# Fianc�es tattoo.



## Andy1001

*Fiancées tattoo.*

I am engaged to be married next October,my fiancée is 32 and has a seven year old son from a previous relationship.When we started being exclusive I made a point of saying tattoos were a deal breaker and she laughed and said her fear of needles would rule them out anyway.
So of course you know what's coming.She informed in front of a lot of her friends on Sunday that she is getting a tattoo on her side to support one of her friends who has had a bereavement.I told her we needed to discuss this alone but her friends all butted in and said it's her body and she can do what she wants.I ended up going home on my own(she lives with her parents but stays in my house overnight when we go out).I met her on Monday and she was furious because I showed her up in front of her friends.
I asked her what about our agreement and she said she was supporting her friend.I got really angry and told her if her friends meant more to her than me then there was no point going on.I swear this is the first time I ever lost my temper with her but she is adamant this tattoo is happening,and for me not to be so stupid.I really hate tattoos and there is no way we are getting married if she goes through with it.Am I being unreasonable about this.


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## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

How did no tattoos come up in the first place? That seems like and odd thing to bring up when having the talk about being exclusive.

It's unreasonable for you to have control over what she does with her body, but it's not unreasonable for you to say you don't want to be with someone who wants to have tattoos. She's trying to "have her cake and eat it too." She wants to be with you and she wants to have tattoos. She'll have to pick our else you'll have come to an agreement. 

But really, this type of behavior seems to indicate you're not the right people for each other.


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## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

No.

But there will be others that say yes.

I totally agree with you and hate tattoos. If you think it ends with one you're mistaken. And this pattern if ignoring you and listening to "friends" will continue as well.

If she truly valued you and you've made it clear how the tatto makes you feel long ago, she wouldn't get it. She doesn't respect you. I really think you should consider this a precursor to deeper problems.

Btw, I hate tattoos and am biased.
Even beautiful lingerie models turn me off if I see they have a tatoo. It's just ruining a beautiful woman to me.
So keep that in mind on my advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris Taylor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You set a boundary. She agreed with that boundary and continued not only being a girlfriend but a fiance.

Now not only has she stepped over that boundary but there was no discussion about it. Plus she told you in front of all her friends as if to box you in a corner.

Doesn't matter if it was tattoos (which I personally like and could easily say "yes, you are being stupid") or drinking or separate vacations or contacting old flames. Agreements were made, no discussion about changing the agreement and dropping it on you in front of friends. If this is how she operates, time to call off the wedding.


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## Acoa

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I really hate tattoos and there is no way we are getting married if she goes through with it.Am I being unreasonable about this.


It's not stupid or unreasonable. Early in your relationship you both agreed on something, she is taking an action counter to what you believed she would do. 

It is her body, she can do what she wants with it.

It's also your life, and you can spend it with anyone you want. And if you want that to be with someone who doesn't have a tattoo, then dump her. 

I wouldn't even negotiate with her on it. She is likely to hold off on the tattoo until after the wedding then get it anyway.


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## karole

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You stated a boundary and sounds like she went along with it, so don't feel bad. I don't blame you in the least, I hate tattoos too. Never seen one that looks good, even though the people that have them think that they do.

Just tell your fiance that she is correct, it is her body, but if she chooses to get the tattoo, you are finished. Her decision.


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## Hope1964

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You made your stance clear at the beginning, and she decided to test whether you mean it or not. Good for you for sticking to your guns. Many people would compromise their own values in a case like this. Whether people agree that tattoos are that big a deal or not isn't really important in my opinion. Sure she can do what she wants with her own body, but if she does something that you made it clear you are opposed to, which she has, she's sending the message that she doesn't think your views are important enough to factor into her decision making.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

That's exactly what I am afraid of.By the way she also had a"deal breaker"hers was if I ever made a comment about raising another mans child.I have never and would never say a word about that,I love her son like my own and it is because of him that I am looking for advice rather than just calling off the whole wedding.


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## MrsAldi

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Hi, 
You are turned off by tattoos? 
So are me & my husband. 
They're not for us, maybe we don't have the flare to make them look cool. 

But it's in memory of someone who she lost. 
And in the end, she may just do it regardless of what you think. 

Whereabouts on her body? Maybe you guys could compromise on the area she gets it? Ankle or something like that, so it can be covered. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She didn't lose anybody.Her friends father died and she wants her and my fiancée to get tattoos.The tattoo is a six line verse about the size of a postcard and it will be impossible to miss.


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## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Ridiculous of her. Lots of other ways to do this.

She is disregarding your feelings totally. You were mature enough to ask her to talk about it privately. Instead, she let her friends berate you. Fine, let her have her tatoo and friends. Find a woman that's mature enough to treat her SO with respect and regard to their feelings. 
This one isn't that person. Move on. She's shown you how much she thinks about you And your feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Did the decision for a tattoo come up while drinking was involved?


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## Hope1964

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I know you want to do right by the boy, but at the expense of over a decade of your own life?

It isn't going to end with this tattoo, you know. Even if you somehow get her to NOT get it, the way she is going about telling you about it and arguing tells me that she doesn't respect you at all. What going to be next - her announcing in front of all her friends that she's taken another lover and you can like it or lump it??


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## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

My issue isn't even as much her trying to go against boundaries you guys agreed to, it is that she made the decision not by talking to you first but by announcing it in front of her friends. Maybe she thought that the pressure you would feel by doing it in a public situation would be enough to sway you. Also, she let her friends berate you in front of her 

Serious, why would you want to marry someone who acts like this? Maybe this is a good thing, find this out now and not after you are married. It would appear at face value her respect for you is questionable


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Yes she had been drinking,we were in a bar watching football on tv,but she thought I would just accept this as I normally just let her do what she wants.By the way she is no fool she has a successful business that she built from scratch.I think she regrets saying it to me in front of her friends and she can't be seen to back down.


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## bankshot1993

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

My wife and I are both dead set against tattoos as well so never had this issue but we had a similar one and I agree with everybody else, this is about agreed upon boundaries and respect.

In my case my wife wanted to get her nose pierced. I'm not one for weird piercings, tattoos or any of the other new trendy body modifications that seem to be the latest craze.

My wife told me her plan to get the new piercing and when I expressed my displeasure at it she tried using the same argument about it being her body and she can do with it as she pleases. I reminded her that yes it is her body and her nose but it is me that will be looking at the result of her decision and as it is something that I find very unattractive it would greatly affect how I viewed her.

in the end she understood my point and finally agreed that it would be no different than me going out and getting a big tattoo (which she finds offensive).


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## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, you told her it was a deal breaker. It isn't ridiculous to hold your ground on it. Some like them, some don't. She knew from the start how you feel about them. Personally, I have thought about getting one from time to time, but haven't found anything that would REALLY push me to get one. Even then, I would discuss with my husband, first. Sure, it's my body. But, I also ascribe to the notion of "two become one". I have equal say over his body, and he over mine. 

Technically, you have no say over what she does. However, she knows the consequences of getting a tattoo. It isn't a good idea to continue in a relationship after she decided to go against something you agreed on, without discussing it with you, first... and staying because you love her son is not a good enough reason to marry. 

I suspect you would have been a bit more supportive, had she presented it to you in a different manner, and if it wasn't such a large tattoo. Maybe, had it been a ribbon, or something small, as a remembrance, and if she had said, "I know we agreed on this, but I feel really strongly about this." And explained her reasons.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It's not the tattoo that's the problem it's the fact that you guys discussed something,both agreed and now she is going against what she agreed to with you.
That's fine for something like a tattoo..you probably can get over that...but to me it says something about her character. 
Is this going to happen with every decision you guys make together? With raising kids? Investments? Etc?
You guys need to talk , once you are both calm about what this really means.
Marriage and having kids (if you have them) means you need to be on the same page and always have each other's back. 


Sent from my iPhone


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## jb02157

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I agree that you should reconsider marrying her. She's definitely showing you that her friends mean more to her than you do. If anything, she showed you up in front of her friends. I think tattoos are ugly and trashy. That she has them sends a negative vibe about her. Get out while you can. She's not going to be a good fit for you.


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## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It's really up to you if you want to spend your life trying to retrain her to be respectful. The issue here isn't the tattoo. It's the way she handled the whole thing. It's an indication of her personality. 

Let's say for a moment you had hesitations about her child. Could you even fathom bringing up her dealbreaker in a public place in front of her friends? Probably not. You would likely discuss it with her in private and try to be as sympathetic as possible. 

It would be totally different if she discussed this first with you in private and tried to come up with a workable compromise. I can understand how she might want a tattoo, but she should also want you to be okay with that decision or come up something you both agree to.

Her behavior of how she brought up the tattoo has given you an insight into how she'll try to manipulate you in the future. This won't be a quick, easy fix to change, and likely will never really be fixed. You'll just get better at dealing with her attempts at manipulation. A likely pattern is that if you bring it up now, she'll be on better behavior, but soon after the wedding she'll go back to old ways.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She is normally very good natured but when she drinks too much she gets stubborn.This friend has numerous tattoos,most of them visible,she does not work and probably couldn't get a job anyway,she is very aggressive if she thinks she is being slighted.I have not spoken to my fiancée since Monday and it may be she is waiting for me to back down.We are supposed to be paying some of the wedding expenses on Saturday but I will break off the engagement if she has the tattoo.


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## Adelais

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Everyone is entitled to change their mind about something. Your girlfriend changed her mind about tattoos.

However, I do agree that she is putting having a tattoo over being with you, since the two of you were very clear with each other about tattoos before.

You have a right to not change your mind about tattoos, and break up with her if she follows through with getting one.

There really is nowhere she can put the tattoo that you won't see it. If she puts it on her ankle, it will be seen every time she isn't wearing socks or long pants. If she puts it where it is covered by a shirt or shorts, you will see it every time she is undressed.

Would you be OK with it if she puts it on the bottom of her foot? I doubt she would go for that anyway. She probably will want it to be somewhere she (and others) will see it.

(BTW, like you, I don't like tattoos either, along with facial piercings, and gauges.)


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## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> she regrets saying it to me in front of her friends and she can't be seen to back down.


Sure she can back down. It may be uncomfortable, but it is easy to choose your soon to be spouse over your friends. She chose not to and then threw all the blame on you.


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## Adelais

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We are supposed to be paying some of the wedding expenses on Saturday but I will break off the engagement if she has the tattoo.


You need to break off the engagement before you pay for any of the wedding on Saturday.

If she doesn't have the tattoo on Saturday, and you pay for some of the wedding expenses, she could then turn around and get the tattoo, thinking you are not going to back out of the wedding since you've already paid for some of it.

I'd suggest you not get reengaged until she agrees she will never, ever get a tattoo, since she knows you don't like them. If she wants a tattoo, then she needs to find a guy who likes them.

Plus, IMO it is bizarre that her friend is pressuring her to get a tattoo for her dad. The dad's passing is just an excuse for another tattoo for the friend, since she likes them and already has several, and it is a manipulative way to convince your fiance to get initiated with her first tattoo.


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## imtamnew

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Why would anyone get a tattoo for someone else's bereavement.

Was your fiance very close to the person who passed awar?


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## Herschel

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

This is simple and has nothing to do with hating tattoos. You made a deal, she broke it. What else will she break and not back down regarding.

Honestly, don't even give her a chance to get out of this. Tell her she put you in an unfair situation, that you now have to deal with her breaking a promise to you AND deal with a tattoo, which you don't like. This was her choice and she had a myriad of chances to get out of it. If she is so stubborn that she won't back down because it will make her seem weak, then you will have problems in the future with her being "vulnerable" with you. This is a recipe for failure.


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## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

OK, so I am going to take a different viewpoint here. OP, have you had other difficulties with your fiancee or would you consider this situation as a 1 off? 

Look, if she goes ahead and gets the tattoo I think you have every right to call things off. If however she agrees not to, and overall your relationship has been healthy, I don't believe that should warrant ending things. Everyone makes mistakes. Maybe in this case she pushed things, you held your ground, and you guys can move on. 

* If she still gets tattoo - move on

* If she doesn't get tattoo, but issues like this (disrespect, ignoring boundaries) are constant in your relationship - seriously reconsider things

* If this was a 1 off, she genuinely made a mistake, wait till both of your heads have cleared and talk with her. Make it clear how you feel about boundaries agreed to, that this should have been discussed privately first, and you expect her to have your back (whether she agrees with you or not) when it comes to her friends. There is no reason under these circumstances this can't be used as a positive in your relationship.


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## MarriedDude

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I have nothing against tattoos..have Many myself, so does my wife.

BUT..you made a clear boundary. She is ignoring it. Allow this at your peril.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Try to work out a compromise. Is there a non permanent tattoo that would last, say 3 months, during which your F can honor this man, and still obey your rules? Call tattoo parlors and find out. 

Can you engage her friend as an ally, to help her and your F agree to some other way to honor the man? You can tell GF that if she and your F get a tat, the marriage is off.

Have her put the tattoo near her privates. After a few years when the marriage becomes sexless, you won't have to look at it because IMO you are already headed in that direction or divorce, if you marry.


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## Mr. Nail

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So, am I missing something? 
Is a person who hates needles going to get 6 lines of poetry tattooed onto her body to prove how stubborn she is?
And is another person going to break an engagement to prove that he is even more stubborn?
Sounds like you have a negotiation problem.


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## KJ_Simmons

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Breaking off an engagement b/c of a tattoo, really? You don't own her body brother. Yes, there's the principle of it...but it all comes back to a tattoo, which is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

If anything, I would suggest you ask her to sit on it for a few months, and if she still really wants to get one then, to go ahead and get it. She may just be in an emotional state right now and not thinking clearly and may regret her decision.


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## richie33

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I hate people who hate tattoos.
But you did tell her of your preference early on. Just chalk it up to not being right for each other.


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## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Or... if, as he stated in the first place, it is a deal breaker, then don't compromise on it. I really hate when people try to tell someone to compromise on something that was stated to be a deal breaker. Sorry, I don't care if someone has a tattoo or not, personally, but if it was a deal breaker for me, I would be PISSED OFF if people told me I needed to compromise because THEY don't think it's a big deal! Maybe he is willing to compromise, maybe he isn't. But it isn't for US to decide if something should or should not be a deal breaker for someone else!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Lostinthought61

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



richie33 said:


> I hate people who hate tattoos.
> But you did tell her of your preference early on. Just chalk it up to not being right for each other.



Well i hate people who hate people who hate tattoos, but then again i think hate is such a harsh word.


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## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Mr. Nail said:


> So, am I missing something? \


Yes, this was discussed before they were engaged.



> Sounds like you have a negotiation problem.


No, they had a mutual agreement, negotiations were already closed. No Tattoos and no insulting son's fatherhood.

Just be real, you think this one is ridiculous. If she was here saying he broke the son boundary everyone would be losing their minds if she kept the marriage on.

Yes, I know, but it doesn't matter. If this is his boundary, it is just as important to him as her child issue.


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## richie33

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Xenote said:


> Well i hate people who hate people who hate tattoos, but then again i think hate is such a harsh word.


Well I hate you then....but seriously I have much better things to hate on....like terrorists and racists scum.


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## rzmpf

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Her friends are right, it's her body. It's also your life and your dealbreaker. If the fact that she gets a tattoo is a dealbreaker for you, a dealbreaker that was discussed beforehand, then you are not unreasonable to at least put the M on hold or end the whole relationship. Hell, you don't really need a reason to do that anyway. It's not her or their decision to make.

P.S.
Her whole behaviour stinks. First agreeing to the dealbreaker, then announcing her tattoo publicly with her friends pressuring you, minimizing you and your feelings about something that's not really necessary. If supporting a friend through meassures that you don't like is more important to her than you and your feelings, knowing the possible consequences (and I think she does not really think you were/are serious about it), i guess you know her priorities.


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## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It is her body yes...but the tattoo is not the point.
She showed her character by discussing and then agreeing to something and then breaking that and going against it.
Breaking an engagement over a tattoo..no.
I'm not saying he should break the engagement. But they need to sit down and talk about the future and how this makes him question if he can trust her not to go back on her word on more important things.



Sent from my iPhone


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Her sister has told me that the whole thing stems from a group of my fiancées friends and some employees talking about what their partners opinion on their hairstyles,clothes etc really mattered.My fiancée let slip about my aversion to tattoos ans some of them suggested getting a temporary tattoo and surprise me in bed with it.
However her tattooed friend told her she was a doormat and suggested the two of them get tattoos in memory of her father and to teach me a lesson.This is advice from a woman who has never had a relationship last more than a month.My fiancée just laughed but when she got a few drinks she said it to me and I hit the roof.Now she is unwilling to lose face in front of her employees and friends and has asked her sister to plead with me to let it go.I am expected to look at this tattoo for the rest of my life because she "can't lose face".Her father rung me and said if she gets the tattoo he will pay to have it removed after the wedding.They just don't get it,it's ok for me to look like an idiot but she can't be seen to back down.


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## richie33

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You got all the information you need. She doesn't respect you enough to consider your feelings, it's more important to her to goof on you to her friends. End it, find another suitable partner.


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## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Her sister has told me that the whole thing stems from a group of my fiancées friends and some employees talking about what their partners opinion on their hairstyles,clothes etc really mattered.My fiancée let slip about my aversion to tattoos ans some of them suggested getting a temporary tattoo and surprise me in bed with it.
> However her tattooed friend told her she was a doormat and suggested the two of them get tattoos in memory of her father and to teach me a lesson.This is advice from a woman who has never had a relationship last more than a month.My fiancée just laughed but when she got a few drinks she said it to me and I hit the roof.Now she is unwilling to lose face in front of her employees and friends and has asked her sister to plead with me to let it go.I am expected to look at this tattoo for the rest of my life because she "can't lose face".Her father rung me and said if she gets the tattoo he will pay to have it removed after the wedding.They just don't get it,it's ok for me to look like an idiot but she can't be seen to back down.


Sounds like she needs to decide between you or the toxic friend If you dont want to call off the engagement perhaps you could postpone the wedding...she sounds like she needs to grow the [email protected]#$ up IMO....but this is a red flag...


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## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She seems incredibly disrespectful.
A doormat?
How old is she that she can't have her own opinions And seems so easily swayed.



Sent from my iPhone


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## Mr. Nail

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Just be real, you think this one is ridiculous.


You are right I do think this one is ridiculous. And I'm sorry to have broken my anti Sarcasm vow.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Thank you for the advice.


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## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

That's another thing she has a 7 yo son..she needs to grow up before he does dont you think?


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## kristin2349

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Anyone who would get a tattoo to "teach you a lesson" is less than smart and too immature to get married. She actually deserves to live with her dumb choice. Her father doesn't sound much brighter TBH, he'd rather pay for her to have it removed than tell her she is being a stubborn child.


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## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



kristin2349 said:


> Anyone who would get a tattoo to "teach you a lesson" is less than smart and too immature to get married. She actually deserves to live with her dumb choice. Her father doesn't sound much brighter TBH, he'd rather pay for her to have it removed than tell her she is being a stubborn child.


I guess it runs in the family? >


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## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> That's another thing she has a 7 yo son..she needs to grow up before he does dont you think?




And this is my point. 
The two of you agree upon how to discipline the son when you are married . He does something and all of a sudden she turns around and says nope. Changed my mind. I've decided to do this now. To [email protected]&& with your opinion. Worse she says he's my son so I make the rules. 
I don't know.
I would rethink and regroup. 


Sent from my iPhone


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## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> And this is my point.
> The two of you agree upon how to discipline the son when you are married . He does something and all of a sudden she turns around and says nope. Changed my mind. I've decided to do this now. To [email protected]&& with your opinion. Worse she says he's my son so I make the rules.
> I don't know.
> I would rethink and regroup.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


She sounds too immature to be a wife let alone a mother..and her BFF sounds like a complete [email protected]


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## Mr. Nail

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So this was a set up, but now it is more.

There is something I was writing that still needs to be said but in a new context.

In her current life as a single mother she needs a network of support. Her coworkers and he tattooed friend are important parts of that network. They feel a need to stand together. What they don't get, is that Andy is not the enemy. The only reason your Andy's fiance to get a tattoo is to show solidarity with the friends, against Andy. The friends are perfectly willing to throw Andy under the Bus to preserve their group. 

She is using her old survival patterns in a situation that doesn't fit. If she doesn't stop and think, she will end up in the same old situation. Single mom with support group.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



KJ_Simmons said:


> Breaking off an engagement b/c of a tattoo, really? You don't own her body brother. Yes, there's the principle of it...but it all comes back to a tattoo, which is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
> 
> If anything, I would suggest you ask her to sit on it for a few months, and if she still really wants to get one then, to go ahead and get it. She may just be in an emotional state right now and not thinking clearly and may regret her decision.


She doesn't really want the tattoo but she refuses to back down in front of her employees and friends


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## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Mr. Nail said:


> So this was a set up, but now it is more.
> 
> 
> 
> There is something I was writing that still needs to be said but in a new context.
> 
> 
> 
> In her current life as a single mother she needs a network of support. Her coworkers and he tattooed friend are important parts of that network. They feel a need to stand together. What they don't get, is that Andy is not the enemy. The only reason your Andy's fiance to get a tattoo is to show solidarity with the friends, against Andy. The friends are perfectly willing to throw Andy under the Bus to preserve their group.
> 
> 
> 
> She is using her old survival patterns in a situation that doesn't fit. If she doesn't stop and think, she will end up in the same old situation. Single mom with support group.




Yes. 
Exactly.


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## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She doesn't really want the tattoo but she refuses to back down in front of her employees and friends


Well, here you go, here is the big test, and as I said before, maybe it is good to get this test out of the way now vs after you are married. You two have agreed on boundaries, she wants to break those boundaries. If she truly values you and your eventual marriage, she will not do something to spite you, and especially not do something because she doesn't want to look bad in front of her friends. This could literally be the dumbest thing I have heard in a while, wanting to make a lifetime commitment to marry your supposed love, but caring more about what everyone else around you thinks


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## Cletus

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So I don't necessarily disagree with much of the advice you've received so far, but...

Someone who won't marry another person because of a tattoo seems extraordinarily rigid to me. As the saying goes, pick the hill you want to die on. Is this it? I don't think it's unreasonable to evaluate our prejudices from time to time to evaluate their real importance. 

I remember telling my wife at 22 to take me out in the back yard and shoot me if I ever drove a mini-van. Well, after two kids, you know the drill. And (damn it) it was a good vehicle.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Festivus said:


> So I don't necessarily disagree with much of the advice you've received so far, but...
> 
> Someone who won't marry another person because of a tattoo seems extraordinarily rigid to me. As the saying goes, pick the hill you want to die on. Is this it? I don't think it's unreasonable to evaluate our prejudices from time to time to evaluate their real importance.
> 
> I remember telling my wife at 22 to take me out in the back yard and shoot me if I ever drove a mini-van. Well, after two kids, you know the drill. And (damn it) it was a good vehicle.


That is good advice,but at this stage I just feel like calling the whole thing off.Im starting to remember all the things I backed down on and I think I've been a fool


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



EllisRedding said:


> Well, here you go, here is the big test, and as I said before, maybe it is good to get this test out of the way now vs after you are married. You two have agreed on boundaries, she wants to break those boundaries. If she truly values you and your eventual marriage, she will not do something to spite you, and especially not do something because she doesn't want to look bad in front of her friends. This could literally be the dumbest thing I have heard in a while, wanting to make a lifetime commitment to marry your supposed love, but caring more about what everyone else around you thinks


Exactly...she gives in to peer pressure like a teenager...she has a lot of growing up to do...I dont say break it off but postponingthe wedding seems like a good start to resolving it...

Its not about the tattoo its about her willfully breaking an agreed upon boundary becuase her friends laughed at her...will she do the same with her vows if her friends pressure her to break those?


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think she regrets saying it to me in front of her friends and she can't be seen to back down.


Then YOU cannot be seen....coming back....up or down.

Let her know that you are still upset about this.

If you hold your ground...as does an Oak Tree in a Tempest, her love will allow her to bend.

I may be wrong....I do not think so.

Plant your flag only in worthy ground.


----------



## NoChoice

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

OP,
I have not read all of the responses so forgive any redundancy but this is not about tattoos at all. This is a personality trait that you must be willing to accept if you marry her. She is choosing supporting her friend over her future H. She is showing no regard for the value of her word and her honor. She is setting precedent regarding how important it is to her to be perceived by her friends as the most powerful in the relationship and in life in general I suspect. She is showing a significant lack of concern for your wishes.

Consider theses traits carefully because they will intensify dramatically after marriage. Marry her at your own peril unless you have enjoyed your life as of late.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That is good advice,but at this stage I just feel like calling the whole thing off.*Im starting to remember all the things I backed down on and I think I've been a fool*


I won't call you a fool, don't worry. But, this is telling. I think she believes you will back down on this, as you did on other things. Now, you can if you want to, but if you do, it will be continuing the precedent you already set... she wants something, you give in. You say no, she pushes, you give in. Is this how you want your marriage to work?


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Her sister has told me that the whole thing stems from a group of my fiancées friends and some employees talking about what their partners opinion on their hairstyles,clothes etc really mattered.My fiancée let slip about my aversion to tattoos ans some of them suggested getting a temporary tattoo and surprise me in bed with it.
> However her tattooed friend told her she was a doormat and suggested the two of them get tattoos in memory of her father and to teach me a lesson.This is advice from a woman who has never had a relationship last more than a month.My fiancée just laughed but when she got a few drinks she said it to me and I hit the roof.Now she is unwilling to lose face in front of her employees and friends and has asked her sister to plead with me to let it go.I am expected to look at this tattoo for the rest of my life because she "can't lose face".Her father rung me and said if she gets the tattoo he will pay to have it removed after the wedding.They just don't get it,it's ok for me to look like an idiot but she can't be seen to back down.


Well, this backstory changes my opinion. Cancel the wedding and move on. The "teach me a lesson" would be a deal-breaker, especially BEFORE the wedding when both partners are expected to be at their absolute best.


----------



## happy as a clam

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

What are "all the other things that you backed down on" that made you now feel like a fool?

This is starting to reveal a pervasive pattern in her personality.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Personal

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If it is actually a deal breaker dump her immediately, otherwise stop pontificating pointlessly.


----------



## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Brother, you should break this engagement and walk away while you still can. She has no respect for you. She agreed that she would never do this thing, but with a little pressure from her friends she is going to teach you a lesson and do it. And she is using the pressure of her friends, sister, and father to make you buckle to her need to look big in front of her friends. So her friends are her priority here, not you! Think about that.

At this point it doesn't even matter if she begrudgingly agrees not to get the tattoo, the damage has been done and her true colors are clear to see. You are not the first priority in her life, hell your second or third behind her friends and support group. Go find a girl that will put you first, and honor her vows and promises to you.


----------



## happy2gether

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

ok, you hate tattoos so you demand she not get one. she wants one and you say the wedding is off if she does. That attitude will never lead to a successful marriage, you two have to learn to compromise with each other in a way that no one wins nor loses. 

It is her body, her choice. Just as it is your choice to look at it or not. What you must decide is if your aversion to tats is more meaningful to you than being with her and her child.


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## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



happy2gether said:


> ok, you hate tattoos so you demand she not get one. she wants one and you say the wedding is off if she does. That attitude will never lead to a successful marriage, you two have to learn to compromise with each other in a way that no one wins nor loses.
> 
> It is her body, her choice. Just as it is your choice to look at it or not. What you must decide is if your aversion to tats is more meaningful to you than being with her and her child.


I guess you missed the part where they AGREED on this? That she KNEW all along how he feels about them? It absolutely is her body and her choice to make. However that is not the issue. They AGREED on this, and NOW she is saying this because her friends got her to agree to it. He absolutely has every right to get pissed off that she cares so little about their relationship that saving face with her FRIENDS is more important than honoring the AGREEMENT she had with Andy. It isn't about the tattoo, itself. It's about her blatant disregard for him.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



happy2gether said:


> ok, you hate tattoos so you demand she not get one. she wants one and you say the wedding is off if she does. That attitude will never lead to a successful marriage, you two have to learn to compromise with each other in a way that no one wins nor loses.
> 
> It is her body, her choice. Just as it is your choice to look at it or not. What you must decide is if your aversion to tats is more meaningful to you than being with her and her child.


Just my opinion, but I believe the disappointment is not about the tatoo, it's about the disrespect, lack of empathy, and immature attitude she has shown her fiancé. The tatoo of some kind of written nonsense about a friend's dad??? On HER body forever? That's just highly immature. Ridiculing him and allowing her friends to gang up on him about something he asked to speak about in private? What kind of company dies she keep? That also speaks volumes about her.

Her friends are low character people, and so is she.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerging Buddhist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If you really think this is about the tattoo... pre-marital counseling is recommended before any further decisions.

Put the work in up front so the seeds of resentment are weeded giving the other positives a chance to flourish.

The wrong friends will have to fall away though or you can count on this tumultuous pattern repeating, the company one keeps does tell. That her friend would set her up for such failure is not trivial.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Looks like @Evinrude58 and I are on the same track about the company one keeps... they will forever be destructive while they remain acquaintances.

Her ability to be influenced is another concern...


----------



## happy2gether

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

so you are saying that no one is ever allowed to change their mind? I agree that since they had discussed it previously she should have told him that she was thinking about getting one, but regardless he does not own her and cannot control her. just as she should not do things that she knows will disgust him. 


to me this small issue has shown early on that they are not ready for marriage. if they do work thru this we will see something in a few months about how she left him for being controlling, or she always does what she wants regardless of what he says.


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## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@happy2gether - she didn't simply change her mind - she is giving in to peer pressure from a toxic friend who said she was a doormat for agreeing to this particular boundary - to give in to peer pressure from toxic friends on a boundary your fiance said was a deal breaker and YOU agreed to abide by is a red flag - SHE is not ready for marriage...whats scary is that she is already a parent...


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



happy2gether said:


> to me this small issue has shown early on that they are not ready for marriage. if they do work thru this we will see something in a few months about how she left him for being controlling, or she always does what she wants regardless of what he says.


Perhaps, but I cannot see respect being fickle, it must be loyal or it simply isn't present.


----------



## tripod

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



happy2gether said:


> ok, you hate tattoos so you demand she not get one. she wants one and you say the wedding is off if she does. That attitude will never lead to a successful marriage, you two have to learn to compromise with each other in a way that no one wins nor loses.
> 
> It is her body, her choice. Just as it is your choice to look at it or not. What you must decide is if your aversion to tats is more meaningful to you than being with her and her child.


Wrong read on the op's post. They were discussing (that's good) deal breakers before getting married. She had hers and he agreed. He had his and she agreed. The she breaks the deal and in front of friends, belittles him. 

He may not control her but he can control what he'll put up with. And live with...like being disrespected and manipulated. As for not looking at the tat. He will see it every day for the rest of the marriage as well as the experience of being shoved aside and into a corner. 

Run from this train wreck OP.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



happy2gether said:


> *so you are saying that no one is ever allowed to change their mind?* I agree that since they had discussed it previously she should have told him that she was thinking about getting one, but regardless he does not own her and cannot control her. just as she should not do things that she knows will disgust him.
> 
> 
> to me this small issue has shown early on that they are not ready for marriage. if they do work thru this we will see something in a few months about how she left him for being controlling, or she always does what she wants regardless of what he says.


Absolutely not! Of course anyone is free to change his or her mind. But that isn't what's going on here. The problem is that they agreed on this. Rather than discussing with Andy that she feels strongly about getting this tattoo, and giving her reasons, she gave into the peer pressure of her toxic friends. This isn't even the first time this has happened, either (per one of Andy's replies in this thread). So, there is a precedent. So... when does he say, "That's enough"? When does he get to decide that a deal breaker is, indeed, a deal breaker?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> Absolutely not! Of course anyone is free to change his or her mind. But that isn't what's going on here. The problem is that they agreed on this. Rather than discussing with Andy that she feels strongly about getting this tattoo, and giving her reasons, she gave into the peer pressure of her toxic friends. This isn't even the first time this has happened, either (per one of Andy's replies in this thread). So, there is a precedent. So... when does he say, "That's enough"? When does he get to decide that a deal breaker is, indeed, a deal breaker?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Agreed....the situation sounds toxic as is and needs to change..there can be no wedding as things stand now...because it will only get worse once the wedding rings are on


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## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Hello Andy1001

I too have been a man who won't have a "serious" relationship with a women with tattoos. It was a rulebreaker for me as well. I can admire the art and such when its done well, but not the future mother of my future children. Almost 6 years ago, I meet my wife and she came with tattoos on her arms and legs - not covered to look like sleaves and pants. When we got serious, I had to ignore them. But for the most part - her future tattoo days are over, except for one on the leg to complete "the set". Many of her friends have tats, many of my friends have tats, as do some of my favorite actors, musicians, etc. So since we've been together, had a child and going through ups and major downs, I do not really think anything of her tats usually. Not even when we're having sex. At most, when she's wearing a nice dress and tats kind of detract from the overall look.

I'm from the infidelity side of TAM, but your post showed up on the side. You have gotten some good advice from some of the users here (we may not ALL agree on things, doesn't mean respect is not given) Truthseeker1 & NoChoice are at least two posters I've seen given great advice to others, as well as to me. I tell you this for a reason.

She had cheated on me and broke up our family with a youngster with lots of tattoos. Tats didn't make him a jerk, but its part of his appeal. Anyways, she wanted to know if we could work things out almost two months ago. I had be learning to cope and how to deal with my "controlling" co-dependency behaviors. (Whatever I did, was no excuse for her actions, thou). But what I was learning about myself was being controlling towards my wife in unhealthy ways - this was BEFORE she called me about "working things out".

It was a Wed night when we spent 5 hours talking. She asked me for a ride to get tattoos that Friday as it was originally supposed to be her "affair partner". I said yes and she canceled him out the next day.
Come Friday morning, we were chatting over the phone and she asks "would you get a tattoo?". I laugh, and quickly response "I had already decided to get one very early that morning anyway" (think 3am).

Its 9pm that Friday night date, we're outside the tat shop talking on a bench as we wait. I told her it was wrong for me to be imposing my rules on her that way after all these years. She talked and showed me many other tattoos she was planning on getting since we "broke up" since she was free of me. I made comments on what I thought was good, even made suggestions of using one pattern with the color of another, which we both agreed would look even better. She brings up getting a chest tat which would cover half of her breasts which I was upfront "NOT GOOD WITH". We talked about it, compromised that made us both happy. Her neck and frontal body will be clear. She got hers, then I got my very first tat - that matched hers by style and location. She got her 2nd one that night with artwork we both did years before. And I said "I'll get a second one too". It was art I choose which meant something to me, spur of the moment. First one hurt, because of the location. We were both laughing as I got my first tattoos in my 46 years of life. We were not drinking or drugs, just so you know.

I tell you this because people change. I wouldn't have dated a woman with a tat in my 20s. In my 30s, didn't matter with NSA sex.

With that said, I support your stance that SHE respects the agreement the both of your HAD when you first dated. She is doing it out of peer pressure and the fact you had to back down on other things seems very disrespectful and immature to you as her future life partner.

Her FRIEND should support HER agreement she made with you. Why the hell should she ask your fiancée to put on a tattoo about her dad? Her friend is selfish. Your fiancée can lose face with you or her employees and friends. Her simple out is “well guys, I was drunk and forgot that Andy and I agreed to being tat free”.
Seems like you’ll always be an enemy to her friend – these things happen.

So let her get that foolish tat, and every time she looks at it, she’ll remember what it costs her.

Seems there are other problems than just this one thing. Seems like you already decided to place on hold or cancel the wedding. You need to hold her to her word. This is about respecting each other.


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If you think she's breaking agreements now, wait until you get married and she knows if you divorce that she'll get half your retirement, child support for any kids you have together, alimony, half the equity in everything you own, etc. 
If her friends are any reflection of her, and I believe they ARE, then you really need to reconsider. Anybody that would jump on a friends fiancé and tell him it's her body and she can do what she wants-- they're spoiled, immature, irresponsible, loud mouthed, self- centered nitwits. They have no idea how a relationship is about communicating and sticking to agreements and solving problems and disagreements in private. They likely don't have stable relationships themselves and never have.
And these are the exact kinds of friends that contribute to strife in other people's relationships. This is the problem you're seeing, and this is the kind of problem that will get worse.

I'll bet if you wanted to change something about your appearance or do something contrary to an important agreement that she stressed was important to HER, these same "friends" would be at your throat, telling you what a jerk you were. 
Not good signs for the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Evinrude58 said:


> If her friends are any reflection of her, and I believe they ARE, then you really need to reconsider. Anybody that would jump on a friends fiancé and tell him it's her body and she can do what she wants-- they're spoiled, immature, irresponsible, loud mouthed, self- centered nitwits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This! A persons friends are a reflection of them - if they surround themselves with losers that should give a future partner pause...for example if you know your partner is palling around with cheaters wouldn't that give you some hesitation to be in a relationship with them?

Like I've said earlier dont break up necessarily but you do need to PAUSE and rethink the whole thing...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Oh good lord, the yarn spinning is hilarious. He isn't imposing his rules, will or anything on this woman. He doesn't like Tattoos. No, it doesn't matter if he doesn't own her body, if you feel he will change blah blah blah blah blah. SHE CHOSE TO STAY after the boundary, rule or whatever word you choose to employ to minimize his feelings was set and she agreed.

Imposing his rules on her? LOL no. No offense to OP, but how ridiculous is she if she stayed with a man KNOWING he wouldn't marry her over a tattoo?


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh good lord, the yarn spinning is hilarious. He isn't imposing his rules, will or anything on this woman. He doesn't like Tattoos. No, it doesn't matter if he doesn't own her body, if you feel he will change blah blah blah blah blah. SHE CHOSE TO STAY after the boundary, rule or whatever word you choose to employ to minimize his feelings was set and she agreed.
> 
> Imposing his rules on her? LOL no. No offense to OP, but how ridiculous is she if she stayed with a man KNOWING he wouldn't marry her over a tattoo?


Didnt she say if he ever brought up raising another mans child that was a deal breaker for her? Isnt that controlling what he says???? I'm sure she has her own set of "rules"..

Thats another thing..your fiance should be GRATEFUL that another man is stepping up to help raise her kid....btw where is the father of her child? does he pay support? see the kid?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> Didnt she say if he ever brought up raising another mans child that was a deal breaker for her? Isnt that controlling what he says???? I'm sure she has her own set of "rules"..
> 
> Thats another thing..your fiance should be GRATEFUL that another man is stepping up to help raise her kid....btw where is the father of her child? does he pay support? see the kid?


The kids father has never seen him,he did a runner while she was pregnant.He worked with her as a gym instructor or whatever you would call it.Im beginning to think some of her friends have realised that they pushed me too far,two of them have apologised by email and one of them wants to meet me at lunchtime.But I am grateful to all the people on this platform who have given me advice either good or bad,it was great to finally tell my side of the story without being screamed at by some idiot girlfriends of my (for now)fiancée.


----------



## Sparta

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

OP keep us updated all the way whatever you decide... I'm Certainly pulling for you buddy...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NoChoice

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

OP,
One final thought that I would have you consider. Marriage vows are nothing more than a boundary or rule to follow and can be just as easily broken. It is, after all, her body and she is free to change her mind about her vows and give it to whomever she likes, whenever she likes. This mindset has no place in a committed, mature relationship.

You should seek out a life partner that would rather lose every "friend" she has rather than to hurt you. This is what dating is for, to weed out incompatibility issues before marriage. It would be foolhardy to ignore them.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Also, for someone who "never wanted" a tattoo and "doesn't want the tattoo" she is now committed to having. That seems rather STUPID. I mean, its a good prank to pull - but that is not what happened.

BTW, friends like that, are willing to cover a cheater, or cheat themselves. "Life is short, have an Affair!" website and some mags make it seem like its a "hip thing" to do or some nonsense. Reality is, for the betrayed person, its worse than rape.

Your "fiancee" and her girlfriend can get matching tats and marry each other. 

Sorry if that seems "mean", but that is what runs through my mind if that happened to me.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



happy as a clam said:


> What are "all the other things that you backed down on" that made you now feel like a fool?
> 
> This is starting to reveal a pervasive pattern in her personality.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was buying a new car and it was an estate(station wagon) model but she insisted on me getting a sporty model instead.A couple of months later she said I was crazy to buy it.She asked me once did I think a buzz cut would suit her and I said no,she got one anyway and even though I thought it looked great she cried her eyes out and told her friends that I convinced her to get it and like a fool I went along with it.


----------



## imtamnew

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I was buying a new car and it was an estate(station wagon) model but she insisted on me getting a sporty model instead.A couple of months later she said I was crazy to buy it.She asked me once did I think a buzz cut would suit her and I said no,she got one anyway and even though I thought it looked great she cried her eyes out and told her friends that I convinced her to get it and like a fool I went along with it.


Is this how you plan to spend your life?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



imtamnew said:


> Is this how you plan to spend your life?


I am meeting her friend at lunchtime but I know my fiancée is going to show up.I am 90% certain that I am breaking up with her.It is only reading back on these posts and remembering numerous other examples of her egomania that I realise I come across as a right wimp and need to make drastic changes to my life.I am at the very least postponing the wedding and have already contacted the hotel where the reception was being held.I will lose the deposit I have paid but it's cheaper than a divorce.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I was buying a new car and it was an estate(station wagon) model but she insisted on me getting a sporty model instead.A couple of months later she said I was crazy to buy it.She asked me once did I think a buzz cut would suit her and I said no,she got one anyway and even though I thought it looked great she cried her eyes out and told her friends that I convinced her to get it and like a fool I went along with it.




This shows what the next twenty thirty years are going to be.
You want someone who will support you, champion for you, have your back and respect your beliefs and opinions.

I do wish you luck and keep us updated.


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## browneyes74

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

As someone who was married to someone like this.. It doesn't get better. It gets worse. It's very nice for them to have someone to throw to the wolves every time something goes wrong.. And it sounds like she will. Her family, who is already getting involved, will turn on you should you ever stand up for yourself.. It was bad. I was blamed for fights my ex had with members of his family, AND I WASN'T EVEN THERE. That's how bad it got.. 

I would think long and hard about it.. And honestly, it's not about the tattoo.. I just got my first tattoo at almost 42.. I was not pro tattoo either.. But mine is personally meaningful, and even covered by a bathing suit, if I so desire... I can understand your aversion. My father absolutely HATES them.. 

I'm more concerned about the "teaching a lesson" as well.. She should have had your back in that situation. And did not.. And blaming you for a bad haircut? That's just insane...


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am meeting her friend at lunchtime but I know my fiancée is going to show up.I am 90% certain that I am breaking up with her.It is only reading back on these posts and remembering *numerous other examples of her egomania *that I realise I come across as a right wimp and need to make drastic changes to my life.I am at the very least postponing the wedding and have already contacted the hotel where the reception was being held.I will lose the deposit I have paid but it's cheaper than a divorce.


To many of us the thought of breaking off the marriage over a tattoo seems very odd, despite the negotiated agreement. But your mention of "numerous other examples" add sufficient backstory to support your decision.

Consider IC as to why you pick women that make you into a wimp. 

BTW, I feel sorry for the little boy.


----------



## tripod

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Evinrude58 said:


> If you think she's breaking agreements now, wait until you get married and she knows if you divorce that she'll get half your retirement, child support for any kids you have together, alimony, half the equity in everything you own, etc.
> If her friends are any reflection of her, and I believe they ARE, then you really need to reconsider. Anybody that would jump on a friends fiancé and tell him it's her body and she can do what she wants-- they're spoiled, immature, irresponsible, loud mouthed, self- centered nitwits. They have no idea how a relationship is about communicating and sticking to agreements and solving problems and disagreements in private. They likely don't have stable relationships themselves and never have.
> And these are the exact kinds of friends that contribute to strife in other people's relationships. This is the problem you're seeing, and this is the kind of problem that will get worse.
> 
> I'll bet if you wanted to change something about your appearance or do something contrary to an important agreement that she stressed was important to HER, these same "friends" would be at your throat, telling you what a jerk you were.
> Not good signs for the future.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This! OP....when a person shows you who they are, believe them.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001 - good luck at lunch today!

This whole thing is bizarre. As you said, she doesn't even really want the tattoo, yet she is willing to jeopardize your relationship to get something she doesn't want, honoring someone who maybe meant very little to her (?), all to make the crowd happy.

Add in her Dad's response, which has to lead you to believe that every time you and your fiancee have a disagreement Daddy is going to get involved to try and fix things.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

This is the ultimate of sh*t tests.

Do not fail!

She also doesn't sound like marriage material.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am meeting her friend at lunchtime but I know my fiancée is going to show up.I am 90% certain that I am breaking up with her.It is only reading back on these posts and remembering numerous other examples of her egomania that I realise I come across as a right wimp and need to make drastic changes to my life.I am at the very least postponing the wedding and have already contacted the hotel where the reception was being held.I will lose the deposit I have paid but it's cheaper than a divorce.


Good luck - I'd suggest starting with an IC and a gym membership and work from there. You dont need to settle for this bullsh!t...


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Tell her that you're going to get a tattoo memorializing your decision to raise another man's child.

Be ready to take pictures. The look on her face should be priceless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The kids father has never seen him,he did a runner while she was pregnant.He worked with her as a gym instructor or whatever you would call it.


She should have been grateful you were willing to take this on - many young men would run for the hills..and I dont blame them.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Both of my sisters are on their second marriages. Both had kids from the first marriages. One was ready (both times), the other was not (both times). I still maintain that I truly do not think she was ready to marry either time, though she will celebrate her second anniversary in a couple months. Both of the new husbands willingly, and even enthusiastically, took on the position of step-dad. 

So what's my point? Yes, Andy's fiancée has done a lot that has been detrimental to their relationship. However, I have a huge problem with anyone saying she should be grateful that he was willing to take on her and her son. The child should not be a pawn, and that's what such comments reduce him to. Andy has stated that he loves the boy, and would never make a comment about raising another man's child. I don't think it's fair to him, nor to the child, to make comments to that effect. How about we stick to the relevant issues... her disrespect... and leave the child out of the discussion.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am meeting her friend at lunchtime but I know my fiancée is going to show up.I am 90% certain that I am breaking up with her.It is only reading back on these posts and remembering numerous other examples of her egomania that I realise I come across as a right wimp and need to make drastic changes to my life.I am at the very least postponing the wedding and have already contacted the hotel where the reception was being held.I will lose the deposit I have paid but it's cheaper than a divorce.


At this point, based on all you have told, skip the GF meeting. The tattoo fight is a just a symptom of your failing relationship. 

You and fiancee needs to sit down in a non public place and discuss your future together, or lack thereof.


----------



## TAM2013

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Been there, OP. It sounds like she's one of those girls who's personality is an amalgamation of whatever toxic 'friends' opinions she's been misguided by lately. A tattoo for a friends Dad? WTF?

She's got to be well into her 20's. She won't grow up any time soon. I'd bail regardless.


----------



## Acoa

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I was buying a new car and it was an estate(station wagon) model but she insisted on me getting a sporty model instead.A couple of months later she said I was crazy to buy it.She asked me once did I think a buzz cut would suit her and I said no,she got one anyway and even though I thought it looked great she cried her eyes out and told her friends that I convinced her to get it and like a fool I went along with it.


Holy gaslighting batman. 

Run Andy, run. This woman is manipulative and will twist your brain and ruin your life. Pull your balls back out of her purse, and move on.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> Both of my sisters are on their second marriages. Both had kids from the first marriages. One was ready (both times), the other was not (both times). I still maintain that I truly do not think she was ready to marry either time, though she will celebrate her second anniversary in a couple months. Both of the new husbands willingly, and even enthusiastically, took on the position of step-dad.
> 
> So what's my point? Yes, Andy's fiancée has done a lot that has been detrimental to their relationship. However, I have a huge problem with anyone saying she should be grateful that he was willing to take on her and her son. The child should not be a pawn, and that's what such comments reduce him to. Andy has stated that he loves the boy, and would never make a comment about raising another man's child. I don't think it's fair to him, nor to the child, to make comments to that effect. How about we stick to the relevant issues... her disrespect... and leave the child out of the discussion.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk



Totally agreed.
The child is going to be the most hurt out of everyone over this.
He doesn't need to dragged through the halls of TAM.


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It is a HUGE decision to raise another person's child and gender need not apply. It is a HUGE responsibility to enter a child's life, become a step or adoptive parent and treat the child as your own. I may have missed it, but I have no clue why you are saying "her." I may have missed the post, but the ones I see are specifically addressing another man's child not her.. Nope, doesn't matter if the missing parent is or is not in the picture, it is still a huge responsibility and decision to make. I was and I am GRATEFUL my wife was willing to help raise her step daughter before we were married. I hope to GOD she thought long and hard before entering the relationship with me. Nope, it doesn't make the child a pawn in any way. No one is being dragged through the halls of TAM. 

Man this tattoo has people making weird analogies and writing fanciful stories.

It is a relevant issue as he can now see the level of repeated disrespect. She put her friends, pride and a tattoo over their own relationship and that of the child. Yes, it is highly relevant, people are putting it into perspective.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> Both of my sisters are on their second marriages. Both had kids from the first marriages. One was ready (both times), the other was not (both times). I still maintain that I truly do not think she was ready to marry either time, though she will celebrate her second anniversary in a couple months. Both of the new husbands willingly, and even enthusiastically, took on the position of step-dad.
> 
> So what's my point? Yes, Andy's fiancée has done a lot that has been detrimental to their relationship. However, I have a huge problem with anyone saying she should be grateful that he was willing to take on her and her son. The child should not be a pawn, and that's what such comments reduce him to. Andy has stated that he loves the boy, and would never make a comment about raising another man's child. I don't think it's fair to him, nor to the child, to make comments to that effect. How about we stick to the relevant issues... her disrespect... and leave the child out of the discussion.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I stand by my comment she should be grateful - many young men are not mature enough or many dont have the desire to take on such a huge responsibility. Given that she found a good guy who loves her boy and is willing to be a good stepdad she should be grateful. I dont see that as being disrespectful as much as appreciating what you have.


----------



## Cletus

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



happy as a clam said:


> What are "all the other things that you backed down on" that made you now feel like a fool?
> 
> This is starting to reveal a pervasive pattern in her personality.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or his, depending.

Someone who frequently stomps his feet, crosses his arms, and says "you can't do that" is inviting just such a reaction. I don't yet know which scenario we're talking about here. Just put me on record as saying this sounds like only one side of a very interesting discussion.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Welcome to TAM, where very few stories aren't one sided. 

If the tattoo was replaced with abuse, stealing, neglect, drugs or other alleged higher priority boundary crossings, the tone would be completely different. Yet, this is usually how it goes. If it is divisive enough and unbalanced the OP tends to slowly be demonized. I mean NOW, he might be a foot stomping arm crossing "no you can't" person. Ignoring the two incidents he has related.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Welcome to TAM, where very few stories aren't one sided.
> 
> If the tattoo was replaced with abuse, stealing, neglect, drugs or other alleged higher priority boundary crossings, the tone would be completely different. Yet, this is usually how it goes. If it is divisive enough and unbalanced the OP tends to slowly be demonized. I mean NOW, he might be a foot stomping arm crossing "no you can't" person. Ignoring the two incidents he has related.


Agreed. He might be but the OP didnt stomp his feet or hold his breath yet. She agreed to a boundary and then summarily decided to break that boundary. If anything she is behaving in a stomp my feet manner...his lunch today should be interesting..not sure how much he will get to eat.. and her friends getting involved is another warning sign..if the fiance was a grownup she'd be meeting him for lunch not sending her friend..it shows you this group loves drama with their c0cktails..


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TAM2013 said:


> Been there, OP. It sounds like she's one of those girls who's personality is an amalgamation of whatever toxic 'friends' opinions she's been misguided by lately. *A tattoo for a friends Dad? WTF?*
> 
> She's got to be well into her 20's. She won't grow up any time soon. I'd bail regardless.


For reals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> However, I have a huge problem with anyone saying she should be grateful that he was willing to take on her and her son. The child should not be a pawn, and that's what such comments reduce him to. Andy has stated that he loves the boy, and would never make a comment about raising another man's child. I don't think it's fair to him, nor to the child, to make comments to that effect. How about we stick to the relevant issues... her disrespect... and leave the child out of the discussion.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I'm the adult child of an extramarital affair. Raised from age 4 by a step dad. Both my oldest kids are from my first marriage and their father is not involved. Never even paid his child support. Since they were 6 and 1, my DH has raised them.

Now that you know where I am coming from, I have to disagree with your statements above. 

The reality is, there are a lot of men who won't date women with children. There are a lot of men who are willing to date a woman with a child or two, but who want to make sure the father is involved because they don't want to be responsible for another man's seed. There aren't all that many men who are willing to be 100% responsible for raising another man's kids. 

So, yes, she should be grateful she found someone willing to raise her kid with her. Sorry, but the truth is that having a pre-made family isn't something a lot of people are looking for in a mate. Especially if they are younger people without kids of their own.

And, IMO, failing to acknowledge and express gratitude to the step-father raising another man's kid as his own diminishes the wonderful thing he is doing and the sacrifices he makes.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> I'm the adult child of an extramarital affair. Raised from age 4 by a step dad. Both my oldest kids are from my first marriage and their father is not involved. Never even paid his child support. Since they were 6 and 1, my DH has raised them.
> 
> Now that you know where I am coming from, I have to disagree with your statements above.
> 
> The reality is, there are a lot of men who won't date women with children. There are a lot of men who are willing to date a woman with a child or two, but who want to make sure the father is involved because they don't want to be responsible for another man's seed. There aren't all that many men who are willing to be 100% responsible for raising another man's kids.
> 
> So, yes, she should be grateful she found someone willing to raise her kid with her. Sorry, but the truth is that having a pre-made family isn't something a lot of people are looking for in a mate. Especially if they are younger people without kids of their own.
> 
> And, IMO, failing to acknowledge and express gratitude to the step-father raising another man's kid as his own diminishes the wonderful thing he is doing and the sacrifices he makes.


QFT...I know women who are single moms (dads not involved heavily)..and one in my family stopped dating for awhile - one of her issues was that single men without kids dont understand that her priority is her child and that she is not available at the drop of a dime to go out or go on vacation....she was in her late 30s/early 40s at the time dating professional men her own age and they didn't get it or care to get it...im not bashing them but it is a fact...

when you date someone with kids you do enter into a more complicated world of exes, commitments, etc - its not as simple as two single people without kids dating..I'm not saying its bad but it is a fact of life when you date people with kids...


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well this has been an eye opener of a day.It turns out I have some unlikely allies in her mother and young sister.Just before lunch I got a text from her sisters phone but it was from her mother.These are her exact words."Do not give her an inch,you have done so much for her and you get nothing in return".Well to say I was surprised is an understatement,I rung her sister and she told me that my fiancée was meeting me,which I had guessed,but that she was going to apologise to me for everything.She then said not to fall into her teary eyed trap and let her away with it.
I went to the coffee shop but waited outside and when my fiancée arrived I called her over and she got into my car.She immediately started talking but I told her to shut up.I then gave it to her with both barrels,I had actually made a list of times when she had tried to belittle me and also all the crap I put up with from her friends.She just kept nodding and saying I'm sorry and I didn't realise I was doing it.When I finally finished shouting I told her calmly that I had cancelled the reception but I think she knew.She asked me could she speak and I nodded.She told me that until the night her Father rang me her Mother didn't know we had fell out,her sister told her mother the full story and she was shocked.Her mother asked her was it all true and when she said it was her mother actually slapped her in the face.Her Mother then started crying and she said that was worse than been slapped.Since then her mother has told her that she is not looking after the boy at night and as far as she is concerned she is moving out of their house in October whether she gets married or not.My fiancée has always been the closest one in her family to her mother and she is really shocked that her mother didn't take her side.
She said she realises that she was completely in the wrong.
She said she is prepared to do anything to get us back together.
I am suspicious by nature and I said I need to think about this.We have arranged to talk again tomorrow.But I'm wondering if it is just her way of going back to square one.She was genuinely upset though and has sworn none of her friends will ever know anything about our private life again.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> when you date someone with kids you do enter into a more complicated world of exes, commitments, etc - its not as simple as two single people without kids dating..I'm not saying its bad but it is a fact of life when you date people with kids...


When I met DH we were both 24. We're just 3 months apart in age. We were worlds apart in lifestyle because I had two kids, friends who were married and also parents, etc. and he was childless with friends who were single and childless.

We discussed the situation and DH was well aware that my ex was NOT going to help with the kids in any way, financially or otherwise. He'd already thought about it and accepted that being with me would mean becoming an instant father.

His friends thought he was absolutely insane for dating and getting serious with a woman who had kids.

I think the hardest thing for him was not being able to just go do something at a moment's notice. He missed many social events because we couldn't get a sitter and the event wasn't child friendly. Missed many others because we got such short notice there wasn't time to gather up the kids, get everyone ready, get the kid gear packed and stowed in the car, let the dog out, and get there before it was damn near over.

He drifted away from most of his friends. He was too busy working and raising a family while they were footloose and fancy free. Now that the kids are older, he tried to reconnect. Unfortunately, they are now in the thick of raising younger kids and are too busy.

We won't even get into the stuff he wanted to buy, do, or see that we couldn't afford because kids are expensive lil critters. There was a lot that he wanted to do we could have done if it was just the two of us, but wasn't a great idea or too expensive to do with kids. 

And, of course, kids are cute. We're programmed to love them and think they're adorable so that we don't kill em. This means that the person stepping in to raise someone else's kid is going to get attached. Eventually, they'll probably even love the kid(s). So, what then? What if it doesn't work out? Now they have an attachment to kids that they have no legal rights to should they split before marriage or get a divorce.

There really is a lot more to consider when dating someone with kids that isn't even on the radar when dating someone without kids.

Which kind of brings us back to the OP. It seems he and the boy get along wonderfully and care very much for each other. It also seems that the OP and the boy's mother are a bad match and wouldn't have a good marriage.

I agree with many others. She's not ready for a marriage or she's not compatible with the OP. Maybe both. So, OP, I also advise going through with ending the relationship.


----------



## Yeswecan

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She didn't lose anybody.Her friends father died and she wants her and my fiancée to get tattoos.The tattoo is a six line verse about the size of a postcard and it will be impossible to miss.


The reasoning for this tattoo is seriously flawed. If her friends cat dies is your STB going to get a cat tat? One tat starts another and another. 

You have your boundary. Stick to it. If you don't your STB will steamroll more tats and other nonsense.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001 - have you ever called her out on her behavior before, or is this the first time you truly put your foot down with her? Maybe this is the shock she needed (not just from you but also from her family) to wake her ass up and start acting more like an adult? Take some time, don't rush any decisions. If she is truly remorseful and you believe in t he relationship with her, there is no reason why things can't move forward, maybe at a slow place. I believe now she understands that this behavior won't be tolerated and she may be kept on a short leash if this happens again.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well this has been an eye opener of a day.It turns out I have some unlikely allies in her mother and young sister.Just before lunch I got a text from her sisters phone but it was from her mother.These are her exact words."Do not give her an inch,you have done so much for her and you get nothing in return".Well to say I was surprised is an understatement,I rung her sister and she told me that my fiancée was meeting me,which I had guessed,but that she was going to apologise to me for everything.She then said not to fall into her teary eyed trap and let her away with it.
> I went to the coffee shop but waited outside and when my fiancée arrived I called her over and she got into my car.She immediately started talking but I told her to shut up.I then gave it to her with both barrels,I had actually made a list of times when she had tried to belittle me and also all the crap I put up with from her friends.She just kept nodding and saying I'm sorry and I didn't realise I was doing it.When I finally finished shouting I told her calmly that I had cancelled the reception but I think she knew.She asked me could she speak and I nodded.She told me that until the night her Father rang me her Mother didn't know we had fell out,her sister told her mother the full story and she was shocked.Her mother asked her was it all true and when she said it was her mother actually slapped her in the face.Her Mother then started crying and she said that was worse than been slapped.Since then her mother has told her that she is not looking after the boy at night and as far as she is concerned she is moving out of their house in October whether she gets married or not.My fiancée has always been the closest one in her family to her mother and she is really shocked that her mother didn't take her side.
> She said she realises that she was completely in the wrong.
> She said she is prepared to do anything to get us back together.
> I am suspicious by nature and I said I need to think about this.We have arranged to talk again tomorrow.But I'm wondering if it is just her way of going back to square one.She was genuinely upset though and has sworn none of her friends will ever know anything about our private life again.


One year pre-marital counseling minimum... then think about planning for a wedding after that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well, you call off the wedding , you two start dating again, go to pre-marital counseling and then you see if she is prepared to make real changes. Yes, this would include removing her toxic friends and drinking parties with the bad influences. Then you can make a final decision. Moving a wedding date is nothing compared to how bad it can be for you if you marry this woman in her current state.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well this has been an eye opener of a day.It turns out I have some unlikely allies in her mother and young sister.Just before lunch I got a text from her sisters phone but it was from her mother.These are her exact words*."Do not give her an inch,you have done so much for her and you get nothing in return".*Well to say I was surprised is an understatement,I rung her sister and she told me that my fiancée was meeting me,which I had guessed,but that she was going to apologise to me for everything.*She then said not to fall into her teary eyed trap and let her away with it.*
> I went to the coffee shop but waited outside and when my fiancée arrived I called her over and she got into my car.She immediately started talking but I told her to shut up.I then gave it to her with both barrels,I had actually made a list of times when she had tried to belittle me and also all the crap I put up with from her friends.She just kept nodding and saying I'm sorry and I didn't realise I was doing it.When I finally finished shouting I told her calmly that I had cancelled the reception but I think she knew.She asked me could she speak and I nodded.She told me that until the night her Father rang me her Mother didn't know we had fell out,her sister told her mother the full story and she was shocked.H*er mother asked her was it all true and when she said it was her mother actually slapped her in the face.*Her Mother then started crying and she said that was worse than been slapped.*Since then her mother has told her that she is not looking after the boy at night and as far as she is concerned she is moving out of their house in October whether she gets married or not.*My fiancée has always been the closest one in her family to her mother and she is really shocked that her mother didn't take her side.
> She said she realises that she was completely in the wrong.
> She said she is prepared to do anything to get us back together.
> I am suspicious by nature and I said I need to think about this.We have arranged to talk again tomorrow.But I'm wondering if it is just her way of going back to square one.She was genuinely upset though and has sworn none of her friends will ever know anything about our private life again.


Sounds to me like her family has long been sick of her shyte and were hoping you'd take her off their hands. Now that she's well on her way to destroying that dream, they let her have it.

She still sounds immature and not ready to be married. 

If you really love her and want this to work, have you thought about postponing the wedding and requiring her to live on her own, solely responsible for her bills and her child, for 6+ months before rescheduling the wedding? Maybe she'd mature a bit if she had to do for herself and her child on her own.


----------



## Yeswecan

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Sounds to me like her family has long been sick of her shyte and were hoping you'd take her off their hands. Now that she's well on her way to destroying that dream, they let her have it.
> 
> She still sounds immature and not ready to be married.
> 
> If you really love her and want this to work, have you thought about postponing the wedding and requiring her to live on her own, solely responsible for her bills and her child, for 6+ months before rescheduling the wedding? Maybe she'd mature a bit if she had to do for herself and her child on her own.


^^^^^excellent advise.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



EllisRedding said:


> @Andy1001 - have you ever called her out on her behavior before, or is this the first time you truly put your foot down with her? Maybe this is the shock she needed (not just from you but also from her family) to wake her ass up and start acting more like an adult? Take some time, don't rush any decisions. If she is truly remorseful and you believe in t he relationship with her, there is no reason why things can't move forward, maybe at a slow place. I believe now she understands that this behavior won't be tolerated and she may be kept on a short leash if this happens again.


We are together five years,if I told you how we met you would not believe it.Until last Sunday I have never called my fiancée out on her behaviour.We normally used to go out on our own or maybe bring the boy with us.Its since the wedding started getting closer that we have been in bars with her friends so often.By the way my fiancée is a soft touch when it comes to treating her friends,she is always the one who buys the tray of shots or jug of ****tails or if they are over at her or my house she will order Chinese food or pizza for everyone,as I said sh has a good business and it makes her a lot of money.I think some of them realise that when we are married her son will be living with us so the partying will be cut back.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Sounds to me like her family has long been sick of her shyte and were hoping you'd take her off their hands. Now that she's well on her way to destroying that dream, they let her have it.


It does explain why Daddy was willing to pay to have the tattoo removed.

I say @Andy1001 use this to his advantage, get her parents to buy him all sorts of gifts just so he will take their daughter >


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It sounds like she at least reacts well to a scolding when she is in the wrong. And she is able to admit it. Lots of people aren't. 
Now that you have stood up for yourself, continue to do so but be very careful to wield whatever power you have in the relationship very carefully. I would proceed very carefully and thoughtfully. 

In my experience, I find it extremely difficult to cut a woman loose when I have deep feelings invested with them. That is really not a good thing when profound problems start cropping up and are looked past out of love. Remember that love can be a fleeting thing for some people. 
And you are totally at a woman's mercy in a way, when it comes to changing their feelings about you.

I'm glad that you had the conversation with your fiancée, and hope you can figure out whether she is mature enough for marriage, and if you are truly compatible. Her friends would be of deep concern.

One thing is for sure, her mother seems to be a reasonable woman, able to see more than one perspective. That's a great thing.
Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We are together five years,if I told you how we met you would not believe it.Until last Sunday I have never called my fiancée out on her behaviour.We normally used to go out on our own or maybe bring the boy with us.Its since the wedding started getting closer that we have been in bars with her friends so often.By the way my fiancée is a soft touch when it comes to treating her friends,she is always the one who buys the tray of shots or jug of ****tails or if they are over at her or my house she will order Chinese food or pizza for everyone,as I said sh has a good business and it makes her a lot of money*.I think some of them realise that when we are married her son will be living with us so the partying will be cut back.*


She has a son, shouldn't her partying have been somewhat cut back as is, why should getting married make a difference


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Sounds to me like her family has long been sick of her shyte and were hoping you'd take her off their hands. Now that she's well on her way to destroying that dream, they let her have it.
> 
> She still sounds immature and not ready to be married.
> 
> If you really love her and want this to work, have you thought about postponing the wedding and requiring her to live on her own, solely responsible for her bills and her child, for 6+ months before rescheduling the wedding? Maybe she'd mature a bit if she had to do for herself and her child on her own.


That's exactly what I've been thinking.I thought for a while that she should have got the boy used to the idea of moving but she said he prefers life with her parents.This leaves her(and me) free to do what we want but it will come to a sudden stop if she has to take full time care of the boy.


----------



## Cletus

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> If you really love her and want this to work, have you thought about postponing the wedding and requiring her to live on her own, solely responsible for her bills and her child, for 6+ months before rescheduling the wedding? Maybe she'd mature a bit if she had to do for herself and her child on her own.


This is EXACTLY what I had my wife do before we got married. Not because she was irresponsible or entitled, but because this is just plain good ol' advice for anyone intending to live with another person.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001 - you are right to be suspicious - you absolutely should postpone the wedding and take your time with her - her parents don't want to see their daughter end up a single mom or with another loser so of course they don't want her to lose you..I get it...one conversation means next to nothing - she needs to back up her words with consistent actions over a period of time - oh and the toxic Chinese food eating friends need to be kept at a distance if not totally avoided - she is a parent she is not some college sorority girl living in a dorm...

Please correct me if i'm wrong - but it seems her parents and then you have always picked up the slack so she could be freer to do her thing? Is that correct? I agree with @MJJEAN - she needs to stand on her own two feet for awhile and grow up...


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That's exactly what I've been thinking.I thought for a while that she should have got the boy used to the idea of moving but she said he prefers life with her parents.This leaves her(and me) free to do what we want but it will come to a sudden stop if she has to take full time care of the boy.


But she shouldn't be free to do what she wants - your fiance has a kid to care for...


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That's exactly what I've been thinking.I thought for a while that she should have got the boy used to the idea of moving but she said he prefers life with her parents.This leaves her(and me) free to do what we want but it will come to a sudden stop if she has to take full time care of the boy.


Umm, she's his mother. Unless she's working or arranged a sitter for an occasion, she SHOULD be taking care of the boy full time. That's her job as his mother. Yeesh!

I have a feeling it's she who prefers to live with her parents because they enable her to be less than responsible as an adult and a parent.

Besides, you need to see what it's really like to date a woman with a child. You've had it on easy mode with her mother there to basically raise the kid while the two of you do whatever you guys do. 

Once you're married and living together, there won't be someone there to take care of the boy and the responsibility will fall to the two of you. 24/7/365. You need to see what that's like before you marry.

Definitely have her living on her own and taking care of her son to get a better glimpse of what married life will be like and to help her mature BEFORE you say "I do!".


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, you call off the wedding , you two start dating again, go to pre-marital counseling and then you see if she is prepared to make real changes. Yes, this would include removing her toxic friends and drinking parties with the bad influences. Then you can make a final decision. Moving a wedding date is nothing compared to how bad it can be for you if you marry this woman in her current state.


With her mother refusing to babysit she will not be able to meet her friends.Q


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I think you guys need to take three steps back.
She needs to grow up and you need to work through how you actually feel about her and her actions.
Go back to dating...get couples counseling.
See how it goes.


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Umm, she's his mother. Unless she's working or arranged a sitter for an occasion, she SHOULD be taking care of the boy full time. That's her job as his mother. Yeesh!
> 
> I have a feeling it's she who prefers to live with her parents because they enable her to be less than responsible as an adult and a parent.
> 
> Besides, you need to see what it's really like to date a woman with a child. You've had it on easy mode with her mother there to basically raise the kid while the two of you do whatever you guys do.
> 
> Once you're married and living together, there won't be someone there to take care of the boy and the responsibility will fall to the two of you. 24/7/365. You need to see what that's like before you marry.
> 
> Definitely have her living on her own and taking care of her son to get a better glimpse of what married life will be like and to help her mature BEFORE you say "I do!".


:iagree::iagree: You both need to see what it is like to be adult parents of a young child - I don't think your fiance is ready and perhaps her mom and dad are growing tired of letting their daughter remain a child while they raise her child...


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Something very funny happened this afternoon which completely slipped my mind.One of her mouthy friends texted me to say it was just a joke that got out of hand and I shouldn't have stopped my fiancée from going out all this week.I had no contact since Monday am with my fiancée so maybe by not going out she was starting to see sense.What was funny though was this friend said if things don't work out for me and my fiancée to give her a call if I wanted to talk"or something"
She is one of the main **** stirrers and now she wants to come to my house to "talk or something".
Honestly if this woman was on fire I wouldn't piss on her to put it out.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think some of them realise that when we are married her son will be living with us so the partying will be cut back.


Wait til you are having a few friends over for the first time in a long time, have been looking forward to it, have everything set up, then the kid all of a sudden starts projectile vomiting. :crying:

But, yes, as another poster has already said, the partying should have been cut back long ago. Other than the odd night out once a week, once every two weeks, or monthly...something like that anyways...she should be home caring for her child or be doing things she can bring the child with her to do.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Something very funny happened this afternoon which completely slipped my mind.One of her mouthy friends texted me to say it was just a joke that got out of hand and *I shouldn't have stopped my fiancée from going out all this week.*I had no contact since Monday am with my fiancée so maybe by not going out she was starting to see sense.What was funny though was this friend said if things don't work out for me and my fiancée to give her a call if I wanted to talk"or something"
> She is one of the main **** stirrers and now she wants to come to my house to "talk or something".
> Honestly if this woman was on fire I wouldn't piss on her to put it out.


My response to that comment would have been "She's got a young child to raise. She shouldn't be going out all week. Period."

If I was feeling particularly snarky, I'd have added "Why? Are you upset? Did you have to pay for your own drinks?"

Seriously, I'm just reading about this drama llama and feeling my blood pressure rise.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Truthseeker1, while I do stand by my initial response to you, I need to apologize, as well. I misunderstood what you meant in your post. I took it one way and you meant it another. I took it to be in line with the oft implied "you ought to get down on your knees and thank God you met me instead of the guy down the road"... and it seems your thought was "you were fortunate to meet a loving, caring man who loves your child. Most men don't want to bother with another man's child. You've got a great guy in Andy!"... Or maybe it was my mood at the time I wrote my reply. Either way, I apologize for going off, but I do stand by my point that I hate when people take the "you should get down on your knees and thank..." stance.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> @Truthseeker1, while I do stand by my initial response to you, I need to apologize, as well. I misunderstood what you meant in your post. I took it one way and you meant it another. I took it to be in line with the oft implied "you ought to get down on your knees and thank God you met me instead of the guy down the road"... and it seems your thought was "you were fortunate to meet a loving, caring man who loves your child. Most men don't want to bother with another man's child. You've got a great guy in Andy!"... Or maybe it was my mood at the time I wrote my reply. Either way, I apologize for going off, but I do stand by my point that I hate when people take the "you should get down on your knees and thank..." stance.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


No worries  I know single moms - like the one in my family - and their experience with finding partners has been difficult..people whether men or women who step up in this situation and step up at 100% are rare indeed..perhaps its me but I take sh!tty people for granted the genuinely decent and noble ones i'm grateful for...


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You're marrying a consistent partier that has a son at home getting raised by her parents????

Dude, you're really knee-deep in the stuff, aren't you. Girls like that aren't for marrying. They're for avoiding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well, you are seeing the types of friends she has and their influence. Again, don't make a hasty decision because everything seems to favor you right now. Go slow and eays because many people hide and cover up until they get what they want.


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## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Couples counseling?

_F*ck that._

Counseling is for _married_ couples, and if your relationship requires counseling prior to marriage, it's time to pull the plug.

And to Hell w/ going back to "just dating".

Just be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> No worries  I know single moms - like the one in my family - and their experience with finding partners has been difficult..people whether men or women who step up in this situation and step up at 100% are rare indeed..perhaps its me but I take sh!tty people for granted the genuinely decent and noble ones i'm grateful for...


Both of my sisters were fortunate, though I do still maintain one should have waited lol. And both of their husbands were early/mid 20s, while my sisters, at the time they each married them, were early 30s. Oddly enough, the one who was youngest at the time he married my sister, was actually the one who was ready to take on two young children and a wife. 😊 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Evinrude58 said:


> You're marrying a consistent partier that has a son at home getting raised by her parents????
> 
> Dude, you're really knee-deep in the stuff, aren't you. Girls like that aren't for marrying. They're for avoiding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I may have taken out of context here.My fiancée is a great mother to her son and if I gave any other impression then I apologise.What I meant was these freeloaders would have to find some other fool to pay for their nights out.My fiancée always gets her son up in the morning even when she stays over,she leaves him to and collects him from school every day.Her mother watches him at night but only if she is with me.With all the arrangements for the wedding we have been out more than usual and it is when she has drunk a lot that these problems arise.
She also runs a business with almost twenty employees part time and full time.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GusPolinski said:


> Couples counseling?
> 
> _F*ck that._
> 
> Counseling is for _married_ couples, and if your relationship requires counseling prior to marriage, it's time to pull the plug.
> 
> And to Hell w/ going back to "just dating".
> 
> Just be done.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, pre-marital counseling isn't the same as couples counseling. Since he is coming up with every reason to stay with this woman, I'm going to give him things to do instead of rushing into marriage.



> What I meant was these freeloaders would have to find some other fool to pay for their nights out.My fiancée always gets her son up in the morning even when she stays over,she leaves him to and collects him from school every day.Her mother watches him at night but only if she is with me.With all the arrangements for the wedding we have been out more than usual and it is when she has drunk a lot that these problems arise.


See, already blame shifting to the friends.


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> Both of my sisters were fortunate, though I do still maintain one should have waited lol. And both of their husbands were early/mid 20s, while my sisters, at the time they each married them, were early 30s. Oddly enough, the one who was youngest at the time he married my sister, was actually the one who was ready to take on two young children and a wife. 😊
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


They are indeed fortunate..especially sine their husbands were in their early/mid 20s..many men that age can't even be trusted with the laundry lol


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I may have taken out of context here.My fiancée is a great mother to her son and if I gave any other impression then I apologise.What I meant was these freeloaders would have to find some other fool to pay for their nights out.My fiancée always gets her son up in the morning even when she stays over,she leaves him to and collects him from school every day.Her mother watches him at night but only if she is with me.With all the arrangements for the wedding we have been out more than usual and it is when she has drunk a lot that these problems arise.


Then perhaps she shouldn't drink...


----------



## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I may have taken out of context here.My fiancée is a great mother to her son and if I gave any other impression then I apologise.What I meant was these freeloaders would have to find some other fool to pay for their nights out.My fiancée always gets her son up in the morning even when she stays over,she leaves him to and collects him from school every day.Her mother watches him at night but only if she is with me.With all the arrangements for the wedding we have been out more than usual and it is when she has drunk a lot that these problems arise.
> She also runs a business with almost twenty employees part time and full time.


her friends maybe freeloaders but she chose them, didnt she?


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## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> They are indeed fortunate..especially sine their husbands were in their early/mid 20s..many men that age can't even be trusted with the laundry lol


Welllll... the laundry is a different story... lol 😉

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, pre-marital counseling isn't the same as couples counseling. Since he is coming up with every reason to stay with this woman, I'm going to give him things to do instead of rushing into marriage.
> 
> See, already blame shifting to the friends.


Thing to do #1:

Immediately (and completely) drop any and all toxic friends, especially the one that offered to come over and "talk" if things don't work out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acoa

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She sounds like a people pleaser with boundary issues. My guess is if he does follow through and marry her, he will take over parenting duties from her mother. This will lead to resentments and eventually she will cheat on him. 

Andy, make it clear to her, you want a partner for a wife, not a child. She needs to prove she can put herself, her child and you above partying and her toxic friends.


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## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> My response to that comment would have been "She's got a young child to raise. She shouldn't be going out all week. Period."
> 
> If I was feeling particularly snarky, I'd have added "Why? Are you upset? Did you have to pay for your own drinks?"
> 
> Seriously, I'm just reading about this drama llama and feeling my blood pressure rise.





Andy1001 said:


> I may have taken out of context here.My fiancée is a great mother to her son and if I gave any other impression then I apologise.What I meant was these freeloaders would have to find some other fool to pay for their nights out.My fiancée always gets her son up in the morning even when she stays over,she leaves him to and collects him from school every day.Her mother watches him at night but only if she is with me.With all the arrangements for the wedding we have been out more than usual and it is when she has drunk a lot that these problems arise.
> She also runs a business with almost twenty employees part time and full time.


That does sound different. However, you need to think about why mom in law wants her out either way, come October. I think this is likely pointing at the fact that's she's not quite the mom you like to think, and your future mom in law is tired of being a free babysitter all the time.

Regardless of whatever, this desire to be partying and drinking is not the making of a good wife and mother.
Just saying you'd be wise to slow way down like you're doing.

Ask yourself if you're seeing her as she is, or how you'd like her to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Evinrude58 said:


> That does sound different. However, you need to think about why mom in law wants her out either way, come October. I think this is likely pointing at the fact that's she's not quite the mom you like to think, and your future mom in law is tired of being a free babysitter all the time.
> 
> Regardless of whatever, this desire to be partying and drinking is not the making of a good wife and mother.
> Just saying you'd be wise to slow way down like you're doing.
> 
> Ask yourself if you're seeing her as she is, or how you'd like her to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I think I just got a little excited at seeing her again,she is seriously hot.I never even thought about the tattoo so she might have already got it for all I know.Thats my problem when I see things from afar I am sensible enough but once she is beside me common sense seems to leave.


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## imtamnew

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p3j294sqM8


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## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Is she the youngest child in her family? She acts that way. 

If she's that successful in her business, she needs to get her own place and get daycare for her kid while she's at work. She has a lot of growing up to do. She needs to be a responsible adult rather than using other people and then acting like a brat when she doesn't get her way.

Her family's reaction is *very, very* revealing. This isn't a one time thing. This points to a long pattern of similar behavior and is likely deeply rooted in her personality.


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## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I suspect if a girl is really attractive, it's hard to grow up not feeling like they're above the "commoners". There are some, but sometimes I almost wonder if being a particularly hot, hottie, isn't almost a detriment on a person's psychological development. People make exceptions and treat exceptionally beautiful people differently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I may have taken out of context here.My fiancée is a great mother to her son and if I gave any other impression then I apologise. What I meant was these freeloaders would have to find some other fool to pay for their nights out.My fiancée always gets her son up in the morning even when she stays over,she leaves him to and collects him from school every day.Her mother watches him at night but only if she is with me.With all the arrangements for the wedding we have been out more than usual and it is when she has drunk a lot that these problems arise.
> She also runs a business with almost twenty employees part time and full time.


So, who gets up with him in the night when she's with you? Say he gets sick or has bad dreams or just can't sleep? Who takes care of him then? Answer: Not his mother

You're marrying a woman with a child and stepping into the role of father. Most mothers and fathers have to take their child with them when they run errands, plan parties, etc. If they cannot bring the kid along, one will go and the other will stay with the child.

Making arrangements for a wedding doesn't require drinking. I can understand asking Grandma to watch the kiddo while Mom and Step Dad To Be are picking flowers and china, but anything other than that and special occasions, the kid is supposed to be with his parent(s).

Between her business, her active social life, and her time with you, make no mistake, her mother is raising her kid. It seems she just visits for an hour or two a day.

This is a problem for two reasons. 1) She's slacking on her responsibilities as a parent and 2) You really have no idea what it's going to be like when the two of you have to actually take care of the kid all day, every day, weekends included. This will seriously impede both of your ability to go out and be social. Even gatherings at home will have to be arranged around the child's sleeping, waking, meal, and school schedule.

How well are you both going to cope with having to be home Sun-Fri in the afternoon and evening, for years on end, other than the rare night out, because..ummm...there's a kid to care for?


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## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Yeah I think I just got a little excited at seeing her again,she is seriously hot.I never even thought about the tattoo so she might have already got it for all I know.Thats my problem when I see things from afar I am sensible enough but once she is beside me common sense seems to leave.


 You should find out for sure if she went ahead and got the tattoo. Hopefully she didn't go through with it. But if she did, even after all that has went on, then she has very little respect for you and your relationship. You should find out.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

No she didn't get the tattoo,her mother just rung to see how I was and she said that she didn't get it.I know my last few posts have been out of tune with earlier but I have been having a few beers and it tends to make me see the best in everyone.Nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned the wedding is off for at least a year and unless she proves to me she has really changed that's how it is going to stay.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> So, who gets up with him in the night when she's with you? Say he gets sick or has bad dreams or just can't sleep? Who takes care of him then? Answer: Not his mother
> 
> You're marrying a woman with a child and stepping into the role of father. Most mothers and fathers have to take their child with them when they run errands, plan parties, etc. If they cannot bring the kid along, one will go and the other will stay with the child.
> 
> Making arrangements for a wedding doesn't require drinking. I can understand asking Grandma to watch the kiddo while Mom and Step Dad To Be are picking flowers and china, but anything other than that and special occasions, the kid is supposed to be with his parent(s).
> 
> Between her business, her active social life, and her time with you, make no mistake, her mother is raising her kid. It seems she just visits for an hour or two a day.
> 
> This is a problem for two reasons. 1) She's slacking on her responsibilities as a parent and 2) You really have no idea what it's going to be like when the two of you have to actually take care of the kid all day, every day, weekends included. This will seriously impede both of your ability to go out and be social. Even gatherings at home will have to be arranged around the child's sleeping, waking, meal, and school schedule.
> 
> How well are you both going to cope with having to be home Sun-Fri in the afternoon and evening, for years on end, other than the rare night out, because..ummm...there's a kid to care for?


I take your point.Thank you for the advice.


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## foolscotton3

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Don't get married.
That's my advice, never get married. Marriage offers no benefits that you cannot get without.

Edit: for less money and stress.

Sent from my Z936L using Tapatalk


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## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I was buying a new car and it was an estate(station wagon) model but she insisted on me getting a sporty model instead.A couple of months later she said I was crazy to buy it.She asked me once did I think a buzz cut would suit her and I said no,she got one anyway and even though I thought it looked great she cried her eyes out and told her friends that I convinced her to get it and like a fool I went along with it.


I am late to the game here, and I wanted to respond to some other comments from the great posters here and add my two cents, but I wanted to wait until the end. BUT this one I can't let go. 

She did TWO things - 1) convinced you to make HER choice and not go with your gut or intuition or desire or even compromise (you said she "insisted") and then blamed you when she didn't like it, and 2) she did a stupid thing like get a buzz cut and then lie to people and say you made her do it. 

This woman does not accept the responsibility of making her own choices and does not accept the consequences of them.


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## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> No she didn't get the tattoo,her mother just rung to see how I was and she said that she didn't get it.I know my last few posts have been out of tune with earlier but I have been having a few beers and it tends to make me see the best in everyone.Nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned the wedding is off for at least a year and unless she proves to me she has really changed that's how it is going to stay.


:corkysm60:


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Sounds to me like her family has long been sick of her shyte and were hoping you'd take her off their hands. Now that she's well on her way to destroying that dream, they let her have it.
> 
> She still sounds immature and not ready to be married.
> 
> If you really love her and want this to work, have you thought about postponing the wedding and requiring her to live on her own, solely responsible for her bills and her child, for 6+ months before rescheduling the wedding? Maybe she'd mature a bit if she had to do for herself and her child on her own.


I think this is the best piece of advice I've got yet.I am going to put this to her tomorrow.I am starting to worry about the effect this is having on the boy because according to my fiancées sister the atmosphere at her parents house is bad with her getting it from all sides.It turns out her Dad just thought it was pre wedding jitters from me and knew nothing about our agreement about no tattoos.Her mother apparently tore her Dad a new one for interfering and my fiancée insists she never asked him to.Her mother is adamant that after our original wedding date my fiancée is moving out with the boy and she will only babysit on occasion.


----------



## Cletus

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think this is the best piece of advice I've got yet.I am going to put this to her tomorrow.I am starting to worry about the effect this is having on the boy because according to my fiancées sister the atmosphere at her parents house is bad with her getting it from all sides.It turns out her Dad just thought it was pre wedding jitters from me and knew nothing about our agreement about no tattoos.Her mother apparently tore her Dad a new one for interfering and my fiancée insists she never asked him to.Her mother is adamant that after our original wedding date my fiancée is moving out with the boy and she will only babysit on occasion.


And here I thought "Everybody Loves Raymond" was fiction.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think this is the best piece of advice I've got yet.I am going to put this to her tomorrow.I am starting to worry about the effect this is having on the boy because according to my fiancées sister the atmosphere at her parents house is bad with her getting it from all sides.It turns out her Dad just thought it was pre wedding jitters from me and knew nothing about our agreement about no tattoos.Her mother apparently tore her Dad a new one for interfering and my fiancée insists she never asked him to.Her mother is adamant that after our original wedding date my fiancée is moving out with the boy and she will only babysit on occasion.


Eh, why wait? You said she has a business and is financially secure. If she can afford to treat her friends at the bars, I'm sure she can afford to move in to a rental.

I mean, her parents want her to move out anyways and you want her to live on her own and care for her son on her own so that you both can adjust to parenting and the restrictions that naturally come with it, so why not get the ball rolling and get her into her own place asap?


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## Truthseeker1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Eh, why wait? You said she has a business and is financially secure. If she can afford to treat her friends at the bars, I'm sure she can afford to move in to a rental.


So she can keep that party going for the rest of the summer...:wink2:


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> So she can keep that party going for the rest of the summer...:wink2:


You have given me some good advice during this thread and I am grateful to you.When I woke up this morning I Realised that nothing had changed and I was fooling myself yesterday and trying to make excuses for her (and my) behaviour.I think she needs to start caring for the boy more than she has been.One point I will make is the reason her parents look after him so much is that her three sisters are employed by her and she is very flexible with them.I am starting to make a list of things we need to be doing if we are going to continue,eg partying stops now,which it has anyway.I am considering showing her the texts from her friend offering to come over to my house because that will probably get her and maybe more of them out of the picture Again thank you for your advise.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> I am late to the game here, and I wanted to respond to some other comments from the great posters here and add my two cents, but I wanted to wait until the end. BUT this one I can't let go.
> 
> She did TWO things - 1) convinced you to make HER choice and not go with your gut or intuition or desire or even compromise (you said she "insisted") and then blamed you when she didn't like it, and 2) she did a stupid thing like get a buzz cut and then lie to people and say you made her do it.
> 
> This woman does not accept the responsibility of making her own choices and does not accept the consequences of them.


Believe me that is only a fraction of the things I let her away with.She invited relations to stay in my house during a family wedding without asking me first.The first I knew about it was when the extra beds she bought were been delivered,but at least she paid for them.I am making a list of things I let her away with and I can't believe how ###%^ stupid I have been.Thank you for your comments.


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## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am engaged to be married next October,my fiancée is 32 and has a seven year old son from a previous relationship.When we started being exclusive I made a point of saying tattoos were a deal breaker


If you don't respect yourself at this point, you'll never get off your knees.


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## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That's exactly what I am afraid of.By the way she also had a"deal breaker"hers was if I ever made a comment about raising another mans child.I have never and would never say a word about that,I love her son like my own and it is because of him that I am looking for advice rather than just calling off the whole wedding.


Yes, but I think that is part of it.

She isn't really in a peer-relationship with you. You're a roommate with benefits (sex, childminder, proxy dad), her real relationship is as a mum, and with "her friends". You are ... convenient.


----------



## arbitrator

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

*If the subject matter of "deal breakers" were sincerely discussed and clearly understood by her prior to the exclusivity of the relationship, then this would be more than just a blatant disregard for your wishes!

To wit, you are wholeheartedly justified in your actions! By getting that tattoo, she is boldly and knowingly placing her selfish wishes ahead of your impending long-term relationship with her! This is simply referred to as a "broken promise" and is, in effect, nothing more than "a lie!"

I say that you should continue to stick by your guns as well as your spoken word!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You have given me some good advice during this thread and I am grateful to you.When I woke up this morning I Realised that nothing had changed and I was fooling myself yesterday and trying to make excuses for her (and my) behaviour.*I think she needs to start caring for the boy more than she has been.*One point I will make is the reason her parents look after him so much is that her three sisters are employed by her and she is very flexible with them*.I am starting to make a list of things we need to be doing if we are going to continue,eg partying stops now,*which it has anyway.*I am considering showing her the texts from her friend *offering to come over to my house because that will probably get her and maybe more of them out of the picture Again thank you for your advise.


