# How do I know when to trust?



## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

This is going to be a long post with many events to try and paint a picture of the situation I have gotten myself into. I'm not even sure if I'm choosing the right forum, but I really feel like I need some advice. 

Some time ago, I’d say about 1 year ago after much discussion my wife and I decided to try out a local swingers club. We set many boundaries with ourselves including that neither of us would ever do something without the other present, that each of us always could say no to a situation no questions asked and many other “reasonable” boundaries. We always followed these boundaries. We went to said club 3 or 4 times without ever meeting another couple. We would go into the play areas and enjoy each-other in the private bedrooms of the play area. It was quite exhilarating, we both enjoyed the experience very much each time we went. 

Occasionally my wife would get upset when we were there because she felt like we didn’t get any attention and it was her fault, or that there was great pressure on her to help us meet someone. I always reassured her that I always have fun with her when we go, and I don’t care if we meet anyone or not. I would tell her that there is no pressure, and if something does happen it’ll be because we are having a good time and the situation organically develops, not because a situation was forced. After about 5 times of going, the situation arose. One of the members of the club often offered 15-20 minute massages for tips only, in a nook of a semi-private walkway. As I was getting onto the table my butt drew the attention of another female and she commented to my wife. They had a good joke and moved on. Later in the evening we saw the couple again and talked with them a bit. We then ended up on the dance floor and things started to heat up. One thing lead to another and all four of us ended up in the play area fooling around. We all had a good time, and exchanged numbers. After that night there were a few text messages to let each other know that it was fun and we would all be interested in “playing” again should the opportunity arise. My wife and I talked about the experience and came the consensus that it was a very good experience, which turned us both on. It even improved our sex life in our bedroom at home. 

A few months went by and after some discussion we wanted to go back to the club. We did so and we were having a good time. Talking with others, having some drinks etc. Late in the night we me a couple that appeared to know a lot of people at the club; as you can imagine there are a lot of regulars there. We were talking and flirting with them, having a good time. At one point some members we know appeared to try and get us to leave them, but at the time I had thought it might be because they wanted to “play” with us. We didn’t and instead went into the play area and had a good time. After things ended I was tired and wanted to head home, so we did. We talked about it and decided that we both had a good time, but I said that I didn’t want to play with the couple again because I wasn’t really that into the female. My wife understood and we agreed. This is where the situation I want to discuss started. One night I came out of my home office and noticed my wife outside talking on her phone. I went out there to see what she was doing, and I got a really bad feeling. She was speaking to the male of the couple that we had played with a few nights prior at the club. She got off of the phone pretty quickly after I had walked out and stated that they had just been talking about his wife and random things. To my knowledge they hadn’t talked on the phone much after that, but they were texting from time to time. It worked out a couple of weeks later that we had the opportunity to head back to the club, and my wife and the male in question had arranged to meet up there, I was aware of the situation, but told my wife that I wasn’t really interested in playing with them again. As the night progressed I gave in to both the male’s wife’s flirting and the alcohol and decided what the heck. We had another “play” session. At some point during that session it was apparent to me that the male’s (I know there are acronyms for this stuff, but I don’t understand them, sorry) wife got jealous. She insisted that they go home, but was sly enough about it not to cause a scene. My wife and I continued enjoying each other before going home. 

A few weeks went by and we were going to be having a party at our place with a lot of our “vanilla” friends who have no idea that we were dabbling in swinging, and I preferred to keep it that way. In the interim between our last experience and this party my wife had still been communicating with her new “friends” both the husband and wife. She had stated that the male had helped her think about some things differently having to do with a loss that she was having a hard time coping with, and that they were good people. I told her that I didn’t want her to invite them to our party because I both didn’t want them to know where we live, and I didn’t want them around our other friends, because swinging is what they do all the time, it is who they are. Let me be clear, I’m not judging that, I just preferred to keep that part of our lives as private as possible. Anyhow, I found out a few days later that my wife had invited them, against my wishes. We argued about it and she insisted that I had said it was okay, which I never recall saying. Additionally, she criticized me for “judging” them, and insisted that they were good people and that I needed to get to know them better. Also, she pointed out that the male was her good friend and had helped her deal with the loss of her Mom in a way that no one else had been able to. 

