# Wife wants only affection and has zero desire for sex!



## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

My wife is big on affection, she loves to cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. which I enjoy as well. The issue is when she does this I naturally get turned on and want to be intimate with her. Lately, I've stopped initiating sex when we show affection and we do the cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. that she loves.

We have had the sex talk before and she is fully aware of my higher sex drive and how I would love if we could strive for at least 1 - 2 times a week for sex; which I believe is completely doable.

*Footnote: * I can't even remember the last time we had sex it must be 2 months now, and the worst part is we don't have any kids.

In our sex talks, I've told her it's hard for me not to initiate sex because when we are affectionate she naturally turns me on and I find my wife very attractive.

She has told me she just doesn't desire sex as much as I need it, but what really hurts is she says she just doesn't have that "lusting" desire to have sex with me. And as a husband this is what hurts the most, I need/want my wife to desire me sexually not just be her big teddy bear that she hugs and cuddles with. The affection is great but it's not what makes me feel like a man, I want to know that I turn on my wife and she doesn't just want to have slumber parties with me.

This in turn effects me negatively, I start thinking that maybe she thinks I'm not good looking enough for her. I'm not overweight but I then try to lose weight to see if maybe this makes her more interested in me sexually. 

I've told her that I feel depressed when she doesn't desire me like I desire her sexually. And she knows I try to lose weight for her and she says that she finds me very handsome and that she doesn't want me to think of her as being shallow and thinking I need to lose weight for her to be sexually interested in me. But this is the only thing that makes sense to me; maybe if I had a 6-pack she would find me more sexually attractive...she has no problem saying how hot Channing Tatum looks.

She is very conscious about her weight and she always tries to work out and eat healthy, the best she can, but I feel like she definitely has a weight issue because if she gains a little bit of weight she feels depressed, thinks she's ugly, etc. And she would use this excuse in the past saying I just don't feel like having sex when I feel this ugly...no matter how many times I tell her she looks beautiful and I still find her attractive she still does not want to be intimate. 

So presently, we've been just showing affection as "cuddle buddies" and I no longer initiate sex because it doesn't make me feel good knowing she doesn't "lust/desire" me sexually; so what's the point of trying to sell/convince her into having sex with me. And she "never" initiates sex; so I know that day will never come...so by the looks of things I'll be celebrating my 3rd month of "sexless marriage"... 

Outside Perspective:

1. Women: Do you sexually desire your husbands? Do you ever initiate sex with your husband?

2. Men: Does you wife find you sexually desirable? Does she often initiate sex with you?


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

You haven't been married that long and have no kids.

You won't want to hear it and many many others here will disagree but you need to consider whether you can stay happily married in a sexless or nearly sexless marriage. If not, you need to make a decision now to leave because you are going to cheat or be miserable and have this misery effect the rest of your life and your sense of self. 

It is possible but not probable that things will change for the better over the long term.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

She has expressed how she feels. Now you have to decide if you can live in a sexless marriage. Read other posts on similar situations.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

She says the problem is not your weight. You say it must be, because that's the only thing that makes sense to you. So it's time to explore things that don't make sense to you, but might to her.

Is there anything she complains about? Wanting more time together, more date nights, more conversation, etc.?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

ptom,

curious, have you ever asked her if she lusted after other men, in other words does she lustful thoughts when she sees someone else.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You may need to divorce her to find a healthy sex life. One thing you might try, though, is once again telling her that the lack of sex is frustrating especially when cuddling etc. never leads to sex. If you want cuddling and kissing, then at least once a week that has to lead to sex. Pick a day, and let's see how that works.

If it doesn't work - and I expect it won't work at all or will fail within a few weeks - then you may have a difficult choice to make. If you miss a week of sex, stop all other intimacy for a week, and then suggest you start over again. After a few tries, she'll get the message and maybe good new habits will develop. If it does work for several months consistently, then after a while ask for twice a week - pick another day. You may not be able to do better than that unless having regular sex begins to appeal to her and increases her libido.


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## helpthisguy86 (Jan 14, 2014)

My Wife wanted the EXACT same thing for the longest time. She wanted all of the emotional perks for her but no sex for me. She always had a new excuse and the only time she would initiate is when she could tell I was exhausted and knew I wouldn't be up for it.

This is exactly why I am staying single well through my 30's. I basically shut my sex drive down from my ex denying me all the time, and it turned out she was having an EA "Still believe to this day it was a PA". I just don't want to get my sex drive going again only to end up with a woman that will deny me sex and thus me having to shut down again. Not worth it...


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## ihatethis (Oct 17, 2013)

Did you discuss these things before you got married? If so, how did that conversation go?

I am a very sexual woman, but there came a time in my marriage where my XH subconsciously was tearing me down and I didn't desire him like I should, and that made him feel unwanted. I never knew what was happening until after we got a divorce, but I realized it wasn't because I didn't like the sex, it was because he was tearing me down.

Now, I want it all the time, everywhere and anywhere. My sisters are the same way, so it's just in our blood. We are just very sexual women, ha!


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

brooklynAnn said:


> She has expressed how she feels. Now you have to decide if you can live in a sexless marriage. Read other posts on similar situations.


I'm the poster child for this & it's actually a lot less stressful & really not too bad!!!!!!!!!


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

ptomczyk11 said:


> My wife is big on affection, she loves to cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. which I enjoy as well. The issue is when she does this I naturally get turned on and want to be intimate with her. *Lately, I've stopped initiating sex *when we show affection and we do the cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. that she loves.
> 
> ....*Footnote: * I can't even remember the last time we had sex it must be 2 months now, and the worst part is we don't have any kids.
> 
> ...


Wow, you sound like a really "Nice Guy." I would suggest that you get Glover's Book No More Mr. Nice Guy and read it, re-read it and then study it, especially the parts about "covert contracts," begging for sex, and when something doesn't work trying to do the things that don't work even harder. Weight loss and 6-pack abs are not the answer to your problem.

Another great companion book you might want to read is MW Davis book the Sex Starved Marriage.

I was in a sex starved marriage and with the help of those books, plus others, the help of some website forums, a sex therapist, and others I was able to change myself from a "Nice Guy" into a person that my wife could again love and respect and who made her feel loved and cherished.

You might want to watch the attached video to see the kind of message that MW Davis tells women like your wife. I hope it resonates with you as it sounds like what you described. She has a great book the Sex Starved Marriage that I would suspect would help you and your wife a lot. The book by Glover has a slightly different perspective but also stresses the need to change yourself, become more reponsible for your happiness, change rather than repeat things you do that don't work, and become a more centered integrated person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpqHnk6Dh0U

Good luck.


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## 2ndchanceGuy (Sep 28, 2015)

IMO, you should both go to a marriage counselor . Also get her in to the Dr. for a full lab work up. 
Have her hormones etc checked. 
go from there.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your wife will be attracted to you if you bring alot to the table and let her come to understand that sex is the admission ticket to your world.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

helpthisguy86 said:


> My Wife wanted the EXACT same thing for the longest time. *She wanted all of the emotional perks for her but no sex for me*. She always had a new excuse and the only time she would initiate is when she could tell I was exhausted and knew I wouldn't be up for it.
> 
> This is exactly why I am staying single well through my 30's. I basically shut my sex drive down from my ex denying me all the time, and it turned out she was having an EA "Still believe to this day it was a PA". I just don't want to get my sex drive going again only to end up with a woman that will deny me sex and thus me having to shut down again. Not worth it...


I think this is excellent and deserves a remention. You need to tell her, directly, you are meeting her emotional needs but she is not meeting yours. Sex is the way many of us show our emotional side to our significant other. She needs to understand that. If she does and still doesn't care then you need to decide how the rest of your life is going to be.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Hold's 2 rules for mismatched libidos:
1. Do not get married while there is a sexual mismatch. It isn't fair to either of you.
2. Do not have kids while there is a sexual mismatch. It isn't fair to the kids.

You already broke rule #1. Do not break rule #2. You should be using 3 forms of birth control every time. I am not joking. Once she has your kid the exit cost goes up 1000%.

The fact that you are willing to accept this for so long indicates that you lack sufficient self-esteem. So do I. I have been accepting it for 23+ years. Which makes me a loser.

Do not be a loser like me. Get help. Hit the gym. Rock it at work. Tell her in no uncertain terms "I did not get married to be celibate. Tell me what I can do to help you be in the mood more often or I'll be telling you the name of my divorce lawyer." If your wife cannot suggest what you can do to get in the mood (which might require her to obtain an education on responsive desire and lose he mentality that she should only have sex when she feels like it as opposed to when she might be able to be turned on if she lets you get started), then there is an excellent chance you would be signing up for a life of sexless misery if you stay married to her. Is that why you got married? To be sexless and miserable?

The real problem here is not the lack of sex. It is the lack of sufficient self-regard that you would even consider accepting the lack of sex. Get into therapy. Not marriage counseling. Individual therapy for you. To figure out why you would even consider staying in a sexless marriage when you want sex and don't have kids yet. Clue in: there IS something wrong with you. But the problem is NOT what your wife says it is - that you want sex all the time. Wanting frequent sex is natural and normal and maybe even admirable. What is wrong with you is that your spouse rejects you over and over and you come back for more instead of telling her which bridge to jump off and stomping out the door. Tell your therapist you want to learn to be a door stomper. Once you learn to do that, you won't lack for sex. Might not be with this spouse, but it will be there for you.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Holdingontoit, I stayed 24 years, until I wised up and divorced my ex. Wasted, lonely years, but I finally got tired of being a loser - as you put it so accurately, if unflatteringly! The moment I moved out, I felt like a winner again. I was in charge of my own sexuality, and I made the most of it. The best part is that I met my current wife, who is everything that was lacking in my ex - and much more as well. Now I not only feel like a winner - I am one for real.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> My wife is big on affection, she loves to cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. which I enjoy as well. The issue is when she does this I naturally get turned on and want to be intimate with her. Lately, I've stopped initiating sex when we show affection and we do the cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. that she loves.
> 
> We have had the sex talk before and she is fully aware of my higher sex drive and how I would love if we could strive for at least 1 - 2 times a week for sex; which I believe is completely doable.
> 
> *Footnote: * I can't even remember the last time we had sex it must be 2 months now, and the worst part is we don't have any kids.


There are unlikely to be any kids when you don't have sex. :smile2:

So she is getting what she wants out of the relationship without really caring about your needs? Unless you agreed it beforehand the physical intimacy is not a take it or leave it optional extra in a marriage, even the Bible is pretty clear on that.



> So presently, we've been just showing affection as "cuddle buddies" and I no longer initiate sex because it doesn't make me feel good knowing she doesn't "lust/desire" me sexually; so what's the point of trying to sell/convince her into having sex with me. And she "never" initiates sex; so I know that day will never come...so by the looks of things I'll be celebrating my 3rd month of "sexless marriage"...
> 
> Outside Perspective:
> 
> ...


XW: Not that I was ever aware of. No never.

Wife: Yes, and she tells me so every day. Yes, frequently. And it's a really wonderful feeling that makes you feel alive and worthy.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies!


================================================
@Young at Heart Yes, what *Michele Weiner-Davis* says in the video resonates with me exactly. It's so crazy how she nails exactly how I feel about this whole sex situation.
@Holdingontoit Regarding your rule # 1, this was never an issue at the beginning of our relationship; it kind of sneaked in the back door as time went on.
@intheory Yeah, I'm not worried about her finding other actors attractive but the part that bothers me is that this lead into a discussion of how often she masturbates and she tells me that she does masturbate which shocked the hell out of me. I'm like, you know how important sex is to me and you are masturbating instead of trying to have sex with me? And she's like well sometimes I do it because it's just easier and faster.

================================================

It's just so hard to get her to understand how important intimacy/sex is to me. I've told her in the past that sex is not just sex, it's a lot more important to me because when we don't have sex it just makes me feel distant and not as close to her anymore. I try to explain it to her by saying it's probably exactly like how you feel if you don't get any affection.

She goes on to say well it's a lot easier for you to show me affection than it is for us to have sex, basically saying it takes a lot more work to have sex than to give her a hug/kiss. And I'm like, of course it's easier than hugs/kisses but that's not what it should be about; it's about me being unhappy and feeling like a roommate to you instead of being a lover/husband for you.

And exactly how *Michele Weiner-Davis* says in her video; by her never wanting to be intimate with me it doesn't make me want to be affectionate with her because I feel so distant from her.

She goes on to say that it's not just me, all of my friends and most girls feel the same way about sex. And again, I'm like I know this is not a problem unique to only us, hence TAM forum, but I'm not concerned with how your friends handle sex with their husbands or how other girls feel...I'm trying to tell you what makes me happy. 

Last discussion we had, she goes on to say I'm trying to be a good wife for you; I cook dinner, do the laundry, tell you how handsome you are, buy you gifts, tell you how much I appreciate everything you do...I've done everything except strip down naked and jump your bones but you still seem annoyed/distant with me.

I didn't want to bring up the sex again because we have had the same talk before so I just kept my mouth shut, but in my head when she said "*I've done everything for you except strip down naked and jump your bones*" I just wanted to scream!!! It's so frustrating to hear that from her; I don't care about the other things if she would have just done that 1 thing it would have made me the happiest husband in the world and would have brought me so much closer to her in terms of affection. 

She says, so if we never have sex you can't love me and be affectionate it with me. And that's not the case I still love her with all my heart; but exactly how "*Michele Weiner-Davis*" describes it; knowing my wife doesn't crave sex with me does hurt and makes me feel distant. I have asked her the same thing in the past, if I showed you ZERO affection would you still be happy and want to be with me, and she has said NO I wouldn't be happy and able to be with you because there would be a void that I would constantly feel. 

I feel like when it comes to "sex" there is never a "light bulb moment" in her head...so your "affectionate" needs are more important than my "sexual" needs? 

