# "Laying there like a dead fish.." ?



## lovelygirl

I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.

I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior. 
I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing... 

Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


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## WilliamM

I second your question. I read this forum aloud to my wife, and she has questioned this as well. My wife never initiates sex, and is often not very active. She was wondering if another man may have, in another life for instance, called her a dead fish.

I do assure her I think her responsiveness is plenty good enough, but certainly she's nothing like a porn star. I do wonder if the issue has something to do with comparisons to pornography.

Or perhaps I just settle for less than what I should expect? Perhaps I should become disgruntled and dissatisfied because of someone else's description of their wild sex? Well, I'll never be dissatisfied with my girl, so whatever.


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## chillymorn69

She don't reciprocate!

If i'm licking ***** i expect some in return.......maybe not everytime but some .shes always on bottom,and mostly just wants to lay there and be pleasured. She dosen't move her ass or .........like different positions.

Pillow princess,star fish sex,


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## manwithnoname

My wife rarely initiates, the sex is definitely better when she does. When I initiate, sometimes she's just not into it, and you could say she's laying there like a dead fish. All she brings is her attendance. It is an erection killer.


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## Satya

Odo has used that phrase to describe how both his ex W and ex gf were in bed after a time. He says that neither really enjoyed sex (or seemed to) and couldn't get very enthusiastic. One encounter he described as particularly hurtful was him doing all the work, his ex gf lying there and asking how much longer it was going to take him to finish because she wanted to watch Alaskan Ice Road Truckers...


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## Married but Happy

lovelygirl said:


> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


Sadly, I don't need to imagine it - I've experienced a couple of women like this. They really did just lie there and do _nothing_. Not move, not make any sounds, and certainly not do anything at all to get or keep me turned on. They may - or not - let me position them, but that was about it. They're one step up from an inflatable doll. But they did claim to enjoy it - wish I could say the same!

Also known as starfish sex.


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## jld

WilliamM said:


> I second your question. I read this forum aloud to my wife, and she has questioned this as well. My wife never initiates sex, and is often not very active. She was wondering if another man may have, in another life for instance, called her a dead fish.
> 
> I do assure her I think her responsiveness is plenty good enough, but certainly she's nothing like a porn star. *I do wonder if the issue has something to do with comparisons to pornography.*
> 
> Or perhaps I just settle for less than what I should expect? Perhaps I should become disgruntled and dissatisfied because of someone else's description of their wild sex? Well, I'll never be dissatisfied with my girl, so whatever.


Good point, William.


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## SunCMars

lovelygirl said:


> I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.
> 
> I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior.
> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?



The "Whys and the Wherefores" IMO...of why women just "lie there".
.................................................................................................................................................................................
Many women need to detach and* concentrate very hard in order to get in the "groove"*; in order to have an orgasm. Especially, if their clit is not being adequately stimulated.

Better put, *to "feel" their groove.*

They lay back and concentrate on the stimulating movement below then return to the mental and imaginary state. Back and forth, in and out.

Sometimes they raise their head, looking down at the action, seeing his manhood going in and out. Visual stimulus then returns "back" to the mind.

Men live for the action. Pumping and grunting....huffing and puffing for those out of shape, not "conditioned".

By lying still, the ladies are literally doing back and forth, in and out mental gymnastics.


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## 23cm

So, I'm married to one...dead fish is actually the last best resort after

1) playing possum
2) alleged UTI
3) rain check for morning, which can never get claimed
4) and, the current best seller...lower back pain.

Nope, no oral for her...ewwwww!
Nope, no oral for me...jaw problems.

On the rare occasion that the planets are aligned, only two positions permitted IN THE BEDROOM only...missionary and her on top. No doggie as I once bumped her cervix and even though I would be VERY careful in the event it might be back on the table; nope, nada, nein, nyet, non, no.

Wasn't always like this...major U turn after I said "I Do." She says her libido left with the menopause. Seems to me it coincided with the last of the wedding cake. 

Still an exceptional person and a really good roommate.

Thus endith the the lamentation.

BTW, between marriages, I didn't have these issues with GFs and spontaneous partners, so I'm thinking it's not all on me.


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## bandit.45

Some men are just as bad. They lay back and just expect their women to service them. Some men and women are like this. 

Sometimes it's prudishness, but most of the time it is just pure laziness. 

Plain and simple. You fix the problem by getting rid of the problem.


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## m00nman

Satya said:


> Odo has used that phrase to describe how both his ex W and ex gf were in bed after a time. He says that neither really enjoyed sex (or seemed to) and couldn't get very enthusiastic. One encounter he described as particularly hurtful was him doing all the work, his ex gf lying there and asking how much longer it was going to take him to finish because she wanted to watch Alaskan Ice Road Truckers...


Ouch. 

That actually hits pretty close to home. It's on my list of grievances - but it's actually not near the top. It's just a symptom of a deeper problem that I prefer to address in IC/MC and not on teh Interwebz.


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## Evinrude58

Satya said:


> Odo has used that phrase to describe how both his ex W and ex gf were in bed after a time. He says that neither really enjoyed sex (or seemed to) and couldn't get very enthusiastic. One encounter he described as particularly hurtful was him doing all the work, his ex gf lying there and asking how much longer it was going to take him to finish because she wanted to watch Alaskan Ice Road Truckers...


I had to laugh at the ice road truckers comment.
Wow, too "cold".


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## Evinrude58

23cm said:


> So, I'm married to one...dead fish is actually the last best resort after
> 
> 1) playing possum
> 2) alleged UTI
> 3) rain check for morning, which can never get claimed
> 4) and, the current best seller...lower back pain.
> 
> Nope, no oral for her...ewwwww!
> Nope, no oral for me...jaw problems.
> 
> On the rare occasion that the planets are aligned, only two positions permitted IN THE BEDROOM only...missionary and her on top. No doggie as I once bumped her cervix and even though I would be VERY careful in the event it might be back on the table; nope, nada, nein, nyet, non, no.
> 
> Wasn't always like this...major U turn after I said "I Do." She says her libido left with the menopause. Seems to me it coincided with the last of the wedding cake.
> 
> Still an exceptional person and a really good roommate.
> 
> Thus endith the the lamentation.
> 
> BTW, between marriages, I didn't have these issues with GFs and spontaneous partners, so I'm thinking it's not all on me.


My gosh, you really need to just.......
Get outa there.

Too many sexy women out there to tolerate a dead fish.


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## john117

Evinrude58 said:


> I had to laugh at the ice road truckers comment.
> Wow, too "cold".


Maybe they're hauling dead fish...


