# Hello B1 here, 4 years later and...



## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Hello all, B1 here...
Well it's been nearly 4 years now since D-Day and our time on TAM began, and I thought I would pop in for just this one post to give an update on our status.

This will shock EI, as I said I would never come back, it's best for us and me. But I figured it may help someone, though I won't be returning as a regular poster. It’s just best this way. So here it goes...

We are great, I am great, and life between us is better than ever. Our marriage is as strong as ever and our bond stronger. I love my wife with all my heart, and it's wonderful to feel, and to express those feelings with her. She is such a good person. She simply did a bad thing, and that thing is over, lessons learned on BOTH sides.

Reconciliation is absolutely possible, for the right couple. It's NOT for everyone, it's not for those who wish harm on the other, or simply want revenge. There is NO place for secrets, hiding, lying or an RA. This is a time to be open, honest and upfront. Even with other things not associated with the A. Folks, it's simply time to talk, to seek help, to get counseling to re-discover who you both are and what you both want. Maybe it's not each other, maybe it is. In most cases, there is a LOT more going on than just an A. There were, as in our case, problems that went way back, deep seated problems on my part with love, expressing love, detachment, no sex drive, no drive period, and just being a unloving\uncaring husband. Does this make it ok to have an A, of course not, we BOTH know this, it's never ok, it's awful, and a horrible thing to do to your spouse and to yourself. EI knows this, and I work hard to let her know it's over, forgiven, and she needs to move on and NOT bash herself. I have moved on and for the most part so has she. It's truly amazing how "in love" we are, and how well we communicate now.


*So what's it like after 5 years of reconciliation?*

• Honestly, I can still get jolted sometimes, when I see an affair in a movie, it can have a negative effect on me. But it doesn't hurt my marriage or make me angry. I simple know, and I feel the pain of the betrayed. It can be emotional.

• IT can still come up in conversation, not much at all, but it's there at times, but it's much more matter of fact now.

• My trust is back to 100%, I know you should never trust 100%, deal with it, I do. In my opinion, trust is essential to a relationship.

• No more mind movies, those ended years ago.

• No more bad moments, thinking much about IT, etc. Again, 
that ended years ago.

• No anger towards the AP at all. He was lied to, as well.

• No hidden anger towards my wife, no bitterness, no sadness, nothing bad at all, I have 100% forgiven her and moved on. 

• Communication between us is far better than before.

• I have learned to express my love and feelings much more.
• I desire to please EI now, to help her heal her heart over what she did. She can still be hard on herself for it.

• I desire to make up for all those years I ignored her. It's easy to overlook what I did, on places like TAM, an A is all powerful, nothing else matters. Well, I am here to tell you, other things matter too if you want a happy healthy marriage. All problems need to be addressed!

• I can actually joke and tease EI about her getting hit on and me being hit on, not that I ever am, but I joke about it.

• We do joke and tease more, and laugh a LOT more.

• We know each other far better than before. We have learned how to better handle each other in stressful situations.

• It's hard to believe, but there is no bad from this at all, nothing hanging out there, over us etc. no bitterness, anger, sadness etc.

• Dates, I am forgetting all the important bad dates. I think there is one this month, I just don't remember when, and really I don't care.

• We both became better communicators, lovers, and friends.

• Sex is out of this world better. Now, this comes more from me beating depression and getting testosterone injections. I desire sex now, with EI of course, and it's wonderful, the desiring part, well, and the…well, you know.

• EI will still come to me ASAP when someone unknown friends her on FB, or calls her, etc., she still feels like she has to say something to make sure I know. I laugh and usually crack a joke about it.

Truth is, we are one flesh, two people who were just meant to be together. Even after we gave up on each other, there was still enough there to repair the damage, with hard work, commitment, determination, and love, we are whole again.

Love you EI, you are my life and I adore you!
-B1


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Amazing.


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## giddiot (Jun 28, 2015)

Great to hear and very happy you guys made it. Praise God.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

B1 said:


> Hello all, B1 here...
> Well it's been nearly 4 years now since D-Day and our time on TAM began, and I thought I would pop in for just this one post to give an update on our status.
> 
> This will shock EI, as I said I would never come back, it's best for us and me. But I figured it may help someone, though I won't be returning as a regular poster. It’s just best this way. So here it goes...
> ...


I love you, too, B1. You are my world, my everything, my anchor in the storm. Our life was never destined to be an easy one. But, with you by my side, I can handle anything that comes our way. Without your love, I would crumble. This much I know for sure!


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Ok.....did anyone else cry? 

Like, big, fat, crocodile tears falling down your face because you can just FEEL the love?

Just me?

Thought so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Good evening, B1!

Good to see you back.

Triggers. Yeah, these can be weird.

My wife cheated on me with a bus driver, and fro a while every time I saw a bus I had almost a panic attack.

Last time I triggered was when my company moved to a building with a four number electronic key lock. Which was the year of my wife's affair. Until I saw the new code I could not recall the year of her affair. 

The first time I keyed the number in I freaked and had to use breathing exercises to calm myself.

but it's OK, now.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Wow, interesting. Glad I divorced. I'd NEVER feel like you do. Happy for you, though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Pretty much agree with all of it with one exception.

I don't think I would ever be good, ok, or even neutral towards a man that knowingly had an affair with a married woman.

Unless I misread it, he knew she was married and had a family.

I'm sure he was lied to but he knew some unmistakable facts and apparently didn't care enough to leave her be.

I'm probably, in general, an angrier man though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> Pretty much agree with all of it with one exception.
> 
> I don't think I would ever be good, ok, or even neutral towards a man that knowingly had an affair with a married woman.
> 
> ...


crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.
Posted via Mobile Device
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

alphaomega said:


> crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.
> Posted via Mobile Device
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure if this is supposed to be humorous or not, but every time I see this, coupled with your avatar, it cracks me up.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

You're completely right B1, it's not a path designed for every couple. 

I'm very glad you and El were able to walk it together and heal.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

And I'll pop back in for this one post to thank both of you for being an inspiration. My wife and I are also in a much better place than 4 years ago, but we haven't come nearly as far as you two (I just reread my threads for the first time in years, and it all seems like so long ago).

Be well always.


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## MovingFrwrd (Dec 22, 2015)

Thank you for posting this, many blessings and continued happiness!


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

B1 and EI: your story is a great one. I still think that the two of you could put together a book (change the names and some of the details) out of this that would be a best seller.

Seriously.

Meanwhile, lots of luck in the future and tons of love from all of us to the two of you.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

alphaomega said:


> crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.
> Posted via Mobile Device
> _Posted via Mobile Device_










[/url]via Imgflip Meme Maker[/IMG]


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Pretty much agree with all of it with one exception.
> 
> I don't think I would ever be good, ok, or even neutral towards a man that knowingly had an affair with a married woman.
> 
> ...


I've got to admit, that I did a double-take, myself, when I read that part, @ConanHub. It's not something that B1 and I have ever discussed. I'm not sure how I thought B1 should feel about the AP, but I don't know that that is what I would have expected. As for me, I don't often think about him any more, but when the A, or he, does come up in discussion or he crosses my mind, it is always accompanied with a feeling of deep regret. I desperately wish I could turn back time, but I cannot, so I choose not to dwell on it. 

B1 is not an angry man, he never has been, not at any time in his life. It's simply not in his makeup. When we were in the early stages of dealing with my A, he was consumed mostly with his hurt over my betrayal, his grief over the loss of his sense of reality, and even his own regrets over his personal failings within our pre-A marriage, but not anger. There were honestly very few angry outbursts on his part. I'm sure that his general lack of anger, and his easy capacity to forgive is the primary reason that our reconciliation has been so successful. We don't feel like we're in R, we feel happily married, and blissfully in love.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

about 3/4 to this myself, 4 years after his two affairs and 6 years after mine. 
What helped the most?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> about 3/4 to this myself, 4 years after his two affairs and 6 years after mine.
> What helped the most?


A mutual sense of compassion for one another. Seeing him hurting so deeply, due to my betrayal, awakened a compassion within me, towards him, that had long before been buried under many layers of bitterness and resentment. And, for him, when his own flood of emotions that were filled with pain, doubt, and fear threatened to consume him, the lightbulb finally seemed to go off for him. He could no longer escape the reality that he had allowed me to suffer alone for years due to his neglect, rejection, and abandonment. He had been so devoid of emotion, for so long, that he had felt nothing, at all. But, when his own feelings were awakened, he finally began to understand, if not actually feel, mine, as well. 

What helped the most? Compassion, which led us to passion, which led us to back to love. A brand new, great big love.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

I am going to reprint B1’s post below because it is the most encouraging post that I have ever read on TAM in all my four years of reading!

Before the reprint below I just want to say that B1 and EI’s story is truly remarkable and the part below by B1 puts me in awe!



> By B1
> • My trust is back to 100%, I know you should never trust 100%, deal with it, I do. In my opinion, trust is essential to a relationship.
> 
> • No more mind movies, those ended years ago.
> ...





Complete reprint is below:


Hello B1 here, 4 years later and... 
________________________________________
Hello all, B1 here...
Well it's been nearly 4 years now since D-Day and our time on TAM began, and I thought I would pop in for just this one post to give an update on our status.

This will shock EI, as I said I would never come back, it's best for us and me. But I figured it may help someone, though I won't be returning as a regular poster. It’s just best this way. So here it goes...

We are great, I am great, and life between us is better than ever. Our marriage is as strong as ever and our bond stronger. I love my wife with all my heart, and it's wonderful to feel, and to express those feelings with her. She is such a good person. She simply did a bad thing, and that thing is over, lessons learned on BOTH sides.

Reconciliation is absolutely possible, for the right couple. It's NOT for everyone, it's not for those who wish harm on the other, or simply want revenge. There is NO place for secrets, hiding, lying or an RA. This is a time to be open, honest and upfront. Even with other things not associated with the A. Folks, it's simply time to talk, to seek help, to get counseling to re-discover who you both are and what you both want. Maybe it's not each other, maybe it is. In most cases, there is a LOT more going on than just an A. There were, as in our case, problems that went way back, deep seated problems on my part with love, expressing love, detachment, no sex drive, no drive period, and just being a unloving\uncaring husband. Does this make it ok to have an A, of course not, we BOTH know this, it's never ok, it's awful, and a horrible thing to do to your spouse and to yourself. EI knows this, and I work hard to let her know it's over, forgiven, and she needs to move on and NOT bash herself. I have moved on and for the most part so has she. It's truly amazing how "in love" we are, and how well we communicate now.


So what's it like after 5 years of reconciliation?

• Honestly, I can still get jolted sometimes, when I see an affair in a movie, it can have a negative effect on me. But it doesn't hurt my marriage or make me angry. I simple know, and I feel the pain of the betrayed. It can be emotional.

• IT can still come up in conversation, not much at all, but it's there at times, but it's much more matter of fact now.

• My trust is back to 100%, I know you should never trust 100%, deal with it, I do. In my opinion, trust is essential to a relationship.

• No more mind movies, those ended years ago.

• No more bad moments, thinking much about IT, etc. Again, 
that ended years ago.

• No anger towards the AP at all. He was lied to, as well.

• No hidden anger towards my wife, no bitterness, no sadness, nothing bad at all, I have 100% forgiven her and moved on. 

• Communication between us is far better than before.

• I have learned to express my love and feelings much more.
• I desire to please EI now, to help her heal her heart over what she did. She can still be hard on herself for it.

