# An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

At the eleventh hour, my WH decided to be a decent person. He let up on me with the endless silent treatments and actually sent me an email asking us to try MC.

This, after I deleted my latest thread and put several things on CL to sell to move out and leave this whole failed mess in the rearview.

I have been trying for 2 years in R. A completely false R. Of course, NOW he wants to try, when I have one foot (both feet?) out the door.

I feel like this is just part of the cycle we go through. I know our relationship is very narc.-codep. leaning. I have little faith this will last more than a day or 2 before the silence sets in again. 

I have also heard you should not go to MC to see if you can work it out. You have to be dedicated to fixing things.

clay told me to be proud of myself for holding out this long, and not to be afraid of change.

clipclop told me if he really wanted to fix the marriage that people here would help. So I am asking for help.

If anyone knows my story....please write a post to my husband. I need help and cant describe anything without getting angry and emotional. I feel I have been fair describing our relationship, although I realize it is only one side of the story.

I am thinking of asking him to post in CWI as a condition of me staying, asking for advice from his side of things and deal with the betrayal that is tearing our marriage apart. I doubt any of this will matter but he reached out in love and not anger, so I am responding.

Thank you to everyone who has helped me here.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

You will enable him to see methodology to avoid detecting his cheating.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> You will enable him to see methodology to avoid detecting his cheating.


He is already a member here and regularly reads my threads, so my sanctuary is already gone. Thanks, WL but he already knows all about TAM.


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## brokeneric (Jan 27, 2014)

Put a poll out on TAM. You would see how many TAMers are there who would give a hand and a leg to be with a woman who fights for her husband. What makes me angry is your WH doesn't get it. Apologies if that was inappropriate.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

The Healing Library 
What the WS/BS Must Do to Reconcile 

JUST GET OVER IT ALREADY! 
How many times has that been said to you? If it has been said to you even once, then that is a big red flag! No one has the right to tell this to you. If it is your therapist telling you this, then you need a new therapist because obviously this one has no understanding of infidelity. If it is your spouse telling you this, then they have no understanding of the devastation that they have caused. 
In order to "get over it", you and your spouse must be given the proper tools and a map. I do not feel that you can successfully navigate the road from infidelity towards healing without these two things. 

You do not really "get over it"...you can move beyond it, but you will carry the scars for life as a reminder. You do not forget, but you can forgive...if and only if you and your spouse have the tools and the map. 

The former cheating spouse has the biggest responsibility in the healing process. They hold the key for the healing of you and your marriage. 

Your spouse must be willing to make it their mission in life to heal you...no matter how long it takes. They should not have to even ask you what you need to help you heal...they should seek professional advice from others and start implementing it immediately. Maybe down the road they will need to seek your own personal advice. You hold the timeline to your own healing. 

They need to explain to the children, if they are old enough, that they have hurt you terribly and that they are doing everything to help you heal. They need to tell the children that it is not the children's fault or the betrayed spouses fault. If they see the betrayed spouse getting angry at the former cheating spouse, that this is normal and well deserved and part of healing. They are to be told that they are not to blame the betrayed spouse for their emotional outbursts toward the cheating spouse and that the betrayed spouse should be commended for being willing to give them another chance because they do not deserve it. 

In order for your marriage to successfully survive these are some things that your spouse must do: 

He must be totally honest with you about everything 
He must answer every question that you ask truthfully and fully. 
He must do everything in his power to prove to you that you are the one that he wants to be with. 
He must prove his love to you...he must be patient, gentle, compassionate and understanding. 
He must feel your pain. 
He must fully understand the devastation that he caused you. 
He must accept full responsibility for his actions. 
He must stop all contact with OP and not try to protect them. 
He must reassure you that it is OK to ask questions. 
He must reassure you that you will not drive him away by doing the things that are necessary to heal. 
He must recognize when your struggling or experiencing a trigger and comfort you. 
He must be able to tell you how sorry he is and show you. 
He must re-enforce to you, that you are not responsible. 
He must put his own feelings of guilt and shame aside and help you heal first. 
He must reconnect emotionally, mentally, and physically with you and stay connected. 
He must work on rebuilding trust. No secrets. No privacy. 
He must be willing to seek counseling. 
He must learn what is and is not acceptable when communicating with the opposite sex...he must establish boundaries and not cross them. 
Here is a list of things that you must do: 
Give him the necessary time to prove his love and commitment to you. 
Be open with your feelings. 
Ask the questions that are important to you. 
Don't be afraid that you will drive him away while you are trying to heal. 
Stop blaming yourself for his actions. You are in no way responsible...even if you are Attila the Hun! 
You must be able to let him connect with you. (this one takes time) 
You must continue checking up on him in order to let him rebuild trust. 
You must be willing to seek counseling so that you do not get stuck in one of the stages of recovery such as anger or depression. 
These are just a few of the things that I have thought of off the top of my head. With these things in place, then reconciliation can be successful. It is still a long journey, but with baby steps it can be achieved. For me, with all these things in place it took about 1 1/2 years to get to a really comfortable place. Without a majority of these things, I do not see how reconciliation can be successful. 
If you were to decide to climb Mt Everest and you looked in the phone book under expeditions and called a company and told them that you wanted to climb Mt Everest and they said great. Then you would ask them how to do it. If their reply was to "just get over it", then I am sure that you would call some other company. You would know that it would require the proper tools and a map and a team approach. Well, you are facing a mountain that you need and want to climb. You cannot "just get over it". It doesn't happen that way. It will take the proper tools and a map and team work. 

The majority of the things that I mentioned must take place from BOTH spouses before a successful reconciliation takes place. I am also only addressing reconciliation here, however the betrayed spouse has other options. If your spouse is doing EVERYTHING that has been recommended by the therapist to help you heal and you have made NO progress after say 1 year, then the betrayed spouse probably needs a new therapist who can help her better evaluate the situation and help her to start giving her spouse credit for what he is doing or come up with other options rather than reconciliation. Some betrayed spouses cannot reconcile no matter what their spouse does, but they may need therapy to move beyond the infidelity anyway. 

If after 6 mos, the betrayed spouse has NOT progressed and the former cheating spouse is NOT doing his part, then there is no reason to expect any progress from the betrayed spouse toward reconciliation. Each person has a role in the reconciliation process...including knowing when enough is enough. I would never expect a former cheating spouse to be able to hang in there after 1 1/2 to 2 years of doing EVERYTHING recommended and seeing NO progress from the BS. I would also never expect a betrayed spouse to hang on for years if her spouse is doing NOTHING to help her heal. 

I believe that forgiveness is independent of the cheater helping you heal. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself...not the other person. 

In the early stages the former cheater needs to find out from professionals what to do to help you heal. The wounded spouse is often in no condition to be able to know this in the beginning. Once the wounded spouse is down the road towards recovery, then they will be able to fine tune what is needed, but initially...no way. 


Erica 

Return to The Healing Library Articles


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Mr. LWC's Husband,

If you are sincere, and I hope you are, you have to follow through. So make that appointment with the MC.  

This isn't going to be easy. The secrets you keep are going to be painful to share and to hear. LWC obviously loves you enough to fight through all of this. It can't get much worse than what she fears so while difficult, this is one step into the light. 

I read you need to focus on what it is you want in a marriage and then pull out all the stops to build it. LWC says you are very creative and very talented. Draw on that talent.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He is already a member here and regularly reads my threads, so my sanctuary is already gone. Thanks, WL but he already knows all about TAM.


*WHAT?!?!? * Come again!?!? 

Maybe I just don't understand this whole dynamic but setting the fox up with a cozy bed and inviting him to move into the henhouse probably wasn't the best plan for reconciliation.

Open letter to the fox:

**** You! Let me go. I deserve better. I'm not a consolation prize. I'm a amazing person with a huge heart, I deserve to love and be loved in return. I'm done.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Here's my letter to him...

Too little, too late honey. I'm fine if the door hits you on the way out.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I didn't know I was letting the fox into the hen house, btw.....I came here 2 years ago and told him about it, thought it would help if we became members here and got perspective on what we were facing. Thought it would help to talk it out with others going through the same thing.

I came here to try to save my family. I kept on, he fell off after very few posts.

I am not inviting him here after a failed R, we were both already here from day one. My intentions were to get support and help and perspective.

If he wants to keep going, he would have to go through the deep reasons he almost threw our marriage away. The people here have helped me wake up and realize my part of the dance. I am so grateful for the help. I was inside of a bubble and could not see clearly.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> *WHAT?!?!? * Come again!?!?
> 
> Maybe I just don't understand this whole dynamic but setting the fox up with a cozy bed and inviting him to move into the henhouse probably wasn't the best plan for reconciliation.
> 
> ...


I was trying to save my family, I thought this was a place for both the WS and the BS to work through their stuff. When I found TAM I was doing it for us, not for me.

It was only after being here for many many months that I realized I needed support, not just my marriage.

No, obviously, it was the wrong choice, as I am now 2 years on and ready to move out of my house.

I didn't know it was wrong at the time to reach out for support for both of us.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Thats where true remorse comes in. If he had it, he would have stuck around TAM and tried to work on it WITH you. Not come here to read things just to get the upper hand with you and your emotions.

Mr LWC - Let her go. You don't even want her around you so what is the point of this song and dance you keep playing?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

He can do it if he is brave enough.

Every WS here knows how much pain they have to endure to get R to look remotely possible. So the guy is scared for good reason.

It is easier to lie. It is easier to run away. It is easier to blame the innocent spouse.

If he wants to try and is willing to take advice, support and more than a few two-by-fours, we should be there for this couple.

It won't take long before LWC knows if he is sincere.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I really am at the end. I can feel my mind breaking in two. This pitiful lostwifecrushed and all her codependent problems gave rise to altarego, the strong one who is just done.

I am tired of living in fear. Making decisions based on fear. Being so afraid of what was going to happen next that I had to make a private social group just to express all my pent up resentment.

I want to say thank you to vibride, clay, turnera, pieceofsky, clipclop, nucking, hopeful and everyone else who helped me navigate the birth of a stronger person, not as broken, more accepting that there are just some things that cannot change.

Acceptance. Of myself. Of my situation. Of my Hs issues, etc.

I dont know where it will go from here.

But I know I can never go back to being afraid.

I love my H deeply and want the best for him no matter how it all turns out. I am just asking here for help in case it is real, the breakthrough he is having, because if it is, he will need help and support.

I am not sure if I can stay in my living situation, even if we decide on MC and one more shot. I think I need to be on my own for a while.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> You need to do what is best for you not him. He gave up any consideration for himself when he cheated. If you are tired, if you have given up...then go. You have given it your best shot. But let me tell you this....we have been in r for thirty years...and I am so very glad my husband did not give up on me. I do not deserve this man.
> 
> You have my heartfelt best wishes.


Am I giving up if I dont want to continue in false R?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Wouldn't false R be a reason to give up? 

Well maybe not give up but put up boundaries that you are not ok being in a marriage on false pretenses.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

OP if he is a member here for over 2 years hasn't he read enough to understand what he is doing wrong and needs to fix ?

Or is it you need to do his heavy lifting here as well ? 
I mean really WTF gives here ?

He should be posting on what HE needs to do to fix this.. Not you !

Talk about being codependent, Holy Carp...

Where the fvck is he talking about the love he has for you ? 

You say you're strong, but in many ways your weak.. 

He is giving you the silent treatment ??? How fvcking rich !

How does it take 2 years to try to fix this ? Especially with a fake R.. 

Look this isn't a seesaw in a park. Its either you fix it or GTFO... 

Even my therapist tells me you can't draw the line and then not back it up.. Don't draw that line if you're not willing to back it up.. 

I think YOU need to come to terms with this and make a real honest decision here for the BOTH OF YOU..

To me it sees like your posting bravado for him to read but then honestly don't back it up.. 

He cheats on you and gives YOU the silent treatment ??

How much more does he need to walk all over you before you get that you're better than this and deserve better.. 

Trust me when I tell you this. Once you are out and about you will find many men much better than your husband and that make more money than him and never cheated on you..

Again trust me I didn't see this and I am the man which requires me to do the pursuing here.. I might not get the amount of dates a woman does, but without a doubt I would have no trouble finding a woman on any given week if I needed to.. 

You as a woman have the world by the ballz when it comes to the dating scene.. Dress nice and walk into any bar and see.. Bat an eyelash, give half a smile and you will have to beat them off with a stick..

I sat and watched my GF POF account get FLOODED with messages from men that seen she was online.. I mean FLOODED..


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

thanks, vibride I know something has happened to me. I can't go back. I feel its ok no matter what happens but I feel it will be hard on him, because I have changed.

I don't think he realizes how hard it will be. He'll have the house, but nothing more, if/when I leave. If I sell all the stuff and move out, which is my plan, he will be left with nothing.

I am asking for help here because its still my marriage. Its still my husband and my life. No matter what has happened, I don't want to hurt him or anyone else.

I need to take responsibility for myself, clipclop was right about that. Starting with taking emotional responsibility. That means leaving this false R situation and all its associated pain, behind.

My H is still an extraordinary person. He will continue to have these problems throughout life and in his next relationship if he fails to face them for our benefit.

As will I.

So I am asking for letters and posts, because they have helped me so much and I feel would be a great benefit to him.

Maybe something someone says will make a difference. It did for me. Coming here has saved me. It has been an unrepayable gift.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> No sweetheart...you are not. You have every right and only you have the real answers. You know your husband. You are a strong amazing woman who has tried her very best. You cannot do it by yourself. He has to do most of the work.


:iagree:

A false R stinks. A WH who gives lip service or a "I don't care attitude" stinks. Your WH is just a stinker.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Last year we started the process of selling our stuff. Antiques, etc. What was the worse was the stuff I made for her. Tables, etc. Fortunately she repented and came clean before I sold most of the stuff I made. 

When ever we sold a piece, it brought back memories of where we bought it, at a auction, a store, an antique shop, etc. It was not pleasant.

I feel for what you are going through.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> Last year we started the process of selling our stuff. Antiques, etc. What was the worse was the stuff I made for her. Tables, etc. Fortunately she repented and came clean before I sold most of the stuff I made.
> 
> When ever we sold a piece, it brought back memories of where we bought it, at a auction, a store, an antique shop, etc. It was not pleasant.
> 
> I feel for what you are going through.


Thanks Thor, this is where I am at. I don't feel I am weak for trying to help him with what I know will be the ton of bricks that will come down when stuff starts selling.

As I said before, we both came here initially and he fell off while I kept posting. I needed a lot of work. I needed a LOT OF HELP.

Now I am stronger, can accept that it has fallen apart and am acting accordingly. We did pretty good in R for a while, I think he tried, but we never got to restoring the intimacy and then some other deep issues came out on both sides.

Its not bravado that I hope he will read. Its just the truth that is happening to me.

Clay told me not to hide and not to emerge as an altarego, but to just be whole and not ashamed of my journey. To just be lostwifecrushed and be proud of being her.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Hardtohandle said:


> OP if he is a member here for over 2 years hasn't he read enough to understand what he is doing wrong and needs to fix ?
> 
> Or is it you need to do his heavy lifting here as well ?
> I mean really WTF gives here ?
> ...


I didnt stay because I was afraid there was no one else for me. I stayed because I love him. It took 2 years because after a few months of R, I broke my arm. He took care of me and it took almost 10 months to heal.

We fought the same fight a hundred times. Stuck in a bad pattern. When he fell back into checking out I tried for a while and then woke up to realize it just wasn't happening.

Yes, if he is truly serious, I realize it would have to be him posting, taking the heat, facing himself....

But it doesn't mean that I didn't also need to do the same.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

When will we hear from him?


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> When will we hear from him?


How about now?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I am one who thinks that the truth is very important. I think it's very stressful and exhausting to keep secrets. It's stressful and exhausting to be lied to and to have to play detective with someone you love. The lies and secrets take a huge toll and suck the comfort and closeness and love out of a marriage.

So, to LWC's H, I would say - just tell her the whole truth.

How did you cheat? What was the extent? With whom? What was on the computer? If you think you love her, are you in love with her?

Get it all out on the table and see if you have it in you to rebuild.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Cool.

This is good.

Let's take it slow.

Gang. No dog pile on the rabbit.

Do you want to start? This will be difficult. So first, thank you for being brave enough to do this.

It is a good start.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

I understand the hurt and pain I have caused my wife. I take full responsibility for what I did. It is hard to accept full responsibility for the damage I have done and to take action by talking with her, reading books and being honest and true to her for the last two years to show her I am truly sorry and show her I love her when I am constantly told I am a liar and a cheater. 

I understand the anger and the hurt and it is not her fault, but if their is an agreement to fix the marriage and I am trying to fix it then I feel I should be met half way or at the least have her acknowledge that I am trying.

I'm still here and I do withdraw and ignore her in response to 3 to 4 hour sessions two to three times a week where she will scream at me about how I have betrayed her and bring up problems from the past.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Love, the problem we are facing is you didn't come clean.

My h did a lie detector. It was mostly good. Still hurt. But he did it.

The unknowns are what kills.

I know you don't want to go there. He didn't either. But i think he wanted to put an end to it. Either I would get over it or I wouldn't.

It makes total sense.

I'm impressed. You are cool for being here.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Love, the problem we are facing is you didn't come clean.
> 
> My h did a lie detector. It was mostly good. Still hurt. But he did it.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It is important to me to repair the damage in our relationship and I am glad this site exists to help with our reconciliation.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I am one who thinks that the truth is very important. I think it's very stressful and exhausting to keep secrets. It's stressful and exhausting to be lied to and to have to play detective with someone you love. The lies and secrets take a huge toll and suck the comfort and closeness and love out of a marriage.
> 
> So, to LWC's H, I would say - just tell her the whole truth.
> 
> ...


Yes, do come clean about everything. I like all of this except for the "in love" part, which I think confuses the issue - it means different things to different people, and especially when it comes to a couple with a lot of conflict going on, that term may make them question if they "have what it takes" because they may not feel "those" feelings. (Personally, I think it refers to the biochemical reactions that happen when people first meet and "fall" in love - a sort of temporary insanity - and once that newness is over, it's over, and a different, deeper, more mature kind of love can develop; but, like I said, "in love" has different meanings to different people.)

The real healing starts after the last lie/attempt to deceive. The clock starts again when there's any attempt to cover up or hide anything - it doesn't matter what. She will be hyper vigilant, and she can't help it. That's a normal part of living with the kind of wound we have. Any attempt to deceive or hide or do something behind our backs sends us off the deep end - our anxiety goes off the charts. Something that might make someone else have a blip of concern makes us quake with out-of-proportion fear because we fear the worst, and it doesn't take much to get us that fearful. 

It's a low grade version of post traumatic stress; the only difference is that nobody died or was threatened with death or serious injury (we don't meet that one part of the official criteria list for a diagnosis of PTSD, but many of us do have the symptoms). We did experience a "death" of a kind; the foundation was pulled out from under us, the person we thought we could count on and trust the most turned out to be someone we could not, and now we feel lost and adrift and betrayed and no longer "anchored" as a married person thinks they should.

Yes, this is hard to live with. Do you think you can handle it? Do you really want to try?

If so, here are some things that help. Daily - yes, daily, or almost every day - heartfelt apologies help. You can interrupt the cycle of the buildup of anxiety and fear by anticipating it and apologizing for how much you hurt her. Also, simply ask, "is there something you need to talk about today?" Because we ALWAYS have a lot going on in our heads - to offer a chance to let off some steam before it builds up to an explosion point is another way to show empathy and to help prevent an outburst. Hand her your cell phone - so she can regularly check your log and texts and whatever she wants to see. Tell her what you are doing with all money to the penny, and be sure to consult with her before doing anything with any significant amount ("significant" is determined by agreement). Make sure she knows where you are at all times. No surprises of any kind. Think about what she would think about what you are doing, no matter what you're doing, because you would be surprised how many things married people do that impact on each other; this is one thing people in troubled marriages don't get because they've started to live like single people again.

And you may think it's not fair, but you have to try a little harder than she does. She has to try too, but you have to "do the heavy lifting" now because she's exhausted and wounded - deeply wounded - so if you think she's not putting in quite as much effort as you are, that's as it should be.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> Thank you. It is important to me to repair the damage in our relationship and I am glad this site exists to help with our reconciliation.


Hopefully this will show her that I do care and am willing to do whatever is necessary to fix our relationship and to heal the pain I have caused.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

My problem is that I don't feel I can heal up because the lying hasn't stopped. The hiding and deleting history and installing and uninstalling cameras before I get home so as not to have to "deal with me".

This hurts so much I feel like I am going to have a heart attack when it happens. I wonder whats going on, why is he still lying and hiding? This was only a few weeks ago.....so I am not sure how that is considered "fixed".

Also destroying the hard drive and then TELLING me what was on it. Saying I am bringing up the past if I say anything about how uneasy these things make me.

Being avoided EVERY DAY. Never being spoken to. When I do try to speak after days of the silent treatment I am walked away from. Told I have emotional problems and need help. Never being told I am loved. Never being anything but an annoyance.

You act like you are doing me a favor by staying with me. It doesn't feel fixed or in the past at all. It never heals up.

I'm sorry, but my heart is broken and I dont know how to fix it.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

I was wrong to use your camera without asking and trying to hide it from you.

I felt you would be angry and think I was going through your things if I had asked to use it. It was a mistake I should have waited and bought batteries for my camera instead.

I destroyed the hard drive after I thought you had gone through it. I felt bad that I had done something to hurt you and I felt that it needed to be destroyed and out of the house in order to move forward with healing the pain I had caused. I didn't think having it in the house as a constant reminder to either of us was the best thing.

I am sorry for avoiding you but when I try to speak to you I am told that I am making small talk and that you dont want to pretend that everything is ok when it's not.

I dont think I am doing you a "favor" by staying with you. I love you and I am sorry for hurting you. If you can't forgive me for the past I understand but it's not fair to either one of us to stay together if the past can not be forgiven.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I was wrong to use your camera without asking and trying to hide it from you.
> 
> I felt you would be angry and think I was going through your things if I had asked to use it. It was a mistake I should have waited and bought batteries for my camera instead.
> 
> ...


When you talk about being punished for your past you're actually speaking of the not so distant present. Maybe you should acquiesce to her current needs and put your own needs on the back burner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm on the East Coast and I'm wussying out, going to bed now. I can't say how much I will be around on the weekend. Try to be strong. Try to suck up the hard parts.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> When you talk about being punished for your past you're actually speaking of the not so distant present. Maybe you should acquiesce to her current needs and put your own needs on the back burner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree her needs are the most important and my needs should be on the backburner. But, if I am making the effort to acquiesce to her current needs and she is unwilling to offer any forgiveness or see that I am trying to fix the problems and heal the pain then how is anything going to be repaired?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

She was wronged. Not you.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> She was wronged. Not you.


You are right. I shouldn't expect anything from her. I will continue to try and fix the broken trust and heal our relationship. Hopefully I will earn her trust back and we can have a healthy, loving marriage.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think the forgiveness is not something that comes in one fell swoop. If it happens, it happens gradually, over time, as the wound heals. This can take a long time. The experts say that it takes 2-5 years for a betrayed spouse to feel (more) secure in the marriage. People here will tell you that it is an incremental development.

Your W has tried to reconcile. She committed to that. That in itself is a sign of forgiveness and love, in my opinion. I can certainly understand that it is hard to take the heat constantly, but I believe that that is what a spouse who has been unfaithful but wants to reconcile needs to do. The betrayal is traumatic; the damage has to be absorbed and treated.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> No sweetheart you have this all wrong... SHE IS STILL THERE...not you. She should have kicked you to the curb...but she didn't. SHE STAYED. You deserve everything she SCREAMS at you. Take it and then beg her to give you more.


I see you figured it out, Mrs. JA. 

Big, this is isn't my kind of thread and this will more than likely be the only post I make, but I do have one question (since you're so keen on being open and honest).....

Just what was on that hard drive that drove you to ram a screwdriver through it to destroy it? That's not the action of someone who has nothing to hide. That's the action of a man who has something quite incriminating to hide.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> 3 putt...yep...I had a good teacher..lol<<<<laughing at myself.


lol....alright, enough woman.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

BigandTallSection said:


> I agree her needs are the most important and my needs should be on the backburner. But, if I am making the effort to acquiesce to her current needs and she is unwilling to offer any forgiveness or see that I am trying to fix the problems and heal the pain then how is anything going to be repaired?







I have followed her recent posts, and have done my best to hear what she has been feeling, and what her experience has been lately.



I'm glad you are here now, and hope you will share what has been going on with you, and your view of what you two are facing.



I hear you saying her needs are important, and that you have been making an effort to "acquiesce" to them. What are get needs as you see them? Your word choice interests me...im wondering if her needs feel like denands to you. (Not criticising you if that's the case. The post from yourr old thread when you mentioned bills and candlelight dinners left me wondering if you feel as if there ate demands you cannot possibly satisfy.)



If you read her recent posts, what is it that she has needed from you the most?



Can you give us and her some sense of the things you've been trying to do to fix things and heal the pain?



I can relate to the notion that redemption has to be part of the plan, and it can be pretty depressing -- paralyzingly so -- if all possible roads to redemption seem forever closed.



I went back and read your thread from long ago. I read despair in your words, and i felt perhaps you are a good person, just stuck in a situation with dynamics you have yet figured out or found the courage to fix. (Yes, he had an active part in creating that situation, and frustrating those dynamics, but that's not where I think opportunity lies at the moment). If your heart and motivations are in the right place, I'd be happy, for you and those who care about you, if you reached out and got the support you needed to fix what is your responsibility and learn to live in ways that don't put your life and those around you in a downward spiral. But, honestly, I don't have a clear sense of what your motivations truly are. I dont know if I can trust you to be honest with others, and especially yourself. You do, at the moment, have a credibility problem. I wish there was a way for you to put it all out on the table, authentically, and for us to see its authenticity. This is a hard problem to solve.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Some thoughts on forgiveness from Shirley Glass's book, NOT Just Friends:

_The reason we discuss forgiveness in the next to last chapter is because forgiveness is at the end of a long journey of healed wounds. 

Forgiving is not a single event, but a gradual process of increasing compassion and reducing resentment.

...premature or inappropriate forgiveness can give a false sense of healing that is out of sync with your underlying emotions. Forgiving too soon can lower your feelings of self-worth....

It is time to forgive when shattered assumptions have been reconstructed in a meaningful way. There should be no additional surprises or shoes dropping after forgiveness: the full extent of betrayal and all of the significant details are known. Forgiveness is appropriate when there is evidence of intent to change; for example, when troubled partners are working in therapy or a support group on their individual problems....

You cannot move on and you cannot forgive if you are not safe. If the threat of reinjury is real and imminent, the imperiled partner has no choice but to stay on the defensive and remain alert to any hint of attack....If the current affair is over but there's no reasonable assurance against future infidelity, staying stuck in unmitigated suffering protects the betrayed partner from the devastation of being unprepared for the next act of treachery.

Forgiveness by the betrayed partner may not be possible if the deception went on too long and the unfaithful partner shows no compassion.

In couples who heal together, forgiveness is built on the sincere remorse of the unfaithful partner. It involves both of you. Over time, you have made good on your intention to reconcile and have demonstrated (through specific acts of relationship building) a commitment to each other._


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## srhgsfjd (Feb 1, 2014)

I feel like this is just part of the cycle we go through.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I guess I am just lost because in all of the problems we have, all of my issues come out. I have to put my issues on the table but he never does. I try to not get too emotional but its hard. I know I have a problems with emotional flooding and we do get into it a couple times a week. But this is because it is the ONLY time we talk and I am so frustrated with not being spoken to and told the reason this is happening is because I am so unreasonable and impossible.

It is getting impossible. I am criticized for everything. I am always told, "look at how you are acting!" When I am crying and at the end of my rope. I am at the end of my rope because it has been DAYS since we spoke.

This whole new cycle started when I found out he was trying to get pictures out of one of my old cameras. He installed it and then uninstalled it, deleting the history.

First of all, if we are in supposed to be in R for deleting and hiding cam sessions on live sex sites.....this should not be happening. I know it was probably innocent, but the problem is, I am still just being lied to. The rationale seems to be --- this will upset her.....so I will just lie to her face about it so I won't have to get b!tched out.

This is one of many examples of trying to circumvent "having to deal with me". He is honest about doing this. These are the words he uses. 

So the argument gets worse and starts going in circles. 

"I only did it because I didn't want to fight about it"

"I know, thats why I am upset!"

"I am sorry, I shouldn't have done it, in the future I will ask first"

"I dont care if you use the camera, you dont have to ask, I care that you chose to lie to me about it, such a small thing"

"I only did it because I didn't want to fight about it"

and round and round we go.

If I dont let it go at this I will be told.

"I said I was wrong, I said I was sorry, I'm sorry"

"But why does this stuff keep happening?"

"I only did it because I didn't want to fight about it"

"I know, thats why I am upset!"

And it goes on like this until the next "mistake". 

This was only a few weeks ago and its no big deal, I know, but its the principal of the thing.

I am tired of being told I need to let go of the past when the mistakes I've made in the past are brought up to justify doing nothing in the present.

Like MC. I have been told that MC would be a waste of time and money because I walked out of a counselling session we were in over 15 years ago, BEFORE WE WERE MARRIED. He says after I walked out the counselor told him, "Are you sure you want to deal with this?" Meaning that he was basically a saint for putting up with me.

He said this to me a few DAYS ago. This is the reason he gives not to go to a therapist. Every time I bring up MC he reminds me of this incident. 

I really need help for these problems.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

But he is willing to go to MC now, correct?

My h does the same stuff, LWC. We can never discussed one thing without him bringing up 15000 other things. and by doing a bunch of tit for tat arguing.

if by the grace of God you can get your husband to agree to discuss a single subject and not bring up other things but simply discuss the fact of that subject perhaps you'll have a prayer. 

big and tall can you agree do that? no blame shifting no pointing fingers and saying oh yeah but you...

a single subject, discuss only the facts and set a timer and don't discuss it anymore than say 45 minutes 

and unfortunately for you the first subject needs to be for you to be completely honest about it was on that hard drive . or more like it what you feared might be on that hard drive 

my husband finally took a lie detector test because he lied so often over the course of our relationship that anything he had to say was suspect 

would you be willing to do such a thing ?

and just a caution even if you do take a test and you passed with flying colors the damage done by lying over time doesn't go away just because you finally fessed up . it doesn't cure the past but it helps to provide a new baseline something that she can remind herself happened at witnessed herself . but the distrust is going to remain . at that point it's up to her to address that this trust however you taking a lie detector test and passing it doesn't give you the right to start lying again, saying "see I told you everything but you still don't trust me". because one lie set clock back to zero . and since you aren't allowed an unlimited number of questions there's always going to be something that she will regret not having asked.

in my case I kick myself for not asking a question and at that point he finally turned to me and told me the truth after years of maintaining his innocence about that question .

I mean how stupid can a man be? 

you don't have to answer that question unless you do know the answer in which case I'd love to know the answer to that question ! 

;-)


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

You know there are moments of insight and lucidity from him that are truly heartbreaking, like this letter I got from him just yesterday:

------------------------

"If you think I'm screwed up, need help and have emotional problems then why would you ignore me and make things worse for me"? 

That made alot of sense to me.

I think we both fall into our patterns of fighting whenever there is a problem in our relationship.

I think when you were young you probably felt like you had no control over things and that your feelings weren't heard and so you flood and say the same things over and over and wont stop because you want to be heard and cared about.

I do hear what you say and I do care about you and how you feel.

My pattern is to avoid conflict and to ignore and retreat within myself. 

When my mom would yell at me and tell me that I think I'm King Sh!t (and yes that is what she would call me) and not listen to anything I had to say or try and see my side of things, I would retreat to my room, play guitar, think and wait it out until things would cool down. 

I dont blame you for feeling the way you feel. I do want and try to make things better. 

I love you.

-------------

I felt so bad to read this because in our bad fights, I have probably called him something very similar when he was acting superior and I was being pathologized.

I know he has thought deeply about our issues, and I feel supported in everything except the issue that is breaking us up. The one that always gets avoided. The one that is causing all the damage.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Avoidant men are very difficult to deal with. They really do return to their childhood. We pay for their unresolved mommy issues.

They feel shame. They lie. We get upset and want the truth. They lie and then avoid.

I don't know how to fix that. My h is in therapy and he has only addressed anger. All it has done is shut him down more, IMO.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, I think he replays how he felt with his Mom with me. As I am sure I have replayed how I felt with my Dad with him. I think everyone reverts back to whatever their family of origin did at times of high stress.

I think its really sad that he spent so much time in his room growing up. He was obsessive about practice (and everything else). His obsessive nature is what makes him so much better than others on his instrument. If a certain piece was difficult to play, his friends would say oh theres no way you could ever play THAT. And he would stay in his room mastering that piece untill it was done.

Then he would say, "remember that song you said was impossible to play?" 

Its sad that his parents didnt even hear him play until he was a teenager because he couldn't make noise in his room. They had no idea how much talent he had.

I came home late last night after being at my Moms all day, and what was he doing? Playing guitar alone in his "room" with the door closed. 

