# How do I get her back?



## BioFury

So I've been talking with a woman, and both of us like each other a lot (we did, at least). But I said something, that she took in the total opposite way that I intended, and now won't speak to me. Here's the timeline.

At the beginning of the week, we were talking on the phone about something. I'm a deep thinker, and love having theoretical discussions about subjects, outside of their personal application. So I asked her what she thought about a particular viewpoint, that was contrary to the one she holds. I did this purely from a desire to spark a discussion, and see if we could learn more about the subject together. I played devil's advocate when she made particular assertions, but not in an aggressive way, but merely asking her what she thought about the counter-point. But she, being very passionate about the issue, took it as me taking the opposite position. I'm not going to specify what the issue is, but suffice to say that it's a very important, very sensitive issue.

The strange thing, is that she didn't react negatively right away. We got together for a date two days later, and I thought we were at a "transition point" in our relationship. I was ready to progress things, so I asked her how she felt about me, and the relationship between us. She said that she liked me as much as ever, and that her feelings had only grown. That she wanted things to work out between us.

Shortly after said date, she sends me a text, telling me it's over. As the reason, the gives me the issue I already described above. And tells me that I clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them. When that was never ever my intent. I just wanted to have a discussion, and never meant to attack her point of view.

So, needless to say, her text nearly gave me a heart attack. And I've frantically been trying to explain, but she just responded by saying her feelings for me are gone, as a result of my disrespect towards her convictions. And asked me to stop contacting her. 

How do I get through to her, and win her back? What can I do to revive the feelings that were there, before this misunderstanding took place?


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## As'laDain

she is not the one for you. you will find yourself dancing on eggshells if you stay with someone who is willing to throw you away for simply asking questions, let alone holding a different opinion. 

she doesnt want anyone who can think differently than she does, and i doubt you want someone who will abandon you at a moments notice. thank her for letting you know who she is, and then move on.


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## Personal

The question you should be asking is why do you want to get back with someone, who no longer wants to have anything to do with you?


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## uhtred

Nothing is worth being with a "land mine" partner. Its horrible, you can't say anything spontaneous without carefully studying / filtering it to see if it might cause offense.


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## BioFury

Personal said:


> The question you should be asking is why do you want to get back with someone, who no longer wants to have anything to do with you?


Because I'm not a prideful, or spiteful person, who would let someone's logical reaction to a misunderstanding, get in the way of a good relationship?


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## Elizabeth001

BioFury said:


> Because I'm not a prideful, or spiteful person, who would let someone's logical reaction to a misunderstanding, get in the way of a good relationship?




Well that makes one of you 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lila

If the issue is one which affects her and/or her family directly, then she might be in self protection mode. 

For example, illegal migrants and/or migration. I know several people on both sides of the argument who are directly or indirectly affected by the topic. Because of the nature of the subject matter, they tend to be very cautious of who they allow into their lives. Anyone who is not on their side is considered dangerous and ostracized. Even discussing the topic as an exercise in debate is considered dangerous. 

I would say if you feel strongly about this woman, then give her some time to cool off. Let her know how you feel about her and that you will accept if she doesn't want to see you again. But also tell her you think it's a shame to see such a good relationship go to waste .


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## BioFury

uhtred said:


> Nothing is worth being with a "land mine" partner. Its horrible, you can't say anything spontaneous without carefully studying / filtering it to see if it might cause offense.


Yeah, I've been with a landmine before. But I'm not sure this woman is one of those, however. The subject we were discussing was extremely important to them, and the things she _thought _I meant were pretty bad. And I totally get how she could think that's what I meant.

But yes, her handling of the situation, still leaves a lot to be desired. If she gives things a second chance, I'll certainly be on the lookout for any more landmine type behavior.


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## VibrantWings

I would suggest give her a week or so to calm down and then perhaps send a polite email explaining your side of things. I react different to people in writing...as I suspect it is the same for most people. 
If no cigar, then it's good this happened in the beginning.....


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## Openminded

You explained. She doesn't care. Maybe she'll change her mind and maybe she won't but that'll obviously be her choice. In other words, don't give in to the temptation to push to fix this. She'll decide on her own if she thinks it's fixable. 

For future reference, not everyone would react the way she did but some don't like having their beliefs challenged. And that's especially true when it's very hot topics. If that's important to you, find out how someone feels about debating their beliefs before you get attached to them.


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## VibrantWings

I think in all fairness ot the lady, we really don't know what was said between them. 
Without knowing the subject matter and all the details and who said what and how....it's not fair to assume she's a hothead. He admitted to playing Devil's advocate, which I've always seen as kind of..."risky". 
She is just getting to know him and he pushed....perhaps too hard. Not liking the Devil is pretty normal to me. *shrugs*

To the OP, was the "important subject matter" a woman's issue?

As to the change of heart after the conversation with you on a date, it sounds like she shared with a friend....


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## OnTheFly

If romantic comedies taught me anything, it's that situations like this ALWAYS turns out good. 

This'll probably work itself out at an airport or train station along with a grand gesture of feelings and emotion.

Fear not!

Seriously though, you crossed a boundary of hers (intentionally or not, matters not) and it's over. 

The cynic in me, says save your deep philosophical, devil-advocacy discussions for your guy friends.


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## VibrantWings

OnTheFly said:


> If romantic comedies taught me anything, it's that situations like this ALWAYS turns out good.
> 
> This'll probably work itself out at an airport or train station along with a grand gesture of feelings and emotion.
> 
> Fear not!
> 
> Seriously though, you crossed a boundary of hers (intentionally or not, matters not) and it's over.
> 
> The cynic in me, says save your deep philosophical, devil-advocacy discussions for your guy friends.


You have won the intranets tonight...thanks for the chuckle :smthumbup:


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## TheDudeLebowski

Let her go man. She's not the one. I understand how you feel, but your OP reminds me of a puppy chasing their tail. If you manage to catch it, you'll realize it's not what you wanted anyway and drop it immediately.


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## lifeistooshort

This strikes me as a compatibility issue. 

You like to discuss and debate.....she doesn't. Lots of people don't.....lots of people can't. It requires a level of open mindedness and critical thinking ability that not everyone has. 

If she's so close minded that she can't even discuss the issue enough to tell you why she thinks you're wrong then she's not a good match for one who likes to debate.

I'm like you....I like to debate and love thoughtful discussion. My ex didn't....he got deeply offended if you didn't agree with him and took it as a personal attack. It was one of our many issues and caused a lot of unhappiness.

Maybe you should let her go. Even if you get her back you'll have to forever watch what you say....it's no way to live.


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## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> So I've been talking with a woman, and both of us like each other a lot (we did, at least). But I said something, that she took in the total opposite way that I intended, and now won't speak to me. Here's the timeline.
> 
> At the beginning of the week, we were talking on the phone about something. I'm a deep thinker, and love having theoretical discussions about subjects, outside of their personal application. So I asked her what she thought about a particular viewpoint, that was contrary to the one she holds. I did this purely from a desire to spark a discussion, and see if we could learn more about the subject together. I played devil's advocate when she made particular assertions, but not in an aggressive way, but merely asking her what she thought about the counter-point. But she, being very passionate about the issue, took it as me taking the opposite position. I'm not going to specify what the issue is, but suffice to say that it's a very important, very sensitive issue.
> 
> The strange thing, is that she didn't react negatively right away. We got together for a date two days later, and I thought we were at a "transition point" in our relationship. I was ready to progress things, so I asked her how she felt about me, and the relationship between us. She said that she liked me as much as ever, and that her feelings had only grown. That she wanted things to work out between us.
> 
> Shortly after said date, she sends me a text, telling me it's over. As the reason, the gives me the issue I already described above. And tells me that I clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them. When that was never ever my intent. I just wanted to have a discussion, and never meant to attack her point of view.
> 
> So, needless to say, her text nearly gave me a heart attack. And I've frantically been trying to explain, but she just responded by saying her feelings for me are gone, as a result of my disrespect towards her convictions. And asked me to stop contacting her.
> 
> How do I get through to her, and win her back? What can I do to revive the feelings that were there, before this misunderstanding took place?


Dude, you do NOT want this woman back. Right now you're understandably stunned, but think long term: How are you going to have a relationship with a person who will be upset and offended and not only not show it, but tell you the opposite, and then later blind side you like this without even giving you a chance to explain yourself. And then refuses to listed to your attempts at explanation?

You said yourself you like conversations like that and deep thinking. How happy will you really be in a LTR with someone so touchy and mentally rigid? How will *you * get to relax and be *you *with her?

I'm sure it's disappointing and bewildering when things seemed so great, and then BOOM. But be glad she showed her crazy as early as she did.


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## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> Because I'm not a prideful, or spiteful person, who would let someone's logical reaction to a misunderstanding, get in the way of a good relationship?


I'm sorry Bio -- but where do you find LOGIC in her reaction?

Does a LOGICAL person pretend everything is fine -- even SAY that it is, when they are really upset?
Assuming it took her awhile to digest and pin point the "upset" she was feeling, does a LOGICAL person refuse to even consider the explanation you've given that you were playing devil's advocate because you were interested in the topic and her thoughts on it and had NO IDEA she felt attacked or disrespected? Wouldn't a LOGICAL person realize that they gave only positive feedback at the time and later so this might very well, QUITE LOGICALLY, just be a misunderstanding? Does a LOGICAL person accuse others of disrespect when all they are doing is asking QUESTIONS on a topic about which they are passionate?


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## WorkingWife

one more thing @BioFury -- to actually answer your question "how do I get her back?" 

Assuming you did tell her that you don't disrespect her opinion at all and you had no idea you were offending her by being curious about a topic about which she is passionate, I think your best chance at getting her back is to let her be. Go dark on her. If you pursue her right now, it won't be attractive to her. I definitely would NOT grovel, as you did nothing wrong. Maybe send her one message like:

I'm really disappointed you no longer want to be friends because I really enjoy your company and loved talking with you, and in fact, thought we were having a nice, stimulating conversation. Unfortunately you see see things differently so I'll let it be. I wish you the best. Consider the door open if you change your perspective on this.

Then go on with your life. If she does come back around you may find you're no longer that attracted to her.


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## sunsetmist

BioFury said:


> The strange thing, is that she didn't react negatively right away. We got together for a date two days later, and I thought we were at a "transition point" in our relationship. I was ready to progress things, so I asked her how she felt about me, and the relationship between us. She said that she liked me as much as ever, and that her feelings had only grown. That she wanted things to work out between us.
> 
> Shortly after said date, she sends me a text, telling me it's over. As the reason, the gives me the issue I already described above. And tells me that I clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them. When that was never ever my intent. I just wanted to have a discussion, and never meant to attack her point of view.
> 
> So, needless to say, her text nearly gave me a heart attack. And I've frantically been trying to explain, but she just responded by saying her feelings for me are gone, as a result of my disrespect towards her convictions. And asked me to stop contacting her.


I don't disagree with others, BUT seems to me like something is missing between paragraph one and two above. Maybe, she was scared when you tried to 'progress' things. Maybe someone else influenced her. If she truly cared for you, IMO she would not cut you off so acutely. Refusal to communicate is a serious flaw, especially in a 'loved' one. Breakup by text is shallow and an easy way to escape truth. In other words, I think there is something more involved.


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## Personal

BioFury said:


> Because I'm not a prideful, or spiteful person, who would let someone's logical reaction to a misunderstanding, get in the way of a good relationship?


Being prideful or spiteful has nothing to do with it.

She has made it clear to you that she doesn't want to have anything to do with you moving forward. Whether that is from a misunderstanding or a greater understanding is a moot point.

For your own sake, you ought to leave her be. Since healthy relationships aren't built upon having any participant, who doesn't want to be part of that relationship.


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## TheDudeLebowski

lifeistooshort said:


> This strikes me as a compatibility issue.
> 
> You like to discuss and debate.....she doesn't. Lots of people don't.....lots of people can't. It requires a level of open mindedness and critical thinking ability that not everyone has.
> 
> If she's so close minded that she can't even discuss the issue enough to tell you why she thinks you're wrong then she's not a good match for one who likes to debate.
> 
> I'm like you....I like to debate and love thoughtful discussion. My ex didn't....he got deeply offended if you didn't agree with him and took it as a personal attack. It was one of our many issues and caused a lot of unhappiness.
> 
> Maybe you should let her go. Even if you get her back you'll have to forever watch what you say....it's no way to live.



To be fair, my wife isn't the type to debate and argue either, yet I am. She's also super Christian and I'm not so much. My beliefs don't really follow a specific teaching. Also, she's very straight laced, and I'm far from it. Like FAR from it. Yet we work well together. But I do understand we are somewhat of an anomaly.


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## TheDudeLebowski

sunsetmist said:


> I don't disagree with others, BUT seems to me like something is missing between paragraph one and two above. Maybe, she was scared when you tried to 'progress' things. * Maybe someone else influenced her.* If she truly cared for you, IMO she would not cut you off so acutely. Refusal to communicate is a serious flaw, especially in a 'loved' one. Breakup by text is shallow and an easy way to escape truth. In other words, I think there is something more involved.


She's got a GF in her ear, thats all. Dudes have wingmen. Ladies have **** block friends. Tis the way of things. I'm not mad at it, its just how it is...


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## In Absentia

sunsetmist said:


> Maybe, she was scared when you tried to 'progress' things. Maybe someone else influenced her. If she truly cared for you, IMO she would not cut you off so acutely.



I agree with this. She didn't want to progress any further and what she told you is just an excuse.


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## MattMatt

BioFury said:


> So I've been talking with a woman, and both of us like each other a lot (we did, at least). But I said something, that she took in the total opposite way that I intended, and now won't speak to me. Here's the timeline.
> 
> At the beginning of the week, we were talking on the phone about something. I'm a deep thinker, and love having theoretical discussions about subjects, outside of their personal application. So I asked her what she thought about a particular viewpoint, that was contrary to the one she holds. I did this purely from a desire to spark a discussion, and see if we could learn more about the subject together. I played devil's advocate when she made particular assertions, but not in an aggressive way, but merely asking her what she thought about the counter-point. But she, being very passionate about the issue, took it as me taking the opposite position. I'm not going to specify what the issue is, but suffice to say that it's a very important, very sensitive issue.
> 
> The strange thing, is that she didn't react negatively right away. We got together for a date two days later, and I thought we were at a "transition point" in our relationship. I was ready to progress things, so I asked her how she felt about me, and the relationship between us. She said that she liked me as much as ever, and that her feelings had only grown. That she wanted things to work out between us.
> 
> Shortly after said date, she sends me a text, telling me it's over. As the reason, the gives me the issue I already described above. And tells me that I clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them. When that was never ever my intent. I just wanted to have a discussion, and never meant to attack her point of view.
> 
> So, needless to say, her text nearly gave me a heart attack. And I've frantically been trying to explain, but she just responded by saying her feelings for me are gone, as a result of my disrespect towards her convictions. And asked me to stop contacting her.
> 
> How do I get through to her, and win her back? What can I do to revive the feelings that were there, before this misunderstanding took place?


Well, let's see. Her opinions are valid. Other opinions are not valid.

Good luck with having a relationship with someone like that.

However send her a letter or email clarifying your position and see what happens.


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## ReformedHubby

Are you sure the debate was the reason? You said you had a date shortly after that and things were fine. Not trying to make you feel bad by saying this, but are you sure its just the comments you made? She may not be feeling the same as you and just wanted a way to end it. Just a thought.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Yep, the breakup may not, likely is not related to the content of the "lively discussion" at all.

If anything it's related to the fact she or some gf she talks about you with, thought you were being disagreeable in general. 

Or, some gf influenced her to "stay single so she has a party friend" unrelated to you at all.

And dude, you should know even if you feel you've convinced a gf logically she's "wrong" she may agree but still doesn't. 

Logic in winning a disagreement with a gf never applies as a relationship promoting interaction.

Now, if you recognize you'll never convince her to come back, and have successful let her go (as you should) you can throw a couple hail marys for entertainment and learning only. 

By, just being yourself, maybe where you two first met, or short light non serious comments to her in passing, if you see her.

But no texting. She has to see you, if you happen to bump into her, you may end up seeing her a couple more times after SHE asks what have u been up to. 

However she really doesn't seem like a ltr connection.


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## She'sStillGotIt

BioFury said:


> How do I get through to her, and win her back? What can I do to revive the feelings that were there, before this misunderstanding took place?


I'm going to try to say this in the most neutral way I can. If she's a snowflake, let her go for your own good. Trust me. She'll always be triggered about something, and you'll always be dealing with her bull****.


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## Cooper

Why so secretive of the discussion topic? 

From my own life experiences I will say playing the devil's advocate can end up reflecting badly on you. If you question the norm many can't separate your debate questions from your opinion, suddenly you're labeled as the guy who supports.......whatever.

So the discussion may be the reason, or just another piece that swayed her feelings. Regardless....she is done with you, except it and leave her alone.


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## arbitrator

*Unless you're in law school or in a legal adversarial setting, the playing of "devils advocate" is never advisable unless, of course, you know them awfully well ~ and even then, with some well thought out preclusions!*


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## ReformedHubby

OP, I hope you don't mind but I went back and looked at some of your old threads. How long have you known this woman? Are you dating? I get the impression that you are just starting to figure out this whole dating and meeting new people stuff. From my perspective it seems that you are bit out in front of those that you have an interest in. Meaning you are relationship ready and they are in the "getting to know you" phase. Just take your time and keep meeting new people. Eventually the right situation will reveal itself. My only other piece of advice is don't over analyze everything. Just be yourself and go with the flow...only saying that because in your past threads it seemed you had a tendency to do that when you have a strong interest in someone.


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## Blondilocks

You decided to start a debate over the phone on a subject which you already knew her viewpoint and ambushed her and decided to play devil's advocate. Why?

You had already thought about the 'debate' and had your ducks in a row. She was coming in cold and felt defensive. If you're that starving for entertainment, turn on the telly.

Next time you want to have a 'deep' discussion, be fair and list the terms of engagement ahead of time so the person has a fair chance to wrap their mind around it. You might inform them ahead of time that you'll be playing devil's advocate (a position best left to lawyers advising a potential witness). By definition it is adversarial. She may be one of many who don't relish the thought of putting on the gloves in a personal relationship.


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## BioFury

She's entered into a relationship with someone else, just so everyone knows. But I wanted to reply to the respective posters below.



WorkingWife said:


> Dude, you do NOT want this woman back. Right now you're understandably stunned, but think long term: How are you going to have a relationship with a person who will be upset and offended and not only not show it, but tell you the opposite, and then later blind side you like this without even giving you a chance to explain yourself. And then refuses to listed to your attempts at explanation?
> 
> You said yourself you like conversations like that and deep thinking. How happy will you really be in a LTR with someone so touchy and mentally rigid? How will *you * get to relax and be *you *with her?
> 
> I'm sure it's disappointing and bewildering when things seemed so great, and then BOOM. But be glad she showed her crazy as early as she did.


That's the thing, this is seems so out of character for her. Her friends said she was chill, and loyal to a fault. And in our discussions, she had always been that way. No jumping to conclusions, getting upset at nothing, etc.

Then this happens.



WorkingWife said:


> I'm sorry Bio -- but where do you find LOGIC in her reaction?
> 
> Does a LOGICAL person pretend everything is fine -- even SAY that it is, when they are really upset?
> Assuming it took her awhile to digest and pin point the "upset" she was feeling, does a LOGICAL person refuse to even consider the explanation you've given that you were playing devil's advocate because you were interested in the topic and her thoughts on it and had NO IDEA she felt attacked or disrespected? Wouldn't a LOGICAL person realize that they gave only positive feedback at the time and later so this might very well, QUITE LOGICALLY, just be a misunderstanding? Does a LOGICAL person accuse others of disrespect when all they are doing is asking QUESTIONS on a topic about which they are passionate?


I see your point, and I agree. By logical, I mean that if I had indeed meant what she thought I did, she would be more than justified in being upset, and ending the relationship.



WorkingWife said:


> one more thing @BioFury -- to actually answer your question "how do I get her back?"
> 
> Assuming you did tell her that you don't disrespect her opinion at all and you had no idea you were offending her by being curious about a topic about which she is passionate, I think your best chance at getting her back is to let her be. Go dark on her. If you pursue her right now, it won't be attractive to her. I definitely would NOT grovel, as you did nothing wrong. Maybe send her one message like:
> 
> I'm really disappointed you no longer want to be friends because I really enjoy your company and loved talking with you, and in fact, thought we were having a nice, stimulating conversation. Unfortunately you see see things differently so I'll let it be. I wish you the best. Consider the door open if you change your perspective on this.
> 
> Then go on with your life. If she does come back around you may find you're no longer that attracted to her.


While I still want to understand what happened, and why she did this, I am finding it easier to deal with. Specifically for the reasons you brought up. Everyone said loyalty was one of her big qualities. Yet she cut me (someone she said she cared about) off without discussion or second thought, and refused to listen when I tried to explain my side. And to top it all of, gets with someone else not even a week later.



sunsetmist said:


> I don't disagree with others, BUT seems to me like something is missing between paragraph one and two above. Maybe, she was scared when you tried to 'progress' things. Maybe someone else influenced her. If she truly cared for you, IMO she would not cut you off so acutely. Refusal to communicate is a serious flaw, especially in a 'loved' one. Breakup by text is shallow and an easy way to escape truth. In other words, I think there is something more involved.


I agree. I'm not good at letting things go, but I may never have answers. One of her best friends has talked to me about what happened after the fact, but I don't want to push things, and make myself odious to them by asking them questions, venting my feelings, etc.



ReformedHubby said:


> OP, I hope you don't mind but I went back and looked at some of your old threads. How long have you known this woman? Are you dating? I get the impression that you are just starting to figure out this whole dating and meeting new people stuff. From my perspective it seems that you are bit out in front of those that you have an interest in. Meaning you are relationship ready and they are in the "getting to know you" phase. Just take your time and keep meeting new people. Eventually the right situation will reveal itself. My only other piece of advice is don't over analyze everything. Just be yourself and go with the flow...only saying that because in your past threads it seemed you had a tendency to do that when you have a strong interest in someone.


My dating pool is not normal. We don't date for fun, or to see where things will go. We date for the potential of marriage.

I don't over-analyze everything. I was very relaxed. That's how (supposedly) this happened. I thought we were both just chilling, and could just bounce ideas off of one another, without having to put them through 15 different filters to make sure none of it was ambiguous or offensive. Then this blows up. NOW, I started analyzing everything.

As far as just take my time and meet new people... I stay away from people. And I do so more and more each time one of them hurts me. The only reason I talk to new girls on occasion, is because I'm sick of being in pain, sick of being alone. I'm not suicidal, I've never been the emotional type. But eating one of my Glocks is becoming more appealing each time this happens.


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## Tasorundo

In 5 days she is with someone else, she was just looking for an excuse to end it. She could end it and make it look like your fault, so slam dunk, goodbye.


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## personofinterest

Lila said:


> If the issue is one which affects her and/or her family directly, then she might be in self protection mode.
> 
> For example, illegal migrants and/or migration. I know several people on both sides of the argument who are directly or indirectly affected by the topic. Because of the nature of the subject matter, they tend to be very cautious of who they allow into their lives. Anyone who is not on their side is considered dangerous and ostracized. Even discussing the topic as an exercise in debate is considered dangerous.
> 
> I would say if you feel strongly about this woman, then give her some time to cool off. Let her know how you feel about her and that you will accept if she doesn't want to see you again. But also tell her you think it's a shame to see such a good relationship go to waste .


I agree with this.

I was married to a "devil's advocate." Honestly, it just comes off as arrogant and contrary most of the time. Even when he agreed with me, he thought it would be good to "educate" me or debate me or some such something I could never figure out. If he had said, "I feel the same way, but I have often wondered about X....how do you see that?" It would be one thing. But it was always tactless. And since he had that kind of "I'm right" vibe anyway, it was just really unattractive.

I'd use this cool off time to honestly and humbly examine whether it is necessary to bring a counterpoint in order to have a good conversation and whether you may have come across in a negative way.

Yeah....she didn't handle it the best. But when I feel denigrated, I don't either. All someone has to do is read on TAM to see that lol. I'm actually a kind, loving, caring person. But when I feel attacked, ridiculed, or made fun of, I.....react.

Calling this woman a land mine person (which I know YOU did not do) just because of ONE conversation is a typical but unattractive response. I am glad you are willing to look further.


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## personofinterest

lifeistooshort said:


> This strikes me as a compatibility issue.
> 
> You like to discuss and debate.....she doesn't. Lots of people don't.....lots of people can't. It requires a level of open mindedness and critical thinking ability that not everyone has.
> 
> If she's so close minded that she can't even discuss the issue enough to tell you why she thinks you're wrong then she's not a good match for one who likes to debate.
> 
> I'm like you....I like to debate and love thoughtful discussion. My ex didn't....he got deeply offended if you didn't agree with him and took it as a personal attack. It was one of our many issues and caused a lot of unhappiness.
> 
> Maybe you should let her go. Even if you get her back you'll have to forever watch what you say....it's no way to live.


Sometimes it isn't about WHETHER you disagree but about HOW you disagree.


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## StillSearching

BioFury said:


> So I've been talking with a woman, and both of us like each other a lot (we did, at least). But I said something, that she took in the total opposite way that I intended, and now won't speak to me. Here's the timeline.
> 
> At the beginning of the week, we were talking on the phone about something. I'm a deep thinker, and love having theoretical discussions about subjects, outside of their personal application. So I asked her what she thought about a particular viewpoint, that was contrary to the one she holds. I did this purely from a desire to spark a discussion, and see if we could learn more about the subject together. I played devil's advocate when she made particular assertions, but not in an aggressive way, but merely asking her what she thought about the counter-point. But she, being very passionate about the issue, took it as me taking the opposite position. I'm not going to specify what the issue is, but suffice to say that it's a very important, very sensitive issue.
> 
> The strange thing, is that she didn't react negatively right away. We got together for a date two days later, and I thought we were at a "transition point" in our relationship. I was ready to progress things, so I asked her how she felt about me, and the relationship between us. She said that she liked me as much as ever, and that her feelings had only grown. That she wanted things to work out between us.
> 
> Shortly after said date, she sends me a text, telling me it's over. As the reason, the gives me the issue I already described above. And tells me that I clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them. When that was never ever my intent. I just wanted to have a discussion, and never meant to attack her point of view.
> 
> So, needless to say, her text nearly gave me a heart attack. And I've frantically been trying to explain, but she just responded by saying her feelings for me are gone, as a result of my disrespect towards her convictions. And asked me to stop contacting her.
> 
> How do I get through to her, and win her back? What can I do to revive the feelings that were there, before this misunderstanding took place?


It is always time and effort better spent developing relations with new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship.


----------



## personofinterest

WorkingWife said:


> I'm sorry Bio -- but where do you find LOGIC in her reaction?
> 
> Does a LOGICAL person pretend everything is fine -- even SAY that it is, when they are really upset?
> Assuming it took her awhile to digest and pin point the "upset" she was feeling, does a LOGICAL person refuse to even consider the explanation you've given that you were playing devil's advocate because you were interested in the topic and her thoughts on it and had NO IDEA she felt attacked or disrespected? Wouldn't a LOGICAL person realize that they gave only positive feedback at the time and later so this might very well, QUITE LOGICALLY, just be a misunderstanding? Does a LOGICAL person accuse others of disrespect when all they are doing is asking QUESTIONS on a topic about which they are passionate?


There have been times something upset me, and I try not to be upset. Something in me thinks maybe I am being unreasonable, so I try to just shake it off, be normal, go on. Then....the more I think about it, the more I realize it was not okay.

