# Is this emotional abuse?



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

Hi, this is my first post. I'm here because I'm really confused and thought maybe other opinions would convince me.

My H and I are in our late thirties, have been a couple for 11 years and married for 6. We have no kids and we both work full-time. To most people, we probably look like we have a great life.

The thing is, my H has almost no tolerance for stress or frustration. Even good stress, like going on vacation or traveling to see family, throws him off. When he's stressed or frustrated, he'll either go into angry sulks (not speaking to me) or he'll get extremely negative and critical about everything or he'll explode into tantrums. Usually he'll switch between those three options. 

He's never been physically abusive--never touched me in anger at all--but he'll punch the dashboard in the car, or throw small things in the house, or pound his fist on the table, things like that. He's thrown things at our pets a couple times, even though normally he dotes on them. Most often he'll just scream and rage and swear. Usually his rages start out directed at something out of his control that's making him angry, like bad weather or bad traffic or computer problems, something like that, but if I try to sooth him or fix things or offer any advice/comfort/anything at all, he'll turn the rage on me, verbally. So most of the time I end up just freezing up, hoping to stay out of his way. If I can leave when he's like this, I do (go into another room or whatever) but he seems to do it a lot in the car, where I am trapped with him.

He's been like this as long as I've known him, but it seems to be slowly getting worse. His rages this last year have been worse and more directed at me than they used to be. Between these tantrums, if life is calm, he can be very sweet and loving, but I'm having a harder and harder time relaxing and trusting the sweet version of him. And that makes me feel guilty, like I'm not being a good wife and forgiving him....but then, he never apologizes, either. He just acts like nothing happened. Sometimes he claims to not remember his tantrums, and I don't know if he's just saying that or if he really doesn't remember.

I've asked my H a couple times to go to counseling with me, but he refuses and says he never will. He was in therapy for anxiety as a teenager and says he "knows what it's all about and won't do that sh&% again". I've just recently started going to therapy on my own. My therapist said that she's concerned there is emotional abuse in my relationship. I know there's definitely something WRONG in my relationship, but using the word "abuse" feels so melodramatic....when I think of abuse, I think of a man calling his wife a b---- and throwing her against a wall. My H doesn't lay a hand on me, and like I said, his rages often aren't even directed at me unless I put myself in his sights. But I'm intimidated and frightened by his anger, and each time he throws a tantrum, I feel like I pull further and further away from him emotionally, and it's getting harder and harder to find my way back. 

When I've tried to talk to my H about these things, he usually turns the discussion to be about how hard his life is (he has some medical problems, he hates his job, he hates where we live, etc, etc) and says that I'm not sympathetic enough and I don't try hard enough to understand him. I've told him repeatedly that his anger frightens me, and he always shrugs it off. The last time I said it, he answered, "I know you're afraid, but really, what are you worried about? I wouldn't hit you." I didn't even know what to say to that.

I've gotten to the point where I love him and care about him, but I really don't like him anymore. I feel like I'm on guard whenever I'm around him, just waiting to see what his mood will be like. And of course even writing that makes me feel guilty. I guess my question is, is this abuse? Am I crazy? I feel like our relationship is unhealthy, but my H seems to think everything is fine.


----------



## wife1981 (Jul 5, 2013)

There are different types of abuse. This is abuse what he is doing. He has anger issues and unless he can seek help, he will not get better. There are no excuses, a lot of people have health issues or hate their jobs. It doesn't make getting that angry okay. You mentioned he refuses to seek help because he doesn't think it will work. If he is not willing to go on his own, I don't know if he can get better on his own. I am a little worried that one day he will snap and hurt you. It happens everyday! I don't know much about situations like this, but when I read your post I felt like I had to at least say something. I'm glad you are seeking therapy on your own. I hope the therapist has told you what anger can lead to. Be careful. Listen, you might love him but you cannot stay with him if he doesn't get any help. He is already throwing stuff at the animals? That is animal abuse! You cannot let this happen. Honestly, if you tried talking with him and he does not want to get help. You mention you are afraid of him too. Take your animals and go somewhere safe. Maybe that will open his eyes. I'm not trying to be negative or frighten you, but I am concerned for you.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Keep going to therapy.

Awareness- being able to admit what is abusive- is the first step on a journey. 

Even though your husband refuses therapy and refuses to take responsibility for his bad behavior, you have a lot of power to change the dynamic of your marriage relationship by changing your reactions/responses. You can learn not to internalize his anger and crazymaking. 

The therapist should be able to suggest and role play healthy responses (including keeping yourself safe!)


----------



## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

I wonder if secretly videotaping his outbursts and then showing them to him when he is not in a manic state and calmly discussing it might better illustrate the situation......although not directed at you (as of yet) starting to throw things at the animals is the beginning of an evil path..........just like children, you are responsible to protect your pets. (and btw, glad you don't have kids)

Have no clue what the solution is to fixing it kinda sounds like he has some bi-polar issues, anger management problems and possibly his upbringing created PTSD issues ......and you being around all of this can create PTSD issues for you. (Be very careful, YOU May feel that your spouse or someone has whatever issue but you are not a trained diagnostician and there are other ramifications possible like if you try to claim these things in court without a proper diagnosis can result in the opposite of what you want....I digress)

But, your question was "Is this abuse" and yes it is. 
I bet your therapist has a checklist of things you would be surprised are included in emotional abuse. Like when he is having "angry sulks not even speaking to you" he is probably also at this time withholding sex using it as a tool. 

From what you have shared, he could care less that his outbursts and adult temper tantrums scare you..what are you gonna do about it. Lack of respect. 

I hate that people think it's okay to treat their Family worse than a person on the street. 

The times when he is loving and caring apparently no longer outweigh the bad. That's obvious or you wouldn't be writing.

Going to Therapy is a great thing for you. He/she should be giving you plenty of coping skills that will help a little. 

Since you don't have children, and especially if you want them...I'd be getting my ducks in a row (financially takin care of bizness so you can be fine after the divorce) and offering the ultimatum either you work out your anger **** or I'm gonna make like a tree and leave
and then be prepared to leave
You are young, and you don't have to live the way you are. Easier to meet a better companion the younger you are. Think about that.

I'm rooting for you whatever happens, good luck.


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Chaotic said:


> When he's stressed or frustrated, he'll either go into angry sulks (not speaking to me) or he'll get extremely negative and critical about everything or he'll explode into tantrums. Usually he'll switch between those three options.
> 
> He's never been physically abusive--never touched me in anger at all--but he'll punch the dashboard in the car, or throw small things in the house, or pound his fist on the table, things like that. He's thrown things at our pets a couple times, even though normally he dotes on them. Most often he'll just scream and rage and swear.


1. Do you feel mistreated when he behaves like this? 

2. Does he do these things to manipulate others' feelings or intimidate them? 

3. Do his behaviors result in damaged items that you share the cost in replacing? 

If you answered yes to any of these, I'd say he's being abusive. These behaviors are usually designed to make others feel bad so we won't feel like we're feeling bad all alone. In other words, they intentionally hurt others so we can feel better. That is abusive, in my opinion.


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

It is abuse. My exhusband like yours did not deal well with stress of any kind. Good or bad. It ruined what should have been special, happy occasions. Like your husband, mine would give me the silent treatment for weeks. Also abusive and manipulative. Meant to shut you up and keep you in "your place," intimidate you into submission. You say he is generally critical and pessimistic. I got tired of being his punching bag. If he is unable to recognize this in himself and feel the need to make a change himself....you can't change it. I hope for you that he can come to this realization. I too had a hard time with the word "abuse" like you, it felt extreme to me. But I was to busy making excuses for bad, unnacceptable behavior, even accepting blame when I hadnt done anything. Took me years to get it and be done. Now, I am very obsevant of how a potential new partner deals with stress....among other things....I wish you well.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Does it really matter if it's "abuse" or not? He's still acting like an ass, doesn't see that he's part of the problem, and he's not going to take any action to help control his unacceptable behaviour. The only person who's behaviour you can control is your own. The therapy is a good start. The next step may be to determine what behaviours are unacceptable to you, and to set (and enforce) boundaries.

What do you mean when you say you "love him"? Curious about your thoughts on what that means.