Trust me, I would love to let all this go just work on music all day. We just finished a huge amount of arrangements. It is some of the best work either one of us has done. I spent countless hours recording and arranging for this project. 

Its maddening to be told to forgive the past when this giant effort we made on this music project got derailed because HE could not forgive a phone call that happened 10 years ago before we were married. I had to deal with HIS yelling and HIS emotional flooding all night because he wouldn't let go of the past.

Its just he wants me to let go of the "past" in relation to HIM, while he still holds grudges against me for things that happened before we were even married. 

Its crazymaking.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Let's see what your hubs has to say today. It is hard for both of you to let go. You are both unwilling. You just did a tit-for-tat.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Question - he wasn't yelling last night, right? You are recalling an old event?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Question - he wasn't yelling last night, right? You are recalling an old event?


An event from 2 months ago.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Let's see what your hubs has to say today. It is hard for both of you to let go. You are both unwilling. You just did a tit-for-tat.


how did i do a tit for tat?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

By saying he wants me to... But look at what he has done...

Your behaviour is up to you. What he does or doesn't do will impact your motivation but if you ultimately do what is right, it will not impact your bottom line.

Behave in a way you are proud of. 

He should do the same.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> By saying he wants me to... But look at what he has done...
> 
> Your behaviour is up to you. What he does or doesn't do will impact your motivation but if you ultimately do what is right, it will not impact your bottom line.
> 
> ...


OK


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I dont know. I just feel bad.

Every day I get up and try to solve these problems. I guess its the wrong thing to do.

I do that because the problems are so bad they affect my ability to have a good day or focus on the future.

He is upset because I asked if he was going to keep posting or if it was just a one time thing.

This is the most important thing in my life right now, fixing this marriage or separating. Thats why I am on here every day.

He said, focusing on problems every day is just going to give us a problem filled life.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I will pray for you, I don't know what to say, else than that I admire you, and hope he dares to open up and acknowledge the situation here.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am going to take one more shot at trying to express myself and what I think about what is going on in our marriage. I have thought for a long time about why I am stuck and written to the best of my ability where I am at now.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

The problem for me is this same issue....Its what broke us up before. For almost 3 years. I can never reference these incidents because I am told I am only pointing out every mistake he has ever made. NO I AM POINTING OUT A PATTERN THAT IS GETTING WORSE NOT BETTER

I thought we had both grown up a lot, and we had. This time, when the hard drive came up gone, I was completely crushed. I had seen that it had been going on for several months before my discovery. He had even gone so far as to go to these sites and mute the cam while I was sleeping in the other room.

He says it was only for a few months and he was going to quit right when I found out. From what I saw, there is no way someone can get to that level without ramping up first. And I am not even talking about all the misogynistic porn that I found as well, I am talking about real live cam sex sites with chat and everyone is on there having orgasms together...then he destroyed the hard drive.

Meanwhile, I have a completely sexless marriage.


I thought these problems were over and done with, but they rear their head YEARS later and I am just supposed to get over it and stop "causing problems"?

These problems are not just me getting mad about "porn". Its how destructive they have been to me. And every time it has been personal and affected me more than just having my feelings hurt.

The first time I almost lost my university network account over it. He tried to tell me it was my paranoia from being sexually abused that made me think this was going on. Till I showed him proof, then he said he was sorry. This was in 1998. It didnt just hurt my feelings, it affected my school life. (He didn't destroy my computer over it.)

Then the big blow up, when he lied to me about getting pulled over and having his car towed as to why he was gone all night, I left for work and his car was parked down the street! with personal ads CIRCLED in the paper! Again, not porn, but I found a lot of porn with it, porn he had made himself with the face of a woman we both know superimposed. This was 1999. He used my computer to make this fantasy world of his, but again, he didnt destroy the hard drive over it.

That is just a LITTLE of what led up to our big break up.

These are the kinds of things we had to talk through and I had to forgive for us to get back together. We worked hard to get through our issues and in 2003, when we were finally moving back in together, within a week I found adult friend finder matches in his email box! (I feel the need to say here that he didn't destroy his computer over it)

He convinced me that these were left over from "being single" and he was very open and honest about it. Not like it is now. We talked about it. Years later he made a vague reference to being "very bad" to me during that time. He never explained what that meant. But we TALKED, he cared, he explained, he knew there were many reasons and so did I. We both had problems with substance abuse up to this time. We conquered that demon together and that life is far far in the past, I thought these were all related and they really were. 

Throughout our early marriage we had lots of problems, but none of them were sex related. Our sex life is one of the only things that WASNT having problems. I have had a very difficult time with my own sexuality being a survivor of sexual abuse at a very young age. I have been in and out of therapy for years for it. 

The sexual relationship with my husband was the one cornerstone of our marriage besides having music in common. We were very well matched and in this area we had few, if any problems. We had a fulfilling and *sacred* sexual union for many years. We helped each other heal and work through early family problems we had growing up. We conquered those problems together.

I felt free to be myself with him, We had no hangups or problems during this time. Our sexual experience ran the gamut of playful to profound. I didn't even know this kind of intimate relationship was possible. I felt healed as a woman. I felt my fathers abuse was no longer affecting me. I felt that I had finally left that trauma behind, and was finally free of it. I felt loved like I had finally found the one I was meant to be with.

Yes, we had other problems, but we made love and it was healing and restorative, we fell asleep together and woke up together. We were physically and emotionally close. Bonded. For years.

Then something went wrong. He started being a little mean, the a lot mean, during the act. Wanting me to do and say things that made me feel very uncomfortable. I told him this but it kept on. It got to the point where I would leave our bed in tears.

I assumed in my heart of hearts that he was into porn again. I let it go when he had major surgery and his health was really in decline. I took care of him. I wanted him to heal up and get better and our sex life didnt matter anymore because he couldnt do anything while he was on disability and recovering anyway. And his life, his ability to play music was on the line, we thought he had MS. There were months of tests and anxiety. I didn't want to lose him to some unknown degenerate disease. He had spinal surgery and had residual nerve damage. He was on the couch for months on heavy pain meds. I did everyhting for him to help him heal up and get stronger.

Then upon discovery that he had resumed his sex life, just not with ME, (2 years ago) I was completely broken. Again, it is affecting me more than just having my feelings hurt. He destroyed my computer over it, my family pictures, our tax information, our financial records, etc, just destroyed....over "porn"? Thats never happened before. So I got scared and he withdrew.

I felt like our marriage was over. All the work we had done had been for nothing. My husband, who is the only man I have ever been able to have a healthy sex life with, was gone, more interested in his online harem than restoring anything with me. I lost faith in our marriage. Our vows were broken.

I dont know what happened to us. 

If we had truly worked through these issues and he understood how much it hurt me in the past....Why would he do it to me again? Even worse this time.

When I asked him this he said

I DIDNT THINK YOU WOULD FIND OUT

I cant move on because our marriage is still broken. There has been no reconciliation. We made progress for a while in R until the sex part. I just start crying or turn away from him when he tries to be close to me in this way.

I am stuck.

I dont know what happened to us.

Every day that I stay and he is distant and irritable I am reminded of the broken-ness.

Thats it, thats everything.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> I have followed her recent posts, and have done my best to hear what she has been feeling, and what her experience has been lately.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you sky for this post. This is what I feel needs to happen also. Thank you for your perspective and thoughtfulness.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thorburn said:


> The Healing Library
> What the WS/BS Must Do to Reconcile
> 
> JUST GET OVER IT ALREADY!
> ...


Thank you thor for this post. Thank you for the counselling you give every day to try to help those whose marriages are in trouble. Some people have nowhere to turn and no tools or resources to understand and solve the problems they are facing.

You and those like you, being on this board and helping others, for free, consistently, are priceless to those who are lost.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

You are dealing with a combination of trauma and grief. With both of those, you are going to have thoughts about what has caused you this pain EVERY DAY until you have begun to heal in a significant way. Ideally, your unfaithful spouse will be willing and eager and proactive in helping you with that process - but your healing can proceed without him.

If asking him a question about anything related to your marital issues results in a negatively reinforcing response, such as "focusing on problems every day is just going to give us a problem filled life," that suggests that he is dodging the hard stuff. (We warned him this wouldn't be easy.) 

It's one thing to need a break, and to say so - "honey, since you made TAM a condition of R, I will definitely get back on but today I need to take a day off; I'll post again tomorrow" or something like that. Such a reply would show a commitment to returning to TAM, plus a specific plan for when. Because he knows it's important to you, and it was a condition of your continuing to work on this marriage, and because he won't just leave you wondering when he'll get to work on this - out of respect for your feelings and out of respect for the marriage. IF it was truly that important to him, he'd prioritize it. But that response didn't sound like he was prioritizing you OR your marriage. 

EVERY DAY he should be apologizing to you and asking you how he can help you heal - you already made it clear that posting here was one of those things you wanted him to do. His response to your asking him to post today was not indicative of "willing and eager and proactive." Or did he suggest some alternative to posting here that would be helpful to your healing? It would have to be an option that you've already stated is something you want; YOU are the one who gets to say what you will or will not accept as therapeutic for YOU, not him.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> You are dealing with a combination of trauma and grief. With both of those, you are going to have thoughts about what has caused you this pain EVERY DAY until you have begun to heal in a significant way. Ideally, your unfaithful spouse will be willing and eager and proactive in helping you with that process - but your healing can proceed without him.
> 
> If asking him a question about anything related to your marital issues results in a negatively reinforcing response, such as "focusing on problems every day is just going to give us a problem filled life," that suggests that he is dodging the hard stuff. (We warned him this wouldn't be easy.)
> 
> ...


He did say that about not wanting to focus on problems and then got irritated.... But then later, he also made an effort to say he would look at the posts since yesterday and maybe start his own thread.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He did say that about not wanting to focus on problems and then got irritated.... But then later, he also made an effort to say he would look at the posts since yesterday and maybe start his own thread.


I'm still waiting to hear what he has to say about driving a screwdriver though the hard drive to destroy what is obviously incriminating evidence.

There's no point in him starting his own thread when he can't answer even one simple question honestly. He thinks he's Mister Shuck and Jive, but he's just one of many more like him to us....a statistic.

This place scares the sh!t out of you, doesn't it B&T?

True accountability and honesty is a b!tch when you haven't been held to it at any point in your marital life, is it?

So sorry for you, LWC.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

3putt said:


> I'm still waiting to hear what he has to say about driving a screwdriver though the hard drive to destroy what is obviously incriminating evidence.
> 
> There's no point in him starting his own thread when he can't answer even one simple question honestly. He thinks he's Mister Shuck and Jive, but he's just one of many more like him to us....a statistic.
> 
> ...


To be fair, 3putt, i am not even sure he saw your post....he got angry at the red letter post from mrs ja.... so i dont think it was intentional.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> To be fair, 3putt, i am not even sure he saw your post....he got angry at the red letter post from mrs ja.... so i dont think it was intentional.


To also be fair to you more than him, you just made my point. 

He gets angry at everything that holds him accountable for his actions. He resides in a world of do what I want and deny.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

In case this might be helpful to you, this is how it goes when it works.

I have been triggering a lot lately in the lead up to the one year anniversary of D-Day. Had to go over some painful things, and it has involved repeating some questions. My WS finds it uncomfortable, but it's nothing compared to the pain I feel, so he goes there with me. And he has been apologizing a lot, as well as asking me - out of the blue - "how are you coping today?" because he knows these days are difficult.

We're both healing: he doesn't much like the person he had become during his affair. He's ashamed of himself, of his behavior then. We look back on that person, at that time, as if we're looking at it together, as a team - I ask gently, and we hold hands. It's not always easy, but we get through it. And I feel so much better afterward. I HAVE to get this stuff out. I NEED to be heard, and I need him to be WITH me, on my side, helping and supporting me, not opposing or resisting me.

Shirley Glass in NOT Just Friends stresses how important the empathic process is for healing. She asks if the wayward can "feel what the betrayed spouse is going through and understand the humiliation, the anger, and the need to go over and over what has happened in the past?" I couldn't imagine us getting through these last few weeks if my husband hadn't worked at building up his "empathy" muscles.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I would have preferred we gave him more time to work up his courage.

But if he isn't likely to, I'm afraid the idea of reconciliation is never going to work.

It has to happen - complete honesty and the chips fall where they fall. The alternative is continuing this death march. Neither of you want that.

Recap:

That bit of past isn't going away.

That is a fact.

So what's it going to be? Big, can you set up MC and share the truth with your wife?

If you can't, are you willing to give her the freedom she requires? 

I'm sorry you have painted yourself into this corner. It has to suck.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

3putt said:


> To also be fair to you more than him, you just made my point.
> 
> He gets angry at everything that holds him accountable for his actions. He resides in a world of do what I want and deny.


I'm not angry and I have no problem accepting full responsibility for the damage I have caused my marriage and the hurt I have caused my wife. 

I am thankful for the postings on this site that are intended to help us mend our broken marriage.

I went to porn sites and watched porn videos while my wife slept. I had major surgery and was feeling sorry for myself. I have always been stronger and achieved things that others could not. I had myself a pity party and felt sorry for myself thinking that the love of my life would see me and the sacred union we shared as diminished and not as strong as it once was. I was weak and I made a mistake. 

I did not chat or hook up with anyone else. The three years without her were the worst. No one compared and I could not be intimate with anyone else.

I stuck a screwdriver in the hard drive and threw it out of the house because I was ashamed and realized I needed to stop once and for all and realize that my wife loved me no matter what level I was at. 

I'm not afraid of any question. This is important to me. I'm not mr. Shuck and Jive. I'm not perfect but I am willing to do whatever it takes to make things better.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> Some thoughts on forgiveness from Shirley Glass's book, NOT Just Friends:
> 
> _The reason we discuss forgiveness in the next to last chapter is because forgiveness is at the end of a long journey of healed wounds.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this. It helped me to see what she is going through. I have withdrawn so many times because I feel I am doing what I need to do to make things better. I didn't realize that maybe she does see the effort but is lashing out only because she is afraid it will happen again.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> Hopefully this will show her that I do care and am willing to do whatever is necessary to fix our relationship and to heal the pain I have caused.


I am glad you have a positive impulse to fix things and try to heal her, and yourself.

But realizing how deep you have gone on the dark side will be hard on you. Maybe I should try to side with you, you will need some support.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

R is a very hard road and many fail. The triggering and uncertainty often last for years. Sometimes many years. We all heal differently. Some can eventually heal within the marriage and some have to leave it in order to heal. But it's not a quick and easy process for the majority of us. We all wish it were. R is a lot of work and not for everyone. Time will tell whether it's right for you. If you both want it, I hope it will be. But never forget it takes work.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I'm not angry and I have no problem accepting full responsibility for the damage I have caused my marriage and the hurt I have caused my wife.
> 
> I am thankful for the postings on this site that are intended to help us mend our broken marriage.
> 
> ...


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

LCW.

I too have been dealing w a no intimate marriage for almost 3 years. I've been asking many of the same questions you seem to be asking yourself too after what you feel your h has done to you and your relationship.

My h wanted to get through it all as soon as he could. He had very little remorse, because he really believed deep down he only made a mistake, played the victim, "oh whoa is me", as well as lies... 

Until just a few days ago, when he finished reading a book, "How to help your Spouse get over your affair" that Hopefulgirl highly ((thx u)) recommend. It hit him! But now, what am I suppose to do with it? Finally, after all this time???? It's like it added more to his crime! or as he likes to call it his, "mistake."

But, like you, my reality has changed, and I too love my h so very much. We are separated also, but come in and out of each others lives, and will be honest with you, I do miss him a lot. And, even thou it's only been a few days, I really do see the sincere remorse, but,... it may just be, I can't heal together. 

R is the hardest thing that 2 people in a broken marriage can face. It's not for the faint at heart. I've been married to the man I love for 30 yrs. and I really dont know if we"ll make it. 

My shared experience. 

-sammy


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

sammy3 said:


> LCW.
> 
> I too have been dealing w a no intimate marriage for almost 3 years. I've been asking many of the same questions you seem to be asking yourself too after what you feel your h has done to you and your relationship.
> 
> ...


Thanks sammy I am sorry you are going through this. It is very hard because you love and miss the life you thought you were going to have forever.....and your husband. Its really heartbreaking....I hope you take care of yourself and dont be too hard on yourself or your H...

You just get to a point where you think you need to be on your own for a while...its PAINFUL to be in a broken marriage. Your once great marriage is reduced to being grateful you got through the day without crying or arguing. 

I hope you get to where you want to be. I hope we all do. No one should have to endure this kind of pain.

Please take care of yourself.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Big, will you take a lie detector test?


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

BigandTallSection said:


> Thanks for posting this. It helped me to see what she is going through. I have withdrawn so many times because I feel I am doing what I need to do to make things better. I didn't realize that maybe she does see the effort but is lashing out only because she is afraid it will happen again.


B&T, you've got to do your best to hang in there and not withdraw, disconnect, or avoid. She really needs you now, and if you cannot be there for her, your relationship won't survive.

"I am doing what I need to do to make things better" - this is your perception. You may be trying, yes, but her perception differs from yours. What matters the most in this situation is how SHE feels, what her perception is. She obviously feels you are not doing what she needs you to do to make things better and to help her heal. And sometimes even if it's good, you may not immediately see the results in her that you hope for, and you are just going to have to hang in there. She cannot turn on a dime here, she is still grappling with pain, trauma, betrayal, distrust, fear, etc. Which is still being aggravated on a regular basis as you continue doing things she has already clearly stated are damaging and unacceptable.

She is giving you big clues about where you're going wrong. She has said that you are minimizing the infidelity by calling it porn when there were live video chats. She is not imagining that there were live video chats, and she (and a lot of people) define live video chats of a sexual nature with another person as infidelity. You may not feel that's the case, but what matters is that SHE does. So you can call it porn all day long until you're blue in the face, but every time you do that, you are aggravating the injury you have caused her. And putting one more nail into the coffin. Where is the good in that? 

Do you really want to keep hurting her even more? Or do you want to be part of her healing? You must take responsibility for your own damage and get into therapy, both IC and MC, to turn this around. You are responsible for yourself and the damage you do. Not your mother or anyone else. You have to own that and do something about it. LWC is telling you what she needs from you. You can either keep making excuses about why you can't do it, or you can decide you will meet her needs and take whatever action is necessary to get there.

Relationships are hard. Especially hard for some of us, including me! It's always easier to stand outside of someone else's relationship and point things out.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LWC and B&T, have you ever thought of trying Imago therapy?

IMAGO > About Imago Therapy > What is Imago

IMAGO > Find A Therapist


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> LWC and B&T, have you ever thought of trying Imago therapy?
> 
> IMAGO > About Imago Therapy > What is Imago
> 
> IMAGO > Find A Therapist


Thanks for the links. Looks like something that would be helpful.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Always remember this was a gift she gave you. You are not worthy, but can be.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> LWC and B&T, have you ever thought of trying Imago therapy?
> 
> IMAGO > About Imago Therapy > What is Imago
> 
> IMAGO > Find A Therapist


Also, maybe having quiet time at the end of day...and putting on music for healing, this one is good, it is one hour:

RELAXATION MUSIC FOR STRESS RELIEF AND HEALING 

RELAXATION MUSIC FOR STRESS RELIEF AND HEALING MEDITATION - YouTube


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

My words are harsh but there is a ray of sunshine at the end. 

Do you know how many WS ever tell the WHOLE TRUTH, 100% to BS when they are in R? 
At a guess I would say 1 in 100, maybe even fewer. 

I am talking below about WS *who are in R *but who are still telling lies, big or small, either openly or by non-disclosure, who are sanitising, putting a different light on it than what really happened etc.

They tell themselves they will hurt BS more. But they can't hurt BS any more because the biggest wound of all is having been LIED to by the person you trusted most in the world. Ask any BS, or any psychologist for that matter. By continuing to lie they ARE hurting BS more. Lies on top of the original lies are the worst. 

They tell themselves the BS will leave if they tell the whole truth. So? BS might well do. But BS deserve to be allowed to make an FULLY INFORMED decision on whether to R and give WS more of their precious time. Continuing to lie is playing with someone else's life in the cruellest possible way. 

The reason WS give themselves all these reasons to avoid telling the truth is to protect THEMSELVES. Nothing more, nothing less. 

They are protecting THEMSELVES because they do not want to endure the pain of looking at themselves naked and bare, deep into their soul and admit how horribly they behaved. It 'hurts' too much. If only they knew that the pain of doing that is far less than the pain they have caused BS. 

They further protect THEMSELVES because after being discovered they have decided (after trying someone else out!) that THEY want to stay with BS. If they tell BS the FULL truth there is a risk that BS might leave. 

They also protect THEMSELVES from the humiliation that they will likely experience on telling BS the WHOLE truth. What they seem to forget is the humiliation they put BS through when they discovered their spouse was lying to them. The humiliation of being betrayed is very underrated. 

It's great that you are here B&T. You clearly want this to work.
*So do it right and do it quick. Don't drag this out any more.*
Rip that BandAid off. Remember as a kid you would try and pull the Bandaid off ever so slowly? Then your Mum would come along and rip it off in an instant? It's the only way to do it. 

Make a cup of coffee for you and your lady, sit her down and ask her NOT to interrupt you. Take a deep breath and tell her EVERYTHING, absolutely EVERYTHING. I mean EVERYTHING. Do not sanitise it by calling it porn when it was live video chat. What about the hard drive? You get my drift. Promise her that you will NEVER lie to her again. If she has questions afterwards, answer them truthfully. 

How will she react? I don't know. 
Will she leave you when you tell her everything? I don't know. 
*All I know having been a BS myself is that by telling her the WHOLE truth, you will be doing your wife the biggest favour you have done her in a long long time. She truly deserves it. *
Further, she will know when she has finally got the truth. 
We always do. 

After she hears everything, if she decides to stay in R I think you guys will be just fine. Then you should spoil yourselves and take a little holiday in sunny California or someplace nice and remember what brought you together in the first place long ago. 
*B&T- Be the 1 in 100. *​


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

If he reads these forums like you say, then these messages seem like nothing more than empty words and threats. 

If you want to show him you are serious, get out. If you want to work on R, do it on your terms, as you live apart from him. The threat of leaving doesn't change by telling him in different places, whether it be emails, in person, or a public forum. It feels like you are desperate to let him know you are really, really, REALLY leaving this time, yet you are not leaving at all. The threat of leaving is taken serious after you have left. He will never have his "breakthrough" until you are gone. And after you are gone, you may realize how better life is without him.... his biggest fear. He will either truly R or you won't want him to R with anyway. 

Empty threats, leave now.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Thanks all you guys for trying to help us. I really really appreciate those who have tried to help me maintain the integrity of my vows. I kept trying because I am losing my family. I kept trying because I wanted my marriage to survive, I wanted us to make it. I fought for him because I loved him, I could see he was being very self destructive and I was concerned. For both of us.

Now, there are no empty threats, just a giant pause....

Because if I leave this house there is no coming back to it. In order to leave, I have to sell things HE IS USING DAILY, which would just cause more damage, more chaos and more notbeingthereforeachother anymore.

Also, I've already gone through this. When we were living together before we were married. We went through a similar thing, but this time is way way worse. I have already had to leave and rebuild my life without him. We were out of each others lives. For years.

And when he did come back into my life, he had to work that stuff out and do some major heavy lifting to create a new relationship and overcome the past.

He did all this and more.

Now its happening again. And I dont think there will be any coming back for a 3rd time.

I will have to destroy the life we have now in order to rebuild a makeshift, temporary existence. This really makes me mad because I think he should work out a separation with me where I have an equitable split and a chance to make it. But he wont. 

He keeps saying he wants to work on it.

Well, last night after seeing his one sentence reply to all the thoughtful posts that were made since yesterday....that was disheartening. That level of involvement isn't going to do it. 

But I know he wasn't feeling good, so I posted the healing meditation because I though maybe it would help him feel better the way it helps me feel better.

I said I would give it a month....but a month of non-involvement/ very minimal response is not what I thought he meant. 

I should be planning the 10th wedding anniversary party he always said we should have, my other dd is coming home for my birthday in april, she is away in school and has been gone for 3 years! I dont want her to find me on someones couch crying. I wanted us all to have a big family dinner together, not be divorced.

But I guess this is what happens with infidelity. It destroys the whole family, not just the relationship. Everyone's experience is forever changed. Even the kids who are grown and away in school, who have moved on to lives of their own.

I just want a chance to have a daily life where I don't feel bad. Where I can work on something positive and creative. Where I can play the piano again. And heal up.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm really surprised you ever went back to him in the first place. 

Plan your exit.

Hope he surprises you.

But follow through if he doesn't.

And a Hail Mary doesn't count. Steady progress counts. Hail Marys are delay tactics.

You can speed this up by scheduling a lie detector test and making it a requirement.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Coldie said:


> If he reads these forums like you say, then these messages seem like nothing more than empty words and threats.
> 
> *If you want to show him you are serious, get out.* If you want to work on R, do it on your terms, as you live apart from him. The threat of leaving doesn't change by telling him in different places, whether it be emails, in person, or a public forum. It feels like you are desperate to let him know you are really, really, REALLY leaving this time, yet you are not leaving at all. The threat of leaving is taken serious after you have left. He will never have his "breakthrough" until you are gone. And after you are gone, you may realize how better life is without him.... his biggest fear. He will either truly R or you won't want him to R with anyway.
> 
> Empty threats, leave now.


The problem is I do not want to show him I am serious by getting out. I am showing him I am serious by staying.

Once I get out there is no more coming back to this house.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LWC - with as much pain and heartache you post on this forum, I just can't believe your WH "doesn't get it".

He gets it. He sees your pain. He just doesn't care. If he cared he would be honest, not downplay the live sex cams as "porn only" and have already found an IC at bare minimum to help with his issues. He wouldn't get mad at the advice here and really be trying to work with you on this.

I see you putting so much more effort into trying to repair the marriage than him. You are desperate. He is not. That is not how a remorseful WS should be acting!!


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You are not showing him you are serious about requiring a change by not making the change yourself since he will nor do it.

The idea that there is no going back is untrue. You are placing that restriction.

You keep yourself stuck.

We (you and the folks on TAM) are going in circles. You know how that feels. Difference is, I will walk away. 

Understand? I am not stuck. Neither are you. You might not be willing to unstick yourself, but that is a choice to remain in this u.satisfactory place.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> The idea that there is no going back is untrue. You are placing that restriction.


Yes I am. Because it is true for me. There will be no point in coming back to an empty house and a p!ssed off H.

What would be the point of that?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

So he is going to p!ssed off if you leave? What kind of remorse is that??!!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> So he is going to p!ssed off if you leave? What kind of remorse is that??!!


I know vibride, I know what everyone is saying. I understand. I was just trying to come here for one month to try and talk it out with support and help to get the issues out and stop the bleeding, stop the damage, just stop it all from dying. 

The silence and fights had been going on for weeks.

I am doing the best I can.

I am lost.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yes I am. Because it is true for me. There will be no point in coming back to an empty house and a p!ssed off H.
> 
> What would be the point of that?


Him changing.

"If I leave I am never coming back" is as meaningless as "I am really leaving this time." 

Leave. Stop finding reasons that if you leave it's really over, yet continue to give him a hundred threats of leaving. Do you want change? Those threats will never work, and if they do, they won't last. Doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results mean what? Get out. You deserve better.


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## BradWesley (May 24, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I know vibride, I know what everyone is saying. I understand. I was just trying to come here for one month to try and talk it out with support and help to get the issues out and stop the bleeding, stop the damage, just stop it all from dying.
> 
> The silence and fights had been going on for weeks.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, your marriage has been on life support for some time now.

Best bet is to pull the plug, file for divorce and move on with your life.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

They are not threats.

It is just the truth of how I feel.

It is what is happening to me.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Everyone is telling me to leave. When my H is here, trying to talk about reconciliation with me. I should give up now?


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Do what you feel is right. In the end that is the only thing that matters. 

Clay


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Coldie said:


> Him changing.
> 
> "If I leave I am never coming back" is as meaningless as "I am really leaving this time."
> 
> Leave. Stop finding reasons that if you leave it's really over, yet continue to give him a hundred threats of leaving. Do you want change? Those threats will never work, and if they do, they won't last. Doing the same thing over and over and getting the same results mean what? Get out. You deserve better.


I guess I dont understand what you mean by threats. Its just how I feel . I have tried to work out a separation with him, but he wont do it. He says he will and then says he wants to work on it when the time comes to get the paperwork together.

I just need this to change. I am sorry if I am not doing this right. Thats why I am here, for advice. For help. This is hard to do.

Its my whole life.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Everyone is telling me to leave. When my H is here, trying to talk about reconciliation with me. I should give up now?


If by here you mean TAM, I'm not seeing much effort. If by here you mean there with you, are you actually getting talk of reconciliation? Has he opened up the finances to you so you not only have access to the marital money but access to the history? Has he gone transparent on his communications? Is he at least being pleasant to you and engaging in conversation?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> If by here you mean TAM, I'm not seeing much effort. If by here you mean there with you, are you actually getting talk of reconciliation? Has he opened up the finances to you so you not only have access to the marital money but access to the history? Has he gone transparent on his communications? Is he at least being pleasant to you and engaging in conversation?


Yes. All these things. No more silent treatment. No more bad attitude. Talking to each other again. Making food together. 

Just not much opening up or responding on the boards. Which we said we would do, every night, for a month.

I said I opened up about what was going on with me, had to hear a lot about what I was doing wrong, had to face things about myself that contribute to the problems.

He said he would do the same, even though it was uncomfortable, he said he would.

For one month. In addition to making things better around here for both of us on a daily basis. Which he has done.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yes. All these things. No more silent treatment. No more bad attitude. Talking to each other again. Making food together.
> 
> Just not much opening up or responding on the boards. Which we said we would do, every night, for a month.
> 
> ...


What about the finances? Has he given you access to the history? The money? If not, you need to tell him that leaving you penniless is not acceptable. You have the right to half that money. If that's not forthcoming he's just stringing you along.

You need transparency in the finances and his communications. You need to know that he's not camming when you're not there, and you need to be able to look at the charges on the bank account to confirm that he's not buying meals for two and hotel rooms for rendezvous. You need to be able to see that he's not being billed for dating or hookup sites. He needs to be able to account for the income and outgo.

He needs to give you the access a wife is supposed to have. If he does, I'll give you my approval to go ahead and R. I know you've been sitting there biting your nails thinking "how can I get Nucking Futs to approve this R, I can't proceed without his approval." Well, there you go, that's what you need. Get this and I'll give you one of these: :smthumbup:
_Disclaimer: The preceding :smthumbup: was for demonstration purposes only and does not constitute an approval of the R._


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

So where is Mr. Willing to do anything to R with his wife? 

Seems like he would be here trying to get the best advice possible for successful R.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The money is important. You should have total access.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

do you believe that he's telling the truth about why he smashed that hard drive? he didn't say that he's willing to take a lie detector test
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yes. All these things. No more silent treatment. No more bad attitude. Talking to each other again. Making food together.
> 
> Just not much opening up or responding on the boards. Which we said we would do, every night, for a month.
> 
> ...


Sorry if it seems that little effort was put out by me responding to the boards last night.

I spent the hour responding back to a private message that I received.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> So where is Mr. Willing to do anything to R with his wife?
> 
> Seems like he would be here trying to get the best advice possible for successful R.


I am here and while I do appreciate these boards for both the good and the bad comments. I feel some of these posts are quite antagonistic. 

My wife loves me and she is using this as an outlet to share her pain as well as to try and seek help to make things better in our relationship. I am here to show her I am truly sorry for the pain I have caused and to also seek help in having a stronger relationship with better communication and to heal the pain from the past.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Everyone is telling me to leave. When my H is here, trying to talk about reconciliation with me. I should give up now?


I think you should give up your effort, you have done enough, it shows in your posts, but maybe not give up on the relation yet.

He has a small chance to do what is expected of him. He could post here and work on his problems, I believe if he dare to take that challenge it will work. Because people on TAM are no easy deal for him, but harsh critics. If he can take their points home and work on them, he has a chance.

It is fully up to him.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

BigandTallSection said:


> I am here and while I do appreciate these boards for both the good and the bad comments. I feel some of these posts are quite antagonistic.
> 
> My wife loves me and she is using this as an outlet to share her pain as well as to try and seek help to make things better in our relationship. I am here to show her I am truly sorry for the pain I have caused and to also seek help in having a stronger relationship with better communication and to heal the pain from the past.


A good place to start would be giving her access to the marital money. Step up BaTS, it's time to literally put your money where your mouth is.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Everyone is telling me to leave. When my H is here, trying to talk about reconciliation with me. I should give up now?


LWC, follow your heart and your mind. A lot of people will support giving up and leaving. But you know yourself best, and if you're not quite ready yet, you're not ready. It's not wrong. As you said, it's your whole life. Even though I'm on the other side of that (I'm a former wayward), I can relate deeply. People tell me to give up on my partner all the time, but for some of us, it's almost impossible until you're really sure there's no hope, regardless of what the situation is.