• I desire to make up for all those years I ignored her. It's easy to overlook what I did, on places like TAM, an A is all powerful, nothing else matters. Well, I am here to tell you, other things matter too if you want a happy healthy marriage. All problems need to be addressed!

• I can actually joke and tease EI about her getting hit on and me being hit on, not that I ever am, but I joke about it.

• We do joke and tease more, and laugh a LOT more.

• We know each other far better than before. We have learned how to better handle each other in stressful situations.

• It's hard to believe, but there is no bad from this at all, nothing hanging out there, over us etc. no bitterness, anger, sadness etc.

• Dates, I am forgetting all the important bad dates. I think there is one this month, I just don't remember when, and really I don't care.

• We both became better communicators, lovers, and friends.

• Sex is out of this world better. Now, this comes more from me beating depression and getting testosterone injections. I desire sex now, with EI of course, and it's wonderful, the desiring part, well, and the…well, you know.

• EI will still come to me ASAP when someone unknown friends her on FB, or calls her, etc., she still feels like she has to say something to make sure I know. I laugh and usually crack a joke about it.

Truth is, we are one flesh, two people who were just meant to be together. Even after we gave up on each other, there was still enough there to repair the damage, with hard work, commitment, determination, and love, we are whole again.

Love you EI, you are my life and I adore you!
-B1


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

TAM needs more success stories. Continued happiness and I hope life's other curveballs in your life have calmed down. Last time you posted EI was keeping you locked in the basement, I do hope she is letting you out more often now >


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Perhaps if I had been so negligent and uncaring toward my wife,I could eat a shiit sandwich like this and forgive. I was a very good husband and father,as far as I can tell. My Xw admits this. My kids all love me.
My second daughter told me tonight she was writing an essay for school about how I was always good and took care of my disabled son akidsnd how she admired me.
What did working,taking care of kids,being nice and affectionate to my wife get me? At least 5 -10 affairs and doubts re paternity. Exposure to STDs.
R is not possible for some betrayed folks who dealt with a remorseless, selfish a-hole.
So,I wonder why we do not see folks pointing to those of us that divorced these types of monsters,as "success stories" that inspire others.
Getting out and protecting our kids took just as much courage and determination and the ability to recover.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Perhaps if I had been so negligent and uncaring toward my wife,I could eat a shiit sandwich like this and forgive. I was a very good husband and father,as far as I can tell. My Xw admits this. My kids all love me.
> My second daughter told me tonight she was writing an essay for school about how I was always good and took care of my disabled son akidsnd how she admired me.
> What did working,taking care of kids,being nice and affectionate to my wife get me? At least 5 -10 affairs and doubts re paternity. Exposure to STDs.
> R is not possible for some betrayed folks who dealt with a remorseless, selfish a-hole.
> ...


Hey, @Maxo, you're right in that a true R is not possible for those who have a remorseless, selfish a-hole of a cheating spouse. But, you're wrong to say that we don't see folks pointing out the "success stories" of those who divorced these types. Those stories are shared on TAM everyday. The best stories are the ones that begin when the BS first posts on TAM just as they are beginning to suspect that their spouse is cheating, and then follows the advice of the seasoned TAMers who have traveled this road before them, and end after the infidelity is confirmed, and the BS does not lay down like a chump, but instead stands ups, dumps their remorseless cheating spouse, dusts themselves off, builds themselves back up, and creates a new life, with a new partner, and begins their happily ever after.

We applaud those success stories and we celebrate the rebuilding of their lives with them, every single step of the way. If you want a really great read, look up bff's story, or Bashful Bull's, and there are many, many others in addition to those.

On B1's Reconciliation thread, there were many regular contributors who did not reconcile their marriages, but instead reconciled themselves, and their lives, and created newer, and much happier futures going forward. You might want to try reading through Rookie's original threads. His story of divorce, attempted post-divorce reconciliation, break-up, and then moving forward with a new lady in his life is a very good read. 

You were a good husband, and you are a great father, and you got a very raw deal with a serial cheating, abusive ex-wife. The fortitude that it takes to endure all that you did, and to move forward in a healthy manner is truly nothing short of miraculous. Your children are blessed beyond measure to have you as an example and as their father. You are a successful story of survival, endurance, and perseverance. 

Now, with that said, I must also add that I think B1 made it quite clear that he does not believe that staying married to me is the equivalent of eating a sh*t sandwich. Was my A a big ol' sh*t sandwich for him to swallow in the beginning? Obviously, yes, it was. But, I can assure you that I nearly choked to death on the sh*t sandwich that my marriage had become pre-A. Today, B1 and I, (though life's obstacles may continue to rain all around us) are eating caviar and filet mignon everyday. That my friend is a success story, too! One that also deserves to be shared and celebrated. So, please don't sh*t on our happy parade.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Well,it is good you are thriving. I will look at those threads.


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

B1,

4 years 5 years a drop in the bucket for a young guy like you. The prize will be 34 or 35 with EI.

With that said, make sure you're tested annually for diseases that could be sourced from things like the medical treatments you had a few years back that helped the recovery of your marriage.

I can suspect that EI has already done the internet research about it but it's up to you to follow through with your doctor.

Stay strong and good luck,

Seasalt


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

EI said:


> I've got to admit, that I did a double-take, myself, when I read that part, @ConanHub. It's not something that B1 and I have ever discussed. I'm not sure how I thought B1 should feel about the AP, but I don't know that that is what I would have expected. As for me, I don't often think about him any more, but when the A, or he, does come up in discussion or he crosses my mind, it is always accompanied with a feeling of deep regret. I desperately wish I could turn back time, but I cannot, so I choose not to dwell on it.
> 
> B1 is not an angry man, he never has been, not at any time in his life. It's simply not in his makeup. When we were in the early stages of dealing with my A, he was consumed mostly with his hurt over my betrayal, his grief over the loss of his sense of reality, and even his own regrets over his personal failings within our pre-A marriage, but not anger. There were honestly very few angry outbursts on his part. I'm sure that his general lack of anger, and his easy capacity to forgive is the primary reason that our reconciliation has been so successful. We don't feel like we're in R, we feel happily married, and blissfully in love.



Anger ..... That's the key along with the capacity for forgiveness
The ability to put yourself in another's shoes (Empathy)

Weighing out the long term effects and their consequences an all affected.

To Both of you 

This took legendary strength to accomplish

and seems well worth the fight

Proud of both of you

Enjoy your lives you deserve it together

55


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I certainly have empathy for the pain my husband was in so that he chose to have an affair after I had mine.
But there is no way I can garner empathy for whatever state he was in when he chose to do it a second time. I just can't. Acceptance maybe, a "life is better with him" maybe but there is nor will be any understanding. I hope that doesn't mean we won't make it


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

OK, now that we have gotten the group hug over. (I don't do group hugs) I would like to say something.
There is, bottom line, one...and only one real reason why a successful (and by successful, I mean one where the A is truly and completely over and is out of your lives) reconciliation can take place. That reason is that BOTH the BS and the WS, with full knowledge of ALL of the issues facing them....BOTH WANT EACH OTHER. Sounds simple, desn't it, but it's not...not at all. AS B1 and EI can tell you.
I agree with B1 and EI on most things, but not all things. I definitely DO NOT agree that revenge or a desire to hurt the WS is the main , or even close to being the main reason, why most victims of adultery choose to divorce. The main reason why most divorce is because one , or the other people, WANT OUT.......... Period............. I know, that my WS (ex wife) wanted to reconcile more than anything in the world. She did every single thing right . She threw the OM under several buses, abased and shamed herself to me and pretty much everybody we knew. She spent years on self improvement and IC. But, all of that did not matter.....because I wanted out. Out of the marriage, out of the situation, and away from her. And that, folks is the main reason why, I feel that most people choose divorce.
Honestly, the people I feel most sorry for, are those that stay married, and settle for less, and spend years in a bad, loveless, marriage.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Thank you B1, your post was very helpful to me, am 3 years out in R and hope to be where you and EI are at now in another 2 years from now. 

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

B1, I know you don't frequent TAM anymore but if I might ask a question that will no doubt draw you back if you choose to respond. How did you find the strength to forgive EI? I'm very familiar with your story. I know EI was full of resentment and somewhat defiant when she first started posting on TAM. I also know you were not only hurt and in shock but filled with anger toward her, at least in the beginning. How did you find the will to set that anger aside? I only ask because I'm trying to heal an old wound of mine and as wonderful as my life currently is I'm finding it very difficult to not feel abject fury toward my ex W. Your ability (willingness?) to forgive is the thing I admire most about you my friend.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

When I join here over a year ago your thread was the first one I read. 

Let me tell you something and I will try my best not to make any errors. 

I was talking with my therapist and she told me I changed in some way. I let her know about this site and especially your thread and how it helped me. At first she was confused and told me that my case is kinda different. I cant expres myself the best way because in some way I learned about life. 
I learned to trust once more. I used to be angry man,not trusting my own brother or sisters,lost my fiance and mother,turned my back to friends and God. I really had nothing. People so easly talk about forgivnes but your thread showed me what it really means. I learned what to expect from Relationship or life in General and most important thing I learned about myself. 

Belive me I was using Translate option when I was reading your thread and respones from others. Your thread and this site are my best school I ever had. 

I want to say other things but my words and kinda shallow because of my bad English.

I am happy for you two. I wish you and your Family the best.

Thank you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)




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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

I hate to say it but man you're kinda ugly.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I also finally had to admit that I am a black man.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

bandit.45 said:


> I also finally had to admit that I am a black man.


Well the tie's nice


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## nursejackie (May 22, 2015)

Maxo said:


> Perhaps if I had been so negligent and uncaring toward my wife,I could eat a shiit sandwich like this and forgive. I was a very good husband and father,as far as I can tell. My Xw admits this. My kids all love me.
> My second daughter told me tonight she was writing an essay for school about how I was always good and took care of my disabled son akidsnd how she admired me.
> What did working,taking care of kids,being nice and affectionate to my wife get me? At least 5 -10 affairs and doubts re paternity. Exposure to STDs.
> R is not possible for some betrayed folks who dealt with a remorseless, selfish a-hole.
> ...


Maxo- I think we do see them on here and they are seen as success stories. When R is not warranted or an option it takes strength and courage to D and start a new life -particularly with kids! I often read posts that are encouraging and supporting the one who is ready to take the gum off their shoe. They let them know others have done it and thrived. They let them know there will be support here and advice along the way. Marriage is hard but divorce is harder. (but then…a lot of posters say it gets easier and they are happier.)


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

EI said:


> I've got to admit, that I did a double-take, myself, when I read that part, @ConanHub. It's not something that B1 and I have ever discussed. I'm not sure how I thought B1 should feel about the AP, but I don't know that that is what I would have expected. As for me, I don't often think about him any more, but when the A, or he, does come up in discussion or he crosses my mind, it is always accompanied with a feeling of deep regret. I desperately wish I could turn back time, but I cannot, so I choose not to dwell on it.
> 
> B1 is not an angry man, he never has been, not at any time in his life. It's simply not in his makeup. When we were in the early stages of dealing with my A, he was consumed mostly with his hurt over my betrayal, his grief over the loss of his sense of reality, and even his own regrets over his personal failings within our pre-A marriage, but not anger. There were honestly very few angry outbursts on his part. I'm sure that his general lack of anger, and his easy capacity to forgive is the primary reason that our reconciliation has been so successful. We don't feel like we're in R, we feel happily married, and blissfully in love.