C


----------



## firefly789 (Apr 9, 2013)

Hi Chaotic. Your H sounds like my dad when I was growing up. I'm glad you don't have kids. While he didn't direct his anger at us kids, it was still hard to be around. My mom did most of the driving because it was too stressful for him. When the car broke down she had to call AAA because he just couldn't deal with it. She did all the bills, etc. because, yeah, you know. Little things set him off and you felt like you were walking on eggshells. So much anger. But, at least he didn't get violent and throw things at the dog or hurt anyone. Although, our dog didn't like him because he was not kind. It was all verbal and kind of scary. However, he could be charming when he wanted to be. But, my mom wasn't supposed to ever get stressed or angry. She took the brunt of everything.

As an adult I've tried to get my head around his behavior. Luckily, I married a very easy going man who is kind-hearted and I live a very peaceful life. The best book that I read to help me understand was _Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. While most of the men were more abusive than my dad, it still gave me insight into why he did what he did. I actually took notes on it, which I don't have any more. For my dad, a lot was that he wanted his whole environment to cater to him. It came down to a lot of control and manipulation. My mom was supposed to fix everything to make it better for him. We kids learned to be very quiet at home because he didn't like noise. We tried to stay out of the way a lot. You may think the anger is not directed at you, but I'm sure it does affect how you act at home and you too walk on eggshells. Your whole focus is probably on him and keeping him happy. Are you ever allowed to be angry or express emotions?

It's good you're in IC by yourself because they don't recommend that you do therapy together. (He'll present his sweet side and not own up to problems.) Also, I worry that this is getting worse. Throwing things at the dogs is a big red flag when he didn't before. For others who been around someone like this it's hard to realize how scary and unsettling life can be when he can erupt at any time over anything. I hope you don't live like this for 40 more years like my mom did._


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

PBear said:


> Does it really matter if it's "abuse" or not? He's still acting like an ass, doesn't see that he's part of the problem, and he's not going to take any action to help control his unacceptable behaviour. The only person who's behaviour you can control is your own. The therapy is a good start. The next step may be to determine what behaviours are unacceptable to you, and to set (and enforce) boundaries.
> 
> What do you mean when you say you "love him"? Curious about your thoughts on what that means.
> 
> C


I agree. From my experience (which may not be yours) setting boundaries results in a declaration of war in their minds. You may need to expect things will get really, REALLY bad before getting better, if getting better is possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

firefly789 said:


> Hi Chaotic. Your H sounds like my dad when I was growing up. *I'm glad you don't have kids. While he didn't direct his anger at us kids, it was still hard to be around.* My mom did most of the driving because it was too stressful for him. When the car broke down she had to call AAA because he just couldn't deal with it. She did all the bills, etc. because, yeah, you know. *Little things set him off and you felt like you were walking on eggshells. So much anger. But, at least he didn't get violent and throw things at the dog or hurt anyone. *Although, our dog didn't like him because he was not kind. It was all verbal and kind of scary. However, he could be charming when he wanted to be. But, my mom *wasn't supposed to ever get stressed or angry. She took the brunt of everything.*
> As an adult I've tried to get my head around his behavior. Luckily, I married a very easy going man who is kind-hearted and I live a very peaceful life. The best book that I read to help me understand was _Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. While most of the men were more abusive than my dad, it still gave me insight into why he did what he did. I actually took notes on it, which I don't have any more. For my dad, a lot was that he *wanted his whole environment to cater to him. It came down to a lot of control and manipulation. *My mom was supposed to fix everything to make it better for him. *We kids learned to be very quiet at home because he didn't like noise. We tried to stay out of the way a lot.* You may think the anger is not directed at you, but I'm sure it does affect how you act at home and you too walk on eggshells. Your whole focus is probably on him and keeping him happy. Are you ever allowed to be angry or express emotions?
> 
> It's good you're in IC by yourself because they don't recommend that you do therapy together. (He'll present his sweet side and not own up to problems.) Also, I worry that this is getting worse. Throwing things at the dogs is a big red flag when he didn't before. For others who been around someone like this it's hard to realize *how scary and unsettling life can be when he can erupt at any time over anything. I hope you don't live like this for 40 more years like my mom did.*_


_


I so relate to all I have bolded. We have 2 kids and when they were little (they still are) he wanted me to keep them quiet during the day(he worked nights) how the hell was i supposed to do that! it is stressful for the entire household. When my husband was in ignore mode my son actually said to him one night "daddy, do you see mommy," broke my heart. I left as much for them as i did for me. Kids see it all and it effects them more than most realize or care to admit.

Please, dont have kids unless he can do something about this. I did divorce. now there is nobody there to get the brunt of his anger and frustration except my older son. he has taken my place. my children live with me but do see their father regularly. I now have him in therapy so he can learn to deal with his father. He does love our children, i believe he even loved me but he is who he is. he doesnt know any better or any different and he is not intersted in learning or changing still...._


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

firefly789 said:


> Hi Chaotic. Your H sounds like my dad when I was growing up. I'm glad you don't have kids. While he didn't direct his anger at us kids, it was still hard to be around. *My mom did most of the driving because it was too stressful for him. When the car broke down she had to call AAA because he just couldn't deal with it. She did all the bills, etc. because, yeah, you know. Little things set him off and you felt like you were walking on eggshells. So much anger.* But, at least he didn't get violent and throw things at the dog or hurt anyone. Although, our dog didn't like him because he was not kind. It was all verbal and kind of scary. *However, he could be charming when he wanted to be. But, my mom wasn't supposed to ever get stressed or angry. She took the brunt of everything.*
> 
> As an adult I've tried to get my head around his behavior. Luckily, I married a very easy going man who is kind-hearted and I live a very peaceful life. The best book that I read to help me understand was _Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft. While most of the men were more abusive than my dad, it still gave me insight into why he did what he did. I actually took notes on it, which I don't have any more. For my dad, a lot was that he wanted his whole environment to cater to him. It came down to a lot of control and manipulation. My mom was supposed to fix everything to make it better for him. We kids learned to be very quiet at home because he didn't like noise. We tried to stay out of the way a lot. *You may think the anger is not directed at you, but I'm sure it does affect how you act at home and you too walk on eggshells. Your whole focus is probably on him and keeping him happy. Are you ever allowed to be angry or express emotions?*
> 
> It's good you're in IC by yourself because they don't recommend that you do therapy together. (He'll present his sweet side and not own up to problems.) Also, I worry that this is getting worse. Throwing things at the dogs is a big red flag when he didn't before. For others who been around someone like this it's hard to realize how scary and unsettling life can be when he can erupt at any time over anything. I hope you don't live like this for 40 more years like my mom did._


_


Thanks so much for all the answers, everybody, I appreciate it so much. I quoted this message and bolded all the stuff that really rang true for me. I do handle almost everything, because he gets too stressed and angry to be of much help. I've even learned some basic plumbing (I'm pretty proud of that, actually) because otherwise home repairs end with him screaming and punching walls.

No, I'm not really "allowed" to express much emotion. If I get angry with him, he gets either even MADDER at me or else gets very self-pitying and talks about how horrible his life is until I'm comforting him. If I get stressed or upset, he either gets mad at me or gets very condescending. I feel like it's not even worth it to express negative emotions with him at all.

To pbear, when I say I love him, I mean that I care a lot about his well-being, I care what happens to him....am I in love with him the way I was when we were first dating? No. Not at all. But I worry a lot about him, both in relation to me (what will his mood be like? will he be screaming at me today?) and also just in general (how horrible is it for him to go through life with so much anger? how can I help him be happier?). I worry a lot that if I leave him, he'll totally fall apart. I guess when I say I love him, I mean that I care enough to worry about him all the time, while at the same time not wanting to really spend time with him because he stresses ME out so much. I love him enough to want him to be okay and for a long time I have loved him enough to bend over backward trying to make him be okay, but I'm starting to get that I can't MAKE him be okay.

