# "Tomorrow evening then..."



## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Some of you have been kind enough to read my 'I'll tickle your willy tomorrow evening' thread...I have really appreciated your comments...some of which have been very helpful indeed...Which is what TAM is all about; helping/advising people but its also a forum in which to 'vent your frustrations'.

Last night I went to bed at about 10.30pm, my wife followed about 15 mins later. We both lay there reading our books. At about 11.30 I closed my book, gave my wife a 'peck' said good night and switched my light off.
"Oh! Are you going to sleep? I was going to offer you a bonk".

I didn't say or do anything (actually, I couldn't be bothered to) but I did lie there wondering.... The children went back to school mid-afternoon so we had been alone in the house since, we had had a very late night the night before (dinner party so not to bed till nearly 3.00am)...We had both been lying there reading for 45 minutes.... If she was going to instigate something why didn't she do it earlier??...

Suddenly the penny dropped...:smthumbup: It was exactly the same as 'I'll tickle your willy tommorow night' (which she didn't).
She 'offers' sex at a time when she knows full well that I am not going to take her up on it...so that no one (me or our counsellor) can 'blame' her for never instigating...and she doesnt have to do that awful immoral, dreadful thing called 'have sex or make love'.
"But in the past 10 days I have tried to instigate it twice but he has turned me down"....
Well, if you really mean it, why not try instigating at a better time? When you got into bed last night, why didn't you take your husbands book away, cuddle up to him and say 'I'd really like to make love to you'... instead of lying next to him reading for 40 mins then offering him a 'bonk' as he turns his light out?

No one can honestly say that 'Oh! I was going to offer you a bonk' as you turn over and switch your light off is a come on! :rofl:


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## lucky_guy (Jan 23, 2011)

jezza said:


> Some of you have been kind enough to read my 'I'll tickle your willy tomorrow evening' thread...I have really appreciated your comments...some of which have been very helpful indeed...Which is what TAM is all about; helping/advising people but its also a forum in which to 'vent your frustrations'.o
> 
> Last night I went to bed at about 10.30pm, my wife followed about 15 mins later. We both lay there reading our books. At about 11.30 I closed my book, gave my wife a 'peck' said good night and switched my light off.
> "Oh! Are you going to sleep? I was going to offer you a bonk".
> ...


So did you take her up on the offer???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lucky_guy (Jan 23, 2011)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Jezza,

I read your original post with interest, and this one as well... I can definitely feel your pain, unfortunately.

In my case, I'd get the "can we do this tomorrow/Thursday/whenever"... But as the song/movie goes, tomorrow never came, and neither did I. Eventually, the rejection built up tons of frustration and resentment.

In related news, I picked up the keys to my new place yesterday... The rejection/intimacy issues are a significant part of that, but definitely not the only reason. 

All I can suggest is NOT doing what I did, and let the frustrations fester inside. And it doesn't seem like you're doing that, so great job. Either that, or just call her bluff on the offer even if you're not particularly inclined, so she has no reason to delay it next time. After all, she's likely just as tired as you were at that point in the day, right?

C


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Sorry, to clarify...where I am now it is 1045hrs on Monday...this happened last night, Sunday. 
Lets see what happens tonight!
PBear - I hear what you are saying, but also I don't want sympathy or pity sex. I want my wife to want me...to WANT to make love to me etc.

Good luck in your new place....whislt I am sure you have some doubts....you have just started the next part of your life...hopefully a happier one. Good luck!


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I get the same thing sometimes - except I'm a woman and getting this from my husband.

It's game playing and they think we're stupid enough not to figure it out.

I think that's the thing that insults me the most - not the lack of sex, but that my husband thinks I'm stupid enough not to actually pick up on what's going on...

I feel for ya.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

jezza said:


> No one can honestly say that 'Oh! I was going to offer you a bonk' as you turn over and switch your light off is a come on! :rofl:


I agree. My gal is a lower drive one (lower than me, not low) and while she might not always be completely in the mood to do it, she tends to always like and love having sex.

However, there are moments where she really is not ready. I've always told her that she should not feel guilty about it and never pressure her on those moments. I explained, just like you, that pity sex is no sex for me. Just feels empty. 

Well, in our relationship it helps as she feels loved when I just tell her no problem. In yours though... she is just saying that to indeed say what you think she meant. Can't think of any other reason. If she really wanted to, she could have done it, no matter if you were turning the lights off.

Ofcourse, maybe she didn't have the courage... But you would have noticed that I think as you seem like a keen man.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

My husband stil has the drive and it's evident from his constant porn use, the problem is it doesn't appear he has the drive for me and won't tell me if that's true or not.