I do think B&T should commit to and meet certain conditions in order for you to consider reconciliation. Maybe he could write it up himself, have you approve it, and then he has to implement without fail. It's all well and good for him to talk about how he wants reconciliation, but he has to understand that he has to meet those certain conditions in order for it to happen. I mean, he has to think about it from your perspective. Why on earth would you want to reconcile and give him yet another go if he isn't even meeting your needs and fixing the problems from before?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> *What about the finances? Has he given you access to the history? The money? * If not, you need to tell him that leaving you penniless is not acceptable. You have the right to half that money. If that's not forthcoming he's just stringing you along.
> 
> I have access to most everything, there is just always a fluctuating amount of money. He makes, buys, sells and modifies music equipment. There is no way to know what deals are going on, what cases are pending on ebay, when money comes in or goes out of paypal.....I have access to all these things, these pages are always open on the main pc, his email, etc, his passwords I know, but he is still in control of everything....I can look up the amounts in these accounts...but I never know how much needs to be held back for shipping, buying parts, etc. so I ask first.
> 
> ...


I am not sure, he's transparent in terms of he doesnt really hide the fact that there is money going in and out every day. I've tried to get him to separate this. Just put a set amount in the joint account for the house, but this never seems to happen.

Its a flurry of activity all the time. I never know whats happening.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You have the right to know everything. If something were to happen to him, who is left to do taxes, etc?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> You have the right to know everything. If something were to happen to him, who is left to do taxes, etc?


I know. I have often thought of that. Right now he just takes care of everything.

Like tonight, DD came over after class, dejected, exhausted, saying 2 of her housemates have moved out and she needs 100 bux to keep the power on tomorrow...

I have no way to help her. If I had my own money this would not be a problem. And its not that he doesnt help her. He pays for her cell, he let her stay here for free all summer, if it came to it, he would let her stay here again.

Its just that everything is always up in the air, in process, one account to another and I cant keep up with it.

I guess its my own fault for not being more responsible for myself

She has midterms coming up and I remember the pressure of those days....I just wish I could help her more with these simple things.

Tonight, all I can do is make a healthy dinner for all 3 of us. But I do wish I could help her more.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> I know he has a new credit card that he makes payments on that I have no access to, he said he needed it in case we had an emergency or if we needed it for bills.


You should be seeing statements EVERY month. If they are paperless, you need online access ASAP. This is an example of what is now often referred to as "financial infidelity." When one spouse keeps financial secrets from the other, it's usually done because the one knows that the other would not approve of everything that's going on. 

Think about how wrong what you posted sounds: for there to be, in a marriage, a credit card "in case WE have an emergency" but YOU have no access to it??

What if the emergency happened after he became unconscious? Could you even find that card? Would you even be allowed to use it? If he were unconscious and the billing is paperless, how would you pay those bills if you don't have the password to see the bills? How is this good planning for the COUPLE? If it was a credit card that was truly in case of marital emergency, you'd be seeing statements and you'd have access NOW. 

If he's making payments on it, what kinds of things have been charged on it? Shouldn't you have been consulted about the bills and "emergencies" that this card was already used for? Or was this card really for some OTHER things too??

It may really have been all about joint bills and actual "emergencies" - I truly hope so!! I'm a BS whose husband switched from paper bills to paperless the month a local motel bill (tryst with the OW) was going to show up on one of his credit cards (I didn't usually monitor HIS credit card bills then, but I DO NOW), so I'm a little hyper vigilant about this subject!

It's OK for one spouse to handle most of the finances, but the other HAS to have complete and total ACCESS.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

He should still be a part of a discussion as to whether to give your daughter $100.

That's not the point.

It isn't so you can operate unilaterally.

Neither of you should operate that way.

I don't think the two of you have ever really been married, partnered in life.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Why isn't B&T answering these questions?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband*



clipclop2 said:


> Why isn't B&T answering these questions?


B/c LWC is doing the heavy lifting like always....


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> You should be seeing statements EVERY month. If they are paperless, you need online access ASAP. This is an example of what is now often referred to as "financial infidelity." When one spouse keeps financial secrets from the other, it's usually done because the one knows that the other would not approve of everything that's going on.
> 
> Think about how wrong what you posted sounds: for there to be, in a marriage, a credit card "in case WE have an emergency" but YOU have no access to it??
> 
> ...


She has complete access to all the finances. I'm doing the best to pay the bills and take care of everything financially. She knows the situation we are in and that I'm doing whatever I can to make sure we survive.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> He should still be a part of a discussion as to whether to give your daughter $100.
> 
> That's not the point.
> 
> ...


If I could help our daughter with the financial problems she is having I would. I'm in the hole right now financially. Whatever help we can give her I am willing to give.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> B/c LWC is doing the heavy lifting like always....


Could be, or maybe it's because I'm spending some of my time coming up with ways to bring money into the household to take care of financial matters so that we can survive and help our daughter before I come on line to respond to negative, unproductive posts that do nothing to help us have a better marriage.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> You should be seeing statements EVERY month. If they are paperless, you need online access ASAP. This is an example of what is now often referred to as "financial infidelity." When one spouse keeps financial secrets from the other, it's usually done because the one knows that the other would not approve of everything that's going on.
> 
> Think about how wrong what you posted sounds: for there to be, in a marriage, a credit card "in case WE have an emergency" but YOU have no access to it??
> 
> ...


Your posts are really helpful and I am thankful that you are on here to help us.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I always ask him what he thinks before I spend money or give money to DD. I did ask about the 100 and it is just not possible today. I NEVER operate unilaterally.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> You should be seeing statements EVERY month. If they are paperless, you need online access ASAP. This is an example of what is now often referred to as "financial infidelity." When one spouse keeps financial secrets from the other, it's usually done because the one knows that the other would not approve of everything that's going on.
> 
> Think about how wrong what you posted sounds: for there to be, in a marriage, a credit card "in case WE have an emergency" but YOU have no access to it??
> 
> ...


I agree with this but like I say, I cant keep up. I would have never opened a new credit card in my name without telling.asking.discussing it first. I didn't even know about this until he told me he was making payments.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> He should still be a part of a discussion as to whether to give your daughter $100.
> 
> That's not the point.
> 
> ...


He was part of the discussion, I told him about it and he said we were in the hole so it could not be done tonight. Maybe I wasnt clear, I dont operate unilaterally. He does.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He was part of the discussion, I told him about it and he said we were in the hole so it could not be done tonight. Maybe I wasnt clear, I dont operate unilaterally. He does.


I operate in the best interest of you and our family. Life is not easy but I am doing the best I can to make decisions so that we can all be ok.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> If I could help our daughter with the financial problems she is having I would. I'm in the hole right now financially. Whatever help we can give her I am willing to give.


And that is plain wrong. It looks nice, but you need to solve your household problems first!

Your daughter needs to pay for her share in your household.
That money should go direct into your wife's household account.

Separate your business accounts.

You seem to walk on the wild side financially. 

No more credit card expenses, give all the cards to your wife for surviving possibilities. That way you and she will know when you 'lend' from the household for your business, and she can stop it when it gets too much.

Let some one else do your accounting/budget, you as owner will go too far in order to keep rolling.
Make a new financial plan for your business together with this person, If your business is not profitable then quit.

Make saving her financially a priority!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> If I could help our daughter with the financial problems she is having I would. I'm in the hole right now financially. Whatever help we can give her I am willing to give.


This is true he is always giving money and stuff here and there when she needs it and he asks, if it is that bad, why doesnt she just come back home and save money? 

She is trying to make it on her own. She's young and a student. Scrambling every day, she is trying to be independent and just needs help sometimes.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I operate in the best interest of you and our family. Life is not easy but I am doing the best I can to make decisions so that we can all be ok.


Listen, I can see you do the best you can, but believe me, you are working in the wrong direction. 

Lots op people go downhill like you do, and you need to follow the proper directions to get out of this debt situation. You cannot heal yourself. You need to follow directions.

It can be a relief to have someone else give you the procedure, it can be a relief to start doing what you do best.

A financial coach, real life or on the internet will save you. Not you yourself, that's what I get from the situation.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> And that is plain wrong. It looks nice, but you need to solve your household problems first!
> 
> Your daughter needs to pay for her share in your household.
> That money should go direct into your wife's household account.
> ...


DD does not live at home, so she cannot share in her part.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> DD does not live at home, so she cannot share in her part.





> Like tonight, DD came over after class, dejected, exhausted, saying 2 of her housemates have moved out and *she needs 100 bux* to keep the power on tomorrow...
> 
> I have no way to help her. If I had my own money this would not be a problem. And its not that he doesnt help her. *He pays for her cell, he let her stay here for free all summer*, if it came to it, he would let her stay here again.


But when she is there she should pay a part, just covering of the real costs. I get from the info here your situation needs drastic financial measures!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Listen, I can see you do the best you can, but believe me, you are working in the wrong direction.
> 
> Lots op people go downhill like you do, and you need to follow the proper directions to get out of this debt situation. You cannot heal yourself. You need to follow directions.
> 
> ...


I have tried this. I have gone over a budget and every bill we have to work out monthly household expenses. I have tried it again. It DOES NOT WORK. He makes deals to make money. Every day. He is really good at it, its what has kept our head above water for a long time.

I tried to set aside 500 in an account just for investing in the business, that spiraled into a series of fights and I gave up and asked for just a household account to be set up.

Now its down to the wire and there is no money left.

Yes, he takes many risks with money. Some turn out very well. Right now a lot of things are coming to a head financially and there is a lot of stress.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> But when she is there she should pay a part, just covering of the real costs. I get from the info here your situation needs drastic financial measures!


Yes, like getting a credit card for financial emergencies.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> But when she is there she should pay a part, just covering of the real costs. I get from the info here your situation needs drastic financial measures!


When she was here she bought food and helped out with day to day money. She did the best she could also.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I am sorry, this is not me saying this, I feel for you, really.

BUT 

There is only one solution to this: He has to take the medicine prescribed by some many financial coaches, the best there are. He must do it.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> Yes, like getting a credit card for financial emergencies.


But isnt that card maxed out now? Isnt it just another monthly bill that needs to be paid along with everything else?

I never made one purchase, emergency or not, with that card.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> Yes, like getting a credit card for financial emergencies.


I agree you need one, but seen where you are now, it should not be you having access to it. Your wife should do that. For household emergencies, and to lend your business in only some cases money from your household.

Normally your business should have one too, to financy special opportunities only for a short time.

But I think your situation in your business is that you fill one gap with another. So to prevent you from going bankrupt you must not have the possibility to keep borrowing money.

You have to work also in your business activities from a financial plan, a cash flow budget is most needed. That will show you what business opportunities you can take, and which you have to let go.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> But isnt that card maxed out now? Isnt it just another monthly bill that needs to be paid along with everything else?
> 
> I never made one purchase, emergency or not, with that card.


right, but we have been using the card for our expenses to live.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I agree with this but like I say, I cant keep up. I would have never opened a new credit card in my name without telling.asking.discussing it first. I didn't even know about this until he told me he was making payments.







An easy clarifying step is to fit down at the computer and submit a request for a free online credit report for each of you.



Not sure, but I think it will list all credit accounts.



Beware most of the sites that provide that info also require a credit card number and permission to start charging you for monitoring after so many days. I believe one site does not have that regrettable policy.



Debts a spouse incurs can be partly the other spouse's responsibility after divorce.



Though we got past (rug swept) my wife's EA several years ago, there is still a savings account she keeps out of my view. There is, very likely, a specific lie still unaddressed involving money from that account. I think of that every single day.



The ironic, perhaps sadly ironic, thing is, there is room in some betrayed hearts to forgive and move beyond some pretty f'd up stuff. But, when the other is not able to be honest with oneself, and face the betrayed humbly and with all defensive armor off -- spiritually naked and emotionally vulnerable -- and be completely open, non-evasive, and truthful, the betrayed is blocked from empathy and seeing the betrayed as human. It is hard to forgive someone with empty eyes.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

When there are multiple accounts, I have found sites like mint.com to be extremely helpful in pulling together and maintaining the big picture.



On top of everything else, the money worries must be really worrisome for you both.



Is the business your full-time and longterm ambition, B&T? Or something filling in while looking for other opportunities in this down economy?


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> When there are multiple accounts, I have found sites like mint.com to be extremely helpful in pulling together and maintaining the big picture.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post. At this time I'm buying, selling and repairing music equipment to supplement our income. I would like it to be full time and long term but it is hard to sustain so I am also seeking other areas to come up with income.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> A good place to start would be giving her access to the marital money. Step up BaTS, it's time to literally put your money where your mouth is.


I agree she can have full access to all the financial records. Bats, I didnt realize the acronym


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

BradWesley said:


> Unfortunately, your marriage has been on life support for some time now.
> 
> Best bet is to pull the plug, file for divorce and move on with your life.


Pretty comical that your tagline is "Marriage is always a work in progress" and yet this is your posting


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> Pretty comical that your tagline is "Marriage is always a work in progress" and yet this is your posting


thanks for your contribution


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

BigandTallSection said:


> thanks, I've done all of this.


Done, or _doing_? You should never stop doing.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

soulpotato said:


> Done, or _doing_? You should never stop doing.


yep, thanks


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

BigandTallSection said:


> Could be, or maybe it's because I'm spending some of my time coming up with ways to bring money into the household to take care of financial matters so that we can survive and help our daughter before I come on line to respond to negative, unproductive posts that do nothing to help us have a better marriage.


I think posters are mostly echoing what your wife has been saying to you for a long time. And some of them are getting impatient. 

Imagine how your wife feels. D-day was in Jan 2012. That is TWO years which is 24 months which is 730 days!

Mr BaTs, sit down and tell your wife the truth about EVERYTHING. Answer all her questions honestly. Then promise her that you will never lie to her again. 

Maybe it's so bad that she will leave you. But maybe not. Don't forget that she has been thinking the worst for a very long time and she has invested a lot of her precious time on you. 

If she stays after you are truthful with her, go through ALL the business/finances with her. Hand it over and allow her to handle the bookkeeping from now on. You handle the nuts & bolts. That is what couples do. 

It should NEVER have been a matter of you 'allowing' her or not. You ignored her many requests and the credit card stunt you pulled was outrageous frankly. It's 2014, not the 1950s. 

Truth is the whole basis of marriage. You're wasting her time - and your own. This has gone on far too long. You are torturing her. . . and yourself too. 

The only way to the other side is to walk through the fire. Do it.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

Great forum for making peoples problems more than what they should be. My wife is upset over something that happened two years ago, which I have addressed and fixed. Now it's time to pounce on me with regards to finance. No I'm not hiring hookers and having a sex party. I made a mistake two years ago and went online looking at porn while my wife slept because I felt bad about myself and she rejected me when I would come on to her. I destroyed the hard drive after she had it in her possession for two days because I wanted to have a fresh start. She is a software engineer and told me she had mirrored the drive and had a copy of everything that was on there. It is hard for the simple minded to see that I stuck a screw driver in the hard drive and threw it away. I am sorry but that was my choice. I am an extremist and I felt I needed to get rid of it in order to move forward. I am tired of the Jerry Springer mentality of people thinking that there must be more and that I am a cheater and liar. I am the only one making money in this relationship and I am trying to support myself and my wife. I'm sorry for all the failed relationships that you have had to endure, but I dont think any of this is helping our relationship. I'm tired of being the bad guy. I've done everyting I can to make things better.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

********** said:


> I think posters are mostly echoing what your wife has been saying to you for a long time. And some of them are getting impatient.
> 
> Imagine how your wife feels. D-day was in Jan 2012. That is TWO years which is 24 months which is 730 days!
> 
> ...


Thanks for being clueless.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

********** said:


> I think posters are mostly echoing what your wife has been saying to you for a long time. And some of them are getting impatient.
> 
> Imagine how your wife feels. D-day was in Jan 2012. That is TWO years which is 24 months which is 730 days!
> 
> ...


Sorry they are getting impatient. WOW two years, 24 months which is 730 days. 

I have sat her down and answered all of her questions truthfully. I have not lied to her. 

I am taking care of all the finances which is a very large burden.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

I have been patient for two years and begged her forgiveness and gone without any intimacy with her while I do everything I can to make things better. There is no "credit card" stunt. I am trying to survive financially and to take care of her and help her daughter. She has a bachelor's degree and hasn't been employed throughout our marriage. I am the bad guy because I couldn't express my feelings that I felt bad and wanted things to be better between us, now I am a liar and a cheater and also to be blamed for our financial problems? I try every day to make things better and I am responsible for everything in our relationship. I go without while she goes on these boards and is told to separate and divorce me while I do the best to take care of things.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

But you are a cheater and liar, B&T and it sounds like you are trying to minimize the pain you caused your wife by your actions. You are still calling it "just porn" when it was live sex cams. That in itself I'm sure causes her pain.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> But you are a cheater and liar, B&T and it sounds like you are trying to minimize the pain you caused your wife by your actions. You are still calling it "just porn" when it was live sex cams. That in itself I'm sure causes her pain.


Yes it was live sex cams which I didn't partake. I can say I cheated and ask for forgiveness would that be better?


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

I didnt hook up a camera or participate or contact anyone in anyway. If I need to say that it is cheating, I will and have done that.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> But you are a cheater and liar, B&T and it sounds like you are trying to minimize the pain you caused your wife by your actions. You are still calling it "just porn" when it was live sex cams. That in itself I'm sure causes her pain.


What more is there? I have taken full blame and even agree to not mention things in the past that she has done that has hurt me. What more can I do?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband*



BigandTallSection said:


> Yes it was live sex cams which I didn't partake. I can say I cheated and ask for forgiveness would that be better?


You did partake. Watching is partaking. You are trying to minimize again by saying "oh well I didn't hook up a camera or anything". So what! Look at the pain it caused your wife you looking for sexual gratification outside the marriage.

And the only reason you don't bring up things from the past is you don't want her to bring things up from the past.

So you have asked for forgiveness. What have you done to earn that forgiveness?


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> You did partake. Watching is partaking. You are trying to minimize again by saying "oh well I didn't hook up a camera or anything". So what! Look at the pain it caused your wife you looking for sexual gratification outside the marriage.
> 
> And the only reason you don't bring up things from the past is you don't want her to bring things up from the past.
> 
> So you have asked for forgiveness. What have you done to earn that forgiveness?


Did your spouse cheat on you?

Ok I betrayed my wife. I have accepted full responsibility, I have done everything she has asked to make things better. I have tried to talk though everything with her and begged her forgiveness, I have given up my needs and let her know that if she can not forgive me I understand and will do whatever she needs in order for her to be ok.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband*



BigandTallSection said:


> Did your spouse cheat on you?
> 
> Ok I betrayed my wife. I have accepted full responsibility, I have done everything she has asked to make things better. I have tried to talk though everything with her and begged her forgiveness, I have given up my needs and and let her know that if she can not forgive me I understand and will do whatever she needs in order for her to be ok.


Yes he did. And I tried reconciliation for 5 yrs only to be cheated on again. 

What are the "needs" you have given up?


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Yes he did. And I tried reconciliation for 5 yrs only to be cheated on again.
> 
> What are the "needs" you have given up?


So do you think that maybe you are giving me a hard time and trying to help my wife based on your experience?


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Yes he did. And I tried reconciliation for 5 yrs only to be cheated on again.
> 
> What are the "needs" you have given up?


This is not the same situation. I am sorry for what happened to you.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

I have gone without the intimacy and closeness we once had because I was unable to communicate the feelings I had.

So, because I missed what we had that was special and was unable to talk with her about it I have screwed things up and things are worse now then ever.

I'm sure it would be easy for alot of guys to move on but she is everything to me and I know I would never find another like her. She is my soul mate and I just wish I could find a way to make things like they once were.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband*



BigandTallSection said:


> So do you think that maybe you are giving me a hard time and trying to help my wife based on your experience?


Yes that is exactly it. I have a lot of experience dealing with trying to R with a cheater. It may not be the same situation but you cheated and are trying to stay married. That is the same. 

Have you read any threads from truly remorseful spouses who have cheated? That's where you can start realizing what you need to do to help your wife heal.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Yes that is exactly it. I have a lot of experience dealing with trying to R with a cheater. It may not be the same situation but you cheated and are trying to stay married. That is the same.
> 
> Have you read any threads from truly remorseful spouses who have cheated? That's where you can start realizing what you need to do to help your wife heal.


That's a good suggestion. I need to go to other threads and read their posts as well as others that have contacted me to help give me ideas and suggestions to make things better. I appreciate this.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Anyone have any suggestions on threads for B&T to read??


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I have gone without the intimacy and closeness we once had because I was unable to communicate the feelings I had.
> 
> Ok well get into marriage counseling, read self help books, DO SOMETHING to help bridge the communication gap besides passive aggressive techniques of stonewalling and being silent! That is not the way to heal communication issues. Get a 3rd party involved if you have to...don't just give up. Thats what it seems like you are doing. Just b/c you are unable to communicate, does that mean you don't want to try to figure out HOW to communicate WITH YOUR WIFE properly?
> 
> ...


So either you really want to fix things with your wife or you don't. What are you going to do to really fix them if you mean it that she is your soulmate? 

Here is a list of things I think you should do to help her regain some trust in you:

1. Give her all access to the bank ledger and credit card transactions
2. Get into MC to work on communication issues
3. Give her full transparency to your cell phone, email accounts, FB, anything like that. IDs and Passwords.

Have you done any of these at all since the online affairs?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

We never get anywhere because he always takes everything back and then blames me, or anyone, anything else he can.

Some of the last posts he made were really sarcastically mean IMO. When asked a direct question, he attacked the poster!

He is going to keep repeating the official story and thats why a lie detector is a waste of time. Hes even coming on the boards and repeating his lies, believing they are real.

Then he pathologizes ME.

He paints it out that he is the long suffering husband who has tolerated me making problems bigger than they need to be and causing problems for no reason.

He makes it seem that I am yelling at him all the time when he is yelling right back! Our bad fights are bad because I dont back down no matter how mean he gets. I want my life back. 

We havent had a blow up for a while. But when we do? He times our arguments and then says I have been screaming at him for x and so hours, even though he is making *horrible* comments throughout and laughing or walking away then blaming me for all of "our" problems, when they are really HIS problems.

I am shocked it only took him a few days of posting before he said it would be easy for other guys to leave me. Again, like he is doing me a favor by staying.

He still says he didnt cheat. This, after he was caught in an online sex club SEVERAL TIMES!!!! This is like saying "I was only hanging out in the [email protected] looking for girls that look like you, but I couldn't find any, I didnt buy anything yet. Why are you getting so upset? I didnt actually hook up?"

Even if I believed that, it still is a very cruel thing to make your wife accept and get over. And if I do "get over it" without having him address WHY he chose to break his vows, then I am setting myself up for more heartbreak.

Also, he went to this place right after his birthday, when I cooked him a big steak dinner, gave him eurotica (extremely sexually explicit graphic novel) AND a blow job!

So obviously, when he says all I do is b!tch and he has to go without and thats why he goes to these places, he's not really telling the whole story.

He goes to those places because he is a cake eater. He wants to do whatever he wants and then blame me for it.

No he hasn't done LOTS of things I have asked for. And he knows that.

My problem with him is on full display by his posts over night. He just keeps saying he's done all that is required even though he still keeps the silent treatment going until only a few days ago, has done nothing to repair our sex life, address his always looking for other sexual partners, (and then the finances, come on....he opens a credit card and maxes it out unbeknownst to me, then says WE have been using it for expenses?) He says "ok I'll say I cheated, will that make it better?" then he calls a poster who is trying to help "clueless"!

I believe he also called them biased and simple-minded.

I am really at my wits end.

I have told him its fine if he doesnt want to deal with any of this. I have told him he is free to live that life several times. He doesnt want freedom. He wants to stay and "work on it" by painting himself out to be a victim and turn me into a shrew, so he can justify looking for comfort "elsewhere".

This is torture.

My suggestion of threads to read? 

Try the Cloak and Dagger series.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> So either you really want to fix things with your wife or you don't. What are you going to do to really fix them if you mean it that she is your soulmate?
> 
> Here is a list of things I think you should do to help her regain some trust in you:
> 
> ...


I have done all of these things except the marriage counseling. We agreed to come on here as a way of counseling.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> We never get anywhere because he always takes everything back and then blames me, or anyone, anything else he can.
> 
> Some of the last posts he made were really sarcastically mean IMO. When asked a direct question, he attacked the poster!
> 
> ...


I'm sorry if my posts have brought out more anger in you. I thought it was okay to post and was part of our agreement to help us move forward in our marriage. It may be best for me to start my own thread.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I have done all of these things except the marriage counseling. We agreed to come on here as a way of counseling.


None of these 3 things has happened. Actually, they are worse now than ever.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I'm sorry if my posts have brought out more anger in you. I thought it was okay to post and was part of our agreement to help us move forward in our marriage. It may be best for me to start my own thread.


For what? So you can evade questions and attack people who are giving their opinion?

YOU NEVER RESPOND TO THE ISSUES I have raised over and over.

Now you are going to start your own thread without addressing ANYTHING?

You are virtually walking away.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

You are HAND FEEDING the demons that are destroying us.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> None of these 3 things has happened. Actually, they are worse now than ever.


If these things never happened, B&T, why are you lying about them? 

These little lies like this are what really drives the wedge between you and your wife, especially after cheating.

You may think they are no big deal, but ANY lie or information kept is like being betrayed over and over again. It is like picking a scab until it is reopened and starts bleeding again.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Here are some things on Remorse, B&T. If you could quote this and list the things you have done for each point it would maybe help LWC see the effort you have put into R. 

There are also some qualities/behaviors to look for when someone is genuinely remorseful... 

They are signs/actions that someone will commonly exhibit (coping mechinisms) when internally healing from an action or decision that they have made which they feel was wrong... These are obviously not hard cold "musts" for a spouse to qualify as genuinely remorseful... But, I hope this gives you a "roadmap" of some indicators....

1. A remorseful spouse is willing if not eager to confess everything about the behaviors and mistakes they made. They commonly show a genuine desire to "come clean". 

2. A remorseful spouse is openly accountable for their actions and seeks to identify and make changes to insure that this behavior does not reoccur. (They feel genuine pain, therefore they seek to prevent this pain from reoccuring. (normal human response to pain - AVOID IT) (No genuine pain = No reason to seek a solution to avoid repeating that pain).

3. A remorseful spouse will seek to "work", not only on themselves but on general life responsibilities. A remorseful spouse faces the responsibilities of thier day-to-day life and will often show increased motivation to meet those tasks. The work is often approached in a more "humble" way by the remorseful spouse. 

4. A remorseful spouse will not object to limitations (i.e. transperency) set by the faithful spouse as a result their actions and in an effort to promote the healing of the violated trust. 

5. A remorseful spouse faces the pain they have caused. Aremorseful spouse will allow you to express the intesity of the feelings and hurt their actions have caused without justifying, minimizing or blame-shifting.

6. A remorseful spouse seeks forgiveness and respects the process of forgiveness often takes time. They will not be impatient or pressure the injured spouse to say "I forgive you" and will never exhibit a "get over it!" attitude. 

Other things to consider:
INDICATORS OF REMORSE 
* Actions match words. 
* Accepts full responsibility for the affair without blaming the BS, a bad marriage, or other outside factors. 
* Expresses sorrow for hurting the BS and the M. 
* Shows compassion and actively assists the BS with handling triggers. 
* Does not become defensive or shut down when BS brings up affair-related emotions, issues, or questions. 
* Answers questions honestly and completely. 
* Does not avoid the BS or become frustrated that the BS is not “healing fast enough.” 
* Contributes at least 60% of the joint effort at rebuilding the marriage. 
* Actively works to understand why he or she made the choice to have an affair and shares insights with BS. 
* Does not think solely about himself or herself. Considers how actions impact the BS. 


Remorse is so important to R. It's the conerstone that everything else is built on. Without it, the M can not heal. 

Remorse involves far more than just saying "I'm sorry." It's conveyed through consistent actions. The above list is not comprehensive, but it is meant to be an example that the FWS's behavior should be clear sign that he or she understands the pain the A caused and is committed to healing the M. Simply hanging around the house is not remorse. And it is not R.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I'm sorry if my posts have brought out more anger in you. I thought it was okay to post and was part of our agreement to help us move forward in our marriage. It may be best for me to start my own thread.


All you are doing is blaming me and threatening to leave the thread. I thought it was ok to post also. I thought you would respond to the issues, not blame and demean others within a few days.

You are not responding to direct questions or anything I am concerned about.

You are saying things are not the way they are in the face of direct, repeated evidence.

You are not transparent if you have accounts and credit cards I dont know about. (you say you did this for "our" emergencies)

You continue to lie about what you are doing on the computer and erase your history. (you say you did this so you wouldn't get b!tched out)

You have repeatedly refused to go to marriage counselling or individual counselling. (you say this is because of something I did, 15 YEARS AGO)

So, no, you are not doing the things I need to move on. And I am tired of arguing about it. The only reason there is a fight in the first place is because you keep saying that none of this is happening WHEN IT IS.

Just like you say the cheating wasn't happening, WHEN IT WAS.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

You two are locked in a game of t!t for tat.

And it all goes back to the original cheating. Sad.

You two, if you don't stop it, will end up divorced.

And honestly, maybe that is for the best.

When there is no moral high ground everyone drowns.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Getting back to basics, how is the food being paid for? How about rent and utilities? The relationship is messed up, but there's a hierarchy of needs, and food and shelter seem to be dicey now, so as long as that's an issue, can you really deal with the marriage problems if you don't know where your next meal is coming from or if there's going to be heat and water and a roof over your head?

So I suggest dealing with the finances first. ALL accounts, personal, business, paypal, credit card, whatever - passwords and statements get shared TODAY. All on the table. Nothing hidden or held back.

And somebody needs to find the nearest food pantry. No sense in paying for all your food when you can get some or all of your meals for free.

I think survival as a joint project might take some of the pressure off. B&TS has a chance to be fully honest and transparent about all of the money stuff. But it can't really wait because if you can't afford $100 for a daughter who's going to have her electricity shut off, you're obviously in a bad place. I suggest you try working on THIS together today and see how it goes. Other issues later. But there has to be 100% honesty!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Really, you call this tit for tat?

Its obvious that it boils down to having different values. He doesn't think he cheated, yet he knows I consider it cheating, which is why he hides it from me and then lies about what he's doing.

He is cheating me out of having the life and marriage I wanted. He knows how I feel about porn, and I dont even get to have a converation about that because he thinks what he is doing is porn.....it wouldn't be porn if I was doing that while he was at work. Or better yet, if I was doing that while he was sleeping!

I have told him a thousand times that he can be free to live that kind of life, but I don't want to have a marriage like that. I don't care if he wants to live like that, I am not judging him, I am saying I don't want to live like that. So he just lies and goes behind my back.

I have the right to make an informed decision about how I want to live. And I don't want a future with a man who thinks its OK to cheat as long as I dont find out about it.

Its horrible. And when I ask to work out a separation, he wont. So I said come here and talk it out and he is calling people "clueless" and "simple-minded", then saying he'll abandon the thread, so fine.

I guess if I dont just put up with it, I am engaging in tit for tat.

I want out of this nightmare. 

I would think after 10 faithful year he would at least be decent enough to let me go if he isn't serious about dealing with the issues that are tearing us apart, destroying the trust and faith, and breaking my heart.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

michzz said:


> You two are locked in a game of t!t for tat.
> 
> And it all goes back to the original cheating. Sad.
> 
> ...


I have tried to take the moral high ground. I have been going years without sex or affection, and I am not out complaining to some POSOM about how my H neglects all my needs and cheating.

I was staying to fight for my marriage which looks like it was a mistake.

I don't feel loved at all. I feel horrible and am exhausted.

This isn't reconcilliation at all.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

BaTS, 

I'm writing one of my infamous "long replies" to you and hoping the LWC will read it also. It is going to take me a while because I'm going through each one of your posts and showing you sort of "step-by-step" where the issue is in what you wrote and how it probably sounds to LWC.

HOWEVER, I want to tell you both something right now. One overarching theme I hear loud and clear from both of you is that "He's at fault" "NO! She started it!" kind of attitude. Here's my first and strongest word of advice for you:

STOP BLAMING YOUR SPOUSE!!

Both of you have behaved badly, and both of you are responsible for what you chose and what you did. One thing I learned from my own divorce is that if my stbxH yelled and screamed and carried on like a whirlwind beside me, I had a choice to either join the storm, or not join the storm. It wasn't his choice to "make me scream" no matter what he did--I made the choice! 

So LWC, I don't care if he did give you the cold shoulder for several days--I think we all agree that's childish and manipulative--but YOU are the one who makes the choice to scream at him. You could choose to be silent, turn, and walk out the door (going to another room or just leaving the relationship ... as you choose!). You don't "have to" scream at him. 

And BaTS, I don't care if she does scream at you--which I think we all agree is verging on abusive and antagonistic--YOU are the one who chooses to avoid everything, deny everything, and lie to her. You could choose to admit it's happening. You could choose to stop doing the destructive action and just do nothing. You could choose to try telling her the truth once and just say, "I am afraid to tell you the truth because I don't want you to yell but I'm going to be brave and be honest anyway." You don't "have to" lie to her!

