# EleGirl, turnera, Blonde . . . Do you want to talk about emo/verb abuse?



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I know that we had some conflict on this on Ella's thread a couple weeks ago. Do you want to talk about it?

If you do, know that I am listening.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Can I have the rights to sell tickets?


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Nice for you to step up and offer help. 

+1 BTW


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

What do you perceive as the conflict, JLD?

ISTM that you are a consistent advocate for active listening and for empathy.

Recently someone on TAM posted a link which really resonated with me. For Empaths and Sensitives Suffering from the Effects of Narcissistic Abuse | Let Me Reach with Kim Saeed I am an empath/sensitive and I married a man without empathy and high on narcissistic traits.

I can tell you that no amount of active listening or empathy directed his way is going to improve the relationship. In fact, empathizing with him (identifying how hurt and broken he must feel deep inside from unresolved childhood baggage) kept me trapped and enabling of his destructive behavior.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Blonde said:


> What do you perceive as the conflict, JLD?
> 
> ISTM that you are a consistent advocate for active listening and for empathy.
> 
> ...


 You desreve better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

JLD, when do you think that active listening does not work?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks for your response, Blonde. I just thought that there might have been some unresolved tension in that thread, and wanted to invite you to share that, if you felt it.

I like that link.

I don't think we need to stop with active listening and empathy. They are tools to uncover root causes, but are not the end of the road. An action plan needs to follow them.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

JLD, 

I think from your experience living in your skin you do not realize how some people who look and sound angry and verbally abusive do not really FEEL angry. The anger works to get them what they want. It controls those around them.

Again, I refer to the "dishes" story in Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books The outburst was a manipulation so that the husband/father would never again be asked to wash the dishes. If I was to respond to such an outburst with "active listening and empathy", ISTM that I would be REWARDING manipulation, angry outburst, control.

My MO (which I keep sharing with Ella) is that unacceptable behavior is met with negative reinforcement- NEVER EVER REWARDED. And vice versa for positive behavior.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> JLD, when do you think that active listening does not work?


If the person is totally shut down. If there is no trust. If their fear is too great to allow them to share.

Again, it is just a tool. It has to be followed up with an action plan.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde, what do you think the appropriate response is to the dishes incident?

I may not be recalling it correctly, but I think that the response is for the mother and children to leave the father.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

The link I posted goes to the page at google books which has the story. I don't recall Bancroft posting a "resolution"

If it was me, now, my off the cuff brainstorm.... I would get visibly angry at him and might tell him that I don't appreciate that behavior and me and the children are going on dishes strike and he can do them for the week. Then I might let the dishes pile up for the week then take the children and leave and tell him to call me when the dishes are done.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

JLD,

I thought you eluded to the fact that you don't think emo/verb abuse is a real thing several times in that dishes thread...

You also eluded to in another thread that maybe Ella was making it up and we only had one side of the story and asked if anyone felt sorry for her husband, because you did.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You are braver than I am, Blonde. When I have been frightened by a man, I have just tried to get away from him as quickly as possible.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> JLD,
> 
> I thought you eluded to the fact that you don't think emo/verb abuse is a real thing several times in that dishes thread...
> 
> You also eluded to in another thread that maybe Ella was making it up and we only had one side of the story and asked if anyone felt sorry for her husband, because you did.


I think it hurts, and I think not giving it power is essential.

I don't think Ella was making anything up. I do think she has narcissistic tendencies. And I do think a divorce would be a kindness to both of them, if one or both cannot be humble and take the first step to truly understand the other.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Blonde said:


> What do you perceive as the conflict, JLD?
> 
> ISTM that you are a consistent advocate for active listening and for empathy.
> 
> ...


Yeah JLD thinks "active listening" can bring world peace, evidently. Makes me go . Doesnt work when your spouse is a jacka$$.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Yeah JLD thinks "active listening" can bring world peace, evidently. Makes me go . Doesnt work when your spouse is a jacka$$.


Yes, I do think it is one of the very best tools for resolving conflict.


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## I'll make tea (Oct 11, 2013)

In ella's case there was a kid involved and the husband repeatedly yelled at her in front of the kid/yelled at the kid over some trifles and wasn'T sorry at all.

Unfortunately that is a very bad example for the child and if she is just understanding her son will just learn that this is how you behave towards a woman.


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## ella1048 (Apr 11, 2013)

jld, 

I've been doing alot of thinking as to how to handle a situation that caused me stress.....I think I wrote about it...a few weeks ago, my H came home early to see me (I worked from home that day, so he was like 30 minutes "early"), then he "announced" that he invited his family over (sister/mother + 2 kids) that they were welcome to come over and have a swim/bbq...

and that he hadn't "heard back yet"...oh, but then looked at his phone, and told me that they "responded" and they'll BE OVER IN 30 MINUTES....(house was not cleaned, etc..)

I was angry.....and should have told him then/there that I didn't like it, etc...

Instead, I acted passive and squirted him in the face w/a squirt gun in the pool and told him it was due to his "waking me up early"...

what I should have done is confronted him....told him that I would appreciate that any/all further "plans" that involve my participation to be run by me first..

I didn't do that.

But, therapy has made me STRONGER

and, knowing full well that tomorrow will be blazing hot in our area, thought that I might anticipate a "repeat performance".

I "asked" my H if he was planning on having his family over tomorrow nite...(he just had them over Saturday, btw)...He said he had "no plans" yet, but WHY???

And I said, "well, I would appreciate a heads up and would like for you to discuss this with me first before you make plans".

He looked at me bewildered and said, "I did tell you, once I found out they were coming"

I said, "You told me they'd be over in 30 minutes...obviously you had a conversation with your sister ahead of time, and you did so w/o talking to me first..."

He didn't deny it...but I was mad and felt like I had to get that off my chest...(this was in front of our child but I did not raise my voice).

He called me at 12 pm to tell me he didn't appreciate my "anger"..., and that it was done "in front of our son" (there have been countless times he has YELLED at me in front of our son)

I said I didn't think I raised my voice and told him so, but agreed I could have taken him aside in private.

I did re-iterate (as per "broken record") that I "didn't like how decisions are being made in this house"...

He said we would "talk about this when he got home"..

I suspect he won't "talk"

I suspect he will "Yell at me"...

I am equipped with a VAR

and know that I don't need to listen to his yelling at me and can go into a private room and have that yelling recorded...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I thought you were heading for a divorce, Ella. Have you changed your mind?

I think examining your conscience is an excellent idea, as with the acting passive and squirting him with the water gun.

Sincere question: Do you want to work things out with your husband? Or do you want to gather evidence of his wrongdoing? What do you plan to do with the evidence?

Put yourself in your husband's shoes. What if he were keeping a secret video camera on you, including that thread on your interest in giving that man French lessons?


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Jld, I think you assume that everyone's goal is peace. And if it is a mutual goal - great - get back in path with active listening techniques. But that isn't everyone's end wish. Some people like the conflict. Some people don't want peace and harmony, they want total control. Some people are so angry they look for a reason to flip out so they can lash out and feel the release from their inner pain and hatred. Letting someone walk all over you does not release that pain and heal them and make them kind and awesome. They don't want that. They need to crush others to feel good. Treating them kindly doesn't get a like response, it fuels the rage or encourages it to happen again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

golfergirl said:


> Jld, I think you assume that everyone's goal is peace. And if it is a mutual goal - great - get back in path with active listening techniques. But that isn't everyone's end wish. Some people like the conflict. Some people don't want peace and harmony, they want total control. Some people are so angry they look for a reason to flip out so they can lash out and feel the release from their inner pain and hatred. Letting someone walk all over you does not release that pain and heal them and make them kind and awesome. They don't want that. They need to crush others to feel good. Treating them kindly doesn't get a like response, it fuels the rage or encourages it to happen again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Active listening is not the end of conflict. An action plan is still needed. 

Golfer, how do you suggest dealing with a person like you describe above?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Active listening with my ex would've only made clearer that he wanted me to know my place as woman, shut the f$ck up, and put out until he got his. But I already knew these things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

"Active listening" does not work in abusive relationships.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> "Active listening" does not work in abusive relationships.


Please elaborate.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Active listening is not the end of conflict. An action plan is still needed.
> 
> Golfer, how do you suggest dealing with a person like you describe above?


Most of the time, especially in the case of NPD, the ONLY thing you can do is leave and go completely no contact. That is not copping out, running away, giving up, being weak, and just to throw you a bone here...not being a "real" man,...it is literally the ONLY thing you can do as there are sometimes where there is no fixing the relationship, no matter how much active listening goes on.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Can't help but think that if one is a master manipulator, active listening is a great way to assure you can control conflicts and outcomes.

I agree when you say it's a tool. It can be used to build bridges, or covertly dig tunnels. Just depends on how it is used.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> Please elaborate.


Why should she have to elaborate on this?? :scratchhead:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Why should she have to elaborate on this?? :scratchhead:


She does not have to. It was an invitation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Can't help but think that if one is a master manipulator, active listening is a great way to assure you can control conflicts and outcomes.
> 
> I agree when you say it's a tool. It can be used to build bridges, or covertly dig tunnels. Just depends on how it is used.


For sure, the person must have sincere intentions. And that is something you have to feel inside.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> Please elaborate.


I've already done this in the other thread (as well as many others). My response is the same. 

Abusers do not have a "goal of peace."

Abusive relationships are not the same as a healthy relationship where this may work. It's a totally different beast.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Most of the time, especially in the case of NPD, the ONLY thing you can do is leave and go completely no contact. That is not copping out, running away, giving up, being weak, and just to throw you a bone here...not being a "real" man,...it is literally the ONLY thing you can do as there are sometimes where there is no fixing the relationship, no matter how much active listening goes on.


Divorce is always an option in America.

If someone is a deeply damaged person, there may be no way to repair the relationship.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> Why should she have to elaborate on this?? :scratchhead:


I don't mind being asked, 3x, but I, along with several others have already explained why it doesn't work to jld. She doesn't understand the abusive relationship dynamic which is why she doesn't get it.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Deejo said:


> Can't help but think that if one is a master manipulator, active listening is a great way to assure you can control conflicts and outcomes.
> 
> I agree when you say it's a tool. It can be used to build bridges, or covertly dig tunnels. Just depends on how it is used.


Ooh I see what you did there. And yes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I've already done this in the other thread (as well as many others). My response is the same.
> 
> Abusers do not have a "goal of peace."
> 
> Abusive relationships are not the same as a healthy relationship where this may work. It's a totally different beast.


The thing is, Jelly, abuse can be pretty broadly defined. 

I have a few BILs that I would call abusers. But having spent some time on TAM, I think I am understanding them a little better. It doesn't excuse their behavior, but I'm not sure that I see them as monsters anymore. And I'm not sure I see my sisters as victims anymore, either.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> For sure, the person must have sincere intentions. And that is something you have to feel inside.


Which goes to the heart of the matter. How can you be assured of intent? Would you know if you are being manipulated if you believe you are pleasing your partner or they are doing 'just enough' to keep you engaged as opposed to looking for the exit?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Which goes to the heart of the matter. How can you be assured of intent? Would you know if you are being manipulated if you believe you are pleasing your partner or they are doing 'just enough' to keep you engaged as opposed to looking for the exit?


You are basically saying, How do you know if this is a good person or not? How do you know if you can trust them?

To me, you have to really listen to your gut. And you have to look at their actions. 

And probably hardest, you have to take an honest look at yourself. Are you open to what this person is saying? Or if it hurts your feelings (often your pride), do you declare them bad or wrong, and just tune them out?

That is not easy for any of us to do.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> The thing is, Jelly, abuse can be pretty broadly defined.
> 
> I have a few BILs that I would call abusers. But having spent some time on TAM, I think I am understanding them a little better. It doesn't excuse their behavior, but I'm not sure that I see them as monsters anymore. And I'm not sure I see my sisters as victims anymore, either.


Well that's exactly what I'm saying. It seems as if you have a different idea of what abuse is.

You explained in the other thread that you saw abuse as cheating, financial cheating, etc. 

Emotional abuse and verbal abuse are very real things.

You simply are operating from a point of view where it seems you don't believe it. And if you don't believe it and/or think it's a real thing, then it's no wonder you would think active listening would work in these types of situations.

It's ironic when dealing with this particular subject because a lot of abusers will try to gaslight their victims saying it's not really happening.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Which goes to the heart of the matter. How can you be assured of intent? Would you know if you are being manipulated if you believe you are pleasing your partner or they are doing 'just enough' to keep you engaged as opposed to looking for the exit?


:iagree:
Active listening can be just going through the motions for some, because they repeat what you say back to you doesn't necessarily mean someone's actually listening to you (or trying to understand where your coming from).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> And probably hardest, you have to take an honest look at yourself. Are you open to what this person is saying? Or if it hurts your feelings (often your pride), do you declare them bad or wrong, and just tune them out?


So someone in a situation where their partner is repeatedly calling them a "b!tch" and a "cvnt" and/or a "good for nothing a$$hole jerk" is not "open" to what that person is telling them?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

JLD, why do you have such an issue about abuse? You act like it doesnt really happen, like people just THINK that it does. Clearly you have never actually BEEN in an emo/verb abusive relationship, or you would realize how much you insult those of us who HAVE been.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> JLD, why do you have such an issue about abuse? You act like it doesnt really happen, like people just THINK that it does.


That is how I read it, too. It's almost like jld tries to deny it's a real thing or is incredulous about it. It's truly strange.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Well that's exactly what I'm saying. It seems as if you have a different idea of what abuse is.
> 
> You explained in the other thread that you saw abuse as cheating, financial cheating, etc.
> 
> ...


What jld has communicated to me through her numerous posts and thoughts on the matter of emotional and verbal abuse is that it is only abuse if you let it be abuse, and if you are a man and let it be abuse, then you are weak, and not a real man. That you should, if you are a man, ignore her words, and really look inwards to find what it is that you, the man are doing to force her to act in the way she is. Women are delicate, yet emotionally unstable creatures, incapable of self control, and it is up to the man to manipulate her emotions and feelings to get the behavior that he wants...anything short, and he is just not doing it right.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> JLD, why do you have such an issue about abuse? You act like it doesnt really happen, like people just THINK that it does. Clearly you have never actually BEEN in an emo/verb abusive relationship, or you would realize how much you insult those of us who HAVE been.


It has been suggested by some that jld is in fact what many would consider an abuser, and it is often difficult for one to see within themselves that which they deny exists.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> So someone in a situation where their partner is repeatedly calling them a "b!tch" and a "cvnt" and/or a "good for nothing a$$hole jerk" is not "open" to what that person is telling them?


You don't have to stay in that situation. I would not.

But if for some reason you want to stay, what would you use that would be as effective as active listening?

Honestly, I think just hearing this repeated back to someone would give them pause. Unless the person were really damaged inside.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> That is how I read it, too. It's almost like jld tries to deny it's a real thing or is incredulous about it. It's truly strange.


Consider jld's own actions in her marriage.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> Honestly, I think just hearing this repeated back to someone would give them pause.


Not with an abuser.

and you also just stated "Are you open to what they are saying?" So in essence once should just be open to being called all those names. 

Meaning you are all over the place with your responses.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> JLD, why do you have such an issue about abuse? You act like it doesnt really happen, like people just THINK that it does. Clearly you have never actually BEEN in an emo/verb abusive relationship, or you would realize how much you insult those of us who HAVE been.


