# How Do I Let Go Enough To Fix My Marriage?



## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

_Altering this today, January 5, 2013. With time to reflect, as my marriage is now all but officially over, I attempted to fix a problem that was never mine to fix. A husband and wife can repair issues that happen within the "circle" of marriage. But if one person goes outside of that circle and gets involved with someone else, the problem is no longer both of the spouses to fix, the cheating spouse must take responsibility and make amends, with big time concessions and openness, if there is ever hope to rebuild trust. Thanks to bad counseling (a big thank you *sarcasm* to marriage counselors who never held her accountable for her actions), instead of standing up for myself, I was broken down, and not only did my wife never even try, she repeated the same action again, visiting the man nearly 2 years after the last visit. *NEVER EVER *try to fix a problem that wasn't your problem to fix in the first place. _

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Cliff notes: Wife wasn't happy in marriage, never told me, went to see an ex, didn't sleep with him, but I found out and then found out about a lot of other dishonest stuff. My own behavior (immature anger issues) had stifled our communication. We were both to blame for a lot. 

So now, trying to fix things, my wife isn't sure she is IN love with me but that she does love me. I believe we can save this relationship... 

But I can't stop being clingy  I am so hopelessly lost right now, add to that my job issues I am having, I make 60K a year in a good job and support her going to school, but I may not have that job soon. I have never been this scared in my entire life, I can't find joy in anything. I am currently taking Celexa for depression and Lorazapam as needed for anxiety. 

Trying individual counseling but he seems to just want to repeat everything back to me that I've told him, then my wife always wants to know how counseling went but she gets very sad and upset when I tell her... 

How does a man who loves his wife and kids so much, let go enough to give his wife the space and get back on his feet and back to the man she once loved? I'm tired of fretting about "she did this to me", I want to forgive and move on, I want to get my life back, only better.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

The people I especially want to hear from are those who have been in my shoes, and somehow got back to being okay again. I want to know tips to getting there. I really really don't want my family destroyed by my own inability to get past this My wife says "I feel like I've traded an angry man for a sad man".


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

It sounds like it has similarities to my own situation. Let me offer something that's helped, and I posted this in another thread so I'm copying and pasting

I had been frustrated. I ran a Yahoo search on the search term "How do I stop my wife from being angry" and I read an article which said that when my wife is angry, look her in the eyes and listen. When she's done, say this:

"Thank you, sweetheart, for telling me what is in the depths of your heart. I relish and appreciate openness and emotional intimacy with you. I'm not very good at it, but I intend to get better. In the meantime, if I were in your shoes, I'd feel the same way you do. You have good reasons to be angry."

I printed this out and taped it to the ceiling over the couch where we usually sit.

Before the epiphany, I'd get defensive when she got angry or I'd react in ways that only inflamed her anger further. In a heightened emotional state, we as humans aren't going to be rationalized out of that state.

I've found that this approach has helped my wife react better to my own frustrations, and I can recognize when she reacts defensively to me and tell her "hold on, just listen and acknowledge my frustration."


As for your subject question. You get clingy because you're uncertain. It gets easier to not be as clingy if you can get rid of that uncertainty. When I had my epiphany, it difused a lot of nervous energy.

You're going to therapy - why not both of you together?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

My wife reacts differently... she is very quiet and it is really really difficult to determine when she is angry. We have been together for 10 years (married for 7) and she now tries to say the entire time has been a living hell for her. This is not true, if it were, as I asked her, why would she have married me? Most of the trouble happened after my deployment, but I would ask her over and over when she was moody or depressed "What's wrong?" and she would insist over and over again that "It's not you sweety". She now says it was because she was afraid of how I would react if she told me that she's unhappy, or about other things. 

In reality I feel this is only part of the issue, that she has trouble even being honest with herself. She has pinned her unhappiness on me, when in reality it seems that she isn't sure where she is at in life. Now she's in an expensive school that we can barely afford, well, basically CAN'T afford but I'm selling my soul to help her get through because I believe in US, not just her. 

We did go to marriage counseling together but then our counselor found out he couldn't consult military couples outside of his regular practice as a contracted counselor with the Air Force (I'm Army, so that ruined that).


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

She needs to cut off all contact with her ex and either commit to the marriage or not. No half-a$$ing this thing.

You need to get help for you anger/immaturity issues. No woman wants to be with an angry man. No way, Jose. 

Get into marriage counselling, both of you. Get some relationship books. Work on communicating. Tell eachother what you need from eachother and work on it together.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Pol,

Read more here especially in the section of Coping With Infidelity forum. 

Read about wives and the ILYBNILWY (I love you but not in love with you) effect. This is often a sign that a wife has checked out of a marriage.

There are a ton of posters here who can help you but please be careful whose advice you follow.

I wish you luck


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Take a step back and look at your response... You're rationalizing why the things your wife is telling you about your feelings aren't true.

They are feelings, not facts, and even if there is factual inaccuracy, she feels - right now - as if her memory of your entire marriage is that she was in living hell the whole time. You try to tell her otherwise, and that sends signals that her feelings are minimally important to you, you don't understand, you don't listen and you only validate the negative feelings she has.

She's closed her line of communication with you, she'd rather not communicate than experience the hurt that comes with communicating.

If she dislikes something you've done, she should be able to say so - let her.

She'll need to feel safe doing so, right now she doesn't.

I don't know the situation, but that's the kind of realization that helped me. Ponder it. Maybe I'm wrong and it's something different.


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## growtogether (Feb 27, 2012)

Hello
Like Jellybean said, she needs to commit....
Where is your marriage commitment right now? If you ask yourself and her where do I situate myself on a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being not committed and 10 truly committed, where are you? Ask yourself and ask your wife. 
When both of you know exactly where you are situate on the scale, both of you need to take a decision. Do we want to commit more to or marriage together and work for it, or do we want to turn the page and see what's next?
It's important that both of you talk about this decision because the fact to hear both of you saying the 'YES' for that commitment will empower your relationship.
When you did take your decision, let's take action!


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

You are being clingy? Your wife says she wants space? Can you explain a little more about what you mean about giving her space--very specifically?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> She needs to cut off all contact with her ex and either commit to the marriage or not. No half-a$$ing this thing.


She is trying, I know that I can't FORCE her to do it, I'm trying to support her through this as best I can, she is in that stage of "I don't want to lose my friend" and knows she needs to get to "I can't be friends with this person if I respect myself or my marriage". 



> You need to get help for you anger/immaturity issues. No woman wants to be with an angry man. No way, Jose.


I am getting help with my anger and immaturity problems. I am no longer treating the way I was. BUt like I said, it has gone from my being angry to my being sad all the time. I feel like I'm slowly getting better but it is very difficult, one day at a time. The realization that your perfect relationship was in fact a disaster is one that is so hard to take, even a year later. 



> Get into marriage counselling, both of you. Get some relationship books. Work on communicating. Tell eachother what you need from eachother and work on it together.


I have been working on communicating with her, we did go to marriage counseling for awhile, it seemed to work. She is having a lot of trouble admitting that she actually needs me, in the meantime she talks about how two people shouldn't have to NEED each other, but to me that is NOT what a marriage is all about. When I say that though, I know that if she is confused about her feelings, it is hard to admit that you need someone, I've been there before.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> You need to get help for you anger/immaturity issues. No woman wants to be with an angry man. No way, Jose.


This can have more impact on your marriage than you think. What have you done/are you doing to address your anger issues? An angry spouse can drive their spouse away. Anger can cause a spouse to shut down, to not trust the angry spouse, to not feel a bond with the angry spouse, to simply not want to communicate with an angry spouse. That's about where I am with my own angry spouse. 

Take care.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Toffer said:


> Pol,
> 
> Read more here especially in the section of Coping With Infidelity forum.
> 
> ...


I've been following that section, I really believe my key to getting things better is to back off for awhile, she's going to visit her mom in Wisconsin (8 hours away) for a couple of weeks next month.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

It sounds like you're taking the right first steps. Keep at it. Communicate. And remember that you both are aware of the need for change, and saying you're changing is good, but explaining that you realize why you need to change, how you need to change and what you're doing to make that change - that is much better. Actions speak louder than words. Good luck man.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Is it at all possible that she met someone at school that she is involved with? She is searching for some out side male attention, maybe she found it. 

I would put a temporary moratorium on school if you need to. The integrity of the marriage is in jeopardy and I think you should see if it will survive. You are investing money that you don't have towards a future that seem uncertain. 

Come to her with a plan, work on the marriage and see if it will survive and then proceed with your plans for her school.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Is it at all possible that she met someone at school that she is involved with? She is searching for some out side male attention, maybe she found it.
> 
> I would put a temporary moratorium on school if you need to. The integrity of the marriage is in jeopardy and I think you should see if it will survive. You are investing money that you don't have towards a future that seem uncertain.
> 
> Come to her with a plan, work on the marriage and see if it will survive and then proceed with your plans for her school.


She's not involved with anyone from school, at least not in the "affair" sense, she has a group of them she likes to hang out with, go to movies with, etc, because she never really got to enjoy college when she was their age (She is 33 years old). 

As far as the rest, I understand what you are saying but her not going to college would very well likely ruin our marriage for sure, because this is the first time she's felt like she's contributing, that she believes in herself, and that she has hope for the future.

Honestly, though, I want to focus on MYSELF in all of this. All of these "She needs to do this or that" suggestions are not going to help much because I can't force her to do anything, and until I fix myself up right, it is not doing much good for me to try and dictate the course of my marriage.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I'd like to clarify something here, I am no longer angry with her all the time, I do not handle my anger immaturely, like I had said, my wife states that it is like she traded an angry man for a very sad man. 

I do not discount her reasons, and I take responsibility for my hand in the problems with our relationship, however, when your spouse is sad and you repeatedly try to find out why and she further alienates you, then pines so hard over an ex boyfriend that she actually writes "I am not sure if my marriage is really that bad or if my love for (other man) is causing me all these problems?" then it becomes quite apparent that her reasoning is, at the very least, flawed. 

Like I said though, I am letting it go, it is about fixing myself. I don't go to her and tell her that she's WRONG for what she believes, I am just trying hard to let her have space right now as best I can. We still live together, sleep in the same bed, have sex from time to time, I am doing my part to try and be a good husband, it is just sometimes hard because I feel very stressed.


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## Njadh01 (Aug 9, 2011)

Echoing others, sorry to hear you're going through this situation. Speaking from experience...anger is rooted in feelings of low self-esteem. Once you feel better about yourself, calmer in yourself, and love yourself a little more....it will come across to her. Whether or not she feels "too little too late" is not your concern. You are the one who has to make the positive changes...for yourself...not for her and not to "save the marriage". There are two sides to love. You can only take care of your side.


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## ZacThomas (Mar 5, 2012)

Your situation seems similar to mine. But that time I stood calmly and consulted a counselor. It really worked out me. You can also try it for once.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, she wants a divorce. 

She came out today and stated that she has been unhappy this entire last year, for different reasons. She says she has "tried to make this work" but that now she is "unhappy and sad and only feels comfortable when it is just her and the kids", which I don't understand, I've been more supportive, doing dishes more, more meals, etc. 

She said earlier today that she is done. She said that she tried this last year but that she never "got that feeling" back. 

Now I'm devastated. I look at my kids and I get choked up, I wanted to fix this, I wanted to make things okay, I knew I wasn't the best husband but I was pretty dang good and a very good father to my children. 

I just don't know now what I'm even going to do. Everything in my life is wrapped around my wife and my two children, 4 and 2 years old (girl and boy), now I'm utterly destroyed... 

What do you do when you still love your spouse more than anything? What do you do when you've allowed yourself to be nearly dehumanized over the course of a year as you try and fix things? What do you do when they just tell you all the time that they are "unhappy" and now they say they only said "I love you because I didn't want to hurt you"...  

I don't want to give up on us, should I? Should I just say to hell with this and give up? After a year of waiting for something to change, and now her talking about separating and a divorce all at once? I want to fight to save this but I don't know even what I'm fighting for anymore, I'm a man in tears right now...


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oh, Pol. You'll get lots of advice about what to do, but until that kicks in, I'm just sending you a big hug. It's a hard, hard thing to hear. My thoughts will be with you tonight.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

That stuff I posted before helped me, but I was still on the path to my wife moving out until I read Married Man's Sex Life and that's what really dealt with the spark my wife needed from me. If that advice hasn't already been given, then read it tonight as a download from Amazon.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm a huge fxxxing failure, at everything. I can't make my marriage work, my job may end in August, now I'm going to lose my kids, and who knows what else. Not to mention losing my wife, whom I love so tremendously. I tried so hard, and thought we got so far, but she utterly shattered my heart today, just smashed it. I haven't even gotten so far as to think about what we are going to do with the kids, it hurts me even more to think about them trying to understand why mommy and daddy aren't raising them together... i sit here with tears streaming down my face thinking about it. I do NOT want this to happen... WHY did she have kids with me if she wasn't sure about things????? This is NOT fair... this is not how things are supposed to be. And Father's Day tomorrow, happy day for me oh joy  All I ever wanted I had, the house, the wonderful wife, the amazing 2 kids... why... WHY??? This just plain sucks so bad.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

It does suck, Po. It sucks big ones. But you do not suck.

