# Is this a big deal?



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

I'm interested to get outside perspective on something that happened between my H and me. 

First, let me say, my marriage is not great, though I feel it's been getting better with things I've learned reading in here and on marriagebuilders. One problem is that I have never stood up for myself and what I want and just always sacrificed for my husband. I do think he has been incredibly selfish but I have let him. Now that I am trying to be stronger and say "I don't want that" or "this is what I want" occasionally, he has been really trying to be more thoughtful and while it feels forced, I do appreciate the effort.

Okay, so here's what happened:

A few days ago we went to an outdoor open seating concert with some other friends. We looked forward to this one outing for sometime. We had drinks before and were both pretty buzzed. My phone had been left at home and he had all our cash in his pocket.

He wanted to walk up closer. I went with him for a ways but pretty soon we were having to push through people, and he's tall and getting in front of people who got there early to get up front. I'm having trouble not stepping on people and their blankets.

I was uncomfortable, embarrassed and had ZERO desire to go up front. I told him I told him how I felt and I think he was irritated that I was embarrassed to step in front of other people. (I am very conflict avoidant in real life, like I'll circle the parking lot if there's someone behind me instead of making them wait for me to get into an awkward parking spot.) But regardless of that, I simply didn't WANT to go up front.

I told him: "I don't want to go up front." He said "I do." and left me.

Was that an ass move on his part or were we just two people that wanted different things at that moment, no big deal? Also two buzzed people not behaving as maturely as usual. 

I ended up finding our friends but later went looking for him again and got lost and everyone was looking for me (hopefully it didn't ruin their evening, we found each other pretty fast after the concert ended.)

Anyhow - I was not really so angry at him as I just felt deflated. Like - okay, this is my marriage. He's going to do what he wants to do if I don't want to do it, I become an obstacle/issue. I know there is no chance on earth my friend's husband would have left her or tried to talk her into going up front if she didn't want to. And she would not have felt bad/'guilty simply saying "I don't want to do that" even if she knew he did.

SO
The next day I tried to talk with him about it and it just seemed stupid. It went something like this.

Me: I know we were both drinking and I don't want to make a big deal out of this, but I was really disappointed you went up front and we weren't together at the concert.
Him (somewhat belligerently): I was disappointed you wouldn't go up front with me.
Me: I explained to you that I didn't want to go up front.
Him: Well I did.
pause in conversation
Me: It just feels symptomatic of our marriage. We do what you want and if I don't want what you want, I become an obstacle to you. I would like you to consider me and what I want when making decisions.
Him: Defeated sounding "fine" dismissive shrug something like that. (I know he probably does not agree with me about him always having his way but didn't wan to argue.)

To be fair he doesn't walk off and leave me a lot. That's the first time ever. It's just that he wants what he wants and he has no trouble taking it and he has no trouble refusing to do anything I want to do that doesn't appeal to him (which is 90% of what I want to do.) While we get along well I am not fulfilled in our marriage and I spend most of my time wishing I had not married *him* for many reasons.

Anyhow, I feel I can't see the forest through the trees. I'd appreciate any thoughts on our incident. Was that a big deal or not in your opinion?


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## Lostme (Nov 14, 2014)

It would have been for me if my H left me in a crowd like that.

But mine would not he is considerate of me, we had that same situation a few months back so for one band we stayed back for the next half we went up front.

Marriage is compromise, something he is not doing with you.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

He was selfish at that moment, and obviously not at his best... a better path would have been for him to let you know he was going to spend a short time up front for a song or two and them come back to be with you... a win-win.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> Me: It just feels symptomatic of our marriage. We do what you want and if I don't want what you want, I become an obstacle to you. I would like you to consider me and what I want when making decisions.
> Him: Defeated sounding "fine" dismissive shrug something like that. (I know he probably does not agree with me about him always having his way but didn't wan to argue.)
> 
> To be fair he doesn't walk off and leave me a lot. That's the first time ever.  It's just that he wants what he wants and he has no trouble taking it and he has no trouble refusing to do anything I want to do that doesn't appeal to him (*which is 90% of what I want to do*.) While we get along well I am not fulfilled in our marriage and I spend most of my time wishing I had not married *him* for many reasons.
> ...


This thing itself is not a big deal compared to your other problems! It is a symptom of them though.

So you have actually big problems in your marriage. That is what you should talk about.

Seen your first remarks you have done a great job telling would you did not like when it happened, AND discussing it afterwards. Making your feelings know, as being an obstacle in his path. Well done. 

At a certain point there is no reasoning him into other behavior. You better make your feelings known, but not judgemental, as in: when this happens, or when you do that, I feel xxx. And let him give a reaction. For the moment that is all, the point is getting him to communicate about YOUR feelings. The other thing you could do is just walk away from whatever makes you uncomfortable. Like leaving the concert and go somewhere you like to be. The action alone, I talk about, not the action of leaving as precursor to a discussion. You can let know how you feel without going into arguments.


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## lorikeet25 (Jun 22, 2016)

This sounds very much like my marriage. My H would absolutely have left me behind and then defended his actions. I don't have an answer for you, but I can commiserate. 

I do think it is a big deal, but more in a big picture way and not just thus specific incident.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

If it was someone who was really important for me to see, rare or can't miss, I would have explained myself, kissed my wife's forehead, comforted her, and told her to go find our friends.

Otherwise, I would have found a seat in her comfort zone.

Walking away without explanation or comfort is a d*** move.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Sounds like he did not go out to spend time with you. Being with you should have been of primary importance.

Is this part of the issue? If so how big a part?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Love is a series of building blocks... sometimes a block is added, sometimes one seems taken away not so much by others as by ourselves and our ability to accept that we are all flawed in some way. None of us like it when we have a flaw pointed out, much less having it pointed out several days in a row... easy to be stoic and not find the humility to say something as simple as "I am sorry I let my selfishness get in the way and didn't mean to leave you feeling hurt with my wants that didn't work for us".

Fulfillment is something we make ourselves or do not... when we don't, it's easy to blame others for not meeting our needs when we so horribly fail to meet them ourselves. For every reason you find yourself wishing you hadn't married him, I'll bet you can find one thankful you have even if this one "hadn't" happens to be a big one which may gobble up several "have's".

In the end, lasting love is built with self-confidence and acceptance of the present. You know he has selfish tendencies from your own sharing... so don't set yourself up anymore and have a selfish "bug-out bag" with you so that when he behaves poorly you can take control of your own situation and extract yourself from his very narrow world. Keep it very small and manageable in large crowds or small, with phone, cash, and one CC if you really need to so that when he gets in this role you have options of your own making and choice... let him figure out the rest.

We are all selfish by nature at times... communicate with him that you feel he is thinking only of himself and not "us", you will allow his selfishness to have cause and effect and in the end if you see there is a non-caring attitude, this will explain more than many of his passive arguments.

Be with peace (and self-confidence)...


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Going up for a song and returning, maybe. That was not cool. Boundaries, that's certainly one of my wife's. Plus it's part of my protector role.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

here is the way I see it....just my opinion.

was your husband selfish or inconsiderate insisting on moving up front?

I think it is fair to say he was and put his desire ahead of yours.

Here is the problem though.....


> I was uncomfortable, embarrassed and had ZERO desire to go up front.


Do you see the hypocrisy here? you are offended that "he did what he wanted".....yet you DID WHAT YOU WANTED (regardless of your justification as to why) but apparently he should acquiesce to YOUR desires but you wont for his.

so to me...you were both in the wrong....and add alcohol to the mix where peoples "sensitivity knob" gets turned to full and now you have something to pout about.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

First, to everyone - thank you so much for your responses.



CharlieParker said:


> Going up for a song and returning, maybe. That was not cool. Boundaries, that's certainly one of my wife's. _Plus it's part of my protector role._


I think that is what is at the heart of my disappointment over this. I know it is my flaw that I am weak and let him get away with being selfish. However there is a part of me that wants him to be my protector. To protect me from myself even. I want a husband who would not be willing to leave me alone in a crowd with no cash, phone or ID. 

In this instance I think the moment just took over - he was irritated that in addition to saying I didn't want to go up front, I was telling him he was being rude (people were rolling their eyes at him and making comments to me). I digress though - like I said he's never left me in a crowd before so I really blame the alcohol and both our pissy attitudes. HOWEVER:

He has not made a living since we got married. I am not a spender but I am 50 with no life savings, no children (we couldn't afford them) not living where I want, rather living where he wants, albeit where we met, but cost of living is high, we could save over $1,000 a month immediately moving somewhere cheaper.