B1....question. I don't know the back story, but dO you feel that you gained or lost respect for him as a result of him being able to control his emotions and refrain from angry behavior? Would you have respected him more had he lost his mind and walked out on you forcing you to feel his loss, beg his forgiveness, etc?

I'm going through a betrayal by my w now. From the moment of confrontation to now (3 weeks?) I've not raised my voice (though I did display an intensity she's likely not seen before on confront night), have not one time called her a name over it, or had a single outburst with her over it. I have been very firm, determined, and have also not one time waivered or allowed her to minimize this or rugs weep it. 

Respect builder or killer?

As I told her, if I need to walk out on her, hit her with d papers, and leave her a crying, snot bubble blowing and begging pleading mess on the floor as I walk out on her to get her to respect me, then I don't want her around, and she would be seriously misjudging me in the worst way if she took that as a sign of weakness. 

I do believe one needs to often walk out on someone to wake them up to what they're about to lose, but did not take that route with the w because I feared she'd wind back up in a hospital over panic attacks, like she did over 4 years ago, and which were recently returning. I made the decision to take this route and not risk a return hospital stay for her (it was so bad the docs couldn't figure it out and she as in for 3 days). 

But I don't see true remorse yet. We are addressing this tomorrow. 

Again, respect gained or lost? I know without the respect, there is high possibility of being taken for a doormat and a return to bad behavior in the future.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Marc878 said:


> Well the tie's nice


Good. That should compensate for my short penis.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

EI said:


> I've got to admit, that I did a double-take, myself, when I read that part, @ConanHub. It's not something that B1 and I have ever discussed. I'm not sure how I thought B1 should feel about the AP, but I don't know that that is what I would have expected. As for me, I don't often think about him any more, but when the A, or he, does come up in discussion or he crosses my mind, it is always accompanied with a feeling of deep regret. I desperately wish I could turn back time, but I cannot, so I choose not to dwell on it.
> 
> B1 is not an angry man, he never has been, not at any time in his life. It's simply not in his makeup. When we were in the early stages of dealing with my A, he was consumed mostly with his hurt over my betrayal, his grief over the loss of his sense of reality, and even his own regrets over his personal failings within our pre-A marriage, but not anger. There were honestly very few angry outbursts on his part. I'm sure that his general lack of anger, and his easy capacity to forgive is the primary reason that our reconciliation has been so successful. We don't feel like we're in R, we feel happily married, and blissfully in love.


There is a thing here that I think is very important. That is B1's paying attention to what he felt were his personal failings.

As has often been said here, it takes only one to have a divorce, but it takes two to have a reconciliation.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

honcho said:


> TAM needs more success stories. Continued happiness and I hope life's other curveballs in your life have calmed down. Last time you posted EI was keeping you locked in the basement, I do hope she is letting you out more often now >


Agreed! Also, TAM needs to encourage more success stories. EI and B1's story does not apply to everyone, but it does apply to a good number.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Perhaps if I had been so negligent and uncaring toward my wife,I could eat a shiit sandwich like this and forgive. I was a very good husband and father,as far as I can tell. My Xw admits this. My kids all love me.
> My second daughter told me tonight she was writing an essay for school about how I was always good and took care of my disabled son akidsnd how she admired me.
> What did working,taking care of kids,being nice and affectionate to my wife get me? At least 5 -10 affairs and doubts re paternity. Exposure to STDs.
> R is not possible for some betrayed folks who dealt with a remorseless, selfish a-hole.
> ...


Yes, but you still need work. You have to let go of the pain or it will slowly poison you to death.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Yes, but you still need work. You have to let go of the pain or it will slowly poison you to death.


I compartmentalize it,and enjoy life. I travel,have a nice girlfriend,great kids,love my job,nice pets,motorcyle,play high level competetive golf.
I am good.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Glad for the both of you that it all worked out well.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo said:


> I compartmentalize it,and enjoy life. I travel,have a nice girlfriend,great kids,love my job,nice pets,motorcyle,play high level competetive golf.
> I am good.


Not really. Your pain comes out all over your posts.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

donny64 said:


> B1....question. I don't know the back story, but dO you feel that you gained or lost respect for him as a result of him being able to control his emotions and refrain from angry behavior? Would you have respected him more had he lost his mind and walked out on you forcing you to feel his loss, beg his forgiveness, etc?
> 
> I'm going through a betrayal by my w now. From the moment of confrontation to now (3 weeks?) I've not raised my voice (though I did display an intensity she's likely not seen before on confront night), have not one time called her a name over it, or had a single outburst with her over it. I have been very firm, determined, and have also not one time waivered or allowed her to minimize this or rugs weep it.
> 
> ...


Respect played a huge part in my A, and a huge part in our reconciliation. I had lost all respect for B1, as a husband, prior to my A. In fact, I had lost respect for myself, and respect for the sanctity of our marriage. It was B1's handling of the situation in the aftermath of D-Day that literally caused me to turn my head around and take another look at what I had so willingly walked away from more than a year before, which at that point had already become a very dysfunctional marriage. 

While it's true that B1 has forgiven me, and that he is generally not an angry man, his forgiveness and healing weren't instantaneous. He didn't just forgive me, sweep the whole mess under the rug, and move on. We genuinely _worked_ to address all of our pre-A issues, my A, the lies, the deceit, the betrayal, and we both worked hard on ourselves, as individuals. I believe we worked through it the right way, if you could say there is a _right way _ to cope with infidelity. 

During the first several months, neither his or my emotions were always under control. He was angry, at times, obviously, and he was in intense pain, for several months, as well. We talked about almost nothing else, except us, for the entire first year. Neither of us knew whether we could, or if we even wanted to attempt to save a marriage that was so irretrievably broken. But, because of our obligations to our children and our financial situation, we knew that we had to remain in the household together for at least one more year, so we had to find a way to co-exist, together, and the best way to accomplish that was to try to help one another heal. 

B1 became very pro-active about _us_ for the first time in years. Though he was constantly in pain, and sometimes angry, he never totally lost control of his emotions to the point of going into blind rages, or calling me names, nor did he yell, or curse at me. His anger and pain were both very raw, real, and understandable. He was simply expressing his emotions with raw honesty. If he had ever made me feel physically threatened, or had become uncontrollably angry, and stayed that way for very long, no, it would not have made me respect him more. My respect for him, at that point, had been non-existent for well over a year, so that would have likely prevented me from ever respecting him, again. Our life had thrown us so many unbelievably difficult challenges, which have not all been shared on TAM, our therapist thinks that we both may have been suffering from a mild form of PTSD. I don't respond well to angry outbursts. I can't live that way. It would cause me to live in fear, and my life had become emotionally fearful enough. I wouldn't have been able to function if I had felt physically fearful, on top of that. 

How he accomplished this, I'll never know, because most BS's become defeated, at least for a while, after learning of their WS's infidelity, but B1 really worked on improving himself, and in doing so, he found the perfect mix of both strength and vulnerability at a time when we needed it the most. He was strong enough, and confidant enough, to let me know that he would survive this, no matter the outcome. And, just like I had been, a few years before, he was ready to begin healing from life's injustices, and move forward into a happier, healthier future. He basically let me know that he wanted to move forward with me, but if I wasn't ready to at least commit to jumping onboard, and trying to work on us, right then, with no looking back towards the AP, that he would move on without me. I heard that loud and clear. He was finally ready and willing to do what I had desperately tried to get him to do for years before my A began.... work on us. 

That got my attention, and with his new found confidence, and a lot of hard work on both of our parts, my respect for him went through the roof, and I fell deeply, madly, and passionately back in love with him, all over again. But, this time, it's bigger, better, and healthier than ever before.

Our situation is unique to the two of us, so what worked for us won't necessarily apply to everyone. But, what I do think would be beneficial to anyone attempting to recover from infidelity, whether trying to reconcile or not, is strength, without anger; confidence, without arrogance, and a desire to heal over a desire for vengeance.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Not really. Your pain comes out all over your posts.


Yes,of course there is pain. This is described by many therapist as difficult to get over as rape or death of a child.
I was sexually assaulted three times as an eleven year old. So,I am,somewhat predisposed to feeling trauma,like betrayall very deeply.
I did not mean to imply this is no longer painful. I suspect it always will be,just like when I was assaulted remains with me or just like my son being severely disabled pains me.
What I do find interesting ,among some here is the implication that being in pain is something to be ashamed of.
I see EI has liked your post. Do you think her husband no longer feels any pain at all about what was done to him?
I cope best I can. I do have a stunning girlfriend. I compete at a very high level in golf. I win a lot of my trials. My kids and I are close as heck. I support my addicted son and care for my disabled son,frequently.
I just came back from Florida where I played some great courses. I head to Phoenix to play Friday. I go to zGeorgia for Senior US Open qualifier in June.
Life is good but ,like most touched by this,there will always be pain. My girlfriend went through the same thing. She still cries,sometimes.
Farsidejunky recently took a poke at me for being in pain,as if it is something to be ashamed of. Looks like you,too,sidney,consider being in pain from one of life's worst traumas is a shameful thing. It is not. It is very normal.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Not really. Your pain comes out all over your posts.


So,does my being in pain invalidate my opinions automatically? It sounds,sidney,as if you have never been through this nor has EI.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Yes,of course there is pain. This is described by many therapist as difficult to get over as rape or death of a child.
> I was sexually assaulted three times as an eleven year old. So,I am,somewhat predisposed to feeling trauma,like betrayall very deeply.
> I did not mean to imply this is no longer painful. I suspect it always will be,just like when I was assaulted remains with me or just like my son being severely disabled pains me.
> What I do find interesting ,among some here is the implication that being in pain is something to be ashamed of.
> ...


No, @Maxo, being in pain is nothing to be ashamed of. You're a human being. Life's traumas can hurt, and some traumas hurt much more than others. You've had your share, and then some. Sidney and farside are both kind and caring posters. I think the reason they have pointed out the pain in your posts, is because it's practically screaming to be released. You've been divorced now for over 10 years, right? What brought you to TAM, now? There must be something that you're looking for. The scars of some wounds remain and are a visible sign of the pain that was once there. But, if treated correctly, the pain can eventually go away. 

I know that it's not as welcome on a forum like TAM, for a WS, or a FWS to speak of their own pain. A lot of BS's just don't care to hear about it, or they think that the WS's pain is only a result of their own making. But, that isn't always the case. Not every WS is an evil, selfish, uncaring monster, who is incapable of compassion or empathy. And, sometimes we hurt for reasons that we did not bring upon ourselves. Like addiction, pain doesn't discriminate. I've also had my share, and I didn't bring the vast majority of it upon myself. But, I did learn that I do have a lot of power within myself to heal. But, the old saying _"Time Heals"_ isn't entirely true. It should read _"With hard work, deep introspection, and learning how to let go of what we cannot change, time can heal many wounds." _

I think that Sidney, farside, and I, along with many, many others here, on TAM, would truly like to see you heal. 

You asked whether or not my husband was still in pain. I think we could both still be in pain if we chose to dwell on our past. But, we honestly dealt with it, through and through. That doesn't mean that it is a pleasant memory for us, but it is a part of our lives that no longer has its oppressive grip on our souls. Today, my husband laughs, jokes, teases, and plays like he never did in years past. Everyone notices that about him. Our children, our extended family, our friends, his co-workers all see a very different man in B1, a man who is "lighter" than ever before. Oppression no longer has its grip on him.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> So,does my being in pain invalidate my opinions automatically? It sounds,sidney,as if you have never been through this nor has EI.


