# Check Your Bags



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

For the benefit of Men's Club members Trenton and Brennan.

My initial post to your challenge about baggage was facetious. 

I will give you the courtesy of a genuine response. The topic deserves it's own thread.

My first qualifier is that I see baggage as circumstances resulting from your past _that you haven't dealt with or addressed, and continues to impact your life in a detrimental fashion._ That may or may not jive with your meaning, but I figured I would tell you mine.

My ex has steamer trunks full of baggage. Baggage that had a direct impact upon the course and trajectory of our relationship. That isn't laying blame. It's fact - one that I am fully confident she would own were she asked. 

My baggage was the 'Nice Guy' piece. But up until my marriage tanked, I didn't see it as baggage. That's the tricky thing about baggage. Everyone else may be pointing, giggling, or gasping at the monkey on your back, while you steadfastly assert "There is no monkey. Stop pointing ang being rude." Then one day you feel a strange sensation on your neck, turn to look and get a face full of feces.
"Oh ... _That_ monkey."

I wasn't aware that my behavior was contributing to, and deepening the issues. I truly believed that I was working towards an amicable and loving resolution to the problems we faced. You can see that same theme in many of the cases here, for both men and women. The harder one partner tries to get close, the further away the other partner runs. 

I know what my baggage is. This forum helped me recognize it - and provided input on dealing with it. I stopped chasing. I stopped apologizing. I stopped looking for approval from my ex-partner. I stopped being Nice, _to my detriment._

I have been given input, support, and advice by both men and women. I'm not denying, deflecting or minimizing what is mine. 
Happy to answer questions, with the belief that doing so helps me - and may help somebody else.

Care to share yours?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo,

I consider baggage to largely be a function of defensiveness.

If one were to argue that women are more "defensive" because they've had to deal with male "offense" their entire lives (from puberty forward), I'd have to agree.

But, the whole idea that someone has to constantly wonder what's "real" and to "test" the other has a strong element of defense to it.

Of course, I've had to face my own defensiveness in therapy and it's been no fun at all. The ashen-faced humble response to those "illuminations" certainly takes away a bit of masculine vigor - at least for awhile.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I find the dynamics of this stuff just so incredibly fascinating.

I don't recall the poster or thread, but I believe it was you that referred the gentleman to Athol's blog. He returned to post that he thought the blog was simply a$$holish, male posturing and disrespectful to women.

To me? That's baggage. I'm ok with calling it that because up until about a year ago, I held the exact same view.

In that same vein, I interact with ex a lot. We actually talk about relationship stuff a lot. It's not an exercise in masochism. I get stuff from it.

Here is what I know: she sh!t tests poor TOM constantly now. And he fails ... every ... single ... time.

How do I know this? Because she still does them to me too. And with each one I pass, she immediately declares "Now see, why can't he do that?"

People may be horrified by this, but to me it's like a fun, living laboratory - and despite the naysayers or those who find the whole notion of 'game' to be pr!ckish; fact remains it works.

I have opened up my bags and joyously strewn my dirty laundry all over the front yard. Dealing with it and accepting it, as opposed to feeling challenged, or fearful of it makes you healthy and strong - not weak.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

My baggage? A childhood growing up totally ignored by my parents as they made everything else in their lives a bigger priority. Being neglected led me to some bad choices at 18/19.
More baggage? Marrying a man who knew my childhood and yet ignores me anyways.
Current baggage? Letting go of the resentment I feel towards him for essentially taking over my parents role. He is working on himself but the resentment runs deep so I don't know if his "working" will ever be enough for me and maybe I should just move on.

I am glad you mentioned that you too have baggage. Your original post made it sound like it was all your ex which I firmly do not believe.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

>>How do I know this? Because she still does them to me too. And with each one I pass, she immediately declares "Now see, why can't he do that?"<<

Deej,

I'm laughing out loud at this.

What a shame.

I hope our pal PBear is reading this.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Brennan said:


> My baggage? A childhood growing up totally ignored by my parents as they made everything else in their lives a bigger priority. Being neglected led me to some bad choices at 18/19.
> More baggage? Marrying a man who knew my childhood and yet ignores me anyways.
> Current baggage? Letting go of the resentment I feel towards him for essentially taking over my parents role. He is working on himself but the resentment runs deep so I don't know if his "working" will ever be enough for me and maybe I should just move on.


Thanks for responding. And just so you know ... we (The Royal We of Men) do pay attention.

I saw your baggage as 'being valued'. I had some of that too. Which makes rejection or being ignored all the more painful. 




> I am glad you mentioned that you too have baggage. Your original post made it sound like it was all your ex which I firmly do not believe.


Some of my posts are made tongue in cheek. That's why I wanted to clarify. Prior to accepting my own stuff and contribution, I did lay everything that went wrong, 100% at her feet.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo,
Yes, his rejection and ignoring me hurts deeply. The anger comes from that he didn't use to be this way. Loving, attentive, awesome. Now, I think it was bait and switch. 
The deep resentment comes from him literally being in my life since 9, seeing what I was going through at home, knowing how I hurt, marrying me and then continuing every damn thing they did even if he wasn't aware he was doing that.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> My baggage? A childhood growing up totally ignored by my parents as they made everything else in their lives a bigger priority. Being neglected led me to some bad choices at 18/19.
> More baggage? Marrying a man who knew my childhood and yet ignores me anyways.


OK - this dynamic FASCINATES me.

Brennan - I would strongly suspect that you married someone who you thought would give you the attention you lacked as a child. But for whatever reason, you somehow ended up with someone who was more like your parents than you initially realized.

When I was first attracted to my wife, back in high school and college, she was a highly driven, independent person. In college after we got serious, we were having discussions about which one of us would have the type of career that might dictate where we would live.

Then - before college was over - my wife's early struggles with anxiety and depression began to surface. Mild at first, but they've grown over the years.

What amazes me is that my mother suffered from depression to a very high degree. My wife - initially - seemed like the OPPOSITE of my mother, which was part of what I believe attracted me to her. That she WASN'T my mom.

But somehow - over time - she's become more and more like my mother. Her emotional struggles have intensified and are now starting to manifest themselves physically as well (fatigue, fibro).

On some subconsious level, I set out initially to find the OPPOSITE of my mother, and thought I had succeeded. But now there are so many similarities - its like I somehow sabotaged myself without even knowing it.

Do I sound crazy, or am I making some sense?

Brennan - do you get what I'm saying? And am I right that our stories are similar?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Niceguy,

I have a feeling we ALL seek what we missed. Some through neglect. Some through loss (in my case, death). Yet, we seek what we believe we need - and appear "needy" when we don't get it.

You fill in the rest.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Thank you Deejo. I think we agree on this definition of baggage and I understand and agree with what you are saying.

If I be honest, then I'll admit that my husband is the only one who seems to accept me regardless of my baggage and this endears him to me. When I say we both carry each other's baggage though, I think that's true for the duration of the relationship. Your spouse might see the monkey and try to help you out by luring it down or even carrying it for you at times, even when this might not be healthy for them. Here we see the fitness tests and Nice Guy issues crop up.

What is my baggage? I was abused as a child by my father who is still in my life now and happily married (or at least appears so even though I admit it should be near impossible) to my Mom. He is a guy I get along with and this makes it even harder. I was fourteen when it happened and my daughter is now fourteen and this is proving to be very difficult for me. I told my mother what my father did right away but nothing ever happened besides placing me in therapy which was really confusing and left me feeling like it was my fault.

This sums it up. I know that underneath my husband not coming home from work on time, I have this irrational fear that he'll turn out like my father and prove to be untrustworthy or wickedly hurtful. I find myself always checking on the relationship between my daughter and him which is also unfair to him, thankfully we're totally open with this and he understands. I know my baggage appears in our life constantly but have a hard time denying it. It confuses everything.

The results of my baggage is that I'm hyper sexual and hyper emotional and always have been. When I say I'm high maintenance I know it's true.

My husband's baggage? He's a first generation immigrant from South America who came here at 7 to be with his mother who he never knew as she came to the US when he was a baby. His Grandmother raised him but died in a freak accident when he was 7. 

He had to come to a blended family with a step dad that hit him and that didn't really love him. His step dad and mom then went through a brutal divorce when his Mom found out that her husband was cheating on her with her best friend and got her best friend pregnant. My husband had to learn the English language and perform in school and in our culture as well as take on a head of household role at an early age when his step father walked out on them.

Obviously both of our histories are a lot more detailed than this but this is the basic summary of the baggage that both divides and connects us. We both have issues with connections in that I connect with others almost compulsively and he won't connect with anyone. Together we don't have issues connecting on any level and never have. It's gotten me through things I thought were impossible.

Our experiences create expectations and patterns of behavior that equal our baggage or the monkey on your back, correct? If you can get rid of the monkey or baggage and still retain the lessons I think this is ideal for every relationship but seems near impossible to do, especially when fitness tests/nice guy syndrome patterns emerge and become the norm. Overall, certainly it's difficult.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> My baggage? A childhood growing up totally ignored by my parents as they made everything else in their lives a bigger priority. Being neglected led me to some bad choices at 18/19.
> More baggage? Marrying a man who knew my childhood and yet ignores me anyways.
> Current baggage? Letting go of the resentment I feel towards him for essentially taking over my parents role. He is working on himself but the resentment runs deep so I don't know if his "working" will ever be enough for me and maybe I should just move on.
> 
> I am glad you mentioned that you too have baggage. Your original post made it sound like it was all your ex which I firmly do not believe.


