# 'Man up' Books



## Deejo

Over the last few months I have become fascinated by gender dynamics and roles in relationships. You don't have to dig very deep around here to easily identify patterns of behavior, and what results or outcomes arise out of those patterns.

So, I'm studying up. I wanted to provide a list of books that can assist on a personal level as well as relating to the fairer sex. Please make your own recommendations, additions, and comments.

Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S - Wayne Levine

The Married Man Sex Life Primer - Athol Kay (Athol also authors the Married Man Sex Life blog, and is a contributor on TAM)

Being the Strong Man A Woman Wants - Elliott Katz

Fire in the Belly - Sam Keen

The Way of the Superior Man - David Deida

No More Mr. Nice Guy - Robert Glover

Models - Mark Manson

How to Win Friends & Influence People - Dale Carnegie


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## nice777guy

thanks...and bump...


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## Deejo

The message throughout these titles has become remarkably clear, and is reiterated here on the boards from a number of great contributors.

The much debated theme of 'dominance' here, is referred to in many other terms throughout the books. 

The benefit for many here can contribute directly to navigating their marriages and relationships. But ... even moreover than fixing your marriage or becoming attractive to women, they contribute to making you a better man.

I'll throw up reviews as I make my way through them.


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## Atholk

Google suggests you're on the right path... Married Man Sex Life: Ask Google What A Wife Wants...

I seriously just LOL when I saw the #1 result.


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## Deejo

Atholk said:


> Google suggests you're on the right path... Married Man Sex Life: Ask Google What A Wife Wants...
> 
> I seriously just LOL when I saw the #1 result.


DUDE!

I am dating again. The way I conduct myself now, I truly believed was disrespectful when I was in my 20's. My code used to be 'never kiss on the first date'. I'm not kidding. I thought it just introduced too much pressure. I used to think that I was being honorable by allowing the fair lady to dictate the terms and pace of the relationship. I thought that made me cool and different. Not so much anymore, and of course the response has been nothing short of staggering.


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## turnera

I LOVE Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S. Highly recommend it. And the website (betterman.org). It's a wife's dream of how her husband would be.


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## Deejo

Thanks for the input turnera, I have not read that one yet. The title alone made it a 'must have'.

I had to pick up "No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover after seeing that title mentioned a number of times here on the boards.

My opinion is, that if you are a man and find yourself on these forums as a result of infidelity, or are mired in a joyless, sexless, directionless marriage - and have the following mindset:
"I don't understand how this happened. I'm a good husband. I bend over backwards to please her and to serve the marriage ..."

This is the book to start with.

"I'm a nice guy. I'm one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet."

That is the header for chapter 1. Glover then launches into clearly describing 'Nice guy syndrome'; what it entails, traits, behaviors, and consequences, and why the paradigm simply doesn't work. What I found extremely interesting is the historical evolution of the nice guy.

The book uses case studies and anecdotal contributions from men that participated in NMMNG group therapy. You *will* see yourself or your relationship in the pages of this book.

The other thing that I found really appealing about NMMNG is that it doesn't need to be a cover to cover read. I do recommend starting with chapters 1 and 2, but beyond that the chapters are encapsulated. They do not need to be read in succession to build upon the concepts. 

The other emphasis is that this is action oriented. The concepts of what made you a nice guy and how you behave as a result are laid out simply and clearly. So are the solutions. The solution involves identifying the areas you need to address, and the steps to take. But of course, it doesn't much matter if you don't take the steps.

My opinion is that this title is a great reference and one of the most sensible places to start if you cannot understand why you aren't given what you are looking for despite being 'the nicest guy you'll ever meet."

As a result of reading this, being referred to as 'nice' makes my stomach turn. Importantly, the journey of acknowledging your inner nice guy, strangling him and leaving him for dead on the side of the road does not mean that you are instead choosing to become a misogynistic self-centered bastard.


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## Deejo

Being the Strong Man A Woman Wants by Elliott Katz

This title distinctly deals with restoring balance to a faltering marriage or relationship.
The foreword is written by Robert Glover, and once again emphasizes the overarching notion that women are attracted to men who demonstrate strength, confidence, compassion, and embrace the role of being a leader in their life and relationships.

This is a very easy and enjoyable read. It is not a guide, or step-by-step reference. The story is told as a parable.