I know you don't believe that right now, but just take it on faith.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I just want to go to bed and wake up and have this all have been a bad dream. I don't want to have to explain to my children that "mommy and daddy are not going to be together anymore"... I hear them playing in the other room, they should be sleeping but i don't have the heart to yell at them tonite, my 4 year old, she knows something is up, she was trying most of the day to hug me and just talk to me about whatever... so precious, I love them both so much.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Po, what you're going through is tough, no doubt. It sucks big time. But the key to all of it is learning to like and value yourself. It may be too late to save your marriage, or it may not. None of us a crystal ball that will predict what will happen when both the mad man and the sad man are gone, but I can guarantee you that when you find happiness in yourself, everything will look better and you'll feel a sense of hope. 

Some of that just takes time, but you need to work on you. If you are unhappy and feel like your counselor is just repeating things back to you, find another counselor. It sounds like you're seeing a psychoanalyst, which is perhaps not the best choice for you. If necessary, get on Tricare standard and shell out the 20% to see someone who is going to be more helpful. 

In the meantime, practice positive affirmations. Look at yourself and talk to yourself in the bathroom mirror at least every morning, if not several times a day - NO MATTER HOW SILLY IT FEELS. Remind yourself of the things you've done that are successful. Remind yourself of the people who love you and why they do. Remind yourself that you're a strong guy and while you may feel down sometimes, you'll always emerge stronger and better than before.


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## Paradise (Dec 16, 2011)

Po, 

Buddy, I know you are hurting right now. From what I have heard from your story it sounds almost exactly like mine. I contributed to the downfall of my marriage. I did a lot of things wrong. But....So did my ex wife. We both contributed to it. I got angry and bitter over a stretch of about 5 months. That's all it took to make our entire marriage into the worst thing ever for her. The entire history was re-written in that amount of time. THat's all it took for another man to take my place. I got help after that but it was too late for my ex. 

I worked my ass off trying to save things after that point. I made a damn fool of myself is what I did. I should have used that time to just work on myself and give the ex her room and figure out what I wanted and needed out of life. Instead, I spent the entire divorce process trying to figure out a way to save my marriage like I had for the prior 5 or 6 months. I spent a year becoming something that I am ashamed of. I've also spent the last year being divorced trying to process all of it. I'm a totally different man today than I was then. 

Here's the deal. Nothing anyone is going to say to you is going to help ease the pain right now. Cry away as needed. You are hurting and scared but at the same time you have to take care of yourself through all of this. It is going to get worst before it gets better. I'm assuming, like my ex, that your wife already has her exit strategy in place and is already seeing this other dude. You are way behind in this mess. 

Here are a few things you must do and pronto....

First, talk to your family. Let them know what is going on. You will need their emotional support. I could not have made it through this without my parents. 

Second, get your finances figured out. If you have credit cards I would put a hold on them. My ex took money out of our joint account to pay for a lawyer behind my back. Plus she wracked up lots of credit card debt. I'm still paying for that now. 

Start looking for lawyers. Even if your wife changes her mind you must find out what you need to do to protect yourself. Talk to 2 or 3 different ones and figure out what you can do. Find someone that specializes in getting maximum time with the kids for the dad. This is where my entire focus was in my divorce. I'm going to have to go another round in this area next year because my ex wife's child support from her first husband is going to be over and she is going to be coming after me for money after next year. You must have a plan in place here. 

Next, find a counselor. I think you said something in one of your threads about being military. If this is the case contact the military and find out about counseling services. Perhaps they can help you. You need to sort through your feelings early on. Remember, you are behind. 

Sorry for the book but I just went through this a year ago and I was a mess and didn't wake up in time. Don't make the same mistake. Work on you, focus on the kids, if she wants a divorce do not try to change her mind. It will do absolutely no good to beg and plead for anything. 

Message me if you need anything. This is going to be the toughest test of your life if you are anything like I am and from reading your post it sounds too similar. 

Good luck and God Bless.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

When she gave you the speech "I love you but not in love with you" and also went to see her ex, she had checked out of her marriage.

That speech is what a cheater usually gives the betrayed spouse.

Dont be surprised if there is someone else in her life already.



Read up on the 180. Do it. Note that the 180 is to help you, not to get her back.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Thank you for the advice. RIght now she is still in the house with me. 

She refuses to talk about anything, she says "I'm done, I don't want to argue" when in fact everytime we have a conversation she can't rationally talk she blows up about it, which is what I USED to do but now I try to use the effective communication strategies like "So what I am hearing is that you..." and "I feel as though, when you say this, that you..." but even that isn't working now. Rational conversations to her become "arguments" any time that something being said doesn't seem to fit in with what her view of the situation is. 

As far as the other person in her life, the only person I know of is this unhealthy obsession she has over a guy she met 12 years ago, had sex with (before we were together) then made contact with again (didn't have sex), he is married with 2 kids. She has been adamant about not wanting to be with him, about him "not being an issue", despite my having seen some of what she wrote about him in her journal, "can't ever love someone again like him" and so forth. She is in love in her mind with a guy from 12 years ago who never really did exist, he is a womanizer, I've seen his kind before, he had sex with her and then disappeared for several months, didn't return her calls, didn't answer emails, just POOF vanished after getting the sex. 

I don't understand anything anymore, I don't know why she is so unhappy. We went to a marriage retreat in April and it went so wonderful, it felt like we were turning over a new leaf. But twice since then we've had disagreements and both times she ran right too the "I'm done, I can't do this anymore" point, which 1) stabs me right in the heart, again and again, and 2) leaves me with no recourse, it corners me in a situation where I either a) say "screw it then, just go, or b) "oh we are okay baby, everything is okay, I'm sorry" when I DO NOT KNOW WHAT THE HELL I AM APOLOGIZING FOR :_( Then I end up nearly in tears later by myself wondering where the MAN in me has gone. 

This just isn't fair, not fair at all... It isn't fair for me, it most CERTAINLY is not fair for our children. I don't even know how to start working in protecting myself in divorce proceedings. I don't want to go to war with this woman *sigh* The woman that I love is circling the wagons against ME though so I'm stuck now.

Add to that my job situation is changing rapidly and my 60K a year job may be over here in the next couple months, which makes things worse, I have maybe 5K in savings now, because I've paid so much money for day care and for her car and other things so she could continue to go to school full time. How do I use all my savings to get a lawyer, and leave me with nothing??? 

I don't know what to do with her still in the house, it is like, the last thing I want is for her to leave, you know? I want her here, I want my kids here. I am in Nebraska, she is talking about going to Wisconsin with the kids, says things like "Oh it is okay you'll be able to have the kids each summer" AND GOD DXXXIT I DO NOT WANT TO SPEND 9 MONTHS OUT OF THE YEAR WITHOUT THEM!!! Even the thought of it makes me want to explode. I do not want to be 10 hours from my children.

What can I do here, so much is floating in my head, all I want to know is WHY she is so unhappy, and how I can help, but she doesn't want to talk about anything. 

This past year we had two goals, one for each of us, when it came to our marriage counseling.

1) I needed to be nicer and cater more to her needs, listen better.

2) She needed to communicate better and let me know what she is feeling.

I feel like I fulfilled my part, to the point where I became an emotional idiot trying to figure out what was going on in her head, she tried at times to talk to me, but more often than not she seemed to clam up and revert back to the way it was before, quiet and putting a smile on her face like nothing is wrong. 

I have to try and keep my head up, I have to maintain myself, I know all of this, but I've never had to do anything like this before. This is without a doubt the worst 24 hours of my life. It doesn't hurt as much as it did a year ago March when she told me she wasn't happy and didn't love me, but I still never expected to do all this work, self counseling, marriage counseling, medication, etc, only to have her just go right back to that same place and tell me now for sure she wants out...


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

The nice guy routine is not working. I'll make this short. Please respond. Have you or have you not yet read Mallrried Man's Sex Life? The question is a bit rhetorical, I doubt you have because you sound out of control.

I'll try again getting this through to you, I think I was a bit out of control but not as bad as you. Reading that book turned it around. I'm keeping this short in hopes I get your attention. You want a long explanation to convince you to take my recommendation, I'll give it.

Here's the short version. My wife was leaving me because I was a wimp to her and she wanted a man. Trying to listen to her words made no sense. Being nice and being rational didn't work. Counseling didn't work. Reading the book and becoming a man WORKED.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I will download that book and start reading it, but I have to tell you, she is already talking divorce, and she wants out completely, and right now she does NOT want to talk about it. I don't know if this can help, can it? the Book?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Okay I'm reading the book but my first impression is that it talks a lot about sex, and in some ways that is a problem but right now it is not the major problem, is there a lot more in this book that is helpful outside of the bedroom?


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Are you Active Duty or Reserves?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I am active duty in the Army National Guard, meaning I work full time for them. I have 22 years total in, of which the last 5 or so years have been active duty. I really thought I found what I love but the "permanent" job never showed up for several of us like they promised, and my marriage issues made my work performance suffer, then the cut backs in Washington hit us really hard where we work, we only got about 10% of the funds we asked for, so a lot of the jobs that have been "long term" temporary are now being put on the cutting board. So we are scrambling to get onto the AGR program but there are 18 to 26 applications for EVERY job that is out there, and with me having marriage problems it makes me very emotionally vulnerable and difficult to feel good about myself, and confident, assured, etc, when I go into these interviews.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Thank you for filling me in, that was very helpful.
My husband is AD Army. 
I want to say I'm so sorry that you're going through this right now.
Okay,first things first, you need to get your emotional well being under control.
Go see your doctor, let them know what is going on, that you're feeling anxious & it's effecting your job performance.
Hopefully they will prescribe something that will help you short term.
Mind you, this is just to help take the edge off, to help you even out, I'm not normally a drug advocate, but there is a time when they are needed. 
Second, get some counseling, just so you talk to someone, you've got so much anxiety built up, it could eventually explode if you don't get it out.
Have you called Military One Source?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I have seen the doctor, he is air force, they have given me celexa and other things to combat the problems, the counseling isn't actually working all that well though. I'm just so tired all the time. I have called military one source, did so for the marriage counseling. I also have access to the VA as a veteran, I'm just so turned off about counseling right now. I am getting more and more of these feelings wondering why i'm even here anymore  the disappointment that I'm dealing with today is so huge, I have dealt with it all last year because I felt like she wasn't giving it the effort it needed and I was giving too much effort. I don't know what I'm going to do, I want to make this work, she hasn't left the house yet, but if she doesn't love me anymore what option do I have at that point?  

I am trying to read that book but I am wondering what part of it really points out to my situation. Never had a kindle online book on my phone before so it is hard to "Skim" like I would with a regular book to find what I need.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Have you tried Xanax?
I have had horrible anxiety attacks since my husband deployed & it's worked miracles to take that edge off.
I can now function without feeling as if I literally going to spin out of control from my own body.
Once again, I'm not normally an advocate of drugs, I think they do have a place when needed. 

Please, please seek counseling, do not give up, you're in a bad place mentally right now & it won't get better on its own.
You can't make her love you, you can love yourself & your children, the best way to do that is to get whatever help you need to be better mentally.

Do a 180, for yourself & for your sanity.
Your focus needs to be on you & your game plan.
Because she has already checked out from the marriage, it's time for you to do what you need to do to protect yourself.
Go to JAG & find out as much info as you can, this will also ensure that she can't see them before you do since they can only assist one of you.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Okay, I'm going to get with JAG then and go from there on the legal side. 

*sigh* I am really up and down today, but not as bad as I thought I would be. I guess after a year of this, it is hard for it to actually get worse. I never thought it was easy on my wife, my anxiety and issues, but she had anxiety/depression going into our relationship and I never questioned her, I would put my arms around her and tell her things are going to be okay.

Even recently I would tell her that, when she would start by wanting to know what the counselor and I talked about, then she'd find out and get extremely angry, tell me things like "GO GET A GIRL TO FXXX IF YOU THINK WE AREN"T INTIMATE ENOUGH"(intimacy is only partially that, mostly not), calling me an AXXHOLE repeatedly, and saying "IF I COULD GO BACK IN TIME I'D HAVE NEVER EVER CAME TO EVEN SEE YOU!" implying that the marriage would have never happened. 