Regardless of how things work out between you two, you probably should show her the texts. I'd want to know who my friends were and who were just circling vultures.

And, yes, you should talk to her about actually raising her son instead of pawning him off on her family, whatever the reason they put up with it. So what if she is flexible with her sisters schedules? That still doesn't make her behavior ok. It's just another excuse for her.

You may also want to think about having a few other conversations with her. 

Have you talked about children? Doe she want more? Do you? If so, how will those children be raised? By you and her or by her parents and siblings?

Have you discussed boundaries? Acceptable behavior in marriage?

Have you discussed where you will live, life goals, etc?

Have you talked about religion and what role, if any, it will play in your lives and in rearing children?

Have you discussed who will pay the bills and how? Joint account? Separate accounts with a joint account to pay household expenses? Just separate accounts with each of you paying certain bills?

Have you considered going to pre-marital counseling?

My faith offers/requires 6 months of pre-marital counseling. There is a reason for that. It's astounding how many couples don't hash out the details, think behaviors will change post marriage, etc., only to have serious problems later.

If you aren't people of any faith, there are secular counselors available to do the same thing.

Get the details hashed out. Make sure you're on the same page, for real. Action backing up words. And make sure you're as compatible as you think you are.

Marriage is supposed to be for life, yes? The rest of your life is a very long and very painful time when you're hitched to "almost right" and it's flat out Hell when hitched to "totally wrong".







Andy1001 said:


> I think this is the best piece of advice I've got yet.I am going to put this to her tomorrow.I am starting to worry about the effect this is having on the boy because according to my fiancées sister the atmosphere at her parents house is bad with her getting it from all sides.It turns out her Dad just thought it was pre wedding jitters from me and knew nothing about our agreement about no tattoos.Her mother apparently tore her Dad a new one for interfering and my fiancée insists she never asked him to.Her mother is adamant that after our original wedding date my fiancée is moving out with the boy and she will only babysit on occasion.


So what will you do if Grandma cools down and things go back to status quo? Would that be a dealbreaker for you?

Frankly, were I a man and selecting a life mate and mother to my future child(ren), I'd be highly concerned.

If her child was your bio child, would you be ok with her leaving him with her parents to go out socializing with friends/having drinks or so that she could spend the night with a lover?


----------



## NoChoice

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

OP,
This woman is immature. She is irresponsible. She is spoiled. She is selfish. She believes she must "buy" friends so she is very insecure and unsure of herself. She is a child. However, she has one redeeming quality that supersedes all of that, she is smoking hot.

I believe you are attempting cognition with the wrong head.


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## jsmart

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I'm totally with @NoChoice . There are way too many red flags that reveal she is not wife material. It's obvious that OP is blinded to the facts by her "hotness." His girl is easily influenced by her friends. Getting a tattoo because her friend's dad past away? The crazy haircut after you strongly objected. To me these are deal breakers. Can you imagine if you were married, what kind of $hit test she's going to pull?
@MJJEAN made some very good suggestions throughout this thread. If you followed them, there's a better chance of having a successful relationship. I'm not convinced that she's ready to be a wife & mother or that you're ready to be stepdad. 

There's a big difference between spending some pleasant afternoons with a single mom and her kid and actually being a stepdad to said kid. Have you discussed having your own kids with her? Marriage is very hard work, throw in the step kid(s) and it's that much tougher.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I haven't spoken to my fiancée today yet but I have been ringing my relatives to tell them the wedding is off.My elder brother called me a stupid #%#%# and hung up!
However he rung back when he cooled down and we had a long talk.He is my only sibling and is sixteen years older than me.He had left home when I was still a baby,got married at eighteen and is still thinks his wife is the hottest girl on the planet.We were never really close but when I was younger I was working in the UK and stayed with him and his family for three months.His son is less than three years younger than me.He said exactly what some of the people on this platform said that my fiancée (he has never met her)was only a mother in name and neither of us have a clue what married life would be like.He wasn't as polite as that but you get the gist of it.
He did make a suggestion though and I would like some other people's opinion before putting it to my fiancée.He said for us to take two weeks holiday with the boy and just act like a normal family,go to parks or shows but no babysitters and no drinking.He then suggested not living together but have a room for the boy in my house so that if fiancée stayed over he would come as well and slowly we would figure out if we should be together.


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## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> married at eighteen and is still thinks his wife is the hottest girl on the planet.


I think this is something the fine members of TAM should decide on >



Andy1001 said:


> He did make a suggestion though and I would like some other people's opinion before putting it to my fiancée.He said for us to take two weeks holiday with the boy and just act like a normal family,go to parks or shows but no babysitters and no drinking.He then suggested not living together but have a room for the boy in my house so that if fiancée stayed over he would come as well and slowly we would figure out if we should be together.


I do think this is a good suggestion, a good starting point. Ultimately though, as @MJJEAN has stated so well, your fiancee needs to show that she can act like an adult/mother on her own, without intervention from her family or yourself. The first step of course, would be for her to move out of her family's house and get an apt on her own.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Her moving out is the first thing on the agenda.


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## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I think your brother's advice about the holiday is good. Two weeks, non-stop, as @MJJEAN says, 24/7, even if not 365, but 14 days with the child would demonstrate the response to waking up in the middle of the night or hoping for a longer nap, or dirty nappies, whatever you might encounter.

But I honestly have to say . . . I will be surprised if this person grows up. I dated someone who sounds like your fiancee, and he was heavily dependent upon his mother. 

While I think all the things you're proposing, and addressing everything on MJJEAN's list is important, honestly, it sounds as if her mother and father were helping her with child care while she is working, perhaps a lot, and perhaps feels she needs her nights out, but it seems to have evolved to a place where she just leaves the childcare up to her Mum and Dad, just out of habit. She lives with them . . . it sounds like you would be replacing her parents as the person who gives her structure and direction (and gives that to the child as well). The issue of breaking the agreement about the tattoo may be an issue of her need for an education in what agreeing to something together means, and the fact that it is binding, or it may be that she just doesn't care. You have to get to the bottom of which it is. She may see you as a leader now and want to respond to that, but you need time, before you marry, to be sure that's the case and that she won't rebel later on. 

I guess what I'm saying is, you won't just be Dad to the child. You mentioned that the girlfriend who was insisting that your fiancee get the tattoo goes through a new guy every month, and it is easy to see why . . . when boundaries and agreements aren't honored, and your partner's preferences, which are already acknowledged and agreed to, are ignored, relationships suffer. This woman friend of your fiancee seems to think the world revolves around her, and your fiancee DOES need a new set of friends. 

Ultimately, though, I agree with @jsmart and believe she is not ready to be a wife and mother. Either it is a matter of educating her in healthy relationships or she is just too young emotionally. Either way, she will learn something from this relationship, and so will you (and hope you realize how important and significant and really good FOR you that you are learning to refuse to compromise on agreements and boundaries, or that the way your fiancee sets out to "renegotiate" them is not in a bar with your partner making a public announcement in front of friends to set you off, as it should, and you need not back down), and therefore if it ends, so it has not been a total waste.


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## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

How about she moves into her own place and once she and her boy have settled in, and she's been responsible for the majority of his care, you then take two weeks to spend as a potential family? If that goes well, you can come back and set the boy up a room at your place so that he can visit when his mother does. Then, if it's really working, you can think of moving forward.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001:

There is not anything I can say about your fiance that has not already been said by other posters. Immature, prideful, defiant, and untrustworthy all come to mind. @NoChoice also had a great point in asking you which head you were using to think. She has shown you who she is, so it is time to believe her. However, that point has been hammered home multiple times. Mine echoing that will be a drop in a sea of voices.

I will say this: Her exceptional beauty, plus her need for external validation, combined with her unwillingness to accept responsibility for her choices, as well as her need to blame you, is the surest recipe for a cheating spouse as you will find anywhere. Proceed at your own peril 

Here is where I want to hone in on _you_. Yes, _you_.



Andy1001 said:


> I went to the coffee shop but waited outside and when my fiancée arrived I called her over and she got into my car.She immediately started talking but I told her to shut up.


Shut up? Really? Do you see you are already falling into the trap of treating her like a subordinate, or someone less than you? I totally get where you are coming from, but there is NO ROOM for treating a significant other as such. 



Andy1001 said:


> I then gave it to her with both barrels,I had actually made a list of times when she had tried to belittle me and also all the crap I put up with from her friends.She just kept nodding and saying I'm sorry and I didn't realise I was doing it.


Why were you shouting? When you show emotion that way, it is the opposite of trust. Additionally, your point is often lost (luckily not in this case) in the delivery. This, combined with the fact that you are choosing a bride with the wrong head, tells me she is not the only one who needs to grow up some. The only thing that makes me thing you two don't deserve each other is the fact that you are starting to take her off of her pedestal.



Andy1001 said:


> She said she is prepared to do anything to get us back together.I am suspicious by nature and I said I need to think about this.We have arranged to talk again tomorrow.But I'm wondering if it is just her way of going back to square one.She was genuinely upset though and has sworn none of her friends will ever know anything about our private life again.


Andy, I want you to Google the Karpman Drama Triangle. After reading it, come back here and tell us what consistencies you see between your relationship and Karpman's model.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> Google the Karpman Drama Triangle.


Wow... first time seeing this... very interesting.

Thanks so much for sharing!

:smthumbup:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

See, the kid is the hardest part. Trust me, it is not going to be easy. Holidays, extra rooms etc etc are going to make it harder for you to make a decision. I know, I went through it myself. You need to sit down and decide if this is REALLY what YOU want to do. Acting like everything is normal, giving the kid a room, acting even moire like a father and going on a special holiday is going to traumatize him if you leave., Also, it adds a guilt burden onto you and may lead to a hasty decision. 

You need to sit down and honestly decide if this is what you really want.


----------



## Adelais

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would like some other people's opinion before putting it to my fiancée.He said for us to take two weeks holiday with the boy and just act like a normal family,go to parks or shows but no babysitters and no drinking.He then suggested not living together but have a room for the boy in my house so that if fiancée stayed over he would come as well and slowly we would figure out if we should be together.


If you do something like that, it will need to be after she has lived on her own for 6 + months and proven that she knows how to be a proper mother and girlfriend.

I think that that her staying over with her son sends a wrong message to the son. If you break up, the poor boy has had a new dad in his life only to lose him (again.) In addition, if she starts staying over, it will be harder to break up.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> See, the kid is the hardest part. Trust me, it is not going to be easy. Holidays, extra rooms etc etc are going to make it harder for you to make a decision. I know, I went through it myself. You need to sit down and decide if this is REALLY what YOU want to do. Acting like everything is normal, giving the kid a room, acting even moire like a father and going on a special holiday is going to traumatize him if you leave., Also, it adds a guilt burden onto you and may lead to a hasty decision.
> 
> You need to sit down and honestly decide if this is what you really want.


QFT! My h couldn't make the break with OW in large part because he had bonded with her child. He would complain that the OW wouldn't back him up and would undermine his attempts to put discipline and structure in the kid's life, and given my h's mental and psychological development (or underdevelopment) and his need to be a KISA, he felt he had to stay to protect the kid from the alcoholic mother/OW. 

There's already dysfunction here, Andy. When you become the dad, the dysfunction can only potentially worsen, but there's very little good you can do to make it better once you're hitched and she's comfortable with the status quo. Your heart will be broken, the kid's heart will be broken, but mom could just flit on as usual.


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## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> .Thats my problem when I see things from afar I am sensible enough but once she is beside me common sense seems to leave.


Yes, isn't that the truth.

And THAT is what makes this so hard to resolve. 

You do still love her.

Counseling at this point, before you even get married sounds stupid, but what else can you do to fix this situation?....other than to bail on the marriage. The wedding is on the horizon. Lots of pressure and push-back from everyone.

A really big decision. 

I would tell her that you love her. You love her but you allow no one to bully you, no one to ride roughshod on your feelings. 

A man's Pride is his most powerful trait. It can buttress him or destroy him. Yours seems appropriate. Keep it appropriate to the situation....as it is here. 

Tell her that YOUR word is your bond. Tell her that HER word must be HER bond. 

If Her Word is changeable then HER word is SOLVENT and it will dissolve the bond that will be your marriage.

Make sure your decision is not controlling in the negative sense, but rather in the shepherding or guiding sense. 

I think it is. Be the adult here.


----------



## Chris Taylor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

As much as I'd like to say that this can be worked out, it can't.

First, your girlfriend is 32. She's not going to change. Her behavior pattern was set a long time ago.

She runs her own company, which means she's used to getting her own way.

The behavior is so prevalent with her that her parents are desperate to have her get married to the point that her father would pay for tattoo removal and her mother slapped her at the prospect of losing you.

This woman will not change. You may win on the tattoo, but you have taught her before that you will bend your boundaries. You may win on the tattoo but will lose in the future.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I am meeting her at eight tonight,just to talk and I have decided to approach our relationship like this 
1.She makes arrangements to move into a rented apt or house immediately.
2.I have forwarded to her the texts from her friends to me.I got another offer of a shoulder to cry on today from one of her employees.This girl is under the impression that I own a stake in my fiancées business but I don't.
3.We start to include her son in as many activities as possible.
4.She cuts back on the hours she works and is a full time mother eg cooking his meals,bringing him to whatever summer activities he wants seeing as school is over for the time being.
5.We take a break together with the boy in October when we would have been on honeymoon.He will have to be removed from school for this but he will still be only seven years old so it should be ok.
7.She refuses to allow her friends to come to her home when I am there,also no free visits to her studio.
I am also telling her to make her own list of conditions as I see I have been playing the victim here.


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## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

LOL. Playing the victim. 

Good luck. I hope things work out.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> @Andy1001:
> 
> There is not anything I can say about your fiance that has not already been said by other posters. Immature, prideful, defiant, and untrustworthy all come to mind. @NoChoice also had a great point in asking you which head you were using to think. She has shown you who she is, so it is time to believe her. However, that point has been hammered home multiple times. Mine echoing that will be a drop in a sea of voices.
> 
> I will say this: Her exceptional beauty, plus her need for external validation, combined with her unwillingness to accept responsibility for her choices, as well as her need to blame you, is the surest recipe for a cheating spouse as you will find anywhere. Proceed at your own peril
> 
> Here is where I want to hone in on _you_. Yes, _you_.
> 
> 
> 
> Shut up? Really? Do you see you are already falling into the trap of treating her like a subordinate, or someone less than you? I totally get where you are coming from, but there is NO ROOM for treating a significant other as such.
> 
> 
> 
> Why were you shouting? When you show emotion that way, it is the opposite of trust. Additionally, your point is often lost (luckily not in this case) in the delivery. This, combined with the fact that you are choosing a bride with the wrong head, tells me she is not the only one who needs to grow up some. The only thing that makes me thing you two don't deserve each other is the fact that you are starting to take her off of her pedestal.
> 
> 
> 
> Andy, I want you to Google the Karpman Drama Triangle. After reading it, come back here and tell us what consistencies you see between your relationship and Karpman's model.


I Han never heard of this before but it is very interesting.I see I have been portraying myself as the victim and then the aggressor.It will take me a while to understand this fully.


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## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She probably has only one condition. You stop trying to control her life.

Your intentions might be good, and your concern for the boy commendable, but if you express your conditions using the wording above that discussion with end in a fight. Unless you want it to. 

1. Strike out the word immediately and replace with as soon as practical.
2. How about YOU stop texting and chatting with her friends. That should be no-brainer boundaries. 
3. Why do that unless you want to use the kid as leverage to domestic her more? That is using the kid as a pawn, or tool to get your way. (I hope I am just reading that wrong). Do you really want the kid to bond more with you only for you to end it later?
4. IMO she will take that to be controlling. If that is your version of a wife, you might be better just to move on now. 
5. What is your purpose there? A pseudo-honeymoon? Why interfere with the kid's schooling? How does the child benefit from this trip? Or is he invited to serve your purposes. 
7. Just wow. 

Ok, I get that she is wild and maybe not the type of person you want as a wife right now. But you seem to be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole. Why are trying to make her into something she is not. She just is not right for you. Some other guy, maybe, but not you. Why are you not seeking a woman that fits your criteria now.

The only reason I can imagine for you wanting this woman is that she is really hot and sex is great.


----------



## foolscotton3

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I Han never heard of this before but it is very interesting.I see I have been portraying myself as the victim and then the aggressor.It will take me a while to understand this fully.


The victim is static in the karpman triangle

Giggity Giggity


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> She probably has only one condition. You stop trying to control her life.
> 
> Your intentions might be good, and your concern for the boy commendable, but if you express your conditions using the wording above that discussion with end in a fight. Unless you want it to.
> 
> 1. Strike out the word immediately and replace with as soon as practical.
> 2. How about YOU stop texting and chatting with her friends. That should be no-brainer boundaries.
> 3. Why do that unless you want to use the kid as leverage to domestic her more? That is using the kid as a pawn, or tool to get your way. (I hope I am just reading that wrong). Do you really want the kid to bond more with you only for you to end it later?
> 4. IMO she will take that to be controlling. If that is your version of a wife, you might be better just to move on now.
> 5. What is your purpose there? A pseudo-honeymoon? Why interfere with the kid's schooling? How does the child benefit from this trip? Or is he invited to serve your purposes.
> 7. Just wow.
> 
> Ok, I get that she is wild and maybe not the type of person you want as a wife right now. But you seem to be trying to fit a square peg into a round whole. Why are trying to make her into something she is not. She just is not right for you. Some other guy, maybe, but not you. Why are you not seeking a woman that fits your criteria now.
> 
> The only reason I can imagine for you wanting this woman is that she is really hot and sex is great.


I have never texted her friends.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



foolscotton3 said:


> The victim is static in the karpman triangle
> 
> Giggity Giggity


No. The most common transition is from victim to aggressor. 

Think DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender).


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I haven't spoken to my fiancée today yet but I have been ringing my relatives to tell them the wedding is off.My elder brother called me a stupid #%#%# and hung up!
> However he rung back when he cooled down and we had a long talk.He is my only sibling and is sixteen years older than me.He had left home when I was still a baby,got married at eighteen and is still thinks his wife is the hottest girl on the planet.We were never really close but when I was younger I was working in the UK and stayed with him and his family for three months.His son is less than three years younger than me.He said exactly what some of the people on this platform said that my fiancée (he has never met her)was only a mother in name and neither of us have a clue what married life would be like.He wasn't as polite as that but you get the gist of it.
> He did make a suggestion though and I would like some other people's opinion before putting it to my fiancée.*He said for us to take two weeks holiday with the boy and just act like a normal family,go to parks or shows but no babysitters and no drinking.He then suggested not living together but have a room for the boy in my house so that if fiancée stayed over he would come as well and slowly we would figure out if we should be together.*


What an amazingly stupid idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GusPolinski said:


> What an amazingly stupid idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is so stupid about it.


----------



## imtamnew

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

That kid is NOT a PAWN.


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## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I have never texted her friends.


You must be very attractive and have a high sex appeal score for these women to 1) get your number, 2) pass it around the office and 3) offer their shoulders to cry on.

My point is that your conditions look like a business contract. A poor one at that because it will evoke a negative emotional response from the other party. If those are your conditions, fine, but try to soften the language and put each one in context and give reason behind it that benefits both of you.

How you deliver these will be key to getting what you both need and want.


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> What is so stupid about it.


I can't believe I have to explain this.

You want to use a "family" vacation as a litmus test for determining whether or not you should continue in a relationship w/ this woman...?

That's abso-f*cking-lutely ludicrous.

Newsflash: people aren't who they usually are when they're on vacation. They aren't working, paying bills, running errands, or dealing w/ the everyday stressors of day-to-day life... they're on vacation.

Come on.

And about the kid? Think about it... you've _already_ cancelled/postponed the wedding, and before too long you may be cancelling the engagement as well. Do you _really_ want to further cloud your judgement by creating additional opportunities to bond w/ a boy whose mother you may no longer be involved with a month (or less) from now? Should that (a breakup) come to pass, that won't have been fair to any of you -- especially him.

Relationships need to be able to stand or fail on their own merit. You need to be able to determine whether or not this woman will be a suitable partner for you in the long term _free of the fact_ that she happens to be the mother of the small child of whom you've doubtlessly become quite fond. Simultaneously, she needs to show you that she CAN be a mother free of all the help she's apparently getting from her family while living under her parents' roof. Otherwise, who do you think will be handling the bulk of any parenting duties once they're living w/ you?

It'll be _you_.

And then you really will be raising another man's child --

_Alone._
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

What do you love about her that you wanted to marry her? Leave out that she is attractive and good sex partner.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> You must be very attractive and have a high sex appeal score for these women to 1) get your number, 2) pass it around the office and 3) offer their shoulders to cry on.
> 
> My point is that your conditions look like a business contract. A poor one at that because it will evoke a negative emotional response from the other party. If those are your conditions, fine, but try to soften the language and put each one in context and give reason behind it that benefits both of you.
> 
> How you deliver these will be key to getting what you both need and want.


These are the problems I'm trying to sort out.Some of the recent comments have suggested that all I am concerned with is sex with my fiancée but that is not true.Yeah I would be considered very handsome but from my first date with my fiancée I have never touched another woman let alone slept with one.I am not looking for a pat on the back here it was just the way I was raised.
My parents were married over forty years and my Brother has been married thirty and counting.
Until last week I thought we were doing fine butI see it was destined to fail.I have so many confusing thoughts going through my head right now that I don't know what to do and my fiancée will be here shortly.


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## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You need more time to get your head straight. You shouldn't be jumping at every chance to spent time around her right now.

Bottom line -- you need to stop _feeling_ your way through this and start _thinking_ your way through it.

Hot and sexy doesn't necessarily make for the best partner in the long term.

_Especially_ when it's all tatted up w/ a buzz cut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am meeting her at eight tonight,just to talk and I have decided to approach our relationship like this
> 1.She makes arrangements to move into a rented apt or house immediately.
> 2.I have forwarded to her the texts from her friends to me.I got another offer of a shoulder to cry on today from one of her employees.This girl is under the impression that I own a stake in my fiancées business but I don't.
> 3.We start to include her son in as many activities as possible.
> 4.She cuts back on the hours she works and is a full time mother eg cooking his meals,bringing him to whatever summer activities he wants seeing as school is over for the time being.
> 5.We take a break together with the boy in October when we would have been on honeymoon.He will have to be removed from school for this but he will still be only seven years old so it should be ok.
> 7.She refuses to allow her friends to come to her home when I am there,also no free visits to her studio.
> I am also telling her to make her own list of conditions as I see I have been playing the victim here.


Just listen to yourself....I see where this is heading. My friend... lists do not work and are tossed the second you get married. Not a quick death but a slow deliberate death.

Ignore the red flags at your peril.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> 5.We take a break together with the boy in October when we would have been on honeymoon.He will have to be removed from school for this but he will still be only seven years old so it should be ok.


Andy, 5 shows you still have a bit of a way to go before you really get the whole kid thing.

Because the child is in school, you can't simply go on vacation in October. As a parent, your schedule is dictated by the local school schedule.

First, most schools have rules about number of days the child is allowed to miss for the year. Where I live, that number is 12. If the child misses more than 12 days, that child does not advance to the next grade level. A two week vacation would be 10 days missed. Now, add in a few missed days because the kid gets sick or has an accident and is injured, etc., you can see how easy it would be to go over days.

Second, academics. Two weeks at the beginning of the school year is too long to be out of class all in one stretch. Usually, the first few weeks of the school year are used to go over what they learned previously, get all the kids in class on the same page, and then the next few weeks they begin to move forward. 

It's easy to fall behind and the kid would still have to make up his classwork and homework. Having to catch up on 2 weeks worth of assignments is not fun. Neither is taking the homework with you and doing it on vacation.

October, being at the beginning of the academic year, is a terrible time to pull a kid from class for anything other than necessity.

If you want to do a family vacation after she's moved and lived on her own a bit, do it around the Christmas holidays when school isn't in session.

Having a kid that you take care of means not being able to get up and go when you want to.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



IMFarAboveRubies said:


> In addition, if she starts staying over, it will be harder to break up.


Or easier.

I highly suspect Andy's older brother made the suggestions he made because he's banking on the togetherness experiment leading to a permanent break up.

Honestly, if they do stop the drinking and start taking care of the boy full time like parents, I think Andy's perception of his intended will undergo a shift and he'll probably walk.

Worst case scenario, I'm wrong and Andy's fiancee really steps up, they get married, and are happy. That is a wrong I can live with! 

We really do hope for the best for you, her, and the boy, Andy.


Just an aside, she's 32? I must have missed it or spaced it. From the descriptions of her behavior, I was thinking she was in her early-mid 20's, lived at home while building a small business, and was just a fledgling. At 32, her behavior becomes much more concerning considering the level of maturity expected at that age.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Andy, 5 shows you still have a bit of a way to go before you really get the whole kid thing.
> 
> Because the child is in school, you can't simply go on vacation in October. As a parent, your schedule is dictated by the local school schedule.
> 
> First, most schools have rules about number of days the child is allowed to miss for the year. Where I live, that number is 12. If the child misses more than 12 days, that child does not advance to the next grade level. A two week vacation would be 10 days missed. Now, add in a few missed days because the kid gets sick or has an accident and is injured, etc., you can see how easy it would be to go over days.
> 
> Second, academics. Two weeks at the beginning of the school year is too long to be out of class all in one stretch. Usually, the first few weeks of the school year are used to go over what they learned previously, get all the kids in class on the same page, and then the next few weeks they begin to move forward.
> 
> It's easy to fall behind and the kid would still have to make up his classwork and homework. Having to catch up on 2 weeks worth of assignments is not fun. Neither is taking the homework with you and doing it on vacation.
> 
> October, being at the beginning of the academic year, is a terrible time to pull a kid from class for anything other than necessity.
> 
> If you want to do a family vacation after she's moved and lived on her own a bit, do it around the Christmas holidays when school isn't in session.
> 
> Having a kid that you take care of means not being able to get up and go when you want to.


At the end of October we have what's called half term,it is one full week off and also the Monday of the following week.So the kid will be missing four days total.He is in a private school.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

We have just taken a time out from our talk but it's not going as planned.I kept my list in my pocket.
My brother texted me and suggested we leave the boy with his grandparents and adopt a#%*%# goldfish as that's about all he would trust us to look after.I think he was joking.
Real charmer my brother...


----------



## 225985

Are you surprised it did not go as planned?

She is not the enemy. If it does not or cannot work out, part as friends. And stay friends. No shouting or fighting, demands or anger. She is either your future wife, a future friend, or a person you will never see again. Stay calm.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We have just taken a time out from our talk but it's not going as planned.


In what way?



Andy1001 said:


> My brother texted me and suggested we leave the boy with his grandparents and adopt a#%*%# goldfish as that's about all he would trust us to look after.I think he was joking.
> Real charmer my brother...


Where he may lack in charm, he likely makes up for in speaking the truth. I was not there, but from the outside looking in, my bet is on half kidding, which is actually like 5% kidding and 95% truth.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Yes, I know, you feel guilty because you told her to shut up. Yes, it was bad. Still, it isn't in the realm of having her friends berating you, allowing it to happen and holding onto the grudge for days. Well, you did what many do here. You latched onto something and went full bore. You ignored people telling you to slow down, calm down and take time. The internet is helpful and full of decent advice. It REALLY sucks at timetables. You BOTH need to calm down and talk when things aren't emotionally charged. Seriously, even if it is her fault, who the heck would want too talk to the person who just canceled a wedding over a tattoo argument? I know it is deeper, but strong emotions make a person think rationally.


Also, you need to really research that diagram, you are not the victim in the drama triangle.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> At the end of October we have what's called half term,it is one full week off and also the Monday of the following week.So the kid will be missing four days total.


4 days isn't so bad, but it isn't so good, either. Again, the idea is the child doesn't miss any school that he doesn't absolutely have to miss.

If you do go with the October plan, make sure his mom remembers to have the teacher(s) prepare a packet of work for him to take with him so that he isn't overwhelmed when he gets back.



Andy1001 said:


> We have just taken a time out from our talk but it's not going as planned.I kept my list in my pocket.
> My brother texted me and suggested we leave the boy with his grandparents and adopt a#%*%# goldfish as that's about all he would trust us to look after.I think he was joking.
> Real charmer my brother...


I think your brother is trying to say he has doubts about the levels of maturity and responsibility being displayed.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I don't know if anyone is still reading about my problems butI find it helpful to write them down anyway.My fiancée came over as planned last night and we sat down beside each other and talked for a long time.She told me she loved me and didn't want to break up and I told her the same.
What she said next shocked me.
She asked me how many times I had cheated on her since we got engaged.I was really pissed at this butI did not shout or even swear when I told her I had never cheated on her since the day we met.She asked me about going to a Bruce Springsteen concert with an old friend of mine called Alison.Ive known Alison almost twelve years and we actually met at a Springsteen gig when she asked me to lift her up om my shoulders to get a photograph of him.Alison rung me in March and my fiancée was there at the time,she said she and her partner Sam were supposed to be going together but Sam had to cancel.Alison is a very pretty,smart,vivacious girl.She is also gay and her partner Sam's full name is Samantha.My fiancée seemed relived especially when I brought up Alison's Facebook page and it was obvious she was in a relationship with Samanth.She asked me why I had never told her Alisonwas gay and I didn't really know,the subject just never came up.Apparently some mutual acquaintance told my fiancée that Alison was very pretty and she was crazy to let me take her to the gig.
My fiancée then asked me did I sleep with one of my female friend's on St Patrick's day.We had been out together early in the day and my fiancée went home early and me and some friends stayed in a bar until late.I swore I had never cheated on her and she said again her friends were telling her she shouldn't leave me with these friends as they are all single and play the field.I could see a pattern emerging here and I asked her is that why we have been going out together more often to bars with her friends and she said she wanted to see how I reacted with them and would I flirt with them.
She then said her biggest fear was that I was going to do a runner like the boys father and she would be left on her own again.She said I was very secretive and she never really knew what I was thinking,also I always kept my phone and laptop password protected as if I didn't trust her.
She asked me if I was willing to let her look through my texts and emails.I was reluctant to do this purely because of the texts from her mother and sisters but I could see it meant a lot to her so I agreed.This is where I took a time out and went out to my car to let her read them.


----------



## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So... you allowed her to flip the script on you. It went from her betraying your trust with trying to force you into a tattoo that you discussed was a deal breaker for you, to her accusing you of openly cheating on her. And, asking you to open your phone and computer to her. She just blame shifted you. She deflected all her guilt to you being guilty of something, and you allowed it. 

OK. Do you have full and open access to all her online accounts? How does anything she just accused you of change what she did to you? She once again told you it was her toxic friends that brought these concerns to her attention. Do you see the same pattern here?

You are still getting played. She has turned her lying and untrustworthiness back onto you, and you fell for it. You need to stop playing into her hand brother.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Palodyne said:


> So... you allowed her to flip the script on you. It went from her betraying your trust with trying to force you into a tattoo that you discussed was a deal breaker for you, to her accusing you of openly cheating on her. And, asking you to open your phone and computer to her. She just blame shifted you. She deflected all her guilt to you being guilty of something, and you allowed it.
> 
> OK. Do you have full and open access to all her online accounts? How does anything she just accused you of change what she did to you? She once again told you it was her toxic friends that brought these concerns to her attention. Do you see the same pattern here?
> 
> You are still getting played. She has turned her lying and untrustworthiness back onto you, and you fell for it. You need to stop playing into her hand brother.


This is just the first part of our talk,it goes on a lot longer but I have to go to work for now.


----------



## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> This is just the first part of our talk,it goes on a lot longer but I have to go to work for now.


 This is just part of it? Ok, update us on the rest when you can.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Palodyne said:


> So... you allowed her to flip the script on you. It went from her betraying your trust with trying to force you into a tattoo that you discussed was a deal breaker for you, to her accusing you of openly cheating on her. And, asking you to open your phone and computer to her. She just blame shifted you. She deflected all her guilt to you being guilty of something, and you allowed it.
> 
> OK. Do you have full and open access to all her online accounts? How does anything she just accused you of change what she did to you? *She once again told you it was her toxic friends that brought these concerns to her attention. Do you see the same pattern here?
> *
> You are still getting played. She has turned her lying and untrustworthiness back onto you, and you fell for it. You need to stop playing into her hand brother.


These 'friends' have to go.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> Just listen to yourself....I see where this is heading. My friend... lists do not work and are tossed the second you get married. Not a quick death but a slow deliberate death.
> 
> Ignore the red flags at your peril.


why can we only "like" this once.

exactly the kind of thing my ex-wife admitted many years later, and also what I've heard from guys who thought their fiance's were "frivilous", that "once we're married, I'll just manage things so that doesn't happen because they're my husband/wife."


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well after sitting in the car for what seemed a long time my fiancée came outside and asked me to come back in.She was crying and trying to talk and it tore me apart not to comfort her and tell her everything was fine and we would just carry on as usual and just forget all the crap she had put me through.I never realised until then how much I loved her but the idea someone could have so much power over me kind of scared me too.
She finally composed herself and we started talking again.She was particularly upset about the texts from her mother and sister but was furious over her "friends"texting me offering to meet and talk.She told me most of her friends like me and some of them have a crush on me.
But she said her friend with the tattoos really hates me and it is all over a comment I made one day about the tramp stamp tattoo she was showing us a picture of.What I said was the reason they are called tramp stamps is the only people who can see them are either having sex with you from behind or looking at your ass and the person wearing it can't see it so they can't say they just liked the design.It probably wasn't the nicest thing to say but I still stick by my opinion.
I decided to let her keep talking and just answer her and then I will have my say.
I asked why she thought I had cheated on her and was that the reason she had started putting me down in public.She said she is insecure with me because if we ever had a major fall out(like now) she will be left as a single mom with nobody to care for her.She also said some of her friends told her that I was out of her league looks wise which is rubbish,she is a stunner.She said she maybe was a stunner years ago but at thirty two with a child her chances of meeting someone who genuinely cares for her and the boy are low.She was really shocked that Alison was gay and said she thought we had been having a friends with benefits relationship for years.The only time Alison ever kissed me was when I told her I was getting engaged.She told me I am very passive and sometimes it drives her up the wall,that I just go with the flow.This is why when I got so mad over the tattoo and left her in the bar she thought I was gone out of her life for good.
She also insisted that I look at her texts and emails,I didn't really want to but I'm glad I did.There was at least a dozen anonymous texts since last Sunday saying I have been seen with different girls in various nightclubs and bars,she had actually got one while I was sitting in the car waiting for her to read my texts.This is one or more of her **** stirring friends causing trouble.
She then said it was time for me to have my say.
I told her it was really rude of her to insult me in front of her friends and employees and for that reason alone I should have broken up with her months ago.I also told her about how she made me feel over the car and the haircut.She accepted what I said but genuinely felt that I had encouraged the buzz cut.She said she remembered us watching a dvd of a Natalie Portman film where she shaved her head and I said it would look hot on her.I remember it differently but her hair grew back anyway.I also brought up some other occasions where I felt she had disrespected me and she agreed that it looks that way but I was always so easygoing that she figured I'd agree with her decision anyway.We started talking about the affect this was having on the boy and she said the atmosphere at home was horrible and she was looking for an apartment to rent because her mom was adamant she was moving out.She is thinking about maybe taking two months off work and letting one of the trainers manage the business and spending the school holidays with the kid,then she is just going to work around his school hours.
I then finally brought up the subject of the tattoo.She said that she never wanted the tattoo but because I got so mad in front of her friends that she wasn't prepared to back down in public.She promised me that she would never get one unless I ask her to so she won't be getting one then
.I told her we needed to discuss her insecurities about me and she said because of the way we met that I could be picking up girls every day.
She had to leave at that stage because her mom will only babysit for a short time but we are meeting today at the local park and we will talk more.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You need to discuss her misplaced sense of pride and stubbornness.

She keeps talking about the symptoms (not backing down), not the cause.

Classic.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> You need to discuss her misplaced sense of pride and stubbornness.
> 
> She keeps talking about the symptoms (not backing down), not the cause.
> 
> Classic.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Yes I see what you mean,thank you for the advice.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Festivus said:


> So I don't necessarily disagree with much of the advice you've received so far, but...
> 
> Someone who won't marry another person because of a tattoo seems extraordinarily rigid to me. As the saying goes, pick the hill you want to die on. Is this it? I don't think it's unreasonable to evaluate our prejudices from time to time to evaluate their real importance.
> 
> I remember telling my wife at 22 to take me out in the back yard and shoot me if I ever drove a mini-van. Well, after two kids, you know the drill. And (damn it) it was a good vehicle.


You didn't have to sleep with the minivan.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I don't know if anyone is still reading about my problems butI find it helpful to write them down anyway.My fiancée came over as planned last night and we sat down beside each other and talked for a long time.She told me she loved me and didn't want to break up and I told her the same.
> What she said next shocked me.
> She asked me how many times I had cheated on her since we got engaged.I was really pissed at this butI did not shout or even swear when I told her I had never cheated on her since the day we met.She asked me about going to a Bruce Springsteen concert with an old friend of mine called Alison.Ive known Alison almost twelve years and we actually met at a Springsteen gig when she asked me to lift her up om my shoulders to get a photograph of him.Alison rung me in March and my fiancée was there at the time,she said she and her partner Sam were supposed to be going together but Sam had to cancel.Alison is a very pretty,smart,vivacious girl.She is also gay and her partner Sam's full name is Samantha.My fiancée seemed relived especially when I brought up Alison's Facebook page and it was obvious she was in a relationship with Samanth.She asked me why I had never told her Alisonwas gay and I didn't really know,the subject just never came up.Apparently some mutual acquaintance told my fiancée that Alison was very pretty and she was crazy to let me take her to the gig.
> My fiancée then asked me did I sleep with one of my female friend's on St Patrick's day.We had been out together early in the day and my fiancée went home early and me and some friends stayed in a bar until late.I swore I had never cheated on her and she said again her friends were telling her she shouldn't leave me with these friends as they are all single and play the field.I could see a pattern emerging here and I asked her is that why we have been going out together more often to bars with her friends and she said she wanted to see how I reacted with them and would I flirt with them.
> She then said her biggest fear was that I was going to do a runner like the boys father and she would be left on her own again.She said I was very secretive and she never really knew what I was thinking,also I always kept my phone and laptop password protected as if I didn't trust her.
> She asked me if I was willing to let her look through my texts and emails.I was reluctant to do this purely because of the texts from her mother and sisters but I could see it meant a lot to her so I agreed.This is where I took a time out and went out to my car to let her read them.


None of this is good. She IS blame-shifting, and she is saying that her perception of YOUR trustworthiness is behind her lame childish behavior. In your later post you say she was upset about the text from her mother and sister. She's been busted by the whole family and she knows it and the wagons are circling, not in her support, but in support of her growing up. 

So she IS going to get an apartment, and she already had plans for the school holiday with her son. So in a way she sees the handwriting on the wall and is making plans to be more involved with her son. 

I just have some concern that she's grasping on to you because as you pointed out, she feels at 32 and as a single mum, she won't have many chances. That's probably crap. But here's a newsflash. That does NOT obligate YOU to be in this relationship. Don't be a Knight in Shining Armor. Please. You can do so much better (after a little introspection on how easily you can manipulated by women like this).


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> Good luck - I'd suggest starting with an IC and a gym membership and work from there. You dont need to settle for this bullsh!t...


I all ready go to a gym.
Her#%*#% gym.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> "Cat tat" lol:grin2:
> 
> Unlike a lot of others, I say a lot of this really IS about tattoos. God, I HATE them. Smeary, black-blue stains, or a chaotic, colored mess covering someones entire limb. How do you improve on clear, clean human skin? Answer: you can't. Too bad there wasn't a "tat" that lasted 3 months. After about 3 months, I bet most people wished they hadn't gotten one; but they don't admit it, 'cause they have to save face.
> 
> *32 years old? Like MJJean, I thought she was 23ish. * Wow, so the bloom is off the rose. Look, Andy, you said you are described as handsome, so what's to stop you getting another really pretty girl? *But, please, DON'T go into relationships for looks alone.*
> 
> *Boy oh boy, her mom and dad saw you coming and couldn't believe their good luck. They were finally getting her off their hands, and no more babysitting for them. Yippee!!*
> 
> *And your gf. actually told you that she wanted to keep you because she doesn't think she can get anyone else at 32, when she's got a kid. That's called "settling". Don't be the schmuck that was "settled" for. If you're young, childless, and decent and kind; you don't have to settle.*
> 
> *Try being away from her for a few months. I bet you survive just fine. And remember, "a person is known by the company they keep"; some of her friends are real doozies.*
> 
> Run for the hills. You got lucky and found out what she is like in time.


I could not agree more. THIS is REALLY important. You are a mirror image of my h and he settled, and OW got a catch and the ******* family couldn't wait to unload the sister/daughter. 

You could do so much better.


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I don't know if anyone is still reading about my problems butI find it helpful to write them down anyway.My fiancée came over as planned last night and we sat down beside each other and talked for a long time.She told me she loved me and didn't want to break up and I told her the same.
> What she said next shocked me.
> She asked me how many times I had cheated on her since we got engaged.I was really pissed at this butI did not shout or even swear when I told her I had never cheated on her since the day we met.She asked me about going to a Bruce Springsteen concert with an old friend of mine called Alison.Ive known Alison almost twelve years and we actually met at a Springsteen gig when she asked me to lift her up om my shoulders to get a photograph of him.Alison rung me in March and my fiancée was there at the time,she said she and her partner Sam were supposed to be going together but Sam had to cancel.Alison is a very pretty,smart,vivacious girl.She is also gay and her partner Sam's full name is Samantha.My fiancée seemed relived especially when I brought up Alison's Facebook page and it was obvious she was in a relationship with Samanth.She asked me why I had never told her Alisonwas gay and I didn't really know,the subject just never came up.Apparently some mutual acquaintance told my fiancée that Alison was very pretty and she was crazy to let me take her to the gig.
> My fiancée then asked me did I sleep with one of my female friend's on St Patrick's day.We had been out together early in the day and my fiancée went home early and me and some friends stayed in a bar until late.I swore I had never cheated on her and she said again her friends were telling her she shouldn't leave me with these friends as they are all single and play the field.I could see a pattern emerging here and I asked her is that why we have been going out together more often to bars with her friends and she said she wanted to see how I reacted with them and would I flirt with them.
> She then said her biggest fear was that I was going to do a runner like the boys father and she would be left on her own again.She said I was very secretive and she never really knew what I was thinking,also I always kept my phone and laptop password protected as if I didn't trust her.
> She asked me if I was willing to let her look through my texts and emails.I was reluctant to do this purely because of the texts from her mother and sisters but I could see it meant a lot to her so I agreed.This is where I took a time out and went out to my car to let her read them.


What a load of bullsh*t.

Did you think to ask her how many times _she_ has cheated on _you_? If not, do so the next time that you see her.

Don't do it over the phone -- you need to be able to see the look on her face when you ask her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GusPolinski said:


> What a load of bullsh*t.
> 
> Did you think to ask her how many times _she_ has cheated on _you_? If not, do so the next time that you see her.
> 
> Don't do it over the phone -- you need to be able to see the look on her face when you ask her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


THIS! :iagree::iagree::iagree:

My immEDIATE gut reaction/response when I read that post was, she's projecting.

And it may be that she's turning the narrative because when you walked out of the bar and left her, she finally saw a guy who could mean business.


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



notmyrealname4 said:


> "Cat tat" lol:grin2:


It's a cattoo!

:lol: :rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

And @Andy1001...

Your tramp stamp comment was hilarious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If you stay with her the friends really must go.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

TBH, reading this, it is a little weird that two grown adults need to meet up in the car and parks to talk about their relationship


----------



## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Gyms are hotbeds for affairs in general. Couple that with the fact that a gym is your wife's workplace, her looks, her personality, and her employees love drama, this all spells trouble down the road. Anytime your wife needs a little boost because she's bored or not feeling sexy, there will be plenty of young, hot, dynamic people around her to give her what she needs. It's like she's living a real-life soap opera.

This doesn't mean that she will necessarily have an affair or that everyone who works at a gym has affairs. Rather, it's that there are more temptations there than in other places. For someone who has a weak character, it may be too much temptation. It would be like an alcoholic owning a bar and trying to stay sober. It can be done, but it highly depends on the character of the person.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



EllisRedding said:


> TBH, reading this, it is a little weird that two grown adults need to meet up in the car and parks to talk about their relationship


We are meeting in the park so we can bring her son along.I went out to the car to leave her alone to read my texts.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GusPolinski said:


> What a load of bullsh*t.
> 
> Did you think to ask her how many times _she_ has cheated on _you_? If not, do so the next time that you see her.
> 
> Don't do it over the phone -- you need to be able to see the look on her face when you ask her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Looking back over my post I realise I left that part out.Of course I asked her had she cheated,I'm not that ****** stupid.She swore that she has never cheated and I believe her.I can't say the thought never crossed my mind but I have to believe she didn't.As it stands her toxic friends would be delighted to tell me if anything happened and we split up.


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



EllisRedding said:


> TBH, reading this, it is a little weird that two grown adults need to meet up in the car and parks to talk about their relationship


Hey man. Be cool.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If you were already married we would suggest marriage counseling. Why not do 2-3 sessions with a counselor that specializes in pre-marriage to see if you two are compatible.

You both have issues to self-explore.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> If you stay with her the friends really must go.


Maybe. The friends might be toxic, but so might anonymous internet posters (myself included) telling OP that his fiancee is cheating on him, or just looking for a father for her son, or a babysitter etc. 

IMO a very attractive business owner single mom with one son can indeed find great guys to marry her, but maybe not as good looking as OP. 

OP, have you posted why you want to marry this woman, rather than post reasons not to?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Maybe. The friends might be toxic, but so might anonymous internet posters (myself included) telling OP that his fiancee is cheating on him, or just looking for a father for her son, or a babysitter etc.
> 
> IMO a very attractive business owner single mom with one son can indeed find great guys to marry her, but maybe not as good looking as OP.
> 
> OP, have you posted why you want to marry this woman, rather than post reasons not to?


I love her first of all because she is one of the kindest generous loving people I have ever met.(normally)
When I am with her the world is a better place.
Even with all the crap going on I still want her with me.
I was being truthful last night when I said her crying tore me apart.
She may not think it but to me she is truly beautiful.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> If you were already married we would suggest marriage counseling. Why not do 2-3 sessions with a counselor that specializes in pre-marriage to see if you two are compatible.
> 
> You both have issues to self-explore.


My sister in law rung me and suggested the same thing or maybe taking a break from all this and let my fiancée sort out her family life without me in the picture.
She said my brother is really worried about me despite him calling me a ****** idiot at every opportunity.Im not convinced about that though
.She asked me did I remember the last thing she said to me after I stayed with them almost thirteen years ago.
She told me my face was going to get me into trouble if I didn't start to understand girls better.What had happened was my niece who was fourteen used to have friends over every night and it turned out most of them had schoolgirl crushes on me.They were bribing my niece to let them come over.When my brother found out he hit the roof but I was totally in the dark.I left soon after anyway and I swear I never once realised until my niece told me years later.Her point is that I may be sending out the wrong signals to some of my fiancées friends and that my fiancée sees it but I don't.
Anyway she wants me to visit them in London and stay for as long as I like,she thinks it's time me and my brother spent time together without any kids around and maybe we can be a family again.I can do my job anywhere there is an Internet connection so maybe a couple of weeks away might be a good idea.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My sister in law rung me and suggested the same thing or maybe taking a break from all this and let my fiancée sort out her family life without me in the picture.
> She said my brother is really worried about me despite him calling me a ****** idiot at every opportunity.Im not convinced about that though
> .She asked me did I remember the last thing she said to me after I stayed with them almost thirteen years ago.
> She told me my face was going to get me into trouble if I didn't start to understand girls better.What had happened was my niece who was fourteen used to have friends over every night and it turned out most of them had schoolgirl crushes on me.They were bribing my niece to let them come over.When my brother found out he hit the roof but I was totally in the dark.I left soon after anyway and I swear I never once realised until my niece told me years later.Her point is that I may be sending out the wrong signals to some of my fiancées friends and that my fiancée sees it but I don't.
> Anyway she wants me to visit them in London and stay for as long as I like,she thinks it's time me and my brother spent time together without any kids around and maybe we can be a family again.I can do my job anywhere there is an Internet connection so maybe a couple of weeks away might be a good idea.



Brilliant idea.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> If you were already married we would suggest marriage counseling. Why not do 2-3 sessions with a counselor that specializes in pre-marriage to see if you two are compatible.
> 
> You both have issues to self-explore.


Suggested by a few posters already and shot down by a few as well.

He needs to go get his KISA from the drama triangle addressed.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> IMO a very attractive business owner single mom with one son can indeed find great guys to marry her, but maybe not as good looking as OP.


Actually, in her target age range, most men would expect a lot more of her than Andy does.

I can't think of very many men who would consider marrying a woman with a child that she frequently leaves with relatives, who still lives at home, who has a herd of toxic friends, who's parents and siblings are all up in her business, and who has this much bullsh!t and drama going on in her own head.

Sure, a lot of guys would hit it and quit it, but marry? Not if what's been posted here is accurate.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Maybe. The friends might be toxic, but so might anonymous internet posters (myself included) telling OP that his fiancee is cheating on him, or just looking for a father for her son, or a babysitter etc.


I waited a few hours to make sure I wasn't going to be an ass.


You should really go back and read this thread again. There is no "maybe" or "might" about her toxic friends:
They egged her on to get the tattoo.
They browbeat him in the process.
They are texting him to "talk" when the wedding was called off.
Their biggest fight happens after conversations with these friends.
The same friends saying he is going to cheat.
The same friends telling her who she should let him hangout with by himself.


As to putting posters in the same context as the toxic friends? Not in this thread. No.

"Maybe" and "might" only applies to the posters comments in your head. The cheating was brought up because SHE accused him of cheating with two different people. Then she lays the password guilt trip on him and HE lets her read his text. All because SHE let her friends create a fight and she is prideful. So, of course people are going to say "Hmmm.... is she projecting." She screwed up, held a grudge, punished him and turned it into he is now a possible cheater. She took the victim role and even manipulated him so well, he came here saying he now "sees" he is playing the victim. She still lives at home and her parents watch the kid while they party. Yet, you are trying to imply we are in the same spot as the toxic friends. No toxicity, people are showing him red flags.


----------



## Voltaire2013

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GusPolinski said:


> Hey man. Be cool.


Not to thread jack, but man I lurve that commercial. Every time.

Cheers,
V(13)
Certainly on the leave side of the fence, though pics could sway me. :grin2:


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Actually, in her target age range, most men would expect a lot more of her than Andy does.
> 
> I can't think of very many men who would consider marrying a woman with a child that she frequently leaves with relatives, who still lives at home, who has a herd of toxic friends, who's parents and siblings are all up in her business, and who has this much bullsh!t and drama going on in her own head.
> 
> Sure, a lot of guys would hit it and quit it, but marry? Not if what's been posted here is accurate.


I really appreciate your advice all through this thread.If you are not a professional counsellor or something similar it is surprising.
When we met last evening my fiancée again brought up Alison.She really can't believe there has never been anything sexual between us.I actually rang Alison and put her on the phone with my F.They chatted for a while and actually had a few laughs as well.Alison lives about eighty miles away but she has said she will drive over on Sunday afternoon for a visit,Sam is a nurse and will be working anyway.
We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.
She asked me to look at some apartments with her on Monday,since the colleges closed for summer there is plenty available.The atmosphere has not improved at her home,she feels betrayed that her mom and sister supported me in this situation.This sort of worries me as she still feels she was (mostly) in the right.
We cut our walk short because it started to rain and brought the boy to McDonald's Then we went back to my house and they both stayed the night.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I really appreciate your advice all through this thread.If you are not a professional counsellor or something similar it is surprising.
> When we met last evening my fiancée again brought up Alison.She really can't believe there has never been anything sexual between us.I actually rang Alison and put her on the phone with my F.They chatted for a while and actually had a few laughs as well.Alison lives about eighty miles away but she has said she will drive over on Sunday afternoon for a visit,Sam is a nurse and will be working anyway.
> We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.
> She asked me to look at some apartments with her on Monday,since the colleges closed for summer there is plenty available.The atmosphere has not improved at her home,she feels betrayed that her mom and sister supported me in this situation.*This sort of worries me as she still feels she was (mostly) in the right.
> *We cut our walk short because it started to rain and brought the boy to McDonald's Then we went back to my house and they both stayed the night.


Does it worry you that she may be just appearing to change now but will revert to her old form once you are married?

If that is a true concern for you, figure it out before the wedding, when ever that will be.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> Does it worry you that she may be just appearing to change now but will revert to her old form once you are married?
> 
> If that is a true concern for you, figure it out before the wedding, when ever that will be.


Yes it does worry me,a lot.I always take people at face value and I know that is a flaw in my character and I have being fooled in the past.
However I really think she is starting to grow up and realises that she needs to get rid of these hangers on.I have to admit I was very happy that she stayed with me last night.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If she were growing up as you say, she would be humble enough to know her family was trying to help her, not trying to hurt her, by taking yous side.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I really appreciate your advice all through this thread.If you are not a professional counsellor or something similar it is surprising.
> When we met last evening my fiancée again brought up Alison.She really can't believe there has never been anything sexual between us.I actually rang Alison and put her on the phone with my F.They chatted for a while and actually had a few laughs as well.Alison lives about eighty miles away but she has said she will drive over on Sunday afternoon for a visit,Sam is a nurse and will be working anyway.
> We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.
> She asked me to look at some apartments with her on Monday,since the colleges closed for summer there is plenty available.*The atmosphere has not improved at her home,she feels betrayed that her mom and sister supported me in this situation.This sort of worries me as she still feels she was (mostly) in the right.*
> We cut our walk short because it started to rain and brought the boy to McDonald's Then we went back to my house and they both stayed the night.


I'm glad you're alert to this. It is not a good sign. Her family may have, at times, been supportive of the father of her child, and maybe she didn't like it, and that's why he did a runner. 

It should also be concerning, I think, that she's beating the "you cheated with Allison" drum.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> I'm glad you're alert to this. It is not a good sign. Her family may have, at times, been supportive of the father of her child, and maybe she didn't like it, and that's why he did a runner.
> 
> *It should also be concerning, I think, that she's beating the "you cheated with Allison" drum*.



No doubt that's what's happening. I wonder why it is?

Projection? 

Another worry.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I probably should explain about Alison.As I said I met her at a Springsteen concert and got talking with her after the show.It turned out we both had tickets for the following night also so we decided to go together.After the second show we went for a drink and got talking.
She told me straight away that she was gay but had not "came out"to her family who were very religious.We started going to gigs together and sometimes stayed in hostels or cheap bed and breakfasts together.Again I swear nothing ever happened sexually we really were just good friends.It suited Ally to have me with her because guys weren't hitting on her and strangely I never had as many girls hitting on me,it seems when women see a guy with a beautiful woman they figure he must have something to offer and they want it.Im probably wrong about that but that's how it seemed to be.We actually went to London and stayed with my brother when Ally got four tickets for another Springsteen gig and my brother and sil came with us.My Sister in law guessed straight away that Ally was gay,I don't know how and they had some long private talks about Ally "coming out"to her parents.We ended up sharing a house with Sam when she qualified as a nurse and it was probably the most fun time I ever had,they took delight in setting me up with other girls and I think they looked on me as a big brother.When Sam moved to another hospital Ally moved with her and I bought the house which I still live in.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001, WE all get that. We know it is possible to have a great friendship with Ally without any risk for your relationship with your fiancee, but I think some of us are puzzled about the fact that, if it is SO obvious to your SIL and to others around you that Ally is gay and there's nothing more than a great platonic friendship, why doesn't your fiancee believe you? I guess you'll see if she can accept the friendship and settle down about it when Ally comes to spend some time with both of you, but the larger issue is, why your fiancee seems to be so concerned and worried and so willing to assume there's more to the relationship with Ally than you say. You can tell HER this history and it doesn't seem to allay her fears. 

It is very common for someone who is insecure or who may be open to other relationships to blame the partner for doing the same (or to accuse the partner of doing/being the same). 

So you guys have had two long talks; your fiancee wanted to see your phone - texts, emails, calls - to allay her fears that you were cheating (maybe she thought you hooked up with someone else after you left the bar and left her standing there drooling about her tattoo), and after a couple of talks, the next time you get together, two things happen: she still wants to know about your relationship with Ally because she fears you're cheating or two-timing, and she insists she was right about the bar fracas and the whole tattoo thing. 

She's not REALLY responding to you, Andy. That's the point. She's not really hearing that you're in a friendship with Ally, period, and she's not acknowledging that the tattoo episode in the bar demonstrates how she is willing to cross boundaries and break agreements. It's not about the tattoo . . . it's about her doing whatever she wants and expecting to be told she's right to do it!


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> @Andy1001, WE all get that. We know it is possible to have a great friendship with Ally without any risk for your relationship with your fiancee, but I think some of us are puzzled about the fact that, if it is SO obvious to your SIL and to others around you that Ally is gay and there's nothing more than a great platonic friendship, why doesn't your fiancee believe you? I guess you'll see if she can accept the friendship and settle down about it when Ally comes to spend some time with both of you, but the larger issue is, why your fiancee seems to be so concerned and worried and so willing to assume there's more to the relationship with Ally than you say. You can tell HER this history and it doesn't seem to allay her fears.
> 
> It is very common for someone who is insecure or who may be open to other relationships to blame the partner for doing the same (or to accuse the partner of doing/being the same).
> 
> So you guys have had two long talks; your fiancee wanted to see your phone - texts, emails, calls - to allay her fears that you were cheating (maybe she thought you hooked up with someone else after you left the bar and left her standing there drooling about her tattoo), and after a couple of talks, the next time you get together, two things happen: she still wants to know about your relationship with Ally because she fears you're cheating or two-timing, and she insists she was right about the bar fracas and the whole tattoo thing.
> 
> She's not REALLY responding to you, Andy. That's the point. She's not really hearing that you're in a friendship with Ally, period, and she's not acknowledging that the tattoo episode in the bar demonstrates how she is willing to cross boundaries and break agreements. It's not about the tattoo . . . it's about her doing whatever she wants and expecting to be told she's right to do it!


Thanks for the advice.I should point out that most of the people in the area did not know Ally and Sam were a couple,it was only when they moved to a new city that they lived openly in a gay relationship.Also I'm not sure if it is relevant but Ally and me shared a house for over three years.Ally is here now and also Sam,she switched shifts at the hospital so I can't really say much more for the moment.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She was sort of betrayed, but this would be a red flag for me. Personally, I'd be on the way out. All your talks are centering around YOUR actions which, are not related to the incident or previous ones. Did you ask her if the family members said the same things to her?

Good luck dude, this sounds more and more like a nightmare. Still, a KISA loves drama.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and* said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.*She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.


She sounds like a person who is easily influenced or manipulated by others. Not necessarily a character flaw (JMHO) but is the way she is. It would explain a lot. Other posters would know better if that is because of low self esteem (her worry about your relationship with Ally) or something else. Can she change on that? IDK.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I was buying a new car and it was an estate(station wagon) model but she insisted on me getting a sporty model instead.A couple of months later she said I was crazy to buy it.She asked me once did I think a buzz cut would suit her and I said no,she got one anyway and even though I thought it looked great she cried her eyes out and told her friends that I convinced her to get it and like a fool I went along with it.


Yikes! Your "girlfriend" is nuts. She is all over the place.
Even if she was a model 10 beauty, I'd dump her. She's already sucking the life out of you. ugh.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> She sounds like a person who is easily influenced or manipulated by others. Not necessarily a character flaw (JMHO) but is the way she is. It would explain a lot. Other posters would know better if that is because of low self esteem (her worry about your relationship with Ally) or something else. Can she change on that? IDK.


What I see is someone who is easily influenced, not manipulated so much, to accept the perceptions or her friends, and not able to exercise her own discernment of a situation. She maybe overly emotional and feeling and easily led by what others say about a situation, which is unfortunate because the consequences of a situation or her choices don't affect them. That would still also support my sense that she finds structure outside of herself, such as her Mom getting on to her about screwing things up that day in the bar with Andy. Instead of being able to see how her feelings led her to be so silly in the bar about the tattoo risked her relationship with Andy (that is, finding herself in a position where she's not thinking but feeling and reacting to the silliness of her friends) she either has little confidence in her ability to size up a situation and make a decision on her own, or she just hasn't developed the ability to think for herself about the consequences of acting on her feelings. And if her parents have protected her, she may not have experienced much in the way of consequences for acting on her feelings. Her dad offering to pay to remove the tattoo is a case in point.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We are together five years,if I told you how we met you would not believe it.Until last Sunday I have never called my fiancée out on her behaviour.


Tell us how you meet.... nothing to be ashamed of, and its not like we KNOW who you are. 

Communication is #1 in a relationship.

I'll post some books I've bought that may help you... not now, but later. I've been very sick and hospitalized recently.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I really appreciate your advice all through this thread.If you are not a professional counsellor or something similar it is surprising.
> When we met last evening my fiancée again brought up Alison.She really can't believe there has never been anything sexual between us.I actually rang Alison and put her on the phone with my F.They chatted for a while and actually had a few laughs as well.Alison lives about eighty miles away but she has said she will drive over on Sunday afternoon for a visit,Sam is a nurse and will be working anyway.
> We then started talking about her friends and I said her tattooed friend will have to stay away.She was okay about this and said she had already told some of her so called friends to stay away from her studio unless they were paying customers,some of them just came in and joined classes or used equipment without paying.She also said that her employees who had came on to me were not going to be working for her for much longer.
> She asked me to look at some apartments with her on Monday,since the colleges closed for summer there is plenty available.The atmosphere has not improved at her home,she feels betrayed that her mom and sister supported me in this situation.This sort of worries me as she still feels she was (mostly) in the right.
> We cut our walk short because it started to rain and brought the boy to McDonald's Then we went back to my house and they both stayed the night.


As others have said, she' deflecting blame for her bad behavior onto you. And you're letting her do it. Not good. She's a grown adult and a mother, too. She needs to accept responsibility for her actions AND her behavior.

I have a feeling the atmosphere at home will only improve if she either A) moves out this summer or B) announces the wedding is back on and she'll be leaving in October. Taking a shot in the dark, I'd bet they all thought she'd grow up eventually. It must just be a phase. Maybe she's just a late bloomer in the maturity dept. And years passed with little to no change. Now, they've gotten frustrated with her and want her to get her sh!t straight.

If you're going to stay with her, you've got to make her responsible for her own actions. No excuses. No blame on anything or anyone else.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> As others have said, she' deflecting blame for her bad behavior onto you. And you're letting her do it. Not good. She's a grown adult and a mother, too. She needs to accept responsibility for her actions AND her behavior.
> 
> I have a feeling the atmosphere at home will only improve if she either A) moves out this summer or B) announces the wedding is back on and she'll be leaving in October. Taking a shot in the dark, I'd bet they all thought she'd grow up eventually. It must just be a phase. Maybe she's just a late bloomer in the maturity dept. And years passed with little to no change. Now, they've gotten frustrated with her and want her to get her sh!t straight.
> 
> If you're going to stay with her, you've got to make her responsible for her own actions. No excuses. No blame on anything or anyone else.


We had a long talk yesterday and I will try and get my head around and post it later.One thing did strike me as strange,Sam asked me did I not think it strange thatI have no close male friends,just colleagues and all my closest friends are female.
I never gave it much thought.When I was growing up I had lots of male friends but once I got into my twenties they seem to have drifted away.
Sam is studying to be an addiction counsellor as well as working a full time job so her and Ally's time together is precious and I really appreciate them coming over to see me,but we kind of argued yesterday and I feel bad about it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> Tell us how you meet.... nothing to be ashamed of, and its not like we KNOW who you are.
> 
> Communication is #1 in a relationship.
> 
> I'll post some books I've bought that may help you... not now, but later. I've been very sick and hospitalized recently.


It's a long story and you would think I was bull****ting you.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Something very funny happened this afternoon which completely slipped my mind.One of her mouthy friends texted me ~~ What was funny though was this friend said if things don't work out for me and my fiancée to give her a call if I wanted to talk"or something"
> She is one of the main **** stirrers and now she wants to come to my house to "talk or something". Honestly if this woman was on fire I wouldn't piss on her to put it out.


See, you have more value than you think. Women (and men) do like a stable partner. Perhaps you should have this "friend" come by and record the conversation (don't let it actually go anywhere) and then playback to your fiancee. Overall, it seems like the whole group is nothing but toxic skanks and drunken party girls. Mind you, I like respectful ****s. Not people who play games with others.

I've just finished page 9. So my response adds to others AT THIS POINT.
1 - WTF?! She's not actually taking care of her son. So neither of YOU TWO know what its like taking care of a child and plans for long term upbringing. Its like you both get to play "parents" a few hours a week (maybe she plays "mom" a few days a week).

2 - Childless couple to Family unit totally changes your "home" dynamics. Childless = going out ANYTIME you or both of you want. Midnight bowling? Road trip over the weekend? Getting drunk til and 2am, coming home and having sex on the front yard. Buying nice clothes, sporty cars, etc. Change that to crying, diapers (when you get her or another woman pregnant), buying clothes for the next 18 years - constantly. My 2y old has far more NEW clothes than me. Your diet changes. Going out to the gym gets harder. Mini vans are functional. School schedule, school functions, etc. You cannot be going out and party when you have kids.

3 - I've seen a bit of stupid reality teen-mama shows and young women in real life that I have meet or know (17~20) who think its COOL and great to have a baby or plan to, and yet they have PARTY on their brains. Its like ARE YOU F-n CRAZY?! You're too immature and stupid to take care of a child! Man they get pissed when the child messes up their "life" of fun.

*4 - by ALL means, people with kids - SHOULD go out on dates weekly, if not at least bi-weekly for sanity.*

As stated above, she should live by herself with child for 6 months or so, MOM can take care of child During biz. hours. Then, if you stay with her - you MOVE in for 6 months and see if you like her as a REAL world mom and yourself being a real-world father. Note, child will bond with you - so you're taking a chance hurting an innocent one.

As much crap that my wayward wife did to me and our son, she never wanted her family to take care of our son for Her. She's getting her crap together and is being a better mom by the week. Planning our future with our kid and how we're going to raise him - is a gift and worthwhile feeling. She started having *US* to stop cursing around him because he'll repeat it. Sure him saying F-word sounds cute, but its not used properly and not healthy for him. It reflect badly on us as parents. Her doing this, scored points with me.



> Yeah I think I just got a little excited at seeing her again,she is seriously hot.I never even thought about the tattoo so she might have already got it for all I know.Thats my problem when I see things from afar I am sensible enough but once she is beside me common sense seems to leave.


Think with your brain, not with your penis. But its understandable... She won't always be HOT.
I think my "wife" is very sexy, she is still about 105lbs at 31yrs old. She's obviously NO longer 22 years old. Sure I'd like to bang hot young tail whenever I want, but I'd like to be with someone I LOVE beyond their looks and younger age. And talking with most 20-something women is... meh. We all get old.

I have another 7 pages to read and catch up on.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Truthseeker1 said:


> Then perhaps she shouldn't drink...


 My Wayward has been sober for 4 months. I'm still amazed, shocked, proud and happy of her improvements.

My drinking has gone down too, not so much I have a drinking problem, but as support for her. I have other things to do, than drink at the moment.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> See, you have more value than you think. Women (and men) do like a stable partner. Perhaps you should have this "friend" come by and record the conversation (don't let it actually go anywhere) and then playback to your fiancee. Overall, it seems like the whole group is nothing but toxic skanks and drunken party girls. Mind you, I like respectful ****s. Not people who play games with others.
> 
> I've just finished page 9. So my response adds to others AT THIS POINT.
> 1 - WTF?! She's not actually taking care of her son. So neither of YOU TWO know what its like taking care of a child and plans for long term upbringing. Its like you both get to play "parents" a few hours a week (maybe she plays "mom" a few days a week).
> 
> 2 - Childless couple to Family unit totally changes your "home" dynamics. Childless = going out ANYTIME you or both of you want. Midnight bowling? Road trip over the weekend? Getting drunk til and 2am, coming home and having sex on the front yard. Buying nice clothes, sporty cars, etc. Change that to crying, diapers (when you get her or another woman pregnant), buying clothes for the next 18 years - constantly. My 2y old has far more NEW clothes than me. Your diet changes. Going out to the gym gets harder. Mini vans are functional. School schedule, school functions, etc. You cannot be going out and party when you have kids.
> 
> 3 - I've seen a bit of stupid reality teen-mama shows and young women in real life that I have meet or know (17~20) who think its COOL and great to have a baby or plan to, and yet they have PARTY on their brains. Its like ARE YOU F-n CRAZY?! You're too immature and stupid to take care of a child! Man they get pissed when the child messes up their "life" of fun.
> 
> *4 - by ALL means, people with kids - SHOULD go out on dates weekly, if not at least bi-weekly for sanity.*
> 
> As stated above, she should live by herself with child for 6 months or so, MOM can take care of child During biz. hours. Then, if you stay with her - you MOVE in for 6 months and see if you like her as a REAL world mom and yourself being a real-world father. Note, child will bond with you - so you're taking a chance hurting an innocent one.
> 
> As much crap that my wayward wife did to me and our son, she never wanted her family to take care of our son for Her. She's getting her crap together and is being a better mom by the week. Planning our future with our kid and how we're going to raise him - is a gift and worthwhile feeling. She started having *US* to stop cursing around him because he'll repeat it. Sure him saying F-word sounds cute, but its not used properly and not healthy for him. It reflect badly on us as parents. Her doing this, scored points with me.
> 
> 
> Think with your brain, not with your penis. But its understandable... She won't always be HOT.
> I think my "wife" is very sexy, she is still about 105lbs at 31yrs old. She's obviously NO longer 22 years old. Sure I'd like to bang hot young tail whenever I want, but I'd like to be with someone I LOVE beyond their looks and younger age. And talking with most 20-something women is... meh. We all get old.
> 
> I have another 7 pages to read and catch up on.


Thanks for taking the time to read about my problems.It seems that you have been through the wringer yourself and I hope you come out of it ok.
If you still want to know about how I met my fiancé and why she is insecure about it I will post it,but it is a long story and even I sometimes can't believe it.
Once again thank you for taking an interest in my problems and the very best of luck to you.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It's a long story and you would think I was bull****ting you.


 Nope. Why would we think you were bSing me? A 5 min read isn't long.

How I meet my wife:
I was in my favorite club for about a minute, I ordered a drink from my bartender, turned around with there was a tug at my arm. She looked at me cute, and I said "hi" and bought her a drink. We danced that night and were having sex 3-4 hours later after "hi". Married about 3 months after we meet.

She had been shy and knew of me for months, but saw me with other women all the time and in social circles she wasn't apart of. We're still growing together and learning about each other. 

I won't get into the kinky details.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Finally caught up.

People who WANT to change, can change some aspects of themselves. You CAN adjust behavior, but you cannot fix someone's personality. After reading everything, somethings sound BETTER (like her moving out) and somethings bad. Glad you didn't go over your list, your relationship with her would likely be dead by now. Seriously, you don't take kids out of school. First of all, BOTH of your need to seek couples counseling / therapy or whatever you call it - if YOU both want to have a future together. I'm in my mid 40s, wife is 31. We are both working on ourselves and each other. Its been painful and we were on a course for failure. We both have desires to be better people, its going to take a year at least to know how successful we are. Our child is a factor for our desire to work together. We both have flaws we couldn't see before. I love her, and she seems to show that she really loves me. If things work out, the three of us win.

#2: A lot of good advice by people who know more than me, here. You'll know more than anyone else here, what may work for you and your relationship. What you have now, seems like a toxic mess. What her friends are doing, is typical. They are stupid and controlling, they are concerned with THEIR needs, not your fiancee or yours. You are an enemy to some of them (Tat friend) so you are a threat. As your Sis In Law says, YOU DON'T understand women (Most of us guys will never reach master status in that world) - I too was/am like that, especially when younger when I was oblivious of women and young women trying to get my attention while ALSO, some women thinking I am interested in them, when I don't.

#3: Real long term relationships require work, dedication, communication, respect, trust, etc. Her thinking you have been cheating on her for a LONG time - is a problem. Either she has cheated on you or she is very insecure. My wife was very insecure with me and played a part in her cheating on me. Insecure women are likely to cheat, they are targeted by wolves out there. The Gym is a hotbed for cheating, as stated.

#4: Toxic friends and/or family are deadly. Tat friend and the others hitting on you ARE enemies of your relationship. If her friend "B" is telling your fiancee about you CHEATING, yet is hitting on you - there is you answer as to why. They are not HER friends, they are leaches.

#5: books I recommend you reading: “Love Triangles ~ seven steps to break the secrets ties that poison love” by Dr. Bonnie Jacobson (this is a Karpman drama triangle book and how it effects your life) and “Not Just Friends” by Shirley Glass.* And check out a book or two from the library on co-dependency (both of you seem to are issues in this area). * Not Just friends, not saying either of YOU cheated. But its a great book for helping to protect your current or future relationships. Dr. Shirley Glass - About the Book - NOT "Just Friends"

You both can benefit from personal (individual) therapy as well.

PS: Her child should be in day-care, with her parents or sisters "babysitting" 1-3 times a month when you both go out on date-night. If the Gym is her biz, maybe she could put in a small "child center" which allows her and her clients to bring in kids during their work-outs. Most gyms in the USA have this, and I make use of it with my toddler.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> @Andy1001, WE all get that. We know it is possible to have a great friendship with Ally without any risk for your relationship with your fiancee, but I think some of us are puzzled about the fact that, if it is SO obvious to your SIL and to others around you that Ally is gay and there's nothing more than a great platonic friendship, why doesn't your fiancee believe you? I guess you'll see if she can accept the friendship and settle down about it when Ally comes to spend some time with both of you, but the larger issue is, why your fiancee seems to be so concerned and worried and so willing to assume there's more to the relationship with Ally than you say. You can tell HER this history and it doesn't seem to allay her fears.
> 
> It is very common for someone who is insecure or who may be open to other relationships to blame the partner for doing the same (or to accuse the partner of doing/being the same).
> 
> So you guys have had two long talks; your fiancee wanted to see your phone - texts, emails, calls - to allay her fears that you were cheating (maybe she thought you hooked up with someone else after you left the bar and left her standing there drooling about her tattoo), and after a couple of talks, the next time you get together, two things happen: she still wants to know about your relationship with Ally because she fears you're cheating or two-timing, and she insists she was right about the bar fracas and the whole tattoo thing.
> 
> She's not REALLY responding to you, Andy. That's the point. She's not really hearing that you're in a friendship with Ally, period, and she's not acknowledging that the tattoo episode in the bar demonstrates how she is willing to cross boundaries and break agreements. It's not about the tattoo . . . it's about her doing whatever she wants and expecting to be told she's right to do it!


I texted my sil and asked her how she knew Ally was gay so quickly.She said that the first night we got there it was very late and we went straight to bed.There were two beds in the room we were sharing and sil said the following morning it was obvious that both beds had been slept in.Also I had told her and my brother that we were just friends and they hadn't really believed me until the first morning.
And there was me thinking it was woman's intuition or something.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I texted my sil and asked her how she knew Ally was gay so quickly.She said that the first night we got there it was very late and we went straight to bed.There were two beds in the room we were sharing and sil said the following morning it was obvious that both beds had been slept in.Also I had told her and my brother that we were just friends and they hadn't really believed me until the first morning.
> And there was me thinking it was woman's intuition or something.


So... the only reason she has for believing Ally is gay is because you slept in separate beds after getting in really late that first night? Sorry, but that would not scream "she's gay" to me at all. What would do it is watching your interaction, seeing how she looks at you. I believe you when you say she is gay. But to base it on sleeping arrangements? Sorry, that makes me :rofl:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> So... the only reason she has for believing Ally is gay is because you slept in separate beds after getting in really late that first night? Sorry, but that would not scream "she's gay" to me at all. What would do it is watching your interaction, seeing how she looks at you. I believe you when you say she is gay. But to base it on sleeping arrangements? Sorry, that makes me :rofl:
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Well that's what she told me.It was nearly nine years ago though and I just sprung it on her this morning.I was going to show the text to my F,but after your comment I don't think that would be wise.


----------



## Maricha75

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Honestly, Andy, if you want to show her the text, then show her the text. My guess is that even after seeing both beds had been slept in, your sil also watched how you interacted, and certainly watched how Ally looked at you. After spending time with both of you, together, she could see that there was nothing between you. It's something obvious, if paying attention to it. Regardless, everyone else can see there is nothing between you and Ally... which means either your fiancée is projecting... or she has serious insecurity issues she needs to work through... or both.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Maricha75 said:


> Honestly, Andy, if you want to show her the text, then show her the text. My guess is that even after seeing both beds had been slept in, your sil also watched how you interacted, and certainly watched how Ally looked at you. After spending time with both of you, together, she could see that there was nothing between you. It's something obvious, if paying attention to it. Regardless, everyone else can see there is nothing between you and Ally... which means either your fiancée is projecting... or she has serious insecurity issues she needs to work through... or both.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I've just realised that Bruce Springsteen is getting a lot of mentions in this thread lol.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Ally and Sam came over yesterday at about five.Sam was supposed to work until eight but she switched with someone.It was great to see Sam again,I met up with Ally in March but I haven't seen Sam in almost three years.She is training to be an addiction counsellor through a homeless charity while holding down a full time job and she also volunteers with the homeless charity a few nights each month.She has always been involved with charity work long before Ally or me ever met her.Sam is very unlike Ally,she always looks a bit like a teacher you were afraid of in school.We used to call her serious Sam to try and get a rise out of her but she is actually very funny and loves practical jokes.One of the things homeless charities give out freely are condoms so I soon got used to checking everywhere for them because Sam thought it was hilarious to hide them everywhere.My camera bag always had more condoms in it than the average bar vending machine.We were once invited to a housewarming party by some friends and the three of us bought a set of crystal wine glasses and a decanter as a gift,Sam ended up working and Ally and me went on our own.When our friends opened the card Sam had wrote,she had just put my name and Ally's on it and it said I hope these get plenty of use tonight,of course there was about ten condoms in every glass and nobody believed that serious Sam had done it.I know that's neither here or there in relation to my thread but with all that's going on I need a laugh.
Sam and Ally spoke with me for about an hour and I told them what was going on.Sam gave me a dirty look when I was finished but she is so hard to read I ignored it.When my F arrived she was slightly taken aback to see Sam as she was only expecting Ally.We started talking and then Sam told me and Ally to take the boy outside as she wanted to talk to my F.I was surprised at this as I thought we were all going to clear this up but we went outside and played frisbee with the boy then we went back in.My F said Sam had explained that nothing had ever happened with Ally and also she wanted me to know she had never cheated on me.I realised then that Sam had turned the tables on my F and put the ball back in her court.
She said to me she was totally wrong about bringing up the tattoo in front of her friends but feels she was lashing out with the only thing that she thought would hurt me.She felt I was flirting all the time with her friends and employees and was so insecure that she figured that if she made me break up with her over the tattoo it was better than me cheating on her and making her look a fool.I immediately said I was not flirting and Sam told me to wise the **** up.Sam then asked me to take her down to the shops that she wanted to buy a gift for the boy.We drove down to the nearest shop and Sam bought a t shirt and some stickers for the boy.When we got back into the car she turned on me and gave me the biggest bollocking I ever got,she told me I'm still the same p***k as I was when they moved out and it was time to grow up.She brought up numerous times when she said I had behaved like a right b*****d to girls and if you looked at it the way she was describing it it did look bad.She told me that the reason my F always leaves the kid with her parents is so that I don't feel tied down and walk away like her ex did.She said my F is so insecure that she actually believed that I was sleeping with a lesbian.She also told me that the only reason she never told me this before is because I had been so good to Ally and she knew that I would always look out for her when she(sam) was in college.
I was really shocked and then I got pissed off and told her to shut the **** up,she kept shouting at me and I told her get out of my car which she did.I very nearly drove away but I'm glad I didn't.Eventually she got back into the car and the last thing she said to me was the comment about how I have no close male friends.I asked her what was that supposed to mean but she told me to figure it out myself.
We got back to the house and it was obvious we had been fighting,Ally got upset because she hates conflict.She gets so much crap from her family,they didn't talk to her for a long time after she told them she was gay and even now it is just the odd card at Christmas or her birthday and she isn't invited to family get togethers.Ally and Sam left without me and Sam making up.I can't believe all that has happened to me in one week it's a nightmare that just keeps getting worse.
My F and the boy stayed over again,I think she was worried about me ringing Sam and starting the row again.

This morning I rang Sam to apologise because I realise she was right but she wouldn't answer.I rung Ally and she said Sam was furious with me but would come round soon enough.I actually drove over to their apt and when Sam answered the door she started crying and we hugged and then Ally started crying as well so it ended up in a group hug like we used to have years ago.I realised that I am really blessed to have friends like this.Sam didn't want to talk about last night but she did say I should either break up with my F or else completely forgive her.She said not to consider marriage for at least two years but let my F move into her own apt with the boy.
She also said that it must be real love because she would only give my F a seven out of ten while I usually went for at least a nine,this goes back to when we all lived together and they would always comment on any date I brought home.I was glad she was joking again because I hated to see her upset.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Then marry her dude. You keep coming up with more and more stories proving you are a bad guy. It's what you want, so do it.


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Maricha75 sets the gold standard for communication, balance and maturity on this thread. 






Maricha75 said:


> @Truthseeker1, while I do stand by my initial response to you, I need to apologize, as well. I misunderstood what you meant in your post. I took it one way and you meant it another. I took it to be in line with the oft implied "you ought to get down on your knees and thank God you met me instead of the guy down the road"... and it seems your thought was "you were fortunate to meet a loving, caring man who loves your child. Most men don't want to bother with another man's child. You've got a great guy in Andy!"... Or maybe it was my mood at the time I wrote my reply. Either way, I apologize for going off, but I do stand by my point that I hate when people take the "you should get down on your knees and thank..." stance.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy,

So let me try and summarize what you've indirectly and very tactfully said: 

1. You are physically more attractive than your fiancee*
2. She makes more money than you 
3. Your friends are women - mostly attractive women
4. (3) is making your fiancee insecure/anxious


* She's a (7) physically and you typically date women more attractive than that. Implies you are an 8 or 9.


Is this correct so far?



Andy1001 said:


> We had a long talk yesterday and I will try and get my head around and post it later.One thing did strike me as strange,Sam asked me did I not think it strange thatI have no close male friends,just colleagues and all my closest friends are female.
> I never gave it much thought.When I was growing up I had lots of male friends but once I got into my twenties they seem to have drifted away.
> Sam is studying to be an addiction counsellor as well as working a full time job so her and Ally's time together is precious and I really appreciate them coming over to see me,but we kind of argued yesterday and I feel bad about it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MEM11363 said:


> Andy,
> 
> So let me try and summarize what you've indirectly and very tactfully said:
> 
> 1. You are physically more attractive than your fiancee*
> 2. She makes more money than you
> 3. Your friends are women - mostly attractive women
> 4. (3) is making your fiancee insecure/anxious
> 
> 
> * She's a (7) physically and you typically date women more attractive than that. Implies you are an 8 or 9.
> 
> 
> Is this correct so far?


The seven comment by Sam was a joke,my F is beautiful.
She earns less than me and I am worth a lot more financially speaking,yes her business is very successful but so is mine.When my parents died they left my brother and I a lot of money and property/equity.At that stage neither of us needed it.
I know where your going with this and you are wrong.
Yes. my friends seem to be mostly female.Im not sure what Sam meant about that and she will not explain.


----------



## Thomas Quinn

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GusPolinski said:


> You need more time to get your head straight. You shouldn't be jumping at every chance to spent time around her right now.
> 
> Bottom line -- you need to stop _feeling_ your way through this and start _thinking_ your way through it.
> 
> Hot and sexy doesn't necessarily make for the best partner in the long term.
> 
> _Especially_ when it's all tatted up w/ a buzz cut.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And this is while she is screwing the "bad boys" at the bar while you are raising another mans kid...
Dude effing run!!!


----------



## MEM2020

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So are you peers - equals - physically?






Andy1001 said:


> The seven comment by Sam was a joke,my F is beautiful.
> She earns less than me and I am worth a lot more financially speaking,yes her business is very successful but so is mine.When my parents died they left my brother and I a lot of money and property/equity.At that stage neither of us needed it.
> I know where your going with this and you are wrong.
> Yes. my friends seem to be mostly female.Im not sure what Sam meant about that and she will not explain.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MEM11363 said:


> So are you peers - equals - physically?


I would think so


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

When I woke up this morning I immediately regretted apologising to Sam about anything other than telling her get out of my car.
She was a willing participant in anything me and Ally got up to so its a bit rich all these years later to suddenly decide it was inappropriate behaviour on my part.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You've come pretty far in a week's time. I think it's good to get a lot of this out in the open instead of letting it fester.

Clearly, both of you have a lot to think about.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would think so


And I have never cheated on her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> You've come pretty far in a week's time. I think it's good to get a lot of this out in the open instead of letting it fester.
> 
> Clearly, both of you have a lot to think about.


I'm beginning to think I've been living in cloud cuckoo land,nothing is as it seems.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Better to discover this now.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> When I woke up this morning I immediately regretted apologising to Sam about anything other than telling her get out of my car.
> She was a willing participant in anything me and Ally got up to so its a bit rich all these years later to suddenly decide it was inappropriate behaviour on my part.


No, it is okay to say it was inappropriate. There are things I KNOW I did, when I was younger, which were completely and utterly inappropriate and stupid. She is WRONG to use it as an attack on you and use it to explain why your fiance is insecure. The only reason it would apply is if Sam and Ally have been running their mouths about your former escapades to your fiance.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001 : Reason I brought up "how you meet" - is that you say your F has all these insecurities issues. And that its unbelievable. Maybe its unbelievable to her as well? To give us insight to what is going on and why you seem to be bending over backwards for your F. Sam has brought up good points, shes your OLD friend and is also looking out for you. Keep that in mind. My Oldest sister looks out for me and has helped me quite a lot through my drama. Insecurities that my wayward had with me, that didn't get brought up until the poop had long hit the fan, were important details that festered for years. My sexual experience over her (# women I had sex with) and being friends/good terms with those I dated and trying to please me. She wasn't what I was looking for when I meet her, but we both feel for each other HARD when we had out first kiss.

Either way, you both can benefit with IC and CC.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> @Andy1001 : Reason I brought up "how you meet" - is that you say your F has all these insecurities issues. And that its unbelievable. Maybe its unbelievable to her as well? To give us insight to what is going on and why you seem to be bending over backwards for your F. Sam has brought up good points, shes your OLD friend and is also looking out for you. Keep that in mind. My Oldest sister looks out for me and has helped me quite a lot through my drama. Insecurities that my wayward had with me, that didn't get brought up until the poop had long hit the fan, were important details that festered for years. My sexual experience over her (# women I had sex with) and being friends/good terms with those I dated and trying to please me. She wasn't what I was looking for when I meet her, but we both feel for each other HARD when we had out first kiss.
> 
> Either way, you both can benefit with IC and CC.


Preliminary counselling session arranged for this afternoon.(Ic)


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> No, it is okay to say it was inappropriate. There are things I KNOW I did, when I was younger, which were completely and utterly inappropriate and stupid. She is WRONG to use it as an attack on you and use it to explain why your fiance is insecure. The only reason it would apply is if Sam and Ally have been running their mouths about your former escapades to your fiance.


Did the people who joined in with you ever come back and say it was all your fault though? Your other point raised some issues with me though because I just realised my F knew who Sam was on Sunday even though they had supposedly never met.Now I may be just feeling paranoid about this,my head is all over the place and maybe she just assumed but even I didn't know Sam was coming over.As for Ally she would never go behind my back,trust me on this.Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

How would she know Sam?

Why would you believe that?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> How would she know Sam?
> 
> Why would you believe that?


I don't know,I'm probably clutching at straws,but she has changed a lot.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Regardless of the source of insecurities in your fiancee, they are there. People with insecurities often look around for external explanations for them, when in truth they reside inside the person. Now that your friends have settled the issue for your fiancee that you haven't cheated on your fiancee, it seems to the tide has turned to "you flirt with my female friends and that makes me insecure." And I don't know that I entirely believe that the reason your fiancee leaves her kid with her parents so that you won't run away is entirely true, but even if there is, it is once again a sign of insecurity. In order for you to know if this relationship is going to work long-term, or even be able to assess if it is possible, you have to experience your fiancee's life as it is, and that includes the child. So you have them staying over now and then. 

Whatever else Sam said that may or may not be true, I think she is absolutely right that to echo what has already been suggested and proposed, which is that your fiancee needs to get her own place and live there with her boy before the two of you decide to marry and make a commitment. You both seem to have some introspection to do, and I think that while you're capable of doing it, I'm not sure your fiancee wants to stare down the true source of her insecurity and deal with it. I hope for your sake I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing a lot of progress on her part. 

And I'm not sure what to make of your fiancee's assertion that the only thing she had to hurt you with was the tattoo remark in the public space. Maybe SHE thinks you're flirting with her friends, but siding with her friend who doesn't seem to a supporter of your relationship doesn't seem healthy. Instead of ragging you and saying, oh, I'm going to get a tattoo of my friend's dad, and she thinks I should do it just to spite you, maybe she could have said to her friend, look, if you don't agree with our arrangement that I won't get one, suggest ways to me that I can talk to Andy about it to get a different agreement. There's no maturity, in other words, in the way they're goading you. If they think you're flirting, they need to pull you aside and say that, and say that they feel their friend is being disrespected when you do. 