It is the story of Michael, his wife Lisa, and Michael making the discovery of what being a strong man means through interacting with his grandfather.

This book paints the picture of where so many of us end up in our relationship, faltering, disconnected, uncertain about why things aren't working, and being stuck in continuing to do the wrong things to fix it.

The arc of the story culminates with the proverbial happy ending, but it isn't sappy. It simply emphasizes that the lessons are simple, powerful, and positive.

This is a book that you can give to someone without it appearing that you are trying to get them to read a self-help book. The messages are powerful without beating you over the head. This is a book that a wife could potentially give her husband or partner as a means of addressing issues without sending the message; "Stop being a pu$$y."


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## BigBadWolf

Atholk said:


> Google suggests you're on the right path... Married Man Sex Life: Ask Google What A Wife Wants...
> 
> I seriously just LOL when I saw the #1 result.


 



So it is not a book, but I am just listening to Christina Aguilera also saying these things, so much so in this song as maybe to be the cheerleading theme of many "man up" threads:

Christina Aguilera Ain't No Other Man


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## nice777guy

Kind of funny - I went looking for some of the books above at my local public library system - which was recently given some national recognition at the "Grammy's" or whatever for libraries.

The ONLY book they had on your list above is "The Way of the Superior Man." Got it and have read a few chapters. Haven't learned a whole lot yet - although it did make me think about how the fundamental difference in sexes show through in the movies we watch.

I like "some" chick flicks, but I go ape**** over a good Clint Eastwood movie. I still think Rocky and Rambo are cool, and still can't stand to watch Dirty Dancing. The "movie" analogy he makes very early in the book just really hit home to me.

Also wanted to note that the local bookstores do not carry NMMNG - or maybe they're just sold out. Anyway - have my copy on order from Amazon now.

I would also like to mention the classic Codependent No More as another option for us really nice guys to read.


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## hyndsight1

Just got my copy of NMMNG yesterday and about halfway through it. A real eye opener for me. I have always a real skeptic when it comes to justifying adult behaviors on childhood events, (too much watching Criminal Minds), but some of this stuff just makes sense. Maybe 'justification' is the wrong word, more just understanding I guess.
Hey, while we're talking movies, how about 'The Hangover'. If you've seen it you know what I'm talking about, if you havn't, you should, (it is a good flick). My wife and I watched it a while ago and I wondered after if she wasn't thinking the same thing. I cringe to admit it but the biggest difference between the dentist and I was that my wife wasn't banging the bartender. :rofl: look at me now!


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## turnera

I read an amazing book (can't remember title, will look for it) that someone recommended to me. Basically, what works for you as a child is what you repeat, in childhood. And the more you do it, you develop 'roads' in your brain - shored up, stronger synapses to these reactions and solutions. As an adult, when faced with a decision, those 'roads' are the most available, first to come up, because they've been used repeatedly. Think of a shoveled road vs. nonshoveled one.

Now, these solutions may have been great for a kid, but may be totally wrong for an adult. Like, saying you didn't break the window. Translates into lying that you did go to the store to get the milk, but they were out, to keep your wife from nagging at you.


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## hyndsight1

Here's an addition: Raising Boys, by Steve Biddulph. 
I started reading this as the father of two boys. It breaks down the three stages of 'boyhood' and the changing roles that parents have to lead in order to keep up with their development, _especialy_ the last stage, 14 to adult. This is the time in a boys life that he is looking to break free, and parents typicaly want to 'hold him back' for as long as possible. Everybody knows that fathers and teenage boys lock horns once in a while, but unfortunately this scenario inevitably results in the boy looking elsewhere for 'mentoring', and almost always to people who honestly aren't qualified. This is the point when I started to read the book for myself....it's almost like the prequil to nmmng. Highly recomended, especialy to those of us who have boys.


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## cody5

It's fate.

To go from my latest thread, where I discuss my sexless, directionless, emotionless marriage directly into this thread. With tears in my eyes, I switched out of one forum and into this one and clicked here. 

I hope these books are as good as you all say. I'm going book shopping tonight. This looks like EXACTLY what I need. For the first time in months I have some hope.

Fate, I'm telling you.


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## Deejo

bumping for book addition.


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## LFC

Too Nice for Your Own Good: How to Stop Making 9 Self-Sabotaging Mistakes

anyone read this it gets mixed reviews.

