# Wives not feeling sexually "safe" enough to open up to their husband



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

A common thing I have heard is that women don't feel "safe" enough with their spouse to be open and truthful about their sexuality. It could be that the woman feels shamed for her thoughts and feelings (common) or that the man will be too offended by what he hears and pout or get angry... or a combination of the two.

For guys I work with, I will often ask them what they would do if their wife admitted that they had fantasies about being dominated by a strong man or multiple men at once (common fantasy). Would the husband be offended? Would he call her names and throw her out of the house? Would he pout because he knows that she is, in fact, saying, "I have fantasies about men that are the exact opposite of you"? Or would he use that information in a healthy and constructive way and learn more about what makes his wife tick and try to amplify those traits she wants to see in her fantasy lover? 

For those men that say, "Haha... yeah, right. Like my wife has fantasies. Right. Sure. She doesn't have a sexual bone in her body. Trust me." Are you sure about that? There's one thing I always say to men: Women are human beings. They are sexual creatures, just like you. While it may seem to take more to get their buttons pushed in the right combination, once those buttons are pushed... watch out. Their sexuality can run laps around a man's sexuality. Many of us have learned this when we catch our "low libido" spouses in an affair. After all, there is no stronger button-pusher than an affair partner. The newness and secretive nature of getting some on the side ignites a fire in a person that the comfortable and safe spouse cannot compete with.

The trick is to lay the groundwork for allowing you to push those buttons yourself. Part of that may be to set aside your butthurt feelings about what your wife's sexuality SHOULD be, and embrace what is. You may be surprised, and in the end, it may be a very VERY pleasant surprise.

Have any men here learned of a wife's secretive sexual kink or turn-on that surprised you? Did you react negatively? Women, do you feel safe enough to share your fantasies with your husband?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

In the context of marriage, think it is more often about control than feeling safe.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> In the context of marriage, think it is more often about control than feeling safe.


What do you mean by this? Do you think they don't want to feel out of control?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

NBD.

That's why they're called fantasies. 

A man should already know their wife's likely have a fantasy about being ravaged by a barbarian. 

And, being flown to Paris for a quick dinner and dancing at the Ritz followed by several days at Monaco, by a total gentleman then passionate love making on in Rio on a private beach, where money is no object. 

And being the total sexual focus by hot men slaves, where she can command all or one at a time, to bend to her will. To include women slaves as desired.

I could go on.

A H shouldn't be upset at all if she shares these typical fantasies. Now, if she knows and names several men you both already know and see regularly socially, that's a different issue 😊😊😊.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

That's the battle " if their wife admitted that they had fantasies about....(..........)." Something l would learn to enjoy but it's not going to happen. Tried and tried... I'm just tired of chasing my own tail.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Lila said:


> What do you mean by this? Do you think they don't want to feel out of control?


I think more often than not, some women (not all) control the type of sex they have with their husbands as a means of maintaining a certain control over the marital relationship. I don't buy this argument that the reason women won't share their kinks with their husbands because they don't "feel safe" with them is a cop-out. It is just an excuse most of the time. What it really is is that they don't want to lose what leverage they have within the relationship. 

If feeling "safe" were really the case, why do some women have affairs with sleazy, alpha-wolf scumbags, who often are far below their husbands in terms of wage-earning and stability? You're telling me they feel "safer" with these scrubs than they do their husbands? Doesn't make sense. It is the same reason they put out for every cute, clueless jock in college: because he was temporary toy to be used and cast away when no longer needed. But a wife _needs_ her husband, so the sex rules are different.

Women don't have anything to lose with men they are not committed to, so they feel free to fly their freak flag. A woman doesn't care if Jose the hunky poolboy doesn't respect her, because she's going to be tossing him aside as soon as she's through using him. But she has to maintain her husband's respect, so she needs to put restrictions on the type of sex she allows him to have with her, so that hubby doesn't think of her as loose or cheap and so lose his desire to stay married to her. Which in itself is a crock of sh!t reasoning. Most men want to do whatever they can, within reason, to sexually please their wives.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

We have had freaky sex, and there are times I spend days working on a new freak, and spring it on her.

I've built things, bought things, planned evenings and mornings, and never had anything turned down. We don't always repeat, some we do actually repeat, improve. 

This is one area that has posed limited issues. No relationship is perfect but being sexually open within our monogamous relationship hasn't been a fear by either of us.

My personal belief is that she likes me spending time thinking about her as I flesh out what's needed for new and improved encounters. As an engineer, I like to plan, build, execute, appreciate, revise as needed.

Sometimes I think it's a draw back having sex in the brain almost all the time but then I come to my senses.

One day old age will catch up to us, I want to leave no desired stone unturned while we can.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Let me propose the inverse of this situation. It is not as common but it does happen.

What about the women who for religious or other reasons actively suppress their sexuality and do not have fantasies per say? Then when their husbands ask about their fantasies and the wife says: "don't have any". But he husband as read online and thinks only women who don't feel say refuse to share their fantasies. So now the husband ask why don't you trust me? why don't you feel safe with me? Why won't you open up? 

The wife felt safe and opened up to her husband, but it has created an issue because there is an expectation that she is hiding something.


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## DoesItGetBetter? (Aug 16, 2019)

Good post! I'm 9.5 years into my marriage, but I have yet to discover my wife's kinks or fantasies. However, my wife is deeply religious and views such as sinful and wrong, so maybe that explains it. I would just like to know for enlightenment purposes, maybe incorporating some of her fantasy into a little bedroom banter and role playing. I have never shared my fantasies with her, because she would likely just shame me for them.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I think more often than not, some women (not all) control the type of sex they have with their husbands as a means of maintaining a certain control over the marital relationship. I don't buy this argument that the reason women won't share their kinks with their husbands because they don't "feel safe" with them is a cop-out. It is just an excuse most of the time. What it really is is that they don't want to lose what leverage they have within the relationship.
> 
> If feeling "safe" were really the case, why do some women have affairs with sleazy, alpha-wolf scumbags, who often are far below their husbands in terms of wage-earning and stability? You're telling me they feel "safer" with these scrubs than they do their husbands? Doesn't make sense. It is the same reason they put out for every cute, clueless jock in college: because he was temporary toy to be used and cast away when no longer needed. But a wife _needs_ her husband, so the sex rules are different.
> 
> Women don't have anything to lose with men they are not committed to, so they feel free to fly their freak flag. A woman doesn't care if Jose the hunky poolboy doesn't respect her, because she's going to be tossing him aside as soon as she's through using him. But she has to maintain her husband's respect, so she needs to put restrictions on the type of sex she allows him to have with her, so that hubby doesn't think of her as loose or cheap and so lose his desire to stay married to her. Which in itself is a crock of sh!t reasoning. Most men want to do whatever they can, within reason, to sexually please their wives.


You're misunderstanding the point of the word "safe" in my context. It's not that they feel safe and secure in a domestic sense, but with the "loser neck tattoo guy" at the bar who they had wild sex with... they feel ZERO judgement about anything related to their life. He doesn't shame her for not being with her kids, he doesn't shame her for not keeping the house clean, and he certainly doesn't shame her for wanting to be banged on the hood of his car in the Walmart parking lot. In a sense, he's the antithesis of "safe" in the way you're looking at it. But he is "safe" in the sense of he allows her to let her freak flag fly and there is ZERO fear of being judged or shamed for it.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

This site allows men and women to input their kinks. If you both share the same kink, you learn that. If only one does (or neither does), it’s silent:

https://www.weshouldtryit.com/


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

bandit.45 said:


> I think more often than not, some women (not all) control the type of sex they have with their husbands as a means of maintaining a certain control over the marital relationship. I don't buy this argument that the reason women won't share their kinks with their husbands because they don't "feel safe" with them is a cop-out. It is just an excuse most of the time. What it really is is that they don't want to lose what leverage they have within the relationship.
> 
> If feeling "safe" were really the case, why do some women have affairs with sleazy, alpha-wolf scumbags, who often are far below their husbands in terms of wage-earning and stability? You're telling me they feel "safer" with these scrubs than they do their husbands? Doesn't make sense. It is the same reason they put out for every cute, clueless jock in college: because he was temporary toy to be used and cast away when no longer needed. But a wife _needs_ her husband, so the sex rules are different.
> 
> Women don't have anything to lose with men they are not committed to, so they feel free to fly their freak flag. A woman doesn't care if Jose the hunky poolboy doesn't respect her, because she's going to be tossing him aside as soon as she's through using him. But she has to maintain her husband's respect, so she needs to put restrictions on the type of sex she allows him to have with her, so that hubby doesn't think of her as loose or cheap and so lose his desire to stay married to her. Which in itself is a crock of sh!t reasoning. Most men want to do whatever they can, within reason, to sexually please their wives.


And guys can be the same. 

At least when I was young and single; who among us, when sex is going to happen, if dating someone we can choose to never see again; see how much it what one could "make" her do?

Now, nothing against her will, unpleasant or obnoxiously, but if a woman goes down a path, just how far will she go?

If she was having a good time, just let her be as hot and bothered as she wants, in public and in private. 

I've been surprised at the things certain women have instigated once they knew I was on board and obviously non-judgmental but in awe of their hotness.

Give a woman confidence and there's no end to their imagination and actions regarding sexual activities. 

That's been my guiding principle since 12yrs old and a teenage girl / neighbor exploring her new sexuality stuck her hand down my pants more than a few times. She told her girlfriends and my "awakening" was off and running. 

My takeaway was women will show us what they want if we'll only pay attention.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

bandit.45 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > What do you mean by this? Do you think they don't want to feel out of control?
> ...


This


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

What about the flipside? Wives feeling ashamed and even reactive to their past? They're not at all unhappy with their husband but they don't want to be reminded of what went on before, a life that was fun based on desire more than practicality. They may have had to turn that part of their thinking off to accept the future. So when you bring something up like their fantasies, you're asking them to be thinking about their past life, prior to you, and they've spent a lot of time telling themselves that's not who they are anymore.

I'm not suggesting a generalization, that this is usually the case. Just that sometimes it is, and that it's not because your wife isn't in love with you. Not that I'm having a very tough time dealing with this myself... 

But in such a case as I'm presenting, the wife really doesn't want to dwell on things that remind her of that past. Which is why I think it is so important to make sure, going into a marriage, that you've really looked into this stuff first. Your LTR-to-be may have an agenda. To her, it's not an evil agenda. In fact, she doesn't at all understand why you, the husband, would be upset about her thinking she valued you for much more than just sex. 

So you can see why a wife might not be open, at all, to discussion about fantasies and truthfulness about sexuality in general. When you became husband material, her thinking changed. She thinks, for the better. And now you're questioning her about the stuff she intentionally left behind. To become a better person even. Think about that. 

Again, not a generalization. Just something that might be appropriate for some. Speaking of generalization, the woman who thinks as I described here, very likely is not here (on TAM) because she's not looking for a discussion of sexuality. Because again, that's her past, not her present. Being here would be in conflict with many years of her rationalization of who she was vs who she is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I think there are a lot of not very sexual people who still masturbate and have fantasies. This does not mean they want to live out those fantasies nor does it mean they even want to have partnered sex.