Do you think you resent yourself at all for choosing a man that reflects what you disliked in your parents treatment of you?

I don't know but I'm guessing that the only way for you to overcome your baggage is to come to terms with it and face it. It seems like you want to place the burden all on him. Did you ever think you subconsciously behave in a way that makes it easier for him to ignore you?

Not judging you, just curious.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
You are highly perceptive. Yes, that is EXACTLY why I fell in love with him. He was open, honest, kind, compassionate, trustworthy, communicative and every other great thing a man can be.
Now? He is a passive aggressive conflict avoider. It's lovely.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Do you think you resent yourself at all for choosing a man that reflects what you disliked in your parents treatment of you?
> 
> I don't know but I'm guessing that the only way for you to overcome your baggage is to come to terms with it and face it. It seems like you want to place the burden all on him. Did you ever think you subconsciously behave in a way that makes it easier for him to ignore you?
> 
> Not judging you, just curious.


Yes. I also think my resentment shows and he uses that reason to further avoid things. My resentment didn't happen over night though. This is years in the making. One could also argue that his avoidance is years in the making. Either way, I feel let down.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I have opened up my bags and joyously strewn my dirty laundry all over the front yard. Dealing with it and accepting it, as opposed to feeling challenged, or fearful of it makes you healthy and strong - not weak.


So do you actually believe it is how you look at it and what you do with the baggage rather than that the baggage always has to be a weight, negative factor in a relationship? If so, then we agree.

I wonder how long we can keep this baggage analogy going. Soon I'm going to gather up the monkeys on our back and have them poo on the strewn about baggage...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Yes.


That is powerful. Have you thought about admitting this to him?

This is my psycho babble analysis for you and please take it with ten grains of salt. I think if you can recognize an inner strength and happiness that is within you regardless of whether or not he responds to you, then the boundaries between you and he will disappear slowly and he will be able to give you the attention you desire.

Now, when I figure out the exact actions you can take to make this happen I'll clue you in because I wouldn't know where to begin.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Conrad said:


> Niceguy,
> 
> I have a feeling we ALL seek what we missed. Some through neglect. Some through loss (in my case, death). Yet, we seek what we believe we need - and appear "needy" when we don't get it.
> 
> You fill in the rest.


I also believe many of us set out on a path to be so different from our parents, but yet end up just like them.

My parents smoked - I HATED IT. I've never smoked. 

My Dad took every financial shortcut in the book - too much debt, continually refinancing the house, I'm fairly sure he took some 'tax' shortcuts. I do EVERYTHING by the rules.

On the other hand, my Dad drank - then beat it. I struggle with alcohol. I have some fairly lousy memories from his drinking. I don't think my children have anything comparable. BUT - I know that I would be a much healthier person both physically and emotionally if I stopped or cut back.

My mom was depressed - almost disabled by it. I fell in love with a confident, young ambitious woman who has slowly become someone much different. And I don't mean to sound mean or harsh - I LOVE her - it just puzzles the $HIT out of me.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> My mom was depressed - almost disabled by it. I fell in love with a confident, young ambitious woman who has slowly become someone much different. And I don't mean to sound mean or harsh - I LOVE her - it just puzzles the $HIT out of me.


Do you both talk about this? Life sort of beats you down after awhile. I know right now I'm in a spot where I can't figure out if the work I do is even worthwhile when there was a point when my passion for my work was so intense it was hard to explain. I keep telling my husband that I feel like I lost my passion, as if I should mourn for it or beg it to come back.

I think it's really common for both women and men to get to a point where they question what they're doing it's not a reflection on the better half as much as an inner issue within her. Not a mid-life crisis as much as a...oh my goodness, I'm getting old, what have I done and how did I get here crisis.

Some men go out and buy sports cars and date young women or reconnect with an old hobby. Some women become depressed and turn inward or they begin fitness tests in earnest testing the crap out of their significant other hoping that they turn out to be what they always thought?...

If only women were more attracted to sports cars and young men.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton,
He knows my feelings about this. Sadly, he has apologized for taking over where my parents left off. An apology is one thing, changing the action is another. 

Well it's apparent that men and women change each other for the worse in the long term or maybe we just allow the change. All I know is in my next lifetime, I am going to be gay.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> He knows my feelings about this. Sadly, he has apologized for taking over where my parents left off. An apology is one thing, changing the action is another.
> 
> Well it's apparent that men and women change each other for the worse in the long term or maybe we just allow the change. All I know is in my next lifetime, I going to be gay.


LOL

They don't have to change each other for the worst. I really don't believe that. They both have to stay connected even through their changes. Change is inevitable but the deterioration of a relationship isn't.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> So do you actually believe it is how you look at it and what you do with the baggage rather than that the baggage always has to be a weight, negative factor in a relationship? If so, then we agree.
> 
> I wonder how long we can keep this baggage analogy going. Soon I'm going to gather up the monkeys on our back and have them poo on the strewn about baggage...


Yep. We agree. Acknowledge that your lugging a weight around, shift it to make it lighter and carry it comfortably - or consistently drop it, and b!tch about how heavy and what a PITA it is, and use it as an excuse for inaction.

Thank you both for sharing what you struggle with.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It is worth working through childhood issues. I thought my dad got many things wrong and my mother never did. I know different now. Then after I’d been a father for many years, well I saw I went and got things wrong as well. I discovered I’m not perfect in anyway about me and I never can be. Years after he passed away I spent a few hours by his grave having a chat. It was a wet, drizzly afternoon. At the end of the chat I forgave him for everything and thanked him for providing for me and teaching me much about the core values of live, either in a negative or positive way. It was one of the most cathartic, growing up things I’ve ever done in my life. It certainly was a release, an unbinding from my childhood.

But I guess there are some things from our childhood that are unforgivable. But at the same time I still believe in the adage “Forgive … or relive”.

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> It is worth working through childhood issues. I thought my dad got many things wrong and my mother never did. I know different now. Then after I’d been a father for many years, well I saw I went and got things wrong as well. I discovered I’m not perfect in anyway about me and I never can be. Years after he passed away I spent a few hours by his grave having a chat. It was a wet, drizzly afternoon. At the end of the chat I forgave him for everything and thanked him for providing for me and teaching me much about the core values of live, either in a negative or positive way. It was one of the most cathartic, growing up things I’ve ever done in my life. It certainly was a release, an unbinding from my childhood.
> 
> But I guess there are some things from our childhood that are unforgivable. But at the same time I still believe in the adage “Forgive … or relive”.
> 
> Bob


Bob,

That last line sends a chill.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> That last line sends a chill.


I what way Conrad?

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I what way Conrad?
> 
> Bob


Simply because it's so true.

If you fight not to become it... if you insist that others not treat you that way (developing a hair trigger and thereby ensuring it), there is no way to escape it - until you walk straight through it.

That's what you did at the cemetery.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

nice777guy said:


> I also believe many of us set out on a path to be so different from our parents, but yet end up just like them.


My behavior very much mimicked my mothers. Give your all to the marriage, get very little to nothing back. Give more. Get less. Then one day just snap.

I really did not want to divorce. I saw it as failure. I definitely did not want to repeat what I watched happen to my parents. And then it simply did.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Do you both talk about this?


My wife has said many times that she's not my mom - knowing that there are parallels between them. And she's right - she's not my mother.

My Mom had a rough upbringing - her family was poor, there was some physical abuse, didn't finish high school because she had to get a job to help feed her family, etc. Some of the stories I heard from her friends after she had died were very revealing. I wish I had known more about her past when she was alive.

But my wife had a blessed childhood - she has good parents. So many of her issues stem from her not living up to her own expectations.

My wife still has some drive left and she still puts pressure on herself. But she seems afraid to fail, so there are a lot of things that she just won't or can't do. She's never had a career. She's started a few, but something has always held her back.

I just don't get it...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

This stuff is scary. Terrifying actually.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Brennan said:


> This stuff is scary. Terrifying actually.


That's what happens when you look in the bag. It's why many people _never_ look in the bag.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Simply because it's so true.
> 
> If you fight not to become it... if you insist that others not treat you that way (developing a hair trigger and thereby ensuring it), there is no way to escape it - until you walk straight through it.
> 
> That's what you did at the cemetery.


I missed out the last part of the story at the cemetery. It’s kind of personal but I will put it out and I know people see these things differently.

It was an overcast and drizzly day and I’d been there a few hours. When I’d said my forgiveness to my father the clouds somehow opened up and sunrays came down. My interpretation is that he’d been waiting for me to forgive him and had somehow stayed behind for it and the meaning of it. It was a phenomenal release from my past and I like to think it happened to us both and he went on his way.

I’ve had a couple more experiences like that in my life. I’m not a Church man. I like to think there’s a spiritually that connects us all as human beings. I think in modern times in many ways that connection has been lost. And that there are significant times in our life either when we are in trouble or those we love are in trouble when that world somehow combines to help us out.

