# At a loss with the man gender!



## Tomara

I am a single women with a confident personality. I don't understand why men think you are pissy because you speak your thoughts. When I do so, it's not in a confrontation, it's simply my thoughts.

Yes there are things in my life that have made me strong..... Like raising two kids 24/ 7. Keeping a house over their heads and teaching them to be strong confident adults.

I am at a loss because men I date see me as stuck up, outspoken and a not very nice person. 

I have been abused in my primary relationship and it took 15 + years to have my voice. Why am I so wrong? What can I work on to have men understand. If it means buckling under..... That's not a choice. 

I would very much appreciate some constructive direction. I have been on this site for some time and I have seen some awesome strong women here!


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## WorkingOnMe

I think a good first step is to try to see things from their perspective. Sounds like you don't really do that.


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## EleGirl

It might be that you are picking the wrong kind of men. 

Can you share with us some examples of things that men have found off-putting and what they said about them?


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## staarz21

What has happened where the men are just like "Yeah, you're stuck up, I'm out."

I think there is voicing your opinion and then there is being rude. Fine line, that some people just don't see sometimes. It's ok to feel strongly about things, but the way you go about presenting them or saying them could determine whether or not someone would want to continue conversation with you. 

Also, it's important to choose men who are interested in the same things you are. This way, you have a base of conversation that may not clash too much.


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## Anon Pink

If a man is such a wuss that a woman speaking an opinion turns them off, do you really want that kind of man?

In conversation, seek first to understand, second to be understood. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but there is a time and way in which is should be shared and other times and ways in which it should not.


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## FrenchFry

> I am at a loss because men I date see me as stuck up, outspoken and a not very nice person.


:rofl: Me too! Then I met my husband and all the things I thought were bad about me became validated as awesome.

Without knowing you and knowing why the men you date are saying these things, I do know the common denominator of all your failed relationships and it's probably a folly to blame a whole gender on them.

What kind of man are you seeking out in general?


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## ConanHub

Probably the type of men? Can you give an example of what happened?

A lot of guys are intimidated by strong women. Or are only turned on by a passive female. You may just need to find the right man.

Strong confident women give me a rise but I have real thick skin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## southbound

What is your personality like when you are voicing these opinions, and what are the issues? Surely a guy isn't turned off because you might voice a strong opinion for Papa John's over Domino's Pizza.


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## Openminded

I am a very strong person. I don't sugar-coat anything for anyone but I generally do it with a light touch. And a smile goes a long way. I've never had a problem with men being put off by who I am so I'm wondering what these men are like that you are meeting.


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## Shoto1984

Maybe we should start by defining "strong" Is strong being able to accomplish the things you have? Or is strong beating someone over the head with your opinions based on your accomplishments? As alluded to above, strong and confident are great but so are tact, poise and grace. My date test is easy. "am I having fun and do I want to see this person again?" All the back story doesn't matter a bit if I can't answer yes to those questions.


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## MachoMcCoy

You probably need to dial it down a few notches. I'm a strong confident man, but I don't beat my friends over the head with it.


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## Tomara

Thanks for the comments, they do help. I think it is probably the men I am choosing. I really don't beat someone up with my opinion but maybe I do with my bluntness. I do wish to change but still not lose who I am. I do prefer a man that is confident and squared away in their life..... I think my pick is broken. Are there any good books that might enlighten an old girl? Or maybe I should invest in duct tape.


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## ocotillo

Tomara said:


> When I do so, it's not in a confrontation, it's simply my thoughts.


That sounds like normal dinnertime conversation in my home. Maybe you are seeing men who are not a good match for you mentally?

If you have strong opinions, it's important to be gracious and state them in a way where stupidity is not the unavoidable corollary to disagreeing with you. But I'm sure you realize that.


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## jld

I think you should be yourself and wait for the right man to come along.

I am blunt, too, and absolutely transparent with my husband. I have been since the beginning, over 21 years ago. He says it makes living with me very easy. He never has to guess what I am thinking or feeling.

Over time you may become less blunt, but maybe not. Better to establish a relationship based on your authentic self than trying to be something someone else thinks you should be. 

Most of us revert to our normal default behavior anyway, at some point.


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## samyeagar

One of the things I have noticed in many women who describe themselves as strong and confident is a certain rigidness. No real willingness to compromise, to be flexible, to work together. Things have to be their way. They feel that if they were to give an inch in anything, that it makes them weak, turns them into a doormat. The fine line alluded to above by shoto is the difference between being attracted to, or being repulsed by someone, and that goes for both genders.

Personally, I have found that women who present themselves up front, the ones who have to verbally say they are strong and confident right out of the gate are typically the ones who have no idea where that line is.


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## Shoto1984

Tomara said:


> Or maybe I should invest in duct tape.


:lol:

No no but maybe a filter (no cost)


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## SimplyAmorous

I can be outspoken...not one to not speak my opinions on an issue... and men never seem to mind.. (women more so if I must be honest)...but I know when to be humble too, just listen...(maybe not so much here, I'm better in real life).... if you are coming at them with a "I am Mrs Independent...I don't really need you...I did this all myself...look at me"... they might be thinking...you are just not the type they are interested in.

My Husband welcomes my speaking my mind.. but I have a very INTERdependent attitude about US.. I also want to HEAR HIS SIDE IN EVERYTHING, what's his "take".....I invite him to challenge my thinking even...makes for some great back & forths, and we learn & grow together.

If what you are speaking is not also *seeking to know HOW HE FEELS too*... it is falling short.. this is what I suspect ... but just a guess of course..

And there surely is something to say for Compatibility also!


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## Jellybeans

Tomara said:


> I am at a loss because men I date see me as stuck up, outspoken and a not very nice person.


Then start dating different men.


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## MaritimeGuy

I think the tone of your message is important. As Ocotillo points out if your tone implies anything other than your opinion implies stupidity you won't win a lot of hearts. 

I know I personally much prefer a strong woman. If when I ask her what she wants I get a wishy washy, 'Whatever you would like...' kind of answer I find that exasperating. A woman with thought out opinions on different matters if far more interesting than a woman with no opinions. However, a woman who is always right and not inclined to consider other viewpoints is a real turn off. 

If you can cross off an abrasive tone to your conversations than I would agree it's probably that you're picking the wrong guys.


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## always_alone

IME, a lot of men are intimidated by strong, confident women, and want/need/prefer to be dominant, the leader, the smarter, the more competent, while she is submissive, deferring, admiring, nurturing.

And while some will say that this is only when said strong,confident women are unyielding, controlling, rigid, I've seen many a man make it quite clear that he wants nothing to do with a strong woman before he's had any chance whatsoever to see her personality.

For example, when I was younger and dating, I could meet a man, engage in light chitchat, but soon as he found out what I did for a living, would take a step back, his eyes would get wide, and he'd say something like "oh, I better not argue with you then", make excuses,and run off to chat up someone else. This happened to me all the time, but never when I lied and said I was a stewardess.

I will likely get blasted for this, but there is still widespread sentiment that a woman with an opinion is automatically a *****, unless she is sure to couch that opinion in lots of "I thinks", "I'm not sure,buts", "maybes", "possiblys" and so on.

For me, the only solution was to find someone who actually appreciated my qualities.

My strong confident friends report similar experiences.


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## Tomara

Jelly Bean

I have dated different mean from all walks of life. If the solution was that simple I wouldn't be asking for assistance.


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## soccermom2three

There is nothing wrong with a strong, confident woman but it's all how you come across to the other person. Since we don't know you personally is there anyone that you trust to tell you the truth that you can ask?

ETA: Your question doesn't even have to pertain only to dating. Do you have trouble making or maintaining friends?


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## Tomara

Sorry I meant men. Example on my dating profile... Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner. If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist. I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally my time in life. Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV. Lol I don't see what's wrong in stating what you are looking for. 

I do see that I may need to temper my voice and a facial looks. People have told me my whole life that they can see how I feel because my face shows it. Ok now down to duct tape and a ski mask lol


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## jld

Hiding who you are is not a long term success strategy.


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## FrenchFry

Tomara said:


> Sorry I meant men. Example on my dating profile... Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner. If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist. I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally my time in life. Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV. Lol I don't see what's wrong in stating what you are looking for.
> 
> I do see that I may need to temper my voice and a facial looks. People have told me my whole life that they can see how I feel because my face shows it. Ok now down to duct tape and a ski mask lol


Okay! Well here is one thing-- your dating profile sounds a little defensive like you've been burned a few times by these issues. You can absolutely have those filters but I would leave it off the profile and save it for the information gathering stages of dating.