Before we even married I got sucked into helping him financially and then he became dependent on me. I liquidated my retirement account to pay his extravagant (in my opinion) rent at the time. Now he has health issues where he's essentially in severe pain with terrible migraines and other intense body pains almost every day and he really CAN'T work.

I should have never started paying for HIS rent and HIS lifestyle and I know it was my weakness and stupidity that got me into this situation but I keep thinking He should not have let me. A "real man" would not let a woman work herself into anxiety and stress and depression to support his need to have an "image" where he has nice things in a nice home. A "real man" would live humbly and save until he could support his wife/family. A "real man" would put savings for children ahead of having expensive things now that he could not afford.

Of course a "real woman" would never have settled for what I did either so obviously I have my own issues.

But "protector role" from him - I am very independent but that is what my heart wants from him, but instead I have the opposite. I am taking care of him at the expense of my own happiness.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

x598 said:


> here is the way I see it....just my opinion.
> 
> was your husband selfish or inconsiderate insisting on moving up front?
> 
> ...


Yes, that's why I'm asking. I've been reading a lot on marriage builders and they have what they call the policy of joint agreement where you don't do anything unless you are BOTH enthusiastic about it. That has made me think a lot - I always do what he wants regardless of what I want. This was the first time I can think of that I ever said "No, I'm not doing that" when he wanted to do something I did not. He simply will not do something he does not want to do (like visit my family, or anything really that does not appeal to him). They say that is healthy but it does not escape my attention that I wish I had married someone who wanted to do some of the things I wanted, or saw it as his role to go with me to family events whether he loved it or not.




x598 said:


> so to me...you were both in the wrong....and add alcohol to the mix where peoples "sensitivity knob" gets turned to full and now you have something to pout about.


LOL, OMG, I know, right? I swear I felt like I was 16 again trying to figure out if some guy cared about me or not. To my credit though I did NOT pout because I was not about to ruin the evening for our friends! We all know there's nothing more fun when you're middle aged than hanging out with some drunk couple in the middle of a tiff over nothing. I did give him one evil glare in the back of the car on the way home. He returned it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> Anyhow, I feel I can't see the forest through the trees.



It's, "I can't see the forest for the trees". The trees are blocking your view of the forest, when in reality, they are part of the forest. In so far as this saying goes, you would be focused on the small things and missing the important big picture. Or, wasting time and energy fighting over small things and missing the combined total of good and bad, that might make you happy.

Okay, now I will apologize. I needed to post that. It was really bugging me. Didn't mean to make you think I don't care about your issue. I was having one myself.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

> LOL, OMG, I know, right? I swear I felt like I was 16 again trying to figure out if some guy cared about me or not. To my credit though I did NOT pout because I was not about to ruin the evening for our friends! We all know there's nothing more fun when you're middle aged than hanging out with some drunk couple in the middle of a tiff over nothing. I did give him one evil glare in the back of the car on the way home. He returned it.


when I said "something to pout about" it didn't just mean that evening....but the next day when you felt it necessary to bring it up. I applaud you for not letting it ruin the evening or your friends' enjoyment of the event.

let me ask you this....do you think had you not been drinking this would have possibly been a non-issue?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

With your last two posts, we have a better picture of things. 

You really need to get into counseling to learn how to set boundaries and maintain them. There are some good books on amazon.com on the topic too.

If you can save $1,000 a month living somewhere else, I suggest you move. What's he going to do, refuse? You are the bread winner. $1,000 a month is huge. That's a $12,000 a year savings account.

If he cannot work because of some pain issues, what has he done for pain management? Has he tried to get on disability?

If he is not earning a living, what does he do all day long?


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

> I think that is what is at the heart of my disappointment over this. I know it is my flaw that I am weak and let him get away with being selfish. However there is a part of me that wants him to be my protector. To protect me from myself even. I want a husband who would not be willing to leave me alone in a crowd with no cash, phone or ID.


in my opinion.....this is a classic covert contract...not cool.



> In this instance I think the moment just took over - he was irritated that in addition to saying I didn't want to go up front, I was telling him he was being rude (people were rolling their eyes at him and making comments to me). I digress though - like I said he's never left me in a crowd before so I really blame the alcohol and both our pissy attitudes. HOWEVER:


the effect of booze on both of you, clearly.



> He has not made a living since we got married. I am not a spender but I am 50 with no life savings, no children (we couldn't afford them) not living where I want, rather living where he wants, albeit where we met, but cost of living is high, we could save over $1,000 a month immediately moving somewhere cheaper.
> 
> Before we even married I got sucked into helping him financially and then he became dependent on me. I liquidated my retirement account to pay his extravagant (in my opinion) rent at the time. Now he has health issues where he's essentially in severe pain with terrible migraines and other intense body pains almost every day and he really CAN'T work.
> 
> I should have never started paying for HIS rent and HIS lifestyle and I know it was my weakness and stupidity that got me into this situation but I keep thinking He should not have let me. A "real man" would not let a woman work herself into anxiety and stress and depression to support his need to have an "image" where he has nice things in a nice home. A "real man" would live humbly and save until he could support his wife/family. A "real man" would put savings for children ahead of having expensive things now that he could not afford.


He can't MAKE you do a thing.....so much of this is on you.

maybe this concert "tiff" is nothing more than a revealing moment that you have much bigger issues to resolve. But it is a nice "bomb" to drop if you want to gather cheerleaders to your side. Not trying to be a jerk.....just pointing out what I see is your responsibility for the state of this marriage.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Sounds like he did not go out to spend time with you. Being with you should have been of primary importance.
> 
> Is this part of the issue? If so how big a part?


That is part of the issue but I think only about 25%. I think I'm latching onto this incident because I'm unhappy in general and it's something I can describe, but it's maybe not the best example of the real root of my malaise.

I don't feel we have much intimacy, period. I definitely was looking forward to being at the concert "with him." I think the 75% part though was feeling that he did not care what I wanted. I swear to you I am NOT a "high maintenance, pissy" type woman. But I want him to care if I am having fun and comfortable and happy and if I WANT to go up front. He just seems to care if I am WILLING to do what he wants/needs. 

With a few day's hindsight I think he did go out to spend time with me and was really looking forward to it, but when I didn't want what he wanted he got stubborn, plus I did imply he was being rude when I told him he was getting in people's way and I think he felt criticized and with the alcohol his pride took over. Apparently he did spent the second half of the concert walking all over looking for me. (As did I looking for him.)

For the bigger picture - I have tried to get him to do marriage builders with me (which I know you're familiar with) and he is trying pretty successfully to eliminate love busters but he simply will not do "the program." No questionnaires, sulky if I push to watch the videos, etc. I think that idea is demeaning to him. (I gave up months ago.)

I am not in love with him and while I don't mind his company and I care about him, overall I feel I screwed up big time by marrying him. However, I've noticed that when we spend more time together both alone and with other couples, I stop obsessing so much over what could have been if I'd not married him. I start actually enjoying him. Especially when we do things with other couples that we are friends with, I notice in my mind I start seeing us a "a couple" that other's like hanging out with and I like being half of that couple. I definitely was looking forward to that evening reinforcing that feeling for me. FAIL.

I guess overall I feel I have very little control over my life married to him, I feel very connected to him in that if I'm out of the house working we check in with each other constantly. But I don't feel any real "intimacy" with him at all. I'm worried about the future. I'm not miserable but I'm not happy, and I see him as more of an obstacle to my security and happiness than contributing to it. I feel like he's really trying so hard in some ways and that does buy good will from me, and it is so nice that he's eliminated love busters like constant DJs, but he's still not even close to the man I want him to be in many ways.

See my post to Charlie Parker in this thread for details on what I feel is lacking (in case this post isn't long enough...)


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

From what you've said here, it sounds like your husband is a user who doesn't meet your needs. You hold all the cards, but you are allowing him to play the hand.

I couldn't stay with a man like this. I'd have zero respect for him. He's mooched off you from the beginning. You allowed it. I think you need to focus your energies on discovering why you would stay with this type of man. Is it better to have this man than no man at all?

You are living in an area that is too expensive, but he wants to live there. Why are you allowing him to make you miserable? Move to an area that costs less. He doesn't want to move? Tough sh!t. You are his meal ticket, he can suck it up or pound sand.

Go ahead and assert yourself. I'd be interested to hear about his reaction. Because right now you are paying someone else to make you unhappy. I hope you can figure out why you are allowing this. And it goes beyond making excuses for yourself, like "I'm just weak."


