# Wit's End?



## Riddler (Oct 1, 2009)

Perhaps not quite at my wit's end, but frustrated, upset, and uncertain about how to proceed. So, I'm casting out my little message in an e-bottle, and hoping that someone out here can help me.

I am 25, my wife is 26. We have been married for nearly three years, but we have been together for nearly ten. I am not sure how long, precisely, we have been having problems with our sex life, but I fear that it predates our marriage. The problem waxes and wanes, from time to time, but that just makes it feel like this unpleasant roller-coaster or merry-go-round that involves arguing, reconciliation, and brief periods of relative bliss.

I'll be less ambiguous: it is possible that my libido is, perhaps, excessive. I try to take this into account. On the other hand, my wife's libido seems nonexistent. That is not hyperbole; she honestly seems like she has zero sexual energy. I would say that we have sex between 0-2 times a week; but I would add that when we do have sex it feels less like an intimate exchange and more like choreography. It's physically satisfying for both of us, I believe, but it does not provide the emotional contact that it used to. I think that this is because I feel that, regardless of how much she may enjoy it once we're engaged, she is not enthusiastic about the prospect. She may acquiesce out of a sense of obligation, and I find that prospect far worse than if she simply said, "No." 

The problem is that I am unhappy with my sex life as a result of this disparity. I very much desire my wife and I try to express that without making her feel pressured. I'm not sure how well I have succeeded. Short of making very overt statements such as, "Would you like to have sex?" it is damn near impossible to entice her. Kissing, caressing, etc. seem please her, but not arouse her (if that makes any sense whatsoever). I don't believe that the sex is stale, either. We have experimented a fair amount. To be clear, those experiments have involved only ourselves. 

We have spoken, many times, about these problems, and I have tried to impress upon her how her apparent lack of desire for me makes me feel. She claims that she still finds me physically attractive and that she enjoys sex when we have it, and I am inclined to believe her. (I know, it's possible she is being dishonest in an attempt to spare my feelings... but that is extremely unlikely. It just doesn't fit our relationship.) I have no doubts, in the slightest, about her fidelity. Nor have I ever been unfaithful; I'm not interested in being unfaithful either. It's not just sex I desire, but mutually reciprocated desire with my spouse. 

She never initiates; not just sex, but physical intimacy of any kind. I'm finding myself increasingly abashed about touching her, because doing so arouses me and that brings with it a feeling of being ashamed. 

Our relationship, other than the sexual aspect, is relatively good. We obviously have our disagreements, as most couples do, but I believe that we love one another very much and, perhaps, get long better than many. However, I cannot simply partition off that aspect of our relationship, nor separate my own sexuality from the rest of my identity. The fact that I feel ashamed about my desire for my wife angers me, and I find myself with growing feelings of resentment. 

I think I'm bouncing around a bit. Sorry. I'm just not really sure how to unravel this Gordian Knot. She has stated that when I perform oral sex on her it is "amazing," and so I have tried to increase her enthusiasm by offering that more frequently, but to no avail. I have not, myself, had oral sex in... well, I can't recall, actually. A long while, apparently. 

I don't want to give her an ultimatum, or in any way bully or extort sex out of her. What I want is my wife to enjoy sex as I do, as I believe she did in the past, and who is enthusiastic about engaging in that kind of intimacy with me. I am not prepared to accept those goals as unrealistic. However, my wit is approaching its limit. 

Thank you for taking the time to read this.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I sent you a PM




Riddler said:


> Perhaps not quite at my wit's end, but frustrated, upset, and uncertain about how to proceed. So, I'm casting out my little message in an e-bottle, and hoping that someone out here can help me.
> 
> I am 25, my wife is 26. We have been married for nearly three years, but we have been together for nearly ten. I am not sure how long, precisely, we have been having problems with our sex life, but I fear that it predates our marriage. The problem waxes and wanes, from time to time, but that just makes it feel like this unpleasant roller-coaster or merry-go-round that involves arguing, reconciliation, and brief periods of relative bliss.
> 
> ...


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

You write nicely and passionately.

Does your wife have any abuse in her background? Undiagnosed or diagnosed mental or emotional problems? 

Was her family touchy-feely? 

When did things begin to change? Anything happen around that time? Child, for instance?

Also, you talk about emotional closeness. Not just physical. What kind of response are you looking for? Cuddling afterward? Satisfied smiles? 

I am asking a lot of questions. I know. But let's try to get some surrounding information before we start trying to figure out what's going on.


