# Wife co-sleeps with our 4 yr old



## salmonoid1

My wife has been sleeping in the guest room with our 4yr old for 1yr and 3wks. We do not have sex and haven't had what you would consider a sex life since he was born. She doesn't touch me at all, doesn't kiss me either. Sometimes I think that the only reason she married me was to have a child. I have asked her countless times to come back to our bed but she continues to sleep in the gueatroom with him. We remodeled his room with ninja turtles and all kinds of cool stuff. I thought that would be the end of it and we would have him stay in his own room since it's completion. This was not the case. She continues to stay in the guest room. She knows exactly how I feel about all of this as I have made myself VERY clear on several occasions. What should I do? Other than saying it, which I have already, how can I convince her that if it continues I will end up leaving to find someone who can fulfill my basic human need to feel loved and wanted? Should I just Leave?


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## I Don't Know

You're going to have to rattle her cage hard to get her to understand. Happened to me too. After several talks about the situation, I ended up leaving. In the end they either get it, don't get it, or don't care.

Make sure you actually tell her that this is a big enough problem that you are considering the future of your relationship with her. I don't know if you throw the words divorce or seperation out there, but make her know it's a BIG problem. Not just a "I'm gonna b!tch about this every few months" problem.


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## WorkingOnMe

You say that you make yourself clear, but I doubt that's true. It sounds like your actions have not matched your words. What have been the consequences that she has faced for her continuing behavior? More and more of your complaining? That's nothing. Is she a sahm? Tell her she needs to get a job. Do you do things around the house? Stop. Do you buy her things? stop.


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## Unique Username

So stop doing those things huh Working onMe?

How is your attitude any better than those that think that withholding sex is ok? 

Those are games, and dangerous ones.

It ISN'T about ramifications for her if she doesn't fvck him.

You guys have it all wrong. 
It ISN'T black and white and wrong or right.

There are things left out of the original post.

Anyway - this is why I normally stay out of this area of TAM.


If the goal is to simply get sex - then sure do what they say and get pity/duty fvcked and as little as possible.

Is that what you want? Or do you want to fix whatever problems and have a lasting happy marriage and relationship with a true partner for a spouse?


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## turnera

How would she describe your relationship?


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## Chris Taylor

"Honey, here's some options I'm willing to live with: (a) you come back to the bedroom and we resume a normal married relationship, (b) we go to marriage counseling to figure out how to solve this or (c) we get lawyers and start to divorce."

Divorce must be an option... are you going to live like this forever?


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## Fozzy

pendulum is swinging wildly on this thread already.

How's your relationship with her outside of the bedroom issue? Do you two ever connect with conversation, time away from child, etc?

Unique did have a valid point with examining the genesis of this problem. What was going on with you two a year ago when this started?


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## John Lee

Unique Username said:


> So stop doing those things huh Working onMe?
> 
> How is your attitude any better than those that think that withholding sex is ok?
> 
> Those are games, and dangerous ones.
> 
> It ISN'T about ramifications for her if she doesn't fvck him.
> 
> You guys have it all wrong.
> It ISN'T black and white and wrong or right.
> 
> There are things left out of the original post.
> 
> Anyway - this is why I normally stay out of this area of TAM.


I don't understand your posts in this thread. You seem to have come up with your own theory of how his marriage works, reading in all kinds of stuff about how he's this jerk constantly badgering her about sex, with no evidence of that whatsoever. What I do see is that she is sleeping with their four-year-old instead of with her husband. That's not really most people's idea of a healthy marriage. Most people feel that sex is part of a good marriage, as is sharing a bed with their spouse, and that has nothing to do with whether the husband is being a "jerk" and "demanding "sex.


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## ReformedHubby

Unique Username said:


> I think it is pretty Sh!tty that you end with "Or should I just leave?"
> 
> Why don't you go about this in a different way.
> Maybe she doesn't want to get pregnant again and is using this as a means of avoiding sex altogether with you.
> Are you CONSTANTLY nagging her about sex all the time and being a jerkface when she declines?
> What other issues came up for this to be the case?
> How about having some empathy and love for your spouse/mother of your child.
> You are coming off like you are selfish and really truly only interested in getting your rocks off not on fixing whatever problems exist. If that's the case - then hell yeah leave so she can find someone who can truly adore her and who can be a great role model for your son.
> 
> Also, the comment about his child having another man as a role model was uncalled for and really a low blow. OP, he will always be your son no matter what happens between you and your wife. Assuming she is decent person you will always have a place in his life. If things don't work out between you.


Ouch, what kind of advice is this? How is wanting intimacy with your wife being selfish. You filled in an awful lot of blanks for the OP. Is it really so hard to believe that sometimes children can place a husband on the back burner? It happens all the time. How is he supposed to adore her when she is indicating that closeness from him isn't something that she wants?

OP, there is nothing wrong with wanting intimacy with your wife. I certainly can't tell you rather to leave or stay. Everybody is different and has different tolerance levels for this sort of thing. If you don't think it will ever improve and its really important to you than you will have to leave.


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## WorkingOnMe

Unique Username said:


> So stop doing those things huh Working onMe?
> 
> How is your attitude any better than those that think that withholding sex is ok?
> 
> Those are games, and dangerous ones.
> 
> It ISN'T about ramifications for her if she doesn't fvck him.
> 
> You guys have it all wrong.
> It ISN'T black and white and wrong or right.
> 
> There are things left out of the original post.
> 
> Anyway - this is why I normally stay out of this area of TAM.
> 
> 
> If the goal is to simply get sex - then sure do what they say and get pity/duty fvcked and as little as possible.
> 
> Is that what you want? Or do you want to fix whatever problems and have a lasting happy marriage and relationship with a true partner for a spouse?


Her actions are showing that she wants the benefits of being married, but without any of the responsibilities. For that there must be consequences for her to learn what it means to be a wife in a relationship. Sorry, it's not all about being a mommy. But she won't learn these things if she doesn't get some push back. There are many many nice guys on this board who act like the OP and get the exact same treatment. It's cause and effect. She's acting exactly the way one would expect her to given the way he acts.


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## Unique Username

I have every right to read between the lines and get my own feeling about the thread and poster.

If it strikes a nerve - then it is possibly more true than one might want to admit.

Anyway - kid is 4 - this has been going on for 1 year and 3 weeks.

Something changed. What? Why?


Sometimes people label a spouse as LD - and think that giving ultimatums is the way to fix the problem. 
When in reality the sup[posed LD spouse may have have lost respect for them, have some mental or physical issue etc.
In this case it has something to do with the child. So I asked was the child ill? What happened to make her sleep in the Guest Room with the kid?
Kid has a lovely new remodeled room - why was she not sleeping in there with him if he were sick or something originally?

I have zero personal stake in any of this.
But I was trying to get to the REAL problem to be able to offer SOUND advice on how to fix it LONG TERM.


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## COGypsy

I'm not sure that the lack of sex and affection is any worse than the fact that a grown woman is sharing a bed with a child. That sounds like a bigger concern to me.


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## ReformedHubby

Unique Username said:


> So stop doing those things huh Working onMe?
> 
> How is your attitude any better than those that think that withholding sex is ok?
> 
> Those are games, and dangerous ones.
> 
> It ISN'T about ramifications for her if she doesn't fvck him.
> 
> You guys have it all wrong.
> It ISN'T black and white and wrong or right.
> 
> *There are things left out of the original post.*
> 
> Anyway - this is why I normally stay out of this area of TAM.
> 
> 
> If the goal is to simply get sex - then sure do what they say and get pity/duty fvcked and as little as possible.
> 
> Is that what you want? Or do you want to fix whatever problems and have a lasting happy marriage and relationship with a true partner for a spouse?


It is a brief post, but why not let the OP fill in whats left out? How would you feel if you came on here for advice for the first time and the first reply you received basically ripped your head off. There have been posts on TAM that deserved this treatment, but this reads like he is hurting and in distress.


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## Unique Username

If he is ready to just walk away - then my statement about her finding someone to adore her is accurate

Thinking about losing them may make him want to dig deeper and actually address whatever the REAL issue is.


There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting intimacy from their loved one. Nothing wrong with wanting to have their loved one sleep in the same bed.
I didn't say there was a problem with that.

I merely felt that the attitude that came off (to me) in the original post was demanding and jerkish. If I felt it from just reading it - then what must she feel?

I hope, if he really wants to fix things - for the long haul - that he gets to the root of the matter. Address those things and intimacy and sex will work itself out.


ETA: PLUS I offered another way to go about fixing the immediate issue of her getting back to her own marital bed.....it isn't good for a child to be sleeping with his Mom. (Unless the child is very ill and she is caregiving or some other issue) Perhaps addressing the problem with how it could be adversely affecting his son...a different way of of getting her back to her own bed...a different way from ultimatums and demanding that she come back and have sex.
There are ALWAYS more ways than one to reach a goal.


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## Unique Username

I didn't basically rip anyone's head off.


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## Tall Average Guy

Unique Username said:


> If he is ready to just walk away - then my statement about her finding someone to adore her is accurate
> Thinking about losing them may make him want to dig deeper and actually address whatever the REAL issue is.


How? He says he has addressed it be she continues. Why is her refusal to address the issue fine and dandy while his demonstrates selfishness?



> There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting intimacy from their loved one. Nothing wrong with wanting to have their loved one sleep in the same bed.
> I didn't say there was a problem with that.


Actually, you did. In your own words, he is a selfish jerk because he wants sex from her. 



> I merely felt that the attitude that came off (to me) in the original post was demanding and jerkish. If I felt it from just reading it - then what must she feel?


His post was directed toward sex. He notes they have not had sex in over a year, and barely any since his child was born. So is wanting sex selfish and jerkish?



> I hope, if he really wants to fix things - for the long haul - that he gets to the root of the matter. Address those things and intimacy and sex will work itself out.


All good ideas. But why they vitriol directed toward him? You call him any number of names based on your interpretation of what you believe is missing from his post. You don't ask questions - you assume you know him and his wife. He is the bad guy and his wife is the victim. I have no idea what is actually happening, but you don't either. And rather than actually ask some questions to see if you are correct, you go straight on the attack. I don't see that as all that helpful.


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## Tall Average Guy

salmonoid1 said:


> My wife has been sleeping in the guest room with our 4yr old for 1yr and 3wks. We do not have sex and haven't had what you would consider a sex life since he was born. She doesn't touch me at all, doesn't kiss me either. Sometimes I think that the only reason she married me was to have a child. I have asked her countless times to come back to our bed but she continues to sleep in the gueatroom with him. We remodeled his room with ninja turtles and all kinds of cool stuff. I thought that would be the end of it and we would have him stay in his own room since it's completion. This was not the case. She continues to stay in the guest room. She knows exactly how I feel about all of this as I have made myself VERY clear on several occasions. What should I do? Other than saying it, which I have already, how can I convince her that if it continues I will end up leaving to find someone who can fulfill my basic human need to feel loved and wanted? Should I just Leave?


We need a lot more detail.

How was your sex life before you child?
What caused her to move into her child's bed? Is that cause still around?
Does she work outside the home? Do you?
Any large issues or events during your marriage? Infidelity, loss of a job, loss of a loved one, etc.?
How do you two handle disagreements apart from sex? How do you two get along otherwise? How are chores divided up?
What childcare are you involved in?


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## ReformedHubby

Unique Username said:


> If he is ready to just walk away - then my statement about her finding someone to adore her is accurate
> 
> *Thinking about losing them may make him want to dig deeper and actually address whatever the REAL issue is.*
> 
> 
> There is nothing wrong with anyone wanting intimacy from their loved one. Nothing wrong with wanting to have their loved one sleep in the same bed.
> I didn't say there was a problem with that.
> 
> I merely felt that the attitude that came off (to me) in the original post was demanding and jerkish. If I felt it from just reading it - then what must she feel?
> 
> I hope, if he really wants to fix things - for the long haul - that he gets to the root of the matter. Address those things and intimacy and sex will work itself out.


He obviously came on here for advice because the thought of losing them and leaving isn't an easy one. Yet you commented about how another man would end up raising his son? How is any of that helpful or even appropriate. It came across as hateful, and I doubt I'm the only one that reads it that way. 

Couldn't you have been a little more sensitive about how you approached the OP. You could have just asked him what types of things he has tried to bring them closer together, instead of making assumptions and interrogating him. 

OP, please stick around. There are people that will offer you all types of advice here. It will be up to you to sift through all of it and decide what if any of it is applicable to your relationship. Best of luck to you.


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## Tall Average Guy

Unique Username said:


> I didn't basically rip anyone's head off.


Calling someone a selfish jerk is not typically considered a term of endearment, but perhaps it is in your area.


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## John Lee

Unique Username said:


> I think it is pretty Sh!tty that you end with "Or should I just leave?"
> 
> Why don't you go about this in a different way.
> Maybe she doesn't want to get pregnant again and is using this as a means of avoiding sex altogether with you.
> Are you CONSTANTLY nagging her about sex all the time and being a jerkface when she declines?
> What other issues came up for this to be the case?
> How about having some empathy and love for your spouse/mother of your child.
> You are coming off like you are selfish and really truly only interested in getting your rocks off not on fixing whatever problems exist. If that's the case - then hell yeah leave so she can find someone who can truly adore her and who can be a great role model for your son.
> 
> 
> My suggestion would be to enlist the help of a trusted family member or close friend to watch the child so that you two can have an adult discussion about your marriage and the expectations of it by each of you.
> 
> Has the child been ill? Is that how it started? When did this begin. You said 1 year and 3 weeks and he is 4 years old
> so what happened 1 year and three weeks ago to make this change happen?
> THAT is the issue you left out and the one which needs to be addressed.
> 
> 
> As for the OTHER way to go about this - it isn't good for the child to be that dependent upon a parent for sleeping. They need their own space and to be able to put themselves calmly to bed. Now that she has co-slept with him for a year...it is going to take some extra work to get him OUT of the habit of it and it probably won't be easy and will be mentally painful for them both.
> 
> Your post comes off to me that you are angry that she won't have sex with you. And sounds like you badger her all the time about it. That is certainly counter-productive.
> 
> So - let's get real and why don't you be honest with yourself and us about what led up to this drastic change 1 year and 3 weeks ago.
> 
> There are a lot of people here who could offer ways to help fix your issues.
> 
> I think it would be better, though, if you move this to the parenting forum.


I just want to add that I find your tone hostile and way out of line. You sound like you are jumping to conclusions, taking sides, and insulting him to boot, rather than offering advice. Other people in the thread seem to feel the same way, but please continue to convince yourself that we're all hallucinating.


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## Unique Username

No where did I call him a jerk.

I am not hallucinating.

I have every right to my own opinion and actually offered some advice as how to go about getting what he wants in a different way.
I asked pertinent questions. 

I don't see anything hostile in my original post.
I saw questions. I saw honest thought (from a woman's perspective) of how his wife may feel.

You all have attacked me. And that is just fine and dandy. If it makes you feel better to get your aggression and anger out at me then have at it.
It seems to me that you all are dumping a lot of crap on me - perhaps resentment from your previous or current spouses. And jumping to a great deal of conclusions yourselves.



I stand by my advice and my suggestions.


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## VermisciousKnid

Salmonoid1,

Can you fill us in on what your marriage was like prior to one year ago and prior to the birth of your child? It'll make a big difference in the quality of advice that you get. 

In my personal experience, some women go into complete mommy mode once they have children. Their priorities get reshuffled and they start 'mothering' to the point of physical and mental exhaustion. 

That isn't necessarily an intentional rejection of you, though it is effectively one. Or it could be that she wasn't happy with your marriage and us using your child as an excuse. That's not productive. 

Give us some more background.


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## WorkingOnMe

Unique Username said:


> No where did I call him a jerk.
> 
> I am not hallucinating.
> 
> I have every right to my own opinion and actually offered some advice as how to go about getting what he wants in a different way.
> I asked pertinent questions.
> 
> I don't see anything hostile in my original post.
> I saw questions. I saw honest thought (from a woman's perspective) of how his wife may feel.
> 
> You all have attacked me. And that is just fine and dandy. If it makes you feel better to get your aggression and anger out at me then have at it.
> It seems to me that you all are dumping a lot of crap on me - perhaps resentment from your previous or current spouses. And jumping to a great deal of conclusions yourselves.
> 
> 
> 
> I stand by my advice and my suggestions.


OP has an identical thread in the ladies lounge. Can't you post your vitriol over there?


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## Omego

Is your son difficult to put to bed? If he started out this way as a baby, she probably just felt it would be easier to sleep with him in order to get sleep herself. Then things got out of hand. He's used to it, so I would assume he doesn't "let" her sleep without him. Yes, sometimes children just wear us down.

The fact that it is still going on is a bit strange however, especially as you've asked her to come into your room. Is there any way you could suggest that you fall asleep with him in the guest room or in his room (even better), that she stay in your room, and that you join her after he falls asleep? If she doesn't agree to that, there is clearly a bigger problem.

It may be that somehow, your child has fulfilled the need which was previously fulfilled by you. Her need for affection is satisfied by him. If this is the case, a professional should be consulted. It's not normal to sacrifice the couple relationship for the parent-child relationship....

You're not the only one. I've seen it before. Twice. In both cases, the husband felt completely thrown over in favor of the child..... I think things resolved themselves as the children got older.


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## Tall Average Guy

Unique Username said:


> You all have attacked me. And that is just fine and dandy. If it makes you feel better to get your aggression and anger out at me then have at it.
> It seems to me that you all are dumping a lot of crap on me - perhaps resentment from your previous or current spouses. And jumping to a great deal of conclusions yourselves.


Pot, meet kettle.


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## Unique Username

Tall Average Guy said:


> Pot, meet kettle.


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## Cosmos

Unless there's more to this than you're telling us, OP, IMO, it's ultimatum time. Physical intimacy is the glue that holds a marriage together, and if she's not prepared to move back into the marital bed I would firmly suggest counseling.

You're her husband, not her housemate.


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## tom67

Cosmos said:


> Unless there's more to this than you're telling us, OP, IMO, it's ultimatum time. Physical intimacy is the glue that holds a marriage together, and if she's not prepared to move back into the marital bed I would firmly suggest counseling.
> 
> You're her husband, not her housemate.


:iagree:
OP please fill us in with more info when you have a chance.


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## Tall Average Guy

Unique Username said:


>


While I disagree with you completely, I always respect a good reference to Arrested Development.


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## 305rob305

*Re: Re: Wife co-sleeps with our 4 yr old*



Omego said:


> Is your son difficult to put to bed? If he started out this way as a baby, she probably just felt it would be easier to sleep with him in order to get sleep herself. Then things got out of hand. He's used to it, so I would assume he doesn't "let" her sleep without him. Yes, sometimes children just wear us down.
> 
> The fact that it is still going on is a bit strange however, especially as you've asked her to come into your room. Is there any way you could suggest that you fall asleep with him in the guest room or in his room (even better), that she stay in your room, and that you join her after he falls asleep? If she doesn't agree to that, there is clearly a bigger problem.
> 
> It may be that somehow, your child has fulfilled the need which was previously fulfilled by you. Her need for affection is satisfied by him. If this is the case, a professional should be consulted. It's not normal to sacrifice the couple relationship for the parent-child relationship....
> 
> You're not the only one. I've seen it before. Twice. In both cases, the husband felt completely thrown over in favor of the child..... I think things resolved themselves as the children got older.


Yes but that's still no excuse for not having sex with her husband. There's always an oops the kid is sleeping so let me give you a well deserved bj so he can be happy. Mommy needs to find the time and plus when things are spontaneous it's better. She needs to put the effort! Believe me, I'm going through similar stuff and my wife just doesn't get it that us guys Need it. I don't want to throw this out there but after men "mess up" then women get mad.... Told you so.


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## Bobby5000

Usually I'm with the men but she has a three week old. She has gotten a good workout down there from the pregnancy, so you may have to wait until a couple of months. You now have two children, wait to make the marriage work, so I'd put this on the backburner. 
Go in the room play with the children, be supportive, and revisit the issues in a couple of months.


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## ReformedHubby

Bobby5000 said:


> Usually I'm with the men but she has a three week old. She has gotten a good workout down there from the pregnancy, so you may have to wait until a couple of months. You now have two children, wait to make the marriage work, so I'd put this on the backburner.
> Go in the room play with the children, be supportive, and revisit the issues in a couple of months.


Reread the post Bobby. She doesn't have a three week old. he has been without for 1 year and 3 weeks. Only a total a$$ would expect sex from his wife under those circumstances.