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## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> IME, a lot of men are intimidated by strong, confident women, and want/need/prefer to be dominant, the leader, the smarter, the more competent, while she is submissive, deferring, admiring, nurturing.
> 
> And while some will say that this is only when said strong,confident women are unyielding, controlling, rigid, *I've seen many a man make it quite clear that he wants nothing to do with a strong woman before he's had any chance whatsoever to see her personality.*
> 
> For example, when I was younger and dating, I could meet a man, engage in light chitchat, but soon as he found out what I did for a living, would take a step back, his eyes would get wide, and he'd say something like "oh, I better not argue with you then", make excuses,and run off to chat up someone else. This happened to me all the time, but never when I lied and said I was a stewardess.
> 
> I will likely get blasted for this, but there is still widespread sentiment that a woman with an opinion is automatically a *****, unless she is sure to couch that opinion in lots of "I thinks", "I'm not sure,buts", "maybes", "possiblys" and so on.
> 
> For me, the only solution was to find someone who actually appreciated my qualities.
> 
> My strong confident friends report similar experiences.


This is a natural progression of things as we have had entire generations of strong empowered women. Men are now able to be more selective, especially when it comes to women and sex because women are now pursuing men in numbers and ways they never had before. Sex is easier to attain than it ever has been before. There are now way more fish in the sea than ever before, so there is no need to spend time getting to know someone if there is something not feeling quite right in the very beginning, because there are five others to take their place.

Dating really is like interviewing for a job where there are a lot of resumes for one position. A bunch of otherwise great candidates are eliminated before really being considered because of poor grammar or spelling mistakes on the resume, but so what if the employer gets a good employee in the end anyway.


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## As'laDain

Tomara said:


> Sorry I meant men. Example on my dating profile... Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner.* If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist*. I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally my time in life. Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV. Lol I don't see what's wrong in stating what you are looking for.
> 
> I do see that I may need to temper my voice and a facial looks. People have told me my whole life that they can see how I feel because my face shows it. Ok now down to duct tape and a ski mask lol


i think what you are trying to tell people is that you want to find someone who is open and honest, and not ashamed of who they are or how they feel. you are upfront about how you feel, and if im not misunderstanding, you want someone who is the same way. not a damn thing wrong with that.


but, i will say this much... you are going to scare away any man who has not learned to completely accept themselves. if you are looking for someone who HAS decided to completely own them selves, then all you have to do is keep looking. 

now, that said, i bolded one part in order to give you some insight on how men might emotionally respond to you. when i first read that bit, my very first reaction was to feel judged. i actually suffer from anxiety. its a mental problem. so, when i read that, i felt as though you were saying that you had already judged me to be unworthy of your time, and at the same time already assumed that if i did contact you, it was only to get you to "fix" me. of course, thats the insecurity talking. things like that dont bother me anymore because i can accept that i have anxiety issues, but have decided that it doesnt matter and its not going to stop me. not all men have come to that decision about their own issues. 

i dont actually think your stuck up. i would have if i had never learned to accept myself, but what i think is that you want someone who you dont have to constantly try to interpret. you want someone who will just be honest with you. 

the truth is, there are a lot of guys out there that have insecurity issues. our culture and society often tells them they are wrong for how they feel. you will either have to challenge the men you meet to own themselves, or find a man who has already been challenged and decided to step up. 

what it comes down to is, i think you just need to keep looking. or just settle for challenging them. either of the two would eventually reveal the kind of guy your looking for.


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## Skate Daddy 9

Nobody wants other people’s opinions crammed down there throat. There is a time and place to stand up for what is really important but you can make everything into an unnecessary battle by thinking you are right all the time. 6+4=10 but so does 5+5, sometimes there is more than one way to get to the same end result and if it doesn’t matter leave it alone. You are going to run off not just men but anyone who could have been your friend by assuming you are right all the time.


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## As'laDain

Skate Daddy 9 said:


> Nobody wants other people’s opinions crammed down there throat. There is a time and place to stand up for what is really important but you can make everything into an unnecessary battle by thinking you are right all the time. 6+4=10 but so does 5+5, sometimes there is more than one way to get to the same end result and if it doesn’t matter leave it alone. You are going to run off not just men but anyone who could have been your friend by assuming you are right all the time.


OP, did you date this man?


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## richardsharpe

Good evening Tamara
Its difficult to tell since I've never met you, but some people confuse "strong" with rude and disrespectful. 

There are lots of subtle signs that people give in a conversation. Is it possible that you are not simply holding your opinions, but that you are being dismissive of the opinions of others? 

I wonder if subtle social clues work differently for men and women? 

If you are talking with someone who is fundamentally stupid, then there is no point wasting your time trying to convince them. 

If you are talking with someone who is intelligent, then the first goal is to understand WHY they think the way that they do - then you can see why you disagree.


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## always_alone

FrenchFry said:


> Okay! Well here is one thing-- your dating profile sounds a little defensive like you've been burned a few times by these issues. You can absolutely have those filters but I would leave it off the profile and save it for the information gathering stages of dating.


Or leave them on the profile, but framed in a more positive light.

For example:

Am looking to share my life and TV remote with an equal partner who appreciates all the good things in his life, and wants to enjoy [insert favorite adult activities].


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## Tomara

I would never be dismissive of ones opinion. I try never to speak down to someone as this was how I was treated for 16 years. Guess some of this is a little hard to convey.


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## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> This is a natural progression of things as we have had entire generations of strong empowered women. Men are now able to be more selective, especially when it comes to women and sex because women are now pursuing men in numbers and ways they never had before. Sex is easier to attain than it ever has been before. There are now way more fish in the sea than ever before, so there is no need to spend time getting to know someone if there is something not feeling quite right in the very beginning, because there are five others to take their place.


New? This is nothing new. Men have always been able to select or reject whoever they want (barring arranged marriages, I suppose). Just as women have.

And personally, I would much rather a guy make it known right from the get-go that he doesn't want to deal with someone who will challenge him because quite frankly that is someone I'd rule out myself, equally quickly. Better to weed them out right away than waste time pretending that you might like each other.

My point was not that it was a bad thing to see them turn tail and run. Just that it is a "thing". Strong women are very often assumed to be rigid, *****y, undesirable, unattractive, and all sorts of other nasty things. It's just the way it is.

And can't say that I buy he job interview analogy. It's not like dating is a list of 300 applicants competing for a cashier position at Wal-Mart. If anything it is a mutual interview where both parties are assessing whether they want to spend time with the other person.


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## ocotillo

Tomara said:


> I would never be dismissive of ones opinion. I try never to speak down to someone as this was how I was treated for 16 years. Guess some of this is a little hard to convey.


I think that can happen inadvertently if personal preferences are stated as virtues. (And I mean this constructively.) 

For example:



Tomara said:


> ...someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV.


I'd take this to mean that you're not interested in a sports fanatic who's going to monopolize the television and ignore you for hours on end during football season (Or something like that.) 

But in the end, that's probably just a matter of finding someone with compatible interests and preferences rather than an issue with a partner's self confidence (?)


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## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> New? This is nothing new. Men have always been able to select or reject whoever they want (barring arranged marriages, I suppose). Just as women have.
> 
> And personally, I would much rather a guy make it known right from the get-go that he doesn't want to deal with someone who will challenge him because quite frankly that is someone I'd rule out myself, equally quickly. Better to weed them out right away than waste time pretending that you might like each other.
> 
> And can't say that I buy he job interview analogy. * It's not like dating is a list of 300 applicants competing* for a cashier position at Wal-Mart. If anything it is a mutual interview where both parties are assessing whether they want to spend time with the other person.


It was for me not too long ago 

What you frame as men not wanting a woman to challenge them, often comes off in reality as a woman who is inflexibly demanding, her way or the high way, else she is just acquiescing to the man. She may very well not be that way, but in my experience, a woman who feels she has to tell me up front that she is strong, and independent throws red flags to the aforementioned behavior, and rather than seeming confident, it seems arrogant...a definite turn off. If she truly is strong and independent, one would think that her actions would speak for them selves.


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## EleGirl

Tomara said:


> Sorry I meant men. Example on my dating profile... Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner. *If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist. *
> I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally my time in life. Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV. Lol I don't see what's wrong in stating what you are looking for.


I find the underlined part a bit too much. It's negative. Negatives are not good in a profile.



