# New here... interesting...



## HowBoutThemApples

I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢

If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who. 

Signed... 
Still fighting for each other


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## oldshirt

One must first differentiate between disagreement and character flaw. 

If a couple disagrees on which end of the toothpaste tube to squeeze or whether the toilet seat should be left up or down, those things are worth discussion and finding mutual agreement and solution etc. 

However things like abuse, addiction, cruelty, infidelity, abject disrespect etc are character flaws and part of someone's being. 


You can "fight" for the marriage but in the end you are fighting for a turd. 

Many of us were raised to believe that divorce is bad or wrong. 

But as we've lived and learned and seen the world for what it is and have seen what people do it to each other in this world, many of us now realize that divorce is often the saving grace and is often the way out of bondage and towards a better life free of those that would harm us. 

Some conflicts between good people are worth working out. 

Other things require getting away from a bad person that is toxic to us and causing harm and destruction in our lives. 

Wisdom is knowing the difference.


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## oldshirt

HowBoutThemApples said:


> If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.


If you fight for a turd and win, you have just won yourself a turd for a prize.


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## HowBoutThemApples

Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy. 

Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case. 

Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex: 
-Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
-Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.

As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.


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## Lostinthought61

Addiction and Infidelity can both be worked out if and only if there is remorse, there is corrective actions, corrective behavior, and acknowledgement of transgression and/or addictions....because anything short of that should be a none starter. there are a number of stories on here where the betrayed spouse wanted to keep the marriage together and we have supported them only if the above requirements have been addressed. I think your trying to generalize something that is not worthy of generalization, every marriage is different. Socrates would have had a field day with you.


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## jlg07

I think that you say there is a push for divorce here may be correct, but I think that is due to the POSTS that make it to these forums. By the time folks make it here to post, there are some significant issues going on in the marriage and many of the long-timers here have seen this OVER AND OVER again. There def are patterns to the behaviors, and they have been worked over many many times. Many of these, the solution IS divorce. There are also a bunch where working through the issue is encouraged (until the time when it really gets hopeless or futile).


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## sokillme

HowBoutThemApples said:


> I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢
> 
> If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.
> 
> Signed...
> Still fighting for each other


I'm all for fighting for each other until their is abuse at that point it's time to move on in my mind.

Like @jlg07 says by the time most people post on here their is horrible abuse. Other times when there is not I often suggest marriage counseling.


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## oldshirt

HowBoutThemApples said:


> Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.
> 
> Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.
> 
> Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
> -Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
> -Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.
> 
> As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.


I think you are jumping to conclusions too much if you are thinking that anyone is saying that people "must" divorce. I think you are the one being a little too harsh on the posters here. 

While I agree that each individual marriage should be considered on it's own merits, I do believe that these things should be looked at against the backdrop of the big picture and viewed from the context of general character. 

I do not think that infidelity or abuse or addiction etc occur in a vacuum or that there are all that many "isolated incidents" of those things occurring. Often there is a longstanding history of bad behavior and entitlement and selfishness. 

Often abusing behavior, chemical/alcohol abuse and even emotional and physical abuse are all rolled into one. 

Rarely is someone a fine, upstanding citizen and loving and faithful spouse for 30 years and then just goes out and cheats one day. It is usually a pattern and usually a process.

Many times the BS only knows the tiny tip of iceberg. 

Many of these things are character and bad behavior issues of the perpetuator and not a relationship issue. As it is not a relationship issue, it is not something that can readily be "worked out" as a couple. 

Can an individual change their behavior and exercise control over themselves?? Yes, of course and some ultimately do. But it takes great effort and commitment and the recidivism rate is very high. 

Again, is it a disagreement between two good people who are both committed to finding a mutually beneficial solution and both are committed to putting in the heavy lifting? 

Or are the issues due to bad behavior and bad character of one or even both individuals? 

If someone is bullying and picking on and mistreating my kids, I do not tell my kids to go into counseling with them and talk about the reasons and rationale behind the mistreatment - I tell them to get away from their tormentors and not associate with them and to cut them out of their lives. …..and even to kick their @$$ and defend themselves if they have to. 

I see no difference here. If someone is mistreating someone and inflicting pain and torment upon them - my advice is to defend themselves accordingly and get away from them. 

I do not negotiate with tyrants or terrorists.


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## HowBoutThemApples

I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.

However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though. 

Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.

My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship. 

Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media. 

I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.


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## David Darling

As a relative newcomer my first impression was exactly the same as the OP - I was surprised how quickly divorce is suggested - sometimes in the first response.


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## HowBoutThemApples

DavidDarling... exactly!! I’m glad I’m not the only one to notice that. I know I’m not just being harsh or over exaggerating either.


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## BluesPower

HowBoutThemApples said:


> I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.
> 
> However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.
> 
> Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.
> 
> My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.
> 
> Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.
> 
> I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.





David Darling said:


> As a relative newcomer my first impression was exactly the same as the OP - I was surprised how quickly divorce is suggested - sometimes in the first response.


Well, @HowBoutThemApples you make a lot of generalizations. So, if you are male or female, don't know which, so you sound like a man that had his wife cheat on him an took her back, for what, because she is "Sorry"? 