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Prodigal said:


> From what you've said here, it sounds like your husband is a user who doesn't meet your needs. You hold all the cards, but you are allowing him to play the hand.
> 
> I couldn't stay with a man like this. I'd have zero respect for him. He's mooched off you from the beginning. You allowed it. I think you need to focus your energies on discovering why you would stay with this type of man. Is it better to have this man than no man at all?
> 
> ...



Would you advise a man with a wife in the same situation to do and say these things? I wouldn't. There's no empathy, love, compromise, compassion, or communication. It's all one sided and the idea is that the man is expected to take care of it all. I don't understand this idea. I guess it's simply because he's a man. Whatever... 

She has all the power in this relationship. He doesn't even have a sexual hold over her. She's not in love with him. 

For the record, her account makes him sound like a jackass. I just don't know how true it is. No one does.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> It's, "I can't see the forest for the trees". The trees are blocking your view of the forest, when in reality, they are part of the forest. In so far as this saying goes, you would be focused on the small things and missing the important big picture. Or, wasting time and energy fighting over small things and missing the combined total of good and bad, that might make you happy.
> 
> Okay, now I will apologize. I needed to post that. It was really bugging me. Didn't mean to make you think I don't care about your issue. I was having one myself.


LOL, no, THANK you. I can't STAND it when people get sayings wrong. Of course I'm oblivious when I do, so it doesn't bother me as much, but I appreciate you not letting me run around ignorant (on that one thing at least).

I hate when people say CHOMPING at the bit. It's CHAMPING. Look it up.
Or when they use the word comprise incorrectly. People use it wrong so much many authorities now say using it wrong is acceptable. WTH? And people butcher words, phrases, and grammar so much now that you're the A-hole-with-an-issue if you dare mention it. 

I personally appreciate the free education!

Now, don't get me started on people who don't know the difference between then and than and are and our...


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

How long have you been married? How much quality time do you spend together? Could you cook together, that works for us. 

And those grammar things bother me two


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Any story that starts with booze is going yo end bad. But, based on what you have shared here, it sounds like he really isn't sympathetic to your needs. If my wife raises an objection like this we would discuss it. He may have been planning this move to the front all along and your objection was out of left field for him. But, he should still stay with you.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Hmmm... you have stated several times here how you feel, then with such clarity it is probable that he knows this as well. I can almost assure you that your words here reflect your actions there with him... I would be one depressed puppy if my wife felt this way about me and wonder why she is still in any form of a relationship with me.

Do you see any codependent traits in yourself?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> If he cannot work because of some pain issues, what has he done for pain management? Has he tried to get on disability?
> 
> If he is not earning a living, what does he do all day long?


Also.. how long have you been married?

Could you please answer these questions. They are very important in figuring out what is going on.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> He has not made a living since we got married. I am not a spender but I am 50 with no life savings, no children (we couldn't afford them) not living where I want, rather living where he wants, albeit where we met, but cost of living is high, we could save over $1,000 a month immediately moving somewhere cheaper.


How old is he?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> Also.. how long have you been married?
> 
> Could you please answer these questions. They are very important in figuring out what is going on.


Thank you so much for your help and I promise I will answer all questions from everyone probably tomorrow afternoon - I have been swamped with work today prepping for tomorrow. I just peeked in here but haven't read through things - I need to go to bed.

I can tell you quickly that he's taking pain pills right now as needed, but the headache ones don't help at all. They're trying botox for the headaches but so far it hasn't worked (it's supposed to take time.) Vicodin or Percocet for other pain help but they depress him and he tries not to take them.

He's been to specialist after specialist the last 8 years. We've tried some diet changes which did seem to help but either not enough or he fell off it and was discouraged.

I believe his pain is very real but I also believe there is a psychological component to it. Everytime they have been able to fix one source of pain (he had back surgery once for a bulging disk) before surgery, all that hurt was his back (literally could not walk many days) but surgery worked, yet as soon as that pain was resolved, another debilitating pain popped up somewhere else.

He used to be in too much pain to do anything he didn't want to do, but he'd still do things he wanted, like ball games. I didn't think he was faking it but I believed other people in equal pain held down jobs and raised families, etc.

In the last few months he's not doing things he really loves so I am sure it's worse and worse.

He did finally get on an antidepressant for pain (cymbalta?) that really helped his personality (IMO) significantly where he wasn't so relentlessly irritated, but I am sure he is still depressed and does not feel good about himself.

He is seeing more specialists (neurologists, pain specialists, etc.)

I'll read the questions over tomorrow after work and respond properly. I REALLY appreciate everyone's interest and help.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

> I told him: "I don't want to go up front." He said "I do." and left me.
> 
> Was that an ass move on his part or were we just two people that wanted different things at that moment, no big deal? Also two buzzed people not behaving as maturely as usual.


Yes, he chose his own needs of the moment over yours. It was a selfish thing to do. He isn't sensitive to your feelings in big crowds. Someone who cared about you wouldn't have left, but I think you know this.

I would have gone home, and taken the car for him to find his own way back. Did you have money to leave, I can't remember.

Whatever happened, never go out with him again without your own money. He can't be trusted to care for you, sorry to say.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> My phone had been left at home and he had all our cash in his pocket.
> 
> I told him: "I don't want to go up front." He said "I do." and left me.
> 
> It's just that he wants what he wants and he has no trouble taking it and he has no trouble refusing to do anything I want to do that doesn't appeal to him (which is 90% of what I want to do.) While we get along well I am not fulfilled in our marriage and I spend most of my time wishing I had not married *him* for many reasons.


My ex was a version of this. Your H is a selfish tool. Plan for divorce. Do you have a job? If not, get one asap. Do you have kids? If not, please don't. For their sake more than yours.

You can try counselling but I'd only bother if he can even acknowledge he has a problem. Good luck.


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## IamSomebody (Nov 21, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> A few days ago we went to an outdoor open seating concert with some other friends. We looked forward to this one outing for sometime. We had drinks before and were both pretty buzzed. My phone had been left at home and *he had all our cash in his pocket*.


You are the sole breadwinner your H doesn't contribute a dime yet he gets to hold all the money? Could he get any more controlling? He has spent al your retirement funds for his lifestyle. At this point, you will be working until you drop while he does what he wants on your dime.

You say marrying him was a mistake an everything is what he wants and virtually nothing what you want. He married you not for love but because he viewed you as a meal ticket. Undo the mistake, dump his sorry a$$ and take care of yourself for a change

IamSomebody


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

From the little I've read here, it sounds to me like you're the only one working on this marriage.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Next time, 

1. Make sure you have your phone. 
2. Never go anywhere without your own money. 
3. Don't get buzzed if you forgot 1 and 2. You need a clear head to take responsibility for your own plan B's if something bad happens. You got scared and you would not have been as scared if you were prepared. 

I think your husband was being P-A and mean but you also need to take better care of yourself, especially when he's acted like this once already. He could do it again unless he has a very clear reason to stop. 

Google the "Policy of Joint Agreement." If you can't agree to something, you don't do it. Simple. And it's a rule you both have to agree to abide by.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

The best advice so far in this thread:



> Next time,
> 
> 1. Make sure you have your phone.
> 2. Never go anywhere without your own money.
> ...





Read "Boundaries" and "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty".

What your husband did was wrong, but I think you helped create this issue and probably others. If he doesn't come around in time and with some straight forward communication, you have a bigger problem.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

Is not a big deal, you are a making I a big deal, which in essence is a big deal. 

Some of us believe that once we are married, the other person MUST absolutely do everything we want to do, and that we must be joint by the hip. I do not believe so. Blah, I am divorce so.....

Just follow the others advice, but please stop let your hubby do things he enjoys


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I am so glad he did not have a migraine on the day of the concert so that he could go right up front. How very convenient for him.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> I was telling him he was being rude (people were rolling their eyes at him and making comments to me).


His rudeness would have been the biggest problem for me. I hate people who do stuff like that.



WorkingWife said:


> He has not made a living since we got married. I am not a spender but I am 50 with no life savings, no children (we couldn't afford them) not living where I want, rather living where he wants, albeit where we met, but cost of living is high, we could save over $1,000 a month immediately moving somewhere cheaper.
> 
> Before we even married I got sucked into helping him financially and then he became dependent on me. I liquidated my retirement account to pay his extravagant (in my opinion) rent at the time. Now he has health issues where he's essentially in severe pain with terrible migraines and other intense body pains almost every day and he really CAN'T work.
> 
> ...


