# What a way to end Xmas



## seeyouinmagic (Dec 26, 2011)

Hey there - new here to this forum. Not sure exactly if this is the right section, but hey what the heck?

So tonight I just had a rather large argument with my fiance tonight after a great day visiting family and exchanging gifts. It seems most holidays something always sets her off. Let me say that most of the time our relationship is good from my perspective. Technically it's "still on," but after some yelling/reverse psychology on her part, she went to bed since she has work at 5am. 

My fiance can be rather temperamental, most times at the drop of a hat. Partially I think stemming from things I messed up along the way, that should be over & done with/case closed at this point (which I can get into if anyone is curious). It's just the way she is, I think mainly due to depression which she was diagnosed with at 14, though I think depression is a little vague to describe it - sometimes it seems more like bipolar or BPD. What set her off tonight was the fact that I accepted a friend request on facebook from an old musician acquaintance. I have not seen or talked to this guy in probably over a year, but for some reason, my fiance has beef with him, so I promptly deleted him and that still wasn't enough. Admittedly I don't consider myself friends with really anybody in the local music scene here anymore since most if not all are narcissistic, elitist and backstabbing/two-faced jerks. So why did I accept the friend request? Well I don't know exactly, I hadn't even said "hi" or anything and figured it wouldn't hurt, and this guy, as far as I knew, never did anything wrong to me or my fiance. I didn't know there would be an issue. According to her, he called her a "*****" or some other trash talk during the whole breakup of a previous band. The breakup resulted from my ex-guitarist being a selfish jerk to me at what became our final show and then my fiance got involved and it got really ugly. Basically instead of me vs. my ex-guitarist it turned into her vs. my ex-guitarist and she was now the victim, not me. There is no evidence of this slander from the acquaintance guy and I never saw or heard about it until tonight (2.5 years later). 

She then claimed the drummer of my old band slandered her as well. I'm pretty sure that didn't happen, since he was trying to be the mediator/peacemaker between myself and my fiance and my ex-guitarist. She claimed that I deleted him/blocked him off facebook and wasn't friends with him anymore after that event, but I don't have any recollection of me doing that since I'm still friends with him on facebook and she can see when I post things on his wall and failed to mention it bothered her until now. I'm confident that she's just trying to alter my recollection of the past so she gets her way when I know I'm remembering it correctly. Since my old band broke up, I've been open with the fact that I occasioanlly see/talk to him still, but apparently my recounting of the events is "wrong" and she's "gone tomorrow" I'm "lying about everything" if I don't cease all communication with him or anybody else that may or may not have said something about her. I've really tried to move on from all that drama, but it just won't die. How do I kill it? One final thing probably worth mentioning is that she threatened harm my ex-guitarist if she ever saw him again because of the things he said (which he did apologize to me later for, but not to her). Worth being concerned about or is this just a ploy to use violence to get her way?

So that's how my Christmas 2011 has ended. Any insight on the situation would be welcomed. I do appreciate more involved responses other than "dude she's crazy run." I do love this girl and I want a happy & stable relationship. The fix seems "easy" (just cut off contact with people or persons you were friends with for years because I said they talked trash about me and I expect you to believe me), but I don't buy it and feel like its her trying to control me in ways she should not.

Happy Holidays.


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## Lydia (Sep 4, 2011)

I feel that in yes, some ways it is a control issue. However, I think you need to evaluate how important these friends/acquaintances are to you vs. your fiance.

If these people are people you want to continue having contact with, then I would maturely bring the old feelings up to them. Perhaps your wife would feel better about them if they apologized to her for the things that happened, and vice versa. Maybe chat with her first and ask her what she feels is a good compromise, and then act accordingly.

If these people aren't that important to you then sadly I think the only way your relationship will be happy will be to cut ties with them permanently.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

You can have a happy relationship but I would never expect a stable one. 

It sounds like you are in for the long haul and if so get used to it until she gets things under control via counseling, meds and support from you. 

If you are going to stay the course then do not come back here griping in a year wondering what happened. Be patient and humble and accept the twists, turns and uncertainty that is ahead. I promise you that for the near future it is not going to get easier.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There are two possible things going on here....

1) You think that she is telling a twisted version of events. So basically you do not believe her. 

2) If she is twisting the truth to control you, it's a dangerous sign as she will do this all through you life to get rid of people around you. Do she do this sort of thing with other relationships you have? How many other people has she tried to get you to cut our of your life?