One of our closer friends had some idea of how we had met the couple, and I had let her know that I think they are way too open about their lifestyle in inappropriate settings. The night of the party I probably had had a little too much to drink, and at some point in the hot tub after the couple in question had left, my wife overheard me talking about how inappropriate they were to this friend. She was not happy and an argument ensued later that night about it. I always felt like she was way overly defensive of these people we didn’t know very well. 
A week or so later we had decided to go out to a local country bar, and once again, the wife invited this couple where many of our friends would be. The entire night I felt she and the male were too close, and often it appeared he was openly flirting with and touching my wife right in front of me. The situation was interesting, because in the right setting I had let that type of thing happen, but I believed this was the wrong setting and they were both crossing the line. That same friend I mentioned earlier from the party that I was talking to agreed with me, and her and I did some dancing away from the male and my wife because I was just frustrated and didn’t want to get in an argument at the bar. That night when we got home we argued once again about this couple, and she defended them again. I was the jerk for being mean and judging them. She did finally at one point admit that maybe they were too touchy in front of our friends. 

That was the last time I have seen the couple. Since then my wife was still friends with the male until one point she said that the male made an inappropriately mean comment to her. She subsequently blocked him on facebook and asked him to leave her alone, at least for a while. He continued calling. She then blocked his number from our phone plan, but he would continue to contact her from other numbers, etc. He even called her at least once at work. She has stated that she tells him not to when these things happen. 

That brings us to last week, when the male contacted me. He sent me e-mails to a small business email that I maintain stating many things, some of the following quotes are from his e-mail. 

“I know that you don't like me, And I'm sorry for that. Just so you know, I never pursued your wife for anything other then friendship.
I helped her with heart because its my gift, my responsiblity.
I helped her come to piece with her mom. She wanted to leave you because she wasn't happy with your behavior. As a man, I helped her understand that you were reacting to her behavior, & only way to change you is for her to change first. She wouldn't listen to me at first, & wanted me instead. but don't worry I have your back. I sacrificed my friendship with [your wife], to get to come to her senses.
So I'm gone, and gladly so. For whats worth, I liked you, after all
[your wife] has told me everything about you, good and bad.

I hope your relationship gets better.”

He then sent me e-mails that are supposedly forwards directly from my wife, she claims they have been edited, but she no longer has the originals in her e-mail account. Part of me wants to believe her half because I want to trust her, but also because he is definitely acting quite unstable and crazy. However, other rational side of me wants to know why the hell she would have deleted the e-mails unless they contained something she shouldn’t have been writing. Here are some of the excerpts from the forwards:
“Subject: Dear MY Mr. Wonderful
I have so many things I want to tell you. I don't really know where to begin. 

I hope you know how much you mean to me and how much I genuinely love you. I truly have fallen for you. I don't know how it happened. Well I sort of do. The first night we met my soul opened up to you and you let me be me. You appreciated me. You made me feel things I had given up hope on ever feeling again. But it so much more than just feelings. I would do anything for you. I wish we could be together so I was able to love you the way you deserve and need to be loved. I will respect you the way you deserve. I know I could make you happy. I will guard your heart and cherish it. And I know you'd do the same for me. I only want to do right by and for you….
I guess I should send this email now. I will talk to tomorrow/today sometime. I pray you get a restful sleep tonight and have a good day. I love you.”
“Hold on, to me as we go
As we roll down this unfamiliar road
And although this wave is stringing us along
Just know you're not alone
Cause I'm going to make this place your home

Settle down, it'll all be clear
Don't pay no mind to the demons
They fill you with fear
The trouble it might drag you down
If you get lost, you can always be found

Just know you're not alone
Cause I'm going to make this place your home

These lyrics are of from Phillip Phillips new single... I think about you all the time, but when I was watching American idol last night and I heard the lyrics I had to replay it twice because I was just thinking about you and the many conversations we have had. You tell me that you have never had a friend like me before; I want you to know that I'm not going anywhere. I will be your best friend forever. And when I say forever to you I mean for eternity. I want you to "Hold on, to me as we go as we roll down this unfamiliar road." I hope that you will not let me go. We will get through this together. I know you've had many people fall in love with you, I hope that you know that I'm different. I love you and want only the best for you.

You have made me feel beautiful. No one has EVER made me feel that way, ever. You have helped me actually cope with things that I have not been allowing myself to cope with. You, [Removed], have renewed my hope. My hope has been shaken and broken. You renewed my hope. Period.”

