# Wife fears returning to work will kill marriage



## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

I’ve taken time off from work and now H wants to retire and I should start earning again. But I believe that may mean the end of our 6-yr marriage.

I moved here for H’s job 3 yrs ago. I found volunteer and consulting work my first year, then after a bad fallout at a volunteer clinic where both H & I worked, I took a step back to learn about workplace bullying (since that’s how it was finally labeled) and to get therapy for how the attack had affected me. (See my other thread for info.) 

Recently I received a series of unsolicited, heartfelt and anguished written and verbal apologies from everyone involved except the original ringleader of the attack on me, and a lawsuit has been filed by another victim of that situation claiming damages for slander and economic losses. We suspect the woman at the heart of the bullying attacks is a sociopath or BPD (she’s been described as “having behaviors consistent with Cluster B personality disorders” without a strict diagnosis). Other medical professionals involved are having their careers threatened, etc. So I am recovering from a truly horrific confrontation with some of the worst in humanity. I was in fact lucky to be among the first to jump ship and raise the alarm. The whole affair in fact has become a local scandal.

Luckily, I healed well due to excellent PTSD therapy that reached back into all kinds of earlier issues. Hard work, but worth it, and I feel vastly different after having my professional and personal life torn apart for over a year. H & I sought out both IC & MC and miraculously are pretty happy together now. 

I was in the middle of a certification program when this episode began and finally, on the recommendation of my therapist, I took a leave of absence. Unfortunately, the program was time-sensitive and the director has withdrawn her offer to allow me to continue. Instead I will receive a certificate for completing the first half, which has dubious value in the marketplace right now. 

My question is whether to re-enroll (paying full tuition all over again), complete it, and go on in this expanded capacity within my field.

The reason this is no longer cut and dried is because I feel so different now. I feel I have lost my drive and competitive edge. I saw the negative effects of what happens to people when winning is everything. I am far more aware of how unhappy and stressed people appear to be in the workplace. 

I have read on other threads some men making disparaging remarks about how women don’t want to go back out into the marketplace once they’ve become stay-at-homes. We just can’t take it. Or we’re lazy. 

Thus I am embarrassed to admit: I hesitate to go back out there. For example, a helpful admin at the hospital where H works sent my CV to the person who would supervise me if I were to work with this new certification (assuming I completed it). That person immediately, and rudely, slammed the door in my face--he saw me as a threat because my qualifications would put me at the level of admin, not minion. Why complete the certification if the field is full of small-minded people protecting their petty fiefdoms? I don’t see the workplace as healthy at all, and my therapist warned me that he is seeing more & more deeply damaged people, especially in ancillary medical fields and the helping professions in general. 

I have told my H it’s time for us to open a B&B, or a dive shop in the Caribbean. I don’t know that I can return to my old kind of work and fight back against the biting competition, the put-downs, the constant sense of threat. I’ve seen it for years ever since earning my graduate degrees. Backstabbing, infighting, and sabotage. I have had my research stolen on several occasions. You have to be vigilant and not too trusting. It’s stressful and competitive. One grows hardened.

Some of that is par for the course and we are all expected to cope with it. And many workplaces are relatively free of it. I know. (H has wonderful colleagues.)

What troubles me is the seeming sea-change in my heart. I no longer want to work and fight with my “masculine” side as I used to. In my 18 months of sitting in the bleachers and healing, I have shifted back to my feminine self--and I found I had missed it. 

More than that, I fear that if I go back to working in the hard-a$$ marketplace and having to put on my big-boy pants every day to cope with the stress, it will trash my marriage--which barely survived what happened. My H expected me to be big and tough and “strong,” as he put it. Really? 

I’m not sure that’s who I want to be in my marriage. I also do not believe my H wants that. Why do men say that want “strong women” but then you end up feeling like roommates?

One effect of our falling-out, during this bad episode, was I lost my desire for him (it has since returned). You could chalk that up to the depression that came, but it lingered--I was so angry at him for wanting me to be this Top Gun solo fighter.   Does a strong woman need a man?

BTW, H does not need to retire; the money is good (far beyond what I can make, having so many breaks in my career path), the schedule is tolerable (3 d/wk), they like him enough to keep him a few more years. He just thinks it’s normal to retire at a certain point like his dad and much older brother did (but they were teachers!). My dad, also a doc, just retired a few months ago (I am 11+ yrs younger than H). So I don’t understand H’s “need” to suddenly quit and do…. what? He says: “Travel.” How will I do that if I also have to work? His insistence on travel is one reason my work record got spotty after we got together 8 yrs ago!

Despite the difficulties, our life actually got smoother, calmer, and healthier while I stayed at home this past year; we notably saved money with my fine-tuned managerial skills. I am deeply appreciative of H's ability to support us, and I work my tail off managing everything else so he can relax and take things for granted. Maybe he doesn't realize how much that is worth. And if I go back to work, will he do that for me? DOUBTFUL! I'm exhausted just contemplating the double duty--and having to tell an employer "sorry, my H wants me to travel with him."


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

I appreciate the response! This may be too much for TAM to handle...--perhaps it seems complicated-- but it really comes down to the SAHW dilemma. 

I think my H doesn't realize that our marriage may depend on my not returning to work. I see so much unhappiness and stress out there--how could this not affect a marriage? If his job is adequate, why not keep it for a few years more? 

There may be no good answer. But I think if I have to work I may not wish to remain married. I am not sure I will like who I have to become to succeed in my field. I'm not sure that person would be a good wife too.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

He's talking retirement? 
How old are you and your H? 
How many years did you work before this episode?


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Blonde said:


> He's talking retirement?
> How old are you and your H?
> How many years did you work before this episode?


I am in my early fifties, he in his early sixties, and doctors can retire anywhere from really early to really, really late. I have worked since I was 17 yrs old including through two master's degrees and a doctorate--doing a stint as single mom of 3, working essentially 24/7 while doing research, paying a mortgage, and earning my last degree. I look back and can't believe what I've done. 

So no wonder H thinks I am Superwoman. 

But this last episode really burned me. I don't know that I can plunge back out into the Working World. I'm not sure I can handle what it takes. The aggression and mistrust of each other. The competitiveness. The greed. The need for power. 