Wow. I don't see the point in being married to him. How long has it been?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

As very often happens, one incident is not a big deal. But we often will focus on a smaller incident when the big picture is too much to handle.. you know not seeing the forest for the trees.

Often times the first post on a thread is the tip of the thread. If we keep pulling the thread (asking questions and talking) we get to the major issues. I think that in her subsequent posts, WorkingWife brought up some of her major issues. There might be more. I'm hoping that with more info we can help her clarify some things in her life.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> I believe his pain is very real but I also believe there is a psychological component to it. Everytime they have been able to fix one source of pain (he had back surgery once for a bulging disk) before surgery, all that hurt was his back (literally could not walk many days) but surgery worked, yet as soon as that pain was resolved, another debilitating pain popped up somewhere else.
> 
> He used to be in too much pain to do anything he didn't want to do, but he'd still do things he wanted, like ball games. I didn't think he was faking it but I believed other people in equal pain held down jobs and raised families, etc.


Read Dr. Sarno's "Mind-body Prescription". The "fix one thing and another pops up" is a dead giveaway. Unfortunately, he won't believe the solution.

I have chronic pain but I hold down a job. 

I'm pretty sure Dr. Sarno has my problem down as well. I just need to work on believing it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

x598 said:


> here is the way I see it....just my opinion.
> 
> was your husband selfish or inconsiderate insisting on moving up front?
> 
> ...


She felt embarrassed at walking through people's spaces, trampling on their blankets, etc.

But her husband had no such qualms. 

And maybe there's a problem right there?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you so much for your help and I promise I will answer all questions from everyone probably tomorrow afternoon - I have been swamped with work today prepping for tomorrow. I just peeked in here but haven't read through things - I need to go to bed.
> 
> I can tell you quickly that he's taking pain pills right now as needed, but the headache ones don't help at all. They're trying botox for the headaches but so far it hasn't worked (it's supposed to take time.) Vicodin or Percocet for other pain help but they depress him and he tries not to take them.
> 
> ...


He has my sympathy as I suffered with severe migraines for a number of years.

I'd get two a week, maybe more and I would more often then not be sick, which was a sign the attack was soon to come to an end.

Two things that helped toward the end of an attack a can of Cola (with sugar and caffeine) and a Mars Bar.

Eventually I was diagnosed with High Blood pressure, put on medication for that... and my migraines went down to a couple or so a year.

So, have his blood pressure checked, it might help.


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

With how he was acting, I would have been thankful that he chose to go up front by himself. Good riddance. Is the incident itself a big deal? No, I don't think so but I think this is probably more about that your husband just does whatever he wants all the time. You feel unimportant? 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

x598 said:


> when I said "something to pout about" it didn't just mean that evening....but the next day when you felt it necessary to bring it up. I applaud you for not letting it ruin the evening or your friends' enjoyment of the event.
> 
> let me ask you this....do you think had you not been drinking this would have possibly been a non-issue?


I really don't know re the drinking. If he'd been sober he might no have been so hell bent on betting up front, but if he was and I was sober, I probably would have been less willing to say NO, go one without me. I believe the alcohol definitely affected both our behavior. However, we don't drink often (I don't think...) and when we do, we've never had a conflict or issue with each other.

Regarding pouting - I never did pout about it that day or later. I am asking on here if it is a big deal because I believe I have allowed him (and many others) to treat me poorly historically and I'm trying to be stronger and more aware of what I want/need. I've grown so accustomed to "going with the flow" that I really don't even know what I want half the time. I'm curious how other's would see it, including my not going up front with him.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> I really don't know re the drinking. If he'd been sober he might no have been so hell bent on betting up front, but if he was and I was sober, I probably would have been less willing to say NO, go one without me. I believe the alcohol definitely affected both our behavior.


So, from what you are reporting, there are already issues in the marriage. No, alcohol is definitely a bad idea when there are already issues being put on the back burner or brushed under the rug. And from what you have posted, it sounds like you have built up a lot of resentment. Unfortunately, your brought a good deal of that resentment upon yourself. I still don't have an answer as to why you married this man or why you felt the need to rescue him. I would suggest, again, you seriously consider why.



WorkingWife said:


> I am asking on here if it is a big deal because I believe I have allowed him (and many others) to treat me poorly historically and I'm trying to be stronger and more aware of what I want/need. I've grown so accustomed to "going with the flow" that I really don't even know what I want half the time. I'm curious how other's would see it, including my not going up front with him.


This is the tip of the iceberg. You are focusing on a specific issue. But there is a much broader issue here. Yes, you allowed him to treat you in a way you did not want. However, he also is a free agent to do what he wants. I'm only getting your side of this. But I hope you will take this seriously: You have MAJOR codependency issues. M-A-J-O-R. Take it from me. I'm the poster child for codependency. I didn't know what I wanted, let alone IF I wanted it. I was a doormat. I did not trust my own gut instincts. I allowed myself to be dragged under the bus. And it happened with women friends as well as men.

If you weren't codependent, you certainly wouldn't have married a man with no job. If he is disabled, he can start the process for getting disability. However, much of your anger is at yourself for allowing somebody to do things to you that you don't like. Boundaries? You don't have any, let alone know how to effectively put them in place and enforce them.

I'm sorry, but you brought a lot of this misery upon yourself. He might very well be a self-serving, narcissistic SOB. But you had a fairly good idea of who he was going into this.

So how about looking at the bigger issue, rather than one isolated situation? Seriously.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> With your last two posts, we have a better picture of things.
> 
> You really need to get into counseling to learn how to set boundaries and maintain them. There are some good books on amazon.com on the topic too.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, I'm sorry I could not respond sooner.

I will look into counseling. I have been thinking about it - I know if it was someone else I would say "just move already."

Would you suggest I plan the move and go and then say "Please come with me?" or that I tell him all along what I am doing? I have been telling him I plan to move after the end of this year and "I hope he will come with me." but I know he does not take me seriously. 

He says: "You come across like this person who thinks location is everything and that if you move you will just magically be happy but you can't be happy here." And I told him he was essentially saying the same thing - that he can only be happy where we are now, so obviously HE considers "location" to be crucial. Why does it make sense for him but not me? And then were were getting irate so we dropped the subject. 

WHAT HE DOES ALL DAY:

He watches TV and does stuff on the internet
He tries to exercise but it's rare that he really can any more.
Some days he has to sleep a lot - 2 or 3 naps.
He studies business stuff 
Recently he's been sunbathing some to try to be less depressed
Comes up with marketing ideas for my business (which are often quite brilliant but always more work for me).
He's on a board for a charity and sometimes gets involved in that.
He gets groceries for his aging mother.
He dos most of the cleaning, laundry, and things like getting our cars registered
Mostly he watches TV and waits for me to take a break and the day to end.

PAIN MANAGEMENT
I said in another post, he's on pain pills and has tried some diet things. He's seeing doctors and always hoping for an answer but no one has one so far. Different doctors dismiss prior doctor's diagnosis. Right now his main pain management is staying still and suffering.

I honestly believe that if he had an actual job it would distract him from his pain and give him purpose so he'd be less depressed, but he had his own business when I met him. It was very successful back then but he hated it and less than a year into our dating his business started going downhill, then I started helping him. Always with promises that he'd pay me back but before I knew it I was basically paying his bills. Then I married him... And it was about the time we got married that he started having pain. In his hands at first and I just thought it was too much remote control/mouse, but it increased to shooting pains in hands and feet, and that was 12 + years ago where he's just steadily declined. 

Sorry so long - my point is he's in his 50's now and has never had a "job" as an adult so any "job" that he could get is totally beneath him in his mind, and wouldn't make enough money to be worthwhile. He's very wedded to the idea of being a business owner but he doesn't take action on it. He is in a lot of pain now but back when he was healthy he also procrastinated constantly.

DISABILITY
No he has never applied for that. We are both philosophically opposed to the idea of other tax payers giving us money unless we absolutely could not survive without it, though I may change my mind on that given how much health insurance suddenly is for the self employed. He did finally talk to a Dr. about writing a letter to get our electricity bill lowered because he needs to use AC. 

HOW LONG MARRIED
12 years but we dated and then lived together about 6 or 7 years first.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

CharlieParker said:


> How long have you been married? How much quality time do you spend together? Could you cook together, that works for us.
> 
> And those grammar things bother me two


We've been married a little over 12 years. "Together" close to 20 though.

We do not have much quality time together. Maybe 5 hours a week of total "conversation." 