One day my new hubby had had a terrible week at work. I like his bosses but they are just stupid about some things, and they overwork him because of it. Anyway, he got home, and supper wasn't ready. NO, he is not one of "those" men who says "where's my dinner, but I was off that day, and I had told him I'd have the meatloaf done and he could just come in and relax (he LOVES meatloaf). So there was that. Then the dog (who was still in the puppy stage) had pooped on the floor, and since I had been in the kitchen, I didn't see it. I told him not to worry about it, and I went to the bedroom to pick it up and spray the carpet. While I was in there, his work called, and he ignored it while mumbling about how there was no way he was going back up there. Then, when he opened the cabinet and tried to get out a cup, several other cups fell out onto the counter, and it was just the last straw. He slammed the cabinet, used his hand to sweep the cups (they were a few mismatched plastic ones from various restaurants so no breakage, uttered some curse words, and left the house, slamming the door. He went to get squeeze butter.

I knew how stressed he had been, so I really tried to shake it off. He is not an angry person. I was extra sweet the rest of the night, I just tried to put it out of my mind the next day or so. But honestly, it had triggered a fear reaction in me. I mean, that kind of fear reaction where you want to cower behind the bed. It had made me cry, even though he didn't know that. So a couple of days later I broached the subject. He wondered why I didn't say something that night. It was because I was trying to see it for what it was and not let it get to me.

I wonder if that is what happened here.

I mean, she could just be a shrew, but Bio has seemed to like her, and he strikes me as pretty choosy AND pretty perceptive, so it's hard to just say "she's a witch, burn her!" over one incident.


----------



## SadSamIAm

1) You had a discussion with her that upset her. 

2) Then you had a date where she told you that things are going well between you.

3) Then she breaks up with you because of discussion in 1)


Now you find out she is seeing someone else. Something happened between 2 and 3. Thinking a discussion/meeting with her new someone.


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> She's entered into a relationship with someone else, just so everyone knows. But I wanted to reply to the respective posters below.


Thanks for replying. 

I'm sorry to hear this, I know you really liked her. This may be the answer to your other questions though. She may have met this other person before the "incident." Or even after the incident when everything was fine but before she blew up at you over said "incident."

She may have preferred this other guy and latched onto the "incident" as an excuse to stop seeing you. If I'm right, she should have just told you "I met someone else and we are getting serious." But people are strange. She may have thought this would hurt your feelings less, or felt guilty that she's been leading you on if this other person was already on her radar and she was acting like "all systems go" with you.

Like you said, you'll never know. It would explain the about face in attitude about the conversation and the 'out of characterness" of it though.



BioFury said:


> My dating pool is not normal. We don't date for fun, or to see where things will go. We date for the potential of marriage.


Are you able/willing to elaborate on that? Why just for potential of marriage? Is your dating pool really small?



BioFury said:


> I don't over-analyze everything. I was very relaxed. That's how (supposedly) this happened. I thought we were both just chilling, and could just bounce ideas off of one another, without having to put them through 15 different filters to make sure none of it was ambiguous or offensive. Then this blows up. NOW, I started analyzing everything.


Uggghhh. The frustrating thing is that you had the right approach because while obviously you want to put your best foot forward with someone new, you also have to be able to be yourself or even if the relationship stays, it will get more and more frustrating and dissatisfying for you.



BioFury said:


> As far as just take my time and meet new people... I stay away from people. And I do so more and more each time one of them hurts me. The only reason I talk to new girls on occasion, is because I'm sick of being in pain, sick of being alone. I'm not suicidal, I've never been the emotional type. But eating one of my Glocks is becoming more appealing each time this happens.


Please don't do anything rash. There has to be a solution to your dilemma. You've probably answered this elsewhere but are you in individual therapy? Are you really introverted and really don't want friends to hang out with but do want a life partner? 
It's confusing that you are lonely but stay away from people in general. I'm pretty introverted and never really WANT to meet people or socialize, but lately I've been making an effort to put myself out there and even though the idea is not appealing, and meeting new people is a bit tiresome to me, I'm starting to realize some really nice benefits of having a few friends and feeling more connected to people.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Lesson learned: before you enter in adversarial conversation (even friendly, academic adversarial conversation), make sure the other party:
1. wants to do the same
and
2. understands that that's all you are doing. 

I too like intellectual, exploratory discussion and will often take a contrary position, even one quite contrary to what I myself believe, for the sake of exploration. My wife, on the other had, is confrontation-phobic and immediately senses everything as an attack. We have reached both understanding and equilibrium in how we talk things out, but I didn't go all devil's advocate on her early in the relationship. That's something that must be reserved for later when both parties are much more familiar and comfortable with each other, and will have a full understanding off the true nature of the discussion.


----------



## StarFires

You did this:



BioFury said:


> So I asked her what she thought about a particular viewpoint, that was contrary to the one she holds. I did this purely from a desire to spark a discussion, and see if we could learn more about the subject together. I played devil's advocate when she made particular assertions, but not in an aggressive way, but merely asking her what she thought about the counter-point. But she, being very passionate about the issue, took it as me taking the opposite position. I'm not going to specify what the issue is, but suffice to say that it's a very important, very sensitive issue.


And the result was this:



BioFury said:


> Shortly after said date, she sends me a text, telling me it's over. As the reason, the gives me the issue I already described above. And tells me that I clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them. When that was never ever my intent. I just wanted to have a discussion, and never meant to attack her point of view.


For the life of me, I can never remember the law that states a person, by his actions, is guilty despite his intentions. So, it doesn't matter what your intentions were. The only thing that matters is what resulted from your actions. You did exactly what she said you did by arguing with her, minimizing her, and ignoring her. That's what she saw/felt/experienced you doing, so it isn't possible for you to say you didn't do those things. I don't understand you doing this for any reason except to argue her down. If your argument wasn't your own opinion, then why spend the time, energy, and her frustration arguing it? You're essentially saying you simply like arguing for no reason. Your argument isn't your own position, but you just take up the opposing position (and call it devil's advocate) for the sake of nothing and the understanding of nothing. That's the second reason I would have broken up with you. She broke up with you for the first reason that I would have.

Consider that meeting and dating is supposed to serve a purpose. Both people should spend the first while (for a long while) scrutinizing each other - you to see if she's the right person for you, and her to see if you're the right person for her. There are lots of people who don't do that. They meet someone and scrutinize nothing and then become shocked and surprised to discover the person they hooked up with is a dirtbag, when the obvious signs were there all the long. Your girl was wise not to ignore what you did, the things you said, and how you made her feel.

I think if you had any hope of getting her attention, you should apologize. Note that an apology doesn't include any statements exempting yourself from blame and no statements excluding or separating yourself from your actions. So you wouldn't say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you" because you did offend her whether you meant to offend her or not. She would not appreciate you making her the blame for your doing. You also would not say "I'm sorry, I was just trying to . . ." because, again, it doesn't matter what you were trying to do. The only thing that matters is what you did and said to her and how it all made her feel. Your apology should be sincere and in total understanding of how you offended her and that you should not have done it.

And then you might want to reconsider and possibly restructure your definition of deep thinking because I can't imagine any woman wanting to spend her days spinning around your mulberry bushes. Life is too short to get nowhere.


----------



## WorkingWife

personofinterest said:


> There have been times something upset me, and I try not to be upset. Something in me thinks maybe I am being unreasonable, so I try to just shake it off, be normal, go on. Then....the more I think about it, the more I realize it was not okay.


I have that exact same experience too. I know I'm upset but I can't coherently explain why, so I sit on it and think about it for a couple days until I can put it into words. I feel like just saying "I'm hurt" or "I'm angry" without being able to justify it with a concrete example and explanation is going to confuse the other person and put me in the embarrassing spot of just looking like a crazy woman with no rationale for her whacko emotions. 

Also, there are productive ways to say what's bothering you so the other person understands and doesn't get defensive. If I can't pin down what's wrong, I may be able to communicate "That pisses me off" but how can they avoid repeating it if they don't understand why?

In this case that could be exactly what happened - she felt unsettled at the time but stuffed it until she thought about it or talked to a female friend who was all "you go girl!" about it. BUT now it sounds like she may have had her eye on another guy and just used the incident she didn't like as a reason to stop seeing Bio because it makes HER look better if she walked away because he did something wrong, compared to she was dating around and picked someone else. I have read that most men would rather hear "I met someone else" than "I'm not attracted to you." But as a woman I've always had a terrible time telling someone who is interested in me that I don't want to see them. Especially if they really are a nice guy who I do like.


----------



## personofinterest

"I think if you had any hope of getting her attention, you should apologize. Note that an apology doesn't include any statements exempting yourself from blame and no statements excluding or separating yourself from your actions. So you wouldn't say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you" because you did offend her whether you meant to offend her or not. She would not appreciate you making her the blame for your doing. You also would not say "I'm sorry, I was just trying to . . ." because, again, it doesn't matter what you were trying to do. The only thing that matters is what you did and said to her and how it all made her feel. Your apology should be sincere and in total understanding of how you offended her and that you should not have done it."

I quoted this, not because it is really relevant to the situation anymore, but because it is such an excellent commentary on what actually constitutes a real apology.


----------



## WorkingWife

StarFires said:


> You did this:
> 
> For the life of me, I can never remember the law that states a person, by his actions, is guilty despite his intentions.
> 
> _Maybe manslaughter or negligent something or other? But you do have to actually be GUILTY of something._
> 
> So, it doesn't matter what your intentions were. The only thing that matters is what resulted from your actions. You did exactly what she said you did by arguing with her, minimizing her, and ignoring her. That's what she saw/felt/experienced you doing, so it isn't possible for you to say you didn't do those things. I don't understand you doing this for any reason except to argue her down. If your argument wasn't your own opinion, then why spend the time, energy, and her frustration arguing it? You're essentially saying you simply like arguing for no reason. Your argument isn't your own position, but you just take up the opposing position (and call it devil's advocate) for the sake of nothing and the understanding of nothing. That's the second reason I would have broken up with you. She broke up with you for the first reason that I would have.


Wow StarFires - this seems really harsh to me on YOUR part. I see it SO differently. Bio has said many time that he loves discussing topics. Not ARGUING, but DISCUSSING. In his explanation he said he thought they were having a DISCUSSION about something *she *was passionate about.

Now, I understand some people (including you apparently) absolutely do not like discussing things when they are not in total agreement with the other person. But per Bio, this woman had also shown great interest in deep discussions. And she gave zero negative feedback (that he picked up on) during the conversation or even after when she enthusiastically agreed to see him again. No where did he say he was talking down to her or even presenting the counterpoints as his opinion, he said he was asking her questions about her thoughts on the counterpoints.

Personally, I love discussions like that and *I would think I'd died and gone to heaven if some guy I was dating was interested enough in me to 1) remember what I was passionate about and 2) get me talking about it, and keep asking me questions and listening to my answers.* (Of course then I don't run around getting passionate about topics where I can't explain my POV, so maybe that's just me.)

I think it's fair to point out to Bio that some people don't like having their ideas challenged. And you have to be careful to not be condescending, disrespectful, or bull doze over someone when your opinion is also passionate but for the other side. But no where did he say that he did any of that. He didn't say he ARGUED with her, MINIMIZED her, or IGNORED her. To the contrary he was showing great interest in her interest and opinions.

If it's even true that the conversation is what put her off on dating him, she's obviously not a good match for him since he really wants someone he can have those discussions with. But I'm sure it's extremely disappointing to him because he seldom dates and even though he was trying to not have high expectations, he really really liked this lady.

But to say that because someone perceived something a certain way you are GUILTY of doing what they PERCEIVED? NONSENSE, what RUBBISH. *Are YOU now GUILTY* of being a MEAN, VISCIOUS, THOUGHTLESS person who doesn't THINK about the words others actually write when analyzing and who cannot enjoy talking with another human being unless that person agrees 100% with EVERY though you have and doesn't ask any questions and is so self absorbed you can't even IMAGINE any other woman ever wanting to *simply because that is how I chose to perceived your comments? SMH*


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> So a couple of days later I broached the subject. He wondered why I didn't say something that night. It was because I was trying to see it for what it was and not let it get to me.
> 
> I wonder if that is what happened here.
> 
> I mean, she could just be a shrew, but Bio has seemed to like her, and he strikes me as pretty choosy AND pretty perceptive, so it's hard to just say "she's a witch, burn her!" over one incident.


Sure, if it had just taken her a few days to think it over, I totally get that. But I would expect her to talk to me about it once she concluded that my statements/actions were unacceptable to her. Not destroy the relationship.

But yes, I forget that dating in the world of many of the posters here is entirely different than in my own. I don't have the luxury of throwing away candidates, especially good candidates, for any reason. 

Finding women who are virgins is difficult enough. And this time, I actually found one who liked me (she said) as much as I liked her. Someone I could see a future with. She said she didn't know how I was still single, but that didn't stop her from throwing me out like yesterday's trash.



WorkingWife said:


> Thanks for replying.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear this, I know you really liked her. This may be the answer to your other questions though. She may have met this other person before the "incident." Or even after the incident when everything was fine but before she blew up at you over said "incident."
> 
> She may have preferred this other guy and latched onto the "incident" as an excuse to stop seeing you. If I'm right, she should have just told you "I met someone else and we are getting serious." But people are strange. She may have thought this would hurt your feelings less, or felt guilty that she's been leading you on if this other person was already on her radar and she was acting like "all systems go" with you.
> 
> Like you said, you'll never know. It would explain the about face in attitude about the conversation and the 'out of characterness" of it though.
> 
> Are you able/willing to elaborate on that? Why just for potential of marriage? Is your dating pool really small?
> 
> Uggghhh. The frustrating thing is that you had the right approach because while obviously you want to put your best foot forward with someone new, you also have to be able to be yourself or even if the relationship stays, it will get more and more frustrating and dissatisfying for you.
> 
> Please don't do anything rash. There has to be a solution to your dilemma. You've probably answered this elsewhere but are you in individual therapy? Are you really introverted and really don't want friends to hang out with but do want a life partner?
> It's confusing that you are lonely but stay away from people in general. I'm pretty introverted and never really WANT to meet people or socialize, but lately I've been making an effort to put myself out there and even though the idea is not appealing, and meeting new people is a bit tiresome to me, I'm starting to realize some really nice benefits of having a few friends and feeling more connected to people.


Her lying is possible, but both of us belong to a very conservative religious movement. So even though little of what's happened makes logical sense, I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt. Which, is more than she gave me. But the same thought did occur to me - her talking to a second guy.

Though if that were the case, I don't understand why she would invite me to go meet her parents and family, and tell me during my visit in giddy excitement, that she was telling all her friends about me. A mere 4 hours later though, I was having a panic attack reading her "you're a bad person, and I'm not interested any more" message. Just doesn't add up.

Why just for marriage? Because premarital sex isn't a thing in our community (though most come to the faith already having had sex), and why invest yourself in someone if you can't see being with them forever? Would be like climbing the ladder of a company you know is going to be closing it's doors next year. But yes, my dating pool is extraordinarily small.

No, I'm not in therapy. Nothing they can say is going to change my circumstances, and my circumstances are what the problem is.

Yes, I'm introverted. I don't really get the "friends" thing. I have one friend, and that's it. But yes, I'd like to have someone I can trust and rely on for once. A life partner. I recently attended a few events, and had this massive influx of friend requests (I previously had, like 20 facebook friends). Now in the span of a month, I have 45. Which, to most people is still paltry, but I find it disingenuous. What am I suppose to do with them? I talked to them for maybe two minutes, and might see them once or twice again, but I have no interest in them as people. Unless they have a sister.

I stay away from people because all they've ever done is hurt me. Or rather, they hurt me badly in my teens, and I've kept them away ever since. Though every girl who's ever meant anything to me abandoning me hasn't helped either.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Lesson learned: before you enter in adversarial conversation (even friendly, academic adversarial conversation), make sure the other party:
> 1. wants to do the same
> and
> 2. understands that that's all you are doing.
> 
> I too like intellectual, exploratory discussion and will often take a contrary position, even one quite contrary to what I myself believe, for the sake of exploration. My wife, on the other had, is confrontation-phobic and immediately senses everything as an attack. We have reached both understanding and equilibrium in how we talk things out, but I didn't go all devil's advocate on her early in the relationship. That's something that must be reserved for later when both parties are much more familiar and comfortable with each other, and will have a full understanding off the true nature of the discussion.


"Devil's advocate" was just a label to communicate an idea. I was not aggressive in any manner. I merely thought of a couple verses that applied to the theological subject she had mentioned, and asked her what she thought. Yes, the verses were "counter" evidence, not evidence that supported her point, but I wasn't trying to prove anything, just gather her thoughts on it.

But yes, I agree that I shouldn't do "that" any more.



WorkingWife said:


> In this case that could be exactly what happened - she felt unsettled at the time but stuffed it until she thought about it or talked to a female friend who was all "you go girl!" about it. BUT now it sounds like she may have had her eye on another guy and just used the incident she didn't like as a reason to stop seeing Bio because it makes HER look better if she walked away because he did something wrong, compared to she was dating around and picked someone else. I have read that most men would rather hear "I met someone else" than "I'm not attracted to you." But as a woman I've always had a terrible time telling someone who is interested in me that I don't want to see them. Especially if they really are a nice guy who I do like.


That would make sense, but if it were the case, I don't understand why she would invite me to her family's home to meet her parents, and siblings, and spend the day with them. She was visibly giddy while I was there too. Makes little sense.



personofinterest said:


> "I think if you had any hope of getting her attention, you should apologize. Note that an apology doesn't include any statements exempting yourself from blame and no statements excluding or separating yourself from your actions. So you wouldn't say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you" because you did offend her whether you meant to offend her or not. She would not appreciate you making her the blame for your doing. You also would not say "I'm sorry, I was just trying to . . ." because, again, it doesn't matter what you were trying to do. The only thing that matters is what you did and said to her and how it all made her feel. Your apology should be sincere and in total understanding of how you offended her and that you should not have done it."
> 
> I quoted this, not because it is really relevant to the situation anymore, but because it is such an excellent commentary on what actually constitutes a real apology.


I agree that an apology shouldn't deflect blame, but I disagree that one shouldn't explain one's true intentions, or that one's intentions don't matter. 

Sure, good intentions don't repair damage, except in cases where the intent (bad intent, in this case) is what caused the damage. For instance, if you husband says something, and you understand it as an insult to you. Let's say for arguments sake that there's nothing in itself insulting about the remark - he likes freckles, and mentioned you didn't have any, for example. It's his intent that has damaged you. Therefore, if he clarifies his intent, which was not insulting, the damage is undone.

Not the best example, but you get what I'm saying.


----------



## personofinterest

It really doesn't matter if an apology fits your parameters. What matters is whether or not it fits hers.

I am sorry this happened. When your values are actually the Biblical definition of Christian, it's hard to find someone who shares that these days.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> It really doesn't matter if an apology fits your parameters. What matters is whether or not it fits hers.
> 
> I am sorry this happened. When your values are actually the Biblical definition of Christian, it's hard to find someone who shares that these days.


Very true. But I would hope that being remorseful and genuine is universally valued in an apology. Even if the apology isn't worded, or conducted, in one's preferred fashion.

Thanks


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> Though if that were the case, I don't understand why she would invite me to go meet her parents and family, and tell me during my visit in giddy excitement, that she was telling all her friends about me. A mere 4 hours later though, I was having a panic attack reading her "you're a bad person, and I'm not interested any more" message. Just doesn't add up.
> 
> and
> 
> That would make sense, but if it were the case, I don't understand why she would invite me to her family's home to meet her parents, and siblings, and spend the day with them. She was visibly giddy while I was there too. Makes little sense.


Ah the plot thickens. This is DEFINITELY confusing. How did her family seem to you? Is it possible her parents or someone very influential with her didn't like you for some reason? In your religion does she need her parents blessing/approval on who she ultimately marries?



BioFury said:


> Why just for marriage? Because premarital sex isn't a thing in our community (though most come to the faith already having had sex), and why invest yourself in someone if you can't see being with them forever? Would be like climbing the ladder of a company you know is going to be closing it's doors next year. But yes, my dating pool is extraordinarily small.


It seems that people still need friends, even introverts, and even if they're not planning to marry the person. Maybe you don't want to mix that with dating though, which is understandable.



BioFury said:


> No, I'm not in therapy. Nothing they can say is going to change my circumstances, and my circumstances are what the problem is.


The reason I asked about therapy was because I've noticed in a few of your posts you talk about "people always hurt you." I don't know what happened when you were young, but the fact is, that's what people do. They're human. They disappoint. We all get some dosage of people hurting us. But some people seem much more resilient to that than others. Maybe they have lower expectations? Maybe they are more focused on their good life experiences and human interactions? (Maybe they're vacuous extroverts with no standards... ;-) ) I'm not sure. In my experience the people who claim others always hurt them or let them down tend to be very sensitive. I was not thinking a therapist could change your circumstances, but rather help you navigate the emotions of what you're going through.

I assume being in this religious movement is a voluntary choice you are making, but it sounds like it is making you frustrated, lonely, and unhappy, so it's confusing to me. I assume it is your faith and you want to see it through. But the glock comment really concerned me for you.


----------



## BioFury

WorkingWife said:


> Ah the plot thickens. This is DEFINITELY confusing. How did her family seem to you? Is it possible her parents or someone very influential with her didn't like you for some reason? In your religion does she need her parents blessing/approval on who she ultimately marries?
> 
> It seems that people still need friends, even introverts, and even if they're not planning to marry the person. Maybe you don't want to mix that with dating though, which is understandable.
> 
> The reason I asked about therapy was because I've noticed in a few of your posts you talk about "people always hurt you." I don't know what happened when you were young, but the fact is, that's what people do. They're human. They disappoint. We all get some dosage of people hurting us. But some people seem much more resilient to that than others. Maybe they have lower expectations? Maybe they are more focused on their good life experiences and human interactions? (Maybe they're vacuous extroverts with no standards... ;-) ) I'm not sure. In my experience the people who claim others always hurt them or let them down tend to be very sensitive. I was not thinking a therapist could change your circumstances, but rather help you navigate the emotions of what you're going through.
> 
> I assume being in this religious movement is a voluntary choice you are making, but it sounds like it is making you frustrated, lonely, and unhappy, so it's confusing to me. I assume it is your faith and you want to see it through. But the glock comment really concerned me for you.


Her siblings liked me. Or, she told me they all liked me. She didn't say anything about her parents. But I've been in contact with her mom since this happened, and she said that it was her daughters decision, implying that she didn't have anything to do with it. In addition, I explained her mom the reasons why her daughter had axed me (some of the reasons involved her), so I apologized and made it clear that I didn't mean those things the way they were taken. To which she responded that she had never been offended.

Her mom's assertion was that we had nothing in common, or that there just wasn't a spark. Which I found absurd, but obviously didn't say that. I found it absurd, because her daughter had stated multiple times how extraordinarily well matched we were. And as for the spark, I asked her before I left how she was feeling, and she said her feelings for me had gotten stronger. She also blew me a kiss as I drove away. Which, may seem like nothing to all of you, but considering her parents won't let her touch a boy in any way till she's married... she was doing all she could to express interest.

With regard to people hurting me... I don't care with most people. I'm not a snowflake who can't take the normal bruisings of life. But when people I value reject me on a personal level, it hurts. 

For instance, I was at an age segregated event a few weeks ago. The younger "tier" were having a pizza party, and one of the guys (in my age tier) I was hanging with was invited. He said I should show up, and ask if I could join in as well, and I immediately stated that I wasn't interested. But, it wasn't that I wasn't interested, as most of girls I had my eye on were at said pizza party. It was that I wasn't going to risk being publicly rejected, and laughed out of the room in front of every girl there. Maybe I have the emotional maturity of an 8 year old. I don't know.

Yes, the religion makes me extremely unhappy. But only because it isolates me, and makes it difficult for me to find anyone I can enter a meaningful relationship with.


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> He said I should show up, and ask if I could join in as well, and I immediately stated that I wasn't interested. But, it wasn't that I wasn't interested, as most of girls I had my eye on were at said pizza party. It was that I wasn't going to risk being publicly rejected, and laughed out of the room in front of every girl there. Maybe I have the emotional maturity of an 8 year old. I don't know.


Why would you be publicly rejected and laughed out of the room? Because of the age difference? Do these people do that sort of thing? I don't know about an 8 year old but the circumstances you're in are unusual and you probably have not been exposed to the same kind of social interactions most people your age have. (I don't know your age, I'll have to look at your profile.)



BioFury said:


> Yes, the religion makes me extremely unhappy. But only because it isolates me, and makes it difficult for me to find anyone I can enter a meaningful relationship with.


Then why are you that religion?


----------



## BioFury

WorkingWife said:


> Why would you be publicly rejected and laughed out of the room? Because of the age difference? Do these people do that sort of thing? I don't know about an 8 year old but the circumstances you're in are unusual and you probably have not been exposed to the same kind of social interactions most people your age have. (I don't know your age, I'll have to look at your profile.)
> 
> Then why are you that religion?


Because the party was for people of a certain age bracket, and I fell outside of that. No, it's unlikely they would have thrown me out, but it wasn't a risk I was going to take. It would have been an expression of desire, that I wanted their company. And my strategy has always been to not care. If you don't care, then no one can hurt you. I'm in my twenties.

Because I believe it's the right one.


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> Because the party was for people of a certain age bracket, and I fell outside of that. No, it's unlikely they would have thrown me out, but it wasn't a risk I was going to take. It would have been an expression of desire, that I wanted their company. And my strategy has always been to not care. If you don't care, then no one can hurt you. I'm in my twenties.


That makes sense. You would have felt self conscious. I once had a big client who had one employee who was, well, she was crazy. I'd been doing contract work for them for a couple months leading up to Christmas and they were having their company Christmas Party. She talked me into coming. On and on about how she wanted me there and no one would mind. It seemed inappropriate because I was not an employee but she wore me down. I even asked her boss if it was ok in advance and he said she would know more than he would. So I went. 

I WANTED TO DIE. I was the ONLY contractor there. I saw the CFO and managing partners and I'm thinking they're looking at me eating and drinking on their dime and must be pretty irritated. The IT people I'd been working with were happy to see me but I felt like everyone else was looking at me like ...how dare she?! and THEN my "friend" spent very little time at the party that I just "had" to go to for her.

Anyhow, I know the feeling of knowing sure, I could show up and no one would say anything but I don't belong there.



BioFury said:


> Because I believe it's the right one.


That's good. Just checking. If your religion is setting up situations in your life that are really frustrating and depressing to you it just seems off to me. I thought maybe it was a cultural thing where you felt you had no choice -- like Amish where it's the religion or you are shunned by family/community. If you get really depressed by it, just remember that you do have choices.


----------



## Prodigal

BioFury said:


> Because I believe it's the right one.


This actually intrigues me. What do you mean by your religion being the "right" one? No, I'm not going to start some religious/political debate, but I'm genuinely curious as to why you feel your particular religion is right for you.


----------



## StarFires

@WorkingWife _"Maybe manslaughter or negligent something or other? But you do have to actually be GUILTY of something." _

He is guilty of something. He's guilty of being contrary and combative for no apparent reason at all because what he was saying and the challenging her that he was doing weren't even his own opinions. He's also guilty of making her feel that he "_clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them_." She has been blown off and called names by people here, so you and they can keep doing that all you want. I choose to believe what she said. He didn't intend to do it and it's not what he meant, but if everything should be taken as "I didn't intend to" then there wouldn't be such a thing as gaslighting, and there also would be no need for the law that I mentioned because you know "I didn't mean it" is all the defense a person needs. I don't think he's gaslighting her, but he is guilty of what she said.

I got as far as you stating _"No where did he say he was talking down to her or even presenting the counterpoints as his opinion, he said he was asking her questions about her thoughts on the counterpoints"_ and couldn't read any further because that was just too much nonsensical conjecture to bother with. You have no idea how he was talking to her or why she felt the way she did. You refuse to see it despite him telling us several times. He told us what he did, his reasons, and his intentions. He also told us how she took it. I don't choose to invalidate her feelings the way you and he keep doing, especially since he stated himself "_The subject we were discussing was extremely important to them, and the things she_ thought _I meant were pretty bad. And I totally get how she could think that's what I meant_." Even the way he described his end of the conversation in his OP was enough for me to see her point of view. You don't, and that's too bad.



