# Divorced guys, would you pay for "company"



## caliguy2349

There is another thread about online dating, and this made me think..Here are my observations..

Observations:

I have been out of dating for 6 years..It seems, online dating has changed..I rarely see attractive (real) women on traditional dating sites.. And I do not mean supermodel beauty, but just height/weight proportionate, have a job, don't have several kids etc. 

Also, while being a divorced dad, my time is more important. I have my son 35-40% of the time, need to work more hours etc..So a free night is valuable..

After divorce, I tried traditional sites... If you find that one cute girl, chances are she gets 300 emails a day..And when you finally get a date, about half the time they flake.. As well as other times they are already in a relationship, just sort of "crazy", serial daters, etc..

So, I noticed all of these sites spring up where men pay women to go on dates..This also seems to be where all the decent looking /attractive women headed. (supply and demand)

So, I put a profile on one of these sites, and get about 5 to 10 emails a day from women 20-35 years old. (compared to traditional dating where 1 BBW a month with 4 kids says you are cute)

I guess how it works is you pay the girl 150 for your date, and do whatever you want.. Sex may or may not happen, but seemingly more likely than not if there is an attraction. The girls don't "flake", and there is an endless supply of any kind of woman you want..Most have full time jobs (nurses, retail, accountants etc)

Now as for the downside, obviously you are more or less paying for sex. But on the other hand, (aside from internet banter where women post they pay for dates), men always pay for dates anyway.. The dude who married my ex wife must have spent 70k in the last year just to marry my wife... But I guess when it is "love" it isn't prostitution..(along with a guarantee of all his future earnings)

So what do you guys think? Good? bad? pathetic? I mean obviously not the most ideal situation, but it seems to be how things are headed between men and women..


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## tech-novelist

I'm married, so I'm not in the target audience, but I have some thoughts about this that might be of interest anyway.

If it were actually legitimate, it would be a bargain compared to "normal" dating.
But it sounds like a scam to me.
I wouldn't put any credence into it without some way of verifying that it actually works, and I can't see how to do that without trying it out. Do they have reviews from satisfied customers or something of the sort?


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## caliguy2349

technovelist said:


> I'm married, so I'm not in the target audience, but I have some thoughts about this that might be of interest anyway.
> 
> If it were actually legitimate, it would be a bargain compared to "normal" dating.
> But it sounds like a scam to me.
> I wouldn't put any credence into it without some way of verifying that it actually works, and I can't see how to do that without trying it out. Do they have reviews from satisfied customers or something of the sort?


It's basically the same as online dating, except you pay for the date.. Often times the girls email a price they want for your date. Usually (50-150)

I mean, in my mind, it seems these are the same types of women who used to traditionally online date, but now can get paid for it..And pick who they want to see, etc..

So yeah, it's totally legit..


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## gulfwarvet

After being divorced and the ex running off with a big chunk of money I like *****s and the fact that you know what it is going to cost up front.:smile2:


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## Rowan

I've never heard of women who used to be on traditional online dating sites migrating en masse to the sites you're describing. You're contacting an escort, whether she's got a day job or not. If you're cool with hiring a prostitute, knock yourself out and mind the legalities in your jurisdiction. But let's not pretend that it's something else.


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## ConanHub

There might be an increase in this. Women willing to sell it on the side.

Never paid for a person and I never will.

If you have the money, hire a professional. It will at least be a sure thing.

This is sad honestly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

Rowan said:


> I've never heard of women who used to be on traditional online dating sites migrating en masse to the sites you're describing. You're contacting an escort, whether she's got a day job or not. If you're cool with hiring a prostitute, knock yourself out and mind the legalities in your jurisdiction. But let's not pretend that it's something else.


I didnt say it was an en masse organized movement. As I stated, I notice there are now FEW decent looking girls on traditional sites, and dozens of NEW sites that popped up with thousands of cute girls..I don't remember these sites being around 10 years ago..You act as if "prostitutes" are not women?

What about a nice traditional girl that wants me to pay for dinner and dates for 2 months? Is that a prostitute anytime a girl doesnt pay half?


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## lifeistooshort

caliguy2349 said:


> I didnt say it was an en masse organized movement. As I stated, I notice there are now FEW decent looking girls on traditional sites, and dozens of NEW sites that popped up with thousands of cute girls..I don't remember these sites being around 10 years ago..You act as if "prostitutes" are not women?
> 
> What about a nice traditional girl that wants me to pay for dinner and dates for 2 months? Is that a prostitute anytime a girl doesnt pay half?


Yeah, it's pretty much a prostitute. The difference is that women who are really looking are open to something more, while the ones you're looking at are strictly in it to get paid. And you're not the only guy they're doing it with so if you're cool banging a chick that's probably banging a few other guys at the same time knock yourself out.

Just be clear on what it is...... you ain't getting a nice traditional girl this way. 

And if you're that fixated on the cute girls make sure you're cute too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerSelf

No I think it is a new way via internet for some young women to make a quick buck without much effort (such as sugar babies and the instagram "model"). I can't see how this can lead to an actual relationship...especially when a woman has basically other dates scheduled, ready to be paid. 

I can only see these type of women selecting a mate once they come across a guy with considerable resources.


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## caliguy2349

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah, it's pretty much a prostitute. The difference is that women who are really looking are open to something more, while the ones you're looking at are strictly in it to get paid. And you're not the only guy they're doing it with so if you're cool banging a chick that's probably banging a few other guys at the same time knock yourself out.
> 
> Just be clear on what it is...... you ain't getting a nice traditional girl this way.
> 
> And if you're that fixated on the cute girls make sure you're cute too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can see both sides. 

Let's not pretend there are loads of single, smart, and cute women who want to meet a man, pay half, and not be overly concerned with his income/status/career. That also are monogamous, only date and have sex with one guy etc. The first question usually asked is "what do you do for work". Let's not pretend the interest level doesn't vary if it is garbage man or doctor. 

Most men I know have dated and married the "good" girls who one day just say "oh. Not in love. Met someone else" after they spent hundreds of thousands supporting them over the years. 

Part of me thinks some women despise this idea because it puts an actual price on sex/company. Where as the price for "romance" is hundreds of times higher. (Dates, trips, rings, jewelry, just "the mans job" to support) etc.

What I see in real life varies greatly from the movies. Atleast in this present day and age 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holland

I know of men and women that have paid for sex and dates with professionals. Not something I would ever do because quite frankly it seems a really sad thing to have to resort to. There are plenty of great people around, if you cannot meet one then maybe the problem is with you not with everyone else.

My guess is that people that have to resort to paying for sex as a long term situation are destined for sad, lonely lives.


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## Ynot

Short answer - No!
I have tried on line dating and found it to be less than fulfilling. I understand what people say about it being the new way to meet people, but my feelings are that it reeks of desperation. All the time you spend surfing the site, sending emails, responding to emails, texting, chatting, not to mention the possible meet up and actual dates with a person who for all intents and purposes is still a stranger to you, you could be be living an active engaged life.
I much prefer meeting people in their element, which is hopefully something we share or have in common, such as a mutual like for art or exercise.
And that brings me to paying for sex. I am beyond my days of being a pvssy hound. It is no longer about a need to get off, by any means possible. Instead I am seeking a real connection, based on mutual like and attraction. The sites mentioned in the OP distills life down to the level of a commodity to be bought, sold and traded, which is far below the level I seek and/need in my life.


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## SecondTime'Round

So, these sites are different than the traditional online dating sites. You say they are somewhat of a "new" thing. How are they different from escort sites?


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## Satya

caliguy2349 said:


> It seems, online dating has changed..I rarely see attractive (real) women on traditional dating sites.. And I do not mean supermodel beauty, but just height/weight proportionate, have a job, don't have several kids etc.


This sentence is implying you find women with several kids to be unattractive. That's entirely your perogative but personally I've seen some moms with several kids that look pretty damn good for having pushed out a couple of watermelon seeds.

Women in their 30s have more of a story, so it's not going to be uncommon for them to have at least one child from a previous relationship. That's kind of the way the world is. When I was dating (I was 32-33) it was a foregone conclusion that the greatest pool of men interested were in their 40s and had at least one child at that point.

I would actually consider my online dating a success. Although I discovered my SO through a dating site technically, both he and I were much more traditionally minded when it came to dating. We didn't subscribe to that "instant gratification/tinder" kind of culture and attitude you usually see with online dating. We were both of a mind that you should practice basic human decency, even if a date doesn't work out to be very compatible, you still act polite and with class.

Anyway, paying for it is paying for it, no matter how it's marketed. Only you can decide whether it's a choice that fits in with your value system.


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## Rowan

Satya said:


> I would actually consider my online dating a success. Although I discovered my SO through a dating site technically, both he and I were much more traditionally minded when it came to dating. We didn't subscribe to that "instant gratification/tinder" kind of culture and attitude you usually see with online dating. We were both of a mind that you should practice basic human decency, even if a date doesn't work out to be very compatible, you still act polite and with class.


This is how I've approached online dating, as well. And, with the rare (glaring!) exceptions, most of the men I've encountered have been doing the same. Perhaps it's my location, or simply the demographics I selected for, but most of us seemed like sincere, polite, real people who were interested in a genuine connection and a relationship. I'm sure the hookup culture is alive and well on online dating sites. I just didn't encounter it much among the people I met via online dating.

I, also, would consider my online dating experience to be successful. I do get that it's not a method that works for everyone, though. But for me it was a very viable option, given that I live in a small town in a rural area and there aren't many opportunities to meet new people through the usual channels.


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## Elizabeth001

How can you make this statement:

Also, while being a divorced dad, my time is more important. I have my son 35-40% of the time, need to work more hours etc..So a free night is valuable..

>>>but take women with children off the table?


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## caliguy2349

I think the lines are blurred and have become more so..

Let's say i am 38, and meet a traditional 42 yr old woman with 3 kids to date.. I pay for dinner, continue to see her, take her on a vacation, help her with some bills if she has a crisis, etc.. Women would be saying "Wow, he is a great and generous man!". If I do the same for a 25 yr old with no kids, the girl would be a prostitute, and me a John.

I guess I never met a woman with a truly egalitarian view of male/female relationships..A woman who truly likes to pay half in all ways, and does not subscribe to outdated gender roles. 

Is my ex wife a prostitute? The man she married paid for her divorce attorney, he pays all the bills, takes her on vacations, bought her a big ring etc. Or is that "love"? I am guessing most of society views their relationship as "normal", but if he was simply dating her and paying her it would be some immoral form of prostitution on her end, even if she ended up with far less money. 

Sure, I would like nothing more than a cute girlfriend who pays half the bills, who cooks, would love to raise kids, etc. But as is often the case, if you are a man, and bring up "paying half", you are shamed as being cheap, not generous, not a real man, not a provider etc.


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## caliguy2349

intheory said:


> Your ex-wife must be an absolute knockout if her current husband was willing to pay $70K or so to marry her. Wow!


See, exactly..

From a female perspective, spending lots of money on a woman means she must be beautiful..

So, yeah.. You don't think many other women feel their monetary value, or want to? That's part of my point.. Ask a woman to pay half, and she usually feels ugly.. They want to be the woman that is paid for, one way or another.

Oh, and I have and would date a woman with a child.. I just meant having several is not usually desirable due to time constraints.


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## Average Joe

Yeah man, don't give up on traditional online dating just yet. I mean, I'm here cause we're going through some serious sh!t atm, but I'm confident we'll pull through. My computor wife is an exceptional human, in the end. Coming out of a divorce prior to her, I dove in carefully.

Rather than pay for a date, maybe pay someone to write a killer profile for you. I went through many rounds of rewrites on mine before i felt it was golden, then published it. The site even liked my pics so much that they asked if they could use them for promos, and in fact did : o And I got very smart, high-quality hits. Like a surgeon. But yeah, takes time ... lots of trash bags out there (girls and guys), as you know.

W kinda sucks at marketing (I do all of her marketing now) so her bff wrote hers, and I jumped on it immediately.

One "fishing" technique I liked to use was, when I found a profile I liked, I would re-jigger mine just slightly to align exactly with hers (of course, only if we were generally compatible to begin with). Then wink. Or just wait it out a bit and wait for a very surprised message. You gotta have an exceptionally intriguing, arresting main profile image though, and a fun name doesn't hurt, either. Fun and smart ... the two biggies.

In the end I actually made some interesting friends before W eventually came along.

We even had our profiles mounted and framed at our wedding. Even just 2 nights ago, we were reminiscing fondly about that experience. (Yeah yeah we were with our therapist. But still, good times )


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## Rowan

caliguy2349 said:


> Let's say i am 38, and meet a traditional 42 yr old woman with 3 kids to date.. I pay for dinner, continue to see her, take her on a vacation, help her with some bills if she has a crisis, etc.. Women would be saying "Wow, he is a great and generous man!". If I do the same for a 25 yr old with no kids, the girl would be a prostitute, and me a John.


I would not think either woman in your scenario was a prostitute, unless she actually was one. A gold-digger? That, now, sounds entirely likely. I would think that, no matter the woman's age, if you're paying for everything, taking her on vacations, helping with her bills, etc. that you're being taken advantage of. Whether or not you're volunteering to be taken advantage of is a bit unclear. 

If you are not encountering women who are wiling to be a financial partner, as well as a partner in other ways, it might be time to really examine the parameters you're using to select dates. If you don't want to be a sugar-daddy or support a woman, don't date women who are looking for those things. Don't offer to pay more than you're happy to pay, don't spend more than you're comfortable spending, and don't rescue damsels who need financial help supporting themselves.


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## caliguy2349

intheory said:


> Physical beauty is a resource. In the modeling industry, it's reduced to a straightforward financial transaction: looks for cash.
> 
> But physical beauty helps both men and women have much better lives. It's been studied and documented. No I don't have any sources to quote. You could search on it if you wanted to investigate.
> 
> Traditionally, and today, women are still greatly evaluated and given worth, relative to their looks. Who are we trying to kid?


Exactly. This is obvious and my point. 

Which is why sites in which you pay for dates are populated by single beautiful women. In my opinion it seems to be much more so than 6 to 10 years ago. Women caught on, and it seems to be moving in this direction. Technology makes this change easily possible. 

A girl can put a profile on pof and pick who she wants or other sites, pick who she wants and get paid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SARAHMCD

I must be dating all wrong.....paying her bills, taking her on vacation, paying for all dinners? Wow. What kind of women are you dating?

If the first date is going well, I would expect the guy to pick up the tab. To me, it shows his interest and is just, well, gentlemanly. Beyond that, I would expect to go 50/50 or I'll get lunch, you get dinner, kind of thing.


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> Exactly. This is obvious and my point.
> 
> Which is why sites in which you pay for dates are populated by single beautiful women. In my opinion it seems to be much more so than 6 to 10 years ago. Women caught on, and it seems to be moving in this direction. Technology makes this change easily possible.
> 
> A girl can put a profile on pof and pick who she wants or other sites, pick who she wants and get paid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I don't think a woman going on a site to get paid is looking for a potential LTR. She's looking to make money. I don't think you will find love there. If all you want is ONS, sure.


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## caliguy2349

SARAHMCD said:


> I must be dating all wrong.....paying her bills, taking her on vacation, paying for all dinners? Wow. What kind of women are you dating?
> 
> If the first date is going well, I would expect the guy to pick up the tab. To me, it shows his interest and is just, well, gentlemanly. Beyond that, I would expect to go 50/50 or I'll get lunch, you get dinner, kind of thing.


Would you have sex with him if he didn't pay? Or said " here is my half"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> Would you have sex with him if he didn't pay? Or said " here is my half"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I've dated several guys I've met online for extended periods. Sex was involved. Expect him to pay what???


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## caliguy2349

You said you expect him to pay for the first date. So I asked if he suggested paying half, would you have sex with him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

Holland said:


> I know of men and women that have paid for sex and dates with professionals. Not something I would ever do because quite frankly it seems a really sad thing to have to resort to. There are plenty of great people around, if you cannot meet one then maybe the problem is with you not with everyone else.
> 
> My guess is that people that have to resort to paying for sex as a long term situation are destined for sad, lonely lives.


There is a reason that almost no women do this.
Namely, women can find a man at least as attractive as they are to have sex with, without paying.
Men don't have that luxury.


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## caliguy2349

technovelist said:


> There is a reason that almost no women do this.
> Namely, women can find a man at least as attractive as they are to have sex with, without paying.
> Men don't have that luxury.


Exactly. This only happens on internet message boards when people debate. Attractive young women hiring male escorts. Maybe 1 in 10 million.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> You said you expect him to pay for the first date. So I asked if he suggested paying half, would you have sex with him
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is a lesson I personally learned. I dated a guy who insisted from date one that we split the bill, every bill (even though I knew he was expensing a lot of his meals with his company). We did eventually sleep together. But he treated the relationship the same way -without a whole lot of interest. 

So the lesson I learned is to make sure they are actually interested in putting in some effort. I wasn't just "convenient". So yes, if a guy doesn't pick up the tab on the first date (if there isn't extenuating circumstances of some kind) then I likely wouldn't give him a second date, so no, I wouldn't sleep with him. 

I don't think what I just described is proving your point though. I'm expecting someone to pick up a tab for a couple of drinks, not a 5-course meal. If that's too much for him, he's really not that "into me".


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## Rowan

I don't have sex on the first date. But I've had a relationship, that became sexual in due course, with a man with whom I split the tab on the first date.


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## tom67

I found something even more crazy in the UK these women are called rinsers.
They ask for stuff from rich guys but there is no sex.:surprise:
To each their own I guess.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgC9Z3uzPgY


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## caliguy2349

SARAHMCD said:


> This is a lesson I personally learned. I dated a guy who insisted from date one that we split the bill, every bill (even though I knew he was expensing a lot of his meals with his company). We did eventually sleep together. But he treated the relationship the same way -without a whole lot of interest.
> 
> So the lesson I learned is to make sure they are actually interested in putting in some effort. I wasn't just "convenient". So yes, if a guy doesn't pick up the tab on the first date (if there isn't extenuating circumstances of some kind) then I likely wouldn't give him a second date, so no, I wouldn't sleep with him.
> 
> I don't think what I just described is proving your point though. I'm expecting someone to pick up a tab for a couple of drinks, not a 5-course meal. If that's too much for him, he's really not that "into me".


A few points. 

A. Paying for a few drinks is a pretty low level of effort, so of money equals effort, you see why women who think they have a high value go one step further and charge for a date. Same concept. 

B. once again the lines are blurred wen money equals being a gentleman. This is very open ended. And for most men , once you start paying it doesn't stop. Every single man can say "yeah after paying for the first date I had a bad experience where I always had to pay, this I won't anymore"

C. Why not make it simple. At the end of the date as the woman way "hey. Had a great time. Would love to again. I insist on paying half". Clears all confusion
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> A few points.
> 
> A. Paying for a few drinks is a pretty low level of effort, so of money equals effort, you see why women who think they have a high value go one step further and charge for a date. Same concept.
> 
> B. once again the lines are blurred wen money equals being a gentleman. This is very open ended. And for most men , once you start paying it doesn't stop. Every single man can say "yeah after paying for the first date I had a bad experience where I always had to pay, this I won't anymore"
> 
> C. Why not make it simple. At the end of the date as the woman way "hey. Had a great time. Would love to again. I insist on paying half". Clears all confusion
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If the woman you're dating never offers to pay - when you reach date 3 or 4 (or offers to cook you a meal or buy tickets for something, etc) then she isn't the right woman for you. You want someone independent right? Stop dating her. 

As for point C, I always offer. Most men wave you off, some will get a bit insulted (as another poster said).


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## Tulanian

intheory said:


> Physical beauty... helps both men and women have much better lives. It's been studied and documented. No I don't have any sources to quote. You could search on it if you wanted to investigate.
> 
> Traditionally, and today, women are still greatly evaluated and given worth, relative to their looks. Who are we trying to kid?


To some limited extent, I believe men are, too. At least, if the job involves appearing in public. I'm a lawyer, which means I have to appear in court in front of judges, and sometimes jurors. For some stupid reason, looks have an effect in that setting. While I don't think I'm some dazzling guy, I'm reasonably close to traditional notions of "handsome" (albeit too heavy now). I'm sure that has helped me get jobs that I wouldn't have gotten if I was ugly.


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## Tulanian

As for paying a woman for a date, which is 99% of the way to paying for sex, it seems to me there are three levels to it:

1) Legal - As an attorney I'm not going to risk being snagged for solicitation. The word games that people play on these websites aren't nearly as effective as they THINK they are. And cops use those sites to set up john stings.

2) Moral - While I'm no longer religious, I did grow up with a very traditional Baptist viewpoint on things. Going to prostitutes doesn't sit well with me. Beyond religious values, there's the fact that I know a lot of sex workers are coerced into the trade one way or another, and I don't want to participate in that. But...I have no moral problem with the abstract, coercion-free idea of people exchanging value for sex. If it's all really consensual, what other folks choose to do with their bodies is not my concern.

3) Emotional - this is where it really gets bad, IMHO. While I've never been to a prostitute, I have gone to strip clubs. Just recently I got my first lap dance. The woman (girl, really, given her age) was very beautiful, with a slim figure curvy in all the right ways, and none of the ill effects of aging to show yet. Being that close to a beautiful woman is, of course, enjoyable. Yet it was also immensely depressing, because I knew there was no way someone who looked like that would be rubbing up and down on me if I wasn't paying her. If anything, it was a reminder that I CAN'T just go out and get the kind of women who attract me, not at my age with my weight. Had we gone so far as to have sex, it would have felt worse in the end.


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## caliguy2349

I need to start a new dating site. Call it modernwomen.com

These are beautiful women who insist on paying half throughout the relationship and men who are willing to oblige.(since women think men are offended if they genuinely want to split bills)

This is the type of site that should take off in the changing face of male and female gender roles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth001

For first dates, I pick up the whole check. I don't like feeling obligated to anyone for anything. If that hurts his pvssy, then he's not the one for me. Hardcore feminist: no. Independent: definitely.


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## thread the needle

How about singleswithacluelookingforrealisticconnections.com where everyone lists moderator verified height and weight and doesnt list a litany of stupid $hit like I like to have fun and looks are rated and you can't date above your rating and you get run off if you are nuts or $hitty and you have to answer lie detector questions for the top 25 biggest lies told on dating sites?


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## Rowan

thread the needle said:


> How about singleswithacluelookingforrealisticconnections.com where everyone lists moderator verified height and weight and doesnt list a litany of stupid $hit like I like to have fun and looks are rated and you can't date above your rating and you get run off if you are nuts or $hitty and you have to answer lie detector questions for the top 25 biggest lies told on dating sites?


Sign me up! :smthumbup:


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## jb02157

How is this not prosititution? Ok so it's not 100% that you will get sex, but pretty close. I don't see why you would pay all that money and not get anything in return. Sounds like being married to me...hehe. If you're willing to pay for company, then why not just pay a hooker and increase the odds to 100%


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## zillard

Pay a woman to hang out with me? H3ll no. 

I'd rather read a book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

jb02157 said:


> How is this not prosititution? Ok so it's not 100% that you will get sex, but pretty close. I don't see why you would pay all that money and not get anything in return. Sounds like being married to me...hehe. If you're willing to pay for company, then why not just pay a hooker and increase the odds to 100%


A matter of convenience. There obviously would be no reason to do this if traditional dating sites were populated with attractive women who don't flake. 

Time is valuable. Time is money. 

I don't think women understand fully what dating is like for men. Even on traditional sites there are many women who respond with "pay to play?" Or are you generous? 

I even notice that girls who might be a 4 or 5 on online dating have outrageous expectations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

zillard said:


> Pay a woman to hang out with me? H3ll no.
> 
> I'd rather read a book.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do attractive women pay for your dates?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## zillard

caliguy2349 said:


> Do attractive women pay for your dates?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Most of my first/second dates cost nothing. We do sh!t outside like go hiking, meetup at the lake, etc. 

And usually, active women who like that sh!t are attractive, yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle

The escorts I see on TV when a scandal breaks on the news are very often not attractive to me. The girl that was servicing eliot spritzer for example but he looks like an alien so I guess he was dating above is level of attractiveness. I wouldn't have phucked her with someone else's pole.


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## bandit.45

I've considered it. But then I think, if I do that I would be settling for mediocrity. I'm one of those weird guys who has to have a bit of a relationship with a woman before I feel right sleeping with her. And to pay for it? No. Just no. 

I have only had one ONS in my life, and I felt cheap and worthless the next day. I would feel the same way with a hooker...probably worse.


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## Holland

technovelist said:


> There is a reason that almost no women do this.
> Namely, women can find a man at least as attractive as they are to have sex with, without paying.
> Men don't have that luxury.


Males escorts is an ever growing part of the industry here. Many women, especially professionals want great sex without the hassle of dating. It is not as uncommon as you think.


----------



## tech-novelist

Holland said:


> Males escorts is an ever growing part of the industry here. Many women, especially professionals want great sex without the hassle of dating. It is not as uncommon as you think.


Where is "here"?


----------



## Holland

Aussie


----------



## tech-novelist

Ok, maybe in Australia this is correct. 

Of course in the US prostitution is illegal almost everywhere, so it's obviously hard to come by accurate statistics, but I'd be amazed if that were 1% as much as female prostitution.


----------



## Holland

technovelist said:


> Ok, maybe in Australia this is correct.
> 
> Of course in the US prostitution is illegal almost everywhere, so it's obviously hard to come by accurate statistics, but I'd be amazed if that were 1% as much as female prostitution.


You guys would be amazed by a lot of things here. male strip clubs are becoming more and more common, women here are much freer to do what they want in this regard.

Our culture is still incredibly misogynistic and domestic violence and sexual violence is a national disgrace but it seems to me that Aussie women are much freer that American women when it comes to seeking sex and experiences.


----------



## Tulanian

Holland said:


> ...Aussie women are _*much freer than American women*_ when it comes to seeking sex and experiences.


*Breaks piggie-bank*
*Books flight to Sydney*

Seriously, though, isn't that statement true of the women in a fair number of developed countries? We seem to have our weirdo Puritan hangups pretty deeply embedded...


----------



## RandomDude

Sydney is the last place in Australia you want to be in - if you're after the true blue Aussie experience that is. Try Brisbane.


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> You guys would be amazed by a lot of things here. male strip clubs are becoming more and more common, women here are much freer to do what they want in this regard.
> 
> Our culture is still incredibly misogynistic and domestic violence and sexual violence is a national disgrace but it seems to me that Aussie women are much freer that American women when it comes to seeking sex and experiences.


Women are extremely free here to have all the sex they want. Internet is pretty anonymous. We also have male strip clubs. I mean the point of this thread is pointing out hundreds of thousands of women are getting paid for sex 

But anyway it would be like someone telling me dogs bite people. And I retort with "oh yeah. So? I know a guy who goes around biting dogs"

Like that would mean both events happen at nearly the same rate
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

RandomDude said:


> Sydney is the last place in Australia you want to be in - if you're after the true blue Aussie experience that is. Try Brisbane.


Yeah but we all know that Melbourne is the place to be if you want to live in "The Worlds most livable city" >


----------



## Thundarr

Before I would pay for the company of women I would pay for a gym membership; a personal trainer; nice clothes; nice hair cut (often); guitar lessons; a vocal coach; a hair transplant; etc. The point is I would so much rather pay for things that make women want me than to pay women to pretend to want me. Come on guys, this isn't rocket science. Paying for arse is the easy way and the lazy way. It's an indicator of why things didn't work out with women who were not paid.


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> Males escorts is an ever growing part of the industry here. Many women, especially professionals want great sex without the hassle of dating. It is not as uncommon as you think.


This is a good point too about how things are changing...

Not so much that many women pay for sex, but there use to be a more definite line..

Most women waited for marriage or a committed relationship in the past to have sex, and then there were hookers.

So if you went to a hooker, it was sort of gross.. Lot's of guys were already where you are.. There was a strong reason not to pay..

Now, as Holland points out, many women want "just sex" without dating.. And this is fairly true. 

So, that line is diminished... Both women you pay for, and women who you just pay dinner for BOTH now sleep with many men..

So with both types, more or less you take the same risks, know both types sleep around etc.. So it becomes a matter of convenience.. It's not really like one is clean and pure, and the other is just dirty..

I guess with the type you do not pay directly for, the only real difference is "Oh they might have feelings for me", that of course can go away at any point in time.. Even after being married..