I would much prefer my wife not knowing I am reading these type of books ,maybe its just me but reading self help sort of screams I have a problem.
Maybe I'll get a Kindle


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## Deejo

LFC said:


> Too Nice for Your Own Good: How to Stop Making 9 Self-Sabotaging Mistakes
> 
> anyone read this it gets mixed reviews.
> 
> I would much prefer my wife not knowing I am reading these type of books ,maybe its just me but reading self help sort of screams I have a problem.
> Maybe I'll get a Kindle


For those already struggling within their relationship, I generally emphasize that they should NOT broadcast, offer up for discussion, or suggest that their partner read any of the books they are focusing on.

The only thing that is going to make a difference to her, is what you 'show her', not what you 'tell her'.


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## BigBadWolf

Agreed with Deejo.

Put the changes in place in actions and behaviors, and do them for yourself, no one else, and only then seeing the results judge whether it is worthwhile or not.

Putting changes in place "to please her", or worse, asking or seeking her approval to put such changes in place, is tripping up right out of the gate.

And my own wife confirms this. Some time ago, and this even YEARS after making my own changes in my own behavior, and having much success in my own marriage, I took the chance to invite my wife to have a discussion on these very things, to see what her perspective was, and to get her point of view.

She would have none of it. She didn't want to talk about it, saw no value in talkin about it, and her only input was to not seek out any other man's formula but only rely on my own direction and creativity.

So that is why on these forums, however frequently I try to give advice, I encourage any good man to grasp the essence, the fundamentals, and from there to fill in the specifics based on his own values, desires, goals, and personality.

For that way the benefits for him, and his woman, are truly genuine and real.


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## AbsolutelyFree

It's not really about nice guys or relationships or men and women, but I think it is still important -- 'When I say no, I feel guilty'


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## Conrad

Wolf,

My own experience parallels this.

There is no point in discussing it.

Just make sure your viewpoint is your own.




BigBadWolf said:


> Agreed with Deejo.
> 
> Put the changes in place in actions and behaviors, and do them for yourself, no one else, and only then seeing the results judge whether it is worthwhile or not.
> 
> Putting changes in place "to please her", or worse, asking or seeking her approval to put such changes in place, is tripping up right out of the gate.
> 
> And my own wife confirms this. Some time ago, and this even YEARS after making my own changes in my own behavior, and having much success in my own marriage, I took the chance to invite my wife to have a discussion on these very things, to see what her perspective was, and to get her point of view.
> 
> She would have none of it. She didn't want to talk about it, saw no value in talkin about it, and her only input was to not seek out any other man's formula but only rely on my own direction and creativity.
> 
> So that is why on these forums, however frequently I try to give advice, I encourage any good man to grasp the essence, the fundamentals, and from there to fill in the specifics based on his own values, desires, goals, and personality.
> 
> For that way the benefits for him, and his woman, are truly genuine and real.


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## BigBadWolf

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Robert Glover, available free online in .pdf format.


http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf


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## Therealbrighteyes

While this isn't a man up book per se about marriage, it certainly is a fantastic book on how to become a leader and garner respect, which certainly translates in to relationships.
"The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen Covey. 
It is standard issue for MBA students and newly promoted executives.


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## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> While this isn't a man up book per se about marriage, it certainly is a fantastic book on how to become a leader and garner respect, which certainly translates in to relationships.
> "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" by Stephen Covey.
> It is standard issue for MBA students and newly promoted executives.


I've read the 7 Habits. I even did the video course with a pharmaceutical company sponsorship - on a corporate retreat.

Did it help me quit being a "nice guy" in relationships?

Not one iota.

In fact, I was a more "effective" Nice Guy - so I ended up even more frustrated.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> I've read the 7 Habits. I even did the video course with a pharmaceutical company sponsorship - on a corporate retreat.
> 
> Did it help me quit being a "nice guy" in relationships?
> 
> Not one iota.
> 
> In fact, I was a more "effective" Nice Guy - so I ended up even more frustrated.


Hmmm. Well I am sorry to hear that. Although I am a very vocal person online, in real life, I have difficulty standing up for myself. I have a tendency to "people please", much to my detriment.
I read that book and it has helped me tremendously. I am learning to "man up" in my own way and that book gave me the push I needed. As with all self help books, it resonates with some and not with others.