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## Faithful Wife

WilliamM said:


> I second your question. I read this forum aloud to my wife, and she has questioned this as well. My wife never initiates sex, and is often not very active. She was wondering if another man may have, in another life for instance, called her a dead fish.
> 
> I do assure her I think her responsiveness is plenty good enough, but certainly she's nothing like a porn star. *I do wonder if the issue has something to do with comparisons to pornography.*
> 
> Or perhaps I just settle for less than what I should expect? Perhaps I should become disgruntled and dissatisfied because of someone else's description of their wild sex? Well, I'll never be dissatisfied with my girl, so whatever.


I thought the bolded part was sort of an odd thing to say. Just wanting a woman to not lay there lifeless is due to comparisons to porn? 

I know what starfish sex is by explanations from men and by depictions in movies. There was a female poster here at one time who described her partner as "barely lifting his head off the pillow" when they had sex. Guys can be a starfish, too. I'm pretty sure just because she wanted more participation from him, it wasn't because she was making comparisons to porn. (In fact, that guy was apparently all about watching porn, yet was himself a starfish in bed).

I could never just lay still during sex. It wouldn't feel good at all. I have to move against (or with) the motion, I want to feel the friction, I need to move my body into the positions it feels best at that time, I need to push back against and pull away from him when he's behind me, I like changing positions altogether and changing things up, I like to take a break while changing positions sometimes and just kiss or talk or look into each other's eyes, then hop back on and ride him into the sunset. Being on top and riding him is my favorite and I'm doing most of the moving in that position...though he is moving a lot too and can even "pound me from the bottom" sometimes (which is quite a feat!). The only time I have to be completely still is when he is pounding me from the top....I can't be moving around or one of us could get hurt. Though I am still showing with my upper body, my face and my voice how much fun I'm having. Sometimes I get to a state of euphoria and my eyes roll back in my head...that's as close as I get to not moving. Though it is clear when that happens that I am enjoying myself. :smthumbup:

Actually, it is always clear I am enjoying myself during sex, no matter what we are doing. I am very vocal and expressive in body language. I also use my words. "Oh baby, that's freaking awesome....keep doing that!" We also talk dirty or talk about fantasies during sex.

None of this comes to me because I "learned it from porn". Although there's plenty of times the sex I have is straight up porn worthy, I'm not doing it because it would "look" like porn from the outside. I'm doing it because it feels good to me! This is normal and natural for me, being extremely sexual and expressive. Even slow, romantic sex for me includes me moving and making yummy sounds and expressing my pleasure in many ways.

When someone has sex they describe as starfish sex, they mean their partner barely moves, does not seem to enjoy the sex, may even seem annoyed by having sex, or will have their eyes shut tight the whole time as if trying to block out what is going on. They don't make noise, they seem somewhat lifeless, they seem to just want it over as quickly as possible. They may be offering their body up to have sex with, but their heart and soul has exited for the time being.

I don't know why anyone would have sex like this more than once. If a partner was this way with me (or even just a portion of it), I would split. I need engagement, passion, communication, and presence with a sexual partner. And again...not because of comparisons to porn. I know what passionate sex looks and feels like, and that is rarely what is seen in porn anyway.


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## lisacolorado

I have an idea for you and your dead fish sex wife: Tease. Touch her a little bit where she likes to be touched, and then stop. Touch her another spot she likes to be touched, and then stop. Then touch her forehead, brush her hair back or something, then stop. Make her come to you if she wants a little more. 

This is going to sound like blaming the victim, but what's a live fish flopping around on a dead one? It's a creel.


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## Fozzy

Faithful Wife said:


> I thought the bolded part was sort of an odd thing to say. Just wanting a woman to not lay there lifeless is due to comparisons to porn?
> 
> I know what starfish sex is by explanations from men and by depictions in movies. There was a female poster here at one time who described her partner as "barely lifting his head off the pillow" when they had sex. Guys can be a starfish, too. I'm pretty sure just because she wanted more participation from him, it wasn't because she was making comparisons to porn. (In fact, that guy was apparently all about watching porn, yet was himself a starfish in bed).
> 
> I could never just lay still during sex. It wouldn't feel good at all. I have to move against (or with) the motion, I want to feel the friction, I need to move my body into the positions it feels best at that time, I need to push back against and pull away from him when he's behind me, I like changing positions altogether and changing things up, I like to take a break while changing positions sometimes and just kiss or talk or look into each other's eyes, then hop back on and ride him into the sunset. Being on top and riding him is my favorite and I'm doing most of the moving in that position...though he is moving a lot too and can even "pound me from the bottom" sometimes (which is quite a feat!). The only time I have to be completely still is when he is pounding me from the top....I can't be moving around or one of us could get hurt. Though I am still showing with my upper body, my face and my voice how much fun I'm having. Sometimes I get to a state of euphoria and my eyes roll back in my head...that's as close as I get to not moving. Though it is clear when that happens that I am enjoying myself. :smthumbup:
> 
> Actually, it is always clear I am enjoying myself during sex, no matter what we are doing. I am very vocal and expressive in body language. I also use my words. "Oh baby, that's freaking awesome....keep doing that!" We also talk dirty or talk about fantasies during sex.
> 
> None of this comes to me because I "learned it from porn". Although there's plenty of times the sex I have is straight up porn worthy, I'm not doing it because it would "look" like porn from the outside. I'm doing it because it feels good to me! This is normal and natural for me, being extremely sexual and expressive. Even slow, romantic sex for me includes me moving and making yummy sounds and expressing my pleasure in many ways.
> 
> When someone has sex they describe as starfish sex, they mean their partner barely moves, does not seem to enjoy the sex, may even seem annoyed by having sex, or will have their eyes shut tight the whole time as if trying to block out what is going on. They don't make noise, they seem somewhat lifeless, they seem to just want it over as quickly as possible. They may be offering their body up to have sex with, but their heart and soul has exited for the time being.
> 
> I don't know why anyone would have sex like this more than once. If a partner was this way with me (or even just a portion of it), I would split. I need engagement, passion, communication, and presence with a sexual partner. And again...not because of comparisons to porn. I know what passionate sex looks and feels like, and that is rarely what is seen in porn anyway.


Yep. Lots of folks eager to blame pornography for everything under the sun-patterned sheets, when I think a lot of the time it comes down to just being bad at sex. There's pornstar sex, and then there's _participatory _sex. They aren't the same thing, but they might appear the same from the perspective of someone who prefers to be a semi pose-able figure with a pulse.


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## Andy1001

Sex doesn't have to be in bed.Try the shower,the kitchen,the garden.Variety is the spice of life.


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## 269370

lovelygirl said:


> I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.
> 
> I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior.
> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


First of all she would need to have gills.
Unless she's a starfish.


