# The immovable object.



## Holdingontoit

Several posters have called me out in John117's thread. To avoid threadjacking, I am creating this thread and will refrain from commenting on my situation on John's thread.

For the record, I am not looking to resolve my personal or marital problems. I have invested almost 20,000 posts on various marriage forums over the past 13+ years. I have tried everything I am interested in trying. At this point have given up hope of making major changes and am pursuing a different path and a different payoff.

This thread is intended to provide the backstory to those of you who do not know me form other forums so you will understand my background and perspective when I post on other threads.

Married 23 years next month. 2 kids - S20 and D18. Classic victim of bait and switch. Sex stopped literally the day we got married. No sex wedding night. Sex at first honeymoon hotel after which H2 announces "now it is consummated and you cannot get it annulled". No further sex during honeymoon (got turned down every night "too tired" etc) except last night when I had to beg. Should have filed for annulment upon airplane touching down back in USA. But I was foolish and believed in vows, better or worse, marriage involves work, etc. Stupid me.

Five years later we have 2 kids and go away for week's vacation. As with honeymoon, sex only 1 time and numerous turndowns. Including the night of our anniversary, after taking her to dinner in the same restaurant where I proposed, watching fireworks, then staying in fancy hotel. Upon return home, I insist on MC to address sexless marriage.

We spent 8 years in MC with various MCs and sex therapists. Not once did H2 do any of the "homework" assignments. Not once did H2 live up to agreements we made. Went on vacation several times during this period. No sex. One of the MCs even said to her "your H works hard to support you as a SAHM, I know you work hard caring for the kids but next week you are going to be away from home at a hotel alone with your H with no responsibilities, don't you think that maybe you could have some sex with him on vacation?" You guessed it, no sex on vacation either.

2 years into MC H2 admitted she had been raped multiple times. She maintains that the rapes have no impact on her sexuality and gets violently angry if I suggest perhaps they do. Shortly after disclosing the rapes, H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit card debt. That was a decade ago and we are still not recovered from the financial devastation.

Ten years ago our last MC "fired" us saying "if you are not going to make any changes, then you are wasting your time and mine talking to me. I can't keep stealing your money."

D18 leaves for college in the fall. Many would say now is the time to divorce. I have no interest in doing so.

I was unhappy as a single person before marriage. Not very successful with females. Hence my susceptibility to H2's allure. And my skepticism as to whether a happy life would await me after divorce. I was unhappy when I was young and had much potential workwise (professionally, I have not lived up to my academic accomplishments) and could offer the prospect of raising children together. I cannot envision being anything but unhappy now that I am older and relatively unsuccessful and no longer have "I will be a great dad to your kids" as a selling point. I never had friends. I never did much but come home to my apartment and watch tv / play computer games. No point in divorcing for that, I can do that while married to H2.

The bottom line is that I am clinically depressed if not a full blown personality disorder. The work needed to overcome that is more than I am willing to invest. Then there is the impotence, much of which is caused by my lack of exercise and my unhealthy diet. I have been in therapy and took A-D meds on and off since age 17. Never made any difference in my mood or outlook. I did exercise for a time. Ran a half marathon. Dismal results and hated every minute of training. I did a course of P90X. Got in good shape. Did not feel any better and made no difference to H2.

To get to "happiness" I would need to invest time and money (which, with 2 kids in college, I have none of) to work on myself physically and mentally. Major therapy. Maybe ECT. Change diet. Exercise more. All in the hope that it might make a difference and that I could become someone I have never been. Non-depressed.

I have been depressed as long as I can remember. Back to nursery school. The concept that if I worked hard enough and invested enough effort I could overcome the depression seems impossible to me.

What I know is that divorce blows up my world. Kids take a hit. I take a huge financial hit (in my state 20+ year marriages lead to permanent alimony). I can't afford to retire ever as it is. How will I make ends meet on half of "not enough"? You are going to try to convince me I will meet some wonderful woman who is financially comfortable and wants to take me on as a reclamation project? Really? So what is "for sure" is that there are huge practical and financial and emotional downsides. All in the hope of a better future? It doesn't even come close to balancing.

Of course, it would balance if you assigned a large negative value to living unhappy and depressed. I do not. This is how I have lived my whole life. I don't know anything else. So to me, this is not negative. This is baseline. This is how life is.

You might feel compelled to entice me with fantasy stories about how I can learn to be happy. H2 enticed me with those same stories. Look how that turned out. I am not gong to be fooled twice.


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## kristin2349

Your post reminds me of another member who no longer posts here (CopperTop). He was as stuck as you are, sorry it sounds like a miserable way to live.


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## Anon Pink

I bet you think you're being a realist as you list your failures and dismal outlook on life and your potential happiness.

Do you really believe that the past 20 years have been nothing but failure? 
You've been able to keep a roof over your family's head.
Food on the table.
Family vacations.
Paid for cars and their upkeep.
Clothing on everyone's back.
Both kids in college, not drinking, not drugging and not procreating. Probably safe to assume their not breaking laws...
Your kids are well adjusted, have friends, have significant relationships, demonstrate care and concern for others.

You had nothing to do with any of those accomplishments and successes?

Depression is both a mood and a method of thinking. If you can force yourself to think more positively, you elevate your mood, which makes thinking more positively a bit easier, which elevates your mood a bit more, which makes thinking positively even easier, which further elevates your mood.

So go back and look at that list again...what can you add to it that Internet strangers might not be aware of?

It doesn't matter whether you stay with your wife or not. Once you tackle your depression, anything is possible.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: Do I know you from somewhere else?

I have done therapy and taken A-D meds many times over the decades. Starting when I was 17 and on and off every decade or so. No treatment ever made any difference (except some of the A-D meds caused weight gain and rendered me anorgasmic). Every time they announce a new A-D med I think about going back, but I am skeptical anything would work. Which I know is partly the depression talking but partly the result of decades of trying and failing. I really think if anything might work it is ECT but the risk of memory problems rules that out for me. I have a wife and 2 kids to support, not enough money saved to retire and I cannot risk a treatment that could render me unable to work at my current position. I would be willing to try ECT after I retire. Oh wait, I forgot, at the pace we are on I will never be able to afford to retire.

Long winded way of saying I have no intention of "tackling" my depression. I don't believe anything worth trying is going to work, and I don't enjoy the side effects.

By the time we are done paying for D18's college I will be too old to consider blowing things up and starting over.

H2 is becoming a better partner lately. On the physical side, she frequently reaches for my hand at night or when we are out walking. She occasionally initiates snuggle sessions. She is even willing to consent to sex from time to time. Now I am the one who "refuses" by refraining from initiating even when she sends signals she would be willing to consent. On the financial side, she is becoming more aware. Years ago she justified her overspending by telling herself "H is super smart and will eventually earn enough to pay this off". Now she sees that I am never going to earn that much and we need to cut down on spending. She saw it impact where the kids go to college and she hates that (I warned her 14 years ago that might be the case but she did not believe me). She sees that there will be no retirement for me and no travel for her if we do not cut down our spending. So while she is by no means frugal she is finally recognizing that there is no money tree in the back yard and my earning power is limited and she needs to tighten her belt. She is even looking for a full time job so she can generate more spending money for herself now that I have to deflect her "allowance" toward paying for college.

Things are slowly improving. Well, as long as you count not fighting over sex because I have yielded the field to her as "improvement" (I get so ashamed of my impotence that I refuse to have sex). But there is more affection. She is getting better on the financial side. And lately she smiles when I compliment her, instead of frowning and accusing me of just trying to get into her pants. So the day to day is better than back when we were fighting over sex and locking horns over her constant overspending.

You might want me to press for even more. I am simply unwilling to do so.


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## Anon1111

H--

if you don't want to do anything to change your situation, can you just accept it?

I'm not trying to insult you, but there is a disconnect between all of the reasons you list for why no change makes sense and yet you have an obvious seething resentment for your situation.

No doubt this has been pointed out to you before, but I wonder how you have resolved that in your own mind.


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## Holdingontoit

Can I accept it? No.

I don't see any disconnect. All my choices are sub-optimal given my treatment resistant depression. The fact that I chose one doesn't mean I am pleased with it. I am a seething ball of resentment because I hate that I am too lazy and negative to even try to create new alternatives. To some, that would suggest that I should do the work and try to create additional options. To me, it just reinforces my determination to punish myself for being weak.

What did you expect? Don't you think most suicide bombers are seething balls of resentment when they strap on the explosive vest?

Some people when facing the Kobayashi Maru scenario find acceptance. Some go down fighting. Some try to cheat death and reprogram the simulator. And some of us overload the engines and blow ourselves up, hoping to take down the enemy with us. Kahn triggered the Genesis device. Not all of us are cut out to be heroes.


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## Anon1111

OK, you don't want to change your situation. I got that.

How about learning how to let all of the things you hate pass through you? Wouldn't that be nice instead of collecting them inside, ruminating on them and stoking that flame?

I know it sounds dumb, but I am totally serious.

Ask yourself, it is the thing itself the problem or simply your reaction to it? Some people can learn to be OK even in prison, with cancer, etc. How do they manage to let that stuff go? Wouldn't you like to learn that trick? Even if it is just a trick, does it really matter if it helps? What is more real, your pain or the world outside your pain? Do you hide in a world of pain because it is what you know so well? 

I do not say any of this to diminish you.

I don't flatter myself to think that there isn't some therapist out there who hasn't already said this to you. But maybe you never really heard them. It is hard to listen to someone explain yourself to you. If you're like me, you resist that.

Edit: There is a disconnect because you say you don't want to change, but your emtional state suggests you desperately want to change. It is tearing you up inside, yet you do nothing. This is not an internally consistent position.


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## alexm

Holdingontoit said:


> You might feel compelled to entice me with fantasy stories about how I can learn to be happy. H2 enticed me with those same stories. Look how that turned out. I am not gong to be fooled twice.



You might not learn to be happy, but you can certainly be less unhappy if you take relatively minor steps to do so.

For example - I promise you there is somebody out there who is a better match for you. More often than not, this person appears without one looking for them. Will they make you ecstatic? Maybe not. Less unhappy? Absolutely.

There is another woman your age out there, who likes pc gaming, Star Trek, and hates working out, and anything else that you happen to be. I promise you. She also likes sex.

Now, your state of mind, as you suggest, may have little or nothing to do with your wife, but you are here, aren't you? If you had truly given up and accepted your lot in life, you wouldn't be here venting. You wouldn't have spent 13+ years on message boards looking for answers. So you're not as accepting as you think you are.

Let me tell you a little secret - divorce and alimony is not the end of the world. Everybody dies at some point, and you can't take it with you, so why not live the best life you can live? You don't have to reach your full potential, or cure cancer, or invent a better doo-dad or anything like that. You just have to be happy. And in order to take the first steps towards being happy, you need to remove the negative from your life. Getting rid of the bad wife baggage may only be the first step, but that's just it, it's a first step.


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## kristin2349

You have listed so many reasons why you can't and wont change yourself or your situation. Why do you expect your wife to?


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## soccermom2three

It seems like you've accepted your lot in life. The only thing I suggest is having frank discussions with your kids about mate selection so they don't end up with a marriage like yours.


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## Dragunov

H, get a hobby.

Start going fishing, or shooting, or learn to play the guitar or accordion or paint with water colors. Heck, even jerking off to porn would probably be better for you at this point than sitting alone and being miserable.


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## Catherine602

Encourage your wife to get full-time employment and to share in the expenses of college. Gradually decrease her allowance for unnecessary spending. No vacations, w/e's away or fancy dinners. Have alone time at home. A picnic in the backyard or a park. Go to a free outdoor concert with some sandwiches and cheap wine. Go to Mickie Ds or Royal Minced Meat (Burger King)for a special treat. You figure out the rest. If you need to cut up credit cards then do it. Right now you are the nice heavily burdened mule of the family. Time for the mule to kick some azz. Get noticed, get some appreciation. You might get your testosterone levels up and who knows... :smile2:

Are your children taking out some loans to decrease the burden on you? They should take out loans. There is no reason that they should not invest in their own education. You should be investing that money to your retirement. Will they support Mom and Dad when they complete their education? Have they tried to get grants or scholarships? Do they work or intend to work? If not get them on it. No extras for them either. If they want something, they need to work for it. 

You have taken on too much in your family. Why this is so is up to you to discover. Ok, don't go to therapy or take meds definitely no money on MC. There are milder treatments for depression these days. It's should be trial and error to find the right combination. Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation: An Alternative Depression Treatment. Read about the new treatment on the Mayo Clinic site. http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...h/treatment-resistant-depression/art-20044324 

There is a lot that you can do personally to improve your life that has nothing to do with intimacy with your wife. You have expended all of your energy in that direction. Simply asking others to pick up the slack would make a tremendous change in the direction of your life. Do less and they will pick up where you left off. The question is - will you do it?


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## john117

Marital Cold War (super 180) until your younger is out of college then divorce regardless of cost... Meanwhile reign in spending, no quality time, etc. Let her marry the TV.


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## Anon1111

Do you do any type of physical activity?

I'm sure you know that regular exercise can be more effective than antidepressants for some people. 

If you do nothing, can you start just taking a 20 minute walk every day? Try that for a month straight and see how it affects your outlook. 

While walking, focus just on the act of walking. Let that be your time when you clear your head. 

For me, exercise is the easiest way to focus on the thing in front of me. You may never take a break mentally from your problems-- this is a good way to clear your head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## leon2100

now I'm depressed!


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## Holdingontoit

Appreciate all the replies.

Anon: I tried exercise. I ran a half marathon. I did a cycle of P90X. I was in good shape. Did not improve my mood. Well, actually, the half marathon worsened my mood. After 6 months of training I came in pretty much last of all the participants, including the walkers and the people over age 70. I didn't enjoy the training (and I was part of a charity-based group that provided training materials, met weekly to do long runs, and provided moral support). And the race itself was humiliating. I did not feel any sense of satisfaction from finishing. I felt embarrassed that it took me so long they were tearing down the last few water stations before I got to them.

As for TMS, I looked into that. They opened a center near me. Costs $12,000. Not happening. Then they would not take me for regular therapy because I don't have records of all my previous therapists, the meds I took, etc.

As for talking to my kids about mate selection, I have done this and expect to continue to do it. H2 will not be pleased with some of the things I have to share. So timing is delicate. And no, the kids do not need to know all our problems. Or details. But there is a component to sexual mismatch that needs to be placed onto the table, which understandably makes H2 very nervous.

As for finding someone else, well, I am sure you guys (and gals) are correct that there are other women with whom I would enjoy spending time. Or even being married. Where we part company is believing that any of them would desire to spend any time with me. You will never convince me that is possible. Which is a pretty darn self-fulfilling prophesy. And one I am determined never to test empirically. As several people said to john117, my bitterness and resentment will shine through and no decent woman would give me the time of day. So if I am not going to learn to drop the bitterness and be happy, no point in divorcing her to seek someone else.

Like I said before, I don't expect to ever accept this. I know I am being a moron. Still, I don't expect to change, either. I get too much payoff from making a game of seeing if I can get my wife to stay married to me despite my depression. I figure since she baited and switched me, she can't complain if I sink some hooks into her in return. I know being this way is destroying my soul, but when you have spent pretty much every waking moment since toddler-hood unhappy, can't say my soul ever did me much good.


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## MarriedTex

I understand the feeling of being unhappy throughout all of life's stages. It can be a challenge. In a way, you are correct to not pursue a divorce at this point. If your unhappiness is that long-standing, the root of your challenge probably is not in your marital relationship.

Have you engaged in individual counseling as a way to walk yourself through your personal history? I sense quite a bit of "what's the use, I will fail anyway" attitude in your writing. While pragmatic in some cases, this approach is caustic is applied in EVERY aspect of your life. You need to work with a counselor to identify one aspect of your existence where you can develop confidence in yourself and your abilities. Then, you build from there. Best of luck.


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## Anon1111

I am going to stay on the exercise thing for a minute.

It sounds like you chose the wrong mode of exercise.

Cut out the competitive aspect. Cut out the public display aspect. You hated coming in last, humiliating yourself. OK, that makes sense. So don't put yourself in that position.

P90X is not sustainable for most people. It's like ripping a bandaid off. Great in the short term but you can't always be so intense.

Do something more low key. Can you just get a weight set and do that at home? Make the process really methodical. Stack the weights on the bar slowly. Breathe properly, focus on the weight, use perfect form. It sounds rote but it can put you in a peaceful place. Then, you will gain strength physically and mentally. Nobody needs to know but you. You will have little accomplishments each week as you are able to lift slightly more.

Make it easy. Don't torture yourself. Let it build very, very slowly. Don't question it, just do it, every day. 20 minutes. Could you do that?


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## Holdingontoit

MT: Did talk therapy at age 17 before leaving for college. College was a disaster. Did talk therapy (individual and group) after graduate school. Zero impact.

Week before first child was born, my partners kicked me out of my firm. Nice, huh? Went to talk therapy and got put on meds for the first time. Tried several meds. Some caused severe side effects. Some did not. None made much of a difference. Thankfully S20 was born healthy and I eventually got another job in another town and started over. Made partner again. Was doing IC and meds. Things were going OK (except for the sex).

Then the infamous "no sex" 5th anniversary vacation and the ultimatum to do MC. Continued to do IC and meds while doing MC. Then discovery of the huge financial betrayal by H2. Continued doing MC and IC and meds but nothing could make an impact given the betrayal both sexual and financial.

Headhunter communicated job opening 700 miles away. I interviewed thinking if I got the job I would divorce H2 and leave the kids with her and start over far away. Got the job. Couldn't bear to leave my kids. H2 and kids came with me to new job. Found a local IC and stayed on meds. Tried various ICs and meds. Nothing works. Pretty much every waking moment I am not hugging my kids (not appropriate to do so often now that they are grown) is unhappy.

So where does that leave me? I was a nice guy who didn't divorce his wife over disappointing honeymoon and pre-kid year and where did that get me? I was nice guy who trusted his partners at startup firm and where did that get me? I was nice guy who shared his finances with his wife and where did that get me? I am DONE being nice. Of course, I don't have the guts to be openly aggressive. So I am the king of passive-aggression. I sabotage everything. Mostly myself, but as long as H2 gets hit by some splash damage I am satisfied. It is not like I am ever going to be successful or happy or even content.

This is simply too much for me to handle. We are talking years of daily therapy, meds, maybe ECT or TMS to get over this. Serious stuff. Far more than I am willing to invest in chasing what I perceive as a slim chance of success. If I can keep my job and pay the bills and my kids can graduate college without much debt that is enough for me. I am not willing to rock the boat and shake things up and risk losing my career and my income (no savings so without steady income the ship goes down pretty darn fast) to search for a unicorn.

I agree with all of you that this stinks. Nevertheless, it could be worse. I can handle this. I have been handling it for 50+ years. I have been handling it for the 10 years since we stopped MC and I realized our sex life was never going to fulfill my needs much less live up to my dreams. I do not want to find out whether or not I can handle things getting worse. I know I am blessed and have many things to be thankful for in my life. I am not going to throw them away questing for a grail. You will never convince me it is anything but a figment of someone's imagination.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> I am going to stay on the exercise thing for a minute.
> 
> It sounds like you chose the wrong mode of exercise.


Bzzz. Wrong. thank you for playing.

I also tried going to a gym and working machines. I also tried watching classes on Fit tv in my basement. I also tried dvds less intense than P90X (again alone in my basement). Never felt good about myself.



Anon1111 said:


> Make it easy. Don't torture yourself. Let it build very, very slowly. Don't question it, just do it, every day. 20 minutes. Could you do that?


No. H2 wants a partner who is fit. She had one. She spurned me. Now I will not give her the satisfaction of having a fit partner. She can have weak soft bodied me. She doesn't find me attractive? So what? It is not like we are having sex so what difference does it make?

She leaves me over being out of shape. Bingo. I win. I outlasted her. She gets to be the "bad guy" who blew up our marriage. She gets to tell the kids she is leaving me, who has done nothing over the past 20+ years but kiss her butt. And maybe she will find a rich guy to marry who can buy them the things I will never be able to afford.

I got what I wanted. I raised them. I got to live with them every night while they were growing. I got to tuck them into bed and kiss them good night. I got to go camping and drive them to activities and cheer their failures and successes. No other guy got to raise them. I don't have to worry about a stream of suitors dating H2 and molesting my daughter. Even if H2 remarries, D18 will want me to walk her down the aisle. That is what I hoped for when I refused to abandon them 14 years ago. My hope has been fulfilled.

Unfortunately, I do not have any hopes left for myself.


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## Anon1111

I'm not coming at the exercise thing for the effects it will have on your body or on your wife's perception of you. Frankly, from the way you've described your marriage, I don't even think it really exists. It's a name with no content.

I'm talking about exercise as a way to help you feel better mentally.

I am not trying to insult you-- you already know this-- but you are soft and indulgent mentally.

It is hard to get a handle on that sort of thing. I personally find it is easier to see the benefit of mental focus/clarity in a physical activity. I believe many people are similarly wired.

You've done some different activities and you do nothing now (based on what you've said). Doing nothing is not working out so well for you. You've not exhausted all possibilities. You indulge in making excuses for yourself. But you get no satisfaction from this. So why not stop making excuses and just do something?


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## Anon1111

Bad stuff happens to everyone, not just you. It's how you deal with it that matters.

You will never find a perfect outcome. Focusing on that instead of focusing on how to simply do BETTER is a mistake. Just put one foot in front of the other.

how do alcoholics stop drinking? One day at a time. If you focus on the enormity of not drinking, you will never make it.

can you apply the same thought process to your life?


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: Here is the cycle I am locked in. I agree with you that bad stuff happens to everyone, and what matters is how you deal with it. I deal poorly. When the going gets tough, I get stupid and wimp out. That is how my FIL (may he rest in piece) described me, and he was correct.

Having spent 50+ years being worthless and weak, I now believe I deserve to be miserable. I am not trying to make things better. I am not trying to create a successful marriage. I am trying to endure a bad marriage so I deliver to myself the punishment I deserve. Hard to do for decades. Intellectually I realize it is stupid and counter-productive. I understand that whatever part of me has any sense left is fighting against this process and result. Which is why I ceaselessly agonize on Internet forums. But don't you see the brilliance of this? Agonizing on Internet forums is the outlet the sick part of me permits to the healthy part. I give the healthy part an outlet. I give it hope. I give it a chance to vent. Then when it has "caught it breath", I go back to torturing it. After 13 years, the sick part of me has this down to a science.

If I did some exercise and felt better about myself, that would make my job harder? Why? Harder to justify staying in a bad marriage when you feel you deserve better. If I felt better about myself, I would be tempted either to go back to working to improve my marriage or to divorce H2. We can't have that Anon. That would remove the focus of my resentment and my excuse for inaction and put the onus on me to make a better life for myself. No, feeling better about myself because I got into better shape is exactly what I will not permit me to do.

You can call out to the decent and good and healthy part of me all you want. It avails not. I have turned to the dark side. The sick part of me is in complete control.

Doesn't mean I can't give good advice to others. I know what someone who is healthy SHOULD do to improve their situation. I simply have no intention of implementing that advice myself.

Like I said, this thread was intended to provide background so people who read my advice could know where I was coming from and prevent threadjacks from john117's thread. It is not meant to be a help thread. There is no hope left for me. There is a part of me desperately crying out in despair for release. Don't worry, I have him securely shackled. He'll never get free.


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## Anon1111

H--

Heavy! Fatalistic!

You are who you want to be. You want to be a good guy, you believe you are a good guy underneath it all-- guess what, you ARE that good guy.

I'm not going to convince you, you can see it for yourself. 

You could change in an instant. It is possible. You are so close to it.


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## Lostinthought61

H,

there are a lot of martyrs out there in this world, married to people they shouldn't be married too, in they stay in for a host of reasons (Money (lack of it or to comfortable with the good life), no where to go, no eduction , no desire to pursue self happiness in themselves, no one else will have them (or so they think), attitude, mentally stuck, kids) so i get that, and when they die, they die mostly with wishing that life had been different for them, but they die anyway alone in their thoughts. No one will remember them as martyrs and in some cases their children will repeat the cycle because that is the role model they see...and BTW you don't not divorce someone for someone...ever and i mean ever...you divorce because of you, and you need to escape a bad situation, escape the wrong marriage, but you escape for you, regardless if you ever find another woman again...you escape to create a better world for you. Find your bliss and if it ain't with Mrs. H then find it else where...its not her job to make you happy that responsibility is all yours.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: I do not want to change. I do not want upheaval. I want balance. I want to believe that I bring to the table what H2 brings. No less. No more. If she does not bring her sexuality to the table, that is a big negative for me. I will make sure I bring enough negatives to the table to balance things out. If I exercised and got into better shape, I would be bringing too much to the table. Homey don't play that game.

Xenote: You are correct. I have many regrets. I expect to accumulate many more. I expect to die viewing most of my life as wasted time. Not looking for anyone to remember me as a martyr. Not looking for Mrs. Hold the make me happy. Gave up on that years ago. Not looking to find my bliss. Do not believe it exists.

Like I said, I have many blessings. Health. Children. A wife who loves me. More now than before. She never believed that I truly see her as beautiful and smart and competent until we stopped having sex. Now she sees that my compliments were sincere, because I continue to give them freely even though we don't have sex. We like the same foods. We like many of the same tv shows. We are devoted to our children. I think we will be compatible in our old age. It just requires me to give up on sex. Which makes it feel like capitulation to me. Like I lost and she won. I know that is all in my head. But I refuse to let it go. She can make me stop having sex by raising the price (divorce) above what I am willing to pay. But she cannot make me like it. That is the small piece of myself I will never give away. She cannot make me like it.


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## Marduk

Dude, if getting to a better place meant you had to let go of your delusions and what you thought your identity was, would you do it?

Or are you looking to dull the pain just enough to survive?

These are two different things.


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## Anon1111

OK, come at this from a different angle.

what drives you. anything? you seem like a smart guy. do you apply that to anything?


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: I do not want to change. I do not want upheaval. I want balance. I want to believe that I bring to the table what H2 brings. No less. No more. If she does not bring her sexuality to the table, that is a big negative for me. I will make sure I bring enough negatives to the table to balance things out. If I exercised and got into better shape, I would be bringing too much to the table. Homey don't play that game.


OK, it's just a word but this does not sound like "balance" to me.

Do you really think it makes sense to organize your sense of self around a tit for tat contest with your wife?

You clearly see how massively flawed this is and yet you call it balance?

Block your wife out of the picture. Focus on balance within your own self. She is a side show man.


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## lifeistooshort

It strikes me that both of you are extremely damaged. Have you considered what it's actually like to live with you? Given your history of issues do you really think you'd be a peach to live with if only you got more sex? How do you imagine your attitude and demeanor will turn someone on? 

I'd ask your wife the same thing if she were here but she's not so I'm asking you. As in what it's like to live with her.

See you guys are a very poor match because you're both extremely needy. Your wife is a rape victim and needed a husband who could really be her rock emotionally. That's not you. 

You have a history of self loathing and depression and need an extremely strong partner. Dealing with someone that has such extreme depression and self loathing is soul sucking and a lot of women couldn't handle it, let alone someone damaged like your wife. And I'd bet you're way too hard on yourself, but if you think you're worthless so will everyone else. 

Why would you stay heavy and unhealthy to stick it to your wife? Being in good shape is good for you. Unless it's really a covert contract, which never works. You've got to get some intensive counseling for yourself. .... your wife can't fix your issues and some more sex won't fix your issues

And for as po'd as you walk around over her sex issues you've always known she's lIke this and yet you stuck around and had kids with her. At what point do you accept some responsibility for your own choices? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fozzy

You've already shown yourself to be capable of identifying when it's the depression talking. Use that ability. Depression MAKES you want to give up. It MAKES you feel like you don't deserve to be happy. It MAKES you want to wallow in resentment.

It did all that to me too. That made me angry, and I used that rage to change. Then one day I realized I felt better. It was like a fog cleared in my mind and my thought patterns were just...different.

I'm right there with you when it comes to exercise. If it's not something I enjoy doing for it's own sake, I just don't have motivation. I don't like being looked at while I exercise. I detested going to the gym. I did as Anon111 suggested above--bought a weight bench on Craigslist and started at it a few times a week in my garage. 

I also found that sunlight made a difference to me--again as long as it was doing something enjoyable. While I like watching a movie in my living room more than pulling weeds in my back yard, just spending a half hour out in the sun would often make a noticeable difference in my mood. Not jumping for joy or anything, but those weights around my ankles trying to drag me underwater would be a little lighter.

Most of all though--the biggest thing for me was finally letting go of my resentment. I'm a ruminator, which doesn't mix well with depression. The meds, the exercise etc helped, but I couldn't get over the hump until I stopped drinking my own poison.


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## Holdingontoit

John, I see you have liked some of my posts on this thread. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Part of my creating this thread was in the hope you would see how dark and negative is this line of thinking. If you are doing what I am doing, you are a very weak and foolish person. I know I am. I get the impression you do not see yourself that way. I am not suggesting you should aim to think or behave any particular way. I am suggesting that you be honest with yourself about your choices.

I polish my pearl of resentment to a luminous sheen. It is my precious. Do not fool yourself into thinking you are not doing the same if you are. Remember, in the end Gollum saved Middle Earth. But he was not intending to do good when he did so.


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## Mr. Nail

I remember the funk I was in months ago. I felt hopeless. There seemed to be no light in the future. Just a slow decline to death. Unlike H, I was ready to consider divorce not because I saw some better opportunity, but because I saw an escape. The escape was from the constant reminders of what had been. Seeing the prize I desired so close every day. Being taken by no one but still refused to me was almost a physical pain.
H, I can't help you. You have no happy past to remember. No goal for a future. Perhaps the path of least resistance is best for your relationship. It is too bad that your profession has left you with no solace. Most in your position would have a hobby.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Classic victim of bait and switch. Sex stopped literally the day we got married. No sex wedding night. Sex at first honeymoon hotel after which H2 announces "now it is consummated and you cannot get it annulled".



This is amazing. This just screams I'M A RAGING *****. I am amazed you did not walk away right then and there.


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## Holdingontoit

LITS: I agree with you. We are both damaged. Neither willing to do the work to heal. We frequently say that most people tend to marry someone roughly as messed up as they are. They we laugh and say "hah, and you married ME, so what does that say about YOU?!?!"

I also agree with you I am no peach. I admitted I am not an attractive partner. Not asking my wife to fix me. Not asking for sex. In fact, these days I turn her down when she offers.

I understand I made my choices. Wish I had not barged into having children with her as soon as we got married. The no sex honeymoon should have been sufficient warning. But we were in our 30s and wanted to have kids before we got much older. We proceeded to have 2 kids. I was working full time, trying to get a company started on the side, and doing all the overnight feedings and changings. It wasn't until we took our first post-marriage vacation and there was little sex that I realized this was not "I have 2 little kids at home and I'm tired" but was a relationship problem.

I understand that healthy people would get over it and move on. And make healthy choices. And make the best of their situation. I am not healthy. And I am not looking to get treated. So the floggings (mine of me) will continue. I would say "until morale improves" but I know my morale is never going to improve.

Fozzy: I am not going to let go of my resentment. I am addicted to it. I know it is poison. I drink it anyway. I revel in it. Resentment is my lover. She is entirely faithful to me. She never rejects me. The only thing she asks of me is that I sacrifice myself on her altar. No problem. I wanted to do that for my wife. She (understandably and properly) spurned my offering. Now I worship a different goddess.

Like I said, I am not looking to heal. I stand as an example of "what not to do" and "what not to become". I am the outcome every person complaining about the lack of sex but unwilling to establish boundaries should fear the most. Do everything you can to fix it. Right now. With urgency. But if it cannot be fixed. Get out before you lose yourself. Get out before it twists and mangles you into someone that doesn't want to get out and doesn't want to fix it and just rolls around in the filth of their self pity.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> LITO: I agree with you. I said I am not an attractive partner. Not asking my wife to fix me. Not asking for sex. In fact, these days I turn her down when she offers.
> 
> I understand I made my choices. Wish I had not barged into having children with her as soon as we got married. The no sex honeymoon should have been sufficient warning. But we were in our 30s and wanted to have kids before we got much older. We had 2 kids. I was working full time, trying to get a company started on the side, and doing all the overnight feedings and changings. It wasn't until we took our first post-marriage vacation and there was little sex that I realized this was not "I have 2 little kids at home and I'm tired" but was a relationship problem.
> 
> I understand that healthy people would get over it and move on. And make healthy choices. And make the best of their situation. I am not healthy. And I am not looking to get treated. So the floggings (mine of me) will continue. I would say "until morale improves" but I know my morale is never going to improve.
> 
> Fozzy: I am not going to let go of my resentment. I am addicted to it. I know it is poison. I drink it anyway. I revel in it. Resentment is my lover. She is entirely faithful to me. She never rejects me. The only thing she asks of me is that I sacrifice myself on her altar. No problem. I wanted to do that for my wife. She (understandably and properly) spurned my offering. Now I worship a different goddess.
> 
> Like I said, I am not looking to heal. I stand as an example of "what not to do" and "what not to become". I am the outcome every person complaining about the lack of sex but unwilling to establish boundaries should fear the most. Do everything you can to fix it. Right now. With urgency. But if it cannot be fixed. Get out before you lose yourself. Get out before it twists and mangles you into someone that doesn't want to get out and doesn't want to fix it and just rolls around in the filth of their self pity.


You said you have children. This is not a good model for your children.


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## Fozzy

Holdingontoit said:


> LITO: I agree with you. I said I am not an attractive partner. Not asking my wife to fix me. Not asking for sex. *In fact, these days I turn her down when she offers.*


How often does she try to initiate?


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## Anon1111

Fozzy said:


> You've already shown yourself to be capable of identifying when it's the depression talking. Use that ability. Depression MAKES you want to give up. It MAKES you feel like you don't deserve to be happy. It MAKES you want to wallow in resentment.
> 
> It did all that to me too. That made me angry, and I used that rage to change. Then one day I realized I felt better. It was like a fog cleared in my mind and my thought patterns were just...different.
> 
> I'm right there with you when it comes to exercise. If it's not something I enjoy doing for it's own sake, I just don't have motivation. I don't like being looked at while I exercise. I detested going to the gym. I did as Anon111 suggested above--bought a weight bench on Craigslist and started at it a few times a week in my garage.
> 
> I also found that sunlight made a difference to me--again as long as it was doing something enjoyable. While I like watching a movie in my living room more than pulling weeds in my back yard, just spending a half hour out in the sun would often make a noticeable difference in my mood. Not jumping for joy or anything, but those weights around my ankles trying to drag me underwater would be a little lighter.
> 
> Most of all though--the biggest thing for me was finally letting go of my resentment. I'm a ruminator, which doesn't mix well with depression. The meds, the exercise etc helped, but I couldn't get over the hump until I stopped drinking my own poison.


This is awesome.

All of this stuff seems like a trick until you do things like this for a while and your perception of things starts to change. Then you start to wonder what's really real. If simple things like this can actually change your perception (and they can), then maybe your perception is not objective reality.

Here's another trick-- water.

Are you near a beach? If so, go there regularly. Once a week, just take a walk there. Better yet, swim.

For me, the ocean gives me a sense of infinity-- of something so huge I cannot really wrap my mind around it and something so powerful that I can't control. 

It helps me put things into perspective.

You can determine "tricks" like this for yourself too. Maybe there are others.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> I am the outcome every person complaining about the lack of sex but unwilling to establish boundaries should fear the most. Do everything you can to fix it. Right now. With urgency. But if it cannot be fixed. Get out before you lose yourself. Get out before it twists and mangles you into someone that doesn't want to get out and doesn't want to fix it and just rolls around in the filth of their self pity.


Do your kids know you think this way?

Would you like to be a positive part of their lives? Do you think you can do this when you treat yourself so badly?


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## Marduk

marduk said:


> Dude, if getting to a better place meant you had to let go of your delusions and what you thought your identity was, would you do it?
> 
> Or are you looking to dull the pain just enough to survive?
> 
> These are two different things.


Interesting that you didn't answer my question.

So I'm going to assume you're looking for option 2: make it bearable.


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## kristin2349

It sounds like you just want to marinate in this misery, so have at it. Like I said before it sounds like a miserable way to live life, but it is your life to waste as you wish. Good luck with all of that.


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## lifeistooshort

Hold, FWIW I am a CSA survivor. I never really had a satisfying sex life until I met my current husband; I certainly couldn't trust my arse of an ex enough to open up to him. He'd tell you I was frigid, but current husband would laugh at that. He thinks I'm a tiger.....but that's only because he's strong enough emotionally for me to really trust. Your wife probably needs the same thing, but with all of your self loathing you aren't able to give it to her. I can tell you that when my husband has foul moods it's really hard for me to hold it together because I rely on him emotionally so much, but I try to suck it up because I know he's entitled to his moods too and I can't expect him to prop me up all the time. Husband may or may not remember but I was fairly vanilla when we met, I've really opened up in the years I've known him so I didn't start out like this. In that sense I'm quite damaged, I just happened to luck out and find a partner who was a good fit for me this way.

I don't think I would've been able to really face my csa while still married to my ex. I'm not at all suggesting you're an arse like my ex, but your marital dynamic is toxic and might be preventing her from any meaningful change as her walls are always up. Maybe the same applies to you.

I don't know why she would've married you given her aversion to sex with you, but heck I married my ex so what do I know? I guess I wasn't completely averse to sex with him in the beginning, but as he began to reveal who he really was I started to shut down. Live and learn I guess.....I have a better grasp of some things now at 41 then I did at 25. Maybe she saw you as a safe provider, maybe she purposely married someone she wasn't into in order to have a reason to avoid sex. Quite possible really since she stopped it after the vows, so theoretically she shouldn't have had time to build up resentments yet.

I honestly don't know if your marriage is really salvageable give both of your attitudes, but I will say that the one who finally throws in the towel isn't necessarily the one who blew up the marriage nor will they necessarily be viewed that way. They could be viewed as the one who ripped the band-aid off and did what had to be done. My ex hated me as much as I hated him but would've stayed married to me and been a miserable pr!ck, I was the one to rip off the band-aid.. It took some years but he's much happier now without me.


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## Holdingontoit

Sorry, did not notice your post until now.


marduk said:


> Dude, if getting to a better place meant you had to let go of your delusions and what you thought your identity was, would you do it?


No.



> Or are you looking to dull the pain just enough to survive?


Bingo. We have a winner.



> These are two different things.


Agreed.



Anon1111 said:


> what drives you. anything? you seem like a smart guy. do you apply that to anything?