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## happy as a clam

Unique Username said:


> I think it is pretty Sh!tty that you end with "Or should I just leave?"
> 
> Why don't you go about this in a different way.
> Maybe she doesn't want to get pregnant again and is using this as a means of avoiding sex altogether with you.
> Are you CONSTANTLY nagging her about sex all the time and being a jerkface when she declines?
> What other issues came up for this to be the case?
> How about having some empathy and love for your spouse/mother of your child.
> You are coming off like you are selfish and really truly only interested in getting your rocks off not on fixing whatever problems exist. If that's the case - then hell yeah leave so she can find someone who can truly adore her and who can be a great role model for your son.
> 
> 
> My suggestion would be to enlist the help of a trusted family member or close friend to watch the child so that you two can have an adult discussion about your marriage and the expectations of it by each of you.
> 
> Has the child been ill? Is that how it started? When did this begin. You said 1 year and 3 weeks and he is 4 years old
> so what happened 1 year and three weeks ago to make this change happen?
> THAT is the issue you left out and the one which needs to be addressed.
> 
> 
> As for the OTHER way to go about this - it isn't good for the child to be that dependent upon a parent for sleeping. They need their own space and to be able to put themselves calmly to bed. Now that she has co-slept with him for a year...it is going to take some extra work to get him OUT of the habit of it and it probably won't be easy and will be mentally painful for them both.
> 
> Your post comes off to me that you are angry that she won't have sex with you. And sounds like you badger her all the time about it. That is certainly counter-productive.
> 
> So - let's get real and why don't you be honest with yourself and us about what led up to this drastic change 1 year and 3 weeks ago.
> 
> There are a lot of people here who could offer ways to help fix your issues.
> 
> I think it would be better, though, if you move this to the parenting forum.




Ugggghhhh.... This response makes me want to vomit!!!! UU..... you are WAY off base with this. Are you a man-hater? Sure sounds like it to me.


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## Unique Username

nice pumpkin.


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## happy as a clam

Unique Username said:


> I have every right to read between the lines and get my own feeling about the thread and poster.


Did someone make you the judge, jury and executioner? What gives you the right to "read between the lines" and come up with this position? Maybe the OP *NEVER* bugs his wife for sex, perhaps, just perhaps you are ALL WRONG on this?! TAM can be such an unfriendly place, depending on who happens to post in any given moment.

Wow, is all I can say. Glad I haven't encountered you before.

And now I will probably be banned for saying what OUGHT to be said.


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## Unique Username

Nope don't hate men at all.


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## ReformedHubby

happy as a clam said:


> Ugggghhhh.... This response makes me want to vomit!!!! UU..... you are WAY off base with this. Are you a man-hater? Sure sounds like it to me.


Actually, I've read her posts before and I consider her to be one of the more even tempered folks here. Not sure why such a harsh stance based on 1 post.


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## Unique Username

My suggestion would be to enlist the help of a trusted family member or close friend to watch the child so that you two can have an adult discussion about your marriage and the expectations of it by each of you.

Has the child been ill? Is that how it started? When did this begin. You said 1 year and 3 weeks and he is 4 years old
so what happened 1 year and three weeks ago to make this change happen?
THAT is the issue you left out and the one which needs to be addressed.

As for the OTHER way to go about this - it isn't good for the child to be that dependent upon a parent for sleeping. They need their own space and to be able to put themselves calmly to bed. Now that she has co-slept with him for a year...it is going to take some extra work to get him OUT of the habit of it and it probably won't be easy and will be mentally painful for them both.

So - let's get real and why don't you be honest with yourself and us about what led up to this drastic change 1 year and 3 weeks ago.

There are a lot of people here who could offer ways to help fix your issues.


Seems you all completely missed the above...

My perspective is different from yours - doesn't mean it is wrong.


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## happy as a clam

Unique Username said:


> Nope don't hate men at all.


Sure could have fooled me. Done, outta here on this thread! Don't need negativity in my life.


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## ReformedHubby

Unique Username said:


> My suggestion would be to enlist the help of a trusted family member or close friend to watch the child so that you two can have an adult discussion about your marriage and the expectations of it by each of you.
> 
> Has the child been ill? Is that how it started? When did this begin. You said 1 year and 3 weeks and he is 4 years old
> so what happened 1 year and three weeks ago to make this change happen?
> THAT is the issue you left out and the one which needs to be addressed.
> 
> As for the OTHER way to go about this - it isn't good for the child to be that dependent upon a parent for sleeping. They need their own space and to be able to put themselves calmly to bed. Now that she has co-slept with him for a year...it is going to take some extra work to get him OUT of the habit of it and it probably won't be easy and will be mentally painful for them both.
> 
> So - let's get real and why don't you be honest with yourself and us about what led up to this drastic change 1 year and 3 weeks ago.
> 
> There are a lot of people here who could offer ways to help fix your issues.
> 
> 
> Seems you all completely missed the above...
> 
> My perspective is different from yours - doesn't mean it is wrong.


I didn't miss any of it. Wording is everything. What you posted above in my opinion was the more appropriate way to address it. Thanks for at least posting it using prose that is more palatable. 

I think the OP should hear all view points, but the way you opened may have scared the poor man away. We'll see I guess.


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## Unique Username

happy as a clam said:


> Maybe Aunt Flo is visiting?


Yeah that was certainly called for wasn't it.

I didn't attack the OP. I haven't attacked you.

The only one I slightly called out was WorkingOnMe - who then begins calling me Vitriol.

As for having the "right" to read between the lines and make opinions. Well, everyone in every thread does the same thing.

I didn't condemn OP to anything. Not anyone's executioner.

He basically said that if he doesn't get sex from his wife then he'll either seek it elsewhere or walkaway/divorce.

And yet, I am the one that is getting the brunt of the "hatred"

Who made you, Happy Clam, MY judge, jury and executioner.


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## Unique Username

He hasn't replied to this thread or the one in the ladies lounge.

And I have not posted in that one on purpose....since this one seems to have been derailed on slamming me.


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## Cosmos

Bobby5000 said:


> Usually I'm with the men but she has a three week old. She has gotten a good workout down there from the pregnancy, so you may have to wait until a couple of months. You now have two children, wait to make the marriage work, so I'd put this on the backburner.
> Go in the room play with the children, be supportive, and revisit the issues in a couple of months.


I missed that. I obviously didn't read the OP properly, because I thought there was just the 4 year old... At 3 weeks, I still had internal and external stitches! Even so, a couple still need that physical _closeness_ after the birth of a child. I know I did. Best not make it in any way sexual though...


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## Unique Username

My Original post has been quoted too many times to re-write it in a nicer way...better manor.

If I did, it would still have the same meaning, but just be sugar coated.

I sincerely didn't intend for it to hurt anyone's feelbads.

Maybe a PM to me saying - hey it was a little harsh. Why don't you delete it and write the same thing in a nicer way.
And then I could have looked at it and said - hmmm yeah you're right. And none of these pages of backlash would have ensued.

But - that didn't happen.

So, Original Poster (OP), I am sorry if this bothered YOU.

I really think that ultimatums are the wrong way to go.
There has to be something that happened to change everything 1 year and 3 weeks ago. 
If you let us know what happened. There are a plethora of ways to go about instigating change for the better.

Again, My apologies.


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## ReformedHubby

Cosmos said:


> I missed that. I obviously didn't read the OP properly, because I thought there was just the 4 year old... At 3 weeks, I still had internal and external stitches! Even so, a couple still need that physical _closeness_ after the birth of a child. I know I did. Best not make it in any way sexual though...


Hmmmm... I read it as he hasn't had sex in 1 year and 3 weeks. I can't imagine anyone would expect sex three weeks after child birth. I thought it was six weeks at a minimum, and even then you should be gentle.


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## soccermom2three

happy as a clam said:


> Maybe Aunt Flo is visiting?


I can't believe you went there.


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## WorkingOnMe

soccermom2three said:


> I can't believe you went there.


Ya even I didn't go there! I admit I chuckled when I read it, but at least I didn't say it.


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## happy as a clam

soccermom2three said:


> I can't believe you went there.


Sorry, but the whole response was way over the top and felt a bit hormonal IMHO.


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## salmonoid1

Tall Average Guy said:


> We need a lot more detail.
> 
> How was your sex life before you child?
> What caused her to move into her child's bed? Is that cause still around?
> Does she work outside the home? Do you?
> Any large issues or events during your marriage? Infidelity, loss of a job, loss of a loved one, etc.?
> How do you two handle disagreements apart from sex? How do you two get along otherwise? How are chores divided up?
> What childcare are you involved in?


1.Sex life before was active, satisfying.
2.My son broke his leg (friends trampoline) and we decided to take turns staying with him in the guestroom for obvious reasons.
3.No large issues.
4.Disagreements-we discuss and then she will do what she wants anyway. Get along-seems like we more or less tolerate each other. Chores-She does the laundry. I cook dinner (gourmet, not hot dogs or mac-n-cheese) and do the dishes at least 5 nights a week. cleaning is divided equally. Child care-is even up.

Please understand, this is NOT JUST ABOUT THE LACK OF SEX. This is everyday simple human affection, the thing that brought us together. Her hand in mine, a simple hug and a passionate quick kiss that leaves me wanting more with that sexy look in her eye as she looks back as she is walking away. 
As for me. I have changed as well. I WAS a very passionate and romantic husband. I can tell you she has stacks of love letters and poems that I have written over the years in our closet. I wrote, recorded and sang a love song to her on our wedding day. I asked her to marry me under the love statue in Philadelphia and 2 valentines days ago I made 20-2'x2' signs with the love statue on them and posted them along her whole route to work with a giant sign attached to her building for her to see when she pulled up. That was probably the last big thing I have done for her. There are countless other things I have done, things that I really enjoyed doing for her, it was fun for me. 
Now, today, things are just awkward, like she doesn't even know what to do with me. It's been so long since we have had any wild, crazy, sweaty sex.Her efforts, what little there are, seem forced like she has totally forgotten how to love me. Maybe she just doesn't anymore.
I don't complain about the lack of affection but I'm not exactly doling it out either, guess I'm just tired of being rejected. I really just don't know what the hell to do anymore. I _COULD_ try just going for it and start writing to her again and going all out with the extra effort to make her feel really special, I don't know. I guess if I did that and it doesn't work then I'll have to come to grips that it's over and just move on. 
The co-sleeping has got to stop.


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## Unique Username

Since it has been so long since you showed affection to each other,
take the opportunity to start writing love letters to her again. Romance her. Try getting her to fall in love with you all over again. Woo her. 
Don't concentrate on sex...concentrate on winng her over all over again.

It IS awkward because it has been so long.

I'm sorry your little one was injured. That's traumatic for all of you.

If his leg is healed. Now is the time to say, honey - he's much better now. His room is remodeled perfectly the way we all wanted it...he will start sleeping there....set a date for this to happen.

It is really two different things to work on...but at the same time.

As for getting her back in your bed. Concentrate on getting your boy back in his own room. At the same time send her little notes and texts and things to positively reinforce the good things she does toward this goal. 

Thank you for coming back and reposting.
You don't sound like you want to leave at all.
You do sound like you love your wife and are willing to do the things necessary to fix the problems.

I really will be sending my good wishes and healing vibes your way.


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## soccermom2three

happy as a clam said:


> Sorry, but the whole response was way over the top and felt a bit hormonal IMHO.


When some guy is posting on here and it's clear he's in a pissy mood sometimes I want to post, "Dude, you need to get laid". But I know better.


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## Trickster

Salmonoid


My wife would always stay with our daughter until she fell asleep. Our daughter is 10 YEARS OLD now and my wife still stays next to our daughter until she falls asleep...Up until 6 months ago, my wife would fall asleep as well, usually before our daughter. I would go in there to wake her up to come to bed... By then, it was too late or she was too tired for any affection... aka...sex.

The harder I tried the worse it became... This went on for so many years...



After all this time, I finally gave up and she told me she never loved me... I think she loved how I treated her ...

Before that, I tried to relight the affection...It wasn't about the lack of sex. All my efforts were just a short term fix... 

My wife told me how she really feels... The ball is in my court now...she is emotionally gone..all affection feels forced. We both feel that way. Isn't in love with me..

Try to restart the romance like what you did before...

Maybe text her..."thinking of you" , ask her if she wants a neck massage (without sex afterwards), get a baby sitter and go out, do some of the things you did before

I was just like you... I left love notes in her lunch, wrote poems, drew hearts on the bathroom mirror, made dinner most nights...Even Gumbo...among other dishes...she cant be as cold as my wife.


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## Mr. Nail

A little while ago I read a post by a woman complaining that her great husband spent all his time with the kids and not enough with her. He was involved in their sports and hobbies. This post has reminded me a lot of the other. Sure we love our kids. We want to give them the best of everything. 
I'd just like to remind anyone who is thinking about this that the best gift you can give your children is happily married parents. 
This particular thread details no short term problem but a 4 year crisis. Serious changes are in contemplation because there is little hope remaining.
MN


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## sinnister

My wife does it too. Makes zero sense.

OP if you cheat or leave its on her. You made your feelings clear. If she doesnt respect them enough to acknowledge it....you gotta do you.


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## Unique Username

Sleep Help: Get Kids to Sleep in Their Own Bed - iVillage

Need to Get Kids to Their Own Bed? Sleep Intervention Could Help - ABC News

How Can I Get My Child to Sleep in His Own Bed? - ParentDish

When Should Family Sleeping Stop? | momlogic.com

The Negative Effects of Co-Sleeping | eHow

Ready to Stop Co-Sleeping? : Toddler Sleep Issues : Toddlers : pregnancy and parenting on JustMommies


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## Unique Username

sinnister said:


> My wife does it too. Makes zero sense.
> 
> OP if you cheat or leave its on her. You made your feelings clear. If she doesnt respect them enough to acknowledge it....you gotta do you.


That is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a good long while.

Cheating is solely placed on the cheater.


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## coffee4me

I was a wife given that ultimatum... Sleep in the same bed with me or we file for divorce. 

It worked. I did sleep in the same bed and nothing else in our marriage changed. I was still unaffectionate and resentful. I agree with UU in that you need to find out what the real issue is instead of demanding she sleep in the same bed. 

There is something that is causing her lack of desire and affection for you. My advice would be to not only ramp up your attention in small, fun and clever ways (you seem to have a gift for that ). But also to gently not accusingly open up dialogue, she needs to feel safe to tell you what is really causing her to withdraw her affection. Honestly, at first she might not know what to say or the real reason it's happening but I think she is aware it's happening. I was, aware, even thou I had a lot of trouble articulating why I felt that way. 

Best of Luck, you sound like you have a lot of love for her be patient but persistent in finding answers.


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## Unique Username

happy as a clam said:


> Sorry, but the whole response was way over the top and felt a bit hormonal IMHO.


Your opinion was anything but humble.

Attacking another woman in such a way - rather uncool.


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## WorkingOnMe

Unique Username said:


> Your opinion was anything but humble.
> 
> Attacking another woman in such a way - rather uncool.


Just answer the question!!!

Kidding, kidding. So HAAC is a woman? I didn't even know that.


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## Unique Username

WorkingOnMe said:


> Just answer the question!!!
> 
> Kidding, kidding. So HAAC is a woman? I didn't even know that.


View public profile...says that it is female, long term relationship of only 2-4 years.


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## Omego

305rob305 said:


> Yes but that's still no excuse for not having sex with her husband.


Yes, that's what I'm saying.... But now I've gotten confused with the number and age of children, so I'll have to go back and re-read the OPs last post....


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## Omego

salmonoid1 said:


> Please understand, this is NOT JUST ABOUT THE LACK OF SEX. This is everyday simple human affection, the thing that brought us together. Her hand in mine, a simple hug and a passionate quick kiss that leaves me wanting more with that sexy look in her eye as she looks back as she is walking away.
> 
> The co-sleeping has got to stop.


Yes, it does seem as though she's traded in the wife role for the mommy one. I agree that you should start by ending the co-sleeping.

It sounds as though some counseling would be helpful, because the resentment building up between the two of you is not going to help make things better....

I'm sorry for your situation, however, from what you describe, the foundation is solid. If there was passion at the start, it could be rekindled.....?


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## Mr The Other

sinnister said:


> My wife does it too. Makes zero sense.
> 
> OP if you cheat or leave its on her. You made your feelings clear. If she doesnt respect them enough to acknowledge it....you gotta do you.


That is not true.

Cheating before leaving is cheating. And you should not leave other than as a last resort, there are kids involved.


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## Mr The Other

UU, I think your first post came over far harsher than intended, but that is the way with text.

This is not a bad wife in many ways. She cleans, works and looks after the kids. There is a great deal to be grateful for and a great deal to lose. I am not sure what to recommend, and TAM is often too quick to recommend leaving or macho solutions. Ensure you give her a kiss every day, ideally every morning and evening (even though it will feel unnatural), as it will feel even odder if you try to start later. coffee4me knows far more than me.

In my ignorant opinion, there is a danger of the child being molly-coddled. That might have to be worked on.


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## turnera

salmonoid1 said:


> I don't complain about the lack of affection but I'm not exactly doling it out either, guess I'm just tired of being rejected. I really just don't know what the hell to do anymore. I _COULD_ try just going for it and start writing to her again and going all out with the extra effort to make her feel really special, I don't know. I guess if I did that and it doesn't work then I'll have to come to grips that it's over and just move on.
> The co-sleeping has got to stop.


Yes, the co-sleeping has to to stop. But I wouldn't just demand it right now. Why? Because you've lost her respect and you're just the roommate right now. Think back to what attracted her to you in the first place, I'll guess you were taking her out, making her feel special, spending money on nice dinners for her...now she's just a mom. She's forgotten that woman. Try bringing back that woman again. Line up a weekly babysitter and insist she leave him with the babysitter - no discussion. Start reconnecting with her. Women have to have the emotional connection to want to have the sex, typically. Time to remind her why she married you. 

According to Dr. Harley, you should be spending 15 hours a week together AWAY FROM your child, away from chores, doing things that reconnect you as male and female - have a cup of coffee each morning, go on walks, take a bath together while the kid's napping, ride bikes, play tennis, whatever it takes to be face to face with each other, talk to each other, pay attention to each other. This is vital. Figure out how to make it work. 

Once you've done this, she should start remembering you're alive. After awhile, you'll want to try sweeping her off her feet into the bedroom for a naughty quicky, to remind her about the rest of the marriage. After that, you should be able to start talking about the bedroom. You have to give her a reason to go back, not just that it's her 'duty.'

And read His Needs Her Needs asap.


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## Tall Average Guy

salmonoid1 said:


> 1.Sex life before was active, satisfying.
> 2.My son broke his leg (friends trampoline) and we decided to take turns staying with him in the guestroom for obvious reasons.
> 3.No large issues.
> 4.Disagreements-we discuss and then she will do what she wants anyway. Get along-seems like we more or less tolerate each other. Chores-She does the laundry. I cook dinner (gourmet, not hot dogs or mac-n-cheese) and do the dishes at least 5 nights a week. cleaning is divided equally. Child care-is even up.
> 
> Please understand, this is NOT JUST ABOUT THE LACK OF SEX. This is everyday simple human affection, the thing that brought us together. Her hand in mine, a simple hug and a passionate quick kiss that leaves me wanting more with that sexy look in her eye as she looks back as she is walking away.
> As for me. I have changed as well. I WAS a very passionate and romantic husband. I can tell you she has stacks of love letters and poems that I have written over the years in our closet. I wrote, recorded and sang a love song to her on our wedding day. I asked her to marry me under the love statue in Philadelphia and 2 valentines days ago I made 20-2'x2' signs with the love statue on them and posted them along her whole route to work with a giant sign attached to her building for her to see when she pulled up. That was probably the last big thing I have done for her. There are countless other things I have done, things that I really enjoyed doing for her, it was fun for me.
> Now, today, things are just awkward, like she doesn't even know what to do with me. It's been so long since we have had any wild, crazy, sweaty sex.Her efforts, what little there are, seem forced like she has totally forgotten how to love me. Maybe she just doesn't anymore.
> I don't complain about the lack of affection but I'm not exactly doling it out either, guess I'm just tired of being rejected. I really just don't know what the hell to do anymore. I _COULD_ try just going for it and start writing to her again and going all out with the extra effort to make her feel really special, I don't know. I guess if I did that and it doesn't work then I'll have to come to grips that it's over and just move on.
> The co-sleeping has got to stop.


Thanks for the additional information. This is helpful, but does lead to a couple of other questions. When did her effort and affection for you stop? When did yours stop? How soon after getting married did you have your child? 