And it's not like the "Good girl" you date, just dates you because of their "love", Their love is connected to what you can do for them, how you can provide for them, etc.. If you do marry, your wife still wants gifts, still wants a provider, wants a nice ring, and then will be entitled to alimony, half of assets, and child support if they just "change their mind" at any time.,. The stigma has been removed from divorce.

I guess that is why I asked divorced men this question.. When a guy marries for the first time, in most cases he is totally naive..


----------



## caliguy2349

Thundarr said:


> Before I would pay for the company of women I would pay for a gym membership; a personal trainer; nice clothes; nice hair cut (often); guitar lessons; a vocal coach; a hair transplant; etc. The point is I would so much rather pay for things that make women want me than to pay women to pretend to want me. Come on guys, this isn't rocket science. Paying for arse is the easy way and the lazy way. It's an indicator of why things didn't work out with women who were not paid.


Thats all good, but the men who get the most women have money.. You can have nice clothes, nice hair, and as gym membership, but if you live with your parents you won't be getting any women at all. 

So the question becomes do these men directly pay in an agreement? Or do they marry and then pay..


----------



## Marduk

It would seem to me that paying for sex, say, 10 times over the course of a month (which is what my base minimum is not to chew through the drywall)...

Would be far more expensive than a gym membership, some decent threads, and a few dinners.

Besides, even if it didn't work out so well, I'd still be in shape and have some decent threads. And a full belly.

Oh, and be able to look myself in the mirror.

But that's me.


----------



## caliguy2349

marduk said:


> It would seem to me that paying for sex, say, 10 times over the course of a month (which is what my base minimum is not to chew through the drywall)...
> 
> Would be far more expensive than a gym membership, some decent threads, and a few dinners.
> 
> Besides, even if it didn't work out so well, I'd still be in shape and have some decent threads. And a full belly.
> 
> Oh, and be able to look myself in the mirror.
> 
> But that's me.


I guess it all depends on which perspective..

If a woman is banging you with no commitment, and little energy or resources from you, these women used to be called easy ****s. 

Unless you are leading them on and lying, or promising things you won't deliver in the future..

But usually when I would sleep with a girl quickly, with little investment in the past, everyone would be like "Dude, you know how many guys she must be banging!!! nasty"

I mean you cant really win either way.


----------



## Marduk

caliguy2349 said:


> I guess it all depends on which perspective..
> 
> If a woman is banging you with no commitment, and little energy or resources from you, these women used to be called easy ****s.
> 
> Unless you are leading them on and lying, or promising things you won't deliver in the future..
> 
> But usually when I would sleep with a girl quickly, with little investment in the past, everyone would be like "Dude, you know how many guys she must be banging!!! nasty"
> 
> I mean you cant really win either way.


Listen man. Casual sex is just casual sex. I _personally_ don't think less of a woman if she's attracted enough to me to have sex with me but isn't interested enough in me to have a relationship with me -- maybe we don't fit, maybe it's not the right time in her life, whatever.

It doesn't mean she is morally bankrupt or broken.


----------



## caliguy2349

​


marduk said:


> Listen man. Casual sex is just casual sex. I _personally_ don't think less of a woman if she's attracted enough to me to have sex with me but isn't interested enough in me to have a relationship with me -- maybe we don't fit, maybe it's not the right time in her life, whatever.
> 
> It doesn't mean she is morally bankrupt or broken.


I understand...However OTHERS would be saying she must be easy/****ty/immoral/broken..And, there is probably a high probability she is doing the same with any other guy who invests nothing at all if she just finds him attractive..

Thats part of the lines between hookers and non hookers that is diminishing.. I would probably think a "sugar baby" type is more selective and holds herself in higher regard than a woman who just has sex with any guy she finds attractive just for the fun of it.


----------



## Thundarr

caliguy2349 said:


> Thats all good, but the men who get the most women have money.. You can have nice clothes, nice hair, and as gym membership, but if you live with your parents you won't be getting any women at all.
> 
> So the question becomes do these men directly pay in an agreement? Or do they marry and then pay..


Yea living with the parents will cramp your style. But paying for women costs money. Money that could be used on things that make women more attracted to us? You know there's a group of guys who get women to pay for them instead of the other way around. What I've seen is that money buys good looks. It's an equalizer of sorts.


----------



## caliguy2349

I guess I was trying to use logic here..

For example, let's pretend I own a mural painting business.. And I am the best at it.. So I get 300 calls a day for estimates..Now many of these people are time wasters.. Many can't afford my work, etc.. So I say "I charge 100 for an estimate", simply because I can. If I was getting 1 call a week my estimates would be free, or I would even be offering discounts to get some work.

And I can see a woman's point of view as well.. I can see why many women won't pay half, or even charge for a date.. Because there are women your boyfriend or date would have no problem paying for.. As an extreme example, pretend your date/boyfriend got a date with Adriana Lima, or Megan Fox etc.. Would he have a problem paying for the date? Uh, of course not..

So, I personally do not consider them "prostitutes", as prosittutes are usually on backpage or craigslist and have a list of prices for 20 minutes of service..

But my issue is, I really do not want to sleep with a woman more than once if there is no future/emotional connection.. I don't care to have a FWB no matter how hot she is, or if she is free etc. For me that's just a waste of time.

All I really want is a girl who I think is a 6 or 7, smart, height weight proportionate, non flaky,non serial dater etc..


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> All I really want is a girl who I think is a 6 or 7, smart, height weight proportionate, non flaky,non serial dater etc..


So all you want is a cumdump? Then go pay for it if you want and stop trying to convince others you are right.


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> So all you want is a cumdump? Then go pay for it if you want and stop trying to convince others you are right.


Huh? I think a "cum dump" is more like a fwb. I stated I don't want to sleep with a girl more than once if there is no future or emotional connection
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> Huh? I think a "cum dump" is more like a fwb. I stated I don't want to sleep with a girl more than once if there is no future or emotional connection
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The "f" in "fwb" is for friend, which implies some emotional connection. At least in my world.


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> The "f" in "fwb" is for friend, which implies some emotional connection. At least in my world.


True. I don't want to have sex with friends. Usually one or the other wants a relationship so there is a level of dishonesty. Plus it prevents you from finding a true romantic partner as your physical needs are taken care of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> True. I don't want to have sex with friends. Usually one or the other wants a relationship so there is a level of dishonesty. Plus it prevents you from finding a true romantic partner as your physical needs are taken care of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So like I said you just want a cum dump. What do you think paying for sex will do? You won't bother looking for a true romantic partner, since a) you look at as a costly transaction and b) your need is otherwise taken care of and hence you feel no need to find a true romantic partner


----------



## caliguy2349

intheory said:


> Okay, so you DON'T mind paying 100% for dates; as long as the woman is very, very beautiful. I think I misunderstood you earlier.
> 
> My take on it was wrong; I thought you really believed that women should take turns paying for dates, _as a principle._
> 
> Now it appears that you only think they should pay for dates, if they are not as attractive as Megan Fox???
> 
> I've probably got it wrong. tbh, I'm confused. Doesn't matter I guess.


I said from a woman's point of view, I can understand why they want it be paid for. You want the man you are with to view you as beautiful, right? If he insists on you paying, there are women he would have no problem paying for. Sort of a test.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> So like I said you just want a cum dump. What do you think paying for sex will do? You won't bother looking for a true romantic partner, since a) you look at as a costly transaction and b) your need is otherwise taken care of and hence you feel no need to find a true romantic partner


I never used any such word. I don't view any women like that actually. 

And it's not paying for sex directly. Not anymore than paying for dinner is paying for sex directly.

The entire premise is that traditional dating sites are filled with bbw serial daters I don't find attractive. The cuter girls realize they can charge for dates. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

What I am saying is that today, all the lines are blurred. There is always a money component. 

A. Girl charges just for a sex act 

B. girl charges for a date because she is in high demand and can. May have sex or not. 

C. Girl wants man to pay for dates and entertainment and dates many men until they find the perfect guy. She might even have a lover and uses dumb guys for entertainment. No sex doesn't mean good girl

D. Girl pays half or for all of date, but has the bigger picture in mind. (Marriage diamond ring family and possible future alimony etc). We even hear of all the girls who claim they "supported their man through med school". This was obviously with an eye on future earnings and a certain lifestyle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> I never used any such word. I don't view any women like that actually.
> 
> And it's not paying for sex directly. Not anymore than paying for dinner is paying for sex directly.
> 
> The entire premise is that traditional dating sites are filled with bbw serial daters I don't find attractive. The cuter girls realize they can charge for dates.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never said you did use such a word, I am merely clarifying what you have expressed. You want a cost effective female orifice to deposit your semen into ie a cumdump. I am not judging, if that is what you want then go for it, just admit it and stop lying to yourself and trying to convince others you are right by rationalizing it away by saying that paying for dinner is paying for sex. Your excuse might be that traditional dating sites are filled with bbw serial daters (you) don't find attractive. But the reality is that you are either too busy, too lazy or just don't care enough to make the effort to actually find some one you are attracted. Again, I am not judging, if that is the case then just do it.


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> What I am saying is that today, all the lines are blurred. There is always a money component.
> 
> A. Girl charges just for a sex act
> 
> B. girl charges for a date because she is in high demand and can. May have sex or not.
> 
> C. Girl wants man to pay for dates and entertainment and dates many men until they find the perfect guy. She might even have a lover and uses dumb guys for entertainment. No sex doesn't mean good girl
> 
> D. Girl pays half or for all of date, but has the bigger picture in mind. (Marriage diamond ring family and possible future alimony etc). We even hear of all the girls who claim they "supported their man through med school". This was obviously with an eye on future earnings and a certain lifestyle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, I hope I never get so jaded.


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## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> Wow, I hope I never get so jaded.


Well it's reality and basically biological. Like it or not what you can provide is pretty important. 

Studies always have shown women also find high earners to be funnier, more attractive etc. Subconsciously.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> I never said you did use such a word, I am merely clarifying what you have expressed. You want a cost effective female orifice to deposit your semen into ie a cumdump. I am not judging, if that is what you want then go for it, just admit it and stop lying to yourself and trying to convince others you are right by rationalizing it away by saying that paying for dinner is paying for sex. Your excuse might be that traditional dating sites are filled with bbw serial daters (you) don't find attractive. But the reality is that you are either too busy, too lazy or just don't care enough to make the effort to actually find some one you are attracted. Again, I am not judging, if that is the case then just do it.


Huh? You mean you don't want a cost effective girl to have sex with? That is a cum dump?

Not sure if it is due to the internet/reality tv/more divorce or whatever, but sex and dating seems to be more overtly monetized than back in the day. 

I mean we moved to a society where sex is for fun. Birth control. Abortions. Sex before marriage. So the next step is charging for it one way or another. Sex is no longer sacred 

If girls have no issue spreading for guys from the bar or internet strangers, not a huge leap to charge. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> Huh? You mean you don't want a cost effective girl to have sex with? That is a cum dump?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No I want to have sex with a woman as a bonus for having a connection to her, because I am not a dog looking to get off. So no that isn't a cum dump. I don't know what your story is, it appears as though you were burned in a past relationship and haven't gotten over it, so you are trying to rationalize a reason to pay for that bonus instead of earning it. As I said, I am not judging, I just wish you would be honest with yourself. Paying someone to dump your seed in is fine if that is what all you want. Go for it. But if you are really being honest, what is wrong with your hand? It is actually free.


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> Well it's reality and basically biological. Like it or not what you can provide is pretty important.
> 
> Studies always have shown women also find high earners to be funnier, more attractive etc. Subconsciously.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Money is not reality nor is it biological. You seem very shallow in your thinking. Everyone has worth and value (which is not to say they have a monetary price). If you are finding women like this, than keep looking. There are plenty of them out there who aren't that shallow.


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> No I want to have sex with a woman as a bonus for having a connection to her, because I am not a dog looking to get off. So no that isn't a cum dump. I don't know what your story is, it appears as though you were burned in a past relationship and haven't gotten over it, so you are trying to rationalize a reason to pay for that bonus instead of earning it. As I said, I am not judging, I just wish you would be honest with yourself. Paying someone to dump your seed in is fine if that is what all you want. Go for it. But if you are really being honest, what is wrong with your hand? It is actually free.


Lol. I said over and over sex without a connection is lame. 

If you find a woman you feel is beautiful, and she wants to be truly egalitarian forever, without marriage or caring about your income, then good for you. 

Most women want some form of financial security sooner or later.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> Money is not reality nor is it biological. You seem very shallow in your thinking. Everyone has worth and value (which is not to say they have a monetary price). If you are finding women like this, than keep looking. There are plenty of them out there who aren't that shallow.


Why do you think somethjng simple like hand bags became a 10 billion dollar industry. ? A 5 dollar bag can't do the job of holding a wallet and make up?

No men care if a woman has a prada bag. Or Louis vutton. It is for women to show other women they have value. "Look what my man bought me". Same with diamond rings and other jewelry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> Lol. I said over and over sex without a connection is lame.
> 
> If you find a woman you feel is beautiful, and she wants to be truly egalitarian forever, without marriage or caring about your income, then good for you.
> 
> Most women want some form of financial security sooner or later.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yet you want to pay for it instead? As I have said any number of times here - if that is what you want then go for it. Apparently money represents some sort of connection for you.
it isn't just women, most everybody wants some form of security, financial or otherwise in their lives. After all that was most of the human endeavor is about. Securing food for the meal, securing shelter from the elements, securing our lives from extermination.


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> Yet you want to pay for it instead? As I have said any number of times here - if that is what you want then go for it. Apparently money represents some sort of connection for you.
> it isn't just women, most everybody wants some form of security, financial or otherwise in their lives. After all that was most of the human endeavor is about. Securing food for the meal, securing shelter from the elements, securing our lives from extermination.


Not that I "want to", but let me explain one more time..

You are a single guy and want a special woman in your life.. You are a 7.. Options..

A. Hang out at target and ask out shoppers.

B. Go to bars.

C. Sign up for night school and hope a cute girl is there.

D. Online date

So, D is most convenient .. Yes, we value convenience.

Now on a traditional site, there are no longer 7's.. Or very few.. If you find a 7 she will get dozens of emails daily.. She wont return your email.. If she does, and if you get a date, chances are she will flake, or might.. So you waste tone of time on this scenario, and you dont know this person from Adam.. They might even be a hooker, married, ina relationship, nuts etc..


On a pay site all the girls are 7's and up.. They email you.. They return your email promptly.. If you make a date they show up..

In either case sex may or may not occur..

This is what 7's now do.. They are not on free sites, and if they are they dont last long..On free sites they also have hugely inflated egos due to all of the attention..

It's not my fault this has occured.. Just supply and demand..


----------



## caliguy2349

intheory said:


> caliguy,
> 
> If a woman puts her husband through college, then she has a right to share in the benefits; financial and otherwise that result from that investment. I would say the exact same thing if a man put his wife through school.
> 
> It's something they agree to do together. I really, really doubt that these women are already thinking about a future divorce settlement while they drudge away at a job while their boyfriend or husband attends college classes. That doesn't make sense.


Not a future divorce settlement, but a future being married to a doctor and reaping the rewards..it is not done out of the kindness of their hearts.. This usually comes up on forums like this because the woman feels burned once the guys is a doctor and leaves.

I like money for security, as do women.. And they want to marry a man that offers security, especially in case of pregnancy.. So, money is an integral part of dating and mating..Some want money up front, some don't but latch onto you for money down the line..


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> Not a future divorce settlement, but a future being married to a doctor and reaping the rewards..it is not done out of the kindness of their hearts.. This usually comes up on forums like this because the woman feels burned once the guys is a doctor and leaves.
> 
> I like money for security, as do women.. And they want to marry a man that offers security, especially in case of pregnancy.. So, money is an integral part of dating and mating..Some want money up front, some don't but latch onto you for money down the line..


Again I hope I never get as jaded as you are. i have already told you if this is what you want to, trade money for sex, then just go out and do it. Stop trying to get everyone else to agree with you. I don't know how many other posters have all told you that your thinking is warped, but for some reason you aren't seeing it. So, go, do it! And a year from now post how empty and cheap you feel knowing that you measure your success and happiness by such shallow standards.
Or maybe you could pay for a premium OLD site, after all a premium site is worth it to all those 7+ women who get tired of getting hit on by all those sub 7 guys out there.
The way you describe life is NOT the way 90% of the world sees it. But if you can live with it, it is your life.


----------



## ConanHub

caliguy2349 said:


> Not that I "want to", but let me explain one more time..
> 
> You are a single guy and want a special woman in your life.. You are a 7.. Options..
> 
> A. Hang out at target and ask out shoppers.
> 
> B. Go to bars.
> 
> C. Sign up for night school and hope a cute girl is there.
> 
> D. Online date
> 
> So, D is most convenient .. Yes, we value convenience.
> 
> Now on a traditional site, there are no longer 7's.. Or very few.. If you find a 7 she will get dozens of emails daily.. She wont return your email.. If she does, and if you get a date, chances are she will flake, or might.. So you waste tone of time on this scenario, and you dont know this person from Adam.. They might even be a hooker, married, ina relationship, nuts etc..
> 
> 
> On a pay site all the girls are 7's and up.. They email you.. They return your email promptly.. If you make a date they show up..
> 
> In either case sex may or may not occur..
> 
> This is what 7's now do.. They are not on free sites, and if they are they dont last long..On free sites they also have hugely inflated egos due to all of the attention..
> 
> It's not my fault this has occured.. Just supply and demand..


They are low level prostitutes. If you are a 7 you should have no trouble attracting women irl.

If I were to suddenly find myself single, I would not be hurting for dates from women I meet everyday.

Many of them in their 20's and early 30's and probably a 7 on most people's scale.

You are targeting prostitutes in the online world so that is what you are finding.

I see women in real life everyday that are attractive and available and don't sell their time.

You are a victim of your own, self imposed demographic.

I would never trust a woman that thought nothing of selling herself.

I don't find them attractive anyway. A crystal toilet is still a toilet and not something I want to romance and make love to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Omego

Why not search for someone in your field if work who has the same income? Women are not always dependent on men for money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

ConanHub said:


> They are low level prostitutes. If you are a 7 you should have no trouble attracting women irl.
> 
> If I were to suddenly find myself single, I would not be hurting for dates from women I meet everyday.
> 
> Many of them in their 20's and early 30's and probably a 7 on most people's scale.
> 
> You are targeting prostitutes in the online world so that is what you are finding.
> 
> I see women in real life everyday that are attractive and available and don't sell their time.
> 
> You are a victim of your own, self imposed demographic.
> 
> I would never trust a woman that thought nothing of selling herself.
> 
> I don't find them attractive anyway. A crystal toilet is still a toilet and not something I want to romance and make love to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where do you meet single women (7's)everyday that would date you? I own a construction business so work isn't the best option for me.

And they ask you out? Or you would ask them and pay for the date? Go Dutch?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

intheory said:


> It actually can be done "out of the kindness of their hearts", and of course she feels burned if she gets dumped by him when he achieves his goals . . . I mean, come on!!
> 
> If you met a woman who was a 5 or 6 (okay looking), you really liked her company; and she had several million dollars in financial assets - wouldn't she seem more attractive than if she was poor.
> 
> Men are attracted to money every bit as much as women. It's why daughters had dowries when they got married; as an incentive to attract a husband.
> 
> I know it's not most guys' thing. But if you ever watch a movie or series based on a Jane Austen novel; you'll see pretty quick that not having money, could severely limit a woman's chance of being married. It was most severe in upper classes; but it was present in lower classes as well. A girl was supposed to take something with her to her husband upon marriage.
> 
> Sorry for the boring history anecdotes. I'm just trying to say that, yes, we all are attracted to money in some degree. We have to be to survive. But not everyone expects or seeks great wealth.


Not really. I wouldn't marry an older woman. for money. Nor do I pick a female based in her earning potential. I don't meet younger women who have millions. So never even thought of it.


I Never used the words great wealth. I said security and money is always something women look at. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ConanHub

caliguy2349 said:


> Where do you meet single women (7's)everyday that would date you? I own a construction business so work isn't the best option for me.
> 
> And they ask you out? Or you would ask them and pay for the date? Go Dutch?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am fortunate in that respect I guess. I am in logistics and meet women associates all the time.

I am friendly and know how to carry a conversation. Since I am married, I don't ask them out. They will give me flirty signals and sometimes just ask me if I'm married.

I am out a lot outside of work in the gym, shopping, going to church, etc.

I get opportunities from cashiers at stores occasionally and conversations do start with other shoppers.

I got hit on last night at the checkout. I was buying cheese to go with some wine I wanted to try.

It was late and the lady at checkout started talking to me about my purchase and worked it into a proposition for an Italian dinner, she was Italian.

She was an attractive woman, my age for a change, and was interested in cooking for me.

I think it is just how you present yourself.

All you have to be is in shape, confident and friendly.

Practice up on your social skills. If you are a 7, you should have no problems.

Don't have sex as your goal. Don't ever be desperate. Be self satisfied but open and engaging.

There are a lot of good women out there and my experience has been the same everywhere except California.

In California women have shown a level of aggression that actually scares me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rowan

OP, have you considered that your contempt for women might not be any better concealed in-person than it is in your online writings? That may explain why the quality women you feel you deserve are not flocking to you. No one really enjoys being around someone who holds them in obvious disdain. 

That said, I do think that the paid (as in, there's a fee to use the site) online dating sites are more likely to attract better quality potential partners for those who are actually looking for a relationship. Perhaps trying something like a paid membership on Match or eHarmony would yield better results than the "pickup" sites like OKC or Tinder. That is, if you are actually looking for a relationship. If you just want sex, and are okay with hiring an escort and with any possible legal ramifications of that in your jurisdiction, then knock yourself out with the "$150 for a date with me" type sites you described in your OP.


----------



## LongWalk

I read an article about this sort of dating. Some woman student at NYU was explaining how high tuition fees forced her to turn to prostitution to finish university. The article discussed how the arrangment worked. The men who used the site were generally well to do and older. They had to have money. The article said that the site avoided all question of prostitution because the profiles made no mention of price per date.

The women who actually started the date by asking for money up front actually ended up getting less money than if they just went on the date. In other words if the commercial aspect was an tactful unspoken understanding, i.e., the men did not have to "admit" to paying for sex, then the value of the sex actually rose in value to them.

The men generally spent money taking the women out and sex happened on the first date but if the women found the guy creepy or too gross, they didn't have to put out. They just removed the guy from the list. After sex on the first date date the quid pro quo for the guy to give the girl a gift of cash. And the smart women cultivated the relationships that provided the right balance. A guy who pretty okay and money that covered the tuition and rent. When the relationships were regular, the women often got debit cards instead of cash.

For the women there was also more dignity in the transaction. They did not have to think of it as prostitution.

The women probably also got help in other ways: career advice, introductions. Some of the men were married, some not.

Both the men and women got emotionally involved to some degree. It is possible that some entered deeper relationships.

Although the men wanted to have sex with good looking young women, there was commonality of social class.

Maybe the article was in Vanity Fair.


----------



## Rowan

LW, what you describe is essentially how the "demimonde" (the half-world inhabited by rich men and their mistresses) has worked for centuries. There's just a website for it now, rather than evening salons where older madams introduce rich men to attractive young prospective mistresses. And, yes, those young women were typically from the fringes of polite society or had been well-taught to mimic that social class.


----------



## Lila

I read the OP only so ignore this post if the conversation has evolved beyond that. 

If you feel like paying $150 for a beautiful woman to pretend to genuinely enjoy spending time with you, then go for it. Just make sure you go into this with your eyes wide open. 

Understand that $150 is the fee to get her to show up. You're still responsible for paying for anything that you two do on the date. 

I would also venture to guess that if these women are in it for the sex, then the chances of having sex are low unless you yourself are beautiful. 

If you want sex and can't find a partner, then hire a professional. For a couple hundred more you're guaranteed a happy ending. 

The fact is that if you want to meet someone for a relationship, you're not going to find her this way. BUT, you might pay for some nice dates with beautiful girls.


----------



## Ynot

Yeah I have to wonder what kind of girl he thinks is going to show up and put out for a $150 when after all, they can, according to the OP, get whatever they want anytime they want. His whole argument just sounds like an excuse to use a hooker.


----------



## caliguy2349

ConanHub said:


> I am fortunate in that respect I guess. I am in logistics and meet women associates all the time.
> 
> I am friendly and know how to carry a conversation. Since I am married, I don't ask them out. They will give me flirty signals and sometimes just ask me if I'm married.
> 
> I am out a lot outside of work in the gym, shopping, going to church, etc.
> 
> I get opportunities from cashiers at stores occasionally and conversations do start with other shoppers.
> 
> I got hit on last night at the checkout. I was buying cheese to go with some wine I wanted to try.
> 
> It was late and the lady at checkout started talking to me about my purchase and worked it into a proposition for an Italian dinner, she was Italian.
> 
> She was an attractive woman, my age for a change, and was interested in cooking for me.
> 
> I think it is just how you present yourself.
> 
> All you have to be is in shape, confident and friendly.
> 
> Practice up on your social skills. If you are a 7, you should have no problems.
> 
> Don't have sex as your goal. Don't ever be desperate. Be self satisfied but open and engaging.
> 
> There are a lot of good women out there and my experience has been the same everywhere except California.
> 
> In California women have shown a level of aggression that actually scares me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some good advice here. As for myself, I can talk about any topic, but never was good at small talk or dating rituals. 

I did tell a woman at the grocery store she had a nice body and she ended up being my girlfriend for about 6 months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Elizabeth001

Omg...this is all making me scared ****less of entering the dating world again.


----------



## Marc878

Paying for it is like opening a Chtristmas present when you already know what's inside. Ok, if that's what you want. The real fun is in the hunt.

Finding the right one takes time and effort and maybe as in my case a bit of luck. I met mine on a blind date. I wasn't looking at the time but.... We were standing under the theater lights and she just looked up at me...... WHOA!!!!! You never know when or where. 

As far as paying on the date goes. I always pay no exceptions allowed. To each his/her own.

I think in time the right one will always come along. Don't rush it. I suspect that's why there are so many divorces.


----------



## Holland

Save your $150 for therapy instead OP, you come across as very bitter and jaded and your perception of reality is warped. 

If you want to pay for sex then all power to you, go and do it but don't start telling us that this is what you have to resort to because there are no decent women on standard dating sites and that all women want is money. You have to resort to this because it is you that is broken, you give off a vibe that filled with low self esteem, self hatred and very low EQ. Sounds like you have been influenced by the misogynistic MRA crew and if you don't get help soon you will become one of those bitter old men that buys a bride. 

There are plenty of decent women around, if you want to be with one then you have to be a decent man.


----------



## Wolf1974

Lol paying for dates/hookups? Umm no. If sex is all you want stay on the free websites it all over.


----------



## Thundarr

caliguy2349 said:


> I guess I was trying to use logic here..
> 
> For example, let's pretend I own a mural painting business.. And I am the best at it.. So I get 300 calls a day for estimates..Now many of these people are time wasters.. Many can't afford my work, etc.. So I say "I charge 100 for an estimate", simply because I can. If I was getting 1 call a week my estimates would be free, or I would even be offering discounts to get some work.


If happiness is getting a piece then your logic is sound. To me that would be settling.


----------



## tech-novelist

Holland said:


> Save your $150 for therapy instead OP, you come across as very bitter and jaded and your perception of reality is warped.
> 
> If you want to pay for sex then all power to you, go and do it but don't start telling us that this is what you have to resort to because there are no decent women on standard dating sites and that all women want is money. You have to resort to this because it is you that is broken, you give off a vibe that filled with low self esteem, self hatred and very low EQ. Sounds like you have been influenced by the misogynistic MRA crew and if you don't get help soon you will become one of those bitter old men that buys a bride.
> 
> There are plenty of decent women around, if you want to be with one then you have to be a decent man.


You forgot to mention that he probably has a small "member" and lives with his mother.

Other than that, great job!


----------



## Holland

technovelist said:


> You forgot to mention that he probably has a small "member" and lives with his mother.
> 
> Other than that, great job!


Well if he has a small d.ick and still lives with mummy then he will be paying for sex for some time yet. 

My point was more the blaming women for his woes, will it also be women's fault if he has a small d.ick and lives in mum's basement? 

Comes across as a classic case of it being all the other genders fault and the OP taking no responsibility that he is not successful in dating. Plenty of other people are out there having a ball, maybe some introspection is needed here.