I just want to do some good in the world. 

I don't want that old go-getter edge to ruin my marriage. It got me to survive but I just don't want to have to be that way ever again.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

> I have told my H it’s time for us to open a B&B, or a dive shop in the Caribbean.


What does he think of that? Sounds awesome to me! :smthumbup:


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

questar1 said:


> I am in my early fifties, he in his early sixties, and doctors can retire anywhere from really early to really, really late. I have worked since I was 17 yrs old including through two master's degrees and a doctorate--doing a stint as single mom of 3, working essentially 24/7 while doing research, paying a mortgage, and earning my last degree. I look back and can't believe what I've done.
> 
> So no wonder H thinks I am Superwoman.
> 
> ...


I am in my early 50's too. I don't think you should feel the least bit guilty about being tired. Give yourself time to rebound and I think you will find some new passions in life with the energy and motivation to run with them...

I graduated nursing school with an RN at age 51 after 25 years of being SAHM of 8 children. I work part time as a med-surg nurse and the days fly right by- I love it! Being a SAHM was much more demanding time-wise BTW for those men you mentioned in your OP who think SAH=lazy. I have a BS and MS in engineering from the early 80's and that did not seem to intimidate HR or close doors for this more "blue collar" type of nursing work. Sometimes co-workers can be catty but I focus on the patients, giving them great care, ministering to them in their time of need. It is very fulfilling.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Blonde said:


> I am in my early 50's too. I don't think you should feel the least bit guilty about being tired.
> 
> THANK YOU
> 
> ...


 :smthumbup: Very inspiring! 

My new cert would be in medical interpretation (I speak several foreign languages). I would like to teach/train interpreters. But my therapist warned me that the medical field is notorious for these kinds of stresses--the backstabbing etc--such as what i already encountered with my CV being sent upstairs. If I don't battle my way into administration or training, I'll just be a minimum-wage minion and I will chafe at being underemployed. 

I feel the world might be a safer place if I just stayed home and baked muffins!

I have been told repeatedly that my CV makes people feel "threatened." 

As for the dive shop idea? My H groaned: "Oh, no, we can't go into business!" He once had a solo practice--doesn't want the headache!!


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## sidney2718 (Nov 2, 2013)

questar1 said:


> BTW, H does not need to retire; the money is good (far beyond what I can make, having so many breaks in my career path), the schedule is tolerable (3 d/wk), they like him enough to keep him a few more years. He just thinks it’s normal to retire at a certain point like his dad and much older brother did (but they were teachers!). My dad, also a doc, just retired a few months ago (I am 11+ yrs younger than H). So I don’t understand H’s “need” to suddenly quit and do…. what?* He says: “Travel.” How will I do that if I also have to work?* His insistence on travel is one reason my work record got spotty after we got together 8 yrs ago!


I'm sorry you are in this situation. I think you and your H have a serious communication problem. The material I bolded above is just one aspect of that. You are talking past each other. That isn't necessarily anyone's fault, folks who have been married for a while have a tendency at times to leap to conclusions about what is being discussed.

But it isn't just the travel thing. It is H's retirement plans, his inability to understand the stress you underwent, and so on. I'd suggest MC but somehow I get the feeling that H would not want that.

I understand some of your frustration. If I recall correctly you have a PhD and two Master's degrees. That's formidable and scary to many people.

The net result of all this is that it is possible that your marriage is in danger. If I were wiser, I'd have a suggestion for how to communicate your needs and desires, but I don't.


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## mablenc (Feb 26, 2013)

I understand you had a bad experience but, that doesn't mean you can't find a good company to work for with people that act professional. When interviewing get a feel on how you connect with them, ask about the company culture see if you share the same values.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

sidney2718 said:


> I'm sorry you are in this situation. I think you and your H have a serious communication problem. The material I bolded above is just one aspect of that. You are talking past each other. That isn't necessarily anyone's fault, folks who have been married for a while have a tendency at times to leap to conclusions about what is being discussed.
> 
> But it isn't just the travel thing. It is H's retirement plans, his inability to understand the stress you underwent, and so on. I'd suggest MC but somehow I get the feeling that H would not want that.
> 
> ...



You're right--these communication issues are exactly my fears. Marrying late in life has left us with some awkward assumptions. I do not fathom the notion of just retiring; we don't do that in my family.... We work with passion until we drop. (This is one reason last year was so heartbreaking for me--I was so passionate about the work I was doing when disaster hit.) 

But in H's family they quit as soon as they can. 

It's a different way of looking at life. 

He is the first doc in his family but there are many in mine. I don't see them retiring. But because the rest of his family have all worked in other types of jobs, retirement seems normal. Thus we have totally different assumptions about work and retirement.

That said, he has continued to work longer than he originally planned, because I brought 3 minor children into the marriage. He is actually an incredibly generous person. I don't want to abuse that. 

Still, to be with him, I gave up my job in a community where I had many connections and many options and came to an employment-light part of the world. Just when the recession hit, too. We thought his healthcare firm would hire me right away--but instead they froze all hiring and then began lay-offs. 

That's not his fault.

I'm grateful he didn't retire then!!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Some things to perhaps consider - just related to the work scenario. 

Putting on 'big boy pants' ...I feel there can be balance with retaining qualities deemed as feminine within the work place. I'm interpreting your view on this to relate to being assertive? The more we face these things and act on them, the easier it gets and the need to mentally wear 'big boy pants' will lessen, as you start living congruently with who you are. Takes practice and trial and error to get there though. It's hard work though so why bother? Personally I think it's good for growth. In saying this, it's also important to know your strengths and limitations and whether you see value in making certain changes and challenging yourself in areas compared to acceptance of where you're at in life.

I agree about being rigorous with the interview process. Really consider what brings out the best in you at work. The environment, culture, scope of work, autonomous or as a team ...and communicate these elements to prospective employers. Another thought is whether you could use your skills and experience and channel them differently to how you have before. Maybe that means aligning values.

Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> Some things to perhaps consider - just related to the work scenario.
> 
> Putting on 'big boy pants' ...I feel there can be balance with retaining qualities deemed as feminine within the work place. I'm interpreting your view on this to relate to being assertive? The more we face these things and act on them, the easier it gets and the need to mentally wear 'big boy pants' will lessen, as you start living congruently with who you are. Takes practice and trial and error to get there though. It's hard work though so why bother? Personally I think it's good for growth. In saying this, it's also important to know your strengths and limitations and whether you see value in making certain changes and challenging yourself in areas compared to acceptance of where you're at in life.
> 
> ...


Yes, you picked up on a key issue here.

My H has a tendency to step back and go beta on me. I find this troubling if endearing at times. I do NOT want to be the alpha in the family. I am concerned that is what will happen. You see what he did when I encountered that crisis at our volunteer clinic! He abandoned me to handle it on my own. Only when enough men had been targeted by the instigator was an attorney hired and things started to open up. The sociopath targeted us "strong" women first. It made me realize that sometimes even we warrior-women need warriors with bigger swords. And he let me down.

I am afraid that when I am working he will again view me as being on my own, tough and able to face the world, and I won't have a safe home to go to either--he's not a housekeeper--I don't want him to be--I am torn between these sets of roles and expectations. 

I am afraid that if I have to be that tough to make it in the current marketplace, I will cease to respect my H as being alpha enough. If I'm my own alpha, I don't need a man.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Oh we are viewing this from different perspectives.

It seems to me that your resentment towards your husband is the greater issue than returning to work and what that entails. I'd also take a guess that perhaps you're actually disappointed with yourself for not communicating with your husband what you need to share or how to find balance/resolve in that. Or am I wrong there? You started two sentences with "I am afraid..." Maybe that's the place to start. 

How does being your 'own alpha' rule out the need for your husband? Personally I think you can be your own woman and still have the need for your husband. I don't feel it's a choice of one or the other. How can you overcome your fear of closing-out your husband and building a defense wall? I'm also of the opinion that we don't need to be 'warrior-women' in the workplace. There may be opportunity for being assertive and such traits but I don't feel it needs to be a mask that's worn and overrides who you are.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

At the beginning of the year, I was involved with interviewing/recruiting for a role. We had a few candidates come through that had the 'right' responses but for various reasons, they weren't quite the fit we were after. Then a resume hit my desk that was considered a long shot. Recognizing potential qualities she might have to bring to the role, we lined up an interview. As I walked with her to the meeting room, she admitted how nervous she was. Her responses to questions were both genuine and fitting. I dug her honesty. What sold me on her was her ability to be herself, even in her nervous interview state. After she'd joined the company, she admitted to me that her husband had coached her on how she ought to present.. but when she arrived, it all went out the window. Thing is, by her just being open, it helped her get the job.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

heartsbeating said:


> Oh we are viewing this from different perspectives.
> 
> It seems to me that your resentment towards your husband is the greater issue than returning to work and what that entails. I'd also take a guess that perhaps you're actually disappointed with yourself for not communicating with your husband what you need to share or how to find balance/resolve in that. Or am I wrong there? You started two sentences with "I am afraid..." Maybe that's the place to start.
> 
> How does being your 'own alpha' rule out the need for your husband? Personally I think you can be your own woman and still have the need for your husband. I don't feel it's a choice of one or the other. How can you overcome your fear of closing-out your husband and building a defense wall? I'm also of the opinion that we don't need to be 'warrior-women' in the workplace. There may be opportunity for being assertive and such traits but I don't feel it needs to be a mask that's worn and overrides who you are.


Reading this, I figured it out--I think!

In my former marriage, my ex used my strength against me. I believed in shared responsibilities but he was pretty inept after the kids came along. I managed everything in the house from food to finances and for a while (after child #3) I was a SAHM.

Eventually money was so tight, I returned to work and the ex got wimpier and weirder and lazier, made less and less, and muttered things about strong women being sexy.. But we had no sex life either. And I never slept, there was so much to take care of. I found out later he wasn't even really going to work. He was doing drugs and other things. Things were frightening for me and the kids. I worked around the clock running everything. 

In the end I was working 3 jobs when I divorced him. I never got any child support. He had by then destroyed his business, intentionally, and hid the remaining assets so I got nothing but the kids. The court found him an unfit parent. 

I spent my single-mom years working 7 days a week. Yes, I was one tough lady when my now-H met me!

Now, because of recent events, H is supporting the family. I have never enjoyed this kind of arrangement before and honestly I guess I never expected to. I came of age during the fullblown feminist era, everything is equal, half and half, etc. I never imagined being supported by my H's income. 

So at first I felt guilty. Then I began realizing I liked it. It actually makes my H seem very strong, capable, loving, and powerful in my eyes. He really turns me on. I trust him to take care of the family. I have never felt that security before. 

With the thought of me going back to work, it's like I'm seeing my former marriage all over again. I feel dismal about that. I am pretty sure I won't find my H quite as powerful and sexy with him not working. 

Yeah, I think that's it... and boy do I feel guilty about even thinking that way! It's a terrible dilemma. I just don't want to go back to being my own provider-of-everything... if that's the case, why do I need a husband at all? I've already proved I don't.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Returning to work won't kill the marriage. Resentment could, though.

I didn't read your historical thread but I gather you are disappointed that he wasn't a knight in shining armor who rescued you from a bad situation at work?

If I was you, I think I would enjoy the beta aspects of your H. Looking at it from his perspective, he took on an adult woman with 3 children and has supported y'all. What a guy! Who cares if he rescued you from the work bully when he has made your life at home comfortable and apparently without b**tching about it?

Does you H have any input about you working or not? Is he happy to have you continue to stay at home?

He's a physician? I imagine that he has accumulated some assets? Retirement funds? Maybe he is tired like you are tired? You are used to running a tight ship financially from many years at a lower income so why can't you both retire, do an appropriate amt of belt tightening, and enjoy life together? Is that such a bad idea?

Down the road a few years when my H retires I picture myself doing per diem work which will give me an outlet for my passion without tying me down from travelling, etc.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

questar1 said:


> Yeah, I think that's it... and boy do I feel guilty about even thinking that way! It's a terrible dilemma. *I just don't want to go back to being my own provider-of-everything... if that's the case, why do I need a husband at all?* I've already proved I don't.


