# Help or Advice



## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Hey there

I came across this forum a little while ago and after a lot of lurking I decided posting can't really harm the situation. I have been married for nearly 10 years with a 6 year old son and an 8 year old daughter.

Once again my marriage is in tatters. Bizarrely I had an affair which ended two years ago. It started after the humiliation of ongoing chatting, sexting and so on just got too much. We had some severe issues in 2005/2006. I was pregnant with my son at the time and there was a "friend" who seemed to swoop into our lives. Along with this was another involving sexting and I think he sent her flowers etc. He treated me shockingly! I was all set to leave and he seemed to come to his senses. We went to MC and then we had some very happy years. 

Fast Foward to 2009 again sexting and before I could deal with it I find out he is "friendly" with a relatives wife that I don't get on with and that he had been to her house. I find out because her husband comes to my house with a knife!! I did the noble thing and convinced the husband that I knew all about it and that they are just friends and he was only supporting her through their issues. The next week I ended up just chatting to a friends brother on Facebook and away it went. Before I know it its a full blown affair and I said that I wanted a divorce. he asked me not too and I agreed but did not stop the affair. Eventually my husband got suspicious and I confessed part of it. Finally I confessed all of it about 6 weeks later. It was a very very difficult time and i didn't think we could make it but my husband seemed to be a changed man. He seemed to accept what I had done and what he had done and made great efforts. Then off we go again two years later with chatting and lying and deceipt. We kept arguing constantly and I said I think its time we reconsider this relationship. I then felt we could still fix it if we both tried. 

Now he seems to have done a 180! He started an argument which really escalated and now he says he feels we should divorce. He is treating me exactly as he did in 2005/2006. He says that he can't forgive me for my affair and that is all he thinks about. While I do think that divorce maybe the right thing I don't think a single escalated argument should be the reason. I accept that the arguing may have caused him to also reconsider the relationship but I don't understand the sexual issues cropping up now ie saying that he thinks about my affair when everything has been normal in that department for two years. 

I know its a long and complex story. How do I get him to see the damage his actions have caused? How do I get those thoughts out of his head? How do I save this? 

I have in the last few weeks been as understanding as possible even though he is being incredibly distant. He doesn't want me to even hug him. I am actively not arguing. I don't want this to happen... Not like this.

Thanks in advance...


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

wow, way too much infidelity on both sides for this marriage to continue, imo

while you had one revenge affair your husband seems to be a serial cheater and will not change

time to file, sorry


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## B1 (Jun 14, 2012)

Sounds like you all have done some MAJOR rug sweeping. Never really addressing all these affairs. WOW, what a mess. I don't even really know what to say except I would recommend some serious counseling for both of you. You both need MC(marriage counseling) and IC(individual counseling). You have what I would call a train wreck of a marriage to deal with.

Could it be saved, sure, is it likely, wow, I don't know.

I came from a train wreck of a marriage and I am 4 months into R so it's possible, But we are not dealing with multiple affairs by both partners.

Hopefully others will post more helpful info.

good luck...and sorry you are in this mess.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I would love to give you hope that your marriage could be saved, but I highly doubt it. He has had multi affairs and it sounds like you have had at least one. The sad truth is that men rarely can get past the wife having an affair. It does not sound as though either of you are very happy in your marriage anyways. The only thing I could recommend is MC and IC for you both. Maybe even a seperation without involving other people.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I am sorry you are in so much pain. Your husband's current asctions suggest he is in the middle of another affair. I don't know if your relationship is salvagable. .. so much infidelity and disrespect. I think the 180 might be a good first step and find out who he is fooling around with now.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

I can't imagine how such a marriage that has been so severely raped of love and respect can survive though I am sure stranger things have happened.

You seem more concerned about the recent turn of events rather than the worry of getting a divorce and I get that. After reading your post twice, I get the impression that the recent turn of events is yet another affair of his. This one may be one he wants to nourish and needs to dump you to accomplish it.

My heart bleeds for your babies. I hope you two can be better parents than you were spouses.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> Before I know it its a full blown affair


No, it isn't. You knew every step you were going to take and took it on purpose. take responsibility for your actions. How long did your affair go ?


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Hello. Thanks for the replies so far. I have had 1 actual full on affair that was as bad as you can imagine... in fact it was probably worse. I was angry and humiliated and behaved appallingly. 