I don’t think chasing down what her “fantasies” are is the way to get a woman to be more sexual with you.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Casual Observer said:


> What about the flipside? Wives feeling ashamed and even reactive to their past? They're not at all unhappy with their husband but they don't want to be reminded of what went on before, a life that was fun based on desire more than practicality. They may have had to turn that part of their thinking off to accept the future. So when you bring something up like their fantasies, you're asking them to be thinking about their past life, prior to you, and they've spent a lot of time telling themselves that's not who they are anymore.
> 
> I'm not suggesting a generalization, that this is usually the case. Just that sometimes it is, and that it's not because your wife isn't in love with you. Not that I'm having a very tough time dealing with this myself...
> 
> ...



Well said. Yes, I've heard from women this very scenario. There have been several discussions on TAM about this, too. It's the Lover vs. Provider dynamic at play. No husband wants to hear that he's seen as the Provider and has zero Lover traits. For many men, asking his wife about her fantasies will bring about a response that can be summarized as "Ew...no. That's not for OUR world, sweetie."


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think there are a lot of not very sexual people who still masturbate and have fantasies. This does not mean they want to live out those fantasies nor does it mean they even want to have partnered sex.
> 
> I don’t think chasing down what her “fantasies” are is the way to get a woman to be more sexual with you.


A wife who masturbates and has sexual fantasies but has zero interest in sex with another human being is what we call "not the best wife material". Doesn't make them bad... just a whole other ball of wax that goes beyond this discussion.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

dadstartingover said:


> Casual Observer said:
> 
> 
> > What about the flipside? Wives feeling ashamed and even reactive to their past? They're not at all unhappy with their husband but they don't want to be reminded of what went on before, a life that was fun based on desire more than practicality. They may have had to turn that part of their thinking off to accept the future. So when you bring something up like their fantasies, you're asking them to be thinking about their past life, prior to you, and they've spent a lot of time telling themselves that's not who they are anymore.
> ...


You just explained most marriages


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> A wife who masturbates and has sexual fantasies but has zero interest in sex with another human being is what we call "not the best wife material". Doesn't make them bad... just a whole other ball of wax that goes beyond this discussion.


I would agree. But we still will have men staying with such a wife and trying for decades to figure out how to “make” her become more sexual.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Numb26 said:


> You just explained most marriages


Not for long, as was discussed in another thread. Times are a-changin'. Providers are finally wisening up. Marriage rates will continue to go down.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> dadstartingover said:
> 
> 
> > A wife who masturbates and has sexual fantasies but has zero interest in sex with another human being is what we call "not the best wife material". Doesn't make them bad... just a whole other ball of wax that goes beyond this discussion.
> ...


And wasting their lives. Meanwhile the wives are "exploring" elsewhere


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> Not for long, as was discussed in another thread. Times are a-changin'. Providers are finally wisening up. Marriage rates will continue to go down.


Well I was with ya until this.

If you think men are simply providers, there is no discussion as far as I’m concerned.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> dadstartingover said:
> 
> 
> > Not for long, as was discussed in another thread. Times are a-changin'. Providers are finally wisening up. Marriage rates will continue to go down.
> ...


I think he meant only the men who are being treated as nothing but providers. Not all marriages have the dynamic but you have to admit that has been the way is has been for decades.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> I think he meant only the men who are being treated as nothing but providers. Not all marriages have the dynamic but you have to admit that has been the way is has been for decades.


What I have seen for decades is that very young people notoriously make bad choices when they marry, and now people are realizing that getting married is not some kind of magical event that guarantees anyone happiness. So younger people are taking the results of what their parents did and seeing the problems, and choosing to marry later when they are more likely to make a more informed choice.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Well I was with ya until this.
> 
> If you think men are simply providers, there is no discussion as far as I’m concerned.


What? No... I'm saying that the scenario of the Provider man (the loveable but non-sexy guy whose main positive quality is that he brings home a hefty paycheck) marrying the first woman who says, "I want a marriage and kids" is slowly going away. It's the bad combination of women not wanting to look at men below their socioeconomic strata and men not wanting to play the Provider role that is killing the marriage rate. 

There are PLENTY of non-provider guys out there. They're the ones having all the awesome sex.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> What I have seen for decades is that very young people notoriously make bad choices when they marry, and now people are realizing that getting married is not some kind of magical event that guarantees anyone happiness. So younger people are taking the results of what their parents did and seeing the problems, and choosing to marry later when they are more likely to make a more informed choice.


I was very happy my boys waited until older to marry, when they and spouses were emotionally more mature and boys had careers.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> What? No... I'm saying that the scenario of the Provider man (the loveable but non-sexy guy whose main positive quality is that he brings home a hefty paycheck) marrying the first woman who says, "I want a marriage and kids" is slowly going away. It's the bad combination of women not wanting to look at men below their socioeconomic strata and men not wanting to play the Provider role that is killing the marriage rate.
> 
> There are PLENTY of non-provider guys out there. They're the ones having all the awesome sex.


Personally, I feel that if people have such a high value on marriage itself, then they should realize it is not a magical fairy that guarantees them anything. If they believe that, then they really don’t understand relationships or people. “Killing” the marriage rate is a good thing, IMO. More people are understanding that marriage is not something they should rush into in their early 20’s.

It seems as if some men are trying to make women afraid by touting all the new marriage stats. As if men still think a woman only values herself if she is married. Yet what is actually happening is that both men and women see less value in marriage.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> Well said. Yes, I've heard from women this very scenario. There have been several discussions on TAM about this, too. It's the Lover vs. Provider dynamic at play. No husband wants to hear that he's seen as the Provider and has zero Lover traits. *For many men, asking his wife about her fantasies will bring about a response that can be summarized as "Ew...no. That's not for OUR world, sweetie.*"


That's different; that's a wife who's not denying the past happened. The wife who says that's not "our" world is likely more open to expanding that world than the wife who denies that world ever existed, and wants to keep it that way. The wife saying it's not "our" world isn't in fear of exposing she had that past. It's not a conflict for her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> And wasting their lives. Meanwhile the wives are "exploring" elsewhere


Since cheating is done by men and women equally, why do you and other men only spout about women doing it? As if men are innocent.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Personally, I feel that if people have such a high value on marriage itself, then they should realize it is not a magical fairy that guarantees them anything. If they believe that, then they really don’t understand relationships or people. “Killing” the marriage rate is a good thing, IMO. More people are understanding that marriage is not something they should rush into in their early 20’s.
> 
> It seems as if some men are trying to make women afraid by touting all the new marriage stats. As if men still think a woman only values herself if she is married. Yet what is actually happening is that both men and women see less value in marriage.


I've often said that most people shouldn't be married, and most people shouldn't have kids. I think stripping away the social pressure to do both "just because that's what you do" is a good thing.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> I've often said that most people shouldn't be married, and most people shouldn't have kids. I think stripping away the social pressure to do both "just because that's what you do" is a good thing.


Right, so why do you and other men word it as if this is somehow supposed to be a threat to women?

Times have already changed. We don’t need marriage. Men need it more than we do.

I wish men could instead just be authentic and say “well I thought marriage was going to guarantee me sex, but I was wrong, so now I need to re-think what exactly I’m doing in my life that works and what doesn’t”.

The blame women for everything game is going nowhere. The constant “threats” as if no one will marry us one day do NOT make us want to have sex with you.

Partnering better is what makes people want to have sex with each other. Having more self awareness and maturity is how you partner better.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Personally, I feel that if people have such a high value on marriage itself, then they should realize it is not a magical fairy that guarantees them anything. If they believe that, then they really don’t understand relationships or people. “Killing” the marriage rate is a good thing, IMO. More people are understanding that marriage is not something they should rush into in their early 20’s.
> 
> It seems as if some men are trying to make women afraid by touting all the new marriage stats. As if men still think a woman only values herself if she is married. Yet what is actually happening is that both men and women see less value in marriage.


For me, getting married just seemed like part of the whole process of growing up. My parents provided a pretty decent role model for that. It seemed normal. In no way was getting married something I felt I rushed into (even though I married at 22?) nor did it feel like I had to. Closer, perhaps, to inevitable or fate, and whatever it was, I was going to make it work out. 

My wife sought out marriage as a way to escape from things. Her own past, her family. Her life. There's a hefty built-in burden for the person who marries that woman. And yet, even though you know some of it at the time, it still seems like the proper, even the heroic thing to do. Rescue someone. She was in need of rescuing, and was open about (most of) it. I was on a train track. Rails heading down the road in a specific direction. Intentionally designed to keep from veering off course. 

Why don't they talk about this stuff in the pre-marriage counseling???!!! Or maybe they do today? Does anybody get appropriate counseling prior to marriage? Or is it like how doctors treat you these days. They don't want to give you something hard to work on (like, if you don't lose 20 pounds and cut out the smoking, you're going to be dead long before your time) because you'll give them a bad review. Nobody wants to be the bad person who gets the bad reviews.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> For me, getting married just seemed like part of the whole process of growing up. My parents provided a pretty decent role model for that. It seemed normal. In no way was getting married something I felt I rushed into (even though I married at 22?) nor did it feel like I had to. Closer, perhaps, to inevitable or fate, and whatever it was, I was going to make it work out.
> 
> My wife sought out marriage as a way to escape from things. Her own past, her family. Her life. There's a hefty built-in burden for the person who marries that woman. And yet, even though you know some of it at the time, it still seems like the proper, even the heroic thing to do. Rescue someone. She was in need of rescuing, and was open about (most of) it. I was on a train track. Rails heading down the road in a specific direction. Intentionally designed to keep from veering off course.
> 
> Why don't they talk about this stuff in the pre-marriage counseling???!!! Or maybe they do today? Does anybody get appropriate counseling prior to marriage? Or is it like how doctors treat you these days. They don't want to give you something hard to work on (like, if you don't lose 20 pounds and cut out the smoking, you're going to be dead long before your time) because you'll give them a bad review. Nobody wants to be the bad person who gets the bad reviews.


Young people in love are notoriously bad at understanding what actual issues they will face, even if they are told. The only thing that helps is more time and experience and maturity.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Faithful Wife said:


> dadstartingover said:
> 
> 
> > I've often said that most people shouldn't be married, and most people shouldn't have kids. I think stripping away the social pressure to do both "just because that's what you do" is a good thing.
> ...


Thanks for the laugh, I really needed one today!


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, so why do you and other men word it as if this is somehow supposed to be a threat to women?


I think you are applying what you have read elsewhere to what I'm saying here. I think women should be open to their sexuality, go into relationships with men that they are genuinely attracted to, not feel pressured to marry, etc. Same applies to men.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Young people in love are notoriously bad at understanding what actual issues they will face, even if they are told. The only thing that helps is more time and experience and maturity.


It would help if "young people in love" could be given a short list, just a few things, that they might be facing down the road, and think about them. Tell them, these are the things people discover, one way or another. For people who marry young, they're going to discover these things about each other, and it's going to affect their relationship. 

People who marry older, who have been through many relationships, probably got to deal with the tough stuff prior, with others, before they got married. You need to carefully consider that your husband or wife's past may greatly influence your future, whether you care about that past or not. How do you know if your future SO is going to be a steady-as-she/he goes type, reactive to their pre-LTR past, or on a "growth" trajectory. What does each possibility look like? 