I'm just suggesting there are more adult ways to talk about this stuff, and I think that's what Sam was trying to get you to see. She seems to have sized up the situation pretty accurately and is frustrated that you're not seeing it too.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> Regardless of the source of insecurities in your fiancee, they are there. People with insecurities often look around for external explanations for them, when in truth they reside inside the person. Now that your friends have settled the issue for your fiancee that you haven't cheated on your fiancee, it seems to the tide has turned to "you flirt with my female friends and that makes me insecure." And I don't know that I entirely believe that the reason your fiancee leaves her kid with her parents so that you won't run away is entirely true, but even if there is, it is once again a sign of insecurity. In order for you to know if this relationship is going to work long-term, or even be able to assess if it is possible, you have to experience your fiancee's life as it is, and that includes the child. So you have them staying over now and then.
> 
> Whatever else Sam said that may or may not be true, I think she is absolutely right that to echo what has already been suggested and proposed, which is that your fiancee needs to get her own place and live there with her boy before the two of you decide to marry and make a commitment. You both seem to have some introspection to do, and I think that while you're capable of doing it, I'm not sure your fiancee wants to stare down the true source of her insecurity and deal with it. I hope for your sake I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing a lot of progress on her part.
> 
> And I'm not sure what to make of your fiancee's assertion that the only thing she had to hurt you with was the tattoo remark in the public space. Maybe SHE thinks you're flirting with her friends, but siding with her friend who doesn't seem to a supporter of your relationship doesn't seem healthy. Instead of ragging you and saying, oh, I'm going to get a tattoo of my friend's dad, and she thinks I should do it just to spite you, maybe she could have said to her friend, look, if you don't agree with our arrangement that I won't get one, suggest ways to me that I can talk to Andy about it to get a different agreement. There's no maturity, in other words, in the way they're goading you. If they think you're flirting, they need to pull you aside and say that, and say that they feel their friend is being disrespected when you do.
> 
> I'm just suggesting there are more adult ways to talk about this stuff, and I think that's what Sam was trying to get you to see. She seems to have sized up the situation pretty accurately and is frustrated that you're not seeing it too.


Thank you once again for your insight.I have a preliminary session with a counsellor this evening.She came highly recommended(by a lawyer who specialises in divorce)and agreed to see me after normal working hours as a favour to him.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Hunh? You mean you are both going to see this counselor right?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Hunh? You mean you are both going to see this counselor right?


No,just me.She knows nothing about it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Why?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Why?


Because I need professional advice without her there blaming me for everything.
I have realised something,I may or may not have unintentially hurt her.
But she intentionally tried to hurt me.
And she succeeded.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Okay, well good luck. You are going about this wrong, IMO, but it is your life.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Okay, well good luck. You are going about this wrong, IMO, but it is your life.


I have to either do something or walk.This is just a preliminary session if the counsellor reckons it will help I will ask my f to join in the next session.Thanks for your advice anyway.


----------



## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

To be honest, I don't see the point of this type of pre-marriage counseling. You should feel like you're on cloud 9 with the person you're thinking of marriage. If you have to get counseling at this point, it's a big red flag that it's not going to work out. 

There is valuable type of pre-marriage counseling, and that's when you discuss how you will handle situations like money, kids, lifestyle, etc to see if you're really on the same page for the big decisions in life.

You might as well go to the session, but understand that counseling requires a lot of continual work and may not have any big results. Thinking long term, you'll likely be better off trying to meet someone new than trying to fix this relationship through counseling.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



wilson said:


> To be honest, I don't see the point of this type of pre-marriage counseling. You should feel like you're on cloud 9 with the person you're thinking of marriage. If you have to get counseling at this point, it's a big red flag that it's not going to work out.
> 
> There is valuable type of pre-marriage counseling, and that's when you discuss how you will handle situations like money, kids, lifestyle, etc to see if you're really on the same page for the big decisions in life.
> 
> You might as well go to the session, but understand that counseling requires a lot of continual work and may not have any big results. Thinking long term, you'll likely be better off trying to meet someone new than trying to fix this relationship through counseling.


You are probably right,but I have five years invested in this relationship which is about four years and eleven months longer than any other one I had.My f seems to think everything is fine and dandy and that I have accepted we were both wrong.But I haven't.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So she's insecure and thinks your cheating, then she's insecure that your going to run away. So after 5 years, she still doesn't get her son involved. THEN she's insecure that your flirting with other women? 

There's an issue here. She needs to find the root of her insecurities. She doesn't trust you. Believe me. Did something happen in a past relationship to make her this way? Ex cheating, abuse ect? Because her behaviour isn't normal and she needs to get to the bottom of it. She should be in counselling, not you. You can't form a healthy relationship if there is no trust and respect. And the way she intentionally hurt you.... There's no respect at all. It sounds like she walks all over you, and you let her. 

She needs to be more involved with her son. She's a mother. It's who she is. And I'm sure when you started dating her, you knew this and accepted both of them. So after 5 years, he should be more involved in your relationship. You should be a family! In all honesty, you should probably try living together before marriage. A LOT of crap comes out in the early living days, and I don't think your relationship would handle the different personalities at such a close space 24/7. 

She needs counselling. And you need to ask her to get it individually to sort her trust and insecurity issues. She can't provide a loving relationship if she doesn't love herself.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> So she's insecure and thinks your cheating, then she's insecure that your going to run away. So after 5 years, she still doesn't get her son involved. THEN she's insecure that your flirting with other women?
> 
> There's an issue here. She needs to find the root of her insecurities. She doesn't trust you. Believe me. Did something happen in a past relationship to make her this way? Ex cheating, abuse ect? Because her behaviour isn't normal and she needs to get to the bottom of it. She should be in counselling, not you. You can't form a healthy relationship if there is no trust and respect. And the way she intentionally hurt you.... There's no respect at all. It sounds like she walks all over you, and you let her.
> 
> She needs to be more involved with her son. She's a mother. It's who she is. And I'm sure when you started dating her, you knew this and accepted both of them. So after 5 years, he should be more involved in your relationship. You should be a family! In all honesty, you should probably try living together before marriage. A LOT of crap comes out in the early living days, and I don't think your relationship would handle the different personalities at such a close space 24/7.
> 
> She needs counselling. And you need to ask her to get it individually to sort her trust and insecurity issues. She can't provide a loving relationship if she doesn't love herself.


 @chatabox, I agree with everything you've said, but with one caveat. Andy has had an ephipany, one that many of us were urging him towards: 

"Because I need professional advice without her there blaming me for everything.
I have realised something,I may or may not have unintentially hurt her.
But she intentionally tried to hurt me.
And she succeeded."

He needs to sort this out and how he feels before he tells her she needs counseling and raises questions with her about some of her issues. 

As the old adage goes, you have to attach your own oxygen mask first before you're in any kind of shape to help anyone else in a significant sustained way. And after he sorts this issue out, he may not want to bother investing the time and effort in getting her to go to counseling and deal with her insecurities. 

Whatever the source of them, whatever may have happened in the past to cause them, the operative term here is "intentionally" when Andy describes the event that hurt him. 

He's made it third base and he's almost home; and when he gets there, he can decide what to do about helping her figure herself out.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

This isn't what I was pushing nor is it an epiphany. He's going there to for all the wrong reasons and IMO chatbox called it correctly.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@phillybeffandswiss, I see your posts above, so I was wondering if you'd elaborate. I'm slow so could you elaborate on what you mean about him going about it all wrong? He DID say she admitted she did what she did to hurt him, in collaboration with her friends. I think it is good he sees that she made that confession and intended to hurt him, and I for one am inclined to see the motivation of someone. So if someone hurts me inadvertantly that's one thing, but if they set out to do it, that's another. And that's not marriage material, in my opinion.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> @chatabox, I agree with everything you've said, but with one caveat. Andy has had an ephipany, one that many of us were urging him towards:
> 
> "Because I need professional advice without her there blaming me for everything.
> I have realised something,I may or may not have unintentially hurt her.
> But she intentionally tried to hurt me.
> And she succeeded."
> 
> He needs to sort this out and how he feels before he tells her she needs counseling and raises questions with her about some of her issues.
> 
> As the old adage goes, you have to attach your own oxygen mask first before you're in any kind of shape to help anyone else in a significant sustained way. And after he sorts this issue out, he may not want to bother investing the time and effort in getting her to go to counseling and deal with her insecurities.
> 
> Whatever the source of them, whatever may have happened in the past to cause them, the operative term here is "intentionally" when Andy describes the event that hurt him.
> 
> He's made it third base and he's almost home; and when he gets there, he can decide what to do about helping her figure herself out.


Exactly. He is on the right heading, even if his velocity is not quite where it should yet be.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


----------



## tech-novelist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am engaged to be married next October,my fiancée is 32 and has a seven year old son from a previous relationship.When we started being exclusive I made a point of saying tattoos were a deal breaker and she laughed and said her fear of needles would rule them out anyway.
> So of course you know what's coming.She informed in front of a lot of her friends on Sunday that she is getting a tattoo on her side to support one of her friends who has had a bereavement.I told her we needed to discuss this alone but her friends all butted in and said it's her body and she can do what she wants.I ended up going home on my own(she lives with her parents but stays in my house overnight when we go out).I met her on Monday and she was furious because I showed her up in front of her friends.
> I asked her what about our agreement and she said she was supporting her friend.I got really angry and told her if her friends meant more to her than me then there was no point going on.I swear this is the first time I ever lost my temper with her but she is adamant this tattoo is happening,and for me not to be so stupid.I really hate tattoos and there is no way we are getting married if she goes through with it.Am I being unreasonable about this.


I will say that you are fortunate not to be married to her, because she doesn't care what you think or (even more important) what promises she has made to you.

So obviously I don't think you are being unreasonable.


----------



## tech-novelist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Yes she had been drinking,we were in a bar watching football on tv,but she thought I would just accept this as I normally just let her do what she wants.By the way she is no fool she has a successful business that she built from scratch.I think she regrets saying it to me in front of her friends and she can't be seen to back down.


That makes it even worse. She is more concerned about being "seen to back down" by her friends than about a promise she made to you? Run!


----------



## tech-novelist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Festivus said:


> So I don't necessarily disagree with much of the advice you've received so far, but...
> 
> Someone who won't marry another person because of a tattoo seems extraordinarily rigid to me. As the saying goes, pick the hill you want to die on. Is this it? I don't think it's unreasonable to evaluate our prejudices from time to time to evaluate their real importance.
> 
> I remember telling my wife at 22 to take me out in the back yard and shoot me if I ever drove a mini-van. Well, after two kids, you know the drill. And (damn it) it was a good vehicle.


Well, don't keep us in suspense! Did she shoot you or not?


----------



## tech-novelist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Yeah I think I just got a little excited at seeing her again,she is seriously hot.I never even thought about the tattoo so she might have already got it for all I know.Thats my problem when I see things from afar I am sensible enough but once she is beside me common sense seems to leave.


Yes, men often think with the wrong head when dealing with hot women.

The results are usually not very good, unfortunately.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> @chatabox, I agree with everything you've said, but with one caveat. Andy has had an ephipany, one that many of us were urging him towards:
> 
> 
> 
> "Because I need professional advice without her there blaming me for everything.
> 
> I have realised something,I may or may not have unintentially hurt her.
> 
> But she intentionally tried to hurt me.
> 
> And she succeeded."
> 
> 
> 
> He needs to sort this out and how he feels before he tells her she needs counseling and raises questions with her about some of her issues.
> 
> 
> 
> As the old adage goes, you have to attach your own oxygen mask first before you're in any kind of shape to help anyone else in a significant sustained way. And after he sorts this issue out, he may not want to bother investing the time and effort in getting her to go to counseling and deal with her insecurities.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever the source of them, whatever may have happened in the past to cause them, the operative term here is "intentionally" when Andy describes the event that hurt him.
> 
> 
> 
> He's made it third base and he's almost home; and when he gets there, he can decide what to do about helping her figure herself out.




I agree that he should also speak to his own counsellor, but him inviting her to join his sessions are going to be a waste of time. Sorry, I wasn't clearer in my original post. 

She needs her own independent person working for her, to be on her side. She needs to sort her own issues before any decision can be made on the relationship, and starting combined pre-marital counselling. And as her fiancee he should suggest this because he obviously still loves and cares for her. It doesn't matter if Andy decides to stay or go at the end of the day. She needs her own sessions to figure out better who she is, and sort some of her own issues.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> I agree that he should also speak to his own counsellor, but him inviting her to join his sessions are going to be a waste of time. Sorry, I wasn't clearer in my original post.
> 
> She needs her own independent person working for her, to be on her side. She needs to sort her own issues before any decision can be made on the relationship, and starting combined pre-marital counselling. And as her fiancee he should suggest this because he obviously still loves and cares for her. It doesn't matter if Andy decides to stay or go at the end of the day. She needs her own sessions to figure out better who she is, and sort some of her own issues.


Totally agree.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

He's going to counseling for the wrong reason, but he's convinced it is right so, there is no need to elaborate.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> He's going to counseling for the wrong reason, but he's convinced it is right so, there is no need to elaborate.




Having someone listen and validate his concerns are very important. It's good to know you have people on your side. But this should be about him. Not their relationship.


----------



## tech-novelist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I probably should explain about Alison.As I said I met her at a Springsteen concert and got talking with her after the show.It turned out we both had tickets for the following night also so we decided to go together.After the second show we went for a drink and got talking.
> She told me straight away that she was gay but had not "came out"to her family who were very religious.We started going to gigs together and sometimes stayed in hostels or cheap bed and breakfasts together.Again I swear nothing ever happened sexually we really were just good friends.It suited Ally to have me with her because guys weren't hitting on her and strangely I never had as many girls hitting on me,it seems when women see a guy with a beautiful woman they figure he must have something to offer and they want it.Im probably wrong about that but that's how it seemed to be.


You are not wrong about that. This is a well-known effect called "pre-selection". Google it if you are interested in how it works.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



tech-novelist said:


> You are not wrong about that. This is a well-known effect called "pre-selection". Google it if you are interested in how it works.


Thats great, at last I'm right about something.I had never heard of that before but I can vouch that is true.


----------



## Vulcan2013

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

A couple observations...

You: not sure how to say this, but with the genders reversed, I'd be wary of a woman with only male friends. That is an indicator of some issues with you? Other than your brother, do you have any bros? Guys who know you well, good and bad? (Lesbians don't count as "bros"). 

Do you think other guys avoid you because you are flirtatious with their girls? Attractiveness isn't necessarily what is making your gf insecure, it's likely you have poor boundaries, are too friendly, and eat up attention. Your SIL, gf, and Sam all commented on this. 

You also seem to have issues setting boundaries with others. With my kids, I used to be weak, just me mumbling "quiet, behave" type stuff, without *doing* anything. Then, one instance too many of the behavior I had been ignoring, I'd blow up, yelling, spanking, time out, whatever. This is the "threatening/exploding" pattern you have. When I learned to gently confront my kids directly, their behavior changed. I didn't explode, they behaved better, and everyone was happier. You might check out "No More Mr. Nice Guy", and learn how to be stronger and healthier. 

Her: the blameshifting is worrisome. I see some signs of a NPD or some PD. Does it seem like you are either all good or all bad in her eyes? On the other hand, insecurity can make people act crazy. She has a huge fear of abandonment, where does that come from?


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Vulcan2013 said:


> A couple observations...
> 
> I see some signs of a NPD or some PD. Does it seem like you are either all good or all bad in her eyes? On the other hand, insecurity can make people act crazy. She has a huge fear of abandonment, where does that come from?


Yup. Is she a splitter, i.e., sometimes you are perfect and awesome and without a flaw, and then at other times you can't do anything right and she's angry and wants to hurt you (passive-aggressive goes with NPD in many ways) . . .


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Are you sure your not my counsellor,lol.She said almost the exact thing to me earlier today.I seen her on Wednesday,it was supposed to be an hour but ended up being two.What Sam said had been bugging me so that was the first question I asked her after telling her the whole story.She started talking about my relationship(or lack of one)with my brother.I will be honest we have never got on,I speak more often with his wife and kids than I do with him.He was never around when I was growing up and even though I stayed with his family for three months when I was working in the UK I hardly ever spoke alone with him.I hadn't realised he thought I was a waster until our parents died and both of us met the lawyer to hear the will.He made some smart ass remark that now I could sit on my ass for the rest of my life and do nothing.We almost came to blows and Just to wipe the smug look off his face I told him how much I had earned from a piece of software I had developed and he was shocked.He tried to apologise but I told him he was a prick and now our parents were dead(they both died the same day,three days after Ally and Sam had moved out)we had no reason to contact each other again.It was Ally who made contact with him again but he is still the same prick,he thinks he can tell me what to do.At the risk of repeating myself I have never cheated on my F and I have had plenty of opportunities.My counsellor asked me to think about something,she said if Ally was straight would I be with my F.I don't need to think about it.She is charging me a fortune so she better be worth it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> Yup. Is she a splitter, i.e., sometimes you are perfect and awesome and without a flaw, and then at other times you can't do anything right and she's angry and wants to hurt you (passive-aggressive goes with NPD in many ways) . . .


I am normally the most passive,easy going guy you could meet.I never fall out with people normally,it was the talk about the tattoo that set me off.I want to put something into perspective.If my F told me she had cheated I think I would have eventually forgave her.I would never forgive a tattoo.The only way I can explain this is imagine there is a type of food that you hate,it really turns your stomach.Then imagine knowing you would have to eat that food every day for the rest of your life.Well that's how I feel about her getting a tattoo.


----------



## tech-novelist

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am normally the most passive,easy going guy you could meet.I never fall out with people normally,it was the talk about the tattoo that set me off.I want to put something into perspective.If my F told me she had cheated I think I would have eventually forgave her.I would never forgive a tattoo.The only way I can explain this is imagine there is a type of food that you hate,it really turns your stomach.Then imagine knowing you would have to eat that food every day for the rest of your life.Well that's how I feel about her getting a tattoo.


I would have "liked" this but I don't think that is appropriate in this case.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Vulcan2013 said:


> A couple observations...
> 
> You: not sure how to say this, but with the genders reversed, I'd be wary of a woman with only male friends. That is an indicator of some issues with you? Other than your brother, do you have any bros? Guys who know you well, good and bad? (Lesbians don't count as "bros").
> 
> Do you think other guys avoid you because you are flirtatious with their girls? Attractiveness isn't necessarily what is making your gf insecure, it's likely you have poor boundaries, are too friendly, and eat up attention. Your SIL, gf, and Sam all commented on this.
> 
> You also seem to have issues setting boundaries with others. With my kids, I used to be weak, just me mumbling "quiet, behave" type stuff, without *doing* anything. Then, one instance too many of the behavior I had been ignoring, I'd blow up, yelling, spanking, time out, whatever. This is the "threatening/exploding" pattern you have. When I learned to gently confront my kids directly, their behavior changed. I didn't explode, they behaved better, and everyone was happier. You might check out "No More Mr. Nice Guy", and learn how to be stronger and healthier.
> 
> Her: the blameshifting is worrisome. I see some signs of a NPD or some PD. Does it seem like you are either all good or all bad in her eyes? On the other hand, insecurity can make people act crazy. She has a huge fear of abandonment, where does that come from?


My last post was in response to your question,I didn't post it correctly.
One other thing other than Ally and(maybe) Sam I don't have any close female friends either.I have always been quite happy on my own,just hooking up with one night stands and playing the field.The longest relationship I ever remember before meeting my F was about a month in length.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Are you sure your not my counsellor,lol.She said almost the exact thing to me earlier today.I seen her on Wednesday,it was supposed to be an hour but ended up being two.What Sam said had been bugging me so that was the first question I asked her after telling her the whole story.She started talking about my relationship(or lack of one)with my brother.I will be honest we have never got on,I speak more often with his wife and kids than I do with him.He was never around when I was growing up and even though I stayed with his family for three months when I was working in the UK I hardly ever spoke alone with him.I hadn't realised he thought I was a waster until our parents died and both of us met the lawyer to hear the will.He made some smart ass remark that now I could sit on my ass for the rest of my life and do nothing.We almost came to blows and Just to wipe the smug look off his face I told him how much I had earned from a piece of software I had developed and he was shocked.He tried to apologise but I told him he was a prick and now our parents were dead(they both died the same day,three days after Ally and Sam had moved out)we had no reason to contact each other again.It was Ally who made contact with him again but he is still the same prick,he thinks he can tell me what to do.At the risk of repeating myself I have never cheated on my F and I have had plenty of opportunities.My counsellor asked me to think about something,she said if Ally was straight would I be with my F.I don't need to think about it.She is charging me a fortune so she better be worth it.


I'm about to be in a graduate psychology and counseling program. I abandoned my PhD in History because I always wanted to be a psychologist or psychiatrist, but when my husband displayed a million different mental health issues and a significant personality disorder, I decided I wanted to study that instead. I am convinced that most of the time people in post-graduate work are there to resolve some autobiographical issue. LOL!


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> I'm about to be in a graduate psychology and counseling program. I abandoned my PhD in History because I always wanted to be a psychologist or psychiatrist, but when my husband displayed a million different mental health issues and a significant personality disorder, I decided I wanted to study that instead. I am convinced that most of the time people in post-graduate work are there to resolve some autobiographical issue. LOL!


She's charging me four hundred an hour so keep studying,the rewards,financially anyway are worth it.History can wait,it always repeats itself anyway.

My counsellor thinks I'm paranoid.
She hasn't said it but I know she's thinking it.


I'm joking.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She's charging me four hundred an hour so keep studying,the rewards,financially anyway are worth it.History can wait,it always repeats itself anyway.
> 
> My counsellor thinks I'm paranoid.
> She hasn't said it but I know she's thinking it.
> 
> 
> I'm joking.


Okay first, LOL, good to keep your sense of humor through all this. 

$400 an hour is high. My therapist is $50 a session! But really, this is going to be my part-time job when I retire; I can set up my own shop and work when I like. And yes, the PhD would have required me to work far more than 40 hours a week, and I wanted my life back. 

And you'll get yours back too; keep working on it. That's $400 an hour well spent.


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

$400 an hour is crazy. You should see a therapist to determine why you are willing to pay such an amount. 😁
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Evinrude58 said:


> $400 an hour is crazy. You should see a therapist to determine why you are willing to pay such an amount. 😁
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have to pay the f***** lawyer who recommended her too.She seems to know her stuff though,she has enough letter after her name anyway.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> Okay first, LOL, good to keep your sense of humor through all this.
> 
> $400 an hour is high. My therapist is $50 a session! But really, this is going to be my part-time job when I retire; I can set up my own shop and work when I like. And yes, the PhD would have required me to work far more than 40 hours a week, and I wanted my life back.
> 
> And you'll get yours back too; keep working on it. That's $400 an hour well spent.


Your empathy and your genuine sympathy have struck a chord with me.I don't know if you and your husband made it through your difficulties but I would like to say whoever you work with in your future career can rest assured that you have a real interest in helping them overcome their problems,you are a very kind woman and that is the biggest compliment I could give you.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Your empathy and your genuine sympathy have struck a chord with me.I don't know if you and your husband made it through your difficulties but I would like to say whoever you work with in your future career can rest assured that you have a real interest in helping them overcome their problems,you are a very kind woman and that is the biggest compliment I could give you.


Thank you, @Andy1001. My h and I didn't make it, and he's actually my ex-h, married, sort of, to his OW, but he did it before we were divorced, so he's really not. Many of my friends, AND my therapist, continue to argue that he did that purposely so that in the event he does manage to find his way clear of the fog and find his sanity and emerge a whole person, he can easily come home. That's all very sweet, but I have learned to separate hope from expectations; the latter are deadly but we can't live without the former; ironically, however, it must remain unformed and unshaped. 

But I appreciate your sweet and affirming words, and yes, it is a very significant compliment. I'll admit I have a soft spot for you as a Brit, since half my family is and the majority of my genes are, and had I grown up in the UK my life would have taken a much different, much more positive trajectory, since I would have grown up around people who got me and didn't describe me as a square peg trying to fit into a round hole (although my siblings and nieces and nephews are turning to me now to paddle their way through the waves of our family dysfunction - it really is weird to be like an observer looking on from a detached distance). To survive this stuff intact as a human being and not bitter and willing to see that human beings are just that, at sea in a world that has lost its moral compass or its sense of virtue, or where people are constantly striving to either discover or preserve their sense of identity and purpose, is in its own weird way a gift. We're all here to help each other, and we form community wherever we get the opportunity and in whatever forms we can.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

OK I am on page 20 and I can't take it anymore. I feel like I a reading about a bunch of high school kids. Your F is 32? She lives at home has catty meddling friends and a child she lets her parents co-raise, even though she has a successful business? You are marrying her why? Your best friend's wife decided to give you an impromptu counseling session after speaking to your F for a hour or two? WTF? You apologized to her? Seriously dude. Why are you not both busy working on building a career, you know adult stuff, I mean how do you have time for all this high school bulls***t? 

I got to ask are you changing your ages to protect your anonymity on this site because if not the lack of maturity in everyone in this story is astounding. 

Is this girl your first real girlfriend? Is she your <first> and only ...? Be honest if you couldn't have sex with her ever again would you be so into her? 

OP if I were you I would spend a few days reading all the long threads about guys who's wives cheated on this and other sites. Compare some of the red-flags in those stories to the ones in your relationship. By the way they are not all coming from you GF. A lot of them are coming from you. You are nowhere near ready to be married. You're all over the place. You have described more drama then my wife and I have had in our whole 15 year dating/married relationship. 

Go spend a month with your brother, clear you head. You both really need to grow up a lot before you will be able to have a successful marriage. I mean you don't sound like a team at all, you don't even sound like you guys discussed any of this much, at least not intimately. Some of this stuff like learning how to communicate, dealing with friends, preparing for how you are going to live together, raising kids, defending one other from outside influences, dealing with money, loyalty, honor, what marriage means to both of you, should have been ongoing discussions for a long time now. You were engaged, you should be way past this point. At this time you should be working towards co-parenting (she isn't even parenting fully yet), and teamwork. You should be becoming like one well oiled machine, so when the marriage comes it is like the checkered flag. You guys are still in the shop, deciding on the tires. Your brother is right to be worried. 

I am curious what was your childhood like, where both parents around? How was their marriage? Since your brother was so much older then you were your parents older too?

Honestly you were more on the right track when you were giving her lists, at least then you had a plan and some momentum, a semblance of communication, goals. You have once again become too passive. Time to regroup now.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Did something happen in a past relationship to make her this way?


Have you read the thread, the father of her child basically bailed.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am normally the most passive,easy going guy you could meet.


I don't doubt that, your thread kind of proves it. You say this like it is a good thing but it is really not. You need to read no more Mr nice guy.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> Many of my friends, AND my therapist, continue to argue that he did that purposely so that in the event he does manage to find his way clear of the fog and find his sanity and emerge a whole person, he can easily come home. That's all very sweet, but I have learned to separate hope from expectations; the latter are deadly but we can't live without the former; ironically, however, it must remain unformed and unshaped.


Why in the world would you hope someone like that comes home?


----------



## ABHale

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Something very funny happened this afternoon which completely slipped my mind.One of her mouthy friends texted me to say it was just a joke that got out of hand and I shouldn't have stopped my fiancée from going out all this week.I had no contact since Monday am with my fiancée so maybe by not going out she was starting to see sense.What was funny though was this friend said if things don't work out for me and my fiancée to give her a call if I wanted to talk"or something"
> She is one of the main **** stirrers and now she wants to come to my house to "talk or something".
> Honestly if this woman was on fire I wouldn't piss on her to put it out.


You understand why she was stirring the pot now right.

Did you she your F the text? I think you should so she can see what true friends they are.


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> I am convinced that most of the time people in post-graduate work are there to resolve some autobiographical issue. LOL!


How very true! 

Pyschosomatic transference of syndromes. 

Yes, after maturing, people seek THAT occupational and social connection that FEELS right for them.

It has been my experience that many in this field are emotional wrecks, flawed and very ODD! Yes, I have friends in this field.

Psychology is an interesting subject.....fun, helpful, insightful but toxic for the easily impressionable. They see themselves in every new chapter.

So many young girls proudly announce that THEY are majoring in psychology. Wishful thinking!

To be effective in this practice you have to accurately categorize a patient, find the true cause of their woes and then find a tailored method for each cure, if one is possible. Medication is used too much.

And you have to hold the patients attention, loyalty and [their patience] long enough to help them. People skills is paramount. Having personal charisma helps. You have to be a good salesperson and a good "manipulator"---> For their mental health. 

Empathy helps.

It is an emotionally draining occupation. It either burns you out or makes you indifferent or callous.

Dealing with the emotionally crippled is maddening! Huh?

To get to Andy's problem: Most people cannot significantly "change", but being aware [teaching awareness] of what is behind certain behaviors is one the greatest strengths and value in psychology.

Good luck with your studies.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ABHale said:


> You understand why she was stirring the pot now right.
> 
> Did you she your F the text? I think you should so she can see what true friends they are.


Maybe she had her friend send the text as a test.


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ABHale said:


> You understand why she was stirring the pot now right.
> 
> Did you she your F the text? I think you should so she can see what true friends they are.


Better to stir the pot, then smoke it. 

Yes, the women is burning perceived enemies.


----------



## ABHale

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> Maybe she had her friend send the text as a test.


I read later he showed the text to his F and she quite the friend ad let go the girls that work for her that offered a shoulder to cry on. She could have done that still.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> Have you read the thread, the father of her child basically bailed.




Yes, but that's not normally a reason to be so emotionally insecure. If he were cheating on her first then I'd understand the insecurity. Hence why I asked. Lots of relationships fail. Kids or no kids. That's not a reason not to trust your new partner. There has to be more to it. And he doesn't need to give the answers if he doesn't want to. But it's something he needs to think about.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> Thank you, @Andy1001. My h and I didn't make it, and he's actually my ex-h, married, sort of, to his OW, but he did it before we were divorced, so he's really not. Many of my friends, AND my therapist, continue to argue that he did that purposely so that in the event he does manage to find his way clear of the fog and find his sanity and emerge a whole person, he can easily come home. That's all very sweet, but I have learned to separate hope from expectations; the latter are deadly but we can't live without the former; ironically, however, it must remain unformed and unshaped.
> 
> But I appreciate your sweet and affirming words, and yes, it is a very significant compliment. I'll admit I have a soft spot for you as a Brit, since half my family is and the majority of my genes are, and had I grown up in the UK my life would have taken a much different, much more positive trajectory, since I would have grown up around people who got me and didn't describe me as a square peg trying to fit into a round hole (although my siblings and nieces and nephews are turning to me now to paddle their way through the waves of our family dysfunction - it really is weird to be like an observer looking on from a detached distance). To survive this stuff intact as a human being and not bitter and willing to see that human beings are just that, at sea in a world that has lost its moral compass or its sense of virtue, or where people are constantly striving to either discover or preserve their sense of identity and purpose, is in its own weird way a gift. We're all here to help each other, and we form community wherever we get the opportunity and in whatever forms we can.


I do not want to disillusion you but I am not British.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> OK I am on page 20 and I can't take it anymore. I feel like I a reading about a bunch of high school kids. Your F is 32? She lives at home has catty meddling friends and a child she lets her parents co-raise, even though she has a successful business? You are marrying her why? Your best friend's wife decided to give you an impromptu counseling session after speaking to your F for a hour or two? WTF? You apologized to her? Seriously dude. Why are you not both busy working on building a career, you know adult stuff, I mean how do you have time for all this high school bulls***t?
> 
> I got to ask are you changing your ages to protect your anonymity on this site because if not the lack of maturity in everyone in this story is astounding.
> 
> Is this girl your first real girlfriend? Is she your <first> and only ...? Be honest if you couldn't have sex with her ever again would you be so into her?
> 
> OP if I were you I would spend a few days reading all the long threads about guys who's wives cheated on this and other sites. Compare some of the red-flags in those stories to the ones in your relationship. By the way they are not all coming from you GF. A lot of them are coming from you. You are nowhere near ready to be married. You're all over the place. You have described more drama then my wife and I have had in our whole 15 year dating/married relationship.
> 
> Go spend a month with your brother, clear you head. You both really need to grow up a lot before you will be able to have a successful marriage. I mean you don't sound like a team at all, you don't even sound like you guys discussed any of this much, at least not intimately. Some of this stuff like learning how to communicate, dealing with friends, preparing for how you are going to live together, raising kids, defending one other from outside influences, dealing with money, loyalty, honor, what marriage means to both of you, should have been ongoing discussions for a long time now. You were engaged, you should be way past this point. At this time you should be working towards co-parenting (she isn't even parenting fully yet), and teamwork. You should be becoming like one well oiled machine, so when the marriage comes it is like the checkered flag. You guys are still in the shop, deciding on the tires. Your brother is right to be worried.
> 
> I am curious what was your childhood like, where both parents around? How was their marriage? Since your brother was so much older then you were your parents older too?
> 
> Honestly you were more on the right track when you were giving her lists, at least then you had a plan and some momentum, a semblance of communication, goals. You have once again become too passive. Time to regroup now.


I know it ridiculous but it got out of hand.As careers go I have a very successful software business and my leasing deals alone bring in a lot of money.My F has about twenty employees and makes plenty of money too.
It's our personal life that sucks.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> Maybe she had her friend send the text as a test.




Well if she did that's the most immature thing ever. I agree with what you said in your previous thread. 
You guys need to take many steps back and rebuild the relationship properly, if you decide it is worth it.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I do not want to disillusion you but I am not British.


That's okay. You sound like you are. And regardless, you still seem sweet and kind and you have your future in front of you. That's good enough to still make me have a soft spot for you!


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> Why in the world would you hope someone like that comes home?


I don't. But he clearly had a host of physical and mental health issues that caused a breakdown in him, and his friends are worried about him and the conditions he currently lives in. My therapist is sure I have moved on and past it, but she is preparing me, in case he shows up at my door. It's a long story, @sokillme, but my h bounced back and forth for 8 years from being home to being homeless and practically living in his truck to living with a group of, well, addicts in one form or another. I know he drinks, a lot, as a form of self-medication, and his OW is an alcoholic, drunk by 7 pm and sleeping it off every day until noon or 2 pm. 

My h is a Vietnam vet, and I have always been concerned about him ending up homeless. There are host of issues related to his well being and his family is 1200 miles away in a northeastern state, and I feel a responsibility to them, as they were my family for 20 years too, to at least be prepared to put him in a facility or help him if the opportunity presents itself and he finally concedes he needs the help, in consultation with them.

But to be my husband again? Nope.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Yes, but that's not normally a reason to be so emotionally insecure. If he were cheating on her first then I'd understand the insecurity. Hence why I asked. Lots of relationships fail. Kids or no kids. That's not a reason not to trust your new partner. There has to be more to it. And he doesn't need to give the answers if he doesn't want to. But it's something he needs to think about.



From what I read it wasn't like, this isn't working out. It was like one day there the next day gone type bailed. That would make most people insecure because of the uncertainty of it all.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> I don't. But he clearly had a host of physical and mental health issues that caused a breakdown in him, and his friends are worried about him and the conditions he currently lives in. My therapist is sure I have moved on and past it, but she is preparing me, in case he shows up at my door. It's a long story, @sokillme, but my h bounced back and forth for 8 years from being home to being homeless and practically living in his truck to living with a group of, well, addicts in one form or another. I know he drinks, a lot, as a form of self-medication, and his OW is an alcoholic, drunk by 7 pm and sleeping it off every day until noon or 2 pm.
> 
> My h is a Vietnam vet, and I have always been concerned about him ending up homeless. There are host of issues related to his well being and his family is 1200 miles away in a northeastern state, and I feel a responsibility to them, as they were my family for 20 years too, to at least be prepared to put him in a facility or help him if the opportunity presents itself and he finally concedes he needs the help, in consultation with them.
> 
> But to be my husband again? Nope.


This makes more sense your other post made it sound like you were saying 'There is always hope". I understand after 20 years still feeling connected. But it is wise not to let the man have any power over you when he has such deep issues. That is a sad story. I feel for you, and if it is PTSD him as well, though he is an ass for cheating.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

And there is the larger issue of the fact that, given her insecurities, she may have doubts or concerns about her own role in the father of the kid bailing. She may not have contributed at all, he may have been azzwipe, but it may be that she has unresolved issues of her own, about herself, and a possible perceived inability to maintain a relationship. My h is like that. I am sure he abandoned our relationship because he thought he needed to do it before I did, because he thought it was inevitable. But then again, if any woman doesn't make HIM the center of her universe, he perceives himself as having been abandoned emotionally. It is a vicious cycle.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> This makes more sense your other post made it sound like you were saying 'There is always hope". I understand after 20 years still feeling connected. But it is wise not to let the man have any power over you when he has such deep issues. That is a sad story. I feel for you, and if it is PTSD him as well, though he is an ass for cheating.


It is PTSD, losing a friend in the war, and it is the Gulf War syndrome, which affected my stepfather in a different way (physically - his muscles are turning to stone and he's trapped in his body and is in a VA institution), and it is bi polar depression (he doesn't have the flights of fancy as frequency on the high mania end and lives in perpetual depression), a heart attack in April of 2015, surgery to bypass an aneurysm, almost dying on the table . . . and my therapist thinks he is borderline personality disorder. He's a mess. I care about him and would be happy to help him help himself, but he has no power over me. If he showed up at my door, my knees might buckle a little bit, since he was such a gorgeous man, and my best friend and a really sweet guy, but his cheating changed his "sweetness." I saw into his MLC monster and the darkness wasn't pretty. It's an age-old morality story that if you don't grapple with your darkness while you're young, you will when you're old. But I'd recover and straighten my knees and stand up tall within a few minutes, and I wouldn't consider being his partner again, just a friend.

My hope is that he will get well and have the opportunity to live the last chapter of his life as a whole person, not this fractured splintered soul that he became as I helplessly watched him disintegrate. I want the best for him, but sadly, if he decides that I'm the best for him, he won't be able to have that. He had it and squandered it. He's got mental health issues but he is still morally and ethically responsible for his choices and he made them. Rather than manage his feelings, he let them manage, and derail him, and destroy our marriage. But I don't hold a grudge.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I know it ridiculous but it got out of hand.As careers go I have a very successful software business and my leasing deals alone bring in a lot of money.My F has about twenty employees and makes plenty of money too.
> It's our personal life that sucks.


OK so you have run a successful business, you have clients, you understand what it is to be proactive and assertive, negotiation and so forth. What would happen if you took your emotional (passive, fearful, gossipy, no plan, no leadership) mentality and ported that to your business. Not good right? So why do you run your personally life like that. 

One other thing, how much dating around have you done. You are from all accounts you are a good looking young-ish guy who has a successful software business. You will be in high demand. You may want to date around and figure out what you really want in a mate. You will have choices. You also will be negotiating this from a position of strength. I like you was not one to sleep around with a lot of people, so don't think this is me telling you, "hey you can have a lot of sex if you want". That is not my point. 


Your personal life doesn't have to be like this. A more mature woman becomes a asset to your life, a team mate. Makes your life easier and part of the joy of your life is helping her. Your greatest role is being her teammate. This is what you should be striving for.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TeddieG said:


> It is PTSD, losing a friend in the war, and it is the Gulf War syndrome, which affected my stepfather in a different way (physically - his muscles are turning to stone and he's trapped in his body and is in a VA institution), and it is bi polar depression (he doesn't have the flights of fancy as frequency on the high mania end and lives in perpetual depression), a heart attack in April of 2015, surgery to bypass an aneurysm, almost dying on the table . . . and my therapist thinks he is borderline personality disorder. He's a mess. I care about him and would be happy to help him help himself, but he has no power over me. If he showed up at my door, my knees might buckle a little bit, since he was such a gorgeous man, and my best friend and a really sweet guy, but his cheating changed his "sweetness." I saw into his MLC monster and the darkness wasn't pretty. It's an age-old morality story that if you don't grapple with your darkness while you're young, you will when you're old. But I'd recover and straighten my knees and stand up tall within a few minutes, and I wouldn't consider being his partner again, just a friend.
> 
> My hope is that he will get well and have the opportunity to live the last chapter of his life as a whole person, not this fractured splintered soul that he became as I helplessly watched him disintegrate. I want the best for him, but sadly, if he decides that I'm the best for him, he won't be able to have that. He had it and squandered it. He's got mental health issues but he is still morally and ethically responsible for his choices and he made them. Rather than manage his feelings, he let them manage, and derail him, and destroy our marriage. But I don't hold a grudge.


Sounds like your therapist has done a good job.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> OK so you have run a successful business, you have clients, you understand what it is to be proactive and assertive, negotiation and so forth. What would happen if you took your emotional (passive, fearful, gossipy, no plan, no leadership) mentality and ported that to your business. Not good right? So why do you run your personally life like that.
> 
> One other thing, how much dating around have you done. You are from all accounts you are a good looking young-ish guy who has a successful software business. You will be in high demand. You may want to date around and figure out what you really want in a mate. You will have choices. You also will be negotiating this from a position of strength. I like you was not one to sleep around with a lot of people, so don't think this is me telling you, "hey you can have a lot of sex if you want". That is not my point.
> 
> 
> Your personal life doesn't have to be like this. A more mature woman becomes a asset to your life, a team mate. Makes your life easier and part of the joy of your life is helping her. You greatest role is being her teammate. This is what you should be striving for.


If you read my earlier posts you will see that I slept around quite a lot.A previous poster called it pre selection when a woman sees a man with a beautiful woman she wants him too.Myself and Ally did this all the time in bars and night clubs.We would go in together and after a while she would go on to a gay bar or to meet whichever girlfriend she had( before Sam).I used to get hit on every night and I will freely admit I had the time of my life.But the two girls left and my parents died and for a while I just lost interest in dating or hooking up.The day I met my f I had no intention of dating anyone but it was so funny that I brought her for a drink and here we are.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sokillme said:


> Sounds like your therapist has done a good job.


Indeed.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, I don't buy drinks for women I don't know, either. But that was the start for my LTR.... a drink, out of the ordinary.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> Andy, I don't buy drinks for women I don't know, either. But that was the start for my LTR.... a drink, out of the ordinary.


Hi TaDor,I know I told you I would post about how we met but I'm afraid somebody would recognise us and then the s*** would really hit the fan.
Its not looking good anyway and I think we will be splitting up pretty soon.
My one regret is I should have stood up to her long ago and we would not be where we are now.
I decided against going to the UK to see my brother,he is only a brother in name anyway.
I hope you and your wife are getting on OK.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

What has helped you make the decision to split instead of reconcile? Has she said/done anything else? How did the counsellor go?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> What has helped you make the decision to split instead of reconcile? Has she said/done anything else? How did the counsellor go?


She asked me to make a list of good and bad things in our relationship.The bad list was very long.
The apartment hunting went nowhere.
The counsellors question about if Ally had been straight really bothers me.Someone earlier in the thread mentioned not to "settle",I think I may have been doing just that.
I am really down at the moment and realise the only person I can trust is the one person I cannot reveal my feelings to.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I don't think anyone is still reading about my problems and I wouldn't blame you.I have just re read the whole thread and I come across as a right *******.
Me and my F have broken up today and I think it is for good.All the talk of changing,renting an apt,cutting back on work to look after the boy has all been forgotten about,Even her mother who I thought was sensible has backtracked.
My F decided to hire a childminder who would look after the boy in her own home all day and then my F would collect him and bring him back to her parents.When her mother heard this she said she would do the job if my F paid her the same as the childminder was charging.So much for her starting to be a full time mom.
There is no more mention about her moving out to her own place.When I brought it up her mother said why waste the rental money.
They seem to think that we would just go back to how it was.I told her today I wanted my house keys back and I thought we should separate for a while.She didn't seem to bothered to be honest she probably thinks I will come running back shortly.
I am going to Scotland for a while as that is where my parents are buried and I haven't visited their grave very often.I won't be telling my brother I'm in the UK as he will expect a visit.
I can't believe that just over two weeks ago I was looking forward to being married with a wife and son and now I am back where I was five years ago.
My counsellor felt that if I stayed with my f then she really couldn't help me much more.She feels that the relationship is a perfect recipe for divorce with one or both of us likely to cheat.I have read a lot of threads on cheating and when I see the heartbreak caused then I want to stay as far from marriage as possible.This forum has really helped me this last couple of weeks and some of the posters come across as very kind people.So thank you for all the help.


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Very sorry about your breakup. Probably for the best and I admire your strength.

It really sounds like your fiancée is just not marriage material yet. She has a long way to go. She really takes little responsibility for her son, still likes to go clubbing, and relies on toxic friends for support.

I think you made a wise decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, don't toss the idea of marriage away because you nearly married the wrong woman. You may find the right one, you may not. Just move on and see where you are later. Could be you meet someone who makes you want to club her over the head and drag her to the alter, could be that you decide bachelorhood is lovely, could be you decide to live together forever and never marry. The future is unknown and you're smarting from a break up and your feelings may very well change once you've healed a bit.

It's not surprising she has no real interest in moving out on her own and that her mother backed down and it's pretty much gone back to business as usual over at your ex's parents house. They raised that monster, after all.

Ah, well, she's the next poor saps problem.


----------



## notmyrealname4

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

.


----------



## Hope1964

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I am sorry you haven't found the right woman yet, but don't give up. For now, enjoy being single. Learn from your almost mistake - you're a wiser man because of it


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My counselor felt that if I stayed with my f then she really couldn't help me much more.She feels that the relationship is a perfect recipe for divorce with one or both of us likely to cheat.


I couldn't agree more. Better hold onto that counselor.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My one regret is I should have stood up to her long ago and we would not be where we are now.


Lesson learned by many men here at TAM.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Andy, don't toss the idea of marriage away because you nearly married the wrong woman. You may find the right one, you may not. Just move on and see where you are later. Could be you meet someone who makes you want to club her over the head and drag her to the alter, could be that you decide bachelorhood is lovely, could be you decide to live together forever and never marry. The future is unknown and you're smarting from a break up and your feelings may very well change once you've healed a bit.
> 
> It's not surprising she has no real interest in moving out on her own and that her mother backed down and it's pretty much gone back to business as usual over at your ex's parents house. They raised that monster, after all.
> 
> Ah, well, she's the next poor saps problem.


I like all of your posts but your last sentence made me laugh.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> I couldn't agree more. Better hold onto that counselor.


Well she's four hundred an hour and I've had five hours worth so she would want to be worth it.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I like all of your posts but your last sentence made me laugh.


Laughing is good for you. So is petting a dog. Just sayin.

uppy:

Seriously, though, if you have access to a dog, go pet it. Petting dogs releases happy chemicals the same way hugging a friend or cuddling a baby do. I have gotten through some rough times huffing puppy breath.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Im glad you have come to a decision. It will be hard. But much less harder then in 10 years with potentially a joint mortgage, more kids, a resentful teenager... 5 years is a short frame in your comparatively long life. You will find someone/something that makes you happy. Maybe tell her that this is permanent? Although I don't know if she will believe you, based on what you have said.


----------



## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Hope1964 said:


> I am sorry you haven't found the right woman yet, but don't give up. For now, enjoy being single. Learn from your almost mistake - you're a wiser man because of it


 I agree with Hope1964. Don't give up. My fiancé cheated on me, but I didn't have the online resources over 25 years ago you have today, and I didn't have access to therapy. I treated every woman as if they were the same as my ex. Where did that lead me? To be 49 and alone.

Learn from what you have experienced. Realize there is a woman out there that will make you happy, and you will make her happy. Keep moving forward. Keep a positive outlook. Use the wisdom you gained from this failed relationship, to recognize traits in a woman you want for a positive relationship. I wish you all the good fortunes in the world moving forward.


----------



## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I'm sorry you had to go through all this, but you will be *much* able to handle future relationships. The "school of hard knocks" and all that. You'll be able to spot these kinds of problems much earlier.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



wilson said:


> I'm sorry you had to go through all this, but you will be *much* able to handle future relationships. The "school of hard knocks" and all that. You'll be able to spot these kinds of problems much earlier.


I think I'll stay clear of women altogether for a while.The more threads I read of cheating spouses the more I realise that my counsellor was right.All the red flags were there and I have a funny feeling I was going to be left minding the kid because I don't think she gives a damn about him.I have been fooled by this woman and I am very down.Thankfully we had no kids ourselves because in a divorce she would have got a fortune off me.
I am wondering is it actually possible for two people in a relationship to be honest always,because the threads I have been reading don't suggest it.It seems everybody caught are very sorry but then do the same thing again so they are only sorry they got caught and will be far more careful next time.All this talk of voice recorders hidden in houses and cars,fitting apps on smartphones to record calls,sat nav hidden in cars is the stuff of nightmares.
Sorry rant over I'm just kind of down and I have nobody to talk too.Thats my own fault though I seem to crave female company and my old guy friends were uncomfortable with it.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think I'll stay clear of women altogether for a while.The more threads I read of cheating spouses the more I realise that my counsellor was right.All the red flags were there and I have a funny feeling I was going to be left minding the kid because I don't think she gives a damn about him.I have been fooled by this woman and I am very bitter.Thankfully we had no kids ourselves because in a divorce she would have got a fortune off me.
> I am wondering is it actually possible for two people in a relationship to be honest always,because the threads I have been reading don't suggest it.It seems everybody caught are very sorry but then do the same thing again so they are only sorry they got caught and will be far more careful next time.All this talk of voice recorders hidden in houses and cars,fitting apps on smartphones to record calls,sat nav hidden in cars is the stuff of nightmares.
> Sorry rant over I'm just kind of down and I have nobody to talk too.Thats my own fault though I seem to crave female company and my old guy friends were uncomfortable with it.


Then don't be blind when the person you are dating shows the red flags. They were present in your last relationship but like most young naive men you chose to ignore them. 

My friend you have been given a lifeline.

The next time a person you are "dating" demonstrates red flag 
behavior end it right away.


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Anyway she wants me to visit them in London and stay for as long as I like,she thinks it's time me and my brother spent time together without any kids around and maybe we can be a family again.I can do my job anywhere there is an Internet connection so maybe a couple of weeks away might be a good idea.


If you change your mind about going to see him, whatever you do, under no circumstances allow your girlfriend stay at your apartment while you are gone. She may appear desperate, but don’t fall for it.

After reading all of your comments on this thread, I have to say that your girlfriend is not a healthy person. You cannot have a healthy marriage with someone who doesn’t have your back. She does not have your back.

She tricked you in front of her friends and employees to get a rise out of you over the tattoo and it backfired on her. She didn’t think you’d do anything, because you are so “laid back.” What she really meant was that she has you under her thumb. You have given other examples where she is the instigator, but she turns it back on you in blame shifting and projection.

I think if she has cheated on you numerous times and may possibly still be cheating on you.

She tells you that the reason she is with you is that you will take care of her and her boy. When she told you that, she was saying that she is somehow settling for you. She’s afraid of being alone and that’s her main focus with you. This means she is using you. She does not have your back. She does not have your best interests at heart.

She does not take her mothering role seriously. Her parents are trying to stop enabling this. She would not make a good mother to your children.

She owns and operates a business where people do not respect each other. Her employees saying they want a piece of you is highly disrespectful in any situation, but for an employee to talk to her boss that way shows that there is a complete lack of boundaries and respect in her place of business. Your girlfriend is in charge and has therefore caused that kind of toxic workplace environment. Toxic people create toxic environments.

You have said numerous times that things are not looking good between the two of you, but you also seem to be unable to stop seeing her, so hopefully you will break up with her and work in resolving the issues in your life that have led you to be so easily used and disrespected so you can avoid it in the future. I also hope that you learn why you are unable to have close, healthy relationships with anyone other than a lesbian who used to help you pick up women for sex.

Quite frankly, the story you have told is full of ridiculous scenarios with many twists and turns. Wealth and sex included. No real violence so far, just a yelling argument. Lots of drama. This is not how healthy people lives their real lives. This is how immature people or people in novels live their lives.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> If you change your mind about going to see him, whatever you do, under no circumstances allow your girlfriend stay at your apartment while you are gone. She may appear desperate, but don’t fall for it.
> 
> After reading all of your comments on this thread, I have to say that your girlfriend is not a healthy person. You cannot have a healthy marriage with someone who doesn’t have your back. She does not have your back.
> 
> She tricked you in front of her friends and employees to get a rise out of you over the tattoo and it backfired on her. She didn’t think you’d do anything, because you are so “laid back.” What she really meant was that she has you under her thumb. You have given other examples where she is the instigator, but she turns it back on you in blame shifting and projection.
> 
> I think if she has cheated on you numerous times and may possibly still be cheating on you.
> She tells you that the reason she is with you is that you will take care of her and her boy. When she told you that, she was saying that she is somehow settling for you. She’s afraid of being alone and that’s her main focus with you. This means she is using you. She does not have your back. She does not have your best interests at heart.
> She does not take her mothering role seriously. Her parents are trying to stop enabling this. She would not make a good mother to your children.
> 
> She owns and operates a business where people do respect each other. Her employees saying they want a piece of you is highly disrespectful in any situation, but for an employee to talk to her boss that way shows that there is a complete lack of boundaries and respect in her place of business. Your girlfriend is in charge and has therefore caused that kind of toxic workplace environment. Toxic people create toxic environments.
> 
> You have said numerous times that things are not looking good between the two of you, but you also seem to be unable to stop seeing her, so hopefully you will break up with her and work in resolving the issues in your life that have led you to be so easily used and disrespected so you can avoid it in the future. I also hope that you learn why you are unable to have close, healthy relationships with anyone other than a lesbian who used to help you pick up women for sex.
> 
> Quite frankly, the story you have told is full of ridiculous scenarios with many twists and turns. Wealth and sex included. No real violence so far, just a yelling argument. Lots of drama. This is not how healthy people lives their real lives. This is how immature people or people in novels live their lives.



Cynthia sees them


----------



## Lloyd Dobler

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think I'll stay clear of women altogether for a while.The more threads I read of cheating spouses the more I realise that my counsellor was right.All the red flags were there and I have a funny feeling I was going to be left minding the kid because I don't think she gives a damn about him.I have been fooled by this woman and I am very down.Thankfully we had no kids ourselves because in a divorce she would have got a fortune off me.
> I am wondering is it actually possible for two people in a relationship to be honest always,because the threads I have been reading don't suggest it.It seems everybody caught are very sorry but then do the same thing again so they are only sorry they got caught and will be far more careful next time.All this talk of voice recorders hidden in houses and cars,fitting apps on smartphones to record calls,sat nav hidden in cars is the stuff of nightmares.
> Sorry rant over I'm just kind of down and I have nobody to talk too.Thats my own fault though I seem to crave female company and my old guy friends were uncomfortable with it.


Andy,
I haven't commented on your thread, but I've been reading it avidly. I think you're right to stay away from relationships for a bit. I would highly recommend doing some things that allow you to socialize with other guys - think along the lines of joining a softball team, meetup group for hiking, anything you can think of where guys congregate. I think you need to develop one or more good guy friends before you get involved with another woman. Having a good bunch of guys to rely on will serve you well moving forward. Good luck.


----------



## chatabox

*Fiancées tattoo.*



Lloyd Dobler said:


> Andy,
> 
> I haven't commented on your thread, but I've been reading it avidly. I think you're right to stay away from relationships for a bit. I would highly recommend doing some things that allow you to socialize with other guys - think along the lines of joining a softball team, meetup group for hiking, anything you can think of where guys congregate. I think you need to develop one or more good guy friends before you get involved with another woman. Having a good bunch of guys to rely on will serve you well moving forward. Good luck.




I agree. Guys will pick up red flags on a new woman too, and hopefully tell it to him straight. 

Andy - you say your worried about future relationships because of reading here. Please don't be. Remember - this is where people go when they are worried about their relationship. 
There is going to be a high concentration of topics about cheating and divorce, simply because of the type of place this is. There are many success stories in real life, and you will find yours. Take some time out for you first.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Laughing is good for you. So is petting a dog. Just sayin.
> 
> uppy:
> 
> Seriously, though, if you have access to a dog, go pet it. Petting dogs releases happy chemicals the same way hugging a friend or cuddling a baby do. I have gotten through some rough times huffing puppy breath.


It's funny you should say that.One of my neighbours has a seeing eye dog and sometimes I bring the dog lake or the woods and I always enjoy myself.(not as much as the dog seems to though)Hooch is smarter than half the people I know and he doesn't like my ex.(seriously).


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It's funny you should say that.One of my neighbours has a seeing eye dog and sometimes I bring the dog out to the beach or the woods and I always enjoy myself.(not as much as the dog seems to though)Hooch is smarter than half the people I know and he doesn't like my ex.(seriously).


Dogs are perceptive and have great instincts. The more you say, the more I think you should be thankful you are out of that engagement. I don't trust anyone a dog doesn't like.


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well she's four hundred an hour and I've had five hours worth so she would want to be worth it.


I had a feeling the time with her would be worth the cost. I know this is a painful and hard decision for you, and I'm proud of you.


----------



## Lostinthought61

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think I'll stay clear of women altogether for a while.The more threads I read of cheating spouses the more I realise that my counsellor was right.All the red flags were there and I have a funny feeling I was going to be left minding the kid because I don't think she gives a damn about him.I have been fooled by this woman and I am very down.Thankfully we had no kids ourselves because in a divorce she would have got a fortune off me.
> I am wondering is it actually possible for two people in a relationship to be honest always,because the threads I have been reading don't suggest it.It seems everybody caught are very sorry but then do the same thing again so they are only sorry they got caught and will be far more careful next time.All this talk of voice recorders hidden in houses and cars,fitting apps on smartphones to record calls,sat nav hidden in cars is the stuff of nightmares.
> Sorry rant over I'm just kind of down and I have nobody to talk too.Thats my own fault though I seem to crave female company and my old guy friends were uncomfortable with it.


Regardless of who you marry Andy...remember PRE-NUP....what is yours before marriage should stay that way in case of a Divorce.


----------



## Married&Confused

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001 Gur math a thèid leat


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Married&Confused said:


> @Andy1001 Gur math a thèid leat


Long time since I heard Scots Gaelic,but thank you.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Sorry, it didn't work out, but she did NOT seem the mother type. When you are ready, go out - have fun with meeting new people, NOT just women. Get some guy friends.

Not everyone CHEATS.... About 60% do, but that maybe climbing. 

A lot to learn.

The worse thing is, the kid most likely had looked at you as a father figure. But it seems she kept him away from you a lot (red flag).

Best thing is for you to enjoy life... you will meet a woman that won't cause arguments and insults.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

About 60% cheat
That is such a sad number. 
I think if you had doubts now it would only get worse when you are married.
I think you made the right decision for you.


Sent from my iPhone


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> Sorry, it didn't work out, but she did NOT seem the mother type. When you are ready, go out - have fun with meeting new people, NOT just women. Get some guy friends.
> 
> Not everyone CHEATS.... About 60% do, but that maybe climbing.
> 
> A lot to learn.
> 
> The worse thing is, the kid most likely had looked at you as a father figure. But it seems she kept him away from you a lot (red flag).
> 
> Best thing is for you to enjoy life... you will meet a woman that won't cause arguments and insults.


60%!!.Thats almost half!.


I'm joking.

That is really depressing though,why are so many people cheating on their (supposedly) loved ones.
As I said earlier my parents were married over forty years and my brother thirty and counting.
I think that's why I was so blinkered throughout my engagement,I just wanted what they had.
My parents were happy their entire life and my brother is still as much in love with his wife as he 
was the day they married.She must be some kind of Saint to put up with that prick all this time.
Well it's three days and no contact,I got the locks changed on my house just to be on the safe side
because when she realises that I won't be around at the weekend she will go ape.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Because it's EASY to cheat.
Because of the work environment, that feeds infidelity. So as of today 85%+ of affairs start in the workplace.

This is not 40 years ago. And even YOU don't know if one of your parents cheated.

Today's marketing and entertainment makes "affairs" a fun harmless thing. Younger generation...


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> If you change your mind about going to see him, whatever you do, under no circumstances allow your girlfriend stay at your apartment while you are gone. She may appear desperate, but don’t fall for it.
> 
> After reading all of your comments on this thread, I have to say that your girlfriend is not a healthy person. You cannot have a healthy marriage with someone who doesn’t have your back. She does not have your back.
> 
> She tricked you in front of her friends and employees to get a rise out of you over the tattoo and it backfired on her. She didn’t think you’d do anything, because you are so “laid back.” What she really meant was that she has you under her thumb. You have given other examples where she is the instigator, but she turns it back on you in blame shifting and projection.
> 
> I think if she has cheated on you numerous times and may possibly still be cheating on you.
> 
> She tells you that the reason she is with you is that you will take care of her and her boy. When she told you that, she was saying that she is somehow settling for you. She’s afraid of being alone and that’s her main focus with you. This means she is using you. She does not have your back. She does not have your best interests at heart.
> 
> She does not take her mothering role seriously. Her parents are trying to stop enabling this. She would not make a good mother to your children.
> 
> She owns and operates a business where people do not respect each other. Her employees saying they want a piece of you is highly disrespectful in any situation, but for an employee to talk to her boss that way shows that there is a complete lack of boundaries and respect in her place of business. Your girlfriend is in charge and has therefore caused that kind of toxic workplace environment. Toxic people create toxic environments.
> 
> You have said numerous times that things are not looking good between the two of you, but you also seem to be unable to stop seeing her, so hopefully you will break up with her and work in resolving the issues in your life that have led you to be so easily used and disrespected so you can avoid it in the future. I also hope that you learn why you are unable to have close, healthy relationships with anyone other than a lesbian who used to help you pick up women for sex.
> 
> Quite frankly, the story you have told is full of ridiculous scenarios with many twists and turns. Wealth and sex included. No real violence so far, just a yelling argument. Lots of drama. This is not how healthy people lives their real lives. This is how immature people or people in novels live their lives.


You are one smart lady.After almost a week of no contact(on my side) my f has asked if she and the boy can move into my house while I'm away.Im not sure what you meant but I told her it was out of the question.Would you please explain to me how you guessed she would do this.Her excuse is it would be easier than renting as there is already a room in the house that he used plus some games etc that he played with.
I told her if I sell the house she can have first refusal but she doesn't have that sort of money really.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Interesting. So, she told you it was about money, but didn't even say she still had feelings or wanted to be there when you returned. Notice, she said it would be easier for her and her child. Cynthia made an educated guess because of all the scenarios you posted. You are about 9 or 10 on her priority list. You are behind her child, parents, friends coworkers, job, her feelings, her pride etc etc etc.

Cut her loose before you are guilt tripped into marriage because of her son.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Interesting. So, she told you it was about money, but didn't even say she still had feelings or wanted to be there when you returned. Notice, she said it would be easier for her and her child. Cynthia made an educated guess because of all the scenarios you posted. You are about 9 or 10 on her priority list. You are behind her child, parents, friends coworkers, job, her feelings, her pride etc etc etc.
> 
> Cut her loose before you are guilt tripped into marriage because of her son.


There is no chance of marriage believe me.I admit this last week has been hell,she constantly tried to contact me despite agreeing no contact for a week.I almost gave in late Saturday night as I was really lonely but I didn't.
I should have made it clearer it was her mother who suggested that while I'm away she moves into my house,but I'd say it was at my exf suggestion.


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You are one smart lady.After almost a week of no contact(on my side) my f has asked if she and the boy can move into my house while I'm away.Im not sure what you meant but I told her it was out of the question.Would you please explain to me how you guessed she would do this.Her excuse is it would be easier than renting as there is already a room in the house that he used plus some games etc that he played with.
> I told her if I sell the house she can have first refusal but she doesn't have that sort of money really.


I'm sorry, Andy. She strikes me as a gold digger. From the things you posted, it appears that she is trying to snag you and is trying to find a way to dig in deep enough that you would have a lot of trouble removing her from your home and your life. If she moved in, you'd end up having to call the police to get her out and would end up in court.

She wants what you have. She doesn't really want you.

It feels personal, but I don't think it is. I think that's how she operates. She uses people until they are empty. That is what is happening with her parents. Even her own parents have had enough. They were probably thrilled when you showed up to take her off their hands and now they are just done. So she sees a vacant spot and tries to weasel her way in. I hope she doesn't have a key to your place. Consider getting a house sitter to protect the place while you are gone. Tell them that they are to call 911 if she shows up. If she had keys, change the locks today.




Andy1001 said:


> There is no chance of marriage believe me.I admit this last week has been hell,she constantly tried to contact me despite agreeing no contact for a week.I almost gave in late Saturday night as I was really lonely but I didn't.
> I should have made it clearer it was her mother who suggested that while I'm away she moves into my house,but I'd say it was at my exf suggestion.


Does she realize that it's not only the wedding that's been called off, but the relationship is over? Have you clearly told her that you are done with her and do not want to have anything to do with her from now on? If you haven't been 100% clear, it is time to do that now. I'm not usually one for texting a breakup, but in this case I'd make an exception. Then block her number.


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You know her request was crazy, right?

Did you break up with her totally?
If so, this request is his looney.

It really hurts beyond reason when you break off something this deep--- heck, you almost married the girl.

But the longer you go no contact, the easier it will be to handle. Talking to her will put you back at square one pain level. So I advise against it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeddieG

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> I'm sorry, Andy. She strikes me as a gold digger. From the things you posted, it appears that she is trying to snag you and is trying to find a way to dig in deep enough that you would have a lot of trouble removing her from your home and your life. If she moved in, you'd end up having to call the police to get her out and would end up in court.
> 
> She wants what you have. She doesn't really want you.
> 
> It feels personal, but I don't think it is. I think that's how she operates. She uses people until they are empty. That is what is happening with her parents. Even her own parents have had enough. They were probably thrilled when you showed up to take her off their hands and now they are just done. So she sees a vacant spot and tries to weasel her way in. I hope she doesn't have a key to your place. Consider getting a house sitter to protect the place while you are gone. Tell them that they are to call 911 if she shows up. If she had keys, change the locks today.
> 
> 
> 
> Does she realize that it's not only the wedding that's been called off, but the relationship is over? Have you clearly told her that you are done with her and do not want to have anything to do with her from now on? If you haven't been 100% clear, it is time to do that now. I'm not usually one for texting a breakup, but in this case I'd make an exception. Then block her number.


This is great advice. This is really really good.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, I think you should stop worrying about the girl thing right now and start to concentrate on why you have no one in the world that you in your words "can trust". You need some guy friends, that you can trust. This would help you my friend. No matter who you are with if that person is the only one that you trust that is too much responsibility. It will put too much pressure on the relationship and could cause you to do things that are not in your self interest. You need to figure out why it is that you have no close guy friends, and why you are always drawn to women. 

After you get that sorted out, when the time comes then you will be ready. Remember the right woman is an asset to your life.

You've got a long life ahead of you bud so don't give up. Good days are ahead.

Also don't feel too bad you didn't marry this Casey Anthony wanabe.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> I'm sorry, Andy. She strikes me as a gold digger. From the things you posted, it appears that she is trying to snag you and is trying to find a way to dig in deep enough that you would have a lot of trouble removing her from your home and your life. If she moved in, you'd end up having to call the police to get her out and would end up in court.
> 
> She wants what you have. She doesn't really want you.
> 
> It feels personal, but I don't think it is. I think that's how she operates. She uses people until they are empty. That is what is happening with her parents. Even her own parents have had enough. They were probably thrilled when you showed up to take her off their hands and now they are just done. So she sees a vacant spot and tries to weasel her way in. I hope she doesn't have a key to your place. Consider getting a house sitter to protect the place while you are gone. Tell them that they are to call 911 if she shows up. If she had keys, change the locks today.
> 
> 
> 
> Does she realize that it's not only the wedding that's been called off, but the relationship is over? Have you clearly told her that you are done with her and do not want to have anything to do with her from now on? If you haven't been 100% clear, it is time to do that now. I'm not usually one for texting a breakup, but in this case I'd make an exception. Then block her number.


I have changed the locks since last week even though she had given me back my keys.My house is fitted with the most up to date smart technology money can buy with my phone I can drop shutters on every door and window,turn off electricity,gas and water and it is in a private estate so if she tried to get in she would be arrested for trespassing.I don't think it will come to that though.
I have texted,emailed and left voice mails to tell her we are done.It hasn't stopped her "friends" from sniffing around though.I am seriously thinking of selling my house though and moving somewhere else.I can work from anywhere in the world once I have a phone and Internet connection.Problem is I don't know many people outside of where I live so I would be even lonelier than I am now.
I can't remember who first told me to get IC but it was the best advice I have ever had.My counsellor cuts right to the chase,no bull****,and I don't think she is too impressed with me or my lifestyle.But she is less impressed with my former lifestyle so maybe she sees some hope for me.I,would hate to be her husband trying to explain where he was until three in the morning though lol.She was adamant that if I continued to see my exf then our sessions were over.She is trying to push me on my relationship with my brother but I think that is a lost cause.She has backed off(for now anyway)with questions about Ally and I'm glad because I do not want to go there.I am still going to take a trip to Scotland and may stay in Europe for a while but I don't want to stop my counselling sessions yet as I see thing far clearly now and realise I was been taken for a ride by my exf.


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Block her. Block her "friends" too. Get rid of the lot of them. What a bunch of clowns. Good grief. If those are the kinds of people she hangs out with, that tells you a lot about her. That right there is enough to know you have made the right decision.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Tell her straight "why would I let me ex live in my house?" And it may help her seeing the word "ex" on the screen, to make it more cemented that your done


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Tell her straight "why would I let me ex live in my house?" And it may help her seeing the word "ex" on the screen, to make it more cemented that your done


That is a great idea,thank you.


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Except that if you have blocked her and all her crazy friends you will not be able to text her and you won't ever hear from her again or have to deal with her antics.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> Except that if you have blocked her and all her crazy friends you will not be able to text her and you won't ever hear from her again or have to deal with her antics.


This forum is full of good advice.Unfortunately a lot of it is contradictory.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> This forum is full of good advice.Unfortunately a lot of it is contradictory.




You need to pick and choose what is relevant to your specific situation. Some people can completely block and delete, then move on in the blink of an eye. Others look at the lost investment (5 years in your case) and can't quite switch off the feelings as easily. Both aren't wrong. It's just different personalities deal in different ways.


----------



## Mclane

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> This forum is full of good advice.Unfortunately a lot of it is contradictory.


Which is to be expected when you request feedback from a large number of individuals who respond based on their own personal experiences.


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> This forum is full of good advice.Unfortunately a lot of it is contradictory.


True.
If you want to go no contact, blocking her would certainly help, but you keep engaging her. If you don't engage her in the first place, you won't have to answer her. Consider what it is that you want. Do you want no contact or do you want to keep dragging this along?


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@CynthiaDe gets the gold star for this thread. Her posts and read of your exgf have been spot on.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> True.
> If you want to go no contact, blocking her would certainly help, but you keep engaging her. If you don't engage her in the first place, you won't have to answer her. Consider what it is that you want. Do you want no contact or do you want to keep dragging this along?


I haven't spoken to her in over a week.It was her mother who rung me about her moving in but I'd say it was at my exf's suggestion.I have tried every way I know to get it clear to her it is over but she keeps texting me on other peoples phones.At this stage I have considered using an answering service for my current number and buying a new phone just for work colleagues.


----------



## Mclane

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I haven't spoken to her in over a week.It was her mother who rung me about her moving in but I'd say it was at my exf's suggestion.I have tried every way I know to get it clear to her it is over but she keeps texting me on other peoples phones.At this stage I have considered using an answering service for my current number and buying a new phone just for work colleagues.


At this stage consider blocking her mother and anyone else whose phone she uses to get in touch with you.

I know you're reading this and wondering why it never occurred to you to take this very simple step.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Mclane said:


> At this stage consider blocking her mother and anyone else whose phone she uses to get in touch with you.
> 
> I know you're reading this and wondering why it never occurred to you to take this very simple step.


I can't block a number until I get a call or text from it.Thats the point I'm making.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Back when ypiu and her had that conversation and she asked you if you had ever cheated on her, she may have well been jealous of Allison. 

My take is that she was transferring guilt. Bet you a haggis she screwed around on you at some point.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Banned-It.45 said:


> Back when ypiu and her had that conversation and she asked you if you had ever cheated on her, she may have well been jealous of Allison.
> 
> My take is that she was transferring guilt. Bet you a haggis she screwed around on you at some point.


At this stage I don’t care


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I haven't spoken to her in over a week.It was her mother who rung me about her moving in but I'd say it was at my exf's suggestion.I have tried every way I know to get it clear to her it is over but she keeps texting me on other peoples phones.At this stage I have considered using an answering service for my current number and buying a new phone just for work colleagues.


That's harassment. I'm sorry she's turned out to be such a psycho. 

I'm sorry, but it looks like you are right and you'll have to get a new number.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> That's harassment. I'm sorry she's turned out to be such a psycho.
> 
> I'm sorry, but it looks like you are right and you'll have to get a new number.


89 text messages since yesterday.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> 89 text messages since yesterday.


She's kicking herself. So close to the wedding and she screws up her life with the foolish tattoo idea.


----------



## Cynthia

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> 89 text messages since yesterday.


Have you told her to stop?
This is outrageous. I would be angry if someone did that to me. 
At this point, it would be easier to have your number changed. What a pain in the butt.
I bet you never expected this. Thank God you averted the disaster of marrying her. I can only imagine what kind of marriage you would have had. Wow. What a blessing to realize this now and not after you signed the marriage certificate.


----------



## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> 89 text messages since yesterday.


Do not respond to anything. Keep blocking numbers. The longer she goes without getting a response, the more likely she'll give up and move on.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I would have nasty sex with a tattooed woman, but I would not marry a tattooed woman.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I spoke informally to a lawyer today about going the legal route.He thinks that by the time a judge agrees to hear the case my ex will have given up.I have one more session with my counsellor tomorrow and then I am out of here.I never realised she was so crazy,I was stupid to get involved with her but I was at a low point in my life when I met her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Banned-It.45 said:


> I would have nasty sex with a tattooed woman, but I would not marry a tattooed woman.


I would throw up on a tattooed woman but never have sex with her.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would throw up on a tattooed woman but never have sex with her.


That would be rude.


----------



## Tron

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> 89 text messages since yesterday.












She hasn't gotten the hint. Poor thing!


----------



## richie33

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would throw up on a tattooed woman but never have sex with her.


Maybe your ex dodged a bullet that you broke up with her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



richie33 said:


> Maybe your ex dodged a bullet that you broke up with her.


Maybe so but I made my feelings clear from day one that I could not accept tattoos on her.At this stage my phobia about tattoos has probably saved me from years of misery and a fortune in alimony.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Maybe so but I made my feelings clear from day one that I could not accept tattoos on her.At this stage my phobia about tattoos has probably saved me from years of misery and a fortune in alimony.




As long as you were clear from the beginning, then you don't need to justify yourself. You both had ground rules in place, and your just lucky that yours saved you from many years of heartache. 

How are you feeling about it all? Have you looked into getting a new number? I don't think she's going to leave you alone now that she realises that your serious.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> As long as you were clear from the beginning, then you don't need to justify yourself. You both had ground rules in place, and your just lucky that yours saved you from many years of heartache.
> 
> How are you feeling about it all? Have you looked into getting a new number? I don't think she's going to leave you alone now that she realises that your serious.


Yes I got a new phone yesterday and only my family and a couple of colleagues have the number.I have an answering service taking all other calls and messages.I have a session with my counsellor today then I am out of here for a few days.I am going to a hotel near where Ally and Sam lives and I am meeting them for dinner tonight.Sam has completely backtracked on my exf and told me her amateur attempt at counselling was a mistake.I think Ally has been on her case about her ripping into me but we will see how it goes.The two of them don't seem to be getting on so hot from what I have observed and Ally let it slip that Sam may be thinking she is a bringing more to the relationship than Ally is.Sam is far better educated than Ally and earns a lot more but they split all the finances equally except the apt that Sam owns outright.She does not know that Ally is fairly wealthy because she has one percent of my company but swore me to secrecy about it years ago.It is supposed to be an emergency fund in case Sam bails,then Ally will have enough money to buy her own place.This is why I can always trust Ally because she trusts me to look after her money.This was not a gift,when I set up on my own Ally was an unpaid secretary for a long while and I always intended her to have a share of the business.None of us thought it was going to bring in so much money though.
My exf is still trying to contact me but I have her blocked everywhere.She contacted my brother to try an get him on board but that will lead nowhere,he knows better than go behind my back.My counsellor has agreed to meet at my house today so I don't have to go into town,her office is very near my exf's health studio so I do not want any of her employees seeing me and telling her I'm in town.
My answering service tells me I'm getting about twelve texts every hour from a few different numbers but all of them looking for a private talk.That is my biggest fear,meeting her,because my brain seems to switch off when she is around.A previous poster said when she is near me I think with the wrong head and he was right.
If I can avoid her today I will not be around for a while and she will not know where I am(I don't know myself yet)


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

well the text messages dried up as soon as my exf realised I wasn't around,she must have used a dozen of her friends and employees phones.I have decided to stay away from my house for another few days,I'm staying in a hotel in the next city.Her very last voicemail mentioned that the boy was missing me terribly and I owed it to him to give us another chance.I know this is emotional blackmail but it doesn't make it feel any easier.
My counsellor tells me I should just take a long vacation on my own somewhere there are lots of people.I think she feels I am depressed but I'm not really.Its like I have been in a fog but it is starting to lift very slowly.When I can face my exf without wanting to punch her or f*** her I will know I am ok.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Don't meet with her


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> Don't meet with her


No intention of meeting with her.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She's doing it to get an emotional response from you. The boy wouldn't be missing you if she didn't f*ck it up. So it's her issue, not yours. It's harsh, but the minute she meets with you, she will try her hardest to get back with you. Guaranteed.


----------



## Looking2Change

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You're out of control on this one. It is HER body NOT YOURS. If you're this controlling with this then she's better off without you. If she wants and desires a tattoo then that's on her. She doesn't need your approval to get one. We don't live under Sharia Law and you can't control her. If you don't marry her because she got a tattoo then you never loved her in the first place.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



When2Leave said:


> You're out of control on this one. It is HER body NOT YOURS. If you're this controlling with this then she's better off without you. If she wants and desires a tattoo then that's on her. She doesn't need your approval to get one. We don't live under Sharia Law and you can't control her. If you don't marry her because she got a tattoo then you never loved her in the first place.


What an asinine comment. The fact that it's her body was never up for debate. The real issue here is she agreed to not get any tattoo and then she changed her mind and disrespected him in front of her friends. The issue here is about integrity and respecting your partner. It has nothing to do with whether he loves her or not. She has the right to get any tattoo she wants, and he has the right to enforce his boundary by walking away. 

Going by your logic, husbands and wives can give their bodies to anyone they want, because it's their bodies, and their partners have no say in it. Wait, what? You disagree? Maybe it is really about holding ourselves to the promises and vows we made, huh? Maybe it's about respecting our partners, huh?

It amazes me how many people use your myopic logic when the issue of tats come up. Setting up a strawman argument, knock it down, and proclaim your enlightenment.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



When2Leave said:


> You're out of control on this one. It is HER body NOT YOURS. If you're this controlling with this then she's better off without you. If she wants and desires a tattoo then that's on her. She doesn't need your approval to get one. We don't live under Sharia Law and you can't control her. If you don't marry her because she got a tattoo then you never loved her in the first place.


Oh good lord, this is as bad as dredging up Hitler. Good job.

It's about setting up boundaries and what you accept. I get people whine about Tattoos being trivial, but THEY TALKED IT OVER and she agreed. So, she has every right to get one and he has every right to end the relationship over her decision.

It has nothing to do with Sharia Law or any other gender biased idea you can develop.


----------



## Kivlor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



When2Leave said:


> You're out of control on this one. It is HER body NOT YOURS. If you're this controlling with this then she's better off without you. If she wants and desires a tattoo then that's on her. She doesn't need your approval to get one. We don't live under Sharia Law and you can't control her. If you don't marry her because she got a tattoo then you never loved her in the first place.


This is a great post for a thought experiment. But I doubt you'd be up for the intellectual rigor. Let's take the "It's her body, not yours" to its logical conclusion, and see if this holds up.

Just where does this distinction end for you? What is okay, and what isn't? Is it okay for me to cheat on my wife, because it's my body not hers? (And sex is quite temporary, not permanent like a tat)


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She had her deal-breaker which he willingly agreed to.
He had his deal-breaker which she willingly agreed to.
Neither were coerced or pressured to agree to each others' deal-breakers.
Then, she wanted to go back on her word to get a tattoo, and
by doing so, she demonstrated that her promise was worthless.

But he's trying to control her! Sharia Law! We must smash the patriarchy! lmao


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I had to go home last night to do some upgrading on one of my software pieces.I worked through the night and then couldn't sleep.I decided to bring my neighbours dog for a walk in the woods nearby,there is a lake as well and he loves to swim.When I got back to my car my exf's mother was leaning on the front of my car and she said we needed to talk.
I asked her how she knew I was there and she said she walks in the woods most mornings..To be fair she does a lot of walking.
She asked me did I not think I had been a bit over the top in the last couple of weeks and started giving me ****e about how my ex had learned her lesson and if I don't wise up some other man will "snap her up".This is the woman who originally told me not to give her daughter an inch,that I do so much for her with nothing in return.I said you must be really desperate to get her married off but it wasnt going to be to me.
She never even acknowledged what I said but then asked me have I considered investing in her daughters studio.I was f****** gobsmacked and asked her why would I do that.She said my ex wants to upgrade the exercise area into a state of the art gym with something called vacuumn thread mills and anti gravity thread mills with high definition screens all round using ifit technology.
I asked her why she couldn't get a business loan and help her daughter if that was what she wanted.Her answer was it was the least I could for my ex and her son to make sure they were financially secure.I was still standing there with the dog and he was wet so I wanted to leave so my last comment was is it a loan or a gift she wants and did she forget I was not the boy's father.
I told her get off my f****** car and got in and drove away.
Curiosity got the better of me though and I checked out these thread mills,they are hugely expensive and breakdown fairly often,she would need maybe thirty for what she wants so along with the screens she was probably looking for around half a million of a loan.
NOT A CHANCE!


----------



## Lostinthought61

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

i guess you know what your role would have been in the family...a personal ATM machine! 

well i guess we know who wears the pants in that family.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Xenote said:


> i guess you know what your role would have been in the family...a personal ATM machine!
> 
> well i guess we know who wears the pants in that family.


I did a quick calculation on the value of her business and I think for half a mill I would be entitled to about fifty five percent of the business.
That means her poisonous employees would work for me and I could sack them all.
Karma.
Just a thought...


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



When2Leave said:


> You're out of control on this one. It is HER body NOT YOURS. If you're this controlling with this then she's better off without you. If she wants and desires a tattoo then that's on her. She doesn't need your approval to get one. We don't live under Sharia Law and you can't control her. If you don't marry her because she got a tattoo then you never loved her in the first place.


She can get full sleeves, a tramp stamp and both legs tattooed if she wants.
I won't have to look at them.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Women can opine that they want to date/marry men who are tall, dark, and handsome, and no one will bat an eye. However, if someone like the OP says he doesn't want to marry a woman with tattoos, all of a sudden he's being controlling and close-minded. His preference is right for him, just as a woman's preference on her choice of physical attributes is right for her.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Women can opine that they want to date/marry men who are tall, dark, and handsome, and no one will bat an eye. However, if someone like the OP says he doesn't want to marry a woman with tattoos, all of a sudden he's being controlling and close-minded. His preference is right for him, just as a woman's preference on her choice of physical attributes is right for her.




Actually, tall dark and handsome are genetic traits that biologically favor better offspring. So women are genetically disposed to prefer those traits. Tattoos are just a choice. IMO. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I am tall dark and handsome.
My counsellor tells me I am narcissistic.
I don't know what she means.
I think she's hitting on me.




I'm joking,she would kill me if she seen this.


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> 60%!!.Thats almost half!.
> 
> 
> I'm joking.
> 
> That is really depressing though,why are so many people cheating on their (supposedly) loved ones.
> As I said earlier my parents were married over forty years and my brother thirty and counting.
> I think that's why I was so blinkered throughout my engagement,I just wanted what they had.
> My parents were happy their entire life and my brother is still as much in love with his wife as he
> was the day they married.She must be some kind of Saint to put up with that prick all this time.
> Well it's three days and no contact,I got the locks changed on my house just to be on the safe side
> because when she realises that I won't be around at the weekend she will go ape.



60% Cheat? Rididculous. The actual number is about 30%.Yes, thats bad enough.

Not that long ago you would have gotten far different advice on this forum.

What your fiance was doing over the years was sh!t testing you. Google it. You failed over and over and now you have failed the ultimate sh!t test.(fitness test)

From what I've read up through page 26, no one has given you the 2x4 to the side of your head you need.

Download the book MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER from amazon.com

You need to do this immediately as somewhere along the line, your man card was pulled.

You have me wondering if you have sabotaged this wedding on purpose or your fiance finally decided even though she wanted to marry you you wouldn't be a good example to her son.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Chaparral said:


> 60% Cheat? Rididculous. The actual number is about 30%.Yes, thats bad enough.
> 
> Not that long ago you would have gotten far different advice.
> 
> What your fiance was doing over the years was **** testing you. Google it. You failed over and over and now you have failed the ultimate **** test.(fitness test)
> 
> From what I've read up through page 26, no one has given you the 2x4 to the side of your head you need.
> 
> Download the book MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER from amazon.com
> 
> You need to do this immediately as somewhere along the line, your man card was pulled.
> 
> You have me wondering if you have sabotaged this wedding on purpose or your fiance finally decided even though she wanted to marry you you wouldn't be a good example to her son.


I freely admitted that my previous life was not exactly husband material.From the day I met my ex I never touched another woman and I have no reason to lie on this.I thought we were fine for a long time until this episode came up and then I realised I was been taken for a ride.Im not sure what you mean by the two by four comment.


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I have changed the locks since last week even though she had given me back my keys.My house is fitted with the most up to date smart technology money can buy with my phone I can drop shutters on every door and window,turn off electricity,gas and water and it is in a private estate so if she tried to get in she would be arrested for trespassing.I don't think it will come to that though.
> I have texted,emailed and left voice mails to tell her we are done.It hasn't stopped her "friends" from sniffing around though.I am seriously thinking of selling my house though and moving somewhere else.I can work from anywhere in the world once I have a phone and Internet connection.Problem is I don't know many people outside of where I live so I would be even lonelier than I am now.
> I can't remember who first told me to get IC but it was the best advice I have ever had.My counsellor cuts right to the chase,no bull****,and I don't think she is too impressed with me or my lifestyle.But she is less impressed with my former lifestyle so maybe she sees some hope for me.I,would hate to be her husband trying to explain where he was until three in the morning though lol.She was adamant that if I continued to see my exf then our sessions were over.She is trying to push me on my relationship with my brother but I think that is a lost cause.She has backed off(for now anyway)with questions about Ally and I'm glad because I do not want to go there.I am still going to take a trip to Scotland and may stay in Europe for a while but I don't want to stop my counselling sessions yet as I see thing far clearly now and realise I was been taken for a ride by my exf.


You have mostly girl friends. Taking mostly women's advice on this thread and your counselor is a girl. Great Ceasar's ghost. Are you for real?

What happened to the men on this website?


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Your relationship with this young woman and her son needed tweaked. You've been talked into going nuclear.

Go here and read Mich's posts. Banned for having mens views.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/search.php?searchid=62000529


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> At this stage I couldn't give a f*** if she screws the Dallas Cowboys as long as I don't have to listen to her telling me it's my fault.


It is your fault. You've let a lot of folks lead you down a rabbit hole. Political correctness run amok.


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> 89 text messages since yesterday.


Psycho or backbone?


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I freely admitted that my previous life was not exactly husband material.From the day I met my ex I never touched another woman and I have no reason to lie on this.I thought we were fine for a long time until this episode came up and then I realised I was been taken for a ride.Im not sure what you mean by the two by four comment.


I repeat, google sh!t test. All those times you acquiesed and backed down was a failure in the eyes of a woman. You finally stood up for yourself...great. but then you let the bulls horns go and ran.

The MMSLP book isn't about sex, its about how a man stays attractive to a woman. By constantly letting her having her way and belittling you, which you deserved, you became overly domestisized and hen pecked. Finally you reacted properly and she fell into line. Great. Then you started following bad advise that has destroyed what could have been a great little family with two people you love.

Woman counselor for a man? SPIT


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Chaparral said:


> I repeat, google sh!t test. All those times you acquiesed and backed down was a failure in the eyes of a woman. You finally stood up for yourself...great. but then you let the bulls horns go and ran.
> 
> The MMSLP book isn't about sex, its about how a man stays attractive to a woman. By constantly letting her having her way and belittling you, which you deserved, you became overly domestisized and hen pecked. Finally you reacted properly and she fell into line. Great. Then you started following bad advise that has destroyed what could have been a great little family with two people you love.
> 
> Woman counselor for a man? SPIT


You are over simplifying this.There was a lot more going on than maybe even I realised.It turns out that she wanted me to invest in her business all along,she seen me as a cash machine.I may be a F***** idiot in my love life but that does not extend to my business life. You seem to have a problem with women in professional fields.Do you think because my counsellor is a woman that she would give me bad advice.This woman came recommended by a lawyer who I have the highest respect for,he told me she has saved many relationships from divorce.Even she could tell me that my relationship was never going to work.
It's a moot point anyway because I believe when I met her I was actually depressed,my best friends in the world had left and both my parents died within a few days of them leaving.
I jumped from constant one night stands or relationships lasting a few weeks to a five year exclusive relationship.I was looking for something that I did not find.


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

That woman did not play and wait five years to hook you into investing in her business. She wasted five years on you when she could have found a more stable man to be a husband and dad for her son. She's the one that's been played.


----------



## Chaparral

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Btw, you're lady counselor has determined you are a narcissist. Have you done any reading on that. The way you've described yourself you're anything but.

If she's correct you can't truly love someone and you should never marry.

Although, the way you're treating the woman and her son now reeks of selfishness.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Chaparral said:


> That woman did not play and wait five years to hook you into investing in her business. She wasted five years on you when she could have found a more stable man to be a husband and dad for her son. She's the one that's been played.