Or, if you are a women, and your husband cheated on you, and you took him back? Why, because he was having a bad day? He just met her and could not control himself? 

Or what, no infidelity, then what form of abuse, emotional, physical, low sex / no sex. 

No one here usually wants people to divorce for no reason, but what we see as reality, what we have been through, what our friends have been through, there are ways that things work and ways that they don't. 

A man or woman that catches their spouse cheating and tries to "Nice" them back is a fool. Not only does it not work, it is weak. The cheating spouse in those cases almost always cheats again, and even if they don't the marriage is usually a shadow of what it used to be. The betrayed spouse is almost always the one in the relationship that settles, and their spouse never has respect for them again. 

Those case we advise strength, and usually divorce. 

Then there are cases where, whatever the behavior, where only ONE member is actively working to improve the relationship. Well, that just never works, so yeah, most of the time we recommend divorce. We know how it will work out for the spouse that is doing all the work and wondering why it is not helping. 

But tell us your story, maybe you have a different view...


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## personofinterest

OP, I have to ask… when did you cheat on your spouse? And if not in Fidelity, what pattern of behavior or act is it that you have committed that you think we would recommend divorce 4? Rarely is anyone this defensive and less they are the one who has the flaw that usually creates the suggestion for divorce.


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## Lostinthought61

Dr. Phil tells the story that he met a couple who was celebrating 50 years together, and he asked them what was there secret to being married so long. The wife spoke and said that life together was not always easy and there were times when i fell out of love with him but he had enough love for me that made me stay and there was times he was out of love for me, and during those times i had enough love for him that he stayed, but we were never out of love for each other at the same time. 

and maybe that is the secret to a lasting marriage.


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## arbitrator

HowBoutThemApples said:


> I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢
> 
> If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.
> 
> Signed...
> Still fighting for each other


*For more common things like psychological control issues, physical and mental illness, family responsibilities, alcohol and drug addiction, et. al., I firmly believe as you do! I will try my best to fight for them, knowing that while there may be an element of hope, there are no firm guarantees!

But with due regard to wanton, deceptive infidelity and marital cheating, and with extremely rare exception, I cannot!*


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## jlg07

"Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media. "

My wife and I are the same, and our friends say that "well YOU two are just perfect -- you never have problems". I tell them just because YOU don't see that we argue and have problems doesn't mean we don't. We just work through them together without advertising to the whole world.

One thing I think you are missing in these is the context where folks say to divorce.
For the MOST part it isn't, my H won't put the toilet seat down, he is so inconsiderate type of stuff.
LOTS of the D suggestions are due to REALLY crazy abusive/manipulative interactions or infidelity (and any infidelity will almost ALWAYS have get divorced in the opinions due to the fact that a lot folks here have lived through it and that's how they filter the issue).

One thing you WILL find here -- VERY harsh/severe responses, especially where cheating is involved. MANY of those are to force the poster to thing and/or get angry because they are in a fog and not able to process things normally. Yes, I find especially early on in these posts, that they are sometimes WAY too harsh and can actually push people away, but for the most part they are done to give them a 2x4 rather than out of being mean.


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## samyeagar

HowBoutThemApples said:


> I’ve been reading lots of posts & replies. It seems very common for some to quickly judge & insist the poster rush to divorce. What happened to fighting through “the good & the bad times”?? Even if 1 spouse wrongs the other, why is that automatic DIVORCE?? This mentality is a big part of why our divorce rate is so dang high. 😢
> 
> If you love them, fight for them - regardless of who wronged who.
> 
> Signed...
> Still fighting for each other


Marriages happening between two people who never had any business marrying each other is why our divorce rate is so dang high.



HowBoutThemApples said:


> I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.
> 
> However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.
> 
> Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think *if we love someone, we will fight to make things work* - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.
> 
> My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.
> 
> Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.
> 
> I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.


Absolutely, and for myself, I know with certainty that infidelity or anything else that breaks my trust, will cause me to no longer be in love the person I am with, thus I will divorce them. Case in point, my ex-wife. And I do not feel one bit bad or guilty about it.


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## personofinterest

It's rather interesting when a new person registers, and the first thread they start is basically to shame all the other members for their advice.

Methinks there's an EQ problem here....


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## Bananapeel

The issue that you are failing to see is most of us here want people to be in healthy and happy relationships. If they aren't they can either choose to fight for it or call it quits, and there isn't a universal response. The people that already have a healthy self-esteem and boundaries don't need anyone here giving them advice, but the posters that are out of their element need to decide for themselves if the person they are thinking about fighting for is healthy relationship material or will take them for a long unhappy ride. 

My POV is that I am an emotionally healthy and giving man and expect an emotionally healthy and giving partner in return, and that is not negotiable. I also recognize that the time I have on this earth is limited and I do not believe in wasting it on people that aren't worthy of it, and that is also not negotiable. I advocate for other people to make decisions that they are proud of, whether that is staying in a relationship or recognizing when it is time to end one really is immaterial as long as the person is doing what is right for them. Most of the major problems that people come on this board to ask advice for really should be handled with divorce because the odds of fixing a major character flaw in a partner that has no desire to change is infinitesimally low. 