Even though we're both home a lot, he's in pain most of the time and doesn't want to talk, though he has been trying to have more conversations with me. He would come into my office to visit me and I would try to be happy to see him but I'm really stressed over undone work and phone calls and emails. I usually end up working about 12 hours a day. We eat one main meal together. We were trying to do things like go out for lunch but he's been in so much pain the last few months he always cancels that. I have more travel for work suddenly now too. 

When we do spend more time together I notice that I feel a lot more loving toward him. I am thinking I need to just force myself to spend the time with him and then I'll feel more loving but I've not done it yet.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

VladDracul said:


> How old is he?


Early 50's


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> Thank you so much, I'm sorry I could not respond sooner.
> 
> I will look into counseling. I have been thinking about it - I know if it was someone else I would say "just move already."
> 
> ...


Does he have migraines?

If so I believe working will NOT have any impact on his migraine attacks. It didn’t with me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

x598 said:


> in my opinion.....this is a classic covert contract...not cool.
> 
> the effect of booze on both of you, clearly.
> 
> ...


You may not be *trying *to be a jerk, but you *are * being one regardless... (I guess you've reached the level of unconscious competence!) I appreciate your insight as it is helpful despite your tone, but you are unreasonable to say I decided to use this "tiff" like a "bomb" to gather "cheerleaders."

There never *WAS *a "tiff"
I *asked *if others thought it was a big deal because I lack confidence in my ability to be truly objective.

I am aware that my marriage is not happy for me. And I am aware that I bear responsibility in that. But I feel very stuck - unable to make changes on my own - I'm looking for some perspective and suggestions. I'm not trying to gather a bunch of anonymous cheerleaders to tell me I some poor little victim who has done nothing wrong. Clearly I've done plenty wrong or I wouldn't be in the position I'm in right now.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I just want to clarify, you are self employed and do not have a job outside of that business. Is this right?

Do you work from home? Or do you have an office away from home?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Okay. I'm trying to help here, but I would really appreciate it if you would stop for a minute and look inward. I'm sure it could hurt and be frightening, but could you possibly respond to what I have posted? I mean, you are even doubting if you should move without his input, right? That is up to you. But can you just look at bit deeper and go beyond the superficial stuff? It might help us to help you.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> From what you've said here, it sounds like your husband is a user who doesn't meet your needs. You hold all the cards, but you are allowing him to play the hand.
> 
> I couldn't stay with a man like this. I'd have zero respect for him. He's mooched off you from the beginning. You allowed it. I think you need to focus your energies on discovering why you would stay with this type of man. Is it better to have this man than no man at all?
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your post. Everything you said is what I have been thinking. I want to say "but he has these good qualities..." and he definitely does. But I sound like one of those abused women who won't leave - except he's not abusive, and I do enjoy his company, but you know what I mean. It just sounds very lame. 

I have been trying to figure out why I have been allowing this and I have some hypothesis... They are a little more insightful that "I'm just weak" but I have been very weak. I don't mean that like an *excuse *like "It's not my fault I am not strong enough to pick up that weight." I mean it more like an explanation - I have behaved in an incredibly weak/pathetic manner and therefore this is where I now find myself.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Satya said:


> Next time,
> 
> 1. Make sure you have your phone.
> 2. Never go anywhere without your own money.
> ...


I am familiar with the POJA in fact it was what I was trying to do when I stopped going forward with him. I have been trying to implement it and I have a hard time saying no to him about anything but I had clarity at that moment - I did NOT want to progress. I will keep working on it because the one thing I learned from the POJA is that it's your own responsibility to not do things you don't want to do.

I will take your advice on 1,2, & 3 - for the record, he'd grabbed my things for me and gone out a different door (I locked up) and he didn't know my phone was beside my purse not in it. And I did have money - it was just in HIS pocket which I realize now is just more abdicating responsibility for myself on my part. #3 I think is just going to be a new rule for me. Since we seldom go out, every time we do I want to drink. I'm thinking it's not so cute at my age...


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Read "Boundaries" and "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty".
> 
> What your husband did was wrong, but I think you helped create this issue and probably others. If he doesn't come around in time and with some straight forward communication, you have a bigger problem.


Thank you I am going to read those books - "When I say no I feel guilty" - OMG, that is ME. I "KNOW" consciously that I'm not guilty and he won't shrivel up and die if he doesn't get he way every time - God knows I've made it this far in life not getting my way - but it doesn't matter what I know, I _*feel *_so guilty/bad to say no.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> I have behaved in an incredibly weak/pathetic manner and therefore this is where I now find myself.


That's okay. I think you need to dig deeper as to why you have behaved in a weak/pathetic manner. You are seeking answers. Believe me, I understand more than you know. Really. 

Maybe you allow him to shame you because you shame yourself. Right now I think you need to acquire the tools to learn to love yourself and be strong in your convictions. Y'know, it's not just him who has beaten you down, you've done it to yourself too.

No judgment here, just hope I can help in some way. Please keep posting. People here really do care about your situation.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> I am so glad he did not have a migraine on the day of the concert so that he could go right up front. How very convenient for him.


LOL - he said he did, but I'm sure the alcohol helped dull the pain...

In the last few months he has actually started missing some things I am pretty sure he really wanted to do, but prior to that his "pain" has aways seemed miraculously "manageable" when there was something he wanted to do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

WorkingWife,

Your situation reminds me a lot of mine when I joined TAM in 2011.

I was married to a guy who was laid off from work in about the middle of 2002. He never really found a job after that. He looked with little enthusiasm and eventually stopped pretending to look.

My situation differed because he had 100% custody of his two children who were 13 and 11. I had had my 11 year old son.

I became the breadwinner, never agreeing to take that on 100%. He did zero, yes I mean zero around the house and with the kids. He spend his days in his home office playing the internet and playing computer games. It go to where I only saw him when he got up in the morning and if I was awake at midnight when he crawled into bed.

He too constantly complained about bad pain. But like your husband, it never got in the way of him doing things that he wanted to do. 

When you married him, you did not agree to the be breadwinner. Your husband worked you until this became the status quo. And over time you just accepted it. You are squirming about it because you know that you got duped. There is no reason for you to feel bad about the way you feel about this. It’s an honest emotion and you need to accept it and own it.

What it sounds like is that your husband had some legitimate health and pain issues back then. And he started to use them as an excuse. It limited his life. His limited life lead to depression. The depression made the pain worse. And the more sedentary he has been, the worse the pain get. He’s in his 50’s right? He has pain right? Welcome to getting older for a person how hardly moves. It’s going to get a lot worse as he ages if he does not start moving and taking care of the issues.

How much pain killer is he on and what type (I don’t necessarily expect you to post that here.) You say he’s taking pain killers and drinking. No good at all.
Just the 2-3 naps a day is a huge sign of serious, clinical depression. Do his doctors know that he is sleeping that much?

It sounds like your husband has tried to address his pain issues but it’s not really working as he gets a new pain when on goes away. Have you checked out a pain clinic for him? Something that is more of an immersion? 

Also, you say that he seems very self-centered, selfish. That’s pretty normal for a person who is in a deep depression and/or chronically ill. Any kind of long term illness or depression turns a person’s focus inward. That’s how they survive. 

You say that he does not want to get on disability because he does not want to use other people’s tax money. We pay taxes in this country to help people who need it. You pay those taxes too. Plus, his refusal to take tax money is a way to keep himself tied to you. After all you cannot do anything because you are responsible for him. It puts a huge guilt trip on you, after all how could you leave a disabled man? I got to understand this little dynamic back in 2011/2012. It’s stifling. He’s willing to put that burden on you but too proud to take tax money?

There is an outside chance that he could get disability. But the gov is looking for any way to kick people off of disability. It’s very hard to get.

By 2011, his kids and my son were out of high school, in college and working. Now that the kids were out of the house I had to deal with the issues with my husband.

What I did was to tell my husband that I was nearing retirement and the day was coming when I would no longer be able to support him. So he had to find a way to start supporting himself. We divorced. We agreed on the terms so I did the paperwork myself. The entire thing cost me $135. He still lived in the house my son and I lived in, but moved to another bedroom.

Then I sent him down the welfare and he got on EBT and Medicare. For a while that was all he could get. He did not want to try for disability as it embarrassed him. I just kept repeating that I would not be able to support him once I retired. I took zero responsibility at that point to help him figure this out. Just kept repeating my mantra… “I will not be able to support you in the future.”