Bob


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> My wife has said many times that she's not my mom - knowing that there are parallels between them. And she's right - she's not my mother.
> 
> My Mom had a rough upbringing - her family was poor, there was some physical abuse, didn't finish high school because she had to get a job to help feed her family, etc. Some of the stories I heard from her friends after she had died were very revealing. I wish I had known more about her past when she was alive.
> 
> ...


Maybe she was so used to getting what she wanted easily that she never learned to have a drive to go after what it is she wants. She might actually have to learn it. Besides that, fear of failing is crippling. The only way for her to get over this is to do what she is afraid of which is what she can't do. Horrible cycle. 

Have you tried telling her you'd be there to catch her if she fails and then help her back up to try again at whatever her dreams may be? -or- talking to her about how you are frustrated and why?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ah, but that's the tricky part.

"I'll be there to catch you when you fall..."

And, you're saying this to who?

The person who has just seen all your neediness in full flower?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I missed out the last part of the story at the cemetery. It’s kind of personal but I will put it out and I know people see these things differently.
> 
> It was an overcast and drizzly day and I’d been there a few hours. When I’d said my forgiveness to my father the clouds somehow opened up and sunrays came down. My interpretation is that he’d been waiting for me to forgive him and had somehow stayed behind for it and the meaning of it. It was a phenomenal release from my past and I like to think it happened to us both and he went on his way.
> 
> ...


Everything you're writing is very true and resonates with me. If we can't forgive and recognize that we, ourselves, are also flawed our humanity will escape us every time. Forgiving is really a gift to yourself.

I believe the connection is still there but the farther we crawl into ourselves the farther we get from it. I see the connection in my work as I work with children in need and each and every time there is one success it forgives the thousands of failures and gives me hope that some of those failures will eventually turn into successes. This is how I find the strength to live the life I've imagined...which I believe is a Thoreau quote actually.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Maybe she was so used to getting what she wanted easily that she never learned to have a drive to go after what it is she wants. She might actually have to learn it. Besides that, fear of failing is crippling. The only way for her to get over this is to do what she is afraid of which is what she can't do. Horrible cycle.
> 
> Have you tried telling her you'd be there to catch her if she fails and then help her back up to try again at whatever her dreams may be? -or- talking to her about how you are frustrated and why?


I feel like I've been catching her in some way or another for about 15 years now. I think a big part of the problem is that she's never HAD to do anything.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Ah, but that's the tricky part.
> 
> "I'll be there to catch you when you fall..."
> 
> ...


I wonder if there are ways to make this clear without words then? My husband does it by being there when I do fall every time but I'm willing to try. How do you get this across in action when a person is not willing to try because of fear.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I feel like I've been catching her in some way or another for about 15 years now. I think a big part of the problem is that she's never HAD to do anything.


Then it's not fear of failing it's lack of motivation. You have to give her a reason to do.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Bob,

I'm not big on Church either - but I do think there are a lot of spiritual connections in this world that we often don't see. What happened to you that day was obviously very, very special.

Thank you for sharing.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> My wife has said many times that she's not my mom - knowing that there are parallels between them. And she's right - she's not my mother.
> 
> My Mom had a rough upbringing - her family was poor, there was some physical abuse, didn't finish high school because she had to get a job to help feed her family, etc. Some of the stories I heard from her friends after she had died were very revealing. I wish I had known more about her past when she was alive.
> 
> ...


I get it completely. I'll give you my example. My entire life I have wanted to be a doctor. This was something that consumed me, was my passion and something I had enormous interest in. I would literally go to the library and read medical books, talk for hours with our doctor neighbor about surgeries and go nuts when he took me to his office so I could see everything. Everybody knew I would succeed and started to put pressure on me. 
While in college, I got pregnant and dropped out. Both college and med school would have to wait. I was a SAHM.
Years later despite what job I had, I always told myself this was just temporary because in reality, I am a going to be a doctor. That's what "set me apart", at least in my mind.
I have had numerous opportunities in the years to finish college and go to med school but I never have. Why? Because this was something that was so built up in my mind and permeated every fiber of my being and fear came over me. What if I failed? Then what am I left with?
I never achieved what I wanted. Now, realisticly at 39, I don't see medical school in my future. College yes, M.D., no. Pity.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I wonder if there are ways to make this clear without words then? My husband does it by being there when I do fall every time but I'm willing to try. How do you get this across in action when a person is not willing to try because of fear.


We cannot own the response of another.

Their situation dictates what they will do.

A therapist once told me, "Anything you fix she doesn't have to"

Be mindful of that.

Wolf speaks of conflict as the spark of sexual attraction. The truth is that discomfort and conflict are the spark of human achievement.

Brennan is quite uncomfortable in her situation. But, is there a greater likelihood of her finding relief by 1) ignoring it and appeasing her husband or 2) self examination and the accompanying angst

We all must - ultimately - face ourselves.

There is no way around it.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton said:


> Then it's not fear of failing it's lack of motivation. You have to give her a reason to do.


Same deal as with Brennan's husband. How do you motivate someone who is comfortable but unhappy? How do you create almost a false sense of urgency?

Filing for divorce, or having an affair seems to be a pretty effective way to bring about change in a marriage.

Or I could tell her that I'm selling the house, buying a large trailer, and finally dedicating my life to becoming a rock star, and that she'll need to get a good job to support us until I get my first record deal.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I get it completely. I'll give you my example. My entire life I have wanted to be a doctor. This was something that consumed me, was my passion and something I had enormous interest in. I would literally go to the library and read medical books, talk for hours with our doctor neighbor about surgeries and go nuts when he took me to his office so I could see everything. Everybody knew I would succeed and started to put pressure on me.
> While in college, I got pregnant and dropped out. Both college and med school would have to wait. I was a SAHM.
> Years later despite what job I had, I always told myself this was just temporary because in reality, I am a going to be a doctor. That's what "set me apart", at least in my mind.
> I have had numerous opportunities in the years to finish college and go to med school but I never have. Why? Because this was something that was so built up in my mind and permeated every fiber of my being and fear came over me. What if I failed? Then what am I left with?
> I never achieved what I wanted. Now, realisticly at 39, I don't see medical school in my future. College yes, M.D., no. Pity.


You should do the M.D. You would be a practicing doctor by 50. Hopefully, you'll be an OBGYN because I'll most likely be going through menopause at that point and could use the care. lol

But seriously, why would age ever stop you. Thirty-nine is hardly old.


----------



## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Same deal as with Brennan's husband. How do you motivate someone who is comfortable but unhappy? How do you create almost a false sense of urgency?
> 
> Filing for divorce, or having an affair seems to be a pretty effective way to bring about change in a marriage.
> 
> Or I could tell her that I'm selling the house, buying a large trailer, and finally dedicating my life to becoming a rock star, and that she'll need to get a good job to support us until I get my first record deal.


I would tell her you're ready to leave. Give her the reality of the urgency of your situation, just be sure you're really ready to leave. I'm guessing that you're in a similar place...unhappy but comfortable.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Everything you're writing is very true and resonates with me. If we can't forgive and recognize that we, ourselves, are also flawed our humanity will escape us every time. Forgiving is really a gift to yourself.
> 
> I believe the connection is still there but the farther we crawl into ourselves the farther we get from it. I see the connection in my work as I work with children in need and each and every time there is one success it forgives the thousands of failures and gives me hope that some of those failures will eventually turn into successes. This is how I find the strength to live the life I've imagined...which I believe is a Thoreau quote actually.


That’s what a lot of people just don’t get Trenton. They just don’t get that forgiving is for themselves. I also believe that if somebody asks us for our forgiveness then undoubtedly we should give it to them in a heartfelt way. It doesn’t mean that we are prepared to accept ever again what we are forgiving them for. That way we just open ourselves up for abuse.

That’s truly fabulous with your work for children in need.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> I get it completely. I'll give you my example. My entire life I have wanted to be a doctor. This was something that consumed me, was my passion and something I had enormous interest in. I would literally go to the library and read medical books, talk for hours with our doctor neighbor about surgeries and go nuts when he took me to his office so I could see everything. Everybody knew I would succeed and started to put pressure on me.
> While in college, I got pregnant and dropped out. Both college and med school would have to wait. I was a SAHM.
> Years later despite what job I had, I always told myself this was just temporary because in reality, I am a going to be a doctor. That's what "set me apart", at least in my mind.
> I have had numerous opportunities in the years to finish college and go to med school but I never have. Why? Because this was something that was so built up in my mind and permeated every fiber of my being and fear came over me. What if I failed? Then what am I left with?
> I never achieved what I wanted. Now, realisticly at 39, I don't see medical school in my future. College yes, M.D., no. Pity.


My wife got her nursing degree - and then started having health problems.

I know she can't do 12 hour night shifts, but I'm SURE there must be some way for her to use her degree. But, she doesn't HAVE to figure that out, because we are doing "ok" on my income alone.

Of course her self esteem would be higher - and we'd be doing FANTASTIC financially - if she could find a reasonable job.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> We cannot own the response of another.
> 
> Their situation dictates what they will do.
> 
> ...