Then she would start bawling, sit in the bathroom, and I would end up putting my arms around her, and telling her it is okay, all the while she would talk about how she was "an awful person" and "I fail at everything I do" and so forth. I would calm her and tell her over and over that she is awesome, and then like a fool end up apologizing for whatever it was that caused everything in the first place, a lot of the time things she had done.

I really believe what happened overall was that we had dreams of getting a house, and having children. I felt everything was wonderful, and I'll be honest, I think she did too (she tends to forget anything good now). Then we had our first child, got our house, we had a second child (she said she was okay being a stay at home mom) and shortly there after things started getting worse.

I didn't see it at first, my job was very stressful, I was working a lot of hours and such, but she would spend more time in bed when I got home, drinking more wine, I would ask "Hey is everything okay?" and it was always "It's not you, it's me" and it would frustrate me, not only because it wasn't much of an answer but because I felt left out of my marriage, like she suddenly didn't want to be available emotionally. 

Of course, huge warning sign but I failed to act on it then, may have been a big difference now. Ultimately it appears, and my friends believe this, that she doesn't know what she wants, at all, but that she is unhappy, and it is easier for her to manifest all the unhappiness on me and our marriage, and say "I would be better off single taking care of the kids", than to actually take responsibility for her own happiness WITHIN the marriage and work on our relationship, and realize that yes, she does mean the world to her husband and he's willing to do most anything to make things work. She's not sure what she wants out of life, she never has been, so now she wants out of the marriage.

At this point I know I have to let her go, we are sleeping in the same room though and I wonder if it would be better if we slept in different rooms? I am wondering if it would be better if I went to my parents. 

I have like 1 thousand questions in my head, I don't know how to prepare for a divorce, I know I need to call JAG and they will help, but I'll be honest, I still want to fight for her... but she's saying "I WANT OUT, I DO NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT" 

Why am I so stupid to fight for someone who says she doesn't love me anymore??? Have any of you who believed you didn't love your significant other, ever come back around to realizing "oh wow, he/she is wonderful and I am in love with them!!" I know, that is maybe a pipe dream or miracle but I am looking for hope


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Have any of you who believed you didn't love your significant other, ever come back around to realizing "oh wow, he/she is wonderful and I am in love with them!!" I know, that is maybe a pipe dream or miracle but I am looking for hope


My husband would qualify as one of those people. The way he changed his mind about me is that _I_ changed. I changed over a period of about 3 years, so it took quite a while. And every single change I made, I made for myself.

People are not attracted to someone who lacks self-confidence. It's very simple. People will like someone, even if they disagree with them, even if they're not that physically attractive, as long as that person has a strong sense of self. Self-respect, self-assurance--not allowing people to treat them like crap. Those are the people that draw others to them. 

Self-respect and self-assurance come about by knowing yourself extremely well and playing to your strengths. You need to spend your free time doing chores and activities that also help you feel better about yourself. Play to your passions and strengths. Find a way to do what you enjoy.

Another excellent way to build up who you are is to volunteer. Nothing will quite snap you out of a funk like working at your local food pantry. You will encounter people there who have very little in life, but they manage to survive and make the best of it. Of course they also may be very down, but you are helping them when they are backed into a corner. This takes you out of yourself and stops you from focusing so much on your own problems.

Again, these changes have to be as selfish as they can be. In a good way. If you try to mold yourself into someone you're not, well that's as opposite to self-confidence as you can get. If you make changes so someone else will like you, you will decrease your self-respect rather than boost it up.

Another book recommendation for you is No More Mr. Nice Guy--that is often suggested hand-in-hand with Married Man Sex Life. But MMSL has a lot in there that isn't about sex, so keep reading.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

This makes a lot of sense, because my wife has gotten a job working from home, her self confidence has gotten better, but when she visited that man a year ago it destroyed my self confidence. I still don't understand why neither counselor we went to wanted to talk about her visiting another man, I've forgave her because I thought it would help but now I'm sad and going through all the different issues leading up to this over and over in my head. I'm honestly trying not to do this but it is hard. 

I also know that she believes she will be just fine without me, with just her and the two kids, and I'm scared for my children. My wife made about 300 bucks a month the first 10 months or so she did transcription, recently she's gotten into QA (she works from home) and that is doing a lot better, but even she is not sure how long it will last. 

I make 60K a year and I'm having trouble making ends meet, with day care and her in school full time (this is summer, that is how she is able to make more money). Obviously now she isn't going back to school, but I am sad about the fact that now I'm going to be stuck shelling out a bunch of money when I can't even be with my kids every day. 

Meh, I'm all over the place today, I feel so mixed up and betrayed.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Okay I'm reading the book but my first impression is that it talks a lot about sex, and in some ways that is a problem but right now it is not the major problem, is there a lot more in this book that is helpful outside of the bedroom?


Okay. Short answer is absolutely yes.

Look, the bottom line is your wife - in spite of every rational reason in the world - is not attracted to you, maybe even is repelled by you. The reasons for this are the same as the reasons she won't have sex. The reasons for this are the same reason you would have a hard time taking a commanding officer seriously if they acted the way you're acting.

Don't let the focus on sex distract you from the message. If it helps, just substitute the idea of getting sex from your wife with getting respect from your wife and being able to attract your wife's desire.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Okay, that puts things into better perspective. I'm going to keep reading this book and I'm going to try and get back into range fire this week, my MSG had pulled me out based on personal issues at home but I think I'm going to try and put myself back into it again.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Okay, that puts things into better perspective. I'm going to keep reading this book and I'm going to try and get back into range fire this week, my MSG had pulled me out based on personal issues at home but I think I'm going to try and put myself back into it again.


Good for you!
Remember, keep the focus on YOU, get yourself well & everything else will fall into place, including your career.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

WillK said:


> Okay. Short answer is absolutely yes.
> 
> Look, the bottom line is your wife - in spite of every rational reason in the world - is not attracted to you, maybe even is repelled by you. The reasons for this are the same as the reasons she won't have sex. The reasons for this are the same reason you would have a hard time taking a commanding officer seriously if they acted the way you're acting.
> 
> Don't let the focus on sex distract you from the message. If it helps, just substitute the idea of getting sex from your wife with getting respect from your wife and being able to attract your wife's desire.


That makes more sense. The thing I have going for me is that she is still in the house with me and may be for some time, but I don't know if that is a good thing or not 

She is getting set to go see her parents for 2 weeks over 4th of July so that should be helpful, but I want to do more reading in this book and on this forum in order to start turning things around for me.

All of you are really helping me through this hard time right now. For the first time I'm realizing that my wife's unhappiness has very little to do with me and that the more I try to fix it, by bending and becoming something I'm not, the more unhappy I end up becoming and the less respect she has for me as a man, and the less chance I have of actually fixing any of this.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

For some reason I'm no longer able to see replies to this thread?

Okay, in Explorer I can see it, but not in Mozilla. Odd.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

So I am not into Chapter 6 of The Married Man Sex Life Primer, and it is really an eye opener. A lot of what I'm seeing is something I believe I was aware of on an unconcious or even concious level but seeing it laid out like that makes the pieces all go together.

One year ago when my wife went to see this other man was when the first "I love you but I'm not in love with you" happened. So in turn, rather than address that like I should have, in counseling it was advised that I work on being more responsible to my wife, nicer, in other words, BETA, when in fact I should have been more ALPHA about what had happened. 

To this day she does not feel she did anything wrong, despite having written in her journal leading up to meeting with the other man things like "I can't stop thinking about his penis" and "I don't know if I can ever love another man as much as him", along with disparaging things about me. So it is no surprise the ILYBINILWU came up right then.

That isn't to say I was innocent in all of this, I wasn't meeting her needs in many areas, I was being away too ALPHA negative toward her in certain situations and in public situations to others, bad wait staff, drivers that did stupid things, I drove aggressively, etc. 

So I decided to make changes in my life, I drove slower, started being nicer to the wait staff, started being more courteous to people, and this all seemed to make her happy, at first, but then it just seemed after a couple months that she was just as unhappy, if not more unhappy before, because now I was very confused about who I was and how I was supposed to react to anything. 

Then every discussion, and I say DISCUSSIOn because to me they were discussions, if there was a single disagreement within the discussion about an important topic (sex, money, the other man, facebook, my playing warcraft too much, her sleeping too much) it always spiraled immediately to her 1) saying really mean things to me, 2) her storming off to another room and throwing things around 3) *THE WORST ONE* her "I'm done with this, I can't do this anymore, i want out, then up till this last one 4) "I am a horrible person, a bad wife, I never do anything right" etc, till I put my arms around her and I END UP APOLOGIZING just to try and save things. 

By her continually going to the "I want out of this marriage" card, it would drive a stake into my heart, scare me out of my mind, and push me to lose a little more of my masculinity. 

This last time though it seems she is serious, there is little talk at all going on, I asked her about the kids, she just mumbles "they will be okay, I don't want to discuss this" and goes about her day. I believe she is content now, maybe now exactly happy, but relieved because she sees this marriage now ending. Of course I'm distraught but i'm trying hard to hide it. I keep thinking about all the horrible things involved with a divorce, especially with the kids. I keep thinking about how there is no way this should be this bad right now, and WTF happened these past 18 months  

So, the reason I write all of this is that, as I read this book now, I am wondering if it is too late to even implement MAP (male action plan) and expect it to get results? She is 

A) Going to see her parents for the next 2 weeks
B) Already saying she wants out, and although it hurts her to say it, she has said divorce once, albeit quietly 
C) I'm having major job issues that create instability

I really want to work this marriage out. I don't want my kids growing up like this, I don't want to go through life without my best friend (my wife). I just hope this book gives me the options i need to be successful in this, and that it isn't too late.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Okay. Now I will say you've got a start on figuring yourself out. What you need next is a way to get her to notice that you've changed.

Don't anticipate this being as hard as it seems. I offer no guarantees, but I was surprised at how easy it was because my wife WANTED me to change. Your wife probably wants you to change and she's leaving because she's wanted it so long that it has become hopeless to her.

Ignore her saying she wants out.

I can tell you exactly what to do or you can figure it out. If you want me to make recommendations, then tell me more details about her going to see her parents. Has she left? How far away is this? Am I correct in assuming you can't go along due to your job?

If she hasn't left, you're going to create a comfortable situation for her and tell her "Please sit down and listen to what I have to say. I know what you expect to hear because I've been a chump for too long. That changes now. I've been your husband because we got married. I haven't been your man. I realize that now. I am changing to be a man. I want to be your man, but that is your choice if you want it."

That's probably too long to memorize, and it'd be better to say it looking into her eyes. Communicate the sentiment.

Be prepared to be tested. She'll say thing that will push the alpha away. The book is better than me for telling you how to handle that because I still struggle a bit, the one thing you should know is that when you get tested, the way you used to respond is probably the worst way to respond. She tests by trying to take control, so sometimes that's reasonable but when it's not reasonable, don't let her have control.

In this first conversation, she might try to take over the conversation. Maintain control of the conversation, the most likely thing she might try to do is respond based upon your past behavior. This is a good opportunity to emphasize "Look, that was the old me. I realize that when the old me acted that way, it was not what you needed. I am different now." Draw a clear distinction between the old you she hated and the new you she will love.


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## rankinsmedic (Jun 18, 2012)

I printed off the 180. I'm seeing how this could help my current situation. Maybe you should think about doing the same.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Okay, so today went to my counselor, and I've realized one thing: I need to ditch this guy, he's pointless. He sits there and repeats everything back to me and offers ZERO advice, and leaves me feeling barely any better off than i did when I walked in the door. A bartender can do that for me. 

When I got home, my wife was working in her office upstairs, and she came down to tell me that her mom had called her about half a dozen times that morning. Apparently my father and mother had a conversation this morning and decided that it was time to contact HER mom and discuss this situation, first by email, then by telephone. At first I was really freaked out and angry. My dad knew about things that my mom didn't, now apparently both sets of parents know a lot, which, in a strange way, is maybe not the worst thing. 

I called my mom, we talked for about 20 minutes, where she chastised me for reading my wife's journal and snooping in her phone (things I had told my dad, NOT her), and I ended up apologizing (again) to my wife for that. But I also said that we are spending way too much time wrapped around one anothers' happiness for our own good, that we need to get out more, on our own, get more friends outside of the house. We honestly do everything together, which is usually okay but it doesn't give us an outlet to really have fun with friends, then have that "come home to you and tell you what a great time I had!!" moment that is actually kind of nice in a marriage. 

I told her that I am going to stop with the "mopy poor me" that I've been doing, quit complaining about my job and just live my life, regardless, and be happy with what I have. While she seemed receptive to this, she also seemed skeptical, which would make sense, it has been hard for me to hold onto my convictions lately when I get scared that she is hiding stuff from me. I need to get to a place in this marriage where the trust is great enough that I don't CARE what she is hiding. 