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> Well if he has a small d.ick and still lives with mummy then he will be paying for sex for some time yet.
> 
> My point was more the blaming women for his woes, will it also be women's fault if he has a small d.ick and lives in mum's basement?
> 
> Comes across as a classic case of it being all the other genders fault and the OP taking no responsibility that he is not successful in dating. Plenty of other people are out there having a ball, maybe some introspection is needed here.


Nine Percent of Yale Students Surveyed Say They've Accepted Money for Sex - The College Fix


Yeah yeah. Small member. Issues. Blah blah. Even just one site has 250,000 American men who pay 60 a month to find this "arrangement"

I am just pointing out a trend. Even 9 percent of Yale females admit they take money for sex. (9 percent that admit it)

You encourage women to "have sex like men" and the next logical step is that they charge. 

Are the 9 percent at Yale hookers that will never have a family or marry? Most likely nobody they meet in their future will ever know. 

So if 9 percent of the upper eschelon of society admit this, you don't think millions of other women do this? Attractive girls who actually need the money?

It's rampant. Just on one site in my city there are thousands....


Hookers no longer are only the high price hard to find escorts or street walkers. They are the girl next door who wants to have sex but would rather make a little money too instead of doing it for free. The internet enables this with a few clicks of the mouse and anonymity. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Elizabeth001

I would question if all of those profiles are even real. Did you see the interview with the X-a$hley [email protected] chick?


----------



## tech-novelist

caliguy2349 said:


> Nine Percent of Yale Students Surveyed Say They've Accepted Money for Sex - The College Fix
> 
> 
> Yeah yeah. Small member. Issues. Blah blah. Even just one site has 250,000 American men who pay 60 a month to find this "arrangement"
> 
> I am just pointing out a trend. Even 9 percent of Yale females admit they take money for sex. (9 percent that admit it)


Actually it said 9% of Yale *students*, not *female students*. Why would you think it was only females? Are you a misogynist? >


----------



## Ynot

technovelist said:


> Actually it said 9% of Yale *students*, not *female students*. Why would you think it was only females? Are you a misogynist? >


Not to mention the survey population consisted of only about 40 students. All of whom chose to take a workshop on abnormal sexuality on a Saturday. So 9% of about 40 students out a student population of over 6500 is the proof we need to convince us that this is a growing trend? Oooooooo-K!


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> Not to mention the survey population consisted of only about 40 students. All of whom chose to take a workshop on abnormal sexuality on a Saturday. So 9% of about 40 students out a student population of over 6500 is the proof we need to convince us that this is a growing trend? Oooooooo-K!


In most nations 25 to 95 percent of men have paid directly for sex. Which means there must be a lot of hookers. 

I think most would agree more women have sex before marriage today. And more sexual partners than say decades ago. Common sense would follow more women also charge for sex. Overtly. Not rocket science. 


I know why women get so mad about this. Because SEX is the main thing young women have to offer today. Traditional duties have changed, so instead of cooking, cleaning, etc what they offer is sex. So it is depressing that men can get any hot girl they want with the click of a mouse for a low price. Admittedly the non hookers often times have just as many partners anyway 

The only retort is "your a loser. You have to pay for sex. Get some help". 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr

I'm glad to be in a happy (and stable) marriage because it seems like the dating scene sucks later in life. That makes since given that when younger, we had big social groups due to high school and college. Plus when older there's often careers, kids, and ex wives and husbands, emotional baggage, etc. If single again, I don't think I would pay for sex though. Not because I think it's a terrible thing but instead I just don't think I'd like it with someone who wasn't either into me or h0rny for me.

As far as things changing? I don't think men and women have changed all that much. It's just that the internet and social media connects us more now than in the past. There has been a lot of young women willing to escort or dance to pay for college for a few decades now. Some young men too I guess but it's a smaller market. I don't know how many but 9% would not surprise me and of course this isn't something people admit to later on. It's categorized under 'the past is the past'.


----------



## Elizabeth001

caliguy2349 said:


> I know why women get so mad about this. Because SEX is the main thing young women have to offer today. Traditional duties have changed, so instead of cooking, cleaning, etc what they offer is sex.]



Wtf? Uhhhh....yeah. No wonder you do have to pay for it. Good grief.


----------



## caliguy2349

Thundarr said:


> .
> 
> As far as things changing? I don't think men and women have changed all that much. It's just that the internet and social media connects us more now than in the past. There has been a lot of young women willing to escort or dance to pay for college for a few decades now. Some young men too I guess but it's a smaller market. I don't know how many but 9% would not surprise me and of course this isn't something people admit to later on. It's categorized under 'the past is the past'.


True. Maybe similar to how more men and women look at porn now than before the internet because it is so easy to access

I think what most of these women want is an "arrangement" with one guy. A marriage is another form of an arrangement, but even when that is over one party is still paid for years.(and entitled to retirement half of all things etc)

I guess some girls are jealous and maybe feel better by calling them hookers because men feel they are good enough to pay for their time? But which women don't like gifts, vacations, money?

Really never met a girl or heard of one who didn't like the above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

caliguy2349 said:


> True. Maybe similar to how more men and women look at porn now than before the internet because it is so easy to access
> 
> I think what most of these women want is an "arrangement" with one guy. A marriage is another form of an arrangement, but even when that is over one party is still paid for years.(and entitled to retirement half of all things etc)
> 
> *I guess some girls are jealous and maybe feel better by calling them hookers because men feel they are good enough to pay for their time? But which women don't like gifts, vacations, money?
> *
> Really never met a girl or heard of one who didn't like the above.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are making a complete knob of yourself with this stuff >>

Getting paid for sex makes someone a hooker, prostitute, sex work, escort etc it has nothing to do with jealousy. Is crazy town to think that women are jealous of those that charge for sex, do you really believe that the rest of us non chargers are jealous of those that either have no self esteem or are poor so have to charge for sex? 

A person that charges for sex is not doing it because they are "good enough" to get paid for it, they do it because there is a market for their service, all power to them but they can have that life. Those of us that do not need to trade sex for money are pretty darn happy about it, for me it would be a terrible place to be. 

Oh and I like gifts, holidays and money but I can afford to pay for my own.

Not sure why you are so hell bent of selling this notion that sex workers are better than the rest of us, are you trying to convince us or yourself because you can't get any without paying?


----------



## Woodchuck

Pathetic.....Not many cute 30 yo women out there with no baggage...fewer at 40...Do the Math....


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> You are making a complete knob of yourself with this stuff >>
> 
> Getting paid for sex makes someone a hooker, prostitute, sex work, escort etc it has nothing to do with jealousy. Is crazy town to think that women are jealous of those that charge for sex, do you really believe that the rest of us non chargers are jealous of those that either have no self esteem or are poor so have to charge for sex?
> 
> ?


Where is the line? If a girl won't pay for dating expenses is she a hooker? If a guy pays for dates is he a pathetic loser that is trying to pay to get sex?

So many women claim a "gentleman" pays. Starts to get confusing. I guess unless you pay too much, then the guy is pathetic piece of trash. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

intheory said:


> But women, like men, want the most attractive man possible. What about 5 women who want men who are 8's or 9's?
> 
> Woman can have particular types they are into. He should be well over 6'. He should have long thick hair. He should be really muscular. He should have big, dark eyes with lots of eyelashes and thick brows. Lol, do you think that any average woman can just walk out her door and meet her dream guy?
> 
> No. Women dream about the ideal man too. So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that very good-looking men might be able to capitalize on this.
> 
> Caliguy, is this really just about getting sex from young, beautiful women?
> 
> If that's all it is, then go for it. Pay for the date. Do it and do it until you get sick of it.
> 
> Or maybe you won't get sick of it, and will be fine with paying for "dates" with the prettiest girl you can find for the rest of your life.
> 
> But don't waste your time and effort thinking you want a relationship; when all you want is sex with the best looking woman possible.


Desperation is very unattractive in a man. A chap might be a 9, but if he is desperate enough for cash, he becomes unattractive. It makes the date unattractive. That 6' hunk sounds great, but a charming 5'10" man with average build will do better.

Equally, a man paying an outrageous amount to get attention is unattractive. The best way is to casually pay as if it is nothing at all.

IMO


----------



## caliguy2349

Once again. Pretend I am 38 and make 150k a year. I "fall in love" with a 45 yr old obese woman with 4 kids that is struggling because her husband ran away or died. 

I tell her "honey I love you. Let me help. ". Now that would be romantic, sweet , loving. A true man. A gentleman. Generous. Giving. Etc. 

Instead insert a 24 yr old hottie in the same scenario and she is a damn hooker. The man is a pathetic piece of garbage that hates women!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

caliguy2349 said:


> Once again. Pretend I am 38 and make 150k a year. I "fall in love" with a 45 yr old obese woman with 4 kids that is struggling because her husband ran away or died.
> 
> I tell her "honey I love you. Let me help. ". Now that would be romantic, sweet , loving. A true man. A gentleman. Generous. Giving. Etc.
> 
> Instead insert a 24 yr old hottie in the same scenario and she is a damn hooker. The man is a pathetic piece of garbage that hates women!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is indeed something in this. We often hear criticism of men for going for beauty rather than personality. The truth is there are plenty of kind beautiful women and plenty of kind rich men. There are also plenty of poor ugly women and poor ugly men.


----------



## Holland

caliguy2349 said:


> Once again. Pretend I am 38 and make 150k a year. I "fall in love" with a 45 yr old obese woman with 4 kids that is struggling because her husband ran away or died.
> 
> I tell her "honey I love you. Let me help. ". Now that would be romantic, sweet , loving. A true man. A gentleman. Generous. Giving. Etc.
> 
> Instead insert a 24 yr old hottie in the same scenario and she is a damn hooker. The man is a pathetic piece of garbage that hates women!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you help a partner out because you love them and have a life with them then that is great. It does not matter who they are, their age or what they look like.

If you are simply paying someone for the service of sex that is a completely different thing.

Nothing is wrong with either if it is how you choose to live.

What you are pushing is an agenda that you claim that all women want is money. If that is your experience and you are unhappy about it then do something positive. There are plenty of people (men and women) that use others for money but the flip side is that those being used allow it to happen.

If you don't want to be used for money then don't, simple. If you want to just have sex without a relationship and are happy to pay for it, simple, just do it.

Many of us are happy to be in or seek healthy, loving relationships. If you want that then be a healthy, loving person. If you cannot find that then look at yourself instead of blaming the world for your woes.


----------



## Ynot

Holland said:


> If you help a partner out because you love them and have a life with them then that is great. It does not matter who they are, their age or what they look like.
> 
> If you are simply paying someone for the service of sex that is a completely different thing.
> 
> Nothing is wrong with either if it is how you choose to live.
> 
> What you are pushing is an agenda that you claim that all women want is money. If that is your experience and you are unhappy about it then do something positive. There are plenty of people (men and women) that use others for money but the flip side is that those being used allow it to happen.
> 
> If you don't want to be used for money then don't, simple. If you want to just have sex without a relationship and are happy to pay for it, simple, just do it.
> 
> Many of us are happy to be in or seek healthy, loving relationships. If you want that then be a healthy, loving person. If you cannot find that then look at yourself instead of blaming the world for your woes.


I think he has been told this by about a dozen or so other posters. The OP is just looking for somebody, anybody too validate his idea. Look at how he has grasped hold of the even the most tenuous acceptance of his idea. If the OP isn't going to listen to anybody here, then WTH does he keep trying to justify his action.
This thread, his attitude and his responses all pretty much just point to the obvious - he had already paid for sex and now wants a reason not to feel like crap about himself for doing so


----------



## Elizabeth001

Ynot said:


> I think he has been told this by about a dozen or so other posters. The OP is just looking for somebody, anybody too validate his idea. Look at how he has grasped hold of the even the most tenuous acceptance of his idea. If the OP isn't going to listen to anybody here, then WTH does he keep trying to justify his action.
> 
> This thread, his attitude and his responses all pretty much just point to the obvious - he had already paid for sex and now wants a reason not to feel like crap about himself for doing so



Love it


----------



## Bobby5000

Do be careful. A man in a neighboring town paid for such a date, she went to his nice house and came back later with her boyfriend/pimp and they robbed everything. The ensuing trial posed a problem for the man to explain to his travelling wife what had occurred.


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> If you help a partner out because you love them and have a life with them then that is great. It does not matter who they are, their age or what they look like.


So if you "love" them then give them money it is ok. If you are not "in love" it is prostitution? 

If you make more than a gf and help her with bills is it prostitution?

If you take a gf on vacation because you make more money than her, is she is a prostitute?

It seems if the girlfriend asks ahead, (because she can. Supply/demand)at that point she is a prostitute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holland

caliguy2349 said:


> So if you "love" them then give them money it is ok. If you are not "in love" it is prostitution?
> 
> If you make more than a gf and help her with bills is it prostitution?
> 
> If you take a gf on vacation because you make more money than her, is she is a prostitute?
> 
> It seems if the girlfriend asks ahead, (because she can. Supply/demand)at that point she is a prostitute.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You really cannot see the difference between the two? Really? OK go and get some therapy STAT

The person asking for money up front, from an online hook up site IS NOT your GF.

I guess my partner must be a male prostitute because I have bought him gifts, dinners etc.


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> You really cannot see the difference between the two? Really? OK go and get some therapy STAT
> 
> The person asking for money up front, from an online hook up site IS NOT your GF.
> 
> I guess my partner must be a male prostitute because I have bought him gifts, dinners etc.


No I don't see much difference unless the woman views everything as 50 50 and is vehemently opposed to the concept of alimony/ child support. (Both people can pay half of children's expenses)

A truly smart but manipulative woman pays half until the man decides to marry 

Now I would really like to know how many attractive women truly feel like the above. What percent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Elizabeth001

Until you get your mental sh1t together, you don't deserve her.


----------



## caliguy2349

Another question. 

We all know a street walker for example who exchanges quick sex for money is a hooker. 

But what advice would you females give to men who date?

If she says things like "gentleman pay", is that a more covert sign of a hooker and he should run?

If she feels "turned off" because a man wants to split bills or a first date is she a hooker without knowing it?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

caliguy2349 said:


> So if you "love" them then give them money it is ok. If you are not "in love" it is prostitution?
> 
> If you make more than a gf and help her with bills is it prostitution?
> 
> If you take a gf on vacation because you make more money than her, is she is a prostitute?
> 
> It seems if the girlfriend asks ahead, (because she can. Supply/demand)at that point she is a prostitute.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now I think you push it too far. 

The difference is whether it comes from a commitment to the relationship or the attempt to get the girl into bed. The two are connected and there is an assumption that any affection towards a beautiful woman must be shallow, but I think you go to the opposite extreme.


----------



## Holland

Sorry buddy but you won't be finding an attractive, mentally balanced woman that loves life, works hard and adores her husband, they are all taken or will be by attractive, mentally healthy men that love life and adore their wives. You just aren't partner material. Until you look inwardly and fix yourself your life will be as it is now, enjoy.

Honestly, the teenagers, early 20's in my life are more balanced than you, they are out finding dates, enjoying life and experiencing it. I hope you get out of your mums basement soon, there is a wonderful world out there for those that take responsibility for their own actions.


----------



## caliguy2349

Mr The Other said:


> Now I think you push it too far.
> 
> The difference is whether it comes from a commitment to the relationship or the attempt to get the girl into bed. The two are connected and there is an assumption that any affection towards a beautiful woman must be shallow, but I think you go to the opposite extreme.


I hear you. But many guys I know in relationships are pressured to do certain things to keep their gf. 

The girl wants a certain bag. Certain trip. All of her girlfriends seem to have more things etc. How many women feel more value by having a Bigger diamond?

It doesn't always start like that, but often times morphs into it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Elizabeth001

caliguy2349 said:


> I hear you. But many guys I know in relationships are pressured to do certain things to keep their gf.
> 
> The girl wants a certain bag. Certain trip. All of her girlfriends seem to have more things etc. How many women feel more value by having a Bigger diamond?
> 
> It doesn't always start like that, but often times morphs into it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You need to ask yourself why you gravitate to this type of woman.


----------



## Holland

caliguy2349 said:


> Another question.
> 
> We all know a street walker for example who exchanges quick sex for money is a hooker.
> 
> But what advice would you females give to men who date?
> 
> If she says things like "gentleman pay", is that a more covert sign of a hooker and he should run?
> 
> If she feels "turned off" because a man wants to split bills or a first date is she a hooker without knowing it?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All the men I have seriously dated or married paid for the first few dates, not because I asked or expected but some men (IME the high earners in particular) like to pay for dates. As a healthy relationship grows then that balances out.

My SO earns around $300k p/yr, he pays for most of our entertainment expenses, I pay sometimes but he prefers to pay. he has very expensive tastes and prefers high end wines, dinners, holidays, Gold Class movies etc
I take very good care of him and provide a very nice home life. I also have a net worth in the 7 figure range so no I don't need his money.

So let me ask you, if you go on a date and the woman pays does that make you a prostitute?


----------



## DTO

Satya said:


> This sentence is implying you find women with several kids to be unattractive. That's entirely your perogative but personally I've seen some moms with several kids that look pretty damn good for having pushed out a couple of watermelon seeds.
> 
> Women in their 30s have more of a story, so it's not going to be uncommon for them to have at least one child from a previous relationship. That's kind of the way the world is. When I was dating (I was 32-33) it was a foregone conclusion that the greatest pool of men interested were in their 40s and had at least one child at that point.


Thank you (and from a guy)!

For the OP: so if women with kids, some extra pounds, or job issues are not "real women", then how big is the group that remains? How does that attitude translate into your presentation of yourself?

You are entitled to try to date whatever floats your boat, but diminishing the women who don't meet your standards speaks poorly of you. If you have an online profile that communicates a high level of choosiness, you might be turning people off at that level and missing out on some fine ladies to boot.


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> All the men I have seriously dated or married paid for the first few dates, not because I asked or expected but some men (IME the high earners in particular) like to pay for dates. As a healthy relationship grows then that balances out.
> 
> ?


Ok so the men "want to" pay, and not due to any outdated social norms, or out of fear you will reject them if they don't. Men are I guess more generous with money biologically?

Secondly, let's say it doesn't progress past 3 dates. Do you pay him back? Why are you comfortable knowing the men you dated would then have to do this all over again with several other women possibly?
But you don't, simply because you are female?

It seems to be a cop out when women rarely pay for anything, and then they think men just want to. 

So why is it bad if a man just wants to pay a woman for sex directly? He just wants to right? She just wants to. 


Oh and by the way this imbalance rarely stops after three dates. 

"Hey babe. I wined and dined you three times. Now we had sex. 50/50!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> All the men I have seriously dated or married paid for the first few dates, not because I asked or expected but some men (IME the high earners in particular) like to pay for dates. As a healthy relationship grows then that balances out.
> 
> My SO earns around $300k p/yr, he pays for most of our entertainment expenses, I pay sometimes but he prefers to pay. he has very expensive tastes and prefers high end wines, dinners, holidays, Gold Class movies etc
> I take very good care of him and provide a very nice home life. I also have a net worth in the 7 figure range so no I don't need his money.
> 
> So let me ask you, if you go on a date and the woman pays does that make you a prostitute?


To answer you question women don't pay for first dates because there is no need to play this game. Now if I stated " I would be so turned off if a woman didn't pay for me" maybe I would have a hooker mentality. 

But what you describe sounds like an arrangement. Except you make it sound like you are doing him a favor by going on expensive dates. 
And you said you are worth 7 figures. 

Now many young women are not worth 7 figures. So instead of watching a guy waste money on fancy food/dinners/over priced vacations, they would be far better served with a little help toward rent or a car payment. They would probably be totally turned off if I drank 500 dollar bottles of wine while they are financially struggling. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> Ok so the men "want to" pay, and not due to any outdated social norms, or out of fear you will reject them if they don't. Men are I guess more generous with money biologically?
> 
> Secondly, let's say it doesn't progress past 3 dates. Do you pay him back? Why are you comfortable knowing the men you dated would then have to do this all over again with several other women possibly?
> But you don't, simply because you are female?
> 
> It seems to be a cop out when women rarely pay for anything, and then they think men just want to.
> 
> So why is it bad if a man just wants to pay a woman for sex directly? He just wants to right? She just wants to.
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way this imbalance rarely stops after three dates.
> 
> "Hey babe. I wined and dined you three times. Now we had sex. 50/50!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why do you keep referring to money in biological terms. You seem totally fixated on money. Specifically your money and wanting to spend as little as possible to get sex. JUST GO DO IT FOR GOD'S SAKE AND STOP TRYING TO GET ANYONE ELSE TO JUSTIFY YOUR WARPED WORLDVIEW! How many times do you have to be told that the way you think is wrong? Try to justify it all you want, nobody else is buying it.


----------



## caliguy2349

Ynot said:


> Why do you keep referring to money in biological terms. You seem totally fixated on money. Specifically your money and wanting to spend as little as possible to get sex. JUST GO DO IT FOR GOD'S SAKE AND STOP TRYING TO GET ANYONE ELSE TO JUSTIFY YOUR WARPED WORLDVIEW! How many times do you have to be told that the way you think is wrong? Try to justify it all you want, nobody else is buying it.


Come on. Let's just admit it. 

I think women that are so adamant about this, and actually getting mad, are the women who love when men pay for them, support them, treat them, buy them gifts, earn more than them, and give them a great lifestyle and want it to be classified as "love" or "romance". 

And is that a put down? I am fixated on spending as little as possible for sex? I guess in theory money shouldn't be related at all to getting sex. Right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

caliguy2349 said:


> I hear you. But many guys I know in relationships are pressured to do certain things to keep their gf.
> 
> The girl wants a certain bag. Certain trip. All of her girlfriends seem to have more things etc. How many women feel more value by having a Bigger diamond?
> 
> It doesn't always start like that, but often times morphs into it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I met a girl yesterday in a coffee shop. We got on well and I paid for a pizza. She left this morning. Does that mean she is really cheap or really deep because a pizza would not be enough?


----------



## Mr The Other

Elizabeth001 said:


> You need to ask yourself why you gravitate to this type of woman.


Come on! This is common behaviour, not just the occasional one off. The question is how a man handles it. We live in a very commercial society and many women will not feel valued if they are not bought things. Ideally, they would have such inherent self-worth that mere trinkets would have no meaning beyond their intrinsic value, but that is not the world we live in.


----------



## soccermom2three

Elizabeth001 said:


> You need to ask yourself why you gravitate to this type of woman.


I was going ask him where the heck he's hanging out.


----------



## soccermom2three

Holland said:


> So let me ask you, if you go on a date and the woman pays does that make you a prostitute?


Yes, I wondered if those years that I made more money than my husband, was he the "prostitute" and I was the "john". :scratchhead:


----------



## caliguy2349

Mr The Other said:


> I met a girl yesterday in a coffee shop. We got on well and I paid for a pizza. She left this morning. Does that mean she is really cheap or really deep because a pizza would not be enough?


I guess it depends on who you ask. I bet many women would have plenty of nasty names for her. Lol. 

I tried to address this thread towards divorce guys because I never ask women for dating advice anymore. 

If I slept with a girl too soon girls would say she is a **** and must do it every night so I should get tested. If a girl held out, girls would be telling me she is just playing a game to look like a good girl. 

I mean other women are the first to call any woman you meet a gold digger/****/hooker/easy etc etc
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other

caliguy2349 said:


> To answer you question women don't pay for first dates because there is no need to play this game. Now if I stated " I would be so turned off if a woman didn't pay for me" maybe I would have a hooker mentality.
> 
> But what you describe sounds like an arrangement. Except you make it sound like you are doing him a favor by going on expensive dates.
> And you said you are worth 7 figures.
> 
> Now many young women are not worth 7 figures. So instead of watching a guy waste money on fancy food/dinners/over priced vacations, they would be far better served with a little help toward rent or a car payment. They would probably be totally turned off if I drank 500 dollar bottles of wine while they are financially struggling.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am a man with a very good pension, good assets and a modest car. However, I do not expect to impress any woman by showing her my pension statement. Equally, a statement of "look how much I will spend to get your attention" is unattractive. 
However, the other side of the coin is that is that I know a woman's attraction to me will be based on things like confidence and lifestyle (as well as the oft over looked thing about how well we get on). Lavishing money can be counterproductive, but not worrying about the check is attractive. Her material gain from that will be minimal, but the attraction can increase. That is where it differs from prostitution, in which if it is my last $100 or just a couple of $50 bills in my wallet makes no difference.
If you allegation is that women are as shallow as men, I agree completely. It is amusing when women try to argue otherwise. However, just as men can genuinely care for the pretty woman, so can women genuinely warm to the man who buys them flowers.
If it was just prostitution, men would woo women by investing in the woman's pension.


----------



## Mr The Other

caliguy2349 said:


> I guess it depends on who you ask. I bet many women would have plenty of nasty names for her. Lol.
> 
> I tried to address this thread towards divorced guys because I never ask women for dating advice anymore.
> 
> If I slept with a girl too soon girls would say she is a **** and must do it every night so I should get tested. If a girl held out, girls would be telling me she is just playing a game to look like a good girl.
> 
> I mean other women are the first to call any woman you meet a gold digger/****/hooker/easy etc etc[/size]


I agree. Women face a great deal of unfair judgement from men and even more from women.

I also agree that asking straight women for advice on relationships with women is a bit like asking straight men for advice relationships with straight men. Not completely pointless, but not far off.

I do not believe you are a shallow man for preferring pretty women. Equally, I do not believe women are shallow just because they are attracted to a more carefree lifestyle.

When either starts calculating the money to the complete exclusion of the relationship, that is prostitution.


----------



## Mr The Other

soccermom2three said:


> Yes, I wondered if those years that I made more money than my husband, was he the "prostitute" and I was the "john". :scratchhead:


Whilst I agree, I would also say the OP can point out that relationships like this do not tend to be stable. The fact is women and men are very broadly attracted to slightly different things and that does not make either sex more shallow than the other.


----------



## caliguy2349

Mr The Other said:


> Lavishing money can be counterproductive, but not worrying about the check is attractive. Her material gain from that will be minimal, but the attraction can increase. .


Exactly...

There is something in the dealings between the sexes, in which you can say attraction increases on the female part based on things bought for her. Like you said, that is how she feels "valued" in today's society.

I don't know how they truly think? Maybe sort of like "Wow, this guy wants to go half on the first date?? This is a sign in the future he won't 'value' me".In other words forget expensive dates, trips, vacations, bags, jewelry etc.. I mean it really only is a few dollars involved on a date..

Which is why I also used the 10 billion dollar purse industry as an example.. Completely ridiculous to me that so many women have to have a bag that says "LV" on it or "prada" or something similar just to hold a few things. (and pay well over $1,000 for a bag, or have someone pay). But maybe this is how they show their "value" to other women, as we all know men don't care..Women even rent these bags...Just shows how different we think..

And to reiterate, I wouldn't say I am "shallow" based on looks, but when I checked my matches on the free dating sites 10 minutes ago there was probably 2 out of 20 women who were not severely obese. I mean yeah, I do at least expect someone to be a healthy weight.


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> Come on. Let's just admit it.
> 
> I think women that are so adamant about this, and actually getting mad, are the women who love when men pay for them, support them, treat them, buy them gifts, earn more than them, and give them a great lifestyle and want it to be classified as "love" or "romance".
> 
> And is that a put down? I am fixated on spending as little as possible for sex? I guess in theory money shouldn't be related at all to getting sex. Right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok I'll admit YOU are adamant about paying for sex. I get it. So just go do it and stop looking far anyone to validate your worldview. If you can't see the difference in value between doing something for someone to further a relationship and doing something for someone just to get something in return, then you have bigger issues you need to fix. Go pay for it, pay for it directly and stop looking for others to validate your view point.


----------



## NoIinThreesome

I thought this was going to be an interesting thread about hiring escorts but instead it devolved into the usual "all women are *****s/there's no difference between buying a woman a purse and hiring a prostitute" trope. 

<sigh>


----------



## Holland

caliguy2349 said:


> Ok so the men "want to" pay, and not due to any outdated social norms, or out of fear you will reject them if they don't. Men are I guess more generous with money biologically?
> 
> Secondly, let's say it doesn't progress past 3 dates. Do you pay him back? Why are you comfortable knowing the men you dated would then have to do this all over again with several other women possibly?
> But you don't, simply because you are female?
> 
> It seems to be a cop out when women rarely pay for anything, and then they think men just want to.
> 
> So why is it bad if a man just wants to pay a woman for sex directly? He just wants to right? She just wants to.
> 
> 
> Oh and by the way this imbalance rarely stops after three dates.
> 
> "Hey babe. I wined and dined you three times. Now we had sex. 50/50!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


People that are well off can be much more generous and choose to pay for dates. Some men do enjoy paying for their loved ones, my Dad is in his 70's and always pays for me and my kids when we go for dinner, he still buys me groceries a few times a year because he enjoys doing it.

