# What does "For Better or Worse" really mean?



## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

I grew up in a strict fundamental religious family where everything was black and white. Now that I'm (_slightly_) older, married, and have my own family, I'm becoming very uncomfortable with the black/white approach and prefer to think that most situations fall into a grey area.

So here's where my confusion enters. When most people marry, they include the phrase, "For better or worse" in their wedding vows. To me, this always meant, "I will stay married and committed to you no matter what happens(barring abuse)" However, having been on these forums for a short while now and seeing so many situations and circumstances that no one really _talks_ about, I'm wondering what those words really mean, or if they really have any meaning at all.

Does the "the worse" part mean :

-I will stay married to you even if you refuse to meet my needs
-I will stay married to you at all costs, even if it means sacrificing my own happiness
-I will stay married to you even if we are thoroughly incompatible and cannot function as a team

Should a marriage have stipulations attached? Is it appropriate for a spouse to say, "If you refuse to meet my needs, I cannot be married to you anymore"? I used to genuinely believe that there are NO excuses for divorce, aside from abuse. Now I'm questioning my own beliefs. I see so many of you in sexless marriages and in marriages where your spouse is unwilling to cooperate to ensure that needs are met on both sides. Is that fair for someone to have to spend the rest of their lives, miserable, because they are "stuck" in a marriage that is going nowhere but downhill?

If divorce is acceptable in those situations, then do the words "For better or worse" really mean anything then? If they really don't mean much, it makes the whole institution of marriage seem a bit shallow to me, which makes me very uncomfortable. Perhaps I have a skewed picture of what marriage is. I need a fresh perspective.

On the flip side, if a spouse can use the excuse "You aren't meeting my needs" as a citation for divorce, does that make it_ too easy_ to just throw your hands up in the air and give up on the marriage? Where is the line drawn?

I didn't meet my husbands needs for 4 years. I refused to acknowledge them and yet, he told me that he was committed to honoring those vows "For better or worse" and would never leave me. Although I'm ashamed of what I did to him, I am IMMENSELY grateful that he was committed to me 100% the entire time. I did finally come around and we're both working on our marriage as a team now. However, the question has come up, "If I slipped back and refused your needs again, this time for the entirety of the marriage, would you still stay married to me." And his response was that he believes he would not stay. I take this to mean that he respects himself enough to not allow himself to be trapped in an unsatisfying marriage and with someone who does not respect him.

So the original question: What does "For better or worse" really mean? I'm beginning to think that they are merely words. There really are strings attached. There _should_ be strings attached.

I'm just trying to process this in my mind, any thoughts or different perspectives? I'd really love to hear some different ideas, if you have any.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I've always interpreted "for worse" in this context to mean things that aren't within our power to control. Things like not enough money (assuming he's doing everything in his power to provide) or an illness.

Not meeting your spouses needs to me isn't "for worse" it's a choice. Choose not to meet my needs and I will choose to leave. Simple as that. Life is too short to be with someone that isn't even interested in working on making the relationship better or won't consider what I need. It's a two way street though. I will meet my dh's needs and in return I expect him to meet mine as well.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

MGirl said:


> Does the "the worse" part mean :
> 
> -I will stay married to you even if you refuse to meet my needs
> -I will stay married to you at all costs, even if it means sacrificing my own happiness
> -I will stay married to you even if we are thoroughly incompatible and cannot function as a team


I look at worse meaning external bad things; the birth of a deformed child, the death of a child, poverty, acts of God.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> I've always interpreted "for worse" in this context to mean things that aren't within our power to control. Things like not enough money (assuming he's doing everything in his power to provide) or an illness.
> 
> Not meeting your spouses needs to me isn't "for worse" it's a choice. Choose not to meet my needs and I will choose to leave.


:iagree:


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> I've always interpreted "for worse" in this context to mean things that aren't within our power to control. Things like not enough money (assuming he's doing everything in his power to provide) or an illness.
> 
> Not meeting your spouses needs to me isn't "for worse" it's a choice. Choose not to meet my needs and I will choose to leave. Simple as that. Life is too short to be with someone that isn't even interested in working on making the relationship better or won't consider what I need. It's a two way street though. I will meet my dh's needs and in return I expect him to meet mine as well.


I *definitely* agree with this! I don't have many examples of healthy marriages in my family and I'm trying to formulate what a healthy marriage looks like. 

In the church I grew up in, and my family, you stayed with your spouse NO MATTER WHAT. It didn't matter what the circumstances were, you stayed together. I obviously don't agree with that completely anymore, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.

I should mention I am currently non-religious. Haven't attended church in years, so I'm no longer surrounded by that mindset. Just trying to re-adjust my thinking.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I think it means that the spouse needs to be committed to the marriage. When times get rough and someone says "we need serious change or I'm out" or "I'm unhappy and we need to fix things" even in a totally fundamental christian black and white I think that means that if the other person isn't willing to reform that you are in the right to move out until or if they ever do change. 