Now aside from the questions I have about this whole thing – I am also concerned about another part of my wife’s behavior. She has always in some way feuded with my mother; and constantly tells me things that she says my mom says when I’m not around. I’ve always believed her, because honestly – I know my mom thought I should have married someone else, and I could see her making the comments. Recently however, I’ve begun to question my wife’s honesty with me, due to the situation described above. To complicate things more, she is now pregnant with our first child (it is ours, I’ve done the math). We had a BBQ to reveal that we were pregnant last week and my wife told me about more comments that my mother had made. She stated that a friend of ours was standing right there when the comment was made, and that her and my wife had talked about it after my mother walked away. My wife said that our friend was shocked that my mother would make the comment that she made, and that she had previously thought that my wife and my mother had a good relationship, and that she didn’t realize it was like that. Since I have been questioning whether or not my wife is being truthful with me, I decided this was the perfect opportunity to find out. I talked with the friend privately, and begged her not to bring this up otherwise, but asked if she remembered any comments made by my mother at the BBQ to Cassie that was uncalled for. She promised that she couldn’t recall anything like that. So now, I’m wondering if my wife is purposely trying to be divisive between us and my mother. 

As a quick note, my wife’s mother was mentally unstable and had drug issues. My wife does not have drug issues, but I think she does have some dispositions towards mental instability; however she has always pushed through it and of her and her siblings is the only one who seems to have adjusted and been able to function regularly and contribute to society. I have known her for over 12 years, and thought I understood her emotional/mental issues and considered them relatively minor. 
My question is am I crazy for trusting her? Am I reading too much into what went on and should I just let it go and support my wife. Now I know that I am responsible for some of this. We should have never been swinging, as I know now that it is just asking for trouble in our relationship. I had thought we were committed and strong enough to enjoy that together, but I now know that it is just opening the door for problems, no matter the state of a relationship. I take full responsibility for that mistake; however, I need to know if my wife is honest with me, or if I am being naïve. I don’t know where to turn with this information, because so much of it contains stuff I am not comfortable sharing with friends or family. Please, any help is appreciated.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You need to have a paternity test on this baby. 'Doing the Math' isn't a very reliable method of figuring it out, especially if she and the swinger dude got it on on their own without you knowing. Which I suspect they probably did.


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

Your wife extending her friendship with this other man (OM) was a mistake for starters, she obviously had an emotional affair (EA) with him after the play sessions, or possibly physical affair. You can't move on or trust her until she comes clean. A no contact letter from her, okayed by you should be sent to him. You on your own without telling your wife should give his wife the evidence you have of the affair, swingers or not she has a right to know. Good luck!


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

Do you think she was having an affair, and then came to her senses and tried to break it off - but he wasn't having it? Which is why he just wouldn't stop contacting her and then contacted me desperately to try and get back at her for breaking it off?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

therunawayblue said:


> Do you think she was having an affair, and then came to her senses and tried to break it off - but he wasn't having it? Which is why he just wouldn't stop contacting her and then contacted me desperately to try and get back at her for breaking it off?


That's definitely one possibility.


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm trying to be as honest as possible with myself, but I just don't want to believe it... I don't want it to be true because I feel so betrayed. I know we chose to do things that we shouldn't have and I should have been smarter than that; but I thought I could trust her. Now I don't even know if I can trust what she tells me other people say. I just don't know how to deal with this...


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## Encore DT (May 29, 2012)

I would also recommend taking an STD test and making your wife take one.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

therunawayblue said:


> I'm trying to be as honest as possible with myself, but I just don't want to believe it... I don't want it to be true because I feel so betrayed. I know we chose to do things that we shouldn't have and I should have been smarter than that; but I thought I could trust her. Now I don't even know if I can trust what she tells me other people say. I just don't know how to deal with this...


We've all been there, sorry to say.

One thing you DO need to realize, though, is that if she did cheat, it is NOT YOUR FAULT. AT ALL. Yes, take your share of the responsibility for the bad decisions made with her and in your marriage, but DO NOT take ANY responsibility for her cheating. That is ALL on her. 100% ALL of it.

