# When is FWS allowed to be an imperfect person again?



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

I was reading on another thread about a FWS yelling at the BS about a non-affair related issue (over how he was disciplining a child), and it triggering the BS, even though the affair was years before.

I didn't want to threadjack, so I've started a thread to address the issue of WSes being allowed to not be perfect people, and make mistakes. Posters said that once the couple are in R, and the WS is repentant and no longer in the affair, they should not be expected to always be perfect, and every bad behavior should not be made out to be related to the affair.

Since my husband's EA several years ago, many of his personality weaknesses will take me right back to the days of the EA, or to his previous porn use, or to his financial infidelity, or to the fact that he chose to get jobs away from home beginning a year before the EA.

He is not in an affair anymore, he is not looking at porn anymore, he is trying to get work that will allow him to be home, and he is committed to our financial plan. In fact, he is committed to figuring out his "stuff" and becoming a better person, and I see him changing in good ways.

The problem is that certain personality traits, like answering back in a snippy or condescending way (stemming from low self esteem overcompensated with excess pride) or perceived passive aggressive behavior will cause me to feel insecure and unsafe, and I will go all the way back to the adultery and berate him for it. I don't know how to get past the affair. I have been told I have not forgiven him for it. I though I had, but evidently I haven't, and I don't know how to, since the is the same man, with the same personality traits, as the man who cheated. He is getting better, but I don't know if I will ever stop triggering.

If you have have suffered from infidelity, whether BS or WS, will you share how you got to the point where everything isn't affair related whenever normal marital issues come up?

(Please, if you have not experienced infidelity in your marriage, or if you are not employed as a counselor, do not post on my thread. I want the thread to be a place where I and others can learn to let our spouses feel safe not being perfect, and stop being branded with the "A" for everything they do wrong.)


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## MovingFrwrd (Dec 22, 2015)

I can appreciate the need to find this point. Especially for those that truly want to stay together.

Not to spread it around, but it is completely different for every situation. However, there is a point - if, truly, R is occurring - where grace is required to be given, and not just from the FWS. The FBS needs to step up their game and realize if the tide has indeed turned that their spouse needs grace as well.

Ideally, it will happen within the confines of marriage counseling - and instruction given on how to proceed both with grace and consequences. Each spouse needs to be held accountable for the actions during R, and grace given as needed.

I mention grace a lot for good reason, I am a religious person, and while there are those here on this board are not, the principles apply to the requisite need. 

-Has the (F)WS actions proved that they show remorse?
-Has the (F)WS continued to show grace and willingness to work through the dark times the BS has?
-Is the (F)BS working to see where the marriage failed? (Taking culpability where it's necessary? Note - this does not relieve the FWS of their decisions to enter the affair)
-Is the (F)BS finding ways to appreciate the efforts of the FWS?
-Are both spouses trying to find their way to a stronger marriage? Will they recognize where they could have been stronger / better / more forgiving?

Grace, simply, is the ability to allow a modicum of forgiveness for less than perfect actions. You don't need to show perfect forgiveness, but definitely the effort must be present and worked through.

I guess the big key is finding the point where it's not necessary to drag the FWS through the coals again to prove a point. And for the WS, it's finding the ability to empathize and show forgiveness to the BS as they work through what happened.

I have blown up on my FWS more often than I probably should have. It's only recently that she's shown me grace, as in the past 6 months. I will admit, her example has made me examine how I've been treating her. I'm able to say that since my personal DDay's she's stepped up to the mark many times. It took a while (grace?) for her to get there, but she's now committed to where we are and where we hope to be.

Strength is as strength does. 

Triggers never stop. Triggers never end. How you deal with them is the name of the game.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

IMO it depends on the magnitude of the transgression. I do not equate an EA with a no-condom, get pregnant, deceive paternity PA. So the WS on the former gets to be imperfect sooner. The WS on the latter, maybe never gets to be imperfect. At which point that WS may get fed up and leave.

BTW: I meet the minimum requirements for posting in this thread.


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

You bring up an excellent point, that even though time has passed and you can see real and substantial change, you still harbor the effects of the emotional trauma of betrayal. I think it's important to raise this for many reasons, two of which come immediately to mind: The first is how long term and corrosive betrayal truly is, and the second, is that like any injury it needs attention in order to heal. Removing the noxious cause of the injury is for sure a good thing, but in and of itself, it doesn't necessarily result in recovery.

If you're not already doing so, individual therapy to address this injury seems to be a good idea. There, you can address the actual damage done as well as the after effects and put it in its proper historical perspective..the past...and therefore not have all these triggers picking at the wound.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> IMO it depends on the magnitude of the transgression. *I do not equate an EA with a no-condom, get pregnant, deceive paternity PA.* So the WS on the former gets to be imperfect sooner. The WS on the latter, maybe never gets to be imperfect. At which point that WS may get fed up and leave.
> 
> BTW: I meet the minimum requirements for posting in this thread.


Just so you know, although my husband "only" had an EA, he and the OW were planning their wedding, and the only reason I found out about it was because he came home and asked me for a D to marry her. We had 4 children, and were married 19 years at the time. He had been living away from home for a year, while I was taking care of our children and homeschooling all 4 of them alone. It was a hardship that I was handling willingly for the sake of our family. 

He had always been against any kind of government handouts, as have been I, and he had previously told me that his own parent's D had hurt him deeply, but in his own affair fog, he threw me under the bus completely saying, "You can get on government support, and the children can go to public school. My parent's divorce didn't affect me."

He blew my life up, and it hasn't been the same since. We sold our home at a huge loss to quickly move to where he lived, since he obviously couldn't be faithful if he didn't see us more often. I've been told by my counselor that I should have stayed put, and let him figure out a way to get a job back home rather than punish myself and the children for his actions by uprooting us because of his actions.

Two years later I found that he had taken up porn, and when he was late to a family event because of it, he belittled me for being upset he was late, making up a lame excuse. When we got home I saw the computer history, discovering the porn for the first time. How ugly to belittle someone in order to hide a nasty secret. He doesn't do porn anymore, but his character flaw of belittling to hide his own transgression affected me more that the porn use did.

His ability to compartmentalize and keep secrets of all kinds is what allowed the A, the porn, the poor financial decisions, etc. In my mind it is all connected.

sigh...it doesn't take much for me to trigger, and your statement of comparison between an EA and a PA with pregnacy made me trigger. I don't know if I'll ever be able to let it go.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Unicus said:


> You bring up an excellent point, that even though time has passed and you can see real and substantial change, you still harbor the effects of the emotional trauma of betrayal. I think it's important to raise this for many reasons, two of which come immediately to mind: The first is how long term and corrosive betrayal truly is, and the second, is that like any injury it needs attention in order to heal. Removing the noxious cause of the injury is for sure a good thing, but in and of itself, it doesn't necessarily result in recovery.
> 
> If you're not already doing so, individual therapy to address this injury seems to be a good idea. There, you can address the actual damage done as well as the after effects and put it in its proper historical perspective..the past...and therefore not have all these triggers picking at the wound.





blueinbr said:


> So you are a WS, BS or a counselor?