Every time I read what I've typed, I feel so dysfunctional....I don't think I always realize how bad it is until I have to describe it. Thank you all for your feedback, it helps a lot._


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Chaotic said:


> Thanks so much for all the answers, everybody, I appreciate it so much. I quoted this message and bolded all the stuff that really rang true for me. I do handle almost everything, because he gets too stressed and angry to be of much help. I've even learned some basic plumbing (I'm pretty proud of that, actually) because home repairs end with him screaming and punching walls.
> To inarut, when I say I love him, I mean that I care a lot about his well-being, I care what happens to him....am I in love with him the way I was when we were first dating? No. Not at all. But I worry a lot about him, both in relation to me (what will his mood be like? will he be screaming at me today?) and also just in general (how horrible is it for him to go through life with so much anger? how can I help him be happier?). I worry a lot that if I leave him, he'll totally fall apart. I guess when I say I love him, I mean that I care enough to worry about him all the time, while at the same time not wanting to really spend time with him because he stresses ME out so much.
> 
> Every time I read what I've typed, I feel so dysfunctional....I don't think I always realize how bad it is until I have to describe it. Thank you all for your feedback, it helps a lot.


[/]

I understand. I loved him too. I spent so much time and energy trying to make him happy. Trying to cover all the bases. Anticipate and negate anything that might cause negative responses from him. It couldnt be done. No matter what I did or how hard I tried it was always something. I dont know how long you are married but it is only a matter of time before his anger is directed at you. And then it is only matter of time before that love becomes indifference and feeling sorry for him. And in my situation, having kids, now I hate him for all the pain he is causing my son.


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Chaotic said:


> Thanks so much for all the answers, everybody, I appreciate it so much. I quoted this message and bolded all the stuff that really rang true for me. I do handle almost everything, because he gets too stressed and angry to be of much help. I've even learned some basic plumbing (I'm pretty proud of that, actually) because otherwise home repairs end with him screaming and punching walls.
> 
> *No, I'm not really "allowed" to express much emotion. If I get angry with him, he gets either even MADDER at me or else gets very self-pitying and talks about how horrible his life is until I'm comforting him. If I get stressed or upset, he either gets mad at me or gets very condescending. I feel like it's not even worth it to express negative emotions with him at all.*
> To pbear, when I say I love him, I mean that I care a lot about his well-being, I care what happens to him....am I in love with him the way I was when we were first dating? No. Not at all. But I worry a lot about him, both in relation to me (what will his mood be like? will he be screaming at me today?) and also just in general (how horrible is it for him to go through life with so much anger? how can I help him be happier?). I worry a lot that if I leave him, he'll totally fall apart. I guess when I say I love him, I mean that I care enough to worry about him all the time, while at the same time not wanting to really spend time with him because he stresses ME out so much. I love him enough to want him to be okay and for a long time I have loved him enough to bend over backward trying to make him be okay, but I'm starting to get that I can't MAKE him be okay.
> ...


The bolded part is key. You cant trust him with you, with your thoughts and feelings. You are stifled, repressed and belittled for your thoughts and feelings. With this , intimacy is not possible. What is a relationship, a marriage without intimacy?

He is incapable of intimacy... vulnerability, honesty, openness. That is a big part of why he acts as he does and he has managed to stifle it in you as well. You have allowed him to do that. To bully you into acceptance/ acquiescence.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I suggest you move out for awhile. Tell him that, when he is ready to begin attending therapy with you and an anger management course, you'll be happy to move back in.

This is in YOUR control. And it will ONLY get worse, if you stay and give him the status quo. Why should he change? Either way, things will improve - he'll either get help and you can have a better life, or he won't and you'll still have a better life.


----------



## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

You love the man who you want him to be, not who he is. Read "Co-Dependent No More." You deserve to have peace in your own home. You cannot "fix" him. The sooner you realize this & accept it, you will have peace of mind & can then decide if you want to live in fear or not.


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Emerald said:


> *You love the man who you want him to be, not who he is.* Read "Co-Dependent No More." You deserve to have peace in your own home. You cannot "fix" him. The sooner you realize this & accept it, you will have peace of mind & can then decide if you want to live in fear or not.


I agree.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

turnera said:


> I suggest you move out for awhile. Tell him that, when he is ready to begin attending therapy with you and an anger management course, you'll be happy to move back in.



As much as I care/worry about him, I really think that if I managed to move out, there's no way I would want to move back in. Moving out would be so hard, but I really think the relief of not having to worry about his anger would keep me from ever going back. I guess that alone should tell me something.

I'm gonna keep going to therapy and try to figure out if I want to stay and work this out or leave. My H is having a mini-health crisis right now and I feel like I can't dump more on him until he's better, so I'm in a holding pattern right now. He has never apologized to me, EVER, for his screaming/swearing/raging, but he has apologized three times this week for being sick, which isn't even remotely his fault. I don't get it.


----------



## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

chaotic, it sounds like you have your head screwed on right, which often isn't the case of people who are abused like you are. yes - I think this is abuse because you are scared of him and his moods and rages. because you have to walk on eggshells. because you are surrounded by his physical abuse of hurting animals, and punching things around you. you personally are not physically abused but your fear level increases around him. you told him you were scared and he undermines your feelings. he is controlling you in a bad unhealthy way. you must be a ball of tension when you are with him - either not knowing what is going to set him off, or just knowing that it's coming and the stress of it all.

there is no way on earth you should be having kids with him. he can't handle it. he is not father material. save yourself from his rages. you are a mature adult. you won't be there all the time to protect your poor kids from him. 

you know what you need to do. while you are seeing him through this mini-health crisis, get your ducks in order to make your escape. he does not love and cherish you. if he did, he would do what he needs to do to keep you, but, as you said, he refuses to go to therapy, and doesn't even seem to acknowledge that he has a problem. you can't fix him, and you certainly should not be living this way.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read this book while you are in your holding pattern; it will explain everything: Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men, by Bancroft.


----------



## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Free preview: Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

Thanks so much...I actually downloaded this book onto my kindle last week and have been reading it. I have so much underlined in it, its ridiculous. My therapist had recommended "Should I Stay or Should I Go" by the same author, but "Why Does He Do That" is more helpful to me right now, though I'm reading both.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Chaotic said:


> His rages this last year have been worse and more directed at me than they used to be. Between these tantrums, if life is calm, he can be very sweet and loving, but I'm having a harder and harder time relaxing and trusting the sweet version of him. And that makes me feel guilty, like I'm not being a good wife and forgiving him....but then, he never apologizes, either. He just acts like nothing happened. Sometimes he claims to not remember his tantrums, and I don't know if he's just saying that or if he really doesn't remember.


This was my ex husband. To a T. We kept going through the same pattern: he would be angry, turn it toward me, get madder if I tried to talk about it, then I got the silent treatment for days. Then when he decided he was done being mad, he never, ever apologized to me. I was always so relieved when he was back to normal, but as time passed, it dawned on me that this WAS indeed a pattern, and the times between kept getting shorter and shorter. My final straw was him raging at me in the car on a trip, and took a low blow at my daughter. I was done, and things never went totally back to normal after that. I left him about a year after that incident. 

YES IT IS ABUSE. Check out this website, I found it very helpful and it validated my feelings about my situation. 

Welcome to Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse Site|Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site)!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Chaotic, you only get one life. Why waste it on a marriage that makes you unhappy through no fault of your own? Now, if you weren't supporting your marriage, I'd be telling you to fix your side of the street. But you can't work with crazy. Dr. Harley, who created the wonderful HNHN way of fixing marriages, even he says not to try it with abusive partners, as it only fuels their fire and gives them more ammunition against you. 

I like to ask people in your situation: Would your mom (assuming she's a decent mom) be happy to know what you've settled for?

And also: If your daughter were married to this man, what would you tell HER?

Then why do YOU stay?


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> This was my ex husband. To a T. We kept going through the same pattern: he would be angry, turn it toward me, get madder if I tried to talk about it, then I got the silent treatment for days. Then when he decided he was done being mad, he never, ever apologized to me. *I was always so relieved when he was back to normal, but as time passed, it dawned on me that this WAS indeed a pattern, and the times between kept getting shorter and shorter. *My final straw was him raging at me in the car on a trip, and took a low blow at my daughter. I was done, and things never went totally back to normal after that. I left him about a year after that incident.
> 
> YES IT IS ABUSE. Check out this website, I found it very helpful and it validated my feelings about my situation.
> 
> Welcome to Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse Site|Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse (Site)!