So, Will, my plan is to continue reading the book and working through what it says to do in order to make changes that get noticed. I really don't care how hard it is, because it can NOT be harder than this is right now for me, trying to hold things together while being a straight up pussified YES man. I am going to ignore that she SAYS she is leaving, like you said.

I believe she is leaving this weekend to go see her parents, 10 hours away in Wisconsin (I am in Nebraska), for two weeks, a planned vacation she wanted, and this afternoon I'm going to have that exact talk that you showed up above, the "Husband/man" talk. I am not going to focus on all of these idiotic "emotions" but I'm going to work on facts, and the fact is, I've been a complete pansy, and that is going to end today. More than ever I am realizing a woman wants a leader, a strong supportive person who can carry them through, not someone constantly down on himself simply because of the past. 

Now I have to continually tell myself this and hold myself to it.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Okay. So she hasn't left yet, if you want her to not go you can tell her that you don't like that she's going to be away and you would rather she stay. But either way, you've realized you need to make some changes and those changes will be made either way.

I know that for me, it was easier to make those changes because my wife chose to stay and therefore I was able to make those changes and see the results without having to wait and wonder. Still, as I've said when I wrote at the time, after I started reading I felt very secure about the changes I needed to make and I slept real good that night.

So assuming she still goes, the fact that you're asserting your desire for her to stay is your first action - but remember that is something she might not do, and therefore the objective is not that you are saying she must stay, it's just because you're going to start being a better person and you're inviting her to enjoy it.

As I was saying, assuming she still goes, your first act of taking charge will be that you want to set up a time when the two of you will talk. I'd tell her that you want to hear from her when she gets there and anywhere (gas or meals) that she stops along the way. You care about her and want to ensure her safety. She can just text you if you think that'd be better, texting is a more comfortable thing. You use your judgement about what's most comfortable for her, if you think the call would be okay that might be better... But when you communicate this plan to her, make the choice your own - tell her what you want her to do because it's part of your plan to provide for her safety.

As far as her calling, you set up a time for the two of you to talk. Use your judgement as far as what you think she'd be comfortable with, but you tell her "This is when I plan that we will talk" and make the plan your own... You can give her an out, and if she takes the out then that will be time you spend on self-improvement.

It sounds good, she's given you the hint that you're on the right track. She's skeptical because of your past performance. She's looking for comfort. She would be comforted by a response along this lineL: "Baby, I know I've been a wussy guy in the past and that's why you're skeptical. That was the old me. The new me is here to stay, and you will see that the new me is the man you deserve."

The journal. Look, that's nonsense that anyone should give you a hard time. You can admit that the old you was a wuss that didn't attract your wife enough to keep her attention on you, that's okay because old you is a different guy from new you. But marriage is supposed to make you one person. Trust but verify is entirely appropriate. Her having secrets isn't cool. You were in the right for finding out what was going out, and as head of the family you're still right to do it again whenever you feel it's necessary.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

I was just reading through this thread and saw you were advised to read the MMSP book. Wrong time for that one. I was advised that too at the wrong time. There is a time and place for that, but not in your current situation.

The book that helped me a whole lot when mine walked away and divorce was looking likely, was Divorce Busting.

She has been home since March and I credit the book "Divorce Busting" and this website for helping me navigate the storm. Advice from this site needs to be taken with a grain of salt and smarts.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Wow there is alot going on here and my gut feeling is to back off.

Trying to fix things can sometime and in my experience create more problems than it can fix. 

Regarding Counseling. There are good an bad ones out there. Keep looking till you find one that is good and does not make you feel good, that is a mistake. If they are just making you feel good and not challenge you, they may not be good for you in the end.

Can you do MC? If so look till you both agree on the right one.

I also saw you have other family members involved. In my book this is a mistake. One for support who will keep it quiet is the best case, if you involve more you will have more cleaning up to do and more opinions to mess it up.

My humble thoughts.


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

Just so you know. Last year my Wife said she was done, wanted divorce, seperated for 4 months. It was hell. I lost weight, depressed, etc

She is home now, in love and things are really looking up.

It took patience! 180, read and leave the door open to work on it.

I wish you well!


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, from what I'm reading in that book it really stacks up well in my situation. I made a change that I thought would be for the better a year ago and it has not turned out like I thought it would, therefore I need to swing the pendulum back the other direction and get myself more centered between the strong alpha male and the settled caring beta male. 

One of my biggest issues is not stepping back and allowing time to take its course, instead I get caught up on issues that I think should be solved INSTANTLY, and if I can't solve them, or they are somehow out of my control, I nearly feel like I'm losing my mind, the anxiety spikes, and I can't focus on any of the issues that I actually CAN repair. 

I've never dealt with anxiety/depression long term before so it is very hard on me. My wife has had years of dealing with it so she has the experience to get through it, but unfortunately, even though I was able to handle her when she had it (I didn't help as much as I should have though), she is completely unequipped to deal with me, as she puts it, she "..is not that strong". Therefore I have got to find a better counselor to help me get out of this funk and move beyond where I am at right now.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Getting ready to talk to her, here goes


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Sorry I didn't get back for a couple hours...

I started out asking her in what way we could have done a better job talking about the issue we had on Saturday (an argument that turned into "I'M DONE, I CAN'T DO IT ANYMORE!"), she said she's just tired of it always getting to that point, she calls it "circular arguments", I said that in any relationship, parents/kids, spouses, etc, there are going to be disagreements, and that we have to find a better way to resolve them, then letting them get to the point of no return.

I then asked why it is that she feels she is unhappy all the time, and she said that a huge part of it is how down I am all the time (I knew this had to be a part of it) but also that, as we progressed through the early portion of our marriage, we had dreams: We would have a child, we would buy a house, to make room for another child, that she would stay at home and raise them... but she never really thought of anything beyond that, so as she was a "stay at home mom", she ended up being extremely depressed. Then I would come home and have issues over stupid stuff, and it caused her to be even more distraught and uncertain about things. After awhile she just fell into a state of not caring about me, and she says that she is still in that same state of mind today, that she hasn't found a way to come back into the fold and love me again.

She hasn't desired sex in more than a year, says that she does once a month when she has that moment of passion while ovulating, and she'll "put up" with having sex with me, but that she doesn't desire it, doesn't have fantasies anymore, doesn't feel a need for it. She also stated that my "grabbing a boob" or "reaching in my pants" is not a good way to initiate sex (yah, I stupidly did that from time to time heh) and we joked about that a bit. 

We also agreed that the counselor we had was a nice guy, and did make us feel better, but likely didn't force the issues as much as he should have, to help us actually get to the root of our problems. She agrees that we should see someone else (THANK GOD, I was hoping she would  that made me feel better).

She wants to do what is right, but she isn't sure what that is. She says she knows that staying together is right by the kids, but she's not sure if that is good for either of us. I stated that I married her, I am her husband, but I have never been the man I need to be in this relationship, which changes today. 

What it all came down to, from my view, is that she doesn't know what she wants, she is very confused right now and we clearly have a lack of distinct goals in our relationship, which is something we need to work on. We also need to work more to get out of the house, with or without the kids, together and apart, and spend more time with friends. We rely too much on one another for our own happiness, which isn't a bad thing, IF the relationship itself was in better shape, however we are a work in process, therefore it is imperative that we get out of ourselves and out with others.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I know I'm pounding my own thread heavily today, but a lot is going on. 

With respect to the argument that my wife and I had on Saturday, how exactly do I keep her from popping the "I AM DONE" card when I have a disagreement with her, especially in situations where she has really hurt my feelings?


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

It all makes sense. Remember, this stuff you're learning about in MMSL is biological. It works in a manner usually that women aren't consciously aware. I think it's probably that if you ask the woman what she wants, she says she doesn't know... It may be the truth, or it may be that she knows but what she wants is for you to do it yourself because you're the man. If you have to be told to me the man, you aren't the man.

It's on you man, if you ask me the signals are that she's received your message and now she's waiting to see if you are the real deal.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> I know I'm pounding my own thread heavily today, but a lot is going on.
> 
> With respect to the argument that my wife and I had on Saturday, how exactly do I keep her from popping the "I AM DONE" card when I have a disagreement with her, especially in situations where she has really hurt my feelings?



Don't take it literally. She's expressing a frustration, but if you respond to the words she is using then you're responding to something other than the real frustration. 

My wife is doing that to me these days, she's really laying it on heavy with the tests that are a result of her being frustrated that I'm out of work, but she's challenging my authority on everything else. 

For me, as an example, I go through my morning routine of letting out the dog, feeding the cat, starting coffee, fixing my breakfast and sitting down to eat it and read internet news. This morning she decided that my sitting there reading news on the internet meant she had to start telling me to do things. It picked up again at the end of the day. I had to stand my ground and call her out for being ridiculous, and it inflames her a little, but I recognize that she's challenging her authority and the real issue is something she's not saying, and after she sees what she's doing from me having pointed it out instead of taking the bait, we talk about her being upset about my being out of work.

If she pulls that card, don't react. She's pushing your buttons. Stay calm above all else. Tell her that you realize that she wants to leave based on her feelings about the old you, and remind her that the old you would react to the card angrily but the new you is in charge and wants to make things right, so you're giving her a chance to tell you what's really on her mind.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I really believe I can do this, the only real fear I have is the anxiety that creates panicky feelings in me, I have to find some other outlet for this than relying on her to support me when it gets really bad.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

That I can't really help with... Our psychiatrist that's our MC makes a case that depression meds are overprescribed, and feels alot of medicating could be treated with counseling. Would it help any to suggest that you try being direct, and when you start getting anxiety to just say "I'm getting anxious, so bear with me."


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Po12345 said:


> Cliff notes: Wife wasn't happy in marriage, never told me, went to see an ex, didn't sleep with him, but I found out and then found out about a lot of other dishonest stuff. My own behavior (immature anger issues) had stifled our communication. We were both to blame for a lot.
> 
> So now, trying to fix things, my wife isn't sure she is IN love with me but that she does love me. I believe we can save this relationship...
> 
> ...


The answer to that question is not pleasant. Be a man about it. I have a friend going through the same exact thing. He seems more like a child about stuff, and it eventually did his marriage in. Like, your job for instance. A woman wants to hear, "I might lose my job but don't worry, we'll make it work somehow. We'll be okay." I mean...anybody would want their partner to be reassuring and confident instead of, "I don't know what to do, I'm so scared! What do I do What do I do?" 

I can't say it nicely...it's just not attractive for a man to wimp out with everything. Even if you aren't sure, even if you are scared, even if you are depressed...put on a brave face man and don't whine about it all the time. Man up and handle it mostly on your own. Don't make your partner feel like at any moment, at the drop of a hat or the slightest upheaval, you will totally fall apart and leave it totally up to them to stop the train from crashing. I mean, don't lie about everything, but when she asks how your counciling is going, just give her the basics. "Not the best, but I'm working on it." or, "Good. Making progress bit by bit." Maybe she doesn't want a total rehash of all the sordid details. It'll just make your partner feel insecure about the relationship and, frankly, your whole situation. 

You're wearing her out with your clingyness and it is doing the opposite of bringing you closer. I say this as a person who is also working on not being as clingy and needy. It makes our partners wary around us and tense and uncomfortable and, once again, it is very unattractive. People are put off by it.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I completely understand, DayDream. Today was a particularily bad day for me in terms of the stress. The anxiety was eating me alive most of the day at work, even after I found out I have a job interview on Thursday for a recruiting position that would get my foot in the door as a permanent position for the next 15 years. 

BUT, even as it washed over me over and over today I fought it, and I did not allow myself to whine or cry to my wife at all, I didn't call her about it, Facebook message her, or text her with any of that needy nonsense. Instead I called several different marriage counselors, and found one that I thought might be good, offered my wife several numbers, but told her the one I liked, hoping we might both agree on the same one. 

She leaves on Saturday for two weeks to Wisconsin, and it is likely going to be a hard time for me, but it will also be a good time for me (and her for that matter) to reflect and get back to ourselves. 

I would like to clarify something about myself, I had a good Alpha male/Beta male thing going before my marriage cracked, which swung the pendalum way over to the beta side. I was probably a little too Alpha before even. It was the first counselor we went to that really destroyed me, by attacking me and breaking me down, I think she was trying to empower my wife but in doing so she ruined what was at least a decent balance we had between one another that actually made the relationship work. So instead of my being the strong one and my wife being the borderline agoraphobic one with the anxiety problems, now we both have to deal with anxiety and depression and now she has no one to lean on. I won't 100% blame that counselor, because I'm sure I haven't done enough to try and get out of this funk, but every other counselor we have talked to has been utterly shocked at what the first one we went to did, both our marriage counselor and all the personal ones I have tried since (still haven't found a good personal counselor that works).


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Hey... dunno how good you are with texting, but here's a suggestion FWIW. 