I grew up in an abusive home. I am going to spend this weekend with abusive relatives. The only way I am going to make it is by not taking what they say personally, and practicing active listening.

My relatives are always fighting among themselves. They feel justified and defensive. If I don't listen to them, and try to understand them, who will?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> Not with an abuser.
> 
> and you also just stated "Are you open to what they are saying?" So in essence once should just be open to being called all those names.
> 
> Meaning you are all over the place with your responses.


Let me give an example, jelly. One of the items on the list of signs of emotional abuse that turnera posted was Telling your partner their shortcomings. Personally, I think that could be very helpful. If I cannot hear that from my partner, I can miss out on improving my life.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Double dip.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> Let me give an example, jelly. One of the items on the list of signs of emotional abuse that turnera posted was Telling your partner their shortcomings. Personally, I think that could be very helpful. If I cannot hear that from my partner, I can miss out on improving my life.


She didn't mean it in the way that you tell someone something with the intent of being kind. Emotional abuse is an endless badgering where someone is constantly tell you how sh*tty you are and how much you suck.

Again, you don't seem to get it. And that's fine. It's just you don't understand so you can't comprehend.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> She didn't mean it in the way that you tell someone something with the intent of being kind. Emotional abuse is an endless badgering where someone is constantly tell you how sh*tty you are and how much you suck.
> 
> Again, you don't seem to get it. And that's fine. It's just you don't understand so you can't comprehend.


Clearly JLD needs to stay away from threads posted by those who are in abusive situations. She doesnt get it. 

And JLD, why in the world are you putting yourself in the middle of abusive relatives?? :scratchhead:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> She didn't mean it in the way that you tell someone something with the intent of being kind. Emotional abuse is an endless badgering where someone is constantly tell you how sh*tty you are and how much you suck.
> 
> Again, you don't seem to get it. And that's fine. It's just you don't understand so you can't comprehend.


That was not clear to me. Thanks for explaining that.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Here's something from a site about personality disorders that discusses the dangers of using reflective listening with a person who is delusional (and most full blown PD's are definitely delusional). While this addresses it in counseling specifically, you can see immediately why it doesn't work between individuals, either. From here: http://outofthefog.net/Treatment.html

(quote)

"Many forms of couple’s therapy come under criticism for being ineffective and prone to manipulation by the personality-disordered individual. *Therapists who treat personality-disordered patients as merely having communication difficulties, needing validation without acknowledgement of the underlying mental illness or confrontation of the abusive behavior are generally ineffective.*

*Many psychotherapists assume a validating advisory role rather than an assertive or intervening role with their clients, which can be counter-productive when addressing a relationship between a non-personality-disordered individual and a personality-disordered individual. It can easily be manipulated by the person with the personality disorder into a means of controlling the non-personality-disordered individual.*

*A common scenario is where the therapist offers both disputing parties validation of their feelings - which can be misrepresented by the personality-disordered individual as an endorsement of their position or support of their abusive behavior. This is usually followed by a suggestion from the therapist that both parties make some sort of compromise, meet in the middle somewhere. This approach makes perfect sense when both parties are rational, reasonable individuals who just have competing interests.
*
*However, in the typical PD-Non-PD relationship, both parties are not rational, logical individuals. *What usually happens is that the non-personality-disordered individual yields ground (while increasing their level of resentment) while the personality-disordered individual makes a verbal commitment to yielding ground which is not followed through on or maintained over a significant period of time.

The result can be a short-term appearance of progress with a long-term return to the old roles when the deal is broken. This increases disillusionment for the non-personality-disordered individual and an overall increase in resentment. They have yielded ground on something that was important to them and lost one of their bargaining chips because the personality-disordered individual has gone to therapy and can thus argue that this proves that they are “working on it”. *Even worse, some of the confessions of their feelings made in therapy can be turned into weapons which are subsequently used against them.*

*It can also be frustrating and confusing for a non-personality-disordered individual in couples or family therapy with a personality-disordered individual to witness a therapist validating a personality-disordered individual’s dissociative memories. Sometimes the non-personality-disordered individual is characterized as stubborn for refusing to validate or agree to memories, beliefs or events that the non-personality-disordered individual knows or believes to be exaggerated, distorted or false. The non-personality-disordered individual is cornered into a defensive posture, afraid that the therapist will believe the unflattering stories about them and afraid that the personality-disordered individual will use the validation as encouragement to fabricate more.*"

(end quote)


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Clearly JLD needs to stay away from threads posted by those who are in abusive situations. She doesnt get it.
> 
> And JLD, why in the world are you putting yourself in the middle of abusive relatives?? :scratchhead:


Because they invited me, and I have not seen them in four years. 

And all the time on TAM has made me grow. I can handle conflict better than I could before. I don't take everything right to heart, and cry, and just get all upset. I have learned that the things people say and do have more to do with them than they do with me.

I don't feel powerless anymore. I know now that when I let people upset me, it is because I am giving them that power. I don't have to do that.

And I want to test out my new skills this weekend. I want to see how much stronger I am now than in the past. If I can keep my composure, I will gain more trust in myself. And I can also be an example to my relatives.

Ultimately, I don't want to be a prisoner to my fears anymore.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

FW, I've tried to explain to jld that active listening will not work with a person with a PD. It does not compute with her. I'm only a BPD'er though, what would I know about what would work with me?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Sigh. Why even bother. Life is far too short to spend it trying to convince a brick wall to become an open window.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> Sigh. Why even bother. Life is far too short to spend it trying to convince a brick wall to become an open window.


:iagree: Amen and QFT


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Consider jld's own actions in her marriage.


:rofl:


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Jld I don't know if you are trying to not understand on purpose or are so focused on what works for you. I'm glad active listening worked in your relationship but it doesn't work for everyone. It can seriously put someone in extreme danger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> You are basically saying, How do you know if this is a good person or not? How do you know if you can trust them?
> 
> To me, you have to really listen to your gut. And you have to look at their actions.
> 
> ...


Which to me, is one of the seminal points that can so easily be overlooked on the boards. Sometimes, your gut can be wrong.

The forums are FULL of people that thought they had a 'good' spouse ... right up until they discovered they; have another family overseas, are sleeping with your best friend, have been having an affair under your nose for the last 3 years, are addicted to very disturbing forms of pornography, etc ...

You THINK you are doing everything right. Listening, processing, understanding, mirroring, giving, nurturing ... and then it is as if someone lifts the blinders; you're partner gives the _appearance_ of reciprocating those things, but they truly aren't, nor importantly, do they have any interest in doing so.

That's when you feel like you have had your feet pulled out from under you, and you can't catch your breath.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

golfergirl said:


> Jld I don't know if you are trying to not understand on purpose or are so focused on what works for you. I'm glad active listening worked in your relationship but it doesn't work for everyone. It can seriously put someone in extreme danger.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Extreme danger? From trying to understand them?

It doesn't end with active listening. There needs to be a follow up action plan.

What I understood from FW's article is that the non PD can feel frustrated by the lack of action on the part of the PD. They can feel like the PD did a snow job on the counselor, and said they were really trying, when they were not.

People are free to divorce if they want to. If they really believe they cannot trust their partner, and never will be able to, they might want to seriously consider it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> Which to me, is one of the seminal points that can so easily be overlooked on the boards. Sometimes, your gut can be wrong.
> 
> The forums are FULL of people that thought they had a 'good' spouse ... right up until they discovered they; have another family overseas, are sleeping with your best friend, have been having an affair under your nose for the last 3 years, are addicted to very disturbing forms of pornography, etc ...
> 
> ...


Can we ever really be sure, Deejo? Of anything?

We try to look at the facts, or actions, and we weigh our feelings into the mix. But as sure as we are, we can be surprised.


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> Can we ever really be sure, Deejo? Of anything?
> 
> We try to look at the facts, or actions, and we weigh our feelings into the mix. But as sure as we are, we can be surprised.


We can be sure that we'll delude ourselves of our certainty.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Duguesclin said:


> :rofl:


You may not be abused, but let there be no doubt that Job can't hold a candle to you when it comes to patience.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

jld said:


> You are braver than I am, Blonde. When I have been frightened by a man, I have just tried to get away from him as quickly as possible.



OK but what if he's faster than you are?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> No JLD, they don't just "feel" that the PD did a snow job.
> 
> The PD can be delusional. FOR REAL delusional, not just "misunderstood". It can be akin to doing reflective listening with a drunk person....they aren't talking about reality, they are talking about their state of intoxication. In no circumstance should a sober person validate a drunk person's reality if it isn't REAL. This is dangerous for both parties.
> 
> ...


I asked my therapist and the psychologist at the hospital. Both said No way! 

I do think it happens, btw. I know a mom here in town whose son was molested by his dad. They saw a marriage counselor who did not pick up on it. Then, after her son told her about what his dad was doing to him, she filed for divorce, and I believe, had him arrested. The psychologist who saw him said he was a sociopath. He was very clever at hiding it.

Turns out he had molested a hundred kids over the years.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OK but what if he's faster than you are?


I meant in a relationship. I even mean in my family, trying to stay away from the men who scared me.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

jld said:


> The thing is, Jelly, abuse can be pretty broadly defined.
> 
> I have a few BILs that I would call abusers. But having spent some time on TAM, I think I am understanding them a little better. It doesn't excuse their behavior, but I'm not sure that I see them as monsters anymore. And I'm not sure I see my sisters as victims anymore, either.


My take is this - yes charges of emotional abuse can be leveled at anyone we feel like, no question. On a scale of 1 to 10, where 10 is intense emotional abuse, and 1 is an annoying comment here or there or raising one's voice a bit too often, I think of something like this for a 10:

_my god you are disgusting! I can't believe I made the mistake of marrying you, or even having sex with you. Sometimes I look at you and can barely keep my food down. I wish I could cut you loose but I'm damn sure no one else would want you and I'd have to pay for your care and feeding the rest of my fvking life!!_ .........voice volume rising with expression of wild rage at the very end...

so that's what it is in its purest form. An example anyway. the abuser might only explode like that once every week, or every few weeks. In between bursts things might seem OK in the marriage, maybe even happy/fun. but over the years the ego of the abused is sliced up pretty good by this. One could not be better brainwashed even if they were to spend the same number of years in a gulag, I don't think. It is serious abuse, every bit as bad as physical abuse...arguably worse..


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> What jld has communicated to me through her numerous posts and thoughts on the matter of emotional and verbal abuse is that it is only abuse if you let it be abuse, and if you are a man and let it be abuse, then you are weak, and not a real man. That you should, if you are a man, ignore her words, and really look inwards to find what it is that you, the man are doing to force her to act in the way she is. Women are delicate, yet emotionally unstable creatures, incapable of self control, and it is up to the man to manipulate her emotions and feelings to get the behavior that he wants...anything short, and he is just not doing it right.


My impression of how JLD sees what many of use would call abuse is that she not only thinks the above about men, but about women as well. Basically that it's not abuse. It's just that the person we would call abusive is misunderstood and if only their spouse would use active listening it will quiet the beast, the "abuse" would stop and they would live happily ever after... if only the victimized person would stop being narcissistic/self-absorbed and just actively listen to the yeller/insulter/abuser.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jld said:


> I asked my therapist and the psychologist at the hospital. Both said No way!
> 
> I do think it happens, btw. I know a mom here in town whose son was molested by his dad. They saw a marriage counselor who did not pick up on it. Then, after her son told her about what his dad was doing to him, she filed for divorce, and I believe, had him arrested. The psychologist who saw him said he was a sociopath. He was very clever at hiding it.
> 
> Turns out he had molested a hundred kids over the years.


Most people with PD's are not sociopaths, most are not going to commit heinous crimes. PD's are very serious but do not always exhibit violent or deviant tendencies. The main thing they all exhibit is dissociation. REAL dissociation, where delusions can step in...not just the denial that non-PD's can have.

Anyway...I really don't think it is wise for you to continue insisting that you know what it is like for people with problems different than yours...you clearly do not understand the differences. You literally aren't active listening to the people here you are telling to use active listening.

It makes you come across as someone who truly DOESN'T listen...which is very ironic, given how important listening is to you.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Because they invited me, and I have not seen them in four years.
> 
> And all the time on TAM has made me grow. I can handle conflict better than I could before. I don't take everything right to heart, and cry, and just get all upset. I have learned that the things people say and do have more to do with them than they do with me.
> 
> ...


These are people who you rarely see. Your life is not entwined with them. You do not depend on them for much of anything nor they on you.

This is an entirely different situation.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jld said:


> The thing is, Jelly, abuse can be pretty broadly defined.
> 
> I have a few BILs that I would call abusers. But having spent some time on TAM, I think I am understanding them a little better. It doesn't excuse their behavior, but I'm not sure that I see them as monsters anymore. And I'm not sure I see my sisters as victims anymore, either.


A saying that I learned during my recovery is 










True for adults in a free country. 

Another thing you tell people, JLD, is "you have power". In an abusive relationship, it doesn't feel like one has any power. Recovery involves *reclaiming my power* to make adult decisions for myself and my children guilt free and *finding my voice.* to express my anger when my boundaries are violated.

Your sisters need to reclaim their power and find their voices and hold their husbands accountable for unacceptable behavior.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's something from a site about personality disorders that discusses the dangers of using reflective listening with a person who is delusional (and most full blown PD's are definitely delusional). While this addresses it in counseling specifically, you can see immediately why it doesn't work between individuals, either. From here: Out of the FOG - Treatment
> 
> (quote)
> 
> ...


:iagree:

a high-functioning individual with a PD would have a hay day manipulating couples counseling of this kind. the first thing they would do is turn on their charm and get the (opposite sex especially) counselor to like them. see them as just your average decent person looking to improve their family and blah blah blah........they are often world class actors, in a very real sense. They are not human, but they can act the part.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

jld said:


> I meant in a relationship. I even mean in my family, trying to stay away from the men who scared me.


and i was teasing you.....a little bit 


JLD here's how I view people with personality disorders. I think of them in the exact opposite way I think of you. I think you can do no wrong (in my eyes). whereas they.....you get my drift. My suggestion is that all interested posters here rent and/or watch _Leave Her to Heaven_ (1945). that will give you an idea of what some of us are talking about.....


----------



## Created2Write (Aug 25, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> She didn't mean it in the way that you tell someone something with the intent of being kind. Emotional abuse is an endless badgering where someone is constantly tell you how sh*tty you are and how much you suck.
> 
> Again, you don't seem to get it. And that's fine. It's just you don't understand so you can't comprehend.


I agree. 

I'm lucky in that I've not had to deal with physical, emotional or verbal abuse in my life, but my husband did growing up. His father was verbally abusive(like his mother) and, on one occasion, physically abusive. I, personally, don't think the abuse was intentional...it was what he knew growing up. My MIL, who also came from a verbally abusive family, allowed the abuse to take place. "Listening" doesn't protect oneself or one's children. When the line of abuse is crossed, the time for listening has come and gone. It's now time to get help. To this day my husband doesn't see what he endured as verbal abuse, even though it still effects our marriage in big ways.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Blonde said:


> A saying that I learned during my recovery is
> 
> True for adults in a free country.
> 
> ...


:iagree: What I think that discussions with JLD are missing is that abuse is not a one time event. It’s a life pattern used by some people to control those over whom they want control. It generally starts out slowly, it happens on a cyclic pattern and usually escalates very slowly over a long time. Over time the victim’s defenses are slowly eroded.