So advice #1--stop looking at your spouse. I realize the list of crimes against you is GIGANTIC. I realize you think of yourself as the innocent one, whereas your spouse is the monster. Both of you have legitimate grievances!! But until you stop looking at your spouse and start looking at yourself and what you have done and are doing...you haven't a chance. 

LWC...for now, for the time being, forget him and "what he's done." What are YOU doing? Is this who you truly are? Are you an angry, bitter, unforgiving, uncomforting, asexual being? If not...how did you become who you're not? And don't say "BECAUSE HE...." tell me how you became who you're not by focusing on what YOU chose to do or stop doing. 

BaTS...for now, for the time being, forget her and "how she's not forgiving you." How are you acting NOW? Is this who you truly are? Are you an devious, controlling, punishing, harsh, liar at heart? If not...how did you become who you're not? And don't say "BECAUSE SHE...." tell me how you became who you're not by focusing on what YOU chose to do or stop doing. 

Okay...more later this afternoon/evening...


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

affaircare, i go into whatever room hes avoiding me in and tell him i cant live without being spoken to for days. when he's in silent mode there is nothing. no grocery shopping, no gas money, no dinner made at night. nothing. for days.

even if there is food in the kitchen and i am as sweet as pie and very quietly tell him there is food made, he refuses to eat. or acknowledge you even exist. he stays up all night and sleeps all day just to avoid me.

i have no idea how much money there is or if its even ok to go shopping. i just give up and sit in the library.

i am just lost and have no resources.

i was working when we got married. i would love to be working now. it would help a lot with the finances but i cant even get through a week and get things together to do this because i have no cooperation from him. he is checked out completely. the only reason he's talking now is because i cant take anymore silence and stonewalling

so i have no way of knowing what is going to happen next.

all i ever do is make him angry

i just feel horrible and lost


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am just tired of going home and being hated and avoided. I cant handle it every day. It was OK for a couple days and then someone on the boards made him mad, so when I got home I got the silent treatment. Even though I didnt do anything!

I just want to feel OK again

I dont know what to do


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

If he is going to do nothing but avoid and be passive agressive, there really isn't anything you can do.

You are going to have to learn coping techniques if you plan on staying in the marriage. Or you are just going t have to get the confidence to leave him. 

He is putting the ball in your court. He isn't going to change.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> i was working when we got married. i would love to be working now. it would help a lot with the finances but i cant even get through a week and get things together to do this because i have no cooperation from him. he is checked out completely. the only reason he's talking now is because i cant take anymore silence and stonewalling


BaTS, your wife wants to work. Why don't you ask her what she needs to get a job and see that she gets it? One of you bringing in a regular salary may reduce the financial stress enough for you two to start healing.

And by what she needs to get a job I'm just talking about things like gas in the car, a new outfit for interviews, a trip to get her hair done, that kind of thing, not a new university education or any thing big like that.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> BaTS, your wife wants to work. Why don't you ask her what she needs to get a job and see that she gets it? One of you bringing in a regular salary may reduce the financial stress enough for you two to start healing.
> 
> And by what she needs to get a job I'm just talking about things like gas in the car, a new outfit for interviews, a trip to get her hair done, that kind of thing, not a new university education or any thing big like that.


I have 2 degrees. I want to get a contract. I built his web environment for him to have his own business and a music studio in the basement so we could both have a rehearsal and recording space. What he said he wanted. I worked for an architect to earn money and the pc he uses every day for his business. I am not the "problem" he makes me out to be. I can make lots of money and did when I worked.

The last time we broke up (for the same thing) I paid his rent for a month and moved out because he wasnt working at the time and I was.

I thought he would at least do the same for me.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I have 2 degrees. I want to get a contract. I built his web environment for him to have his own business and *a music studio in the basement* so we could both have a rehearsal and recording space. What he said he wanted. I worked for an architect to earn money and the pc he uses every day for his business. I am not the "problem" he makes me out to be. I can make lots of money and did when I worked.
> 
> The last time we broke up (for the same thing) I paid his rent for a month and moved out because he wasnt working at the time and I was.
> 
> I thought he would at least do the same for me.


Do you still have this music studio in the basement? Could you produce demos for local bands? And by you I mean either or both of you. It may not generate a lot of money but producing demos for locals may get you some getting by money.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Lost, I'll admit I haven't read all of this thread, just sampling here and there, but in these last few posts I can detect absolute 
RAGE and disgust in your voice. I'm no advocate for splitting up a marriage, but honestly considering what you say you've gone through with your hubby, why are you even trying to fix this? I guess I don't understand how anyone, man or woman, could put up with the level of apathy and disrespect you say your husband has shone, and continues to show to you. Have you two considered a trial separation to see if maybe, just maybe you can re-ignite the spark you once had. :scratchhead: (You might have already tried this, and if you did, I apologize for suggesting it. Like I said, I haven't read your entire thread.) You both deserve to be happy, and if you can't be happy with each other, maybe it's time to wave the white flag and just surrender to the inevitable. Is it stubbornness that keeps you trying, or are you seriously in love with this man and willing to put up with just about any indignity to "save" your marriage. You've certainly shown a lot more patience and understanding than I would have in a similar situation. Whatever you decide to do, I really wish both of you the best.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

thummper said:


> Lost, I'll admit I haven't read all of this thread, just sampling here and there, but in these last few posts I can detect absolute
> RAGE and disgust in your voice. I'm no advocate for splitting up a marriage, but honestly considering what you say you've gone through with your hubby, why are you even trying to fix this? I guess I don't understand how anyone, man or woman, could put up with the level of apathy and disrespect you say your husband has shone, and continues to show to you. Have you two considered a trial separation to see if maybe, just maybe you can re-ignite the spark you once had. :scratchhead: (You might have already tried this, and if you did, I apologize for suggesting it. Like I said, I haven't read your entire thread.) You both deserve to be happy, and if you can't be happy with each other, maybe it's time to wave the white flag and just surrender to the inevitable. Is it stubbornness that keeps you trying, or are you seriously in love with this man and willing to put up with just about any indignity to "save" your marriage. You've certainly shown a lot more patience and understanding than I would have in a similar situation. Whatever you decide to do, I really wish both of you the best.


Yes I am enraged. I have been trying to R and I just found out a couple weeks ago that my husband is still installing and uninstalling cameras and deleting his history. 

I am enraged that he would think he can still do that to me and then give me the silent treatment for days afterward, as if I am the one who committed the offense.

I have told him I want to fix this once and for all or hammer out a separation agreement. He said fine we will work out a separation...... And then ignored me for the entire day when he agreed we would do this, refusing to keep his word.

I am not trying to stay here and keep going. I am exhausted and broken. I am enraged and tired of being lied to and pathologized.

And I am also tired of him making promises and breaking them. Which he did just last night! How much can one person take before they have finally had it?

It never ends and he keeps both of us stuck here because he controls everything.

I get it, he hates me, then why not let me go?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

i believe there is a poster here who started a thread about dealing with the rage, its awful to find out you have been in false R.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

thummper said:


> Lost, I'll admit I haven't read all of this thread, just sampling here and there, but in these last few posts I can detect absolute
> RAGE and disgust in your voice. I'm no advocate for splitting up a marriage, but honestly considering what you say you've gone through with your hubby, why are you even trying to fix this? I guess I don't understand how anyone, man or woman, could put up with the level of apathy and disrespect you say your husband has shone, and continues to show to you. Have you two considered a trial separation to see if maybe, just maybe you can re-ignite the spark you once had. :scratchhead: (You might have already tried this, and if you did, I apologize for suggesting it. Like I said, I haven't read your entire thread.) You both deserve to be happy, and if you can't be happy with each other, maybe it's time to wave the white flag and just surrender to the inevitable. Is it stubbornness that keeps you trying, or are you seriously in love with this man and willing to put up with just about any indignity to "save" your marriage. You've certainly shown a lot more patience and understanding than I would have in a similar situation. Whatever you decide to do, I really wish both of you the best.


Yes I have tried this, I have tried everything. I was trying to help us both get out alive.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm out.

Neither of you can give a straight answer without asking for clarification.

Lie detector is necessary.

Responsibility is necessary, LWC.

I don't think LWC wants to be responsible. She wants him to just fix it.

Ain't gonna happen.

Divorce.

You guys aren't fixable IMO.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I'm out.
> 
> Neither of you can give a straight answer without asking for clarification.
> 
> ...


clip clop thats not fair, I have answered all of your questions. I have tried to answer everything honestly. I have been responsible for what I have written here. I reached out in good faith.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

When I have to ask if something happened recently.... And if you suggest you want give your daughter $100 because you don't have access vs you don't have the money...


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> When I have to ask if something happened recently.... And if you suggest you want give your daughter $100 because you don't have access vs you don't have the money...


I thought I explained this, I NEVER KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY THERE IS. It changes every day. I have cards to those accounts but I cannot withdraw the money without asking because I never know what amount of money he needs for parts, shipping, etc. Or what state any of these accounts are in.

There is never any money in the joint account.

AND he has credit cards that I have no access to.

So I have to ask. When he's in silent mode and not speaking, that is a terrible arrangement for me.

Like today. He has been sleeping all day. I can look up the amounts in the bank accounts, which I have done before on occasion, and take money out, but I will be told I am wasting money that we need for bills. So I dont do that. I wait.

If for instance,dd comes over and I want to give her any $$, or I want to use some $$ for something I need, I ask, and he will tell me yes or no. There is no budget. I have tried for the last 2 years. I look up the accounts today and they are in the red. But he still has money to go to the store and buy what he wants last night, while I have to get gas money from my mom.

Its not that I am trying to not give a straight answer. Its that the answer is a moving target.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is a very painful thread. Really, the pain is palpable.

It sounds to me like you are both very, very stuck. My own reaction is that you need to force a break in your very tragic, destructive pattern. Perhaps a mutual 180 for a while if you can't separate? 

I realize, LWC, that it seems galling if posters appear to assign equivalency to your behaviors. I don't think they are. I think they see that your WH cheated, has hurt you deeply, and hasn't managed to do what was necessary to make things better. Right now, though, you sound like you are in true primal scream territory and it is sustained.

I think you need, for your own health, to back out from that and try to regroup, try to recover yourself. Don't worry about R and whether it's succeeding or not. Just try to climb down from the place you're in now and take care of yourself. Only you, not your M. Give up the burden of your pain for a bit and try to just live with and for yourself. Even if it's just for a day or two.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am just tired of going home and being hated and avoided. I cant handle it every day. It was OK for a couple days and then someone on the boards made him mad, so when I got home I got the silent treatment. Even though I didn't do anything!
> 
> I just want to feel OK again
> 
> I don't know what to do


If you would stop trying to prove that you're this poor, helpless victim, I can tell you want to do. 

LWC, look at this post. You are tired of feeling hated. You are tired of the silent treatment. You want to feel OK again. 

*But the core issue of all of this is that you want to force HIM to make you feel loved! You want to force HIM to stop being silent!! You want HIM to make you feel okay!!!*

Okay actually that's two issues: 1) you put responsibility for how you feel onto your husband, and 2) you want to control what he does. 

Now I can hear you saying "NO I DON'T!" even as you read this, but let me tell you this: NO ONE controls your feelings but you. I know people who would get the silent treatment and choose to look at all their blessing and go on with their life quite happily. I know people who don't have physical intimacy for any number of reasons and they choose to enjoy the company of their spouse for what time they do have together. Your feelings are up to YOU!!

So in order for you to feel loved, it's not up to your husband to "make you feel that way." You have to stop put all that on him and realize that you are an adult now and you can choose how you feel. Okay I do get it--when someone treats you lovingly it is much easier to feel loved and vice versa when someone treats you poorly it is much easier to feel unloved. But if you want to feel loved, then LOVE YOURSELF. I don't mean "be selfish." I mean learn to value who you are, what you have to offer, where you are, why you are the person you are...all of it. When YOU love YOU, you never have to feel unloved again. Likewise, for "feeling okay." 

So like I said...eyes OFF your husband and his myriad of sins (in your eyes) and get working on YOU. 

Same for making him stop being silent. Okay I'm not condoning punishing your spouse by giving them the cold shoulder for days--I think we can all agree, that's the "wrong" way to handle it--but I can't help him right now, as I'm talking to YOU. I can only help YOU. And here's a truth for ya: you can not control anyone but yourself!!! Let me say that again:

YOU CAN NOT CONTROL ANYONE BUT YOURSELF!

He may choose to "do it wrong"--that's his right as an adult. (He also then has the responsibility to deal with the NATURAL consequences of his choice.) He may choose to be a jerk. He may to choose to love someone else, break up your family, and put you through a mean, spiteful divorce. He can do any darn thing he wants and YOU CANT" STOP HIM! And the sooner you "get that" the sooner you'll be able to move. 

Because the one and only person you CAN move is YOU! YOU!! You say you want a job but when we make a suggestion, you won't move you...you want to move him. You say you can't take it and you want to leave when we make a suggestion, you won't move you...you want HIM to pay for it for you, or agree to it, or jeez move your stuff for you! LOL 

My point here is this: all your threats of "I can't take it" and "I want to leave" aren't going to make him change one bit because you can't change him. Stop trying to change him...CHANGE YOU. Don't threaten...do. Don't "say" you want a job...depend upon yourself and do what you have to do in order to get a job. Don't say you can't take it and then sit there night after night yelling... depend upon yourself and do what you have to do in order to get out. Quietly. Deliberately. 

So in summary:

1) NO ONE controls your feelings but you. You have to stop putting responsibility for your feeling on your husband, and realize that you are an adult now and you can choose how you feel. 

2) YOU CAN NOT CONTROL ANYONE BUT YOURSELF! Stop trying to change him...CHANGE YOU. Don't threaten...do.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I thought I explained this, I NEVER KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY THERE IS. It changes every day. I have cards to those accounts but I cannot withdraw the money without asking because I never know what amount of money he needs for parts, shipping, etc. Or what state any of these accounts are in.
> 
> There is never any money in the joint account.
> 
> ...


SOOOO..this method is broken and not working for you. Stop using it. Get your own money, earn it yourself, keep it yourself, and never have to ask him for money again. 

See how your method = changing him and my method = changing YOU?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Thanks alte.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> This is a very painful thread. Really, the pain is palpable.
> 
> It sounds to me like you are both very, very stuck. My own reaction is that you need to force a break in your very tragic, destructive pattern. Perhaps a mutual 180 for a while if you can't separate?
> 
> ...


I am in primal territory not because he failed to do what I needed its that he *keeps* lying and creating confusion.

Every day.

I never get a break.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> SOOOO..this method is broken and not working for you. Stop using it. Get your own money, earn it yourself, keep it yourself, and never have to ask him for money again.
> 
> See how your method = changing him and my method = changing YOU?


I would love to employ that method. I am not wanting him to change anymore. I want him to stop dogging my steps so I CAN do this.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> If you would stop trying to prove that you're this poor, helpless victim, I can tell you want to do.
> 
> LWC, look at this post. You are tired of feeling hated. You are tired of the silent treatment. You want to feel OK again.
> 
> ...


AC, I know no one believes this, but I have been doing this. He is not being supportive of what I need to make that happen. He can be silent all day if he wants. The problem is WHEN HE IS SILENT I HAVE NO RESOURCES


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I would love to employ that method. I am not wanting him to change anymore. I want him to stop dogging my steps so I CAN do this.


I'm sorry if it feels like I am keeping you from earning money or having access to our finances. I'm sure it is frustrating having to ask me for money and not knowing if there is money, if you should use it, if you can use it etc.

This has been a hard month. My income was cut in half and I have been flying by the seat of my pants daily to bring money in. 

The arguing is making it more stressful for the both of us. We can sit down and go over the finances so that you have a better idea of what is going on with the money. I know we tried this before and worked out a budget to keep a certain amount of money in the household account each month but with the cut to the finances it has been pretty much impossible to do this.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> Great forum for making peoples problems more than what they should be. My wife is upset over something that happened two years ago, which I have addressed and fixed. Now it's time to pounce on me with regards to finance. No I'm not hiring hookers and having a sex party. I made a mistake two years ago and went online looking at porn while my wife slept because I felt bad about myself and she rejected me when I would come on to her. I destroyed the hard drive after she had it in her possession for two days because I wanted to have a fresh start. She is a software engineer and told me she had mirrored the drive and had a copy of everything that was on there. It is hard for the simple minded to see that I stuck a screw driver in the hard drive and threw it away. I am sorry but that was my choice. I am an extremist and I felt I needed to get rid of it in order to move forward. I am tired of the Jerry Springer mentality of people thinking that there must be more and that I am a cheater and liar. I am the only one making money in this relationship and I am trying to support myself and my wife. I'm sorry for all the failed relationships that you have had to endure, but I dont think any of this is helping our relationship. I'm tired of being the bad guy. I've done everyting I can to make things better.


Ooo....The Wrong Answer,

It is good you post what you think and feel.

But your are in an illusionary world. I would like you to consider how many of people here on TAM have destroyed a hard disk to hide evidence after being caught 'in the act'...

And how many of them would then react like you do.....

Right
less than 0.000001%

That alone should make you think, ask, react, question, communicate about your behaviour here with us.

I assure you the problem is not with your wife, it is with you. We have seen many people like you, your behaviour is more standard than you would like, more that we ourselves would like, because most of us are basicly the same man like you are. We make the same errors. It is no rocket science.

Please come to your senses.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I get it. I know its painful to read. I want a break from it. I know that this pattern has to change, I have been trying to force it IN ANY DIRECTION

Just these last 2 weeks I have been triggering badly. He keeps saying things are in the past, but I just found him deleting history and lying to my face about it, then it was dday anniversay, and he had been giving me the silent treatment for days and we were out of everything in the house.

Then he went back on his word twice in the last 4 days!

First, he said we would work out a separation and didnt do it. Then he said he wanted to work it out.

Last night he was so drunk he couldnt even walk, after he swore he'd quit drinking and hadn't had a drink in a very long time.

Its painful to live it.

I wish he would just give me a break.

Tomorrow is my oldest sisters birthday. I took my mom shopping today and am going over to cook an organic meal for her party.

I wouldn't even have the gas to do this if she hadn't given me the money. But he's got money to go break promises. He has been in bed all day.

Its hard to just have a normal day.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I'm sure it would be easy for alot of guys to move on but *she is everything to me* and I know I would never find another like her. She is my soul mate and I just wish I could find a way to make things like they once were.


Prove that by taking on the criticism here.

Dare to answer and stop acting like a child.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> AC, I know no one believes this, but I have been doing this. He is not being supportive of what I need to make that happen. He can be silent all day if he wants. The problem is WHEN HE IS SILENT I HAVE NO RESOURCES


I understand where you are coming from.


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I get it. I know its painful to read. I want a break from it. I know that this pattern has to change, I have been trying to force it IN ANY DIRECTION
> 
> Just these last 2 weeks I have been triggering badly. He keeps saying things are in the past, but I just found him deleting history and lying to my face about it, then it was dday anniversay, and he had been giving me the silent treatment for days and we were out of everything in the house.
> 
> ...


What can I do right now to make things better?


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## BigandTallSection (Feb 28, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Ooo....The Wrong Answer,
> 
> It is good you post what you think and feel.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the post. I should not be on here posting why I did what I did and trying to justify it in any way.

I am WRONG. I deeply hurt my wife. She has been loving and loyal throughout our marriage and I am truly sorry for the betrayal and hurt I have caused her.

I deserve her yelling at me, at least she is still trying and I need to be more patient and understanding and stop hurting her more by giving her the silent treatment. She would not have to be here sharing her pain and seeking advice if it was not for me and my actions. 

I am truly sorry for the things I have done and thankful that she is even trying to stay with me and have a life with me.

I will do everything I can. Thanks to the posters who are here helping. Please help me heal the pain and make things better for her and us.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

BigandTallSection said:


> I understand where you are coming from.


B&T, do you realize how that sounds? It's obvious that you really don't know where LWC is coming from. If you did, you'd be acting quite differently and making the changes she needs you to. At least, if you loved her the way you say you do...


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

B&T, LWC has told you many times how to make things better (as have posters here). Will LWC telling you one more time really bring it home and be the impetus you need to change things? I'm all for R, but reading your posts and responses the last few days, even _I'm_ ready to vote for giving up on you. She deserves so much better than this, and yet you just keep screwing around and going in circles with her, giving her the false hope that maybe you're finally serious each time. 

I really don't get your attitude. You're lucky she has put up with the BS for this long. But your luck will eventually run out, and then nothing you'll say will be able to bring her back. Don't let it get to that point.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

BigandTallSection said:


> I need to be more patient and understanding and stop hurting her more by giving her the silent treatment.


Yes. Of course. The silent treatment is the height of disrespect. If you love your wife the way you say you do, you have to stop the contemptuous behavior. I think she should give herself a serious break from her stress right now, but it appears that the financial situation makes that impossible for her. And what she gets from you is punishing silence and triggers. This isn't love, BaTS. Take a deep breath and recognize that. Start to see her again with the compassion that she deserves.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Why do you not want to answer any questions, B&T?

Myself along with other posters are trying to help you and your wife who you say you love and want to stay married to. 

Your attempt at answering questions that are directly asked to you by posters would be some sort of action that shows your wife you still care. Yet you seem to be even unwilling to do that. 

Why?


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Please read information on mental abuse and codependency and see if it fits. Given that you are responsible for your children, taking the focus off of your spouse and onto healing yourself will benefit you and your family tremendously. 

The only way back to the person you were is to work very hard. Would you consider therapy? Even reading self help information may help. Knowledge is power.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

B&T, LWC

I have a proposition for the two of you:

I expect you two to have no meaningfull sexlife anymore. 

I expect B&T to use internet porn to satisfy his (completely understandable) needs as a man.

So:

A. You two get obligate sex therapy

1. B&T is allowed to use internet to visit porn sites. 

2. The two of you have sex three times a week. In this stage is does not matter how, just look for 'slow sex'. Take your time and get used to being fysical together. It may be awkward at first. 

3. LWC is allowed to ask him for bringing the right atmosphere in the house. Maybe do some household stuff, fix some things.

4. B&T/LWC take turns in providing candles, scent, soft music and warmth in the bedroom.

B. Limit exhausting discussions

1. To prevent that discussions take over your life, and resentment lingers on and on, you are only allowed to talk maximum once a day for sometime about the conflict area's.

You are only allowed to ask open questions about how the other feels. No discussions, no accusing questions. Accept how the other feels, and refrase the feeling in your own words, to the satisfaction of the one that speaks out. Each gets one turn of about 10 minutes max.

2. Beyond this, no talking about these problems.

3. Separate these talks from the time you will have sex. Do something relaxing (apart or together) in between at least.


Think about this, and discuss it together. Express feelings!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I think it is bizarre that he says I scream at him all the time. Thats not true. We have been in some bad fights where we are both yelling at each other. But most days, there isn't one word. Not. One. Word.

No one deserves to be yelled at. He makes it sound like I do this all day. WE NEVER SPEAK.

Posters here seem to think I am begging him to stay with me, like I need his approval to feel OK or something. I don't. What I mean to say is that when he is in silent mode (which is all the time) I can't get anything done. Nothing. Daily life stops.

Then I catch him lying, with proof, and he comes up with some lame excuse that I dont believe, then gets defensive, blames me and withdraws emotional, physical and financial support.

Listen to the venom and blame he gives to strangers and then the very next night says he only is silent because of me. Imagine what I am getting!

Everything is always my fault. Even if I leave him alone all day and find coping strategies to deal with the silence. It still happens. Even if I leave the house until late at night, it still happens. Even if I am sweet as an angel, it still happens.

I am trying to get myself together so I can get a contract. I just showed him my portfolio 2 nights ago and he said he thought it was good. Then the very next night he starts drinking again and doesn't speak to me, FOR THE ENTIRE NEXT DAY, which means there will be no dinner, no money, nothing. 

He complains about money and then won't support me by having a home base I can count on, so I can work and make money to pay toward the bills I never even see.

He is making life very very hard for both of us and blaming me for it. Saying I am not over the "past". He keeps saying his *current behavior* is me not being able to get over the past.

Its a difficult problem to solve because he keeps sabotaging, taking everything back, minimizing the damage he did and continues to do and punishes ME every time he gets caught in yet another lie.

I think the problems with him are getting worse and some of them are a direct result of abusing internet porn. Everything he does is a symptom of this. The social anxiety and withdrawal, the foggyheadedness, the sleeping all day, the diminishing verbal communication, the excessive numbing with alcohol, the loss of physical strength, the impatience and the sexless marriage.

He says I reject him. I gave a detailed and thoughtful post about our sex life. He didnt respond. He said just last week he has no porn problem. So there really isn't much I can do in this case.

Today I am going over to my moms to help her with my oldest sisters birthday dinner. My other sister is out of town and there will only be a few of us there. I really need a break from this. 

I am sure when I get home he will be mad at me for taking the car and being gone all day. He gave me the silent treatment again because I was gone late with the car! But when I am here he refuses to speak to me, so I find something else to do with my day, work on getting stuff together so I can get a job, whatever I do, its wrong. He wont just communicate and tell me if he needs the car, or any kind of normal daily routine.

I am at a loss and have tried everything. Now he wont even work out a separation. I have no interest in fighting or dragging this out. I just found out I have been in false R and dont want to go through all of it again. 

I had no idea he was going to come here and repeat the official story and say I am to blame for everything, his silence, his lies and his cheating. I thought he was coming here to talk it out with me.

This has been a disaster.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> B&T, LWC
> 
> I have a proposition for the two of you:
> 
> ...


Sorry, but he has a porn addiction that he is in denial about, that escalated so far, he destroyed my computer over me finding out how far. I do not agree with this suggestion at all. He uses porn whenever he wants as much as he wants and then lies about it. So me "allowing" it isnt going to fix anything.

Now he has escalated from that to live realtime sex sites and god only knows what else.

See how what I want in a marriage just gets thrown out the window?

I dont want a marriage like this. He creates problems and distance so he can feel justified seeking the comfort of other women. 

He has created the conditions for him to be "rejected".

Did you read my post about our sex life?

He can go find lots of women whose lives have not been destroyed by his porn addiction. I dont think I should have to be forced to deal with it.

There is no way I will allow him to continue to cheat on me AND sleep with him.

You have to remember, he thinks these live cam women are "porn". I don't. I think they are other women because they are.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

B&TS, will you schedule and take a lie detector test?

Will you stop making situational excuses? Eg. Finances this montg are half of normal so it is harder to provide access and information.

How about you get a job? 

How about you stop using cash for things and leave a paper trail?

How about you stop saying you will so whatever you can to help her heal and you actually answer questions and follow through? 

Did you really think you could bull**** your way out of this? Dude. Your nonsense ceases now. If you aren't capable then just say so and move out.

LWC, is your resume on Monster? LinkedIn set up?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

See_Listen_Love, I think you meant well. But please try to understand that many people find the use of porn offensive, for various reasons. So in general I think you should be cautious in suggesting its use to people. And in LWC's situation in particular, the very idea of incorporating porn into a plan for them going forward is probably a trigger for her because for her husband, porn escalated to live web cams (she hopes nothing worse than that, but evidence was destroyed, and that has added to her anxiety). Also, his use of porn became a serious problem that almost got her in big trouble when he used a computer of hers connected to her university.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> *but *if there is an agreement to fix the marriage and I am trying to fix it then I feel I should be met half way or at the least have her acknowledge that I am trying.


BTS, here, in one little (big) word, is the problem of your whole life.

You GET no buts any more. Not for this marriage. Not for this woman. You LOST all chances at any buts for a good long while. 

What you DO get is a chance - ONE chance that she is now giving you. A chance to do right. Stop making excuses. NEVER expect anything from her again until you have proven REAL CHANGE for ... IDK, maybe another 5 years?

Are you willing to do that? To stop using that word? To stop expecting to GET anything from her until you've made up for what you did?

And btw, she DID NOT AGREE to fix the marriage. She agreed to CONSIDER it. Are you going to spend your whole life twisting words around to get what you want at others' expense, or are you going to shut up, start learning, and CHANGE?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

The word "but" always comes before an excuse.

ALWAYS!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I am sorry for avoiding you *but *when I try to speak to you I am told that I am making small talk and that you dont want to pretend that everything is ok when it's not.


There's that word again.

And, so? You don't like her answer so you avoid? That's what children do. She's asking you to be a man.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I agree her needs are the most important and my needs should be on the backburner. *But*, if I am making the effort to acquiesce to her current needs and she is unwilling to offer any forgiveness or see that I am trying to fix the problems and heal the pain then how is anything going to be repaired?


There's that word again. I hope that by the time I get to today's posts, you have stopped using it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I'm not perfect *but *I am willing to do whatever it takes to make things better.


Great! 

When is the first MC session that you were going to schedule?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I hadn't been spoken to for days except to be blamed.


BTS, this was posted 3 days ago. 

Have you spoken to her for the past 3 days - WITHOUT blaming her or speaking negatively? Have you praised her? Have you asked her about her day? Have you asked her how she feels today? Have you told her what steps you have taken to make up for what you did?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yes I am. Because it is true for me. There will be no point in coming back to an empty house and a p!ssed off H.
> 
> What would be the point of that?


If you DID reconcile, it would be to a NEW home that would have new memories and a NEW husband who would never again be pissed off at you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I feel some of these posts are quite antagonistic.


You don't feel you deserve that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nucking Futs said:


> A good place to start would be giving her access to the marital money. Step up BaTS, it's time to literally put your money where your mouth is.


OMG, YES!

PLEASE please please EXPLAIN to us - and her, BTS, why she does not have access to the marital money. That one thing - if there IS a valid reason - would go miles toward having her believe you.

Well, actually, CHANGING the situation so she DOES have access would be the defining change in your character.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am not sure, he's transparent in terms of he doesnt really hide the fact that there is money going in and out every day. I've tried to get him to separate this. Just put a set amount in the joint account for the house, but this never seems to happen.
> 
> Its a flurry of activity all the time. I never know whats happening.


LWC, you should have ACCESS on all those accounts. Not just be able to SEE them. I now have sign-in access to all my husband's credit cards and I control paying the bills and moving money around.

If he is not willing to give you THAT access, you have no marriage worth staying for. Not in your situation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> She has complete access to all the finances. I'm doing the best to pay the bills and take care of everything financially. She knows the situation we are in and that I'm doing whatever I can to make sure we survive.


So she has a PASSWORD that allows her to go into those accounts and MOVE the money?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I operate in the best interest of you and our family. Life is not easy *but *I am doing the best I can to make decisions so that we can all be ok.


No, you are not.

SHE should be making these decisions alongside of you. That is one of her biggest complaints - that she is in the dark, playing catch-up, and has NO ACCESS to even get $5 to put gas in her car.

Explain that, please.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> right, but we have been using the card for our expenses to live.


How about this (novel thought): What if you go online, go to monster.com, and look up real jobs and start applying for them? Support your wife with a traditional, predictable job where she will always know there is money coming in?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> Great forum for making peoples problems more than what they should be. My wife is upset over something that happened two years ago, which I have addressed and fixed. Now it's time to pounce on me with regards to finance. No I'm not hiring hookers and having a sex party. I made a mistake two years ago and went online looking at porn while my wife slept because I felt bad about myself and she rejected me when I would come on to her. I destroyed the hard drive after she had it in her possession for two days because I wanted to have a fresh start. She is a software engineer and told me she had mirrored the drive and had a copy of everything that was on there. It is hard for the simple minded to see that I stuck a screw driver in the hard drive and threw it away. I am sorry but that was my choice. I am an extremist and I felt I needed to get rid of it in order to move forward. I am tired of the Jerry Springer mentality of people thinking that there must be more and that I am a cheater and liar. I am the only one making money in this relationship and I am trying to support myself and my wife. I'm sorry for all the failed relationships that you have had to endure, but I dont think any of this is helping our relationship. I'm tired of being the bad guy. I've done everyting I can to make things better.


Please go back to her post of about 3 days ago where she discusses ALL the issues that you have minimized. Address every one of them. If you won't do this, _your wife is going to leave you_. Do you see that yet? 

You make it sound like you had a ONS. Poor BTS, he's so misunderstood, all he did was trip and land on top of a girl, just that once.

Stop minimizing. It's your minimizing that has driven your wife to prepare to leave you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I have been patient for two years




YOU have been patient?

:thud:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> Yes it was live sex cams which I didn't partake. I can say I cheated and ask for forgiveness would that be better?


How is that possible? Was the cam turned on? Did you see the woman? Then you participated.

And yes, saying you cheated and asking for forgiveness is better. 

But not as good as addressing all the rest of her issues.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> Did your spouse cheat on you?
> 
> Ok I betrayed my wife. I have accepted full responsibility, I have done everything she has asked to make things better. I have tried to talk though everything with her and begged her forgiveness,


According to LWC, you do NOT talk through everything, you either blame her, criticize her, or avoid her - for days!

Tell the truth, and maybe she'll consider staying.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> So do you think that maybe you are giving me a hard time and trying to help my wife based on your experience?