In either case it's bad news. This relationship is doomed either because you do not respect her or because she is controlling and trying to get rid of all your friends/family.


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## seeyouinmagic (Dec 26, 2011)

@Lydia:

The importance of these old friends/acquaintances isn't very great at all. I barely see them or have any contact at all. That's why it was easy for me to just delete the guy that the issue revolved around. My old drummer was a good friend, and I do run into him in person occasionally, which nobody has control over and as far as I know from what he's said he's never had a problem with my fiance, so I feel if I was to demand an apology from him he'd think I was nuts. I did however permanently cut ties with my old guitarist who did say some pretty bad stuff to my fiance and have no intent to renew any friendship with him. Thanks for the input.

@RClawson:
Thanks for the input. I am a loyal and committed guy, at least I think I am. I've made mistakes, yes, but I do my best to make things a smooth as possible. And then things like this happen, so I try to learn from mistakes. However, is it right to have to walk on eggshells the rest of my life? I don't think so. Somehow either now or in the future if things do get worse, I may try to bring up counseling. The downside to that is my fiance has expressed a heavy dislike/distrust of psychologists, since her parents had to go to several when she was 14-15 and she said none of it worked, not even medication. I don't know how much of that was her being a stubborn and moody teenager or what. 

@EleGirl:
Yes I do think there is some twisting/gaslighting?(not sure if thats the right term) going on. I forgot to include in the OP that the whole series of events started because her mother gave us some money to help out with our wedding. It was basically a check in her Christmas card to us. She told me about the check, but I didn't see the card on Xmas eve when she brought it home. We did our Xmas and it wound up I later found on our coffee table, buried under other stuff that she opened from me. She thought she left it in a big bag which had some presents in it, which she put up in our bedroom. Last night when she went looking for it in the bag, she started grilling me on where the check was and why I moved it out of the bag. I know that I didn't, since I hadn't even seen the card. I found it, but she didn't believe me that I never saw the card and she misplaced it. She doesn't like to admit being wrong I guess.

Thanks for the input guys.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

be glad your not married yet and move on to someone who is mentaly stable.


thats your x mas present this year the knowledge that this is what you will have to put up with if you marry her


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

A couple of things:

- do not let her force you into become a compliant mr.nice guy who gives in to keep the piece and make her happy. She'll end up getting her way, but she'll loose respect for you. And that will bite you hard down the road.

- could she be worried that these guys may have some dirt on her that they would spill to you via message on fb? Her reaction does seem a little strong.

- next, take a darn hard look at her behavior and ask yourself where the breaking point for you would be with it? If it became 25% of the time? 50% ? 75%? 

I'm asking because holidays == stress and if this is how she reacts then what will it be like if you have kids, or financial problems, or are buying a house etc.

Sure you love her, but are you up for dealing with her issues if they get mush worse?


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> A couple of things:
> 
> - do not let her force you into become a compliant mr.nice guy who gives in to keep the piece and make her happy. She'll end up getting her way, but she'll loose respect for you. And that will bite you hard down the road.
> 
> ...


:iagree: She is throwing a fit to get her way....then getting her way isn't enough. I know because I lived 16 yrs with a person like that. Mine realized how miserable she was making me and herself by acting this way and has changed considerably. Every holiday was hell. It wasn't a question of if she will get mad , it was when. You find yourself apologizing for stupid little things that you shouldn't. I'm not saying that your GF has it but we found out that mine was BPD. Good luck.


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## chattycathy (Aug 19, 2011)

Being engaged is a time to decide if the person is right for you to marry or not.

Meet......date........engage..........marry

Any juncture along the way, you can see deal breakers. Preferably before the part when you actually marry.

You can adore someone who has a dreadful flaw that messes up everything else. She sounds like she creates drama. Do you want drama? Maybe you do?


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## maggot brain (Nov 28, 2010)

Hard to judge after hearing only your side of the story. Some of your statements make me question if you're of the right mindset to set off on a serious undertaking like marriage. Writing off the entire community of musicians in your town as "narcissistic, elitist and backstabbing/two-faced jerks" suggests that you have some internal issues to deal with.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Magic, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm so sorry you're having such a painful time with your finance during the holidays.


seeyouinmagic said:


> I think mainly due to depression which she was diagnosed with at 14, though I think depression is a little vague to describe it - sometimes it seems more like bipolar or BPD.