I'm 40 and we've been married 10 years, so texting and Facebook evolved after we were done with the dating scene. So one of the things my wife had done was get unlimitted texting on her phone since she texts her sisters, and I got it for my phone too more recently. Athol mentions texting, so I decided I wanted to learn more after I was done with MMSL.

The next kindle book I got was "TextAppeal - For Guys! The Ultimate Guide to Texting" and I've been using it on my wife. It's written for guys on the dating scene, maybe even geared towards pickup artists or those who wish to become, but I found it can be applied to creating attraction in a marriage just as well.

As it turns out, the stuff I learned from that.. Well, I'm not a people person - I'm an engineer - this stuff could be applied in a way in my professional career life too.

It's late, gonna have to leave it at that. I was going to suggest that so you could build attraction with your wife by appropriate texting to her.. A big point, it sounds like, would be send a text and don't send another until she responds. It's probably not hard to figure that one out since you know not to be needy, but there's a lot more fun than that which I'm having these days.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Over the last several years her texting and emails sort of dried up, in terms of anything intimate or loving. I don't even get the occasional "hey what's up, just thinking about you" anymore. That is hard but I'm learning to deal with it, and also realize there are things I can do to "up" my appeal so she will feel more desire to actually send those text messages, but through reading in this website is that one thing that does NOT work is bombarding her with my feelings electronically when she isn't sure how she feels, that makes things far worse.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

... And that would be something that you'd get out of the e-book I recommended as well. That would be filed under texting no-no's.

Okay. I was going to give you an example, but I think it might be better posted in the Sex in Marriage forum so I have posted my example in this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/49187-recent-example-how-i-text-my-wife.html#post839863

Some of the key elements of texting properly are avoiding the appearance of being needy by sending a text and no more until after the other person responds... And have fun, particularly if you can work in something you want in a way as if it was the other person's idea.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Most of today at work I've been studying up for a job interview I have tomorrow, but I tried to get out of work a little early to give my wife a break. She texted me at 1:30 hoping I'd be coming home around 2'ish so she could go get some medicine for a migraine she has coming on. 

On the way home I stopped and got her a slushie type drink. She liked that. She was just in her shirt, said she was waxing this morning. I said that was sexy, and probably shouldn't have, her response: "well, I do it because it just feels better and is cleaner during that time of the month, not for you"  little verbal slap

BUT, that is fine, I just chuckled and left the room. I kept a smile on my face and played with the kids for awhile. This is really hard right now, because she looks very very unhappy, and I want so bad to fix this but I know my 'tried and true' methods are pure shxx and not helping. Good news is that we have a marriage counselor meeting set up for tomorrow afternoon at 4 p.m. I pray that it is someone we can both relate to.

She leaves this weekend for two weeks at her parents. I just have to maintain and keep working on myself, and become a better person through all of this, regardless of how this turns out. My biggest fears right now are for my 4 and 2 year old.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I'm going to download and read No More Mr Nice Guy next.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> her response: "well, I do it because it just feels better and is cleaner during that time of the month, not for you"


:slap: Time to do the 180 and move on my friend.


Is the ex near her parents?


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Yeah... her retort was uncalled for, but it was probably meant to test whether you'd give her the power to hurt you and it was probably an appropriate response for you to not take the bait. 

A little bit stronger response might have been for you to maintain your position that it's sexy and you like it, and that has nothing to do with motives.

I'd refrain from acknowledging the snark. There's nothing to be gained, in my opinion... If she kept baiting you, then it might be necessary to respond - I'd have a tough time with that. Athol would probably tell you to call it like it is, that she's being *****y.. I'd have a hard time being comfortable making that move.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I have a 4 and a 2 year old with her, I will fight this to the bitter end, I will not have my children in a broken home unless it is the absolute last possible outcome. That is my first and foremost priority.

This may seem odd to some people, but I married her, my vows are sacred to me, and I will follow through with them. My wife has some major issues, yes, and no, I can't fix them, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give her a chance to get better.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Po12345 said:


> I completely understand, DayDream. Today was a particularily bad day for me in terms of the stress. The anxiety was eating me alive most of the day at work, even after I found out I have a job interview on Thursday for a recruiting position that would get my foot in the door as a permanent position for the next 15 years.
> 
> BUT, even as it washed over me over and over today I fought it, and I did not allow myself to whine or cry to my wife at all, I didn't call her about it, Facebook message her, or text her with any of that needy nonsense. Instead I called several different marriage counselors, and found one that I thought might be good, offered my wife several numbers, but told her the one I liked, hoping we might both agree on the same one.
> 
> ...


Sorry! I really should have read this whole thread before answering your first post. It may have cleared some stuff up for me. 

About the alpha thing...I still agree that that is important. It's hard to find the right balance though in marriage for some people. Your situation does sound much different from my friend's situation, the difference being that his wife always called all the shots, always got her way with everything, they always did what she wanted to do, and eventually she cut the puppet strings and now he's floundering.

I must admit...though my husband and I can argue ourselves crazy at times, he knows how to stand his ground and not back down just because I want him to...and be it sick or normal, that's a turn on for me. In the end, I'm glad he's that way.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

keko said:


> :slap: Time to do the 180 and move on my friend.
> 
> 
> Is the ex near her parents?


I also was struck by this. Such a nasty thing to say to someone who loves her so much! I can't imagine saying that to my husband (well...really he would not have it. If I said something like that I would hear about how nasty and hateful and uncalled-for that statement was).


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Po12345 said:


> I have a 4 and a 2 year old with her, I will fight this to the bitter end, I will not have my children in a broken home unless it is the absolute last possible outcome. That is my first and foremost priority.
> 
> This may seem odd to some people, but I married her, my vows are sacred to me, and I will follow through with them. My wife has some major issues, yes, and no, I can't fix them, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give her a chance to get better.


Absolutely! Vows are meant to be sacred. You try and try and try until all avenues are explored and you cannot possibly do another thing to save it.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Plus I love her. I really do love her, through everything I love holding her in my arms, I love spending time with her, she is still everything I wanted when we married 7 years ago come July 2nd.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

DayDream said:


> I also was struck by this. Such a nasty thing to say to someone who loves her so much! I can't imagine saying that to my husband (well...really he would not have it. If I said something like that I would hear about how nasty and hateful and uncalled-for that statement was).


Po and I are probably alike, and for me I was able to turn around my marital problems with MMSL without any need for threats. I did not want to go there.

The fact is that if a wife is falling out of love and the husband is not going to abandon the marriage, it puts that husband in a weak position when it comes down to it. It disempowers him.

The way I view it, the reality is that marital vows have no legal force. The only power behind our marital vows are those powers vested by us as a result of our personal values.

So, people such as myself in a position of our wives falling out of love with us... The way we have to view it is that we have very great personal value on the vows we made at our marriage, but those are vows that were made by the husband and the wife together. We owe it to that value to leave the marriage only as a last resort, but the fact is that if it comes to that last resort, it's because the vows were already broken by a wife and a marriage is between man and wife, not man and vows.


I feel as though I could go in circles. I'm just glad for my part that it never came to that.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Plus I love her. I really do love her, through everything I love holding her in my arms, I love spending time with her, she is still everything I wanted when we married 7 years ago come July 2nd.


But she has the opposite of your feelings, she mentioned she loved you but wasn't in love with you. Classic cheater script.

I'm not trying to hurt you but you have to look at it realistically. How are you planning on making someone do something they don't want to?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> Well, she wants a divorce.
> 
> She came out today and stated that she has been unhappy this entire last year, for different reasons. She says she has "tried to make this work" but that now she is "unhappy and sad and only feels comfortable when it is just her and the kids", which I don't understand, I've been more supportive, doing dishes more, more meals, etc.
> 
> ...


This is tough but it will get better. I've been there. You have to do the 180. You have to reject her and move on. Be strong. Do not take any sh*t from her but do not overreact either. Often the best response is no response. The key is strength and maturity. That will not only help you regain a sense of control it is the most likely approach to give YOU the choice of whether you want to take her back.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

WillK said:


> Po and I are probably alike, and for me I was able to turn around my marital problems with MMSL without any need for threats. I did not want to go there.
> 
> The fact is that if a wife is falling out of love and the husband is not going to abandon the marriage, it puts that husband in a weak position when it comes down to it. It disempowers him.
> 
> ...


What struck me about this response is you mentioned the word "threat". What I said wasn't a threat...it was pointing out a nasty remark and that it was uncalled for. Even if the marriage is in jeopardy I still don't see the benefit of pretending a person isn't being nasty toward you. I guess I just don't get it.


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## hldnhope (Apr 10, 2012)

STOP IT PO!!!!

You are blaming yourself, and you are NOT the whole problem. Both you AND your wife have contributed to this, and it will take BOTH of you to work on it to fix it. Believe me, I jsut started this same process in February. MLC/ and ILYBNILWY talk...

What you are going through right not is the sense of loss...a similar feeling to: if your wife left on day for the store and a police officer showed up at your door and told you she had been in a bad accident and died...ONLY worse: she is still there with you. You WILL go through all the feelings and emotions people go through in a loss: blame/depression/anger/resentment/denial....and it is understanable.

TAM will help with this...heed the advise you get carefully though because you will get a lot of personal stories and need to take from them what applies to you. You WILL get people that have been hurt by infidelity insisting that she is cheating, which may not be true, but they can be convincing....


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

keko said:


> :slap: Time to do the 180 and move on my friend.
> 
> 
> Is the ex near her parents?


Po, nothing you've done so far is working, in your own life or your marriage.
Time for the 180, if only to get some self control & emotional well being. 
Do the 180!!!


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

And about the boob and a-- grabbing...I thought that was normal? I love when my husband takes the time and notice to enjoy what I have to offer. And I do it too. Maybe it just depends on the person, but personally I find great pleasure in grabbing my husband's butt or sticking my hand down his pants when I can find a little private moment. So don't beat yourself up over that either.

I used to ask myself this...do you ever feel like a square peg trying to fit itself into a round hole?


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

DayDream said:


> What struck me about this response is you mentioned the word "threat". What I said wasn't a threat...it was pointing out a nasty remark and that it was uncalled for. Even if the marriage is in jeopardy I still don't see the benefit of pretending a person isn't being nasty toward you. I guess I just don't get it.


It was more directed at the 180 comment from Keko than you. I think I'm in agreement, but how he responds is key. An arguement, even a sound rational arguement, is a losing response. The nastinessis obvious, and by responding to it she gets to make the response the focus of the moment and she doesn't get the chance for the self reflection that might otherwise lead her to think to herself "That was really a stupid thing to say."

I have gotten more apologies from my wife for the times she says something out of anger when I've refused to respond than I've ever gotten by saying anything. Sometimes she'll apologize much later if I just respond by saying that she said something mean... But it takes that time for her to process and realize on her own that she said something stupid.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

DayDream said:


> And about the boob and a-- grabbing...I thought that was normal? I love when my husband takes the time and notice to enjoy what I have to offer. And I do it too. Maybe it just depends on the person, but personally I find great pleasure in grabbing my husband's butt or sticking my hand down his pants when I can find a little private moment. So don't beat yourself up over that either.
> 
> I used to ask myself this...do you ever feel like a square peg trying to fit itself into a round hole?


It wouldn't be normal if someone who you weren't comfortable with and/or did not have respect for came up to you and grabbed your boobs or ass. It's not about the action, it's about the state of the relationship.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

WillK said:


> It wouldn't be normal if someone who you weren't comfortable with and/or did not have respect for came up to you and grabbed your boobs or ass. It's not about the action, it's about the state of the relationship.


Which, really, is what I was getting at. Like you said...if the relationship wasn't in jeopardy it would be. But I was afraid he was talking like he wasn't normal or something was wrong with those actions period.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I do feel abnormal even touching her anywhere that could be considered an erotic zone. Like I said, she hasn't felt 'sexual' at all in the last year, went so far as to say she hasn't even taken care of herself. 

Our appointment yesterday with a new marriage counselor was okay I guess, not really what I expected. I'm realizing more and more that I truly am The Nice Guy by very definition. The MC listened to us, asked questions, and gave his input. Basically he stated that I need to just let her go, if she decides she wants to leave I can't do anything about that, begging for her to stay only makes it worse because it makes her stay for the wrong reason, to keep me from hurting. For her, he wants her to communicate better and be more open with me. Basically he states (correctly I must admit) that I have allowed my own personal well being to be far more tied up in her emotional well being, and when she is upset I blame myself, instead of letting her work it out herself. It is okay for me to support her but not to blame myself or think I can fix her.

I downloaded No More Mr Nice Guy last night and holy crap, even more of a wake up for me. I have always believed in being the nice guy, in giving up whatever I needed to, sacrificing, to maintain a happy family, without realizing that giving up that much of myself makes me something I'm not. Instead I end up bitter, angry, and a host of other 'victim' mentalities. 