BioFury said:


> Sure, good intentions don't repair damage, except in cases where the intent (bad intent, in this case) is what caused the damage. For instance, if you husband says something, and you understand it as an insult to you. Let's say for arguments sake that there's nothing in itself insulting about the remark - he likes freckles, and mentioned you didn't have any, for example. It's his intent that has damaged you. Therefore, if he clarifies his intent, which was not insulting, the damage is undone.
> 
> Not the best example, but you get what I'm saying.


I'm afraid this example you composed is another example of you missing the point.

Here's another one....


BioFury said:


> Very true. But I would hope that being remorseful and genuine is universally valued in an apology. Even if the apology isn't worded, or conducted, in one's preferred fashion.


.... which kind of indicates you feel your apology should be accepted however you choose to compose it. You disagreed that your intentions don't matter and while that is indeed what I said, I was advising you not to include explanation of your intentions in your apology. You made her feel the way she said you made her feel, so your intentions don't exempt you from the offense and have no place in the apology itself. If the opportunity were to arise at a later time, then it would be okay to explain yourself. But at the time of the apology is not the time to do it because it suggests to your offended that you are not taking responsibility for the offense itself. Since you were doing that the last time you and she spoke ("refused to listen when I tried to explain my side"), it could be, and possibly was, the reason she asked you not to contact her anymore. You weren't talking right so however remorseful and genuine you might have felt, exempting yourself was exhausting and didn't indicate to her in any way that you were remorseful or sincere. You only served to clue her that she doesn't want the relationship after all, and she certainly didn't want to listen to you tell her how wrong she was for feeling the way you made her feel.



BioFury said:


> As far as just take my time and meet new people... I stay away from people. And I do so more and more each time one of them hurts me. The only reason I talk to new girls on occasion, is because I'm sick of being in pain, sick of being alone. I'm not suicidal, I've never been the emotional type. But eating one of my Glocks is becoming more appealing each time this happens.


I know you're struggling, but this is quite disturbing. Both relationships and not having a relationship can be stressful, if not downright depressing. And your circumstances, as you said, make things even more difficult. But feeling the way you do is the biggest reason you should go to therapy. Your circumstance, you may find, isn't the only problem. Don't be opposed to trying it just because you can't imagine it helping.


----------



## In Absentia

WorkingWife said:


> Ah the plot thickens. This is DEFINITELY confusing.



I don't think it's confusing. He's shown her a side of himself she really didn't like and ended it because she couldn't put up with that. Hugely disappointing, but we are all different and some people are less tolerant and more sensitive than others. Ask my wife... :laugh:


----------



## Blondilocks

Am I understanding this correctly - your religion dictates that you must marry within the religion and that said person must be a virgin?

The pizza party story makes it sound as though you like girls considered to be out of your age bracket. Is their age a factor in mate selection? What is the typical marrying age? And, finally, were you born into the religion?

Thank you for helping us to attempt to help you.


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## personofinterest

Blondilocks said:


> Am I understanding this correctly - your religion dictates that you must marry within the religion and that said person must be a virgin?
> 
> The pizza party story makes it sound as though you like girls considered to be out of your age bracket. Is their age a factor in mate selection? What is the typical marrying age? And, finally, were you born into the religion?
> 
> Thank you for helping us to attempt to help you.


 In certain conservative Christian circles, the women 10 to marry pretty young. No, I do not mean under age marriage. I mean like the daughters in the duggar family, both of whom I believe were married before the age of 21 or 22? Because the woman's primary role is to be mother and homemaker, there is no feeling of a need for her to establish a career 1st period I am not dinner grating that or agreeing with it, just stating the facts that I know to be true based on my own life long involvement in Christianity.

The problem with this, as I see it, is complex. 1st of all, I grew up in a church where we as women were taught to be modest and conservative and to preserve our purity. I think this is a good thing. However, the young men in our church were also taught to be modest, to preserve their purity, and to be gentlemen. For example, none of the young man in my church who wanted a conservative Virgin wife would ever make jokes of a sexual nature, nor would they ever flirt with anyone, known or unknown, in a sexual fashion. They would never explicitly describe someone's back side or rack. In other words, these young man's expectations and their own lifestyle choices were consistent.

The problem with this, as I see it, is complex. 1st of all, I grew up in a church where we as women were taught to be modest and conservative and to preserve our purity. I think this is a good thing. However, the young men in our church were also taught to be modest, to preserve their purity, and to be gentlemen. For example, none of the young man in my church who wanted a conservative Virgin wife would ever make jokes of a sexual nature, nor would they ever flirt with anyone, known or unknown, in a sexual fashion. They would never explicitly describe someone's back side or rack. In other words, these young man's expectations and their own lifestyle choices were consistent.When you have someone who expects one thing of the women around him and yet exhibits very different behavior and conversation in his own life, and he sees no inconsistency in that, and he counters each argument given to him in a forum, it is easy to see why he would see nothing wrong with countering a woman he was dating. Especially when it is overwhelmingly obvious that to him, submission means the woman defers and capitulates to him no matter the topic.


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## Mr.Married

In between the date and phone call she decided guy #2 was a better option. Simple as that. No need for the mental debauchery.


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## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> In certain conservative Christian circles, the women 10 to marry pretty young. No, I do not mean under age marriage. I mean like the daughters in the duggar family, both of whom I believe were married before the age of 21 or 22? Because the woman's primary role is to be mother and homemaker, there is no feeling of a need for her to establish a career 1st period I am not dinner grating that or agreeing with it, just stating the facts that I know to be true based on my own life long involvement in Christianity.
> 
> The problem with this, as I see it, is complex. 1st of all, I grew up in a church where we as women were taught to be modest and conservative and to preserve our purity. I think this is a good thing. However, the young men in our church were also taught to be modest, to preserve their purity, and to be gentlemen. For example, none of the young man in my church who wanted a conservative Virgin wife would ever make jokes of a sexual nature, nor would they ever flirt with anyone, known or unknown, in a sexual fashion. They would never explicitly describe someone's back side or rack. In other words, these young man's expectations and their own lifestyle choices were consistent.When you have someone who expects one thing of the women around him and yet exhibits very different behavior and conversation in his own life, and he sees no inconsistency in that, and he counters each argument given to him in a forum, it is easy to see why he would see nothing wrong with countering a woman he was dating. Especially when it is overwhelmingly obvious that to him, submission means the woman defers and capitulates to him no matter the topic.


I see what you're saying, but I'm not requiring her to be a saint. Just be a virgin.

I'm not a virgin because I have no interest in sex. I'm a virgin because I want to wait for marriage. Which doesn't mean that the waiting is easy, and that my sexuality is safely locked away and I never struggle to control it. When the opportunity to be sexual presents itself, it strains against the chains, and sometimes (or frequently, depending on how weak I am that day) breaks free. Whether that be in a joke, or in the way I flirt. And I wouldn't think less of a woman for doing the same.


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## 269370

BioFury said:


> So I've been talking with a woman, and both of us like each other a lot (we did, at least). But I said something, that she took in the total opposite way that I intended, and now won't speak to me. Here's the timeline.
> 
> At the beginning of the week, we were talking on the phone about something. I'm a deep thinker, and love having theoretical discussions about subjects, outside of their personal application. So I asked her what she thought about a particular viewpoint, that was contrary to the one she holds. I did this purely from a desire to spark a discussion, and see if we could learn more about the subject together. I played devil's advocate when she made particular assertions, but not in an aggressive way, but merely asking her what she thought about the counter-point. But she, being very passionate about the issue, took it as me taking the opposite position. I'm not going to specify what the issue is, but suffice to say that it's a very important, very sensitive issue.
> 
> The strange thing, is that she didn't react negatively right away. We got together for a date two days later, and I thought we were at a "transition point" in our relationship. I was ready to progress things, so I asked her how she felt about me, and the relationship between us. She said that she liked me as much as ever, and that her feelings had only grown. That she wanted things to work out between us.
> 
> Shortly after said date, she sends me a text, telling me it's over. As the reason, the gives me the issue I already described above. And tells me that I clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them. When that was never ever my intent. I just wanted to have a discussion, and never meant to attack her point of view.
> 
> So, needless to say, her text nearly gave me a heart attack. And I've frantically been trying to explain, but she just responded by saying her feelings for me are gone, as a result of my disrespect towards her convictions. And asked me to stop contacting her.
> 
> How do I get through to her, and win her back? What can I do to revive the feelings that were there, before this misunderstanding took place?



Don’t. You probably dodged a bullet.
She sounds high maintenance and like a very insecure person who needs constant validation and reassurance. It’s not your job to provide it.
Was it some feminist issue?


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## 269370

BioFury said:


> Because I'm not a prideful, or spiteful person, who would let someone's logical reaction to a misunderstanding, get in the way of a good relationship?



Why do you assume it was a misunderstanding?


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## 269370

VibrantWings said:


> I think in all fairness ot the lady, we really don't know what was said between them.
> Without knowing the subject matter and all the details and who said what and how....it's not fair to assume she's a hothead. He admitted to playing Devil's advocate, which I've always seen as kind of..."risky".
> She is just getting to know him and he pushed....perhaps too hard. Not liking the Devil is pretty normal to me. *shrugs*
> 
> To the OP, was the "important subject matter" a woman's issue?
> 
> As to the change of heart after the conversation with you on a date, it sounds like she shared with a friend....




A lot of assumptions here....if you don’t give someone a chance to explain themselves and fix the misunderstanding, then that says everything you need to know about their character.


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## 269370

BioFury said:


> She's entered into a relationship with someone else, just so everyone knows.




Ok so RH was right; she was looking for a way out.
Let someone else deal with that bs and try to move on. **** happens. Sorry.


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## 269370

BioFury said:


> As far as just take my time and meet new people... I stay away from people. And I do so more and more each time one of them hurts me. The only reason I talk to new girls on occasion, is because I'm sick of being in pain, sick of being alone. I'm not suicidal, I've never been the emotional type. But eating one of my Glocks is becoming more appealing each time this happens.



Man, I know this hurts. You SHOULD talk to girls. Just don’t open your heart to them too soon. Until you can be sure that you can. 

This is not advice I would give to everyone but you seem like a sensitive guy: the power lies with those who care the least...It’s stupid but true. Doesn’t mean you should treat them like crap but you should first protect your heart, be polite and respectful....but careful.



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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> There have been times something upset me, and I try not to be upset. Something in me thinks maybe I am being unreasonable, so I try to just shake it off, be normal, go on. Then....the more I think about it, the more I realize it was not okay.
> 
> 
> 
> One day my new hubby had had a terrible week at work. I like his bosses but they are just stupid about some things, and they overwork him because of it. Anyway, he got home, and supper wasn't ready. NO, he is not one of "those" men who says "where's my dinner, but I was off that day, and I had told him I'd have the meatloaf done and he could just come in and relax (he LOVES meatloaf). So there was that. Then the dog (who was still in the puppy stage) had pooped on the floor, and since I had been in the kitchen, I didn't see it. I told him not to worry about it, and I went to the bedroom to pick it up and spray the carpet. While I was in there, his work called, and he ignored it while mumbling about how there was no way he was going back up there. Then, when he opened the cabinet and tried to get out a cup, several other cups fell out onto the counter, and it was just the last straw. He slammed the cabinet, used his hand to sweep the cups (they were a few mismatched plastic ones from various restaurants so no breakage, uttered some curse words, and left the house, slamming the door. He went to get squeeze butter.
> 
> 
> 
> I knew how stressed he had been, so I really tried to shake it off. He is not an angry person. I was extra sweet the rest of the night, I just tried to put it out of my mind the next day or so. But honestly, it had triggered a fear reaction in me. I mean, that kind of fear reaction where you want to cower behind the bed. It had made me cry, even though he didn't know that. So a couple of days later I broached the subject. He wondered why I didn't say something that night. It was because I was trying to see it for what it was and not let it get to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if that is what happened here.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, she could just be a shrew, but Bio has seemed to like her, and he strikes me as pretty choosy AND pretty perceptive, so it's hard to just say "she's a witch, burn her!" over one incident.



Wtf does an angry husband that didn’t get his food on time got to do with the OP’s situation??? 
There’s a danger of over-projecting here much!!
She got herself another guy few days later: the fact that the OP tried to have a stimulating discussion with her has nothing to do with it: she choose someone else and used that ‘argument’ as an excuse to blow him off!!

Ok, sorry. I wasn’t shouting 
This doesn’t sound good btw (your husband’s reaction). Everyone can get stressed etc but he shouldn’t be making you tremble with fear or cry. 
Give him a coupon to visit some cooking classes next time. Pffft!


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## 269370

BioFury said:


> No, I'm not in therapy. Nothing they can say is going to change my circumstances, and my circumstances are what the problem is.



You are intelligent enough I think to zoom in on your problem in this paragraph...
If your selection pool is ‘virgin only’ (how do you check?), then you may be limited to emotionally immature princesses...(not saying that all virgins are like that).
Can you not take a more....liberal approach to your faith and find a partner on the basis of their personality, rather than existence or non existence of their hymen?
I am not knocking your faith but I DO feel bad for you.



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## 269370

BioFury said:


> And my strategy has always been to not care. If you don't care, then no one can hurt you.


That is exactly right. It doesn’t mean you have to become an emotional iceberg...Just don’t let them close before you know it is safe to do so.



BioFury said:


> Because I believe it's the right one.



You can still believe it, just tweak a few things. People pick and choose all the time. You are old enough to decide for yourself what is best for you. Not your parents nor your church group or whatever.



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## Affaircare

@BioFury, 

I want to encourage you. I "get it" that you are a person who doesn't date casually due to religious reasons AND that those whom you would consider would be part of your community...and thus the selection is limited. I "get" that. Further, I also "get" the idea of playful banter via debate and playing devil's advocate. You remind me of my Dear Hubby (the one who passed away), in that he also loved the mindplay of taking the complete opposite side just so he could help someone present salient facts and see what they really, truly believed. He was also an intense introvert, so he had a very few lifelong buddies and me. 

Speaking as a female of the species, though, the first time he did that to me, I probably cried for a day because I thought he was attacking me (to me, debating = arguing = being yelled at). I had no idea that he was doing mental sparring. Rather than a well-choreographed intellectual fencing match, to me it felt like he took his sword and gutted me. THEN he explained it to me and I saw him do it with a couple of his friends and I began to get the hang of it. 

So I'm not saying she should have just dumped you like that...nor that what she did makes any sense. It seems to me like she didn't want to tell you the truth. But I AM saying that in the future, just know that not everyone knows about or understands or recognizes that kind of playful debating as a fun mental exercise. If you want to do it in the future, I think that would be you and would be cool, but lay out the rules of the game before you start to play...and let the other person know that you are playing for wittiness and unique thoughts (or whatever you are playing for...). 

In my instance, I did eventually learn to not only understand, but also enjoy those little cerebral games, but then I love wordplay and thinking outside the box. My game was always to come up with the absolutely MOST OUTRAGEOUS position possible (but defendable, based on the fact presented).


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## BioFury

InMyPrime said:


> Don’t. You probably dodged a bullet.
> She sounds high maintenance and like a very insecure person who needs constant validation and reassurance. It’s not your job to provide it.
> Was it some feminist issue?


No, it was a theological issue.



InMyPrime said:


> Why do you assume it was a misunderstanding?


Because the sentiments she labeled as my own, that she repeated to me while telling me it was over, were not at all what I had be trying to convey. 



InMyPrime said:


> You are intelligent enough I think to zoom in on your problem in this paragraph...
> If your selection pool is ‘virgin only’ (how do you check?), then you may be limited to emotionally immature princesses...(not saying that all virgins are like that).
> Can you not take a more....liberal approach to your faith and find a partner on the basis of their personality, rather than existence or non existence of their hymen?
> I am not knocking your faith but I DO feel bad for you.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't check. I trust that they're telling me the truth, one way or the other.

Whether or not a woman is a virgin is a reflection of her personality. I would consider a woman who was not a virgin, but it would be a huge turn off. Everything else about her would have to be just right. It's not something I would accept lightly.



InMyPrime said:


> That is exactly right. It doesn’t mean you have to become an emotional iceberg...Just don’t let them close before you know it is safe to do so.
> 
> You can still believe it, just tweak a few things. People pick and choose all the time. You are old enough to decide for yourself what is best for you. Not your parents nor your church group or whatever.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm already an emotional iceberg. The only time I open up, is with girls. They promptly stab me in the heart, and I rinse and repeat.


----------



## BioFury

StarFires said:


> @WorkingWife _"Maybe manslaughter or negligent something or other? But you do have to actually be GUILTY of something." _
> 
> He is guilty of something. He's guilty of being contrary and combative for no apparent reason at all because what he was saying and the challenging her that he was doing weren't even his own opinions. He's also guilty of making her feel that he "_clearly have no respect for her beliefs, or her convictions, because I sought to cast them down, or invalidate them_." She has been blown off and called names by people here, so you and they can keep doing that all you want. I choose to believe what she said. He didn't intend to do it and it's not what he meant, but if everything should be taken as "I didn't intend to" then there wouldn't be such a thing as gaslighting, and there also would be no need for the law that I mentioned because you know "I didn't mean it" is all the defense a person needs. I don't think he's gaslighting her, but he is guilty of what she said.
> 
> I got as far as you stating _"No where did he say he was talking down to her or even presenting the counterpoints as his opinion, he said he was asking her questions about her thoughts on the counterpoints"_ and couldn't read any further because that was just too much nonsensical conjecture to bother with. You have no idea how he was talking to her or why she felt the way she did. You refuse to see it despite him telling us several times. He told us what he did, his reasons, and his intentions. He also told us how she took it. I don't choose to invalidate her feelings the way you and he keep doing, especially since he stated himself "_The subject we were discussing was extremely important to them, and the things she_ thought _I meant were pretty bad. And I totally get how she could think that's what I meant_." Even the way he described his end of the conversation in his OP was enough for me to see her point of view. You don't, and that's too bad.
> 
> 
> I'm afraid this example you composed is another example of you missing the point.
> 
> Here's another one....
> 
> .... which kind of indicates you feel your apology should be accepted however you choose to compose it. You disagreed that your intentions don't matter and while that is indeed what I said, I was advising you not to include explanation of your intentions in your apology. You made her feel the way she said you made her feel, so your intentions don't exempt you from the offense and have no place in the apology itself. If the opportunity were to arise at a later time, then it would be okay to explain yourself. But at the time of the apology is not the time to do it because it suggests to your offended that you are not taking responsibility for the offense itself. Since you were doing that the last time you and she spoke ("refused to listen when I tried to explain my side"), it could be, and possibly was, the reason she asked you not to contact her anymore. You weren't talking right so however remorseful and genuine you might have felt, exempting yourself was exhausting and didn't indicate to her in any way that you were remorseful or sincere. You only served to clue her that she doesn't want the relationship after all, and she certainly didn't want to listen to you tell her how wrong she was for feeling the way you made her feel.
> 
> I know you're struggling, but this is quite disturbing. Both relationships and not having a relationship can be stressful, if not downright depressing. And your circumstances, as you said, make things even more difficult. But feeling the way you do is the biggest reason you should go to therapy. Your circumstance, you may find, isn't the only problem. Don't be opposed to trying it just because you can't imagine it helping.


I was never combative. I merely asked her what she thought.

Her being offended, doesn't make her right. If I were screaming at you for stealing my wallet, would you say "There's been a mistake, I didn't steal anything", or would you say "I'm sorry, what I did was wrong".

I'm more than willing to talk to a woman about how she's feeling, and apologize if I've offended her - regardless of whether it was my fault, or intended to give offense. But I'm not going to indulge erroneous beliefs about my behavior or intentions.

So using the wallet example, my response would be similar to "I'm sorry your wallet is missing, but I didn't take it babe". At which point I can help her find it, and resolve her feelings about the situation.



Blondilocks said:


> Am I understanding this correctly - your religion dictates that you must marry within the religion and that said person must be a virgin?
> 
> The pizza party story makes it sound as though you like girls considered to be out of your age bracket. Is their age a factor in mate selection? What is the typical marrying age? And, finally, were you born into the religion?
> 
> Thank you for helping us to attempt to help you.


No, but I want to marry a virgin. I think pre-marital sex cheapens marriage, and debases it to the level of any other relationship. And I don't want to be just another guy she's had sex with.



Affaircare said:


> @BioFury,
> 
> I want to encourage you. I "get it" that you are a person who doesn't date casually due to religious reasons AND that those whom you would consider would be part of your community...and thus the selection is limited. I "get" that. Further, I also "get" the idea of playful banter via debate and playing devil's advocate. You remind me of my Dear Hubby (the one who passed away), in that he also loved the mindplay of taking the complete opposite side just so he could help someone present salient facts and see what they really, truly believed. He was also an intense introvert, so he had a very few lifelong buddies and me.
> 
> Speaking as a female of the species, though, the first time he did that to me, I probably cried for a day because I thought he was attacking me (to me, debating = arguing = being yelled at). I had no idea that he was doing mental sparring. Rather than a well-choreographed intellectual fencing match, to me it felt like he took his sword and gutted me. THEN he explained it to me and I saw him do it with a couple of his friends and I began to get the hang of it.
> 
> So I'm not saying she should have just dumped you like that...nor that what she did makes any sense. It seems to me like she didn't want to tell you the truth. But I AM saying that in the future, just know that not everyone knows about or understands or recognizes that kind of playful debating as a fun mental exercise. If you want to do it in the future, I think that would be you and would be cool, but lay out the rules of the game before you start to play...and let the other person know that you are playing for wittiness and unique thoughts (or whatever you are playing for...).
> 
> In my instance, I did eventually learn to not only understand, but also enjoy those little cerebral games, but then I love wordplay and thinking outside the box. My game was always to come up with the absolutely MOST OUTRAGEOUS position possible (but defendable, based on the fact presented).


Thank you  I think what happened, is I felt comfortable with her, so I automatically treated her like a close friend. Which means discussing thoughts I'm having. I'll try to remember to avoid doing that in the future.


----------



## Affaircare

BioFury said:


> Thank you  I think what happened, is I felt comfortable with her, so I automatically treated her like a close friend. Which means discussing thoughts I'm having. I'll try to remember to avoid doing that in the future.


 @BioFury,

I think you may be throwing out a little bit of a martyr vibe, and I can understand why (after all breaking up hurts), but I hope you know that was not even close to what I was suggesting.

Yes, you felt comfortable and treated her like a close friend fairly quickly... but the long-term goal IS to find someone who is both your best friend and lover. Thus, sharing your thoughts is necessary! How can you be emotionally and mentally intimate if you don’t?

To me, it all boils down to this realization: not everything’s like me...not everyone feels like me. Soo stead of assuming that people play and enjoy those like witty games, why not share yourself and what you expect/hope for?


----------



## BioFury

Affaircare said:


> @BioFury,
> 
> I think you may be throwing out a little bit of a martyr vibe, and I can understand why (after all breaking up hurts), but I hope you know that was not even close to what I was suggesting.
> 
> Yes, you felt comfortable and treated her like a close friend fairly quickly... but the long-term goal IS to find someone who is both your best friend and lover. Thus, sharing your thoughts is necessary! How can you be emotionally and mentally intimate if you don’t?
> 
> To me, it all boils down to this realization: not everything’s like me...not everyone feels like me. Soo stead of assuming that people play and enjoy those like witty games, why not share yourself and what you expect/hope for?


Yeah, I am a little bitter about what happened. So I may be martyring it up a little. But I didn't take your input that way :smile2:

Well, I guess I just never considered that talking to people about thoughts and ideas wasn't something most people enjoyed. I mean, I thought that's what being with someone was all about? Sharing your thoughts, feelings, internal conflicts, inspiration, and fears.

The subject I was talking to her about wasn't something meaningless, and I wasn't trying to outwit her. It was something that would effect us as a couple, and I wanted us to explore it's in-and-out's. Thoughts had come to be about it, so I wanted to talk to her about them. Not to change her mind, but just so I would understand her better. So I could share what was going on inside me, and so that she could do the same, and us draw closer together as a result.


----------



## 269370

BioFury said:


> Whether or not a woman is a virgin is a reflection of her personality. I would consider a woman who was not a virgin, but it would be a huge turn off. Everything else about her would have to be just right. It's not something I would accept lightly.



At what point do you ask them (and how?) whether they are a virgin or not? This seems too personal somehow and would be a random question...

I realise you may have been indoctrinated differently, but whether a woman is a virgin or not is not reflection of her personality. There’s a very big spectrum between being a virgin and the village’s main ****... you can tell a lot more about a girl’s personality by looking at her....personality. I know it’s not your fault but unfortunately these societal customs are the main reason why people like @JustTheWife feel like they have no choice but lie about their past and suppress themselves. 

Look on the bright side, it’s good she showed her colours now, before you became more serious with each other. Later it would have been 10 times as painful.

I am curious what you were discussing though...

Actually today I remembered, just before I started dating my wife, we did have an argument where she thought I said something I didn’t say and got mad at me and said she would never speak to me if the thing I announced to her wasn’t actually true (it was something trivial but I had no idea why she thought I would make this up and got really mad at me). There was also another guy in the picture at the time. Anyway, part of me was thinking today ‘****, maybe I should tell him to fight for her, get her some flowers, write her a letter, try and speak with her or something’. But it’s risky...From your description, she sounds immature and unpredictable (and also easily influenced/controlled by her parents?). Or she might appreciate a romantic gesture who knows. I don’t know either of you (and even if I did, I probably wouldn’t be able to tell either...).





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BioFury

InMyPrime said:


> At what point do you ask them (and how?) whether they are a virgin or not? This seems too personal somehow and would be a random question...
> 
> I realise you may have been indoctrinated differently, but whether a woman is a virgin or not is not reflection of her personality. There’s a very big spectrum between being a virgin and the village’s main ****... you can tell a lot more about a girl’s personality by looking at her....personality. I know it’s not your fault but unfortunately these societal customs are the main reason why people like @JustTheWife feel like they have no choice but lie about their past and suppress themselves.
> 
> Look on the bright side, it’s good she showed her colours now, before you became more serious with each other. Later it would have been 10 times as painful.
> 
> I am curious what you were discussing though...
> 
> Actually today I remembered, just before I started dating my wife, we did have an argument where she thought I said something I didn’t say and got mad at me and said she would never speak to me if the thing I announced to her wasn’t actually true (it was something trivial but I had no idea why she thought I would make this up and got really mad at me). There was also another guy in the picture at the time. Anyway, part of me was thinking today ‘****, maybe I should tell him to fight for her, get her some flowers, write her a letter, try and speak with her or something’. But it’s risky...From your description, she sounds immature and unpredictable (and also easily influenced/controlled by her parents?). Or she might appreciate a romantic gesture who knows. I don’t know either of you (and even if I did, I probably wouldn’t be able to tell either...).
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wait until they start talking about sexual topics with me (kids, birth control, etc.), make an innuendo, or something like that. At which point I simply ask them. Though I don't phrase the question as "Are you a virgin?". I usually ask about previous relationships, and then if any of them were physical in nature. In our community, being a virgin is normal "looking for" criteria, though a lot of people are willing to accept non-virgin status. So the question isn't weird, just personal. I don't see how it would be random - sex is pretty relevant to marriage.

Sure it is. It reflects her values, morals, level of self control, and self-respect. Which isn't to say not being a virgin can't highlight positive qualities. Being extremely horny, would be a positive attribute. Not valuing a sexual bond, would be a negative one.

The nature of her past sexual relationships would also reflect on her. If she had sex with a boyfriend of 2 years because she thought they were about to marry, then that's more understandable. Sleeping with casual successive boyfriends, or drunken one night stands, are entirely different matters.

I did send her a letter, but addressed it to her parents, and told them they could share it with her if they deemed it appropriate. As I would consider it disrespectful to send her a romantic letter when she's in a relationship with someone else.

But yes, her behavior does make her seem quite immature and mercurial. It's just confusing, because none of her behavior previous to this had those characteristics. So either she's secretly crazy, or there's something about the situation that I don't understand.


----------



## 269370

BioFury said:


> I wait until they start talking about sexual topics with me (kids, birth control, etc.), make an innuendo, or something like that. At which point I simply ask them. Though I don't phrase the question as "Are you a virgin?". I usually ask about previous relationships, and then if any of them were physical in nature.