Magic, the behaviors you describe are much closer to the traits of BPD than bipolar disorder. I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found several clear differences between the two disorders.

One difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. Such event-triggered mood changes are what you are describing when you say your fiance _"can be rather temperamental, most times at the drop of a hat...."_

A second difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. A third difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours).

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry. Although BPD itself cannot be medicated away, medication nonetheless is usually prescribed to treat the common side effects of BPD, such as depression and anxiety.

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. From what you've said, it sounds like your fiance may be perceiving at least one of your former band members -- the one she threatened with violence -- as Hitler incarnate.

A sixth difference is that, because BPDers have a great fear of abandonment, they are very controlling and will try to enhance their control over by isolating you from all friends and family members. This behavior is consistent with your complaint that your fiance is trying to isolate you from your friends.

A seventh difference is that -- unlike bipolar sufferers -- BPDers are always convinced that they are victims. It therefore is common for them to interpret events (even when the harm falls only on you) to imply that they are the victims. This behavior is consistent with you comment that "Instead of me vs. my ex-guitarist it turned into her vs. my ex-guitarist and she was now the victim, not me."

Finally, an eight difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.


> Is it right to have to walk on eggshells the rest of my life?


You will find the answer in the #1 best-selling BPD book, which is targeted to the nonBPD partners. It is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


> I've really tried to move on from all that drama, but it just won't die. How do I kill it?


If your fiance has strong BPD traits, you cannot kill the drama. Because a BPDer never learned how to control her emotions, she has become accustomed to experiencing a flood of intense feelings in her day to day existence. A BPDer therefore becomes bored easily when there is no drama to stimulate her. This is why BPDers generally are not interested in making compromises or finding solutions. Rather, they want to create drama.

Significantly, only a professional can determine whether your fiance's BPD traits are so severe as to meet the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot the red flags, i.e., strong occurrences of such traits. I therefore suggest that you read more about BPD to see if most of the nine traits sound familiar. An easy place to begin is my description of BPD traits in Maybe's thread about his controlling, abusive W at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it further with you. Moreover, if you really intend to marry this woman, I suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two _on your own_ -- for a professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. Take care, Magic.


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## seeyouinmagic (Dec 26, 2011)

All good comments and insights everybody thank you. 

@Uptown, your post was a real eye opener. I've done reading into BPD and Bipolar before, but there is usually a lot of jargon I have a hard time wrapping my brain around. I hope my S/O doesn't have BPD, but there have been red flags indicating that she does. We'll see what happens I guess. The biggest red flag is that she has latched on to the first real bad drama in our relationship revolving around a lie I told her about my past, which she found out the truth from an anonymous source and later confronted me about it. I have tried again and again to reconcile with her about and things get better after a day or two. Even if its declared dead and buried, in her mind it's still fair game get brought up from time to time. 

@Maggot, my way of dealing with people I've mentioned is to not deal with them for the most part if I don't have to. I used the phrase, "narcissistic, elitist and backstabbing/two-faced jerks" because that's the description I can come up with about what kind of people they are from personal observation and interacting with them. I'm a conflict avoider and usually can't see any good come out of getting into fights with people, though I'm confident there was at one point things being said about my fiance and I behind our backs, coming from people, while acquaintances were considered friendly. I'm not sure what other "internal issues" I would have regarding that other than I've mad poor choices of who I associate with in the past. The catch 22 is that many of these people apparently respect me due to my past contributions to the local music scene. I don't have any overt issues with them beyond how they treat themselves and others, nor do I try to cause problems, I simply choose to not associate with those personality types anymore, if I can help it. Make sense?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

seeyouinmagic said:


> I hope my S/O doesn't have BPD, but there have been red flags indicating that she does.


Magic, please keep in mind that BPD traits are basic human behaviors that arise from the primitive defense mechanisms we all use in childhood to protect our egos. Even in adulthood, everyone occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if we are emotionally healthy. The traits become a problem only when they are so strong that they undermine our ability to sustain LTRs. Significantly, that can happen well before the traits are so severe as to meet the diagnostic guidelines for "having the disorder." That is, a person meeting 70% or 80% of the diagnostic threshold may be almost as impossible to live with as a person meeting 100%. 