There's simply not enough data, in your early 20s, to know the answers.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> Not for long, as was discussed in another thread. Times are a-changin'. Providers are finally wisening up. Marriage rates will continue to go down.


Dad, this smacks of blame to women and victim hood to men.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> You're misunderstanding the point of the word "safe" in my context. It's not that they feel safe and secure in a domestic sense, but with the "loser neck tattoo guy" at the bar who they had wild sex with... they feel ZERO judgement about anything related to their life. *He doesn't shame her for not being with her kids, he doesn't shame her for not keeping the house clean, and he certainly doesn't shame her for wanting to be banged on the hood of his car in the Walmart parking lot.* In a sense, he's the antithesis of "safe" in the way you're looking at it. But he is "safe" in the sense of he allows her to let her freak flag fly and there is ZERO fear of being judged or shamed for it.


Setting the sex aside...

You're offering the extreme negative example. 

My answer to you is: why would a woman be married to, or choose to be with, a man who would shame her for such things as long as her reasons were legit? If this is the kind of husband she chooses, there are faaaaar deeper problems in the relationship than the sex. You come from the angle that such husbands are the norm and not the exception. I disagree with that. 

Most men I would proffer are not this kind of abusive husband. I would say that most husbands are decent, but suffer from abject cluelessness. These are the men who mean well and actually care for their wives needs and feelings, but may not have developed the skill of reading their wives' unspoken language and being sensitive to their needs. Now... all of us guys can improve on that stuff, and a lot of that is just on the job learning.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> There's simply not enough data, in your early 20s, to know the answers.


Which is why, after seeing their parents divorce, young people now aren’t getting married in their 20’s. They have learned from us even if we haven’t.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> What about the flipside? Wives feeling ashamed and even reactive to their past? They're not at all unhappy with their husband but they don't want to be reminded of what went on before, a life that was fun based on desire more than practicality. They may have had to turn that part of their thinking off to accept the future. So when you bring something up like their fantasies, you're asking them to be thinking about their past life, prior to you, and they've spent a lot of time telling themselves that's not who they are anymore.


What you are talking about is experiences, not fantasies. If you fantasized about something, then tried it out and hated it, then more often than not it is no longer a future fantasy or even anything you want to remember. 

A fantasy is usually about something you have never tried; or tried once and enjoyed it and want to experience again. Once you have already done it, it no longer becomes a fantasy.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> Which is why, after seeing their parents divorce, young people now aren’t getting married in their 20’s. They have learned from us even if we haven’t.


I always felt a bit odd, growing up with an Ozzy & Harriet type of family. Could never consider seeing something coming between my mom & dad. My wife's parents were more in the category of not imagining a divorce being possible and yet not being terribly happy either. I think my wife thus expected that marriage wasn't supposed to be a collaborative effort but rather that bickering and harshness and a false sense of privacy where the norm. I did put my foot down on much of that early one. Some things I simply wouldn't tolerate. I still ran into a sexual buzz-saw though. Looking back, I'm not sure what I could have done differently. Well, less patience would have been a good thing, since the crash in libido happened a good two years before we married. 

Perhaps young people should be told to be less patient with their potential LTR, not more. Whatever bugs you now, is going to be 1000x worse down the road. Look for those things. Pick at them if you can. Find the hot spots. Wow. Doesn't that sound awful??? That sounds like the sort of thing that might be part of intensive marriage counseling, with someone who really gets to know each person. Like that's going to happen.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> Dad, this smacks of blame to women and victim hood to men.


It is indeed possible for both sexes to wisen up about the mating game.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Casual Observer said:


> I always felt a bit odd, growing up with an Ozzy & Harriet type of family. Could never consider seeing something coming between my mom & dad. My wife's parents were more in the category of not imagining a divorce being possible and yet not being terribly happy either. I think my wife thus expected that marriage wasn't supposed to be a collaborative effort but rather that bickering and harshness and a false sense of privacy where the norm. I did put my foot down on much of that early one. Some things I simply wouldn't tolerate. I still ran into a sexual buzz-saw though. Looking back, I'm not sure what I could have done differently. Well, less patience would have been a good thing, since the crash in libido happened a good two years before we married.
> 
> Perhaps young people should be told to be less patient with their potential LTR, not more. Whatever bugs you now, is going to be 1000x worse down the road. Look for those things. Pick at them if you can. Find the hot spots. Wow. Doesn't that sound awful??? That sounds like the sort of thing that might be part of intensive marriage counseling, with someone who really gets to know each person. Like that's going to happen.


Like we tell each other in dating, move on quickly because you are seeing their best right now, not their worst.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> It is indeed possible for both sexes to wisen up about the mating game.


It’s not wise to put blame on anyone but ourselves for our own choices.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Like we tell each other in dating, move on quickly because you are seeing their best right now, not their worst.


I always took a different path to dating. I let the girls see my average to bad side right off. Figured why waste time trying to impress someone and then end it later.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

dadstartingover said:


> A common thing I have heard is that women don't feel "safe" enough with their spouse to be open and truthful about their sexuality. It could be that the woman feels shamed for her thoughts and feelings (common) or that the man will be too offended by what he hears and pout or get angry... or a combination of the two.
> 
> For guys I work with, I will often ask them what they would do if their wife admitted that they had fantasies about being dominated by a strong man or multiple men at once (common fantasy). Would the husband be offended? Would he call her names and throw her out of the house? Would he pout because he knows that she is, in fact, saying, "I have fantasies about men that are the exact opposite of you"? Or would he use that information in a healthy and constructive way and learn more about what makes his wife tick and try to amplify those traits she wants to see in her fantasy lover?
> 
> ...


I'm not offended. I also have no problem playing a role. The only thing I would say is when it comes to introducing other people as long as she is married to me then that is out of the question. I also don't want to know about her fantasies when it comes to "real" not counting movie stars and media figures. I get it we all have them but I don't want to know about those ones. I think you should be happy if your wife feels safe enough to tell you these things. 

Besides that any specifics will be kept between me and my wife.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

leftfield said:


> I always took a different path to dating. I let the girls see my average to bad side right off. Figured why waste time trying to impress someone and then end it later.


Just as long as you don't think it's recipricol. It's hard to get past the way we flavor our impressions based upon how we'd act in his or her shoes, and think their motives are the same.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> I think more often than not, some women (not all) control the type of sex they have with their husbands as a means of maintaining a certain control over the marital relationship. I don't buy this argument that the reason women won't share their kinks with their husbands because they don't "feel safe" with them is a cop-out. It is just an excuse most of the time. What it really is is that they don't want to lose what leverage they have within the relationship.
> 
> If feeling "safe" were really the case, why do some women have affairs with sleazy, alpha-wolf scumbags, who often are far below their husbands in terms of wage-earning and stability? You're telling me they feel "safer" with these scrubs than they do their husbands? Doesn't make sense. It is the same reason they put out for every cute, clueless jock in college: because he was temporary toy to be used and cast away when no longer needed. But a wife _needs_ her husband, so the sex rules are different.
> 
> Women don't have anything to lose with men they are not committed to, so they feel free to fly their freak flag. A woman doesn't care if Jose the hunky poolboy doesn't respect her, because she's going to be tossing him aside as soon as she's through using him. But she has to maintain her husband's respect, so she needs to put restrictions on the type of sex she allows him to have with her, so that hubby doesn't think of her as loose or cheap and so lose his desire to stay married to her. Which in itself is a crock of sh!t reasoning. Most men want to do whatever they can, within reason, to sexually please their wives.



This is one of those issues where our experiences color our perspective. @dadstartingover described "safe" the way I describe safe. 

"......_they *feel ZERO judgement* about anything related to their life. He doesn't shame her for not being with her kids, he doesn't shame her for not keeping the house clean, and he certainly doesn't shame her for wanting to be banged on the hood of his car in the Walmart parking lot. In a sense, he's the antithesis of "safe" in the way you're looking at it. But he is "safe" in the sense of he allows her to let her freak flag fly and there is ZERO fear of being judged or shamed for it._"

I am one of those people who need to feel "safe" to let my walls down enough to open up sexually. But you are right @bandit.45, when you have a marriage, a family, a life you've spent years (sometimes decades) building, the risk of possibly being thought of as "defective" and living in perpetual judgement is not worth the reward. 

This is not a female issue. Men do it as well. They do not share fantasies for fear of being thought of as a "freak" or a "porn addict" by their spouses.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

leftfield said:


> I always took a different path to dating. I let the girls see my average to bad side right off. Figured why waste time trying to impress someone and then end it later.


You can do that if you wish, but the other person will not be doing the same.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> What I have seen for decades is that very young people notoriously make bad choices when they marry, and now people are realizing that getting married is not some kind of magical event that guarantees anyone happiness. So younger people are taking the results of what their parents did and seeing the problems, and choosing to marry later when they are more likely to make a more informed choice.


True. Also, the older you get, the pickier you become. At some point, you might not consider marriage at all.

At 31, I thank God I haven't settled down yet as it feels like I'm still learning about my own self and the taste for men changes almost every year. 

I could see myself getting married at 40 for the convenience of not spending my life all alone...but then I could consider cohabitation which has "lighter" legal "side-effects". 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

*Re: Wives not feeling sexually &amp;quot;safe&amp;quot; enough to open up to their husband*



dadstartingover said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> Have any men here learned of a wife's secretive sexual kink or turn-on that surprised you? Did you react negatively? Women, do you feel safe enough to share your fantasies with your husband?


I don't know why some hidden, sexy fantasies about people (other than your SO) should even be discussed. 

I'm not married.. but I'm not sure if I'd really want my future H to talk about his sexual fantasies that include other women. 

Just like @sokillme said, not referring to celebrity-fantazies, but anything that involves a 3rd party into marriage/relationship (even if it's just a fantasy), turns me off and leaves me with a bad taste. 

I'm not saying I haven't shared fantasies with my ex-BFs, ....sure I have shared mines (for example...gang bang) and they have shared theirs...but everytime they expressed how much they'd want a 3some, it used to turn me off. 
Some had already tried it and said none of the females were their GF, some others had yet to try it.

Let me be honest though, even if I have shared mine, I still don't think it was a good idea. I did it because they wanted to know so badly....but I wouldn't share anything otherwise. So I HAD to ask what was theirs, as I said above. 
But I wasn't keen on knowing about that type of fantasy, nor revealing anything from mine.

Also, part of me, didn't want to sound like I was "sexually-dead" by saying I have no fantasy (which would also be untrue)...hence, the reason for sharing.
I've always told them that MFM is one of my fantasies, but then I think..... what decent BF would let his GF be f*cked by another dude??? 
So, I'd lose respect for a guy if he was willing to even fantasize about me being banged by another dude, let alone make it a reality. 

Sure, some fantasies are just that, fantasies. 

But still, I don't like to fantasize about sharing my SO. 

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> You can do that if you wish, but the other person will not be doing the same.


Only expectation I had for the other person was; they should try and enjoy whatever was planned.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

leftfield said:


> Only expectation I had for the other person was; they should try and enjoy whatever was planned.