My husband seems to be blind to the damage that chatting and so on does. I understand that I hurt him terribly. Perhaps I wanted revenge and perhaps I wanted to fell better about myself. Either way I got way more than I bargained for.

The thing is when all is said and done and I was ready to walk away he really fought hard for me. The most recent saga involves chatting to a few people 2 of which have been a thorn in my side before. This made the situation worse. So then I was speaking ( not chatting ) to his friends husband (just a friend who he speaks to a lot). It turned out that the guy was not happy with his wife speaking to my husband. I told him I didn't have a particular issue. My husband then decided he didn't want me to speak to the friends husband and I felt that this was because the friend kept lying to her husband. I felt this was completely inappropriate as its affecting another relationship. So basically that escalated and escalated until we had a massive fight. I said he was acting odd. He said he told me not to speak to this guy and I would not. I said if you wanted me to stop for us I would gladly do it but you want me to stop so that the lies and deception could go on unchecked. This resulted in him laughing at me and me getting really mad. Then he said he was not interested anymore. And then it seemed to be his opinion that we should divorce. 

I had a moment of clarity where I felt that maybe we should divorce - however I was not going to take that decision and throw away ten years and upset my beloved children based on an escalated argument. I feel that old wounds were opened for both of us and that we already climbed out of the crap of the past and this was not a reason to get divorced. He now is acting like the affair I had is new. He is reacting like he just found out. He says that when we are intimate now that's all he can imagine. My heart goes out to him because the perceived injustices combined with the real ones are creating an even bigger mess in his head. I really am trying. I am not arguing no matter what he says. I respond and then even if I want to explode - I don't. 

So what now? Can I help him clear his head first? If so how? How do I make him see that even if divorce has to happen it should not happen under these circumstances.

Lots of questions...


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> No, it isn't. You knew every step you were going to take and took it on purpose. take responsibility for your actions. How long did your affair go ?


I totally and completely accept that it was my fault. Circumstances do not mean I am in anyway excused. I was having a relationship although it was non sexual. I kept it that way and on one occasion the relationship became sexual without my consent. I don't want to call it rape because I nurtured the affair and I invited him to my home and then after that occasion I willingly continued a sexual relationship. Madness I know. Do you mean from the moment we first chatted to NC or how long was it a relationship?


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Falene said:


> I can't imagine how such a marriage that has been so severely raped of love and respect can survive though I am sure stranger things have happened.
> 
> You seem more concerned about the recent turn of events rather than the worry of getting a divorce and I get that. After reading your post twice, I get the impression that the recent turn of events is yet another affair of his. This one may be one he wants to nourish and needs to dump you to accomplish it.
> 
> My heart bleeds for your babies. I hope you two can be better parents than you were spouses.


I hope my longer second portion answers some of your comments. I cannot fathom how the turn of events created the need for a divorce! 

My heart bleeds for them! They will never understand this - I don't so how can I convince them?


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## Kallan Pavithran (Jan 17, 2012)

heaven1 said:


> I totally and completely accept that it was my fault. Circumstances do not mean I am in anyway excused. I was having a relationship although it was non sexual. I kept it that way and on one occasion the relationship became sexual without my consent. I don't want to call it rape because I nurtured the affair and *I invited him to my home* and then after that occasion I willingly continued a sexual relationship. Madness I know. Do you mean from the moment we first chatted to NC or how long was it a relationship?




You did it at your home and I think continued it in your home and marital bed, This is a huge betrayal a man can get past, he may not have forgiven you and couldn't do that in years. He may have wanted to leave you at that time but may be scared of losing his family and being alone held him back. As both of you rug swept it neatly both couldn't face it head on and deal it properly with professional help. Now he may be having an A, If so its an exit A which he may have been waiting for, gathering his courage to leave you.

This is very common thing happening when A is rug swept without dealing properly. It creates and accumulate resentment in BS which will explode one day. The same happened here. He couldn't forgive or forget what you did. He may have been living with it for a long, mind movies and pain of your betrayal.

Both of you screwed your marriage royally. It will be better for both of you to get a D.

I dont feel anything for you or your husband but for the innocent children about whom you forget. when you were banging someone at your home you were breaking their home, their happiness and their right to have a happy home.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

I see what you are saying and, yes, there are lots of questions.

I think it is good you still carry the weight of your affair and that you know in your heart that it was wrong. I do not think it ever hurts to own up to our wrongs and to express regret over them. 

