# An attempt to define strength



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This thread is dedicated to M2 who taught me the true meaning of strength.

I'm going to open up by saying that strength, the genuine article is much easier to recognize than to define. Even so, it's worth taking a crack at given that so much advice on TAM is predicated on the false notion that we all share a common definition of what it is in a marital context. 

For instance, when I came to TAM 5+ years ago I believed that walking away from M2 when she was in full melt down - was a show of strength. Now I'm of the opposite view. More on that in a subsequent post. 

My top down webster style definition is: The ability to love, care for and bring out the best in others while taking responsibility for our own happiness. 

Elements of strength - the fibers in the rope:
- Faith in yourself (maybe this is what confidence is based on)
- Self-awareness
- Self-regulation
- Motivation
- Empathy

John - maybe you can help here - most of the elements above are innate traits, though confidence can be developed by building skills in specific areas of life: work, sports, hobbies. The stuff below is harder to characterize. For instance M2 taught me to be playful. For her it's a trait, for me it's a skill. I think. 

- Conflict management skills (self regulation/self awareness are very helpful in this)
- Combat management skills (this is limited to emotional combat - this isn't a MMA tutorial)
- Sense of humor - this is something I do TO you
- Playfulness - and this is something I do WITH you (with is always better than to)

So that's my draft list.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Strength is great when dealing with NormalPeople (tm).... When dealing with NotNormalPeople (tm) very little of the above applies. So, assuming we are in the realm of NormalPeople (tm), here it goes.

Patience - it is sort of implied in your list but it's worth repeating. 

Anticipation and planning - there's a reason I love games. A relationship is not too different. Without anticipation you're simply reacting, regardless of other traits.

Accomplishments - whether putting up a retaining wall or bringing home some dough, real accomplishments help define you externally as well as innately.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Very good. 

The bit about normal people - reminded me of the importance of resilience. 

Resilience - the ability to recover from disappointment/failure in a timely fashion 




john117 said:


> Strength is great when dealing with NormalPeople (tm).... When dealing with NotNormalPeople (tm) very little of the above applies. So, assuming we are in the realm of NormalPeople (tm), here it goes.
> 
> Patience - it is sort of implied in your list but it's worth repeating.
> 
> ...


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> This thread is dedicated to M2 who taught me the true meaning of strength.
> 
> I'm going to open up by saying that strength, the genuine article is much easier to recognize than to define. Even so, it's worth taking a crack at given that so much advice on TAM is predicated on the false notion that we all share a common definition of what it is in a marital context.
> 
> ...


So... basically, you are defining strength as being characteristically defined as having a high Emotional Intelligence (E-IQ).

And, why not? Fundamentally, a High E-IQ means that you manage your own impulses, while recognizing other individuals' impulses and trying to navigate the circumstances and events that surround them, bringing about healthy outcomes. The strength that this implies is nothing to downplay.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The items you bolded are indeed right from the high E-IQ list. I augmented them because the classic list includes 'social skills'. While I think we all share a general sense of what it means to have good social skills, I thought it helpful to replace that umbrella term with the specific skills/qualities most helpful in a marriage. 

Being lovable is a huge strength. And funny/playful folk tend to be lovable. 

The E-IQ list feels somewhat business focused. While a marriage is the business of family, it is also hopefully much more than that. 




Relationship Teacher said:


> So... basically, you are defining strength as being characteristically defined as having a high Emotional Intelligence (E-IQ).
> 
> And, why not? Fundamentally, a High E-IQ means that you manage your own impulses, while recognizing other individuals' impulses and trying to navigate the circumstances and events that surround them, bringing about healthy outcomes. The strength that this implies is nothing to downplay.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I would add to that list 

The ability to hold yourself to a standard
Not letting yourself be disrespected
Doing the right thing and not just the easy thing


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The items you bolded are indeed right from the high E-IQ list. I augmented them because the classic list includes 'social skills'. While I think we all share a general sense of what it means to have good social skills, I thought it helpful to replace that umbrella term with the specific skills/qualities most helpful in a marriage.
> 
> Being lovable is a huge strength. And funny/playful folk tend to be lovable.
> 
> The E-IQ list feels somewhat business focused. While a marriage is the business of family, it is also hopefully much more than that.