I think much of the advice on rekindling is good. But I am curious as to the timeline as to when things started down hill and conceiving and having the child. Some women forget to that they are more than just a mom and welcome the reminder. But some women don't. What reminders (if any) did you give and what were the results?


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## Trickster

Salmonoid-

It seems like you were the ultra romantic....Is there a chance that your wife was in love with all the attention you gave her?

When baby first came, did your wife go through PPD?

Before our Daughter was born, we didn't have much sex, but he were affectionate because I always was the one to initiate affection... 

Were you always the one to initiate affection?

So when sex totally stopped after our daughter was born, we not only stopped sex, all affection slowly died as well.... I stopped initiating affection.. Why bother...right... Just to get rejected? I don't think so...

Did you stop initiating affection?

It seems like most people are telling you to fix this situation...that it's something that you are doing wrong. I don't think you are doing anything wrong...I think you are just frustrated and you are giving up on trying...


I think you know how to be romantic from what you say you did before...

What is the reason now that your wife sleeps with your son?

I get the feeling that if you go back to being the ultra romantic your wife will still stay with your son... Our daughter is 10...and my wife still stays with our daughter until she falls asleep... I've been trying to get her to stop for so many years and she will still do what she wants no matter what I do or say...

Only you know the whole story... You and I are in a similar situation... I just have 6 more years of frustration and anger than you... Somehow, we are still married...

You will get through this....stay strong...


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## salmonoid1

Trickster said:


> Salmonoid-
> 
> It seems like you were the ultra romantic....Is there a chance that your wife was in love with all the attention you gave her?
> 
> When baby first came, did your wife go through PPD?
> 
> Before our Daughter was born, we didn't have much sex, but he were affectionate because I always was the one to initiate affection...
> 
> Were you always the one to initiate affection?
> 
> So when sex totally stopped after our daughter was born, we not only stopped sex, all affection slowly died as well.... I stopped initiating affection.. Why bother...right... Just to get rejected? I don't think so...
> 
> Did you stop initiating affection?
> 
> It seems like most people are telling you to fix this situation...that it's something that you are doing wrong. I don't think you are doing anything wrong...I think you are just frustrated and you are giving up on trying...
> 
> 
> I think you know how to be romantic from what you say you did before...
> 
> What is the reason now that your wife sleeps with your son?
> 
> I get the feeling that if you go back to being the ultra romantic your wife will still stay with your son... Our daughter is 10...and my wife still stays with our daughter until she falls asleep... I've been trying to get her to stop for so many years and she will still do what she wants no matter what I do or say...
> 
> Only you know the whole story... You and I are in a similar situation... I just have 6 more years of frustration and anger than you... Somehow, we are still married...
> 
> You will get through this....stay strong...


YES, very similar. 

Before our son I did all kinds of things, planned weekend getaways where I packed her bags, picked her up at work early after planning it with her boss and wisked her away. Dinners out, flowers, love letters, massages, gifts, you name it I did it. Never got or expected anything except her love and affection which she freely gave. I gave up after she stopped giving it and couldn' even muster up a kiss. 

Yes, I pretty much kept the fire going in our relationship. It's nothing but a smoldering pile of ash right now and I feel like I could just be wasting my time if I start stoking it again. I feel like she should be the one putting in the effort to get our marriage back. After all, I didn't do this, SHE shut ME out. Below is letter I wrote and gave her a few months back, it's kinda long but you will know where i'm coming from if you read it. It didn't changer anything. 

_ I want to preface this letter by saying that this is not an attack on you. I will try and give you a thorough and honest description, from my heart, of what it feels like for me, being the husband of a wife with a low sex drive and no signs of wanting to show any affection towards me whatsoever. I think that if you had only listened to me, really listened and tried to understand how I am feeling and have felt for a very long time we would not be where we are today. I am not blaming you entirely but I do believe you hold some accountability with all of this.
I'm angry, I think that is the dominant emotion at this time. After so many years of trying to help you understand the rejection I feel, I've finally come to the point of anger over the situation. I also love you very much though. Outside the issue of sex I could write (and have in the past) volumes of things about you that are indescribably perfect and make you a far better woman than I could ever hope to be worthy of and this comes as much from the bottom of my heart as anything else I'm about to write here.
The love and desire I feel for you coupled with the anger I feel over the sexual issue only makes our situation that much more frustrating for me. I would never divorce you, not ever. Even if the ability to have sex was taken from either of us and I knew that my marriage would remain sexless I would never leave you. My love for you is not based on whether I have sex with you. However, my desire to have sex with you does stem from the feelings of love I have for you. There is no way I could ever be happier without you than I am with you.
So, although I did not get married just so I could have sex, I did not get married so that I could NOT have sex. Sex is only one of a multitude of reason I married you. I married you out of love, with a need for your companionship, to be partners for life with you, to share mutual respect, desire, share lifelong goals with you, raise a family AND to be able to have sex with you, the person I have chosen to do these and other things with. Let's face it, if all I had wanted was a companion, a friend, someone to set life goals with and share mutual respect with, I could have found myself a roommate to live with instead.
This may sound asinine at first but think about it. I don't think there is one thing you can give me that I couldn't get from a good friend and roommate other than a loving, emotionally intimate, sexual relationship. Even if I wanted to be a parent, I could adopt a child. So, why would I make a lifetime commitment to marriage and parenthood knowing that I am not going to be getting what I consider to be "icing on the cake"….an intimate sexual relationship with the woman I love?
I'm not trying to be jerk, just pointing out a way of looking at it, from my point of view and one that is probably very different from your point of view. My point in all this is that I don't think the problems of our sexless marriage or sex starved marriage can be solved until you are really, truly willing to see it from my perspective. Even if you don’t feel comfortable hearing about it or discussing it, it is very likely that being aware of my feelings and compensating for them will only help. In our situation, this “no sex” situation, ignorance is not bliss. Sometimes I feel like you would rather turn a blind eye to the problem rather than face it head on. Kind of a “as long as I don’t bother you about it everything is OK” kind of attitude. Please understand that it is not “OK”. I am going out of my mind wondering and waiting for you to come out of this “funk” that I think you are in. It drives me crazy. Here I am married to this beautiful, wonderful woman who all I want to do is be close to and she doesn’t want me to touch her…. and… she doesn’t want to touch me, on top that she won’t talk about it. What do I do? How do I deal with this?
I don’t know what happened but I think somewhere down the line your idea of what our marriage would be like changed. You are no longer the woman I married. You didn't discuss the change with me, didn't ask me how I felt about the change and don’t seem to feel any moral obligation to try and live in a way that means we maintain the intimate connection that makes us husband and wife. Meanwhile I wait for it and wait for it wondering when it will happen, building frustration and anger the whole time, not wanting to ask for fear of rejection again. Not really a healthy way for anybody to live.
You may have a good reason for making the change. It could be physiological. You may be tired and stressed out and just not feeling the same old urges you used to feel. Maybe having Connor chasing you around lessens your desire. Maybe I don't “rock your world any longer” who knows. Maybe I’m too fat for you. I do know that we have never really discussed why you no longer have any sexual desire. As you know, I certainly wouldn’t mind putting the extra effort to get you in the mood but I don’t know if you even want sex. Whatever your reasons are for changing, my desires stayed the same, and my need to be intimately connected to my wife will always be there. I need you near me, next to me in bed, holding my hand when we are walking, kissing me, hugging me all the basic human needs that we all thrive on. If you really love me this is not a hard thing to do, is it?
I now have to live with the idea that I am morally, legally and emotionally tied to a woman who is dismissive of something that I feel is a very important aspect of our marriage. It seems to me that, you almost feel that, since you no longer desire sex on a regular basis that my feelings should have adjusted just because your feelings did.
I live my life for you and my family. I go to work every day to help us pay for the roof over our heads, any vacations we might take, the food we eat, cook dinner AND do the dishes, fix stuff in and out of the house, build tree houses etc. I do NOTHING without consulting you first and would never dream of making the decision to change an aspect of our life drastically and not discuss it with you. Your decision to stop having sex has drastically changed our lives. I went from someone you wanted to have sex with to someone you don’t want to come near you, a husband you don’t even sleep in the same bed with. I had a wife for 4.5 years who was a full participant in our sex life. It was exciting, adventurous and everything I had planned it to be before we got married. Overnight it all changed though and now, when I question you about it, or suggest we do something sexual I get the rolled eyes and look of disgust. I feel guilty that the once a month encounters we might have are like pulling teeth and I get the feeling that you just don’t even want to be there. 
I think the world of you and would never consider leaving you. I've already stated that. Outside of sex I still believe you are an awesome wife and mother. Even though that is true, deep down and SEXUALLY SPEAKING, sometimes I think that I've made the worst mistake of my life and I am now stuck with someone who isn't going to meet, what for me, is a very strong and very basic drive and need…to have a sexual relationship with my wife. Sometimes I feel like I have been short changed or a victim of the old "bait and switch," and it isn't a good feeling, not a good feeling at all.
I love you Danielle and hope this explains (not excuses) to you exactly why I lost my head the other night and said the nasty things I said. Let’s fix it together. I want to be happy again, I want us to love each other like we used to. Turn you anger towards fixing our problems rather than running from them. It’s too easy to quit and you’re not a quitter. If it works it works, if it doesn’t it doesn’t but at least we can part ways knowing we gave it everything we had. I don’t think we’re done yet.
I could have apologized right away but it wouldn’t have meant anything. I was still angry. Angry at the fact that I let myself get to that point and angry that we are in this situation at all. As I said, I should have set some counseling up before it got that bad for me and then it wouldn’t have been so bad for you. The cruise doesn’t matter to me. Nothing else matters to me other than that we reconnect emotionally and physically otherwise nothing will change and it will be over. Please, if you have to step out of your skin into mine, read this letter 100 times and dissect every sentence to understand where I am coming from, do it. 
I am sure that you are probably offended by some of the things I have said here. As angry or offended you may feel right now it is the honest and undeniable fact of the matter is that it's true. These are my true feelings. They might as well be out in the open so they can be faced and at least considered by you, the only person who holds the key to solving this problem. I’m not asking a lot and you might actually enjoy yourself. The increased intimacy could make our marriage stronger and we can pick up where we left off, back when we were happier than we are right now, well, unless I get a cramp or headache of course.



All my love always_


----------



## sinnister

Unique Username said:


> That is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a good long while.
> 
> Cheating is solely placed on the cheater.


I use to feel that way too. When you get your needs deliberately ignored long enough why should I have any sympathy for the plight of those who ignore them?


----------



## sinnister

Mr The Other said:


> That is not true.
> 
> Cheating before leaving is cheating. And you should not leave other than as a last resort, there are kids involved.


Agreed....4 years ago. Now I'm like...whatever. Know what I mean?


----------



## turnera

So you wrote her a tome telling her why she is ruining the marriage and hurting you, and you got no response. 

And you are surprised...why?


----------



## sinnister

PHP:


[QUOTE="salmonoid1, post: 7988770, member: 128162"]YES, very similar. 

Before our son I did all kinds of things, planned weekend getaways where I packed her bags, picked her up at work early after planning it with her boss and wisked her away. Dinners out, flowers, love letters, massages, gifts, you name it I did it. Never got or expected anything except her love and affection which she freely gave. I gave up after she stopped giving it and couldn' even muster up a kiss. 

Yes, I pretty much kept the fire going in our relationship. It's nothing but a smoldering pile of ash right now and I feel like I could just be wasting my time if I start stoking it again. I feel like she should be the one putting in the effort to get our marriage back. After all, I didn't do this, SHE shut ME out. Below is letter I wrote and gave her a few months back, it's kinda long but you will know where i'm coming from if you read it. It didn't changer anything.

OP I've been where you are. You can listen to people who basically tell you that YOU are the problem and that you have to massage her feet, or take the kids out more, or be the designated Butler in the house. That may buy you a sympathy hug now and then.

But I'm telling you this because I have lived this. I know because I am going through it today. Nothing that YOU can do will change this situation. Nothing. Nadda. Zip. Zilch!

You have to decide what's right for you. I chose to stay cause I love my babies too much to not be there everyday. But you may be different. I truly hope you can work it out because clearly you love her deeply. But I fear you'll be trapped in this marriage until your child leaves the nest and your vital years would have been spent sleeping in your own room without so much as a peck on the cheek on holidays.

People her can provide advice and give anecdotes of their plight, but only you can decide what to do. I can tell you for a fact that writing that letter did absolutely zero good. That's how those who ignore intimacy operate. Your needs aren't a need to them. It is boring chore they'd rather not have to do.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

salmonoid1 said:


> YES, very similar.
> 
> Before our son I did all kinds of things, planned weekend getaways where I packed her bags, picked her up at work early after planning it with her boss and wisked her away. Dinners out, flowers, love letters, massages, gifts, you name it I did it. Never got or expected anything except her love and affection which she freely gave. I gave up after she stopped giving it and couldn' even muster up a kiss.
> 
> Yes, I pretty much kept the fire going in our relationship. It's nothing but a smoldering pile of ash right now and I feel like I could just be wasting my time if I start stoking it again. I feel like she should be the one putting in the effort to get our marriage back. After all, I didn't do this, SHE shut ME out. Below is letter I wrote and gave her a few months back, it's kinda long but you will know where i'm coming from if you read it. It didn't changer anything.
> 
> _ I want to preface this letter by saying that this is not an attack on you. I will try and give you a thorough and honest description, from my heart, of what it feels like for me, being the husband of a wife with a low sex drive and no signs of wanting to show any affection towards me whatsoever. I think that if you had only listened to me, really listened and tried to understand how I am feeling and have felt for a very long time we would not be where we are today. I am not blaming you entirely but I do believe you hold some accountability with all of this.
> I'm angry, I think that is the dominant emotion at this time. After so many years of trying to help you understand the rejection I feel, I've finally come to the point of anger over the situation. I also love you very much though. Outside the issue of sex I could write (and have in the past) volumes of things about you that are indescribably perfect and make you a far better woman than I could ever hope to be worthy of and this comes as much from the bottom of my heart as anything else I'm about to write here.
> The love and desire I feel for you coupled with the anger I feel over the sexual issue only makes our situation that much more frustrating for me. I would never divorce you, not ever. Even if the ability to have sex was taken from either of us and I knew that my marriage would remain sexless I would never leave you. My love for you is not based on whether I have sex with you. However, my desire to have sex with you does stem from the feelings of love I have for you. There is no way I could ever be happier without you than I am with you.
> So, although I did not get married just so I could have sex, I did not get married so that I could NOT have sex. Sex is only one of a multitude of reason I married you. I married you out of love, with a need for your companionship, to be partners for life with you, to share mutual respect, desire, share lifelong goals with you, raise a family AND to be able to have sex with you, the person I have chosen to do these and other things with. Let's face it, if all I had wanted was a companion, a friend, someone to set life goals with and share mutual respect with, I could have found myself a roommate to live with instead.
> This may sound asinine at first but think about it. I don't think there is one thing you can give me that I couldn't get from a good friend and roommate other than a loving, emotionally intimate, sexual relationship. Even if I wanted to be a parent, I could adopt a child. So, why would I make a lifetime commitment to marriage and parenthood knowing that I am not going to be getting what I consider to be "icing on the cake"….an intimate sexual relationship with the woman I love?
> I'm not trying to be jerk, just pointing out a way of looking at it, from my point of view and one that is probably very different from your point of view. My point in all this is that I don't think the problems of our sexless marriage or sex starved marriage can be solved until you are really, truly willing to see it from my perspective. Even if you don’t feel comfortable hearing about it or discussing it, it is very likely that being aware of my feelings and compensating for them will only help. In our situation, this “no sex” situation, ignorance is not bliss. Sometimes I feel like you would rather turn a blind eye to the problem rather than face it head on. Kind of a “as long as I don’t bother you about it everything is OK” kind of attitude. Please understand that it is not “OK”. I am going out of my mind wondering and waiting for you to come out of this “funk” that I think you are in. It drives me crazy. Here I am married to this beautiful, wonderful woman who all I want to do is be close to and she doesn’t want me to touch her…. and… she doesn’t want to touch me, on top that she won’t talk about it. What do I do? How do I deal with this?
> I don’t know what happened but I think somewhere down the line your idea of what our marriage would be like changed. You are no longer the woman I married. You didn't discuss the change with me, didn't ask me how I felt about the change and don’t seem to feel any moral obligation to try and live in a way that means we maintain the intimate connection that makes us husband and wife. Meanwhile I wait for it and wait for it wondering when it will happen, building frustration and anger the whole time, not wanting to ask for fear of rejection again. Not really a healthy way for anybody to live.
> You may have a good reason for making the change. It could be physiological. You may be tired and stressed out and just not feeling the same old urges you used to feel. Maybe having Connor chasing you around lessens your desire. Maybe I don't “rock your world any longer” who knows. Maybe I’m too fat for you. I do know that we have never really discussed why you no longer have any sexual desire. As you know, I certainly wouldn’t mind putting the extra effort to get you in the mood but I don’t know if you even want sex. Whatever your reasons are for changing, my desires stayed the same, and my need to be intimately connected to my wife will always be there. I need you near me, next to me in bed, holding my hand when we are walking, kissing me, hugging me all the basic human needs that we all thrive on. If you really love me this is not a hard thing to do, is it?
> I now have to live with the idea that I am morally, legally and emotionally tied to a woman who is dismissive of something that I feel is a very important aspect of our marriage. It seems to me that, you almost feel that, since you no longer desire sex on a regular basis that my feelings should have adjusted just because your feelings did.
> I live my life for you and my family. I go to work every day to help us pay for the roof over our heads, any vacations we might take, the food we eat, cook dinner AND do the dishes, fix stuff in and out of the house, build tree houses etc. I do NOTHING without consulting you first and would never dream of making the decision to change an aspect of our life drastically and not discuss it with you. Your decision to stop having sex has drastically changed our lives. I went from someone you wanted to have sex with to someone you don’t want to come near you, a husband you don’t even sleep in the same bed with. I had a wife for 4.5 years who was a full participant in our sex life. It was exciting, adventurous and everything I had planned it to be before we got married. Overnight it all changed though and now, when I question you about it, or suggest we do something sexual I get the rolled eyes and look of disgust. I feel guilty that the once a month encounters we might have are like pulling teeth and I get the feeling that you just don’t even want to be there.
> I think the world of you and would never consider leaving you. I've already stated that. Outside of sex I still believe you are an awesome wife and mother. Even though that is true, deep down and SEXUALLY SPEAKING, sometimes I think that I've made the worst mistake of my life and I am now stuck with someone who isn't going to meet, what for me, is a very strong and very basic drive and need…to have a sexual relationship with my wife. Sometimes I feel like I have been short changed or a victim of the old "bait and switch," and it isn't a good feeling, not a good feeling at all.
> I love you Danielle and hope this explains (not excuses) to you exactly why I lost my head the other night and said the nasty things I said. Let’s fix it together. I want to be happy again, I want us to love each other like we used to. Turn you anger towards fixing our problems rather than running from them. It’s too easy to quit and you’re not a quitter. If it works it works, if it doesn’t it doesn’t but at least we can part ways knowing we gave it everything we had. I don’t think we’re done yet.
> I could have apologized right away but it wouldn’t have meant anything. I was still angry. Angry at the fact that I let myself get to that point and angry that we are in this situation at all. As I said, I should have set some counseling up before it got that bad for me and then it wouldn’t have been so bad for you. The cruise doesn’t matter to me. Nothing else matters to me other than that we reconnect emotionally and physically otherwise nothing will change and it will be over. Please, if you have to step out of your skin into mine, read this letter 100 times and dissect every sentence to understand where I am coming from, do it.
> I am sure that you are probably offended by some of the things I have said here. As angry or offended you may feel right now it is the honest and undeniable fact of the matter is that it's true. These are my true feelings. They might as well be out in the open so they can be faced and at least considered by you, the only person who holds the key to solving this problem. I’m not asking a lot and you might actually enjoy yourself. The increased intimacy could make our marriage stronger and we can pick up where we left off, back when we were happier than we are right now, well, unless I get a cramp or headache of course.
> 
> 
> 
> All my love always_


Too late now, but that letter was a bad idea. Way to whiney. You told her you were never leaving, so things can't be that bad. You also lay all the blame on her, meaning she is going to get defensive right away (regardless of whether you are correct or not). 

I strongly suspect that you two have difficulties communicating. Apologize once for the letter, telling her that a lot of it was out of frustration. Find a counselor and ask that she go so you two can work on communicating, because you are not hearing each other right now. Whatever her answer, you need to go to figure out some tools for talking, because what ever you are doing now is not working.