Yes, unicus, I'd be interested to know your story as well.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I think an FWS needs to be sensitive about what they say and do and how it might trigger things into the future.

Where my husband tries to frame himself as the perfect do - gooder in specific situations -- when I know differently, is very hurtful and very triggering.

Plus some situations can help you to see new connections / interpretations of the information that you already have.

For example, I was venting with my husband about some "office politics" going on in a volunteer organization in which I have an elected office. Ok, so mi livelihood is not involved here but my reputation and my personal satisfaction in getting things done are and that's important, too.

At first my husband tried to convince me that this was no big deal, who cares about a volunteer position and so on....

I was triggered so bad as I reminded him of how he had asked me in the 4th month of dating how much money I made. So I told him, if I had been able to manage office politics better, I would have been at least a high powered, well paid executive who could be one of those women, as he claimed to me, who were used to paying for him.

Since he had just come off a trip with his special friend, we were hardly exclusive. When I refused to answer he doubledowned with
1) the ole "I'll tell you if you tell me", oh yeah, like he woud have told me the truth at the point.....and the most damaging.....

2) "I'm used to women paying for me......."

I never satisfied that question, but in that moment 6 years on, it hit me for the first time, that he was asking that question on behalf of his special friend......


How do I know this?

1. In that same conversation, he asked me how long I had been divorced. And then added, "my friends think I am crazy not asking you" ....... I saw the text exchange between him and his friend in which she told him that "he was crazy" for not even asking me how long I had been divorced.

2. She had asked him my age and then compared herself favourably to me in terms of age.

3. She compared her health favourably to mine with the remark "well, at least it's not cancer....." As if the state of one's health can at all be compared to that of someone who is 21 years older than she is .....

4. In an earlier conversation, my (future) husband did grudgingly admit that his special friend told him that he should not pay for dates with me........ at the same time that he was closing bar tabs for her and her friends and paying for her transportation ...... at the same time that she was dating other men....

5. He told me -- 2 months after she knew about me -- that she had told him without any provocation how much money she made.


So yes, all 5 of those points finally coalesced to inform me that his asking me how much money I was making was an effort of his to fulfil a request she had made of him. How much money I made would be another point of comparison in which she could say she was better than me.

So, yes, of course, I am going to trigger. And I think partners who do stupid stuff like gaslighting and trying to hide inappropriate or worse types of relationships are going to have to take the heat.

I am perfectly happy to accept my imperfect husband. He does many wonderful things for me these days.

But [email protected], do not try to frame yourself as independent, open minded, selfless, ready to help anybody, wouldn't hold a grudge against anybody type of person.

And if one does, I am ready to fight it,


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

I think there will always be triggers it's how you let them affect you.
I'm terrible at it. I find that there are some things that throw me right back to when I first found out.

Therapy helps but you are human and will always associate things. It's what our minds do to figure out things.

I think that if the FWS shows remorse and has gone through the many steps you need to go through you have to try to let it go eventually.
I forget what someone posted before (maybe @EleGirl) about how many years it takes to fully recover from an affair. 
But it's years. You will have set backs as you recover just like with any recovery and so will the FWS.

What's my point? One day at a time and try to see your spouse for who and what they are today and not for what they were yesterday. Or that's what I do.


Sent from my iPhone


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

citygirl4344 said:


> I think there will always be triggers it's how you let them affect you.
> I'm terrible at it. I find that there are some things that throw me right back to when I first found out.
> 
> *Therapy helps but you are human and will always associate things. It's what our minds do to figure out things.*
> ...


And I think it's good to ..... that means that you will react more quickly and effectively in a future similar situation........

Ironically,people who can see trouble looming ahead and know how to put a lid on it do not end up in therapy......


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I was reading on another thread about a FWS yelling at the BS about a non-affair related issue (over how he was disciplining a child), and it triggering the BS, even though the affair was years before.
> 
> I didn't want to threadjack, so I've started a thread to address the issue of WSes being allowed to not be perfect people, and make mistakes. Posters said that once the couple are in R, and the WS is repentant and no longer in the affair, they should not be expected to always be perfect, and every bad behavior should not be made out to be related to the affair.
> 
> ...


We are both, post affairs, allowed to be imperfect. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

IM mi lady, you may as well face the fact that the problems in your marriage go beyond him telling some other chick he wants to pull up stakes are ride off into the sunset together. It ain't the (hopefully dead) EA that haunts you. It the sub-conscience thoughts about what kind of man is he anyway, how his behavior towards you depreciates the "positive changes" he made and what security does your family have.
BTW, these folks squawking about "no government handouts" are full of crap. Next time you ride on a highway, get your trash picked up, or see a clean up after a disaster, think about how that compares to "no public schools" because that's a government handout.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I do not trigger from personality traits of my husband. He is much less than perfect and has not done a lot to change his own behaviors since deciding to stay together. There was a blow up last night. He was mad at life in general – the puppy pooped in her kennel and he’s having a hard time getting the pool cleared up. Which led him to treating me like less than a human being. *I* get the attitude, I get the half a$$ed kiss, I get the short answers – like he’s annoyed that I’m even around. After lots of slammed doors and stomping and getting yelled at because I “had an attitude about him asking where his sandal was” ( I did not have an attitude about asking where his sandal was, I had an attitude because I was being treated like crap) I finally told him I was leaving to go to my moms for a while. Went to bed early. I’m still stinging this morning because I just will not be treated like this anymore. 

But I don’t equate this to his 10 year EA at all. Nothing about what happened last night made me think of her or his actions with her. What it made me trigger to was to think that he’s just not willing to work on himself at all. That he expects all of the work from ME. That the life of this marriage depends on how much *I* change, how much I’m willing to put up with, whether or not I’ll just roll over and take it. Resentment is breeding from this, big time. 

If I trigger about her it’s because he’s looking at his phone when I walk in the room and then he’ll put it down. That he got an email on his work phone (that I can’t access) at 12:03AM (the puppy had woken me up to be taken outside). That he’ll leave to golf on a Saturday and take his work phone with him (he doesn’t work weekends). All of his contact with her was from his work phone. I don’t know how to fix those triggers. 

But as far as other less than perfect behavior? I don’t equate it to his EA at all.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Rubies,

I meet the minimums...

What you describe is Dirty Little Secret #2 for a couple attempting long term R from an affair.

My IC warned me about this early in R (6 months) but it didn't really register with me. It's called the BS Trump Card. Regardless of how perfect the WS "behaves" post affair, most BS (me) will judge them on all the way back to the days of the affair. This intern will remind them of the deceit, the lies, and trigger response will follow.