Very aggravating - if he could just tell me what the real issue was, then I would have the opportunity to deal with it. But I'm in the dark and continue to be there, while the "porn" gets all his attention...sad.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Ex used to use this tactic as well. Now I'm wondering just how common it is ...

She used to consistently call me at work in the afternoon, to tell me she was horny ... knowing damn well that nothing could come of it.

Come 8:30 or 9:00 pm that night ... she was no longer horny, nor interested.

You aren't alone. Keep doing what you're doing.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

i just dont understand why this subject is so difficult, why so many games get played. really sad for alot of us.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

okeydokie said:


> i just dont understand why this subject is so difficult, why so many games get played. really sad for alot of us.


:iagree: You're telling me! I don't understand how people are so open and willing to talk about and participate in a sexual relationship with their spouses/SO, then all of a sudden they put the brakes on it, and expect their other half to accept it, not bring it up and live without it. 

I think it all comes down to control. No control in other areas, but this - they can control and manipulate with.

It is really sad and a lot of people are missing a lot of fun too!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Because the person perpetrating the behavior doesn't see it as a game. Nor do they generally see it as even a problem.

It becomes a problem once you are prepared to jeopardize the relationship rather than simply 'take it'.

Your spouse is rarely going to come right out and say:

"I'm not attracted to you." or "I don't respect you."

But THAT IS what they are saying if this becomes the operational dynamic.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Because the person perpetrating the behavior doesn't see it as a game. Nor do they generally see it as even a problem.
> 
> It becomes a problem once you are prepared to jeopardize the relationship rather than simply 'take it'.
> 
> ...


And maybe that's what I am afraid of. I can work with the "I don't respect you", but what can I do, as his wife, with the "I'm not attracted to you?"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FYI: This is NOT emotional vandalism. It is straight up THEFT. A DIRECT transfer of your self esteem to theirs. They get the "boost" of being chased. And you get the hammer of being rejected later on. 

Ignore mid-day flirting that is part of a pattern of sadistic teasing. Don't even acknowledge it. Because this is flat out abuse. But getting angry about it - calling her out on it will work against you. Just pretend it isn't happening. 

If you get more of the same early evening when the kids are still up - IGNORE it. They either "bring it" at game time or they don't. 

If you are ever in MC and this comes up - there is a very concise description of this behavior: 

My spouse mostly wants to be chased, because it makes him/her feel desired and desirable, but they don't want to be caught. 

The result is they feel great and I feel bad. So I just ignore that behavior now unless we are in a place where we can connect right away and it is obvious they DO want to be caught. 



Deejo said:


> Ex used to use this tactic as well. Now I'm wondering just how common it is ...
> 
> She used to consistently call me at work in the afternoon, to tell me she was horny ... knowing damn well that nothing could come of it.
> 
> ...


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> FYI: This is NOT emotional vandalism. It is straight up THEFT. A DIRECT transfer of your self esteem to theirs. They get the "boost" of being chased. And you get the hammer of being rejected later on.
> 
> Ignore mid-day flirting that is part of a pattern of sadistic teasing. Don't even acknowledge it. Because this is flat out abuse. But getting angry about it - calling her out on it will work against you. Just pretend it isn't happening.
> 
> ...


Great summary Mem. I too have been enticed at weird hours of the day or on the phone. It might happen once every couple of weeks but enough to make me feel like I missed out.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Shoulda nailed her like you were roofin a house.

Called her bluff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

I don't understand it, either. My wife and I have always had a healthy sex life. We've had dips in desire and usually not at the same time. We always were able to get through them. I have a much higher sex drive than she, but hers has really been picking up lately.
During lulls in libido, we have talked about it and both have given a little. It is unfair for one to say, "Nope. I don't want to.", without even considering the spouses needs.
My wife also likes to be chased, but she also likes to get caught!:smthumbup:
I am seldom frustrated.
Thanks, dear.


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Well...its 1315 here on Tuesday....last night she read for about 15 minutes then went to sleep. No bad atmosphere but no love making either. Though maybe some would say that giving me a peck, switching her light out and pulling the duvet over her head was infact a come on....and I was dumb enough not to read it right!

Our consellor gave her DanF's article this morning...lets see what happens. Though I'm not holding my breath!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't see how you are going to get sex if you don't ask for it and expect her to offer it completely on your terms. She's not going to become extremely sexually attracted to you by reading any articles. If you are so overcome with the fear of rejection, you will never get sex from your wife.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

They need to have some sort of understanding though. The reason I say that is the guy who is "mostly" getting shot down is getting emotionally shredded. That is just wrong. 

In my house, you get asked you can say "yes" or you can say "lets connect tomorrow" and then tomorrow happens without effort. 