Hence, from the perspective of deciding whether she would be a good mate, the relevant threshold test is not _"whether she has the disorder" _but, rather, _"whether her BPD traits are so strong they are undermining your relationship." _If they are that strong, the primary problem will be her inability to trust you. Absent trust, there is no foundation on which to build a friendship, much less a marriage. And, absent trust, you will find that you never can trust her because, at any time, she may turn on you.


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## Laurae1967 (May 10, 2011)

You said you have "made mistakes" along the way. Were any of these "mistakes" cheating with other women? I'd like to know what the mistakes you have made are and when you made them. This would give some insight into things.

On the surface, it sounds like you have a controlling, slightly unstable girlfriend....but if you've done some destructive things in the relationship, there might be a reason why she's behaving this way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am not going to tell you to run. I AM gng to tell you that if you don't insist she give you a 100 percent pardon/forgiveness for any past sins BEORE you marry, she is going to be holding stuff over your head your whole life.



QUOTE=seeyouinmagic;527180]Hey there - new here to this forum. Not sure exactly if this is the right section, but hey what the heck?

So tonight I just had a rather large argument with my fiance tonight after a great day visiting family and exchanging gifts. It seems most holidays something always sets her off. Let me say that most of the time our relationship is good from my perspective. Technically it's "still on," but after some yelling/reverse psychology on her part, she went to bed since she has work at 5am. 

My fiance can be rather temperamental, most times at the drop of a hat. Partially I think stemming from things I messed up along the way, that should be over & done with/case closed at this point (which I can get into if anyone is curious). It's just the way she is, I think mainly due to depression which she was diagnosed with at 14, though I think depression is a little vague to describe it - sometimes it seems more like bipolar or BPD. What set her off tonight was the fact that I accepted a friend request on facebook from an old musician acquaintance. I have not seen or talked to this guy in probably over a year, but for some reason, my fiance has beef with him, so I promptly deleted him and that still wasn't enough. Admittedly I don't consider myself friends with really anybody in the local music scene here anymore since most if not all are narcissistic, elitist and backstabbing/two-faced jerks. So why did I accept the friend request? Well I don't know exactly, I hadn't even said "hi" or anything and figured it wouldn't hurt, and this guy, as far as I knew, never did anything wrong to me or my fiance. I didn't know there would be an issue. According to her, he called her a "*****" or some other trash talk during the whole breakup of a previous band. The breakup resulted from my ex-guitarist being a selfish jerk to me at what became our final show and then my fiance got involved and it got really ugly. Basically instead of me vs. my ex-guitarist it turned into her vs. my ex-guitarist and she was now the victim, not me. There is no evidence of this slander from the acquaintance guy and I never saw or heard about it until tonight (2.5 years later). 

She then claimed the drummer of my old band slandered her as well. I'm pretty sure that didn't happen, since he was trying to be the mediator/peacemaker between myself and my fiance and my ex-guitarist. She claimed that I deleted him/blocked him off facebook and wasn't friends with him anymore after that event, but I don't have any recollection of me doing that since I'm still friends with him on facebook and she can see when I post things on his wall and failed to mention it bothered her until now. I'm confident that she's just trying to alter my recollection of the past so she gets her way when I know I'm remembering it correctly. Since my old band broke up, I've been open with the fact that I occasioanlly see/talk to him still, but apparently my recounting of the events is "wrong" and she's "gone tomorrow" I'm "lying about everything" if I don't cease all communication with him or anybody else that may or may not have said something about her. I've really tried to move on from all that drama, but it just won't die. How do I kill it? One final thing probably worth mentioning is that she threatened harm my ex-guitarist if she ever saw him again because of the things he said (which he did apologize to me later for, but not to her). Worth being concerned about or is this just a ploy to use violence to get her way?

So that's how my Christmas 2011 has ended. Any insight on the situation would be welcomed. I do appreciate more involved responses other than "dude she's crazy run." I do love this girl and I want a happy & stable relationship. The fix seems "easy" (just cut off contact with people or persons you were friends with for years because I said they talked trash about me and I expect you to believe me), but I don't buy it and feel like its her trying to control me in ways she should not.

Happy Holidays.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeyouinmagic (Dec 26, 2011)

Laurae1967 said:


> You said you have "made mistakes" along the way. Were any of these "mistakes" cheating with other women? I'd like to know what the mistakes you have made are and when you made them. This would give some insight into things.
> 
> On the surface, it sounds like you have a controlling, slightly unstable girlfriend....but if you've done some destructive things in the relationship, there might be a reason why she's behaving this way.