Still sounds a bit like something one would ask during a polygraph test...But ok if you can somehow do it 'smoothly' I suppose...



BioFury said:


> In our community, being a virgin is normal "looking for" criteria, though a lot of people are willing to accept non-virgin status. So the question isn't weird, just personal. I don't see how it would be random - *sex is pretty relevant to marriage*.


Sex is. Sexual past isn't. Or, rather, it shouldn't be. This whole thing about somehow being tarnished when one loses virginity is a very outdated concept, and very condescending towards women.



BioFury said:


> Sure it is. It reflects her values, morals, level of self control, and self-respect. Which isn't to say not being a virgin can't highlight positive qualities. Being extremely horny, would be a positive attribute. Not valuing a sexual bond, would be a negative one.


Let's look at reality: a woman decides to enter into a relationship with you. After 6 months or so and after getting to know each other well you sleep together. You both feel like you love each other and that there is a future. After two years, you begin to realise you have different priorities. Move to another city/country because of your job and decide to break up. After some time she meets someone else. What exactly does not being a virgin have to do anything about her values, morals or self control, at this point in time? I think you need to start thinking about these things for yourself a bit more otherwise you might have trouble in future mapping your views and values onto reality and miss out as a result...I think you have potentially healthy intuitions, but you need to rid yourself from certain preconceptions of the indoctrination in your town/group.



BioFury said:


> The nature of her past sexual relationships would also reflect on her. If she had sex with a boyfriend of 2 years because she thought they were about to marry, then that's more understandable. Sleeping with casual successive boyfriends, or drunken one night stands, are entirely different matters.


Yes of course. But why does her sexual past would have to answer to *you*? You can actually find out a lot about the person without prying into their sexual past and avoid having to make these judgements. You have a cognitive dissonance here: whether someone is a virgin or not is a binary determination. Yet she may have lost her virginity under 1,000 different circumstances (not a 1,000 times!) that are entirely unique and morally sound. Either you will have to remove the 'virgin' requirement from your criteria in future or you will have to stop taking circumstances into account. You can't really have yourself a virgin and be sympathetic to her circumstances of how she lost it...I think intuitively you know that this is an unreasonable expectation - you have too much respect for women to actually believe this.



BioFury said:


> I did send her a letter, but addressed it to her parents, and told them they could share it with her if they deemed it appropriate. As I would consider it disrespectful to send her a romantic letter when she's in a relationship with someone else.
> 
> But yes, her behavior does make her seem quite immature and mercurial. It's just confusing, because none of her behavior previous to this had those characteristics. So either she's secretly crazy, or there's something about the situation that I don't understand.


You probably don't know all the details. I wouldn't have given the letter to the parents...they will unfortunately probably never show it to her...since she may in any case be under pressure from her parents who seem to decide for her whom she is allowed to date (how old is she?).

Yes it can be brutal. Try not to put all your chips onto one girl (an advice I didn't follow myself at the time...) because it will be painful. You need to try and fall in love gradually...I don't know - it's not like it's easy to control. The way it helped me, I would often visualise and pretend I didn't care about girls, because I recognized early on (or perhaps felt so instinctively) that this is a very dangerous thing...You can ruin yourself for life with this. And I have seen it happen to people many times later on - some never recover (though you will).

If you BOTH had a strong connection, i think it is possible to 'win' her back. However if only *you* felt the connection, but she didn't, then it might be more difficult.

I am questioning more whether you'd *want* to win her back, given her behaviour/personality and crazy parents on top...It might turn out being a blessing in disguise in future...you never know.


----------



## stefanjames

If you BOTH had a strong connection, i think it is possible to 'win' her back. However if only you felt the connection, but she didn't, then it might be more difficult.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Look, Hoss, You dodged a bullet.

My take on this situation is that she was dating 2 guys the whole time and when one started to get serious she got scared and used the discussion as her out. That's why she all of a sudden was "with" someone within a week. She was with him the whole time. I could be wrong but that's the Occam's Razor reason I see.

That being said the whole devil's advocate thing is risky with anyone that you care about what they think of you. Either don't do it or do it with folks you don't care if you piss off.


----------



## Ms. Hawaii

BioFury said:


> I wait until they start talking about sexual topics with me (kids, birth control, etc.), make an innuendo, or something like that. At which point I simply ask them. Though I don't phrase the question as "Are you a virgin?". I usually ask about previous relationships, and then if any of them were physical in nature. In our community, being a virgin is normal "looking for" criteria, though a lot of people are willing to accept non-virgin status. So the question isn't weird, just personal. I don't see how it would be random - sex is pretty relevant to marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure it is. It reflects her values, morals, level of self control, and self-respect. Which isn't to say not being a virgin can't highlight positive qualities. Being extremely horny, would be a positive attribute. Not valuing a sexual bond, would be a negative one.
> 
> 
> 
> The nature of her past sexual relationships would also reflect on her. If she had sex with a boyfriend of 2 years because she thought they were about to marry, then that's more understandable. Sleeping with casual successive boyfriends, or drunken one night stands, are entirely different matters.
> 
> 
> 
> I did send her a letter, but addressed it to her parents, and told them they could share it with her if they deemed it appropriate. As I would consider it disrespectful to send her a romantic letter when she's in a relationship with someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> But yes, her behavior does make her seem quite immature and mercurial. It's just confusing, because none of her behavior previous to this had those characteristics. So either she's secretly crazy, or there's something about the situation that I don't understand.




How old are you?


----------



## BioFury

Ms. Hawaii said:


> How old are you?


Mid twenties.


----------



## Spicy

Was the subject you were playing devils advocate on something that is against your religion to feel/believe/think?

If so, she most likely ruled you out because of this. Your faith sounds very strict, and perhaps she wasn’t willing to risk being with you if you could ever take the stance you appeared to be taking.

So learn from this...if you merely want to discuss other sides of a matter, preface that with something like, “This isn’t my opinion, but what are your thoughts on XYZ?” It sounds like you are part of a very conservative group, and so more caution probably needs to be used.


----------



## BioFury

InMyPrime said:


> Still sounds a bit like something one would ask during a polygraph test...But ok if you can somehow do it 'smoothly' I suppose...
> 
> Sex is. Sexual past isn't. Or, rather, it shouldn't be. This whole thing about somehow being tarnished when one loses virginity is a very outdated concept, and very condescending towards women.
> 
> Let's look at reality: a woman decides to enter into a relationship with you. After 6 months or so and after getting to know each other well you sleep together. You both feel like you love each other and that there is a future. After two years, you begin to realise you have different priorities. Move to another city/country because of your job and decide to break up. After some time she meets someone else. What exactly does not being a virgin have to do anything about her values, morals or self control, at this point in time? I think you need to start thinking about these things for yourself a bit more otherwise you might have trouble in future mapping your views and values onto reality and miss out as a result...I think you have potentially healthy intuitions, but you need to rid yourself from certain preconceptions of the indoctrination in your town/group.
> 
> Yes of course. But why does her sexual past would have to answer to *you*? You can actually find out a lot about the person without prying into their sexual past and avoid having to make these judgements. You have a cognitive dissonance here: whether someone is a virgin or not is a binary determination. Yet she may have lost her virginity under 1,000 different circumstances (not a 1,000 times!) that are entirely unique and morally sound. Either you will have to remove the 'virgin' requirement from your criteria in future or you will have to stop taking circumstances into account. You can't really have yourself a virgin and be sympathetic to her circumstances of how she lost it...I think intuitively you know that this is an unreasonable expectation - you have too much respect for women to actually believe this.
> 
> You probably don't know all the details. I wouldn't have given the letter to the parents...they will unfortunately probably never show it to her...since she may in any case be under pressure from her parents who seem to decide for her whom she is allowed to date (how old is she?).
> 
> Yes it can be brutal. Try not to put all your chips onto one girl (an advice I didn't follow myself at the time...) because it will be painful. You need to try and fall in love gradually...I don't know - it's not like it's easy to control. The way it helped me, I would often visualise and pretend I didn't care about girls, because I recognized early on (or perhaps felt so instinctively) that this is a very dangerous thing...You can ruin yourself for life with this. And I have seen it happen to people many times later on - some never recover (though you will).
> 
> If you BOTH had a strong connection, i think it is possible to 'win' her back. However if only *you* felt the connection, but she didn't, then it might be more difficult.
> 
> I am questioning more whether you'd *want* to win her back, given her behaviour/personality and crazy parents on top...It might turn out being a blessing in disguise in future...you never know.


Well, her being a virgin matters to me. My sentiments on the matter are not directed at women. I've saved myself for marriage, because I believe the same applies to men. Virgin marriages have lower divorce rates, as well as the highest marital, and sexual, satisfaction. So I would assert that someone's sexual past _does_ matter, as demonstrated by said statistics.

Regarding the letter... I had the same concern - that her parents would not let her read it. But they did, and the girl contacted me. She said she was sorry, that she misunderstood me. I asked if her feelings about "us" had changed as a result of clearing this up, to which she said no.

I expressed confusion, stating that if the issues she brought up were the problems for which our relationship ended, why it would continue to be toast now that they're resolved. At which point she said she just didn't feel a spark, an attraction, upon meeting me. At which point I started listing off all the things she said and did, *unprompted* (meaning, she was in no was pressured to do them. She went out of her way), that communicated otherwise, and asked why she would lead me on like that if those things weren't true. Her response was to explain how "technically" this, that, and whatever, could, theoretically, be taken a different way than I did.

Like her saying "I hope you have me". She said, "key word being *hope*", and that it didn't, technically, mean she wanted to be mine. Lol.

Anyway, so that was nice. I don't know why she felt the need to respond to my letter, if she had nothing new to express. I hardly needed to hear "no problem, have a nice life" again. Being spurned by her once was quite enough.



Spicy said:


> Was the subject you were playing devils advocate on something that is against your religion to feel/believe/think?
> 
> If so, she most likely ruled you out because of this. Your faith sounds very strict, and perhaps she wasn’t willing to risk being with you if you could ever take the stance you appeared to be taking.
> 
> So learn from this...if you merely want to discuss other sides of a matter, preface that with something like, “This isn’t my opinion, but what are your thoughts on XYZ?” It sounds like you are part of a very conservative group, and so more caution probably needs to be used.


She's of the same faith I am. Strictness and all.


----------



## azimuth

Does your religion believe in forgiveness? Could you forgive a woman who was not a virgin, but who would be more of a match for you? The reason is that it seems like you've matured beyond these young girls. You like to have intellectual conversations. You challenged this girl intellectually and she couldn't take it. I remember another friend of yours said she wanted to have 6 kids or something, and you challenged her on that. Almost like you're self-sabotaging and you don't respect them. Are you happy now? I think true happiness would come from finding a partner who is on your level emotionally and intellectually. As a woman I can tell you there's no inherent value in my virginity. If you let that be the defining factor in your choice of a partner, you're going to get young girls aren't worldly or on the same level as you.


----------



## 269370

BioFury said:


> Well, her being a virgin matters to me. My sentiments on the matter are not directed at women. I've saved myself for marriage, because I believe the same applies to men. Virgin marriages have lower divorce rates, as well as the highest marital, and sexual, satisfaction. So I would assert that someone's sexual past _does_ matter, as demonstrated by said statistics.
> 
> Regarding the letter... I had the same concern - that her parents would not let her read it. But they did, and the girl contacted me. She said she was sorry, that she misunderstood me. I asked if her feelings about "us" had changed as a result of clearing this up, to which she said no.
> 
> I expressed confusion, stating that if the issues she brought up were the problems for which our relationship ended, why it would continue to be toast now that they're resolved. At which point she said she just didn't feel a spark, an attraction, upon meeting me. At which point I started listing off all the things she said and did, *unprompted* (meaning, she was in no was pressured to do them. She went out of her way), that communicated otherwise, and asked why she would lead me on like that if those things weren't true. Her response was to explain how "technically" this, that, and whatever, could, theoretically, be taken a different way than I did.
> 
> Like her saying "I hope you have me". She said, "key word being *hope*", and that it didn't, technically, mean she wanted to be mine. Lol.
> 
> Anyway, so that was nice. I don't know why she felt the need to respond to my letter, if she had nothing new to express. I hardly needed to hear "no problem, have a nice life" again. Being spurned by her once was quite enough.
> 
> 
> 
> She's of the same faith I am. Strictness and all.



Like I said, I think she used the ‘argument’ as an excuse to move on or maybe she was already with someone else or decided that it wasn’t for her...It happens. Try not to dwell on it (easy to say).

I’m not sure there’s any evidence or truth to the idea that virgin marriages have lower divorce rates and higher sexual satisfaction...
People who ‘save themselves’ would marry quicker, often without even knowing or understanding what sexual compatibility means, leading to disappointment and divorce...People with more experience know and understand what they want and what they need (and more importantly, what they DONT want). But obviously, it’s your decision.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks

You might get more relevant advice if you actually posted the subject of the theological discussion. Did it pertain to the man being the leader of the house and the wife has to submit to her husband?


----------



## personofinterest

Rubix Cubed said:


> That being said the whole devil's advocate thing is risky with anyone that you care about what they think of you. Either don't do it or do it with folks you don't care if you piss off.


Pretty much. And no, devil's advocate is not the same as regular, deep conversation. An emotionally intelligent person can have deep conversation without being contrary or playing devil's advocate.

That said, Bio wants to find a serious partner, and that means he probably DOESN'T want to date a girl who multi-dates, which I completely understand. I'm a one at a time person too.


----------



## personofinterest

> I expressed confusion, stating that if the issues she brought up were the problems for which our relationship ended, why it would continue to be toast now that they're resolved. At which point she said she just didn't feel a spark, an attraction, upon meeting me. At which point I started listing off all the things she said and did, unprompted (meaning, she was in no was pressured to do them. She went out of her way), that communicated otherwise, and asked why she would lead me on like that if those things weren't true. Her response was to explain how "technically" this, that, and whatever, could, theoretically, be taken a different way than I did.


You are not going to debate and argue someone into feeling something for you. Surely you know this.


----------



## Blondilocks

It should be noted that deep conversations are best held when face to face. Body language can not be read over a phone.

Many people (myself included) don't really like to talk on the phone. It's nothing more than a message device to me. Conversations are held in person.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> You are not going to debate and argue someone into feeling something for you. Surely you know this.


Yeah, I wasn't trying to. I have an easier time accepting things if I understand them. I just wanted to understand what happened, but her story continued to morph each time I poked it. So it doesn't appear that I'll have closure on this. I'll just know that I was dealing with a very disingenuous person, and that I can't believe anything a woman says or does.


----------



## personofinterest

BioFury said:


> Yeah, I wasn't trying to. I have an easier time accepting things if I understand them. I just wanted to understand what happened, but her story continued to morph each time I poked it. So it doesn't appear that I'll have closure on this. I'll just know that I was dealing with a very disingenuous person, and that I can't believe anything a woman says or does.


Actually, no. You were dealing with a woman who:

In the moment, in the beginning, was attracted to you
That attraction waned when you had the uncomfortable conversation
Even after the clarification, the bloom was off the rose
She already seems interested in someone else (which in itself means she probably wasn't the right kind for you - date-hopping is probably not what you want)

Believe it or not, people change their minds, and it isn't a character flaw. Neither is someone not being interested or not being interested anymore.

This is not meant to be rude, it's an honest question: Have you ever been tested to see whether you are on the spectrum. Both my adult kids are, and some of the ways you reason things out sounds like them.


----------



## BioFury

Blondilocks said:


> It should be noted that deep conversations are best held when face to face. Body language can not be read over a phone.
> 
> Many people (myself included) don't really like to talk on the phone. It's nothing more than a message device to me. Conversations are held in person.


I agree, but she doesn't. I'm sure she wouldn't want someone to treat her the way she treated me, but evidently, the golden rule isn't a standard in their household.


----------



## ConanHub

BioFury said:


> Yeah, I wasn't trying to. I have an easier time accepting things if I understand them. I just wanted to understand what happened, but her story continued to morph each time I poked it. So it doesn't appear that I'll have closure on this. I'll just know that I was dealing with a very disingenuous person, and that I can't believe anything a woman says or does.


You were dealing with a fickle and untrustworthy, probably immature, person.

Please don't ever believe you can't believe anything a woman says or does.

I have worlds of experience to offset that view and I understand that your path will be different than mine but, take a grizzled veterans word for it, women are just as (fill in the blank) as men but just have a few naturally and culturally imposed differences in how their behavior is expressed.


----------



## Blondilocks

BioFury said:


> Yeah, I wasn't trying to. I have an easier time accepting things if I understand them. I just wanted to understand what happened, but her story continued to morph each time I poked it. So it doesn't appear that I'll have closure on this. I'll just know that I was dealing with a very disingenuous person,* and that I can't believe anything a woman says or does.*


*
*

Here you go again with that martyr crap. It's obvious that you only want to whine or you would be posting the nitty-gritty of what the subject was.

You are anonymous on this forum. If you are so closed-mouth on an anonymous forum, I can't even imagine how you relate in real life where people can get a read on you.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> Actually, no. You were dealing with a woman who:
> 
> In the moment, in the beginning, was attracted to you
> That attraction waned when you had the uncomfortable conversation
> Even after the clarification, the bloom was off the rose
> She already seems interested in someone else (which in itself means she probably wasn't the right kind for you - date-hopping is probably not what you want)
> 
> Believe it or not, people change their minds, and it isn't a character flaw. Neither is someone not being interested or not being interested anymore.
> 
> This is not meant to be rude, it's an honest question: Have you ever been tested to see whether you are on the spectrum. Both my adult kids are, and some of the ways you reason things out sounds like them.


I don't have a problem with her changing her mind. I have a problem with her lying to me, and leading me on, when her feelings (she claimed) had changed. She continued to butter me up like morning toast, going out of her way to express interest (blowing me kisses, and all that unnecessary stuff), despite being completely uninterested? Something doesn't add up.

By "the spectrum" I presume you mean the autistic spectrum? No, I've never been tested. But I imagine most people are on the scale to some extent. Perhaps I'm more so, because of my anti-social tendencies, and difficulty letting things go.


----------



## BioFury

ConanHub said:


> You were dealing with a fickle and untrustworthy, probably immature, person.
> 
> Please don't ever believe you can't believe anything a woman says or does.
> 
> I have worlds of experience to offset that view and I understand that your path will be different than mine but, take a grizzled veterans word for it, women are just as (fill in the blank) as men but just have a few naturally and culturally imposed differences in how their behavior is expressed.


Yeah, I guess I just thought I would be exempted from dealing with that within my religion.

I know it sounds like I'm being dramatic, but this isn't the first time this has happened to me. Being used/played by women seems to be a consistent theme in my life. They pretend to like me for attention, pursue me until I start reciprocating, lead me on when their feelings have changed... I don't understand why stuff like this continues to happen to me.



Blondilocks said:


> Here you go again with that martyr crap. It's obvious that you only want to whine or you would be posting the nitty-gritty of what the subject was.
> 
> You are anonymous on this forum. If you are so closed-mouth on an anonymous forum, I can't even imagine how you relate in real life where people can get a read on you.


I do love to whine.

I'm not going to specify the subject matter, because it will derail the thread. If someone just has to know, I'll send it to them in PM.


----------



## 269370

BioFury said:


> I'll just know that I was dealing with a very disingenuous person, and that I can't believe anything a woman says or does.



That shouldn’t apply just to women...
But everything in small doses: it’s fine to question someone’s motives or be skeptical, especially if you don’t know them well enough.
There was probably a misunderstanding: she thought she was being friendly, you thought she led you on...Thong is, even if she was considering you as a romantic option, she has a right to change her mind. 
Try not to take it personally - she probably doesn’t know what she wants...




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----------



## ConanHub

BioFury said:


> Yeah, I guess I just thought I would be exempted from dealing with cruddy people within my religion. Her mom went on about how honest and loyal her daughter is, blah, blah, blah. What a load of bunk.
> 
> I know it sounds like I'm being dramatic, but this isn't the first time this has happened to me. Being used/played by women seems to be a consistent theme in my life. They pretend to like me for attention, pursue me until I start reciprocating, lead me on when their feelings have changed... I don't understand why stuff like this continues to happen to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I do love to whine.
> 
> I'm not going to specify the subject matter, because it will derail the thread. If someone just has to know, I'll send it to them in PM.


Are there any successful and experienced men within your religion you can get advice from? Talking to their wives in a couples setting would probably get you the best input or insight.

Religion can seriously hamper and eliminate down to earth discussion but if you can find someone willing to get to the nitty gritty of life issues, it would really help.


----------



## BioFury

ConanHub said:


> Are there any successful and experienced men within your religion you can get advice from? Talking to their wives in a couples setting would probably get you the best input or insight.
> 
> Religion can seriously hamper and eliminate down to earth discussion but if you can find someone willing to get to the nitty gritty of life issues, it would really help.


Not really. I'm not close enough to anyone to really ask that of them, and even if I was, they chalk up everything to "God's will". Every problem boils down to "pray more and everything will be fine", and I've had enough idealistic crap.

Which is probably why a lot of girls are turned off. I don't suck idealistic garbage up through a straw. I live in the real world, and that's not exciting enough for them. Maybe I'll try screaming about the Holy Spirit next time, see if that makes a difference.


----------



## Blondilocks

BioFury said:


> Not really. I'm not close enough to anyone to really ask that of them, and even if I was, they chalk up everything to "God's will". Every problem boils down to "pray more and everything will be fine", and I've had enough idealistic crap.
> 
> Which is probably why a lot of girls are turned off. I don't suck idealistic garbage up through a straw. I live in the real world, and that's not exciting enough for them. Maybe I'll try screaming about the Holy Spirit next time, see if that makes a difference.


I have asked if you were born into this religion. No answer.

So, I'll leave you with this to ponder: did you choose this religion for what you can get out of it versus truly believing? 

The girls you are pursuing may truly believe and suspect that you don't. It's one thing to commit yourself to a restricted life to abide by your faith and another to yoke yourself to a person who picks & chooses which parts of that religion they find relevant.

If this keeps happening to you, look in the mirror because you are the common denominator. Examine why you chose this religion and be totally honest with yourself. You can only hide from the outside world for so long. Good luck.


----------



## 269370

BioFury said:


> Not really. I'm not close enough to anyone to really ask that of them, and even if I was, they chalk up everything to "God's will". Every problem boils down to "pray more and everything will be fine", and I've had enough idealistic crap.



Yep. I think you’re getting there and getting out of this bubble. Unfortunately religion won’t guarantee personal qualities...Nothing can. It’s down to the person. I know it doesn’t make it better but it’s better to learn these lessons early on.



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----------



## personofinterest

BioFury said:


> Yeah, I guess I just thought I would be exempted from dealing with cruddy people within my religion. Her mom went on about how honest and loyal her daughter is, blah, blah, blah. What a load of bunk.
> 
> I know it sounds like I'm being dramatic, but this isn't the first time this has happened to me. Being used/played by women seems to be a consistent theme in my life. They pretend to like me for attention, pursue me until I start reciprocating, lead me on when their feelings have changed... I don't understand why stuff like this continues to happen to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I do love to whine.
> 
> I'm not going to specify the subject matter, because it will derail the thread. If someone just has to know, I'll send it to them in PM.


So now she's a "cruddy person"?

I'm sorry, that you cannot see how ridiculous that is should give you some clue as to why you struggle dating.

Your either/or extreme black/white manner of judging people is very offputting. And I'm not talking about Bibliocal absolutes here.

This is basically: she seemed interested but didn't stay interested, so she's a liar and a cruddy person.

Honestly, this is incel thinking 101

And sadly, I am not surprised at exactly who is fostering this kind of thinking in you.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> So now she's a "cruddy person"?
> 
> I'm sorry, that you cannot see how ridiculous that is should give you some clue as to why you struggle dating.
> 
> Your either/or extreme black/white manner of judging people is very offputting. And I'm not talking about Bibliocal absolutes here.
> 
> This is basically: she seemed interested but didn't stay interested, so she's a liar and a cruddy person.
> 
> Honestly, this is incel thinking 101
> 
> And sadly, I am not surprised at exactly who is fostering this kind of thinking in you.


POF, as I already stated, her changing her mind is understandable, and fine. Although disappointing.

My issue, is that she lied to me, led me on, and then cut me off without warning or discussion.


----------



## BioFury

Blondilocks said:


> I have asked if you were born into this religion. No answer.
> 
> So, I'll leave you with this to ponder: did you choose this religion for what you can get out of it versus truly believing?
> 
> The girls you are pursuing may truly believe and suspect that you don't. It's one thing to commit yourself to a restricted life to abide by your faith and another to yoke yourself to a person who picks & chooses which parts of that religion they find relevant.
> 
> If this keeps happening to you, look in the mirror because you are the common denominator. Examine why you chose this religion and be totally honest with yourself. You can only hide from the outside world for so long. Good luck.


No, I was not born into it. I was raised in it.

I've chosen this religion because I believe it to be true, and right. Not because I'm overcome with emotion about how wonderful it is.

I think the girls I'm pursuing have just had breezy lives, insulated from the kind of hardship my faith has put me through. They've never had to make big sacrifices for their faith, or endure crippling losses. So they don't understand why I'm somber, and not overjoyed about the whole experience.


----------



## Tasorundo

Bio, the people in your religion, are people, just like the people not in your religion.

Just like the person that had sex and the person that didn't. You may be a virgin, but you have committed adultery and murder. Just because your wiener didn't make in a vajayjay, you aren't pure.


----------



## ReformedHubby

BioFury said:


> No, I was not born into it. I was raised in it.
> 
> I've chosen this religion because I believe it to be true, and right. Not because I'm overcome with emotion about how wonderful it is.
> 
> *I think the girls I'm pursuing have just had breezy lives, insulated from the kind of hardship my faith has put me through. They've never had to make big sacrifices for their faith, or endure crippling losses. So they don't understand why I'm somber, and not overjoyed about the whole experience.*


I wish I could help you, but I'm not sure how. I don't really know how to navigate the social construct of dating within your religion. With that said, I do know people, and the vibe you give off when you talk about the women you have an interest in isn't positive. I think they can sense it too. I don't mean this to hurt you, but I think if you are looking to turn things around on the dating front, I think you need to look inwards. I guess I'm saying, maybe its not them. Because things always seem to turn out similarly for you.


----------



## personofinterest

ReformedHubby said:


> I wish I could help you, but I'm not sure how. I don't really know how to navigate the social construct of dating within your religion. With that said, I do know people, and the vibe you give off when you talk about the women you have an interest in isn't positive. I think they can sense it too. I don't mean this to hurt you, but I think if you are looking to turn things around on the dating front, I think you need to look inwards. I guess I'm saying, maybe its not them. Because things always seem to turn out similarly for you.


Exactly. The arrogance, superiority, and dislike of women oozes from his posts.

Add that to the hypocrisy of wanting a pure woman while he spends time on forums joking about sex and flirting sexually with strangers who do not share his faith, and we have a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> Exactly. The arrogance, superiority, and dislike of women oozes from his posts.
> 
> Add that to the hypocrisy of wanting a pure woman while he spends time on forums joking about sex and flirting sexually with strangers who do not share his faith, and we have a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.


Would you care to explain why you think I'm arrogant and hate women?

You seem to have a special talent for strawmans. I'm a virgin, therefore, by definition, it is not hypocritical for me to desire a woman be a virgin as well. As I already told you, I don't need her to be a saint. I'm certainly not.


----------



## personofinterest

BioFury said:


> Would you care to explain why you think I'm arrogant and hate women?
> 
> You seem to have a special talent for strawmans. I'm a virgin, therefore, by definition, it is not hypocritical for me to desire a woman be a virgin as well. As I already told you, I don't need her to be a saint. I'm certainly not.


There is nothing hypocritical about wanting to marry a virgin. I wanted the same thing and was a virgin when I married one.