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## 269370

And a slightly more serious answer:

I personally think it is less to do with the woman's 'activity' during the act but more to do with how the guy perceives what the woman feels. And you can usually tell when a woman is enjoying herself (and even better when that happens while I am in the same room . I could be wrong but assuming there's regular sex act going on (not circus sex), I can imagine there are only so many things a woman can physically be doing while being made love to..
Unless she is on top. Although it might also be unnatural to simulate a bull rodeo to be honest. Plus the dangers of breaking the penis in half are real, people....

So if she is hoovering/washing up at the same time then she is not dead by any means. Conversely, if a guy is working on his abs/ass muscles simultaneously, then he is also a great lover.
(Ok, please ignore the terrible last para, I am just quoting from Men's Health magazine 

Maybe some guys just say it because they are sore that they can't find a way to satisfy the said fishwoman? (ok, now we are even, Men's Health


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## _anonymous_

lovelygirl said:


> What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


I always presumed that when this expression was applied to a woman, it indicated her disinterest during sex. The amount of work the woman puts into sex is related to her interest level, but the two are not the same and I never thought of this expression applying to that.

My wife often grows disinterested in sex after she climaxes, even if I haven't yet climaxed. Sometimes, maybe just 15 minutes into intercourse, she has already climaxed, is laying there limply, and while I'm still pounding away, she'll ask "Why don't you finish already?" 

This behavior earns her the label of "dead fish" with me. To keep the peace, I typically refrain from using those exact words, should we discuss my frustration. I'm guessing most ladies would find the title offensive...


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## 269370

_anonymous_ said:


> I always presumed that when this expression was applied to a woman, it indicated her disinterest during sex. The amount of work the woman puts into sex is related to her interest level, but the two are not the same and I never thought of this expression applying to that.
> 
> This behavior earns her the label of "dead fish" with me. To keep the peace, I typically refrain from using those exact words, should we discuss my frustration. I'm guessing most ladies would find the title offensive...


The fish or the dead part?



_anonymous_ said:


> My wife often grows disinterested in sex after she climaxes, even if I haven't yet climaxed. Sometimes, maybe just 15 minutes into intercourse, she has already climaxed, is laying there limply, and while I'm still pounding away, she'll ask "Why don't you finish already?"


There is no way I could go on to 'completion' if that was the case. Quelle horreur!
My sympathies.


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## WilliamM

My reference to pornography is because I have seen references to pornography in posts wherein the poster was suggesting their spouse should do some activities as seen in some video, and act in some fashion, with a reference to how some porn star acts. 

I just hope nobody would ever feel their lovers are substandard if they are not as active as mainstream porn.

These descriptions are interesting.


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## 269370

WilliamM said:


> My reference to pornography is because I have seen references to pornography in posts wherein the poster was suggesting their spouse should do some activities as seen in some video, and act in some fashion, with a reference to how some porn star acts.


Many of the activities of porn stars surely refer to them either trying not to cry or gag (or both).

Ok, that's not being fair to porn...A lot of them are very wealthy people!


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## lovelygirl

It's a pity to want someone to act like in porn as it means that the person who has such desires is living in fairy tales.
I'd consider him to be immature if he asked me to act like a pornstar.


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## WilliamM

I suspect only a few people would use porn as an education tool, and not realize it is total fantasy and unrealistic. 

Oh well. 

The descriptions are interesting. A picture is worth a thousand words. A video is worth how many?

Words oft times are not adequate.


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## DustyDog

lovelygirl said:


> I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.
> 
> I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior.
> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?



I'd have never used the phrase "dead fish". I have an ex-LTR whose preference in sex was to lay on her back with me on top. With this particular woman, I found that positioning myself relatively high on her...e.g moving my pelvic bone towards her chest rather than lower...gave enough stimulation to her C to bring her rapidly to an orgasm, and she liked it that way. If she moved even a bit, it happened faster. We both wanted it to not be too quick, as we enjoyed the activity. I moved around a bit to different positions to slow things down and extend the activity. If I rolled us over with her on top, she said it was "boring", but I enjoyed the extended time. We nearly always climaxed together, because as she got closer, she'd whisper "come come come to me"...I would stop holding back at that point and was always able to get myself to a point where the moment she clamped around me, that's all I needed. About 90% of the time.

More commonly for me, I need to give the woman a great deal more simulation, as foreplay and during, and most of my (small qty) of partners seemed to prefer that I do the stimulating and she not do much of it - I think in both cases because their religious upbringing somehow taught them that self-pleasure was sinful.

I also had a couple of short relationships with women who were far more physically active in the sack, and in those few cases, I was fairly certain they were trying to prove their performance capabilities.

All in all, all such relationships were enjoyable, as in all cases, they satisfied both partners.


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## 269370

What do you call it if both lie there like dead fish, next to each other and (potentially) snoring


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## Haiku

Introduce a defibrillator to the bedroom?


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## arbitrator

lovelygirl said:


> I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.
> 
> I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior.
> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


*I'd much rather hump my hand! It would at least show some semblance of life!*


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## arbitrator

inmyprime said:


> *What do you call it if both lie there like dead fish, next to each other and (potentially) snoring?*


*A cemetery!*


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## _anonymous_

inmyprime said:


> The fish or the dead part?
> There is no way I could go on to 'completion' if that was the case. Quelle horreur!
> My sympathies.


Thank you, sir. I am of a similar sentiment, with perhaps a higher tolerance for these things. 

My limit is her pulling out her phone and texting while sex, or turning on the TV. Either would end it for me. Hasn't happened yet, but with enough time, who knows?


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## arbitrator

_anonymous_ said:


> Thank you, sir. I am of a similar sentiment, with perhaps a higher tolerance for these things.
> 
> My limit is her pulling out her phone and texting while sex, or turning on the TV. Either would end it for me. Hasn't happened yet, but with enough time, who knows?