We are humans are programmed to form a bond and create a family group even when there is abuse. If humans had not been programmed to do this, we would probably be extinct. Think of the tribes who used to raid other tribes to steal females. They forced the kidnapped females to breed and raise children with their male kidnappers. Over time the kidnapped females had to find a way to live through this to protect and raise their children. The women did not usually try to escape for two reasons. If they returned to their tribe of origin they were either killed or ostracized (a fate worse than death). And if they tried to escape their kidnappers would beat them, perhaps kill them or throw them away in the wild with no way to care for themselves. Because of this humans, especially women are programmed to find a way to survive, not matter what, living with others who do not have their best interest at heart. We call this the abuse syndrome and/or Stockholm Syndrome. 

I agree with JLD that at some point in time the victim can become a participant. But a person can only be a participant in their own abuse if they can get the counseling/therapy to break way emotionally and if they do have a way to escape. 

Not everyone who is abused can get this help. Some really are stuck because the only option they have is to live on the streets with their children.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> 
> a high-functioning individual with a PD would have a hay day manipulating couples counseling of this kind. the first thing they would do is turn on their charm and get the (opposite sex especially) counselor to like them. see them as just your average decent person looking to improve their family and blah blah blah........they are often world class actors, in a very real sense. They are not human, but they can act the part.


So, I'm not human? Thanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

pidge70 said:


> So, I'm not human? Thanks.


I can understand you objecting to being called non-human.

I think that the poster did not use their words right. My take on what was said is that a lot of people with PD do not have the emotional response that most non-PD people would.


----------



## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Pidge I'm sure that wasn't towards you. You are self-aware and awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Extreme danger? From trying to understand them?
> 
> It doesn't end with active listening. There needs to be a follow up action plan.
> 
> ...


And will you concede that the woman IS sometimes the problem, that the woman IS sometimes broken and not fixable within the confines of the marriage? That some women are just not fixable by any man out there? That sometimes it really has nothing to do with the man not active listening enough, that sometimes a woman's behaviour IS just plain nuts, and not a response to anything he as done wrong to her? That sometimes a man leaving a woman is a sign of strength and not weakness?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> And will you concede that the woman IS sometimes the problem, that the woman IS sometimes broken and not fixable within the confines of the marriage? That some women are just not fixable by any man out there? That sometimes it really has nothing to do with the man not active listening enough, that sometimes a woman's behaviour IS just plain nuts, and not a response to anything he as done wrong to her? That sometimes a man leaving a woman is a sign of strength and not weakness?


It is hard for me to give up hope, Sam. I want to believe in humanity.

I know some people are evil. I know there is no goodness in them. But I don't want to believe it is that widespread.

I want to believe that people have had damaging experiences, but that they are salvageable. I do believe in active listening to find out deeper causes of behavior. I really do believe that if we can reach the heart, and truly understand people, we can facilitate their healing.

If I just offer sympathy, I am not sure I am helping. I think giving people empowering ideas is more helpful. But maybe I need to include more sympathy.

And yes, sometimes we have to say, I am not the person you need in your life. I cannot meet your needs. I am going to leave, so that the person who can meet your needs can enter.

That, to me, is the path of peace. It is not the path of bitterness, and resentment, and defensiveness. It frees both people to move forward.

ETA: I think Uptown has chosen that path. I have not read all of his posts, so I may be wrong. But he did not sound angry in the posts I have read. He sounds sad to me, and weary, but not angry. He seemed accepting.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> So, I'm not human? Thanks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I did not mean to infer that all individuals with any degree of p disorder are not human. Remind me - are you BPD? 

Do you consider the psychopath to be human? Technically they are. But in most important ways they are not.....IMO
My former DIL is a pretty mean type of NPD. I think she is capable of anything, including murder. To me, she is not human.

That is what I'm talking about.


----------



## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> :rofl:



http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/192194-im-tired-trying-37.html#post9484818


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/192194-im-tired-trying-37.html#post9484882

Just so this is not taken out of context.

The following to quoted from the thread "I'm tired of trying"

Page 37 Post #545
"John, let me soften all this . . .

John, my husband's need for affection and attention is much lower than mine. He is gone most of the time. And I have been thinking very hard about how I react to his denials of attention to me, per the emasculation thread.

I don't have to scream and call names and say bad words. I am not really powerless in the relationship. I simply was giving him my power, and expecting him to give me the reaction I wanted. And getting frustrated when I did not get it.

I can own my power. I can tell him what I feel, using I statements. His reaction is up to him. I am not going to react, or punish him in any way. I am simply going to be very clear with my feelings.

I get frustrated with dh when I cannot control the outcome, i.e., get what I want. I may still feel frustration, but then I just need to remind myself of what I am grateful for in the relationship. And just keep expressing what I want.

That is the kind of person I want to be. I don't enjoy getting all upset. And I have the power to control my own behavior, and to reset the direction of my thoughts.

I am all in in this marriage. I am not going anywhere. I might as well make it the best possible marriage I can. I can focus on myself and what I am bringing to it."



Page 37 Post #546
"Great, I like to hear this! No more screaming. The day is starting well !"


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> And will you concede that the woman IS sometimes the problem, that the woman IS sometimes broken and not fixable within the confines of the marriage? That some women are just not fixable by any man out there? That sometimes it really has nothing to do with the man not active listening enough, that sometimes a woman's behaviour IS just plain nuts, and not a response to anything he as done wrong to her? That sometimes a man leaving a woman is a sign of strength and not weakness?




NO


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde said:


> A saying that I learned during my recovery is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know it doesn't feel like they have any power. That is why I think it is so important to show people how they do have power. I don't think anyone is served by victimhood mentality.

Ele, I definitely think mental health services are important. I would like to see more people avail themselves of them. 

And I don't know one therapist who has not advocated for empowerment. They always seem to be encouraging people to look at how they can take more charge of their lives, and not feel like they are at the mercy of forces beyond their control.

And sometimes we are at the mercy of those forces. And sometimes we are where we are because of the choices we have made.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

jld,

I'm afraid you are sadly misguided with this "active listening" mantra for ALL communication problems.

I was married for 20 years to an emotionally abusive, passive aggressive a$$hole. He would chew up your "active listening" and spit it back out in the most vile way, using reverse psychology and "twisting" active listening until I was so confused I didn't know WHAT I actually said.

Where did you learn that this is the answer to everything?  

I personally CAN'T STAND when someone repeats everything I've just said back to me. I feel like they are patronizing me. Makes me feel like a 6-year-old.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> It is hard for me to give up hope, Sam. I want to believe in humanity.
> 
> I know some people are evil. I know there is no goodness in them. But I don't want to believe it is that widespread.
> 
> ...


What you seem to be refusing to accept is that many times, the whole reaching the heart thing does not and cannot happen. That is reality. And you come across as very combative to those here dealing with that exact reality. So you figured out how to make your relationship work, and thats great, but for so many, this cannot happen because of the other person in the equation. People seeking advice here are not looking for more conflict in their lives, they already have more than they can deal with. Stop making them feel like crap because they arent you, and that YOUR way doesnt work for them. 



jld said:


> ETA: I think Uptown has chosen that path. I have not read all of his posts, so I may be wrong. But he did not sound angry in the posts I have read. He sounds sad to me, and weary, but not angry. He seemed accepting.


Uptown got out. He realized that he could not be her savior, so he became his own. He saved the only person he possibly could..himself. And no, he never sounds angry or bitter. He tried for a long time, if I remember right, and we dont all have his kind of perseverance to take those daily emotional beatings for very long. And thats ok, we shouldnt have to, and no one should tell us that we should.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> jld,
> 
> I'm afraid you are sadly misguided with this "active listening" mantra for ALL communication problems.
> 
> ...


 :iagree: OMG, YES! This!


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> jld,
> 
> I'm afraid you are sadly misguided with this "active listening" mantra for ALL communication problems.
> 
> ...


You can also paraphrase or use open ended questions.

I certainly did not make up active listening. I feel like I read about it regularly, though, as a way to deal with, yes, many if not most communication problems. Empathy seems to be pretty heavily promoted for resolving conflict.

I first came across it in The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, in the early 90s.

If you don't recommend empathy and active listening for resolving conflict, what do you recommend?


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

jld said:


> If you don't recommend empathy and active listening for resolving conflict, what do you recommend?


A CONVERSATION... where one person says something and the other person gives a thoughtful, original reply. Not a one-sided monologue where someone is parroting everything I've just said back to me!

You came across "active listening" in the 90s. Many therapists today are ditching active listening in favor of other "tools" because it's not all it's cracked up to be. It just makes people angry. Like this thread.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> A CONVERSATION... where one person says something and the other person gives a thoughtful, original reply. Not a one-sided monologue where someone is parroting everything I've just said back to me!
> 
> You came across "active listening" in the 90s. Many therapists today are ditching active listening in favor of other "tools" because it's not all it's cracked up to be. It just makes people angry. Like this thread.


Okay, what are the other tools? I still read about it regularly.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

jld,

I usually find your posts to be positive and uplifting. But this one (surprising to me) has passive aggressiveness buried behind your guise of "active listening." I honestly believe your intention to "talk it over" with EleGirl, Blonde, Turnera, and others was a veiled attempt to provoke yet another disagreement. 

"Active listeners" often stir the pot, then raise their hands and say, "I don't understand why everyone is so upset!"

Just my honest opinion 

Bowing out of this thread now. I am getting stressed out from it.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> jld,
> 
> I usually find your posts to be positive and uplifting. But this one (surprising to me) has passive aggressiveness buried behind your guise of "active listening." I honestly believe your intention to "talk it over" with EleGirl, Blonde, Turnera, and others was a veiled attempt to provoke yet another disagreement.
> 
> ...


Before you go, can you explain the passive aggressive part?


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

jld said:


> Before you go, can you explain the passive aggressive part?


Yes, the title and your first post in this thread comes across as a "friendly chat" to resolve issues from another thread. But it's not really a friendly chat at all, it's a chance for you to push your "active listening" agenda. And instead of resolution, you've managed to basically rile up the same people (and others) again.

That's all. No hard feelings. I simply disagree with your premise.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

So I am an empathy pusher. That is true, I hope.

I really did want to talk to those three gals. They are older and experienced in life. We can always agree to disagree, but it would be interesting to talk to them, since I did not think we got to that point before.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Okay, what are the other tools? I still read about it regularly.


Active listening is only one tool. It only works in some situations. 

It does not work with a person who is abusive because abuse is about control. Abusers do not want to be understood. An abuser is not going to give up their control without a huge like altering experience.

Abusers see the world in terms of a power struggle. They become experts at the art of stretching a grain of truth and exploiting it. The purse is to gain power/control over their target by keeping them in a perpetual state of self-doubt by exposing real and imagined character flaws. These flaws the made to be the reason for all relationship problems and can only be fixed if the very flawed victim would just correct their own flaws.

There is no amount of active listening in that will get an abuser to give up their power.


----------



## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I think...

I've had three broken eye sockets.

Countless broken ribs.

Collar bone and radius fractures. Femur fragments with posts of steel implants.

ALL in the name of Love.

"Active listening"?

I'm not hearing you.

Ever.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Makes sense. You were beaten by your husbands, right, Ele? I am really glad you left them.

Certainly, anyone is free to leave, at any time, for any reason. That is the reality of no fault divorce.

But the abuse list that turnera gave looked pretty loose to me. There was no stipulation given that the shortcomings mentioned to a spouse had to have been given with malevolent intentions. It just said mentioning shortcomings as part of the list, as I recall.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Revamped said:


> I think...
> 
> I've had three broken eye sockets.
> 
> ...


So glad you got out, Revamped. And so sorry it happened.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> Yes, the title and your first post in this thread comes across as a "friendly chat" to resolve issues from another thread. But it's not really a friendly chat at all, it's a chance for you to push your "active listening" agenda. And instead of resolution, you've managed to basically rile up the same people (and others) again.
> 
> That's all. No hard feelings. I simply disagree with your premise.


:iagree: again. I think the thread was for attention and it worked.

One size does NOT fit all when it comes to relationships, communication and conflict resolution. To think otherwise is closed minded and narrow thinking.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It seems like empathy is key to resolving conflicts:

Conflict Issues | Resolution Mediation

I am surprised this is even considered controversial.

Certainly, some situations require the partners separate immediately. But sometimes empathy can resolve more minor problems. Why not try?


----------



## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

jld said:


> So glad you got out, Revamped. And so sorry it happened.


Yeah, just imagine what HE looked like.

I can scrap with the best of them. And even WIN. At all costs.:lol:

But at the end of the day...

What DID I really win?

That's my point. Some fights win, some lose and there IS some fights to never get in to.

The Wisdom To Know The Difference.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Certainly, anyone is free to leave, at any time, for any reason. That is the reality of no fault divorce.


While the law says that with no fault anyone can file at any time. It’s not true that anyone can leave at any time. 
I could not leave my son’s father, who was emotionally and physically abusive. The reason I could not leave is because the first time I filed for divorce I had moved out with our son for our safety. The judge who had a thing about always siding with men ordered that our son be returned to live with his father. The judge also had the divorce filing sealed because she said that she would not allow my accusations of physical abuse to be public record because my husband was a doctor. I moved back in with my husband as I would not leave a 3 year old to live with an abusive man. It took me another 4 years before I could file for divorce and be sure that I would have primary custody of my son and that the court would pay attention to the fact that my husband is an abusive man. 

No, not all people can just leave when they choose. Things can be a lot more complicated.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> It seems like empathy is key to resolving conflicts:
> 
> Conflict Issues | Resolution Mediation
> 
> ...


No one is saying that active listening and empathy does not work sometimes.

What people are saying is that they do not work in certain situations, especially with abusive people.

Do you really think that no one has already tried empathy and active listening? The point is that it was tired and it DID NOT WORK>


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

So the courts do not always side with the woman, unlike what we hear.

And there may have been some bias in favor of the partner with more education and higher income, too.

I totally understand why you stayed, Ele. I would not want to leave a child with a man like that, either.

How did you cope, mentally?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> No one is saying that active listening and empathy does not work sometimes.
> 
> What people are saying is that they do not work in certain situations, especially with abusive people.
> 
> Do you really think that no one has already tried empathy and active listening? The point is that it was tired and it DID NOT WORK>


And I was pretty clear in that thread that I did not advise it for physical abuse, sexual or financial infidelity, or substance abuse. Emotional and verbal abuse is where I thought it could work. 

And maybe if they are too severe, it could not. But I think it could be worth a try. Ella tried it once with her husband, and she said he was more affectionate afterwards.


----------



## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Title IV provisions.

It makes sure nobody wins. Especially children.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> So the courts do not always side with the woman, unlike what we hear.
> 
> And there may have been some bias in favor of the partner with more education and higher income, too.
> 
> ...


When I moved back in after the judge pulled her stunt I told him that it was my home. I would not be mistreated. If he ever hit/hurt me again I'd call 911. He still did a lot of emotional abusive things, shaving, pushing, etc but nothing that left bruises or any marks. He was very careful.

It helped that he was at the end of medical school and then residency... he was not around a lot of the time. 

I got into counseling and learned a lot about how to deal with his anger, and verbal/physical abuse. That's when I learned to use the "STOP" safe word that I suggest people use. 

When I saw a chance to leave with my son, I took it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Revamped said:


> Title IV provisions.
> 
> It makes sure nobody wins. Especially children.


Can you explain?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

So glad you got out, Ele. Did the next husband beat you, too? I think you said he would not get a job, but I don't remember if he was physically abusive, too.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> And I was pretty clear in that thread that I did not advise it for physical abuse, sexual or financial infidelity, or substance abuse. Emotional and verbal abuse is where I thought it could work.


