# Wife is LD, but... different?



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Reading all these posts about LD vs HD, I haven't really been able to relate too much, so I thought I'd post my ongoing experience and see what people have to say. Bear with me, this could get long..

Background: We are in our mid-late 30's. This is my second marriage. The first was for 7 years (14 total years together, since late teens). She was LD from the start, and I didn't really know any better, being relatively inexperienced. (she was my third partner, by the age of 19). She left me for another man. I've been with my current wife for 5 years, married for a few months now. She was actually my first gf ever, I was her first bf, and we dated for 3 years back in high school. We reconnected through the magic of the internet a while after my first marriage failed.

My wife has much more experience than I do. She's likely in the 20-30 partner range, with about 4 or 5 of those being quote/unquote "actual" relationships. The rest being hookups, NSA's, one nighter's, FWB's etc. All good. Bothered me at first, because of my inexperience (4 partners total - 2 marriages and 2 FWB's. No one nighters with strangers, no drunken mistakes, etc. But does not bother me in the slightest anymore.

The first 6 months were magical. Coming from 14 years of missionary, 2-4 times a month, no initiation, etc. all of a sudden I was having actual sex with participation, a few times a week. Then it stopped happening so frequently, which was not unexpected, the honeymoon period was over, and we were comfortable with each other and all that.

Since then, it's been a few times a month, tops, and only if I initiate. It's been like that for 4 and a half years now.

NOW, the "different" part, which is making me not relate to the rest of the posts here in regards to LD/HD: the sex is still awesome, and she participates and enjoys herself. She is not faking. Typical sex is her having multiple orgasms (clitoral, vaginal, manual stimulation, g-spot, and even occasionally squirting). Occasionally we bring her toys into the mix as well. We've experimented with anal (to which she is also able to orgasm from), but we've decided it's not "our thing" as, in all honesty, it takes a while, and some discomfort, and has turned into a mood-killer on the odd occasion, so we generally don't go that route anymore. Everything else works fine, so we don't bother. She has great hands, knows what to do orally, likes all sorts of positions, etc etc etc.

So the sex is good, for her, as well as me. But it doesn't happen often, which is confusing me.

Yes, I've talked to her about this, at length. She has said that she is LD, has little to no desire for sex, and would be just fine without it. She says she has always felt that way, and that she has never truly been "horny", ever, in her life. I did inquire as to her sexual past, and how it didn't make much sense to have had as many partners as she has had, and never actually wanted sex. Her general response was that it was out of low self-esteem, which is totally believable. She was always overweight (which I realize doesn't necessarily equate low self esteem in all cases), and was raised almost exclusively by her mother, with 2 older brothers who teased her constantly growing up. She has also worked exclusively in a male-dominated career (and I mean 99% male, where it's truly rare to find a female employee in her position). Her father (who was around, and still is, but just didn't have an active role in raising her) is a "guys guy", old school working man.

So in short, I don't think she's ever had a solid female role model in her life, and identifies more with the male perspective of things than the female. She's certainly not butch, but she's hardly "feminine", either! A tomboy, I guess.

As well, she owns several toys, which she definitely uses when I'm not around. She likely uses them more times in a month than we have sex. This doesn't bother me, really, either, because sometimes we all (men AND women) just want 2 minutes, and then we're done.

So what I'm getting at is that she doesn't seem to fit the profile of every other LD person out there. What I'm seeing, from these boards especially, is that LD people just don't have any interest in sex, period, and it's a going-through-the-motions type of thing when it does happen.

My wife enjoys sex, clearly, and is not shy or cold or has any hangups. It just doesn't happen often, at all. If I didn't initiate for a month, it wouldn't happen at all, but she'd likely use her toys as she always does. Once in a great while, when I've "given up", she'll initiate, which to her means lying in bed naked when I go to bed, and then telling me she's naked. I then have to make a move on her, get her warmed up first. I DO think in those rare instances, she actually does want sex, and it's not a "well, it's been a while, I better keep him happy" type of thing. She just doesn't know how to initiate sex.

And yes, I've talked to her about that - that I would love it if she initiated by being sexy, by touching me, bringing me to the bedroom, by unzipping my pants, etc. but it hasn't resulted in anything, so far.

I've even gone so far as to ask her that in all her years, and with her number of partners, that it has always been like that for her - they've always initiated, never the other way around. She said yes. This, I've had a harder time believing, but it's also not totally unbelievable. But to use the conservative estimate of 20 partners, over 20 odd years, that she has never, ever, made the first move, I don't know.

Again, the part that confuses me about all of this is that it's not relatable to the other LD stories I've read here. When we DO have sex, she is absolutely willing to pleasure me, and she does an incredible job of it. She's no prude.

So I don't quite understand just what the hell I'm dealing with here! I am a good husband, partner, father (to step kids, I might add), I don't hound her, I spoil her on occasion, and I'm thoughtful of her needs before mine. But I'm not a "yes dear, right away dear" type of husband, and in fact, the power in the relationship is quite even, so I'm not a pushover. I don't ALWAYS take care of her needs, and I don't constantly tell her how awesome she is etc, either. She knows she's loved and appreciated, and sexy, but I don't go overboard with it, so she's not completely comfortable, which can be a bad thing for either partner (I learned this from my mistakes with the first wife). In other words, we both push each other to make sure neither of us take each other for granted.

Any suggestions? lol


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My ex was LD, but was also a good sex partner when we did have sex. This sounds like fairly typical LD to me, only she actually likes you, which some LD may not feel about their partners.

Yes, it's frustrating and makes you feel less than valued or desired if you have to always initiate (and are probably often rejected). I doubt that there's anything you can do to obtain any improvement. Even if she wants to improve, if it's her nature to be LD, she can only push herself to have more sex, but won't really want more sex.

Anyway, this may be as good as it gets for this relationship (and is better than many LD relationships, apparently), and with time is likely to get worse. Is that enough for you? Will it be enough in the future? If you can answer that question, you'll know what you should do.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My bet is she has a deep seated fear of intimacy. Her low self esteem won't allow her to be vulnerable with anyone. Her history is with hit and run contact not long term relationships. She has no idea how to connect with someone on a deeper level. It scares her so she retreats and shuts down. Its not 'safe'.

She's still LD regardless of whether she fits the typical description or not.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> My bet is she has a deep seated fear of intimacy. Her low self esteem won't allow her to be vulnerable with anyone. Her history is with hit and run contact not long term relationships. She has no idea how to connect with someone on a deeper level. It scares her so she retreats and shuts down. Its not 'safe'.


Perfect description of my wife here except for no hit and runs.

When we have sex it is indeed great but back in the beginning of the year I decided to stop playing the monthly game. She's tried to initiate more since then only to be shot down since desire once does not translate to long term more constant desire.

The last few days it has been quite funny as we're sleeping in a queen bed and are a lot closer physically (our regular bed is a king size but we are doing some cleaning and it is, ehem, out of commission) She feels very uncomfortable with how it is playing out... Well, tough luck.

Anyhow, if you see that discussions are going nowhere and that awesome sex once a month are not going to translate to awesome sex more often simply start the 180. If she's not going to put any effort into maintaining a healthy emotional connection then no point having the monthly ritual no matter how good it feels.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I have a hard time labeling anyone Low Drive, no matter how infrequently they have sex, if they masturbate with regularity. If they truly were Low Drive, they would not have the drive to masturbate either.

I think this is what you two should be discussing. Why her drive doesn't give you first right of refusal? Why she masturbates when she experiences the urge, but doesn't come to you?

Perhaps she is terribly uncomfortable with having this need to orgasm, this dull ache in her gut driving her to orgasm is the same feeling other people have that drive them to connect with their partner through sex. 

I think if you two, together, can come up with a way for her to let you know she has this urge, for her to deny herself the ability to take care of it and give that "chore" over to you, then you can recognize her more frequent desire. Then she can learn to initiate. Once she can give to you that desire and she learns you are safe and will take care of her, it will become easier and easier for her to begin to really initiate.

Then you two can explore seduction. Knowing she is experiencing the urge, you touch her, you say naughty things to her as you both wait until the kids are asleep, benidryl come in handy here (kidding!) so you can TOGETHER more from gentle seduction to direct sexual contact on a more frequent basis.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I have a hard time labeling anyone Low Drive, no matter how infrequently they have sex, if they masturbate with regularity. If they truly were Low Drive, they would not have the drive to masturbate either.


Which correlates well with what Mavash wrote.... Fear, not desire, is the motive here.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

That's actually quite bang on (no pun intended!), and I feel stupid that I didn't think of that myself. She most definitely has a hard time connecting, and it's evident in so many other ways in the relationship. Why I didn't correlate that with our sex life is beyond me 

I kind of knew that the sex thing was not necessarily related to sex itself, but that's what had me confused. Seeing that she enjoys sex when we have it, takes part in sex actively, and also satisfies her own needs by herself, made me really confused as to why she wouldn't be coming to me for it when she has the urge. As I said, it is obvious when she does have the urge (once in a while), or it's been too long for her, but her approach is not, how do you say? sexy AT ALL  I mean it's not as bad as some of you guys and women have it, but man... it's almost insulting. Like she has to control the when and how, but can't bring herself to being vulnerable enough to initiate. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.