Yes, and eventually you barely see the person you used to love, the person you thought you married. The good parts of them just keep slipping away more and more.

Not only is there never an apology or acknowledgment of their behavior if you try to talk about it they deny the actual circumstances of whatever set them off and how they acted. They come up with their own version of events that do not match reality....mind boggling....crazy making.....

To the OP, you seem to be on the right track, doing the right things. Every situation is a bit different but Im confident you will make whatever choices are best for you.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sounds like my ex. very immature behavior (and aggressive and sulky).

It usually gets worse over time.

I would tell him straight up how you feel. He will either acknowledge your feelings or he won't. If he won't, decide whether you want to spend the rest of your life in a relationship with someone like him.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> This was my ex husband. To a T. We kept going through the same pattern: he would be angry, turn it toward me, get madder if I tried to talk about it, then I got the silent treatment for days. Then when he decided he was done being mad, he never, ever apologized to me. I was always so relieved when he was back to normal, but as time passed, it dawned on me that this WAS indeed a pattern, and the times between kept getting shorter and shorter.


:iagree:


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

turnera said:


> I like to ask people in your situation: Would your mom (assuming she's a decent mom) be happy to know what you've settled for?



Ha....part of my problem might be that my mom, though much more mellow now, was a LOT like my husband when I was a kid. Volatile, unpredictable, a screamer, an expert with the silent treatment. It has been suggested to me that this may have something to do with my accepting my husband's behavior for as long as I have. 

But yeah, I get what you mean...my best friend has told me that I should imagine HER husband saying and doing the things that my husband does, and think about how I'd feel about witnessing him treating her that way. That's part of what got me to finally go to therapy in the first place.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ah, that explains a lot, then. Abuse victims seek out abusers for partners, unless they go to lots of therapy first.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

I read somewhere that while some abuse victims seek out abusers, others don't look for it, but just don't have the skills to notice and reject abuse when it happens. I guess I can identify more with that. I don't think I'm anywhere near self-destructive enough to look for a truck to run me down, but I can see that maybe my childhood left me without the tools to know when I should get out of the road.

But then, I'm still not comfortable with the idea that the word "abuse" is part of my life in the first place.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I didn't mean they literally go looking for them. I meant that they send off signals that say potential victim, without even realizing it. And the abusers pick up on the signals and hone in on you. Turn on the charm, know your vulnerabilities, and you're hooked.

I read somewhere that someone who's been abused and now realizes it and gets out of it should call herself an abuse survivor - cos you came out of it whole and alive and better than ever. Like a badge of honor.


----------



## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

thanks 3x that is the kind of list Ito which I was referring 

Signs of Verbal and Emotional Abuse

by Dr. Irene Matiatos with a former Client who's been there, done that

featured on Home - hcp.obgyn.net 

Do you wonder if your relationship may be abusive? Ask yourself the questions below. If you answer 'yes' to more than a few, you may want to take a closer look: 

Does your partner: 



Updated January 2007 
* ignore your feelings? 
* disrespect you? 
* ridicule or insult you then tell you its a joke, or that you have no sense of humor? 
* ridicule your beliefs, religion, race, heritage or class? 
* withhold approval, appreciation or affection? 

* give you the silent treatment? 
* walk away without answering you? 
* criticize you, call you names, yell at you? 
* humiliate you privately or in public? 
* roll his or her eyes when you talk? 
* give you a hard time about socializing with your friends or family? 
* make you socialize (and keep up appearances) even when you don't feel well? 
* seem to make sure that what you really want is exactly what you won't get? 
* tell you you are too sensitive? 
* hurt you especially when you are down? 
* seem energized by fighting, while fighting exhausts you? 
* have unpredictable mood swings, alternating from good to bad for no apparent reason? 

* present a wonderful face to the world and is well liked by outsiders? 
* "twist" your words, somehow turning what you said against you? 
* try to control decisions, money, even the way you style your hair or wear your clothes? 
* complain about how badly you treat him or her? 
* threaten to leave, or threaten to throw you out? 

* say things that make you feel good, but do things that make you feel bad? 
* ever left you stranded? 
* ever threaten to hurt you or your family? 
* ever hit or pushed you, even "accidentally"? 
* seem to stir up trouble just when you seem to be getting closer to each other? 
* abuse something you love: a pet, a child, an object? 
* compliment you enough to keep you happy, yet criticize you enough to keep you insecure? 
*promise to never do something hurtful again? 
* harass you about imagined affairs? 
* manipulate you with lies and contradictions? 

* destroy furniture, punch holes in walls, break appliances? 
* drive like a road-rage junkie? 
* act immature and selfish, yet accuse you of those behaviors? 
* question your every move and motive, somehow questioning your competence? 
* interrupt you; hear but not really listen? 

* make you feel like you can't win? damned if you do, damned if you don't? 
* use drugs and/or alcohol involved? are things worse then? 
* incite you to rage, which is "proof" that you are to blame? 
* try to convince you he or she is "right," while you are "wrong?" 
* frequently say things that are later denied or accuse you of misunderstanding? 
* treat you like a sex object, or as though sex should be provided on demand regardless of how you feel? 


Your situation is critical if the following applies to you:




* You express your opinions less and less freely. 
* You find yourself walking on eggshells, careful of when and how to say something. 
* You long for that softer, more vulnerable part of your partner to emerge. 
* You find yourself making excuses for your partner's behavior? 
* You feel emotionally unsafe. 
* You feel its somehow not OK to talk with others about your 
* You hope things will change...especially through your love and understanding. 

* You find yourself doubting your memory or sense of reality. 
* You doubt your own judgment. 
* You doubt your abilities. 
* You feel vulnerable and insecure. 
* You are becoming increasingly depressed. 
* You feel increasingly trapped and powerless. 

* You have been or are afraid of your partner. 
* Your partner has physically hurt you, even once. 



If you feel your relationship may be verbally and emotionally abusive, talk to people you trust. Talk to clergy, call your local battered women's shelter, educate yourself, seek professional help. Do not allow verbal and emotional abuse to escalate to battery!


----------



## firefly789 (Apr 9, 2013)

UU, that is a great list to refer to.

People think abuse means getting physically hit. I think some of the mind games that go on are much more difficult to deal with. I remember my mom saying more than once that she felt like she was going crazy. She was the most sane person who was very strong emotionally. 

People like your H are impossible to deal with. You approach the relationship in good faith that you both want what's best for each other. He is looking out for himself and manipulating you, even when it's to your detriment, as long as he gets the outcome he wants.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I remember going through that list, and answering YES to almost every single one, probably like 98% of them! Ugh, how did I stand it??


----------



## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> I remember going through that list, and answering YES to almost every single one, probably like 98% of them! Ugh, how did I stand it??



Because we didn't know it WAS abuse, and often we are raised to think that only HUGE things like domestic violence, alcoholism/addiction, criminal activity and of course infidelity are the only "approved" reasons to get divorced....especially if you have children. 

I think a real problem is that people take marriage lightly...eh if it doesn't work we'll get a divorce mentality. Without first looking at things of importance...such as lifestyle expectations, career expectations, household chore expectations, number of children and how they will be raised etc..... unrealistic expectations of spouse often seem to lead to feeling unfulfilled and unhappy. This last paragraph was a thought, but not pointed towards any particular person.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> I remember going through that list, and answering YES to almost every single one, probably like 98% of them! Ugh, how did I stand it??



I counted 43 questions in that post. There were only 10 I said "no" to. This is so bad.

The thing that gets me is the good times. He can bounce between moods so quickly, and when he's in a good mood and being sweet, I sometimes wonder if the bad times were as bad as I remember? Am I exaggerating? Maybe he won't do it again? Maybe the good time will last? And I KNOW those are all ridiculous things to think, but I think them anyway.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Chaotic said:


> I counted 43 questions in that post. There were only 10 I said "no" to. This is so bad.
> 
> The thing that gets me is the good times. He can bounce between moods so quickly, and when he's in a good mood and being sweet, I sometimes wonder if the bad times were as bad as I remember? Am I exaggerating? Maybe he won't do it again? Maybe the good time will last? And I KNOW those are all ridiculous things to think, but I think them anyway.


I hate to say it, but the bad times are the reality. The good times are just the break in between. I went through the exact same thought process you wrote out here.