I’m just pointing out that no matter what bad sides of yourself you felt you were revealing, the other person is not doing that and you will never see the worst in someone until you have been with them for several years.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m just pointing out that no matter what bad sides of yourself you felt you were revealing, the other person is not doing that and you will never see the worst in someone until you have been with them for several years.


I'm not even convinced that someone can show their "worst" side anyway. I think we have circuit-breakers built-in to prevent that. And even if we did, what we'd be showing is what *we* think is our worst, and we're not the best judge of our own worst thoughts and mannerisms. 

I think the best we can do (when meeting new people, whether potential SO or otherwise) is think about what might help to have a good time.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I think there is another flip side.

SOME women may not feel "safe" to share their fantasies because their husband isn't as sexual or sensual as their fantasy. So first of all, he'd be lacking the qualities she is dreaming of.....secondly, she doesnt want to make him feel bad. SOME husbands are like the wife referred to earlier.....maybe he'd respond with shock and laughter? If she even THINKS he might, then nope, not sharing. 

Or if she is trying to spice up the sexy time, because it isn't very sexy....and he is either not noticing, or pretending not to notice, then putting herself out there all vulnerable is a gigantic risk. Rejection WITH laughter just suck.

But there's more. It's not safe if he doesn't value wifey's thoughts and opinions....communication problems? Pretty common, I think. So she doesn't open up to him, because if he isn't going to listen to the "REAL" stuff, then why trust him with intimate extra stuff???

I think some of the explanations up there kind of ticked me off. Like our reasons .... for not sharing.... which is supposed to be voluntary.... are not really valid, and some seemed kind of sleezy. Like hiding things on purpose, or hiding important things out of spite or deviousness. Its FANTASY..... no one has to share if they don't want to. The reasons don't even matter.

*Edited to add: Ha, ticked me off....or hit a nerve?
**Edited to add more: Just noticed the title again. "sexually safe"? That explanation at least makes sense in that there's no shame in a one night stand. But for the wife to open up with her husband, I'd think she'd want to feel EMOTIONALLY safe. If he stomps on her emotions, or neglects her point of view.... then why would she want to share?


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

SunnyT said:


> I think there is another flip side.
> 
> SOME women may not feel "safe" to share their fantasies because their husband isn't as sexual or sensual as their fantasy. So first of all, he'd be lacking the qualities she is dreaming of.....secondly, she doesnt want to make him feel bad. SOME husbands are like the wife referred to earlier.....maybe he'd respond with shock and laughter? If she even THINKS he might, then nope, not sharing.
> 
> ...


All of the above is what I had in mind when I posted the question. A lot of men I talk to just do the cruddiest job of helping to cultivate a level of sexiness and fun that allows his wife to feel "safe" enough to be truly open and free with her thoughts. A LOT of men portray a very sensitive and "easily offended" persona that makes them not only look weak and prudish but also helps push down their wife's sexuality. _*"I can't tell him that... he'll get mad and pout and I hate that." *_

If my wife were to tell me that she has a fantasy of being ravaged by seven-foot-tall well-hung barbarians, I would probably just say something like, "Wow...Dirty giiiiiirl" and then take that energy into the bedroom. For her, if I told her I had a dream the other day of being back in college and having a fivesome with four 19 year old co-eds, she'd probably go buy a schoolgirl outfit or something similar. Both of our reactions says, "Oh, that's kinda sexy... and I'm in no way threatened by your thoughts. In fact, I like that about you and let me show you how much."

Shock and laughter, anger, rejection... all points to fundamental disconnect, lack of respect and incompatibility. You don't HAVE to be with that person.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

dadstartingover said:


> SunnyT said:
> 
> 
> > I think there is another flip side.
> ...


Or you could have brought up the subject, tried to get her to open up about her fantasies, told her yours, been told that "she could never do that", then find out later that she COULD do that but with someone else. Better to fulfill your fantasies when you are single and can enjoy them. Because the old saying happens to be true...."The best way to close a womans legs is to marry her"


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Numb26 said:


> Or you could have brought up the subject, tried to get her to open up about her fantasies, told her yours, been told that "she could never do that", then find out later that she COULD do that but with someone else. Better to fulfill your fantasies when you are single and can enjoy them. Because the old saying happens to be true...."The best way to close a womans legs is to marry her"


Yep, she could leave you. Cheat on you. Been there, done that. 

I think your statement is true for most people, unfortunately. Hasn't been the case for me... six years into marriage #2. If it goes down that route, I'll be fine as a single man again. I have no interest in a dead bedroom relationship.


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## CraigBesuden (Jun 20, 2019)

> Because the old saying happens to be true...."The best way to close a womans legs is to marry her"


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Short answer?

Too much thought. 

Just do it.

Especially if a long M, a couple has gone through the standard roller coasters in life ie kids, childbirth, buying homes, other ups and downs.

The emotional maturity of both spouses is able to handle sharing fantasies. 

Dear Lord, if one can't share that stuff with their SO there are likely other problems. 

Sharing a FANTASY isn't like doing it in all cases. But it can bring, with modifications, more sexual enjoyment time to time.

And sharing these can bring a couple closer.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> Have any men here learned of a wife's secretive sexual kink or turn-on that surprised you? Did you react negatively?


In my opinion some people just don't have sexual kinks or fantasies. This is especially problematic when the a spouse assumes the other is withholding information and does not feel safe enough to share assumed sexual kinks and turn-ons. 

Imagine a relationship that has very healthy sexual chemistry. Years later the wife is resentful towards her husband because he constantly breaks promises when it comes to making needed repairs around the house. The wife begins to harbor resentment and sex comes to a standstill in the marriage. Meanwhile the husband thinks, "perhaps she has this new super secret sex kink and is embarrassed to tell me about it." And this thought may be the result of him chasing novelty through porn which has skewed his own sexuality into needing "Japanese Puke Porn" for which he is the one that does not feel sexually safe enough to open up in the marriage about this new kink of his. He demands to know what his wife's secret kink is, and he just gets upset when she asks him for the love of god to just fix the leak in the roof.


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

dadstartingover said:


> Women, do you feel safe enough to share your fantasies with your husband?


Answer: No! 

Mental rationalization: "My husband never helps with the little things I ask, just forgets and sometimes even bully/ignore/go passive agressive on me when i complain, so why risk him thinking im a *****:
A) who did it in the past when i didnt (while in reality i only imagined it);
B) because i did it in the past and dont want to admit it;
if he wont put it to practice anyway?"

Ps: multiple partners is a porn fantasy or male fantasy, idk, but NOT a female fantasy. It just NEVER appears in conversations between women. Its a lie, just like the rape fantasy is a lie (women have forceful sex fantasy of her being iresistible TO THE MAN SHE IS INTERESTED ON, so he will snap, unable to resist her, and be all caveman. It can be and normally is or includes her own husband).


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

moon7 said:


> Ps: multiple partners is a porn fantasy or male fantasy, idk, but NOT a female fantasy. It just NEVER appears in conversations between women. Its a lie, just like the rape fantasy is a lie (women have forceful sex fantasy of her being iresistible TO THE MAN SHE IS INTERESTED ON, so he will snap, unable to resist her, and be all caveman. It can be and normally is or includes her own husband).


Women's sexual fantasies that feature themselves, with multiple male sexual partners are a real thing.

Of which my wife has told me that one of her sexual fantasies, is to be surrounded by many naked masturbating men, while she who is also naked directs them at her will.



> Nummi, P. & Pellikka, J. 2012: *Do female sex fantasies reflect adaptations for sperm competition?* — Ann. Zool. Fennici 49: 93–102.
> 
> Researchers have suggested that female strategies for sexual selection in humans include the promotion of sperm competition. Sperm competition entails the simulta-neous presence of fertile sperm from at least two males in the female's reproductive organ competing for the opportunity to fertilise the ovum. Certain behaviour patterns near ovulation may enable such competition. In this paper, we describe relative prefer-ences for female sexual fantasy types and explore the idea that these preferences may help us understand the settings and mechanisms that promote sperm competition, and discourage interfemale competition. To expand this exploration, we also examine whether preferences vary with respect to the menstrual cycle. *Our preliminary findings indicate notable preferences among females for multiple male-partner fantasies* over multiple female-partner fantasies or fantasies that include multiple male and female partners. This suggests that females find multipartner settings as arousing as males do, but the psychological mechanism relating to settings that include the presence of same sex competitors may differ from that of males. We also discovered some indications that the female preference for promoting sperm competition and avoiding interfemale competition is the highest and strongest near ovulation.


Rape fantasies for some women aren't a lie either.



> *Women's rape fantasies: an empirical evaluation of the major explanations.* Arch Sex Behav. 2012 Oct;41(5):1107-19. doi: 10.1007/s10508-012-9934-6. Epub 2012 Apr 28. Bivona JM1, Critelli JW, Clark MJ.
> 
> This study evaluated explanations of rape fantasy in a sample of female undergraduates (N = 355) using a sexual fantasy checklist which included eight types of rape fantasy, participants' detailed descriptions of a rape fantasy they have had, a rape fantasy scenario audio presentation, and measures of personality. Three explanations of rape fantasy were tested: openness to sexual experience, sexual desirability, and sexual blame avoidance. Women who were higher in erotophilia and self-esteem and who had more frequent consensual sexual fantasies and more frequent desirability fantasies, particularly of performing as a stripper, had more frequent rape fantasies. Women who were higher in erotophilia, openness to fantasy, desirability fantasies, and self-esteem reported greater sexual arousal to rape fantasies. Sexual blame avoidance theory was not supported; sexual desirability theory was moderately supported; openness to sexual experience theory received the strongest support.





> *Women's Sexual Fantasies - the Latest Scientific Research*
> Raj Persaud, M.D. and Peter Bruggen, M.D.
> 
> These results suggest that having fantasies about things we would never endorse or choose to do in reality, are not necessarily signs of psychological disturbance. In fact, according to this research, women who have rape fantasies also tend to have more positive attitudes toward sex, high self esteem, and more frequent consensual sexual fantasies.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its difficult to know averages, but lots of men and women have lots of fantasies. Of course "fantasy" can mean different things. It can mean something someone would *really* like to do, or it can be completely imaginary, with no actual desire to engage in that fantasy outside of ones own mine.

There are lots of different situations in marriage as well. Some times people (men or women) are not interested in sex because of their partners behavior, Other times it is just an innate low desire for sex. 




moon7 said:


> Answer: No!
> 
> Mental rationalization: "My husband never helps with the little things I ask, just forgets and sometimes even bully/ignore/go passive agressive on me when i complain, so why risk him thinking im a *****:
> A) who did it in the past when i didnt (while in reality i only imagined it);
> ...


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## moon7 (May 5, 2013)

Personal said:


> moon7 said:
> 
> 
> > Ps: multiple partners is a porn fantasy or male fantasy, idk, but NOT a female fantasy. It just NEVER appears in conversations between women. Its a lie, just like the rape fantasy is a lie (women have forceful sex fantasy of her being iresistible TO THE MAN SHE IS INTERESTED ON, so he will snap, unable to resist her, and be all caveman. It can be and normally is or includes her own husband).
> ...