Tomara said:


> I do see that I may need to temper my voice and a facial looks. People have told me my whole life that they can see how I feel because my face shows it. Ok now down to duct tape and a ski mask lol


:rofl:


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## EleGirl

samyeagar said:


> It was for me not too long ago
> 
> What you frame as men not wanting a woman to challenge them, often comes off in reality as a woman who is inflexibly demanding, her way or the high way, else she is just acquiescing to the man. She may very well not be that way, but in my experience, a woman who feels she has to tell me up front that she is strong, and independent throws red flags to the aforementioned behavior, and rather than seeming confident, it seems arrogant...a definite turn off. If she truly is strong and independent, one would think that her actions would speak for them selves.


I'm not sure that the OP or any other woman here is talking about a woman just coming out and telling men that she's strong and independent.

"Hello, I'm Jane. Nice to meet you finally. I just want you to know right up front that I'm strong and independent."

That's not the way it goes. At least not for most women, even the strong and independent ones.


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## Tomara

The remote comment was meant to be tongue in cheek as I am a sports nut and say so in my profile. I do believe there are a lot of men that don't give a true effort if the woman has their act together. Man to the rescue behavior personality.


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## EleGirl

Tomara,

We still do not have enough info about how you come off to be of much help. 

Perhaps it's the way you are meeting these men. If it's on a dating site that might be the problem. When I've met guys from dating sites it seldom has gone well. My impression is that most of them are players who are looking for a quick roll in the hay. If they quickly figure out that you want more than that, they are gone.

They don't care if you want or don't want someone to take care of you or if you want them to share the remote. They don't plan on staying around along enough for those things to matter.

Perhaps if you try some alternative ways to find a guy... like Find your people - Meetup 

Find things that you like to do and go do them. You will meet both men and women who enjoy the same thing. Over time you can form friendships with men that are not based on the quick dating elimination ritual that dating sites seem to lead to.


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## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> It was for me not too long ago
> 
> What you frame as men not wanting a woman to challenge them, often comes off in reality as a woman who is inflexibly demanding, her way or the high way, else she is just acquiescing to the man. She may very well not be that way, but in my experience, a woman who feels she has to tell me up front that she is strong, and independent throws red flags to the aforementioned behavior, and rather than seeming confident, it seems arrogant...a definite turn off. If she truly is strong and independent, one would think that her actions would speak for them selves.


Okay, well I'm super glad for you that there are line-ups of women who want you, but you do of course realize that at least some of these women had equally long line-ups of men seeking their attention? That's what I meant. Just because you had your opportunity to "interview" doesn't mean that they aren't in equally a strong position. It's even slightly possible that you wouldn't have made it into the second round because she had too many other fish.

And yes, I know. Strong, confident women set off all sorts of red flags because the types of behaviours (assertive, don't put up with bs, get things done, lead others, run businesses, etc) just aren't considered attractive in a woman by and large.


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## SadSamIAm

Tomara said:


> The remote comment was meant to be tongue in cheek as I am a sports nut and say so in my profile. I do believe there are a lot of men that don't give a true effort if the woman has their act together. Man to the rescue behavior personality.


Maybe the rest of your profile is needed to make the remote sound better.

I read it as, "I will have no problem changing the channel on you if you think you can just sit and watch sports all day." Sounds confrontational. You would have been better to say, "Not interested in someone that spends too much time watching sports."

But since it was tongue in cheek, maybe the rest of your profile makes that clear. Otherwise you might want to change it to say something like, "Enjoy spending time watching football/baseball/hockey!"


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## FrenchFry

> "Hello, I'm Jane. Nice to meet you finally. I just want you to know right up front that I'm strong and independent."


:lol:



> I do believe there are a lot of men that don't give a true effort if the woman has their act together. Man to the rescue behavior personality.


Those aren't the men you should be going out with! If they don't give effort because you have your ish together, on to the next one. Even if you are saying "Hi, I'm Jane," and that turns off men like Samyeagar, even if you are a more rigid personality, don't waste time on those guys that can't put up with it.


Defensiveness and negativity are two things to avoid no matter what though, they are a complete barrier to personality no matter how awesome.


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## SadSamIAm

always_alone said:


> Okay, well I'm super glad for you that there are line-ups of women who want you, but you do of course realize that at least some of these women had equally long line-ups of men seeking their attention? That's what I meant. Just because you had your opportunity to "interview" doesn't mean that they aren't in equally a strong position. It's even slightly possible that you wouldn't have made it into the second round because she had too many other fish.
> 
> And yes, I know. Strong, confident women set off all sorts of red flags because the types of behaviours (assertive, don't put up with bs, get things done, lead others, run businesses, etc) just aren't considered attractive in a woman by and large.


I don't think many men have issues with women that:

Are assertive
Don't put up with BS
Get things done
Lead others
Run Businesses

These are all good traits. The issue would be someone that does these things and is arrogant about it. Or someone that doesn't take the others feelings into account.


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## ocotillo

Tomara said:


> The remote comment was meant to be tongue in cheek as I am a sports nut and say so in my profile. I do believe there are a lot of men that don't give a true effort if the woman has their act together. Man to the rescue behavior personality.



Okay - Makes perfect sense in context. 

Speaking as someone with a dry sense of humor too, I've gotta say that it often falls flat in written form.


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## Skate Daddy 9

If you are dating a lot of different men then you are probably in the early stages of dating, if you are arguing with someone on a first or second date that is a problem, if you are arguing with all of the men you date then you are probably the problem.


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## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> Okay, well I'm super glad for you that there are line-ups of women who want you, but you do of course realize that at least some of these women had equally long line-ups of men seeking their attention? That's what I meant. Just because you had your opportunity to "interview" doesn't mean that they aren't in equally a strong position. It's even slightly possible that you wouldn't have made it into the second round because she had too many other fish.
> 
> And yes, I know. Strong, confident women set off all sorts of red flags because the types of behaviours (*assertive, don't put up with bs, get things done, lead others, run businesses, etc*) just aren't considered attractive in a woman by and large.


And I call BS on that. Strong, independent women who are assertive, don't put up with BS, get things done are very attractive...it's the ones who act like they have something to prove who are unattractive. The same has been said by women about strong assertive men...that line between the strong man that women fall all over and the man who is the douche bag ass hat is a very fine line. Confidence vs arrogance...the confident one is attractive, the arrogant one is not.

Strong, independent women, AND men who approach a relationship as they would run a business are going to fail, because a relationship, for many people is give and take with neither being the absolute final authority.

And of course I was being interviewed by the women I dated, and I wouldn't expect to make it into the second round for a lot of them because of all of the other fish...that would be pretty self evident I would think


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## As'laDain

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't think many men have issues with women that:
> 
> Are assertive
> Don't put up with BS
> Get things done
> Lead others
> Run Businesses
> 
> These are all good traits. *The issue would be someone that does these things and is arrogant about it*. Or someone that doesn't take the others feelings into account.


i have no problem with arrogant women. i just state things how i see it and just get back to aquascaping my fish tank. or to my long distance run. or to whatever the hell else i was doing before i saw arrogance. dwelling on it is just a waste of time.


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## As'laDain

samyeagar said:


> And I call BS on that. Strong, independent women who are assertive, don't put up with BS, get things done are very attractive...it's the ones who act like they have something to prove who are unattractive. The same has been said by women about strong assertive men...that line between the strong man that women fall all over and the man who is the douche bag ass hat is a very fine line. Confidence vs arrogance...the confident one is attractive, the arrogant one is not.
> 
> Strong, independent women, AND men who approach a relationship as they would run a business are going to fail, because a relationship, for many people is give and take with neither being the absolute final authority.
> 
> And of course I was being interviewed by the women I dated, and I wouldn't expect to make it into the second round for a lot of them because of all of the other fish...that would be pretty self evident I would think


you know whats funny? i approach my relationships just like i approach business. 

do what works. if what you are doing doesnt work, dont do it. 

i guage them both by the question "does it work?".


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
human communication is so complicated. The exact same words said in a slightly different tone, or with different facial expressions can be a friendly discussion, or a a offensive belittlement.

There is really no way to tell if the OP is being reasonable or not without actually observing her interactions.


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## samyeagar

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> human communication is so complicated. The exact same words said in a slightly different tone, or with different facial expressions can be a friendly discussion, or a a offensive belittlement.
> 
> There is really no way to tell if the OP is being reasonable or not without actually observing her interactions.


And that's just it...the nuances of how it is being communicated.