This whole - "well you should be able to read my mind and know when I am approachable" stuff is ABUSIVE to the HD partner be they male or female. 






Hicks said:


> I don't see how you are going to get sex if you don't ask for it and expect her to offer it completely on your terms. She's not going to become extremely sexually attracted to you by reading any articles. If you are so overcome with the fear of rejection, you will never get sex from your wife.


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Michzz - I would love to have 'nailed her to the bed'....as I would every night...I love her. But if she says 'no', which she used to do 99 times out of 100, you tend to give up asking, which I did.

For me, no means no.... Am not prepared to go to prison for marital rape....and yes, where we live it carries a custodial sentance!


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

jezza said:


> Michzz -But if she says 'no', which she used to do 99 times out of 100, you tend to give up asking, which I did.


Her persistence paid off. She is now in control of you and the relationship ant it's on her terms. Repeat, if you never ask for sex, you will never have sex.

How do you get back control? You have to stop being controlled. Feeling hurt and rejected is "being controlled". 

So how do you ask for sex, get the answer of "no" without allowing yourself to feel hurt and rejected? That's the journey you have to take.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I recall last year my W very deliberately came on to me and then bitterly complained when I responded. I then used a tone of voice that seems to make other people (including her) very uncomfortable. I said something like:

How can you possibly act surprised that when you throw gasoline on a fire and it flares up?

Then I stared at her - angry - silent. And she immediately apologized. She offered to connect right then. I declined - but later that night  ....

In your case - something milder: "It seems you want to pretend to be available even though you really aren't. That might make YOU feel good, but how do you think it makes ME feel"?

And hard as it will be - DO NOT - answer that question for her. In fact don't say another word about anything. Let that hang in the air so she has a chance to acknowledge what she is doing to you. 





jezza said:


> Michzz - I would love to have 'nailed her to the bed'....as I would every night...I love her. But if she says 'no', which she used to do 99 times out of 100, you tend to give up asking, which I did.
> 
> For me, no means no.... Am not prepared to go to prison for marital rape....and yes, where we live it carries a custodial sentance!


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

First, I love reading on this board. Please accept my apology in advance because this is totally off-subject, but in one of the above posts "DanF" was referred to. I, unfortunately, am sorry to say that I do not know the DanF you are referring to, but I always think of Dan Fogelberg. God rest his soul. One of the greatest singers and song writers of all time, (not to mention so good looking) IMHO. Sorry, for the random thought, but every time I see DanF, I think Dan Fogelberg.


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

Mem should write a book. Enough said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Hicks said:


> Her persistence paid off. She is now in control of you and the relationship ant it's on her terms. Repeat, if you never ask for sex, you will never have sex.
> 
> How do you get back control? You have to stop being controlled. Feeling hurt and rejected is "being controlled".
> 
> So how do you ask for sex, get the answer of "no" without allowing yourself to feel hurt and rejected? That's the journey you have to take.


if i was rejected 99 out of 100 attempts i would get it somewhere else.

i think most of us high drive spouses would just like a little open door, some indication from our low drive partners that there is a glimmer of some hope. its called desperation which is closely tied to really loving someone so much that you accomodate them unlike anyone else in your life, you tolerate things. it is a journey to correct the dynamic, it takes alot of soul searching.


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

This is my take on it....'sex' has three aspects; 

1) it is the unconditional act of love making that bonds two people together

2) it is the release of sexual tension

3) procreation

All three are woven together...the act of intercourse shows love, affection and bonding with your partner, it also relieves sexual tension and unless you take precautions (!!), leads to babies!

But....you CAN have just number 2. 

To those men and women out there who want but arent getting 1 & 2, you still need 2....as a male I know my balls need emptying, and like I said in an earlier post, its far nicer if someone else does it for you. (lying on your right arm till it falls asleep then trying to do it so that it feels like someone else just doesnt work!!!!!  

I am rapidly, sadly, reaching the point that if I am not going to get number 1 and no 2 from my wife, I'll have to make do with no 2 from someone else... My wife has pushed me to it....


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Divorce is always an option.
Adultery is a terrible choice.
Sexlessness is fixable though.
1. Take time to be such good husband she would not want to divorce.
2. Indicate that you will divorce her if she does not become more sexual.


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## Hurra (Sep 13, 2009)

Hicks said:


> Divorce is always an option.
> Adultery is a terrible choice.
> Sexlessness is fixable though.
> 1. Take time to be such good husband she would not want to divorce.
> 2. Indicate that you will divorce her if she does not become more sexual.