As for going on 3 dates then flicking the guy off, well no doubt some people do this, generally though me and my peers are more likely to know on the first date if there will be a second. I have never had someone take me on 3 dates and for the relationship to stop there. Then if it is something worth investing time into I pay for dates as well, that is pretty much the norm in my circle.

As for sex, again I like many women know very quickly if we want to have sex with a man. My time is worth more than to waste with a man that I'm not sexually interested in. Regardless of who pays if he isn't going to put out by date 3 then it goes no further.


----------



## Holland

caliguy2349 said:


> I guess it depends on who you ask. I bet many women would have plenty of nasty names for her. Lol.
> 
> *I tried to address this thread towards divorce guys because I never ask women for dating advice anymore.
> *
> If I slept with a girl too soon girls would say she is a **** and must do it every night so I should get tested. If a girl held out, girls would be telling me she is just playing a game to look like a good girl.
> 
> I mean other women are the first to call any woman you meet a gold digger/****/hooker/easy etc etc
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Firstly you are not asking for "dating" advice, paying for sex is not dating. If you think they are the same thing then that is the core of your problem.

If you want to pay for sex then just do it, not many people would really care. You are pretty much implying that ALL women are prostitutes, if you can't see why others would think that is screwed up or offensive then that is a clear indication of why you have to resort to paying for sex.

Secondly if you do really want advice about women then the best people to ask are women, just as if a woman is looking for advice about men the best people to ask are other men.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Prostitution in other words, but without the sex.

How much of the effort making the date work does the businessperson contribute?
Do the work, fork over your cash, pay for everything else, get nothing? Term you're looking for is, the john is a "pay pig", and it's a NSFW term....

could a deliberate cash gouge at men be any more blatant.


----------



## Omego

caliguy2349 said:


> And to reiterate, I wouldn't say I am "shallow" based on looks, but when I checked my matches on the free dating sites 10 minutes ago there was probably 2 out of 20 women who were not severely obese. I mean yeah, I do at least expect someone to be a healthy weight.


:scratchhead: What is this 'obese' refrain? It seems that you are caricaturing a lot. The 'fat 45 year old with 4 kids, who is poor' etc... 

It's weird. What kind of dating sites are you using? Why not gear the search results to people interested in sports, etc.?


----------



## aine

caliguy2349 said:


> Once again. Pretend I am 38 and make 150k a year. I "fall in love" with a 45 yr old obese woman with 4 kids that is struggling because her husband ran away or died.
> 
> I tell her "honey I love you. Let me help. ". Now that would be romantic, sweet , loving. A true man. A gentleman. Generous. Giving. Etc.
> 
> Instead insert a 24 yr old hottie in the same scenario and she is a damn hooker. The man is a pathetic piece of garbage that hates women!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is not so cut and dried, in the first scenario, people would automatically assume you do really love her based on the scenario. In the second scenario, it may be true love but the reality is a 24 year old hottie with a much older man.....they may be in love, but then again they may not be, it may just be a matter of exchanging what each other wants. I see it all the time esp in certain parts of the world. So you are not comparing like with like at all.

on another note, it is up to the individual man to do what he wants but I think a real man doesn't have to pay for it!


----------



## caliguy2349

Let me be more specific. I am talking more about a certain subset of women. 25 -35 years old, and somewhat attractive. 

After being on a few traditional dates, post marriage, I notice these women are overly eager to get married. To have financial security. 
I mean do they know me at all? Love me. Want to be with me forever? Or know at anytime they can marry, change mind, be taken care of, get paid?

So, sure. I paid for the first few dates.. Some chipped in to make a better impression. Some I slept with etc. 

But by no means is that "free" in the long run. They see nice home, good income, and think and mention "marriage" immediately. One girl was asking me to get her pregnant on first date. 

After being divorced a certain naievty I had is gone. 

The alternative is an arrangement. 

And yes. Getting sex is easy. For free. But not really with the types of women you want to continue to see, who are not after the bigger financial prize of marriage.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tulanian

caliguy2349 said:


> Not that I "want to", but let me explain one more time..
> 
> You are a single guy and want a special woman in your life.. You are a 7.. Options..
> 
> A. Hang out at target and ask out shoppers.
> 
> B. Go to bars.
> 
> C. Sign up for night school and hope a cute girl is there.
> 
> D. Online date
> 
> So, D is most convenient .. Yes, we value convenience.
> 
> Now on a traditional site, there are no longer 7's.. Or very few.. If you find a 7 she will get dozens of emails daily.. She wont return your email.. If she does, and if you get a date, chances are she will flake, or might.. So you waste tone of time on this scenario, and you dont know this person from Adam.. They might even be a hooker, married, ina relationship, nuts etc..
> 
> 
> On a pay site all the girls are 7's and up.. They email you.. They return your email promptly.. If you make a date they show up..
> 
> In either case sex may or may not occur..
> 
> This is what 7's now do.. They are not on free sites, and if they are they dont last long..On free sites they also have hugely inflated egos due to all of the attention..
> 
> It's not my fault this has occured.. Just supply and demand..


I've met attractive women on traditional free sites, one within the last month or so. She was beautiful and smart, we just didn't click. Granted, her message declining another date wasn't great, since she claimed to no longer be available even though she's still on all the local sites, but no worries. That was her version of being more polite than just saying "I don't think you're attractive."

That's not an online thing, per se. Long before I ever used online dating I had a girl break up with me by claiming God told her not to date me. Weird things happen with people. 

I get that dating can be a frustrating, mysterious, confusing thing. The whys and hows of finding someone attractive, having them find you attractive, feeling that emotional spark, etc make as little sense or as much sense as any other set of human interactions. 

Part of the issue here, if I may be so bold, is drawing large conclusions from small data sets. How many women on traditional sites have you interacted with? How many have done the "flaky" things you describe? No matter what your personal number is, and experience suggests that it would be really unusual if you went as high as twenty, there are MILLIONS of people who use these sites. A random handful of people can't tell you very much about millions. 

Out it another way, there are roughly seven billion people, so if the population worldwide skews toward women as it does here in the States, that means nor of three and a half billion women. That's a lot of women. How can anyone draw conclusions about women IN GENERAL from their limited personal experiences? 

My ex wife is a blonde. It didn't work out, and I'm still hurt by it. So does that mean all blondes will hurt me? The love of my life in high school was a brunette. Should I have married a brunette? I've had relationships with about twenty women in my life. What do I know of the rest of the three and a half billion?


----------



## Holland

caliguy2349 said:


> Let me be more specific. I am talking more about a certain subset of women. 25 -35 years old, and somewhat attractive.
> 
> After being on a few traditional dates, post marriage, I notice these women are overly eager to get married. To have financial security.
> I mean do they know me at all? Love me. Want to be with me forever? Or know at anytime they can marry, change mind, be taken care of, get paid?
> 
> So, sure. I paid for the first few dates.. Some chipped in to make a better impression. Some I slept with etc.
> 
> But by no means is that "free" in the long run. They see nice home, good income, and think and mention "marriage" immediately. One girl was asking me to get her pregnant on first date.
> 
> After being divorced a certain naievty I had is gone.
> 
> The alternative is an arrangement.
> 
> And yes. Getting sex is easy. For free. But not really with the types of women you want to continue to see, who are not after the bigger financial prize of marriage.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So there are different issues here. If you just want NSA sex then yeah pay for it.
If you want to meet women with a view to continue seeing them then paying for sex won't accomplish that. You can do the two things at the same time, fill the need to have sex and also still be looking for a decent relationship.

Look I get the OLD can be a nasty nightmare but it is not that different to real life. When I was OLD I would have been lucky to have had 2 out of 20 guys that were of interest but it is a numbers game and IMHO a thick skin and a SOH are vital for survival.

There are sites specific to professionals, have you tried any? It seems you are either going for or attracting the exact types you don't want.

I also very much understand the need to protect yourself financially, that is NOT a gender specific issue which you seem to be suggesting. My rule was that if it was just going to be a casual fling I had no concern about a mans assets, income or job type but for a serious relationship these things were of huge importance. My basic rule was that to qualify for LTR status he had to have at least equal assets to mine. It has worked out well here, we are on the same page when it comes to protecting our own, individual wealth and our own children's futures.
We have a good balance when it comes to everyday life, I own the house outright so no mortgage to pay. So he lives here with no rent/mortgage costs, we pay 50/50 of our daily living costs and he pays nearly 100% of entertainment and holidays. If it is a big family holiday (blended family of 5 teens) we pay basically half each. 
We pay for our own kids needs (I pay 50/50 with my ex for our kids), no way would I expect a man that is not their dad to pay for my kids, education alone is $90k per yr for my kids.

I'm not having a go at your need to protect yourself or for wanting NSA sex, totally get that and live it but seriously you come across as a woman hater. There are plenty of attractive 25-35 yr olds that work hard, have goals and good careers. But yes post divorce the world changes and we all have to protect our hearts and our bank accounts which it is very possible to do when you have the right attitude.


----------



## Rowan

intheory said:


> If, in your online dating searches, you are somehow being connected to heavy-set, middle-aged mothers with financial issues; and gals that are so loopy, that they ask a complete stranger to impregnate them - then you have to admit that you are going about it the wrong way, right?
> 
> I think it's already been mentioned; but you should invest in a premium online dating service where people take the in-depth personality/preference tests. And then you are matched only with people who meet your criteria; and vice-versa.
> 
> So, no women over 35 with children. No overweight women with buck teeth. No poor women who want a sperm donor; etc. etc.
> 
> You probably need to specify a woman who has a decent career; and is self-supporting.
> 
> 
> Seems like that would be a good investment for you.


This.

I'm sure the online dating world is riddled with guys who are overweight 50 year old smokers, looking for a 25 year old woman who's never been married, has no children, and wants babies. But I never see them. Why? Because I use dating sites that allow me to filter for compatible matches. I don't even see the guys who are outside a certain body type, are outside a certain age range, who smoke, who aren't divorced or widowed, who want children, etc. It's like they don't exist. There are other filters that I don't use but are available - career, ethnicity, income range, languages, education level, and on and on. 

I also have the option to only make my own profile visible to those I select. If a guy's profile doesn't do anything for me, he never even knows I'm on the site. If I like his profile, I make it so he can see mine. I know a number of men who do the same thing. They aren't visible to people they aren't interested in. 

The premium dating sites may involve an upfront fee to join, but they also offer more filtering and selection options. It's possible to greatly narrow the field by adjusting your selection criteria and the numbers of people who can see your profile. Doing that removes a lot of the chaos and makes online dating a much more pleasant experience. Of course, its success it still predicated on your own profile, your own attractiveness (in all dimensions) and your own attitude.


----------



## Mr The Other

intheory said:


> Why is a guy who markets his good looks "desperate" for cash? Are male models "desperate"?
> 
> No. They are smart. And in the case of a male escort, he has the upper hand. His face and body is desired by a girl/woman; who he would never date irl.
> 
> So, if she wants to pay him to accompany her on a date (not necessarily sex) - how does that make _him_ look desperate?
> 
> And as a taller woman (5'9"), the guy over 6' is always going to be much preferred over the guy who is 5'10". Why do you describe the 6' guy as a "hunk" and the shorter guy as "charming with an average build"?
> 
> There are plenty of guys over 6' tall who are lean and charming. And, of course, shorter men who are body builders, and are really boring.
> 
> Wow, we are really seeing this from opposite points of view:laugh:


I do not disagree with any of that. However, whether prostitute are male or female, their customers are almost always male. I do not doubt that Ryan Gosling could successfully charge a great deal for his company. However, even very attractive men will struggle to get a formal paying arrangement.

And, yes, just as with women, looks, charm and decency are not related to each other.


----------



## Hardtohandle

I don't know.. 

In my 20s I would say no about paying for sex when I could get it anytime I wanted.. I was a Cop and there were enough women that wanted to fvck Cops. Once I became a Detective it was even more.

But now at 48.. 

With some of the hassles I have sometimes and the frustrations of dealing with a GF ( who is a looker and somewhat a fading beauty queen ) it can be rough and annoying. That just paying at 150 dollars and fvcking someone after dinner might not be so bad.. Assuming they were of course disease free. 

For me here is the simple reality.. 

I'm not rich by any stretch of the imagination.. 
But I bring in 11k in cash each month from my pension and new job combined. My Ex wife pays me child support at the tune of 1400 a month.. My rent roll is another 2k each month.. 

So total income monthly is aprox 14.4k a month.. That is almost 173k a year.. Mind you that is clean take home.. So before taxes adding aprox 38% for taxes I make about 238k a year.. Mind you I get another 10k a year from the city and bonus of another 10k year from the new job.. So aprox 193 take home.. 

Add in now I have 2 medicals, 2 dentals, 2 eye prescription and medicine plans.

I'm 48 years old, 6'3", 235 to 240 LBS.. I'm not a fashion model but I know I'm more than decent looking.. I'm no fool I can see woman looking, just like I look at them. 25 years in the police department has taught me a few things..

I have 2 well adjusted boys.. A/B grades in school. No issues in school. No medical issues. No disciplinary issues at all.. Yes sir, No sir. Thank you and please type of kids.. 

My home is priced at 1 million dollars..

Sexually I have a medical condition along the lines of retarded ejaculation.. I could have sex with a woman every day for 7 days and not orgasm.. It takes a lot of concentration on my part to climax so I can go for a hour.. My average once I get accustomed to a woman is anywhere for 30 minutes to 1 hour. The average man is 15 to 20 minutes. Mind you that is straight fvcking.. 

My gift is my gift for gab.. I can talk and make friends.. Everyone loves to hear crazy cop stories and being in NYC I have TONS.. The GF hates it because she knows that is how I got her.. She knows her friends "enjoy" my company and she doesn't like it.. I'm the cute, funny guy..

But with ALL of that being said.. I didn't get the numbers you would expect on a online dating site.. I didn't care if a woman had no kids or 100 kids.. I was just looking at the woman.. I didn't want an extremely heavy set woman but I didn't want pencil thin either.. 

I sucked with online dating and that includes the paid ones like eharmony.. But I did pay for any website I was on even POF.. Which is where I met the GF.. 

But here is an example of a date and a story as well.

Last week went to a club in the city called Lavo.. Cost 50 dollars ( 30 men and 20 women ) to get in. Welcome to NYC... 
I paid for parking for my truck ( extra 15 for trucks ) cost me another 50.. I didn't even walk into the club yet and I am out 100 dollars.. 

Drinks were 19 dollars a pop.. 6 drinks ( 3 each )... 120 dollars.. Tip(s)40 dollars.. I was hoping for a buy back but never got one.. Though I was thanked profusely for the 20 dollar tip at the start.. The GF even asked the 3 bartenders and they didn't even have a clue what a buyback was.. ( buyback is when the bar buys you a drink for being a good tipper ). 

Mind you the music was great club music.. It was really cool.. But 260 dollars so far.. 

We went to a diner afterwards.. 40 dollars and went home.. No sex until morning.. 

Total cost 300 dollars for that night.. Mind you it was a bit on the high end for going out.. But its NOT uncommon.. I might spend that once or twice a month going out and the other weekends it might be half or nothing if we are just hanging out.. 

Sidenote: went to movies with GF and my youngest and her oldest daughter ( 2 adults, 2 kids ).. Cost me a bit over 100 dollars with tickets and popcorn and such.. 

But while at the club.. Some bit older ( or just looked older ) heavy set man was at a table with bottle service.. Bottle service start at 1000 dollars for 4 people.. I only seen 3 people there.. It was this heavy set man.. an attractive MUCH YOUNGER blonde which might have had implants or just natural and then another attractive woman standing on the chair behind him MASSAGING his back while he sort of stood there dancing in place ( if that is what you want to call it ) as he grabbed the the blonde from the back and pushed her up against him.. They eventually went to a back area that I can only assume was there for them to have Sex.. 

Mind you I'm ok with my manhood and I have no problem saying when a man is attractive, fit or both.. But this is a man I wouldn't even fvck if he was the last man on earth.. 

So I really don't think these VERY ATTRACTIVE younger woman liked him for his looks or physique.. 

Today MONEY is the new hunter gathering metric of prehistoric times.. 

I am guessing he just has that kind of money.. Money to spend 1k at a night club for table service and 150 per girl.. 

OR 

He just has that KIND OF MONEY that it makes him attractive.. I am sure if he didn't have the money he would not be attracting these types of women without paying for it.. I'm sorry I just can't see a scenario short of curing them of cancer that would make these girls stand there and massage his sweaty back and then disappear into a back room with him.

So regardless if its illegal, He paid for something he would not get otherwise from women like that.. Even if it was just buying luxury items for them on a regular basis ( sugar daddy ) for sex. 

Its all the same sh!t no matter how you slice it.. 

Granted I would rather have a women that ISN'T FAKING it for me.. But sometimes the OTHER relationship hassles and frustrations make me think let me pay for it and you can fake it and then GTFO see you next week.


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## arbitrator

*IMHO, sex is largely "a gift" that a loving couple bestows upon each other out of mutual love and respect! And from a loving connotation, while it has many redeeming intrinsic values, it's "cost" is largely dictated by the value of the active relationship itself!

If it ever comes to the point that I have "to pay" for it, then I may as well assign dollar-sign values to it and just make it an economic commodity! If I cannot have it without a balance of mutual love and respect, let's just say that I don't think that I would want to open up my pocketbook and shell out greenbacks for something that I don't exactly care to classify as the economic commodity that I earlier spoken to!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

Are you a girl over 22? Then don't even bother with online dating: Alarming graph shows what ages we find most attractive in the opposite sex | Daily Mail Online

I think if we like it or not, this is the reality. For a female youth+beauty+fertility is extremely powerful. This is what men want.. 

Now in my experience, and in the real world experiences I hear from other men and acquaintences, largely this can go a few ways when trying to court a younger attractive woman.(often times any woman).(And I don't mean 18 years old, but let's say 10 years younger)

A. Woman says things like "gentleman pay". Or does not ever pay for anything because they feel "Men just like to pay" She would never admit she cares about money.

B. Woman immediately sizes up your earning potential, status, career by asking direct questions immediately.. "What do you do, what do you drive.. Do you own or rent" Etc. Of course she would never admit she cares about money.

C. Woman is just open and says "Yes, I would like a boyfriend but would like an allowance" Instead of wining and dining, the money is put to better use by handing it to them, as younger females typically have less resources.. 

Now in A, B, And C let's assume all of these women want ONE boyfriend..

To be honest, I feel C is the most honest..Which is refreshing in a way..


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## Married but Happy

caliguy2349 said:


> Now in my experience, and in the real world experiences I hear from other men and acquaintences, largely this can go a few ways when trying to court a younger attractive woman.(often times any woman).(And I don't mean 18 years old, but let's say 10 years younger)
> 
> A. Woman says things like "gentleman pay".
> 
> B. Woman immediately sizes up your earning potential
> 
> C. Woman is just open and says "Yes, I would like a boyfriend but would like an allowance"
> QUOTE]
> 
> In my experience, there are other options. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe I'm smart enough to avoid the A, B, Cs and go for the Double-Ds! :grin2:
> 
> D1. A much younger, attractive woman who like me for who I am, doesn't care about my money, and nearly half the time takes ME out and pays, even though she earns a lot less than me. She's picking me up and taking me out this evening, actually.
> 
> D2. A younger, stunningly attractive woman with her own business, ambition, and talent, who likes me for the person I am, and has always been smart with money and frugal, and encourages me to do the same. Mutually loving and caring situation.


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## Wolf1974

I have always had better luck on the free sites rather the pay sites like match. any bad experience that I had with, being used for a free meal, or waiting around for the BBD, or the women who didn't want to date me because of what I make in bankroll was on pay sites and not the free ones. I think a lot of this has to do maybe with the area you live. I hear these horror stories about free sites and just never experienced any of them.

Really the best way to avoid feeling used for money is just make sure you are only doing what you are comfortable with the first couple of dates. Something cheap and or free. Is she is interested in you that won't matter and if she isn't then you'll know that upfront which is also good

No matter man or woman online dating is a process of weeding out the users, they are just using for different things. All that said I have never had an issue getting a date and I don't make a lot of money so more to it than just that.


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## caliguy2349

Married but Happy said:


> caliguy2349 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now in my experience, and in the real world experiences I hear from other men and acquaintences, largely this can go a few ways when trying to court a younger attractive woman.(often times any woman).(And I don't mean 18 years old, but let's say 10 years younger)
> 
> A. Woman says things like "gentleman pay".
> 
> B. Woman immediately sizes up your earning potential
> 
> C. Woman is just open and says "Yes, I would like a boyfriend but would like an allowance"
> QUOTE]
> 
> In my experience, there are other options. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe I'm smart enough to avoid the A, B, Cs and go for the Double-Ds! :grin2:
> 
> D1. A much younger, attractive woman who like me for who I am, doesn't care about my money, and nearly half the time takes ME out and pays, even though she earns a lot less than me. She's picking me up and taking me out this evening, actually.
> 
> D2. A younger, stunningly attractive woman with her own business, ambition, and talent, who likes me for the person I am, and has always been smart with money and frugal, and encourages me to do the same. Mutually loving and caring situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Younger, single, employed attractive girl picks up and takes out married man and pays? Hmmmm. Ok. Not many women I met want to date married men but I am sure there are some out there. If this is accurate perhaps she has other emotional/psychological issues?
> 
> Or maybe she is on another message board asking "Young ladies, would you pick up, take out, and pay for older married men?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...


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## tech-novelist

caliguy2349 said:


> One girl was asking me to get her pregnant on first date.


I would say that was a red flag. :surprise:


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## Married but Happy

caliguy2349 said:


> Married but Happy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Younger, single, employed attractive girl picks up and takes out married man and pays? Hmmmm. Ok. Not many women I met want to date married men but I am sure there are some out there. If this is accurate perhaps she has other emotional/psychological issues?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, no. Those clichés and stereotypes are often just sour grapes, or more of the shaming attitudes that are so common - and unjustified.
Click to expand...


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## caliguy2349

Well I say that because many women would not want to take the chance of becoming pregnant by a married man who is sort of a "friend". Would be an odd situation. 

So that type would seem a bit "different"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy

Suffice it to say that pregnancy is not even possible.


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## caliguy2349

Married but Happy said:


> Suffice it to say that pregnancy is not even possible.


Well,now i understand your screen name..


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## coffee4me

caliguy2349;13772778
I guess how it works is you pay the girl 150 for your date said:


> Please update this thread if decide to try this. I'm curious about the price. $150 seems like a starting price point. Did you read the fine print or call and ask questions? It's $150 for a date how long? There is probably a time limit so the poor girl isn't stuck on the date that never ends. I'm also guessing sex happens based not on mutual attraction but based on additional compensation for her time and services rendered.
> 
> If that's the case I recommend that you take her on a date that costs very little. You are already paying her for her time so why rack up additional costs by feeding and or entertaining her. Take her out for a walk or a drive, some coffee and an ice cream save yourself the additional expense.
> 
> I'm not saying this with a snarky tone either, from a business perspective and money for service rendered stand point; you should look into the cost of what you want and be aware of how much you are paying by the hour etc. Maybe shop around and compare prices to get the best value for your money.


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## Centurions

Greetings!

Pay for sex? Lol. No way. I got all the action I could want. You must be fvvcking up on your email chats, phone chats, or your OLD profile must suck. I signed up on POF, Match, and one or two other dating sites.

In about a week or two, I was going on two to four dates a week, plus several women from other states blowing my phone up every night for chats. I had to block off two days a week for no dates and ignore my in box and phone so I could get some sleep and just *chill* with my buddies. The dates, the constant attention from women, and lots and lots of sex, was nice to see after my divorce. The sex, the women, it's all awesome!

If you are a divorced man over 30, in decent shape, dress well, and even a modest income, damn...there's so many women eager and hungry, from say, 25 to 50, you should be *swimming* in women!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tech-novelist

Centurions said:


> Greetings!
> 
> Pay for sex? Lol. No way. I got all the action I could want. You must be fvvcking up on your email chats, phone chats, or your OLD profile must suck. I signed up on POF, Match, and one or two other dating sites.
> 
> In about a week or two, I was going on two to four dates a week, plus several women from other states blowing my phone up every night for chats. I had to block off two days a week for no dates and ignore my in box and phone so I could get some sleep and just *chill* with my buddies. The dates, the constant attention from women, and lots and lots of sex, was nice to see after my divorce. The sex, the women, it's all awesome!
> 
> If you are a divorced man over 30, in decent shape, dress well, and even a modest income, damn...there's so many women eager and hungry, from say, 25 to 50, you should be *swimming* in women!


Yes, if you are sufficiently alpha to attract them.
Many men aren't, or there wouldn't be so much prostitution, explicit or implicit.


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## caliguy2349

Well, once again, it's not "paying directly for sex". I tried to point out that in a way marriage, or paying for dates in one way or another is ultimately "paying for sex" for the vast majority of males anyway. 

What made me think was talking to a friend who is divorced, and placing a profile..I get 5 emails a day from younger very attractive women who have jobs, careers, and are serious about meeting.. Compared to regular online dating where it is simply much more time consuming/difficult to find women that compare to the ones on the "paying" site". So it is a matter of convenience as well. That same girl on the free site would get 300 emails a day from all the other dudes who want her.. So most likely she would never email me, think she is gods gift, or even see my email. 

And yes, I am sure if I wanted I could have "sex for free" all day from online dating.., Just the time and quality is usually lacking. 

The girls state what they are seeking (marriage, ltr., no strings, or sugar daddy) and you can enter an agreement with them... Now you might pay them for their time , say 100 for the first date, and then if you like each other there would be no paying at all.. Or you can pay a girl 500 to 10,000 a month to help her out, and she is your gf etc etc. of course she would want to do a "good job", or you could easily find another one. Or there is no paying at all after a while.. There are no real rules, just like traditional dating.

Once again, what people do not understand is that many of these are regular girls, who shifted from regular online dating to a site where they can meet men with more money, or men who are more serious, or in some cases I am sure it is just trade sex for money directly. many of these women are on regular dating sites..


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## Wolf1974

caliguy2349 said:


> Well, once again, it's not "paying directly for sex". I tried to point out that in a way marriage, or paying for dates in one way or another is ultimately "paying for sex" for the vast majority of males anyway.
> 
> What made me think was talking to a friend who is divorced, and placing a profile..I get 5 emails a day from younger very attractive women who have jobs, careers, and are serious about meeting.. Compared to regular online dating where it is simply much more time consuming/difficult to find women that compare to the ones on the "paying" site". So it is a matter of convenience as well. That same girl on the free site would get 300 emails a day from all the other dudes who want her.. So most likely she would never email me, think she is gods gift, or even see my email.
> 
> And yes, I am sure if I wanted I could have "sex for free" all day from online dating.., Just the time and quality is usually lacking.
> 
> The girls state what they are seeking (marriage, ltr., no strings, or sugar daddy) and you can enter an agreement with them... Now you might pay them for their time , say 100 for the first date, and then if you like each other there would be no paying at all.. Or you can pay a girl 500 to 10,000 a month to help her out, and she is your gf etc etc. of course she would want to do a "good job", or you could easily find another one. Or there is no paying at all after a while.. There are no real rules, just like traditional dating.
> 
> Once again, what people do not understand is that many of these are regular girls, who shifted from regular online dating to a site where they can meet men with more money, or men who are more serious, or in some cases I am sure it is just trade sex for money directly. many of these women are on regular dating sites..


Do you have the names of these sites or links? I am just having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around what you are talking about here. Finding dates and sex is easy in today's online world. Even average me, average looking and lower income, promise that if I broke up with my Gf today I would be able to find someone to sleep with in under a week. It's all over just look at tinder which is basically an on demand sex app.