If it's really emotional abuse, no it will not work because the goal of emotional abuse is to control the victim/target.

If it's just someone who is upset with bad coping skills then it might work.

Often it takes a counselor to figure out which is which.



jld said:


> And maybe if they are too severe, it could not. But I think it could be worth a try. Ella tried it once with her husband, and she said he was more affectionate afterwards.


Ella would need to try it a lot more than once. He will not go to counseling with her and will not work with her. So she's kinda stuck with a guy who wants to dominate and do a lot of yelling. What he's doing is apparently working for him since he won't work on things.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ele, don't counselors always stress that you are in control of your own thoughts? Isn't that how they convince people to leave abusers? By helping them free themselves mentally first?

I think both Ella and her husband have bad coping skills. I think that marriage could be saved, with some leadership and humility on the part of either one. I think that would get the ball rolling. 

Ella just happens to be the one here. I would tell her husband the same thing.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

The Federal Government really doesn't care about you. Or your problems. They care about the cut they get off of the split of your husband and YOU. A 2% rise in his CS? Sure, he has to carry the burden to care for his children, but a FEE to do So? No...

No wonder men have financial difficulties. CS? No problem. Fees? Yes, an issue they will never pay enough of. They're always behind. And you wonder why men are bitter about CS. It's a never ending story...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> So glad you got out, Ele. Did the next husband beat you, too? I think you said he would not get a job, but I don't remember if he was physically abusive, too.


I seldom talk about it but I've actually been married 3 times. The first was a 22. He was physically abusive. We were married for 4 years. He had a brain aneurism on our first anniversary. After brain surgery he come out a very different person due to brain damage. He was frustrated and angry because he was not who he used to be. So over time he because abusive. It was not all the time. There as pushing/shoving. One time to slammed my head into a coffee table. I had a blood red eye for weeks, buses, etc. I left him then at one point he showed up at my place and tried to kill me with a straight razor. I was lucky in that his cousin came buy and knocked at the door. The distraction gave me a window to escape. It was the last time I saw him.

Then at 35 I married the doctor. I forgot to mention above that the 'good' doctor was also a serial cheater. I found this out just before I left him. That was no fun.

Then at 50 I married again to a guy with a 6 figure job and custody of his 2 children. He never raised his voice at me. He has never hit me. He did cheat. He also lost his job with IBM in one of their huge layoffs. He's never worked since then. Just played computer games and surfed the web. I raised his kids, was the bread winner etc. I consider him to be emotionally abusive is a very subtle sort of way.. very passive aggressive.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jld said:


> Ele, don't counselors always stress that you are in control of your own thoughts? Isn't that how they convince people to leave abusers? By helping them free themselves mentally first?
> 
> I think both Ella and her husband have bad coping skills. I think that marriage could be saved, with some leadership and humility on the part of either one. I think that would get the ball rolling.
> 
> Ella just happens to be the one here. I would tell her husband the same thing.


Having bad coping skills and being a abuser can be two very different things.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That is quite a load. Jumping out of a window. My goodness.

The third one you divorced, too, right? I would not want to support someone who played video games all day, either. And he cheated on you, besides.

You have been through a lot, Ele.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TiggyBlue said:


> Having bad coping skills and being a abuser can be two very different things.


That is what I was thinking. I think more active listening could help Ella. It helped her once, and I think it could help her again.

I guess I am the only one, but I think Ella's situation is fixable. It would take a lot of patience, and communication, but I think there is hope there.

Or she can divorce. That is certainly an option.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Ele, don't counselors always stress that you are in control of your own thoughts? Isn't that how they convince people to leave abusers? By helping them free themselves mentally first?


Yes they do this. What they do not do is to tell people to just stay in the same room and let a person yell at them, insult them, etc. That is considered abuse and they advise/teach a person to leave the presence of a person who does this.

They actually go further and help a person recognize the cues that indicate that things are about to explode. Once a person can recognize this they can stop the interaction before it even gets close to an angry outburst.

An example of this is that when the exDoc would be in a mood that he needed the release of an angry outburst he had a particular way of holding his lips. They were taught like in a sick, sarcastic smile. I came to realize that this happened every time. IT became clear that his outbursts were not a reaction to anything. They were planned. So when I saw that sick smile I would just get out of Dodge. 

People who are abusive use the outbursts to not only control the other person but to raise the chemicals in their brains. A good angry outburst coupled with the feeling of power/control they get causes brain their brain to produce high levels of feel-good chemicals. This is one of the reasons that they do the behavior on a cycle. When the chemicals reside they need a new burst to feel good and in control again. Part of the anger management classes/counseling is to teach these people how to find healthier ways to up the good chemicals in their brain. 

I was actually able to get the exDoc to do this. I pushed him to go do something physical when I’d sue the “STOP” safe word. It got to the point that when I said “ST OP”, he’d just grab his bike and be gone for an hour or so. It helped.


jld said:


> I think both Ella and her husband have bad coping skills. I think that marriage could be saved, with some leadership and humility on the part of either one. I think that would get the ball rolling.


I agree. But he has to be on board as well.


jld said:


> Ella just happens to be the one here. I would tell her husband the same thing.


I also agree with this approach.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> That is quite a load. Jumping out of a window. My goodness.


No.. not jump out of a window. A "window of escape" meaning a chance to escape. I ran out the front door as his cousin was coming in it.



jld said:


> The third one you divorced, too, right? I would not want to support someone who played video games all day, either. And he cheated on you, besides..


Yea I divorced him too. 

My man picker is obviously broken. But that's another thread.



jld said:


> You have been through a lot, Ele.


And I've had a lot of good in my life too.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Ele, don't counselors always stress that you are in control of your own thoughts? Isn't that how they convince people to leave abusers? By helping them free themselves mentally first?
> 
> I think both Ella and her husband have bad coping skills. I think that marriage could be saved, with some leadership and humility on the part of either one. I think that would get the ball rolling.
> 
> Ella just happens to be the one here. I would tell her husband the same thing.


thought about this some more. Even the most abusive person can respond to active listening and empathy at times. So it working once is not telling of anything.

It's hard to tell with Ella because we don't get to talk to her husband. But I don't see anything on his part to even recognize her as someone he cares about. He's just seems to want to control things, put her down and is a KISA for his family (not Ella). These are all signs of an abusive/narcissist type personality.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wow, you really were able to retrain him. I am still glad you left him, though.

My therapist said it was fine that DH stayed in the room. I asked her because I had seen it written here and in another forum that men should leave the room if their wife started yelling at them. 

Gosh, we were shocked when we read that. We both strongly believe that that's when a woman needs her husband most, when she's at her weakest emotionally.

She said if he could handle it, it's not a problem. She did say she thought most men could not handle it. She seemed to think it was great that dh could, and that he could use the active listening with me.

I could ask her, but I think the concern is that the fight could escalate or even become violent if one person does not leave.

Dh says if a man cannot handle it, he should leave the room.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> thought about this some more. Even the most abusive person can respond to active listening and empathy at times. So it working once is not telling of anything.
> 
> It's hard to tell with Ella because we don't get to talk to her husband. But I don't see anything on his part to even recognize her as someone he cares about. He's just seems to want to control things, put her down and is a KISA for his family (not Ella). These are all signs of an abusive/narcissist type personality.


Did you see her thread on spending time with that new guy? Did that not seem narcissistic to you? 

I think her husband is a first-generation American from poor parents who has yet to really become independent. I would think someone who had a personality disorder like NPD would not responded at all to active listening. Or maybe there are levels?

And didn't you say that a true abuser, a true controller would not respond, because their only desire is to control? Surely there is no empathy there then?

Her husband reminds me of my ex brother in law. My sister who was married to him is not an easy person either. On the annulment questionnaire that I just finished filling out for him, I said that I think the marriage failed due to a lack of humility on both parts. Each was very busy blaming the other and pointing out the other's faults. I'm not sure I ever heard either one confessing their own shortcomings in the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Wow, you really were able to retrain him. I am still glad you left him, though.
> 
> My therapist said it was fine that DH stayed in the room. I asked her because I had seen it written here and in another forum that men should leave the room if their wife started yelling at them.
> 
> ...


'

Yes the concern is that the argument/fight would escalate to physical violence. 

I know men who this happened to. Their wife attacked them. In some cases the woman who attacked then tired to have the guy arrested when he tried to protect himself.

It has nothing to do with a whether a guy is big and strong and can protect himself from some smaller woman. It's that violent outbreaks need to be avoided/prevented.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jld said:


> Gosh, we were shocked when we read that. We both strongly believe that that's when a woman needs her husband most, when she's at her weakest emotionally.


A abusive woman who's screaming and saying abusive things is not necessarily emotionally weak at the moment, screaming and insults are their way to accomplish whatever they're trying to achieve a lot of the time. 

Your therapists advice was for you and your husbands relationship/dynamics, not other people's.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Did you see her thread on spending time with that new guy? Did that not seem narcissistic to you?


Nope. That’s pretty typical of a person who is slipping into an emotional affair. Have you ever read “Surviving an Affair” by Dr. Harley?


jld said:


> I think her husband is a first-generation American from poor parents who has yet to really become independent. I would think someone who had a personality disorder like NPD would not responded at all to active listening. Or maybe there are levels?


So what if he’s first-generation. It does not excuse bad behavior. 
Yes there are levels. 


jld said:


> And didn't you say that a true abuser, a true controller would not respond, because their only desire is to control? Surely there is no empathy there then?


A true abuser does not respond in that they will not give up their control just to get some empathy and active listening (understanding). Now they might eat up on empathy and active listening (understanding) as they can use it to enforce that they are in the power seat. Empathy and AL can be taken as paying homage to the person in power. It does not stop them from being abusive.. it just feeds their power ego.




jld said:


> Her husband reminds me of my ex brother in law. My sister who was married to him is not an easy person either. On the annulment questionnaire that I just finished filling out for him, I said that I think the marriage failed due to a lack of humility on both parts. Each was very busy blaming the other and pointing out the other's faults. I'm not sure I ever heard either one confessing their own shortcomings in the marriage.


That’s not unusual. But keep in mind that you were not with them 24/7. So you have no idea what really went on between them. IT might really be that one of them has little to no faults to acknowledge.

Most abusive people only act in an abusive manner when they are in private with their victim.

Most people who know my ex (the doc) think that he’s a really good guy. He has lots of friends. All of the abuse was done when no one except when him, me and our son were around. Often even our son was not there to see it.

I’ve known other marriages where this was the case. The abuser was very careful and only did the abuse behind closed doors at home.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TiggyBlue said:


> A abusive woman who's screaming and saying abusive things is not necessarily emotionally weak at the moment, screaming and insults are their way to accomplish whatever they're trying to achieve a lot of the time.
> 
> Your therapists advice was for you and your husbands relationship/dynamics, not other people's.


Dh and I recommend a man staying in the room and using active listening with his wife. We really think it is the most reassuring for the woman.

There is another approach that some might find helpful: 

Marriage and the Long-Term Borderline Relationship

It is not empathy-based, but it seems to get positive results, at least as far as the comments go.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Revamped said:


> The Federal Government really doesn't care about you. Or your problems. They care about the cut they get off of the split of your husband and YOU. A 2% rise in his CS? Sure, he has to carry the burden to care for his children, but a FEE to do So? No...
> 
> No wonder men have financial difficulties. CS? No problem. Fees? Yes, an issue they will never pay enough of. They're always behind. And you wonder why men are bitter about CS. It's a never ending story...


Yea the gov does not care about anyone. We know that. I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread since we are not asking the feds to do anything.


What 2% fee are you talking about?


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> N
> 
> A true abuser does not respond in that they will not give up their control just to get some empathy and active listening (understanding). Now they might eat up on empathy and active listening (understanding) as they can use it to enforce that they are in the power seat. Empathy and AL can be taken as paying homage to the person in power. It does not stop them from being abusive.. it just feeds their power ego.



100% :iagree:




> That’s not unusual. But keep in mind that you were not with them 24/7. So you have no idea what really went on between them. IT might really be that one of them has little to no faults to acknowledge.
> 
> Most abusive people only act in an abusive manner when they are in private with their victim.
> 
> ...


So true. A abusive person doesn't only manipulate their targets, they manipulate everyone around them.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

jld said:


> Dh and I recommend a man staying in the room and using active listening with his wife. We really think it is the most reassuring for the woman.
> 
> There is another approach that some might find helpful:
> 
> ...


Do you think when a abusive person screams, yells or appears out of control they're actually really out of control?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Dh and I recommend a man staying in the room and using active listening with his wife. We really think it is the most reassuring for the woman.
> 
> There is another approach that some might find helpful:
> 
> ...


I don't think you realize how abusive some women can be. 

No one should stick around and let another person yell at them and berate them.

Add to it that some women do physically attack once her anger level gets up there. 

It's best for people to learn to not get so angry/agitated that they are out of control yelling or appear to be out of control... I say appear because most abusers are in complete control and are putting on an act that they have learned gets them what they want.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Nope. That’s pretty typical of a person who is slipping into an emotional affair. Have you ever read “Surviving an Affair” by Dr. Harley?Well, I think that is narcissistic, too. No, I have not read the book.
> 
> So what if he’s first-generation. It does not excuse bad behavior. But it could help understand it. And it could be pointed out to him. I think the guy would respond to some efforts to understand him. I think he's frustrated and doesn't have many communication skills. I don't think he's evil.
> Yes there are levels. I thought so.
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think you realize how abusive some women can be. I think this is true.
> 
> No one should stick around and let another person yell at them and berate them. Well, we disagree. I think some men can handle it.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I don't think you realize how abusive some women can be. I think this is true.





EleGirl said:


> No one should stick around and let another person yell at them and berate them. Well, we disagree. I think some men can handle it.


Sticking around and giving audience to an angry, ranting and raving person encourages them to continue to use this tactic. It’s my belief that the best way to handle it is to not give audience to this bad behavior. Instead I encourage the person to be learn how to sure their words, think through the issues and then talk about them like a rational person. You know for them, the ranting/raving lunatic, to use their kind voice to talk, to use active listening and empathy towards the person that they usually use as an audience for their unnecessary, out of control rampage.



EleGirl said:


> Add to it that some women do physically attack once her anger level gets up there. I think some men can handle it.


Like I said I don’t think you understand how abusive some women can be. Let me give you some examples.

Joe’s wife, Carla, one of those ranting/reviving out to control women. So one day she’s throwing one of her fits and Joe’s doing what you suggest. He’s a big strong guy and he can surely handle her going off on him yet again. They are in the kitchen. Then Carla is not getting the rise out of Joe that she wants, she picks up a butcher knife and goes after him. Joe’s holding their 1 year old daughter, trying to dodge the knife. 


I get a call from Christine. She says that her husband Aden physically attacked her and she’s injured. So I jump in my car and go over there. Just as I’m calling 911 the nieces and nephews (under 12 years old) stop me and tell me what really happened. Here’s the real story. Christine who also has does this ranting raving thing. And Aden was doing what you advise. He listens to her, after all he’s a guy and he can handle this. At one point Christine’s anger escalates. She jumps on Aden’s back, reaches around and starts to try to gouge his eyes out with her finger nails. She has scratched his face up horribly. He 6’2” and a black belt. She’s 5’2” and tiny. But since she’s on his back he has trouble getting her off himself. Eventually he does “peel” her off and she falls on her backside. So she was injured. And now she wanted to use the police to get Aden charged with domestic violence. Thank goodness for Aden the nieces and nephews and seen the entire thing.