To me option 2 is not a good option. Using an ultimatium to get your wife to have sex with you is not going to make you feel like she loves you and wants to have sex with you. She is only doing it now to keep you. A mail order Russian bride would be better. At least she wants to have sex to stay married and in the country.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Hurra, while I respect your opinion, #2 does indicate to your spouse the severity of the issue, and what the implications are if they don't take this issue seriously. It doesn't necessarily have to be a threat, but a statement of fact. That the current situation is not acceptable to you, and won't be tolerated. SOMETHING will change.

C


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

First you do # 1, and if #1 does not work then you do #2.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

karole said:


> First, I love reading on this board. Please accept my apology in advance because this is totally off-subject, but in one of the above posts "DanF" was referred to. I, unfortunately, am sorry to say that I do not know the DanF you are referring to, but I always think of Dan Fogelberg. God rest his soul. One of the greatest singers and song writers of all time, (not to mention so good looking) IMHO. Sorry, for the random thought, but every time I see DanF, I think Dan Fogelberg.


It's me. I'm famous around here. (kidding:lol
Here's the article that jezza is referring to
- Focus on the Family


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

DanF said:


> It's me. I'm famous around here. (kidding:lol
> Here's the article that jezza is referring to
> - Focus on the Family


*cough - cough* I think "infamous" is the label you're searching for there "Mr. Fogelberg" :lol: :rofl:


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> *cough - cough* I think "infamous" is the label you're searching for there "Mr. Fogelberg" :lol: :rofl:


Rough crowd...


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Hurra - your Russian bride comment had me in :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
"If you don't give me a BJ I'll call the immigration department..."...gobble gobble gobble :smthumbup:

Dan Dan the sailor man.... You are famaous at last!!!


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Hicks said:


> Divorce is always an option.
> Adultery is a terrible choice.
> Sexlessness is fixable though.
> 1. Take time to be such good husband she would not want to divorce.
> 2. Indicate that you will divorce her if she does not become more sexual.


Exactly. Adultery may drain jezza's balls, but it will also cause much more problems, than the fun is worth. Cheating is a choice; sexless marriages are contributing factors, however nobody can "push" you to cheating except yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Thank you so much DanF. I listen to Focus on the Family every day that I can. I do hope you weren't insulted re: the Dan Fogelberg comment. It was meant as a compliment. Dan was/is my all time favorite singer. Unfortunately, he passed away due to prostate cancer a few years ago. 

I have printed off your article to take home and read. Thank you for giving it to me.


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## DanF (Sep 27, 2010)

karole said:


> Thank you so much DanF. I listen to Focus on the Family every day that I can. I do hope you weren't insulted re: the Dan Fogelberg comment. It was meant as a compliment. Dan was/is my all time favorite singer. Unfortunately, he passed away due to prostate cancer a few years ago.
> 
> I have printed off your article to take home and read. Thank you for giving it to me.


No problem and you're welcome.


Affaircare;
_"Infamous" my Aunt Fannie!_:moon:


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

jezza said:


> This is my take on it....'sex' has three aspects;
> 
> 1) it is the unconditional act of love making that bonds two people together
> 
> ...


#2 would not be to my liking. I don't think women want to be used for release. I think it seems like masturbating into a vag or mouth because they are convenient . I'd feel no connection providing such a service. I think that if a man just needs release and feels no need to connect emotionally then he can masturbate for release. That may be why some women feel that her husband just wants her for sex even though it is not always true. 

Sounds like the old teen blue ball argument to get a girl to have sex with them. Sorry but that's what masturbation is for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Catherine602 said:


> ...if a man just needs release ...


The key word here is "just."

That is rarely the case. The comment pointed out the interwoven nature of three needs.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> #2 would not be to my liking. I don't think women want to be used for release. I think it seems like masturbating into a vag or mouth because they are convenient . I'd feel no connection providing such a service. I think that if a man just needs release and feels no need to connect emotionally then he can masturbate for release. That may be why some women feel that her husband just wants her for sex even though it is not always true.
> 
> Sounds like the old teen blue ball argument to get a girl to have sex with them. Sorry but that's what masturbation is for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



And . . . so?

Maybe women don't like to be "used for release", but men don't like feeling blackmailed into non-sexual intimacy without at least consideration of sexual intimacy, which happens far more frequently in most marriages. 

The goal of "Sex for release", where emotional considerations are secondary to good ol' fashion lust, happens to both genders, although far more frequently to males. When wives in an unequal marriage want to tear one off, it's as easy as waiting for the next bus, and if they don't make a big deal out of the emotional ties at the time we fellas rarely point it out. 

But "sex for release" isn't what masturbation is for. That's a short-sighted perspective. When a man wants physical release, that's one thing (he's essentially making love to himself); but when he wants emotional release _through_ physical release, then masturbation just won't do. Validating your orgasm with a partner (for some poor men, even a stranger) is necessary to connect to that pool of emotional pressure and allow it to dissipate. Only then is he going to be willing to become intimate emotionally.