There have been several times I can remember when I got an earful the next morning, because I missed her "signals". These signals are as obvious as a needle in a haystack. For example, if she's still up when I come to bed, that somehow means she's in the mood. She might be on her iPad, or doing sudoku, but hey, she's awake, and I'm supposed to know that that MAY mean she wants sex. If she's naked in bed (but with the blankets over her, so I can't even see), that means she's in the mood. I've actually gone to bed, kissed her good night, turned off the lights, and had her poke me and say something like "didn't you notice I'm naked?" Um, you have a blanket over you! The worst is when I'm "made aware" of it the next day, and she's unhappy that I totally missed these glaringly obvious signals  Then SHE'S the one who felt rejected... Of course, these are always pretty rare, anyway, and there have been times when I THOUGHT I was getting her signals, but was totally shot down. You women and your mind-reading expectations!



Mavash. said:


> My bet is she has a deep seated fear of intimacy. Her low self esteem won't allow her to be vulnerable with anyone. Her history is with hit and run contact not long term relationships. She has no idea how to connect with someone on a deeper level. It scares her so she retreats and shuts down. Its not 'safe'.
> 
> She's still LD regardless of whether she fits the typical description or not.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm going to disagree on this one. I see your general point, but on the subject of masturbation, it is different than sex. It has the same ultimate goal, but it is completely different. Sometimes you feel like taking the long way to the grocery store, sometimes you just want to get it over with because you're hungry. I would never expect my wife, or anybody else, to automatically come to me first simply because they have the urge to orgasm. Frankly, as a man, there are some times when I just want to get myself off quickly, and not have to do anything else, and it's probably much more common with women than it is in men (just a guess!). I mean, you guys have cool things like vibrators, that can do things, and give you sensations that no man can possibly match! We men don't quite have the selection of aids, especially ones that are better than a mouth or a vagina  In all honesty, sometimes I prefer to get myself off, anyway, as I know exactly what I want at that time, and I can do it as quickly as I want, or take as long as I want. I don't have to worry about someone else's pleasure (not that I ever mind, of course, I'm not like that) and I can do it pretty much wherever and whenever I feel like it. Same goes for women, there's no pressure of having to make sure someone else is satisfied, and it can be 30 seconds, or an hour if you feel like it.

And apart from all of that, 2 minutes with a vibrator is certainly more do-able and easier than 20 minutes, an hour, whatever, with your guy. A lot less messy, too! :smthumbup:

I would have a problem with it if that was all she did, though, and our sex life was non-existent, or non-participatory. That, I get.



Anon Pink said:


> I have a hard time labeling anyone Low Drive, no matter how infrequently they have sex, if they masturbate with regularity. If they truly were Low Drive, they would not have the drive to masturbate either.
> 
> I think this is what you two should be discussing. Why her drive doesn't give you first right of refusal? Why she masturbates when she experiences the urge, but doesn't come to you?
> 
> ...


----------



## DesertRat (May 1, 2012)

You are in my situation - albeit better (We have sex once every 6-8 weeks...i've gone 6-8 months before without). When we have sex it's always amazing and she's into it. Of course, we only ever have sex when she's int he mood - if she was the type to give it up just to keep me happy i'm sure the sex wouldn't be as great most of the time. Additionally, the first 18 months i was with my wife the sex was crazy. Multiple times per day. Even after marriage i recall a couple nights out of hundreds that i was so wiped out from work/school (full time for both) i wanted to turn her down. I would have sex anyways though becuase i wanted to please her and for her to be happy and I knew i wouldn't want to be turned down. 

Fast forward 4 years, i'm being turned down 19/20 times. Fast forward another 4 years and i never get turned down...because i never initiate any more.

Welcome to the world of celibacy. You have a couple options:

1) Find other ways to be happy and forget sex. Focurse on hobbies, kids (if you have them), career etc. This is my current approach...I have completely set sex aside. Outside of my wife it's had a tremendous affect. I'm moving up in my career, i'm more confident than ever, and other women *FAR* more attractive than my wife hit on me constantly. I've been flat out offered sex by women I work with. I've turned them all down - but I have to admit the attention feels great and is a major ego booster.

I haven't read it - but form posts on hear i suspect this is equivalent to MMSL? It's not working for my wife - she could care less about sex. Not sure if it's just with me - but i asked her once if she thought a relationship with someone new would ignite her passion and she didn't think so. She has a vibrator, but the only time it's been used in the last 5 years is when i'm with her. 

2) Get a divorce. If you have no kids yet - do it! I'd probalby have taken this route a few year sago if we hadn't had kids already.

3) Bottle it all in and become bitter, eventually you and your wife will be at each others throats constantly and you'll wind up divorcing anyways.


----------



## lovemylife (Feb 13, 2012)

alexm said:


> There have been several times I can remember when I got an earful the next morning, because I missed her "signals". These signals are as obvious as a needle in a haystack. For example, if she's still up when I come to bed, that somehow means she's in the mood. She might be on her iPad, or doing sudoku, but hey, she's awake, and I'm supposed to know that that MAY mean she wants sex. If she's naked in bed (but with the blankets over her, so I can't even see), that means she's in the mood. I've actually gone to bed, kissed her good night, turned off the lights, and had her poke me and say something like "didn't you notice I'm naked?" Um, you have a blanket over you! The worst is when I'm "made aware" of it the next day, and she's unhappy that I totally missed these glaringly obvious signals  Then SHE'S the one who felt rejected... Of course, these are always pretty rare, anyway, and there have been times when I THOUGHT I was getting her signals, but was totally shot down. You women and your mind-reading expectations!


Oh man do I recognize this. I have actually been here in the past. There was a time when I was more forward in my initiation and got turned down, tired or stressed or whatever the reason, it still comes across as a rejection. Over time, the signals get less and less obvious, for fear of getting turned down again. Even when you know that the reason for the refusal has a legitimate reason, like being tired, it still plays on a persons fear, the ego gets bruised easily.

It will take some conversations with you two to clear the air here. Building more trust, love, security and negating the fear is going to improve the situation. Sometimes we need someone to remind us that the little voice of insecurity and fear is a little liar. 

It may help to have a key word or touch or something that will be a signal to the other that you would be willing or are interested in having sex. 

Touch outside of the bedroom will help to create a stronger bond as well. Spend time snuggled up on the couch, or holding hands. Touch your partner as you walk by, give each other hugs and other small action like this. Show appreciation of your partner, and often. Tell them often that you love them.

It is amazing how much things improve when you do these things. It will transfer into the bedroom as well.


----------



## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

alexm said:


> That's actually quite bang on (no pun intended!), and I feel stupid that I didn't think of that myself. She most definitely has a hard time connecting, and it's evident in so many other ways in the relationship. Why I didn't correlate that with our sex life is beyond me
> 
> I kind of knew that the sex thing was not necessarily related to sex itself, but that's what had me confused. Seeing that she enjoys sex when we have it, takes part in sex actively, and also satisfies her own needs by herself, made me really confused as to why she wouldn't be coming to me for it when she has the urge. As I said, it is obvious when she does have the urge (once in a while), or it's been too long for her, but her approach is not, how do you say? sexy AT ALL  I mean it's not as bad as some of you guys and women have it, but man... it's almost insulting. Like she has to control the when and how, but can't bring herself to being vulnerable enough to initiate. It'd be funny if it wasn't so sad.
> 
> There have been several times I can remember when I got an earful the next morning, because I missed her "signals". These signals are as obvious as a needle in a haystack. For example, if she's still up when I come to bed, that somehow means she's in the mood. She might be on her iPad, or doing sudoku, but hey, she's awake, and I'm supposed to know that that MAY mean she wants sex. If she's naked in bed (but with the blankets over her, so I can't even see), that means she's in the mood. I've actually gone to bed, kissed her good night, turned off the lights, and had her poke me and say something like "didn't you notice I'm naked?" Um, you have a blanket over you! The worst is when I'm "made aware" of it the next day, and she's unhappy that I totally missed these glaringly obvious signals  Then SHE'S the one who felt rejected... Of course, these are always pretty rare, anyway, and there have been times when I THOUGHT I was getting her signals, but was totally shot down. You women and your mind-reading expectations!



heh heh, sounds like my wifee.....:scratchhead:


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Oh man, I do this stuff left, right and centre! I'm the one who wants to cuddle up on the couch, and is always kissing her on the cheek, or a peck on the lips, etc. I hold her hand, she rarely goes for mine. She's just not touchy-feely.

When we dated way back in high school (14 year hiatus, with me having a failed marriage, and her having several failed relationships), she was much more into that. Now, after reconnecting after all those years, she's a different woman.