As far as your comment about loving someone, you have a naïve POV. At a certain age and experience you'll realize that love is not unconditional except in very limited situations (e.g. between parents and their children) and for everyone else it is conditional. That means love for a person can fade or disappear given certain situations like abuse and infidelity...so then what is the point of fighting for those people?? A healthier outlook is choosing to only be with someone that wants to be with you and is committed towards it, and to get rid of those that don't fit that paradigm.


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## farsidejunky

These are your boundaries. Just as everyone else is free to have their own boundaries.


HowBoutThemApples said:


> Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.
> 
> Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.
> 
> Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
> -Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
> -Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.
> 
> As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## HowBoutThemApples

personofinterest said:


> OP, I have to ask… when did you cheat on your spouse? And if not in Fidelity, what pattern of behavior or act is it that you have committed that you think we would recommend divorce 4? Rarely is anyone this defensive and less they are the one who has the flaw that usually creates the suggestion for divorce.


Not trying to be defensive. I was only making an observation of what I was seeing to be so common. I totally understand many truly are better off & I’m not saying divorce shouldn’t be suggested. I know a few who should have never married & should get divorced themselves. I know some who 1 or the other has cheated & they reconciled. I know some who both have cheated & they reconciled. Then I know others who went straight for divorce. I get it’s different for each couple. I’m just new here & still learning my way around how the minds of the seasoned work.


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## HowBoutThemApples

farsidejunky said:


> These are your boundaries. Just as everyone else is free to have their own boundaries.
> 
> 
> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.
> 
> You are so right -
> not disagreeing with that at all.
> 
> Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.
> 
> Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
> -Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
> -Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.
> 
> As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


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## HowBoutThemApples

farsidejunky said:


> These are your boundaries. Just as everyone else is free to have their own boundaries.[
> 
> You are so right -
> not disagreeing with that at all.
> 
> Sorry for the repost - the previous reply got my response mixed in the middle. I’m still figuring all this out.


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## 2ntnuf

HowBoutThemApples said:


> Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, *rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.
> *


Then, you go on to say:



HowBoutThemApples said:


> Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.


I find it odd that you believe one and not the other, until the other side is heard. 



HowBoutThemApples said:


> Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
> -Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
> -Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.
> 
> As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.


Most times, being there is "No Fault" divorce, there doesn't have to be any issue, just a desire not to be married any longer.


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## HowBoutThemApples

I do see your point about desiring a healthy & happy relationship. I like what you said for the most part. However, I do disagree when you assume my POV is “naive”. I kind of laughed at that point. I definitely have enough age & experience to know about unconditional love. I may be younger than yourself, I don’t know, but I’m not a starter in this roller coasters of life. I’m new to TAM, not marriage.

One difference I have from some that may have something to do with my differences of views with some comments is that many of the OP are or have been divorced whereas I am not nor have I ever been. From our parents down, including siblings, my SO & I are the only couple in our family who have never divorced... well, I do have a sibling who is still early in marriage & young on her first (23, married 3 yrs). All others have divorced at least once, most multiple times; 1 is dating a potential #5. I’m not opposed to divorce as it may have come across, & I’m not judging, neither here or in our family/friends, just saying I think this is a big part of why we choose to fight harder through the bad times instead of giving up. 😊



Bananapeel said:


> The issue that you are failing to see is most of us here want people to be in healthy and happy relationships. If they aren't they can either choose to fight for it or call it quits, and there isn't a universal response. The people that already have a healthy self-esteem and boundaries don't need anyone here giving them advice, but the posters that are out of their element need to decide for themselves if the person they are thinking about fighting for is healthy relationship material or will take them for a long unhappy ride.
> 
> My POV is that I am an emotionally healthy and giving man and expect an emotionally healthy and giving partner in return, and that is not negotiable. I also recognize that the time I have on this earth is limited and I do not believe in wasting it on people that aren't worthy of it, and that is also not negotiable. I advocate for other people to make decisions that they are proud of, whether that is staying in a relationship or recognizing when it is time to end one really is immaterial as long as the person is doing what is right for them. Most of the major problems that people come on this board to ask advice for really should be handled with divorce because the odds of fixing a major character flaw in a partner that has no desire to change is infinitesimally low.
> 
> As far as your comment about loving someone, you have a naïve POV. At a certain age and experience you'll realize that love is not unconditional except in very limited situations (e.g. between parents and their children) and for everyone else it is conditional. That means love for a person can fade or disappear given certain situations like abuse and infidelity...so then what is the point of fighting for those people?? A healthier outlook is choosing to only be with someone that wants to be with you and is committed towards it, and to get rid of those that don't fit that paradigm.


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## HowBoutThemApples

In the 2nd quote, I was meaning physical or verbal abuse, not abuse of drugs or alcohol. But, I do understand addiction can be just as bad or worse in some cases. My FIL was a bad alcoholic until a few years after my MIL divorced him. They were married 20-something yrs. It wasn’t until he had his last major stroke that he finally stopped drinking & smoking. He was actually drunk when I met him... & during that last stroke stay, he remained legally intoxicated for 3 days. 

I think I just saw SO many suggesting divorce so quick that it seemed to be an automatic response. I do understand it’s truly the answer for many. I just think it’s more case by case rather than “you did this - there’s no hope - divorce!” That’s how it was looking as a pattern to me. I enjoy these discussions though to get a better idea of everyone’s thoughts & where you’re coming from. 