No, I agree with you but we can stand up and say that we're not going to tolerate it anymore. Then we can change ourselves with more insight into what we want and what we're willing to take. The problem is that in tolerating it we are part of the problem.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton said:


> I would tell her you're ready to leave. Give her the reality of the urgency of your situation, just be sure you're really ready to leave. I'm guessing that you're in a similar place...unhappy but comfortable.


BUT I JUST FOUGHT TO GET HER BACK!!!

"Honey - now that you've stopped seeking attention from other men over the internet, I think its time we talk about a divorce."

Oh, the irony...

:scratchhead:

But seriously - this attention from other guys crap was her way of avoiding this very issue. A diversion. She was running away from her problems. And now that she's done with her little "escape", hopefully this is one of the things WE will work together to figure out.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Now, realisticly at 39, I don't see medical school in my future.


Wanna start a rock band?

All I need is a singer, a guitar player, a drummer and a songwriter.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton,
College for son number one next year, 5 years later college for son number two. 2 more years of college for me. Add to that 4 years med school, 2-3 years residency. and a TON of debt. That makes it unreasonable now.

**Hey the upside to never becoming a doctor is I don't have to worry about running in to Scanner at conventions**

Har har. Totally kidding, Dr. Luv.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> No, I agree with you but we can stand up and say that we're not going to tolerate it anymore. Then we can change ourselves with more insight into what we want and what we're willing to take. The problem is that in tolerating it we are part of the problem.


We can say it or - more effectively - we can show it.

They do - and will - see it.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> BUT I JUST FOUGHT TO GET HER BACK!!!
> 
> "Honey - now that you've stopped seeking attention from other men over the internet, I think its time we talk about a divorce."
> 
> ...


Ha! Sorry about that oversight. I didn't realize. She just checked back into the relationship, gotcha. Then that would sound a bit off. Still, if you've felt it maybe you should address it. If she doesn't recognize the seriousness of her actions and is always made to feel comfortable in your relationship it's just a matter of time before she looks for another outlet.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> College for son number one next year, 5 years later college for son number two. 2 more years of college for me. Add to that 4 years med school, 2-3 years residency. and a TON of debt. That makes it unreasonable now.
> 
> **Hey the upside to never becoming a doctor is I don't have to worry about running in to Scanner at conventions**
> ...


TOO, TOO, TOO FUNNY!

I won't continue on this but just wanted to say there are TONS of scholarships out there where you write essays, yadda, yadda and I've watched my 36 year old best friend of 25 years get her masters with crazy things going on in her life and she did it at a cost of under $10k...for a masters! She had amazing grades, wrote thousands of essays and between grants and scholarships that's all she owes. If you need some links let me know.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Ha! Sorry about that oversight. I didn't realize. She just checked back into the relationship, gotcha. Then that would sound a bit off. Still, if you've felt it maybe you should address it. If she doesn't recognize the seriousness of her actions and is always made to feel comfortable in your relationship it's just a matter of time before she looks for another outlet.


This is truly the irony of all of this.

I share a bit of Brennan's pain in that my evolution of appeaser to husband has/will cause a shift in my wife's perspective.

It's quite possible when she's done working on herself that she won't want me.

I would hate for that to be true, but I'd understand it and be happy for her growth.

Nothing worth having isn't worth taking a risk to get.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Hopefully now we work on the "reasonable" issues that we were ignoring back before she put us into Crisis mode.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Conrad said:


> This is truly the irony of all of this.
> 
> I share a bit of Brennan's pain in that my evolution of appeaser to husband has/will cause a shift in my wife's perspective.
> 
> ...


Undeniably.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Wanna start a rock band?
> 
> All I need is a singer, a guitar player, a drummer and a songwriter.


What? Do you play the xylophone?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

No - I play Bass guitar!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Wanna start a rock band?
> 
> All I need is a singer, a guitar player, a drummer and a songwriter.


And a name for the band. "The Partying [email protected]" has a nice ring to it. With a name like that you are expected to jump up and stage and gyrate around Freddie Mercury style. So maybe that name is a tad much for a nice guy from the Mid West.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> No - I play Bass guitar!


Oh, that's much cooler actually. You must kick butt if you play Band Hero. I want you in my band. We suck.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> And a name for the band. "The Partying [email protected]" has a nice ring to it. With a name like that you are expected to jump up and stage and gyrate around Freddie Mercury style. So maybe that name is a tad much for a nice guy from the Mid West.


I just want to know where the vacuum cleaner fits into his act.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I just want to know where the vacuum cleaner fits into his act.


Holy crap that was funny!!!!

:rofl:

God the image in my head right now. And why did a$$less chaps suddenly come into the picture.

:rofl:


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Don't knock the Dyson!

At one point when I thought divorce was imminent and I was thinking about asset division, I had the Dyson on MY side of the list.

That thing is like what you'd expect if Tim Allen (Home Improvement) got ahold of an old Hoover or something!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Holy crap that was funny!!!!
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> ...


All chaps are a$$less - otherwise they'd just be pants. (frequent topic of discussion in college for some reason...)

Last time I share MY dreams around here!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Noooooo share your dreams. You have talked about returning to guitar. Tone doesn't come across well at all here. I really wasn't mocking you at all. I am sorry.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> God the image in my head right now. And why did a$$less chaps suddenly come into the picture.
> 
> :rofl:


Because you have a dirty mind? haha


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
What style music do you play?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

NG, I always wanted to be a singer hence my Band Hero obsession. I do wish that they had better selections than Taylor Swift or Pat Benatar. I no doubt drive my husband insane.

Share your dreams, it just makes you seem like an awesome guy. Change your nick already...sheesh.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Yeah - I can hear all the middle aged women talking about my concert the next day...

"And after the bass solo, he came out in a$$less chaps with a Dyson and cleaned up the whole stage!!!"


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Rock mostly. Amazing how I can not play for 5 years and then just pick it up and easily play along with just about any ACDC song! Not much to it - but its loud, has a lot of energy and takes me back to younger days!

We don't have Band Hero, but we have some of the Singstar games. Back in the beginning of our separation when my wife would have the kids on Friday nights, I'd get a cheap bottle of wine and sing until I lost my voice! Kept me out of any real trouble!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

OK, I just came from the husband farting thread to read this. I am cracking up here. That is the funniest thing I've read, ever. LOLOLOL


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Yeah - I can hear all the middle aged women talking about my concert the next day...
> 
> "And after the bass solo, he came out in a$$less chaps with a Dyson and cleaned up the whole stage!!!"


"What a nice guy!"


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Conrad said:


> "What a nice guy!"


EXACTLY!!!

They'd marry me, but they'd sleep with Kid Rock!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
You rock! Yesterday night I told Trenton I would drive 200 miles to buy her a drink. I would do the same for you. 

Wait, was I just called middle aged? Eeeep!! wth?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Rock mostly. Amazing how I can not play for 5 years and then just pick it up and easily play along with just about any ACDC song! Not much to it - but its loud, has a lot of energy and takes me back to younger days!
> 
> We don't have Band Hero, but we have some of the Singstar games. Back in the beginning of our separation when my wife would have the kids on Friday nights, I'd get a cheap bottle of wine and sing until I lost my voice! Kept me out of any real trouble!


I've been there, done that and it's great. My husband is such a trooper that he'll get a babysitter so we can share the bottle of cheap wine, he bangs on drums and...swear to God...I put the mic in my cleavage and play guitar while screaming into the mic. So a$$le$$ chaps and a dyson has nothing on me.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> EXACTLY!!!
> 
> They'd marry me, but they'd sleep with Kid Rock!


I wouldn't screw Kid Pebble if he was the last man on earth.

Any guy who plays bass guitar and loves ACDC is just awesome in my book. 

Shook me all night long is one of the greatest songs ever. Now if you happen to tell me you like Rush, my head might explode from awesomeness.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> NG,
> You rock! Yesterday night I told Trenton I would drive 200 miles to buy her a drink. I would do the same for you.
> 
> Wait, was I just called middle aged? Eeeep!! wth?


TAM Conference?...oh that would lead to nothing but trouble.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I actually kind of hate Rush...that whiney, nasaly voice just doesn't sound like rock'n'roll to me!

Trenton - I "think" you have me beat! Husband sounds pretty cool...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo is going to kill us. This was supposed to be a serious thread and now we are talking Dysons, chaps and Getty Lee. LOL.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

These things always have a way of turning around again. By page 10 we'll be back to some real dark, deep psychoanalysis again - probably someone admitting they saw one of their parents in a$$less chaps when they were five. Then someone will make a fart or **** joke, and we'll be right back in the gutter again.

Its why I keep coming back!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Brennan said:


> Deejo is going to kill us. This was supposed to be a serious thread and now we are talking Dysons, chaps and Getty Lee. LOL.


Nope. Not at all. Everything is going as planned. I knew if I could tempt you with my charms, or a$$less chaps ... that the 'banter' wouldn't gum up other threads.

I have no issue.

Cripes, you're all over the map and I'm the one with ADD.

And hey, speaking of random:



Trenton said:


> I really don't know. I've never experienced that. If my husband came home smelling like ***** I'd be stalking his bum. It would be funny if it turned out I was stalking his bum because it smelled like my bum.