As far as I KNOW, she did not have any "bad" relationships (ie. no abuse, etc.), they all just ended at one point or another.

As I said in the first post, she had a rather high number of non-relationship relationships. Things that weren't serious, that weren't designed to go anywhere, but (in my opinion) were just to have somebody around, whether it was for a few weeks or a few months. And a fair amount of one-off's.

As I said, the difference between her as a teenager and now is night and day. I suspect she became jaded over the years, and just can't be bothered anymore. But it's weird, because we were each others firsts, and for 3 years at that.

I wish I/she/we could get to the root of it, though. She's a fantastic woman and has so much to offer, but it's extremely difficult living with someone who doesn't touch, hold hands, cuddle, etc. unless it's initiated by me, first. Just like the sex, it always has to come from me. If I didn't do it, it wouldn't happen.

What I will never, ever understand is how people survive like that (on either side). A huge part of love and marriage is supposed to be about contact, closeness, and sharing things with your partner that you don't share with someone else.

Why would she (or anybody else who is like her) choose to be married, or be in a relationship, if you completely put aside the (in my opinion) ONE thing that separates a relationship with a really good friendship? I, or she for that matter, can do everything we do with anybody else that we really like. There's literally nothing I can think of that we do that I couldn't easily share with any of my close friends, man or woman.

It's just... weird.



lovemylife said:


> Oh man do I recognize this. I have actually been here in the past. There was a time when I was more forward in my initiation and got turned down, tired or stressed or whatever the reason, it still comes across as a rejection. Over time, the signals get less and less obvious, for fear of getting turned down again. Even when you know that the reason for the refusal has a legitimate reason, like being tired, it still plays on a persons fear, the ego gets bruised easily.
> 
> It will take some conversations with you two to clear the air here. Building more trust, love, security and negating the fear is going to improve the situation. Sometimes we need someone to remind us that the little voice of insecurity and fear is a little liar.
> 
> ...


----------



## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

> As well, she owns several toys, which she definitely uses when I'm not around. She likely uses them more times in a month than we have sex. This doesn't bother me, really, either, because sometimes we all (men AND women) just want 2 minutes, and then we're done.


It should bother you. If you are not completely satisfied because of how things are dwindling down to non existent - this is a HUGE problem and I highly doubt it takes her 2 minutes to get off. She gets the need to 'finish' often - it's that instead of using you, she uses her toys. There is nothing wrong with masturbation but it _should_ be frowned on if sex is becoming non existent. Whether you believe it or not, after she gets her orgasm for the day through masturbation, she's good for a while now and doesn't need you touching her. The toys win - you lose.

Other than that, she's probably not lying about never initiating. I was with a girl like that in the past, who been with a lot of guys, whoever - usually in those hook up situations - you are drunk or normally it's the guy that throws you around. She was just like your wife. Never initiated for anything. She would do little stupid things like your wife does. I left after 5-6 months off it. 

You make way to many excuses for her. You are here for a reason. She only wants it when SHE wants it and she gives you little signals to initiate it - but other than that - do no touch her. You have to take the gloves off. This situation is going to get worse - your sex life will be non existent unless you start being proactive. My girl and I have sex regularly and so do plenty of other couples. The honeymoon doesn't end until you give up and allow it to end. Sometimes, you have to put your foot down and be stern. Do you really want to live the rest of your life affection less because you do not have to. She is very comfortable in the world she has with you and if you don't stir sh*t up - you will regret it. 

It seems as she treats you like a FWB - not her lover. Just my two cents.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Part of me agrees with you, but... 

The masturbation thing is not an issue for me. As I said above, many people just want to get off, and that's it. No muss, no fuss. There's really nothing wrong with that, per se. It's certainly not a daily thing with her (I think!!), and it's not a chronic, constant thing, either (I think!!)

There are many times when the urge hits me, and I do it. I find nothing wrong with that. Sometimes I just want to do it for the pleasure, and not have to worry about all the other stuff. No reason women can't be the same way.

And I am positive that she does not "make an afternoon of it". I know that when she does it, that it IS 2 minutes, and that's that. Do I know 100% for certain? No, of course not, but I like to think I know her well enough to know that that's not her modus operandi. She's not the type to light candles, put on some sexy music, and sit in the bath tub for an hour. If I somehow how found out that that's exactly what she does, then yes, it would become a serious issue for me, but I am confident that that's not at all how she does it. The only way I would ever know that for certain is if I set up a webcam or something, but that is seriously creepy and beyond my capabilities.

How do I know she masturbates, you ask? I don't snoop, I'll say that. The toys are in her bedside table. This is also the same drawer that mismatched socks go into after laundry. So I go in there occasionally to find a match. Sometimes the toy(s) have moved to the front or back of the drawer, noticeably, sometimes they're not there at all. Occasionally she's left it in the shower. A few times I've heard her in the shower when I've come up to the bedroom for one reason or another. Once I came back home after leaving 20 minutes earlier because I forgot something, and I heard her. No big deal. I know she uses it, just as she knows I jerk off, because the lotion is getting low, or she's walked in on me, etc.

As for the rest of what you said, that just doesn't seem like it's anything more than acting out of spite. I mean that with all due respect. I'm not saying your advice is wrong, or bad, because it may very well work in some cases. But I truly believe that if I acted like that, it would not help the situation. I also don't think I'm capable of being spiteful - even if justified. I'm no pushover, "yes dear" type of husband. I stand my ground, I have my say, but I'm also quite respectful of her.

Like many of us in this situation, acting spiteful, or getting angry just generates more negative emotions towards the situation from across the table. Some people respond to that type of challenge, many do not. Or worse, if they do, it's a reflex, and it doesn't solve the long-term problem.

LD people tend to not view it as a problem, even if they are told it is, point-blank. It seems to be a very strange affliction, in that, to them, there really isn't an issue. They know their partner is unhappy, but they genuinely can't understand why. It's not a problem to them, so it shouldn't be a problem for their partner. Or even better, you get the "well, you married me" or "you don't love me for who I am?" garbage. There is usually no reasoning with them, so "punishing" them by acting in that matter really doesn't help.

Can it? Yes, sure, but I'm of the mindset that it's really a last-ditch thing to attempt, because it could be the thing that really pushes either person over the edge.

To me, it is not THAT important to take that risk. Again, when we do have sex, it's great, it really is. It's just the frequency and the extreme lack of willingness on her part. Rejection is a terrible feeling, as all of us in this position can attest to. In my case, the 20-odd times we have sex in a year are good to great, so I don't have it as bad as some others do. My issue is simply the rejection and lack of passion for me in getting to those 20 times per year.



wise said:


> It should bother you. If you are not completely satisfied because of how things are dwindling down to non existent - this is a HUGE problem and I highly doubt it takes her 2 minutes to get off. She gets the need to 'finish' often - it's that instead of using you, she uses her toys. There is nothing wrong with masturbation but it _should_ be frowned on if sex is becoming non existent. Whether you believe it or not, after she gets her orgasm for the day through masturbation, she's good for a while now and doesn't need you touching her. The toys win - you lose.
> 
> Other than that, she's probably not lying about never initiating. I was with a girl like that in the past, who been with a lot of guys, whoever - usually in those hook up situations - you are drunk or normally it's the guy that throws you around. She was just like your wife. Never initiated for anything. She would do little stupid things like your wife does. I left after 5-6 months off it.
> 
> ...


----------



## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

All I see is excuses, excuses and more excuses for her. Everything she does is fine, however, the rejection - lack of passion - and little sex is hurting you. You, my man, are not the problem - your wife is. I'm sure she's a fine lady but there are problems. You don't want to be spiteful? What do you have to lose? Have you tried everything else? 

Problems like these do not magically get better. She is programmed this way and the longer you two are together - the worse it is going to get. Wait till menopause and medicine and all that great stuff kick in as she ages. You guys are mid 30's - married for three months - you should be all over each other now. Well you are but she's not. That's a problem. Your wife is comfortable with the situation because you allow it. 

You can use other alternatives to do this - and most likely fail because nothing will happen until she is AWARE that what she is doing - is affecting you and the relationship. And you have to be stern. This isn't about spite - this is about not being room mates and having an active sexual marriage.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Okay, I do agree with you about the second part 

However, I do not make excuses for her. Because there IS no excuse for it. As I said, the times we do have sex are good to great. I can effectively rule out me as the excuse. (as in, I'm not so unattractive that I'm the problem).

What she's doing is NOT fine, however her masturbating IS fine. I'm not making excuses for her for that, because there is nothing wrong with masturbating, or using a toy to masturbate.

As I said, it if it came to light that she was doing it several times a week, and having a whole set up for it, and it lasted half an hour, or longer, then YES, totally a problem, given the lack of desire for me around here. As far as I know (and I'm confident in this), her masturbation habits are - and I'm guessing here - maybe once a week? And I'm almost positive it's only a quickie, at that. I can say that she is rarely alone in the house (there are 2 kids, as well as me, and I don't work a 9-5 job, she does. Basically, given my work schedule, I am home when she is, and if I'm not, the kids are. Yes, she is home by herself occasionally, but it's never for long, and it's rarely on a schedule that she's aware of, so even if she desired candles and soft music and a bath and the time to really have a go at it, any one of the 3 of us could walk in at any moment.)