You really have no idea of what EI has been through. None at all.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I have a good life. My children and girlfriend love me. I have many great friends. My personal experien e with cheaters tells me they are not good people. Just like foks who beat their kids or spouse are not.
If you have not been the victim of this,you have no idea what it is like. One loses access to kids. One loses o e's house. The financial impact is huge. Years of my life were stolen. At least if I had known about it,like one does in an abusive relationship,I could have saved years of my life.
See,EI,you knew you were in an abusive relationship. You had options due to knowing this.
We betrayeds had no idea for a long time,so we cannot ever recover the time.
That is a huge difference. You knew what you sere in and elected your remedy with full knowledge.
How would you like to find out,after years had gone by and your youth was gone that your life was a lie? At least you knew B1was abusing you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Maxo said:


> Yes,of course there is pain. This is described by many therapist as difficult to get over as rape or death of a child.
> I was sexually assaulted three times as an eleven year old. So,I am,somewhat predisposed to feeling trauma,like betrayall very deeply.
> I did not mean to imply this is no longer painful. I suspect it always will be,just like when I was assaulted remains with me or just like my son being severely disabled pains me.
> What I do find interesting ,among some here is the implication that being in pain is something to be ashamed of.
> ...


Let's be clear in what I actually did, @Maxo.

Take a poke? That is a mostly fair. Shaming? Far from it. When we live in our pain, we are taking a seat in the victim chair. Look up the Karpman Drama Triangle for a reference.

The problem with the victim chair is the unintended consequences, as with many things in life. When one sits in the victim chair, they have a tendency to not only let their pain keep them anchored there, but they also (inadvertently) encourage others to see things the same way, even when the situation actually does not fit.

One more note. Hurt people hurt people.

My hope is that I can maybe get you to see that you have the power to remove yourself from the victim chair. And why? Because it is stunting healing. One can never truly heal when seated there.

But shaming? No sir. I think I have earned a reputation on this board as being fair, honest and helpful...or at least mostly. The fact that you see shaming in my posts to you is as clear an indicator of your seat in the victim chair as any other.

And FTR, I have also been sexually assaulted, but as an adult, not a child. I am sorry for your experiences. Nobody should have to have gone through that, especially at that age. 

I respectfully ask that you consider what I am trying to communicate to you.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> Let's be clear in what I actually did, @Maxo.
> 
> Take a poke? That is a mostly fair. Shaming? Far from it. When we live in our pain, we are taking a seat in the victim chair. Look up the Karpman Drama Triangle for a reference.
> 
> ...


Clearly,there was sarcasm in your post,farside. But,you do not really know me or I you.
I am not lying about this. My life is rich and full,as I have described. I am fortunate to be well liked( hard to believe,eh?), and very blessed with many good things.
There is a line of thinking that I have nev er understood. ********** mentions it in a post she did respondying to another poster re moving on,forgiving etc.
It seems that for some strange reason,the word " victim" has taken on a bad connotation in recent years. 
But,it is an entirely accurate description of the recipient of this abuse and is not shameful in the least.
Would you deny a person sexually assaulted is a victim? Therapist say infidelity is at least as traumatizing.
I have raised legitimzte concerns on Lonely Husband's thread re the accuracies of his perceptions. You take issue with my having a different take,which is fine. But, my take is not based on my pain. Things do not add up for me in his story.
Again,I wish you could see all the joy I take in life despite the hole my XW carved in me. 
My therapist told me he could not believe how strong I was and how I conti ued to function. And,I never stuffed this pain. I got help from my therapst and have done really well.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> You really have no idea of what EI has been through. None at all.


Are you saying your husband cheated on you?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> No, @Maxo, being in pain is nothing to be ashamed of. You're a human being. Life's traumas can hurt, and some traumas hurt much more than others. You've had your share, and then some. Sidney and farside are both kind and caring posters. I think the reason they have pointed out the pain in your posts, is because it's practically screaming to be released. You've been divorced now for over 10 years, right? What brought you to TAM, now? There must be something that you're looking for. The scars of some wounds remain and are a visible sign of the pain that was once there. But, if treated correctly, the pain can eventually go away.
> 
> I know that it's not as welcome on a forum like TAM, for a WS, or a FWS to speak of their own pain. A lot of BS's just don't care to hear about it, or they think that the WS's pain is only a result of their own making. But, that isn't always the case. Not every WS is an evil, selfish, uncaring monster, who is incapable of compassion or empathy. And, sometimes we hurt for reasons that we did not bring upon ourselves. Like addiction, pain doesn't discriminate. I've also had my share, and I didn't bring the vast majority of it upon myself. But, I did learn that I do have a lot of power within myself to heal. But, the old saying _"Time Heals"_ isn't entirely true. It should read _"With hard work, deep introspection, and learning how to let go of what we cannot change, time can heal many wounds." _
> 
> ...


Your husband did not have his kids ripped from him and did not lose his house.Nor did he wind up without his spouse,who he loved,a lot.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Are you saying your husband cheated on you?


I didn't say that, nor was I referring to it. But, FWIW, and I know it probably isn't much, B1 actually did cheat on me. But, it was a very long time ago, about 10 months before we got married. He never told me about it. But, a frenemy (former friend) of mine, who was in no way trying to do me any favors, made sure that I found out about it in a very public and humiliating way, exactly two weeks before our wedding. I've gotta say, the timing of that _really sucked _ since the wedding invitations were long sent out, the wedding was paid for, and besides, I was madly in love with him. After I was humiliated in front of all of our friends, he confessed the rest of the story, on our way back to his dad's house that night, of the ONS, with the ex-gf, who decided to try, one last time, to sink her claws into him.... long story, not one I really wish to rehash now.

Is that enough? Does that qualify me as someone who knows the pain of betrayal? Or, should I go further and tell about how we went back to his dad's house, and without knowing back then what it was called, we did some serious hysterical bonding, and after 3 years of dating, without a single pregnancy scare, I got pregnant that night. Of course, we didn't find out _the good news_ until 3 days after our wedding. I was getting as sick as a dog, so we decided that, as a precaution, I should take a pregnancy test. I don't even remember if they had EPT's back then, it was 1984. So, we went to the clinic downtown for me to take the test. I was literally in shock when the nurse told me that my test came back positive. I walked over to B1 in the waiting room and told him. His first words were, "Did you schedule an abortion?" There was never really any discussion about it. This was on a Tuesday, we had gotten married on Saturday. On Thursday, B1 went back to work, on Friday, one of my girlfriends went back to that same clinic with me and I had an abortion. I had nightmares about that whole experience at least once a month for the first 12 years of our marriage. 

After 12 years, our life was starting to get really hectic and out of control. We'd already had our 3 biological sons, we were now raising my niece and nephew, whom we later adopted, I was the full-time caregiver for both my mom, and my dad, who by then lived with us, and B1 was traveling about 40% of the time with his job. I think I just got too busy or too tired to be traumatized by that anymore, and the nightmares finally stopped. I didn't know yet that my awake time nightmares were about to begin. 

Again, though, that isn't what I was referring to when I said that you didn't know what I'd been through. The truth is, there is all kinds of pain, and there are many ways to betray your partner, infidelity being only one of them. Many people, at least those on TAM, seem to think that infidelity stands alone, separate from the issues in the relationship. It's everyone's prerogative to express how they feel about that. But, it's up to each individual to decide that for themselves.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Your husband did not have his kids ripped from him and did not lose his house.Nor did he wind up without his spouse,who he loved,a lot.


My husband, *and I,* did actually lose our house last year. Different reasons, different story, and this isn't a contest. There is enough pain to go around. By the time people land in TAMland, so desperate for relief that they find themselves pouring their hearts out to total strangers, they've probably had their share. 

I'm sorry that your ex-wife did such a number on you. Not every cheater is your cheater. They aren't all motivated for the same reasons.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> One more note. Hurt people hurt people.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Good. That should compensate for my short penis.


Oh dear.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Not really. Your pain comes out all over your posts.


I get what you are saying, but I wonder if it is possible to choose not to feel pain. We all have our own journeys.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

And in all of that I didn't get to say, good to hear from you B1. Glad all is well.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> I didn't say that, nor was I referring to it. But, FWIW, and I know it probably isn't much, B1 actually did cheat on me. But, it was a very long time ago, about 10 months before we got married. He never told me about it. But, a frenemy (former friend) of mine, who was in no way trying to do me any favors, made sure that I found out about it in a very public and humiliating way, exactly two weeks before our wedding. I've gotta say, the timing of that _really sucked _ since the wedding invitations were long sent out, the wedding was paid for, and besides, I was madly in love with him. After I was humiliated in front of all of our friends, he confessed the rest of the story, on our way back to his dad's house that night, of the ONS, with the ex-gf, who decided to try, one last time, to sink her claws into him.... long story, not one I really wish to rehash now.
> 
> Is that enough? Does that qualify me as someone who knows the pain of betrayal? Or, should I go further and tell about how we went back to his dad's house, and without knowing back then what it was called, we did some serious hysterical bonding, and after 3 years of dating, without a single pregnancy scare, I got pregnant that night. Of course, we didn't find out _the good news_ until 3 days after our wedding. I was getting as sick as a dog, so we decided that, as a precaution, I should take a pregnancy test. I don't even remember if they had EPT's back then, it was 1984. So, we went to the clinic downtown for me to take the test. I was literally in shock when the nurse told me that my test came back positive. I walked over to B1 in the waiting room and told him. His first words were, "Did you schedule an abortion?" There was never really any discussion about it. This was on a Tuesday, we had gotten married on Saturday. On Thursday, B1 went back to work, on Friday, one of my girlfriends went back to that same clinic with me and I had an abortion. I had nightmares about that whole experience at least once a month for the first 12 years of our marriage.
> 
> ...


Yes,that qualifies and sorry about it. But,see,even you state it caused nightmares for 12 years. So,it takes a ling time. I am at ten years post discovery. And,perhaps the fact that he cheated,as well,made it easier to forgive you.
But,I did not cheat on or abuse my XW,like he did to you. Maybe that is a meaningful distinction.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Yes,that qualifies and sorry about it. But,see,even you state it caused nightmares for 12 years. So,it takes a ling time. I am at ten years post discovery. And,perhaps the fact that he cheated,as well,made it easier to forgive you.
> But,I did not cheat on or abuse my XW,like he did to you. Maybe that is a meaningful distinction.


I, personally, think it is a very meaningful distinction. But, anytime a new WS comes to TAM and posts their story, the moment they start to share any background information into the pre-A marriage, they are immediately shut down, and told that saying anything other than "I am a selfish, remorseless, uncaring *****, who cares about no one but myself, please help me figure out what's wrong with me so that I can become a better person and spend the rest of my life becoming a living sacrifice trying to make this up to my BS, if they will have me." 

Now, from what you have shared about your story, it would seem that if your ex-wife had come here and posted 10 years ago, that statement might not have been inaccurate. But, I can tell you, that if B1 would have required that sort of response from me, or he had jumped on the bandwagon of those who were posting those types of comments to me, we would not be together today. 

I think it is absolutely absurd when TAMers, or anyone, suggests that coping with infidelity does not include acknowledging and dealing with the conditions of the pre-A marriage. I get that many BS's were in horrible marriages and that they did not cheat. I also get that many BS's were good, faithful, and loving spouses and they got cheated on anyway. Those situations call for responses based on their individual circumstances and based upon what both the BS and the WS wish to do going forward. 

