# Should I stay, or should I go? Marriage without children



## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Hello all, hoping to get some feedback on some thoughts I'm currently having in my life, regarding my marriage and lack of children.

Quick background: I'm early 40's, wife later 40's. We've been married 6 years. Have unsuccessfully tried to start a family, went through IVF and have begun the process of adoption. With the wife's age, she's now at the point where she wants to cease the adoption process, she just thinks she's too old and that no one will choose us. I know it's an older age to be thinking about starting a family, but we're young for our age! She was married once briefly in her early 20's, this is the 1st marriage for me.

We were both on the same page regarding kids when we got married, that we'd give it a shot but it wasn't a make-or-break proposition. Maybe it's our lack of success, and maybe it's me starting to feel my male "bio clock" ticking, but this appears to be changing for me. I'm now feeling like if I miss the chance to become a father, I'll regret it and miss out on something that I'd find fullfilling, and possibly resent my wife and/or my decision to marry her in the first place. Outside of this issue, we have a great relationship. 

So, now I'm feeling like I may have to leave, to chase this idea of fatherhood. I don't want to leave, and have many reasons to stay, but also cannot get the thought out of my head that I'm missing out! All the cliches come to mind also, about "no reward without risk", or "chasing dreams", or "making life happen", as in not sitting back and accepting things, but going out and making things. I'm exceptionally good at over-analyzation, and go back and forth with reasons and rationals on both sides, whether to stay or go. 

Looking for any insight from anyone who's gone through a similar scenario. I know that if I leave, but the time it's all sorted out and I'm ready to move on, I'll be mid-forties. Like I said, I'm young for my age and a catch, but will anyone want to marry a mid-forties dude?  I also know there's great risk of jumping on the first uterus that comes along, and ending up with a crappy relationship. I know many people who have the kid, but a horrible marriage. But.............I also know that things COULD turn out great, that we make our own lives, and I could indeed make it happen and it could all be worth it in the end.

So, to stay or to go? I know the "right" answer is likely inside me, but hard for me to uncover it. Thanks for any responses!


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

No one can tell you what you should do or how you should feel. You need to keep discussing this openly with your wife - meaning, share with her the thoughts you have written here. I'm sure she would want to take your thoughts into account, especially if you are really thinking of ending your marriage over this and that you are reaching this point.

I can tell you that at my age (44), I can't begin to imagine _starting _a family now with a baby or toddler. But if her primary concern is that she doesn't think anyone would choose you and her to adopt based on your ages, maybe you could look into adopting older children who typically have far fewer options for adoption. Also, you can look into being a foster family, which could help you with your nurturing instincts.

Basically, keep talking and exploring what you two really, truly want, and what you two can make work for you.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The right answer is Stay.
You don't divorce a wife who cannot produce children... Who are you the King of England? If you and your wife become incapacitated or die, that would not be fair to the child, and the probability of those bad things increases with age. You can become foster parents or do some volunteer work that can be equally fulfilling as a child.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Tad,
Have you talked to her about these feelings of yours? Don't you think she has a right to know?

What if you offered to be the primary care giver for any child you adopt? Would she (and you) go for that?


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

Why not adopt a baby
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

you are missing out on fatherhood and that is a bummer.

but you mentioned that it wasn't that important if you did then great if you didn't that was ok also. stick with your plan so you guys can't have children its not the end of the world enjoy yourselves travel/pick up an expensive hobby(kids are costly).

or if you really want to make a difference be a foster parent there are many neglected kids who need a caring responsible parental figure in there life. and you sound like you would be great at it.


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

You say that she is in her upper 40's and you have been married for 6 years, which means she was already in her early 40's when you married her. Certainly you had to realize when you got married that your time for children was very limited (for both of you). The risk of birth defects goes way up for both men and women after 40. Not to mention her fertility.

From this perspective it doesn't look like kids were the first thing on your mind when you got married and now you are lamenting the fact that you don't (or won't) have any. It sounds a bit like you are feeling sorry for yourself.

Accept you life as it comes to you every day and live it to fullest (with or without kids).


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

My parents had me at age 44 (oops  ) Most kids thought my mom was my Grandma...the generation gap was too much for either of my parents to "keep current" with the times.....I buried my father at age 17 and my mother at age 22.....food for thought.....It is kind of rough on a child to have the "oldest parent".


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Tad,
> Have you talked to her about these feelings of yours? Don't you think she has a right to know?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

charlie18 said:


> You say that she is in her upper 40's and you have been married for 6 years, which means she was already in her early 40's when you married her. Certainly you had to realize when you got married that your time for children was very limited (for both of you). The risk of birth defects goes way up for both men and women after 40. Not to mention her fertility.
> 
> From this perspective it doesn't look like kids were the first thing on your mind when you got married and now you are lamenting the fact that you don't (or won't) have any. It sounds a bit like you are feeling sorry for yourself.
> 
> Accept you life as it comes to you every day and live it to fullest (with or without kids).


Right, kids were not the reason we got married. We got married because we were(are) in love, and are excellent partners for each other. But, if there's anything constant in life, it's change! I feel differently now, it's more important to me. Is that "feeling sorry" for myself? I don't know, I don't think so. Your last line resonates with me, I am the type of person to remain positive and always thankful for the many other ways I'm blessed in my life. It's just that the fact remains: I can still father a child, and want to.


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## lovinmyhubby223 (Jan 31, 2012)

Well it sound like you’ve thought this through and you’ve weighed all the options. It truly is a dilemma and unfortunately for your part it’s a crap shoot either way. You could stay and try either natural or adoption and not be successful at either one. Or you could go and risk being in an unhappy marriage still with no guarantee that you’ll have children. 