2ntnuf said:


> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> Addictions & infidelity can still be worked through to make it to the other side. To each their own but, *rushing to tell someone else they must divorce without truly knowing the person(s) involved or their background is pretty heavy.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Then, you go on to say:
> 
> 
> 
> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> Abuse - sure. Nobody should live in fear of their life, if that’s the case.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I find it odd that you believe one and not the other, until the other side is heard.
> 
> 
> 
> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> Disrespect - that can depend what one’s definition of disrespect is... ex:
> -Husband A considers his wife disrespectful bc she put him on blast in front of a group of their friends.
> -Husband B considers his wife disrespectful bc she spent time with a long time girl friend he dislikes or disapproves of.
> 
> As far as these cases go with disrespect, I’d agree Husband A has a right to be upset & repeated “disrespect” like this would be an issue. However, I would disagree that Husband B has a right to be upset or choose his wife’s friends. That’s not grounds for divorce, although he may twist that into “disrespect” based on his own “rules”. Husband B isn’t disrespected, he’s just manipulative.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most times, being there is "No Fault" divorce, there doesn't have to be any issue, just a desire not to be married any longer.
Click to expand...


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## HowBoutThemApples

FIRST... what’s “an EQ problem”?? 🤔

Im not “shaming” anyone. I was only making an observation of what it looked like from a newbie POV. That’s what was standing out to me. I’m only trying to get a better understanding of why some think the way they do - why suggest divorce so quick rather than help someone walk through fighting for their marriage?! Not judging, just trying to understand. I think this is largely in part bc I have been in that fight & had a few on my team supporting us through it instead of suggesting we give up.




personofinterest said:


> It's rather interesting when a new person registers, and the first thread they start is basically to shame all the other members for their advice.
> 
> Methinks there's an EQ problem here....


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## Adelais

@HowBoutThemApples, welcome to TAM!

Many people have experienced adultery or other abuse here, and they see the futility of remaining in a marriage with an unrepentant cheater.

Even if a spouse stops cheating, reconciliation is a very arduous process, fraught by many ups and downs.

You are right, the call to "divorce!," with torches raised, is very prevalent. But not all will respond that way. Just the ones with the most time on their hands and loudest keyboards.
@sokillme doesn't think reconciliation is worth it. 

I do. Especially when children are involved, or the marriage was already a long one by the time the adultery occurred. I am reconciled with a spouse who cheated 9 years ago. I'm glad I reconciled. Our oldest son recently told us that he is glad we stayed together. That was a wonderful confirmation to us that we did the right thing, even though it has been a long haul.

Regarding posters who are hostile to you, stalk you, or otherwise attempt to draw you into a fight by insulting you: you can use a feature in your user control panel to ignore them. It doesn't make them go away if someone quotes them, but it reduces the annoyance.


----------



## sokillme

Araucaria said:


> @HowBoutThemApples, welcome to TAM!
> 
> Many people have experienced adultery or other abuse here, and they see the futility of remaining in a marriage with an unrepentant cheater.
> 
> Even if a spouse stops cheating, reconciliation is a very arduous process, fraught by many ups and downs.
> 
> You are right, the call to "divorce!," with torches raised, is very prevalent. But not all will respond that way. Just the ones with the most time on their hands and loudest keyboards.
> 
> @sokillme doesn't think reconciliation is worth it.
> 
> I do. Especially when children are involved, or the marriage was already a long one by the time the adultery occurred. I am reconciled with a spouse who cheated 9 years ago. I'm glad I reconciled. Our oldest son recently told us that he is glad we stayed together. That was a wonderful confirmation to us that we did the right thing, even though it has been a long haul.
> 
> Regarding posters who are hostile to you, stalk you, or otherwise attempt to draw you into a fight by insulting you: you can use a feature in your user control panel to ignore them. It doesn't make them go away if someone quotes them, but it reduces the annoyance.


Your not wrong, but you have to understand from my point of view my parents divorced though and it actually brought me closer to my Father. I was already close with my Mom. I cherish the times I spend with him when he was single. I am probably closer to him then my other friends are with their Dads still to this day. I grew up alright, any damage the divorce did me would probably be no worse them them staying together. 

For instance I have a friend whose wife is not affectionate at all. Turns out her parents got divorce a few years after he married her. As the cliche goes her parents basically stayed in a dead marriage for years for the kids. Problem is the marriage that was modeled for her was one where there was no affection and hence she doesn't see that as a necessary part of her marriage. As far as I can tell from what he tells me they have a very business like marriage where the are good friends and get along well, but he craves physical intimacy and not just sex which she is willing to have out of duty. She doesn't know any better and he is really not happy.

My point is staying together for the kids doesn't necessarily mean they are going to turn out better especially if it's a dead marriage or worse if there is ongoing abuse.

As I have said before there are folks who give advice whose primary concern is saving the OP marriage, and folks who give advice whose primary concern is saving the OP's life. I will leave it up to the poster who has their best interest at heart. 

By the way I am mostly big on divorce when there is infidelity, abuse or long term dead bedrooms. All marriages have problems and the grass is not always greener.