I think even thinking black and white, you can still demand respect and you can be married a thousand miles away waiting the day that the spouse you married will come back from what they've become.

Issues in marriage are complex. Often it takes a while for someone to see what they are doing and how it affects the relationship and how to do it better. I think it sounds like that was the case for you mgirl and it was the case for me. A communication issue, stubbornness, and stupidity held my marriage from what I needed to be. I stayed when my wife as 99% disconnected due to for better or worse.


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## remmons (Dec 20, 2010)

After my wife filed for divorce, I am saying that it is merely a bunch of words strung into a sentence with no actual meaning.

When my wife and I use to e-mail each other every work day, she use to close with "I Love You", "With Love", "Forever and Always", "Frever Yours", and/or "Eternally Yours", with more of course.

anx, I agree with you when you said that


> Issues in marriage are complex.


 I never knew how complex until I did decide to make the changes as my wife had asked for. She wanted me to become a better person, so I did. She decided instead that she wanted a newer, younger model. She decided that she wanted something different all together. Too bad that her "newer model" was short lived, and we are still separated with a divorce in motion.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

You mentioned growing up in a religious family, so hopefully, the example I once found might help. As a background, I grew up with the opposite background, but converted to my faith as an adult. 

I found an article in a popular religious magazine about the subject. As you know, many religious people believe that divorce is only allowed in the case of abandonment and adultery, based on teachings in the New Testament. What they don't take into account was that the teachings were immediately intended to the audience that was hearing it as the primary context, with us as a scondary. Guess what? At that time, a guy could divorce his wife for any reason he chose.

The intent, the author argued, was that these sections on divorce was trying to tell them that "Divorce for any reason" was wrong. Considering that, when you tell someone that it should be a serious reason, like adultery, you are not necessarily saying that adultery is the only reason, its the seriousness of adultery that is relevant. Pointing back to the old testament, you could argue that when one partner intentionally neglects the committments in the marriage covenant, then divorce becomes an issue between the offended party and God. 

Yes, I understand that people would say that I'm just modifying my beliefs to suit myself, but I found this to be more compelling than abandoning my faith.

On a different note, I should also add that my dad used to say that it usually takes a triple digit IQ to be color blind, and able to see the gray areas. Congratulations!


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

MGirl said:


> In the church I grew up in, and my family, you stayed with your spouse NO MATTER WHAT. It didn't matter what the circumstances were, you stayed together. I obviously don't agree with that completely anymore, but I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.


My dad was a control freak and a jerk. My mother a codependent, martyr who thought herself some sort of saint for sticking to her vows "till death do us part". She should have left his sorry ass a long time ago. As a child I used to beg my mother to leave him but she stayed for reasons to this day I still don't fully understand. He ruined her life and she allowed it to happen. It cost her a child and 3 grandkids as he is so toxic I won't have anything do with either of them now. They've never even met my kids.

But by gosh they stayed TOGETHER. 48 years this July I think. 48 years of wedded chaos. And I'm stuck with a hefty therapy bill trying to recover from their mistakes. So much for it's better for the kids to stay together huh?


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> My dad was a control freak and a jerk. My mother a codependent, martyr who thought herself some sort of saint for sticking to her vows "till death do us part". She should have left his sorry ass a long time ago. As a child I used to beg my mother to leave him but she stayed for reasons to this day I still don't fully understand. He ruined her life and she allowed it to happen. It cost her a child and 3 grandkids as he is so toxic I won't have anything do with either of them now. They've never even met my kids.
> 
> But by gosh they stayed TOGETHER. 48 years this July I think. 48 years of wedded chaos. And I'm stuck with a hefty therapy bill trying to recover from their mistakes. So much for it's better for the kids to stay together huh?


Yup, similar situation here, just a bit less extreme.


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## SadieBrown (Mar 16, 2011)

I agree with what some of the previous posters have said. "For Worse" means the things that happen in life - someone loses a job, someone gets seriously ill, etc. It does NOT mean if one of the partners turns out to be abusive, a chronic cheater, etc. I don't think God intended for us to stay in marriages where we are continually treated badly by our spouse. And if he does then I guess me and him will have a big disagreement come judgement day. . . . . .


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

To chime in again,

@Halien, I don't totally understand your argument, but from what you said, 


> intentionally neglects the committments in the marriage covenant


Sometimes people don't know better and do damage to themselves or their partner unintentionally. It might be stupidity, stubbornness, not fully understanding their partner.

Once you know and understand you are hurting another person and how to fix it, and then the partner needs to work on it with all seriousness and resolve.

Thats where I draw the line at least.

Even if it isn't cheating, treating someone like dirt and then refusing to stop after you know better is something I wouldn't look down on someone for leaving. I would suggest long term separating and see if it improves.



> Yes, I understand that people would say that I'm just modifying my beliefs to suit myself, but I found this to be more compelling than abandoning my faith.


 I wouldn't think you would have to abandon your faith. I think divorce is a forgivable sin like so many others. Its not ideal, but we are human.