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Chaotic, don't ignore the bad stuff; it counts, too.

You're describing emotional abuse. This may be very, very hard to accept, but try.

The Bancroft books are good ones. Read them more than once. Keep a journal (locked/ password protected) as you read to help connect your feelings to the actuality of the ups and downs of your relationship.

You deserve better than walking in eggshells; take a few steps back and think about whether or not that's how you want your life to be and why you're accepting this behavior from your h.

Hang in there.


----------



## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

Unique Username said:


> Because we didn't know it WAS abuse, and often we are raised to think that only HUGE things like domestic violence, alcoholism/addiction, criminal activity and of course infidelity are the only "approved" reasons to get divorced....especially if you have children.
> 
> I think a real problem is that people take marriage lightly...eh if it doesn't work we'll get a divorce mentality. Without first looking at things of importance...such as lifestyle expectations, career expectations, household chore expectations, number of children and how they will be raised etc..... unrealistic expectations of spouse often seem to lead to feeling unfulfilled and unhappy. This last paragraph was a thought, but not pointed towards any particular person.


:iagree:

I invested 28 years with a man who was exactly like the OP described. I learned to weigh my words carefully, walk on eggshells and enjoy the times that he was not home and I could relax. Then he cheated on me. We are now divorced.

But yes, I was raised by my two biological parents and through their example, made an extra effort towards making the marriage work, even though I knew in my heart that I was not happy and felt stuck. Today I feel liberated.

Our grown son is off to college and doing well. He learned very early in his life how to deal with difficult people (his father). Although he loves his father, he does not like his father and the person my son is today has learned the valuable art of having "social skills" and using humor to cancel out any of the emotional scars that may have been created living in such a household. We now can laugh at some of the tantrums his father had. It's over, my son is free, I am free and his father is left alone with who he is. Pitiful, but no longer my problem.


----------



## Unique Username (Jul 6, 2013)

Chaotic......
The cycle of abuse..here is an excerpt from a blog that kind of explains it......there are better explanations but this was the quickest I could find to illustrate;

"Most women who live with an abusive partner find it hard to see any pattern to the abuse. Their mate’s behavior seems bizarre and unpredictable. It seems unbelievable that the same person, who is kind and affectionate one day, could be cruel and malicious the next day. His hurtful behavior seems to come as isolated events. They may think of him as a generally “good guy” who does some really awful things once in a while.

The Three Phases: Honeymoon, Tension-building and Explosion.

The Cycle begins with the honeymoon, which women often describe as an intense period of courtship. During this time, the relationship first gets established. Your partner’s behavior during the honeymoon period seems positive. He is attentive and considerate. He may give you gifts or make promises, or he may simply behave in a way that seems acceptable or “normal.” The two of you begin to establish a relationship together.

Then comes a period of tension building. This phase of the Cycle will vary in length. Some abusive men may be sullen, silent, unpredictable or moody for a period of minutes, hours, weeks or months, creating unbearable tension in the relationship. The man’s behavior during this time may be angry or hostile. Women often describe their partners as being very critical of them. Some men withdraw from the relationship and appear disinterested and distant. They may justify this behavior with excuses such as stress from work or financial concerns. They may also explain their behavior by blaming their partners or children for creating the problems. Men will often deny that there is a problem, insisting that there is nothing wrong with their behavior. Please note that most women, being the nurturers that they are, will try very hard to please their partner, then feel it’s not good enough, and try harder until they feel that they are walking on eggshells, living in fear and trying to avoid the next explosion.

The final phase of the Cycle is the explosion. The first time you experienced an explosion, it may not have seemed that significant, but it probably distressed you. Perhaps your partner raised his voice at you or swore at you. Perhaps he slammed a door or banged down a pot. Perhaps he walked away and gave you the “silent treatment.” If the Cycle has continued for months or years, the explosion phase becomes marked by increasingly brutal attacks, whether they are physical, verbal, psychological or sexual. The attacks also occur more frequently than at the beginning of the relationship.

After the explosion, your partner probably returns to the honeymoon phase. He stops the negative behavior he demonstrated during the tension-building and explosion phases and behaves again in a seemingly positive way. Your partner may apologize and promise not to act in such a manner again or he may simply resume behaving in a way that is acceptable to you. There are many tactics that he may use to convince you to stay with him. Now, please note why this may happen….he does not want to lose the person he loves and abuses. Being a caring, forgiving person, you accept his apology or reformed behavior, and your relationship, and the Cycle, continues.

We have realized that the abuser needs the victim as much as a bully needs a victim. Same scenario – different context. You may notice over time that your partner’s behavior during the tension-building and explosion phases becomes more extreme and closer to one another. His behavior during the honeymoon phase may also change; he may give more gifts and make more promises in order to “win you back.” Alternatively, some women find that the honeymoon period virtually disappears, and the relationship becomes characterized by the tension-building and explosion phases. Each time you take a spin on the Cycle of Abuse you lose a little piece of yourself. You never quite make it back up to your top again. Oh I know, you may think and believe you have… but you haven’t. Every cycle of abuse takes you lower and lower and lower until one day, there is nothing left of you. You just don’t recover. Look closely at yourself and your life… feel your feelings. "


Now this site was from that person's perspective and they are peddling hypnotherapy services so the end wording is to get you toward buying what they're selling......
MY point was really to just introduce the idea of the CYCLES that occur...you seem to keep vascilating --back and forth between the "honeymoon" phase and the "explosion" phase. 
Discuss with your therapist.....to help you better see the reality of your situation.
Good luck, we are rooting for you!



Quote from
Recognizing Patterns of Abuse | HealWithin - Hypnotherapy, Los Angeles CA


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I didn't have the exact same problem, but I described how I felt to my MC like this: I feel like I've been squashed, squashed, squashed, down to the ground, until I'm just flat. Nothing left.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

3Xnocharm said:


> I hate to say it, but the bad times are the reality. The good times are just the break in between. I went through the exact same thought process you wrote out here.


It's the cycle of abuse. Look it up, OP. It gets worse over time.


----------



## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Unique Username said:


> Chaotic......
> The cycle of abuse..here is an excerpt from a blog that kind of explains it......there are better explanations but this was the quickest I could find to illustrate;
> 
> "Most women who live with an abusive partner find it hard to see any pattern to the abuse. Their mate’s behavior seems bizarre and unpredictable. It seems unbelievable that the same person, who is kind and affectionate one day, could be cruel and malicious the next day. His hurtful behavior seems to come as isolated events. They may think of him as a generally “good guy” who does some really awful things once in a while.
> ...


Holy crap, this is EXACTLY how my second marriage went! Its like they were a fly on the wall in my home. 

I was lucky though, I was strong enough to know I needed to get out. I left my first husband for mistreating me, and I wasnt about to put up with this sh!t for the rest of my life.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did you then go to IC to figure out why you sought out such men?


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

Chaotic said:


> I read somewhere that while some abuse victims seek out abusers,* others don't look for it, but just don't have the skills to notice and reject abuse when it happens. I guess I can identify more with that. I don't think I'm anywhere near self-destructive enough to look for a truck to run me down, but I can see that maybe my childhood left me without the tools to know when I should get out of the road*.
> 
> But then, I'm still not comfortable with the idea that the word "abuse" is part of my life in the first place.


Well said!

Your husband has given you an education. I always say (about my ex) he taught me well! You will see a man or any other person like him or your mother/father coming from a mile away now.

We dont choose our family but we do choose anyone else who comes into our lives. Its common to choose a partner who somehow reflects unresolveable family issues. Subconsciosly we choose them because we need to resolve it. Its something that needs to be resolved within yourself. No other relationship will provide that closure and in most cases it cant be resolved within the family.

The good news, now you are aware! Keep working through it so you dont repeat this in future relationships.

Forget about the whole "is this abuse" thing. What matters for right now is, is this acceptable to me or not? Thats whats most important.

We learn to accept the unnaceptable as children because we are conditioned to, we see it as normal, we didnt have a choice! You have a choice now!