Nothing. I spend lots of time at work which heavily engages my intellect. Then I go home and veg out. I used to play lots of computer games. Now I watch tv. When the kids were around I went to watch their activities in the evening or drove them home from practice. Now that they are gone (or will be soon) I do some more business travel. Which generally means having meetings all day and then going back to my hotel room to catch up on email early in the morning and late at night. Or getting up early to take the train into the city and then taking the train back at night, which eats up 4 or 5 hours and means I basically leave before H2 gets up and by the time I get home she is in bed watching tv and surfing her ipad and besides a quick daily report about the kids she prefers I not bother her with interaction (sound, or movement, or pretty much any detectable sensation).

LITS: I agree with you. I am a bad choice for her. She thought I was safe because I did not press for sex as forcefully as other guys. She mistook soft for safe. She did not realize I was building a huge pile of resentment. By the time she realized, my weakness and the pile of resentment were more than enough to shut down whatever remaining sexual feelings she may have had toward me.

Fozzy: She initiates once every few months. In between there are snuggle sessions where she gives off signals that she might consent if I initiated, but I no longer explore the possibility.

Best as I can tell from what little sex we have had over 20+ years, she has both responsive desire and a desire to be dominated. But she will not indulge her desire, for the understandable reason that being a rape victim she is terrified of allowing anyone else to have control. As LITS said, H2 needs a strong man who can keep her safe so she can allow him to take the lead. I am not that man. I explained that to her before we got married. I told her I was inexperienced and tentative and that I was looking to "make up for lost time" during marriage. So she went into this fully warned and with her eyes wide open. She did not show me the same consideration. Which is why I have feel justified in not being as transparent as most marriage proponents would suggest I be. I am sure my resentment leaks out. She is not stupid. Far from it.

But as Rick said in Casablanca, she was willing to pretend, and I let her. I will let her pretend for as long as she can maintain the illusion.


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## Fozzy

What are you looking for out of life? You don't want help, and you don't want happiness. If it's just revenge, you picked an odd forum for it.


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## Noble1

Sorry to hear about how your life is going. I have to say that this post (which is great)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/12858793-post7.html


is totally different mindset than this thread.

Maybe there is some small chance that you are able to change things with your own relationship.


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## Holdingontoit

Fozzy, I came here to help others and to be an example of what not to do. Someone from another forum pointed me to a thread here and I decided to stay a while.

Just because I do not have the guts and energy and risk tolerance to take good advice does not mean I can't offer it.


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## Anon1111

What exactly would you be risking by acting on the advice you give others?


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## john117

H, thank you for the heads up. If there's one thing I am, it is to be stubborn and never give up. Even when I know it's not possible. 

I'm "different" than most people, or like to think I am. When I was 12-13 years old I realized that for every choice there are finite numbers of consequences. Like a decision tree. Like backgammon (spare me the randomness part ). The problem is, I would see the damned decision tree in my mind's eye - like in Minority Report. 

Meaning, I'm usually many moves ahead of most people I interact with because this is how my mind works. The fact I studied decision analysis in college was no coincidence :rofl:

As such, I'm not going to accept my fate. I never have. There's a way out of every mousetrap if you look hard enough. Maybe with a limb gone but out. 

The rest is just gravy.


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## In Absentia

You are where I was I would say 5 years ago... it's not a pleasant situation to be in... How I got out of it? How did I do it? I fought all the negativity. I was depressed too. I know you are not interested in change, but to me your utmost priority would be to find a treatment for your depression that really works. I know you've tried, but you need to keep trying... only then you will be able to "live" your life. If that means divorcing, so be it. You only live once...


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## ericthesane

Hold…
A note from a semi-frequent lurker and even more semi frequent poster on TAM. I was also a frequent visitor and read though many of your posts on the MB forums for a year or two back in the day, and I did in fact participate in one or two of your posts.

I have visited the MB forums on occasions during the last few years, but it seems to me that some of the veterans there seem to be so set in certain ways, and not particularly welcoming, that most new posters often feel thrashed and their questions not addressed, and the ‘case count’ seems to have decreased significantly.

Reading your post here in TAM, I see that there is nothing new for Hold under the sun, even after all these years. You post are filled with total resignation, and with the purpose of warning others to not follow your example. 

Fair enough. You have been given all manner of advice, suggestions and encouragement, and the occasional 2*4 over so many years. It is in the final analysis your own life, and your own decisions. 

I cannot but think that while many have said that alcohol is the cruelest of mistresses, your own views about yourself seems to be way up there as well.

Not that I cannot relate or see where you are coming from. I too live in a celibate marriage. (sexless is often defined as less than 10 times a year), and since it has been almost 3 years for me, well, the difference between sexless and celibate seems a bit fluid, I am not sure where one end and the other start. (Some argue that celibate as a term that should be applied if there is mutual consent, sexless if it is not.. I don’t really know) 

Anyway, I too, took a swing at MB, did what I could, applied the principles as best as I was able for a couple of years , but, as has often been mentioned, (and I am paraphrasing) a certain man that was pretty intelligent remarked that if you expect a different outcome when trying the same thing over and over again,.. you need to examine your head.

So, for the last two years, I have done my version of a 180.. Amongst others, I have taken up road biking and swimming with a vengeance. I really enjoy it, and the other results are also great. While I was never fat, I had a bit of extra padding that had been added over the years that I did not like. The satisfaction of putting on some very old jeans I had back in the closet that now fit, to be completely comfortable in a pair of swim trunks on the beach (I live in the SE of US and the beach is always there) having a defined ‘v-shape’ up front… priceless… spending what I used to spend on wife on a bit of a wardrobe update for myself. I have taken up playing music again, and while it is a purely amateur undertaking, being in a band, playing out… seeing people move, and dance and enjoying themselves to the music I am part of creating… deng.. it is great.

Being out and about and getting hit on… (not acted on… it is flirting, but am keeping it at a distance) , even better, and it does show that I am perceived as attractive… it has helped tremendously in terms of my self-image and overall enjoyment of life. My wife can stay with her romance novels and candy cane whatever games.

I noted your and observations about your working out. It was not as satisfying for you as it was for me, but, you already know that. I still hope that you, in your current misery, will find something that you enjoy doing that entails exercise. 

I will be around for a bit longer however. I still need to add quite a bit more to the kids college funds (D is 15, S is 12), but I am now in the process of a job change that will entail working for an outfit that means that I will get a small studio apartment, and quite a bit of travelling. I will work my a$$ off, and live carefully to add as much to their future education in terms of money, but it is going to be a transition for me, and divorce papers will be served some time after I have established myself in a new environment. Unlike many, I will not contest anything; she can have the house for all I care. 

Now, I do not think of my wife as evil, quite the contrary. She is an absolutely fantastic mother, a great chef and the house is always clean… (however, in MB speak, I have no/low need for Domestic Support, and I did not marry her to get a maid and a cook  she is hard working, careful with money, and very supportive of her friends.

So, she is into many things, however, she is not into ME… she needs me, but does not want me, she does not invite me to her bed. In some ways, it may be that me leaving will allow her to find a man that can either rekindle her passions, or, find a man that does not have much of, or no need, for physical intimacy, but can meet her other needs very well. I know very well, that most women DO want and crave that intimacy, that experience.. that bond that only exist amongst lovers, and I will find that kind of woman 

You have decided to stay, and by your own descriptions, you have disconnected from her, and in fact have invited her into your misery, almost as if you are out for vengeance. 

You are set in your ways. I have decided to make changes. I think I am better for it.

I will not ask you to reconsider: too many have, and you seem determined to stay where you are. I did want to touch base however, and to let you know that I have learned quite a bit from your postings over the years, and appreciated your stories.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: Harder to stay in an unhappy marriage if you feel you are valuable. If you feel you owe it to yourself to go out and try to find someone else. Then you blow up your life. And you fail to find anyone else. And you are worse off than before you started the journey of self-improvement.

Also, staying out of shape with high blood pressure has a cool side effect. Impotence. You see, now I can snuggle with H2 and she can stroke my cheek and my arms and my rib cage and there is absolutely no reaction "down there". We can spoon and I can put my crotch right up against her butt and she can wiggle it around and there is no reaction.

See, in the past if we spooned then I would get an erection. Which would give H2 the unspoken signal that she could still turn me on and I was still "hooked". And would lead to the immediate end of the spooning session, since she would pull away. Now we can spoon for as long as I want and there is no pesky erection to interfere with things. And, whereas in the past I was the one who felt rejected and undesirable, now she is the one questioning why she can no longer trigger a reaction in me. Win-win! So remind me why I should try to get back into shape and lower my blood pressure and regain the ability to have erections?

Now, if we divorced, and I wanted to try to have sex with someone else, then being impotent would be a hindrance. But since I have no intention of ever doing that, the downside is irrelevant.

IA: This is not a recent condition. As Eric notes, I am in the same place I was 13 years ago when I arrived at MB. I spent another 10 years trying to improve things. Nothing worked. Now I am done trying to make my marriage better. I am working a different plan.

Eric: Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to offer details of your journey. I am glad that my postings over the years were helpful to you.


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## MarriedTex

You are allowed to wallow, if you like. Just realize that your wallowing impacts the ones you profess to love the most - your kids.

Your kids want you to be happy, successful - to be a pillar of strength that they can lean upon when times get tough. If you are the best you can be, they know that you will always be there as an anchor that provides security and protection. That allows them to take more risks and get more out of their lives.

Don't tell me that you are that anchor right now. Individuals holding as much resentment as you have can not pull off that type of acting job. Your kids know when everything is not exactly right. That knowledge is a burden to them. 

If you love your kids, you owe it to them to do everything you can to make yourself better, stronger, happier. Yes, even taking the step of divorcing their mother may be a better outcome for your kids over time. When you take steps to improve yourself, you enhance the odds that they will find ways to be strong & happy, as well. No one wants a dad who has resigned himself to going through the motions. We want our parents to be beacons of hope and enablers of opportunity.

You can be this. Find one segment of life you can hang your hat on. Work on becoming a good photographer to take great pix of your future grandkids. Or practice the guitar so that you can become the cool grandpa singing folk songs on the porch for your kids and their spouses. Or take woodworking classes so that you can make furniture that fills up your kids' houses. You don't have to be 100% Alpha male. But you will benefit - and your kids will benefit - if you pick one thing that can engage your passions. You will lift your own spirits and make it possible for everyone around you to experience more happiness as well.


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## Anon1111

H- 

I think you could write a wicked book about your perspective. 

Go as deep as possible into your outlook and give the story of your marriage. 

You can wallow in it and simultaneously turn it into something creative. 

You are thoughtful and a good writer. 

I bet you would discover something if you did this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Good-Evil-Prelude-Philosophy/dp/0679724656
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Holdingontoit

MT: You are correct. I am not being the best me I can be. And that negatively impacts my kids. I am not stupid. I realize that. I guess I don't love them enough to do better. The nice part of being incredibly depressed all the time is that you can't feel much of anything. So even when my heart cries out in shame that I won't do what my kids want and need me to do, there isn't much pain.

The funny thing is, given how my entire life is ruled by my shame, I can't be shamed into making any changes. I am so used to feeling ashamed of myself that it is just one more log on the fire. It actually reinforced my current path. I say to myself "see, you are a worthless piece of crap, you deserve to be unhappy, you don't deserve anything good, so don't bother trying to make things better."

That is why I say I need serious help to address my mental health issues. Help that is expensive and intrusive and a huge time commitment. Far beyond what I am willing to invest in myself.

I have never had any hobbies. I have been skilled at anything practical. There has never been anything productive that engaged my passions. People ask "if you could do anything you want without financial worries, what would you spend your time doing?" My answer is "I have no idea." So when you say "take up woodworking or learn to play the guitar" it has zero resonance for me. My flower gardens are ugly. The projects I build are ugly. Functional. But ugly.

See, I need to conquer the depression before I can hope to have any success at a hobby or skill. And without hope for satisfaction, I have little motivation to do the enormous work of overcoming the depression. It is simply too overwhelming for me. Too much. even to bite off in baby steps. The baby steps are just a series of failures that confirm my worthlessness.

The little world I have carefully constructed around myself is very constraining but it is self-reinforcing and permits me to function. If I allow cracks in. Cracks of hope. Cracks of desire for something more. The whole edifice comes down. I am terrified I will have a complete mental collapse. Mental breakdown. My wife and kids are financially dependent on me. I already am far short of saving enough for retirement. I literally cannot afford to have a breakdown and lose my job and put my professional career at risk just to chase what seems to me to be a pipe dream. If that means I never achieve happiness or satisfaction, so be it.

Like I said, I know this is bad. But it could be worse. I am not willing to take any risk of things getting worse. I have done this for 22 years. I can keep doing it. And I intend to.


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## jld

Have you told all of this to your wife? Have you sat down and had a transparent talk with her, and your kids (where appropriate)?


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## Anon1111

active nihilism, dude.

your suffering is the only thing you are devoted to. So dive into that black hole and see what is at the bottom.

I think you will find there is no bottom

to feel that could be oddly exhilarating. remember, you love your suffering.


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## Holdingontoit

JLD: We spent 8 years in MC. I was completely honest with her. Made no difference. She denied and deflected. She called spending all our savings and running up huge credit card debt (done while we were in MC) "I lost track". She was a finance major in college and worked for accounting and management consulting firms. She didn't "lose track". She didn't care what it did to our finances. She didn't care what it did to me. Or maybe she did. The MC at the time of the discovery was stupefied that she could have done this and then tried to hide it and then lied about it.

I no longer believe I owe her honestly and transparency. I tried that and got punished for it.

Yes, I know it was my choice to stay. I wanted to be with my kids. I didn't want some other man to raise my kids. Or molest my D. I got what I aimed for when I chose to stay. Now my kids are off to college and I have no plans or hopes for the future. My goal for the past 10 years has been accomplished. I am left adrift.

I am in a very dark place. I wish I could say I am looking for a way out. But I am not.


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## jld

Holdingontoit said:


> JLD: We spent 8 years in MC. I was completely honest with her. Made no difference. She denied and deflected. She called spending all our savings and running up huge credit card debt (done while we were in MC) "I lost track". She was a finance major in college and worked for accounting and management consulting firms. She didn't "lose track". She didn't care what it did to our finances. She didn't care what it did to me. Or maybe she did. The MC at the time of the discovery was stupefied that she could have done this and then tried to hide it and then lied about it.
> 
> I no longer believe I owe her honestly and transparency. I tried that and got punished for it.
> 
> Yes, I know it was my choice to stay. I wanted to be with my kids. I didn't want some other man to raise my kids. Or molest my D. I got what I aimed for when I chose to stay. Now my kids are off to college and I have no plans or hopes for the future. My goal for the past 10 years has been accomplished. I am left adrift.
> 
> I am in a very dark place. I wish I could say I am looking for a way out. But I am not.


It sounds like she has demons of her own.

I would try again. I would be transparent. It is for you, Holding. You do it for yourself, so you can have peace. 

I do not think there is any true and complete happiness without transparency.


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## Holdingontoit

Jld: I agree with you. I don't think there is inner peace or happiness without honesty. But like I said, not aiming for inner peace or happiness. I am aiming for balance and stability. I am aiming to stay in my house. I am aiming to pay for D18's college ($55,000 per year). Those things cannot happen if we divorce.

If I am transparent, Mrs. Hold might choose to divorce me. I am willing to live without peace or happiness. She might not be. I cannot afford to take that risk.

Yes, that means I am being selfish. Yes, that means she is making decisions based on less than full information. She did that to me for years and years. I can live with doing it back to her. I actually enjoy doing it back to her. Please do not ask me to give up that tiny bit of pleasure. Other than hugging my kids, it is pretty much the only pleasure I have left in life. I will not let it go.


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## jld

That little bit is actually hurting you, hon. I know you don't want to let it go, but I think you need to.


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## Anon1111

The Emperor: You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your Jedi weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger. With each passing moment you make yourself more my servant. 

Luke: No. 

The Emperor: It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: As I said before, not all of us are heroes. I am not Luke. I am Anakin. I am wholly given to the dark side.

H2 got a bad health report. She will need a biopsy and may need surgery. I will be there for her. I will say all the right things. I will hold her hand. Care for her. Change her bandages. Bring her meds and ice chips and tea. Make sure she gets the best medical care. Be waiting for her in the recovery room. Take care of the kids' details that she handles when she is well. I will make it a point to do whatever I am supposed to do. But not for her. For me. To make sure that she stays with us. Because despite it all, I would be lost without her. Heck, I am lost and she is here.


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## jld

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: As I said before, not all of us are heroes. I am not Luke. I am Anakin. I am wholly given to the dark side.
> 
> H2 got a bad health report. She will need a biopsy and may need surgery. I will be there for her. I will say all the right things. I will hold her hand. Care for her. Change her bandages. Bring her meds and ice chips and tea. Make sure she gets the best medical care. Be waiting for her in the recovery room. Take care of the kids' details that she handles when she is well. I will make it a point to do whatever I am supposed to do. But not for her. For me. To make sure that she stays with us. Because despite it all, I would be lost without her. Heck, I am lost and she is here.


That doesn't sound like someone lost to the dark side.


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## Anon1111

Yeah, H. Even Luke was tempted by the Dark Side. You are tempted but not gone.


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## WandaJ

Holdingontoit said:


> Appreciate all the replies.
> 
> Anon: I tried exercise. I ran a half marathon. I did a cycle of P90X. I was in good shape. Did not improve my mood. Well, actually, the half marathon worsened my mood. After 6 months of training I came in pretty much last of all the participants, including the walkers and the people over age 70. I didn't enjoy the training (and I was part of a charity-based group that provided training materials, met weekly to do long runs, and provided moral support). And the race itself was humiliating. I did not feel any sense of satisfaction from finishing. I felt embarrassed that it took me so long they were tearing down the last few water stations before I got to them.
> 
> As for TMS, I looked into that. They opened a center near me. Costs $12,000. Not happening. Then they would not take me for regular therapy because I don't have records of all my previous therapists, the meds I took, etc.
> 
> As for talking to my kids about mate selection, I have done this and expect to continue to do it. H2 will not be pleased with some of the things I have to share. So timing is delicate. And no, the kids do not need to know all our problems. Or details. But there is a component to sexual mismatch that needs to be placed onto the table, which understandably makes H2 very nervous.
> 
> As for finding someone else, well, I am sure you guys (and gals) are correct that there are other women with whom I would enjoy spending time. Or even being married. Where we part company is believing that any of them would desire to spend any time with me. You will never convince me that is possible. Which is a pretty darn self-fulfilling prophesy. And one I am determined never to test empirically. As several people said to john117, my bitterness and resentment will shine through and no decent woman would give me the time of day. So if I am not going to learn to drop the bitterness and be happy, no point in divorcing her to seek someone else.
> 
> Like I said before, I don't expect to ever accept this. I know I am being a moron. Still, I don't expect to change, either. I get too much payoff from making a game of seeing if I can get my wife to stay married to me despite my depression. I figure since she baited and switched me, she can't complain if I sink some hooks into her in return. I know being this way is destroying my soul, but when you have spent pretty much every waking moment since toddler-hood unhappy, can't say my soul ever did me much good.


Maybe marathon or PX90are too much? if you are not an athlete type, these could be discouraging after a while. Like dieting, you cannot keep it up forever. Just try something more casual: walking few times a week, biking, swimming. Twnenty minutes not an hour. If you feel like an hour go for it, but always allow yourself to do just twenty minutes., if you don't feel like more.Better than nothing. 

TMS is relatively new, and in most cases isnurance does not want to cover, unless you have cadillac plan. But did you try CTE treatmetns? They have been around much longer, are cheaper, and most insurance plans cover them with such documented trail of trying all meds without results. 

Divorce brings up a hope of someone out there waiting for you. But there is no guarantee. When you divorce you should be ready to be on your own, and be fine with it. Just because you were unhappy while single when young man, does not mean you won't find it appealing now. You will be free whatever you want to, and you never know what you can discover.


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## Hopeful Cynic

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: As I said before, not all of us are heroes. I am not Luke. I am Anakin. I am wholly given to the dark side.
> 
> H2 got a bad health report. She will need a biopsy and may need surgery. I will be there for her. I will say all the right things. I will hold her hand. Care for her. Change her bandages. Bring her meds and ice chips and tea. Make sure she gets the best medical care. Be waiting for her in the recovery room. Take care of the kids' details that she handles when she is well. I will make it a point to do whatever I am supposed to do. But not for her. For me. To make sure that she stays with us. Because despite it all, I would be lost without her. Heck, I am lost and she is here.


What will you do if your wife doesn't make it?

It sounds like your major driving passion in life is to punish her for how you feel she treated you.

You hate your life with her, and you now say you would hate life without her.

Forget counselling to address depression. But maybe counselling to help you find other things to focus on that aren't quite so destructive could be a first step.


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## Holdingontoit

Wanda: I can't get ECT because I do not have any records of my prior treatment. Treatment with meds was from 1994 to 2011 (prior to that from 1978 to 1992 was talk only). We have moved twice. Work has changed insurers a couple of times. The last couple of psychiatrists were older and I believe both have retired. That was the problem with TMS provider, they wouldn't let me do anything without records of my prior treatment and I don't have and can't get any. So I have to start over to build a record of what doesn't work. Very discouraging.

As for making a happy life post-divorce, not bloody likely. When H2 goes away with the kids, I do not take advantage of the time to make plans to do things I enjoy. I sit home alone and play computer games and watch tv. I once worked outside the US for 2 weeks. Lived in a corporate apartment. Could have taken a taxi or train to many interesting sites and explored. I spent the weekend in the room alone playing computer games. I am confident if I divorced H2 and was paying her alimony I would have no social life at all. At least while married I have someone to go to dinner with on Saturday night. This past Saturday we went out for pizza and went to the supermarket. Not much excitement but it sure beats staying home and playing computer games.


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## badmemory

Holding,

Are you a heavy drinker? I assume not or you would have mentioned it. But if you are, that's a different ballgame. Sustained alcohol abuse can cause what AA calls "stinkin thinkin"; that can include depression, isolationism, resignation and lack of energy/enthusiasm for anything.

If you are not an alcoholic, yet not willing to invest the energy to improve yourself or to put divorce on the table; then I suggest your only choice is to make due - and find the best marital needs balance between sex, love, companionship, and affection. Given that sex is off the radar, perhaps the other areas can compensate; at least to a point where your marriage is tolerable for the long run. Actually, it seems that you are already doing this to some extent.


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## jorgegene

Holdingontoit said:


> JLD: We spent 8 years in MC. I was completely honest with her. Made no difference. She denied and deflected. She called spending all our savings and running up huge credit card debt (done while we were in MC) "I lost track". She was a finance major in college and worked for accounting and management consulting firms. She didn't "lose track". She didn't care what it did to our finances. She didn't care what it did to me. Or maybe she did. The MC at the time of the discovery was stupefied that she could have done this and then tried to hide it and then lied about it.
> 
> I no longer believe I owe her honestly and transparency. I tried that and got punished for it.
> 
> Yes, I know it was my choice to stay. I wanted to be with my kids. I didn't want some other man to raise my kids. Or molest my D. I got what I aimed for when I chose to stay. Now my kids are off to college and I have no plans or hopes for the future. My goal for the past 10 years has been accomplished. I am left adrift.
> 
> *I am in a very dark place. I wish I could say I am looking for a way out. But I am not.*


*
*


so in that dark corner that you have found yourself in, you have curled up in a position that offers just enough comfort and relief to get up every morning and continue functioning. even in darkness, sometimes one can find just enough light to keep moving on.


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## Holdingontoit

Bad medical news continues. Not benign. H2 needs surgery and chemo and maybe radiation. Will be a tough year going forward physically, emotionally and financially.

Sex is no longer on our "to do" list of issues to work through (not that it has been for years, but now it is totally foreclosed). We have enough on our plate to figure out how we get H2 healthy and how we pay for whatever she needs.

I will hold her hand the entire way. Feeds my martyr complex.


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## john117

Shows you're a good person. At the end of the day that matters.


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## soccermom2three

I'm so sorry to hear about your wife.


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## Holdingontoit

More tests today. Meeting with oncologist tomorrow.

H2 was melancholy over the weekend. She said I (not she) do not deserve this. That I am a good person who deserves a fully functional wife. I said no ones deserves this. She said I would save lots of money if she did not survive the treatments. I told her to shush and that she is priceless.

Our employer is switching insurance providers on July 1 so we will have the joy of 2 insurance companies fighting over who pays for treatment, which payments count against which annual limits, etc. Much fun to look forward to.


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## jb02157

Anon Pink said:


> I bet you think you're being a realist as you list your failures and dismal outlook on life and your potential happiness.
> 
> Do you really believe that the past 20 years have been nothing but failure?
> You've been able to keep a roof over your family's head.
> Food on the table.
> Family vacations.
> Paid for cars and their upkeep.
> Clothing on everyone's back.
> Both kids in college, not drinking, not drugging and not procreating. Probably safe to assume their not breaking laws...
> Your kids are well adjusted, have friends, have significant relationships, demonstrate care and concern for others.
> 
> You had nothing to do with any of those accomplishments and successes?
> 
> Depression is both a mood and a method of thinking. If you can force yourself to think more positively, you elevate your mood, which makes thinking more positively a bit easier, which elevates your mood a bit more, which makes thinking positively even easier, which further elevates your mood.
> 
> So go back and look at that list again...what can you add to it that Internet strangers might not be aware of?
> 
> It doesn't matter whether you stay with your wife or not. Once you tackle your depression, anything is possible.


This is a really good post. I wish that more people thought like this


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## Holdingontoit

Got some test results back yesterday. The good news is that her tumors react to estrogen and progesterone but do not respond to the HER2+ receptor. Both of those are good results, so the tumors are of the less aggressive variety and stopping her birth control pills should slow their growth.

The bad news is that they lymph nodes in the "other" breast (the one with fewer lumps) are suspicious, so they need to biopsy those. Looking more and more like double mastectomy, but also a good prognosis for recovery. More testing next week then meeting with plastic surgeon to discuss reconstruction. She does such a great job on weight watchers that she may not have enough belly fat to rebuild to her current size. Query whether she goes smaller, takes fat from her butt, does implants, etc.

I am trying very hard not to comment on new boobs and keep telling her I love her in any size or shape. What she gets will be entirely up to her. She seems to believe I am sincere. Maybe because I was always chasing her even when she was 60+ pounds heavier? On the phone today she told her Mom I have been very supportive. She even stroked my cheek when she said it. If she touched me in an affectionate manner, it must have been very meaningful to her.


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## MEM2020

Holding,

You've been rock solid in what was potentially an end of life scenario. That's a big deal. 




Holdingontoit said:


> Got some test results back yesterday. The good news is that her tumors react to estrogen and progesterone but do not respond to the HER2+ receptor. Both of those are good results, so the tumors are of the less aggressive variety and stopping her birth control pills should slow their growth.
> 
> The bad news is that they lymph nodes in the "other" breast (the one with fewer lumps) are suspicious, so they need to biopsy those. Looking more and more like double mastectomy, but also a good prognosis for recovery. More testing next week then meeting with plastic surgeon to discuss reconstruction. She does such a great job on weight watchers that she may not have enough belly fat to rebuild to her current size. Query whether she goes smaller, takes fat from her butt, does implants, etc.
> 
> I am trying very hard not to comment on new boobs and keep telling her I love her in any size or shape. What she gets will be entirely up to her. She seems to believe I am sincere. Maybe because I was always chasing her even when she was 60+ pounds heavier? On the phone today she told her Mom I have been very supportive. She even stroked my cheek when she said it. If she touched me in an affectionate manner, it must have been very meaningful to her.


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## Holdingontoit

This morning she went on and on about how she feels badly that she is doing this to me. She hugged me a few times. I told her thank you. That I appreciate her concern.

She then complained that I was not sufficiently appreciative of her apology. That it seemed like her apology was no big deal to me. I am confused how I should respond.

The truth is that all of this is not such a big deal to me. I have turned off my feelings to deal with our marriage. Lousy way to go through life. But good when you have to deal with bad news. I expect my life to be unhappy. I expect bad things to happen. This is just one more on the list.

She is very worried about losing her breasts. Understandable. Not such a big deal to me. I fell for her in part because of her magnificent breasts. Now I regret having fallen for her. So losing her breasts would just serve me right for being shallow and foolish.

It is not as if her breasts are relevant to our behavior these days. Yes, I find her breasts attractive. But since we don't have sex, finding her attractive is a minus to me. If I find her less attractive going forward, so much the better. Easier to cope with the sexlessness. And I doubt I will find her less attractive. I was hot for her fat. I will likely be hot for her flat chested.

It is not as if loss of sensation in her breasts would matter. Like I said, we don't have sex. So it is not as if currently she gets very aroused when I play with her breasts and we won't have that as a source of arousal in the future. Nothing arouses her. At least not with me.

It is not as if her breasts are a source of arousal for me. Without Viagra I am limp as overcooked spaghetti. With Viagra I can do the deed breasts or no breasts. Again, no difference.

Yes, it will be inconvenient. Yes, it will cost money and I will have to interrupt my schedule to care for her. So what? This is what I signed up for. Richer or poorer. In health or in sickness. Her being sick just feeds my martyr syndrome. I don't really mind it at all.

Maybe I am fooling myself. Maybe it hasn't been real yet. So far she has gone to the visits for testing alone. So for me it has just been phone calls and talking to her. Maybe when I go to the doctor with her it will become more real and I will get upset. We shall see.


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## MarriedTex

What specifically did she apologize for?

One interpretation from a far distance is that she sees you being supportive husband in very troubling time. She KNOWS that she hasn't treated you the best over the course of your relationship. The scales are tipped so far in one direction, that even she can see the inequity of it all. 

She sees apology as clear-the-air attempt at a giant rug sweep. "You know all those years I ignored your needs. Yeah, those. Well, my bad."

Your milquetoast response to her apology is not sufficient to fully assuage her guilt over past treatment. If you make a big deal about apology, it translates into being something sincere and meaningful - a watershed. I suspect you would see it as something less - something more akin to rug-sweeping years of mistreatment.

No good answer here. But if she continues to push on apology front, I would counter by saying that you're less worried over apologies over the past and more focused on your relationship for the future. You wife can and will beat this, and when she does you want the foundation in place for a good relationship moving forward. For the apology to have meaning to you, it has to be tied to commitment to action moving forward. For you, that means that you expect X, Y and Z from your loving wife. You pick the X, Y and Z that are meaningful to you.

Or you can continue to marinate in your resentment and excel in beating everybody else at the martyrdom game. You can't change the past. But if you don't take actions to shape the future, the only one you can blame is yourself.


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## Holdingontoit

MT: Thanks. You are spot on.

Still. I am unwilling to demand my wife do x,y,z. For 3 reasons. First, I am not willing to put in the time and effort that would be required for me to be in a position to participate in x,y,z. Second, I am not willing to reciprocate and provide her with the u, v and w she would ask for in return. Third, I am not willing to leave her if she refuses to provide x,y, and z.

I realize all of these things are on me, not on her. I am not willing to shape my future. That is my fault.


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## Tron

H,

Could you please refresh my memory?

Weren't you the poster with "The Plan"? A plan unlike MMSLP that you created yourself that was going to lead to great and wonderful marriage/sex life? With your own separate blog where you provided updates etc., AND where self imposed deadlines came and went without resolution and you simply pushed the deadlines out to a newer and later date?


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## Holdingontoit

Tron: Nope, not me.

Got more test results back. She does not have the BRCA genetic mutations that increase risk of cancer. So we can focus on her breast cancer and not be so worried about precautionary hysterectomy. Good news for her, D18 and descendants. One less long term worry so we can concentrate on the problem at hand.

H2 is worried that she does not have enough belly fat to reconstruct the same size she currently has. She fears becoming pear shaped. I told her any shape is a good shape as long as it is upright and above ground.


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## Tron

Glad you got some good news.

Perhaps showing her how supportive you are during this difficult time will flip a switch inside her and create some much needed change.


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## Holdingontoit

Nah, she has known since 1997. We spent 8 years hashing it out and got nowhere. She thinks I am a great guy but she is not hot for me. Tragic we got married and stayed married. 20+ years and 2 kids later we are in it for the long haul. But hot sex is never going to be part of the equation.


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## Holdingontoit

Had a very pleasant anniversary. No snuggling or sex but much affection from her. She says she is happy to be married to me. I am getting what I signed up for by staying with her. No sex but pleasant time together and intact family for our kids. Could be much worse. Many anniversaries were.


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## Holdingontoit

More tests today. More tests next Friday. Surgery should be in about 3 weeks. H2 getting anxious. Understandable. I told her not to be ashamed. We are all nervous but we will keep her sheltered in a cocoon of love.


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## Holdingontoit

P: My needs and feelings are irrelevant. They have been for 23 years. I want to stay married to my wife "no matter what". She feels loved. That is all that matters.


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## Holdingontoit

I am being quite serious. My feelings simply do not matter. I have long since given up any hope of being happy. The price I would have to pay is too high. The effort I would have to make is beyond what I am willing to expend. Knowing that I am unwilling to pursue happiness, I have ceased to make efforts to produce happiness or reduce unhappiness. I simply plod along.

My wife is sick. I support her. I hope she recovers. If she does, we get bionic boobs that I can appreciate from afar (it is not as if she is actually going to let me TOUCH them). If, God forbid, she doesn't, then I will be devastated. But having already been devastated by the reality that I will never have the sex life I wanted or the financial security I wanted or the marriage I wanted, another major blow to my hopes and dreams seems kinda "same old, same old". Of course I am not getting what I wanted. Story of my life. 

How am I holding up is so besides the point. All that matters is my wife. She has made that clear for 23 years and counting. If I disagreed I should have divorced her years ago. I decided to stay, I am reaping what I have sowed. My kids have an intact family. I hope and pray that continues. If we get that, then I have accomplished my goals regardless of the fallout on me.


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## Holdingontoit

Personal: not saying I don't have feelings, just saying I have no intention to enacting behaviors that are designed to lead to happier feelings. I understand my feelings and my reaction to them are not the most productive / helpful. A rational person might work to change that. No one has accused me of being rational in a very long time.

Wife had biopsy Friday. We should get the results on Wednesday or Thursday. Then CTA scan on Friday looking for the best artery to transplant to her chest. Surgery should be in 2 or 3 weeks. Going from a few weeks as empty nesters to a few weeks of having both kids and MIL in the house. I like a full house but this is not a good reason for having one.


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## Holdingontoit

Biopsy results are not good. Scan today involves contrast solution to which she is allergic. They gave her meds to tamp down her allergic response. Hopefully the scans will resolve that her chest lymph nodes are not cancerous. Otherwise her prognosis is much worse.

Also, the surgeons are not both available until August 30. August 30? That is 6 weeks of waiting! So we might have to switch surgeons. But won't anyone good also be busy? We don't want to switch to lousy doctors just to do the surgery in 3 weeks rather than 6. Very tough decision.

I am trying to be supportive. I keep telling her I love her in any shape, form or condition. She does not enjoy physical touch so I have to restrain my urge to hug her. She pulls or pushes away. So I leave my hand where she can reach for it in bed if she wants to. I feel very lonely. So does she. But we do not know how to reach out to one another in a way that helps (duh).


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## Holdingontoit

Good news. We got a date for surgery in July. Time to cut this out and move on.


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## Holdingontoit

Meeting with cancer surgeon today. Meeting with reconstruction surgeon Monday. Getting very real. H2 getting really nervous. Understandable. She pulls away when she gets stressed. Trying hard not to take it personally and just be there for her by doing tasks and leaving her alone.


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## Anon1111

Hey man- you are a good guy.

If you were a bad guy, you could rip H2's heart out right about now.

I wonder if part of her knows she doesn't deserve what you're giving her right now.

After the surgery and some time for recovery, I wonder if it would be productive for you to open up a dialogue on this.

She can't be thinking of life the same way after something like this.


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## always_alone

Holdingontoit said:


> I Of course I am not getting what I wanted. Story of my life.


Happiness is not about getting what you want. As Personal pointed out, most of us don't get what we want. Indeed, those that do get everything they want are often the unhappiest of us all.

Happiness is also not something that you work for or achieve. There is a stupid saying about how happiness is like a puppy's tail. A platitude, no doubt, but there is truth to it: the more you chase it, the more elusive it is. But if you forget about it, it comes along behind you.

These are hard times for you, and it sounds like you have had a hard life. But you also seem to have decided both to give up on ever getting what you want, yet remain determined to be miserable about that fact. Why is that?


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## Holdingontoit

AA: I have actually pretty much always had a blessed and easy life. I am simply determined to be miserable. I have squandered the blessings the Lord heaped on me by being fearful and lazy. At this point I feel I deserve to be miserable, on account of giving in to my fears and laziness. I do my best to bring that state about by my internal thoughts and imagination. I focus on the negative at all costs. Do not fret about me. I have been miserable for 50 years and shall likely be miserable to the end of my days. I am used to it and it seems to suit me.

Pray for my wife. Pray that my children get many more years with their mother. That is enough for me.


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## john117

One person's fear is another person's deep understanding of outcomes and chances. And one person's laziness is another person's work/life balance.

Nothing wrong with such choices, much as society tries to shame us out of them.


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## Holdingontoit

John: Thanks but I am not buying. My laziness is watching tv or playing video games instead of hitting the gym and having the body and stamina my wife might find more desirable. It is watching tv instead of going though the "honey do" list and efficiently accomplishing tasks. My wife is an Acts of Service kinda girl and I have stopped acting. I am not docking myself for coming home from work so I can play with my kids. I am docking myself for not making myself into the best me I can be. For settling for less than my best. As a passive-aggressive response to H2 not providing for my needs. Instead of maximizing my value and then taking the new, better me on the road to find a worthy partner if H2 did not respond favorably.

We had a very nice weekend together. I am still not feeling grateful. That is between my ears.


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## john117

Best one can be? For whom? I am a firm believer in Pareto's Law, and I'm not interested in 80% work for 20% gain. Or, like it is in relationships like ours, 95% work for 5% gain.

I accept my partner with her flaws and expect the same of her. If she's going to hold me up to Olympic athlete fitness standard, Trump earning potential, and H1B worker devotion, then we have a big problem somewhere.


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## Holdingontoit

John: I am not the best "me" by my standards. I am not happy with myself. One of the reasons I stayed with H2 during the worst of times was because I could not imagine there exists any woman who would desire me.

If you are well pleased with yourself, bully for you. Seriously. Well done and no snark intended.

But I am not. And I am unwilling to put in the effort to transform into the person that I would be proud to become. I am not even trying to make progress in that direction. And for that failure I judge myself and find myself wanting and execute sentence in full measure of harshness. Which is only what I feel I deserve.