Wow! So why are you married to him?


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Wow! So why are you married to him?


I need to be able to answer exactly that question so thanks for bringing it up. It's really the heart of the matter, isn't it? 

The fact is that H made some very bad choices during our first few years together that left me feeling very unsafe, exposed, at risk, and second best. He put his exGF's ahead of me, wasn't my KISA when things went south at our nonprofit clinic, managed to get us robbed of everything while in Europe, got us stuck in the sand on an abandoned Mexican beach, and in general scared me to death. 

When my consulting work, etc., dried up and I became a SAHW for real, it suddenly dawned on me that although we'd never agreed to living on just his income, he was doing it without complaining. This new arrangement redeemed him in my eyes. 

Now he is talking about withdrawing that support, and all those other fears are still lurking. 

I endured tremendous insecurity in my former marriage. It was a living nightmare. I think this looming change is triggering that memory. 

I learned (during my D) that I could only count on myself. I earned the $$, I held the mortgage, I took care of the kids, I made all the decisions. I didn't plan on remarrying.

I am concerned that if I am the one working and he is not, I will be living a replay of that experience and I will no longer remember why I'm married. 

I realize this sounds pretty contemptible. I'm not liking myself much right now. I am genuinely concerned that once I get employed I will become a WAW.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

My FIL passed away 10 years ago at age 68. MIL has dated on a couple occasions. She says "they are all looking for someone to take care of them and I'm not signing up for that"

My brother mid-fifties divorced a few years ago. He told me recently that he won't re-marry but he would consider living with a woman because "it would be nice to have someone cook for me and take care of me".

You sound pretty self-aware and honest to me. If something happens to my marriage, I can't see myself marrying again. Might date and do the fun parts. As a formerly SAHM of 8 children for 20+ years, I'm tired of "taking care of people" who feel entitled, don't appreciate it, and take it for granted. At work there is pay, recognition, and much appreciation. 

Seems you are enjoying "taking care of him" at the moment, but he wants you out bringing in $$$ and he wants to retire. If he has no appreciation for your SAH contributions, I'm not sure the SAH option is sustainable? If he retires and doesn't take up the SAH slack,that might drive you nuts and be equally unsustainable.


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## Davelli0331 (Apr 29, 2011)

I'm (obviously) not a woman or a mother, so I can't comment on those aspects of this thread. However,

1) As you've noted, the medical field is known for its treacherous politics, backstabbing, and ruthlessness. I realize your education might be very specialized and therefore not necessarily transferable to another industry, but you'd be surprised at what you can do if you can sell yourself well, which I bet you can.

2) In spite of the thread title and OP, this isn't really an issue related to your career, it's an issue related to very deep seated resentment toward your H for various reasons.

A few things:
- Have you ever told your H how much it hurt you that he seemingly abandoned you to fight at your last job alone?
- Have you ever talked to him about why he seemingly abandoned you? Have you ever gotten his side of the story?
- Have you talked to him about any of the other things that you've mentioned?

You don't sound like you have much respect left for your H regarding how he's conducted himself in your marriage. He hasn't been the Knight In Shining Armor that you wanted. You're already detaching from him and building your list of reasons why you're doing it. You need to decide if you want to stay married to him and if so, what are the conditions of your staying.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

questar1 said:


> I need to be able to answer exactly that question so thanks for bringing it up. It's really the heart of the matter, isn't it?
> 
> The fact is that H made some very bad choices during our first few years together that left me feeling very unsafe, exposed, at risk, and second best. He put his exGF's ahead of me, wasn't my KISA when things went south at our nonprofit clinic, managed to get us robbed of everything while in Europe, got us stuck in the sand on an abandoned Mexican beach, and in general scared me to death.
> 
> ...


So I am not going to pull any punches on this one. My reading of above is that he was useful to help support your kids. As long as he continues to bring in money and financially supports you, you want him around. But that is it. You want his money, not him.

You say he redeemed himself, but that is clearly not true. You have not forgiven him and it is not clear that you want to.

Tell him that you are leaving when you get a job. I think this is your plan anyway, so be honest with him.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

questar1 said:


> IWhen my consulting work, etc., dried up and I became a SAHW for real, it suddenly dawned on me that although we'd never agreed to living on just his income, he was doing it without complaining. This new arrangement redeemed him in my eyes.


This sounds like a normal description of the need for Financial Support. Most women have this emotional need in some form or another.

Using Marriage Builder terms, your husband filled up your love bank when he was able to meet this need. It's why you were able to recapture your love for him (e.g. it redeemed him to you, you were able to fall back in love with him despite the earlier issue.)



> Now he is talking about withdrawing that support, and all those other fears are still lurking.
> 
> I endured tremendous insecurity in my former marriage. It was a living nightmare. I think this looming change is triggering that memory.
> 
> ...


Based on your previous experience, I think you are aware that you really lost feeling for your former H once he was no longer meeting your need for Financial Support. Also, it sounds like that was the start of a terrible downward spiral for your ex. I can understand why this would trigger you. I don't think is contemptible at all!


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

I don't understand how someone can be a long term victim in volunteer organization. Why didn't you just leave and find somewhere else to contribute your time? I think there is one thing you don't seem to consider when you call your husband Beta. He is the sole person who enables you to have the privelage of not working and volunteering. Without his financial support you would have to go back to work regardless of your emotional state. When you got married what was the agreement that you and your husband had about going to work? The hard edge you speak of can be managed. I have had to learn how to do it myself because I must support my family.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Enginerd said:


> I don't understand how someone can be a long term victim in volunteer organization. Why didn't you just leave and find somewhere else to contribute your time? I think there is one thing you don't seem to consider when you call your husband Beta. He is the sole person who enables you to have the privelage of not working and volunteering. Without his financial support you would have to go back to work regardless of your emotional state. When you got married what was the agreement that you and your husband had about going to work? The hard edge you speak of can be managed. I have had to learn how to do it myself because I must support my family.


Just to clear that up: I did leave. What I witnessed and endured was the work of a sociopath who took over the organization (my H and I were among the original founders). What she did is called scapegoating/mob bullying, etc., etc., and victims of this suffer terribly. 