I understand some want arrangements, I know they have websites where women are trying to land rich guys and all that but what your describing is borderline prostitution. i highly doubt you would pay a woman a 100$ + for a date and not "expect" anything in return


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## kristin2349

Wolf1974 said:


> Do you have the names of these sites or links? I am just having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around what you are talking about here. Finding dates and sex is easy in today's online world. Even average me, average looking and lower income, promise that if I broke up with my Gf today I would be able to find someone to sleep with in under a week. It's all over just look at tinder which is basically an on demand sex app.
> 
> I understand some want arrangements, I know they have websites where women are trying to land rich guys and all that but what your describing is borderline prostitution. i highly doubt you would pay a woman a 100$ + for a date and not "expect" anything in return




Here is an old Forbes magazine article about it, there is a "dating site" referenced in the article (whatsyourprice.com) and the site is still active:

Forbes Welcome


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## Wolf1974

kristin2349 said:


> Here is an old Forbes magazine article about it, there is a "dating site" referenced in the article (whatsyourprice.com) and the site is still active:
> 
> Forbes Welcome


Wow thanks for the information. I think it's ludicrous to pay for basically and escort. I guess I wouldn't call that dating but to each their own
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

Wolf1974 said:


> Wow thanks for the information. I think it's ludicrous to pay for basically and escort. I guess I wouldn't call that dating but to each their own
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Is it ludicrous to take a girl out (first date), and pay for dinner, drinks, parking etc? If you say yes, then I can understand your logic.

I think what most of the men are saying here is that sex is so easy to get these days, there is no point in spending any resources on women. (The married guy who has hot girls take him out, this guy who would be jumping on the net and banging girls for free, the other guy who makes sure to go on free dates like the park) etc. 

And I do agree. Sex is easy to get. What becomes more difficult is if you are a bit picky. Want someone attractive, younger, with a job, not bi polar etc. These women are not typically in abundance on free sites, and if they are they are inundated with emails with guys begging to take them out. 



I think times have changed and in our heads equating dating to money is still "dirty". But what already changed are the morals. It's not like the girl you pay for has any fewer partners or better morals than the girl you start sleeping with off the net with no commitment or not even knowing her. In a way , if the latter girl is cute, it is even more suspicious to me. 

I think it has blended so much because even many of the girls on tinder, pof, match etc that do reply often times ask "are you generous"?

Which means they are prostitutes. They might have a bill to pay, and for that week or day they are "selling". Then they might switch back to "traditional dating" once out of their financial mess. It's no longer street walkers and good girls.

So I guess what the payment is for is to save the time of searching through hundreds of profiles, dozens of emails, and trying to convince the tiny percentage of attractive girls on "free " sites that you are worthy to take them out. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

Wolf1974 said:


> Do you have the names of these sites or links? I am just having a lot of trouble wrapping my head around what you are talking about here. Finding dates and sex is easy in today's online world. Even average me, average looking and lower income, promise that if I broke up with my Gf today I would be able to find someone to sleep with in under a week. It's all over just look at tinder which is basically an on demand sex app.
> 
> I understand some want arrangements, I know they have websites where women are trying to land rich guys and all that but what your describing is borderline prostitution. i highly doubt you would pay a woman a 100$ + for a date and not "expect" anything in return


https://arrangementfinders.com

There is a reason I addressed this to divorced guys..

Before entering marriage, many men are a bit naive, myself included.. Biologically men even lose several IQ points when "in love"..(endorphins, other chemicals in the brain cloud judgement and is basically a built in reproductive strategy) Perhaps why women love "romance?"

I might have thought outright "paying" for sex or a gf is what losers do.. I am a big stud... Why would I pay??? So , through culture, society etc we believe in love, companionship, "taking care" of your wife etc.

But, the stigma from divorce has been removed, and it is pretty much common these days.. Over 70% of divorces are initiated by women.. So what does that mean financially?

Often times, the male paid for dating expenses.. Paid for a ring.. If you had children, often times you supported your wife.. Everything from food, to insurance, trips, gifts, car, etc etc..The amount of sex dissipates..And at any moment, she can become "unhappy", or feel the grass is greener, divorce, and yes, YOU ARE STILL PAYING HER for nothing at all. Just because the govt says so. Sure, its jaded, but also reality.

So, after going through that, any "arrangement" with younger, attractive women is far less stress, far less risky, and far cheaper. If she treats you like crap, or doesn't want to be intimate you say goodbye..If it ends you are not contractually obligated to keep paying her.. When it ends she does not now own half of the things you bought. ..That would be truly insane..


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## Lila

I don't quite understand what the point of your OP? You asked for people's opinions but if it's counter to your view, you immediately attack it. 

Are you trying to convince other single men to join these sites or are you trying to justify use of this site? 

If it's the latter, why does it matter to you if others think it's prostitution or not? Do what you want to do and stop worrying about what others think.

If it's the former, then you're probably wasting your time. You're not going to change anyone's mind. 

Some, like me, will see these sites as a prostitute haven at worst and a goldigger/Sugar daddy matching site at best. Call it the modern day courtesans, demi-monde, and Geishas. These women all had terms of service for a price, and so do the girls on those websites.

Is there anything wrong with this? I don't think so but that's just my opinion. If men want to pay beautiful girls for a date, then so be it. However having known a modern day "pay to play" woman, consider the $150 the consultation fee. This is a business transaction and any professional will tell you their job is to make their benefactor feel like he's the love of their life but the reality is they don't mix emotions with business.


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## caliguy2349

Lila said:


> I don't quite understand what the point of your OP? You asked for people's opinions but if it's counter to your view, you immediately attack it.
> 
> Are you trying to convince other single men to join these sites or are you trying to justify use of this site?
> 
> If it's the latter, why does it matter to you if others think it's prostitution or not? Do what you want to do and stop worrying about what others think.
> 
> If it's the former, then you're probably wasting your time. You're not going to change anyone's mind.
> 
> Some, like me, will see these sites as a prostitute haven at worst and a goldigger/Sugar daddy matching site at best. Call it the modern day courtesans, demi-monde, and Geishas. These women all had terms of service for a price, and so do the girls on those websites.
> 
> Is there anything wrong with this? I don't think so but that's just my opinion. If men want to pay beautiful girls for a date, then so be it. However having known a modern day "pay to play" woman, consider the $150 the consultation fee. This is a business transaction and any professional will tell you their job is to make their benefactor feel like he's the love of their life but the reality is they don't mix emotions with business.


Well, also sharing observations on my part. I mean it is somewhat new. 

In the past we had women who want sex in a relationship, escorts, and prostitutes. Now it seems to be becoming more mixed. As guys have said on this thread, sex is easy without any relationship at all. And many of the girls who just used to go home with guys for free from the club, now have a very easy route to "charge" even if it just be a few hundred a month. You have no idea if 150 is a starter fee, because it is now "regular women" who largely put a price on dating and sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila

caliguy2349 said:


> Well, also sharing observations on my part. I mean it is somewhat new.
> 
> In the past we had women who want sex in a relationship, escorts, and prostitutes. Now it seems to be becoming more mixed. As guys have said on this thread, sex is easy without any relationship at all. And many of the girls who just used to go home with guys for free from the club, now have a very easy route to "charge" even if it just be a few hundred a month. You have no idea if 150 is a starter fee, because it is now "regular women" who largely put a price on dating and sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



The part you are missing is that "these hot girls used to go home with guys for free" typically with equally attractive men, attractive defined by their standards. These sites allow for men who would otherwise not be able to get these beautiful women's attention at the club (too shy, introverted, not physically attractive, etc ) to purchase some one on one time with these girls. 

As to the $150 being a starter fee, I googled what's your worth and read some articles on it (can't paste links because I'm on my phone). According to the article, most of the "sex positive" girls start their bids at about $400+. The vast majority of the super hot girls flat out say the bid price is strictly for the date. For this reason many of the men's profiles say they won't pay unless there is sex. Of course they use innuendo to avoid sounding like prostitution but it's well understood.

It's all about supply and demand. Any beautiful girl who is willing to sell sex on a dating site for $150 with some guy she may not even find attractive is an idiot, especially if she can garner more and work less. Instead of putting up with 3 dates, just go on one date for $450. If a woman is going to prostitute herself, she might add well be smart about it. 

Of course I'm assuming these women are intelligent but if they are selling themselves for 150 a date it's highly doubtful. Beautiful, yes. Smart, No.


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## Dycedarg

What?

No. Ugh. Why is this a thing?


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## caliguy2349

I guess. But what about the women giving themselves for free or for dinner? 

And I disagree with the "equally attractive" part. The girls on these sites can pick from any attractive guy they want. Just a mouse click. Many f the same guys are on free sites too

Are you saying the men on here are only old fat and ugly?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> I guess. But what about the women giving themselves for free or for dinner?
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am very confused by this statement. Women want sex as much as men do. They are not "giving" themselves, they are active participants. 

You turn the entire idea of interaction between men and women into a business relationship. Are there gold diggers out there? Sure. Are there men who are willing to pay for these beautiful girls - to spend time with them, to have sex with them? Sure. But that is not the majority by any means. 

The majority of people are looking for a combination of love, affection, a best friend, and sex. They do not see it as a transaction but rather mutual attraction and enjoyment. Traditionally men initiate and women respond - and in a lot of marriages, this exists throughout their sex life. This led to the "chase" or the man being the one to ask the woman out and yes, to pay for the first date. This does NOT equate to prostitution on the woman's part.


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## caliguy2349

SARAHMCD said:


> I am very confused by this statement. Women want sex as much as men do. They are not "giving" themselves, they are active participants.
> 
> You turn the entire idea of interaction between men and women into a business relationship. Are there gold diggers out there? Sure. Are there men who are willing to pay for these beautiful girls - to spend time with them, to have sex with them? Sure. But that is not the majority by any means.
> 
> The majority of people are looking for a combination of love, affection, a best friend, and sex. They do not see it as a transaction but rather mutual attraction and enjoyment. Traditionally men initiate and women respond - and in a lot of marriages, this exists throughout their sex life. This led to the "chase" or the man being the one to ask the woman out and yes, to pay for the first date. This does NOT equate to prostitution on the woman's part.


Well we are talking about the majority. Correct? 

My point is that these younger pretty women you speak of who DO NOT charge typically "pre qualify" men based on money with an eye on a much more expensive prize. Marriage.
And yes, men pay for the dates anyway. 

So to say for younger beautiful women it is all about fun, sex, enjoyment and friendship, and to pretend money or status makes no difference I feel is horribly inaccurate and misleading.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

Let me give an example. 

Before I was as married I dated a very nice and pretty girl. I made more money. 

So just going on cheap dates would be $50. Even just drilling out and buying steaks costs $50. So we saw each other often. And I typically paid. 

I was easily spending 1000 a month. Over time I was buying her groceries as she would cook sometimes. So spending even more. 

I asked her to start paying more and she said "oh we never do anything expensive. I didn't think it was a big deal"

So in a way I would rather hand a girl 1000 a month which is valuable to her, and not have to to the wine and dine that is largely "just expected" because I am a guy.

And for a lot of younger girls that is a ton of money that makes a difference. These aren't professional escorts that work for an agency. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> Well we are talking about the majority. Correct?
> 
> My point is that these younger pretty women you speak of who DO NOT charge typically "pre qualify" men based on money with an eye on a much more expensive prize. Marriage.
> And yes, men pay for the dates anyway.
> 
> So to say for younger beautiful women it is all about fun, sex, enjoyment and friendship, and to pretend money or status makes no difference I feel is horribly inaccurate and misleading.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree to a point. I won't say that money or status doesn't affect how a woman (any woman) views a man. I'm going to find the guy out there that worked hard and achieved something with his life much more attractive than the guy who either doesn't work or just works to get by so he can sit on the couch and play video games. Guy #1 would be more interesting and fun to be with. 

It is more important when the woman is younger and considering starting a family that she finds someone financially stable. It sure helps if she has someone in her life that can help in the process of raising children, in more ways than one. But that is not the ONLY thing most women are looking for. 

Back to these sites where women charge for dates....I still don't get how that ever finds a LTR for either party. A woman does not normally chose someone to spend her life with JUST because he has money (obviously there are exceptions). She just may be more initially interested because of the security he may offer. She's using her beauty as a commodity to trade with in the short term. 

Just as an attractive woman receives more attention, so does a man with money (also helps if he's good looking and charming). So both may have more options in dating (a quid pro quo exchange), but neither has more potential for a successful long term relationship.


----------



## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> Let me give an example.
> 
> Before I was as married I dated a very nice and pretty girl. I made more money.
> 
> So just going on cheap dates would be $50. Even just drilling out and buying steaks costs $50. So we saw each other often. And I typically paid.
> 
> I was easily spending 1000 a month. Over time I was buying her groceries as she would cook sometimes. So spending even more.
> 
> I asked her to start paying more and she said "oh we never do anything expensive. I didn't think it was a big deal"
> 
> So in a way I would rather hand a girl 1000 a month which is valuable to her, and not have to to the wine and dine that is largely "just expected" because I am a guy.
> 
> And for a lot of younger girls that is a ton of money that makes a difference. These aren't professional escorts that work for an agency.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you'd rather have a prostitute than a girlfriend? 
You think the only reason this girl was with you was because of what you paid for?


----------



## Lila

caliguy2349 said:


> I guess. But what about the women giving themselves for free or for dinner?
> 
> And I disagree with the "equally attractive" part. The girls on these sites can pick from any attractive guy they want. Just a mouse click. Many f the same guys are on free sites too
> 
> Are you saying the men on here are only old fat and ugly?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Again, women don't "give" themselves for a meal, not unless they are destitute and starving. I don't have any friends who day " gee, he bought me dinner...guess I have to **** him now to call it even". Most women f1xk men they find attractive., whatever at means to them. 

Look, prostitutes have private lives too. Selling sex is their business. Doesn't mean they can't have "genuine" sexual relationships with men they like. A professional landscaper can work and come home to tend his homes garden, no?

And please reread my post. I said these men were probably shy, introverted, OR nor physically attractive. I'm guessing socially awkward, otherwise why pay for something they'd be able to acquire for free?


----------



## caliguy2349

SARAHMCD said:


> So you'd rather have a prostitute than a girlfriend?
> You think the only reason this girl was with you was because of what you paid for?


Either way I am spending the money. 

If I just hand her the money it is useful to her, and I don't have to do a bunch of boring wine and dine. 

If a girl charges or not, you can tell if she genuinely likes you or not. 
(Assuming you see her often)

Logically it makes more sense to me, to be paying her tent for example, than to make restaurants rich.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caliguy2349

Lila said:


> Again, women don't "give" themselves for a meal, not unless they are destitute and starving. I don't have any friends who day " gee, he bought me dinner...guess I have to **** him now to call it even". Most women f1xk men they find attractive., whatever at means to them.
> 
> Look, prostitutes have private lives too. Selling sex is their business. Doesn't mean they can't have "genuine" sexual relationships with men they like. A professional landscaper can work and come home to tend his homes garden, no?
> 
> And please reread my post. I said these men were probably shy, introverted, OR nor physically attractive. I'm guessing socially awkward, otherwise why pay for something they'd be able to acquire for free?


High grant and Charlie sheen introverted and ugly? I don't see any correlation. Plenty of married dudes are introverted and ugly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> Either way I am spending the money.
> 
> If I just hand her the money it is useful to her, and I don't have to do a bunch of boring wine and dine.
> 
> If a girl charges or not, you can tell if she genuinely likes you or not.
> (Assuming you see her often)
> 
> Logically it makes more sense to me, to be paying her tent for example, than to make restaurants rich.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its called romance. Spending time together. Enjoying and learning about each other. Pick women who don't need you to buy their groceries. Look for someone financially independent. 

Again, if you see dating a woman as just a financial transaction, stick to prostitution or escort services, or whatever you want to call these "Paid" sites.


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## Elizabeth001

caliguy2349 said:


> Let me give an example.
> 
> Before I was as married I dated a very nice and pretty girl. I made more money.
> 
> So just going on cheap dates would be $50. Even just drilling out and buying steaks costs $50. So we saw each other often. And I typically paid.
> 
> I was easily spending 1000 a month. Over time I was buying her groceries as she would cook sometimes. So spending even more.
> 
> I asked her to start paying more and she said "oh we never do anything expensive. I didn't think it was a big deal"
> 
> So in a way I would rather hand a girl 1000 a month which is valuable to her, and not have to to the wine and dine that is largely "just expected" because I am a guy.
> 
> And for a lot of younger girls that is a ton of money that makes a difference. These aren't professional escorts that work for an agency.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Don't you get something out of that $1000 too though? Meals (some prepared for you) and 50% of the fun?


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## Wolf1974

caliguy2349 said:


> https://arrangementfinders.com
> 
> There is a reason I addressed this to *divorced guys.*.
> 
> *Not sure if you are applying this Statement to me or just a general but I AM a divorced guy...and have been for 4 years.
> *
> Before entering marriage, many men are a bit naive, myself included.. Biologically men even lose several IQ points when "in love"..(endorphins, other chemicals in the brain cloud judgement and is basically a built in reproductive strategy) Perhaps why women love "romance?"
> 
> I might have thought outright "paying" for sex or a gf is what losers do.. I am a big stud... Why would I pay??? So , through culture, society etc we believe in love, companionship, "taking care" of your wife etc.
> 
> But, the stigma from divorce has been removed, and it is pretty much common these days.. Over 70% of divorces are initiated by women.. So what does that mean financially?
> 
> Often times, the male paid for dating expenses.. Paid for a ring.. If you had children, often times you supported your wife.. Everything from food, to insurance, trips, gifts, car, etc etc..The amount of sex dissipates..And at any moment, she can become "unhappy", or feel the grass is greener, divorce, and yes, YOU ARE STILL PAYING HER for nothing at all. Just because the govt says so. Sure, its jaded, but also reality.
> 
> So, after going through that, any "arrangement" with younger, attractive women is far less stress, far less risky, and far cheaper. If she treats you like crap, or doesn't want to be intimate you say goodbye..If it ends you are not contractually obligated to keep paying her.. When it ends she does not now own half of the things you bought. ..That would be truly insane..


I agree that coming out of divorce does give you a whole new perspective on dating, companionship and marriage. Where I don't agree is that paying for company is any better than paying for dates. Essentially you are paying for "arm candy" and sex vs paying for a dates which should be each paying 50-50 now a day anyway. This way strikes me as putting more value on a a woman's looks and the power of purchasing her.

Dating isn't really complicated once you establish boundrys for yourself. Do cheap and free dates till you make sure they are interested in you. Contact as many women as you can and go on as many dates as you can, you never know who you will click with and some may surprise you.

I don't want to come across as overly judgy about the whole thing. I know this wouldn't be right for me but I do know some guys struggle with dating and if I had a son my advice for him to be success with women would be make money, be confident, have a great sense of humor. The problem is for me that I do not see this as dating. I see this as rent a woman and that just wouldn't work for me


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## caliguy2349

I wonder how many attractive younger women are not totally turned off if the older guy who makes more wants to go 50 50.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974

caliguy2349 said:


> I wonder how many attractive younger women are not totally turned off if the older guy who makes more wants to go 50 50.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure, but some do. I have had women tell me up front they don't pay for first dates and that the expectation as minimum dinner... 

No thanks I prefer my first meets to be causal and quick to see if we have a connection. 30 min for a beer or coffee is enough time.

I think I get what your saying though. You place value on beauty and don't care that you are paying to get it. I guess so long as it works for you then ok. This isn't new, it's basically an escort service it's just the individual woman is making the terms. At a couple hundred a date she could easily make a living off of dating you and other guys. 

Just a turn off for me. If I was dating a woman and found out she was doing this in her past I doubt I would continue to see her but I can understand how some men and some women think this is a good arrangement.


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> I wonder how many attractive younger women are not totally turned off if the older guy who makes more wants to go 50 50.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You keep asking the same question over and over. 

Date someone who you like and enjoys your company. Have fun together. Don't spend $1000 a month on her and dump her if she expects it. Find a better class of woman. Find free activities to do together. If she's into you, she will be quite happy with this. 

Don't start off talking about how much money you have or how you're going to spoil her. I've dated guys who do this and then complain all they find are gold-diggers. They didn't make it past a first date with me. You sound just like them.


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## Lila

caliguy2349 said:


> High grant and Charlie sheen introverted and ugly? I don't see any correlation. Plenty of married dudes are introverted and ugly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, so you're comparing the average joe to easily recognizable Hollywood stars? Try again. 

Both men had something to hide. Hugh Grant actually HAD a gorgeous wife at the time, super model Elizabeth Hurley but was soliciting street hookers like Divine Brown (not anywhere near model beauty) for bjs in his car. Charlie Sheen is an admitted sex addict. He was farking everything Heidi Fleiss could throw at him...and still wasn't satisfied. 

A site like what's your price (or whatever it's called) would not apply to either of these men.


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## coffee4me

caliguy2349 said:


> I wonder how many attractive younger women are not totally turned off if the older guy who makes more wants to go 50 50.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



An attractive woman is not accustomed to being asked to pay 50/50. Does not mean she's a gold digger or anything else its just what she used to and therefore may view being asked to pay as an odd or negative thing.


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## caliguy2349

It's an odd transition for me. 

Meet girl. Wine and dine. Be the "gentleman". Progress. Bed her. Then start paying half lol. Seems like a misrepresentation.


(4th date after weekend of sex). "Hey babe. Got this one? I got the last three. Time to pull your weight"
_Posted via Mobile 4953 Oak Cliff Ct Powder Springs Ga 30127Device_


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## caliguy2349

coffee4me said:


> An attractive woman is not accustomed to being asked to pay 50/50. Does not mean she's a gold digger or anything else its just what she used to and therefore may view being asked to pay as an odd or negative thing.


I would even say not good looking ones want you to pay because they want to be thought of as beautiful, and guys pay for beautiful ones
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> It's an odd transition for me.
> 
> Meet girl. Wine and dine. Be the "gentleman". Progress. Bed her. Then start paying half lol. Seems like a misrepresentation.
> 
> 
> (4th date after weekend of sex). "Hey babe. Got this one? I got the last three. Time to pull your weight"
> _Posted via Mobile 4953 Oak Cliff Ct Powder Springs Ga 30127Device_


I have never had this conversation in my life. It just naturally progresses. I would not expect the man to keep paying 100%. That's why many of us have suggested you look for different women. But you seem to ignore that advice and think these women don't exist.


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## sapientia

Sex is a need. Those willing to pay for a need will always find someone willing to transact.

We should legalize prostitution. Make it a licenced profession. Add an education component and give practioners access to proper healthcare, etc.

A lot of angst and bad decisions about relationships stems from loneliness and a need for sex.

A interesting question would be: how many of you would pay for sex if it were more like going to see your medico or shrink? Not "dirty" but healthy?

I might have considered losing my virginity from a professional rather than 2 teenagers fumbling blind in the dark. LOL.


----------



## caliguy2349

SARAHMCD said:


> I have never had this conversation in my life. It just naturally progresses. I would not expect the man to keep paying 100%. That's why many of us have suggested you look for different women. But you seem to ignore that advice and think these women don't exist.


Oh I bet you didn't. Not easy to bring up. More or less remains the status quo in most cases, as the guy doesn't want to then "lose having sex". 

Usually at best it turns into 90/10
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffee4me

caliguy2349 said:


> I would even say not good looking ones want you to pay because they want to be thought of as beautiful, and guys pay for beautiful ones
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well thanks for putting that thought in my head.....

Your other comment made me try and imagine how I would feel about being asked to pay for half the date. Now I'll be thinking "this guy thinks I'm ugly".


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## SARAHMCD

caliguy2349 said:


> Oh I bet you didn't. Not easy to bring up. More or less remains the status quo in most cases, as the guy doesn't want to then "lose having sex".
> 
> Usually at best it turns into 90/10
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:scratchhead:
It is NOT status quo. That is your experience, once again, because you're choosing the wrong women and likely presenting yourself in a certain way. You're not listening to anyone's advice here. 

I'm tapping out.


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## coffee4me

caliguy2349 said:


> It's an odd transition for me.
> 
> Meet girl. Wine and dine. Be the "gentleman". Progress. Bed her. Then start paying half lol. Seems like a misrepresentation.
> 
> 
> (4th date after weekend of sex). "Hey babe. Got this one? I got the last three. Time to pull your weight"
> _Posted via Mobile 4953 Oak Cliff Ct Powder Springs Ga 30127Device_



Perhaps you will meet a girl you don't have to wine and dine. I'm not a foodie and I don't drink alcohol having dinner to me is about the company. I've not been on many dates but the first one was always coffee and the second one a walk at the beach, my suggestions. 

I agree with what the others have said it's the type of women you date.


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## sapientia

caliguy2349 said:


> Oh I bet you didn't. Not easy to bring up. More or less remains the status quo in most cases, as the guy doesn't want to then "lose having sex".
> 
> Usually at best it turns into 90/10
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop investing in women who are looking to be 'entertained' by you. If you are at all intelligent, they should be easy to spot.

If you are reasonably well to do, the cost of a coffee or lunch shouldn't be super taxing, even it she doesn't offer to contribute - which should be a red flag for no second date if you are seeking a generous personality.

Before you go off on me for being a woman -- I'm well off and pay for coffee all the time for those who I know can use the money for other things -- usually students.

When I was dating, I would show up early and get my own coffee - then offer to buy his when he arrived. Most didn't take me up on it, a couple did. Some offered to buy my next if we were enjoying the conversation. 

Looking back, I can't remember which guys did or didn't let me buy them a coffee. They were all decent fellows. None of that factored into why there wasn't a second date.


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## SadSamIAm

My son is in University (19 years old). Dating a girl that is 18. 

After a few dates going dutch (50/50) she told him that she expects him to pay everything most of the time. That all of her friends boyfriends pay for everything. She told him that her mother told her she shouldn't settle for anything less.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I gave up OLD because there are too many guys who think that all the women on there just want the same thing.
I got tired of just being another pretty face and pretty figure subjected to boring dates by men who thought that they could buy me.
One guy got frustrated with me because I said I didn't want to go out to yet another restaurant and have to deal with another hostess and waitress and feeling pressured to get up because of occupying a table or the place was going to close at 9.

New boyfriend asked me what my love language is: quality time. 
Can I cook? Sure thing. Love to cook, I'm a better cook than most chefs at the nicest restaurants.
It's way cheaper too, and more fun.
Sure I like to go out once in a while, but it doesn't have to be fancy/expensive. 
I love picnics. 

Funny thing is, guys get so paranoid they think it's some kind of weird trick to get at their money.
Like I'm faking it to lure them in and trap them.
hahahahahahaha. 

Honestly though, there are some guys who cannot operate outside the model of food for sex. 
That's what their thinking is. If they had to do any real connection to get to the good sex, they have no clue what to do and have psychotic breakdowns from the confusion. If they can't flash money, it's like their special powers have been taken away :-|


----------



## Elizabeth001

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I gave up OLD because there are too many guys who think that all the women on there just want the same thing.
> 
> I got tired of just being another pretty face and pretty figure subjected to boring dates by men who thought that they could buy me.
> 
> One guy got frustrated with me because I said I didn't want to go out to yet another restaurant and have to deal with another hostess and waitress and feeling pressured to get up because of occupying a table or the place was going to close at 9.
> 
> 
> 
> New boyfriend asked me what my love language is: quality time.
> 
> Can I cook? Sure thing. Love to cook, I'm a better cook than most chefs at the nicest restaurants.
> 
> It's way cheaper too, and more fun.
> 
> Sure I like to go out once in a while, but it doesn't have to be fancy/expensive.
> 
> I love picnics.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is, guys get so paranoid they think it's some kind of weird trick to get at their money.
> 
> Like I'm faking it to lure them in and trap them.
> 
> hahahahahahaha.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly though, there are some guys who cannot operate outside the model of food for sex.
> 
> That's what their thinking is. If they had to do any real connection to get to the good sex, they have no clue what to do and have psychotic breakdowns from the confusion. If they can't flash money, it's like their special powers have been taken away :-|



*love*


----------



## Thundarr

SadSamIAm said:


> My son is in University (19 years old). Dating a girl that is 18.
> 
> After a few dates going dutch (50/50) she told him that she expects him to pay everything most of the time. That all of her friends boyfriends pay for everything. She told him that her mother told her she shouldn't settle for anything less.


That's convenient for her isn't it. Your son needs to run ( and I mean run fast ) away from this girl. Some women go to college to become independent. She's not one of them.


----------



## soccermom2three

SadSamIAm said:


> My son is in University (19 years old). Dating a girl that is 18.
> 
> After a few dates going dutch (50/50) she told him that she expects him to pay everything most of the time. That all of her friends boyfriends pay for everything. She told him that her mother told her she shouldn't settle for anything less.