The rest of what you said, I'll give you it. You are correct in that MY behaviour needs to change. I just don't see how being upset and otherwise taking away what I do for her can help. Trust me, I'm not Mr Happy-Go-Lucky around the house at all times, and she's acutely aware of just why I am not in the greatest of moods. I have absolutely no problem verbalizing my issues to her (almost always in a non-confrontational manner, I might add), but she's aware.

If I suddenly stop trying to initiate contact, or depriving her of the things she likes from me, I just don't see how that can help.

As I said, most LD people just don't see the big deal. She would be very likely to take my behaviour and not equate it to the reasoning behind it, or worse - get mad and distant.

As for what I have to lose? Everything. Other than this one issue, she is the woman for me. Nobody's partner is perfect, there's always one or two things that we can't stand about our partners. This happens to be hers. It sucks that THAT is her/our issue, but you can't choose what negative aspect your partner will bring to the relationship. In other words, it's not enough for me to risk losing HER, the person.

I would rather have her, with this issue, than have a lesser woman who was all over me. But at the same time, I am here, looking for help, suggestions, advice, because it IS important to me. Not end-of-marriage important, but important nonetheless.







wise said:


> All I see is excuses, excuses and more excuses for her. Everything she does is fine, however, the rejection - lack of passion - and little sex is hurting you. You, my man, are not the problem - your wife is. I'm sure she's a fine lady but there are problems. You don't want to be spiteful? What do you have to lose? Have you tried everything else?
> 
> Problems like these do not magically get better. She is programmed this way and the longer you two are together - the worse it is going to get. Wait till menopause and medicine and all that great stuff kick in as she ages. You guys are mid 30's - married for three months - you should be all over each other now. Well you are but she's not. That's a problem. Your wife is comfortable with the situation because you allow it.
> 
> You can use other alternatives to do this - and most likely fail because nothing will happen until she is AWARE that what she is doing - is affecting you and the relationship. And you have to be stern. This isn't about spite - this is about not being room mates and having an active sexual marriage.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
You are giving her more intimacy than she needs outside the bedroom. Which is why she isn't seeking more intimacy in the bedroom. 

Do less. Hug less. Initiate less affection. Radiate less love at her. Let her chase you. 




alexm said:


> Okay, I do agree with you about the second part
> 
> However, I do not make excuses for her. Because there IS no excuse for it. As I said, the times we do have sex are good to great. I can effectively rule out me as the excuse. (as in, I'm not so unattractive that I'm the problem).
> 
> ...


----------



## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

^ I agree.

Sorry I couldn't help. Hopefully, someone else can point you in a better direction. Good luck brother.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

No no, it's solid advice. The methodology just doesn't fit in my particular situation, I don't think.

The doing less outside of the bedroom, I can do, but to do it so overtly or suddenly that it radiates nothing but spite, that won't cut it with her. She is one strong woman, my wife! One of the things I love about her is that she doesn't take s**t from anyone, and this would be no different.

However, if I gradually tone it down over time... that may work.

Thanks for the advice, it really was good, and I'll totally do it, just in a manner that suits this relationship.



wise said:


> ^ I agree.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't help. Hopefully, someone else can point you in a better direction. Good luck brother.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
You are clearly a smart guy. I want to emphasize something so that you will understand the 'spirit' of this effort. The goal is to be:
- more attractive and
- less available

So let me start with a comical example of what some guys think this means (I know you don't). Sit on the couch next to the wife and ignore her. 

That is not 'less available', that is passive aggressive hostility. 

Less available means: 
- physically/spatially less present because you are openly engaged in positive activities you like (not at a bar with available women)
- you are not the one driving most of the remote communication (calls, texts), nor are you doing most of the talking or keeping the call going because you 'miss her'

More attractive: 
- Hint: your wife doesn't want you to put up with her bullshi! games wherein she claims she 'signaled you to initiate'. If she is a 'strong woman', she can give a clear message. Stop letting her be the 'strong woman who takes no prisoners', and the shy fvcking virgin who is afraid to give you a clear signal. 

But don't 'call her on it' in anger. Use humor:
- (smiling) You call THAT initiating (now you laugh). If you want me, you are going to have to put yourself out there, just like I do.

- When she rejects you, just shrug and move on. But give her some extra space for a few days. Let her come to you. She likely will. 

- If she teases you and THEN rejects, you need to be blunt. Because THAT is partly how you got here. Teasing and rejecting is a classic fitness test. And repeatedly failing it is toxic. 






alexm said:


> No no, it's solid advice. The methodology just doesn't fit in my particular situation, I don't think.
> 
> The doing less outside of the bedroom, I can do, but to do it so overtly or suddenly that it radiates nothing but spite, that won't cut it with her. She is one strong woman, my wife! One of the things I love about her is that she doesn't take s**t from anyone, and this would be no different.
> 
> ...


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> 
> 
> So let me start with a comical example of what some guys think this means (I know you don't). Sit on the couch next to the wife and ignore her.
> ...


Yep, that's how I feel about that exactly, and that's not good for anybody. 





MEM11363 said:


> But don't 'call her on it' in anger. Use humor:
> - (smiling) You call THAT initiating (now you laugh). If you want me, you are going to have to put yourself out there, just like I do..


That's solid. I have done that a few times, when I'm not THAT upset about it, but I should probably go that route all the time..




MEM11363 said:


> - When she rejects you, just shrug and move on. But give her some extra space for a few days. Let her come to you. She likely will.


This is pretty much how I handle it 75% of the time, I'd say. (the other 25% being the above, or some frustration. If I'm more consistant (ie. acting like I don't give a crap) then maybe that'll get her thinking. Is that what you're saying?

Only thing is, she never HAS come to me. Well, she has, but in the completely non-sexy way, which doesn't put me in the mood. Having your partner say "let's have sex" is a total turn off to pretty much anybody, I think. When I respond with something like "that's not sexy" or "no thanks", then I'm the bad guy. And even better, the next time I bring up sex, I get the whole garbage lines about me turning her down, or that she made an effort and I said no.

That's not a f***** effort!



MEM11363 said:


> - If she teases you and THEN rejects, you need to be blunt. Because THAT is partly how you got here. Teasing and rejecting is a classic fitness test. And repeatedly failing it is toxic.


Yeah, fully agree. Teasing and rejecting happens rarely, but it does happen, and it's unbelievably frustrating to me, and to everyone else who this happens to, man or woman. I genuinely hate this kind of behaviour, because it goes beyond sexual and turns into a power play. Every few months, I get the "later, baby" etc. line. I actually believe she is in the mood when she says that, although obviously not THAT much if it can wait. During these times, she IS acting like she's interested, but clearly not to the point of "I need you now". It's almost more insulting then the outright "no" I get.

Writing the above paragraph makes me realize I really should call that type of behaviour out for what it is - a power play. It's like she DOES want it, but on her terms, not mine, because I came to her. Maybe it makes her feel like I'm in control because I'm the one who initiated when she actually IS in the mood. So she subconsciously tells herself that she WILL do it, but only when she comes to me, and honestly thinks that she still will be in the mood later, and she can be in control. Problem is (as it always is in these situations) LD people's appetites for sex is fleeting, and by the time she's mentally ready, she's no longer sexually interested.

Oftentimes (and most of you living with an LD spouse will agree), these "later baby" episodes are completely forgotten about. I used to fall for it, and when "later" came, I would make another attempt. And she would literally say things like "oh yeah I forgot. I'm too tired" or something else similar. Nowadays, I just let it go. I will try to keep the sexual tension going throughout the day/night, I will be pleasant and affectionate, and I will go to bed at the same time. But if she doesn't make any advances or hints towards continuing what she suggested earlier on, then I just forget about it.

This does not work, either. On the odd occasion, I will gently remind her of what she said the next day (not in a combative or accusatory manner), and the response is usually something along the lines of "oh yeah" or "sorry".

Sigh.


----------



## Vernon64 (Sep 30, 2013)

My wife of 24 years had had 2 partners before we met whereas I had had about 20. Over the years, her sex drive has got less and less and less to the extent that I felt rejection and this eventually became anger. It affected me badly as I ended up seeking comfort outside the marriage. I do not think I have a particularly high sex drive.....but I do like/need sex at least a few times a week.

Luckily, our love and friendship is very strong but my infidelity has put major strain in our marriage, even though it came about due to what has been a sexless marriage for the last 4 years.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
The post below really hits the key themes of this dynamic. 

I have a thread from way back that produced a strong response. The basic theme is that each spouse 'wants' to set the emotional 'thermostat' in the house to the temperature they are most comfortable with. I used temperature as a proxy for intimacy because the analogy worked fairly well. 