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## Riddler (Oct 1, 2009)

dobo said:


> You write nicely and passionately.
> 
> Does your wife have any abuse in her background? Undiagnosed or diagnosed mental or emotional problems?
> 
> ...


No, no; you're not asking a lot of questions. I appreciate the response. And thank you for the compliment. I tell people that I like the sound of my own voice, even when typing; picture me reading this aloud as I write it for the visual. 

Yes, she does. When I met my wife, nearly ten years ago, she was in a... I hesitate to call it a relationship, but she was "involved with" a man that was quite a bit older than her. She was a minor, he was not. They had a consensual relationship, but at some point it devolved and he accosted her on numerous occasions. In short, she was raped by her boyfriend. 

I helped her to disentangle herself from that situation. I did not, ever, act in a way that was the least bit improper. We were friends, at first, for a short time before the romance blossomed. She pursued me; she spoke to me first, she expressed her feelings first, and she initiated sexual intimacy first. I did not know the extent of her previous situation at the time, however. I only knew that she had been with a much older guy, and that I had once seen a bruise on her neck that I was very suspicious about. 

Her family was not touchy-feely.

We have no children, and this has been going on for quite some time so it's difficult for me to recall precisely when it began. I suppose I'd say it occurred some time after we moved in together while attending college. I'm afraid I can't really be more specific than that, and I'm not saying that moving in together was the cause. A correlation, perhaps, but no proof of causation.

I do talk about more than physical intimacy. I'm speaking about the emotional intimacy that monogamous, physical closeness is supposed to be the product of. _During_ the act, I have little complaint. Before and after, however, are another matter entirely. She, flat out, does not initiate anything. Kissing, touching, or love-making. She does not seem interested at all. If I were feeling ungenerous I'd say that she was a taker, not a giver. However, I do not mean that she is being malicious. After we conclude, she is up-and-away. Off to the computer, or the garden, or something else. This is to say nothing of the fact that what sex we do have has been relegated to appointment-like status. 

Now, I suppose I sound callous after revealing all of that. ("My wife was abused... Why won't she be affectionate or have sex with me?!?") <-- Sarcasm disclaimer. 

The thing is, and I'm not trying to minimize or marginalize the scars that such a trauma will leave at all, it happened a very long time ago. That, in itself, would not be sufficient, if not for the fact that between that time and now we had, for a time, a very healthy, very happy sex life. She, if not lavished, at least showed and displayed genuine physical affection. She's caress my neck for no good reason. She'd snuggle me without my needing to seek her out... which I frequently did, to be fair. Her own desire was significant! And now... I don't know. In the past she sought help in dealing with what happened to her. 

Had we never had any of the things that I'm saying I desire it would be easier for me to understand. As it is, I can only look back with feelings of confusion, hurt, and growing resentment.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

How old is she now? 

Has she gotten any talk therapy for what she went through?

Does she ever freeze during sex? I'm wondering if she suffers any sort of flashbacks. 

I can understand how you feel about what you once had versus now. But this can be a part of a continuum. Remember, at one point she was given the very real impression that her value had to do with sex. You've given her value in another way and she may be trying to control sex as a way of maintaining her value to herself. It is hard to explain but she may be doing now what she could not then. She's taking control now, because she couldn't then.

The unfortunate part is that you get caught in the middle. You aren't the perp. You do love her. And because of this, she feels safe enough with you to act this out. What she may not understand is that the longer she is this way, the harder it will be for her to get back to you.

Does she want to get back to you? I think that's the first thing to establish. Does she miss how you once were, even if she at this point, can't see herself acting on those feelings?

I really think she needs professional help. I think you both need to find someone who counsels the sexually abused. She was sexualized early by someone in a position of power (even if just by his age.) She may not have a good sense of herself. She may not understand that she can choose to give herself to you and to take what you have to offer, without it recalling those other feelings. When she believes she has control and that she gets to decide, she can decide that she really loves sex with you and that sex really is important, OR that she doesn't and it isn't. But she has to know that she has the choice. And, she has to make it.

I'm afraid that all I can tell you is to get both of you into therapy -- but she's the primary. You'd be called in to talk about what she needs to get where she needs to go. This unfortunately, really isn't about you. 

I'm sorry I don't have more positive things to tell you. Also know that with sexual abuse, dealing with the fallout can make things worse for a while. But it can get better. It did for me.


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## Riddler (Oct 1, 2009)

My wife is slightly older than I am, so she's about 26. It's been nearly ten years that we've been together, married nearly three of those, cohabitating for approximately 7. 