I think one of the worst things we can do is to discount our wrongs because of their wrongs. No one gets anywhere doing that and we can never blame our poor actions on someone else's poor actions. I would help him clear his head about your actions as much as you can.

It seems, somewhat like me, your relationship is mucked up with wrongs on both sides. Divorce or no divorce, you two need to salvage a relationship that is positive because you two are never going to get rid of the other...you have children. One of you has to disengage, take a higher road, have a broader vision.

Be sincere. A good listener. Be honest and compassionate. Try to move forward in whatever direction is best. I can't see any other options.


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Kallan Pavithran said:


> You did it at your home and I think continued it in your home and marital bed, This is a huge betrayal a man can get past, he may not have forgiven you and couldn't do that in years. He may have wanted to leave you at that time but may be scared of losing his family and being alone held him back. As both of you rug swept it neatly both couldn't face it head on and deal it properly with professional help. Now he may be having an A, If so its an exit A which he may have been waiting for, gathering his courage to leave you.
> 
> This is very common thing happening when A is rug swept without dealing properly. It creates and accumulate resentment in BS which will explode one day. The same happened here. He couldn't forgive or forget what you did. He may have been living with it for a long, mind movies and pain of your betrayal.
> 
> ...


Perhaps that is the case but do not for one second doubt my love for my children. Had it not been for me having an affair I would have left as the humiliation for me had reached braking point. That said I still should not have done it!


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

heaven1 said:


> I hope my longer second portion answers some of your comments. I cannot fathom how the turn of events created the need for a divorce!
> 
> My heart bleeds for them! They will never understand this - I don't so how can I convince them?


I wish I could take you out for a Starbucks (pumpkin spice is back)!

The answers are within him. You two need to talk with love and compassion in your hearts. Maybe get a babysitter for a few hours so you can have some time to yourselves to get an understanding of what is going on with him.

I know I don't have to remind you how hard it can be for men to share their feelings especially in such a complex situation. Patience I think will be key and be careful not to unintentionally shut him down.


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Falene said:


> I see what you are saying and, yes, there are lots of questions.
> 
> I think it is good you still carry the weight of your affair and that you know in your heart that it was wrong. I do not think it ever hurts to own up to our wrongs and to express regret over them.
> 
> ...


Thank you Falene. That is good advice. Any ideas on how I can help him clear his head? The one thing I don't agree with is that until he actually leaves, I am not prepared to give up. I will try to do whatever I can. Be with him, support him and try not to react to anything he says that upsets me. I feel that once I can break through and get him to see everything in perspective we have a chance.

I have made so many mistakes! Not only in the affair but things I have said in anger and frustration as well. Last week in a moment I suddenly remembered all the good in him and all that I loved and cared for and the father that my children adore... and I am not prepared to just pack it in based on that fight. If there is more to know then I want to know it and then see how to move forward. 

If its his hurt and anger reopened then I want to help him deal with it and again move forward.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

no offense Falene but when WS's are knee deep in such behaviors like EA's, the dopamine runs high and they become addicted to their AP and the affair. As a result he will gaslight, lie, blameshift and do what ever it takes to keep his affair going.


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> no offense Falene but when WS's are knee deep in such behaviors like EA's, the dopamine runs high and they become addicted to their AP and the affair. As a result he will gaslight, lie, blameshift and do what ever it takes to keep his affair going.


No offense taken! I can't tell you how much I value your perspectives/opinions. You are one of the wise ones! lol

As I mentioned, I think he could be having another affair (EA maybe?) and using Heaven's affair to justify what he is doing. You think the same?


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

heaven1 said:


> Hello. Thanks for the replies so far. I have had 1 actual full on affair that was as bad as you can imagine... in fact it was probably worse. I was angry and humiliated and behaved appallingly.


A revenge affair is a totally normal response to being cheated on with such humilating behaviors. 

Still, it often sadly leads to another revenge affair by the now cheating but also betrayed marriage partner. 

I am sorry you are here.


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Falene said:


> No offense taken! I can't tell you how much I value your perspectives/opinions. You are one of the wise ones! lol
> 
> As I mentioned, I think he could be having another affair (EA maybe?) and using Heaven's affair to justify what he is doing. You think the same?