Which is all fluff and nonsense. All that matters right now is tomorrow's surgery and H2 surviving. My kids need their mother. And I am terrified at the prospect of being alone. So prayers and warm thoughts requested on H2's behalf.


----------



## john117

Best wishes - we had a biopsy scare in 1994 and it was not pretty. You're going thru the real thing. But you'll find a way to be strong for your family. 

When this is all done both of you need a fresh start. For healing and recovery first, and for relationship afterwards. But first things first.

Best wishes for a great outcome!


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## brownmale

I feel your hurt. To invest a life in a marriage and be deprived of sex, needing to pay one's way out, and just live in hope (where little exists) is a tough, tough, tough job.

Keep on hanging on. Do what makes you happy. I don't think your life is as dysmal (though sometimes years of rejection and the deprivation of sex can make a male feel that way). 

The only advantage of being in a marriage of this kind is that it sometimes makes you more creative. (When I've had great sex, it made me too much inward looking, partner-focussed and hardly creative.)



Holdingontoit said:


> Several posters have called me out in John117's thread. To avoid threadjacking, I am creating this thread and will refrain from commenting on my situation on John's thread.
> 
> For the record, I am not looking to resolve my personal or marital problems. I have invested almost 20,000 posts on various marriage forums over the past 13+ years. I have tried everything I am interested in trying. At this point have given up hope of making major changes and am pursuing a different path and a different payoff.
> 
> This thread is intended to provide the backstory to those of you who do not know me form other forums so you will understand my background and perspective when I post on other threads.
> 
> Married 23 years next month. 2 kids - S20 and D18. Classic victim of bait and switch. Sex stopped literally the day we got married. No sex wedding night. Sex at first honeymoon hotel after which H2 announces "now it is consummated and you cannot get it annulled". No further sex during honeymoon (got turned down every night "too tired" etc) except last night when I had to beg. Should have filed for annulment upon airplane touching down back in USA. But I was foolish and believed in vows, better or worse, marriage involves work, etc. Stupid me.
> 
> Five years later we have 2 kids and go away for week's vacation. As with honeymoon, sex only 1 time and numerous turndowns. Including the night of our anniversary, after taking her to dinner in the same restaurant where I proposed, watching fireworks, then staying in fancy hotel. Upon return home, I insist on MC to address sexless marriage.
> 
> We spent 8 years in MC with various MCs and sex therapists. Not once did H2 do any of the "homework" assignments. Not once did H2 live up to agreements we made. Went on vacation several times during this period. No sex. One of the MCs even said to her "your H works hard to support you as a SAHM, I know you work hard caring for the kids but next week you are going to be away from home at a hotel along with your H with no responsibilities, don't you think that maybe you could have some sex with him on vacation?" You guessed it, no sex on vacation either.
> 
> 2 years into MC H2 admitted she had been raped multiple times. She maintains that the rapes have no impact on her sexuality and gets violently angry if I suggest perhaps they do. Shortly after disclosing the rapes, H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit card debt. That was a decade ago and we are still not recovered from the financial devastation.
> 
> Ten years ago our last MC "fired" us saying "if you are not going to make any changes, then you are wasting your time and mine talking to me. I can't keep stealing your money."
> 
> D18 leaves for college in the fall. Many would say now is the time to divorce. I have no interest in doing so.
> 
> I was unhappy as a single person before marriage. Not very successful with females. Hence my susceptibility to H2's allure. And my skepticism as to whether a happy life would await me after divorce. I was unhappy when I was young and had much potential workwise (professionally, I have not lived up to my academic accomplishments) and could offer the prospect of raising children together. I cannot envision being anything but unhappy now that I am older and relatively unsuccessful and no longer have "I will be a great dad to your kids" as a selling point. I never had friends. I never did much but come home to my apartment and watch tv / play computer games. No point in divorcing for that, I can do that while married to H2.
> 
> The bottom line is that I am clinically depressed if not a full blown personality disorder. The work needed to overcome that is more than I am willing to invest. Then there is the impotence, much of which is caused by my lack of exercise and my unhealthy diet. I have been in therapy and took A-D meds on and off since age 17. Never made any difference in my mood or outlook. I did exercise for a time. Ran a half marathon. Dismal results and hated every minute of training. I did a course of P90X. Got in good shape. Did not feel any better and made no difference to H2.
> 
> To get to "happiness" I would need to invest time and money (which, with 2 kids in college, I have none of) to work on myself physically and mentally. Major therapy. Maybe ECT. Change diet. Exercise more. All in the hope that it might make a difference and that I could become someone I have never been. Non-depressed.
> 
> I have been depressed as long as I can remember. Back to nursery school. The concept that if I worked hard enough and invested enough effort I could overcome the depression seems impossible to me.
> 
> What I know is that divorce blows up my world. Kids take a hit. I take a huge financial hit (in my state 20+ year marriages lead to permanent alimony). I can't afford to retire ever as it is. How will I make ends meet on half of "not enough"? You are going to try to convince me I will meet some wonderful woman who is financially comfortable and wants to take me on as a reclamation project? Really? So what is "for sure" is that there are huge practical and financial and emotional downsides. All in the hope of a better future? It doesn't even come close to balancing.
> 
> Of course, it would balance if you assigned a large negative value to living unhappy and depressed. I do not. This is how I have lived my whole life. I don't know anything else. So to me, this is not negative. This is baseline. This is how life is.
> 
> You might feel compelled to entice me with fantasy stories about how I can learn to be happy. H2 enticed me with those same stories. Look how that turned out. I am not gong to be fooled twice.


----------



## brownmale

Holdingontoit said:


> (I get so ashamed of my impotence that I refuse to have sex). .


You shouldn't! This is happens at our age.

What works for me is (i) trying out something new, some new position, or a position that makes me feel more dominant -- like doggie (ii) going in for some other form of sex which she enjoys... a sensual massage or even masturbating her to climax. (This is often enough to arouse me!)


----------



## brownmale

This may sound unscientific, but I believe that sometimes depression can be linked to a lack of sex.



Holdingontoit said:


> Can I accept it? No.
> 
> I don't see any disconnect. All my choices are sub-optimal given my treatment resistant depression. The fact that I chose one doesn't mean I am pleased with it. I am a seething ball of resentment because I hate that I am too lazy and negative to even try to create new alternatives. To some, that would suggest that I should do the work and try to create additional options. To me, it just reinforces my determination to punish myself for being weak.
> 
> What did you expect? Don't you think most suicide bombers are seething balls of resentment when they strap on the explosive vest?
> 
> Some people when facing the Kobayashi Maru scenario find acceptance. Some go down fighting. Some try to cheat death and reprogram the simulator. And some of us overload the engines and blow ourselves up, hoping to take down the enemy with us. Kahn triggered the Genesis device. Not all of us are cut out to be heroes.


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## jb02157

Your story sounds alot like mine. I know bait and switch all to well. Let me offer a diagnosis here. I think what went wrong for you is that your wife was a SAHM. That killed alot of things for me, most notably the way I thought about myself and my marriage. Taking on all the financial burden was too much. My plan for the future is different from your's, I plan to leave after my youngest is out of college.


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## brownmale

I don't believe women indulge in bait-and-switch on purpose. The name would suggest it is something deliberate.

They can't help doing it. Nature (or the superior beings from another planet that created us)made it that way.



jb02157 said:


> Your story sounds alot like mine. I know bait and switch all to well. Let me offer a diagnosis here. I think what went wrong for you is that your wife was a SAHM. That killed alot of things for me, most notably the way I thought about myself and my marriage. Taking on all the financial burden was too much. My plan for the future is different from your's, I plan to leave after my youngest is out of college.


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## Holdingontoit

Surgery went well. Initial test show no spread to lymph nodes, which is good. We won't know more definitively for a few weeks. As I suspected, H2 and doctors were wrong about how much fat she had in her belly. As I predicted, it was all skin from her major weight loss and little fat to transplant. Surprisingly, I do not much care that she has gone from a D to an A cup. Even though I am a major boob man. Now that we rarely have sex, what difference does it make? The less she turns me on, the less difficult it is to go without sex. We shall see how both of us feel a few months from now.

Right now all that matters is that she heals and they got rid of all the cancer. Hopefully they will discharge her from the hospital tomorrow. Kids are home for 2 weeks until they leave for college. Her Mom and my parents are here so we have plenty of hands to help with what should be the worst of it (the first week she is home). Once she can walk easier and the drains are out of her belly, then we can see what kind of follow up treatment is required.

Many thanks to all who wish her well. We are thinking of making a charitable donation in honor of all who expressed warm thoughts toward us.


----------



## Holdingontoit

H2 is home from the hospital and recovering despite a high level of discomfort. But 26" of incisions will do that to you! We will get more word on the cancer in a couple of weeks.


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## Holdingontoit

H2 is having second thoughts about the reconstruction procedure she selected. Plastic surgeon told her he could make C cups from her belly fat. I warned that her belly was mostly skin and I doubted there was much fat there. But he is surgeon and I am husband so my concerns are dismissed. Turns out I was right, they were surprised how little fat she had, and she would up with A cups. Now she has a 14" incision in her belly and is unhappy with her boobs. Nothing they could have done differently once they cut her open and fund no fat in her belly. But I wish they had taken my concern more seriously and thoroughly explored how much fat was under the skin in her belly. Now she is considering a second procedure to take fat from her butt to plump up her boobs. Good news is that there is definitely enough fat in her butt to make a very full set of boobs. Bad news is another surgery to get there. Darn.

But in the big picture, she is alive. They cut out the cancer. We will find out on the 17th what chemo she needs. But early findings suggest her 5 year survival prognosis is good. I don't care what boobs she has (or doesn't) because we don't have sex and frankly her being less physically attractive to me just makes enduring that easier. And she has a beautiful face that I love staring at. But it is her body and her choice what procedures to have or not have. I am just here to hold her hand (and give her meds, empty her drainage tubes, put antibiotic on her incisions, walk her to the potty, etc - but that is what married people do and she would do for me). We shall see what she decides. At least she survived the surgery to be able to make more choices.


----------



## Sure that could work

I am glad too that she is still here and can make whatever decisions that need made.

It would appear that you can dig out of the abyss of hopelessness to see the good in her surviving the surgery. I am glad you are able to be there for her in this emotional period of time.

Thank you for updating. I hope the good news keeps coming.


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## Holdingontoit

STCW: The good is that my kids get to keep their Mom and I get to keep being a martyr. And I get to keep blaming her for all my problems instead of taking responsibility for them myself. Not sure that is "good". But it is better to have her around in the hope that some day I get my head out of my rear end.


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## Holdingontoit

Drains out. Was like watching magician do a trick. 2 feet of tubing comes out of H2's torso. Again and again and again. And when the tube pops out - no bleeding. Just a hole into her body that sits there. Tape a piece of gauze over it to keep the dirt out and we're done. Modern medicine is amazing. H2 is pleased not to have rubber tubes and plastic squeeze bulbs hanging off her body.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Argh. 1 of the 11 lymph nodes had cancer cells. So now H2 needs radiation and maybe chemo in addition to tamoxifen. 6 weeks of daily radiation. H2 was so hoping the nodes were clear and once she healed from the incisions she would be "done" since tamoxifen generally not so bad on side effects. Now she sees it will be an ongoing process. But could have been a lot worse. 6 tumors and not much spread means we caught it "just in time".

Puts the absence of sex in perspective. On the other hand, doing without sex because H2 has cancer feels very different than doing without sex because she continually says "no". Guess I should just think of H2 as having libido cancer and call it a day.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Both kids off at college. H2 and me are empty nesters. H2 starts chemo in a few weeks. 6 months of discomfort. She has been very pleasant and appreciative lately. Funny, I wish she was healthy and we were still fighting about not having sex.


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## Holdingontoit

We meet with the oncologist Friday to find out the chemo schedule. Wishing H2 good fortune.


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## Fozzy

Now's the time for both of you to reconnect at the emotional level. Supporting her during times like this will build a huge amount of good will.


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## Holdingontoit

We get along great. I do whatever she needs. She feels very loved. She smiles more. She wants to hold my hand more.

I don't allow myself to want anything from her. I do what I do for her to suit my martyr complex. I like that she feels so much love. I like knowing it is a lie. Just like all the lies she told me for so many years.

She may even love me now. In ways she never did before. Oh well, too late. I could never trust her, so I will assume it is just more lies. But I would like it if she tried to show her sincerity. Would give me more chances to turn her down.


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## Holdingontoit

Long ago decided never going to end it voluntarily. Kids. Finances. I love her. I hate her. Isn't every marriage like that? Too much chaos. I do not believe I would ever find anyone else. I would rather live with her in our house where we raised our children than live alone in a dingy apartment (which is all I could afford after a divorce). We get along fine as long as I ignore the lack of sex and the overspending which has tapered off recently as she sees that I will never earn as much as she initially expected. She is just as disappointed in me as I am with her. If she is willing to stay with me despite my flaws, I am willing to stay with her. My goal is balance and equality, not happiness. We have drawn close to equal these days. I am finally content. I am not going to blow everything up in hope of finding some mythical better situation that I do not believe exists.


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## Holdingontoit

She found out Friday she will need chemo.

We had a wonderful weekend together. Spent time walking, talking, holding hands. I wish I had not needed to give up on sex or have her get cancer for her to show this level of affection.

For years she mocked me for being too needy. Now she is physically and emotionally needy and expects me to be there for her. Very hard not to be vindictive. Lots of resentment as a wall I need to tear down to enjoy her wanting to hold hands. I know what I need to do to be happy but it is difficult to let go of the resentment.


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## Anon1111

What if you just told her exactly how you feel, i.e., part of me is glad I can be here for you and part of me really wants to be here for you, but another big part of me really doesn't and cant forget how you abandoned me.

Would that just be whiny BS or could you be at a point now where you could both legitimately address the elephant in the room?


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## farsidejunky

Anon1111 said:


> What if you just told her exactly how you feel, i.e., part of me is glad I can be here for you and part of me really wants to be here for you, but another big part of me really doesn't and cant forget how you abandoned me.
> 
> Would that just be whiny BS or could you be at a point now where you could both legitimately address the elephant in the room?


I think this is a good idea. It is high time for some emotional transparency.


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## Holdingontoit

farsidejunky said:


> I think this is a good idea. It is high time for some emotional transparency.


We had 8 years of emotional transparency during MC. I told her what I needed. She told me to pound sand. I decided to stay anyway over finances and the kids. Finances and kids are still an issue for me.

The chance that she would react more favorably to emotional transparency now than she did 10 years ago is not enough to motivate me to leave my shell. I hate this. I hated the 8 years of MC more. I am not going back to honesty and openness and getting slice into Hold filet every other Wednesday.

I get a perverse pleasure from knowing that the shoe is now on the other foot. For years she pretended to find me attractive and I foolishly pursued her. In vain. Now I pretend and she pursues me. Trying to get me to let down my walls and be vulnerable. She will pursue in vain. As I did. I am never going to back to where she can reject me the way she did for the first 13 years of our marriage. 

If that means I never become happy, so be it. I don't expect to ever be happy either way. Happiness is an illusion. The only reward is playing the game well. I am playing well lately. She adores me. She wishes she could get me to go back to adoring her the way I used to. I will never give her that satisfaction again.


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## john117

Does she know about the last sentence?


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## farsidejunky

Holdingontoit said:


> We had 8 years of emotional transparency during MC. I told her what I needed. She told me to pound sand. I decided to stay anyway over finances and the kids. Finances and kids are still an issue for me.
> 
> The chance that she would react more favorably to emotional transparency now than she did 10 years ago is not enough to motivate me to leave my shell. I hate this. I hated the 8 years of MC more. I am not going back to honesty and openness and getting slice into Hold filet every other Wednesday.
> 
> I get a perverse pleasure from knowing that the shoe is now on the other foot. For years she pretended to find me attractive and I foolishly pursued her. In vain. Now I pretend and she pursues me. Trying to get me to let down my walls and be vulnerable. She will pursue in vain. As I did. I am never going to back to where she can reject me the way she did for the first 13 years of our marriage.
> 
> If that means I never become happy, so be it. I don't expect to ever be happy either way. Happiness is an illusion. The only reward is playing the game well. I am playing well lately. She adores me. She wishes she could get me to go back to adoring her the way I used to. I will never give her that satisfaction again.


Well then...

Resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the person you resent to die.

Good luck with that.


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## Anon1111

I'm going to be harsh with you because I think you're lying to yourself.

you are not getting any pleasure out of this situation.

honestly man you come off like a woman who says everything is "fine" but expects her husband to guess what is really wrong and fix it for her.

you have concocted this story for yourself that you are really in control of the situation and have "turned the tables" but it is very clear that you have not.

you are still hoping for your wife to save you and you resent her because she doesn't. on top of it you try to hide it and resent her more for not uncovering it!

in other words, you are setting her (and yourself) up to fail.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit,
Which begs the question, why are you telling us all this stuff?
You are obviously resigned to the status quo AND get some sort of perverse pleasure from it.
It seems you are deriving pleasure from all the negative aspects of your life.
I guess that's a choice that you have made and if that's the way you want to live, by all means, go for it.

The part I don't understand is why are you telling TAM if you have absolutely no desire to change anything? 

Just curious.


----------



## Holdingontoit

FSJ is correct. Resentment does not help achieve positive outcomes. I am not trying to obtain positive outcomes.

Anon is wrong. I do get pleasure from this. I got to stay with my kids the entire 18 years and watch them grow up and participate on a daily basis. Do you think my wife would have let me stay if I had been honest? I get pleasure from living in my nice house. If we divorced I would be living in a small apartment. And yes, I get pleasure from knowing my wife stayed with me all these years even though it probably would have been in her best interest to divorce me in 2005 when we stopped doing MC. She could be remarried now to a guy who could afford to buy her the cars and house furnishings and remodelings and vacations and jewelry and dinner at fancy restaurants that she desires. Staying with me she will never have those things. And yet she stays. I consider that a formidable accomplishment. I am actually surprised that I pulled this off.

She married me under false pretenses. She said "smart is sexy" and that she was tired of players and bad boys and she wanted a pleasant guy who would tend to her and her kids. She got that. But she lied. She didn't really find that sexy. She just said that to lure me in. 

Now I am keeping her tied to me by being incredibly loving and supportive during her fight against cancer. She adores me in a way that she never did before. I can see in her eyes and the way she smiles at behaviors that used to make her cringe. I have lured her in. And I am very pleased with myself that I have been able to accomplish this despite her knowing full well that I resent her for not providing the sex that I craved back when I was capable of and motivated to share that with her.

Am I happy? No. Do I wish I had a sex life? Yes. Is that ever going to change? Probably not. Just because I am disappointed in her for misleading me and disappointed in myself for staying does not mean that I cannot derive pleasure from some aspects of our relationship. Once you eliminate "winning" as an objective there are still tactical victories to be had along the way to ultimate strategic defeat.



UMP said:


> The part I don't understand is why are you telling TAM if you have absolutely no desire to change anything?


Great question. 3 reasons.

First, as a warning to anyone earlier in the path on what might end up happening if you stay in too long. Once you know there is nothing you can do while married to your current spouse that will get you what you need, get out. It will only get harder and you will become more warped if you stay.

Second, I write about how I feel to test whether I truly feel this way and truly want to keep doing this. Maybe seeing it in black and white will motivate me to make different decisions in the future.

Third, when you are living behind a mask it feels good to occasionally take off the mask and let the hidden feelings out. I basically have no friends in real life, and my wife is basically the only person I talk to outside work. So I have no outlet other than internet discussion boards for venting my feelings on these topics.

Thanks for asking.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Great question. 3 reasons.
> 
> First, as a warning to anyone earlier in the path on what might end up happening if you stay in too long. Once you know there is nothing you can do while married to your current spouse that will get you what you need, get out. It will only get harder and you will become more warped if you stay.
> 
> Second, I write about how I feel to test whether I truly feel this way and truly want to keep doing this. Maybe seeing it in black and white will motivate me to make different decisions in the future.
> 
> Third, when you are living behind a mask it feels good to occasionally take off the mask and let the hidden feelings out. I basically have no friends in real life, and my wife is basically the only person I talk to outside work. So I have no outlet other than internet discussion boards for venting my feelings on these topics.
> 
> Thanks for asking.


OK, 
That makes sense. 

I really can see how built up resentment can get you to where you are. Hell, if I get turned down for sex once, I seem to remember it for years. To me it's a motivator to do whatever it is I need to do to become a better husband. However, if this happened to me on a daily basis, I could see myself in your situation, IF I STAYED.

I have to tell you, I don't think I could make it as long as you have.

You would have probably done well in the trenches during World War I.


----------



## Anon1111

H-- what i see from the outside are a lot of intricate layers and justifications protecting something underneath.

It is like scar tissue.

My question is have you ever really tried to get beneath this and see who you really are under all of these schemes and resentments?

What comes through to me is a sensitive, caring, intelligent guy. The deviousness is a pose.

Can you embrace your real nature and stop being ashamed?

Who cares if your wife digs it or not? Are you going to let your entire being be defined by her?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> H-- what i see from the outside are a lot of intricate layers and justifications protecting something underneath.


Correct. I am injured. I don't intend to cure the disease. This is how I choose to treat the symptoms.



> My question is have you ever really tried to get beneath this and see who you really are under all of these schemes and resentments?


Yes. Did personal therapy several times. Teens. Twenties. Thirties. Fourties. Never made any difference. Took various AD meds. Took ADHD meds. Nothing made any difference. I never had the guts to make changes. I accepted the path of least resistance. I never took charge and created the life I wanted.



> What comes through to me is a sensitive, caring, intelligent guy. The deviousness is a pose.


I was a sensitive caring guy. Got me cut up and bleeding. Now I am a sensitive caring guy hiding behind high thick walls. I am not prepared to ever take them down.

As I have said, this is merely the dynamic with my wife playing out in reverse. She started our marriage with high thick walls and kept me out. That is why she rejected me sexually and never reciprocated affection or romantic gestures. She was too busy protecting herself. I told her my warmth and caring would eventually work their way in. She did not believe either that I truly cared or that I would ever get inside.

Now she has discovered that she was wrong on both counts. I did care and I am now inside her walls. Problem is, whereas I was an open book when we met, now I am the one with high thick walls that I am hiding behind. And whereas I had tools in my arsenal to slowly and steadily slip through cracks in her wall, H2 does not have what would be needed to overcome the obstacles I have set in her path. What she will offer will be too little, too late.



> Can you embrace your real nature and stop being ashamed?


No. I am worthless and weak. I am a hideous troll. I deserve to remain unhappy because I did not have the guts to demand better treatment years ago or to leave when I could have afforded the cost. Now I am old and tired and do not have the motivation or energy to fight for what I need.

No woman will ever desire me. Including my wife. So I might as well stay with the mother of my children and the woman entitled to permanent alimony should we divorce. Her being stuck with this version of me is fair recompense for the way she treated me all these years.



> Who cares if your wife digs it or not? Are you going to let your entire being be defined by her?


I am letting my entire being be defined by me. My worth is 100% defined by whether I can attract women. And I cannot. Never could. Never will. And that attitude is self-fulfilling.

As long as I see myself as worthless, I see no reason to blow up my world and my kids' worlds in the vain pursuit of "happiness" or "personal fulfillment".


----------



## Anon1111

H-- the above is all well written, but I don't really believe you believe it.

Right now, today, you have a pretty big opening to take this in a different direction. 

Just like you wish you had taken a different course many years ago, I will bet that you will wish you had seized this opportunity years from now if you just continue as you are.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Maybe. We'll see.

We stopped MC 10 years ago. Everyone who knew me then thought we would be divorced within 2 years. Or no later than when the kids left home. We are still together. I have no intention of leaving. And I can assure you that I have been a seething ball of resentment the entire time.

Will I regret not trying to reconnect with my wife? Maybe. Right now I am focused on getting her through cancer and seeing what she is physically capable of doing after that. Might not be any choice to make.

Let me turn this around on you. I think we have fairly well established that A2 is like me in that she makes her decisions primarily based on fear. Do you think that she will eventually regret not being more available to you? Even if there is a chance she will, do you think that pointing that "risk" out to her would have ANY impact on her decision to remain unavailable? I don't think so either. Why do you think it will be any different for me?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Nice day with H2 yesterday. Did chores early and went to a music festival. 5 or 6 hours. She was bored after a while, but stayed because I was enjoying it. We left with 3 or 4 acts to go because I could see she had reached her limit.

Things are much better than they were years ago. I still resent her over needing to eliminate sex to get here. But definitely too good to leave and blow up over the absence of sex.

Some might say I should drop the resentment. But that would mean she won and I lost. To me, my holding on to the resentment balances out her refusing to have sex. For us to stay together, I have to accept sexlessness and she has to accept my resentment.


----------



## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Let me turn this around on you. I think we have fairly well established that A2 is like me in that she makes her decisions primarily based on fear. Do you think that she will eventually regret not being more available to you? Even if there is a chance she will, do you think that pointing that "risk" out to her would have ANY impact on her decision to remain unavailable? I don't think so either. Why do you think it will be any different for me?


Well, I think you and A2 are quite different. You are very self aware, you just choose not to do anything with your hard won self knowledge. 

At times it makes me think, despite your overall high level of self awareness, you have a major blind spot regarding yourself. I can't really understand why you would choose the path you've chosen if you really understood it. Yet you seem to describe it quite well. It is really confusing.

By contrast, I seriously doubt A2 has a high level of introspection right now. I think she mainly just reacts to things with a veneer of OCD. 

I think eventually our kids situation will become routine enough that the fog will clear a bit for her and she'll be able to see herself.

At that point, assuming I haven't in the interim found a superhuman level of empathy that has so far eluded me, I do think she'll regret her course, because I will be gone eve if I am still physically there.

By contrast, you are acutely aware of the disconnect and the missed opportunities (one of which you may be watching pass you by right now).


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Nice day with H2 yesterday. Did chores early and went to a music festival. 5 or 6 hours. She was bored after a while, but stayed because I was enjoying it. We left with 3 or 4 acts to go because I could see she had reached her limit.
> 
> Things are much better than they were years ago. I still resent her over needing to eliminate sex to get here. But definitely too good to leave and blow up over the absence of sex.
> 
> Some might say I should drop the resentment. But that would mean she won and I lost. To me, my holding on to the resentment balances out her refusing to have sex. For us to stay together, I have to accept sexlessness and she has to accept my resentment.


Again, instead of dropping the resentment, why not just reveal it to her, admit you wish you could let it go, but that it needs to be a joint effort to do that. Are you afraid she'll say "no"?


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## Holdingontoit

Anon she knows darn well I have resentment over he lack of sex. She doesn't raise the issue because she is not willing to deal with it.

She is understandably and justifiably afraid right now. She is going to need strong chemo. She has never been as grateful and appreciative and "in love" with me as she is now. She tears up when she thinks about how lucky she is that she married a guy who is totally supportive despite my needs not being met. But she is not offering to do anything. No promises of how she is going to make it up to me when she recovers. You can see on her face that the thought occurs to her when she looks at me but she cannot bring herself to say it.

I am actually about as pleased with our marriage as I have ever been. She loves me. She wishes I felt about her the way she currently feels about me. She knows I don't. But she is staying anyway. It is complete role reversal from the first 20 years of our marriage. When I was lusting after her and she was not feeling it. I like it this way and a, not willing to risk changing it in the hopes of finding something "even better".

What am I afraid of? That as soon as I go back to allowing myself to desire her, to allow myself to love her fully and without reservation, without holding part of myself back, then she will go back to rejecting me. We stopped having sex literally the day I said "I do". So she is capable of turning love / affection / sex off like a switch. Yes, I fear she might do it again. I am NEVER going to allow her finger to be on that switch again. I keep the switch turned off so she can't do it to me. Hurts. But at least I have some semblance of control over the outcome.

I am not going back to being under her thumb. Even if it means we will never have the sex life that I want or the emotional closeness I want. I don't expect to ever have that anyway, as I am not willing to pay the price to get there. For our relationship, I am managing the downside only. I have given up any hope of ever having an upside. For my life, I am aiming for upside that involves control and autonomy, and not sharing and fulfillment. Exactly the same as the way she managed our sex life during the years when we had one. Turnabout is fair play.


----------



## always_alone

Holdingontoit said:


> What am I afraid of? That as soon as I go back to allowing myself to desire her, to allow myself to love her fully and without reservation, without holding part of myself back, then she will go back to rejecting me. We stopped having sex literally the day I said "I do". So she is capable of turning love / affection / sex off like a switch. Yes, I fear she might do it again. I am NEVER going to allow her finger to be on that switch again. I keep the switch turned off so she can't do it to me. Hurts. But at least I have some semblance of control over the outcome.
> 
> I am not going back to being under her thumb. Even if it means we will never have the sex life that I want or the emotional closeness I want. I don't expect to ever have that anyway, as I am not willing to pay the price to get there. For our relationship, I am managing the downside only. I have given up any hope of ever having an upside. For my life, I am aiming for upside that involves control and autonomy, and not sharing and fulfillment. Exactly the same as the way she managed our sex life during the years when we had one. Turnabout is fair play.


I find your story compelling, but I'm not sure what it is, and wish I could put my finger on it. It is kind of amazing how much damage we will do to ourselves in the name of protection. 

I do this too: beat myself up so that no one else can get to me first. And I am *ever* so much better at it than they are. I expect you are too.


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## Holdingontoit

AA: Exactly. I am better at it than anyone else. Although H2 made quite the run at it.

As for continuing to do damage, depends on how wide you set the camera angle. Wide view: if you need to turn off your sex life to tolerate your marriage, then you should divorce. If you are willing to divorce, then it makes no sense to turn off your sex life. Narrower view: I have decided to never divorce. Within the context of staying married to someone who does not desire me, turning off our sex life entirely hurts less than keeping it turned on, initiating whenever I am in the mood, and getting rejected the overwhelming majority of the time. So the damage from turning myself off (and I acknowledge there is damage) seems to be less than the damage from subjecting myself to frequent rejection. Yes, divorcing and removing myself from the source of rejection might hurt less as to the sexual issue, but then there are financial costs, impact on kids, etc. So the choice is not between keeping the switch on or turning the switch off. The choice is between turning the switch off or divorce, which entails permanent alimony, giving away half of retirement funds, blowing up kids' world, jeopardizing college financing, etc. Not an easy choice, but not nearly so clearcut as to which is the wrong choice.

The "wrong" choice was staying married 23 years ago when we basically did not have sex on our honeymoon. Or 15 years ago when it became clear a couple of years of MC had no impact on (much less resolve) our mismatch. But when you shift forward to today and we are still together the choice is not as one-sided.


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## Holdingontoit

Also, let me explain more on the "non-damaging" part of turning the switch off.

Back when we were doing MC and fighting about sex, many of the MCs told us to have date nights. Eventually I found date nights painful. No matter how much fun we had, no matter how bright and sparkling the conversation, they never ended in sex. Often, they ended with "I had a great time tonight, but I hope you understand that there is not going to be any sex when we get home." Or as soon as we open the door at home "I am tired."

I like spending time with H2. We enjoy the same foods, music, etc. That is part of what brought us together. I do not want to give up dinner together or concerts just because we are not having sex. When we fought over sex, that tension tainted time spent together. Now that we don't have sex at all, I find it easier to relax and enjoy the time we spend together.

So it isn't entirely punishing myself. It isn't all doing damage. Some of it is freeing myself to enjoy myself more. Some of it enables me to feel less pain than I used to feel. Some if it IS protecting me.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Also, let me explain more on the "non-damaging" part of turning the switch off.
> 
> Back when we were doing MC and fighting about sex, many of the MCs told us to have date nights. Eventually I found date nights painful. No matter how much fun we had, no matter how bright and sparkling the conversation, they never ended in sex. Often, they ended with "I had a great time tonight, but I hope you understand that there is not going to be any sex when we get home." Or as soon as we open the door at home "I am tired."
> 
> I like spending time with H2. We enjoy the same foods, music, etc. That is part of what brought us together. I do not want to give up dinner together or concerts just because we are not having sex. When we fought over sex, that tension tainted time spent together. Now that we don't have sex at all, I find it easier to relax and enjoy the time we spend together.
> 
> So it isn't entirely punishing myself. It isn't all doing damage. Some of it is freeing myself to enjoy myself more. Some of it enables me to feel less pain than I used to feel. Some if it IS protecting me.


If your wife woke up tomorrow in great health with no returning cancer, would she be a different person or not? (regarding sex with you)


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## MarriedTex

UMP said:


> If your wife woke up tomorrow in great health with no returning cancer, would she be a different person or not? (regarding sex with you)


Great question!


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## Holdingontoit

UMP said:


> If your wife woke up tomorrow in great health with no returning cancer, would she be a different person or not? (regarding sex with you)


I hope and pray that we reach that day to discover the answer. Her being in great health would be a true blessing.

I do not believe that she will be different regarding sex with me. Then again, I would not allow myself to believe that. Even if she were, I doubt she would be forceful enough to prove to me she is sincere. If the only change is that she would reject me less often when I initiate, then we will never find out.

Hey, I know I am being difficult. I am trying to change the past, not the future. I understand that is impossible. I am not trying to create a great sex life in the future. That requires hard work on my part. Overcoming poor physical shape, ED, PE, exercising, taking meds, etc. Much more work than a more active sex life would have required in the past. Plus I would have to open myself up to her emotionally. Risk rejection. make myself vulnerable. I do not trust her enough to do that.

Since I am not willing to invest that time and energy becoming physically capable of having a satisfying sex life, and I am not willing to take the risk of opening up to her, I am investing my time and energy in creating a marriage I can tolerate that does not involve having sex with my wife. I find it demands far less time and energy on my part to obtain the secondary "payoff" from being in control and of having her chase me instead of me chasing her. She never let me catch her when I was pursuing her for sex. I will never let her catch me when she is pursuing me for an emotional connection.

Others would aim higher and endure downside risk to get there. I am aiming lower and minimizing my downside risk. Some would say "it will eventually catch up with you and you will explode". After 10 years of living this way, I can say that FOR ME it gets easier rather than more difficult. My marriage feels more rewarding for me than it did back when we had sporadic sex. Much better than when we were in MC and actively fighting over sex.

As I said earlier, I am not suggesting this path to others. But if someone else were foolish enough to find themselves many years into sexlessness and still unwilling to pull the plug and get divorced, then I would suggest they try this to see if it feels better. Because it might.


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## UMP

holdingontoit, 
I have to tell you that in some strange way, I admire you.
If I go longer than a week without sex I want to put a bullet in my head and here you are taking care of your sick wife and saying what a true "blessing" it would be if she were to get better.

Some would argue that you are weak and afraid because you have not divorced. 
However, for someone to go through what you have gone through and come to complete acceptance of said situation with your eyes wide open takes COURAGE. I don't care what anyone says. I think you are very much stronger than you think. I, for one, would not last a week in your situation.

From one man to another, I salute you.


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## ConanHub

Hahaha!!!

Ok. Cautionary tale.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111

H-- You may find this lame or insightful, depending on your perspective. I enjoyed thinking about it. I wonder if this might describe the path your marriage has taken or, alternately, the path it might still take.

*********


Tanzan and Ekido were once traveling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was still falling. 

Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection. 

"Come on, girl" said Tanzan at once. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud. 

Ekido did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he told Tanzan, "especially not young and lovely ones. It is dangerous. Why did you do that?" 

"I left the girl there," said Tanzan. "Are you still carrying her?"


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## Holdingontoit

I am still carrying. See my username.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> I am still carrying. See my username.


So stop it.


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## Holdingontoit

No thanks. Reached equilibrium. Not where I wanted to end up, but I am not willing to destabilize in the hope of reaching a better place.


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## Anon1111

You can be there physically and not carry her in your mind.

You've reached an equilibrium where you've ceded your happiness to her.

Can you physically carry her across the stream and let her go in the temple of your mind like the dude above?


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## Holdingontoit

No.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> No.


Have you tried?


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: Thanks for expending so much effort on my behalf. Call me stubborn. Call me lazy. Call me fearful. I simply am not interested in trying to make things "better". Trying to make things "better" would require hope that "better" exists. Allowing myself to hope creates enormous pain, anxiety and distraction. It has a huge negative impact on my performance at work. It is precisely by eliminating any hope that I have come to achieve acceptance. Acceptance allows me to function better than when I had hope. With a sick wife and 2 kids in college, I can't afford to indulge any desire for "better". I have to buckle down and do my work and pay the bills.

So no, I am not going to try ANYTHING that is intended to make things "better".

Like I said, I do appreciate the concern. But I have chosen my path. I have my reasons. You might not agree with them, or the conclusion I have reached. That is OK. You are free to make different choices for yourself. I wish you well in making them.


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## Holdingontoit

Personal said:


> You know what I believe you I really do, that said it doesn't take away the fact it is such a shame for both you and your wife that you hurt each other the way you do.


Yes, it is a shame. But we are a long way down the road and neither of us is willing to do the work or make the investment to get from here to a better place. We both wish it were different. But neither of us is willing to do what it would take to make it different.



> I also wish you and your wife well.


Thank you.


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## Anon1111

I think this cancer scare will shake you both out of your inertia.

I have a tendency to not give up on things though to an irrational degree.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> I think this cancer scare will shake you both out of your inertia.


Maybe Mrs. Hold, although she is many months and medical treatments away from being in a position to act on any such epiphany.

For me, not likely. I can honestly say that if anything it has reinforced my determination to stay where I am. I get enormous emotional payoff from catering to her needs while she remains physically unable to attend to mine.



> I have a tendency to not give up on things though to an irrational degree.


Like I don't?!?! Again, have you looked at my username?


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: I want to make this dynamic as clear as I can. For things to get "better" for me I would have to perform better sexually. To do that, I would have to eat right, exercise, work on my strength, fitness, stamina, etc. Buy and take Viagra or Cialis. Which means taking a pill 30 to 60 minutes before I intend to have sex. Or taking the everyday version which means taking a pill every day.

Do you think I am capable of doing all this without creating huge expectations that we ARE going to have sex? And not just on those rare occasions when the whim strikes H2, but reliably and consistently? Otherwise, why the heck am I going to all this effort to get into "sex shape"? Not suggesting that someone else wouldn't be able to do it for their own health, longevity, etc. But for ME, the only reason I would be doing all this is to have good sex with H2. And H2 would know this. Which places enormous pressure on her to consent. Not what the experts suggest is helpful for an unrecovered rape victim.

So the risks are simply too high for me to be the one who initiates change. If I "go first", the pressure increases on both of us. With her having cancer and both our kids in college, we don't need more pressure.