It concerns me that so many women have such an unsophisticated understanding of male sexuality.


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## Jones (Sep 15, 2010)

the OP should speak his mind when his wife says these little remarks like tomorrow evening then or i was gonna .....
He can't say nothing then be upset for days on end. Why not speak up or even do more like getting it on. Dont feel all sorry for yourself then think about cheating...
I just don't get it.
sorry


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Jones said:


> the OP should speak his mind when his wife says these little remarks like tomorrow evening then or i was gonna .....
> He can't say nothing then be upset for days on end. Why not speak up or even do more like getting it on. Dont feel all sorry for yourself then think about cheating...
> I just don't get it.
> sorry


I wonder too. It a sign of the nature of the dynamic between a spouse who is being denied sex. It almost as if he does not feel he has a right to feel rejected and upset. If his wife slapped in the face every now and then, he would react immediately but when she wounds so cruelly by teasing him, he can't seem to respond with the force that fits the seriousness of the wound. 

I have a question to men who have experienced this situation. I read some post in the past like this where the LD spouse is seems to be baited the HD spouse but the reaction of the HD spouse seems muted. . Why is that? I have a theory that the HD spouse has come to view themselves as wrong for wanting sex. I'd like to ask the LD spouse who does this, what is going through their mind but I don't think I will get an answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> And . . . so?
> 
> Maybe women don't like to be "used for release", but men don't like feeling blackmailed into non-sexual intimacy without at least consideration of sexual intimacy, which happens far more frequently in most marriages.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your explanation and understand much better. I say what is on my mind just so that if my thinking is faulty, some man will come along and express from their point of view. I will admit that my views are pedestrian but don't be too hard on me, I am expressing what many women feel. Many men and women have very faulty views of what the intensions of their partner are based on gender misinformation. If i did not give my knee- jerk reactions, there would be no dialogue. There would be no possibility of understanding. This forum has helped me tremendously, the frank discussions are better than reading relationship books. Here, i can react to what is written and get a response something you don't get from a book. 

Your explanation has given me another way of looking at the issue and I appreciate your comment it helps me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I wonder too. It a sign of the nature of the dynamic between a spouse who is being denied sex. It almost as if he does not feel he has a right to feel rejected and upset. If his wife slapped in the face every now and then, he would react immediately but when she wounds so cruelly by teasing him, he can't seem to respond with the force that fits the seriousness of the wound.
> 
> I have a question to men who have experienced this situation. I read some post in the past like this where the LD spouse is seems to be baited the HD spouse but the reaction of the HD spouse seems muted. . Why is that? I have a theory that the HD spouse has come to view themselves as wrong for wanting sex. I'd like to ask the LD spouse who does this, what is going through their mind but I don't think I will get an answer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, a quick example from 2-3years into our relationship. I've always had a high drive, and there was a moment in our relationship where hers was a bit low. I then got asked if I were with her only for sex. Well, it is a blow to the heart you don't easily forget. In a knee-jerk reaction, when her drive was up a few months later, I said the same thing. Quickly apologized though as I knew it was just the resentment speaking and remembering how bad it can make you feel. I believe she has since forgotten. I do still remember what she said once in a blue moon though. It hurt a lot in the first few weeks, even felt scared to initiate. Nowadays I just shrug when I remember it. Doesn't bother me anymore. 

Now, I can only imagine what hearing those words regularly might do to you, male or female.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Update - our counsellor gave my wife 'the article' and said she appeared to be very interested in it...that was three days ago. My wife hasnt mentioned it or anything. Her period started 2 days ago and I know the next week is a totally closed (to anything) week...which I respect.


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Just a quick update - Our counsellor gave my wife 'the article' last Tuesday (1st Feb)...I posted the above just after my counselling session.
My wife had a session two days ago and I have just come back from mine.
The counsellor asked my wife if she had read the article...'No, I put it in a draw so no one would see it and completely forgot about it'.

In the recent past my wife has said things like...'if you want me to come to bed earlier I want to eat earlier'....and...'why don't you take the dog for a walk in the evening'...and 'why cant we spoon and watch more television or a film together'....'...if you want me to feel more sexual'....

So, being a normal man, I have been doing all those things and walking home from work (2 miles) = excercise. 

I haven't been doing these things just to get laid...excercise is good for you, marriage is a team so why shouldn't I take the dog for a walk or prepare dinner earlier or spoon with my wife whilst we watch a film...or give her a massage etc...thats what being married is all about.
Has my wife made any effort to be sexual? No. Have we had sex in the past 3 months? No. 
Does my wife realise we have a sexless marriage? Yes (according to our counsellor)...
Is my wife making any apparent attempt to resolve things? No.