I feel "affection (hugs/kisses)" and "intimacy (sex)" should always be both equally important; one should not be more important than the other. It's not about one being easier to perform than the other; I feel both play very important roles to the importance of a happy marriage. I know stress, jobs, everyday life, etc. can effect all aspects of a relationship but I feel like no matter how hard or not in the mood you're in that we should always make it a priority to meet each other's "affectionate" and "intimate" needs.

So going back when she says "so if we never have sex you can't love me and be affectionate it with me", I don't think it should ever even get to this point. If we are meeting each others needs then this isn't even an issue.

This is the part that kills me she always says I know how important sex is to you...no, no you don't because you still don't initiate or give the slightest sign that you want to have sex with me. 

Thank you!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

So, OP, it sounds like you've got a better handle on the problem, but none on trying solutions. Maybe trying solutions will rock the boat, and then what will you do?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Once you do everything you can think of to be a more attractive partner (which will help you in the next phase whether she responds or not)... which includes getting in shape, not being passive-aggressive, getting your stuff done, being decisive, dressing well, being confident, and all that...

"Wife, I'm not prepared to stay in a sexless marriage for the rest of my life."

Then say nothing, go and walk away. Do not engage her further. 

And what you do is you start to live like you're single. Except no dating or sex with anyone else. Just be gone, be free, be happy. Do what you would do if you had a room-mate, not a spouse.

Give her a few weeks or months to think about that and approach you on that topic.

If she doesn't, then talk to a lawyer and divorce her, or talk to her about you having sex with other people while staying married to her if that's an option for you.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@ptomczyk11: She says, so if we never have sex you can't love me and be affectionate it with me. And that's not the case I still love her with all my heart.

Actually, she is correct and you are wrong. If you guys stay married but never have sex then yes, eventually you will stop loving her and you will in fact begin to hate her guts. So next time she says that, do not fight her. Instead say something like "well, that is not yet the case. I still love you today, which is why I am telling you how I feel and asking you to work with me to find a solution. But, eventually, if things continue on this way and we don't have enough sex, then yes I will eventually stop loving you. I don't want that to ever happen. Which is why I am here asking for your help to put us on a different path. Because the path we are on leads somewhere I never want to go."

Do not accept the underlying implication in her statement. She is implying that you would be bad or wrong or weak or stupid to stop loving her over sex. She wants you to feel ashamed to have a need for sex, or to allow your need for sex to interfere with your love for her. She wants you to feel ashamed for having a sex drive so she will not have to feel ashamed for utterly failing to uphold her end of the marital agreement. You both agree to remain monogamous. And you both agree to do your best to meet each other's sexual needs. That is the "deal" inherent in marriage, and she is failing to hold up her end. Do not fall for her trick. Tell her proudly and overtly "you are darn right that I have a sex drive and that my sex drive is important to me and sex is important to me. In fact, I am proud of my sex drive. I like sex. I enjoy having sex with my wife. I need sex to be happily married. If you are not prepared to help me satisfy my need for sex then you can expect my love for you to continuously erode until it is gone. Is that what you want?" She will rant and rave and accuse you of all manner of failings. Try not to laugh at her. Just remain silent and wait for her to finish yelling and ask if she is done. Then tell her "look, there is nothing that you can say that will get me to stop wanting to have sex with you or to eliminate the connection between the state of our sex life and the state of our marriage. If you want to be married to someone for whom there is no connection between sex and love then we better get divorced because I am never going to be that guy."

You might be afraid to do that. You may be tempted to say that might lead to the worst outcome imaginable - that she divorces you. Trust me, you would be wrong. The worst outcome is not divorce. The worst outcome is staying married to her and staying sexless.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> 
> ================================================
> ...


Dude, you blew your opportunity. when she made the comment about stripping naked you should have jumped all over that. Staying quiet reinforced to her that her need for affection was more important for your need for sex. 

You needed to tell her that yes that is exactly what I need from you. I can do all of those other things for my self. I know you do them lovingly and I appreciate that but they mean little compared to me compared to a loving passionate physically fulfilling sex life.

Then explain to her that if she can't live in an unaffectionate marriage why would she expect you to live an a sexless marriage. Explain that sharing all that affection with her just makes your desire for a sexual relationship greater. To you love affection and sex are all intertwined into one feeling. Remove one part and the whole thing will unravel.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Last discussion we had, she goes on to say I'm trying to be a good wife for you; I cook dinner, do the laundry, tell you how handsome you are, buy you gifts, tell you how much I appreciate everything you do...I've done everything except strip down naked and jump your bones but you still seem annoyed/distant with me.
> 
> I didn't want to bring up the sex again because we have had the same talk before so I just kept my mouth shut, but in my head when she said *"*I've done everything for you except strip down naked and jump your bones" I just wanted to scream!!! It's so frustrating to hear that from her; *I don't care about the other things if she would have just done that 1 thing *it would have made me the happiest husband in the world and would have brought me so much closer to her in terms of affection.


Maybe you could hear what she is telling you. She's concluded that NOTHING she does as a wife matters in the least bit to you, just sex.

She's not feeling loved and isn't getting emotional intimacy from sex. And, it's possible she isn't getting anything from it physically, either, like orgasms. So she has little interest in "doing it for you" because she doesn't feel that you appreciate anything else she does for you as a wife.

WHEN did that start happening? How long have you been married? How old are you two? Do you have kids? Have you slacked off on the dating aspect? Are you, and have you, behaved like a romantic dating partner during your marriage? 

Lots of people giving advice, but you haven't given much to go on about the state of your marriage and how it got there. You just keep talking about sex. And that's how it comes across to her - you just care about sex, not her.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> @ptomczyk11:
> Do not accept the underlying implication in her statement. She is implying that you would be bad or wrong or weak or stupid to stop loving her over sex. She wants you to feel ashamed to have a need for sex, or to allow your need for sex to interfere with your love for her. She wants you to feel ashamed for having a sex drive so she will not have to feel ashamed for utterly failing to uphold her end of the marital agreement. You both agree to remain monogamous. And you both agree to do your best to meet each other's sexual needs. That is the "deal" inherent in marriage, and she is failing to hold up her end. Do not fall for her trick.


 @Holdingontoit Great point above, this is "exactly" how I feel lately when I bring up sex. Obviously, this isn't the first time I've said something to her about "how important sex is to me" but the way you described it above is exactly how I feel once she is done speaking her peace. She makes me feel like I'm a bad husband because I enjoy and want to have as much sex as possible with my wife.

She has said I know guys need sex more than girls and if they don't get it that can lead them to cheating. The part that kills me is she is smart and she is fully aware of how important sex is to me, but she doesn't do anything different. It's always me buying her flowers, writing cute/loving notes, etc. trying to be affectionate with her; hoping that she will eventually put my needs first and be more intimate but that day never comes...it's like she just keeps dismissing it.



Always Learning said:


> Dude, you blew your opportunity. when she made the comment about stripping naked you should have jumped all over that. Staying quiet reinforced to her that her need for affection was more important for your need for sex.
> 
> You needed to tell her that yes that is exactly what I need from you. I can do all of those other things for my self. I know you do them lovingly and I appreciate that but they mean little compared to me compared to a loving passionate physically fulfilling sex life.
> 
> Then explain to her that if she can't live in an unaffectionate marriage why would she expect you to live an a sexless marriage. Explain that sharing all that affection with her just makes your desire for a sexual relationship greater. To you love affection and sex are all intertwined into one feeling. Remove one part and the whole thing will unravel.


 @Always Learning Yes, you're right I have to stop letting her make me think that I'm the bad guy because I just enjoy having sex with my wife. I need to start saying that "yes, my love will fade from you if we are not having sex because your love would too if you were not getting any affection".

She has also said to me is, you don't require much as long as I give you sex you are happy. I'm like yes, that intimate bond I have with my wife is one of my biggest requirements; besides that I'm a very easy laid back guy; so it's hard for me that she says & knows exactly what I need but still does nothing.


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## Cecezakat (Jun 20, 2015)

ptomczyk11 said:


> 1. Women: Do you sexually desire your husbands? Do you ever initiate sex with your husband?


Yes I sexually desire my husband. Does it mean that kissing and cuddling put sex on my mind? Not usually. Does it mean that I think about sex a lot? Far less than he thinks about sex. Yes, I do initiate sex with my husband, but it wasn't always like that. That came over time as I grew more confident sexually. 

If your wife's issue is because she feels depressed when she feels fat, then I can give you some perspective on that. My self esteem and my body image were rock bottom when I met my husband. When I did feel sexual desires, masturbation seemed safer and less scary because I didn't have to see myself, or think about how someone else is looking at me. If I did have to see myself or think about how I must be looking to him then it would kill my libido in the moment. But those basic sexual desires are still there, as evidenced by the desire to masturbate. 

Your wife may have this kind of a mental block. If she is able to get depressed over feeling fat (as I can too), then I bet she can become instantly turned off by seeing herself or having to be intimate with you (because of her negative view of herself, not because of you). Ask her questions more along this line and about her past sexual experiences (if any) to find out whether this problem is truly because of her negative self image or if she actually doesn't want sex with you in particular. 

That being said, if her problem is her body image she still has to be willing to acknowledge that she is causing a problem, that sex is important in a marriage, and should be open to working on it. She also needs to have a basic concern for your happiness and satisfaction. 

I had a lot of mental blocks around sex, but I knew I had a problem, I knew sex was important in a marriage, I was open to my husband's suggestions and I cared about how he felt. We have a great sex life, my mental block is gone, and I have an improved self image.

Ask more questions, like why exactly is masturbating easier and faster? Why do you like hugs better? Is it because you don't have to look at your body and you are repulsed by your body? Does your own body turn you off from sex?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

ptomczyk11 said:


> My wife is big on affection, she loves to cuddle, hug, kiss, etc.


It sounds like non-sexual intimacy is one of her needs. If she can't meet your need, you shouldn't meet her needs.

And you don't want "sex". Would you accept corpse or starfish sex from her? No you wouldn't. You want "an intimate, fulfilling sexual relationship" with her... the counterpart to monogamy. You can't have one without the other.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

I was once in a relationship where it was "easier" to masturbate than have sex with my partner. It was easier and more satisfying because I was not enjoying the sex, and was not satisfied afterward. In a relationship with good sex, I'd much rather do him than myself.

This may not apply to you, but it jumped out at me from your description of her thoughts on masturbation. Give it some thought.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Chris Taylor said:


> It sounds like non-sexual intimacy is one of her needs. If she can't meet your need, you shouldn't meet her needs.
> 
> And you don't want "sex". Would you accept corpse or starfish sex from her? No you wouldn't. You want "an intimate, fulfilling sexual relationship" with her... the counterpart to monogamy. You can't have one without the other.


 @Chris Taylor Yes, exactly. In the past, when I was always initiating sex there would be times where she would say "do we have to, can't we just cuddle on the couch", and that already would start getting under my skin because then I would say "forget it" and she would be like "no, no we can do it". 

But going back to your reply, it isn't just about the "sex", it's more important to me knowing that she enjoys it and wants it as well and doesn't make it feel like I'm bothering her or it's a chore to her.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Outside Perspective:
> 
> 1. Women: Do you sexually desire your husbands? Do you ever initiate sex with your husband?
> 
> 2. Men: Does you wife find you sexually desirable? Does she often initiate sex with you?



Keep in mind that what and how you find your wife desirable, such as a sexy figure and long hair, may not translate into her vocabulary of sexuality. So if you ask is my body sexy and do you like my hair, she may very well think to herself, "not really" and conclude that she just does not lust for you. You get your feelings hurt. 

You have to find out what things are in her sexual vocabulary that turn her onto you. It could be things like the way you smell after you shower and put on some cologne, or when someone in the family tries to humiliate her but you stand up for her honor. In contrast if your wife rained down hell on your dad for talking sh!t about you, you'd probably get upset and have to explain to her that men kind of enjoy hazing each other as a way to bond and her reacting that way just made you look like a püssy. Then she gets her feelings hurt thinking you do not want her to care about you getting ridiculed. 

So the *PERSPECTIVE* and *CONTEXT* is what you need to think about when it comes to you wife being turned onto you. Male and female sexuality, while similar, function in context with the sexual languages that have been taught to them. Men and women that grow up in the same family are often taught different languages from their parents, as is obvious by visiting the toy isle in any store. Boys grow up playing with boy stuff and girls grow up playing with girl stuff, and it shapes their personalities and sexuality in fairly profound ways.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> @Holdingontoit Great point above, this is "exactly" how I feel lately when I bring up sex. Obviously, this isn't the first time I've said something to her about "how important sex is to me" but the way you described it above is exactly how I feel once she is done speaking her peace. She makes me feel like I'm a bad husband because I enjoy and want to have as much sex as possible with my wife.
> 
> She has said I know guys need sex more than girls and if they don't get it that can lead them to cheating. The part that kills me is she is smart and she is fully aware of how important sex is to me, but she doesn't do anything different. It's always me buying her flowers, writing cute/loving notes, etc. trying to be affectionate with her; hoping that she will eventually put my needs first and be more intimate but that day never comes...it's like she just keeps dismissing it.
> 
> ...


Don't let her separate sex from your emotional needs. It looks like she does not make an emotional connection with sex. Keep reinforcing that it is not just sex you want with HER. If sex was all you were after you would have likely left when it stopped. The proof that it is the main way you make your connection with HER is that you are still there trying.

You should look into doing the 5 Love languages test with and look into the book, His needs Her Needs. Do this to show her that you are different than her and your need to feel loved and sexually desired is real and should be as important to her as her need for affection is to you.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

You are talking past each other. You both need to work though the book Five Love Languages. She is talking in her Love Language of Acts of Services. She does all these things that would make her feel loved. Then she gets angry and frustrated when they do not cause you to feel loved. In response, you ask her to do the things that would help you feel loved (Sex), and she replies "why would I do any of that crap when I could give you the Acts of Service that are so much more valuable?"