I feel for you, really I do because this is one of those things that, and I hate to use this phrase but; you should have thought about that earlier. I mean life is short but fertility life is even shorter and it’s not something that any of us have the luxury of waiting until we’re 40 to make any definite decisions about.

You know what your choices are and even the possible outcomes of those choices. We here at TAM can tell you what we think, give you advise and even make suggestions however the ultimate decision is yours. 

Good luck to you. I hope and pray everything works out for you… and your wife. 

BTW did you mean for the title of your post to have a Clash reference? I was a big fan.


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## charlie18 (Mar 12, 2012)

You say:"It's just that the fact remains: I can still father a child, and want to."

That is innate to manhood and will never go away. It is part of your being. That yearning will never stop. The question is; can you live with that?


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

charlie18 said:


> You say:"It's just that the fact remains: I can still father a child, and want to."
> 
> That is innate to manhood and will never go away. It is part of your being. That yearning will never stop. The question is; can you live with that?


Exactly Charlie, the innate yearning to do what male species do. I'm sure I could talk myself into living with that, but that's the quandary, I shouldn't have to talk myself into living in a way that I want to live. On the flip side, I'm well aware that I'd be giving up a lot(more details than I'm noting here) if I move on, and impacting lives other than my own.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> The best thing you can do is continue to discuss the way you feel with her. Also try to get her to resolve her feeling about children and why she is now giving up. I understand her being at an age where she can no longer give birth but it is never too late for adoption, and while fostering can be very fulfilling it can also be very unfulfilling. My dad is fostering 3 kids right now and some days he loves them, but some days he wants to toss them out. It is difficult to get past the severe emotional issues that a lot of foster children will carry.
> 
> Although you didn't marry so you could have children, both of you had it in mind as an option. You said it wasn't a deal breaker when you got married but that has changed and you shouldn't feel bad for that. People change. You need to realize that it is your wife changing just as much as you. She has been beaten down by the fact that she can't bear children which is probably a blown to her womanhood. You two were unsure about children. You changed your mind one way. She changed hers the other.
> 
> ...


Excellent response, thank you! Very true, it's been a blow to my wife to not be able to conceive, especially considering we went the IVF route, and were told we had an excellent chance of it working. Good point about her changing as well, and not just me. We haven't talked surrogacy, but I'll research it. Sounds expensive!


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## MickeyD (Feb 19, 2012)

Tadmown said:


> I know the "right" answer is likely inside me, but hard for me to uncover it. Thanks for any responses!


Get a dog.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

MickeyD said:


> Get a dog.


Hilarious.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

My wife and I have two homemade children and one adopted child. The first thing I will say is how I always answer when asked, and this is a heart-searched, long pondered, and 100% true answer: There is absolutely NO difference in the way we love our homemade children, and our adopted child. It is the same. I am sure most adoptive parents would tell you the same thing if asked.

Our adoption was domestic with a goal of being open, so we went through 4 years of the emotional roller coaster of "Can we show your infomation to this young woman?" and the high hopes and anticipation, then the crushing blow of having them come back to you and say "She didn't choose you." It hurts every time ... and several times, we were ready to give up - just didn't think we could handle it again. We were pretty discouraged by the time we finally got the call back and they said, "We have some good news for you. She looked at your info, and just fell in love with your family. She would like to meet you for dinner and present you with her information. Congratulations! You've been matched!" (Okay, honestly, I'm getting tears in my eyes remembering and writing this.) My wife, my daughters and I all snoopy danced all though the house that afternoon. 

My wife has told me several times that it was easier to have biological children than it was to adopt, but we didn't plan our family that way because it was easier ... 

The process of domestic adoption is INCREDIBLY discouraging sometimes, and it can be INCREDIBLY painful and disappointing at times. We were a difficult couple for many birthmothers to come to grips with I think, but there was one who was looking for a family just like ours. We only needed one.

Your wife's discouragement is not a surprise to anyone who has been a part of a difficult-to-match adoptive family. That doesn't mean you can't be matched, though. And if you don't want to stay with the rollercoaster of domestic adoption, there are international adoptions, but they have their own set of difficulties. That's a choice only your family can make.

I would really encourage you to see the disappointment as normal and hope you will continue on, and even if things don't work out, I would encourage you to stay true to your wife. This is every bit as difficult and disappointing to her as it is to you. And besides, in marriages, there are disappointments in life that you share. This is a big one if it turns out to be a disappointment, but in marriage, you face the disappoinments together, and move past them together.

That's my opinion for what it's worth. So far as what to do to decide about the adoption: Does your agency work like the one I described? Or are you going through a private adoption process? If an agency, do they have counseling to help deal with the disappointment? Or is there another source you could seek the counseling. If you're hearing the "She didn't choose you," then only someone who has gone through that a few times can really understand how devastating that is after getting your hopes up so high knowing you are being presented. If you've had several of those, then I would definitely look at what support is available through the process. Some people are matched the first try, and some take a while. It's hard for the ones that take a while, and support might be needed.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Angel5112 said:


> Beautifully written shy_guy!
> 
> How goes it Tad?


Hi Angel!
Thanks for touching base. I agree, shy_guy's post was awesome. I want to continue through the adoption process, and intend to talk with the wife again about this. We went to an intro meeting last night, on becoming foster parents. Huge need, and we're both interested. I'm worried, though, that I'm hoping that this would turn into an adoption, and there's no guaranty of that. If we go through this process, and it doesn't turn into adoption, there's another couple years gone, and I'm that much older! 

So, for me at this point, the thing on my mind is leaving. I agree with shy_guy, that you work through tough times in a marriage together. But, this is a pretty major thing! It's not like I just don't like her snoring. I'm not sure I'm ready to accept that fact that I'll be put into a box, having never been a parent. And, before I go into that box, I don't want to be sitting on the porch in a rocking chair, having regrets over this.