That woman has said that she wanted Andy to take care of her and her son. In other words, she wanted the financial security that he can provide. However, she has shown time and time again that she is not a safe partner for him. Her own mother even told him to not let her walk all over him. If she can't honor her word about a simple agreement on not getting tattoos, how can the OP expect her to honor her marriage vows? The vast majority of the posters seem to agree that the OP should run from her, as she's not marriage material.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> .Her very last voicemail mentioned that the boy was missing me terribly and I owed it to him to give us another chance.I know this is emotional blackmail but it doesn't make it feel any easier.
> My counsellor tells me I should just take a long vacation on my own somewhere there are lots of people.I think she feels I am depressed but I'm not really.Its like I have been in a fog but it is starting to lift very slowly.When I can face my exf without wanting to punch her or f*** her I will know I am ok.


Classic manipulation, that it's being used says don't give in to it. You have to show you own your respect, for it to be valuable.

You counsellor sounds like a bit of a hack, who is sticking labels on things. Many counsellors -avoid- sticking labels on things because it causes them to become encapsulated in the mind making it harder to deal with the root causes. Poor behaviouralists tend to do this because it gives them something to "fix" and a path to "cure". Also it could be a response that a consellor will use to enquire into your feelings in order to make you dig deeper into expressing your mental connections when you might be asking things like why you feel detached or easily distracted and more prone to uncharacteristic emotional moods.

The anger is a normal process that goes along with the frustration. For a bloke this include frustration about loss of progress, loss of dream, unexpected barriers and troubles, as well as emotional assault (partner and child linkages). Often men are expected to overcome and break through such obstacles and hurt (fight response). You can get through it easily enough, and it can help to accept the anger as a rational response, and then mentally "do business" with it to find precisely just what bits of your life are triggering the worst anger bits. It is betrayal when you've grown up _expecting_ (for no real reason) that you partner will be on the same page as you, that you're feeling put out "because you were nice" she was supposed to be "nicer" and "more honest", and mad at yourself for letting yourself be taken for a ride...... it's your mind, only you can find what parts are hitting _your_ red buttons.

Generally I would advise against female counsellors (especially those under 50) advising men. The thought patterns and social roles are just too different to her thinking and training. They can help on a first level acute basis but for actually working on building a man as a man..... they just don't have a clue.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Chaparral said:


> Btw, you're lady counselor has determined you are a narcissist. Have you done any reading on that. The way you've described yourself you're anything but.
> 
> If she's correct you can't truly love someone and you should never marry.
> 
> Although, the way you're treating the woman and her son now reeks of selfishness.


"selfishness" is ok, but being nasty when a child is involved is not.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I haven't spoken to her in over a week.It was her mother who rung me about her moving in but I'd say it was at my exf's suggestion.I have tried every way I know to get it clear to her it is over but she keeps texting me on other peoples phones.At this stage I have considered using an answering service for my current number and buying a new phone just for work colleagues.


She didn't respect the rules for your relationship, what makes you think she will respect your decision to end it, or vague social rules? Clearly she is a person who expects to eventually get what she wants...perhaps, if you are a business person that is even an aspect of her personality that attracted to you. But now you're finding she's not a team player, and that you are pretty thin skinned (try not to take that badly) in how much of your rule you are prepared to have broken.
Many people have a tattoo, for many people its not a big deal (let alone a deal breaker). I appreciate that for you it is, and that was explicitly stated. Also many of the "bending over" that you've had to do in the past is just taken to be "your way" and _isn't_ seen by the other partner as compromise or being helpful. The other person isn't in your head, doesn't live your life, or have a script for your dreams and feelings, so they are focused on their lives, wants, and script. My most recent ex was 100% anti tattoo's too.

And while we can agree she was looking to break the rule, it was your rule, and while it was an agreed relationship (shared rule) you also have to take care that it's not the rule-breaking that is emotionally upsetting you...thataway lies control-freak territory (and what full on control freak doesn't like to tame the wild child, have the pygmalion, and reap the benefits of a socialite partner)...I bring that up because it's surprising how many nice "accepting" guys actually fall into that category.

I bring these up, not to poke at you (or her) but to highlight the "rule breaking" and "rule importance" aspect of the relationship since you seem surprised at the pursuit and the manner in which it's being done - which if you give it thought, was entirely predictable.

Personally I would point out to you, and her, that when it comes to it, you'd find each other entertaining as social acquaintances but finger-nails on chalkboard in a marriage style relationship, where you'd constantly be hitting each others limits and stretching the limits of patience.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CynthiaDe said:


> She owns and operates a business where people do not respect each other. Her employees saying they want a piece of you is highly disrespectful in any situation, but for an employee to talk to her boss that way shows that there is a complete lack of boundaries and respect in her place of business.


Sometimes that comes about because the "employees" (third parties) have been told a "highly edited" version of events.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> I agree that he should also speak to his own counsellor, but him inviting her to join his sessions are going to be a waste of time. Sorry, I wasn't clearer in my original post.
> 
> She needs her own independent person working for her, to be on her side. She needs to sort her own issues before any decision can be made on the relationship, and starting combined pre-marital counselling. And as her fiancee he should suggest this because he obviously still loves and cares for her. It doesn't matter if Andy decides to stay or go at the end of the day. She needs her own sessions to figure out better who she is, and sort some of her own issues.


If it's a martial problem, then generally it needs to be dealt with as a couple (or the attempt made). Otherwise there's only one interpretation of events that involve two people, and often one or more of those people likes to fit the truth about what was going on to their expectations.

eg For her she might say "we were having fun and having a few laughs and normally he's ok with me and the crew, and then he goes bat**** crazy, refuses to communicate, gets really twisted about a tattoo which was only joking with my friends. Now my son is really upset, and can't understand why he hates us"
...and it makes her look like a stable fun-loving angel just having a casual time, and him the temperamental immature family breaker.

Where he might say "I know she loves going wild with friends and leaving her son with me as I'm the responsible one, and her happiness is important to me. But I have a really good reason for hating tattoo's so I made sure that was clear between us early in the relationship. So when she goes out with some friends and tells me she's getting a tattoo I decide to break off the relationship because the tattoo thing really is a big deal and I'm getting the feeling I'm being walked on and used. Then she tells me it's some kind of joke or is that a lie to try and invalidate the earlier call, and she wants to use me some more?
... and it makes him look patient, stable, and very honest. And makes her look like a completely irresponsible *****.

Individually a counselor will try to help the person come to terms with their understanding of their own interpretation - without having access to the other side of the story.
Marriage counselling tricky enough getting each person to recognise a third interpretation but almost impossible when each party has an authoritative coach in their own corner prepping them for the next round. (and where the "advice" from the personal coach will be what is good for that individual, but is likely to be projected at the other party instead!)


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

The girl:

Has a young child whom is taken care of by the child's grandmother,
She likes to party with shady "friends".
She wants a tattoo commemorating the death of a friend's dad, which is crazy in itself, but also bass ackward from their agreement on no tatoos.
She wants HIM to invest large sums of money in HER gym, which he will likely never see again.
Her mother comes and talks to him with the goal not of helping with the relationship, but to ask for money for her daughter(totally disgusting, I think).

I think OP would not be pleased if he married this girl, if only because he doesn't respect her values, whatever they might be; and I think he'd be in for a ride.
I say move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Evinrude58 said:


> The girl:
> 
> Has a young child whom is taken care of by the child's grandmother,
> She likes to party with shady "friends".
> She wants a tattoo commemorating the death of a friend's dad, which is crazy in itself, but also bass ackward from their agreement on no tatoos.
> She wants HIM to invest large sums of money in HER gym, which he will likely never see again.
> Her mother comes and talks to him with the goal not of helping with the relationship, but to ask for money for her daughter(totally disgusting, I think).
> 
> I think OP would not be pleased if he married this girl, if only because he doesn't respect her values, whatever they might be; and I think he'd be in for a ride.
> I say move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now describe it from her side....


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy why don't you hang out with men? 

Keep a distance from the lesbians when they are fighting and trying to drag you into their sh!t. Gay drama will wear you down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Andy why don't you hang out with men?
> 
> 
> 
> Keep a distance from *any couple* when they are fighting and trying to drag you into their sh!t. *The* drama will wear you down.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




There... I fixed that for you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

That narcissistic comment was a joke.
I even said I was joking in the thread.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> There... I fixed that for you.


Thank you PC police officer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Thank you PC police officer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Your more then welcome. 

Not only is your comment in the realm of homophobia, it's also incorrect. "Those gays" as you so kindly called Andy's friends, are just as volatile as any male-female relationship trying to bring a third person into their drama.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Your more then welcome.
> 
> Not only is your comment in the realm of homophobia, it's also incorrect. "Those gays" as you so kindly called Andy's friends, are just as volatile as any male-female relationship trying to bring a third person into their drama.


Part of me wants to agree with you. 

However, the saying "There is no drama like gay drama" was first told to me...wait for it...by my lesbian friend, who swore it was the truth.

So I will take her word for it...


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

That is true.And when two lesbians fight they fight dirty,nothing is off the table.I think it comes from frustration,maybe trying to hide their relationship in certain situations.


----------



## EllisRedding

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> Part of me wants to agree with you.
> 
> However, the saying "There is no drama like gay drama" was first told to me...wait for it...by my lesbian friend, who swore it was the truth.
> 
> So I will take her word for it...


----------



## VladDracul

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Your more then welcome.


And you jumped on fixing it lickety split. Congratulations.


----------



## sosotte

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> well the text messages dried up as soon as my exf realised I wasn't around,she must have used a dozen of her friends and employees phones.I have decided to stay away from my house for another few days,I'm staying in a hotel in the next city.Her very last voicemail mentioned that the boy was missing me terribly and I owed it to him to give us another chance.I know this is emotional blackmail but it doesn't make it feel any easier.
> My counsellor tells me I should just take a long vacation on my own somewhere there are lots of people.I think she feels I am depressed but I'm not really.Its like I have been in a fog but it is starting to lift very slowly.When I can face my exf without wanting to punch her or f*** her I will know I am ok.


I would invite you to take a break in Spain, but you would probably vomit on me xD


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



sosotte said:


> I would invite you to take a break in Spain, but you would probably vomit on me xD


You could always have your tattoos removed.lol.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> Classic manipulation, that it's being used says don't give in to it. You have to show you own your respect, for it to be valuable.
> 
> You counsellor sounds like a bit of a hack, who is sticking labels on things. Many counsellors -avoid- sticking labels on things because it causes them to become encapsulated in the mind making it harder to deal with the root causes. Poor behaviouralists tend to do this because it gives them something to "fix" and a path to "cure". Also it could be a response that a consellor will use to enquire into your feelings in order to make you dig deeper into expressing your mental connections when you might be asking things like why you feel detached or easily distracted and more prone to uncharacteristic emotional moods.
> 
> The anger is a normal process that goes along with the frustration. For a bloke this include frustration about loss of progress, loss of dream, unexpected barriers and troubles, as well as emotional assault (partner and child linkages). Often men are expected to overcome and break through such obstacles and hurt (fight response). You can get through it easily enough, and it can help to accept the anger as a rational response, and then mentally "do business" with it to find precisely just what bits of your life are triggering the worst anger bits. It is betrayal when you've grown up _expecting_ (for no real reason) that you partner will be on the same page as you,  that you're feeling put out "because you were nice" she was supposed to be "nicer" and "more honest", and mad at yourself for letting yourself be taken for a ride...... it's your mind, only you can find what parts are hitting _your_ red buttons.
> 
> Generally I would advise against female counsellors (especially those under 50) advising men. The thought patterns and social roles are just too different to her thinking and training. They can help on a first level acute basis but for actually working on building a man as a man..... they just don't have a clue.


The main feelingI have is one of been cheated.
Cheated out of having a wife and child.
Cheated out of five years of my life.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well this week it was my exf's sister who approached me.This is the sister who was feeding me information from the start.She said my ex has accepted that we are finished but thinks in the future we may get back together.
I was at a wedding when she came over to me,a woman who does interpreting for me was getting married to her long term boyfriend and she invited me to the wedding.Ally and Sam were there too as they were friends of the bride before I knew her.
The sister said my ex really needs money to upgrade the equipment in her gym and she is considering mortgaging the building she owns to get it.I said it was none of my business but I would think it very foolhardy to risk losing everything.
She then asked me would I consider investing in the business if it was on a proper legal terms.
I said I wasn't interested but then Ally butted in and asked the sister how much money they needed to borrow.She said that they would need about three hundred grand at least but preferably more.Ally asked her what percentage she was offering for the investment but she didn't know.(By the way Sam was not at the table at this stage)Ally said she would ring my ex the following day and have a chat.
I was furious with Ally but she said she needs something to invest her money in.I told her buy some rental property but she said she needed something that interested her.I said what about Sam and she said tell her nothing.This is turning into a f***** nightmare.Ally said if my ex agrees she may buy the business completely and move back here.I again said what about Sam and she just shrugged.I hadn't realised things had got so bad between them.Ally said Sam is behaving like a real butch ****(her words) and she was being controlling as hell and trying to bully her.
This situation is going from bad to worse because Ally will not listen to anyone when she gets an idea into her head.I made her promise to use my accountant to check the finances of my exf's business before investing and she said she would.If Ally and my ex end up working together Ally won't be able to resist playing Cupid,and this crap will never end.
I will also have to either tell Sam it was my money that she used or reveal that Ally has wealth that Sam knows nothing about.Either way I look like an ******* for helping to split them up,lying or keeping secrets.I should add that Ally teaches self defence classes for women so she is not going in blind.


----------



## 225985

OP, you are not cheated out of anything. You dumped her, remember? It did not work out. It sucks but it happens. Whatever the reason, just move on. That is best for you, her and the little boy. No one needs all this drama. The drama will all continue if you allow it. 

What your friend Ally does with her money is her business. You should not lie to Sam or get involved.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> OP, you are not cheated out of anything. You dumped her, remember? It did not work out. It sucks but it happens. Whatever the reason, just move on. That is best for you, her and the little boy. No one needs all this drama. The drama will all continue if you allow it.
> 
> What your friend Ally does with her money is her business. You should not lie to Sam or get involved.


How do I explain the money though.Sam will go crazy when she finds out Ally has this type of money and that I looked after it for her..We are talking seven figures here.Sam bought and paid for her apt because she thought Ally hadn't got any savings.Thank god Ally's name is not on the deeds or it would get really dirty.
They are not married so neither of them has any claim on the others money.
They have been turned down numerous times for adoption so maybe that is causing strife in their relationship.
This is a disaster and I will be left picking up the pieces.Im seriously thinking of just giving my ex the money just to keep Ally from coming here.


----------



## Tron

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*










Stay out of it, altogether! 

This can only end badly.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Tron said:


> Stay out of it, altogether!
> 
> This can only end badly.


Yeah,and mainly for me.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Tron said:


> Stay out of it, altogether!
> 
> This can only end badly.


Yes it will end badly.For me!
I can't see any way out of this without somebody getting hurt.And I will be the scapegoat.
Someone said in an earlier post not to get involved in gay drama and they were right,but I am not a willing participant in this but I can't see any way of preventing it either.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> How do I explain the money though.Sam will go crazy when she finds out Ally has this type of money and that I looked after it for her..We are talking seven figures here.Sam bought and paid for her apt because she thought Ally hadn't got any savings.Thank god Ally's name is not on the deeds or it would get really dirty.
> They are not married so neither of them has any claim on the others money.
> They have been turned down numerous times for adoption so maybe that is causing strife in their relationship.
> This is a disaster and I will be left picking up the pieces.Im seriously thinking of just giving my ex the money just to keep Ally from coming here.


Don't give one penny to your ex, regardless of what Ally chooses to do with hers. Stay out of it altogether. If Ally makes a bad investment, it's on her, not you.

If Sam finds out about Ally's money and confronts you, just tell her that Ally had made you promise to keep it a secret so your first obligation was to honor your promise to her. Then tell Sam to take it up with Ally.

Easy peasy.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Tron said:


> Stay out of it, altogether!
> 
> This can only end badly.


Yes and it's me it will end badly for.No matter what happens now I am in trouble with someone.If Ally invests in the studio Sam will want to know where the money came from.If Ally doesn't ring my ex as she said she would my ex will think I'm trying to screw up her business.
If I invest in the studio then my ex will think I'm trying to get back with her and Ally will think I screwed her over.This is a nightmare.Just when things seemed to be settling down.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Yes and it's me it will end badly for.No matter what happens now I am in trouble with someone.If Ally invests in the studio Sam will want to know where the money came from.If Ally doesn't ring my ex as she said she would my ex will think I'm trying to screw up her business.
> If I invest in the studio then my ex will think I'm trying to get back with her and Ally will think I screwed her over.This is a nightmare.Just when things seemed to be settling down.


You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be. 

Repeat after me: YOU OWE YOUR EXF NOTHING. NADA! ZILCH!

You are creating way too much drama when there shouldn't be any. Just let Ally do what she wants, and stay out of it. If Sam asks about Ally's money, tell her to talk to Ally. If after she talks to Ally and comes back at you, explain to her your moral obligation to honor your promise to Ally.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Your EX: blah, blah, blah, blah
You: *silence*

Sam: blah, blah,blah
You: This is between you and Ally. I'm staying out of it.
Sam: blah, blah, blah
You: Again, take it up with Ally!


----------



## rzmpf

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> How do I explain the money though.Sam will go crazy when she finds out Ally has this type of money and that I looked after it for her..We are talking seven figures here.Sam bought and paid for her apt because she thought Ally hadn't got any savings.Thank god Ally's name is not on the deeds or it would get really dirty.
> They are not married so neither of them has any claim on the others money.
> They have been turned down numerous times for adoption so maybe that is causing strife in their relationship.
> This is a disaster and I will be left picking up the pieces.Im seriously thinking of just giving my ex the money just to keep Ally from coming here.


That's between the two and none of your business. You were looking after her money and have no obligation and no right to run around and tell other people what kind of money she has. Just stay out of it. 
So what if S bought the apt, it's hers now and she can sell if off or rent it out.

And don't give your ex money. That "investment" was her marriage gift anyway, as soon as you were married she would have come forward with that. Should have taken less money out of the business to drink and party with her staff and she would not need that much right now. Investment in new equiment/training is pretty normal in the fitness business so it's nothing that she couldn't see coming.
BUT NOTHING OF THAT IS YOUR BUSINESS ANY MORE. Just tell Ally that if she wants to invest in your XGF's business you want nothing to with this BS and your XGF and that managing the investment will be on her not on you just as would be telling her GF about it is her business.

As was already said before, just say "No".


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Ok I was kind of panicking yesterday but I have calmed down now.The latest news is my ex will be happy to have Ally invest in her business.She reckons it's worth 2.5 million and wants Ally to invest half a mill for a twenty per cent stake.I think that's is over valued but I'm staying out of it.Ally has my accountant going through the books and has a real estate company valuing the premises.I did give her one piece of advice though,I told her she needs fifty one percent to have any control,otherwise my ex will chew her up.
She asked me if she could stay with me for a while if she moves back and I told her of course but I had two conditions.No bringing other girls back to the house and no playing Cupid with me and my ex.She was surprised at my first condition and said she and Sam had not broken up.I said they are my conditions so take it or leave it.Im not having Ally screwing around in my house and I made it clear that me and my ex were finished for good.She asked me why don't I come in with her and buy the business completely but I said no.I don't think my ex will completely sell up anyway and if she does I told Ally to buy it.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*

Dude. You just love this drama. But know that it is of your own making. 

Your ex-f did not spend five years with you because she wanted your money. She is a successful businesswoman despite how others portrayed her. She was not looking for a father for her son. She loved you. That is pretty much it. She expected to spend her life with you. 

You seem to focus on yourself. You are "cheated", "screwed" etc. You are not a victim here.

Nightmare? Your ex is living her nightmare.


----------



## oskar

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I've been reading this thread and now that I have an account and can post I will make one comment.

You should not be speaking to her, at all.

If you do then you're just a glutton for punishment and or you like the attention.

Either way it's not good for you.


----------



## LucasJackson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It's just a tattoo. There are worse things in life. My advice is your life is pretty good, stop picking at it.


----------



## oskar

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If you think this is just about a tattoo you missed the boat.

Even if it was just about the tattoo and not the deeper stuff, let's say they have kids someday who see mom with a tattoo. 

Then they'll want one. Dad's against it from the start. It's a problem waiting to happen.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Dude. You just love this drama. But know that it is of your own making.
> 
> Your ex-f did not spend five years with you because she wanted your money. She is a successful businesswoman despite how others portrayed her. She was not looking for a father for her son. She loved you. That is pretty much it. She expected to spend her life with you.
> 
> You seem to focus on yourself. You are "cheated", "screwed" etc. You are not a victim here.
> 
> Nightmare? Your ex is living her nightmare.


Yeah...I am not seeing this.

He had a boundary and she crossed it. I don't think he has reached out to her once since they broke up. 

I think exf wasn't expecting OP to enforce said boundary and is freaking out.


----------



## oskar

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> Yeah...I am not seeing this.
> 
> He had a boundary and she crossed it. I don't think he has reached out to her once since they broke up.
> 
> I think exf wasn't expecting OP to enforce said boundary and is freaking out.


Doesn't matter if he's not the one initiating contact.

He's receiving it. 

Just as bad.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



oskar said:


> I've been reading this thread and now that I have an account and can post I will make one comment.
> 
> You should not be speaking to her, at all.
> 
> If you do then you're just a glutton for punishment and or you like the attention.
> 
> Either way it's not good for you.


I have not spoken to her in over three weeks.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I don't know if anyone is still reading about my problems but it helps me to vent anyway.
I went to a gig on Saturday,a few lecturers from one of the colleges have a cover band and they were playing in a bar close to where I live.I took a cab over so that I could have a few beers but I really just wanted to hear the music.I was on my second drink when the barman said to me watch my back.I turned around and my exf's tattooed friend was staring across at me from the other side of the bar.She was in a skimpy vest top so most of her tattoos were visible.She was with a biker type,also covered in tattoos and she was pointing me out to him.The barman said if he comes up he will get the bouncers to throw him out.I said not to worry about it because this ******* wasn't going to do anything.He came up to the bar and ordered a couple of drinks,stared hard at me and then sat down again.I got up and I really wanted to punch the **** out of this guy,all the frustration of the last few weeks was coming out.I stood in front of him and asked him what his problem was and did he want to come outside to sort it out.She got really mouthy and started screaming obscenities at me but the guy did nothing.The bouncers came over and told me to either go back to the bar or get out.I left after telling the (wannabe)biker that I would be waiting for him outside.I stood talking to one of the bouncers for about twenty minutes just to see would he come out but he didn't.This was the first night that I went out locally since the breakup and that tattooed ***** ruined it for me.The bouncer told me who the guy was,just a weekend warrior still living with his mom.
The accountant is supposed to have a meeting with Ally tomorrow and she wants me to come.I told her aI want nothing to do with this but she said she just wants my advice.
The building is actually worth more than I thought so maybe my ex wasn't exaggerating what she said the business was worth.I still don't want to get involved though.
I think a split is on the cards for Ally and Sam though,Sam called me on Sunday and wanted to know about where Ally got the money and was it really me who was investing in the business.I told her straight out that It was Ally's money and to talk to her.She said she guessed years ago that I gave Ally money but never brought it up.I told her that Ally helped me at the start of my business and I couldn't afford to pay her(or me) and the only way to compensate her was to give her a cut.It was only one per cent but she done all right out of it.Sam asked me how much Ally had but I did not tell her,she said are we talking in the hundred thousand range.Ally still has not told her how much money she really has.Sam was really pissed off,she said they could have used the money to buy a better apt or even a house but now she and Ally were in separate bedrooms.Sam has changed a lot and I got the impression she thought I should have included her in the company too.
We will know tomorrow whether the deal is on or not but if Ally invests then she is coming back here to live and Sam is adamant she is not leaving her job or home so there may be a breakup.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Stay out of Sam and Ally's business. 

Seriously brother...you love the drama.


----------



## Kivlor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Stay out of Sam and Ally's business.
> 
> Seriously brother...you love the drama.


:iagree:


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Stay out of Sam and Ally's business.
> 
> Seriously brother...you love the drama.


Ally is my best friend in the whole world and I would do anything for her.


----------



## just got it 55

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Stay out of Sam and Ally's business.
> 
> Seriously brother...you love the drama.


He is saying he wants to but @bandit.45 he should not be speaking to either of them on this subject matter.

His first loyalty should be with Ally IMO

55


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

oy vay.......


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy are you a city dweller? May I ask where you live?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Andy are you a city dweller? May I ask where you live?


No more like a fairly large town.If I tell you where I live someone will know who I am and the **** will really hit the air conditioning then.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> No more like a fairly large town.If I tell you where I live someone will know who I am and the **** will really hit the air conditioning then.


Hmm...

West Coast, fly-over, or East Coast?


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> No more like a fairly large town.If I tell you where I live someone will know who I am and the **** will really hit the air conditioning then.


You'll thrive.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

What does it matter where I live?


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I agree with the others.....you need to get out of the middle of this business deal.

Tell Ally You would help her in any sitch but not one with your exf.

She is on her own.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well the good news is Ally is not investing in my exf's business.
The bad news is my ex still thinks we are engaged.I was on Facebook this morning and she had updated her profile picture(she looked great) and commented she was looking forward to next year and the wedding and she was flashing her (my?) engagement ring.She commented that unforeseen circumstances had forced the postponement of her marriage to a "wonderful man" but she hoped to be a spring bride.
She can hope.
The other side of the coin is she is close to bankruptcy in her business.
The accountant I use had some of his guys go through her paper work and she is just keeping her head above water but has the premises mortgaged and is stuck with massive maintenance contracts on her machinery.She bought new equipment a couple of years ago and apparently signed up for a five year maintenance contract even though a lot of this equipment has only about a two year life cycle.I checked how much second hand gym equipment was selling for and some of it couldn't be given away.There is a mileage counter on this stuff and once it reaches a certain amount it's not worth repairing and also becomes obsolete quickly.The maintenance contract doesn't cover spare parts just labor.She has to pay thousands for nothing.
Ally has just left,she has been told not to invest right now but if my ex declares bankruptcy to try and get a deal with the bank.
This will be a terrible blow to my ex and despite all that has gone on I would hate to see her lose something she has spent her life building up.
Once I got rid of Ally I called the accountant and got more info.The building is worth close to a mill but has a six hundred grand mortgage on it and is three months in arrears.The equipment is ok but would be sold for scrap value if she goes bust.I know the manager of the bank involved and I called him.He couldn't go into much detail but he said the vultures would soon be circling and if another payment was missed the bank would have to take action.The stupid thing is the business on its own without dept is very profitable,my ex took her eye off the ball and now is in trouble.


----------



## sokillme

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The bad news is my ex still thinks we are engaged.I was on Facebook this morning and she had updated her profile picture(she looked great) and commented she was looking forward to next year and the wedding and she was flashing her (my?) engagement ring.She commented that unforeseen circumstances had forced the postponement of her marriage to a "wonderful man" but she hoped to be a spring bride.


Since you keep on checking up on her and she is your primary focus I suspect she is right.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Ally is my best friend in the whole world and I would do anything for her.




She is bi. Go sleep with her.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*

That whole bar scene was your fault and your drama. That tat women was probably telling the biker dude that you were the SOB that dumped her friend. Nothing was said and here you want to take it outside. 

Get some therapy for the anger issues. 

I feel sorry for your ex-f. Not your fault. Just a sad story for you, her and Sam. Ally seems to be the only one that will come out of this whole. She might even get a piece of you.

BTW after 500 posts of course we are still reading your thread.


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

We're all waiting for him to acknowledge he thrives on the self created drama.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> That whole bar scene was your fault and your drama. That tat women was probably telling the biker dude that you were the SOB that dumped her friend. Nothing was said and here you want to take it outside.
> 
> Get some therapy for the anger issues.
> 
> I feel sorry for your ex-f. Not your fault. Just a sad story for you, her and Sam. Ally seems to be the only one that will come out of this whole. She might even get a piece of you.
> 
> BTW after 500 posts of course we are still reading your thread.


Your wrong.The biker ******* was in my face trying to intimidate me.It was the tattooed friend who started all this crap at the start by trying to get my ex to get a tattoo.
You know **** all about Ally so don't come out with crap about her being bi.


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Your wrong.The biker ******* was in my face trying to intimidate me


That's not what you wrote earlier. Are you making this up as you go along? Sure sounds like it.



Andy1001 said:


> my exf's tattooed friend was staring across at me from the other side of the bar....He came up to the bar and ordered a couple of drinks,stared hard at me and then sat down again.I stood in front of him and asked him what his problem was and did he want to come outside to sort it out.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



estes said:


> That's not what you wrote earlier. Are you making this up as you go along? Sure sounds like it.


I wrote he stared hard at me,was I supposed to wait for him to hit me first and then discuss it with him.He was standing right beside me at the time and there was plenty of space at the bar.


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I wrote he stared hard at me,was I supposed to wait for him to hit me first and then discuss it with him.


First you said he stared at you when he came up to the bar and then he sat down, and then you went over and got in HIS face, and just now you said he got in YOUR face.

Do you realize that you said two completely opposite things Andy?

How can you expect people to take you seriously when you make this stuff up as you go along?

Because I sure don't.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You know **** all about Ally so don't come out with crap about her being bi.




You are right. But is there something between you and her that is more than friendship? Maybe not romantic or sexual but possibly something that could interfere with your other relationships, whether or not you know this. Just a thought. You are fixated on her a lot. And talk about her as much as your ex-f. 

I hope you find peace after all this. Peace for your ex too.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



estes said:


> First you said he stared at you when he came up to the bar and then he sat down, and then you went over and got in HIS face, and just now you said he got in YOUR face.
> 
> Do you realize that you said two completely opposite things Andy?
> 
> How can you expect people to take you seriously when you make this stuff up as you go along?
> 
> Because I sure don't.


Believe whatever you want,if you think I'm making this up why keep reading?


----------



## wilson

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Believe whatever you want,if you think I'm making this up why keep reading?


If you're not making it up, you're bringing 100% of the drama upon yourself. You're essentially saying "I keep getting involved with and surrounding myself with this group of people who create and love drama. How can I stay involved with this circle of people and avoid drama?" 

I do get the feeling you're not taking the advice here seriously. Whether that's because you're making it up or because of your personality, I don't know. Everyone is telling you to separate yourself from the people and situation, yet you keep plunging headfirst into the cesspool and getting dirty.

So if you really are a multi-millionaire who just needs a telephone and internet to keep raking it in, move somewhere else and don't leave a forwarding address. Ally will be fine with her 6-figure settlement in the bank. Block your ex and forget about this whole thing.


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Believe whatever you want,if you think I'm making this up why keep reading?


It's an entertaining story.

I'm waiting for the part when you say you took on the entire gang and beat them to a pulp because they looked at you the wrong way.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



estes said:


> It's an entertaining story.
> 
> I'm waiting for the part when you say you took on the entire gang and beat them to a pulp because they looked at you the wrong way.


Well for a guy with fifty four posts and counting in two days it doesn't look like you have much else to do.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well for a guy with fifty four posts and counting in two days it doesn't look like you have much else to do.


Pay no mind

Your accountant just confirmed what we all knew.

You were her savior paycheck.

I will leave this thread if you try to help her even if you 
can make money on the deal. 

Not your circus. Not your monkeys.


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well for a guy with fifty four posts and counting in two days it doesn't look like you have much else to do.


I'm keeping you out of street fights, that's productive.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Ally is my best friend in the whole world and I would do anything for her.


I love my dog. Doesn't mean I need to bury his bones for him.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> What does it matter where I live?


I'm trying to get a picture of you. You sound like a metrosexual hipster.


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> I'm trying to get a picture of you. You sound like a metrosexual hipster.


did you mean to write heterosexual mister?


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Why the fvck does she still have your ring? 

Text her and tell her you want it back.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> You are right. But is there something between you and her that is more than friendship? Maybe not romantic or sexual but possibly something that could interfere with your other relationships, whether or not you know this. Just a thought. You are fixated on her a lot. And talk about her as much as your ex-f.
> 
> I hope you find peace after all this. Peace for your ex too.


Your very astute.My counsellor said the same before I stopped going to her.


----------



## estes

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Your very astute.My counsellor said the same before I stopped going to her.


That's why therapists aren't usually so straightforward and honest with their clients. If they don't tell them what they want to hear or conversely, tell them what they're not willing to hear, they won't be filling their appointment slots regularly.


Andy if nothing else, please take a few minutes and read this thread. You WILL find it useful, I promise.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/345346-public-service-announcement.html


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> Pay no mind
> 
> 
> 
> Your accountant just confirmed what we all knew.
> 
> 
> 
> You were her savior paycheck.
> 
> 
> 
> I will leave this thread if you try to help her even if you
> 
> can make money on the deal.
> 
> 
> 
> Not your circus. Not your monkeys.




Wow. You do know the woman is a real person, right? You would rather she go bankrupt than you giving up your enjoyment of posting on this thread?


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Andy are you a city dweller? May I ask where you live?




I want to know too. If they live close by me I want to borrow Ally and have her accompany me to the bar.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The barman said if he comes up he will get the bouncers to throw him out.I said not to worry about it because this ******* wasn't going to do anything.He came up to the bar and ordered a couple of drinks,stared hard at me and then sat down again.*I got up and I really wanted to punch the **** out of this guy,all the frustration of the last few weeks was coming out.I stood in front of him and asked him what his problem was and did he want to come outside to sort it out.*She got really mouthy and started screaming obscenities at me but the guy did nothing.The bouncers came over and told me to either go back to the bar or get out.


Since you can't handle your booze stay out of bars.

Initially you said the guy wasn't going to do anything ( and your beef is with some woman anyway!)

The bartender says he'll throw the other guy if he starts a drama....so you go up to them and start the drama?? wtf.

Leave them alone. Grow up. And since you can't handle the booze stay off it - you are where you are because you clearly seek out ways of making issues


----------



## kristin2349

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> I want to know too. If they live close by me I want to borrow Ally and have her accompany me to the bar.


Settle down @blueinbr you don't need another Bisexual "friend" to hang out in bars with. That was what landed you here to begin with remember.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well the good news is Ally is not investing in my exf's business.
> The bad news is my ex still thinks we are engaged.I was on Facebook this morning and she had updated her profile picture(she looked great) and commented she was looking forward to next year and the wedding and she was flashing her (my?) engagement ring.She commented that unforeseen circumstances had forced the postponement of her marriage to a "wonderful man" but she hoped to be a spring bride.
> She can hope.
> The other side of the coin is she is close to bankruptcy in her business.
> The accountant I use had some of his guys go through her paper work and she is just keeping her head above water but has the premises mortgaged and is stuck with massive maintenance contracts on her machinery.She bought new equipment a couple of years ago and apparently signed up for a five year maintenance contract even though a lot of this equipment has only about a two year life cycle.I checked how much second hand gym equipment was selling for and some of it couldn't be given away.There is a mileage counter on this stuff and once it reaches a certain amount it's not worth repairing and also becomes obsolete quickly.The maintenance contract doesn't cover spare parts just labor.She has to pay thousands for nothing.
> Ally has just left,she has been told not to invest right now but if my ex declares bankruptcy to try and get a deal with the bank.
> This will be a terrible blow to my ex and despite all that has gone on I would hate to see her lose something she has spent her life building up.
> Once I got rid of Ally I called the accountant and got more info.The building is worth close to a mill but has a six hundred grand mortgage on it and is three months in arrears.The equipment is ok but would be sold for scrap value if she goes bust.I know the manager of the bank involved and I called him.He couldn't go into much detail but he said the vultures would soon be circling and if another payment was missed the bank would have to take action.The stupid thing is the business on its own without dept is very profitable,my ex took her eye off the ball and now is in trouble.




Her business should be none of your business now. Why do you keep looking into it? Are you so vengeful that you would buy her failing business and rub it in her face? Let somebody else deal with it!

Also, why does she have your ring still? And WHY do you have access to her on Facebook? Block, block, block! You said you had her blocked everywhere. So was this a moment of weekness, or did you not block her in the first place? You will also need to check your security settings to see what she can see on your FB. 

You also made it seem earlier on that you told Sam that the money came from you, and that it was 1% and you explained the reasoning behind it. That's not your story to tell. That's not for you to gossip about! You said you told her to ask Ally, but you had basically given her everything she needed anyway. So if they break up over this - that's on your head for getting involved. Stay out of other people's relationships. Including your ex's. 

And for the love of God... Get your engagement ring back! Legally it's still yours as an engagement ring is a declaration of an intent to wed. Your not married. It's not hers. Show her that you are done, once and for all.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

This is going to be my last post on tam for a while,maybe for good.There are a few points I want to straighten out first.I have been awake since yesterday morning so if there are any spelling errors then forgive me.
I have been very stupid to think one month no contact with my ex would be enough to get over her.If anything I feel worse now than a month ago.
I will ask my ex to take off her engagement ring.I don't want it back.
Someone asked was I that vindictive that I want to buy my exf's business just to rub her nose in it.I take no pleasure in my exf's business failing and I made that point earlier.I thought that was a ****ty comment to make but I did ask for advice,however I would never try to profit from her misfortune.
I will not see my ex and her son penniless,they were both part of my life for a long time.
I take full responsibility for the row in the bar.I don't often lose my temper but I did on Saturday.I had only started my second drink so I don't think it was alcohol related as has been suggested.

I did not tell Sam how much money Ally had or how much if any of my company she owned as has been suggested.
I did not know how bad things had got between them until Ally wanted to buy into my exf's business,up until then I just thought it was a lovers tiff.
I genuinely don't think I can be blamed if they eventually split up.

I did not fall out with my counsellor as has been suggested.I went to see her to get advice on my relationship and she gave me her honest opinion.She wanted to delve further into my relationship with my brother and also my feelings about my parents and how they died but I think that is for another time.I did part on good terms with her though.

I would like to thank all the people who took an interest in my problem and especially those who gave me honest advice.The problem is it is so contradictory.
I think this is something I will have to sort out myself.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Good luck, Andy....

Don't go back....I think you dodged a bullet.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She was planning to marry Andy but she hadn't revealed her financial situation. A situation she was hoping he would take care of.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well, update us when the wedding happens. Good luck.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Look, you don't have to be her knight in shining armor. You really don't. She has her family for support should she need them. You are not responsible for her poor business decisions. You don't owe her anything. She sees you as nothing more than an ATM, a sugar daddy.

I hope you'll update us on her [and your] situation; just don't reconnect with her.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



> Well, update us when the wedding happens. Good luck.



Whose? Ally and Sam, or Andy getting back with his ex in six months?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Whose? Ally and Sam, or Andy getting back with his ex in six months?


Go read his goodbye post. Skip all of the clarify stuff and pay attention to his words.
It's pretty clear.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Go read his goodbye post. Skip all of the clarify stuff and pay attention to his words.
> 
> It's pretty clear.




I wasn't asking you for clarification, which is why your name was not in the quote. My post was suggesting future possibilities whether or not you agree. Yes, i read all the posts.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> I wasn't asking you for clarification, which is why your name was not in the quote.


You quoted my exact words and asked a question. So, It's fine I answered your question of _possibilities_ since you used MY WORDS.

Removing a name....LOL


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@Andy1001, in the other thread about the trouble with EvinRude58's gf, you said that your exgf got a lot of your money? How did that happen?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I bailed her out and bought her business.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Not surprised.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Holy hell...unbelievable. After all that advice from the folks here and you caved...


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It is clear that you love her. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> It is clear that you love her. Nothing wrong with that.


I couldn't let her lose everything,we are not together though.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Holy hell...unbelievable. After all that advice from the folks here and you caved...


Yeah I know but what can you do.


----------



## Young at Heart

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I take my advice back, I didn't read through all 36 pages first. OMG!


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I look forward to the thread after you marry her and have to divorce her because she cheats, and you end up heart-broken, having to pay alimony and child support.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> I look forward to the thread after you marry her and have to divorce her because she cheats, and you end up heart-broken, having to pay alimony and child support.


You may not believe this but I have had no personal contact with my ex in over two months.I bought her business to prevent her being declared bankrupt but it was through lawyers and bankers.
I accept that I still love her but I know she has no love for me and that is killing me.

If money could make you happy I would be the happiest man in the world.I am alone right now in a huge house that should have a family living in it.
Too all the people that think being rich would solve all their problems I would tell them this.
The worst feeling in the world is being alone.
If you have someone that loves you for yourself then you are a wealthy man.


----------



## Evinrude58

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Wishing you the best in finding a good woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Nothing can buy happiness. Happiness comes from within yourself. Having a wife or girlfriend isn't going to make you happy. Possessions or people aren't going to make you happy. You have to make peace with yourself, love who you are, and be happy with what you have. There are miserable billionaires and happy poor people, and vise versa.

STOP fixating and helping a woman that doesn't care for you. If she's going broke, let her go broke. Make her live her life on her own. What good came from you spending your money to bail her out? She got what she wanted, she is bailed out and happy, and you are out tons of cash and miserable. Let her make her own way, and go find a woman that wants to be your partner, and help you make a happy life.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Why do you think she does not love you?


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Look, you don't have to be her knight in shining armor. You really don't. She has her family for support should she need them. You are not responsible for her poor business decisions. You don't owe her anything. She sees you as nothing more than an ATM, a sugar daddy.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you'll update us on her [and your] situation; just don't reconnect with her.




This. So much. Especially in light of what he's just done. She's not your responsibility Andy. 

Did you at least fire the staff she had working for her that was trying to hook up with you? Is she still managing the company?

Didn't you say a while back that she made a very poor choice with the equipment she brought, and the extravagant maintenance plans? How are you working through that?


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The accountant I use had some of his guys go through her paper work and she is just keeping her head above water but has the premises mortgaged and is stuck with massive maintenance contracts on her machinery.She bought new equipment a couple of years ago and apparently signed up for a five year maintenance contract even though a lot of this equipment has only about a two year life cycle.I checked how much second hand gym equipment was selling for and some of it couldn't be given away.There is a mileage counter on this stuff and once it reaches a certain amount it's not worth repairing and also becomes obsolete quickly.The maintenance contract doesn't cover spare parts just labor.She has to pay thousands for nothing.
> Ally has just left,she has been told not to invest right now but if my ex declares bankruptcy to try and get a deal with the bank.


Ah, there it is.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Why do you think she does not love you?


I should not be posting when I have been drinking and I was drunk when I posted the last few threads.I was at a wedding yesterday and it was in the hotel where my wedding was supposed to happen next month.I drank too much and then ended up going home and as usual I couldn't sleep so I went on tam and you know the rest.I was just feeling sorry for myself and the alcohol acted as a depressant which did not help.
To be honest I don't know if my ex has any feelings for me one way or the other.Even though I bailed her out we have had no personal contact or any phone calls with each other.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> This. So much. Especially in light of what he's just done. She's not your responsibility Andy.
> 
> Did you at least fire the staff she had working for her that was trying to hook up with you? Is she still managing the company?
> 
> Didn't you say a while back that she made a very poor choice with the equipment she brought, and the extravagant maintenance plans? How are you working through that?


If I hadn't bailed her out she would have had to declare bankruptcy and would have lost everything.The deal was only finalised last week and I have already recruited a general manager for the business.My ex wants nothing to do with it and I can't say I blame her.I paid her a lot more than I could have but that was mainly for the boy's benefit.She did send me a voice message thanking me,it was from my lawyers office when she signed the contract as I still have her blocked on my phone.
As for the maintenance contracts my lawyers reckon they can get them cancelled or at least tied up in court for years.The loophole they found was a four hour guaranteed callout time and it turned out sometimes they were not arriving for a couple of days after been called.My ex really took her eye of the ball on this though,it was thirty two hundred a month she was paying for nothing.
The new manager is a former Olympian who wanted to come back to this area.I gave him full control but my accountant will check the books every month.As for the staff I told him who he could not hire of my exs staff and he can hire anyone else that he needs.The business can be hugely profitable if ran correctly but that is not why I bought it and if my ex can ever get the money together I will sell it back to her.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I couldn't let her lose everything,we are not together though.


Yes, you could. You broke up with her, she was abusive. She would not have been homeless, her son was living with her mom anyway.

And no, don't sell it back to her. A - she won't have the money anymore. B - she will just sink it again. C - she is **NOT** your problem. Move on. Sell it to someone else.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Young at Heart said:


> I take my advice back, I didn't read through all 36 pages first. OMG!


I don't remember you giving me any advise,but you would be one of many people who tried to help me if you did.I took some but now I think I may have taken the wrong advise.When the s*** hit the fan some posters jumped on me and told me I went too far but in reality I had been an idiot for months beforehand.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You may not believe this but I have had no personal contact with my ex in over two months.I bought her business to prevent her being declared bankrupt but it was through lawyers and bankers.
> I accept that I still love her but I know she has no love for me and that is killing me.
> 
> If money could make you happy I would be the happiest man in the world.I am alone right now in a huge house that should have a family living in it.
> Too all the people that think being rich would solve all their problems I would tell them this.
> The worst feeling in the world is being alone.
> If you have someone that loves you for yourself then you are a wealthy man.


Oh, I believe you have had no contact with her, but you are a certified, bonafide, knight-in-shining-armor who just had to swoop in to save an unworthy woman from her own poor decisions. She played the damsel in distress card and you came to her rescue.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Oh, I believe you have had no contact with her, but you are a certified, bonafide, knight-in-shining-armor who just had to swoop in to save an unworthy woman from her own poor decisions. She played the damsel in distress card and you came to her rescue.


You are one hundred percent correct.I always try to solve problems by throwing money at them and it normally works.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You are one hundred percent correct.I always try to solve problems by throwing money at them and it normally works.


Many rich people have learned this lesson the painful way: you have to learn to say "no" to others who want your money.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Many rich people have learned this lesson the painful way: you have to learn to say "no" to others who want your money.


This is hard to say without sounding like a complete ******* but the money means nothing.The only talent I have in life is making money.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> This is hard to say without sounding like a complete ******* but the money means nothing.The only talent I have in life is making money.


Many people don't appreciate what they have until it is taken away. If the UK becomes like Greece, you may care then. I'd rather you give it to total strangers who desperately need it than to her. She has been targeting you for a while now and she has achieved her objective.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Many people don't appreciate what they have until it is taken away. If the UK becomes like Greece, you may care then. I'd rather you give it to total strangers who desperately need it than to her. She has been targeting you for a while now and she has achieved her objective.


As I told a previous poster I do not live in the UK,my brother lives there not me.
I would like to know why you think I live in the UK.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, please look out for yourself. You are the most important person in your life. I know a lot of women who would see what you've done as an indication that the ex still loves them. Especially as she was lying on FB saying that the wedding had just been delayed. Make sure you don't have contact with her. She seems like the kind of women that will slip into your life very easily on a down moment, and she will be very difficult to remove again. Not many people have an ex who would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to bail them out.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> Yes, you could. You broke up with her, she was abusive. She would not have been homeless, her son was living with her mom anyway.
> 
> And no, don't sell it back to her. A - she won't have the money anymore. B - she will just sink it again. C - she is **NOT** your problem. Move on. Sell it to someone else.


Hi TaDor.
I know she will never be able to buy her business back unless she has a lottery win or something.
This business provided employment for her and her three sisters and there was a real possibility of her parents mortgaging their house to help keep it going.That would have been a futile exercise.
I care deeply for her son and I had hoped to adopt him in the future so I could not stand by and watch them lose everything.
If I'm been honest I still care for her but I don't see any way forward for us there is too much water under the bridge.
I hope you and your wife are getting on okay and I wish you the best of luck.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Andy, please look out for yourself. You are the most important person in your life. I know a lot of women who would see what you've done as an indication that the ex still loves them. Especially as she was lying on FB saying that the wedding had just been delayed. Make sure you don't have contact with her. She seems like the kind of women that will slip into your life very easily on a down moment, and she will be very difficult to remove again. Not many people have an ex who would pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to bail them out.


We are still in NC.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

On a completely different note there are two gay women blogging on utube and their names are Sam and Alwyssa.I have been asked if these are my friends Sam and Ally.They are not, though Ally did get a kick out of me telling her about them.I think she has the hots for one of them lol.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

On another completely different note I have a temporary male house guest.He is very friendly and is always glad to see me and has no problem doing what he is told unlike most of my previous guests.He also has four legs and a tail.
It is my neighbours guide dog,my neighbour is visiting his daughter who lives in Italy and he asked me how did I feel about looking after Hooch(the dog) for two weeks.I was delighted to oblige and he moved in today.This dog is so smart it is scary.He loves swimming so I will bring him to the lake every day and there is a woods with a couple of miles of paths so both of us will get exercised.
The reason he (Hooch)isn't going to Europe is the quarantine laws and it is a long flight anyway.My neighbour thinks I am doing him a favour but I am delighted to have the dog for a couple of weeks.I would love to get myself a dog but with my lifestyle it would not be fair on the dog.
My neighbour is a really great guy.He lost his sight about twenty years ago in a car accident but he is one of the most positive people I know.He lives very near me with his wife, their youngest son is at college in Boston.Their daughter lives in Milan and they try to visit regularly.He has asked me about my relationship breakup but he doesn't try to interfere.
When I was collecting Hooch their pastor was there and he seemed very interested in what I did for a living.He asked me would I consider volunteering at the local community centre.He said a lot of people donate used computers but the problem is teaching people who have never used one.A lot of people with addiction or mental health problems call in there every day and he thinks if they had even basic IT skills they would have a better chance of getting a job.Im not sure if I could teach anybody anything but I said I would consider it.It would give me something to do and I have a lot of spare time.Im just not sure if I would have the patience for this.When it comes to IT I am completely self taught,I have no degrees or masters in this subject.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Okay... good job on the NC. I can see your angle... its not great to have done such a thing, but its *WHO* you are... and really, you will eventually meet a better woman who deserves someone like you.

I give you big-time points for heaving a heart for a child who has a mother now worthy of him.

If you are good about making money, talk to me... I have ideas. Good ones too... make more money. 

Unfortunately, this infidelity episode has hurt my biz and my time went towards dealing with my broken family than business. I'm like 9 months busted because of it.


----------



## Sephirox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If tattoo's are a deal breaker for you, then I don't know what else you can do about it if she's set on having this tattoo done.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Sephirox said:


> If tattoo's are a deal breaker for you, then I don't know what else you can do about it if she's set on having this tattoo done.


This has gone way beyond the tattoo my friend.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I would like some people's opinions on this.My ex has returned all the extra money I paid her when I bought her business.I was walking my neighbours dog today and when I came back to where I was parked my ex was parked beside my car.When I appeared she drove away but there was an envelope on my windscreen and there was a cheque for all the money I paid her above the valuation of her business.She had enclosed a note that said she is not a gold digger and just wanted what the business was worth and no more.
I did pay her more than I could have but I didn't want her and her son to be strapped for money.I kept her sisters on in the gym and offered her the managers job but she turned it down.
I will admit this has me baffled because I had myself convinced she had been after my money for months and now this.
She also said in her note that we need to talk and it is not just about the two of us any more.
I am getting a bad feeling about this.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would like some people's opinions on this.My ex has returned all the extra money I paid her when I bought her business.I was walking my neighbours dog today and when I came back to where I was parked my ex was parked beside my car.When I appeared she drove away but there was an envelope on my windscreen and there was a cheque for all the money I paid her above the valuation of her business.She had enclosed a note that said she is not a gold digger and just wanted what the business was worth and no more.
> I did pay her more than I could have but I didn't want her and her son to be strapped for money.I kept her sisters on in the gym and offered her the managers job but she turned it down.
> I will admit this has me baffled because I had myself convinced she had been after my money for months and now this.
> She also said in her note that we need to talk and it is not just about the two of us any more.
> I am getting a bad feeling about this.


Deposit the money and forget the talk.

It's called manipulation.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would like some people's opinions on this.My ex has returned all the extra money I paid her when I bought her business.I was walking my neighbours dog today and when I came back to where I was parked my ex was parked beside my car.When I appeared she drove away but there was an envelope on my windscreen and there was a cheque for all the money I paid her above the valuation of her business.She had enclosed a note that said she is not a gold digger and just wanted what the business was worth and no more.
> I did pay her more than I could have but I didn't want her and her son to be strapped for money.I kept her sisters on in the gym and offered her the managers job but she turned it down.
> I will admit this has me baffled because I had myself convinced she had been after my money for months and now this.
> She also said in her note that we need to talk and it is not just about the two of us any more.
> I am getting a bad feeling about this.


Of course, she's not a gold digger when it comes to chump change. That's why she said she wanted someone to take care of her.
If she's pregnant, you are screwed.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Of course, she's not a gold digger when it comes to chump change. That's why she said she wanted someone to take care of her.
> If she's pregnant, you are screwed.


It wasn't chump change I can tell you.She could have lived off it for a few years.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She wasn't after your money. 

Any chance she is pregnant?


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It wasn't chump change I can tell you.She could have lived off it for a few years.


I meant chump change compared to what you are worth. If she wasn't after your money, why did she accept you buying her business at all?


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It wasn't chump change I can tell you.She could have lived off it for a few years.


Perhaps she's insulted by being a charity case.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Jeez. All these people are going to pump you up. If you think she might be pregnant , hear her out. 

Yes everyone will tell you to get a paternity test.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So she's after your money enough to get you to buy out her business.. But now that she has a new card in her pocket, she's wanting to get on your good side. She must know that your worth a lot of money. Have you ever mentioned to her in the past your thoughts on woman with the man just for the money? Women remember everything! (Well, everything they deem important.) and she will be trying to get onto your good side. Interested to what this news will be.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> I meant chump change compared to what you are worth. If she wasn't after your money, why did she accept you buying her business at all?


She would have lost the business anyway.She owed too much money and needed to borrow to improve her equipment.This is not the same type of equipment that you would have in a home gym,it is hugely expensive.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> She wasn't after your money.
> 
> Any chance she is pregnant?


That's what I'm starting to think.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



dubsey said:


> Perhaps she's insulted by being a charity case.


I really fcukin hope so.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That's what I'm starting to think.


When was the last time you and her hooked up?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> So she's after your money enough to get you to buy out her business.. But now that she has a new card in her pocket, she's wanting to get on your good side. She must know that your worth a lot of money. Have you ever mentioned to her in the past your thoughts on woman with the man just for the money? Women remember everything! (Well, everything they deem important.) and she will be trying to get onto your good side. Interested to what this news will be.


The company I do most of my business with is in Germany.They were involved in a tax investigation last year and all their financial records became public knowledge including their payments to me.There was a few journalists following this story and one of them figured out that a company in the US had been paid a lot of money by a German manufacturing company and of course my name was mentioned.It never went any further because my tax affairs are in order but up until then a lot of local people thought I was just living off a trust fund and even my ex didn't really know how much I made.
She never mentioned this and I only discussed it with my accountant and lawyers.They knew I was tax compliant but could do nothing about my name appearing in the financial papers and Internet.It was all over in a few days because there was no story really but I'm wondering who else has seen this and knows how much I was paid.
I don't remember ever discussing gold diggers with my ex,she always paid her own way and I never felt she was with me for my money.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She better not be pregnant... you maybe screwed big time. That kind of "we need to talk" thing is "uh oh". Or SHE could have just talked to you right there and then. When things are going south, its common for someone to get pregnant... 

I remember it like it was yesterday when my wife sent me a text "I love you. We need to talk. when you coming home?" 
I was in a business meeting with a friend, I tossed my phone on the table and told him "Uh oh. Looks like I'm gonna be a dad" An hour later, confirmed. But I have that memory as happiness.

Good luck Andy.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> When was the last time you and her hooked up?


We last had sex on the eight of July.The original plan was for her to go off the pill three months before the original wedding date but when we started having problems I assumed she had kept taking it.
I know what assume means,make an ass of u and me.


----------



## Tron

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She also said in her note that we need to talk and it is not just about the two of us any more.
> I am getting a bad feeling about this.





Andy1001 said:


> We last had sex on the eight of July.The original plan was for her to go off the pill three months before the original wedding date but when we started having problems I assumed she had kept taking it.
> I know what assume means,make an ass of u and me.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Glad to hear things were no nc but I see there are recent developments.
The timing is dead on for pregnancy.
I do hope she's not so you can finally move on....a baby sort of will throw a wrench in things.
Hopefully she's not and it's about something else all together.
If she is you have issues already as she has started playing games. Instead of telling you right then and there she chose to wait and keep you dangling.
Not good.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We last had sex on the eight of July.The original plan was for her to go off the pill three months before the original wedding date but when we started having problems I assumed she had kept taking it.
> I know what assume means,make an ass of u and me.


And she's just discovering she's pregnant now? Three and a half months later? That is odd. Most women would know they are knocked up way before that. I wonder if she got impregnated by some other guy and is trying to make you Mr. Cuckoo? Be careful.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> And she's just discovering she's pregnant now? Three and a half months later? That is odd. Most women would know they are knocked up way before that. I wonder if she got impregnated by some other guy and is trying to make you Mr. Cuckoo? Be careful.


It's two and a half months.I am already trying to find out about dna testing of a baby in the womb,it appears it can be done.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> Glad to hear things were no nc but I see there are recent developments.
> The timing is dead on for pregnancy.
> I do hope she's not so you can finally move on....a baby sort of will throw a wrench in things.
> Hopefully she's not and it's about something else all together.
> If she is you have issues already as she has started playing games. Instead of telling you right then and there she chose to wait and keep you dangling.
> Not good.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We have had no contact for ten weeks and I had her blocked everywhere.Even when I bought her business I never had any personal contact with her.I will have to call her tomorrow and see what the story is but I can guess what's coming.
If she is over ten weeks pregnant then I am fairly sure it is mine because she was not cheating on me nor me on her.


----------



## manfromlamancha

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Wow, what a thread! I just finished reading your story. So my thoughts actually run contrary to the general thinking on this thread. Some of this may not be what you expect to hear so brace yourself.

First of all I do think your ex fiancee is not a bad person - a bit insecure because of her baby daddy, but generally a straight forward (maybe slightly bossy) and loving person who genuinely loved you but lived in constant fear of being dumped by you. And for good reason I might add.


Secondly, you sir, are a narcissist! You have been a player and seem to enjoy stating that you are handsome and a catch! You also appear to be controlling, selfish and cruel and do not understand human relationships and the meaning of compromise. You might actually have been in love with being in love. You should consider the fact that perhaps your brother saw something in you that I am sensing across the internet. You certainly seem to have argued with everyone that called you out on your behaviour. And you are entitled - which makes you an OK small-sized business owner - but when it comes to bigger business, you lack the empathy with different people.


In business you strike me as ruthless and I am seeing that in your personal life too.


I hope your ex-fiancee's picker improves - she tends to pick men that are bad for her. I hope she finds someone that is truly loving.


Tattoos indeed. If they are ugly, then at least it is ugliness on the outside when one can clearly see it. Much better than ugliness on the inside.


As for you, I hope the Karma bus doesn't catch up with you. Good luck.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Isn't it time for an update on the Ally and Sam story? :wink2:


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Could you call her mum? Keeping with the NC theme. Whatever it it is, I have a feeling it's something designed to win you back. If you can talk to her through someone else, it will throw a spanner in the works of her trying to emotionally blackmail you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



manfromlamancha said:


> Wow, what a thread! I just finished reading your story. So my thoughts actually run contrary to the general thinking on this thread. Some of this may not be what you expect to hear so brace yourself.
> 
> First of all I do think your ex fiancee is not a bad person - a bit insecure because of her baby daddy, but generally a straight forward (maybe slightly bossy) and loving person who genuinely loved you but lived in constant fear of being dumped by you. And for good reason I might add.
> 
> 
> Secondly, you sir, are a narcissist! You have been a player and seem to enjoy stating that you are handsome and a catch! You also appear to be controlling, selfish and cruel and do not understand human relationships and the meaning of compromise. You might actually have been in love with being in love. You should consider the fact that perhaps your brother saw something in you that I am sensing across the internet. You certainly seem to have argued with everyone that called you out on your behaviour. And you are entitled - which makes you an OK small-sized business owner - but when it comes to bigger business, you lack the empathy with different people.
> 
> 
> In business you strike me as ruthless and I am seeing that in your personal life too.
> 
> 
> I hope your ex-fiancee's picker improves - she tends to pick men that are bad for her. I hope she finds someone that is truly loving.
> 
> 
> Tattoos indeed. If they are ugly, then at least it is ugliness on the outside when one can clearly see it. Much better than ugliness on the inside.
> 
> 
> As for you, I hope the Karma bus doesn't catch up with you. Good luck.


Why don't you tell me what you really think.lol.
You have made a few points in your post and whether I agree or not I did ask for advice.

You said I was a player and I agree I was.The important word here is WAS.In the five years I was with my ex I never cheated on her.Im not looking for a medal,this is just a fact.

You said I was ruthless in business.I paid my ex far in excess of what her business was Independently valued at,I stress the word independently.I bought her business to stop her going bankrupt.You are entitled to call that controlling or ruthless but I don't see it like that and she left me a thank you message the day the deal was signed.

You said she lived in fear of me leaving her but it was her that brought up the tattoo which was my deal breaker, I have a real phobia about tattoos and she knows this.

I was asked a question from a previous poster which was I handsome and I answered it honestly.However I think my ex is absolutely beautiful and I made that point also.

Now this is something I didn't expect, that someone would bring up my brother in a positive manner.Let me tell you something about my brother,he is a world class *******,ex military and now a "security consultant"and thinks he's a tough guy because he can carry a gun.It was that prick and his fcukin gun that caused the worst thing that ever happened to me in my life and he refuses to take any responsibility for it.
Even at the reading of our parents will he had to act like an overbearing prick,the lawyer even had to ask him to tone down his language.That was what finished me and him,Ally got us back in touch but it is very strained.We are happier with an ocean separating us.
However,thanks for taking the time to write on my thread,I need all the advice I can get.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Isn't it time for an update on the Ally and Sam story? :wink2:


I'm starting to think that you have a crush on a gay woman who you have never seen.lol.There isn't any more Ally and Sam,they split up three weeks ago.Ally is buying her own place in this area and we are going to Ireland next month for a short vacation.She is teaching some women's self defence classes in the gym but other than that she is doing nothing.
Sam could not let go of the fact that I had given Ally so much money and pretty much decided that we had betrayed her.She hinted strongly that I should have given her a share of the business as well as Ally but she never helped me and wasnt even on the scene at the start.
I stayed out of their breakup and it was only when Sam told Ally to leave that I let her move in with me.For what it's worth I don't think their relationship was going to last anyway,Sam has changed a lot in the last few and I think she feels that she has outgrown Ally.
I've suggested to Ally that she should consider going back to school but she isn't keen.She never got much of an education so I don't know what she would study anyway.
I know I have said this before but there has never been anything sexual between us.I was disappointed when I found out she was gay but we have been best friends from the day we met.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> And she's just discovering she's pregnant now? Three and a half months later? That is odd. Most women would know they are knocked up way before that. I wonder if she got impregnated by some other guy and is trying to make you Mr. Cuckoo? Be careful.


This

She would know before 3 1/2 months. Women generally start getting
sick pretty quick. I know everyone is not the same but in my experience
it doesn't take too terribly long. 

However, there was a show on tv where women supposedly never knew. Course
they were like 400 lbs.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It has been two and a half months since I slept with her.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It has been two and a half months since I slept with her.


Well pregnancy symptoms generally appear around 4 weeks not including missing her period at least twice.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> Well pregnancy symptoms generally appear around 4 weeks not including missing her period at least twice.


Your guess is as good as mine at this stage,we are supposed to talk tomorrow.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

In reply to some messages.My brother is NOT my father.He is sixteen years older than me but he is NOT my father.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Yes she is pregnant,conception around first week in July.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Is the timing right for you to be the father?

What now?


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Yes she is pregnant,conception around first week in July.


Why is she just now telling you?

Who told you the conception date?

How do they know conception date without ultrasound unless she knew
she was pregnant the whole time?

I would be real careful moving forward.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Question:

Should pregnant women get tattoos?


When did she know she was pregnant?


----------



## Mrs.Sav

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> I would have nasty sex with a tattooed woman, but I would not marry a tattooed woman.


Bandit, I know you’ve been posting awhile and I am usually in agreeance with you (I mostly lurk) however, this is offensive as you have just openly admitted to using someone for sex with the intent of never committing to them (simply because you do not like the fact that the person has tattoos). Not a very benevolent thing to do or say.


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy1001 I have been a long time lurker but finally registered after reading your entire story here. I know that I am late to this thread but my story...

My wife and I were together for three years before we got married. There were issues with her friends after we got engaged that nearly sabotaged us. She actually started questioning whether I was "good enough" for her because her Sorority sisters kept telling her that she could do so much better than me. I was angry. We split for a while and everyone went nuts. The crazy came out and I wanted to be gone. She's not perfect but neither am I. Ultimately I had to admit that I still loved her, wanted to live my life with her, and she felt the same. I swallowed my pride and we worked through it. We will celebrate 30 years of marriage this year. All of those friends? None of them have been in our lives for years, and judging from facebook most of them have three decades of relationship wreckage in their wake. As for us, it's been quite a ride. 

You mentioned recently that you still care for her but too much water has passed under the bridge. I thought that too at one point years ago. If you don't love her then it's done regardless of the baby. But is it?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MSalmoides said:


> Andy1001 I have been a long time lurker but finally registered after reading your entire story here. I know that I am late to this thread but my story...
> 
> My wife and I were together for three years before we got married. There were issues with her friends after we got engaged that nearly sabotaged us. She actually started questioning whether I was "good enough" for her because her Sorority sisters kept telling her that she could do so much better than me. I was angry. We split for a while and everyone went nuts. The crazy came out and I wanted to be gone. She's not perfect but neither am I. Ultimately I had to admit that I still loved her, wanted to live my life with her, and she felt the same. I swallowed my pride and we worked through it. We will celebrate 30 years of marriage this year. All of those friends? None of them have been in our lives for years, and judging from facebook most of them have three decades of relationship wreckage in their wake. As for us, it's been quite a ride.
> 
> You mentioned recently that you still care for her but too much water has passed under the bridge. I thought that too at one point years ago. If you don't love her then it's done regardless of the baby. But is it?


Thank you for your comments,you have gave me something to think about.


----------



## GreyEcho

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

The way I see it is, you were up front with her from the beginning on your feelings about tattoo's.. Stick to it... If she is willing to go back on that on a whim.. what next ??


----------



## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

This is no longer about his feelings about tattoos. That is the least of his problems. He now is looking at paternity issues. Whether he still cares for her or not, this is a real issue! Whether he still cares for her or not he has to deal with this.

My advice is... get a DNA test!! Make sure the baby is yours before you dedicate the next 20 years of your life and earnings to it's existence.


----------



## caruso

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GreyEcho said:


> The way I see it is, you were up front with her from the beginning on your feelings about tattoo's.. Stick to it... If she is willing to go back on that on a whim.. what next ??


I think they're way past that.


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



GreyEcho said:


> The way I see it is, you were up front with her from the beginning on your feelings about tattoo's.. Stick to it... If she is willing to go back on that on a whim.. what next ??


From what I can tell the issue was more than getting a tattoo. She didn't really want it from what I can tell. The real issue is the outsized influence her friends have on her and their dismissive attitude towards Andy1001's feelings. How many of those friends are in a meaningful, committed, life-long partnership? Some expressed regret to him later for pushing him too far. They had no business interfering in the relationship. It wasn't their happiness at stake. As a result there is regret, sorrow, and an uncertain future. None of her friends have to live with the consequences for the lives they wrecked. Men and women generally have different takes on friendships. My wife would listen to her friends more than she would me, took their advice, and would tell them everything about us. It almost wrecked us. But to be fair my wife and I didn't fully grasp what getting married meant at the time. Then we talked long and hard about it.

When we reconciled all those years ago, we agreed that our marriage would be a life partnership that had to come before anything else. Friends included. There are some things that should stay strictly between a husband and wife. We had to learn that our relationship comes first, and that means respect for each other's perspective. For example, a long time ago my wife wanted to have some cosmetic surgery done and had the money to do it. I was completely against it. Yes, it is her body but why the heck did she need to do that to herself if her life partner believed that she was already beautiful and loved her the way she was? Because her single friends were doing it. Today she is very glad not to have done it and so am I. When two become one some things simply change. One of those is that decisions about our bodies should not be ours alone...contrary to popular belief. This is why I took so much interest in this thread because I feel as though I was in Andy1001's position a long time ago. Hindsight is 20/20 so looking back I am so thankful to have worked it out with her. Believe me, I have given in on things I wanted to do in order to respect her perspective as well. I'd be living in a sea of regret had I not.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I called my ex yesterday and arranged to meet early this morning down at the lake where I bring the dog.She was there before me and came over and got into my car when I arrived.She handed me a few sheets of paper and one of them was an ultrasound report that she had got on Monday.
It said she was pregnant and that's that.
One of the other pages gave some dates and the likelihood that she got pregnant around the first week in July.We were sleeping together at that stage.
She also gave me some brochures on prenatal dna testing.
I wasn't too surprised because I kinda figured she was pregnant but to have it confirmed was still unsettling.She hadn't looked at me up until then but then she turned to me and asked me what I was thinking.All of my old feelings for her were flooding back to me by now and I knew I had to be careful what I said and did.

When I didn't answer she told me that whatever I thought about her,she had never cheated on me from the day we met and she said I could get the dna test done immediately,she started swearing that the baby was mine over and over.
I just looked at her and I told her I believed her and I do.Even with all that has happened I never thought she had cheated on me.
I told her I needed to let the dog out so we went for a walk in the woods with him.She started talking and I just let her carry on.She stopped taking the pill in June as we had planned and when she didn't have her period in July she just thought it was because of being on the pill for so long.She said she never even thought about her period in August because of us splitting up and it was only when she didn't have it in September she began to fear the worst.She hasn't told anyone else and asked me what did I want her to do.
I told her straight out that I wanted her to have the baby and I would support her fully.She then said she was afraid I would want her to have an abortion.I asked her what she wanted to do and she said she was going to have the baby anyway even if I had asked her to have an abortion.
She again brought up the prenatal dna test but I would be afraid of harming the baby and anyway I know it's mine and I told her that.She then insisted that when the baby is born there would be a test performed.
I needed time to think so we changed the subject and I asked how things were at home.She said that since she lost the business and her sisters don't work for her any more they are not so keen to help her with her son and her mother expects her to do most of the housekeeping seeing as she isn't working.
I asked her why she had returned the money I gave her and she said she didn't want me to think she was only ever after my money and once she got her depts paid then she couldn't accept my money.I told her she could have bought an apt or a house but she said it wasn't right.


There is one thing that has bothered me from the start of this and I asked her about it.I still can't believe that we were together for five years and she didn't know Ally was gay.She swore that I had never told her and it used to upset her when I mentioned I was going to visit Ally.I still can't get my head around this but I have always felt that a persons sexuality was their own business and I can't actually remember mentioning it anyway.I lived with so many gay people over the years that sometimes I forgot they were gay.I asked her how did she feel about it now and she said she was fine with it and that Sam had told her Ally was far more likely to hit on her ( my ex) than me. I told her that Sam and Ally had split up and she was shocked.She asked me was Ally staying with me because her sisters had told her Ally was teaching martial arts at her old business and I said she was.I again asked her did she think there was something between us but she said no,of course not.
I again asked her how was she for money and she said she was fine.
She then told me that she had seen the report on the Internet which mentioned that my company and its shareholders had been involved with a company accused of tax evasion but she knew I was "too honest" to be involved.I asked her did she know if anyone else had read it and she said it is common knowledge around town and everyone had been talking about it.She said a lot of people had been under the impression I was a trust fund brat but she knew that I had my own business for years.She didn't ask me who the shareholders were who were alluded to in the report.There are only two shareholders Ally has one percent and I have the rest.
We went back to the car park and she had to go to bring her son to school.
We just stood looking a each other and I really wanted to hug her but I didn't.She is telling her parents tonight and I think that's is when the **** will hit the fan.
I told her to ring me tonight and we will talk again.


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We just stood looking a each other and I really wanted to hug her but I didn't.


I know the feeling. This says a lot.


----------



## caruso

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

With a kid on the way maybe the two of you can get into counseling or something and try to find a way to make this work.

You're going to be connected to each other through that child for the better part of the next twenty years.

That's a good chunk of the rest of your natural life.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Have her take a poly to confirm she had never cheated on you. Use your resources to find the best polygraph expert for that poly. That could be the first brick to build that foundation of trust from which to start with. Then get into counseling.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Mrs.Sav said:


> Bandit, I know you’ve been posting awhile and I am usually in agreeance with you (I mostly lurk) however, this is offensive as you have just openly admitted to using someone for sex with the intent of never committing to them (simply because you do not like the fact that the person has tattoos). Not a very benevolent thing to do or say.


Well.... Yeah. But I would thank her afterwards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I called Sam because I had a few questions about the pregnancy.She was a bit short at first but when I told her why I was calling she told me she would get a friend of hers to ring me.We chatted for a while but it was very awkward.I eventually asked her what she was going to do about her and Ally and she said they are finished and she had moved on.I asked her was there anyone else but she didn't answer and I didn't push it.
Her friend rang me as promised,she is a nurse in the fertility clinic.I asked her was it possible to get pregnant so soon after being on the pill for years and she said it was rare but has happened on occasion.She said that they always recommend that women who come off the pill use condoms until they have their first period.She then gave me a rundown on how the pill works and the changes it causes to a woman's body.By the time she was finished talking I was sorry that I asked.
Fellas, the things women go through to have a baby would kill most men,and that's not counting actually having the baby.
I asked her about prenatal dna testing and she said it wouldn't harm the baby but I'm not keen on this as it seeme very intrusive.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Ask a doctor about the prenatal DNA testing.


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I called my ex yesterday and arranged to meet early this morning down at the lake where I bring the dog.She was there before me and came over and got into my car when I arrived.She handed me a few sheets of paper and one of them was an ultrasound report that she had got on Monday.
> It said she was pregnant and that's that.
> One of the other pages gave some dates and the likelihood that she got pregnant around the first week in July.We were sleeping together at that stage.
> She also gave me some brochures on prenatal dna testing.
> I wasn't too surprised because I kinda figured she was pregnant but to have it confirmed was still unsettling.She hadn't looked at me up until then but then she turned to me and asked me what I was thinking.All of my old feelings for her were flooding back to me by now and I knew I had to be careful what I said and did.
> 
> When I didn't answer she told me that whatever I thought about her,she had never cheated on me from the day we met and she said I could get the dna test done immediately,she started swearing that the baby was mine over and over.
> I just looked at her and I told her I believed her and I do.Even with all that has happened I never thought she had cheated on me.
> I told her I needed to let the dog out so we went for a walk in the woods with him.She started talking and I just let her carry on.She stopped taking the pill in June as we had planned and when she didn't have her period in July she just thought it was because of being on the pill for so long.She said she never even thought about her period in August because of us splitting up and it was only when she didn't have it in September she began to fear the worst.She hasn't told anyone else and asked me what did I want her to do.
> I told her straight out that I wanted her to have the baby and I would support her fully.She then said she was afraid I would want her to have an abortion.I asked her what she wanted to do and she said she was going to have the baby anyway even if I had asked her to have an abortion.
> She again brought up the prenatal dna test but I would be afraid of harming the baby and anyway I know it's mine and I told her that.She then insisted that when the baby is born there would be a test performed.
> I needed time to think so we changed the subject and I asked how things were at home.She said that since she lost the business and her sisters don't work for her any more they are not so keen to help her with her son and her mother expects her to do most of the housekeeping seeing as she isn't working.
> I asked her why she had returned the money I gave her and she said she didn't want me to think she was only ever after my money and once she got her depts paid then she couldn't accept my money.I told her she could have bought an apt or a house but she said it wasn't right.
> 
> 
> There is one thing that has bothered me from the start of this and I asked her about it.I still can't believe that we were together for five years and she didn't know Ally was gay.She swore that I had never told her and it used to upset her when I mentioned I was going to visit Ally.I still can't get my head around this but I have always felt that a persons sexuality was their own business and I can't actually remember mentioning it anyway.I lived with so many gay people over the years that sometimes I forgot they were gay.I asked her how did she feel about it now and she said she was fine with it and that Sam had told her Ally was far more likely to hit on her ( my ex) than me. I told her that Sam and Ally had split up and she was shocked.She asked me was Ally staying with me because her sisters had told her Ally was teaching martial arts at her old business and I said she was.I again asked her did she think there was something between us but she said no,of course not.
> I again asked her how was she for money and she said she was fine.
> She then told me that she had seen the report on the Internet which mentioned that my company and its shareholders had been involved with a company accused of tax evasion but she knew I was "too honest" to be involved.I asked her did she know if anyone else had read it and she said it is common knowledge around town and everyone had been talking about it.She said a lot of people had been under the impression I was a trust fund brat but she knew that I had my own business for years.She didn't ask me who the shareholders were who were alluded to in the report.There are only two shareholders Ally has one percent and I have the rest.
> We went back to the car park and she had to go to bring her son to school.
> We just stood looking a each other and I really wanted to hug her but I didn't.She is telling her parents tonight and I think that's is when the **** will hit the fan.
> I told her to ring me tonight and we will talk again.





Andy1001 said:


> I called Sam because I had a few questions about the pregnancy.She was a bit short at first but when I told her why I was calling she told me she would get a friend of hers to ring me.We chatted for a while but it was very awkward.I eventually asked her what she was going to do about her and Ally and she said they are finished and she had moved on.I asked her was there anyone else but she didn't answer and I didn't push it.
> Her friend rang me as promised,she is a nurse in the fertility clinic.I asked her was it possible to get pregnant so soon after being on the pill for years and she said it was rare but has happened on occasion.She said that they always recommend that women who come off the pill use condoms until they have their first period.She then gave me a rundown on how the pill works and the changes it causes to a woman's body.By the time she was finished talking I was sorry that I asked.
> Fellas, the things women go through to have a baby would kill most men,and that's not counting actually having the baby.
> I asked her about prenatal dna testing and she said it wouldn't harm the baby but I'm not keen on this as it seeme very intrusive.


"LOL. DNA or GTFO."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Well.... Yeah. But I would thank her afterwards.


LOL bandit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Fellas, the things women go through to have a baby would kill most men,and that's not counting actually having the baby.


You are so right. Been there, seen that!

I don't like giving advice but do want to relay my experience. Your ex's recent actions, i.e. giving the money back, anticipating your reaction and giving you information up front about DNA testing, etc. are a message. She is willing to sacrifice to show you that she can be trusted. Trap maybe? Maybe. But I saw this from my soon-to-be-wife when we were on the outs, such as willing to give up her "girls night out" adventures. We also went a while without communicating. Her actions when we did start talking again seemed to convey the same message: she wanted me back and was willing to show that she wanted to be my partner, but didn't want to be pushy. She was willing to walk away if that was what I wanted because she "didn't want a man who didn't love her" (her words). I wanted her back but was too stubborn to admit it as a young Marine. Finally, I just decided "what the Hell?" and one night went to her house and gave her that hug. Best decision that I ever made. BTW I explained your story to my wife and she read your last few posts. Brought back memories!

I'm not making any recommendations. We didn't have a baby involved and I was just starting in my career and had no assets to worry about protecting (unlike today). These are practical matters that you have to consider about any future relationship with anyone. The forums are such a limited communication tool and you can never paint the whole picture, but dang. I just get this vibe that something strong is still there. 

Fracking shame about her dumbass friends getting this whole thing started. I think they just took you and your relationship for granted. I know that it's spiraled since then but think about it. In short order, her life went from one of happiness to that of a wreck because of them, and you went from being committed to the love of your life of five years to torturing yourself. It seems to me that both of you deserve better. Thinking of you my friend!


----------



## manfromlamancha

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I'll weigh in again by saying that I really don't think your ex is a bad person and from what you have said, seems to really be in love with you. She is just a bit stubborn and afraid of losing you. She has been very decent actually.

Also in your last post I caught a glimpse of noble and upstanding Andy, so keep that up. It is also clear that you love her.

So we have a couple here that are very much in love with each other and both too stubborn to do something about it.

Be the person you are meant to be and reach out to her and help her back.

I dont agree with everyone here about kicking her to the curb - no real reason to. Also, I too don't believe that she has cheated on you.

So go get your girl and your unborn child back into your life and be happy again. Absolutely tread carefully and communicate, communicate, communicate until you are blue in the face. But do what you know what you want to do and is the right thing to do.

Do not get back together just for the kid. Do it because deep down you know its what you want and is the right thing to do.


----------



## caruso

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

^^ Good points.

The whole relationship seemed to just crash and burn over a relatively small conflict over a very short period of time. I mean, the conflict surely indicated deeper problems but I've seen a lot worse, and now you've got a baby on the way.

She seems to be remorseful, wanting to maybe work on things. 

You just might want to consider revisiting.

With professional help.


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



manfromlamancha said:


> I'll weigh in again by saying that I really don't think your ex is a bad person and from what you have said, seems to really be in love with you. She is just a bit stubborn and afraid of losing you. She has been very decent actually.
> 
> Also in your last post I caught a glimpse of noble and upstanding Andy, so keep that up. It is also clear that you love her.


This.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Sam's friend rang me back late last night.She said she may not have been clear when I asked about the prenatal dna test.Apparently it can be done with just a blood sample from the mother once she's about nine weeks pregnant.I thought it would have to be from the baby and that worried me.I think that's what we will do because my ex has no problem with it and it would clear up any doubts I have.

In reply to the poster who suggested a polygraph test,take it from someone who knows,these things are about as accurate as palm reading.You may get the "car park" confession but otherwise they are useless.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> In reply to the poster who suggested a polygraph test,take it from someone who knows,these things are about as accurate as palm reading.You may get the "car park" confession but otherwise they are useless.


The CIA, FBI, and NSA still use it, so if it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for the general public. Sure, it's not an exact science, but there is an art to it. It can be unreliable and manipulated, but most people don't know that. :wink2:


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



manfromlamancha said:


> I'll weigh in again by saying that I really don't think your ex is a bad person and from what you have said, seems to really be in love with you. She is just a bit stubborn and afraid of losing you. She has been very decent actually.
> 
> 
> 
> Also in your last post I caught a glimpse of noble and upstanding Andy, so keep that up. It is also clear that you love her.
> 
> 
> 
> So we have a couple here that are very much in love with each other and both too stubborn to do something about it.
> 
> 
> 
> Be the person you are meant to be and reach out to her and help her back.
> 
> 
> 
> I dont agree with everyone here about kicking her to the curb - no real reason to. Also, I too don't believe that she has cheated on you.
> 
> 
> 
> So go get your girl and your unborn child back into your life and be happy again. Absolutely tread carefully and communicate, communicate, communicate until you are blue in the face. But do what you know what you want to do and is the right thing to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Do not get back together just for the kid. Do it because deep down you know its what you want and is the right thing to do.




I agree..she does how we have a lot of growing up to do.
Whether you get back together or not I think you guys will make the co parenting work. 
Personally I believe her that the baby is yours and that she never cheated. But you will always have that little inkling of doubt. Because you just don't know...she was rebelling at that point and you guys weren't in a great place. I'd do the test. That way you know 100% and can step up and take responsibility. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Refresh my memory.

When did the op suspect her of cheating or sleeping around.

I followed this entire thread and don't remember it.

Sure the op's fiance is a little immature and has problems with boundaries but i 
don't remember cheating being mentioned.


----------



## Mrs.Sav

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Well.... Yeah. But I would thank her afterwards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well…yeah, you’re such the gentleman.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> Refresh my memory.
> 
> When did the op suspect her of cheating or sleeping around.
> 
> I followed this entire thread and don't remember it.
> 
> Sure the op's fiance is a little immature and has problems with boundaries but i
> don't remember cheating being mentioned.


I never thought she was cheating on me,but she accused me of cheating,with Ally for years and also with a girl in a bar.It was then suggested to me that she was projecting her cheating on to me.I still don't think she ever cheated but she is determined to prove that the baby is mine and I will let her.


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I never thought she was cheating on me,but she accused me of cheating,with Ally for years and also with a girl in a bar.It was then suggested to me that she was projecting her cheating on to me.I still don't think she ever cheated but she is determined to prove that the baby is mine and I will let her.


Smart thinking on your part.

She may be the love of your life but she needs to grow up first.

One day at a time.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Mrs.Sav said:


> Well…yeah, you’re such the gentleman.


Yes I am. :smile2: Thank you.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



ButtPunch said:


> Smart thinking on your part.
> 
> She may be the love of your life but she needs to grow up first.
> 
> One day at a time.


But she probably wants to get her nipples pierced...

And a nose ring....

And vulva piercing...


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



DouglasEdwards said:


> I think you are being unreasonable! First of all getting a tattoo or a tattoo itself should not have any significance in your relationship! You should accept you partner the way she is rather than setting some silly rules for her! Even my husband loves tattoo and he got a tattoo just before a day we got married over here in Florida, but I don't have any problems with it and love him for what he is! So you should do the same and not impose restrictions on her!


You're entitled to your opinion, and he's entitled to his. Just like your preference is right for you, his preference that his gf and potential wife not get them is right for him, so who is anyone to tell him he's wrong? He didn't force her to agree to his deal breakers; she agreed to it, willingly, and he agreed to hers. It's about respect and keeping one's word. How often do you see a supermodel tat up her body? Right, because they want to keep their classy and elegant look.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



DouglasEdwards said:


> I think you are being unreasonable! First of all getting a tattoo or a tattoo itself should not have any significance in your relationship! You should accept you partner the way she is rather than setting some silly rules for her! Even my husband loves tattoo and he got a tattoo just before a day we got married ]over here in Florida, but I don't have any problems with it and love him for what he is! So you should do the same and not impose restrictions on her!


where do you get off telling a person that a persons "dealbreaker" has no significance in the relationship.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



DouglasEdwards said:


> I think you are being unreasonable! First of all getting a tattoo or a tattoo itself should not have any significance in your relationship! You should accept you partner the way she is rather than setting some silly rules for her! Even my husband loves tattoo and he got a tattoo just before a day we got married ]over here in Florida, but I don't have any problems with it and love him for what he is! So you should do the same and not impose restrictions on her!


I feel very flattered that your first post on tam after your intro speech was to tell me how to live my life.
Is your keyboard stuck on the exclamation mark symbol,you may want to get that checked out.lol.
Welcome to tam.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

More importantly, how do YOU feel about this Andy? What are your thoughts on becoming a dad?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> More importantly, how do YOU feel about this Andy? What are your thoughts on becoming a dad?


I love the thought that a little person that is part of me is growing in my exs womb.I am also scared ****less that something could happen to hurt it.This is the biggest thing that has happened to me in my life and I am desperate to do what is right.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I love the thought that a little person that is part of me is growing in my exs womb.I am also scared ****less that something could happen to hurt it.This is the biggest thing that has happened to me in my life and I am desperate to do what is right.


Good answer.


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

1. Congrats. Nothing better in life than being a father.
2. You don't have to marry her to be a fantastic father and co-parents. Just keep that in mind.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

On Thursday I asked the person that I trust the most in the world to tell me honestly what she thought about this whole situation.It is Ally of course.She has never interfered or gave an opinion from the very start other than telling my ex that she was gay and there had never been anything between us.
She told me that it was obvious to her that I loved my ex and had never stopped loving her.
She said that one of the things that she could never understand about me was that I would do anything to help anyone without expecting thanks but if someone helped me out I always felt I had to pay them.She said that I made people think that I didn't consider them as friends,and some people were insulted by this.I didn't really see what this had to do with anything but I let her talk.She then tried to explain what she meant and said when people got annoyed with me I just completely cut them out of my life even over something minor.She said I once explained to her that in programming there could be a thousand ways to do something but once you decided which way to go you should never start second guessing about it.I still didn't really get what she was trying to say but now I think she was saying I need to learn how to compromise.This will not be easy for me because to me compromising is doing things my way.
In my business I tell my customers how much something is going to cost and I never give an inch,if they don't like it they can go somewhere else. I don't deal with individual people, I deal with large manufacturers and they can smell weakness like a shark smells blood.
I shouldn't treat other people like that though.
I really want things to be right with my ex about our baby(just typing that made me pause)and I know I am going to have to try and change my attitude.
I had a busy day yesterday with my ex and I will post again later.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> The CIA, FBI, and NSA still use it, so if it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for the general public. Sure, it's not an exact science, but there is an art to it. It can be unreliable and manipulated, but most people don't know that. :wink2:


I may be an idiot when it comes to relationships but I know my way around a circuit board.The original polygraphs worked on skin resistance,basically if you were telling a lie than you would sweat or at least get warmer and the resistance would lower.This is the same principle that an electric shock is far more dangerous if you are wet or standing in water.
More modern ones use EEG or MRI but try getting one accepted in court.If you are capable of getting worked up just by thinking about something or someone then you can fool any polygraph.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

On Friday morning my ex came out with us to the woods again.She asked me how was I feeling after having a day to think about everything.I said I still wanted her to have the baby and that I would do everything I could to support her.I asked her how did her parents take the news and she just shook her head and kinda teared up.I can imagine what happened but I didn't say anything.
She said Sam had rang her to check how she was and emailed her a lot of information on pregnancy.She again brought up this prenatal dna test and I told her the reason I hadn't been keen was I thought that blood would have to be taken from the baby but now I know it is actually from the mom.She wants us to have it to reassure me so I agreed but I made it clear that I had no doubt about it being my baby.
There are some laboratories in the next city that can do the test so I suggested we went there that day and got it out of the way.She said it's not that simple,you have to buy the kit,then get blood samples from both parents and send them back.It was too early to ring them but on their website it said you could buy the kit at the lab and bring it back with the blood samples and it took about ten days to get the result.I told her I would drive over and buy one and we could get the samples taken and I would bring them back.She suggested both of us going over and getting a local nurse or doctor to take the samples.I told her I would ring Sam and she could take them.
I again asked her about her parents and she told me her mom lost her temper and told her she had two weeks to get out or get rid of the baby.This is from a supposedly Christian woman.I told her I would take care of her and her son and our baby and just worry about herself.She said she was fine for money,she was left with about two hundred grand after the sale of the business.This is not enough to buy an apt around here but she wants to rent one.She will need a job she says.I find it so tempting to say I will buy her a house and look after everything but I'm starting to learn that throwing money at things can cause more problems than it solves and besides she already returned the money I gave her.
We arranged to meet in town after she brought her son to school and then we left.