State of the marriage - 50% on you 50% on her
Her choice to cheat - 100% on her

If you want to know what's really going on with her (and you SHOULD want to know, and not bury your head in the sand), you should peek at her texts, emails, bank accounts etc and see what you find.


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

Encore DT said:


> I would also recommend taking an STD test and making your wife take one.


We had some possible pregnancy complications a couple of weeks ago and they took a pap sample which came back regular. They would test for STDs in that, wouldn't they?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

therunawayblue said:


> We had some possible pregnancy complications a couple of weeks ago and they took a pap sample which came back regular. They would test for STDs in that, wouldn't they?


Nope.


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## Encore DT (May 29, 2012)

therunawayblue said:


> We had some possible pregnancy complications a couple of weeks ago and they took a pap sample which came back regular. They would test for STDs in that, wouldn't they?


Not necessarily. PAP Smears and STD's are almost separate worlds. A PAP Smear may or may not include HPV testing. Either way you look at it, a PAP Smear is not considered a method of "comprehensive STD testing" and can easily miss things like Chlamydia, Gonorrhea and (God forbid) HIV.


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

Can't stop wondering about couples who blur the relationship borders and then are shocked to know that it has backfired spectacularly.


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

costa200 said:


> Can't stop wondering about couples who blur the relationship borders and then are shocked to know that it has backfired spectacularly.


I understand your sentiment, but our borders were not blurry - they were completely discussed and understood by each of us. I know it is not ideal or traditional, and I also know that I would not choose to do it again, BUT our boundaries were set and understood. I can't say I'm completely surprised or shocked, but I am hurt.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Definitely look into STD testing. PAP smears test for cervical cancer. Cervical cancer can be related to HPV (genital warts) but a pap smear doesn't specifically test for the presence of the HPV virus. A full STD panel has to be specifically requested and could involve both tissue samples similar to the pap and bloodwork.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

I've read only until the half of your post. I will read the rest. Ask him for screenshots of these mail so that they include the senders information. You cannot edit received mail. But you can modify forwarded mail


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> Some time ago, I’d say about 1 year ago after much discussion my wife and I decided to try out a local swingers club.


And then, things went wrong. No, s***, Sherlock?

Damn.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude, but this never goes well.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> I've read only until the half of your post. I will read the rest. Ask him for screenshots of these mail so that they include the senders information. You cannot edit received mail. But you can modify forwarded mail


Well, you can, if you are good at doing it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

You mean photoshop?


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

therunawayblue said:


> I understand your sentiment, but our borders were not blurry - they were completely discussed and understood by each of us. I know it is not ideal or traditional, and I also know that I would not choose to do it again, BUT our boundaries were set and understood. I can't say I'm completely surprised or shocked, but I am hurt.


The thing is, once you open certain doors words are meaningless, that's the real blurring right there. I'm not saying your wife in the right here, because she clearly isn't. You had your own set of boundaries, unconventional as they might be, but she forgot all about those apparently. 

But alas... You're here now, and i'm pretty sure you'll get some solid advice on how to deal with this. Some of these guys learned this stuff the hard way.


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> I've read only until the half of your post. I will read the rest. Ask him for screenshots of these mail so that they include the senders information. You cannot edit received mail. But you can modify forwarded mail


I realized when the OM text me that he sent me screen shots of the e-mail that were taken from his phone. Like a screenshot of his phone (not a photo of the computer screen). I am just not sure how to be sure if they are authentic... I recognize that it is an android OS, but I'm pretty sure he could send an e-mail from anywhere and change the contact name in his phone and that is what would show up at the top. It doesn't actually show the sender's address or anything. I have already told the OM not to contact us, but do you think it would be best for me to contact him to ask to see original e-mail screen shots, or something to that nature? Is it even worth it? 

I feel like my wife has to be hiding something from me. There is no way her "I was just mad so I deleted the e-mails" excuse is valid, there had to be something to hide. On the other hand, I completely believe this guy would fabricate emails to either dig at her or try to get between us... Also, I am worried about my wife's pregnancy. She already has a tendency for high anxiety, and I'm worried that if I push the issue I could put the pregnancy at risk. I really do believe that the child is mine - as she did not have any chance as far as I know to see the OM since her last period, and we had sex at 14 days on the nose, and she happened to spot later that day which is consistent with ovulation. Thoughts? Advice?