You can't find this kind of quality entertainment on just any old message board.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Nope. Not at all. Everything is going as planned. I knew if I could tempt you with my charms, or a$$less chaps ... that the 'banter' wouldn't gum up other threads.
> 
> I have no issue.
> 
> ...


Hey...I had a good point there!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> Hey...I had a good point there!


The implied logic is dizzying.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> The implied logic is dizzying.


That's logic? ha!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Nope. Not at all. Everything is going as planned. I knew if I could tempt you with my charms, or a$$less chaps ... that the 'banter' wouldn't gum up other threads.
> 
> I have no issue.
> 
> ...


You are the all powerful Oz. "Everything is going as planned".


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Back to some more serious stuff....I have been thinking about it since I posted my story this morning and something came to mind about my husband.

His Father, is exceptionally passive towards his wife. Basically she can do whatever she wants and he goes along with it. This man is not this way in business however and is highly successful and revered in his industry. JUST like my husband!!!

Granted, my husband is more passive aggressive in that we had alot of underlying issues which they did not but the end result is the same. He basically stays out of her way and comes running when she needs him. He gave up all his hobbies to "antique shop" with her. They travel the world looking for bull**** stuff that she likes and he goes along with it. At this point, I think he really believes he likes it. He has lost his identity. JUST like my husband.

And now the barf inducing part......I see some similarities between my MIL and I. A person I largely despise because of her behavior. Oh my.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Back to some more serious stuff....I have been thinking about it since I posted my story this morning and something came to mind about my husband.
> 
> His Father, is exceptionally passive towards his wife. Basically she can do whatever she wants and he goes along with it. This man is not this way in business however and is highly successful and revered in his industry. JUST like my husband!!!
> 
> ...


Knowing this gives you the ability to change it though.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Exactly!
We are not the same in that I think she purposely manipulated him and he just gave up. She wants things her way, always. She is materialistic to epic porportions and gossips about every body. Her friends are her friends because of their position in life. So, in those ways I am nothing like her.

HOWEVER, I am much more dominate than my husband relationship wise and maybe he has "given up" because of that.

Another part of me thinks he saw this growing up and therefore knew he wanted a more dominant woman and that's why he was so attracted to me.

Either way, I blame her. LOL. Crap, and I have to see her next week. Aggh. Great time to have a "revelation" of sorts.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Knowing this gives you the ability to change it though.


The first step towards a new and brighter world


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> Another part of me thinks he saw this growing up and therefore knew he wanted a more dominant woman and that's why he was so attracted to me.


Makes some sense.

And of course you are at least aware that this dynamic isn't altogether healthy. Otherwise you wouldn't be here looking for ways to make things better.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Exactly!
> We are not the same in that I think she purposely manipulated him and he just gave up. She wants things her way, always. She is materialistic to epic porportions and gossips about every body. Her friends are her friends because of their position in life. So, in those ways I am nothing like her.
> 
> HOWEVER, I am much more dominate than my husband relationship wise and maybe he has "given up" because of that.
> ...


Believe it or not, it's the perfect time.

It's the perfect time because your eyes are finally open.

And, when you see them together, you can remain detached, calm and curious about what you see.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

This is so weird. He was very forward years ago and now is like his Dad without the ass kissing part. Oh, he has no trouble telling me to go to hell if he is mad. LOL. His Dad would never say that.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

We talked just a few hours ago. I told him that he used to be so confident and secure in who he was and what changed? His response, he was never confident or secure, ever. WHAT?! This Mensa member has no confidence?! I would KILL to have his intelligence. 
He said he has spent his whole life trying to project confidence, when he had none. Again, WHAT?!?!
He told me the thing he loves/loved most about me is my confidence and that made him a better man and open to new things. He still thinks I "exude" it. Truth be told, I don't have it anymore. I have been faking it for years. Apparently, he has been faking it his entire lifetime. 
As of today, his job is now in jeopardy. His company is downsizing by year end and now looking to get rid of the software development department. Him being the senior project manager for many of their products makes him likely the first target. This will crush him. Totally crush him. 
Jesus. What now?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

How old is he Brennan?

How much are you prepared to shake things up?

Of all of the positive steps that both I and the ex have taken, none of them would have occurred had we stayed together and tried to 'tough it out'.

The only way she could rediscover her self reliance was to not have anyone to rely on.

The only way I could establish my own sense of value was to have no one else available to tell me I'm valuable.

Each of us gaining those things swept away the cruft of blaming one another for the piddling little annoyances that we used to think were so big.

I'm not suggesting you take divorce for a spin. But you may benefit from de-coupling for a while.

It's apparent to me how invested you are in recovery or rediscovering what you used to have. What is equally apparent is that he's in no hurry. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it obviously puts more frustration and resentment on your balance sheet.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brennan said:


> We talked just a few hours ago. I told him that he used to be so confident and secure in who he was and what changed? His response, he was never confident or secure, ever. WHAT?! This Mensa member has no confidence?! I would KILL to have his intelligence.
> He said he has spent his whole life trying to project confidence, when he had none. Again, WHAT?!?!
> He told me the thing he loves/loved most about me is my confidence and that made him a better man and open to new things. He still thinks I "exude" it. Truth be told, I don't have it anymore. I have been faking it for years. Apparently, he has been faking it his entire lifetime.
> As of today, his job is now in jeopardy. His company is downsizing by year end and now looking to get rid of the software development department. Him being the senior project manager for many of their products makes him likely the first target. This will crush him. Totally crush him.
> Jesus. What now?


If I can don my cheerleader outfit for a bit....

This represents a huge opportunity for you to support him. You've just opened a huge door for intimacy with him confessing his fears to you.

Follow up on it.

But, this time... listen to him.

Don't react with WTF... don't argue.

Just watch his body language and comment on it while you're speaking to him.

"This really upsets you. All this faking must have made you feel like you were made of tin. Has to be exhausting keeping up the facade..."

What you'll be doing is giving him psychological air - while confirming (for him) that you - alone - are the woman who was sent to this earth to actually understand and "get" him.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo,
I just added to my previous post. Right now is NOT the right time to try and shake things up with him. Right now I am praying he gets through all this. He came home tonight looking awful with tears in his eyes. He has never faced this before, ever. I fear what is next.
He is turning 40 in March.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan, I think losing of job is the number one confidence killer for my husband, it sort of defines him and gives him value. I think the fact that he came to you vulnerable shows that his lack of attention to you might come from inner turmoil inside of him. Which means more patience and understanding on your behalf. This really stinks but it might be an opportunity for a bigger connection.

If your husband is in software/computers he should be able to find another job even in this economy. Maybe he can start looking just in case? Either way, you're both in for rough times. My Mom is actually a computer programmer who has always had quite a few job offers and she was just recently talking about how it's the one field that hasn't really felt the hit of the bad economy...apparently that's not all that true.

I know you're out in Texas and I'm not sure what your husband does exactly but there are quite a few jobs in Austin in that field as Dell, Microsoft and other big companies have a hub there. 

Maybe express to him that this can be considered a possible opportunity for him to gain confidence, re-define himself and grow stronger together as a couple. If he looks at you as confident and envies this, he might also resent it.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Conrad said:


> If I can don my cheerleader outfit for a bit....
> 
> This represents a huge opportunity for you to support him. You've just opened a huge door for intimacy with him confessing his fears to you.
> 
> ...


Bob, you are SO right. God, I am such an idiot sometimes. What I saw tonight was a man in total pain, fearing failure for the first time in his life. That's the ONE thing he hasn't experienced on a cerebral level. 
He worked at his last company for 9 years before it got absorbed into his current company. He has been there ever since. Before that, he worked at his Father's company. He has never been fired or laid off, ever. I know if this happens, it will hurt him deeply. 
I know it's ironic, the pain he is going through. When I got laid off, I was told "shake it off" and "move on" and he helped me update my resume. That's not what I needed. I needed to be listened to. I was scared and sad. 
Tonight he has to come face to face with his potential lay off. It sucks and hurts to see it happen to someone you love so deeply. What is sick, twisted and sad is that a small sliver of me has a sick perversion in knowing that he is finally going through this, as I have. Part of me doesn't want to hand hold. A huge part of me wants to tell him exactly as he told me.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Bob, you are SO right. God, I am such an idiot sometimes. What I saw tonight was a man in total pain, fearing failure for the first time in his life. That's the ONE thing he hasn't experienced on a cerebral level.
> He worked at his last company for 9 years before it got absorbed into his current company. He has been there ever since. Before that, he worked at his Father's company. He has never been fired or laid off, ever. I know if this happens, it will hurt him deeply.
> I know it's ironic, the pain he is going through. When I got laid off, I was told "shake it off" and "move on" and he helped me update my resume. That's not what I needed. I needed to be listened to. I was scared and sad.
> Tonight he has to come face to face with his potential lay off. It sucks and hurts to see it happen to someone you love so deeply. What is sick, twisted and sad is that a small sliver of me has a sick perversion in knowing that he is finally going through this, as I have. Part of me doesn't want to hand hold. A huge part of me wants to tell him exactly as he told me.