I've read many of those studies back in the day when i was interestted in them and and in what people around me (in real life) say. And took them way more seriously before I learned that nowdays around a third of scientific studies lie in their conclusions to receive funding.

I'm explaining something that I feel and hear from other women when we start talking about those kind of subjects. And even though there are a lot of women who would love to be lusted by many men I never heard any wishing to have actual sex with said men of even being naked around many men. Maybe its a cultural thing from where you live??? Most women I know are too jealous and possessive to alow anyone more and 2 in a bedroom.

Same about rape fantasy. This one i explained is a regular know fact.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This may be the difference between "pure" fantasy and "practical" fantasy. 

In a pure fantasy sense, being kidnapped to be the sex slave of the Icelandic women's beach-volleyball team is great. Not something that would be fun in real life at all.

In comparison a fantasy of having sex with my wife while wearing masks, surrounded by candles, and role-playing being be part of some exotic religious cult ritual might actually be fun in real life. 

I think very few women actually want to be raped. Some may enjoy pretend rape games with a man that they trust. More may enjoy the fantasy of rape in their own minds but wouldn't want to roleplay it at al


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Yep having a fantasy and wanting to try it, are two very different things.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

moon7 said:


> Answer: No!
> 
> Mental rationalization: "My husband never helps with the little things I ask, just forgets and sometimes even bully/ignore/go passive agressive on me when i complain, so why risk him thinking im a *****:
> A) who did it in the past when i didnt (while in reality i only imagined it);
> ...


I don't pretend to speak for all men and their sexual fantasies/tastes (because it is extremely varied) and I can't comprehend how you could paint female fantasies with such a broad brush. This is actually an antiquated and sexist way of looking at human sexuality. This perpetuates the "women are pure and not like us heathen male sex fiends" myth that causes so many disconnects between men and women. 

Yes, it is not uncommon for women to fantasize about being with multiple men. In fact, when it comes to porn viewership, women tend to look up group sex, threesomes and "rough" sex much more so than men (source: A Billion Wicked Thoughts... great book).


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> In fact, when it comes to porn viewership, women tend to look up group sex, threesomes and "rough" sex much more so than men .



FFM or MMF?

(asking for a friend)


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@Rocky Mountain Yeti although the following article linked below from vice.com, doesn't quite answer your question nonetheless it may be of interest.



> *Science Proves What Women Want Out of an MMF Threesome*
> 
> "The majority of women interviewed highlighted that they gained sexual pleasure from watching two males interact sexually, describing this as 'quite hot', with one woman explaining that 'it was maybe more me that wanted to do it, and see [my partner] with another guy'."


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> dadstartingover said:
> 
> 
> > In fact, when it comes to porn viewership, women tend to look up group sex, threesomes and "rough" sex much more so than men .
> ...


Not really an answer to your question or about the average fantasies of women...

But if I have a 3some fantasy it is always about me and 2 guys, and would be MFM.

To have 2 guys who are just there to please me. Not to rape me, not to have sex with each other, but to have all of their attention and action directed at me.

Which I think is similar to most guys 3some fantasies, because I think men want to imagine being adored and doted on by both women.

They may also fantasize about the 2 women doing each other, but they imagine it as the women putting on a show for him. They don’t imagine it as if the 2 women will end up paying more attention to each other than they do to him, which is what actually ends up happening many times if the man tries this one in reality.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> Not really an answer to your question or about the average fantasies of women...
> 
> But if I have a 3some fantasy it is always about me and 2 guys, and would be MFM.
> 
> ...


That resonates. I see the appeal, and have an appreciation (fantasy wise only) of providing nothing but dedicated devotion and pleasure to a woman (who would appreciate it). I f a woman could handle the input of 2 simultaneously (I'm sure many could), I love the idea of that single-minded focus. 

What personal related above, where the woman likes the idea of seeing two men interact, is, well let's just say, that doesn't resonate with me personally. Nor would it my wife, with whom I can't do so much as a RuPaul impression without it creeping her out. She likes her men straight up (pun intended) manly and purely hetero.

Oh, and I think your assessment of the FFM is spot on as well.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

moon7 said:


> I've read many of those studies back in the day when i was interestted in them and and in what people around me (in real life) say. And took them way more seriously before I learned that nowdays around a third of scientific studies lie in their conclusions to receive funding.
> 
> I'm explaining something that I feel and hear from other women when we start talking about those kind of subjects. And even though there are a lot of women who would love to be lusted by many men I never heard any wishing to have actual sex with said men of even being naked around many men. Maybe its a cultural thing from where you live??? Most women I know are too jealous and possessive to alow anyone more and 2 in a bedroom.
> 
> Same about rape fantasy. This one i explained is a regular know fact.




Yep I find that stuff scary to read...Yet I have come this across as well...
These work for her as a fantasy but she claims she is fantasising about it because I want her to...
I have tried taking dirty talks in many directions but this is the one that consistently guarantees amazon-type of wetness. One day I want to find out what this is all about...But afraid to touch/open this particular box. I am not sure I will like what I find....



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

dadstartingover said:


> I don't pretend to speak for all men and their sexual fantasies/tastes (because it is extremely varied) and I can't comprehend how you could paint female fantasies with such a broad brush. This is actually an antiquated and sexist way of looking at human sexuality. This perpetuates the "women are pure and not like us heathen male sex fiends" myth that causes so many disconnects between men and women.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it is not uncommon for women to fantasize about being with multiple men. In fact, when it comes to porn viewership, women tend to look up group sex, threesomes and "rough" sex much more so than men (source: A Billion Wicked Thoughts... great book).




If women’s fantasies are supposed to be ‘pure’ then I am a freaking nun...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Not really an answer to your question or about the average fantasies of women...
> ...


For me, seeing 2 guys together can be super hot. But it has nothing to do with me, it’s just me being a voyeur into someone else’s fun. Same for 2 girls or a guy and a girl.

When it comes to fantasy that includes me, it’s always going to be all about me and being worshipped and adored. Of course since it’s fantasy, I don’t include how they feel or what they want. I don’t populate my fantasy creatures with any desires of their own, other than their desire for me. They are just my little fan club.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

My wife related that it took her about 12 years to get truly comfortable with me.

I wanted to scream "Then why did you marry me!!!"... but I knew any such rebuke would only destroy the progress we'd made. 

I also knew not to take it personally. First, she's of a very private, and exceedingly risk averse personality type to begin with. I also know that the one sexual relationship she had prior to me was an unmitigated disaster. Lastly, I know the string of broken hearts she left behind between that relationship and ours. Nevertheless, I did feel a bit defrauded, although I was aware that she was withholding (naturally though, rather than deliberately, hurtfully, or manipulatively). 

Sadly, she judges her own sexuality far more harshly than I ever would (actually I wouldn't at all). It's a tough nut to crack and, now that we've reached the double nickel, I have zero hope she's even capable of truly relaxing and she will take at least a good chunk of that closed-ness to her grave. 

I did once get her to share a fantasy with me, which was, by most standards, probably well on the mild side, but I know that was a huge thing for her to share. I gave her an interested and sympathetic ear, zero judgment, and heartfelt thanks for her for her willingness to share. But I also knew it was pretty much a one-time-good-deal; that that was her limit and there wouldn't be any more forthcoming. I told her I enjoyed the discussion very much but wouldn't pressure her for more, but am always there if she ever felt like sharing again. I know that ANYTHING that that even smells like pressure (to her, whether it is or not), also destroys her ability to feel safe. 

Sadly, any inclination toward something more wild (or youthful) than once a week missionary died with menopause. Door closed, windows shut, opportunity lost, and too late to start over. 

This unwillingness to open up and commit fully on the part of one partner hurts both partners. Sad.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> When it comes to fantasy that includes me, it’s always going to be all about me and being worshipped and adored. Of course since it’s fantasy, I don’t include how they feel or what they want. *I don’t populate my fantasy creatures with any desires of their own, other than their desire for me. They are just my little fan club.*


This makes me smile (in a good way). It is a fantasy after all, so why have any cares? And I don't even find it overly selfish. When is receiving, one should be completely open to receiving without worrying about the giver. When one is in the role of giver, one should be fully focused on the giving. It all lines up perfectly.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> A common thing I have heard is that women don't feel "safe" enough with their spouse to be open and truthful about their sexuality. It could be that the woman feels shamed for her thoughts and feelings (common) or that the man will be too offended by what he hears and pout or get angry... or a combination of the two.
> 
> For guys I work with, I will often ask them what they would do if their wife admitted that they had fantasies about being dominated by a strong man or multiple men at once (common fantasy). Would the husband be offended? Would he call her names and throw her out of the house? Would he pout because he knows that she is, in fact, saying, "I have fantasies about men that are the exact opposite of you"? Or would he use that information in a healthy and constructive way and learn more about what makes his wife tick and try to amplify those traits she wants to see in her fantasy lover?
> 
> ...


This ^^^^^^ 

And thank you. 

Because, yes, if my husband took the time and interest and courage to understand (without butthurt) what rocks my world sexually, we would/could be having those sex-filled weekends he "longs for" as he put it.

Instead, he spins a story in his head about how "she wouldn't like it if I did X"

I've written elsewhere about the present struggles we are having. It's a bit more complicated right now for us.

But your post caught my eye because you basically have said exactly what I think. Women are madly sexual - there's some unleashing that has to take place and it may have to do with societal expectations that are placed on women. What I mean by that is that double standard that kind of haunts all of us whether we like to admit it or not:

"Find a fairly inexperienced or virgin to marry. If a woman isn't this, then she's a ***** and while you'd want to get off with her on the side - you would never want to marry her. Now, once a virginic, low-experienced woman is married, she's supposed to set aside all that previous withholding mindset and screw you enthusiastically."


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My wife related that it took her about 12 years to get truly comfortable with me.
> 
> I wanted to scream "Then why did you marry me!!!"... but I knew any such rebuke would only destroy the progress we'd made.
> 
> ...


Dear God, really? 

Dude, I'm a 55+ woman and even I couldn't do once a week. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sure your wife is a beautiful person and I shouldn't ever plant a seed of doubt in another person. But I seriously couldn't do it. My pelvis throbs ever day to have sex and orgasms. Whatever men think menopause does - it doesn't do that to every woman AT ALL. I have two specialist doctors who take care of my woman needs to make sure that menopausal symptoms aren't something I have to succumb to.

As long as I can have sex, sex is life to me - not the only thing but seriously important. 

Another man on TAM talked recently about bringing his wife to O several times at a time and their ages are 75 and 77. 

I'm going to tell you what I've told my husband: if there is anything you aren't getting from me sexually or you ever just don't want me sexually and you want something or someone else - talk to me and let's make it happen for you out in the open where you can enjoy it and not feel shame about it. Life is freakin' short and people deserve happiness.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

happiness27 said:


> Dear God, really?
> 
> Dude, I'm a 55+ woman and even I couldn't do once a week. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sure your wife is a beautiful person and I shouldn't ever plant a seed of doubt in another person. But I seriously couldn't do it. My pelvis throbs ever day to have sex and orgasms. Whatever men think menopause does - it doesn't do that to every woman AT ALL. I have two specialist doctors who take care of my woman needs to make sure that menopausal symptoms aren't something I have to succumb to.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing! Sounds like you two have it figured out.