It took him about 16 months, but he came up with a small business idea that made sense. It was solid, so I helped him put that together. I did spend the money to get the business started. By early 2014 he was getting clients. Today he’s supporting himself. He’s doing a lot better. I can tell that he feels a lot better about himself now that he’s turned this around.

Now your situation is a bit different than mine because you say that he does the house work and shopping. That’s good. Does he do them 100%? If not about how much of the chores, cooking, etc do you do?

One thing that you need to realize is that you are not doing him any favors allowing this to continue. I agree that there is some kind of co-dependency going on. Co-dependency is when you put the needs of someone else ahead of your own needs. It’s like you are running around trying to keep them from imploding, all the while ignoring yourself. But look at that analogy. There is also a strong element of control there… co-decency is also a type of controlling behavior. By trying to keep everything together your focus is on controlling him and the situation. To end the co-dependency, stop trying to hold it all together. Let the situation and him implode.

This is not him bad and you good. This is that you two are caught up in a co-dependent dance and it is pulling both of you down.

Have you read the book 

Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself by Melody Beattie

I think that it would really help you. The author has more books that might also be helpful.

Also, you say that he seems very self-centered, selfish. That’s pretty normal for a person who is in a deep depression and/or chronically ill. Any kind of long term illness or depression turns a person’s focus inward. That’s how they survive. 

Another good book to read after the co-dependency book is “Divorce Busting”. There are some good things in it about how to deal with a spouse who is in their own little world and how to change your own behavior, in a unilaterally way, and thus force change in a marriage.

I believe that you said that you have already read the Marriage Builder books. Those are good too.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> Does he have migraines?
> 
> If so I believe working will NOT have any impact on his migraine attacks. It didn’t with me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes the migraines are the newest development, they've been going on about a year, year and a half.

When you had a migraine could you work when you were having a bad migraine? I think working would distract him from it - I know when I don't feel well if I have to work I just power through. But I've only had one severe headache in my life, but it was so bad I could barely focus my eyes to call into work, there's no way I could have driven a car. Though he does sometimes drive when he has a migraine. But often he cancels any plans.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I just want to clarify, you are self employed and do not have a job outside of that business. Is this right?
> 
> Do you work from home? Or do you have an office away from home?


Correct, I am a consultant of sorts. I work from home. No outside office but I go see clients a lot too. Sometimes I work from home for a couple months straight, but lately I've been going on-site to clients a week or two a month. Right now I have about 4 out of own trips over the next 5 months, all one or two weeks long.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> WorkingWife,
> 
> Your situation reminds me a lot of mine when I joined TAM in 2011...


Thank you so much for your post. This is very enlightening. I am going to respond tomorrow evening.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> Okay. I'm trying to help here, but I would really appreciate it if you would stop for a minute and look inward. I'm sure it could hurt and be frightening, but could you possibly respond to what I have posted? I mean, you are even doubting if you should move without his input, right? That is up to you. But can you just look at bit deeper and go beyond the superficial stuff? It might help us to help you.


Sorry if I am being obtuse! Are you asking me to say the reasons I think I have been the way I have been? Some things I don't really want to say even though it's an anonymous forum because I feel I've given a lot of details where someone could recognize me. Regardless I think I will have time to post most of my thoughts tomorrow evening. I really do appreciate your (and everyone's) help.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> Yes the migraines are the newest development, they've been going on about a year, year and a half.
> 
> When you had a migraine could you work when you were having a bad migraine? I think working would distract him from it - I know when I don't feel well if I have to work I just power through. But I've only had one severe headache in my life, but it was so bad I could barely focus my eyes to call into work, there's no way I could have driven a car. Though he does sometimes drive when he has a migraine. But often he cancels any plans.


Either depends. Sometimes I could but mainly I couldn't.

A migraine is NOT just a headache. It is as if your brain is turned off and your thinking abilities are gone. 

I once phoned in to work sick and then woke up at work and I still have no idea how I made the six mile journey to work.

As I was vomiting all the time my boss had me taken home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

https://www.amazon.com/Codependent-...474379926&sr=1-1&keywords=codependent+no+more

I have the kindle version... it's brilliant.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Do you give him an allowance? Keep your finances separate? If not, do so. If he wants more cash that will stimulate him to get a job. As for the rest, you seem determined to stick it out (many wouldn't) in which case you KNOW his personality tends toward selfish so stop putting yourself in positions where he can hurt you. If he wants to go to a concert, fine let him go. Hang out with your own friends and let him do his thing. It's clear he doesn't want to do it with you anyway. Give him what he wants.

I know someone whose migraines were causes by narrow sinus passages. Small changes in pressure were triggers (weather, travel, etc.). This surgery made them go away:

Nasal Surgery Brings Hope to Migraine Sufferers - ABC News


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

He should be checked for sleep apnia for the headaches, depression, and naps. Does he snore loudly? That is a sign.

His blood pressure may be way up, too. His blood sugar levels should also be checked. All these things and more should be done by his doctor, or ordered by his doctor. 

His heart probably needs checked, as well. 

Those books should help you to find your voice.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

x598 said:


> here is the way I see it....just my opinion.
> 
> was your husband selfish or inconsiderate insisting on moving up front?
> 
> ...


You summed up my thoughts exactly.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> Are you asking me to say the reasons I think I have been the way I have been?


You may not be aware of all the reasons at this point; however, some things might come to mind. Were you/are you the adult child of an alcoholic? Did you have controlling parents? Were you expected to behave in an adult manner when you were a child? It could be a million things. But you've brought unhappiness on yourself based on some of the decisions you have made, and my guess is it could stem from unresolved issues elsewhere in your life. Please don't construe in any way I'm a psychologist or trying to analyze you. I'm just asking that you think about how you ended up in this situation.



WorkingWife said:


> Some things I don't really want to say even though it's an anonymous forum because I feel I've given a lot of details where someone could recognize me.


Request a moderator move this to the Private Members forum. Please keep in mind that I'm not digging to determine your identity. But some more information could give us a little more to work with.

Whether what your husband did was a big deal or not is not the point, from my perspective. If I expect someone to be thoughtful and considerate when they have a history of not behaving in such a manner, my expectations are setting ME up for disappointment. Whether he was being a selfish a$$ or not is not relevant. From my perspective, what is relevant is you feel your are being treated like a doormat. You are posting here, so I'm interested in what is going on with YOU, not him.

I was married to an alcoholic. As time went on, I was no longer angry, annoyed, or downright amazed at his outrageous behavior. I learned to detach from him by getting lots of counseling and attending Al-Anon. I got my focus off the alcoholic and on to the only thing I could ultimately control - myself.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> Yes the migraines are the newest development, they've been going on about a year, year and a half.
> 
> When you had a migraine could you work when you were having a bad migraine? I think working would distract him from it - I know when I don't feel well if I have to work I just power through. But I've only had one severe headache in my life, but it was so bad I could barely focus my eyes to call into work, there's no way I could have driven a car. Though he does sometimes drive when he has a migraine. But often he cancels any plans.


Don't fall for it.

And skim Dr. Sarno's "The Mind-Body Prescription". It's very likely what's going on with his pain problems.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Read Dr. Sarno's "Mind-body Prescription". The "fix one thing and another pops up" is a dead giveaway. Unfortunately, he won't believe the solution.
> 
> I have chronic pain but I hold down a job.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Dr. Sarno has my problem down as well. I just need to work on believing it.


Thank you I will look into this. I pointed out to him that his body is like that saying "nature abhors a vacuum" - every time one thing is solved another pops up. It really freaked him out because he realized it is true. He will read things and try things but so far never sticks with any one thing long enough to know if it works. 

Physical things are definitely happening because he's had surgeries for things that show up in MRIs, however, my hypothesis is that he has ridiculously high standards that are not really attainable. He is nowhere close to meeting them so he procrastinates (on building his business or whatever). That makes him dependent on me. He feels guilty and like a loser for not pulling his weight. That depresses him. The depression further paralyzes him. The longer it goes on, the worse he feels about himself but the more he tries to keep up appearances for others. Not feeling good started long after his underachieving but it was fortuitous in that it got sympathy from me and gave him an excuse in his own mind for not doing anything. 

He doesn't consciously think: I'm going to make myself sick because I'm a selfish lazy jerk and I'd rather stress my wife out and be dependent on others than work! But when he doesn't accomplish anything, the fact that he's sick explains it and saves face for him. Since he's got all day free, he becomes hyper focused on his pain. 

I'm not a doctor but I think his subconscious is making him sick so he does not have to face the reality of his inaction.