Then there’s Tim. His wife Lori is once again an abusive screamer. Once gain he’s a big strong guy so he just takes it. Then out of nowhere Lori attacks him, beating on him like crazy. So out of self-defense he tries to restrain her. He’s much larger and much stronger than she. So she ends up with bruises on her arms. So the next day she calls the police and charges him with domestic violence. He’s arrested, charged and convicted. And by the way we know that she was the instigator and he was just trying to stop her attack because she wrote about it in emails. She even told Tim’s mother about what really happened.


Oh I almost forgot.. Then there was the friend of my sister’s who used to have these sorts of rages. One day he picked up a phone (old style land line phone) and hit him the in head. It killed him. That was not her intent. But that’s the funny thing about violence. It’s dangerous and we usually cannot control the outcome.


These are just a few cases I know about. If the men had refused to be the sounding board for their wive’s abusive rants, none of the violence would have happened. When an angry/abusive person is allowed to continue an angry rant, it gives the person a chance to escalate. It reinforces this type of behavior. These are volatile situations that can blow up at any point. If it does not happen today, it might happened on their next abusive rage.


The same kind of escalation happens when a man is the verbal/emotional abuser.


It is irresponsible to advise anyone to stay around and just let their SO/spouse rage at them. 



EleGirl said:


> It's best for people to learn to not get so angry/agitated that they are out of control yelling or appear to be out of control... I say appear because most abusers are in complete control and are putting on an act that they have learned gets them what they want. Well then for sure I am not an abuser, because I can tell you nothing I was doing was an act. And I certainly wasn't getting what I wanted.


You would be hard pressed to find an abuser who will admit that they are in complete control. They would not admit that it is learned behavior tactics that they have learned worked for them.

You have learned that this ranting/raving gets you the attention and maybe the outcome you want. It’s a learned tactic. If it stopped working of you, you would try something else. You are so in control and you know exactly what you are doing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I remember this ah-ha moment. A counselor was talking about this. An abusive person will sometimes throw and break things. The appear to be out of control. But the fact is that they seldom break/throw their own favorite things. Usually the items belong to their victim. The message is that this time it's your "_____" next time it just might be you.


Or it could be them hurting themselves.

I am starting to think we are talking about two different kinds of people.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ele, did you ever figure out what attracted you to these guys? Did they all have anything in common?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Ele, did you ever figure out what attracted you to these guys? Did they all have anything in common?


All 3 are good looking, very high IQ, great senses of humor, very verbal, widely read, widely traveled, basically a lot like me. (I know that my sense of humor does not show here on TAM but I have a really good on in real life. I just cannot seem to express it well here on this format.)

With the 1st guy, I think that the problem was the brain damage from the surgery. He lost something very fundamental and it angered him. He was from a good, hard working family. I loved his family.

With the doc, I dated him for 5 years before I married him. He was not abusive at all. There was no clue that he would go that way. Now looking back his cheating is not surprising. But I really just trusted him like an idiot.

The web guy (#3). He was a hard working guy with a great job. He'd been fully employed since high school. He was 44. He had sole custody of his kids. He seemed so solid. His friends, my friends all thought he was a solid guy. His family is solid (they are a big name in the USA so I was able to look up family history). I even did a credit report and background check on him before I married him. Then several events happened around the time he lost his job. He seemed to have completely fallen apart. I think with no job to define him he just never came out of it.

I can look back now and see some red flags. But they are not things that were screaming at me or that anyone else noticed.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Or it could be them hurting themselves.
> 
> I am starting to think we are talking about two different kinds of people.


Who hurting themselves?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Who hurting themselves?


Abusers. They might turn their anger outward, or inward.

I was thinking about what you said about how they seek power. If they cannot get it, they might hurt themselves.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Abusers. They might turn their anger outward, or inward.
> 
> I was thinking about what you said about how they seek power. If they cannot get it, they might hurt themselves.


Their anger is a tool used to get power. 

Using an abusive man as an example, if he feels that he's losing control of his wife we will up the anty. He will increase the verbal/emotional abuse. Eventually it will escalate to violence. Over time the violence will get worse because he has to control her.

When an abused woman leaves her abuser, its a very dangerous time for her. This is when the most murders of women occur. IF a woman goes back and leaves a few times... her highest chance of being murdered by her abuser is on the 3rd time she leaves him.

Most women who are murdered are murdered by their intimate partner. 

This is why just telling a woman to leave an abusive situation is not good. She has to have a plan and she had to be strong enough to leave and not go back. She also needs to be sure that she has a safe place to stay once gone.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> It is irresponsible to advise anyone to stay around and just let their SO/spouse rage at them.
> I think it depends on the man. He knows his wife and what he can handle.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to find an abuser who will admit that they are in complete control. They would not admit that it is learned behavior tactics that they have learned worked for them.
> ...


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I've had a personal experience with someone who didn't see or remember a discussion as it happened. We all have different perspectives that will colour our memories, however this was extreme. The person they were conversing with may have said one simple thing and it was turned into a hysterical outburst in this person's memory. I think she literally warped the memories in her head. How do you deal with that sort of delusion with validation?

This in turn justified, in her mind, her retaliation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

TiggyBlue said:


> Do you think when a abusive person screams, yells or appears out of control they're actually really out of control?


Yes, I think so. I think they are so overwhelmed, they don't know what else to do.

That is why helping them figure out what else they can do is so helpful. But they need to know why they do it, too. Sometimes that can be the key that puts everything into place. It is like a paradigm shift.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

breeze said:


> I've had a personal experience with someone who didn't see or remember a discussion as it happened. We all have different perspectives that will colour our memories, however this was extreme. The person they were conversing with may have said one simple thing and it was turned into a hysterical outburst in this person's memory. I think she literally warped the memories in her head. How do you deal with that sort of delusion with validation?


Happened to me last week with a woman on here. What I said was not what she heard. I asked her if that was what she understood from what I said. I am not even sure she answered. Apparently my words had triggered something in her that was taking her off onto something else.

From what I understand, therapists will try to validate in that way, asking the person if that's what they understood. Then they try to point out what the person speaking to them actually meant, or what the actual facts of the event were. I think they try to contrast reality with a person's interpretation of reality, to help them have accurate understanding. I think it promotes healing.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> An example of this is that when the exDoc would be in a mood that he needed the release of an angry outburst he had a particular way of holding his lips. They were taught like in a sick, sarcastic smile. I came to realize that this happened every time.


I've noticed this with my mother. We'll be having a conversation about some topic and then I'll see her eyes drop and vague look come over her face..... and then she'll mention something like the classmate from high school that she hassled me to be friends with which I have already told her many times in that "open and honest way" that therapists tell you talk to people that she off limits as a conversational topic. 

And yet my mother will still wedge her name in a conversation. The times that I've told a counselor, yes, I have been direct and clear to mention this person /topic and yet my still did it. Then the counselor merely stares at me........ I've learned to wait and make them talk first. 

My parents have also said to me, if we can't talk about x or y with you, then there is nothing to talk about. I've learned not to be intimidated by that remark anymore. 

What has worked for me in dealing with my mother? just moving away from her. I tell her very little. So she has has little "material" to work with.

I don't need her financially. so I've noticed these days when she wants to come over for appointments with oncologist she does not complain about how expensive it is. She has even offered to contribute to the cost my wedding. the first time around, she framed paying for the wedding |(when I and my husband were younger and just starting out) as a financial burden.

Sometimes "empowering" oneself is about moving on not about continuing to engage and hoping. Active listening did not work with my mother either. Her reason for continuing to do things that I have asked her not to do was "I forgot." How do you work with that?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That is exactly right, NTA. Sometimes it is about moving on. And it is _always _about owning our power and not giving it to the other person unintentionally.

Do you think now your mom could talk about that friend and you could let it roll off your back?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> That is exactly right, NTA. Sometimes it is about moving on. And it is _always _about owning our power and not giving it to the other person unintentionally.
> 
> *Do you think now your mom could talk about that friend and you could let it roll off your back?*


No. she has no connection to that woman. She knows nothing new about her. The question is always "How is she?" as if I would know anything.

she only mentions her because she goes to my parents' church. I said that since I was not friends in high school, it's not going to happen now. whoops, too much material for my mother to work with.

If you had respect for someone, would you continue to raise an issue that they have directly asked you to refrain from doing?

I should also point out that this woman is everything that my mother rails against:

1. She is dark. My mother thinks that she is in the special category of high yellow.
2. She went to an ivy league university. My mother thinks that black people who do not choose a historically black university is "trying to prove something."
3. She married a white man. My mother has told me on many occasions to only date black men and tries to put doubt in my mind as to what my white partner's family members must think of me.
4. My mother thinks her hair looks funny. Well, wouldn't that be bad influence on me as much as both my parents hassled me about my hair.

As you can see, my mother is a very controlling person. the way that you tell that, is because on the surface, none of what they say and do is consistent with one another or in any way way makes sense.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jld said:


> Okay, what are the other tools? I still read about it regularly.


John Gottman Couples Therapy Interview


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jld said:


> Did you see her thread on spending time with that new guy? Did that not seem narcissistic to you?


I don't recall seeing that and I wonder if you misunderstood something Ella posted? I did a search on "French" She mentioned going to see a French film festival but I saw nothing about giving OM french lessons.



jld said:


> Put yourself in your husband's shoes. What if he were keeping a secret video camera on you, including that thread on *your interest in giving that man French lessons?*


People who are in EA's do get highly critical of their SO's and see them through crap colored glasses. But I never got the impression from Ella that she was interested in any OM. 

JLD can you find the post where you got that impression?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Anyway...I really don't think it is wise for you to continue insisting that you know what it is like for people with problems different than yours...you clearly do not understand the differences. You literally aren't active listening to the people here you are telling to use active listening.
> 
> It makes you come across as someone who truly DOESN'T listen...which is very ironic, given how important listening is to you.


:iagree:



nuclearnightmare said:


> a high-functioning individual with a PD would have a hay day manipulating couples counseling of this kind.


Abusers are well-known for manipulating counselling sessions.



happy as a clam said:


> jld,
> 
> I usually find your posts to be positive and uplifting. But this one (surprising to me) has passive aggressiveness buried behind your guise of "active listening." I honestly believe your intention to "talk it over" with EleGirl, Blonde, Turnera, and others was a veiled attempt to provoke yet another disagreement.
> 
> "Active listeners" often stir the pot, then raise their hands and say, "I don't understand why everyone is so upset!"


:iagree:

All of this was already discussed in another thread. 



jld said:


> Before you go, can you explain the passive aggressive part?


It seems you just posed this thread to bait people/start controversy. Your goal was not to really try to comprehend. It was just to say that active listening works and again, eluding to the fact that emo/verb abuse isn't real, like you have in several other threads.



jld said:


> It seems like empathy is key to resolving conflicts


Abusers have NO empathy. And that is why none of the techniques you keep stating will work with them.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> Did you see her thread on spending time with that new guy? Did that not seem narcissistic to you?


No. She came here with a question about whether it was ok to flirt with someone, like many many others who post similar threads on TAM. It does not make them narcissistic.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jld said:


> From what I understand, therapists will try to validate in that way, asking the person if that's what they understood. Then they try to point out what the person speaking to them actually meant, or what the actual facts of the event were. I think they try to contrast reality with a person's interpretation of reality, to help them have accurate understanding. I think it promotes healing.


My H is not a screamer or yeller and rarely uses vulgar language. 

I have understood him deeply for many years, that he was very wounded in childhood and it caused him to become emotionally arrested and never develop empathy.

He does not see beyond his own nose. He cannot put himself in another person's shoes. EVERYONE is an extension of him. EVERYONE must see the world and be motivated by what motivates him.

So ds14 being suicidal over school struggles was labeled "manipulative" by H. H raked him over the coals telling him he was going to be a garbage man, drug addict dropout like AJ down the street, we never had these problems with any of the other kids, etc...

Guess what? H was a HS dropout, drug user, garbage man when he was a teenager. He projected himself onto our son.

Another time in 2006 he got mad about a cell phone contract (long story) but he accused our young adult children of stealing his credit card and he told our pastor this. It was MY credit card. My children are saints and angels who would never dream of doing something so illegal and underhanded!

Guess what? H stole a credit card when he was a teenager. He projected himself onto our young adult children.

So no, I am not going to validate H's perception that his children are worthless POS. That is just NOT going to happen!

Guess what? Being treated and told he was a worthless POS by his daddy is a huge part of why H is the way he is.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Blonde said:


> So ds14 being suicidal over school struggles was labeled "manipulative" by H. H raked him over the coals telling him he was going to be a garbage man, drug addict dropout like AJ down the street, we never had these problems with any of the other kids, etc...


The context of this was when I was helping ds organize his backpack. Right then ds took ALL his papers and threw them in the garbage and said "I don't need these anymore"

(Unknown to us until we found it a week into his hospitalization) he had a loaded ****ed gun hidden in the attic which he had held to his head at least twice and he was going to go up and finish the job.

Thankfully, he did not have time as we had to go to his regular counseling session that morning. The counselor told us he was not safe and we needed to take him to the ER.

In the car after counseling H mentioned ds's spiritual failures- he must be suicidal because he questions the existence of God and said to ds in an angry voice "GO AHEAD, BLOW YOUR BRAINS OUT. I'M NOT GONNA WALK AROUND ON EGG SHELLS!"

H has been in with me to couples counseling. The couples counselor said he needs to do some IC because we cannot agree on a goal for couples counseling. My goal is to improve the emotional safety in the home. H blames ds- its all ds' mental illness. H takes no- zero zilch nada- responsibility for saying hurtful wounding rejecting words.

Next time I see my counselor, I have to ask her if I am "oversensitive", make sure I am not the problem here since I have had some depression and anxiety and in H's opinion ds is oversensitive like me and got his mental illness genes from me...


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's something from a site about personality disorders that discusses the dangers of using reflective listening with a person who is delusional (and most full blown PD's are definitely delusional). While this addresses it in counseling specifically, you can see immediately why it doesn't work between individuals, either. From here: Out of the FOG - Treatment
> 
> (quote)
> 
> ...


^^is why we can't do couples counseling and it is also why I need to ask the counselor what she sees...

she's very perceptive and has a good handle on the dynamic


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> My impression of how JLD sees what many of use would call abuse is that she not only thinks the above about men, but about women as well. Basically that it's not abuse. It's just that the person we would call abusive is misunderstood and if only their spouse would use active listening it will quiet the beast, the "abuse" would stop and they would live happily ever after... if only the victimized person would stop being narcissistic/self-absorbed and just actively listen to the yeller/insulter/abuser.


Death and life are in the power of the tongue Prov 18:21

the tongue. 
It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, 
and with it 
*we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness *James 3:8-9


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

jld, let me clarify why I believe "active listening" isn't always as effective as you think. EleGirl said this:



EleGirl said:


> I was lucky in that his cousin came buy and knocked at the door. *The distraction gave me a window to escape.* It was the last time I saw him.


To which you replied this:



jld said:


> That is quite a load. *Jumping out of a window.* My goodness.


EleGirl clarified by saying she hadn't "literally" jumped out of a window. It was an expression -- a window meaning an "opportunity" to escape.



EleGirl said:


> *No.. not jump out of a window.* A "window of escape" meaning a chance to escape. I ran out the front door as his cousin was coming in it.