Always_alone has noted the reactions she gets from many, many posters here, when she is essentially saying the same things as other women who don't elicit the same negative reaction. It often simply comes down to styles...some are received better than others.


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## AliceA

It's all about tone imo. It doesn't matter what you say, if you are saying it with the wrong tone, it's the tone that will either make the comment nice or nasty.

An example, I was once told I was the most laid back person this guy had ever met, after I had repeatedly refused his requests for sex. I remember being very careful to keep my rejections light but firm and not provoke him as I was in a vulnerable situation with him, alone in my house (thanks to a flatmate leaving him there with me).

I think if you become a lot more conscious of your tone and manner when speaking, take more notice of people's reactions and use that to modify how you're speaking, you'll learn how to be yourself without unintentionally offending people.


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## Tomara

Breeze I think the last paragraph you wrote is right on. Something to watch as I am dealing with the opposite sex. And as others have stated I think I am dating the wrong type of man. I seem to run across the ones that don't have their sh** together. Therefore, it's doomed before it starts.


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## samyeagar

breeze said:


> It's all about tone imo. It doesn't matter what you say, if you are saying it with the wrong tone, it's the tone that will either make the comment nice or nasty.
> 
> An example, I was once told I was the most laid back person this guy had ever met, after I had repeatedly refused his requests for sex. I remember being very careful to keep my rejections light but firm and not provoke him as I was in a vulnerable situation with him, alone in my house (thanks to a flatmate leaving him there with me).
> 
> *I think if you become a lot more conscious of your tone and manner when speaking, take more notice of people's reactions and use that to modify how you're speaking, you'll learn how to be yourself without unintentionally offending people*.





Tomara said:


> *Breeze I think the last paragraph you wrote is right on*. Something to watch as I am dealing with the opposite sex. And as others have stated I think I am dating the wrong type of man. I seem to run across the ones that don't have their sh** together. Therefore, it's doomed before it starts.


This is very encouraging. Many people fall into the trap of thinking that if they change their approach, they are somehow giving in, being weak, not being true to themselves. The whole "I ain't changin' for nobody." mindset. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling that way, however one should not then be surprised when their relations with other people, and other peoples reactions continue to be the same.


----------



## lordmayhem

Tomara said:


> Sorry I meant men. Example on my dating profile... Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner. _If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist. I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally *my time* in life._ Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV. Lol I don't see what's wrong in stating what you are looking for.
> 
> I do see that I may need to temper my voice and a facial looks. People have told me my whole life that they can see how I feel because my face shows it. Ok now down to duct tape and a ski mask lol


You actually have that in your dating profile? :scratchhead:

No offense, but my initial reaction would be "what a stuck up b!tch, she thinks she's too good for most men".

Then I would immediately picture the first girlfriend of Stu, from the Hangover movies, the bossy, self-centered b!tch who cheated on him.

Maybe a few men are intimidated, but not most. *They just don't want to be fighting all the time*. I will NOT be the guy (and we all know one of these guys) who has a b!tch for a girlfriend/wife, and treats him like sh!t, the guy that the other guys talk about, ridicule, or feel sorry for. Being the eldest of 6 kids, I was raised to be the leader, which has followed me all throughout my military and professional life. I would definitely clash with such a woman.


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## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> Always_alone has noted the reactions she gets from many, many posters here, when she is essentially saying the same things as other women who don't elicit the same negative reaction. It often simply comes down to styles...some are received better than others.


Well, yes, because along with being strong and confident, I am a sarcastic PITA, and as we all know sarcasm is the least attractive quality of all.

But while there certainly are some men that can truly appreciate a strong and confident woman, I can virtually guarantee you that every strong and confidant woman has run into the problem that women are "supposed" to be demure, acquiescent, nurturing, deferential, follower, and failing to fulfill those stereotypes will likely as not get you labelled a ball-busting hag. No matter how nice you are.

Things are, of course, improving on this front, and it does depend on one's circles. But it is a common refrain from all the strong confident women I know, especially those who dare to tread into male-dominated fields.


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## Tomara

Lordmeyhem.... WOW I said comments welcome but not attacks. There was not a single thing is your response other than to attack. Actually I am not a biotch but a very caring person. That being said I don't / won't pretend to be a doormat to get a guy.


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## samyeagar

One of the differences between confident and arrogant is considering that the problem could be with ones self versus assuming it's everyone else.


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## always_alone

There is virtually no overlap between strong and confident and bossy and *****y. Indeed the latter is usually a sign of massive insecurity and/or addiction to drama.


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## Tomara

Remember we a dealing with my personality here.... That is why I came here for help.


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## samyeagar

Tomara said:


> Lordmeyhem.... WOW I said comments welcome but not attacks. There was not a single thing is your response other than to attack. *Actually I am not a biotch but a very caring person*. That being said I don't / won't pretend to be a doormat to get a guy.


I don't have enough to go on here to doubt that, so I don't  That said, what lordmayhem conveyed was his thoughts and feeling in relation to what you wrote. I didn't see anywhere in there that he personally attacked you. Everybody will have a different take on what you wrote. From what you have said, many men react more closely to what LM said above than the other direction.


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## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> One of the differences between confident and arrogant is considering that the problem could be with ones self versus assuming it's everyone else.


Yes, Sam, but since she's talking about wearing a ski mask and duct tape, I think she gets that point.

I personally find it very amusing that whenever a woman suggests that men are intimidated by strong women, a bunch of men rush in to say "no, we're not intimidated, you're just unattractive", but when a man says it (see earlier posts), it flies by without coment.

So it's clearly not just in the delivery, but in the *who* that is delivering it.


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## samyeagar

Tomara said:


> Remember we a dealing with my personality here.... That is why I came here for help.


Reality is that certain personalities attract certain types of people, and sometimes what one attracts does not fit with what one wants. It is certainly ones right to say I will not change myself just to attract a different kind of person, but that mindset reeks of entitlement.


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## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> Yes, Sam, but since she's talking about wearing a ski mask and duct tape, I think she gets that point.
> 
> I personally find it very amusing that whenever a woman suggests that men are intimidated by strong women, a bunch of men rush in to say "*no, we're not intimidated, you're just unattractive*", but when a man says it (see earlier posts), it flies by without coment.
> 
> So it's clearly not just in the delivery, but in the *who* that is delivering it.


And of course it's more palatable to believe that they are intimidated than simply not attracted....and the flip side, it's more palatable to say they aren't attracted than simply admit they are intimidated...nice chicken and egg variant here.


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## FrenchFry

Entitlement is fine when it comes to dating. Why wouldn't it be?


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## AliceA

samyeagar said:


> Reality is that certain personalities attract certain types of people, and sometimes what one attracts does not fit with what one wants. It is certainly ones right to say I will not change myself just to attract a different kind of person, but that mindset reeks of entitlement.


I don't get that vibe off the OP. Some people don't 'change themselves' because they don't know how to, or don't have a goal for the change they find palatable. I also don't believe it's about 'changing' yourself anyway, but about learning about yourself and others.

Some men would say to a woman who is self defined as a strong personality type, 'you have to change if you want a man'. This doesn't encourage a positive goal. Who wants a man if other men are implying a woman has to be weak to do it? Personally, I'd prefer to tell these men where they can stick their crappy relationships.

However, if the goal is not to 'get a man who will only want you if you are not you', but to improve on your communication skills, not just with men, but with all people, then that is a much better goal to have.


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## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> Entitlement is fine when it comes to dating. Why wouldn't it be?


Of course it's fine when dating...until one runs into the same problem over and over because of it.


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## samyeagar

breeze said:


> I don't get that vibe off the OP. Some people don't 'change themselves' because they don't know how to, or don't have a goal for the change they find palatable. I also don't believe it's about 'changing' yourself anyway, but about learning about yourself and others.
> 
> Some men would say to a woman who is self defined as a strong personality type, 'you have to change if you want a man'. This doesn't encourage a positive goal. Who wants a man if other men are implying a woman has to be weak to do it? Personally, I'd prefer to tell these men where they can stick their crappy relationships.
> 
> However, if the goal is not to 'get a man who will only want you if you are not you', but to improve on your communication skills, not just with men, but with all people, then that is a much better goal to have.


I agree completely with the sentiments here. Very often, suggestions of how better to frame and present thoughts to get the desired results is met with resistance and interpreted as "changing" ones self. You are absolutely right in that they are not the same at all.


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## FrenchFry

I don't think the problem is entitlement. I ran into a lot of problems while dating not because of entitlement but because of:

*negativity
*false expectations
*incompatibility.