The WS knows all the transgressions, every lie, every conscience act of infidelity that willingly did. Therefore, they can bury it, never to be retrieved from their memory. The BS just can't do this, their mental jigsaw puzzle will always be a few pieces short of completion.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think it's important to realize that, while triggers may always be a possibility, it's also up to both spouses to stop doing things that cause triggers. The BS doesn't just have to let it go or get over it. For R to be successful on a lasting basis, the things that made the affair possible have to be eliminated. If the BS is still triggering frequently years later, there's an excellent chance that either the WS is still doing things that demonstrate their vulnerability to an affair or the couple is engaging in some behavior that's creating trigger points. So, when a trigger happens, it's best to discuss it. What caused the BS to trigger? And what can be done to eliminate that trigger going forward? 

If the WS is still working at a job that keeps them away from home overnight, that might cause the BS to trigger. A new job might be the solution.

If the BS has to drive past the house where the WS and AP had their trysts on his or her daily commute, that might cause the BS to trigger. Either a new route to work or moving to a new town might be the solution. 

The trick, though, is that triggering circumstances/behaviors should diminish over time. If they're not, then I think it's unlikely that R will be successful over the long term. No one should have to live with endless triggering events for the rest of their lives. Eliminate triggers as they arise. The aggravation of doing so is, unfortunately, one of the prices a couple pays when one of them is unfaithful.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Rowan said:


> I think it's important to realize that, while triggers may always be a possibility, it's also up to both spouses to stop doing things that cause triggers. The BS doesn't just have to let it go or get over it. For R to be successful on a lasting basis, the things that made the affair possible have to be eliminated. If the BS is still triggering frequently years later, there's an excellent chance that either the WS is still doing things that demonstrate their vulnerability to an affair or the couple is engaging in some behavior that's creating trigger points. So, when a trigger happens, it's best to discuss it. What caused the BS to trigger? And what can be done to eliminate that trigger going forward?
> 
> If the WS is still working at a job that keeps them away from home overnight, that might cause the BS to trigger. A new job might be the solution.
> 
> ...


The other thing about triggers are that they can manifest themselves in the most unexpected, and seemingly unrelated ways.

For me, the things in this thread are precisely why infidelity is an absolute deal breaker for me, with no consideration for reconciliation. I know myself well enough to know that what I would need from a partner who cheated on me would be an insurmountably big and ongoing task as to be impossible to ever succeed. Someone who has betrayed me in this way has proven to me that they are simply not worth the effort.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> sigh...it doesn't take much for me to trigger, and your statement of comparison between an EA and a PA with pregnacy made me trigger. I don't know if I'll ever be able to let it go.


Sorry to make you trigger. The point I was trying to make, very badly, was that the duration, magnitude and details of the affair factor in to the timing of your title question. Some EAs are really bad, some PAs are "only" ONS. It all depends on how the affair impacted and triggers the BS. 

Just guessing here. I am viewing this from the other side. 

One key comment I want to make is that often the WS does not have any idea they are triggering the BS. It might not be just a matter of them not caring enough to think about it. It might just be how they think and can never make the connection. 

Your H might never on his own thought about the office politics comment and never would ever have thought that triggered you. On the other hand, if he has to travel to the city where OW lives, that probably would register to him to be a problem for you. Guys think more in concrete details - locations, people, etc and not the more subtle indirects. JMHO.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> For me, the things in this thread are precisely why infidelity is an absolute deal breaker for me, with no consideration for reconciliation. I know myself well enough to know that what I would need from a partner who cheated on me would be an insurmountably big and ongoing task as to be impossible to ever succeed. Someone who has betrayed me in this way has proven to me that they are simply not worth the effort.


At one time, I thought I could reconcile with my husband after his EA. However, what I found was that he was unwilling to change his behaviors or, perhaps most vitally, the things within himself that made him affair-prone, on a long-term basis. As it turned out, he'd been serially unfaithful for the duration of our 21 years together. In retrospect, his entire personality would have required a complete overhaul. He didn't have it in him to change enough to be a safe partner. There was just too much to do, and it was too much trouble. 

However, during the nearly 3 years we were in false R before I pulled the plug, I also came to _resent_ having to change the few things about my life that had made me happy pre-affair just so I wouldn't trigger. His cheating was too close to home, it destroyed too much. Making enough changes to our life to eliminate the circumstances that made his affair possible just wasn't worth it to me. I didn't want a new house, a new hometown, a new job, new hobbies, new friends - all to avoid being triggered almost daily by reminders of what he'd done. I figured out that he was, as you say, simply not worth the effort.

Going forward, any type of infidelity at all is an immediate deal-breaker for me. I wouldn't attempt R at all. The well of tolerance for that type of upheaval, work, effort, turmoil, pain, was all used up with my ex-husband. My give-a-damn now has a very effective "off" switch.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My ex-husband cheated for the first time (that I caught him anyway) around 15 years into our marriage. I was totally shocked. I knew he was a KISA but I never thought he would cheat. I had told him when we got married that I wouldn't forgive him if he cheated and I would divorce him. He knew the story of my mother staying for me after my father cheated and being unhappy to the day she died and finally escaped. 

When DD1 happened, I told him I planned to divorce him but he begged and pleaded for another chance so I didn't. We had a son about to become a teenager and I didn't want to blow up our family. I stayed. Big mistake. 

I had warned him after DD1 that if he cheated again I was done. He swore that would never happen. Thirty years passed. I was sure I had come to terms with it. Then DD2 happened. With the same other woman. I am normally a calm, rational, even-tempered person but not then. I went berserk and that's an understatement. 

He fought the divorce but I was determined I wasn't going to be made a fool of again and I got out. He remarried the moment the final decree was in his hand (not to his AP) and we were able to become friends again. We were both very happy with our lives. He died a couple of months ago and I miss him. 

His death caused me to evaluate all these years from the moment we met at 18 until he died 50 years later. We were not compatible and didn't really meet each other's needs in most areas -- although I never saw that. He was a taker with strong narcissistic traits and I'm a very strong giver. We were an accident waiting to happen. 

During the 30 years between DD1 and DD2 I was much less tolerant of his personality traits than I was before I discovered I was married to a cheater. I had less patience than I did before. After the divorce, I realized I had been holding my breath for those 30 years. I should have divorced him when DD1 happened. 

Shortly before he died, I sent him a long email. I thanked him for the good parts of our marriage and told how much I appreciated all that he had done for us. I didn't mention the bad parts (I had said enough about that in the past). I just wanted him to know what he had meant to me. 

R is an extremely hard road -- more difficult for some than others but still a tough road for all of us who have gone through it. It doesn't always work. I spent 30 years in R and at the time thought it was successful. It wasn't. 

I miss my ex-husband tremendously but that just wasn't meant to be.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Plus some situations can help you to see new connections / interpretations of the information that you already have.