You also need to get comfortable with the idea that divorce is a possible outcome. I am not suggesting that you divorce her now, or threaten her with it or tell her that you are thinking about it. Rather, you need to accept that if you do everything that you can and she still refuses to address things, divorce will be the ultimate outcome. Accept that as sad as that would make you, you can still find happiness without her and eventually with some one else.


----------



## turnera

sinnister said:


> OP I've been where you are. You can listen to people who basically tell you that YOU are the problem and that you have to massage her feet, or take the kids out more, or be the designated Butler in the house. That may buy you a sympathy hug now and then.
> 
> But I'm telling you this because I have lived this. I know because I am going through it today. Nothing that YOU can do will change this situation. Nothing. Nadda. Zip. Zilch!


First, I have not said he is the problem. I have said he has a good chance to FIX the situation if he follows the method I describe, which was developed by someone who specializes in marriages that have gone flat like his has. His book His Needs Her Needs was developed specifically BECAUSE of marriages like this one, where the two adults fade apart after kids and forget why they got married. If she were here, I'd be telling her to do the exact same thing. But he's here, learning, so I'm showing him that you CAN get your marriage back on track if you just get out of your comfort zone and right the ship. I'm sure SHE wants to be in love again, too, she just isn't 'aware' enough to realize what's happened.

Second, it is not true that nothing he does can change this, unless he married someone whose sole interest was a sperm donor, and we have no proof of that.

Third, he's being a doormat at this point, and no woman can respect - or desire - a doormat. Whining about how he gets no affection won't make her care. Showing her how great life can be together has a much better chance at it.


----------



## Hicks

There is a basic gameplan to making your marriage sexual.

1. Make sure your wife's life is great specifically becuase of things you do. You want to see and observe her day to day happiness.
2. Once you do #1, if that does not work on it's own, once you verify she is happy and satisfied in her life, you ask her if she intends to be all take and no give?

So what is it you can to to make her happier? That's your starting point.


----------



## turnera

And reading HNHN will help you figure that out.


----------



## Trickster

Salmonoid-

Your letter sounded a little needy. Exactly like some of the things I told my wife... I told her I wouldn't D because of our friendship/companionship is worth more than sex.... That was a bunch of krap .... 

I forgot if you said she is a SAHM.....I'f that's the case, with a D, you will feel guilty as heck and you feel responsible for you wife and daughter no matter what.

I read so many books and took advice from TAMMERS and it helped for the short term...it was just so hard to keep up with all the effort to get sex... I did get the sex, there was just zero passion which caused more frustration... Then I became an A-hole... I've been back and forth and jumping through so many hoops and my wife is just laughing inside... I am the mental case...I don't sleep all that much...I may think clear for a few days and sleep good, but it doesn't last...

I love my wife so much and can't imagine my life without her. She knows that which gives her all the power...

You wife holds all the cards, she has the control, she has the power...

I will even bet she would refuse a MC because you are the one messed up. You letter proved that...I know that because i have said some mean things out of frustration and apologized soon after...She has yet to apologize for anything because in her eyes, she does nothing wrong.

Tell her you want the both of you to go to a MC...


----------



## 6301

The woman needs help. Get it for her and if she refuses then file. She going to screw this kids mind up big time and she only hurting him.

Time for you to do something to wake her ass up. Nice doesn't work. 

If you divorced her, what is she going to do, come over to your home and sleep with him on your days with the kid?

Time for you to bring out the big stick and wake her up. I don't care if she never sleeps with you again and with her mentality you shouldn't want to either but for Gods sake man, that kid will be a mamas boy and never be able to stand up on his own two feet if you don't soon get a grip on this situation It's your kid too.


----------



## sinnister

turnera said:


> First, I have not said he is the problem. I have said he has a good chance to FIX the situation if he follows the method I describe, which was developed by someone who specializes in marriages that have gone flat like his has. His book His Needs Her Needs was developed specifically BECAUSE of marriages like this one, where the two adults fade apart after kids and forget why they got married. If she were here, I'd be telling her to do the exact same thing. But he's here, learning, so I'm showing him that you CAN get your marriage back on track if you just get out of your comfort zone and right the ship. I'm sure SHE wants to be in love again, too, she just isn't 'aware' enough to realize what's happened.
> 
> Second, it is not true that nothing he does can change this, unless he married someone whose sole interest was a sperm donor, and we have no proof of that.
> 
> Third, he's being a doormat at this point, and no woman can respect - or desire - a doormat. Whining about how he gets no affection won't make her care. Showing her how great life can be together has a much better chance at it.


My post wasnt directed at you in particular. Or really anybody else here to be honest. It was speaking in generalities.

There is nothing this man can do himself to change her mind. When a woman decides that her man is not worthy of her sexual attention...it's a wrap. He may as well start planning his life without her. 

This is bleak. It's cold and presumptuous. I realize that. But I'm not speaking out of frustration. My reality comes across as anger. That's just how I was raised. This man needs to comes to terms with the fact that his needs will never be respected or reciprocated by his current spouse. The sooner he comes to grips with that cold harsh reality the better he can plan for the future.


----------



## turnera

IMO, you are wrong. He CAN do things to change her mind. Many many cases have proved it so.


----------



## Trickster

turnera said:


> IMO, you are wrong. He CAN do things to change her mind. Many many cases have proved it so.


Do you really believe that if the OP spoke the right love language or took care of her needs, she will all of a sudden, become affectionate again?

From what it seems like, the OP was the initiated of all affection. When the affection wasn't reciprocated and never lead to mutually satisfying sex, his affection diminished and stopped...Sleeping with the son is just an easy out...


The OP's wife knows he won't D. He is still madly in love with her and hopes it will get better... He also doesn't want to be a part time parent. No matter how much it hurts, he will stay...

Even the 180 may not work... Every minute away from his wife for self improvement and detatching is time away from his son... It will just hurt the OP...

Yes, I may be projecting a little here...


----------



## Sandfly

Trickster, I saw something funny on 'cheers' this morning.

Rebecca said to the other barmaid:

"It was you who told me to try all this positive thinking stuff. I knew it wouldn't work, and it didn't!"

In your case, your attachment to your kid meant that when you did the 180, your words were saying 'I'm gonna do it!!'

And your body language was saying: 'I don't wanna do it!!'

I'm not preaching, but maybe it didn't work in your case, because you're in too deep, and your woman knew you better than you know yourself. 

Which is understandable.

It seems to only work when the person is serious, and couldn't care either way anymore.


----------



## Trickster

Sandfly said:


> Trickster, I saw something funny on 'cheers' this morning.
> 
> Rebecca said to the other barmaid:
> 
> "It was you who told me to try all this positive thinking stuff. I knew it wouldn't work, and it didn't!"
> 
> In your case, your attachment to your kid meant that when you did the 180, your words were saying 'I'm gonna do it!!'
> 
> And your body language was saying: 'I don't wanna do it!!'
> 
> I'm not preaching, but maybe it didn't work in your case, because you're in too deep, and your woman knew you better than you know yourself.
> 
> Which is understandable.
> 
> It seems to only work when the person is serious, and couldn't care either way anymore.



Exactly


I could be wrong here but I believe the OP is the same.. He can try to act like he doesn't care, act like he can move on, but his wife knows he won't leave no matter what threats he makes.. Just read some of my threads.... I and doing some of the most idiotic things to let my wife think I no longer care.... I do though...My wife will let me do anything I want...anything... She knows I am a great Dad and husband and I won't follow through with anything...it's just words to her. I will still do anything for her...even though it hurts me...

I just don't want the OP to go through this heartache for another 6 years like I am doing...nothing changed... Except that I am more in shape than ever before in my life...Even when I am away with my new interests, my mind is still on my wife and daughter.


They are my world... 


Salmonoid- Do you have siblings? Parents? Friends? Somebody you can talk to?

I bet your wife and son are your world as well...


----------



## turnera

Trickster said:


> Do you really believe that if the OP spoke the right love language or took care of her needs, she will all of a sudden, become affectionate again?


Yes, I do. Again, assuming she didn't just marry him to yield a child.

My H is the affectionate one. But if my H were to suddenly pay attention to me and meet my needs, my desire to provide affection for him would go through the roof.


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> My wife has been sleeping in the guest room with our 4yr old for 1yr and 3wks.


That's awesome. Wife and I slept with ALL of our kids 1-5.

These are what we called "golden years of parenting". 

We miss sleeping with them.....soft skin and just the warmness of these little rascals that obviated our life hehe





salmonoid1 said:


> We do not have sex and haven't had what you would consider a sex life since he was born. She doesn't touch me at all, doesn't kiss me either. Sometimes I think that the only reason she married me was to have a child. I have asked her countless times to come back to our bed but she continues to sleep in the gueatroom with him.


That's horrible, sorry to hear. 



salmonoid1 said:


> We remodeled his room with ninja turtles and all kinds of cool stuff. I thought that would be the end of it and we would have him stay in his own room since it's completion. This was not the case. She continues to stay in the guest room. She knows exactly how I feel about all of this as I have made myself VERY clear on several occasions. What should I do? Other than saying it, which I have already, how can I convince her that if it continues I will end up leaving to find someone who can fulfill my basic human need to feel loved and wanted? Should I just Leave?


Here is what I would do in your situation. In this exact order"

1. Tomorrow, go to store and buy her flowers. Just because she is your wife and you love her (tell her that). Make sure you do that occasionally. I like to do it for none birthdays/holidays for my wife...the event/obligation thingy is kind of weird to me (but I still make sure to do it even then cause that's what my wife likes).

2. Tonight/and every night going forward invite them into bed. Embrace it. If she refuses you simply go on your sons bed with them. Shove them to the side if you have to....make it happen

3. Few nights in (heck give it a week or 2).....move in on your wife from behind.....nice and slowly (even with the kid in the bad....we did that quite a bit hehe....but things clearly can't get too wild. 

I'm not talking the kind of "move" that us happy and "plenty satisfied" husbands sometimes "force" onto our wife. I'm talking romantic and intimate (maybe light a candle prior...invite her into shower......you should know the deal, you are married.

4. Schedule date night and plan something special (hike, camping, walk , maybe nice dinner (better yet spring is here, bang out the charcoal grill/picnic). SOMETHING/ANYTHING. YOU arrange with your family for childcare.

Better yet,plan a getaway for few days and surprise her (arrange family member to watch the kid out of nowhere). Key here is to do something both you and her love......not what our society forces down our throats. 

Get out there and have a little fun. Raising a child 1-5 is HARD work that can easily take a toll on both of you.

If any of the above doesn't help you get you closer to your wife and you don't spark that connection and love for one another (that I'm MORE than sure you once had)......

.....you leave. And if you choose to, I would make sure your child remains close and the biggest focus of your life.....at all cost. 

Good luck. Keep your head up and be positive. You are fighting for your life/child. Think of your body's WW2.



If it all works out for you family, I expect a nice thank you letter at the very least......cause the advice I'm giving you here is priceless (don't hesitate to send a check either....)

  

:sleeping:


----------



## Fozzy

DoF said:


> That's awesome. Wife and I slept with ALL of our kids 1-5.
> 
> These are what we called "golden years of parenting".
> 
> We miss sleeping with them.....soft skin and just the warmness of these little rascals that obviated our life hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's horrible, sorry to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I would do in your situation. In this exact order"
> 
> 1. Tomorrow, go to store and buy her flowers. Just because she is your wife and you love her (tell her that). Make sure you do that occasionally. I like to do it for none birthdays/holidays for my wife...the event/obligation thingy is kind of weird to me (but I still make sure to do it even then cause that's what my wife likes).
> 
> 2. Tonight/and every night going forward invite them into bed. Embrace it. If she refuses you simply go on your sons bed with them. Shove them to the side if you have to....make it happen
> 
> 3. Few nights in (heck give it a week or 2).....move in on your wife from behind.....nice and slowly (even with the kid in the bad....we did that quite a bit hehe....but things clearly can't get too wild.
> 
> I'm not talking the kind of "move" that us happy and "plenty satisfied" husbands sometimes "force" onto our wife. I'm talking romantic and intimate (maybe light a candle prior...invite her into shower......you should know the deal, you are married.
> 
> 4. Schedule date night and plan something special (hike, camping, walk , maybe nice dinner (better yet spring is here, bang out the charcoal grill/picnic). SOMETHING/ANYTHING. YOU arrange with your family for childcare.
> 
> Better yet,plan a getaway for few days and surprise her (arrange family member to watch the kid out of nowhere). Key here is to do something both you and her love......not what our society forces down our throats.
> 
> Get out there and have a little fun. Raising a child 1-5 is HARD work that can easily take a toll on both of you.
> 
> If any of the above doesn't help you get you closer to your wife and you don't spark that connection and love for one another (that I'm MORE than sure you once had)......
> 
> .....you leave. And if you choose to, I would make sure your child remains close and the biggest focus of your life.....at all cost.
> 
> Good luck. Keep your head up and be positive. You are fighting for your life/child. Think of your body's WW2.
> 
> 
> 
> If it all works out for you family, I expect a nice thank you letter at the very least......cause the advice I'm giving you here is priceless (don't hesitate to send a check either....)
> 
> 
> 
> :sleeping:



I've got a real hard time imagining that a woman who has avoided her husband like the plague for over a year will welcome him coming to bed with her and "making a move" with their child laying 5 inches away. Even after a bouquet of flowers.


----------



## turnera

Women are usually better harbingers of what women will and won't accept.


----------



## Fozzy

turnera said:


> Women are usually better harbingers of what women will and won't accept.


You got me there. I'm speaking as a man, and I would be creeped out.


----------



## EleGirl

DoF said:


> That's awesome. Wife and I slept with ALL of our kids 1-5.
> 
> These are what we called "golden years of parenting".
> 
> We miss sleeping with them.....soft skin and just the warmness of these little rascals that obviated our life hehe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's horrible, sorry to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is what I would do in your situation. In this exact order"
> 
> 1. Tomorrow, go to store and buy her flowers. Just because she is your wife and you love her (tell her that). Make sure you do that occasionally. I like to do it for none birthdays/holidays for my wife...the event/obligation thingy is kind of weird to me (but I still make sure to do it even then cause that's what my wife likes).
> 
> 2. Tonight/and every night going forward invite them into bed. Embrace it. If she refuses you simply go on your sons bed with them. Shove them to the side if you have to....make it happen
> 
> 3. Few nights in (heck give it a week or 2).....move in on your wife from behind.....nice and slowly (even with the kid in the bad....we did that quite a bit hehe....but things clearly can't get too wild.
> 
> I'm not talking the kind of "move" that us happy and "plenty satisfied" husbands sometimes "force" onto our wife. I'm talking romantic and intimate (maybe light a candle prior...invite her into shower......you should know the deal, you are married.
> 
> 4. Schedule date night and plan something special (hike, camping, walk , maybe nice dinner (better yet spring is here, bang out the charcoal grill/picnic). SOMETHING/ANYTHING. YOU arrange with your family for childcare.
> 
> Better yet,plan a getaway for few days and surprise her (arrange family member to watch the kid out of nowhere). Key here is to do something both you and her love......not what our society forces down our throats.
> 
> Get out there and have a little fun. Raising a child 1-5 is HARD work that can easily take a toll on both of you.
> 
> If any of the above doesn't help you get you closer to your wife and you don't spark that connection and love for one another (that I'm MORE than sure you once had)......
> 
> .....you leave. And if you choose to, I would make sure your child remains close and the biggest focus of your life.....at all cost.
> 
> Good luck. Keep your head up and be positive. You are fighting for your life/child. Think of your body's WW2.
> 
> 
> 
> If it all works out for you family, I expect a nice thank you letter at the very least......cause the advice I'm giving you here is priceless (don't hesitate to send a check either....)
> 
> 
> 
> :sleeping:


Him joining his wife and son in bed to sleep might be a way to start to re-build physical closeness. But...

In most states, if not all, having sex in the same bed where your 4 year old is sleeping is considered child abuse. A child should never be party to their parents having sex.


----------



## EleGirl

salmonoid1,

What does your wife say about the marriage? What has she said she thinks needs to be changes, fixed, etc?

While it's possible that your wife is just a cold fish who is using you, it's more likely that there is something profoundly wrong with your marriage (from her perspective) and she has given up trying to fix it.. or does not know how to express it.

What have you and her done to try to fix things? 

How much time do the two of you spend together? A couple needs to spend at least 15 hours a week together doing date-like things to maintain the love, passion and bond. That's just the two of you. How much time do the two of you spend together weekly?

Before giving up on your marriage, do some reading, work on things and even see a counselor together. Good books to start with are "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters".


----------



## norajane

One of my friends divorced because his wife became a little nuts about germs and naptimes and family or friends never being able to visit because the house had to be absolutely quiet for naptimes and bedtimes... That happened only after their second child, the one they had trouble conceiving and who was a preemie. Something about that experience triggered a deep fear in her, and she became super-mom, battling germs and light and noise, _anything _that might disturb their children. You can imagine what this did to their relationship.

If all this stuff between you started happening right after your son broke his leg, maybe that affected her in a way that drove all the sexy out of her. You said she doesn't show any kind of affection...does she show any signs of enjoying life? Is she depressed? Maybe your wife was wracked with guilt after your son broke his leg, and now can't tear herself away from him, trying to make it up to him for not protecting him. Maybe she is filled with fears and worries with no room for anything else. 

Your letter that was all about the sex you aren't having won't have the hoped-for effect on someone who is emotionally hung up on (irrational) guilt and fears for their child.

What does she say when you ask her _why _she is sleeping with your son? Maybe she's not trying to get away from you as much as she's being driven to be at his side. Maybe your perspective is entirely different from hers, as you said. I suspect, though, your letter made her less likely to talk with you about it, because you think this is a sex problem. Maybe she thinks you wouldn't understand. Maybe she's (irrationally) angry with you that you didn't protect the boy from harm.

Or I could be completely wrong. Just throwing out another perspective.


----------



## Fozzy

norajane said:


> One of my friends divorced because his wife became a little nuts about germs and naptimes and family or friends never being able to visit because the house had to be absolutely quiet for naptimes and bedtimes... That happened only after their second child, the one they had trouble conceiving and who was a preemie. Something about that experience triggered a deep fear in her, and she became super-mom, battling germs and light and noise, _anything _that might disturb their children. You can imagine what this did to their relationship.
> 
> If all this stuff between you started happening right after your son broke his leg, maybe that affected her in a way that drove all the sexy out of her. You said she doesn't show any kind of affection...does she show any signs of enjoying life? Is she depressed? Maybe your wife was wracked with guilt after your son broke his leg, and now can't tear herself away from him, trying to make it up to him for not protecting him. Maybe she is filled with fears and worries with no room for anything else.
> 
> Your letter that was all about the sex you aren't having won't have the hoped-for effect on someone who is emotionally hung up on (irrational) guilt and fears for their child.
> 
> What does she say when you ask her _why _she is sleeping with your son? *Maybe she's not trying to get away from you as much as she's being driven to be at his side.* Maybe your perspective is entirely different from hers, as you said. I suspect, though, your letter made her less likely to talk with you about it, because you think this is a sex problem. Maybe she thinks you wouldn't understand.
> 
> Or I could be completely wrong. Just throwing out another perspective.


It's possible, but if that were the case, wouldn't she be bringing the child to their bed, rather than fleeing to the child's bed? My wife had some attachment issues with all three of our children, but the net result was that the kids slept in OUR bed, rather than the other way around.


----------



## norajane

Fozzy said:


> It's possible, but if that were the case, wouldn't she be bringing the child to their bed, rather than fleeing to the child's bed? My wife had some attachment issues with all three of our children, but the net result was that the kids slept in OUR bed, rather than the other way around.


I have no idea what would be the case in her case. I don't know what she would or wouldn't be doing. People don't all act and react the same to things. They're not the same emotional make-up. 

But it's worth exploring whatever it is, since he says they had a fine sex life up until their son's broken bone. There's _something _in that.


----------



## Trickster

salmonoid1 said:


> My wife has been sleeping in the guest room with our 4yr old for 1yr and 3wks. *We do not have sex and haven't had what you would consider a sex life since he was born. *


----------



## Trickster

turnera said:


> My H is the affectionate one. But if my H were to suddenly pay attention to me and meet my needs, my desire to provide affection for him would go through the roof.


You seem like a normal, rational, logical woman...There is another reason Salmnoid's wife if avoiding him.

I wish he would post a little more.

I think he works very hard, rushes home to make dinner most nights, helps with some chores, gets on TAM while his wife gives his son a bath, and spends the rest of the evening doing family things and being with his son....