I don't think changing what I feel like I'm entitled to would have fixed the problem. I don't get the sense this would help OP either.


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## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> I don't think the problem is entitlement. I ran into a lot of problems while dating not because of entitlement but because of:
> 
> *negativity
> *false expectations
> *incompatibility.
> 
> I don't think changing what I feel like I'm entitled to would have fixed the problem. I don't get the sense this would help OP either.


What I meant by entitlement in this sense is the attitude of I deserve to have what I want simply because I want it, regardless of how I act, or what I say, or how I say it.


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## FrenchFry

I was going to post that this may be a semantics issue. 

I'm using it as this is what I deserve in a partner. I don't think this ever has to change, but failure is also an option there. Depends on which one is more important.


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## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> I was going to post that this may be a semantics issue.
> 
> *I'm using it as this is what I deserve in a partner*. I don't think this ever has to change, but failure is also an option there. Depends on which one is more important.


This absolutely. I call that having standards. To me, entitlement means the feeling of deserving something without any expectation of having to put in the effort or having to work for it.

To me, when I hear someone say "This is who I am, deal with it." That sends a message of rigidity and inflexibility. If I like who they are, I'll happily deal with it, if not, I won't bother.

Many people will gladly accept the take it or leave it message, but the person sending it loses the right to be upset when someone else leaves it.


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## AliceA

I get the feeling the OP is showing too much of one side of her personality as a defensive mechanism. Possibly doesn't want to let someone too close just to have them say, 'oh, you are too abrasive, I'm out', so this is the first thing displayed. Sort of a, "here it is, if you can't deal with this, then you don't get the rest".

The caring side, the nurturing side, needs to come out to play a little more in those initial interactions. Put aside the fear of rejection. Take more risk. The caring, loving side doesn't have to be a reward for those who make it through the barrier. Show them a little of your plumage from the get go.

The wording you use in your profile, speak more from the heart. Speak as if you already cared about the person you want to be with, as if he was standing in front of you and loved you for who you are, good and bad. Speak as if you would love him totally and feel a great tenderness towards him.

There have been comments that we attract what we put out. If you put out the caring side of your personality, you may attract that caring man you are looking for.


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## samyeagar

breeze said:


> I get the feeling the OP is showing too much of one side of her personality as a defensive mechanism. Possibly doesn't want to let someone too close just to have them say, 'oh, you are too abrasive, I'm out', so this is the first thing displayed. Sort of a, "*here it is, if you can't deal with this, then you don't get the rest*".
> 
> The caring side, the nurturing side, needs to come out to play a little more in those initial interactions. Put aside the fear of rejection. Take more risk. The caring, loving side doesn't have to be a reward for those who make it through the barrier. Show them a little of your plumage from the get go.
> 
> The wording you use in your profile, speak more from the heart. Speak as if you already cared about the person you want to be with, as if he was standing in front of you and loved you for who you are, good and bad. Speak as if you would love him totally and feel a great tenderness towards him.
> 
> There have been comments that we attract what we put out. If you put out the caring side of your personality, you may attract that caring man you are looking for.


Excellent observations. To the bolded point, many men, and women as well have a lot of options in the dating realm, and early on, there is little incentive or motivation to even bother trying to get past the hardened exterior...why waste the time when one can just say...Next!


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> I personally find it very amusing that whenever a woman suggests that men are intimidated by strong women....


I wonder if it's a matter of degree or perceptions or both? (This is an honest question )

I've heard that Marilyn vos Savant dated a number of men and most of them were so far out of their depth around her that it wasn't even funny. So at a certain point, I could understand being a little intimidated. 

--But I do think there are a lot of awfully childish men out there...


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## JCD

Tomara said:


> Remember we a dealing with my personality here.... That is why I came here for help.


Um...not to put too fine a point on it, but no, you don't seem to be focusing on 'you' or your personality a whole lot

- "my pick is broke" i.e. the men are wrong.

- "a lot of men don't have their sh!t together" i.e. the men are wrong.

- "Maybe I'm too strong and confident for them" i.e the men are weak.

- "Men just want someone to rescue" i.e. men always have to be in charge of the relationship

The closest you are coming to self examination is a joke about duct tape and a ski mask...which means that men can't take the unexpurgated you, i.e. the men are wrong.

Breeze gave a bunch of good advice. So did Sam.

I would suggest that one of bring one of your more sensitive and insightful female friends (and her male partner/spouse) to dine nearby on one of your dates to get a read on what is happening.

This, of course, only works if you can take advice. Some people can't. 

If your friend says everything is fine, that means you can't and she knows it 

Because obviously something is off.

Here is one clue: Men want to see a role for themselves and to have an importance in the relationship besides 'vibrator replacement' and 'someone to take to dinner so my mom doesn't complain to me the entire meal'. If 'independent' means 'inaccessible', I'd probably walk too.

I cannot comment on how you are. I don't know you. I know what is important to some men.


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## Tomara

My picker is broke says nothing about the man, it's says something about me. My confidence surly needs some refining I will admit but I don't think it should change who u r at heart. 

Yes there has been some very good advice and it had been taken to heart and head. 

I have made the decision to delete dating profiles and figure out why to some of my questions. I believe if you step back sometimes you can see the hole you have been standing in.


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## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> And of course it's more palatable to believe that they are intimidated than simply not attracted....


When they quite literally take a step backwards and say "oh my, I better not argue with you", I rather think "intimidated" is exactly the right word. Of course, "unattractive" may also apply, but in those cases, intimidation clearly came first.

Also, when you are told outright that you are "intimidating", I would think that again "intimidating" is exactly the right word.

And yes, of course, many, many, many people have told me I have to be more demure, play dumb, fawn, not say what I think bat my eyelashes, or what have you, and I would attract more men. Maybe they're right, but all I would accomplish is either getting them to stick around for a second date before they get to see the real me, or make myself so completely miserable that my head explodes. Neither really ever seemed worth the effort.


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> I wonder if it's a matter of degree or perceptions or both? (This is an honest question )
> 
> I've heard that Marilyn vos Savant dated a number of men and most of them were so far out of their depth around her that it wasn't even funny. So at a certain point, I could understand being a little intimidated.
> 
> --But I do think there are a lot of awfully childish men out there...


I would think it relative, at the very least. One person's challenge is another's every day ho hum.


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## michzz

Maybe I'm dense, but I didn't read of any examples of your strength and the men you find not liking it.

Can you, the OP, give examples of your interactions with others that has led yo to believe that you are a strong and confident woman surrounded by men who don't appreciate such a person?


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> I would think it relative, at the very least. One person's challenge is another's every day ho hum.


I agree. My gut feeling though is that the farther you go to the right hand side of the bell curve, the less, "Ho hums" there are going to be. 

In Marilyn's case, how many eligible Robert Jarviks were there in the world?


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## Tomara

First example, speaking to a man that I gave my phone number to.... Yet he continued to email me on the dating site instead of just texting. I don't check the site everyday. He states I am blowing him off... I say text me instead, not blowing u off. He states it's hard to text because his hands hurt texting..... Hum yet you can type. I simple say you have my number you can use it.... I get yea I have your number later. I tell him I can fix his problem, delete my number. So then I am the biotch. Common sense would say call and talk instead of text duh. 

That is just on of many.... I tend not to put up with stupid behavior so of course I am wrong. 

Guy came over to play cards Sat night. He proceeded to get so drunk. I took his keys and cut him off. He says I am going to the bar it call some of my friends to come over. I said you are doing neither. I tell him to go to bed and he decides it's time for grope feast. I get down right pissed. Finally he is asleep but I can't sleep because I don't know what he is going to do. I let him sleep for 7 hours... 5 gets here in the morning and I wake him up and tell him to get the f**** out. I am the Biotch again. 

So the picker is broken for sure. As long as I do what the guy expects its all good. When I say hold up I am the wrong one. 

I am not looking for a FWB or ons. Is that all that is out there? 

I could give you a million more just like said. So I do go into a possible relationship with a chip on my shoulder because I don't want crap. Crap in equals crap out!


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## Tomara

Intheory u are so right. I can appreciate the kinder side of a man. I would like to be appreciated for the can do, get things done type person I am. I was made to be that person by my parent, my marriage. If things weren't done then it was my fault.


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## FrenchFry

What dating sites are you on?

The two examples you gave a) aren't revealing a pattern b) really aren't even you coming off as a bad person--your dates are.

What attracted you to those two examples you gave?