Most WS's, especially those with lengthy, complicated marriages, rarely stick around TAM long enough to completely share their story, and often end up leaving TAM in far worse condition than when they arrived. I know this because they often keep in touch with me afterwards. There was so much more to their stories, but they simply could not handle the emotional battering they were receiving here, along with emotional fallout that was going on at home. 

I think that B1's active participation on TAM with me, for the first year or so after D-Day, was instrumental in our recovery. He had never stepped up _for me_ to the extent that he did here. His love, support, and devotion continues today, just away from TAM. Our home life still has its fair share of drama, but we are truly in this together now, and that had made all of the difference in the world for both of us.

I think that you believe that people here are blaming you for being a victim, as if being victimized makes you a bad guy. You were victimized, repeatedly, and it hurt, and it obviously still does. What a few here are trying to tell you is that you do have a choice, you do not have to remain a victim forever. 

Rug sweeping is not something that just happens when people enter into false reconciliations. Rug sweeping occurs whenever people remain stuck in their pain. Even BS's who divorce can remain stuck in their pain for years to come. Read some of bfree's posts on that subject. 

When B1 and I were coping with infidelity, with took the rug out and dug up everything, going back to things that happened even before our marriage began. We finally dealt with everything, all of it. We both were able to heal from the inside out and the results have been miraculous. Of course, in order for our R to take place, that required that both of us be completely committed to that very lengthy and emotional process. 

But, having gone through that, I now understand how true forgiveness and healing works. B1 and I both know that though we are strong enough to move forward, individually, if we had to, we still choose to be together. 

No one is blaming you for being a victim, you didn't choose that. They are just trying to tell you that you don't have to remain one. There is another quote that goes along with "Hurt people, hurt people," it is "Transformed people, transform people." Many people on TAM have been deeply hurt, but sometimes they do recover. When that happens, they often desire to help others. That is the point farside is trying to make to you.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

@B1 

You were given an exceptionally rare gift.

A TRULY remorseful spouse.

Continued good fortune to both of you.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> @B1
> 
> You were given an exceptionally rare gift.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> @B1
> 
> You were given an exceptionally rare gift.
> 
> ...


Actually, BetrayedDad, the real "gift" that EI and B1 have been given, is that they are from Kentucky. AS everybody knows (or should know) Kentucky people are considerably smarter than pretty much anybody else. Genetically speaking, Kentucks are way higher on the evolutionary scale.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> I, personally, think it is a very meaningful distinction. But, anytime a new WS comes to TAM and posts their story, the moment they start to share any background information into the pre-A marriage, they are immediately shut down, and told that saying anything other than "I am a selfish, remorseless, uncaring *****, who cares about no one but myself, please help me figure out what's wrong with me so that I can become a better person and spend the rest of my life becoming a living sacrifice trying to make this up to my BS, if they will have me."
> 
> Now, from what you have shared about your story, it would seem that if your ex-wife had come here and posted 10 years ago, that statement might not have been inaccurate. But, I can tell you, that if B1 would have required that sort of response from me, or he had jumped on the bandwagon of those who were posting those types of comments to me, we would not be together today.
> 
> ...


I know of few BSs who were unwilling to discuss marital issues pre- affair. I, for one, beseeched my wife to go to counseling for us and was had made arrangements.
The distinction I see in your case, EI, is that your husband has admitted his abuse.
Many BSs are demonized and the marriages trashed by the WSs seeking to justify their cheating, when , in fact , the allegations are untrue.
So, if my XW wanted to talk to me about dissatisfaction, I was more than willing and was, in fact, the moving force trying to start those discussions and get any help we could.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Let me say that I understand where Maxo is coming from.

I am truly glad that B1 and EI have found peace and love and have reconciled etc.

However, there are many of us that could not do what B1 did - we could not go back after the level of betrayal in this case no matter what the stage of our marriage was before the affair.

EI had moved on to the AP and, by her own admission, was in love with him. She still doesn't really think badly of him. And it took a monumental effort from B1 to bring her back. He had to swallow a lot of pride and take responsibility for the poor state of the marriage. As I said, many of us would not have.

And if there was any mention of me cheating before we were married (a lifetime ago, before marriage and kids etc and a one off) as justification for my wife having an affair at this stage in the marriage and on a sustained basis, the marriage would be over so fast it would make one's head spin.

However, true love seems to have won out here although, it is not the norm.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, BetrayedDad, the real "gift" that EI and B1 have been given, is that they are from Kentucky. AS everybody knows (or should know) Kentucky people are considerably smarter than pretty much anybody else. Genetically speaking, Kentucks are way higher on the evolutionary scale.


 I take it you are from somewhere other than the bluegrass state, then.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> Let me say that I understand where Maxo is coming from.
> 
> I am truly glad that B1 and EI have found peace and love and have reconciled etc.
> 
> ...


The reason why EI and B1 have been successful, is that BOTH of them were committed to it. Not one more than the other.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

BTW, B1, how long have you and EI been on TAM? I know you came here before I did.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> Actually, BetrayedDad, the real "gift" that EI and B1 have been given, is that they are from Kentucky. AS everybody knows (or should know) Kentucky people are considerably smarter than pretty much anybody else. Genetically speaking, Kentucks are way higher on the evolutionary scale.


Rookie, don't you dare come over here to this thread and start trouble! :nono:



Rookie4 said:


> BTW, B1, how long have you and EI been on TAM? I know you came here before I did.


B1 and I start posting on TAM in June, 2012.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> Let me say that I understand where Maxo is coming from.
> 
> I am truly glad that B1 and EI have found peace and love and have reconciled etc.
> 
> ...


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

El and B1 I think are an example of true love indeed, and that some people are just meant to be, in the midst of all the ugliness in this world yes their story shows it's still possible and the hope is alive N well. 

Sent from my SM-T700 using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EI said:


> I think it is absolutely absurd when TAMers, or anyone, suggests that coping with infidelity does not include acknowledging and dealing with the conditions of the pre-A marriage. I get that many BS's were in horrible marriages and that they did not cheat. I also get that many BS's were good, faithful, and loving spouses and they got cheated on anyway. Those situations call for responses based on their individual circumstances and based upon what both the BS and the WS wish to do going forward.


I am always blown away by the posters who INSIST VEHEMANTLY that everything was "fine" before. (grumble grumble regular bumps and stuff....) But fine. And besides THEY did not cheat. I have always wondered what the real PoV of their WS's was.

It all comes down to blame for some people. And they just can't get past that. While they are not to blame for the cheating, getting blame focused is going to be a direct problem for R.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Life is good but ,like most touched by this,there will always be pain. My girlfriend went through the same thing. She still cries,sometimes.
> Farsidejunky recently took a poke at me for being in pain,as if it is something to be ashamed of. Looks like you,too,sidney,consider being in pain from one of life's worst traumas is a shameful thing. It is not. It is very normal.


I understand your point, but you can't let it overwhelm you or you will never heal.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo said:


> So,does my being in pain invalidate my opinions automatically? It sounds,sidney,as if you have never been through this nor has EI.


I have been through plenty of pain in my time. To repeat my point you cannot let your pain run your life. YOU have to overcome it. Will it ever go completely away? No, of course not. But you have a heavy dose of it. I'd suggest appropriate counselling.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am always blown away by the posters who INSIST VEHEMANTLY that everything was "fine" before. (grumble grumble regular bumps and stuff....) But fine. And besides THEY did not cheat. I have always wondered what the real PoV of their WS's was.
> 
> It all comes down to blame for some people. And they just can't get past that. While they are not to blame for the cheating, getting blame focused is going to be a direct problem for R.


Problem is with all the lying WSs do to justify it is impossible to know if they are telling the truth. And, it is unrealistic to expect a marriage to be without some problems.
Not sure about your vows, but mine contained no caveat that all bets re fidelity were off if one of us felt dissatisfaction or perceived a flaw in our spouse ( and, realistically, with a person that lies, cheats, has no compunctions about hurting their spouse and children, not to mention the children of the other BS and that Bs, as well, what is the likliehood that the BS was the main source of pre-affair problems).
I do think that many BSs are blindsided, acknowledging that there were issues in the marriage, like just about everyone else's, but never hearing from the cheater that things were so bad that cheating was contemplated.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Are you saying your husband cheated on you?


Maxo, please drop it. There are things as bad as being cheated on or even worse. We all have our own private hells, some deeper than others.

I'm sorry I upset you. I was reacting to the emotion that came with what you write. It bothers me to see someone in as much pain as you are in.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Problem is with all the lying WSs do to justify it is impossible to know if they are telling the truth. And, it is unrealistic to expect a marriage to be without some problems.


So here is the thing that I have never really understood. It's the sequence of the thing. You fall in love. You get married. Then what? Not only does s/he turn into a completely different person; a liar a cheat with no regard for spouse' feelings, the partner can't even tell! What does that say about the state of closeness before they were able to get away with all this deceit? Not very good. You know what the lion's share of the BS did notice, and not until retrospect? Their partner's new attire. 

My husband and I have been having less than perfect times lately. He started ... not exactly lying. I was like ohhhh maaaan are you so full of sh!t your behind smells. Fess it. 

Yeah marriages have problems. What I wonder about the WS is that was THEIR version of the problems? That the spouse BS called "little problems" in our "fine" marriage. That is what I think EI might be referring to being totally shut down on this message board. There was actually someone complaining recently about a message board whose moderators immediately shut down any vitriol toward the WS for this very reason. The poster was complaining that he did not get to blast the WS. 

For myself, if my husband every cheated, I would want all the information there was, particularly if I were interested in reconciliation.




> Not sure about your vows, but mine contained no caveat that all bets re fidelity were off if


Tortured sentence alert!  If you want to live your marriage by vows, you can certainly end them by vows for all of me. Marriages lived by vows 



> one of us felt dissatisfaction or perceived a flaw in our spouse ( and, realistically, with a person that lies, cheats, has no compunctions about hurting their spouse and children, not to mention the children of the other BS and that Bs, as well, what is the likliehood that the BS was the main source of pre-affair problems).


I don't think anyone is trying to put BS's and WS' on a cause scale. I know for myself the last thing I care about is blame. Seeking blame is the #1 set of blinder for all kinds of issues on this board.



> I do think that many BSs are blindsided, acknowledging that there were issues in the marriage, like just about everyone else's, but never hearing from the cheater that things were so bad that cheating was contemplated.


Ah "so bad". There it is. Why would anyone have to tell their supposed loving partner it is "that bad". Is that what it takes to get someone to take you seriously? Apparently. At that point, what difference does it make if the marriage ends with or without an affair. If a partner is waiting for "that bad" to do something to improve the marriage, the marriage is dying anyway.

Queue long line of supposedly walk away spouses.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

sidney2718 said:


> I have been through plenty of pain in my time. To repeat my point you cannot let your pain run your life. YOU have to overcome it. Will it ever go completely away? No, of course not. But you have a heavy dose of it. I'd suggest appropriate counselling.


It can mute to the point of only very infrequent presence, if you let it. I am not going in for rating what event leads to the most pain. I am pretty sure mine would compete if I wanted to enter that race. Peace is a beautiful thing.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Let me say that I understand where Maxo is coming from.

I am truly glad that B1 and EI have found peace and love and have reconciled etc.

However, there are many of us that could not do what B1 did - we could not go back after the level of betrayal in this case no matter what the stage of our marriage was before the affair.