And now she 'forgot' to read DanF's article explaining all about mens sexuality. 

If I have an affair or seek sexual relief elsewhere then I am the bad, nasty, unfaithful adulteror and may I rot in hell.

Poor woman being married to such an unreasonable ogre.


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## Jones (Sep 15, 2010)

I dont think there is a justification for cheating. If you cannot wait until your wife starts to try to make things better, then leave. Cheating is not the answer!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jezza,
She is showing all the classic signs of feeling a little too "warm". I really think your thermostat is set too high for her. 

Are you willing to "lower" the temperature? Are you comfortable that you can do that while remaining friendly, upbeat, good company?




jezza said:


> Just a quick update - Our counsellor gave my wife 'the article' last Tuesday (1st Feb)...I posted the above just after my counselling session.
> My wife had a session two days ago and I have just come back from mine.
> The counsellor asked my wife if she had read the article...'No, I put it in a draw so no one would see it and completely forgot about it'.
> 
> ...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Jezza,
> She is showing all the classic signs of feeling a little too "warm". I really think your thermostat is set too high for her.
> 
> Are you willing to "lower" the temperature? Are you comfortable that you can do that while remaining friendly, upbeat, good company?



You mean, compromise his own sexuality to fit her unrealistic expectations?

I'd make about twenty copies of that article and start leaving it here, there, and everywhere until she takes the hint. At some point she will either read it, or complain. If she complains, hit her with "I thought you were committed to saving this marriage?" and enter the Man Cave Of Silence until she's read it and is ready to discuss it.

You have to hold her accountable. Otherwise you're going to end up an unhappy doormat.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ian,
We might have a terminology disconnect. Do you know what what I mean by "lowering the temperature"?

I have a post on the "thermostat". Take a look.




IanIronwood said:


> You mean, compromise his own sexuality to fit her unrealistic expectations?
> 
> I'd make about twenty copies of that article and start leaving it here, there, and everywhere until she takes the hint. At some point she will either read it, or complain. If she complains, hit her with "I thought you were committed to saving this marriage?" and enter the Man Cave Of Silence until she's read it and is ready to discuss it.
> 
> You have to hold her accountable. Otherwise you're going to end up an unhappy doormat.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

jezza said:


> J
> 
> If I have an affair or seek sexual relief elsewhere then I am the bad, nasty, unfaithful adulteror and may I rot in hell.
> 
> ...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Ian,
> We might have a terminology disconnect. Do you know what what I mean by "lowering the temperature"?
> 
> I have a post on the "thermostat". Take a look.


Gotcha.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Hicks said:


> jezza said:
> 
> 
> > J
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cold is - relentless. It permeates everywhere. You cannot hide from it and you cannot directly "fight" it. 

And cold is really about "contrast". Someone used to a nice balmy 80 degrees fahrenheit like Jezza's W - has absolutely no ability to tolerate even a 40 degree environment. 

There is a near universal reaction to cold. Humans try to get warm. This isn't a "female" reaction - it is a human reaction. Of course in a marriage with an easily dominated husband (sorry Jezza - look on the bright side - the truth can set you free) you feel cold you scream bloody fury at your H to turn the damn thermostat up. Thing is - social conventions are VERY consistent on this point. You have no obligation to convey "warmth/love" to a badly behaved partner. 





IanIronwood said:


> Hicks said:
> 
> 
> > I can't argue with that logic. The real question is how that masculine strength will manifest itself in context of this situation.
> ...


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

Agreed with you all. Cheating will show something, but it still shows that you are willing to stay with her, even if it means letting go of your integrity and going outside the marriage. Furthermore, she can play the victim card as well, no matter your reasoning.


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Update....but I hope you are sitting down!...
Last Tuesday our counsellor gave me a copy of the atricle to take home so that my wife saw it as being fair. I told my wife about it..."oh, maybe we could read it together" she said.... I went to bed at about 10pm last night and started reading it. My wife came in about 15 mins later and asked what I was reading....I told her what I was reading adding "you should read it. Its interesting".....
Her response?....."I've already read it and its a load of bollocks. Clearly written by a man who wants to get more sex". When I recovered I said; "Juli Slattery sounds like very feminine name to me"....
"Well she must have been a male at some point"

My wife wasnt joking. She thought the article was 'bollocks'.

Meanwhile, I was gobsmacked!