And this is one of my problems with this "tool." I believe your active listening made you "hear" something entirely different from what EleGirl was actually saying. I read her post and interpreted it exactly how she meant it. I believe active listeners are very busy trying to "sum up" what the other person is saying, instead of REALLY listening to what they are saying.

Active listening was originally designed to be used between a *hired therapist and a paying client* in order to build a trusting relationship. *It was NOT intended to be used for the basis of couples' communication.* Like many other ideas, it has morphed into something entirely different than its original intent. And I don't find it to be particularly helpful in a couples situation. Personally, I find getting caught up in these kinds of active listening "conversations" (they aren't really conversations at all) to be exasperating and just go round and round in circles.


Here's an interesting article regarding active listening...

Why Active Listening Doesn't Work And Can Make Matters Worse!

And yet another article from John Gottman on the "myth" of active listening and why he no longer uses it for couples... (I might add he did MUCH research on this tool with couples). He also discusses at great length the newer modalities for couples therapy which are much more productive.

http://www.psychotherapy.net/interview/john-gottman

Just my 2 cents...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Blonde said:


> The context of this was when I was helping ds organize his backpack. Right then ds took ALL his papers and threw them in the garbage and said "I don't need these anymore"
> 
> (Unknown to us until we found it a week into his hospitalization) he had a loaded ****ed gun hidden in the attic which he had held to his head at least twice and he was going to go up and finish the job.
> 
> ...


WOW. Just, wow, Blonde. I am so sorry for all of this.  May I ask WHY you stay married to someone who does this to their own son?


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> WOW. Just, wow, Blonde. I am so sorry for all of this.  May I ask WHY you stay married to someone who does this to their own son?


H would have gotten joint custody and there would have been no one there to protect them. 

Now that the children are old enough that most of them can choose visitation, the D option is on the table. H is in IC and I am hoping for some breakthrough for him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde said:


> John Gottman Couples Therapy Interview


_So here's what the secret is, I think here's what couples do who really are headed for divorce. They take the problem and they put it on their partner: "The problem is you, and your personality, your character; you're a screw-up." That's an attack, and that's the fundamental attribution error that everybody's making: "I'm okay, you're the problem, you're not okay." So then their partner responds defensively and denies responsibility and says: "You're the problem; I'm not the problem."

What the masters do is they have the problem and it's kind of like a soccer ball they're kicking around with each other. They say: "We've got this problem. Let's take a look at it, let's kick it around. How do you see it? I see it this way, and we kick it around." And all of a sudden I can have empathy for your position because you're telling me what you contribute to the problem._

Thanks for linking that, Blonde. I had heard active listening would not work if both of the partners were emotional because it takes at least one to remain calm and do the active listening. And as Gottman says in the article, many couples do not do active listening. Maybe very few, if any, as I understood from the interview. Well, then, of course it is not going to work.

I think what I'm understanding from Gottman is that some people can use active listening in a manipulative way. I think that's what Deejo was saying earlier. For sure, you have to have sincere intentions. I don't think you'll get very far if you don't have sincere intentions. I think that's kind of what the first paragraph from this excerpt is saying.

I think another way to say the second paragraph is: "Here's what I think. What do you think? How can we solve our problem?" It is a collaborative approach.

I don't see active listening and the approach I just mentioned as being in conflict with each other. I see them both as helpful tools. 

Active listening does have to be followed up with an action plan, though. That is the mistake that my husband I have made, not having a follow-up action plan. It really is key.

I think the real fear people have with active listening is that they're afraid that one person may be doing too much or giving too much. Some couples are very sensitive to the balance of power in the relationship. Neither wants to be seen as having less power than the other, as I understand it. 

That is not a fear I have, because I trust my partner, because he has earned my trust. I could not have stayed with a man that I could not have trusted.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Good lord, you are a freaking broken record. Why cant you let this go?? Everyone is TELLING you, the SAME APPROACH DOES NOT WORK FOR ALL SITUATIONS! For someone who is all hell bent on "active listening", you dont listen. 

I'm out.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

3Xnocharm said:


> Why cant you let this go?? Everyone is TELLING you, the SAME APPROACH DOES NOT WORK FOR ALL SITUATIONS!


Forward-thinking therapists have ditched this method for couples therapy, *because it was NEVER intended for couples therapy.*


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> Forward-thinking therapists have ditched this method for couples therapy, *because it was NEVER intended for couples therapy.*


This is an important point. It's not something that most people can do. In a way, giving a tool to a amateur and expecting them to act as therapist/counselor to the other. Not a good thing in a relationship.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde said:


> I don't recall seeing that and I wonder if you misunderstood something Ella posted? I did a search on "French" She mentioned going to see a French film festival but I saw nothing about giving OM french lessons.
> 
> People who are in EA's do get highly critical of their SO's and see them through crap colored glasses. But I never got the impression from Ella that she was interested in any OM.
> 
> JLD can you find the post where you got that impression?


I can't find it. She must have removed the thread. One of the posts was about how she could relieve her "misery" by getting attention from another man, a man who had expressed interest in her giving him French lessons. She was heavily counseled in the thread not to meet with him alone, and asked how she would feel if her husband did the same thing. Empathy. 

Narcissistic, to me, just means selfish. We all have it to some degree. But in marriage, it does not serve us very well.

Bottom line: I don't think Ella is a victim, and her husband is evil. I think they both have their issues. I do think active listening could be a start, if he is not willing to go to counseling. He responded to it well once, and I think he could again.

She could also just leave him, or give a counseling or else ultimatum.

Blonde, I have spent too many years feeling like a victim myself, and knowing that feeling of powerlessness, to wish that on anyone else. Ella's marriage may fail, but I think there are things that she could do that could spark change. I would like to see all options tried before she throws in the towel.

That "Here is how I see it, how do you see it, how can we solve the problem" approach might work, too. It is worth a try.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> This is an important point. It's not something that most people can do. In a way, giving a tool to a amateur and expecting them to act as therapist/counselor to the other. Not a good thing in a relationship.



When one side plays fair in active listening, all they are doing if giving "material" to the other side that allows them to tear them apart.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde said:


> My H is not a screamer or yeller and rarely uses vulgar language.
> 
> I have understood him deeply for many years, that he was very wounded in childhood and it caused him to become emotionally arrested and never develop empathy.
> 
> ...


Blonde, it does not stop with validating his feelings. That is just the first step. I said in my post that a therapist would contrast his feeling with reality. 

When I understand from your post about your husband is that he is probably too damaged to be able to have much empathy for you and your children. I hope the counseling will be successful. I have heard the counseling only helps when the person wants to improve. 

And let's face, it takes a lot of humility for people to be able to get on a healthier path. Someone who is really damaged is very weak inside, very scared. It takes strength to admit we are wrong. They probably just don't have it. And they become very controlling to protect themselves from their fears. I think that's why they become so focused on what other people are saying and doing. They can't protect themselves from the inside, so they try to do it from the outside.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: Re: EleGirl, turnera, Blonde . . . Do you want to talk about emo/verb abuse?*



jld said:


> Yes, I think so. I think they are so overwhelmed, they don't know what else to do.
> 
> That is why helping them figure out what else they can do is so helpful. But they need to know why they do it, too. Sometimes that can be the key that puts everything into place. It is like a paradigm shift.


This would be a good example of using your 'I' statements.

Certainly sounds like you are referring to your personal experiences. And that's understandable, folks do it here all of the time.

And I'm familiar with standing fast and helping someone you love that is feeling overwhelmed, angry and lost.

How would you qualify your circumstances with dug? Is he being abusive by not listening to or actively acknowledging your concerns, or are you being abusive by expecting him to stand fast and tolerate your outbursts? 

Or do you see any part of the dynamic as abusive at all?

How would you feel if in fact, dug spun on his heels and walked out?

Would you presume he's being weak? Would you believe he's abandoning you?

Might he think you could possibly harm him?

Would it cross your mind that he's stepping away because he's a heartbeat away from punching you full in the face?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

For sure, words and actions are hurtful. But I think if we want to truly change what is expressed, it has to start with the heart. It is from the heart that the mouth speaks, says the Bible. The heart is what has to change. I don't see that happening without a paradigm shift.

When we see people differently, we respond to them differently. If nothing else, we let go of bitterness and resentment, because we see their frailty, and we feel compassion. And that does not mean we do not protect ourselves from them.

In your situation, Blonde, your children are more vulnerable than your husband. They have to be the priority. I am glad divorce is on the table for you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Deejo said:


> This would be a good example of using your 'I' statements.
> 
> Certainly sounds like you are referring to your personal ecperiences. And that's understandable, folks do it here all of the time.
> 
> ...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> I can't find it. She must have removed the thread. One of the posts was about how she could relieve her "misery" by getting attention from another man, a man who had expressed interest in her giving him French lessons. She was heavily counseled in the thread not to meet with him alone, and asked how she would feel if her husband did the same thing. Empathy.
> 
> Narcissistic, to me, just means selfish. We all have it to some degree. But in marriage, it does not serve us very well.
> 
> ...


Ok I said I was out, but I have to comment about Ella's situation. Ella's husband is a selfish, manipulative bully. He isnt going to change, and Ella's only hope is to kiss his ass every day for the rest of her life, or divorce him. He is condescending, insulting, critical and nit picky. He doesnt love her in any way, shape or form. He doesnt care about how she feels or what she thinks, and the sooner she gets away from him, the better off she and her son will be. Why YOU JLD dont accept this is beyond me. Jesus, have you READ her posts??


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> I can't find it. She must have removed the thread. One of the posts was about how she could relieve her "misery" by getting attention from another man, a man who had expressed interest in her giving him French lessons. She was heavily counseled in the thread not to meet with him alone, and asked how she would feel if her husband did the same thing. Empathy.
> 
> *Narcissistic, to me, just means selfish.* We all have it to some degree. But in marriage, it does not serve us very well.
> 
> ...


This could be part of the disconnect you have. The difference in usage and meaning of the same term. In laymans terms, narcissist is thought to merely be a selfish person, but in clinical terms, a narcissist is someone with a personality disorder, a very serious, incurable, uncontrollable disorder. Two very different definitions. Your understanding of the term is very minimizing to those of us who are using therm in the clinical sense, those of us who have lived the clinical experience.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Ok I said I was out, but I have to comment about Ella's situation. Ella's husband is a selfish, manipulative bully. He isnt going to change, and Ella's only hope is to kiss his ass every day for the rest of her life, or divorce him. He is condescending, insulting, critical and nit picky. He doesnt love her in any way, shape or form. He doesnt care about how she feels or what she thinks, and the sooner she gets away from him, the better off she and her son will be. Why YOU JLD dont accept this is beyond me. Jesus, have you READ her posts??


Yes, I have. I do think there is hope. To me, when there is no physical abuse, sexual or financial infidelity, or substance abuse, there is hope. And he did respond well to the one instance of active listening. 

I don't like to give up on marriages if I feel there is hope. Even if I am the only one who feels there is hope, I'm going to communicate that. Sometimes it is just one person who can make the difference.

And no one is obliged to listen to me. We are all just sharing our opinions here.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jld said:


> Blonde, it does not stop with validating his feelings. That is just the first step. I said in my post that a therapist would contrast his feeling with reality.
> 
> When I understand from your post about your husband is that he is probably too damaged to be able to have much empathy for you and your children. I hope the counseling will be successful. I have heard the counseling only helps when the person wants to improve.
> 
> And let's face, it takes a lot of humility for people to be able to get on a healthier path. Someone who is really damaged is very weak inside, very scared. It takes strength to admit we are wrong. They probably just don't have it. And they become very controlling to protect themselves from their fears. I think that's why they become so focused on what other people are saying and doing. They can't protect themselves from the inside, so they try to do it from the outside.


IMO, it is not healthy to validate feelings of contempt toward another human being.

Here is Gottman on that: click here and scroll down to the paragraph that begins with "contempt" where Gottman gives his opinion of "active listening" when dealing with contempt.

I* understand* that my H feels contempt toward his children (maybe his male children moreso) because he sees himself in them and he hates himself. And I *empathize * (deeply) with H's unresolved baggage and pain. (in a way, we are a matched set. my childhood was very abusive and deprived)

To VALIDATE contempt, rejection, and hatred would be massively unhealthy for H. My MO is to replace the character assassinations with affirmations and to remind the children that "daddy has issues. I know it is very hard not to take his words to heart but they are a reflection on him, not you!"


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> This could be part of the disconnect you have. The difference in usage and meaning of the same term. In laymans terms, narcissist is thought to merely be a selfish person, but in clinical terms, a narcissist is someone with a personality disorder, a very serious, incurable, uncontrollable disorder. Two very different definitions. Your understanding of the term is very minimizing to those of us who are using therm in the clinical sense, those of us who have lived the clinical experience.


I believe there is evil in the world, Sam. And I would not be a bit surprised to hear that one description of it is NPD. And I could imagine that divorce is the only reasonable option.

But what do you do with the anger afterwards?

Do you read Uptown's posts? To me, he seems to have a very healthy mindset. I do not hear bitterness and resentment and defensiveness in his posts. I hear honesty and sadness, and acceptance. I think that is the path of peace, and healing.

I don't think Uptown gives his power away to other people anymore. I could be wrong, but I get the impression he owns it.

And I am guessing there are levels of NPD. I read a description and my dad fit it perfectly. But he did not kill anyone. He was not the most severe NPD.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> *Yes, I have. I do think there is hope. To me, when there is no physical abuse, sexual or financial infidelity, or substance abuse, there is hope. And he did respond well to the one instance of active listening.
> *


Well then, you live in your own deluded little bubble, sorry to say. I lived through a situation like you describe here, ("no physical abuse, sexual or financial infidelity, or substance abuse") and let me tell you, my life became total misery. I was criticized and insulted almost daily, my husband seemed to resent my very being, as well as my daughter's. I dealt with yelling rages followed by days of silent treatment. Turned out he is a misogynist, textbook example of one...I had no chance in hell for the very fact that I am a female.

This is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but you need to learn when to back off.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Not really sure what the point of this thread is. 

If you wanted to talk to those members, why not just PM them? All of this was already discussed in another thread before. This thread was not really created to discuss emo/verbal abuse. It's clear jld is not into listening to what other people are saying because she keeps downplaying it and eluding to the fact that it doesn't exist, even going as far as to call some posters narcissistic who have posted about their abusive relationships.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> It's clear jld is not into listening to what other people are saying because she keeps downplaying it and eluding to the fact that it doesn't exist, even going as far as to call some posters narcissistic who have posted about their abusive relationships.


It does serve to make me pretty confused as to what this "active listening" thing is that she advocates. I'm not sure that I've seen an example of it yet.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Precisely what I'm saying. What is the point of this thread? That whole "practice what you preach" apparently doesn't apply to her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde said:


> IMO, it is not healthy to validate feelings of contempt toward another human being.
> 
> Here is Gottman on that: click here and scroll down to the paragraph that begins with "contempt" where Gottman gives his opinion of "active listening" when dealing with contempt.
> 
> ...


I totally agree with the bolded. I just don't think I could stay with a man like your husband. I think he would have scared me right away, and I would have run away.

I looked up the link you gave. Scroll down a little bit and look at "repair." That is definitely the kind of stuff we do regularly here, appreciation, empathy, etc. I need to read more of Gottman's work. Thank you for linking those excerpts.