----------



## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Put a non-negotiable out to him. Explain to him that you feel unsafe when he behaves this way, that you feel that he doesn't love you. Tell him it has to change or you're gone. Tell him has to seek anger management IC or it's over. Let him know what's on the table and make the consequence very real for him.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

angstire said:


> Put a non-negotiable out to him. Explain to him that you feel unsafe when he behaves this way, that you feel that he doesn't love you. Tell him it has to change or you're gone. Tell him has to seek anger management IC or it's over. Let him know what's on the table and make the consequence very real for him.


Thanks for the advice...I've thought about doing this, actually. I feel like I SHOULD, like I should give him fair warning of how bad this really is, since he doesn't seem to recognize how much his anger effects me. Or maybe he's just in denial about it, I don't know. I just know he acts like there's no problem. 

He has a tendency to shrug off or belittle most of the concerns I bring up, but I guess if I flat out told him I'm leaving unless he gets help and he belittles me, that would make my decision that much easier.


----------



## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Chaotic said:


> Thanks for the advice...I've thought about doing this, actually. I feel like I SHOULD, like I should give him fair warning of how bad this really is, since he doesn't seem to recognize how much his anger effects me. Or maybe he's just in denial about it, I don't know. I just know he acts like there's no problem.
> 
> He has a tendency to shrug off or belittle most of the concerns I bring up, but I guess if I flat out told him I'm leaving unless he gets help and he belittles me, that would make my decision that much easier.


I'm in anger management IC now and this is what's recommended to the spouse before she leaves. If my wife had said this to me, I would have known what was at stake and gotten into IC to keep her and own up to what I was doing to her.

We have many other problems and anger management IC may not have saved my marriage, but I would have worked hard on it for her and us, if I had known how unsafe and hurt she was. I didn't and now I'm doing the work that another woman will benefit from. 

If you make it clear to your husband what's a stake and he doesn't take you seriously, he has no one to blame but himself. 

I wish you both the best.


----------



## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Here's the website for my IC. There are a couple tests on the site about anger and also a workbook he can order. But he really needs to get into IC to work on this.

I was never one to blame my wife for me getting angry, but lots of guys do and a big part of IC and the workbook is to talk about where anger comes from, why it damages relationships and how it can be controlled. Also, the IC will help with delving into why he has anger management issues. Usually, it's due to family of origin stuff.

ANGEResources: Introduction


----------



## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

I wish I'd given stbxh an ultimatum of anger management or divorce papers sooner than I had, instead of the way things happened. He felt like I hadn't given him a chance to change. It wasn't until I did say "one more instance of verbal abuse and I'll divorce you" a year after our separation (long drawn out saga alongside it), and then backed it up with D papers that he got his words under control. Now, a year later, he's finally looking into AMgmt. 

Those of us who walk on eggshells around angry spouses sometimes lose the ability to be assertive. You don't have to be aggressive, but it is fair to lay the cards out honestly and say "I know you don't see it, but for me, your anger is a massive problem -- enough that I will divorce you if you do not seek counseling for it now." Sometimes, you have to be just that direct and straightforward for it to sink in.

Read Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That?". It's helpful.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

inarut said:


> Well said!
> 
> Your husband has given you an education. I always say (about my ex) he taught me well! You will see a man or any other person like him or your mother/father coming from a mile away now.
> 
> ...


I've read up on your thread here, Chaotic, and a lot of what you're going through rings very true to me. My ex never hit me or our son, but did express anger by destroying things, throwing things, punched a dent into our wall -- along with all of the verbal and psychological stuff.

I have to say, it sounds like you have a counselor who's really on her toes. Your IC is going beyond how to deal with the immediate situation with your H, and looking at your past and how you got to this place. My situation was similar in that I had a very controlling mom with a *lot* of borderline/narcissistic traits. My dad ended up leaving the year I graduated high school. I always assumed (and my Ex would use to his advantage) that I was trying to somehow replace the father I had been close to, who had emotionally abandoned me (and I guess, physically, too, since I didn't see him but a handful of times over several years after that). But it took til the end of my marriage, and all the work I did on myself in the aftermath, to find out the same thing you already have -- I was conditioned to look for someone like my mom, because it was my 'normal.' I never saw how much my Ex was like her. I couldn't fix my relationship with her, but I was attracted to this person with a *lot* of her same traits and issues. That kind of blew me away. 

A question for you: Did you see hints of this when you were dating? Did he seem this sensitive to stress? Have these fits of anger? My ex did throw up a lot of red flags, but I did not trust myself, due to my conditioning growing up. I was never taught healthy boundaries or to trust my gut. I thought I was just making a big deal out of nothing. And because my parents were divorced, I worried that I was damaged goods when it came to a future marriage of my own, so how could I judge him? Such crazy twists that go on in our minds!

As if you don't already have enough reading to do, I'd also recommend Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse, including:
The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to recognize it and how to respond: Patricia Evans: 9781440504631: Amazon.com: Books (free preview on Amazon)
and
Victory Over Verbal Abuse: A Healing Guide to Renewing Your Spirit and Reclaiming Your Life: Patricia Evans: Amazon.com: Books (free preview on Amazon)

And these by Beverly Engel that helped me out a lot, too: (these both have free previews, too)

The Emotionally Abused Woman: Overcoming Destructive Patterns and Reclaiming Yourself: Beverly Engel: 9780449906446: Amazon.com: Books

Breaking the Cycle of Abuse: How to Move Beyond Your Past to Create an Abuse-Free Future: Beverly Engel: 9780471740599: Amazon.com: Books

Good luck, Chaotic -- you are so much stronger than I was at this point!! 
This week at the domestic violence support group I've been attending, we talked about the transition from 

Victim --> Survivor --> Thriver

You are well on your way into the survivor phase! :smthumbup:


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> A question for you: Did you see hints of this when you were dating? Did he seem this sensitive to stress? Have these fits of anger? My ex did throw up a lot of red flags, but I did not trust myself, due to my conditioning growing up. I was never taught healthy boundaries or to trust my gut. I thought I was just making a big deal out of nothing. And because my parents were divorced, I worried that I was damaged goods when it came to a future marriage of my own, so how could I judge him? Such crazy twists that go on in our minds!


Thanks so much for all the kind words, Angelpixie and everyone else! The whole "he's like my mom" thing actually wasn't too hard to figure out--my whole life I've heard how I'm "just like my Dad" and my brother was "just like my Mom", personality-wise, and when I got married, even my Mom said, "oh, he's a lot like me". The hard thing, for me, has been figuring out that both my Mom and my husband behave in ways that are unacceptable. I grew up thinking my Mom was quick-tempered and sensitive. When she took harmless comments as insults, screamed and told us we were horrible, insensitive, critical, ungrateful children and then didn't speak to us for days, I thought that was because she was sensitive and had a temper. No one ever said, "no, that's abusive and abnormal and she has some histrionic and narcissistic traits". When my Dad let her walk all over him and not speak to him for months, it was because he was patient and easy-going; no one ever said, "he's co-dependent and being emotionally abused". 

It IS crazy how these things reverberate through our lives.

Anyway in answer to your questions--yes, looking back, there were red flags that I ignored. There were red flags I purposely justified to myself, even. My husband was always easily stressed, and his sense of humor was always on the mean side. I remember being stunned, the first time I met his family, at how disrespectful he, his brother and dad all were to his mom--they teased her mercilessly, and not in a nice way. But she put up with it, and I thought, well, their family isn't like mine, maybe this just seems weird to me because MY mom was so sensitive and wouldn't have put up with this, but maybe his mom is okay with it?

As far as the rages go, though, that's gotten worse over our marriage. He swears at me, now, sometimes over nothing, and that never used to happen. The other day he was laying in the recliner after work and didn't feel good. I asked him a couple questions (did you take some tylenol? maybe you should take a nap when I go out to run errands?) and he just shrugged. So I sat down to read the paper. Suddenly he snapped the recliner up hard enough to bounce it and threw the TV remote on the floor. I yelped "oh my God!" because I was startled, and he snapped, "oh, too f------ bad!!" at me and stalked out of the room. I left to run errands and stayed out as long as I could, and when I got back, he acted like nothing had happened. He does stuff like this at least once a week, and he never used to.

I know people will say, why didn't you confront him right there? I know I should've, but he wasn't feeling good and he was tired and angry and I chickened out. Sometimes I do stick up for myself and say "it's unacceptable to talk to me like that" and he'll either ignore me or else he'll apologize, but either way it doesn't stop.