I rang Sam,she had been working until eight and she said to come over when we got the kit and she would take the blood samples.She seemed in better form than yesterday and asked me about Ally.I told her she was still at my house and why didn't she call over.She just laughed and said stop playing Cupid and that she and Ally were over.Im very torn about this because I'm very fond of Sam but I love Ally and I don't want to see either of them upset.
I met my ex outside a coffee shop in town,we decided to take my car and leave hers in the parking lot.I wanted some coffee so we went into the shop.Now I have kept a low profile since we broke up and haven't been in town much,plus when the Internet story mentioning my company emerged I didn't want to answer any questions that some wannabe reporter wanted to ask me.When we walked into the shop I swear half the heads turned around.I went up for the coffee and the barista was one of me exs friends.She smirked at me and said I thought you two had broken up,I just ordered two drinks and ignored her.She came down to the table to say hello to my ex but didn't get much of a reception.When she left my ex said that once it became known she was going bust that a lot of her friends disappeared.I told her straight out that we were going to have to talk about her fcukin friends and we would do it on the trip to collect the test kit.As far as I'm concerned we would be preparing for a wedding if it wasn't for her friends and I wasn't going to put up with any more siht from them.She said she knew and accepted it was her telling her friends everything that had started all this.
I have to do some work so I will finish this post later.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> On Thursday I asked the person that I trust the most in the world to tell me honestly what she thought about this whole situation.It is Ally of course.She has never interfered or gave an opinion from the very start other than telling my ex that she was gay and there had never been anything between us.
> She told me that it was obvious to her that I loved my ex and had never stopped loving her.
> She said that one of the things that she could never understand about me was that I would do anything to help anyone without expecting thanks but if someone helped me out I always felt I had to pay them.She said that I made people think that I didn't consider them as friends,and some people were insulted by this.I didn't really see what this had to do with anything but I let her talk.She then tried to explain what she meant and said when people got annoyed with me I just completely cut them out of my life even over something minor.She said I once explained to her that in programming there could be a thousand ways to do something but once you decided which way to go you should never start second guessing about it.I still didn't really get what she was trying to say but now I think she was saying I need to learn how to compromise.This will not be easy for me because to me compromising is doing things my way.
> In my business I tell my customers how much something is going to cost and I never give an inch,if they don't like it they can go somewhere else. I don't deal with individual people, I deal with large manufacturers and they can smell weakness like a shark smells blood.
> I shouldn't treat other people like that though.
> I really want things to be right with my ex about our baby(just typing that made me pause)and I know I am going to have to try and change my attitude.
> I had a busy day yesterday with my ex and I will post again later.




Do you still love her? Would you be able to compromise enough to mend the relationship? Or would you prefer to co-parent? It feels like there's still a lot of unresolved feelings there. 

I think Ally was trying to say that you cut people out to quickly, and you need to try and give people more of a chance. Follow through with something (hence the circuit analogy) rather then scrapping it and starting again. In all honesty, I would trust her opinion of all of this then anyone else's. She knows who you really are. How you work in real life. People here are very knowledgable, but they don't know "you" as a whole.


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I told her straight out that we were going to have to talk about her fcukin friends and we would do it on the trip to collect the test kit.As far as I'm concerned we would be preparing for a wedding if it wasn't for her friends and I wasn't going to put up with any more siht from them.She said she knew and accepted it was her telling her friends everything that had started all this.
> I have to do some work so I will finish this post later.


Dang, I am having a flashback! This is almost how the conversation played out between my wife and me all those years ago when her nosey dumbass friends decided they knew best for my wife. Seems like your "ex" has learned an important lesson. Yet another message to you it might seem.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I'm starting to think about what Sam said to me about not having any friends.I always had plenty of friends until I was about nineteen and then they seemed to drift away.I know I prefer female company to male but with hand on heart I have never tried to hook up with any of my friends girlfriends.ButI have to be honest and say from time to time some of my friends girlfriends have made passes at me,however I never took them up on it.
I have been reading posts on tam as well as other forums and now realise that my lifestyle,especially with women is not usual.I am thirty two years old and have had one relationship in my life that lasted over a month,and I managed to screw that up.I realise that most heterosexual men do not spend years living with gay women and sometimes gay men.I have been called a "metro sexual hipster" by one poster and I have googled that and he may be right.I am trying to figure out what to do about my ex and our baby and I really am lost.
I have had some therapy in the last couple of months and I was straight up with my therapist and answered any questions he had.When I told him what had happened to my parents he was shocked.He now thinks I have abondement issues and definitely have a problem with my brother.I told him my brother should be in jail and if I had my way that's where he would be.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I like the humble introspection, Andy. You can learn much about yourself with that attitude.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I may be an idiot when it comes to relationships but I know my way around a circuit board.The original polygraphs worked on skin resistance,basically if you were telling a lie than you would sweat or at least get warmer and the resistance would lower.This is the same principle that an electric shock is far more dangerous if you are wet or standing in water.
> More modern ones use EEG or MRI but try getting one accepted in court.If you are capable of getting worked up just by thinking about something or someone then you can fool any polygraph.


You are not trying to use the results in court; it's all psychological. I didn't say it was an exact science but an art form.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

We started driving to the city to get the dna test kit and I asked my ex to spell it out to me what she thought had been the main trigger in our breakup.She said that her friends interfering in our lives was the main problem but it took her too long to realise this and by then I was pushing her away so she had no one else to confide in.I agreed with her but I admitted that I had been over the top with my reaction to the tattoo.She again said that it was a joke that had got out of hand and her pride and mine meant neither of us would back down.
She said her tattooed friend had rang her to tell her about the row in the bar and she was furious with her biker friend for not hitting me.It turns out he knew me from when I used to train at the kickboxing club in town and didn't fancy his chances.(I used to go with Ally for years to martial arts classes and I had my first Karate lesson at ten years of age.) I have never been in a street fight in my life though.My ex told me she has had no contact with the tattooed friend since.
I then said if we were going to have any sort of relationship that she had to stop telling other people our business. She said she realises now that most of them were only her friends because they worked for her or saw her as a soft touch.I didn't want to push it too much but we will revisit this topic.
We just chatted for a while about the boy and her sisters and then I asked her did her mother tell her about asking me to give her money.She was shocked at this and swore she new nothing about it.She knew her sister had asked me about investing but by then the business was too much in dept.She said she thought that Ally offering to invest was really me trying to help because where would Ally get that sort of money.I told her Ally had plenty of her own money and if the gym had been in good financial health she would have bought it herself.She was quiet for a while and then she asked me if Ally owned part of my business and I said she owned one percent and I owned the rest.She was stunned at this and said she always thought there was a group of shareholders involved,then she said so all that money mentioned in the Internet report had gone to me and I said yes.With that she started laughing and said if people knew how much money I had I would be very popular.I told her not to say a word to anyone and it was her telling people about my private life that had us where we were.This hit home and she was very quiet for the rest of the journey.
We got to the lab and I went in on my own and bought the kit.It cost twelve hundred dollars.The guy told me if we brought it back by five pm it would be ready in nine days,otherwise we could bring it back on Monday or post it.I called Sam and she said come over to her apt and she would take the samples.We got to Sams place about one and she was in good humour and hugged both of us.I could not see any evidence that she had someone else living with her but I didn't look too hard.She took the blood and I asked her to join us for lunch but she said she was going to bed because she had another night shift that night at eight.
We drove back to the lab and left the samples and then went for something to eat.On the way home I asked my ex what she planned on doing with herself work wise.She has this idea about exercise classes for pregnant women and women who had just given birth.I told her she could use one of the rooms in the gym and I would square it with the manager.We just chatted for the rest of the trip home and when we got to town she asked me did I want to come with her to collect her son,he had sports after school.I was tempted but it would have been unfair on the boy,he doesn't need me reappearing in his life if it doesn't work out.I told her to ring me if she wanted anything or to talk and I left.I did hug her though.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I think ( I may be wrong ) if you had had this conversation before, you would still be together. It's unfortunate both of you weren't this open with each other previously.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> I think ( I may be wrong ) if you had had this conversation before, you would still be together. It's unfortunate both of you weren't this open with each other previously.


I agree with you completely but we are where we are.If I thought my ex would be up for it I would like for us to try counselling together but I'm not sure if she even wants us to try again,and I don't want to get knocked back.At the moment we are friendly with each other but when it is known she is pregnant her friends will appear again and I am not going through that siht again.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I agree with you completely but we are where we are.If I thought my ex would be up for it I would like for us to try counselling together *but I'm not sure if she even wants us to try again,*and I don't want to get knocked back.At the moment we are friendly with each other but when it is known she is pregnant her friends will appear again and I am not going through that siht again.


What will it cost you to ask?


----------



## caruso

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I maybe getting ahead of myself here, but there should be a TAM table at the wedding reception.

As party gifts for the guests you can give out temporary tatoos.

Just say'en.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



caruso said:


> I maybe getting ahead of myself here, but there should be a TAM table at the wedding reception.
> 
> As party gifts for the guests you can give out temporary tatoos.
> 
> Just say'en.


Now that is funny,thanks for the laugh!!!


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, update us when the wedding happens. Good luck.






blueinbr said:


> Whose? Ally and Sam, or Andy getting back with his ex in six months?






phillybeffandswiss said:


> Go read his goodbye post. Skip all of the clarify stuff and pay attention to his words.
> 
> It's pretty clear.




So Andy, when is the wedding? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rzmpf

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> I think ( I may be wrong ) if you had had this conversation before, you would still be together. It's unfortunate both of you weren't this open with each other previously.


If they were able to communicate like that then there would not have been any of the problems OP encountered the last months. So they needed these problems to reach the point they are now.

There was no infidelity, so if both want this relationship and work on themselves and their communication this relationship is relatively easy to salvage.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> What will it cost you to ask?




I agree with asking her! Women don't get over a love quickly. (Generally) if she genuinely did love you, then there will still be a lot of feelings there for you. Ask her if she would agree to counselling to work on your relationship. If you tell her it's for your relationship and not to effectively co-parent, then she would probably jump at the chance. You haven't shown her that you want to be with her. She won't know if you don't ask.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> I agree with asking her! Women don't get over a love quickly. (Generally) if she genuinely did love you, then there will still be a lot of feelings there for you. Ask her if she would agree to counselling to work on your relationship. If you tell her it's for your relationship and not to effectively co-parent, then she would probably jump at the chance. You haven't shown her that you want to be with her. She won't know if you don't ask.


That is good advice except for one problem.If I tell my ex that I want to work on our relationship all her plans to move out and live on her own with her son may come to an end as they did the last time she suggested moving out of her parents house when we were having problems.Once she thought I was back it was all forgotten about.Her mother will back down because all that matters to her is money and if my ex is working her mother will expect to be paid for any babysitting she does.
I need her to show me she can stand on her own two feet without her parents or me there to take up the slack,so giving her the impression that I want us to get back together could be a mistake.On the other hand I'm not sure if she would even agree to us getting back together OR if I want us to get back together.We have only been talking since Thursday so there is a long road ahead.
On a different topic Hooch went home today.My neighbors returned from Italy and I brought the dog over this morning.Im really going to miss having him around he is great company.I will still try and bring him out for a walk but it won't be the same


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That is good advice except for one problem.If I tell my ex that I want to work on our relationship all her plans to move out and live on her own with her son may come to an end as they did the last time she suggested moving out of her parents house when we were having problems.Once she thought I was back it was all forgotten about.Her mother will back down because all that matters to her is money and if my ex is working her mother will expect to be paid for any babysitting she does.
> I need her to show me she can stand on her own two feet without her parents or me there to take up the slack,so giving her the impression that I want us to get back together could be a mistake.On the other hand I'm not sure if she would even agree to us getting back together OR if I want us to get back together.We have only been talking since Thursday so there is a long road ahead.
> On a different topic Hooch went home today.My neighbors returned from Italy and I brought the dog over this morning.Im really going to miss having him around he is great company.I will still try and bring him out for a walk but it won't be the same




That is true, and I get the feeling that being independent is important to you. You could either spin it that you want use a counsellor to figure out why you broke up, or counselling to co-parent. Otherwise you may need to wait a bit until you get into that. It sounds like waiting may be better at the moment. Let her show her independence. Has she found a new job?


----------



## ButtPunch

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

People who are not capable of being happy independent single adults seldom make good partners.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> That is true, and I get the feeling that being independent is important to you. You could either spin it that you want use a counsellor to figure out why you broke up, or counselling to co-parent. Otherwise you may need to wait a bit until you get into that. It sounds like waiting may be better at the moment. Let her show her independence. Has she found a new job?


My ex has never lived on her own or with roommates she has always lived at home with her parents.It has been suggested that she wasn't really raising her son and it was her mother who was doing it.That was true to a certain extent but on the other hand she was providing employment for her three sisters so her mom didn't seem to mind looking after the boy.
When we broke up originally it was part of our makeup agreement that she moved out and took time off work to be a full time mom to her son during his school summer vacation,this also came about because her mother said she would not look after the boy after our original wedding date.Then she changed her mind and was supposed to still move out but leave the boy with a child minder until school started again.Her mother decided that she would look after the boy if my ex paid her the same as the childminder was charging and within a few days all talk of moving out was forgotten about.All of this was irrelevant anyway because the business was in financial trouble and she was in danger of been declared bankrupt.
Now I know she is pregnant and that changes everything but I want her to move out anyway because she has to understand that looking after her son and our baby should be her priority and I need to know for my own peace of mind that she is capable of this.She has enough money to rent a good size apt and look after her and her son for a few years without working and when the baby comes I will pay for everything anyway.
As far as work is concerned she wants to teach keep fit classes for pregnant women and new moms.I discussed this with the gym manager and he thinks it could be a success.I will try and help her but I will not interfere.
My fear is if she thinks that I want to restart our relationship we will be back to square one and I don't want to have to be calling to her parents house every time I want to see her or our baby when it comes.Knowing her mother she would want me to pay a cover charge to let me in.
Just for comparison I left home the day after my sixteenth birthday and never slept under my parents roof again.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It's a good plan, and it sounds like you have been thinking about it for a bit. I moved out of home at 16, and without judging anyone's circumstances, I couldn't live at home until late 20's. In the 10 years I've been out of home I've had 2 kids, brought a house, advanced my career. I could never do that if mum was looking over my shoulder. 

She needs independence, especially with the baby on the way. I think you are right to hold of on the relationship for now. She needs to focus on being a mother.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I got two bits of good news today.First of all the equipment maintenance company that my ex signed an agreement with has agreed to drop the remaining three and a half years of the contract and refund the six months that were already paid for.My lawyers found a loophole which guaranteed a four hour maximum call out time but on some occasions they didn't call out for up to two days.My lawyers threatened to sue them for loss of earnings in the gym because equipment could not be used and also hinted that I would have them out every day for the remaining time on the contract.They sent me a cheque today for nineteen thousand two hundred dollars and have to pay my legal costs as well.

The second and more important piece of news is my ex is moving out from her parents house at last.She rang me on Tuesday to ask me to look at a house with her that she is thinking of leasing.Its about five minutes drive from where I live.The house has three bedrooms and a fairly big garden and will suit her fine.Its two thousand a month for a six month lease.By then she will have had the baby and we will make other arrangements after that.She told me today she is moving in on Saturday week.Im going to give her the money from the equipment insurance to buy some things for the house.
Her mother does not know that we had the prenatal test last week and is still insisting my ex either has an abortion or moves out.All she thinks is about is money.She knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.If she ever finds out how much any children of mine stand to inherit she would never let my ex leave.The money my parents left me is in a trust fund that I control.I didn't want or need their money so I set it up that if I had children it goes to them or else to my nieces and nephew.Originally I had planned to adopt my exs son when we married so he would have shared in the inheritance as well

On a different subject I realised over the last few days that I'm taking Ally and Sams breakup a lot worse than they seem to be.I asked Ally what was happening and were they getting back together and she laughed and said of course not.She said the breakup had been on the cards for a long time and Sam finding out about the money was the straw that broke the camels back.I find it strange that after over eight years together they both seem so casual about it.Im going to keep my nose out of it from now on.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I've just got an email from the lab that did the prenatal dna testing and the baby is mine.I also found out that it is a girl.My ex will have got the same email by now.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Congratulations


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Is she going to keep the baby or abort?


----------



## kristin2349

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Is she going to keep the baby or abort?



Subtle as a sledgehammer. Were we separated at birth Bandit? I got the impression she is keeping it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> Is she going to keep the baby or abort?


I hope you got a refund from the charm school.
She is keeping the baby.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@bandit.45 Screw charm, directness is so much more efficient. 

Congratulations and blessings to you and your unborn daughter.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> @bandit.45 Screw charm, directness is so much more efficient.
> 
> Congratulations and blessings to you and your unborn daughter.


Thank you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Congratulations


Thank you


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I hope you got a refund from the charm school.
> She is keeping the baby.


No I was raised in a barn. 

Congratulations on your daughter. Kids are always a positive.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy,

You, your daughter, your EX and her son are going to be one big happy family. Free of the business and the toxic people, and with your help, EX will become a stable supportive mother to her son and your daughter. You might not be married before the birth of your daughter but I predict you will be (to EX) before your daughter's first birthday.

EX is not out for your money. Never was. 

This was the miracle you both needed to get back together into a real and stable relationship.

Let's just hope EX does not insist on getting a tattoo of your daughter's name on her arm. :wink2:

ETA: Don't name your daughter "Ally" or "Samantha"


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Aww congrats

I hope that things work out for you, I truly do.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Congrats Andy!


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Congrats

Children are a gift


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Andy,
> 
> You, your daughter, your EX and her son are going to be one big happy family. Free of the business and the toxic people, and with your help, EX will become a stable supportive mother to her son and your daughter. You might not be married before the birth of your daughter but I predict you will be (to EX) before your daughter's first birthday.
> 
> EX is not out for your money. Never was.
> 
> This was the miracle you both needed to get back together into a real and stable relationship.
> 
> Let's just hope EX does not insist on getting a tattoo of your daughter's name on her arm. :wink2:
> 
> ETA: Don't name your daughter "Ally" or "Samantha"


I really appreciate your kind words and advice.
We had a long talk yesterday an I think we have a real chance of moving forward with our relationship.The big thing for me is if she moves out on Saturday as planned.She has paid the first months rent and a month deposit and is adamant she is moving.Her mother has calmed down though and has said she didn't mean it about the abortion.All that bothers me is my ex changing her mind like she did before.
If she moves I am going to suggest couple counselling and maybe dating again.I don't want to rush into this and in a few months time be at each other's throats again.As for her friends,once her money problems became known a lot of them disappeared and even her sisters treat her differently.If we get back together they will soon change their tune(her sisters) because they all work for me now.
My own individual therapy is going ok,my therapist has pointed out some things that should have blindingly obvious to me but I never noticed.The main thing is I have to learn to accept people's faults and not take them as a personal insult.Also compromise is another thing I need to learn.I never thought I had a big ego,in fact I thought the complete opposite but according to him I am as egotistical as anyone he has ever met.He says this is the reason I lost so many friends over the years.He also thinks I have abandonment issues.
Other than that I'm fine.lol.
I have a short trip planned to Ireland with Ally at the end of the month for a small music festival but Ally has suggested bringing my ex instead.It is too soon though and I don't want the boy to be going back to her parents house so soon after moving out.And that is providing his Grandmother would look after him anyway.

By the way I think Alison Samantha would be a great name for my daughter.
I'm joking.Im joking.Im brave but I'm not that fcukin brave.
Once again thank you for your comments.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



bandit.45 said:


> No I was raised in a barn.
> 
> Congratulations on your daughter. Kids are always a positive.


Until they become teenagers, anyways.

@Andy1001, I know @blueinbr means well, but I think marrying during the pregnancy or within the first year after birth is a bad idea. I'd like to tell you why, but I have to admit to hypocrisy first!

Ok, here's where I admit to being a hypocrite.

I married my first H because I got pregnant and felt I owed it to the kid. We weren't compatible and it was a huge mistake I don't think I will ever fully recover from. That whole mess left some mental scars. I left exH for an AP. I then became pregnant with my AP and I agreed to marry him while our son was an infant. That has worked out wonderfully.

Now, here's where I tell you why it's not a good idea to marry during the pregnancy and shortly after the birth. Hormones. Emotionally clouded thinking. These are actual things and they can cause people to make bad decisions. While she is carrying the baby she is going to be on a hormone roller coaster. After the birth, she is going to be on a sleep deprived hormone roller coaster. These months are NOT a good time for her to be making life changing decisions. You are also going to be going through a lot of emotion and a lot of changes. This is NOT a good time for you to make life changing decisions, either.

If you were already planning to marry and decided to hurry the ceremony because of the baby, that would be one thing. But you were broken up for REASONS and wouldn't be in each others lives if it weren't for the baby. So, give it some time AFTER the baby is about a year old for the two of you to be thinking entirely clearly and know what you're getting into before you even think about marriage.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

@MJJEAN Wow MJ.

I did not say what he should do. I said what I thought he WILL do. I might be the same, might not.

The difference here is that he actually loves EX (we need a better name for her - not EX and not tattoo-girl). Plus much of the trouble causing issues have been removed. I do think they would have conceived a child after the originally planned wedding. 

My thoughts are that this puts them back on course.

But I cannot argue with a pregnant hormone charged woman. 

Nothing wrong with setting a date two years out.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> @MJJEAN Wow MJ.
> 
> I did not say what I should do. I said what I thought he WILL do. I might be the same, might not.
> 
> The difference here is that he actually loves EX (we need a better name for her - not EX and not tattoo-girl). Plus much of the trouble causing issues have been removed. I do think they would have conceived a child after the originally planned wedding.
> 
> My thoughts are that this puts them back on course.
> 
> But I cannot argue with a pregnant hormone charged woman.
> 
> Nothing wrong with setting a date two years out.


Your post seemed like very good wishes for Andy. It's sweet. I just thought he should be cautioned that pregnant women and new mothers are under the influence of some pretty serious hormones and emotions. Expectant and new fathers aren't much better. They may see each other through rose colored glasses as new parents for a time. They may see each other through a far more negative lens for a time, too, depending on how rough having the baby is on them. I just think, considering what went before, they should let things settle down before getting romantically involved and thinking about marriage.

The issues don't seem to really have resolved so much as they may resolve IF she continues as she says she will.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Until they become teenagers, anyways.
> 
> @Andy1001, I know @blueinbr means well, but I think marrying during the pregnancy or within the first year after birth is a bad idea. I'd like to tell you why, but I have to admit to hypocrisy first!
> 
> Ok, here's where I admit to being a hypocrite.
> 
> I married my first H because I got pregnant and felt I owed it to the kid. We weren't compatible and it was a huge mistake I don't think I will ever fully recover from. That whole mess left some mental scars. I left exH for an AP. I then became pregnant with my AP and I agreed to marry him while our son was an infant. That has worked out wonderfully.
> 
> Now, here's where I tell you why it's not a good idea to marry during the pregnancy and shortly after the birth. Hormones. Emotionally clouded thinking. These are actual things and they can cause people to make bad decisions. While she is carrying the baby she is going to be on a hormone roller coaster. After the birth, she is going to be on a sleep deprived hormone roller coaster. These months are NOT a good time for her to be making life changing decisions. You are also going to be going through a lot of emotion and a lot of changes. This is NOT a good time for you to make life changing decisions, either.
> 
> If you were already planning to marry and decided to hurry the ceremony because of the baby, that would be one thing. But you were broken up for REASONS and wouldn't be in each others lives if it weren't for the baby. So, give it some time AFTER the baby is about a year old for the two of you to be thinking entirely clearly and know what you're getting into before you even think about marriage.


Thank you for your advice.
At this stage we are not even dating and if my ex does not move out at the weekend then I will have to accept that she can't be a full time mom.
The biggest problem I had with my ex was her friends.Since she lost her business most of them disappeared.She accepts now they were only hanging around because she spent plenty of money on them and they also got free sessions in her gym.I own the gym now and I have banned most of them and sacked three of the biggest s*** stirrers.At the start of our problems my ex was getting anonymous texts telling her I was out with other women,she actually got some while I was in the same room as her.I found out who was sending them(Her tattooed friend)and all it took was one letter from my lawyers and she moved away.So that problem is out of the way.
Her mom is another problem, all she thinks about is money.She would love for us to get back together as long as she is paid to look after my exs son and she probably thinks she will be looking after our baby as well.That is not going to happen.She tries to bully everyone into doing what she wants and I think my ex is a bit afraid of her.

I accept a lot of the things that happened were my fault.I genuinely have a phobia about tattoos but I know now that my ex really was joking about getting one but I went nuclear over it.This should not have escalated like it did.I have a habit of breaking off all contact with people if we fall out,even over something minor and I need to work on that.
As for marriage,not in the foreseeable future anyway.


----------



## calmwinds

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Thank you for your advice.
> At this stage we are not even dating and if my ex does not move out at the weekend then I will have to accept that she can't be a full time mom.
> The biggest problem I had with my ex was her friends.Since she lost her business most of them disappeared.She accepts now they were only hanging around because she spent plenty of money on them and they also got free sessions in her gym.I own the gym now and I have banned most of them and sacked three of the biggest s*** stirrers.At the start of our problems my ex was getting anonymous texts telling her I was out with other women,she actually got some while I was in the same room as her.I found out who was sending them(Her tattooed friend)and all it took was one letter from my lawyers and she moved away.So that problem is out of the way.
> Her mom is another problem, all she thinks about is money.She would love for us to get back together as long as she is paid to look after my exs son and she probably thinks she will be looking after our baby as well.That is not going to happen.She tries to bully everyone into doing what she wants and I think my ex is a bit afraid of her.
> 
> I accept a lot of the things that happened were my fault.I genuinely have a phobia about tattoos but I know now that my ex really was joking about getting one but I went nuclear over it.This should not have escalated like it did.I have a habit of breaking off all contact with people if we fall out,even over something minor and I need to work on that.
> As for marriage,not in the foreseeable future anyway.


Who else votes Andy gets a tattoo of his daughter's name and date of birth to celebrate? Just kidding, Andy. Congratulations.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Thank you for your advice.
> At this stage we are not even dating and if my ex does not move out at the weekend then I will have to accept that she can't be a full time mom.
> The biggest problem I had with my ex was her friends.Since she lost her business most of them disappeared.She accepts now they were only hanging around because she spent plenty of money on them and they also got free sessions in her gym.I own the gym now and I have banned most of them and sacked three of the biggest s*** stirrers.At the start of our problems my ex was getting anonymous texts telling her I was out with other women,she actually got some while I was in the same room as her.I found out who was sending them(Her tattooed friend)and all it took was one letter from my lawyers and she moved away.So that problem is out of the way.
> Her mom is another problem, all she thinks about is money.She would love for us to get back together as long as she is paid to look after my exs son and she probably thinks she will be looking after our baby as well.That is not going to happen.She tries to bully everyone into doing what she wants and I think my ex is a bit afraid of her.
> 
> I accept a lot of the things that happened were my fault.I genuinely have a phobia about tattoos but I know now that my ex really was joking about getting one but I went nuclear over it.This should not have escalated like it did.I have a habit of breaking off all contact with people if we fall out,even over something minor and I need to work on that.
> As for marriage,not in the foreseeable future anyway.


Her rather toxic "friends" were hanging out with her because she spent money on them. Yeah. But that doesn't explain why SHE would want to hang out with people like THEM. If she hasn't changed in fundamental ways, she will eventually make new toxic friends.

If she lets her mother "bully her", don't be too sure she won't be watching your baby as well as the older child. You may make your feelings known, she may cave to her mother. This is one of those things you need to have dealt with BEFORE your daughter is born. Make it VERY OBVIOUSLY CLEAR that her mother will NOT be watching your child.

There is nothing wrong with a mother leaving her child with a relative to watch while she is at work. Nothing wrong with leaving a child with someone to catch a few hours out with a SO or friends once a week or so. What your Baby Momma (? we don't have a name for her and she isn't fiancee anymore, so...) did was leave her son with her mother while she worked, while she went on dates and spent nights with you, and while she was out with her girlfriends. The amount of time she left her child for frivolous reasons was excessive. You'll have to make sure she doesn't fall into her previous behavior again.

Whatever you do, if you do marry her at some point, don't mingle your pre-marital assets with marital assets. If her mother is so very concerned about money...well, the apple don't fall far from the tree.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If she's not working, and has enough financially, will she be a stay at home mum for a while? This may limit the need for her mother to watch the kids anyway.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Her rather toxic "friends" were hanging out with her because she spent money on them. Yeah. But that doesn't explain why SHE would want to hang out with people like THEM. If she hasn't changed in fundamental ways, she will eventually make new toxic friends.
> 
> If she lets her mother "bully her", don't be too sure she won't be watching your baby as well as the older child. You may make your feelings known, she may cave to her mother. This is one of those things you need to have dealt with BEFORE your daughter is born. Make it VERY OBVIOUSLY CLEAR that her mother will NOT be watching your child.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a mother leaving her child with a relative to watch while she is at work. Nothing wrong with leaving a child with someone to catch a few hours out with a SO or friends once a week or so. What your Baby Momma (? we don't have a name for her and she isn't fiancee anymore, so...) did was leave her son with her mother while she worked, while she went on dates and spent nights with you, and while she was out with her girlfriends. The amount of time she left her child for frivolous reasons was excessive. You'll have to make sure she doesn't fall into her previous behavior again.
> 
> Whatever you do, if you do marry her at some point, don't mingle your pre-marital assets with marital assets. If her mother is so very concerned about money...well, the apple don't fall far from the tree.


It's the middle of the night and as usual I'm wide awake.You made a point that really hit home with me though and I have given it a lot of thought.I would still be separated from my ex(ok I will call her J from now on) if it wasn't for our baby coming along.I need to be very careful that we don't end up back where we started in a few months.
As for her mother watching the baby,I have made it clear to J that if she wants to return to work I will employ a nanny as soon as the baby is born.I do not want her mother anywhere near my child more than is necessary.
I know there is a lot to sort out but the one thing I am sure about is even when I broke up with her and had no contact for over two months,J always wanted me back.I thought it was greed but when I gave her a fairly large sum of money she returned it to me.
As for a prenup agreement,there is no wedding on the cards but I will have one for sure.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> If she's not working, and has enough financially, will she be a stay at home mum for a while? This may limit the need for her mother to watch the kids anyway.


This would be my preference but as she has always worked long hours she may want to go back as soon as she can.A previous poster suggested having a Crèche in the health centre so I may get my manager to look into that.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> If she's not working, and has enough financially, will she be a stay at home mum for a while? This may limit the need for her mother to watch the kids anyway.


Or increase it. She wouldn't be the first woman to drop the kids off at Grandma's every day or two so she can go out and do some shopping or hang with friends.
@Andy1001, just make sure you are very clear with regards to what you find unacceptable. One of things I have learned over the years is that there is what Person A said and what Person B heard. They are not necessarily the same thing. Make sure you communicate simply and unambiguously. And watch for loopholes!

"You said you didn't want my mom watching the baby while I worked, but I was out having lunch with Connie, so I thought it was ok to leave her with my mother!"

"You said you were uncomfortable with my mother having too much time with the baby, but I didn't think 5 hours for the third time this week was "too much"."

I got a few years on you and have seen relationships similar to yours from beginning to end as friend to the female partner in some and as male partners friend in others. I know this might sound loopy at the moment and you'll want to consult a lawyer, but I think it is in your best interests to get the details of custody, support, and visitation negotiated and registered with the court as soon as you can once the baby arrives. If you and J continue as friendly co-parents, great! If you decide to give it another go as a romantic couple and live as LTP's or get married, great! If things go south and you cannot get along, there would be a legal agreement in place to protect your parental rights and your right to see your child.

No offense to J or any other woman, but it's not unheard of for women who are pissed off at their baby daddies to deny visitation and/or use the baby as a way to manipulate. You do NOT want to take even a 1% risk she would do that at some time in the future for unforeseen reasons. This is your daughter. She needs you. Be very sure you have legal access to her that does NOT depend on the good will of her mother.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Or increase it. She wouldn't be the first woman to drop the kids off at Grandma's every day or two so she can go out and do some shopping or hang with friends.
> @Andy1001, just make sure you are very clear with regards to what you find unacceptable. One of things I have learned over the years is that there is what Person A said and what Person B heard. They are not necessarily the same thing. Make sure you communicate simply and unambiguously. And watch for loopholes!
> 
> "You said you didn't want my mom watching the baby while I worked, but I was out having lunch with Connie, so I thought it was ok to leave her with my mother!"
> 
> "You said you were uncomfortable with my mother having too much time with the baby, but I didn't think 5 hours for the third time this week was "too much"."
> 
> I got a few years on you and have seen relationships similar to yours from beginning to end as friend to the female partner in some and as male partners friend in others. I know this might sound loopy at the moment and you'll want to consult a lawyer, but I think it is in your best interests to get the details of custody, support, and visitation negotiated and registered with the court as soon as you can once the baby arrives. If you and J continue as friendly co-parents, great! If you decide to give it another go as a romantic couple and live as LTP's or get married, great! If things go south and you cannot get along, there would be a legal agreement in place to protect your parental rights and your right to see your child.
> 
> No offense to J or any other woman, but it's not unheard of for women who are pissed off at their baby daddies to deny visitation and/or use the baby as a way to manipulate. You do NOT want to take even a 1% risk she would do that at some time in the future for unforeseen reasons. This is your daughter. She needs you. Be very sure you have legal access to her that does NOT depend on the good will of her mother.


That is a very good idea about getting a legal agreement drawn up and I will talk with my lawyers about it.However Js mom has thrown her out today so she is moving anyway.She is staying with me until Saturday then moving into her own place.When J returned the money that I gave her I never banked it until Yesterday.This morning the bank rang her to confirm such a large withdrawal on her account and her mother overheard and went mad over it.She wanted J to build an extension on their house for her and the boy to live in,but now that the money is gone that is not going to happen.Her Mom started screaming at her to get out and take her bastard son with her.She literally ran with just the clothes she had on her and her purse.At least she took her car because I'm certain that would have disappeared.She is very upset but said she figured something was going to happen with her mother and now it has.I rang one of her sisters (she works for me)and told her to go home and start packing J and the boys clothes and get them brought over to my house.
I got my doctor to come over and check J out but everything is ok.
I don't know how much of this thread you have read but my daughter stands to inherit a considerable sum when she is born.J does not know this but by law I have to tell her when the baby is born.This is not money she has to wait until she is eighteen to get,it's hers at birth.I am the only person apart from some Scottish lawyers who know about this(my parents lived in Edinburgh amongst other places and that is where they are buried).I would dearly love to tell mommy dearest about this money because I control how the money is used.Her face would be priceless.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That is a very good idea about getting a legal agreement drawn up and I will talk with my lawyers about it.However Js mom has thrown her out today so she is moving anyway.She is staying with me until Saturday then moving into her own place.When J returned the money that I gave her I never banked it until Yesterday.This morning the bank rang her to confirm such a large withdrawal on her account and her mother overheard and went mad over it.She wanted J to build an extension on their house for her and the boy to live in,but now that the money is gone that is not going to happen.Her Mom started screaming at her to get out and take her bastard son with her.She literally ran with just the clothes she had on her and her purse.At least she took her car because I'm certain that would have disappeared.She is very upset but said she figured something was going to happen with her mother and now it has.I rang one of her sisters (she works for me)and told her to go home and start packing J and the boys clothes and get them brought over to my house.
> I got my doctor to come over and check J out but everything is ok.
> I don't know how much of this thread you have read but my daughter stands to inherit a considerable sum when she is born.J does not know this but by law I have to tell her when the baby is born.This is not money she has to wait until she is eighteen to get,it's hers at birth.I am the only person apart from some Scottish lawyers who know about this(my parents lived in Edinburgh amongst other places and that is where they are buried).I would dearly love to tell mommy dearest about this money because I control how the money is used.Her face would be priceless.


Well, hopefully she'll ditch her toxic mother, too.

I wouldn't tell anyone not required to know about the funds. If the money grubbing grannie knows the baby will have a sum of money, she will manipulate the baby as she grows up in hopes of getting her hands on the money some day. I would also make very sure to make out a will that makes provisions for the baby's inheritance in case of your untimely demise. Provisions that keep the money out of J and her family's hands until your DD reaches the age of maturity at least. I know you're young, but this is the kind of stuff you must think about now that you're going to be a daddy.

Really, have a meeting with your lawyer(s) and explain the whole situation. Get them going on planning to protect your daughters inheritance come what may. If, God forbid, anything were to ever happen to you, your DD may need that money to have a decent life. Get another set working on custody and related issues.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Well, hopefully she'll ditch her toxic mother, too.
> 
> I wouldn't tell anyone not required to know about the funds. If the money grubbing grannie knows the baby will have a sum of money, she will manipulate the baby as she grows up in hopes of getting her hands on the money some day. I would also make very sure to make out a will that makes provisions for the baby's inheritance in case of your untimely demise. Provisions that keep the money out of J and her family's hands until your DD reaches the age of maturity at least. I know you're young, but this is the kind of stuff you must think about now that you're going to be a daddy.
> 
> Really, have a meeting with your lawyer(s) and explain the whole situation. Get them going on planning to protect your daughters inheritance come what may. If, God forbid, anything were to ever happen to you, your DD may need that money to have a decent life. Get another set working on custody and related issues.


I've just got off the phone with the Scottish lawyer and I was slightly wrong in what I said in my last post.Its only if I am married to my child's mother that she has to be informed and it only applies in the UK anyway.The way that sterling has been falling I'm glad I kept the account in Dollars.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I've just got off the phone with the Scottish lawyer and I was slightly wrong in what I said in my last post.Its only if I am married to my child's mother that she has to be informed and it only applies in the UK anyway.The way that sterling has been falling I'm glad I kept the account in Dollars.


Well, someone here will have to know in case anything happens to you so that she can claim her trust when she's an adult. I'm pretty sure your law offices could set it up so that, in event of your death, the lawyers overseas are notified so they can swing into motion and contact your DD.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Well, someone here will have to know in case anything happens to you so that she can claim her trust when she's an adult. I'm pretty sure your law offices could set it up so that, in event of your death, the lawyers overseas are notified so they can swing into motion and contact your DD.


All in hand,my US lawyers will contact the Scottish lawyer and get it sorted out.
It has been an interesting day,as I said earlier Js mother threw her out and I got her sister to go home and pack her stuff.She rang me and said her mother will not let her pack anything and said J could fcuk off.I got her to put her mother on the phone and I sweetly asked her how did she feel about having three unemployed daughters living at home.She started shouting down the phone and I hung up.I rang Js other two sisters and told them if their mother damaged any of Js or her sons things they would be looking for new jobs.I knew they would ring her straight away.
I didn't like doing this but all that woman understands is money and the thought of having no wages coming in would kill her.Js father arrived about an hour ago with a pile of black garbage bags with all their clothes and said he would bring the rest of their stuff tomorrow.Js sisters have been treating her like **** since she lost the business and it felt good to cut them down to size.J treated them well when they worked for her but eaten bread is easily forgotten.I am not a vindictive man but I hate bullies and that is all Js mother is and her sisters aren't much better.
Ally of all people has pleaded with me not to sleep with J tonight but I wasn't going to anyway.This arrangement is just until Saturday when J moves to her rental.She is asleep in one of the spare bedrooms right now and Ally has brought the boy into town to go to McDonalds.He is kind of confused but Ally will cheer him up.
I was really worried this morning about J but she seems to be fine.The doctor gave her a good checkup and her and the baby are ok.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Wow.....draaaaaaaammaaaaaaaa!


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Wow.....draaaaaaaammaaaaaaaa!


But this time not of my making.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Drama indeed
I'm the end good that she is out of that toxic environment I think.

Re your money and your daughter. Make sure you have everything outlined and your lawyers lol know what is going on.
You have to protect you and your daughter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Make sure you put provisions in your will about who controls the trust for your daughter until she comes of age, just in case anything does happen early. My partner had a trust as a child, and was supposed to be for his adult life. But his mother had access as long as it was buying things for him. So she ended up buying brand new cars every couple of years so she could "drive her son around". And then sold them privately for cash, to buy another car from his trust. He was left with nothing when he reached adulthood.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Or increase it. She wouldn't be the first woman to drop the kids off at Grandma's every day or two so she can go out and do some shopping or hang with friends.
> 
> @Andy1001, just make sure you are very clear with regards to what you find unacceptable. One of things I have learned over the years is that there is what Person A said and what Person B heard. They are not necessarily the same thing. Make sure you communicate simply and unambiguously. And watch for loopholes!
> 
> "You said you didn't want my mom watching the baby while I worked, but I was out having lunch with Connie, so I thought it was ok to leave her with my mother!"
> 
> "You said you were uncomfortable with my mother having too much time with the baby, but I didn't think 5 hours for the third time this week was "too much"."
> 
> I got a few years on you and have seen relationships similar to yours from beginning to end as friend to the female partner in some and as male partners friend in others. I know this might sound loopy at the moment and you'll want to consult a lawyer, but I think it is in your best interests to get the details of custody, support, and visitation negotiated and registered with the court as soon as you can once the baby arrives. If you and J continue as friendly co-parents, great! If you decide to give it another go as a romantic couple and live as LTP's or get married, great! If things go south and you cannot get along, there would be a legal agreement in place to protect your parental rights and your right to see your child.
> 
> No offense to J or any other woman, but it's not unheard of for women who are pissed off at their baby daddies to deny visitation and/or use the baby as a way to manipulate. You do NOT want to take even a 1% risk she would do that at some time in the future for unforeseen reasons. This is your daughter. She needs you. Be very sure you have legal access to her that does NOT depend on the good will of her mother.


I have been thinking about your suggestion about getting a legal agreement with J about my access to our baby in case we don't get back together.I was thinking about approaching it like this.I will tell her there is money set aside for my daughters education(which is true) but I will tell her I am happy to use the money pay for her sons education also.This will be right through until he finishes college.This would have happened if we hadn't broke up in the first place because I had intended to adopt him when we were married.He is still a half brother to my future daughter and there is plenty to go around.
This will all be dependent on us having equal custody of my daughter.I know this seems sneaky but while her mother is out of the picture she will be more amenable to deal with.
I do not want to tell her just how much money our daughter inherits in case it throws a spanner in the works.It is a lot of money by any standards.
I have a conference call with my Scottish lawyer and my US lawyers today and I will get the details sorted out of how my daughters money is to be released to her.I may let her have half when she is eighteen and the rest when she is twenty one,or I could use some of the money for to buy a house in my daughters name but let J and her son live there until my daughter decides what to do,this will only happen if me and J stay separated.If I was married to her mother at the moment then we would have to agree on this but as we are not married I can change the trust any way I want.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Considering the human brain doesn't fully mature until age 25, I'd do 1/4 at 21 and the rest at 25.

Discuss getting a fair visitation and custody agreement separate from anything financial. When you talk to her, it's about being an equal parent to your shared child, as is right and fair for all of you. Period. Nothing more. Once that is all handled, mention that you also want to provide for your daughter's half-brother to be educated. 

Once you tie money to custody and visitation, you are entering into semi-legal waters in some states. You're also giving her the idea that you are willing to pay for access to your child. Too much potential for trouble there, my friend.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I agree with 25 for the majority age. I was pretty responsible at 21 (already a mother to my son) and man, I would have spent a lot of a lump sum of money quite quickly. Now (at 27) I would spend a windfall completely differently, and way less recklessly.


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I've set mine up in several increments. There's a sum after 22 if he has an undergraduate degree - more if he's in graduate school of some kind to cover tuition and living costs. Other payouts at 25, 30, 35, and all of the rest at 40. 

All of which will need to be covered in a prenup, should he choose to get married, or it will then go through a hierarchy of other family.

I'm a jerk.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*

Jeez Andy, you are treating all this like a business deal. 

You bought her business. Now you are buying her daughter. You solve all your problems with money, basically because you can. 

I want the best for all of you. I wish you had better advisors than lawyers and accountants. Someone who can advise you on the heart. Ally maybe?

J already showed she is not after your money. I know you think providing for the kids is the right thing, and it is, but please go about it as a loving father, not a rich benefactor.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Jeez Andy, you are treating all this like a business deal.
> 
> You bought her business. Now you are buying her daughter. You solve all your problems with money, basically because you can.
> 
> I want the best for all of you. I wish you had better advisors than lawyers and accountants. Someone who can advise you on the heart. Ally maybe?
> 
> J already showed she is not after your money. I know you think providing for the kids is the right thing, and it is, but please go about it as a loving father, not a rich benefactor.


Yeah reading back what I wrote I'd does seem like a business contract.I didn't intend it to sound like an ultimatum though.This is one of the things I need to work on,trying to buy everything.
J hasn't given me any signal that she would try and stop me seeing our baby if things don't work out.I will tell her about the education fund and even if we stay apart I will use it for both of our kids.Js son will still be our baby's brother and should share in the fund.
She is sleeping in one of the bedrooms with the boy,he is totally confused at what is happening and wondering where his grandmother is.To be fair to her it seems that he is very attached to her.During a conversation today J told me she was giving her mother five hundred a week housekeeping,that is what is upsetting her mother,losing the money.Her father brought more of her stuff to my house today,he looks like a beaten man,it can't be easy living with his wife.He admitted to me that it was my threat to fire his other daughters that convinced his wife to give in.He was kinda angry and told me if I had acted like this months ago none of this crap would be happening.
The lawyers are getting an agreement ready for my daughters money and I have to make a decision on when she gets the money.All I know is if I had this sort of money at eighteen I could have started my business earlier,but then I may have never met J or Ally so it's hard to know what to do.
Once again thank you for your advice,I appreciate it.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

*He was kinda angry and told me if I had acted like this months ago none of this crap would be happening.*

So, he blames you, not his daughter, or the toxic friend.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> *He was kinda angry and told me if I had acted like this months ago none of this crap would be happening.*
> 
> So, he blames you, not his daughter, or the toxic friend.


I think what he meant was if I had put J in her place like I did to her mother we would never have broken up.I think their plan was once we got married mommy dearest would be in charge and everyone else would toe the line.
The thing is I was foolish in my relationship and too passive but in business I take no **** whatsoever.I deal with sharks and the slightest sign of weakness is jumped on,so if mommy thought she would hold the purse strings she was very much mistaken.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Jeez Andy, you are treating all this like a business deal.
> 
> You bought her business. Now you are buying her daughter. You solve all your problems with money, basically because you can.
> 
> I want the best for all of you. I wish you had better advisors than lawyers and accountants. Someone who can advise you on the heart. Ally maybe?
> 
> J already showed she is not after your money. I know you think providing for the kids is the right thing, and it is, but please go about it as a loving father, not a rich benefactor.




Well IMO when it comes to something like this you have to separate your feelings from the business.
Fact is he has a lot of money that his daughter will inheritance he has to make sure she is protected and the plans are in place. I think he's really smart to be considering all this now.

I don't think he's buying his daughter by making sure she is provided for.
He said from the get go he will be in this baby's life and J agreed. No buying is necessary.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Stupid tablet Chrome ate my reply...re-doing it.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Yeah reading back what I wrote I'd does seem like a business contract.I didn't intend it to sound like an ultimatum though.This is one of the things I need to work on,trying to buy everything.
> J hasn't given me any signal that she would try and stop me seeing our baby if things don't work out.I will tell her about the education fund and even if we stay apart I will use it for both of our kids.Js son will still be our baby's brother and should share in the fund.
> She is sleeping in one of the bedrooms with the boy,he is totally confused at what is happening and wondering where his grandmother is.To be fair to her it seems that he is very attached to her.During a conversation today J told me she was giving her mother five hundred a week housekeeping,that is what is upsetting her mother,losing the money.Her father brought more of her stuff to my house today,he looks like a beaten man,it can't be easy living with his wife.He admitted to me that it was my threat to fire his other daughters that convinced his wife to give in.He was kinda angry and told me if I had acted like this months ago none of this crap would be happening.
> The lawyers are getting an agreement ready for my daughters money and I have to make a decision on when she gets the money.All I know is if I had this sort of money at eighteen I could have started my business earlier,but then I may have never met J or Ally so it's hard to know what to do.
> Once again thank you for your advice,I appreciate it.


Of course the boy is confused! Of course he misses his grandmother and wonders where she is, she raised him! He has been removed from the only home he has known and has been taken away from his primary caretaker. Any kid would be woogy about now. J needs to explain to him, in terms he can understand at his age, what is happening and what will be happening shortly. Try making it a big adventure. Some kids are also very helpful and feel secure and in control when assigned simple tasks like helping mommy organize or even helping wipe tables and make a meal.

You said again that you don't think J would impede access to your shared child. That's great, but you cannot take that kind of gamble. Unless you know, for absolute certainty, then get it in writing through the courts.

Let me bore you with a story.

My exH and I may have not gotten along, but I never thought he would ever try to take the kids from me. Until he did. We were living about 10 miles apart, he or his mother came to pick up the girls every Friday afternoon around 3-5 and brought them back every Sunday around 6-8. About 6 months is, he decided he wasn't bringing them back.

In my state, parents who are married share absolutely equal custody unless there are court orders stating otherwise. We did not have those orders. According to the police, he was perfectly within his rights to keep the children with him and to even take them across state lines. I, of course, had the same rights. Unless he was willing to give the girls, then 6 and 1 years old, back to me there was nothing anyone could do unless/until I got a court order. I called attorneys and was told the process would take 3-6 months for a first hearing. I was also told that the longer the girls lived with him, the weaker my case became.

Thankfully, exH couldn't hack it and brought them back after 4 days. 

As a man unmarried to your child's mother, depending on state law, you may have no rights at all outside of court orders. I know in my state, when a child is born out of wedlock, the mother has automatic full custody and the father has to go through the courts to have his rights recognized and enforced.

You may not understand yet, but the love you will feel for your daughter will be well beyond what you have ever imagined feeling for any human being. Whoever controls her, controls you and your assets through her. You NEED a custody and visitation agreement as soon as possible. Don't get soft on this because you "think"...




Malaise said:


> *He was kinda angry and told me if I had acted like this months ago none of this crap would be happening.*
> 
> So, he blames you, not his daughter, or the toxic friend.


Maybe he should be blaming himself for marrying that harpy.

Also, regarding the inheritance, your daughter is not you. She will be an entirely different person with her own strengths and weaknesses. YOU at 18 may have started a business earlier. SHE at 18 may decide to donate it all to charity and go live in a commune somewhere in Africa and then heavily regret it years later. SHE at 18 may decide to invest it all in a handsome con man's legit sounding scheme and end up broke with a broken heart. SHE at 18 might decide to blow it all on party trips around the world with her "friends".

Your job is to protect her from EVERYONE, including herself.


----------



## Blacksmith01

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am engaged to be married next October,my fiancée is 32 and has a seven year old son from a previous relationship.When we started being exclusive I made a point of saying tattoos were a deal breaker and she laughed and said her fear of needles would rule them out anyway.
> So of course you know what's coming.She informed in front of a lot of her friends on Sunday that she is getting a tattoo on her side to support one of her friends who has had a bereavement.I told her we needed to discuss this alone but her friends all butted in and said it's her body and she can do what she wants.I ended up going home on my own(she lives with her parents but stays in my house overnight when we go out).I met her on Monday and she was furious because I showed her up in front of her friends.
> I asked her what about our agreement and she said she was supporting her friend.I got really angry and told her if her friends meant more to her than me then there was no point going on.I swear this is the first time I ever lost my temper with her but she is adamant this tattoo is happening,and for me not to be so stupid.I really hate tattoos and there is no way we are getting married if she goes through with it.Am I being unreasonable about this.


There are other fish in the sea my friend. Cut this one off your line and throw your hook back in the water.


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> *He was kinda angry and told me if I had acted like this months ago none of this crap would be happening.*
> 
> So, he blames you, not his daughter, or the toxic friend.


See, as a father myself, I read this as "I like new Andy. This guy would have made sure this was never a problem."


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



dubsey said:


> See, as a father myself, I read this as "I like new Andy. This guy would have made sure this was never a problem."


I see that now. 

I lack that insight.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Still awake,someday this not needing much sleep will come back and bite me in the ass.
I had a long chat with Js father yesterday evening,he dropped over some of the boys stuff while J was collecting the boy from school.She and Ally brought him shopping for posters and things for his bedroom and to keep his mind off things.Her father looks ten years older than he did three months ago,living with a wife and four grown up daughters can't be easy.He told me that Js mother is completely ruled by the love of money and always has been,he said she loved the thought that J was marrying a rich guy and her world came tumbling down when we split up.He said she was just starting to accept the breakup when the Internet article about my business appeared and when she seen the sum involved she almost had a breakdown.She was another person who thought I was a trust fund brat and she thought when J and me got married J would spend my money on her and her family,apparently she was able to find out that there was no list of shareholders and then realised I owned it all.(I own Ninety nine percent,Ally owns one percent)It was at this time she asked me to invest in Js business and when I refused she just asked me for money,supposedly for J and her son which I refused.
He said that at that stage J hadn't told anyone that her business was in trouble and when she finally admitted it her mother went crazy.She considered mortgaging their house but their own financial advisor told them they could end up homeless.It was at this time that the younger sister asked me about investing and when I refused Ally jumped in.If I had not made Ally get an independent financial report on the business she could have lost half a million dollars because the business had a six hundred grand mortgage that hadn't been paid in months.Ally was supposed to get a percentage of the business depending on what she invested and she was considering asking for fifty percent for half a million investment.J thought if she just bought new more modern exercise machines that business would pick up and she would be ok but she was clutching at straws and would have lost everything.I do a lot of business with the local bank and I asked the manager to let me know if the bank were going to foreclose and he said she had one more month and then action would be taken.The problem then would be nobody would renew their annual membership in case the gym closed.

Ally pulled out at this stage and I had never wanted to be involved anyway so I thought that was that.
Unfortunately my inner white knight showed up and I bought the business to stop it going bust and I gave J a lot of money over the value to tide her and the boy over.
She returned all of this money before she told me she was pregnant and this is what finally drove her mother over the edge.Apparently mommy had this plan to build an apartment to one side of the house for J and the boy but once J returned the money to me that plan couldn't go ahead.
I do feel sorry for the guy and somehow I think I was supposed to fill his role in the future,a cash machine for his wife.He has an engineering business but I don't know how it's doing.His house is big but not very well maintained so that's another thing I would be paying for I'd say.
He wants to stay in contact with J and his grandson but it has to be kept from his wife.I told him J was moving in to her new home tomorrow (sat) and he could talk to her about seeing the boy.
The move is definitely on for later today so that will alleviate some of my concerns of whether J can be a proper Mom to her son and eventually our daughter.
I know I am inclined to write kind of unemotionally but I was watching J yesterday when she was looking out the window and she is absolutely beautiful.Ive heard of women "glowing" while pregnant but I never really believed it until now.She has no noticeable bump at this stage and she told me when she had her son she only gained fourteen pounds weight over the pregnancy.
Watching her and Ally together is really great because I realise now she completely accepts that there is nothing and never has been anything other than friendship between us and now they seem to be bonding with each other.
I have to move her stuff later so I will try and get some sleep but probably won't.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

J moved into her rental yesterday as planned,she was a bit nervous last night about being alone with the boy but she was ok when I left.None of her family turned up to help her move which was disappointing but not unexpected.Her mother is still pissed about everything and none of Js sisters or her father will do anything to make her mad.The boy sees this as a big adventure,we put up posters in his room and I bought him a tv and an Xbox so he can play when he wants.He had a PlayStation at home but it hasn't turned up yet,probably his grandmother being a ***** again.
I have to make a decision about my daughters inheritance soon and also I think I need to make a will.As it stands my brother is my next of kin so he would get to control everything if anything happened to me and I don't trust him.Some previous posters have suggested dealing out her money gradually over a few years and that seems like the way to go.There may also be tax implications so that would need to be sorted out as well.
On a different topic can anyone recommend the safest car for a pregnant woman.J currently drives a coupe but I want something safer.A tank comes to mind lol.


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## Tron

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Subaru Outback


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## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Subie is a good choice. If you prefer something euro - Audi A4 would be good too if you live somewhere it snows - AWD and all.


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## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Yukon SUV, it's a tank.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chatabox

*Fiancées tattoo.*

Have you talked to J about how she expects you to help financially? If she's trying to stand on her own feet, a new car may seem insulting to her. (Like she can't do it herself) especially as she gave you the rest of your money back. It seems like she's trying to prove she can do this herself. So she may not want you to buy her a new car right now. Maybe talk to her first before charging in and getting her a "safer" car.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Have you talked to J about how she expects you to help financially? If she's trying to stand on her own feet, a new car may seem insulting to her. (Like she can't do it herself) especially as she gave you the rest of your money back. It seems like she's trying to prove she can do this herself. So she may not want you to buy her a new car right now. Maybe talk to her first before charging in and getting her a "safer" car.


She asked me yesterday to check out cars for her.We were moving her stuff and realised that her car was completely unsuitable for her now.She wants to pay for it herself but if I find something that she thinks is too expensive I will contribute towards it.She has her pride but this is my daughter we are talking about.
As for everything else she has enough money for a few years and when our daughter is born I have decided to buy a house in my daughters name and J and the children can live there.If we get back together then all that will change of course.
J cooked dinner tonight and it is the first time in five years she has ever cooked for me.It wasn't great to be honest but I ate it and said it was delicious.I am learning you see.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Stop trying to be her KISA. Find her a good car if she asks but don't pay for it.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Stop trying to be her KISA. Find her a good car if she asks but don't pay for it.


My main concern here is in the safety of my baby and J.I want the safest car or suv on the road and I have the money to buy it so I will and I make no apologies for that.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My main concern here is in the safety of my baby and J.I want the safest car or suv on the road and I have the money to buy it so I will and I make no apologies for that.


Where would J be without her savior?

Seriously, brother. Stop being a KISA.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My main concern here is in the safety of my baby and J.I want the safest car or suv on the road and I have the money to buy it so I will and I make no apologies for that.


LOL. No one is telling you how to feel about the safety of your unborn child, this is a red herring. As is your comment "I have the money so, I will buy it." This is your justification and defense to how you were labeled. You were told not to buy her a new car. You do realize, helping her to pick one out and buying one are two TOTALLY different things right? You could help her with a down payment, just help her pick up the car, negotiate a better deal and a myriad of other things which do not involve "I have the money so, I will buy it." This is why two previous people called you a KISA. Your explanation adds me as a third.


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My main concern here is in the safety of my baby and J.I want the safest car or suv on the road and I have the money to buy it so I will and I make no apologies for that.


Dude, I get that, but we ALL grew up riding in the back of hatchbacks & wagons with too many kids and without seatbelts. I mean, I get it, but have some perspective.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Ok I'm not getting this.Why is it such a big deal that I would want to protect my unborn child?


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Ok I'm not getting this.Why is it such a big deal that I would want to protect my unborn child?


To you, it's about protecting your unborn child, but to us, it's about you doing everything for her without being asked. That's KISA persona. She has the money to buy herself a car. She's not financially destitute.


----------



## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She asked me yesterday to check out cars for her.We were moving her stuff and realised that her car was completely unsuitable for her now.She wants to pay for it herself but if I find something that she thinks is too expensive I will contribute towards it.She has her pride but this is my daughter we are talking about.
> 
> As for everything else she has enough money for a few years and when our daughter is born I have decided to buy a house in my daughters name and J and the children can live there.If we get back together then all that will change of course.
> 
> J cooked dinner tonight and it is the first time in five years she has ever cooked for me.It wasn't great to be honest but I ate it and said it was delicious.I am learning you see.




You better act like you enjoyed her cooking or you will end up doing it. My wife put a frozen pizza in the oven in the box when we first got married and I'm convinced it was a ploy to get me to cook. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She asked me yesterday to check out cars for her.
> 
> She wants to pay for it herself.
> 
> She has her pride but this is my daughter we are talking about.




Read these comments again. She wants your *help*, not your money. Protecting your daughter is great. Give J recommendations within her budget. But let HER pick her budget. There are lots of cars out there that are safe, but not ridiculously expensive.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> J cooked dinner tonight and it is the first time in five years she has ever cooked for me.It wasn't great to be honest but I ate it and said it was delicious.I am learning you see.



What was it you learned? To lie to her? 

It probably was not up to your five star restaurant expectations but it was probably as good as what most of us eat. 

It may help to adjust your expectations 

I am not criticizing you, just offering a different POV. 

She must have been immensely proud of herself to cook for you. 

She really does love you. 

You have a keeper.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> What was it you learned? To lie to her?
> 
> It probably was not up to your five star restaurant expectations but it was probably as good as what most of us eat.
> 
> It may help to adjust your expectations
> 
> I am not criticizing you, just offering a different POV.
> 
> She must have been immensely proud of herself to cook for you.
> 
> She really does love you.
> 
> You have a keeper.


I cook for myself most of the time,otherwise I have takeout food.I have eaten in fancy overpriced restaurants but I am always hungry when leaving.I do take your point though.
She was proud of herself for cooking dinner and I wouldn't criticise her for the world.She has been through a lot in the past few days.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> LOL. No one is telling you how to feel about the safety of your unborn child, this is a red herring. As is your comment "I have the money so, I will buy it." This is your justification and defense to how you were labeled. You were told not to buy her a new car. You do realize, helping her to pick one out and buying one are two TOTALLY different things right? You could help her with a down payment, just help her pick up the car, negotiate a better deal and a myriad of other things which do not involve "I have the money so, I will buy it." This is why two previous people called you a KISA. Your explanation adds me as a third.


I should listen to you, you were the one who predicted we would get back together when we were at war.
I was checking on line about cars and it looks like an suv is the way to go.If she trades in her own car she will only need to add about ten grand to get a fairly good one.She can afford that herself.


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Ok, I'm sure some of the pushback on "wanting my child to be safe" is that you'll find out early in your child's life, they're not this fragile little thing you imagine. For the first few years, they're essentially made of rubber - and for good reason, they fall over nothing, walk/run into chairs and cabinet doors, and door knobs, fall down the stairs when you blink for a half second, and pull on a dog's ears (or worse) and get knocked over - then they cry. And you'll come to understand the difference between the "I'm really hurt" cry, and the "I want attention because the dog knocked me over" cry.

That's all. It's why when you see a parent on their 3rd kid or more, that kid could run with scissors and the parents are like "eh, you'll learn" - I'm exaggerating, of course, but you can tell when it's the 3+ kid they have.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



dubsey said:


> Ok, I'm sure some of the pushback on "wanting my child to be safe" is that you'll find out early in your child's life, they're not this fragile little thing you imagine. For the first few years, they're essentially made of rubber - and for good reason, they fall over nothing, walk/run into chairs and cabinet doors, and door knobs, fall down the stairs when you blink for a half second, and pull on a dog's ears (or worse) and get knocked over - then they cry. And you'll come to understand the difference between the "I'm really hurt" cry, and the "I want attention because the dog knocked me over" cry.
> 
> That's all. It's why when you see a parent on their 3rd kid or more, that kid could run with scissors and the parents are like "eh, you'll learn" - I'm exaggerating, of course, but you can tell when it's the 3+ kid they have.


I should point out at this stage I know absolutely nothing about babies.I have never held a baby much less fed one or omg changed a diaper..Thats the thing about living with gay women,babies are not too common.I have a lot too learn.J and Ally have been winding me up about it and they think it's hilarious.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I should point out at this stage I know absolutely nothing about babies.I have never held a baby much less fed one or omg changed a diaper..Thats the thing about living with gay women,babies are not too common.I have a lot too learn.J and Ally have been winding me up about it and they think it's hilarious.




lol you will learn. No doubt about that.
Babies have a way of making you feel like you are thrown into the deep end of the pool without a life vest..but you will be fine. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tron

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I should point out at this stage I know absolutely nothing about babies.I have never held a baby much less fed one or omg changed a diaper..Thats the thing about living with gay women,babies are not too common.I have a lot too learn.J and Ally have been winding me up about it and they think it's hilarious.


And you are listening to them...

WTH would they know about raising babies. They're jerking your chain bro.

Get yourself the "What to Expect when..." books, read them and then you will know infinitely more than them about it...and feel confident in telling them to stuff it.


----------



## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I should point out at this stage I know absolutely nothing about babies.I have never held a baby much less fed one or omg changed a diaper..Thats the thing about living with gay women,babies are not too common.I have a lot too learn.J and Ally have been winding me up about it and they think it's hilarious.




It's actually pretty easy to change diapers if you can get accustomed to the smell. But your own babies poop don't stink. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Tron said:


> And you are listening to them...
> 
> WTH would they know about raising babies. They're jerking your chain bro.
> 
> Get yourself the "What to Expect when..." books, read them and then you will know infinitely more than them about it...and feel confident in telling them to stuff it.


I know they are jerking my chain and revenge will be swift and merciless lol.By the way J has a son so she has been in this situation before.Ally is in her element to see me worrying and J is as cool as a cucumber.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



giddiot said:


> It's actually pretty easy to change diapers if you can get accustomed to the smell. But your own babies poop don't stink.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I told J that as long as the baby doesn't poop more than once a week I would probably be ok.


----------



## Tron

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I told J that as long as the baby doesn't poop more than once a week I would probably be ok.


Hah! 

LOL!

Yeah, you better read those books.:wink2:


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I told J that as long as the baby doesn't poop more than once a week I would probably be ok.




Try 8-12 diaper changes per day. That is why they sell them by the case.


----------



## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Try 8-12 diaper changes per day. That is why they sell them by the case.




Yeah but most aren't poopy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



giddiot said:


> Yeah but most aren't poopy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




At least a couple a day. Especially if they're breastfed.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

This was supposed to be my wedding day.
Instead I'm in Ireland at a music festival with my Lesbian friend.
Not quite the honeymoon I had planned.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Good music?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Good music?


We went to a gig last night by a guy called Paul Brady.He is a singer/songwriter from Northern Ireland.His music has been covered by Tina Turner,Bonnie Riatt,Eric Clapton,Santana to name just a few.I have some of his cds but had never seen him live.We went to a bar afterwards to another band and the bar must have been at least a hundred and fifty years old.Its a town called Sligo in the west of Ireland.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> This was supposed to be my wedding day.
> 
> Instead I'm in Ireland at a music festival with my Lesbian friend.
> 
> Not quite the honeymoon I had planned.




I know you didn't want this path but comparing what was and what is IMO you have a brighter future with J. Most of the toxicity has been shed. 

J seems to have grow and matured. That was needed. 

Tbh, you seem better going through this. I think you now know what you really want and need. You learned from this. 

Your real honeymoon will be a blast.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> I know you didn't want this path but comparing what was and what is IMO you have a brighter future with J. Most of the toxicity has been shed.
> 
> J seems to have grow and matured. That was needed.
> 
> Tbh, you seem better going through this. I think you now know what you really want and need. You learned from this.
> 
> Your real honeymoon will be a blast.


Yeah we are getting along ok.I felt we were moving too fast after the weekend that J moved into her rental so I kinda pulled back a little bit.I had to go to Germany last week for two days and I'm in Ireland since Thursday so it gives us a chance to see do we miss each other.
J and Ally are getting on great together and J went back to the gym with Ally last week for a workout,her sisters barely said hello but her old staff made a fuss of her.She has discussed with the manager about setting up some training classes for pregnant women and they are advertising them for next week so that will keep her busy.She has been having terrible morning sickness though so I'm not sure if that will affect her schedule.
Her father only came around to see her and the boy once since they moved out,I'd say Js mother is watching him and her daughters carefully so they don't break rank.
She has been cooking for me on a few occasions,I would like to say she is improving but it would be a lie.Its lucky I like my meat well done lol.
Ally is playing Cupid as I knew she would and wants me to let J wear her engagement ring again,I think she wants to be a bridesmaid (or maybe best man) but I'm not planning on getting married for a long time if ever.Im still paying some of the bills for the original wedding,I had forgotten to cancel some things,cars,organist etc.


----------



## just got it 55

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> I like the humble introspection, Andy. You can learn much about yourself with that attitude.


Without question that's the best therapy 

55


----------



## just got it 55

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think what he meant was if I had put J in her place like I did to her mother we would never have broken up.I think their plan was once we got married mommy dearest would be in charge and everyone else would toe the line.
> The thing is I was foolish in my relationship and too passive but in business I take no **** whatsoever.I deal with sharks and the slightest sign of weakness is jumped on,so if mommy thought she would hold the purse strings she was very much mistaken.


Honestly Andy Really ?

Her Father is the real bad guy in all this and I will tell you why

Nobody but nobody throws my daughter out on the street pregnant.... no fvcking less

He is not a beaten man He is a coward

How coud he allow his wife to treat your (plural) [ daughter ] like this ?

His words and advice are worth sh!t.

Tell us more about this guy

55


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



just got it 55 said:


> Honestly Andy Really ?
> 
> Her Father is the real bad guy in all this and I will tell you why
> 
> Nobody but nobody throws my daughter out on the street pregnant.... no fvcking less
> 
> He is not a beaten man He is a coward
> 
> How coud he allow his wife to treat your (plural) [ daughter ] like this ?
> 
> His words and advice are worth sh!t.
> 
> Tell us more about this guy
> 
> 55


QFT.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



just got it 55 said:


> Honestly Andy Really ?
> 
> Her Father is the real bad guy in all this and I will tell you why
> 
> Nobody but nobody throws my daughter out on the street pregnant.... no fvcking less
> 
> He is not a beaten man He is a coward
> 
> How coud he allow his wife to treat your (plural) [ daughter ] like this ?
> 
> His words and advice are worth sh!t.
> 
> Tell us more about this guy
> 
> 55


That had occurred to me but as he was the only one of Js family still talking to her I didn't say anything to him.He has only called over to see J once since she left home though.This situation suits me but it is not fair on J or her son who really loves his grandmother and doesn't understand why she won't let him come and visit.A lot of the boys toys have disappeared too and I think that btich has dumped them out of spite.
Js father was the guy who told me to let J get the tattoo and he would pay for it to be removed after the wedding.
He runs an engineering firm that makes gates,railings etc and also does welding on building jobs.I don't know how well it does but their house is in pretty bad condition and needs painting,new windows and air conditioning.When I started going over there he tried to act the big business man but when he asked me where I lived he realised I was far wealthier than him and it took the wind out of him.At that stage I was only seeing J about once a week,we started off very slowly and he and his wife probably thought it was nothing serious.I had just moved into the area and bought my house,I had the original house demolished and rebuilt another one so I was renting an apartment near Js business.His firm supplied some items and did some work on my house and he would have realised that I had a lot of money so when he told his wife she probably decided that I would be a great asset to her family.
My parents had just died and Ally and Sam had moved away so I was feeling pretty low myself.I hadn't been going out much so when I met J I had no real interest in dating anyone,but it was so funny how we met that I asked her out and she said yes.I was out walking early one morning and J was opening the gym and she seen me walking by and thought I was a famous footballer from Europe,to be honest I am the spitting image of this guy and she decided to ask me to perform the opening ceremony for her gym.She was so embarrassed when she realised her mistake and started apologising but I thought she was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen so I immediately acted.We had a drink together and she told me she had a two year old son but the child's father was not on the scene.We started going out once a week because her mom would only babysit that often but I think that when Js father seen my house he told his wife and all of a sudden she was telling J she would babysit every night if J wanted her to.I know now it was Js mom who was playing me and not J.
Her father is really under the thumb and will not do anything to annoy his wife.I thought her sisters would have stood by her but they are afraid of their mom as well.The fact that the three girls work for me must be killing her and I all ready threatened to fire them if she didn't give J her belongings when she threw her out.If they keep up this crap of ignoring J then I swear I will make J assistant manager of the gym just to piss them off.The manager has asked me how I want to handle this and I told him if any staff are rude to any customer I would expect him to handle it.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, your last post connects the dots a lot more clearly in J's situation with her son and her mother.

J's family is toxic.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> Andy, your last post connects the dots a lot more clearly in J's situation with her son and her mother.
> 
> J's family is toxic.


Up until we broke up most of the local people thought that I was living off a trust fund and I never made them any wiser.My business is mostly monitoring at this stage and as most of my clients are overseas I would be working odd hours.I am blessed (or cursed)with the ability to survive on very little sleep,maybe two hours on a good night so I would always have plenty of time to call on J during the day so people thought I didn't work.
J knew that I had a business but she didn't really understand what I did so she also figured I was living off inherited money and my business was just part of a larger company.When the European manufacturing company that uses my software was charged with tax irregularities my name was mentioned and the sum of money they were paying me each year was published in some financial journals.This was when Js mother started prying and found out that I owned the entire business except for one percent and she couldn't bear the thought of not having her daughter marry into so much wealth.I hadn't realised that so many people knew about this report until just recently when J told me.Her mother is money mad and actually told me straight out that I should make sure that J and the boy were financially secure.At this stage I didn't know that Js business was in trouble so I refused to even contact her.I also didn't know she was pregnant with my baby and if I had known things may have worked out differently.
I don't even want the gym and only bought it to stop J from going bust.The funny thing is that the gym is really making money since I updated the equipment and the new manager has brought so much extra business in that we are talking about opening 24/7.He is very well known in athletics circles and represented the US in the olympics.There is no vacancies on any of his classes and a waiting list for membership of the gym.He wanted to move back here with his family and I offered him a flat salary and some hours for personal classes or one on one training so he seems to be happy.
When I bought the business I offered J the managers job but she didn't want it.Her father rang me and asked me to give the job to one of his daughters but I declined.
I am really in a quandary about what to do about Js family.I could just throw some money at her mother and she would be happy but it suits me not to have her around and see how well J and I get on as a couple.We are getting along great at the moment and I have been over with her when I am at home.Im in Ireland until Monday so I will see her Monday night.I have started bringing her on dates when I can get Ally to watch the boy and we have been having a good time.We have slept together and it was so weird as I never thought we would get back together.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I don't think it is reasonable to expect them to ever go a way. They may be mad, but they are still J's family. They will be (to a greater or lesser degree) a part of your life as long as J is.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

On a different note I'm about to go to a gig by a band called the saw doctors whose biggest hit was a song called I used to love her.Pretty apt I think.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Would you be dating her now if she wasn't pregnant with your child, or would you still be taking some time for yourself? 

Don't rush into anything. Having a baby plays havoc on your emotions and hormones. The reason you two seperate was real and valid. Don't discount it because your about to be a dad. Take it slow and make sure you sort everything out.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Would you be dating her now if she wasn't pregnant with your child, or would you still be taking some time for yourself?
> 
> Don't rush into anything. Having a baby plays havoc on your emotions and hormones. The reason you two seperate was real and valid. Don't discount it because your about to be a dad. Take it slow and make sure you sort everything out.


This is what keeps playing on my mind.And the answer is I probably wouldn't be seeing J if she wasn't pregnant.I was very unhappy while we were apart though and this baby has made me happier than I have been in months.
We discussed the babies inheritance from my parents and J was delighted when I said I would pay for her sons education out of it and I am getting an agreement drawn up about this and also my rights as the father.I know this sounds sneaky but I want to be in my babies life whether me and J get back together or not.
I hope this post goes through because I'm in a plane over the Atlantic at the moment.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> I don't think it is reasonable to expect them to ever go a way. They may be mad, but they are still J's family. They will be (to a greater or lesser degree) a part of your life as long as J is.


The way Js mother operates is this.While J is renting a house and not working then she has no control over J and she has no interest in their relationship as mother/daughter/grandson.This is only because there is no money coming her way under these circumstances.However if J starts working while the boy is not in school then someone will have to look after him and they will have to be paid.This is what Mommy is waiting for and she thinks that J will have no choice but to ask her to look after the boy.She will probably offer an olive branch soon and J will accept it because this conflict is upsetting her and the boy.Around here childminders are very expensive and have to have police checks and all sorts of insurance in place.I could offer to pay for it but as he is not my son I don't want to interfere.
If J and her mother make up then J will tell her about the babies inheritance and she will never leave us alone.I have told J repeatedly not to mention this but I know what she is like,she will not be able to resist telling her mother.I have moved the babies money from Scotland because Britain are leaving the European Union and who knows what will happen to the banks.Because the money is now in the US I had to tell the babies next of kin which is J.I still have control over it and I swear Js mom is not going to get her hands on it.I can legally withhold the money until the baby is twenty one and probably longer if I have to.I have already started buying a house and I will let J and the children live there when the baby is born.If we get back together then I can rent it or sell it again.
The most important thing is that the baby is ok and I want nothing stressful to happen to J that could affect her.I am probably been overprotective here but this is the biggest thing that has ever happened to me and I am very nervous.I honestly think that if J tells her mom about the money she will put pressure on J to try and get the money sooner through legal action and that will be the end of our relationship.This is money that was left to me that I refused to accept and I put it into a trust for my children.I will pay for everything my child needs but not what her grandmother wants.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The way Js mother operates is this.While J is renting a house and not working then she has no control over J and she has no interest in their relationship as mother/daughter/grandson.This is only because there is no money coming her way under these circumstances.However if J starts working while the boy is not in school then someone will have to look after him and they will have to be paid.This is what Mommy is waiting for and she thinks that J will have no choice but to ask her to look after the boy.She will probably offer an olive branch soon and J will accept it because this conflict is upsetting her and the boy.Around here childminders are very expensive and have to have police checks and all sorts of insurance in place.I could offer to pay for it but as he is not my son I don't want to interfere.
> If J and her mother make up then J will tell her about the babies inheritance and she will never leave us alone.I have told J repeatedly not to mention this but I know what she is like,she will not be able to resist telling her mother.I have moved the babies money from Scotland because Britain are leaving the European Union and who knows what will happen to the banks.Because the money is now in the US I had to tell the babies next of kin which is J.I still have control over it and I swear Js mom is not going to get her hands on it.I can legally withhold the money until the baby is twenty one and probably longer if I have to.I have already started buying a house and I will let J and the children live there when the baby is born.If we get back together then I can rent it or sell it again.
> The most important thing is that the baby is ok and I want nothing stressful to happen to J that could affect her.I am probably been overprotective here but this is the biggest thing that has ever happened to me and I am very nervous.I honestly think that if J tells her mom about the money she will put pressure on J to try and get the money sooner through legal action and that will be the end of our relationship.This is money that was left to me that I refused to accept and I put it into a trust for my children.I will pay for everything my child needs but not what her grandmother wants.




Organise legal guardianship ASAP. I don't know how it works in the states, but make sure you have some kind of legal document entitling you to both physical access and also legal custody. If Js agreeable, it should be 50/50. Whether you use it or not is not relevant. You need it there just in case anything goes bad in 5 or 15 years. Especially as there is money and a greedy grandmother involved in your child's life.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I have realised something very important in the last few days about my relationship with J.When I am away from her I can think very clearly and logically about everything but when I am around her I think I can be very foolish.I have been away for a few days and it gave me some time to put things into perspective.I was going a bit over the top with the car situation and to be fair she only asked me for advice,she never asked me to buy her a car.A previous poster called me a kisa and he was right.Another poster told me I think with the wrong head when she is around me and he may have been correct too.
While I was in Ireland a girl in the hotel bar hit on me but I said I was with my girlfriend and she left.Ally came downstairs then and we left to go to a gig.We came back to the hotel afterwards and had a few drinks and this girl came over again,she was a little drunk but said she wanted to talk to both of us because she seen how much fun we were having and she said she was having problems with her boyfriend and wanted some advice.I thought to myself if she needs relationship advice from me then she is really in trouble.It turned out her boyfriend was upstairs in bed and wouldn't come down to her even though she paid for their trip and for tickets to the gigs.She was a good looking girl and I felt sorry for her to be stuck with that prick.Thats when I realised that I often behaved like that with J in the early days,going off to see Ally,going to gigs all over the world,last minute trips to Europe for formula one races, and at that stage J though I was having a fwb relationship withAlly..Yet we got on fine then,it was when I got really passive and laid back and was always around that we started having problems.
Maybe we are just not suited to be together permanently or perhaps I should just stop overthinking things.
By the way Ally made the girl go up and pack her stuff and gave her her own room and Ally stayed in mine.(in my bed but fully clothed)Her boyfriend was down at breakfast looking for her when the three of us came down the following morning and I was going to tell Ally to let the two of us eat together to annoy him but he started apologising to his girlfriend and she seemed to want to get back with him so I ate with Ally.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You certainly love drama.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> You certainly love drama.


Why do you think that.It was just a way to give her ego a lift and make her bf think she wasn't hanging around waiting on him.If the two of us had sat together then that would have been a bit mean,I realise that now.
It might have got interesting if she and Ally had sat together and I let it slip that Ally was gay.lol.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Why do you think that.It was just a way to give her ego a lift and make her bf think she wasn't hanging around waiting on him.If the two of us had sat together then that would have been a bit mean,I realise that now.
> It might have got interesting if she and Ally had sat together and I let it slip that Ally was gay.lol.




You wanted to fuel a fight between them? Because ultimately, that's what would have happened. Would he ever trust her again if they worked it out? Because he would assume that she ran into the arms of another man the minute it got hard. And you encouraged it. I think Aly was right in staying with you.

You think clearly from your perspective, but not very well from another persons perspective


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> You wanted to fuel a fight between them? Because ultimately, that's what would have happened. Would he ever trust her again if they worked it out? Because he would assume that she ran into the arms of another man the minute it got hard. And you encouraged it. I think Aly was right in staying with you.
> 
> You think clearly from your perspective, but not very well from another persons perspective


You had me feeling guilty for a while.
Ally is still in Ireland and she texted me just now to say that Aoife (the girl in the bar)had rang her to say she had dumped her boyfriend on Monday night.He was some ******* though letting her pay for a trip to a music festival and then refusing to leave the hotel room.She found out he was messaging some ex girlfriend all the time while she was in the bar alone.
I should keep my nose out of other people's business though.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You had me feeling guilty for a while.
> 
> Ally is still in Ireland and she texted me just now to say that Aoife (the girl in the bar)had rang her to say she had dumped her boyfriend on Monday night.He was some ******* though letting her pay for a trip to a music festival and then refusing to leave the hotel room.She found out he was messaging some ex girlfriend all the time while she was in the bar alone.
> 
> I should keep my nose out of other people's business though.




That's the point I was trying to make.  You get into other people's drama quite easily. 

But seriously though, the next time a situation comes up, try and think of it from the other persons perspective. You got there I. The end with J and the car. Sometimes people do literally just want what they ask of you. 

Does J know your buying a house for your daughter?


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You had me feeling guilty for a while.
> 
> Ally is still in Ireland and she texted me just now to say that Aoife (the girl in the bar)had rang her to say she had dumped her boyfriend on Monday night.He was some ******* though letting her pay for a trip to a music festival and then refusing to leave the hotel room.She found out he was messaging some ex girlfriend all the time while she was in the bar alone.
> 
> I should keep my nose out of other people's business though.




Well, she was hitting on you BEFORE she knew he was texting the ex. She is no angel. They both need to post on TAM.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Well, she was hitting on you BEFORE she knew he was texting the ex. She is no angel. They both need to post on TAM.


To be fair I am irresistible to women so don't blame her.
I'm joking.Im joking.
When we came back to the hotel Ally and me had really been knocking back the alcohol and she was trying to yank my chain about the baby and J and telling me to propose immediately or J would fcuk off with her and they would raise the baby.This really was just Ally being Ally and the amount of shots we had drank was huge.I told her if she wore a bag over her head I would think about screwing her and she could have her own baby and this busting each other's balls went on for a while.I know this sounds extreme but it's just the way we act when we get together and we've been doing this for years.Some of the stories we could tell about each other would make Hugh Hefner blush.
We were laughing all this time and that's when Aoife came over.She thought we were a couple because I had used that as an excuse when she had hit on me earlier and couldn't understand that we were having such a laugh and her boyfriend wouldn't even come downstairs to be with her,she was fairly drunk too though.That was when Ally told her we were just friends and that I had a pregnant girlfriend back in the US.She didn't really believe this because Ally is absolutely gorgeous and when she gets a few drinks she is really funny.Ally went up with her to collect her stuff and the boyfriend never spoke to either of them the whole time.Ally told me she wanted to kick him in the balls he was so rude and she would be well able to do it too.Ally gave Aoife her room and she stayed in mine.
When I woke up the following morning with Ally in the bed with me for one awful moment I thought it was Aoife and that we had had sex,I was still groggy as I had only been an hour in bed but then I realised it was Ally beside me and she had her clothes on.I was so relieved that I hadn't cheated because I have never cheated on J and as this will probably be me and Ally's last trip together it would have been awful to ruin it.
Ally would have probably kicked me in the balls if she thought I was trying it on with Aoife.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> That's the point I was trying to make.  You get into other people's drama quite easily.
> 
> But seriously though, the next time a situation comes up, try and think of it from the other persons perspective. You got there I. The end with J and the car. Sometimes people do literally just want what they ask of you.
> 
> Does J know your buying a house for your daughter?


I'm not actually paying for the house myself,I'm using some of my daughters money to buy it and it will be in her name when she is born.This is just in case J and me don't get back together and J won't have to move back with her parents.I also intend to hire a nanny for the baby if she wants to go back to work purely to keep Js mom out of the picture as far as child care is concerned.The legalities will be tied up so tight that J can never profit from the house or from the babies money.Im not suggesting for a minute that she would ever try but nobody knows what will happen in the future.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Well, she was hitting on you BEFORE she knew he was texting the ex. She is no angel. They both need to post on TAM.


I just realised I didn't answer your question about the house.Where I live the houses very rarely come up for sale,it is a gated community with permanent security so it is very safe.There is one house about to be sold and I will buy it.I told J I am buying it for the baby as an investment and it will be hers when she is twenty one.I told her it can be rented easily or she can move in when the baby is born,by then her lease will be up.This was discussed before my trip.
We had a talk last night about how she thought we were getting on together and she said she missed me terribly while I was in Ireland.I have to admit I missed her as well and I told her that was why I didn't stay on with Ally for the rest of the week.(We were supposed to stay until Friday when Ally booked the trip)
There has still been no contact from her parents or sisters.
Edit.Wrong question been quoted.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Its Js sons birthday today and we had planned to go out for the day with him.J has just rang and said her mother had texted her to bring the boy over because she had bought him a present and this "nonsense"had gone on long enough.She asked J how much longer she was going to punish her by keeping her grandson away.This is the woman that told J to get out and take her bastard son with her.
J was on her way to my house at the time so when she got here I told her we are sticking to our plans and text her mother to call over to my house later.She is not too happy about this,I think she is afraid of her mother.I told her her mother has had weeks to apologise but now on the kids birthday she wants to ruin everything.She doesn't do anything without an ulterior motive so I need to think about this.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

All this gay drama is kinda fascinating.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*

The boy can see his grandma AND you on his BD. 

Please try to make that happen.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Good lord dude, you keep playing the game. Get your head straight before you even try to be a parent. This entire dynamic, you included, is awful. Of course you missed her, you've done ABSOLUTELY nothing to detach and neither has she. Either marry her or don't, but you two aren't acting any better than her parents. You just are playing the same game in reverse.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Good lord dude, you keep playing the game. Get your head straight before you even try to be a parent. This entire dynamic, you included, is awful. Of course you missed her, you've done ABSOLUTELY nothing to detach and neither has she. Either marry her or don't, but you two aren't acting any better than her parents. You just are playing the same game in reverse.


What do you mean playing the game?
I had no contact with J for weeks and it was the worst time of my life.We got back in contact because she is pregnant.I have no experience in relationships and that's why I started posting on tam.You want advice on ons then I'm your man otherwise I'm fcukin lost.


----------



## Palodyne

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> What do you mean playing the game?
> I had no contact with J for weeks and it was the worst time of my life.We got back in contact because she is pregnant.I have no experience in relationships and that's why I started posting on tam.You want advice on ons then I'm your man otherwise I'm fcukin lost.


OK, young man. You have no experience with relationships, me neither. My fiancé dumped me for another man, she ran off and married him. Good for her. I vowed I would never get involved with women again, and so far I haven't. So why am I posting to you?

My sister and her husband had a son that they wanted me to raise for them, because they couldn't cope with him. I was resistant at first, but I took him, at a few months old, and started raising him as my own. They, a few years later, had another son that I also took in to raise. Today these two boys are 13 and 7. And even though my sister cheated on and left their biological father, they still look to me as their dad. The seven year old still calls me dad.

My point to you is this. Whether or not you stay with your fiancé, the kid is yours. You don't need to stay with her to be important to your child. You just need to be a part of the child's life! Make your presence and love known.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Palodyne said:


> OK, young man. You have no experience with relationships, me neither. My fiancé dumped me for another man, she ran off and married him. Good for her. I vowed I would never get involved with women again, and so far I haven't. So why am I posting to you?
> 
> My sister and her husband had a son that they wanted me to raise for them, because they couldn't cope with him. I was resistant at first, but I took him, at a few months old, and started raising him as my own. They, a few years later, had another son that I also took in to raise. Today these two boys are 13 and 7. And even though my sister cheated on and left their biological father, they still look to me as their dad. The seven year old still calls me dad.
> 
> My point to you is this. Whether or not you stay with your fiancé, the kid is yours. You don't need to stay with her to be important to your child. You just need to be a part of the child's life! Make your presence and love known.


Thank you for taking the time to comment and for the advice.What you are doing for your nephews is very kind and I'm sure they and your sister appreciate it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I've just had a long day with lawyers,J has signed a fifty fifty custody agreement and that was the main thing I wanted to accomplish.The baby gets twenty percent of her inheritance on her eighteenth birthday,thirty percent on her twenty first and the rest at twenty five.Hopefully I'm still around to see this.Js son has his education paid for up until he is twenty five so that pleased J as well.I am buying the house I talked about and it will be in my daughters name but she can't sell until she is twenty five without my permission.If J tries to contest this at any stage then all the money reverts to me and her son gets nothing.I asked her did she want her own lawyer to check this out but she said no.I had to rush this through after what happened on Sunday.