I have never been cheated on, and I am being harsher on you than just about anyone else here. Don't try playing that 'oh, you're just bitter' card. It doesn't work around her. And it's not going to get your wife back.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> OMG, YES!
> 
> PLEASE please please EXPLAIN to us - and her, BTS, why she does not have access to the marital money. That one thing - if there IS a valid reason - would go miles toward having her believe you.
> 
> Well, actually, CHANGING the situation so she DOES have access would be the defining change in your character.


When he dishes out the silent treatment, I DONT EXIST. I am not considered as alive or having needs of any kind. It is impossible to look for a job under these conditions. Its like the 6th sense and I am dead, I just dont know it yet.

Today, I went in the kitchen and there was 10 dollars left on the butcherblock! This tiny bit of money is all I need to just have a normal day and try to focus on getting a job and not my marital problems.

Normally he just sleeps in the other bedroom with his wallet. 

This type of concession is enough to change the trajectory of my day and my life.

A large part of my frustration is removed by this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> She is my soul mate and I just wish I could find a way to make things like they once were.


LWC, maybe this is a good time to write out a list.

Give him a list here, for all to see, of ALL the changes you need to see in him - specifically - to keep you from moving out. Things like letting YOU have access to the money so your only choice is not to empty out the house on eBay. (btw, why ARE you not working, LWC, if that's true?)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I have done all of these things except the marriage counseling. We agreed to come on here as a way of counseling.


I believe she started this thread saying you agreed to go to MC as WELL AS coming on here for a month. In fact, I believe she said that YOU SAID you two should try MC. Did you not say that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I have done all of these things except the marriage counseling.


So she is now free to go into all bank accounts and withdraw money or cancel credit cards? You have given her owner privileges on all accounts?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I want him to stop dogging my steps so I CAN do this.


Bullcorn. What, is he standing in front of you so you can't get to the computer and fill out job applications? Is he standing in front of the car so you can't get out and go door to door to all the stores filling out applications?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> My income was cut in half and I have been flying by the seat of my pants daily to bring money in.


How many jobs have you applied for in the past 4 weeks?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BigandTallSection said:


> I understand where you are coming from.


Good change.

Now what are you doing to FIX this?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> When he dishes out the silent treatment, I DONT EXIST. I am not considered as alive or having needs of any kind. *It is impossible to look for a job* under these conditions.


I'm sorry, LWC, but that's just ridiculous.

Look, I get how much stress you are under. But if you are SO dirt poor, SO stressed out, that just him ignoring you renders you completely nonresponsive and incapable of a job search (but you are HERE, aren't you?), then you just need to look up your city's agencies and get booked into a mental facility for some needed rest and help.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> LWC, maybe this is a good time to write out a list.
> 
> Give him a list here, for all to see, of ALL the changes you need to see in him - specifically - to keep you from moving out. Things like letting YOU have access to the money so your only choice is not to empty out the house on eBay. (btw, why ARE you not working, LWC, if that's true?)


Our life together? He wanted to focus on music composition. We are both musicians. We had a deal that I build out his web environment, he starts his business and I built a studio in the basement. He was working full time and wanted to just do his business and he was making money off that to support the time off for music. We both put in time, work and money on making this happen.

When dday happened 2 years ago, I was devastated and looking at giving up the life we built together. He said he wanted R and I tried with lots of bumps in the road and then broke my arm in half. It took 10 months to heal. During this time we fought a lot and it was very difficult.

As soon as I started to heal up I wanted to get back to work. DD had moved out to go to university and there was no reason for me to just hang around the house. I realized I had no resources to work so I pushed an elephant up the hill and got my lic back and got a car. Then I sold a vintage keyboard on ebay and bought a new dell precision laptop. I had to get a lot of things in order for many months to have support for working tech contracts again.

My sister gave me tons of work clothes when she got a new wardrobe last month. I worked hard on my portfolio so I can pass a code review.

Then I found out I was in false R and he told me our marriage was over. And then he withdrew. Then he took my name off the lease we have lived in this house for 7 years.

I scrambled trying to find a way to keep my head above water and apply for jobs, its hard to do that if you dont know from one day to the next if your H is leaving you, if hes moving out, if he is going to talk to you or not.

He draws me back into these ridiculous fights by his passive aggressive style of nonparticipation. 

I would really like to be able to focus on getting a job. I feel I have no support from him to do this. 

He knows I can make good money. I dont understand why he wants to stop me from doing this.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> I'm sorry, LWC, but that's just ridiculous.
> 
> Look, I get how much stress you are under. But if you are SO dirt poor, SO stressed out, that just him ignoring you renders you completely nonresponsive and incapable of a job search (but you are HERE, aren't you?), then you just need to look up your city's agencies and get booked into a mental facility for some needed rest and help.


Its not emotional, IT FINANCIAL. He has money and I dont


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Its not emotional, IT'S FINANCIAL. He has money and I don't.


You're on a computer, aren't you? You have access to the Internet, don't you?

What else is needed to apply for these tech jobs you're looking for?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Bullcorn. What, is he standing in front of you so you can't get to the computer and fill out job applications? Is he standing in front of the car so you can't get out and go door to door to all the stores filling out applications?


Not at the moment but yes, he did all of these things the last time I had a job.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> You're on a computer, aren't you? You have access to the Internet, don't you?
> 
> What else is needed to apply for these tech jobs you're looking for?


The ability to have enough money to actually go to work until I get a paycheck.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I tell you what, if I had YOUR skills, which are SO in demand all over the WORLD, and I was THAT broke, I would be applying for no less than 20 jobs every single day. Hell, since you're not working and are stuck at home all day, make that 50 jobs a day.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> The ability to have enough money to actually go to work until I get a paycheck.


Your mother will give you gas money to make it to work.

Stop making dumb excuses.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Not at the moment but yes, he did all of these things the last time I had a job.


He stood in front of the car to keep you from driving to your job? Once? Every day? Every month? Come on...


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> You're on a computer, aren't you? You have access to the Internet, don't you?
> 
> What else is needed to apply for these tech jobs you're looking for?


Yes, and I work on my portfolio every day, Its done. I want to work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's done. Why are you on here instead of applying for jobs?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> He stood in front of the car to keep you from driving to your job? Once? Every day? Every month? Come on...


He TOOK my car while I was sleeping. Yes I know, just call a cab, I did that and was late. ITS A GOOD THING I HAD MONEY ON ME AT THE TIME


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> It's done. Why are you on here instead of applying for jobs?


I am doing both. I have no support from him for working. I am trying.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Why does it have to be a tech job? Is there not stores and other places you can find work at in your city? Sure getting a tech job would be nice but isnt the goal just to have some money coming in to start helping with the bills and food? 

Clay


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

If you really have all access to the money like he and you say, you should be able to go to the ATM to withdrawl money for gas.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Your mother will give you gas money to make it to work.
> 
> Stop making dumb excuses.


Its not a dumb excuse, its the truth. I cannot rely on my elderly mother for handouts, shes on a fixed income. He is the one who is supposed to be helping me, not her.

I just want him to stop causing problems for me.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Clay2013 said:


> Why does it have to be a tech job? Is there not stores and other places you can find work at in your city? Sure getting a tech job would be nice but isnt the goal just to have some money coming in to start helping with the bills and food?
> 
> Clay


I have degrees and experience with software companies, why would I not go for a tech job?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> If you really have all access to the money like he and you say, you should be able to go to the ATM to withdrawl money for gas.


As I said earlier, all of the accounts are now in the red. But he still seems to have cash on him.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I have degrees and experience with software companies, why would I not go for a tech job?


Why not just get something part time for now like a cashier position, so you can make a little bit of cash for the interviews for the tech jobs? 

Part time would give you some $$, get you out of the house yet still give you time to look for tech work.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I really get it that you do have those but we are not talking about making a career change. We are talking about you getting the basic essentials so you can move forward and then find that great tech job. I think you need to deal with the immediate issues first. You have to have money for gas or a cab if you need. You have to have money for food. You need to decrease your dependence on him if he is not going to open up and share this with you. 

Clay


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am trying clay.

I am trying to do all this without even having the basics. It changes every day.

I can count on nothing but problems. Thats the one thing he makes sure to give me every day.

I dont want him to change, just stop trying to keep me from changing.

I realize I need to take responsibility for myself. I realize there is a lot I can do without his help and I have done all of it.

All I wanted was a separation agreement and he stonewalled that and came on here defending himself.

I need out of this. I wish he would move out or let me move out. Help in some way make it happen. Nothing is working. 

He doesnt seem to understand that I will have to sell everything in this house to move out. He could easily afford a place somewhere and put and end to this craziness. He has an income. I don't. If he keeps forcing the issue, I will lose everything and so will he.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Its not a dumb excuse, its the truth. I cannot rely on my elderly mother for handouts, shes on a fixed income.


But you just said you cannot do it UNTIL YOUR FIRST PAYCHECK.

Which means you only need help for 2, maybe 3 weeks. And then, guess what? You can pay her back! 

Problem solved. 

God knows if I was your mother, I'd sure as hell want you out working instead of borrowing money from me cos of your deadbeat husband.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Our life together? He wanted to focus on music composition. We are both musicians. We had a deal that I build out his web environment, he starts his business and I built a studio in the basement. He was working full time and wanted to just do his business and he was making money off that to support the time off for music. We both put in time, work and money on making this happen.
> 
> When dday happened 2 years ago, I was devastated and looking at giving up the life we built together. He said he wanted R and I tried with lots of bumps in the road and then broke my arm in half. It took 10 months to heal. During this time we fought a lot and it was very difficult.
> 
> ...


LWC, this was your response to me suggesting you write out a list.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He TOOK my car while I was sleeping. Yes I know, just call a cab, I did that and was late. ITS A GOOD THING I HAD MONEY ON ME AT THE TIME


If you were working, of course you'd have had money on you at the time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I have degrees and experience with software companies, why would I not go for a tech job?


Because you can go to work at McDonalds TODAY and have money by next Friday.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> As I said earlier, all of the accounts are now in the red. But he still seems to have cash on him.


Then go to the bedroom, pick up his wallet, and take some out. I do that all the time. So does my husband.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> LWC, this was your response to me suggesting you write out a list.


this was my response to you asking why i am not working


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> If you were working, of course you'd have had money on you at the time.


This was before I got my first paycheck


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I I realize there is a lot I can do without his help and I have done all of it.


No, you haven't.

Honestly, it sounds like BOTH of you are feeding off of each other and avoiding reality. 

I'm rooting for you, LWC, but at this point you're your own worst enemy.

Stop making excuses. Put on some clothes, take that $10, put $5 in the tank, and go down the street filling out applications at every single store, like my DD has done many many times.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> this was my response to you asking why i am not working


Great! Then write out that list.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I get it, I need to be working. I would love to be working and not dealing with this crap.

He *has* money, he has his own business AND gets unemployment, he has enough to move out and get a bachelor pad and have as many girls as he wants and he doesn't even have to get a job!

He chooses to stay with his dependent wife and blame her for all his problems while they get worse and worse.

He refuses to move out or help me move out with even a LITTLE transition money, he is forcing the issue because he controls all the resources.

I WANT OFF THE ROLLERCOASTER


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> No, you haven't.
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like BOTH of you are feeding off of each other and avoiding reality.
> 
> ...


I have been applying for jobs every day.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> he is forcing the issue because he controls all the resources.


So start going into those accounts and taking money out. HALF of all the money he earns, in whatever way, IS YOURS. Every day, access the accounts 3, 5, 10 times a day. Every time there is more than $50 in them, take $25 out.

Let HIM worry about paying bills for now. Take the money, put it into a new separate account, and start building up enough to get your apartment or to rent a room.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

Its really simple. If he is not going to share the money with you and not work on the marriage you don't really have any choice but to work on moving out. 

Start selling things and get out. If you have to go to a woman's shelter than do it. If you don't think you qualify for it I strongly disagree with you. Its clear to everyone here that you are being abused. This is exactly what those places are setup for. Emotional abuse is just as damaging as physical abuse. In some cases its almost worse. 

You have to put a stop to this. We can only give you suggestions and try to motivate you to either fix your marriage or get out. Hes clearly not going to fight for your marriage so I suggest you get out. 

Clay


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LWC - Since your WH doesn't want to draw up a separation agreement, why don't you do it? What is stopping you from you putting a pen to paper and writing it out?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Wait - he's getting unemployment? 

That should be going into the joint account. And you should have EASY access to that money because it's FAMILY income, substituting for the income he was earning for the FAMILY before he went on unemployment. This baloney of leaving a $10 bill for you is demeaning and ridiculous. He is controlling the money, just as he has controlled the truth by driving the screwdriver through the hard drive (and why bother doing that if you'd made a "mirror" image of it? what was that story all about?).

If you need money to get your job, that should not be something you have to hope is left for you in the kitchen.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Him getting unemployment and having a business is concerning to me.

Him getting unemployment and not looking for work is probably against the rules, too.

UI doesnt last forever, either.

Regardless, LWC, you are chock full of excuses. Face that truth before you look to blame him for one more thing.

You are both stuck. Neither wants to budge.

I really think a separation is the right way to go. You BOTH need real jobs. Anything. You both have too much free time to wallow in.

B&TS is either depressed because he knows he has to be honest or he loses everything, and he might lose it all anyway... Or he is just trying to drag this out as long as possible for nobody knows what reason.

Eh. I think LWC won't be able to get over this and honestly, I don't think she should. Forgive him and move on is my final opinion.

You can't resolve these things. Too much damage. No reason to trust. Neither want to fix themselves. It is all about what the other won't do.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I understand that I need to take responsibility for myself and I also realize we are locked in a toxic stuggle that reinforces BOTH of our unresolved issues.

I get it. I know we need to separate. I know we cannot live together anymore. I am trying and begging for this change and he is blocking it from happening by stonewalling while we lose everything.

I dont want to blame him anymore. I realize he doesnt want to be married and I release him.

HE WONT DO IT

I really just want a chance to have a normal day and look for work in my field. 

As I said before, he has money to do this and refuses to. He is forcing the issue to an ugly, destructive end.

I really want to move forward out of all this misery.

I just need help getting to a sane daily routine and I am at the point now of really going back to work and see how much he is holding me back.

I wish more than anything to just be free of it.

I give up.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Him getting unemployment and having a business is concerning to me.
> 
> Him getting unemployment and not looking for work is probably against the rules, too.
> 
> ...


Why do you say this when I have spent all this time doing everything I can to change MYSELF, not him, ME. My situation?

He is regressing and going further into withdrawal.

Its an awful situation.

I am not NEEDING him to do anything except stop causing so many problems on a daily basis.

If he moved out tomorrow, I wouldn't have to constantly deal with money, communication and control problems.

It would make a huge difference in my life if he would just get off the fracking fence and knock this crap off or leave.

I gotta go make dinner for my sister, I am at my moms house.

I just want a normal day, maybe a normal week, its really a lot to ask and I am concerned.

I am just trying to make it.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I get it, I need to be working. I would love to be working and not dealing with this crap.
> 
> *He* has money, *he *has his own business AND gets unemployment, *he *has enough to move out and get a bachelor pad and have as many girls as *he *wants and *he *doesn't even have to get a job!
> 
> ...


Do you see up above how many times you say the word "He"? That is my clue that you want HIM to do the changing. Nowhere in that "statement" above do you talk about YOU or your own choices. 

And see in red? You say you are "the dependent wife" but you won't make a move to make yourself INdependent. And don't tell me you've done everything, because when I was in a physically abusive relationship, I *found the way* to leave even though I was a SAHM and lost my home, my employment, and my husband all in one week!! 

See where you say you want him to "help you move out"? Why should he? In a weird way he has it made in the shade! He has a built in person to blame for all his troubles! It couldn't possibly be him, so he can avoid looking at himself for forever because you won't leave. 

LWC, let's reword your entire "statement" above and take the focus off HIM and put the focus on YOU:

_I do not have my own money, I do not have my own business or unemployment, I do not have the resources to take everything with me and also rent an apartment, I do not even have a job!

I choose to stay dependent so I don't have to move by myself. I choose to stay so I don't have to look for a job and be rejected. I choose to stay so I can blame him for my choices. I choose to not start my own work-at-home business because it might fail and I'm afraid. 

I refuse to move on because in a really sick, weird way the current setup works for me. I don't have to do anything and yet none of my problems are "my fault." I don't have to be afraid, I don't have to take risks, and I don't have to be responsible for my own actions--I can always blame him for the way I behave. I can blame, threaten and behave badly and still portrait myself as the poor victim. I am choosing to not get resources of my own because if I do, I'd have no more excuse for not growing and acting maturely. 

I DON'T REALLY WANT OFF THE ROLLERCOASTER_

When you really, truly and honestly want off the rollercoaster, you will *find a way.* There will be no force in the universe that can stop you. You will stop threatening and do.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

:iagree:


vi_bride04 said:


> LWC - Since your WH doesn't want to draw up a separation agreement, why don't you do it? What is stopping you from you putting a pen to paper and writing it out?


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: QFT!!!! (Quoted For Truth!)


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I really am trying to change things. I got so frustrated I threaten to take one of his prize guitars in and sell it just so I can have enough money to move out.

Then he takes it in to hock and uses the money to pay bills. So now I have no access to do this EVEN THOUGH I PAID FOR IT. He says, I dont care you are not selling it, then shuts down for days.

He issues orders and then shuts down.

Please stop telling me I need this, that I dont want change, that I love being a victim or anything else.

I have worked hard. I want and need this to change.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

affaircare said:


> :iagree:
> 
> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: Qft!!!! (quoted for truth!)


i have done this


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Gang, I have an idea. Let's stop going round and round. Let's discuss one thing that needs to be done. Get it done. Move on to the next thing.

I think money is number one.

Half is hers.

He must xfer half the money he has - cash, paypal, checking, whatever, to her immediately. She must take half the money each month afterward. She pays half the bills.

She moves out.

No crap about jobs. If he has money she has money.

Period.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Trust me, I do not need this anymore and understand I need to take responsibility for myself. I get it. 

You just dont understand.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

When did that happen?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Gang, I have an idea. Let's stop going round and round. Let's discuss one thing that needs to be done. Get it done. Move on to the next thing.
> 
> I think money is number one.
> 
> ...


This is the problem. I have sat down and gone over all the bills and worked out a plan. He set up a joint account and is supposed to transfer money in every week to cover all the household expenses.

He sits down and agrees and then doesn't do it. Or he does it till he gets angry and withdraws for days and refuses to participate in our life in any way.

I would love to solve this problem. I have tried. I have done all you have suggested and more.

Now, all I want is to go back to work and magically, we are broke.

I am really trying, really, I dont love this at all, I really need to make money again.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> When did that happen?


What, the money thing? In June.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am trying. I can see that I am going to be responsible for all these bills and I dont even know the amounts he owes on some of these accounts.

I get it. He's checked out, this is all going to fall on me and I don't want to have to depend on him anymore.

If I could work for just a little while I could get out from under all of this and so could he.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I really just want a chance to have a normal day and look for work in my field.


Great. Get in your car, drive to your library, sit down at one of the computers, and start applying.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> When you really, truly and honestly want off the rollercoaster, *you will *find a way.* There will be no force in the universe that can stop you.* You will stop threatening and do.


:iagree: 

Look at LFC as an example. She is getting out and I think a SAHM and has a 2yr old. I'm sure there are other stories around TAM you can read for inspiration.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

How is the UI delivered? 

You have access to paypal. Take half.

You have access to the joint account. Take half.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> i have done this


Great. Take the agreement to your lawyer, take it to your mother so she can give it to HER lawyer, or take it to UnitedWay and let them help you get moved out.

Or don't.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> This is the problem. I have sat down and gone over all the bills and worked out a plan. He set up a joint account and is supposed to transfer money in every week to cover all the household expenses.
> 
> *FORGET the joint account. Get him to put you on every account he has so you have access to it. That is what we mean by getting you access to the money. If you do not have access to the non joint accounts, he is not giving you access to money.*
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

clipclop2 said:


> He must xfer half the money he has - cash, paypal, checking, whatever, to her immediately. She must take half the money each month afterward. She pays half the bills..


Agree except for one thing: HE doesn't have to transfer half the money. She now says she has access to it. So SHE needs to transfer half the money, just as I explained to her to do so: every day, go into the accounts and start moving half of each deposit into another account. 

This doesn't require him. All that does is give her another excuse why she can't leave, because he won't 'let' her.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He sits down and agrees and then doesn't do it. Or he does it till he gets angry and withdraws for days and refuses to participate in our life in any way.
> 
> I would love to solve this problem. I have tried. I have done all you have suggested and more.


Really? You went into the accounts and withdrew half of the amount of each deposit, several times a day, at least up to the amount of half of his monthly disability?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I really need to make money again.


McDonalds is always hiring. Always.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

As I have mentioned before, I had two young daughters and no job - SAHM for many years. I divorced, took over control of everything I could and got a job in my original field. Second interview landed I went on. I moved out of state for the job. 

Maybe if LWC could realize that others have done more with less she would get that being a victim is her choice and realize that nobody is impressed with a victim.

Why does she think her husband doesn't follow through? Why should he? It isn't like she is going to do anything about it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LWC, we're not beating up on you cos we like it. We're pushing because, now that we've seen BTS isn't going to do the work you've asked him to do, we have changed focus onto getting YOU to get off the damn pot and fix your life. You are stuck in a rut that few of us can even fathom, of your own making, and only YOU have the power to get you out of it.

How about you stop defending yourself to us and instead answer what, exactly, you are doing, this day and every day, hour by hour, so we can look at it and help you view it in a different light and see new choices that will get you what you want? You're too enmeshed to be able to see anything, that's clear. Let us show you the way out.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Why does she think her husband doesn't follow through? Why should he? * It isn't like she is going to do anything about it.*


And that, right there is why B&T only gives lip service and never follows through with actions. B/c he KNOWS 100% that LWC is not going to leave or lay down any consequences other than yelling or silent treatment. 

And well, those aren't really consequences, as he can just ignore her and go on with his life and whatever he does with his porn girls. He doesn't have to go through the financial crap of divorce or dividing assets. He can sleep all day, have dinner cooked for him, chores around the house done for him...doesn't even have to lift a finger. 

Why would he willingly give up his cake eating lifestyle? He doesn't care how LWC feels as long as his life isn't interrupted.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

turnera said:


> *LWC, we're not beating up on you cos we like it. We're pushing because, now that we've seen BTS isn't going to do the work you've asked him to do, we have changed focus onto getting YOU to get off the damn pot and fix your life. *You are stuck in a rut that few of us can even fathom, of your own making, and only YOU have the power to get you out of it.
> 
> How about you stop defending yourself to us and instead answer what, exactly, you are doing, this day and every day, hour by hour, so we can look at it and help you view it in a different light and see new choices that will get you what you want? You're too enmeshed to be able to see anything, that's clear. Let us show you the way out.


Yes, please know we are not beating you up. Alot of us have been in abusive relationships and are trying to get you out of that toxic environment. We know what its like to feel how you do dealing with passive aggressive behavior. The tit for tat dynamic. Everything you describe most of us HAVE BEEN THERE and have gotten out. So we know its possible to escape.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The thing is, he is trapped too. But he is also too afraid to make one of two steps forward. Either fess up and fix things or, admit he doesn't want to and move on like a man.

Instead we live in Wallowlandville Town.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LWC, you don't have any kids still at home, right?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Look, I am sorry, he lies to mme about everything, he knowingly witholds assets and information and then mismanages all the money. He never transfers money into the joint account for anything. 

It is hard to do things without support or communication. He says everything is fine when we are falling off a cliff, financially, he's always making deals on the side and I never know how much cash is on hand. I cant just transfer half the money out of the accounts even though I have access because as I have said before, he will say I am taking money he needs for bills, even though I have no idea when these payments will be clearing the accounts or anything else.

Its very hard to live this way.

So I GAVE UP and started realizing I need to get my act together and get back to work. I worked very hard to overcome lots of things I COULD CHANGE and focused on my own goals and getting back to work in my field.

Now I can see that I am in false R and he has just continued on doing whatever he wants and what I dont know wont hurt me kind of attitude.

Well, it is hurting me. I can see there are maxed out cards I have never used. He comes here and says we used them for expenses, but I have never used that account, nor do I have access to it.

I also see that he has paypal bill me later payments he is making. I have no idea what for or how much they are. I can see that I am just being lied to openly or by omission and I am responsible for all of this mess - or at least half of this financial mess- when we separate.

I know what LFC is going through and she still is being manipulated every day by her H and I dont know how she does it.

I can see it is a downward spiral and we are both responsible here, but I am doing my part, MORE than I should, just to make it through this. 

I can see it needs to change.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

He tells you what the bills are and you pay them with what you took.

C'Mon. This is very simple stuff.

I will not address another one of your excuses.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

I know your sister is out of town, but does she have a spare room or a couch in the basement? Would she let you stay there for awhile, even for a couple of days to catch your breath? I suspect you don't want to "bother her" while she's vacationing or whatever she's doing, but if the roles were reversed and her marriage was in crisis, wouldn't you want her to call you in such an "emergency" if you had room for her in your home? Wouldn't you be upset if you found out later that she DIDN'T call you in her time of need?

Not wanting to "bother" her doesn't seem to be a good reason not to ask her, unless you two aren't close.

You might be able to pursue your job hunt better from a place that's not filled with tension, since the house you share with your husband seems to cause you a great deal of anxiety, even when he's there sleeping all day. As has been mentioned by others, it's a toxic environment. You need to be out of there for now, no matter what ultimately ends up happening with your marriage. Neither one of you can think straight or behave rationally. Living hand to mouth, hocking guitars, sleeping all day, not speaking for days, getting gas money from Mom, being relieved to find $10 left for you to get by on for the day - that's nuts to allow this to continue when you have highly in-demand computer skills. You don't have to live like this, but you do. Get out of there and get a job. A lot of people looking for work would kill to have your skills.

We're talking with a "tough love" tone now only because we care.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

SO why don't you get the statements for the bills? Why continue taking his word for it? Why do you not investigate things further? 

Are the credit cards in your name as well or just his? 

You know any debt that has been acquired through the marriage is your responsibility too, right? If I was you I would be all over finding out what is EXACTLY going on. Do some digging, get to the bottom of things instead of taking his word for it. Being his wife you have alot more power to find out information from utilities, the landlord, car payments, etc than you realize. 

Are you that scared of his anger? Why do you not dig until you find the truth??


----------



## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

turnera said:


> LWC, you don't have any kids still at home, right?


There are no kids at home.


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am trying to do the best I can without causing damage to either one of us. I dont want to be a b!tch and empty half the accounts out because he has utilities pending and shipments going out, etc.

I am trying to do this with as little pain as possible.

I just want to go back to working on projects and having some sanity in my financial life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I cant just transfer half the money out of the accounts even though I have access *because *as I have said before, *he will say *I am taking money he needs for bills


You can't...because he will SAY something?

LWC, you're an adult, not his child.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am trying to do the best I can without causing damage to either one of us. I dont want to be a b!tch and empty half the accounts out* because he has utilities pending and shipments going out, etc.*
> 
> I am trying to do this with as little pain as possible.
> 
> I just want to go back to working on projects and having some sanity in my financial life.


How do you know he has things pending? Have you seen actual statements? Do you see shipping receipts? Or do you just take his word for it.

Utilities and re-occurring monthly bills are easy enough to setup on a spreadsheet with the dates they are due or coming out of the account so both of you can be informed. My ex and I had a Google doc setup that we could access from any computer or phone to make sure we are on the same page. Why can't you setup something like that instead of taking his word for things?

There are solutions to everything you describe you are having problems with in regards to the financial situation.


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> You can't...because he will SAY something?
> 
> LWC, you're an adult, not his child.


I know.

I cant because he will get mad and then go silent for days and I have already explained what life is like then.


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> How do you know he has things pending? Have you seen actual statements? Do you see shipping receipts? Or do you just take his word for it.
> 
> Utilities and re-occurring monthly bills are easy enough to setup on a spreadsheet with the dates they are due or coming out of the account so both of you can be informed. My ex and I had a Google doc setup that we could access from any computer or phone to make sure we are on the same page. Why can't you setup something like that instead of taking his word for things?
> 
> There are solutions to everything you describe you are having problems with in regards to the financial situation.


I see a flurry of activity all the time. Its too much to get a handle on without cooperation from him.

I am just trying to get a job right now before I lose everything.

I know you are right there are solutions, but he wont work with me, so its very difficult.

I am exhausted trying to keep up with everything and he is just going to come on here and have an excuse for everything.

Like I said, I give up. 

Right now, I am just trying to get through each day to make things OK so I can get back to work.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I know.
> 
> *I cant because he will get mad *and then go silent for days and I have already explained what life is like then.


If you are that scared of him and his anger, please get into a womans shelter ASAP.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> If you are that scared of him and his anger, please get into a womans shelter ASAP.


I am not scared. I am frustrated and exhausted. I am tired of having to go without any resources because he wants to check out of life.

I simply need him to work with me in R or work out a separation.

Then I need to get back to work and a regular routine and get back into IC.

I really had hoped he would do the same but I am not counting on it happening anymore.

All this has helped me to see I really need to take responsibility for my situation.

Thank you for trying to help me.


----------



## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

The utilities are in your name, right? If he is going to control all the money switch those to his name. If they dont get paid it will affect your credit. With the lies he constantly tells, how do you even know things are getting paid?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It's very hard, I know. You are spinning your wheels and your heart has been broken. Your determination that the reconciliation is a false one is still relatively fresh, so you haven't made the mental transition from 'us' to 'you.'

It sounds like it's really, really time to do that, though. Take that ultimate cleansing breath and admit that it's just you now. It's forward focus on getting yourself out and independent. If you have to do it in baby steps, so be it, but no more focus on how he is holding you or the reconciliation back. Make a real plan - a day-to-day plan for how you will extract yourself. It could be a one-month plan or a 6-month plan. It doesn't matter, as long as you decide to stop the active mourning of your marriage.

If you are fed up, wrung out, done, then force yourself to make peace with that and take the steps to move on. He doesn't have you chained to the wall.

(And before you post again about how impossible it is, it seems clear to me that the people on this thread have faced some very dire situations. I supported my siblings, one with mental illness, on a poverty income while I was in grad school. And that was just one of the 'highlights' of my life. I think many of us understand what it means to feel desperate.)


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I know.
> 
> I cant because he will get mad and then go silent for days and I have already explained what life is like then.


So?

If life is so bad like that, then move out. Ask your family for help. Look for a shelter.

This is a very weak reason to NOT do what you need to do.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I also see that he has paypal bill me later payments he is making. I have no idea what for or how much they are. I can see that I am just being lied to openly or by omission and I am responsible for all of this mess - or at least half of this financial mess- when we separate.
> .


This thread is getting crazy. I'm not at all sure that you are responsible for any part of the financial mess. The simple fact is that your husband is damaged and that damage has damaged you. You need professional help. I don't know where you live, but it is likely that there is some social organization nearby that can help you.

You also need to get divorced. For that you will need a lawyer. Again you may be eligible for either help or advice from a local social organization.

You simply MUST move yourself off dead zero. If nothing else move in with one of your sisters while you do these things. Do not wait until Mr. Wonderful does things for you. He won't. And he's not afraid of you taking the initiative because you won't.

Perfect stalemate with probable horrible consequences further down the road.

You MUST get help and you MUST get legal advice. Do NOT delay.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I see a flurry of activity all the time. Its too much to get a handle on without cooperation from him.


Bullshyte.

What else are you doing? Spend 15 minutes every hour looking online at the bank/card accounts and put everything into a spreadsheet.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I simply need him to work with me in R or work out a separation.


No, you don't.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

alte Dame said:


> And before you post again about how impossible it is, it seems clear to me that the people on this thread have faced some very dire situations. I supported my siblings, one with mental illness, on a poverty income while I was in grad school. And that was just one of the 'highlights' of my life. I think many of us understand what it means to feel desperate.)


My mother sold our house and disappeared the week I graduated high school. I had less than a week to scramble enough money to put down on an apartment and find a full-time job to pay for it, my food, my gas, my utilities, everything else. But I did it (while dealing with an abusive boyfriend), by focusing. I had ONE TASK to accomplish - fix my money situation.

You are in the same boat. If you're really serious about leaving.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Lots of people move out of the marital home and "work out a separation" AFTER they've moved out. You don't "need him" to do anything in order for you to proceed with getting out of there (for a few days or forever), or with getting employment.

Telling yourself that you need him to do anything just continues to keep you stuck.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I took everyones advice in the last few months. I got my lic back, got a car, got some clothes for work, got healthy and lost 30 lbs and got my portfolio together.

This thread was to post to my H because he said he wanted to R and get into counselling and get some advice here.

I DIDNT KNOW a lot of what I discovered in the last month. I was being lied to and then he checked out.

I am trying.

I have worked all this time like alte dame said, and got a plan together. I changed what I could change and then ran into a brick wall.

I see that my situation is untenable. I didnt see that before. I see that now. I am doing the best I can do. 

I am not going to freak out anymore.

Everyone says calm down and take care of yourself and do what YOU can do.