*I think that I would absolutely lose it if I was in the amorous process of being busy knocking back a piece of trim and my love interest pulled out her iPhone to get herself a little texting in! *


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## 1RedKing

Faithful Wife said:


> I thought the bolded part was sort of an odd thing to say. Just wanting a woman to not lay there lifeless is due to comparisons to porn?
> 
> I know what starfish sex is by explanations from men and by depictions in movies. There was a female poster here at one time who described her partner as "barely lifting his head off the pillow" when they had sex. Guys can be a starfish, too. I'm pretty sure just because she wanted more participation from him, it wasn't because she was making comparisons to porn. (In fact, that guy was apparently all about watching porn, yet was himself a starfish in bed).
> 
> I could never just lay still during sex. It wouldn't feel good at all. I have to move against (or with) the motion, I want to feel the friction, I need to move my body into the positions it feels best at that time, I need to push back against and pull away from him when he's behind me, I like changing positions altogether and changing things up, I like to take a break while changing positions sometimes and just kiss or talk or look into each other's eyes, then hop back on and ride him into the sunset. Being on top and riding him is my favorite and I'm doing most of the moving in that position...though he is moving a lot too and can even "pound me from the bottom" sometimes (which is quite a feat!). The only time I have to be completely still is when he is pounding me from the top....I can't be moving around or one of us could get hurt. Though I am still showing with my upper body, my face and my voice how much fun I'm having. Sometimes I get to a state of euphoria and my eyes roll back in my head...that's as close as I get to not moving. Though it is clear when that happens that I am enjoying myself. :smthumbup:
> 
> Actually, it is always clear I am enjoying myself during sex, no matter what we are doing. I am very vocal and expressive in body language. I also use my words. "Oh baby, that's freaking awesome....keep doing that!" We also talk dirty or talk about fantasies during sex.
> 
> None of this comes to me because I "learned it from porn". Although there's plenty of times the sex I have is straight up porn worthy, I'm not doing it because it would "look" like porn from the outside. I'm doing it because it feels good to me! This is normal and natural for me, being extremely sexual and expressive. Even slow, romantic sex for me includes me moving and making yummy sounds and expressing my pleasure in many ways.
> 
> When someone has sex they describe as starfish sex, they mean their partner barely moves, does not seem to enjoy the sex, may even seem annoyed by having sex, or will have their eyes shut tight the whole time as if trying to block out what is going on. They don't make noise, they seem somewhat lifeless, they seem to just want it over as quickly as possible. They may be offering their body up to have sex with, but their heart and soul has exited for the time being.
> 
> I don't know why anyone would have sex like this more than once. If a partner was this way with me (or even just a portion of it), I would split. I need engagement, passion, communication, and presence with a sexual partner. And again...not because of comparisons to porn. I know what passionate sex looks and feels like, and that is rarely what is seen in porn anyway.


After reading that post I have to ask, if you decide to review that username anytime you will let us know wont you?

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## 269370

_anonymous_ said:


> Thank you, sir. I am of a similar sentiment, with perhaps a higher tolerance for these things.
> 
> My limit is her pulling out her phone and texting while sex, or turning on the TV. Either would end it for me. Hasn't happened yet, but with enough time, who knows?


Sounds fishy to me


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## jld

I don't think my husband cares what I say or do during sex, as long as I am compliant.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


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## Faithful Wife

1RedKing said:


> After reading that post I have to ask, if you decide to review that username anytime you will let us know wont you?


I'm actually divorced now. I have contemplated changing my user name because I'm no longer a wife.

But I've been here so long, people are used to my user name (and most know I'm divorced now).

Having said that....TAM isn't where I'd put myself out there for dating.


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## naiveonedave

lovelygirl said:


> I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.
> 
> I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior.
> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


dead fish = non-participatory partner. Sometimes it is due to her lack of experience, but usually it because she is either giving pity sex (I need to have sex with my H, but I don't want sex) or she is just bad in bed....


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## DayOne

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm actually divorced now. I have contemplated changing my user name because I'm no longer a wife.
> 
> But I've been here so long, people are used to my user name (and most know I'm divorced now).
> 
> Having said that....TAM isn't where I'd put myself out there for dating.


Keep your user name. Like you said, we know who you are. 

Others, however, might want to take the time to learn who you are, and your story before casting aspersions...


----------



## 1RedKing

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm actually divorced now. I have contemplated changing my user name because I'm no longer a wife.
> 
> But I've been here so long, people are used to my user name (and most know I'm divorced now).
> 
> Having said that....TAM isn't where I'd put myself out there for dating.


Fair point on TAM and dating. 
Its probably a good place to avoid. 
I'll cop to a drive by posting, this isn't my usual board so I'm not up on the whos who, no matter, nice to meet you anyway.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk


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## Taxman

Had this happen with one ex-gf. She said that her mother told her that only ****s move and enjoy sex. OKayyyyyyyyyyyyyy! That relationship did not work out.


----------



## Yeswecan

lovelygirl said:


> I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.
> 
> I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior.
> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


Just that. Lay there doing nothing and letting the deed be done. Add a yawn or two. Maybe check the clock.


----------



## uhtred

I see "dead fish" as the opposite of "passionate". A passionate lover is caught up in what they are doing, enjoys their own pleasure and the pleasure of their partner. Their full attention is on sex and their partner. 

Dead fish / starfish sex would be completely uninteresting. Its also why I've never been in the slightest tempted by prostitutes - what fun is there in having sex with someone who is just working on the clock.


----------



## Chris Taylor

Satya said:


> asking how much longer it was going to take him to finish because she wanted to watch Alaskan Ice Road Truckers...


To be fir, I don't want to miss AIRT either.


----------



## jld

Chris Taylor said:


> To be fir, I don't want to miss AIRT either.


Lol


----------



## Phil Anders

Argh. The verb is LIE. _Lying_ there like a dead fish. There are no transitory birds transitively laying their eggs here. And the OP's guy-friend is getting laid, but he definitely isn't happy about it. 

I know, I know...a forum grammar nazi is about as welcome as heat rash.
But about every 50th time I see it, I _have_ to say something out loud. It's for me, to avoid implosion and bleeding eyeballs, but maybe the one person in 20 who isn't offended will actually appreciate knowing the right word. 

The porn comparison is mainly a false dichotomy. Women can be energetic, athletic, vocal or quiet (I skipped the Oxford comma. A style thing! Like sentence fragments.) Granted, it's nice if you cooperate a little, physically speaking: You might let a man lead when you dance, but you've still got to move your feet! And most of us like a little initiative and aggression, as when you climb on top and have your way with us. 

But "dead fish" is usually a metaphorical complaint about a lack of focus and engagement. No one wants a partner who's mentally Somewhere Else, doing Something (or Someone) Else. 

It doesn't take much to show engagement, if you are not the porn star type. You can literally Just Lie There as you're getting laid...but if you're looking deep into our eyes, making even small sounds of pleasure, pushing back into us even slightly with your hips, then we know you're fully present in the moment with us. 

In that case, we promise not to complain, make ungracious necro-piscatory comparisons...or even comment on the verbs you use.


----------



## uhtred

That is so sad. One of the greatest joys of sex is driving your partner wild. If you just want to get off, without any connection, your favorite hand is a much simpler option. 



jld said:


> I don't think my husband cares what I say or do during sex, as long as I am compliant.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> That is so sad. One of the greatest joys of sex is driving your partner wild. If you just want to get off, without any connection, your favorite hand is a much simpler option.


I don't think he would ever prefer masturbation to intercourse. I would not, either. 