NTA, that is definitely a new development in our R. I now remember something from way before we were married, and interpret it with the new information I have about him. I get angry with _myself_ and him for my not seeing what was really going on. Mostly I am talking about times he was passive aggressive, or managed to turn a legitimate problem (something *he* was doing wrong) into *me* being the problem.


VladDracul said:


> IM mi lady, you may as well face the fact that the problems in your marriage go beyond him telling some other chick he wants to pull up stakes are ride off into the sunset together. It ain't the (hopefully dead) EA that haunts you. *It the sub-conscience thoughts about what kind of man is he anyway, how his behavior towards you depreciates the "positive changes" he made and what security does your family have.*


The EA died a long time ago. He ended it within 2 weeks of asking me for a D, and claims he would never go back to her. She has had several "boyfriends" since him, and he feels like a fool, knowing he fell for a skilled player who already had a long history of adultery, believing her to be a virtuous woman trapped in an abusive marriage. She has a reputation among those who have known her all her life. Even knowing all that, it is strange that my husband could have thought he had found his "true soul mate" and been willing to trash his wife and children for her. He says now that he was in a bad place in his head, and she said all the right things...in other words, showered him with compliments.

You are right, he demolished my sense of security. Because I was blindsided by his request for a D, I don't ever know for sure if my marriage is safe. I have asked myself and him, "Who are you, really?" He understands that is a valid question, and he is working very hard on figuring out who he really is, and proving it to me.


VladDracul said:


> BTW, these folks squawking about "no government handouts" are full of crap. Next time you ride on a highway, get your trash picked up, or see a clean up after a disaster, think about how that compares to "no public schools" because that's a government handout.


You are mixing apples and oranges. A nation needs government and our tax $ to cover some things (roads, a military, public schooling for those who aren't willing or able to educate their children, disaster cleanup, police keeping, etc.) but our family has never needed or wanted help paying our personal household bills, which is what he was suggesting for me when he said, "You can get government help." I left a good job as a Chemist to be home and educate our children 14 years prior to his EA, and we lived on his one income and with his poor professional and financial decisions, (I opined the entire marriage regarding his choices for work and financial decisions, him belittling my ideas and doing whatever he wanted.)


RWB said:


> Rubies,
> 
> I meet the minimums...
> 
> ...


Interesting way to put it. I rarely have a question about the A anymore, and when I do, he tries to remember it and answer it honestly. He has definitely forgotten a lot after 7 years, and I'm glad he is not dwelling on her or trying to remember her.

I usually bring up the A when non A marital issues come up. It is because he is the same man, with the same personality characteristics as the man who had the A. I want him to fix whatever set him up for the fall, allowed him to go along with it, allowed him to lie to me on the phone (we spoke every night during the A and he never let on, until the final day he came home and asked for a D) and allowed him to put his fantasy happiness over his vows to me, and over our children's happiness.



LosingHim said:


> If I trigger about her it’s because he’s looking at his phone when I walk in the room and then he’ll put it down. That he got an email on his work phone (that I can’t access) at 12:03AM (the puppy had woken me up to be taken outside). That he’ll leave to golf on a Saturday and take his work phone with him (he doesn’t work weekends). All of his contact with her was from his work phone. I don’t know how to fix those triggers.
> 
> But as far as other less than perfect behavior? I don’t equate it to his EA at all.


So you only bring up the A when he does something he did during the A?



Rowan said:


> I think it's important to realize that, while triggers may always be a possibility, it's also up to both spouses to stop doing things that cause triggers. The BS doesn't just have to let it go or get over it. *For R to be successful on a lasting basis, the things that made the affair possible have to be eliminated.* If the BS is still triggering frequently years later, there's an excellent chance that either *the WS is still doing things that demonstrate their vulnerability* to an affair or the couple is engaging in some behavior that's creating trigger points. So, when a trigger happens, it's best to discuss it. What caused the BS to trigger? And what can be done to eliminate that trigger going forward?
> 
> If the *WS is still working at a job that keeps them away from home overnight,* that might cause the BS to trigger. A new job might be the solution.
> 
> ...


Excellent observations. I think that is a lot of what is going on for me. He still has a job that takes him away from home for days, leaving us to have to communicate by phone. Those two factors: away from home overnight, only phone contact, are huge triggers. For years I have asked him to get a different job, but he feels trapped to keep the job because he can't find a job that pays as well. He says he's applying to different jobs, and not getting any responses. He didn't even start looking until a year *after* my counselor told him that he is on the verge of losing his family.

I've actually decided I'm not going to be unhappy for the rest of my life. If he isn't going to change what he can, I am going to change what I can to not be affected by it.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> So you only bring up the A when he does something he did during the A?


I don’t bring it up at all really. I HAVE but he thinks they shouldn’t be triggers to me because he’s no longer doing it so I shouldn’t be affected and if I am it’s “on me” and he “can’t help me with that”. 

It also doesn’t help that he doesn’t recognize it as an EA.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

It's strange how perfect creeps in like a thief in the night. They do not have to be perfect, but lets be real. The story you are using is one person HUMILIATING someone else in front of family and children. With or without an affair this is HIGHLY disrespectful. People in that thread are using "perfect" and the affair as some type of caveat. "Oh this is the first time after the affair" or "she doesn't have a pattern" the "OP triggered" blah blah blah." As a spouse there ARE a couple things you should be PERFECT at if you both agree. No cheating and disrespecting your spouse in public. Yes, you can make mistakes, you can yell and argue, but demeaning someone in front of your family is only below cheating and abuse to me.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's strange how perfect creeps in like a thief in the night. They do not have to be perfect, but lets be real. The story you are using is one person HUMILIATING someone else in front of family and children. With or without an affair this is HIGHLY disrespectful. People in that thread are using "perfect" and the affair as some type of caveat. "Oh this is the first time after the affair" or "she doesn't have a pattern" the "OP triggered" blah blah blah." As a spouse there ARE a couple things you should be PERFECT at if you both agree. No cheating and disrespecting your spouse in public. Yes, you can make mistakes, you can yell and argue, but demeaning someone in front of your family is only below cheating and abuse to me.


Yeah, the example from the other thread would be dang near a deal-breaker for me, in and of itself. Prior history of infidelity aside, public and flagrant displays of contempt by my partner aren't something I'm willing to tolerate. I don't demand perfection from my partner. I also don't think that anyone who's agreed to R has the right to demand perfection from a FWS in all instances. However, I do think it's okay to have non-negotiable deal-breakers. Just because a BS has agreed to attempt R after an affair doesn't mean they don't still have the option to leave if other of their personal boundaries, whatever those might be, are crossed.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

It was weird how it flared up. I specifically stated they were two separate incidents and he should treat it as such. I think the hint of divorce made a bunch of people trigger and project their own bias into the thread. Yes, including the ones who keyed on being perfect. No one is perfect. Yet, you aren't going to try and embarrass or humiliate me in front of my kids, family or others. Trying to say this means I want my wife to be perfect is a ridiculous leap. Some things are entirely unacceptable, not all of them pertain to infidelity.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> For me, the things in this thread are precisely why infidelity is an absolute deal breaker for me, with no consideration for reconciliation. I know myself well enough to know that *what I would need from a partner who cheated on me would be an insurmountably big and ongoing task as to be impossible to ever succeed.* Someone who has betrayed me in this way has proven to me that they are simply not worth the effort.