I don't know if the 180 is needed quite yet, I'm going to work within the realm of the NMMNG book, and also work on my own health and well being. I've spent a year trying to do this my own way with crappy counseling and medication, and while the medication has helped, the counseling has been substandard, obviously. I would think any counselor worth his weight could have determined the Nicy Guy syndrome and confronted me on it.

Now for at least a little good news. While she is leaving tomorrow with the kids for two weeks, that will still give me some time to get my life a little more in order, start finding my way back to things I enjoy, get back to working out, and focus on my job. Even better news, she is talking all about this coming school year and what she wants to do, and it involves being here. 

The really crappy part I am realizing, is that the only way for me to break this cycle is to, for lack of a better term, "fall out of love" somewhat, so she can come back into the fold and feel comfortable. Just seems like such a crazy course of action, love her less to fix the problems... but both the counselor and this book seem to say the same thing, and crazy enough it makes sense.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> The really crappy part I am realizing, is that the only way for me to break this cycle is to, for lack of a better term, "fall out of love" somewhat, so she can come back into the fold and feel comfortable. Just seems like such a crazy course of action, love her less to fix the problems... but both the counselor and this book seem to say the same thing, and crazy enough it makes sense.


I think this requires reformulation of what you think love is. Love is wanting the best for someone else. There is an essay on here, Let Them Go, and that is its essence. Love that involves forcing someone to do what they don't want to do is too selfish to be a pure love. Of course no one is entirely capable of this, it is a superhuman quality to love this way, but that should be our goal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

That's what I ended up doing with my husband this year. I sucked up my despair as well as I could and calmly told him that if I was really holding him back and keeping him from fulfilling his dreams, then maybe we just aren't meant to be together anymore and it was time to let the marriage go. He asked if that was what I wanted, and I said "no, but if that's what you want I will let you go. I'll do it for you."


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> I don't know if the 180 is needed quite yet, I'm going to work within the realm of the NMMNG book, and also work on my own health and well being. I've spent a year trying to do this my own way with crappy counseling and medication, and while the medication has helped, the counseling has been substandard, obviously. I would think any counselor worth his weight could have determined the Nicy Guy syndrome and confronted me on it.


Good for you Po, you're making progress, that should give you a lot of encouragement. 
The men on here can correct me if I'm wrong, the NMMNG IS essentially doing a 180, so you're already in the process.
You're a Nice Guy & now you want to shed that identity, hence a 180 with NMMNG. 
Men of TAM, do I have that right?


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Phenix70 said:


> Good for you Po, you're making progress, that should give you a lot of encouragement.
> The men on here can correct me if I'm wrong, the NMMNG IS essentially doing a 180, so you're already in the process.
> You're a Nice Guy & now you want to shed that identity, hence a 180 with NMMNG.
> Men of TAM, do I have that right?


Being a "nice guy" in any sense of trying to buy a relationship (supplicate e.g. with gifts/actions/promises/bargaining etc. when it's to get the relationship) at ANY stage is instinctively and deeply unattractive to women. Women are hard-wired to feel, "BLEH", or at best ambivalent about any guy that does this, even if they like the attention/ego boost. Non-neediness, strength, confidence and pro-social maturity are key. These qualities are attractive to both sexes.

Doing the 180 is more than simply not being supplicating, although that's a significant reason why it is helpful, particularly for men. The 180 is a break-up-handling strategy mainly encapsulating this principle but not being a "Nice Guy" in the sense above is also about improving a man's inner game, confidence with life in general and helping him across the board in all relationships. For example - you don't have to be the classic "bad boy" to not allow people to treat you like a doormat.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Okay, thanks guys, I appreciate it. I am going to make these changes, for myself, because if I don't I am not going to make it... I have given so much of myself away at this point that if she were to decide to walk out that door, in my current mental state, I'd likely lose whatever sanity I have left and I don't know what I would do to myself. 

Today she left for her mom's in Wisconsin, and I hope you don't bash on me too much in here but I got the truck all ready yesterday and today so she could go. Changed the oil, made sure the tires were all good as far as pressure, topped off the antifreeze, changed out the throttle positioning sensor, etc. I didn't do it expecting anything from her, I just want to make sure they have a safe trip, it is 10 hours, and our quad cab Ram has 121,000 miles on it. Her, a 4 year old and a 2 year old, I will still worry a bit, I am just not going to fixate on it.

So, for the next two weeks, till Friday the 6th of July, I am here by myself. I will still be working but I am going to be trying to fill my evenings up with better things. I have realized from the Nice Guy book that I let myself be too much of a pushover in a lot of areas in my life and that just needs to stop. I am going to try and find some better friends, people who are well to do and enjoy the same things I do, and try as hard as I can to avoid the "woe is me I am such a victim" mentality. As of now my wife is already talking about this fall, and going back to school, so I think we are okay from that standpoint. I think I'll leave the forum floor to you all for a bit, there is more to say here but I want to spend some time doing a few things around the house, and you know what else? Going to play some Warcraft since I have the place to myself too haha.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

One question I do have, have any of you succeeded in turning from "NICE GUY" to a more productive, balanced man, and if so, how did you do it?


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> One question I do have, have any of you succeeded in turning from "NICE GUY" to a more productive, balanced man, and if so, how did you do it?


How about making a thread in the Men's Clubhouse, with a link back to this thread, you would probably get more responses that way.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> One question I do have, have any of you succeeded in turning from "NICE GUY" to a more productive, balanced man, and if so, how did you do it?


I strongly suggest you subscribe to David DeAngelo's email updates and also read Chase Amantes website. Then practice, practice, practice.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> One question I do have, have any of you succeeded in turning from "NICE GUY" to a more productive, balanced man, and if so, how did you do it?



I think I have, still early to judge success and still I'd say a work in progress, but I think there's a lot of experimentation and I depend a lot on seeing the results of what I try to do. 

Here's what I think is how I did it. I only read MMSL. Ultimately what I think is that it told me things I've heard before, but in a way that sank in. For me I think it was important to understand the how's and why's of how it works. Knowing that, I can catch myself being nicie guy when I can see it not working and change my reaction - if nothing else then just stop reacting.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Well, update, but not the best update. 

We have been seeing a new counselor, but he's apparently more into 'you each should build yourselves up and make this work" and "you are both good people blah blah blah and good people can work together", which is fine, I guess, but it i sn't working all that well. 

My wife has systematically been slowly pushing away. In the meantime, I didn't realize, she's been increasing internet contact with that guy she went to see in Arizona, through Facebook, not sure about other means, and now she's working on paintings for his business. I tried bringing this stuff up with the counselor and he's like "Oh now, this online stuff, how important is it really? Let's worry about ourselves here and get things better between the two of you!" 

Certainly my wife is happy with this, because it doesn't make her face any of her issues. So in turn I continue to snoop because she doesn't talk to me, and there are days where she has 40 messages back and forth between this other man, days where she writes posts that only she can see, talking about how much she loves HIM, then a few days later how much she hates HIM and "why does he keep me on a string like this???". 

Then I noticed she essentially blocked my posts from appearing on her Facebook feeds, then also that she was blocking me from seeing a lot of her posts. It is interesting because I never even CARED about Facebook or what she did before, until she went to Arizona to meet up with HIM. 

So I confronted her about blocking me and we got into a huge argument, and finally I said "Why are you even here? If you don't want to be here, just go then!" and she packed up her bags and has now been working to find an apartment, but she's staying in the guest bedroom. She's talking about a legal separation, I don't really want that but if that's going to happen then so be it. She can't seem to stop talking to that other guy (A guy she can't have by the way, a guy who fxxxed her over 12 years ago and disappeared on her).

Today I have to meet with the chaplain then the judge advocate general to discuss my legal rights in all of this. I don't want a legal separation but I can't stop her from doing what she's going to do. If this does happen she certainly is NOT going to stay in my house and I am NOT going to help her with her expenses, and I will fight to keep custody of the children. 

In a nutshell, I've spent a year trying to change myself for nothing... "Be a nicer guy, show her more respect, be in tune to her needs" when she was giving all of her emotional energy to another man. 

To say I'm frustrated is an understatement. If I even bring anything up to my wife now she just locks herself into the guest room. I think I waited too long.


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## Phenix70 (May 6, 2012)

I'm fairly certain you're frustrated because you haven't been following the advice of the books or TAM, because if you had, I doubt you would be in the mental place you are right now.
That is NOT a dig at you, I'm simply making an observation based upon many men who found themselves in similar circustances, didn't listen to the advice given to them, only to come back later & ask what they needed to do.
Take to heart what others have shared with you, they have been where you are now & go fire that clueless counselor. 

Regarding the separation, JAG is more than likely going to tell you that you have to give her part of your BAH until a court order is granted to show otherwise & the military doesn't recognize legal separation, either you're married or you're not.
I would go retain a civilian atty as well, as JAG can't represent you.


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## DayDream (May 25, 2011)

Po12345 said:


> Well, update, but not the best update.
> 
> We have been seeing a new counselor, but he's apparently more into 'you each should build yourselves up and make this work" and "you are both good people blah blah blah and good people can work together", which is fine, I guess, but it i sn't working all that well.
> 
> ...


I'm curious...how did you find out she was blocking your posts and posts from you on Facebook?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> I tried bringing this stuff up with the counselor and he's like "Oh now, this online stuff, how important is it really? Let's worry about ourselves here and get things better between the two of you!"


:facepalm:

If for whatever reason you need IC/MC in the future, make sure to avoid this one.



As for your wife, its clear no matter what you do you'll never be enough for her. From now on do everything for YOURSELF. She needs to hit rock bottom to realize her mistake but I'm afraid by then she'll be used and abused.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

Writing's on the wall. Read it, memorize it, copy it down and then burn it and move on.

At this point, just let go. Tell her you love her but it's time to move on with your life also. It's gonna hurt but trust me, that pain is nothing compared to what you're setting yourself up for.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Work on yourself for you. Be very cautious about doing anything for her. Anything you do for her, will make her believe she has to reject you progressively harder. The only chance you have of getting her to change her mind is moving on, forgetting her and building a great new life without her.


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## CanUpside (Aug 1, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Oh, Pol. You'll get lots of advice about what to do, but until that kicks in, I'm just sending you a big hug. It's a hard, hard thing to hear. My thoughts will be with you tonight.


Your in my prayers. I am actually in the exact same place as you are. You are in my prayers.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Hope you're going to hang around and talk here some more dude. 

Please provide the words you used to inform her that she must cut off all contact with OM.

Next MC, ask the counselor how many times its okay for your wife to **** another man, how many times you should shrug off for her to say that she loves another man.

Maybe that's rhetorical.


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## kindi (Apr 28, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Cliff notes: Wife wasn't happy in marriage, never told me, went to see an ex, didn't sleep with him, but I found out and then found out about a lot of other dishonest stuff.


I only caught this thread because it was bumped by a new post. I skipped most of the stuff in the middle but this one comment in your first post caught my eye.

Your wife was dishonest with you about a lot of stuff. She went to see her ex, and from what I read she's still carrying on with him months later.

Yet you write "she didn't sleep with him".

How do you know that?

Please don't say "because she told me she didn't".

Truth is, if she went to see him, and they were physically in the same place at the same time, the odds are the did have sex. Denial may shield you from pain but it also keeps you from the truth. You need to be aware of this and act accordingly.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

kindi said:


> I only caught this thread because it was bumped by a new post. I skipped most of the stuff in the middle but this one comment in your first post caught my eye.
> 
> Your wife was dishonest with you about a lot of stuff. She went to see her ex, and from what I read she's still carrying on with him months later.
> 
> ...


I wanted to answer this before I went along with my update. 

I found a journal my wife kept online, more like an online diary, that only she ever had access to. It wasn't a community or anything like that, apparently she has it to clear her mind. She went into great detail about everything that happened on her little rendevoux with this guy, including going to his hotel room with him (something she lied to me about upon first bombshell that she had met up with him "We were in the restaurant all night") but after getting into his hotel room she went into the bathroom and started crying, asking herself what she was doing there, etc..., then apparently they talked for a little bit and she left. 

I want to be clear about something here, my feelings about all of this wouldn't likely have changed much if she had slept with him, to me it was a betrayal either way, especially because she was still in contact with him for so long, and the horrible untrue things she wrote about me in her little journal, and the fantasy crap she was writing about him. 

Honestly, I think I could deal with someone having a one night fling with someone they met in the bar and never seeing them/talking to them again more easily than dealing with a long term (YEARS) emotional affair ending up with her meeting him in a hotel room, even without the sex.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Okay, now on to the update...

About a month ago I went into the office (wife works from home in our house) and found Facebook open, and true to form, I found myself snooping yet again, and although there was only meaningless banter back and forth, there was still contact with the other guy. Then confirmed something I'd suspected for awhile, she had completely blocked me from even appearing in her newsfeed, meaning anything I posted wouldn't show up, anything I wrote to her wouldn't appear, etc. I went ballistic on her, she tried to deny it, we had a huge fight, and I told her "I don't even know why you are here, honestly, if you want to leave, pack a bag and go".