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

Tad, it sounds like there is some grieving on your part, too. That's also very normal ... but knowing it's normal doesn't make it any easier, does it? Is there an option for you to attend IC to help deal with that? Most adoption agencies have support and sometimes even counseling to help deal with these issues around infertility and the discouragement of the adoption process.

Seeing your concern, and recognizing that, is there an option for your wife and you to get into the program with one of the adoption agencies that does not do adoptions where you are waiting for someone to choose you? For example, have you checked with Dillon International? or any of the international agencies? Is that an option for you? It might help to begin to feel like you are on a direct path instead of just being at someone else's mercy right now. That might be something to discuss and investigate. If not Dillon, then search for others and check out their requirements for adoptive families.

What you are in is a difficulty. Snoring would be an inconvenience (in most cases). What you're feeling is what a difficulty feels like, and yours is a big one right now I know. However; if you left your wife and met another, you do realize that 1 in 6 couples has fertility problems of some sort, right? There is the possiblity of this coming up in another relationship. If you chose to adopt again, then many agencies put a minimum number of years on your marriage to be considered as adoptive parents. Of course, that doesn't rule out the possibility of private adoption, but you have that same option right now, if you can help your wife deal with the discouragement she is feeling. Her discouragement is also real, so support and possibly counseling may benefit her as well.

Let me ask one more thing: Is it possible to share any part of this with your wife? Even if you had to delete this thread and start over, would she be interested in engaging with us in conversation here? (I realize you may not want her to see what is in this thread if you bring her here - up to your judgement). I'm not a counselor, but I wouldn't mind engaging in conversation either in the public forum, or via PM to talk about the difficulties of the adoption process is that is helpful. At some point, though, counseling may be what is needed. And whatever course of action is taken or said, the decision on what to do with the adoption is yours - I'm not going to try to push either of you in any way on that one.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

shy_guy said:


> Tad, it sounds like there is some grieving on your part, too. That's also very normal ... but knowing it's normal doesn't make it any easier, does it? Is there an option for you to attend IC to help deal with that? Most adoption agencies have support and sometimes even counseling to help deal with these issues around infertility and the discouragement of the adoption process.
> 
> Seeing your concern, and recognizing that, is there an option for your wife and you to get into the program with one of the adoption agencies that does not do adoptions where you are waiting for someone to choose you? For example, have you checked with Dillon International? or any of the international agencies? Is that an option for you? It might help to begin to feel like you are on a direct path instead of just being at someone else's mercy right now. That might be something to discuss and investigate. If not Dillon, then search for others and check out their requirements for adoptive families.
> 
> ...


You sound like a very wise, if not shy, guy! 

_"if you left your wife and met another, you do realize that 1 in 6 couples has fertility problems of some sort, right?" _- This is a great point, and yes I've thought about it. In my initial post, I indicated I'm pretty analytical, probably to a fault. I've thought through a lot of scenarios in my head. I'm well aware there's no guarantee of any success if I do move on. Will I even find someone else? Will she also not be able to give birth? Will I have settled for the 1st available woman to come along(since a child would be a motivating factor) and pick someone because she could give birth, and not because we had a good relationship? All legit questions, all questions I've thought of. 

I guess it comes down to the notion that at least I will have tried everything I personally can try. My wife feels she's exhausted her options(unless we revisit adoption). I feel I have not exhausted my options, because I'm still able to move on to someone else, if I would choose this. If I've tried everything and failed, so be it. Like I said earlier, not sure I want the regret that could come at a later age, if I don't give it a shot. There certainly is risk, but it's also true that we can never succeed at something that we don't even attempt. If it sounds like I'm convincing myself, yes and no. I can make a good case to stay too! That's the problem.

Cheers!


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

It sounds like your mind is pretty much made up. I can't help but think about your wife in all of this. But even in thinking just of you, how many years would you be giving up on? Speaking just for me, having that person to grow old with always was a big part of my goals. That is part of your analysis, too, is it not?


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

I feel sorry for your wife. I can only imagine the emotional crap all this is putting her through. It's all about YOU, isn't it? It would serve you right if you left her for a younger, fertile woman and got your precious bundle of joy only to get dumped for a younger, richer man and all you'll have left is an alimony payment and child support. 

Or maybe you'll somehow become "inconvenient" to someone else, be it through a terminal disease or just through the aging process and be left to deal with it alone. 

Payback sure can be a b!tch.  I hope you get what's coming to you in the end for acting out the way you are. Leave your wife already and let her find someone who looks at her as being more than a brood sow.


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## Nigel (Mar 14, 2012)

I'm in a similar position except y wife and I are the same age. I don't see how you can even consider leaving your wife over this. Unless, that is you no longer love her. It's just life I'm afraid some people can bang out kids like there is no tomorrow, others like my wife and me cant even have one. There isn't even a medical reason for it, I suppose we are just unlucky. I understand your hurt but the answer isn't to leave somebody you love and care for just so you can find somebody to have a baby with. Down that road lies heartbreak disappointment and Eventually a broken relationship with the child as the undeserving victim. I would seriously consider some form of counselling to help you both come to terms with your status. Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustWaiting (Jun 28, 2011)

Do you have Any nieces or nephews? Have you volunteered at an orphanage? Have you signed on to serve as foster parents? And I don't say this as a joke, have you signed on as a sperm donor? If you remarry, have a child, and the new wife leaves you, will you be more fulfilled? My wife will collect social security before our youngest finishes his second year of college. He's a blessing, but parenting as you age and your energy levels and interests change is different from parenting when you are young. Think long and hard, and perhaps try one of those rent-a-kid options I mentioned before you end a good marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Freak On a Leash said:


> I feel sorry for your wife. I can only imagine the emotional crap all this is putting her through. It's all about YOU, isn't it? It would serve you right if you left her for a younger, fertile woman and got your precious bundle of joy only to get dumped for a younger, richer man and all you'll have left is an alimony payment and child support.
> 
> Or maybe you'll somehow become "inconvenient" to someone else, be it through a terminal disease or just through the aging process and be left to deal with it alone.
> 
> Payback sure can be a b!tch.  I hope you get what's coming to you in the end for acting out the way you are. Leave your wife already and let her find someone who looks at her as being more than a brood sow.