That is a good point. E-IQ does tend to be focused towards the business environment, especially in terms of management personnel.

What I find most interesting about what you have told me, is the fun and lovable traits. Those are measurable aspects of the strength in action. The nerdy answer would be that we could measure left pre-frontal lobe dominance, which means the right PFC lobe is being moderated, and any negative Lymbic activity is kept in check. 

It isn't as simple as saying that people are necessarily lovable, innately. There is real effort that goes behind suppressing negativity and staying positive. I can tell you that my past self used to let my emotional impulses dictate my actions and reactions. Now, I tend to hold off on making decisions until my emotional state is healthy. It depends on a person's tendencies as to whether they would call spiraling moods fortunate or unfortunate, as in positivity compounding on positivity and vice versa.

I say that it is fortunate, as it implies that we have incredible control over our own moods.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If you detach the emotional processing from the decision making things become a lot easier


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> I would add to that list
> 
> The ability to hold yourself to a standard
> *Not letting yourself be disrespected*
> Doing the right thing and not just the easy thing


And who is defining respect? 

A senior VP in my division decided that he and his direct reports would have their desks in the same room. No more closed offices. 

He had a revolution on his hand. Many of his direct reports felt disrespected. They had had closed offices and they felt the new setup was a step backwards.

When you define respect using the wrong values, it can lead you down the wrong path.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> And who is defining respect?
> 
> A senior VP in my division decided that he and his direct reports would have their desks in the same room. No more closed offices.
> 
> ...


I disagree. If you feel disrespected chances are that's because you are. We all define that differently but still an important value to hold.


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## vel (Aug 27, 2016)

I think strength, real strength, comes from a place of humbleness. When you have no ego, no expectations of others, and find happiness within yourself--then you are strong, because you are not needy.

I don't mean being a doormat either. When you're not needy, no one has any power over you. I think, at the base of any good relationship, are two fully independent and stable individuals.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

MEM2020 said:


> This thread is dedicated to M2 who taught me the true meaning of strength.
> 
> I'm going to open up by saying that strength, the genuine article is much easier to recognize than to define. Even so, it's worth taking a crack at given that so much advice on TAM is predicated on the false notion that we all share a common definition of what it is in a marital context.
> 
> ...


I see self belief as a vital part of strength. A recognition that you have a strong core of emotional make-up/beliefs/skills that you can rely on to help you through problems. 
In your list it probably overlaps with faith in yourself, with perhaps some self-awareness too.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> This thread is dedicated to M2 who taught me the true meaning of strength.
> 
> ...........................................


A great woman that is deeply in love can enlighten a great man to many things.


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## Begin again (Jul 4, 2016)

john117 said:


> If you detach the emotional processing from the decision making things become a lot easier


I completely agree. It will become easier, but the outcome will be poorer. 

When you can take how you feel about something, pull it into your awareness, and address it as part of your truth, then and only then are you fully resilient and functional as a human being. To extract emotions or even attempt to do so and use only logic for your decisions is to extract your humanity. Robots make totally logical decisions. I wouldn't want to be one or be married to one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

I believe self reliance is a big factor in strength. Knowing that no matter what, you can get things done without having to rely on others. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is likely the single hardest topic to address effectively.

Three examples of - well - that is the question - what exactly is happening?

1. M2 is near the edge of a switchback trail and I ask her to step back from the edge, which she does. Am I implying she's clumsy? Nope. She is in fact quite sure footed. Is she showing respect for my fear of heights? Yes. 

2. M2 mentions she is going to swim laps and I tell her I'm going to the gym for a couple hours. She complains that - that seems like an excessively long workout. Is she accusing me of lying? Showing distrust - despite having no basis for it? Or does she instead have some phobia of my 'independent' behavior? She has a phobia. Her comments have nothing to do with my behavior. 

Do I make it about me? No. I say something playful and go work out. 