I think Salmonoid- was doing his best to provide for his wife's needs and she was never affectionate in return and it rarely progressed to sex. I may have misread something. I think he just stopped being affectionate because the marriage became sexless


----------



## DoF

Fozzy said:


> I've got a real hard time imagining that a woman who has avoided her husband like the plague for over a year will welcome him coming to bed with her and "making a move" with their child laying 5 inches away. Even after a bouquet of flowers.


The theme of my post is pretty simple.

Do anything and anything within YOUR control.

If that doesn't work, NOTHING ever will and this relationship is over. This woman has 0 love for OP if above doesn't work and going on in a relationship with her is completely worthless.

Also I don't believe on dwelling on the past. Move on, get over it and focus on goal at hand. The entire "she hasn't done this and that crap" is worthless IMO. It does NOTHING but fuel the relationship to go downhill even faster.

The goal is to find out if the wife still has the love and affection for her husband. Sometimes we get caught up in life and forget about these important things (it happens to best of us).

I believe the steps I outlined will go a LONG way for OP to show love/affection and SHOULD enable his wife to show it as well (if there is any).

Not sure if you noticed but it also covers the possibility of OP not doing enough from his end (we don't know any of that or how his wife feels etc).

Knocking out 2 birds with one stone here.....


----------



## DoF

EleGirl said:


> Him joining his wife and son in bed to sleep might be a way to start to re-build physical closeness. But...
> 
> In most states, if not all, having sex in the same bed where your 4 year old is sleeping is considered child abuse. A child should never be party to their parents having sex.


We will agree to disagree. Wife and I think it was thrilling and somewhat "spontaneous" (IMO relationship need this sort of thing, just something new, doesn't have to be on the bed with the child, just an example). We didn't do it often, but it happened. Most of the time the child was removed into crib/bed etc.

Child abuse? Come on now....I think you are taking my statement to the extreme. 

We didn't do it often and NEVER when the kid was awake of course.

If OP has an issue with it, once he knows intimacy is 100%.....remove the child.

Simple

Again, introduce something new in the intimacy department (whatever that might be). What I said was just a simple example.


----------



## sinnister

turnera said:


> Yes, I do. Again, assuming she didn't just marry him to yield a child.
> 
> My H is the affectionate one. But if my H were to suddenly pay attention to me and meet my needs, my desire to provide affection for him would go through the roof.


I've read a ton of posts here and spent an irrational amount of time reading about feelings against a pink background. And in all that time I am confident enough to say that you are not the typical cold wife. 

Your thought process is measured but always holds truth. There is always rationality behind it. Some spouses are NOT rational. 

Of course you are correct in saying if he finds the right combination of being sweet, manly, attentive etc etc etc he may be able to win her back. But we're assuming he's not sick of jumping through hoops at this point. Marriage is hard, but it shouldn't be brain surgery hard.


----------



## ReformedHubby

sinnister said:


> Of course you are correct in saying if he finds the right combination of being sweet, manly, attentive etc etc etc he may be able to win her back. But we're assuming he's not sick of jumping through hoops at this point. Marriage is hard, but it shouldn't be brain surgery hard.


:iagree:

The one thing I don't understand about these situations is how come its acceptable for his spouse to shut him out and not tell him why? The burden should not be on him to keep guessing and trying different things to hopefully make it better. Why can't they just sit down like adults and discuss it? I get that he took vows and that when possible you should always fight for your marriage. But she has to help him help her if this thing is going to work. Silence, or "I don't know" doesn't really help.


----------



## DoF

ReformedHubby said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The one thing I don't understand about these situations is how come its acceptable for his spouse to shut him out and not tell him why? The burden should not be on him to keep guessing and trying different things to hopefully make it better. Why can't they just sit down like adults and discuss it? I get that he took vows and that when possible you should always fight for your marriage. But she has to help him help her if this thing is going to work. Silence, or "I don't know" doesn't really help.


I agree, but OP clearly stated that he has already done that # of times and is well on the way to tipping over the edge.

Communication is not working so he is very limited to what else he can do.

I think what I laid out are good actions to take as a LAST resort, but that's just me.


----------



## turnera

In a perfect world, that would be great. But each one of us comes to a marriage with our own baggage, issues, etc. Lots of people can't or won't talk about issues, lots of people aren't even self-aware enough to be able to talk about issues, and lots of people are the type who hold grudges or blame others or stay mad. Who knows which group she's in? Not to mention, we only get his side of the story so we really have no clue WHY she has withdrawn.


----------



## Mr The Other

ReformedHubby said:


> :iagree:
> 
> The one thing I don't understand about these situations is how come its acceptable for his spouse to shut him out and not tell him why? The burden should not be on him to keep guessing and trying different things to hopefully make it better. Why can't they just sit down like adults and discuss it? I get that he took vows and that when possible you should always fight for your marriage. But she has to help him help her if this thing is going to work. Silence, or "I don't know" doesn't really help.


Working out who is to blame is pointless, other than in extreme situations. It is the person who posts on here who can be advised, not the other person.

And, I do not like to write this, but talk is often just bollocks. Talk, plan, hear excuses, repeat....


----------



## EleGirl

DoF said:


> We will agree to disagree. Wife and I think it was thrilling and somewhat "spontaneous" (IMO relationship need this sort of thing, just something new, doesn't have to be on the bed with the child, just an example). We didn't do it often, but it happened. Most of the time the child was removed into crib/bed etc.
> 
> Child abuse? Come on now....I think you are taking my statement to the extreme.
> 
> We didn't do it often and NEVER when the kid was awake of course.
> 
> If OP has an issue with it, once he knows intimacy is 100%.....remove the child.
> 
> Simple
> 
> Again, introduce something new in the intimacy department (whatever that might be). What I said was just a simple example.


When I was in high school I knew a kid whose parents did this in a shared bed (when he was younger). Apparently he was often woken by their sex but pretended to be asleep so as to avoid the issue. He hated his parents because of this.. it was very uncomfortable for him.

In more recent years I know of cases where children were removed from the home for this very thing and similar activities. Children very often know what their parents are up to. They are not stupid. Then they talk to others, like teachers, about it.


----------



## tulsy

salmonoid1 said:


> ..... I would never divorce you, not ever. Even if the ability to have sex was taken from either of us and I knew that my marriage would remain sexless I would never leave you. My love for you is not based on whether I have sex with you....


So why would she ever change? You've told her it matters, but not enough for you to *ever* leave her. No real reason for her to change, which is exactly what happened...no change.

And is that even true? I mean, aren't you actually considering leaving her; contemplating if it's even worth the effort? If you are, then you didn't really "lay it on the line", you just whined about the sitch, and in the same breath told her, "...but it's okay, cause I would never divorce you, ever!"

Think about it. 

I would alter that approach, for sure.


----------



## salmonoid1

Trickster said:


> You seem like a normal, rational, logical woman...There is another reason Salmnoid's wife if avoiding him.
> 
> I wish he would post a little more.
> 
> I think he works very hard, rushes home to make dinner most nights, helps with some chores, gets on TAM while his wife gives his son a bath, and spends the rest of the evening doing family things and being with his son....
> 
> 
> I think Salmonoid- was doing his best to provide for his wife's needs and she was never affectionate in return and it rarely progressed to sex. I may have misread something. I think he just stopped being affectionate because the marriage became sexless


Spot on.


----------



## DoF

EleGirl said:


> When I was in high school I knew a kid whose parents did this in a shared bed (when he was younger). Apparently he was often woken by their sex but pretended to be asleep so as to avoid the issue. He hated his parents because of this.. it was very uncomfortable for him.
> 
> In more recent years I know of cases where children were removed from the home for this very thing and similar activities. Children very often know what their parents are up to. They are not stupid. Then they talk to others, like teachers, about it.


LMAO

I assure you, my children were not awake. And even if they "pretended" chances are they don't remember anything past age 4-5. 

We mostly did it when they were babies, at around 4-5 they get little too big and take up too much space on a bed.

Again, I think you are taking what I said to an extreme, assuming worse case scenario.

Take a little leap of faith in me ehh?


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> Spot on.


And that's exactly what I assumed in my thread. As a resentment form your wife's actions you might have forgot about your 50% that YOU need to take care off.

All of my steps cover that and should go a long way to AT LEAST make sure what YOU are doing is fine.

We can all assume this is BOTH of your faults (in some way shape or form and not just HERs). That would be little extreme.

And even if is ALL her fault, doing little work YOURSELF will go a long way to see if there is ANYTHING left.

Last resort, if you will.


----------



## salmonoid1

My wife works full time, we both do, for the same company, she can't even manage to go out to lunch with me. Affection and sex sucked long before my son broke his leg, this is why I pretty much gave up on all the special treatment.

This morning I get a naked text from her....WTF? I haven't really talked to her for the last week and a half. Maybe she is realizing that at I'm at the end of my rope. I actually though it was a bit insensitive.


----------



## tom67

salmonoid1 said:


> My wife works full time, we both do, for the same company, she can't even manage to go out to lunch with me. Affection and sex sucked long before my son broke his leg, this is why I pretty much gave up on all the special treatment.
> 
> This morning I get a naked text from her....WTF? I haven't really talked to her for the last week and a half. Maybe she is realizing that at I'm at the end of my rope. I actually though it was a bit insensitive.


Sal you should be at the end of your rope.
Have one last straight to the point emotionless talk with her.
Divorce has to be on the table this time.
Another one that may wake her up is asking her if you can go out and get your manly needs elsewhere.
Point is she has to know you are serious that you will move on.
I don't see another option.


----------



## VermisciousKnid

salmonoid1 said:


> My wife works full time, we both do, for the same company, she can't even manage to go out to lunch with me. Affection and sex sucked long before my son broke his leg, this is why I pretty much gave up on all the special treatment.
> 
> This morning I get a naked text from her....WTF? I haven't really talked to her for the last week and a half. Maybe she is realizing that at I'm at the end of my rope. I actually though it was a bit insensitive.


It sounds like she's testing you. If you respond positively to her sext, she will lose even more respect for you because you are easily manipulated. 

It is disrespectful of her. She's assuming that there are no feelings behind your recent behavior. Yet another woman who assumes that because men aren't emotional they have no emotions.


----------



## turnera

I would start that conversation by asking her to describe her life now, and whether it's what she wants. Get her talking so you can understand her point of view. Odds are good you are both full of the usual resentments that creep into marriages with kids, and they can be solved. But you have to start talking.


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> My wife works full time, we both do, for the same company, she can't even manage to go out to lunch with me. Affection and sex sucked long before my son broke his leg, this is why I pretty much gave up on all the special treatment..


I will repeat....

Work on yourself and do your best from YOUR end. Her end, you can't control. And if she doesn't address her end soon......chances are you will be gone.



salmonoid1 said:


> This morning I get a naked text from her....WTF? I haven't really talked to her for the last week and a half. Maybe she is realizing that at I'm at the end of my rope. I actually though it was a bit insensitive.


That is extremely weird....wow

:scratchhead:

How do you even reply to that?


----------



## WorkingOnMe

respond to the text: the last thing I need is a tease from a woman who's supposedly my wife but won't even sleep with me.


----------



## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> I will repeat....
> 
> Work on yourself and do your best from YOUR end. Her end, you can't control. And if she doesn't address her end soon......chances are you will be gone.
> 
> 
> 
> That is extremely weird....wow
> 
> :scratchhead:
> 
> How do you even reply to that?


I replied HOTT! well.... because she is....smoking hot. It's really hard to look at her not just jump her bones, it really sucks. I am going to ask her later, at home, what exactly her intentions were and if she had given any thought our current situation when she sent that. I guess, if anything, the "sext " will open up some dialogue and of course there would be now way to resist any sexual advancments she might make.


----------



## salmonoid1

salmonoid1 said:


> I replied HOTT! well.... because she is....smoking hot. It's really hard to look at her not just jump her bones, it really sucks. I am going to ask her later, at home, what exactly her intentions were and if she had given any thought our current situation when she sent that. I guess, if anything, the "sext " will open up some dialogue and of course there would be now way to resist any sexual advancments she might make.


Jesus, I just read that back to myself. She really knows how to play me. I'm weak.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

You could reply asking if that was meant for you or someone else since you don't really get to see the real thing anymore.


----------



## Trickster

tom67 said:


> Sal you should be at the end of your rope.
> 
> 
> Have one last straight to the point emotionless talk with her.
> Divorce has to be on the table this time.
> Another one that may wake her up is asking her if you can go out and get your manly needs elsewhere.
> Point is she has to know you are serious that you will move on.
> I don't see another option.



This may seem like a good idea. When this came up with my wife and I, she said it was a great idea for me to have a lover... She realized she had no attraction for me and was just fine if I had sex elsewhere....We both signed an open marriage contract and a friend witnessed as well. NOTHING changed.... I feel like krap now cause that's not what I really wanted...

There has to be a better way...

Sal's wife may start having sex again like my wife, but it may be emotionless...
Something Else Is going on...

Sal is thinking about D, but it won't happen...They work for the same company...That would be a disaster...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

salmonoid1 said:


> I am going to ask her later, at home, what exactly her intentions were and if she had given any thought our current situation when she sent that.


Yes, definitely ask her why she sent it. But then shut up. Don't tie it to your current situation. Like I said, you laid all the blame on her in your letter, so you need to avoid a conversation that brings that up again.

Ask her why she sent it and then listen. Ask clarifying questions. Don't defend yourself, but rather really try to understand where she is coming from. And then go and think about it.


----------



## coffee4me

WorkingOnMe said:


> respond to the text: the last thing I need is a tease from a woman who's supposedly my wife but won't even sleep with me.


I don't think a snarky remark will add anything positive to the situation. If she got a remark like that on a first attempt to bring some sexuality back to the relationship. I'm quite sure there wouldn't be a second attempt.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

coffee4me said:


> I don't think a snarky remark will add anything positive to the situation. If she got a remark like that on a first attempt to bring some sexuality back to the relationship. I'm quite sure there wouldn't be a second attempt.


Maybe, maybe not. I don't think pretending it's all ok is good at all though.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

WorkingOnMe said:


> Maybe, maybe not. I don't think pretending it's all ok is good at all though.


I think he can hit the middle ground of not thinking all is okay without snark. An honest question about her intentions in view of her never having done this before could get some new information. If she gets defensive (and I think she could because she is embarrassed), he needs to say that he is honestly confused and looking to understand her.

I agree, no comments that imply that everything is suddenly okay. But he needs her to start talking if he has any hope of fixing this. If she refuses, that is useful information as well.


----------



## coffee4me

Tall Average Guy said:


> *I think he can hit the middle ground of not thinking all is okay without snark* .


:iagree:


----------



## Row Jimmy

Lack of affection and having a wife who doesn't seem to care about meeting your needs may eventually sink your battleship. 

But I like the naked text. Where there is digital nudity and flirtation there is hope! :smthumbup: 

That text was her showing some effort to meet your needs. She sent you a spark.... so try to burst it into a flame if you can. You two were good together once and you can be again. 

Hang in there!


----------



## norajane

Row Jimmy said:


> Lack of affection and having a wife who doesn't seem to care about meeting your needs may eventually sink your battleship.
> 
> But I like the naked text. Where there is digital nudity and flirtation there is hope! :smthumbup:
> 
> That text was her showing some effort to meet your needs. She sent you a spark.... so try to burst it into a flame if you can. You two were good together once and you can be again.
> 
> Hang in there!


I agree with this. Why spit on her gesture? Maybe that letter he wrote about all the sex they aren't having had some impact.

I wish he had written a letter that didn't talk about sex at all, but talked about how he misses the _relationship _they used to have with each other, the connection and emotional intimacy that used to fuel their desire for each other, the couple they used to be and the fun they used to have together, and his desire to work with her to build that kind of relationship back up.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

norajane said:


> I agree with this. Why spit on her gesture? Maybe that letter he wrote about all the sex they aren't having had some impact.


While I don't advocate spitting on this gesture, I am not real sure about jumping for joy about it either. I find it odd that a woman who has had no sex and really no initmacy with him in over a year suddenly texts nude pictures to him. So I can identify with feeling cautious about what the heck is going on here.


----------



## over20

Unique Username said:


> View public profile...says that it is female, long term relationship of only 2-4 years.


Now we are discriminating against each other's opinions based on how long our current relationship is.......:scratchhead:


----------



## Unique Username

over20 said:


> Now we are discriminating against each other's opinions based on how long our current relationship is.......:scratchhead:


really Over20? 

chiming in NOW? after all the baloney was done 

pages and pages ago - and after she attacked me.

why did you bother? What was your purpose in posting that?


My post was in response to WorkingOnMe who hadn't realized that she was a woman...I was stating the only information listed on her public profile.


----------



## turnera

salmonoid1 said:


> I replied HOTT! well.... because she is....smoking hot. It's really hard to look at her not just jump her bones, it really sucks. I am going to ask her later, at home, what exactly her intentions were and if she had given any thought our current situation when she sent that. I guess, if anything, the "sext " will open up some dialogue and of course there would be now way to resist any sexual advancments she might make.


I think a better response would be to come home, sweep her into your arms, give her a romantic kiss and take her breath away, pick her up, and carry her to your bedroom for a quickie - where you make sure SHE has about 5 orgasms before you take care of your needs.


----------



## Trickster

Salmonoid-

Is there a chance that your wife feels guilty for going back to work and she is fearful of losing the bond with your son so she stays with him as much as possible?

When Mrs. Salmonoid- go back to work?


----------



## sinnister

turnera said:


> I think a better response would be to come home, sweep her into your arms, give her a romantic kiss and take her breath away, pick her up, and carry her to your bedroom for a quickie - where you make sure SHE has about 5 orgasms before you take care of your needs.


Then she woke up to realize Ryan Gossling isnt her husband. C'mon Turnera this is real life. The woman has been denying him affection for over a year, wont sleep in the same bed with him and won't even take a lunch break with him!

The text was manipulative and this is pretty much hopeless. How about since she's the one who's withdrawn, SHE do the work to romance him? I know...crazy idea but he shouldn't have to do anymore reaching in this marriage. If she's just going to slap the hand away anyways he has to have enough pride and self respect to stand up to her and say "no more".

I think it would do OP a lot of good to just detach from this woman. Naked text? After not having the desire for him for over a year and then that out of the blue? I don't know my spidey senses would be tingling.


----------



## Mr The Other

sinnister said:


> Then she woke up to realize Ryan Gossling isnt her husband. C'mon Turnera this is real life. The woman has been denying him affection for over a year, wont sleep in the same bed with him and won't even take a lunch break with him!
> 
> The text was manipulative and this is pretty much hopeless. How about since she's the one who's withdrawn, SHE do the work to romance him? I know...crazy idea but he shouldn't have to do anymore reaching in this marriage. If she's just going to slap the hand away anyways he has to have enough pride and self respect to stand up to her and say "no more".
> 
> I think it would do OP a lot of good to just detach from this woman. Naked text? After not having the desire for him for over a year and then that out of the blue? I don't know my spidey senses would be tingling.


I am perhaps too generous, but such a text is a more remote way of intimacy. The real think is too scary and this is the most she felt comfortable with.


----------



## Trickster

Mr The Other said:


> I am perhaps too generous, but such a text is a more remote way of intimacy. The real think is too scary and this is the most she felt comfortable with.


A text is "safe". There was no mention of sex. Sal didn't mention if it did...Could there be a chance she knows her husband is beyond frustrated and doesn't know what to do. The text was to simply and passively open that door...


----------



## Trickster

When sex was totally non existent with my wife and I, I sent her a text... It was simple...

"I want to phuk you tonight" 


It worked

We did have sex, but there was no emotion at all. That was about the time when I first realized sex was better when I wasn't emotional about it... I treated sex with my wife like it was a ONS... There hasn't been love and emotions for a very long time...


----------



## Trickster

sinnister said:


> Then she woke up to realize Ryan Gossling isnt her husband. C'mon Turnera this is real life. The woman has been denying him affection for over a year, wont sleep in the same bed with him and won't even take a lunch break with him!
> 
> The text was manipulative and this is pretty much hopeless. How about since she's the one who's withdrawn, SHE do the work to romance him? I know...crazy idea but he shouldn't have to do anymore reaching in this marriage. If she's just going to slap the hand away anyways he has to have enough pride and self respect to stand up to her and say "no more".
> 
> I think it would do OP a lot of good to just detach from this woman. Naked text? After not having the desire for him for over a year and then that out of the blue? I don't know my spidey senses would be tingling.


At the time I was where Sal is, I did the opposite... I started to read dozens of books to improve intimacy... Several years of it and it all was a failure...there was no change..


Although.....