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## Conrad

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Hmmm. Well I am sorry to hear that. Although I am a very vocal person online, in real life, I have difficulty standing up for myself. I have a tendency to "people please", much to my detriment.
> I read that book and it has helped me tremendously. I am learning to "man up" in my own way and that book gave me the push I needed. As with all self help books, it resonates with some and not with others.


Brennan,

I'll be more direct.

It taught me empathy - which is a valuable skill.

Yet, for a "Nice Guy", empathy is only a tool of manipulation to convince women that the man is truly "different" from those other a-hole guys. He can listen... how wonderful.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> I'll be more direct.
> 
> It taught me empathy - which is a valuable skill.
> 
> Yet, for a "Nice Guy", empathy is only a tool of manipulation to convince women that the man is truly "different" from those other a-hole guys. He can listen... how wonderful.


Ah, okay. I see your point. I never lacked in empathy so I didn't have any take away from that book in that department. I did have many others about effective communication. I often had difficulty staking my boundaries with co-workers. Many said hurtful things to me and I would internalize it and stew. Now, I speak up much more often. First time I worked up the nerve it was to a superior and I said "Please don't talk to me that way. What you said hurt my feelings and it is difficult to work in such a hostile environment". Her demeanor changed towards me in a positive way.


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## Triumph

BigBadWolf said:


> So that is why on these forums, however frequently I try to give advice, I encourage any good man to grasp the essence, the fundamentals, and from there to fill in the specifics based on his own values, desires, goals, and personality.


Im really quite new to all of this. Never put much thought into self improvement or trying to better the marriage. 

No More Mr. Nice Guy and the MMSL Blog, plus a couple weeks on this forum are all I have under my belt. I think Im grasping the concepts well.

My question is, as succinctly as possible, what are the fundamentals? 

If I google "Human Behaviour" it will give me a treasure trove of meaningless articles. I need to hone in on some of the specifics more. Unfortunately, I dont know that many. Help here would be great.

Oh, BUMP. good thread.


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## turnera

The concept is this: Love and cherish your wife, but expect respect and cooperation in return. If she refuses to do so, point it out to her, and make it clear that you deserve JUST as much happiness out of this marriage as she does, and that means she is just as responsible for caring about your happiness as you are of hers, and make it clear that you won't stay in a marriage where this is the case. Don't just let it slide cos she's female.


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## AFEH

Triumph said:


> Im really quite new to all of this. Never put much thought into self improvement or trying to better the marriage.
> 
> No More Mr. Nice Guy and the MMSL Blog, plus a couple weeks on this forum are all I have under my belt. I think Im grasping the concepts well.
> 
> My question is, as succinctly as possible, what are the fundamentals?
> 
> If I google "Human Behaviour" it will give me a treasure trove of meaningless articles. I need to hone in on some of the specifics more. Unfortunately, I dont know that many. Help here would be great.
> 
> Oh, BUMP. good thread.


Fundamentals? Personal boundaries, knowing what they are in general, what yours are in specifics (essentially behaviour you will not tolerate of yourself or from others in association with yourself) and how to assert them when needed.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> The concept is this: Love and cherish your wife, but expect respect and cooperation in return. If she refuses to do so, point it out to her, and make it clear that you deserve JUST as much happiness out of this marriage as she does, and that means she is just as responsible for caring about your happiness as you are of hers, and make it clear that you won't stay in a marriage where this is the case. Don't just let it slide cos she's female.


I respectfully disagree. I think the man has to look at himself “outside the context” of his wife and within the very much wider context of the world around him. And not let his wife define who he is as a man. His wife is a part of his “Man’s Life”, but she is not all of his life. And when he stands quitely proud (don’t always like that word, but I think it fits here) as a Man, his wife will be proud to stand beside him as his Woman.


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## IanIronwood

AFEH said:


> I respectfully disagree. I think the man has to look at himself “outside the context” of his wife and within the very much wider context of the world around him. And not let his wife define who he is as a man. His wife is a part of his “Man’s Life”, but she is not all of his life. And when he stands quitely proud (don’t always like that word, but I think it fits here) as a Man, his wife will be proud to stand beside him as his Woman.


I concur. Manning up has very little to do with your wife. It has a lot to do with how you deal with your wife, and perhaps some to do with how your wife has had an impact on your psyche, but the wife is not the focus. 