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Go back and read your first post. Can you trust your wife ?? Read the 1st and tell yourself NO you can't. If you and your mom have a good relationship, I can see your wife being threaten by it from what you say about her family. But I don't understand why you question her honesty, she has NONE. Go back and read ur own 1st post. All that shady stuff, and you still have to ask. AND yeah you need a DNA, then a polygraph. She defied you time and time again, and even played touchy feely in the bar. Whats to question. As much as she was into this guy, can you REALLY say they didn't hookup while you was at work ??


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

> I really do believe that the child is mine


No you don't. Once the child is born and you spot something that may seem similar to a trait of other man you are going have this on your mind eating at you for the rest of your life. Get some testing done ASAP. You know you can be in for 18 years of child support for a kid that ain't years.


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

I think you guys are right... I haven't said anything yet, but I'm building a case to present to my wife that is hopefully convincing enough to force her to tell me the whole truth. I wish I could get into the OM's e-mail and take all of the screen shots I want, but I have managed to get him to send me two, which appear to be authentic inbox messages from my wife. 

I also have been going through our cellphone records. I created a spreadsheet to sort out her text messages and voice communication with the OMs number. Over two months they exchanged 4520 Text Messages including 114 picture messages. They also spent a total of 45 hours talking on the phone during the same time period. I'm hoping with the two screen shots that I have plus this information I will be able to put enough pressure on her to force her into the truth...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

That *might* do it, although you still don't have anything incontrovertible. There are ways to download deleted texts and stuff from phones - I don't know anything about it myself but I've seen others on here talk about it. You should also try hacking her email or getting a keylogger on her computer or something.

Can you look thru her phone ?

You could also put a VAR in her car. If she talks to him that much it shouldn't take long to find out exactly what she's saying to him.


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

The thing is she doesn't really talk to him anymore. I'm going to look into restoring deleted text messages - I never thought of it, but I've been able to restore deleted files on a computer before, so it can't be that different. Thanks for the advice.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

For now I think you are on the right path.
gather the evidence and make a strong case then confront.

An effective confrontation will hopefully leed to an admmission and the some help.

See with admitting to a problem...any problem then how does one get the help they need.

So INHO you keep going and make a case that she can not deny.

Then she can go get the help to affair proof her marriage.

As far as trust goes, it takes time and the more heavy lifting your wife does in rebuilding the trust the sooner it will come back.

So. *you* can't rebuild the trust in her, only she can do that.


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## therunawayblue (Jul 18, 2012)

I honestly don't know how anyone keeps their cool while building a case of evidence like I am trying to do. My wife got upset at something I said tonight and was saying some really hurtful things... she is sensitive right now due to being pregnant, but I feel pretty sensitive as well due to the secret I'm holding. It took every ounce of my strength not to just blurt out the half-case I have compiled in my mind and pressure her to tell me the truth. 

I know I will be better off getting all of the evidence together that I possibly can, but sometimes it is really, really hard to keep my cool.


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## Wanting1 (Apr 26, 2012)

Definitely get that paternity test. I'm really starting to come around to the idea of every child being given one at birth. Maybe not feasible, but think of the heartache it would save.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Stay strong. How do you _know_ she doesn't talk to him any more??


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Get a paternity test as soon as possible. If they do an amino test on her, I believe they can do it as part of it. You need to privately talk to the doctor about this.

From the time she spent with him, his words, his continued pursuit of her, and her constant defending of him, it's obvious they had an affair behind your back. It was a full on PA too. He maybe wouldn't leave his wife for her, or maybe wouldn't be exclusive with her, but something hasgit them in a lovers spat at the moment. The trouble is, that just because the affair is quiet now she could start back up with him at any time.

Have you considered contacting his wife and ask her ? The three of them may have been meeting up behind you back for quite a while.

Im very sorry you are going through this. Your wife didn't stick within your agreed upon rules and she strayed into betraying you and cheating.

You need to make sure you are not raising this scumbags baby.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Your wife fell for this OM, she asked more, she wanted him, he rejected her, told her to work things with you (he's a habitual swinger, he have seen this before, knows fun from feelings), she went nuts and blocked him. He's the typical who can't be rejected, he wanted to appear the nice guy anyway, he wanted to explay himself, she didn't cave in, he got mad and outed her, she's covering her tracks.

DNA test asap.

Sorry man.


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