When she had enough victims, they began to take action. There are now 2 lawsuits pending. An investigator has discovered this woman has at least 3 aliases and a false resume'.

When I alerted my H to strange dealings and my being victimized, he literally turned his back and walked away, said things similar to your questions: Why take it personally, get over it, etc. Because of all that has now come to light, he has apologized profusely (as have others in the organization) and we have discussed his thinking and motivation. We have done a lot of work in MC. Basically he avoids conflict & was afraid to get involved, so threw me under the bus which he now admits.

The problem was that he had a pattern of abandoning me and rejecting my concerns. Most painfully, he made his exGF's more important than me on several notable occasions where they demanded certain things of him that were not appropriate for a married guy, and he chose to accommodate them, not me. In order to go on in the relationship I had to try not to care. I don't think that's healthy. In fact, it's how I discovered TAM and thankfully I was told I was not crazy. Looking back, I now believe--had I received a better TAM education beforehand--I probably would have and should have walked out at that time. His behavior was absolutely unacceptable. 

I moved 3000 miles away from a good job and my excellent social connections because of HIS job. Our plans for my being hired at his place of work fell through because of huge changes due to the economy. This happened to a lot of Americans. I have been put at an enormous disadvantage, employment-wise, but it's not hopeless. 

My children are largely self-supporting due to the D. My parents assist them financially as needed. My H has been kind and supportive but not without grousing, which I am sympathetic to. 

The volunteer work, well, that was something we did together and it looked as if it would help establish the community ties for me to find "real"' work. So we shouldn't look down on that as some privilege that my H "lets" me do. I've continued to do volunteer work which is how I've found a few consulting jobs. It's a reasonable way to connect. 

Now, how can I say this? I'm in love with the guy. Do I have to find real-world reasons or can I just say that I've chosen to be with him? He is adorable. I love being with him in general, we have similar backgrounds, philosophies, and tastes. The sex is fantastic but I am aware that may not last forever. I'm dedicated to figuring out "what is this marriage thing all about?" (Joseph Campbell called it an "ordeal" for good reason!) So far we've kind of screwed it up and I don't want to keep fumbling around making mistakes. That's why I am admitting to these awkward and unattractive feelings. I would rather include them as part of the process and end up with a genuine, honest marriage that has room for all these phases and stages and aspects of humanity.

It's winter, our pipes have frozen and burst so I haven't been able to bathe for 5 days, we're out of money for the year, and here come the holidays. So maybe I'm just awfulizing for now. I think I'm just afraid of the change if/when I go back to work. And maybe that's perfectly normal! What if??


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

RoseAglow said:


> This sounds like a normal description of the need for Financial Support. Most women have this emotional need in some form or another.
> 
> Using Marriage Builder terms, your husband filled up your love bank when he was able to meet this need. It's why you were able to recapture your love for him (e.g. it redeemed him to you, you were able to fall back in love with him despite the earlier issue.)
> 
> ...


THanks so much!

When I read this I realized that most feelings get better once they're simply validated. 

I am probably afraid of something that isn't going to be as bad as I thought. YES, I've had some bad experiences so far and YES my H screwed up. 

But I really appreciate knowing that there are predictable triggers figuring into this as well. My H made me feel insecure emotionally, and now here comes another threat to the temporary financial security I've had. Of course I am going to freak out--for a while. 

I am starting to feel braver. Maybe these are all just normal fears that I am trying to find excuses for.


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

questar1 said:


> My children are largely self-supporting due to the D. My parents assist them financially as needed. My H has been kind and supportive but not without grousing, which I am sympathetic to.


Why did your children need financial support from your parents? And if you were staying at home I assume your husband paid for the house & living expenses which woudl include for your children, so I don't think it is very generous of you to say he did not support them financially.



questar1 said:


> It's winter, our pipes have frozen and burst so I haven't been able to bathe for 5 days, we're out of money for the year, and here come the holidays. So maybe I'm just awfulizing for now. I think I'm just afraid of the change if/when I go back to work. And maybe that's perfectly normal! What if??


How is it possibly you have no money for the remainder year? Your husband is a doctor looking to retire and you have no money to fix burst pipes?

Finally I would say you have a lot of education, maybe too much? You have several undergraduate degrees + PHD + getting additional certifications. It doesn't leave a lot of time to do actual work does it? I mean how many of your adult years have you worked a regular job rather than go to school? I wonder if that is partly why you are fearful of the prospect?


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

questar1 said:


> I
> When my consulting work, etc., dried up and I became a SAHW for real, it suddenly dawned on me that although we'd never agreed to living on just his income, he was doing it without complaining. This new arrangement redeemed him in my eyes.
> 
> Now he is talking about withdrawing that support, and all those other fears are still lurking.


First of all I assume your husband has some retirement income otherwise it seems like neither of you could retire .

Second, would it help to consider he has been working a lot longer than you, and in a stressful environment (he is a medical doctor?). I don't think early 60s is really that young for a dr to retire and if I married someone older/younger than me I wouldn't expect them to defer their retirement just because I still had another 10 years to go...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

questar1 said:


> THanks so much!
> 
> When I read this I realized that most feelings get better once they're simply validated.
> 
> ...


I am trying to figure out how him not bringing in a paycheck takes away from your financial security. I presume he has savings, retirement and social security. So will that not cover things? Why is his value tied to his paycheck? How can this guy who can afford to retire now and makes so much money, not have any cash now and none until the end of the year to fix frozen water pipes?

It is clear that you still have a lot of resentment. When he is supporting you financially, that tips the scales, but when he doesn't, it is equally clear that you don't see why you want him around. 

Remember, when I asked why you married him, you did not jump in with his good qualities or even that you loved him. You went straight to all the times he has failed you, behaved badly and left you feeling unsafe. The only good trait that you named was his paycheck. That says volumes.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

questar1 said:


> Just to clear that up: I did leave. What I witnessed and endured was the work of a sociopath who took over the organization (my H and I were among the original founders). What she did is called scapegoating/mob bullying, etc., etc., and victims of this suffer terribly.
> 
> When she had enough victims, they began to take action. There are now 2 lawsuits pending. An investigator has discovered this woman has at least 3 aliases and a false resume'.
> 
> ...