EI had moved on to the AP and, by her own admission, was in love with him. She still doesn't really think badly of him. I think this is risky to even address on TAM, and I'm not sure it's really necessary. But, the truth is, I don't generally go around thinking of the OM, at all, anymore. B1 and our family fill my time and thoughts. But, when posting about this subject on TAM, it's impossible not to be cognizant of who/what I am posting about. To put this bluntly, (and, I know this is going to piss people off, and cause collective groaning and eye-rolling) what kind of a person would I have been (I hear y'all) if I had had an LT EA/PA with someone whom I thought poorly of at the time? Obviously, what he did was wrong, but what I did was far more wrong. I was married and he was not, and I had led him to believe that B1 was more informed than he actually was. The fact that I was married was something that he struggled greatly with. We talked on the phone a couple of times after D-Day, before B1 and I had made the decision to attempt to reconcile, and before I sent him the NC letter. He was hurt, angry, and confused, but after the letter was sent, he comepletley backed off. I don't hate him, I don't love him, I don't think about him, anymore, unless I'm posting here. 

EI please don't misunderstand the purpose of my post. This was really aimed at others who were suggesting that this sort of thing could be done. To be honest I would not expect you to be with someone who you didn't think was a good person - I would have thought less of you if you had gone with someone who was completely devoid of any morals. I also would have thought less of you if you did not love him and gave yourself to him. I understand what you say, and there is no reason to bring it up other than to clarify for others that yours and B1's was and is a different situation. I would not expect you to think of him because you have the very best back in your arms.

And it took a monumental effort from B1 to bring her back. He had to swallow a lot of pride and take responsibility for the poor state of the marriage. As I said, many of us would not have.


It took a monumental effort on both of our parts. And, to be honest, in our situation, that is exactly what was required. Anything less, would not have been sufficient. As far as B1 swallowing his pride and taking responsibility for the poor state of the marriage goes, he simply took responsibility for that which he was responsible. In turn, I took responsibility for the piss poor, selfish, and irresponsible decision that I made to betray my family, and deceive my husband, and have an A before my marriage had officially come to an end. So, we each took responsibility for the things that we were responsible for. I think that is how accountability is supposed to work. And though choosing to be accountable doesn't guarantee success in reconciliation, I think choosing not to be, would guarantee failure. 

I understand and acknowledge the effort from both of you - again this was aimed at anyone who thinks this is something all BS's could do. I referred to B1 in particular because he was the BS in this case and other BS's really need to know what it takes from them not just their WS to make this happen. My respect to both of you but in particular to B1 for being man enough to do what needed to be done. Again, you and B1 are a rare case and as I say at the end, in this case true love won out.

And if there was any mention of me cheating before we were married (a lifetime ago, before marriage and kids etc and a one off) as justification for my wife having an affair at this stage in the marriage and on a sustained basis, the marriage would be over so fast it would make one's head spin.

I have never once suggested that it was justication, or that the two were even related. It never even crossed my mind, which is why after nearly 4 years of posting on TAM, it's never been mentioned until now. I was responding specifically to a direct question from Maxo. I had no plans of ever sharing that story on TAM. It did hurt like Hell at the time, but it played no part, whatsoever, in my betrayal of B1, over 27 years later.

And finally once again, aimed at the person who said "oh B1 cheated on you" therefore I understand it. Not the case and not suggesting that you used it as justification at all. I will repeat for all to understand my viewpoint, EI and B1 are an incredibly special couple and if all cases of infidelity could end up like them, the world would be a better place. Two strong and compassionate individuals who did not let the rest of the world dictate how they would live their life together. Apologies for any confusion or upset I may have caused.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Maxo, please drop it. There are things as bad as being cheated on or even worse. We all have our own private hells, some deeper than others.
> 
> I'm sorry I upset you. I was reacting to the emotion that came with what you write. It bothers me to see someone in as much pain as you are in.


No problem,sidney. I am not upset with you.
And,I feel fairly certain that EI appreciates the rsepectful and sincere tone of my inquiries,as evidenced by our respectful dialogue that is free of ad hominem.
Pain from betrayal is unavoidable,for me and many of us here. I am sure you have witnessed many in the same pain as me. I know I have by reading here.
It is tolerable and still allows an enjoyable,fulfilling life.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> So here is the thing that I have never really understood. It's the sequence of the thing. You fall in love. You get married. Then what? Not only does s/he turn into a completely different person; a liar a cheat with no regard for spouse' feelings, the partner can't even tell! What does that say about the state of closeness before they were able to get away with all this deceit? Not very good. You know what the lion's share of the BS did notice, and not until retrospect? Their partner's new attire.
> 
> My husband and I have been having less than perfect times lately. He started ... not exactly lying. I was like ohhhh maaaan are you so full of sh!t your behind smells. Fess it.
> 
> ...


Where to start? Your post made little sense to me. I had difficulty following it.

You can find the WS's version re problems on many of their threads.So,if you wonder,just read some.
I have my doubts re their versions due to their histories of lying and their motivatio to justify. And,it is absurd to think a marriage is,neccessarily over if one spouse feels the need to inform the other that things are bad. How incrdeibly shallow. It is called communicating and not expecting clairvoyance from your spouse.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> I, personally, think it is a very meaningful distinction. But, anytime a new WS comes to TAM and posts their story, the moment they start to share any background information into the pre-A marriage, they are immediately shut down, and told that saying anything other than "I am a selfish, remorseless, uncaring *****, who cares about no one but myself, please help me figure out what's wrong with me so that I can become a better person and spend the rest of my life becoming a living sacrifice trying to make this up to my BS, if they will have me."
> 
> Now, from what you have shared about your story, it would seem that if your ex-wife had come here and posted 10 years ago, that statement might not have been inaccurate. But, I can tell you, that if B1 would have required that sort of response from me, or he had jumped on the bandwagon of those who were posting those types of comments to me, we would not be together today.
> 
> ...


Perhaps our situations are so different you cannot relate. I am fully able to function and enjoy life while still feeling some pain. I liken it to when I played basketball. There was always some pain but it did not prevent me from enjoying playing.
I have spoken to many,many betrayed folks and just about all of the have some residual pain.
You and your husband have had the chance to talk and figure things out. That is an entirely different experience than what those of us who ,simply,had their spouses walk away,no explanation,no remorse,no apology.
So,I do not feel you can relate to my situation.
I do not know if you have read Susan Anderson's book, "The Journey from Abandonment to Healing". It was very enlightening for me as she explains how for people with certain types of histories( as in my case sexual abuse and a drunken,highly abusive pardnt), are affected much more,from a chemical reaction in their brain,than those from a less traumatized background.
My XWwas my only partner,ever. I trusted her so much. I loved her so much. Then,I found that during our entire marriage,she serially cheated.
So,that is going to always be painful for me.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Perhaps our situations are so different you cannot relate. I am fully able to function and enjoy life while still feeling some pain. I liken it to when I played basketball. There was always some pain but it did not prevent me from enjoying playing.
> I have spoken to many,many betrayed folks and just about all of the have some residual pain.
> You and your husband have had the chance to talk and figure things out. That is an entirely different experience than what those of us who ,simply,had their spouses walk away,no explanation,no remorse,no apology.
> So,I do not feel you can relate to my situation.
> ...


My marriage was very different than yours, @Maxo. And, while I cannot relate, from personal experience, the depth of your pain is so intense, it's palpable. So, I'm not going to suggest that you _get over it, _ I'm just going to say that I'm truly very sorry that you've been hurt so deeply.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> My marriage was very different than yours, @Maxo. And, while I cannot relate, from personal experience, the depth of your pain is so intense, it's palpable. So, I'm not going to suggest that you _get over it, _ I'm just going to say that I'm truly very sorry that you've been hurt so deeply.


Thank you. I appreciate it. I always wonder about the " get over it folks". I know this is not original,but I have wondered if someone had lost a child or spouse,if folks would be so adamant that he or she be pain free.
It is likw we pay lip service to feigning belief that what the books and therapsts say about this type of betrayal rivaling rape or loss of a child. But,when the rubber meets the road and we encounter a betrayed spouse in pain,we cannot accept that it is just like those other two things in terms of seriousness.
I doubt,if this was a forum for sexual abuse victims or grieving parents,there would be anywhere near the number of folks saying move on etc.
It is not volitional,feeling this pain. It is the natural consequence for those with a certain childhood history,according to Anderson.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> However, true love seems to have won out here although, it is not the norm.


How do you know the norm? I've never seen verifiable statistics.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Maxo said:


> Thank you. I appreciate it. I always wonder about the " get over it folks". I know this is not original,but I have wondered if someone had lost a child or spouse,if folks would be so adamant that he or she be pain free.
> It is likw we pay lip service to feigning belief that what the books and therapsts say about this type of betrayal rivaling rape or loss of a child. But,when the rubber meets the road and we encounter a betrayed spouse in pain,we cannot accept that it is just like those other two things in terms of seriousness.
> I doubt,if this was a forum for sexual abuse victims or grieving parents,there would be anywhere near the number of folks saying move on etc.
> It is not volitional,feeling this pain. It is the natural consequence for those with a certain childhood history,according to Anderson.


I agree. "Get over it" is a tall order. I would say "Get past it as much as you can". But infidelity changes you forever.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Maxo said:


> My XWwas my only partner,ever. I trusted her so much. I loved her so much. Then,I found that during our entire marriage,she serially cheated.
> So,that is going to always be painful for me.


Dam, that is brutal Maxo, although I cannot relate I can do imagine how devastating that would be, ugh.... That will always feel painful to some extent, how could it not?


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I agree. "Get over it" is a tall order. I would say "Get past it as much as you can". But infidelity changes you forever.


I agree, Waz. Unfortunately, many BS's here don't really want to get over it. They want to dwell on it, for years. Why else would we constantly see them actually INFLATE the affair, until it is the worst thing in the history of the world? Equating the affair to the loss of a loved one, murder , or high treason. And demonizing the participants (equating them to Hitler, serial killers , Etc) until they are positively Satanic. These people aren't even trying to improve themselves, the are wallowing in self pity. Some of these affairs have taken place decades ago, yet they are still the main thoughts in their minds. I cannot see how this is a healthy lifestyle nor do I see it as a positive form of coping, in any way.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Rookie4 said:


> I agree, Waz. Unfortunately, many BS's here don't really want to get over it. They want to dwell on it, for years. Why else would we constantly see them actually INFLATE the affair, until it is the worst thing in the history of the world? Equating the affair to the loss of a loved one, murder , or high treason. And demonizing the participants (equating them to Hitler, serial killers , Etc) until they are positively Satanic. These people aren't even trying to improve themselves, the are wallowing in self pity. Some of these affairs have taken place decades ago, yet they are still the main thoughts in their minds. I cannot see how this is a healthy lifestyle nor do I see it as a positive form of coping, in any way.


Inflating it is a matter of opinion. For many BSs it is very traumatizing and will hurt for a very long time. Yet, I expect most of us are living our lives, enjoying things etc. just like you.
And, IMO, there is little doubt that the folks who cheat and destroy their families, affecting their kids for life, are miscreants of the highest order. Many are personality disordered, NPDs etc, IMO.
Satanic, well, they expose their spouses to STDs, squander family assets, rob time form their families, interfere with other families, gaslight and convince their spouses they are going crazy with suspicion.
As I said in another thread, I believe that the attendant abuse, the gaslighting, criticism, withholding affection inexplicably. stealing is more a source of pain than the actual sex. 
So, it may not be something one just gets over and the need to vent and get a handle on the type of person they were dealing with is okay, IMO.
I find the way you view your XW, a big time cheater, delusional. But, that is just my opinion.
Regardless, I would put the enjoyment I get out of life right up there with yours.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Wazza said:


> How do you know the norm? I've never seen verifiable statistics.