For sure, my husband is not picky. I have never felt any pressure to respond in any way other than whatever I was genuinely feeling at the moment. And he has always seemed very happy with me.

Again, different strokes for different folks.


----------



## Fozzy

Phil Anders said:


> You might let a man lead when you dance, but you've still got to move your feet!


I'm stealing this.


----------



## heartsbeating

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know why anyone would have sex like this more than once. If a partner was this way with me (or even just a portion of it), I would split. I need engagement, passion, communication, and presence with a sexual partner. And again...not because of comparisons to porn. I know what passionate sex looks and feels like, and that is rarely what is seen in porn anyway.


Amen!


----------



## uhtred

If you are both enjoying then that is completely fine. 

I think often people (including me) assume that someone who is very passive during sex isn't enjoying it. That may not be true for some. 



jld said:


> I don't think he would ever prefer masturbation to intercourse. I would not, either.
> 
> For sure, my husband is not picky. I have never felt any pressure to respond in any way other than whatever I was genuinely feeling at the moment. And he has always seemed very happy with me.
> 
> Again, different strokes for different folks.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> If you are both enjoying then that is completely fine.
> 
> I think often people (including me) assume that someone who is very passive during sex isn't enjoying it. That may not be true for some.


We definitely have a mutually enjoyable sex life. 

And I am usually quite responsive. But even the times when I have mostly just been accommodating him, it did not bother either one of us. It certainly still feels good, and is a moment of closeness.

Again, different strokes for different folks.


----------



## Juice

This thread sums up the kryptonite in my marriage. It's a constant battle between my W and I. 

She thinks everything is just dandy; I on the other hand find sex boring with her. No passion, enthusiasm, or adventure which equals the classic starfish.

So now in order to enjoy sex a little bit. I have to say do this or that (e.g. give me a BJ, bend over, get on top). It's generally okay but with a slight sigh at times.

Frequency is 1-2 times a week with a scale of 2-3/10 in quality. 





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## farsidejunky

Fozzy said:


> I'm stealing this.


Ditto.


----------



## farsidejunky

Juice said:


> This thread sums up the kryptonite in my marriage. It's a constant battle between my W and I.
> 
> She thinks everything is just dandy; I on the other hand find sex boring with her. No passion, enthusiasm, or adventure which equals the classic starfish.
> 
> So now in order to enjoy sex a little bit. I have to say do this or that (e.g. give me a BJ, bend over, get on top). It's generally okay but with a slight sigh at times.
> 
> Frequency is 1-2 times a week with a scale of 2-3/10 in quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


What did she say when you told her that your sex life is lackluster? Or is my question rhetorical?


----------



## Juice

farsidejunky said:


> What did she say when you told her that your sex life is lackluster? Or is my question rhetorical?


Well...good question. She said "We have to do it more!". I explained that's not the problem. I told her that quality trumps quantity and it just seems like you're in a hurry to get it over with (duty sex). She thinks I'm wrong and that I'm never satisfied. 

She's is a little controlling (which is fine with me) and she's finding out that this part of our marriage is out of control because I start to become distant from her when we go through the motions. 

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## AtMyEnd

It's actually pretty simple. If a woman just lays there motionless, not making much of a sound and just seems like they're not into it, the man is eventually going to lose interest in having sex with her. Whether it's because he feels he simply can't satisfy the woman no matter what he tries or even if he knows he satisfied her but received no reciprocation. Yes it happens from time to time that my wife just lays there during sex, not often but it happens. For whatever reason she's not into it but wants to make me happy or whatever, but the thing is that her just laying there doesn't make me happy. There needs to be some kind of involvement from both sides


----------



## jld

AtMyEnd said:


> It's actually pretty simple. If a woman just lays there motionless, not making much of a sound and just seems like they're not into it, the man is eventually going to lose interest in having sex with her. Whether it's because he feels he simply can't satisfy the woman no matter what he tries or even if he knows he satisfied her but received no reciprocation. Yes it happens from time to time that my wife just lays there during sex, not often but it happens. For whatever reason she's not into it but wants to make me happy or whatever, but the thing is that her just laying there doesn't make me happy. There needs to be some kind of involvement from both sides


Or some acceptance of each person's efforts.


----------



## jld

Juice said:


> This thread sums up the kryptonite in my marriage. It's a constant battle between my W and I.
> 
> She thinks everything is just dandy; I on the other hand find sex boring with her. No passion, enthusiasm, or adventure which equals the classic starfish.
> 
> So now in order to enjoy sex a little bit. I have to say do this or that (e.g. give me a BJ, bend over, get on top). It's generally okay but with a slight sigh at times.
> 
> Frequency is 1-2 times a week with a scale of 2-3/10 in quality.


Do you think it is abnormal to tell her what to do during sex? 

I don't. I think it is really sexy and normal for the man to take charge like that.

Honestly, a man not doing that would seem very strange to me.


----------



## AtMyEnd

jld said:


> Or some acceptance of each person's efforts.


Well it's not even acceptance of a person efforts. If you're looking and expecting some kind of acceptance or approval of what you're doing, sex or otherwise, you're never going to be happy. If you truly want to be happy in any relationship you need to drop almost all expectations of the other person and just let things happen. But at the same time, if the other person doesn't show some type of appreciation or reciprocation of your efforts or something you do, they can't get mad when you stop doing those things for them.


----------



## Juice

jld said:


> Do you think it is abnormal to tell her what to do during sex?
> 
> I don't. I think it is really sexy and normal for the man to take charge like that.
> 
> Honestly, a man not doing that would seem very strange to me.


No I do not think it's abnormal to take charge, but I find it sexy if a woman does here share. For example just gets down on her knees and gives oral looking you on the eyes. 

I feel like I'm directing a virgin in the bedroom. 

I like being in charge, but when its a one way street with no enthusiasm it tends to be boring to me. 



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## jld

AtMyEnd said:


> Well it's not even acceptance of a person efforts. If you're looking and expecting some kind of acceptance or approval of what you're doing, sex or otherwise, you're never going to be happy. If you truly want to be happy in any relationship you need to drop almost all expectations of the other person and just let things happen. But at the same time, if the other person doesn't show some type of appreciation or reciprocation of your efforts or something you do, they can't get mad when you stop doing those things for them.


If I did not feel acceptance and approval from my husband, we would not even be together, much less having sex together.

Funny how different people can see things so differently . . .


----------



## jld

Juice said:


> No I do not think it's abnormal to take charge, but I find it sexy if a woman does here share. For example just gets down on her knees and gives oral looking you on the eyes.
> 
> I feel like I'm directing a virgin in the bedroom.
> 
> I like being in charge, but when its a one way street with no enthusiasm it tends to be boring to me.