Anyways, best of luck

@mgirl, did you ever write out your story.


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## MGirl (Mar 13, 2011)

Anx- my story is a bit scattered about, but the bulk of it is here:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...sexually-repressed-awakened-2.html#post275741 (post #19)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/23105-sexual-chemistry-how-important.html


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

magnoliagal said:


> I've always interpreted "for worse" in this context to mean things that aren't within our power to control. Things like not enough money (assuming he's doing everything in his power to provide) or an illness.
> 
> Not meeting your spouses needs to me isn't "for worse" it's a choice. Choose not to meet my needs and I will choose to leave. Simple as that. Life is too short to be with someone that isn't even interested in working on making the relationship better or won't consider what I need. It's a two way street though. I will meet my dh's needs and in return I expect him to meet mine as well.


This is excellently explained. It really IS about Choice, isn't it? 

Life is too uncertain, to up & leave when a tragedy happens, or unexpected financial loss or sickness, disease, NO, we should stick this out, sometimes these things can overwhelm us to the point of depression but if we are IN IT TOGETHER, choosing to stand strong and choosing to please each other in whatever way we can & are able, this is very powerful, likely such a bond will weather these storms, these "for worses" in life. We will all have them. OUr worst was "Secondary Infertility" for over 6 yrs. 

My husband used to suffer sexually for 19 yrs , always wanting more sex than we had (except when I was pregnant, I was chasing him), he never talked to me about it, fearing I would be upset. (NICE GUY Syndrome!).

After we opened up about ALL things sexual, I asked him --what would you do if I decided I would never have sex with you again, would you leave me? He says to me he would NOT be happy but he would still stay, he loves me that much. I told him he was an A-hole. And that I am NOT that good or loving, I would leave him. 

Ya know, it just depends on what is important to us in life & happiness I guess. I have many "deal breakers" on my list. I would have NEVER been able to be as patient and loving as my husband was for all those years -when he wanted more. I would have raised the roof completely off of the house.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

anx said:


> To chime in again,
> 
> @Halien, I don't totally understand your argument, but from what you said,
> 
> ...


Anx,
For twenty centuries, western civilization, often under the guise of Christiantity, has been driving people to believe that divorce is a sin, except in the extreme case of adultery, based on what they claim that Jesus was teaching. But, Jesus lived in a time where a man could legally divorce his wife for burning his toast, and throw her into a life of destitution. Seriously, a man could even divorce his wife if he no longer liked her voice.

Some will argue that given this atmosphere, he was reminding them that divorce should be taken more seriously than this. As people of religion, its hard to reconcile our belief of God's inherent goodness with advocacy that a woman or man should live a life of misery because of youthful decision making.

If someone is a lousy husband for twenty years, this ingrained belief system leads many to think that he deserves a final chance, now that his wife is threatening to walk away. As reality often proves, many women choose to send him packing. A generation ago, however, that option rarely existed. My point is that historically, these belief systems led many women to yield to societal pressure and stay in a very bad marriage, when I believe that they should've been free to escape it without being branded by society.

Too many, even on this site, sometimes resort to scolding a woman for wanting to exit a long term relationship with a history of selfishness on the part of a husband, telling her that he's now become enlightened, and deserves a chance, when the woman is very obviously coming to this site because she's seeking support for her decision to escape that life. In some cases, if he's really become enlightened, she would likely prefer him to prove it to someone else, and let her go.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

I read a book recently that talked a lot about institutions 100 to 200 years ago. It talked a lot about the role of women. After being married to a man, her role was well defined as second in the marriage due to history, society, and religion. Simply the lack of birth control and that extreme manual labor is better suited for a man were a defining factor in this.

The role and value of women has changed remarkably, and there are still many places around the world where this is not the case.

Society can put just as much pressure on a man to lead. Issues in a marriage should be religiously and intelligently perceived by him. He should know the right way and lead his relationship to that. 

There is also a lot of pressure for a man to be a man and all that entails.

In my own story, I think both my wife and I were doing the best we knew how, and things went south. She didn't realize the impact of internalizing issues and I didn't realize how my being much more vocal and struggling with anxiety in arguments hurt our marriage.

It took my wife saying we needed to get into MC to fix it for us to learn the what, why, and how of our marriage. I wouldn't have asked for MC for a while. I still loved my wife deeply and didn't understand why she would shut down and was so snappy at me. She wasn't as vocal as me and wouldn't bring up issues or tell me how she felt. She was unhappy a long time before I knew. I would beg her sometimes to tell me how she felt. 

I'm having a hard time finding words for this conclusion, so I'll just leave it open without a solid point. 
Vows do mean a lot and are hard to follow in the long run.
People alone are very complex and a marriage between 2 people is even more complex and its amazing people can find a way for it to work sometimes.
Knowing how to make a marriage work isn't easy.
I've recently read "sacred marriage" and I've found it inspirational. 

I'm currently seeking to get my wife to fully reconnect, forgive, and love.

I'm not saying you are wrong halien, and I'm certainly no expert.


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