For a brief period, sex was there, but I wanted more...my wife was going through the motions...

I would agree to emotionally detatch.

All my wife's love went to our daughter and there was nothing for me. I never did the father daughter things because my wife was always there as a "family". 

Sal should try to do father son things without his wife. Passively give his wife time to ponder what life would be like to spend time without her husband and son... Even for a day here and there. I wish I was more assertive back then and just told my wife I wanted father daughter time...

The 180 will also help Sal. 

It helped me feel better about myself. It just didn't make my wife desire me more. Other women talk to me more now and I am much more confident..

The 180 should be the first step. IMO


----------



## salmonoid1

Trickster said:


> A text is "safe". There was no mention of sex. Sal didn't mention if it did...Could there be a chance she knows her husband is beyond frustrated and doesn't know what to do. The text was to simply and passively open that door...


I really get the feeling that she doesn't have a clue what to do with me at this point which would explain the awkwardness (is that a word) when she gets close to me.

I managed to get my brother to watch my son overnight tonight on short notice. She doesn't know. She goes to the gym right after work on Fridays. I'm not going to be home when she gets there, on purpose. Going to leave her a note to get showered, dressed, all sexy like with heels included and meet me at a local restaurant for dinner and a few drinks. Figure I'll ask her about the sext and see what she says. I'm not going to talk about the past. Going to concentrate on what we can do to move forward, how she feels about me, tell her how much I love her and see what happens. I love her and am willing to give the romance one last try, I'm good at it and it's fun for me, I just hope I'm not wasting my time.


----------



## ReformedHubby

salmonoid1 said:


> I really get the feeling that she doesn't have a clue what to do with me at this point which would explain the awkwardness (is that a word) when she gets close to me.
> 
> I managed to get my brother to watch my son overnight tonight on short notice. She doesn't know. She goes to the gym right after work on Fridays. I'm not going to be home when she gets there, on purpose. Going to leave her a note to get showered, dressed, all sexy like with heels included and meet me at a local restaurant for dinner and a few drinks. Figure I'll ask her about the sext and see what she says. I'm not going to talk about the past. Going to concentrate on what we can do to move forward, how she feels about me, tell her how much I love her and see what happens. I love her and am willing to give the romance one last try, I'm good at it and it's fun for me, I just hope I'm not wasting my time.



Good plan in my opinion. I was not in agreement with the posts that suggested that you rebuff her advance just because she wasn't there for you over the past year or so. Worst case scenario you'll still have a good evening tonight. Perhaps reminding her how things used to be will help slowly start moving things back in that direction. If it doesn't you'll still have all your options on the table.


----------



## turnera

Don't forget that, if she says she has the right to sext other men, you need to then say 'well, if you do continue it, I won't stay married to you. I don't share my wife with other men.' She NEEDS to hear that.


----------



## DoF

sinnister said:


> Then she woke up to realize Ryan Gossling isnt her husband. C'mon Turnera this is real life. The woman has been denying him affection for over a year, wont sleep in the same bed with him and won't even take a lunch break with him!
> 
> The text was manipulative and this is pretty much hopeless. How about since she's the one who's withdrawn, SHE do the work to romance him? I know...crazy idea but he shouldn't have to do anymore reaching in this marriage. If she's just going to slap the hand away anyways he has to have enough pride and self respect to stand up to her and say "no more".
> 
> I think it would do OP a lot of good to just detach from this woman. Naked text? After not having the desire for him for over a year and then that out of the blue? I don't know my spidey senses would be tingling.


Well, the thing is, we don't really know how much "reaching out" OP has actually done.



Again, my advice covers all that.


----------



## salmonoid1

turnera said:


> Don't forget that, if she says she has the right to sext other men, you need to then say 'well, if you do continue it, I won't stay married to you. I don't share my wife with other men.' She NEEDS to hear that.


She sent the sext to me. I am not aware of her sexting anybody else.


----------



## turnera

Oops, sorry, wrong thread! Ignore me!


----------



## Mr The Other

Another good thing is that you are rewarding her making some effort.  Good luck.


----------



## Hicks

Don't ask her why she sent the text. That would be a huge mistake. 

She will not be able to answer the question. And her struggle to answer it will dig her deeper into the non sexual hole.

What you should do is proceed AS IF this was her invitation for some great sex with you (which it was)... She gave you this green light and she is probably embarrassed about it, and she certainly does not want to verbally dissect it. She wants you to KNOW WHY SHE SENT IT.

What you should do now is text her and say "I have a surprise for you tonight".... That's it.

Now, it is still a tricky slope for you for tonight. As a woman, she was feeling sexual yesterday for a brief moment, and she texted you. Your sexual desire meter went through the roof and will stay there until you release it. Her's does not work that way. She had a fleeting moment of sexual desire and it's now long gone. She's not all AMPED UP FOR SEX like you are.

The worst thing a man can do is get wrapped up in his own desire for sex, then just go through the motions of taking wife out for dinner with the expectation of sex at the end....

You have to manage your desires and go in with a plan. Keep then night fun and flirty. Make your move at home without asking. But know what you will do if she rejects you sexually after the date night (which she PROBABLY WILL as a test to see if you love her). And what you need to do is react with calm, controlled but obvious displeasure. State something like that "Things are going to change around here"... And then refuse to give into her sexually.

You need to balance to shift in your marriage where you are secure and confident of where things need to go, and allowing her the choice to go there with you or stay in the broken, non functioning, unfulfilling.


----------



## DoF

Hicks said:


> Don't ask her why she sent the text. That would be a huge mistake.
> 
> She will not be able to answer the question. And her struggle to answer it will dig her deeper into the non sexual hole.
> 
> What you should do is proceed AS IF this was her invitation for some great sex with you (which it was)... She gave you this green light and she is probably embarrassed about it, and she certainly does not want to verbally dissect it. She wants you to KNOW WHY SHE SENT IT.
> 
> What you should do now is text her and say "I have a surprise for you tonight".... That's it.


I really want to agree with this but my brain tells me that MONTHS of no intimacy followed by "sexting" is simply childish and immature.

I wouldn't "text" her back.....but I also don't text at all (or check "texts" on my phone.

As a woman, she needs to communicate with you face to face like an adult.

That was just childish...

But I do agree that talking about it might be harmful (to an extent).

IMO OP has communication issues, rewarding this behavior will NOT make things better/help IMO.



Hicks said:


> Now, it is still a tricky slope for you for tonight. As a woman, she was feeling sexual yesterday for a brief moment, and she texted you. Your sexual desire meter went through the roof and will stay there until you release it. Her's does not work that way. She had a fleeting moment of sexual desire and it's now long gone. She's not all AMPED UP FOR SEX like you are.
> 
> The worst thing a man can do is get wrapped up in his own desire for sex, then just go through the motions of taking wife out for dinner with the expectation of sex at the end....
> 
> You have to manage your desires and go in with a plan. Keep then night fun and flirty. Make your move at home without asking. But know what you will do if she rejects you sexually after the date night (which she PROBABLY WILL as a test to see if you love her). And what you need to do is react with calm, controlled but obvious displeasure. State something like that "Things are going to change around here"... And then refuse to give into her sexually.
> 
> You need to balance to shift in your marriage where you are secure and confident of where things need to go, and allowing her the choice to go there with you or stay in the broken, non functioning, unfulfilling.


I like this BUT....personally, I wouldn't try to make a move on her after dinner etc. 

Tonights dinner should simply be a discussion about what went wrong past few months and caused her to be so distant/unloving etc (again, under assumption that OP has done HIS part, we still don't know that.......)

She has choosen to not be a loving wife. Has shown 0 desire to not only be intimate but satisfy her husband and make sure he is happy.

This is a HUGE issue that needs to be discussed. 

What I laid out initially would cover his end, but it should certainly proceed with this sort of discussion (regardless of success).

Becoming distant is like a tug war. One denies, the other follows........next thing you know it's months and love/intimacy is completely gone.

One has to take steps and be loving etc in the face of complete rejection/lack of intimacy etc. 

Relationship is 50/50. So I will ask again. OP, have you done your share past couple of months or have you became like your wife?

What exact steps have you taken to do your part?


----------



## Trickster

Then QUOTE=Hicks;8027730]Don't ask her why she sent the text. That would be a huge mistake. 

She will not be able to answer the question. And her struggle to answer it will dig her deeper into the non sexual hole.

What you should do is proceed AS IF this was her invitation for some great sex with you (which it was)... She gave you this green light and she is probably embarrassed about it, and she certainly does not want to verbally dissect it. She wants you to KNOW WHY SHE SENT IT.

What you should do now is text her and say "I have a surprise for you tonight".... That's it.

Now, it is still a tricky slope for you for tonight. As a woman, she was feeling sexual yesterday for a brief moment, and she texted you. Your sexual desire meter went through the roof and will stay there until you release it. Her's does not work that way. She had a fleeting moment of sexual desire and it's now long gone. She's not all AMPED UP FOR SEX like you are.

The worst thing a man can do is get wrapped up in his own desire for sex, then just go through the motions of taking wife out for dinner with the expectation of sex at the end....

You have to manage your desires and go in with a plan. Keep then night fun and flirty. Make your move at home without asking. But know what you will do if she rejects you sexually after the date night (which she PROBABLY WILL as a test to see if you love her). And what you need to do is react with calm, controlled but obvious displeasure. State something like that "Things are going to change around here"... And then refuse to give into her sexually.

You need to balance to shift in your marriage where you are secure and confident of where things need to go, and allowing her the choice to go there with you or stay in the broken, non functioning, unfulfilling.[/QUOTE]







Agree with Hicks... Don't mention the sent. Focus on moving forward like you said. Try not to think about the past several sexless years. I know that will be hard.

I was so horney and wrapped up in sex that I did all the wrong things. I let my wife know I wanted sex and she just complied... I wish I could go back and do that differently. That was before TAM..

Salmonoid-

Take it slow...more than likely, it will all be awkward... You were the one who lead the relationship to begin with. You will be the one to continue to lead...

I am assuming that I'll get along in most other areas in the marriage?

If it were me, I would take the sex if she offered... That's just me though. It might be better to wait until the morning... Your wife has to know how Theuch you want sex... Don't let it be about sex as much as you want.

Instead of saying " things are going to change" say " I want to get back what we had before. I want to work on that together"

Then, if that doesn't work. The stop being Mr. Nice Guy... It won't be pretty and you will feel like an A-hole... Tyr not to go there. I hurt myself way more than my wife..


----------



## DoF

I would simply not be intimate with my wife until I got to the bottom of what went wrong.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

So I take it that means there was so sex or even discussion last night.


----------



## salmonoid1

Hicks said:


> Don't ask her why she sent the text. That would be a huge mistake.
> 
> She will not be able to answer the question. And her struggle to answer it will dig her deeper into the non sexual hole.
> 
> What you should do is proceed AS IF this was her invitation for some great sex with you (which it was)... She gave you this green light and she is probably embarrassed about it, and she certainly does not want to verbally dissect it. She wants you to KNOW WHY SHE SENT IT.
> 
> What you should do now is text her and say "I have a surprise for you tonight".... That's it.
> 
> Now, it is still a tricky slope for you for tonight. As a woman, she was feeling sexual yesterday for a brief moment, and she texted you. Your sexual desire meter went through the roof and will stay there until you release it. Her's does not work that way. She had a fleeting moment of sexual desire and it's now long gone. She's not all AMPED UP FOR SEX like you are.
> 
> The worst thing a man can do is get wrapped up in his own desire for sex, then just go through the motions of taking wife out for dinner with the expectation of sex at the end....
> 
> You have to manage your desires and go in with a plan. Keep then night fun and flirty. Make your move at home without asking. But know what you will do if she rejects you sexually after the date night (which she PROBABLY WILL as a test to see if you love her). And what you need to do is react with calm, controlled but obvious displeasure. State something like that "Things are going to change around here"... And then refuse to give into her sexually.
> 
> You need to balance to shift in your marriage where you are secure and confident of where things need to go, and allowing her the choice to go there with you or stay in the broken, non functioning, unfulfilling.


OK, I'll take your advice and leave the sext part out sounds like a good idea. I didn't think of it that way. 

Honestly, at this point, it wouldn't bother me so much if we didn't have sex tonight. I'm more interested in reconnecting and trying to get our marriage and communication back to what it used to be. I think if we can figure that out the sexual desire on her end will hopefully return. Like I've stated already, the romance part is easy for me so if it seems to be helping I will continue to do it. My parents will be married 50 years this November and I've been watching my father do it all my life. Seeing the look on my mothers face as a child when she would recieve flowers or a special, "for no reason gift" from my father definitly had a big impact on how I like to treat my wife.


----------



## Trickster

DoF said:


> One has to take steps and be loving etc in the face of complete rejection/lack of intimacy etc.
> 
> Relationship is 50/50. So I will ask again. OP, have you done your share past couple of months or have you became like your wife?
> 
> What exact steps have you taken to do your part?


I didn't like this at first DoF...you keep telling Salmonoid- to do his part... I think he did for a long time. Then he just gave up.... I definitely understand if he did...

I myself tried so hard to do my part and it never worked at all... I just didn't give it enough time. I gave up after a few weeks. Then try something different for a few weeks. Gave up as well... That went on for several years...

Salmonoid- go back to your romantic self you used to be for a few months like DoF said...Then see what happens... Its been sexless for a long time whats a couple more months... Then you know you made the effort...


----------



## Hicks

I can't disagree with the advice to not even try for sex...... That would be a step to show her that he is romancing her to make her happy instead of romancing her to make himself happy.

But, since she sent the sext, she clearly invited him to make a move, so I would certainly consider using that to push the sexless issue.

So it goes like this. HE makes a move, she agrees to have sex... This is a step in the right direction for them to build on. HE makes a move, she rejects him. This opens the door for him to reclaim his manhood so to speak.

These problems are hard to solve. But discussion about why she is rejecting him is the one thing that cannot work.

The basic gameplan should be for him to reintroduce fun into her / their maritial life... While at the same time not being a doormat who gives but never receives.


----------



## DoF

Trickster said:


> I didn't like this at first DoF...you keep telling Salmonoid- to do his part... I think he did for a long time. Then he just gave up.... I definitely understand if he did...


Based on his first post, there was not much about his part.

So to me, covering what's within his control and making sure he is doing it is #1.



Trickster said:


> I myself tried so hard to do my part and it never worked at all... I just didn't give it enough time. I gave up after a few weeks. Then try something different for a few weeks. Gave up as well... That went on for several years...


OK so at that point, it's over. You have a woman that does not love you and it simply doesn't make sense to continue relationship.



Trickster said:


> Salmonoid- go back to your romantic self you used to be for a few months like DoF said...Then see what happens... Its been sexless for a long time whats a couple more months... Then you know you made the effort...


IMO, this is the key.

Rather than focus on what partener is doing wrong, work HARD Yourself.

What OP is going thru is similar to WW2 of human kind. He is fighting for his life/family/children.

To just take on the same role as his wife would be the biggest mistake he can possibly make.

2 wrongs NEVER make a right. And becoming a person like his wife simply makes things SO much worse for the relationship.


----------



## Hicks

salmonoid1 said:


> Honestly, at this point, it wouldn't bother me so much if we didn't have sex tonight. *I'm more interested in reconnecting and trying to get our marriage and communication back to what it used to be.* I think if we can figure that out the sexual desire on her end will hopefully return. Like I've stated already, the romance part is easy for me so if it seems to be helping I will continue to do it. My parents will be married 50 years this November and I've been watching my father do it all my life. Seeing the look on my mothers face as a child when she would recieve flowers or a special, "for no reason gift" from my father definitly had a big impact on how I like to treat my wife.


What's in bold, that's what you should say to her tonight, as the reason you brought her out. Delcare it. Be excited and enthused about the idea. And then execute it going forward. Don't make it about sex...

I see no harm in investing some time trying to reconnect and reestablish romance before you start becoming more "harsh" with her.

You're way better off establishing these "theories" of why you are in a sexless marriage, and trying to fix what you think is wrong, while adjusting on the fly... That is better than asking her why things are bad... Women hate that. They have an expectation that you can read them and know what is wrong and fix it without their approval or permission.


----------



## DoF

Hicks said:


> I can't disagree with the advice to not even try for sex...... That would be a step to show her that he is romancing her to make her happy instead of romancing her to make himself happy.
> 
> But, since she sent the sext, she clearly invited him to make a move, so I would certainly consider using that to push the sexless issue.
> 
> So it goes like this. HE makes a move, she agrees to have sex... This is a step in the right direction for them to build on. HE makes a move, she rejects him. This opens the door for him to reclaim his manhood so to speak.
> 
> These problems are hard to solve. But discussion about why she is rejecting him is the one thing that cannot work.
> 
> The basic gameplan should be for him to reintroduce fun into her / their maritial life... While at the same time not being a doormat who gives but never receives.


Again, with my first post I assumed "OP has done NOTHING to help the situation".

Those steps will go a long way to find if this woman loves him. If any of that doesn't work........it's time for divorce, simple as that. 

BY HER ACTIONS, she does NOT love OP (based on what he said). So my only solution was to show her how much OP loves her. Nothing less, nothing more.

Discussion about why she has done that needs to happen and also about lack of communication.

As of right now, this is discussion she should be having with him AS WELL. 

I feel that both OP and wife are as guilty, so this is NOT ALL on her (IMO).

Intimacy and making it seem like "it's all good" is simply ignoring the issues at hand.

Sorry


----------



## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> I really want to agree with this but my brain tells me that MONTHS of no intimacy followed by "sexting" is simply childish and immature.
> 
> I wouldn't "text" her back.....but I also don't text at all (or check "texts" on my phone.
> 
> As a woman, she needs to communicate with you face to face like an adult.
> 
> That was just childish...
> 
> But I do agree that talking about it might be harmful (to an extent).
> 
> IMO OP has communication issues, rewarding this behavior will NOT make things better/help IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> I like this BUT....personally, I wouldn't try to make a move on her after dinner etc.
> 
> Tonights dinner should simply be a discussion about what went wrong past few months and caused her to be so distant/unloving etc (again, under assumption that OP has done HIS part, we still don't know that.......)
> 
> She has choosen to not be a loving wife. Has shown 0 desire to not only be intimate but satisfy her husband and make sure he is happy.
> 
> This is a HUGE issue that needs to be discussed.
> 
> What I laid out initially would cover his end, but it should certainly proceed with this sort of discussion (regardless of success).
> 
> Becoming distant is like a tug war. One denies, the other follows........next thing you know it's months and love/intimacy is completely gone.
> 
> One has to take steps and be loving etc in the face of complete rejection/lack of intimacy etc.
> 
> Relationship is 50/50. So I will ask again. OP, have you done your share past couple of months or have you became like your wife?
> 
> What exact steps have you taken to do your part?


I have become like my wife and I DON"T LIKE IT. I've become distant, and just stopped trying, romantically. The anger set in and it's been nothing but an argument since. This is partly why I have reached out to you all. As previously stated, I haven't even really talked to her at all for the last week or two and I can't live like that anymore. I have a gut feeling that she could be ready to stop all the anger as well. I think we've BOTH have reached our breaking point and it's either sink or swim. So, I make my move tonight. I make one last ditch effort and see what happens. That's reall all I can do.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

She probably sent the text for reassurance that she still has you on the hook. It was a direct response to you ignoring her. Ignore her more and she'll chase. Chase her and she'll run.


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> I have become like my wife and I DON"T LIKE IT. I've become distant, and just stopped trying, romantically. The anger set in and it's been nothing but an argument since. This is partly why I have reached out to you all. As previously stated, I haven't even really talked to her at all for the last week or two and I can't live like that anymore. I have a gut feeling that she could be ready to stop all the anger as well. I think we've BOTH have reached our breaking point and it's either sink or swim. So, I make my move tonight. I make one last ditch effort and see what happens. That's reall all I can do.


That's what I assumed. 

Forget about the date...cancel it. Tell her something came up etc.....and of course apologize.

FIRST AND FOREMOST> Follow my steps.....

You cannot start having serious discussion about the issues with her when you have been no different.

Sorry, work on yourself and make sure your 50% is completely covered.

And once you do....I guarantee you that her 50% will come back into play.



At some point you 2 do need to have a lessons learned discussion and communicate about it etc (but that's a bit after things smooth over). It's too soon for that right now IMO. 

^^ not sure if you notice but my confidence of my first post is pretty high.......trust me on this. When she feels your love, if she loves you....you WILL get love back from her.