*Validating does not mean agreeing with.* Of course we cannot agree with contempt. But I don't see how these people have any shot of getting healthier without some effort to understand them, and reflect that to them. And clearly you have made efforts to understand him. And I am so glad you are protecting your children, and yourself.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

JLD...your father being NPD makes you a prime candidate for having a PD yourself and frankly, most people with a PD are able to fool a counselor because they aren't totally honest with themselves or anyone (due to the dissociative nature of the PD itself). I actually think you are showing signs of being delusional in this thread. Trying to talk to is making other people go crazy because you do sound delusional.

If two people aren't talking about the same reality there can be no understanding. Notice that really no one in this thread is agreeing with you and you are actually insulting their intelligence yet you just continue talking without hearing any of them.

The conversation you are having right now is why active listening can't work with someone who is delusional.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jld said:


> *Validating does not mean agreeing with.* Of course we cannot agree with contempt. But I don't see how these people have any shot of getting healthier without some effort to understand them, and reflect that to them. And clearly you have made efforts to understand him. And I am so glad you are protecting your children, and yourself.


val·i·date
ˈvaləˌdāt/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: validating
check or prove the validity or accuracy of (something).
"these estimates have been validated by periodic surveys"
demonstrate or support the truth or value of.
"in a healthy family a child's feelings are validated"
synonyms:	prove, substantiate, corroborate, verify, support, back up, bear out, lend force to, confirm, justify, vindicate, authenticate More
antonyms:	disprove
make or declare legally valid.
synonyms:	ratify, endorse, approve, agree to, accept, authorize, legalize, legitimize, warrant, license, certify, recognize More
antonyms:	reject, revoke
recognize or affirm the validity or worth of (a person or their feelings or opinions); cause (a person) to feel valued or worthwhile.
"without Patti to validate my feelings, they seemed not to exist"
​
I am not going to validate feelings (and actions) of contempt toward me or our children. I am going to call it by its name- abuse.

JLD, one time when my now 26yos was 19 and his dad pushed around his 17yos over that cell phone incident I mentioned earlier, ds called his father an a$$hole to his face.

I made ds apologize. DS said to me "WHY? It is like making me apologize for calling the sky blue!!!"

DS was RIGHT and I now regret insisting that our son "validate" my husband's "feelings" that he was "disrespected"

H's response to an apology like that is to rub the supposed offender's face in it.

I took my 2 ds 11yos and 14yos to my therapist a week ago and she asked them if they feel their dad RESPECTS them. They both said "no". She asked if they care that he doesn't respect them. They both said "no". She asked "why?" The 11yos said "because I don't respect him"

The Bible says "whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap"

Sow disrespect, reap disrespect


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, I am seeing my counselor tomorrow. I will share your concerns with her.

FW, no one is obligated to read this thread. Some people have said they're leaving, but they keep coming back. It's their choice.

I think what people want is for me to agree with them. Is this what you would like me to say?

"Ella is being abused by her husband. She needs to divorce immediately. She has no power to change things on her own."

"Anything that is listed on a description of emotional or verbal abuse confirms one person is the victim and the other person is the abuser. This labeling is extremely important. It will be the basis for all further discussions of these two people. Much like with a BS and a WS, one person is right and one person is wrong. Period. No need to look further."


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> JLD...your father being NPD makes you a prime candidate for having a PD yourself and frankly, most people with a PD are able to fool a counselor because they aren't totally honest with themselves or anyone (due to the dissociative nature of the PD itself). I actually think you are showing signs of being delusional in this thread. Trying to talk to is making other people go crazy because you do sound delusional.
> 
> If two people aren't talking about the same reality there can be no understanding. Notice that really no one in this thread is agreeing with you and you are actually insulting their intelligence yet you just continue talking without hearing any of them.
> 
> The conversation you are having right now is why active listening can't work with someone who is delusional.


Thank you for articulating this so well. This is what I was trying to say a few pages back. That this entire thread and her stance was completely ironic. 

I don't believe that someone is as naive as jld is trying to come across as. Seems like another baiting topic.

This thread is a dead horse.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

The most enlightened thing you could say would be "gee since no one seems to understand what I am saying and they are all saying the same thing, perhaps they are talking about something I don't understand. I thought I understood it but these people are all helping me realize that I don't fully understand and I probably should stop trying to make my point because it may not be accurate."


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Well, I am seeing my counselor tomorrow. I will share your concerns with her.
> 
> *FW, no one is obligated to read this thread. Some people have said they're leaving, but they keep coming back. It's their choice.*
> 
> ...


Wow. This right here is a statement that is the hallmark of a self absorbed, emotionally abusive person.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jld said:


> I think what people want is for me to agree with them. Is this what you would like me to say?


Au contraire. It seems you would like people to agree with you. 

Again, your thread topic totally betrays that you wanted a talk/discussion at all.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

One of the hallmarks of a PD is the inability to see things differently. A mental inflexibility where the PD person simply cannot change the way they view something regardless of being shown facts that clearly show the thoughts are untrue or inaccurate.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

That's why I said this thread is so ironic, FW! 

And to borrow from an old friend of ours...

because... SCIENCE!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jld said:


> I don't think we think in terms of "abuse." We don't rush to label each other. And I don't think we hold the kind of resentment that other people seem to. And it's probably because emotions are expressed right away, and not held in.
> 
> What has made the difference for me is realizing I'm not powerless in the marriage. I cannot tell you the psychological freedom that has given me. Before, I was giving him my power and then getting mad when he didn't do what I wanted. Now I realize that when I give him power, it's a choice that I am making. And he's not obligated to do when I want. But I can keep telling him how I feel, using those I statements. For me, this has really been a breakthrough.


And a very healthy one.



jld said:


> Honestly, Deejo, I don't think Dug and I think like that. I don't think we expect perfection from each other. I do think there's a lot of love and commitment. Our daughter mentioned one time that I overlook a lot in Dug. I think he does the same in me. There is not much victim mentality in this marriage.


To be clear, I'm not insinuating that you and dug have an abusive relationship ... at all. But as you have stated, you have very little control over how or what others see or feel about your relationship, your daughter included. Given what I know of your circumstances I know of 2 distinct scenarios where the husband is away most of the time, and mom is left to run the ship. In one case, the marriage works BECAUSE of that dynamic. In the other, and I could certainly included my ex-wife in this category as well; there is no sense of pride or admiration for their husbands hard work to do what he must for his family. They instead resent him, and sabotage the relationship and the marriage. It doesn't work. It can't work for those people. 
In your case? You love and admire your husband, despite his absence. You are not in the minority ... you are the singular example of a dynamic like this with a loving marriage I am aware of. So, kudos.



jld said:


> I would feel sad. I also don't believe you can control another person. If he would not want to be with me anymore, I believe I would have no choice but to accept it. Now, no, because I'm stronger. I know he would feel he was being weak. He would consider leaving me abandonment, absolutely.


To clarify, I mean walked out on you in the middle of an argument, not walked away from you and your family. 

As for your partner leaving, there can be quite a large gap between watching them walk out the door, and accepting it.

You have an interesting concept of emotional strength and emotional weakness. Certainly not going to tell you your perspective is wrong. But ... you would do well to understand that it is yours, and by expressing it in the manner you do, lends to others posting about your being passive aggressive, or dismissive, disrespectful and controversial. 



jld said:


> _Might he think you could possibly harm him?_ No way!


Neither did my brother, until his at the time girlfriend launched herself at him (when he was breaking up with her because she was disturbed). And like Elegirl indicated, my brother spent the weekend in jail, after he restrained her and she called the police and said he attacked her ... punched and kicked her, and that she was pregnant.



jld said:


> *No, Dug is not like that at all.* But he said that if men cannot handle a woman's emotion, they should leave the room. He certainly does not want them to get violent.


And here is the crux of the matter. I believe you are married to a very decent man, a man of character. Your man, your circumstances. 

The unfortunate reality is, that many men DO get violent with women ... and they don't interpret it as weakness at all. It is an expression of pure unmitigated anger and rage, strength, power, and control.

Victim mentality and Victimhood are not synonymous. They aren't the same thing.

A woman or man in an abusive relationship may not have a victim mentality at all ... that doesn't change the fact that they are victims. 

I've worked with victims a very long time ago.

Your opinions are yours, and I'm never going to argue that anyone is entitled to them, or has the opportunity to express them. Our own circumstances generally form the bedrock of those opinions. But do please recognize or acknowledge that methods used for creating better communication are like p!ssing into the wind in the face of someone that is willing to choke you into unconsciousness because you failed to do something exactly as you were instructed.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

The only thing that I am looking for JLD to agree to is that we can all disagree, and that she is not always right. (neither is anyone else, for that matter) I find it insulting that she thinks situations like my previous marriage could have been saved if only I had taken steps that SHE deem to be the "right" ones! 

I never, ever expect someone to just blindly agree to my viewpoint, and JLD, neither should you!


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

JLD,

In nursing school, during the psych rotation, I learned how BPD emotional outbursts are handled. It does not involve active listening nor validation of their feelings. 

"what happened right before that outburst that triggered those feelings?"

"how could you have responded in a healthier more constructive way?"

"what can you do differently next time you are triggered?"

My husband has a huge unmet childhood need for RESPECT. I had a dream once and he was sitting in a dirty cobwebbed empty olympic size swimming pool which was his respect deficit. And I was desperately trying and FORCING the children to give him RESPECT but it was in teaspoons. 

The message- no matter how much we walk on eggshells and cater to him attempting to satisfy him, validate/value him... we *cannot* fill the hole in his heart

In my worldview, he needs to go to God to have that hole filled.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

One last point...I suspect jld's husband may have aspberger's syndrome and that is why he lacks the emotional range others have. Which could be why her rages don't affect him.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh that would definitely affect things.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

3Xnocharm said:


> The only thing that I am looking for JLD to agree to is that we can all disagree, and that she is not always right. (neither is anyone else, for that matter)


I just want to be clear, with no disrespect to anyone else; that in fact, I usually am right ... even if we disagree.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

jld said:


> It seems like empathy is key to resolving conflicts:
> 
> Conflict Issues | Resolution Mediation
> 
> ...


I did try.

Didn't work.

What also didn't work with my abuser:

Crying
Begging
Threats of leaving
Writing letters
Marriage counseling
Family intervention
Individual therapy
Reading books/research
Online forums
Digging into his past/how he was raised
Kindness, understanding & love

What worked:

Leaving


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Emerald said:


> What worked:
> 
> Leaving


That is generally the ONLY thing that works with an abuser.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The only thing this thread has accomplished is to up everyone's post count.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

jld said:


> Well, I am seeing my counselor tomorrow. I will share your concerns with her.
> 
> FW, no one is obligated to read this thread. Some people have said they're leaving, but they keep coming back. It's their choice.
> 
> ...


Why do you do that? Every time you feel that you are being ganged up on, you throw the "well, nobody is obligated to read this thread" card. Or, you say "I just think everyone wants me to agree with them". EVERY TIME, jld. This thread is no different. And, frankly, that tone is quite condescending. I've read all the way through (so far), and you really are not _listening_ to what people are saying. I really have yet to see a thread where you actually have practiced your "active listening" approach.

You think everyone just wants you to say the above? No, what would be better is "hey, this worked for dug and me. If you haven't tried it already, give it a shot." Oh, and you really DO need to recognize that emotional and verbal abuse ARE truly abuse. Sometimes, those can be more traumatizing, leave more lasting effects, than the other types. Note, I said sometimes.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> The only thing this thread has accomplished is to up everyone's post count.


Even mine! 
I now feel validated! 

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Even mine!
> I now feel validated!
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Oh, and peoples like counts too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> The only thing this thread has accomplished is to up everyone's post count.


I got a bunch of likes out of it too.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Ha ha cross posted!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde, this is what I mean by validating:

Understanding Validation: A Way to Communicate Acceptance | Psychology Today

_One of the four options we have in any problem situation is acceptance. Validation is one way that we communicate acceptance of ourselves and others. *Validation doesn't mean agreeing or approving.* When your best friend or a family member makes a decision that you really don't think is wise, validation is a way of supporting them and strengthening the relationship while maintaining a different opinion. Validation is a way of communicating that the relationship is important and solid even when you disagree on issues._

According to The Seven Habits of a Highly Effective People, validating people's opinions gives them psychological air. And it looks like I need to give some psychological air to the people who disagree with me. I would like to finish this post, first.

Another thing, from your link from Gottman:

The Marriage Clinic: A Scientifically-based Marital Therapy - John Mordechai Gottman - Google Books

"What is repair? It can be almost anything, but it is generally the spouses acting as their own therapist." That is from the bottom of page 48.

It may not be possible for everyone, but it is not an unknown concept.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Zzzzzzzooooommmm.......right over the head.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Blonde, this is what I mean by validating:
> 
> Understanding Validation: A Way to Communicate Acceptance | Psychology Today
> 
> ...


And this has exactly WHAT to do with abusive situations? Wait, what am I thinking here...nothing at all because in your reality, most abuse is not really abuse...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Every time you feel that you are being ganged up on, you throw the "well, nobody is obligated to read this thread" card. Or, you say "I just think everyone wants me to agree with them". EVERY TIME, jld. This thread is no different. And, frankly, that tone is quite condescending. I've read all the way through (so far), and you really are not _listening_ to what people are saying. I really have yet to see a thread where you actually have practiced your "active listening" approach.


:iagree:

Yeah I agree that jld does seem to post in a way that is dismissive/passive-aggressive/not "active listening" to other posters. 



Maricha75 said:


> Oh, and you really DO need to recognize that emotional and verbal abuse ARE truly abuse. Sometimes, those can be more traumatizing, leave more lasting effects, than the other types. Note, I said sometimes.


It's been well documented and studied that emotional and verbal abuse has a much longer-lasting and detrimental effects than physical abuse does on a person. Even war prisoners are said to have suffered the most when they were abused that way. It is a complete and total psychological and mental mindfcking. Some folks cannot actually heal the damage after that. It affects how they interact with people, how they view themselves, others around them, ability to trust, questioning their ability to choose healthy situations, etc. That whole thing about time not healing all wounds.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Zzzzzzzooooommmm.......right over the head.


I could hear the airplane when you made that sound.

Yeah, dead horse.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Yeah I agree that jld does seem to post in a way that is dismissive/passive-aggressive/not "active listening" to other posters.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I know I suffer from some sort of PTSD (confirmed by a pdoc) from being abused. I cannot handle/process a raised voice or any type of anger/aggression from people in a normal way.

No more fight or flight response; just flight.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Exactly. It absolutely is a horrible horrible thing.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Revamped said:


> I think...
> 
> I've had three broken eye sockets.
> 
> ...


ughhh...
I'm sorry to hear you've been so badly abused. How are you recovering emotionally? well I hope....


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I seldom talk about it but I've actually been married 3 times. The first was a 22. He was physically abusive. We were married for 4 years. He had a brain aneurism on our first anniversary. After brain surgery he come out a very different person due to brain damage. He was frustrated and angry because he was not who he used to be. So over time he because abusive. It was not all the time. There as pushing/shoving. One time to slammed my head into a coffee table. I had a blood red eye for weeks, buses, etc. I left him then at one point he showed up at my place and tried to kill me with a straight razor. I was lucky in that his cousin came buy and knocked at the door. The distraction gave me a window to escape. It was the last time I saw him.
> 
> Then at 35 I married the doctor. I forgot to mention above that the 'good' doctor was also a serial cheater. I found this out just before I left him. That was no fun.
> 
> Then at 50 I married again to a guy with a 6 figure job and custody of his 2 children. He never raised his voice at me. He has never hit me. He did cheat. He also lost his job with IBM in one of their huge layoffs. He's never worked since then. Just played computer games and surfed the web. I raised his kids, was the bread winner etc. I consider him to be emotionally abusive is a very subtle sort of way.. very passive aggressive.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Revamped said:


> The Federal Government really doesn't care about you. Or your problems. They care about the cut they get off of the split of your husband and YOU. A 2% rise in his CS? Sure, he has to carry the burden to care for his children, but a FEE to do So? No...
> 
> No wonder men have financial difficulties. CS? No problem. Fees? Yes, an issue they will never pay enough of. They're always behind. And you wonder why men are bitter about CS. It's a never ending story...