My 20 year old daughter and her boyfriend, also 20, pay 50/50 when they go out. She insists on it even though he makes more than double of what she makes and he wants to pay for the entire date. I'm proud of my girl.


----------



## sapientia

SadSamIAm said:


> My son is in University (19 years old). Dating a girl that is 18.
> 
> After a few dates going dutch (50/50) she told him that she expects him to pay everything most of the time. That all of her friends boyfriends pay for everything. She told him that her mother told her she shouldn't settle for anything less.


Tell him to ask her why. Five times. Drill down into the reason why this is a fair arrangement. It will be a good learning experience for him. Possibly for her also. Maybe, if your son is a good young man, she will learn a valuable lesson about self-respect and get herself a job if she wants to go out with boys of his quality.

My teenage son was taking a girl out for lunch last year. After a few times, he figured out he wasn't getting much for the effort and stopped. He works for his allowance so he can contribute to other things he enjoys, so this was a good learning experience for him.


----------



## caliguy2349

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> I gave up OLD because there are too many guys who think that all the women on there just want the same thing.
> I got tired of just being another pretty face and pretty figure subjected to boring dates by men who thought that they could buy me.
> One guy got frustrated with me because I said I didn't want to go out to yet another restaurant and have to deal with another hostess and waitress and feeling pressured to get up because of occupying a table or the place was going to close at 9.
> 
> New boyfriend asked me what my love language is: quality time.
> Can I cook? Sure thing. Love to cook, I'm a better cook than most chefs at the nicest restaurants.
> It's way cheaper too, and more fun.
> Sure I like to go out once in a while, but it doesn't have to be fancy/expensive.
> I love picnics.
> 
> Funny thing is, guys get so paranoid they think it's some kind of weird trick to get at their money.
> Like I'm faking it to lure them in and trap them.
> hahahahahahaha.
> 
> Honestly though, there are some guys who cannot operate outside the model of food for sex.
> That's what their thinking is. If they had to do any real connection to get to the good sex, they have no clue what to do and have psychotic breakdowns from the confusion. If they can't flash money, it's like their special powers have been taken away :-|


I have dated Asian, South American, career girls, older women, younger, party girls. girls with no job, girls with excellent jobs etc.

I would say 1 in my life was responsible with money, self sufficient, and truly did not mind AT ALL to be 50/50.. Her husband died at a young age and was an executive, so she was set financially, but could not have children, so it didn't work out..She didn't pull the fake "half heartedly reach for the wallet", she actually just paid without a care..

The other girl who did not mind paying, but was not good with money, was my ex wife..And that became far more expensive than any possible "pay arrangement" imaginable.. I am assuming she pulled something similar with her current husband, as the amount of money he spent to marry her and be with her is rather high. 


I think a lesson for women is , that if you want to get married, at least pretending to be egalitarian goes a long way. 

So, to address your point, men operate with resources for sex, because that is what we have become used to. Even women that made twice as much as me would not "feel like a woman" if it was 50/50... Obviously they weren't gold diggers, but they would still make the connection between resources for sex.."Do you have half", or "You got this bill", would be a huge turn off.


----------



## caliguy2349

sapientia said:


> Tell him to ask her why. Five times. Drill down into the reason why this is a fair arrangement. It will be a good learning experience for him. Possibly for her also. Maybe, if your son is a good young man, she will learn a valuable lesson about self-respect and get herself a job if she wants to go out with boys of his quality.
> 
> My teenage son was taking a girl out for lunch last year. After a few times, he figured out he wasn't getting much for the effort and stopped. He works for his allowance so he can contribute to other things he enjoys, so this was a good learning experience for him.


Good learning experience as to how to get a woman to close her legs faster than he has ever seen before, lol...I found out long ago using logic to have these sort of/any type of debates is a huge turn off. Women seem to operate more on emotions and feelings..


----------



## caliguy2349

intheory said:


> caliguy,
> 
> 
> What do you need anyone's input for? You want very young, beautiful hot women, who know it. Who enjoy the power of extracting as much wealth as possible from a man who is willing, that's right willing, to go along with it?
> 
> .


You describe marriage, not a "pay as you go"arrangement..


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

caliguy2349 said:


> I would say 1 in my life was responsible with money, self sufficient, and truly did not mind AT ALL to be 50/50.
> 
> ... as the amount of money he spent to marry her and be with her is rather high.
> 
> 
> I think a lesson for women is , that if you want to get married, at least pretending to be egalitarian goes a long way.
> 
> So, to address your point, men operate with resources for sex,


Here's what I'm hearing.
You need to change your dating pool, you're not meeting quality women. You met one person who was free with her money but then quickly qualified that by saying it was her dead ex's money (not hers, even though at that point it was hers to manage and do with as she pleased.) 

Your focus is on women wanting marriage, and men wanting sex.
And you state that there should be pretense in dating...if it is to lead to marriage. 

Your view of the world sounds like it's cemented. I'm sorry about that. Perhaps you are too old to change. Perhaps not. I wish that something will happen to you in life where you can have a different viewpoint that's as real and valid to you as the one you hold now.

If it does, consider it a miracle.


----------



## caliguy2349

Well, I am more old fashioned, and used to be naieve...But after going through marriage and divorce, I can see why so many women want to be married.. 

I wish feminists groups would fight for true equality... Want to divorce? ok.. Split the kids and both pay your own way...

But we have a system here where the woman is still treated like a child.. She can cheat, file for divorce, and the police state still forces you to pay spousal support, child support, her car, phone, insurance AND pay for your own time with the kid...

The court doesnt look at it like "Well, you gave your wife a great life, worked hard, for years she had lunch with friends, went to the gym etc".. They twist it into "You wouldnt let your wife work and she was your slave! Now you owe her money!"

I mean who gets paid for a job they quit? Go tell your boss you quit and see if he has to pay you for years.. Everyone would be quitting.. I guess really only women in today's society..


----------



## Ynot

I walked away from this thread after telling the OP about a have a dozen times, that if he wants to go pay for sex he should just do it. But for some reason I just couldn't resist following the pages and pages of his attempted justifications for his idea. Then I read this shining example of his thinking. It clearly illustrates his idea.



caliguy2349 said:


> I have dated Asian, South American, career girls, older women, younger, party girls. girls with no job, girls with excellent jobs etc.
> 
> I would say 1 in my life was responsible with money, self sufficient, and truly did not mind AT ALL to be 50/50.. Her husband died at a young age and was an executive, so she was set financially, but could not have children, so it didn't work out..She didn't pull the fake "half heartedly reach for the wallet", she actually just paid without a care..
> 
> The other girl who did not mind paying, but was not good with money, was my ex wife..And that became far more expensive than any possible "pay arrangement" imaginable.. I am assuming she pulled something similar with her current husband, as the amount of money he spent to marry her and be with her is rather high.
> 
> 
> I think a lesson for women is , that if you want to get married, at least pretending to be egalitarian goes a long way.
> 
> So, to address your point, men operate with resources for sex, because that is what we have become used to. Even women that made twice as much as me would not "feel like a woman" if it was 50/50... Obviously they weren't gold diggers, but they would still make the connection between resources for sex.."Do you have half", or "You got this bill", would be a huge turn off.


Caliguy, after reading this ask yourself, what is the one common element throughout your story? If you are being honest, you will not say the gold digging women. If you are being honest you will respond that YOU are the common element. 
Read any self help book, PUA book, psychology book, relationship book, you name it, almost every single one of them discusses the law of attraction. That psychological laws simply states this :
Like attracts like
It is a corollary to the golden rule "do unto others has you would have them do unto you". Your fixation of assigning monetary value to relationships is actually attracting women who feel the same as you. If you are having issues attracting other types of women (or people in general) into your life, it is because YOU are not attracting them.


----------



## BetrayedDad

caliguy2349 said:


> It's basically the same as online dating, except you pay for the date..


Sooooo... it's exactly like online dating lol.

I've never "paid" for a woman but $150 to take an above average girl out for a date with pretty good odds of getting laid sounds like a steal.


----------



## BetrayedDad

caliguy2349 said:


> But as is often the case, if you are a man, and bring up "paying half", you are shamed as being cheap, not generous, not a real man, not a provider etc.


Truth. 

A lot of women are "feminists" until the bill arrives. Then, its time for the guy to "man up". I've seen guys be called "cheapskates" just because they wanted to pay for half. Ridiculous.


----------



## BetrayedDad

intheory said:


> Traditionally, and today, women are still greatly evaluated and given worth, relative to their looks. Who are we trying to kid?


So are men. This is a gender neutral issue. I used to be significantly overweight. Since I've lost the weight people are far more "friendlier" to me. Men and women. Studies have been done, the more attractive you are, the more people are drawn to you and make positive assumptions about you. Even with in the same gender.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Average Joe said:


> Yeah man, don't give up on traditional online dating just yet. I mean, I'm here cause we're going through some serious sh!t atm, but I'm confident we'll pull through. My computor wife is an exceptional human, in the end. Coming out of a divorce prior to her, I dove in carefully.
> 
> Rather than pay for a date, maybe pay someone to write a killer profile for you. I went through many rounds of rewrites on mine before i felt it was golden, then published it. The site even liked my pics so much that they asked if they could use them for promos, and in fact did : o And I got very smart, high-quality hits. Like a surgeon. But yeah, takes time ... lots of trash bags out there (girls and guys), as you know.
> 
> W kinda sucks at marketing (I do all of her marketing now) so her bff wrote hers, and I jumped on it immediately.
> 
> One "fishing" technique I liked to use was, when I found a profile I liked, I would re-jigger mine just slightly to align exactly with hers (of course, only if we were generally compatible to begin with). Then wink. Or just wait it out a bit and wait for a very surprised message. You gotta have an exceptionally intriguing, arresting main profile image though, and a fun name doesn't hurt, either. Fun and smart ... the two biggies.
> 
> In the end I actually made some interesting friends before W eventually came along.
> 
> We even had our profiles mounted and framed at our wedding. Even just 2 nights ago, we were reminiscing fondly about that experience. (Yeah yeah we were with our therapist. But still, good times )


PM me your profile haha. I need a good template.


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

caliguy2349 said:


> Well, I am more old fashioned
> 
> Want to divorce? ok.. Split the kids and both pay your own way...
> 
> But we have a system here
> 
> The court doesnt look at it like "Well, you gave your wife a great life, worked hard, for years she had lunch with friends, went to the gym etc".. They twist it into "You wouldnt let your wife work and she was your slave! Now you owe her money!"
> 
> I mean who gets paid for a job they quit? ...I guess really only women in today's society..


Old fashioned is a euphemism, old fashioned can be values. But you can act on your values in different ways.

If you think the justice system is twisted and misguided, then you need to address the issue with a good attorney who can protect you from that system. Namely, pre-nups which will hold firm under whatever twisting they're subjected to.

You could also live in a state where there is more equity in terms of child support and custody. 

Or, you could move to or visit Nevada. 

I take about 1/5 of what the court would allow me for child support.
I also made sure that my kids' dad did not bear any burden for his child's spinal surgery or extra therapies or care he needed (even though the dad could afford it, if he was making all the decisions for his kid he would not have chose to have the services, which I felt were necessary...what the courts would call 'parenting differences'...talk about twisted...) I take the kids way more than half time, more like 7/8 of the time. I make all the arrangements for their health care, schooling, clothes, passports, sports, extracurriculars, etc.

So, you can go on and on about your perception of the world but I am saying that is the part you are CHOOSING to see and moreover CHOOSING to experience, out of all the possibilities this great big world full of diverse people with a myriad of values and behavior patterns has to offer. 

Sure I know that there are nasty men out there who just want to get laid. But I've also seen living proof that there are other men out there who think differently. And I've experienced first hand the nasty men too. But I have a CHOICE. Most people have a choice. They can choose to justify my bad choices by saying that there is no good choice that can be made, the deck is stacked, or they can change what they believe and make better choices about how my life proceeds. Not just a passive choice, but an active choice, one where they participate in the outcome and understand how they had a play in it. Cause nobody in life really has anyone breathing down the back of their neck, holding a gun to their head and saying, hey buddy/b*tch, make this choice or die.


----------



## caliguy2349

BetrayedDad said:


> Sooooo... it's exactly like online dating lol.
> 
> I've never "paid" for a woman but $150 to take an above average girl out for a date with pretty good odds of getting laid sounds like a steal.


Exactly. And I have found out that soooo many young women are doing exactly this. They work at target. Dunkin donuts. Waitress. Go to college etc. 

Once their friends do it, they do it. They meet a guy they are attracted to and just put a price on it. For these girls an extra 1000 a month is a lot, and in their mind they are not hookers at all. 

They are being taken care of "by a gentleman" or "real man"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

caliguy2349 said:


> You are a single guy and want a special woman in your life.. You are a 7.. Options..
> 
> A. Hang out at target and ask out shoppers.


Hilarious! I've thought about doing this before but never had the balls.

With all due respect... Maybe your not a 7. I think 90% of people think they are a 6-8. 7's can pull in tail at a decent rate. A truly average person walking around a Target is usually a 5.

Ask ten friends (not your mom) in your age range, mostly women, to rate you on a scale of 1-10. 10 = Channing Tatum, 1 = Zack Galifianakis. Dress normally and tell them REPEATEDLY you NEED brutal honesty and ask for advice on what you can do to boost that number up. 

After that figure, it will be on the high side cause people have a tendency to not want to be d!cks (to your face anyway). So if the average is 6, your probably a 5-6. Or if your feeling brave post a pic of yourself even if it's just a body shot and people here can give you HONEST feedback.

First thing I did when I started OLD was ask my friends to rate me so I knew what was realistic. You're biggest bias is yourself.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

caliguy2349 said:


> You describe marriage, not a "pay as you go"arrangement..


Bitter isn't pretty.


----------



## SadSamIAm

sapientia said:


> Tell him to ask her why. Five times. Drill down into the reason why this is a fair arrangement. It will be a good learning experience for him. Possibly for her also. Maybe, if your son is a good young man, she will learn a valuable lesson about self-respect and get herself a job if she wants to go out with boys of his quality.
> 
> My teenage son was taking a girl out for lunch last year. After a few times, he figured out he wasn't getting much for the effort and stopped. He works for his allowance so he can contribute to other things he enjoys, so this was a good learning experience for him.


I have talked to him about it. But he is in love! They both have part time jobs.

When my wife and I were in college we went dutch because we both had so little. Later when we started working, I was making more and so I paid more often. When we had children, it didn't make sense for her to work as her job didn't pay much more than what daycare would have cost. Also she wanted to be home with the kids. We agreed together for her to stay home with the kids. 

The kids are grown and my wife doesn't work. I make a very good living so she doesn't need to. I like that she is home. Makes our life less stressful.

I think my son sees our family as a good role model. In many ways it is. 

My message to him isn't so much about who pays for what. It is about her sense of entitlement. My wife would never have expected me to pay and she would certainly be working if we needed the money.


----------



## caliguy2349

I agree. I think these days I give any woman a 7 if she is height weight proportionate. So I am not asking for drop dead gorgeous. The avg American female is a size 14.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

caliguy2349 said:


> I agree. I think these days I give any woman a 7 if she is height weight proportionate. So I am not asking for drop dead gorgeous. The avg American female is a size 14.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yah. I think this is because guys tend to feed them so much before sex. We need to move out of this model of mating in order to have a healthier America. I think it might help the men's guts as well. In case you didn't notice, gender equality might not have resulted in equal pay, or equal payment at the dinner table, but the guys seem to be using more and more of their income for food...not just to have a softer landing when they're pumping away, but also so much so that many men cannot even see their diminishing equipment. :surprise:

I'm surprised that America is still having or able to have sex, we're so obese. 

At least the graphics here make all the men relatively cute. Much nicer than what one typically sees in OLD, or even just out and about. Although, most of the people in my town are uncharacteristically beautiful, both men and women. But maybe it's the aura of respect around here more than anything else.

Body Measurements Of Average American Man - Business Insider


----------



## caliguy2349

SadSamIAm said:


> I have talked to him about it. But he is in love! They both have part time jobs.
> 
> When my wife and I were in college we went dutch because we both had so little. Later when we started working, I was making more and so I paid more often. When we had children, it didn't make sense for her to work as her job didn't pay much more than what daycare would have cost. Also she wanted to be home with the kids. We agreed together for her to stay home with the kids.
> 
> The kids are grown and my wife doesn't work. I make a very good living so she doesn't need to. I like that she is home. Makes our life less stressful.
> 
> I think my son sees our family as a good role model. In many ways it is.
> 
> My message to him isn't so much about who pays for what. It is about her sense of entitlement. My wife would never have expected me to pay and she would certainly be working if we needed the money.


This was my template too. My mom was extremely beautiful, but from another generation. Cooked from scratch, collected coupons, sewed my pants, saved every dime. Never heard one issue about money. 

So, I was thinking I would marry and this would be somewhat similar. Totally wasn't. I do not think young women these days have the same values. Most are proud that they can't cook. Not sure if it is due to materialism, reality tv, or facebook. But most really only market themselves as a sexual being. Anything else useful is "old fashioned"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad

caliguy2349 said:


> I do not think young women these days have the same values. Most are proud that they can't cook.


More truth...

Preach on.


----------



## caliguy2349

I can't even blame women. It just seems to be how things are changing. 

For example my ex loved facebook. Had 300 girlfriends. 

So of course, every girl has to brag about how awesome their life is. That one trip she takes a year will be all over facebook. But when you have 300 friends, every single day is a gf that is on vacation, got a new purse, new car, new piece of jewelry etc. 

Then your wife watches tv and it is the kardashians, the "real housewives" series in which every woman had a better life. Etc women with not one skill on earth other than spending money 

So when you come home it's like "oh hey what's for dinner" or "oh the bathroom is a mess" she was like "I'm not a maid!! You want a wife or a maid". And of course you aren't getting sex either because every husband on Facebook and the housewives show is ten times better.

I honestly think my ex wanted to vacation mainly so she could put photos on facebook. They were posted within minutes f getting off the plane 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SadSamIAm

caliguy2349 said:


> This was my template too. My mom was extremely beautiful, but from another generation. Cooked from scratch, collected coupons, sewed my pants, saved every dime. Never heard one issue about money.
> 
> So, I was thinking I would marry and this would be somewhat similar. Totally wasn't. I do not think young women these days have the same values. Most are proud that they can't cook. Not sure if it is due to materialism, reality tv, or facebook. But most really only market themselves as a sexual being. Anything else useful is "old fashioned"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I disagree. I believe there all kinds of women out there. They aren't all as you describe. To be honest, I wouldn't want to have to date now. I am sure there are many like you describe. BUT NOT ALL.

I can see either of my daughters being like their mother. If their spouse makes enough money, I can see them staying home to raise the kids. 

I can also see them excelling at their careers and choosing to keep working. Maybe even having their partners stay home if it makes sense for their situation and their partner wants to do so.

My daughters pay their way with their partners. One actually pays more than her boyfriend as he recently lost his job.

And by the way, I believe that if both spouses make the decision that one is going to stay home, then I agree that there needs to be spousal and child support should the marriage break up. I might not agree on the amounts being awarded but I agree it wouldn't be fair for me to leave my wife and not have to give her money since we both agreed to her giving up her career.


----------



## SadSamIAm

caliguy2349 said:


> I can't even blame women. It just seems to be how things are changing.
> 
> For example my ex loved facebook. Had 300 girlfriends.
> 
> So of course, every girl has to brag about how awesome their life is. That one trip she takes a year will be all over facebook. But when you have 300 friends, every single day is a gf that is on vacation, got a new purse, new car, new piece of jewelry etc.
> 
> Then your wife watches tv and it is the kardashians, the "real housewives" series in which every woman had a better life. Etc
> 
> So when you come home it's like "oh hey what's for dinner" or "oh the bathroom is a mess" she was like "I'm not a maid!! You want a wife or a maid". And of course you aren't getting sex either because every husband on Facebook and the housewives show is ten times better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Some truth in all of this. 

But don't give up on the world. There are still many good people out there. 

My advice .... 

1) Stay away from hookers. 
2) Go on dates and give them a chance. First meeting should be a cheap date that you pay for (lunch, coffee, etc.). If they offer to go dutch then great, if not, don't write them off. Go slow. Get to know them. After a date or two, they should be offering to pay sometimes. You might find someone you are compatible with.

I say you should pay for the first date because ...
- I would want someone that would allow me to take care of them, but not expect it.
- They might be testing you to find out if you are cheap. 

3) Get rid of the attitude. You have no chance of meeting someone you are compatible with if you come off the way you do on here.


----------



## coffee4me

BetrayedDad said:


> Sooooo... it's exactly like online dating lol.
> 
> I've never "paid" for a woman but $150 to take an above average girl out for a date with pretty good odds of getting laid sounds like a steal.



From the articles I read about this $80-$200 is the date price for about a 2 hour date. Basically you bid on the girl the more attractive she is the more bidders and the higher the bid. She might accept a smaller bid if you are attractive to her but a guy can't bid less than $80 because that is an insult. You are paying the girl for her time and she does generally expect a real date wining and dining at your expense of course. 

The interviews by girls that did this said it is just a date, no sex at that price. They use this to fund their lifestyle and they are accepting dates with men they normally would not go out with. 

If a girl is offering sex the price is up around $400-$500 per date plus I think you have to feed her dinner. 

Does that sound like a good deal? Remember there's no guarantee this girl will have sex with you so how much would you spend for her time?


----------



## EnjoliWoman

caliguy2349 said:


> This was my template too. My mom was extremely beautiful, but from another generation. Cooked from scratch, collected coupons, sewed my pants, saved every dime. Never heard one issue about money.
> 
> So, I was thinking I would marry and this would be somewhat similar. Totally wasn't. I do not think young women these days have the same values. Most are proud that they can't cook. Not sure if it is due to materialism, reality tv, or facebook. But most really only market themselves as a sexual being. Anything else useful is "old fashioned"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, it has been my experience to an extent that men are also perpetuating the 'myth' that women are only marketable as sexual. Look at TV, movies and magazines. Women are only reacting to the laws of supply and demand.

I can do all of the above and am relatively attractive but because I'm not overtly sexual and I'm plump (14), even though I'm fit, I don't attract men. I'm proud I CAN cook, sew, fix things and have many useful skills but it seems they aren't particularly appreciated by men except the poorest blue collar men. And while I don't care about a guy's wallet all THAT much, it's more or less a reflection on our values not being compatible (travel, reading, debating, fine arts).


----------



## Thundarr

caliguy2349 said:


> I have dated Asian, South American, career girls, older women, younger, party girls. girls with no job, girls with excellent jobs etc.
> 
> I would say 1 in my life was responsible with money, self sufficient, and truly did not mind AT ALL to be 50/50.. Her husband died at a young age and was an executive, so she was set financially, but could not have children, so it didn't work out..She didn't pull the fake "half heartedly reach for the wallet", she actually just paid without a care..
> 
> The other girl who did not mind paying, but was not good with money, was my ex wife..And that became far more expensive than any possible "pay arrangement" imaginable.. I am assuming she pulled something similar with her current husband, as the amount of money he spent to marry her and be with her is rather high.
> 
> I think a lesson for women is , that if you want to get married, at least pretending to be egalitarian goes a long way.
> 
> So, to address your point, men operate with resources for sex, because that is what we have become used to. Even women that made twice as much as me would not "feel like a woman" if it was 50/50... Obviously they weren't gold diggers, but they would still make the connection between resources for sex.."Do you have half", or "You got this bill", would be a huge turn off.



On face value, it's clear that you don't respect women in general but still want to have sex with pretty ones. If so then your solution is good for you and your dates. It doesn't sound appealing to me and many others though. Beyond face value though, I think you're just trying to ruffle feathers and insult women.


----------



## BetrayedDad

caliguy2349 said:


> I would say 1 in my life was responsible with money, self sufficient, and truly did not mind AT ALL to be 50/50.. Her husband died at a young age and was an executive, so she was set financially, *but could not have children, so it didn't work out..* She didn't pull the fake "half heartedly reach for the wallet", she actually just paid without a care...


Sounds like the one that got away. Sometimes you only get one chance in life. If that was the only issue I would of just adopted. Plenty of kids need homes. She seems perfect in every other way.

Too bad.


----------



## Ynot

caliguy2349 said:


> I would say 1 in my life was responsible with money, self sufficient, and truly did not mind AT ALL to be 50/50.. Her husband died at a young age and was an executive, so she was set financially, but could not have children, so it didn't work out..She didn't pull the fake "half heartedly reach for the wallet", she actually just paid without a care..


If you give off the same vibe in person as you do here, she probably couldn't pay fast enough to get away from you.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

While I go on a date prepared to pay, I'm a bit turned off when they let the bill sit there to see what I'll do. When they immediately grab it, I say "thank you, can I get the tip?" Sometimes they say yes, other time no. If yes, I ask how much they suggest and I pay it. If they leave it there or delay a long time and say out loud "Well, the total is $44 so.....?" and trail off and wait for me to speak up, I'll get out my wallet and I won't go on a second date. Don't take someone on a date to a place you can't afford. If a guy suggests a pricey restaurant I'll SAY "That's a bit out of my price range; what about _____" and he can say "My treat!" or "Ok, how about ___ then?"

That is all dependent on his economic situation, though. By the end of dinner we should know each others career and family situation. If a guy tells me his kids go to a private school and he has a condo on the expensive side of town whereas my daughter goes to a public school and I'm just on the decent side of the cheaper section, I'd be offended that he wants to split it knowing that. If I know he's living in the same situation as I am, I'll be much more insistent on paying the tip and the next date I will suggest he can get the meal, I'll get the movie or whatever. That's the difference between cheap and practical. 

If he's on the less well-to-do side, I'll keep that in mind when suggesting future activities. Usually the first date I suggest meeting in a park for a long walk and wrap up with coffee and desert somewhere, or just meet for a quick drink, etc. Then we BOTH know if we're willing to invest time and money in getting to know one another better.


----------



## Lila

When I was single and dating my assumption was that if the guy asked me out, then he was paying. When I asked a guy out, I always offered to pay but was rarely taken up on the offer....and I'm just an average (yes 5 ish) looking woman, always have been. 

I only recall one date where the guy invited me out and then asked to split the bill. It was the first and last date I ever had with him. He practically begged me for a second date (sent me bouquets of flowers to my apartment) but I was hugely turned off by the whole experience. Interestingly enough he was a millionaire who'd made his money in cyber security during the early days of the internet. It still made no difference to me.

I agree with what the others here are trying to say....if you're looking for a genuine relationship, then stop looking at Golddiggers for dates. But if you're looking for nothing deeper than a sexual encounter, and are not able to find it the traditional way (at bars, clubs, etc..) then go ahead and pay for the girlfriend experience.


----------



## caliguy2349

coffee4me said:


> From the articles I read about this $80-$200 is the date price for about a 2 hour date. Basically you bid on the girl the more attractive she is the more bidders and the higher the bid. She might accept a smaller bid if you are attractive to her but a guy can't bid less than $80 because that is an insult. You are paying the girl for her time and she does generally expect a real date wining and dining at your expense of course.
> 
> The interviews by girls that did this said it is just a date, no sex at that price. They use this to fund their lifestyle and they are accepting dates with men they normally would not go out with.
> 
> If a girl is offering sex the price is up around $400-$500 per date plus I think you have to feed her dinner.
> 
> Does that sound like a good deal? Remember there's no guarantee this girl will have sex with you so how much would you spend for her time?


Well I had friends do this so what you state is not accurate. 

I actually did sign up and the girls send you offers. I got about ten ranging from 50 to 150. 

You are thinking of professional escorts that work for an agency. 

You pay the girl 100 to meet you. She might come over. She might want dinner. The park. Whatever. Just like a regular online date. 

Now obviously if she is charging by the hour, you would be like "ok see you later" and go back on the site and find a different one in 5 min that doesn't. 

There is no time limit lol. If you are a total creep obviously she can just leave. If she likes you it can go several ways :

A. I want to be your gf. No paying. 

B. I want nothing at all. Bye. 

C. I want x amount to be your on call gf per month. 

D. I want to date others and you for 100 each time. Etc. 

Once again. Just regular girls next door who made a profile for free in like 5 min
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

So here's a question.
I'm going out on a date with my boyfriend who ASKED ME in advance if I would LET HIM buy me dinner and then take me to a movie.
I said yes.
But if he only ends up spending $30 on me, is this bad?
Is he going to think that I have no self-respect? Will he wonder why my 'price' is so cheap and that maybe something is wrong with me?
I mean, do guys value ladies more if they have to pay more for them, especially the nice looking ones who aren't alcoholics or have an untreated mental illness? Will he think my desire to just have him spend time with me is complete BS?
I also brought homemade brownies I happened to have, and fresh fruit when we went cycling. 
I think I am really messing up here.