3. In a group setting I suggest a restaurant. M2 uses the 'stupid husband' tone in response. I respond with a puzzled: I thought you liked that place? 

A couple minutes later we are alone in the car and I mention that my suggestion was based on her recently expressed desire to go to the restaurant I suggested. She profusely apologizes asks if she is such a bltch frequently. I say no - which is true. In certain social situations she gets anxious - and does stuff that is competitive and critical. Is that about me or about her?

So yes - I could make M2 more afraid of me, and consequently less likely to make unfortunate unfiltered comments. But if I do that, then many of those delightful spontaneous things she does - disappear as well. 

Do our friends know I'm a decent guy and she loves/respects me? Yes. Do they know she can be unfiltered in an unkind manner on occasion? Yes. So why would I make this about me?





Wolf1974 said:


> I disagree. If you feel disrespected chances are that's because you are. We all define that differently but still an important value to hold.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Begin again said:


> I completely agree. It will become easier, but the outcome will be poorer.
> 
> When you can take how you feel about something, pull it into your awareness, and address it as part of your truth, then and only then are you fully resilient and functional as a human being. To extract emotions or even attempt to do so and use only logic for your decisions is to extract your humanity. Robots make totally logical decisions. I wouldn't want to be one or be married to one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that's true for common mortals, in theory.

In practice, you can assign a value or weight to emotions and have them be part of the mental models used in your decision making process. We do that subconsciously... 

(That was a part of my dissertation btw  )


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM, that's NormalPeople responses. Here's the NotNormalPeople side for comparison. We had to go to the landscape place to return a dead shrub so we needed the receipt. The receipt was in my important pile, on the top. J2 asks for it, I point out the pile, she picks up the pike and after 5 seconds starts panicing that she can't find it. I point it out and politely suggest she wears her glasses. Needless to say that did not go well and she throws in a mini-fit for good measure.

I listened patiently and told her that it would be to her advantage to be more mindful... Since this is J2 we're talking about, it won't happen...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> This is likely the single hardest topic to address effectively.
> 
> Three examples of - well - that is the question - what exactly is happening?
> 
> ...


Not sure I follow your question here. I don't think you would make it about you unless you felt it was disrespectful. Seems the only one you felt disrespected was the last one where she had a belittling or *****y tone. You called her on it, clarified and moved on. I see no issue with any of that. What would have been an issue is she had the tone, you were bothered, you don't say Anythng and let that resentment build. Can't expect her to be a mind reader . I think you did fine


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wolf,
The best I can do to explain this is to say that I used to get angry - when M2 did this type stuff. Anger comes from hurt or fear. So I was either hurt/afraid that she didn't 'respect/trust' me or my judgement. 

But the gestalt - says just the opposite. Vast majority of the time it's obvious M2 respects/trusts me. Those situations where her behavior is contrary to reality are - 'not about me'. So why would I get upset about something, that has nothing to do with me?

That doesn't mean I don't react. I do. But it's more of a low affect 'why did you do that' type thing. 

I hope this makes sense. 




Wolf1974 said:


> Not sure I follow your question here. I don't think you would make it about you unless you felt it was disrespectful. Seems the only one you felt disrespected was the last one where she had a belittling or *****y tone. You called her on it, clarified and moved on. I see no issue with any of that. What would have been an issue is she had the tone, you were bothered, you don't say Anythng and let that resentment build. Can't expect her to be a mind reader . I think you did fine


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Wolf,
> The best I can do to explain this is to say that I used to get angry - when M2 did this type stuff. Anger comes from hurt or fear. So I was either hurt/afraid that she didn't 'respect/trust' me or my judgement.
> 
> But the gestalt - says just the opposite. Vast majority of the time it's obvious M2 respects/trusts me. Those situations where her behavior is contrary to reality are - 'not about me'. So why would I get upset about something, that has nothing to do with me?
> ...


Hmm well that is interesting and I think that it's not that I don't understand what your saying just maybe can't relate. Can I ask why you were hurt or afraid she didn't respect you. Do you know where that came from? Could it possibly be insecurities in yourself and not her?