And the common analogy to use when she says you ONLY want sex is: it is like air. When there is enough available you don't think much about it. When you aren't getting enough, it is all you think about. It is not the only thing I want from you. But when I am not getting enough it is hard to notice anything else. Help me get enough that we can focus more time and attention on other things.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> She goes on to say that it's not just me, all of my friends and most girls feel the same way about sex. And again, I'm like I know this is not a problem unique to only us, hence TAM forum, but I'm not concerned with how your friends handle sex with their husbands or how other girls feel...I'm trying to tell you what makes me happy.


Not true at all.

Many girls/women enjoy a full and active sex life with their partner. The stereotype that men are always up for it and women never interested can be blown away by reading just a few threads on this board.

There are just as many the other way around and they are just as unhappy, possibly even more so.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

norajane said:


> Maybe you could hear what she is telling you. She's concluded that NOTHING she does as a wife matters in the least bit to you, just sex.
> 
> She's not feeling loved and isn't getting emotional intimacy from sex. And, it's possible she isn't getting anything from it physically, either, like orgasms. So she has little interest in "doing it for you" because she doesn't feel that you appreciate anything else she does for you as a wife.
> 
> ...


 @norajane The things she does *"as a wife"*are things that I greatly appreciate and I thank her for doing those things and I help her out as much as I can. I also have my own set of responsibilities* "as a husband"* that I do for her (e.g. yard work, anything to do with the house, garbage, buy her gifts too, etc.), but the fact that remains is all those things that she does *"as a wife"* I'm willing and able to do myself. Of course I appreciate everything she does, but no matter how many *"as a husband"* things I do for her if I *stopped being affectionate with her* everything else I've done would not matter to her, she just wants affection.

It's just been a declining slippery slope because we talk about the same thing *"affection vs sex"* and it's a cycle that doesn't seem to be getting resolved because we are not meeting each others *primary fundamental needs*.

We've been married for 3 years but dated for 5 years. We are in our early 30s, and no kids mainly because we don't have confidence in each other as a *married couple* because of this recurring issue we are going through. This brings something up that also is disheartening to me, she says that she hates the fact that if we ever have kids that I will be more affectionate/loving towards our kids and it will take away from the affection I give her and that is something that angers her. 

Lately, we definitely have slacked off on the *romantic dating aspect*. I tell her all the time that what bothers me the most is the lack of respect I feel from her, she's not disrespectful to me verbally or anything. But how it doesn't seem like she cares about anything I'm saying, how she's always on her phone. If we rent a movie together she's texting away with her friends instead of curled up in my arms watching and being interested in the movie.

There was time when I would talk and I would have her undivided attention and she would be so vested in the conversation. It made me feel good because I felt how interested she was with me and genuinely cared about what I was saying; now it feels like when I talk it's like talking to the wall. I actually have more stimulating conversations with her friends because they actual "ask questions" and seem interested in what we are talking about.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Thank you for that additional background. I am more convinced that ever that you will NEVER solve your affection v sex issue until your relationship is on more solid footing. 

The sex issue is a symptom of the other problems in your relationship, and it won't be resolved in a vacuum...nothing is going to make her do a 180 and start jumping on you, and nothing is going to make you feel affectionate toward her at this point until the overall marriage is healthier.

Neither of you are certain enough in your marriage and in each other to have children. That should tell you that you have a lot of issues, not just sex. You have to address those openly, honestly, and do hard work together to get to a place where you can really be open intimately and sexually.

I would start with marriage counseling. I don't think you two will be able to do much more than go in circles just talking about the same things over and over with each other.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

ptomczyk11 said:


> @norajane The things she does *"as a wife"*are things that I greatly appreciate and I thank her for doing those things and I help her out as much as I can. I also have my own set of responsibilities* "as a husband"* that I do for her (e.g. yard work, anything to do with the house, garbage, buy her gifts too, etc.), but the fact that remains is all those things that she does *"as a wife"* I'm willing and able to do myself. Of course I appreciate everything she does, but no matter how many *"as a husband"* things I do for her if I *stopped being affectionate with her* everything else I've done would not matter to her, she just wants affection.
> 
> It's just been a declining slippery slope because we talk about the same thing *"affection vs sex"* and it's a cycle that doesn't seem to be getting resolved because we are not meeting each others *primary fundamental needs*.
> 
> ...


There are so many red flags on the field that I can't see the grass. 

She needs some IC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm reluctant to throw this in. 

Sure there may be many things wrong with this marriage, but ignoring the sex problem and trying to fix the marriage without addressing that problem will not work. I'm no therapist but I do know this when you are living at a sex level significantly under your drive level (sexless), every question is about sex, every problem is about sex. Ask me what I want for dinner, you got it SEX! 

If you invest in months and months of therapy before addressing the sex issue, you will be divorced before you get a good start.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm reluctant to throw this in.
> 
> Sure there may be many things wrong with this marriage, but ignoring the sex problem and trying to fix the marriage without addressing that problem will not work. I'm no therapist but I do know this when you are living at a sex level significantly under your drive level (sexless), every question is about sex, every problem is about sex. Ask me what I want for dinner, you got it SEX!
> 
> If you invest in months and months of therapy before addressing the sex issue, you will be divorced before you get a good start.


That's why I suggested counseling. She is as deeply and firmly entrenched in "I won't touch you with a 10 foot pole as long as all you want is SEX" as he is in "Sex for dinner!" Every time he says Sex for dinner! she wants to throw up rather than have sex. It's gotten to that point. No one is budging - their feelings are opposed and neither will be the first to bend.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

ptomczyk11 said:


> My wife is big on affection, she loves to cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. which I enjoy as well. The issue is when she does this I naturally get turned on and want to be intimate with her. Lately, I've stopped initiating sex when we show affection and we do the cuddle, hug, kiss, etc. that she loves.
> 
> We have had the sex talk before and she is fully aware of my higher sex drive and how I would love if we could strive for at least 1 - 2 times a week for sex; which I believe is completely doable.
> 
> ...



Mrs.CuddleBug likes how I've taken care of myself and yes she does initiate sex with me, but only about 1x month because she is LD conservative and extremely insecure due to her body but not willing to do something serious about it.

Mrs.CuddleBug loves it when I lay on the couch with her, she cuddle up on me to one side, my arm around her, under the blanket together, her hand on my chest to feel my heart beat and of course my man heat. This puts her out for a nap and she wakes up refreshed and happy. Plus when I get off the couch first, she stay and uses my area for more heat. She could do this almost everyday but do I get physical intimacy and sex almost everyday? No.

I consider myself in an almost sexless marriage as well. Sex 1x month is basically nothing in my books.

When getting married, hubby and wifee are to take care of each others needs as their own. If wifee needs more cuddling and romance, she gets this from her man. If hubby needs more physicality and sex, he gets this from her. Marriage is 50 / 50.

LD spouses see nothing wrong with the minimal amount of sex. They are happy with it, getting their needs met, so why change and try to take care of their spouses needs? They don't.

Its a LD / HD dynamic. LD is more than happy having sex 1x month. HD needs sex almost every day and multiple times. Compromise would be having sex 3x week, but that never happens and its back to 1x month.

My solution was buy myself a pocket p$ssy and I get it out of my system when I'm really in the mood. No initiating for sex because it usually never happens. If the LD spouses hate this, then they have to make a real effort and get a sex drive. Can't have it both ways.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

ptomczyk11 said:


> I tell her all the time that what bothers me the most is the lack of respect I feel from her, she's not disrespectful to me verbally or anything. But how it doesn't seem like she cares about anything I'm saying, how *she's always on her phone.* If we rent a movie together *she's texting away with her friends* instead of curled up in my arms watching and being interested in the movie.


Yeah, ptom, I think you need to change the title of the thread- add "with ME" to the end of it.

Then let's discuss why you are married to a woman who doesn't love you. I mean, I know you love her and everything, but it's pretty clear that your feelings are not reciprocated.

You might ought to spend some time and figure out how to deal with that problem, man.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

There's only one magic pill. Everything else is just moving deck chairs on the titanic. A waste of time. When you've wasted all the time you can and tried all the ideas and counseling a few times and finally give up and leave her, she'll wake up. But by then you won't care. Taking the long way will have destroyed your love.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i have one piece of advice that i give to people in your situation OP:
treat her love language the exact same way she treats yours, and be blatantly honest about it, and why you are doing it. 

in other words, tell her that she is not getting any non sexual intimacy because you aren't getting any sexual intimacy. when she makes excuses about how much effort it takes, tell her that your not going to waste your time whining about it but will instead take HER strategy of avoiding what she doesn't want to put effort into. since it frustrates you to get turned on by the cuddles but then get left hanging, you deem it too much effort, the same way she deems sex too much effort to bother with. 

she will either wake up and start putting some effort into her marriage or you will eventually realize that your wife has no intention of making you feel loved and you will move on. 


think about it like this: half the people in the world have water, the other half has food. they both need what the other has. does it make sense to keep giving your half to someone who refuses to give you theirs? eventually, one of you dies of hunger or thirst. 

F*** that nonsense.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

People who desire affection without sex should consider getting a dog instead of a spouse. Dogs are very affectionate, don't give two cents for your body image, and if you get them fixed they won't even hump your leg. There's no need to drag a functional sexual human into your sexless world and trap them there.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> I'm reluctant to throw this in.
> 
> Sure there may be many things wrong with this marriage, but ignoring the sex problem and trying to fix the marriage without addressing that problem will not work. I'm no therapist but I do know this when you are living at a sex level significantly under your drive level (sexless), every question is about sex, every problem is about sex. Ask me what I want for dinner, you got it SEX!
> 
> If you invest in months and months of therapy before addressing the sex issue, you will be divorced before you get a good start.


I completely agree, because your wife's poor sexual performance seems to be rooted in selfishness. She can be snuggling up to you, getting her needs met, and then blow off your sexual needs by saying "I don't need it"? That is a huge problem.

Then, she is sending signs that she will be offended if any future kids get more affection than she does. IOW, she expects to be at the top of your list not just now but consistently, without being willing to work to meet your needs.

Honestly, her standards are out of line. It is not uncommon for women to base money or attention requirements from their partners based on a theoretical concept of what the guy should be able to provide, not based on what the woman herself is bringing to the table. Your wife's expectation of you should be based on how much effort she puts into meeting your needs (IOW, it should be low). And then she says she's not attracted to you, just like that? Amazing.

I caution men in this situation their wives cannot control their base sex drive. They need to accept frequent and enthusiastic sex based on regard for the relationship and love for each other. I don't think this is happening, but you need to make sure you aren't rejecting efforts she makes at genuine, loving sex.

You need to force the issue. You inform her that the huge imbalance between the time she has invested in her (by you) and the time she gives back ends now. You prefer she step up her effort but if not you will dial yours back. You should do MC so she can understand how successful marriages work in this regard, and possibly IC for her if she cannot manage to treat others as her equal.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> And the common analogy to use when she says you ONLY want sex is: it is like air. When there is enough available you don't think much about it. When you aren't getting enough, it is all you think about. It is not the only thing I want from you. But when I am not getting enough it is hard to notice anything else. Help me get enough that we can focus more time and attention on other things.


 @Holdingontoit Great analogy...this is exactly how I feel!



CuddleBug said:


> My solution was buy myself a pocket p$ssy and I get it out of my system when I'm really in the mood. No initiating for sex because it usually never happens. If the LD spouses hate this, then they have to make a real effort and get a sex drive. Can't have it both ways.


 @CuddleBug This pocket p$ssy definitely seems like a good alternative.  If she found out that I bought this I can already predict what she will say; "I can't believe you bought that, do you really need that". And going back to what you said "she can't have it both ways", either she starts recognizing and doing something about my needs or else it's the alternative...haha. 



As'laDain said:


> i have one piece of advice that i give to people in your situation OP:
> treat her love language the exact same way she treats yours, and be blatantly honest about it, and why you are doing it.
> 
> in other words, tell her that she is not getting any non sexual intimacy because you aren't getting any sexual intimacy. when she makes excuses about how much effort it takes, tell her that your not going to waste your time whining about it but will instead take HER strategy of avoiding what she doesn't want to put effort into. since it frustrates you to get turned on by the cuddles but then get left hanging, you deem it too much effort, the same way she deems sex too much effort to bother with.
> ...


 @As'laDain Lately that's how it's been, I've stopped going out of my way by giving her affection. No matter how often or how long I give her affection I never get the "jump my bones" type of response from her that I would love and that's disappointing. 



unbelievable said:


> People who desire affection without sex should consider getting a dog instead of a spouse. Dogs are very affectionate, don't give two cents for your body image, and if you get them fixed they won't even hump your leg. There's no need to drag a functional sexual human into your sexless world and trap them there.


 @unbelievable Haha...very true, I should just get her a dog. 



DTO said:


> I completely agree, because your wife's poor sexual performance seems to be rooted in selfishness. She can be snuggling up to you, getting her needs met, and then blow off your sexual needs by saying "I don't need it"? That is a huge problem.
> 
> Then, she is sending signs that she will be offended if any future kids get more affection than she does. IOW, she expects to be at the top of your list not just now but consistently, without being willing to work to meet your needs.
> 
> ...


 @DTO Yes, I've said in the past that she can be "selfish" in her ways sometimes; but that talk did not go well...haha. 

At the beginning of our relationship I always saw the nice and overly helpful person; which I loved about her. But years down the road I now see this was all a show and that it's not 100% genuine. She always has something negative to say or complains about doing things with her family/friends, but then in front of their face she puts on that nice and "oh course I'll help you, it's nothing, don't worry about it" face when 10 minutes before she was complaining about even doing it. I feel like she tricked me into thinking that she was this genuinely "selfless" person.