----------



## BetrayedDad

caliguy2349 said:


> Well I had friends do this so what you state is not accurate.
> 
> I actually did sign up and the girls send you offers. I got about ten ranging from 50 to 150.
> 
> You are thinking of professional escorts that work for an agency.
> 
> You pay the girl 100 to meet you. She might come over. She might want dinner. The park. Whatever. Just like a regular online date.
> 
> Now obviously if she is charging by the hour, you would be like "ok see you later" and go back on the site and find a different one in 5 min that doesn't.
> 
> There is no time limit lol. If you are a total creep obviously she can just leave. If she likes you it can go several ways :
> 
> A. I want to be your gf. No paying.
> 
> B. I want nothing at all. Bye.
> 
> C. I want x amount to be your on call gf per month.
> 
> D. I want to date others and you for 100 each time. Etc.
> 
> Once again. Just regular girls next door who made a profile for free in like 5 min
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @caliguy2349 

PM me this website.... 

If this is true, I'm registering tonight.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Lila said:


> I only recall one date where the guy invited me out and then asked to split the bill. It was the first and last date I ever had with him. He practically begged me for a second date (sent me bouquets of flowers to my apartment) but I was hugely turned off by the whole experience. Interestingly enough he was a millionaire who'd made his money in cyber security during the early days of the internet. It still made no difference to me.


It might have been a test. I know that if I had a bunch of money and was dating, I would be leary of people only wanting me for my money. I probably wouldn't be too generous until I go to know them better.

Or he could have just been cheap!

Either way it was bad taste for him to do this on the first date. Like I said, I would pay for the first date and take it slow.


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## caliguy2349

Homemaker_Numero_Uno said:


> So here's a question.
> I'm going out on a date with my boyfriend who ASKED ME in advance if I would LET HIM buy me dinner and then take me to a movie.
> I said yes.
> But if he only ends up spending $30 on me, is this bad?
> Is he going to think that I have no self-respect? Will he wonder why my 'price' is so cheap and that maybe something is wrong with me?
> I mean, do guys value ladies more if they have to pay more for them, especially the nice looking ones who aren't alcoholics or have an untreated mental illness? Will he think my desire to just have him spend time with me is complete BS?
> I also brought homemade brownies I happened to have, and fresh fruit when we went cycling.
> I think I am really messing up here.


Well, like I said over and over, it takes A LOT of work to get a date from let's say a "7" on a traditional dating site... Once you do get the date, half the time they flake..They are inundated with emails from guys daily..There is no investment on either part.. Basically going on a blind date. So you search for them, get their number, talk a few times, set a date, then "flake".. many hours wasted..

The pay for a date site is filled with "7's", and since they are making money they won't flake.. They email and text back immedietely.. etc..







































`


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## caliguy2349

Lila said:


> When I was single and dating my assumption was that if the guy asked me out, then he was paying. When I asked a guy out, I always offered to pay but was rarely taken up on the offer....and I'm just an average (yes 5 ish) looking woman, always have been.


Well in the real world, women are not asking out strangers, and if they do it is extremely rare.. There really is no reason for this to even occur..

A guy will ask you out because he wants to sleep with you.. So, he can't just say "lets have sex" to a stranger... So he asks you out and doesnt mention sex..

Now for a woman to ask a guy out, she could just say "hey, let's have sex".. He would say yes or no.. He already knows the answer by looking at you. Nothing that happens on the date would change his mind..-


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## Lila

SadSamIAm said:


> It might have been a test. I know that if I had a bunch of money and was dating, I would be leary of people only wanting me for my money. I probably wouldn't be too generous until I go to know them better.
> 
> Or he could have just been cheap!
> 
> Either way it was bad taste for him to do this on the first date. Like I said, I would pay for the first date and take it slow.


I think he was just cheap. He was good friends with a friend's boyfriend. When he told him that we'd gone on a date, my girlfriend called me immediately to let me know he was very tight with his money. I didn't need the confirmation but it was nice to know that I wasn't a complete b!tch.

Generosity, in all of it's forms, is a very attractive quality in people (men and women). Money is just one form. Time and talents are other forms. Unfortunately, we focus so much on the Money that we lose sight of the others. However you view generosity, it's a compatibility issue that should be addressed early on in the relationship.

I follow my Dad's buddhist view on money. It's like water. If you try to grab it, it flows away, but if you open your hands, it will move towards you.


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## Lila

caliguy2349 said:


> *Well in the real world, women are not asking out strangers,* and if they do it is extremely rare.. There really is no reason for this to even occur..
> 
> A guy will ask you out because he wants to sleep with you.. So, he can't just say "lets have sex" to a stranger... So he asks you out and doesnt mention sex..
> 
> Now for a woman to ask a guy out, she could just say "hey, let's have sex".. He would say yes or no.. He already knows the answer by looking at you. Nothing that happens on the date would change his mind..-


LOL, then I must live in a totally different realm from you. I asked my husband out on our first date. It was to Easter Mass and brunch afterwards. I paid because he was a freshman in college and flat broke. I was not. That was 21 years ago. Oh, and no, I didn't tell him "hey, let's head back over to my place after the mass and have sex", although the look on his would have been priceless.:surprise:


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## caliguy2349

Lila said:


> LOL, then I must live in a totally different realm from you. I asked my husband out on our first date. It was to Easter Mass and brunch afterwards. I paid because he was a freshman in college and flat broke. I was not. That was 21 years ago. Oh, and no, I didn't tell him "hey, let's head back over to my place after the mass and have sex", although the look on his would have been priceless.:surprise:


True, i am not a high schooler or college freshman..


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## Lila

caliguy2349 said:


> True, i am not a high schooler or college freshman..


You might not be but maybe you should take some lessons about dating from the younger generation? What have you got to lose? Based on your posts, it doesn't sound like your current process is working so well so try something else.

Again, if you wish to pay someone to spend time with you then do it. Will that date bloom into a relationship? I can't say for sure but the odds are probably not so good unless you establish an "arrangement" where you pay to play. As I've said before, nothing wrong with that as long as you understand that this is a business transaction. Don't raise your hopes that a genuine relationship will blossom with any of the women on those sites.


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## coffee4me

caliguy2349 said:


> Well, like I said over and over, it takes A LOT of work to get a date from let's say a "7" on a traditional dating site... Once you do get the date, half the time they flake..They are inundated with emails from guys daily..There is no investment on either part.. Basically going on a blind date. So you search for them, get their number, talk a few times, set a date, then "flake".. many hours wasted..
> 
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> The pay for a date site is filled with "7's", and since they are making money they won't flake.. They email and text back immedietely.. etc..
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You can't get a date with a girl who is a 7 so you want to pay one to go out with you. 

It's like the site I read about says "start dating with your wallet". 

Please report back how this works out for you, how much you spend and what you actually gained by paying women to meet you. I'm interested in reading about your experience.


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## sapientia

Lila said:


> When I was single and dating my assumption was that if the guy asked me out, then he was paying. When I asked a guy out, I always offered to pay but was rarely taken up on the offer....and I'm just an average (yes 5 ish) looking woman, always have been.
> 
> I only recall one date where the guy invited me out and then asked to split the bill. It was the first and last date I ever had with him. He practically begged me for a second date (sent me bouquets of flowers to my apartment) but I was hugely turned off by the whole experience. Interestingly enough he was a millionaire who'd made his money in cyber security during the early days of the internet. It still made no difference to me.
> 
> I agree with what the others here are trying to say....if you're looking for a genuine relationship, then stop looking at Golddiggers for dates. But if you're looking for nothing deeper than a sexual encounter, and are not able to find it the traditional way (at bars, clubs, etc..) then go ahead and pay for the girlfriend experience.


You may say you are a 5 but you are a 10 for authentic. That CEO was kicking himself to have read you so badly and messed up. Poor guy, just b/c one has money doesn't = high EQ.

I had a similar experience dating. Owner of a diamond import business who, based solely on our email and phone calls, was very persistent in wanting to go for dinner. Works schedules kept us from meeting and then I met and was dating my future husband. I told the fellow I was off-market, but he asked me to call him if things didn't work out. LOL. He was much more gracious than it sounds. I think it was because I told him I didn't own a single piece of diamond jewelry, but I did know quite a bit about their use in semi-conductors.


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## sapientia

Lila said:


> I think he was just cheap. He was good friends with a friend's boyfriend. When he told him that we'd gone on a date, my girlfriend called me immediately to let me know he was very tight with his money. I didn't need the confirmation but it was nice to know that I wasn't a complete b!tch.
> 
> Generosity, in all of it's forms, is a very attractive quality in people (men and women). Money is just one form. Time and talents are other forms. Unfortunately, we focus so much on the Money that we lose sight of the others. However you view generosity, it's a compatibility issue that should be addressed early on in the relationship.
> 
> I follow my Dad's buddhist view on money. It's like water. If you try to grab it, it flows away, but if you open your hands, it will move towards you.


Yep. What I said, Lila. You are a superb, rare and authentic person.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

caliguy2349 said:


> Well in the real world, women are not asking out strangers, and if they do it is extremely rare.. There really is no reason for this to even occur..
> 
> A guy will ask you out because he wants to sleep with you.. So, he can't just say "lets have sex" to a stranger... So he asks you out and doesnt mention sex..
> 
> Now for a woman to ask a guy out, she could just say "hey, let's have sex".. He would say yes or no.. He already knows the answer by looking at you. Nothing that happens on the date would change his mind..-


What do you mean, no reason for this to occur?
That's nuts. I kept my profile hidden in OLD. So the only way a guy could even know I existed is if I approached him first. One guy I was a little persistent. He thought maybe I was out of his league or something. But I know what I want. Pretty boys are a nuisance. And anyone who posts stuff on his profile like his house or nice car or at a resort or something, I just deleted. Weed out guys who think that what they can buy for a woman is what matters. 

You seem to have the assumption that women don't want to have sex, at all, if there is no money involved, and otherwise have no use for men as a companion or friend. That's nuts too. Like they need to be tricked into it, or bought or just are twits who have no other way of getting a nice meal or a trip or whatever it is you're offering. 

I also think that if you're looking for just sex on an OLD site where most of the people and a lot of the men are looking for relationships, then you're not going to have great luck. The 7's are not stupid, you think they have no experience weeding out guys who are going to drop some dollars on the table or flash some plastic and just want sex, instead of being willing to give them some loving? Oh boy.

So now you need a 7, but you also are requiring some stupidity or inexperience. I take it you're not getting any younger. Unless you can solve (or resolve) this problem, it's going to get a lot, lot worse for you. 

If you want decent sex, you're going to have to come up with something other than money. Otherwise you're always going to have second rate sex. There are some things money can't buy. I won't go into details, but use your imagination.


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## sapientia

SadSamIAm said:


> I have talked to him about it. But he is in love! They both have part time jobs.
> 
> When my wife and I were in college we went dutch because we both had so little. Later when we started working, I was making more and so I paid more often. When we had children, it didn't make sense for her to work as her job didn't pay much more than what daycare would have cost. Also she wanted to be home with the kids. We agreed together for her to stay home with the kids.
> 
> The kids are grown and my wife doesn't work. I make a very good living so she doesn't need to. I like that she is home. Makes our life less stressful.
> 
> I think my son sees our family as a good role model. In many ways it is.
> 
> My message to him isn't so much about who pays for what. It is about her sense of entitlement. My wife would never have expected me to pay and she would certainly be working if we needed the money.


Yes, well the power of the hormones is strong in the young...

You are ahead of me in the child-raising space, so all I will do is commiserate that, sometimes, you gotta let them make their own mistakes. Share your own experience, best you can do.

I have had the talk with my teenager about "emotions go up, intellect goes down. Explaining how sex hormones make you temporarily insane and can affect good judgement. I did this before he experienced the flux. He also has an open invitation to bounce his thinking off of us if he feels the need.

I have yet to meet a parent that doesn't have to leap off the cliff of faith at some point wrt their kids... I'm totally open to ideas if anyone has a different experience and wants to share, however. 

Best,
Sapi


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## Thundarr

caliguy2349 said:


> Well in the real world, women are not asking out strangers, and if they do it is extremely rare.. There really is no reason for this to even occur..
> 
> A guy will ask you out because he wants to sleep with you.. So, he can't just say "lets have sex" to a stranger... So he asks you out and doesnt mention sex..
> 
> Now for a woman to ask a guy out, she could just say "hey, let's have sex".. He would say yes or no.. He already knows the answer by looking at you. Nothing that happens on the date would change his mind..-


I don't think you appreciate how good we have it Caliguy. You're focused on double standards and don't see that we (men) have it good. We have control of our attractiveness. Maybe you're a good looking guy and it's annoying that average Joe' can take hot girls away from you due to other factors. But if you're shredded and in good shape then you'll get attention and if you're shredded and have your sh!t together then you'll get even more attention. The rules are simple though. Women find scrubs unattractive, they find pudge unattractive, and they find underachievers unattractive. At least these are things you have control to fix. And we even have a well known trump card. If you learn to play a guitar and sing then you're options increase ten fold with the exact group of women that you're interested in. Whining about it on forums unfortunately do nothing to help.

Some of your points are accurate and re enforced by comments in this thread like paying the way on a first date. But really you don't have to court every woman you want to be under the sheets with. If you become an athletic looking guy (and you can) then no strings hookups will happen if you want that.


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## caliguy2349

Lila said:


> You might not be but maybe you should take some lessons about dating from the younger generation? What have you got to lose? Based on your posts, it doesn't sound like your current process is working so well so try something else.
> 
> .


Well, I was 18-19 before, and of course it was a different ball game.. It was all about looks, love, never even thought of "money", and the women I usually dated were virgins or had one partner before..it was also about "popularity", instead of money..But even then, the hotter girls dated guys who had nice cars, jobs, were older etc..

Now there are certain parameters that fior me, make the dating pool smaller..

A. Must be single

B. Must be straight

C. Not obese

D. 25-34 yo

E. Not on anti-depressants/bipolar etc (1/4 of American women on anti-depressants)

So, just after the basics, I am left with a much smaller pool of women..

After that they of course must like me, ideally have other good traits that are important, want children, not mind that I have a son etc etc..And be height weight proportionate..

Now, what I have found is that the "girls you pay" has become much much more common with the internet, and more relaxed views on female sexuality..I know this for several reasons..

Girls who fit my original paramaters:

A. On regular sites like POF, MAtch, tinder mention Pay to play

B. Thousands of girls in my city on other sites where they want to be paid..

C. Had a guy who worked for me whose long time gf basically became a hooker, as she was influenced by other young girls who worked at Dunkin Donuts..Devesated him.Came to find out that "madams" have a huge network of girls in my city that are young, cute, and all work at basic jobs like Dunkin Donuts, target, Walmart etc etc.

D. Had a cute target worker approach me, we exchanged numbers, and she was overtly sexual via text, then mentioning she has bills to pay etc..


So, my already smallish pool seemingly is being overrun by girls who overtly "charge", or have charged in the past due to changing societal morals, ease and anonymity of the internet, perhaps an even more materilistic culture, and female role models who are all about "being rich" just by having a big ass, making sex tapes, or being pretty and marrying rich men..


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## Lila

coffee4me said:


> You can't get a date with a girl who is a 7 so you want to pay one to go out with you.
> 
> It's like the site I read about says "start dating with your wallet".
> 
> *Please report back how this works out for you, how much you spend and what you actually gained by paying women to meet you. I'm interested in reading about your experience.*


Might be considered morbid curiosity, but I too would like to hear about your experience with these dating websites.


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## Lila

caliguy2349 said:


> So, my already smallish pool seemingly is being overrun by girls who overtly "charge", or have charged in the past due to changing societal morals, ease and anonymity of the internet, perhaps an even more materilistic culture, and female role models who are all about "being rich" just by having a big ass, making sex tapes, or being pretty and marrying rich men..


Sounds like you recognize the requirements to catch the proverbial fish in the pond of your choice. So what's keeping you from doing it?


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## coffee4me

*Divorced guys, would you pay for &quot;company&quot;*



caliguy2349 said:


> So, my already smallish pool seemingly is being overrun by girls who overtly "charge", or have charged in the past due to changing societal morals, ease and anonymity of the internet, perhaps an even more materilistic culture, and female role models who are all about "being rich" just by having a big ass, making sex tapes, or being pretty and marrying rich men..



You seem associate with a pool of women who are quite different than the young women that I know. I asked my sons gf about this last night, she 19 and has a sister 24. She said she never heard of such a thing as getting paid to date none of her friends would do this. Her sister and her friends go out on regular dates with people they are interested people in. These girls are in college or out of college starting careers. 

I asked her if she thought there was anything wrong with taking money or expensive gifts to go on dates. She said yes there is something wrong with it because "I'm not a prostitute". 

I don't think societies morals have changed as much as you think. It's just the pool of people you like to be around, to each their own.


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## Ynot

Lila said:


> Sounds like you recognize the requirements to catch the proverbial fish in the pond of your choice. So what's keeping you from doing it?


He just wants someone - anyone to agree with him. Otherwise he wouldn't keep getting on here day after day yammering on and on about his justifications. I have read at least three or four other posters who have all told him to just do it if that is what he wants. But that isn't what he wants to hear. He wants, no apparently NEEDS someone to agree with him.


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## Jim455

While this thread has gotten tiresome for me I’m glad to see it here. As a guy, I (and my friends) have pondered this on a superficial level many times, especially during my deep, dark moments of anger and frustration. OP’s focus seems to basically come down to “sex with a 7+ woman". As a STBXH of a certain age.... well... been there, done that, bought the t-shirt..... 

I truly have no interest in “scoring”. I have my kids, my career plus plenty of things nearby to keep me more that occupied. I was on Match briefly early on in my separation just for kicks and discovered zero appeal to any of it. (for me, that is. Not being judgmental here) I don’t “need” anyone. If I stumble into someone in the future great. I’ll gladly buy the coffee. And dinner. And, if we truly connect, whatever happens after that will be automatic. And it will be epic. Now that I am in a position to “pay for play”, it’s just nope nope nope. 

While I do understand/appreciate the reasoning behind some of these OLD sites and the logic people have to sign up, the thought that I somehow “bought” my daughter and son’s “step-mom” nauseates me.


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## caliguy2349

Jim455 said:


> While I do understand/appreciate the reasoning behind some of these OLD sites and the logic people have to sign up, the thought that I somehow “bought” my daughter and son’s “step-mom” nauseates me.


I think many factors are at play.. Govt interference, sex, money, popular culture, technology, different views of divorce and marriage etc..

An example of changing times could be how society views gays.. 40 years ago they were mentally ill, now largely applauded and accepted... Or cheating.. Every divorce attorney told me "Look, cheating these days makes no difference at court. With the internet and ease, everyone is doing it.."

So many men I know, myself included, have this mentality where they want to take care of their wife and family,. provide, and that is more or less the older view of money/marriage.. In reality, this is VERY expensive, but done because it is just being a "good man". You are still paying for years because you signed a piece of paper.. Paying I guess for "sex" you had a few times in the past with this person. 

In return, you ideally should get "love", a partner for life, someone to stick by you "richer or poorer", if you fall ill, etc etc.. Raising a family..

Now, with everything largely changing, I feel it should go one of two ways ..

A. Women stand up and fight for true equality.. Everything 50/50, if you decide not to work during a marriage that is your own choice, end alimony, and child support is a set amount.. Not tied to a man's future earnings.. Why does one woman get 300 a month, and another $4000?

B. Let's call it what it all basically is, sex for money.

There is a lot of stupidity/ignorance/naievety among men who have yet to be married. 

A good example is the guy who married my ex.. He spent a good $70,000 within one year, just on her to "win the good girl".. Right before she is giving birth to his kid, she is texting me she wishes we didnt divorce.

Now others see her situation, and it is not prostituion.. It was love, being happy, and he is a guy who "doesnt pay for sex". He is a "good provider"

And before you say "i picked wrong", or "that's just my case", I see this happen to many of my friends and acquaintences around my age.. 

But if I raise the question, "Why not just pay a gf instead the traditional route, due to soceity changes", people are like "Aww man, I would never pay for sex.. that just irks me" etc etc


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## caliguy2349

A gf of mine was just telling me yesterday about a woman who came into her store with a huge diamond ring.. And how all the girls who work there proceeded to talk about this ring with looks of wonder and amazement on their faces.. All basically saying "Wow, did you see that!! one day i want a ring like that"

Now to me, I would logically conclude women who desire some super expensive rock just to show off, are basically worse than "escorts". How many women would that be? How many women would rather marry based on material things, than "love"? 

So, I guess this is my main question..


Women almost universally say "i want to marry for love, not money" When asked..

But, in the female brain, due to biology or evolution, or whatever you want to call it, does love "form" based on the prospects of security, shiny trinkets, a certain lifestyle?? So they arent really lying when they say they want "love", but love just happens to form with money in the picture..

I notice this from a young age..An example could be when I bartended and the owner was a pudgy middle age average guy.. 

When he came in, women stood around him, and everything he said was soooo funny... He was "sooo attractive" etc..You could see these girls and women gazing at him, hear them talk about him etc etc.. it wasn't an act.. Meanwhile the ripped and charismatic bartenders were not funny.. Not talked about.. More or less just coworkers..

Another example could be a lawyer I dated.. She sold legal software, along with other female staff..This division had a huge problem, because 7 of these women were sleeping with the company CEO.. (highly educated women who fell in "love" with the married CEO.

So do women "fall in love" differently? More or less with the entire picture in mind, as opposed to men who could "fall in love" with a cute cashier, bank teller, waitress, or struggling student?

if the answer is yes, I conclude it is all sex for resources.. Some are more honest and in touch with what they want, while others use wording to obscure their intentions, or might not even know themselves..


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## sapientia

I would say for many the answer is 'yes'. My opinion is based on a biological argument. Women are, currently, highly bound by reproduction. It is my hope that future technology removes this constraint but for now it is still our reality.

Bearing children is an inherently risky business, from a health and financial perspective. So women are programmed to seek a mate who can provide security for her and her child, particularly during the early, most vulnerable years.

Now, modern society permits women, such as myself, to be capable of raising a child financially independent of a man. But that is quite a difficult thing to do, and one mistake, a single lapse in contraception, means that a young woman potentially loses the ability to better herself professionally to be in that position.

Some, due to the circumstances of their own upbringing, don't even have the chance to attempt this, so they look for security in a mate.

fwiw


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## Thundarr

caliguy2349 said:


> A gf of mine was just telling me yesterday about a woman who came into her store with a huge diamond ring.. And how all the girls who work there proceeded to talk about this ring with looks of wonder and amazement on their faces.. All basically saying "Wow, did you see that!! one day i want a ring like that"
> 
> Now to me, I would logically conclude women who desire some super expensive rock just to show off, are basically worse than "escorts". How many women would that be? How many women would rather marry based on material things, than "love"?
> 
> So, I guess this is my main question..
> 
> 
> Women almost universally say "i want to marry for love, not money" When asked..
> 
> But, in the female brain, due to biology or evolution, or whatever you want to call it, does love "form" based on the prospects of security, shiny trinkets, a certain lifestyle?? So they arent really lying when they say they want "love", but love just happens to form with money in the picture..
> 
> I notice this from a young age..An example could be when I bartended and the owner was a pudgy middle age average guy..
> 
> When he came in, women stood around him, and everything he said was soooo funny... He was "sooo attractive" etc..You could see these girls and women gazing at him, hear them talk about him etc etc.. it wasn't an act.. Meanwhile the ripped and charismatic bartenders were not funny.. Not talked about.. More or less just coworkers..
> 
> Another example could be a lawyer I dated.. She sold legal software, along with other female staff..This division had a huge problem, because 7 of these women were sleeping with the company CEO.. (highly educated women who fell in "love" with the married CEO.
> 
> So do women "fall in love" differently? More or less with the entire picture in mind, as opposed to men who could "fall in love" with a cute cashier, bank teller, waitress, or struggling student?
> 
> if the answer is yes, I conclude it is all sex for resources.. Some are more honest and in touch with what they want, while others use wording to obscure their intentions, or might not even know themselves..


I'm a sucker for evo-science. It's a shame that so many reject evolution as being a factor in gender interaction. There's no denying that evolution influences what men and women find attractive in the opposite sex on average (statistically speaking). But that notion gets pissed off responses fast at TAM because to many are looking for a reason to be offended I guess. Even though I agree with your comment here, I'm still not a fan of ever reducing intimacy to money transactions though. At least not in today's world. I've just not found that it's necessary for any guy willing to put in some effort. This double standard gives us the ability to achieve what we want based on effort and that's a cool thing.


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## ConanHub

Cali. I guess I don't think you have a problem.

You are very correct in your assessment of aspects of human existence that have always existed and I don't see harm.

If this is the route you choose them more power to you but I would suggest cultivating yourself beyond just the monetary exchange.

I don't think I would ever go your route but I have always had an abundance of easy access to attractive females.

As another poster pointed out, I don't have the same understanding as a sex starved man.

As long as there is honesty with you and your partner, I don't think it is wrong.

If a woman wants to trade her beauty with your finances and both of you are honest and comfortable with it, why not?

Not for me but I don't see anything horrible about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub

P.S. I was the ripped bartender and I couldn't fight the women off with a machete.

Wealth is attractive but not even close to everything.

I was fairly penniless but never suffered from lack of female attention. Many women had far more money than me and were happy to finance our dates.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr

ConanHub said:


> P.S. I was the ripped bartender and I couldn't fight the women off with a machete.
> 
> Wealth is attractive but not even close to everything.
> 
> I was fairly penniless but never suffered from lack of female attention. Many women had far more money than me and were happy to finance our dates.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally I like your outlook ConanHub. Caliguy has a point though, if you were the same ripped bartender but with a yacht then you'd have needed two machetes and and a bodyguard to boot. Switch the genders to a hot woman with money and it's still mostly about physical appearance (not all but mostly).


----------



## Jim455

caliguy2349 said:


> I think many factors are at play.. Govt interference, sex, money, popular culture, technology, different views of divorce and marriage etc..


Yes, government interference and a naturally/self-servingly hostile legal system is a huge factor in today's marital dynamics.



caliguy2349 said:


> Now, with everything largely changing, I feel it should go one of two ways ..
> 
> A. Women stand up and fight for true equality.. Everything 50/50, if you decide not to work during a marriage that is your own choice, end alimony, and child support is a set amount.. Not tied to a man's future earnings.. Why does one woman get 300 a month, and another $4000?
> 
> B. Let's call it what it all basically is, sex for money.


As for "A", that might come down to standard of living a couple had. As an exaggerated example, if we lived as a family in a huge mansion, I would look/feel like an a$$ if my STBXW should be forced into a trailer park. Obviously after splitting things the mansion is probably no longer attainable for either of us. So that should certainly not be the standard that should be upheld by the courts.



caliguy2349 said:


> There is a lot of stupidity/ignorance/naievety among men who have yet to be married.


In this day and age with virtually everyone having heard/witnessed/endured an ugly divorce, I'd like to think men (and women) are becoming more aware of the potential challenges to marriage. Some will respond with "nope. no marriage for me". I for one certainly hope that the social evolution that we (the residents of TAM) are embroiled in will result in a better understanding of the complexities of marriage and that there will eventually be a better support system pre and post marriage to keep couples from getting into trouble.


As for your list of "two ways" things should go, I would respectfully add to a third....

C. A formally acknowledged mutual respect, understanding and appreciation for each other individually and as long term companions.

For me, my first priority is not (ahem) "getting my rocks off" but companionship. I get it how society has reduced the male/female dynamics to Pay for Play/Tinder-esque dynamics. Plenty of people seem to be comfortable with that. (again, trying hard not to be judgmental but I think there may be some level of sexual/intellectual immaturity at play there)

The idea of finding someone that you can truly connect with, that over a little time evolves into a mutual commitment, that escalates into finding yourself with your SO repeatedly/contentedly sans-clothes, intertwined/sweaty/exhausted/craving each others musk/having no desire to untangle yourselves from under the blankets on the living room floor, discovering the sun coming up, popcorn everywhere, Netflix wondering if you are still there..... Ohhhhh mannnn..............

Yea, *that's* the ticket.