If she is willing to initiate, and to consent to things other than PIV sex, and she shows a willingness to show me how to reliably bring her to orgasm other than through PIV, then perhaps I would be willing to embark on a journey of mutual exploration that might eventually lead to PIV sex. But if she continues to confine our sex to PIV. And does not permit me to even attempt to bring her to orgasm. Then it simply is not worth the effort to me to have any sex with her at all. I would rather continue to polish my pearl of resentment. Not saying that makes me admirable. But I don't think it is all that unusual in long term mismatch marriages.


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## Anon1111

Hey H--

On the physical fitness thing, I think you've got the wrong perspective.

I think the people who pursue that for reasons other than for the activity itself generally don't last long. Which is why you see gym attendance go up every January and then go back to normal a month later.

Based on how you've described yourself, I think you should start to exercise (and probably eat better too) without any hope of it affecting your sex life. Abandon that idea at the start because, as you know, it is very likely to have no effect anyway.

Exercise will actually HELP you cope with the fact that you are not getting laid.

When I lock out a new record lift for me I feel like a f-cking animal. In that moment, nothing else matters.

That high will stay with you. The anticipation of that high will make a lot of other stuff seem not as important.

You need something like this in your life.


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## MarriedTex

Anon1111 said:


> Hey H--
> 
> On the physical fitness thing, I think you've got the wrong perspective.
> 
> I think the people who pursue that for reasons other than for the activity itself generally don't last long. Which is why you see gym attendance go up every January and then go back to normal a month later.
> 
> Based on how you've described yourself, I think you should start to exercise (and probably eat better too) without any hope of it affecting your sex life. Abandon that idea at the start because, as you know, it is very likely to have no effect anyway.
> 
> Exercise will actually HELP you cope with the fact that you are not getting laid.
> 
> When I lock out a new record lift for me I feel like a f-cking animal. In that moment, nothing else matters.
> 
> That high will stay with you. The anticipation of that high will make a lot of other stuff seem not as important.
> 
> You need something like this in your life.


Agreed! Physical fitness produces its own rewards. Start small. 

Put one of those pedometer apps on your smartphone and set a goal of 10,000 steps a day. When you're at 8,000 steps at 8 p.m., you might take an extra walk or two to hit your daily goals. Literally, a good first step. 

Don't worry about a gym right now - unless you view it as a positive place to spend time. Just get yourself moving a bit. Your kids deserve to have you around for a long time. Even a little bit of activity increases the odds for longevity. Don't do it for the sex. Do it for yourself.


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## Holdingontoit

Guys, I exercised for years. Got in good shape. Never mattered. I never got an endorphin rush. Never felt better about myself. Just doesn't do anything for me.

At various times: I went to the gym. I worked out at home. I signed up for a charity half marathon where we trained as a group. I have done aerobic work. Strength training. Sometimes working very hard. Sometimes doing just enough to avoid being sedentary. None of it does anything for me. Maybe it is my overall depression. Maybe it is the chemicals that trigger the depression. Whatever it is, I don't get any intrinsic payoff from the exercise.

When I get in shape and we don't have sex and I don't plan on leaving her I don't feel better about myself, I feel worse.

These days I eat crap and don't work out and don't gain weight and it drives my wife nuts. Exercise can't hold a candle to that payoff.

I know I am a rare duck. I tell all the guys at TAM and on other forums "hit the gym". It is overwhelmingly good advice. But I tried it for years and it does nothing for me.


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## Anon1111

OK. maybe you're a vampire?

I'm going to probe this a bit more because it does not seem physiologically possible that you're that different from every other person.

did you ever lift HEAVY weight? or did you just to the normal "strength training" stuff that 90% of gym goers do (machine circuits, never really pushing your max weight, going more for "tone" than actual strength development). 

Did you actually get significantly stronger? This is not an ego contest. I think there is a real psychological effect from seeing yourself get significantly physically stronger. Did you do an actual strength training program with progressions? 

My guess is that you didn't get the benefit because you were doing it wrong.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: That may be the case. Never did heavy weights. When we used to go camping my buddy who is taller than me and has a personal trainer was impressed with my strength. But that might just have been King of the Nerds. I maxxed out at 16 chinups per set when I was doing P90X. Is that alot or a little? In any case, if I have to do it harder, endure more pain, pay for a trainer, etc., then we get back to the "I am investing too much".

Maybe if I worked hard enough and got stronger and changed my shape I would feel differently. Maybe I would have more self confidence and would be willing to leave my wife.

Sorry, not willing to make the investment to find out. In my view, just as likely to destabilize my life and lead to downward changes as to lead to improvement.


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## Anon1111

16 pullups is a lot. that is impressive. My best is 15. But actually, once you are doing more than about 5 reps of any exercise, it stops being a true strength test and is more of a muscle endurance test.

I don't think proper strength training requires enduring massive sacrifice or pain.

it actually requires suprisingly little time or effort.

I am totally serious-- two 30 minute sessions per week is all it really takes. You do not need to physically destroy yourself.

You just have to treat each session as a mental contest to always progress.

You never do the same thing twice. Each session you add slightly more weight or get 1 more rep.

Focus on big multi-joint compound lifts.

Eat well and get a good night's rest. Then 3 days later, do it again. But slightly better. That's it.

It is like 90% mental. That is why it is satisfying.

Don't look at it as destabilizing. Not everything has to be about your marriage. Make this your sanctuary.

Edit: in case i'm not being clear, the satisfaction is not from how you look after you do this. You might get significantly stronger and not even look different (a lot of the change is purely neurological). That happens with a lot of guys (sometimes to their frustration).


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: Buddy, like I said. BTDT. Did not get any sense of satisfaction. Did not enjoy the workouts. Did not feel good about myself after.

Now I do feel good about me. In a bad way. I behave lovingly and supportively toward H2. She adores me. She will not leave me. And she is stuck with short, dumpy, out of shape, can't get it up, small weiner me. I am not looking to parlay this into making things "better". If I do that, I lose all power and control. I am trying to keep things this way. This way she gets shortchanged just as much as I did.

Don't you understand? I do not want my wife to be married to a guy who is strong and in shape. I want her to be married to a guy with a lousy body who treats her so well she can't bear to leave him. I want her to feel trapped in a marriage too good to leave but not entirely satisfying. Just like I am.

Balanced. Equal. Fair. Those are my goals for my marriage. Happiness does not enter into it.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: Buddy, like I said. BTDT. Did not get any sense of satisfaction. Did not enjoy the workouts. Did not feel good about myself after.
> 
> Now I do feel good about me. In a bad way. I behave lovingly and supportively toward H2. She adores me. She will not leave me. And she is stuck with short, dumpy, out of shape, can't get it up, small weiner me. I am not looking to parlay this into making things "better". If I do that, I lose all power and control. I am trying to keep things this way. This way she gets shortchanged just as much as I did.
> 
> Don't you understand? I do not want my wife to be married to a guy who is strong and in shape. I want her to be married to a guy with a lousy body who treats her so well she can't bear to leave him. I want her to feel trapped in a marriage too good to leave but not entirely satisfying. Just like I am.
> 
> Balanced. Equal. Fair. Those are my goals for my marriage. Happiness does not enter into it.


Would your wife be more upset and frustrated with husband #1 or #2?

#1 Short, dumpy, out of shape, can't get it up, small weene who is kind to her but won't have sex.

#2 Short, but with heels, in shape, CAN get it up, bigger weene because he lost weight, who is kind to her, but won't have sex. Sometimes he gets into bed and masturbates in front of her while watching porn without saying a word and shoots his cum over to her from his side of the bed. (by accident)


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: Buddy, like I said. BTDT. Did not get any sense of satisfaction. Did not enjoy the workouts. Did not feel good about myself after.
> 
> Now I do feel good about me. In a bad way. I behave lovingly and supportively toward H2. She adores me. She will not leave me. And she is stuck with short, dumpy, out of shape, can't get it up, small weiner me. I am not looking to parlay this into making things "better". If I do that, I lose all power and control. I am trying to keep things this way. This way she gets shortchanged just as much as I did.
> 
> Don't you understand? I do not want my wife to be married to a guy who is strong and in shape. I want her to be married to a guy with a lousy body who treats her so well she can't bear to leave him. I want her to feel trapped in a marriage too good to leave but not entirely satisfying. Just like I am.
> 
> Balanced. Equal. Fair. Those are my goals for my marriage. Happiness does not enter into it.


OK.

two comments.

First, it is very strange to me how you are determined to see everything through the lense of your marriage. Don't you have any interest in having an independent existence? Not everything has to be about how it will affect your relationship. I think your intense focus on this is highly damaging to you. When you read this, take a step back and ask yourself if your temptation is to spin it back and say you don't want an independent existence because that will undermine the purgatory you've engineered in your marriage. If you have this urge, you are proving my point.

second, check out UMP's post. If your only desire in life is to stick it to your wife, do you really think she's feeling left out from sharing a meaningful relationship with you right now? This seems to be a bit of a fantasy based on how you're describing yourself.

Obviously, it is your life-- live it how you want. It's just that there are some big internal inconsistencies in what you are saying.


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## Holdingontoit

UMP: I don't want to be so rude and insulting that she decides it IS worth it to divorce. I don't want to throw the "too good to leave" part out.

And my weener isn't getting any bigger. I don't have belly flab shortening it. And it was just as tiny when I ran half a marathon, did P90X, etc. Badsanta suggested someone watch AMWF porn to get ideas about positions that work for under-endowed guys. None of the AMs on pornhub are as small as me. 

Yes, she is frustrated. She is frustrated financially. She wants me to eat healthy and go back to exercising so I can live a long time with her and not abandon her in her old age. She complains when I tell her I do not intend to have sex with her after she recovers physically (not because she misses the sex, but because she hates not being in control and hates not being able to pretend that we have a functioning sex life).

Anon: Yes, I am trying to stay stuck here. Of course I am. I am masochistic and am determined to stay in purgatory. Have I ever tried to hide that?

I am John. Except I am not going to drop the bomb and divorce. My "bomb" is that I am going to stay with her. To me, this outcome is ironic and poetic and fitting. I LOVE this outcome. You are free to choose differently, and I encourage you to do so. You have to be a sick twisted puppy like me to get off on this.

Maybe some day she will wise up and leave me. Maybe I will live to regret making this choice. But it is mine to make. The very fact that most people find it horrible is part of what makes it so very personal and attractive to me. Every time you tell me what a stupid choice it is, I am more determined to stay the course. Yes, it is doomed to failure in terms of my being happy. Like I said, I long ago abandoned being happy, self-respecting, satisfied, etc.

Guys, I hope you enjoy this mental masturbating as much as I do. This is what gets me through the day.


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## UMP

What happens if your wife dies before you because of her illness?
What then?


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## Anon1111

I know you're free to choose it.

I just am not sure what you think you're choosing is actually what you're getting.

On the one hand it seems as though you have engineered some kind of "win" out of a situation that was not of your choosing.

On the other hand, everything you do and every decision you make seems locked in this box. And it is not even clear that your wife understands how fatalistic this game is (I am assuming she is in the dark). 

Take the classic game theory example of how to win at the game of chicken.

Two cars are racing toward each other. The person who turns away first loses. 

so what is the dominant strategy? remove the possibility of turning away (i.e., mechanically disengage the ability to steer the car or brake).

the problem is that if the other driver does not KNOW you can't turn away, the strategy may still fail.

does this bear any resemblance to your marriage?


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## Holdingontoit

UMP said:


> What happens if your wife dies before you because of her illness? What then?


I hope I do not live to see that outcome. But if I had to imagine, most likely I sit home and play computer games for the rest of my life. Why do you ask?

You think I would hit the gym, get in shape, and go seeking another woman?

Nope. I am never showing my miserable excuse for a penis to another woman. We have already determined on another thread that my oral and manual technique is lousy. So that eliminates sex. Well, I guess maybe I could be better with toys. But I can't imagine myself ever working up the courage to approach a woman who gave any indication she might be willing to incorporate toys quickly enough that she hadn't already dumped me for being incredibly inept.

And I am certainly not marrying another woman.



Anon1111 said:


> the problem is that if the other driver does not KNOW you can't turn away, the strategy may still fail.


Only true if you view the collision as failure. You are still focused on how to get past the car coming at you. To reach the destination on the other side. I am playing a different game.


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## UMP

Well, 
You are the indeed the "immovable object!

Is your penis really that small? Is it a micro penis? It can't be THAT small.
I hear jelqing really works. You could become the penis enlargement poster boy.
But hey, you are pretty much "immovable" so I don't know what to say.


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## Anon1111

well, I don't understand what the point is.

is it to torture your wife? if so, I doubt she examines this stuff to the degree you do, so I doubt she feels much from all of this.

There is a big, gaping hole in what you are doing here. I am trying to follow your logic and I can see it with respect to specific acts, but I cannot see what the fundamental point of all of this is.


----------



## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> I am John. Except I am not going to drop the bomb and divorce. My "bomb" is that I am going to stay with her.



Actually I dropped tracer rounds not too long ago and explained that the end game looks a lot worse for her from all angles than it is for me. Crickets.

I've thought about sticking around just to tee her off but there's financial considerations at play...


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## Anon1111

even suicide bombers have an end goal in mind.


----------



## john117

Yet tracers are useful due to the psychological impact of knowing what's coming


----------



## Holdingontoit

Guys, please understand that my marriage is the best it has ever been. Period. Full stop. My wife adores me and treats me better (outside of sex) than she ever has. She is more pleasant (used to be harsh, condescending and rude). She is more affectionate. She does a better job of watching what she spends. All around much closer (except the sex) to what I hoped she would be when we got married. The overall mix when we had infrequent and unsatisfying sex was much worse. Only my desperation for sex kept me pursuing her and tolerating the rest of her lousy behavior.

So my goal at this point is to keep sex out of our marriage permanently. Without the sex, everything else works better and I am happier.

That leaves me with the tricky issue of restraining myself from re-introducing sex. I still want sex. I still get horny. I still jack off and resent being married and having to jack off to obtain release. So I need to, in effect, erect an electric fence to contain my desire. Otherwise, I would undoubtedly falter and accept an offer of starfish sex and resent myself for giving in. As important, I predict once she became comfortable that I was once again pursuing her for sex, she would go back to trying to use sex to control me, go back to being selfish and rude and annoying, etc.

So I need to create a situation in which I have powerful motivation to avoid sex. As a self-preservation mechanism. Which is where avoiding exercise comes in. Not being able to get it up, not being able to go at it forcefully, and not being able to finish combine to create enough shame that I am powerfully motivated to avoid sex. Seems to be working.

I like this version of our marriage far more than I enjoyed the version where I worked out, got in shape and had infrequent starfish sex. I am not going to change this dynamic. Maybe you guys could get in shape and control your desires. I know myself. I am too weak willed. If she offered, and I thought I could perform properly, I would give in.

I like being pursued. I would not be pursued more if I got into shape. I would be pursued less. She would be afraid to pursue me if I got in shape. Her demons would not allow her to open up to someone she truly desired physically. She can only open up to someone her subconscious views as "no threat".

I know this all seems crazy but in a twisted way it has brought me to a better place than I ever got when pursuing more traditional remedies. I like it here. I am going to stay.

Thanks to all for their concern.

Oh, and personal, I do think she loves me. I never doubted she loved me. But love is not enough. I wanted her to desire me. And she never did. I think she loves me more than ever. I don't think she desires me. So I have to create an environment in which I do not want her to desire me. I found it. I am going to cling to it.


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## Anon1111

OK, now I get it. You've figured out a weird way to make the best of your situation. It's OK, not good, but you're not willing to risk OK in pursuit of good due to the substantial likelihood that such pursuit will result in "awful".

All of the above though assumes a closed system in which you must stay married, which is obviously false.

So how do you justify staying married to begin with? The knowledge that no one else will want you?

Why not just be happy by yourself?


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## UMP

Holdingontoit, 
If you're really serious about what you are saying, you should just get castrated and be done with it. This way you will not even have to put up any "electric fence." Castration will do it for you with no pesky feelings or desires to overcome.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> All of the above though assumes a closed system in which you must stay married, which is obviously false.


"Must" is relative. You are of course correct that as a legal / theoretical matter I have the legal right / choice to get divorced. But there are aspects of that over which I have no control. If I divorce, then I must pay permanent alimony to H2 until she dies or remarries. I must sign over half of my already insufficient 401(k) balance to her. I must move out of my house (neither of us could afford to maintain it separately). I would be unable to support my kids in college to the same extent.



> So how do you justify staying married to begin with?


See above.



> The knowledge that no one else will want you?


Correct. Can't imagine any woman who is comfortable with her sexuality and enjoys sex would pick me to be her long term partner. If I am not going to have consistent or mutually satisfying sex with anyone else, why get divorced?



> Why not just be happy by yourself?


I met H2 around age 30. I was unhappy "by myself" throughout college and graduate school and while living the single life as a young well paid professional in a big city with many single females. I cannot imagine being happy "by myself" post divorce. Like I said, I don't do happy. I did therapy for depression in my teens and 20s with no measurable impact on my mood. I did more therapy and took various AD meds in my 30s and 40s with no measurable impact on my mood. I am done trying to become happy.

As it is I have a companion. We can go out to dinner. We can go to concerts. We can go on walks / hikes. We can talk about our kids.

I have no friends. Basically never did. H2 and I do not socialize much as a couple and by myself I don't socialize at all. She socializes more by herself than we do together. As a divorced guy I am going to sit alone in my apartment and watch tv and read and play computer games. That is what I did in my 20s as a single guy. It is very lonely.

Now that I have taken sex off the table I enjoy spending time with H2 more than back when sexual tension and conflict hung in the air. I like it better this way. I am violently opposed to re-introducing the sexual tension into our relationship.

Maybe UMP is correct that I need to get castrated. But I do like the ability to jack off and have an orgasm when I feel tense and need to get to sleep quickly. I guess I could take sleeping pills but the jacking off works well and leaves no grogginess or dry mouth in the morning. And jacking off helps feed the resentment which keeps sex with H2 off the table. As you say, a nice stable closed system.


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## Anon1111

H-- I think I understand where you are coming from. I just think it is sad that you've convinced yourself you really can't do better than this.

You're a long way from your 20s, right? In your 20s you were lonely because you probably had some expectation that you should be in a relationship with a woman, having a family, etc.

But now you've done all of that. It wasn't what you hoped it would be. 

You could have a very different single life now, free of the baggage of expectation.

Once your kids are out of college, couldn't you, for example, just get lost in some 3rd world country? Let H2 have the house and all of that BS. 

There are so many possibilities.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> Once your kids are out of college, couldn't you, for example, just get lost in some 3rd world country? Let H2 have the house and all of that BS.


No, not me. I don't have the imagination. I don't have the money. I have too much fear.

I could never just "chuck it all" and start over. I don't like myself enough. Or respect myself enough. Or trust myself enough.

I refuse to admit to myself what I want. I fear that whatever I want is too far away and too different from what I have. I don't have the guts to drop this and try to have that.

See Anon, there is a reason no women find me attractive. And it is not purely physical.

I am a very analytical person. I have looked deep inside myself. I have seen my inner weakness. I know me. And I know I lack guts. As my FIL (may he rest in peace) said "when the going gets tough, Hold gets stupid". I am never going to challenge myself to any real extent. Because I know when pushed hard, I will inevitably fail. The fact that I can say that about myself and not be motivated to do anything about it confirms my analysis.

Women can smell that weakness and fear a mile away. And it disgusts them.

Mrs. Hold is willing to stay with me as long as I keep sex off the table in large part because the part of her that has never healed from the rapes sees that weakness and fear and feels safe. She knows I will never force myself on her, because I don't have the guts. To her subconscious, that is a good thing even if it renders me sexually unattractive. So you see, in a wierd and twisted way we are very well matched. She is the right woman for me. Just not in the way I originally imagined.


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## UMP

Is castration right for me?
http://sherrylanina.tripod.com/castrationfactors.htm

effects of Castration
http://sherrylanina.tripod.com/castrationeffects.htm


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## Anon1111

Doesn't take much imagination.

Here, I will give you a plan:

1. sell house
2. liquidate 401k
3. quit job
4. buy 1 way ticket to Vietnam, Thailand, Nicaragua or Guatemala (maybe just pull a name out of a hat)
5. get on the plane and start partying until your money runs out


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## UMP

Anon1111 said:


> Doesn't take much imagination.
> 
> Here, I will give you a plan:
> 
> 1. sell house
> 2. liquidate 401k
> 3. quit job
> 4. buy 1 way ticket to Vietnam, Thailand, Nicaragua or Guatemala (maybe just pull a name out of a hat)
> 5. get on the plane and start partying until your money runs out


Go with Vietnam.
The viet girls give great pedicures

Last time my wife turned me down for sex I just drove down the street and got a pede from a hot Vietnamese doll. :smile2:


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: maybe that is your fantasy. Why are you not pursuing it?

Why are you trying so hard to convince me to change? I keep telling you that my marriage is currently better than it has ever been. And that I feel a balance between me and H2. If I stay with her I will never have the sex life I desire. But if H2 stays with me, she will never have the financial lifestyle she desires. Fair and balanced, just like Fox News.

Why are you so invested in me changing? My friend, I suggest it has very little to do with me.


----------



## Anon1111

Well, I just don't believe that you are really satisfied by this. It doesn't add up.

I'm in a different place in my life than you but I'm trying to imagine what I would do if I was in your shoes.


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## Steve1000

Anon1111 said:


> Doesn't take much imagination.
> 
> Here, I will give you a plan:
> 
> 1. sell house
> 2. liquidate 401k
> 3. quit job
> 4. buy 1 way ticket to Vietnam, Thailand, Nicaragua or Guatemala (maybe just pull a name out of a hat)
> 5. get on the plane and start partying until your money runs out


Now that's a great plan! :smile2: I would more recommend Vietnam and Thailand because they are both pretty safe to travel around.


----------



## Steve1000

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: maybe that is your fantasy. Why are you not pursuing it?
> 
> Why are you trying so hard to convince me to change? I keep telling you that my marriage is currently better than it has ever been. And that I feel a balance between me and H2. If I stay with her I will never have the sex life I desire. But if H2 stays with me, she will never have the financial lifestyle she desires. Fair and balanced, just like Fox News.
> 
> Why are you so invested in me changing? My friend, I suggest it has very little to do with me.


I'm not so sure that Anon is "so invested" in you changing. Some of us just have empathy and want to try to be helpful to someone who has been going through some difficult times. I also hope that the 2nd half of your life will be much happier than the first.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: I never said I was satisfied. I said I was a seething ball of frustration. Still, I have found a place of repose. I don't like it here. But I like most places in the immediate vicinity less. I don't have the guts to traverse the bad regions to get someplace better. Simple as that.

Most people don't get to my place because they have the guts and the good sense to divorce before they get here. I think you find my story compelling because it hits fairly close to home. If you don't want to end up here, you may well have to go to Plan D. I can understand why you hesitate to pull that pin. But realize there is a good chance you will end up living in my neighborhood if you don't.


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## Holdingontoit

Steve1000 said:


> Some of us just have empathy and want to try to be helpful to someone who has been going through some difficult times.


I do not see this as "difficult times". That implies recent and temporary. I have been married 23 years. ALL of them have been near sexless. We did MC years 5 to 13 (I am slow on the uptake so it took a while before I caught on this problem would not abate). Quit when it was clear no MC could help us because we were both unwilling to change (slow to catch on that it was unresolvable too). There were periods of wild overspending on her part during MC. Decimated our finances. Which is another reason to stay. Now that we no longer fight about sex, her spending problem is in remission. Another reason to keep our marriage sexless.

This is not "difficult times" that will pass. There is no "golden age" of good sex to return to some day. This is how our marriage has always been. If I stay with H2, this is how it will always be. I know where the door is if I want to leave. I am simply unwilling to pay the price for the token that unlocks the door.



> I also hope that the 2nd half of your life will be much happier than the first.


Much farther along than halfway. That plays into my decisions. If I had married at 20 and was in my early 40s I might be only halfway done and might be willing to go start chapter 2. I am in my mid 50s and my kids are still in college. Not interested in change until they are done with school. That puts me at 60. Way more than halfway and not enough likely to be healthy years to be worth tearing the house down and rebuilding from scratch.


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## john117

I'll be 57 when my house of cards comes crashing. The thought has occurred to me that I'll be too old for this or that. 

Who cares?

At that stage of the game you're looking for a legacy. Why give the other person (that in a different set of circumstances would be called your spouse ) the last laugh?


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## Holdingontoit

John: H2 does not get the last laugh if we stay together. I do. She thinks she is getting what she wants. In fact, she is giving up any chance of getting that if she stays. So am I. But I believe I have no chance of getting it either way, whereas she most likely could get it by leaving.

No one on earth will convince me that it is possible for me to find a happier life by leaving. I lived with me pre-marriage. I wasn't happy at 5 or 15 or 25. I was only marginally less happy during the worst years with Mrs. Hold. I am happier now than I was then. I am not giving this up.

The rest of you who have known happiness cannot imagine staying where I am. I have never known happiness, so I can't imagine going out into the world alone in search of a mythological creature that I am convinced does not exist. You will never convince me it exists because the reality you live in is not the reality inside my head.

And that is where happiness and despair live. In between my ears. There is no happiness in there. Not because of H2's behavior. But because of my choices and my genetics and my brain chemistry. You can scream all you want that with exercise or therapy or meds my brain chemistry will change. And that without the influence of H2's behavior happiness will appear between my ears unbidden. But I know to the depths of my soul that you are wrong. I will squelch any spark of happiness before it can catch fire. I will do that to me. Again and again. Every minute of every day until my last dying breath. I can't help it. I don't want to.

That is why I say that my punishment imposed on H2 in return for the way she duped me is to stay with her. To convince her to stay with me despite my depression and my pessimism and my "glass is half full" outlook. No matter how well I treat her on a daily basis, my negativism robs her of a portion of the joy she would otherwise feel in life. Just as her denying me sex robbed me of whatever fleeting joy I might have experienced if she had consented. It is a fitting and just punishment. I am astonished that she is willing to accept it and serve out her sentence. But I am never going to grant clemency. If she wants out, she has to pay the price. Just as I do. Fair and balanced.

I am not the one you should feel sorry for. She is.


----------



## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: I never said I was satisfied. I said I was a seething ball of frustration. Still, I have found a place of repose. I don't like it here. But I like most places in the immediate vicinity less. I don't have the guts to traverse the bad regions to get someplace better. Simple as that.
> 
> Most people don't get to my place because they have the guts and the good sense to divorce before they get here. I think you find my story compelling because it hits fairly close to home. If you don't want to end up here, you may well have to go to Plan D. I can understand why you hesitate to pull that pin. But realize there is a good chance you will end up living in my neighborhood if you don't.


yep, I am definitely paying attention to what you're describing and it is frightening.

I think our situations are similar in the sense that I have continued to beat my head against the wall long past the point of reasonableness.

but I have been happy for most of my life. I am actually still pretty happy now despite it all. Definitely am happier now than I was a couple of years ago. Yet my marriage is not any better.

My take away is that I don't have to let a sh-tty marriage destroy my life. My life is much bigger than this marriage.

Would I like to have a better marriage? Sure. But the fact that I don't is not going to destroy me.

It doesn't have to destroy you either unless you let it.


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## john117

Exactly - and I'm not too worried about happiness but more about sanity.


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## Justinian

Anon1111 said:


> Yep, I am definitely paying attention to what you're describing and it is frightening.


What I find a little frightening is that Holdingontoit's position is actually starting to make some sense to me.

I'm also reminded of Will Roger's quote:

“Most men are about as happy as they make up their minds to be.”


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## Holdingontoit

John: See, that is where I have an advantage over you. In my case sanity left the building a long time ago. I am aiming more for functionality. When I am fighting with H2 over sex I am less productive in all areas of human endeavor. Now that sex is completely off the table I am less distracted and more productive. Hope would reduce my capacity. I am far more comfortable enduring despair than hope. Despair soothes. Hope burns.


----------



## Steve1000

Holdingontoit said:


> This is not "difficult times" that will pass. There is no "golden age" of good sex to return to some day. This is how our marriage has always been. If I stay with H2, this is how it will always be. I know where the door is if I want to leave. I am simply unwilling to pay the price for the token that unlocks the door.
> 
> 
> I am in my mid 50s and my kids are still in college. Not interested in change until they are done with school. That puts me at 60. Way more than halfway and not enough likely to be healthy years to be worth tearing the house down and rebuilding from scratch.


Point taken that these difficult times have been long-lasting and that you are not expecting life to become much better. That said, it seems like your wife enjoys going to places with you and that you are at least are friends who care about each other. I still wish that whatever remains in your life to be better than what you have experienced thus far. If you have accepted your life for what it is, that is an improvement over feeling great disappointment and loneliness.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Steve: Thanks for the warm wishes. Yes, H2 and I are finally friends. We were enemies for many years and it feels nice to be able to be friends. I am glad I can support her through her cancer. Yes, I think that she very much enjoys spending time with me now that "dates" do not end with me expecting a good night kiss. 

I do care about her. She is the mother of my children. We have passed through the period where I worried that she would leave and find another man who would get to raise my kids (and yes, I have genetic confirmation they are mine). Now that chapter is "locked in" and I feel more secure. And my being proud of my parenting does not trigger her "danger" sense as pride in other things might.

Yes, I was very lonely for much of my life. Including the majority of my marriage. Now that sex is off the table I feel less lonely. She is far more affectionate. She pursues me more than I pursue her. It feels much better.


----------



## Holdingontoit

OK, I think I am now able to pull this all together. Justinian, you better not read any further because it might totally make sense and then you should be very very afraid. 

I do like getting along better with H2. But I can't get all the way to "let go and be happy" because then she "wins". If I am financially successful and we get along well and I let go of the resentment and allow myself to love her completely and we still don't have sex then she duped me, and she got everything she wanted, and both of us know it. I find that outcome intolerable. She can't get EVERYTHING she wanted but I still don't get sex.

I know that might be the best outcome. Might be what makes me happiest. And that a sane rational person might work toward that outcome as being in their own self-interest. But I cannot bring myself to go there.

So I feel obliged to work toward an outcome in which she does not get everything she wants. She gets a pleasant husband who generally treats her well, compliments her frequently, supports her, spends time with her, pays attention when she wants to discuss what is on her mind, etc. She gets the no sex. But I hold onto the resentment. So while I treat her lovingly almost all the time. She knows there is still a part of me that resents having to give up sex and is not happy to be married to her. I care about her. But some part of me is held back. Just as she held back part of herself from me.

Even. Balance. Fair.


----------



## ThePheonix

My take is H2, is, has, and/or will be getting her some on the side. I used to be the guy these women did it with and paid me for it. I expect the only one in your marriage doing without is you my man. Don't give me no shyt about it ain't happening. Most my past clients' husbands used to think the same thing. (at least those who didn't approve of the arrangement.)
Are you be chance related to CopperTop?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Good for you Phoenix. Maybe H2 is. Maybe not. I think she has the good sense not to tell me.

You guys got me thinking maybe we should try again. So when Mrs. Hold offered, I did not reject her. Got it up. Got the condom on. Lost erection shortly after getting inside her. We'll try again in 6 months after the chemo when we won't have to use a condom. She continues to assert there is nothing I can do with fingers or tongue to bring her any pleasure. I don't see much point in our trying to have sex. Leaves me feeling humiliated. But at least that makes it so much easier to go without.

You can't go halvsies. All in or all out. I need to stay all out on sex.


----------



## ThePheonix

Yep, you should have ended it when you got back to the USA. But, like you, I kept believing in vows, better or worse, marriage involves work; just not as long. 
Reading your opening post almost convinced me you married my ex wife; but the timing is off. Her crap got me into the trade I did for ten years. I ended that second career shortly after meeting my current wife. You need to try a second wife my man. The right one makes all the difference. And when you have the right one, marriage doesn't take a lot of work. But hey, without the experience I may not have known how to handle myself with this one. What I try to pass on to young men is if it doesn't come easy, let it go and let it go early. You can't the momentum of a woman with a low romantic interest.


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## Holdingontoit

Phoenix: No woman would pay to have sex with me. There will never be wife #2.

Mrs. Hold feels bad that I cannot enjoy sex with her anymore. Fair, even and balanced wins again.


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## ThePheonix

They pay to spend time with someone who treats them special, like having facials, pedicures, massages, etc . Most women can get sex anywhere. Never say never my man. You can't judge all of them by the iceburg/harpy you married. The right one is worth it. I'd likely be dead if mine didn't come along.


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## Holdingontoit

I'm a masochist. I have created the perfect little hell for myself. Why would I want to change anything about this?

I had no trouble getting up, putting on the condom, entering her. Then boom, deflates like someone pushed a button. It is obvious that my difficulty is entirely psychological. This is clearly what I want subconsciously. Just the thought "what am I doing?" and little willie won't go.

My wife has been trying to boost my ego last night and today so I won't feel like a failure. Much too little, much too late. No gal wants to be married to a guy who considers himself a failure. Ah well, I wanted to be married to a woman who enjoyed the sensations of having sex with me. You can't always get what you want.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Spent yesterday in hospital while H2 had port inserted under her skin. Chemo needle goes into the port so they don't keep poking holes in her arteries (veins?).So she is now officially bionic!

First chemo treatment today. I will go to the clinic and hold her hand. If she wants me to. Otherwise will sit in room nearby and do work emails.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> I'm a masochist. I have created the perfect little hell for myself. Why would I want to change anything about this?
> 
> I had no trouble getting up, putting on the condom, entering her. Then boom, deflates like someone pushed a button. It is obvious that my difficulty is entirely psychological. This is clearly what I want subconsciously. Just the thought "what am I doing?" and little willie won't go.
> 
> My wife has been trying to boost my ego last night and today so I won't feel like a failure. Much too little, much too late. No gal wants to be married to a guy who considers himself a failure. Ah well, I wanted to be married to a woman who enjoyed the sensations of having sex with me. You can't always get what you want.


You tried having sex last night?

Tell us more about this. Did you initiate or did she, etc?


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## ThePheonix

Holding my man, you ain't one of these cats that's embarrassed and disappointed if you do something right, are you? Some folks I've met can't do everything right so they choose to do nothing right. Therefore they still find perfection in what they do.


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## Holdingontoit

UMP: She initiated. I took 100 mg Viagra and did some snuggling. As usual she is completely uninterested in foreplay because "nothing does anything for her". So probably moved on to the "main event" too soon for the Viagra to kick in. Lord knows I got the headache and blue tinged vision later on, so it eventually worked. But too late for our session.

Next session will likely be in 6 months when the chemo and radiation treatments are over. Unless she magically feels good some Sunday morning between now and then and decides to initiate again. If so, I will certainly wait a while after taking the pill before getting down to business.

Phoenix: I am so majorly messed up there is no single way to describe my lunacy. I use my amazing academic gifts to cover up for my depression, ADHD, etc. Do I seek failure to pre-empt it? Maybe. After half a dozen lengthy attempts at therapy over several decades and prescriptions for all sorts of meds I have long since given up on trying to figure myself out. My only life goal is to keep my job long enough to get the kids through college. 

I'm old and don't have near enough saved to retire but am not taking any steps to cure that imbalance. I figure if we don't have enough money to live well in retirement it serves my wife right for spending all our savings on fixing up house #1 and then running up such huge credit card bills that we needed all the profit from selling the house to pay off the cards. My wife was going to get a full time job to help out financially when the kids got to college but then the cancer hit so that went out the window. So exactly what is it I am supposed to be trying to accomplish? We don't have sex. I don't have any money and trust me no woman is going to find me attractive without lots of it. So I will muddle through the next few years, get my kids through college and pay for it (we are borrowing so that will take a bunch of years to repay - especially if H2 can't find a full time job) and consider that a job well done. I have no other ambitions.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Did the first chemo. Got her hair cut short to pre-empt big clumps of long hair falling out. She feels OK but they say it is cumulative so the weeks after the last treatment are the worst. Still, 1 down and 15 more to go. Then on to radiation treatments!

Good news is she found some wigs and head scarves she likes.


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## ThePheonix

Gonna be a long road you're on my man. I wish ya'll the best and whatever you believe, may God be with you.


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## Holdingontoit

Thanks Phoenix. Been on this road for 23 years. Gave up on it getting better over 10 years ago. Getting much easier over time to deal with it.


----------



## Holdingontoit

H2 feeling nauseous and depressed. Only 1 week into 6 months of chemo. Trying to keep her spirits up. Good news is she has many friends who check up on her frequently. She keeps thanking me for being so helpful. Wish I felt better about that. But it is my choice so I need to handle my business.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Wife going to first cancer patient support group tonight. Should be interesting to hear how she reacts.


----------



## farsidejunky

Praying for your family, brother.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Did a wonderful hike Sunday. Lead to a rock ledge overlooking a lake. Sat in the sun admiring the fall foliage on the hillside across the lake. Like a dream come true to have my beautiful smart competent wife sitting next to me, wanting to be with me and share the moment.


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## Holdingontoit

We are traveling this weekend to parent's Weekend to visit D18. H2 suggested we take a single large suitcase because she does not want to have to roll a carryon through the airport. Yesterday I texted her that I was taking a carryon but I would roll both bags from the airport to the rental car.

H2 got home from a night out with a girlfriend and exploded at me about the carryon. How she had this plan and she wouldn't have to roll anything and I went ahead and packed a carryon and now her plan is ruined. She was in a pissy mood the rest of the night. Lucky it was late so I just told her I was sorry she was upset and wished her good night and went to sleep.

See, this is a big reason why I don't intend to have sex with her anymore. Because she gets in pissy moods fairly frequently and I do not know how to help her get herself out of them. But now that we aren't having sex, I don't care nearly as much about her mood swings.

In the bad old days I would be a wreck now. Because she is in a pissy mood and we are travelling. Staying in a hotel room all weekend. I would be thinking that maybe we could have sex in the hotel and I would know that it isn't going to happen and I would be upset. Now, it doesn't bother me nearly as much. I am not happy that she is in a pissy mood, but I am not incapacitated by co-dependence. I hope she snaps out of it and realizes a carryon bag is no big deal but if not, well, I'll have a great time with D18 and H2 will be however she is.

I realize this is all about my inability to remain detached when sex is an ongoing possibility. And my inability to ignore her moods and their impact on sexual frequency. If I were stronger and more in control then I could handle her moods and have sex. But I can't. So if I have to choose, I would rather take sex off the table and not be impacted by her moods. Plus, she sees me as more attractive when I am not reacting to her moods. So we get along better. She is more affectionate. It works out all around.

Not as well as if I could learn to stand tall even when we are having infrequent sex. But better than when I am a reactive co-dependent mess.


----------



## john117

If her moods impact you alone that's fine. But they generally impact everyone - her among them. The more she rages the more she will consider it the steady state.