In my marriage, I am the warmer partner by nature. I have simply learned not show restraint and avoid overheating the house. 

The 'warmer' partner strives to raise the emotional temperature. They do this by radiating a steady stream of loving actions/gestures. Some of those are 'warm', some are 'hot'. 

The cooler partner strives to 'lower' the temperature by discouraging you via one of more of the tactics below:
- Being less physically available to you (avoiding the house, the room you are in, the couch you are sitting on, or your touch)
- Being slow to respond to your calls, texts, cutting short quality time, etc. 
- Responding in a neutral or muted manner to your loving actions/gestures
- Rejecting your loving actions/gestures 

The warm partner frequently says: I love you
In fact, they are almost always the one who initiates the: 'I love you'. The cooler partner stops hearing 'I love you', and instead hears: 'do you love me'?

The typical kind loving husband with a higher drive, feels 'cold' when rejected. And attempts to raise the temperature by being more loving. This creates a bad downward cycle. 

The 'cooler' partner 'seems' ok with the thermostat setting in the day to day. Because even though it is hotter than they want, that heat represents a high level of stability. 

But the idea of sex makes them feel anxious, because they are already 'emotionally too warm'. 






alexm said:


> Yep, that's how I feel about that exactly, and that's not good for anybody.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

alexm said:


> So I don't quite understand just what the hell I'm dealing with here! I am a good husband, partner, father (to step kids, I might add)


She may love you, but she's not attracted to you. She is not turned on by you. I'll stop short of saying she doesn't love you, but...

She likes sex. She just doesn't like sex with you. Multiple orgasms? Research women that have orgasms when they are being raped. I'm pretty sure they don't love their rapist. Probably don't even like them. Maybe not the perfect analogy. She MAY even like sex with you when she's pressured into it. 

I know, I know. You have no doubt she loves you. So did I. Then that "magical moment" happened when I connected all of the dots and in that one fatal moment I realized her LD was actually that she hated me. Was repulsed by me. Talk about a kick in the gut. 

So why did I quote the above? Over everything else that was written here? Well, I've got to think it's got to be a little scary being a slightly overweight 30-something single mother of two(?). She hit the jackpot with you. A GREAT guy that loves her and her kids. She loves you like a brother. Lucky you.

She married for safe and not passion. She can fake it for a while, but then it's work. 

But hey, what do I know? Keep spinning your wheels with all of this other advice. But PLEASE. After a year or two of that come back and explain to people how it went when you found out the love of your life, your life partner forever, really wasn't all that into you after all. Tell people how it happens. Tell them what to look for. 

Help them. I fear it's too late for you.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> The post below really hits the key themes of this dynamic.
> 
> I have a thread from way back that produced a strong response. The basic theme is that each spouse 'wants' to set the emotional 'thermostat' in the house to the temperature they are most comfortable with. I used temperature as a proxy for intimacy because the analogy worked fairly well.
> ...


OK. That's better. Makes sense, right? Actually responding to your thread and not going off on a tangent like old K, right? Well try this:

Replace "warmer partner" with "I really love you and want you to be my life partner forever", and replace "cooler partner" with "I love you like a brother but married you for safe, not passion".

Uh-oh! I don't know about you, but I think this guy K might be onto something.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

Maybe read this thread about a guy who's wife was LD. She ended up leaving him. Lied about it.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/3088-no-idea-what-think.html

PS: I DID NOT enjoy doing that, but it had to be done.

Sorry man.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

LOL! I KNEW that would come back to bite me in the a$$!

Yeah, I know... it occurred to me that I'm living the same thing I already did, believe me.

I certainly won't make excuses and say "oh, but this is different", because at the lowest common denominator, it isn't.

BUT...

So far, it is not the same except for the amount of sex. So far, that is the only commonality between my ex and my current. Whether they end up at the same place is TBD. It might very well, however I don't envision it that way.

Without seeming overly desperate to "prove" that they are two different scenarios, there are (so far) nothing similar between the two experiences. My ex was 16, and I was 18 when we got together. We married very young (22 and 24). She had a prior history of sexual abuse, and yes, I was "safe" and I paid attention to her in the proper way, unlike everyone else she had dated. To her, I was unlike every other boy/man she had ever known and/or been with. And yes, in the end, it turned out that by the time she hit 30, she realized that she was settling and was not happy. I don't begrudge her for that. Sex, in that relationship, WAS out of necessity, and for her feeling that it was something she had to do. And with a partner she did not have any sexual attraction to. It ended (as you probably read) with her taking the bad route to happiness in her life, which is the only thing I do hold a grudge towards her about. I gave her my entire life up to that point, and she did not provide me the decency of sitting down and talking about her feelings, or lack thereof. As you likely read, she turned her crap onto me, making me the scapegoat for her mistake, and she hurt me very very badly.

My current partner is much more upfront and mature. Seeing as how we got together in our early/mid 30's, and we both had been around the block, we know where each of us stand in our lives.

Yes, I actually do believe that I am a safe choice for her, however not at all in the same way(s) as my ex. Is it ideal, if that's the case? No. But you have to understand that if I went into this, or any other relationship after my ex-wife, I could not be jaded and view every little similarity as a possible red flag. I'd be alone for the rest of my life, every time a woman said or did something that my ex might have done, or said to me in the past.

On a side note, I think it's important to mention that my wife has no shortage of interest from other men, including those that know she has children. Yes, she's plus sized (barely. Size 12-14), but she's very curvy, and she's taller than average for a woman. Being "not skinny" is not a detriment to her, as it suits her very well, and she's lucky in that regard. So it's definitely not a case of me being the only one who shows her attention, or was interested in her when she was single (and even now that she's taken!)

When we first got (back) together, 5-ish years ago, the sex was there, several times a week. Though it was always me being the initiator, she was definitely into it. The sex itself has not changed one bit. Just the frequency. It is still fantastic for the most part, and I can't think of one time, literally, that it wasn't at least good for both of us. Honestly. And she's no faker. When we do have it, she IS into it, every single time.

With my ex wife, I can probably think of maybe 5 times throughout 14 years where she was into it, and even at that, it didn't end up being fantastic. Never had mind blowing sex with my ex wife. Almost always have mind blowing sex with my current wife. Just happens 2 or 3 times a month, total.

As I may have mentioned above, I have spoken to my wife about her sexuality, in a non-confrontational manner, always. I believe her when she says she's never pursued sex in her life. Her partners always came to her. She has a common personality, in that when you are pursued, it feels good, and it's always been more about the being wanted aspect for her. She admits that. Therefore, she ended up with the number of partners she has had, because it felt good to be wanted, and also that she never viewed sex as a sacred thing between two people who love each other. This is fine, and very common, and I have nothing negative to say about it. That is not how *I* view sex (or at least I didn't after I matured), and that is how she's always viewed it. So throughout the course of her life, she only ever said no when the man was unattractive. And that's okay. It was about being wanted, and little else.

On that note, her last relationship before we got together, they did not have a lot of sex either. She has told me that he was not interested in her satisfaction, and that it was almost always a 5 or 10 minute affair. She would orgasm (luckily she's not hard to get off), but that was it. And he would bug her, and when rejected, he would get mad. In the end, it was what caused her to leave him. Because the frequency was not there, he eventually accused her of cheating, which turned the relationship into a "where are you going, when are you coming back, who are you going with?" thing constantly, every time she went somewhere without him. He'd even show up wherever it was she said she was going on occasion. For her 30th birthday, he threw a surprise party for her, but only women were invited. My wife works with 99% men, and many of her friends are male. None of her male friends were invited. So he equated her lack of drive as a sign that she was cheating.

She has told me that she has had this lack of drive with all of her relationships. She's had 3 or 4 longer ones before me, and she tells me that ours is no different when it comes to the bedroom. I believe her. The difference is, according to her, that I actually know what I'm doing, and I pay attention to her. She says she has never had multiple orgasms before me. I believe her. She says she has never owned a sex toy before me. I believe her. (I was the one who suggested she try one, several years ago.) She says that before buying sex toys, with me, that she never masturbated. I believe her.

Now, for my ex-wife, she never got anything out of sex. She had her first orgasm while she was with me (with the help of a vibrator, but still...). Mind you, she was 16 when we met, and she had had 4 other partners before me. According to her, she had the standard "teenage sex", which is inexperienced and focused on the boy/man. Even when she used her vibrator on herself, it would take her 20 minutes, 1/2 an hour to get anywhere. She would often give up. I believed her when she told me this, as it didn't seem like something she would lie about.

I strongly believe that now, 5 years after she moved on to her new man, she is probably very likely right where she was when she was with me, and he's probably in the same boat. Who knows, though. Maybe this guy got her to really open up sexually, and she's not at all the same person she was before. If I was a betting man, I would doubt it very much, though. I think my ex wife's sexual personality is ingrained in her. That's not to say that if *I* couldn't do it, nobody else could, I'm not that egotistical, but it didn't seem to me like it was anything but herself that was the cause of her sexual issues. She had other mental issues that likely didn't help, but perhaps she's overcome those in the past few years.