Trying to clarify because when I have felt a SO was being disrepectful to me in the past it wasn't anger, fear or hurt that I felt it was just disrespected. I guess I kinda see that as its own thing. Best way I can explain it is I expect to be treated by her the way I treat her. So if she is being disrespectful what that translates to is she is doing, saying something, or acting in a way that I wouldn't do to her so I call her on it. It's not based on fear or hurt though. 

Dug gave an example in the workplace. There I expect and demand professionalism which is what I give. So his somewhat strange example of the employer wanting his people in the same room with him instead of having their own offices would never bother me. I don't find that disrespectful or unprofessional. It's just want the boss wants. I'm not taking away they may have found it that way I know I just wouldn't personally.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wolf,

Part insecurity and part assuming if it was being done to me it must be about me. 

But that just isn't true. A lot of stuff that a partner does to us - is about them. 

Golden rule is fine to a point but not in a literal sense, more of a virtual sense. Literal is: I wouldn't do that exact thing to you. 

But that thing is driven by your specific phobias/quirks - which differ from mine. 




Wolf1974 said:


> Hmm well that is interesting and I think that it's not that I don't understand what your saying just maybe can't relate. Can I ask why you were hurt or afraid she didn't respect you. Do you know where that came from? Could it possibly be insecurities in yourself and not her?
> 
> Trying to clarify because when I have felt a SO was being disrepectful to me in the past it wasn't anger, fear or hurt that I felt it was just disrespected. I guess I kinda see that as its own thing. Best way I can explain it is I expect to be treated by her the way I treat her. So if she is being disrespectful what that translates to is she is doing, saying something, or acting in a way that I wouldn't do to her so I call her on it. It's not based on fear or hurt though.
> 
> Dug gave an example in the workplace. There I expect and demand professionalism which is what I give. So his somewhat strange example of the employer wanting his people in the same room with him instead of having their own offices would never bother me. I don't find that disrespectful or unprofessional. It's just want the boss wants. I'm not taking away they may have found it that way I know I just wouldn't personally.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I consider my husband to be resilient. He inspires me in various life scenarios.

I think resilience and strength is cultivated - and usually with the help of others. When he responds to the 'bat signal' and takes off, there's a crew of supportive, level headed people helping each other. He's one of them and they're in it together. And strength is developed. When he returns to the bat cave, from putting himself in situations that we instinctively run from, not towards, the body and mind needs time to adjust. I'm there to listen, support and reassure. 

What I've had to learn for myself, and get secure with, is there are other options than to 'cut and run' when confrontation is needed. I discovered I can feel safe and trust within my husband to no longer need that reaction. Then I discovered I can feel safe and trust within _myself_ to challenge that reaction.

When I consider who we are surrounded by, they are people I would consider strong and resilient. Developing a strong back becomes easier when surrounded by such people. This flows into our marriage. Sometimes I feel he expects me to be as resilient as he is... and sometimes I'm simply not. Still, we're getting better with understanding and accepting each other in that regard.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Wolf,
> 
> Part insecurity and part assuming if it was being done to me it must be about me.
> 
> ...


Well I definetly have different view but I don't agree it's based on phobias or quirks. Just a desire to give and get respect. I'm perfectly comfortable with that. My GF says it's nice because I am never passive agressive or bottle up my feelings. I'm straight forward about things in a calm manner and she appreciates knowing "where I'm at" vs guessing. Her X really played a number on her.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I don’t know much about the standards of E-IQ other than the global definition of recognizing awareness of self and others, the ability to control and make use of emotions and apply them to solving problems, and the ability to manage and regulate self and apply to others to encourage or calm.

That said, I wonder if there can be a static (single) definition of strength more than a vision of what is attainable in the given moment… you never step into the same river twice.