But the same Bible that talks about virginity talks about lust, coarse jesting, defrauding, etc. I find it interesting that you have made such a big deal at times of what a woman says or wears, and yet you see nothing wrong with sexual innuendos and sexually flirtatious conversations with women you have never even met online. Seriously, Biblically, do you NOT see the hypocrisy in that?

And I say you do not respect women because your view seems to revolve around how they should serve you, the fact that they must be defective if they do not continue to have feelings for you, and when something doesn't work out, your default position is that the woman was "cruddy."

If every woman you have ever wanted to be with or tried to date has had the same issue....maybe it is not the women who are the issue.

You are arrogant because you are incapable of being wrong. About anything. I sense zero humility from you.


----------



## BioFury

ReformedHubby said:


> I wish I could help you, but I'm not sure how. I don't really know how to navigate the social construct of dating within your religion. With that said, I do know people, *and the vibe you give off when you talk about the women you have an interest in isn't positive.* I think they can sense it too. I don't mean this to hurt you, but I think if you are looking to turn things around on the dating front, I think you need to look inwards. I guess I'm saying, maybe its not them. Because things always seem to turn out similarly for you.


Perhaps because the ones I have cause to speak of, behave in negative ways?

I'm entirely willing to do some introspection, but people's critiques of me usually land wide of the mark. Like POF's "he's arrogant and hates women". Um, ok. Not sure where that came from. And can't really do anything with it, since it's not true.

I think I'm usually very articulate, so I don't understand why people misunderstand me as much as they do. Maybe I'm crazy. Hope not.


----------



## personofinterest

BioFury said:


> Perhaps because the ones I have cause to speak of, behave in negative ways?
> 
> I'm entirely willing to do some introspection, but people's critiques of me usually land wide of the mark. Like POF's "he's arrogant and hates women". Um, ok. Not sure where that came from. And can't really do anything with it, since it's not true.
> 
> I think I'm usually very articulate, so I don't understand why people misunderstand me as much as they do. Maybe I'm crazy. Hope not.


You are absolutely very articulate. Which is why so many people are so certain of how you come across. How many critiques would you say you have encountered and dismissed as being "off the mark"?

If every woman you encounter "behaves in negative ways".....I mean, you do see how statistically unlikely that is, right?


----------



## MrsAldi

Are you looking for a virgin before marriage and then a housewife etc? 

Would you be more inclined towards a traditional relationship/marriage?

Nothing wrong with wanting that, but be careful with having a lot of expectations and learning to compromise in your requirements would help in the future. 

Also bringing up political and religious stuff in the early stages of dating ruins potential chemistry. You'll have plenty of time to debate that stuff when you're married! If you love someone very much, you will be surprised how little religion & politics matter.


----------



## Blondilocks

I have a friend who was a Big-Mac loving gal. Two years ago she started to eat vegan and told her husband she would be happy to cook him his favorite meats etc. He said that he would eat the same as her and half heartedly embraced it. She says he makes her miserable with his mopeyness and just wishes he would go to McD's and get it over with. He takes the joy out of her life over this.

The moral of this little tale is the women may not want to get together with someone who isn't joyful in their chosen religion.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> There is nothing hypocritical about wanting to marry a virgin. I wanted the same thing and was a virgin when I married one.
> 
> But the same Bible that talks about virginity talks about lust, coarse jesting, defrauding, etc. I find it interesting that you have made such a big deal at times of what a woman says or wears, and yet you see nothing wrong with sexual innuendos and sexually flirtatious conversations with women you have never even met online. Seriously, Biblically, do you NOT see the hypocrisy in that?
> 
> And I say you do not respect women because your view seems to revolve around how they should serve you, the fact that they must be defective if they do not continue to have feelings for you, and when something doesn't work out, your default position is that the woman was "cruddy."
> 
> If every woman you have ever wanted to be with or tried to date has had the same issue....maybe it is not the women who are the issue.
> 
> You are arrogant because you are incapable of being wrong. About anything. I sense zero humility from you.


If you view the biblical standard as being a singular whole, then yes, I'd be a hypocrite. But I don't think anyone truly does apply the bible that way. You would after all, judge the sin of murder, to be worse than that of theft, and so does God. With that in mind, I would assert that being a hypocrite is judging someone else by a standard that is not applied to oneself. As an example, if I speed, I can't then condemn someone else for speeding. But as a speeder, I can very well condemn someone for spray painting the side of my house. Because I don't go around spray painting other people's houses. Do you think that thought process is defective?

Defective if they don't like me? POF, I never said anything like that. Yes, the girl changing her mind was disappointing. But I didn't start this thread because she changed her mind. I started this thread, because she cut me off without discussion or warning, hours after telling me she had strong feelings for me, in response to something I had said. Which in itself, is careless and very inconsiderate. Then, after the misunderstanding for which she toasted the relationship had been cleared up (no thanks to her), she said she still wasn't interested. Confused, I asked why, and her story morphed and changed every time I dispelled whatever misunderstanding, or fallacy, she was attempting to base her disinterest on.

_That_, is why I said she's a cruddy person. Because she knowingly behaved in a heartless, and dishonest fashion, towards someone she claimed to care about. Not because she doesn't think I'm awesome, and refuses to feed me grapes.

I'm entirely willing to be wrong, I don't consider myself infallible. But surely you don't expect me to just fall over and accept that other people are right, merely because they say I'm wrong. If someone thinks I'm wrong, then they need to explain it to me, and show me how I'm mistaken. Is that too much to ask?


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Exactly. The arrogance, superiority, and dislike of women oozes from his posts.



I don’t get that from the posts at all. It’s just what someone sounds like when they have been wounded. He’s actually quite composed given that he just had a heart break.




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----------



## Tasorundo

You mentioned that they haven’t sacrificed for the faith like you, what does that mean?

What have you let go of that you value so greatly? Also, why would you consider it sacrifice, if you did it willingly for something you believe better?

To me, you sound angry, bitter, and entitled. Like the religion owes you a bride, and these women should think you hung the moon.


----------



## Tasorundo

God doesn’t consider murder worse than theft. All of it is an abomination.


----------



## ReformedHubby

InMyPrime said:


> I don’t get that from the posts at all. It’s just what someone sounds like when they have been wounded. He’s actually quite composed given that he just had a heart break.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Heart break? This is a case of a huge over reaction to something that never even was a "thing/relationship" if you know what I mean. This is not some epic betrayal. Its simply a case of a young lady not being mature enough to tell him she isn't interested. It happens. If he approaches the start of every new potential relationship in the same way...the results will remain the same.


----------



## azimuth

BioFury said:


> *Perhaps because the ones I have cause to speak of, behave in negative ways?*
> 
> I'm entirely willing to do some introspection, but people's critiques of me usually land wide of the mark. Like POF's "he's arrogant and hates women". Um, ok. Not sure where that came from. And can't really do anything with it, since it's not true.
> 
> I think I'm usually very articulate, so I don't understand why people misunderstand me as much as they do. Maybe I'm crazy. Hope not.



You're dating very young, immature girls. They don't have experience with boys and relationships. They haven't had a lot of deep intellectual conversations. You can't judge them the same way you'd judge one of your peers.


----------



## 269370

ReformedHubby said:


> Heart break? This is a case of a huge over reaction to something that never even was a "thing/relationship" if you know what I mean. This is not some epic betrayal. Its simply a case of a young lady not being mature enough to tell him she isn't interested. It happens. If he approaches the start of every new potential relationship in the same way...the results will remain the same.




I agree, falling in love would be considered by some an ‘overreaction’, while for others, a perfectly natural phenomenon. It depends from where you are sitting. Unrequited love is one of the single most powerful emotions and inspired many to put that pain into greatest masterpieces.
Anyway, my advice is: it’s not worth it. Treat everyone with respect but keep your emotions in check till it is ‘safe’. This is painful but will pass. They don’t do it on purpose, if they don’t feel the same way back.


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----------



## ReformedHubby

InMyPrime said:


> I agree, falling in love would be considered by some an ‘overreaction’, while for others, a perfectly natural phenomenon. It depends from where you are sitting. Unrequited love is one of the single most powerful emotions and inspired many to put that pain into greatest masterpieces.
> Anyway, my advice is: it’s not worth it. Treat everyone with respect but keep your emotions in check till it is ‘safe’. This is painful but will pass. They don’t do it on purpose, if they don’t feel the same way back.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I would encourage you to read all of his previous posts...he seems to be enamored with most fairly quickly. I am not trying to be harsh to the OP. If he doesn't change something he is unlikely to find what he is seeking. Making this girl the bad guy isn't helpful to him IMO. Not saying thats what you are doing though.


----------



## 269370

ReformedHubby said:


> Making this girl the bad guy isn't helpful to him IMO.



I am not sure he is. I think it’s called the ‘5 stages of grief’, or whatever it is: denial, anger, bargaining, grief, acceptance. Dunno if I got the order right.
He hasn’t developed the thick skin yet.



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----------



## Spicy

_*



Was the subject you were playing devils advocate on something that is against your religion to feel/believe/think?

Click to expand...

*_


> She's of the same faith I am. Strictness and all



You didn’t answer the only question I asked you. We all clearly know she is the same faith as you. Care to answer what I asked?


----------



## personofinterest

Spicy said:


> _*
> 
> 
> 
> Was the subject you were playing devils advocate on something that is against your religion to feel/believe/think?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *_
> 
> 
> 
> She's of the same faith I am. Strictness and all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You didn’t answer the only question I asked you. We all clearly know she is the same faith as you. Care to answer what I asked?
Click to expand...

 I am guessing that the topic is something he knows will spark a controversy, and that is why he is not being specific. Depending on what it is, I kind of don't blame him. It's really hard to openly talk about some of the specifics of conservative faith on a forum like this period the people who don't like Christianity to seem to jump out of the wood work and Attempt to play gotcha


----------



## Prodigal

BioFury said:


> Being used/played by women seems to be a consistent theme in my life. They pretend to like me for attention, pursue me until I start reciprocating, lead me on when their feelings have changed... I don't understand why stuff like this continues to happen to me.


The one constant in this variable equation is you.

Doing some hard-core insight may be helpful.


----------



## ReformedHubby

InMyPrime said:


> I am not sure he is. I think it’s called the ‘5 stages of grief’, or whatever it is: denial, anger, bargaining, grief, acceptance. Dunno if I got the order right.
> He hasn’t developed the thick skin yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hear, but going through the five stages of grief on every potential women that you are attracted to is a bit much. Thats the pattern I am noticing...but...I could be wrong.


----------



## Prodigal

BioFury said:


> Yes, the religion makes me extremely unhappy. But only because it isolates me, and makes it difficult for me to find anyone I can enter a meaningful relationship with.


Yet you later claim that you remain in your religion because it is the right one for you. 

This sounds contradictory to me. Why not find another religious sect which could be a better fit for you? You sound like an unhappy camper, based on what you have said about this "religion." As I recall Jesus proclaimed that he came that we may have an abundant, satisfying life (or something to that effect). Y'know … cast your cares and all that. (And I am not saying that facetiously.)


----------



## BioFury

ReformedHubby said:


> I would encourage you to read all of his previous posts...he seems to be enamored with most fairly quickly. I am not trying to be harsh to the OP. If he doesn't change something he is unlikely to find what he is seeking. Making this girl the bad guy isn't helpful to him IMO. Not saying thats what you are doing though.





ReformedHubby said:


> I hear, but going through the five stages of grief on every potential women that you are attracted to is a bit much. Thats the pattern I am noticing...but...I could be wrong.


You're only seeing part of the story. I talk to a lot more women than I ever make posts about. Yes, I got attached to this girl, as well as one in January, rather quickly. Because I know exactly what I'm looking for, and they were it. All the women in between them... not so much.



Spicy said:


> You didn’t answer the only question I asked you. We all clearly know she is the same faith as you. Care to answer what I asked?


No, it was not against my beliefs. It was a religious conviction of hers, that she wanted me to participate in with her.



personofinterest said:


> I am guessing that the topic is something he knows will spark a controversy, and that is why he is not being specific. Depending on what it is, I kind of don't blame him. It's really hard to openly talk about some of the specifics of conservative faith on a forum like this period the people who don't like Christianity to seem to jump out of the wood work and Attempt to play gotcha


Yeah, if I specified, no one would be able to let it be. It'd take the spotlight, when it's not the issue.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> You are absolutely very articulate. Which is why so many people are so certain of how you come across. How many critiques would you say you have encountered and dismissed as being "off the mark"?
> 
> If every woman you encounter "behaves in negative ways".....I mean, you do see how statistically unlikely that is, right?


Not every woman I encounter behaves in a negative way. Most come and go without much fanfare. This kind of behavior does recur (girls using me for attention, leading me on, etc.), but it's not every single girl. It's just happened 3-4 times, by girls that I was particularly interested in. This one being the latest.



MrsAldi said:


> Are you looking for a virgin before marriage and then a housewife etc?
> 
> Would you be more inclined towards a traditional relationship/marriage?
> 
> Nothing wrong with wanting that, but be careful with having a lot of expectations and learning to compromise in your requirements would help in the future.
> 
> Also bringing up political and religious stuff in the early stages of dating ruins potential chemistry. You'll have plenty of time to debate that stuff when you're married! If you love someone very much, you will be surprised how little religion & politics matter.


Yes. 

Yes  

That's not really the case here. For most people, politics and religion don't matter. But our political and religious beliefs reflect our core values. And if those values are not in alignment, then it can play havoc on the emotional unity of the couple.

If my beliefs were merely an egotistical reflection of my own priorities, then sure, I could compromise them if my ego would be gratified to a greater degree by the relationship. But I don't hold my religious beliefs because they serve me, I hold them because I believe them to be right.



Blondilocks said:


> I have a friend who was a Big-Mac loving gal. Two years ago she started to eat vegan and told her husband she would be happy to cook him his favorite meats etc. He said that he would eat the same as her and half heartedly embraced it. She says he makes her miserable with his mopeyness and just wishes he would go to McD's and get it over with. He takes the joy out of her life over this.
> 
> The moral of this little tale is the women may not want to get together with someone who isn't joyful in their chosen religion.


I'm not a sourpuss. If you want to jump up and down, more power to you. What I was saying, is that _they_ think something is wrong with _me_, because I don't jump up and down. Not that I despise people who are excited, and do my best to ruin it for them.



InMyPrime said:


> I agree, falling in love would be considered by some an ‘overreaction’, while for others, a perfectly natural phenomenon. It depends from where you are sitting. Unrequited love is one of the single most powerful emotions and inspired many to put that pain into greatest masterpieces.
> Anyway, my advice is: it’s not worth it. *Treat everyone with respect but keep your emotions in check till it is ‘safe’. *This is painful but will pass. They don’t do it on purpose, if they don’t feel the same way back.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I thought it was. Most people dislike me after getting to know me, which is why I asked her how she felt at the end of the day. She had spent the day with me, and said she still felt strongly about me. She was all giddy and excited, so I thought it was safe.

Three hours later, I learned otherwise.


----------



## Blondilocks

"I thought it was. *Most people dislike me after getting to know me*, which is why I asked her how she felt at the end of the day. She had spent the day with me, and said she still felt strongly about me. She was all giddy and excited, so I thought it was safe."

OK. You can not just throw this out there. 

Would you care to explain why or are you merely speculating?


----------



## BioFury

Blondilocks said:


> "I thought it was. *Most people dislike me after getting to know me*, which is why I asked her how she felt at the end of the day. She had spent the day with me, and said she still felt strongly about me. She was all giddy and excited, so I thought it was safe."
> 
> OK. You can not just throw this out there.
> 
> Would you care to explain why or are you merely speculating?


I obviously don't ask people explicitly, but I look at their actions.

In a nutshell, I'm too weird for normal people, and too normal for weird people. My religious beliefs and conservative convictions naturally create distance between "normal" people, and me. While my normal side (sex drive, love of video games, movies, politically incorrect manner of expression, and lack of screaming about the Holy Spirit), distance me from the "weird" ultra conservative religious types that I have the privilege of calling my compatriots. This last girl was special, because she had the same levels of weird and normal as I do, on the same subjects I do. Which as you can imagine, is a rare find.

But outside of all of that, I had some emotionally traumatizing experiences in a social setting when I was a teen, and it caused me to become rather standoffish. People's impression of me is usually that I'm stern, cold, or there to murder them (actual quote). But I warm up after I get to know people, provided I don't dislike them.


----------



## Blondilocks

BioFury said:


> I obviously don't ask people explicitly, but I look at their actions.
> 
> In a nutshell, I'm too weird for normal people, and too normal for weird people. My religious beliefs and conservative convictions naturally create distance between "normal" people, and me. While my normal side (sex drive, love of video games, movies, politically incorrect manner of expression, and lack of screaming about the Holy Spirit), distance me from the "weird" ultra conservative religious types that I have the privilege of calling my compatriots. This last girl was special, because she had the same levels of weird and normal as I do, on the same subjects I do. Which as you can imagine, is a rare find.
> 
> But outside of all of that, I had some emotionally traumatizing experiences in a social setting when I was a teen, and it caused me to become rather standoffish. People's impression of me is usually that I'm stern, cold, or there to murder them (actual quote). But I warm up after I get to know people, provided I don't dislike them.


Well, it seems that you could use some help with your interpersonal skills. Perhaps you could request @Lila to fill you in on the benefits of a life coach. Because, you are too young to be this jaded and disheartened about life. A little tweaking here and there and you may find just what you are looking for in life and in a wife.

Oftentimes, it isn't what you say but, rather, how you say it that turns people off. Chin up! You'll get there.


----------



## BioFury

Blondilocks said:


> Well, it seems that you could use some help with your interpersonal skills. Perhaps you could request @Lila to fill you in on the benefits of a life coach. Because, you are too young to be this jaded and disheartened about life. A little tweaking here and there and you may find just what you are looking for in life and in a wife.
> 
> Oftentimes, it isn't what you say but, rather, how you say it that turns people off. Chin up! You'll get there.


An older mentor would probably help. I've thought about asking Conan for help, since women seem to love him. But I'm a stranger, and don't know anyone personally that's "successful", that I can ask for help.

Yeah, I rarely talk to people in person, so I have little experience communicating the "right" way.


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> But our political and religious beliefs reflect our core values. And if those values are not in alignment, then it can play havoc on the emotional unity of the couple.


I totally agree with this. I can have friends whose with different political and religious views than me. even different values to some extent. 
But I would never consider a serious romantic relationship with a partner whose religious and political views were different than mine. They reflect my core values and I hold those values for a reason. To be partnered with someone with different core values than me would just be unworkable.



BioFury said:


> I thought it was. Most people dislike me after getting to know me, which is why I asked her how she felt at the end of the day. She had spent the day with me, and said she still felt strongly about me. She was all giddy and excited, so I thought it was safe.


1) Why do most people dislike you after getting to know you?

2) I think a lot of women, especially younger ones, lead men on because they're nice (and weak), not because they're mean or cruel, but because it is so hard to reject someone you like but are not "feeling it" for. I'm sure I did it when I was younger. It's immature and ultimately is mean, but if a man asked me point blank at the end of a day together "How do you feel?", unless I actively *disliked* him I would probably whiff the opportunity to be honest and say something like "Great, wonderful, you're awesome." Just because I would feel so bad hurting his feelings and so awkward especially doing it to his face.

Even today, now that I'm more mature and understand more, it's the #1 reason I dreaded dating when I got divorced. A friend told me she hated dating because she felt so judged and worried people wouldn't like her. I hate it too but my reason is because I worry guys WILL like me but I won't like them back the same way and I'll have to hurt their feelings. (Maybe *I'm *a narcissist :surprise:, LOL.)



BioFury said:


> Three hours later, I learned otherwise.


That is the truly baffling thing. But maybe that's her pattern -- too weak to tell you she wasn't enjoying the conversation even though she acted like she did, then too weak to tell you to your face that she really wasn't interested.


----------



## BioFury

WorkingWife said:


> I totally agree with this. I can have friends whose with different political and religious views than me. even different values to some extent.
> But I would never consider a serious romantic relationship with a partner whose religious and political views were different than mine. They reflect my core values and I hold those values for a reason. To be partnered with someone with different core values than me would just be unworkable.
> 
> 1) Why do most people dislike you after getting to know you?


In a nutshell, I'm too weird for normal people, and too normal for weird people. My religious beliefs and conservative convictions naturally create distance between "normal" people, and me. While my normal side (sex drive, love of video games, movies, politically incorrect manner of expression, and lack of screaming about the Holy Spirit), distance me from the "weird" ultra conservative religious types that I have the privilege of calling my compatriots. So regardless of who I'm talking to, I generally have a major character "flaw" in their eyes.

And outside of that, I had some emotionally traumatizing experiences in a social setting when I was a teen, and it caused me to become rather standoffish. People's impression of me is usually that I'm stern, cold, or there to murder them (actual quote). But I warm up after I get to know people, provided I don't dislike them.



WorkingWife said:


> 2) I think a lot of women, especially younger ones, lead men on because they're nice (and weak), not because they're mean or cruel, but because it is so hard to reject someone you like but are not "feeling it" for. I'm sure I did it when I was younger. It's immature and ultimately is mean, but if a man asked me point blank at the end of a day together "How do you feel?", unless I actively *disliked* him I would probably whiff the opportunity to be honest and say something like "Great, wonderful, you're awesome." Just because I would feel so bad hurting his feelings and so awkward especially doing it to his face.
> 
> Even today, now that I'm more mature and understand more, it's the #1 reason I dreaded dating when I got divorced. A friend told me she hated dating because she felt so judged and worried people wouldn't like her. I hate it too but my reason is because I worry guys WILL like me but I won't like them back the same way and I'll have to hurt their feelings. (Maybe *I'm *a narcissist :surprise:, LOL.)


Yeah, that's what she said, in the 3rd version of the story anyway. That I had "put her on the spot" when I asked, and that when she said she felt the same, and that her feelings were growing stronger, that those were feelings of uncertainty - not love. To which I responded (referencing something she told me during the same conversation) "You would seriously have me believe that you were giddy about the prospect of telling all your friends how uncertain you were about me?"

Her story then went through it's 4th revision, to "Well, I still felt something then, but that changed later". By later, you mean when you were blowing me kisses? :|



WorkingWife said:


> That is the truly baffling thing. But maybe that's her pattern -- too weak to tell you she wasn't enjoying the conversation even though she acted like she did, then too weak to tell you to your face that she really wasn't interested.


Yeah, I'd understand that - if she had been kind when breaking up with me. But she wasn't. She was stone cold, in full "we're over, you mean nothing, don't talk to me" mode.


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> In a nutshell, I'm too weird for normal people, and too normal for weird people. My religious beliefs and conservative convictions naturally create distance between "normal" people, and me. While my normal side (sex drive, love of video games, movies, politically incorrect manner of expression, and lack of screaming about the Holy Spirit), distance me from the "weird" ultra conservative religious types that I have the privilege of calling my compatriots. So regardless of who I'm talking to, I generally have a major character "flaw" in their eyes.
> 
> And outside of that, I had some emotionally traumatizing experiences in a social setting when I was a teen, and it caused me to become rather standoffish. People's impression of me is usually that I'm stern, cold, or there to murder them (actual quote). But I warm up after I get to know people, provided I don't dislike them.


That makes sense. You're "there to murder them" seems a bit of an over-reaction! Though it did make me laugh.



BioFury said:


> Yeah, that's what she said, in the 3rd version of the story anyway. That I had "put her on the spot" when I asked, and that when she said she felt the same, and that her feelings were growing stronger, that those were feelings of uncertainty - not love. To which I responded (referencing something she told me during the same conversation) "You would seriously have me believe that you were giddy about the prospect of telling all your friends how uncertain you were about me?"
> 
> Her story then went through it's 4th revision, to "Well, I still felt something then, but that changed later". By later, you mean when you were blowing me kisses? :|


Now that's just ridiculous, the part I underlined. That's like when you ask a child if they brushed their teeth and they say "YES" then think in their mind "Once last week..." Seriously. She should have just stuck with "I'm really sorry. I was caught off guard and didn't want to hurt your feelings." 



BioFury said:


> Yeah, I'd understand that - if she had been kind when breaking up with me. But she wasn't. She was stone cold, in full "we're over, you mean nothing, don't talk to me" mode.


People are weird. Maybe she had to turn you into some kind of monster in her mind in order to say "I'm not interested." She does sound pretty immature. I guess it just goes to show that it really takes time to get to know someone. It's so hard because you don't want to become jaded and stop trying, but you don't want to get your hopes up too fast with anyone...but how do you not when you know what you are looking for and they fit the bill plus seem to feel the same way about you.

I think I'd suggest in the future to not reveal your enthusiasm too fast, because sometimes that alone can be off putting. People have a tendency to undervalue that which seem to easy to acquire. And some people who seem too good to be true, don't seem so great after a few months in their company. It takes time to get to know someone.


----------



## BioFury

WorkingWife said:


> That makes sense. You're "there to murder them" seems a bit of an over-reaction! Though it did make me laugh.


Having a pistol on one hip, and a blade on the other mayyyy have contributed :grin2:



WorkingWife said:


> Now that's just ridiculous, the part I underlined. That's like when you ask a child if they brushed their teeth and they say "YES" then think in their mind "Once last week..." Seriously. She should have just stuck with "I'm really sorry. I was caught off guard and didn't want to hurt your feelings."


Yeah, there are many ways she could have handled this a lot better. But she didn't, I'm alone, and have no real idea why.



WorkingWife said:


> People are weird. Maybe she had to turn you into some kind of monster in her mind in order to say "I'm not interested." She does sound pretty immature. I guess it just goes to show that it really takes time to get to know someone. It's so hard because you don't want to become jaded and stop trying, but you don't want to get your hopes up too fast with anyone...but how do you not when you know what you are looking for and they fit the bill plus seem to feel the same way about you.
> 
> I think I'd suggest in the future to not reveal your enthusiasm too fast, because sometimes that alone can be off putting. People have a tendency to undervalue that which seem to easy to acquire. And some people who seem too good to be true, don't seem so great after a few months in their company. It takes time to get to know someone.


I guess I just view the whole "play hard to get" thing as being childish. If a woman isn't mature enough to know what she wants, and act accordingly without playing games, then I'd have to consider whether I even want her. But I see your point, and acknowledge it's utility. I'll have to think it over.


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> Having a pistol on one hip, and a blade on the other mayyyy have contributed :grin2:


heh heh. That wouldn't be too unusual where I live, but if I didn't know you and you seemed really stern or stand offish...



BioFury said:


> Yeah, there are many ways she could have handled this a lot better. But she didn't, I'm alone, and have no real idea why.


Yep. All you can do is watch for non verbal clues.



BioFury said:


> I guess I just view the whole "play hard to get" thing as being childish. If a woman isn't mature enough to know what she wants, and act accordingly without playing games, then I'd have to consider whether I even want her. But I see your point, and acknowledge it's utility. I'll have to think it over.


The thing is, I don't think it's a game people on the being pursued side *consciously* play. I think there is a real human psychology to it. There is a saying "Flee and they will follow. Follow and they will flee." There is something real that happens in the brain that tells you you desire someone when you have the opportunity to wonder ...Is he thinking about me? Is he interested? Does he prefer someone else? etc. Also, if someone is too available too fast they come across as a person who may not have their own thing going on in life and who may be clingy/needy. That's intimidating whey you are still figuring out how you feel about them.

With that said though... My current boyfriend really liked me, from the moment we met. On our first real date I remember him saying with clenched fists "All I'm saying is Pick me! Pick me!" and I remember thinking "Hmmm... what if I did...???" But I really didn't think we were right for each other long term or that I was ready for a serious relationship and I resisted getting serious for awhile, but his attentions were attractive to me, not off putting. He didn't seem desperate, he just seemed certain. He knew what he was looking for and I had all the things that were important to him.

He also has the wonderful quality of not being "spoilable" in that the nicer I am to him the more attracted he is to me, and the more he tries to make me happy. Whereas many men I've known want you SO BAD until they're with you and then the better you treat them it seems the more bored they become and they stop trying and start taking you for granted.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think finding someone who is a little bit "hard to get" more attractive is a game, but when it's the right person, you should be able to be honest about really liking them without putting them off. Regardless, it does take time to see all sides of someone and someone who seems perfect initially can turn out to be the wrong fit once you know more about them.