Both of your comments have given me some additional thoughts. Perhaps the EA's and this friendship are part of an addiction and when confronted he is lashing out and the wounds have been reopened. That said I am sure all his avid fans have helped him see just what an awful person I am which I think explains the sudden recurrence of being the victim. The question I now face is how do I help him and myself?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

heaven1 said:


> Both of your comments have given me some additional thoughts. Perhaps the EA's and this friendship are part of an addiction and when confronted he is lashing out and the wounds have been reopened. That said I am sure all his avid fans have helped him see just what an awful person I am which I think explains the sudden recurrence of being the victim. The question I now face is how do I help him and myself?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


One woman here found a sex addictions counselor and that seemed to help her. 

I think that may be a good choice for you too. 

Affairs are an addiction, and most sex addiction counselors know that. Hence even though your spouse may not be truly sex addicted, a sex addiction counselor has likely dealt with many affair situations. 

Good luck and hugs


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

you present consequence

it's her or me time

No contact letter
complete transparency
owning up to the affairs 100% (you too if it hasnt been done)
spend 10-15 hours a week of alone time, no kids no TV

if he doesnt comply you file


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Falene said:


> No offense taken! I can't tell you how much I value your perspectives/opinions. You are one of the wise ones! lol
> 
> As I mentioned, I think he could be having another affair (EA maybe?) and using Heaven's affair to justify what he is doing. You think the same?



people in affairs use all sorts of reasons to justify their affair, they will exaggerate problems, or even rewrite the history and vilify their spouse

whether or not it stems from her last affair doesn't matter to a degree, he has chosen to cross the boundary once again and has no moral ground to do it

not that I think this situation is very salvageable but it were to be, then all of the affairs need to be faced head on if he stops this current one and no more rug sweeping. This isn't a tally of who has wronged the other one more.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

btw- is OW married?

if so, you expose to her husband


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> you present consequence
> 
> it's her or me time
> 
> ...


Good advice but do you think that he is in the frame of mind to accept it? I personally feel that he does not want a divorce but is in a web of "the addiction" and hurt. I want to try to understand. I am not a weak woman who will stay no matter what but during the peak my affair I remember the feeling of not caring and actually wanting a divorce so much so that the consequences wouldn't have bothered me at all. Now looking back it would have been a hideous mistake.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

heaven1 said:


> Good advice but do you think that he is in the frame of mind to accept it? I personally feel that he does not want a divorce but is in a web of "the addiction" and hurt. I want to try to understand. I am not a weak woman who will stay no matter what but during the peak my affair I remember the feeling of not caring and actually wanting a divorce so much so that the consequences wouldn't have bothered me at all. Now looking back it would have been a hideous mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if your husband had presented strong consequences like exposure, filing and such you likely would have been drawn out the fog and either tried to fix the marriage or ended it. Will he simply accept a divorce? well that's a strong possibility for sure. But you can't get anywhere in this marriage while he is in the affair, you need to destroy the affair in order to proceed. By showing him what life will be like outside of his fantasy bubble is the only real shot you have, imo


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> btw- is OW married?
> 
> if so, you expose to her husband


Yes she is married. I have been speaking to the husband and that's what started the fight that led him to feel he wants a divorce. I stopped speaking to the husband last week due to trying to salvage this and thinking another fight is not needed. That said I know she lied to her husband saying they no longer speak. He wanted me to contact him if I found out otherwise but I haven't done because again it will come full circle and the fighting will restart. My issue is I don't know which bit to start on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

heaven1 said:


> I am not a weak woman who will stay no matter what but during the peak my affair I remember the feeling of not caring and actually wanting a divorce so much so that the consequences wouldn't have bothered me at all. Now looking back it would have been a hideous mistake.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why would it have been a hideous mistake? It retrospect, IMHO, it sounds like, based on his present behavior it may have been a good choice.

Perhaps it would have helped you find a more compatible spouse.


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> Why would it have been a hideous mistake? It retrospect, IMHO, it sounds like, based on his present behavior it may have been a good choice.
> 
> Perhaps it would have helped you find a more compatible spouse.