Still going to IC and still thinking about what to do. Thanks so much for all your support, this site is great.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Even as sick and abusive as your mom was, would she want you being RAGED at? That is not a marriage, chaotic. That's being a victim and choosing to do nothing about it. You deserve better.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

In the meantime, start practicing this ONE IMPORTANT boundary: If he raises his voice, you leave the room. Period. He can't yell if you aren't there. Well, he can, but he'll feel like a fool. 

JUST LEAVE THE ROOM.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Chaotic said:


> I grew up thinking my Mom was quick-tempered and sensitive. When she took harmless comments as insults, screamed and told us we were horrible, insensitive, critical, ungrateful children and then didn't speak to us for days, I thought that was because she was sensitive and had a temper. No one ever said, "no, that's abusive and abnormal and she has some histrionic and narcissistic traits"....
> 
> It IS crazy how these things reverberate through our lives.


Oh my gosh -- that's *exactly* like my mom. Except she'd add in vague suicidal threats, too, when she didn't get her way. So I think she had some borderline stuff, too. She was on a special diet for a bad blood sugar problem, and her favorite manipulation was to just tell everyone (i.e., me) how tired she was of everyone (actually meaning 'everyone' this time) treating her so horribly, and that she was just going to stop eating til she went into a insulin coma. *Then* we'd feel bad, by golly. What would bring this on? Oh, things like me not taking a break from my homework and peeling potatoes for dinner soon enough for her liking. I was actually on the same diet for the same type of sugar problem, but that was never really talked about. Odd, eh?  She never did any of the stuff at me when my dad or my brother were around. Two months ago, I revealed some of it to my brother for the first time, and he was not aware of any of it.



Chaotic said:


> Anyway in answer to your questions--yes, looking back, there were red flags that I ignored. There were red flags I purposely justified to myself, even. My husband was always easily stressed, and his sense of humor was always on the mean side....
> 
> As far as the rages go, though, that's gotten worse over our marriage..


Yes, my ex always had a sense of humor that could easily go from sarcastic to very mean. Sometimes 'make you gasp' kind of mean. I thought I was just too sensitive/goody-two shoes, and that he wasn't doing anything worse than stuff we saw on TV. That wasn't the case. He really was mean and extremely judgmental and arrogant.
And his dad had a very bad temper, which I observed, but I knew my ex recognized that, and we were both in IC for a while before we got married in order to deal with stuff from our parents. I think we missed the boat in looking at what we might have seen in _each other_ that might have been red flags. His rages got worse over time, too. Throwing and breaking things when he was frustrated, etc. After the episodes were over and things had calmed back down, I told him that I noticed them getting worse and that I wanted him to do something about how he expressed his anger, especially in view of our son. He always brushed it off, or got upset that I was making too big of a deal of things and insinuating he was like his dad. Which he was.  I knew that was one of the worst things to him, something he never wanted to hear, so I tried not to say it to him to hurt his feelings. Better to just walk on eggshells myself.


----------



## Ellie5 (Mar 12, 2013)

Hi Chaotic

There is some great advice here. 

I'm worried for you that the longer this kind of behaviour continues, the more eroded your self-confidence may become. I used to have a boss like this. Those times I could feel a temper arising in him, or even when he was fully fledged in steam, I could feel my own heart rate elevate and many a time felt helpless or frightened to speak my own mind for fear of further attack or shouting. You start to feel small, like your ducking bullets.

No one should have to feel frightened in a marriage. He may already see the effect this has on you and perhaps this gives him some form of control/power. The more frightened you become, the more fuel he has.

Have you ever lost your temper with him? He needs to start taking you seriously.

I truly hope for you that he has the gumption to realize he could lose you if he doesn't step up to the plate.

Let us know how you get on. Don't put up with anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, afraid, small, belittled, undermined. You're worth so much more.

All the best.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

turnera said:


> In the meantime, start practicing this ONE IMPORTANT boundary: If he raises his voice, you leave the room. Period. He can't yell if you aren't there. Well, he can, but he'll feel like a fool.
> 
> JUST LEAVE THE ROOM.


Maybe raging is the wrong word. It often doesn't go on long enough for me to leave. It's more like, throw item at wall, scream one or two sentences, storm out of room. Sometimes it's over before I have time to process.

But yes. I know. I need to assert myself somehow rather than sitting frozen.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> Oh my gosh -- that's *exactly* like my mom. Except she'd add in vague suicidal threats, too, when she didn't get her way. So I think she had some borderline stuff, too. She was on a special diet for a bad blood sugar problem, and her favorite manipulation was to just tell everyone (i.e., me) how tired she was of everyone (actually meaning 'everyone' this time) treating her so horribly, and that she was just going to stop eating til she went into a insulin coma. *Then* we'd feel bad, by golly. What would bring this on? Oh, things like me not taking a break from my homework and peeling potatoes for dinner soon enough for her liking. I was actually on the same diet for the same type of sugar problem, but that was never really talked about. Odd, eh?  She never did any of the stuff at me when my dad or my brother were around. Two months ago, I revealed some of it to my brother for the first time, and he was not aware of any of it.


My mom didn't do the suicidal stuff, but she'd burst into tears at the drop of a dime and we'd all feel guilty about that, too. But was your mom always like that, or did she have good times? When my mom was not being crazy, she was awesome--fun, loving, supportive, etc. I think that made it harder for me to realize there was something wrong....easy to block out the bad times once the good times come back. And my husband is like that, too. When he's in a good mood, he's sweet and considerate and fun to be with. It would be easier to leave if he were uniformly horrible.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

My mom started out really strong and I always thought of her as 'wise' as opposed to book-smart. She encouraged me to not shy away from doing something just because I'm female. But there was always 'something' between us and I never felt truly close to her. I know she felt closer to my brother. When my dad left, she totally fell apart. Went into a freefall and then everything revolved around her misery. In fact, sadly, my brother (6 years younger than me) doesn't really remember her in that strong, somewhat adventuresome capacity.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> Maybe raging is the wrong word. It often doesn't go on long enough for me to leave. It's more like, throw item at wall, scream one or two sentences, storm out of room. Sometimes it's over before I have time to process.
> 
> But yes. I know. I need to assert myself somehow rather than sitting frozen.


If you had a daughter who got married, how would you feel if her husband 'just' threw something at the wall?

Why do YOU deserve less than that?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> Sometimes it's over before I have time to process.


So?

"Husband, you threw the picture at the wall and it scared me. I have to go and think about this, and calm down. I'm going for a walk."

And then LEAVE.


----------



## firefly789 (Apr 9, 2013)

Chaotic, as you start making changes, the status quo will change. This is good, but it will also be a tricky time. Either your H will be able to make adjustments and grow as a person, or he will become more unstable. I hope you plan ahead in case things go bad. Just be sure you have a plan in your head if he should become violent or unstable. It is good that you are willing to start taking some control back and establishing boundaries. Hopefully, this will produce positive changes in him and in your marriage. Just be smart.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have you read "Codependent No More"? I think that you would benefit from the book.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

firefly789 said:


> Just be sure you have a plan in your head if he should become violent or unstable. It is good that you are willing to start taking some control back and establishing boundaries. Hopefully, this will produce positive changes in him and in your marriage. Just be smart.


 Good point. I'm sure you know this, but just in case: Pack a bag with essentials to last you 2 or 3 days. Keep it in the trunk of your car if you have one, or near the exit door if you don't. Keep money in there, a phone charger, and contact numbers for people you may need to call for help. Also look up local women's shelters just in case you need a place to go. Have a list of local hotels, if you can afford one, in there. And a visit to a lawyer's not a bad idea, just so you'll know what your rights are.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

Thanks. I have a bag I carry back and forth to work with me that has some of this stuff, I'll make sure it has the rest.

I haven't read Co-Dependent No More yet, I've read one of the Patricia Evans books and the Bancroft books. I'll find that one, too.