Sex or no sex is irrelevant. If she can't self regulate her moods to the extent needed to have a normal life she needs serious help.


----------



## Holdingontoit

John: That is why we are a perfect match. I can't regulate my moods either. At least not when sex might be on the table. That is why I stopped initiating sex. So I could more easily regulate my moods.

H2 and I both need serious help. Neither of us intends to get it. That is why the rest of the world is best off if we stay together. 2 less potential victims than if H2 and I were free agents.


----------



## Holdingontoit

H2 is getting more chemo today. Wishing her well.


----------



## Holdingontoit

H2 doing OK after the chemo. As expected, her hair is falling out. She has scarves and a wig and rocks them.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Any updates?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Thanks for asking. Good recovery from last treatment. Her hair is shaved but her wig is gorgeous. Next treatment is Monday. Long road to go but so far she is holding up well.

Other than sex we have never gotten along better. She appreciates my support and has been more complimentary and affectionate than before. Wish I had been capable of totally abandoning sex years ago. So far the best part of getting older is not being so horny and becoming impotent, which makes tis much easier for me. Also, much easier to go without sex when your wife has cancer than when she is completely healthy.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Nice Halloween. Dinner and a movie. On the way home we heard our wedding song on the radio (very rare occurrence). She smiled and stroked my cheek. Very atypical for her. I guess when you don't have to fear that your husband will interpret affection as an offer of sex then you are free to be more affectionate.


----------



## Holdingontoit

3 treatments down. 38 more to go.


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## Holdingontoit

Recovery from treatment #3 not going well. Bllod count still down. She is understandably not looking forward to treatment #4 next week. But lucky that is the last of this chemical formula and maybe the next batch won't be as bad.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Thanks for asking.

Her morale is trending down as the treatment continue and she feels worse and it is still a very long way from being done. She is used to being self-reliant and she hates being dependent. My morale is fine because I am used to not getting my needs met so her being physically unable to do things actually makes it easier for me. Now at least there is a reason why she can't be there for me. And I am a martyr so it turns me on to be able to cater to her without getting much back in return. So this works for me.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Finished the final round of the first batch of chemicals. On to second batch of chemicals in 2 weeks. Then radiation. Slow and steady progress.


----------



## Feck

Hey Holding--I know you from another site. Been reading your posts for over a decade. Over the years I've Googled you and found a lot of info about you. Even found pictures of you and your wife. She's not as bad as you make her out to be physically.

Anyway, first off I'm really really sorry that Mrs. Hold is ill. That sucks completely. I wish for her a complete recovery.

But what sucks even worse is you haven't changed in over a decade. Even longer, like 13 years. Still so goddamned frustrating to read your self loathing posts. (By the way, I'm willing to offer you any
info about me. I'm the guy in California that suggested perhaps you get some fun on the side and relieve your wife of the duty.)

At one point maybe 4-5 years ago it seemed like you had turned a corner. But still here you are.

Why do you post? What are you looking for? You've wasted countless hours on these sites. And yes, I do mean "wasted". You've gained absolutely no perspective on yourself.

Entire nations have been built in the time you've navel-gazed over your sad-sack situation.

Well, here's to you my hopeless friend. It's good to see you. Nice to see some things never change. You wouldn't believe how my situation has turned around.
I've been ecstatically happy in the past decade. Very, very content.

Just thought I'd say hello. 

Feck


----------



## Holdingontoit

Hey EZ. I agree with everything you have posted except the part about my wife being "not as bad as I made her out to be". I never made her out to be anything less than gorgeous and my ideal woman physically. That is what made it so difficult when she kept turning me down.

Thanks for the well wishes for my wife.

What am I trying to accomplish? Come on, if you have been reading my posts from the "beginning" then you must know my plans. Which, as you predict, do not involve me changing or ever being happy. But I did take your advice in one respect: I have relieved my wife of any obligation or responsibility to do her "duty".

Glad you have been happy and content. Hoping it continues. All the best.


----------



## Feck

You do recall-- nice! And thank you for the sentiments.

I have lately thought of you, wondering how you're doing. Last I read, you and Mrs hold seemed to be making sound progress.

It's all rather moot anyway until mrs Hold makes a full recovery.

I will continue to read your posts.


----------



## WorkingWife

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon: Do I know you from somewhere else?
> 
> I have done therapy and taken A-D meds many times over the decades. Starting when I was 17 and on and off every decade or so. No treatment ever made any difference (except some of the A-D meds caused weight gain and rendered me anorgasmic). Every time they announce a new A-D med I think about going back, but I am skeptical anything would work. Which I know is partly the depression talking but partly the result of decades of trying and failing. I really think if anything might work it is ECT but the risk of memory problems rules that out for me. I have a wife and 2 kids to support, not enough money saved to retire and I cannot risk a treatment that could render me unable to work at my current position. I would be willing to try ECT after I retire. Oh wait, I forgot, at the pace we are on I will never be able to afford to retire.
> 
> Long winded way of saying I have no intention of "tackling" my depression. I don't believe anything worth trying is going to work, and I don't enjoy the side effects.
> 
> By the time we are done paying for D18's college I will be too old to consider blowing things up and starting over.
> 
> H2 is becoming a better partner lately. On the physical side, she frequently reaches for my hand at night or when we are out walking. She occasionally initiates snuggle sessions. She is even willing to consent to sex from time to time. Now I am the one who "refuses" by refraining from initiating even when she sends signals she would be willing to consent. On the financial side, she is becoming more aware. Years ago she justified her overspending by telling herself "H is super smart and will eventually earn enough to pay this off". Now she sees that I am never going to earn that much and we need to cut down on spending. She saw it impact where the kids go to college and she hates that (I warned her 14 years ago that might be the case but she did not believe me). She sees that there will be no retirement for me and no travel for her if we do not cut down our spending. So while she is by no means frugal she is finally recognizing that there is no money tree in the back yard and my earning power is limited and she needs to tighten her belt. She is even looking for a full time job so she can generate more spending money for herself now that I have to deflect her "allowance" toward paying for college.
> 
> Things are slowly improving. Well, as long as you count not fighting over sex because I have yielded the field to her as "improvement" (I get so ashamed of my impotence that I refuse to have sex). But there is more affection. She is getting better on the financial side. And lately she smiles when I compliment her, instead of frowning and accusing me of just trying to get into her pants. So the day to day is better than back when we were fighting over sex and locking horns over her constant overspending.
> 
> You might want me to press for even more. I am simply unwilling to do so.


This is so sad. I really feel for you.

Were you depressed before you married your wife? (I'm wondering if she is the cause of your depression and you've just been with her so long you think that is how life feels for you.)


----------



## Holdingontoit

WW: Depressed long before I met my wife. First attempt at therapy was at age 17. Married at age 31. H2 is not the originating cause of my depression, but I fear my time with her has rendered it permanent.


----------



## Holdingontoit

H2 on to second chemical. Did first treatment. We won't know if she gets lucky or unlucky on side effects until the 3rd treatment. Wish us luck.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Great weekend with H2. Lots of affection and adoring looks. Should have given up entirely on sex long ago.


----------



## NotEasy

Holdingontoit said:


> Great weekend with H2. Lots of affection and adoring looks. Should have given up entirely on sex long ago.


Ok, maybe I am a bit slow, but I don't get this. Has your desired outcome changed?

Earlier you said she is now she is sick she is dependent on you, and you were OK with supporting her with no expectation of affection or sex. Indeed it seemed that you wanted sex to be off the table.

This post sounds like you're saying "now that I have stopped chasing/asking/whining she is interested". It is sort of No More Mr Nice Guy stuff, which I thought you had previously tried unsuccessfully, but I might be mis-remembering. This post seems to say after you took sex off the table, she is now putting it back on the table, and you are happy with that.

And I am not trying to correct you, merely to understand you. I follow this thread because after over 200 posts I still cannot decide if I agree or disagree with you, and I like that.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Sex is NOT back on the table. Holding hands and fully clothed hugging are on the table. Back when we had infrequent sex, there was very little hugging or holding hands. Now we have no sex but lots of holding hands and hugs. I like this better. Holding hands and hugs and adoring looks just about every day beats lousy sex once or twice a month (and often even less frequently).


----------



## NotEasy

Thanks that cleared it up. Still can't decide if agree or disagree, but that is my problem, and I probably wouldn't find this thread so interesting if I could decide.

You are choosing an outcome that seems to make both of you happy, and it is the best outcome that you can reasonably expect to achieve. So I agree and approve.

You are not choosing what I consider the optimal outcome. So I disagree. I think that secretly you wish sex was back on the table, but maybe that is me projecting. Wish I could offer some great technique or advice to open up better possibilities.

We all, so often, choose sub-optimal outcomes. You are closer to the situation than us and understand it better. I need to re-read this thread again.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Hoping for the best that your wife makes a full recovery from breast cancer.

I've read the whole thread, and the only reason thing I can conclude from this is that the depression stems from the fact that there is something that the OP cannot change no matter how much talking he does with a therapist nor the psychiatric drugs he may take. That unchangeable thing may be a mental diagnosis that can only be managed (bipolar, aspergers, ADHD, etc), a traumatic event that occurred that cannot be undone (child abuse, infidelity, etc) or a physical condition that is stuck with you because that is how you were born. OP stated he has ADHD, but seems to be a very high functioning adult who can hold an excellent job...so that's out. I don't recall either way if there was a traumatic event in the OP's life - no infidelity I'm guessing because he was never married prior and I don't get the sense that his childhood was traumatic...so I'm guessing this one is out.

That leaves the physical. For only a few posts in this entire thread, the OP has complained that he has a small penis, and it appears that he has had negative feedback about it from his wife and maybe prior GFs? It's the only thing that I can think of that makes sense for why he would have an incurable depression that started before his marriage and why a wife who claimed to have prior experience with players and "bad boys" - and likely passionate and wild sex in her past - treated the OP like garbage. OP's wife then didn't like foreplay because 1) OP lacked confidence because he had a small unit and 2) the wife did think she would get the pleasure from PIV sex. All of this is just a guess on my part, but it appears to center around a small penis. 

If the small penis was the primary problem in the end, wouldn't it have been reasonable to look into surgery to fix a small penis? I know there are risks to doing that and it's not a common thing, but especially at this stage of the game, wouldn't looking into something like this be the thing the OP ultimately needs?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Definitely mental issue that I do not believe is amenable to treatment. Well, I suspect it might be treatable by ECT or TMS but ECT has huge risk of side effects and TMS is not covered by insurance and far too expensive given my current level of debt. Which is dumb because if the TMS worked I could earn back the cost in 1 or 2 years of good performance. But I lack the confidence to undergo the treatment in the hope I "blossom". Basically, I don't want to be cured badly enough to try the kinds of treatment that might work. Stupid but entirely understandable. I mean, plenty of people smoke, eat unhealthy foods, don't exercise, etc. Not shocking that I resist treatment despite the clear knowledge that my condition is reducing my quality of life.

I have gotten to a point where I get more from my marriage than I used to get. Am I getting everything I want? No. Then again, almost no one gets everything they want out of life. I have many blessings and I choose to stay in this place rather than try for better and risk ending up worse off.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Nice week. Plenty of hand holding. Keeping sex off the table allows H2 to feel safe with me. We still have months left of chemo and radiation. Then likely additional surgery to fix the cosmetic stuff that was not done last summer. So maybe a year or more until H2 is physically in position to initiate. Gives us plenty of time to get along before she is tempted to explore whether I really mean it that sex is off the table. No reason to borrow trouble wondering how I would react. We'll see if and when it happens.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Another nice week. Pleasant holiday with the kids. Should have given up on sex entirely when we stropped MC 10 years ago.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Did something yesterday that ticked off H2. As usual, she sent me to the dog house all day and was cool again this morning. Amazing how much less I care now that we no longer have sex. Not that I am happy she doesn't want to talk, doesn't want to hold my hand, etc. I like holding her hand even now that we aren't having sex. But the difference is that now she seems to mind us being disconnected as much as I mind it. Before she knew I would come crawling back sniffing around for sex. Now she knows that she doesn't have the same magnetic pull over me that she used to have. Should be interesting to see how long it takes for the ice to melt. In the past if I did not come crawling back she could give me the cold shoulder for weeks. I am guessing things will warm up sooner now that she can't rely on my horniness to eventually draw me back under her thumb.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Did something yesterday that ticked off H2. As usual, she sent me to the dog house all day and was cool again this morning. Amazing how much less I care now that we no longer have sex. Not that I am happy she doesn't want to talk, doesn't want to hold my hand, etc. I like holding her hand even now that we aren't having sex. But the difference is that now she seems to mind us being disconnected as much as I mind it. Before she knew I would come crawling back sniffing around for sex. Now she knows that she doesn't have the same magnetic pull over me that she used to have. Should be interesting to see how long it takes for the ice to melt. In the past if I did not come crawling back she could give me the cold shoulder for weeks. I am guessing things will warm up sooner now that she can't rely on my horniness to eventually draw me back under her thumb.


Actually, 
I think she "minds" much more than you do. In her situation, your emotional connection is really all she has. IMO you have the upper hand in this scenario. I must commend you on how attentive you are to your wife. Please do not come crawling back to her. Not to be crass, but let her crawl to you. It might give you an advantage with the sex if and when it comes back!


----------



## Holdingontoit

I am definitely not crawling back. That is the wondrous change here. And frankly I think she likes this change in me even if she isn't sure whether I am serious about NEVER having sex with her again and even if she isn't sure whether that would be a "good thing".


----------



## Holdingontoit

Great week with D18 and at a work conference. Seeing H2 tonight for 1st time in a week. Will be interesting to see how I feel around her.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Nice week with H2 and MIL. Got a warmer reception upon my return than was typical the first 23 years of our marriage. Even more reason to keep sex off the agenda even after H2 recovers.


----------



## Holdingontoit

InT: Thanks for the empathy.

D18 is having a tough time this semester. Causing H2 additional stress. H2 very appreciative of my support for both her and the kids. H2 tried to show her appreciation by allowing me to have some sort of sexual contact. Not sure exactly what she was planning because I shot her down when she started to go for it.

H2 continues to treat me better than she ever did before. Warmer. More affectionate. She finds me confusing which is understandable. I don't share my inner world with her. It would push her away rather than bring us closer together. And I would rather bask in a false glow than work through a harsh reality.

I do care for her. Just how I am wired, I guess. Sometimes I wish I didn't. I am sure at times she felt the same way. I often tease her "you did not realize you could love anyone this much, did you?" And she agrees she never expected to love anyone as much as she loves me. And it terrifies her. As well it should. When I loved her that much she tore my heart to pieces. It is scary making yourself that vulnerable. I take my responsibility to her very seriously. I owe her to treat her lovingly no matter how I feel. She has reposed her trust in me. And I will live up to that trust. Because that is who I am. I will do it for me.

When we got married, she thought she was marrying "well" because of my education and intelligence and she figured I was going to make a ton of money. I don't make what she expected, but still she did marry well. Just not in the way she figured. Always better to be lucky than smart.


----------



## Holdingontoit

H2 starting to realize she is likely going to survive her cancer. Now she is bored and lonely at night when I am at work and wishes I would come home earlier. May become an issue when she starts feeling well enough to go out. For now we have radiation to do after the last chemo next week. Then second round of reconstruction surgery. Then months of recovery from that. So this is not an imminent problem. I guess some guys would be glad their wife wants them home early. Guess I feel the way she feels about my wanting to have sex.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> InT: Thanks for the empathy.
> 
> D18 is having a tough time this semester. Causing H2 additional stress. H2 very appreciative of my support for both her and the kids. H2 tried to show her appreciation by allowing me to have some sort of sexual contact. Not sure exactly what she was planning because I shot her down when she started to go for it.


Can you be a bit more detailed regarding what happened?
Why do you think she initiated sexual contact with you?
Why did you turn her down?


----------



## Holdingontoit

UMP: 
1. No.
2. I have given up trying to read her mind. That is a big part of the appeal of giving up sex entirely. Now I don't have to monitor and analyze and attempt to figure out how she feels and why. I can just be me.
3. I don't want to give her the satisfaction of helping to bring me to orgasm and feeling that she has done her wifely duty and provided sex to her husband. I can give myself orgasms. Sex is about being interactive. If she isn't going to interact and is just going to lie there then I would prefer not to engage at all.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> UMP:
> 1. No.
> 2. I have given up trying to read her mind. That is a big part of the appeal of giving up sex entirely. Now I don't have to monitor and analyze and attempt to figure out how she feels and why. I can just be me.
> 3. I don't want to give her the satisfaction of helping to bring me to orgasm and feeling that she has done her wifely duty and provided sex to her husband. I can give myself orgasms. Sex is about being interactive. If she isn't going to interact and is just going to lie there then I would prefer not to engage at all.


Regarding #3. Did you explain #3 to her, just like you explained it to me? If not, next time you should. Tell her like it is.

Providing she is recovering and can emotionally handle the talk with you.


----------



## MarriedTex

UMP said:


> Regarding #3. Did you explain #3 to her, just like you explained it to me? If not, next time you should. Tell her like it is.
> 
> Providing she is recovering and can emotionally handle the talk with you.


When she is strong enough to have such an emotional discussion, exactly what would be the downside to putting that on the table? The kindest thing you can do for her is to just lay it on the line.


----------



## Holdingontoit

See, you guys are trying to encourage me to have a healthy relationship with my wife. I tried that for 13 years. 5 on my own. 8 with the assistance of marriage counselors and sex therapists. I don't like the end point that an open and honest conversation would point to. In part because I am not willing to do the work required of me and clean up my side of the street. In part because I expect that the odds of success are quite low and I do not want to end up divorced. See, I am not willing to divorce over this. And I am dead set against saying anything to my wife that would encourage her to divorce me. So open and honest communication is not an option I am going to select. I did it for 8 years during marriage counseling and sex therapy and I got hammered and was a wreck. Now I keep my feelings to myself (just as she kept her feelings about sex to herself during the early years of our marriage). I am totally comfortable doing tit for tat. I am not trying to be happy or have a fulfilling marriage. I am just trying to stay married to my wife so I can live in my house and keep my kids family together and not pay alimony. I do not encourage anyone to make the same choices I am making but I am committed to continuing to make this choice. We get along better now than we ever did when there was conflict. Better even than before I initiated the conflict.

As I have said several times, I am posting here as a cautionary tale of what not to do. If you find yourself in a mismatched relationship, cure it early or get out soon. Do not linger hoping it will get better. You could end up where I am. And you do not want to be where I am.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Got a typical "you are tired go to sleep" welcome home last night. No hug. No kiss. Nothing. Got a more friendly welcome home this morning (she was willing to give me a fully clothed hug when I asked for it).

She seems very pleased with our marriage. I am very pleased I get to stay married. So it seems to be working as well as I can hope.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Got a typical "you are tired go to sleep" welcome home last night. No hug. No kiss. Nothing. Got a more friendly welcome home this morning (she was willing to give me a fully clothed hug when I asked for it).
> 
> She seems very pleased with our marriage. I am very pleased I get to stay married. So it seems to be working as well as I can hope.


How do you get by with zero sex?
How could she have the balls to divorce you if you ask for sex after you have faithfully taken care of her during her illness?
This is more like a prison than a marriage.

Some people do indeed like prison.

Here is what I'm worried about. You nurse her back to health. She feels great, cheats on you and then asks YOU for a divorce anyway.
Don't be shocked if this happens. It IS possible.

This scenario would add major insult to your injury and I don't want to see that happen to you!


----------



## Holdingontoit

UMP said:


> How do you get by with zero sex?


Easy. 2 major components.
1. Every time I get a sexual urge toward her, I tell myself that me having sex with her is - to her - me asking her to let me shove her face into a toilet bowl filled with excrement. That image kills off the urge.
2. I have an office job, stopped doing any exercise, and am tremendously out of shape. I can't get it up, even with Viagra. And I certainly can't perform sexually to any competent extent. The last few times we tried to have sex I was hugely embarrassed by my poor performance. So if thoughts of shoving her face into excrement don't kill off my urge, the thought of how piss-poor my performance will be destroy any remaining vestiges of desire.

Aren't you glad you asked? :wink2:



> How could she have the balls to divorce you if you ask for sex after you have faithfully taken care of her during her illness? This is more like a prison than a marriage.


Easy. She might come to view being stuck with me as a prison. She might not feel like spending the rest of her life in prison with me.



> Some people do indeed like prison.


Count me in.



> Here is what I'm worried about. You nurse her back to health. She feels great, cheats on you and then asks YOU for a divorce anyway.Don't be shocked if this happens. It IS possible.


Anything is possible. I try to do a good job of meeting her other needs (compliments, companionship, parenting our kids) so she feels there would be a big downside to divorce. Thankfully, it seems she truly does not desire sex rather than her simply not being attracted to me. So I don't think she is motivated to divorce me to go get a partner she wants to have sex with.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Easy. 2 major components.
> 1. Every time I get a sexual urge toward her, I tell myself that me having sex with her is - to her - me asking her to let me shove her face into a toilet bowl filled with excrement. That image kills off the urge.
> 2. I have an office job, stopped doing any exercise, and am tremendously out of shape. I can't get it up, even with Viagra. And I certainly can't perform sexually to any competent extent. The last few times we tried to have sex I was hugely embarrassed by my poor performance. So if thoughts of shoving her face into excrement don't kill off my urge, the thought of how piss-poor my performance will be destroy any remaining vestiges of desire.
> 
> Aren't you glad you asked? :wink2:
> 
> 
> 
> Easy. She might come to view being stuck with me as a prison. She might not feel like spending the rest of her life in prison with me.
> 
> 
> 
> Count me in.
> 
> 
> 
> Anything is possible. I try to do a good job of meeting her other needs (compliments, companionship, parenting our kids) so she feels there would be a big downside to divorce. Thankfully, it seems she truly does not desire sex rather than her simply not being attracted to me. So I don't think she is motivated to divorce me to go get a partner she wants to have sex with.


OK.
You have explained your situation very well.
If you ever want to talk we're here for you.


----------



## Tron

As depressing and pathetic as this may sound, I think this thread needs to be moved to the *Long Term Success in Marriage *forum. 

goddamn! did I really say that????? I think I just threw up.

They both seem to be getting exactly what they want out of the marriage and happy in their misery. 

H, I would suggest that you take some happy pills or try to lose some weight and get healthy, but I know you would just feign interest and do nothing about it.

Good luck to you!

Signing off this thread now.


----------



## NotEasy

Tron said:


> ...
> They both seem to be getting exactly what they want out of the marriage and happy in their misery.
> 
> ...


This thread fascinates me, largely because I can't figure out my opinion of it. Are they really getting what they want? But "happy in their misery" is a brilliant description.

Maybe start a "Long term endurance in marriage" forum. 

Maybe they are both happy and I am a stupid romantic trying to push my own ideals on others.


----------



## Holdingontoit

UMP: Please understand that I was not being snarky or dismissive in my response to you. I was being deadly serious.

I spent 20+ years fighting bitterly against the absence of sex, scheming how to get more sex, etc. Finally, I gave up trying to have more sex and devoted my attention to figuring out how to tolerate not having any sex. What I described to you is my "solution" on how to tolerate not having sex.

This "solution" depends in large part on my age, the reduction in my sex drive, the reduction in my capacity to have satisfying partner sex, etc. It would not have worked 10 or more years ago, because I was too horny and too physically capable. My physical decline helps me accept the lack of sex. Toxic shame at the thought of allowing any other woman to witness my inadequacy is a powerful motivation to stay faithful to my wife.

I understand that not many healthy and horny men would choose this path. I think they are wise and I am foolish. But having gone so far down this path I am not at all motivated to change course.

Hence Tron and NotEasy's reactions.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> UMP: Please understand that I was not being snarky or dismissive in my response to you. I was being deadly serious.
> 
> I spent 20+ years fighting bitterly against the absence of sex, scheming how to get more sex, etc. Finally, I gave up trying to have more sex and devoted my attention to figuring out how to tolerate not having any sex. What I described to you is my "solution" on how to tolerate not having sex.
> 
> This "solution" depends in large part on my age, the reduction in my sex drive, the reduction in my capacity to have satisfying partner sex, etc. It would not have worked 10 or more years ago, because I was too horny and too physically capable. My physical decline helps me accept the lack of sex. Toxic shame at the thought of allowing any other woman to witness my inadequacy is a powerful motivation to stay faithful to my wife.
> 
> I understand that not many healthy and horny men would choose this path. I think they are wise and I am foolish. But having gone so far down this path I am not at all motivated to change course.
> 
> Hence Tron and NotEasy's reactions.


I know you're completely serious. It is logical in a strange way.
Sometimes you just have to accept reality. 
For example. We have a 21 year old mentally handicapped child that will always have the mind of a 5 year old. She cannot ever be left alone.
We essentially have two options.

1. Take away all her assets and put her in a home. We can visit whenever we want to. The state will take care of her till she dies.
You would be SHOCKED at how many people do this.

2. Care for her till we die. Get enough life insurance and trustees that we trust to take care of her after we die along with help from the other two siblings. This means no vacations alone, ALWAYS with her 24\7. Some would freak at this option. In time, you just get used to it. Not to mention the fact that we do love her.

I understand your predicament. I just hope you don't get burned even more.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Thanks UMP.

I made it clear to Mrs. H that I have no plans to have sex with her ever again. she said "well, you are not allowed to have sex with anyone else, either." I clarified that I have no plans to have sex with anyone besides myself ever again. She is not pleased.

She complained at dinner that she feels isolated and alone. I told her that she creates walls around herself and then complains that she is alone inside the walls. She said she has to build walls because me and our kids are too weak to handle the additional stress. I told her I was insulted she would say that. The kids and I were very supportive when she was in the hospital and at home afterward and we would be as supportive as she needs if she would allow us. But she keeps everything to herself. She is skeptical that I could handle additional stress. I am not sure what additional stress she means. I kept doing all the laundry until she took it over because she felt guilty that I was working all day and then came home to do her housework.

She complains that she works so many hours at her part time job. I told her to take less hours. She said she needs to work so we can go on vacation. I offered to pay for the vacation. She said I am not enthusiastic enough and I would resent paying for the vacation. I said I feel bad for not being able to take more time off work for a longer vacation and inadequate for not being able to afford a fancier vacation, but I would pay for this next vacation since she is recovering from cancer and needs to relax and heal.

She said she isn't sure whether I treat her nicely because I love her or because I am a nice guy. I said a little of both. She said I don't act like I love her as much as before. I replied that she never liked the puppy dog nipping at her heels so I stopped being that puppy dog. I won't go back because I know she doesn't respect that behavior. She agreed that she did not like it when I was so subservient. I told her to stop judging me for being less available when she didn't like it when I pressured her for interaction. We can find a happy medium but she has to initiate some of the contact because I can't read her mind and know when she wants more interaction unless she tells me.

I feel like I cannot win. The good news is, now that I am not trying to have sex with her I don't care so much if I don't win. I am not missing out on much by not winning. She wanted a husband who was not so affected by her moods. Now she has that husband. She doesn't seem pleased with the changes. I am sure you can imagine how much sympathy I have.


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## UMP

WOW!
Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Sounds to me she is upset that you are not "trying" to have sex with her.

I DO think if you were able to get yourself a hard on, and try having sex with her, she sounds willing to me.

That decision is all up to you. I can only imagine the difficulty in getting your mojo back.

I will tell you this. She sounds like the type that STILL might leave you and actually might BLAME it all on you!

I do not like your position here.


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## Holdingontoit

She initiated several long hugs this morning. I used to have to beg her for a single hug and she would pull away after a fraction of a second. When we saw a sex therapist, hugging with clothes on was one of the exercises that Mrs. H refused to undertake. Man, I should have gone on a permanent sex holiday years ago.


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## NotEasy

Holdingontoit said:


> She initiated several long hugs this morning. I used to have to beg her for a single hug and she would pull away after a fraction of a second. When we saw a sex therapist, hugging with clothes on was one of the exercises that Mrs. H refused to undertake. Man, I should have gone on a permanent sex holiday years ago.


Half agree, half disagree. I think maybe she is attracted to your resolve. When was the last time you begged her for anything?

But in a sense, you saying no was the only way to safely show resolve. If you had said yes we are going to ..., against her strongly held intentions, that could have ended up as assault or rape.

And as I have said before, I follow this thread because I am trying to make up my mind (eg resolve my opinion), so what do I know.


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## Holdingontoit

EZ: No more begging. I ask once for whatever I want (which isn't much anymore). If she says no, I go watch tv or play Xbox.

Now she complains that I don't seek her out as much as I used to. So I asked her out on a date tonight. But she is meeting me near my office and I will go back to the office after dinner. That way I see the evening as relaxation time rather than romance time, and she doesn't have to worry that I will pressure her for sex when we get home - because we are not driving home together. Eliminates the awkward drive back and the awkward changing into sleepwear that used to accompany our date nights.


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## WorkingOnMe

It's a trap. She gets off on you chasing her and her telling you no. Since you stopped chasing, she's giving you just enough to get you to chase again. But once you make your move, she'll turn you down again. Maybe not the first time, but definitely the second.


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## MarriedTex

Be prepared for the inevitable conversation on this. Keep your responses short and sweet.

"Wife, I've experienced years and years of negative re-inforcement from you related to my desire for intimacy with you. I finally got the message. This is the way I am now. If you would like me to change, you have to tell me why you've changed your outlook - and back up those words with consistent action."

Then STFU


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## Holdingontoit

WonM: No worries, I will not chase her. I won't even consent when she chases me. I do not intend to give her a chance to turn me down because I do not intend to ask. Ever again.

MT: Good advice. What I told her the last time she asked was: I spent 20 years pursuing you and all it got me was my testicles sliced into pieces and served to me raw. At this point I'd just rather not go there.

Than I STFU. She was very friendly and affectionate last night so I guess she got over being insulted that I would describe our marriage that way.


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## WorkingOnMe

Holdingontoit said:


> I do not intend to give her a chance to turn me down because I do not intend to ask. Ever again.


Class, take note: This is what you call "seething resentment". I know it well.


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## Holdingontoit

WonM: Wait, wait, let me get this straight. I post that I view my marriage as 20 years of me having my balls sliced up and fed to me raw and you view the sentence where I indicate I no longer intend to initiate sex with this person as the place where my seething resentment spills out? :surprise:  :grin2:


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## WorkingOnMe

Lol I guess I thought sliced balls were a delicacy.


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## Holdingontoit

H2 started radiation today. Hoping and praying the side effects are not very harsh.


----------



## Holdingontoit

She had a scan yesterday and no lung cancer at this time. Yay!

Her skin feels like it is burning from radiation but that is to be expected.

We had a nice weekend together. Cuddled last night which I enjoyed. And zero arousal on my part. I like being able to enjoy a cuddle without feeling frustrated that it is not going "farther".


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## lifeistooshort

My father had lung cancer and radiation was the only thing that clearly did him any good.

Burning is normal.....I remember working through the equation that is behind the release of radiation used in treatment. There's always a lot of heat released in the nuclear reaction.

Kind of scary stuff on paper but can be highly effective on tumors. They're getting good at focusing it on the tumors and leaving the good tissue alone.


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## Holdingontoit

Today is "hump day" for radiation. 13 down and 12 to go.

Birthday and weekend with H2 were really nice. Lots of hand holding and smiles on her part. Wish our marriage had always been like this but can't go back. Can only make the best going forward.

H2 offered sexual favors on my birthday. I gently redirected her offer. We binge watched House of Cards on Netflix instead. Never thought I would get to a place where I would rather watch tv than have sex with my wife. But here we are.


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## NotEasy

So you past up birthday nookie. You're a better man than I, GungaDin. 

The logical part of my brain agrees with you. Your actions are entirely in keeping with what you planned and explained to her.

I think if I was in your place, other parts would have taken over from my brain. And if I remember your story correctly, it would not have ended well.

Part of me keeps screaming "NO, there must be another way". Perhaps you have another way in that holding hands and smiling is your equivalent of sex and intimacy.


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## john117

Sometimes there isn't a better way...


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## Holdingontoit

Sapienta: I am no saint. I am doing what I do for selfish reasons. If I thought satisfying sex was out there for me, and not simply more guilt and shame, I would go looking for a lover. If I want mutually satisfying sex, and not just the opportunity to use a woman as a masturbatory aid, then I would need to divorce my wife. Which I will not do because of financial issues and the impact on my children. Having made that decision, it makes sense for me to make he best of the situation. "Making the best of it" includes intentionally refraining from treating my ED and PE conditions, so as to guarantee that any sex session will be disappointing rather than satisfying. That isn't saintly or selfless. It is entirely self-interested. I want to live in my house and drive my car and travel to visit my children and go out to fancy restaurants more than I want to have sex. As someone else said, in an absolute sense I clearly don't have a very high sex drive. The words "permanent alimony" are enough to kill off my hard-on. For other men it would just be the price they have to pay. Se la vie.

And remember, I was just as selfish. When I was not making the kind of money she expected, I still expected her to stay married to me and not dump me for another guy with more money. And when I was subjecting her to lousy one-sided sex, I made the same statement to her: "no matter how disappointed you are with the sex we have, you aren't allowed to go have better sex with anyone else".

EaZe: Correct, it would not have gone well. And that is all inside my head.

For me, there is no better way. Work is going well and I make more today than I ever have before. I FINALLY make enough to pay my bills, something that has not been true for the past 21 years. The stress was enormous. As I said, my blood pressure is down significantly from last year. And I get zero exercise. You can't fake lower blood pressure. I have felt less stress since I gave up sex entirely. And it shows. 

I would not be happy divorced. I am NOT voluntarily going back to the financial stress of the past 21 years. I am not moving to a state with more favorable divorce laws so I can pay less alimony. I can't afford to retire as it is. If I give her the difference between her 401(k) and mine it becomes doubly impossible. And if you suggest "but then you would be free to find another woman who has her own money and would be willing to have mutually satisfying sex with you", well, to me that sounds like you are trying to sell me ocean front land in Wyoming. Again, in my own head. But that is the world view that drives my decisions. There is no way anyone will convince me to change that view.

John: Better varies from person to person. Is there a way I could get more and better sex? Yes. Could I get that and keep my money and my children's family intact? No. Is this "better"? For me it is. for others, YMMV.


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## Anon1111

maybe you're both just OK people who somehow ended up together without really being compatible sexually and for whatever reason tried to swim against that tide for far too long. 

maybe you can just relax now and accept that that is not what your relationship is really all about.


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## john117

Or that you have no relationship other than familiarity.

That's where I am at least.


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## Anon1111

yeah, you don't really have to have a relationship with anybody.

you're free to invest as much as you want.

the realization that you control the volume knob means you can dispense with the hatred too.


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## Holdingontoit

A post that really hit me on another thread was "this is like that". I am not going to be a professional athlete or a pop music idol. Long since accepted that reality. Well, I am not going to have a satisfying sex life either. This is like that.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> A post that really hit me on another thread was "this is like that". I am not going to be a professional athlete or a pop music idol. Long since accepted that reality. Well, I am not going to have a satisfying sex life either. This is like that.


If you can be satisfied with this scenario, I say more power to ya.
Reading your last few posts I can see that you have more peace of mind than you did before AND it seems that you are "wearing the pants" in your family.

I respect you for making a decision, sticking to it and learning to be content with the inevitable outcome.

As I said before, "I salute you!"


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## Holdingontoit

Only 1 week of radiation left. H2 rethinking whether to have more reconstruction. It has been 10 months and I think she is getting tired of being a patient. She likes not having to wear a bra. And I think it is sinking in that I don't intend ever to have sex with her again, so it doesn't matter what her boobs look like or feel like because I won't be interacting with them. We have an appointment scheduled with the plastic surgeon in about 7 weeks. We shall see if she wants to go.


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## anonmd

On the one hand that makes sense, on the other it sounds rough.


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## Holdingontoit

Yes, having breast cancer is rough.


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## Holdingontoit

Tomorrow is her last radiation treatment. They have some sort of ceremony at the cancer hospital for being "done". Now we just have to wait 5 years and hope nothing new shows up.


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## Holdingontoit

You know how you microwave food for a few minutes, then let it sit on the counter and the food heats up more as the energy bounces around inside the food? That is what is happening to H2's chest. Stopped the zapping 2 weeks ago but the radiation is bouncing around inside her tissue causing her skin to cook. It looks grey and black liked cooked meat. Putting lots of cream and cooling gels on it to try to keep it from peeling off before new healthy skin can grow underneath it. Wish us luck.


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## farsidejunky

Damn, brother. Hard to fathom they have to poison her to save her. Prayers for your family.


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## Holdingontoit

Good news. A big piece of dead skin fell off yesterday and under it was pink new skin. Tender but dry. So no open wound or oozing. Hopefully the radiation level will gradually lower and the new skin won't die anytime soon.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon111 wrote that I have created an intricate prison for myself. And that I could easily escape.

Anon is correct, but he misses the point. Yes, of course I have created this prison. Yes, of course I could leave if I chose to. That is the point. I don't want to.

I get the idea that Anon thinks I SHOULD want to leave. That is where we disagree. I am quite comfortable here. I do not wish to leave. I may not be happy here. Anon thinks I could be happy somewhere else. Anon is incorrect.

I wasn't happy before I got married. I wasn't happy growing up despite comfort and a loving family and a great family dog. Anon thinks I could learn to be happy. Maybe. But that would require lots of work on my part. Work I am unwilling to do. That would involve disruption and things would undoubtedly get worse before they got better. And there is a risk they would get worse and not get better. That is a risk I am unwilling to take.

Maybe Anon thinks it is a risk worth taking. Maybe Anon thinks it is overwhelmingly likely I would eventually find happiness if I started striving for it. Maybe Anon thinks that living your entire life unhappy is intolerable. 

Thing is, I am not Anon. I know I will never be happy. With or without H2. I know I will never do the work required to get from here to happy. And I know that I can in fact live the rest of my life unhappy. 