I enjoy doing things for other people and helping them out, I never complain or see it as an inconvenience...I'm just very easy going. And I hate how when I help my family out with things she goes on to say "I hate how your family takes advantage of you", when that thought never even crosses my mind and is something I don't agree with her about. 

I always feel like she thinks her family relationship is better than the one I have with my family; which I find humorous. Yeah, her family is more talkative to each other and they constantly say "I love you" to each other, but she gets anxiety if she spends too much time with them because they get on her nerves and she just wants to leave. My family is the complete opposite, but I can spend months with my family and we never get on each others nerve; we just have a good time together.

She has mention to me before "nothing bothers you, you never complain about anything", and I feel like she views this as something negative. I do complain about things but not to the extent that she does; I always try to see the positive in the "not so great" situations.

For example, currently her family is temporarily staying with us. I haven't complained once about them being at our house because that will definitely not help the situation, and because they don't really bother me and this is what families usually do for each other. So she comes up to me and says "I'm sorry they are still here", to which my response is "don't worry about it, it's fine...i'm ok with it". To which she then says "aren't you getting sick of them being here, I don't know how much longer I can handle this". I just don't see it that way, I just hope that if it was my family that had to temporarily stay with me I wouldn't hear her complaining about it all the time and asking me when they will be leaving...but sadly I can definitely see her doing this if it was the other way around.

She does have high standards and is always trying to mold me into the husband that she wants instead of accepting me for who I am. Instead of doing things that meets my needs, she instead takes the approach of changing me to meet her needs. I want to meet her needs but resentment starts to build in me when I turn into a "teddy bear" with nothing in return. 

She can also be controlling at times and going back to how I don't feel respected from her, to give you an example, she will ask me a question about the house; something I definitely know more about than her. And I love when she asks for my opinion because I like to help her out. However, I then provide my answer and she's like "well, don't you think we should do this instead?" then proceeds to say "I think I'm going to do this"...then to my response is "ok, do whatever you want". If she is going to ask my opinion about house/car things that I know more about than her, I would hope she would respect my answer and trust me.

I just hate how much control she has over sex being the LD one. I also think she's delusional at times because she will say "I initiate sex"; which is humorous. I can count in 1 hand how many times she has ever initiated sex; I just don't think she realizes how she rarely initiates sex, and the only reason we do ever have sex "ever" is because of me constantly trying. The sad part is that when we do have sex we have a great time and I believe she enjoys it as much as I do, but I all I can think about is okay we had sex today so know I'll have to wait another 4+ weeks, if I'm lucky, to have sex again...it's disappointing. 

Like it has been said on this post, I did not get married to be in a monogamous celibate relationship and to be her affectionate dog that has been neutered. And when she says I just don't have a high sex drive or need it as bad as you, I can say well I don't have a high affectionate drive or need it as bad as you; so maybe we should look into getting a dog. 

I've taken the road of trying to kick start the cycle and being affectionate with her to meet the most "air-like" need she has, but my "air-like" need still does not get met because she says that just because you do this for a couple months doesn't wipe out the years of non-affection I felt from you. Where I'm like the years of non-affection you felt from me was the effect of the lack of intimacy I felt from you for years. 

Is there a way I can make her see how important the "intimacy" is to me? Should I tell her lets start fresh and pretend that we are dating again and lets forget about how "both of us" were not meeting each other's most "air-like" needs and lets try being "selfless" and start meeting the other person's needs first?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Is there a way I can make her see how important the "intimacy" is to me? Should I tell her lets start fresh and pretend that we are dating again and lets forget about how "both of us" were not meeting each other's most "air-like" needs and lets try being "selfless" and start meeting the other person's needs first?


You can ask for a complete relationship reset. 

But easier said than done with no empathy, no concrete plan in place and no commitment from her for you both to get your needs met.

She doesn't sound like a person that cares to consider your POV much. Doesn't bode well IMO.

Have you considered that she might be high on the NPD spectrum?


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

You seem stuck on the idea that she should give you sex in exchange for affection. But from the way you describe her, she sounds like the "acts of service" type. Just because she likes affection, doesn't mean it's her primary need or that it should make her want sex.

Many of your posts make it sound like you're putting pesos into a US vending machine, and wondering why it's not giving you a soda.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

More important than whether the machine takes pesos or dollars is whether it is a drink vending machine or a snack vending machine. If you want a drink, working in Mexico to earn pesos and then depositing the pesos in the snack vending machine is not going to get you what you want no matter how many pesos you deposit into the machine. Of course, if you wife likes pesos she may never willingly admit she is a snack machine.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It seems like a good time to get out of the vending business and into currency exchange services.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"Is there a way I can make her see how important the "intimacy" is to me?"

Reading divorce papers might do it.

The sight of you emptiness where you and your stuff used to be might do it.

The sight of you content and happy with someone else. 

It may not be so much an issue of her not understanding how important intimacy is for you but of not caring or not caring enough.
My wife doesn't have to explain why her requests are important to her. She's important to me, so her happiness is important to me. 
Your problem isn't your choice of words but your choice of people.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

I'm going to cut to the chase OP. Your wife is SELFISH as fvck. DO NOT impregnate her whatever you do.

She can't find 10 mins to bang you more than once every few months but finds plenty of time to rub one out herself when needed?

Then on top of that expects you to be her fvcking cuddily teddy bear. Oh hell no man.... Stop that sh!t immediately.

1-2 times a week is hardly HD. In fact, that's average. If you can't get average frequency sex from this women divorce her.

No man should tolerate this garbage. Hit the gym, diet, 180, start planning your exit. Ultimatum time.

You have NEEDS and you must express to her in no uncertain terms she either starts meeting those needs or you will find someone who will.

Trust me dude plenty of horny women out there. This isn't complicated. She wants her needs meet then she needs to meet yours.

She just wants hers. Personally I'd go for the divorce anyway but I'm sure you "love her" so give her the ultimatum then follow through.

This is all assuming there is no one else. I have my doubts there isn't.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

intheory said:


> So you've been together for 5 years total.
> 
> When you both refer to *years* of not getting either affection or sex; what do you mean?
> 
> 5 years is not that long. If, say, this has been going on for 3 of those years; that is a bad, bad sign.


I read that has 3 years married plus 5 years dating so 8 years. 

Sounds like the 7 year itch to me. EA at best, probably worse.

OP ask her, "Whose the other guy? Before you answer, I already know so if you lie to me and say no one I'm filing for divorce today." 

Watch her fold like a deck of cards....


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ptomczyk11 said:


> @Holdingontoit Great analogy...this is exactly how I feel!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


don't just passively withdraw. simply not going out of your way doesn't get the message across. cut off ALL intimacy. and have the balls to look her in the eye and tell her that you are withholding all non sexual intimacy from her BECAUSE she withholds all sexual intimacy from you. if she throws the "but we DO have sex" argument, acquiesce. tell her she is right, so she will get cuddles once a month or less, cuz that's fair. tell her if she wants more, she can step up the sexual intimacy.

now here is the hard part that most people fvck up... if they finally get their spouse to start paying attention to their needs, they often pull some magic trick in their own mind that makes their spouses new efforts turn into another object of resentment. their minds usually run a script that goes something like this: "i cant believe i have to resort to this, my spouse doesn't love me/is making me be someone i dont want to be" etc.

if that is you, dont even bother. just divorce. in other words, dont try and affect a change unless you are willing to let go of your resentment once the change starts to actually happen.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> I read that has 3 years married plus 5 years dating so 8 years.
> 
> Sounds like the 7 year itch to me. EA at best, probably worse.
> 
> ...


if i had done that when i was in the OPs situation, i would have either made myself look like a complete ass or i would be divorced. 

i wouldn't suggest this unless there is hard evidence of an actual affair. lack of respect is breeding grounds for an affair, but doesn't mean there actually is one.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> if i had done that when i was in the OPs situation, i would have either made myself look like a complete ass or i would be divorced.


The only one who looks like an ass is the one denying their spouse sex because it's "too much work" while simultaneously masturbating whenever they feel the need.

He's in this position because he's been too timid to begin with. At this point, divorce would be a blessing. He has nothing to lose except a selfish crappy spouse.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> I'm going to cut to the chase OP. Your wife is SELFISH as fvck. DO NOT impregnate her whatever you do.


Upsized for truth!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> The only one who looks like an ass is the one denying their spouse sex because it's "too much work" while simultaneously masturbating whenever they feel the need.
> 
> He's in this position because he's been too timid to begin with. At this point, divorce would be a blessing. He has nothing to lose except a selfish crappy spouse.


yeah, his wife is being selfish and crappy. but accusing her of cheating, by stating that he will divorce her unless she fesses up to it, is a pretty lame way to go about divorcing her. unless the goal is not divorce? maybe she is cheating. that would probably lead to divorce. maybe she isn't cheating and is just acting selfishly, in which case she would have to lie and make up some fake affair partner to stay married, or call OP on his bluff, so that he can either divorce her on a pretty weak accusation, or eat his words and admit that he doesn't actually mean what he says. which doesn't just make him look weak, but would also define him as such.

lame.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

As'laDain said:


> yeah, his wife is being selfish and crappy. but accusing her of cheating, by stating that he will divorce her unless she fesses up to it, is a pretty lame way to go about divorcing her. unless the goal is not divorce? maybe she is cheating. that would probably lead to divorce. maybe she isn't cheating and is just acting selfishly, in which case she would have to lie and make up some fake affair partner to stay married, or call OP on his bluff, so that he can either divorce her on a pretty weak accusation, or eat his words and admit that he doesn't actually mean what he says. which doesn't just make him look weak, but would also define him as such.
> 
> lame.


So worst case, she's not cheating. He serves her divorce papers. This scares the crap out of her. She's realizes what a horrible person she's been because her behavior is so deplorable her husband believed it was cheating. Finally getting it through her thick skull she decides to fvck this guy a few days a week cause she doesn't want to lose him.

Or she says, "she you in court I won't have sex with you"

Or she says, "How did you know I was cheating?"

I see no downside. Divorce is a win, getting fvcked more is a win. The only loss is the status quo.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

I've been reading the "Sex Starved Marriage" book and it's crazy how everything she talks about is exactly how I've been feeling towards a lack of intimacy. However, trying to make my wife understand this is easier said than done.

We had a brief discussion today that started off about her brother and how he has been pretty rude to his wife lately with blunt comments in terms of what she can or cannot eat because she just got pregnant. Things that I would never say to my wife because I know they are wrong and I just wouldn't want to make her feel bad, especially when it comes to a women's weight while pregnant. She 100% agreed that her brother's actions were out of line, but the thing with her brother's / sister-in-law's relationship is she is head over heals for him and has always chased him so she lets a lot of this slide. On top of this her brother does absolutely nothing to ever help his wife out with chores; she does everything and I mean everything while he's sitting down on the couch.

Now this got transitioned to my wife and I talking about our relationship, I said I would never talk to you that way and especially if you were pregnant and I said I also try to help you as much as I can with anything you do not like how your brother does nothing. This is where she got defensive and said you can't think you're the best husband in the world just because you help me with things. My brother is not right in saying those things but he also showers her with affection/love the thing I keep on asking you for.

Now I don't know what her brother's sex life is with his wife, but the fact that she said this to me annoyed me. So it's okay for your brother to tell his wife that she can't eat this because she is going to get fat and be unfit to carry his child but then if he says "I love you" and gives her a hug and shows her affection later...then whatever he said before is like he never said it at all

I don't agree with this type of thinking, I can't possibly say those things to my wife and then show her affection and everything is okay again. I wouldn't even forgive myself for saying those things let alone have my wife be okay with it after some affection afterwards. 

She went on to say that of course I don't want you to say those rude things to me and I appreciate it that you don't, but I'm just looking for more affection from you. I believe the lack of affection from my end is definitely contributed to the lack of intimacy and not feeling desired by my wife at all. 

I feel like we are on totally different sides of the spectrum; she needs an abundance of affection/emotion to feel good about herself, so I always find the affection I do give her is never enough. Just like how I feel the zero sexual desire I receive from her is not enough to make me happy; so in turn this makes me reluctant to give more affection because my sexual drive is being stomped on.

I don't know what do to anymore; should I just shower her with love, affection, hugs, kisses, romance, etc. without it leading to sex and hopefully this will lead to a spark in our sex life? Or maybe she will finally have her "love tank" filled and be willing to be more sexually attracted to me and maybe initiate sex?

She always says that I've changed and the affection from me was not the same after a couple of years, but I also feel I'm not the one to take full blame. I'm sure when the affection slowed down from my end it's when I started to get rejected more and more from her...so I feel we are both equally to blame for where we are now.

I just want to be able to figure out a way to kick start the affectionate/intimacy cycle again and go back to how it use to be.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sorry. None of that will work until she knows for sure you're leaving. No matter what you do, if you stay, nothing will change. Whoever wants the other more loses. Same is true in her brothers marriage.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

I know they say the grass is not always greener on the other side. I do love her, I know she's not perfect; who really is, but sometimes I feel like am I the ass for not being able to fully show her all the affection that she needs because of the lack of intimacy I'm feeling?

Like I've mentioned to her in the past, being intimate is a lot more to me than just sex. I feel a closer emotional bond with her and in turn allows me to show her more genuine affection because I feel a stronger connection. The lack of sex just drives me farther away from her and I don't feel as close to her. She has said the same thing to me, that since without the close affectionate connection it makes her less likely to want to have sex with me because she doesn't feel the emotional bond with me; which I can understand because it's the same way I'm feeling but from the other end.

It definitely is a catch-22 scenario, it feels like we are at a stalemate. 

I will try to kick start this cycle and show her affection as much as I can without intimacy, even though it is definitely going to be harder for me to feel that close emotional bond with her. 