Lol, my husband told me to kneel in front of him just last night. Being told to do it is part of the excitement to me.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


----------



## Herschel

jld said:


> Lol, my husband told me to kneel in front of him just last night. Being told to do it is part of the excitement to me.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


Pretend it says Dug...


----------



## EllisRedding

Fozzy said:


> Yep. Lots of folks eager to blame pornography for everything under the sun-patterned sheets, when I think a lot of the time it comes down to just being bad at sex. There's pornstar sex, and then there's _participatory _sex. They aren't the same thing, but they might appear the same from the perspective of someone who prefers to be a semi pose-able figure with a pulse.


Completely agreed with this. I get that porn is more accessible now, but you would think that a) porn in some form never existed before and b) if you have a sex hangup it must be porn's fault :scratchhead:

The other thing to think of, some guy out there had to coin the phrase "dead fish" as a comparison to sleeping with a woman who just lied there. Makes you wonder, how did he know what it was like to sleep with a dead fish ...


----------



## jld

Herschel said:


> Pretend it says Dug...


 That was not how it happened . . . Nothing appealing about that approach to me.


----------



## Herschel

jld said:


> That was not how it happened . . . Nothing appealing about that approach to me.


It was a joke! lol


----------



## AtMyEnd

jld said:


> If I did not feel acceptance and approval from my husband, we would not even be together, much less having sex together.
> 
> Funny how different people can see things so differently . . .


There's a big difference between feeling acceptance and expecting acceptance. Yes, feeling acceptance is a key factor in couples being together and staying together. But it's when one expects to feel acceptance about something and doesn't for whatever reason that causes problems. My point is that the less you expect out of a person the more you feel and appreciate things when they do happen.


----------



## jld

Herschel said:


> It was a joke! lol


Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## jld

AtMyEnd said:


> There's a big difference between feeling acceptance and expecting acceptance. Yes, feeling acceptance is a key factor in couples being together and staying together. But it's when one expects to feel acceptance about something and doesn't for whatever reason that causes problems. My point is that the less you expect out of a person the more you feel and appreciate things when they do happen.


Well, I do expect a certain amount of acceptance. It is part of compatibility.

If we did not just gel, I doubt we would have stayed together.


----------



## Juice

jld said:


> Lol, my husband told me to kneel in front of him just last night. Being told to do it is part of the excitement to me.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks, I guess.


That's Awesome! I'm sure you gladly did it with enthusiastic energy and passion too. 

My situation on the other hand would go like this. Me.. Get on your knees..her. ugh do I have too... me...cmon.. her...fine..(20-30 seconds in).... my mouth hurts can we just do it. 

Haha

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## jld

Juice said:


> That's Awesome! I'm sure you gladly did it with enthusiastic energy and passion too.
> 
> My situation on the other hand would go like this. Me.. Get on your knees..her. ugh do I have too... me...cmon.. her...fine..(20-30 seconds in).... my mouth hurts can we just do it.
> 
> Haha
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Use some humor with her. Get her giggling, and you will both have fun.

Guys, sex is supposed to be a good time. What are you doing to make it so?


----------



## arbitrator

EllisRedding said:


> Completely agreed with this. I get that porn is more accessible now, but you would think that a) porn in some form never existed before and b) if you have a sex hangup it must be porn's fault :scratchhead:
> 
> The other thing to think of, some guy out there had to coin the phrase "dead fish" as a comparison to sleeping with a woman who just lied there. Makes you wonder, how did he know what it was like to sleep with a dead fish ...


*I'd venture to say that he was only using a rather vivid imagination in using the moniker, "cold fish!" 

In which case, a man's primary hand can show lots more emotion!

And the nice thing about it is that you don't even have to take it out for dinner and drinks!

*


----------



## jld

Juice said:


> That's Awesome! I'm sure you gladly did it with enthusiastic energy and passion too.
> 
> My situation on the other hand would go like this. Me.. Get on your knees..*her. ugh do I have too... *me...cmon.. her...fine..(20-30 seconds in).... my mouth hurts can we just do it.
> 
> Haha
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


Lots of potential for fun there, Juice . . .


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

I was, for some years, married to a "dead fish," Like most men in a similar situation, I took it personally. 

However, I learned (she told me when I brought it up) that to fully feel the sensations and get the most out of it, she really needed to block everything out and concentration on what was going on down there. Any sounds, talk, or even movement on her part was a distraction that took away from the sensation. 

Knowing didn't make it any more fun, but understanding this did help my sensitive male ego. 

Eventually, she became comfortable enough with what was going on that she no longer needed this level of focus and concentration. She can be more active without loosing her rhythm. I suspect it took more patience and practice for us, but all's well that ends well.


----------



## Juice

jld said:


> Use some humor with her. Get her giggling, and you will both have fun.
> 
> Guys, sex is supposed to be a good time. What are you doing to make it so?


Lol! Thanks for the input. You just humored me by blaming us guys. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


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## jld

arbitrator said:


> And the nice thing about it is that you don't even have to take it out for dinner and drinks!


----------



## uhtred

The sigh is a huge problem. Its OK to not want what your partner wants in bed, but dismissing it with a sigh is bad.




Juice said:


> This thread sums up the kryptonite in my marriage. It's a constant battle between my W and I.
> 
> She thinks everything is just dandy; I on the other hand find sex boring with her. No passion, enthusiasm, or adventure which equals the classic starfish.
> 
> So now in order to enjoy sex a little bit. I have to say do this or that (e.g. give me a BJ, bend over, get on top). It's generally okay but with a slight sigh at times.
> 
> Frequency is 1-2 times a week with a scale of 2-3/10 in quality.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Juice said:


> Lol! Thanks for the input. You just humored me by blaming us guys.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk


You are dominant in the bedroom, right? Of course I am going to ask you what your plan for making things fun is. You are the one in charge.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> The sigh is a huge problem. Its OK to not want what your partner wants in bed, but dismissing it with a sigh is bad.


Taking her reactions personally is likely to dampen her enthusiasm, uhtred.

Be a leader. Let a sigh roll off your back. 

Better yet, find a way to make her laugh about it. The more relaxed she is, the better a time you will both have.


----------



## uhtred

Sadly some people don't view sex that way. It takes both to make sex fun, one person can't do it on their own.

If suggestions / requests get rejected frequently, most people will just give up. 






jld said:


> Use some humor with her. Get her giggling, and you will both have fun.
> 
> Guys, sex is supposed to be a good time. What are you doing to make it so?


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> Sadly some people don't view sex that way. It takes both to make sex fun, one person can't do it on their own.
> 
> If suggestions / requests get rejected frequently, most people will just give up.


My husband would not give up. He would not look to me for leadership, either.

I think you guys need more confidence. Confident men make sex fun.