Manning up is an attempt to discover, embrace, and embody your own unique sense of masculinity and be able to manifest it in every aspect of your life, free from fear of rejection and judgement. It means that you refuse to accept an unacceptable situation, you advocate for your personal interest without shame or guilt, and you boldly meet the challenges the gods lay before your feet with the heart of a warrior, the wisdom of a king, the passion of a lover and the accomplishment of a wizard. It means re-making yourself in your own image and defining yourself as a man without input by every female in your life. And what emerges, at the other end of the tunnel, is a fully-transformed man with a profoundly deep self-knowledge and understanding that allows him pursue his goals -- whatever they might be -- without self-imposed limitations.

It also helps you get laid more. Just thought I'd throw that one in there.


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## turnera

AFEH said:


> I respectfully disagree. I think the man has to look at himself “outside the context” of his wife and within the very much wider context of the world around him. And not let his wife define who he is as a man. His wife is a part of his “Man’s Life”, but she is not all of his life. And when he stands quitely proud (don’t always like that word, but I think it fits here) as a Man, his wife will be proud to stand beside him as his Woman.


 I thought we were referring to the concepts of manning up.


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## IanIronwood

After taking a leak and thinking about it a little more, I realized that the modern genesis of the whole concept of "manning up" was actually the feminist movement, specifically the the psychological explorations of empowerment and the examination of inter-gender power relationships. While feminists (especially in the 70s and 80s) were urging women to find empowering relationships (i.e., blue-pill betas who would let themselves be controlled) some of the men exposed to this idea took it to heart. Only when the feminists _really _started to dissect the power relationships with men within society, they got to the individual level, wherein the issue of sex went from an abstract societal issue, and became an actual tool of power, and . . . they balked. They couldn't face the one area of male-female relations wherein the female actually controlled the relationship. Once the abusive aspects were removed from consideration (spousal rape and sexual abuse, among others) and the male-female dynamic was examined more closely, they realized that women did, indeed, have the upper hand when it came to the control of sex in the relationship. 

So they backed off, making sex "an incredibly personal decision too intimate to be considered on a wholesale basis", and tacitly taking sex "off the table" in gender discussions (save for reproductive rights). Their attitude towards sex became: "How much sex should a married couple have? As much as the woman wants."

But that didn't happen in a vacuum. Some men, either misguided betas or alphas seeking to understand, began actually applying the self-actualization and self-realization the feminists were advocating for their sisters . . . and that's when things started happening. But not the way the feminists would have liked. Instead of becoming more beta and controllable, some of these guys discovered their masculine core, and they liked it. With earnest examination of their inner landscapes they embraced, rather than rejected, their masculine nature and sought to explore it through a variety of means. Since this also coincided with the first big "Divorce Boom", it led to a lot of men using the lessons implicit in this exploration to formulate the whole "manning up" ideal. 

Just an interesting observation.


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## BigBadWolf

Triumph said:


> My question is, as succinctly as possible, what are the fundamentals?


Good question.

Fundamental to being a man:

Most succinctly, the fundamental is when you as a man realize YOU are your own yardstick for success or failure, no one else.

Not your parents. Not your wife. Not feminism. Not any other human being or group on this earth is qualified to do this, to define you as a man. Only you. And you can do this better than anyone else, it is both your privilege and your responsibility to yourself.


Fundamentals concerning being a happily married man (quoting myself from an older post):

1. First, concerning yourself, put in place what needs to be put into place, take care of what needs to be taken care of, delegate what needs to be delegated, have a vision or goal for yourself (for example, imagine where you want to be in 5, 10, 20 years), and have much the same goal for your marriage, your family, etc, and then roll up your sleeves to make your vision or goal your own reality (education, work, hobbies, family life, sexual relations, etc). 

2. Once you take care of number 1, then don't take sh!t from anyone, and that includes your wife, about any of it.

That is being a happily married man in a nutshell.


Fundamental to masculine sexual attraction:

Women are irresitibly attracted to the man that BOTH knows what he wants, and is of the attitude and ability to pursue what he wants.

Whether to call this dominance, or confidence, or ambitious, or successful, whatever, a man such as this is sexually attractive to a woman.