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## richardsharpe

Good evening tomara
the first case isn't so bad - I hate texting, guess I'm the wrong generation, would much rather have an email address (even throw-away) so I can use a real keyboard. Couldn't you have checked the site more often if he didn't like to text? It seems like a reasonable compromise.

The second case is completely unreasonable and dumping him was completely the right thing to do.

To me your line on your dating site:
*[If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist.]* would be a big red flag.

The requirement is fine, but it carries the implication "most of the men who date me have been crazy". Hmm, when someone implies that everyone else is crazy, I worry. I think you should simply drop that from your profile "no crazy people wanted" is assumed in all profile.

You haven't posted your profile, but what are you looking for and what are you asking for:

"I love the outdoors and am looking for someone to travel, hike, and kayak with"

"I love sailing, and am looking for someone who thinks getting soaked in a Laser sounds like fun".

"I love to travel and am looking forward to a couple of weeks in Rome later this year". 

"I'm a Thai kick-boxing champion and want someone to spar with".

"I love the jazz scene in New Orleans"

What sorts of things does your profile suggest you like, what sort of men are you trying to attract. Maybe you are being too generic and are only attracting people who don't have a good idea of what they want out of life.







Tomara said:


> First example, speaking to a man that I gave my phone number to.... Yet he continued to email me on the dating site instead of just texting. I don't check the site everyday. He states I am blowing him off... I say text me instead, not blowing u off. He states it's hard to text because his hands hurt texting..... Hum yet you can type. I simple say you have my number you can use it.... I get yea I have your number later. I tell him I can fix his problem, delete my number. So then I am the biotch. Common sense would say call and talk instead of text duh.
> 
> That is just on of many.... I tend not to put up with stupid behavior so of course I am wrong.
> 
> Guy came over to play cards Sat night. He proceeded to get so drunk. I took his keys and cut him off. He says I am going to the bar it call some of my friends to come over. I said you are doing neither. I tell him to go to bed and he decides it's time for grope feast. I get down right pissed. Finally he is asleep but I can't sleep because I don't know what he is going to do. I let him sleep for 7 hours... 5 gets here in the morning and I wake him up and tell him to get the f**** out. I am the Biotch again.
> 
> So the picker is broken for sure. As long as I do what the guy expects its all good. When I say hold up I am the wrong one.
> 
> I am not looking for a FWB or ons. Is that all that is out there?
> 
> I could give you a million more just like said. So I do go into a possible relationship with a chip on my shoulder because I don't want crap. Crap in equals crap out!


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## Tomara

No thread jacking but such a wonderful way of putting it. We each have our strong point and it's beautiful when you can share that with the one you love. Thank you for putting it eloquently.


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## Flying_Dutchman

People attach all kinds of positive labels to themselves - strong, independent, generous, forgiving, Christian, altruistic, fun-loving, kind (etc, etc) - and I have no reason to doubt them,,, until they reveal a pattern of harping on and on about it.

When they do that, it suggests an underlying desperation to be perceived as the type of person they're telling you they are. Why? To deceive? Because they're not confident that you'll see them as they want to be seen? Surely, if you are X,Y or Z, it'll shine through. Do I look so stupid you don't trust me to figure you out for myself?

It reminds me of those wannabe tough guys. Always picking fights so everyone can see how tough they are. A good time to see how tough they really are is on an episode of Cops - crying in the back of a patrol car,, tears streaking their tattoos and bad boy stubble designs.

REAL tough guys don't pick fights,, don't even get in them unless they have to. They exist with a quiet confidence that they can sort shít out if the need arises.

Reading Tomara's posts, she's sure meeting some åssholes - hurt hands guy,, drunk disrespectful guy - and seems to deal with them well. No indication that she's not 'strong',, so why focus on 'strength' as the apparent problem?

Weak guys resent strong women,, and guys on dating sites who get hurt when you don't reply right away are weak. Guys who need to get wasted on a (card) date are weak.

Question should be, why does Tomara keep selecting weak men? Is it her picking skills that're iffy? Or, does she question her own strength - that she seems a little keen for us to accept - and avoid strong men who might detect an underlying fragility?

I don't pretend to know the answer. I only know that the labels people hang on themselves can't always be taken at face value. Also, when the 'database' of examples provided are weak men,, who's to say that stronger men would find her alleged strength offputting?

How does a strong, independent woman,, the type that knows what she wants, keep winding up dating totally inappropriate men?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Flying_Dutchman

I don't know. I don't know that she is overstating. She may be. The only constant is her inappropriate date choices. Not the gender,, but the weak examples of that gender. She seems to deal with them strongly but only when their weakness becomes obvious.

Picking skills or 'other'? I Can't tell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CuddleBug

Tomara said:


> I am a single women with a confident personality. I don't understand why men think you are pissy because you speak your thoughts. When I do so, it's not in a confrontation, it's simply my thoughts.
> 
> Yes there are things in my life that have made me strong..... Like raising two kids 24/ 7. Keeping a house over their heads and teaching them to be strong confident adults.
> 
> I am at a loss because men I date see me as stuck up, outspoken and a not very nice person.
> 
> I have been abused in my primary relationship and it took 15 + years to have my voice. Why am I so wrong? What can I work on to have men understand. If it means buckling under..... That's not a choice.
> 
> I would very much appreciate some constructive direction. I have been on this site for some time and I have seen some awesome strong women here!



I personally would love a woman who speaks her mind, not politically correct, and takes the initiative.

I am sorry you had a bad relationship and got hurt. You became strong and that's good for you.

But being too strong is also a bad thing. I wouldn't want a woman who is too head strong because we'd always be fighting.

I'd want an equal, my first mate, while I am the captain and run the ship so to speak. But she would have input on all things and be my equal.

If men see you as stuck up and not a nice lady......tone it down a bit and you don't have to be so strong because of your past. That will backfire on you.

Or you are dating guys that are passive and don't like strong, aggressive women. 

Dating sites profile and be honest about yourself but also realistic. State you are looking for an equal, a strong man. Not a drinker, not a party guy and he likes kids. Say you got out of an abusive relationship and have become strong from it, so the men know this before you even meet them.

Example. At my work, there is a woman, 4 ft 11 and she is extremely head strong, controlling and comes across as a *****. No guy in the shop would ever date her or want to date her, even if they were single. She is always right when she is clearly wrong and doesn't listen. That type of a woman. If you're not like this, maybe just dating the wrong passive guys?


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## JCD

Tomara said:


> Sorry I meant men. Example on my dating profile... Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner. If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist. I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally my time in life. Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV. Lol I don't see what's wrong in stating what you are looking for.
> 
> I do see that I may need to temper my voice and a facial looks. People have told me my whole life that they can see how I feel because my face shows it. Ok now down to duct tape and a ski mask lol


There is nothing 'wrong' per se in what you wrote. It is direct and honest. However, reading this...I'd be hesitant. Now, while I would follow up and ask questions about what you meant, I can show you how what you wrote is filled with a couple of red flags and how they CAN be translated by a man.



> Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner.


"My JUNIOR partner. Expect the potential of a lot of uncomfortable disputes over paying checks, our finances and other related issues."




> If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist.


"I will characterize any personality flaws in you as 'crazy' and examine you minutely for the same. I am looking to put the minimum amount of effort into any relationship."

Essentially, this is saying "I want a 'use out of the box' boyfriend". Now, that is well and good...provided you are as together as what you are demanding. If you are looking for a prize...you need to be one as well.



> I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally my time in life.


"I wanna do what *I* wanna do. Hope you enjoy my choices. And I am not interested in your children."




> Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV.


"You are never holding the remote control again. And if by chance you do grab it, you better be alone because I am going to complain if you watch what I don't want to."

This one is specifically egregious. Because who are you looking for? Single middle aged men with grown kids. Essentially, their entertainment choices are the only thing they've had to keep it together...and you are suggesting that it going to go away. The NFL is, to their minds, a more reliable bet then you are! So this has got to go.

**

Now, I seriously doubt that you meant it this way. But I can see where some guys who have it together may say..."mmm...too much 'me' and not enough 'us'" and move on to the next profile.

Try to project a sense of hope for the future, not a set of diktats.

Something like this:

"I am not interested in money, I am interested in sharing experiences with someone."

Take the 'gold digger' issue off the table and also suggests sex. One assumes that is part of this 'partnership'. You are also widening your pool by taking money off the table. Many guys feel that women are only interested in a big wallet.

There is absolutely no way to 'spin' the mental problem thing. Ax it totally. Don't even go into 'drama'. Because relationships ALWAYS have drama.