----------



## Andy1001

Fozzy said:


> I'm stealing this.


And me lol.


----------



## uhtred

Actually my wife doesn't sigh, she just says no - with an excuse if one is available, or a "I don't feel like that" if not. With an occasional land-mine of "why would you want to do that", or "weird", or "that's kind of abusive". She fully believes that as long as both people got off, it was good, so the goal is to get there the simplest way possible. 










jld said:


> Taking her reactions personally is likely to dampen her enthusiasm, uhtred.
> 
> Be a leader. Let a sigh roll off your back.
> 
> Better yet, find a way to make her laugh about it. The more relaxed she is, the better a time you will both have.


----------



## Andy1001

Sex is like math in many ways.
Add a bed.
Subtract clothes.
Divide legs.
Pray you don't multiply.


----------



## jld

uhtred said:


> Actually my wife doesn't sigh, she just says no - with an excuse if one is available, or a "I don't feel like that" if not. With an occasional land-mine of "why would you want to do that", or "weird", or "that's kind of abusive". She fully believes that as long as both people got off, it was good, so the goal is to get there the simplest way possible.


Wow, very results-focused lady. And I bet you are more process-oriented.


----------



## arbitrator

uhtred said:


> Actually my wife doesn't sigh, she just says no - with an excuse if one is available, or a "I don't feel like that" if not. With an occasional land-mine of "why would you want to do that", or "weird", or "that's kind of abusive". She fully believes that as long as both people got off, it was good, so the goal is to get there the simplest way possible.


*The way that I see it, it's not necessarily "getting to the top of the mountain" that matters! But it's moreso your loving and caring journey up that mountain together that really matters the most!

And if, perchance, you reach the apex of that mountain together, then that just happens to make that overall journey up it most worthwhile!*


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> My husband would not give up. He would not look to me for leadership, either.
> 
> I think you guys need more confidence. Confident men make sex fun.


I'm plenty confident, and I make sex fun. I'm also confident that I could find a better partner if my wife wasn't doing the same! (I gave up on my ex, and replaced her with a very creative, confident, fully participative partner. Not everyone wants this, of course, but I won't settle for less.)


----------



## jld

Married but Happy said:


> I'm plenty confident, and I make sex fun. I'm also confident that I could find a better partner if my wife wasn't doing the same! (I gave up on my ex, and replaced her with a very creative, confident, fully participative partner. Not everyone wants this, of course, but I won't settle for less.)


Well, for guys who are not interested in divorcing . . . 

Developing more confidence and leadership, and learning not to take a woman's responses personally, might improve their sex lives.


----------



## uhtred

Just different goals I think. To me sex is a natural continuation of the casual intimacy and romance that should be part of any good relationship, and an O is a natural result of good sex. 

To my wife, sex seems to be something people do with the goal of getting an O. I find that less interesting because if all you want is an O, there are much easier ways to go about it. 





jld said:


> Wow, very results-focused lady. And I bet you are more process-oriented.


----------



## Andy1001

uhtred said:


> Actually my wife doesn't sigh, she just says no - with an excuse if one is available, or a "I don't feel like that" if not. With an occasional land-mine of "why would you want to do that", or "weird", or "that's kind of abusive". She fully believes that as long as both people got off, it was good, so the goal is to get there the simplest way possible.


A woman that just lay there? I would see that as a challenge.
Have you guys ever tried edging,it takes a little practice but the result is worth it.


----------



## jld

Andy1001 said:


> A woman that just lay there?* I would see that as a challenge.*
> Have you guys ever tried edging,it takes a little practice but the result is worth it.


This is the attitude to take.


----------



## Fozzy

Next time my wife sees me laying on the couch, not doing yardwork and gets upset about it, I'm going to tell her to just view it as a challenge.


----------



## Married but Happy

jld said:


> Well, for guys who are not interested in divorcing . . .
> 
> Developing more confidence and leadership, and learning not to take a woman's responses personally, might improve their sex lives.


Well, if you're going to put _conditions_ on it, then it's worth a try! :wink2:


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> Next time my wife sees me laying on the couch, not doing yardwork and gets upset about it, I'm going to tell her to just view it as a challenge.


You are funny, Fozzy.

But sadly, this is how the idea of equality can make people so unhappy.


----------



## RideofmyLife

I've been guilty of this in the past. Maybe not full-out starfish, but not initiating or really INTO sex. We had a rough time a couple of years ago, so recently, I've started edging for the sole reason that my husband deserves some hot sex. He works hard and he does so much for our family, I wanted to do this for him. When my pilot light is lit all the time, I'm initiating most the time, wearing him out, and our sex is SO much more fun. He's ecstatic.


----------



## Always Learning

lovelygirl said:


> I hear men say this quite often about their partners. Last night, I was having a conversation with a guy-friend and he said that one of the reasons why he wasn't attracted to his partner was the fact that during sex she'd lay there like a dead fish and do nothing. All work was on him.
> 
> I understand this as a general idea that men are more dominant in bed and most women just wait to be led on but I can't understand what is specific about the "dead fish" type of bedroom behavior.
> I can't imagine a woman laying there and doing nothing...
> 
> Is it what this expression literally mean? Or there's more to it? What does the woman do or doesn't do (specifically) to be classified as a "dead fish" ?


I prefer the term Dead Starfish, In my specific relationship (30 year marriage) it is when she lies on her back arms by her side palms down and legs open. She rarely touches me during intercourse, I mean no hands on me no wrapping her legs around me. Rarely performs oral on me and when she does it very short. If I want her to touch my penis I physically have to place her hands on it. She will ask for doggie but I believe it is because she knows I don't last as long this way. Over the years she has eliminated most positions. The last time we had sex was on a four day all expense paid trip to NYC. we were in one the best hotels on central park, everything was catered to us. We managed all of 20 minutes for sex, after performing oral on her I asked for a BJ. Nope not happening!

She puts no thought into it, doesn't do anything to make it enjoyable for me.

Basically she isn't participating it is an entirely one sided effort. So the term "Dead Fish or Starfish" applies.

And to the poster who linked it to porn, nice try, I don't think it is porn driven to expect participation from your partner.


----------



## Always Learning

jld said:


> My husband would not give up. He would not look to me for leadership, either.
> 
> I think you guys need more confidence. Confident men make sex fun.


Confidence is not the problem, neither is making it fun when the other person doesn't want to be having sex in the first place.


----------



## jld

Always Learning said:


> Confidence is not the problem, neither is making it fun when the other person doesn't want to be having sex in the first place.


I think a lack of confidence, and too much sensitivity, may indeed be at least part of the problem.


----------



## Fozzy

Being confident that you can fly doesn't mean that you won't end up in traction after jumping off a roof. Confidence doesn't always trump reality.