If you want to save your marriage and you want him to come back to you and you want to grow together in a positive direction, then push the tit for tat mentality out of your mind completely. Indulge in it because it's real and justified, but decide what you really want and if your husband is who you really want then consider this before giving the cold shoulder and telling him to get over it. You know how unfair it was to you so you know better than anyone how cruel it would be.

After your marriage recovers, then I think is a good time to bring up your hurt feelings so that he does know the pain he caused you and knows to not do it again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deejo,
Your definition is beautifully stated. 

My baggage: 
- Mild paranoia
- A fear of financial mishap
- An overly harsh self view

The paranoia is likely a side effect of living inside a giant bong for much of my youth. The fear of financial mishap came straight from my mother - a child of the depression. The overly harsh self view - likely another legacy of the bong. 

Eventually - being around a sane and healthy partner allowed me to shed my bags......




Deejo said:


> I find the dynamics of this stuff just so incredibly fascinating.
> 
> I don't recall the poster or thread, but I believe it was you that referred the gentleman to Athol's blog. He returned to post that he thought the blog was simply a$$holish, male posturing and disrespectful to women.
> 
> ...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Double post.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton,
Agreed!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Trenton,
> Agreed!


We almost moved to Austin, TX this past summer for a job offer for my husband. It's a really neat place. Have you visited? We went and I actually wanted to move there. Then again, I'm from Jorsey.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

I love Austin but only because it reminded me of San Diego, our home town. Our oldest son is graduating this May and hubby wants to move back to SD. He also wants to be closer to his friends and family. I know he feels a disconnect being out here but so do I! Our youngest is 13 and says he wants to move but he has never lived in CA. He has no friends in CA. He was born here! All his friends are here. He doesn't know life in CA.This is a pivotal time for any child. I don't want to uproot him and move him to a place, that while I love, might hurt him. 
Does my heart want to move? Yes!!! God, San Diego is beyond amazing. Beaches, scenery, gorgeous people, things to do. Houston? Fat people in tight jeans, chew in their mouths and guns in their glove box. Yeah, I want to leave but is it the right time?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> I love Austin but only because it reminded me of San Diego, our home town. Our oldest son is graduating this May and hubby wants to move back to SD. He wants to be closer to his friends and family. I know he feels a disconnect being out here but so do I! Our youngest is 13 and says he wants to move but he has never lived in CA. He has no friends in CA. He was born here! All his friends are here. He doesn't know life in CA. He has this idea of surfing and skiing but he doesn't really know what is in store. He is 13 now. That is a pivotal time for any child. I don't want to uproot him and move him to a place, that while I love, might hurt him.
> Does my heart want to move? Yes!!! God, San Diego is beyond amazing. Beaches, scenery, gorgeous people, things to do. Houston? Fat people in tight jeans, chew in their mouths and guns in their glove box. Yeah, I want to leave but is it the right time?


You know your son will thank you! San Diego or anywhere in Texas...hmmm?

Yes, San Diego every time!!!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Sorry to hear Brennan - but keep your eyes peeled for the silver lining. He's in a good field.

If he has to go through some type of career change, maybe that will help him find that confidence that he feels he's been missing.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Sounds like you got your shake up.

All that is really required is a drastic shift in your relationship dynamic. I think Conrad's advice is good.

Your job is actually pretty easy. As for your husband, he can either acknowledge your support, love and understanding, or ignore it, turn inward, and bask in his own self-doubt. That would not go in the plus column.

I had a lay off scare a little over a year ago. No such thing as good timing where being laid off is concerned.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> I love Austin but only because it reminded me of San Diego, our home town. Our oldest son is graduating this May and hubby wants to move back to SD. He wants to be closer to his friends and family. I know he feels a disconnect being out here but so do I! Our youngest is 13 and says he wants to move but he has never lived in CA. He has no friends in CA. He was born here! All his friends are here. He doesn't know life in CA. He has this idea of surfing and skiing but he doesn't really know what is in store. He is 13 now. That is a pivotal time for any child. I don't want to uproot him and move him to a place, that while I love, might hurt him.
> Does my heart want to move? Yes!!! God, San Diego is beyond amazing. Beaches, scenery, gorgeous people, things to do. Houston? Fat people in tight jeans, chew in their mouths and guns in their glove box. Yeah, I want to leave but is it the right time?


If you were going to uproot a kid, you could do a lot worse than San Diego.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Sounds like you got your shake up.
> 
> All that is really required is a drastic shift in your relationship dynamic. I think Conrad's advice is good.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Listen to Conrad and Deejo...this could be a great opportunity in a lot of different ways.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> If you were going to uproot a kid, you could do a lot worse than San Diego.


I know. Having said that though, he has zero friends out there and on top of that our oldest got a half ride to Rice. Move, really?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan said:


> I know. Having said that though, he has zero friends out there and on top of that our oldest got a half ride to Rice. Move, really?


What kind of family does your husband have there - anyone that your son is familiar with that could help with the transition? Grandparents, cousins, anything?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

All family lives there, both sets. I think perhaps MLC is setting in for him. He talks about his friends often. 
Having said that, what is best for his sons? A son who got a partial scholarship to Rice University "the Harvard of the South" and his youngest who literally knows nobody in CA besides family? Uproot? Really?
Look, I want to move back more than you could ever imagine. Texas is awful to me. I am not a trophy wife and bimbo and my opinion matters little here. I hate it. Having said that, our youngest is 13, has never lived in CA and has zero friends there. Our oldest just got accepted to a fantastic school and my husband wants to toss it all aside? I understand where he is coming from, I just don't think now is the right time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brennan said:


> All family lives there, both sets. I think perhaps MLC is setting in for him. He talks about his friends often.
> Having said that, what is best for his sons? A son who got a partial scholarship to Rice University "the Harvard of the South" and his youngest who literally knows nobody in CA besides family? Uproot? Really?
> Look, I want to move back more than you could ever imagine. Texas is awful to me. I am not a trophy wife and bimbo and my opinion matters little here. I hate it. Having said that, our youngest is 13, has never lived in CA and has zero friends there. Our oldest just got accepted to a fantastic school and my husband wants to toss it all aside? I understand where he is coming from, I just don't think now is the right time.


I'm going to be blunt.

**** all that.

Do what's right for both of you.

Stop putting other people (including kids) first.

This is for keeps.

Go for it.

In the end, the kids will do what's right for them.

You can count on that.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I agree -- I think Deejo's definitely of "baggage" is spot on and I love this thread. How I wish this kind of banter and openness took place in the Ladies' Lounge! But hey--it is where it is! 

My baggage would take almost a book to write out, but I'll offer the brief version and if you're interested, I'll tell ya more! 

1) I was physically abused by my parents as a child: hit with wood from knees to shoulders on a daily basis until my parents got tired, and yep it messed with my head. Obviously there's a lot more to this, but I'll just say I was glad I survived to move out. 

2) I was raped in college. 

3) My exH was physically, mentally, emotionally and verbally abusive and I totally didn't even realize it because although he would kick our dog or punch holes in the wall right BY my head, he didn't ball up his fist and hit me so I didn't think of it as abuse. 

So in summary, I was codependent, PTSD fairly severely, had trust issues, and above that...had NO IDEA how to be a differentiated, assertive individual in a mature marriage. Sooooo, it was a mess! LOL  It took a LOT of work to get all those pink elephants off my back and even out of the livingroom, but I did actually do the work and I still do! 

Boy I bet you're all glad you're taking my advice now, huh? :rofl:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> I agree -- I think Deejo's definitely of "baggage" is spot on and I love this thread. How I wish this kind of banter and openness took place in the Ladies' Lounge! But hey--it is where it is!
> 
> My baggage would take almost a book to write out, but I'll offer the brief version and if you're interested, I'll tell ya more!
> 
> ...


Love & Appreciate your Honesty! It's amazing that men think fitness tests are an odd thing when so many women are abused in one way or another by the opposite sex.

Kudos to you for all you've overcome and all that you do to help others overcome. 

Ladies Lounge, Men's Clubhouse...it's all the same thing really isn't it? Two sexes trying to get along while understanding our obvious differences.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan, I'm with Conrad on this one...the kids will find their way, focus on both you and him now. It's time.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> Your definition is beautifully stated.
> 
> My baggage:
> ...


I don't think that last bit can be overstated enough.

I do think when it comes to baggage there is definitely a sense of _Yours ... Mine ... and Ours_

I was aware of and accepted dealing with the ex's baggage. My ability to navigate her issues with confidence was what made her fall in love with me.

The OURs baggage began to fill almost immediately after I proposed, and hit critical when we had children. The OURs baggage that became our undoing was her unwavering and overriding need to absolutely always, always make the children THE priority. Most fathers aren't going to have an issue with their children taking a priority role. But ... for the marriage to remain healthy they cannot remain the priority to the exclusion of all other life events. Kids simply aren't that delicate or needy.

Brennan's post regarding the well-being of her boys hit a nerve with me. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, nor am I comparing your relationship to mine. Your comments highlighted a very big piece of OUR baggage.

The IMMEDIATE needs of the children overrode everything ... including taking into account the long term benefits and needs for the children, in the form of a bonded, healthy, happy family, including mom and dad.