As far as actual therapy... no. We were both quite young when we met, and I'm afraid that I allowed my affection for her to guide my actions. When she first told me what had happened I wanted to go to the police immediately, despite the fact that there was no evidence. I was pretty walk-through-a-wall determined, and she actually broke down. She wept and pleaded with me not to tell anyone. I didn't. I have no excuse; I thought I was doing what was best for her at the time. 

Since then I have brought up the possibility of therapy once or twice. It's a difficult subject to broach, to say the least. She is not interested, and does not feel that it is needed. I do not have a rebuttal that would not sound accusatory or demeaning.

Does she want to get back to "the way it used to be?" I don't know, actually. When we've discussed this she has intimated as much, and I believed her then. I still do, but one never really knows for sure. 

She does not freeze or flashback--anymore. The first couple years that we were together were not easy for her, I think. We were happy, as I've indicated, but it was as though these nasty jack-in-the-boxes lurked under a pile of laundry. She would not take a bath for nearly three or four years after we met; showers only. 

The freezes and flashbacks weren't confined to sexual encounters, either. In fact, though my recollection has faded somewhat, I'd say that more often than not they occurred when we were not engaged in sexual activity. Often when she'd be drifting off to sleep she'd suddenly gasp and exhibit behavior very much like a very, very mild seizure. I didn't know what was happening until she explained. As I said, however, she has not had an incident for perhaps... seven years? That sounds about right.

Please, do not apologize for not delivering sunshine and roses. I admire candor far more than platitudes.

I am not sure how to proceed. Honestly, I posted here because I felt like I was at my limit. The prospect of trying to talk to her, again, about these issues, only to accomplish nothing was just... demoralizing. I'm sure I'll catch my wind again before long, and try to speak to her. Perhaps I'll try to tactfully suggest therapy. 

In the meantime, I'd like to hypothesize just a bit: if we assume that she has, in fact, come to terms with the abuse she suffered and, furthermore, assume that it is not the main or major source of our problems... where does that leave us? 

It may sound cruel, or perhaps selfish, but I almost hope it _is_ something as straight-forward as residual, unresolved feelings related to that past trauma. Reading it, that looks even more terrible than it sounded in my head, but I simply mean that it would give me a clearly defined problem that we could face instead of the intangible ambiguity that currently plagues me. 

Better PTSD and trauma than the reality of a wife that doesn't desire me? That... that's a bitter pill to swallow.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

It is possible that she's gone off sex because of accumulated hurts that occured in your relationship. Truthfully, you seem like a pretty astute guy and so if this is the case, I suspect you can put together a list of things you did that she never quite got over. And if that's the case, you can try to talk to her about those things and apologize and attempt to make amends. 

However, she's (IMO) not at her sexual peak. She's still young. And I really don't think she's dealt with what occured. Of course I could be wrong because everyone is different. But what happens is that what you do is learn to cope rather than truly getting over the past. There's a subtle difference. Coping means you're just getting by. Getting over means that you can act on how you feel NOW, based on your own feelings and thinking, without the past coloring your actions.

I had burried what happened to me pretty well. You would never have known anything ever happened to me, in fact. But I think looking at it, when my ex-husband would treat me indifferently or would make me feel as though my feelings didn't count or that I was crazy, I think it built the kind of resentment that goes with "so all you want me for is sex". In the end, I didn't want him at all.

(He did a lot of things to contribute to my not wanting him. He's at surface, a nice guy. But in truth, he's pretty effed up. He was definitely a liar of the 1st magnitude.)

So maybe you can see that the past is related to the present. Giving yourself freely to someone who has hurt you is a lot harder when you've been abused in the past. It isn't about sex. It is about self-preservation. 

Women are not compartmentalized like men tend to be. We're big picture people. Life for us is a continuum, not a series of still photos. We don't walk from one scene into the next without carrying the previous scene with us. We don't often get how a man can have a huge fight where terrible things are said, but then turn around and want sex. When you see something like that you get the idea that sex and love are even disconnected! 

It is important to finish old business before moving on. If you fight, don't just forget the fight. Make sure that the feelings are soothed over before you move on. Make up. Don't just forget. Resolve issues. Women need resolution.

If she's got a bunch of things in her life that are unresolved, she's going to continue to have problems. Even if you left, she'd have problems in her next relationship.

I bet she wonders why nobody was protecting her from this older guy. Even though it was consensual, looking back, she wasn't in any position to make a good decision about it. Where were her parents? Big brothers? Whatever. Someone.