Then again marriage for marriage sake is a trap. All things in life end. Good marriage and bad.


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## HowBoutThemApples

@Araucaria & @sokillme
Thank you both for your replies. 

Yes, adultery has occurred in my marriage as well. We have both made poor choices but, we always chose each other in the end. Our poor choices don’t mean we don’t love each other, just that we are human & maybe that is a weakness?! I don’t know. We have a lot of years together/married & we have kids. By most accounts, we have a happy home & a great relationship. We take turns on the hi-low teeter totter but we always level out again. There’s never been any abuse of any kind (physical, mental, verbal, drugs or alcohol). We don’t fight & we don’t even argue a lot. Honestly, the biggest issue we have had is our sex life.


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## aine

HowBoutThemApples said:


> I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.
> 
> However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.
> 
> Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.
> 
> My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.
> 
> Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.
> 
> I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.


I think you have been very quick to judge posters on this forum. I for one am still with my cheating/ recovering Alcoholic husband, I got great advice here, it was still my decision to go or stay, no one else makes that decision. Of course, people who come here have usually been cheated on or abused in some way and readers ought to know that colours some of the responses, rightly so. 

And NO, not everyone is worth fighting for, as you put it, some people should be kicked to the kerb when they have had plenty of opportunities to make right what they have done, i.e. lying, cheating, drinking, etc. No one should ever be a doormat for anyone, all too often 'righteou's people like you make poor abused spouses stay on longer in relationships than they should have with their 'better or worse' mantra.

As for your own relationship and your enthusiasm about it, good for you though I sense 'the lady doth protest too much' and if your relationship is so wonderful how on earth could you ever begin 'to walk a mile in the shoes' of those who find themselves in the situations they do on TAM.

Finally, I do not see on what premise you base your conclusion that you would have been told to divorce. Noone on TAM tells people in relationships

who to quote you "almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor" and are the envy of your family. Really, you ought to be less judgemental and realise that you are talking about chalk and cheese. :scratchhead: 

Nevertheless, if you can take constructive critique, I welcome you to TAM:grin2::laugh:


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## sokillme

HowBoutThemApples said:


> @Araucaria & @sokillme
> Thank you both for your replies.
> 
> Yes, adultery has occurred in my marriage as well. We have both made poor choices but, we always chose each other in the end. Our poor choices don’t mean we don’t love each other, just that we are human & maybe that is a weakness?! I don’t know. We have a lot of years together/married & we have kids. By most accounts, we have a happy home & a great relationship. We take turns on the hi-low teeter totter but we always level out again. There’s never been any abuse of any kind (physical, mental, verbal, drugs or alcohol). We don’t fight & we don’t even argue a lot. Honestly, the biggest issue we have had is our sex life.


First off adultery is probably one of the worst forms of abuse you can commit against a person so not sure how you can argue there was never any abuse in your marriage. 

Anyway from my own perspective love would not necessarily be good reason to stay in a marriage per say, though I always seems to be listed as the primary reason people say even in the worst marriages. I have no doubt for instance that women whose husband's repeatedly physically abuse them also stay in their marriages because they love those husband. In their own twisted way the abusive husband probably feels he loves his wife too. Who cares, I don't think anyone would argue those marriages should continue because of love.

Besides that most people have the potential to love any number of others. It's not really that rare unlike what the songs say. What is rare is character.

Once one of the those types of things I listed in my last post happen I would counsel that the most important factor you should use to decide whether to stay or go would be quality of life. That would include your kids' lives as well, your financial situation. In the end that would be what I would decide on. I know I can love again so love wouldn't be a big factor.

Now I haven't even gotten into the fact of whether it's good for society that dead marriage's or marriages where one partner has been terribly abusive (this includes long term adultery) to the other continue after that. Hint - it's not.


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## HowBoutThemApples

Did you even read my comment or just skim through?? You’re judging ME while accusing me of judging (not the case at all).

You “quoted” me as saying “everyone is worth fighting for” when that is NOT what I said!! My exact words were “I THINK SOME COULD STILL BE WORTH FIGHTING FOR”. I also said I think “if we love each other, we will fight for each other until “we” reach our own limits”. How are you getting so much of what I said twisted?! 

If you had kept reading & caught my most recent reply before yours, you’d see what basis. Just bc I didn’t divulge details right away didn’t mean D wouldn’t be suggested at some point. Some of the few close to us who know our backstory have been surprised we have survived all these years. Our MC didn’t know if we would survive either... that was back in 2010. 

And I’m “all too righteous”?? Give me a break!! You have proven you don’t read or pay attention to what you read before responding or quoting. I am far from judgmental or righteous. 