The bolded part is the very reason for the thread.

Can a BS ever look at a WS imperfections and see them as human being with imperfections instead of as a WS?

@EI, I've read yours and your husband's threads. Would you and your husband share how he regained his respect for you and how you regained his acceptance as a flawed human being and not a forever condemned WS?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rowan said:


> My give-a-damn now has a very effective "off" switch.


LOL


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> It's strange how perfect creeps in like a thief in the night. They do not have to be perfect, but lets be real. The story you are using is one person HUMILIATING someone else in front of family and children. With or without an affair this is HIGHLY disrespectful. People in that thread are using "perfect" and the affair as some type of caveat. "Oh this is the first time after the affair" or "she doesn't have a pattern" the "OP triggered" blah blah blah." As a spouse there ARE a couple things you should be PERFECT at if you both agree. No cheating and disrespecting your spouse in public. Yes, you can make mistakes, you can yell and argue, but demeaning someone in front of your family is only below cheating and abuse to me.


I agree with you, Rowan, that slamming a fist down on the table and yelling at a spouse in front of extended family is not about a little mistake, or not being perfect, it is about deep disrespect.

However the people who compared it to being perfect made me realize that is an issue in my marriage. My husband doesn't humiliate or disrespect me in public, yet I get upset with other things he does that are part of his makeup (and which could be changed for the better.) Then the next place I go is to the A. Is he allowed to be imperfect, and not be hit over the head with the "A stick" for just being human?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> and not be hit over the head with the "A stick" for just being human?


The "A stick" wouldn't be in play, if he would have made a million other imperfect human choices. In other words, he hit you with the "A stick" when you were just being human. It should have been left outside and away from the family. It's part of the healing process and his actions need to be addressed, by him, to help you leave the affair alone.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Openminded said:


> My ex-husband cheated for the first time (that I caught him anyway) around 15 years into our marriage. I was totally shocked. I knew he was a KISA but I never thought he would cheat. I had told him when we got married that I wouldn't forgive him if he cheated and I would divorce him. He knew the story of my mother staying for me after my father cheated and being unhappy to the day she died and finally escaped.
> 
> When DD1 happened, I told him I planned to divorce him but he begged and pleaded for another chance so I didn't. We had a son about to become a teenager and I didn't want to blow up our family. I stayed. Big mistake.
> 
> ...



I just want to say that, after reading this, I think you are one very classy lady!


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

citygirl4344 said:


> I think there will always be triggers it's how you let them affect you.
> 
> I think you are right. That is why many BSes choose not to reconcile.
> 
> ...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

EI said:


> I just want to say that, after reading this, I think you are one very classy lady!


Smiling. That's very kind of you. The truth is I'm just someone walking my path. I still wish it could have been with him to the end.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I don't demand perfection from my partner. I also don't think that anyone who's agreed to R has the right to demand perfection from a FWS in all instances. However, I do think it's okay to have non-negotiable deal-breakers. Just because a BS has agreed to attempt R after an affair doesn't mean they don't still have the option to leave if other of their personal boundaries, whatever those might be, are crossed.


Good point! Does the FWS also have the right to leave if their personal boundaries are crossed when the BS triggers?


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Many people believe a wayward must always goose step through the rest of the marriage. Yes, Inititally, they have to take some lumps and do more heavy lifting in my eyes, but there does come a point where you can't continually inflict damage and abuse on the cheater. Anyone can leave a marriage for any reason as it is their right. So, even though they cheated, the FWS doesn't have to eat a sh!t sandwich for the rest of the marriage. 

Yes, A FWS has every right to leave when their boundary is broken. Sure, it makes them a hypocrite in some cases, but it doesn't mean they are wrong.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Good point! Does the FWS also have the right to leave if their personal boundaries are crossed when the BS triggers?


Absolutely. Pain from triggers is one thing. Anger from triggers is one thing. Shutting down, becoming reclusive, treating the WS poorly in some manners is probably to be expected. 

But it’d be different if the treatment was abusive or alienating. 

I could also see the WS leaving if they aren’t seeing their BS healing and feeling like they were trying to help them by letting them get on with their life without a (former) cheater. I believe Teddie G called that being a martyr, which I’m sure it is, but at some point if you can tell you’re hurting someone more than helping them, shouldn’t you let them get on with their life?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

The relationship after an affair is forever changed. It will never be the same and everything said and done has an entirely new context, and entirely new filter. I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks to reconciliation is when one or both try to do the impossible and get lost in the idea that things are, or can ever be the same.

Again, for myself, I would not have a relationship within the context of an affair.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

When she repented and I forgave her ~ her sins were as far from the east as the west.

My promises and vows to her and God were to love, honor and cherish her. Part of that commitment means I am to hold her accountable for her behavior (in a loving and respectful way) but I don't get to berate and admonish her. I am not her judge or her parent. 

My triggers were my issue and concern. I might have shared some of them with her (I don't recall ~ it's been a long time) but I didn't do so in a "you did this to me manner" and I didn't do it often. 


If you are religious ~ then you and your husband are "one flesh" ~ when you stub your toe, you may swear out loud but you wouldn't yell or berate your own foot and leg. 

Try to focus on building your husband (your flesh) back up, and in the process find yourself rebuilt too. 


I don't give a crap about the election but I did like Hillary's slogan: "Breaking barriers instead of building walls". Kind of applies to marriage too.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Good point! Does the FWS also have the right to leave if their personal boundaries are crossed when the BS triggers?


Of course. If a BS is doing something the WS considers a deal-breaker, then they have every right to leave the relationship. Actually, that right exists for both partners for any reason, or no reason at all, as they are presumably both functional adult humans with free will. While that might seem "unfair" to the BS, I think it's important to keep things in perspective. Do you want your FWS around so you can punish them for their affair, or so that you can continue working toward a healthy marriage with them? If it's the latter, then you've got to work with them to figure out how to eliminate triggers. And abusing them isn't going to accomplish that, it's just going to make an already broken marriage even more toxic.

On the other hand, if the WS feels that being asked to make changes in order to help their BS heal from the affair is crossing their boundaries, why on earth would the BS_ want _them to stay?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Good point! Does the FWS also have the right to leave if their personal boundaries are crossed when the BS triggers?