Your rationalization hamster has a PhD and your logic is anything but linear. Are you on any meds? So you're out of money and you still think going back to work will damage your marriage? Did you hear yourself say that? I think you need to start asking yourself why you dramatize everything in such an extreme fashion. You keep calling your self a victim of a sociopath yet she actually had no power or real authority over you. There are sociopaths at every major workplace. They're called CEO's. It's part of life. If you live in a third world country you would witness much worse including dead bodies on the street. Your perception is very skewed and I think you should go back to work ASAP so you can level out.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm trying to find what's helpful in the criticism.

FWIW I worked the entire time I was earning each of my graduate degrees as well as in between (a span of 30 years). Somewhere in there I also found the time to have 3 kids and do a lot of community work as well. After the D, I qualified on my own for a mortgage to buy back my own home. My kids (who all have jobs BTW and are all in school) receive from my parents what would have eventually come to me as inheritance. It was a choice we made. I wanted to take the burden off my H. But of course in a marriage it's hard not to share resources and he is a very generous, kind person. For instance, we're all on his health insurance. 

I didn't say we did not have money to fix the pipes. A friend is helping. But we have not had plumbing for 6 days now and it's stressful (we probably won't have water for at least a few more days). And the truth is that we're quite strapped right now. I don't think that's unusual either for the end of the year and what we've been through. It's all "just one more thing!"

I think it is fair to be criticized for being spoiled and selfish. That's partly why I came here--for a reality check. I asked for it! What I'm hearing is "you have nothing to complain about, you're spoiled, now get back to work, it could be worse." Fair enough--but it is also true that we never know someone's whole story, and invalidating what little we do know can cause damage rather than building that person toward a solution. 

Anyway I am actually feeling a lot more like I can go out there and find a way to contribute as well as feel rewarded and appreciated--without the resentment. It's been a very tough year. I'm ready for something different.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

questar1 said:


> I'm trying to find what's helpful in the criticism.
> 
> FWIW I worked the entire time I was earning each of my graduate degrees as well as in between (a span of 30 years). Somewhere in there I also found the time to have 3 kids and do a lot of community work as well. After the D, I qualified on my own for a mortgage to buy back my own home. My kids (who all have jobs BTW and are all in school) receive from my parents what would have eventually come to me as inheritance. It was a choice we made. I wanted to take the burden off my H. But of course in a marriage it's hard not to share resources and he is a very generous, kind person. For instance, we're all on his health insurance.
> 
> ...


Everyone has their own story. My childhood was awful and I could go on and on about how it affected my life. However, I choose not to be a victim and to embrace the life I have now. I am the master of my destiny. No one else makes my choices. Once I make a choice I own it forever. Your what I call a Perma-Victim who always has an excuse. The reason I replied to you is I thought that you might have a chance to wakeup. Your obviously intelligent but the logic you use to justify your complaints is circular and foggy. Your problems are what are commonly refered to as first world problems. Your struggle is not about life and death. Its about why you believe your entitlements are important to everyone else.


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

Enginerd said:


> Everyone has their own story. My childhood was awful and I could go on and on about how it affected my life. However, I choose not to be a victim and to embrace the life I have now. I am the master of my destiny. No one else makes my choices. Once I make a choice I own it forever. Your what I call a Perma-Victim who always has an excuse. The reason I replied to you is I thought that you might have a chance to wakeup. Your obviously intelligent but the logic you use to justify your complaints is circular and foggy. Your problems are what are commonly refered to as first world problems. Your struggle is not about life and death. Its about why you believe your entitlements are important to everyone else.


It's true, you're right, one way not to remain victimized by a raw deal in life is to get tough--and look down on others who aren't as tough, and to belittle their whiny suffering. The other is to recognize the universal humanity in each person who shares what suffering feels like, to be willing to be open and vulnerable. 

The first approach has some admirable aspects to it but runs the risk of turning you into a living reaction to whatever it is you survived rather than a healed and whole person. But to me what is the greatest risk is that you invalidate others and spread pain rather than hope. 


From EQI.org: 
We regularly invalidate others because we ourselves were, and are often invalidated, so it has become habitual. Below are a few of the many ways we are invalidated:

We are told we shouldn't feel the way we feel
We are dictated not to feel the way we feel
We are told we are too sensitive, too "dramatic"
We are ignored
We are judged
We are led to believe there is something wrong with us for feeling how we feel

You Can't Heal an Emotional Wound with Logic

People with high IQ and low EQ tend to use logic to address emotional issues. They may say, "You are not being rational. There is no reason for you to feel the way you do. Let's look at the facts." Businesses, for example, and "professionals" are traditionally out of balance towards logic at the expense of emotions. This tends to alienate people and diminish their potential.

Actually, all emotions do have a basis in reality, and feelings are facts, fleeting though they may be. But trying to dress an emotional wound, with logic tends to either confuse, sadden or infuriate a person. Or it may eventually isolate them from their feelings, with a resulting loss of major part of their natural intelligence.

Remember:

You can't solve an emotional problem, or heal an emotional wound, with logic alone.

There are many forms of invalidation. Most of them are so insidious that we don't even know what is happening. We know that something doesn't feel good, but we sometimes can't put our finger on it. We have been conditioned to think that invalidation is "normal." Indeed, it is extremely common, but it is certainly not healthy.

I have heard parents and teachers call children:

dramatic, crybabies, whiners, whingers, too sensitive, worry warts, drama queens

I have also heard them say things like: "He cries at the drop of a hat." One teacher said "When she starts to cry, I just ignore her and eventually she stops." Another said, "When one kid's crying is disrupting the lesson, I tell them to go cry in the hall till they can pull themselves back together again."

All these labels and statements are invalidating and do emotional harm to children and sensitive teens and adults.

Our world will be a safer place when we learn to stop invalidating one another.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

questar1 said:


> It's true, you're right, one way not to remain victimized by a raw deal in life is to get tough--and look down on others who aren't as tough, and to belittle their whiny suffering. The other is to recognize the universal humanity in each person who shares what suffering feels like, to be willing to be open and vulnerable.
> 
> The first approach has some admirable aspects to it but runs the risk of turning you into a living reaction to whatever it is you survived rather than a healed and whole person. But to me what is the greatest risk is that you invalidate others and spread pain rather than hope.
> 
> ...