Here’s some “constructive critique” for yourself... if you intend to quote others & respond so harshly, at least be sure you’ve actually read what you’re quoting & are quoting them correctly! 





aine said:


> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do see a difference between a bully (kids) vs a spouse - you have not made a promise or commitment to the bully.
> 
> However, I do understand several points madenin the replies. I don’t know how to quote her to show what I’m replying to though.
> 
> Even if someone does have a pattern of less than perfect behavior/character, I think some could still be worth fighting for. Everyone has flaws, nobody is perfect. I think if we love someone, we will fight to make things work - until “we” reach our own limit of it no longer being worth the effort.
> 
> My SO & I have had a rocky marriage. We’ve had many ups & downs. We are like a teeter totter at times where one isnup & the other is down then we switch. We have both been at points of ready to call it quits, more than once. In the end, we always stay (never went through with separation). We almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor compared to what we’ve witnessed among friends over the years. Aside from our “character flaws”, we really do have a great relationship.
> 
> Honestly, we’ve always been the couple envied by most of our family & many of our friends (those who don’t know of our “flaws”). That is mostly due to our keeping those flaws mostly private & not broadcasting our every problem to everyone we know or on social media.
> 
> I am sure, based on what I’ve been reading among the posts in this site, that we would have been told to divorce... not trying to be harsh of other posters, just the pattern I see, & I understand that may truly be necessary for many.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you have been very quick to judge posters on this forum. I for one am still with my cheating/ recovering Alcoholic husband, I got great advice here, it was still my decision to go or stay, no one else makes that decision. Of course, people who come here have usually been cheated on or abused in some way and readers ought to know that colours some of the responses, rightly so.
> 
> And NO, not everyone is worth fighting for, as you put it, some people should be kicked to the kerb when they have had plenty of opportunities to make right what they have done, i.e. lying, cheating, drinking, etc. No one should ever be a doormat for anyone, all too often 'righteou's people like you make poor abused spouses stay on longer in relationships than they should have with their 'better or worse' mantra.
> 
> As for your own relationship and your enthusiasm about it, good for you though I sense 'the lady doth protest too much' and if your relationship is so wonderful how on earth could you ever begin 'to walk a mile in the shoes' of those who find themselves in the situations they do on TAM.
> 
> Finally, I do not see on what premise you base your conclusion that you would have been told to divorce. Noone on TAM tells people in relationships
> 
> who to quote you "almost never “fight” & our disagreements are minor" and are the envy of your family. Really, you ought to be less judgemental and realise that you are talking about chalk and cheese. <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/scratchhead.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Scratchhead" ></a>
> 
> Nevertheless, if you can take constructive critique, I welcome you to TAM<a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_grin.png" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" ></a><a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile_big.png" border="0" alt="" title="Laugh" ></a>
Click to expand...


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## HowBoutThemApples

sokillme said:


> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Araucaria & @sokillme
> Thank you both for your replies.
> 
> Yes, adultery has occurred in my marriage as well. We have both made poor choices but, we always chose each other in the end. Our poor choices don’t mean we don’t love each other, just that we are human & maybe that is a weakness?! I don’t know. We have a lot of years together/married & we have kids. By most accounts, we have a happy home & a great relationship. We take turns on the hi-low teeter totter but we always level out again. There’s never been any abuse of any kind (physical, mental, verbal, drugs or alcohol). We don’t fight & we don’t even argue a lot. Honestly, the biggest issue we have had is our sex life.
> 
> 
> 
> First off adultery is probably one of the worst forms of abuse you can commit against a person so not sure how you can argue there was never any abuse in your marriage.
Click to expand...

I disagree that adultery is the worst of abuses. We can agree to disagree tho & that’s ok. I just think mental & physical abuse is worse, although adultery can be a form of mental abuse at times (case by case). Personally I could forgive adultery easier than physical abuse. No the memory doesn’t go away but it is forgiven


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## Andy1001

HowBoutThemApples said:


> I disagree that adultery is the worst of abuses. We can agree to disagree tho & that’s ok. I just think mental & physical abuse is worse, although adultery can be a form of mental abuse at times (case by case). Personally I could forgive adultery easier than physical abuse. No the memory doesn’t go away but it is forgiven


It is obvious from your posts that you have been cheated on.
I would also wager that you are a man who’s wife cheated or is cheating on him.
You are dropping hints here and there but can I ask you some questions?
Why did you come onto a relationship forum and immediately start protesting about the amount of times divorce is suggested to betrayed spouses when their partners are or were cheating?
Are you in a situation where divorce has been advised,even recommended by your counselor,but you are looking for alternative advice from anonymous internet posters to validate your decision to stick with your marriage?
I’m not trying to dissect your life but if you want an open discussion then it helps if you’re open yourself.
Or in less salubrious terms either **** or get off the pot.


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## EveningThoughts

Yes, when I first started reading on here, I was also shocked by the divorce responses from some of the posters.

Not all, as I've learnt a lot from some very wise people on here.

But there did seem to be an air of bitterness permeating some responses. We only ever have the posters side of the story. (It got interesting when we heard the other side of a couple recently though). 

I think it's a given that if you come on here regarding infidelity in your marriage, the majority of responders will advice divorce. That will be due to their own experiences with it, and they don't want you making the same mistakes they did, or wasting time trying to reconcile if they feel there is no hope for the poster.
Those that have experience with reconciling seem to be thin on the ground here, or don't use this site or comment much.

I am in a long term marriage that has been through some problems, but we have got through them. 
I feel if either myself or my husband had posted about them on here, there would have been some divorce comments. But there would have been some good advice as well.