You mentioned doctors... I assume hormonal therapy? So many women are scared to death of going on hormones. I heartily recommend all peri and post-menopausal women at least research and ask their doc about it. It's not the "YOU WILL DIE OF CANCER" death sentence that most seem to think it is.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Dear God, really?
> 
> Dude, I'm a 55+ woman and even I couldn't do once a week. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sure your wife is a beautiful person and I shouldn't ever plant a seed of doubt in another person. But I seriously couldn't do it. My pelvis throbs ever day to have sex and orgasms. Whatever men think menopause does - it doesn't do that to every woman AT ALL. I have two specialist doctors who take care of my woman needs to make sure that menopausal symptoms aren't something I have to succumb to.
> 
> ...


And my wife doesn't believe women like you even exist. I think for her to acknowledge that would only make her feel even more inadequate, so it's easier for her to believe that highly sexual women are nothing more than urban myth or part of some conspiracy to sell sex books to women like her and men like me who are married to women like her.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This!

My wife also once expressed disbelief when I suggested that once a week or more was common in happy relationships. She thinks all the sex in movies and books is made up. 

As far as fantasies, she asked for one very minor one about 30 years ago - which I was happy to do to the best of my ability. She decided it wasn't as much fun as it sounded (which is often the case) and never asked for that or anything else again. 







Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And my wife doesn't believe women like you even exist. I think for her to acknowledge that would only make her feel even more inadequate, so it's easier for her to believe that highly sexual women are nothing more than urban myth or part of some conspiracy to sell sex books to women like her and men like me who are married to women like her.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Dear God, really?
> 
> Dude, I'm a 55+ woman and even I couldn't do once a week. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sure your wife is a beautiful person and I shouldn't ever plant a seed of doubt in another person. But I seriously couldn't do it. My pelvis throbs ever day to have sex and orgasms. Whatever men think menopause does - it doesn't do that to every woman AT ALL. I have two specialist doctors who take care of my woman needs to make sure that menopausal symptoms aren't something I have to succumb to.
> 
> ...


And this is my thought too. 

Life is short, let me count the ways and plan for more, different, wildly varying ways to have my wife. And I lucked out, she has no qualms telling me what she likes, dislikes. And we know each other very well, have a large toolbox of goto activities we like to do.

I'm 95% the aggressor, she's said long time ago that's what she likes. 

My ways to kick things off range from day long talk and prep to "hey, you awake?"

But, I am mostly considerate. Mostly.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And my wife doesn't believe women like you even exist. I think for her to acknowledge that would only make her feel even more inadequate, so it's easier for her to believe that highly sexual women are nothing more than urban myth or part of some conspiracy to sell sex books to women like her and men like me who are married to women like her.


I seem to be surrounded by women who have low libidos or even no libido. I end up feeling like a freak when I say that I feel the opposite way. I'm not going to say how often I like to have sex but it's WAY more than once a week. And some women (close friends and family) literally stare at me and express total shock that I like it at all never mind that I am willing as often as I am...notice they say "willing" while I say "want." It just does not compute to these women that at a woman in her 50's would still desire sex. I feel badly for them...but more so for their husbands. I know what it's like to be married to someone and still be totally alone. It's soul crushing. :crying:


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> I seem to be surrounded by women who have low libidos or even no libido. I end up feeling like a freak when I say that I feel the opposite way. I'm not going to say how often I like to have sex but it's WAY more than once a week. And some women (close friends and family) literally stare at me and express total shock that I like it at all never mind that I am willing as often as I am...notice they say "willing" while I say "want." It just does not compute to these women that at a woman in her 50's would still desire sex. I feel badly for them...but more so for their husbands. I know what it's like to be married to someone and still be totally alone. It's soul crushing. :crying:


I can tell you right now - I wouldn't be able to do that unless my husband was sick and couldn't help it. I left two marriages over lack of sex and dishonesty (I got an STD from my second husband who swore he hadn't had sex with anyone outside of our marriage). It was hangups and unnecessary possessiveness and unwillingness to deal with the issues rationally and adult wise. 

To give you an idea how far honesty and unselfishness can extend in a relationship, I know a guy from the swingers group, though, who got prostate cancer and turned to his wife and said, "No way are you going without - get out there and get what you need." Un-freakin'-believable. He would NOT take no for an answer. So, she did - she took a lover - all of everything above board and out in the open...all the deals brokered. He recovered, they got back in the swinging together and that's how that story unfolded.

One thing having interactions with swingers taught me is that there are actual people in this world who see sex differently than the b.s. the church taught us and the b.s. the television and movie ratings taught us and the b.s. that Ashl*y Mad*son taught us (live is short, have an affair). It IS possible to have good sex with good people who understand sex is a part of life and not bargaining chips or shame. I wish we could have hung in there longer to have found a compatible couple to swap with but hubs chickened out - ultimately, though he was fine with screwing other women, he didn't want some other guy screwing me. Whatever.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

notmyjamie said:


> I seem to be surrounded by women who have low libidos or even no libido. I end up feeling like a freak when I say that I feel the opposite way. I'm not going to say how often I like to have sex but it's WAY more than once a week. And some women (close friends and family) literally stare at me and express total shock that I like it at all never mind that I am willing as often as I am...notice they say "willing" while I say "want." It just does not compute to these women that at a woman in her 50's would still desire sex. I feel badly for them...but more so for their husbands. I know what it's like to be married to someone and still be totally alone. It's soul crushing. :crying:


The thing is these women can't comprehend correlating an absence of sex with feeling alone in the first place. They just don't see/feel the connection there. And God forbid their husbands express a sexual desire for them as that gets interpreted as he _only _wants her for sex. It's a big disconnect in a lot of marriages.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> This!
> 
> My wife also once expressed disbelief when I suggested that once a week or more was common in happy relationships. She thinks all the sex in movies and books is made up.
> 
> As far as fantasies, she asked for one very minor one about 30 years ago - which I was happy to do to the best of my ability. She decided it wasn't as much fun as it sounded (which is often the case) and never asked for that or anything else again.


Sure, there's a lot that is a whole lot better in fantasyland than in real life. The trick is to no have expectations that it will be as good in real life and just enjoy the exploration. It's that whole destination vs. the journey thing. Even if ends up being an epic fail, hopefully two can have fun together in the exploration. Even a major flop ban be an excellent bonding experience if approached with the right attitude.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Maybe I was unlucky but all the gfs I had in past (ok, not that many) and girls that I met that either appeared or pretended to be nymphomaniacs (I don’t like that term), there was always something else wrong with them, I couldn’t put my finger on it. I hate generalising but that was my experience 

I think it’s also hard to strike the right balance without the guy also getting insecurities: “is she attracted to me because of me or because of her heightened libido?”
I think a guy can tell the difference if he’s having sex with his wife or with his wife’s libido...(if that makes sense). But I think (and this is gonna sound cheesy) if you love each other and everything else is more or less healthy in the relationship, there are more dimensions to sex. I only know that kind of sex but from talking to friends, the casual type of sex seems kinda limited, no matter how kinky or skilful the partners are. I dunno.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DoesItGetBetter? said:


> Good post! I'm 9.5 years into my marriage, but I have yet to discover my wife's kinks or fantasies. However, my wife is deeply religious and views such as sinful and wrong, so maybe that explains it. I would just like to know for enlightenment purposes, maybe incorporating some of her fantasy into a little bedroom banter and role playing. I have never shared my fantasies with her, because she would likely just shame me for them.


I can get where she is coming from. I am a Christian and I can understand that some more extreme fantasies are not ones that I would want to encourage or give space in my brain to cultivate. People seem surprised that we can actually control what we think, and we can feed thoughts and fantasies or we can starve them. 
For example if I had a fantasy that I wanted sex with another man or men, I would not feed it because my husband is the only man I want to have sexual thoughts about. I don't want my mind and thoughts and desires to be concentrated on any one but him. Fortunately for me, I don't have those fantasies, he is the only man I am interested in. 

This time of 'anything goes' would say that whatever your fantasies/fetishes are its ok. Do what you like, be free, be empowered, don't let anyone restrict you sexually, have sex with lots of people etc etc.

AS they say where the mind goes the man follows, and that's true. Porn of course has meant that many want to do things now that are so skewed and wrong.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> For example if I had a fantasy that I wanted sex with another man or men, I would not feed it because my husband is the only man I *want* to have sexual thoughts about. I don't want my mind and thoughts and desires to be concentrated on any one but him. Fortunately for me, I don't have those fantasies, he is the only man I am interested in.


Interesting. You may be the first person that is able to control their thoughts successfully...Could you control my thoughts by chance? Because I don't like most of them (even non-sexual ones. Actually, it's mostly the non-sexual thoughts that I don't like).

Have you had thoughts you didn't like and you could successfully shut them down? How do you do that? :scratchhead:


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> Interesting. You may be the first person that is able to control their thoughts successfully...Could you control my thoughts by chance? Because I don't like most of them (even non-sexual ones. Actually, it's mostly the non-sexual thoughts that I don't like).
> 
> Have you had thoughts you didn't like and you could successfully shut them down? How do you do that? :scratchhead:


Here's a brief assignment in thought control - please use a stop watch to time how long it takes you to control away from this thought: Think of having sex with a 5 year old child.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Here's another one: think of poking yourself in the eye with a hot knife.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

We could go on but you get the idea. 

We all have the ability to control our thoughts. What's different is which thoughts do we, as individuals, find it preferable to control.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Diana7 brings up a valuable point - and that is that what we allow ourselves to be exposed to, is what we are putting into our brains. We do need to be careful - and I speak from experience that probably no young person will heed. I call it "Garbage in, garbage out." I have way too much garbage in my head I wish was not there.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Here's a brief assignment in thought control - please use a stop watch to time how long it takes you to control away from this thought: Think of having sex with a 5 year old child.


Gawdd! I asked to control my thoughts, meaning to make me stop thinking about horrible stuff, not put more horrible thoughts in! That's not a thought I could even begin to contemplate.
I thought the discussion was more about being able to control thoughts, that we have no control over...

Say IF @Diana7 had fantasies of being pleasured by a bunch of very polite and considerate Christian men (lets call them The 12 Cavaliers) , would she be able to stop those thoughts? It's easy to say that I can control the thoughts that I don't have! What about uncomfortable thoughts that people DO have?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> We could go on but you get the idea.
> 
> We all have the ability to control our thoughts. What's different is which thoughts do we, as individuals, find it preferable to control.


Have you never been on top of a tall building and suddenly having the overwhelming feeling of wanting to jump??? That's the kind of thing I am talking about! (Poking your eye with a knife....arrrgh! My brain! Stop!):circle:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Here's a brief assignment in thought control - please use a stop watch to time how long it takes you to control away from this thought: Think of having sex with a 5 year old child.


And btw, there are a lot of pedophiles out there. I have no idea what their brains are like or how they are wired but I do not believe they can 'control' their thoughts. A number of them can I am sure control their actions, but thoughts? They surely *know* it is wrong to have those thoughts yet they have them anyway...