Nothing but blather here. Its interesting that you used an example of a child being invalidated. You're an adult. I wasn't looking down on you. I think you've been convinced you have a right to complain about minor problems by our brain dead PC media. Sorry if I offended you. Carry on with your misery. 

Peace


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Are you fearful that your husbands retirement savings will not support him and that once he retires there is no real possibility of him reversing that decision?

If I was uncertain about my ability to support my family and my partner was not prepared for even their retirement I would be freaking out too...

Is the age difference also bothering you at all, he is at a different stage of life than you and that must be new.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

greenfern said:


> Are you fearful that your husbands retirement savings will not support him and that once he retires there is no real possibility of him reversing that decision?
> 
> If I was uncertain about my ability to support my family and my partner was not prepared for even their retirement I would be freaking out too...
> 
> ...


Oh and I didn't mean you are incapable of supporting your familit clearly you have done that, but going back into the workforce after your recent experience would be nerve wracking and it sounds like there is uncertainty about jobs in your industry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

Enginerd said:


> Nothing but blather here. Its interesting that you used an example of a child being invalidated. You're an adult. I wasn't looking down on you. I think you've been convinced you have a right to complain about minor problems by our brain dead PC media. Sorry if I offended you. Carry on with your misery.
> 
> Peace


If people on tam were only "allowed" to complain about non first world problems it would be a much smaller forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenfern (Oct 20, 2012)

I just talked to my SO about this thread and he read through it. His analysis is totally different than mine...here it is.

You have grown up indoctrinated with protestant work ethic, you mentioned in your family it was expected you would work hard, "succeed", retire the day you die, etc. In fact you show a bit of disdain for your husbands side of the family in their expectation of "normal" retirement.

Recently you have discovered another way of life, where you don't have to work so hard & your self worth is not associated with work success. You don't want to let that go & return to your previous "woman warrior".  

In re-reading the thread, I actually think he has some really good points. You haven't really answered my other questions though which are very relevant.

- why does your husband want you to work? for money?
- are you more unhappy about your husband retiring or you returning to work? What if you could afford not to work again, would that be better?
- does your husband have enough money to retire if he were on his own? Or does he expect you to "fund" his retirement..


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

You write really long posts but it's very difficult to get at the point of them. You're also avoiding questions that would make things clearer.

-your husband is in his early 60s. Can he afford to retire? What are his savings and assets? Does retiring mean not working at all? My 65 year old father retired from full-time work three years ago, but is still consulting, writing and working for various organisations when he wants to

-can you afford to not go back to work? Will it only be possible if your husband continues to work full time? For how long? If he is in his early 60s now I can imagine he'd like to have at least a few healthy retirement years, especially as he loves to travel

You are dressing up what you want as some kind of alpha male/submissive female/pseudo scientific magical nonsense. You don't want to work. Fine. Neither does your husband. Fine. Why should you get your way just because you're female? 

You want to stay married you'll need to compromise. Both work part time. Work six months of the year, travel the other six. 

And I don't need another long description of the workplace bullying and your husband's failure to rescue you. I remember your past thread. People fvck up. They do what's easiest. Then they try and apologise and make up for it. You're not a martyr, decide whether to let go of all that resentment or hang onto it forever.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

questar1 said:


> I moved 3000 miles away from a good job and my excellent social connections because of HIS job. Our plans for my being hired at his place of work fell through because of huge changes due to the economy. This happened to a lot of Americans. I have been put at an enormous disadvantage, employment-wise, but it's not hopeless.


After your H retires, can you move back to where you came from where you probably would still have some of your connections? If he's not working, you don't have to stay where you are.

Can you do the same work but move the venue from, say, a hospital to a corporation?

Can you use the skills you have to move into a different field? I don't know what you do, but, for example, if you're in medical research, maybe a pharma company would be interested in an expert researcher. Or maybe a non-profit could use your skills at putting grant proposals together. Maybe a college would be interested in you teaching a class in something. 

Can you start your own business?

Are you open to any options that include working, or are you just done with work?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Your husband has a deep-seated childhood issue to need to 'emulate' his father and retire just like his dad. It has NOTHING to do with you, and he probably has no idea it's happening. However, it IS happening, and his 'view' of 'happiness' includes doing what his dad did. If he can't follow his dad's path, he is a failure. He probably is completely unaware of this 'need' of his.

You need a therapist to work through this.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

There's nothing unusual about someone wanting to retire at 63. Why pathologise it? Why is it an issue that needs to be 'worked through' in therapy?

I certainly have no intention of working full time when I'm in my 60s if I can possibly avoid it.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

Someone may have already said this, but what about some type of work that affords you your independence and doesn't tie you to a particular organization every day?

Something freelance? Consulting? Your H doesn't want to start a business, but could you on your own?

I think you may keep yearning for your H to be a provider and protector but if he doesn't see that as his role, you'll just continue to be disappointed. I don't know, is it worth clinging to the marriage?


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

On a side note I'm interested to hear about what happened in Europe and on the beach in Mexico...

Sooo he wants to do all this adventure travel but you have to be the one to plan and figure out everything (basically, be the Mom), is that it?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Turning this on it's head slightly for a moment, is it possible that from your husband's perspective, when he met you, you were working multiple jobs, secured the mortgage, had your education, all of these things that would indicate your independence and ability to financially stand your own ground for your family? Was that side of you attractive to him?

I can't help but wonder if he thought / expected you'd handle the work situation that arose without needing his help? I'm asking this, however it is in the past now. Resentment is a mutha.

Just as you fear losing attraction for your husband if he's not working, is it possible he'd lose attraction for you if you're not stepping up in that way also, to help him?

I'd consider 63 a reasonable age to retire also - however a financial plan in place for that to happen.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

questar1 said:


> I'm trying to find what's helpful in the criticism.


Or are you picking and choosing what you want to hear?