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## personofinterest

HowBoutThemApples said:


> Not trying to be defensive. I was only making an observation of what I was seeing to be so common. I totally understand many truly are better off & I’m not saying divorce shouldn’t be suggested. I know a few who should have never married & should get divorced themselves. I know some who 1 or the other has cheated & they reconciled. I know some who both have cheated & they reconciled. Then I know others who went straight for divorce. I get it’s different for each couple. I’m just new here & still learning my way around how the minds of the seasoned work.


I cannot help but notice you did not actually answer my question.


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## personofinterest

> It is obvious from your posts that you have been cheated on.


See, I'm getting the opposite....that he/she was/is the cheater.

Because a BS probably wouldn't say "adultery has happened/we have both made poor choices". They'd just say they had been cheated on.


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## skerzoid

*"Fighting for your marriage"* should come from the *Wayward*, not the BS. The Wayward should be snot nosed crying, begging, pleading, and determined to do the hard work to "win" their marriage back from the _pit of hell_ that they threw it into, *not the betrayed spouse*. They are the abused party. Otherwise it reeks of the *"Pick Me Dance"* and makes the BS look to be pathetic. *Strength, Courage, and Decisive actions* by the BS are the ONLY things that can possibly save a marriage, and often that is not enough.


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## personofinterest

skerzoid said:


> *"Fighting for your marriage"* should come from the *Wayward*, not the BS. The Wayward should be snot nosed crying, begging, pleading, and determined to do the hard work to "win" their marriage back from the _pit of hell_ that they threw it into, *not the betrayed spouse*. They are the abused party. Otherwise it reeks of the *"Pick Me Dance"* and makes the BS look to be pathetic. *Strength, Courage, and Decisive actions* by the BS are the ONLY things that can possibly save a marriage, and often that is not enough.


 Exactly. The idea that any wayward would chide a betrayed spouse for not fighting for the marriage is disgusting.


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## 2ntnuf

HowBoutThemApples said:


> In the 2nd quote, I was meaning physical or verbal abuse,* not abuse of drugs or alcohol. But, I do understand addiction can be just as bad or worse in some cases. * My FIL was a bad alcoholic until a few years after my MIL divorced him. They were married 20-something yrs. It wasn’t until he had his last major stroke that he finally stopped drinking & smoking. He was actually drunk when I met him... & during that last stroke stay, he remained legally intoxicated for 3 days.
> 
> I think I just saw SO many suggesting divorce so quick that it seemed to be an automatic response. I do understand it’s truly the answer for many. I just think it’s more case by case rather than “you did this - there’s no hope - divorce!” That’s how it was looking as a pattern to me. I enjoy these discussions though to get a better idea of everyone’s thoughts & where you’re coming from.


I don't remember saying anything about drugs and alcohol. What made you think that's what I was talking about when I posted nothing like that and I was addressing your post?

Why do you accept that someone is telling the truth about abuse when posting online, without corroboration, yet you require it before someone posts suggesting getting a divorce?


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## David Darling

HowBoutThemApples, I bet you're so happy you found this welcoming forum :smile2:


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## HowBoutThemApples

EveningThoughts said:


> Yes, when I first started reading on here, I was also shocked by the divorce responses from some of the posters.
> 
> Not all, as I've learnt a lot from some very wise people on here.
> 
> But there did seem to be an air of bitterness permeating some responses. We only ever have the posters side of the story. (It got interesting when we heard the other side of a couple recently though).
> 
> I think it's a given that if you come on here regarding infidelity in your marriage, the majority of responders will advice divorce. That will be due to their own experiences with it, and they don't want you making the same mistakes they did, or wasting time trying to reconcile if they feel there is no hope for the poster.
> Those that have experience with reconciling seem to be thin on the ground here, or don't use this site or comment much.
> 
> I am in a long term marriage that has been through some problems, but we have got through them.
> I feel if either myself or my husband had posted about them on here, there would have been some divorce comments. But there would have been some good advice as well.


Thanks for your response. I’m definitely picking up on some of those sour responses but I totally get it. I’m sure mine will be the same type of response/advice once I get to the point of divulging more info.


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## HowBoutThemApples

David Darling said:


> HowBoutThemApples, I bet you're so happy you found this welcoming forum <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/TAMarriage_2015/smilies/tango_face_smile.png" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>


Right?! So warm. Excuse me for choosing to tip toe in & not blast my dark secrets right away. With the type of response I’m mostly getting already, I can just imagine the firing squad waiting for me if I start opening up my closet.


----------



## HowBoutThemApples

Andy1001 said:


> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree that adultery is the worst of abuses. We can agree to disagree tho & that’s ok. I just think mental & physical abuse is worse, although adultery can be a form of mental abuse at times (case by case). Personally I could forgive adultery easier than physical abuse. No the memory doesn’t go away but it is forgiven
> 
> 
> 
> It is obvious from your posts that you have been cheated on.
> I would also wager that you are a man who’s wife cheated or is cheating on him.
> You are dropping hints here and there but can I ask you some questions?
> Why did you come onto a relationship forum and immediately start protesting about the amount of times divorce is suggested to betrayed spouses when their partners are or were cheating?
> Are you in a situation where divorce has been advised,even recommended by your counselor,but you are looking for alternative advice from anonymous internet posters to validate your decision to stick with your marriage?
> I’m not trying to dissect your life but if you want an open discussion then it helps if you’re open yourself.
> Or in less salubrious terms either **** or get off the pot.
Click to expand...