For me, strength is found in the simplicity of the daily Eightfold Path:









Now, within that strength is an incredible value of self, because bad things can happen to good people and when it does, the foundation of calm so that those things strengthen you with the stamina being mindful brings. It defines you with the good baggage leaving the bad behind, or destroys that particular portion of you weakening the infrastructure to allow doubt of one's endurance to persevere.
@Relationship Teacher spoke or managing your own impulses while recognizing others attempting, with attempting navigation for a healthy outcome... an everybody wins result and the most favourable by far, but there will be times when one simply cannot maneuver these tasks, conditions, and standards into a win-win or even a quid pro quo where both humbly agree to disagree, and that is where the seed of strength grows or withers.

Desire of any kind is an interesting exercise, often resulting in a destabilization of some form or another. That destabilization can be positive, like the breaking down tissue to build muscle in an emotional sense, or it can be negative and lead you in an emotional game of "crack the whip". It's all in the warm-up and stretching in the beginning that insures an injury-free exchange.

So, still speaking of desire, eventually one can attain such mindfulness that when such emotions come at you, the congruence of the mind and heart are so in tune that it's not that you have to dodge them or take the hit and withstand it... the ability will be that you simply part the waves of them where you can observe as they move past but few, if any, touch.

That is one avenue of how I define strength, or at least the first that comes to mind.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Your temporal awareness is - high. M2 and I have a lot of banter about the clock. I think it's important to understand core differences between you and your partner. M2 is faster than I am at everything other than racquet sports. 

Maybe that is why I am very patient and she isn't. This gap is a point of humor between us. 

Planning - M2 LOVES when I have a multi tier (plan A + plan B + plan C) plan. Loves it. The graceful transit to plan B makes her happy - maybe even hot. 

Accomplishments - very big thing - I note that you skipped over the abstract 'skills' and focused instead on results. I think that is spot on. Skills sans results are simply a source of frustration for your partner.





john117 said:


> Strength is great when dealing with NormalPeople (tm).... When dealing with NotNormalPeople (tm) very little of the above applies. So, assuming we are in the realm of NormalPeople (tm), here it goes.
> 
> Patience - it is sort of implied in your list but it's worth repeating.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM2020 said:


> *For instance, when I came to TAM 5+ years ago I believed that walking away from M2 when she was in full melt down - was a show of strength. Now I'm of the opposite view. More on that in a subsequent post.*


 Just wanted to comment on this part.. as long as we've been together.. I can't think of one time where my husband walked out on me or had to get away.. even when I surely deserved it -for my attitude.. I have always LOVED this about him.. and I've shared how strongly I feel about it... this attribute calms me.. now if he did slam the door - telling me he needed his space.. this would flare me more so.. I know how I am.. (I can't be the only woman like this.. sounds like M2 is similar then)

I'm not even suggesting men should never do this...but again...he's never felt it was TOO MUCH to put up with me.. He'd say he can "handle it" -where maybe some other macho man couldn't (Mr Alpha)... ya know.. all I know is.. I do see it as a strength in him.. it's certainly not hurt our union.. It's an area of conflict that brings us closer .. where we get deep and work it out.. 

@jld is the 1st poster here I've seen really address this.. and she took a lot of slack for it.. those feeling Dug should slam the door on her.. if/ when she is being disrespectful...as they read it this way... I know her husband is less emotional over mine.. so it makes sense he can DO this.. and finds it rather easy for that matter... He also recognizes that many times, he has neglected her needs - which in effect, causes her to flare up unleashing on him.. (there is HIS self awareness)... 

I have hurt my husband's feelings ... my only excuse is... I'm mad at the time.. I am emoting (never said I was perfect).. he seems to "get this" and doesn't hold my mouth against me.. Thankfully... 

All I know is.. this has been a part of our conflict dynamic on a # of occasions ... and it's been a good thing for us... I can only speak for our own marriage, of course. If this automatically = doormat.. then we're screwed up .. cause I have NOT lost attraction to him over such things.. I praise him and do see "strength" of character for loving me through whatever I am "going through".. He is there.. he is my ROCK. 