So I have. And I keep trying.


----------



## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It's normal and OK to freak out if it doesn't get you stuck. It doesn't seem like your WH is using this opportunity to get your R on track, so you have to regroup yet again. We get it and are pushing hard to help you not spin your wheels in fruitless frustration.

(I think it's both a blessing and a curse that your children are grown. When they're small, it's motivating to do the healthy thing. Both of my children were born very premature - I had had cancer surgery (my soap opera life...) - and it was a minute-by-minute torture in the NICU for months and months where I didn't know if the baby would survive. I wanted to scream and scream and scream, but I couldn't because I had to hold it together for the child. You, LWC, have to hold it together for yourself, no less worthy goal, imo.)


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

alte my first dd was born preemie also, waited months for her to come home and prayed for her to survive. i was 17.

she made it, and is strong, happy and healthy today finishing her grad work far away from home. i miss her.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I just want to say thank you again for everyone who has tried to help me and also help my husband.

I want to say thank you to affaircare for the very thoughtful post and I have taken her advice many times, having days to change the furniture, have forgiveness ceremonies, take time to meet my own needs and give space, I agree I am very far away from who I was just a few short years ago.

I do understand things need to change. I am working hard every day, steady eyes on the goal of being emotionally and financially independent, able to effect change on my own.

I dont think it was wrong to pool my life with my H and try to build a life in my marriage with him. I have done many things to help him achieve his goals and continue on in composition, as I have said many times, he is very gifted and it is a real shame that he has withdrawn to such an unhealthy degree. His problems really seem to be taking over him now and he has really been a BEAR to live with or deal with.

I hope he can get back to the man I know he is inside.

As I have said previously in the sex history post, something went wrong a while back, and it has never been repaired.

Just being away from the house and cooking with my mom has really calmed me down today.

The tension in the house is unmanageable. Its hard to see so many obvious problems and damage and have someone just tell you everything is fine.

Its really not fine at all.

I'll get there. I can do this.

Don't give up on me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

{{{LWC}}}

Long, tough, unexpected day, huh?


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Just being away from the house and cooking with my mom has really calmed me down today.
> 
> The tension in the house is unmanageable.


This is why I've been wondering why you don't call your sister about possibly sleeping at her place - you haven't said why. Are you not close? You don't have to "live" there, just have a place of peace to go to for sleep, and maybe have breakfast and morning coffee in a house where you can't cut the tension with a knife. Then, refreshed, go back to your house if you need to get on the computer for awhile to work on your job hunt. (But I hope you can get what you need OFF that computer as soon as possible: can you get some of the money you have access to and buy an external hard drive - I think that's what you call it - to put all the important stuff that you can't fit on your laptop.)


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband*



LostWifeCrushed said:


> What, the money thing? In June.


I would like to ask you to provide that kind of information when you share these stories.

You keep building your case against him and I don't know if it happened yesterday or 3 years ago.

I would really also prefer that you stop sharing the old stories. I am already fully convinced he has been a person you should divorce based on things from before.

If you are going to stay with him, stay contemporary. What is going now?


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

PS. I'm not giving up on you...

Or your lunk head husband.

Just no more bull.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

This particular podcast episode has been helpful to me:



http://www.aquietmind.com/2009/06/08/what-are-you-willing-to-give-up-to-feel-peace-right-now/


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> See_Listen_Love, I think you meant well. But please try to understand that many people find the use of porn offensive, for various reasons. So in general I think you should be cautious in suggesting its use to people. And in LWC's situation in particular, the very idea of incorporating porn into a plan for them going forward is probably a trigger for her because for her husband, porn escalated to live web cams (she hopes nothing worse than that, but evidence was destroyed, and that has added to her anxiety). Also, his use of porn became a serious problem that almost got her in big trouble when he used a computer of hers connected to her university.


That is the reason to allow porn sites openly, as to limit the addictions and damage to a known area, also for her rest of mind. To prevent him from removing evidence and hiding and thus creating more anxiety.

Porn itself is not the problem, it is the addiction imho.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I get it, I need to be working. I would love to be working and not dealing with this crap.
> 
> He *has* money, he has his own business AND gets unemployment, he has enough to move out and get a bachelor pad and have as many girls as he wants and he doesn't even have to get a job!
> 
> ...


Then listen to Turnera,

He is giving you medicine like a child that HAS to take the medicine to get better.

Do it.

_Btw, I think B&T is really broke, very broke. He has no money, he is living on credit._


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I really am trying to change things. I got so frustrated I threaten to take one of his prize guitars in and sell it just so I can have enough money to move out.
> 
> Then he takes it in to hock and uses the money to pay bills. So now I have no access to do this EVEN THOUGH I PAID FOR IT. He says, I dont care you are not selling it, then shuts down for days.
> 
> ...


He may be addicted to porn and in financial trouble, but you are addicted to drama. You react in the wrong way to all the good suggestions you get. Your holding on to an illusional world looks like you have a mental problem also. After solving the biggest problems, or maybe while, go see a doctor.

For now: You want rest? Then follow the advise.


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> He may be addicted to porn and in financial trouble, but you are addicted to drama. You react in the wrong way to all the good suggestions you get. Your holding on to an illusional world looks like you have a mental problem also. After solving the biggest problems, or maybe while, go see a doctor.
> 
> For now: You want rest? Then follow the advise.


What advice are you talking about? Divorce? Porn? Everyone is telling me to do something different.

I think I already said I want this rollercoaster to end, start taking responsibility for myself emotionally and financially and get back into IC. 

I cant solve problems with someone who wont speak to me. So I am trying the best on my own.

I am not sure why people keep jumping on me.

I am doing the best I can.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am trying to do the best I can without causing damage to either one of us. I dont want to be a b!tch and empty half the accounts out because he has utilities pending and shipments going out, etc.
> 
> I am trying to do this with as little pain as possible.
> 
> I just want to go back to working on projects and having some sanity in my financial life.


This is SO Wrong thinking!

Illusionary!

All those poster doing their best for you and then this!!


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> That is the reason to allow porn sites openly, as to limit the addictions and damage to a known area, also for her rest of mind. To prevent him from removing evidence and hiding and thus creating more anxiety.
> 
> Porn itself is not the problem, it is the addiction imho.


Porn is a big problem for my husband. I could go into a million stories about how this has affected him negatively, but since you are pro porn I dont think you would understand. Please stop suggesting this.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> This is SO Wrong thinking!
> 
> Illusionary!
> 
> All those poster doing their best for you and then this!!


To tell me what, to ruin his life? To go all holy hell b!tch mode on him and not even talk about how to do this without losing everything? 

I am doing the best I can.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> This is SO Wrong thinking!
> 
> Illusionary!
> 
> All those poster doing their best for you and then this!!


What is wrong with taking financial responsibility for myself ?


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> Then listen to Turnera,
> 
> He is giving you medicine like a child that HAS to take the medicine to get better.
> 
> ...


Turnera told me to get a job and stop looking to my H for support. Solve my problem on my own and stop needing/expecting him to do it for me.

*Btw, I think B&T is really broke, very broke. He has no money, he is living on credit.*

I wouldn't know that because he doesn't talk to me about money, and I didnt KNOW he had a credit card that he was living on.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

LWC, I don't agree with the pornadvice but you have to admit you are addicted to drama.

This is why I and many of us tell you two to split for a while.

You have no idea what normal feels like but you are afraid to leave and find out.

The anxiety you feel is what you are use to. If you lived without it for a while you would have to admit what is real and what isn't and you could no longer use anxiety paralysis as an excuse.

That is why you dont leave.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> LWC, I don't agree with the pornadvice but you have to admit you are addicted to drama.
> 
> This is why I and many of us tell you two to split for a while.
> 
> ...


clipclop, i know you dont want old stories, but I have already left TWICE and had to rebuild my life from the SAME problems.

I know how to do it and I know when I leave this house there is no coming back for me.

Thats just where I am at.

When dday happened, yes 2 years ago, i was devastated because i thought we had overcome these problems....i felt like my whole marriage had been a lie.

Now, that I JUST found out I have been in false R? there is no reason to come back again if we cant work it out.

I have split from him before and we worked it out and came back together. Why would I do this again? He either addresses the issues or he doesn't.

For me? Coming back later is not an option. YES it is a restriction I am imposing on myself because it would just be a waste of everyones time.

I really would like to focus on getting a job and getting into IC.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> What advice are you talking about? Divorce? Porn? Everyone is telling me to do something different.
> 
> I think I already said I want this rollercoaster to end, start taking responsibility for myself emotionally and financially and get back into IC.
> 
> ...


No, you don't. Many posters give about the same advise. You just keep repeating yourself in complaints. You are stuck in your own misery.

Like


> 'I cant solve problems with someone who wont speak to me.'


That is a useless excuse that holds you down.

You can do less then you could, no problem. But take these steps to get half of the finances dumped on your own account. Or in your pocket. Take the steps to have a place with your mother or sister to rest and recover. Go back to 'his' place to do some work on the situation if you need. But probably you can do all via the internet.
Go work on getting a quick job and then on a better paying job.

All this has been extensively advised by others.

You just don't react to that. You react to him, to the misery, to all problems. 

Start acting to solutions.


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## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

Lwc

You are so focused on him. Is he focused on you? Is he thinking of you and if you'll be mad? Does he take you into consideration and is he looking out for your best interests?

Time to focus on you. It is half your money and half your debt. Time to take care of yourself and who cares if he's mad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Ok.so if you leave you don't go back.

That's established. No need to discuss it further.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

looking for clarity said:


> Lwc
> 
> You are so focused on him. Is he focused on you? Is he thinking of you and if you'll be mad? Does he take you into consideration and is he looking out for your best interests?
> 
> ...


Thanks LFC for writing to me. I know I need to focus on fixing my own issues and trying the best I can.

I hope you are doing OK. I hope you got to take that trip or are still planning to take that trip, and I hope your son is doing well also.

I will take your advice and focus on what I can do.

Please take care.

PEACE TO YOU.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> No, you don't. Many posters give about the same advise. You just keep repeating yourself in complaints. You are stuck in your own misery.
> 
> Like That is a useless excuse that holds you down.
> 
> ...


You dont seem to understand. If I take half the money, we both lose everything. There will be no "his house" to come back to. It will be the final nail in the coffin of our life together. It will be the death blow that kills our marriage.

You just said you thought he was broke yet your advice is to empty the bank account?

There is no coming back from that


----------



## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

Thanks

But please don't repeat my mistake.

HE IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. Things will not get magically better on their own. You have to change to get a different result.

Peace to you and I am taking that trip and my son is happy and cute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

looking for clarity said:


> Thanks
> 
> But please don't repeat my mistake.
> 
> ...


Thanks clarity


----------



## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

Lwc

Or he wakes up and stops taking you for granted and you both get real. Quite frankly he sounds like an ahole and why are you trying to save a marriage with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

My husband wasn't going to change. I filed for divorce and now he is willing to do everything I have always wanted him too, even though we're not reconciling. 

Go on and jump. You might like the falling : )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> You dont seem to understand. If I take half the money, we both lose everything. There will be no "his house" to come back to. It will be the final nail in the coffin of our life together. It will be the death blow that kills our marriage.
> 
> You just said you thought he was broke yet your advice is to empty the bank account?
> 
> There is no coming back from that


I say get your hands on half on the Incoming Cash. That should be your part of the situation. Especially since you gave examples of having almost no money at all given by him, any judge will understand you need money for the household. I am looking at this from a legal perspective here.

Get your part of te income streams, so you can get yourself into safety, into a job, into separation. That is cash at hand you need to get, to keep living.

The total of your bankaccounts and credit cards, his 'deals' etc. is pointing to a total broke and worse situation.
That will be dealt with later. 

His so called 'business' is of no matter to you anymore.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Don't bother trying to talk to her about this. She loves telling us we dont get it. If we stop giving her an argument she will have less an excuse for not doing what needs to be done!


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

I want to mention that I think B&T is not alone responsible for the situation. LWC displays such a dramatic misery of reasoning that I feel bad for his part of the marriage.

They got themselves into this, I see a shared responsibility.

Getting out is now a matter of LWC maybe following advice to get in a better place, and B&T still sticking his head upon his **s.

B&T, for who are you still holding up this image of 'all is well', it is only her 'complaining' that is the problem?

I think the only one fooled by you is yourself.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I thought what needs to be done is taking responsibility for myself and stop focusing on my marriage problems. Is that not right? 

I am confused.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I want to mention that I think B&T is not alone responsible for the situation. LWC displays such a dramatic misery of reasoning that I feel bad for his part of the marriage.
> 
> They got themselves into this, I see a shared responsibility.
> 
> ...


Well yesterday you said the problem was with him. So I am not sure what is going on anymore.

I dont see him on here posting about how he needs to get a job and get into IC.

I have said this and I believe its true.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Don't bother trying to talk to her about this. She loves telling us we dont get it. If we stop giving her an argument she will have less an excuse for not doing what needs to be done!


I am going to say to anyone who suggests porn is a solution in my situation doesnt get it


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

You are exasperating.

He is a problem to overcome.

You are what is preventing the problem from being overcome.

You aren't confused. You are deliberately being just like you say your husband is.

Let me know when you are ready to stop being dishonest and are ready to do the extremely simple things you need to do to get out from under this marriage.

The emotions are intense. The actions are ridiculously simple. My 12 could do them. And my 19 YO already would have.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> You are exasperating.
> 
> He is a problem to overcome.
> 
> ...


How am I not being honest? So, I need to divorce and if I dont then its my own fault if I suffer?

Maybe everyone thinks I am addicted to drama and have mental problems because no sane person would live in these conditions, now I am being told a 12 year old could figure it out but I cant?

I dont understand, is the consensus now that I am mentally deficient? I have admitted I need help and advice and therapy, I am trying to do the right thing. I wouldnt be here if I thought I had all the answers.

What the hell?

My H isnt even here posting tonight, but I am, taking all the heat. Trying to express the frustration and trying to figure all this out on my own. But now, I cant do anything right.

Do you really need to tell me I am at the emotional breaking point and I am exasperating? Don't you think I am already aware of this?

He doesnt even show up here or answer anything, I try to answer everything I can, _but believe this_ he is reading every word you say....

*Porn is understandable and allowed and my wife is the problem.*

My husband will sleep well tonight believing he has been vindicated.


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## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

Ok lwc, what would you like this group to say?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> To tell me what, to ruin his life? *To go all holy hell b!tch mode on him* and not even talk about how to do this without losing everything?
> 
> I am doing the best I can.


LWC, this is your ENTIRE PROBLEM. 

You don't WANT to leave him. You just want HIM to be DIFFERENT so you can stay.

You equate standing up for yourself and fixing YOUR situation with ruining HIS situation. Big difference. Just because you leave a man doesn't mean you're a holy hell b!tch. But you're too deep into being an abuse victim to be able to see it. All you want is to get to stay with him.

So you are going to sabotage every single suggestion thrown your way to help you move out BECAUSE IT IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT.

Until you're honest with yourself - and us - and admit you have no intention of leaving, you'll get a ton of advice thrown at you that doesn't help you, because it's NOT THE ADVICE YOU WANT.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> You dont seem to understand. If I take half the money, we both lose everything.


Bullshyte. You're going to lose everything anyway!

You are in a hopeless whirlpool that will end in only one way - but you either refuse or are incapable of seeing it.

You are ALREADY selling everything in your home; all that's left is what he uses to do his 'business.' Which apparently is no business, as it is putting you both into bankruptcy ANYWAY.

Stop using this excuse. It makes you look bad.

Take half the money. Pay the utilities/rent for as long as you live there. He can worry about his precious credit cards. Any other debts can sit there for YEARS before anyone comes after you; all you have to do is ignore the phone calls, like millions of other people in debt, until you get that job and can start paying them back. Using them as an excuse not to take half the money is ridiculous.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> How am I not being honest? So, I need to divorce and if I dont then its my own fault if I suffer?


Yes.

You finally get it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> *Porn is understandable and allowed and my wife is the problem.*
> 
> My husband will sleep well tonight believing he has been vindicated.


Hah. We already told you - we GAVE UP ON HIM because we have seen HE WILL NOT CHANGE.

Your only hope now is to leave him. 

So, yes, at this point, you ARE the problem. You are your OWN problem. YOU are the only person standing in the way of you moving out, in the way of you achieving ANY sort of peace.

Unless you just have no intention of moving out. All the advice we've given you in the last two days has been because we no longer believe he will do anything; thus it is up to you to SAVE YOURSELF. That is why we are pushing you to take the steps that will get you out of there. Which is what, I believe, everyone posting is trying to get you to do.

If you have access to the money, as you say, then USE it. Pay the utilities, put some aside so you can buy something to wear to work (he has no problem spending it on booze and videocams). Put some aside so you have gas money for a month and put some aside so you can have food in the pantry. Grow up (no offense) and take responsibility for your life.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

LWC,

One thing I think you can do without feeling guilty, without feeling like you have forever closed a door, without a reasonable expectation he would get mad, is to get up this morning, get yourself dressed presentably, and drive around the nearby area and stop at stores and restaurants and and anywhere else and apply for jobs in person.

Understand this would be temporary. But the amounts of money that I hear you both talking about suggest to me even minimum wage would be better for you than nothing.

You have time in your day to do this. It will not prevent you from pursuing programming work. I've worked full time this week and found time to help my wife get her resume together and a cover-letter and apply for a better job that really interests her.

Since you have a college degree (two?), go to the websites of your local school systems and find out how to apply to be a substitute teacher. Around here, the only qualification required is two years of college credit of any sort, it pays about $70/day, and there is no obligation to work any particular day so that would not interfere with pursuing programming work. (They call in the morning and ask if you can come in that day. It's expected you are not always available.)

Can you do that? Today? It is early in the morning where you are.
If you see a difficulty with that proposal, please let me know and I will try to understand.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Here's the truth. I hate to say this but you have to face the fact that this marriage has been on life support a long time. Neither one of you is going to be living in that house much longer because neither one of you can afford to live in a rental HOUSE, so I think you need to get used to that idea and sell those appliances and take HALF of whatever money there is because you need it to move FORWARD. Stop looking back. Stop thinking about his reactions or what he might say or even not say (in other words, forget worrying about the silent treatment because that only matters if you're trying to repair a marriage - and you've got to STOP that because it's getting you nowhere). 

If some day you two want to try to reconcile AFTER he's been in treatment a LONG time for his problem, go for it. But this sick dance you're in now is too dysfunctional to repair - lord knows you've tried. It just goes in circles. 

And why don't you call you sister about crashing at her place, when I BET you'd offer to help her if she was in a similar crisis and you had room for her? I don't get why you have never even answered that question!!

:scratchhead:

Only one poster suggested the porn solution, so that's off the table - nobody else has agreed with that idea; let's drop it.

We're getting exasperated with you because you're not taking the bull by the horns regarding YOU and YOUR future. You're still focused on HIM and the marriage. You need to face the facts about things you cannot control. He doesn't care about healing himself OR the marriage, and you have NO control over that, so STOP TRYING. It's pointless. You DO have control over your own future, so get busy taking care of THAT.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

turnera said:


> Unless you just have no intention of moving out. A*ll the advice we've given you in the last two days has been because we no longer believe he will do anything; thus it is up to you to SAVE YOURSELF. *That is why we are pushing you to take the steps that will get you out of there. Which is what, I believe, everyone posting is trying to get you to do.


Tunera's posts may be harsh to read but so spot on. 

The bolded part above especially. 

There is no point posting for the sake of getting your WH to "wake up" b/c he never will. If the pain he sees his wife go through every day isn't enough to get him to take action nothing will.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You could sell everything else and then give him half of it, cancel the rental, and let him know that you will BOTH be moving out at the end of February. He'll have half the cash to chart his own course, just as you will. That's about as understanding and loving as you can give him at this point.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LWC - I just want to say that the people posting on your thread have been through very similar situations. I have had the same 2x4s by tunera and alt and AffairCare since I joined. They are taking the time to post b/c they care. And they don't want to see someone go through the same type of emotional turmoil. At least, I know thats why I post on your threads. 

The state of anxiety you are living in day to day is unbearable. I know I've been there. The silent treatments, the passive agressive agree with you but then do something completely different behind your back. I think the agreeing and "yes dear, ok honey, I love you and will do anything" and then being ignored is the worst. Its so demeaning. It does truly affect your self confidence and self worth. 

It is emotional abuse. Please understand the things he does is to make you think you can't leave him. Like you can't do better than him. You don't see it now, but thats what he is doing. He is trying to leave you defenseless emotionally so you aren't strong enough to leave him. 

I see so much of the same type of emotional manipulation your WH is doing to you that my ex did to me after I realized it was false R. Even some of his responses trigger me b/c I've heard the same crap at one time or another. 

I can't remember when I got to the point of just being DONE. I mean DONE. I didn't care if he got mad or what he thought or anything. It was the most liberating feeling in the world. 

I hope you can break free soon. Its in your power. You just have to have confidence in YOU. Don't let his opinion of you or how he treats you stop you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

How about this: take a break from us, go to your library, and check out Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Lundy Bancroft. Spend the weekend reading it. Come back Monday and tell us what you think about it, and how it relates to your situation. Maybe that's a better track to take.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Is there even enough money coming in to pay the rent, utilities and needs? Do you know how much those are each month? I have been broke enough that I could honestly say I couldn't give money for gas or new clothes because the need bills took up every cent that came in. If this is your situation then I understand when you say that for you to take enough money to leave, he would likely lose the home and not be able to stay on his feet, and you don't want that because he's your husband and you love him. So it's a choice but it doesn't sound like that situation is going to change so either do it anyway or find another solution that you are more comfortable with. 

When I left my ex BF there was no money, I had to stay in a homeless shelter while pregnant until I could get back on my feet, which happened a lot quicker than if I stayed and waited for him to do it for me and no matter how hard it was, it was worth every second to be where I am now. I would probably still be waiting, 12 years later. Where do you want to be in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?
Still waiting? 
(sorry for butting in, I've been following your threads for a while)


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Nucking Futs said:


> Do you still have this music studio in the basement? Could you produce demos for local bands? And by you I mean either or both of you. It may not generate a lot of money but producing demos for locals may get you some getting by money.


Could you address this question please?


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

turnera said:


> LWC, this is your ENTIRE PROBLEM.
> 
> You don't WANT to leave him. You just want HIM to be DIFFERENT so you can stay.
> 
> ...


...Or it is could be a case of no matter how much one want something, trying to come to terms with it, it's never gonna happen, hasn't come to the acceptance of the relationship. Like trying to put a round pole into a square hole. No matter how much we want something to be, it just may not be.

We resist, and resist, until we cant resist anymore and it eventually will pushes back to us. 

Maybe start to ask yourself, what will you give up to get peace in your life, and start to do those things. Stop dealing with him, deal with yourself, what you need.((believe me, its hard, I've been coupling for 27 yrs))

I know you say you've been separated, but during that time, what did you do with the relationship then? I love my husband very much, he me, and the reality is, I know what it feels like to not know what it is that you want to do...to live w drama, and to live in limbo, of a broken relationship the past almost 3 years. To have a husband much like yours that shows signs of remorse for his bad behavior, but holds his head up high as if he's done nothing wrong...

...but these are narcissist men, their personalities to control, some do it through love, some through silence, some through guilt, the list goes on. It comes down to what we want to deal with.

Hang in there, you are lucky to have your mom and sister close by...

-sammy


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

The porn suggestion was ridiculous and no one else agrees with it. Unless your STBXH tries to use it in an argument, which will be hard to do when he's giving you the silent treatment, ignore it.

You're getting beat up because two things have become clear. The first thing is that your husband, and by extension your marriage, is a lost cause. He came on here to mess with your mind more, so he could say "see, I tried." Nothing more. He's done nothing helpful since coming on here and there's no point wasting any more time with him.

The second thing is going to seem harsh. I would ask you when you start feeling that I'm piling on and cutting you down to remember that I'm on your side and I'm trying to help you. 

Here's what I (and I suspect most people reading your thread) see as the truth: You really don't want to leave your husband. It may seem simple in the "of course I don't want to leave my husband but I know I have to" way but I'm talking at a deeper level. Your logical mind tells you that you need to leave him, but your emotional being is driving the train right now and will do anything to stay with him. That's why so many posters are getting frustrated with you. There's a disconnect in your thinking. I'll give you a few examples that have people :scratchhead:.

It's been suggested many times that you go stay with your sister, or in her place "house sitting" while she's travelling. You've rejected that suggestion every time. So far, the only reason you've given is that you've already imposed on her twice in the past and you don't want to do that again. I submit that this is not your intellect speaking, it's your emotions. I suspect you would be ashamed to admit to your sister that you need help again. You think she might say or think that you need to get your act together and solve this problem once and for all, but if that's what she thinks she's right and you know it. I don't know your particular sister, but if she's like most sisters she'd be deeply hurt to find out that you're in these straits and did not go to her. Think about that for a second. How would she feel if your husband emailed her a link to your thread and identified you as LWC. How would she feel reading that you're unwilling to go stay with her when you desperately need to get away from him?

Another example of a :scratchhead:. 


> Posters here seem to think I am begging him to stay with me, like I need his approval to feel OK or something. I don't. What I mean to say is that *when he is in silent mode (which is all the time) I can't get anything done. Nothing. Daily life stops.*





> When he dishes out the silent treatment, I DONT EXIST. I am not considered as alive or having needs of any kind. *It is impossible to look for a job under these conditions.* Its like the 6th sense and I am dead, I just dont know it yet.


You say you can't get anything done because he's hiding out in the other room giving you the silent treatment. I keep seeing this and frankly it makes no sense at all if viewed intellectually. It does make sense when viewed from the standpoint of your emotions running the show. You're so focused on him that you're incapable of action when he's not speaking to you. Your emotional side is keeping the obvious away from your intellectual side. So here's what's obvious to the rest of us that makes your responses seem so odd: you should be viewing the silent treatment and avoiding you as him trying to stay out of your way and not interrupt your train of thought so you can be on that computer doing what you need to do to get work.

One more example as long as I'm swinging this 2x4. This, by the way, is a doozy of reason being replaced with emotion. People keep telling you to sell your stuff to get enough money to put your valuables in storage and get out, but you keep responding that you can't do that because that would be it, the end, no coming back from that. He'd be broke and homeless and your marriage would be over. But that's already the case! You're not in a marriage now, you're in a mutually destructive relationship. If you don't sell your stuff and use the proceeds to escape him the two of you are going to be broke, homeless street people. You'll be huddled under an overpass with him and he'll be giving you the silent treatment while he nurses off his bottle of mad dog 20/20 or night train express.

So here's my advice: Sell the stuff and bug out. Find a job and a place to live and get your head right. Do everything you can to get yourself in the best position you can, then see where he is. If he's on the street homeless then step in and help him. If he's not, stay clear. Bear in mind that he has income from the unemployment so he'll be in better shape than you at first.

Bottom line, his problem is that he's addicted to porn but your problem is that you're addicted to him.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> Could you address this question please?


Yes nucking, I still have the studio in the basement. I am VERY hesitant to do anything more with it because my H doesnt speak to me and I am sure it will cause problems if I start trying to record bands down there.

It will be fraught with problems because it is in HIS house and I am not even named on the rental agreement anymore.

I would prefer to put my energy into something my H does not control, but thank you for suggesting it. It was a thought I had also.

Sorry if I neglected to answer this in a timely manner, I know you are trying to help with ideas and I apologize.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I seriously think you need to just get out of there. You have clearly been abused so long you are not thinking right. Your husband is not looking out for your best interest and he is not sharing the money with you because he views it as his money not yours. If you sell things to get out your not really going to hurt him. Its already a case of what is his and what is yours. He will keep abusing you as long as you let him. 

Please get out of that house. 

Clay


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So he's back to the silent treatment? How many days is it now?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Clay2013 said:


> I seriously think you need to just get out of there. You have clearly been abused so long you are not thinking right. Your husband is not looking out for your best interest and he is not sharing the money with you because he views it as his money not yours.


And because it controls you - keeps you from leaving him. He may actually escalate the longer you stay.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I really appreciate the advice. I am not upset that he is giving me the silent treatment. I am upset because when he does this, I have no resources and cant just "ignore" him. I need everyday things to live and look for work. He withdraws these things, not just his words.

I dont want to go to my sister again and ask her for help because she has helped me before for the same problems.

The reason I do not involve her in this is because he made *porn galleries of her and she saw them*. Its like he was abusing BOTH of us. YES clipclop this was a long time ago and I am bringing it up because it is relevant to my decision making.

Is that a good enough reason to not take my stupid problems to her door?

But in truth, It was actually_ RELIEVING_ to find this gallery because it wasn't incest porn or child porn. At least it was age appropriate sister fantasies, so I felt safe with him, even though he was betraying me. He was a lot safer than my father.

Yes this is all left over from me and my sister being abused by my father at a very young age.

OK, now you can all jump on me for being mentally disordered for caring about him at all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Is that a good enough reason to not take my stupid problems to her door?


Of course it's not.

Have you asked HER?

Of course you haven't. Then you'd have to leave because she'd tell you to come anyway.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We don't think you are 'mentally disordered' in the term you are thinking.

We DO think you are an abuse victim and, as such, absolutely MUST leave him before you will ever be safe, whole, or in peace again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And abuse victims ALWAYS care about their abuser.

Always.

What about getting that book I recommended today?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> So he's back to the silent treatment? How many days is it now?


2 days


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Of course it's not.
> 
> Have you asked HER?
> 
> Of course you haven't. Then you'd have to leave because she'd tell you to come anyway.


I just cannot do this to her when her life is going well. I WANT HER TO MAKE IT

It is a good reason to not involve her. The last time I did, SHE was abused by him.

And then she helped me after that.

We are very close. She KNOWS the truth about our marriage.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I dont want to go to my sister again and ask her for help because she has helped me before for the same problems.
> 
> The reason I do not involve her in this is because he made *porn galleries of her and she saw them*. Its like he was abusing BOTH of us. YES clipclop this was a long time ago and I am bringing it up because it is relevant to my decision making.
> 
> ...


I'm glad I don't know what porn galleries are. Please don't enlighten us. 

But I can figure out her image was used, which is disgusting. But no, it's not a good enough reason for you not to contact her. All the more reason: she'll certainly understand that you need to get away from him. Perhaps you fear she'll be of the opinion that you need to divorce him, and you don't want to hear that? Frankly, you NEED someone like that to be staying with. I'm even more convinced now that you need to get on the phone to her. I'm sure she'll give you exactly the kind of support you need right now to extricate yourself from this mess. Like nucking said, you're hooked on your H, so you need someone like your sister to help get you away from him. PLEASE call her!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I only said the truth because everyone thinks I should call her and wreck her life over this. I wont. He has made sure of that. My closest sibling he tried to drive a wedge between us and it didnt work. I love her so much, I dont want to call her until I am doing well and can take her out to dinner and show her I am a grown up and can solve my own problems.

I am humiliated. I want her to be proud of me and have faith in me. I dont want to bring problems to her anymore.

I know I have painted myself into this corner. 

I am trying to get out and I am just failing.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yes nucking, I still have the studio in the basement. I am VERY hesitant to do anything more with it because my H doesnt speak to me and I am sure it will cause problems if I start trying to record bands down there.
> 
> It will be fraught with problems because it is in HIS house and I am not even named on the rental agreement anymore.
> 
> ...


I have explained repeatedly and at length how you not being on the rental agreement is not a problem for you. Forget that.



> I am VERY hesitant to do anything more with it because my H doesnt speak to me and I am sure it will cause problems if I start trying to record bands down there.


He's not speaking to you, how will you know it's causing problems?

Here's an idea: Go to whatever hole he's crawled into and say "Hey, we have a recording studio, lets make a few bucks recording demos for local bands." Possible responses? "You set it up and I'll help." "You go ahead with it I'm too busy." Or no response, just continue the silent treatment. I seriously doubt he'd come out and say no, and anything but that is a yes. Not that anyone but you believes you need his permission.

Or, if you're not willing to use the resources you have to make a few bucks, sell it. Don't ask him, don't tell him, load it up in the car and take it to a music store or a pawn shop and turn it into cash you can use to bug out.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> And abuse victims ALWAYS care about their abuser.
> 
> Always.
> 
> What about getting that book I recommended today?


I will do that turnera, thank you


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I only said the truth because everyone thinks I should call her and wreck her life over this. I wont. He has made sure of that. My closest sibling he tried to drive a wedge between us and it didnt work. I love her so much, I dont want to call her until I am doing well and can take her out to dinner and show her I am a grown up and can solve my own problems.
> 
> *I am humiliated. I want her to be proud of me and have faith in me. I dont want to bring problems to her anymore.*
> 
> ...


You need to stop operating from what you want and start operating from what you need. 

I asked you this before and you didn't respond. How would your sister feel if your husband outed you to her as LWC and sent her a link to this thread? How would she feel seeing what you just posted?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

It sounds to me like your marriage has been in its death throes for a long time now. Having something die that you don't want to die is extremely painful. We hang on and on to these things, even though the pain is almost unbearable.