She dropped about 50 f bombs on me, along with a bunch of other stuff that can't really be shown here, and locked the bedroom door while she packed up her stuff. She screamed at me that I was kicking her out, I told her repeatedly, calmly, that I wasn't kicking her out, I merely told her if she wants to go, that she is "more than welcome to leave". That night she stayed in the guest room with every intention, she said, of contacting a lawyer in the morning for a legal seperation. 

The next day I was a wreck at work and our chaplain took me down to our headquarters where I spoke with the JAG officer, and between them hearing the story that has gone on for more than a year, they told me it was time to go for the divorce. They said the idea of a legal separation is not going to cut it, that my wife was trying to leave the door open to continue things going on the same way they currently are, but worse because I'd have to support her and get nothing from it in return. 

I was very emotional about it, it was the last thing I ever wanted to do, to end my marriage and put my kids in that position, but I finally agreed that this has gone on long enough and due to my current mental state, either I finally take control or I'm going to lose myself completely. They recommended a very specific law firm and I called and set up an appointment. 

I left for home early, my wife was downstairs sitting on the couch. She told me she had spoken with her lawyer and that she wanted to do a legal separation. I didn't show any emotion, I just told her "That is fine, I've made an appointment with (Law Firm) and tomorrow morning I'm going to file for divorce."

pin drop

I could tell from the expression on her face that my reply was not at all what she was expecting. "Why a divorce?" and I explained that I was done. I told her that a legal separation doesn't take it far enough and that I was ready to distance myself further and move on with my life without her, that I know I'd be fine and I'd meet someone new and everything would be ok. Apparently her lawyer had actually mentioned the law firm I was going to by name, saying it was the worst ones to go up against, that gave me some nice personal satisfaction...

It was interesting... later on looking back on this moment, I realized that this was the point where suddenly, she was NOT in the driver's seat and had absolutely no control over what was about to happen, and it had a profound effect, a lasting effect so far.

The next 3 hours were emotional, a long discussion about what she wanted, what I wanted, and what was best for the kids, and honestly best for us. I deleted my Facebook account, I get nothing out of it and Facebook is the farking devil as far as I'm concerned, and promised no more snooping, that I would try very hard to give her the benefit of the doubt. She was going to stay in the guest room, and get rid of the other guy. 

I think one of my biggest personal revelations was the fact that the problems over the last year had very little to actually do with anything I have done and so by me trying to change myself into someone I wasn't was doing way more harm than good. I'm perfectly willing to take responsibility for anything within the marriage that I did that caused issues, however, from the point in time when she went to see the other guy, THAT is her problem and she needs to fix that bullshXX. No amount of ANYTHING I do is going to amount to anything if she doesn't get rid of him. 

Oddly enough, that very night, she came into our room and slept, I was sleeping when she came in. I woke up to find her in our bed, I didn't say anything, I got up, got ready, and went to work. I came home, again didn't say anything, did my thing, worked with the kids, played computer games, just went about my life. She again stayed in our bed that night, I made no attempts to do anything with her physically and kept it like that for some time. 

Things rapidly started to get better. She started leaving her phone out in the open, leaving her computer up and running, I had no real need (and finally no desire) to go snooping, and it seems that's done a world of good for me. I don't discuss that with her because right now that is my business. She started talking more to me about her thoughts and feelings, even about her issues with HIM, and I continued to keep my emotions in check, and remain understanding. Our marriage counselor is working well with us, and I'm maintaining my stance personally, that if things don't work out, I'm fine, I don't have to have her in my life to succeed.

NOW, before someone says "YOU IDIOT YOU CANT JUST *NOT SNOOP* GIVEN HER TRACK RECORD!", understand this, considering where we were, both talking to lawyers, ready to end it, I have NO reservations whatsoever about going to the lawyer and ending this should something else pop up, and if she's up to no good, something WILL pop up, that's just the nature of deceitful behavior. 

Also, I found a great job, it is about an hour and a half drive to get there but I'm looking forward to ME time, going to listen to music, maybe get XM radio in the car, just take that 3 hours daily during the week to enjoy personal time. So with that great job, if she decides to be stupid, I'm even better positioned to say "TAKE A HIKE" and move on without her. 

So, anyways, that's what has been going on, sorry about the book but that's how I typically write things out. It is nuts how great things have been going the last 3 weeks, in a way my saying "FXXK IT" about my marriage led me to do the same thing about this particular job interview, and out of the blue I actually got the job. I'd say I'm happier than I've been since the Bombshell Day last year and continuing to make improvements every day. I've also seen major differences in my wife, and the way she is interacting with me. It is odd to say but my completely giving up on her seems to be what it took to get her to come back.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Glad to finally get an update.

But I have to respond to the point to which you know I'm going to respond, and I'll do it by quoting 2 sections of your post which are at odds with eachother:



> and promised no more snooping, that I would try very hard to give her the benefit of the doubt.





> I think one of my biggest personal revelations was the fact that the problems over the last year had very little to actually do with anything I have done and so by me trying to change myself into someone I wasn't was doing way more harm than good. I'm perfectly willing to take responsibility for anything within the marriage that I did that caused issues, however, from the point in time when she went to see the other guy, THAT is her problem and she needs to fix that bullshXX. No amount of ANYTHING I do is going to amount to anything if she doesn't get rid of him.


You still seem to have an attitude that you need to respect her privacy. Two problems:

1) Respect is not automatic, and it makes no sense to respect the disrespectful.
2) It is your job to care enough about your marriage that you snoop.

You're entirely right that her having an affair has to be stopped before anything you improve about yourself will matter to her.

That does not mean that your improvement of yourself is pointless. You needed to do it for yourself. 

And you have all the proof you need that the changes you made were absolutely necessary. She thought she could get a seperation where she would still get all the support from you she ever needed without having to give anything in return, and you'd be happy enough about it not to do anything - she knew in her heart that you are so honor bound to her that you couldn't do anything that would hurt her.

Finally you showed her that you'll respond APPROPRIATELY if she treats you disrespectfully.

You're a man of honor. Know this: it is inherently dishonest to respond to disrespectful treatment with anything but an appropriate expression of disapproval.

Carry on. Keep us updated.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

So she is still talking to him?


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

WillK said:


> Glad to finally get an update.
> 
> But I have to respond to the point to which you know I'm going to respond, and I'll do it by quoting 2 sections of your post which are at odds with eachother:
> 
> ...


I follow exactly what you are saying, however snooping became more of an issue of MY feeling completely out of control than of verifying whether or not she was doing anything wrong. My snooping was pushing her away further because, as she said "I feel like I can't even breathe without you looking over my shoulder to find out why". 

What I've done has very little to do with "allowing her to continue" with any sort of innapropriate behavior, it is more to show that I'm strong enough and a better man, than someone who needs to continue to clamp down on everything my wife is doing. She knows if something comes up, I'm talking to the lawyer immediately, there are no more chances here. Therefore with that in mind, it has helped me to get to a better place where I'm ready to live MY life without having to rely on whatever she may be doing. This includes two different paths for my life: If she makes the changes she needs to make to help us get to a stronger trusting marriage, and secondly, she can't let go of him, even as a friend, in which case, I am gone. 

I have approached this absolutely the WRONG way. There is nothing I can do to change myself that is going to fix my marriage, NOTHING, as long as my wife was still talking and fixated on another man. Therefore it is up to her to fix her own behavior, something I can't tell her to do, the only way I can force my hand on this is to tell her that I am DONE. That realization, that I was no longer going to try any more, seems to have been a real wake up call for her. 

It is far more refreshing to live my life this way, with these two options always at the ready, than to live in fear, begging her to do the right thing. I can't fix her, she needs to do that herself.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> So she is still talking to him?


Don't know... close to saying "don't care" but that isn't really true. She knows better, let's just leave it at that. 

My hand is on the exit doorknob, it has never been like that before, it was always me trying to hold the door closed while she leaves. The current situation takes a massive amount of stress off me. I wasn't able to function before.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> It is far more refreshing to live my life this way, with these two options always at the ready, than to live in fear, begging her to do the right thing. I can't fix her, she needs to do that herself.


The point of snooping, though, isn't that you need so become a private investigator. The point is that she doesn't have anything to hide and she doesn't try to hide it by having any zone of privacy into which you aren't allowed.

Take a look back. Ask this: Did you need to actually spend any time obsessing to know that she was distrustful? Or could you have reached that conclusion by her attitude towards you wanting to know what she was doing on Facebook or whatever?

So... Yes that's something about her that she needs to fix herself. But again, you need to change you for yourself. You need to be the leader of the marriage. Doing so will give her the motivation she needs to make the changes in herself that she needs to.

Yes she needs to change. But, if you were still the push-over you had been - would she have had any reason to change?

You're on the right track now so I am not disagreeing with what you're doing, just some clarifications or something.


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

Time heals. Things will get better with time. Hard to accept when you are suffering right now.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Just updating:

I'm at work today, it is interesting, I am 90 miles away from home so it is likely I'll spend a couple or three nights a week here, come home on Wednesday and Friday nights most likely. We are communicating a lot better this last month, like I said above, and we are talking about the dangers of being this far apart. 

This is for sure an 18 month long job, at least the first part, after that I'll have some options to move a lot closer to home. I'm still somewhat "it hasn't really hit me" about the job, after all, I spent more than a year stressing about the fact that my previous job was likely going to end October 1st, and here it was with about one month remaining and I get the job. 

My wife is being a lot more affectionate and she doesn't seem nearly so stressed out. We have a long ways to go, but things are still getting better.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Oh, and it was this that really helped me understand a LOT more about the anxiety and depression, I posted it in another thread to someone but I don't think it can be shown enough:



> *Dr. David Clark, When Your Spouse Says “I Do Love You Anymore”*
> When one spouse goes to the other and says “I don’t love you anymore”. Nearly all the time there is some serious secrecy going on by the spouse who says that, and they’ve drifted from where they should have been in the relationship. They’ve done something wrong, and rather than working on the relationship, they are done with the relationship. Anyone can learn to love again, and learn to love more than before, but if another person is in the picture, that is never going to happen.
> 
> The first thing the other spouse goes through, is confusion, and shock, but there are some very serious conversations that need to be going on behind the scenes. You need to ask “Are you willing to work on this marriage?” you need to ask “Is there someone else?”. We have had 25 years of working with people, 85% to 90% of the time, there is someone else involved when a spouse says “I don’t love you anymore”. Typically it is an affair, and if not, they have targetted someone. Facebook is not doing anyone any favors with this. “Oh I knew Timmy years ago, we should meet up!”. When this happens, their heart is turned off to their spouse. They are not kidding, they do not love their spouse any longer.
> ...


For me, in a nutshell, I sunk deeply and listened to all the BS reasons that I was given for why our marriage was at the point it was at. Then I started trying to fix a problem that wasn't even my problem to begin with, that being this other guy, and that put me into a tailspin of depression and anxiety. Now that I know that I realize that I'm just fine as a man the way that I am.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The only thing I would change is that you, occasionally, sit down beside her when she's on the computer, and ask to see her FB. No words, just 'can I see it?'

If she says no, then you know she's still lying.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

turnera said:


> The only thing I would change is that you, occasionally, sit down beside her when she's on the computer, and ask to see her FB. No words, just 'can I see it?'
> 
> If she says no, then you know she's still lying.


She stays on her Facebook if I come in the room, leaves her phone on the nightstand when she is watching TV downstairs, she's even left her Facebook up during the day while she is at school. I don't look, but then I don't feel the need to look right now either. Honestly, I don't want the ball in my court, she knows if he's not out of the picture then I AM out of the picture, therefore that part she controls. Me trying to control that aspect, well, that is what got me completely out of control in the first place. 

I know exactly what you are saying, but I'm taking care of myself right now. She needs to take care of herself, if she can't, she's gone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I do get that but, if she can't 'take care of herself,' how would you know?


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Po12345 said:


> She stays on her Facebook if I come in the room, leaves her phone on the nightstand when she is watching TV downstairs, she's even left her Facebook up during the day while she is at school. I don't look, but then I don't feel the need to look right now either. Honestly, I don't want the ball in my court, she knows if he's not out of the picture then I AM out of the picture, therefore that part she controls. Me trying to control that aspect, well, that is what got me completely out of control in the first place.
> 
> I know exactly what you are saying, but I'm taking care of myself right now. She needs to take care of herself, if she can't, she's gone.