We have talked about the fact that if I had not enabled him - starting years ago - he would probably be a very different person today because he would not have had the option to not make a living. Now it's progressed so far that he's really in a bad situation with his age and lack of work experience and health issues.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Read Dr. Sarno's "Mind-body Prescription". The "fix one thing and another pops up" is a dead giveaway. Unfortunately, he won't believe the solution.


He might believe it - I just bought him the book plus audio narration for him.  I saw "suppressed anger" in the description and clicked "purchase with one click" (I know he has serious suppressed anger from his childhood.)


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> He has my sympathy as I suffered with severe migraines for a number of years.
> 
> I'd get two a week, maybe more and I would more often then not be sick, which was a sign the attack was soon to come to an end.
> 
> ...


Thanks, he actually had really good blood pressure but the put him on blood pressure medication regardless because the insurance co. insists they try that before more expensive things. Now his blood pressure is super low.

So when you had migraines were you able to work? I don't get them so I don't know what it's like. He does not get nauseous sick from them but he describes them as extremely painful. Of course before the migraines, something else in his body was always super painful.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> He should be checked for sleep apnia for the headaches, depression, and naps. Does he snore loudly? That is a sign.
> 
> His blood pressure may be way up, too. His blood sugar levels should also be checked. All these things and more should be done by his doctor, or ordered by his doctor.
> 
> ...


He was checked for sleep apnia and we were stunned that it came back negative. I swear he breathes so shallow and sometimes not at all for long periods but per the test he's fine... He snores as he falls asleep but not loud and stops snoring once he's been asleep a bit. He's had tons of tests - even brain scans - he does have lesions on his brain but they're not getting worse and not in the MS area so they could be from a childhood illness. His heart apparently is extremely healthy. I'll make sure they've checked his blood sugar. Maybe he has lyme disease! Or low testosterone. He has been gaining weight and can't drop it even though he's over 6' and usually eats no more than I do.

All the posts on here are really helping me realize how much I am enabling the problem. Now I need to figure out what I can actually do about it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> He was checked for sleep apnia and we were stunned that it came back negative. I swear he breathes so shallow and sometimes not at all for long periods but per the test he's fine... He snores as he falls asleep but not loud and stops snoring once he's been asleep a bit. He's had tons of tests - even brain scans - he does have lesions on his brain but they're not getting worse and not in the MS area so they could be from a childhood illness. His heart apparently is extremely healthy. I'll make sure they've checked his blood sugar. Maybe he has lyme disease! Or low testosterone. He has been gaining weight and can't drop it even though he's over 6' and usually eats no more than I do.
> 
> All the posts on here are really helping me realize how much I am enabling the problem. Now I need to figure out what I can actually do about it.


During really bad attacks I actually felt so bad I wanted to die.

The saying is 'when you first have a bad migraine attack, you think you are going to die.

'With subsequent attacks you know you aren't going to die, but you wish you could.'

Some attacks took my sight for a while. I was incapable of ratiobalance thought and had to take to my bed for a day or more. 

Some attacks lasted three days or even more. 

Work? Not a chance during a bad attack.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

sapientia said:


> Do you give him an allowance? Keep your finances separate? If not, do so. If he wants more cash that will stimulate him to get a job. As for the rest, you seem determined to stick it out (many wouldn't) in which case you KNOW his personality tends toward selfish so stop putting yourself in positions where he can hurt you. If he wants to go to a concert, fine let him go. Hang out with your own friends and let him do his thing. It's clear he doesn't want to do it with you anyway. Give him what he wants.
> 
> I know someone whose migraines were causes by narrow sinus passages. Small changes in pressure were triggers (weather, travel, etc.). This surgery made them go away:
> 
> Nasal Surgery Brings Hope to Migraine Sufferers - ABC News


No our finances are not separate. In fact, don't shoot me, but he basically has total control of them. I invoice clients and payment goes into our business account. The business is in both our names even though I do 95% of the work. He takes care of paying all the bills for us. That's a long story I won't digress into but the bottom line is that if I were to decide to leave him I'm not even sure how I could/would do it. 

My income is not steady being self employed but it seems it's usually just enough to keep up with our bills. I haven't looked into it yet but I don't know if I could just go take half (or all) of our money out of the account. Could I have clients write checks to me personally instead of the company? All our accounts are joint accounts - can I secretly open a new account in just my name? 

I'm just thinking out loud.

I don't know... I don't know how I could afford to rent a second place. If I were to tell him to leave... where would he go? If I packed up and left him - where would he live? He has no real income of his own. We have animals that we both love. If I move, I want to move out of state. I'd have to rent at first. Could I do that with pets? If I took the pets he'd be devastated, but they're more attached to me than him, I'd feel horrible to leave them. 

I'm not saying this as an excuse to stay with him but I honestly think he might commit suicide if I left him.

So - I don't know if I'm determined to stick it out or not. Aside from the episode that prompted me to start this thread, in the last year he has been trying very hard to be a better husband and be less selfish and demanding, and I've been trying to stand up for what I want more. It's not like I don't like him or enjoy his company at all. If I had a choice between living the rest of my life alone doing whatever I wanted or living with him, having his companionship, I would rather have his companionship. But that doesn't fix the fact that I'm a 50 year old workaholic with no children and no retirement savings. Without him in the picture I could probably save $30 to $50 K a year. I do love him but he does not meet my needs and I know I am running out of time.

I have been telling him that I'm going to move to another state and I hope he will join me. I doubt he believes me. He's definitely not happy about the idea.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

So were you able to hold down a job if you were having a lot of these migraines? (I think his are bad but yours sound a lot worse.)



MattMatt said:


> During really bad attacks I actually felt so bad I wanted to die.
> 
> The saying is 'when you first have a bad migraine attack, you think you are going to die.
> 
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> So were you able to hold down a job if you were having a lot of these migraines? (I think his are bad but yours sound a lot worse.)


I did hold down jobs but only because we do not have 'at will' employment contracts and have good sick pay options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> WorkingWife,
> 
> Your situation reminds me a lot of mine when I joined TAM in 2011.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will look into those, the sound helpful. I read MB Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs. That was when I actually started to realize how bad things were because he was meeting none of my needs but before I read HNHN I didn't think my needs were legitimate. I just thought I must be too needy that I wasn't satisfied that he would not have intimate conversation with me or really meet any of my needs. Love busters also made me realize how much he was constantly love busting me with Disrespectful judgments, and selfish demands, and other things. And I did LBs to him too that I identified. He listened to some of those books on tape and really got better. Also I learned how to say "I don't like it when you do that." calmly but firmly. Things are not where I want them to be but they are dramatically improved.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> He was checked for sleep apnia and we were stunned that it came back negative. I swear he breathes so shallow and sometimes not at all for long periods but per the test he's fine... He snores as he falls asleep but not loud and stops snoring once he's been asleep a bit. He's had tons of tests - even brain scans - he does have lesions on his brain but they're not getting worse and not in the MS area so they could be from a childhood illness. His heart apparently is extremely healthy. I'll make sure they've checked his blood sugar. Maybe he has lyme disease! Or low testosterone. He has been gaining weight and can't drop it even though he's over 6' and usually eats no more than I do.
> 
> All the posts on here are really helping me realize how much I am enabling the problem. Now I need to figure out what I can actually do about it.


Those two books I posted will help you. Boundaries is very good. The other is also good, but Boundaries will help you know what you want and won't tolerate. Then, how to say no in the best manner possible. It's up to you.

If his sugar is messed up, his body won't be processing what he eats the way it should. The doctor can check that pretty easily.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> I'm not a doctor but I think his subconscious is making him sick so he does not have to face the reality of his inaction.


That's the basic idea. The pain is real but it's caused by your subconscious dealing with something it wants to distract your consciousness from. 

It's not knowingly faking pain. There are actual physical symptoms.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> No our finances are not separate. In fact, don't shoot me, but he basically has total control of them. I invoice clients and payment goes into our business account. The business is in both our names even though I do 95% of the work. He takes care of paying all the bills for us. That's a long story I won't digress into but the bottom line is that if I were to decide to leave him I'm not even sure how I could/would do it.
> 
> My income is not steady being self employed but it seems it's usually just enough to keep up with our bills. I haven't looked into it yet but I don't know if I could just go take half (or all) of our money out of the account. Could I have clients write checks to me personally instead of the company? All our accounts are joint accounts - can I secretly open a new account in just my name?


See a lawyer.