I totally connect with this quote from the "Sex Starved Marriage" book, "I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that a marriage void of sexuality and intimacy is a marriage doomed to fail." She said she would read this book with me which is nice, and I tried to explain to her the "just do it" philosophy she mentions in the book but my wife says that it's hard for her to "just do it" when she does not feel an emotional bond with me. I completely understand, but what I'm scared of is I can be the man and show her affection without being intimate, but I don't know how long I will be able to keep this up without being intimate because I will just end up feeling more depressed if I continue to show her affection and she does not feel the urge to be intimate with me.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It seems like you've shown her plenty of affection, but she has still not wanted sex. Why is it that it's all on you to make the effort, and none on her? If you make an effort to be more affectionate without connecting that to sex, then shouldn't she make an effort to be more sexual at the same time? You can both fake it 'til you make it, if necessary, if you have the same end result in mind. However, I suspect that even if you provide unlimited, unconditional affection, something will always prevent her from wanting to have sex with you.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> However, I suspect that even if you provide unlimited, unconditional affection, something will always prevent her from wanting to have sex with you.


:iagree:

And when you have reached your limit, it will be time for the conversation.

The one where you tell her that you cannot continue down this sexless road. Sex is something you need, like air, and you are unwilling to go on without it. That you want to fulfill her needs but your needs matter just as much as hers. 

Asking for loads of affection with no sex is in your mind ****teasing, it is selfish and unhealthy for you and the marriage. All it does is make you depressed, angry and resentful.

If she does not love you enough to be a willing and engaged partner on a regular basis, then she is under no obligation to provide any sex whatsoever going forward and you won't ask for it. 

You didn't sign up for marriage with her to be celibate, so if that is what she wants, then you will go find sex with some other willing and enthusiastic partner and stop bothering her with it. 

You will try to continue to try to meet her needs, but as you become connected with someone else sexually you doubt that you will stay interested in doing that for her for long. Ultimately maybe the marriage will last, maybe it won't...probably not. 

Then sit back and wait. See what she does with that info.


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## Vorlon (Sep 13, 2012)

OP I feel absolutely terrible for you but I feel you are just being too nice. You believe and your wife reinforces the message that you have to earn enough good credits to have sex. Doesn't that make you feel like a child. Be good for mommy and she will love you. Meanwhile do what mommy says like a good boy. 

I have read through your comments and I really get the sense that you have created a mother & child relationship or worse just cuddle buddies instead of a husband and wife. It lacks the masculine/feminine polarity. It lacks the natural attraction a woman feels for her man. 

Instead she is making it more like a mother/son dynamic "Be good, do what I say and give mommy lots of hugs and kisses. Then mommy will love you to bits". She just doesn't feel that sexual attraction to you that you have every right to desire. 

I really believe you need to read " No More Mister Nice Guy". If your not familiar with it then its not about being a bad person its about being a man. Being straight forward and direct. Its about how to overcome being too nice. Its about having enough self-respect to not stand for poor treatment. Its about expecting and acting on what you want and need. Its about you! Its a short read and more than worth it. It really helped save my marriage. You can read it online. 

Remember this people will treat you exactly as you allow them to treat you. We actually train people how to treat us. They are under no obligation to treat you differently then you allow them too. You keep expecting or thinking your wife would change if she just could understand your feelings. If you could just say the right words then she would give you what you want. 

Sorry it doesn't work that way. She already knows exactly how you feel. She knows exactly what you want. She even knows exactly what you need. The problem is she does not want, need or feel the way you do! Your needs are not more important than hers. So she will never change because to her you and your life with her are not worth it. She doesn't fear the consequence because she has never faced any. She doesn't fear losing you because she knows you love her too much to leave. So what real incentive does she have to change and do you really want her to do it out of obligation or fear. No you want her to love you like you love her. I'm truly sorry to tell you this but that is not going to happen. 

I know this hurts and I know what it is to have to but up with bad behavior for the sake of my marriage. But let me tell you this honestly. You can only change yourself. You can not control or change your wife. She is a full grown adult and makes her own choices. Good or bad you have no control over them. Life is about making choices and living with the consequences of those choices. 

Finally, you have every right to expect your spouse to desire you. To want to make love to you and to respond to you. After nearly 30 years of marriage and a house full of adult children we still make love at lease 2x per week. We have a our challenges, age, health, menopause, low testosterone, lack of alone time, stress, worry, body image, etc....But we love each other and we find a way to meet the others needs. It takes two people working extremely hard to meet the others needs to stay married for any length of time. So it can be done but you need two people committed to making it work.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

ptomczyk11 said:


> I know they say the grass is not always greener on the other side. .


I agree it is impossible to know if the grass is greener elsewhere and it could also be worse, but you do know the state of the grass where you are, and it is shows no sign of turning green.

Compounding the problem is the fact that your current situation makes you feel much less likely to find greener grass in the future.


Even if you make any progress right now, it will be entirely undone if you have any children. You will then have your resentment and rejection to deal with plus all the stress of being a new parent.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Lionelhutz said:


> I agree it is impossible to know if the grass is greener elsewhere and it could also be worse, but you do know the state of the grass where you are, and it is shows no sign of turning green.
> 
> Compounding the problem is the fact that your current situation makes you feel much less likely to find greener grass in the future.
> 
> ...


You've heard it here about a dozen times. I wrote about it on my site (see articles about dead bedrooms and the reboot). Your current course of action will always get you the same result. As a nice guy your standard programming says "must be nicer.. more loving.. then get sex", and your wife even reinforces this.. because she knows that's what you're all about. She's just placating you. Appealing to your good side in hopes that it makes you go away.

She's just not into you anymore. Not in THAT way. You're her brother. Her roommate. You're that fat kid in high school that won't leave her alone. She's nice enough to you, but if you leaned in for a kiss she would run away like a cheetah and go tell her friends. They would all laugh. Then she would go bang the football player who called her stupid.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Hey OP-- 

this is tough to hear but it is really not that complicated.

billions of people all over the world don't have to work hard and scheme to get laid.

it is abundantly clear that this is a need of yours and she is just not interested.

you are both in your early 30s, you don't have kids. this has been a persistent problem.

it sounds sh-tty, but you are actually lucking out that you are starting to recognize the problem now.

you can split and both of you can find people that you are more compatible with. and your wife might not even lose the opportunity to have children (if that is what she wants).

take a look around. you could spend years beating your head against the wall, get suckered into having a kid or two with her and end up seriously f-cked OR you could save yourself the trouble and find a woman who is actually dying to f-ck you without any begging, pleading or therapy.

seems like a pretty obvious choice on paper but I do realize it is very hard to face facts when you are in this type of situation.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> Hey OP--
> 
> this is tough to hear but it is really not that complicated.
> 
> ...



Ouch!

But yeah....


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Give her a teddy bear and file for D.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Yes keep showering her with love, affection, hugs, kisses, romance, etc. without it leading to sex and hopefully this will lead to a spark in our sex life. If you withhold your affection it will lead to you two growing apart. My husband is LL and since we don't have sex that often I enjoy and need the hugs, kisses and cuddling that we do. That bonds us together. Think about it that way. What kind of marriage would you have if you took away the affection because you are resentful she doesn't want sex as often as you do? You would be roommates and odds are your marriage wouldn't survive.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Not sure if OP is still reading, but I don't think maintaining the non sexual intimacy is going to do it for him, based on his posts.

He already has that and it is likely just increasing his frustration as to what he is missing.

Some people may actually be able to separate out and enjoy the non sexual intimacy from the sexual.

However, many people (particularly men) cant. These people need both or neither.

I think OP is in this boat, which is why he is here.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Vorlon said:


> OP I feel absolutely terrible for you but I feel you are just being too nice. You believe and your wife reinforces the message that you have to earn enough good credits to have sex. Doesn't that make you feel like a child. Be good for mommy and she will love you. Meanwhile do what mommy says like a good boy.
> 
> I have read through your comments and I really get the sense that you have created a mother & child relationship or worse just cuddle buddies instead of a husband and wife. It lacks the masculine/feminine polarity. It lacks the natural attraction a woman feels for her man.
> 
> ...


I consider myself to be very witty, charismatic, funny; so at the beginning of the relationship or when I was single I never had a problem talking to girls, making them laugh, being charming, poking fun but in a cute way, and feeling confident as a man by being more in control of planning dates but of course seeing what she would want to do as well.

I am a nice guy and I've been raised to always treat women with respect and always be helpful to them as best as I can but I do have that flirtatious side that I know women like and definitely separates me from the "nice guy" mold.

Now being with my wife for so long (dating + marriage) I still try to keep that witty/flirtatious/charming aspect in our marriage but it is harder when we are together 24/7/365. I can still make her laugh very easily and that's one of the things I love doing because her laugh is infectious, but I do miss the days when we were dating and I didn't see her that often because it gave us a chance to miss each other.

In the past when we were at a lower point, she mentioned that maybe we should try having some time apart because everything else we were doing wasn't really working. I don't agree that time apart is the solution, especially when we are not at a good place with each other. I told her if we did this it would most likely make me resent her more. I don't think it would have the same effect that it did in the past when we were dating but we were so happy with each other, then that just made me want to see her even more when we weren't together. I feel like time apart now would just be a means to an end.

Lately, I just don't feel that she has admiration towards me as a man and I've told her "I don't think you understand how important it is for me, as a man, to have my wife desire me sexually, not hugs/kisses, but wanting and needing me"; I just don't feel she understands how important that is to me. And it's hard to be the take charge man now planning and doing things because as I learned as our relationship evolved she can be controlling at times...which is a side that I did not notice at the beginning of the relationship (honeymoon period).

I just feel that my love / affection towards her is never enough; it's like she has a hole in her love tank and it just spills on to the ground. She has said to me "that she knows she requires a lot and there are probably other girls out there that don't need as much as she does". Which I agree with her 100%, every person's needs are different and I sometimes think to myself would I be happier with someone who didn't have such high emotional needs. I guess in her defense I could also say would she be happier with someone who was LD and could live on just non-sexual intimacy.



Anon1111 said:


> Hey OP--
> 
> this is tough to hear but it is really not that complicated.
> 
> ...


Yes, I completely agree. Usually choices like this are very simple to state on paper but the follow through is the tough part! hahaha.

It's just sucks because there was a time that she was this girl that enjoyed being intimate with me and she desired me. 

It's just funny how relationships work out, for example, a married couple with a husband complaining about the lack of intimacy and the wife not wanting to be intimate for her own reasons; which most likely are valid. Then these people get divorced and the wife ends up finding a new boyfriend/husband, which she has sex with all the time. 

I see it all the time on social media, people who get divorced seem to find someone new and they seem genuinely happier; I think this is usually what happens. 

If I divorce my wife and end up finding a new girlfriend; of course we will be happy because we are in the same "honeymoon period" I was once in with my ex-wife. The sex will be great and the affection will be great; everyone is happy. And my ex-wife would find a new boyfriend and they would be having a ton of sex, and the part that sucks is that the intimacy that we were lacking now comes so easily to her in a new relationship.

It just sucks that with time, resentment builds, and it just gets harder and harder to fix the intimacy issue in our current marriage and sometimes just dating someone new ends up getting you everything that you wanted so bad that you were missing in your previous relationship.



Happilymarried25 said:


> Yes keep showering her with love, affection, hugs, kisses, romance, etc. without it leading to sex and hopefully this will lead to a spark in our sex life. If you withhold your affection it will lead to you two growing apart. My husband is LL and since we don't have sex that often I enjoy and need the hugs, kisses and cuddling that we do. That bonds us together. Think about it that way. What kind of marriage would you have if you took away the affection because you are resentful she doesn't want sex as often as you do? You would be roommates and odds are your marriage wouldn't survive.


Yes, I agree with you. I don't want to take away the affection but the intimacy part of the relationship is just important, if not more, to meeting my needs and feeling loved / wanted / desired in my marriage.



Anon1111 said:


> Not sure if OP is still reading, but I don't think maintaining the non sexual intimacy is going to do it for him, based on his posts.
> 
> He already has that and it is likely just increasing his frustration as to what he is missing.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm exactly one of those people. I can't separate and enjoy just the non-sexual intimacy and just be happy with this type of lifestyle. I'm sorry but I do have a sex drive and I just can't put my sex drive into "park".


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Yes keep showering her with love, affection, hugs, kisses, romance, etc. without it leading to sex and hopefully this will lead to a spark in our sex life. If you withhold your affection it will lead to you two growing apart. My husband is LL and since we don't have sex that often I enjoy and need the hugs, kisses and cuddling that we do. That bonds us together. Think about it that way. What kind of marriage would you have if you took away the affection because you are resentful she doesn't want sex as often as you do? You would be roommates and odds are your marriage wouldn't survive.


LL?

So he continues to meet all of her needs in the hope that at some point she might reciprocate and possibly consider meeting one of his? That doesn't sound much like a partnership.

They are living as roommates already.


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## WonkyNinja (Feb 28, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> I consider myself to be very witty, charismatic, funny; so at the beginning of the relationship or when I was single I never had a problem talking to girls, making them laugh, being charming, poking fun but in a cute way, and feeling confident as a man by being more in control of planning dates but of course seeing what she would want to do as well.


And that is the person she fell in love with.



> I am a nice guy and I've been raised to always treat women with respect and always be helpful to them as best as I can but I do have that flirtatious side that I know women like and definitely separates me from the "nice guy" mold.


Nothing wrong with that, unless you are with someone that takes advantage of those characteristics in which case you need to stand up for who you are.



> Now being with my wife for so long (dating + marriage) I still try to keep that witty/flirtatious/charming aspect in our marriage but it is harder when we are together 24/7/365. I can still make her laugh very easily and that's one of the things I love doing because her laugh is infectious, but I do miss the days when we were dating and I didn't see her that often because it gave us a chance to miss each other.
> 
> In the past when we were at a lower point, she mentioned that maybe we should try having some time apart because everything else we were doing wasn't really working. I don't agree that time apart is the solution, especially when we are not at a good place with each other. I told her if we did this it would most likely make me resent her more. I don't think it would have the same effect that it did in the past when we were dating but we were so happy with each other, then that just made me want to see her even more when we weren't together. I feel like time apart now would just be a means to an end.