Dear Lord, are you for real?! You've chosen a very appropriate screen name. Your post oozes pessimism. If you've read the entire thread, you'd have a clue that it isn't "only about me", and I haven't even put out many details on why I want to stay(for the sake of brevity). Things like how amazing my wife is, how much I love her, etc. I have an innate desire to be a father, guess that makes me....human? Since we only go around in this life once, I'm having trouble coming to terms with not being able to do that, and am having all types of thoughts. This is an anonymous discussion board, where you can lay out your thoughts in an effort to gain some clarity. Speaking of getting what's coming to you, try not to see everything in life through such a negative and pessimistically tainted lense.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Tadmown said:


> Dear Lord, are you for real?! You've chosen a very appropriate screen name. Your post oozes pessimism. If you've read the entire thread, you'd have a clue that it isn't "only about me", and I haven't even put out many details on why I want to stay(for the sake of brevity). Things like how amazing my wife is, how much I love her, etc. I have an innate desire to be a father, guess that makes me....human? Since we only go around in this life once, I'm having trouble coming to terms with not being able to do that, and am having all types of thoughts. This is an anonymous discussion board, where you can lay out your thoughts in an effort to gain some clarity. Speaking of getting what's coming to you, try not to see everything in life through such a negative and pessimistically tainted lense.


You bet I'm for real. Not liking what I have to say, eh? Maybe because it's hitting too close to a nerve? 

Well, read on: I don't really give a damn about all the wonderful things you are THINKING about writing about your wife..FIRST thing you do is come on here and state how you are thinking of dumping her and your marriage because you can't have kids so that's what I'm going on. Care to edit that a bit? 

She's not able to have kids and has faced reality. Or maybe your wife just doesn't want to be potty training a kid when she's 50 or being assumed that she's her child's grandmother? Maybe she's accepting life for what is? Maybe she doesn't want to be be put through the emotional wringer anymore and move on. Maybe THAT'S why she's stopped obsessing about having kids. You think it's easy going through in-vitro and dealing with infertility treatments? You think it's easy being pregnant in your late 40s, when a woman is actually on the threshold of menopause? Or how the fact the chances are greatly increased of genetic defects in a baby when you are in this age group? Maybe she doesn't want to go through the emotional hell that adoption can be? 

Now, to add to this lovely scenario, you are thinking of LEAVING her because life is not living up to your expectations. So you want to trash your marriage because YOU aren't getting what YOU want out of life! You talk about putting your wife through more hell! You are considering getting a SURROGATE to birth her baby for her and putting her through MORE emotional crap? Have you thought about how this will make HER feel? 

And then you aren't even thinking about how it's going to affect your kids when they are graduating high school at the same time you are applying for social security and how THEY will probably have to take care of YOU at the same time they are starting families. Once again, ALL ABOUT YOU. 

How about stepping away and taking a good look in the mirror and seeing what life really is all about. "For better or for worse..In sickness or in health"..remember those words? 

We are all HUMAN. Don't throw that rationale at me! We all have disappointments we have to live with and deal with in our lives. Part of life is dealing with this. Why don't YOU be optimistic and realize that you can have a good life with a woman you claim to love even without kids. Many people do. It's not the end of the world. 

You are treating your wife like some sort of machine that you can trade in for a newer, better model that will give you the performance that you want....well she isn't, she's HUMAN and had an EXPECTATION of staying married regardless of whether or not she could have kids. Gee, I guess that's not reasonable because it doesn't fit YOUR life plan huh? 

You aren't going to change my mind. I think you are acting out in a disgusting manner and you can spew forth platitudes and justify your position all you want. Doesn't change a thing. Get real yourself. Take all this money you are blowing pursuing your "dream" and go on vacation with your wife and try and recall what love and marriage is REALLY about.

And then go for some counseling and get your own messed up head straightened out. Your wife is fine, the problem is all you.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Freak On a Leash said:


> You bet I'm for real. Not liking what I have to say, eh? Maybe because it's hitting too close to a nerve?
> 
> Well, read on: I don't really give a damn about all the wonderful things you are THINKING about writing about your wife..FIRST thing you do is come on here and state how you are thinking of dumping her and your marriage because you can't have kids so that's what I'm going on. Care to edit that a bit?
> 
> ...


You've drawn all sorts of conclusions, based on very little information. Feel as you will, I similarly don't give a damn what you think.


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Angel5112 said:


> Wow...
> 
> If his wife suddenly gives up on what they have been working towards for years, is he suppose to just fall in line? I have a friend who is going through similar situation, only the roles are reversed. She is infertile and wants to adopt. Her H is adamant that he doesn’t want to adopt. If she decides she wants children badly enough she will either adopt independently or leave him. Does that make her insensitive, inconsiderate, selfish, self centered, etc, basically all the things you are implying that Tad is, because she would leave her H to pursue her dreams of having children?