----------



## personofinterest

When I was in college, I was good friends with a guy I will call G. G and I had similar convictions, similar views, we loved the same music, we could talk about Bible passages 4 hours. G developed feelings for me. G was going to be a preacher. At the time, I really wanted to marry a preacher, and G checked all the boxes of what a good fit for me seemed to be. There were even times I thought I might feel a spark 4G. We went on a few dates. The more dates we went on, the less spark I felt, probably because he was 4" shorter than me. He was also rail thin. I was then at the time to, but I felt like a non feminine Amazon klutz next to him. I knew in my head this was shallow. So I tried to make myself have feelings for him because I felt like a badd person for not having feelings for him. But I just couldn't do it. I finally told him after 4 are 5 dates that I just didn't feel like we were a romantic fit. I felt horrible and like I had led him on. He was very nice about it, and we continued being friends, though less close than before period

I still feel a bit guilty about that period I am wondering if this girl didn't do a little bit of that herself. It is hard to find someone who is interesting and has common interests who also shares your faith in a serious manner. When someone checks those boxes, you feel as if you should be romantically intrested because the pool is so small to begin with. It isn't fair to the other person to lead them on, but it is almost like you are failing God if you don't go ahead and jump on this fine specimen of Christianity that is in your path. Even if you don't feel the spark.


----------



## BioFury

personofinterest said:


> When I was in college, I was good friends with a guy I will call G. G and I had similar convictions, similar views, we loved the same music, we could talk about Bible passages 4 hours. G developed feelings for me. G was going to be a preacher. At the time, I really wanted to marry a preacher, and G checked all the boxes of what a good fit for me seemed to be. There were even times I thought I might feel a spark 4G. We went on a few dates. The more dates we went on, the less spark I felt, probably because he was 4" shorter than me. He was also rail thin. I was then at the time to, but I felt like a non feminine Amazon klutz next to him. I knew in my head this was shallow. So I tried to make myself have feelings for him because I felt like a badd person for not having feelings for him. But I just couldn't do it. I finally told him after 4 are 5 dates that I just didn't feel like we were a romantic fit. I felt horrible and like I had led him on. He was very nice about it, and we continued being friends, though less close than before period
> 
> I still feel a bit guilty about that period I am wondering if this girl didn't do a little bit of that herself. It is hard to find someone who is interesting and has common interests who also shares your faith in a serious manner. When someone checks those boxes, you feel as if you should be romantically intrested because the pool is so small to begin with. It isn't fair to the other person to lead them on, but it is almost like you are failing God if you don't go ahead and jump on this fine specimen of Christianity that is in your path. Even if you don't feel the spark.


That would also make sense. In this case, it wouldn't have been height, since she made sure from the get-go that I was taller than her. But it could be I wasn't muscular, or quite thin, enough. If it was something like that, I wish she'd just tell me. I wouldn't be offended, and it would give me the opportunity to make minor modifications.

I guess I could be ugly... Hope not.


----------



## personofinterest

BioFury said:


> That would also make sense. In this case, it wouldn't have been height, since she made sure from the get-go that I was taller than her. But it could be I wasn't muscular, or quite thin, enough. If it was something like that, I wish she'd just tell me. I wouldn't be offended, and it would give me the opportunity to make minor modifications.
> 
> I guess I could be ugly... Hope not.


The point of my post wasn't about looks. It was to explain why sometimes a girl might "try" really hard to make a spark, and then it seems after that fact that she was intentionally lying. I felt I "should" feel something for G, but I didn't.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

personofinterest said:


> The more dates we went on, the less spark I felt, probably because he was 4" shorter than me. He was also rail thin. I was then at the time to, but I felt like a non feminine Amazon klutz next to him. I knew in my head this was shallow. So I tried to make myself have feelings for him because I felt like a badd person for not having feelings for him. But I just couldn't do it. I finally told him after 4 are 5 dates that I just didn't feel like we were a romantic fit. I felt horrible and like I had led him on. He was very nice about it, and we continued being friends, though less close than before period
> 
> I still feel a bit guilty about that period I am wondering if this girl didn't do a little bit of that herself. It is hard to find someone who is interesting and has common interests who also shares your faith in a serious manner. When someone checks those boxes, you feel as if you should be romantically intrested because the pool is so small to begin with. It isn't fair to the other person to lead them on, but it is almost like you are failing God if you don't go ahead and jump on this fine specimen of Christianity that is in your path. Even if you don't feel the spark.


I have done this same thing. There was a guy I met through Match a few years back who was seemingly a perfect match for me, really a great guy. I felt ZERO spark though. I did let him know after a few dates that I just wasnt feeling it, and of course he was awesome about it. We did hang out a few times after that, but I felt guilty because he did want things to progress, even if he was settling for being friends. I am hooping maybe to be friends in the future when he isnt involved with someone any more. But yeah, SO incredibly frustrating when you know things SHOULD be working and its just... not... there.


----------



## CraigBesuden

It sounds like this young lady didn’t know how to turn you down after just introducing you to her family. She didn’t feel right dating two men at the same time. So, she came up with an excuse. In reality she simply met a better prospect and switched horses. I wouldn’t worry too much about this.


----------



## BioFury

WorkingWife said:


> heh heh. That wouldn't be too unusual where I live, but if I didn't know you and you seemed really stern or stand offish...
> 
> Yep. All you can do is watch for non verbal clues.
> 
> The thing is, I don't think it's a game people on the being pursued side *consciously* play. I think there is a real human psychology to it. There is a saying "Flee and they will follow. Follow and they will flee." There is something real that happens in the brain that tells you you desire someone when you have the opportunity to wonder ...Is he thinking about me? Is he interested? Does he prefer someone else? etc. Also, if someone is too available too fast they come across as a person who may not have their own thing going on in life and who may be clingy/needy. That's intimidating whey you are still figuring out how you feel about them.
> 
> With that said though... My current boyfriend really liked me, from the moment we met. On our first real date I remember him saying with clenched fists "All I'm saying is Pick me! Pick me!" and I remember thinking "Hmmm... what if I did...???" But I really didn't think we were right for each other long term or that I was ready for a serious relationship and I resisted getting serious for awhile, but his attentions were attractive to me, not off putting. He didn't seem desperate, he just seemed certain. He knew what he was looking for and I had all the things that were important to him.
> 
> He also has the wonderful quality of not being "spoilable" in that the nicer I am to him the more attracted he is to me, and the more he tries to make me happy. Whereas many men I've known want you SO BAD until they're with you and then the better you treat them it seems the more bored they become and they stop trying and start taking you for granted.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think finding someone who is a little bit "hard to get" more attractive is a game, but when it's the right person, you should be able to be honest about really liking them without putting them off. Regardless, it does take time to see all sides of someone and someone who seems perfect initially can turn out to be the wrong fit once you know more about them.


So kinda just the phenomena that people want what they can't have, or don't have. So you're playing a waiting game almost. A persons attachment could increase proportionally to their anticipation, and you need it to reach a critical threshold before you let them "have" you.

Still seems like a game to me.

Besides, at this point, I probably am desperate. There's hardly anyone to find, and when I do find them, they don't like me, or there's something wrong with them.

It makes me wonder whether I should just find someone beneath me in life circumstances, so I can finally enjoy an amount of stability and comfort. I'm sick of this roller coaster ride.



personofinterest said:


> The point of my post wasn't about looks. It was to explain why sometimes a girl might "try" really hard to make a spark, and then it seems after that fact that she was intentionally lying. I felt I "should" feel something for G, but I didn't.


But, the reason you didn't feel a spark was because of his looks, or physical proportions, was it not?


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## 269370

BioFury said:


> That would also make sense. In this case, it wouldn't have been height, since she made sure from the get-go that I was taller than her. But it could be I wasn't muscular, or quite thin, enough. If it was something like that, I wish she'd just tell me. I wouldn't be offended, and it would give me the opportunity to make minor modifications.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I could be ugly... Hope not.



It’s not you. Some people just don’t feel the same things in sync.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## personofinterest

The height thing made me uncomfortable, but I think we were just too buddy buddy to be romantic, too.

I know men like to try to quantify relationships and make it a math problem. If I can make it 2+2=4 then I have a sure thing.

The truth it, attraction is intangible. If G had taken a pill to magically be taller, I don't know that would have flipped the attraction switch.

Here's something to remember: there are no guarantees in dating, even good people are fallible, and changing one's mind doesn't make them bad.

If there is one thing the incel/redpill/pua movement has done to men that is negative, it is fostering the either/or mentality that says "either she wants me OR there is something wrong with her."

Relationships are not that binary, and it isn't because women are bad.

It is what it is. I would love it if cheesecake had no carbs. But it does. So I can not eat it and stay healthy or eat it and gain weight. But railing against the carbs demanding that they disappear is not gonna work.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> The point of my post wasn't about looks. It was to explain why sometimes a girl might "try" really hard to make a spark, and then it seems after that fact that she was intentionally lying. I felt I "should" feel something for G, but I didn't.



This is interesting to me. Wouldn’t an exciting personality make up somewhat for the tallness/shortness or whatever physical imperfection? 
Using the stupid TAM metric: would you rather marry a 9 in looks but 6 in personality or the other way around?
I find this hard to answer myself honestly because it means admitting how shallow I am!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> The truth it, attraction is intangible. If G had taken a pill to magically be taller, I don't know that would have flipped the attraction switch.



Ok, that answers it (kind of).
I think the more important sex is for a woman, the more she will be prioritising looks and sexual chemistry.
I very much doubt a virgin will be prioritising looks at this point but who knows.
She is probably masturbating 3 times a day fantasising about Biofury but because her parents have drilled into her that she needs to be with a certain type, she will be going along with something else 



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## CraigBesuden

BTW, although I am an atheist, I come from a holiness pentecostal (and southern baptist) background. So I get the tiny pool of women thing. Good luck. You only need to find one.


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## Tasorundo

BioFury said:


> Besides, at this point, I probably am desperate. There's hardly anyone to find, and when I do find them, they don't like me, or there's something wrong with them.
> 
> It makes me wonder whether I should just find someone beneath me in life circumstances, so I can finally enjoy an amount of stability and comfort. I'm sick of this roller coaster ride.
> 
> 
> 
> But, the reason you didn't feel a spark was because of his looks, or physical proportions, was it not?


I am not sure why I am posting as you have yet to acknowledge anything I have said in this thread, but seriously man. This post sounds like you are one step away from being an incel.

Beneath you? Oh, that you could bestow your charity upon some lowly lass and lift her up to your station. She would ever be grateful and subservient to your every whim.

I have no idea what you are like in person, but the things you say here are super off-putting to women, I guarantee it.


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## 3Xnocharm

InMyPrime said:


> This is interesting to me. *Wouldn’t an exciting personality make up somewhat for the tallness/shortness or whatever physical imperfection?*
> Using the stupid TAM metric: would you rather marry a 9 in looks but 6 in personality or the other way around?
> I find this hard to answer myself honestly because it means admitting how shallow I am!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Attraction isnt only about looks. It also isnt only about personality. I had a boyfriend way back in the day that I didnt think of as very attractive when we met, but there was just SOMETHING about him that drew me in to him. We have NO CONTROL over who we feel that spark with. (that chemistry, that click, whatever you want to call it) I can find plenty of men that I find attractive, but only very few make me feel that spark. I guess its just your own essence finding connection with theirs?? I cant explain it, I dont think anyone can, honestly. 

But regarding the woman from Fury's OP, he needs to let her go. She isnt feeling it and chasing her down isnt going to make her.


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## ReformedHubby

Tasorundo said:


> I am not sure why I am posting as you have yet to acknowledge anything I have said in this thread, but seriously man. This post sounds like you are one step away from being an incel.
> 
> Beneath you? Oh, that you could bestow your charity upon some lowly lass and lift her up to your station. She would ever be grateful and subservient to your every whim.
> 
> I have no idea what you are like in person, but the things you say here are super off-putting to women, I guarantee it.


Well...I didn't want to say it in those exact words...but I can't disagree with your assessment. The OP's attitude is very incel like. The bitterness and entitlement really jumps out at you. As well as they don't understand me stuff. Individuality is fine, but when no one understands you. Its not because you are better than anyone or unique. It usually means you are doing something they find off putting.


----------



## 269370

I just want to caution; he did mention he was feeling ‘suicidal’ in a few of his posts and i don’t think it is the best time to point out his character flaws at this time nor does his current state paint an accurate picture of his personality.
Maybe let’s get him through the rut first.

Bio: what happened to you, happened to most men. You’ll get though this. There are plenty of other fish in the sea and there’s nothing wrong with you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ReformedHubby

InMyPrime said:


> I just want to caution; he did mention he was feeling ‘suicidal’ in a few of his posts and i don’t think it is the best time to point out his character flaws at this time nor does his current state paint an accurate picture of his personality.
> Maybe let’s get him through the rut first.
> 
> Bio: what happened to you, happened to most men. You’ll get though this. There are plenty of other fish in the sea and there’s nothing wrong with you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am not trying to make the guy feel bad. Of course I don't want him to kill himself, but his state is a very accurate depiction of his personality. He has to do some self inventory if he is seeking love. Doing the same thing and expecting different results isn't going to work. That's all I'm saying. He can't fix the problem if he feels there isn't one.


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## personofinterest

Being suicidal over a few dates not working out is way overboard. It speaks to either a deeper problem or a gift for drama and manipulation.


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## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Being suicidal over a few dates not working out is way overboard. It speaks to either a deeper problem or a gift for drama and manipulation.



I guess none of you have been virgins before?  
You guys are dark...


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## OnTheFly

I'm probably not supposed to do this, but I'm guessing a sect of Mormonism? 

The Good News of the Bible typically doesn't invoke misery and isolation.

But, I've been wrong before??


----------



## Prodigal

InMyPrime said:


> I guess none of you have been virgins before?
> You guys are dark...


Yes, I was a virgin during the Paleolithic Era; however, I fail to see the connection between OP's dilemma and his lack-of-sex status.

I think the OP needs to be more introspective, which I have suggested. I also suggested he may want to consider another religious sect, since he seems somewhat unhappy with his current one. He ignored that suggestion as well.

Perhaps OP just needs to mature more and consider broadening his overall life experience. Seriously.


----------



## Spicy

That’s my guess too @OnTheFly, and @Prodigal, I also agree it sounds like he is not satisfied with his faith. Perhaps it is just the loneliness and disappointment speaking right now.

Bio, do you definitely want to marry within your faith? I know it is easier to do so, that way you can worship and attend together. Are you part of a larger church, that is in other cities/locations? If so, perhaps go visit some of those places to meet more girls?

I think most people who have a limited dating pool based on religious or even personal standards have felt the way you feel. As mentioned earlier, it only takes one, and you haven’t met her yet. When you do, you will be thrilled you didn’t settle. She will have been worth the wait. 

Let your heart heal from this one, and then put it out there again. I was a virgin by choice when I got married, and it was wonderful to share that bond or being each other’s first and only. I completely understand your desire for this. Best wishes to you sweetheart!


----------



## Blondilocks

OnTheFly said:


> I'm probably not supposed to do this, but I'm guessing a sect of Mormonism?
> 
> The Good News of the Bible typically doesn't invoke misery and isolation.
> 
> But, I've been wrong before??


I don't think so because he doesn't want "6 kids".


----------



## personofinterest

I am thinking very conservative Christian, such as Independent Baptist or Pentecostal/church of God.

This is based on his stance regarding purity, how women should dress and conduct themselves, etc.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

You dont have to marry someone who shares your same faith. It can work out between two people who don't worship together. I've always felt your relationship with God is your own so it doesn't matter what someone else's relationship with Him is like. 

But of course, if it's important to you that you share the same faith, like it is for a ton of people, then keep looking. She's out there. She might even be feeling the same as you are right now. Bummed she hasn't found you yet. 

There are times when I'm in the bathroom and can't find the toothpaste. It's right there, I just can't see it. I leave the room, come back and sitting right there in plain sight is the toothpaste. Maybe she's right there under your nose and you just can't see her yet.


----------



## personofinterest

In conservative Christian churches, where The Bible is taken literally, it is actually considered wrong to be on equally yoked. That means a believer should not marry someone who isn't a believer.


----------



## OnTheFly

personofinterest said:


> In conservative Christian churches, where The Bible is taken literally, it is actually considered wrong to be on equally yoked. That means a believer should not marry someone who isn't a believer.


I know you meant ''unequally yoked'', just pointing it out for others to avoid confusion.

I agree. 

Marrying a virgin is NOT in the Bible.


----------



## In Absentia

OnTheFly said:


> Marrying a virgin is NOT in the Bible.


What about the Virgin Mary? I think the whole story points in one direction, which is not an erection... :laugh:


----------



## OnTheFly

In Absentia said:


> What about the Virgin Mary? I think the whole story points in one direction, which is not an erection... :laugh:


haha, but a virgin giving birth is definitely in the Bible.


----------



## azimuth

In Christianity you aren’t required to marry a virgin. Even the most conservative denominations believe in God’s forgiveness. Chastity is for our protection. Virginity itself doesn’t carry the value. Women are not more worthy of love and marriage if they’re virgins.


----------



## WorkingWife

personofinterest said:


> Being suicidal over a few dates not working out is way overboard. It speaks to either a deeper problem or a gift for drama and manipulation.


Yeah, but if you read his post closely that's not what he was feeling suicidal over. I believe he said he was felt hopeless over the fact that he really feels his faith is right for him and he doesn't want to quit it, he strongly feels it's right for him. HOWEVER, he can also clearly see how it creates this dynamic, because he needs to find someone of the same faith and that really narrows down the dating pool. So it's like his religion is making him unhappy, but he believes it is right for him.

If he has a character flaw, maybe it's stubbornness...


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> That would also make sense. In this case, it wouldn't have been height, since she made sure from the get-go that I was taller than her. But it could be I wasn't muscular, or quite thin, enough. If it was something like that, I wish she'd just tell me. I wouldn't be offended, and it would give me the opportunity to make minor modifications.
> 
> I guess I could be ugly... Hope not.


Sometimes it's nothing physical but also nothing the person can do anything about. Just a certain chemistry that isn't there for you. You try to keep giving it a chance because your logical brain tell you this should be ideal, but the spark just isn't there.

That of course does not explain why she was so Jeckyl and Hyde and ultimately so cold and, it seems, angry. What could explain that is if she is a "people pleaser" and couldn't get herself to be straight forward with you, and she is immature and lacks the inter-personal skills to handle it better so she flipped her switch to "hostile mode" to get the job done. Not nice and not fair to you, but it could explain it.


----------



## WorkingWife

BioFury said:


> So kinda just the phenomena that people want what they can't have, or don't have. So you're playing a waiting game almost. A persons attachment could increase proportionally to their anticipation, and you need it to reach a critical threshold before you let them "have" you.


Not exactly. That is definitely a real thing. Wanting what you can't have. But if that's the only reason, once you have it, you want something (someone) else that you can't have. So you don't want that person anyhow. What I'm talking about is a little deeper -- If someone wants me too much, too fast (for me) I don't trust the emotion to be enduring. Frankly, I don't trust their mental stability. Do I really want a man who would be "lost" with out me? Do I really want a relationship where I would be "lost" without this person? 

A true connection takes time and shared experiences. People reveal themselves slowly. How does this person behave when they are frustrated? Disappointed? How do they handle conflict? How do they treat others? Are they generally helpful or annoyed by those in need? Optimistic or pessimistic? Do we laugh at the same things? Are they reliable? Steady or mercurial? Are our energy levels well matched? 

These are the things that really matter, and it takes time to see them. So if someone instantly wants to start talking long term, not only do I not know these things about them, but they don't know them about me -- so it sets off alarm bells if they are too interested too fast. I want someone who truly loves me, and I want to do all I can to love them and make them feel good in return. But I still want someone who is emotionally stable and would be okay without me.

Now with that said, it's fine, and good, to be open that long term is your goal. If I want marriage I don't want to waste time dating men who just want to have "fun." It's really hard to define, because its subtle and probably something you CAN'T fake like playing a game, but it's just attractive when you feel someone likes you but doesn't NEED you, when they have their own life and are a whole person without you. And it's a turn off when someone wants you too much too soon. It's just makes you leery... 



BioFury said:


> Still seems like a game to me.


Well some people do play it like a game.
Him: I'll wait x days to contact her again.
Her: I'll pretend I'm not available even though I'd love to see him right now...

But I think people usually "sense" through that. There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm having best time with you, how soon can I see you again?" There's just something on a deeper level where if you become immediately devoted and attached, people are repelled because it sets off alarm bells in their subconscious that it's not possibly genuine. Or they don't feel the same way YET so they panic and want to put distance between themselves and you. 




BioFury said:


> Besides, at this point, I probably am desperate. There's hardly anyone to find, and when I do find them, they don't like me, or there's something wrong with them.
> 
> *It makes me wonder whether I should just find someone beneath me in life circumstances, so I can finally enjoy an amount of stability and comfort.* I'm sick of this roller coaster ride.


*What do you mean by beneath you in life circumstances? Can you elaborate? I'm assuming someone who "needs" you for some reason? Are we talking financial? Class? Virginity? religious beliefs?
*



BioFury said:


> But, the reason you didn't feel a spark was because of his looks, or physical proportions, was it not?


No, that's not it at all. Looks and physical proportions definitely play into chemistry, but they're not as important as many other things. And they're generally not as important to women as to men. But there are many other things that create chemistry, it's more a personality thing of how we connect. But it's hard to define because I know guys I REALLY like and could talk to for HOURS and are perfectly good looking, but they simply do not flip my switch. I think it's about confidence, charisma, playfulness, manliness... Very hard to define. The good news is that different women have very different tastes in men. I would never even consider most of the men my best friend has been with, and she would probably never consider the one's I've been attracted to...

With that said there are some physical things that are non-starters for me. I would have trouble being with a guy shorter than me. But I know plenty of women who don't. A bit of a tummy is fine, but obese is definitely a turn off. Long hair, tattoos, piercings - all turn offs to me but those speak to personality and are choices. I definitely find a certain look appealing - but even that is part from personality. I remember watching a TV show where there was this Dr. with red hair and his face was just nothing special. I would consider him less than average looking. But his character's personality was so appealing to me that I found him incredibly sexy and would have definitely been attracted to that character IRL.

I do suspect your biggest obstacle is the tiny pond you are fishing in. The next problem may be something in you and how you're coming across, but that again may be due to the fact that you know you have so few to choose from that it creates an off-putting energy from you that might not be there otherwise.


----------



## personofinterest

OnTheFly said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> In conservative Christian churches, where The Bible is taken literally, it is actually considered wrong to be on equally yoked. That means a believer should not marry someone who isn't a believer.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you meant ''unequally yoked'', just pointing it out for others to avoid confusion.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> Marrying a virgin is NOT in the Bible.
Click to expand...

I never said it was. I was responding to the comment about bio looking outside his fsith.


----------



## OnTheFly

personofinterest said:


> I never said it was. I was responding to the comment about bio looking outside his fsith.


Even agreeing with you is hard.


----------



## personofinterest

OnTheFly said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I never said it was. I was responding to the comment about bio looking outside his fsith.
> 
> 
> 
> Even agreeing with you is hard.
Click to expand...

Lol sorry 

I'm in hyperdrive today


----------



## CraigBesuden

Bio is saying that he’s tempted to date down, to date somebody who is not in his league (a lower league) just to get married and get it over with. It could refer to inferior looks, education, job, etc.

Is it controversial to say that there are “leagues” on TAM? That a Hollywood actress is out of his league?


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

personofinterest said:


> In conservative Christian churches, where The Bible is taken literally, it is actually considered wrong to be on equally yoked. That means a believer should not marry someone who isn't a believer.


I know. Maybe he can look at it as missionary work? Spread the word and find a girl? Preferably one who adopts his beliefs as her own? 2 birds?


----------



## 269370

WorkingWife said:


> Not exactly. That is definitely a real thing. Wanting what you can't have. But if that's the only reason, once you have it, you want something (someone) else that you can't have. So you don't want that person anyhow. What I'm talking about is a little deeper -- If someone wants me too much, too fast (for me) I don't trust the emotion to be enduring. Frankly, I don't trust their mental stability. Do I really want a man who would be "lost" with out me? Do I really want a relationship where I would be "lost" without this person?
> 
> 
> 
> A true connection takes time and shared experiences. People reveal themselves slowly. How does this person behave when they are frustrated? Disappointed? How do they handle conflict? How do they treat others? Are they generally helpful or annoyed by those in need? Optimistic or pessimistic? Do we laugh at the same things? Are they reliable? Steady or mercurial? Are our energy levels well matched?
> 
> 
> 
> These are the things that really matter, and it takes time to see them. So if someone instantly wants to start talking long term, not only do I not know these things about them, but they don't know them about me -- so it sets off alarm bells if they are too interested too fast. I want someone who truly loves me, and I want to do all I can to love them and make them feel good in return. But I still want someone who is emotionally stable and would be okay without me.
> 
> 
> 
> Now with that said, it's fine, and good, to be open that long term is your goal. If I want marriage I don't want to waste time dating men who just want to have "fun." It's really hard to define, because its subtle and probably something you CAN'T fake like playing a game, but it's just attractive when you feel someone likes you but doesn't NEED you, when they have their own life and are a whole person without you. And it's a turn off when someone wants you too much too soon. It's just makes you leery...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well some people do play it like a game.
> 
> Him: I'll wait x days to contact her again.
> 
> Her: I'll pretend I'm not available even though I'd love to see him right now...
> 
> 
> 
> But I think people usually "sense" through that. There's nothing wrong with saying "I'm having best time with you, how soon can I see you again?" There's just something on a deeper level where if you become immediately devoted and attached, people are repelled because it sets off alarm bells in their subconscious that it's not possibly genuine. Or they don't feel the same way YET so they panic and want to put distance between themselves and you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *What do you mean by beneath you in life circumstances? Can you elaborate? I'm assuming someone who "needs" you for some reason? Are we talking financial? Class? Virginity? religious beliefs?
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's not it at all. Looks and physical proportions definitely play into chemistry, but they're not as important as many other things. And they're generally not as important to women as to men. But there are many other things that create chemistry, it's more a personality thing of how we connect. But it's hard to define because I know guys I REALLY like and could talk to for HOURS and are perfectly good looking, but they simply do not flip my switch. I think it's about confidence, charisma, playfulness, manliness... Very hard to define. The good news is that different women have very different tastes in men. I would never even consider most of the men my best friend has been with, and she would probably never consider the one's I've been attracted to...
> 
> 
> 
> With that said there are some physical things that are non-starters for me. I would have trouble being with a guy shorter than me. But I know plenty of women who don't. A bit of a tummy is fine, but obese is definitely a turn off. Long hair, tattoos, piercings - all turn offs to me but those speak to personality and are choices. I definitely find a certain look appealing - but even that is part from personality. I remember watching a TV show where there was this Dr. with red hair and his face was just nothing special. I would consider him less than average looking. But his character's personality was so appealing to me that I found him incredibly sexy and would have definitely been attracted to that character IRL.



I could have ‘mansplained’ this all myself in the same words I swear...
Except that I write this stuff from a theoretical perspective (not being a woman), but you actually understand it. I wish I could understand properly how a woman can on the one hand think that a guy is below average looking yet the personality makes him ‘incredibly sexy’? 

Wouldn’t one cancel the other out? I.e. she wouldn’t actually think that he was below average looking or she would not find him sexy? How does this actually work?

In order to want to have sex with a woman I have to find her ‘incredibly sexy’ but also be attracted to her personality. One wouldn’t work without the other for me.

Also: what is it about shorter men (or men that are shorter than the woman) that is off putting? I’m curious. People like Tom Cruise etc still seem to be attractive to women, no?

I’m quite tall but I notice men that are shorter than me are not always as friendly as the tall ones...Maybe just a coincidence.