And why do you and your WH hang on? Because of that elusive, driving thing we call 'love.' Your WH has stated here that he loves you and that you are his soulmate. I don't think your pain could really come from much else than the feeling that you have that you still love him. When that feeling really goes, you know it and you know that you can move on. It isn't gone, though, and you can't move.

This sort of painful love can't be what it is all about, though, can it? I don't believe that the sort of destructive love that you and your WH have together is the real thing. When it hurts this much and the hurt is inflicted by the partners themselves, this can't be real love.

You are both going down with the ship. This is tragedy. I'm sorry. I think I understand how it is when you really can't seem to help yourself. The very hardest thing is to stand strong in the face of it. It's strangely easier when life gives us a fait accompli to handle. In this case, you and your WH make your own fate and neither one of you can let go.

I don't think it will get better until you take the step to get out. The financial situation makes it very difficult, but not impossible. I agree with the others that you have to accept that it's on you to change things for you.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> I have explained repeatedly and at length how you not being on the rental agreement is not a problem for you. Forget that.
> 
> He's not speaking to you, how will you know it's causing problems?
> 
> ...


nucking, I have done this, i have sold everything just to get money for a laptop and just to have money to live. I sold almost everything in the studio except the recording decks and the playback system and the PA.

Now I am down to selling the furniture, computers and appliances. He will actively try to sabotage any effort I make if I make a move to book other bands down there he will cause problems. He only ignores me because I am not making a move. As soon as I make a move? He will do everything he can to trip me up. I already know this, and this is the reason I dont make any moves. Because I want the move I make to be the right one.

Once that move is made there is no coming back, so I need it to be the right one.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

You seriously need to get to a point in your mind when you are just ready to leave. How can you really care for someone who clearly does not care for you. How much more of this can you take. Will you be here another two years just trying to get out of the house? 

You have to start putting yourself first and quit worrying about him all together. Who cares if he looses the place if you sell stuff to leave. That is his problem just like you not having money or food is yours. 

You really need to see he has already drew the line in the sand you just keep ignoring it. 

Clay


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> nucking, I have done this, i have sold everything just to get money for a laptop and just to have money to live. *I sold almost everything in the studio except the recording decks and the playback system and the PA.*
> 
> Now I am down to selling the furniture, computers and appliances. He will actively try to sabotage any effort I make if I make a move to book other bands down there he will cause problems. He only ignores me because I am not making a move. As soon as I make a move? He will do everything he can to trip me up. I already know this, and this is the reason I dont make any moves. Because I want the move I make to be the right one.
> 
> Once that move is made there is no coming back, so I need it to be the right one.


Ok, I thought you had a production setup but you don't so forget recording demos. Unless you have protools on that computer.

So let me get this straight. You've sold home appliances and computers but you have recording and pa gear in the basement? What, is that stuff sacrosanct? You can't sell it? Will he physically block you from carrying it out to the car?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He will do everything he can to trip me up. I already know this, and this is the reason I dont make any moves. Because I want the move I make to be the right one.


What is a WRONG ONE, LWC? There IS no wrong move to getting away from an abuser.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> Ok, I thought you had a production setup but you don't so forget recording demos. Unless you have protools on that computer.
> 
> So let me get this straight. You've sold home appliances and computers but you have recording and pa gear in the basement? What, is that stuff sacrosanct? You can't sell it? Will he physically block you from carrying it out to the car?


No, you have it backwards, maybe I explained it wrong. I have sold all my personal music equipment except the playback system. And yes, when I do this he breaks out of silence right away, comes down in the music room and tells me not to, tells me it is wrong, tells me it is stupid, but I did it anyway. Then I get the silent treatment for a week for selling my own stuff. I have sold everything and then said I was going to sell one of his prize gibsons to move out after I had tried everything and he was going silent.

He hocked it "to get money for bills" but I know he did this to keep me from being able to sell it.

NOW I am down to selling the furniture and appliances. This means selling things he uses daily. It will cause a HUGE fallout if I do this. I do not have time to wait around and sell these things over a few days or weeks, once its done, he will spring into action. Trust me on this.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

If you go get a job, any job, in the local economy in order to start digging yourself out, what, exactly, will he do to trip you up? Will he come to Walmart and drag you out?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I have Reason on my laptop and 2 tracking decks, its only a few hundred dollars total left down there.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

You let his words affect you way too much.

All he is doing is blowing hot air and banking on your own FEAR to paralyze you. And its working. Why are you so scared of his words?? He never backs them up with action. So just stop fearing him. 

You need to start thinking of him like the grocery store clerk. Would you really care if the clerk said you shouldn't do something? No, you wouldn't. You would think they are kinda crazy for trying to interfere with your life like that.


----------



## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> If you go get a job, any job, in the local economy in order to start digging yourself out, what, exactly, will he do to trip you up? Will he come to Walmart and drag you out?


I dont know alte... I spent 7 years at university and have 2 degrees. I really dont want to get a job at mcdonalds or wallgreens, I worked at those jobs for YEARS while I was in school. I went to school so I wouldnt have to work those jobs again. I really think I could get a tech contract if I didnt have to be in this environment.

I have never had trouble getting work before.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

LWC, 

Call your mom and your sister and tell them everything. Tell them you are moving out and taking just the clothes on your back and your laptop. Listen to what they say or suggest. Then, pack your suitcase and go, with nothing. 

Maybe they can gift you a little money for an extended stay hotel. We have one in my hometown that's a couple hundred bucks a week which is expensive but it would get you OUT! You don't need furniture to live there; you would have "the basics" (roof over the head, bed to sleep in); you could apply for emergency foodstamps and welfare, then head to the nearest foodbank for a little food right away; and from the hotel you could apply for jobs. You can apply for McDonalds job in jeans so you don't "have to" have gorgeous work attire yet. 

Then you work part time from McD's and part time looking for your dream job. When the day comes that you LAND a nice, full-time, professional job in your field, you tell McD's that you quit effective "next Friday" and you start your new job the following Monday. Then you are on your feet. 

You could also stay with your sister (swallow your pride and do it), or stay with your mom, or crash on a girlfriend's couch, or stay with one of your grown children. 

Now I'm just brainstorming, but you can do this. Okay so you lose some furniture. It's furniture. In the course of your life, furniture will come and go.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I dont know alte... I spent 7 years at university and have 2 degrees. *I really dont want to get a job at mcdonalds or wallgreens,* I worked at those jobs for YEARS while I was in school. I went to school so I wouldnt have to work those jobs again. *I really think I could get a tech contract if I didnt have to be in this environment.*
> 
> I have never had trouble getting work before.


So, you would rather stay in the sh!itty environment and NOT get a job then work a lessor job to get yourself out of the situation so you CAN get a tech job??

See how those statements are contradictory?

I think your pride is really what is holding you back with all of this.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I dont know alte... I spent 7 years at university and have 2 degrees. *I really dont want to get a job at mcdonalds or wallgreens, I worked at those jobs for YEARS while I was in school. *I went to school so I wouldnt have to work those jobs again. I really think I could get a tech contract if I didnt have to be in this environment.
> 
> I have never had trouble getting work before.





Nucking Futs said:


> *You need to stop operating from what you want and start operating from what you need.
> *
> I asked you this before and you didn't respond. How would your sister feel if your husband outed you to her as LWC and sent her a link to this thread? How would she feel seeing what you just posted?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> You let his words affect you way too much.
> 
> All he is doing is blowing hot air and banking on your own FEAR to paralyze you. And its working. Why are you so scared of his words?? He never backs them up with action. So just stop fearing him.
> 
> You need to start thinking of him like the grocery store clerk. Would you really care if the clerk said you shouldn't do something? No, you wouldn't. You would think they are kinda crazy for trying to interfere with your life like that.


The grocery store clerk does not have control of the marital money.

I am not afraid of his words or lack thereof, its what happens when he goes silent. He withdraws all financial support and I am left hanging. How many times do i need to say this? He has been silent for 2 days now. There will be no support, money or communication for, I dont know, a few days to several weeks.

If I make a move it has to be FAST AND PERMANENT. Thats all. Thats it.

And please remember he has abandoned this thread but is still reading it.

I came home last night at 1030 came in the front door and SAW that he was reading this thread. I came in the library and he did not say anything to me. He will not say anything tomorrow. UNTIL I MAKE A MOVE

Then he will make life hell for both of us.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I have Reason on my laptop and 2 tracking decks, *its only a few hundred dollars total left down there.*


What's down there is enough to do this:



Affaircare said:


> Maybe they can gift you a little money for an *extended stay hotel.* We have one in my hometown that's a couple hundred bucks a week which is expensive but it would get you OUT! You don't need furniture to live there; you would have "the basics" (roof over the head, bed to sleep in);* you could apply for emergency foodstamps and welfare, then head to the nearest foodbank for a little food right away; and from the hotel you could apply for jobs.* You can apply for McDonalds job in jeans so you don't "have to" have gorgeous work attire yet.
> 
> Then you work part time from McD's and part time looking for your dream job. When the day comes that you LAND a nice, full-time, professional job in your field, you tell McD's that you quit effective "next Friday" and you start your new job the following Monday. Then you are on your feet.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

vi_bride04 said:


> So, you would rather stay in the sh!itty environment and NOT get a job then work a lessor job to get yourself out of the situation so you CAN get a tech job??
> 
> See how those statements are contradictory?
> 
> I think your pride is really what is holding you back with all of this.


Its not pride. She clearly is not ready to leave. If she was ready she would already be gone. None of this I can't. You don't understand. It's not that easy. 

She would be messaging us from her new place and telling us how wonderful her life is going. 

She will get there but its going to take him kicking her alot more before she gets to that point. 

Clay


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am not afraid of his words or lack thereof, its what happens when he goes silent. H*e withdraws all financial support and I am left hanging.* How many times do i need to say this? He has been silent for 2 days now. There will be no support, money or communication for, I dont know, a few days to several weeks.


That is fixed with a job at McDs or wherever. Be a cashier at Target. SOMETHING. 

If you are desperate enough to get out you will do whatever it takes. You haven't reached that point yet.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> The grocery store clerk does not have control of the marital money.


No, she has control of HER MONEY.

Big difference.

Are you leaving now to go to the library?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> He will not say anything tomorrow. UNTIL I MAKE A MOVE
> 
> Then he will make life hell for both of us.


No, he won't.

Because you WILL BE GONE.

Go get that book.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> No, she has control of HER MONEY.
> 
> Big difference.
> 
> Are you leaving now to go to the library?


OK


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I dont know alte... I spent 7 years at university and have 2 degrees. I really dont want to get a job at mcdonalds or wallgreens, I worked at those jobs for YEARS while I was in school. I went to school so I wouldnt have to work those jobs again. I really think I could get a tech contract if I didnt have to be in this environment.
> 
> I have never had trouble getting work before.


I think I knew you would respond this way. I know the pride that a hard-fought degree gives you. I have my own. I have a good career as a result, but....I also was raised to value work, any work, as well as the people who do it. You are very stuck right now and should not be above finding some work that will give you the jumpstart to get out of the hole you're in.


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## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

You sound like me when I started posting in August.

My husband was having casual sex hook ups with men and women and he was meeting with people on Craigslist. People told me not to sleep with him anymore and I thought to myself, but if I don't sleep with him, he'll leave me. What I came to understand is he left me first. He was a cake eater . He wanted his nice loving wife and the kink and he did what he wanted. He didn't really care that it hurt my feelings or that he'd promised to be faithful. So I busted him in June, again in August and again in December.

Your husband las left the marriage you think you're in. He just hasn't told you that. He is physically present but mentally checked out. He doesn't care about your reactions (he pretends too so you will shut up and not nag him) but he really doesn't. Why are you giving your all to someone who is giving nothing? Remember watch actions, don't listen to words.

The truth hurts but it also sets you free, if you let it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

So your father abused you sexually.

And you want your husband to fix everything he has done to hurt you and humiliate you with his sexual deviance.

This is probably way too simple psychology but perhaps you should be in therapy to deal with your father issues and to get away from the abuser that you invited into your life and refuse to let go.

You need him to fix this so bad you can't do anything else but hope and wallow.

He isn't a safe man. You compared him to your father, saying his porn of your sister is safer than your father was.

Are you crazy?

What kind of man does that kind of thing? The time it took for him to do it is an indication of just how sick and unsafe he is.


GET OUT NOW.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband*



LostWifeCrushed said:


> I dont know alte... I spent 7 years at university and have 2 degrees. I really dont want to get a job at mcdonalds or wallgreens, I worked at those jobs for YEARS while I was in school. I went to school so I wouldnt have to work those jobs again. I really think I could get a tech contract if I didnt have to be in this environment.
> 
> I have never had trouble getting work before.


Before isn't now.

People do what they must do. Everyone except you that is.

Do you really think you are better than those folks? 

I bet if they read this thread they would thank God they get their asses to work every day, have some money and don't live in a self-imposed prison.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I dont think I am better than anyone. I have slogged it for years and raised 2 children working crap jobs to finish school. Andyes, I have been in and out of IC.

I know I have problems, I really just want to work and try to fix my life.

The last time I was in IC I learned that I dont need to go off crying into the night without resources portraying myself as a helpless victim. I could finish my education, make a life for myself and heal. I was intelligent, not crazy, and that I had to deal with a different set of circumstances because I had been abused. But it was OK. I could do it if I worked hard and chose something better. So I did.

That I could write my own ticket now, I could be free and I could be healthy. I could do great things with my life and I was only a victim as long as I allowed myself to be. I needed to be strong and learn who I was inside and become that, even though I was tripped up along the way, others had also endured it and went on to not only survive, but to thrive.

My H's issues have brought all my previous pain forward. I am not trying to work out my daddy issues with him. I am trying to work out what he has done SEPARATE from that past. He is the one who keeps digging at my wounds and pouring salt in them.


I have been in IC since I was 6 years old talking about this crap.

I am not addicted or crazy, I am just stupid enough to think that my H actually cared enough to work out some kind of fair agreement R or D.

Please stop calling me crazy, if I wanted to hear that< i would go talk to my husband.

Turnera, I got the book you suggested and it is the story of my life. I cant figure out which profile he fits because so many of them are appropriate.

Yes I am dealing with awfully humiliating issues here. I have been the repository of blame for many years for my H. And I have worn my heart on my sleeve for you guys, trying like all get out to solve this mess.

I KNOW I need to get back into IC.

And I will do that as soon as I am able.

Thanks turnera


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I think I knew you would respond this way. I know the pride that a hard-fought degree gives you. I have my own. I have a good career as a result, but....I also was raised to value work, any work, as well as the people who do it. You are very stuck right now and should not be above finding some work that will give you the jumpstart to get out of the hole you're in.


I helped pay for college painting houses and hot tar roofing. I received a full fellowship to Duke for my Masters degree. Picking up garbage, cleaning fish, cleaning septic tanks is not above me. If I have to do those things to take care of myself and my family so be it. I worked very hard to be where I am but I am not entitled to any of it. I still sleep on the floor. It is a nice reminder to me of the fact that I am not entitled to anything.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> I helped pay for college painting houses and hot tar roofing. I received a full fellowship to Duke for my Masters degree. Picking up garbage, cleaning fish, cleaning septic tanks is not above me. If I have to do those things to take care of myself and my family so be it. I worked very hard to be where I am but I am not entitled to any of it. I still sleep on the floor. It is a nice reminder to me of the fact that I am not entitled to anything.


I worked my way through college also doing minimum wage jobs and slogging it and raising 2 kids.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Turnera, I got the book you suggested and it is the story of my life. I cant figure out which profile he fits because so many of them are appropriate.


Wow, you read fast!

Glad you got it. Hope it gives you the impetus to do what needs done. Or at the very least to give up on your husband.


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I do not think you are crazy. I think he has successfully broke you down to the point where you can not see getting out successfully. Its like we are offering you reasonable alternatives to help you get out on your own and you refuse them. You have to be ready to really take care of you. You are just not there yet. I know you want to be there but your just not. Its not a dig or to make you feel bad. We all care about you and we want you to be successful and happy. I think you really need to let go of some of these reservations you have about the jobs and staying with family to start the path of getting you back to being healthy again. 

Staying there and trying to find the job you feel you deserve will never be successful for you. Once you get it he will only do something else to destroy that for you. You have to get out so you can start your new life. 

Clay


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I worked my way through college also doing minimum wage jobs and slogging it and raising 2 kids.


Great! Then you should have no problem working at Walgreens for 2 months until you have gotten accepted at your dream job.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Wow, you read fast!
> 
> Glad you got it. Hope it gives you the impetus to do what needs done. Or at the very least to give up on your husband.


I havent read it all yet, just the profiles part, and it was VERY eye opening. I realize I will never be able to work anything out.

The problem is, I still live here and he is reading this.

My life is in a horrible place.

I hear you turnera

I hear you


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then start PMing people who will help you work up a plan to leave. He can't read those, unless you give him your phone.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am not afraid of his words or lack thereof, its what happens when he goes silent. He withdraws all financial support and I am left hanging. How many times do i need to say this? He has been silent for 2 days now. *There will be no support*, money or communication for, I dont know, a few days to several weeks.


There WILL be no support? No, there IS no financial support from him NOW. (Except for a measly $10 he left for you in the kitchen yesterday. Big of him.) It sounds like he's been charging a lot of the bills on credit cards. And you did say credit cards, PLURAL. I suspect his "support" is more like mounting debt. And you don't even know for sure.

Since you don't get much in the way of cash (except a token ten spot left for you now and then), or know much about what's going on with the family finances, I don't call that getting financial "support." You're just along for the ride. Propping him up, doing some of the drudge work, and deluding yourself that this is a "marriage" of equal partners. 

Sad to say, he hasn't treated you as a financial partner for a long time. Also sad to say, you've accepted this arrangement.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Great! Then you should have no problem working at Walgreens for 2 months until you have gotten accepted at your dream job.


turnera, i am not trying to get a dream job, just one in my field at half my old rate.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I worked my way through college also doing minimum wage jobs and slogging it and raising 2 kids.


You were able to do it then because you knew you needed to. You need to again. You'll be waiting around for him to help you forever, it won't happen and that couple $100 in stuff you do have will be gone soon and there will be nothing left. What then? What if tomorrow he goes and pawns it all himself because he knows you need it (he did it before, right)?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> turnera, i am not trying to get a dream job, just one in my field at half my old rate.


So?


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

If you can't get something in your field in the next 1-2 weeks, I hope you go get that cashier job someplace else.

Its not about a dream job or making a certain amount of money. Its about making ANY kind of money to help get you out of your situation.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Reading the book will help you understand why staying is untenable and actually HARMFUL to you. I'm not saying your H is some kind of monster, btw; just incredibly dysfunctional who gets what he wants by manipulation, intimidation, deliberate abandonment, as well as a bunch of abusive 'tactics' that work for him (such as trying to isolate you from your family).

It'll help you see that you are now so brainwashed that you feel inadequate to make such big decisions on your own. It'll help you believe, really believe, that staying is no option, that you're just delaying the inevitable. It will give you strength. 

And BTS, assuming you're reading this, we, and her family and any friends, WILL keep stepping forward and pushing her out that door. The sooner you accept that, the less of an ass you will look like to her, her family and friends, us, and well, pretty much everyone. If you don't care about her, at least care about your reputation.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I can hear his alarm going off in the other room

He keeps hitting snooze

But he will be up soon

And read all this

I can hear it now

"See? Everyone can see that you are the crazy one, You really need to get some help."

I am reading this book and I cant stop crying.

I haven't slept hardly at all over night

Maybe I should just go to the hospital

You poor people have tried your best

I am sure no one wants to hear this crap anymore

I cant stand to hear any more about it myself


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LWC, personally, I would LOVE for you to go to the hospital. There, you will get rest, peace, and help from a trained staff to see what he has been doing to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I can hear it now
> 
> "See? Everyone can see that you are the crazy one, You really need to get some help."
> 
> I am reading this book and I cant stop crying.


You know, I didn't realize it at first when you started posting, that so much of your issue was tied up in his manipulation of you and your subsequent victimization. Is that the right word? To mean that he has beaten you down SO much by the insecurity, the silent treatments, the financial abuse, that you are a shell of who you used to be. 

fwiw, that is NOT crazy. That's being a victim of HIM. 

Big difference. He can say it all he wants. YOU know, WE know, your mother and sisters already know, this is all on HIM.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

btw, do you have any female friends?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

One more btw, lol - the way we have been pushing you so hard the past couple days, once we realize the truth?

It's the exact same way I and others have had to push other abuse victims, who will go kicking and screaming into denial that they have a choice. It is SO prevalent with abuse victims, you just have NO idea. I once spent 9 months helping a lady move out from her (15 years younger!) abusive husband, along with a coworker, 9 months to get her to see she did have options and she was her own worst enemy at that point.

So all the stuff we've been putting you through? Never feel bad about it. It's so common they could write a book about it. Oh wait, they did! lol

Just know there's nothing wrong with you. You're acting in complete harmony as anyone would be in your situation. Luckily, you're now seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Just think how proud your kids are going to be of you. And your family.


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## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

Yes honey

There's nothing left for you to fight for. Go for a walk now and leave the house for today. Go have some fun. Reconnect with yourself. Even if it's for half an hour.

Or do go to the hospital. Or call your sister or mom. Do you want to be the proudest homeless women? You have choices and you can make a choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

If YOU feel you need hospitalization, then go. But I hope you're not caving in to his opinion of you.

And I hope your embarrassment over what he did in the past is not holding you back from calling your sister. I suspect she'll feel bad to find out you're in crisis and haven't called her. If she has a place of peace for you to go to, and she knows you need to get away, I think SHE'LL FEEL BAD that you're trying to keep this secret from her.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

*Re: Re: An Open Letter to LostWifeCrushed's husband*



LostWifeCrushed said:


> I worked my way through college also doing minimum wage jobs and slogging it and raising 2 kids.


Without your husband.

If you want you back, walk away from him. ASAP.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

If you will take it, I will lend you money to get an apartment and get on your feet. 

You aren't crazy. You are whipped.

But you have to take the step out the door. We can't do it for you. We would have done it by now if we could.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

turnera said:


> *Reading the book will help you understand why staying is untenable and actually HARMFUL to you. I'm not saying your H is some kind of monster, btw; just incredibly dysfunctional who gets what he wants by manipulation, intimidation, deliberate abandonment, as well as a bunch of abusive 'tactics' that work for him (such as trying to isolate you from your family).*
> 
> *It'll help you see that you are now so brainwashed that you feel inadequate to make such big decisions on your own. * It'll help you believe, really believe, that staying is no option, that you're just delaying the inevitable. It will give you strength.
> 
> And BTS, assuming you're reading this, we, and her family and any friends, WILL keep stepping forward and pushing her out that door. The sooner you accept that, the less of an ass you will look like to her, her family and friends, us, and well, pretty much everyone. If you don't care about her, at least care about your reputation.





turnera said:


> You know, I didn't realize it at first when you started posting, that so much of your issue was tied up in his manipulation of you and your subsequent victimization. Is that the right word? To mean that *he has beaten you down SO much by the insecurity, the silent treatments, the financial abuse, that you are a shell of who you used to be. *
> 
> *fwiw, that is NOT crazy. That's being a victim of HIM. *
> 
> Big difference. He can say it all he wants. YOU know, WE know, your mother and sisters already know, this is all on HIM.





turnera said:


> One more btw, lol - the way we have been pushing you so hard the past couple days, once we realize the truth?
> 
> *It's the exact same way I and others have had to push other abuse victims, who will go kicking and screaming into denial that they have a choice. It is SO prevalent with abuse victims, you just have NO idea. I once spent 9 months helping a lady move out from her (15 years younger!) abusive husband, along with a coworker, 9 months to get her to see she did have options and she was her own worst enemy at that point.*
> 
> ...


Please understand you are not crazy. YOU ARE ABUSED!!!

The "crazy" spin abusers try to put on their victims is only to get them to have self doubt in themselves and to invalidate their feelings. They do it to have CONTROL. Thats all abusers want is that control. 

You mentioned how good you felt yesterday being away at your moms. Remember that peaceful feeling? Thats what happens when you get away from your abuser. So do more of that when he is around to start clearing your head.

You cannot get a focus on what you need to do for yourself until you can get away from the maddening "you're crazy" talk of your abuser.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

hopefulgirl said:


> If YOU feel you need hospitalization, then go. But I hope you're not caving in to his opinion of you.
> 
> And I hope your embarrassment over what he did in the past is not holding you back from calling your sister. I suspect she'll feel bad to find out you're in crisis and haven't called her.


If I had a sister and that happened, I'd be hurt AND mad at the same time. 

That's what family is for, LWC: to be there for you when you are vulnerable.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I want to remind everyone, LWS and BTS included, of two facts:

1) Not all families are good. Some people in families are immoral, selfish, or will try to hurt you when you're vulnerable. So we can not just assume that "because they are family" they will do the right thing. How many times have we advised Loyal Spouses to tell their Disloyal's family (with the hopes of the family telling them to stop cheating and go back to the marriage) only to have the family support the adultery? Some families are just NUTS! 

So LWC, you know your own family better than we do. I have faith in you to make a good decision there. But do remember this: not all family is "flesh and blood." Sometimes family is your best friend, the caring neighbor, or extended family like an aunt. You know the people who really care about you. Go to them. That's your family. 

2) We have only heard one side of the story, and trust me there is ALWAYS another side to the story. Remember the lady who was cheating who went to her mentor and said "What should I do? He screamed at me for five hours last night!" and the mentor thought it was abuse....but she conveniently left out the part about last night being the night he discovered her adultery! I'm not saying that LWC is lying, so don't go there. I'm just saying that we have only heard her side, and I bet BaTS side differs greatly. 

My guess is that BaTS is not quite the monster LWC makes him out to be, but rather a very immature, clueless, controller who won't go to counseling and thus doesn't know any other way to behave. He had the surgery, he's broke, his wife doesn't love him, and the way he deals with it is to avoid, deny, and drown out the pain (if not with alcohol, then with silence). Those aren't great coping skills but that doesn't make him a monster either. 

So do I think LWC should stay? Heck no. Not as things are. I think she'd be smart to get away, get some of her own time and space, return to who she is, and get some counseling. Let BaTS do the same. I don't see any reason to rush into anything other than separating and that mainly just for LWC's sanity and for BaTS' depression. (BTW, that's "feeling depressed" not clinical depression.)


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

For fun, I want to share with you something, LWC. When I left my abusive exH, it took me seven times before I actually left for good and wouldn't come back. I know for a fact that people got frustrated with me for going back and going back, but I kept hoping he'd change. 

BUT along the way, I found a support group for victims of domestic violence that was offered by the county. It was for folks who's spouses had been to court for DV, and in that group I met a bunch of women who were really JUST LIKE ME. They thought like me, acted like me, and even kept trying like me, so I learned I wasn't nuts and it was pretty typical actually. I also met a bunch of FRIENDS who were struggling with their own issues, learning how to be alone, learning how to be healthy, etc and we could do it together. When I freaked out and knew I wasn't thinking clearly, I could call them and I knew they understood. 

And I can also testify that both turnera and vi-bride did the same thing you're doing. Shoot I think I had to almost come to blows with vi-bride because she is one strong woman, and turnera...well we all know no holds are barred with turnera. My point here is this: look at all three of us. All three of us are no longer living in that crazymaking life. All three of us are wiser and stronger and pretty awesome people partly because we've BEEN THERE and got out of it. Now I hung in there with turnera and vi-bride and I'm not giving up here either, but part of you healing is that you are going to HAVE TO do something. I want you to heal--seriously I do! Wow I wish I could put what I know in my head...into your head so you could just get a glimpse of it and have hope! But I can not do this for you. You have to jump. It feels like jumping off a ledge into an abyss you can not see--BOY do I get that!! But what's weird is that once you jump, I swear, a bridge appears right under your feet. 

So take a small step right off the ledge. LWC I promise it is not as scary as it seems right now.


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Is there even enough money coming in to pay the rent, utilities and needs? Do you know how much those are each month? I have been broke enough that I could honestly say I couldn't give money for gas or new clothes because the need bills took up every cent that came in. If this is your situation then I understand when you say that for you to take enough money to leave, he would likely lose the home and not be able to stay on his feet, and you don't want that because he's your husband and you love him. So it's a choice but it doesn't sound like that situation is going to change so either do it anyway or find another solution that you are more comfortable with.
> 
> When I left my ex BF there was no money, I had to stay in a homeless shelter while pregnant until I could get back on my feet, which happened a lot quicker than if I stayed and waited for him to do it for me and no matter how hard it was, it was worth every second to be where I am now. I would probably still be waiting, 12 years later. Where do you want to be in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years?
> Still waiting?
> (sorry for butting in, I've been following your threads for a while)


Excellent advice!


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Just for the record:

The mentioned 'porn solution' is a pathetic rendering of a proposition consisting of multiple points to do an emergency save of the marriage.

In order to be able to stay together you have to give and take. This was a point OP should give. The rest is about restoring intimacy and communication. In a very unsophisticated manner, but that is because the situation was really harsh.

In the posts after that it became quickly clear that the relationship was unrecoverable. So forget about trying for communication and intimacy.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You ok today?


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## Clay2013 (Oct 30, 2013)

I hope she is taking a break and just relaxing today. At least if he is leaving her alone it will give her some time to wind down. I think to much of this all the time just tears people down as bad as the abuse. 

Clay


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## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

Or maybe she did get hospitalized.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Or something happened with him.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BaTS, you're honoring her wishes, right? I know you're a decent person and are just as confused as she is. So I hope to hear that you two are reaching a level of mutual respect, to get through this.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

turnera said:


> You ok today?


We did kind of pile on yesterday. She may not feel safe with us any more. I hope we didn't push her away.


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

If there's one truth I know in life, it's that you always have choices. None of them may be "good" or what you immediately want, but there is no such thing as "no choice".

Do something - a temp job would bring in money quickly and put you in an office environment over fast food. Contacting your mother/sister would offer you some support and an outlet. Going to a shelter would get you out. Talk to him when he is silent and just tell him your decided actions - you are taking money from the account, etc. Stop being a reactive person. Become proactive. You are not limited by anything more than your own excuses and fears.

Make some CHOICES. None are perfect, ideal, or without consequences. But do something. Once you make the first choice, the next will become easier, and the next. Get some motion in your life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I talked with LWC last night. She had gotten some sleep yesterday after we pummeled her with our tough love. The sleep helped somewhat.

Haven't spoken with her today. She's on the left coast so it is mid-morning there.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LWC, please let us know if you're ok.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am making appts with my doctor and counselor, I really feel I need some help both physically and emotionally and this thread has illuminated many things for me. I appreciate so much having this forum and all the posters here who have really thought about what I have written and tried to advise me.

I think one of the major problems survivors of incest face, even after years of IC, is knowing/judging what is normal. I think for me, porn has always been a problem because many of the girls involved in it have been abused. Maybe they just have a healthier sexuality but I'm not convinced of that. I hate to see other girls abused in this way and was discounted several times in my life that I would end up promiscuous, in a series of toxic relationships or on the pole or on drugs.

In therapy I really dealt with overcoming this past and trying to make a life that did not include those things. Although I struggled with many issues, I eventually emerged a whole and healthy person, hellbent on achievement and making my world 
what I wanted to create. I studied piano relentlessly. I disrobed the title of victim and went to school as soon as my second dd was born, I knew they needed an educated mother and I embraced academia with a vengeance. I excelled in school and earned many honors. Now both of my dds are pursuing their educations and I feel this is a direct result of my choice to finish school

I know it sounds crazy but discovering the sister porn long ago was a relief. When you have been through what my mom and sisters have you will put up with a LOT to have the security that your own daughters will never be at the hands of a pedophile. In this twisted way, I trusted him, fully prepared to deal with ANY other sexuality related issues but this one.

I even bought my H graphic novel porn because for some reason this doesnt bother me at all, probably because no real girls are involved. It was very hard for me to do this but I accepted that he liked stuff like this and didnt judge him at all. When I found out he was visiting cam girls after this birthday gift, I was even more devastated because I tried very hard to accept this and have a grown up attitude about it. AND I STILL GOT CHEATED ON

Sometimes I think he might have leanings toward voyeurism and if thats the case I will never be enough for him sexually. But we never get this far because he refuses to discuss it.

I dont think my H is a monster, I am really sorry if it came off in this way. I think you have his side of the story and you can read his original thread after dday and the posts he has made here. Notice he does not DENY any of what is happening, he just explains WHY. So I am not making things up here. I would have 
never told about the sister thing but posters kept pushing me to say why I never responded to why I would not involve her, so I spilled the beans. It was many many years ago and he asked both of us for forgiveness at the time he was very sincere. 

She forgave him then, but I dont think she will again.... 

I have said many times he is a beautiful, brilliant and talented man. I was emotional, angry and heartbroken because I was dealing with an unremorseful spouse that leans toward narcissism . This was separate from my past issues but one thing became clear the other day.

Living with this sexual betrayal while being told its fixed and everything is fine.....this is EXACTLY what it was like when I was little and at the hands of my father. He would act as if life was fine.....meanwhile, there was this awful secret dysfunction that was happening to me and my sisters. To be honest, I was so 
young, I didnt even understand till I was much older what was happening.