In any case, I genuinely believe that my current wife is just not a sexual person, even if the sex we do have is good, and she participates. Her prior experiences have allowed her to "know what to do" in the bedroom, and she's good at it. She's no cold fish. When she gets going, she wants it, she participates, she's "hungry". The problem is, it takes getting into the actual act for her to let herself go like that. Seriously, it's weird.

When we do have sex, she certainly doesn't act like I'm unattractive. My ex wife did. My ex wife would always want it from behind, likely so she didn't have to look at me. Her idea of foreplay was to lie next to me and spend about 2 minutes stroking me. No kissing. No touching anywhere else. Just get me hard, then she'd let go, and turn over. Or if I was lucky, lie on her back. The whole thing would be over in less than 5 minutes.

My current wife knows what foreplay is. We take turns. She does oral, she receives oral. She touches me and kisses me. It's passionate. It's different every time. Sometimes it's 10 or 15 minutes, sometimes it's 45. She always, always, always orgasms at least 3 times. She squirts (sorry if that's too graphic). Sometimes the vibrator comes out and that's added to the mix. Seriously, it's like porn sometimes.

But the bottom line is that she never comes to me for this. Never initiates, even for pity sex. I know that when I come onto her, that rare time that it ends up with actual sex, she's not thinking "I'm horny", she's thinking "I better say yes this time, it's been a while". She's awkward and unsexy, and she doesn't treat me like she needs or wants me. But once we get going, there she is, and can't keep her hands (or tongue) off me.

The more I've thought about it, the more I think there's just a mental block about it all. It's not that she doesn't enjoy sex, it's just that she can't allow herself to SHOW that she enjoys it. She can't initiate, because somehow that would make me think she's dirty or something. As I've said in this thread, she's a very strong woman, though I think she tries too hard to be TOO strong and not show ANY weakness or vulnerability. I genuinely believe this is where she's at. She's the type of personality who doesn't take help, or handouts or charity from anyone. She's made her own way in life, and got by without the help of anyone else, and she's too proud. I believe that her past relationships have taught her (rightly or wrongly) that men are the vulnerable ones, especially when it comes to sex, and that her holding back her sexuality is the ultimate power. And I don't think it's a conscious thing on her part. She has the power to dictate something like this to us men. She knows that when she wants it, she can get it, but when we want it, she can say no. I honestly believe that, subconsciously, this is why she doesn't say yes all that often. Also, you women can turn it off much more easily then men...! Perhaps her feeling sexual makes her feel vulnerable, and she doesn't like that. And when she gets the urge, and it happens that I'm not around, well hello vibrator! 2 minutes, and the vulnerability is gone. Whereas if I AM around, and she's feeling the urge, that means "lowering herself" and coming to me.

That was long, sorry...





MrK said:


> Maybe read this thread about a guy who's wife was LD. She ended up leaving him. Lied about it.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/3088-no-idea-what-think.html
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
When your current wife says: let's have sex

Do you ever say: sounds great - and then do it?

If so, does she get really into it in the normal way?

You want her to initiate. So when she is blunt like that, you really ought to go with it. 




alexm said:


> LOL! I KNEW that would come back to bite me in the a$$!
> 
> Yeah, I know... it occurred to me that I'm living the same thing I already did, believe me.
> 
> ...


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

90% of the time, yes. Because I know it will be good. Sometimes I just don't want to be led like that, and her bluntness just doesn't get me in the mood. Being asked, outright, does not make me feel like she wants to, rather it makes me think that she figures it's about time we did, and she's not opposed to it.

As for the normal way, yes and no. She won't kiss me first, she'll always wait for me to do something to her. I've literally said, sure, let's go, laid down on the bed, and waited for her to make a move. Never happens. It's not a game I'm interested in playing, so I haven't done that in a long time.

So yes, I take what I can get. Which is 2-3 times a month. If I didn't indicate to her in any way that I needed it, it would be 0 times a month, I promise you.

Again, I do not understand. She enjoys it, is into it, and participates when it happens.




MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> When your current wife says: let's have sex
> 
> Do you ever say: sounds great - and then do it?
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
What do you do to create excitement or tension? 

How much time do you spend going out with your friends, without her? 

How often do you notice her being selfish and sharply call her on it? How often does she 'push boundaries'? 

How would she respond to a playful and rough wrestling match? Not sex, just playful conflict.




alexm said:


> 90% of the time, yes. Because I know it will be good. Sometimes I just don't want to be led like that, and her bluntness just doesn't get me in the mood. Being asked, outright, does not make me feel like she wants to, rather it makes me think that she figures it's about time we did, and she's not opposed to it.
> 
> As for the normal way, yes and no. She won't kiss me first, she'll always wait for me to do something to her. I've literally said, sure, let's go, laid down on the bed, and waited for her to make a move. Never happens. It's not a game I'm interested in playing, so I haven't done that in a long time.
> 
> ...


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Your first question is a tough one to answer. My wife is not the romantic type, and never has been (remember, we dated for 3 years when we were teenagers). Flowers and all that stuff isn't her thing. So what do I do? Everything else that is expected of me, and more. I am the cook of the house, I clean, I do laundry, I taxi the kids around. She does all of that, too, but it's a good split of who does what (actually, she doesn't cook...!) I tell her I love her, I think of her needs, I tell her she's beautiful and otherwise compliment her.

As for tension, nothing, because there is nothing I can do to create sexual tension in her. It doesn't matter what I do, or what I wear, or what I say to her. She's appreciative, but it does nothing for her sexually.

Both of us are more or less homebodies, but we do spend time away from each other. I play sports, so I'm out of the house several times a week for that, a few hours at a time. She's off with her friends 1-3 times a month, with the odd girls weekend every few months. Shopping trips and the like.

She is selfish at least once a day, from my perspective. One way or another. When it's over the line, I always call her on it. When whatever it is she's doing or saying doesn't have any consequences, I let it go. Likely no more than I am, and likely no more than all of us can be.

I don't quite understand the wrestling match question. We're in our late 30's, so she probably wouldn't be into it?  But she's competitive, so she'd probably win. 



MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> What do you do to create excitement or tension?
> 
> How much time do you spend going out with your friends, without her?
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
What happens when you call her on selfish behavior? You might try a sharp smack on her butt while saying 'selfish girls get spanked'. 

Is she physically stronger than you are? Why don't you think a playful wrestling match would be fun? My W and I are 50, very fit and we have them. Our rules are skewed to offset the large difference in muscle mass between us. 
- She can strike, I cannot 
- She can use fist, elbow, knees, feet and fingernails
- I get to block, wrestle and if I pin her she gets spanked

She cannot bite (though she doesn't fully accept this rule), or strike at eyes or throat. 

Your wife wants a good scuffle more than you realize. 

UOTE=alexm;4611857]Your first question is a tough one to answer. My wife is not the romantic type, and never has been (remember, we dated for 3 years when we were teenagers). Flowers and all that stuff isn't her thing. So what do I do? Everything else that is expected of me, and more. I am the cook of the house, I clean, I do laundry, I taxi the kids around. She does all of that, too, but it's a good split of who does what (actually, she doesn't cook...!) I tell her I love her, I think of her needs, I tell her she's beautiful and otherwise compliment her.

As for tension, nothing, because there is nothing I can do to create sexual tension in her. It doesn't matter what I do, or what I wear, or what I say to her. She's appreciative, but it does nothing for her sexually.

Both of us are more or less homebodies, but we do spend time away from each other. I play sports, so I'm out of the house several times a week for that, a few hours at a time. She's off with her friends 1-3 times a month, with the odd girls weekend every few months. Shopping trips and the like.

She is selfish at least once a day, from my perspective. One way or another. When it's over the line, I always call her on it. When whatever it is she's doing or saying doesn't have any consequences, I let it go. Likely no more than I am, and likely no more than all of us can be.

I don't quite understand the wrestling match question. We're in our late 30's, so she probably wouldn't be into it?  But she's competitive, so she'd probably win. [/QUOTE]


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I don't know what to say to this...

But this really doesn't sound like this is our thing, I guess. Not sure what it has to do with anything, either? :scratchhead:



MEM11363 said:


> Alex,
> 
> Your wife wants a good scuffle more than you realize.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

All right, I'm going to blast you Mr K.

I read this again, and this time, I saw incredible negativity and I even read a little bit of hatred towards women in this. You may disagree, that's your issue.

You have linked an ancient post to this, about a previous marriage. You had your reasons, as you jumped to the conclusion that I am re-living my past marriage. I can see why you think that, I really do. Although the only similarity is the frequency of sex. Not even the quality, just the frequency. Otherwise, these are two incredibly different people, with absolutely nothing else in common, I can promise you that.

At the end of the day, my wife is LD, and that is that. My ex wife could have been LD, who knows, but it became clear to me after it was over, that that was not the case, and that she just didn't love me. End of story. My current wife loves me, there is no doubt about that. She enjoys sex, there is no doubt about that.