You strike me as still having enough positive feelings for her to outweigh the building resentment. You probably have a chance to save this before it becomes the other way around. 



> Lately, I just don't feel that she has admiration towards me as a man and I've told her "I don't think you understand how important it is for me, as a man, to have my wife desire me sexually, not hugs/kisses, but wanting and needing me"; I just don't feel she understands how important that is to me. And it's hard to be the take charge man now planning and doing things because as I learned as our relationship evolved she can be controlling at times...which is a side that I did not notice at the beginning of the relationship (honeymoon period).


My XW could be the same and it is difficult to deal with but you need to tell her straight that she committed to a marriage which is, by any definition biblical or otherwise, an intimate relationship and if all she wants is a friend and cuddle buddy then she needs to find one but you need a wife and not a friend.



> I just feel that my love / affection towards her is never enough; it's like she has a hole in her love tank and it just spills on to the ground. She has said to me "that she knows she requires a lot and there are probably other girls out there that don't need as much as she does". Which I agree with her 100%, every person's needs are different and I sometimes think to myself would I be happier with someone who didn't have such high emotional needs. I guess in her defense I could also say would she be happier with someone who was LD and could live on just non-sexual intimacy.


Sounds like she would be, in which case she needs to move on and find that person. She admits that she is needy but she doesn't seem to care that you have needs as well? Not on. That isn't a fair relationship.

If she wants to live on with just non-sexual intimacy tell her that you two can go back to being just friends, but that isn't a marriage.



> Yes, I completely agree. Usually choices like this are very simple to state on paper but the follow through is the tough part! hahaha.
> 
> It's just sucks because there was a time that she was this girl that enjoyed being intimate with me and she desired me.


Or she pretended to be. 



> It's just funny how relationships work out, for example, a married couple with a husband complaining about the lack of intimacy and the wife not wanting to be intimate for her own reasons; which most likely are valid. Then these people get divorced and the wife ends up finding a new boyfriend/husband, which she has sex with all the time.
> 
> I see it all the time on social media, people who get divorced seem to find someone new and they seem genuinely happier; I think this is usually what happens.
> 
> If I divorce my wife and end up finding a new girlfriend; of course we will be happy because we are in the same "honeymoon period" I was once in with my ex-wife. The sex will be great and the affection will be great; everyone is happy. And my ex-wife would find a new boyfriend and they would be having a ton of sex, and the part that sucks is that the intimacy that we were lacking now comes so easily to her in a new relationship.


In that case the divorce was the right thing for everyone. She obviously didn't desire her husband in the first place and they should both be happier.



> It just sucks that with time, resentment builds, and it just gets harder and harder to fix the intimacy issue in our current marriage and sometimes just dating someone new ends up getting you everything that you wanted so bad that you were missing in your previous relationship.


Hence you need to act now and not later. I waited until it was too late, well I didn't I got shot down when I brought the issue up earlier but by the time I said I wanted out I really did.



> Yes, I agree with you. I don't want to take away the affection but the intimacy part of the relationship is just important, if not more, to meeting my needs and feeling loved / wanted / desired in my marriage.
> 
> Yes, I'm exactly one of those people. I can't separate and enjoy just the non-sexual intimacy and just be happy with this type of lifestyle. I'm sorry but I do have a sex drive and I just can't put my sex drive into "park".


Your needs are every bit as important as hers and you don't need to apologize to anyone for your sex drive.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ptomczyk11 said:


> If I divorce my wife and end up finding a new girlfriend; of course we will be happy because we are in the same "honeymoon period" I was once in with my ex-wife. The sex will be great and the affection will be great; everyone is happy. And my ex-wife would find a new boyfriend and they would be having a ton of sex, and the part that sucks is that the intimacy that we were lacking now comes so easily to her in a new relationship.


That honeymoon period will end in the next relationship, too. There's no reason to believe she wouldn't revert to cuddles and kisses once that honeymoon period wears off, if she's as needy for affection as you say. It's brain chemistry, and she's no more responsible for the change in brain chemicals than you are.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

WonkyNinja said:


> LL?
> 
> So he continues to meet all of her needs in the hope that at some point she might reciprocate and possibly consider meeting one of his? That doesn't sound much like a partnership.
> 
> They are living as roommates already.


LL = Low Libido


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

File for divorce tomorrow. If your wife is shocked into having sex with you, and is consistent, you can always withdraw the filing later. If she doesn't, you are better off divorced.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Outside Perspective:
> 
> 1. Women: Do you sexually desire your husbands? Do you ever initiate sex with your husband?


I had one husband. I loved him very much, but sexual desire was not part of that. I'm not made that way. I never initiated. If he wanted sex, all he had to do was ask. That was our deal.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

2020hindsight said:


> I had one husband. I loved him very much, but sexual desire was not part of that. I'm not made that way. I never initiated. If he wanted sex, all he had to do was ask. That was our deal.



Sorry that's just not how it works. Sorry it didn't work out the way you wanted.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

WonkyNinja said:


> And that is the person she fell in love with.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that, unless you are with someone that takes advantage of those characteristics in which case you need to stand up for who you are.
> 
> ...


We did a little weekend getaway and went out to dinner one night; towards the end of the dinner I was thinking we could grab a few drinks by the bar and then head back to our room and hopefully be intimate, but she just pictured going back to the room to relax, read, take a bath, etc - I'm not sure if in her head she was thinking of being intimate but knowing my wife, most likely not. These are the times I wish she would just say something like "*screw the bar, let's have our own little party back at the room*".

Anyway the conversation turned into her saying "*everything I ever do is never good enough for you (she has said this before)*". Also, "*I know you like to stay out late, party, drink and you like to be the last guy at the bar all the time (she has said this before too*)". And *"yes"*, I do like to have a good time and my definition of a good time is usually hanging out late, drinking with friends, etc...however, this is not what I meant by getting drinks at the bar with her. She made it sound like I wanted to get bottle service with her and party until 4AM; all I wanted was to have a couple drinks with her, have fun, maybe get a little buzzed and head back to the room.

She would say "*I don't need to get drunk to have a good time*"; again, I'm not saying we need to get plastered but I would just like to take advantage of our little weekend getaway and get some drinks with my wife. The part that bothers me the most is if she is out with her friends or we are all out with a group of people; she drinks, gets buzzed, and has a great time. I know she is capable of this because we also use to do it ourselves at the beginning of the relationship too. I just hat how she makes it sound like I'm some degenerate alcoholic because I like to stay out late and drink when I'm out with friends, or makes it sound like I can only have fun unless I'm drinking; which is simply not true!

Then at the end she's like "*okay lets' get some drinks after dinner*", and I'm like I know you don't really want to so we can just go back to the room; to which she replies, "*I can never win with you*". This annoys me, don't make it out to feel like I'm the a**hole now because I don't want to go to the bar; I wanted her to want to go to the bar without having this whole judge/jury trial pleading my case and then have her say "*ok, let's go to the bar now*".

I know she enjoys to relax and I know she feels more comfortable saying to me as her husband, "*I just want to go to the room, take a bath, and relax*". However, I hate that she never puts in the effort to do the things I enjoy as well (e.g. having some drinks with my wife at the bar); especially because I see her do this when we are with a group of people. I only experience this when we are out with a group of friends, if we are alone it's more about what makes her happy. 

Later back in the room, I ask her are you having a good time this weekend and she says *"yes, it's been a great weekend; you see I just want to relax, take a bath, and do simple things; why don't you do the things that you know make me happy*".

I don't mind doing things for her or planning nights where we do things like going back to the room and we can just relax because that's what makes her happy. *However, my issue is when does she start doing the things I like? Or in my rant above, why couldn't we just do both? Have some drinks at the bar and head back to the room and relax?*

She has a way of making me feel that my way of doing things is not right and when I say let's do this too she throws "*everything I ever do for you is never enough*" back at my face; it definitely annoys me!

She has a way of throwing sex in my face too and making it sound like all I need from her is sex; she would say if "*I just give you sex all the time then you will be happy*". And "*yes*" if my wife desired me more sexually and we had more sex; I would definitely be happier but I hate the way she paints a picture that almost feels like I just use her for sex only. I love my wife and our relationship as a whole; from our inside jokes, to non-sexual intimacy, things we do together, her laughter/smile, etc.

And "*yes*" sex is important to me in our relationship; I just feel like she's strong-minding me at times and making me feel like I'm in the wrong because I focus on sex so much. Also, to mention she is in the *psychology field*; so I feel she also has an advantage on me when it comes to communication.

I know the daily routine of our lives like work, stress, home chores, grocery / other errands, making dinner, etc. effect her wanting to be intimate with me on a weekly basis (1x 2x 3x week); especially since she is LD and doesn't see "sex" as a high priority. However, I always try to help her out as much as possible with home chores, grocery / other errands, set the table for dinner etc. this way there is less she has to do and hopefully be more in the mood to be intimate. 

Lately I just feel bad to have to push her into having sex after doing all those things she has done. I feel like an a** trying to initiate sex because I can already hear her saying in my head "*everything I do, is still never good enough for you*". 

*I'm struggling in finding the right things to say back so I don't bury myself further into a ditch when she says things like "everything I do, is still never good enough for you"? 
, Or "why don't you just do the things that make me happy" (how about the things that make me happy?)? 
, Or if "I just give you sex all the time then you will be happy"?*



norajane said:


> That honeymoon period will end in the next relationship, too. There's no reason to believe she wouldn't revert to cuddles and kisses once that honeymoon period wears off, if she's as needy for affection as you say. It's brain chemistry, and she's no more responsible for the change in brain chemicals than you are.


Yes, I completely agree...I'm sure I would run into similar problems again in another relationship especially if she is LD too.




2020hindsight said:


> I had one husband. I loved him very much, but sexual desire was not part of that. I'm not made that way. I never initiated. If he wanted sex, all he had to do was ask. That was our deal.


I don't think this would work out for me, at the beginning of the relationship I didn't mind initiating sex all the time because I would never get turned down but I'm at the point now that I want her to desire me sometimes; that makes me feel good, instead of feeling like I'm inconveniencing her because I always have to initiate it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

What I got from your description of the weekend is that *you are living in her frame*. 

Living in fear and letting her dictate how you are going to live your life. 

That isn't going to change until you man up and grow a pair. She is fitness testing your Beta a$$ and you are failing miserably. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html 

The fact she is a psychologist makes it even more critical. This is PRIMAL stuff.

Be the 'Man With The plan'. Take her out. Don't tell her where you two are going. Don't ask her if she wants to hit the bar for a drink or two. Just do it. Take her dancing. Then haul her back to the room, carry her across the threshold and take her. 

Don't wait for her to tell you she wants you to take her back to the room and ravish her. The guy that waits for that is a 'nice guy' beta schlub constantly seeking validation from her. Don't be that guy. She is not attracted to that guy.

Get a copy of Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay, read it and start MAPping. Ultimately, what you will find is that the stay plan is the same as the go plan. Get yourself into good shape, become more attractive to women in general, be more alpha, don't fear her and initiate sex when you want it.

OK, Done with the :rant:

Don't wait.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

One particularly risky strategy would be the self-initiated sex moratorium. You do this as much for yourself as you do for her.

The idea is that you sit her down and say "you have indicated that I'm too focused on sex and that colors everything I do. I don't believe that is the case, but it's time for us to re-set our relationship and the assumptions we make about one another. As a result, I believe we should have a three month sex moratorium so that we can refocus on the core of the relationship."

By taking sex off the table, you change your behaviors as well as hers. You don't go around trying to placate her in hopes of getting in her pants. You take the p***y off the pedastal and you start acting in way a way that is more true to yourself. In the process, you illustrate that "it's not all about sex." Take note of whether your behaviors change at all when the hope / prospect of sex is off the table. It may teach you something about what you're doing wrong on a day-to-day basis. 

Before the break starts, you make it clear that the moratorium is not permanent. That once end of January arrives that you will re-engage. Your expectation is that you will have an active engaging sex life with someone. You want it to be her. 

During the moratorium, you need to stay chipper, engaged in the relationship and generally positive. It's a risky approach. She may like the "moratorium" and never want to change from that. If that's the case, you have your answer and know what you need to do.

At the very least, you will be able to quash her retorts that "its all about sex" or that "she can never do enough." Take her "go-to resentments" off the table and you may be able to clear the way for discussion that gives you better understanding of whether she can ever evolve into a suitable partner for you.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's obvious that this is not a dealbreaker for you so you better get used to it. If you're not willing to do anything you just have to learn to accept it.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Tron said:


> What I got from your description of the weekend is that *you are living in her frame*.
> 
> Living in fear and letting her dictate how you are going to live your life.
> 
> ...


 @Tron Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely look into "Fitness Tests" and the "Married Man Sex Life Primer" book!

The issue that I experience sometimes that makes me lose this battle is if I man up and dictate what we are going to do she responds with "*we always have to do what you want, here you go wanting to get your way all the time*". It drives me insane because I'm very easy going for the most part but when I try to do something I want to do she makes me question and think do I really get my way all the time; which is not true.

It's just annoying because she says things that I feel I have no defense for. By nature, I usually get defensive when she says things like this and she will go on to say "*why do you always have to be so defensive*". I can't just let her say these things and by okay with it, if she says something that I don't agree with, of course, my first reaction is to defend myself because I don't believe she's right. But of course, it's always me getting defensive or me getting my way all the time; which makes it hard to even say anything back. 

I'm a very optimistic / positive person and she seems to always be negative / complaining about friends, family, work, me, etc. and she makes it sound like there is *so much effort involved* to do these things she's complaining about instead of just taking it in stride; in the end she does end up doing it but I just always have to be the one that hears about the complaining beforehand all the time.