As I said we had arranged to go out on Sunday with the boy but Js mother wanted to come over to see him because it was his birthday.I made J text her mother that we were going out but to come over to her rental at six.We went to an indoor/outdoor water park but it started raining heavily and the indoor attractions were packed.The boy asked could we go back to my house so he could swim so that's what we did.J texted her mother to tell her to come to my house instead of hers and that was her first reason to start *****ing because she said how could we be at the pool in the rain.Now Js sisters have been over at my house a few times but only at the outside pool or the garden and her father did some work on the railings and gates etc but none of them had ever seen the full house.Building control in my area only lets you build two stories up so when I built my house I went two stories down as well and I have an indoor pool.When I showed Js mother the inside of my house I thought she was going to get sick with jealousy.She was silent for a while and then said it was a disgrace that one man had so much space when millions of people were homeless.She then said to J that she was lucky that we were broken up as otherwise she(J) would spend all her life keeping the house clean.I had been polite to her up until then so I just said sweetly that my housekeeping staff looked after the house and I had never even swept the floor myself.I thought she was going to throw me in the pool at this stage.She had a couple of plastic bags with her and she gave them to the boy,it was some of his toys that she hadn't gave back when she threw J out,not even a birthday card for him.
She told J she wanted to talk privately to her so I brought her father upstairs for a beer.He hadn't even drank half of it when Js mom appeared and said they were leaving.She never looked at me and they left.
I went downstairs again and J was in tears,she said her mother asked her for money for repairs to their house but she had refused.She said the house had subsidence problems and needed a new roof and windows.She asked J for a hundred grand but J said she needed her money for herself.Her mother asked her was I not going to support her and J said it was none of her business.Her mother called her a selfish ***** that would see her family homeless while she had hundreds of thousands in the bank.J tried explaining that she was paying two grand a month rent and needed her own money but her mother stormed out.
I asked J was the house that bad and she confirmed it was and she doesn't think it is insured either.Apparently her fathers earnings don't match her mothers spending.If it was anyone other than that btich I would at least help them out but no way is she getting a cent of me.I asked J did she want to give her mother any money at all but she said it would never end and there would always be another expense and she would come looking for a handout regularly.She reckons she has given her mother thousands of dollars over the years as well as five hundred a week for her and the boy living there.Now I know where the profit from the gym was going.
At that stage Ally arrived and she was in tears too.She had met Js parents at the security gate and Js mother shouted at her was she the "queer"who lived with me,there were other neighbors and the security guy there and they all heard this..I was fcukin furious at this stage and I rang her and told her she was a homophobic money grabbing ***** and if she ever came near my house again I would have her arrested.She was screaming down the phone that she would get a lawyer and make sure when J had the baby I would pay for it but never get to see it.She couldn't even call the baby her,she called her it.Ally and J were both crying at this stage but the boy was playing in one of the rooms and hadn't heard anything.
I told J that I wanted to get the custody sorted out just in case anything happened and her mother tried to get custody and she agreed so I rang the lawyers on Monday morning and set the wheels in motion.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Wow. What a weekend. It's good that you have custody ect sorted. Now what about a will for J? If she ever passed away, does the custody of the child fall to you in full? It sounds like her mother just wants the money. But it also sounds like it was a dramatic day, on a day that should have been happy for her son. Drama is attracted to you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Wow. What a weekend. It's good that you have custody ect sorted. Now what about a will for J? If she ever passed away, does the custody of the child fall to you in full? It sounds like her mother just wants the money. But it also sounds like it was a dramatic day, on a day that should have been happy for her son. Drama is attracted to you.


J is getting a will written this week and I will have full custody if anything unforeseen happens.You are not kidding about the drama,I seem to attract it all right.When the two people you love the most in the world have been reduced to tears by some btich with delusions of grandeur it is time to act though.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> J is getting a will written this week and I will have full custody if anything unforeseen happens.You are not kidding about the drama,I seem to attract it all right.When the two people you love the most in the world have been reduced to tears by some btich with delusions of grandeur it is time to act though.




Hopefully when you get all the legal stuff sorted out etc you guys can try to relax and get away from the drama.
Her mother sounds like a gold digger...you are right for putting all this protection in place.
How has J been feeling? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> Hopefully when you get all the legal stuff sorted out etc you guys can try to relax and get away from the drama.
> Her mother sounds like a gold digger...you are right for putting all this protection in place.
> How has J been feeling?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


J is doing ok and the baby is fine.It's all this crap from her mother that is getting to her.We are getting on great at the moment but I have been staying in my own house at night,it's not fair on the boy if he wakes up to find me there and then it doesn't work out.I'm starting to think it will work out but I'm not rushing into anything.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well I've just spent the day with J and the boy and she told me she wants to invite her family for thanksgiving.It was supposed to be at my house but no way is her mother coming to my house again.So the new plan is to have it at her rental.Now I am really falling for J again but to be honest she can't cook.I would have got someone to prepare the food and deliver it or just ate out somewhere but she insists she is going to cook a turkey on Thursday.She has invited Ally and two weeks ago Js mother called Ally a fcukin queer.Js mother is still looking for money for house repairs and as she is as tactful as Donald Trump she is bound to bring it up during dinner.Ally told me she will help J cook.Ally could burn a salad.
I can't fcukin wait.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*

You have two lovely women dying to cook for you. I would eat dirt if they served it to me with love. 

The qu*** part is a legitimate complaint. 

You won't be the first guy that hated his MIL and had to suck it up for Thanksgiving.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I may have been unclear in my post.Its not the food that I will be eating that's the problem.I joke about Js cooking ability but never to her face,only on tam.It will just give her mother another reason to ***** and believe me she can ***** at Olympic level.She has been texting J since last week asking for money and I know J will give in.I don't want her upset,she is almost five months pregnant and she will probably cave and give her mother some money at least.Also Ally is not going to roll over if Mommy starts with the anti gay comments and she will give as good as she gets.I genuinely cannot understand homophobia and why it is that people can't let other people live their lives as they see fit.My attitude has always been as long as nobody is getting hurt or abused then live the life you want.
I may have a part solution though.Im going to suggest to J to move into my house before Christmas and let her parents move into her rental for the remaining three months of the lease.They can get whatever urgent works that are needed on the house completed without anyone living there so it should get done a lot quicker.It will also be easier on J not being on her own for the remaining three months of the pregnancy and I will be happier to be able to look after her.
I never really celebrated thanksgiving,neither of my parents were born in the US so it wasn't such a big deal to us.My brother and his family celebrate big time though and my sister in law invited me over to London to stay with them.She doesn't know I was in the UK three weeks ago and would be upset that I didn't visit.She also doesn't know that J and me are back together and I have no intention of telling her or my brother,he acted like a real ******* when we split up and all my old problems with him resurfaced.He knows I hold him responsible for my fathers death and he has never even tried to talk it over with me.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> You have two lovely women dying to cook for you. I would eat dirt if they served it to me with love.
> 
> The qu*** part is a legitimate complaint.
> 
> You won't be the first guy that hated his MIL and had to suck it up for Thanksgiving.


You are right of course,my previous post was supposed to respond to you but it wouldn't quote for some reason.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

There will be much more of this to come...that family seems drawn to drama.
My advice is eat the cooking...who knows she might get better with practice. Although coming from a really bad cook that isn't the case lol.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> There will be much more of this to come...that family seems drawn to drama.
> My advice is eat the cooking...who knows she might get better with practice. Although coming from a really bad cook that isn't the case lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Your other solution applies here too

Fireball with cream soda.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> There will be much more of this to come...that family seems drawn to drama.
> My advice is eat the cooking...who knows she might get better with practice. Although coming from a really bad cook that isn't the case lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm not sure which of them is the worst cook lol.Ally brought a Chinese takeout back to my house a few weeks ago.I was working in my office when the fire alarm went off.She had decided to put it in the oven to keep warm for me but she had left the food in the cardboard boxes.If I hadn't been there the fire service would have been called automatically.
J made me a toasted cheese sandwich on Sunday but forgot to take the plastic of the slices of cheese.
This is only a small example of the cooking prowess of the women in my life.I know I should be grateful that anyone wants to cook for me but I have my sanity to consider.
These two masterchefs are cooking thanksgiving dinner for eight adults and one child on Thursday.
May God have mercy on us.


----------



## Chris Taylor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I may have been unclear in my post.Its not the food that I will be eating that's the problem.I joke about Js cooking ability but never to her face,only on tam.It will just give her mother another reason to ***** and believe me she can ***** at Olympic level.She has been texting J since last week asking for money and I know J will give in.I don't want her upset,she is almost five months pregnant and she will probably cave and give her mother some money at least.Also Ally is not going to roll over if Mommy starts with the anti gay comments and she will give as good as she gets.I genuinely cannot understand homophobia and why it is that people can't let other people live their lives as they see fit.My attitude has always been as long as nobody is getting hurt or abused then live the life you want.
> I may have a part solution though.Im going to suggest to J to move into my house before Christmas and let her parents move into her rental for the remaining three months of the lease.They can get whatever urgent works that are needed on the house completed without anyone living there so it should get done a lot quicker.It will also be easier on J not being on her own for the remaining three months of the pregnancy and I will be happier to be able to look after her.
> I never really celebrated thanksgiving,neither of my parents were born in the US so it wasn't such a big deal to us.My brother and his family celebrate big time though and my sister in law invited me over to London to stay with them.She doesn't know I was in the UK three weeks ago and would be upset that I didn't visit.She also doesn't know that J and me are back together and I have no intention of telling her or my brother,he acted like a real ******* when we split up and all my old problems with him resurfaced.He knows I hold him responsible for my fathers death and he has never even tried to talk it over with me.


But...

what if you and J end up splitting up and J's parents refuse to leave the rental? And how are they going to get repairs done when they don't have any money?

One of two things will happen... either they will move in and claim they can't move out since their place can't be repaired or they will force you to foot the repair bill to get J back in the rental and them out.

Also, are you delirious having Thanksgiving with the in-laws? They have insulted you, Ally, J and J's son. Why have any more contact than necessary???


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Chris Taylor said:


> But...
> 
> what if you and J end up splitting up and J's parents refuse to leave the rental? And how are they going to get repairs done when they don't have any money?
> 
> One of two things will happen... either they will move in and claim they can't move out since their place can't be repaired or they will force you to foot the repair bill to get J back in the rental and them out.
> 
> Also, are you delirious having Thanksgiving with the in-laws? They have insulted you, Ally, J and J's son. Why have any more contact than necessary???


Thanks for the comments.By January I will have bought a house for my daughter and if things don't work out with me and J then she can move in there with the children.If her parents don't leave the rental then the property management company will begin proceedings to evict them.It wasn't my idea to invite them for thanksgiving and I refused to have them at my house.
As far as money is concerned they must have some put away or else they can arrange a loan like everybody else.Six months ago I would have just paid for the work myself and forgot about it but now I'm not giving them a cent.If I get really pissed I will offer to buy their house and let them move somewhere smaller.
I just thought of something just as I was typing.Js sisters all work for me,maybe I offer them a loan and take it from their wages.
Anyway, between J and Ally we will all probably be poisoned anyway.Ally would kick my ass if she read this lol.


----------



## Chris Taylor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Just remember that if the management company has to evict them, the costs go on the renter... J, not her parents.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> You other solution applies here to
> 
> Fireball with cream soda.




Touché blue.
You are so right 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I'm not sure which of them is the worst cook lol.Ally brought a Chinese takeout back to my house a few weeks ago.I was working in my office when the fire alarm went off.She had decided to put it in the oven to keep warm for me but she had left the food in the cardboard boxes.If I hadn't been there the fire service would have been called automatically.
> J made me a toasted cheese sandwich on Sunday but forgot to take the plastic of the slices of cheese.
> This is only a small example of the cooking prowess of the women in my life.I know I should be grateful that anyone wants to cook for me but I have my sanity to consider.
> These two masterchefs are cooking thanksgiving dinner for eight adults and one child on Thursday.
> May God have mercy on us.




Lol.
I have to say ...coming from someone who burns water...I know how easy it is to make either of those mistakes. Lol

At least they are memories in the making.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Chris Taylor said:


> Just remember that if the management company has to evict them, the costs go on the renter... J, not her parents.


Renters insurance my friend.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> Touché blue.
> You are so right
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry I don't get this.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Sorry I don't get this.




I posted in another thread that fireball and cream soda was yummy and blue thought it would be a good way of dealing with your thanksgiving in law situation lol. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> I posted in another thread that fireball and cream soda was yummy and blue thought it would be a good way of dealing with your thanksgiving in law situation lol.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well seeing as there is antifreeze in it maybe it will thaw Js mother out because she is one cold woman.
I never tease J about her cooking but Ally is fair game.I woke her this morning to ask her how many Ls were there in salmonella.She asked me why I needed to know.I said if you're cooking a turkey then I want to be prepared for everything.She started swearing at me,to be fair this was four thirty am.Let me be clear on this,neither of them (or me)have ever cooked a turkey.My recipe for ground beef cooked in a can of beef soup is about as adventurous as I get in the kitchen.Ally would live on fruit or salad.This dinner is going to be a disaster but if I arrange for food to be prepared and brought over to Js she would be furious and probably get upset.I don't care what the food turns out like but it's just more ammunition for her mother and sisters.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

It's now after four o'clock and dinner was supposed to be at two.None of Js family have showed up.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It's now after four o'clock and dinner was supposed to be at two.None of Js family have showed up.




So go ahead and eat. 

Let us know how much you enjoyed the food. 

You are very lucky. So are they.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Yep. Don't wait for them. If they can't show on time, they can eat cold food.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

If she doesn't have a close relationship with her sisters, and agrees to what you have said, then all is ok. 

We only go by what's been said, and generally most people have a different and closer relationship with siblings then they do with parents. 

The main point is to keep talking to each other. Make decisions as a partnership. Get her input, and listen to it. Don't go off and shut down her family without her consent.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> If she doesn't have a close relationship with her sisters, and agrees to what you have said, then all is ok.
> 
> We only go by what's been said, and generally most people have a different and closer relationship with siblings then they do with parents.
> 
> The main point is to keep talking to each other. Make decisions as a partnership. Get her input, and listen to it. Don't go off and shut down her family without her consent.


Well it's after two thirty and I'm still awake after a long day,J is in my bed asleep.We had probably the longest talk we ever had last night about her family,my family and what to do next.It seems her mother is besotted with giving the impression that she is wealthy and spends money like it's going out of fashion.All their lives she drove home the idea that money is everything,none of the girls were allowed bring any boy home until she checked them out first to make sure they were "suitable"e.g. rich.She seen me as the answer to her prayers.J said last night that her family embarrassing her on thanksgiving was the last straw and she will have no interaction with them for a while.
This suits me fine but I don't want her to lose contact with her family permanently.
I told J the story of my parents death last night for the first time,I've only ever told Ally,Sam and two counsellors and the last counsellor told me I should talk about it with people I could trust, but the timing was never right.J started crying when I told her and she said it explains a lot about my problems with my brother.I may post the story but it is a long one.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well it's after two thirty and I'm still awake after a long day,J is in my bed asleep.We had probably the longest talk we ever had last night about her family,my family and what to do next.It seems her mother is besotted with giving the impression that she is wealthy and spends money like it's going out of fashion.All their lives she drove home the idea that money is everything,none of the girls were allowed bring any boy home until she checked them out first to make sure they were "suitable"e.g. rich.She seen me as the answer to her prayers.J said last night that her family embarrassing her on thanksgiving was the last straw and she will have no interaction with them for a while.
> This suits me fine but I don't want her to lose contact with her family permanently.
> I told J the story of my parents death last night for the first time,I've only ever told Ally,Sam and two counsellors and the last counsellor told me I should talk about it with people I could trust, but the timing was never right.J started crying when I told her and she said it explains a lot about my problems with my brother.I may post the story but it is a long one.


I have finally caught up and just before I did you just started work on my main advice, which is TALK to J, and LISTEN. 

Realise though, you have only just started. My guess is you have over 100 hours more talking and listening before you might be ready to marry. My thought is you should marry her, she is a keeper, the mother of your daughter and a good match for you, but both of you have a lot of learning to do first. Even if you don't marry, you still need to learn to be a good co-parent, you can teach each other this. So TALK and LISTEN.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

She is a keeper.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well Js father came over yesterday.I called J and asked her to come over as well,I didn't want her thinking I was going behind her back.She arrived first and I asked her what she wanted to do.She said she wanted her family to leave us alone and stop contacting her.I asked her about firing her sisters and she said she didn't mind either way.
> She really took it badly that none of them turned up for thanksgiving dinner or contacted her.I figured she didn't really want them fired it was just frustration,I wasn't going to fire them anyway.
> Her father was surprised to see her but they had a brief hug and then we sat down.He started by saying that he was here to apologise for any "misunderstanding"about his wife and daughters attitude to Alison and if necessary they would apologise personally to me and her.J asked him what part of calling Ally a "****ing queer" and a "freeloading pervert"had we misunderstood.She then said as co owner of the gym Ally was within her rights to fire the girls and take legal action if necessary.She reminded him that her mother insulted Ally in front of witnesses and also by text and that is an offence.He visibly paled at this and told J to calm down.Now I am no expert when it comes to relationships but I know enough not to tell any woman who is angry to calm down,especially when she is five months pregnant.J just exploded on him and brought up numerous times when he had just sat back and let her mother insult her and his family and other people and then apologise for her.I hadn't said anything at this stage but when he got pissed and told J to have some respect for her father I said to him if he was her father why didn't he act like a man when his wife threw her and a seven year old child out on the street.I told him I have a daughter on the way and no way would I treat her like that no matter what she did.He shouted at me it's all right for you in your fcukin mansion but he had to live with his wife.J asked him what the size of my house had to do with anything but he didn't answer.I think he meant there would be somewhere to hide.
> J asked him what did he think was going to happen if her sisters lost their jobs,he tried to bluff and say they would get work in other gyms.She had the figures to hand and showed him what they earned compared to the other girls at the gym.She also told him that they would have a long commute,work shifts and take at least a thirty percent pay cut.All his bravado left at this stage and to be honest I felt a little sorry for him.I asked around town and most people think he is an ok guy,just under the thumb.
> I asked him what did he think should happen going forward and he said if the girls apologise then that should be the end of the matter.I asked him about his wife constantly berating J and asking for money.He said he would talk to her, but he didn't seem very confident.
> I then said to him that what he thought should happen didn't matter.I told him that I didn't want an apology from his wife or daughters and neither did Ally.I also said that they could come to work as normal on Monday.All of this was on the condition that neither him,his wife or his daughters contacted J again until she contacted them first.He was very relieved at this and he asked J did she agree.She said yes and if she wanted to resume contact with them she would let them know.I told him this was not open to negotiation,if he didn't agree then to say so.He immediately said he agreed and thanked me for being so decent about it.He said he thought I was going to make his daughters beg for their jobs.I asked him to give me one example of me belittling or abusing anyone but he said he couldn't.I told him to go home and explain to his wife how things were going to be from now on and he left.
> I really hope that is the end of it and J and me can get on with our lives.


I thought there was going to be yet another drama when J's father came around.

See how much better things go when you talk with J first. 

I think this is the first time on the thread that you and J acted like a couple. The result was a bad situation successfully handled, with far less drama than if you acted alone.


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> All I ever wanted from what I got serious with J was to get married and settle down.I lived a pretty wild life by anyone's standards but I had left that behind me and I was always faithful to J.My business had taken off far more than I ever dreamt and everything seemed to be going great.But other people kept interfering,her so called friends were either hitting on me or else stirring **** between us.They tried to convince her I was cheating,told her I was out of her league financially and looks wise.She started believing this and began to subconsciously push me away.The talk about the tattoo was just the last straw and I lost my cool and called everything off.
> I realised that I had been too laid back but I loved J and thought everything was going great when in reality she was very worried that I was cheating on her with Ally.I still can't believe that I never told her Ally was gay but obviously I didn't.I used to go on trips with Ally all over the world,mainly to Bruce Springsteen gigs and J thought we were sleeping together,but we weren't .I know this sounds ridiculous but it's true.We actually went to Australia once.Because Ally had a share in my company she was making a lot of money but she never told her partner and everyone assumed I was paying for everything.
> But now J and me are stronger than we have ever been,her toxic friends are off the scene and so is her mother.All I want is to live _my life_ *our lives* without interference and I think we may be able to do so now.


 @Andy1001 With much respect, I made a change in your post and bolded it. I knew you were on to great things with J.

~MS


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> She is a keeper.


And I'm keeping her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> I have finally caught up and just before I did you just started work on my main advice, which is TALK to J, and LISTEN.
> 
> Realise though, you have only just started. My guess is you have over 100 hours more talking and listening before you might be ready to marry. My thought is you should marry her, she is a keeper, the mother of your daughter and a good match for you, but both of you have a lot of learning to do first. Even if you don't marry, you still need to learn to be a good co-parent, you can teach each other this. So TALK and LISTEN.


We talk all the time now.I have my business running on autopilot and we go out walking and to lunch every day.There was really only two topics that I refused to discuss with J(or anyone except Ally).
One was what happened with my family and we had that discussion at the weekend.
The other topic is the amount of previous sexual partners.We will never have that discussion.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> And I'm keeping her.


So we agree, she is a keeper. 

If you want to keep her then you need to attract her, NOT buy her. My guess is the key to attracting her is talking and listening.

If you try to buy J you may push her to value you for your money, and she ends up like her mother. So your money can be a problem here.

For me, perversely, her mother is part of the reason J is a keeper. J was raised by a money hungry mother, but J does not seem to be after your money. My reading of this thread is she is not driven by money like her mother. She built a business and overpaid family, my guess is her mother would have underpaid family and overpaid herself. J returned money to you even knowing her mother's reaction. She was pleased you put money for the kids education, but I think that is her thinking for her children and her being happy you are providing for both kids, no problem with that. Her mother in the same position would be trying to get at the money. So J is not her mother. And it is difficult to not become our parents. The fact that she is not her mother is a big plus for her. 

The other sisters however I worry about. They seem beaten down by their mother. Sad as that is, they are not your problem, you think about J and the kids.

The second way to attract J is be close to the kids. Her (one) deal breaker was about how you treat her son, not directly about herself. Again it speaks well of her. She cannot avoid doing whatever is best for her kids.

The TV for the son might score a point or two with J, but it seems like trying to buy him, so may loose more points. And it is given now and taking it back would be bad. In future ask J about any gift for her son. Your time and relationship with him will score far more points with J. Take him on your walks with Hooch.

And with your daughter, ... you have free time in the day, pregnant mums need lots of checkups, you are worried about J driving an unsafe car (I think you over-react, but that is beside the point). So you happily drive her to all appointments and never grumble about the traffic or how boring the waiting room is. This is your daughter, so you should be helping anyway, but you do it happily.


----------



## Satya

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, if you want to be married, just go get a marriage license and in three days go to the town hall. If you really want to, you can throw a party later for the people who matter to you. But if you just want to be married, nothing should be stopping you.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We talk all the time now.I have my business running on autopilot and we go out walking and to lunch every day.There was really only two topics that I refused to discuss with J(or anyone except Ally).
> One was what happened with my family and we had that discussion at the weekend.
> The other topic is the amount of previous sexual partners.We will never have that discussion.


Great, you have the talking part.

The next part I can't put gently in text, so I will just blunder on. I am not trying to be smart. My original suggestion was talking and listening. You perhaps still need to work at listening.

Part of listening is to shut up and give the other person space to speak.

Part of listening is to compromise and accept ideas you may not agree with.

From what I have read here you may need work in both areas.



And I doubt you will never have the discussion about numbers of previous partners. But, to me, talking and listening doesn't mean full disclosure, you can be vague.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> She is a keeper.


Am not trying to be argumentative, but why is she a keeper?


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We talk all the time now.I have my business running on autopilot and we go out walking and to lunch every day.There was really only two topics that I refused to discuss with J(or anyone except Ally).
> One was what happened with my family and we had that discussion at the weekend.
> *The other topic is the amount of previous sexual partners.We will never have that discussion.*


Potential problem to head off. If you two get married, she may resent you later down the road and feel like she has missed out on dating other people. LucasJackson's wife comes to mind. She resented him and during her mid-life crisis, she had one long term affair and two one night stands.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Potential problem to head off. If you two get married, she may resent you later down the road and feel like she has missed out on dating other people. LucasJackson's wife comes to mind. She resented him and during her mid-life crisis, she had one long term affair and two one night stands.


J has had a few previous partners,she admits to three so make of that what you will.If I posted here on tam about the amount of previous partners I have had nobody would believe me.I played hard and fast for years,I had my own apartment when I was sixteen and I made full use of it.
This is an example of the siht me and Ally used to get up tne evening we were getting ready to go out and it was the first of march.She betted me that I couldn't bring home a different girl every night for the month.March madness she called it.The bet was she would do all the housework up until I failed then I would have to do it for thirty one days.
I did it.And the next year.And the year after that.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> So we agree, she is a keeper.
> 
> If you want to keep her then you need to attract her, NOT buy her. My guess is the key to attracting her is talking and listening.
> 
> If you try to buy J you may push her to value you for your money, and she ends up like her mother. So your money can be a problem here.
> 
> For me, perversely, her mother is part of the reason J is a keeper. J was raised by a money hungry mother, but J does not seem to be after your money. My reading of this thread is she is not driven by money like her mother. She built a business and overpaid family, my guess is her mother would have underpaid family and overpaid herself. J returned money to you even knowing her mother's reaction. She was pleased you put money for the kids education, but I think that is her thinking for her children and her being happy you are providing for both kids, no problem with that. Her mother in the same position would be trying to get at the money. So J is not her mother. And it is difficult to not become our parents. The fact that she is not her mother is a big plus for her.
> 
> The other sisters however I worry about. They seem beaten down by their mother. Sad as that is, they are not your problem, you think about J and the kids.
> 
> The second way to attract J is be close to the kids. Her (one) deal breaker was about how you treat her son, not directly about herself. Again it speaks well of her. She cannot avoid doing whatever is best for her kids.
> 
> The TV for the son might score a point or two with J, but it seems like trying to buy him, so may loose more points. And it is given now and taking it back would be bad. In future ask J about any gift for her son. Your time and relationship with him will score far more points with J. Take him on your walks with Hooch.
> 
> And with your daughter, ... you have free time in the day, pregnant mums need lots of checkups, you are worried about J driving an unsafe car (I think you over-react, but that is beside the point). So you happily drive her to all appointments and never grumble about the traffic or how boring the waiting room is. This is your daughter, so you should be helping anyway, but you do it happily.


Thank you for taking the time to read my thread and for your comments.It took me a long time before I realised that I was being played by Js mother and not by J.It was when she returned the four hundred grand that I realised she was not just after my money.
I agree with you about her sisters,I actually like her youngest sister and wish I could get her out of that environment.
I bought the tv for the boy because his grandmother had returned his games but not his system or his tv so he couldn't play them.
I bring J everywhere,prenatal classes,doctors appointments,I even brought her shopping.(once)


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to read my thread and for your comments.It took me a long time before I realised that I was being played by Js mother and not by J.It was when she returned the four hundred grand that I realised she was not just after my money.


How people handle money shows their personality and their heart. These are vital things to know before a possible marriage.
How much money people have only shows you how rich they are.



Andy1001 said:


> I agree with you about her sisters,I actually like her youngest sister and wish I could get her out of that environment.


You still have some ability to influence and help her sisters, through work, through J and through Ally. All these will have to wait a little and will have to be slow and gentle. Any drama from you will probably send them running straight back to mum.



Andy1001 said:


> I bought the tv for the boy because his grandmother had returned his games but not his system or his tv so he couldn't play them.


Yes, and that is all good. My worry is how did J see it. She might have felt obligated to you about the TV. She returned the money rather than feel obligated to you. The answer is to talk to her about why you are doing it, that it is for her son, to help him settle, there is no obligation. Maybe you did have this conversation, but often you seem to act rashly. 



Andy1001 said:


> I bring J everywhere,prenatal classes,doctors appointments,I even brought her shopping.(once)


Good, keep it up. And further to this, the baby room probably needs furniture, so more shopping and setting up for you. 

You have (helped) put a roof over her head for now, you will put a new house over her head soon, she is having your child, she is estranged from her family, she sleeps in your bed sometimes, you talk and have lunch daily, you love her, she loves you, ... a marriage seems assured to me. What you should be working on is a successful marriage. That still needs more talking and listening.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, update us when the wedding happens. Good luck.


See, I told you this long ago. Stop playing all of these drama filled games and do what you want. I saw it in your words way back in August.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I seen something very sad today,it really affected me and I don't know why.I called over to see Sam and to thank her friend who had given me the advice about DNA testing etc.She was working on the maternity ward at the hospital and Sam brought me up to say hello.I had bought her a little gift as a thank you.There was a few new born babies and there were husbands and boyfriends both visiting and collecting their partners and babies to bring them home.One girl was leaving just at the same time I was,she was carrying her baby in a sort of baby chair..Im not sure what it is called.The thing is she was leaving on her own,there was no husband or boyfriend or even grandparents to collect her.I felt so sad watching her walk out of the hospital on her own.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

And the wedding date gets closer again.

I am trying not to recommend you just marry J straight away. There were major red flags at the start of the thread. I don't know if they are all addressed yet. Far better to handle them before a marriage and before a baby is added to the mix. But it sounds like you are getting clucky.

Perhaps I should define "clucky". The dictionary says it is Australian slang, applying it only to females, such as a hen sitting on her eggs, or a woman fussing over a baby. In the countryside were I grew up we also used it of the rooster protecting and fussing over the hens, or say someone worrying about J's car and if it is safe enough.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> And the wedding date gets closer again.
> 
> I am trying not to recommend you just marry J straight away. There were major red flags at the start of the thread. I don't know if they are all addressed yet. Far better to handle them before a marriage and before a baby is added to the mix. But it sounds like you are getting clucky.
> 
> Perhaps I should define "clucky". The dictionary says it is Australian slang, applying it only to females, such as a hen sitting on her eggs, or a woman fussing over a baby. In the countryside were I grew up we also used it of the rooster protecting and fussing over the hens, or say someone worrying about J's car and if it is safe enough.


I would have liked to have talked to her,maybe help her with a few bucks if needed.It would have looked really creepy though.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would have liked to have talked to her,maybe help her with a few bucks if needed.It would have looked really creepy though.




Go through the hospital's patient relations dept. Tell them the date and time and circumstances. Ask if you can make an anonymous donation to the hospital for them to provide it to her. Move fast. 

Depending on your generosity you might consider at same time making a small donation to the hospital itself or their charity, to thank them for doing this for you. I might motivate them the assist you if they resist. 

Help can be in form of supplies, not necessarily cash. Better that way. See what the hospital says. 

Move fast if you do this. Time makes it harder to find her.


----------



## MSalmoides

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I seen something very sad today,it really affected me and I don't know why.I called over to see Sam and to thank her friend who had given me the advice about DNA testing etc.She was working on the maternity ward at the hospital and Sam brought me up to say hello.I had bought her a little gift as a thank you.There was a few new born babies and there were husbands and boyfriends both visiting and collecting their partners and babies to bring them home.One girl was leaving just at the same time I was,she was carrying her baby in a sort of baby chair..Im not sure what it is called.The thing is she was leaving on her own,there was no husband or boyfriend or even grandparents to collect her.I felt so sad watching her walk out of the hospital on her own.


The fact that you're attuned enough to notice speaks volumes about you, my friend.

~MS


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Go through the hospital's patient relations dept. Tell them the date and time and circumstances. Ask if you can make an anonymous donation to the hospital for them to provide it to her. Move fast.
> 
> Depending on your generosity you might consider at same time making a small donation to the hospital itself or their charity, to thank them for doing this for you. I might motivate them the assist you if they resist.
> 
> Help can be in form of supplies, not necessarily cash. Better that way. See what the hospital says.
> 
> Move fast if you do this. Time makes it harder to find her.


I did exactly what you suggested.There is a patient comfort fund which seeks donations so I made a contribution to that and the administrator I was dealing with said they would get in contact with the girl who had the baby and give her my gift.Completely anonymously of course.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I would have liked to have talked to her,maybe help her with a few bucks if needed.It would have looked really creepy though.


especially if her partner was stuck in an important meeting somewhere. 

also remember.... she was the one who chose her baby daddy, and had voluntary sexual encounter (or chose to keep baby), chose not to have a "morning after" pill.

congradulations on being a sucker. For falling into that stupid social role that you, as a male, are expected to surrender your resources, for no return, to a woman who has done nothing for you, and will do nothing for you, and feel no debt toward you or society for her receiving her entitlement. 
Yes, some women DO refuse such giftee's - but more from no wanting their ego to suffer the idea of needing charity, or that it's likely that some debt will be expected from them for accepting the gift; than the inappropriateness of you perpetuating the victim male role. Would you have been so keen to give to an obviously needful male (eg husband or gay pair who adopted)


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> especially if her partner was stuck in an important meeting somewhere.
> 
> also remember.... she was the one who chose her baby daddy, and had voluntary sexual encounter (or chose to keep baby), chose not to have a "morning after" pill.
> 
> congradulations on being a sucker. For falling into that stupid social role that you, as a male, are expected to surrender your resources, for no return, to a woman who has done nothing for you, and will do nothing for you, and feel no debt toward you or society for her receiving her entitlement.
> Yes, some women DO refuse such giftee's - but more from no wanting their ego to suffer the idea of needing charity, or that it's likely that some debt will be expected from them for accepting the gift; than the inappropriateness of you perpetuating the victim male role. Would you have been so keen to give to an obviously needful male (eg husband or gay pair who adopted)


Yes, I would.My closest friend in the world is a gay woman who has just got out of a long term relationship with her lesbian partner.They tried to adopt on numerous occasions but were rejected and I think this is the reason they separated.I was asking for nothing from this girl I just felt sorry for her.
Your bitterness comes across very strongly in your post.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> especially if her partner was stuck in an important meeting somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> also remember.... she was the one who chose her baby daddy, and had voluntary sexual encounter (or chose to keep baby), chose not to have a "morning after" pill.
> 
> 
> 
> congradulations on being a sucker. For falling into that stupid social role that you, as a male, are expected to surrender your resources, for no return, to a woman who has done nothing for you, and will do nothing for you, and feel no debt toward you or society for her receiving her entitlement.
> 
> Yes, some women DO refuse such giftee's - but more from no wanting their ego to suffer the idea of needing charity, or that it's likely that some debt will be expected from them for accepting the gift; than the inappropriateness of you perpetuating the victim male role. Would you have been so keen to give to an obviously needful male (eg husband or gay pair who adopted)




By your thinking any guy with a cheating wife CHOSE to marry her, and you'd be a sucker spending your time here trying to help him. Time is a expensive resource.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> making a small donation to the hospital itself or their charity,


Because, y'know, medical people and suppliers are paid so terribly badly and can't afford to do such things themselves....


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> By your thinking any guy with a cheating wife CHOSE to marry her, and you'd be a sucker spending your time here trying to help him. Time is a expensive resource.


The word cheating is redundant ( and the term wife is gender-biased). emend these and re-submit.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Yes, I would.My closest friend in the world is a gay woman who has just got out of a long term relationship with her lesbian partner.They tried to adopt on numerous occasions but were rejected and I think this is the reason they separated.I was asking for nothing from this girl I just felt sorry for her.
> Your bitterness comes across very strongly in your post.


you don't know the difference between gay women and gay men yet? Thank you for strengthening my argument about the gender bias problem in your victimisation.
Yes, I also understand (historically speaking) getting an abusive husband was considered a sign of moral strength too.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> you don't know the difference between gay women and gay men yet? Thank you for strengthening my argument about the gender bias problem in your victimisation.
> Yes, I also understand (historically speaking) getting an abusive husband was considered a sign of moral strength too.


Man you are really angry about something and I don't think me giving a few dollars to someone is causing your anger.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> Because, y'know, medical people and suppliers are paid so terribly badly and can't afford to do such things themselves....




they are extremely overworked and if asking for an additional favor it cannot hurt. 

The clerk in the admin office is not paid well. Yes. 

I have dealt with these folks for four years in several hospitals. 

I always bought food to the nursing station. It got my spouse better service.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Man you are really angry about something and I don't think me giving a few dollars to someone is causing your anger.


You remember a chap recently posting how he had been with his wife for X years (large number) and she turns around and says "Not in love with you" and walks out taking pretty much most of the "communal" property - which he was the "resource provider" for most of it ?

Or how some women has posted how her male partner is a deadbeat and won't provide, or how she does her career but considers "what is he committing to the relationship, why do I keep dead wood around"?

The example of doing the male [resource] equivalent of dressing up in your shortest skirt and push up bra, putting on certain "attention seeking" makeup, and going to the local meat/gang/military bar, getting boozed senseless, and then wanting to have "your choices respected" with what follows.
True, yours is more the case of saying "sorry Mr Cosby, I have a headache but I will take your quaaludes thanks". In other words what gets me angry, is you're a victim, you're not even smart enough to realise it, and you continue to make the 'it's just a party' aspect (ie It's a nice thing to do to enable others) seem like a positive thing - leading to people like the above two paragraphs being caught in the perpetuation of that myth, and in their innocence of the darker underbelly being subjected to massive damage.

You do NOT owe that girl anything - she and others like her owe it to themselves to sort their c..p out - and with numbskulls like you enabling them they have no reason to not parasite/take-advantage of your willing stupidity.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> You remember a chap recently posting how he had been with his wife for X years (large number) and she turns around and says "Not in love with you" and walks out taking pretty much most of the "communal" property - which he was the "resource provider" for most of it ?
> 
> Or how some women has posted how her male partner is a deadbeat and won't provide, or how she does her career but considers "what is he committing to the relationship, why do I keep dead wood around"?
> 
> The example of doing the male [resource] equivalent of dressing up in your shortest skirt and push up bra, putting on certain "attention seeking" makeup, and going to the local meat/gang/military bar, getting boozed senseless, and then wanting to have "your choices respected" with what follows.
> True, yours is more the case of saying "sorry Mr Cosby, I have a headache but I will take your quaaludes thanks". In other words what gets me angry, is you're a victim, you're not even smart enough to realise it, and you continue to make the 'it's just a party' aspect (ie It's a nice thing to do to enable others) seem like a positive thing - leading to people like the above two paragraphs being caught in the perpetuation of that myth, and in their innocence of the darker underbelly being subjected to massive damage.
> 
> You do NOT owe that girl anything - she and others like her owe it to themselves to sort their c..p out - and with numbskulls like you enabling them they have no reason to not parasite/take-advantage of your willing stupidity.


I know absolutely nothing about this girl except she has just had a baby and seemed to be alone.
You know absolutely nothing about this girl either but Your vitriol towards her astonishes me.You have made yourself judge,jury and executioner.You insult people who have the audacity to have a different opinion than you and what Mr Cosby has to do with it is beyond me.
I really hope you don't have a daughter (or a son)that may through no fault of their own need a little help because I can't see any coming from you.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I think what you did was nice. Especially as you did it anonymously. The world needs more kind and generous people. What a great example for your step son and daughter. Sometimes people don't need to look desperate to still appreciate something nice done for them


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> You remember a chap recently posting how he had been with his wife for X years (large number) and she turns around and says "Not in love with you" and walks out taking pretty much most of the "communal" property - which he was the "resource provider" for most of it ?
> 
> 
> 
> Or how some women has posted how her male partner is a deadbeat and won't provide, or how she does her career but considers "what is he committing to the relationship, why do I keep dead wood around"?
> 
> 
> 
> The example of doing the male [resource] equivalent of dressing up in your shortest skirt and push up bra, putting on certain "attention seeking" makeup, and going to the local meat/gang/military bar, getting boozed senseless, and then wanting to have "your choices respected" with what follows.
> 
> True, yours is more the case of saying "sorry Mr Cosby, I have a headache but I will take your quaaludes thanks". In other words what gets me angry, is you're a victim, you're not even smart enough to realise it, and you continue to make the 'it's just a party' aspect (ie It's a nice thing to do to enable others) seem like a positive thing - leading to people like the above two paragraphs being caught in the perpetuation of that myth, and in their innocence of the darker underbelly being subjected to massive damage.
> 
> 
> 
> You do NOT owe that girl anything - she and others like her owe it to themselves to sort their c..p out - and with numbskulls like you enabling them they have no reason to not parasite/take-advantage of your willing stupidity.




Read his posts again. HE felt bad and doing this made HIM feel better. He has the money. 

He is certainly not victim. He initiated this. The woman probably never even saw him. 

I think you are projecting your victim hood. What is the name of the woman that hurt you so much?

Yesterday i gave a very large tip to the waitress that served us lunch. I didn't ask if she was going to use it to pay rent or snort coke with her tattooed boyfriend.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> The word cheating is redundant ( and the term wife is gender-biased). emend these and re-submit.




Ha. Ha. So what word is "cheating" redundant with?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Ha. Ha. So what word is "cheating" redundant with?


The poster can't articulate his argument,therefore resorts to personal abuse.It is called ad hominem fallacy where the debater is attacked rather than their logic.It is pointless continuing to debate because he will never admit he is wrong and will just resort to more meaningless diatribe.


----------



## just got it 55

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MSalmoides said:


> The fact that you're attuned enough to notice speaks volumes about you, my friend.
> 
> ~MS


Compassion is an amazing quality in a human.

Very near the top of the list IMO

55


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I think what you did was very admirable.
How bad J been feeling?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



citygirl4344 said:


> I think what you did was very admirable.
> How bad J been feeling?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She has been ok,the morning sickness has stopped,as has the mother sickness.I have been trying to figure out how to ask her to try couples counselling but she beat me to the punch on Saturday.We have an appointment in an hour from now.Its worth trying I suppose but we are getting along better than ever.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well the counselling session didn't quite go as planned.There was two of them a man and woman.I knew them both from my single days and they didn't feel comfortable with carrying on.
And in her case I "really" knew her.
We are trying again on Friday with a different person.
I'm not sure what I'm letting myself in for but it probably can't do any harm.


----------



## citygirl4344

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Hmm
Well at least you are going to try again.
It's great that you two are doing counseling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Your slept with your counselor and made an appointment with her?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Your slept with your counselor and made an appointment with her?


I didn't make the appointment,J did.When I knew the counsellor she wasn't married and she lived in the same apt block as Ally,Sam and me.When J told me their names I didn't recognise hers as she has taken her husbands surname and I don't think I ever knew his.They didn't mention any of this in front of J,as soon as we went in to their office they both recognised me and said it would be inappropriate as we had mutual acquaintances.Whats the fcukin odds of this happening?.
We have an appointment on Friday morning with a different counsellor and neither J or me know him.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> they are extremely overworked and if asking for an additional favor it cannot hurt.
> 
> The clerk in the admin office is not paid well. Yes.
> 
> I have dealt with these folks for four years in several hospitals.
> 
> I always bought food to the nursing station. It got my spouse better service.



So in your eyes bribery is ethical?

The clerks are well paid (compared to other sectors).
If they are overworked (compared to which other industries) then they need to take that up with management - take lower wages (eg less penal rate time) and get more staff on board. There is no right to complain when suffering the consequences of their own deliberate choices.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> So in your eyes bribery is ethical?
> 
> 
> 
> The clerks are well paid (compared to other sectors).
> 
> If they are overworked (compared to which other industries) then they need to take that up with management - take lower wages (eg less penal rate time) and get more staff on board. There is no right to complain when suffering the consequences of their own deliberate choices.




It's not bribery. They don't get the donation. 

The clerks are not well paid where o live. 

Adding more staff increases medical costs. Which we all pay. 

Anyway, OP got it done, so your comments are moot. 

Great job Andy.

Btw, if you get involved with someone who eventually does not want to live with you, you have no right to complain when suffering the consequences of your own deliberate choice.


----------



## 225985

*Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I didn't make the appointment,J did.When I knew the counsellor she wasn't married and she lived in the same apt block as Ally,Sam and me.When J told me their names I didn't recognise hers as she has taken her husbands surname and I don't think I ever knew his.They didn't mention any of this in front of J,as soon as we went in to their office they both recognised me and said it would be inappropriate as we had mutual acquaintances.Whats the fcukin odds of this happening?.
> 
> We have an appointment on Friday morning with a different counsellor and neither J or me know him.




If I get divorced, i want to live in that apt block. 

Drama does follow you. Lol.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I lived in that apt block with Ally for two years before Sam came on the scene and then the three of us lived there for around three years.It was very close to the hospital that Sam ended up working in and at least half the residents were in the medical profession.
I have three rules for dating that I never break.
1. No tattoos.
2. No doctors.
3. No nurses.
Rules two and three came into being directly because of living in that block.I know this sounds a bit hypocritical coming from me but I have never met more promiscuous people than I met there.Some of them were married or in long distance relationships but it didn't matter.I could tell stories from back then that would make the playboy mansion sound like Sesame Street.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> So in your eyes bribery is ethical?
> 
> The clerks are well paid (compared to other sectors).
> If they are overworked (compared to which other industries) then they need to take that up with management - take lower wages (eg less penal rate time) and get more staff on board. There is no right to complain when suffering the consequences of their own deliberate choices.


This is in answer to your post on the no respect for husband thread which has closed.
You are either a liar or suffering from short term memory loss if you think it's my ego that thinks you had a dig at me.You have called me stupid,a sucker and a numbskull.I know we are a long way from New Zealand but I don't think they are terms of endearment. Thats the problem with being a liar,you need a good memory.
But as I said,you have to listen to thunder.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

J stayed at my house on Thursday night and we talked about what she hoped we would gain from counselling.Her main point was how we went from a great relationship to splitting up so quickly,and how to prevent it happening again.Fair enough I suppose but the main problems we had were her friends and most of them are off the scene now anyway.She said she feels kind of isolated with not talking to her family and wants to sort that out somehow.I don't know how couples counselling is going to help with that.
She also brought up the subject of going back to work after the baby comes.I really want her to be a sahm but she is adamant she will return to work.This leaves her with the choice of working for me or doing a minimum wage job in a shop or cafe which I think is ridiculous.Now daycare doesn't really come into it because I will hire a nanny if necessary but I can't understand working for less than you pay out.She did have plans for gym classes for pregnant women but the insurance was too much.She can start working in the gym if she wants to after the baby comes but she will be an employee of a business she used to own and I know that would drive me mad in her shoes.
On Friday we went to the counselling session and the guy spoke to me on my own for about five minutes,asking me how I thought things were going before and after breaking up and I answered him honestly that I thought things were going great.He then brought J in and asked me to leave for a few minutes.Twenty minutes later he called me back in and then the fun started.J turned to me and said she felt that I had manipulated things so that her friends and her family were out of her life.I was shocked at this and asked her to explain how I managed that.She said nothing for a while and then said she didn't really think that but her head was all over the place.The counsellor just let us talk for a few minutes then asked J to wait outside.He wanted to know was I serious about J or was it the thought of the baby that was keeping me around.I told him I loved her and had never stopped loving her even when we broke up.Ffs I bought her business to save her from bankruptcy,would I have done that for someone I didn't care about.He then brought up my brother and my parents and said it was unhealthy that I never told J during our five years together what had happened.I have been to three counsellors and they have all told me the same thing.He said not to pay much attention to what J said about me manipulating her but that's not going to be easy.He spoke to both of us for a few minutes and suggested a few things to try when we are alone.We left then and have another session on Tuesday.


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

*J turned to me and said she felt that I had manipulated things so that her friends and her family were out of her life*


She does understand that the friends were toxic and her family, while not exactly toxic, were detrimental to your relationship. Right?


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I am not overly familiar with your story, but I think it is great you want her to be a sahm. 

If the issue is basically trust, what could you do to earn her trust? Have you asked her?


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, there's more choices than working for peanuts and working for you. I think it might be helpful to let her sort out her own employment, away from you, so that the idea that you manipulate and control doesn't get rooted in her head. Sounds like she needs a bit of independence and something in her life that is not attached to you or her kids.

I know you want her to be SAHM, but that's not what she wants right now. And there is good reason for that. It's very easy to lose who you are as a SAHM. Besides, working doesn't have to mean 40+ a week. She could work part time while the baby is young and increase her hours as the kids become more independent.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I am not overly familiar with your story, but I think it is great you want her to be a sahm.
> 
> If the issue is basically trust, what could you do to earn her trust? Have you asked her?


I'm not really sure at this stage.When I bought her health studio I paid her a lot more than it was worth but she returned the money.Maybe she wants us to be engaged again and I would have no problem with that.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Malaise said:


> *J turned to me and said she felt that I had manipulated things so that her friends and her family were out of her life*
> 
> 
> She does understand that the friends were toxic and her family, while not exactly toxic, were detrimental to your relationship. Right?


J always sees the best in people whereas I am more inclined to expect the worst and hope for the best.Whenever we talk about people in our past she never has a bad word to say about anyone,it's like when someone dies and everybody says nice things about them even if they were bastards.She has been talking all week about the fun her family have at Christmas and how her and her son will miss it.I suggested going to Orlando but she doesn't feel like flying and it is over twelve hundred miles from here so too far for driving.Anyway the crowds are huge at Christmas in Disney.
If she wants to visit her family at Christmas I have no problem with it but I'm not going with her,I don't forgive or forget that easily.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Andy, there's more choices than working for peanuts and working for you. I think it might be helpful to let her sort out her own employment, away from you, so that the idea that you manipulate and control doesn't get rooted in her head. Sounds like she needs a bit of independence and something in her life that is not attached to you or her kids.
> 
> I know you want her to be SAHM, but that's not what she wants right now. And there is good reason for that. It's very easy to lose who you are as a SAHM. Besides, working doesn't have to mean 40+ a week. She could work part time while the baby is young and increase her hours as the kids become more independent.


We don't live in the city,we live in a medium sized town that has one health studio.Mine.My gf is trained at different aspects of keep fit,callisthenics etc.If she doesn't work for me she will have to commute and the wages are abysmal in this job.
I honestly don't see the sense in spending three hours a day traveling to and from work to earn less than you would pay for daycare.And that is a moot point anyway because I will hire a nanny if J wants me to.I offered her the managers job when I bought the place but she turned it down so I really don't know what else I can do.She will be here shortly so I think we need a chat about what she wants to do because all I'm hearing is what she doesn't want to do.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We don't live in the city,we live in a medium sized town that has one health studio.Mine.My gf is trained at different aspects of keep fit,callisthenics etc.If she doesn't work for me she will have to commute and the wages are abysmal in this job.
> I honestly don't see the sense in spending three hours a day traveling to and from work to earn less than you would pay for daycare.And that is a moot point anyway because I will hire a nanny if J wants me to.I offered her the managers job when I bought the place but she turned it down so I really don't know what else I can do.She will be here shortly so I think we need a chat about what she wants to do because all I'm hearing is what she doesn't want to do.


Sometimes it takes knowing what you don't want to find out what you do.

Has she thought about working as an in home trainer for women who aren't able to get to a gym? Has she tossed around the idea of going to or back to college for a related degree such as physical therapist or maybe for something entirely different?


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We don't live in the city,we live in a medium sized town that has one health studio.Mine.My gf is trained at different aspects of keep fit,callisthenics etc.If she doesn't work for me she will have to commute and the wages are abysmal in this job.
> I honestly don't see the sense in spending three hours a day traveling to and from work to earn less than you would pay for daycare.And that is a moot point anyway because I will hire a nanny if J wants me to.I offered her the managers job when I bought the place but she turned it down so I really don't know what else I can do.She will be here shortly so I think we need a chat about what she wants to do because all I'm hearing is what she doesn't want to do.


you her boyfriend/husband or her manager ?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



spotthedeaddog said:


> you her boyfriend/husband or her manager ?


I was wondering if you would show up again.I hope your short term memory loss has improved and maybe you try and remember what you say to people before denying it.You told me you never had a dig at me but you called me a sucker,a numbskull and stupid.You are a lying bitter little man and if I get banned for calling you that then so be it.


----------



## becareful2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Again, I ask: why do some here think J is a keeper? She thinks and resents Andy for alienating her from her friends and family. That is a huge red flag.


----------



## Spotthedeaddog

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> It's not bribery. They don't get the donation.
> 
> The clerks are not well paid where o live.
> 
> Adding more staff increases medical costs. Which we all pay.
> 
> Anyway, OP got it done, so your comments are moot.
> 
> Great job Andy.
> 
> Btw, if you get involved with someone who eventually does not want to live with you, you have no right to complain when suffering the consequences of your own deliberate choice.



Bribery doesn't actually have to be received by the individual in question. It could go to the institution which increases their comforts or toys, or even just to an organisation (eg charity) which they support. Bribery is an extra payment or gratuity rendered _for_the_purpose_ of getting desirable extra service or attention.

adding more staff does not always increase medical costs. If you're paying penal rates, or paying high level staff high wages to do low return work, then hiring extra staff actually _reduces_ the cost as well as the workload.

And I'm well aware of the "who _eventually_ does not want to live with you". I, like many other husbands and boyfriends, have become well aware of this which is why I keep promoting the things I do, that go against the natural programming that males get. That we're in some way expected to support females. Social this is still a massive expectation and natural selection process (females are still seen as an "award" or "success possession" (which is truly screwing up some of their personal values). But in the modern age in the West, wealthy females have massive advantage and privilege that many males just aren't realising (and gonads control their minds) and so the males are being totally taken advantage of, and not realising until , after supporting her and helping her develop and letting feminist values control his life, she walks out taking the majority of his life's (social, emotional, and financial) efforts with her. Society, of course, still being entrenched in the "males must support females" mentality saying the this is all his fault, and celebrating her choice and advancement...... so I speak up and remind people "he does not owe her anything" and that "she can walk out anytime she choses" taking at least half of his life with it - so don't hand that extra over, it's not going to be appreciated, and you're really not going to get recognition or appreciation for doing so.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



becareful2 said:


> Again, I ask: why do some here think J is a keeper? She thinks and resents Andy for alienating her from her friends and family. That is a huge red flag.




Maybe because he did exactly that. 

It's not a coincidence that the word "manipulated" keeps getting mentioned by J and by several posters.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Maybe because he did exactly that.
> 
> It's not a coincidence that the word "manipulated" keeps getting mentioned by J and by several posters.


I've just logged back on and seen your post and I am very surprised at it. You were the first person to call J a keeper on my thread and I always valued your opinion.Please explain to me how I managed this feat of manipulation because I didn't consider myself to be a master of manipulation.Do you think I managed to get J pregnant by some feat of trickery or I convinced her mother to call my friend and business partner a freeloading queer and to throw her daughter and grandson out.Maybe I bribed her friends and her sisters not to have anything to do with her,or possibly convinced the bank to call in her loans.Also who are the "several" posters who mentioned manipulation,as far as I can recall only mjjean mentioned it and only in the context of letting J make up her own mind.I really would like your thoughts on this.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

The person who writes the guide to dealing with pregnant women and their emotions will make a fortune.
I was dreading J coming over today and really began to wonder if we would work out.She came in and immediately threw her arms around me,started crying and apologised for what she said on Friday at the counselling session.She said her head is all over the place and knows I didn't do anything to try to trick her.
Anyway,the makeup sex was great.
On a different note she has put on five pounds since she got pregnant and I have lost twelve,wtf does this mean.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

.


----------



## Administrator

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

test

Kevin


----------



## Tron

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> On a different note she has put on five pounds since she got pregnant and I have lost twelve,wtf does this mean.


She is doing what she is supposed to be doing as a pregnant woman. Just chill. You, on the other hand, are still running around in proverbial circles. I'm confident though, that you will figure this out, Andy.

I don't know if ultimately she is the right girl for you, she still seems very impressionable and needs to grow up some. The child may help, I dunno. A certain level of cynicism is required.

I agree that she is in a tough spot with family because having a baby is very stressful and sisters can be extremely helpful. She has to keep the cord cut with her toxic mother, stand up for herself and keep her distance. Her mom is extremely manipulative and that won't change. 

She also needs to make new and better friends. Maybe there is a meet-up group around you for first time pregnant moms or something. Her old friends need to stay gone. They weren't true friends. You might remind her of that on occasion when she is feeling sorry for herself.


----------



## EleGirl

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

This is a test to see if the post shows up.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Tron said:


> She is doing what she is supposed to be doing as a pregnant woman. Just chill. You, on the other hand, are still running around in proverbial circles. I'm confident though, that you will figure this out, Andy.
> 
> I don't know if ultimately she is the right girl for you, she still seems very impressionable and needs to grow up some. The child may help, I dunno. A certain level of cynicism is required.
> 
> I agree that she is in a tough spot with family because having a baby is very stressful and sisters can be extremely helpful. She has to keep the cord cut with her toxic mother, stand up for herself and keep her distance. Her mom is extremely manipulative and that won't change.
> 
> She also needs to make new and better friends. Maybe there is a meet-up group around you for first time pregnant moms or something. Her old friends need to stay gone. They weren't true friends. You might remind her of that on occasion when she is feeling sorry for herself.


For some reason I haven't been able to post since Sunday.J came over to my house on Sunday evening as I said and I was fearing the worst.I thought she wanted to break up or move back home with her family at the very least.She immediately gave me a hug and apologised for what she said at the counselling session.She was very upset and crying,she said her emotions are all over the place and she wasn't thinking straight.I told her I would bring her to the doctor the next day but she said she was exactly the same when she had her son.As I said the make up sex was great.I suggested her moving in with me,at least for Christmas and she agreed.
We had another appointment with the counsellor this week and it went a lot better for me but for J not so much.The guy immediately started asking her about accusing me of manipulating her and told her if she really felt this way then maybe we spend some time apart.I didn't like the sound of this at all but J swore she didn't feel that way and she knew I hadn't manipulated her.He then brought up the subject of her sisters and would she consider contacting them.She said she would think about it but I can't see,especially in the short term.He was very insistent that she needed some sort of female company and J said she had Ally to talk to.
I have to say what she said to me about manipulating her really hurt because I don't think I'm like that and this has raised some doubt in my mind.I am not used to dealing with pregnant women and maybe this is par for the course or maybe she is having second thoughts about us.I really wish I could talk to a relative or a close friend that I could trust but I can't.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Yungster said:


> test
> 
> Kevin





EleGirl said:


> This is a test to see if the post shows up.


I can see both tests now.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> For some reason I haven't been able to post since Sunday.J came over to my house on Sunday evening as I said and I was fearing the worst.I thought she wanted to break up or move back home with her family at the very least.She immediately gave me a hug and *apologised for what she said at the counselling session.She was very upset and crying,she said her emotions are all over the place and she wasn't thinking straight*.I told her I would bring her to the doctor the next day but she said she was exactly the same when she had her son.As I said the make up sex was great.I suggested her moving in with me,at least for Christmas and she agreed.
> We had another appointment with the counsellor this week and it went a lot better for me but for J not so much.*The guy immediately started asking her about accusing me of manipulating her *and told her if she really felt this way then maybe we spend some time apart.I didn't like the sound of this at all but *J swore she didn't feel that way* and she knew I hadn't manipulated her.He then brought up the subject of her sisters and would she consider contacting them.She said she would think about it but I can't see,especially in the short term.He was very insistent that she needed some sort of female company and J said she had Ally to talk to.
> I have to say what she said to me about manipulating her really hurt because I don't think I'm like that and this has raised some doubt in my mind.I am not used to dealing with pregnant women and maybe this is par for the course or maybe she is having second thoughts about us.I really wish I could talk to a relative or a close friend that I could trust but I can't.


This would worry me a little bit. You want J to be open and honest in counselling, even if the subject is painful. If she's feeling regret for sharing her feelings and if the counselor is rebuking her for it in front of you, then she'll be less likely to share in future sessions. Maybe the consellor saw an obvious case of blame shifting and he called her on it, but if not, it strikes me as a little odd.


----------



## rzmpf

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TheGoodGuy said:


> This would worry me a little bit. You want J to be open and honest in counselling, even if the subject is painful. If she's feeling regret for sharing her feelings and if the counselor is rebuking her for it in front of you, then she'll be less likely to share in future sessions. Maybe the consellor saw an obvious case of blame shifting and he called her on it, but if not, it strikes me as a little odd.


Problem is she is pregnant. Her hormone levels are most likely going crazy and that may very well accompanied by mood swings etc. Add the whole situation with her family and OP. It's hard to filter that in a therapy situation. For her and the therapist, and OP over all others. OP, you are so clueless it's almost cute.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, relax, breathe, then think.

J accused you of manipulating her away from family and friend. The accusation is not unexpected. She has been through several big changes recently. Her business has failed (before you bought it). She faced bankrupcy. She was kicked out by her mother. She found she is pregnant. She lost her fiancée (for a while). Her greatest tragedy is probably that her son's father abandoned them, and it seemed to have happened again. People who have been through such changes look for reasons. Self reflection is rarely fast. So she picked you as the reason. Who else could she blame?

Thankfully she quickly reflected and saw you weren't the reason. You might GENTLY prod her toward seeing the reality of her toxic friends and mother. But be careful, it is could be seen as the manipulation she accused you of.

I agree with the therapist that she needs female friends. Everyone needs friends. Otherwise she may drift back to her toxic friends. It is not your problem to solve, but you might help her towards making new friends by joining new mothers clubs etc.

And bad as her mother is, she is still family, J will talk to her family again. You can't and shouldn't try to stop her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> Andy, relax, breathe, then think.
> 
> J accused you of manipulating her away from family and friend. The accusation is not unexpected. She has been through several big changes recently. Her business has failed (before you bought it). She faced bankrupcy. She was kicked out by her mother. She found she is pregnant. She lost her fiancée (for a while). Her greatest tragedy is probably that her son's father abandoned them, and it seemed to have happened again. People who have been through such changes look for reasons. Self reflection is rarely fast. So she picked you as the reason. Who else could she blame?
> 
> Thankfully she quickly reflected and saw you weren't the reason. You might GENTLY prod her toward seeing the reality of her toxic friends and mother. But be careful, it is could be seen as the manipulation she accused you of.
> 
> I agree with the therapist that she needs female friends. Everyone needs friends. Otherwise she may drift back to her toxic friends. It is not your problem to solve, but you might help her towards making new friends by joining new mothers clubs etc.
> 
> And bad as her mother is, she is still family, J will talk to her family again. You can't and shouldn't try to stop her.


Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read about my problems.I have told J that I have no problem with her getting back in contact with her family and I'm not going to say anything at all about her mother.However I'm not prepared to pretend everything is forgotten about or forgiven,that is my biggest problem with J,she accepts too much at face value and then ends up being hurt by people she should be able to trust.She is moving in here today and I hope it is permanent even though she still has over three months of her lease left.Im going to try harder to get her to trust me and also try to get more involved with her son.He is a great kid and has been through a lot in the last while.
Owning this fcukin gym is getting on my nerves and I'm either going to sell it or else give it to J an Ally to run together.The guy I have managing it can't get his wife to move here so reading between the lines I think he is going to quit. It's a pity because he is doing a great job,I will offer him more money but I honestly don't think he will stay.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read about my problems.I have told J that I have no problem with her getting back in contact with her family and I'm not going to say anything at all about her mother.However I'm not prepared to pretend everything is forgotten about or forgiven,that is my biggest problem with J,she accepts too much at face value and then ends up being hurt by people she should be able to trust.She is moving in here today and I hope it is permanent even though she still has over three months of her lease left.Im going to try harder to get her to trust me and also try to get more involved with her son.He is a great kid and has been through a lot in the last while.


I would probably be the same way. I don't forget, in this situation I could be civil but would be very cold. My wife opens up the friendship again and gets hurt a second time. I suggest trying to explain how you feel, that you personally want no contact but that J is of course free to do as she wants. It is a difficult position. Family is family.
And this is part of the reason J needs other friends. What are the neighbours like?



Andy1001 said:


> Owning this fcukin gym is getting on my nerves and I'm either going to sell it or else give it to J an Ally to run together.The guy I have managing it can't get his wife to move here so reading between the lines I think he is going to quit. It's a pity because he is doing a great job,I will offer him more money but I honestly don't think he will stay.


I think you said the guy was an ex-olympian. If he quits maybe he can recommend another olympian as a replacement.
Offering it to J and Ally seems good, IF they both want it. My guess is they would be a good balance for each other. But J may not want to work for the business she used to own. It is also a step down as she used to be sole manager, now it would be a shared role. And J may not want to be given a job, she may want to earn it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



rzmpf said:


> Problem is she is pregnant. Her hormone levels are most likely going crazy and that may very well accompanied by mood swings etc. Add the whole situation with her family and OP. It's hard to filter that in a therapy situation. For her and the therapist, and OP over all others. OP, you are so clueless it's almost cute.


Ok,telling me I'm clueless is all very well but not really helping.Telling me what I'm clueless about would help.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read about my problems.I have told J that I have no problem with her getting back in contact with her family and I'm not going to say anything at all about her mother.However I'm not prepared to pretend everything is forgotten about or forgiven,that is my biggest problem with J,she accepts too much at face value and then ends up being hurt by people she should be able to trust.She is moving in here today and I hope it is permanent even though she still has over three months of her lease left.Im going to try harder to get her to trust me and also try to get more involved with her son.He is a great kid and has been through a lot in the last while.
> Owning this fcukin gym is getting on my nerves and I'm either going to sell it or else give it to J an Ally to run together.The guy I have managing it can't get his wife to move here so reading between the lines I think he is going to quit. It's a pity because he is doing a great job,I will offer him more money but I honestly don't think he will stay.




I thought the whole point of her lease was so she could get some independence, as you said she hadn't lived on her own. I wouldn't be in any hurry to get her to move in. She's only been on her own a couple of months. And it may make her feel even more like you are controlling her. I don't think you are, but pregnancy emotions are crazy!

Independence is pretty important in a relationship. She's not going to learn to have any if she moves straight from her mother to you, which is essentially what has happened. She will be with you the majority of the time after the baby is born anyway. Give her the pregnancy to sort her head out.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> I would probably be the same way. I don't forget, in this situation I could be civil but would be very cold. My wife opens up the friendship again and gets hurt a second time. I suggest trying to explain how you feel, that you personally want no contact but that J is of course free to do as she wants. It is a difficult position. Family is family.
> And this is part of the reason J needs other friends. What are the neighbours like?
> 
> 
> I think you said the guy was an ex-olympian. If he quits maybe he can recommend another olympian as a replacement.
> Offering it to J and Ally seems good, IF they both want it. My guess is they would be a good balance for each other. But J may not want to work for the business she used to own. It is also a step down as she used to be sole manager, now it would be a shared role. And J may not want to be given a job, she may want to earn it.


Thanks again for the advice.The area I live in is very secure and also very expensive.Their are twelve properties and only one has came up for sale in the last few years and I bought it for my daughter.I really only know my neighbor who owns hooch the seeing eye dog,most of the others I am only on nodding terms with.A few of them seem to travel a lot and only use their house occasionally.I think I'm the youngest resident by quite a few years so there isn't really anyone of Js age for her to talk to.
I was very lucky to get this guy to manage my gym and the amount of business he has brought in is extraordinarily,we had to extend opening times and in January we are going 24/7.I may ask him to stay working for me even if it is only a couple of days a week,he can do the paperwork at home.I will offer him a big raise but he has already told me it's not the money.Ally is very keen to buy the gym but I really would like for J to be involved.
This fcukin gym has caused me more trouble in three months than my own business has caused in ten years but in typical Andy fashion it is making a fortune.


----------



## rzmpf

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Ok,telling me I'm clueless is all very well but not really helping.Telling me what I'm clueless about would help.


Pregnant women. And their mood swings. Some make bipolar people look sane. Just take everything with a grain of salt and take your time to think about the stuff she says before you react to it. It can easily happen that she changes her mind in a couple of days/hours/minutes. Especially in her situation with her family, your relationship, her son and her job situation. It's just a lot to handle.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> I thought the whole point of her lease was so she could get some independence, as you said she hadn't lived on her own. I wouldn't be in any hurry to get her to move in. She's only been on her own a couple of months. And it may make her feel even more like you are controlling her. I don't think you are, but pregnancy emotions are crazy!
> 
> Independence is pretty important in a relationship. She's not going to learn to have any if she moves straight from her mother to you, which is essentially what has happened. She will be with you the majority of the time after the baby is born anyway. Give her the pregnancy to sort her head out.


I know her being independent is very important both to me and her.The thing is she is very lonely where she is and with there being no contact with her sisters she has no female company except when Ally calls over.This is just for Christmas at the moment and I want to see how we get along living together.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I know her being independent is very important both to me and her.The thing is she is very lonely where she is and with there being no contact with her sisters she has no female company except when Ally calls over.This is just for Christmas at the moment and I want to see how we get along living together.


I was going to comment on her moving in so soon, but I think her being pregnant and lonely is a bigger problem, especially at Christmas.

What about you move in with her? This is not about who has the best house. This is about building her independence.

The most important thing though is to keep talking and listening. And it seems like that is happening.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> I was going to comment on her moving in so soon, but I think her being pregnant and lonely is a bigger problem, especially at Christmas.
> 
> *What about you move in with her? *This is not about who has the best house. This is about building her independence.
> 
> The most important thing though is to keep talking and listening. And it seems like that is happening.


The bolded is a really good idea, Andy. You could move into her world, instead of asking her to move into yours. That would make her feel more comfortable, I bet, and build her trust.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Thanks again for the advice.The area I live in is very secure and also very expensive.Their are twelve properties and only one has came up for sale in the last few years and I bought it for my daughter.I really only know my neighbor who owns hooch the seeing eye dog,most of the others I am only on nodding terms with.A few of them seem to travel a lot and only use their house occasionally.I think I'm the youngest resident by quite a few years so there isn't really anyone of Js age for her to talk to.
> I was very lucky to get this guy to manage my gym and the amount of business he has brought in is extraordinarily,we had to extend opening times and in January we are going 24/7.I may ask him to stay working for me even if it is only a couple of days a week,he can do the paperwork at home.I will offer him a big raise but he has already told me it's not the money.Ally is very keen to buy the gym but I really would like for J to be involved.
> This fcukin gym has caused me more trouble in three months than my own business has caused in ten years but in typical Andy fashion it is making a fortune.


Ok so your neighbours don't seem obvious friends for J. 
I think J is renting outside your complex. So what about her neighbours? Maybe ask if she knows them yet. Suggest she gets to know them. Or suggest she joins clubs, or helps at her son's school. She needs something to do and she needs friends. You can't force a solution, but you should suggest ideas and try to help.

If Ally wants to buy the gym then make sure she understands that the current manager may leave. I think Ally looked at the gym's books earlier when it was nearly broke. She needs to understand that could happen again. The new equipment helped, but I think it is the current manager. Building up a gym probably requires a figurehead, someone like an olympian. Ally and J may have many skills, but may not be suited. 
And the reason you should care is Ally is J's one good friend at the moment. If the gym fails, Ally would go broke and J would loose a job. And it could be seen as your fault. Safer to sell it to a stranger.

Also, not sure if J wants the job at the gym, or you want to give it to her. Let her make the choice. And if she does want it, let her fight for the job. You didn't like that J employed her sisters, but you seem about to do the same thing.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> The bolded is a really good idea, Andy. You could move into her world, instead of asking her to move into yours. That would make her feel more comfortable, I bet, and build her trust.




I 100% agree. It will show that you are making an effort to fit into her life. Not you trying to smush her into yours. I think you will get a different perspective on things if you move into her world and let her "wear the pants" of the relationship for a while.


----------



## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Open another gym, one for Ally and one for J.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> The bolded is a really good idea, Andy. You could move into her world, instead of asking her to move into yours. That would make her feel more comfortable, I bet, and build her trust.


J has moved in with me now,at least for Christmas but I will give your suggestion some thought.The idea of living in someone else's house kind of scares me though and I haven't done it in a long time.Also her house isn't very big,no pool and I would have to leave before three am every day,my business is ran from my house and mainly operates on European time.I have to be available for the start of business every morning.This normally just takes a couple of hours or less but I suppose I could set up something remote if necessary.
I bought Js son out with me and the dog this morning and on the way back we stopped at the gym for a minute,Js youngest sister was working and to be fair she made a fuss of him and brought him out for ice cream.I asked her how things were going but she just said fine.I would like for her to call over to the house but it is up to J.I don't know if I went to far with her family but we are where we are.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> J has moved in with me now,at least for Christmas but I will give your suggestion some thought.The idea of living in someone else's house kind of scares me though and I haven't done it in a long time.Also her house isn't very big,no pool and I would have to leave before three am every day,my business is ran from my house and mainly operates on European time.I have to be available for the start of business every morning.This normally just takes a couple of hours or less but I suppose I could set up something remote if necessary.
> I bought Js son out with me and the dog this morning and on the way back we stopped at the gym for a minute,Js youngest sister was working and to be fair she made a fuss of him and brought him out for ice cream.I asked her how things were going but she just said fine.I would like for her to call over to the house but it is up to J.I don't know if I went to far with her family but we are where we are.


Yes the idea of living in someone else's house may be scary. J may be going through the same fears, she is loosing what little indepence she had, she is 'wasting' the rent money. Fear doesn't mean we don't act. IF you want to marry, I guarantee that path is scary too.

I hate getting up that early, but that is me. I think you said lived on just a few hours sleep, so a 3AM rise is what you are used to.

Another half way between moving houses is to discuss the choice with J, talk and listen. Let her know you are willing to move, either now or later. Let her air any fears. Discuss both options and see what she wants. It will build some trust and may reduce possible feelings that she is being manipulated. You have more money, better house, better job, some may think you might use them to manipulate (not that I think it), so discuss choices openly.
The later, if she is on side, perhaps you both discuss it with her son. My guess is he wants the pool, bigger bedroom, bigger TV, walks with hooch, ..., so his is an obvious choice, but bring him into the discussion. Again this may help build trust.

My guess is you didn't go to far with J's family. And the talk with her sister is a good small step to repair things. Now you must discuss with J what she wants to do. Maybe she wants to meet them at her place, or yours, or just her sisters first, or telephone first. Despite her mother being so bad, she is still her mother, and family is family. I guess being separated from her family at Christmas will be a weight for J, she should at least be trying to start repairing things, or talk it out with you. She needs friends and family.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> Yes the idea of living in someone else's house may be scary. J may be going through the same fears, she is loosing what little indepence she had, she is 'wasting' the rent money. Fear doesn't mean we don't act. IF you want to marry, I guarantee that path is scary too.
> 
> I hate getting up that early, but that is me. I think you said lived on just a few hours sleep, so a 3AM rise is what you are used to.
> 
> Another half way between moving houses is to discuss the choice with J, talk and listen. Let her know you are willing to move, either now or later. Let her air any fears. Discuss both options and see what she wants. It will build some trust and may reduce possible feelings that she is being manipulated. You have more money, better house, better job, some may think you might use them to manipulate (not that I think it), so discuss choices openly.
> The later, if she is on side, perhaps you both discuss it with her son. My guess is he wants the pool, bigger bedroom, bigger TV, walks with hooch, ..., so his is an obvious choice, but bring him into the discussion. Again this may help build trust.
> 
> My guess is you didn't go to far with J's family. And the talk with her sister is a good small step to repair things. Now you must discuss with J what she wants to do. Maybe she wants to meet them at her place, or yours, or just her sisters first, or telephone first. Despite her mother being so bad, she is still her mother, and family is family. I guess being separated from her family at Christmas will be a weight for J, she should at least be trying to start repairing things, or talk it out with you. She needs friends and family.


Hello again.I know it was you who originally suggested that I moved in with J but I accidentally quoted someone else when I answered.My apologies.
I talked to my gym manager today and he gave me formal notice of two weeks that he is quitting.The poor guy was almost in tears but his wife refuses to move and they have two young children so I understand completely.He is a real nice guy and I hate to lose him.I asked him about maybe coming over here for a couple of days each week but it would be a long commute for him.I may have had a brainwave though.I am going to give Ally the managers job and ask J to mentor her in running it.She will get a salary and I will be strictly hands off.My accountants will still check the books fortnightly.If this doesn't work I am going to sell the place to Ally.
The reason I said I have to get up at before three am is I don't want to wake J and her son.A few weeks ago I would have just paid the rental money myself but I'm learning J doesn't like it when I do this.


----------



## bandit.45

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I've lost track of who everyone is in this story.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Hello again.I know it was you who originally suggested that I moved in with J but I accidentally quoted someone else when I answered.My apologies.
> I talked to my gym manager today and he gave me formal notice of two weeks that he is quitting.The poor guy was almost in tears but his wife refuses to move and they have two young children so I understand completely.He is a real nice guy and I hate to lose him.I asked him about maybe coming over here for a couple of days each week but it would be a long commute for him.I may have had a brainwave though.I am going to give Ally the managers job and ask J to mentor her in running it.She will get a salary and I will be strictly hands off.My accountants will still check the books fortnightly.If this doesn't work I am going to sell the place to Ally.
> The reason I said I have to get up at before three am is I don't want to wake J and her son.A few weeks ago I would have just paid the rental money myself but I'm learning J doesn't like it when I do this.


Did you ask the gym manager if he could recommend another olympian as a replacement?

I don't see your brainwave quite so positively, especially if things go badly. And with the olympian leaving things may drift back to where they were before. He knew how to run a gym. I fear no-one else around can do such a good job. I don't want to be rude, but Ally has never run a gym (I think) and J almost run it into the ground. Both Ally and J could see you as manipulating them, or leaving them with a lemon. Have you talked to Ally and J and seen if they are interested? But anyway, I think the biggest problem is NOT J's employment status, it is her loneliness.

You could mention the current manager is leaving and does J have any ideas. She may know other people who could do it. You might mention it to Ally too. Then you might ask if they are interested. But talk first.

And if it doesn't work then DON'T sell it to Ally. Her friendship to you and J is worth more than the sale price of the gym.

Good to see you are learning. Don't pay her rent, especially don't do it without asking. She still has money from the gym sale. She can ask for help if she needs it. You can ask her if she needs help.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> Did you ask the gym manager if he could recommend another olympian as a replacement?
> 
> I don't see your brainwave quite so positively, especially if things go badly. And with the olympian leaving things may drift back to where they were before. He knew how to run a gym. I fear no-one else around can do such a good job. I don't want to be rude, but Ally has never run a gym (I think) and J almost run it into the ground. Both Ally and J could see you as manipulating them, or leaving them with a lemon. Have you talked to Ally and J and seen if they are interested? But anyway, I think the biggest problem is NOT J's employment status, it is her loneliness.
> 
> You could mention the current manager is leaving and does J have any ideas. She may know other people who could do it. You might mention it to Ally too. Then you might ask if they are interested. But talk first.
> 
> And if it doesn't work then DON'T sell it to Ally. Her friendship to you and J is worth more than the sale price of the gym.
> 
> Good to see you are learning. Don't pay her rent, especially don't do it without asking. She still has money from the gym sale. She can ask for help if she needs it. You can ask her if she needs help.


I gave this some thought and you are probably right about getting another figure head to run the gym.I used a recruitment agency to get my current guy so I will probably go back there.J has made it clear she will never run the gym for me and I have to respect that.The ridiculous thing is it only took a few months to turn this business around and I have not invested that much.As it stands it will be in profit by February 2017 which as anyone in business will tell you is unbelievable,six months from near bankruptcy to profit.It is obvious that J was wasting the profits by giving them to her mother and letting her toxic friends use the gym free.We have over a thousand extra annual memberships sold during this month alone,people see it as a good Christmas present for their partners.I agree with you about not selling to Ally,she has only ever worked in gyms and never managed.I have heard there are college courses in health studio management and I will get her to check it out.
We had another counselling session today and it went OK,no more surprises.The only touchy subject was J getting back in contact with her family,the counsellor suggested she starts with her youngest sister but I will leave it up to her.


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I was very lucky to get this guy to manage my gym and the amount of business he has brought in is extraordinarily,we had to extend opening times and in January we are going 24/7.I may ask him to stay working for me even if it is only a couple of days a week,he can do the paperwork at home.I will offer him a big raise but he has already told me it's not the money.Ally is very keen to buy the gym but I really would like for J to be involved.
> This fcukin gym has caused me more trouble in three months than my own business has caused in ten years but in typical Andy fashion it is making a fortune.


offer him a small ownership stake to stay involved in some capacity where what he gets out of it, outside of equity, is based on the money it's bringing in, even if he's not running/managing the gym. He'll make dang sure he gets someone in there with experience that he likes to do so...


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



dubsey said:


> offer him a small ownership stake to stay involved in some capacity where what he gets out of it, outside of equity, is based on the money it's bringing in, even if he's not running/managing the gym. He'll make dang sure he gets someone in there with experience that he likes to do so...


That's a great idea,thanks.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I'm friendly with some of the local cops and one of them rang me a few minutes ago.Js father has just been arrested on a DUI.I don't know the full story yet but apparently he was leaving a local hotel and someone rear ended him,the cops were called and the cop who arrived smelt alcohol on his breath and breathalysed him.I called my lawyers and they are sending someone over,J is out with Ally and the boy is with me and I'm not sure whether to ring her or not.I don't think there was anyone else in the car but my cop friend didn't stay on the line long enough to get much info from him.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Call her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> Call her.


Yeah I think your right,I just did.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

So what ended up happening here? A DUI is usually pretty straightforward (ask me how I know.. many years ago..). What were your police friends or whoever your attorney sent over able to do for j's dad?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TheGoodGuy said:


> So what ended up happening here? A DUI is usually pretty straightforward (ask me how I know.. many years ago..). What were your police friends or whoever your attorney sent over able to do for j's dad?


My cop friend was just letting me know about the arrest,he couldn't actually do anything else to help.The lawyer went over to the jail and Js dad had tried called his own lawyer but got voicemail.My guy arranged bail and left him home after blood samples had been taken.I have no sympathy for drunk drivers but J wanted to help so I did.He will get hell from his wife over this and if he loses his driving license it will screw his business up too.J has insisted on paying for bail with her own money and says she will get her dad to repay her and also get him to pay for the lawyer.Bail was five hundred dollars so it could have been worse.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I have been reading your thread and I wonder why you think you have the right to tell anyone not to get a tattoo,if you don't like them then get another girlfriend


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> I have been reading your thread and I wonder why you think you have the right to tell anyone not to get a tattoo,if you don't like them then get another girlfriend


Wow,you have three posts on tam and you want to tell me how to live my life.I am really flattered and I will tell my gf we have to split up immediately because you said so.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> I have been reading your thread and I wonder why you think you have the right to tell anyone not to get a tattoo,if you don't like them then get another girlfriend


Please read the thread more thoroughly and carefully. This thread is near 900 posts. Your comment might have made a little sense at post 10, but not now.

He didn't 'tell' anyone not to get a tattoo, they agreed it was a deal breaker between the two of them. Regardless of what you or I think of tattoos, they have the right to make up their own mind. She also had deal-breakers that he agreed to.

He did start to get another girlfriend, or at least cancel the wedding and drop her as his current girl friend. Partly because of the pending tattoo, but perhaps more because of the way it was raised.

But this is all so out of date. In the last 800+ posts the thread has moved so far past these points.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Wow,you have three posts on tam and you want to tell me how to live my life.I am really flattered and I will tell my gf we have to split up immediately because you said so.


I don't know if you are trying to be funny here but there is nothing wrong with tattoos so don't bully this girl


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> I don't know if you are trying to be funny here but there is nothing wrong with tattoos so don't bully this girl


Each of us are allowed to determine what is okay.

She agreed to the boundary.

Just because you don't agree does not make this a bullying situation.


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> I don't know if you are trying to be funny here but there is nothing wrong with tattoos so don't bully this girl


Lighten up!

I love girls with tattoos, especially Irish girls with an Irish Shamrock inked onto their soft butts. The Shamrock with its three leaves represents the Holy Trinity. I will leave it to TAM's peanut gallery to list those three things on a girl that it highlights. 

This is blasphemy and it's Irish Spring for my mouth....again.

"Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón."
Many a time a man's mouth broke his nose.

I wear a crooked nose above a crooked smile....Dearie!


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> Each of us are allowed to determine what is okay.
> 
> She agreed to the boundary.
> 
> Just because you don't agree does not make this a bullying situation.


He is being controlling and she should break up with him


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> He is being controlling and she should break up with him


You are about six months late to this party.Can you go away and annoy someone else.


----------



## 23cm

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> He is being controlling and she should break up with him


Begin at the beginning and read for comprehension.


----------



## Miss Independent

*Fiancées tattoo.*

.


----------



## 23cm

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Miss Independent said:


> Did you just write "typicalI Irish woman ... Ignorant"?


Why I wouldn't even think something like that. (At least not with that punctuation. Are you Irish?)


----------



## Miss Independent

*Fiancées tattoo.*

.


----------



## 23cm

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Miss Independent said:


> "..." meant to say that some words were missing.
> 
> That's what I saw on Tapatalk.


Oh! You mean like an ellipsis?


----------



## Miss Independent

*Fiancées tattoo.*

.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



SunCMars said:


> Lighten up!
> 
> I love girls with tattoos, especially Irish girls with an Irish Shamrock inked onto their soft butts. The Shamrock with its three leaves represents the Holy Trinity. I will leave it to TAM's peanut gallery to list those three things on a girl that it highlights.
> 
> This is blasphemy and it's Irish Spring for my mouth....again.
> 
> "Is minic a bhris béal duine a shrón."
> Many a time a man's mouth broke his nose.
> 
> I wear a crooked nose above a crooked smile....Dearie!


There are only two types of people in the world.
The Irish and those that wish they were Irish.


----------



## 23cm

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Miss Independent said:


> Yes.


Nope I didn't use an ellipsis.


----------



## Miss Independent

*Fiancées tattoo.*

.


----------



## 23cm

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Miss Independent said:


> Okay. I used an ellipsis because I couldn't remember exactly what *you* wrote.
> 
> My Tapatalk showed that you called the other poster ignorant before editing your post.


Oh, you mean ignorant as in: "lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular. synonyms:	without knowledge of, unaware of, unconscious of, oblivious to, incognizant of, unfamiliar with, unacquainted with, uninformed about, ill-informed about, unenlightened about, unconversant with, inexperienced in/with, naive about, green about?"

Oh, you mean like belligerently jumping into a 900-post long thread without reading much, if any, of the preceding narrative and making rude and presumptive comments to the OP? (Femsplaining?)

Is that what you mean?


----------



## Miss Independent

*Fiancées tattoo.*

.


----------



## 23cm

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Miss Independent said:


> You tell me since you're the one who called a poster ignorant.


You might very well ask if she is ignorant. 0


----------



## 23cm

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



23cm said:


> You might very well ask if she is ignorant. 0


Oops. My mistake. Turns out Robbie is a "HE" and in that case, yes.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



23cm said:


> Begin at the beginning and read for comprehension.


I have been reading from the beginning and this guy thinks he owns her,he doesn't so he should let her do what she wants


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You shouldn't be drinking if you can't hold it


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am engaged to be married next October,my fiancée is 32 and has a seven year old son from a previous relationship.When we started being exclusive I made a point of saying tattoos were a deal breaker and she laughed and said her fear of needles would rule them out anyway.
> So of course you know what's coming.She informed in front of a lot of her friends on Sunday that she is getting a tattoo on her side to support one of her friends who has had a bereavement.I told her we needed to discuss this alone but her friends all butted in and said it's her body and she can do what she wants.I ended up going home on my own(she lives with her parents but stays in my house overnight when we go out).I met her on Monday and she was furious because I showed her up in front of her friends.
> I asked her what about our agreement and she said she was supporting her friend.I got really angry and told her if her friends meant more to her than me then there was no point going on.I swear this is the first time I ever lost my temper with her but she is adamant this tattoo is happening,and for me not to be so stupid.I really hate tattoos and there is no way we are getting married if she goes through with it.Am I being unreasonable about this.


How is having a tattoo in anyway going to support her friend?
She knew it was very important to you and she said she wouldn't get one, and now she is. Hmmm. What does that say? I would never get a tattoo if my husband hated them.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> How is having a tattoo in anyway going to support her friend?
> She knew it was very important to you and she said she wouldn't get one, and now she is. Hmmm. What does that say? I would never get a tattoo if my husband hated them.


You shouldn't have to not do something just because someone else doesn't like it.The more posts I read the less I like about the poster.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I may have taken out of context here.My fiancée is a great mother to her son and if I gave any other impression then I apologise.What I meant was these freeloaders would have to find some other fool to pay for their nights out.My fiancée always gets her son up in the morning even when she stays over,she leaves him to and collects him from school every day.Her mother watches him at night but only if she is with me.With all the arrangements for the wedding we have been out more than usual and it is when she has drunk a lot that these problems arise.
> She also runs a business with almost twenty employees part time and full time.


Your fiancée sounds great it's you who has the problem with tattoos so you should back down


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> You shouldn't have to not do something just because someone else doesn't like it.The more posts I read the less I like about the poster.


If something was very important to my husband I would respect that. If I couldn't then I shouldn't have married him. 
I have things that are deal breakers for me.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> You shouldn't have to not do something just because someone else doesn't like it.The more posts I read the less I like about the poster.


Really? So, if I wanted to take a 3 hour lunch at a day spa I should be able to do that even if my boss doesn't like it? If I wanted to have sex with random men I should be able to do that even if my husband doesn't like it?


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Miss Independent said:


> Okay. I used an ellipsis because I couldn't remember exactly what *you* wrote.
> 
> My Tapatalk showed that you called the other poster ignorant before editing your post.


Keep in mind...Bub. When Miss Independent uses an Ellipsis it has lipstick on it.

And it frames a pretty smile....and is under a cute nose.

FYI...and all.


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Really? So, if I wanted to take a 3 hour lunch at a day spa I should be able to do that even if my boss doesn't like it? If I wanted to have sex with *random men* I should be able to do that even if my husband doesn't like it?


God, I like this.

Even though I should not.

And you should not.....too and also a too true. 

Random men..........we are all random....until we are not.
.............................................................................................................................................................
Some people stand in their own light and wonder why others cannot see their "point".

Being right all the time gets to be boring. Humility lets you start at a lower level and re-generate, upwards..... over and over, up and down.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Really? So, if I wanted to take a 3 hour lunch at a day spa I should be able to do that even if my boss doesn't like it? If I wanted to have sex with random men I should be able to do that even if my husband doesn't like it?


That's not what I mean.She is entitled to get a tattoo if she wants one,or ten.I met men like this before they think they control everything.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Her moving out is the first thing on the agenda.


Why should she move out just because her boyfriend wants her too.


----------



## EleGirl

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> That's not what I mean.She is entitled to get a tattoo if she wants one,or ten.I met men like this before they think they control everything.


You are right, she can get all the tattoos she wants.

But, if he does not like tattoos on his partner, he has all the right to not want that.