What my post was intended to be about was: why, if she enjoys it, does it happen so infrequently? That's it, that's all. I'm sure it's not common, but it's likely happened to other people.

The simple fact that we have GOOD sex, is clear to me that she does not find me repulsive or unsexy. She is not grossed out by it, or my body, or by doing it with me. Unless she is an Oscar winning actress.

The fact that she does not want sex as frequently as I do, does not mean that she doesn't love me. What it does mean, to me, is that she doesn't tie the two together, which is not healthy. You can chalk that up to her past history (which is also not "bad" or uncommon. She is/was not a *****. Having 20 or 30 partners by your mid-30's does not mean you're a ***** (man OR woman). Was she easy on occasion? Sure. But that is also not uncommon. If you've been alone for a while, and somebody hits on you, then what's the big deal? For some people, this type of sex is about the sex, for others, it's about feeling wanted, or just being close to someone, anyone. Add in alcohol, and you don't have that conscience on your shoulder anymore. No. Big. Deal. What she, or anyone else, does in their past is not an indicator of what they are in the present.

But what I'm getting from you is that because of this, this and this, then she MUST be that. It is clear that you went through your own hell, and that is the way it turned out. That does not mean that if my issue is similar, then it must be the same thing. That is making an assumption based upon your prior experiences.

I have read many things here that mirror my ex wife and my marriage very much, but I don't believe I've ever casually mentioned it to somebody, if I even bothered to respond at all. I certainly didn't read someone else's post and tell them that they should get the hell out, and this is exactly what I went through, so that has to be what they are going through.

I'm sorry, but I really do see a lot of hatred coming from you. I likely would have left this all alone, however you have now TWICE, dug into my past posts and reposted them under two completely different threads that I've been involved in, including comments like "this guy has it bad, I feel for him" and other BS.

I know nothing about you personally, but if you talk to people in real life how you talk to them here, then god help them.

I DO appreciate all the solid, informed and non-judgmental advice I've been getting here. This place is great, in general. Some of the replies have been a little wacky, but even they have had their merits. I am not saying yours is worthless because I disagree with them, I'm saying the approach has been out of line, and borderline creepy/stalkerish.



MrK said:


> She may love you, but she's not attracted to you. She is not turned on by you. I'll stop short of saying she doesn't love you, but...
> 
> She likes sex. She just doesn't like sex with you. Multiple orgasms? Research women that have orgasms when they are being raped. I'm pretty sure they don't love their rapist. Probably don't even like them. Maybe not the perfect analogy. She MAY even like sex with you when she's pressured into it.
> 
> ...


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I didn't say she doesn't love you because she doesn't like sex as much as you. I said she doesn't love you because she has no interest in doing anything about it.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Maybe she's afraid of change? Maybe she's afraid of showing vulnerability? There could be a whole host of other reasons why.

We can't generalize and say that she doesn't love me because she doesn't, or hasn't, changed. Or hasn't changed YET.

I don't disagree with your statement, it's crossed my mind, and I've even called her on that (and it made her very upset). But you can't generalize like that. That's **** advice, and if given to the wrong person, could affect somebody's life, or lives.

I'm beginning to wonder if you're just trolling me now, trying to get my back up. If that's what you're doing, it's working. Congratulations. 



MrK said:


> I didn't say she doesn't love you because she doesn't like sex as much as you. I said she doesn't love you because she has no interest in doing anything about it.


----------



## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

I see a lot of parallels in our lives. Before our conversations got toxic, I posted that I feel bad for you. I meant it. We have very similar problems.

You've been on this board since 2008, but only have 57 posts. I wonder, do you read a lot of other threads. Women falling out of love with their husbands is an epidemic. And most of the husbands don't know it. And LD is a MAJOR indicator of this.

I'll leave you alone now. I truly hope for the best for you.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm sorry, I don't. My wife is LD, that's pretty much it. We're working on it, in a productive and mature manner. No distrust, no anger (a little bit of frustration occasionally), and no criticism or accusations.

The reason I disagree with your viewpoint, is that your answer is to generally be mistrusting and do things like have her tailed by a private eye. I believe you are reading into a lot of this, and connecting it with your own life. And you are going about it in a hostile manner, which is not helpful, or appreciated.

I am really not as miserable as you are making me out to be. Over all, I am quite happy with my life, and my marriage. There are one or two things that I came here to seek advice on, and that is that. Nobody is perfect, and nobody is the perfect husband or wife. I don't expect perfection, or for my wife to do everything I ask, or to follow orders.

My wife does not hate me. She does not resent me. She loves me, and it is obvious to me in ways that I can not describe on an internet forum. It is lacking in the -frequency- of sex only, not the quality or passion. If it was once or twice a month and was boring and vanilla and was forced (as it was with my ex wife), then I would feel differently.

Low drive doesn't mean NO drive.

Lack of initiation doesn't mean she doesn't WANT sex. Or WANT sex with ME. Or that she doesn't love me. Lack of initiation can mean that she's not comfortable, or doesn't know how, to express herself in that manner. That may seem stupid to lots of us, myself included, but not everybody is as emotionally comfortable as the next. Not everybody has the means to allow themselves to be in a vulnerable position like that. Expressing to someone else that they NEED something from them is vulnerability. Not all people are capable of expressing to others that they NEED something.

This is apparent to me in her every day life, as well, not just via sex with her husband. She is not the type of woman to use her sexuality to achieve things (ie. the proverbial "bat my eyelashes") Everything she's achieved in her life has been through her own will to succeed, and that includes, but is not limited to, her career. As I said, she is in a VASTLY male dominated field, and she had to deal with sexism like you wouldn't believe to get to where she is. And she got there by constantly having to prove that she was capable, all the while dealing with sexist remarks and all the other stuff that goes along with it. She is literally the only female in her position in this field in the entire province where we live.

She obviously has issues with intimacy, and although some of that can be attributed to me, much of it can be attributed to her. Her upbringing, her previous relationship, even her work situation.

She is the daughter of a "man's man", very old school, very much of the belief that women stay home and manage the house, and men go to work, and therefore have all the power.

She is the only woman in her immediate family, apart from her mother.

She does not show vulnerability, ever. Is this healthy? No. Is this healthy in our relationship? No.

Does this mean she must be a cheat? Absolutely not.

We are working on these issues, which we BOTH believe to be interconnected. She is having a hard time, as it's a complete reversal of how she has always been, and that's not easy to just switch off. I remind her of how she's acting, and that it's not helping us, and 9 times out of 10, she'll stop and think about it, and agree. But old habits die hard.

I have told her time and time again that she can, and should, look at me in a different way. She can trust me, and be vulnerable in front of me. If she wants something from me, she does not have to be "manly" to get it, and I will not view it as weakness. This is where we are at now.

So, you see why me "putting my foot down" and establishing the law, and otherwise exercising my authority will not work with her. It would have the opposite effect, guaranteed.

And hiring a private eye is not even something I would do as a last resort. She is not my possession, and she is not something I need to keep an eye on. Apart from that, I have no reason to not trust her, even though some of you are reading into this as though I should.

More importantly, we both trust each other enough to bring up any issues we may have with each other, rather than holding it in, and getting to the point of infidelity. If either of us are unhappy with our marriage, we will talk about it, rather than act out, and use our perceived (or real) slight to justify something such as cheating.

I honestly believe that there are two types of cheaters out there. 

The ones who will cheat no matter how good their marriage is. They are rare, but out there. They are the ones who feel nothing is good enough, no matter how good it is. It could always be better. They could be people with such incredibly low self esteem that they simply can't get enough of other people paying attention to them. They might also be sex addicts.

And the ones who don't use in communication with their SO's. They could be emotionally damaged, or they don't feel comfortable with their partner enough to talk to them. This could be their fault, or it could be their partners fault. But they use this is justification for their actions.

You go outside the marriage for a reason, is what I'm saying. It almost always comes down to self-esteem, or self-worth. It's rarely, if ever, simply about sex. And if it's something (which it often is) that can be communicated to your partner, then it should be. Marriages fail because of communication. Both parties have culpability when marriages fail, though the % of blame does not have to be 50/50. It is rarely, if ever, one single person's fault for a failed marriage. I can blame my ex wife all I want, but it could be 5% my fault, or 25% my fault. It is a partnership, which is not always split 50/50. The person on the end of a failed marriage needs to accept some blame, no matter how small it actually is. For example, I ALLOWED my ex wife to treat me the way she did. Is that something I feel shame for doing? No. And I shouldn't. I allowed myself to love her unconditionally, and she took advantage. I am not doing the same in my current situation, however I am not over reacting by having her tailed by a hired detective. There is a balance. I did not find that balance my first time around, I am hoping to find that balance this time.

I am doing whatever I can to keep the communication open and healthy with us, so as to make sure I am providing what she needs from me, and to feel comfortable in doing so. I am working with her to develop the same trust and intimacy with me that I show for her, so that she can be fulfilled in most or all of the ways in which she requires.