Having to live day to day with the silent treatment or the constantly being told everything is ok, WHEN IT IS CLEARLY NOT OK, not only triggers my current infidelity issues, but it also triggers the past and I realize this whole situation is so unhealthy for me and probably for my husband as well, just not in the same way.

We had a deal to come here for a month and talk out the issues but that fell apart within a week. I honestly tried to answer and respond to the best of my ability and it just didnt work.

My H said there is no reason to come back here and be called an a hole every day, that its not helpful and so he went back on our deal to just try for a MONTH after less than a week.

Its OK, I gave it my best shot.

I think it might be best for us to spend some time apart.

I hope that if/when he does post here again that he can find the same support and feedback and help I have gotten here.

Thank you again all those who have tried to help. I can never repay you. It has meant the world to me.

PEACE


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> The problem for me is this same issue....Its what broke us up before. For almost 3 years. I can never reference these incidents because I am told I am only pointing out every mistake he has ever made. NO I AM POINTING OUT A PATTERN THAT IS GETTING WORSE NOT BETTER. . .
> I thought these problems were over and done with, but they rear their head YEARS later and I am just supposed to get over it and stop "causing problems"?
> 
> These problems are not just me getting mad about "porn". Its how destructive they have been to me. And every time it has been personal and affected me more than just having my feelings hurt.
> ...


OMG, LWC. I didn't realise all this was it was going on for soooooo long. And he blamed YOU and your reaction to his behaviour on the fact that YOU were abused as a child??? It's hideous. Right now you are so POWERLESS, you, a grown woman doesn't know how much money there is in the account? He has control of that too. 

You have been with a controller all these years. He never did R - the opposite in fact. You tried. Basically abused people find it VERY hard to leave an abusive situation, that's why you kept going back. It is a complex psychological issue, think of 'battered wives syndrome' - they just can't leave, even with physical abuse. Your is emotional abuse. 

He might lose the house - I noticed you didn't say 'our' house. SO WHAT. He can get a small flat or rent. So can you. Why keep a family home that has those kind of memories.

You MUST get out. There's no hope for this one. He would have to change so much after so long that it's impossible. It was great that he came on here but he got angry with posters including me and all everyone was saying - what they always say to WS that he must tell you the 100% truth and 'allow' you to manage the finances because he wasn't able to manage them. They shouldn't have even had to say 'allow'. He's your H for goodness sake, who is supposed to be your protector, the one who loves you most in the world and your soulmate. :sad:

Can you stay with your Mom/sister until you get a job? 

My heart goes out to you. As a little girl you were abused. That would have left scars making it easier for you to be abused again. Sure enough you were - this time emotionally. Any other woman would have left long ago but I believe your abuse as a child has a lot to do with you staying. Since you met him long ago it has been an on-again, off-again intolerable situation. 

Please leave. Sell your stuff on CL as you had started to. Sell the house, sort out the financial stuff. Above all take care of yourself. Use family support. Stay on TAM as you go through it if you find it helpful. Go to heavy duty IC. 

Close your eyes for a second and imagine it's a beautiful sunny day in summer and you are on a picnic at a beach/river/lake/park/ with family/friends - wherever people go to picnic where you live. You are sitting there, happy and peaceful, laughing and chatting as normal people do, eating some yummy food. Get yourself a little dog and when you go back to your cosy, peaceful little home, maybe a tiny apt - that's fine, your doggie will be waiting and give you the warmest welcome. Animals make amazing companions and there's no one as faithful. You can take up those hobbies and interests that you always liked and that haven't have the energy to engage in with what was going on. Join a reading/knitting/any club or volunteer at a charity and you will make some good friends. Please do all that. I promise the sun will come out again if you do. 

And PEACE to you too LWC. You have suffered enough.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

********** said:


> Can you stay with your Mom/sister until you get a job?


Not trying to be picky just want to answer this point for LWC. She can't stay with her mother, her mother stays with someone else. She can't call on her sister for help because her husband has manipulated her into a psychological block that prevents LWC from asking her for help.

I have to say, if I found out my sister was in this situation I'd come flying in like the Hand of God. Excuse me, I mean the Fist of God.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

> I think one of the major problems survivors of incest face, even after years of IC, is knowing/judging what is normal.


This is a really interesting insight, something I didn't understand. Makes me feel a little bad for the tough love we dealt out, though I know we certainly "came at you" with only the best of intentions. Some people are totally against violence, but I think there could be times when a very smart person is talking about living a certain way that just isn't rational so that your inclination might be to actually slap their face to sort of grab their attention because they just don't seem to be hearing what you're saying - I think we were figuratively doing that.

My problem with porn is similar to yours - a lot of the people in porn not only, as you said, have been victims of past sexual abuse, but I also think of them in the present tense, as people who are degrading themselves for money. A few of them say they are "proud" of what they do, but I suspect personality disorders or low IQ's in many of those who claim that. A lot of them have to be on drugs or have a few drinks before they "perform" or else they can't bring themselves to do those sorts of things. If they have some decent parents or grandparents or siblings, I imagine how THEY must feel when they find out. And I wonder if the people who pay to use porn understand that they are perpetuating this when they pay - they keep people (mainly women) getting into this awful "line of work." These women are human beings, but porn users treat them like objects and don't care.

Anyway, you sound like you're a lot better today and that's GREAT. I agree that time apart now is exactly what you need.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

hopefulgirl said:


> This is a really interesting insight, something I didn't understand. Makes me feel a little bad for the tough love we dealt out, though I know we certainly "came at you" with only the best of intentions. Some people are totally against violence, but I think there could be times when a very smart person is talking about living a certain way that just isn't rational so that your inclination might be to actually slap their face to sort of grab their attention because they just don't seem to be hearing what you're saying - I think we were figuratively doing that.
> 
> My problem with porn is similar to yours - a lot of the people in porn not only, as you said, have been victims of past sexual abuse, but I also think of them in the present tense, as people who are degrading themselves for money. A few of them say they are "proud" of what they do, but I suspect personality disorders or low IQ's in many of those who claim that. A lot of them have to be on drugs or have a few drinks before they "perform" or else they can't bring themselves to do those sorts of things. If they have some decent parents or grandparents or siblings, I imagine how THEY must feel when they find out. And I wonder if the people who pay to use porn understand that they are perpetuating this when they pay - they keep people (mainly women) getting into this awful "line of work." These women are human beings, but porn users treat them like objects and don't care.
> 
> Anyway, you sound like you're a lot better today and that's GREAT. I agree that time apart now is exactly what you need.


Thanks hopeful. I really see things differently now. I realize that my H has tried to keep this under wraps because he knows all these things that I think. It must have been terrible for him to know that I felt this way and him, in the beginning used porn like most young men do, and just hid it from me, again, like most young men do.

The problem is that when his use began to escalate he hid even more from me, and I think this is when the distance began, when our life became sexless. He still maintains that every time he makes a move on me, I reject him. Thats because I feel uncomfortable. I am unsure of what is really going on with him and he has gone to great lengths to keep the truth from me. How can I be intimate here? How can I trust I wont be hurt again?

I really really love him. His communication with me about this has become completely shame-based, and the easiest target is my past abuse. But I have been in and out of IC for a long time, I tried to keep my own issues separate and just deal with what the two of us were facing. But the betrayals and subsequent responses all seem to make their way back to my childhood abuse.

It keeps him from having to deal with his own choices and what consequences they have wrought. So the hand of my father reaches far into my marriage and gives my H an out. I hate this. Having confided my experience only to have it used against me.

I am not the disordered one, my father is. His pathology is deep and pervasive. During R, I found out I had a sister that had been searching for us WHO IS YOUNGER THAN MY DAUGHTER. That means my father was still abusing much younger women in old age. My mother was a teenager when she married my father in his 30s. He is stilll alive and I will bring roses to his grave when that day finally comes that he leaves this earth. I will bring roses for finally being released from breathing the same air. The air will be purer somehow.

It just kills me that any problem I have as a grown up always comes back to this abuse by my father, its like thats the reason for everything bad that ever happens to me. I really hate that. I just wanted my H to see that cam girls are cheating and stop lying to me.

The "official story" about this cheating in my marriage makes no sense to me. Saying that I had the drive mirrored but destroying it anyway makes no sense. He KNEW I was going to reverse delete that drive, thats why he destroyed it and he cant even be honest about that.


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## looking for clarity (Aug 12, 2013)

Go to the ladies lounge and find my thread, how often does your husband touch your breasts. It is his fault you feel uncomfortable and he's trying to blame you for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Your husband gets no out by perpetuating abuse and using past abuse to protect his abusive behaviour from judgement.

He is sick. He has a problem and needs help unless he wants to be alone for the rest of his life. God will not look kindly upon him if he protects his perversions at the expense of another.

You sound tons stronger today. I'm glad you took yesterday off.

You are so loathe to completely condemn your husband. I'm not sure I get that. But it is kind of you.

Being grateful he isn't a pedophile is something only someone from your background can fully grasp. At least he isn't an axe murderer.

He still isn't someone anyone is safe with. 

He used your victimization and continued it by using your sister. That is a very, very sick mind. I would not feel my children were safe. He has no boundaries. 

I wish your husband would get real and get help. I can't guess how awful it must be to live inside his mind.

A lot of me would also like to see a real man give him the ass whooping he deserves for the way he has treated you.

His hell is his life.

:....

You are a cool person. Your eyes are open. I can feel a change in you already. You are no longer living in darkness. You aren't protecting your abuser. That is so much of what wrecks a kid's mind. Keeping the family secret.

Open all the shutters on your Windows
Unlock all the locks upon your doors
Brush away the cobwebs from your daydreams
No secrets come between us anymore

Land of Make-Believe
The Moody Blues

Listen to that song. I'm going to do that now and think of you.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Him using your past abuse to blame you for his behavior is so sickening to me.

What a coward. 

Own your sh!t, B&T!!!!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My DD's friend had her baby this week. A baby with a BPD who has choked her, hit her, put his own mother in the hospital, and came to DD's graduation party after being told not to, and spent the entire evening ruining it for everyone by 'forgetting' to take his meds and freaking out for HOURS and then trying to jump off the balcony to kill himself (because he finally had a great audience for it who would, of course, prevent him from doing so). And all before his 21st birthday. I tolerated being around him yesterday for DD's and DD's friend's sake. But this sick little sh*t had the audacity to call ME out after we got there for not acknowledging him. It was all I could do to keep from slapping him. He has ruined DD's friend's life and I will never do more than tolerate being in the same room with him. He should be grateful for that much.

Men with problems rarely get better.

LWC, you sound much better. Again, I'm sorry we pounced on you, but I personally was afraid you were about to give up and just accept this life with him. Like so many women do who have been abused. IMO, he is welcome to get help, once you are gone, and try to earn you back. Maybe he will. I hope so.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it's an excellent idea to take a breather. Your insight into your issues with his betrayals informs an awful lot. The silent treatment, itself an abusive tool, in my opinion, is especially hurtful to you.

So bow out for a while. Find a way to take the pressure off, even if it's just for a few days. You need to regroup.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am doing this now. Staying with my sister and working on getting a contract. Got a hair cut. I am spending the month of march taking financial responsibility for myself. 

I hope he uses the time for something productive as well.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hair cuts are huge!


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Especially for Marge Simpson!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> Especially for Marge Simpson!


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I just spit out my lunch laughing at that!


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Excellent! Another clinical result showing that the Clipclop diet is effective.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What about the IC? You said a month ago you were making appointments.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I think she is getting her head together at her sister's first. Decompressing. Maybe some time not focusing on her marriage problems will help her feel better and make her stronger for IC.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Hello from the great beyond!

After reading that HEY YOU, yeah YOU post I realize I need to update a real thread instead of having a new one. I have had so many threads here, I can see I really should have kept my original Cloak and Dagger thread going, but it would be a billion pages by now LOLS! There have been so many stages we went through, the 2.0, etc.

But this thread was the one that broke the camel's back. Man, I was a hard case. I could feel it creeping back a couple days ago, fueled by the anger stage welling up. I never want to go back there.

I have been staying with family for a month now and applying to a lot of jobs, I had interviews last week and have interviews this week and made the final round for a big job. Have to sign NDAs and be conference room ready. Well, I finally got there and am in the thick of it now. It feels good to have the neurons firing in the part of my brain that's actually smart and functional.

New shoes and a classic five piece wardrobe is literally healing for a person. When my sister left for Hawaii I went camping for a long weekend with DD, IT WAS SO BEAUTIFUL. You could see a zillion stars... Then DD left with her BF on Spring Break and I was alone for the first time.

I did so well up to this point. But I went to see him, was my old hurt and broken self and well, just had a bad night. If I could have made it through this month without that night I would have felt victorious! I guess its not going to be perfect, but I feel I finally broke the pattern. It wasn't my H, but myself that was the greatest obstacle.

We are supposed to have dinner tonight. I wonder how it will be? When I think about it, I get anxiety attacks! LOLS but I am combating all of it by holding fast to the tenets I adopted when I left on the 1st of last month:

Self-empowerment
Healthy Boundaries
Personal Responsibility
Positive Self-Image
Self-Reliance
Assertiveness
Self-Love
Inner Peace

Wish me good luck for seeing my H tonight, no matter the outcome, we can never go back to living like that again. Thank you to everyone who posted here that didn't give up and helped this day come to pass.

PEACE


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nice. Why are you seeing him?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> Nice. Why are you seeing him?


That was our agreement. I was leaving to stay with family and get a job. We would get together in one month on April Fool's Day and have dinner and talk.

So I am keeping my end of the deal.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ah, ok, makes sense. Good luck! And congratulations!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Pay for your own dinner, so that he cant say you owe him anything.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> Pay for your own dinner, so that he cant say you owe him anything.


And let him do most of the talking. Don't bring up the relationship, IMO, let him do it.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I agree. Don't give him any info that is important to your future. Nothing about where you have applied/interviewed or money or plans.

Stay loose and aloof.

You are "winging it" for now. Feeling your way forward. Optimistic within reason. 

Emotionally, you are reserved. There is still so much to process. You aren't in a position to discuss the future. Things are still up in the air.

He looks well. You are pleased to see him smile. How is [ list of boring, innocuous things that don't deal with money or the relationship.pets, friends, somewhere he goes during the day, weather, spring, dumb TV show, etc.]

Good luck kiddo!


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

clipclop2 said:


> I agree. Don't give him any info that is important to your future. Nothing about where you have applied/interviewed or money or plans.
> 
> Stay loose and aloof.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Exactly


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

*SOOOOOOOOOOO*...how did it go?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

LOLS, AC!

Last night was positive. HE MADE ME DINNER. And it was a nice steak also.  Really good food. We talked about lighthearted stuff and laughed and it was nice to see him without all the fighting and tension.

I told him I had to go around 10pm because I had a job interview in the morning and one on Thurs. I have everything set up at my family's and I didn't bring anything with me for it. I didn't feel like I could come home and stay in my new routine for lots of reasons, none of which I mentioned and he agreed I should not try to move anything around this week.

So I guess we will talk about it when the weekend gets here?

All I took when I left the house was a backpack of clothes and my laptop. I dont want to go backwards. I am in a good routine now and don't want to change it till I have a contract that pays.

It took moving an elephant up the hill to get to where I am now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So he's expecting you to move home?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

You know, I do so well when I don't see him. When I do see him its really good, but it never lasts long. On the 1st, it was really nice. He didn't bring up the relationship and neither did I. We had dinner and I left because I had interviews. We were supposed to talk this weekend and all we did was fight because I wanted to talk about real problems and what his solutions were.

He didn't have any. Except to just not focus on problems and just try to have a good day for a change. So I said what about our sexless marriage and living like roommates and endless silent treatments? He said we should make a deal that I don't yell and he won't give me the silent treatment.

Just being around him and his attitude makes me want to yell! We never have sex. EVER. When I am home he treats me like the weird kid in middle school that everyone avoids. He says we don't have sex because I turn him down. So its my fault we have a sexless marriage. He says I get ignored because I get mad and start b!tching. So its my fault I get the silent treatment.

Last night I went up to the corner bar by our house and texted him to come up if he wanted to talk. He actually said he took sleeping pills and didnt want to fight with me anymore and had to go to bed.

Then he said I was wasting his money "getting drunk"! I orderered one beer and some fries because he claims to want me to come home and now he wont even walk ONE block to meet me?! Fine. I drive over there and walk in the door, and he's texting someone!

So I say, "I thought you were going to bed? Who are you texting?" He says, "I was trying to text you!" in an exasperated voice.

Then he sets his phone down and it lights up, so he obviously wasn't texting me and I tell him that. His phone goes off again! I am livid at this point because why is he just lying to my face. I am standing right there, crying. "You obviously aren't texting me."

I just leave and I also leave my phone there. I dont want him to pay for my phone anymore.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I really like working on the small contract that I have. Once a week at night, I am learning some Java, there is a team of 4 so far, in a rapid programming environment. Its barely enough for the gas money but it also is putting me on a current team project which I really need to get a big contract later on. And its downtown. Which is what I wanted. And my days are free for interviews and portfolio submissions.

I dont have any conflicts with anyone! Everybody talks over each other and its like a brainstorming session. Each person is focused on a goal and a problem to solve. It makes me feel sparkling and bright in my mind.

I wish I could solve my marriage problems. There were times when I used to have this kind of exchange with my husband. Usually when we were working on music compositions. I think that's where my husband's high functioning part resides. In music.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Serial cheaters never change. Sorry LWC.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Serial cheaters never change. Sorry LWC.


Who knows what he's doing. He's probably selling something off CL. The point is, he has time for everyone else but me. Our 10th wedding anniversary is in 3 days and I am couch surfing at my family's while he gets the house. Its just sad.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's not sad. It's your freedom. Freedom to find a better life.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> It makes me feel sparkling and bright in my mind.




Good! You have a sparkling and bright mind. What you are feeling is its natural state. 



Guard it like the treasure it is. Share it only with those who find joy in seeing you sparkle, and bring you their own treasure to share. Let go of those who would dull you with strife and pain.



The life you want can be yours. You have much going for you. 



You accepted less for yourself than you needed and deserved, and you lost track of what you needed and deserved. My hope is you never go back to accepting less, and that you become self-assured and effortlessly feel to your core that what you want and need is good, and that you deserve it.





P.S. I wish you would consider asking the admins of TAM for a name change. No matter where you take yourself from here, I don't think of you as Lost or Crushed.


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## loveforfamily (Mar 13, 2014)

I read through a lot of this. Boy, what a rough road you have had. Good to see you taking steps. Sometimes it's just about putting one foot in front of the other. May I make one small suggestion, is take the one foot out of the door to him and don't look back. Leaving, separations still d does not stop him from his behavioral choices. I am not sure what allure is left. I know it's hard, keep up your good work and stop letting him toy with you.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I am really at a loss. I emailed him and said if he's not willing to fix the things that keep me from being able to keep a normal schedule and look for work from home, I guess I will stay with dd and try to find a contract from there.

My sister has put up with this for long enough now.

His reply? "Whatever you want to do is fine"

That doesn't even answer the question!

So exasperating. I know its only exasperating because I am still trying to talk....because

Tomorrow is our 10th wedding anniversary. 
I feel like my heart is breaking all over again.

I really have to get out of this frame of mind. My oldest dd and her bf are spending thousands flying in for my birthday on the 10th. I really hoped we could have dinner as a family. Thats how stupid and childish I am. Thats all I wanted for my birthday was just to have a good memory of us together.


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## loveforfamily (Mar 13, 2014)

I see that, per posts, there are many attempts at creating good memories and each time it's a temporary thing and replaced a few days later by a bad memory as sabotage occurs. What keeps you from just being done with him all together? I know you probably want to think better of him, however, I think saying he was selling something on CL after catching him texting sounds like maybe either assuming the best and fooling yourself or his backlighting is working to some degree.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Stop expecting him to be what he's not.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

turnera said:


> Stop expecting him to be what he's not.


:iagree:


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am really at a loss. I emailed him and said if he's not willing to fix the things that keep me from being able to keep a normal schedule and look for work from home, I guess I will stay with dd and try to find a contract from there.
> 
> My sister has put up with this for long enough now.
> 
> ...


But informative nonetheless.



> *So exasperating. *


Seems like it would be, very much.



> *I know its only exasperating because I am still trying to talk....*


If you keep observing yourself like this, eventually you will start to feel what you already intellectually know.



> because
> Tomorrow is our 10th wedding anniversary.
> *I feel like my heart is breaking all over again.*


I'm sorry it hurts, but I know it does.




> *I really have to get out of this frame of mind.*


Absolutely! So, do the things that help you get into a better frame of mind.



> My oldest dd and her bf are spending thousands flying in for my birthday on the 10th. I really hoped we could have dinner as a family.


Awesome! She must really care.




> *Thats how stupid and childish I am. *


Of course not. You are neither stupid nor childish! This is hard!! We all want things that just are not possible, sometimes. That's because we care, and life is important. Nothing more. Nothing less.




> Thats all I wanted for my birthday was just to have a good memory of us together.


I suspect you can still pull yourself together, summon some determination and courage, and manage to have a wonderful time with your daughter and her friend. Not exactly what you wanted. But good in and of itself. And healthy. And something no one can ever take away or prevent.


LWC, I just read an interesting and eye-opening book (for me at least) called Love yourself like your life depends on it, by Kamal Ravikant. Comes to mind for some reason.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I am really at a loss....
> 
> So exasperating. I know its only exasperating because I am still trying to talk....
> 
> ...


I think you have all the answers right here, LWC. You keep wishing and hoping and engaging in magical thinking. "IF ONLY..." is a theme for you. And it keeps you stuck. And in a lot of emotional turmoil. As if wanting so hard could make the past go away and make him suddenly want to change his stripes and become an honest, trustworthy, supportive partner who makes you feel happy and relaxed when you're with him.

How long has it been since you've felt truly happy and relaxed for any length of time in his presence? I think calling the two of you a "family" now is something of a stretch. You fight all the time, you can count on the fact that he lies to you/hides things from you, and you don't feel good when you're around him. 

You have taken some steps forward - which is great, you need to get moving ahead in terms of your work life - but you hold yourself back in your personal life. He's not holding you back as much as you may think he is - you are. Because you are so fixated on fixing him. In time for your anniversary or your birthday or whatever - this is magical thinking. 

It's sad that your anniversary is tomorrow, but 10th or 2nd or 4th or any old number - don't give the date or the number of years any more power than they need to have over you. It's a day in the week and it's a number of years, and YOU make it a big deal, nobody else does. He has obviously not honored the vows he made 10 years ago - not for the past few years. 

You've kept hanging on to hope that he would change, that he would see and understand your pain, and become a different man, a better man, for this experience. That isn't how it's working out, is it?

The "family" you seek is right under your nose. They've been with you, helping you, supporting you. He's not part of it. He doesn't get what being part of a family means. It's sad that he prefers his internet women, but that's his choice. Let it go. Let him go. Free yourself. You know that the marriage lasted 10 years in a legal sense, but that's all. Put him in your rear view mirror and get on with your life. Enjoy stepping out into the work world. Enjoy your birthday with your real family. Stop trying to make him into something he's not, and just work on someone you CAN work on - YOU. You've made good progress - keep going forward, don't look back.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

I know I get stuck in if onlys, but he keeps writing me letters about how we are soul mates and how much he wants our marriage to survive.... and yes, the 10th is a milestone for me. Just like my birthday coming up is also.

I didnt want my dd to come home and find me on her sisters futon! Its embarrassing. I wish he would just do something to move in some direction but it never happens. Now I am upset because I still have my whole life in that house, I am living out of a backpack and I have job interviews and a small contract I just have to keep going. I just need to keep to my daily routine till something gives.

Why do I keep holding on? All the music, for one. Because I love him also. Because when I got married I never thought I would be spending my 10th like this. If its going to end, I dont want it to end like this. Although I can see I may not have a choice, even though he keeps making it my choice....it doesnt seem like hes giving me any choices, just the responsibility.

There is this beautiful place that we used to have. A sacred space between us. Expressed in a lifetime's worth of music composition. Its not just a marriage. This was my composition partner also. This music meant the world to me.

He keeps sending me mp3s of it, so it makes it hard because it was my life.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> I know I get stuck in if onlys, but he keeps writing me letters about how we are soul mates and how much he wants our marriage to survive.... and yes, the 10th is a milestone for me. Just like my birthday coming up is also.


Ok, well what do his ACTIONS say?

Not music, not words on a paper, not words that come out of his mouth

WHAT DO HIS ACTIONS SAY? 

That is the only truth you need.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> Ok, well what do his ACTIONS say?
> 
> Not music, not words on a paper, not words that come out of his mouth
> 
> ...


His actions say he is miserable with me. So miserable, it would be an act of kindness to let him go.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> His actions say he is miserable with me. So miserable, it would be an act of kindness to let him go.


So in other words, his actions do not show that he is willing to work on himself to change and rebuild the marriage?

Has he scheduled IC or suggested MC? I would have thought you leaving would at least prompted SOMETHING from him besides trolling CL. Does he even come to read TAM anymore?


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> So in other words, his actions do not show that he is willing to work on himself to change and rebuild the marriage?
> 
> Has he scheduled IC or suggested MC? I would have thought you leaving would at least prompted SOMETHING from him besides trolling CL. Does he even come to read TAM anymore?


He probably reads everything I post. He sells on CL every day. Thats how he makes money, so thats not likely to ever change. He has musicians coming over to the house every day. He does custom work on their gear. Thats why I am not mad about the texting. I am just mad that hes got time to text them but not me.

It doesnt matter anyway.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Well yeah, you should be mad. He is showing you what is priority in his life. And its not you or the marriage.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Its just getting to me because my oldest dd wants to take a river cruise for my birthday. She knows I love to be out on the water. And I do.... I want to be on the water, seeing all the city lights, its one of my absolute most favorite things in the world.

For my graduation from university we all went out on the river. 

He proposed to me out on the river.

I dont understand stop expecting him to be something he's not. Stop expecting him to be my husband? I know, its ok, I get it, stop expecting him to care, right?

This would be one of the few if not the first time he has not been there for my birthday in almost 20 years.

And it will definitely be the first anniversary I have spent alone.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LWC - just b/c he was there physically for previous birthdays, doesn't mean he was there. You have been celebrating alone more than you realize, I think.

My birthday is Wed. From one Aries to another, happy Bday!


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

vi_bride04 said:


> My birthday is Wed. From one Aries to another, happy Bday!


Happy birthday vibride, we are one day apart!


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

turnera said:


> Stop expecting him to be what he's not.


:iagree:

It really is time for you to move on.


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

While I may be stuck in the marriage department, I sure won the lottery with the being a Mom thing, I've got one kid flying home to take me to a birthday dinner and another one who took time out from between classes today to send me this beautiful letter a few minutes ago:

*I hope you take the opportunity to enjoy your celebratory time, even though life may not be where you want it to be right now.

Your life has been full of both things, not just failures. Just because it is not that great right now doesn't mean you never accomplished anything. You've worked very hard in life, raised both of your kids who have grown up to be strong people. You have taken care of many people and worked very hard in your relationships. You have made it in life, and you are still living. It is okay to take a few days to stop and breathe, have a break, be thankful and graceful, enjoy the company of your relocated kid.

It is not easy to break what has been years of the same cycle. Of course you are going to have many different thoughts about it. But no matter what happens, you deserve to have a full and happy life. And you need to get it for yourself. Regardless of what happens with your marriage. The only reason people have negative thoughts relating to my stepfather is because they have seen how much it has hurt YOU, and they don't want you to feel like that anymore. You have worked too hard in life to end up crying in a bedroom because your husband can't figure out how to solve the problems. They want more for you. It doesn't make you bad, or him bad, they just want you to be okay and not be so hurt all the time.

I know that I sometimes feel hopeless about it because you seem so sad and crying when you're with him, and even more sad and crying when you're without him. I feel at a loss for how to help.

But I also realize that relationships are hard and so are breakups/divorces, so I let you process those feelings in whatever way you need to. I just hope that sometime in the future you return to that thing we call happiness. Life is pretty short, you should continue to have beautiful experiences before you're done here.

It is okay. It comes in waves. Deep breaths. It is okay to be where you are at. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind.

my sister once said "Grief is a strange creature and it often visits only at night."*

Gosh I got lucky with these two girls.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

It's not how you wanted things to be on your 10th anniversary, or on your birthday. That truly sucks, and you have been fighting against it turning out this way for so very long.

I am by no means a good example to follow, when it comes to letting go of people and things, and just letting them be however they are.

But I have had a taste of accepting -- accepting reality for what it is at this moment, not fighting it -- and am finding it is getting more and more comfortable, and the fatigue from trying to keep everything standing though off balance is starting to fade.

There's something to be said for committing oneself to facing that what one so wanted and fought for isn't, and to see it for what it is in the moment.


I wish I had some advice on how to do that (and maybe I'd do it myself!), but I don't. But from where I stand at the moment that is where I need to be.

LWC, your eyes are opening, and so much more open than they were several months ago aren't they? You're getting your footing again, and moving forward, aren't you? There's so much ahead of you, if you take care of your self in a truly loving way. Acceptance has helped make that possible. It is your friend. Even when, no, especially when, what is there to be accepted or denied is not what you wanted.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Move out honey, it's the best thing I ever did.
I was scared and afraid, I felt weak and powerless, couldn't take it any more, loving a man do desperately who didn't live me.
6 months later, I have cried, but I have laughed and grown. I have. Become closer to my kids, I become that strong woman I wad 20 years ago, enjoying life and becoming more confident every day.
I'm broke, but I don't care.

Guess who wants to work it out now??
Guess who wants me back?
It's time to take the control back. Show him what your made of
X


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## LostWifeCrushed (Feb 7, 2012)

Yeah, he just emailed me and told me if he moved out and got a new phone, etc, etc, etc, I wouldn't be nice to him or be asking him to come home.

No, if I was the one who failed to restore our intimate life a year after cheating with guys on the internet who wanted to show me their junk all day, while he lived in a sexless marriage and had to take care of me after several surgeries, I would be dead in a river somewhere.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yeah, he just emailed me and told me if he moved out and got a new phone, etc, etc, etc, I wouldn't be nice to him or be asking him to come home.


He may be asking you to come home...

But the implication is that HE is being nice to YOU. 

If he really thinks he's being nice to you, "de Nile" isn't just a river in Egypt.

He's either got a really skewed view of the world, or he's trying to manipulate you. Maybe it's both.


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## loveforfamily (Mar 13, 2014)

Manipulation. I recognize that stuff. I rode that ride for several years and then ran from it. He is no where near taking any responsibility. I am so sorry you are going through this. A suggestion....don't let him ruin your upcoming birthday celebration. If you have to leave all forms of communications home...do it! He will try.


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## daisygirl 41 (Aug 5, 2011)

Don't give him the chance to spoil your Bday.
Spend it with the kids and enjoy.
You are giving him too much power over your life, he knows you are weak.
Put your big girls panties on and tell him you've made plans that don't include him, even if you haven't!
You'll have a miserable time with him, you could have a half decent time with your kids.
It's all about control honey x


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

Not being funny as I understand where you are with this *but* 

......if you were a man I'd be advising you to put your balls on the table and start treating him as you should have done a long time ago.

You're losing self respect and dignity through this and it's time to be selfish, look out for you and leave him in your wake 

Listen, some have already said 

TAKE CONTROL - NOW

You do not have the excuse of not being able to do that 

*SO DO IT*


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

LostWifeCrushed said:


> Yeah, he just emailed me and told me if he moved out and got a new phone, etc, etc, etc, I wouldn't be nice to him or be asking him to come home.


Who cares what would happen in that circumstance?

You are where you are now BECAUSE OF HIM. Any time he whines, remind him that.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm not going to finish reading the catch up because...

I want to smack you!

You are falling back with every stupid interaction with him! 


STOP IT! STOP TALKING TO HIM! 


Get your head into your work and your intellectual growth and end the madness with him. Divorce now. No assets makes it easy. 

Then the future is all yours without any encumbrances.

He can be a loser like he is now and you can fulfill your destiny! 

Glad you got a contract. Keep plugging away! Learn some stuff about Sharepoint, too.  Job after job out there. 

Ruby on the rails. Free training on Coursera. 

Forward. Do not take a single step that covers old ground. It wastes your precious time.

And anyway, you want to have sex again some day, right? The only way you will have fulfilling, loving sex is by moving on. Sex with a guy who has never cheated on you is HIGHLY recommended in TAM circles! 

Get divorced.

Get laid.

Make money.

Feel good about life.

Save money.

Get a little place with some nature.

Feel good about life.

Meet a DECENT AND HONEST man.

Date.

Let him live at his place. You live at yours. 

Be free.

Be productive.

Be happy.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

LWC - how are things? Hope you are well.


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## vi_bride04 (Mar 28, 2012)

Bumpity bump bump


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

I see 3 possibilities here. 

She's got so much employment that she's too busy to check in.

She went back to her husband.

She's cheating on us with another forum.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The hell you say!!!!


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