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## LonelyNLost (Dec 11, 2010)

jezza said:


> Update....but I hope you are sitting down!...
> Last Tuesday our counsellor gave me a copy of the atricle to take home so that my wife saw it as being fair. I told my wife about it..."oh, maybe we could read it together" she said.... I went to bed at about 10pm last night and started reading it. My wife came in about 15 mins later and asked what I was reading....I told her what I was reading adding "you should read it. Its interesting".....
> Her response?....."I've already read it and its a load of bollocks. Clearly written by a man who wants to get more sex". When I recovered I said; "Juli Slattery sounds like very feminine name to me"....
> "Well she must have been a male at some point"
> ...


I'm a woman, and I'm frustrated for you, jezza! What's her hangup anyway? Does she feel like she doesn't get enough affection, and therefore doesn't want to have sex? I would try the thermostat idea. Another book I read recently was His Needs, Her Needs. Maybe read it and see if she'll read it as well. As a woman, I felt the chapters on woman's needs were spot on. I wasn't so sure about the men's. But the first need for men is sexual fulfillment, and it's filled with examples of needs not being met and cheating ensuing. My H personally said sex was not at the top of his list, and he wasn't sure he agreed with the other needs. But maybe ask your counselor about this book and see what he/she thinks. I wish you luck, dude. At this point, if she stopped being so controlling and gave you some, it would probably be a disappointment because it's been so long coming. Sorry, dude.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

jezza, your wife doesnt want to fix this, and is in complete denial. without her buying in at least a little bit, all the work you put into this will likely fail to achieve your desired result. i hate to be blunt, sorry


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## jezza (Jan 12, 2011)

Maybe I'm being a bit dim here...but could someone please explain what the 'thermostat' is?

If it means to just reduce the level etc of general touchy feely stuff then I've tried it. Doesnt seem to concern her. Though since we've been in counselling she's been wanting to spoon, RECEIVE massages, peck as we leave/return from work etc. I guess because thats all 'safe' stuff...stuff that won't lead to that dirty, dreadful and immoral thing called....sex (with your husband).

Or am I way off on the thermostat thing?...


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I think it was MEM who did a post on the different levels on the thermostat, it wasn't that long ago, it's quite interesting as a concept, it's about the levels of attention and affection people "radiate".

Like I'm naturally a "warm" to "hot" person, I am physically affectionate and giving, attentive, whereas my OH is further down the scale, deeming him "cool".

These might be useful:

Emotional temperature/thermostat

The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R

Cross-posted with Star but hope you find these helpful!


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I wonder too. It a sign of the nature of the dynamic between a spouse who is being denied sex.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> I have a theory that the HD spouse has come to view themselves as wrong for wanting sex. I'd like to ask the LD spouse who does this,


In my case my wife has really tried to push that whole idea. I'm some freak who wants lots of sex. I'm some freak who wants a BJ some time other than my birthday. It doesn't work and it ticks me off.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> jezza, your wife doesnt want to fix this, and is in complete denial. without her buying in at least a little bit, all the work you put into this will likely fail to achieve your desired result. i hate to be blunt, sorry


I concur. If she thought it was a load of bollocks, and doesn't realize that this is important to you, then she isn't committed . . . or she doesn't realize just exactly how important this is to you. If you don't scare her about this, she's not going to take it seriously. She'll probably ride out a temperature drop, too, in the belief that you'll fold before she does. 

Serious, dude. She's got nothing at risk. Why would she change?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

In a marriage you ALWAYS follow the "minimum use of force doctrine". 

Jezza has yet to REALLY drop the temperature and keep it there. In fact his W is very deliberately engaged in some warmth seeking activities - cuddling etc. and Jezza IS SADLY accommodating her. My guess - she has little tolerance for cold. 

Jezza - dropping the temperature really is fairly cookbook. It just requires some discipline because she is going to immediately press you to crank the heat up. When she asks to "cuddle" just smile and tell her you have something else needs doing - and go do something else. When you get in bed - tell her you are too tired to cuddle and need to go right to sleep. And STICK to that. 

Come on man. Use your brain and your balls before you take out the club of direct threats like divorce. You can "emotionally extort" a certain amount of sex via the threat of divorce, or you can create some anxiety and with it some passion by making the house COOOOLLLLLDDDDDD. 

BTW - If I were your W I wouldn't sleep with you either. I am not being mean spirited. I could not have long term sex with a partner I didn't respect. And if someone *********** them around like you are - and acted like a dog - instead of clawing and biting me like a cat - I would lose my desire for them. 



IanIronwood said:


> I concur. If she thought it was a load of bollocks, and doesn't realize that this is important to you, then she isn't committed . . . or she doesn't realize just exactly how important this is to you. If you don't scare her about this, she's not going to take it seriously. She'll probably ride out a temperature drop, too, in the belief that you'll fold before she does.
> 
> Serious, dude. She's got nothing at risk. Why would she change?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

larry.gray said:


> In my case my wife has really tried to push that whole idea. I'm some freak who wants lots of sex. I'm some freak who wants a BJ some time other than my birthday. It doesn't work and it ticks me off.