He can talk to her and request that she not get tattoos.

Then it's up to her to decide if she will get no tattoo based on his feelings about them or if she wants to get one or many.

And he has the right to not continue to a relationship with a woman who has tattoos.

He does not have the right to control her. But he has the right to chose a woman based on his own parameters.


----------



## EleGirl

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Why should she move out just because her boyfriend wants her too.


Because she is living in his house.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> That's not what I mean.She is entitled to get a tattoo if she wants one,or ten.I met men like this before they think they control everything.


 She is free to get 100 tattoos but not with a man who hates them. 
She knew that. 
When you are married/engaged you are supposed to think of the other spouse believe it or not, and not just your own selfish desires/wants.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> That's not what I mean.She is entitled to get a tattoo if she wants one,or ten.I met men like this before they think they control everything.


Just as she is entitled to get a tattoo, he is entitled to leave because he doesn't want to be in a relationship with a tattooed woman. Seems simple enough.


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Robbie, Robbie

Your cupboard is bare. 

In this world, "You don't always get what you want"!


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Just as she is entitled to get a tattoo, he is entitled to leave because he doesn't want to be in a relationship with a tattooed woman. Seems simple enough.


Which I believe he did.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Which I believe he did.


Last I looked, they were together and expecting a baby girl. IIRC, they're in couples counseling and considering marriage in the future.

@Andy1001

I haven't been to check your thread since Thanksgiving. I got triggered. 

LSS, my mother's brother was a gay man. My "step father" (they were together 18 years, but never married) was a homophobe back in the day. My Uncle lived out of state and wasn't allowed over to visit if his partner was with him and dad wanted him around in a very limited way. My mom fought bitterly with him over it, but she was disabled, unemployable, and had 3 young kids, so our interaction with Uncle was not as much as it could have been and mostly done in secret via phone and letter.

When my mother died, my dad basically disappeared with us and kept us from contact with my gay uncle and my mothers other brother, too. They were the last of my blood family other than a two siblings and a few cousins. Cousins I also missed out on having in my life.

My hetero uncle looked for us for 17 years before he found us. He has cancer and has been battling it for 8 years. My gay uncle passed away some years back. I wonder if Uncle thought we didn't love him, if he missed us, if he thought about us, if he was hurting over it all when he was approaching the end of his life...

The comments about Ally made by J's family made me want to throat punch people. I had to avoid the thread for a bit. Sorry, man.


----------



## CharlieParker

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Sorry @MJJEAN, that's aweful.

On tattoos, better before marriage. After 10 years of marriage I came home from a 10 day business trip and my wife says "I have something to show you". It was a shock, but not a deal breaker (it helped that it was a tribute to me).


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



CharlieParker said:


> Sorry @MJJEAN, that's aweful.
> 
> On tattoos, better before marriage. After 10 years of marriage I came home from a 10 day business trip and my wife says "I have something to show you". It was a shock, but not a deal breaker (it helped that it was a tribute to me).


Thanks. It was a different world back then. I'm thrilled at how far we've come and hopeful for the future. I just wish Uncle would have lived to see gay folks raising families and getting legally married. He would have been so happy.

Anyways, back to the topic, I'd never get a tattoo without clearing it with DH. Frankly, he'd have to look at it more than I would and I wouldn't want to risk him being turned off by it. I like sex way too much for that! :grin2:

My DD, who is 23, got my name in cursive on her shoulder blade a few months ago. I am trying to convince her to get "Made by" done stamp style above it.

I can almost see Andy cringing.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Last I looked, they were together and expecting a baby girl. IIRC, they're in couples counseling and considering marriage in the future.
> 
> @Andy1001
> 
> I haven't been to check your thread since Thanksgiving. I got triggered.
> 
> LSS, my mother's brother was a gay man. My "step father" (they were together 18 years, but never married) was a homophobe back in the day. My Uncle lived out of state and wasn't allowed over to visit if his partner was with him and dad wanted him around in a very limited way. My mom fought bitterly with him over it, but she was disabled, unemployable, and had 3 young kids, so our interaction with Uncle was not as much as it could have been and mostly done in secret via phone and letter.
> 
> When my mother died, my dad basically disappeared with us and kept us from contact with my gay uncle and my mothers other brother, too. They were the last of my blood family other than a two siblings and a few cousins. Cousins I also missed out on having in my life.
> 
> My hetero uncle looked for us for 17 years before he found us. He has cancer and has been battling it for 8 years. My gay uncle passed away some years back. I wonder if Uncle thought we didn't love him, if he missed us, if he thought about us, if he was hurting over it all when he was approaching the end of his life...
> 
> The comments about Ally made by J's family made me want to throat punch people. I had to avoid the thread for a bit. Sorry, man.


Hi MJ.I am really sorry that something that I wrote triggered a bad memory for you about your uncle,may he rest in peace.You have given me some good advice on this forum and I appreciate it.You have also given me some good laughs and your comment about someone insulting your sisters dog is the funniest thing I heard in years.
J has about six or seven weeks to go and we are living together and getting on ok.Ally has moved out to her own place.We were in counselling for a while but Js emotions were all over the place so we stopped going at least for the time being.We did a lot of weekend traveling for a while but she can't fly anymore so we are back in my house.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Thanks. It was a different world back then. I'm thrilled at how far we've come and hopeful for the future. I just wish Uncle would have lived to see gay folks raising families and getting legally married. He would have been so happy.
> 
> Anyways, back to the topic, I'd never get a tattoo without clearing it with DH. Frankly, he'd have to look at it more than I would and I wouldn't want to risk him being turned off by it. I like sex way too much for that! :grin2:
> 
> My DD, who is 23, got my name in cursive on her shoulder blade a few months ago. I am trying to convince her to get "Made by" done stamp style above it.
> 
> I can almost see Andy cringing.


No No No No No
Just No.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Hi MJ.I am really sorry that something that I wrote triggered a bad memory for you about your uncle,may he rest in peace.You have given me some good advice on this forum and I appreciate it.You have also given me some good laughs and your comment about someone insulting your sisters dog is the funniest thing I heard in years.
> J has about six or seven weeks to go and we are living together and getting on ok.Ally has moved out to her own place.We were in counselling for a while but Js emotions were all over the place so we stopped going at least for the time being.We did a lot of traveling for a while but she can't fly anymore so we are back in my house.


Aww, no need to be sorry. It's not your fault my dad was a d*uche in the 80's an 90's. I found out the whole story about my uncles from the one battling cancer a couple years ago. I rarely talk to my dad now and when I do it's out of familial obligation. He did raise me, after all. And he makes steak that tastes like it was marinaded in angel tears. I need the recipe, dammit!

Ahh, Lily (the dog) and the brawl at the mud bog!! :rofl:

J's emotions being all over the place is totally normal during pregnancy and the post-partum period, too. She'll be sane again within about a year, maybe less, maybe more. Hormones and sleep deprivation...UGH! Just remain calm, help as much as possible, and roll with it!


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> No No No No No
> Just No.


Oh, I was NOT pleased. However, what's done is done and I might as well have fun with it, right? I told her I want the "Made by" thing because I want the world to know I manufacture quality humans.


----------



## SunCMars

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> No No No No No
> Just No.


Boy, that "No-No Tattoo" would get her no man.............and no fun!

The worst thing a women can say to a man is........NO!

Even her future babies would be put off by "those" words on her arm.

Then again, maybe if she added "Andy" before those no's, all would be

Hunky-Dorys and no stubborn Dorks.

This is satire....well, maybe Salt-tire......no harm meant >


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Aww, no need to be sorry. It's not your fault my dad was a d*uche in the 80's an 90's. I found out the whole story about my uncles from the one battling cancer a couple years ago. I rarely talk to my dad now and when I do it's out of familial obligation. He did raise me, after all. And he makes steak that tastes like it was marinaded in angel tears. I need the recipe, dammit!
> 
> Ahh, Lily (the dog) and the brawl at the mud bog!! :rofl:
> 
> J's emotions being all over the place is totally normal during pregnancy and the post-partum period, too. She'll be sane again within about a year, maybe less, maybe more. Hormones and sleep deprivation...UGH! Just remain calm, help as much as possible, and roll with it!


She is all over the place all right,jeeez.She goes from talking about how this baby is going to become a famous athlete to swearing that as soon as she is born I can have full custody and she is doing her own thing.Her sister told me she was far worse when she was pregnant with her son and repeatedly threatened to give him up for adoption as soon as he was born.Of course as soon as she held him in her arms all this talk was forgotten about.The sleepless nights won't bother me,I start work before three am and am finished by five so I am used to being up all night anyway,plus I don't sleep for more than two hours a night at the best of times.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She is all over the place all right,jeeez.She goes from talking about how this baby is going to become a famous athlete to swearing that as soon as she is born I can have full custody and she is doing her own thing.Her sister told me she was far worse when she was pregnant with her son and repeatedly threatened to give him up for adoption as soon as he was born.Of course as soon as she held him in her arms all this talk was forgotten about.The sleepless nights won't bother me,I start work before three am and am finished by five so I am used to being up all night anyway,plus I don't sleep for more than two hours a night at the best of times.


Carrying my son, I was fine. Carrying my daughters, I was a raving lunatic. Really, the hormones are the worst of it for some of us. Then there's the worries and "what if's" to add a little spice to the insanity. 

It's good that you are something of a nocturnal insomniac. You could take the night feedings so that J can get some rest. If she opts to breast feed, she can pump the milk into bottles for you to give Baby Girl at night. If not, making formula isn't hard at all. 

Back when myself and friends were having babies, we were SAHM's and let the daddies sleep for work as most worked early shift physical jobs. This meant a lot of the dad's didn't really, really, bond with the little ones until later when they were able to do more hands on care. You have the opportunity to bond tight very early. That's pretty awesome!

Just another month and some change to go! Have you done baby classes or are you relying on J to teach you how to hold, feed, burp, and change the little sprite?


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> She was sort of betrayed, but this would be a red flag for me. Personally, I'd be on the way out. All your talks are centering around YOUR actions which, are not related to the incident or previous ones. Did you ask her if the family members said the same things to her?
> 
> Good luck dude, this sounds more and more like a nightmare. Still, a KISA loves drama.


He did betray her by talking behind his fiancee back.She should break up with him


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> He did betray her by talking behind his fiancee back.She should break up with him


Dude,this post is seven months old.Again,will you go and annoy someone else.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Carrying my son, I was fine. Carrying my daughters, I was a raving lunatic. Really, the hormones are the worst of it for some of us. Then there's the worries and "what if's" to add a little spice to the insanity.
> 
> It's good that you are something of a nocturnal insomniac. You could take the night feedings so that J can get some rest. If she opts to breast feed, she can pump the milk into bottles for you to give Baby Girl at night. If not, making formula isn't hard at all.
> 
> Back when myself and friends were having babies, we were SAHM's and let the daddies sleep for work as most worked early shift physical jobs. This meant a lot of the dad's didn't really, really, bond with the little ones until later when they were able to do more hands on care. You have the opportunity to bond tight very early. That's pretty awesome!
> 
> Just another month and some change to go! Have you done baby classes or are you relying on J to teach you how to hold, feed, burp, and change the little sprite?


We did go to some classes but I wasn't ready for the childbirth video and almost throwing up didn't impress anyone.J thought it was funny though.It's the thought of dirty diapers that is really worrying me but everyone tells me that your own baby's poop doesn't stink.I will take that under advisement.As far as night feeding goes I will have no problem with that.I'm not actually an insomniac it's far more complicated than that,lol.I wake up after a couple of hours sleep completely alert,not exhausted like an insomniac would.Even after a night of drinking I wake up at two thirty at the latest and am ready for action.I was part of a study by one of the universities when I was a kid,they were suggesting drug treatment but my Mom didn't allow it and wouldn't let them publish my name in the resulting paper either.It really has never bothered me though.During my long time at college (six months) I could study all night If necessary for days on end.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We did go to some classes but I wasn't ready for the childbirth video and almost throwing up didn't impress anyone.J thought it was funny though.It's the thought of dirty diapers that is really worrying me but everyone tells me that your own baby's poop doesn't stink.I will take that under advisement.As far as night feeding goes I will have no problem with that.I'm not actually an insomniac it's far more complicated than that,lol.I wake up after a couple of hours sleep completely alert,not exhausted like an insomniac would.Even after a night of drinking I wake up at two thirty at the latest and am ready for action.I was part of a study by one of the universities when I was a kid,they were suggesting drug treatment but my Mom didn't allow it and wouldn't let them publish my name in the resulting paper either.It really has never bothered me though.During my long time at college (six months) I could study all night If necessary for days on end.


I won't lie, childbirth is gross. If you stand by the head of the bed, you don't have to look at the gross stuff. It's optional.

My dad had a weak stomach, total wimp, but he wanted to be there for mom when she had my siblings. He'd coach through the labor and then step out into the hall when the head crowned. He'd come back into the room after the baby was cleaned up. Knowing how easily he'd throw up or pass out, Mom totally understood and never held it against him.

You have been lied to! Your own baby's poop absolutely does stink! For the first few weeks, it really doesn't have much of a scent. The scent does eventually appear and so does a variety of colors depending what the baby has had to eat and drink. If Baby Girl poops mustard yellow, don't freak out. 

And now I am going to get sort of graphic. A lot of men are uncomfortable changing baby girl diapers because you must thoroughly clean ALL of the cracks and crevices to prevent diaper rash. Sometimes, baby poop gets into the labia and must be cleaned. It seems men have a hard time with this because they are afraid they'll hurt the baby. There is a procedure for this, so ask J to show you. Basically, remember to wipe front to back. Never wipe back to front or you could push bacteria into the vagina and give Baby Girl an infection.

OMG! My sister and I were both like that as kids! We'd randomly wake up every 2-3 hours, wide awake, then fall back to sleep...sometime...maybe. My sister had night terrors and was a sleepwalker when she did sleep. She's in her 30's now and she's still like that, minus the terrors and sleepwalking. Being a neat freak with a husband, 6 daughters, and a couple dogs, Sis actually loves how little sleep she needs. When I hit my mid 30's, I started sleeping 4-6 hours at a stretch. Now, at 41, I need a minimum of 6 to function.

God, how I loved being able to sleep 3-4 hours and wake up raring to go. I used to get up between 2-3 am, bake dozens of cookies, study for exams, and watch MTV. This was back when MTV actually showed nothing but music videos, rofl. After I left school, I'd use that wee hours time to read whatever book I was into at the time without being interrupted by my rugrats.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> I won't lie, childbirth is gross. If you stand by the head of the bed, you don't have to look at the gross stuff. It's optional.
> 
> My dad had a weak stomach, total wimp, but he wanted to be there for mom when she had my siblings. He'd coach through the labor and then step out into the hall when the head crowned. He'd come back into the room after the baby was cleaned up. Knowing how easily he'd throw up or pass out, Mom totally understood and never held it against him.
> 
> You have been lied to! Your own baby's poop absolutely does stink! For the first few weeks, it really doesn't have much of a scent. The scent does eventually appear and so does a variety of colors depending what the baby has had to eat and drink. If Baby Girl poops mustard yellow, don't freak out.
> 
> And now I am going to get sort of graphic. A lot of men are uncomfortable changing baby girl diapers because you must thoroughly clean ALL of the cracks and crevices to prevent diaper rash. Sometimes, baby poop gets into the labia and must be cleaned. It seems men have a hard time with this because they are afraid they'll hurt the baby. There is a procedure for this, so ask J to show you. Basically, remember to wipe front to back. Never wipe back to front or you could push bacteria into the vagina and give Baby Girl an infection.
> 
> OMG! My sister and I were both like that as kids! We'd randomly wake up every 2-3 hours, wide awake, then fall back to sleep...sometime...maybe. My sister had night terrors and was a sleepwalker when she did sleep. She's in her 30's now and she's still like that, minus the terrors and sleepwalking. Being a neat freak with a husband, 6 daughters, and a couple dogs, Sis actually loves how little sleep she needs. When I hit my mid 30's, I started sleeping 4-6 hours at a stretch. Now, at 41, I need a minimum of 6 to function.
> 
> God, how I loved being able to sleep 3-4 hours and wake up raring to go. I used to get up between 2-3 am, bake dozens of cookies, study for exams, and watch MTV. This was back when MTV actually showed nothing but music videos, rofl. After I left school, I'd use that wee hours time to read whatever book I was into at the time without being interrupted by my rugrats.


If you're trying to cheer me up it's not working.lol.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> If you're trying to cheer me up it's not working.lol.


Relax! It's really not all that bad. Some parents who are a bit squeamish just hold their breath and dive in to whatever kid related chore needs done. Some otherwise squeamish parents are surprised to find out they're troupers with their own child's grossness. Some, like my dad, run screaming from the room every time the kid needs a changing!

If you want my guess, I think you'll be the kind of dad who just pinches your nose and does what needs to be done.


----------



## EleGirl

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We did go to some classes but I wasn't ready for the childbirth video and almost throwing up didn't impress anyone.J thought it was funny though.It's the thought of dirty diapers that is really worrying me but everyone tells me that your own baby's poop doesn't stink.I will take that under advisement.As far as night feeding goes I will have no problem with that.


It's not that you own baby's poop does not stink. It's that new born babies do not have the bacteria in their system yet that makes poop stink. Over a few months, your baby will get those bacteria and their poop will stink, but by then you will be used to it. 




Andy1001 said:


> I'm not actually an insomniac it's far more complicated than that,lol.I wake up after a couple of hours sleep completely alert,not exhausted like an insomniac would.Even after a night of drinking I wake up at two thirty at the latest and am ready for action.I was part of a study by one of the universities when I was a kid,they were suggesting drug treatment but my Mom didn't allow it and wouldn't let them publish my name in the resulting paper either.It really has never bothered me though.During my long time at college (six months) I could study all night If necessary for days on end.


There are some people who just do not need a lot of sleep. I went years with only about 4 hours of sleep a night. I woke alert and had more energy than most other people.


----------



## MattMatt

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Moderator note:

This thread is getting a little long.
@Andy1001 would you, please, like to start a part 2 of your thread?

Thank you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MattMatt said:


> Moderator note:
> 
> This thread is getting a little long.
> @Andy1001 would you, please, like to start a part 2 of your thread?
> 
> Thank you.


Hi Matt.I hadn't posted on my thread since last year until last week some guy called robbie1234 started commenting on old posts,he has since being banned,I don't know what for.That was what started it up again.


----------



## MattMatt

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Hi Matt.I hadn't posted on my thread since last year until last week some guy called robbie1234 started commenting on old posts,he has since being banned,I don't know what for.That was what started it up again.


It's just a technical issue. Your thread is so long and popular that sometimes people can't see the last page!


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Hi I commented on some of your thread and got banned I'm new to this and I meant nothing abusive so I'm sorry


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Hi I commented on some of your thread and got banned I'm new to this and I meant nothing abusive so I'm sorry


Well I didn't complain about you to the moderators so you must have offended someone else.You were commenting on old posts though.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My cop friend was just letting me know about the arrest,he couldn't actually do anything else to help.The lawyer went over to the jail and Js dad had tried called his own lawyer but got voicemail.My guy arranged bail and left him home after blood samples had been taken.I have no sympathy for drunk drivers but J wanted to help so I did.He will get hell from his wife over this and if he loses his driving license it will screw his business up too.J has insisted on paying for bail with her own money and says she will get her dad to repay her and also get him to pay for the lawyer.Bail was five hundred dollars so it could have been worse.


Did your father in law lose his license


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> There are only two types of people in the world.
> The Irish and those that wish they were Irish.


I agree


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She is all over the place all right,jeeez.She goes from talking about how this baby is going to become a famous athlete to swearing that as soon as she is born I can have full custody and she is doing her own thing.Her sister told me she was far worse when she was pregnant with her son and repeatedly threatened to give him up for adoption as soon as he was born.Of course as soon as she held him in her arms all this talk was forgotten about.The sleepless nights won't bother me,I start work before three am and am finished by five so I am used to being up all night anyway,plus I don't sleep for more than two hours a night at the best of times.


Did your fiancée have the baby yet


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Did your fiancée have the baby yet


No,not for another few weeks.And she is not my fiancée any more.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Did your father in law lose his license


His case hasn't came before the court yet.His lawyer seems to be stringing things along,he says the longer it takes,the weaker the cops case is.He didn't use the lawyer I sent over after he got bail and I never got the bail money back either.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> No,not for another few weeks.And she is not my fiancée any more.


?

Did I miss something?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> ?
> 
> Did I miss something?


I'm not sure what it is you are asking.


----------



## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Did you marry her or break up?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I'm not sure what it is you are asking.


Um I think you know what he is asking. You said she is not your fiance any more, which either means you got married or you are not together. Its not that hard.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Um I think you know what he is asking. You said she is not your fiance any more, which either means you got married or you are not together. Its not that hard.


Sorry I must have being having a brain freeze,I didn't really understand what farsidejunky was asking me.When we broke up last July as far as I was concerned that was the end of it.We got back together eventually but I haven't asked her to marry me.When my gf returned the money I gave her she also left her engagement ring in the envelope.So while we are living together we are not engaged.
I'm not sure about the correct way to go about it if we do get engaged again.Do I use the same ring or buy a new one.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



giddiot said:


> Did you marry her or break up?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We are living together but we are not engaged,there is no wedding planned.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Sorry I must have being having a brain freeze,I didn't really understand what farsidejunky was asking me.When we broke up last July as far as I was concerned that was the end of it.We got back together eventually but I haven't asked her to marry me.When my gf returned the money I gave her she also left her engagement ring in the envelope.So while we are living together we are not engaged.
> I'm not sure about the correct way to go about it if we do get engaged again.Do I use the same ring or buy a new one.


The same one.


----------



## Ursula

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Are you serious?!? What's so horrible about tattoos? I think that's fantastic about how she wants to support her friend, and this by no means shows that she's choosing you over her, and you're not very nice to make her choose who is more important: her friend or you. Personally, I don't blame her one bit for being furious; it's her body, and she can choose to put a tattoo on it if she would like to do that. I haven't read any of the replies so far, and won't get through them all, but am curious to see if the wedding actually went through!




Andy1001 said:


> I am engaged to be married next October,my fiancée is 32 and has a seven year old son from a previous relationship.When we started being exclusive I made a point of saying tattoos were a deal breaker and she laughed and said her fear of needles would rule them out anyway.
> So of course you know what's coming.She informed in front of a lot of her friends on Sunday that she is getting a tattoo on her side to support one of her friends who has had a bereavement.I told her we needed to discuss this alone but her friends all butted in and said it's her body and she can do what she wants.I ended up going home on my own(she lives with her parents but stays in my house overnight when we go out).I met her on Monday and she was furious because I showed her up in front of her friends.
> I asked her what about our agreement and she said she was supporting her friend.I got really angry and told her if her friends meant more to her than me then there was no point going on.I swear this is the first time I ever lost my temper with her but she is adamant this tattoo is happening,and for me not to be so stupid.I really hate tattoos and there is no way we are getting married if she goes through with it.Am I being unreasonable about this.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Sorry I must have being having a brain freeze,I didn't really understand what farsidejunky was asking me.When we broke up last July as far as I was concerned that was the end of it.We got back together eventually but I haven't asked her to marry me.When my gf returned the money I gave her she also left her engagement ring in the envelope.So while we are living together we are not engaged.
> I'm not sure about the correct way to go about it if we do get engaged again.Do I use the same ring or buy a new one.


Buy her a new one,you can afford it.How much was the first one.I would love to know how much guy's like you spend on rings.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> Are you serious?!? What's so horrible about tattoos? I think that's fantastic about how she wants to support her friend, and this by no means shows that she's choosing you over her, and you're not very nice to make her choose who is more important: her friend or you. Personally, I don't blame her one bit for being furious; it's her body, and she can choose to put a tattoo on it if she would like to do that. I haven't read any of the replies so far, and won't get through them all, but am curious to see if the wedding actually went through!


I agree with you I love tattoos.


----------



## manwithnoname

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> I agree with you I love tattoos.


Doesn't matter who likes tattoos. It matters that Andy doesn't like them. It was a deal breaker, she knew this, agreed that she didn't like needles so she would never get one etc. I don't know what the uproar is. He has every right to break it off if he so chooses.


----------



## manwithnoname

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> Are you serious?!? What's so horrible about tattoos? I think that's fantastic about how she wants to support her friend, and this by no means shows that she's choosing you over her, and you're not very nice to make her choose who is more important: her friend or you. Personally, I don't blame her one bit for being furious; it's her body, and she can choose to put a tattoo on it if she would like to do that. *I haven't read any of the replies so far,* and won't get through them all, but am curious to see if the wedding actually went through!



All you had to do is read the first sentence....


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Buy her a new one,you can afford it.How much was the first one.I would love to know how much guy's like you spend on rings.


Anything you want to know just ask,don't be shy.Seriously dude wtf.
Tell me how much are you paid and I will tell you how long it will take you to pay for a ring that "guys like me" buy for our girlfriends.
What does that statement even mean,"guys like me"
Why are you so enthralled with my story anyway.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Anything you want to know just ask,don't be shy.Seriously dude wtf.
> Tell me how much are you paid and I will tell you how long it will take you to pay for a ring that "guys like me" buy for our girlfriends.
> What does that statement even mean,"guys like me"
> Why are you so enthralled with my story anyway.


Ok I'll play along I earn eighty thousand euro a year.The reason I like your story is because it proves that even rich people can be brought down to earth by women.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Ok I'll play along I earn eighty thousand euro a year.The reason I like your story is because it proves that even rich people can be brought down to earth by women.


But it is stupid breaking up over a tattoo.She should have married him and then got it.What could he have done then.


----------



## Graywolf2

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> We are living together but we are not engaged, there is no wedding planned.


Don't get her pregnant. If you do she will have you by the balls.

_*“If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.” 

― Theodore Roosevelt *_


----------



## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> I agree with you I love tattoos.


I hate tattoos and my sons have them all over them. Some are pretty amazing works of art but they won't look that way forever. I see nothing wrong with Andy1001's dislike of tattoos as being a show stopper. I would not marry someone who smoked and if they started after I was engaged to them I would drop them like a hot potato.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Graywolf2 said:


> Don't get her pregnant. If you do she will have you by the balls.
> 
> _*“If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.”
> 
> ― Theodore Roosevelt *_


It's a bit late for that I'm afraid,she is due at the end of this month.When you say she will have me by the balls is it financially you mean.Money doesn't come into the equation,if I could get her to accept some money from me I would be happier.By the way we have custody agreements in place and they are watertight.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It's a bit late for that I'm afraid,she is due at the end of this month.When you say she will have me by the balls is it financially you mean.Money doesn't come into the equation,if I could get her to accept some money from me I would be happier.By the way we have custody agreements in place and they are watertight.


May I ask what those custody agreements are?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> May I ask what those custody agreements are?


The main agreement is that my house is the baby's primary residence and if we do not stay together my gf can not move with the baby more than fifteen miles away.The baby will own a house in my area and my gf can live there if we split up and that will also be considered primary residence.This is mainly so that when she starts school she can't be removed unless we both agree.I haven't made up my mind yet but we may homeschool for a while anyway.(Your idea)The actual hours will be finalised if necessary when the baby is finished breastfeeding.This is all in case we break up and I really don't think we will.
This sounds like a business contract but with the inheritance coming into play I wanted to make sure my girlfriends mother would never be able to get her hands on any of my daughters money.If anything should happen to my gf health wise or god forbid she died,I would get full custody.When she signed the custody agreement I told my gf that I would pay for her sons education until he is twenty five and at my insistence this was also made a legal agreement.When we were to be married originally I had intended to adopt him and as my son of course I would take care of everything.
If my gf decides to go back to work as she has threatened than the baby will stay with me during the day and I will employ a nanny or even two if necessary.My daughter cannot sell the house until she is twenty five without my permission so my gf will not be homeless in any circumstances.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The main agreement is that my house is the baby's primary residence and if we do not stay together my gf can not move with the baby more than fifteen miles away.The baby will own a house in my area and my gf can live there if we split up and that will also be considered primary residence.This is mainly so that when she starts school she can't be removed unless we both agree.I haven't made up my mind yet but we may homeschool for a while anyway.(Your idea)The actual hours will be finalised if necessary when the baby is finished breastfeeding.This is all in case we break up and I really don't think we will.
> This sounds like a business contract but with the inheritance coming into play I wanted to make sure my girlfriends mother would never be able to get her hands on any of my daughters money.If anything should happen to my gf health wise or god forbid she died,I would get full custody.When she signed the custody agreement I told my gf that I would pay for her sons education until he is twenty five and at my insistence this was also made a legal agreement.When we were to be married originally I had intended to adopt him and as my son of course I would take care of everything.
> If my gf decides to go back to work as she has threatened than the baby will stay with me during the day and I will employ a nanny or even two if necessary.My daughter cannot sell the house until she is twenty five without my permission so my gf will not be homeless in any circumstances.


Do you love your girlfriend, Andy? Enough to share power with her? (Meaning, to be willing to hear No from her, without retribution?)


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Hearing "NO" is right in certain circumstances. Love needs to be removed from financial equations. Yes, you can love your wife or girlfriend, but still protect them from bad decisions and family members without being controlling. This isn't a normal arrangement where you BOTH made the money. You had all of this looked at by lawyers correct? Did you have it filed with the courts?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Do you love your girlfriend, Andy? Enough to share power with her? (Meaning, to be willing to hear No from her, without retribution?)


I'm not sure what you mean by retribution,do you mean would I try and manipulate her into getting my own way.Until I met J I had never loved anyone in a romantic way,reading this forum I realise that is not usual.When we broke up I thought that I would forget her in a few weeks but of course I didn't.In as much as I am capable of loving anyone I love J and she tells me she loves me.The love I feel for my unborn daughter is something that overwhelms me at times and I am probably far too protective of J because of this.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Hearing "NO" is right in certain circumstances. Love needs to be removed from financial equations. Yes, you can love your wife or girlfriend, but still protect them from bad decisions and family members without being controlling. This isn't a normal arrangement where you BOTH made the money. You had all of this looked at by lawyers correct? Did you have it filed with the courts?


Yes it is filed.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by retribution,do you mean would I try and manipulate her into getting my own way.Until I met J I had never loved anyone in a romantic way,reading this forum I realise that is not usual.When we broke up I thought that I would forget her in a few weeks but of course I didn't.In as much as I am capable of loving anyone I love J and she tells me she loves me.The love I feel for my unborn daughter is something that overwhelms me at times and I am probably far too protective of J because of this.


I am just wondering if you can hear No from her, if you can accept that.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I am just wondering if you can hear No from her, if you can accept that.


You added the weighted word retribution. He is right to be confused by your question and you not giving him a clear answer on what he said. What he has drawn up protects his right to see his child, to have input in the upbringing and if they do not marry he still remains in the child's life.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I am just wondering if you can hear No from her, if you can accept that.


I asked her to run the health centre, she said no and I accepted that.I didn't like it,I'm not used to being told no as you surmised on another thread but I did accept it.
I asked her to be a sahm and so far she is refusing but I'm hoping she changes her mind when the baby is born.If she goes back to work I will look after my daughter myself with the help of a nanny.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I asked her to run the health centre, she said no and I accepted that.I didn't like it,I'm not used to being told no as you surmised on another thread but I did accept it.
> I asked her to be a sahm and so far she is refusing but I'm hoping she changes her mind when the baby is born.If she goes back to work I will look after my daughter myself with the help of a nanny.


You have some wonderful qualities, Andy, sadly rare ones in this day and age.

I just think that in marriage it is very important, as far as is reasonably possible, to get buy-in from a partner, rather than resorting to strongarming.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> Are you serious?!? What's so horrible about tattoos? I think that's fantastic about how she wants to support her friend, and this by no means shows that she's choosing you over her, and you're not very nice to make her choose who is more important: her friend or you. Personally, I don't blame her one bit for being furious; it's her body, and she can choose to put a tattoo on it if she would like to do that. I haven't read any of the replies so far, and won't get through them all, but am curious to see if the wedding actually went through!


Not everyone likes tattoos.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I asked her to run the health centre, she said no and I accepted that.I didn't like it,I'm not used to being told no as you surmised on another thread but I did accept it.
> I asked her to be a sahm and so far she is refusing but I'm hoping she changes her mind when the baby is born.If she goes back to work I will look after my daughter myself with the help of a nanny.


Come on Andy we all know you two are going to get married so when is the wedding.Im still waiting for your answer to my other question how much was the ring.


----------



## Ursula

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

True, but there are so many worse things that could be happening. She could be a child abuser, a drug addict, a porn addict, a pathological liar, etc. If a person really puts it into perspective, a tattoo doesn't sound so awful now, does it? I personally don't mind tattoos, unless someone is tatted up on most of their body. However, on the flip-side, if I were single, and found the most amazing man who wanted (or already had) children, who shared my life goals and values, who knew respect, understanding, honesty and loyalty, and was a really good match for me, I would most certainly overlook those tats! Tattoos don't make a person, nor do they change a person's personality or innate sense of being.



Diana7 said:


> Not everyone likes tattoos.


----------



## Ursula

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I've only read a small portion of the posts on this hot topic of tattoos, but I just have a question for you Andy. You gave up a relationship with your fiance because you don't like tattoos and she wanted to get one? And she's pregnant with your child now?



Andy1001 said:


> I asked her to run the health centre, she said no and I accepted that.I didn't like it,I'm not used to being told no as you surmised on another thread but I did accept it.
> I asked her to be a sahm and so far she is refusing but I'm hoping she changes her mind when the baby is born.If she goes back to work I will look after my daughter myself with the help of a nanny.


----------



## CharlieParker

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> I would most certainly overlook those tats!


People are different, I would not overlook any children, deal breaker. (Now if I could attract a woman of child bearing age... just kidding, no go.)


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You need to read on they got back together but he won't allow her the tattoo


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Ok I'll play along I earn eighty thousand euro a year.The reason I like your story is because it proves that even rich people can be brought down to earth by women.


If you earn eighty grand a year in Ireland that's about eighty five thousand dollars.Two years savings would buy a ring that"guys like me"buy their girlfriends.Happy now!


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> You need to read on they got back together but he won't allow her the tattoo


I didn't stop my then fiancée from getting a tattoo,let's get that off the table to start with.I told her I wouldn't be marrying her if she got one.She can choose to do whatever she wants with her body,I can choose if I want to live with her.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> If you earn eighty grand a year in Ireland that's about eighty five thousand dollars.Two years savings would buy a ring that"guys like me"buy their girlfriends.Happy now!


Oh, God! :slap:

Please tell me it isn't some pretty monstrosity that will catch on , snag, and scratch everything from the baby to her nylons to the upholstery and make practical use of her left hand nearly impossible while wearing it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Oh, God! :slap:
> 
> Please tell me it isn't some pretty monstrosity that will catch on , snag, and scratch everything from the baby to her nylons to the upholstery and make practical use of her left hand nearly impossible while wearing it.


When she gave it back to me I threw it in the lake.That is why I was wondering if I should get a different one if we get engaged again.It was made especially for her so I can get the exact same one made if necessary.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> When she gave it back to me I threw it in the lake.That is why I was wondering if I should get a different one if we get engaged again.It was made especially for her so I can get the exact same one made if necessary.


Aww, hon, I'm sorry there was some drama. I miss some parts of your thread. Sometimes, due to how long it is, I can't see the last pages and have to adjust my settings to show newest first and then adjust back. Some posts slip through the cracks.

If you do become engaged again, maybe the same design wouldn't be a good idea. Kind of like a jinx, if you will. New beginning, new ring design. Casually, over time, find out what she liked about it and what she didn't. Then you can design something new. Always keep in mind, though, that she will be wearing the ring every day, all day, during various tasks so you want something that won't catch, snag, or scratch. If you work with the jeweler who makes your ring for you, I'm sure he or she will be able to offer suggestions so that you can have something with both form and function.

***ETA***

Read the posts I missed.

Ok, so you moved in together without getting engaged again. Got it. Yeah, I'd go with a different ring.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Your thread seems to have disappeared I can't see the last few pages


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> I've only read a small portion of the posts on this hot topic of tattoos, but I just have a question for you Andy. You gave up a relationship with your fiance because you don't like tattoos and she wanted to get one? And she's pregnant with your child now?


When we broke up I didn't know J(my ex fiancée) was pregnant and neither did she.I'm not the sort of man who would abandon a woman pregnant with my child.We got dna testing at Js insistence and the baby is mine and I promised her I would look after her.Whether we had got back together or not I intended to keep that promise.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Your thread seems to have disappeared I can't see the last few pages


Maybe you will stop asking me stupid ****in questions then.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> True, but there are so many worse things that could be happening. She could be a child abuser, a drug addict, a porn addict, a pathological liar, etc. If a person really puts it into perspective, a tattoo doesn't sound so awful now, does it? I personally don't mind tattoos, unless someone is tatted up on most of their body. However, on the flip-side, if I were single, and found the most amazing man who wanted (or already had) children, who shared my life goals and values, who knew respect, understanding, honesty and loyalty, and was a really good match for me, I would most certainly overlook those tats! Tattoos don't make a person, nor do they change a person's personality or innate sense of being.


If you want to dance buck naked in the middle of time square with a man tattooed from head to toe in a tribute to Harry Potter then my attitude is go for it.I don't tell anyone how to live their lives and I don't let anyone tell me how to live mine.
I hate tattoos and I refuse to marry someone with them or the intent to get some.End of story.


----------



## manwithnoname

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> If you want to dance buck naked in the middle of time square with a man tattooed from head to toe in a tribute to Harry Potter then my attitude is go for it.I don't tell anyone how to live their lives and I don't let anyone tell me how to live mine.
> *I hate tattoos and I refuse to marry someone with them or the intent to get some.End of story*.


This has been a constant since the beginning of the thread. Unbelievable that people still try to change someone's mind on an issue that he's very adamant about, with their own ideals.

The bolded section also takes care of the ring dilemma... you don't need one.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> You have some wonderful qualities, Andy, sadly rare ones in this day and age.
> 
> I just think that in marriage it is very important, as far as is reasonably possible, to get buy-in from a partner, rather than resorting to strongarming.


I've been thinking about what you said in the second part of your post and I'm not quite sure what you meant.Do you mean would I try to force J into doing what I want?I don't honestly think I'm like that but I may be wrong.Before and after Christmas We did a bit of traveling,weekend trips with her and the boy and some overnights with just the two of us.My friend Alison looked after the boy those nights.We went to London,Amsterdam and Tokyo.I let J loose in the shopping districts and I brought the boy to football matches in London And Amsterdam.I had tickets for a guns and roses concert in Tokyo but J didn't want to go or let her son come,I went however.I also brought her to a classical music concert and for sitting through that I deserve a medal.I did have an ulterior motive though,I wanted her to realise that if she goes back working then these trips can't happen as often.I know that is a type of manipulation but there are probably worse things in the world.The trips had to stop when the baby's arrival came nearer.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I've been thinking about what you said in the second part of your post and I'm not quite sure what you meant.Do you mean would I try to force J into doing what I want?I don't honestly think I'm like that but I may be wrong.Before and after Christmas We did a bit of traveling,weekend trips with her and the boy and some overnights with just the two of us.My friend Alison looked after the boy those nights.We went to London,Amsterdam and Tokyo.I let J loose in the shopping districts and I brought the boy to football matches in London And Amsterdam.I had tickets for a guns and roses concert in Tokyo but J didn't want to go or let her son come,I went however.I also brought her to a Bruno Mars concert and for sitting through that I deserve a medal.I did have an ulterior motive though,I wanted her to realise that if she goes back working then these trips can't happen as often.I know that is a type of manipulation but there are probably worse things in the world.The trips had to stop when the baby's arrival came nearer.


I don't get the feeling that the power is split evenly in your relationship. And while that may not seem like a problem to you now, I think it could later.

Andy, don't you want her love and buy in to come from her heart, because she sees you truly have good, helpful ideas for her and the baby, rather than her fear of what may happen if she does not conform to your will?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I don't get the feeling that the power is split evenly in your relationship. And while that may not seem like a problem to you now, I think it could later.
> 
> Andy, don't you want her love and buy in to come from her heart, because she sees you truly have good, helpful ideas for her and the baby, rather than her fear of what may happen if she does not conform to your will?


But what is she afraid of.This is the part I don't understand.By the way It wasn't a Bruno Mars gig it was a classic music concert.She was talking about Bruno Mars new tour last night and I misprinted.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> But what is she afraid of.This is the part I don't understand.By the way It wasn't a Bruno Mars gig it was a classic music concert.She was talking about Bruno Mars new tour last night and I misprinted.


Maybe she is not afraid of anything. I don't know.

But the way you have things locked up so tightly does not seem to give her much true freedom. Can you see that?

Put yourself in her shoes once. Or imagine that we lived in a world where mothers had sole control over their children until they were 18. Fathers would only have influence, but not actual rights. How would your actions be different?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Maybe she is not afraid of anything. I don't know.
> 
> But the way you have things locked up so tightly does not seem to give her much true freedom. Can you see that?
> 
> Put yourself in her shoes once. Or imagine that we lived in a world where mothers had sole control over their children until they were 18. Fathers would only have influence, but not actual rights. How would your actions be different?


You have asked me some good questions here and I am going to think about them for a while.I appreciate you taking the time to post on my thread,I'm sure you have better things to do.I thought this thread was finished with in December but people are still reading it apparently.At the risk of repeating myself we are not fighting in any way,the only sticking point is Js insisting she wants to work after the baby comes.She wants to earn her own money but refuses to accept mine.Not a normal situation I think.lol.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You have asked me some good questions here and I am going to think about them for a while.I appreciate you taking the time to post on my thread,I'm sure you have better things to do.I thought this thread was finished with in December but people are still reading it apparently.At the risk of repeating myself we are not fighting in any way,the only sticking point is Js insisting she wants to work after the baby comes.She wants to earn her own money but refuses to accept mine.Not a normal situation I think.lol.


To answer the first part of your question I can see that J may be bored doing nothing but is that not true of every woman coming close to childbirth.Her career is in health and fitness but she can't really workout much at over eight months pregnant.As for freedom she has all the time in the world to do whatever she wants.We both swim every day and take long walks whatever the weather.We are working our way through every restaurant in Massachusetts for lunch it seems.lol.She doesn't have to do any housework or laundry and she cooks dinner because she wants to not because she has to.When the baby comes she can be more active and this will help her I think,she is used to spending hours training every day so has a lot of energy normally.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> To answer the first part of your question I can see that J may be bored doing nothing but is that not true of every woman coming close to childbirth.Her career is in health and fitness but she can't really workout much at over eight months pregnant.As for freedom she has all the time in the world to do whatever she wants.We both swim every day and take long walks whatever the weather.We are working our way through every restaurant in Massachusetts for lunch it seems.lol.She doesn't have to do any housework or laundry and she cooks dinner because she wants to not because she has to.When the baby comes she can be more active and this will help her I think,she is used to spending hours training every day so has a lot of energy normally.


I did not really mean right now. 

Andy, have you heard the expression _like a bird in a gilded cage_?


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Here is something else for you to think about. Imagine your daughter were pregnant with the child of a wealthy man, and that he had custody agreements drawn up identical to the ones you have. 

How would you feel about him? 

What advice would you give her?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I did not really mean right now.
> 
> Andy, have you heard the expression _like a bird in a gilded cage_?


Now I understand what you mean.She is not a prisoner and if she wants to leave me I wouldn't try to stop her.I want to be involved fully in my daughters life and I want J with me.I can't control what J wants but I can,and will if necessary control what happens with my child in regards to my involvement in her life.
You are a sahm mom so I assume Dug is the breadwinner,do you have any problem accepting that.I ask only from a financial viewpoint,I know both of you work very hard in different ways.
Now I'm off to the dentist lol.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Now I understand what you mean.She is not a prisoner and if she wants to leave me I wouldn't try to stop her.I want to be involved fully in my daughters life and I want J with me.I can't control what J wants but *I can,and will if necessary control what happens with my child in regards to my involvement in her life.* You are a sahm mom so I assume Dug is the breadwinner,do you have any problem accepting that.I ask only from a financial viewpoint,I know both of you work very hard in different ways.
> Now I'm off to the dentist lol.


The bolded is not wise, Andy. 

I very much admire your financial commitment to your gf and her son. Providing for his family is one of the signs of a mature man, imo.

But it is not wise to be controlling. I doubt you would ever want your own daughter to accept the conditions you demand of your gf in that custody agreement. 

You would want her to have her freedom, and to be respected. You would want her and the father of her child to work out an agreement that is respectful to everyone involved, and in particular any vulnerable parties, not protective of only the father's interests. Is that not true?


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> When we broke up I didn't know J(my ex fiancée) was pregnant and neither did she.I'm not the sort of man who would abandon a woman pregnant with my child.We got dna testing at Js insistence and the baby is mine and I promised her I would look after her.Whether we had got back together or not I intended to keep that promise.


Andy1001, looking after a woman is about more than seeing to her basic physical needs (food, water, shelter, etc.) and her basic emotional needs (love, companionship, etc). Wimmenz be complimicated!

Women, like men, need to feel they contribute, are useful, are necessary, even. If she has nothing much that she has to do, she might be feeling like less than a contributing member of society and family. If she's still energetic at this stage of pregnancy, she might be feeling a frustrated need to burn off some of her energy, too. Part of taking care of her might mean making sure she has things to do that make her feel necessary to the family you're building and give her a sense of accomplishment.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

As to my own personal situation . . . 

Yes, I am completely financially dependent on my husband. It is a vulnerable place to be. 

But he does not try to control me in any way. As much as he wanted me to breastfeed and homeschool our children, and to have several of them, he never would have forced or threatened me. 

He explained why he wanted those things and I saw the value of his position. I am really, really glad for the vision he presented to me so long ago. Our family has benefited greatly from it.

_But I was not coerced._

I remember getting mad at Dug once, telling him if we got divorced, I was entitled to half of everything. 

You know his response? "You deserve all of it."

I did not know what to say. I felt so ashamed, getting mad at him like that, when he loved me so. Nothing to do then but go him, wrap my arms around him, and tell him how sorry I was for saying such a mean thing.

I sense you are scared, Andy. That is usually why people are controlling. But your daughter is not likely to thank you for it.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Andy1001, looking after a woman is about more than seeing to her basic physical needs (food, water, shelter, etc.) and her basic emotional needs (love, companionship, etc). Wimmenz be complimicated!
> 
> Women, like men, need to feel they contribute, are useful, are necessary, even. If she has nothing much that she has to do, she might be feeling like less than a contributing member of society and family. If she's still energetic at this stage of pregnancy, she might be feeling a frustrated need to burn off some of her energy, too. Part of taking care of her might mean making sure she has things to do that make her feel necessary to the family you're building and give her a sense of accomplishment.


I don't think she trusts him.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I can't control what J wants but I can,and will if necessary control what happens with my child in regards to my involvement in her life.


People see the word "control" and freak out. I was a single parent for a time, you are 100% correct in this sentence and do not second guess yourself on this point. No, controlling your involvement with your child is important if things go sideways. As you said, you can't control J.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Here is something else for you to think about. Imagine your daughter were pregnant with the child of a wealthy man, and that he had custody agreements drawn up identical to the ones you have.
> 
> How would you feel about him?
> 
> What advice would you give her?


My daughter will be very wealthy when she reaches adulthood and will not be dependent on any man to financially support her,she has a large inheritance from her grandparents coming her way.
But to answer your question I obviously don't see anything wrong with this arrangement as it was me who drew it up.This custody agreement was mainly to prevent Js mother from ever having any involvement in the rearing of my daughter.She threatened me that she would prevent me from seeing my baby but make sure I paid for everything,and with the amount of influence she had over J,I believed her.
When I read back over this thread it appears I come across as very controlling but I don't think I am,I think it's just the way I write.
I wish you would elaborate on your comment that J doesn't trust me.I have never cheated on her and believe me I get plenty of opportunities.When I bought her business I gave her enough money to live off for a few years and that was before I knew she was pregnant.If she doesn't want to stay with me she has a house that I paid for to live in so she won't be homeless.I will not try to prevent her from working after the baby comes even though I want her to be a sahm.I don't count the pennies,she can buy anything she wants but in fairness she tries to pay for her and her sons expenses even though I have made it clear I don't want her money.If she doesn't trust me then I have nothing left to offer.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My daughter will be very wealthy when she reaches adulthood and will not be dependent on any man to financially support her,she has a large inheritance from her grandparents coming her way.
> But to answer your question I obviously don't see anything wrong with this arrangement as it was me who drew it up.This custody agreement was mainly to prevent Js mother from ever having any involvement in the rearing of my daughter.She threatened me that she would prevent me from seeing my baby but make sure I paid for everything,and with the amount of influence she had over J,I believed her.
> When I read back over this thread it appears I come across as very controlling but I don't think I am,I think it's just the way I write.
> I wish you would elaborate on your comment that J doesn't trust me.I have never cheated on her and believe me I get plenty of opportunities.When I bought her business I gave her enough money to live off for a few years and that was before I knew she was pregnant.If she doesn't want to stay with me she has a house that I paid for to live in so she won't be homeless.I will not try to prevent her from working after the baby comes even though I want her to be a sahm.I don't count the pennies,she can buy anything she wants but in fairness she tries to pay for her and her sons expenses even though I have made it clear I don't want her money.If she doesn't trust me then I have nothing left to offer.


But imagine your daughter were not wealthy. Imagine you had only the resources your fil has and she had only the resources your gf has. How does it feel then? (Hint: think in terms of power imbalance)

It certainly could be that your gf is just a very independent woman. Some people are like that, no matter what their financial resources. I think they value their freedom more than any temptation of security.

Andy, trust is about way more than sexual fidelity, or a generous offering from a wealthy person. It is believing that someone respects you and will look out for your best interests even above their own. Can you honestly say that custody agreement does that?

The trust seems low on both sides. You do not trust her enough to believe that in a custody dispute you and she could overcome any differences and find a mutually satisfying agreement. Instead, you believe her mother would take over and you sought to protect yourself from that, going over your gf's head, so to speak. How would that make her trust you?

How does your gf feel about that custody agreement, btw? Does she have her own lawyer?

Sorry to be hard on you, btw. I certainly do not know your gf, and to be perfectly honest, have not read all of your thread. I can only give you my impressions, which of course are worth what you pay for them.

As I said earlier, you have some very admirable qualities. And that has nothing to do with your wealth, Andy. Any man that provides for women and children just because he knows it is the right thing to do has my respect. Way too few men like that anymore.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> But imagine your daughter were not wealthy. Imagine you had only the resources your fil has and she had only the resources your gf has. How does it feel then? (Hint: think in terms of power imbalance)
> 
> It certainly could be that your gf is just a very independent woman. Some people are like that, no matter what their financial resources. I think they value their freedom more than any temptation of security.
> 
> Andy, trust is about way more than sexual fidelity, or a generous offering from a wealthy person. It is believing that someone respects you and will look out for your best interests even above their own. Can you honestly say that custody agreement does that?
> 
> The trust seems low on both sides. You do not trust her enough to believe that in a custody dispute you and she could overcome any differences and find a mutually satisfying agreement. Instead, you believe her mother would take over and you sought to protect yourself from that, going over your gf's head, so to speak. How would that make her trust you?
> 
> How does your gf feel about that custody agreement, btw? Does she have her own lawyer?
> 
> Sorry to be hard on you, btw. I certainly do not know your gf, and to be perfectly honest, have not read all of your thread. I can only give you my impressions, which of course are worth what you pay for them.
> 
> As I said earlier, you have some very admirable qualities. And that has nothing to do with your wealth, Andy. Any man that provides for women and children just because he knows it is the right thing to do has my respect. Way too few men like that anymore.


When we drew up the custody agreement it was a mutual decision.I asked J to get her own lawyer to look it over but her answer was she knew I would never do anything to hurt her or our baby.There was never any question about going over her head or behind her back.I am not some sort of monster who would try to keep J away from the baby but I've been reading this and other forums since last year and it seems to be a common occurrence that mothers get most of the time with the children and cause endless problems for fathers trying to see them.One poster messaged me privately about his wife's mother calling the cops and having him removed from the family home when he came to see his kids after he and his wife separated due to her infidelity,he hadn't even got out of his car when the cops arrived and she said he had hit her.He was arrested and is fighting the case through the courts but is not allowed to see his kids until it is sorted out.I don't think J would do this but her mother would without a doubt.
Her mother hasn't spoken to her in months,not even to thank her for bailing her father when he had a dui,her sisters speak to me because they work for me but they don't call around or even ring J,they are too scared of their mother.I do not want my daughter to have anything to do with such a toxic woman but if she reaches out J will make up with her.Her mothers greatest wish would be to have J come home and let her have the childminder duties while J goes back to work.Of course she would have to be paid and guess who would be paying.
This will never happen.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Look Andy, trust and custody are two separate things in your situation. While everything being stated is true, it is a false comparison. No, you weren't perfect, but you both had your relationship ending rules in place. Nope, it doesn't matter if it was a Tattoo or a DUI, it is what you each agreed to when you decided to date and head towards marriage.

I was a single father, at one time, who dealt with issues others many not, in no WAY would I even imply the custody arrangement is unfair. When you have all your kids in wedlock, it is impossible to see or experience the ups and down of co-parenting. The court system has become better, but trusting it and someone who broke your boundaries a few times is not the smart way to go. If you marry, I'd agree with most of the questions made about the custody agreement and you should consider a complete removal or modification. Until then, I read your thread, there are reasons to change other behaviors, but not the custody arrangement. If it leads to you being separated an unmarried, she made some boundary crossing choices which led to this situation.

Custody can be ugly and it would be better for the child if there is a plan in place so, if the relationship ends there is very little change.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> When we drew up the custody agreement it was a mutual decision.I asked J to get her own lawyer to look it over but *her answer was she knew I would never do anything to hurt her or our baby*.


Okay, this sounds good. Her answer definitely indicates trust. 

With that in mind, though, I am surprised she is not willing to marry you. Or is it a mutual reluctance to make that commitment? Why?



> There was never any question about going over her head or behind her back.I am not some sort of monster who would try to keep J away from the baby but I've been reading this and other forums since last year and it seems to be a common occurrence that mothers get most of the time with the children and cause endless problems for fathers trying to see them.One poster messaged me privately about his wife's mother calling the cops and having him removed from the family home when he came to see his kids after he and his wife separated due to her infidelity,he hadn't even got out of his car when the cops arrived and she said he had hit her.He was arrested and is fighting the case through the courts but is not allowed to see his kids until it is sorted out.


Glad to hear your motive is not to have sole control of any decisions regarding your child. Just as you have heard of fathers not getting to see their children, I have heard the same about mothers. Some abusive men will do just about anything to keep mothers from their children.



> I don't think J would do this but her mother would without a doubt.
> Her mother hasn't spoken to her in months,not even to thank her for bailing her father when he had a dui,her sisters speak to me because they work for me but they don't call around or even ring J,they are too scared of their mother.I do not want my daughter to have anything to do with such a toxic woman but if she reaches out J will make up with her.Her mothers greatest wish would be to have J come home and let her have the childminder duties while J goes back to work.Of course she would have to be paid and guess who would be paying.
> This will never happen.


If you are good to J, I think her mother may eventually come around. No promises, but time has a way of healing wounds. Then again, some people are very stubborn . . .

So is the concern right now just that your gf will not accept being a sahm? And you have a backup plan for that? Is she okay with it? 

Okay, one more question, because I don't think you really answered it. Your gf's willingness in your own situation aside, would you want your own daughter to accept the exact same custody agreement, all the circumstances being identical?

You're a smart businessman, Andy. I just cannot see you advising your daughter that way.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

While you are thinking Andy, remember this, did you force her or threaten her in any way to sign this document?


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Okay, this sounds good. Her answer definitely indicates trust.
> 
> With that in mind, though, I am surprised she is not willing to marry you. Or is it a mutual reluctance to make that commitment? Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear your motive is not to have sole control of any decisions regarding your child. Just as you have heard of fathers not getting to see their children, I have heard the same about mothers. Some abusive men will do just about anything to keep mothers from their children.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are good to J, I think her mother may eventually come around. No promises, but time has a way of healing wounds. Then again, some people are very stubborn . . .
> 
> So is the concern right now just that your gf will not accept being a sahm? And you have a backup plan for that? Is she okay with it?
> 
> Okay, one more question, because I don't think you really answered it. Your gf's willingness in your own situation aside, would you want your own daughter to accept the exact same custody agreement, all the circumstances being identical?
> 
> You're a smart businessman, Andy. I just cannot see you advising your daughter that way.


It was him who cancelled the wedding not her.Ithink she wants to marry him but he doesn't want to


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Okay, this sounds good. Her answer definitely indicates trust.
> 
> With that in mind, though, I am surprised she is not willing to marry you. Or is it a mutual reluctance to make that commitment? Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear your motive is not to have sole control of any decisions regarding your child. Just as you have heard of fathers not getting to see their children, I have heard the same about mothers. Some abusive men will do just about anything to keep mothers from their children.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are good to J, I think her mother may eventually come around. No promises, but time has a way of healing wounds. Then again, some people are very stubborn . . .
> 
> So is the concern right now just that your gf will not accept being a sahm? And you have a backup plan for that? Is she okay with it?
> 
> Okay, one more question, because I don't think you really answered it. Your gf's willingness in your own situation aside, would you want your own daughter to accept the exact same custody agreement, all the circumstances being identical?
> 
> You're a smart businessman, Andy. I just cannot see you advising your daughter that way.


It was him who cancelled the wedding not her.Ithink she wants to marry him but he doesn't want to


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> While you are thinking Andy, remember this, did you force her or threaten her in any way to sign this document?


I never forced her to do anything.When I finally had enough of her mother manipulating J and trying to manipulate me it caused a big fight.This finally blew up when it was the boy's birthday and we had made plans for an afternoon at a water park.Js mother called while J was on her way to my house and told her to come over there instead.Js mother had thrown her and her son out at this stage and there had been no contact for a while.When J called me I insisted we carried on with our day out and told her to tell her mother she would call over later.When we were at the park it started raining heavily and the indoor attractions were packed so the boy asked me could we go to my house and swim in my pool and of course I agreed.(They weren't living with me then)J texted her mother to meet us at my house and she immediately started *****ing about the rain and how she didn't want to be by the pool in the rain.J explained that I have an indoor pool and for some reason that really pissed her off.She asked J for a hundred thousand dollars for house repairs and J refused to give it to her and she stormed out,she met my friend Ally on the road and threw a few homophobic insults at her for good measure.I rang her and she started screaming at me and that's when she threatened me with preventing me from seeing the baby.
J and me had a long discussion that night and it became obvious that J was intimidated by her mother and we decided there and then to draw up the custody agreement just in case anything happened to J.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Okay, this sounds good. Her answer definitely indicates trust.
> 
> With that in mind, though, I am surprised she is not willing to marry you. Or is it a mutual reluctance to make that commitment? Why?
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear your motive is not to have sole control of any decisions regarding your child. Just as you have heard of fathers not getting to see their children, I have heard the same about mothers. Some abusive men will do just about anything to keep mothers from their children.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are good to J, I think her mother may eventually come around. No promises, but time has a way of healing wounds. Then again, some people are very stubborn . . .
> 
> So is the concern right now just that your gf will not accept being a sahm? And you have a backup plan for that? Is she okay with it?
> 
> Okay, one more question, because I don't think you really answered it. Your gf's willingness in your own situation aside, would you want your own daughter to accept the exact same custody agreement, all the circumstances being identical?
> 
> You're a smart businessman, Andy. I just cannot see you advising your daughter that way.


First of all,J would marry me tomorrow if I agreed.That is not bragging,it is one hundred per cent true.
I called off the wedding when we had the fight over the tattoo but it had been building up for a few months.You may find this hard to believe but this was our first fight in five years of dating.We have had a few since though.I had a lot on my mind at that stage and had just finalised the biggest deal of my life and I was letting J walk over me a little.She was pushing and pushing and I finally flipped and went nuclear.She told me afterwards that she thought I was cheating on her but the woman she thought I was cheating with is gay and has been my best friend for over twelve years.She fully accepts that I was not cheating on her and is now very close friends with Alison.(my gay friend)
The main reason that I haven't asked her to get married again is the work situation.If she refuses to work for me then she will have to commute or else give up her career and do something else.I would not ask her to give up a career she loves to do some minimum wage job.If she commutes then we are talking about her being gone for at least twelve hours a day and maybe more.I only work a couple of hours each day and I am finished by five am so I will look after my daughter.I would not be able to accept my wife gone for so long each day and don't see any sense in it.
I really am being honest when I say I would agree with the custody arrangement in any circumstances.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> First of all,J would marry me tomorrow if I agreed.That is not bragging,it is one hundred per cent true.
> I called off the wedding when we had the fight over the tattoo but it had been building up for a few months.You may find this hard to believe but this was our first fight in five years of dating.We have had a few since though.I had a lot on my mind at that stage and had just finalised the biggest deal of my life and I was letting J walk over me a little.She was pushing and pushing and I finally flipped and went nuclear.She told me afterwards that she thought I was cheating on her but the woman she thought I was cheating with is gay and has been my best friend for over twelve years.She fully accepts that I was not cheating on her and is now very close friends with Alison.(my gay friend)
> The main reason that I haven't asked her to get married again is the work situation.If she refuses to work for me then she will have to commute or else give up her career and do something else.I would not ask her to give up a career she loves to do some minimum wage job.If she commutes then we are talking about her being gone for at least twelve hours a day and maybe more.I only work a couple of hours each day and I am finished by five am so I will look after my daughter.I would not be able to accept my wife gone for so long each day and don't see any sense in it.
> I really am being honest when I say I would agree with the custody arrangement in any circumstances.


My point with asking you if you would advise your daughter to sign such an agreement is that it hands a lot of power to the father. And if she would ever not feel she could fully trust him to act in her or the baby's best interests, she may find she has little legal recourse.

Andy, I have to say, you have good values. A SAHM can be a real gift to a child. And I really do hope your child will be homeschooled. It is another gift to a child, at least ime.

I am a little hesitant to comment further because I have not read the thread. You may have already explained some of these things. I am sure it is tedious to have to repeat them.

I will say, though, that it sounds like J may be a little immature. Beautiful girl, no doubt. But maybe lacking a little in understanding what is really important in life. Jmo.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> My point with asking you if you would advise your daughter to sign such an agreement is that it hands a lot of power to the father. And if she would ever not feel she could fully trust him to act in her or the baby's best interests, she may find she has little legal recourse.
> 
> Andy, I have to say, you have good values. A SAHM can be a real gift to a child. And I really do hope your child will be homeschooled. It is another gift to a child, at least ime.
> 
> I am a little hesitant to comment further because I have not read the thread. You may have already explained some of these things. I am sure it is tedious to have to repeat them.
> 
> I will say, though, that it sounds like J may be a little immature. Beautiful girl, no doubt. But maybe lacking a little in understanding what is really important in life. Jmo.


The biggest difference in J and me is independence.We are both thirty two and funnily enough we both have birthdays this month.I have lived over half my life in my own house or with roommates,J has lived less than two months without me or her family around her.This will sound unbelievable but until about four months ago J had never cooked for me,her mother did all the cooking at home and we used to eat out every day.I can cook simple meals and often cooked for both of us.I'm not complaining here I'm just stating a fact.I get up so early that by lunchtime I am starving and have my main meal then and J is one of these people who eat four or five light meals every day rather than one or two large meals.
She ran her own business successfully for a few years but then made a couple of bad decisions and lost it.She isn't the first person that this happened to and won't be the last.If we had been still together I would have sorted it out but because we had split up I knew nothing about it until it was too late.I did buy it to save her from bankruptcy and the business has taken off so much since I bought it that it is now running twenty four seven.I offered her the managers job on a few occasions but she refused and I have told her that I may sell.A multi chain has offered me four times what I paid for it in the last couple of weeks and I am seriously thinking of selling.I don't want the hassle of owning it any more and J doesn't want to run it.If I thought she would accept I would split the profit with her but I know she won't.This is my biggest problem with J.It is probably my own fault but I can't understand turning down a couple of million dollars,preferring to work some minimum wage job.
Anyway the baby is due within a month and then we will see what happens.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The biggest difference in J and me is independence.We are both thirty two and funnily enough we both have birthdays this month.I have lived over half my life in my own house or with roommates,J has lived less than two months without me or her family around her.This will sound unbelievable but until about four months ago J had never cooked for me,her mother did all the cooking at home and we used to eat out every day.I can cook simple meals and often cooked for both of us.I'm not complaining here I'm just stating a fact.I get up so early that by lunchtime I am starving and have my main meal then and J is one of these people who eat four or five light meals every day rather than one or two large meals.
> She ran her own business successfully for a few years but then made a couple of bad decisions and lost it.She isn't the first person that this happened to and won't be the last.If we had been still together I would have sorted it out but because we had split up I knew nothing about it until it was too late.I did buy it to save her from bankruptcy and the business has taken off so much since I bought it that it is now running twenty four seven.I offered her the managers job on a few occasions but she refused and I have told her that I may sell.A multi chain has offered me four times what I paid for it in the last couple of weeks and I am seriously thinking of selling.I don't want the hassle of owning it any more and J doesn't want to run it.If I thought she would accept I would split the profit with her but I know she won't.This is my biggest problem with J.It is probably my own fault but *I can't understand turning down a couple of million dollars,preferring to work some minimum wage job.*
> Anyway the baby is due within a month and then we will see what happens.


You two are funny, Andy. If only we all had such problems. 

Your little family will be okay. I see a happy future ahead.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> You two are funny, Andy. If only we all had such problems.
> 
> Your little family will be okay. I see a happy future ahead.


I get this a lot even from professional counsellors,once they realise who I am their attitude changes.I'm kinda sorry I mentioned the money in the last post but I want to get honest opinions so there is no point lying.I was told once by my Dad that if I bought a thousand donkeys then within a week donkeys would become the most valuable animal in the world.He was talking about how everything I do seems to succeed beyond anyone's expectations.It's the same with Js old business,six months ago it was bankrupt now it is worth a fortune and I can't claim any credit except for hiring the best person I could to run it for me.What I could get by selling it would seem a lot to most people but I really couldn't care less.
First world problems I think.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I get this a lot even from professional counsellors,once they realise who I am their attitude changes.I'm kinda sorry I mentioned the money in the last post but I want to get honest opinions so there is no point lying.I was told once by my Dad that if I bought a thousand donkeys then within a week donkeys would become the most valuable animal in the world.He was talking about how everything I do seems to succeed beyond anyone's expectations.It's the same with Js old business,six months ago it was bankrupt now it is worth a fortune and I can't claim any credit except for hiring the best person I could to run it for me.What I could get by selling it would seem a lot to most people but I really couldn't care less.
> First world problems I think.


Top tenth of one percent world problems, I think. 

Do you do any charity work?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Top tenth of one percent world problems, I think.
> 
> Do you do any charity work?


I give a ton of money to charity every year and I have paid for the training of so many seeing eye dogs that I've lost count of them.I get to name them and it gives me a kick to do that.I name them after people I know and some people love it and some feel insulted.
As for actual charity work I did try and teach some IT skills to people that call into a shelter in town but it didn't work out.I used to accompany a friend of mine who is an addiction counsellor for a homeless charity but it was getting too dangerous,I am well trained in martial arts but if someone has a gun,that's not a lot of use.We got threatened too many times so we stopped doing house calls.Pretty ironic doing house calls for a homeless charity but it was mainly squatters.
Anyway it's been great talking to you today,you are a very intelligent and interesting woman.I have been summoned for chauffeur duties by the boy,he wants his weekly McDonald's fix so I have to go.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I give a ton of money to charity every year and I have paid for the training of so many seeing eye dogs that I've lost count of them.I get to name them and it gives me a kick to do that.I name them after people I know and some people love it and some feel insulted.
> As for actual charity work I did try and teach some IT skills to people that call into a shelter in town but it didn't work out.I used to accompany a friend of mine who is an addiction counsellor for a homeless charity but it was getting too dangerous,I am well trained in martial arts but if someone has a gun,that's not a lot of use.We got threatened too many times so we stopped doing house calls.Pretty ironic doing house calls for a homeless charity but it was mainly squatters.
> Anyway it's been great talking to you today,you are a very intelligent and interesting woman.I have been summoned for chauffeur duties by the boy,he wants his weekly McDonald's fix so I have to go.


Thanks, Andy. Good to talk to you, too. 

One way you might best be able to help charities is with your Midas touch business sense. Not all charities are well run, you know? They could benefit from your experience and insight. There is a woman here, @MrsHolland, who does that, I believe.

Well, that's just an idea for you. Enjoy your time out with your little guy tonight.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I never forced her to do anything.
> J and me had a long discussion that night and it became obvious that J was intimidated by her mother and we decided there and then to draw up the custody agreement just in case anything happened to J.


I think you see where I am heading. She is an adult and made a CHOICE to sign this document. She was included in the process and agreed to the terms. She could have said no at any time. Honestly, minus the house and Inheritance stuff, it sounds like boiler plate 50/50 custody which is standard in many states. Yes, for those who haven't dealt with child support and custody where you move, distance apart, schooling, work schedule and the amount of time spent with each parent is covered in the basics. Yes, even moving out of state and miles can be covered.


----------



## NotEasy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I never forced her to do anything.When I finally had enough of her mother manipulating J and trying to manipulate me it caused a big fight.This finally blew up when it was the boy's birthday and we had made plans for an afternoon at a water park.Js mother called while J was on her way to my house and told her to come over there instead.Js mother had thrown her and her son out at this stage and there had been no contact for a while.When J called me I insisted we carried on with our day out and told her to tell her mother she would call over later.When we were at the park it started raining heavily and the indoor attractions were packed so the boy asked me could we go to my house and swim in my pool and of course I agreed.(They weren't living with me then)J texted her mother to meet us at my house and she immediately started *****ing about the rain and how she didn't want to be by the pool in the rain.J explained that I have an indoor pool and for some reason that really pissed her off.She asked J for a hundred thousand dollars for house repairs and J refused to give it to her and she stormed out,she met my friend Ally on the road and threw a few homophobic insults at her for good measure.I rang her and she started screaming at me and that's when she threatened me with preventing me from seeing the baby.
> J and me had a long discussion that night and it became obvious that J was intimidated by her mother and we decided there and then to draw up the custody agreement just in case anything happened to J.


Over 1000 posts into the thread and I finally begin to grasp your operating mode. You appeared very controlling, but this post gives a valid fear that you acted against. You were not seeking to control J, but to block her mother.

I don't think you are controlling as such, you operate differently and with more money.

HOWEVER the fact only became apparent after 1000 posts and before that several posters accused you of being controlling hints that the perception of you in real life may also be as controlling. In real life people (such as J) may not remember details of post 1053, instead they remember the louder 'statements' from toxic MIL. Volume often beats fine detail.

And the problem with this is that being seen as controlling can become the reality. You mentioned your writing makes you seem controlling. The mere existence of the custody agreement, seen through the perception that you are controlling, becomes a wedge between you and j. This is part of the reason I don't like such prenuptial agreements, they can be seen as controlling. In your case I think they are fair, but what is the perception? My point here is just to suggest you think about how things are being perceived.

This thread started because of differences in perception. You had a clear and agreed deal breaker with tattoos. I wonder if J forgot that or perceived it is not longer as important as her friend. 

It is hard to judge J's behaviour 2nd hand, but she seems like the gym was her way of trying to escape her mother and perhaps help her sisters escape too. She has lost her gym. If she works there as a manager she may feel she has little independence. And she may now see her pregnancy and future sahm role as a further loss of independence, she has escaped her mother but has a new jailer.

If you want J to be a sahm and home schooler and she wants an income, then perhaps pay her. Perhaps she would be happy with that. Sounds like you could pay more than she could easily earn nearby. Maybe 'demand' get job training, such as cooking lessons or learn how to home school. It is not normal, but what is normal in this thread.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



NotEasy said:


> Over 1000 posts into the thread and I finally begin to grasp your operating mode. You appeared very controlling, but this post gives a valid fear that you acted against. You were not seeking to control J, but to block her mother.
> 
> I don't think you are controlling as such, you operate differently and with more money.
> 
> HOWEVER the fact only became apparent after 1000 posts and before that several posters accused you of being controlling hints that the perception of you in real life may also be as controlling. In real life people (such as J) may not remember details of post 1053, instead they remember the louder 'statements' from toxic MIL. Volume often beats fine detail.
> 
> And the problem with this is that being seen as controlling can become the reality. You mentioned your writing makes you seem controlling. The mere existence of the custody agreement, seen through the perception that you are controlling, becomes a wedge between you and j. This is part of the reason I don't like such prenuptial agreements, they can be seen as controlling. In your case I think they are fair, but what is the perception? My point here is just to suggest you think about how things are being perceived.
> 
> This thread started because of differences in perception. You had a clear and agreed deal breaker with tattoos. I wonder if J forgot that or perceived it is not longer as important as her friend.
> 
> It is hard to judge J's behaviour 2nd hand, but she seems like the gym was her way of trying to escape her mother and perhaps help her sisters escape too. She has lost her gym. If she works there as a manager she may feel she has little independence. And she may now see her pregnancy and future sahm role as a further loss of independence, she has escaped her mother but has a new jailer.
> 
> If you want J to be a sahm and home schooler and she wants an income, then perhaps pay her. Perhaps she would be happy with that. Sounds like you could pay more than she could easily earn nearby. Maybe 'demand' get job training, such as cooking lessons or learn how to home school. It is not normal, but what is normal in this thread.


I thought this thread was finished at Christmas but it started up again and now I seem to be defending myself regularly.
If I thought J would accept it I would give her the gym back,that would solve most of my problems.I tried to give her money but she returned it.She hates the thought of being thought of as a gold digger or being tarred with the same brush as her mother.I can't win in this situation so all I can do is wait for the baby to arrive and take it from there.As it stands I will be paying a nanny roughly twice what J will earn if she commutes for work,I don't care about the money but the idea seems ridiculous to me.I may have one last throw of the dice.If I sell the gym the new owners may offer J a job and that would save on the commute at least.But again if she feels that I am pulling strings she may refuse,she can be a stubborn as a mule by times.
As for being controlling,the way I look at it is this.If no one takes charge then nothing gets done.If I had let things go on as they were J would be living at home with a toxic mother,passive aggressive sisters and a father that may as well be invisible,she would be expected to do all the household chores,she would be broke,bankrupt and pregnant.I can't help thinking that I'm doing everything humanly possible for her.Even the money she was left with when she sold the gym was down to me,I could have offered the bank just enough to cover the debts and they would have accepted it.She doesn't know this and I'm not going to tell her.
I am not sure where we are going in our relationship,I know what I want but I can't and won't force the issue.I won't marry J if she is going to be gone most of the time,we will just co parent.


----------



## wild jade

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

The thing about lots of money is that it gives a person a lot of power, largely because most people want a piece of the action. After a while, with all that power, a person might begin to think that they can just buy whatever they want, and that other people really should just do what they say because, well, that's how they want it. And if one person won't accommodate their wishes, why surely another will. Because money. 

That's what gives the impression of being controlling, IMHO. This idea that the money means that people should listen to you. And that your vision somehow is more important than others. 

Your girlfriend seems to challenge you on that. If only just a little tiny bit. If you don't marry her, you probably won't find many other people with that particular trait. Most Cinderellas would be happy just to be Cinderella to your Prince Charming.

So really, it depends on what you want out of life.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I thought this thread was finished at Christmas but it started up again and now I seem to be defending myself regularly.
> If I thought J would accept it I would give her the gym back,that would solve most of my problems.I tried to give her money but she returned it.She hates the thought of being thought of as a gold digger or being tarred with the same brush as her mother.I can't win in this situation so all I can do is wait for the baby to arrive and take it from there.As it stands I will be paying a nanny roughly twice what J will earn if she commutes for work,I don't care about the money but the idea seems ridiculous to me.I may have one last throw of the dice.If I sell the gym the new owners may offer J a job and that would save on the commute at least.But again if she feels that I am pulling strings she may refuse,she can be a stubborn as a mule by times.
> As for being controlling,the way I look at it is this.If no one takes charge then nothing gets done.If I had let things go on as they were J would be living at home with a toxic mother,passive aggressive sisters and a father that may as well be invisible,she would be expected to do all the household chores,she would be broke,bankrupt and pregnant.I can't help thinking that I'm doing everything humanly possible for her.Even the money she was left with when she sold the gym was down to me,I could have offered the bank just enough to cover the debts and they would have accepted it.She doesn't know this and I'm not going to tell her.
> I am not sure where we are going in our relationship,I know what I want but I can't and won't force the issue.I won't marry J if she is going to be gone most of the time,we will just co parent.


Andy you have done more for this girl than any other man would have,if she doesn't want to be with you at this point then break up with her.You have the custody agreement so you can see your daughter whenever you want.One question though,who is going to look after her son when she is working twelve hours a day.Does she expect you to do it.I still don't agree about the tattoo but that's your business.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



wild jade said:


> The thing about lots of money is that it gives a person a lot of power, largely because most people want a piece of the action. After a while, with all that power, a person might begin to think that they can just buy whatever they want, and that other people really should just do what they say because, well, that's how they want it. And if one person won't accommodate their wishes, why surely another will. Because money.
> 
> That's what gives the impression of being controlling, IMHO. This idea that the money means that people should listen to you. And that your vision somehow is more important than others.
> 
> Your girlfriend seems to challenge you on that. If only just a little tiny bit. If you don't marry her, you probably won't find many other people with that particular trait. Most Cinderellas would be happy just to be Cinderella to your Prince Charming.
> 
> So really, it depends on what you want out of life.


There are millions of beautiful women who would love his lifestyle and he should get one.


----------



## Ursula

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

And that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion, and I don't care if you agree with me or not to be honest. I just think it's incredibly sad that a person would let a true love slip away because of something so small in the grand scheme of things. True love doesn't happen often; hang onto it if you've got it. As to the bolded text; you've actually done this. You've asked your exGF not to get the tattoo, or else you won't marry her. I hope you're able to find someone who lives up to your standards, and God forbid they change even a bit. And, I hope your exGF finds someone to accept her for who she is.



Andy1001 said:


> If you want to dance buck naked in the middle of time square with a man tattooed from head to toe in a tribute to Harry Potter then my attitude is go for it.*I don't tell anyone how to live their lives* and I don't let anyone tell me how to live mine.
> I hate tattoos and I refuse to marry someone with them or the intent to get some.End of story.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> And that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion, and I don't care if you agree with me or not to be honest. I just think it's incredibly sad that a person would let a true love slip away because of something so small in the grand scheme of things. True love doesn't happen often; hang onto it if you've got it. As to the bolded text; you've actually done this. You've asked your exGF not to get the tattoo, or else you won't marry her. I hope you're able to find someone who lives up to your standards, and God forbid they change even a bit. And, I hope your exGF finds someone to accept her for who she is.


If you read more of this story she never wanted the tattoo at all but wanted to get back at him for flirting with her friends.He thinks he can buy everything but she won't let him


----------



## Ursula

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Oh okay, thanks for filling me in. I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time to read through 72 pages of a thread; it's a little long! If she wanted to get back at him for flirting and didn't really want the tat, that puts it in a totally different light. I don't understand what the last sentence means though. If this is the case of a "revenge tattoo", then I don't blame him one bit for leaving her. It's no longer an issue of a tattoo, but communication and maturity.



Robbie1234 said:


> If you read more of this story she never wanted the tattoo at all but wanted to get back at him for flirting with her friends.He thinks he can buy everything but she won't let him


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> And that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion, and I don't care if you agree with me or not to be honest. I just think it's incredibly sad that a person would let a true love slip away because of something so small in the grand scheme of things. True love doesn't happen often; hang onto it if you've got it. As to the bolded text; you've actually done this. You've asked your exGF not to get the tattoo, or else you won't marry her. I hope you're able to find someone who lives up to your standards, and God forbid they change even a bit. And, I hope your exGF finds someone to accept her for who she is.


I have explained this before but I will do it again.I don't just dislike tattoos,I have a phobia about them.There is a name for it but I can't remember offhand what it is.I will explain it like this.Think about a type of food you really hate,something that turns your stomach.Well imagine being told you have to eat that food every day for the rest of your life.That's how I felt about my fiancée getting a tattoo.


----------



## TRy

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I have explained this before but I will do it again.I don't just dislike tattoos,I have a phobia about them.There is a name for it but I can't remember offhand what it is.I will explain it like this.Think about a type of food you really hate,something that turns your stomach.Well imagine being told you have to eat that food every day for the rest of your life.That's how I felt about my fiancée getting a tattoo.


 Ignore the haters, you do not need to defend yourself to them. The haters have it backwards. The issue is not that you choose your dislike of tattoos over her. The issue is that she choose her friend, a tattoo, and possibly revenge, over you and keeping her agreement with you. You were not even married, and yet she already let you know that you were not her priority. BTW, marriage is not an equal opportunity employer; you can and should discriminate based on any criteria that you want.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I have explained this before but I will do it again.I don't just dislike tattoos,I have a phobia about them.There is a name for it but I can't remember offhand what it is.I will explain it like this.Think about a type of food you really hate,something that turns your stomach.Well imagine being told you have to eat that food every day for the rest of your life.That's how I felt about my fiancée getting a tattoo.


You could get help for your phobia but only if you want to.Did you ask your girlfriend who will look after her son if she gets a job


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> Oh okay, thanks for filling me in. I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time to read through 72 pages of a thread; it's a little long! If she wanted to get back at him for flirting and didn't really want the tat, that puts it in a totally different light. I don't understand what the last sentence means though. If this is the case of a "revenge tattoo", then I don't blame him one bit for leaving her. It's no longer an issue of a tattoo, but communication and maturity.


He thinks he can make her do his bidding but she won't let him push her around.She should marry him and then she can do whatever she wants and he can't stop her.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> And that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion, and I don't care if you agree with me or not to be honest. I just think it's incredibly sad that a person would let a true love slip away because of something so small in the grand scheme of things. True love doesn't happen often; hang onto it if you've got it. As to the bolded text; you've actually done this. You've asked your exGF not to get the tattoo, or else you won't marry her. I hope you're able to find someone who lives up to your standards, and God forbid they change even a bit. And, I hope your exGF finds someone to accept her for who she is.


If my husband hated tattoos and asked me not to get one, I wouldn't get one. Just as he wouldn't get one if I hated them. Its called caring and respect.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> He thinks he can make her do his bidding but she won't let him push her around.She should marry him and then she can do whatever she wants and he can't stop her.


Thats a terrible foundation for a marriage.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> You could get help for your phobia but only if you want to.Did you ask your girlfriend who will look after her son if she gets a job


Or she could have done as he asked and not got one. 
I hate heights. If my Husband took me to the edge of a cliff and told me to stay there, how would that be kind? If someone had a phobia about spiders, would it be kind or respectful for the partner to keep spiders in the house?


----------



## Ursula

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Sorry, I didn't realize that you had a phobia of them. I haven't read through all 72 pages of this thread, as I don't have the time for that, and find it a bit too much. I do have phobias though, and one of my big ones is needles (think innoculations/blood tests). I get so worked up if I need to get blood taken, or immunized that I've made myself throw up and pass out. So, I get phobias, and didn't realize you were so scared of tattoos.



Andy1001 said:


> I have explained this before but I will do it again.I don't just dislike tattoos,I have a phobia about them.There is a name for it but I can't remember offhand what it is.I will explain it like this.Think about a type of food you really hate,something that turns your stomach.Well imagine being told you have to eat that food every day for the rest of your life.That's how I felt about my fiancée getting a tattoo.


----------



## Ursula

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I'm scared to death of needles, and as much as I'd love to get a tattoo, I probably couldn't, as I'd pass out, so my H has no need to worry there. However, if he didn't want me to get one, and I was on the fence about it, I wouldn't. If I felt that strongly about getting it though (say, in memory of someone, or as a support to a cause (mental health semicolon, dog paw for my dogs), I would still probably do it if it were kept small.

I dated a guy once who had control over me. Women in his culture had long hair, and he wouldn't let me cut mine, so I wore it long. I REALLY wanted to chop it off though, so one day, I did. I got a longer pixie-bob style, and loved it. He refused to talk to me for about a week. This is the same guy who wouldn't let me wear anything more showy than a tee-shirt, and if I showed up in a tank top, he would take his shirt off and put it on me. He was my first boyfriend, I loved him, didn't know any better, and planned on marrying him. I drew the line when he said that no wife is his was going to hyphenate her last name. I felt strongly (like, really, really strongly) about keeping my surname because I absolutely love it, and it's part of me. If he wouldn't allow me that part of me, what else would he not allow me? My family? My friends? A job? He had already told me at one point that I could come work for him, cooking and cleaning. Yeah, no thanks.

I didn't realize that OP was scared to death of tattoos either, as I've only been able to make it through a small portion of the 72 pages of this thread, and I've replied to him. I know what it's like to have a phobia, and it's awful. If his fiance knew this, it was wrong of her to spring this on him, and yeah, that comes down to respect. It sounds like they're much better off without each other.

When it really boils down to it, I still hold onto my opinion (it has revolved though, now that I know a phobia is involved). But, in a non-phobia situation, a person has a right to do what they would like with their body, their hair, get the glasses of their choosing, choose their own style without someone telling them "no". That's control, and that's not cool. It's different when someone is scared to death of something though.



Diana7 said:


> If my husband hated tattoos and asked me not to get one, I wouldn't get one. Just as he wouldn't get one if I hated them. Its called caring and respect.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Or she could have done as he asked and not got one.
> I hate heights. If my Husband took me to the edge of a cliff and told me to stay there, how would that be kind? If someone had a phobia about spiders, would it be kind or respectful for the partner to keep spiders in the house?


A fear of heights is not unusual but to hate tattoos is strange.My daughter was engaged to a guy and when she got tattoo he broke up with her.It was his loss.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> You two are funny, Andy. If only we all had such problems.
> 
> Your little family will be okay. I see a happy future ahead.


I think your wrong he will never be happy with one woman.Have you read any of his thread he has had hundreds of girls sleep with him and a leopard will not change his spots.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

How do you expect your girlfriend to put up with another woman living with even if YOU say she is gay


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> I think your wrong he will never be happy with one woman.Have you read any of his thread he has had hundreds of girls sleep with him and a leopard will not change his spots.


I understand that was his past, but I do not think it is his future. I think he is committed to this woman, and will be a faithful partner.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I understand that was his past, but I do not think it is his future. I think he is committed to this woman, and will be a faithful partner.


People who have had multiple partners are far more likely to cheat, for obvious reasons.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> A fear of heights is not unusual but to hate tattoos is strange.My daughter was engaged to a guy and when she got tattoo he broke up with her.It was his loss.


People have all sorts of phobias. 
Then why did she get a tattoo if she know how much it meant to him? Marriage is all about give and take and not just thinking of what we want.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> People who have had multiple partners are far more likely to cheat, for obvious reasons.


I do not get that impression from Andy. I think he loves this woman and is willing to forsake all others.

Generally speaking, he seems to have some good values. His gf could benefit from adopting some of his suggestions to her.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> People have all sorts of phobias.
> Then why did she get a tattoo if she know how much it meant to him? Marriage is all about give and take and not just thinking of what we want.


I do not really understand the popularity of tattoos and piercings.

But I have to admit that I am kind of surprised it could keep someone from marrying someone they loved.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> If you read more of this story* she never wanted the tattoo at all but wanted to get back at him for flirting with her friends.*He thinks he can buy everything but she won't let him


Did not know this. Really pays to read the thread.

Why were you flirting with her friends, Andy? That does not sound like you.

Andy, if the bolded is true, then you understand her effort to get some power in the relationship means she feels an imbalance, correct? The relationship is unlikely to go well if both of you do not feel good about the balance of power.

You can take away anyone's ability to scare you by addressing your phobia. Conquering it will make you stronger.

You have many good qualities, Andy. But do not be satisfied to rest on your laurels. Open yourself to cultivating greater inner strength. Your gf and daughter will appreciate it.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Ursula said:


> I'm scared to death of needles, and as much as I'd love to get a tattoo, I probably couldn't, as I'd pass out, so my H has no need to worry there. However, if he didn't want me to get one, and I was on the fence about it, I wouldn't. If I felt that strongly about getting it though (say, in memory of someone, or as a support to a cause (mental health semicolon, dog paw for my dogs), I would still probably do it if it were kept small.
> 
> *I dated a guy once who had control over me. Women in his culture had long hair, and he wouldn't let me cut mine, so I wore it long. I REALLY wanted to chop it off though, so one day, I did. I got a longer pixie-bob style, and loved it. He refused to talk to me for about a week. This is the same guy who wouldn't let me wear anything more showy than a tee-shirt, and if I showed up in a tank top, he would take his shirt off and put it on me. He was my first boyfriend, I loved him, didn't know any better, and planned on marrying him. I drew the line when he said that no wife is his was going to hyphenate her last name. I felt strongly (like, really, really strongly) about keeping my surname because I absolutely love it, and it's part of me. If he wouldn't allow me that part of me, what else would he not allow me? My family? My friends? A job? He had already told me at one point that I could come work for him, cooking and cleaning. Yeah, no thanks.*
> 
> I didn't realize that OP was scared to death of tattoos either, as I've only been able to make it through a small portion of the 72 pages of this thread, and I've replied to him. I know what it's like to have a phobia, and it's awful. If his fiance knew this, it was wrong of her to spring this on him, and yeah, that comes down to respect. It sounds like they're much better off without each other.
> 
> When it really boils down to it, I still hold onto my opinion (it has revolved though, now that I know a phobia is involved). But, in a non-phobia situation, a person has a right to do what they would like with their body, their hair, get the glasses of their choosing, choose their own style without someone telling them "no". That's control, and that's not cool. It's different when someone is scared to death of something though.


You were smart to get away from that guy, Ursula. I think most women, when they marry a controller, will end up leaving them (or want to). The human spirit yearns to be free, and will not accept a cage forever (if escape is possible).


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I do not get that impression from Andy. I think he loves this woman and is willing to forsake all others.
> 
> Generally speaking, he seems to have some good values. His gf could benefit from adopting some of his suggestions to her.