Certainly, the FWS has the right to leave if they are doing all they absolutely can to help the BS heal and the FWS doesn't feel it's working because of something the BS is doing. I wouldn't expect triggers to be an issue for the FWS to consider leaving over but maybe if it's constant, over-the-top stuff then I guess they might -- maybe. In any event, a FWS obviously has the right not to remain in a marriage that is not what they want -- regardless of the BS giving them a second chance. I don't remember hearing of that but I'm sure it happens.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> I could also see the WS leaving if they aren’t seeing their BS healing and feeling like they were trying to help them by letting them get on with their life without a (former) cheater. I believe Teddie G called that being a martyr, which I’m sure it is, but at some point if you can tell you’re hurting someone more than helping them, shouldn’t you let them get on with their life?


This description of being a martyr sounds very dysfunctional to me. It sounds like the WS is not owning that they really want to D, but they are saying that they are only doing it so the BS can get on with their own life. Sounds like a very sneaky way of blameshifting.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> This description of being a martyr sounds very dysfunctional to me. It sounds like the WS is not owning that they really want to D, but they are saying that they are only doing it so the BS can get on with their own life. Sounds like a very sneaky way of blameshifting.


I would suppose that it would depend on a lot of details. If the FWS leaves because the betrayed isn’t healing fast enough in their eyes, I could see that as blameshifting.

But say for instance, 10 years down the road, you can see that your BS is a shell of who they used to be, still triggers often, seems over-all miserable and you can tell they didn’t leave because they weren’t strong enough to in the first place……then what? They say they want to stay together, but you can tell they’re just miserable long down the road. What do you do then?


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Quality said:


> When she repented and I forgave her ~ her sins were as far from the east as the west.
> 
> My promises and vows to her and God were to love, honor and cherish her. Part of that commitment means I am to hold her accountable for her behavior (in a loving and respectful way) but I don't get to berate and admonish her. I am not her judge or her parent.
> 
> ...


I like what you said on many levels. I have been told by my counselor that I need to recognize when he does things right, and build him up more. It is hard for me sometimes, and I'm not sure why.

When I realized that he wasn't "one" with me, while I was trying during our entire marriage to be one flesh with him, I had a major breakthrough and wanted a D. "You are not one with me" became my mantra.

Now he has realized his parents didn't model oneness to him, and he wasn't one with me. He is trying to learn what oneness looks like and to let down his guard and to be one with me. I don't trust that it is real, but just a lame attempt to keep me in the marriage.

My part is: if I am one flesh with him, then I need to build up his efforts to learn how to be one flesh with me.

Thank you Quality.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> But say for instance, 10 years down the road, you can see that your BS is a shell of who they used to be, still triggers often, seems over-all miserable and you can tell they didn’t leave because they weren’t strong enough to in the first place……then what? They say they want to stay together, but you can tell they’re just miserable long down the road. What do you do then?


Decide if you want to be with a person who is miserable, encourage them to get a better counselor and tell them that they have one more year to find peace, or you are leaving? Own it.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> The "A stick" wouldn't be in play, if he would have made a million other imperfect human choices. In other words, he hit you with the "A stick" when you were just being human. It should have been left outside and away from the family. It's part of the healing process and his actions need to be addressed, by him, to help you leave the affair alone.


Oh, you got it. I lived with his million imperfect human choices, and addressed them independently, until the A happened. After the A they all become connected to the A.

I think the key is for the WS to openly address his/her imperfections and for the BS to see they are really trying to change. That is where the BS's maturity and grace come in: to allow the WS to do their work without being bludgeoned with the A. The A stick will hopefully get smaller and smaller, until it is just an unnoticed splinter.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Many people believe a wayward must always goose step through the rest of the marriage. Yes, Inititally, they have to take some lumps and do more heavy lifting in my eyes, but there does come a point where you can't continually inflict damage and abuse on the cheater. Anyone can leave a marriage for any reason as it is their right. So, even though they cheated, the FWS doesn't have to eat a sh!t sandwich for the rest of the marriage.
> 
> Yes, A FWS has every right to leave when their boundary is broken. Sure, it makes them a hypocrite in some cases, but it doesn't mean they are wrong.


What does a wayward need to do exactly? Maybe we should list them explicitly.

For example, when I first broached directly the topic of his special friend, turned out it was the same month as her birthday. so I asked my future husband, do you plan to go to her birthday party. He invited me to dinner that night.

I have pulled my husband when he has made snarky comments. He once accused me of being "creepy" because I showed him what I had found just searching on her e-mail address. Fortunately, I did know enough to counter that remark with her behaviour that I deemed eve creepier. His retracted his criticism of me after that.

Perhaps it would help if others could add to the list. Instead of "be transparent", be more specific.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

@phillybeef&swiss, are you in a successful R? What were the main hurdles to allowing the FWS to just be a regular person with flaws, and how did you overcome them?


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

In my case, the simple answer is no. No matter what the situation, my A is thrown in my face at some juncture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> In my case, the simple answer is no. No matter what the situation, my A is thrown in my face at some juncture.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why do you think your BS does that? Do you think you have a right to be an imperfect spouse after you have done all your own homework as to your "whys" related to the affair?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> The bolded part is the very reason for the thread.
> 
> Can a BS ever look at a WS imperfections and see them as human being with imperfections instead of as a WS?
> 
> @EI, I've read yours and your husband's threads. Would you and your husband share how he regained his respect for you and how you regained his acceptance as a flawed human being and not a forever condemned WS?


B1 is at work and he doesn't have a new TAM password, as he no longer reads or posts here. But, I forwarded your question to him and he emailed his response to me. I've copied and pasted it below. He doesn't necessarily use the "TAM correct" language, so please don't be offended that he refers to my A as a "mistake," we both know that it was far more than a _mistake._ Also, please understand that our pre-A marriage was unique to only us, just as yours and everyone else's is to them. In many cases of infidelity, the pre-A marriages are seemingly happy, as far as the BS is concerned, therefore, if a reconciliation attempt is going to be made, they may feel that they have nothing to own as far as working on the problems that existed in the pre-A marriage. But, if both parties agree that the marriage was deeply troubled, with each party carrying some of the blame, yet they both wish to attempt to reconcile, then they will both need to acknowledge their contribution to the pre-A issues, (not the A, itself) and agree to work on their own side of the road. That is the approach that B1 and I chose to take, going into our reconciliation. Now, with all of these disclaimers in place, I will give you B1's response. 

B1's reply:

_"Yes, EI is flawed, but so am I. Who am I to point out her one time major fault and ignore mine? She displayed true remorse, and I knew she was truly sorry and she wished it never happened. Once I knew this, really knew it, I could begin to move past the A and move on to rebuilding our marriage and work on me, you see I had faults too, BIG ones. 