I think it's Great that you have come around on this one @MEM2020 , that you've experienced the other side ...I'm sure it has endeared M2 to you.. her feeling the deepest of care, even during her worst moments..(which true.. may not even be about you)...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,

Thanks to you we've meandered back here. So there's this theme in the initial list called 'self regulation' - refers to a person's ability to either remain calm - or to recover quickly if they get upset. 

But in a marriage - there's a bigger theme - call it partner regulation.

When your partner melts down, here's the primary outcomes from best to worst:
1. You synchronize them to your calm state (this is the ultimate demonstration of power in a marriage - up regulating a partner who is crashing). 
2. You remain calm, engaged and present, and let your partner self regulate on their own. (The difference between this and (1) is that here - you are helping by being present - but - they'd get to the same outcome at the same pace without you. 
3. They destabilize you - it's obvious - but you manage not to say or do anything stupid.
4. They destabilize you and you leave 
5. They destabilize you and you make the situation worse





SimplyAmorous said:


> Just wanted to comment on this part.. as long as we've been together.. I can't think of one time where my husband walked out on me or had to get away.. even when I surely deserved it -for my attitude.. I have always LOVED this about him.. and I've shared how strongly I feel about it... this attribute calms me.. now if he did slam the door - telling me he needed his space.. this would flare me more so.. I know how I am.. (I can't be the only woman like this.. sounds like M2 is similar then)
> 
> I'm not even suggesting men should never do this...but again...he's never felt it was TOO MUCH to put up with me.. He'd say he can "handle it" -where maybe some other macho man couldn't (Mr Alpha)... ya know.. all I know is.. I do see it as a strength in him.. it's certainly not hurt our union.. It's an area of conflict that brings us closer .. where we get deep and work it out..
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depends on what you measure as faster. I'm patient, deliberate, slow even, but also thorough and virtually always right. When needed, I go into action mode and get things done quickly. 

My wife believes in shoot first and ask questions later. Unless it's for work where she's very thorough and methodical. 

Planning, I'm very good at. What would we do without Microsoft Project . But I prefer to make it appear it's all too random. Chaos brings out the best in people...

Accomplishments.... I feel I should do more but I'm not willing to kill myself working. But they don't get appreciated by her. Back in August I had my mid year review and was blown away when Bob told me to use 10% of my and my team's time for Google style R&D. Essentially to come up with ideas. Did she care? Did she care DD2 nailed the MCAT? That both girls are working on publishing research work? Nope.

The strength is to not be bothered by her indifference


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Why do you think she isn't more excited by your daughters successes?

I'm only asking because it is the rare parent who responds to their kids success with indifference. 




john117 said:


> Depends on what you measure as faster. I'm patient, deliberate, slow even, but also thorough and virtually always right. When needed, I go into action mode and get things done quickly.
> 
> My wife believes in shoot first and ask questions later. Unless it's for work where she's very thorough and methodical.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM2020 said:


> SA,
> 
> Thanks to you we've meandered back here. So there's this theme in the initial list called 'self regulation' - refers to a person's ability to either remain calm - or to recover quickly if they get upset.
> 
> ...


This is a good list...

I wanted to get my husband's insight ... I just read him my post on here.. then your response ....as I wanted him to assess himself... (I had my own thoughts & wanted to see if he agreed - he did !).... We both felt he is more a *#2* over #1 ...just his mere engaging presence helps me calm down...it's not his words or his charm talking to me -just his presence & willingness to answer my questions... 

But he also said I can destabilize him *#3* - there has been times (he said I can be "ROUGH")...but true.. he manages to not say or do anything stupid.. Great patience he has... 

He's never been a #4 or #5 ...

We've always been that couple that doesn't let the sun go down on our anger.. we fight passionately.. but it ends pretty quickly too, back in each others arms...

So where were YOU in the past.. mostly a #4 or #5 ... and now a #1 or #2 guy....sometimes a #3 (can't win them all !)... Can you share just what a difference it's made in her behavior ?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> Why do you think she isn't more excited by your daughters successes?
> 
> I'm only asking because it is the rare parent who responds to their kids success with indifference.


You must not be familiar with Tiger Moms and the Asian Grading Scale


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