Problem is, she's not there yet. She's a brick wall, but every now and again, one of those bricks falls out, and she doesn't put it back. Eventually the wall may crumble, and (I hope), she'll realize that the wall wasn't necessary to begin with.





MrK said:


> I see a lot of parallels in our lives. Before our conversations got toxic, I posted that I feel bad for you. I meant it. We have very similar problems.
> 
> You've been on this board since 2008, but only have 57 posts. I wonder, do you read a lot of other threads. Women falling out of love with their husbands is an epidemic. And most of the husbands don't know it. And LD is a MAJOR indicator of this.
> 
> I'll leave you alone now. I truly hope for the best for you.


----------



## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

Alex, have you guys considered going into PST?

I honestly think it could help you both.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I discovered this board when my ex wife left. As you've read from that 5 year old post, I did not know what had happened, and I sought solace and advice. Throughout that post, things came to light about my ex wife, and I updated that thread as I found out more. It did not end up well. I believe my last update on that thread was about me finding somebody else, eventually. And that person turned out to be my now wife.

I did not come back here after that, because I was in a good place. Technically I still am, compared to how I was 5 years ago.

It occurred to me that the issue I am going through right now could be addressed here, so I came back.

I otherwise don't spend a lot of time here. I lurked for a few months, learned what LD is all about, read about some other people's experiences and what they're going through, and although I did see some similarities, I also thought my situation was different than most of theirs. Hence the title of this thread.

I was just looking to see if anybody else was in the same boat in terms of LD spouse but good sex, complete with passion. I genuinely wanted to know if this was a "thing", were the frequency was low, but the sex was good or great.

I was just really shocked at how many people here jumped to "she's cheating on you dude" territory. I found it presumptuous if not outright disconcerting.

I am not saying it's not a possibility, I just said that that's not why I came here. I had no suspicions, and I still don't. To some of you, this is naïve. That's your own past that is telling you this, not mine.



MrK said:


> You've been on this board since 2008, but only have 57 posts. I wonder, do you read a lot of other threads. Women falling out of love with their husbands is an epidemic. And most of the husbands don't know it. And LD is a MAJOR indicator of this.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

She sounds an awful lot like my wife. I don't think she is the chasing type. 

Less hugs and less affection will only mean less hugs and less affection.


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Like I said, your wife sounds a lot like mine. 

Doesn't show any affection outside the bedroom. LD, but loves sex when it actually happens. 

Right down to the put on lingerie or get into bed naked, but doesn't let me know and then is upset the next morning that I didn't see it. What this results in is me 'checking' every night. Which means I roll over to hug her to see if she is naked or wearing something sexy. 99% of the time she isn't and gets pissed that I hug her, "It is very late!" "I was just about asleep." etc. Rejection isn't fun, but if you don't try it never (and I mean never) happens.

You say it isn't a major issue for you, but I have lived it for 25 years. It gets to you. Eventually you feel like you are alone. That your partner knows your needs and knows what you want but doesn't care. Isn't capable of showing her love for you.

When she does give in and 'allow' sex, yes she likes it, but it is because she is horny. Not because of her love for you. Just because the toys got boring and she needed a real person. But it feels like it has nothing to do with you. You could be any person with a tongue or hard [email protected]

I am not saying your wife cheats. I don't believe my wife has ever cheated. But after 25 years, with a dynamic like you are living. Eventually you feel like you are nothing to your wife.


----------



## testr72 (Jan 15, 2013)

DesertRat said:


> You are in my situation - albeit better (We have sex once every 6-8 weeks...i've gone 6-8 months before without). When we have sex it's always amazing and she's into it. Of course, we only ever have sex when she's int he mood - if she was the type to give it up just to keep me happy i'm sure the sex wouldn't be as great most of the time. Additionally, the first 18 months i was with my wife the sex was crazy. Multiple times per day. Even after marriage i recall a couple nights out of hundreds that i was so wiped out from work/school (full time for both) i wanted to turn her down. I would have sex anyways though becuase i wanted to please her and for her to be happy and I knew i wouldn't want to be turned down.
> 
> Fast forward 4 years, i'm being turned down 19/20 times. Fast forward another 4 years and i never get turned down...because i never initiate any more.
> 
> ...


Im in the same situation, been married 8 years now. Wife is LD, we only have sex 1 a month. We recently talked about this and I even wrote her a letter about this problem, , I threatened to leave as well, things did improve a bit but its just pity sex.

I get rejected all the time, Im a fit and attractive guy that women find attractive. its very hurtful, Im a nice guy but wife doesnt
want me /desire me sexually.
We have 2 wonderful kids at home otherwise i would most likely left by now.

If you cant bring yourself to leave one option would be to get together with a call girl....thats one option that will save one from being bitter and angry inside.


----------



## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

testr72 said:


> Im in the same situation, been married 8 years now. Wife is LD, we only have sex 1 a month. We recently talked about this and I even wrote her a letter about this problem, , I threatened to leave as well, things did improve a bit but its just pity sex.


Pity sex is better than no sex. You deserve it. However it may be pitiful that in her mind that she may have fooled herself that you cant get it elsewhere.

Mentally she knows she granted access to you and you know that you recieved it. It's better than her knowing she doesn't "have to do it and won't", because when you get to that point your done.



testr72 said:


> I get rejected all the time, Im a fit and attractive guy that women find attractive. its very hurtful, Im a nice guy but wife doesnt
> want me /desire me sexually.


Happens to alot of people. Sometimes it was the thrill of the hunt, thrill of the chase. Once you've been snared the excitement is gone. She doesn't have to do anything anymore. What difference does it make her? Her bills are still going to be paid and she's still going to be taken care of.

Plus she lives with you every day, knows your a human, knows your $hit stinks.



testr72 said:


> We have 2 wonderful kids at home otherwise i would most likely left by now.
> 
> If you cant bring yourself to leave one option would be to get together with a call girl....thats one option that will save one from being bitter and angry inside.


Would a call girl make you feel better than a friend who wants to be there for you in the intimate aspect. For me it would not make me feel better, but after a prolonged period of no-sex a call girl would be better than nothing and maintain my sexual function.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

There we go, that's what I was wondering - if there was somebody else out there with this issue!

Okay, so I'm not alone! Wohoo! (I think? lol)

But wow, 25 years... that's rough.

So, I think you may have nailed it. I think I touched on that above, that sex and intimacy are being separated. I have no idea how to get her to put the two together, though... argh





SadSamIAm said:


> Like I said, your wife sounds a lot like mine.
> 
> Doesn't show any affection outside the bedroom. LD, but loves sex when it actually happens.
> 
> ...


----------



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

alexm said:


> There we go, that's what I was wondering - if there was somebody else out there with this issue!
> 
> Okay, so I'm not alone! Wohoo! (I think? lol)
> 
> ...


My thoughts (and they are only thoughts as I haven't been able to solve this either) are that there isn't anything you can do. Either she doesn't love you and so the only sex you get is when she is horny or she does love you but has an issue with intimacy. 

For my wife, I believe it is that she loves me but has issues with intimacy. My mistake was letting it go on so long. I should have called her on it. Instead I keep jumping through hoops trying to make her happy so that she will care about my need for physical touch/sex. Everytime I start to do what she is asking, she puts up something else that is wrong.


----------



## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

My wife's explanation is that she doesn't think about sex like I do or even remotely close to that. She may even be in the mood during the day but by the evening, she gets tired and it leaves her mind. So she needs to be nudged a little to get back into it mentally, let alone physically. 

Once we start off, she's fine and the sex is usually mind-blowing. 

But the pre includes the back scratching and all of that. So she needs a bit more than just starting off right away with the foreplay. 

I have no problem doing that stuff and enjoy it, but it almost males it feel like I have to work for sex instead of it being a mutual enjoyment.


----------



## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

When she does say "Let's have sex" have you tried saying "OK, but you have to do everything I say" and then direct her in the kind of thing you would actually like her to do as a prelude? Rather than just telling her that is a pretty unsexy way of initiating.

Women can feel very, very self-conscious about initiating, especially if they think there is any risk at all of criticism. Like being told their approach is unsexy.

Also, you are at least in the position of knowing that if sex happens she enjoys it. That has got to be better than her enduring duty sex. So why not initiate whenever you want it?

I am HD but lost my drive totally for a while, largely due to a LD husband who appeared to be just going through the motions on birthdays and Christmas. I would initiate but got tired of rejection. So I do get where you are coming from but our marriage had a lot of other issues as well and the intimacy just wasn't there in the end.

We've turned things around recently and my drive is back in spades (probably to do with being in my forties). I have just decided to live with the fact that I do most of the initiating and insist that he plays along. I'd much rather he just ravish me every now and again but it ain't gonna happen. 

Of course if you can stick it out until she hits her forties maybe she'll surprise you!

Good luck.


----------