Now, this still took time, about a year actually to get through the talking, major hurt, and details. It's also around that time I made a firm decision that I would, no matter what, NEVER use it against her in an argument. When I chose to forgive her I meant it. We still had us to work on, but I forgave and never used it against her. We still had arguments too, sometimes bad ones but I never used the affair against her. It was a screw up, she knew it, I knew it, and that's all there is to it. Why keep pounding away at the same thing, we have a life to live.

I love her and want US to be whole, that is the single most important thing to me, working on us. I know exactly why she did it, I understood why she did it, and that, to me, makes a huge difference. Within all this, she's still EI, she is still a good person, a good mom, and to be honest, a good wife. 

I guess I am just able to allow our love for one another to surpass our mistakes, I want happiness with her and that was my number one goal. She made that possible too, by being sorry, helping me heal, answering questions and helping me understand why. She worked hard on us and I knew that, how could I continue to reject her, disrespect her and see her as flawed. She could very well do the same with me. I never thought I was better than her within all this, because even with her mistake, I still knew her heart and it's a good heart. No one knows just how bad I hurt her before her A, and that is something that's critical to me, and something that only the two of us will ever understand.

We simply healed together and that created a bond stronger than the original. I respect and love EI with all my heart, she is no more flawed than I am. She deserves love, respect and kindness just like I do. I can honestly say it's so easy to see beyond her choice. There is far more to her than that, and that's what I see today."
_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Why do you think your BS does that? Do you think you have a right to be an imperfect spouse after you have done all your own homework as to your "whys" related to the affair?


I think he does it because he can't ever see he is wrong about anything. Nevermind the fact that he had an RA. I've gotten to the point to where I don't even give a sh!t anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

EI said:


> B1 is at work and he doesn't have a new TAM password, as he no longer reads or posts here. But, I forwarded your question to him and he emailed his response to me. I've copied and pasted it below. He doesn't necessarily use the "TAM correct" language, so please don't be offended that he refers to my A as a "mistake," we both know that it was far more than a _mistake._ Also, please understand that our pre-A marriage was unique to only us, just as yours and everyone else's is to them. In many cases of infidelity, the pre-A marriages are seemingly happy, as far as the BS is concerned, therefore, if a reconciliation attempt is going to be made, they may feel that they have nothing to own as far as working on the problems that existed in the pre-A marriage. But, if both parties agree that the marriage was deeply troubled, with each party carrying some of the blame, yet they both wish to attempt to reconcile, then they will both need to acknowledge their contribution to the pre-A issues, (not the A, itself) and agree to work on their own side of the road. That is the approach that B1 and I chose to take, going into our reconciliation. Now, with all of these disclaimers in place, I will give you B1's response.
> 
> B1's reply:
> 
> ...


EI, you hit the jackpot with that man. His response literally brought me to tears. His love for you is incredibly obvious.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> What does a wayward need to do exactly? Maybe we should list them explicitly.
> 
> Perhaps it would help if others could add to the list. Instead of "be transparent", be more specific.


1. Be transparent about the A and answer all questions BS asks with as much detail as the BS wants.
2. Read, go to counseling, join a 12 step group, do whatever it takes for you to get to the bottom of your own "whys" that set you up to betray your spouse (foo issues, lack of integrity, PA tendencies, whatever.)
3. Be transparent with your spouse about your "whys." Do not be guarded or defensive. If you have been married for several years, your BS probably already was aware of your personal issues.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

@EI and @B1,

What a wonderful testimony of repentance, grace, forgiveness, humility and love.

I could learn a few things from you. Even though I did not cheat, I have not always been a stellar spouse, and I can improve my side of the road for the future.

Like @B1, I want a loving future for our marriage, and for our whole family. My husband is finally working on his side, not just by not having an A, but by examining himself and changing.

Thank you for responding.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> @phillybeef&swiss, are you in a successful R? What were the main hurdles to allowing the FWS to just be a regular person with flaws, and how did you overcome them?


My wife may or may not have had an EA. What I found could be argued either way. They really could have been friends, but there were enough lies and such I don't care if they were just friends. She is married and the contact was inappropriate.


Successful? I look at it as it is working. Honestly, I just stopped caring. I realized I CHOSE to stay and made sure she understood I can leave at any time. So, if I trigger it is my fault because I chose to stay. Sounds silly, but it is true. Anything they do which makes you mad, makes you rethink your position or anything else is now squarely on your shoulders. Once I accepted this, I stopped caring about snooping, checking, and any other jailer type behavior. I made the hard boundary I mentioned earlier. "Here are the things you do or did, I do not like, if they surface again you are out of my house."

If something she does falls in the EA realm we have a discussion. If it is random flaws, it is discussed like any other marriage issue, even if it is a trigger. The betrayal looms forever, you just have to realize it is your choice to let it rule you and your life.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Successful? I look at it as it is working. Honestly, I just stopped caring. I realized I CHOSE to stay and made sure she understood I can leave at any time. So, if I trigger it is my fault because I chose to stay. Sounds silly, but it is true. Anything they do which makes you mad, makes you rethink your position or anything else is now squarely on your shoulders. Once I accepted this, I stopped caring about snooping, checking, and any other jailer type behavior. I made the hard boundary I mentioned earlier. "Here are the things you do or did, I do not like, if they surface again you are out of my house."
> 
> If something she does falls in the EA realm we have a discussion. If it is random flaws, it is discussed like any other marriage issue, even if it is a trigger. The betrayal looms forever, you just have to realize it is your choice to let it rule you and your life.


Very good post. 

Years after my first betrayal 25 years ago (jeez, I have to number them now?) my wife and I had the normal "other" marriage issues. Something must have triggered her. So she complains (her words) to her BFF, [details]...why did I stay with him... [details]. To which her best friend said "You chose to stay with him". Her advice to my wife was she should not link every imperfection in me, of which there were many and still are MANY, with my ONS. My W told me this story a few days after it happened. So your advice is valid. Filter out what is affair related from what is "other". I cannot imagine if that is easy or not.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I have no problem separating affair stuff and mom affair stuff.

When he's sh*tty, I don't equate it to his EA. 

Not sure if I'm different or just compartmentalize differently. 

His porn addiction is his porn addiction. His crappy attitude is his crappy attitude. His lack of affection is his lack of affection. His ea is his ea. They don't intertwine in my brain.

The only thing that sometimes overlaps is his lack of affection. When I went through his phone a few weeks ago, I found a picture that said "when I think of you I can't help but smile". It was just a black and white picture of words, saved in his camera roll. I didn't send it to him. He didn't send it to me. So I have to think she either sent it to him or he sent it to her or he had the intent to send it to her. So occasionally when he's never saying anything sweet to me, or being affectionate, I'll think of that picture and trigger. That's really my only thing that has overlapped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Yeah I get that, but it's why I don't bother checking the phones or email anymore. Maybe he keeps it to remember you and the gift you gave him. Maybe it was a random picture, which makes him feel good. Maybe he wanted to show you and forgot. Yes and maybe it was for her, but you don't know. So, why care? All it does is stress you out and cause problems elsewhere in the marriage.