Just put your anger/bitterness to the side. Smile a lot and be kind and loving.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Hicks said:


> But, since she sent the sext, she clearly invited him to make a move, so I would certainly consider using that to push the sexless issue.
> 
> So it goes like this. HE makes a move, she agrees to have sex... This is a step in the right direction for them to build on. HE makes a move, she rejects him. This opens the door for him to reclaim his manhood so to speak.


I would not initiate at all. My fear in reacting to the text is that it shows his weakness. She can manipulate him with just a little sex. He is extremely unhappy, wants intimacy of any sort and has made his thoughts very clear. She has kept silent. 

But she sends one text and suddenly he is taking her out to a great dinner and jumping up and down like a little boy who was told he might get a new toy if he is good.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Go out to dinner. Alone. Start staying out late. Make her wonder. Stop giving signals that you wish she would be with you. The more you detach the more she'll chase.


----------



## DoF

WorkingOnMe said:


> She probably sent the text for reassurance that she still has you on the hook. It was a direct response to you ignoring her. Ignore her more and she'll chase. Chase her and she'll run.


I would be careful with this. OP clearly stated that he is as guilty as his wife.

He hasn't taken any steps to show his wife love/intimacy etc neither. 

Above would completely damage their relationship further IMO.

Step 1, do your 50% pronto. Rest will fall into place in time....


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> I would be careful with this. OP clearly stated that he is as guilty as his wife.
> 
> He hasn't taken any steps to show his wife love/intimacy etc neither.
> 
> Above would completely damage their relationship further IMO.


But that failure occurred after she withdrew. He attempted to continue those actions and she rejected him. I don't see that as being just as guilty as his wife (though there may be other actions he took that have pushed her away).


----------



## WorkingOnMe

DoF said:


> I would be careful with this. OP clearly stated that he is as guilty as his wife.
> 
> 
> 
> He hasn't taken any steps to show his wife love/intimacy etc neither.
> 
> 
> 
> Above would completely damage their relationship further IMO.



I disagree. Show her the love and 6 months from now nothing will have changed. Make her uncomfortable and she'll start to chase. He's already starting a 180 lite. And a week into it she's texting naked pictures. He needs to do more of that.


----------



## DoF

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would not initiate at all. My fear in reacting to the text is that it shows his weakness. She can manipulate him with just a little sex. He is extremely unhappy, wants intimacy of any sort and has made his thoughts very clear. She has kept silent.
> 
> But she sends one text and suddenly he is taking her out to a great dinner and jumping up and down like a little boy who was told he might get a new toy if he is good.


I think you guys have to give his wife little credit.

After weeks (if not months) of complete breakdown in communication and lack of action from either side....SHE is the one that took action FIRST.

That's a positive sign, any way you look at it. 

One has to fix themselves BEFORE they ask others IMO.


----------



## DoF

WorkingOnMe said:


> I disagree. Show her the love and 6 months from now nothing will have changed. Make her uncomfortable and she'll start to chase. He's already starting a 180 lite. And a week into it she's texting naked pictures. He needs to do more of that.


SO what you are saying is "don't show any love towards your partner".

Completely disagree. That's a reciepy for complete disaster.

His wife can VERY easily be at a point where she can say "screw this, it's over or go off with another man...."

Sorry, NO

Again, read that original post and assume this is his wife as well. She is IN THE SAME POSITION AS HIM!!!!


----------



## WorkingOnMe

DoF said:


> I would be careful with this. OP clearly stated that he is as guilty as his wife.
> 
> He hasn't taken any steps to show his wife love/intimacy etc neither.
> 
> Above would completely damage their relationship further IMO.
> 
> Step 1, do your 50% pronto. Rest will fall into place in time....



A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships were built for.


----------



## turnera

OP, there are lots of ways to rekindle the romance in your marriage, and it doesn't have to be about you doing all the heavy lifting. Interact more in little ways. Pat her butt as she walks past you. Bring her a single flower from the garden, with a smile. Ask her if anything interesting happened today. Listen to NPR or something else with global news and bring up some things to talk about - ask her her opinion (what should the US do about Russia, etc.); show her that you value her mind. But still show she turns you on. Say "wow!" when she wears something nice. Plan spontaneous picnics when the kid's away. Ask her to fill out the Love Buster questionnaire and read how you annoy her (and change it!); but give her yours, too, to show her that she's not perfect (that's marriage). Let her see she has some work to do, too.

Basically, get active with her. Spend 15 hours a week together focusing on each other. It really can bring the marriage back around full circle.


----------



## salmonoid1

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would not initiate at all. My fear in reacting to the text is that it shows his weakness. She can manipulate him with just a little sex. He is extremely unhappy, wants intimacy of any sort and has made his thoughts very clear. She has kept silent.
> 
> But she sends one text and suddenly he is taking her out to a great dinner and jumping up and down like a little boy who was told he might get a new toy if he is good.


I had asked both of my brothers to watch my son first thing, around 6:45, yesterday morning when I had decided to suprise her with a nice night out. The text came in around 9:00am, AFTER my plan was already in place. I am not rewarding her for the text. She did not manipulate me with the text. She DID throw me off a little as I was not expecting it.


----------



## ReformedHubby

DoF said:


> I would be careful with this. OP clearly stated that he is as guilty as his wife.
> 
> He hasn't taken any steps to show his wife love/intimacy etc neither.
> 
> Above would completely damage their relationship further IMO.
> 
> _*Step 1, do your 50% pronto. Rest will fall into place in time....*_


I can't fault him for it. She shut down first. Based on what he wrote I believe he kept up his half for as long as he could. How much rejection is one supposed to take?


----------



## Trickster

Salmonoid-

How often has your son been away overnight? Will Mrs. Salmonoid old be OK with it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

No games. Don't start going out without her. I did that and it backfired on me. Plus that doesn't seem like your style.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## salmonoid1

Trickster said:


> Salmonoid-
> 
> How often has your son been away overnight? Will Mrs. Salmonoid old be OK with it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She'll be fine with it. He's been away overnight more than enough that it is not an issue.


----------



## DoF

ReformedHubby said:


> I can't fault him for it. She shut down first. Based on what he wrote I believe he kept up his half for as long as he could. How much rejection is one supposed to take?


She is a human being, and not perfect....like ANY of us.

Also, no where in the thread it says "she did it first"

Regardless, you keep going and covering your 50%......in the face of rejection etc.

I know it's hard for people to swallow their pride, but sometimes it's what has to be done for your loved one.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

salmonoid1 said:


> I had asked both of my brothers to watch my son first thing, around 6:45, yesterday morning when I had decided to suprise her with a nice night out. The text came in around 9:00am, AFTER my plan was already in place. I am not rewarding her for the text. She did not manipulate me with the text. She DID throw me off a little as I was not expecting it.


I am not saying she manipulated you. I am saying that it may appear to her that she did. You are extremely unhappy and she knows it. But she sends one text and suddenly you are treating her like a queen.

So go have a nice dinner with her. See if you can have some nice, casual conversation about stuff. Have fun with her and see if you can't enjoy her company. But don't expect a thing, sexual or otherwise.


----------



## ReformedHubby

DoF said:


> She is a human being, and not perfect....like ANY of us.
> 
> Also, no where in the thread it says "she did it first"
> 
> Regardless, you keep going and covering your 50%......in the face of rejection etc.
> 
> I know it's hard for people to swallow their pride, but sometimes it's what has to be done for your loved one.


For how long though? Forever?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> She is a human being, and not perfect....like ANY of us.
> 
> Also, no where in the thread it says "she did it first"


Actually, he has raised it in previous posts:



> I gave up after she stopped giving it and couldn' even muster up a kiss.





> Affection and sex sucked long before my son broke his leg, this is why I pretty much gave up on all the special treatment.


Again, I am not saying he is blameless, but to equate one person stopping and another person who continues to try but finally is fed up over the rejection is not helpful. 



> Regardless, you keep going and covering your 50%......in the face of rejection etc.
> 
> I know it's hard for people to swallow their pride, but sometimes it's what has to be done for your loved one.


Dangerous advice. This makes sense in the short term, or to try and kick start things. But swallowing too much pride is a recipe for a doormat. She looses respect for him because he is expected to ignore her bad behavior and keep trying. That pretty effectively communicates that her behavior is acceptable.

I agree that right now, he needs to put his resentment aside. But it will need to be addressed at some point.


----------



## DoF

ReformedHubby said:


> For how long though? Forever?


You can't ask "for how long" when BOTH parties are not taking ANY steps to show affection/love etc.

OP clearly communicated to us that he has been as bad as his wife. So it CAN be FOREVER.

He needs to do whatever it takes to cover his 50% of the relationship. ONCE he does....THEN you can ask me that question.

We are not even remotely at that point yet though (in this situation).

Baby steps....


----------



## DoF

Tall Average Guy said:


> Actually, he has raised it in previous posts:
> 
> Again, I am not saying he is blameless, but to equate one person stopping and another person who continues to try but finally is fed up over the rejection is not helpful.


If the examples you posted are even REMOTELY considered "trying or "covering his end".......then that's pretty sad.

Those 2 examples told me "he is hardly trying" and even OP clearly stated that he is as wrong here as his wife/gave up etc.

THose examples don't even reach 1% mark. sorry



Tall Average Guy said:


> Dangerous advice. This makes sense in the short term, or to try and kick start things. But swallowing too much pride is a recipe for a doormat. She looses respect for him because he is expected to ignore her bad behavior and keep trying. That pretty effectively communicates that her behavior is acceptable.
> 
> I agree that right now, he needs to put his resentment aside. But it will need to be addressed at some point.


I think first paragraph is under the assumption that his wife is a ****ty person. And I have not been able to conclude that.

Remember the entire "nice guy/doormat" ONLY applies when dealing with crappy people you don't want in your life anyways. Sorry but I will not change myself and be a piece of crap to be with a crappy person. Either person appreciates me for who I am and values me being nice....or they don't.

Correct, he needs to take steps to show his wife love/affection and everything will be just fine (I'm assuming this woman loves him and will show it back in no time).

If one remains positive and does what's within their control, assuming they are dealing with a good loving person......it works out.


----------



## sinnister

With all due respect OP, romance is not your issue.

She is completely detached from you right now. You may as well be her brother. Taking her out to fancy dinners will be fun for her, like a brother taking her out to a fancy dinner.

WorkingOnMe has this so right it's scary. You need to show her that you're a man of indepedence and that you would be fine without her. She is comfortable in the fact that she can be your platonic roomate and you will love her no matter what until your dying days comitted to being a eunich.

I really do hope I'm wrong. But romancing her will push her away. I want you to fix this. I really do. Fixing it has to start with you showing her that you are strong. Romancing her is rewarding terrible behaviour.


----------



## Hicks

Now, there are a few possibilities of what is going on... Do you know which of these it is? IF not, you should try to use the next month to find out.

1. She loves you, and feels loved by you, and is happy, but does not realize that you need sexual fulfillment to feel loved by by her. Let's say that she feels loved if you make her pancakes. So she makes pancakes for you and assumes (since this is how she feels loved) that you also feel loved by her when she makes pancakes.

2. She does not feel loved by you or she is mad at you, or she resents you, so she is punishing you by denying sex until you can make her feel loved by you in her love language (which is non sexual).

3. She does feel that the goal of her life is marriage and motherhood, and she has reached this goal, and therefore no longer needs to use sex to attain her goals. Sex to women is not hard to attain so they don't think that a man who want sex from them is anythign special, whereas you as a man equate sex with love since it's hard to attain. Sex is generally considered "wrong" or "bad" so she stopped giving herself permission to be sexual since there really is no reason (in her mind) for it.

4. She feels loved by you, but she is a selfish person and does not want to give, she only wants to receive.

You need to ascertain which of these or combinations of them are applicable.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> If the examples you posted are even REMOTELY considered "trying or "covering his end".......then that's pretty sad.
> 
> Those 2 examples told me "he is hardly trying" and even OP clearly stated that he is as wrong here as his wife/gave up etc.
> 
> THose examples don't even reach 1% mark. sorry


You want to blame him, so you see it that way. I am not saying he is trying right now. What I am saying is that based on these comments, she shut down while he was still trying and doing things that she liked in the past. He continued to try for some period of time but was rejected. Eventually, as we humans tend to do, he quit doing something when it only leads to hurt.



> I think first paragraph is under the assumption that his wife is a ****ty person. And I have not been able to conclude that.
> 
> Remember the entire "nice guy/doormat" ONLY applies when dealing with crappy people you don't want in your life anyways. Sorry but I will not change myself and be a piece of crap to be with a crappy person. Either person appreciates me for who I am and values me being nice....or they don't.


Correct, he needs to take steps to show his wife love/affection and everything will be just fine (I'm assuming this woman loves him and will show it back in no time).

If one remains positive and does what's within their control, assuming they are dealing with a good loving person......it works out.[/QUOTE]

I am not assuming she is a crappy person. But I am also not assuming that she is not. There is evidence on both sides. What I do know is that she is a human being. Humans tend to not be that attractive to people they don't respect. 

So if he swallows his pride for the next year and continues to treat her like a queen with nothing from her, that is a bad idea. I agree he needs to take the first step (he is the one here and can only change his side of the equation). But he can't do it forever. If he makes these efforts, and two months later she is still sleeping with the kid, then that tells us a lot about her.


----------



## DoF

Tall Average Guy said:


> the next year and continues to treat her like a queen with nothing from her, that is a bad idea. I agree he needs to take the first step (he is the one here and can only change his side of the equation). But he can't do it forever. If he makes these efforts, and two months later she is still sleeping with the kid, then that tells us a lot about her.


Of course it's a bad idea, I wouldn't even give her a MONTH after his end is completely covered and his 50% is set.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> Of course it's a bad idea, I wouldn't even give her a MONTH after his end is completely covered and his 50% is set.


I would be careful about "completely covered." I agree that he needs to work on fixing his end and getting much of it turn around. But he is human and he will never be perfect. He can't accept poor behavior merely because he is not perfect.

I know that this sounds like a quibble, but I make this point for a specific reason. Someone who sticks around for four years with little sex or initamcy, and over a year with none, is the type who will look for an excuse to stay. There is a danger that the OP will stay, working on himself, but not enforce his boundary because he never "complete covered" his end or never set his half of the issues. There is always something he could probably do just a bit better. 

I agree that if she is a good person who wants to reconnect, this won't matter. But she may not be a good person. Or she might be the mother goddess type who thinks all should revolve around her and the child. Or she might be a good person who can't get over her resentment. He needs to hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.


----------



## DoF

If he takes steps to show love/affection to his wife, he will know within next few days. 

But I would give it couple of weeks before having a serious conversation with her about the issue. 

You can't cover 50% of what you haven't been doing for MONTHS in few days or even week or 2.

OP needs to deliver his end for couple of weeks and just focus on himself/do his best.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

DoF it sure seems like you're advocating the "nice guy" approach. We've seen that fail over and over again.


----------



## turnera

There's a difference between Nice Guy and engaging in your marriage when it's been missing. It's following HNHN and Dr. Harley's tenets that you get as much as you give, so try that before doing a 180.


----------



## DoF

WorkingOnMe said:


> DoF it sure seems like you're advocating the "nice guy" approach. We've seen that fail over and over again.


I will say it again.

Be who you are (even if it's Mr. Nice guy). If people take advantage of you because of that or treat you like ****, then they are simply not decent and worth being with ALL TOGETHER.

Being Mr.Niceguy = nice way to filter out crappy people in your life.

If my friend/loved one....WHOEVER takes advantage of me cause I'm nice and doesn't appreciate it, they are not worthy people to be in and around me/my life.

I will NOT change myself to be a scum and to "meet our society" standards because people are scumbags, sorry. 

I will however get those people completely out of my life.


----------



## Unique Username

Good Lord people
quit pushing your OWN agendas on him.

Just because it didn't work for you and you are STILL currently unhappy - what in the world makes you think your advice is the right advice for him. 

EVERY marriage is unique. Every relationship different from another.
Stop lambasting him for trying to effect change in his own way.

Give it a breather. 
Let him have the night and the weekend. Let him be excited about it.
Sal, I think your plans are awesome and it will turn out great.

Woo her back. Don't concentrate on the negativity.


----------



## DoF

Finally some help from female members. I was JUST going to say how that's needed in this thread.

So many of you take "negative" and completely backwards approach IMO.

When crap falls apart in my relationship I always try to look at myself first. Cause chances are, I'm part of the problem.

But I also understand many men struggle with swallowing their pride and just accepting that they are normal human beings that make mistake and simply admit to them.


----------



## salmonoid1

Unique Username said:


> Good Lord people
> quit pushing your OWN agendas on him.
> 
> Just because it didn't work for you and you are STILL currently unhappy - what in the world makes you think your advice is the right advice for him.
> 
> EVERY marriage is unique. Every relationship different from another.
> Stop lambasting him for trying to effect change in his own way.
> 
> Give it a breather.
> Let him have the night and the weekend. Let him be excited about it.
> Sal, I think your plans are awesome and it will turn out great.
> 
> Woo her back. Don't concentrate on the negativity.



I have to say that I DO appreciate ALL of your responses (although a bit overwhelming, really wasn't expecting so many) and have read every one. Some advice I will use and some I won't. A lot of what I have read has opened my eyes to some things that I wouldn't have recognized due tp the fact that it is ME that is in this situation. Dinner and conversation is on for tonight, I am not expecting anthing more than that. 

Last weekend I opted out of attending a couple of events and sent her on her way without me. she e-mailed me the following about an hour ago.

_Saturday May 3rd Tara is renting a bus for her b-day. Going to her bar and then wherever else. Bus leaves from her house and we can of course stay over. Do you want to be my date?_


----------



## DoF

Now it looks like your wife HAS BEEN and IS taking steps to cover her 50% but you have been reluctant to do so (although tonight that's changing of course).


----------



## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> Now it looks like your wife HAS BEEN and IS taking steps to cover her 50% but you have been reluctant to do so (although tonight that's changing of course).


No, not "HAS BEEN". Just now "IS" starting after 2 weeks of avoiding her which, for me, is the longest amount of time doing so. usually it's a day or two. It wasn't easy either.


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> No, not "HAS BEEN". Just now "IS" starting after 2 weeks of avoiding her which, for me, is the longest amount of time doing so. usually it's a day or two. It wasn't easy either.


That's not true



salmonoid1 said:


> Last weekend I opted out of attending a couple of events and sent her on her way without me. she e-mailed me the following about an hour ago.


You shut her down......

Roles have been reversed. Imagine if she said no to your dinner tonight.

And now you know how she felt when quoted happened.....

As I see it, your wife is doing much better than you. You are more in the wrong now.

Sorry that I can't tell you what you want to hear. I can only tell you what you need to hear.


----------



## Unique Username

I think you are both on your way back to each other.

Good luck.

I would make it happy talk tonight. Don't dwell on what wasn't.

Do not turn her down if she is in the mood after your lovely evening.
THAT would be the first nail in the casket.


----------



## Hicks

Sure seems to me that your natural withdrawal is waking her up to what she is on the verge of losing.

No one would argue with the fact that you have to be a good husband to her...It's always about you making sure that the marriage is good enough that she wants to keep it, wants to work at keeping it, and being clear that she will not get to keep it if your needs are never met while hers are.

There's a big difference between giving up after constant rejection and not ever meeting her needs in the first place. It really makes no sense to start becoming the ideal husband if you have tried in the past and got constantly rejected.... That would fall under rewarding bad behavior.


----------



## Hicks

DoF said:


> That's not true
> 
> You shut her down......
> 
> Roles have been reversed. Imagine if she said no to your dinner tonight.
> 
> And now you know how she felt when quoted happened.....
> 
> As I see it, your wife is doing much better than you. You are more in the wrong now.
> 
> Sorry that I can't tell you what you want to hear. I can only tell you what you need to hear.


I don't know where you are getting this.
His wife has denied him sexual fulfllment for a year. That's downright cruel. Sometimes showing that you've had enough is exactly what's needed.


----------



## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> That's not true
> 
> 
> 
> You shut her down......
> 
> Roles have been reversed. Imagine if she said no to your dinner tonight.
> 
> And now you know how she felt when quoted happened.....
> 
> As I see it, your wife is doing much better than you. You are more in the wrong now.
> 
> Sorry that I can't tell you what you want to hear. I can only tell you what you need to hear.


I'm sorry, i'm not following your "That's not true" statement? 

Shut her down, yes, pretty much completely. Before I did this I would get frustrated/angry and get over it quickly and we were at a minimum talking to each other, sitting down for dinner together, doing family things togehter. The past couple of weeks I did my own thing, basketball, backyard treehouse etc. with our son and she did hers. Talk was at minimum and I stuck to mostly "yes" or "no" answers as much as I could.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> As I see it, your wife is doing much better than you. You are more in the wrong now.