The US government taxes child support payments??


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

I was 18. I thought I could handle it. Thought I "knew" I could fix him. It was a long time ago. When most people just looked the other way. 

It isn't like that now. Now, they teach in schools about Violence in Dating. It's a section in Health class. Not that I don't talk to my children about what is acceptable behavior but I do think it reaches the silent minority.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Ele -
> 
> are you single now or still with the third husband?


I'm divorced since 3/2012.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

jld,

I went back and read all of your posts in this thread. In a great majority of them, you really don't address the "heart" of specific comments made by posters; rather, you just keep rambling on and talking OVER them about empathy and active listening. It's like you're reading a different thread from what the rest of us are reading.

Others have stated they suspect you have a personality disorder; I'm not sure about that, but YOU certainly are the ultimate irony; you are an "active listener" who really *isn't* LISTENING to anyone.

It finally dawned on me, that this "active listening" is an escape mechanism for you so you really don't have to deal with issues. Instead, you are the proverbial ostrich who buries its head in the sand. It's easy to repeat things back in a pseudo-empathic way without really "hearing" or feeling what the other person is saying and feeling at all. And active listening allows you to tantrum and rant without any real consequences... all is well in your world when all you have to do is verbalize that there was a different way to handle what just happened. *Actions speak louder than words.* Change the bad BEHAVIOR, *not* how you SUMMARIZE the bad behavior.

It's clever, but you're not really making any progress with this so-called tool. It just stunts your emotional growth and development in relationships.

ETA: To prove my theory, I predict you will either not respond to anything I've said in this post because it doesn't advance your agenda, or you will once again talk right OVER me without really addressing anything I've said. Sitting back now to watch and wait.

[URL="[/URL]


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> The US government taxes child support payments??


No, it's not a tax. It is a filing fee that gets tacked on to CS to monitor the CS program. If you are ordered to pay $500 a month in CS and that's broken down into 2 payments a month, then the Title IV process fee is $10 each time. So, an extra $20 per month is added to CS payments.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Revamped said:


> No, it's not a tax. It is a filing fee that gets tacked on to CS to monitor the CS program. If you are ordered to pay $500 a month in CS and that's broken down into 2 payments a month, then the Title IV process fee is $10 each time. So, an extra $20 per month is added to CS payments.


Well someone has to pay for the collection. There is no reason why I, as a tax payer, should foot the bill to collect someone else's child support.

Of course not all people go through CS. Often they don't go there until the payer stops making their payments.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Nope. That’s pretty typical of a person who is slipping into an emotional affair. Have you ever read “Surviving an Affair” by Dr. Harley?
> 
> So what if he’s first-generation. It does not excuse bad behavior.
> Yes there are levels.
> ...


how many close friends does he have? just curious......


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In my state there is no option, everyone pays through the state system.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> In my state there is no option, everyone pays through the state system.


Yes, Ohio does that too.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Deejo said:


> I just want to be clear, with no disrespect to anyone else; that in fact, I usually am right ... even if we disagree.


I know how you feel. though I've come dangerously close to being wrong on a couple occassions just within the past year. somehow this has shaken my self confidence a little.......


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

nuclearnightmare said:


> I know how you feel. though I've come dangerously close to being wrong on a couple occassions just within the past year. somehow this has shaken my self confidence a little.......


It's a favorite refrain of mine that I usually say with a grin when I propose some plan, particularly when it comes to relationships or business,

"I suppose what you are saying is possible. I could be wrong. I've been wrong once before."

That and I'm not narcissistic, I'm just very honest and emotionally up-front about how awesome I am.

Disarming tension with levity folks. It's what I do. It's all part of the awesome.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

I have a coffee cup (I know it's shocking that I have a coffee cup) that says "I know I'm not perfect, but I'm so close it scares me."


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Somehow this all reminds me of an Abnormal Psych class I taught...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Coffee Amore said:


> I have a coffee cup (I know it's shocking that I have a coffee cup)


:rofl:



SamuraiJack said:


> Somehow this all reminds me of an Abnormal Psych class I taught...


I l-l-love abnormal psych. It's seriously one of my fave psych subjects/specialties EVER. :smthumbup:


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

:rofl:


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I think I just got one of my very rare moderator deletes. I bet I lost some likes on that one.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I gave you another one, Larry.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Darnit. I want to know what Larry said.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

jld said:


> According to The Seven Habits of a Highly Effective People, validating people's opinions gives them psychological air. And it looks like I need to give some psychological air to the people who disagree with me. I would like to finish this post, first.


:smthumbup:

JFTR, your opinions aren't triggering me, JLD, and I'm not going to presume any sinister motives.



> Blonde, this is what I mean by validating:
> 
> Understanding Validation: A Way to Communicate Acceptance | Psychology Today
> 
> _One of the four options we have in any problem situation is acceptance. Validation is one way that we communicate acceptance of ourselves and others. *Validation doesn't mean agreeing or approving.* When your best friend or a family member makes a decision that you really don't think is wise, validation is a way of supporting them and strengthening the relationship while maintaining a different opinion. Validation is a way of communicating that the relationship is important and solid even when you disagree on issues._


If the decision involves hurting me or one of my children in any way shape or form (verbally, emotionally, physically) I cannot validate the decision. I am going to oppose the decision.

If the opinion is some version of me or one of my children being a worthless POS then I am not going to validate that opinion. I am going to disagree with that opinion strongly and vocally.

IMO a huge factor contributing to ds14 struggle with suicidal ideation is because in his mind his dad's opinions and decisions are *VALID*. At some level the boy internalized the verbal abuse and believes his dad that ds14 is the problem, defective, to blame while his dad is the Saint/Pope/Reverend H claims to be.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

^^ Yah the link title, ways to communicate acceptance presupposes acceptance to communicate.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

JLD,

In all his 3 weeks in the hospital and counseling sessions I have attended, ds has never been willing to say "the way dad treats me is a problem". He has identified school frustrations as triggering.

My perception is that ds does not want to blame or hurt his dad, he wants to cover for him and protect him (in a way). But DS told me a week or so b4 his hospitalization that next time his father tries to spank him he is going to use a fire poker to defend himself. To ME that says he's angry at his father at some level, maybe even enraged at his father? 

The LCSW was positively brilliant when H used DS's denial (of dad's impact) as evidence of H's "innocence". She said "your son is mentally ill and may not be processing things clearly". 

The LCSW told my son in one session (with me and the two sons) and H in a later session that DS is VERY LOYAL and is a peacemaker/peacekeeper. He doesn't want to hurt his dad's feelings, blame him, or make him feel rejected.... (shame that sentiment does not go vice versa )


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Blonde said:


> JLD,
> 
> In all his 3 weeks in the hospital and counseling sessions I have attended, ds has never been willing to say "the way dad treats me is a problem". He has identified school frustrations as triggering.
> 
> ...


Blonde, I will share my thoughts, and just feel free to take it or leave it, okay?

Blonde, (gently) do you think your son feels that you protect your dh, too? That while you speak up to him, there has been a reluctance to let him go? Ds loves both of you. He does not want to hurt either of you. You two are his world. So often, our children take their cues from us.

Focusing on school as the problem could be displacement. I did a lot of that when I was still at home with my parents. 

I am sure your son is furious at his dad. And anger is the second emotion. Hurt is the first. And he is realizing his power. He is starting to own it. I think that is very healthy. 

I would like to see him talk more about his feelings, just really get them out, in a safe and supportive atmosphere. They need to be heard. Just talking things out, with someone who loves and cares for us, can be so healing. And don't forget: what we do not talk out, we act out.

I don't think your son is mentally ill, fwiw. I think he was stressed out, and coped with it the best he could. Suicidal thoughts can happen, I think, as a mental escape. It was more than just ideas in your son's case, but I don't think he really wanted to go. I think he just did not know what to do with all the pressure and what he perceived as lack of support.

I know you are doing your best, Blonde, honey, but an abusive father, especially in a traditional family environment, is a huge burden on the mom and kids. Years of fearing him leave their own scars. You have done a great job owning your own power, but there are residual effects. And I am guessing the kids did not go to therapy along with you?

Your son sounds like a very sensitive, sweet boy. He is carrying a lot. I am glad the therapist is holding your husband's feet to the fire. I know you have grown a lot, but it is still very hard for a wife to hold her husband's feet to the fire, especially when she has spent a few decades deferring to him.

I really feel for you, Blonde, to be in your situation. You have had to do a 180. And now you are willing to give up your marriage for the sake of your son, and that is exactly the right thing to do. You are very brave, Blonde. That is moral courage.

Your husband is very weak, Blonde. He is trying to protect and justify himself. He does not want to be honest with himself. And he has not needed to have much practice at it. I am thankful that is changing.

I think the best thing you could do is hold your husband accountable. You have stopped having sex with him. That is very good. I cannot remember if he has moved out or not. I would guess you have all financial things in order. Some hard reality is coming to your husband. It is actually a gift to him. The rest of his life may be salvaged, if he is forced to be honest with himself.

I think the more truth that enters our lives, the more love can, too. I know it is hard, Blonde, but the more honest you can be with him, not vulnerable, but just clear and direct about his behavior, the better for your husband. I swear to God, holding our spouse's feet to the fire is a gift. It does not have to be controlling. Directness packs a powerful punch all on its own.

And remember, whatever his initial response, truth penetrates our conscience. It works on it. People often lash out at first when confronted with truth. You have to expect it. Patience. But perseverance.

(((Blonde)))


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

nuclearnightmare said:


> I did not mean to infer that all individuals with any degree of p disorder are not human. Remind me - are you BPD?
> 
> Do you consider the psychopath to be human? Technically they are. But in most important ways they are not.....IMO
> My former DIL is a pretty mean type of NPD. I think she is capable of anything, including murder. To me, she is not human.
> ...


Yes, I am a BPD'er. I also suffer from Avoidant Personality Disorder, Histrionic Personality Disorder, moderate OCD, slight paranoia, major recurrent depression, dysthymic disorder and dysphoria. That's all I can recall from my psych eval at the moment. I am lovingly referred to as a "hot mess" by my friends. 

Technically yes, everyone is human.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Blonde -- Fourteen year old boys aren't spanked. That's for toddlers. Fourteen year old boys are hit. How hard is the question. So I applaud your son for telling you he would defend himself if he's hit again although I hope it doesn't come to that because the potential for a bad ending is huge. 

Your husband has a lot of problems and your children have seen the fallout. I have no doubt the boys are more damaged than the girls because he obviously identifies with the boys. I hope counseling helps him but realistically that's a tremendous amount of work for someone who can't admit fault for anything. It will ultimately depend on just how motivated he is. Time will tell.


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## golfergirl (Dec 8, 2010)

Remember the scene in 40 year old virgin where the character Steve Carrell plays goes on a speed dating lunch and practices active listening to his potential dates? He keeps repeating their question back to them? 'How are you doing today?' And he replies, 'How are YOU doing today?' And everyone just thinks he is annoying? That's what the highlights of this topic makes me think of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> JLD...your father being NPD makes you a prime candidate for having a PD yourself and frankly, most people with a PD are able to fool a counselor because they aren't totally honest with themselves or anyone (due to the dissociative nature of the PD itself). I actually think you are showing signs of being delusional in this thread. Trying to talk to is making other people go crazy because you do sound delusional.
> 
> If two people aren't talking about the same reality there can be no understanding. Notice that really no one in this thread is agreeing with you and you are actually insulting their intelligence yet you just continue talking without hearing any of them.
> 
> The conversation you are having right now is why active listening can't work with someone who is delusional.


I've been thinking Dependant Personality Disorder for quite a while. 

Dependent personality disorder is characterized by a long-standing need for the person to be taken care of and a fear of being abandoned or separated from important individuals in his or her life. This leads the person to engage in dependent and *submissive behaviors* that are designed to elicit care-giving behaviors in others. The dependent behavior may be see as being “clingy” or “clinging on” to others, because the person fears they can’t live their lives without the help of others.

They may seek overprotection and *dominance *from others.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

pidge70 said:


> I've been thinking Dependant Personality Disorder for quite a while.
> 
> Dependent personality disorder is characterized by a long-standing need for the person to be taken care of and a fear of being abandoned or separated from important individuals in his or her life. This leads the person to engage in dependent and *submissive behaviors* that are designed to elicit care-giving behaviors in others. The dependent behavior may be see as being “clingy” or “clinging on” to others, because the person fears they can’t live their lives without the help of others.
> 
> They may seek overprotection and *dominance *from others.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Blonde said:


> JLD,
> 
> In nursing school, during the psych rotation, I learned how BPD emotional outbursts are handled. It does not involve active listening nor validation of their feelings.
> 
> ...


Yup LOL that's EXACTLY how they do it. Just reading that made me twitch 

Seriously though,that's the sort of thing that pulls you to the surface.This active listening mess drags you down deeper into your PD. 
Just my .02 on the topic.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

:iagree:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

ScarletBegonias said:


> This active listening mess drags you down deeper into your PD.


Wow Scarlet... THANKS for that! In just *eleven* words (twelve if you count "PD" as two words) you just summed up *perfectly* my feelings on this subject.

Jumping around!! :bounce: Now I KNOW I'm not crazy for feeling this way!!


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I just want to say this one time, loud and clear...

"Active Listening" has been ABANDONED by reputable marriage counselors.

It was NEVER designed for marriage counseling.

According to jld, her "source" for this therapy comes from "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Families", a book written nearly 20 years ago. A lot has happened in psychotherapy in those 20 years.

*FAIL.*


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> Wow Scarlet... THANKS for that! In just *eleven* words (twelve if you count "PD" as two words) you just summed up *perfectly* my feelings on this subject.
> 
> Jumping around!! :bounce: Now I KNOW I'm not crazy for feeling this way!!


awww that's awesome!


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> I just want to say this one time, loud and clear...
> 
> "Active Listening" has been ABANDONED by reputable marriage counselors.
> 
> ...


Sooooo....what I hear you saying is 
"It was NEVER designed for marriage counseling."
...am I right?



Sorry I just couldnt resist...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Smart azz! hahaha.


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## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> Smart azz! hahaha.


Better than being a dumb azz....


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Every time!


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

SamuraiJack said:


> Sooooo....what I hear you saying is
> "It was NEVER designed for marriage counseling."
> ...am I right?
> 
> ...


Samurai... you are CORRECT!! Bingo!! Shall I say it *one more time*, just to be *CLEAR?!?!*

:rofl:

It was NEVER designed for marriage counseling.

:rofl: :lol:


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

happy as a clam said:


> I just want to say this one time, loud and clear...
> 
> "Active Listening" has been ABANDONED by reputable marriage counselors.
> 
> ...



I didn't get that Seven Habits book anyway, even when I did try reading it in the 90s.


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