I bet she blames herself for what happened. That's a big thing to resolve.

If nobody ever protects you, you learn your value pretty quickly.

Anyway, to get to the heart of the matter for you, I think it is a combination of her past and your relationship. I've given you some things to think about. With help, the two of you can work this out if she's brave enough to. She might not be.

Also, you don't need to tell her she needs therapy to deal with the past. You can simply say that marriages without sex are pretty much just friendships and marriages without sex generally are not happy marriages. You'd like to have a happy marriage and you'd like to find out what you can do to find happiness. Therapy can help the two of you arrive there. However, the therapist will have to know about her past. (I would expect one to ask, anyway, so you don't even have to tell her that.)

I have a feeling that you'll solve this. You come across as a very deep, nice person. 

I don't find your "selfishness" in wanting sex a problem. You want what most people in a healthy marriage want. Both men and women want it. It is normal.


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## Riddler (Oct 1, 2009)

Thank you. You certainly have given me quite a bit to think about. In fact, I'm going to ruminate a bit and, depending on how orderly I feel my thoughts are, I may try to speak to her this evening. If I do I'll probably return with an assessment of how that conversation went.

Don't all relationships develop accumulated hurts? I _know_ that I have said or done things that have hurt her, and I also know that we have not always smoothed those things out entirely. Certain things just stick in the craw, and certain arguments are based on something that may be a small but fundamental difference of perspective. But the inverse of that is likely true as well; she has not always treated me the way spouses should treat one another. In time I forgive and, eventually, forget. But again, I suppose I can see how unresolved arguments might fester.

I confess that the difference between 'coping' and 'getting over' did not really occur to me. To my way of thinking if she says she's over it, and she acts like she's over it... but I see how easy it might be to mistake one for the other, and how easy it might be for her to make that same mistake. It is disturbing to think of that particular skeleton lurking in the closet when I thought it was gone for so long.

Anyway, I think I need to get my thoughts in order before I approach her about this. The very last thing I want is to have an argument about the matter, and when the subject comes up she occasionally resorts to the "it's just about you getting your rocks off" argument. (She's not being vindictive; I can even see why she might think that.) However, after coming to this site and putting my feelings in to words even the slightest shred of doubt on that matter has been eliminated. The physical sensation is nice, but that's not what this is about for me, and I hope to be able to convince her of that.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

You may want to seek the advice of a professional before talking with her. There's nothing wrong with one spouse going to a therapist for a few chats before inviting the other one in. It is scary for the other spouse, but if you assure your wife that the only think you want is to deepen your love for her and vice versa, she can probably handle it.

Most people only go to therapy when things are too far gone. You're nowhere near that so this is an ideal time.

And yes, all relationships accumulate hurt. However, some people are able to let go of hurt easier than others. In part, people who have been abused often have a shaky sense of self. So getting over things is harder. They're not sure which messages they believe. 

Someone who is really sure of themselves might say, "Ah, I know that's not true." where someone who isn't will always question, "Maybe I am like that. I don't know." And that leads to all sorts of things like fear of abandonment, feelings of inferiority, a deep sense that you're a bottomless pit where there's no such thing as enough (love, attention, affection, whatever.) 

Is your wife typically a giver or a receiver? In bed you feel perhaps she's a receiver -- you said taker, but I think you mean that she's passive. That's different. Passivity is often about fear -- fear of making a mistake, fear of being ridiculed, fear of not being good enough, fear of judgement of any sort. People who take are generally that way in everything, not just sex.

Oh, one more thing about the way you forgive/forget over time. Remember, you may do things your way, but you have to understand her perspective. This is the thing that SJM impresses me with -- he's learning how to tune into his wife's perspective. Perspective isn't right or wrong. Perspective just is. Once you have a common understanding, you can begin to discuss how things could be seen differently, how you can work toward a shared perspective. 

Also remember, I could be full of hooey about all of this. The most important thing for you to understand is that everyone has their own story. Your wife has hers. You understanding it is helpful. But in the end, it is up to her to take control of her life and to turn it into the life that she really wants. So you only have so much power and control. 

At some point you're going to have to accept a compromise, I guess is what I'm saying. At some time you'll have to say, "this is good enough and I can be happy here because I love her and she loves me and we are giving each other the best of ourselves."


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## Riddler (Oct 1, 2009)

I would go to therapist with my wife if it was necessary, but going individually is not something I would be too terribly interested in. 