She would prioritize their needs over everything else. Part of HER baggage was that she desperately needed to be a 'good' mother.
It never ever occurred to her that failing to give our relationship any priority or attention was itself jeopardizing the well being of the children.

I guess you could make a similar contrast between my ex and her need to be supermom, against a workaholic dad who always put work before family.

He believes he is providing what the family needs. The workaholic believes his actions are beneficial for the long term well being of his family. But ... if neither his spouse or his kids ever get to see him, or have their immediate needs met by him, his actions despite good intentions, put the entire family at risk.

We see this one a lot around here as well.

So, for those husbands, wifes, moms, and dads that balance the yours, mine, and ours ... kudos. You have my admiration.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I deeply appreciate the ladies sharing their personal experiences where abuse or trauma was involved.

A lot of what people are dealing with stems from deep stuff. Stuff you couldn't possibly be aware of based simply on how someone comes across.

I've stated before, that 2 of the women that had the biggest impact on my life were sexually traumatized. I find it exceedingly alarming how prevalent this is. I believe the number remains at 1 in 3 women will suffer some level of sexual abuse in their lifetime.

I just wish it wasn't so, especially having a young daughter of my own.

Sex is complex enough without compounding it with negativity or trauma.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I don't think that last bit can be overstated enough.
> 
> I do think when it comes to baggage there is definitely a sense of _Yours ... Mine ... and Ours_
> 
> ...


This really struck a nerve with me because...

1. You brought up a common problem in relationships which is when the woman places the children's needs above the relationship with her husband.

It's more a problem than most women realize. They think that it's what they're suppose to be doing. They think they are better Mom's and Wife's because of it. It wasn't until my youngest got out of our bed at the ripe age of four that my husband expressed how sick of the kids he was. Not that he didn't love them or think they deserved the best but that he was sick of giving up on everything he wanted and needed for them all the time.

He actually told me flat out that he was jealous. I couldn't believe it, had no idea. He even told me...yes, our sex life was still good but rushed most of the time. I thought he was kidding. He wasn't. We changed this dynamic since our youngest has recently gotten older and it's been really great getting to know my partner again. Still, I'm sort of sad that this dynamic was happening without me knowing for the past 14 years.

2. You brought up my husband's flaw which is work and providing. I've never seen the two behaviors compared before. I'm going to try to use this same comparison to my husband and see if it helps him to empathize with me since he knows how he felt. It might help him to make a correlation because I believe he thinks that since he is only doing something that is thought of as good that it can't be harmful.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's MUCH more of a problem than most women realize.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

If I read your post incorrectly Deejo, then I apologize but here goes:

I don't think that having trepedations about yanking my 13 year old away from the only friends he has ever known and a school that he is triving in makes me prioritize my children over my relationship. I don't think telling my soon to be 18 year old son that sorry we don't live here anymore and can no longer afford your college tuition AND now the additional cost of room/board/meal plan makes me prioritize my children over my relationship.

Our relationship had the same problems out there as it does here. Of course I want to leave this place but he is using a potential move as a panacea for our problems rather than looking inwards.
Uprooting your kids because you are too selfish to work out your issues doesn't make me a crappy wife....it makes him a crappy father.

You make it sound like I tossed aside my marriage in place for my kids which is catagorically incorrect. He never fought for the marriage. He tossed ME aside.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You're going too wide and too deep Brennan.

The circumstances you described, brought up the circumstances I faced. That's it. No commentary on you or your choices whatsoever, only wanted to share mine.

And I've noted in the past, your circumstances sound more like mine in reverse. If we're picking sides, I'm still on yours.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo said:


> You're going too wide and too deep Brennan.
> 
> The circumstances you described, brought up the circumstances I faced. That's it. No commentary on you or your choices whatsoever, only wanted to share mine.
> 
> And I've noted in the past, your circumstances sound more like mine in reverse. If we're picking sides, I'm still on yours.


It certainly sounded like there was finger pointing and then the comments started coming in about how this is a big issue like somehow the dimise of my marriage is because I won't move.

:scratchhead:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> It certainly sounded like there was finger pointing and then the comments started coming in about how this is a big issue like somehow the dimise of my marriage is because I won't move.
> 
> :scratchhead:


All within reason. Your desire to stay behind and give your son this chance that he's worked so hard for is reasonable. I don't think anyone is going to debate that. But let's say I said choose staying for your son or moving to save your marriage? Would your decision alter?

By the way, kudos to your son. Awesome!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Trenton said:


> All within reason. Your desire to stay behind and give your son this chance that he's worked so hard for is reasonable. I don't think anyone is going to debate that. But let's say I said choose staying for your son or moving to save your marriage? Would your decision alter?
> 
> By the way, kudos to your son. Awesome!


Now that is a very interesting question. I guess it goes back to action again. What would HE be doing to fix our marriage. What actual steps would he be taking. If it was just the usual words, I would tell him to enjoy the seagulls without me.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Now that is a very interesting question. I guess it goes back to action again. What would HE be doing to fix our marriage. What actual steps would he be taking. If it was just the usual words, I would tell him to enjoy the seagulls without me.


So then you know if he doesn't change then you're willing to walk. You should tell him this even if he is going through a tough time. My opinion is he can take it and maybe needs a wake up call on all fronts.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Now that is a very interesting question. I guess it goes back to action again. What would HE be doing to fix our marriage. What actual steps would he be taking. If it was just the usual words, I would tell him to enjoy the seagulls without me.


Does he think it needs fixing?

If it looks just like his parent's marriage?

What has he ever known?


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

First, I wanted to comment on the concept Deejo verbalized of baggage that's YOURS, MINE and OURS. 

One thing that I found challenging as I did face my own demons when I was married to my exH was that I did all the counseling and all the homework and really practiced it during the week so I'd be a better person, and yet our marriage didn't get any better! :scratchhead: One of my weird "things" was that I didn't necessarily need to be "in control" of things but I was more comfortable when they were loosely planned so that things don't sneak up on me and take me by surprise. Surprise, for me, (at that time) was very bad and resulted in a PTSD reaction, which I've now learned some techniques to recognize and soothe. Anyway, I mistakenly thought that if all of it had to do with "me" and if I fixed myself, it would fix all the other stuff that was going on too. Of course I know now that thinking that way is oddly a protective way of thinking, because it means I have some control over it (not like controlling but like "I can prevent this"). The idea is that I can make an impact on outcome if I ... X, Y, and/or Z! This is actually false. It doesn't all revolve around me, and there are actually some things that just aren't mine! What I was failing to realize was that there is MY baggage, HIS baggage, and then OUR baggage. 

*MY* baggage would be my weaknesses, things that tempt me, making my words and actions match, etc. In addition, for me there was stuff like learning to value myself, learning to speak up for myself, learning to say "no" and be safe, learning to nurture myself, learning that love does not equal sex, learning I can live a happy and fulfilling life on my own, learning how to disagree respectfully (not abusively), learning how to be angry, etc. Finally there's also stuff like periodically reviewing the Love Extinguishers and noting which ones I need to work on...renewing the Love Kindlers and reminding myself to not get lax...and any other ongoing personal growth. 

*HIS* baggage I choose to state fairly briefly here so as not to engage in gossip or "ex-bashing" but rather just to give some examples. It was 100% his responsibility to face and deal with his illness (the one that required a diet change but certainly one that's doable and not too restrictive). It was 100% his responsibility to face and deal with his diagnosed mental illness--and to acknowledge that it could harm the family and thus to try to protect us from that harm. He needed to go to the p-doc, take the medication, go to counseling and group, and then practice what he learned. It was 100% his responsibility to put the effort in toward being faithful. It was 100% his responsibility to face and deal with his verbal, emotional and mental abuse--by doing things like not blaming us, taking personal responsibility and learning about anger on his own. 

Finally, *OUR* baggage was that we were polar opposites in the Myers-Briggs personality type (I'm INFP, he was ESTJ) so we did not understand each other, communicating was difficult, and the way we did things was complete opposites (As an introvert I love the coziness of "home" and he wants to go out all the time, he thinks there are "rules" and ways that things "should be" and I see everything as having some gray areas and options for some compromise, etc.) We also had extremely different love language so I didn't get a message of love when he thought he was doing something loving...and vice versa. So OUR baggage was that we would have had to work through all that respecting the other and reaching Mutual Understanding. 

I share all this because very often people take responsibility for their spouse's baggage...or think like I did "If I fix myself it should fix the marriage" and then when it doesn't, they're confused because they don't realize that an OUR BAGGAGE.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Affaircare said:


> First, I wanted to comment on the concept Deejo verbalized of baggage that's YOURS, MINE and OURS.
> 
> One thing that I found challenging as I did face my own demons when I was married to my exH was that I did all the counseling and all the homework and really practiced it during the week so I'd be a better person, and yet our marriage didn't get any better! :scratchhead: One of my weird "things" was that I didn't necessarily need to be "in control" of things but I was more comfortable when they were loosely planned so that things don't sneak up on me and take me by surprise. Surprise, for me, (at that time) was very bad and resulted in a PTSD reaction, which I've now learned some techniques to recognize and soothe. Anyway, I mistakenly thought that if all of it had to do with "me" and if I fixed myself, it would fix all the other stuff that was going on too. Of course I know now that thinking that way is oddly a protective way of thinking, because it means I have some control over it (not like controlling but like "I can prevent this"). The idea is that I can make an impact on outcome if I ... X, Y, and/or Z! This is actually false. It doesn't all revolve around me, and there are actually some things that just aren't mine! What I was failing to realize was that there is MY baggage, HIS baggage, and then OUR baggage.
> 
> ...