I don't know how old your friends are but it's not like the OP and his wife are just starting out and 25 years old..they are both in their 40s and his wife is in her late 40s. At this point, most people are done starting a family and thinking about what they are going to do AFTER their kids leave the nest. Maybe the wife is just done emotionally and mentally pursuing this dream and can't deal with it anymore?

He seems to be pushing this beyond the point of rationality. I've seen this before. My brother-in-law and his wife were in a similar situation. She couldn't conceive and they were an older couple and looked to adopt and found they couldn't because of their age. He became so obsessed and took it to the point where he destroyed their marriage. Eventually she couldn't deal with him and they divorced. Shame, because they were actually a great couple before all this happened. He became depressed and started drinking after they divorced and wound up alone and penniless. Fortunately she found someone else that had no problem with her not being able to conceive. 

So THAT is what I mean by "karma" and "payback". It can be a real b!tch. 

Now the OP figures he can just go out and father children because he's lucky enough to be a guy without an age limit and heck, it's easy enough to find a woman, right? 

So that's his "dream" and despite his marriage being good otherwise, life is short and he's gonna make this choice when push comes to shove. That's what I'm getting out of this thread, and yes, I've read it all. 

IMO, it doesn't matter if it's the wife or the husband who can't have kids or who gives up...just walking away from an otherwise great relationship, which he has indicated this is, seems like a rather harsh response. He says he loves his wife and otherwise everything is good but they can't have kids so it might be time to leave. He seems to be talking himself into this mentality. 

A lot of people seem to say as I do... One person said "Who are you, the King of England?" I'm not alone in my sentiments, I'm just laying it out more strongly then most. 



> He didn't say he is leaving her.


Maybe he hasn't come to that conclusion yet but from what I've read, he's thinking very strongly about it and giving his wife a strong signal..my heart goes out to her. I can only imagine how she feels to be heading into menopause and feeling pain about not having kids and have THAT piled on. 



> He said that his desire to have children is great enough that it is making him second guess being with her. Also, he isn’t second guessing their marriage because she can’t have children. He is second guessing it because she SUDDENLY gave up. For some people it isn't so easy to give up on their dreams. Would it be better for him to stay with her and resent her for the rest of their marriage? If he thinks this is too big of an issue to overcome, then he is doing the right thing by leaving. There is no such thing as unconditional love and YOU are living a dream if you think there is.


I have no such thoughts about unconditional love. Believe me, my marriage dictates otherwise. I've had to accept all sorts of things with regards to it and if I allowed myself to obsess I'd be committed in a mental institute now. 

That said, I think that if all other things are good in their marriage, then he's making a very rash and selfish decision and hurting someone he claims to love. But hey, he's entitled but as they say "Karma Sucks." 

He wants opinions and my .02 is that he'd be making a huge mistake and that his wife doesn't deserve it. I've read dozens of posts and threads here about women and men who have lost their marriages for one reason for another and would give anything to get it back, so I guess if you do love someone and have an otherwise good relationship then it's not something you should just throw away lightly. 

And I don't like the OP's "trade it in for a newer, better model" mentality. That's what I'm getting here out of his posts. Maybe I'm wrong but that's the problem with the written word, we all interpret things differently.



Tadmown said:


> My wife feels she's exhausted her options(unless we revisit adoption). I feel I have not exhausted my options, because I'm still able to move on to someone else, if I would choose this. If I've tried everything and failed, so be it.


So what does that tell you?


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Angel5112 said:


> I also don't think he has a trade her in for a newer model mentality. Maybe it was a poor choice of words or maybe it was just him trying to rationalize and organize his thoughts, but I think he is really warring with that fact that he can still have children if A. His wife would change her mind, or B. He left her and found someone willing or adopted independently. He is at a fork in the road and can’t figure out which way to go. His dream of having children or the woman he loves. I think he is trying to find advice on how to get both.
> 
> Either way, I don't think him trying to figure out whether or not he can live without having children makes him a bad person or mean that he will get his via karma, even if he does choose to leave his wife. I do believe there is a good possibility he would regret it, but there is also a chance that he won’t.
> 
> One thing you do have to realize is that he is feeling the pain of not having children as well. This isn’t all about her, which is kind of what you are making it. I can appreciate your side of it though. She is definitely dealing with a lot right now and this will only add to her feelings of inadequacy.


I guess it's all in how you read it. He asked for opinions and I put my .02 in. My input is worth what he paid for it. I seem to be be getting a different vibe out of this thread than most. :scratchhead:

I don't know why this thread rubbed me the wrong way. Usually I'm pretty open minded and reasonable and able to see both sides of an issue but this one really got me p!ssed off. I'm not projecting my own personal experiences on this because my situation bears no such resemblence to the one in this thread. I guess I just feel for the wife and see things in a different light. 

So since I can't be objective I'll bow out gracefully. I've had my say and I don't doubt that there are many who vehemently disagree with what I've said but I'lll bet there's a few who do agree. I guess it depends on your perspective. Thanks for listening.


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

Having kids is awesome. Having a good relationship is also great.

No right or wrong answers....just lots of opinions as to what people feel is right or wrong. You have to go with how you feel.

Also, in my opinion no need to worry much about "karma".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## shy_guy (Jan 25, 2012)

I'd like to chime in again here. 

Guys, Freak On A Leash is very emotional in her responses, and I would really expect her to be emotional. She is a woman who is empathizing with the OP's wife. You know what? I empathize with the OP's wife as well. You can focus on FOAL's emotion if you'd like and get caught up in arguing with her, but you know, when I read her content, it makes a lot of sense - there's a lot of value in the perspective she's bringing to the conversation. There are vows that are made, and there is another person (another real human) involved in this that is not here to represent herself in the conversation.