The norm in these sites: TAM, SI, Loveshack, MB etc

Its not the norm for a wife to fvck another man over a sustained period without the knowledge of her husband and then have the husband recover, fix himself and reconcile for a really happy and loving and even stronger marriage going forward.

I don't think I need to compile the numbers to come up with that conclusion.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> The norm in these sites: TAM, SI, Loveshack, MB etc
> 
> Its not the norm for a wife to fvck another man over a sustained period without the knowledge of her husband and then have the husband recover, fix himself and reconcile for a really happy and loving and even stronger marriage going forward.
> 
> I don't think I need to compile the numbers to come up with that conclusion.


OK, MFL. From your post, it seems that your are in the divorce camp like I am. EI and B1 are obviously in the Reconciliation camp. Both have their good points and their drawbacks, but at least we both are doing something.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Its not so much a camp as much as the situation around cheating for most.

A WW spouse cheats, gets clumsy, gets found out, gaslights, then rewrites marital history and tries to leave for the AP. Often the AP throws them under the bus and every now and then they go for a fake reconciliation. If not, then they split up and everyone including children have to deal with the aftermath. That is kind of the norm.

In the rare cases, WS is discovered, BS wants to work it out, WS wants to work it out and all have a very difficult task ahead of them with no guaranteed success. An even smaller percentage actually make it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> Its not so much a camp as much as the situation around cheating for most.
> 
> A WW spouse cheats, gets clumsy, gets found out, gaslights, then rewrites marital history and tries to leave for the AP. Often the AP throws them under the bus and every now and then they go for a fake reconciliation. If not, then they split up and everyone including children have to deal with the aftermath. That is kind of the norm.
> 
> In the rare cases, WS is discovered, BS wants to work it out, WS wants to work it out and all have a very difficult task ahead of them with no guaranteed success. An even smaller percentage actually make it.


With the greatest respect, yes you do need to compile numbers before stating whether something is normal. Without numbers, you don't know. 

The only reason I ask the question is that it sometimes becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. People say "most people wouldn't reconcile" with no idea whether it's true, and for some it becomes a justification. 

TAM is not necessarily representative. When B1 had his reconciliation thread, I had come here with a decades old affair. And there were several couples reconciling from more recent events. Different flavour from most of TAM, and I think the mods protected it a bit. Most of the people moved on, I'm sure in part because TAM can be so negative that you need to get away from it to move forward in a positive direction.

What I am saying is not an attack on those who choose not to reconcile, I'm just saying there are alternatives, and if you only listen to the vets on TAM you might get a distorted picture. I am sure that my marriage would have ended had I followed the standard TAM mantras.

Just putting it out there.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> OK, MFL. From your post, it seems that your are in the divorce camp like I am. EI and B1 are obviously in the Reconciliation camp. Both have their good points and their drawbacks, but at least we both are doing something.


Rookie, these are different things. It takes only one to cheat. But it takes two to reconcile.

And it gets worse. I insist that many cases of cheating involve a wandering spouse who feels rejected in some way by their spouse. And reconciliation for that couple cannot come unless the rejection is dealt with as well as the cheating.

But in many cases the rejection is not dealt with. In my experience many times it is the husband who rejects and does not realize it. We see this in stories by wives of simply not being able to get through to their husbands.

So the matter is complex and there is no "one size fits all" here. Some marriages can be reconciled, some can't.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Wazza said:


> With the greatest respect, yes you do need to compile numbers before stating whether something is normal. Without numbers, you don't know.
> 
> The only reason I ask the question is that it sometimes becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. People say "most people wouldn't reconcile" with no idea whether it's true, and for some it becomes a justification.
> 
> ...


With the greatest respect, not everybody communicates what is statistically the norm. Most folks communicate their own normal.

This line of thinking is akin to trying to find universal social truths when there really is no such thing.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> With the greatest respect, not everybody communicates what is statistically the norm. Most folks communicate their own normal.
> 
> This line of thinking is akin to trying to find universal social truths when there really is no such thing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


If there is no universal truth, was it valid for Man to state that B1's experience was not normal? 

I don't care about statistics. I care about people who want to try and reconcile knowing that it is possible, and not hopeless. There are no guarantees, but its not hopeless. Just knowing it is possible can sometimes make the difference between giving up and succeeding. 

Some people who try will fail, and others will reach a point where they "fix himself and reconcile for a really happy and loving and even stronger marriage going forward."


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

I relied on my therapist who said a large part of his practice involved counseling couple who had infidelity as an issue. He is well credentialed and well respected. He said about 10percent of them stay together.
I also tried to find stats from sites other than those selling their reconcilliation services,as their stats seemed so out of line with my therapist. I kept seeing the figure of around 30percent staying together with no analysis of whether the couple was happy.
Based on that,I concluded that a happy reconciliation was not common.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

sidney2718 said:


> Rookie, these are different things. It takes only one to cheat. But it takes two to reconcile.
> 
> And it gets worse. I insist that many cases of cheating involve a wandering spouse who feels rejected in some way by their spouse. And reconciliation for that couple cannot come unless the rejection is dealt with as well as the cheating.
> 
> ...


There is no evidence of this,andthis kind of thinking is out of touch with the reality that men are nothing like the Al Bundy characters we see them often portrayed as.
There are just as many men whose need for emotional intimacy is not being met and who feel rejected.
And,many cheaters have unrealistic expectations re what another person can provide emotionally. Just look at the stats on the failure rates of marriages to affair partners. After a relatively short period,most crumble as,once again,the cheaters start feeling dissatified.
Cheaters are bottomless pits of "need". Noone can meet their "needs".
Look at folks like Paul Newman,who cheated on his first wife to be with Woodward,and then cheated on Woodward. And,that is a couple held up as the paragon of marital fidelity in Hollywood.
Look at John McCain,Charles Kurralt, held in high esteem but,inreality big time cheaters.
These men( and I could list more and women as well) had good spouses.Same with JFK and MLK.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Great to hear from B1!!!

I have a lot of respect for that man.

The hardest thing is to look at one's self and change. It is hard to admit mistakes. It is easier to hate than to love. Easier to destroy than forgive.

True love does win out. Few have the love EI and B1 have.

In the end, B1 will never find someone who loves him more than EI.

As a team they can overcome anything.

I salute you B1!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Maxo said:


> I relied on my therapist who said a large part of his practice involved counseling couple who had infidelity as an issue. He is well credentialed and well respected. He said about 10percent of them stay together.
> I also tried to find stats from sites other than those selling their reconcilliation services,as their stats seemed so out of line with my therapist. I kept seeing the figure of around 30percent staying together with no analysis of whether the couple was happy.
> Based on that,I concluded that a happy reconciliation was not common.


i did similar research, with a wide range of answers. I tend to assume 30-40% reconcile, but I can't prove that. That's enough of a figure for me to see reconciliation as worth considering if someone wants to try, but not a slam dunk. 

I have no idea how to measure happiness, and I can't imagine there ever being a marriage that has survived an affair having zero sadness. We are human. I think I would have been unhappy in some ways whatever choice I made. But I am at peace. If my marriage ends tomorrow (which I'm not expecting!!!!) it will be for reasons other than the affair.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Rookie, these are different things. It takes only one to cheat. But it takes two to reconcile.
> 
> And it gets worse. I insist that many cases of cheating involve a wandering spouse who feels rejected in some way by their spouse. And reconciliation for that couple cannot come unless the rejection is dealt with as well as the cheating.
> 
> ...


I don't recall ever saying that "one size fits all". I think , Syd, that you misread my post. My point was that reconciliation can take many forms. As far as the causes of cheating go, I think that is for another thread.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

1


Wazza said:


> If there is no universal truth, was it valid for Man to state that B1's experience was not normal?
> 
> I don't care about statistics. I care about people who want to try and reconcile knowing that it is possible, and not hopeless. There are no guarantees, but its not hopeless. Just knowing it is possible can sometimes make the difference between giving up and succeeding.
> 
> Some people who try will fail, and others will reach a point where they "fix himself and reconcile for a really happy and loving and even stronger marriage going forward."


I think that the problem here is that people are equating reconciliation with saving the marriage, when, in fact they are two different things. EI and B1 had one form of reconciliation, which included saving the marriage. My ex wife and I had another form of reconciliation which did not include saving the marriage. And, very likely, your version of reconciliation is different in some way , as well.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> i did similar research, with a wide range of answers. I tend to assume 30-40% reconcile, but I can't prove that. That's enough of a figure for me to see reconciliation as worth considering if someone wants to try, but not a slam dunk.
> 
> I have no idea how to measure happiness, and I can't imagine there ever being a marriage that has survived an affair having zero sadness. We are human. I think I would have been unhappy in some ways whatever choice I made. But I am at peace. If my marriage ends tomorrow (which I'm not expecting!!!!) it will be for reasons other than the affair.


I would think that the numbers of marriages that reconcile are far higher than 30-40%. The problem here is that the only marriages that can be monitored are those that have sought counseling. I would bet that most of the marriages with cheating are never involved with, or refered to, counseling or are even kept quiet. I can name 5 or 6 such marriages off the top of my head. Also something to consider, since Adultery is no longer grounds for divorce in most states, it isn't used as such in the majority of cases. It wasn't in mine.


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## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

Congratulations to B1 and EI on reaching your milestone.

And, from the responses here, there is still a strong "divorce" sentiment here. Rather than just jump into one camp or the other, I think it would be useful to hear more stories like yours, as well as stories in which reconciliation attempts fail, in an attempt to discern the factors that predict success.

That way, when someone new comes here to post their story, we could give informed guidance. "You ought to divorce because your situation has the traits X, Y, Z than are predictive of reconciliation failure," or "You ought to try to save the marriage because your situation has elements A, B, C which are seen in successful reconciliations."

So, maybe Maxo's divorce reaction was the best for him because his situation had .....?..... traits. EI and B1 made it because of......?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Wazza said:


> If there is no universal truth, was it valid for Man to state that B1's experience was not normal?
> 
> I don't care about statistics. I care about people who want to try and reconcile knowing that it is possible, and not hopeless. There are no guarantees, but its not hopeless. Just knowing it is possible can sometimes make the difference between giving up and succeeding.
> 
> Some people who try will fail, and others will reach a point where they "fix himself and reconcile for a really happy and loving and even stronger marriage going forward."


As has been said, I can only quote my own experience and that of the boards I mentioned. It would be time consuming to compile numbers in this case as the odds are overwhelmingly as I stated (so no need to).

You seem to be defending your decision to reconcile - you don't need to - as Sidney said, it is different for everyone and everyone needs to make their own decisions. TAM does not "make" anyone do anything. It simply opens their eyes to what possibly may be going on in their situation by giving as many possible views as possible.

If you are truly interested in promoting reconciliation then you must start with uncovering the truth. Why ? Because reconciliation, with regard to the BS, starts with forgiveness. And you need to know what you are forgiving. Unfortunately, many WS's make it difficult to know the truth by trickle-truthing, denying and downright lying and deceiving. This is not always the case.

LosingHim is a great example who admits she screwed up and has gone the distance to make it right whatever the outcome. A lot of respect for her effort. Not the norm from what I have seen.

EI discovered her love for B1 after B1 put in (in what is my opinion) a superhuman effort to fix himself and his marriage. Not that his behaviour should have caused cheating, but EI clearly acknowledges that. Again, not the norm from what I have seen.