I think it's virtually impossible to have this kind of insight until you have come through the fire. If you had it going in - there wouldn't have been a fire in the first place.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LOL So true! If I had that sort of insight I'd have pissed it out! LOL... or at least my side of the street. I can't change him if'n he don't wanna!

And this is why I am SO thankful for Dear Hubby. He is the sane, healthy spouse that fits with me so we can work out his, mine and our baggage together.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> First, I wanted to comment on the concept Deejo verbalized of baggage that's YOURS, MINE and OURS.
> 
> One thing that I found challenging as I did face my own demons when I was married to my exH was that I did all the counseling and all the homework and really practiced it during the week so I'd be a better person, and yet our marriage didn't get any better! :scratchhead: One of my weird "things" was that I didn't necessarily need to be "in control" of things but I was more comfortable when they were loosely planned so that things don't sneak up on me and take me by surprise. Surprise, for me, (at that time) was very bad and resulted in a PTSD reaction, which I've now learned some techniques to recognize and soothe. Anyway, I mistakenly thought that if all of it had to do with "me" and if I fixed myself, it would fix all the other stuff that was going on too. Of course I know now that thinking that way is oddly a protective way of thinking, because it means I have some control over it (not like controlling but like "I can prevent this"). The idea is that I can make an impact on outcome if I ... X, Y, and/or Z! This is actually false. It doesn't all revolve around me, and there are actually some things that just aren't mine! What I was failing to realize was that there is MY baggage, HIS baggage, and then OUR baggage.
> 
> ...


I like your posts!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Long time ago, I realized that I was carrying a lot of baggage on my back. 

Life was not pleasant, I was crushed by the baggage I had on my back. I was out of breath. I couldn't climb anymore.............too tiring...........

I realized what I was carrying with me, I realized that I had to drop the baggage, the only way I could achieve peace and happiness in life is for myself to drop the baggage. 

I did, now I am relieved. 

Now I live my life carefree. 

Now life has become interesting. 

Now I want to be a woman and a human. 

Now I wish I could live to 100 years old and enjoy my life!!!


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Very often we blame others for our own unhappy life, and don't even think for a second why I let this bother me. 

People bring problems to themselves all the time,and all they see is why he did this and didn't do this. 

He forgot my birthday, I am so hurt! Why do you expect him to remember your birthday? He doesn't even remember his own birthday. 

He doesn't want to talk to me, I feel so alone. Have you ever tried to talk about interesting subjects? Have you ever tried to sound positive and he feels happy talking to you? 

He doesn't want to spend time with me, I feel so hurt! Do you make yourself a pleasant person to be around. Do you argue with him often or do you show appreciation to him often? 

People did this, people did that. I feel hurt. But never think for a second what I have done. 

Happy people work on themselves first. They make themselves pleasant to be around. They don't get offended easily, they know that others are just human. People say things and do things without much thinking about others. Happy people are also humble, they don't think too high of themselves, they can laugh at themselves. 

As we grow up, we store a lot of garbage in our hearts, jealousy, resentment, worries, hatred, etc. The only thing we can do is to get rid of the garbage in our hearts, then our hearts have room for love and positive thinking. 

Again, this is harsh. Some people will be offended. If you get offended, then think again why you get offended. It is not good to be offended by random posts. This is not directed to anybody personally. This is directed to people in general.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan - I somehow had read a lot of excitement about a possible move - excitement on your part - into your initial posts.

But are you saying that this would be a bad move financially also? That's certainly worth considering.

And you are right that moving is no guarantee that your marriage will improve. I could see where a move home could be good for your husband, especially given what he's facing at work right now. But you are right - no guarantee that it would improve everything.

Hard for us to give good advice after just reading a few paragraphs sometimes. You've got a lot going on and a lot to think about.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Greenpearl:

"Confidence comes not from always being right but from not fearing to be wrong." ~Peter T. Mcintyre


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Brennan - I somehow had read a lot of excitement about a possible move - excitement on your part - into your initial posts.
> 
> But are you saying that this would be a bad move financially also? That's certainly worth considering.
> 
> ...



Yes, I would be excited to move. Having said that his idea of moving is literally selling our house and moving. No thought about employment or anything. This from a man who plans through everything (twice) before executing anything. We do have great equity in this house so financially we would be okay (for a while) but the thought of moving sans jobs and to a state that has high unemployment scares me. Other things that scare me is our oldest starting college next year out here and even though he got a partial ride, we still need to pay 2 years tuition AND room and board if we moved. That would put us in a tight spot. Add to that a 13 year old boy who is thriving out here and is very emotional about his friends, teachers and school. Move now or wait 5 1/2 years? Not sure. It does sort of piss me off though that his reasons are not being around his best friend for Friday night poker and being able to golf with his other friend on Saturdays. Really? So uprooting your family takes a back seat to your wants?
Again, he says this will help US out. Not sure how he figures that part out since helping US isn't much of a priority for him out here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Brennan said:


> Yes, I would be excited to move. Having said that his idea of moving is literally selling our house and moving. No thought about employment or anything. This from a man who plans through everything (twice) before executing anything. We do have great equity in this house so financially we would be okay (for a while) but the thought of moving sans jobs and to a state that has high unemployment scares me. Other things that scare me is our oldest starting college next year out here and even though he got a partial ride, we still need to pay 2 years tuition AND room and board if we moved. That would put us in a tight spot. Add to that a 13 year old boy who is thriving out here and is very emotional about his friends, teachers and school. Move now or wait 5 1/2 years? Not sure. It does sort of piss me off though that his reasons are not being around his best friend for Friday night poker and being able to golf with his other friend on Saturdays. Really? So uprooting your family takes a back seat to your wants?
> Again, he says this will help US out. Not sure how he figures that part out since helping US isn't much of a priority for him out here.


The tone of this message gives a bit of insight into how you actually view him.

Apparently, you don't think he can buy a clue.

Rather than listening to why he thinks it would help, apparently you'd rather argue.

And, you wonder why he doesn't draw close to you?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Conrad said:


> The tone of this message gives a bit of insight into how you actually view him.
> 
> Apparently, you don't think he can buy a clue.
> 
> ...


Could you elaborate please? I don't know what you mean by my tone as tone is hard to read. I certainly don't think he is clueless. Far from it. I think that he might be hasty in doing something that hasn't been thought through very well and his reasons for doing so boggle my mind. Golfing and poker brings US closer? Not sure about his thinking. Thoughts?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Brennan - I'm still trying to figure out how you switched from Excited to Angry so quickly.

When I checked posts Friday night, you were concerned about his job and were planning to use this as an opportunity to show your support.

Now you just sound mad that he's thrown an idea out there that might benefit him more than you.

It could help the "US" if he becomes a happier man.

Financially, it sounds like his job is in jeopardy already, so you may or may not be worse off in CA.

Your oldest son - he could transfer to CA to save on room and board; or he could be like a lot of other students and work part time and take out student loans.

Your youngest son - unless there's something unusual going on - will make new friends. How many of your friends are still in your life from when you were 13? For me, none.

Just kind of playing Devil's advocate here a bit. Like I said, WE don't know the full story.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

My big takeaway is that you simply don't trust him. Given his history according to you of stating what he was prepared to do, and then simply doing nothing, I can see where you'd feel that way.

But ... as others have pointed out. You have proclaimed an agenda of wanting to become closer to your husband. Quite frankly, it sounds like you guys mirror each other. I get the impression that despite wanting to be closer to him - you're waiting for him to invariably let you down, just like he always has.

My point? Help him to see, and be successful and you will get the success you're looking for as well. Or ... it will become apparent that you guys are so far off the same page that you're reading different books.

I guess my other thinking is that if his history is correct, he's not going to be in command of a move to CA. He's feeling you out. He's looking to see how enthusiastic or hesitant you are. Odds are, you won't go anywhere - unless or until he does lose his job. And frankly, doesn't that make the most sense?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Thank you NG and Deejo for your input. Yes, I would be excited to move but my excitement has been diminished and yes turned a tad angry because of comments he made. 
I will have to feel this out a bit.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Deejo said:


> My big takeaway is that you simply don't trust him. Given his history according to you of stating what he was prepared to do, and then simply doing nothing, I can see where you'd feel that way.
> 
> But ... as others have pointed out. You have proclaimed an agenda of wanting to become closer to your husband. Quite frankly, it sounds like you guys mirror each other. I get the impression that despite wanting to be closer to him - you're waiting for him to invariably let you down, just like he always has.
> 
> ...


I would echo this.

Couple do their own "dance" - and they do it together.

So often, the statement "I want to save this marriage" really means "I want my spouse to see it my way".

Only through listening to them - and using our own powers of introspection - no matter how dormant - are we able to find the "win win" that allows both to maintain dignity and move forward.

Nice Guy and Deej said it better than I did.


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