> FWIW I worked the entire time I was earning each of my graduate degrees as well as in between (a span of 30 years). Somewhere in there I also found the time to have 3 kids and do a lot of community work as well. After the D, I qualified on my own for a mortgage to buy back my own home. My kids (who all have jobs BTW and are all in school) receive from my parents what would have eventually come to me as inheritance. It was a choice we made. I wanted to take the burden off my H. But of course in a marriage it's hard not to share resources and he is a very generous, kind person. For instance, we're all on his health insurance.


Again, he is wonderful when he contributes financially.



> I didn't say we did not have money to fix the pipes. A friend is helping. But we have not had plumbing for 6 days now and it's stressful (we probably won't have water for at least a few more days). And the truth is that we're quite strapped right now. I don't think that's unusual either for the end of the year and what we've been through. It's all "just one more thing!"


You sure implied it. Your exact words were "It's winter, our pipes have frozen and burst so I haven't been able to bathe for 5 days, we're out of money for the year, and here come the holidays." I don't know how else to read the pipes burst and we are out of money other than you don't have money to fix them.



> I think it is fair to be criticized for being spoiled and selfish. That's partly why I came here--for a reality check. I asked for it! What I'm hearing is "you have nothing to complain about, you're spoiled, now get back to work, it could be worse." Fair enough--but it is also true that we never know someone's whole story, and invalidating what little we do know can cause damage rather than building that person toward a solution.


Not what I am saying. What i have asked is the reality behind your assertions. How is he retiring? What does he plan to live on? What assets does he have? I don't know if what you are feeling is reasonable, because you refuse to answer those questions.



> Anyway I am actually feeling a lot more like I can go out there and find a way to contribute as well as feel rewarded and appreciated--without the resentment. It's been a very tough year. I'm ready for something different.


What about your husband? Glad you can work and not feel a victim, but what about him and what he wants to do? I don't see why the clear resentment you have will suddenly disappear. Now that he is not contributing in the manner that you require, why will you respect him or need him? In you own words, what will be the point in being married?


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## questar1 (Aug 4, 2011)

TAG: 
This discussion has devolved into an unfortunate focus on finances, an interesting interpretation of what is, in reality, a question of energetics.... the yin vs the yang. 

It's a spiritual issue. Far more important than money. 

No matter what I say, it seems to be an invitation to further belittling and invalidation based on assumptions that beg my explaining personal information about family finances. 

But those discussions rightfully take place within the marriage, occasionally involving our accountant and estate attorney. I really don't require this outside speculation on what might be true about our financial status or my attitude about it. 

Having married in midlife, H& I have a complex financial situation, complete with aging parents, a shifting job scene, semi-dependent children, weird inheritance stuff, multiple properties, and really, really lousy plumbing. 

So my concerns cannot be solely for my H's continued financial support; that's incredibly simplistic despite the rhetorical corner I've apparently been driven into. It's about faith, trust, and the deeper core of what it means to be married "for better or worse" and the dangerous assumptions men and women bring into that quest for happiness. 

The good news is that I don't bring my fears here without discussing them at home. The issues as I have stated them are quite real and unfortunate. It's been a truly awful year (or two) for us. My doubts and concerns, according to my H, are legitimate. We have had a LOT to learn together. 

No, it's not about the money--all such issues are rarely what they appear to be on the surface. It's about being partners in what we do and respecting the differing needs each of us has for a sense of security now and into the future. Anticipating retirement is a big, big, big deal. PTSD is too. And so is totally exploded plumbing that eats up one's savings just as the holidays hit. If you have no sympathy for that simple reality, this discussion is even more useless than it seems. It's just mean-spirited.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

We're just trying to go on the little bit of information you've supplied, and fill in the blanks. The more you tell us, the more accurate advice we can give.

IMO, what's really at stake here is that you each have differing views of what your life should look like. If the two of you can't compromise and agree on something, it just might kill your marriage. You haven't been married that long, and so late in life, so it's something to consider that you just aren't correctly matched.

Can you peel back all the layers to understand why you each feel mishandled?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

questar1 said:


> TAG:
> This discussion has devolved into an unfortunate focus on finances, an interesting interpretation of what is, in reality, a question of energetics.... the yin vs the yang.
> 
> It's a spiritual issue. Far more important than money.


I note that you raised the issues of finances any number of times in your posts. That was the focus of your issues. To now claim that I have misunderstood and that it is really a “spiritual issue” is rewriting what information you provided.



> No matter what I say, it seems to be an invitation to further belittling and invalidation based on assumptions that beg my explaining personal information about family finances.
> 
> But those discussions rightfully take place within the marriage, occasionally involving our accountant and estate attorney. I really don't require this outside speculation on what might be true about our financial status or my attitude about it.


I am sure you don’t. But you raise an issue that, on its face, seemed unlikely, and you use it as implicit support for your feelings. It is natural that those to whom you have gone to for advice will ask questions to better understand those circumstances.



> Having married in midlife, H& I have a complex financial situation, complete with aging parents, a shifting job scene, semi-dependent children, weird inheritance stuff, multiple properties, and really, really lousy plumbing.
> 
> So my concerns cannot be solely for my H's continued financial support; that's incredibly simplistic despite the rhetorical corner I've apparently been driven into. It's about faith, trust, and the deeper core of what it means to be married "for better or worse" and the dangerous assumptions men and women bring into that quest for happiness.
> 
> ...


I do have sympathy. I have had pipes burst and it is truly not fun. 

So I will now ask what you really want from posting here. You imply that you want advice. a cynic would look at your posts and see you looking for affirmation of your feelings, and when you did not get it, playing the victim card to deflect tough questions that might expose your biased view.

I hope that is not the case. Tunera is correct that you have different views of what you want life to look like going forward. I asked questions to better understand how the things your husband is doing effect that life. Knowing those facts helps us to give suggestions. If you truly have no savings to fix the pipes, I wonder how your husband has enough to retire on given his young age. But if that is not accurate, then I would have different suggestions. 

Above all, be honest with yourself. You say you love him, but continue to come back to him working and providing for you. If he stops working, how will you honestly view him. Figure out now if that will cause you to lose respect for him. In view of the resentment that you still have, it is better to figure that out now.


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