That is what I am aiming for. And I have every confidence I will obtain it. See, that is all I really care about. Taking the sure thing. It doesn't matter to me if the sure thing is a bitter pill. I am so risk averse I would much rather take a lousy sure thing than put any effort into a riskier endeavor. I am not arguing it is a wise choice. Just explaining who I am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon111 wrote that I have created an intricate prison for myself. And that I could easily escape.
> 
> Anon is correct, but he misses the point. Yes, of course I have created this prison. Yes, of course I could leave if I chose to. That is the point. I don't want to.
> 
> I get the idea that Anon thinks I SHOULD want to leave. That is where we disagree. I am quite comfortable here. I do not wish to leave. I may not be happy here. Anon thinks I could be happy somewhere else. Anon is incorrect.
> 
> I wasn't happy before I got married. I wasn't happy growing up despite comfort and a loving family and a great family dog. Anon thinks I could learn to be happy. Maybe. But that would require lots of work on my part. Work I am unwilling to do. That would involve disruption and things would undoubtedly get worse before they got better. And there is a risk they would get worse and not get better. That is a risk I am unwilling to take.
> 
> Maybe Anon thinks it is a risk worth taking. Maybe Anon thinks it is overwhelmingly likely I would eventually find happiness if I started striving for it. Maybe Anon thinks that living your entire life unhappy is intolerable.
> 
> Thing is, I am not Anon. I know I will never be happy. With or without H2. I know I will never do the work required to get from here to happy. And I know that I can in fact live the rest of my life unhappy.
> 
> That is what I am aiming for. And I have every confidence I will obtain it. See, that is all I really care about. Taking the sure thing. It doesn't matter to me if the sure thing is a bitter pill. I am so risk averse I would much rather take a lousy sure thing than put any effort into a riskier endeavor. I am not arguing it is a wise choice. Just explaining who I am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My advice to you....start drinking heavily. :grin2:

Although a less risky alternative would be some medical marijuana.


----------



## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Anon111 wrote that I have created an intricate prison for myself. And that I could easily escape.
> 
> Anon is correct, but he misses the point. Yes, of course I have created this prison. Yes, of course I could leave if I chose to. That is the point. I don't want to.
> 
> I get the idea that Anon thinks I SHOULD want to leave. That is where we disagree. I am quite comfortable here. I do not wish to leave. I may not be happy here. Anon thinks I could be happy somewhere else. Anon is incorrect.
> 
> I wasn't happy before I got married. I wasn't happy growing up despite comfort and a loving family and a great family dog. Anon thinks I could learn to be happy. Maybe. But that would require lots of work on my part. Work I am unwilling to do. That would involve disruption and things would undoubtedly get worse before they got better. And there is a risk they would get worse and not get better. That is a risk I am unwilling to take.
> 
> Maybe Anon thinks it is a risk worth taking. Maybe Anon thinks it is overwhelmingly likely I would eventually find happiness if I started striving for it. Maybe Anon thinks that living your entire life unhappy is intolerable.
> 
> Thing is, I am not Anon. I know I will never be happy. With or without H2. I know I will never do the work required to get from here to happy. And I know that I can in fact live the rest of my life unhappy.
> 
> That is what I am aiming for. And I have every confidence I will obtain it. See, that is all I really care about. Taking the sure thing. It doesn't matter to me if the sure thing is a bitter pill. I am so risk averse I would much rather take a lousy sure thing than put any effort into a riskier endeavor. I am not arguing it is a wise choice. Just explaining who I am.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get that you are going through some hard times, so I don't want to pound on you (to the extent you really care what some anonymous guy on the internet thinks, which is doubtful...)

Anyway, I think there are way too many assumptions in what you wrote above that have no basis.

1. the idea that you are the same person that you were when you were younger. you're obviously not. you've figured some big stuff out about yourself. you could figure more stuff out too.

2. that learning to be happy would require lots of work or that things would inevitably get worse before they get better. this is a straight up delusion, man. this is literally your depression talking. this is not clear vision.

getting better would not be like walking over hot coals. getting better would be like taking a weight off your back. and you can choose to take that weight off, even if you stay right where you are. 

you can sit in your prison and have it not be a prison.

I actually think you are nearly there already, you just have to let go of all of the built up rage, resentment and sadness over what you think you should have had in the past.

letting go of this will not cost you anything and you will immediately start to feel wildly better.

you CAN do it.


----------



## always_alone

But Anon, don't you get it? He doesn't want to let go of it. Right now it is the rage and resentment, and his revenge on his wife that sustains him. *This* is where he feels most comfortable.


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## NotEasy

always_alone said:


> But Anon, don't you get it? He doesn't want to let go of it. Right now it is the rage and resentment, and his revenge on his wife that sustains him. *This* is where he feels most comfortable.


Or, at least, that is what he repeatedly says. But I remain a little unsure whether he really can be happy in this rage and resentment, but perhaps this is where he is used to, feels safest and is not overly uncomfortable.

I have known others who also seemed to live on rage and resentment, I didn't understand them either. It is no way to live, but it is his choice.


----------



## Holdingontoit

EZ: Not happy. Comfortable.  Never been happy (not as a child, not in college r grad school, not single and working - marrying Mrs. H did not cause the unhappiness and divorcing her wouldn't end it). Never expect to be happy. Do not consider "impact on happiness" as a relevant consideration when making decisions. That is what Anon seems to find inconceivable. That I do not care to even try to ever be happy.

EZ, you have read my posts for many years. Don't I sound much more content and less troubled than I did back when I was pursuing sex? Don't I sound more at peace lately?

Anon: I was trying to pursue happiness back then. I was a miserable wreck and doing poorly in my career. Ask EZ. This may not seem "good enough" to you. But it is a darn sight better than it was, and it is stable. I am NOT willing to rock this boat. You may think this is so bad any risk is worth taking. Ask EZ. Things were MUCH worse for me before.

Anon, I cannot drop the resentment when I am never going to have sex with my wife. That is not in the past. That is going to continue forever. It may be my choice, but it is not something I enjoy. I just hate it less than everything that comes along with trying to have sex. The only way I could drop the resentment is to divorce my wife and seek sex with someone else. Maybe someone else could stay married and drop the resentment. I cannot. No matter how many times you tell me I could, I know you are wrong. I can't. The fact that it may be humanly possible for others does not mean it is possible for me.


----------



## NotEasy

Wish I had a word to describe your state, maybe then I could suggest something or at least decide whether I agreed or disagreed with you. The best I come up with is stable. I think you used the mathematical term 'local maxima', or did I use it to try and understand. I imagine you sitting on a small hill, surrounded by tall mountains. Happiness for you is to be up high, but the mountains are distant and you are surrounded by a thick swamp. You think you would get lost in the swamp. Perhaps you are right, who knows. So you sit on your hill, the highest point within reach. Does this describe your situation?

In a sense we all fall short of our dreams, so I can understand that.


----------



## Holdingontoit

EZ: Exactly. That is what I am doing. Sitting on my hill, looking at the mountains with longing. Less angry at my wife because I know it is my failure of will that keeps me from setting forth on a journey toward the mountains.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> EZ: Exactly. That is what I am doing. Sitting on my hill, looking at the mountains with longing. Less angry at my wife because I know it is my failure of will that keeps me from setting forth on a journey toward the mountains.


this is a good analogy, but the failure here is that you continue to live an imaginary life up in the mountains instead of letting that dream go (and it is a dream) and noticing the life you are actually living on the hill.

you are also not in the swamp and never have to go there.

all you need to do is live the life you are actually living on the hill and the rest will take care of itself.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Anon: You are simply wrong. I choose a different path. I encourage you to apply your philosophy to your life and marriage and to continue down the path of your choice. Please stop trying to convince me that your path would be a helpful path for me to take. Or that I am obliged to accept that the hill I am on is a perfectly pleasant place to be. The frustration and resentment helps me cope with the sexlessness. I WANT to feel this way. I am never just going to accept the pretty hillside. If I reach a state of acceptance, I will revert to the doormat I was for so many years. Yes, that is my fear talking. But I know me better than you do. I know how difficult it is for me to say "no" to my wife, despite the sexlessness and overspending. I need the frustration and resentment to stiffen my spine. Sad but true.

The fantasy Hold you imagine will never exist. Your urging me to move in that direction only strengthens my determination to never do so. Thanks anyway for trying. I know you mean well.

I wish you luck on your journey my friend.


----------



## Anon1111

I think you should give yourself more credit.

A man who is driven by resentment would not stand by his cancer-stricken wife as you have. 

You could have really shown her what feeling abandoned means, but you did not do that. So you have a higher motivation than resentment.

You should dwell in this higher motivation which is the real you.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Anon: Feel free to continue to see me in a positive light. If you do, then my wife probably does as well. Which is what I want. Even more than I want sex.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Doctor removed the port in H2's chest today. Fixed a cyst in one scar that was not healing properly. So they think she is done with treatments, at least for now.

We had a nice weekend. Saw live music Saturday night. Went on a hike and ate barbecue Sunday. H2 held my hand several times during the hike. Not what I dreamed of from marriage but very pleasant.


----------



## MrsAldi

Hello H, 

I don't have any advice for you. 
I'm sure you've heard it all anyhow. 

I'm terribly sorry your wife has cancer, I hope she is doing well now. 

Your story, has helped me understand things better in my situation and marriage. Reading what is like to live with someone who was previously been tainted by others, has made me cry and see things from a different perspective. 

Sincerely
Mrs A


----------



## Holdingontoit

Last night we went to an outdoor concert. Saw someone we know from activity our kids used to do together. Had not seen her since the cancer was diagnosed, and she had no idea. This person asked how I had treated H2 since the diagnosis. H2 said I have been great. Everything she could have hoped for. The person joked "he hasn't threatened to trade you in for a younger model, get a sports car, etc.?" H2 smiled and said no, he stood by me.

This morning H2 gave me a big hug on her way out to work. While I was still in bed. Hugs used to be forbidden because, after all, that meant our bodies were touching and we can't have that. And any hugs that did happen occurred outside the bedroom while standing up. Not while I am lying down under the covers. I like this better. Not enough to change my refusal to take things further. But better.


----------



## fetishwife

Wow, you are self-aware that you are suffering from severe lack of self esteem and depression.

It seems like you have given up on your life.

In my first marriage I suffered sorta what you suffered, not as bad, but my self esteem was crushed, and I never had much of it prior to that either.

For me, the solution was divorce, and finding someone else, realizing I am attractive to her and that I can be loved and wanted, a lot.

I never thought it would happen to me, and it did at age 47. Age 50 now and the good has persisted.

You need to give yourself a chance. Yes, its OK to BLAME your crappy marriage for your depression and self-esteem issues.

It seems like it could not be much worse if you get out. So at least consider it....

Challenge yourself man! Get into shape, take care of yourself, believe it or not there are attractive women that want to be with you.






Holdingontoit said:


> Several posters have called me out in John117's thread. To avoid threadjacking, I am creating this thread and will refrain from commenting on my situation on John's thread.
> 
> For the record, I am not looking to resolve my personal or marital problems. I have invested almost 20,000 posts on various marriage forums over the past 13+ years. I have tried everything I am interested in trying. At this point have given up hope of making major changes and am pursuing a different path and a different payoff.
> 
> This thread is intended to provide the backstory to those of you who do not know me form other forums so you will understand my background and perspective when I post on other threads.
> 
> Married 23 years next month. 2 kids - S20 and D18. Classic victim of bait and switch. Sex stopped literally the day we got married. No sex wedding night. Sex at first honeymoon hotel after which H2 announces "now it is consummated and you cannot get it annulled". No further sex during honeymoon (got turned down every night "too tired" etc) except last night when I had to beg. Should have filed for annulment upon airplane touching down back in USA. But I was foolish and believed in vows, better or worse, marriage involves work, etc. Stupid me.
> 
> Five years later we have 2 kids and go away for week's vacation. As with honeymoon, sex only 1 time and numerous turndowns. Including the night of our anniversary, after taking her to dinner in the same restaurant where I proposed, watching fireworks, then staying in fancy hotel. Upon return home, I insist on MC to address sexless marriage.
> 
> We spent 8 years in MC with various MCs and sex therapists. Not once did H2 do any of the "homework" assignments. Not once did H2 live up to agreements we made. Went on vacation several times during this period. No sex. One of the MCs even said to her "your H works hard to support you as a SAHM, I know you work hard caring for the kids but next week you are going to be away from home at a hotel along with your H with no responsibilities, don't you think that maybe you could have some sex with him on vacation?" You guessed it, no sex on vacation either.
> 
> 2 years into MC H2 admitted she had been raped multiple times. She maintains that the rapes have no impact on her sexuality and gets violently angry if I suggest perhaps they do. Shortly after disclosing the rapes, H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit card debt. That was a decade ago and we are still not recovered from the financial devastation.
> 
> Ten years ago our last MC "fired" us saying "if you are not going to make any changes, then you are wasting your time and mine talking to me. I can't keep stealing your money."
> 
> D18 leaves for college in the fall. Many would say now is the time to divorce. I have no interest in doing so.
> 
> I was unhappy as a single person before marriage. Not very successful with females. Hence my susceptibility to H2's allure. And my skepticism as to whether a happy life would await me after divorce. I was unhappy when I was young and had much potential workwise (professionally, I have not lived up to my academic accomplishments) and could offer the prospect of raising children together. I cannot envision being anything but unhappy now that I am older and relatively unsuccessful and no longer have "I will be a great dad to your kids" as a selling point. I never had friends. I never did much but come home to my apartment and watch tv / play computer games. No point in divorcing for that, I can do that while married to H2.
> 
> The bottom line is that I am clinically depressed if not a full blown personality disorder. The work needed to overcome that is more than I am willing to invest. Then there is the impotence, much of which is caused by my lack of exercise and my unhealthy diet. I have been in therapy and took A-D meds on and off since age 17. Never made any difference in my mood or outlook. I did exercise for a time. Ran a half marathon. Dismal results and hated every minute of training. I did a course of P90X. Got in good shape. Did not feel any better and made no difference to H2.
> 
> To get to "happiness" I would need to invest time and money (which, with 2 kids in college, I have none of) to work on myself physically and mentally. Major therapy. Maybe ECT. Change diet. Exercise more. All in the hope that it might make a difference and that I could become someone I have never been. Non-depressed.
> 
> I have been depressed as long as I can remember. Back to nursery school. The concept that if I worked hard enough and invested enough effort I could overcome the depression seems impossible to me.
> 
> What I know is that divorce blows up my world. Kids take a hit. I take a huge financial hit (in my state 20+ year marriages lead to permanent alimony). I can't afford to retire ever as it is. How will I make ends meet on half of "not enough"? You are going to try to convince me I will meet some wonderful woman who is financially comfortable and wants to take me on as a reclamation project? Really? So what is "for sure" is that there are huge practical and financial and emotional downsides. All in the hope of a better future? It doesn't even come close to balancing.
> 
> Of course, it would balance if you assigned a large negative value to living unhappy and depressed. I do not. This is how I have lived my whole life. I don't know anything else. So to me, this is not negative. This is baseline. This is how life is.
> 
> You might feel compelled to entice me with fantasy stories about how I can learn to be happy. H2 enticed me with those same stories. Look how that turned out. I am not gong to be fooled twice.


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## Holdingontoit

Yes, I have given up on ever having a satisfying sex life. My goals now are to keep my job so I can pay for my kids college and graduate school and to pay off my mortgage. Mortgage won't be paid until I am 65 so need to focus on staying valuable at work.

As for marriage, that is my goal. Stay married. My wife made it clear what she wants more than anything is to stay married to me. After all, she lied and pretended before we got married and lied and pretended during MC so she must want very much to be married to me even if the whole thing is a sham. I intend to give her exactly what she asked for.

You may think I am misguided. You may think I should aim for more. You would be mistaken. I was miserable as a child and miserable as an adolescent and miserable as a young adult. All long before I met my wife. My wife is not the root cause of my misery. I have no intention of seeking mental health treatment. As long as I refuse to seek treatment, no healthy or same woman would find me attractive. That means any woman who DID find me attractive must by definition be very messed up. I am not divorcing the mother of my children and a perfectly pleasant dinner and hiking partner just to have sex with a crazy person. I am resigned to staying with the "devil I know". She is more pleasant than ever before. Other than the sex, we get along great. There is even affection, which was entirely absent during the early years of our marriage. I get far too much out of this to ever leave. She is head over heels in love with me. She wants things from me (time, money, emotional connection) and I want almost nothing from her. That gives me power in the relationship. If I left her to seek a partner willing to provide sex on a regular basis, I would be giving up that power. As a guy who spent decades feeling weak and powerless because I wanted sex and rare was the woman willing to consent to have sex with me, at this point I guess I would rather have the power than the sex.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, I have given up on ever having a satisfying sex life. My goals now are to keep my job so I can pay for my kids college and graduate school and to pay off my mortgage. Mortgage won't be paid until I am 65 so need to focus on staying valuable at work.
> 
> As for marriage, that is my goal. Stay married. My wife made it clear what she wants more than anything is to stay married to me. After all, she lied and pretended before we got married and lied and pretended during MC so she must want very much to be married to me even if the whole thing is a sham. I intend to give her exactly what she asked for.
> 
> You may think I am misguided. You may think I should aim for more. You would be mistaken. I was miserable as a child and miserable as an adolescent and miserable as a young adult. All long before I met my wife. My wife is not the root cause of my misery. I have no intention of seeking mental health treatment. As long as I refuse to seek treatment, no healthy or same woman would find me attractive. That means any woman who DID find me attractive must by definition be very messed up. I am not divorcing the mother of my children and a perfectly pleasant dinner and hiking partner just to have sex with a crazy person. I am resigned to staying with the "devil I know". She is more pleasant than ever before. Other than the sex, we get along great. There is even affection, which was entirely absent during the early years of our marriage. I get far too much out of this to ever leave. She is head over heels in love with me. She wants things from me (time, money, emotional connection) and I want almost nothing from her. That gives me power in the relationship. If I left her to seek a partner willing to provide sex on a regular basis, I would be giving up that power. As a guy who spent decades feeling weak and powerless because I wanted sex and rare was the woman willing to consent to have sex with me, at this point I guess I would rather have the power than the sex.


Do you masturbate?


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## badsanta

UMP said:


> Do you masturbate?


 @UMP I do not think that Holdingontoit masturbates, I think _(if I can playfully comment)_ instead he has "episodes" of deeply enjoyable anger and resentment.

Badsanta


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## UMP

badsanta said:


> @UMP I do not think that Holdingontoit masturbates, I think _(if I can playfully comment)_ instead he has "episodes" of deeply enjoyable anger and resentment.
> 
> Badsanta


That's kind of what I was getting at.
What gets "Holdingontoit" out of bed in the morning?
Anger, Resentment ?????


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## Holdingontoit

UMP said:


> Do you masturbate?


Yes, pretty much every day. Used to be more than once a day, but frankly is less and less satisfying. Just makes it easier to fall asleep and prevents getting hard every time the wind blows.

No idea why you would think I stopped masturbating when I stopped having sex with my wife. How the heck do you think I endured 20+ years of near sexlessness while trying to get H2 to consent. I masturbated all the time. Still do, just not quite as often. The only difference over time is that years ago I fantasized about H2 and lately I no longer do that. Feels like a betrayal of what I know about her to fantasize about her enjoying sex with me.

As to what gets me out of bed: my daughter is having an incredible summer. Being able to provide that for her keeps me going. Every text I get from her warms my heart. Divorce destroys my ability to provide kids with "extras". Not worth it to me.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, pretty much every day. Used to be more than once a day, but frankly is less and less satisfying. Just makes it easier to fall asleep and prevents getting hard every time the wind blows.
> 
> No idea why you would think I stopped masturbating when I stopped having sex with my wife. How the heck do you think I endured 20+ years of near sexlessness while trying to get H2 to consent. I masturbated all the time. Still do, just not quite as often. The only difference over time is that years ago I fantasized about H2 and lately I no longer do that. Feels like a betrayal of what I know about her to fantasize about her enjoying sex with me.
> 
> As to what gets me out of bed: my daughter is having an incredible summer. Being able to provide that for her keeps me going. Every text I get from her warms my heart. Divorce destroys my ability to provide kids with "extras". Not worth it to me.


In previous posts you suggested your equipment did not work anymore. It might have been in regards to having sex with your wife though. Good to know you can still get hard.

I guess I cannot understand how you can be "happy" with someone that has caused you SO much resentment and anger. I honestly don't think I could live more than a couple days in your shoes.

Having said that, I can and do follow your logic. Just wish you could get out of your funk, somehow.


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## Holdingontoit

UMP said:


> In previous posts you suggested your equipment did not work anymore.


Works minimally. Enough for by myself. Not enough for partner sex. Exactly how I want it. Keeps me tied to the prison of my own making.

And @UMP, as for getting me out of my funk, this is not a "funk". This is me. I have been pursuing this program since 2005 when we stopped MC. There is nothing anyone can say or do that would get me to change course now. Well, except for H2 saying and doing some things that there is little danger of her ever saying or doing.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> She is head over heels in love with me. She wants things from me (time, money, emotional connection) and I want almost nothing from her. That gives me power in the relationship. If I left her to seek a partner willing to provide sex on a regular basis, I would be giving up that power. As a guy who spent decades feeling weak and powerless because I wanted sex and rare was the woman willing to consent to have sex with me, at this point I guess I would rather have the power than the sex.


this is internally inconsistent on multiple levels


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## Holdingontoit

Nice weekend with S21 and family. H2 very affectionate. Stayed in hotel just the 2 of us and it was so relaxing with sex off the table. In the bad old days the issue of "will we or won't we" would have hung over the entire weekend. This way both of us could be relaxed and H2 could be affectionate. And H2 being affectionate felt nice instead of like a frustrating tease.

Anon: yes, I want sex in the abstract. And no, I don't have the power to obtain sex if I stay with her. But as to everything else, I am now free to do pretty much what I want. I don't feel the urge to cater to her moods. These days she is the one who senses I am getting stressed and offers to do what she can to get me back to a happy mood. Totally opposite of what it was like when I was chasing her for sex. Now she is the one monitoring my mood and sacrificing her desires to cater to mine. I know you don't agree with my decision. But it IS working for me in many ways. Hey, we went out to breakfast and I stuffed my face every morning. Someone asked me if I was worried that I would gain weight and my wife would stop finding me attractive. It was all I could do not to burst out laughing. See, I can eat whatever I want and not worry about my wife losing her attraction to me. Because there isn't any to lose. Very freeing.


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## MrsAldi

I'm glad you guys have some affection these days. 
In some ways, affection is more powerful than sex. 
What about communication? 
Has she been taken an interest in talking to you more about things? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

MrsA: We always talked. As long as it is not about sex, the talks go very well. She is happy to talk politics, international relations, about the kids, about her plans for the future, where should would like to travel, what we should do together during our retirement. One of the things she likes about me is that she finds me a fascinating conversation partner. We never lacked for communication. Except about sex. And really, we have had perfect communication about that. Her views are clear. The less said and done about sex, the better.

Our problem is not that she does not feel sufficient emotional connection with me to be in the mood for sex. Her problem is either that she is totally averse to sex with anyone or totally averse to sex with me. At this point, it doesn't really matter which it is. She has zero interest on doing anything about it. I have zero interest in making any effort to become more attractive to her. So here we will stay unless and until she decides that she wants to have sex badly enough to do something about it. I am not holding my breath waiting for that day.


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## MrsAldi

Did she ever fully tell you or anyone what happened in her past? 


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## Holdingontoit

MrsAldi said:


> Did she ever fully tell you or anyone what happened in her past?


Me? No. Anyone else? Hard to say.

Shortly after admitting during MC to having been raped multiple times, H2 said something to me privately along the lines of "during a session when you (Hold) were not present, I told MC about rape #3, and it was so awful and terrifying that MC started crying." I didn't know how to react to that so I mouthed something intended to be soothing and to indicate my sympathy for her pain. Shortly after this, H2 again reported during MC that the rapes have absolutely no impact on her sexuality and she felt no need to seek counselling to deal with any aftermath, because there is no aftermath.

To me, these statements are inconsistent. If the incident was so horrifying that it left the MC speechless and sobbing, how could it not affect H2's sexuality? H2 has been clear she told no one about the rapes at the time; that the first time she admitted it to anyone was during MC. So it is not that she sought professional help in the intervening years and put the rapes behind her. She claims they simply had zero impact on her. Given her behavior since then, I find this conclusion doubtful – although it is possible she fervently believes it.

I got the distinct impression that the reason H2 told me about MC's reaction to the disclosure was to send the message "this was so awful that, if you loved me, you would never mention it again – and if you REALLY loved me you wouldn't try to have sex with me, either". So I guess now I have shown her that I REALLY love her. And she behaves as if she feels very loved. Which is how I want her to feel. So I guess we are both content with how things are.


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## NotEasy

Holdingontoit said:


> Me? No. Anyone else? Hard to say.
> 
> Shortly after admitting during MC to having been raped multiple times, H2 said something to me privately along the lines of "during a session when you (Hold) were not present, I told MC about rape #3, and it was so awful and terrifying that MC started crying." I mouthed something intended to be soothing and to indicate my sympathy for her pain. Shortly after this, H2 again reported during MC that the rapes have absolutely no impact on her sexuality and she felt no need to seek counselling to deal with any aftermath, because there is no aftermath.
> 
> To me, these statements are inconsistent. If the incident was so horrifying that it left the MC speechless and sobbing, how could it not affect H2's sexuality? H2 has been clear she told no one about the rapes at the time; that the first time she admitted it to anyone was during MC. So it is not that she sought professional help in the intervening years and put the rapes behind her. She claims they simply had zero impact on her. Given her behavior since then, I find this conclusion doubtful – although it is possible she fervently believes it.
> 
> I got the distinct impression that the reason H2 told me about MC's reaction to the disclosure was to send the message "this was so awful that, if you loved me, you would never mention it again – and if you REALLY loved me you wouldn't try to have sex with me, either". So I guess now I have shown her that I REALLY love her. And she behaves as if she feels very loved. Which is how I want her to feel. So I guess we are both content with how things are.


I want to like and hate this.

"Like it" because it shows a couple loving each other (I think) and getting on together, mostly,

"Hate it" because it she has a hurt so bad she lies to herself and destroys her own happiness and yours too.
And hate it because I still can't think of anything to fix the situation, but feel some suggestion is nearby.


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## MrsAldi

It does have absolutely lots of impacts. 
Even subconsciously without realising it does.
I find the aftermath horrendous, it's so easy just to pretend nothing happened. 
The only way to describe it is like being a soldier who has come back from a war. 
Instead of confronting the things he experienced, he just pretended it never happened, yet it affects him from having a normal life.
The constant flashbacks every time it's mentioned is indeed trauma for me. 
It's been something I'm reluctant to share, but therapy has helped improve things so much. 
It's a pity it has taken your wife so long to realise how much you really love her. 
I'm glad that both of you are enjoying some affection together. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## GuyInColorado

Just make a trip to Nevada a couple times a year and get your fix at a brothel. I know plenty of guys that do it. The girls can be smoking hot too. $200-300 for a hour of whatever you want.

You can't deprive yourself of having some great sex. Man, this thread is depressing. So glad I got out of my sexless marriage after 8 years. I'm having the best sex of my life right now!

Hopefully people that are in meaningless/sexless marriages read this... don't be like this guy and have regrets 20+ years later.


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## Holdingontoit

GiC: I tried a pro once. Did not enjoy it. For me, sex is not about the actual sensation. It is about the ego boost and sense of validation. No ego boost or sense of validation from going to a pro. Would just feel like a loser for having to pay for it. So going to a pro would not be in any way helpful. I would just feel worse about myself.

But I agree in general. Any HD who reads this thread and thinks the answer is "waiting and hoping for things to change" needs to rethink.


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## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> Me? No. Anyone else? Hard to say.
> 
> Shortly after admitting during MC to having been raped multiple times, H2 said something to me privately along the lines of "during a session when you (Hold) were not present, I told MC about rape #3, and it was so awful and terrifying that MC started crying." I mouthed something intended to be soothing and to indicate my sympathy for her pain. Shortly after this, H2 again reported during MC that the rapes have absolutely no impact on her sexuality and she felt no need to seek counselling to deal with any aftermath, because there is no aftermath.
> 
> To me, these statements are inconsistent. If the incident was so horrifying that it left the MC speechless and sobbing, how could it not affect H2's sexuality? H2 has been clear she told no one about the rapes at the time; that the first time she admitted it to anyone was during MC. So it is not that she sought professional help in the intervening years and put the rapes behind her. She claims they simply had zero impact on her. Given her behavior since then, I find this conclusion doubtful – although it is possible she fervently believes it.
> 
> I got the distinct impression that the reason H2 told me about MC's reaction to the disclosure was to send the message "this was so awful that, if you loved me, you would never mention it again – and if you REALLY loved me you wouldn't try to have sex with me, either". So I guess now I have shown her that I REALLY love her. And she behaves as if she feels very loved. Which is how I want her to feel. So I guess we are both content with how things are.


It's also possible that the rapes didn't happen and they are just a socially acceptable way to explain her aversion to sex.

I'm not saying it's *likely*, but it's possible.


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## john117

Buddy400 said:


> It's also possible that the rapes didn't happen and they are just a socially acceptable way to explain her aversion to sex.
> 
> I'm not saying it's *likely*, but it's possible.


I'm going on a sample size of one but rape victims may be averse to all touch, not just intimacy related. Again, sample size of one and what I've researched about aversion..


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## Holdingontoit

When I met her she was averse to pretty much all touch. It is not as if she likes massages but dislikes sex. She dislikes any emotionally charged touching. She is not as huggy with our kids as I am.

I guess it is possible she made the whole thing up. But I can say she fits the profile of an unrecovered victim pretty darn well.


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## john117

Q.E.D.


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## MrsAldi

Holdingontoit said:


> When I met her she was averse to pretty much all touch. It is not as if she likes massages but dislikes sex. She dislikes any emotionally charged touching. She is not as huggy with our kids as I am.
> 
> I guess it is possible she made the whole thing up. But I can say she fits the profile of an unrecovered victim pretty darn well.


She has symptoms much like I did. 
But I've had lots of therapy since I was 19, so I function a bit better these days. 






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## Anon1111

Buddy400 said:


> It's also possible that the rapes didn't happen and they are just a socially acceptable way to explain her aversion to sex.
> 
> I'm not saying it's *likely*, but it's possible.


this is what I was about to say.

what's an excuse that conveniently takes sex off the table, makes it the fault of nobody within the relationship, gives Mrs Holding permanent victim status and prevents any meaningful examination of the issue....?

I wouldn't count on the idea that this is the reason she's not interested


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> When I met her she was averse to pretty much all touch. It is not as if she likes massages but dislikes sex. She dislikes any emotionally charged touching. She is not as huggy with our kids as I am.
> 
> I guess it is possible she made the whole thing up. But I can say she fits the profile of an unrecovered victim pretty darn well.


but yet she managed to have enough sex to date, get married and have children

it only became a total barrier after these goals were achieved


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Our problem is not that she does not feel sufficient emotional connection with me to be in the mood for sex.


hard to see where your emotional connection is lacking. you've supported her through her cancer even as your basic needs remain unmet.

lack of "emotional connection" is a handy amorphous excuse



Holdingontoit said:


> Her problem is either that she is totally averse to sex with anyone or totally averse to sex with me. At this point, it doesn't really matter which it is.


which do you think is more likely? if you were no longer around, do you think she would be celibate forever?



Holdingontoit said:


> She has zero interest on doing anything about it. I have zero interest in making any effort to become more attractive to her. So here we will stay unless and until she decides that she wants to have sex badly enough to do something about it. I am not holding my breath waiting for that day.


what would she have to do?

I thought you were totally done with it. Have you told her that?


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: I have no idea. I do not trust her to have told me the truth about anything relating to sex. So I have no idea whether she has an aversion to sex or only to me. Sometimes I think she would go find a man she finds attractive to have sex with. Sometimes I think she would use sex to lure a man into a relationship despite her lack of desire. Sometimes I think she would get a cat and never have sex again. Not particularly relevant to me which is reality, since all of them presume I am out of the picture.

I am done on my end. I do not intend to initiate. I do not intend to raise the issue of sex. However, I can imagine a day when she says "I feel better, we could do something if you want to". Or "it has been such a long time, do you really intend to never do anything again?". At that point I would explain to her that I am unwilling to engage in one-sided PIV sex where I use her as a masturbatory aid while she lies there silent and unmoving, and that I am only interested in having a sexual relationship with her if she is willing to engage in a process of teaching me how to bring her pleasure using my fingers and tongue (or toys). I do not expect her to express any interest in that process, so I do not expect us to ever have sex. And no, I am not going to raise the issue myself. My raising the issue inevitably communicates that I desire to restart our sex life. Only if she raises the issue and expresses a desire to stop being entirely sexless would I provide any communication as to the circumstances under which I would consent to participate.

I rate the chances that she ever raises the issue as low. I rate the chances that she consents to explore her pleasure and sexuality as low. So I operate on the assumption that we will never again have a sex life.

Yes, I understand that I am placing artificial constraints on the process and thus reducing the chances that we reconnect sexually. I am VERY comfortable with that. I am not concerned with chances for upside. I am only concerned with downside risk. I am not willing to open the door even a tiny crack to expressing desire or becoming vulnerable or giving her any sexual power over me. Not unless she opens her door wide open to me. I fully expect she will never do that. I understand why not (assuming she is telling the truth about the rapes). I understand I am not a good partner for an unrecovered rape victim. That is why I am content to never again have sex. It was a long hard road to get here. I am old and tired and not interested in embarking on further journeys of personal growth and development. I understand that does not make me a very attractive partner. So be it. I understand I am asking her to do precisely what I refuse to do. I am aware of the irony and the unfairness. So be it as well.


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## Steve1000

@Holdingontoit

I read the whole thread. If you and your wife are struggling financially and you don't know how you'll live during retirement, why are you paying for your children's university education? My parents are well off, but still had me pay for most of university costs. Upon graduation, I was $15,000 in debt, then went to teach English in Japan and was debt free after 1 1/2 years. 

I may have missed it, but how old are you?


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## Anon1111

H-- you're a fine partner. Much better than your wife could reasonably expect, in fact.

this is not to dump on you-- but what makes you unattractive is undoubtedly the lack of love you have for yourself.


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## Holdingontoit

Steve: in a 1-99 economy, I am much more interested in securing my kids a place on the ladder into the "haves" than in securing myself a comfortable retirement. If you read the entire thread, you should have caught on that attaining financial stability is not as high on my priority list as perhaps it should be.
Anon: Yes, I realize my self-loathing is a very unattractive characteristic. Knowing that I have no intention of changing that is yet another reason why I stay with H2. You insist on viewing me as the victim here. I am not. H2 is. She has to live with ME.


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## Anon1111

I agree you're not a victim. You're willingly choosing what you're doing. You just have an internal conflict regarding your choice.

You can simultaneously:

1. continue to live the life you're living

2. know that you could have something different (and would deserve it) if you chose to

3. recognize that you've forgone these other options because you value certain things more than others, which your current life provides, and 

4. recognize that, while it would be nice to "have it both ways," you don't need it all and that your clinging to the wish that you could keep your current life going and simultaneously live your fantasy life is the real issue, not your actual life per se


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: Agreed. I am getting closer and closer to acceptance. I realize that I like having a wife who is precluded from pressing me for "more". I don't want a wife who inspires me to "be all I can be". That is too much pressure for me. I have huge pressure to perform at work, and I don't want to come home to face more demands. I want a wife who is willing to accept whatever level of effort I feel like mustering. Most women do not find men like me attractive. My wife doesn't. But by taking sex off the table, I have prevented her from feeling justified in complaining. How can she complain that I don't do enough to meet her needs, when my #1 need is completely off the table? She can't, so she doesn't. I have finally arranged my life so that my wife is prevented from saying the 4 words men hate most: we need to talk. If I left my wife for another woman, that woman would likely demand I give life 110% of my best effort, feel entitled to complain when I don't meet her needs, etc. That is a big part of why I stay with my wife. As I often say, I am going to repay my wife by giving her exactly what she wanted: being married to me for life.


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## Holdingontoit

Last night I got the benefit of the "new normal". Got home from work, wife was unhappy I had not called or texted her all day. In the bad old days when we were having sex from time to time, that would have meant 36 - 72 hours in the doghouse. It would have eliminated any chance for sex this weekend. I would have been depressed and irritable as the days wore on with her being hissy despite my best efforts to apologize, make it up to her, etc. Awful all around.

Now, with sex off the table, everything was different. I apologized. She was cool for 20 minutes. Then we watched tv together and in half an hour she seemed to be over it. Today we texted several times and she seems in a good mood. Three cheers for the new dynamic!


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Last night I got the benefit of the "new normal". Got home from work, wife was unhappy I had not called or texted her all day. In the bad old days when we were having sex from time to time, that would have meant 36 - 72 hours in the doghouse. It would have eliminated any chance for sex this weekend. I would have been depressed and irritable as the days wore on with her being hissy despite my best efforts to apologize, make it up to her, etc. Awful all around.
> 
> Now, with sex off the table, everything was different. I apologized. She was cool for 20 minutes. Then we watched tv together and in half an hour she seemed to be over it. Today we texted several times and she seems in a good mood. Three cheers for the new dynamic!


I don't see this as being super positive.

the only thing that has changed is you've learned to let go of your reward (sex).

but this is something you had to let go of because it was just a theoretical reward anyway (it never really happened).

if you're apologizing for not calling/texting on her schedule, you're still subject to her emotional manipulation

just say, "I was busy" or "I forgot"

if she's mad about that, that's her problem. you don't need to relieve her of that


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> if you're apologizing for not calling/texting on her schedule, you're still subject to her emotional manipulation
> 
> just say, "I was busy" or "I forgot"
> 
> if she's mad about that, that's her problem. you don't need to relieve her of that


That is the point. That is exactly what I did. Told her I was busy and left it at that. Later in the evening she asked if I had looked at some texts and emails she had sent during the day. I said "no, I told you I was busy at work all day. I did not look at any personal texts or emails." Then I went back to reading the newspaper.

And despite my lack of apology and lack of concern for her feelings, she was perfectly pleasant the rest of the night and perfectly pleasant today.

Again, that is the point. Without the "lure" of sex, I do not feel any compulsion to relieve her of her bad feelings. If we were having sex, even infrequently, then I WOULD feel obliged to attempt to dispel bad moods. I know it would be better if I could refrain from being subject to emotional manipulation even if we were having sex, but I am simply too weak to accomplish that. Given my weakness, I would rather have no sex and be free than to have sex and be subject to her whims.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> That is the point. That is exactly what I did. Told her I was busy and left it at that. Later in the evening she asked if I had looked at some texts and emails she had sent during the day. I said "no, I told you I was busy at work all day. I did not look at any personal texts or emails." Then I went back to reading the newspaper.
> 
> And despite my lack of apology and lack of concern for her feelings, she was perfectly pleasant the rest of the night and perfectly pleasant today.


OK, I misunderstood. I thought you said you apologized.

I agree it is cool when you realize that things that would've ruined your weekend a few years ago just don't now. that's a big victory


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## Holdingontoit

More evidence I am on the right track. Today I mentioned that I lost a pound, probably because I was strong yesterday and did not eat the doughnut I bought from the food truck on the corner. H2 commented that the reason I have belly fat is that I eat too much sugar. I told her "yes, that is why I don't try to have sex with you anymore, so I am free to eat as much sugar as I like". She told me not to talk like that.