I did sit down and speak with my wife about these issues, but prior to doing so I put quite a bit of thought into the matter. One of the most important things I realized, prompted by your question, Dobo, about my wife's family, was the fact that one of the problems I was describing had very little to do with my wife and more to do with me.

My wife, as I mentioned previously, was not raised in a family that was very demonstrative as far as physical affection went. I, on the other hand, was. Whatever faults my family may have had they could not be accused of being un-affectionate. I realized it was hardly fair to say "my wife isn't affectionate" when it might be more appropriate to say, "I require a lot of physical affection." Physical affection being anything that falls on that spectrum of intimacy, from hand-holding to sex, and everything in-between. 

Anyway, I made some notes...ahem... in the form of an outline before broaching the subject with her, just so that I would be sure to touch on the points that I felt were important. She giggled when she saw me pull out a notebook and pen prior to speaking, which helped set the tone for the conversation. I will say that I felt like it was a very productive talk. However, it was not (nor did I expect it to be) a magic bullet for our problems; so, further advice would be much appreciated.

In short we discussed what the problem was and possible causes. I did not suggest therapy, but after we had been speaking for a while I asked her if she ever thought about what had happened to her in the past (_vis a vis_ the abuse). She replied that she did not, nor did she have flashbacks or bad dreams about the matter. She calmly, but firmly, denied that those experiences were a factor in this. I'll concede that she may not even be aware of it being a factor if it were. 

We discussed the possibility of physical causes; hormonal imbalances, and the effect that being on the birth-control pill for a prolonged period of time might have. This is not really an area that I'm very knowledgeable about, but we're looking into other methods of birth-control anyway, because of some concerns about the long-term effects on being on the pill.

Rather than giving an account of the minutes, I'll just cut to the chase. In our discussion we identified, I think, two factors that we think have the most impact on this situation. We glibly dubbed them _Goldilocks Syndrome_ and _White Rabbit Syndrome_.

_Goldilocks Syndrome_ is what I call my wife's need to have everything be "just right" before she can feel comfortable engaging in romantic intimacy. It must be the right day, right time, right temperature, right disposition; she must not be too hungry or too full, it must not be too hot or too cold. Things that I might perceive as quite trivial may be to her significant distractions. 

Related, and similar, to that is _White Rabbit Syndrome_. That's what my wife called the feeling that she is always going 500 miles an hour, even if only in her head. She said it's not that she doesn't enjoy sex, but that she just doesn't think about it. I suppose one might, in more mundane terms, simply call this being "stressed out." 

So, I don't have answers or solutions, but at least I feel like we have a somewhat more clearly defined problem. I don't know how to even begin to approach these problems, though, so any suggestions at this point would be quite appreciated.


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

I think she needs a checkup. She may be OCD or ADD or ADHD or I don't know what. 

Being on the pill can certainly influence libido. However, what's her excuse about things like hand-holding? Most women love that sort of thing. Can she make an effort to be more physically demonstrative throughout the day with you? 

In a lot of cases, I feel the pill is blamed for low drive unfairly. I would have to think that the two Syndromes have more to do with it than anything. I don't think she can get away without looking into those two areas if she really does wish to crack this nut.


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## Riddler (Oct 1, 2009)

I agree, I don't think it's the pill. I mentioned it primarily because I suppose we can't completely rule out physiological causes until we have a bit more information.

As far as the (non-sexual) displays of affection, we're working on that. I think communicating it in no uncertain terms helped convey just how important it was to me. I can't really assess the outcome in just a few short days, but we spoke on Friday night and she was obviously making an effort to address this on Saturday and Sunday. We'll see how it goes, but I'm optimistic. 

And yes, I also agree that it's our two jokingly named "syndromes" that are the main causes of the problem. 

Is it feasible that they could just be stress-related? If so, how on earth does one begin to approach such a situation? I mean, you take two different people and put them in the same circumstances and one may find them stressful and the other may not. If she is inclined to stress (and I would say that she is a bit of a 'worrier'), is there really much that can be done?


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## dobo (Jun 30, 2009)

If she's a worrier, therapy could help her sort out the things that are noise versus the things that are truly worth doing something about (versus worrying.) Worrying is unproductive and robs energy. So absolutely, therapy can help with stress and reality-checks.

There are also anti-anxiety medications available to help with such issues.

Buspar has a low effect on libido, FYI. 

My husband is extremely touchy-feely and I was raised in a very hands-off family. Despite that, I love how much he touches me and cuddles me. It occurs all throughout the day so there's no way to misread it as an overture toward sex.


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