I always tell her that there are people out there that have it much worse than us and she should be grateful for the life we have; she would say things like "*of course this would happen to me, god hates me*" or "*I don't want to do that but I guess I have to*". 

I always try to be positive and try to help her out as much as possible but she will say things like "*I'm not looking for you to help me I just want you to feel the same way I feel*". I know she is probably looking for me to sympathize with her and I do sometimes but it's hard for me to always just sympathize with her negativity / complaints because I'm not that type of person. This then leads her to say "*you never put me as a priority*"; lately, if just feels like no matter what I do or say I tend to just back myself into a corner. And she will say to me that "*I don't require much to be happy*", but it's hard to believe that because of the way she acts.



MarriedTex said:


> One particularly risky strategy would be the self-initiated sex moratorium. You do this as much for yourself as you do for her.
> 
> The idea is that you sit her down and say "you have indicated that I'm too focused on sex and that colors everything I do. I don't believe that is the case, but it's time for us to re-set our relationship and the assumptions we make about one another. As a result, I believe we should have a three month sex moratorium so that we can refocus on the core of the relationship."
> 
> ...


 @MarriedTex Thanks for the reply; great idea, definitely worth trying.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

When she accuses you of always wanting to get your way, stop fighting and stop being defensive. Agree with her. Say "yes, I expect to only do things I want to do. Doesn't everyone? Don't you? I want to go to work because I want to get paid. If you want me to want to be with you, find things for us to do that I want to do, or find ways to make the things you want to do fun for me. Then we'll both want the same thing."

When she accuses you of being selfish or immature or whatever, smile and say "Of course I am. I thought that was why you married me!" If she huffs off, don't chase her and apologize. Hit the gym.

If she tries to pick a fight when you get home and accuses you of ignoring her or abandoning her, say "No, I went to the gym. You want to see what abandoning is?" Then leave.

When you return and she says you are a jerk and I can't be with a guy who acts that way say "Fine. I am happy to discuss the ground rules for our marriage and how we treat each other. My rule #1: I am not interested in being in a sexless marriage." Then ask her what she wants from you and see if you guys can work out a framework that works for both of you. But don't fall for the "you need to clean up your act and maybe after a while of treating me better I might go back to being in the mood for sex." If she expects you to fulfill your side of the bargain starting immediately, then sex needs to restart within a few days also. Otherwise she is trying to reassert her power position and gatekeeping of sex.

If you take this advice you could easily end up divorced. But at least you won't be stuck in a sexless marriage. If you can't bring yourself to do this, and I couldn't while my kids were living with us, then you can't expect to fix the problem either.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> When she accuses you of always wanting to get your way, stop fighting and stop being defensive. Agree with her. Say "yes, I expect to only do things I want to do. Doesn't everyone? Don't you? I want to go to work because I want to get paid. If you want me to want to be with you, find things for us to do that I want to do, or find ways to make the things you want to do fun for me. Then we'll both want the same thing."



If you do this, be prepared to hear it back the next time you want sex.

"If you want me to have sex with you, find a way to make me want it, then we'll both want the same thing."

Just sayin'...


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

It's ok to ask her occasionally beforehand if there is something specific that she would like to do. My guess though, is that she will give you a non answer or waffle. That is totally on her. Then go about setting things up to do what you think both of you enjoy or what you want to do. And if she doesn't enjoy herself, well that's totally on her too. You aren't responsible for her happiness.

And when she goes on one of those bull$hit rants, you shut it down. "You had your chance." Then shut up. 

Don't get defensive, don't try and explain. It has gotten you nowhere. 

It has come to the point in the relationship where you are going to have to force her to own her own $hit. Right now, she dumps it all on you and its got you tied up like a pretzel.

You need to add a few sayings to your repertoire. 

"I'm not ok with you blaming/abusing/treating me ..."

"I'm sorry you feel that way"

"We see things differently"

And when she goes on a ridiculous rant..."Are you done?" 

For example...



ptomczyk11 said:


> The issue that I experience sometimes that makes me lose this battle is if I man up and dictate what we are going to do she responds with "we always have to do what you want"


"I'm sorry you feel that way"



ptomczyk11 said:


> "here you go wanting to get your way all the time"


"We see things differently"



ptomczyk11 said:


> It's just annoying because she says things that I feel I have no defense for.


Then don't engage the hamster.



ptomczyk11 said:


> By nature, I usually get defensive when she says things like this and she will go on to say "*why do you always have to be so defensive*".


The fact is that you probably are. But that stops today.



ptomczyk11 said:


> I can't just let her say these things and be okay with it, if she says something that I don't agree with, of course, my first reaction is to defend myself because I don't believe she's right.


"We will have to agree to disagree on that"



ptomczyk11 said:


> But of course, it's always me getting defensive or me getting my way all the time; which makes it hard to even say anything back.


Then don't! Just don't engage.

You might also start to shoot these things down with humor. 

Just realize that she is testing you, trying to determine if you are man enough for her. Be the calm in the storm and she will have to respect you. Right now you let her tie you up in knots. What is to respect about that?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Why do you feel you have to win the argument so badly?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tron said:


> Why do you feel you have to win the argument so badly?


This. 

It is a form of control you are trying to exert over her to see it your way.

She is doing the same thing to you.

Follow the statements Tron laid out. They allow you to state your piece without defending or trying to control.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Tron said:


> Just realize that she is testing you, trying to determine if you are man enough for her. Be the calm in the storm and she will have to respect you. Right now you let her tie you up in knots. What is to respect about that?


It's just hard for me to wrap my head around that we are still playing games / testing each other. It seems like it's easier for her to just criticize me instead of being more accepting in the way I am.



Tron said:


> Why do you feel you have to win the argument so badly?


I don't see it as winning the argument, but I feel like she doesn't even respect me when she talks to me like that she. It feels like she wants to control every situation, her answer is always better than mine, etc. and I would just like more of a balance of power in the relationship.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> It's just hard for me to wrap my head around that we are still playing games / testing each other. It seems like it's easier for her to just criticize me instead of being more accepting in the way I am.


Could be subconscious. Lizard brain stuff.




ptomczyk11 said:


> I don't see it as winning the argument, but I feel like she doesn't even respect me when she talks to me like that she. It feels like she wants to control every situation, her answer is always better than mine, etc. and I would just like more of a balance of power in the relationship.


Read the book, get informed and change the balance of power.

And then if your marriage ultimately isn't what you want, then get out. 

What do you know about her Family of Origin (FOO)?


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

ptomczyk11 said:


> @norajane The things she does *"as a wife"*are things that I greatly appreciate and I thank her for doing those things and I help her out as much as I can. I also have my own set of responsibilities* "as a husband"* that I do for her (e.g. yard work, anything to do with the house, garbage, buy her gifts too, etc.), but the fact that remains is all those things that she does *"as a wife"* I'm willing and able to do myself. Of course I appreciate everything she does, but no matter how many *"as a husband"* things I do for her if I *stopped being affectionate with her* everything else I've done would not matter to her, she just wants affection.
> 
> It's just been a declining slippery slope because we talk about the same thing *"affection vs sex"* and it's a cycle that doesn't seem to be getting resolved because we are not meeting each others *primary fundamental needs*.
> 
> ...


The bit where you state she is always on the phone grabbed my attention.

I am a firm believer that when sex goes stone cold dead in a marriage or significantly drops in frequencey barring any medically diagnosed health issues by a doctor (not self diagnosed) than the possibillity that the refuser is having an affair should always be examined.

Your story raises some red flags for me.

1) The lack of sex
2) The constant phone texting. Are you sure she is not texting a friend of the opposite sex.

Some discreet digging needs to be done by you. 

She might not be doing anything but then again she might be this is something you can not over look.

As you have already found she does have a sex drive for whatever the reason just not for you.

You need to work this out quickly and discreetly and decide whether or not her actions are a deal breaker for you


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

My question to her is why doesn't she do things that make you happy? Your wife sounds stubborn and selfish, she wants to to back to the room to relax that that's what she assumes you are going to do. You would like to have a drink at the bar and go back to the room and be intimate. She needs to compromise more with you, maybe has a couple of drinks at the bar and then go to the room to relax. 

Compromise is the best way to solve a marriage where two people have different sex drives. She may not be in the mood for sex often but she should be having sex with you because you want to. It shouldn't always be what she wants to do. My husband could go a couple of months with out sex, I would like to having sex once a week so we compromise and have it maybe twice a month. I know he is having sex more often because that's what I want and need.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> My question to her is why doesn't she do things that make you happy? Your wife sounds stubborn and selfish, she wants to to back to the room to relax that that's what she assumes you are going to do. You would like to have a drink at the bar and go back to the room and be intimate. She needs to compromise more with you, maybe has a couple of drinks at the bar and then go to the room to relax.
> 
> Compromise is the best way to solve a marriage where two people have different sex drives. She may not be in the mood for sex often but she should be having sex with you because you want to. It shouldn't always be what she wants to do. My husband could go a couple of months with out sex, I would like to having sex once a week so we compromise and have it maybe twice a month. I know he is having sex more often because that's what I want and need.


Yes, I agree; both of us compromising would definitely help our situation but I feel like she is never able to compromise on being intimate which is my primary need.

She says I'm not affectionate enough for her primary affectionate needs so I do go out of my way to get cards, write cute love notes and leave them around the house, hug/kiss her more often, talk to her and try to be an ear for her while she is complaining about things, etc.

However, the part that drives me nuts is in previous discussions where she would use the "*everything I do is never good enough for you*" response to say how she does things around the house, saying how handsome I look, being affectionate (hugs/kisses), etc. So she would say "*everything I do is never good enough for you, all you want is sex to be happy.*" And I told her some of my fantasies before like I would love to come home one day from work and find her in some sexy lingerie or for her to actually initiate sex and show me she desires me. 

So the part that kills me is she knows exactly what my primary need is and how happy it would make me if she did this but she is yet to ever actually do any of this; she says it to me, knows what I want, but I've never experienced it. And when I've told her this before she would sometimes give me the excuse that being sexual is not easy for her; well being overly affectionate doesn't come easy for me either but I still make an effort; she never seems to make the effort when it comes to being intimate.

I hate that I go out of my way to leave her cute love notes, tell her how beautiful she looks, being more affectionate and it always feels like she's saying "*ok, I'm happy you are doing this but you still haven't done it long enough; so you still didn't earn me going out of my way to meet your intimate needs yet*".

I feel like if I start being more affectionate with her, that I shouldn't have to feel like I have to earn more credits first before she starts meeting my intimate needs. The joke of it all in my gut, I feel like even if I did all the affectionate needs that she needs I still feel she will view my "intimacy needs as never as important as her affectionate needs".

And she always says "*I respond to you, what you do is how I will respond*"; but she still doesn't "respond" in the intimate ways I need her to; she "responds" by just being more affectionate it with more hugs/kisses.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

She's got you dancing to her tune, and giving you nothing but hints she might decide to meet your needs. Dance, monkey,dance! 

Is this working for you?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Yes, I agree; both of us compromising would definitely help our situation but I feel like she is never able to compromise on being intimate which is my primary need.
> 
> She says I'm not affectionate enough for her primary affectionate needs so I do go out of my way to get cards, write cute love notes and leave them around the house, hug/kiss her more often, talk to her and try to be an ear for her while she is complaining about things, etc.
> 
> ...


so sit her down and tell her that from now on, you will treat her needs the exact same way she treats yours.

and then treat her needs the exact same way she treats yours. 
because its fair.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Read the threads of neuklas and Bagdon


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

ptomczyk11 said:


> We did a little weekend getaway and went out to dinner one night; towards the end of the dinner I was thinking we could grab a few drinks by the bar and then head back to our room and hopefully be intimate, but she just pictured going back to the room to relax, read, take a bath, etc - I'm not sure if in her head she was thinking of being intimate but knowing my wife, most likely not. These are the times I wish she would just say something like "*screw the bar, let's have our own little party back at the room*".
> 
> Anyway the conversation turned into her saying "*everything I ever do is never good enough for you (she has said this before)*". Also, "*I know you like to stay out late, party, drink and you like to be the last guy at the bar all the time (she has said this before too*)". And *"yes"*, I do like to have a good time and my definition of a good time is usually hanging out late, drinking with friends, etc...however, this is not what I meant by getting drinks at the bar with her. She made it sound like I wanted to get bottle service with her and party until 4AM; all I wanted was to have a couple drinks with her, have fun, maybe get a little buzzed and head back to the room.
> 
> ...


Look, She is actively trying to avoid doing things with you that will lead to sex. My wife does the same things. I ask her out to dinner or to go out for drinks, I get the worst excuses possible. A day later we get asked out to dinner with some friends, she's all over it. The difference is when we go out with friends it is easier for her to have a few drinks and be to tired for sex when we get home.

I ask hey here's a good deal for a weekend away for our anniversary, reply I don't think we can afford it. A week later we spend much more on stuff we don't really need. She comments all the time about how she loves will go away to places. I had to practically force her to go away on our last two anniversaries. We went to the Caribbean on our 25th she put no, zero, nothing effort in to picking the place or making the arrangements. It finally dawned on me that if sex were potentially on the table she avoided it.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

Vulcan2013 said:


> She's got you dancing to her tune, and giving you nothing but hints she might decide to meet your needs. Dance, monkey,dance!
> 
> Is this working for you?


 @Vulcan2013 Nope, and it does feel like I'm just jumping around like a monkey trying to figure this out. Lol.



As'laDain said:


> so sit her down and tell her that from now on, you will treat her needs the exact same way she treats yours.
> 
> and then treat her needs the exact same way she treats yours.
> because its fair.


 @As'laDain I've tried this approach in the past, I've tried explaining to her how important it is for me to be intimate with my wife more often than 1x a month and also have the feeling that my wife actually desires me sexually; which is something I rarely feel from her.