"My kids are grown and I am exploring the world in a care fee way. I find I am looking for someone similar to enjoy it with and helping me discover other wonderful things out there." 

This highlights what you are looking for without saying "I am not going to be any kind of help with your kids and I don't want them messing up 'my time'." It also suggests you are fiscally secure enough that you aren't going to drain his wallet. Making it seem like he gets a say in your travels is also a plus.

"I enjoy hockey/curling/DWTS. But what I really need is someone to enjoy watching them with me so we can make snarky comments about the referees and squabble over the remote."

This outlines what you like, how you want to share these things and suggests coupledom even as you point out that this is an ENGAGED relationship, not him vegging to sports constantly while still being a trifle light hearted. Because if I am a lonely single guy, the prospect of some give and take and some light hearted banter is exactly what I would be looking for.

Hope this helps.


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## Holland

Tomara said:


> Sorry I meant men. *Example on my dating profile... Not looking for someone to take care of me but be my partner. If you have a mental problem please pass by me as I don't have the meds or am a Psychiatrist. I prefer to date men with grown children as this is finally my time in life. Would like someone that is confident enough to share the remote control if there is sports on TV. Lol I don't see what's wrong in stating what you are looking for. *
> 
> I do see that I may need to temper my voice and a facial looks. People have told me my whole life that they can see how I feel because my face shows it. Ok now down to duct tape and a ski mask lol


I would suggest you rewrite your profile, it is negative and TBH off putting (and I'm female LOL).

Sure there is nothing wrong with stating what you are looking for but you are giving some real back handers here. Sounds like you are going in with the attitude that you look down on men.
Maybe try to come across as a more open, positive woman and you will attract good men.

FWIW I really enjoyed OLD and met some great guys. Sure there are some creeps out there but it is very easy to spot the genuine ones very quickly and only go for a quick coffee meet to get a better idea of who they are.

All of the guys I met said they liked my profile, it was positive, showed I was a strong woman and looking to live life.
One of the most appreciated lines was "I have a great, happy, busy life, I am not looking for someone to fill a void, I am looking for that special someone that can add to my already happy life" or similar I cannot remember now. But they were positive, honest words.


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## Tomara

I have taken my profile down at this point. The one thing I will stand by is dating men with older children. I never once said I would not like the mans child. Smaller children bring a whole different problem to the relationship. I am 51 years young and do feel it's my time in life. Selfish some may think but they are welcome to their thoughts.


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## Tomara

And as I have said in previous posts the remote control statement was tongue and cheek... Joke. But it doesn't matter because the profile is gone.


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## SurpriseMyself

I've known lots of women who are "tough" on the outside, and it's usually a result of trying to protect themselves following some kind of painful experience. It could be that they've had to face difficult circumstances alone, or that they were abused in some way (as this OP said she was in her 15 yr relationship), or [fill in the blank].

Learning to still be strong while also allowing your feminine side is something these women need to do. You can be strong and not abrasive. You can be feminine and have opinions and will and purpose. 

I don't know if you may be this way, OP, but my guess is that you are presenting yourself in a way that says, "I'm strong! I don't need anybody!" If so, you may need to look at why you are doing that.


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## jld

Some men want to be carried by strong women. It seems that is the kind of guy are you attracting. 

A little more vulnerability might attract a different type of man.


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## JCD

Tomara said:


> I have taken my profile down at this point. The one thing I will stand by is dating men with older children. I never once said I would not like the mans child. Smaller children bring a whole different problem to the relationship. I am 51 years young and do feel it's my time in life. Selfish some may think but they are welcome to their thoughts.


I never said it was selfish and I never said you had no intention of doing things with his kids.

But a dating profile is a 'public declaration' which is considered as honest as a White House Press conference....sure, it might be technically true, but you need to try to read a little deeper.

So one could misread your intentions quite easily.

I don't think it is selfish to want to enjoy your time. For the first time in decades, you don't need to feed anyone but yourself or please anyone but yourself. And you'd like company. I think what you need is a rewrite, that's all.


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## Tomara

Agree with last two posts. I have been in one very abusive relationship and several relationships where the men were unavailable emotionally. I don't know where my soft side is anymore which is sad and frustrating for me. Looking from the outside in things are pretty pathetic. Will think about how to lose the abrasive, add feminine without feeling like I am giving up my confident, strong side. That's a big chunk to bite off.


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## Jung_admirer

Tomara said:


> Agree with last two posts. *I have been in one very abusive relationship and several relationships where the men were unavailable emotionally*. I don't know where my soft side is anymore which is sad and frustrating for me. Looking from the outside in things are pretty pathetic. Will think about how to lose the abrasive, add feminine without feeling like I am giving up my confident, strong side. That's a big chunk to bite off.


I don't think it's abnormal to protect yourself after being wounded. The process of healing is a necessary step if you are going to extend trust and vulnerability to a potential partner. Fear of intimacy can unconsciously direct us to choose a potential partner where trust and vulnerability will not likely flourish (i.e. my picker is broken). Kindest Regards-


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## SurpriseMyself

Tomara said:


> Agree with last two posts. I have been in one very abusive relationship and several relationships where the men were unavailable emotionally. I don't know where my soft side is anymore which is sad and frustrating for me. Looking from the outside in things are pretty pathetic. Will think about how to lose the abrasive, add feminine without feeling like I am giving up my confident, strong side. That's a big chunk to bite off.


One of the best pieces of advice I've taken to heart is this: Trust those who are trustworthy.

If someone shows themselves to not be trustworthy, don't let them in!

And don't look at this as a big chunk to bite off, because it shouldn't be handled that way. Learning to love again, to trust again, is something that should be handled in a slow and deliberate way. Start without a man in your life. Just change your interactions with others slowly. Watch how you hold yourself, how you interact, how you enter a room. Take the edge off, first, knowing you are ok. A man should come later.


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## samyeagar

As this has unfolded, I am not seeing a strong confident woman at all. I am seeing a very hurt, vulnerable woman who is trying to convince herself of her strength as much as anything. I see a woman who is emotionally unavailable, and is at least subconsciously broadcasting that to those around her.


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## SurpriseMyself

samyeagar said:


> As this has unfolded, I am not seeing a strong confident woman at all. I am seeing a very hurt, vulnerable woman who is trying to convince herself of her strength as much as anything. I see a woman who is emotionally unavailable, and is at least subconsciously broadcasting that to those around her.


That may be the case, Sam. If so, the best thing we can do is support her on her journey. Acting outwardly tough is a first step to finding your inner strength. It is like a scab over a wound; it is meant to protect the wound so it can heal. Let the scab be and the healing occur. If she is emotionally unavailable and trying to convince herself of her own strength, then that's where she is. The scab has formed; now healing can occur without further damage.

Good luck, OP! It will get better.


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## MaritimeGuy

samyeagar said:


> As this has unfolded, I am not seeing a strong confident woman at all. I am seeing a very hurt, vulnerable woman who is trying to convince herself of her strength as much as anything. I see a woman who is emotionally unavailable, and is at least subconsciously broadcasting that to those around her.


Funny...I don't see that at all. I see a woman who came here looking for advice and considered all that was given. She didn't automatically adopt it but weighed it against her own value system. Seeing how people could interpret her dating profile she took it down. 

An insecure person wouldn't expose themselves this way...not on the internet. Too many haters out there. Not saying that's what happened here but that's always a risk you take when you open yourself up like this. 

So even here two different people interpret her interactions completely differently. The same is going to be true of the real world too.


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## Tomara

I have honestly been listening to everyone except one. I came here because I could open up and truly needed the advice. Haters will be haters. Is there any reading material that might assist me?


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## AliceA

"Getting the Love You Want" by H. Hendrix. You may not currently be in a relationship, but this is the most useful book I've ever read regarding relationships. Can't hurt to be prepared.


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## Jung_admirer

Tomara said:


> I have honestly been listening to everyone except one. I came here because I could open up and truly needed the advice. Haters will be haters. Is there any reading material that might assist me?


Although I haven't read this yet, perhaps start here: 
Emotionally Abusive Relationships: Your Guide to Healing


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## lordmayhem

Tomara said:


> Lordmeyhem.... WOW I said comments welcome but not attacks. There was not a single thing is your response other than to attack. Actually I am not a biotch but a very caring person. That being said I don't / won't pretend to be a doormat to get a guy.