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----------



## personofinterest

TheDudeLebowski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> In conservative Christian churches, where The Bible is taken literally, it is actually considered wrong to be on equally yoked. That means a believer should not marry someone who isn't a believer.
> 
> 
> 
> I know. Maybe he can look at it as missionary work? Spread the word and find a girl? Preferably one who adopts his beliefs as her own? 2 birds?
Click to expand...

Yeah......missionary dating is frowned upon and rarely works.

I grew up in the type of church Bio likely attends.


----------



## 269370

personofinterest said:


> Yeah......missionary dating is frowned upon and rarely works.
> 
> I grew up in the type of church Bio likely attends.



How does missionary work differ from doggy? And how can ‘spreading’ be implemented most effectively?

(I will save you the dictation effort: I know I am a demented imbecile, period )


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## lucy999

@BioFury I had no idea you were so young (mid 20s did you say?)

Are you feeling a sense of urgency because as you age, the pool of virgins gets smaller? 

I'll give you something to chew on:

My dad was raised southern Baptist in Texas, my mom a strict Catholic in Connecticut. They married and soon after, Mom was baptized as a Mormon. Dad was never religious. He begrudgingly got baptized as a Mormon but never followed the tenets of the religion. He did it to make Mom happy. 

Mom and Dad had similar political beliefs, moral compasses, and family goals. They were happily married until Dad died in his early 60s.

I'm telling you this to illustrate that partners can be happy and have a fruitful life without the commonality of religion. 

I know you want to find a virgin woman within your religion. I respect that. But virgin women are usually young and immature, as you've unfortunately experienced. Are you able to be more flexible and find a non virgin or date out of your religion? Seems like you've (or your religion?) painted yourself in a corner.


----------



## Personal

Just to end the speculation, Bio is a Messianic Jew.


----------



## WorkingWife

InMyPrime said:


> I could have ‘mansplained’ this all myself in the same words I swear...
> Except that I write this stuff from a theoretical perspective (not being a woman), but you actually understand it. I wish I could understand properly how a woman can on the one hand think that a guy is below average looking yet the personality makes him ‘incredibly sexy’?
> 
> Wouldn’t one cancel the other out? I.e. she wouldn’t actually think that he was below average looking or she would not find him sexy? How does this actually work?
> 
> In order to want to have sex with a woman I have to find her ‘incredibly sexy’ but also be attracted to her personality. One wouldn’t work without the other for me.


Looks are not a *non*-factor. But women are just wired differently. Men are very visual, so the physical beauty is a bigger component about what is attractive to them. Women are more often drawn to someone who can protect them and care for them -- hence taller and stronger, but also career power, reliable, financial security, etc. Those things factor in more than "looks." A guys face can look like pretty much anything, IMO, because once you know someone you get used to how they look anyhow. It's more how he carries himself, confidence without arrogance, competence, adventuress, sense of humor, etc. that make him "sexy" or not.




InMyPrime said:


> Also: what is it about shorter men (or men that are shorter than the woman) that is off putting? I’m curious. People like Tom Cruise etc still seem to be attractive to women, no?
> 
> I’m quite tall but I notice men that are shorter than me are not always as friendly as the tall ones...Maybe just a coincidence.


Well Tom Cruise is very handsome in the face and in good shape. But for the masses, you have no real idea how tall or short an actor or actress is. Apparently a lot of movie star men are not very tall. 

As for why I would prefer a taller guy, I want the man to be larger than me. On a gut level it feels safer, stronger, more able to protect me.

With that said, my current BF is 5'9". Most of the men I've dated were over 6' and I have a lot of exceptionally tall female friends too. So at first he seemed short to me. (Even though that's actually average height). The first couple times I hugged him he felt small. But now that we're together and he's the size I'm used to, he feels perfect. I'm only 5'4, so if a guy was shorter than me, he'd be pretty small. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I would not be attracted to that just by looking at it.

Interesting about taller guys being friendlier. It could be your imagination but it's possible that some shorter guys resent taller guys.


----------



## AVR1962

BioFury said:


> That would also make sense. In this case, it wouldn't have been height, since she made sure from the get-go that I was taller than her. But it could be I wasn't muscular, or quite thin, enough. If it was something like that, I wish she'd just tell me. I wouldn't be offended, and it would give me the opportunity to make minor modifications.
> 
> I guess I could be ugly... Hope not.


I not sure it is a matter of your appearance.....or not having enough muscles or being thin enough. In this day and age it might have been she was multi dating and found someone else. Perhaps though you might consider saving deep thought processing subjects until you get to know one another better. I know for me (I am female), first impression is visual in the sense that I have to be attracted to him in some fashion. As I sit there with a first date I ask myself if I can see us kissing and if I cannot allow this man to kiss me I know I cannot go beyond the first date. I listen as he describes his life, his career, his interests and tells me about his family and ex. If we cannot connect at this point, meaning I am turned off by what he tells me, I won't see him again. If he is all about sports to a point that he says you won't see him at all during football season, or all he can talk about is his daughter (who seemingly replaced his wife in my thoughts), or he runs down and blames his ex and still has hard feelings for her that is enough for me.


----------



## Livvie

A side note for the shorter men: tall men are not necessarily stronger or better able to protect.

Some tall men are lean and lanky and not necessarily stronger. 

Some short men are very strong.

I like shorter men.

I've had relationships with tall and short men.

The man who felt the best in my arms, ever, was a shorter, strong, compact man. A bundle of strength and energy. He could almost wrap all of himself around me because he was only inches taller than me instead of a foot or more taller, like others.


----------



## BioFury

Update.

So, I've been in contact with her mother for the last couple weeks. Her mom encouraged me to not lose hope, and said that she was "working on things" behind the scenes to try and repair the breach. This obviously gave me hope, but tortured me inside at the same time. Not knowing what was going on, or what would happen. So a couple days ago, I wrote her mom and said I wasn't sure what I should do about her birthday under current conditions, to which her mom responded and said she'd mention something about it to her daughter and feel things out for me.

That brings us to today. The girl writes me, and extends good birthday wishes, since both of our birthdays are coming up. She says she's been thinking about me, which I respond with "Thinking about me?", which leads into a conversation where she apologizes for the way she acted. She then communicates that she still sees potential between us, but that I hadn't talked to her dad much the day I was there, and he had said that he "couldn't see her with me" after I left.

She says that she's been thinking about me all week, and asks if it's ok that she's talking to me - given how she had treated me. I said it was forgiven, and that I had been hoping she'd talk to me for all of the past month. To which she responded with a downcast emoji, and that she'd thought I'd persist when she said she wasn't going to talk any more, and keep texting her.

After this, she kinda helps me brainstorm ways to get in on her dad's good side. After which I'm really getting the impression that her dad caused the whole thing, and that she was always really into me. She then shares that she's still not sure God wants her and I to be together, so she wants to pray about it. I say I understand, and I think I'm beginning to see the "recovery" that I had hardly dared to hope for, so I tell her how I feel, and that if she feels the same way, I'll fight tooth and nail for her and our relationship. To which she responds "I love that".

She then goes to eat dinner with her family. And when she comes back, she's all pensive and thoughtful. So after a bit, she tells me that she "just doesn't see herself with me" (which, oddly enough, is the phrase her dad used the day I was there), bids me goodnight, and that I'm unlikely to hear from her tomorrow.

So yeah. Feel like I've been hit by a train.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Man. Wow. Wish it was a better ending. Dang it.


----------



## BioFury

Faithful Wife said:


> Man. Wow. Wish it was a better ending. Dang it.


Oh it's not over yet. There'll be more signal mixing after this short break.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

BioFury said:


> Oh it's not over yet. There'll be more signal mixing after this short break.


Not trying to be negative Nancy, but it seems signal mixing is par for the course with this girl. You sure this is what you want? Seems she has very little sense of self. You stick with someone who's life decisions are not their own half the time, you aren't really able to get a good sense of them are you? 

Of course, you two might be placed together for a reason. To learn to grow in self while growing together simultaneously. You're just going to face battles that many will question, so when asking for any advice, get ready to feel those words. Try not to get to defensive about it. Concern is at the heart of it. Mixed with a little judgement too. If your heart and your head are aligned and you believe she's the one to ride this journey with, then full steam ahead. Every couple has battles. Small ones to major ones. 

My only caution is to make sure you know HER words and not other's words spoken by her. Seems difficult from here (obviously) to know her judging by these mixed signals you keep getting. Some of it may be her own words when you think it's her friends or father's or whomever's words. If you are certain you know when she's speaking on her own behalf vs when she's speaking on another's behalf and you are good, by all means keep at it. Maybe you can show her how to be confident in her own skin. Bring her out into the sun and watch her bloom into the one you know is in there.


----------



## BioFury

TheDudeLebowski said:


> Not trying to be negative Nancy, but it seems signal mixing is par for the course with this girl. You sure this is what you want? Seems she has very little sense of self. You stick with someone who's life decisions are not their own half the time, you aren't really able to get a good sense of them are you?
> 
> Of course, you two might be placed together for a reason. To learn to grow in self while growing together simultaneously. You're just going to face battles that many will question, so when asking for any advice, get ready to feel those words. Try not to get to defensive about it. Concern is at the heart of it. Mixed with a little judgement too. If your heart and your head are aligned and you believe she's the one to ride this journey with, then full steam ahead. Every couple has battles. Small ones to major ones.
> 
> My only caution is to make sure you know HER words and not other's words spoken by her. Seems difficult from here (obviously) to know her judging by these mixed signals you keep getting. Some of it may be her own words when you think it's her friends or father's or whomever's words. If you are certain you know when she's speaking on her own behalf vs when she's speaking on another's behalf and you are good, by all means keep at it. Maybe you can show her how to be confident in her own skin. Bring her out into the sun and watch her bloom into the one you know is in there.


I have no idea what I'm going to do at this point. It's clear (or is it) that she wants me to persist. I mean, she said she had expected me to keep texting her after she said "No more" for God's sake.

I'm not interested in playing cat and mouse games. My last gf did that, and it was just me chasing her around all the time, with her letting me "catch" her for a few weeks at a time to keep me hooked. Then she'd blow up in my face again, at which point I'd have to repair everything once more.

But, at the same time, I did just say I would fight for her. Though I did specify "if you feel the same way". Which she's now saying she doesn't. Only she's telling me this after telling me she does, after telling me she didn't a month ago, which she said after telling me she did.

So who the hell knows.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Maybe she’s on the rocks with the other suitor, so she’s now leaning a bit back in your direction? You might be Plan B or Plan C.


----------



## lucy999

:frown2:

Does your religion mandate the parents' acceptance of their daughter's suitor? 

Are you willing to accept her weak boundaries with her parents and her not having a voice of her own? I have a feeling that would be a running theme of your relationship if it were to become one.


----------



## personofinterest

I feel sorry for this girl....

Parents and an almost stalker guy CONSPIRING to make her date him.

If you cannot see how unhealthy this is, I suggest serious therapy.


----------



## OnTheFly

It seems the Father is the only normal one.

I can hear the soft notes from the fiddler on the roof.


----------



## Blondilocks

How do people of your faith handle extended family relations? Are you expected to be all one big happy family or are you allowed to be a distinct couple?

As it stands, this girl is too immature to be married. Stop courting her mother - you won't be marrying the mom. Do you want her parents involved in every facet of your marriage? 

If I were you, I'd tell Miss Princess to give you a call when she grows the hell up.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

BioFury said:


> Oh it's not over yet. There'll be more signal mixing after this short break.


Not if YOU dont allow it. Can you not see how ridiculous this whole thing is?? Block this chick from every avenue of contact and get on with your life.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Are there truly so few women available in your faith that you need to play these games? This sounds like junior high school antics.


----------



## Blondilocks

CraigBesuden said:


> Are there truly so few women available in your faith that you need to play these games? This sounds like junior high school antics.


Geographically, there is probably a limited selection. I would think it would be much easier to expand choice to include Christian women. I don't believe Christian women would find his faith objectionable.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

BioFury said:


> I'm not interested in playing cat and mouse games. My last gf did that, and it was just me chasing her around all the time, with her letting me "catch" her for a few weeks at a time to keep me hooked. Then she'd blow up in my face again, at which point I'd have to repair everything once more.


Can you kind of see yourself falling back into this same pattern? Patterns and loops are common with everyone. Eventually they become detrimental, or you start to actively watch out for them and they become a hard boundary that is on the front of your mind pretty much always or else you fall back into them again. 

Humans are too nuanced for a one size fits all type advice. Relationship books, things like that. They feel like nonsense to me because of this. Unless you've identified an issue you want to actively change, reading these books could cause one to start projecting and creating issues that might not really be there. Similar to a cheater rewriting history to fit some narrative. So I don't like to recommend them unless it is specific to that couple or individual's situation. Love languages and all that, seems like horse ****. Probably works for some, its nonsense to me and my relationship. 

With that said, if you recognize a pattern, I would advise to read up on this type of thing and take a good hard look at yourself and past relationships. How this is different if at all. The nature of forums like this one is snap judgements based on tiny snippets of information that is pretty much always one sided. Rarely do you have a couple on the same relationship forum. Plus we all hold back a bit. 

Kind of rambling basically just to say you really need to search yourself and make your decision. I'm not convinced you are 100% committed to the idea of chasing, and I think you might possibly be ignoring your better instincts a little.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

@BioFury any updates? 

Just wanted to ask another question. Lets say you had a few more prospects lined up so to speak. Would you continue to chase this woman, or would you have moved on already?


----------



## AVR1962

Livvie said:


> A side note for the shorter men: tall men are not necessarily stronger or better able to protect.
> 
> Some tall men are lean and lanky and not necessarily stronger.
> 
> Some short men are very strong.
> 
> I like shorter men.
> 
> I've had relationships with tall and short men.
> 
> The man who felt the best in my arms, ever, was a shorter, strong, compact man. A bundle of strength and energy. He could almost wrap all of himself around me because he was only inches taller than me instead of a foot or more taller, like others.


Livvie, to add to what you said, I agree and hopefully this is good to know for the shorter gentlemen. I actually read an article that indicated that short men have more sex. Of course that might have been written by a short man but I thought it was an interesting tidbit of info! My first husband was just a pinch taller than me and we could wear the same shoes. I had no problems with it. Recently I met a man who was supposed to be 5'5" according to his bio. I am 5'4" and we were eye to eye. He told me he weighed less than 150 so I asked if that mean he was about 145, that is my weight! This guy was quite the little tiger. Instead of me crawling on his lap during a make-out session which actually I don't do anyway, he crawled on my lap. That was kind of weird!


----------



## AVR1962

BioFury said:


> I have no idea what I'm going to do at this point. It's clear (or is it) that she wants me to persist. I mean, she said she had expected me to keep texting her after she said "No more" for God's sake.
> 
> I'm not interested in playing cat and mouse games. My last gf did that, and it was just me chasing her around all the time, with her letting me "catch" her for a few weeks at a time to keep me hooked. Then she'd blow up in my face again, at which point I'd have to repair everything once more.
> 
> But, at the same time, I did just say I would fight for her. Though I did specify "if you feel the same way". Which she's now saying she doesn't. Only she's telling me this after telling me she does, after telling me she didn't a month ago, which she said after telling me she did.
> 
> So who the hell knows.


When a person is sending mixed signals I fully believe it is because they are not sure and it sounds to me that she is under some influence from her family. I don't know how old you and she are but to me there seems to be too much involvement with her parents on your part and on hers. No matter what the age, if she feels she has to please a family member and deny her heart she will send these signals. I am not sure this is worth chasing.


----------



## personofinterest

I cannot imagine being desperate enough to date someone knowing they are only with me because their mommy made them date me.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

personofinterest said:


> I cannot imagine being desperate enough to date someone knowing they are only with me because their mommy made them date me.


You've never met my mom, or me. Together we would sweep you off your feet ... and place you in the back of an unmarked, windowless van.


----------



## BioFury

TheDudeLebowski said:


> @BioFury any updates?
> 
> Just wanted to ask another question. Lets say you had a few more prospects lined up so to speak. Would you continue to chase this woman, or would you have moved on already?


Yes, I'm pretty certain she really likes me at this point, she's just conflicted about some belief differences, and her dad is perhaps whispering in her ear.

She wrote me the day after the whole "I don't see myself with you", and it appears to have been a very incomplete statement. The sentiment it appears she was trying to convey, was that she couldn't see herself with me if the issues already brought up were not worked out (doctrinal differences, her dad, etc). Not that she simply wasn't interested, or didn't like me.

There are other prospects, but I'm not pursuing them, because I like this chick. I think there's something real here, and God willing, things will work out.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski

BioFury said:


> Yes, I'm pretty certain she really likes me at this point, she's just conflicted about some belief differences, and her dad is perhaps whispering in her ear.
> 
> She wrote me the day after the whole "I don't see myself with you", and it appears to have been a very incomplete statement. The sentiment it appears she was trying to convey, was that she couldn't see herself with me if the issues already brought up were not worked out (doctrinal differences, her dad, etc). Not that she simply wasn't interested, or didn't like me.
> 
> There are other prospects, but I'm not pursuing them, because I like this chick. I think there's something real here, and God willing, things will work out.



Good to hear. By all means then, go forth. Might I suggest moving slower than perhaps you two would like maybe, if she accepts your pursuit. 


I'll say this, everyone would have told my wife to stay away from me. Yet here we are nearly 20 years later. Very happy together. 

"Ashes to ashes, funk to funky
We know Major Tom's a junkie
Strung out in heaven's high
Hitting an all-time low

My mother said, to get things done
You'd better not mess with Major Tom"

I would be Major Tom in these lyrics.


----------



## Betrayedone

This reeks of hot mess and desperation.......


----------



## personofinterest

TheDudeLebowski said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot imagine being desperate enough to date someone knowing they are only with me because their mommy made them date me.
> 
> 
> 
> You've never met my mom, or me. Together we would sweep you off your feet ... and place you in the back of an unmarked, windowless van.
Click to expand...

Honestly, though you joke, this thread is starting to reek of a Criminal Minds episode.


----------



## lovelygirl

BioFury said:


> I have no idea what I'm going to do at this point. It's clear (or is it) that she wants me to persist. I mean, she said she had expected me to keep texting her after she said "No more" for God's sake.
> 
> I'm not interested in playing cat and mouse games.


I was just about to say that she put you on a test to see how much you'd insist.... until I read this post to confirm it.
It's a woman's test to see how much you care after she tells you to "stop", though she's not really meaning it.

Yeah, it might be a bit immature ..... as on one hand, you have to respect her decision, but on the other, this might be perceived as a lack of further interest from you. I haven't read the other posts yet, but on the first page of this thread, I got the feeling she was sort of provoking you to see how far you'd go.


----------



## turnera

BioFury said:


> Yes, I'm pretty certain she really likes me at this point, she's just conflicted about some belief differences, and her dad is perhaps whispering in her ear.
> 
> She wrote me the day after the whole "I don't see myself with you", and it appears to have been a very incomplete statement. The sentiment it appears she was trying to convey, was that she couldn't see herself with me if the issues already brought up were not worked out (doctrinal differences, her dad, etc). Not that she simply wasn't interested, or didn't like me.
> 
> There are other prospects, but I'm not pursuing them, because I like this chick. I think there's something real here, and God willing, things will work out.


Gotta say, it scares me to talk about a grown woman who won't choose a guy she likes because of her dad.


----------



## personofinterest

To be honest, based own quite a few things, I'm not certain she does like him. I'm thinking maybe the dad can sense some things that are legitimate concerns.


----------



## BioFury

turnera said:


> Gotta say, it scares me to talk about a grown woman who won't choose a guy she likes because of her dad.


Well, since then she told me that she doesn't want to be with me. Which is fine, though I would have appreciated it if she had told me that, and not bothered with the flirting, verbally encouraging me to pursue her, and all that.

Her dad then sent an unprompted "Don't talk to my daughter any more" text message. Which, well... whatever. He didn't need to tell me twice.



personofinterest said:


> To be honest, based own quite a few things, I'm not certain she does like him. I'm thinking maybe the dad can sense some things that are legitimate concerns.


I certainly have problems, but nothing that should give a father pause. I'm caring, intelligent, and am blessed with a good career. I'm a good person who has my crud together, in a nut shell.

But it doesn't really matter at this point. I'm no longer talking to her.


----------



## Tilted 1

Bio, why did you change your first post? Is there reasoning for this. I just find it odd.


----------



## turnera

BioFury said:


> Well, since then she told me that she doesn't want to be with me. Which is fine, though I would have appreciated it if she had told me that, and not bothered with the flirting, verbally encouraging me to pursue her, and all that.
> 
> Her dad then sent an unprompted "Don't talk to my daughter any more" text message. Which, well... whatever. He didn't need to tell me twice.


Just saying it for your own education, for the future. That should have been a big-ass flashing red neon sign in your face.


----------



## BioFury

So, in the next episode of this ridiculous saga, the girl texted me again two nights ago. It was late, I was up watching a movie, so I wrote her back. The condensed version is she said she wanted me, said she was sorry, and asked for another chance. A chance to repair all the damage she's done. She was being as sweet as a jolly rancher, seemed remorseful, and doing the adorable "I need you" stuff that women do, and talked to me until 4 AM. She also mentioned that when she said she didn't want me the last time, that it was really difficult for her to say that. But that she needed to pray about us first, etc. Basically, it was a load of bollocks.

So the next morning rolls around, and she's being cute and cuddly. She goes to work, and later has a conversation with her dad. After which, she relays to me that her dad only wants us to be friends. No flirting, no romance, etc., take things slow, and progress to a dating relationship later - possibly. In my head, I'm thinking "cutting the ears off a mule doesn't make it a horse" - or otherwise said, we're already emotionally invested, sticking the label "friends" on it isn't going to change the nature of our relationship. So I voiced respectfully that I had doubts about this. To which she basically responded with "if you don't like it we can stop talking". At which point I was like "Woah". So doing my best to ignore her cold and inconsiderate treatment of me, I say I'll give it a shot (I was sleep deprived, wasn't thinking very clearly).

Only from that moment forward, she's treating me really different. She's distant, and ignored me much of the day. So that night, I write her and tell her that I'm having a difficult time with what's going on, that the way she's treated me today was hurtful, and that I'd like to talk about it. To which she responded that she was tired, and wanted to go to sleep. I was stung once gain by her complete disregard for my feelings, but said goodnight, hoping that we could have a more productive conversation the next day when we were both well-rested.

So I say good morning, and she writes and tells me that my insinuation that her dad was influencing her against me (I merely said that her behavior changed after their conversation, I didn't say anything more, or against her dad) made her very angry. I responded that I hadn't been speaking against her dad, but merely referencing their conversation as the point as which her behavior shifted. That I just wanted to talk about what's happening. To which, she said I wanted to move too fast, and that she's not interested in me any more.

To which I said "ok".

I'd laugh if it wasn't so heart-wrenching. What the hell is wrong with her?


----------



## lovelygirl

Why do I think she's still **** testing you....and playing you back&forth?? 

I'm a girl myself, so It's easy to read between her lines. 

My cold advice would be to ignore her once and for all.

She's way immature. Once you leave, she'll run back to you.


----------



## BioFury

lovelygirl said:


> *Why do I think she's still **** testing you....and playing you back&forth?? *
> 
> I'm a girl myself, so It's easy to read between her lines.
> 
> My cold advice would be to ignore her once and for all.
> 
> She's way immature. Once you leave, she'll run back to you.


For what purpose? If I get sick of her garbage, and tell her to piss off, thus inflaming her "he's such a strong he-man" desire for me, it will be too late for her. 

If I give in, and give another chance, she'll think me weak. So what the hell is the point?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

BioFury said:


> I'd laugh if it wasn't so heart-wrenching. What the hell is wrong with her?


No sir, with all due respect the question is what the hell is wrong with YOU?


----------



## BioFury

3Xnocharm said:


> No sir, with all due respec the question is what the hell is wrong with YOU?


*deep breathe* Don't get angry....

-

Would you care to elaborate?


----------



## Tasorundo

I think he is saying, why do you keep engaging with this girl. She has shown you multiple times already that she is super immature, passive aggressive and oblivious to your feelings.

Stop responding to her, and for damn sure don't put your heart in a position to be wrenched by her.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

BioFury said:


> *deep breathe* Don't get angry....
> 
> -
> 
> Would you care to elaborate?


Meaning what is going on with you that you allowed yourself YET AGAIN to get sucked into this crazy woman's path? You KNOW that she is a waste of time, yet you cant seem to stop responding when she reaches out to you. You very clearly are her backup plan for when things dont pan out with someone else she tries to latch onto. You dont deserve to be a backup plan, so why do you keep doing this to yourself? She's a pain in the butt.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Tasorundo said:


> I think he is saying, why do you keep engaging with this girl. She has shown you multiple times already that she is super immature, passive aggressive and oblivious to your feelings.
> 
> Stop responding to her, and for damn sure don't put your heart in a position to be wrenched by her.


Yes!


----------



## Prodigal

Life is too short for all this game-playing. Quit engaging her. Period. Block her number. And quit letting her rent space in your head. Jeesh!


----------



## Ursula

Well to be honest, I think you made a huge mistake playing devil’s advocate the way you did, and you pretty much made her talk about a sensitive issue from the viewpoint opposite of her own. Then you challenged her. And now you’re confused about why she no longer wants to be with you, which boggles my mind. 

I guess you could try telling her that you only wanted to have a deep theoretical discussion about the subject and that you never meant to attack her POV. I’m not sure if that will make a difference though, as she probably really does believe that you were trying to attack her. That’s never a good feeling in relationships. My very first boyfriend from years ago used to do exactly what you did: devil’s advocate, take the opposing viewpoint that he didn’t actually believe in just to get me to talk. I used to be very meek and quiet. And, it drove me nuts. It made me mad, hurt like all get-up, and I felt attacked and cut down as a human. He didn’t really seem to care about my opinions or who I was as a person at all. This is probably much what she’s feeling.

I just got to your paragraph where you say that you’ve been trying to explain things to her, and it looks like this is someone that you lost for a really stupid reason. I’m sorry, but I hope you learned from this, and will refrain from doing this to someone else in the future.


----------



## colingrant

Surprised you don't see the red flag that's flying directly over your head, flapping in the wind in all its glory. Her over the top response is an indicator she may have done you a favor. My dating experience before marriage over 20 years ago can be considered MASSIVE. One thing I learned was to read and pay with casual, but very close attention to the disposition one carries during discussions to determine how deep, poised and pleasant one can discuss a variety of subjects. 

I never sought agreeable partners, just poised and personable intellectual conversationalists, capable of not taking any issue personal to serious and confident in there ability to express their opinion without trying to convince me of agreeing with it. If they did, what this said to me is that we're going to be arguing a lot and that get's old real quick. Her response seems a excessive and perhaps you should take it as a warning.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

The fact that HER FATHER has any kind of say so in her personal love life is a huge flashing neon STAY AWAY sign. What self respecting grown woman allows her daddy to dictate this?


----------



## BioFury

3Xnocharm said:


> Meaning what is going on with you that you allowed yourself YET AGAIN to get sucked into this crazy woman's path? You KNOW that she is a waste of time, yet you cant seem to stop responding when she reaches out to you. You very clearly are her backup plan for when things dont pan out with someone else she tries to latch onto. You dont deserve to be a backup plan, so why do you keep doing this to yourself? She's a pain in the butt.


*sigh* Because I don't have the luxury of an infinite dating pool. I've been looking for years, and only met 2 people I could see being with. Her being the most promising.

As far as being a backup plan... I don't get that impression. Perhaps if I were dating a regular person, with an infinite dating pool. But I'm not, her pool is restricted just as mine is. People she can date are few and far between.



3Xnocharm said:


> The fact that HER FATHER has any kind of say so in her personal love life is a huge flashing neon STAY AWAY sign. What self respecting grown woman allows her daddy to dictate this?


We're religious. That's typical.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

BioFury said:


> *sigh* Because I don't have the luxury of an infinite dating pool. I've been looking for years, and only met 2 people I could see being with. Her being the most promising.