It would have been hideous based on the reasons I wanted to do it... Possibly the same as he does now. The point where you cannot see the consequences and you are doing it for the wrong reasons ie. another person and that they help you to only see your spouses flaws.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

heaven1 said:


> Yes she is married. I have been speaking to the husband and that's what started the fight that led him to feel he wants a divorce. I stopped speaking to the husband last week due to trying to salvage this and thinking another fight is not needed. That said I know she lied to her husband saying they no longer speak. He wanted me to contact him if I found out otherwise but I haven't done because again it will come full circle and the fighting will restart. My issue is I don't know which bit to start on!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


call him and let him that it is still ongoing- she may have to scramble to save her own skin and even throw your husband under the bus, helping to destroy their fantasy world

is the communication all on his phone and thru text? it is possible to retrieve some of it in some instances


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

for all you know, it could have gone PA


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> call him and let him that it is still ongoing- she may have to scramble to save her own skin and even throw your husband under the bus, helping to destroy their fantasy world
> 
> is the communication all on his phone and thru text? it is possible to retrieve some of it in some instances


Well it's whatsapp. Her husband was able to get some emails etc and prior to that they were both just lying through their teeth. I didn't even understand why they were lying. Eg they were friends and I knew it and was okay with it. When I had an affair he told her. I asked if he told her and he said no. He kept saying know even when I said that I understood that they had been friends for a long time. Then recently her husband hacked her Facebook and told me!!! Then I asked my husband who still denied it and when presented with proof he recanted and said he only told her "a bit" Her husband simply asked whether she spoke to my husband about their marital issues. She said know. Finally he got her emails and she had even made up stuff as did my husband and they both said to each other that they would not stop speaking. I now know for a fact that my husband knows about the emails he accessed meaning they spoke after she again said they would not speak/ whatsapp/ email/chat which is a lie.

So that said I have seen some emails but have not pursued. My husband deletes everything and locks his phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> for all you know, it could have gone PA


No as she lives 10000 miles away 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

sorry getting his EA's mixed up


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

put a keylogger on the computer right away


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## Falene (Dec 31, 2011)

Heaven,

You must tell the OW's husband. It is the right thing to do.


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> put a keylogger on the computer right away


So am I  there are other people like the person he swore he would not speak to again 7 years ago! And the cousins wife he still has a crush!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> put a keylogger on the computer right away


Key logger won't work as he has the iPhone 5 and uses it for everything and has it locked, upside down and carries it everywhere... That was one of the signs that gave it away!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

Falene said:


> Heaven,
> 
> You must tell the OW's husband. It is the right thing to do.


I may do just that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

https://whatsapp.zendesk.com/entries/20888066-how-do-i-recover-deleted-messages-on-my-iphone


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

heaven1 said:


> Yes she is married. I have been speaking to the husband and that's what started the fight that led him to feel he wants a divorce. I stopped speaking to the husband last week due to trying to salvage this and thinking another fight is not needed. That said I know she lied to her husband saying they no longer speak. He wanted me to contact him if I found out otherwise but I haven't done because again it will come full circle and the fighting will restart. My issue is I don't know which bit to start on!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Call her H and tell him. If you have to keep up these lies to sustain the marriage, you are better off without it


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

The relationship is definitely shady. Most likely a deep EA and them planning to leave each other spouses. Contact the OW H and tell him to collect some evidence if he can before confrontation. Was it this guy that showed up at your house ?


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## heaven1 (Sep 27, 2012)

We managed to speak a little last night. It was rough! I tried not to get sucked in and kept detaching from arguing about what I did/said etc. I said I am sorry for everything I did and said with no buts. What I am struggling with is the way he acts regarding intimacy. Last night I suggested it and he said that he did not want to as he felt angry afterwards. I said okay and got ready for bed. Later during the night we were intimate and the aftermath was not pleasant. He went to the bathroom for ages and started to wash himself and brush his teeth and spit. I am struggling with this as anything I had done was over 2 years ago and this is not one of the issues we had previously (until 3 months ago) Even then frequency was reduced but this seems to be getting worse. He then started reading stuff on his phone and went downstairs for a few hours unable to sleep. How in the world am I supposed to help him past this? I didn't react in anger or upset. I just said that perhaps when he is upset or can't sleep he should talk to me and not watch tv or his phone. He didn't respond.

We discussed the friend. He says that he feels that there was no problem until I started speaking to her husband. I felt that was more than little unfair! The husband had an issue with it but had no one to tell!!! I didn't engage in argument. He said he didn't interfere with my friends and that he felt that I should have stopped speaking to the husband at his request considering what I had done. I sort of feel that these recent interactions and resulting arguments have brought out feelings from the past. 

Is this one of those times where I just have to be patient? Is there anything I can do?


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