DevastatedDad has a wife who wants to reconcile and appears to be truly sorry (ChangingMe) - however I am not sure DevastatedDad can and will - the jury is still out on this one. TAM hasn't pushed him into doing anything - he took in all that was said and is making his own decisions.

A lot has to do with the nature of the betrayal - with whom (friends and relatives are the worst), how long, where (home, marital bed), whether kids were present, the level of deceit, whether WW bashed BS to AP, whether WW slept with BS after sleeping with AP - see - there are all kinds of level of disrespect before deciding whether you want to continue being married to such a person. TAM does its damnedest to stop rug sweeping and help the BS not stick their head in the sand and keep their eyes open.

Now if that is anti- reconciliation, then so be it.

And I do not agree that there is ALWAYS a problem with the marriage that leads a WW to stray. Sometimes it is down to basic lust, self-entitledness and loose morals. As simple as that - what the good book might describe as being "bad". In this case reconciliation is downright foolhardy.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> As has been said, I can only quote my own experience and that of the boards I mentioned. It would be time consuming to compile numbers in this case as the odds are overwhelmingly as I stated (so no need to).
> 
> You seem to be defending your decision to reconcile - you don't need to - as Sidney said, it is different for everyone and everyone needs to make their own decisions. TAM does not "make" anyone do anything. It simply opens their eyes to what possibly may be going on in their situation by giving as many possible views as possible.
> 
> ...


Not defending my decision to reconcile at all, and I don't know your story so not making judgements of your case. I thought telling B1 his experience was not normal was wrong and unhelpful, so I put an alternate view. I have a lot of respect for what he and EI did, and for EI's continued participation here. 

Our views are out there. People can read them and decide. And there will be people in both camps. All good.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Not defending my decision to reconcile at all, and I don't know your story so not making judgements of your case. I thought telling B1 his experience was not normal was wrong and unhelpful, so I put an alternate view. I have a lot of respect for what he and EI did, and for EI's continued participation here.
> 
> Our views are out there. People can read them and decide. And there will be people in both camps. All good.


Agreed - and by the way, not normal does not mean not good. Not normal could mean exceptionally good! This is the case with B1 (IMO). So I don't fully understand why you think it was wrong and unhelpful.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> As has been said, I can only quote my own experience and that of the boards I mentioned. It would be time consuming to compile numbers in this case as the odds are overwhelmingly as I stated (so no need to).
> 
> You seem to be defending your decision to reconcile - you don't need to - as Sidney said, it is different for everyone and everyone needs to make their own decisions. TAM does not "make" anyone do anything. It simply opens their eyes to what possibly may be going on in their situation by giving as many possible views as possible.
> 
> ...





manfromlamancha said:


> Agreed - and by the way, not normal does not mean not good. Not normal could mean exceptionally good! This is the case with B1 (IMO). So I don't fully understand why you think it was wrong and unhelpful.


Perhaps we could agree to say that the results were not _typical_ rather than not _normal_.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

EI said:


> Perhaps we could agree to say that the results were not _typical_ rather than not _normal_.


OK - I agree - not typical it is then. 
:smile2:


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

B1 and EI - I couldn't imagine a different outcome for the 2 of you with the benefit of hindsight and having seen what the two of you have accomplished - so well done.

Besides, in the picture of B1's avatar, the two of you look so God damn cute together!


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> OK, MFL. From your post, it seems that your are in the divorce camp like I am. EI and B1 are obviously in the Reconciliation camp. Both have their good points and their drawbacks, but at least we both are doing something.


I think that for many of us there are no "camps". I try to look at each case on its own. About 65% of the time I favor divorce. The other 35% I think the marriage can be saved.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> B1 and EI - I couldn't imagine a different outcome for the 2 of you with the benefit of hindsight and having seen what the two of you have accomplished - so well done.
> 
> Besides, in the picture of B1's avatar, the two of you look so God damn cute together!


B1 is a handsome devil, isn't he?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

When I found TAM I read most of the CWI threads. At that point in time I needed to learn about affairs, the many nuances of affairs, and how to get a confession. I finally figured that out and got the confession I so desperately needed. I learned about trickle truth, cheaters script, what we kissed meant, and the pain I was heading for. I had no idea how painful this was going to be, and even from reading thread after thread, it was more painful then I had imagined. After the confession, I needed to switch gears, I found the reconciliation thread. 

This thread helped to give me life, hope, and that my life wasn't completely hopeless. I learned so much from the reconciliation thread, I incorporated posts in the thread with my IC. Reading the reconciliation thread was difficult for me. So many emotions from high to low to funny and sad. I was amazed by many of the posters that could talk or write so freely, exposing their hearts to everyone. I will share that I have laughed, cried, become angry, hopeful, hopeless, faithless, and faithful from that thread. That thread has provided so much help for me. 

I have enormous respect for both B1 and EI for what they have accomplished in their marriage, and in their personal lives. For me, these two posters are superhuman, and they are both very kind to help others. It is my hope that my marriage becomes what they have built together. They worked very hard, they communicated extensively, and their love for each other absolutely incredible. 

B1 and EI I pray that peace and happiness stays in your home, stays in your hearts, and in your marriage. Thank you to you both for posting here, teaching me, and most of all helping me to recover. I can't thank either of you enough, your selfless acts towards humanity is so inspiring. God bless you both.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

EI said:


> B1 is a handsome devil, isn't he?


Aye, that he is. And a cheeky smile too. Same goes for you too.

Thats what I'll call the two of you - the "cheeky-smiled couple".


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Maxo said:


> Where to start? Your post made little sense to me. I had difficulty following it.
> 
> You can find the WS's version re problems on many of their threads.So,if you wonder,just read some.
> I have my doubts re their versions due to their histories of lying and their motivatio to justify. And,it is absurd to think a marriage is,neccessarily over if one spouse feels the need to inform the other that things are bad. How incrdeibly shallow. It is called communicating and not expecting clairvoyance from your spouse.


I don't think my questioning of this has to do with your situation which sounds much more complex. I am more speaking to the context of the thread regarding WS's being able to express their positions, especially in hind site. 

What I am referring to is the script that goes something like one partner expressing their discontent over long periods of time. To the person hearing it is a "little" problem. To the person vocalizing, maybe not so much. As the months and years go buy of feeling unattractive, not interesting and taken for granted by their mate, what are they supposed to say about it being "bad enough" to cheat? You know what, honey? The next time someone expresses interest in me, finds me attractive and fun, funny, cares to talk to me, I think my feelings are going to overwhelm my sense. You see honey, the problems are "bad enough" for you to really take them seriously now. Oh no, I am not bitter that you ignored them for years. Ok, yes I am. That is just one more thing that makes my heart hurt enough to want it filled with something else.

Would that people understood that that is where they were. Would that people knew how to communicate with clue-by-fours that extend beyond just talking AGAIN about the same old thing.

I don't think people going into cheating seeking to be lying sacks of ****. (Well clearly some people do. There are people of all stripes, including steaming piles of poo. Those people are of no interest to me since they are irreclaimable. They are best left alone.) I think that comes later when they are unable to reconcile the new chemicals making them feel all shiny inside from their new AP with their love and would-be commitment to their family. They try to bail the boat one wave of crisis at a time without a clear vision of how to get the boat out of the storm.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think my questioning of this has to do with your situation which sounds much more complex. I am more speaking to the context of the thread regarding WS's being able to express their positions, especially in hind site.
> 
> What I am referring to is the script that goes something like one partner expressing their discontent over long periods of time. To the person hearing it is a "little" problem. To the person vocalizing, maybe not so much. As the months and years go buy of feeling unattractive, not interesting and taken for granted by their mate, what are they supposed to say about it being "bad enough" to cheat? You know what, honey? The next time someone expresses interest in me, finds me attractive and fun, funny, cares to talk to me, I think my feelings are going to overwhelm my sense. You see honey, the problems are "bad enough" for you to really take them seriously now. Oh no, I am not bitter that you ignored them for years. Ok, yes I am. That is just one more thing that makes my heart hurt enough to want it filled with something else.


The edit button does not seem to be working, so I will talk to myself here.  They are not thinking this consciously, of course. They may know that they feel lonely, unattractive and unappreciated by their spouse with no further clue what to do about it. And someone comes along and does find them attractive, interesting... They probably had no idea how much they wanted it. When it happens, it is like a shot of heroin.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't think my questioning of this has to do with your situation which sounds much more complex. I am more speaking to the context of the thread regarding WS's being able to express their positions, especially in hind site.
> 
> What I am referring to is the script that goes something like one partner expressing their discontent over long periods of time. To the person hearing it is a "little" problem. To the person vocalizing, maybe not so much. As the months and years go buy of feeling unattractive, not interesting and taken for granted by their mate, what are they supposed to say about it being "bad enough" to cheat? You know what, honey? The next time someone expresses interest in me, finds me attractive and fun, funny, cares to talk to me, I think my feelings are going to overwhelm my sense. You see honey, the problems are "bad enough" for you to really take them seriously now. Oh no, I am not bitter that you ignored them for years. Ok, yes I am. That is just one more thing that makes my heart hurt enough to want it filled with something else.
> 
> ...


A couple of things.
First, IMO, the situation you describe is exceedingly rare. I think you may be able to tell by the quality of the posts her and on other boards, that not many BSs are the types that ignore pleas for change or help. Rather, the posters who I read, for the most part, strike me as thoughtful, sensitive people who, based on their own stories, were more than willing to listen to and work on problems.
When assessing the claims by a WS that for years etc he or she tried to get counseling or discus problems. I think it is legitimate to factor in that the WS claiming this, is , by definition, a person who has demonstrated an incredible aptitude for and willingness to lie. And, the WS has huge motivation to lie bout this type of thing, as well, both because of dealing with cognitive dissonance within and to gain allies from the outside world to justify
But, let's assume the situation you describe is an accurate pertrayl of exactly the cheating how things were in the marriage, the lack of communication or ignoring deal.
Yes, I absolutely believe that any decent, responsible adult would disclose his or her intentions to cheat or the tempataions he or she is facing. It may be embarrassing, painful cause conflict, etc. But, compare that to the devastation caused by cheating and it is a small price to pay.
And, here is where the rationalizing really fails: there are other, innocent people, like the cheater's own kids and/or those of the AP, as well as the AP's spouse, in many, many of these situations.
None of these innocents have ignored the cheater or done the cheater any harm. So, there can be no justifying injuring them so terribly as is done by cheating. 
Yet, we repeatedly see cheaters willing to do so. And, this willingness to hurt innocent people, people that even the cheater has to admit did no harm and were not ignoring etc, cast doubt on the cheater's credibility further re the cheater's version of what the pre-affair marriage conditions were ( sorry about that run-n sentence).


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

Maxo: They are thoughtful and accepting of criticisms they accept. The other criticisms are just the ravings of a lying piece of crap, namely the cheating spouse.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

EI said:


> B1 is a handsome devil, isn't he?


Reminds me a lot of myself,in my younger days.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

sidney2718 said:


> Maxo: They are thoughtful and accepting of criticisms they accept. The other criticisms are just the ravings of a lying piece of crap, namely the cheating spouse.


Or you just don't understand. 

There are parts of my spouse where I think "How can she possible see the world that way?? That makes no sense!?!"

When I was younger I was sometimes guilty of dismissing those things. Now I realise they were, and are, important.

You have to really try to empathise, even when it's not easy. And someone is not automatically a liar or a moron because they can't empathise with you in a given situation.


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