You are better off on your own than to be with someone else who you already know is a flaky pain in the ass. Settling because you dont have a lot of women to choose from is setting yourself up for a miserable life in the future.


----------



## BioFury

3Xnocharm said:


> You are better off on your own than to be with someone else who you already know is a flaky pain in the ass. Settling because you dont have a lot of women to choose from is setting yourself up for a miserable life in the future.


I wasn't settling. She's a terrific match for me. She's their eldest, and she's never dated before. So it's understandable that they would freak out, with me being serious, a great match for her, and all that. Suddenly it was a very real possibility that they would be "losing" their daughter, for her, she was being faced with big choices and emotions she's never dealt with... So I was willing to forgive the initial drama, because this is completely new to her and her family.

Now that it's become a pattern, not so much.


----------



## Ursula

BioFury said:


> So, in the next episode of this ridiculous saga, the girl texted me again two nights ago. It was late, I was up watching a movie, so I wrote her back. The condensed version is she said she wanted me, said she was sorry, and asked for another chance. A chance to repair all the damage she's done. She was being as sweet as a jolly rancher, seemed remorseful, and doing the adorable "I need you" stuff that women do, and talked to me until 4 AM. She also mentioned that when she said she didn't want me the last time, that it was really difficult for her to say that. But that she needed to pray about us first, etc. Basically, it was a load of bollocks.
> 
> So the next morning rolls around, and she's being cute and cuddly. She goes to work, and *later has a conversation with her dad. After which, she relays to me that her dad only wants us to be friends.* No flirting, no romance, etc., take things slow, and progress to a dating relationship later - possibly. In my head, I'm thinking "cutting the ears off a mule doesn't make it a horse" - or otherwise said, we're already emotionally invested, sticking the label "friends" on it isn't going to change the nature of our relationship. So I voiced respectfully that I had doubts about this. To which she basically responded with "if you don't like it we can stop talking". At which point I was like "Woah". So doing my best to ignore her cold and inconsiderate treatment of me, I say I'll give it a shot (I was sleep deprived, wasn't thinking very clearly).
> 
> Only from that moment forward, she's treating me really different. She's distant, and ignored me much of the day. So that night, I write her and tell her that I'm having a difficult time with what's going on, that the way she's treated me today was hurtful, and that I'd like to talk about it. To which she responded that she was tired, and wanted to go to sleep. I was stung once gain by her complete disregard for my feelings, but said goodnight, hoping that we could have a more productive conversation the next day when we were both well-rested.
> 
> So I say good morning, and she writes and tells me that my insinuation that her dad was influencing her against me (I merely said that her behavior changed after their conversation, I didn't say anything more, or against her dad) made her very angry. I responded that I hadn't been speaking against her dad, but merely referencing their conversation as the point as which her behavior shifted. That I just wanted to talk about what's happening. To which, she said I wanted to move too fast, and that she's not interested in me any more.
> 
> To which I said "ok".
> 
> I'd laugh if it wasn't so heart-wrenching. What the hell is wrong with her?


How old is this girl, 15? I take back my original sentiments regarding this situation, and will now say that you dodged a bullet. Holy macaroni!


----------



## Ursula

BioFury said:


> *sigh* *Because I don't have the luxury of an infinite dating pool.* I've been looking for years, and only met 2 people I could see being with. Her being the most promising.
> 
> As far as being a backup plan... I don't get that impression. Perhaps if I were dating a regular person, with an infinite dating pool. But I'm not, her pool is restricted just as mine is. *People she can date are few and far between.*
> 
> We're religious. That's typical.


Why are your dating pools so small? Is it strictly because you're religious? Is religion more important than finding a good match though?


----------



## farsidejunky

BioFury said:


> For what purpose? If I get sick of her garbage, and tell her to piss off, thus inflaming her "he's such a strong he-man" desire for me, it will be too late for her.
> 
> If I give in, and give another chance, she'll think me weak. So what the hell is the point?


You are giving her way too much credit. What you want from her requires emotional intelligence and maturity. What she is demonstrating through her behavior is a total lack of both.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## lovelygirl

BioFury said:


> *sigh* Because I don't have the luxury of an infinite dating pool. I've been looking for years, and only met 2 people I could see being with. Her being the most promising.
> 
> As far as being a backup plan... I don't get that impression. Perhaps if I were dating a regular person, with an infinite dating pool. But I'm not, her pool is restricted just as mine is. People she can date are few and far between.


I could see this answer coming! 
THAT is the problem!! You're dating her 'cuz you have no other choice, not because you really want to. This alone is a HUGE mistake and a STRONG REASON NOT TO date someone. 
You are with her out of convenience, not out of love.

A few months/years down the road, you'll regret being with her if this "relationship" advances.


----------



## Openminded

BioFury said:


> *sigh* Because I don't have the luxury of an infinite dating pool. I've been looking for years, and only met 2 people I could see being with. Her being the most promising.
> 
> As far as being a backup plan... I don't get that impression. Perhaps if I were dating a regular person, with an infinite dating pool. But I'm not, her pool is restricted just as mine is. People she can date are few and far between.
> 
> 
> 
> We're religious. That's typical.


Then, since you obviously want to be with her, your only choice is to agree to whatever she suggests. Maybe eventually her dad will be okay with you. Maybe. Just make sure you don't complain about him or anything else because she doesn't like that. You won't ever have an easy time with her but you already know that.


----------



## lucy999

It should not be this hard right out of the gate. I do understand religion plays a huge part of this, (actually 100%) but it still shouldn't be this hard.

Like I said upthread awhile ago, her dad will dictate your relationship so be prepared if you continue on this road. There will be 3 people in this relationship. Either accept it or not. I don't see anything changing for a long, long time, if ever. And if something does change, it'll have to be initiated by her. You will never have a voice.

Still, I feel like you're forcing a square peg into a round hole.


----------



## Prodigal

My understanding is you are a Messianic Jew. So what's the problem with dating a fundamentalist/Baptist/Pentecostal? You believe Jesus is the Messiah. They believe Jesus is the Messiah. 

I fail to see why your pool can't be expanded. It's not like you have to observe Passover or Purim any longer. I assume you celebrate Easter and Christmas. Again, I fail to see why you would even consider settling for this flake.


----------



## BioFury

Tasorundo said:


> I think he is saying, why do you keep engaging with this girl. She has shown you multiple times already that she is super immature, passive aggressive and oblivious to your feelings.
> 
> Stop responding to her, and for damn sure don't put your heart in a position to be wrenched by her.


I try to treat people like I would want to be treated. When I met them, they seemed like normal, decent and good people. So I've tried to give them (or her) the benefit of the doubt. That there's a reasonable explanation.

But you may be right. She could just be a selfish and immature person. Her actions certainly indicate as much.



Ursula said:


> How old is this girl, 15? I take back my original sentiments regarding this situation, and will now say that you dodged a bullet. Holy macaroni!





Ursula said:


> Why are your dating pools so small? Is it strictly because you're religious? Is religion more important than finding a good match though?


She's 24. I guess I just don't understand why she's so inconsistent. If she's immature, then I would think it would be reflected in all her actions. Not just when her second personality comes out to play.

Well, my belief system forbids marrying outside my faith. Though I have considered it. I was talking to an unbelievably cute christian girl the other day, as kind and gentle as Mother Teresa. But she said I lived too far away, and she wears bikinis. Totally unrelated, but seriously, if I asked a random girl for a pic of her in her panties, she'd refuse. But she'll mindlessly strip down for the general public, so long as there's a lot of H20 in close proximity? Makes zero sense. Anyway.


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## BioFury

farsidejunky said:


> You are giving her way too much credit. What you want from her requires emotional intelligence and maturity. What she is demonstrating through her behavior is a total lack of both.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


You may be right. They seemed like good people, and she's fantastic most of the time. It's like she's bipolar. Everything's great, till BAM!



lovelygirl said:


> I could see this answer coming!
> THAT is the problem!! You're dating her 'cuz you have no other choice, not because you really want to. This alone is a HUGE mistake and a STRONG REASON NOT TO date someone.
> You are with her out of convenience, not out of love.
> 
> A few months/years down the road, you'll regret being with her if this "relationship" advances.


No, I'm dating her because she's a stellar match, I care about her, and she's fantastic 90% of the time.

The reason I continued to give her chance after chance, is because of my small dating pool. Though admittedly, I'm a hopeless romantic, and total sap, so I likely would have given her another chance, regardless of the size of my pool.



Openminded said:


> Then, since you obviously want to be with her, your only choice is to agree to whatever she suggests. Maybe eventually her dad will be okay with you. Maybe. Just make sure you don't complain about him or anything else because she doesn't like that. You won't ever have an easy time with her but you already know that.


Lol, something like that actually went through my head. But I'm not going to be in a label-less relationship, hoping that one day I'll be graced with an answer.


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## Prodigal

BioFury said:


> Well, my belief system forbids marrying outside my faith.


Ever hear of the late Manny Brotman? Familiar with Sid Roth? I attended services at Manny's house at one time. I knew Sid pretty well. A good friend of mine worked for their ministry. Manny married a Christian woman and he was one of the early mover-and-shakers in the Messianic Jewish movement. After his first wife died, he married Sandra Sheskin, who was also a Messianic Jew.

However, based on my own first-hand experience, I don't think your belief system lines up with that of other Messianic Jews.


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## Ursula

BioFury said:


> She's 24. I guess I just don't understand why she's so inconsistent. If she's immature, then I would think it would be reflected in all her actions. Not just when her second personality comes out to play.
> 
> Well, my belief system forbids marrying outside my faith. Though I have considered it. I was talking to an unbelievably cute christian girl the other day, as kind and gentle as Mother Teresa. But she said I lived too far away, and she wears bikinis. Totally unrelated, but seriously, if I asked a random girl for a pic of her in her panties, she'd refuse. But she'll mindlessly strip down for the general public, so long as there's a lot of H20 in close proximity? Makes zero sense. Anyway.


Huh? Wearing a bikini or bathing suit is hardly “stripping down for the general public”. It’s called “going swimming”. Stripping down for the general public would be going nude. Swimsuits are what people wear when they swim and enjoy watering holes. Do you wear full army gear when you swim? I didn’t think so, so why should women? I’m curious about what your faith is now, and I’m thinking Quiverful.

If your dating pool is so slim, I would probably now suggest talking with her and maybe just taking things really slow, which, if you guys are Quiverful, would be the case anyways. Or, you might want to expand your horizons a bit and try looking in other cities/towns, or even different countries.

I think that you would be settling for this girl, but like you’ve said, she a stellar match and fantastic 90% of the time. Can you handle the other 10% with strong faith?

ETA: half nudie pics are WAAAAY different than going swimming! I would never send anyone a photo of me close to me being nude (I've had requests and shot them all down, and I'm not religious; I just have morals). However, I have zero problem heading to a beach.


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## BioFury

Ursula said:


> Huh? Wearing a bikini or bathing suit is hardly “stripping down for the general public”. It’s called “going swimming”. Stripping down for the general public would be going nude. Swimsuits are what people wear when they swim and enjoy watering holes. Do you wear full army gear when you swim? I didn’t think so, so why should women? I’m curious about what your faith is now, and I’m thinking Quiverful.
> 
> If your dating pool is so slim, I would probably now suggest talking with her and maybe just taking things really slow, which, if you guys are Quiverful, would be the case anyways. Or, you might want to expand your horizons a bit and try looking in other cities/towns, or even different countries.
> 
> I think that you would be settling for this girl, but like you’ve said, she a stellar match and fantastic 90% of the time. Can you handle the other 10% with strong faith?
> 
> *ETA: half nudie pics are WAAAAY different than going swimming! I would never send anyone a photo of me close to me being nude (I've had requests and shot them all down, and I'm not religious; I just have morals). However, I have zero problem heading to a beach.*


I wear board shorts and a tshirt when I go swimming. But no, I'm not quiverfull.

I read something a long time ago that said "What you put up with, you end up with", so no, I'm not willing to put up with someone who's mercurial. I can only imagine the hell of being married to someone who's thoughts and emotions pinball back and forth between extremes.

But the bolded is exactly what I'm talking about. You think they're completely different, but I don't understand why.

Imagine for a second that you took a photo of yourself in your underwear. Then imagine you took a second picture of yourself in a bikini, and compare the two photos in your mind. The former, you would absolutely refuse to show someone. While the latter, you would show to anyone willing to look at your phone (metaphorically speaking). I don't understand how that adds up. In what way are they different?


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## lovelygirl

BioFury said:


> I wear board shorts and a tshirt when I go swimming. But no, I'm not quiverfull.
> 
> I read something a long time ago that said "What you put up with, you end up with", so no, I'm not willing to put up with someone who's mercurial. I can only imagine the hell of being married to someone who's thoughts and emotions pinball back and forth between extremes.
> 
> But the bolded is exactly what I'm talking about. You think they're completely different, but I don't understand why.
> 
> Imagine for a second that you took a photo of yourself in your underwear. Then imagine you took a second picture of yourself in a bikini, and compare the two photos in your mind. The former, you would absolutely refuse to show someone. While the latter, you would show to anyone willing to look at your phone (metaphorically speaking). I don't understand how that adds up. In what way are they different?


As much as you tried to make an analogy between the bikinis at the beach and bikinis sent to you personally, still it depends on the context.

Would you go with boxers at work? There'd be nothing wrong, because again...you wear shorts at the beach, no? 
Can she go to work wearing bikinis? Nothing wrong, she wears them at the beach, right?

See? :|

So, when you personally ask her for bikinis, it's on a different context than when she wears them at the beach without necessarily attracting any "sexual" attention on purpose.


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## Ursula

BioFury said:


> I wear board shorts and a tshirt when I go swimming. But no, I'm not quiverfull.
> 
> I read something a long time ago that said "What you put up with, you end up with", so no, I'm not willing to put up with someone who's mercurial. I can only imagine the hell of being married to someone who's thoughts and emotions pinball back and forth between extremes.
> 
> But the bolded is exactly what I'm talking about. You think they're completely different, but I don't understand why.
> 
> Imagine for a second that you took a photo of yourself in your underwear. Then imagine you took a second picture of yourself in a bikini, and compare the two photos in your mind. The former, you would absolutely refuse to show someone. While the latter, you would show to anyone willing to look at your phone (metaphorically speaking). I don't understand how that adds up. In what way are they different?


To me, they're different because in 1 photo I would be in my underwear, which is something that only my partner has seen me in. In the other photo, I would be wearing clothing that is suitable in public. Granted, I wouldn't walk down city streets in a bathing suit, but it's suitable clothing if you're say, on a beach in Mexico, or your local swimming pool. I would find a shirt and shorts too heavy to swim in, particularly because I'm not a strong swimmer to begin with. It would be more of a drowning hazard than I'd be comfortable with. Would I send a photo of me in undies or a bathing suit to anyone? No. Would I show someone a photo of me in a bra and panties to anyone? Nope, and I wouldn't even take one honestly. I also wouldn't show one of me in a bathing suit (despite you saying that I willingly would), but that has more to do with being self-conscious with certain body areas. So, in a nutshell the difference is this: undergarments that a select person sees me in VS clothing that is suitable in certain public areas.

I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with someone temperamental; my only thoughts on pursuing her was that if your dating pool is so small, it might be years before you find someone else suitable, unless you're okay with expanding your search to other cities or places in the world. And if she's a 90% stellar match, that also says a lot. Plus, given that you said that family involvement is pretty much the normal within your religion, there's no getting away from that no matter who you choose.


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## Prodigal

@BioFury - This is just a load of crap. You have excuses for not finding a woman who would be a match. But they're YOUR excuses. It's called painting yourself in a corner.


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## lucy999

Prodigal said:


> It's called painting yourself in a corner.


I do believe I used this very phrase upthread awhile back. And I agree.


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## Elizabeth001

When you find the right person, you won’t care what obstacles are in your way. You will EQUALLY find a way to make it happen. It will come natural to you both. 

This chick ain’t it. Square peg/round hole, etc. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks

There is an expected dress code for Jewish women depending on their denomination, culture and community. Modesty is the basis of the dress code. Jewish women do wear modest bathing suits.


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## BioFury

Elizabeth001 said:


> When you find the right person, you won’t care what obstacles are in your way. You will EQUALLY find a way to make it happen. It will come natural to you both.
> 
> This chick ain’t it. Square peg/round hole, etc.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, she's the best fit I've found thus far, and I've spent countless hours looking, and paid for every dating site there is.

So if she's not it, I'm probably screwed. And not in the way I'd like.


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## lucy999

You're settling. You're supposed to be saying, I can't sleep, I can't concentrate, all I do is think about her. I want to be with her and talk to her, know everything about her.

That's not even remotely what you're saying. If I were her and I was privy to the things you were saying about me, I'd lose your number. You're saying, welp, she's the best I've found so far.


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## BioFury

lucy999 said:


> You're settling. You're supposed to be saying, I can't sleep, I can't concentrate, all I do is think about her. I want to be with her and talk to her, know everything about her.
> 
> That's not even remotely what you're saying. If I were her and I was privy to the things you were saying about me, I'd lose your number. You're saying, welp, she's the best I've found so far.


I was saying all those things when we first met, and even after she screwed me over the first time. But everything she's done since then caused me to retreat into my shell. So while disappointing and painful, I half-way saw this 2nd screw over coming. Whenever I felt myself going that way, I'd stop myself. I didn't allow myself to get emotionally vulnerable and invested to that extent this time around.

So yes, you'll have to forgive me if her stabbing me in the heart, and pitching me off a cliff for good measure didn't cool my emotional furnace a little bit. I've done my crying about it, and maybe I'll need to do some more in the future. But right now, I'm in a different place.

My statements that she's the best I've found, are simply conveying that if I can't get things to work with her, then what hope is there? Everything fit. There was sexual and emotional chemistry, and all our interests and goals aligned. Yet it was a dismal failure.


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## lucy999

BioFury said:


> I was saying all those things when we first met, and even after she screwed me over the first time. But everything she's done since then caused me to retreat into my shell. So while disappointing and painful, I half-way saw this 2nd screw over coming. Whenever I felt myself going that way, I'd stop myself. I didn't allow myself to get emotionally vulnerable and invested to that extent this time around.
> 
> So yes, you'll have to forgive me if her stabbing me in the heart, and pitching me off a cliff for good measure didn't cool my emotional furnace a little bit. I've done my crying about it, and maybe I'll need to do some more in the future. But right now, I'm in a different place.
> 
> My statements that she's the best I've found, are simply conveying that if I can't get things to work with her, then what hope is there? Everything fit. There was sexual and emotional chemistry, and all our interests and goals aligned. Yet it was a dismal failure.


So then quit forcing a square peg into a round hole. This is NOT the woman for you. Keep searching.


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## turnera

BioFury said:


> But you may be right. She could just be a selfish and immature person. Her actions certainly indicate as much.


No, the real problem here is that she is too tied to her father. Any woman who does what her dad says will NEVER stop doing what her dad says. No matter what religion you're in, that's a huge red flag and you'd be in for a lifetime of NO CONTROL over your own marriage.



> But she said I lived too far away, and she wears bikinis. Totally unrelated, but seriously, if I asked a random girl for a pic of her in her panties, she'd refuse. But she'll mindlessly strip down for the general public, so long as there's a lot of H20 in close proximity? Makes zero sense. Anyway.


I'll gently suggest anyway that if you see things this way, you don't understand the female that well. There's a huge difference to women and it's kinda important to know the difference. Maybe read some books on the subject; it can really help you understand how women think and feel, which can only help you in your search for a partner. Maybe start with Men Are From Mars.


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## turnera

BioFury said:


> Imagine for a second that you took a photo of yourself in your underwear. Then imagine you took a second picture of yourself in a bikini, and compare the two photos in your mind. The former, you would absolutely refuse to show someone. While the latter, you would show to anyone willing to look at your phone (metaphorically speaking). I don't understand how that adds up. In what way are they different?


Because we choose our underclothes for a variety of reasons, psychological reasons, because they are TO BE WORN under clothing we show to the world, because they are the last defense to having sex and letting a man see them is tantamount to "I'm into you and ready to have sex," because taking them off is a physical act that says "I'm letting you have a glimpse of what only a privileged few - WHOM I CHOOSE - get to see," because there's a fine line between keeping your underclothes on and some rapist or jerk getting inside them and doing what you don't want. None of these things can be said for a bikini.


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## lovelygirl

lucy999 said:


> You're settling. You're supposed to be saying, I can't sleep, I can't concentrate, all I do is think about her. I want to be with her and talk to her, know everything about her.
> 
> That's not even remotely what you're saying. If I were her and I was privy to the things you were saying about me, I'd lose your number. You're saying, welp, she's the best I've found so far.


Yeah, If I read his posts and if I was her, I'd think "_he's so desperate. I'll have to shut him down. He doesn't want me for "me". He wants me because he has no other choice. He's settling out of convenience ...and down the road, he might even leave or cheat on me once he realizes he has more chances or meets other women throughout life. I'm just an option for him, not a choice. "_

Stop acting desperate, OP. Actually, she might have noticed this [as she's already sh*t-tested you, and you failed the test]. So she knows you won't go anywhere ...anyway. You're a "sure" thing to her now.
She can come&go as much as she wants ... cuz she knows you'll stay there. 

You are giving off the "desperate" vibe, OP. Sorry.


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## turnera

BioFury said:


> Well, she's the best fit I've found thus far, and I've spent countless hours looking, and paid for every dating site there is.
> 
> So if she's not it, I'm probably screwed. And not in the way I'd like.


Then I suggest you find a good couples therapist and ask her to attend so the two of you can get help from a professional on her need to do what her daddy says. If you don't, you will be miserable the rest of your life with her.

Her actions scream that she WANTS to be what you're looking for, but she's still too young to be able to stand up to her dad. (I was still feeling guilty for having sex when I was 30, and I'd been married 9 years!) If girls are raised with a dad who 'owns' her moral righteousness, it's really hard to go against his wishes, at least until she's in her 30s and finally feels complete and able to make her own decisions. 

Don't recall: Have you tried getting to know her dad?


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## BioFury

lovelygirl said:


> Yeah, If I read his posts and if I was her, I'd think "_he's so desperate. I'll have to shut him down. He doesn't want me for "me". He wants me because he has no other choice. He's settling out of convenience ...and down the road, he might even leave or cheat on me once he realizes he has more chances or meets other women throughout life. I'm just an option for him, not a choice. "_
> 
> Stop acting desperate, OP. Actually, she might have noticed this [as she's already sh*t-tested you, and you failed the test]. So she knows you won't go anywhere ...anyway. You're a "sure" thing to her now.
> She can come&go as much as she wants ... cuz she knows you'll stay there.
> 
> You are giving off the "desperate" vibe, OP. Sorry.


Maybe I'm terrible at communicating, but all of you expressing this "she was just an option" stuff, couldn't be further from the truth. I don't fall in love randomly. I fall in love with people who are great matches for me.

If being sure upon finding what I'm looking for, after years of searching through crud is "desperate", then sure, I'm desperate. I call it being genuine, and knowing what I want.



turnera said:


> Then I suggest you find a good couples therapist and ask her to attend so the two of you can get help from a professional on her need to do what her daddy says. If you don't, you will be miserable the rest of your life with her.
> 
> Her actions scream that she WANTS to be what you're looking for, but she's still too young to be able to stand up to her dad. (I was still feeling guilty for having sex when I was 30, and I'd been married 9 years!) If girls are raised with a dad who 'owns' her moral righteousness, it's really hard to go against his wishes, at least until she's in her 30s and finally feels complete and able to make her own decisions.
> 
> Don't recall: Have you tried getting to know her dad?


She insisted that her decision had nothing to do with her dad. She was very angry that I "insinuated" that he had caused her change in behavior.

But no, I haven't had the opportunity to talk with her dad.


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## Prodigal

To all of you taking the time to post, I think it is fairly evident that @BioFury has me on "ignore" or simply chooses to ignore me. 

He WILL respond in his cherry-picking manner to those posters with whom he can refute their observations or advice. 

Like I said, he is painting himself into a corner of his own making. I'm frequently intrigued by people who post here with no real impetus to look inward at themselves and actually find a constructive, viable solution for their supposed problems.

As @3Xnocharm suggested, it would behoove the OP to reflect on what is the matter with his own mindset. However, I truly doubt that is forthcoming. 

Carry on.


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## BioFury

Prodigal said:


> To all of you taking the time to post, I think it is fairly evident that @BioFury has me on "ignore" or simply chooses to ignore me.
> 
> He WILL respond in his cherry-picking manner to those posters with whom he can refute their observations or advice.
> 
> Like I said, he is painting himself into a corner of his own making. I'm frequently intrigued by people who post here with no real impetus to look inward at themselves and actually find a constructive, viable solution for their supposed problems.
> 
> As @3Xnocharm suggested, it would behoove the OP to reflect on what is the matter with his own mindset. However, I truly doubt that is forthcoming.
> 
> Carry on.


You've been cherry picked :wink2:



Prodigal said:


> My understanding is you are a Messianic Jew. So what's the problem with dating a fundamentalist/Baptist/Pentecostal? You believe Jesus is the Messiah. They believe Jesus is the Messiah.
> 
> I fail to see why your pool can't be expanded. It's not like you have to observe Passover or Purim any longer. I assume you celebrate Easter and Christmas. Again, I fail to see why you would even consider settling for this flake.


I don't want to get into a theological debate, so I'll simply say that I do observe Mosaic law, and at this time, will not date anyone who doesn't. Doing so is against Mosaic law.



Prodigal said:


> Ever hear of the late Manny Brotman? Familiar with Sid Roth? I attended services at Manny's house at one time. I knew Sid pretty well. A good friend of mine worked for their ministry. Manny married a Christian woman and he was one of the early mover-and-shakers in the Messianic Jewish movement. After his first wife died, he married Sandra Sheskin, who was also a Messianic Jew.
> 
> However, based on my own first-hand experience, I don't think your belief system lines up with that of other Messianic Jews.


Correct, I'm an oddity among oddities. I do my best to adhere to scripture, rather than to a group, movement, or particular rabbi/pastor.



Prodigal said:


> @BioFury - This is just a load of crap. You have excuses for not finding a woman who would be a match. But they're YOUR excuses. It's called painting yourself in a corner.


It's called having morals. If I was sexually frustrated, would I be "painting myself in a corner" by not hiring escorts?

Merely because you don't hold the same morals, doesn't mean they aren't valid.


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## MattMatt

Warning! The destination of the next train to leave the station is *CrazyTown*.

Be prepared for a potentially bumpy journey and a* very *bumpy final destination.

Passengers are advised to purchase travel insurance, hard hats and flack jackets before boarding.

Thank you. And God Bless you on your journey.


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## Blondilocks

MattMatt said:


> Warning! The destination of the next train to leave the station is *CrazyTown*.
> 
> Be prepared for a potentially bumpy journey and a* very *bumpy final destination.
> 
> Passengers are advised to purchase travel insurance, hard hats and flack jackets before boarding.
> 
> Thank you. And God Bless you on your journey.


The man knows whereof he speaks. lol Take heed.


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## Elizabeth001

Dude is on the fast track for his first divorce. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Prodigal

BioFury said:


> It's called having morals. If I was sexually frustrated, would I be "painting myself in a corner" by not hiring escorts?
> 
> Merely because you don't hold the same morals, doesn't mean they aren't valid.


NOBODY said a word about hiring escorts, sleeping around, or doing something you would consider morally reprehensible. NOBODY.

You have no freaking idea what morals I hold. So don't make assumptions. And dispense with the sanctimonious crap.

You, my dear, have an answer for everything; or so you think. I assure you, you do not. Nor do I. You hold to Mosaic Law. Great. So marry an Orthodox Jew. Oh, yeah, Yeshua might get in the way there. And, no, I'm not going to argue theology with someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about. I'm beginning to see why almost-girlfriend terminated your attempt at a debate-type conversation. 

And I can clearly see why Matt warned us that this is heading for CRAZY TOWN.

Take up a hobby. You'll need it. Seriously.


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## CraigBesuden

Have some self respect. You are the prize, not her. If she plays games, cut her out like a cancer.


----------