I can make an issue out of anything with or without an EA.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> I was reading on another thread about a FWS yelling at the BS about a non-affair related issue (over how he was disciplining a child), and it triggering the BS, even though the affair was years before.
> 
> I didn't want to threadjack, so I've started a thread to address the issue of WSes being allowed to not be perfect people, and make mistakes. Posters said that once the couple are in R, and the WS is repentant and no longer in the affair, they should not be expected to always be perfect, and every bad behavior should not be made out to be related to the affair.
> 
> ...


I was the BS and this one paragraph you wrote is what I knew in myself to be true. I knew I would never ever get past the affair. To me their is zero forgiveness for such a thing. So cheating is an automatic and permanent deal breaker. How others can move past it astonishes me.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

My answer to this question will probably make some people angry, that is not my intention, I'm answering this as if the couple is in reconciliation and from a BS point of view. The WS is fallible, made a bad choice, but you have found in your heart to accept the affair and give the gift of reconciliation. This does not mean you accept the affair happily, instead it means you have accepted the affair has happened but believe you can work through this. I suggest you think about this carefully, you will soon embark on a journey that is very difficult to walk. 

Now that you have accepted the affair and offered reconciliation the hard work begins. You will need to self reflect as this journey begins, what did you not bring to the marriage? You are fifty percent responsible for the marriage, the WS is fifty percent for the marriage and one hundred percent for the affair. Can you self reflect and correct your fifty percent? Can your WS do the same? Can you both wipe your slates clean of resentment? Bitterness? Anger? You will need to. 

Can you accept that your spouse is fallible? Do you know they are not perfect? Do you know they won't be perfect IMMEDIATELY after the affair? Do you know they will make mistakes in the beginning of reconciliation? Do you know your rose colored glasses have now been kicked off your face? You see I saw my wife as perfect, now I see she isn't, but I love her even though she is fallible. So affair aside, my wife in many ways is perfect for me. She was never perfect is what I learned, so she won't be perfect in reconciliation either. And guess what, this means from the day reconciliation starts the WS will not be perfect. Expecting a person, WS or BS to be perfect is foolish. 

My wife was very near perfection for two years of reconciliation, then disrespected me. My wife knows she was wrong, apologized to me and others, but do I now cancel all she has done for two years? So for two years she was an actress and purposely meant to disrespect me down the road? Is my wife to be immune from young twins behavior, life stresses, work stresses? just entertaining this thought is ridiculous, if not maybe even ignorant. 

You need to hold the WS to reasonable expectations, expectations that can be attained in reality. Some WS's learn quick and start on the correct path, others need time to grieve their affair relationship ending, others simply won't ever stop cheating. But those who stop cheating, work on themselves, invest themselves one hundred percent into correction themselves, are still good people. I Believe they always were a good person, but fallible, and now trying to be the best them they can be. For whatever reason they became broken, they became weakened, but it's my hope that people help them stand, help them to become better, for we don't know the greatness they may contribute to our lives. 

I look at @EI and B1 and have so much respect for the love they share. That they contribute to TAM helping others they have never met, but B1and EI stood supporting each other, and look at what they accomplished. If they didn't support each other where would they be now? Would they be happy? Would they be together? They are together because they both changed, they both know each are fallible, and that are accepting of that. Their story is one that worked, and many don't, but I continue forward with a wife that is fallible. A wife I love with all my heart, and she feels the same about me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Anyone who is married and doesn't understand their spouse is fallible should've have never been married in the first place. I agree with everything in your post, minus the subjectivity.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

drifting on said:


> Expecting a person, WS or BS to be perfect is foolish.
> 
> 
> You need to hold the WS to reasonable expectations, expectations that can be attained in reality. Some WS's learn quick and start on the correct path, others need time to grieve their affair relationship ending, others simply won't ever stop cheating. But those who stop cheating, work on themselves, invest themselves one hundred percent into correction themselves, are still good people. I Believe they always were a good person, but fallible, and now trying to be the best them they can be. For whatever reason they became broken, they became weakened, but it's my hope that people help them stand, help them to become better, for we don't know the greatness they may contribute to our lives.
> ...


Excellent observations, DO. Thank you.


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## kc2 (Feb 13, 2015)

Thank you for starting this thread, IM, and for those who posted. This has helped me so much. Actually, it helped me see some of the very things that I have been wrestling with myself.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My hubby had to insist on being fallible again. I don't remember exactly when it was, but I do remember suddenly thinking that I needed to cut him some slack, as if he'd thrown cold water on me. It really was that sudden. I spent months if not years insisting he do this and that, and when he'd done it all and then some and I was being a b!tch he let me know, and I relented  It was something mundane, like maybe he'd forgotten to take the garbage out or something, I don't remember exactly what. I probably made my mad face, and he FINALLY stood up for himself and got mad back. Till then he wasn't allowed to be mad back.

He really is a remarkable FWS. The longer we're together the more I realize that.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

OP, 

In response to your thread title :

"When is FWS allowed to be an imperfect person again ?"

Well that's just the problem with R, isn't it ? Its always out there. Sometimes buried deep, sometimes on the surface and raw, but its there.

Infidelity is SUCH a mental and emotional betrayal that it is almost impossible to ever truly forgive 100%, let alone forget, no matter how many years have gone by.

Its why I have never been a big proponent of R, especially when the cheating went physical. Because in the end, like your thread title asks :

"When is FWS allowed to be an imperfect person again ?"


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I guess I'm allowed to be imperfect again.

I woke up at 2:30 in the morning today and could not find my kids. Terrifying, right? 

I went to the living room and found my husband, whom I asked where the kids were. He pointed to the couch where my 9 year old was. She had fallen asleep on the couch with my husband.

I was still missing the 12 year old, the 15 year old and the 15 year old friend that was over. 

In a panic I'm running around my house looking. I finally notice the back floodlight on. My 15 year old, her friend and the 12 year old had decided they were going to swim in the pool. I was LIVID! 

Adrenaline running from not being able to find them, anger from when I did find them, I was half asleep.....I yelled at the kids. (I WANTED to spank all of them!!!) I hear my husband give a very heavy sigh and he told me to........calm down.

Dear god, you do not tell an angry woman to calm down!!!

So, in my anger and frustration, I said to him (rather a yell) "this is unacceptable!! How can you not see that?!"

He said very calmly "you need to calm your sh*t down when you talk to me"

I apologized to him this morning.

Everything is fine. He was not happy that I snapped at him, but he did not bring up my ONS. We actually talked it out this morning and he understood that I was VERY on edge and didn't mean to take it out on him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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