Attack? *You've demonstrated my point completely*. My response was simply how I would view your profile, that's all it is. Most men do not want to have fights with their partner all the time and it seems you view a relationship as a battle or power struggle. You tout yourself as being wanting to speak your thoughts, yet you can't handle it when someone is being honest and speaking their mind with you. 

Most men don't want a doormat, but they don't want to be constantly fighting all the time. Perhaps its the other way around with you, since you were in an abusive relationship before, you might be overcompensating and now you want a *beta provider type* of man.


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## Kresaera

It takes a strong man to handle a strong woman.


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## vellocet

Tomara said:


> I am a single women with a confident personality. I don't understand why men think you are pissy because you speak your thoughts. When I do so, it's not in a confrontation, it's simply my thoughts.


Speaking ones thoughts are fine. Having a strong opinion is fine.

I like a woman to speak her mind. But if she speaks it a certain way, I'm turned off.

My last girlfriend had a seething hatred for my x-wife. And while I appreciated her dislike for my X, she spoke her mind way too often and in an unattractive way. I didn't want to talk about my x-wife, but this x-gf spoke her thoughts too often and in a manner that put me off. Not because I don't dislike my x-wife either, but I just don't want to put that much energy into thinking about her. 

Anyway, not saying you are speaking your thoughts in an unattractive way, but that is the only way I'd find it a turn off or a woman being pissy is the WAY the thoughts are spoken.




> I am at a loss because men I date see me as stuck up, outspoken and a not very nice person.


Can you give an example of speaking your mind that they might think that?


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## Tomara

LM I do not fight with people unless there is good cause.

I don't harp on things that cannot be changed. 

Example of speaking my mind, guy I am seeing has friends that are very backward and more like Duck Dynasty. I just said I could not live that way and it was taken like I was thinking they were less than myself. I don't feel they are less but just different. Sorry I can't look out my door and say there's dinner tonight and go kill it. If it works for them great but not me. I don't feel like I am snobby just raised differently. Here's another, texting someone and they just let the conversation go without saying goodbye, busy, or anything so I will say ... Hey it's polite to at least say bye. Opps there I go being short!


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## Wolf1974

I've always preferred stong women as do my male and lesbian friends. What I don't prefer is when the line is crossed from having an opinion to borish controlling behavior or just plain being rude. Big difference between the two .


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## SimplyAmorous

Tomara said:


> I have honestly been listening to everyone except one. I came here because I could open up and truly needed the advice. Haters will be haters. Is there any reading material that might assist me?


This would be a wonderful book to dig into...If you want to read anything dealing with *vulnerability*.. who to let it.. who to keep out.. WHY... This is an amazing book..

The Gifts of Imperfection: Let Go of Who You Think You're Supposed to Be and Embrace Who You Are: Brene Brown: 

On the 1st line in this thread.. is a video with this Author, Brene Brown , speaking on all of this... please take a moment. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...r-its-pain-its-beauty-how-vulnerable-you.html

I have missed most posts but reading the last so many, I can see that you've opened up and the why's behind some of your more abrasive side.. I too feel learning to lean some into the feminine soften side ...will go a long way.. and it's there..it just got lost .. in all you have been through .. in trying to protect yourself.. 

When I was younger, I had an abrasive side.. I could be down right rude if I didn't watch my mouth....I am capable of it.. but intuitive enough to know when not to unleash it... but on occasion I have gotten carried away... my friends have told me I used to intimidate them.. I've gotten sweeter over the years (so I have been told).. there is always hope !

Here is something I got from a book.. in staying true to our softer side .... that we TOO can be STRONG WOMEN.. but also soft... this resonated with me a great deal.. 


Taken from *>>* Emotional Freedom: Liberate Yourself from Negative Emotions and Transform Your Life:  (chapter 4)



> It's time to discard our culture's testosterone fueled equation of sensitivity with weakness... I've had it with being told to "get a thicker skin" or that I'm overly sensitive.... uninformed remarks that my well meaning parents and perhaps yours, used to spout ... that have been laid to rest long ago. These days, I prize my receptiveness , it gentle sensuality, and will describe ways you can feel *RESILENT* enough to do the same. As a healer and a woman, I want to be penetrable to emotions.
> 
> I have no desire to become calloused, numb, or hermetically sealed to give the frightened part of me the illusion I'm safer. That would be an outright deception, crippling my intuition, eclipsing my romance with life. Of course you don't want to get overloaded. But feeling less isn't the answer...building a solid core and learning to protect you emotional accessibility are.
> 
> With these skills in place, you'll be more liberated in innumerable ways. You'll be able to respond with an open
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , to stand in other people's shoes rather than just seeing your side of any story.. Yet you'll also become a ninja at combating emotional vampires and setting clear limits. The integrative emotional style I'm suggesting for both men & women is to be* vulnerable* and strong... the union of apparent opposites...


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## Tomara

I did not tell these people anything or act different while in their presence as that would be mostly certainly be rude.


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## vellocet

Tomara said:


> Example of speaking my mind, guy I am seeing has friends that are very backward and more like Duck Dynasty. I just said I could not live that way and it was taken like I was thinking they were less than myself.


Well, I can kind of see your guy's point. If it were me, I wouldn't think too awful much about it, but at the very least I might have just raised an eyebrow.


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## Blossom Leigh

Tomara... wow, I can feel the survival mode tension. I remember the "Don't F*** with me" days... 

I have so been there done that. You haven't been out of survival mode long enough to even begin to relax. And that is ok, it's just what it is. 

I am deeply sorry for what you have been through that has turned you into a fighter/survivor and yet I am glad you have been through it because you find out how strong you are. The down side of it is it can create a hardness and sometimes we just want to be a girl. So, I get it.

Be a girl for you, no one else, until that right guy comes along.

Give yourself some time to come out of survival mode.

Cut off the dating for a while... build in some relaxation time just for you.

There is a way to keep your boundaries, keep yourself safe AND remain feminine, relaxed, without losing your confidence. Being blunt is great, bluntness with diplomacy is even better. Having assurance in your personal skills is the best. 

I have had to learn to pair my backbone with compassion. I can now remain calm, keep my boundaries, keep myself safe, but keep my dignity in tact to the degree that my feminine side remains in tact.

Except when I'm 4-wheeling in the snow  lol then it's yee haw time!

No, seriously... it's ok you got tough, you had no choice. Neither did I. Now, just refine it. There are a LOT of books in my signature link.


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## WandaJ

Well, your dating profile basically says" I need a superman who doesn't have weaknesses, and doens't need me for emotional support"..... 

Relationship is supposed to be suportive. with your words you are pushing away all the men who sometimes experience moments of doubts, hesitations, need to talk about something, etc. You are pushing away those more sensitive, because they think they are too weak (maybe) for you, so why to risk it.

You know who does not need emotional support and has no self doubts? jerks. narcisticsts. psychopaths. And these guys are answering to your dating profile. 

Re-think it.


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## Tomara

Wanda maybe you are right because those are the guys I draw. That being said I know in my heart I can't be with a beta male. I see nothing wrong with that in the least. I have a lot of people here passing judgement when they don't know what made me slide into this home base. I should take time and tell my story as it would help others see why what and where. I will post in the coping with infidelity forum. 

I will admit 100% it's easier to push someone away then let them get close and have that opening to hurt me. The only ones that are honest with me are my parents and my adult kids.

Yes everyone I have been in counseling on and off for many years. The mind and heart are pretty strong when you sit with them day after day. Just sayin....


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## bestyet2be

SurpriseMyself said:


> ...Acting outwardly tough is a first step to finding your inner strength. It is like a scab over a wound; it is meant to protect the wound so it can heal. Let the scab be and the healing occur. If she is emotionally unavailable and trying to convince herself of her own strength, then that's where she is. The scab has formed; now healing can occur without further damage....


Wow. That's beautiful.


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## bestyet2be

Tomara said:


> Is there any reading material that might assist me?


I've quoted from my favorite relationship book here.

Although I agree with some of the suggestions on how your "dating profile" might be improved, I'd observe that your having included things that *could* be interpreted negatively isn't universally bad. If you'd rather hear from men who are in the habit of interpreting things positively, or at least neutrally, not hearing those who jump to negative interpretations in no loss, right? But I'd still suggest making the changes, because you want to help your readers give you the same benefit of the doubt that you, as an increasingly positive person will give them, yes?


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## WandaJ

Tomara said:


> Wanda maybe you are right because those are the guys I draw. That being said I know in my heart I can't be with a beta male. .



You are confusing beta male with doormat, and alpha male with superman who has weaknesses at all.


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## Tomara

Nope I am not confused


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