Yes, it is a child, and I understand the desire to be a father/parent. However; as someone said, this is life, and this is the hand we're dealt. I understand you're going to be disappointed, but if you love your wife, you have to put yourself in her position and understand what you're going to do to her if you leave her over this. Do you think it will make you a better person to break your vows because this fits your definition of a "big problem" (as opposed to a small problem like snoring). 

Following feelings is the surest way I can think of to get yourself into a really bad situation. I think you have to think. Personally, I'm big on keeping your committments. When it comes to committments, the marriage vows that I've always known have included keeping yourself only to him/her in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, for better or for worse, etc. I have never read a wedding vow where one person promised to give the other one children. It's understood that this is a chance you take when you take your vows. I understand Freak On A Leash's point. 

I think if you take the focus off of the emotion on her comments, you can see her point. I think if you put the focus back on her emotion for a moment, you can get a glimpse of the depth of hurt that is going to be dealt to the OPs wife if he chooses to leave her.

Nobody can choose that for him, but there absolutely is more than one person involved, and there absolutely is more than one person's feelings to consider ... and I don't know of marriage vows that say "until you no longer feel like it."

My 2 cents worth. Hear her for what it's worth. It's worth a lot in my reading.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Freak On a Leash said:


> I guess it's all in how you read it. He asked for opinions and I put my .02 in. My input is worth what he paid for it. I seem to be be getting a different vibe out of this thread than most. :scratchhead:
> 
> I don't know why this thread rubbed me the wrong way. Usually I'm pretty open minded and reasonable and able to see both sides of an issue but this one really got me p!ssed off. I'm not projecting my own personal experiences on this because my situation bears no such resemblence to the one in this thread. I guess I just feel for the wife and see things in a different light.
> 
> So since I can't be objective I'll bow out gracefully. I've had my say and I don't doubt that there are many who vehemently disagree with what I've said but I'lll bet there's a few who do agree. I guess it depends on your perspective. Thanks for listening.


It's not what you said, you actually didn't say anything profound. Nothing that hasn't already been thought about or discussed anyway. It's the way you say it, so full of rage, vitriol, spite, arrogance, all directed toward a situation so have no real understanding of.

For what it's worth(nothing to you, I'm sure), during each of the several times I've discussed this with my wife, she has been the one to tell me "it's not too late for you", and that though it would be difficult she "would understand" if this issue were to be one that's too big a hurdle for us to get over. She's mature enough to understand that life changes, people change. She's changed, and made a decision. Her decision affects people other than herself, in fact it affects the same people I'd affect *IF* I chose to leave. Why does she get that choice regarding the rest of our lives and I don't? Why is her choice any less "selfish" than you're accusing of mine?. I either accept her decision, fall in line, or have to make a far more difficult decision, or at least that's what the counselor we've talked to has said. Either way, posting on this website has been an attempt to sort out thoughts from a confusing and uncertain scenario. Your caustic verbal barrage has added no value whatsoever. But, that's how you roll.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

shy_guy said:


> I'd like to chime in again here.
> 
> Guys, Freak On A Leash is very emotional in her responses, and I would really expect her to be emotional. She is a woman who is empathizing with the OP's wife. You know what? I empathize with the OP's wife as well. You can focus on FOAL's emotion if you'd like and get caught up in arguing with her, but you know, when I read her content, it makes a lot of sense - there's a lot of value in the perspective she's bringing to the conversation. There are vows that are made, and there is another person (another real human) involved in this that is not here to represent herself in the conversation.
> 
> ...


Exactly shy_guy. Thoughtful evaluation of all possible scenarios. Please don't assume that just because I tend to analyze all angles, that I take my marital vows lightly or assume that I can just get out "whenever I feel like it", or because I'm not getting things the way I want them. Of course it's not that simple, and there are many variables involved. Thoughtful analysis is what I'm striving for, and that does have to include an analysis of the hard choices.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Freak On a Leash said:


> Ok..we'll leave it at that. I'm going on the information you've posted and you don't come off well at all.
> 
> So based on that, *I hope in the end your wife leaves you and finds someone who doesn't look at her like a worn out car that's easily traded in. *
> 
> I feel sorry for your wife and any kids you do have, God forbid.


Wow, you're a treat. You talk about karma, then make a statement like that? Not only are you arrogant and judgmental, you also dabble in hypocrisy! You got it all...


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## Freak On a Leash (Feb 19, 2010)

Tadmown said:


> Wow, you're a treat. You talk about karma, then make a statement like that? Not only are you arrogant and judgmental, you also dabble in hypocrisy! You got it all...


Yeah, you know all about me. Right.  You are such a :tool: Go crawl back under the rock from which you came. . I hope you get some incurable disease and rot from the inside out and die alone. 



Tadmown said:


> It's not what you said, you actually didn't say anything profound. Nothing that hasn't already been thought about or discussed anyway. It's the way you say it, so full of rage, vitriol, spite, arrogance, all directed toward a situation so have no real understanding of.



Pisses you off, doesn't it? Good.  At least you feel something, eh?


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## WhoHaveIBecome (Mar 9, 2012)

All I can tell you is to not do what I did. I cheated on my infertile wife and got the child I wanted desperately but it came at great cost. I think if children are important to you and your wife is infertile and opposed to adoption then you have to go. You will regret if for the rest of your life. 

Just ask your wife for a divorce first. There are plenty of single women in their 30s who want to start a family so it should not be difficult to find someone who wants what you want. People disagree on this but if you have a disagreement on something as important as children that is a valid reason for a divorce in my opinion.


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## 381917 (Dec 15, 2011)

Have ya'll thought about getting a surrogate?


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

_Damn, just realized it's a Zombie thread.....Braaaaaiiiiiinnnnnssss_



Despite my screen name, my Wife and I have no kids.