Time will tell I guess.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Time will tell I guess.


I agree.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> If you read more of this story she never wanted the tattoo at all but wanted to get back at him for flirting with her friends.He thinks he can buy everything but she won't let him


That's funny, because I recall that this is what her toxic friends had her convinced of, but she later learned it to be untrue.

If I am incorrect, please direct me to the thread that shows otherwise.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



farsidejunky said:


> That's funny, because I recall that this is what her toxic friends had her convinced of, but she later learned it to be untrue.
> 
> If I am incorrect, please direct me to the thread that shows otherwise.


It seems that I got it wrong in thinking he was flirting with her friends,he showed her texts from them wanting to come over to his home when she wasn't there.She got a text from one of them saying he was in a bar with a girl when he was in the room with her.Please do not bar me again it was an honest mistake.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Did not know this. Really pays to read the thread.
> 
> Why were you flirting with her friends, Andy? That does not sound like you.
> 
> Andy, if the bolded is true, then you understand her effort to get some power in the relationship means she feels an imbalance, correct? The relationship is unlikely to go well if both of you do not feel good about the balance of power.
> 
> You can take away anyone's ability to scare you by addressing your phobia. Conquering it will make you stronger.
> 
> You have many good qualities, Andy. But do not be satisfied to rest on your laurels. Open yourself to cultivating greater inner strength. Your gf and daughter will appreciate it.


This was written by me about him flirting but I got it wrong,he never did it


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> This was written by me about him flirting but I got it wrong,he never did it


That is good to hear. It did not sound like Andy.


----------



## browser

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> People who have had multiple partners are far more likely to cheat, for obvious reasons.


I'm adding this to my top 10 list of "The most ridiculous posts I've read on TAM".


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



browser said:


> I'm adding this to my top 10 list of "The most ridiculous posts I've read on TAM".


Its been studied and proven to be true. It doesn't surprise me at all.


----------



## browser

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Its been studied and proven to be true. It doesn't surprise me at all.


 @Diana7 can cite a study that proves her rather dubious claim that people who have had multiple partners are more likely to cheat. Excellent. 

Please provide a link. I have my apology post drafted and ready to go. 

Thanks

<<<sound of crickets chirping>>>


----------



## dubsey

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

To be fair, if you've only had one partner, by default, it's nearly impossible for you to have cheated. 

But, as with anything, past results will not guarantee future performance.


----------



## CharlieParker

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

My wife had a huge number, she was my first. Who did we think would be more likely to cheat? Me, but neither of us did cheat.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Its been studied and proven to be true. It doesn't surprise me at all.


Like many other people I had lots of sexual partners when I was younger.I was fit,earned big bucks,had my own apt and in all humility I will say I was and still am good looking.I never had any problem picking up women and I picked up lots of them.
I have never cheated on any girlfriend,I have never knowingly slept with anyone who was married or engaged.If they had a ring it was a no go area as far as I was concerned.I met my current girlfriend nearly six years ago and I have never inappropriately touched another woman since.We had problems last year but infidelity was not one of them and we are working through those problems.
You say I am likely to cheat.You know nothing about me other than what is on this forum and nowhere did I write that I had been tempted to cheat on my girlfriend.What I did when I was younger is not something I regret,I had a ****in blast and any man who tells you they would have behaved differently given the same opportunities is either a saint or a liar.
I too would like to see this report that you talk about.


----------



## browser

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> You say I am likely to cheat..I too would like to see this report that you talk about.


Don't hold your breath and don't be offended by the tripe. It is becoming apparent that @Diana7 posts primarily from her heart not her head.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Did not know this. Really pays to read the thread.
> 
> Why were you flirting with her friends, Andy? That does not sound like you.
> 
> Andy, if the bolded is true, then you understand her effort to get some power in the relationship means she feels an imbalance, correct? The relationship is unlikely to go well if both of you do not feel good about the balance of power.
> 
> You can take away anyone's ability to scare you by addressing your phobia. Conquering it will make you stronger.
> 
> You have many good qualities, Andy. But do not be satisfied to rest on your laurels. Open yourself to cultivating greater inner strength. Your gf and daughter will appreciate it.


First of all I don't have a fear of tattoos,I hate the thought of someone I love getting one and I made it clear when we had the "talk"that I wouldn't accept her getting one and she agreed not to.When we were fighting J accused me of texting her friends behind her back and flirting with them.She asked me one night out of the blue could she check my phone and I handed it to her,I had nothing to hide.I also brought up on my laptop my entire call and text billing records so she knew I was not deleting anything. She found lots of texts from her "friends"offering me a shoulder to cry on or anything else I fancied.I never answered one of them and had no intention of doing so.We were fighting then,otherwise I would have told her about the texts immediately.I had a sneaky suspicion that she may have been putting them up to it so I was caught between a rock and a hard place.
The talk of the tattoo started as a joke,she was going to get a stick on one and surprise me with it,unfortunately due to one of her toxic friends the joke got out of hand and I flipped.It was a symptom of other problems in our relationship,I was finalising a huge deal and was a little preoccupied and she was belittling me in front of her friends because they were telling her lies about me.She was also organising our wedding which I was paying for and every day there seemed to be another problem.By the time I called the wedding off it had reached three hundred thousand dollars and I lost most of that,the only people who didn't try to stiff me were the band.
When we got back together J admitted to me that she realised that some of her so called friends were poisoning her mind against me but because I had started pulling away she had nobody else to confide in.These same friends were also trying to hook up with me while telling J I was not a good person.Some of these girls worked for J and when I bought the business I took great pleasure in firing them.
Thank you for the vote of confidence today it was appreciated.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



dubsey said:


> To be fair, if you've only had one partner, by default, it's nearly impossible for you to have cheated.
> 
> But, as with anything, past results will not guarantee future performance.


Of course you can still cheat, you are just less likely to.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



browser said:


> Don't hold your breath and don't be offended by the tripe. It is becoming apparent that @Diana7 posts primarily from her heart not her head.


Not at all I read that just recently. Its pretty obvious that someone who thinks its ok to sleep around is more likely to think its ok to carry on doing that when in a relationship.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Like many other people I had lots of sexual partners when I was younger.I was fit,earned big bucks,had my own apt and in all humility I will say I was and still am good looking.I never had any problem picking up women and I picked up lots of them.
> I have never cheated on any girlfriend,I have never knowingly slept with anyone who was married or engaged.If they had a ring it was a no go area as far as I was concerned.I met my current girlfriend nearly six years ago and I have never inappropriately touched another woman since.We had problems last year but infidelity was not one of them and we are working through those problems.
> You say I am likely to cheat.You know nothing about me other than what is on this forum and nowhere did I write that I had been tempted to cheat on my girlfriend.What I did when I was younger is not something I regret,I had a ****in blast and any man who tells you they would have behaved differently given the same opportunities is either a saint or a liar.
> I too would like to see this report that you talk about.


I know loads of men who didn't act that way, they are not liars. My husband only had sex with his first wife and then me. I know many others who waited for marriage and have been faithful ever since. 

I never said that all men who have lived as you have cheat, I said that those who have had many partners are more likely to cheat. I will try and find the study.


----------



## browser

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Not at all I read that just recently. Its pretty obvious that someone who thinks its ok to sleep around is more likely to think its ok to carry on doing that when in a relationship.


 @Diana7

You "read recently" somewhere that multiple partners are more likely to cheat and you will not be citing a reference to your source, so we'll just assume you saw it in one of those newspapers that are placed by the checkout lines in supermarket that also have articles about UFOs abducting divorcing celebrities and leave it at that. 

Now you add something new and you say that people who have multiple partners also "sleep around". 

Well I for one have had multiple partners in my 50+ years of existence on this planet and the vast majority of those with the exception of a few that were not very noteworthy were during the course of an exclusive relationship that lasted anywhere from 2 weeks to 18 years, and I have never cheated so once again I refute the validity of yet another of your dubious claims.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> Not at all I read that just recently. Its pretty obvious that someone who thinks its ok to sleep around is more likely to think its ok to carry on doing that when in a relationship.


I assume when you mention "sleeping around"that you mean having multiple sexual partners at the same time.I would agree that this is not a situation I would be happy with but as long as nobody is getting hurt or abused then my attitude is do as you wish.On the other hand if you mean continuous short term relationships then I don't see the problem.One night stands are a way for both parties to get what they want with no strings attached,then move on.And yes I had lots of them and I don't regret one.
The worst sex in the world is better than sleeping alone in my opinion.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I assume when you mention "sleeping around"that you mean having multiple sexual partners at the same time.I would agree that this is not a situation I would be happy with but as long as nobody is getting hurt or abused then my attitude is do as you wish.On the other hand if you mean continuous short term relationships then I don't see the problem.One night stands are a way for both parties to get what they want with no strings attached,then move on.And yes I had lots of them and I don't regret one.
> The worst sex in the world is better than sleeping alone in my opinion.


You were able to get most girls that you wanted but not everyone is in the same boat.I am fascinated by your story and I freely admit it.I am starting to think that the people criticising you are jealous.You should try and make up with your brother he is all the family you have.I seen where you blame him for your parents dying but try and get his side.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> First of all I don't have a fear of tattoos,I hate the thought of someone I love getting one and I made it clear when we had the "talk"that I wouldn't accept her getting one and she agreed not to.When we were fighting J accused me of texting her friends behind her back and flirting with them.She asked me one night out of the blue could she check my phone and I handed it to her,I had nothing to hide.I also brought up on my laptop my entire call and text billing records so she knew I was not deleting anything. She found lots of texts from her "friends"offering me a shoulder to cry on or anything else I fancied.I never answered one of them and had no intention of doing so.We were fighting then,otherwise I would have told her about the texts immediately.I had a sneaky suspicion that she may have been putting them up to it so I was caught between a rock and a hard place.
> The talk of the tattoo started as a joke,she was going to get a stick on one and surprise me with it,unfortunately due to one of her toxic friends the joke got out of hand and I flipped.It was a symptom of other problems in our relationship,I was finalising a huge deal and was a little preoccupied and she was belittling me in front of her friends because they were telling her lies about me.She was also organising our wedding which I was paying for and every day there seemed to be another problem.By the time I called the wedding off it had reached three hundred thousand dollars and I lost most of that,the only people who didn't try to stiff me were the band.
> When we got back together J admitted to me that she realised that some of her so called friends were poisoning her mind against me but because I had started pulling away she had nobody else to confide in.These same friends were also trying to hook up with me while telling J I was not a good person.Some of these girls worked for J and when I bought the business I took great pleasure in firing them.
> Thank you for the vote of confidence today it was appreciated.


Her friends were trying to get off with you because of your money and they didn't care about her.What happened to the girl with all the tattoos is she still around.She sounds like a crazy woman trying to get her boyfriend to fight you.You were right to be angry but if you had hit him it would have made you look bad


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> The same one.


Agree

But marry her because you want her to be your wife, not because she is your baby mama.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Her friends were trying to get off with you because of your money and they didn't care about her


This ^^^.

Andy, have you thought about that? Didn't you say her friends would hit on you. Perhaps her only crime here was being gullible. She listened to her friends about the tattoo because (she thought) they were her friends.

Unless I missed some of your posts, she (did you call her "J", I forget) has done everything right and is of high character. 

To just start the discussion, other than the tattoo and that resulting fight, what has she done to make you NOT want to marry her? 

I know sometimes love is not enough, but do you love her?


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> This ^^^.
> 
> Andy, have you thought about that? Didn't you say her friends would hit on you. Perhaps her only crime here was being gullible. She listened to her friends about the tattoo because (she thought) they were her friends.
> 
> Unless I missed some of your posts, she (did you call her "J", I forget) has done everything right and is of high character.
> 
> To just start the discussion, other than the tattoo and that resulting fight, what has she done to make you NOT want to marry her?
> 
> I know sometimes love is not enough, but do you love her?


I'd say he loves her all right,look at all the money he gave her and spent on her failed business.Icouldn't see him spending all that money if he didn't love her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> I know loads of men who didn't act that way, they are not liars. My husband only had sex with his first wife and then me. I know many others who waited for marriage and have been faithful ever since.
> 
> I never said that all men who have lived as you have cheat, I said that those who have had many partners are more likely to cheat. I will try and find the study.


Maybe these sainted men were too ugly to score any hot girls.I just don't buy this "saving yourself",it's easy enough to stay celibate if nobody wants to have sex with you.Compare the amount of pretty girls who keep their virginity to the amount of average looking or downright unattractive girls who do it and the same for men.Even the strongest advocates of fidelity on this forum will admit to more than one partner.Low count they call it and they have my respect but to each their own.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Diana7 said:


> I said that those who have had many partners are more likely to cheat. I will try and find the study.


Please find the study. Because reading many threads here, having TOO FEW partners also IMO are more likely to cheat, especially the couples that married young or are high-school sweethearts.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> This ^^^.
> 
> Andy, have you thought about that? Didn't you say her friends would hit on you. Perhaps her only crime here was being gullible. She listened to her friends about the tattoo because (she thought) they were her friends.
> 
> Unless I missed some of your posts, she (did you call her "J", I forget) has done everything right and is of high character.
> 
> To just start the discussion, other than the tattoo and that resulting fight, what has she done to make you NOT want to marry her?
> 
> I know sometimes love is not enough, but do you love her?


Hello blue how are you. 
I've been thinking about what you asked me and yes I do love J and I think I have loved her from the first time I met her.I never stopped loving her even when we split up and those weeks/months were the worst time of my life.I felt a physical emptiness at that time without her..I went on a crazy spending spree to try and take my mind off her but it didn't make me feel any better.I stupidly thought I could forget her in a few weeks.
As for marriage we have not discussed it at all and we are not engaged even though J and her son live with me.


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Hello blue how are you.
> I've been thinking about what you asked me and yes I do love J and I think I have loved her from the first time I met her.I never stopped loving her even when we split up and those weeks/months were the worst time of my life.I felt a physical emptiness at that time without her..I went on a crazy spending spree to try and take my mind off her but it didn't make me feel any better.I stupidly thought I could forget her in a few weeks.
> As for marriage we have not discussed it at all and we are not engaged even though J and her son live with me.


Obviously you don't need her money and you have to wherewithal to protect your assets if you marry J. So money is not a reason to marry or not marry. You already have most of the benefits of being married (physical proximity, sex, etc) but not the legal agreement. Plus you love her. 

So just give some thought as to why you would or would not marry her. 

The most basic reason would be your loss of sexual freedom. If you are married you should not be sexing someone else. But perhaps if you are living with J and her son and your daughter, I hope that is an exclusive dating/sexual relationship so that you are not getting some elsewhere.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Obviously you don't need her money and you have to wherewithal to protect your assets if you marry J. So money is not a reason to marry or not marry. You already have most of the benefits of being married (physical proximity, sex, etc) but not the legal agreement. Plus you love her.
> 
> So just give some thought as to why you would or would not marry her.
> 
> The most basic reason would be your loss of sexual freedom. If you are married you should not be sexing someone else. But perhaps if you are living with J and her son and your daughter, I hope that is an exclusive dating/sexual relationship so that you are not getting some elsewhere.


The main reason I am hesitant to get married is Js work situation.She will not work for me,she will not run the gym and she still wants to work in the fitness business.So this means her commuting for at least four hours a day and I refuse to spend less time with my wife than we spend together as bf/gf.To me this is ridiculous but she is adamant that she is returning to work.Now she may change her mind when the baby comes but she may not.I can't understand this and believe me I have tried.Another poster asked me what she intends to do about her son if she is working all day but I don't want to broach this subject just yet.Even when we were dating and she was working we met up every day for lunch and we still go out to lunch every day.If she goes back to working then for five days a week I will hardly see her at all,she will be gone for at least thirteen hours a day and maybe more and getting paid peanuts for it.
You are right about the money I don't need or want Js money.Her income after expenses wouldn't pay for childcare for the baby much less someone to watch the boy after school.
There is no other woman on the scene and I am not interested in looking for one.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Obviously you don't need her money and you have to wherewithal to protect your assets if you marry J. So money is not a reason to marry or not marry. You already have most of the benefits of being married (physical proximity, sex, etc) but not the legal agreement. Plus you love her.
> 
> So just give some thought as to why you would or would not marry her.
> 
> The most basic reason would be your loss of sexual freedom. If you are married you should not be sexing someone else. But perhaps if you are living with J and her son and your daughter, I hope that is an exclusive dating/sexual relationship so that you are not getting some elsewhere.


He said that he has no interest in any other women but if J doesn't wise up that might not last.She is being stubborn and cutting off her nose to spite her face.If they break up again I don't think that Andy will wait this time.She must be really hot for him look after her and her son like he has.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I do not get that impression from Andy. I think he loves this woman and is willing to forsake all others.
> 
> Generally speaking, he seems to have some good values. His gf could benefit from adopting some of his suggestions to her.


Now that I have read the whole thing I think he is pretty much ok.Ihad missed parts because there were pages missing but I think he has done more for her than any other man would.If someone paid out hundreds of thousands of pounds for me I would think that this was a sign of love.lmfao.
She needs a kick in the arse to bring her to her senses though but it could be hormones from the pregnancy


----------



## 225985

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> He said that he has no interest in any other women but if J doesn't wise up that might not last.She is being stubborn and cutting off her nose to spite her face.If they break up again I don't think that Andy will wait this time.She must be really hot for him look after her and her son like he has.




Sounds like you didn't read the whole thread.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> He said that he has no interest in any other women but if J doesn't wise up that might not last.She is being stubborn and cutting off her nose to spite her face.If they break up again I don't think that Andy will wait this time.She must be really hot for him look after her and her son like he has.


There was no question of me "waiting" when we broke up because it was me doing the breaking.I have never said I want to break up with j,what I said was I couldn't see any point in getting married to someone who will be gone for most of the week.I have an old fashioned view about marriage and if I marry J and she is only around for one or two days a week then I may as well be single so what's the point.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> This ^^^.
> 
> Andy, have you thought about that? Didn't you say her friends would hit on you. Perhaps her only crime here was being gullible. She listened to her friends about the tattoo because (she thought) they were her friends.
> 
> Unless I missed some of your posts, she (did you call her "J", I forget) has done everything right and is of high character.
> 
> To just start the discussion, other than the tattoo and that resulting fight, what has she done to make you NOT want to marry her?
> 
> I know sometimes love is not enough, but do you love her?


 There may be pages missing, but I went back through after the phobia weirdness and he details where the relationship became unbalanced. Yes, I know, one side blah blah blah. It's funny how he has been subtly labeled controlling, but I can still see posts where he catered to her every whim. Honestly, he has a business like writing style, but he ran his love life like Mr. Nice Guy. It actually make sense when you realize he was a player who found the one and completely changed his behavior. She has done everything right to fix this, but from excessive drinking to putting him behind friends she didn't do "everything right." She made simple mistakes, but they do add up. He made a few mistakes, but they do add up.

He did the right thing for him to reset, realized he loved her and to get them in the proper place to have a more balanced relationship. Eventually, they will be in a better place to entertain marriage again. 

Andy, you aren't old fashioned. This place is littered with broken marriages from too much travel and not enough time spent together.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, you mentioned you have no idea what J plans to do with the children if she returns to working in fitness and has a 2 hr commute to the nearest area with job opportunities for her in that field that aren't working for you. I'd bet she's either thinking nanny or having her family take them while she's working. I think this is something you actually need to talk to her about. IIRC, you do NOT want her parents taking care of your daughter, so you may need to make that clear to her.

I don't know anything but what I've read here, but it's crossed my mind that J might have unrealistic expectations of baby/toddler rearing and how much it changes, well, everything. Remember, previously she lived at home and her mother took care of her son while she worked, dated, and went out with gentlemen, yourself included. She was afforded much more freedom than most mothers, SAHM or working. She might not understand how much time and attention the kids will need because she previously left the bulk of the caregiving to her mom.

I agree with others that you have been quite supportive and have done much for J. Maybe too much.

Women who depend on men are vulnerable. Depending on a man, especially unmarried, can be terrifying. If he ever leaves... How can a woman feel secure in that role? Well, marriage helps. Beyond that, a woman needs to feel necessary, needed, indispensable. Just being a companion and lover isn't enough. 

Your money means that you can pay for any goods or services you need. Cleaner? Done. Landscaper? Yup. Accountant? Got one. Nanny? Can hire the best! Sex? Well, there's courtesans as well as about a billion women who'd jump at the chance to be with a man who is decent looking and financially secure.

Maybe part of the reason she is adverse to SAHM is that she feels vulnerable and insecure in that role. First, you aren't married. Second, you may be doing or hiring out too much. If she's energetic and accustomed to useful employment, she may be feeling about useless at home and as if she isn't contributing enough to the household. Maybe you should ask her to take over more day to day household responsibilities. Cooking all meals, cleaning and dusting, shopping, arranging your Dr appointments and any repairs that need to be done, that kind of thing. Give her something she can DO. Things that will make her feel necessary to you personally and the functioning of the household. Things, even little grunt work things, so that she can feel she has accomplished something.

Also, since your financial situation is so nice, have you ever talked to her about not working once the baby comes, but contributing to society in other ways? She could spin her fitness passion into volunteer work. She could go around to schools and do fitness presentations for kids. She could go to old folks homes and maybe do a bit of very light exercise with those who are still able. She could volunteer at women's shelters teaching fitness to those who really need the mental and physical benefits exercise provides.

Have you suggested going to college for a career change so she could work from home or close to home?


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



blueinbr said:


> Sounds like you didn't read the whole thread.


I read it all but it seems pages are missing,what did i miss hi


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Andy, you mentioned you have no idea what J plans to do with the children if she returns to working in fitness and has a 2 hr commute to the nearest area with job opportunities for her in that field that aren't working for you. I'd bet she's either thinking nanny or having her family take them while she's working. I think this is something you actually need to talk to her about. IIRC, you do NOT want her parents taking care of your daughter, so you may need to make that clear to her.
> 
> I don't know anything but what I've read here, but it's crossed my mind that J might have unrealistic expectations of baby/toddler rearing and how much it changes, well, everything. Remember, previously she lived at home and her mother took care of her son while she worked, dated, and went out with gentlemen, yourself included. She was afforded much more freedom than most mothers, SAHM or working. She might not understand how much time and attention the kids will need because she previously left the bulk of the caregiving to her mom.
> 
> I agree with others that you have been quite supportive and have done much for J. Maybe too much.
> 
> Women who depend on men are vulnerable. Depending on a man, especially unmarried, can be terrifying. If he ever leaves... How can a woman feel secure in that role? Well, marriage helps. Beyond that, a woman needs to feel necessary, needed, indispensable. Just being a companion and lover isn't enough.
> 
> Your money means that you can pay for any goods or services you need. Cleaner? Done. Landscaper? Yup. Accountant? Got one. Nanny? Can hire the best! Sex? Well, there's courtesans as well as about a billion women who'd jump at the chance to be with a man who is decent looking and financially secure.
> 
> Maybe part of the reason she is adverse to SAHM is that she feels vulnerable and insecure in that role. First, you aren't married. Second, you may be doing or hiring out too much. If she's energetic and accustomed to useful employment, she may be feeling about useless at home and as if she isn't contributing enough to the household. Maybe you should ask her to take over more day to day household responsibilities. Cooking all meals, cleaning and dusting, shopping, arranging your Dr appointments and any repairs that need to be done, that kind of thing. Give her something she can DO. Things that will make her feel necessary to you personally and the functioning of the household. Things, even little grunt work things, so that she can feel she has accomplished something.
> 
> Also, since your financial situation is so nice, have you ever talked to her about not working once the baby comes, but contributing to society in other ways? She could spin her fitness passion into volunteer work. She could go around to schools and do fitness presentations for kids. She could go to old folks homes and maybe do a bit of very light exercise with those who are still able. She could volunteer at women's shelters teaching fitness to those who really need the mental and physical benefits exercise provides.
> 
> Have you suggested going to college for a career change so she could work from home or close to home?


Hello MJ.
At the moment I am not going to bring up the subject of work to J because I am likely to get angry if she keeps up this insistence on commuting after the baby is born.I have no control whatsoever in what J does as regards to her son being looked after when she is at work but I have a legally enforceable custody agreement concerning my daughter and if necessary I will enforce it.There is no way my daughter will ever be under the influence of Js mother if I can prevent it.I will have no problem in hiring a nanny or even two if necessary and I will be very involved in my daughters life from day one.Her mother hasn't spoken to her since Thanksgiving anyway so it's probably a moot point.
As for your suggestions about working from home,anything I mention about work is seen as an attack on her independence so I'm keeping my mouth shut.For now.
When she does the math she will realise that this plan will not work and she will hardly ever see the baby,she will have to leave home by six am and will not be home before seven pm for five days a week and this will include weekends regularly.But trying to get this through to her is impossible.
As for working around the house that is a mammoth task in itself.I have never made it clear just how big my house is but it is huge and I have two full time housekeeping staff to look after it and me.Uncle Sam is very understanding about just how much personal care and attention he allows tax breaks for.My office has a swimming pool attached ffs.
I hope that J gets sense when the baby arrives but I will have to wait and see.


----------



## Leonor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

You are and seem in many ways extremely generous and also kind.

On the other hand, you also behave like someone who was born into money, has money and is used to money getting him all he wants. It's either your way or the highway. I understand that a full-time job in a different town and with a small baby is not practical and maybe she will agree with that once she's ready, but at the same time I feel like you don't care for her fulfillment and happiness. Well, maybe that's too harsh, you saved her business after all and let her have a win without rubbing her face into it. But still, you can't seem to see how much it means to her to have something completely on her own. She was a successful businesswoman before you entered the picture, can't you say that some independence is probably what she needs to be able to look into the mirror every day?

Millions of guys would be happy to marry a woman who is not dependent on them and who wants to pay her own way. And you are not. Do you really want a bored SAHM who will resent you in years to come for restricting her to being a SAHM? 

I'm not saying you don't love her, I think you do and not many people are as generous as you are. At the same time, I feel like your love comes with tons of conditions and that you are not aware that your money leads to an inbalance of power in your relationship. Maybe, this is actually healthy for you. But at the same time, this might be very smothering if your partner has a head of her own. I don't think you are used to a "no", so while she sounds like a good woman, maybe you would be happier with a Stepford wife.

I don't say that in a mean-spirited way because as I've said, you seem to have many good qualities, but at the same time, I kind of like your gf for standing her ground when so many other women would have jumped on the opportunity of golddigging.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Leonor said:


> You are and seem in many ways extremely generous and also kind.
> 
> On the other hand, you also behave like someone who was born into money, has money and is used to money getting him all he wants. It's either your way or the highway. I understand that a full-time job in a different town and with a small baby is not practical and maybe she will agree with that once she's ready, but at the same time I feel like you don't care for her fulfillment and happiness. Well, maybe that's too harsh, you saved her business after all and let her have a win without rubbing her face into it. But still, you can't seem to see how much it means to her to have something completely on her own. She was a successful businesswoman before you entered the picture, can't you say that some independence is probably what she needs to be able to look into the mirror every day?
> 
> Millions of guys would be happy to marry a woman who is not dependent on them and who wants to pay her own way. And you are not. Do you really want a bored SAHM who will resent you in years to come for restricting her to being a SAHM?
> 
> I'm not saying you don't love her, I think you do and not many people are as generous as you are. At the same time, I feel like your love comes with tons of conditions and that you are not aware that your money leads to an inbalance of power in your relationship. Maybe, this is actually healthy for you. But at the same time, this might be very smothering if your partner has a head of her own. I don't think you are used to a "no", so while she sounds like a good woman, maybe you would be happier with a Stepford wife.
> 
> I don't say that in a mean-spirited way because as I've said, you seem to have many good qualities, but at the same time, I kind of like your gf for standing her ground when so many other women would have jumped on the opportunity of golddigging.


I agree with you on most of what you said but I don't know what he can do.He wants a companion as well as a wife and I don't think it's her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Leonor said:


> You are and seem in many ways extremely generous and also kind.
> 
> On the other hand, you also behave like someone who was born into money, has money and is used to money getting him all he wants. It's either your way or the highway. I understand that a full-time job in a different town and with a small baby is not practical and maybe she will agree with that once she's ready, but at the same time I feel like you don't care for her fulfillment and happiness. Well, maybe that's too harsh, you saved her business after all and let her have a win without rubbing her face into it. But still, you can't seem to see how much it means to her to have something completely on her own. She was a successful businesswoman before you entered the picture, can't you say that some independence is probably what she needs to be able to look into the mirror every day?
> 
> Millions of guys would be happy to marry a woman who is not dependent on them and who wants to pay her own way. And you are not. Do you really want a bored SAHM who will resent you in years to come for restricting her to being a SAHM?
> 
> I'm not saying you don't love her, I think you do and not many people are as generous as you are. At the same time, I feel like your love comes with tons of conditions and that you are not aware that your money leads to an inbalance of power in your relationship. Maybe, this is actually healthy for you. But at the same time, this might be very smothering if your partner has a head of her own. I don't think you are used to a "no", so while she sounds like a good woman, maybe you would be happier with a Stepford wife.
> 
> I don't say that in a mean-spirited way because as I've said, you seem to have many good qualities, but at the same time, I kind of like your gf for standing her ground when so many other women would have jumped on the opportunity of golddigging.


I'm not looking for a wife that will be sitting at home knitting or baking but I do want her to be around and I want to be able to head off for the day whenever we feel like it.In regards to her wanting something for herself it's not as if she will be contributing to world peace by working in a gym.


----------



## Leonor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I'm not looking for a wife that will be sitting at home knitting or baking but I do want her to be around and I want to be able to head off for the day whenever we feel like it.In regards to her wanting something for herself it's not as if she will be contributing to world peace by working in a gym.


"But I do want her to be around and I want to be able to head off for the day whenever we feel like it" - you do realize that this is not a reality for most people, right? I don't know, your view on life seems so removed from reality to me, and I'm not sitting somewhere in a third world country but rather in the middle of central europe.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Leonor said:


> "But I do want her to be around and I want to be able to head off for the day whenever we feel like it" - you do realize that this is not a reality for most people, right? I don't know, your view on life seems so removed from reality to me, and I'm not sitting somewhere in a third world country but rather in the middle of central europe.


Without trying to sound like an entitled ******* I don't really care what anyone else does with their lives I am only concerned with mine.I make enough money to do whatever I want to and I make no apologies for that to you or anyone else who wants to tell me I'm (insert cliche)in regards to my lifestyle.


----------



## Leonor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Without trying to sound like an entitled ******* I don't really care what anyone else does with their lives I am only concerned with mine.I make enough money to do whatever I want to and I make no apologies for that to you or anyone else who wants to tell me I'm (insert cliche)in regards to my lifestyle.


I didn't expect/want you to make apologies to *me*. But considering your girlfriend is pregnant with your baby, it probably would not be that bad to take *her* view into account and see whether you can make a compromise. Because right now you seem pretty unapologetic, and under normal circumstances I would say go for it, but since a baby girl is on the way, it's in your own best interest to find some common ground if you don't want her to end up with a broken home sooner or later. Maybe you are more understanding in real life, but on this board, you don't show the ability to empathize with your girlfriend and it looks like you don't even try to put yourself in her shoes.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Leonor said:


> I didn't expect/want you to make apologies to *me*. But considering your girlfriend is pregnant with your baby, it probably would not be that bad to take *her* view into account and see whether you can make a compromise. Because right now you seem pretty unapologetic, and under normal circumstances I would say go for it, but since a baby girl is on the way, it's in your own best interest to find some common ground if you don't want her to end up with a broken home sooner or later. Maybe you are more understanding in real life, but on this board, you don't show the ability to empathize with your girlfriend and it looks like you don't even try to put yourself in her shoes.


Maybe I was a bit rude to you yesterday and for that I apologise.I was stuck in an airport waiting for a flight and I didn't want to be there and I certainly don't want to be traveling this close to the baby's arrival.Im in Ireland now and have to stay until tomorrow.I use this forum mainly for venting and I am aware I come across as not being very emphatic but I am trying to work on that.I never try and bully J and I would never try to "rub her nose in it" about her business failure.If she hadn't been so soft with her friends and family she would never have lost it.But that's why I love her,she is so warm hearted and kind.(When she's not pregnant)Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to read my story.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Without trying to sound like an entitled ******* I don't really care what anyone else does with their lives I am only concerned with mine.I make enough money to do whatever I want to and I make no apologies for that to you or anyone else who wants to tell me I'm (insert cliche)in regards to my lifestyle.


Kids thrive on security. Part of feeling secure for young children is routine and discipline. Not just discipline for the child, but the child being able to see disciplined behavior in the adults. It's important for kids to know their parents sometimes wish they could do something, but cannot because of <insert responsible reason here>. You may want to think about making some adjustments to your randomness. I wouldn't say stay at home more than you can stand if you have a decent dose of wanderlust, but maybe limit random trips to traditional vacation times and holidays.

You mentioned a very large house earlier. You also mentioned competent staff. Great. Now, how much of the personal assistant type details could you hand over to J so that she can feel more necessary to your personal care and happiness? How much of the running of the household, directing of the staff included, can she take over? What about reno? Women like to make renovations to homes they move into in order to make the house more "theirs".


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Kids thrive on security. Part of feeling secure for young children is routine and discipline. Not just discipline for the child, but the child being able to see disciplined behavior in the adults. It's important for kids to know their parents sometimes wish they could do something, but cannot because of <insert responsible reason here>. You may want to think about making some adjustments to your randomness. I wouldn't say stay at home more than you can stand if you have a decent dose of wanderlust, but maybe limit random trips to traditional vacation times and holidays.
> 
> You mentioned a very large house earlier. You also mentioned competent staff. Great. Now, how much of the personal assistant type details could you hand over to J so that she can feel more necessary to your personal care and happiness? How much of the running of the household, directing of the staff included, can she take over? What about reno? Women like to make renovations to homes they move into in order to make the house more "theirs".


That's a good idea about the pa,I will ask her about it.I had to go to Ireland yesterday and It pissed me off but I will be back tomorrow.An aunt of mine died about a year ago and she left me her farm and house.I don't want it,she had plenty of relatives in Ireland but she didn't get along with any of them.I let her stay in my apt in NY for about three months when her husband died and she told me she wouldn't forget me in her will,I thought she was Joking.I sold the property and am sharing the proceeds between all the relatives but I had to personally sign a **** load of papers.Some of them are unhappy because everyone is getting an equal share but **** em.I just want to go home but I'm in Dublin for the night.
When I bought my house originally I knocked it down and then built a four storey place with two levels underground.We have had a room decorated for the boy and we will get a room converted into a nursery soon.If she wants to start renovating I have no problem and I will give her free reign to do whatever she wants.If she does one room at a time it will take her forever to get finished and that suits me fine.
When I say go away whenever I want I really only mean day trips or weekends,the boy is still in school and I won't disrupt his education.


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## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> That's a good idea about the pa,I will ask her about it.I had to go to Ireland yesterday and It pissed me off but I will be back tomorrow.An aunt of mine died about a year ago and she left me her farm and house.I don't want it,she had plenty of relatives in Ireland but she didn't get along with any of them.I let her stay in my apt in NY for about three months when her husband died and she told me she wouldn't forget me in her will,I thought she was Joking.I sold the property and am sharing the proceeds between all the relatives but I had to personally sign a **** load of papers.Some of them are unhappy because everyone is getting an equal share but **** em.I just want to go home but I'm in Dublin for the night.
> When I bought my house originally I knocked it down and then built a four storey place with two levels underground.We have had a room decorated for the boy and we will get a room converted into a nursery soon.If she wants to start renovating I have no problem and I will give her free reign to do whatever she wants.If she does one room at a time it will take her forever to get finished and that suits me fine.
> When I say go away whenever I want I really only mean day trips or weekends,the boy is still in school and I won't disrupt his education.


Lord, I hope you're capable of being subtle! Just asking "Honey, you want to take over the work a Personal Assistant would do for me?" could work or it could go over like a lead balloon. You might want to subtly ask for her help, sort of ease her into the running of the household and organizing your personal lives.


----------



## browser

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Leonor said:


> "But I do want her to be around and I want to be able to head off for the day whenever we feel like it" - you do realize that this is not a reality for most people, right? I don't know, your view on life seems so removed from reality to me, and I'm not sitting somewhere in a third world country but rather in the middle of central europe.


Unnecessarily inflammatory and not even accurate. 

What's your agenda here, new poster?


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Lord, I hope you're capable of being subtle! Just asking "Honey, you want to take over the work a Personal Assistant would do for me?" could work or it could go over like a lead balloon. You might want to subtly ask for her help, sort of ease her into the running of the household and organizing your personal lives.


You got me laughing just now and I needed a laugh.I'm still in Ireland,my flight home was cancelled due to the weather so I have another night in Dublin.Normally I would love this but not at the moment.I have given some thought to what you said about renovations and I told J on the phone that I've seen some beautifully decorated rooms in my family's houses and in the hotel I'm staying in and I think it's time to redecorate at home.I just know she will have dozens of catalogs and brochures when I get home.If I suggest hiring an interior designer it will be like a red rag to a bull.lol.I would love to have J with me in Dublin with St Patrick's day on Friday but maybe next year.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Huh, I thought actual Irishmen didn't really do St Patrick's Day. At least, not like we do in the U.S. where St Paddy's Day is an excuse to pinch your friends and do the many radio station sponsored pub crawls. Ah, St. Patrick's. The one day a year drinking at 7 am is not only acceptable, but encouraged. 

So sorry your flight got canceled. I know it must be making you batty to be separated from J while she's so close to delivering. Since babies come when they damn well please and all. 

Has J started "nesting"? Some women just clean. Others tear the whole house apart and purge, scrub, and insist even small nothing repairs be made RIGHT NOW at 3 am! With the girls, I cleaned everything within an inch of it's life and did some minor repairs myself (because my ex sucked) for about a week before I went into labor. With my son, I suddenly became obsessed with laundry and organization. 

If you gave J the idea she could/should renovate and she's nesting...whoo boy! I hope some of your favorite walls haven't been knocked down and moved by the time you get home. My friend's mom was "nesting" while carrying her and, at 8 months pregnant, got inspired to plant about 200 baby pine trees on their property. As far as I know, those trees are still standing. When she was pregnant with my friend's sister, she randomly decided to knock down the dining room wall with a mallet one afternoon. I moved a 50 gallon fish tank and repaired my stairs as well as a leak and the resulting ceiling damage while pregnant with DD #2. Pregnant women are forces of nature.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Huh, I thought actual Irishmen didn't really do St Patrick's Day. At least, not like we do in the U.S. where St Paddy's Day is an excuse to pinch your friends and do the many radio station sponsored pub crawls. Ah, St. Patrick's. The one day a year drinking at 7 am is not only acceptable, but encouraged.
> 
> So sorry your flight got canceled. I know it must be making you batty to be separated from J while she's so close to delivering. Since babies come when they damn well please and all.
> 
> Has J started "nesting"? Some women just clean. Others tear the whole house apart and purge, scrub, and insist even small nothing repairs be made RIGHT NOW at 3 am! With the girls, I cleaned everything within an inch of it's life and did some minor repairs myself (because my ex sucked) for about a week before I went into labor. With my son, I suddenly became obsessed with laundry and organization.
> 
> If you gave J the idea she could/should renovate and she's nesting...whoo boy! I hope some of your favorite walls haven't been knocked down and moved by the time you get home. My friend's mom was "nesting" while carrying her and, at 8 months pregnant, got inspired to plant about 200 baby pine trees on their property. As far as I know, those trees are still standing. When she was pregnant with my friend's sister, she randomly decided to knock down the dining room wall with a mallet one afternoon. I moved a 50 gallon fish tank and repaired my stairs as well as a leak and the resulting ceiling damage while pregnant with DD #2. Pregnant women are forces of nature.


I am only an honorary Irishman due to my mothers sisters marrying Irish men and carrying on their tradition of big families.I have so many cousins that I don't know half of them but most of them have stayed in my apt in NY at one time or another.I am in the air right now so I will be home early today.
You seem to love yanking my chain about things lol but I suppose I ask for it.I spoke to J earlier and she has started making big plans for decorating the house.I hope I haven't released a monster lol.Some parts of my house have never even been painted so it's about time it was done if we are going to be living there as a family.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am only an honorary Irishman due to my mothers sisters marrying Irish men and carrying on their tradition of big families.I have so many cousins that I don't know half of them but most of them have stayed in my apt in NY at one time or another.I am in the air right now so I will be home early today.
> You seem to love yanking my chain about things lol but I suppose I ask for it.I spoke to J earlier and she has started making big plans for decorating the house.I hope I haven't released a monster lol.Some parts of my house have never even been painted so it's about time it was done if we are going to be living there as a family.


I am not yanking your chain, my friend! I am sharing wisdom and life experience! >

Seriously, though, if there are rooms that need finished or redecorated and J finishes them it may make her feel more a vested partner than guest. 

I can't even wrap my mind around having the financial means and leaving entire rooms unpainted, undecorated, and/or unused. Men really are bears with furniture.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am only an honorary Irishman due to my mothers sisters marrying Irish men and carrying on their tradition of big families.I have so many cousins that I don't know half of them but most of them have stayed in my apt in NY at one time or another.I am in the air right now so I will be home early today.
> You seem to love yanking my chain about things lol but I suppose I ask for it.I spoke to J earlier and she has started making big plans for decorating the house.I hope I haven't released a monster lol.Some parts of my house have never even been painted so it's about time it was done if we are going to be living there as a family.


Just how big is your house!


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## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Maybe if you sold up and you both picked a house together she would be happier


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> I am not yanking your chain, my friend! I am sharing wisdom and life experience! >
> 
> Seriously, though, if there are rooms that need finished or redecorated and J finishes them it may make her feel more a vested partner than guest.
> 
> I can't even wrap my mind around having the financial means and leaving entire rooms unpainted, undecorated, and/or unused. Men really are bears with furniture.


The house was designed in Germany by a group of architects,engineers,electronic designers and manufacturers as a futuristic "smart house".Nobody thought it would ever be built.I had signed my second five year deal and was in the headquarters of the manufacturing company when I got talking to some of their guys and seen the model.I was smitten and wanted it for myself but the cost would have been scary,we got it designated as a "research project" which it was because some of the gadgets hadn't even been produced at that stage and that gave me some big tax breaks.It is basically a concrete box sunk in the ground that's flood proof,fairly earthquake proof and absolutely everything can be controlled remotely from an iPad or iPhone.Every light,fan,window,appliance etc can be controlled.The guy who designed the smart part unfortunately passed over before it was complete but he gave me a piece of advice one day that I have never forgotten.He had bought a Bugatti veyron car and paid over two million euro for it.I asked him why he bought it and he said "I will be a long time dead"He wasn't sick at the time but he died less than a year later and I never forgot what he said to me.My own favourite answer when someone asks why I bought something they consider outrageous is "this is not a dress rehearsal,this is life".
Now to really annoy you.The house is twenty two thousand square feet and two floors have never been decorated or furnished.The type of finish on the underground walls was very innovative at the time and took months before it could be painted so I just use the pool on the lowest level during the winter and I have left the rest.
I did ask you would you think about moving in a few months ago remember.lol.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The house was designed in Germany by a group of architects,engineers,electronic designers and manufacturers as a futuristic "smart house".Nobody thought it would ever be built.I had signed my second five year deal and was in the headquarters of the manufacturing company when I got talking to some of their guys and seen the model.I was smitten and wanted it for myself but the cost would have been scary,we got it designated as a "research project" which it was because some of the gadgets hadn't even been produced at that stage and that gave me some big tax breaks.It is basically a concrete box sunk in the ground that's flood proof,fairly earthquake proof and absolutely everything can be controlled remotely from an iPad or iPhone.Every light,fan,window,appliance etc can be controlled.The guy who designed the smart part unfortunately passed over before it was complete but he gave me a piece of advice one day that I have never forgotten.He had bought a Bugatti veyron car and paid over two million euro for it.I asked him why he bought it and he said "I will be a long time dead"He wasn't sick at the time but he died less than a year later and I never forgot what he said to me.My own favourite answer when someone asks why I bought something they consider outrageous is "this is not a dress rehearsal,this is life".
> Now to really annoy you.The house is twenty two thousand square feet and two floors have never been decorated or furnished.The type of finish on the underground walls was very innovative at the time and took months before it could be painted so I just use the pool on the lowest level during the winter and I have left the rest.
> I did ask you would you think about moving in a few months ago remember.lol.


Dude, I just got excited! I love architecture. I am not formally educated and I am not an architect groupie, but I know what I like and become ridiculously emotional. I actually cried a bit the last time I watched a documentary on Moroccan design. So freaking beautiful!

I am a huge fan of cement construction and I've seen some TV shows and Youtube vids featuring homes designed partially underground, so I have an idea what you're talking about. In floor heating? Thermal? Solar? Security? Fire suppression? Can everything be operated manually in case of a hardware or software malfunction? OMG, man, details!!!

When I was a kid my parents went to Grandma and Grandpa's house every weekend and every holiday. The house was small and my grandparents had 6 children. Once their kids were grown and married, it was impossible to host everyone and us grandkids on the top floor, so we got kicked down to the basement to amuse ourselves. It was all unfinished cement without clutter. All we had to do was avoid the water heater and furnace on one end and the washer/dryer area on the other. Since winter here gets so cold, we would go down there with our bikes and skateboards and rollerblades, and as much soda as we could get our hands on. Many happy times.

You should totally design an area for the kids to play. A colorful and fun space where they don't have to worry about running into or damaging anything and can really cut loose. Also, buy drums. All kids get at least 1 set of drums. It's a rule.


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## JohnA

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

My brothers finished his basement. I think it is the highlight of an impressive house (although not nearly 22,000 feet). It has high ceilings and a huge open area. He put in a subfloor and hardwood floor, finished drywall walls and ceilings. He also invested heavily in electrical wiring and in ceiling lighting. It was a pre-teen then teen dream come true complete with pool table, foze ball, gaming center, and movie posters and now is an adult theme world.


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## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Dude, I just got excited! I love architecture. I am not formally educated and I am not an architect groupie, but I know what I like and become ridiculously emotional. I actually cried a bit the last time I watched a documentary on Moroccan design. So freaking beautiful!
> 
> I am a huge fan of cement construction and I've seen some TV shows and Youtube vids featuring homes designed partially underground, so I have an idea what you're talking about. In floor heating? Thermal? Solar? Security? Fire suppression? Can everything be operated manually in case of a hardware or software malfunction? OMG, man, details!!!
> 
> When I was a kid my parents went to Grandma and Grandpa's house every weekend and every holiday. The house was small and my grandparents had 6 children. Once their kids were grown and married, it was impossible to host everyone and us grandkids on the top floor, so we got kicked down to the basement to amuse ourselves. It was all unfinished cement without clutter. All we had to do was avoid the water heater and furnace on one end and the washer/dryer area on the other. Since winter here gets so cold, we would go down there with our bikes and skateboards and rollerblades, and as much soda as we could get our hands on. Many happy times.
> 
> You should totally design an area for the kids to play. A colorful and fun space where they don't have to worry about running into or damaging anything and can really cut loose. Also, buy drums. All kids get at least 1 set of drums. It's a rule.


The heating and cooling system is electrical,geothermal and solar.All the heating is underfloor and the cooling is wall mounted.Every window and door has a shutter that can be dropped in seconds making the house a fortress,there is an addressable fire alarm system that monitors every four seconds and an addressable emergency lighting system that is self test. My office has a halon gas system that seals the room and extinguishes fire within seconds.As for drums lol.There is a recording studio in the basement.The house was designed as a single mans wet dream and has everything you could think of,bar,pool table,pinball,two swimming pools,basketball court,gym and lots more.The concrete used in the underground section is virtually unpenetrateable once it hardens fully but this takes over a year and I never got around to painting the walls.Js son loves exploring and the only place he can't go alone is the pool area downstairs.The outdoor pool is also off limits but it's empty at the moment anyway.
When I came home yesterday J had allready picked up a **** load of interior decorating catalogs and magazines and she has big plans and I couldn't be happier,I told her my office is off limits otherwise she can do whatever she wants.
This really was a great idea of yours and I am very grateful to you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



JohnA said:


> My brothers finished his basement. I think it is the highlight of an impressive house (although not nearly 22,000 feet). It has high ceilings and a huge open area. He put in a subfloor and hardwood floor, finished drywall walls and ceilings. He also invested heavily in electrical wiring and in ceiling lighting. It was a pre-teen then teen dream come true complete with pool table, foze ball, gaming center, and movie posters and now is an adult theme world.


It sounds impressive for sure.From my apprentice days the only thing I would disagree with is ceiling mounted lights.I prefer recessed where possible but each to his own.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The heating and cooling system is electrical,geothermal and solar.All the heating is underfloor and the cooling is wall mounted.Every window and door has a shutter that can be dropped in seconds making the house a fortress,there is an addressable fire alarm system that monitors every four seconds and an addressable emergency lighting system that is self test. My office has a halon gas system that seals the room and extinguishes fire within seconds.As for drums lol.There is a recording studio in the basement.The house was designed as a single mans wet dream and has everything you could think of,bar,pool table,pinball,two swimming pools,basketball court,gym and lots more.The concrete used in the underground section is virtually unpenetrateable once it hardens fully but this takes over a year and I never got around to painting the walls.Js son loves exploring and the only place he can't go alone is the pool area downstairs.The outdoor pool is also off limits but it's empty at the moment anyway.
> When I came home yesterday J had allready picked up a **** load of interior decorating catalogs and magazines and she has big plans and I couldn't be happier,I told her my office is off limits otherwise she can do whatever she wants.
> This really was a great idea of yours and I am very grateful to you.


Your house sounds great it must have cost a fortune.I seen one of these smart houses on TV but it was coming in at twelve million pounds,it was massive true enough.Why do you have two pools would one not be enough.The concrete you are talking about has dry ice pumped into it to slow down the setting,it is used for building dams in hot climates.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The heating and cooling system is electrical,geothermal and solar.All the heating is underfloor and the cooling is wall mounted.Every window and door has a shutter that can be dropped in seconds making the house a fortress,there is an addressable fire alarm system that monitors every four seconds and my office has a halon gas system that seals the room and extinguishes fire within seconds.As for drums lol.There is a recording studio in the basement.The house was designed as a single mans wet dream and has everything you could think of,bar,pool table,pinball,two swimming pools,basketball court,gym and lots more.The concrete used in the underground section is virtually unpenetrateable once it hardens fully but this takes over a year and I never got around to painting the walls.Js son loves exploring and the only place he can't go alone is the pool area downstairs.The outdoor pool is also off limits but it's empty at the moment anyway.
> When I came home yesterday J had allready picked up a **** load of interior decorating catalogs and magazines and she has big plans and I couldn't be happier,I told her my office is off limits otherwise she can do whatever she wants.
> This really was a great idea of yours and I am very grateful to you.


Having a soundproofed room the kids can drum in is cheating! 90% of the fun is driving the parents crazy. 

Have you made sure the pool areas are childproofed yet? Pro Tip: Kids are clever. If a kid wants into the pool bad enough, it'll eventually happen. Other than proper security around pools I think teaching kids to swim as infants/toddlers is an important safety measure. 

You have space and money. Have you or J thought about her having a true home business? If a separated entrance exists or can be created, she could reno a space into anything from a fitness studio to an office. She could return to university for a degree in absolutely anything. She could use her current skills or a new degree to run a business from home and fill her own need to work while not having to be away from the kids or you. Even if the location isn't great, much can be handled remotely and clients tend to be willing to travel a bit for a quality service or product. J is in a very rare and precious position. She could take some time, weigh her options, and do almost anything with her life. You just have to inspire her to start thinking about possibilities she wouldn't have considered before. 

I'm happy an idea of mine helped. I'll keep tossing ideas and see what sticks. :grin2:

Wow... While I was typing I got a call from my oldest. DD1 is planning a small courthouse wedding ceremony in July. We're white. The man she is planning to marry is black and has 3 children with his ex partner of 9 years. ExH is NOT happy. DD informed him she doesn't want him at the wedding. Apparently, exH's head has exploded and there is Drama.

This young man DD wants to marry is a good man from what I know of him. He pays child support and is involved with his children. He treats my daughter well. He's smart. He has common sense. He is honest and reasonable with a good sense of humor. I'd be happy to have him as SIL. 

Your baby girl is about to be born and mine is about to marry. Wow.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Having a soundproofed room the kids can drum in is cheating! 90% of the fun is driving the parents crazy.
> 
> Have you made sure the pool areas are childproofed yet? Pro Tip: Kids are clever. If a kid wants into the pool bad enough, it'll eventually happen. Other than proper security around pools I think teaching kids to swim as infants/toddlers is an important safety measure.
> 
> You have space and money. Have you or J thought about her having a true home business? If a separated entrance exists or can be created, she could reno a space into anything from a fitness studio to an office. She could return to university for a degree in absolutely anything. She could use her current skills or a new degree to run a business from home and fill her own need to work while not having to be away from the kids or you. Even if the location isn't great, much can be handled remotely and clients tend to be willing to travel a bit for a quality service or product. J is in a very rare and precious position. She could take some time, weigh her options, and do almost anything with her life. You just have to inspire her to start thinking about possibilities she wouldn't have considered before.
> 
> I'm happy an idea of mine helped. I'll keep tossing ideas and see what sticks. :grin2:
> 
> Wow... While I was typing I got a call from my oldest. DD1 is planning a small courthouse wedding ceremony in July. We're white. The man she is planning to marry is black and has 3 children with his ex partner of 9 years. ExH is NOT happy. DD informed him she doesn't want him at the wedding. Apparently, exH's head has exploded and there is Drama.
> 
> This young man DD wants to marry is a good man from what I know of him. He pays child support and is involved with his children. He treats my daughter well. He's smart. He has common sense. He is honest and reasonable with a good sense of humor. I'd be happy to have him as SIL.
> 
> Your baby girl is about to be born and mine is about to marry. Wow.


It would be impossible for the boy to get into the pool area unless me or J is there.I have a fingerprint door locking system on the door and the heat saving cover will not roll back without a code being typed in.The only two people who can open it are me and J.I'm not going to suggest anything else as regards working from home,at least for a while.It was hard enough to make her believe that the decorating is her idea,I'm not going to push my luck.She has downloaded an app that lets her take photos of a room and then compare different colours and finishes and if she does the whole house it should keep her busy for at least two years and then we can start again lol.
Your daughter is very brave taking on a new husband with three kids.I wish her and her husband to be nothing but the best.J has one son and I was supposed to adopt him when we were married,the boy's father has never even seen him,he disappeared when J was pregnant.I honestly cannot understand any man abandoning his child,this is a part of you and you can't run away from yourself.If we do get married I would be proud to adopt him and he will always be my daughters half brother anyway.
You have drums on the brain btw.I will tell you a funny story.My gay friend Ally was with me at a motley crue gig and we got backstage.Tommy lee took a shine to her and signed two drumsticks that he had used that night.If he knew she was gay he wouldn't have bothered.She gave them to me to look after and I gave one of them to a girl that I took a shine to but I made sure she wasn't gay lol.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Your house sounds great it must have cost a fortune.I seen one of these smart houses on TV but it was coming in at twelve million pounds,it was massive true enough.Why do you have two pools would one not be enough.The concrete you are talking about has dry ice pumped into it to slow down the setting,it is used for building dams in hot climates.


Are you still stalking me dude.You don't comment on anything other than my thread,are you really so enthralled with my story.I have two pools because I want two ****ing pools and if I want another one I will build it.You want to know how much my house cost,try minding your own business instead.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> It would be impossible for the boy to get into the pool area unless me or J is there.I have a fingerprint door locking system on the door and the heat saving cover will not roll back without a code being typed in.The only two people who can open it are me and J.I'm not going to suggest anything else as regards working from home,at least for a while.It was hard enough to make her believe that the decorating is her idea,I'm not going to push my luck.She has downloaded an app that lets her take photos of a room and then compare different colours and finishes and if she does the whole house it should keep her busy for at least two years and then we can start again lol.
> Your daughter is very brave taking on a new husband with three kids.I wish her and her husband to be nothing but the best.J has one son and I was supposed to adopt him when we were married,the boy's father has never even seen him,he disappeared when J was pregnant.I honestly cannot understand any man abandoning his child,this is a part of you and you can't run away from yourself.If we do get married I would be proud to adopt him and he will always be my daughters half brother anyway.
> You have drums on the brain btw.I will tell you a funny story.My gay friend Ally was with me at a motley crue gig and we got backstage.Tommy lee took a shine to her and signed two drumsticks that he had used that night.If he knew she was gay he wouldn't have bothered.She gave them to me to look after and I gave one of them to a girl that I took a shine to but I made sure she wasn't gay lol.


Awesome safety! 

A smart man knows when to shut the hell up. Biding your time while J is busy with the baby and renovating/decorating is probably best. Plenty of time to bring it up later if you need to. For all we know, J's whole way of thinking about the subject will change.

ExH had two children by two different women before we met. I didn't know until after I was pregnant with DD#1. He hasn't been involved at all with either of them and owes over $200,000 in child support. He had the girls with me during our disaster of a marriage. He's never paid support and went a bit over a decade without seeing them. He has a son and daughter with his new wife. Those kids have been in foster care since about a year and a half ago. Apparently, he and his wife were found guilty of felony child neglect due to their failure to supervise the children and clean the house.

DD#1 moved down to SC to go to a training program while living with her paternal grandparents. She stayed on through her grandfathers cancer and passing, but her relationship with her father is strained, to say the least. A plethora of reasons as to why ranging from domestic violence to his failure to keep a job.

Here's to DH, who stepped in and raised two little girls who needed a decent father.

DD is 23. Her intended is 32. She's known since she was 17 that she has a hormone imbalance that makes conceiving a child difficult. He's actually extra perfect for her because he already has children. They want to try to have a child together, but if it doesn't happen he won't be missing out on fatherhood and she will be able to be a step-mother and friend to his kids.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> Awesome safety!
> 
> A smart man knows when to shut the hell up. Biding your time while J is busy with the baby and renovating/decorating is probably best. Plenty of time to bring it up later if you need to. For all we know, J's whole way of thinking about the subject will change.
> 
> ExH had two children by two different women before we met. I didn't know until after I was pregnant with DD#1. He hasn't been involved at all with either of them and owes over $200,000 in child support. He had the girls with me during our disaster of a marriage. He's never paid support and went a bit over a decade without seeing them. He has a son and daughter with his new wife. Those kids have been in foster care since about a year and a half ago. Apparently, he and his wife were found guilty of felony child neglect due to their failure to supervise the children and clean the house.
> 
> DD#1 moved down to SC to go to a training program while living with her paternal grandparents. She stayed on through her grandfathers cancer and passing, but her relationship with her father is strained, to say the least. A plethora of reasons as to why ranging from domestic violence to his failure to keep a job.
> 
> Here's to DH, who stepped in and raised two little girls who needed a decent father.
> 
> DD is 23. Her intended is 32. She's known since she was 17 that she has a hormone imbalance that makes conceiving a child difficult. He's actually extra perfect for her because he already has children. They want to try to have a child together, but if it doesn't happen he won't be missing out on fatherhood and she will be able to be a step-mother and friend to his kids.


Well it sounds like your daughter has a ready made family and her fiancé seems to be a stand up guy.My mother had some sort of health problem and when she had my brother she was told she would find it impossible to conceive again.Sixteen years later I arrived and it was touch and go if I would survive.I was one of twins and my sister didn't make it.My brother and I are complete opposites and we haven't spoken in almost nine months and that suits me fine.Your husband deserves all the respect in the world and from your writing about him I can tell you love him deeply.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



> I have two pools because I want two ****ing pools and if I want another one I will build it.You want to know how much my house cost,try minding your own business instead.


Hey... just for fun, can you build me a pool? I'll let you use it when you are over on this side of the pond.  I'd want the security as well for safety reasons.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> Hey... just for fun, can you build me a pool? I'll let you use it when you are over on this side of the pond.  I'd want the security as well for safety reasons.


I'm going to have to improve my pronunciation skills because you are about the tenth person who thinks I live in Europe.I spent so long traveling both as a kid and as an adult that I don't even have much of an accent but I was born in NY and live near Boston.
Dig your own pool lol it's not that hard.


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Well it sounds like your daughter has a ready made family and her fiancé seems to be a stand up guy.My mother had some sort of health problem and when she had my brother she was told she would find it impossible to conceive again.Sixteen years later I arrived and it was touch and go if I would survive.I was one of twins and my sister didn't make it.My brother and I are complete opposites and we haven't spoken in almost nine months and that suits me fine.Your husband deserves all the respect in the world and from your writing about him I can tell you love him deeply.


The only fly in the ointment is that they live in SC. First, it's too far away from me. Waaaah! Waaah! The second is that, in this day and age, they have actually been harassed at work and while out and about for being an interracial couple. DD recently left a job because there was a group of people who called her names (n-word loving ***** being the most common) after they saw her fiance when he picked her up from work one day. Here, no one cares. Interracial couples and children are very common in these parts. I'd rather they moved back up north, but he needs to stay put to be there for his kids.

A few months ago, they were driving together and were harassed by a car full of young men. They were run off the road while these "men" shouted racial slurs and made threats. DD and her fellow felt unsafe enough to purchase a carry pistol. Now, here's where I get weird. I got upset because they bought Jimenez. I'd rather they'd purchased a good Sig P320 or even a Ruger LCP II, but a Jimenez? *cringe*.

So, uhh, what's the odds you'll build the kids an underground skate park? Can't let all that smooth cement go to waste.



TaDor said:


> Hey... just for fun, can you build me a pool? I'll let you use it when you are over on this side of the pond.  I'd want the security as well for safety reasons.


Assuming you'd be maintaining your own pool, your wife could say she's fooling around with the pool boy!

My FIL inherited a family business. Everyone worked there at some point or other. When MIL was asked for the 1000th time what she did for the family business, she completely straight faced said "Sleep with the boss."


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> The only fly in the ointment is that they live in SC. First, it's too far away from me. Waaaah! Waaah! The second is that, in this day and age, they have actually been harassed at work and while out and about for being an interracial couple. DD recently left a job because there was a group of people who called her names (n-word loving ***** being the most common) after they saw her fiance when he picked her up from work one day. Here, no one cares. Interracial couples and children are very common in these parts. I'd rather they moved back up north, but he needs to stay put to be there for his kids.
> 
> A few months ago, they were driving together and were harassed by a car full of young men. They were run off the road while these "men" shouted racial slurs and made threats. DD and her fellow felt unsafe enough to purchase a carry pistol. Now, here's where I get weird. I got upset because they bought Jimenez. I'd rather they'd purchased a good Sig P320 or even a Ruger LCP II, but a Jimenez? *cringe*.
> 
> So, uhh, what's the odds you'll build the kids an underground skate park? Can't let all that smooth cement go to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming you'd be maintaining your own pool, your wife could say she's fooling around with the pool boy!
> 
> My FIL inherited a family business. Everyone worked there at some point or other. When MIL was asked for the 1000th time what she did for the family business, she completely straight faced said "Sleep with the boss."


So racism is still alive and well it seems.I'm sure those "good ole boys"think they are gods gift to humanity when they haven't the intelligence to understand the word.Two things that I really hate are racism and homophobia.My best friend is a gay woman and she took a lot af abuse when she came out.Her own family barely acknowledges her and she is never invited to family get togethers.They are from the south as well.
I went to her home town with her for a wedding years ago and her family thought we were bf/gf and they welcomed me with open arms.Her father actually told me he knew all along that all she needed was a penis inside her and she would be "cured".We didn't put them any wiser and left after the wedding,she has not been home or in contact with her parents since.I can't imagine what it would be like to be a gay black person in this setting.Hell on earth.The gym that I own has a simple policy in regards to racism or homophobia.One comment,however trivial and you will be asked to leave and that applies to staff and members.
I asked J last night did she want to hire an interior designer for the house and she was highly insulted.lol.She said she intends to do it all herself one room at a time and wants to do an online course in design.If she suspected that I manipulated her into this she wouldn't do it so it's happy days around here.All it took was me casually remarking about my cousins house and the hotel room in Dublin and how I must get the house finished and she was hooked.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> So racism is still alive and well it seems.I'm sure those "good ole boys"think they are gods gift to humanity when they haven't the intelligence to understand the word.Two things that I really hate are racism and homophobia.My best friend is a gay woman and she took a lot af abuse when she came out.Her own family barely acknowledges her and she is never invited to family get togethers.They are from the south as well.
> I went to her home town with her for a wedding years ago and her family thought we were bf/gf and they welcomed me with open arms.Her father actually told me he knew all along that all she needed was a penis inside her and she would be "cured".We didn't put them any wiser and left after the wedding,she has not been home or in contact with her parents since.I can't imagine what it would be like to be a gay black person in this setting.Hell on earth.The gym that I own has a simple policy in regards to racism or homophobia.One comment,however trivial and you will be asked to leave and that applies to staff and members.
> I asked J last night did she want to hire an interior designer for the house and she was highly insulted.lol.She said she intends to do it all herself one room at a time and wants to do an online course in design.If she suspected that I manipulated her into this she wouldn't do it so it's happy days around here.All it took was me casually remarking about my cousins house and the hotel room in Dublin and how I must get the house finished and she was hooked.


Racism is a problem everywhere and it has gotten very violent in eastern Europe lately


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



MJJEAN said:


> The only fly in the ointment is that they live in SC. First, it's too far away from me. Waaaah! Waaah! The second is that, in this day and age, they have actually been harassed at work and while out and about for being an interracial couple. DD recently left a job because there was a group of people who called her names (n-word loving ***** being the most common) after they saw her fiance when he picked her up from work one day. Here, no one cares. Interracial couples and children are very common in these parts. I'd rather they moved back up north, but he needs to stay put to be there for his kids.
> 
> A few months ago, they were driving together and were harassed by a car full of young men. They were run off the road while these "men" shouted racial slurs and made threats. DD and her fellow felt unsafe enough to purchase a carry pistol. Now, here's where I get weird. I got upset because they bought Jimenez. I'd rather they'd purchased a good Sig P320 or even a Ruger LCP II, but a Jimenez? *cringe*.
> 
> So, uhh, what's the odds you'll build the kids an underground skate park? Can't let all that smooth cement go to waste.
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming you'd be maintaining your own pool, your wife could say she's fooling around with the pool boy!
> 
> My FIL inherited a family business. Everyone worked there at some point or other. When MIL was asked for the 1000th time what she did for the family business, she completely straight faced said "Sleep with the boss."


Could your daughter have reported this racism even though she left the job.I thought racism was taken very seriously in America a


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Are you still stalking me dude.You don't comment on anything other than my thread,are you really so enthralled with my story.I have two pools because I want two ****ing pools and if I want another one I will build it.You want to know how much my house cost,try minding your own business instead.


Is there any baby news yet,she must be due by noe


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> That is good to hear. It did not sound like Andy.


In the other thread you advised Andy1001 to reach out to his girlfriend's​ family but it's them should apologize to him.And he employs three of her sisters.Do you think he should try to make up with his brother,he is is only sibling.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> That is good to hear. It did not sound like Andy.


In the other thread you advised Andy1001 to reach out to his girlfriend's​ family but it's them should apologize to him.And he employs three of her sisters.Do you think he should try to make up with his brother,he is is only sibling.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> In the other thread you advised Andy1001 to reach out to his girlfriend's​ family but it's them should apologize to him.And he employs three of her sisters.Do you think he should try to make up with his brother,he is is only sibling.


Realistically, it is usually on whoever is strongest to reach out in leadership on matters of reconciliation. 

Andy, I think you are very likely the stronger party in these particular cases.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Realistically, it is usually on whoever is strongest to reach out in leadership on matters of reconciliation.
> 
> Andy, I think you are very likely the stronger party in these particular cases.


Saturday March 11 was Js birthday and earlier that month I asked all three of her sisters would they join us in a local restaurant for dinner,I also invited her parents.Her sisters all refused saying they couldn't go against their mothers wishes.Her parents never replied.I didn't tell J and we went out ourselves.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Saturday March 11 was Js birthday and earlier that month I asked all three of her sisters would they join us in a local restaurant for dinner,I also invited her parents.Her sisters all refused saying they couldn't go against their mothers wishes.Her parents never replied.I didn't tell J and we went out ourselves.


That was a good first step, Andy. Very nice of you. 

Just to be clear, it is certainly up to you how you want to handle these relationships. Human adult relationships work best when they are voluntary, imo. 

If you do want to reconcile with them, I think you will probably have to address their feelings directly, and probably gently. 

I know that may not seem fair. But you have a lot of power. And part of using power responsibly is being willing to reach out first in empathy to others, rather than waiting for them to come to you. You might be waiting a long time if you wait for them to be the leaders.

And Andy, they probably need you.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> That was a good first step, Andy. Very nice of you.
> 
> Just to be clear, it is certainly up to you how you want to handle these relationships. Human adult relationships work best when they are voluntary, imo.
> 
> If you do want to reconcile with them, I think you will probably have to address their feelings directly, and probably gently.
> 
> I know that may not seem fair. But you have a lot of power. And part of using power responsibly is being willing to reach out first in empathy to others, rather than waiting for them to come to you. You might be waiting a long time if you wait for them to be the leaders.
> 
> And Andy, they probably need you.


To be honest if I never spoke to any of them again it wouldn't bother me.However,they are Js family and part of our lives whether I like it or not.The youngest one is the most approachable and she told me that her mother threatened to throw out any of them who stayed in contact with J.They have to be polite to me as I'm their boss.I really thought this would have been resolved by now but Js mother is very stubborn and will not do anything that would be seen as backing down.If you have any ideas I'm all ears.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> To be honest if I never spoke to any of them again it wouldn't bother me.However,they are Js family and part of our lives whether I like it or not.The youngest one is the most approachable and she told me that her mother threatened to throw out any of them who stayed in contact with J.They have to be polite to me as I'm their boss.I really thought this would have been resolved by now but Js mother is very stubborn and will not do anything that would be seen as backing down.If you have any ideas I'm all ears.


Yes, controlling older women (or men, for that matter) can be a real pain in the neck, especially if they feel they have some power they can wield over you. I feel for you and for her girls. For her husband, too.

I would suggest active listening, if you are ever in the same room with her again. Google active listening if you are not familiar with it. 

Or you could send her a letter, and in it explain that you would like to share the joy of seeing your daughter grow with her. You understand that you two see some things differently, but you hope that you can meet and talk some things out. 

Andy, if she is really a piece of work, it may indeed be better to just let her go. Some people are truly not worth the effort. 

Try to be good to J's sisters, though. When your mil dies, they, as the younger generation of the family, will still be around, and will be a comfort to J. Think long term here.

Lol, I bet they can't wait to absolutely spoil your daughter. And those aunties can also come in handy for babysitting.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Yes, controlling older women (or men, for that matter) can be a real pain in the neck, especially if they feel they have some power they can wield over you. I feel for you and for her girls. For her husband, too.
> 
> I would suggest active listening, if you are ever in the same room with her again. Google active listening if you are not familiar with it.
> 
> Or you could send her a letter, and in it explain that you would like to share the joy of seeing your daughter grow with her. You understand that you two see some things differently, but you hope that you can meet and talk some things out.
> 
> Andy, if she is really a piece of work, it may indeed be better to just let her go. Some people are truly not worth the effort.
> 
> Try to be good to J's sisters, though. When your mil dies, they, as the younger generation of the family, will still be around, and will be a comfort to J. Think long term here.
> 
> Lol, I bet they can't wait to absolutely spoil your daughter. And those aunties can also come in handy for babysitting.


This is good advice but I would also tell him to get back in contact with his brother.He seems to blame his brother for his parents dying but has never said what happened.The old woman will be happy if he gives her money but i would give her nothing


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> This is good advice but I would also tell him to get back in contact with his brother.He seems to blame his brother for his parents dying but has never said what happened.The old woman will be happy if he gives her money but i would give her nothing


I hope there will be some softening all around.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I hope there will be some softening all around.


This seems to be a touchy subject he hasn't answered and he usually does.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> I hope there will be some softening all around.


There is nothing soft about the op, he will do what he wants and everyone else can go to hell


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> To be honest if I never spoke to any of them again it wouldn't bother me.However,they are Js family and part of our lives whether I like it or not.The youngest one is the most approachable and she told me that her mother threatened to throw out any of them who stayed in contact with J.They have to be polite to me as I'm their boss.I really thought this would have been resolved by now but Js mother is very stubborn and will not do anything that would be seen as backing down.If you have any ideas I'm all ears.


That's your problem you don't see other people's views.Her mother might just not want to see you or her daughter.Has the baby came yet


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Baby girl born yesterday at seven am.Best birthday present ever.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Is there any baby news yet,she must be due by noe


She had a baby girl yesterday morning.


----------



## Annie123

*Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Baby girl born yesterday at seven am.Best birthday present ever.




Congrats!!! 
And happy birthday 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## giddiot

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> She had a baby girl yesterday morning.




Congratulations, now you guys find out what love really is like. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MJJEAN

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Oh, Andy! I am so happy for you, J, the newly minted big brother, and your baby girl. I hope mother and baby are doing well.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Congratulations, Andy! So happy for you and your family!


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Grats, man!


----------



## Malaise

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Congrats Dad!

Best to Mom and Child


----------



## ZedZ

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Congrats to all...


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Well done Andy


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Baby girl born yesterday at seven am.Best birthday present ever.


How is your girlfriend and baby,are they home yet.Did her mother or father or sisters show up.Have you learned to change a diaper yet.lol


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> How is your girlfriend and baby,are they home yet.Did her mother or father or sisters show up.Have you learned to change a diaper yet.lol


Mom and baby are home and her sisters visited in the hospital.No sign of her parents and I haven't changed any diapers yet.Lol.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Mom and baby are home and her sisters visited in the hospital.No sign of her parents and I haven't changed any diapers yet.Lol.


Don't worry you will change plenty of them before long.It isn't too bad when it's your own baby.Good to see Ms sisters came over to see her,you should invite them to visit in your home immediately.Try including her parents as well,be the bigger man.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

On the other thread you said someone told you that new babies poop doesn't stink but you disagree.lol.If you think it stinks now just wait a few weeks it will stink to high heaven.You get used to it eventually.lol.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

We need an update Andy.How does being a father suit you.You said on another thread that your brother was visiting,how did that go.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> We need an update Andy.How does being a father suit you.You said on another thread that your brother was visiting,how did that go.


I think you are the only person that still reads this thread.My brothers visit went great and as you guys in Ireland say we had a full and frank discussion and strong opinions were voiced on both sides.
I love being a dad and I have learned that I can actually be patient if necessary.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I think you are the only person that still reads this thread.My brothers visit went great and as you guys in Ireland say we had a full and frank discussion and strong opinions were voiced on both sides.
> 
> I love being a dad and I have learned that I can actually be patient if necessary.




Patience is good! How is the boy adjusting to being a big brother?


----------



## just got it 55

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Baby girl born yesterday at seven am.Best birthday present ever.


Andy I never condesend to tell people how to raise thier children never

I only advise them the raise them to make a difference and to be natural leaders to stand up for the rights of others

Be well enjoy your new life it will never be the same

55


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> Patience is good! How is the boy adjusting to being a big brother?


The boy loves his baby sister and it is great to see him with her.He was with me and j in the car when her waters broke.(note to self, clean the car).I tried the old trick of buying him some presents and saying they were from the baby but he wasn't having it.He still took the presents though.lol.
I spent my entire life looking for something and I found it at seven am on March twenty ninth.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Wait till they start crawling... then climbing... then walking... and getting into everything. The poop gets bigger and stinker.

Potty training... mostly done on my end. Can't wait till that is OVER.

But babies grow into kids very very quickly. Arms and legs get longer...


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



just got it 55 said:


> Andy I never condesend to tell people how to raise thier children never
> 
> I only advise them the raise them to make a difference and to be natural leaders to stand up for the rights of others
> 
> Be well enjoy your new life it will never be the same
> 
> 55


Thank you for the advice and I will do my best.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> Wait till they start crawling... then climbing... then walking... and getting into everything. The poop gets bigger and stinker.
> 
> Potty training... mostly done on my end. Can't wait till that is OVER.
> 
> But babies grow into kids very very quickly. Arms and legs get longer...


My attempts at changing her diaper didn't work out so well and I have been threatened with dismissal from that job.But I have a backup plan and I pay the boy to do it when J isn't here.lol.
She has the same traits that I apparently had when I was a baby in that she never cries.My brother told me it used to freak him out when I was a baby and sometimes he would play music really loud just to see if I would react.
I can't wait for when she is old enough to talk and walk.


----------



## jld

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Andy, you said you only sleep an hour to an hour and a half every night, right? Has that just been since you were an adult, or even as a child were you that way?

Is your daughter also not sleeping much?


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



jld said:


> Andy, you said you only sleep an hour to an hour and a half every night, right? Has that just been since you were an adult, or even as a child were you that way?
> 
> Is your daughter also not sleeping much?


When I was a kid I took part in a sleep deprivation study,they recommended drug treatment but my mom refused.I don't have insomnia,I wake up feeling refreshed.People with insomnia are always tired and cranky.My daughter sleeps well and she is asleep beside me right now.


----------



## TaDor

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

They sleep a lot more when they are newborn. Noises and such don't usually freak them out. Its BEST to not make your home abnormally quiet. Keep making your normal household noises and she'll get used to it.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



TaDor said:


> They sleep a lot more when they are newborn. Noises and such don't usually freak them out. Its BEST to not make your home abnormally quiet. Keep making your normal household noises and she'll get used to it.


At the moment me and the boy are watching soccer from the UK and the baby is beside us,the boy has the surround sound on and the baby is still asleep.Long may it last.


----------



## Noble1

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Congrats on how things have worked out for you.

A diaper genie has to be the most important invention ever.

Good luck and enjoy life.


----------



## Diana7

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My attempts at changing her diaper didn't work out so well and I have been threatened with dismissal from that job.But I have a backup plan and I pay the boy to do it when J isn't here.lol.
> She has the same traits that I apparently had when I was a baby in that she never cries.My brother told me it used to freak him out when I was a baby and sometimes he would play music really loud just to see if I would react.
> I can't wait for when she is old enough to talk and walk.


Changing a nappy is easy, and we had to use towelling ones with a safety pin when mine were small. Just do it as few times.


----------



## chatabox

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> At the moment me and the boy are watching soccer from the UK and the baby is beside us,the boy has the surround sound on and the baby is still asleep.Long may it last.




I can vacuum in my kids room when they're asleep, and they won't wake. Noise as a baby is important! 

Keep practising on changing the nappies. You can't keep paying the boy every time. Ask J to teach you. I'm sure she would be impressed that you want to learn from her.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



chatabox said:


> I can vacuum in my kids room when they're asleep, and they won't wake. Noise as a baby is important!
> 
> Keep practising on changing the nappies. You can't keep paying the boy every time. Ask J to teach you. I'm sure she would be impressed that you want to learn from her.


I know how to do it,it's the smell I can't stand.But I have improved (sort of)


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Noble1 said:


> Congrats on how things have worked out for you.
> 
> A diaper genie has to be the most important invention ever.
> 
> Good luck and enjoy life.


Thanks for the good wishes.I think a diaper genie would be a great idea but the in the field testing would be a problem for me.🤔🤔


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> My attempts at changing her diaper didn't work out so well and I have been threatened with dismissal from that job.But I have a backup plan and I pay the boy to do it when J isn't here.lol.
> She has the same traits that I apparently had when I was a baby in that she never cries.My brother told me it used to freak him out when I was a baby and sometimes he would play music really loud just to see if I would react.
> I can't wait for when she is old enough to talk and walk.


Enjoy the time that she is a baby,she will grow up soon enough.Any change with your girlfriends family,have they came​ over to see the baby


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Enjoy the time that she is a baby,she will grow up soon enough.Any change with your girlfriends family,have they came​ over to see the baby


No thaw in family relations as regards Js parents but her sisters did visit when she was in hospital.They have called to the house a couple of times too.


----------



## lisacolorado

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

No. You told her what you meant, and you have no obligation to her if she feels no obligation to you. It's less painful now to deal with your choice than it will be to live with this violation of your faith, and watch more happen.


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



lisacolorado said:


> No. You told her what you meant, and you have no obligation to her if she feels no obligation to you. It's less painful now to deal with your choice than it will be to live with this violation of your faith, and watch more happen.


I think you are in the wrong thread.


----------



## lisacolorado

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Sorry.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> No thaw in family relations as regards Js parents but her sisters did visit when she was in hospital.They have called to the house a couple of times too.


Check your pm box


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

I sent you a pm,use the email address On it.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Time for an update Andy how is fatherhood treating you


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Time for an update Andy how is fatherhood treating you


Fatherhood is great but enough about me.
I seen your post on the other thread about catching your wife with her boss.Is this the guy who you got fired after reporting him and your wife's affair.Kudos to you if it was,if more people acted straight away and threw out unfaithful spouses maybe the cheating *******s would think again.You were lucky you were in Ireland though,in most other countries you would have had to pay her some of the value of the house at least.I got your messages yesterday,for some reason my thread has been screwed up lately and I couldn't see the last few pages.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> Fatherhood is great but enough about me.
> I seen your post on the other thread about catching your wife with her boss.Is this the guy who you got fired after reporting him and your wife's affair.Kudos to you if it was,if more people acted straight away and threw out unfaithful spouses maybe the cheating *******s would think again.You were lucky you were in Ireland though,in most other countries you would have had to pay her some of the value of the house at least.I got your messages yesterday,for some reason my thread has been screwed up lately and I couldn't see the last few pages.


Yes they both got sacked for bringing the company into disreput.He was the regional manager and she was the area manager.She lives in a small apartment now and looks like an old woman.She has begged me to forgive her and I told her I did but I'm never going back with her.It took a lot out of me but I am very happy now with my new girlfriend


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Robbie1234 said:


> Yes they both got sacked for bringing the company into disreput.He was the regional manager and she was the area manager.She lives in a small apartment now and looks like an old woman.She has begged me to forgive her and I told her I did but I'm never going back with her.It took a lot out of me but I am very happy now with my new girlfriend


I forgot to say that the guy that my ex wife was screwing was thrown out by his wife and is now working for a car valeting company.Ireland is a small country and none of the other firms would hire him. 
Karma is a *****.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



phillybeffandswiss said:


> Well, update us when the wedding happens. Good luck.


Well when is the wedding Andy. You've kept us waiting a long time. Or has it happened already, that was a long holiday you took.


----------



## ThaMatrix

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*

Man I would shut that down so fast. So immature.


----------



## VibrantWings

*Introducing Myself...*

......


----------



## Robbie1234

Bump. Andy is getting married right now in Scotland.
Another good man lost.lol.


----------



## sunsetmist

Robbie1234 said:


> Bump. Andy is getting married right now in Scotland.
> Another good man lost.lol.


Congrats and Best Wishes!! Did J's family attend?


----------



## sunsetmist

Robbie1234 said:


> Bump. Andy is getting married right now in Scotland.
> Another good man lost.lol.


Congrats and Best Wishes!! Wedding deets? Did J's family attend?


----------



## Lostinthought61

I hope he got a good prenup in place.


----------



## Adelais

Lostinthought61 said:


> I hope he got a good prenup in place.


I'm sure he does.

Congrats Andy! I hope you and Mrs. Andy have a long and happy marriage!


----------



## Andy1001

sunsetmist said:


> Congrats and Best Wishes!! Wedding deets? Did J's family attend?


Her father and sisters came,her younger sister was bridesmaid.Her mother didn’t show up.


----------



## Andy1001

Araucaria said:


> I'm sure he does.
> 
> Congrats Andy! I hope you and Mrs. Andy have a long and happy marriage!


Thank you.


----------



## Andy1001

Lostinthought61 said:


> I hope he got a good prenup in place.


A watertight one my friend.


----------



## sunsetmist

Andy1001 said:


> Her father and sisters came,her younger sister was bridesmaid.Her mother didn’t show up.



It is MIL's loss--Had she been there, it may have been disruptive. Glad others participated and that all went well. Happy for y'all.

I LOVE Scotland--hope weather was good. Snowy?


----------



## Malaise

Best Wishes Andy.


----------



## Andy1001

sunsetmist said:


> It is MIL's loss--Had she been there, it may have been disruptive. Glad others participated and that all went well. Happy for y'all.
> 
> I LOVE Scotland--hope weather was good. Snowy?


It’s snowing now but we will be back in Edinburgh later today and it’s not snowing there.
Damn cold though!


----------



## skerzoid

Andy1001:

It took me two days to read your entire post. I always council folks to be Strong, Courageous, and Decisive in personal relationships. You showed all of these in the face of adversity from not only family and friends, but from those who read your thread and criticized you. I could not be happier that things have gone full circle for you. 

*An Old Irish Blessing*

May the road rise up to meet you.
May the wind always be at your back.
May the sun shine warm upon your face,
and rains fall soft upon your fields.
And until we meet again,
May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

Good Luck Andy!


----------



## Evinrude58

Congrats Andy.
Hope you got yourself a goodun’. 😊


----------



## BluesPower

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> I am engaged to be married next October,my fiancée is 32 and has a seven year old son from a previous relationship.When we started being exclusive I made a point of saying tattoos were a deal breaker and she laughed and said her fear of needles would rule them out anyway.
> 
> So of course you know what's coming.She informed in front of a lot of her friends on Sunday that she is getting a tattoo on her side to support one of her friends who has had a bereavement.I told her we needed to discuss this alone but her friends all butted in and said it's her body and she can do what she wants.I ended up going home on my own(she lives with her parents but stays in my house overnight when we go out).I met her on Monday and she was furious because I showed her up in front of her friends.
> 
> I asked her what about our agreement and she said she was supporting her friend.I got really angry and told her if her friends meant more to her than me then there was no point going on.I swear this is the first time I ever lost my temper with her but she is adamant this tattoo is happening,and for me not to be so stupid.I really hate tattoos and there is no way we are getting married if she goes through with it.Am I being unreasonable about this.


No you are not unreasonable. If she needs a tat at 32 for whatever reason, and it is a deal breaker for you, the it is what it is. 

The real issue is her doing it in front of her friends in order to shame you into accepting her decision. She knew you would not like it and thought you would cave. 

So that shows a complete lack of respect for you are your feelings from the start. 

What pissed her off is that you had the balls to tell her to FO, and now she thinks she is losing control of you. 

No, bud, you did the right thing. And you need to stand your ground. 

Lose this battle or stay with her after the tat, and you have lost yourself respect. 

She is testing or being selfish, or just stupid. Does not really matter which one. 

If that is what she is doing, guess what, it is a bad sign for a marriage. 

And think about this. Traditionally, when you are married you become one flesh. Do you want to have tats on our flesh? 

No, you are on target with this. And you don't what to let yourself be bullied about something like this. 

Does not bode well for the future relationship...


----------



## personofinterest

Chris Taylor said:


> You set a boundary. She agreed with that boundary and continued not only being a girlfriend but a fiance.
> 
> Now not only has she stepped over that boundary but there was no discussion about it. Plus she told you in front of all her friends as if to box you in a corner.
> 
> Doesn't matter if it was tattoos (which I personally like and could easily say "yes, you are being stupid") or drinking or separate vacations or contacting old flames. Agreements were made, no discussion about changing the agreement and dropping it on you in front of friends. If this is how she operates, time to call off the wedding.


 You are not being unreasonable, and it isn't really about the tattoo. Take the tattoo out of the equation and look how she chose to deal with something that she knew you did not agree with. She is manipulative, she cornered you, she tried to twist it to make you the badd guy. If she has chosen this method to cope with a piece of body art, Imagine what strategies she will use to get her way when it comes to real issues.

This is a big red flag!


----------



## Faithful Wife

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



BluesPower said:


> No you are not unreasonable. If she needs a tat at 32 for whatever reason, and it is a deal breaker for you, the it is what it is.
> 
> The real issue is her doing it in front of her friends in order to shame you into accepting her decision. She knew you would not like it and thought you would cave.
> 
> So that shows a complete lack of respect for you are your feelings from the start.
> 
> What pissed her off is that you had the balls to tell her to FO, and now she thinks she is losing control of you.
> 
> No, bud, you did the right thing. And you need to stand your ground.
> 
> Lose this battle or stay with her after the tat, and you have lost yourself respect.
> 
> She is testing or being selfish, or just stupid. Does not really matter which one.
> 
> If that is what she is doing, guess what, it is a bad sign for a marriage.
> 
> And think about this. Traditionally, when you are married you become one flesh. Do you want to have tats on our flesh?
> 
> No, you are on target with this. And you don't what to let yourself be bullied about something like this.
> 
> Does not bode well for the future relationship...


Yeah @Andy1001 I'm sure you are "sorry" now you didn't toss her on her ass, aren't you? :grin2:


----------



## personofinterest

Dang it. Who resurrected this?????


----------



## Andy1001

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



BluesPower said:


> No you are not unreasonable. If she needs a tat at 32 for whatever reason, and it is a deal breaker for you, the it is what it is.
> 
> The real issue is her doing it in front of her friends in order to shame you into accepting her decision. She knew you would not like it and thought you would cave.
> 
> So that shows a complete lack of respect for you are your feelings from the start.
> 
> What pissed her off is that you had the balls to tell her to FO, and now she thinks she is losing control of you.
> 
> No, bud, you did the right thing. And you need to stand your ground.
> 
> Lose this battle or stay with her after the tat, and you have lost yourself respect.
> 
> She is testing or being selfish, or just stupid. Does not really matter which one.
> 
> If that is what she is doing, guess what, it is a bad sign for a marriage.
> 
> And think about this. Traditionally, when you are married you become one flesh. Do you want to have tats on our flesh?
> 
> No, you are on target with this. And you don't what to let yourself be bullied about something like this.
> 
> Does not bode well for the future relationship...


The post you quoted is two and a half years old.Since then we got back together,had a baby that is twenty months old and got married.
And no ****ing tattoos!!
Thanks for taking an interest though.


----------



## Robbie1234

*Re: Fiancées tattoo.*



Andy1001 said:


> The post you quoted is two and a half years old.Since then we got back together,had a baby that is twenty months old and got married.
> And no ****ing tattoos!!
> Thanks for taking an interest though.


So how is married life suiting you @Andy1001 does it feel any different.


----------