And if you find this person via the typical routes or through whatever flavor of OLD sites, quite honestly, who is anyone to judge. 

So, being a day older, a day wiser, with regards to my statement....



Jim455 said:


> the thought that I somehow “bought” my daughter and son’s “step-mom” nauseates me.


... I wish to retract that. 

It just dawned on me that I "bought" my STBXW via a pre-internet (1990) dating service. (yea yea, I hear you laughing. It's ok. We're all bro's and babes here.....) I didn't bite on their heavily pitched $999 annual fee but, a month or so later fell for a $399 for 3 months promo. What a bargain I got :/

Ok Caliguy, you got my blessings. 

While your focus might be sex, and mine companionship, I might be right behind you..... (Geez guys, "metaphorically speaking" of course....lol)


----------



## BetrayedDad

caliguy2349 said:


> C. Had a guy who worked for me whose long time gf basically became a hooker, as she was influenced by other young girls who worked at Dunkin Donuts..Devesated him.Came to find out that "madams" have a huge network of girls in my city that are young, cute, and all work at basic jobs like Dunkin Donuts, target, Walmart etc etc.


Wait... Wait... Wait a minute..... California has Dunkin Donuts now?




caliguy2349 said:


> D. Had a cute target worker approach me, we exchanged numbers, and she was overtly sexual via text, then mentioning she has bills to pay etc...


What Target do you go to? The one next to the bunny ranch? Do you drive out that far?


----------



## parati

I wouldn't pay them for dating me, no. Usually the cost of dating them was low. I was divorced in my early 30's and then had good success with dating/sex with younger women, in their 20's and some wild ones in their 30's. The younger women like the older guys and are thinking about marriage, and I've always been open to a serious relationship with them if it went in that direction, so no need to pay or spend thousands on them as some guys do when they go over-the-top.


----------



## Tulanian

I wouldn't pay for sex, no. But I did recently visit a strip club, and I hit it off with one of the shot girls. We talked for a good while. She also does lap dances, so I bought one from her. Yes, she's physically very attractive but something else caught my attention. I honestly can't say what. I told her if I wasn't too chicken I would have asked for an actual date. She said she has kids, I said so do I (maybe that throws most customers off of their interest). 

I went back the next night to see her, talked for another couple or three hours. Then the night after, again just for the chance to sit at a table and talk to her. Asked for her number the third night, got her FB instead. She accepted the request, but didn't message past the first exchange. I went back again the next Monday, she said she'd lost her phone (which correlated to the timing of her going dark on FB). She said she'd call once she found it. 

Throughout the whole several-day process I told her I totally get why dating a customer is an issue, and if I'm barking up the wrong tree just say so and I'm gone. I also told her I was serious, even if just for a quick cup of coffee so we could talk like grownups. She didn't ever say I was going up the wrong tree, but she hasn't called either and I know she has her phone now (FB went active again).

All of which very likely means I'm A) a big cliche, eg strip club customer who gets smitten with an employee; and B) a giant idiot for thinking I was in a different scenario.

Assuming she HAD accepted a real-life date, would the fact that I'd bought dances from her mean it was a version of pay-to-play? I don't know. Maybe in some sense. It's not even a d*ck thing, none of the other beautiful women in the place caught my attention like that. Sure, I watched them. I tipped. I even talked to a few of them (part of the reason I went was just to talk to beautiful women instead of sitting at home and brooding). But I wasn't drawn to them like that. I still feel smitten, still can't quite say why. My feelings are morons and need to shut up.


----------



## Elizabeth001

Tulanian said:


> I wouldn't pay for sex, no. But I did recently visit a strip club, and I hit it off with one of the shot girls. We talked for a good while. She also does lap dances, so I bought one from her. Yes, she's physically very attractive but something else caught my attention. I honestly can't say what. I told her if I wasn't too chicken I would have asked for an actual date. She said she has kids, I said so do I (maybe that throws most customers off of their interest).
> 
> 
> 
> I went back the next night to see her, talked for another couple or three hours. Then the night after, again just for the chance to sit at a table and talk to her. Asked for her number the third night, got her FB instead. She accepted the request, but didn't message past the first exchange. I went back again the next Monday, she said she'd lost her phone (which correlated to the timing of her going dark on FB). She said she'd call once she found it.
> 
> 
> 
> Throughout the whole several-day process I told her I totally get why dating a customer is an issue, and if I'm barking up the wrong tree just say so and I'm gone. I also told her I was serious, even if just for a quick cup of coffee so we could talk like grownups. She didn't ever say I was going up the wrong tree, but she hasn't called either and I know she has her phone now (FB went active again).
> 
> 
> 
> All of which very likely means I'm A) a big cliche, eg strip club customer who gets smitten with an employee; and B) a giant idiot for thinking I was in a different scenario.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming she HAD accepted a real-life date, would the fact that I'd bought dances from her mean it was a version of pay-to-play? I don't know. Maybe in some sense. It's not even a d*ck thing, none of the other beautiful women in the place caught my attention like that. Sure, I watched them. I tipped. I even talked to a few of them (part of the reason I went was just to talk to beautiful women instead of sitting at home and brooding). But I wasn't drawn to them like that. I still feel smitten, still can't quite say why. My feelings are morons and need to shut up.



Bwahaaahaa...some of you guys are morons. That's a good thing though because if you weren't, the girls wouldn't make any money. lol


----------



## Elizabeth001

bwaaaaahaaaa!


----------



## Tulanian

Elizabeth001 said:


> Bwahaaahaa...some of you guys are morons. That's a good thing though because if you weren't, the girls wouldn't make any money. lol


Yes, as I said, cliched and stupid.

Oddly enough, it doesn't feel very funny at the moment. Nobody wants that moment where they realize they've been an utter fool.


----------



## Elizabeth001

No but you bought her boyfriend a steak or 2. lol 

Sorry...former dancer here


----------



## kristin2349

Tulanian said:


> Yes, as I said, cliched and stupid.
> 
> Oddly enough, it doesn't feel very funny at the moment. Nobody wants that moment where they realize they've been an utter fool.



I can see why that doesn't feel funny, that sucks to feel like that. I know you are still feeling stung by your Ex.


----------



## Wolf1974

Tulanian said:


> Yes, as I said, cliched and stupid.
> 
> Oddly enough, it doesn't feel very funny at the moment. Nobody wants that moment where they realize they've been an utter fool.


Easy man, you aren't the only guy who ever fell for this. I took my little brother to a strip club once and he "hit it off with a dancer" I kept telling him stop buying her dances and drinks and she won't be here anymore but he didn't believe me. Couple hundred later he says hey she is going to meet us out back and hang with us for the night.....man come on don't do this......but out the back we went and waited for 45 min. He was then convinced that she just got held up so tried to get back in, bouncer wouldn't let him back in.

Hard lesson to learn...you're not alone don't beat yourself up too much. When we crave and want attention it's easy to get lost in a fantasy


----------



## Tulanian

Well, one thing I figured out as I realized that this was a mere fantasy was that I was doing a really extreme version of avoidance. I've got a ton of shyte going on right now in the real world. A strip club is literally the farthest possible thing from my actual life. Not for moral reasons or anything like that, just because it's not my type of scene. Spending several evenings there was putting me in a nice little dream bubble far removed from actual life events and issues. 

As for being stupid, what caught me by surprise wasn't that I found someone visually appealing. There are lots of women whose beauty I admire. There were several at the club more conventionally beautiful than this one shot girl. What threw me was that this was the first woman I'd met since my ex who I wanted to see again right after meeting her, not for sex or anything but just to talk. Just to be in her presence. When she told me about negative things she'd experienced with other men, I felt this powerful urge to...treat her well. Not to rescue her, not to fix her, but to be good to her for its own sake. One of the worst parts of my divorce was realizing that I had failed in treating my wife as well as she deserved. 

I don't connect with very many people. As much as I love women (and prefer them as people to most men, call it a product of having four older sisters), even the ones I'm physically attracted to don't often "click" for me (or more accurately I probably don't click for them). On the rare occasions where I feel that intangible link, it is very powerful for me. More so when it happens for reasons mysterious even to me. Emotions that I can't explain or rationally understand really catch me off balance.


----------



## dadstartingover

Tulanian said:


> Yes, as I said, cliched and stupid.
> 
> Oddly enough, it doesn't feel very funny at the moment. Nobody wants that moment where they realize they've been an utter fool.


Live and learn, my friend. Men have done FAR worse in the name of hoohah.


----------



## dadstartingover

Tulanian said:


> When she told me about negative things she'd experienced with other men, I felt this powerful urge to...treat her well. Not to rescue her, not to fix her, but to be good to her for its own sake. One of the worst parts of my divorce was realizing that I had failed in treating my wife as well as she deserved.


You are in for a world of hurt, dude. Have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yet? The book was made for you.


----------



## Tulanian

dadstartingover.com said:


> You are in for a world of hurt, dude. Have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yet? The book was made for you.


No, what's the premise?


----------



## dadstartingover

Tulanian said:


> No, what's the premise?


Google it. Dr. Glover is the author. It's on Amazon. That was the start of my journey.


----------



## kristin2349

Tulanian said:


> No, what's the premise?



Here is a link for the free PDF version:

https://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


----------



## Jim455

dadstartingover.com said:


> You are in for a world of hurt, dude. Have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" yet? The book was made for you.


Lo and behold, I noticed it on my Kindle list. I forgot why I bought it. I guess I need to read it again. Thanks for bringing it up. (and here I am ruminating about an upcoming deposition, making excuses for my STBXW.... someone please crack me over the head with a baseball bat...)


----------



## Thundarr

We need a thread in the ladies lounge asking divorced gals if they would pay for "company".


----------



## Rowan

Thundarr said:


> We need a thread in the ladies lounge asking divorced gals if they would pay for "company".


I wouldn't. I already paid a rather appalling sum of money, and two decades of my life, for a non-monogamous (at least on his end) relationship with a guy who mostly just showed up for sex. As a not-entirely-unfortunate-looking woman, I can get sex for free with men who at least aren't obviously contemptuous of me.


----------



## Tulanian

dadstartingover.com said:


> Google it. Dr. Glover is the author. It's on Amazon. That was the start of my journey.


I looked it up. Codependency. Looks promising, but I have a few other self-help titles to work through first. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## pragmaster

Sex and sexual favors is one thing. Like the age old comedian said: "You don't pay for sex, you pay them to leave after". There is nothing wrong with that...(law depending). My recommendation is to NEVER pick up the street walkers. That's horrible in so many ways. 

Company? I don't know. I think that's weak. Pickup a social hobby and meet people there. Dancing & yoga are my top two recommendations!!! Try and make friends not partners. 

It's not hard. I'm a younger guy though so maybe it's tougher for the older fellas. 

You need to learn to be your best company.


----------



## Thundarr

pragmaster said:


> Sex and sexual favors is one thing. Like the age old comedian said: "You don't pay for sex, you pay them to leave after". There is nothing wrong with that...(law depending). My recommendation is to NEVER pick up the street walkers. That's horrible in so many ways.
> 
> Company? I don't know. I think that's weak. Pickup a social hobby and meet people there. Dancing & yoga are my top two recommendations!!! Try and make friends not partners.
> 
> It's not hard. I'm a younger guy though so maybe it's tougher for the older fellas.
> 
> You need to learn to be your best company.


Yea it seems like giving up or self deception to outright give money for companionship. It feels like the easy way out and it's difficult to respect the rationalization.


----------



## Healer

There is a name for these women. They're called "escorts".


----------



## caliguy2349

*Update*

Ok, so met a girl off the site.. Agreed on 150.. Good looking 23 yo..Works 2 jobs, said she does this as she got into a financial mess after her break up with ex.

Met out for a drink, and I handed her $150.. She didn't ask, but I just wanted that out of the way. We were genuinely having a good time, went back to my place, she spent the night..

Next day she was texting me etc, so we met again a few days later.. She spent the night, gave her 150...She seemed to feel odd taking it, but did..

Next day we talked and she said she is falling for me, and won't accept my money... So over the month we got together about 10 times, which was basically her coming over to spend the night. She wasn't into going out, etc...Actually would eat before coming over, so nothing at all spent..

At this point the issue became what exactly is it? She doesn't have time for a relationship, still has financial issues, and I am not ready either recently out of a divorce. So I suggested seeing each other once a week, and I will give her 100..


----------



## arbitrator

*Re: Update*



caliguy2349 said:


> Ok, so met a girl off the site.. Agreed on 150.. Good looking 23 yo..Works 2 jobs, said she does this as she got into a financial mess after her break up with ex.
> 
> Met out for a drink, and I handed her $150.. She didn't ask, but I just wanted that out of the way. We were genuinely having a good time, went back to my place, she spent the night..
> 
> Next day she was texting me etc, so we met again a few days later.. She spent the night, gave her 150...She seemed to feel odd taking it, but did..
> 
> Next day we talked and she said she is falling for me, and won't accept my money... So over the month we got together about 10 times, which was basically her coming over to spend the night. She wasn't into going out, etc...Actually would eat before coming over, so nothing at all spent..
> 
> At this point the issue became what exactly is it? She doesn't have time for a relationship, still has financial issues, and I am not ready either recently out of a divorce. So I suggested seeing each other once a week, and I will give her 100..


*Pardon me, but does "staying all night" equate to having sex of any kind?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

Sex? More than anything, I want my wife to desire sex with me, to want sex with me, to be turned on. I don't think that ever happen with her. That's what I crave most of all. In don't believe I would have that with an escort. I know that they would be acting.

When I go back 25 years ago, during my Navy days, my gf was a stripper. She wasn't a stripper when we met, at least I didn't think so. I met her in line at the movie theater and there was a mutual attraction. She would be on the peir when my ship would come in. We never went out on a real date. It was just sex. I felt she desired me. Then one evening, I was at a strip club with friends, and there she was. After her performance, she came to our table sat on my lap.(not a lap dance). Then asked if I was ready to go. Talk about an ego boost. I never paid or gave her a dime and never took her out on a date. She didn't want that.

Another gf after the Navy was the same. I met her at a club and I thought it was going to be a ONS. It lasted for over six months. I wanted to take her out, but she never cared about that. She just came over to hang out and sex. She didnt like conversation, she wanted sex. After sex, she would leave by 3 in the morning or so. She never stayed all night. When I wanted more, when I revealed my baggage, she was gone.

My wife was the total opposite. My wife was a 25 year old virgin, After 23 years, she still doesn't desire sex, she never will. She was and probably still is my best friend. I hate that. I revealed my baggage early on, and she stayed.

SHE WAS MY FIRST REAL GF.

I want it all. I want to be desired, I want friendship, and I want love. I don't want sex out of obligation.

When a man pays for sex, the desire usually isn't there. That's the part that breaks my heart.

I feel unattractive at my age. I don't know what I would/will do when that time comes.


----------



## caliguy2349

*Re: Update*



arbitrator said:


> *Pardon me, but does "staying all night" equate to having sex of any kind?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My bad.. Yes, thats basically all we do. Hang out, have sex, talk, etc.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

Re: pay for company?

No. Gold diggers are revolting enough at best of times. If you're wanting your end off etc get a prostitute, you'll get just as much caring and twice the honesty.

As for the rate. What's untrained wage per hour in your area? Maybe more for expertise and experience, tips for top service.

How much would you pay a guy.
How much would she be willing to pay for honesty? Or romance? Or family support?


----------



## arbitrator

*I really cannot help but feel that moreso than for the invigorating sex act itself, that most singles preemptively yearn for the physical closeness, the affection, the post-coital touch, and the afterglow with a person of the opposite sex!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

arbitrator said:


> *I really cannot help but feel that moreso than for the invigorating sex act itself, that most singles preemptively yearn for the physical closeness, the affection, the post-coital touch, and the afterglow with a person of the opposite sex!*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course. And the girls on these sites aren't much different
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## caliguy2349

caliguy2349 said:


> Of course. And the girls on these sites aren't much different
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel times have changed. Young girls aren't in a hurry to get married. 

So they have school debt, rent, car payments, and struggle. 

How many girls are "good girls" but have their family paying all of their bills?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

caliguy2349 said:


> A gf of mine was just telling me yesterday about a woman who came into her store with a huge diamond ring.. And how all the girls who work there proceeded to talk about this ring with looks of wonder and amazement on their faces.. All basically saying "Wow, did you see that!! one day i want a ring like that"
> 
> Now to me, I would logically conclude women who desire some super expensive rock just to show off, are basically worse than "escorts". How many women would that be? How many women would rather marry based on material things, than "love"?
> 
> So, I guess this is my main question..
> 
> 
> Women almost universally say "i want to marry for love, not money" When asked..
> 
> But, in the female brain, due to biology or evolution, or whatever you want to call it, does love "form" based on the prospects of security, shiny trinkets, a certain lifestyle?? So they arent really lying when they say they want "love", but love just happens to form with money in the picture..
> 
> I notice this from a young age..An example could be when I bartended and the owner was a pudgy middle age average guy..
> 
> When he came in, women stood around him, and everything he said was soooo funny... He was "sooo attractive" etc..You could see these girls and women gazing at him, hear them talk about him etc etc.. it wasn't an act.. Meanwhile the ripped and charismatic bartenders were not funny.. Not talked about.. More or less just coworkers..
> 
> Another example could be a lawyer I dated.. She sold legal software, along with other female staff..This division had a huge problem, because 7 of these women were sleeping with the company CEO.. (highly educated women who fell in "love" with the married CEO.
> 
> So do women "fall in love" differently? More or less with the entire picture in mind, as opposed to men who could "fall in love" with a cute cashier, bank teller, waitress, or struggling student?
> 
> if the answer is yes, I conclude it is all sex for resources.. Some are more honest and in touch with what they want, while others use wording to obscure their intentions, or might not even know themselves..


II have a divorced a female friend that I will have lunch dates with. She tells me that she will never marry for money, but she will never marry or even become romantically involved with a poor man. So the waiter, cashier, bank teller, warehouse worker, bluecollar worker, or anybody earning less than 6 figures would be out of the question. She wouldn't even give it a chance. Lack of money is a deal breaker.


----------



## Holland

As long as you are cool with being one of many then knock yourself out OP and pay her $100 a week for one night of sex. As long as you are both happy with a pay for play set up then yay for you. 

As for lack of money being a deal breaker, for me personally it is but it would be foolish of me to be in a serious relationship or marry a man that is not wealthy, I believe in financial equality and that like should be with like especially post divorce.


----------



## pragmaster

The secret is always pay with fake money.

PSYCH!!!


----------



## caliguy2349

Holland said:


> As long as you are cool with being one of many then knock yourself out OP and pay her $100 a week for one night of sex. As long as you are both happy with a pay for play set up then yay for you.
> 
> As for lack of money being a deal breaker, for me personally it is but it would be foolish of me to be in a serious relationship or marry a man that is not wealthy, I believe in financial equality and that like should be with like especially post divorce.




I was essentially paying my ex wife 10 times that amount and not even having sex, lol.. Now some new guy is married to her, paying her 10 times the amount, not having sex, and also risking his entire economic future.. 

I guess with any girl I date I might be "one of the many," and she might be as well..Either way it all comes down to spending money..


----------



## Chuck71

caliguy2349 said:


> There is another thread about online dating, and this made me think..Here are my observations..
> 
> Observations:
> 
> I have been out of dating for 6 years..It seems, online dating has changed..I rarely see attractive (real) women on traditional dating sites.. And I do not mean supermodel beauty, but just height/weight proportionate, have a job, don't have several kids etc.
> 
> Also, while being a divorced dad, my time is more important. I have my son 35-40% of the time, need to work more hours etc..So a free night is valuable..
> 
> After divorce, I tried traditional sites... If you find that one cute girl, chances are she gets 300 emails a day..And when you finally get a date, about half the time they flake.. As well as other times they are already in a relationship, just sort of "crazy", serial daters, etc..
> 
> So, I noticed all of these sites spring up where men pay women to go on dates..This also seems to be where all the decent looking /attractive women headed. (supply and demand)
> 
> So, I put a profile on one of these sites, and get about 5 to 10 emails a day from women 20-35 years old. (compared to traditional dating where 1 BBW a month with 4 kids says you are cute)
> 
> I guess how it works is you pay the girl 150 for your date, and do whatever you want.. Sex may or may not happen, but seemingly more likely than not if there is an attraction. The girls don't "flake", and there is an endless supply of any kind of woman you want..Most have full time jobs (nurses, retail, accountants etc)
> 
> Now as for the downside, obviously you are more or less paying for sex. But on the other hand, (aside from internet banter where women post they pay for dates), men always pay for dates anyway.. The dude who married my ex wife must have spent 70k in the last year just to marry my wife... But I guess when it is "love" it isn't prostitution..(along with a guarantee of all his future earnings)
> 
> So what do you guys think? Good? bad? pathetic? I mean obviously not the most ideal situation, but it seems to be how things are headed between men and women..


Replying after 1st post..... I'm sure others may have pointed it out.....

I am familiar with this site. It is under investigation. Been around about four years.


----------



## SurpriseMyself

This thread is filled with generalizations, societal expectations, gender stereotypes, and on and on.

Will she have sex with me if I pay for dinner and drinks? How expensive does the meal need to be for her to feel I've recognized her worth? Does she have kids? Can she afford to pay half and will she?

If you want a woman that wears expensive shoes, looks just right all the time, to hang on your arm, be willing to pay. That look doesn't come cheap.

Now, say you want that ...want a woman who shows up to your first date with hair and nails and makeup and clothes out of a magazine, willingly pays half, and then has sex with you that night? You must be a hell of a stud: smart, funny, have your own money, have your sh-t together, little baggage, etc. You ask for the whole package in a partner, you have to be that for them, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chuck71

I guess I am a traditionalist as I, the guy, fully expect to cover the 1st date. Almost every female has offered to go dutch at the end of the meal. I appreciated the offer and said it was not necessary. What I do look for is if they offer to pay the tip. Good sign if they do, if they don't.... still completely fine. 

2nd date.... I go in fully expecting to cover all (guys always go in expecting to cover entire check.... ladies always go in prepared to pay your half if needed). By this time.... I do not get offended at all if the female does not offer to go dutch or she pay. I place more focus on would she offer to cover the tip. If she does not offer..... it is not a red flag at all but I begin to pull back on the money I place on the date. BTW.... this has happened once in my current year of dating and it never happened in the years before I met my now XW. By the 3rd and 4th date.... you know if there is anything there. If there is not and you feel "she is just going out with you for a free meal" then time to move on.

"Mostly" I pay for the 1st date. 50% of the time she pays tip (75% ask to, when I say I don't mind, 25% allow me to pay). 2nd date... 25% she pays (I offer, she says I pay, I want to), 25% go dutch (her request) and I cover tip, 25% I pay each, she covers tip each, 25% I pay for meal and tip. Yes I actually track this.... I'm a huge # cruncher. Get it from growing up loving baseball.

On all but one... the 25% I pay for meal and tip.... before the 2nd date is over.... she has planned a 3rd date where she covers all expenses or she is cooking at her place and I am invited. Who pays is a hot topic in the first few dates. If a female sees potential in a guy and a LTR, she will go above and beyond the call to let him know she is interested.

But Chuck.... don't you meet these type of females who are obsessed with money and status? Glad you asked.... I have. My doctorate 2B is in psychology. I can read people quite well... part of that I credit to my parents. I am an expert at conversation and if you know what to look for.... most people "tell on themselves." If I interact with a female OLD... we chat on the site, go to phone. I require one phone conversation before I meet them. The phone chat can tell a lot. The longer they want to talk (1st convo or up until we meet) the better it is for me. Granted I do not have a smart phone nor do I text. I offer phone chat, FB back chat, or emails. None choose emails any more. 

A female is not going to gain interest in you by what restaurant you go to, it will be from the conversation. Females correct me if I am wrong but more emphasis is placed on the conversation after lunch / dinner than the initial. If there is any type of possible attraction at first glimpse.... the dinner convo will be light hearted due to nerves / jitters. If my attractiveness is placed on the place we eat... I seriously doubt we are a match. Granted the 1st date where you sit down and eat is not a fast food joint. Usually if the female is money / status driven, I can tell that by her profile or phone chat. If not... always on the first date.

What have I left out.... oh... I would never pay for a piece of tail. Never. I would never pay for a female to go out with me. Even IF I did what you did and paid her $150 the first time she came by, I be damned if I paid it a second time. The $100 afterwards.... she is a "kept woman" and trust me.... other men are "kepting" her too.

Today.... people don't get M until at least 25, mostly 28-34. If you want a virgin or a woman who has only had one partner.... you best start dating them a lot younger. This is the society, we as humans, have allowed to take form. My mom's parents, he was 16, she was 13, Great Depression....M and she had my oldest aunt at 14. Whole different world. They never had much money but none of their five kids ever went shoeless or hungry. They had arguments but they loved each other for who they were, good points and shortcomings alike. He passed away first, when grandma was dying... I was a teen... I peeked in to check on her one afternoon. She had in her arms her fav pic of her and him.... crying, saying she was going to be with him soon. He had passed away 11 years ago. Yes I was a teen... but I knew right then... that is what I would want. In the end... it's pretty green paper manufactured by the government. You can't take it with you.... just as with the euphoria of cocaine and heroine. You have two immaculate highs.... the 1st time and the last time... right before you OD and pass on.

You find what you seek. If you want a female who will spread for bread, you will find it. If you want a healthy relationship, you will find it. Finding one is hard. Timing has a lot to do with it. I met a gal in late '96 that I could have seen as my "potential One" but she was not ready yet. After my break-up with last g/f from 2013-14, I met an older woman. She wanted to go all-in, right then. I was not ready. Timing..... sometimes I think it is as important as attractiveness. I could be wrong. 

BTW when you date, always keep in mind a great song by Styx..... The Grand Illusion


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## caliguy2349

Chuck71 said:


> 2nd date.... I go in fully expecting to cover all (guys always go in expecting to cover entire check.... ladies always go in prepared to pay your half if needed). By this time.... I do not get offended at all if the female does not offer to go dutch or she pay. I place more focus on would she offer to cover the tip. If she does not offer..... it is not a red flag at all but I begin to pull back on the money I place on the date. BTW.... this has happened once in my current year of dating and it never happened in the years before I met my now XW. By the 3rd and 4th date.... you know if there is anything there. If there is not and you feel "she is just going out with you for a free meal" then time to move on.
> 
> "Mostly" I pay for the 1st date. 50% of the time she pays tip (75% ask to, when I say I don't mind, 25% allow me to pay). 2nd date... 25% she pays (I offer, she says I pay, I want to), 25% go dutch (her request) and I cover tip, 25% I pay each, she covers tip each, 25% I pay for meal and tip. Yes I actually track this.... I'm a huge # cruncher. Get it from growing up loving baseball.
> 
> On all but one... the 25% I pay for meal and tip.... before the 2nd date is over.... she has planned a 3rd date where she covers all expenses or she is cooking at her place and I am invited. Who pays is a hot topic in the first few dates. If a female sees potential in a guy and a LTR, she will go above and beyond the call to let him know she is interested.


I have been married and am now divorced... 

I understand your formulas, but when I met my wife she made less money and NEVER wanted me to pay the entire bill.. Even the first date.. And she didn't do the "fake pretend want to pay".. She genuinely did not care at all about paying.. 

After being married she was pregnant quickly.. So she didn't work for 3 years... Still smooth sailing. Happy, not materialistic at all, etc . She then got a small part time job in a ritzy part of town and became a materialistic monster.. Designer names, needed expensive accessories, etc.. She then left me for a man who she thought makes more money. The next fool already spent a ton of money on this "poor girl who just wants love"

Now that marriage cost me a few hundred thousand, and I also paid attorneys, alimony, and now will pay child support for the next 14 years.. Also, while being married, sex dried up, she wanted a maid, nanny etc. (That I wouldn't agree to)

*A woman who is ready to marry obviously knows it is smarter to land the big paycheck and security by paying half on a few cheap dates..They aren't that stupid to come off looking like a gold digger when they want to marry a guy.. *

I think each woman is unique.. The best male players and female gold diggers can mask their intentions very well. 

As you stated, people marry later today.. Sometimes it is tough to gauge what someone will really be like.. Sure, one girl would never want to get paid for a date, and has no care for money as her mom and dad subsidize her life, education, bills etc.. Another girl you meet is a very hard worker, but then becomes burned out after years of stress. Another girl you find out later has 100k of school and credit card debt.. How will these women act once married?


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