Hi Andy. I actually wasn’t intending to “protest” anything. I was only trying to make an observation of what I noticed & was surprised. I just kind of imagined this would be more in the direction of how to save marriages. I’m not knocking anyone for suggesting divorce. I apparently hit lots of nerves, unintentionally, by questioning the amount of divorce suggestions.


----------



## Rob_1

OP. I, as a man, to find out that I was/am being cheated by my partner is ground for immediate dissolution of the marriage/relationship. No buts, about it. I wouldn't care about the who, when, how, why, just that it happened. Relationship over. No questions asked.

I keep repeating this. For MOST men in this world being cheated by their wife/partner is an immediate end of the relationship, and quite often with a violent reaction to it by the man . It is in these forums were we get the see the weakest
of the weak coming for advice as to what to do, because these guys although being adults, they react like children, incapable of taking a decision by themselves 
They need strangers in forums like this to get guidance, because they are paralyzed with fear, lack of courage, self respect, and plainly, they are missing their balls, and everyone can see it by just the way they post. 

This is why you see people telling these OPs to just divorce, as it should be.

My personal opinion is that men/women that stay with a cheating partner are people that lack self respect and confidence in themselves. There will be people that would vehemently disagree with me, but that's OK.

You seem to be in the camp of lacking that self respect, because you wouldn't mind staying with a cheating partner.


----------



## HowBoutThemApples

I think you misread what I said. I never said you were talking about drugs or alcohol. Geez. 



2ntnuf said:


> HowBoutThemApples said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the 2nd quote, I was meaning physical or verbal abuse,* not abuse of drugs or alcohol. But, I do understand addiction can be just as bad or worse in some cases. * My FIL was a bad alcoholic until a few years after my MIL divorced him. They were married 20-something yrs. It wasn’t until he had his last major stroke that he finally stopped drinking & smoking. He was actually drunk when I met him... & during that last stroke stay, he remained legally intoxicated for 3 days.
> 
> I think I just saw SO many suggesting divorce so quick that it seemed to be an automatic response. I do understand it’s truly the answer for many. I just think it’s more case by case rather than “you did this - there’s no hope - divorce!” That’s how it was looking as a pattern to me. I enjoy these discussions though to get a better idea of everyone’s thoughts & where you’re coming from.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember saying anything about drugs and alcohol. What made you think that's what I was talking about when I posted nothing like that and I was addressing your post?
> 
> Why do you accept that someone is telling the truth about abuse when posting online, without corroboration, yet you require it before someone posts suggesting getting a divorce?
Click to expand...


----------



## HowBoutThemApples

Thanks Rob. 
Your response makes sense. 




Rob_1 said:


> OP. I, as a man, to find out that I was/am being cheated by my partner is ground for immediate dissolution of the marriage/relationship. No buts, about it. I wouldn't care about the who, when, how, why, just that it happened. Relationship over. No questions asked.
> 
> I keep repeating this. For MOST men in this world being cheated by their wife/partner is an immediate end of the relationship, and quite often with a violent reaction to it by the man . It is in these forums were we get the see the weakest
> of the weak coming for advice as to what to do, because these guys although being adults, they react like children, incapable of taking a decision by themselves
> They need strangers in forums like this to get guidance, because they are paralyzed with fear, lack of courage, self respect, and plainly, they are missing their balls, and everyone can see it by just the way they post.
> 
> This is why you see people telling these OPs to just divorce, as it should be.
> 
> My personal opinion is that men/women that stay with a cheating partner are people that lack self respect and confidence in themselves. There will be people that would vehemently disagree with me, but that's OK.
> 
> You seem to be in the camp of lacking that self respect, because you wouldn't mind staying with a cheating partner.


----------



## personofinterest

People can be tough on wayward spouses here. But if someone is honest and humble, they'll get valuable help.

What someone SHOULDN'T do is join a forum, try to manipulate the outcome, be cryptic, set everyone up, and then - when they admit they've cheated - dismiss any harsh advice as "sour" instead of taking responsibility.


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## Adelais

@HowBoutThemApples,

My husband "only" had an emotional affair. 

His words and actions during and after it devastated the foundation of our marriage, in my mind. It has taken years for us to put the shattered pieces of the past prior to the adultery, and the shaky marriage post adultery, back together again. You know the story of Humpty Dumpty, right?

I'm curious about your marital history, since you seem to take the adultery that has occurred on both sides (from your post) so lightly, as if it had no lasting damage on either of you.

There are a few posters here who have reconciled and have strong and healthy marriages. They have gained almost revered status because of their success at rebuilding strong, honest, loving marriages after healthily dealing with the pain and damage of adultery.

Perhaps you will eventually be considered among them. But it depends on whether the adultery in your marriage was truly dealt with, rather than swept under the rug.

How did you deal with it each time? What did each of you do to rebuild?

Can you expound?


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## 2ntnuf

HowBoutThemApples said:


> I think you misread what I said. I never said you were talking about drugs or alcohol. Geez.


Questions avoided successfully. Sorry for asking tough questions.


----------