My bad thoughts have mostly to do with mortality & health of people close to me, and some bad **** waiting to happen around the corner that I haven't thought of/being able to predict. No, I can't stop those.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

InMyPrime said:


> And btw, there are a lot of pedophiles out there. I have no idea what their brains are like or how they are wired but I do not believe they can 'control' their thoughts. A number of them can I am sure control their actions, but thoughts? They surely *know* it is wrong to have those thoughts yet they have them anyway...
> 
> My bad thoughts have mostly to do with mortality & health of people close to me, and some bad **** waiting to happen around the corner that I haven't thought of/being able to predict. No, I can't stop those.


Sorry to freak you out - but you get what I'm saying. You've obviously watched shows - or read or listened to news about pedophiles, right? 

Well, whether you are aware of it or not, your brain controls your thoughts on that front. It would never OCCUR to you to cross that line because your brain tells you, rightly so, to be horrified of that idea. 

You probably aren't going to purposely do harm to yourself either.

That doesn't mean those thoughts don't float through your minds - even swiftly - especially in this day and age of violent images we're exposed to via television, movies and the internet - or even books. 

I remember being a fan of Stephen King when I was younger and he was younger, etc., until I read an unabridged version of The Stand wherein there was a scene he wrote which I will not repeat here. I was so angry with him about that. Never in my life would I have imagined such an idea - and he put that idea in my head. I've seen or heard of that violent idea being used since then also. 

I was a newspaper journalist for two decades and - just like fire, police, LE, court systems and military - you get exposed to some truly horrid things that you can't get out of your head ever again. It's traumatic.

If you can avoid exposing your brain to information like that, it's better. In that sense, you can't control what goes through your thoughts. It's almost like your brain is an index you tap into every day and it asks you questions as you look around or consider the stimulus choices available.

There's a show that was produced you may have heard about many years ago called "What the Bleep?" - which explored how human existence possibly works...the physical and the spiritual and the spacial concepts of all these things. One of the things that was being postulated is the effects of video games on the brains of young people - the effects of electronics on people - the effects of any number of obsessions people choose. Can we control these things - or turn around the ones that are destructive to us?

I do think we can - people obviously change. But, like Diana7 said, probably one of the best things is to be very careful what you put in there in the first place. 

Stepping out into an imaginary world of wild and crazy ideas for sex in your thinking - what she is saying is that if you think something, that is the precursor to action. It often is. So, we do need to be careful what ideas we foster. That means different things to different people.

I'm too far gone for most stuff. I may have seen and experienced way to much to be redeemable. I do know some things bit me in the azz and I won't be repeating them. But, getting them out of my head or stopping them from going through my head? That part is too far gone. The best I can do is talk back to anything I don't want to linger.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

InMyPrime said:


> I think it’s also hard to strike the right balance without the guy also getting insecurities: “is she attracted to me because of me or because of her heightened libido?”
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Speaking only for myself, I can say that being with a good partner IS what heightens my libido. I guess it's lucky for me that my libido is so tied to my partner. I spent 6 years in a sexless marriage. My libido went way down. I thought of sex as an abstract thing at that time. Yeah, sure it would be nice to have some again but oh well. 

Now I'm dating someone I really like who really likes me. We enjoy our time together, we communicate very well. We have a million things in common. He's very handsome. Guess what has happened to my libido?? It's not that I'm thinking "I'd really love some sex right now" it's that I'm thinking "I'd really love to be with him right now" 

See the difference?


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

notmyjamie said:


> InMyPrime said:
> 
> 
> > I think it’s also hard to strike the right balance without the guy also getting insecurities: “is she attracted to me because of me or because of her heightened libido?”
> ...


Dating sex and married sex are two different things. My wife had a high libido BEFORE we were married.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> Dating sex and married sex are two different things. My wife had a high libido BEFORE we were married.


Probably true in many cases. In my case, my libido did not go away until I learned my husband was gay. Before that, I felt the same as I always had...I wanted him just as often unless something big in our lives interfered..ie. childbirth.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> I seem to be surrounded by women who have low libidos or even no libido. I end up feeling like a freak when I say that I feel the opposite way. I'm not going to say how often I like to have sex but it's WAY more than once a week. And some women (close friends and family) literally stare at me and express total shock that I like it at all never mind that I am willing as often as I am...notice they say "willing" while I say "want." It just does not compute to these women that at a woman in her 50's would still desire sex. I feel badly for them...but more so for their husbands. I know what it's like to be married to someone and still be totally alone. It's soul crushing. :crying:


Do the women in question have otherwise healthy and nurturing relationships with their husbands? Do you think their lack of sex drive is a reflection of the poor quality of their marriage, or lack of attraction to their spouse (have they let themselves go?), or are they just the sexual dead zones that every man fears?



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And my wife doesn't believe women like you even exist. I think for her to acknowledge that would only make her feel even more inadequate, so it's easier for her to believe that highly sexual women are nothing more than urban myth or part of some conspiracy to sell sex books to women like her and men like me who are married to women like her.


May I ask, how did that start? I would assume your relationship wasn't like that in the beginning, or you wouldn't have married her. Was there a catalyst that instigated the change in her sexual self? Or was it just NRE, and once it wore off, things changed?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BioFury said:


> Do the women in question have otherwise healthy and nurturing relationships with their husbands? Do you think their lack of sex drive is a reflection of the poor quality of their marriage, or lack of attraction to their spouse (have they let themselves go?), or are they just the sexual dead zones that every man fears?
> 
> 
> 
> May I ask, how did that start? I would assume your relationship wasn't like that in the beginning, or you wouldn't have married her. Was there a catalyst that instigated the change in her sexual self? Or was it just NRE, and once it wore off, things changed?


No, she was always pretty reserved and vanilla about sex. Very uncomfortable letting her hair down, sexually speaking. Frequency was somewhat higher, but never on the right side of the bell curve (except during ovulation). 

I'm confident her issues are a combination of an inherently private personality combined with some very sex-negative experiences in her youth and early adulthood. 

I married her, well because I loved her and didn't want to be without her, but also because I was very inexperienced... to the point of not even knowing yet what I wanted out of a sexual relationship myself, let alone being able to tell if a partner was willing and able to provide that. 

I bought into that whole "one partner for life" fairytale that I was raised with.... much to my own detriment in the long run.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> Interesting. You may be the first person that is able to control their thoughts successfully...Could you control my thoughts by chance? Because I don't like most of them (even non-sexual ones. Actually, it's mostly the non-sexual thoughts that I don't like).
> 
> Have you had thoughts you didn't like and you could successfully shut them down? How do you do that? :scratchhead:


We cant control what flashes into our minds, but we can control if we let the thoughts stay and then feed them. 

Best thing is to think of something else. So say I met a woman who was very discontent with her husband and was always complaining about him and thinking about his faults and failings. I would suggest that she instead thought of all the good and positive things about him and all the blessings that she has. Not easy as we do like to wallow in things, and let our minds go where they probably shouldn't, but its a good thing to do. 

No I am far from being the first person to do this, many do it. I do think that what we think about is very important, not just what we do, because one often follows the other.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

InMyPrime said:


> Gawdd! I asked to control my thoughts, meaning to make me stop thinking about horrible stuff, not put more horrible thoughts in! That's not a thought I could even begin to contemplate.
> I thought the discussion was more about being able to control thoughts, that we have no control over...
> 
> Say IF @Diana7 had fantasies of being pleasured by a bunch of very polite and considerate Christian men (lets call them The 12 Cavaliers) , would she be able to stop those thoughts? It's easy to say that I can control the thoughts that I don't have! What about uncomfortable thoughts that people DO have?


You dont need to control thoughts you don't have, only those you do have.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, she was always pretty reserved and vanilla about sex. Very uncomfortable letting her hair down, sexually speaking. Frequency was somewhat higher, but never on the right side of the bell curve (except during ovulation).
> 
> I'm confident her issues are a combination of an inherently private personality combined with some very sex-negative experiences in her youth and early adulthood.
> 
> ...


Was the quality of the sex you were having in the beginning, good? She just wasn't comfortable "cutting loose" so to speak? Or was getting her to be sexual low-key like pulling teeth, with a few exceptions (ovulation)? Was she comfortable talking about sex while you were dating?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BioFury said:


> Was the quality of the sex you were having in the beginning, good? She just wasn't comfortable "cutting loose" so to speak? Or was getting her to be sexual low-key like pulling teeth, with a few exceptions (ovulation)? Was she comfortable talking about sex while you were dating?


Whether or not it was "good" isn't really a valid question. It was certainly "good" to me_ at the time,_ as I was very inexperienced and, quite frankly, would have enjoyed anything we did together. It never crossed my mind to wonder if the same ol' same ol' was still going to be "good" five or ten years down the road. I did wan't to do more, but I had no idea how important that would become to me over the years. I figured either she would loosen up or I would just get over it. Neither happened.

No, she was never comfortable talking about sex. Still isn't. More than before, but still happiest keeping it fairly superficial, non-technical, and not too graphic, except in jokes.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think that men need to trust their wives with whatever they say and not think that they are hiding something all the time. Just because you have certain fetishes/fantasies doesn't mean that she has to have them as well or she is lying.

Also as someone has said, there are certain things in life that we just KNOW that we don't like and wont do, we don't need to 'try it once just to see'. 
I don't need to eat a sheep's eye ball to know that I will hate it and it will make me gag and feel sick.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

InMyPrime said:


> Maybe I was unlucky but all the gfs I had in past (ok, not that many) and girls that I met that either appeared or pretended to be nymphomaniacs (I don’t like that term), there was always something else wrong with them, I couldn’t put my finger on it. I hate generalising but that was my experience
> 
> I think it’s also hard to strike the right balance without the guy also getting insecurities: *“is she attracted to me because of me or because of her heightened libido?”*
> I think a guy can tell the difference if he’s having sex with his wife or with his wife’s libido...(if that makes sense). But I think (and this is gonna sound cheesy) if you love each other and everything else is more or less healthy in the relationship, there are more dimensions to sex. I only know that kind of sex but from talking to friends, the casual type of sex seems kinda limited, no matter how kinky or skilful the partners are. I dunno.
> ...


Someone shared that same thought with me several years ago, and he and W were doing fine, and my comment on this is the same;

Dude, you're overthinking it. 

And told him my position in my M; DW is having lots of sex because of who I am, and I'm hot and I'm a great lover. The facts bore that out, and still do. It's all because of me. I was when she met me, and have had 35 years of learning her body and mind.

And if it's not, that's not on me. Not for me to waste time worrying about. 

I'm 56, she's a year older. The facts still support me. 🥰🥰🥰


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I am often shamed by my wife because I desire sex more than once a week. So much so, that I begin to doubt my beliefs. Am I really the “abnormal” one? I even asked my much younger, female IC what is “normal frequency”. She is going to take an informal poll from the couples she councils. She did tell me she has a couple right now that are in IC where the wife does it 5x a week and the husband is looking for 7x. God I wish I had that problem...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Someone shared that same thought with me several years ago, and he and W were doing fine, and my comment on this is the same;
> 
> Dude, you're overthinking it.
> 
> ...


I recall the brief period where my wife's DO was including testosterone as part of her hormone therapy. She went crazy on me. I couldn't help think of the old question "Is that you or the wine talking?' Was she really into me or was it just the testosterone? It didn't take me long to arrive at the conclusion that the question was irrelevant. It doesn't matter so long as it's me she's doing it with. 