It wasn't by choice. We had planned to have kids, tried to have kids, wanted to have kids. In the end, it just wasn't meant to be.

I feel like it tore my wife up a lot more than it did me. My feeling, was that I had found the woman I wanted to spend my life with, the rest was just "Stuff" we had to deal with. She took a long time to move past the point that we could not, but eventually she was OK.

We made the decision to live "our" lives together and for ourselves. Resources that would have otherwise gone to the expense of children were now free and able to be used in other ways.

Now, we are the coolest Aunt and Uncle that a kid could ever have. We have a fantastic Godson (Wife has two) that we can borrow any time we feel the need for diaper changes and baby puke. We give great birthday and Christmas presents. Show up on our Harleys for graduations, first day of shool, birthdays,etc. We are the ones that come to the house and let the kids act like little devil's for a while.

I am not a Salmon that can't control my urge to swim upstream and propagate. I would never leave my Wife's side for something that was beyond my/her/our control.

And Freak may have been pretty blunt in her assessment, but she makes good points.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Tadmown said:


> Exactly Charlie, the innate yearning to do what male species do. I'm sure I could talk myself into living with that, but that's the quandary, I shouldn't have to talk myself into living in a way that I want to live. On the flip side, I'm well aware that I'd be giving up a lot(more details than I'm noting here) if I move on, and impacting lives other than my own.


You know, no one is guaranteed healthy children. When you married, you promised to love cherish and honor for better or for worse. I personally feel your self-centeredness around this baby issue, which was not paramount at the time of your marriage, tells a lot about your character. Please leave her. She will have the opportunity to find someone who actually loves her.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

KanDo said:


> You know, no one is guaranteed healthy children. When you married, you promised to love cherish and honor for better or for worse. I personally feel your self-centeredness around this baby issue, which was not paramount at the time of your marriage, tells a lot about your character. Please leave her. She will have the opportunity to find someone who actually loves her.


Yes, of course, it's my self-centeredness. Because, I'm the only one contemplating, right?! :slap: My wife has already made a decision, and made it without my input. We were on the same path, together, and she made the decision to stop. I get no say in this? The buck stops with the wife, eh? The husband just falls in line and accepts whatever life his wife allows him to have, is that how it's supposed to work? Or, should it be a partnership, where big decisions are made with mutual input? Because, that's what I think, and that's how it's always been before now. 

For Christs' sake, I don't want to leave, very likely am not going anywhere. No kidding we married "for better or worse", as does most everyone. Ever heard of people growing apart over time? Ever read any other thread on this board, where people are leaving for a host of different reasons, some arguably not as big/important as having kids? I'm not saying that's happening with us, but it's also not like either one of us has cheated. This is a legitimate issue.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Quite frankly it is not a legitimate issue. You haven't "grown apart" You wife tried for a baby as you yourself wrote and is now quite old in the fertility scale. In fact, Id say she went overboard. It's not like she wasn't willing and had some abrupt change of heart. It just didn't happen. And now, because of your narsacism, you are wanting to through her to the wayside. I repeat my statement. Please do divorce her. She will find someone much more worthy of her love and attention than you!


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## Carol/BC (Mar 23, 2012)

It seems to me you have lost your way. There are elements you want in your life - fatherhood - and instead you're questioning your marriage. 

I have this fantasy image in my head: you have been put in charge of a handful of wonderful but clueless teenage boys and they are looking to you for guidance. You describe the conundrum you're in...just as you've described it here. How's that going to look & feel as you talk it over with them? Especially the 'breaking the wedding vows' part.

You may be stuck with a path you would rather not choose - there's no guarantee you'll get the children you want. So, the question is, how can you best live your life in spite of that? I think you'll need to look hard and _own_ how you've contributed to your current pickle and also to acknowledge that in some ways, you've probably blamed the life/wife/karma/sunspots/whatever for being childless at this point. Those feelings can be sneaky and can cause an undercurrent of discontent and funk in a relationship. It can erode the 'teamwork' aspect of a marriage. 

In my mind, a guy who desperately wants to be a father is a wonderful thing indeed, and one that seems to be in short supply. Seems to me that there should be nothing stopping you from being that in some form...I'm wondering if there are some sort of stoppers going on. You painted an image of being at the end of your life, and in a perfect world, you were surrounded by a wife and children, maybe grandkids... a family you created, one you birthed and formed. I'm a painter, and when I start out to paint, I have an image in my head of the finished painting...they're always marvelous! But the actual painting of the damn thing - the proportions are off, the paint's gloppy... just like parenthood, I should think. The doing of it is a different creature indeed. Sometimes though, a piece of the painting turns out much better than I expected. Maybe that's how your path will turn out: the one you didn't want to travel will be more rewarding than you ever could have anticipated.

Perhaps make the determination that you will be the best ever father - or father figure - starting right now. Almost everyone I know has some person in their life that made a huge difference. Being a foster parent may be that for you - what a vital difference a good foster parent could make!

I think if you reevaluate your discontent you'll find your desires are your motivation to real fulfillment. Dear god, man - you've got a wife you love who is a good partner - a slight turn of your perspective and you'll have everything you're hoping for. And probably a lot more than you ever expected! Mentoring is like that.

I'd say 'good luck', but I don't think luck has anything to do with it. Go for it. Be a man of integrity, honesty and love and go teach it to a bunch of children.


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

KanDo said:


> Quite frankly it is not a legitimate issue. You haven't "grown apart" You wife tried for a baby as you yourself wrote and is now quite old in the fertility scale. In fact, *Id say she went overboard*. It's not like she wasn't willing and had some abrupt change of heart. It just didn't happen. And now, because of your narsacism, you are wanting to through her to the wayside. I repeat my statement. Please do divorce her. She will find someone much more worthy of her love and attention than you!