A lot of people disagree with us, but I would probably do it your way too. It's impossible to know everything about another person. All their thoughts. They can cheat in their mind. Cheating is more about intention than actions anyway. It's impossible to stop them cheating and hiding it if they wanted to. Better to embrace the uncertainty and enjoy life, I think. You'll know if she loves being with you or not.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Po12345 said:


> So, it's basically over.
> 
> My wife wanted to go onto a trip to Asia, to see Vietnam and Bali. With her being in school and my working 90 miles from home, money is extremely tight so we weren't going to be able to afford it but she flat out insisted she was going no matter what.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then surprise her with a divorce petition.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

The worst part? She still defiantly believes she did nothing wrong in visiting him. Nevermind that:
A) He's a guy that fxxxed her on a one night stand 15 years ago and disappeared.
B) She lied about the previous visit to go see him and it utterly devastated me for most of the last two years, till recently when I thought things were better.
C) She's been in contact with him on Facebook continually for the last two years, despite my insistance that it stop so we can fix things...
D) Now she lied about the layover and went to see him once again, knowing full and well how it devastated us 2 years ago and started this entire horrible mess. 

So, we are done, not sure when the divorce will happen. I absolutely believed in her, that things were getting better, that we were making great strides.  She completely blindsided me again, my fault for trusting her. I look at my two kids and I wonder wtf I'm supposed to do? I've pulled all but roughly 4,000 dollars out of my investments in order to support her getting through school the last two years.

It feels like I have nothing left. I don't want to be in this house by myself. I am working 90 miles away because and we were treating it like a deployment in order to support our family. Now I don't even have a family to support, certainly not in the way our dreams were set up. 

And the saddest part, through all of this, I am still in love with her..  WTF is wrong with me??? How could I be stupid enough to believe this woman? Two years ago I believed my life was so perfect that we had everything going so wonderfully, when she dropped this on me out of the blue. Now she's gone to see this other man a second time.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Despite everything, I tried to fix this again, but this time, I told her "You need to get rid of him, now, immediately, no contact, nothing, it's either him or our family. Are you able to break off all ties with him?" and she shook her head "NO" and said "You won't tell me who I can and can't be friends with." Uh????? WTF? She is absolutely locked in on a divorce now anyway so that really doesn't even matter now. 

It seems like my only option is to have her remain in this house with the kids until May, when she is done with school, because I can't have the kids out where I work as I don't have a house there, I stay out there 3 nights a week and the kids would not be able to do that. 

I will be making moves to sell my house, but after that point, still not really sure what I will do. I could conceivably stay at my parents, but they are another further away from my job. My wife says she is willing to give the kids up for 9 months out of the year (wtf mom would just say that???). I told her I do NOT want my children to be taken from me out of the state. 

I'm going to be removing her name from any accounts I have, and circling the wagons to keep her from screwing me over. She says she doesn't mind using the same lawyer, so I'm going to use my lawyer. I just have to find out how that works. 

I just don't get how a woman goes 1000 miles to another state to see another man, then for 2 years gives the appearance that we are working on the marriage, then goes and sees the same man again, and states "I've just been going through the motions the last 2 years, I checked out before we even went to counseling". How does another person hurt someone so tremendously, she ripped my heart right out...


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I know I'm posting a lot, but can you guys give me whatever advice you have? 

I've gone from "Fix this" mode over to "Protect myself" mode, as my wife screws me and my children and walks from the marriage. I don't know how to recover, I feel like I'm in shock, 8 year marriage, 10 years total relationship, and she's thrown it all away because she split her heart and started chasing this other man. 

All of my goals were wrapped around this house, my family, her family, US, getting the kids into school next year (they are 5 and 3 years old, respectively). I look at my children and I want to cry. They don't deserve this, they deserved better.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> So she is still talking to him?


I'd have to say yes at this point  

She'll be talking to him long after I'm gone. 

Seeing that he is married with 2 kids, I'm tempted to have a long conversation with his wife about all of this.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Seeing that he is married with 2 kids, I'm tempted to have a long conversation with his wife about all of this.



DO IT!!! 

Do it today!

She's been in the same boat as you all these years. Let her know so she can decide what to to for herself and family like you will do now. Don't leave her in the dark so your WW and the OM decide for her.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I am looking up the phone numbers right now. I no longer have anything to lose. My family is destroyed.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Found her on Facebook. I sent her a message stating we need to talk.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Sorry about this Po, you should have thrown him under the bus two years ago. He might have been too busy making it up to his wife than spending time Facebooking with your wife. Take a look to see if the OMW has a FB account for contacts. 

I also think you finally have a lot to gain now that you know where things stand. For the first time in two years you won't be spinning your wheels and will be able to actually move forward toward a real life. One that you and your children deserve.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Found her on Facebook. I sent her a message stating we need to talk.


Ummm... you're about two years late.



Po12345 said:


> I know I'm posting a lot, but can you guys give me whatever advice you have?
> 
> I've gone from "Fix this" mode over to "Protect myself" mode, as my wife screws me and my children and walks from the marriage. I don't know how to recover, I feel like I'm in shock, 8 year marriage, 10 years total relationship, and she's thrown it all away because she split her heart and started chasing this other man.
> 
> All of my goals were wrapped around this house, my family, her family, US, getting the kids into school next year (they are 5 and 3 years old, respectively). I look at my children and I want to cry. They don't deserve this, they deserved better.


http://forum.dadsdivorce.com/viewtopic.php?t=13374


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I am going to be trying to move on, it will be very very hard. I have a great job, I make 60k a year, but my wife is stuck right in my life for 5 months till we can get rid of this house, because I can't be here to take care of my kids from 90 miles away from where I work.

I stay out there 3 nights a week and come home on friday nights, that did give me 4 nights with my family. But now I don't know how to do this. I HATE being in this house, in a way I don't know about my job, everything is depressing, trying to hard to find silver lining...


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Po, Keko's right, use his link to Dad's divorce forum. Plenty of info there. Time to get you ducks in a row. You're going to be their Dad for life. Don't let her take them away from you. You could try to go for 50/50 custody, get a place near work so they can stay with you. Stay calm, gather and use the info to make a plan that works.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Despite everything, I tried to fix this again, but this time, I told her "You need to get rid of him, now, immediately, no contact, nothing, it's either him or our family. Are you able to break off all ties with him?" and she shook her head "NO" and said "You won't tell me who I can and can't be friends with." Uh????? WTF? She is absolutely locked in on a divorce now anyway so that really doesn't even matter now.
> 
> It seems like my only option is to have her remain in this house with the kids until May, when she is done with school, because I can't have the kids out where I work as I don't have a house there, I stay out there 3 nights a week and the kids would not be able to do that.
> 
> ...


I read the first page, knew she was seeing another man and gaslighting/lying to you, so just skipped to the last page, and sure enough....

I feel sorry for you mate, stay strong.

Total exposure of the OM to his wife, with all evidence you have to make it irrefutable to her, and total exposure of your despicable wife to all friends and her family. Put the spotlight on her, and what she is. Cheaters are allergic to sunlight, it evaporates the fog they are in.


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## GetTough (Jul 18, 2010)

Realize that what you feel for her now is not love, which has trust and respect as a foundation, but you feel residual attachment, which is natural. That will fade over time. Move on, focus on protecting yourself. Top priorities are to separate all your financial accounts and ensure that you are there for the kids at every opportunity. Keep track of your time with the kids. I like to use Xpert Timer for Android.


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## jfv (May 29, 2012)

I'm so sorry that i came to this thread so late. I have to say, it was obvious that she was in an affair and that you were blaming yourself for her behavior but no one really hit you with the 2X4 that you needed for the first few months of your thread. Which surprised me. Maybe the section that you post in matters more than i realized. So sorry it ended like this. Take care of yourself.


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

I am sorry you are going through this. If your medication is not working go back to the doc and have it adjusted. Keep going to counseling and try your best not to appear needy around your wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Call her parents, her siblings, and her best friend and inform them that you are divorcing her because she is AGAIN cheating on you. Look for a home near your work as well as an au pair to watch your kids while you work. Let her run to her man and take care of your kids while her affair implodes. It will be a stressful semester for them, but no more so than it would be next summer. This way you at least have a chance of getting rid of the affair.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

She's actually divorcing me... which in a way makes this easier because I'm not the bad guy. She refuses to tell her parents, I'm going to tell them tomorrow. I'm also going to tell them about this other guy. 

Tonite I talked to this man's wife, apparently she is aware of who deanna is, my wife may have been telling the truth, that nothing physical ever happened, but (if you believe his wife) but that doesn't change the fact that my wife is in love with this guy and that she lied about seeing him, twice now. 

I asked the other man's wife to please have her husband block my wife completely on facebook and cut off all ties, I said "I do not judge your husband, I do not know him, all I know is that my wife has issues and she is infactuated and in love with your husband and that has to stop if there is any hope for her, not even talking about my marrige, talking about her mental state".

I had a very good talk with his wife, I hope it is enough for her to get her husband to leave my wife along completely on facebook and never ever talk to her again. 

This isn't about saving my marriage anymore, I called to inform the wife but apparently she's aware of it, she said they have attended counseling. I told her "Your husband may not have feelings for my wife, I do not know, but my wife is very much in love with him". Either way it is not healthy and my wife needs to get over it, even if that means it isn't with me.

Aside from that, yah hurting tonite. I spent two years thinking this was my problem to fix when in fact she's the one who started the problem. That being said though, I'm still as messed up as I have ever been in my entire life


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Tonite I talked to this man's wife, apparently she is aware of who deanna is, my wife may have been telling the truth, *that nothing physical ever happened*, but (if you believe his wife) but that doesn't change the fact that my wife is in love with this guy and that she lied about seeing him, twice now.


Really?

Your wife would go to another state and not have sex? Wait for two more years, go to a different country and not have sex? All that hassle for a cup of coffee and come back clean as a whistle? My man, I got a bridge to sell you.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

keko said:


> Really?
> 
> Your wife would go to another state and not have sex? Wait for two more years, go to a different country and not have sex? All that hassle for a cup of coffee and come back clean as a whistle? My man, I got a bridge to sell you.


Well, it doesn't really matter much at this point... but I did read her private journal where she wrote a bunch of horrific stuff about me, and all these fantasies about him. 

I think the worst thing about something like this is when you get a bad counselor(s) who do not force the issue with the cheating spouse (even if she didn't have sex she still cheated, trust me on that one). We went to three different counselors and none of them ever hammered the issue, so I'm sure in my wife's mind, she believes she did nothing wrong. And so what did she do? She did it again.

I have to be honest about this, I would much rather she just fxxxed him the first time two years ago, got it over with, we move on and get help and fix things. Instead she faked it all through counseling, she made me believe things were okay, then went to see him again and said "I've just been going through the motions for 2 years."

What I'm trying to do now is live my life for my children, just do what I have to do for them to make their lives better, and to somehow shield them from the massive amount of pain they are going to have to endure once this marriage does finally fail completely.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I've altered the first post of my thread here to more accurately reflect exactly what has happened since this all began. 

I really really want anyone who is dealing with an unfaithful spouse to never ever do what I did. Do NOT listen to counselors who blame you... do NOT try to fix the problem yourself, it is NOT your problem to fix. Certainly counselors may tell you about things you can work on but understand this ONE most important fact: If your spouse cheats, be it emotional OR physical, it is THEIR responsibility to make amends and bend over backwards to rebuild that trust that they so carelessly destroyed. Don't be like me and spend 2 years trying to fix an issue that was never yours to fix in the first place...

Insist that your spouse give you all passwords, or even give up Facebook (or whatever it is) entirely, insist on a counselor that actually addresses what your spouse did, if your spouse refuses to change, MOVE OUT, do NOT stay around, take the kids with you if you must, but do NOT put up with the bullxxx!!! I was a fool, don't be like me.


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## goodmans (Jan 2, 2013)

People think that the most painful thing in life is losing the one you value. The truth is the most painful thing is losing yourself in the process of valuing someone too much and forgetting that you are special too.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

goodmans said:


> People think that the most painful thing in life is losing the one you value. The truth is the most painful thing is losing yourself in the process of valuing someone too much and forgetting that you are special too.




unbelievably true... I don't even know who I am anymore *sigh*


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

I know your pain first hand. I was in the Army in Germany. Wife of ONE year needed more than I could give while I was out in the field. Kept asking her "What was wrong?" she would not say. No sex for me, but plenty for most of the base. It took me years to figure out that SHE WAS BROKEN and it was not my fault. I started running 5, 10, 15 miles just to numb the pain but also to prove to myself that I was an OK guy and that I could recover. I discovered that everyday is a gift, you are alone in this life but you have people near you, but IT IS YOUR LIFE! You make you happy, You make you smile, You make you laugh, and you only get so many minutes to do it before you die.So, you can MAKE yourself be loved and happy by YOU or, you can be SAD by YOU. Each moment is your alone and its your choice. Good life or bad life, its up to you. Just my 2 cents David


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