----------



## jld

Fozzy said:


> Being confident that you can fly doesn't mean that you won't end up in traction after jumping off a roof. Confidence doesn't always trump reality.


It has to be real confidence, based on inner security. Cannot be bravado.


----------



## Always Learning

jld said:


> I think a lack of confidence, and too much sensitivity, may indeed be at least part of the problem.


No one who knows me would ever say I had a lack of confidence either inside or outside the bedroom. So exactly how is to much sensitivity overcome. When she flat out says no to performing oral on me should I just stick it in her face?

I really don't think you understand what it is like dealing with a no desire person.


----------



## jld

Always Learning said:


> No one who knows me would ever say I had a lack of confidence either inside or outside the bedroom. So exactly how is to much sensitivity overcome. When she flat out says no to performing oral on me should I just stick it in her face?


No, I mean men need to not take every last female emotion personally, if they want to be happier in their relationships. They should be sensitive to women, but not take offense easily. My opinion, anyway.



> I really don't think you understand what it is like dealing with a no desire person.


Not from a partner, no.


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## Always Learning

jld said:


> No, I mean men need to not take every last female emotion personally, if they want to be happier in their relationships. They should be sensitive to women, but not take offense easily. My opinion, anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Not from a partner, no.


Oh I don't take any of it personally, I know it's her. I have tried everything I can think of to keep her interested, nothing works long term. Her parents marriage failed and she comes from a culture where her children have always been the top priority. I don't think she knows what a good marriage is all about.

It isn't just sex where she is a dead starfish it is also other areas of our marriage. She never plans weekends away, I have to do it against much resistance, there are no date nights, our anniversary is nothing special to her, and she has trouble remembering it. When ever I give her a card for any occasion I always used to write something personal and loving on it, she has never done that. I could go on and on but the bottom line is I stopped those things as well, I got tired of being the only one rowing the boat.


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## jld

Always Learning said:


> Oh I don't take any of it personally, I know it's her. I have tried everything I can think of to keep her interested, nothing works long term. Her parents marriage failed and she comes from a culture where her children have always been the top priority. I don't think she knows what a good marriage is all about.
> 
> It isn't just sex where she is a dead starfish it is also other areas of our marriage. She never plans weekends away, I have to do it against much resistance, there are no date nights, our anniversary is nothing special to her, and she has trouble remembering it. When ever I give her a card for any occasion I always used to write something personal and loving on it, she has never done that. I could go on and on but the bottom line is I stopped those things as well, I got tired of being the only one rowing the boat.


I am not familiar with your situation, AL. But at least to me, you seem kind of aggressive. I could see how that could intimidate a woman. 

Just something to consider.


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## Always Learning

jld said:


> I am not familiar with your situation, AL. But at least to me, you seem kind of aggressive. I could see how that could intimidate a woman.
> 
> Just something to consider.


I don't want to continue this thread going off track but I don't see how you would think I am kind of aggressive?


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## jld

Always Learning said:


> I don't want to continue this thread going off track but I don't see how you would think I am kind of aggressive?


Your tone. It just does not feel kind and trust-inviting.

Sorry, but I want to be honest with you.

Sorry if this is a t/j, OP.


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## _anonymous_

Always Learning said:


> I could go on and on but the bottom line is I stopped those things as well, I got tired of being the only one rowing the boat.


I can relate to this way of thinking. In hindsight though, after stopping certain things in my marriage or just meeting "status quo" requirements wrt special occasions, I have to wonder if my marriage sucks more now than it did before... and I think it sucks more! Giving up on a failing marriage is to surrender to its death spiral. From there out, things only get worse.


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## 269370

Always Learning said:


> No one who knows me would ever say I had a lack of confidence either inside or outside the bedroom. So exactly how is to much sensitivity overcome. When she flat out says no to performing oral on me should I just stick it in her face?


You could try it actually. My wife loves it. 

Ok, I see how it might backfire in your case...
It's hard to know what to recommend here. I am getting absolutely no feel for your wife and if it is all indeed how you are describing and that you tried everything (including talking to her about it - what kind of stuff does she say when you bring it up?) then it is a really unfortunate situation and she may well be either very uncomfortable during sex for some reason or sexually repressed or asexual, or does not love/care about you (could be any or all of those things). Is she nice to you otherwise? Has it always been like this? Sexual trauma history? Any trauma?


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## Faithful Wife

_anonymous_ said:


> I can relate to this way of thinking. In hindsight though, after stopping certain things in my marriage or just meeting "status quo" requirements wrt special occasions, I have to wonder if my marriage sucks more now than it did before... and I think it sucks more! Giving up on a failing marriage is to surrender to its death spiral. *From there out, things only get worse*.


Not always. Sometimes when one or both partners have actually finally dropped the rope and admitted they do not want to continue in the marriage things can get better....in the sense that there is relief, there is now a definitive answer and a plan. Being in limbo and trying to decide what to do for years on end is less comfortable than knowing the plan, in some case.


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## Andy1001

Fozzy said:


> Being confident that you can fly doesn't mean that you won't end up in traction after jumping off a roof. Confidence doesn't always trump reality.


Now you tell me.🤕🤕🤕🤕🤕🤕


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## _anonymous_

Faithful Wife said:


> Not always. Sometimes when one or both partners have actually finally dropped the rope and admitted they do not want to continue in the marriage things can get better....in the sense that there is relief, there is now a definitive answer and a plan. Being in limbo and trying to decide what to do for years on end is less comfortable than knowing the plan, in some case.


I should have qualified my statement. If you stay married and both people have just given up on the marriage, it's miserable and gets more miserable as time goes on until someone asks for a divorce.


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## Feeling lost and lonely

Last time my wife and I had sex was in november and while I gave her oral and after with intercourse she just laid still no touching, moving or talking. All she wanted was her orgasm and no care for anything else. The time before that was in april or may and she had interest then but I think she had an EA at that time so that was why but I have no proof of that.

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## Tillaan

I've slept with someone who is the truest form of the dead fish. It wasn't me it was most definitely her. My STBXW has had plenty of those not into times where she didn't do much if anything but her body still moved. However, one girl I slept with in my early 20's was a dead fish. She was all over the place before we actually started having sex but once we started she was stiff as a board. I really hope she figured things out because it wasn't good at all either time (yeah I did it twice) looking back I know the problem was partially her lack of experience and her insecurities with some scaring from skin grafts all over her back. I was probably her number 3 if memory serves me correctly, one of he two prior to me she didn't remember. I only know this about her because we were actually friends for a while. 

But they are out there and it is not as simple as someone who doesn't take part or reciprocate. Dead fish is a woman who literally doesn't move a muscle. 


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