I always find it interesting and amusing, when people make statements of definitiveness regarding a situation where they have very little real knowledge or understanding. "You'd say she went overboard"?! :rofl: And, you'd know this how? Actually, she most certainly did have an abrupt change of heart, which she would tell you herself. Caught me completely off-guard, and has caused me to re-evaluate some things. That's called thoughtful contemplation...thinking. Give it a shot sometime.

And, it may certainly not be a legitimate issue for you, but you don't define what is/is not a legitimate decision for others. 

I'm "not worthy" of her love and attention because I'm analyzing my life based on the decision she made? Again - :rofl:


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Carol/BC said:


> It seems to me you have lost your way. There are elements you want in your life - fatherhood - and instead you're questioning your marriage.
> 
> I have this fantasy image in my head: you have been put in charge of a handful of wonderful but clueless teenage boys and they are looking to you for guidance. You describe the conundrum you're in...just as you've described it here. How's that going to look & feel as you talk it over with them? Especially the 'breaking the wedding vows' part.
> 
> ...


Hi Carol! We are in the beginning stages of becoming foster parents, and are tremendously interested in this, as we're well aware of the great need. Went to our initial meeting recently. Perhaps you're right, that this will be our path.


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## Coffee Amore (Dec 15, 2011)

Tadmown said:


> I always find it interesting and amusing, when people make statements of definitiveness regarding a situation where they have very little real knowledge or understanding. *"You'd say she went overboard"?! :rofl: And, you'd know this how? *Actually, she most certainly did have an abrupt change of heart, which she would tell you herself. Caught me completely off-guard, and has caused me to re-evaluate some things. That's called thoughtful contemplation...thinking. Give it a shot sometime.


I can't speak for KanDo but in your opening post you said she went through IVF. I don't know how many IVF rounds you've done, but IVF is usually the last step in having a biological child unless you're going with a gestational or traditional surrogate. You don't usually get to IVF without having done fertility drugs, IUI, etc. so she must have done those steps at some point. So yes, she made what seems to outsiders like a very good faith effort. I don't understand your mockery and sarcasm. 

Have you gone through IVF as a woman? Obviously not. I haven't either, but I know it takes a toll on a woman's psyche and body.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

Tadmown...I understand that you are in your early 40's, and that you want to be a dad SO FREAKIN BADLY...I get that BUT what is it you want FOR your unborn child? Do me a favor and do some calculations here...I will assume you are 43....lets say you get divorced, find the right woman and have a baby...guestimated age at birth is 45....this child then will:

Have a 55 year old parent taking them to middle school
Have a 55 year old parent TRY to help them thru "current issues" in school
Have a 63 year old parent celebrate thier graduation
HOPEFULLY have a 65+ year old parent helping them with their wedding, having kids, etc.

Are you healthy? Do any cancers or longevity run in your family? Have you thought of plans to help this child along should you not be able to provide for them in your 50's?

I'm not trying to anger you...just wondering if you thought about these things.....my parents did not....I was an accident, and they loved me the best they knew how, but left me at a young age due to circumstances they coulndn't control. I never planned to have children, but always knew if I changed my mind, it would have to be before the age of 35...PLEASE think of this child too....It sucks to be in your early 20's and have to tell people you "lost" your parents young...then explain...


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

Coffee Amore said:


> I can't speak for KanDo but in your opening post you said she went through IVF. I don't know how many IVF rounds you've done, but IVF is usually the last step in having a biological child unless you're going with a gestational or traditional surrogate. You don't usually get to IVF without having done fertility drugs, IUI, etc. so she must have done those steps at some point. So yes, she made what seems to outsiders like a very good faith effort. I don't understand your mockery and sarcasm.
> 
> *Have you gone through IVF as a woman?* Obviously not. I haven't either, but I know it takes a toll on a woman's psyche and body.


No. I've gone through IVF as a man. I was there every step of the way.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Tadmown said:


> I always find it interesting and amusing, when people make statements of definitiveness regarding a situation where they have very little real knowledge or understanding. "You'd say she went overboard"?! :rofl: And, you'd know this how? Actually, she most certainly did have an abrupt change of heart, which she would tell you herself. Caught me completely off-guard, and has caused me to re-evaluate some things. That's called thoughtful contemplation...thinking. Give it a shot sometime.
> 
> And, it may certainly not be a legitimate issue for you, but you don't define what is/is not a legitimate decision for others.
> 
> I'm "not worthy" of her love and attention because I'm analyzing my life based on the decision she made? Again - :rofl:


This will be my last posting in your thread. It is my learned opinion that a woman going through the effort and expense of rounds of IVF in pursuit of a baby qualifies as extreme effort to become pregnant. She didn't have an abrupt change of heart from your own postings as much as she reached her limit. But of course, it is all about you and your needs. Good luck


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## Tadmown (Mar 12, 2012)

notperfectanymore said:


> Tadmown...I understand that you are in your early 40's, and that you want to be a dad SO FREAKIN BADLY...I get that BUT what is it you want FOR your unborn child? Do me a favor and do some calculations here...I will assume you are 43....lets say you get divorced, find the right woman and have a baby...guestimated age at birth is 45....this child then will:
> 
> Have a 55 year old parent taking them to middle school
> Have a 55 year old parent TRY to help them thru "current issues" in school
> ...


I'm not angered, thanks!  In contrast to some others, you bring up well-reasoned points, and in a way that is non-conceited and non-confrontational. This is great, and a credit to you. To answer your question, yes I've thought about all your great points. Thank you for the reminder of them, all excellent points.

Cheers!


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