On her way out, she asked me "are you going to leave me when I recover medically?" I told her no, of course not, I am staying with her for the rest of my life. Which is my true intention. She seemed skeptical / confused about why I would want to stay.

To me, this verifies that I am correct to never have sex with her again. She didn't say "can we have sex when I recover medically?" She didn't say "why do you stay with me if you would rather eat doughnuts than have sex with me?" She asked whether I intended to leave her. Seems pretty clear she is perfectly OK with the complete absence of sex as long as I am willing to stay married to her. If she is OK with never having sex for the rest of her life, then I am correct to never have sex with her for the rest of her life.


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## MrsAldi

@Holdingontoit 
Interesting that she said "Don't talk like that" was that in relation to don't talk about sex or don't talk about excuses for eating doughnuts? 
It's also interesting that she thinks you're going to leave her, what would happen if say she had a catharsis to change like I did? 
And begin to have a sex drive again?
I'm speaking hypothetically here, but who knows, she has had those thoughts of you leaving. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

She meant "don't talk about us never having sex again". She has said she doesn't like it when I talk that way because married people are supposed to have sex (at least sometimes) and if we are never having sex that means something is wrong in our marriage and she does not want to have to face that something might be wrong with our marriage. Especially not something she has no intention to trying to fix. Unless fixing it means she lies there silent and unmoving doing starfish sex and I express my undying thanks for her amazing sacrifice.

It doesn't make sense to her why I would want to stay married if I intend to never have sex with her. She is correct. It doesn't make sense. But I find rationality is highly overrated.


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## john117

There's little difference in never having sex and rarely having sex. 

However, what you may be seeing is the spontaneous creation of self preservation neurons. Not enough to make a difference but still...


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## anonmd

Maybe I'm crazy but this seems like a good development. 

As she comes out of her health crisis she is thinking in new ways. Stay the course for a good long while but leave open the possibility she could over time develop a fuller set of more normal thought patterns. If so, maybe it might be worth the risk to re-engage? Maybe? .


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## john117

If the patterns weren't there before the health crisis chances are they aren't coming back and especially now that she knows he's not going anywhere. There may be a gratitude offering here and there but anything resembling normal... Not hopeful without a serious paradigm shift.


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## MrsAldi

@Holdingontoit 
I don't see her with any intention to fix it either. 
My primary reason for getting help was #1 for my mental health & #2 because Mr A did stop wanting to have sex at the beginning of the year. 
I realised that if I don't fix things, things wouldn't be good in the future. 
But she's probably still in denial about things, as you said to me before, trying to forget/deny is a bad thing. 
So I guess maybe you are on the right track. 







Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## john117

Mrs. Aldi, you just described my second major contribution to modern psychology . The self preservation neurons...


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## Anon1111

my take is she wants to be sure you're still on the hook

if you start talking freely about never having sex again and mean it, it might mean that you're an autonomous individual 

she doesn't want that


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## Holdingontoit

Not sure if we are saying anything different. I think she only cares about whether I intend to remain married to her. Is that what you mean by "autonomy"? That I might leave her? In that case, I agree, she dos not want me to leave.

You see, H2 and I are perfectly matched. We each believe that staying married is good for ourself but bad for our spouse. We each believe that if our spouse knew the truth and did what was best for them, they would divorce. The difference is that I know her truth and still won't leave. It used to be the case that she knew her truth and I was ignorant and I stayed because of naively believing that things were different than they are. Now the roles are reversed. I like this way much better. Not very nice of me, but sauce for the goose . . .


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Not sure if we are saying anything different. I think she only cares about whether I intend to remain married to her. Is that what you mean by "autonomy"? That I might leave her? In that case, I agree, she dos not want me to leave.


I don't think we're quite saying the same thing

she believes that dangling the sex carrot is what keeps you in your place

this is probably how things operated for the majority of your marriage

now that you're saying you don't want the carrot, she wonders whether you will stay in your place

to be clear "your place" is not just staying married to her. "you place" is your broader subservience to her. 

so you can remain married to her and still bust out of your cage and she probably would feel threatened by that.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon: you are correct. I am less subservient. And she does not like it. But there isn't much she can do about it. I am not getting very much out of this marriage besides maintaining our finances. She has no other carrots to offer, and the only "stick" is to file for divorce. So unless she is willing to go nuclear, I am out of the cage. She, on the other hand, wants my time and attention and assistance with things so she is stuck accepting that I am not going back into the cage.

See, I am fully capable of providing the things she wants from me even though I know I will never get what I want from her. That is why this is intoxicating. I have a quiver full of carrots and sticks to choose from. They are small carrots and sticks. They used to be totally overshadowed by her having the enormous sex carrot and the brobdingnagian withholding sex stick. But with those gone, she just has the red button for nuclear missiles, and she doesn't want to push that button. So my little carrots and sticks provide me a newfound level of control, as long as I do not push things so far that she is tempted to reach for the red button.

That is why she reacted as she did when I said I do not intend to have sex with her. She knows how little I am getting from this marriage, and if I don't intend to ever again have sex with her, she is questioning why I want to stay married to her. I think in her mind she consoled herself that sex being "off the table" was mostly a result of her illness, and my trying to be nice to her. Apparently she figured that once she recovered, we would go back to having intermittent sex. Now she sees I was serious when I said "no more sex - ever". And I think that terrifies her.

Which just shows exactly how averse to sex she is. Because she can't even imagine trying to seduce me into having sex. She knows she doesn't have it within herself to overcome my resistance. She is beautiful. I love her. And yet she can't imagine enticing me to have sex. Heart-wrenchingly sad for both of us.


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## Anon1111

don't be afraid of the nuclear button

do whatever you want and if she pushes it, cool


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## Affaircare

Hi Hold!

You may remember me as FaithfulWifeCJ from MB and MA (other forums we both frequented). I remember you and your story, and folks I can verify that the way this story is unfolding, it has been unfolding for a couple decades--let's see, it was about 2000 when we met on MB wasn't it?

Anyway, I just wanted to say that although I'd usually encourage people to go to counseling and/or keep sex on the table, in your case I have to say I think this is about the best I've ever seen you! I can't say it clearly enough: it is OBVIOUS that H2 will not and cannot face looking at herself on this issue. It's not happening. And although I have no doubt you'd much rather have a partner who is "into you"--you made a choice and stuck with your choice! 

I think in a strange way what was REALLY killing you was the HOPE that someday, if the planets all aligned just right, that you'd have sex and she'd be engaged and enjoy it! That "hope" was killing you! Now, even though it's not the ideal, you've taken the bull by the horns and removed that threat to your mental health. Seriously is it ideal?--nope not by a longshot! But is it the best you can do given accepting that your spouse just does not want to have sex and you choose not to divorce? Yep, probably.

So I feel very strange saying this, but I think this is a significant step forward....for you. I hope it continues to go well.


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## Anon1111

the next step is if she pursues you for sex, be confident enough to take it but to not let it affect your behavior or overall attitude.

even if all you care about is the "power" angle, this will give you tingles


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> don't be afraid of the nuclear button
> 
> do whatever you want and if she pushes it, cool


Maybe cool for you (but I doubt it). Not cool for me. Blows up children's FOO. Marriage more than 20 years. Permanent alimony. Makes retirement a pipe dream. I do not want her pushing that button. Good news is, she doesn't want to push it, either.

I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to date. I don't want to have to hit the gym and get fit. I don't want to have to compete with other guys for a woman's time and attention. And I sure as heck don't want any other woman to ever see me naked.

I don't want to have to do all that work in the hope of getting some sex. I am a lousy lay. If sex involves me, it isn't good sex. The payoff isn't worth the effort.

I know what I need to do to "earn" a better sex life. I am not willing to do that. So if I am not going to have sex, I prefer to stay married to the mother of my children.



> the next step is if she pursues you for sex, be confident enough to take it but to not let it affect your behavior or overall attitude


I don't have that confidence. If I accept the sex, here is what will happen. The sex will be lousy. I will feel terribly ashamed. And my willpower will crumble.

If she pursues me for sex, she will be met with rejection. I will explain the conditions under which I would be willing to have sex with her. These include talking about sex before we have it. I have every confidence that the conditions will never be met.

And Anon, remember, I am not looking for the "next step". I am not looking to make the situation "better". As FFCJ said, this is the best they have been since we have been married. You told me to do what I want. What I want is to stay strong and resist the siren song of sex. I am never going to get what I originally wanted out of life. Please do not begrudge me having decided to focus on getting my "kicks" this way.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Maybe cool for you (but I doubt it). Not cool for me. Blows up children's FOO. Marriage more than 20 years. Permanent alimony. Makes retirement a pipe dream. I do not want her pushing that button. Good news is, she doesn't want to push it, either.
> 
> I don't want to be divorced. I don't want to date. I don't want to have to hit the gym and get fit. I don't want to have to compete with other guys for a woman's time and attention. And I sure as heck don't want any other woman to ever see me naked.
> 
> I don't want to have to do all that work in the hope of getting some sex. I am a lousy lay. If sex involves me, it isn't good sex. The payoff isn't worth the effort.
> 
> I know what I need to do to "earn" a better sex life. I am not willing to do that. So if I am not going to have sex, I prefer to stay married to the mother of my children.


dude... you're getting way ahead of yourself. 

step 1 is to stop being afraid of ANYTHING she can do to you. you've already taken away her sex carrot. next, take away her "divorce" stick.

the whole point of mutual assured destruction is that everybody loses, so why be afraid of it? you'll all be dead anyway. her and you. so f- it!

can you really be that much more miserable? even if you were just a hermit in the woods, would it really be worse? what can actually happen that would f- up your life?

There is NOTHING she can do to you. NOTHING. It's all gravy for you at this point!

You don't have to do anything. You don't have to hook up with other women, get in shape, make money-- do ANYTHING!

Think about it.



Holdingontoit said:


> I don't have that confidence. If I accept the sex, here is what will happen. The sex will be lousy. I will feel terribly ashamed. And my willpower will crumble.
> 
> If she pursues me for sex, she will be met with rejection. I will explain the conditions under which I would be willing to have sex with her. These include talking about sex before we have it. I have every confidence that the conditions will never be met.
> 
> And Anon, remember, I am not looking for the "next step". I am not looking to make the situation "better". As FFCJ said, this is the best they have been since we have been married. You told me to do what I want. What I want is to stay strong and resist the siren song of sex. I am never going to get what I originally wanted out of life. Please do not begrudge me having decided to focus on getting my "kicks" this way.


lose all of the expectations.

who cares if the sex is lousy? what-- are you trying to impress her? why?

there is no agenda at all and that is the point. 

previously, you held on desperately to the agenda of "getting laid"

now, you hold on desperately to the agenda of "never getting laid"

it's two side of the same coin.

toss the coin into the river


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> the whole point of mutual assured destruction is that everybody loses, so why be afraid of it? you'll all be dead anyway. her and you. so f- it!


You are missing the point. But that is good. If you don't see it, the plan is working.



> can you really be that much more miserable? even if you were just a hermit in the woods, would it really be worse? what can actually happen that would f- up your life?


Yes, of course I can. Right now I have most of what I want. Pretty much everything except sex. I have lots to lose. Just because I don't get any sex doesn't mean I have nothing to lose.



> who cares if the sex is lousy? what-- are you trying to impress her? why?


Not trying to impress her. Trying to balance on the edge of a knife. I must believe the sex would be lousy so I don't want it. If I didn't care if it was lousy, then I would want it. I will NOT allow myself to want it.



> toss the coin into the river


You are exactly correct. I have exchanged one obsession for another.

Let it go? NO. It is my precious. I hold it close and polish it every day. I will never let it go.

You are trying to tell Captain Ahab to stop chasing the White Whale. Never going to happen.

Is it going to destroy me? Yes, that is the whole point. Haven't you been paying any attention at all? It already has.


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## Holdingontoit

Please remember that I basically enjoy most of the interactions with my wife. Rejecting sex entirely has gotten me to a place where I can interact with her without my inner rage, resentment and frustration dominating our relationship. Some might want me to move to a place where I don't have to reject sex entirely. I appreciate the warm thoughts on my behalf. But for now at least, here is where I wish to stay.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Is it going to destroy me? Yes, that is the whole point. Haven't you been paying any attention at all? It already has.


no it hasn't. that is the problem.

as long as you cling to some strategy to defeat this, you preserve that part of you.

the real solution is to realize there is nothing to be gained or lost.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Please remember that I basically enjoy most of the interactions with my wife. Rejecting sex entirely has gotten me to a place where I can interact with her without my inner rage, resentment and frustration dominating our relationship. Some might want me to move to a place where I don't have to reject sex entirely. I appreciate the warm thoughts on my behalf. But for now at least, here is where I wish to stay.


I think this is great.

To be clear, I'm not advocating that you "get" something for yourself.

I'm advocating that you take the next step toward getting rid of your resentment.


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## Holdingontoit

Like I said, I will never let go of my resentment. I have been polishing it for years. I love it far more than I love myself. Gollum never let go of his attachment to his Precious. I will never let go of mine. In the end, it caused his destruction. It has already caused mine. Like a guy reaching the "point of no return" before orgasm. May not have happened yet, but it is already unavoidable. I have allowed the hole to become so deep that I will never choose to try to climb out of the pit. You may try to encourage me to see the pit as not so deep and the sides as not so steep. Try as you may, it will avail thee not. You will fail. At this point, the only thing I know how to do is keep digging. You may try to encourage me to put down the shovel. I never will.


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> Like I said, I will never let go of my resentment. I have been polishing it for years. I love it far more than I love myself. Gollum never let go of his attachment to his Precious. I will never let go of mine. In the end, it caused his destruction. It has already caused mine. Like a guy reaching the "point of no return" before orgasm. May not have happened yet, but it is already unavoidable. I have allowed the hole to become so deep that I will never choose to try to climb out of the pit. You may try to encourage me to see the pit as not so deep and the sides as not so steep. Try as you may, it will avail thee not. You will fail. At this point, the only thing I know how to do is keep digging. You may try to encourage me to put down the shovel. I never will.


 @Holdingontoit

This proverbial bunker in which you proudly live, I'll admit I have often found myself thinking you must keep an exquisite porn collection and stash of exciting novelties down there. Probably enough to make other men jealous. Just say'n!

Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit

I thought of another way to explain to Anon why his efforts to get me to "let go" are in vain.

Anon, think of me as a LD who is married to someone they do not find attractive. And further think of me as someone who believes exactly what you have described on other threads - the LD sincerely believes that they do find their spouse attractive, but that attraction is blocked by poor behavior on the HD's part. The LD honestly believes that if the HD behaved better, the LD's attraction to the HD would no longer be blocked and sex would seem desirable. You may try to convince the LD that they do not actually find their spouse attractive, and that the problem is not the HD's behavior. But as you have so ably described, the LD is very invested in believing they do find their spouse attractive, and no matter how eloquently you argue in favor of lifting the veil from the LD's eyes, they will resist you and continue to choose to live in denial.

You may believe that the LD is better off admitting the truth, even if that truth requires them to divorce or to accept that they are married to someone they do not find attractive. But many LDs (and many of their HD partners) would rather that the denial continue.

That is me. I am making a foolish choice. The only way I can justify this choice is to hold on to my resentment. You may argue that I would be better off to let go of the resentment and make a different choice. But I know I am not going to make a different choice. So if I am going to keep making the same poor choice either way, I would rather live with the belief that I am justified than with the belief that I am just a moron. So the resentment will continue. Reality is not in any way relevant to my decision.

Be very careful how you reply to this. If you claim that deep down I know I am being a moron, then you are implicitly admitting that deep down the LDs know they are not attracted to their spouse. Which makes them evil rather than stupid. Which is why I keep telling you that my soul is already destroyed.


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## Anon1111

H--

it's just not that big of a deal. that's the point. you've built it up into this big deal in your mind, first by chasing it, then by running away from it. it's 100% in your head.

step outside of your head and just enter the world. it. does. not. matter.

I understand you've dug this giant hole inside your head. 

you don't have to climb out! all you have to do is wake up and realize it's just a big figment of your imagination.


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## UMP

Anon, 
Let me try to explain H's situation in laymen terms.
His wife has beaten him down to nothing. However, his resentment for this is strong. Sex was his wifes only tool for controlling H. H decided to go one step further and eliminate ALL possibility of sex. No initiations from him, EVER. If she initiates, he will decline. Essentially H took a completely hopeless situation where he was at the bottom and now finds himself in control. He is the master of his domain. His wife cannot control him any longer. 

It's actually a better position than some LD\HD relationships because he has eliminated all variables.

I am not saying that what he has done is right or wrong. I am simply saying that in a twisted sort of way, he has power in the relationship and regardless of how ridiculous it may sound to us, he likes it this way.


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## badsanta

Anon1111 said:


> H--
> 
> it's just not that big of a deal. that's the point. you've built it up into this big deal in your mind, first by chasing it, then by running away from it. it's 100% in your head.
> 
> step outside of your head and just enter the world. it. does. not. matter.
> 
> I understand you've dug this giant hole inside your head.
> 
> you don't have to climb out! all you have to do is wake up and realize it's just a big figment of your imagination.


 @Anon1111 

According to H's location settings, he is not in hole, he is currently "out in the woods."

I have a friend from HS that never got a real job, never got married, never had any kids. He spends his average day hiking an average of 20 miles a day through the mountains with less than twenty pounds of gear for months on end. He can literally jog nonstop to the top of a mountain, meanwhile I get winded just just climbing a single flight of stairs. After visiting this friend, I listened to myself being extremely critical of him for never having settled down, but as I listened closer to myself, I realized I was actually bragging about him living his life completely free in the great outdoors and wishing I was in better shape.

...my point being, we always look at someone else, quickly judge them, and use that to make ourselves feel better about ourselves. While H is still working out his issues, he seems rather committed to making the best out of his decisions in life and has discovered that his sacrifices are what makes his wife feel loved and safe. If you or I had to step into H's shoes and live in his marriage, odds are we would not fair too well. 
@Holdingontoit would you post us a photo of the great outdoors since you are currently in the woods, and prove to everyone that it is perhaps us that need to step out into the world and stop living inside our heads and the internet?

Badsanta


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## Anon1111

I agree that H has taken a huge step forward. This current dynamic definitely seems preferable to going back to where he was.

My point is that there is a third way that is not chasing and not running away from the thing he desires.

I realize that H is concerned that to go down this middle path would expose him to getting sucked back into the "chasing" current. He may not feel he can take this risk.

That's understandable, but he should not be fooled that where he is sitting is any better on this front. 

He is still harboring his desire. AND he is always still at risk of getting sucked back into the "chasing" path. This will NEVER go away.

in fact, I think what he is doing places him at greater risk of caving than if he just said f- it and took whatever came his way.

those who fight the rip current drown. those who let the current take them generally don't.


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## Holdingontoit

Anon1111 said:


> He is still harboring his desire. AND he is always still at risk of getting sucked back into the "chasing" path. This will NEVER go away.
> 
> in fact, I think what he is doing places him at greater risk of caving than if he just said f- it and took whatever came his way.
> 
> those who fight the rip current drown. those who let the current take them generally don't.


Thanks for the concern, but you needn't worry. I am not fighting the rip current. I am floating in the stream. I swam upstream for 18 years. I can float downstream indefinitely.

It appears that you think I am blind to what is happening, and that if you explain it to me clearly enough, I will see the truth and choose differently. Nope.

Very decent and endearing of you to think we are all innocent and well intentioned, just in denial. I am sure if I knew you in real life that I would like you.

I am wearing my explosive vest. You want me to put down the trigger and take it off. Not going to happen.


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## Anon1111

great clarification. I totally get what you're saying. keep it up!


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## Holdingontoit

Great snuggling session this morning. We woke up early, wrapped ourselves around each other and I fell back asleep for an hour. We have discussed over the years that I would like to spoon more, and sleep with my arm draped around her, but she never liked to stay that way for more than 30 seconds or so. She had numerous complaints such as being too hot, my arm being too heavy, not liking to feel my breath on her skin, etc. So today was a special treat for me. Glad that my body did not betray me by reacting to the physical contact.


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## Holdingontoit

Another nice start to the week. This morning H2 crawled over and put her head on my shoulder for a few minutes. Seems that if we have a pleasant weekend together, she feels bonded on Monday morning.


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## 225985

I am only on your first page. This may have been discussed already. I suggest you go find a FWB or just an emotional F. Fill your needs elsewhere. There are others like you that need the same without other expectations. You owe nothing to your wife. Go do something that involves other people. You dont have to chase anyone or compete. If it happens it happens. Having no expectations means nothing to lose. 

There are new AD meds to try. The ones you took years ago are a generation old. 

You did good raising your kids. 

I am thin but cannot run a marathon. That was still a great accomplishment regardless of how you felt. Exercise svcks but it is necessary. I do it to look better, not feel better.


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## 225985

Deleted a double post.


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## Holdingontoit

@blueinbr: Thanks for stopping by. I would only feel worse if I cheated. if I want sex, I have to divorce first. That is who I am. Even before I got married, I never felt good about having sex with someone "just for fun". I have all sorts of shame and fear about myself and about sex and I am not willing to undertake the extensive therapy needed to unwind the tangled web of my hangups and insecurities. Recognizing that has helped me accept that it is OK if my wife never addresses hers, either.


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## DustyDog

Actually, to get to happiness, you have to decide to do it.

I did a Practicum back in the mid-90s. I counseled patients dying of AIDs. It was surprisingly easy to guide them to happiness.

As it turns out, most depression stems from anxiety about the future. Once these patients got past the initial grief/fear, they realized a great weight had been lifted from them - there was so little future that they had no chance of failing to be there! No worries about inadequate money to retire and so on.

Fr. Anthony de Mello puts it this way:
It is fine to have desires. I desire that today is sunny. If my desire is healthy, and I wake up to rain, I am still happy. I did not "attach" my happiness to the sunny day.

So, watch those attachments.

A person who has detached their happiness from the outside world is said to have an "internal locus of control"...that is, you believe that you have the capability to strongly affect your own emotions. Something may happen that causes you temporary suffering, but once you remember that it's your thoughts that matter, not the outside world, you can recover quickly.

The only thing you notice about these people is that they seem to be more energetic. They still have jobs, spouses, children, they still have arguments, they still struggle to get things in life that they desire. However, they have successfully separated their interactions with the "outside world" (everything outside of their own psyche) with their decision to be happy.

de Mello relates the story of a mystic who has achieved enlightenment (total detachment from all worldly things). He was asked how it felt. He replied, "Before I was enlightened, I was depressed. Now that I am enlightened I am still depressed. But it no longer makes me unhappy."

The essence is to become a world-class observer. Not a judge, just an observer. You are a camera, you are not a reporter/editor. 

I am not there yet, but I'm moving...slowly. You know, don't you, that the most immovable object in anybody's life is themselves...true for me, that's certain.

But, here's an example of a realization I had...facts altered to avoid giving details about someone else.

The first few years with my SO were great. We never had to plan how we did things, we just thought so much alike. Housework, meals, fixing the cars, etc. Five years later, we'd moved twice due to economy/job. Different climate, worn out cars replaced...and things were not going well. I tried to explain why I felt we should do things this way, and she said it sounded good, but then went about it her way. Eventually, she stopped doing anything. Didn't work, didn't clean house, ceased being pro-active about the cars (she's the car nut). I was frustrated, tried talking, the more I talked the less she responded, I felt she was pulling away very fast. Went on for years.

'been in counseling for a year and none of that has changed - but I've learned that she is who she is. I cannot change her. In fact, I have come to think of the attempt to change someone as being actually unethical. I am responsible to live my life. She is a stranger in my house. I can have sympathy - there's a mass of fears, anxiety and such in her...she cannot see rainbow colors only black and white. Her childhood was ruled by rigid rules, no flexibility. Thus, her difficulties in doing things differently than she did 50 years ago. The fact that we hooked up so fast nearly 20 years ago and "instantly" knew how to act was because, by the miracle of circumstance, we happened to be on the same page as each other at that point on our lives. She is still on that same page, while I have moved on in the book of life, to adapt to being older, living in a different place, etc. 

I can sympathize, but it's not my business to change her. And, because of her fears, when things get tough, she hides any way she can - no talking, no eye contact, etc. 

So...my marriage is not better. But I am. I no longer hang my happiness on her growth...I needed to, since it's fairly clear that if she's growing, I don't see it.

I got into this detachment/choose happiness stuff kind of a long way 'round, but since then, I've found a very quick intro. Byron Katie has managed to put the entire method of detaching and choosing happiness into 6 pages. Her method is called "The Work", as in "you have to do the work to get the results". The 6 pages are page 5 through 10 in her publication called "The Little Book". It's actually 56 total pages...but because it was a small-format book, they made it into 14 PDF pages. The first 4 pages are intro material and adverts, skip that. After page 10, she presents worksheets and ways to use them. Powerful stuff. 

Be warned: sometimes if you're deeply attached - you have hung your happiness on everything outside of you and nothing of what's inside you - when you start detaching you will feel very alone. This is an excellent time to pick up an activity. Study after study has shown the hormonal benefits of aerobic exercise. Run, walk, whatever gets your breathing rate up. You don't need to be an athlete, nor lose weight, just move.

Google for "Byron Katie Little Book" and you'll find it.

Good luck.


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## imtamnew

DustyDog. Thanks that is a beautiful post.


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## Holdingontoit

@DustyDog: Great post. Thank you for talking the time and sharing such wisdom.

You first line says it all. To get to happiness, you have to decide to do it. I have decided not to. I don't expect to get there without doing it. I expect to remain unhappy. I am content with that. I refuse to become attached to happiness. As you note, attachment leads to discontent.

Also as you suggest, I have gone into observer status with my wife. She does whatever she does and it has almost no impact on me. I want almost nothing from her except to remain married to me. She is thrilled with the "new me". He is less needy and she likes that. She fears I am not thrilled with her. This anxiety motivates her to treat me well (outside of the sex area). I enjoy being treated better than before, but I refuse to become attached to it. This robs me of much joy. But prevents me from being disappointed when the good treatment is absent.

Finally, as you predict, now that I have given up on the object of my attachment (sex) I am empty inside. However, I do not plan to fill the hole. Not with activities. Not with friends. Not with exercise. I intend to leave the inner space empty. I have anchored my attachment to inner emptiness. That makes it highly unlikely that the object of my attachment will ever go away. I am actually quite proud of my elegant solution to the problem of external attachments.


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## Anon1111

attachment to emptiness is also attachment


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## Holdingontoit

@Anon1111: Yes, exactly, that is the point. Not trying to have no attachment. Not trying to become healthy or detached. Trying to be attached to something I can control and rely on. Emptiness is on my side of the street. I don't need H2 to obtain it. I don't need other people. I don't need internal discipline. I don't need to take risks. It is a sure thing. A sucker's bet. Guaranteed to lose in the long run. But predictable. That is what I want. The coward's way out. Try as you might, you will never entice me into being brave. And not being brave, this choice IS the correct choice for me.


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## Anon1111

the point is that you do not have true emptiness

let go of your need to control the situation


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## Holdingontoit

Nope. never going to happen.

Great weekend with family. So blessed to have my parents still with us and able to do things. Great memory making.

I did not masturbate the entire trip. May have been the longest I have gone since I was 12 years old. Hardly noticed attractive females at the beach. Friday night H2 was very admiring and touchy. When we got back to the hotel room, she started to rub my neck and shoulders. Seemed she might be open to some physical interaction. I had zero interest. No physical reaction. No emotional reaction. Eventually she stopped and I went to sleep. The next day she was very complimentary. I think I have our marriage in a very good place. I like this much better than when we had rare and poor sex. So no, I am not going to let go of the outcome and see where things lead. I like where I am taking us and I intend to continue "driving" on this path.


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## Anon1111

Holdingontoit said:


> Nope. never going to happen.
> 
> Great weekend with family. So blessed to have my parents still with us and able to do things. Great memory making.
> 
> I did not masturbate the entire trip. May have been the longest I have gone since I was 12 years old. Hardly noticed attractive females at the beach. Friday night H2 was very admiring and touchy. When we got back to the hotel room, she started to rub my neck and shoulders. Seemed she might be open to some physical interaction. I had zero interest. No physical reaction. No emotional reaction. Eventually she stopped and I went to sleep. The next day she was very complimentary. I think I have our marriage in a very good place. I like this much better than when we had rare and poor sex. So no, I am not going to let go of the outcome and see where things lead. I like where I am taking us and I intend to continue "driving" on this path.


I'm interested in where you think this is headed and what will happen if you don't arrive at that destination.


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## Holdingontoit

I don't think we are "headed" anywhere. The only "destination" I expect to arrive at is death. I think I have pretty good odds of getting there. Short of that, I want to stay married to my wife. To all outward appearances, she is currently thrilled to be married to me. She has never been more admiring or complimentary of me than she was this past weekend. Divorce would be both financially and emotionally costly to her, so I think we have a large margin to play with before she would even consider leaving me.

There is no "other shoe to drop" in my marriage or my life. I do not intend to ever divorce my wife. I do not intend to cheat. I do not intend to have a satisfying sex life. I do not intend to ever be happy in my life or my marriage. I have been unhappy in my marriage for its entirety. I have been unhappy in my life for its entirety too. You seem to think that there is pressure building and that I will eventually "snap" if I continue on this path. Relax, that is not going to happen. Unhappiness is my steady state and continuing to be unhappy does not make me feel worse and worse. I am quite comfortable being continually unhappy and can easily maintain this state for the rest of my life. It is all I have ever known.

If you are thinking that I am biding my time waiting to drop some "bomb" on my wife, and that I have some vision of the consequences from dropping that bomb, you are mistaken. I am not waiting for the "right time" to make some dramatic announcement or to take dramatic action. There is no "expiration date" on my willingness to continue to live in an unsatisfying marriage. I have done it for decades. I expect to continue doing it for as much time longer as God grants me.

If you have some specific concern that I have not addressed, stop dancing around asking enigmatic questions and just come out and say what is on your mind.


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## Anon1111

OK, here is what I'm seeing. Obviously, let me know if I'm off base.

You previously had a power dynamic in your marriage where your wife was in the dominant position. Your desire for her was high enough that she was able to get away with almost anything.

You've finally gotten a handle on your desire by deciding to unilaterally refuse any attempt toward sex. This has reversed the power dynamic. Sex was the only weapon she really had. Overall, she was a very poor partner otherwise.

You, on the other hand, for all of your flaws, had a lot more to offer. And, even as you have gotten off sex, you have not pulled back on the other things you offer her. On the contrary, you have substantially upped your contribution to the relationship.

However, this is not selfless. The power dynamic remains. There is a strong whiff of passive-aggression in everything you do. 

You gain pleasure from the confusion your wife has. You gain pleasure from the idea that she is stuck with you. You especially seem to gain pleasure from the fact that she now pursues you in some form from time to time. 

This is all understandable to me. If I've described this right, I don't really blame you. I don't feel badly for your wife.

My concern is if she gets wise to this game. Do you think she can't pull back too? What would your reaction be if she sees that you are in a sense playing with her? 

At root, you want her to be on the hook the way you were on the hook. You got yourself off of the hook, but she can too and probably much easier than you did.

If she shows you how easily she can let you go, I think it would be very hard for you to handle.


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## Holdingontoit

Like I said, my only worry is about divorce and that is mostly financial. As you say, maybe it would be easy for her to leave me and find another man who is willing to support her - or at least replace the other half of the income since she would get half of mine. I totally agree with you that if she divorced me I would be terribly unhappy. I am counting on a combination of factors to de-motivate her from divorcing me. The negative reaction from the kids, the financial impact, combined with the reality that the easiest solution to the financial impact is to find another man - which would likely require her to have sex with him. So I think she will find divorce to be a very unattractive choice. Based on all these downsides to divorce, I predict she will choose to ignore any hints that reality is different than surface presentation. I think she will choose to live in denial, just as she lived the lie that she found me sexually attractive. We will both pretend. We are both good at it.

Short of divorce, I do not care if she pulls back. She is the one who plans activities together. I am content to garden and watch tv and play computer games. She is the one who plans activities for nights and weekends. She is the one who likes having a dinner companion and steady "date" for the weekend. I eat my lunch at work alone at my desk pretty much every day. I eat dinner alone at the kitchen table almost every night after work. If she pulled back but stayed married to me, she is the one who would suffer form the lack of interaction. Now that sex is off the table, she does not have any carrots to withhold. Divorce is the only stick she has. I am counting on her not wanting to go nuclear. I may lose that bet.

Anon, as I have said before, I think you are a very decent and honorable person. I think you sincerely want the best for the people you post to here at TAM. And I think you truly believe that being open and honest is the most effective way to get the best results from life.

I used to be like you. I was totally open and honest with my wife for the first 13 years of our marriage and the 8 years we spent doing MC. I got kicked in the teeth and the crotch over and over again. I no longer believe that open and honest communication is a virtue that is its own reward.

I am the one taking the risk. I understand I am investing in a house built on a very shaky foundation. It seems you would have me sell this house and find another built on a more solid foundation. I am just hoping that there are no earthquakes before I die. I realize one day I might find myself staring at a pile of rubble. Or God forbid die when the house caves in on me. You wish for me to avoid those fates. That is yet another sign of your basic decency. I do appreciate your concern. But I am not going to fix my house or find another. I am going to live in a rickety house and hope it does not fall down during my time in it.


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## Anon1111

I'm actually very interested in your perspective because I see some parallels to mine.

I know you are being nice to me and I realize a lot of what I am saying probably seems like condescending nonsense.

Honestly, your situation scares me. That I why I keep posting to you. 

I am trying to find a better way and think I have. I am sharing it with you because I think you could understand what I am talking about.

Emptiness is a big deal. 

I think you are on the cusp of realizing something that would take so much stress off of you. Emptiness is the first step, but there is surface emptiness where you feel dead inside and then there is a deeper emptiness where you let that go too. 

It will seem so simple one you take that step.

There is nothing to achieve. That is true emptiness. There is no path.


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## Anon1111

I realize that what I'm saying probably comes off as condescending nonsense.

just consider that there are levels of emptiness.

there is the level where you feel dead inside.

then there is a level below that where you let that go too and just say, "f- it."

if you haven't already gone there, give it a shot.


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## Holdingontoit

No. Thank. You.

We can do this dance forever. I have been unhappy my entire life. This is where I am comfortable. I will resist with every fiber of my being any proposed behavior that has a chance of producing an outcome where I am happy. You can't win this argument. The more you try to convince me that your suggestions contain the possibility that they could result in my being happy, the harder I will fight against them. And if you concede they have no chance of producing happiness, then they aren't worth implementing. I already know how to do unhappy quite well.

Don't you see, I am not looking for a solution. Read my first post on this thread. I told everyone not to bother offering suggestions for improving my life. I don't want to improve my life. I want to keep suffering.

But feel free to keep posting. I find this banter quite amusing. If you find it pleasurable to keep banging your head against a brick wall, please continue. I would not want to rob you of your fun.


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## pidge70

Why are you here?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon1111

OK, I'm not trying to win an argument with you. I don't think we are really arguing anyway.

I'm just suggesting some things to think about.

Such as:

-there is no solution and no problem

-there is no happiness or unhappiness

-there is no better or worse

-there is no suffering and no salvation


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## Holdingontoit

@Anon1111: I am glad that you have found a better path. I think you are wise to go beyond surface emptiness and get to "forget it, I am doing what is good for me". But just because it is the right choice for you does not make it the right choice for me.

I am farther down the path. I am glad my example frightens you and motivates you to head in a different direction. That is a wise choice on your part.

I wish you well on your journey. I hope your wife chooses to join you. I think it would be a very foolish choice for her to abandon you. She won't find a more decent and caring human to share her life with.


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## Holdingontoit

pidge70 said:


> Why are you here?


To set an example of what not to do. To act as a warning to HDs not to let the situation fester too long, because it can destroy you.

On to today's bit of humor. This morning I masturbated for the first time in a week. I had PE. The woman I was fantasizing about didn't even have time to take off her bottoms. :surprise:


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## DustyDog

Holdingontoit said:


> I don't think we are "headed" anywhere. The only "destination" I expect to arrive at is death.


Believe it or not, you do have a destination. Stasis. As a living, breathing human, surrounded by living breathing humans, families, businesses and an eco-system, the most difficult destination is "no change". You are always headed somewhere. You can act to influence that direction, or you can let the winds of change beat your around like a dingy in the midst of a hurricane.



Holdingontoit said:


> I want to stay married to my wife.


Is this an attachment? Are there many things you would sacrifice in order to achieve this goal? Then it is an attached destination.



Holdingontoit said:


> To all outward appearances,


Are you saying it this way because you believe, somehow deep inside her, she doesn't really believe this?



Holdingontoit said:


> ...she is currently thrilled to be married to me. She has never been more admiring or complimentary of me than she was this past weekend.


Does this make you feel good? Then you are attached to being admired.



Holdingontoit said:


> Divorce would be both financially and emotionally costly to her, so I think we have a large margin to play with before she would even consider leaving me.


This actually sounds a bit like "caretaker's syndrome" in which you are attached to causing pleasure to someone else. An attachment.



Holdingontoit said:


> There is no "other shoe to drop" in my marriage or my life. I do not intend to ever divorce my wife. I do not intend to cheat. I do not intend to have a satisfying sex life.


Stated in terms of positive actions, this is said:
* I intend to stay married until death do us part
* I intend to be faithful
* I shall have whatever sex life she desires

These are all destinations..goals. Maybe attachments, maybe not. It depends on whether the successful achievement of them is tied to your pleasure.



Holdingontoit said:


> I do not intend to ever be happy in my life or my marriage. I have been unhappy in my marriage for its entirety. I have been unhappy in my life for its entirety too.


You know, we humans are biological comparison machines. If our level of happiness never changes, then we are not aware of it. If you are always unhappy, then you have no idea that you are unhappy. The only way to know that you are unhappy is that you have, at some point, been happy, and for long enough that it left a lasting memory. If, as you say, you have been unhappy the entirety of your life, then you would not actually know it to be true.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just usually better to be honest with yourself, that's all.


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## Holdingontoit

Dusty: Not into metaphysical discussion of whether something is or is not an attachment. Willing to admit I have attachments. Don't really care whether I do or I don't. Not interesting in dropping whatever attachments I have. Used to be attached to partner sex with my wife. Horrible choice of attachments because she was actively opposed to facilitating my attachment. Now I am attached to the first 2 items on your list. Better choice because as long as I keep my job, wife is NOT opposed to my staying married to her or to my refusal to have partner sex with anyone else.