The man opposite of this, the man who is apathetic, or indecisive, or always deferring to his wife/girlfriend or others, or who perhaps maybe he does have an opinion or desire but lacks the skill, wisdom, strength, determinition, boldness, courage, MONEY, or otherwise ability to pursue his desires, he is the opposite of sexual attraction and will in fact REPULSE a woman. 

A woman is literally repulsed and will resent a weak man, even if she merely believes he is weak or merely his attitude is weak.

As in the mythology of old, the shining knight must slay the dragon to win the maiden. This is just that simple, and is truth even in our modern day.


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## AFEH

turnera said:


> I thought we were referring to the concepts of manning up.


I’ve stopped being amazed at the vast majority of women that just don’t get what the men here mean by “manning up”. Now I just accept they don’t get it.


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## turnera

I guess so. I thought manning up referred to your relationship with your woman. You're always gonna be 'manned up' when you're around your guy friends; it's when you're with a woman that you stop owning your own belief system.


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## IanIronwood

turnera said:


> I guess so. I thought manning up referred to your relationship with your woman. You're always gonna be 'manned up' when you're around your guy friends; it's when you're with a woman that you stop owning your own belief system.


Not so. The two are inextricably intertwined. "Manning Up" is a process, a side-effect of which is a more beneficial relationship with the woman in your life. But single dudes can (and should) "man up" before they get involved with a woman to spare themselves much heartbreak later. And being in the company of your male friends doesn't automatically turn into a pissing contest every time. I've had some of the most inspiring and emotional conversations of my life with my "boys".

"Manning Up" is about owning and taking responsibility for yourself and your masculinity: your aggression, your cunning, your ambition, your strengths, your weaknesses. It's a process of self-discovery and the development of profound self-control, the result of which is a far, far greater confidence in your abilities. Greater confidence is always inspiring and sexy for women, so that's very helpful, but the essence of "manning up" has little to do with them specifically. It has far more to do with reclaiming a masculinity damaged by three decades of bad press and misunderstandings, coupled with some just hateful anti-male rhetoric that has seeped into the groundwater of the mainstream collective consciousness. 

Consider: how many TV sitcoms can you name which have a wise wife, smart, wisecracking children (or dumb, wisecracking children), a funny neighbor and . . . an absolute self-important, self-injuring, borderline-retarded husband-and-father? Men, as such, get very little respect in our culture and a disproportionate part of the blame. When was the last time a competent, intelligent alpha-male was portrayed as a father and husband? Those are just symptoms of a much greater problem, but seriously, next time you're flipping through channels, stop on a sitcom and see how long it takes for someone to insult/berate the dad in the family. 

So Manning Up is combating not only our self-imposed negative perceptions on a personal level, but challenging the idea that all men are stupid, lazy idiots with no imagination and a death wish. They're the first to do something stupid and then try to lie about it, which of course is repaired only when the "wise wife" steps in and intervenes. The last "real man" in a sitcom I can think of who gave as good as he got was Ricky Ricardo on *I Love Lucy*, and even that was iffy.

This culture doesn't particularly like men, as men. Manning up involves challenging that notion at a very basic level, and countering it with competence, intelligence, and self-control. 

Just musing.


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## jayde

A couple things. . . I read a 'marriage article' about why women leave men. One piece of advice was that men should include wives in all aspects of the man's life and all decisions he makes. This sounded creepy to me. And, my wife said the same thing and that she had no interest in being involved in all my decisions. Careful what it published out there obviously.

I think also that our society has been conditioned to believe that women are more in touch with their feelings, and by extension, the feelings of the relationship and of the men involved. After 20 years of marriage, my wife still doesn't get my sex drive (even the 'big' stuff - like I need it at least every couple of days). and other comments here confirm that guys' feelings and sense of manliness is not and cannot be understood by women.

And lastly, I'm really glad that Dr Pepper has a new soda for us guys . . . Dr Pepper 10. Clearly they've been reading TAM.


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## Conrad

What makes you think she doesn't "get it"?

Sounds to me like she just doesn't care.


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## jayde

No . . . it would seem that she cares (or else she wouldn't have said anything???). 

She said something along the lines that I seem 'edgy' if we don't do it every couple/few days . . . as if this was something odd. It seemed a revelation to her that sex/or lack thereof would affect a guy in some manner outside of the bedroom. And I'm sure some women are the same way.


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