I have not cheated on her and don't have any desire to do so, Laurae. There was a rumor going around that _she_ cheated on me however, which I found out about the day after my old band broke up. My ex-guitarist evidently heard about it a year prior, but claimed he did me a favor by not mentioning anything to me and not letting himself spread the rumor further, so if I heard about it it "didn't come from him." That sent my fiance over the edge and was pretty much hysterical denying the rumor. One would think that's indicative of someone getting their hand caught in the proverbial cookie jar, but there was so many things happening, so many emotions flying that I had to believe her. I even confronted the guy who was started the rumor to which he denied it happening as well. The rumor was basically right after my fiance and I started dating, she went to his house one night to hang out, got drunk and slept with him. The strange thing is, she was friends with him at this time and apparently liked her, and she did spend the night at his house one time. She was honest with me and told me that was the plan. This guy was getting in on a plane at midnight and she agreed to give him a ride to his parents house. I was okay with this because I had no reason not to trust her. I've moved on from that and gave her the benefit of the doubt for her side of the story. There was no evidence and the guy spreading the rumors said it was a rumor, actually started by his friend (though I doubt that, but I'm sure his friend helped) admitted to being jealous that my fiance and I got together in the first place. I aware that this guy has symptoms of depression/anxiety and probably other personality issues due to a rough childhood, so I chose my fiances word over the rumor that he started. 

The biggest mistake I would say was lying to her about a one night stand I had following the end my first long term relationship back in 2003. I was in a weak state of mind after being dumped after a stable 3+ year relationship and these kinds of things happen as I'm sure many are well aware. I didn't go off the deep end or anything, I was just looking for comfort. The situation turned weird, so I promptly left and tried to forget that it happened. Fate apparently decided to have the girl I had a one night stand with, later become friends with my fiance in 2005. The ONS girl, later started rumors about my fiance, evidently a guy was involved that they both liked, so their friendship ended. 

Fast forward to a few months into my relationship with my fiance in 2008 and she asks me how many people I've slept with etc out of curiosity. I divulged the information about my 2 prior long term relationships and even a girl I dated for a month in 9th grade that dumped me for a guy who was into Pokemon a little too much. I didn't however tell her about the ONS, because it was something I wanted to forget and didn't want her to think I slept around (which that was the only time that ever happened), I wore protection/was checked out clean etc. She asked me this the 1st time about a month in if there was anybody else that I didn't tell her about and I stupidly denied it. I didn't think it was important for her to know my entire history. She asked again about 4 months later and then threw out the ONS girls name, which was when I confessed my lie and apologized for wronging her. That was when she lost all trust in me. For a long time I worked to rebuild that trust. 

Somebody, who remains anonymous to this day told my fiance to "watch out for me" since I slept with so-and-so. I found out later that the ONS girl became a local scene groupie and dated a lot of musicians that I knew, so clearly someone from that crowd who told my fiance, maybe as a warning since the girl I slept with slept around, or that they wanted to inflict damage on my relationship out of jealousy. If it was the latter I'd say they succeeded. Who knows, I've learned to move on because it does not matter anymore. 

Since then my relationship with my fiance been going through the cycles of trusting/not trusting because she finds me in a white lie like if I told her I'd do something and forgot to do it, or if she had a question/some times sex related about an ex-girlfriend or something about my past that I didn't really want to talk about because its, well, in the past and I've moved on from it. Ever since the big lie I've done my best to be honest with her, but it's a never ending uphill battle. And don't get me wrong, she's lied to me too, about quitting smoking, about some guy she dated when she said she wasn't seeing anybody (which she still denies) - she's even denied being a liar after these things have come out. It's all very confusing and complicated, but because of that event, due to my immaturity/dishonesty at the time, our relationship went from smooth sailing honey-moon period to rocky road rumble strips.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

This entire thing sounds like a lot of juvenile drama. Both of you know that you were not virgins when you go together. You both told each other about most of your previous partners. That’s it. End of story. What happened before you met has to be left in the past.

The rest is just gossip and trouble making. Either the two of you ignore it all or you break up. If you don’t do either of those you will both be stuck with a high-school like relationship forever.


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