She always seems to win because she spins it to make me sound like a pig because all I want is sex from her and I can't just love her. She goes on to say that her friend's husbands still love their wives and they don't treat their wives any different because they rarely get sex or when they are denied sex from their wives. I then go on to say I'm not your friend's husband and I don't think you should be comparing their relationship to ours; maybe your friend's husbands don't need to be intimate with their wives as much as I need to be.

And what she means by "*her friend's husbands still loving their wives and not treating them any differently*" is being intimate with my wife is important to me, and if we are rarely intimate if just makes me feel not as close to her; so I do start pulling away and not being as affectionate with her the way she would like because I just don't feel that closeness with her. However, I still love my wife very much and it's not like I start being nasty towards her; it just feels the longer I go without being intimate with my wife the further I feel from her; like two boats drifting apart. 

I wish I could be like her friend's husbands and still be very affectionate (hugs/kisses) but when I keep getting rejected when I try to initiate sex or the fact that she never wants to be intimate with me just wants to hug/cuddle me all the time; the last thing I want to do is be more affectionate with her to meet her needs when she lacks the effort to ever meet my needs.

A perfect example, the other day I was really affectionate with her; gave her hugs/kisses, rubbed her back, etc. (all things she loves), and I did this throughout the day; so in the evening I wanted to watch a new episode a show I watch and she knows I like watching this show. So she goes on to say "*I need more hugs*" and I said "*no, no more hugs right now*" because I was watching my show and she gave me that look like; which I can interpret as "*see, you don't like being affectionate with me and you don't put me as a priority over the TV*". Like I don't get it, did you forget already about all the affection I gave you throughout the day? has that worn off already? It's like me having sex with her and then 10 minutes later me initiating sex again and her turning me down and then me giving her a look of disgust; that would never work even though maybe I would like to have sex with her again.

So basically I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, because when I bring up how important intimacy is to me and having my wife desire me she views that as me only caring about sex and not loving her; which then makes her want to have less sex with me. But then if I shower her with affection and avoid having sex with her then I just keep giving her what she needs and she never puts in the effort to initiate sex with me so I then turn into her teddy bear.

*
The question I keep asking myself now is if I'm in the wrong for feeling this way about sex? Is divorce an option when I feel no sexual desire from my wife, feel like a cuddle buddy, and my intimacy needs are not being met?
*


LongWalk said:


> Read the threads of neuklas and Bagdon


 @LongWalk Are there any specific post titles I should be reading or just do a username search for all the posts they have started?



Always Learning said:


> Look, She is actively trying to avoid doing things with you that will lead to sex. My wife does the same things. I ask her out to dinner or to go out for drinks, I get the worst excuses possible. A day later we get asked out to dinner with some friends, she's all over it. The difference is when we go out with friends it is easier for her to have a few drinks and be to tired for sex when we get home.
> 
> I ask hey here's a good deal for a weekend away for our anniversary, reply I don't think we can afford it. A week later we spend much more on stuff we don't really need. She comments all the time about how she loves will go away to places. I had to practically force her to go away on our last two anniversaries. We went to the Caribbean on our 25th she put no, zero, nothing effort in to picking the place or making the arrangements. It finally dawned on me that if sex were potentially on the table she avoided it.


 @Always Learning Yes, I know exactly what you are going through. One example I have is on the weekends she use to lay with me in bed in the morning and we would cuddle and of course that would turn me on so I would try to be intimate with her every once in a while but now she wakes up super early and goes downstairs to watch TV, basically to nullify any chance of having sex in the morning.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ptomczyk11, when you say you have tried that approach, do you mean that you actually sat her down, told her that she gets cuddles as freely as you get sex, and then stuck to your word? because the way you described it, it sounds like you were all talk. 

the point is not really to convince your wife to start having sex with you. the point is to find out if your wife is even willing to do the things that make you feel loved. not only is it a way for you to find out if your wife is willing to speak your love language, its also a way for you to find out if you even want to be married to her. 

seriously, i have heard all of those same arguments out of my own wifes mouth. nothing changed until i completely, and unapologetically, rejected her entire assessment of my love language and need for sex. there wasnt a damn thing wrong with me for wanting sex from my wife. i wasn't a "pig" who only wanted sex. if my wife would have rather sat on her backside and accuse me than do ANYTHING to convince me to meet her emotional needs, then we would have been better off DIVORCED.

my wife even once said that having sex often "cheapens the act". at the time, the only time we had sex was when she got in the mood once a month or three and wanted to "scratch the itch" in order to make it go away. thats how she described sex back then. scratching an itch. and yet im supposed to believe that having sex outside of those conditions "cheapens the act"? what could be more cheap than scratching an itch to make it go away?

seriously, fvk that nonsense. if you want to live in that frustration for the rest of your life, keep doing what you have been doing. keep talking much while doing little. i dont even know what your wifes issue is, but i think you have done enough talking to know that talking is not enough.

in my wifes case, there were a LOT of valid reasons why she was adverse to sex, and not a damn one of them had anything to do with me. so what should i do in such a situation? lament my wifes past abuse and accept a marriage where she gets to feel loved and i dont? NOPE, not going to happen. if i HAD to miss out on feeling loved because of her choices, than she can carry that burden with me. after all, i had always been more than willing to do whatever i could to meet her emotional needs, even when i didnt feel like it. if she was not willing to do the same, then why not just divorce?


but you know what? she was willing, but only because she couldn't stand to be in the same boat as me. so she started making effort and suffered all the crazy and irritating affects of change and effort. and i did my damndest to make sure her effort was worth it, when she made it. 

the only reason we moved forward and "fixed it" was because i made damn well sure that the status quo was no longer an option. 


there isnt a damn thing wrong with you. its not even sex that you want so bad... its the feeling of being loved by your spouse. if sex was all that mattered, it wouldnt matter who it was with. but you want it from your wife because it makes you feel close to her and loved by her. if cuddles was all your wife wanted, tell her to get a dog. it would be a more kind hearted solution than the one she is giving you, which is essentially : do without.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/192194-im-tired-trying.html

neuklas

Bagdon's thread has a title like "with a man I don't love"

re: sexual mismatch in marriage
It may be frustrating but it is always solvable. Sometime divorce is the solution.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

I have always woke up before my wife. I used to lay in bed on the weekends relaxing until she woke up. I would then slide over next to her to cuddle for a while and just share a few moments of affection. Years ago it was fine, these days she jumps out of bed saying she has to get out of bed right away or she gets a massive headache for the day. Now I just get out of bed as soon as I wake up and skip the closeness and affection it used to bring. 

Now she does sometimes get bad headaches but I highly doubt it would be caused by laying in bed for 5 or 10 more minutes. She wakes up with them occasionally.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

"Hey psychologist wife, I've absolutely had it with the absence of intimacy, the chronic lack of respect for my needs, and the elaborate charade in which you habitually evade or invalidate them through irrelevant comparisons with neighbors, logistical dodges, and pious shaming--all of which insults both your intelligence and mine. I'm not willing to debate the merits of this any further; we either fix it or we split." 

Say it in a matter-of-fact tone. Stop dancing to her tune and wearing your heart and your hurt on your sleeve. Then prepare to separate and file, and act like you're getting it somewhere else already in the meantime. Unless you shake her out of this complacency with true willingness to act, she will always have you by the balls.


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## ptomczyk11 (Feb 9, 2015)

As'laDain said:


> ptomczyk11, when you say you have tried that approach, do you mean that you actually sat her down, told her that she gets cuddles as freely as you get sex, and then stuck to your word? because the way you described it, it sounds like you were all talk.
> 
> the point is not really to convince your wife to start having sex with you. the point is to find out if your wife is even willing to do the things that make you feel loved. not only is it a way for you to find out if your wife is willing to speak your love language, its also a way for you to find out if you even want to be married to her.
> 
> ...


 @As'laDain I wouldn't say I took a sit down approach and talked to her about this. It was more like me just slowly starting to detach from her, being less available, and less affectionate with her. But this method did not seem to work out well because then we basically just drifted further apart and it just felt weird being around each other because we were roommates. 

Maybe this would have worked better if I sat her down and talked to her about this first, but it seems like whenever we talk about this "affection / intimacy cycle" issue we have it goes back to her saying "*I respond to you, the more you are affectionate with me the more I want to have sex with you*". However, I never experienced her being more sexual or initiating sex, no matter how much affection I show her and I think she has a false sense of what "initiating sex" is. She says to me that she does initiate sex but her signs are so weak I don't see them as her initiating sex. I have told her before I just can't tell the difference between when you want to be intimate or when you just want to cuddle. So when she cuddles me and hugs/kisses me; it starts to turn me on so I would then try to initiate sex and she would say "*no, I just want to cuddle*", you can't want to cuddle all the time and I need some clearer intimacy signals which she does not show me.

I've been reading the "*No More Mr. Nice Guy*" and "*The Marriage Man Sex Life Primer*" books and there is a lot of good information in there. I can see now the longer I've been married the more "*Beta*" I have become; which is upsetting to me. When I was single or at the beginning of my relationship I was very much "*Alpha*" but as the years went on being with my wife I've experienced a "power struggle" with her. I'm very easy going which probably has led me down this "*Beta*" path; so sometimes to avoid an argument and if it's something that I really don't care about I would just let her have her way. I can see that this most likely did not help me in the "*Alpha*" department and based on the books I'm reading women seem to be more sexually attracted to "*Alpha*" men vs "*Beta*" men.

This whole "*Alha*" mentality kind of reminds me of that line in "*Crazy, Stupid, Love*"; where he says "*Be better than the Gap*"; that seems to summarize exactly how I need to work on my self-improvement more.

I think my next step should be following my "*MAP (Male Action Plan) / 180*", and start focusing on my self-improvement to balance out my "*Alpha*" / "*Beta*" traits. 

I think my biggest issue that I need to work on is to not let her get to me each time she rejects my sexual advances. It's easier to say than do because I can only take so much rejection before it just starts making me pull farther away from her and start having resent towards her.

A couple thought/questions that run through my mind with this "*MAP (Male Action Plan) / 180*" plan are:

1. I guess following this MAP plan, *should I also stop initiating sex with her?* I feel like if I take this route, she will never initiate sex with me and I can also be less affectionate with her but it seems like this won't work because then we will just start drifting further apart in the end.

2. Or I can continue to initiate sex, which has been the norm in our relationship since the beginning, but not have her rejections bother me; easier said than done. *How do you guys handle rejection from your spouse?* But I feel with this method, it just brings back to where I started and having the feeling of pushing sex on to her and making it feel like "*duty sex*" instead of it being that she desires me and wants to be with me.

It feels like so much pressure/anxiety has been put around sex that it doesn't feel natural / enjoyable or I'll see that my wife avoids certain situations that can lead to sex. We have such a mismatch of what a date night ending should be like; we match up great on the 1st part but the 2nd part we are completely different. For example, we both like to go out to dinner, have some glasses of wine, laugh, talk, but then the 2nd part of the night she wants to just put her pajamas on and read a book and I want to carry over the threshold and have heart-pounding sex. I envision this in my mind, but I guess I set my expectations too high so when it doesn't happen it just makes me feel like crap and I just want to avoid being affectionate with her. I just want her to desire / want me sexually.



LongWalk said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/192194-im-tired-trying.html
> 
> neuklas
> 
> ...


 @LongWalk Thanks for the links! Those are some long posts, Lol, I finally went through all the posts and there is a lot good info there.




Phil Anders said:


> "Hey psychologist wife, I've absolutely had it with the absence of intimacy, the chronic lack of respect for my needs, and the elaborate charade in which you habitually evade or invalidate them through irrelevant comparisons with neighbors, logistical dodges, and pious shaming--all of which insults both your intelligence and mine. I'm not willing to debate the merits of this any further; we either fix it or we split."
> 
> Say it in a matter-of-fact tone. Stop dancing to her tune and wearing your heart and your hurt on your sleeve. Then prepare to separate and file, and act like you're getting it somewhere else already in the meantime. Unless you shake her out of this complacency with true willingness to act, she will always have you by the balls.


 @Phil Anders Yes, great point; something definitely needs to change.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

ptomczyk11 said:


> Maybe this would have worked better if I sat her down and talked to her about this first, but it seems like whenever we talk about this "affection / intimacy cycle" issue we have it goes back to her saying "*I respond to you, the more you are affectionate with me the more I want to have sex with you*". However, I never experienced her being more sexual or initiating sex, no matter how much affection I show her and I think she has a false sense of what "initiating sex" is. She says to me that she does initiate sex but her signs are so weak I don't see them as her initiating sex. I have told her before I just can't tell the difference between when you want to be intimate or when you just want to cuddle. So when she cuddles me and hugs/kisses me; it starts to turn me on so I would then try to initiate sex and she would say "*no, I just want to cuddle*", you can't want to cuddle all the time and I need some clearer intimacy signals which she does not show me.


Talk to her again, and when this comes up, call her on it. You need to tell her that you HAVE been more affectionate, and nothing has changed. Ask for a specific example of the last time she initiated. If it was a time that you didn't get the message, tell her specifically why you missed it.

I suspect that this all sounds great in her own head, and she probably believes it's true. But she may sputter out when you ask her for real examples of times she did her part and you did not!

Just pulling away like you have doesn't send the message that she needs to try harder. But it might send the message that you don't care, and that won't help your cause.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

if you are going to pull away...

SAY WHY!


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Neuklas did not tell his wife what he was doing. In this sense it was manipulative but it worked. However, playing alpha by definition diminishes love at some level. The really alpha guy will just move on.

Bagdon was a bit more touchy feely but at the end of the day he was playing to win. If he had failed, he would have also moved on.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

And in the end, IIRC, Neuklas got the affection and sex that he wanted without much of an emotional connection.


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