Good for you, dude. When guys ask me about the "sex freak" thing, I have them start keeping metrics on their ACTUAL sexual experience, and then compare it to the publicly available figures for American averages. Then I have them start asking their wives to start seeing a physician to correctly diagnose the exact nature of _their_ problem. It's amazing how quickly the story changes.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Simple example of thermostat adjustment*

Jezza,
MANY spouses EGREGIOUSLY abuse the phrase "ILY". While ignoring a core need of yours - and in so doing making you miserable - they will look you in the eye daily and say "ILY" multiple times. How does THAT work? 

My take on that behavior is this: "I know I am treating you like sheeeiiit, so I want you to reassure me verbally every day that you really are ok with that". 

In that situation a simple move - along with many others like being too tired to "cuddle" or do special acts of service, works like this. 

You: "I have decided that in the spirit of helping us grow together as a couple we are going to rid ourselves of a little emotional "crutch" we both use. Until we MUTUALLY decide otherwise we are going to stop saying "ILY" to each other. Completely. What we will do instead is make the effort to "SHOW" each other love through good faith acts." 

And don't debate it - meaning if you get a highly negative reaction - no matter what your partner says just 
"shrug" or say "I disagree" and then end the conversation. And then STOP saying ILY and don't acknowledge it when they do. 





MEM11363 said:


> In a marriage you ALWAYS follow the "minimum use of force doctrine".
> 
> Jezza has yet to REALLY drop the temperature and keep it there. In fact his W is very deliberately engaged in some warmth seeking activities - cuddling etc. and Jezza IS SADLY accommodating her. My guess - she has little tolerance for cold.
> 
> ...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

*Re: Simple example of thermostat adjustment*



MEM11363 said:


> Jezza,
> MANY spouses EGREGIOUSLY abuse the phrase "ILY". While ignoring a core need of yours - and in so doing making you miserable - they will look you in the eye daily and say "ILY" multiple times. How does THAT work?
> 
> My take on that behavior is this: "I know I am treating you like sheeeiiit, so I want you to reassure me verbally every day that you really are ok with that".
> ...



I like that idea. A lot.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Simple example of thermostat adjustment*

Ian,
We are unlikely to ever convince Jezza of this but his W is DELIBERATELY provoking him. She WANTS some edge. Likely she NEEDS some edge to feel desire. 

And when her "neck hurts" - which will be her pushing his "rescuer" button - a very powerful button in a man - she is saying two things at once: I cannot massage YOU because my neck hurts. But of course I fully expect YOU to take care of my needs. 

WHEN - not if - WHEN that happens he needs to tell her "I am tired tonight, MAYBE tomorrow night". And then rinse/repeat until she feels enough edge to fuukk his brains out. The absolute beauty of this approach is that she will WANT to fuukk his brains out at that point. She WILL feel desire. 




IanIronwood said:


> I like that idea. A lot.


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## Draguna (Jan 13, 2011)

*Re: Simple example of thermostat adjustment*



MEM11363 said:


> Ian,
> We are unlikely to ever convince Jezza of this but his W is DELIBERATELY provoking him. She WANTS some edge. Likely she NEEDS some edge to feel desire.
> 
> And when her "neck hurts" - which will be her pushing his "rescuer" button - a very powerful button in a man - she is saying two things at once: I cannot massage YOU because my neck hurts. But of course I fully expect YOU to take care of my needs.
> ...


Heh, your way of explaining the whole concept is great. It's easy to understand. Have to agree with you. No need for Jezza to say ILY.

It kind of pains me to see him in this situation but hope he will understand that the best way to get respect (which is part of what is missing in their relationship) is to earn it. And you cannot earn respect by being a doormat. Most people in this world and especially women don't have a high opinion of people who are too nice.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

*Re: Simple example of thermostat adjustment*



Draguna said:


> Heh, your way of explaining the whole concept is great. It's easy to understand. Have to agree with you. No need for Jezza to say ILY.
> 
> It kind of pains me to see him in this situation but hope he will understand that the best way to get respect (which is part of what is missing in their relationship) is to earn it. And you cannot earn respect by being a doormat. Most people in this world and especially women don't have a high opinion of people who are too nice.


when your nice they dont want you to be, when you arent they do.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: Simple example of thermostat adjustment*

When I am "jerky" my stronger partner ***** slaps me so hard it makes my ears ring. 

When I am a mix of playfully rough, verbally and physically. Relaxed and unpreturbed by her fitness tests and calm/alpha when need be she fuukks my brains out. 




okeydokie said:


> when your nice they dont want you to be, when you arent they do.


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