So when she was shutting him down and he finally quit, he was just as wrong, but now that he did not jump at her first attempt he is more wrong? I guess she really is the victim in all this.

To the OP. I think it is a good idea to accept her invite. See if you can start reconnecting. Go in assuming no sex (either for dinner or the trip). See if you can have some fun that includes her. Learn about indicators of interest and check to see if she exhibits any with you. This will help you feel confident as you figure out where things are going.


----------



## Hicks

salmonoid1 said:


> . The past couple of weeks I did my own thing, basketball, backyard treehouse etc. with our son and she did hers.


Totally appropriate.
If your wife will not participate in the marriage, then you should enjoy the freedom you have been given from the expectation that you are supposed to particpate in the marriage.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Unique Username said:


> Do not turn her down if she is in the mood after your lovely evening.
> THAT would be the first nail in the casket.


Could you please expand on your thinking on this?


----------



## Hicks

I agree, don't reject her if she tries to correct the error of her ways. That will cause her to give up trying.


----------



## salmonoid1

Tall Average Guy said:


> So when she was shutting him down and he finally quit, he was just as wrong, but now that he did not jump at her first attempt he is more wrong? I guess she really is the victim in all this.
> 
> To the OP. I think it is a good idea to accept her invite. See if you can start reconnecting. Go in assuming no sex (either for dinner or the trip). See if you can have some fun that includes her. Learn about indicators of interest and check to see if she exhibits any with you. This will help you feel confident as you figure out where things are going.


Think I'm gonna wait on an answer for the "Date" and see what happens over the next few weeks. The last time we went out with freinds/couples, it was like I wasn't even there. She sat at the other end of the dinner table away from me while the other couples sat together next to/across from each other. After dinner we went to another place where she completely ignored me. Felt like I was only there because she would have been the only one without her husband.


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> I'm sorry, i'm not following your "That's not true" statement?


You said that she hasn't made any effort.

Then you said (see below) that she actually did but you refused.



salmonoid1 said:


> Last weekend I opted out of attending a couple of events and sent her on her way without me. she e-mailed me the following about an hour ago.


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> Think I'm gonna wait on an answer for the "Date" and see what happens over the next few weeks. The last time we went out with freinds/couples, it was like I wasn't even there. She sat at the other end of the dinner table away from me while the other couples sat together next to/across from each other. After dinner we went to another place where she completely ignored me. Felt like I was only there because she would have been the only one without her husband.


Why didn't you sit next to her? What stopped you from doing so?

You can't expect her to do it all.....

Also, what did you do on that date to "make her feel like a wife"?


----------



## DoF

Hicks said:


> I don't know where you are getting this.
> His wife has denied him sexual fulfllment for a year. That's downright cruel. Sometimes showing that you've had enough is exactly what's needed.


During that year, what has he done to actually show her love and affection etc is my question?

Going to her and asking for sex does NOT count. What steps and actions has the OP taken?

There is a GOOD reason why she did not give it up for a year. And yes, she is wrong for "withholding sex" vs communicating her troubles to her husband and all.

It can be infidelity, but I like to be optimistic and simply say that OP probably didn't tickle her in the right places to make her want to be intimate (chances are).

Regardless, there are HUGE communication gaps in their relationship (that we all know).

OP, may I ask how much time you spend with your wife/family during your average week? Assuming you sleep 8 hours and work 8, that leaves you with about 72 hours of free time.

Think back to when this whole ordeal started.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> During that year, what has he done to actually show her love and affection etc is my question?
> 
> Going to her and asking for sex does NOT count. What steps and actions has the OP taken?
> 
> There is a GOOD reason why she did not give it up for a year. And yes, she is wrong for "withholding sex" vs communicating her troubles to her husband and all.


Again, what is that good reason? As he noted, their sex life was very poor long before this. So how long is he expected to continue? She won't even hold his hand, yet you seem to expect him to continue showering her with love and affection. If this is all that is missing, then why did she shut him down in the first place?

I don't have an issue with your advise on him changing. He is here and can't control her. He also has some blame and needs to clean up his side of the street. 

Where I (and others) take issue is your constant blame on him. She shuts down, he finally gives up trying, and he is at fault. He is more than 50% to blame. This last post on her poor communication is the first that you posted indicating that she has any fault.

He needs to hold her accountable, and not just once he is perfect.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> Why didn't you sit next to her? What stopped you from doing so?
> 
> You can't expect her to do it all.....


Is asking that she sit next to him "doing it all"?



> Also, what did you do on that date to "make her feel like a wife"?


I find it difficult to make someone feel like my wife when she refuses to sit next to me and completely ignores me. Your milage may vary.


----------



## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> You said that she hasn't made any effort.
> 
> Then you said (see below) that she actually did but you refused.


It was assumed I would go....because we are married....like we've always done in the past.


----------



## DoF

Tall Average Guy said:


> Again, what is that good reason? As he noted, their sex life was very poor long before this. So how long is he expected to continue?
> 
> I don't have an issue with your advise on him changing. He is here and can't control her. He also has some blame and needs to clean up his side of the street.
> 
> Where I (and others) take issue is your constant blame on him. She shuts down, he finally gives up trying, and he is at fault. He is more than 50% to blame. This last post on her poor communication is the first that you posted indicating that she has any fault.
> 
> He needs to hold her accountable, and not just once he is perfect.


I'm not constantly blaming him. I'm just telling him that he has to be part of the problem and should take steps within his control.

His wife already took steps (invited him to an event which he refused) so it seems like she is doing (or at least starting to do) what's within her control.....and he shut her down.

Hold her accountable? That's questionable. You are assuming he has been a great husband and put in his share....and we already see signs that he has NOT.

Again, there is a GOOD reason why she is not intimate with him (and there is plenty of blame on her, that's common sense/assumed).....but OP needs to find out what he might be doing wrong to make her feel that way.


----------



## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> It was assumed I would go....because we are married....like we've always done in the past.


So why didn't you?


----------



## Hicks

DoF said:


> During that year, what has he done to actually show her love and affection etc is my question?
> 
> Going to her and asking for sex does NOT count. What steps and actions has the OP taken?
> 
> *I don't know and you don't know. You are assuming he has done nothing.*
> 
> There is a GOOD reason why she did not give it up for a year. And yes, she is wrong for "withholding sex" vs communicating her troubles to her husband and all.
> 
> *Don't disagree with that. But you are assuming it is becuase he has been a bad husband and you have no information to go by. There are a multitude of reasons ranging from her vagina hurts to she hates all men and everything in between. *
> 
> It can be infidelity, but I like to be optimistic and simply say that OP probably didn't tickle her in the right places to make her want to be intimate (chances are).
> 
> *Or a myriad of other possiblities*
> 
> Regardless, there are HUGE communication gaps in their relationship (that we all know).
> 
> *I don't know it. In fact, the long lenghty note from OP to his wife is tremendous communication.*
> 
> OP, may I ask how much time you spend with your wife/family during your average week? Assuming you sleep 8 hours and work 8, that leaves you with about 72 hours of free time.
> 
> 
> Think back to when this whole ordeal started.


----------



## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> Why didn't you sit next to her? What stopped you from doing so?
> 
> You can't expect her to do it all.....
> 
> Also, what did you do on that date to "make her feel like a wife"?


You are just not getting it....

I sat down, she then sat at the other end of the table.

I've done it all already, she needs to put in SOME effort.


----------



## DoF

Tall Average Guy said:


> Is asking that she sit next to him "doing it all"?


No

But how about being a man and sitting down next to your wife? 



Tall Average Guy said:


> I find it difficult to make someone feel like my wife when she refuses to sit next to me and completely ignores me. Your milage may vary.


You are assuming she sat down away from me.....and it seems like they BOTH ignored eachother (not she JUST ignored HIM).

Again, I'm keeping open mind and you are just assuming "wife" is always at fault.

Take initiative and sit next to her, chat a bit, break the cycle.

Again, just because wife might be childish/immature doesn't mean he should be as well.


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## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> You are just not getting it....
> 
> I sat down, she then sat at the other end of the table.


That's fine



salmonoid1 said:


> I've done it all already, she needs to put in SOME effort.


What have you done? Define "ALL"

past few weeks, she has done more than you based on what you said. She invited you to an event and you shut her down.


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## turnera

salmonoid, usually when a woman does something like that (sits somewhere else in such an obvious way), she's upset about something. She's punishing you and doesn't even realize it. IMO, your first job is to figure out what it is that she has resentment for. It could be something as small as a comment you made or it could be something as big as picking the wrong house. Who knows? But you need to figure it out.


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## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> During that year, what has he done to actually show her love and affection etc is my question?
> 
> Going to her and asking for sex does NOT count. What steps and actions has the OP taken?
> 
> There is a GOOD reason why she did not give it up for a year. And yes, she is wrong for "withholding sex" vs communicating her troubles to her husband and all.
> 
> It can be infidelity, but I like to be optimistic and simply say that OP probably didn't tickle her in the right places to make her want to be intimate (chances are).
> 
> Regardless, there are HUGE communication gaps in their relationship (that we all know).
> 
> OP, may I ask how much time you spend with your wife/family during your average week? Assuming you sleep 8 hours and work 8, that leaves you with about 72 hours of free time.
> 
> Think back to when this whole ordeal started.


It's been longer than a year......MAYBE once a month for the past 4 years and not necessarily intercourse


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## salmonoid1

DoF said:


> That's fine
> 
> 
> 
> What have you done? Define "ALL"
> 
> past few weeks, she has done more than you based on what you said. She invited you to an event and you shut her down.


NO!......YESTERDAY she sent me a naked text.....today she asked me to be her date......I skipped a birthday party and a communion that it was ASSUMED that I would go, as married couples would normally do..


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## Hicks

salmonoid1 said:


> Think I'm gonna wait on an answer for the "Date" and see what happens over the next few weeks. The last time we went out with freinds/couples, it was like I wasn't even there. She sat at the other end of the dinner table away from me while the other couples sat together next to/across from each other. After dinner we went to another place where she completely ignored me. Felt like I was only there because she would have been the only one without her husband.


I would not wait. What you should do is accept the invitation.
You don't know if she is doing this to make up to you vs use you for a date to portray a happy marriage. Why assume a negative? If she does the latter, is that the end of the world? It will simply be information about your marriage and your wife. Information is crucial. So there is no downside. Either it's a mending of fences, or it provides you information about your marriage and your wife...


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## Tall Average Guy

DoF said:


> No
> 
> But how about being a man and sitting down next to your wife?
> 
> 
> 
> You are assuming she sat down away from me.....and it seems like they BOTH ignored eachother (not she JUST ignored HIM).


Well, actually she did. And he noted that when they went to the other place, she ignored him.



> Again, I'm keeping open mind and you are just assuming "wife" is always at fault.


Not at all. If I thought that, there was a ton of stuff I could have jumped on. There are things he needs to work on. But she is not blameless.

Right now, she is not attracted to him. Lots of it is that she does not respect him. His letter came off as whiney and needy. He absolutely needs to stop that. I think he needs to ask her questions and listen without interupting.

But I don't think upping the affection alone will work. He was affectionate before and she still withdrew.


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## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> It's been longer than a year......MAYBE once a month for the past 4 years and not necessarily intercourse


She clearly has issues with you, DEEP resentment about SOMETHING. 

Find out what it is, FAST. Be prepared to face anything.....

That's all I can say at this point. I also think you should've reached out for help 4 years ago.......not now. 

Also tried to communicate/address it WAY back with her. If you have an issue with something, nip the bud. If you don't, think of it as snowball going down the hill, it only gets bigger and hits harder at the end of the hill.

Good luck


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## Tall Average Guy

Hicks said:


> I would not wait. What you should do is accept the invitation.
> You don't know if she is doing this to make up to you vs use you for a date to portray a happy marriage. Why assume a negative? If she does the latter, is that the end of the world? It will simply be information about your marriage and your wife. Information is crucial. So there is no downside. Either it's a mending of fences, or it provides you information about your marriage and your wife...


I agree. You have dinner tonight. See how that goes. It may give you some insight into where she is at. If it bombs, you can always decide not to go on the bus trip.

But if you have fun, you can take the next step with the trip.


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## DoF

Tall Average Guy said:


> Right now, she is not attracted to him.


Can't be true, she wouldn't have "sexted him"



Tall Average Guy said:


> Lots of it is that she does not respect him. His letter came off as whiney and needy. He absolutely needs to stop that. I think he needs to ask her questions and listen without interupting.


I missed the letter part but if that's what OP did then that's kind of immature......I agree with above.

Communicate face to face, it's the only/best way to have a serious discussion with your significant other.



Tall Average Guy said:


> But I don't think upping the affection alone will work. He was affectionate before and she still withdrew.


I still have not seen anything that would tell me he has tried everything in his power to be affectionate and put in his 50%. OP even stated that he has jumped on her wagon with ignoring/resenting etc.

I still stand with doing your best yourself FIRST before talking to her. That's simply because it's hard to talk to someone about their issues when you are the one doing similar things.


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## DoF

salmonoid1 said:


> NO!......YESTERDAY she sent me a naked text.....today she asked me to be her date......I skipped a birthday party and a communion that it was ASSUMED that I would go, as married couples would normally do..


Ok, so she didn't directly ask you (I understand).

2 steps she did take yesterday and today are her ways of putting in SMALL percentage of her 50%.......

Embrace it and do the best yourself to show her love/affection etc. Do your 50%


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## mom1.2

salmonoid1 said:


> My wife has been sleeping in the guest room with our 4yr old for 1yr and 3wks. We do not have sex and haven't had what you would consider a sex life since he was born. She doesn't touch me at all, doesn't kiss me either. Sometimes I think that the only reason she married me was to have a child. I have asked her countless times to come back to our bed but she continues to sleep in the gueatroom with him. We remodeled his room with ninja turtles and all kinds of cool stuff. I thought that would be the end of it and we would have him stay in his own room since it's completion. This was not the case. She continues to stay in the guest room. She knows exactly how I feel about all of this as I have made myself VERY clear on several occasions. What should I do? Other than saying it, which I have already, how can I convince her that if it continues I will end up leaving to find someone who can fulfill my basic human need to feel loved and wanted? Should I just Leave?


You need to romance her instead of talking about it - take her out for dinner - lots of wine or a margarita, then when you get home hopefully your son is asleep by then - take her by the hand and take her to the bedroom - have all-about her-sex - see what happens... whats the worst that can happen? so she'll go sleep there again - she is already doing that.


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## DoF

mom1.2 said:


> You need to romance her instead of talking about it - take her out for dinner - lots of wine or a margarita, then when you get home hopefully your son is asleep by then - take her by the hand and take her to the bedroom - have all-about her-sex - see what happens... whats the worst that can happen? so she'll go sleep there again - she is already doing that.


I'm gonna have to completely disagree here.

I would not recommend alcohol or getting her under influence. OP probably wants her as focused as EVER at this point.

Sex is not a goal/issue at hand here.

What is making her NOT wanting to have sex and show love to her husband is what he needs to figure out.

Get to the bottom of the issue.....I wouldn't even sleep with her at this point, but that's just me.


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## Blossom Leigh

She is tolerating you while she is waiting for you to "get it."

If she is being this distant, odds are she has already "told you" what "it" is and it fell on deaf ears. 

My recommendation .... is go hat in hand and say "Honey, in hindsight... I must have screwed up somewhere along the way, and you have probably told me along the way what that screw up was... and I failed to listen and I am sorry for that, but I'm standing here right here right now saying to you that I am hear to listen to your heart and hear every word you have to say. I love you and want you in my life in every way. It may even take you some time to say what you want to say and that is ok, whenever you are ready to share it, I will hear it, ok?" and then walk away and leave her to absorb that... kiss her on her forehead and go do your own thing.... watch what happens...

because you will never get anywhere excusing your behavior by looking at hers....


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## Trickster

Tall Average Guy said:


> I would be careful about "completely covered." I agree that he needs to work on fixing his end and getting much of it turn around. But he is human and he will never be perfect. He can't accept poor behavior merely because he is not perfect.
> 
> I know that this sounds like a quibble, but I make this point for a specific reason. Someone who sticks around for four years with little sex or initamcy, and over a year with none, is the type who will look for an excuse to stay. There is a danger that the OP will stay, working on himself, but not enforce his boundary because he never "complete covered" his end or never set his half of the issues. There is always something he could probably do just a bit better.
> 
> I agree that if she is a good person who wants to reconnect, this won't matter. But she may not be a good person. Or she might be the mother goddess type who thinks all should revolve around her and the child. Or she might be a good person who can't get over her resentment. He needs to hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.



If the OP is like me, he will find every excuse to stay... He will try different things and with each it will be a short fix. The OP's wife doesn't appear to be bothered by the lack of sex..I think Salmonoid's wife may be a great mother and aan overall wonderful sweet woman and he will doubt every action taken against such a sweet passive amazingly beautiful woman. He want to create a marriage like his parents have and will do anything and jump through every hoop thrown his way....she may give him jus enough sx o keep him around because sh all wants to stay married...


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## Tall Average Guy

Blossom Leigh said:


> She is tolerating you while she is waiting for you to "get it."
> 
> If she is being this distant, odds are she has already "told you" what "it" is and it fell on deaf ears.
> 
> My recommendation .... is go hat in hand and say "Honey, in hindsight... I must have screwed up somewhere along the way, and you have probably told me along the way what that screw up was... and I failed to listen and I am sorry for that, but I'm standing here right here right now saying to you that I am hear to listen to your heart and hear every word you have to say. I love you and want you in my life in every way. It may even take you some time to say what you want to say and that is ok, whenever you are ready to share it, I will hear it, ok?" and then walk away and leave her to absorb that... kiss her on her forehead and go do your own thing.... watch what happens...
> 
> because you will never get anywhere excusing your behavior by looking at hers....


What are your thoughts on how long should he wait for any answer? What should he do if she does not share?


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## Trickster

Blossom Leigh said:


> She is tolerating you while she is waiting for you to "get it."
> 
> If she is being this distant, odds are she has already "told you" what "it" is and it fell on deaf ears.
> 
> My recommendation .... is go hat in hand and say "Honey, in hindsight... I must have screwed up somewhere along the way, and you have probably told me along the way what that screw up was... and I failed to listen and I am sorry for that, but I'm standing here right here right now saying to you that I am hear to listen to your heart and hear every word you have to say. I love you and want you in my life in every way. It may even take you some time to say what you want to say and that is ok, whenever you are ready to share it, I will hear it, ok?" and then walk away and leave her to absorb that... kiss her on her forehead and go do your own thing.... watch what happens...
> 
> because you will never get anywhere excusing your behavior by looking at hers....


What if it's something that she knows he doesn't want to hear, so to keep the peace, she won't be open and honest?


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## P51Geo1980

Unique Username said:


> That is the most ridiculous thing I've read in a good long while.
> 
> Cheating is solely placed on the cheater.


This is a very short sighted answer.

I used to feel the same way, but after being in a sexless marriage and a wife that neglects me, I can sympathize why people in Op's situation would cheat. In this case, the cheated is completely responsible for the demise of the relationship. Not the act of cheating, but for pushing the cheater into that position. 

Sadly, this is what a lot of people don't understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unique Username

Well P51, a lot from both sides in a relationship creates the demise of said relationship. It usually takes 2 to screw it up and 2 to fix it.
COMMUNICATION and COMPROMISE and putting one's ego away helps in mending.

Cheating, on the other hand - is completely the cheaters CHOICE. It take thought and action to have sex with someone other than one's spouse.

Anyway - Sal
WHat happened last night? Anything good come from it?


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## salmonoid1

Well, dinner and a night out went well. She was pretty excited to get the note I left to get all prettied up and meet me. We met somewhere we never had gone before which added to the, mystery and anticipation. We had a great time, nice dinner, went somewhere after and shot some pool. I got a very positive response so I guess, for now, I'll start doing things like this again. The rest of the weekend was good too with alot of touching, hugging and kissing. We discussed getting her back in to our bed with positive responses to my suggestions. It will probably take a little while due to the fact that my son has become somewhat attatched to sleeping with his mother so I guess patients will be the key on this. Thanks to everyone who responded. It helped to see things from different perspectives.


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## turnera

Nice!

Now line up that permanent babysitter!


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## P51Geo1980

salmonoid1 said:


> It will probably take a little while due to the fact that my son has become somewhat attatched to sleeping with his mother so I guess patients will be the key on this.


Do NOT be too patient. He's 4 and old enough to understand that mommy and daddy are married and they share a bed.


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