I have found that in almost every case, overthinking it has a net negative effect on sex. I'm naturally analytical by nature, so it took me a while to get that.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Whether or not it was "good" isn't really a valid question. It was certainly "good" to me_ at the time,_ as I was very inexperienced and, quite frankly, would have enjoyed anything we did together. It never crossed my mind to wonder if the same ol' same ol' was still going to be "good" five or ten years down the road. I did wan't to do more, but I had no idea how important that would become to me over the years. I figured either she would loosen up or I would just get over it. Neither happened.
> 
> No, she was never comfortable talking about sex. Still isn't. More than before, but still happiest keeping it fairly superficial, non-technical, and not too graphic, except in jokes.


Ok, perhaps I'm mistaken, but is that a trend? It seems to be ringing a bell that frequently, LD or refusal wives may have performed sexually in the past, but were always uncomfortable talking about sex. If so, perhaps her comfort level talking about it, is a more accurate reflection of her long-term disposition, rather than her sexual performance?



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I recall the brief period where my wife's DO was including testosterone as part of her hormone therapy. She went crazy on me. I couldn't help think of the old question "Is that you or the wine talking?' Was she really into me or was it just the testosterone? It didn't take me long to arrive at the conclusion that the question was irrelevant. It doesn't matter so long as it's me she's doing it with.
> 
> I have found that in almost every case, overthinking it has a net negative effect on sex. I'm naturally analytical by nature, so it took me a while to get that.


I assume you did everything you could for her to remain on the testosterone?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

BioFury said:


> Do the women in question have otherwise healthy and nurturing relationships with their husbands? Do you think their lack of sex drive is a reflection of the poor quality of their marriage, or lack of attraction to their spouse (have they let themselves go?), or are they just the sexual dead zones that every man fears?


I think it's all of those things. One woman confessed she never liked sex and only did it to snag him and have children. He recently asked for a divorce. One woman says everything was fine until she went through menopause. I told her she may need some hormone therapy and her response was "why?" as if it's really not a big deal that her sex life and that of her husband is over. This is a woman who was quite active in her youth. Others I don't know them well enough to know the problem. I just know that when I said I like sex they looked at me like I was insane. LOL

As I was typing this though, I started to question if I could come up with some friends that DO continue to have active, fulfilling sex lives and I'm happy to say I was able to name 5 or 6 women right off the bat.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

BioFury said:


> Ok, perhaps I'm mistaken, but is that a trend? It seems to be ringing a bell that frequently, LD or refusal wives may have performed sexually in the past, but were always uncomfortable talking about sex. If so, perhaps her comfort level talking about it, is a more accurate reflection of her long-term disposition, rather than her sexual performance?
> 
> 
> 
> I assume you did everything you could for her to remain on the testosterone?


It does seem to be a trend for some, but not necessarily for us. She was always rather reserved. 

I didn't push her to remain on the T. I'm not a doctor and the primary goal of the hormone therapy was to improve her health and overall energy level. If that meant more T upping her libido, that'd be a nice side effect, but if that's not the best thing for her overall health, then it's not the right answer. I love her first and foremost, not just her vagina.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> I think it's all of those things. One woman confessed she never liked sex and only did it to snag him and have children. He recently asked for a divorce. One woman says everything was fine until she went through menopause. I told her she may need some hormone therapy and her response was "why?" as if it's really not a big deal that her sex life and that of her husband is over. This is a woman who was quite active in her youth. Others I don't know them well enough to know the problem. I just know that when I said I like sex they looked at me like I was insane. LOL
> 
> As I was typing this though, I started to question if I could come up with some friends that DO continue to have active, fulfilling sex lives and I'm happy to say I was able to name 5 or 6 women right off the bat.


So do you think that if the husbands of the women in question had been attentive, and stayed in shape, they would have an active sex life? .. What about your mother? Did she like sex? Is it something you could have gotten from her, whether it be a positive sexual mindset, or a biological disposition toward sex?

Of the friends you have that have an active sex life, are their marriages also good? Or is the sex good, despite marital issues (suggesting a biological, rather than relational, cause)?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

BioFury said:


> So do you think that if the husbands of the women in question had been attentive, and stayed in shape, they would have an active sex life? ..
> 
> 
> None of the guys whose wives I was thinking of have "let themselves go" They are all aging appropriately and look just fine. I don't know how "attentive" they are to their wives but from the outside looking in, they appear to have normal marriages. But then again, people in my life were shocked to hear I'd left my husband. What goes on behind closed doors is often very different than what happens outside of those doors. My husband frequently grabbed my ass when we were with our friends. It private he never touched me.
> ...


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> None of the guys whose wives I was thinking of have "let themselves go" They are all aging appropriately and look just fine. I don't know how "attentive" they are to their wives but from the outside looking in, they appear to have normal marriages. But then again, people in my life were shocked to hear I'd left my husband. What goes on behind closed doors is often very different than what happens outside of those doors. My husband frequently grabbed my ass when we were with our friends. It private he never touched me.


True, we never really know.



notmyjamie said:


> OMG!!! You just made my head explode!!!!!! Ok, I never talked with my mother specifically about whether she liked sex or not. I do know that her attitude was that men need sex so if you want to keep your man happy, you'll be a good loving wife. She also talked about sex in general as a good thing, a normal part of life, and not something that should bring shame to a person's life. She displayed a healthy attitude about it without ever talking about her time with my father (thank God!!) But, after she left my Dad, she never dated anyone. Her marriage was so traumatic to her that she never got over it. She loved my Dad up until the day she died. But he was a raging alcoholic and she couldn't live with that anymore. She took great comfort at the end of her life that she'd see him again with all his earthly demons vanquished as he had passed away a number of years earlier. She told me she saw him the morning she died. "He came to tell me its okay to come to him now." The only thing she ever said about their sex life was "that was never a problem."


So it's unclear whether your mom was just being modest >, or whether she was merely dutiful and caring 0 Which leaves us with little indication on whether your sexual outlook is a product of your upbringing, and/or genetic predispositions. I'm sorry about her troubles with your father though :/



notmyjamie said:


> I think their marriages are good, at least they appear that way to the outside world. But again, you just never know. The ones who talk about their sex lives usually describe them as good. But I know some couples who have great marriages...they are each others best friend, very affectionate, loving, etc but they stopped having sex a long time ago. No idea why. It's a mystery to me. The only thing that makes me stop wanting my partner is if all the other parts of our relationship are suffering. I've also met a few women who say the only good part of their marriage is the sex.
> 
> I think the best you can do is keep communicating with your partner, spend time together, work hard not to take each other for granted, get some time away alone...without the kids, etc. That's your best bet for a healthy marriage and sex life together. But even that is not fool proof as we've seen here on TAM.


Are the ones who don't like sex, uncomfortable with the subject, or dislike discussing it? Do they skirt around it, try to to cut the conversation short, or go over-the-top in an attempt to compensate for their lack of warm or security with the topic? 

I guess what I'm asking, is have you noticed a trend among your friends? That those who dislike or don't care about sex have a markedly different approach to sexual discussions, while those of love it talk about it freely?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

BioFury said:


> So it's unclear whether your mom was just being modest >, or whether she was merely dutiful and caring 0 Which leaves us with little indication on whether your sexual outlook is a product of your upbringing, and/or genetic predispositions. I'm sorry about her troubles with your father though :/
> 
> Well, her mother HATED sex...with a passion...no pun intended (ok...maybe a little intended) She told both of her daughters that it was something to be endured...it's a wife's duty after all. She literally said "just close your eyes and bear it until it's over." When my aunt came home from her honeymoon and told my grandmother she had enjoyed it my grandmother almost passed out from shock. LOL So, no I don't think it's genetic.
> 
> ...


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> Well, her mother HATED sex...with a passion...no pun intended (ok...maybe a little intended) She told both of her daughters that it was something to be endured...it's a wife's duty after all. She literally said "just close your eyes and bear it until it's over." When my aunt came home from her honeymoon and told my grandmother she had enjoyed it my grandmother almost passed out from shock. LOL So, no I don't think it's genetic.
> 
> Some will talk about it but mostly in the "God...when will he stop wanting it" type of discussion. The asexual one never talks about it unless other people bring it up but even then she says very little. She'll find reasons to leave the room. And a few do talk about their past sex lives fondly but then will say "but I'm too old for that stuff now." It's sad.


Ha, my mother doesn't care for it either. Though she made a comment about "for all 30 seconds" once, which leads me to believe that she's just had nothing but bad partners. But your grandmother and aunt would prove that it wasn't upbringing, since presumably your grandmother would have consistently painted a negative picture of sex. Which just leaves genetics - just not genetics received from her mother (your grandmother). It makes one wonder, where do we get our sex drive/enjoyment genetics from?

So in your experience, would you say that an unwillingness to talk about sex, would be a relatively consistent indicator that someone is not (or not going to be) a good sexual partner? While people with healthy sexual appetites talk about it freely?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think its a mistake to consider human behavior and personality to just be neurons. Hormones and even drugs released by gut bacteria affect behavior and in a real way are part of someone's personality. 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I recall the brief period where my wife's DO was including testosterone as part of her hormone therapy. She went crazy on me. I couldn't help think of the old question "Is that you or the wine talking?' Was she really into me or was it just the testosterone? It didn't take me long to arrive at the conclusion that the question was irrelevant. It doesn't matter so long as it's me she's doing it with.
> 
> I have found that in almost every case, overthinking it has a net negative effect on sex. I'm naturally analytical by nature, so it took me a while to get that.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

BioFury said:


> Ha, my mother doesn't care for it either. Though she made a comment about "for all 30 seconds" once, which leads me to believe that she's just had nothing but bad partners. But your grandmother and aunt would prove that it wasn't upbringing, since presumably your grandmother would have consistently painted a negative picture of sex. Which just leaves genetics - just not genetics received from her mother (your grandmother). It makes one wonder, where do we get our sex drive/enjoyment genetics from?
> 
> That's a good question. Unfortunately for me, I've walked in on my daughter talking about sex with her friends enough to know that, like me, she likes sex a lot.
> 
> ...


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> That's a good question. Unfortunately for me, I've walked in on my daughter talking about sex with her friends enough to know that, like me, she likes sex a lot.
> 
> I would say that's probably a good indication that a woman might not have the best attitude or desire for sex. BUT, I do remember that although I do like it a lot, it took me a lot of years to get comfortable with myself and discussing it. The man I almost married wanted to talk about different things a lot and try different things a lot and while I was willing try a lot of the stuff he was interested in, I had a lot of trouble talking about it. And I definitely did not feel comfortable talking about what I needed from him. Now, fast forward to now and I can be quite open with my partner about sex and what I like, what I need, etc. Back then I have to admit I left the poor guy guessing.


If the party responsible for our sex drive/enjoyment isn't our mother, then that would still be consistent. I'm surprised studies haven't been done on this subject. Though I'd guess it'd likely be difficult to get entire extended families to agree to participate in a study on libido and sexual enjoyment.

Do you think you had trouble talking about it because of childhood experiences? Was it a uncomfortable subject in your house growing up?


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