WorkingWife said:


> I'm not saying this as an excuse to stay with him but I honestly think he might commit suicide if I left him.


You CAN NOT let this enter into your decision to stay or leave.



WorkingWife said:


> If I move, I want to move out of state. I'd have to rent at first. Could I do that with pets? If I took the pets he'd be devastated, but they're more attached to me than him, I'd feel horrible to leave them.
> 
> I have been telling him that I'm going to move to another state and I hope he will join me. I doubt he believes me. He's definitely not happy about the idea.


Do you currently rent or own?


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

WorkingWife said:


> No our finances are not separate. In fact, don't shoot me, but he basically has total control of them. I invoice clients and payment goes into our business account. The business is in both our names even though I do 95% of the work. He takes care of paying all the bills for us. That's a long story I won't digress into but the bottom line is that if I were to decide to leave him I'm not even sure how I could/would do it.
> 
> My income is not steady being self employed but it seems it's usually just enough to keep up with our bills. I haven't looked into it yet but I don't know if I could just go take half (or all) of our money out of the account. Could I have clients write checks to me personally instead of the company? All our accounts are joint accounts - can I secretly open a new account in just my name?
> 
> ...


You seem like a very nice person. He's quite lucky and you are very unappreciated.

Yes, at your age and with no children you should be very well set up. Work should be optional for you and it's not. It's disturbing you are willing to risk your retirement this way. It's not completely too late; you could still work productively another 15 years but you'd have to make major changes asap (i.e. now).

Regarding your business, I don't know what you have set up but if you are incorporated and drawing a salary (from which you could give him an allowance) then yes, you could keep him out of your finances. I suspect you are a sole proprietorship and he has access to your joint account. That is a very bad idea, based on what I have read. Also, if you ever wanted to attract a partner to help you, they would never tolerate your arrangement with your H.

I wish you luck and happiness.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I would never leave my wife at a concert, especially if she's been drinking. i wouldn't have fun at a concert without her anyway. yeah that's a total **** move.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> That's okay. I think you need to dig deeper as to why you have behaved in a weak/pathetic manner. You are seeking answers. Believe me, I understand more than you know. Really.
> 
> Maybe you allow him to shame you because you shame yourself. Right now I think you need to acquire the tools to learn to love yourself and be strong in your convictions. Y'know, it's not just him who has beaten you down, you've done it to yourself too.
> 
> No judgment here, just hope I can help in some way. Please keep posting. People here really do care about your situation.


Sorry it's taking me so long to post this. Work is crazy right now.

I have been aware that I am co-dependent/pushover/weak/etc. and thinking about it for some time now. When I think "but why?" I've come up with these thoughts. #4 is my strongest hypothesis. I have one other that I don't want to post but I would tell you in a private message if you think you can offer help based on more specifics.

1. It is part of my natural personality/temperament. I say this because I can think back to when I was very young and I had this tendency then. I just froze up at any potential conflict and in particular, the idea of making anyone else unhappy or hurt.

2. I was adopted and while I never doubted that my parents loved me I always had this feeling of "I don't want to be a bother. Thank you for letting me be here." I used to have dreams that I would come home from school and my family would have moved away, or they would not let me in the house.

3. My older brother was abusive to me. He was very protective of me with other people, but he knocked me around quite a bit and he could have a jeckle and hyde personality. He'd also do things like steal money from me or borrow money and never pay me back, eat all of his share of the candy then ask for some of mine (and I'd give it to him), take things of mine and sell them to friends.

But did that contribute to my being this way today, or did the fact that I was always this way help create that dynamic? Despite the fact that he was violent at times, I was never afraid of him. I just wanted to make him happy.

4. My mother was very critical, demanding, judgmental and negative. No one could ever make her happy. I adored my father but in hindsight I can see that he was definitely not "emotionally available" to my mother. I saw all their problems as my shrill, demanding mother's fault because nothing was every enough for her. 

I never wanted to be that woman - difficult, needy, critical, demanding. I think I went overboard in the opposite direction where when I was in a relationship I would let the guy say/do anything and I never asked anything of him. I never wanted to put some guy through what my mom put my dad through. But now I realize that while my mother WAS (and still is) the things I described - my dad was kind of selfish emotionally. She was impossible to please, but he did not even try to please her. I wonder if I got the message not to expect anything of anyone because I had my father on a pedestal and was making excuses for his lack of coming through for my mom by thinking it's wrong to ask for anything.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Do you currently rent or own?


Rent - $3K a month.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> That's the basic idea. The pain is real but it's caused by your subconscious dealing with something it wants to distract your consciousness from.
> 
> It's not knowingly faking pain. There are actual physical symptoms.


He said he'll listen to the book. (Not sure when though...) I am going to start reading the book version. I saw a friend today who's known us for most of the time that his symptoms have gotten worse and worse and she said she thinks it's rooted in something psychological too. He says today is his worse headache ever...


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Those two books I posted will help you. Boundaries is very good. The other is also good, but Boundaries will help you know what you want and won't tolerate. Then, how to say no in the best manner possible. It's up to you.
> 
> If his sugar is messed up, his body won't be processing what he eats the way it should. The doctor can check that pretty easily.


Thanks I'll start with the boundaries one. I have been becoming more resolved about getting control of my financial life and moving whether he's happy about it or not, and I notice I feel really nervous and edgy - I am sure I am out of my comfort zone.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

I responded to this question from another post of yours just remembering what the question was. A couple more things - My father was very strict when we were little, but never unreasonable or unpredictable. We were told how to behave and expected to do it and I pretty much always did. My mom was very controlling, unpredictable, and critical/angry.

My parents were not alcoholics when I was a child but my biological mother was alcoholic and there was a lot of depression and other issues in her family. I was adopted as an infant though so I was not exposed to that behavior. When I got older - early 20's my dad got involved with a woman who is alcoholic and he started drinking a lot with her. That went on several years but again I did not grow up around it.

FWIW my H was raised with an alcoholic parent and I know that affected him greatly. I think Buddy posted about a book I got for him that said pain can come from suppressed rage and I think he has a lot of that. But that's probably no relevant to what made me tick the way I do.

I'm not sure I was expected to behave in an "adult" manner but I was always told how smart I was and expected to be one of the smartest in school. We were definitely expected to behave with manners. For example we were in 4-H and we'd have meetings with all the other kids and their parents at night and I remember after the meeting the kids running around roughhousing and my mom was the one yelling at my brother and me to stop. The other parents didn't seem concerned.

I do not think you're trying to figure out my identity! I'm more concerned about friend's I've told about this site deciding to check it out and recognizing me. And just a general feeling of exposure. 




Prodigal said:


> You may not be aware of all the reasons at this point; however, some things might come to mind. Were you/are you the adult child of an alcoholic? Did you have controlling parents? Were you expected to behave in an adult manner when you were a child? It could be a million things. But you've brought unhappiness on yourself based on some of the decisions you have made, and my guess is it could stem from unresolved issues elsewhere in your life. Please don't construe in any way I'm a psychologist or trying to analyze you. I'm just asking that you think about how you ended up in this situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Prodigal said:


> But I hope you will take this seriously: You have MAJOR codependency issues. M-A-J-O-R. Take it from me. I'm the poster child for codependency. I didn't know what I wanted, let alone IF I wanted it. I was a doormat. I did not trust my own gut instincts. I allowed myself to be dragged under the bus. And it happened with women friends as well as men.


That is me exactly. Some things I know I want but a lot of things I don't. It's like I've pushed that side of me down so far I literally don't know. (But even as a child I was like that, I always told Santa he could bring whatever he wanted. I didn't want to inconvenience him or ask for too much.)



Prodigal said:


> ...much of your anger is at yourself for allowing somebody to do things to you that you don't like. Boundaries? You don't have any, let alone know how to effectively put them in place and enforce them.


YES. I am so angry at myself. Before I got on hormones for menopause I would lay awake all night with a feeling of dread and self loathing just hating myself for passively letting all this happen to me. When I told my H how bad I felt about our financial situation and no kids he would say I should not compare myself to others and I just don't know how unhappy everyone else is.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WorkingWife said:


> Rent - $3K a month.


Great. So you can just not renew the lease and move.

Move out a month or two before the lease is up.

See a lawyer about the finances.

No house, no kids, this is do-able.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Good lord, the BIG DEAL here is that you have allowed yourself to be used all these years by a lazy man child! His "pain" is nothing more than an excuse to continue to not work and let you bear the responsibility for EVERYTHING. You stated that you don't even love him...leave him and go find a happy life for yourself!


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