We're going on a road trip in August. He fell apart, big-time, on our last big road trip. I thought maybe he was losing his mind, it was that bad; when we got home I was researching personality disorders and bipolar disorder, trying to figure out what was wrong with him. Not that I could diagnose him anyway, but I kept thinking that normal people don't act like he was acting. Anyway, any advice for what to do if he flips out when we're three states away from home? I mean, other than "don't go". I realize that's an option, but it's kind of my last resort.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Always keep cash in your pocket - lots of it - and a credit card in your name only. If he wigs out, get out of the car, walk to the nearest public place, call a cab, and get to an airport and fly home.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Do you have the opportunity to get a disposable phone in your name only - like a tracfone or straighttalk? You can have time loaded on it, and they both have free long distance in the U.S. You can get them at Walmart for sure, and probably other big box stores. That way you don't have to worry about him cutting off your access to communication. You can keep it in that bag, or in your pocket. I know women who tuck their phones in their bras if they don't have pockets, lol.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Also, do you have someone you'd be able to keep in contact with and keep posted as to how things are going? I'm a big believer in documentation.


----------



## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> Do you have the opportunity to get a disposable phone in your name only - like a tracfone or straighttalk? You can have time loaded on it, and they both have free long distance in the U.S. You can get them at Walmart for sure, and probably other big box stores. That way you don't have to worry about him cutting off your access to communication. You can keep it in that bag, or in your pocket. I know women who tuck their phones in their bras if they don't have pockets, lol.


Yes. You really need to start preparing, not just for this trip but in general. When I started creating boundaries and he saw I wasn't going to back down or give in anymore, my ex retaliated. He shut the phone, cable, stopped buying food and hid the car keys so I couldn't go anywhere. He wouldn't watch the kids so I could go to work. I had nothing, no money and 2 kids. Don't let this happen to you. Men like this don't deal well with losing their sense of control. At this point you don't know how your husband will react so prepare for the worst just in case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

inarut said:


> Yes. You really need to start preparing, not just for this trip but in general. When I started creating boundaries and he saw I wasn't going to back down or give in anymore, my ex retaliated. He shut the phone, cable, stopped buying food and hid the car keys so I couldn't go anywhere. He wouldn't watch the kids so I could go to work. I had nothing, no money and 2 kids. Don't let this happen to you. Men like this don't deal well with losing their sense of control. At this point you don't know how your husband will react so prepare for the worst just in case.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know this is a hijack, but really?!? Guys do this?

I can't believe it, but your words are proof.

Again, a hijack, but I'm in IC, I never did anything retaliatory which my stbxw expected and I'm making changes on a daily basis. I wish she had the patience and open-ness to want change in both partners as you ladies do. I may still be getting a D, but at least we'd work on it for a few months, instead of her just leaving.

Anyway, this behavior is ridiculous and sorry for the hijack.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Yes. It's very real, angstire. I've heard some horrible stories in my DV support group. Guys who had control of the purse strings, the phone was in their name, only had one car (which they used) and there was no way for the woman to take care of herself or her kids. I personally know a woman from my group who had to leave her home and leave her kids with her ex because he threatened to hurt them if she didn't. She had no resources and was living in a tent by the river in the wintertime because she was so scared and afraid to go to anyone for help. Thankfully she finally did. She didn't have a vehicle, or money, or family to help. She knew that if she took the kids and ran, he'd find them and she was afraid. He had already hit one of her kids in front of her, so she believed him (of course, he was already beating the crap out of her). Thankfully, when she got help, she got a place to live, a divorce with full custody of her kids, only supervised visitation for him, and a permanent restraining order. But it took a lot of hell to get there.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

angstire said:


> I never did anything retaliatory which my stbxw expected


Were you abusive? No? Then it doesn't relate to this story. This is what happens to abused women and what abused women are forced to do to protect themselves.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's a WH over at marriageadvocates who's turned from a seemingly great husband who just happened to cheat, to a full-blown monster - he's hit her, he's taken stuff from the home to take to his gf, she ended up having to take all the kids to a shelter, and a year later, he STILL harasses her and screams at her and calls her a ***** - in front of the kids...just unbelievable stuff.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

I have heard lots of stories like this, but that's pretty far outside my situation. I have control of my own money and phone and I have a decent job. I handle most of our financial stuff anyway because even balancing a checkbook makes him too stressed and then he loses his temper. And I have no kids, just two cats. My concern is more that if I left, my H would self-destruct and/or hurt the cats. (I wouldn't leave in the first place without taking the cats, though.) When I've stood up for myself, he's sometimes gone the self-pity route and talked about how he should've died years ago, or how his life is pointless and he should just disappear, things like that. When I've said that I'm afraid of his temper, he has said things like "I don't know why, I don't hit you" and sometimes he'll add "if I ever hit you, I'll kill myself". So....I'm lucky, financial resources are not a big problem for me. Guilt and feeling responsible for him are more my problems.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

meh, my husband tells me at least once a year he should just die so we can have his insurance money, since that's all we care about anyway. I just shrug and ignore him.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Chaotic said:


> Guilt and feeling responsible for him are more my problems.


 And that is what therapy works on.


----------



## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> Yes. It's very real, angstire. I've heard some horrible stories in my DV support group. Guys who had control of the purse strings, the phone was in their name, only had one car (which they used) and there was no way for the woman to take care of herself or her kids. I personally know a woman from my group who had to leave her home and leave her kids with her ex because he threatened to hurt them if she didn't. She had no resources and was living in a tent by the river in the wintertime because she was so scared and afraid to go to anyone for help. Thankfully she finally did. She didn't have a vehicle, or money, or family to help. She knew that if she took the kids and ran, he'd find them and she was afraid. He had already hit one of her kids in front of her, so she believed him (of course, he was already beating the crap out of her). Thankfully, when she got help, she got a place to live, a divorce with full custody of her kids, only supervised visitation for him, and a permanent restraining order. But it took a lot of hell to get there.


Geez that's horrible. Speechless and don't get why, but then I'm sure that's part of the problem with that guy and others like him.


----------



## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I understand, Chaotic. I was my ExH's primary caretaker/giver, whatever you want to call it. He was also very manipulative -- which is what your Ex is. He needs help, true. But it's not up to you to get it for him. I know it's really hard when you love someone and you see them self-destructing before your eyes. You worry about them more than you worry about yourself, even when their issues are taking you down with them. 

It's never an easy thing to deal with. God forbid, what if he did do something? It wouldn't be your fault. It is *always* his choice. HE could have reached out for real help. Anytime. To anyone. But it's easy to say this, I know. People told me the same thing about my mom and my ex. This threat of them hurting themselves hangs over the heads of a lot of spouses of those with mental health issues, like a giant guillotine. Do you choose your spouse, or yourself? 

Having been through it with a parent and a spouse, my answer now would be an unequivocal 'Yourself.' A person can only take so much in that type of environment before it drags him/her down, too, as you're finding out. Unless an ill person really truly needs hospitalization or constant care, he/she is the only one in control of seeking help. We cannot force them. It's the old thing about using the oxygen mask on the airplane before giving it to your child. You're no good if you don't take care of yourself first. 

I've forgotten -- are you seeing a therapist or counselor? If so, it would seem that the guilt and sense of responsibility for him are the two biggest things for you to focus on. Chances are they aren't just connected to him, so getting to the source will be helpful for you going forward, too.


----------



## angstire (Jun 4, 2013)

Chaotic said:


> Guilt and feeling responsible for him are more my problems.


Those are your problems, but him threatening to hurt himself is not. Get rid of the guilt and responsibility for his safety, and ultimately, his happiness. He needs to own those, not you. You're doing it now by feeling responsible for him.


----------



## Chaotic (Jul 6, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> I've forgotten -- are you seeing a therapist or counselor? If so, it would seem that the guilt and sense of responsibility for him are the two biggest things for you to focus on. Chances are they aren't just connected to him, so getting to the source will be helpful for you going forward, too.


Yeah, I started therapy about 6 weeks ago. Sometimes I feel like I should be going every single day.


----------



## motherofone (Jan 10, 2013)

Take a read about cluster b personality disorders. 

My stbxh also never laid a hand on me till the NPD mask fell and boundaries started going up. 

If you can get him to go together to someone it may help you find answers quicker to what you are dealing with, but he may not go. (Seriously go read the first line of this post again). 

He too tried the financial abuse route. I got a lawyer.


----------