And obviously I am not attached to having whatever sex life she wants, because the last few times she offered I turned her down. I am attached to NOT having any partner sex with anyone. If I were able to reliably bring my wife to orgasm, I would be willing to make an exception for her. But since she does not have orgasms when she is with me, she is included in the general rule. Luckily, she seems not interested in having a sex life either, so my turning her down does not appear to have any negative impact on our relationship.

I was happy for 2 or 3 months in early 1980. So I do understand the difference between being happy and unhappy. I'm just not willing to make any investment in becoming happier.

No orgasms in 6 days. Attractive women sat on either side of me on airplane last night. No interest in either of them. Killing off my libido seems to be working.


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## Holdingontoit

Good snuggle session this morning (at least for me). Once again I fell asleep with my arm around her. I enjoy that very much.

And H2 bought me a baked good as a welcome home present. Early in our marriage she used to buy me baked goods to show me she was thinking of me during the day. Eventually I told her "you can't buy your way out of the lack of sex with baked goods, I don't want you to buy me cupcakes, I want to have sex with you". So she stopped buying treats. I think the welcome home treat is emotionally significant. I sat with her this morning at the kitchen table and had breakfast with her, which I rarely do. I wanted her to feel that her offering was appreciated.


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## Holdingontoit

Good night on bonding last night. Came home from work relatively early and we watched tv. H2 snuggled close (unusual). She reached for my package (unheard of). She stroked me erect. I asked her what she was doing. She said she is allowed. I did not disagree. I pulled her close to kiss her. She did not want to kiss. She did not want me to tend to her. she just wanted me to climb aboard and "do my business". We went back to watching tv. Pleasant but still totally disconnected. She wants me to initiate and then accept starfish sex. I refuse to accept her zoning out and allowing me to use her as a masturbatory aid. Several nice hugs this morning so no bad fallout from turning her down.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> Good night on bonding last night. Came home from work relatively early and we watched tv. H2 snuggled close (unusual). She reached for my package (unheard of). She stroked me erect. I asked her what she was doing. She said she is allowed. I did not disagree. I pulled her close to kiss her. She did not want to kiss. She did not want me to tend to her. she just wanted me to climb aboard and "do my business". We went back to watching tv. Pleasant but still totally disconnected. She wants me to initiate and then accept starfish sex. I refuse to accept her zoning out and allowing me to use her as a masturbatory aid. Several nice hugs this morning so no bad fallout from turning her down.


Oh my!
Forget the kissing. Next time she does that, tell her to unzip your pants and challenge her to suck you dry. Bet her she won't be able to get you hard nor get you to have an orgasm.

Every girl likes a challenge:wink2:


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## MrsAldi

@Holdingontoit 
I had a feeling she would initiate! 
But if you want quality sex in the future, I would keep turning her down.
Especially the fact that she didn't want to kiss. 
Don't give in to her & if she starts a fight be honest & tell her that the starfishing does nothing for you! 
Maybe she'll realise that she needs to work on herself. 
But do keep up with the snuggling & affection.  


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

@UMP: I am not looking for her to get me off. She is willing to do that. I am looking for her to let me get her off. She refuses to allow me into her sexual world. Not the one in her private parts. The one inside her head. Until she grants me access to her mental world, I am not granting her access to my physical world.


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## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> @UMP: I am not looking for her to get me off. She is willing to do that. I am looking for her to let me get her off. She refuses to allow me into her sexual world. Not the one in her private parts. The one inside her head. Until she grants me access to her mental world, I am not granting her access to my physical world.


I can understand that.
However, as an attorney you know that compromise is sometimes necessary in order to resolve an issue.
What better compromise than allowing your wife to give you a blowjob. It may open the door to her brain.

If you do it in a alpha, manly way as I mentioned above, it may just be what the doctor ordered.


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## john117

UMP said:


> I can understand that.
> However, as an attorney you know that compromise is sometimes necessary in order to resolve an issue.
> What better compromise than allowing your wife to give you a blowjob. It may open the door to her brain.
> 
> If you do it in a alpha, manly way as I mentioned above, it may just be what the doctor ordered.


Sigh.

The issue is not one time sex as indicated here. The issue is achieving a paradigm shift whereas one is willing and able to accept themselves and their spouse as sexual beings with specific needs, and work to fulfil those needs for the betterment of the relationship. 

That's where the one time or infrequent starfish sex epically fails. The one sidedness of the act is not conducive to building up confidence and quality for the next time. Instead, if and when the next time comes, the veil of mistrust will be deployed and nothing good will come from it.

It's an incremental process.


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## UMP

john117 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> The issue is not one time sex as indicated here. The issue is achieving a paradigm shift whereas one is willing and able to accept themselves and their spouse as sexual beings with specific needs, and work to fulfil those needs for the betterment of the relationship.
> 
> That's where the one time or infrequent starfish sex epically fails.


But of course.
Sometimes you need to think outside the box.
Maybe she needs a man to do what I suggested. Maybe that's what opens her up. Maybe, maybe not.
IMO it's worth a try.
Not much to be lost.


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## john117

The thing is, trying resets the shot clock so to speak. Once she has her mediocre interlude she thinks she's done for a month or two. 

It's not an expletive deleted vacation!!!


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## UMP

john117 said:


> The thing is, trying resets the shot clock so to speak. Once she has her mediocre interlude she thinks she's done for a month or two.
> 
> It's not an expletive deleted vacation!!!


Can you ever win a game without even trying to shoot?

All I am saying is that maybe she might dig him to shoot at half court, facing the other basket, under his legs. Nothin but net.

Again, since the score has been zero to zero, for years, there ain't much to lose.

Get in the stands and shoot from there.


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## Holdingontoit

UMP: Your plan would be worth pursuing if I were willing to invest the time and energy to get into shape to have sex. Part of my "payoff" from avoiding sex entirely is that I get to leave part of my side of the street "dirty". I don't have to exercise or worry about how my belly looks naked or take Viagra or worry about whether I can achieve an erection or reach orgasm. If I am going to try and be more "alpha", and accept her offers of sex, I need to do some work. I would rather abstain from doing the work and live sexless. At least, unless and until she is interested in having mutual sex.

I realize that staying out of shape reduces (eliminates?) any chance that she will be inspired to explore mutually satisfying sex. I am simply unwilling to start a process that I know will increase my desire for sex and my frustration from going without sex. I know that continuing on this path ensures I lose the game. But I am not trying to win. I am trying to reduce the humiliation factor and the pain. I would rather fail to win by staying at 0-0 than play a real game and lose 100 - 0. This way, she never "scores" either. She never gets to turn me down. She never gets to manipulate me into doing things by dangling the possibility of sex and then pulling it away when I try to reach for it. I am not trying to maximize my score. I am trying to minimize hers. Very different game.


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## imtamnew

@UMP: I took your advice. 

Sorry for the threadjack.

So today after the kids had gone to school, the wife decided to sit close to me and then on my lap. She does that often.
Its been a year since we have had sex.
She has been asking me to do it with her but I have made it clear that the only sex I want is that which is unhindered. I am not going to have sex with someone who is only interested in her orgasm.
Anyways I degress.

Today, I just kept playing with her.
Also I am strong. Although she weighs about 130 pounds, I can easily lift her and rock her and all that.
In fact one of our family games is me carrying her and both our kids.
So today I kept wrestling with her and kissing her and playing and playing.

Did not initiate sex as we had less time and I had to also leave office.

What I did learn is that her NO does not mean NO.
She would push me away. Earlier I would move away. Now I just pulled her in closer and she kept pulling me closer and pushing at same time.

Let me see how it goes.


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## SimplyAmorous

This is seriously one of the saddest threads I have ever read here... I responded to a post of yours the other day.. without realizing the extent of your story, and the endless years of pain, rejection & unhappiness you have lived, and now resign yourself to.

If anything can come out of your sharing here.. another asked why you are here ...(You answer below)...I agree with what you said ...to spare others this fate .... Get out QUICK!! Life is too short !



Holdingontoit said:


> *To set an example of what not to do. To act as a warning to HDs not to let the situation fester to long, because it can destroy you.*


----------



## john117

UMP said:


> Can you ever win a game without even trying to shoot?
> 
> All I am saying is that maybe she might dig him to shoot at half court, facing the other basket, under his legs. Nothin but net.
> 
> Again, since the score has been zero to zero, for years, there ain't much to lose.
> 
> Get in the stands and shoot from there.


There's nothing to be gained by playing or even winning - the result is eerie similar to an ONS, in a bad way.

Remember what I write about moving forward . This ain't it.

I put my effort not to court or date my wife - a pointless exercise - but to better the rest of the family, myself included. So far my plans gave all cone to fruition as I anticipated. She's a distraction. She had her chance, nearly a decade, to turn it around. Now it's too little too late.

I keep on my cycling, try to take care of myself, and minimize contact with her. And plan my exit.


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## bilbag

Holdingontoit said:


> Good night on bonding last night. Came home from work relatively early and we watched tv. H2 snuggled close (unusual). She reached for my package (unheard of). She stroked me erect. I asked her what she was doing. She said she is allowed. I did not disagree. I pulled her close to kiss her. She did not want to kiss. She did not want me to tend to her. she just wanted me to climb aboard and "do my business". We went back to watching tv. Pleasant but still totally disconnected. She wants me to initiate and then accept starfish sex. I refuse to accept her zoning out and allowing me to use her as a masturbatory aid. Several nice hugs this morning so no bad fallout from turning her down.


Although she is not able to enjoy sex, she seems to care about pleasuring you. She is a willing partner. I would take that over going solo (or a blowup doll as someone recommended me previously). Maybe she can use a pocket pussie on you, the one inspired by Meghan Malone...I hear good reviews from fellow members.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117

She cares enough to do it once a year. Sounds like a willing partner alright


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## bilbag

john117 said:


> She cares enough to do it once a year. Sounds like a willing partner alright


Are you suggesting once a year is not enough?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

bilbag said:


> Are you suggesting once a year is not enough?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I must have missed the humor here


----------



## Holdingontoit

bilbag said:


> she seems to care about pleasuring you. She is a willing partner. I would take that over going solo


I used to feel that way. Now I prefer solo over a willing but zoned out partner trying to ignore what is happening to her body.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Pleasant weekend. Much time with H2. She offered sex on Monday. I turned her down. She seems uncertain as to why. I guess we need to talk again so it is clear.


----------



## NotEasy

I always agree with talking. 

And maybe it may end up with surprises all around. 
Firstly I think we here may know your thought processes better than she does, and really she should know you better than we do.
Secondly I wonder if you know the current person she is. The cancer she has gone through may have changed her view of herself and how she wants to live her life from now on. Your staying by her and supporting her may have changed her view of you for the better. So she might now be a different person wanting a different relationship. 

Or maybe I am just wishing for a magic solution to this sad situation.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@NotEasy: You are wishing for a magic solution.

H2 has a female friend from before we got married who just got divorced. Woman is rich and good looking. Woman asked H2 if they could go on vacation together. H2 asked me for my thoughts and I said I do not like the idea. We have tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt, 2 kids in college, and she wants to go on vacation alone with her recently divorced friend? Also, the woman friend is going to attract all kinds of male attention and, newly divorced, is entirely free to indulge and soak up as much attention as she likes. I hope she goes on vacation and has a great time. Whatever she needs to do to reaffirm her value in the dating marketplace is fine with me. But my wife is NOT single and I don't want her on vacation far from home with a woman who may well be seeking to encourage male attention.

To her credit, H2 said "OK, week long vacation with her is out, and don't worry, I have no intention of cheating."

Later I told H2: if you feel deprived and tempted to turn to another man, let me know and we can work something out sexually. I don't want you to feel deprived. Feeling deprived stinks.
H2 told me not to worry that she doesn't feel deprived and she isn't looking to have sex with anyone.

So for those of you hoping that H2's new post-cancer attitude might result in her and I rekindling our sex life, does not seem likely. I take this as confirmation that not having any sex with her is the correct decision. Thoughts?


----------



## anonmd

Why are you asking, do you not believe her?


----------



## Holdingontoit

@anonmd: I believe she does not want sex with me. Not sure I believe she does not want sex with anyone. But that could easily be me projecting. That is why I am asking for outside input from people who are not as emotionally invested in the outcome.


----------



## UMP

I think she was testing to see if you would be jealous.

She's interested in you, believe it or not.


----------



## anonmd

Maybe ask her that. 

I forget whether or not you have explained to her exactly why you are doing what you are doing, or NOT doing . 

You are pursuing not having sex because she has proven over many years to be incapable do to her baggage from prior abuse and unwillingness to seek treatment which is so bad you won't allow her the opportunity to stomp all over your heart yet again. Did I get that right? 

So ask her, you are afraid she'd be interested in someone else if she had the opportunity to start with a fresh no knowledge of history slate. See what she says and how she reacts, after the period you two have just come through you might be surprised at a very strong response.


----------



## UMP

anonmd said:


> Maybe ask her that.
> 
> I forget whether or not you have explained to her exactly why you are doing what you are doing, or NOT doing .
> 
> You are pursuing not having sex because she has proven over many years to be incapable do to her baggage from prior abuse and unwillingness to seek treatment which is so bad you won't allow her the opportunity to stomp all over your heart yet again. Did I get that right?
> 
> So ask her, you are afraid she'd be interested in someone else if she had the opportunity to start with a fresh no knowledge of history slate. See what she says and how she reacts, after the period you two have just come through you might be surprised at a very strong response.



My suggestion for Holdinontoit is some testosterone cream for about a month.
Prescription for Viagra and test it out by himself on an empty stomach.
Start jelqing to get some blood flow in that bad boy.

Then pounce. She won't know what hit her.:grin2:

I think she is testing the waters because she wants Holdingontoit to stop holding on to it.


----------



## john117

A perfect psyops experiment. In theory she should have realized where it's headed but noooooooo, she tried to play a bit coy, "don't worry" type thing.


----------



## john117

UMP said:


> My suggestion for Holdinontoit is some testosterone cream for about a month.
> Prescription for Viagra and test it out by himself on an empty stomach.
> Start jelqing to get some blood flow in that bad boy.
> 
> Then pounce. She won't know what hit her.:grin2:
> 
> I think she is testing the waters because she wants Holdingontoit to stop holding on to it.


And once she filled up her tank for the next quarter, what then?

Remember what the L stands for in LD


----------



## UMP

john117 said:


> And once she filled up her tank for the next quarter, what then?
> 
> Remember what the L stands for in LD


Personally I think she needs/wants Mr. holdingontoit to come get some. I get the impression she needs a man to TAKE what he wants from her, more or less.

The question is, is it better to have sex 4 times a year or nothing at all?

He's already proven to her and himself that he can live without sex indefinitely, if needed. 
I think if I were in his shoes, I would pick the 4 times.


----------



## john117

UMP said:


> The question is, is it better to have sex 4 times a year or nothing at all?
> 
> He's already proven to her and himself that he can live without sex indefinitely, if needed.
> I think if I were in his shoes, I would pick the 4 times.


(And that's why I spent a decade in college  )

Let's say you're in the desert and have to walk for a week to the nearest oasis. You have seven bottles of water, not nearly enough for a day, let alone seven, of walking. 

You're basically DOA. Regardless of choice.

Do you try to stretch out the misery over seven days, or take a shower and off yourself? Human nature says try to make it. Good luck with that.

To make it you need a case of water which you don't have.


----------



## UMP

john117 said:


> (And that's why I spent a decade in college  )
> 
> Let's say you're in the desert and have to walk for a week to the nearest oasis. You have seven bottles of water, not nearly enough for a day, let alone seven, of walking.
> 
> You're basically DOA. Regardless of choice.
> 
> Do you try to stretch out the misery over seven days, or take a shower and off yourself? Human nature says try to make it. Good luck with that.
> 
> To make it you need a case of water which you don't have.


He's proven to me that he's a camel.

Start walking.


----------



## Holdingontoit

UMP said:


> Personally I think she needs/wants Mr. holdingontoit to come get some. I get the impression she needs a man to TAKE what he wants from her, more or less.


I agree, with a caveat. Yes, she wants to be taken. That is what turns her on. It also terrifies her, because as a rape victim, she fears not being in control or having the ability to say 'no'. Understandable, but a lousy combination with dominance triggering her arousal.

So when she is feeling very safe and loved, she wants to be taken. But once she is taken a time or two, the fear takes over and she needs to reassert her control by saying no over and over again until she is satisfied her partner WILL take 'no' for an answer.



> The question is, is it better to have sex 4 times a year or nothing at all?


Everyone has to decide for themselves. I prefer nothing at all. I don't want to be on the seesaw. Someone else, more compatible for her, wouldn't mind riding the sine wave or would be able to provide sufficient safety for her that she never pulled back.

To me, having a taste every so often and then being rejected for long periods in between is more painful than just saying 'never again'. YMMV.


----------



## john117

UMP said:


> He's proven to me that he's a camel.
> 
> Start walking.


Camels are designed to deal with it. Not humans


----------



## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree, with a caveat. Yes, she wants to be taken. That is what turns her on. It also terrifies her, because as a rape victim, she fears not being in control or having the ability to say 'no'. Understandable, but a lousy combination with dominance triggering her arousal.
> 
> So when she is feeling very safe and loved, she wants to be taken. But once she is taken a time or two, the fear takes over and she needs to reassert her control by saying no over and over again until she is satisfied her partner WILL take 'no' for an answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has to decide for themselves. I prefer nothing at all. I don't want to be on the seesaw. Someone else, more compatible for her, wouldn't mind riding the sine wave or would be able to provide sufficient safety for her that she never pulled back.
> 
> To me, having a taste every so often and then being rejected for long periods in between is more painful than just saying 'never again'. YMMV.


This is about the most clear post I've read on TAM in a while. that's exactly what it is.


----------



## UMP

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree, with a caveat. Yes, she wants to be taken. That is what turns her on. It also terrifies her, because as a rape victim, she fears not being in control or having the ability to say 'no'. Understandable, but a lousy combination with dominance triggering her arousal.
> 
> So when she is feeling very safe and loved, she wants to be taken. But once she is taken a time or two, the fear takes over and she needs to reassert her control by saying no over and over again until she is satisfied her partner WILL take 'no' for an answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone has to decide for themselves. I prefer nothing at all. I don't want to be on the seesaw. Someone else, more compatible for her, wouldn't mind riding the sine wave or would be able to provide sufficient safety for her that she never pulled back.
> 
> To me, having a taste every so often and then being rejected for long periods in between is more painful than just saying 'never again'. YMMV.


I can understand that.
It just seems so final to me. I always want to have hope for you.


----------



## bilbag

Holdingontoit said:


> @UMP: I am not looking for her to get me off. She is willing to do that. I am looking for her to let me get her off. She refuses to allow me into her sexual world. Not the one in her private parts. The one inside her head. Until she grants me access to her mental world, I am not granting her access to my physical world.


She doesn't seem to be refusing now. She has trouble feeling sexy. Don't punish her for that. 
I realize you don't find other women attractive. Do you still find her attractive?
My wife is LD but lately her hormones have spiked up. She said she has been watching Axl Rose in recent concerts with GunsNRoses and ACDC. He's not as cute as he was 25yrs ago but he still reminds fans of great music in the past. He can't do his serpentine moves like before. But watching him got her back to her mental state of yesteryears. And it made her feel sexier again. 
You still find your wife attractive and you love her. That is enough incentive to be patient and open to having a sexual relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Holdingontoit

@UMP and @bilbag: Thanks for chiming in. Always great to hear form optimists.

You are correct that H2 isn't refusing to have starfish sex. But she is refusing to share her sexuality with me. Well, probably with herself too. Given her past she doesn't want to open that door. Certainly not dive deeply within. If I am content to let her lie there and dissociate, she would be willing to consent. If I want us to connect and for sex to be an interactive activity, she runs away.

H2 didn't have trouble feeling sexy before. She was terrified of it. Because if she were sexy, then she was vulnerable and men would assault her. So she didn't fail to feel sexy, she refused to feel sexy. Now, with the surgery, she may have trouble viewing herself as still sexy. That would explain why she now seems to enjoy and appreciate the compliments that she rejected in the past. In what way do you think I am punishing her? Just today I told her that if she feels sexually deprived, she should come to me and we will work something out to meet her need. She stated she doesn't have any need. I can't see how I am punishing her by withholding something she doesn't want or need. I absolutely will withhold from her the power to control me by doling out crappy sex in sporadic and insufficient quantity.

I never said I do not find other women attractive. I do not find MYSELF attractive. I do not find the idea of sex with other women an attractive proposition because I am ashamed of my body, penis size, fitness (lack of), technique (lack of), etc. Trust me, I find plenty of women attractive. Including my wife. I keep myself unable to have quality sex precisely because I DO find so many women attractive, and if I felt myself capable of having decent sex with them than watching them pass by every day while I remain sexless would be excruciating torture. Exquisite (and as a masochist I appreciate that). But still excruciating.

Patient? Can you think of a more patient man than me? This is not the first year I have gone entirely without sex, and the entirety of our 20+ year marriage we never had sex more often than once every 2 or 3 weeks (sporadic with months of sexlessness in between). I can wait the rest of my life if need be (and I expect it will). As for being open to having a sexual relationship with her, I am. Just not one where she lies there pretending not to be there and ignoring what is happening to her body and wishing it would end soon. If she comes to me with a willingness to share her sexuality with me rather than locking it behind gates and moats and walls and barbed wire and turrets, I am here for her. At that point, I am all over UMP's suggestion to hit the T gel and the blue pill and the gym and do my best to rock her world. Until then, I remain in my cave, waiting patiently.


----------



## 2020hindsight

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree, with a caveat. Yes, she wants to be taken. That is what turns her on. It also terrifies her, because as a rape victim, she fears not being in control or having the ability to say 'no'. Understandable, but a lousy combination with dominance triggering her arousal.
> 
> So when she is feeling very safe and loved, she wants to be taken. But once she is taken a time or two, the fear takes over and she needs to reassert her control by saying no over and over again until she is satisfied her partner WILL take 'no' for an answer.


I find it extremely difficult to believe that this is how your wife has explained herself to you. It sounds like a story that you have cooked up about her motivations in your own mind. Speaking as a very LD woman, I find that your story seems highly unlikely to match her reality. Did it actually come from her?

From all accounts, your wife seems like a woman who is personally indifferent to sex in general, although she may recognize that it is considered normal to have some from time to time in a marriage, by convention. Maybe her gestures toward sexual availability in your direction is her trying to reassure herself that her marriage is a normal one, and that you still love her, rather than the farfetched scenario you (IMO) mistakenly attribute to her.


----------



## 2020hindsight

Holdingontoit said:


> @UMP and @bilbag: Thanks for chiming in. Always great to hear form optimists.
> 
> H2 isn't refusing to have starfish sex. She is refusing to share her sexuality with me. Well, probably with herself too. Given her past she doesn't want to open that door. Certainly not dive deeply within. If I am content to let her lie there and dissociate, she would be willing to consent. If I want us to connect and for sex to be an interactive activity, she runs away.
> 
> H2 didn't have trouble feeling sexy before. She was terrified of it. Because if she were sexy, then she was vulnerable and men would assault her. So she didn't fail to feel sexy, she refused to feel sexy. Now, with the surgery, she may have trouble viewing herself as still sexy. That would explain why she now seems to enjoy and appreciate the compliments that she rejected in the past.
> 
> I never said I do not find other women attractive. I do not find MYSELF attractive. I do not find the idea of sex with other women an attractive proposition because I am ashamed of my body, penis size, fitness (lack of), technique (lack of), etc. Trust me, I find plenty of women attractive. Including my wife. I keep myself unable to have quality sex precisely because I DO find so many women attractive, and if I felt myself capable of having decent sex with them than watching them pass by every day while I remain sexless would be excruciating torture. Exquisite (and as a masochist I appreciate that). But still excruciating.
> 
> Patient? Can you think of a more patient man than me? This is not the first year I have gone entirely without sex, and the entirety of our 20+ year marriage we never had sex more often than once every 2 or 3 weeks (sporadic with months of sexlessness in between). I can wait the rest of my life if need be (and I expect it will). As for being open to having a sexual relationship with her, I am. Just not one where she lies there pretending not to be there and ignoring what is happening to her body and wishing it would end soon. If she comes to me with a willingness to share her sexuality with me rather than locking it behind gates and moats and walls and barbed wire and turrets, I am here for her. At that point, I am all over UMP's suggestion to hit the T gel and the blue pill and the gym and do my best to rock her world. Until then, I remain in my cave, waiting patiently.


What you ask may be completely beyond her power. I have to ask, share *what* sexuality? She shows all signs of having none. How can she share what she doesn't have?


----------



## Holdingontoit

2020hindsight said:


> Did it actually come from her?


Yes. Over the years of St and MC, tidbits slipped out. She hates to admit them. So it comes out in pieces. But all the components came from her.



> Maybe her gestures toward sexual availability in your direction is her trying to reassure herself that her marriage is a normal one, and that you still love her, rather than the farfetched scenario you (IMO) mistakenly attribute to her.


There is certainly an aspect of this. She wants to believe our sex life is normal for long time married couples. She wants to believe not only that I still love her but that I still feel desire for her and that I won't leave her to have sex with someone else. She doesn't seem to realize that sporadic sex doesn't bond me to her, it pushes me away. I enjoy our time together more now that we don't have any sex than I did when we occasionally had sex.


----------



## Holdingontoit

2020hindsight said:


> What you ask may be completely beyond her power. I have to ask, share *what* sexuality? She shows all signs of having none. How can she share what she doesn't have?


I suspect it is. That is why I do not place any demands on her to have sex. If she has no sexuality to share, and the most she can do is lie there silent and motionless, then we simply won't have sex.

We had a very long thread about this on another discussion forum a few years ago. Analogizing to a person being a box of 64 crayons and you ask your spouse for them to let you borrow their yellow crayon. And they reply that they don't have a yellow crayon. And they ask if you can be happy with red or blue or green. Because they have 64 colors and they are sure one or more of them will please you. But no, you need a partner with a yellow crayon to be happy. It may well be that they do not have a yellow crayon to share with you. And it may well be that you cannot be happy if they don't. Tragic on both sides.

I am well aware that she may not have a yellow crayon in her box. I am not demanding that she produce one. I am simply saying I will not be drawing any pictures of sunny skies if she doesn't. Because that picture, to me, requires a yellow crayon. Oh yes, we can draw forests and mountains and seascapes. But the sky in all my drawings will be grey and overcast. Because she has no yellow crayon with which to draw the sun.

I am not a great man much less perfect. I have flaws. There are many colors missing in my box of crayons. I recognize this. I have stopped insisting she produce a yellow crayon. That doesn't mean I don't wish she had one.


----------



## NotEasy

Let me pad out the 'magical solution' I was thinking about in the last post. I may be an optimist, but, sorry, in your case I don't see great sex included in any likely future. Sex wasn't mentioned in my last post because I don't see a path leading to it. Physical changes are easy, sexuality changes are harder. Of cause anything is possible, but it takes a bigger optimist than me to see it.

The 'magical solution' after the cancer recovery is that she knows you are seriously committed to her and she responds with love and friendship. To me reading this thread the love and friendship seems the problem, the lack of sex is a by-product not the cause. She has painful core issue, caused by rape, her past, etc, that keep her isolated from any friendship or closeness to you.
The physical act of sex (or star fish sex) is not your real problem, it is the lack of closeness. Of course for men real sex would create closeness, but that's not happening. And star-fish sex doesn't help achieve closeness. So in this case sex isn't the way to closeness.
Part of the magical solution is that she now sees you differently. You are the person who stuck by her. You are not just another male, who because of gender is like all other males, like the rapist, uncaring. You are someone worth being with.
The magical solution I see is closeness, friendship, love.

And maybe, perhaps, eventually, possibly that leads to sex, .... but probably not.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@NotEasy: well, if that is the measuring stick, then we already have it. We get along so much better lately. So much more Affection and Admiration and Respect from her toward me than in the past. Today she was literally crying because she loves me so much. That is a beautiful thing. Just like her. And yes, I told her I noticed and thanked her for it.

But no, it isn't going to lead to sex. She simply does not have a yellow crayon in her crayon box.


----------



## NotEasy

Holdingontoit said:


> @*NotEasy*: well, if that is the measuring stick, then we already have it. We get along so much better lately. So much more Affection and Admiration and Respect from her toward me than in the past. Today she was literally crying because she loves me so much. That is a beautiful thing. Just like her. And yes, I told her I noticed and thanked her for it.
> 
> But no, it isn't going to lead to sex. She simply does not have a yellow crayon in her crayon box.


Certainly you already have improved friendship, affection etc. My thought is this can now be improved much more. 

The sadness I see in this thread is not particularly from the lack of sex. That is sad, especially that you have agreed and contributed to it, but the saddest part seems the distance and lack of trying to make each other happy. It seems like that is improving and can be improved much more.


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## farsidejunky

NotEasy said:


> Let me pad out the 'magical solution' I was thinking about in the last post. I may be an optimist, but, sorry, in your case I don't see great sex included in any likely future. Sex wasn't mentioned in my last post because I don't see a path leading to it. Physical changes are easy, sexuality changes are harder. Of cause anything is possible, but it takes a bigger optimist than me to see it.
> 
> The 'magical solution' after the cancer recovery is that she knows you are seriously committed to her and she responds with love and friendship. To me reading this thread the love and friendship seems the problem, the lack of sex is a by-product not the cause. She has painful core issue, caused by rape, her past, etc, that keep her isolated from any friendship or closeness to you.
> The physical act of sex (or star fish sex) is not your real problem, it is the lack of closeness. Of course for men real sex would create closeness, but that's not happening. And star-fish sex doesn't help achieve closeness. So in this case sex isn't the way to closeness.
> Part of the magical solution is that she now sees you differently. You are the person who stuck by her. You are not just another male, who because of gender is like all other males, like the rapist, uncaring. You are someone worth being with.
> The magical solution I see is closeness, friendship, love.
> 
> And maybe, perhaps, eventually, possibly that leads to sex, .... but probably not.


Until sex enters the picture. Then the triggers lead him to be painted the old way.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@NotEasy: Agree it is sad. But I am bound and determined to stay here. You wish for a not sad outcome. I know that, as long as I do not get treatment for my depression, there isn't one. @Personal: Yes, both low drive. @farsidejunky: Yes, if sex were re-introduced, all the triggers come back and I am the bad man who wants to rape her. That is the flip side. I won't get treatment for my depression. She won't get treatment for her PTSD.

H2 and I get along. We share devotion to our children. Best outcome for the universe is for us to stay together and not foist our 2 broken selves on 2 other unsuspecting people. I am doing my best to have "us" continue. My best includes not having sex and arranging my inner mental world so that not having sex is acceptable. Only crazy from the outside looking in. From the inside, it makes sense.


----------



## john117

You can be devoted to your children but hate each other's guts...


----------



## Personal

...


----------



## Holdingontoit

@john117: what does hating each other's guts have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that most married people DON'T hate each other's guts? Are you suggesting that hating the other person's guts is reason enough to end the marriage? You and I both know that isn't always true. Well, it may be true, but we both know people who have "reason enough" who choose not to end their marriages. Reason enough is not always reason enough. But I still luvs ya buddy.



Personal said:


> I don't think it's a bad thing that both of you share a low drive.


 @Personal: You are looking at it from an absolute / objective level. How do we compare to most other people. On that scale both of us are low. Nothing wrong with being on the low end of the scale. Two people who are both low can be very happy together.

The problems in marriage however, are not about objective levels, but rather about comparative levels. So even though both of us are low compared to most people, I am much higher than her. That leads to huge conflict even though my needs are far less than the typical male's. It doesn't help her that I only want sex 1 or 2 times a week if she wants it not at all. I still want it infinitely more than she does.

So in our marriage I am the HD spouse even if I am willing to do without sex to a far greater extent than most men.


----------



## john117

Most married people tolerate each other and some even like each other. A small number actually love each other lolz.

Now the question is, how much to tolerate and why? And what's the long term plan? 

As much as I hate my wife I really like how the plans I laid out five years ago have come to fruition. And, sad to say, those plans would have been pipedreams without her money. She got a lot out of it, as did I. So it's even. 

Hating each other is not reason to end it here and now but is a harbinger of things to come. I'm a great caregiver. This morning I administered ear wax cleaning to my wife. Omg I was ready to drive her to the ER  she's outright nasty for such things, impatient, not very pleasant, the works. That's the person I want to spent my final moments with?


----------



## Holdingontoit

@john117: Long term plan is to stay married to my wife and love her as best I can. There are many things to love about her. The older I get, the less the lack of sex interferes with focusing on that.


----------



## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> @john117: Long term plan is to stay married to my wife and love her as best I can. There are many things to love about her. The older I get, the less the lack of sex interferes with focusing on that.


I could say the same about my cat. I know it's not a great thing to say but it's quite real.


----------



## bilbag

Holdingontoit said:


> @UMP and @bilbag: Thanks for chiming in. Always great to hear form optimists.
> 
> You are correct that H2 isn't refusing to have starfish sex. But she is refusing to share her sexuality with me. Well, probably with herself too. Given her past she doesn't want to open that door. Certainly not dive deeply within. If I am content to let her lie there and dissociate, she would be willing to consent. If I want us to connect and for sex to be an interactive activity, she runs away.
> 
> H2 didn't have trouble feeling sexy before. She was terrified of it. Because if she were sexy, then she was vulnerable and men would assault her. So she didn't fail to feel sexy, she refused to feel sexy. Now, with the surgery, she may have trouble viewing herself as still sexy. That would explain why she now seems to enjoy and appreciate the compliments that she rejected in the past. In what way do you think I am punishing her? Just today I told her that if she feels sexually deprived, she should come to me and we will work something out to meet her need. She stated she doesn't have any need. I can't see how I am punishing her by withholding something she doesn't want or need. I absolutely will withhold from her the power to control me by doling out crappy sex in sporadic and insufficient quantity.
> 
> I never said I do not find other women attractive. I do not find MYSELF attractive. I do not find the idea of sex with other women an attractive proposition because I am ashamed of my body, penis size, fitness (lack of), technique (lack of), etc. Trust me, I find plenty of women attractive. Including my wife. I keep myself unable to have quality sex precisely because I DO find so many women attractive, and if I felt myself capable of having decent sex with them than watching them pass by every day while I remain sexless would be excruciating torture. Exquisite (and as a masochist I appreciate that). But still excruciating.
> 
> Patient? Can you think of a more patient man than me? This is not the first year I have gone entirely without sex, and the entirety of our 20+ year marriage we never had sex more often than once every 2 or 3 weeks (sporadic with months of sexlessness in between). I can wait the rest of my life if need be (and I expect it will). As for being open to having a sexual relationship with her, I am. Just not one where she lies there pretending not to be there and ignoring what is happening to her body and wishing it would end soon. If she comes to me with a willingness to share her sexuality with me rather than locking it behind gates and moats and walls and barbed wire and turrets, I am here for her. At that point, I am all over UMP's suggestion to hit the T gel and the blue pill and the gym and do my best to rock her world. Until then, I remain in my cave, waiting patiently.


Patience is good. I appreciate your patience with me as well. I'm relatively new here and you've been very kind and welcoming. Thanks.
As an optimist , it was possible because my wife gave it to me. Without her show of love, I would be a pessimist regarding the outlook of sex in our marriage. So it is much easier for me to be optimistic at this time than for you. But previously, I was more pessimistic than you because my wife offered no sex at all, not even starfish. I don't know what that really feels like but I still think it is better than nothing. 
There is nothing wrong with how you are going about your sexlessness as long as you feel it is your best solution. I do think that you should not think yourself as unattractive. I also think that you should not be ashamed of your body. Such incorrect ideas would make you depressed and that is not a good solution. I am certain that some women will find you attractive for your character and physical qualities. A quick google search shows that fitness and muscular build are at bottom of list anyways, and it's impossible to be good at all things. Your wife finds you attractive, based on the criteria below, right?!!!!! (You should exercise to stay healthy though.) 

The Top 20 Traits Women Want in a Man
..................................................................................................
Results
We organized traits and characteristics according to the percentage of women who ranked them within the top 10 attributes. Women rated traits relating to character and personality much higher than they scored those reflecting physical attractiveness. For example, only 13 percent of women included muscular build as a requisite for hotness, while 66 percent placed moral integrity as a "make me quiver" characteristic. Check out the supporting data.

Top 5 Character Traits

84%
1. Faithfulness
More than 8 out of 10 women rated "faithful to me" in the top 10 attributes they find sexy in a man. A woman's tendency toward attachment is a biological imperative, a matter of raising offspring right. Reassure her (often) that you're not going anywhere.

75%
2. Dependability
Three out of four women say they look for a man who makes commitments and follows through. Being responsible—even if it's just remembering to pick up salad dressing on your way over to her place—sends a positive signal that someday you might commit.

67%
3. Kindness
Young women may still fall for the bad-boy type, but more-mature women are turned on by kindness, because kindness inspires confidence. In other words, if you treat the waitress well, your date figures you'll treat her well, too.

66%
4. Moral Integrity
Having the guts to tell the truth means to a woman that you have the guts to be a good, caring, decent partner over the long haul. White lies are okay; just avoid any that are tinged with gray.

51%
5. Fatherliness
Being a good dad (or having the potential to become one) is about being a good role model—and about being patient and caring, qualities women like in a partner. If you're not a father, then tell her about your favorite niece or nephew, or the employee you're mentoring at work.

Top 5 Personality Traits

77%
1. Sense of Humor
Being able to laugh at the stresses of this world is a must, according to the women on our panel. You get bonus points if you can make them laugh. Humor tells a woman that you can laugh at—read, handle easily—the many difficulties that life throws at you.

55%
2. Intelligence
A worldy, interesting man is a man she likes to show off. Men who are take-charge problem solvers make women feel secure, and men who are always improving are never boring.

46%
3. Passion
Why have women always melted for musicians? Because rock stars are passionate in public. Women like displays of passion because they're not accustomed to seeing them from men. Get passionate about something: kayaking, impressionistic art, barbecuing, or Habitat for Humanity. It's proof that you care for and about something beyond yourself.

41%
4. Confidence
A man who feels secure in his own skin makes the woman he's with feel secure. By showing you can handle unfamiliar people or situations, you tell the woman in your life that she need not fear, either.

38%
5. Generosity
This is more important to women over 35 than it is to those under that age. Generosity, however, doesn't just mean springing for dinner at a four-star. Your willingness to give your time and lend your ear is what women crave.

Top 5 Practical Skills

53%
1. Listening
Pay attention. A woman feels safe and secure when she knows her man will put down his BlackBerry and listen to her. Magic words: "I'm here. Tell me everything."

48%
2. Romancing
Romance appeals to a woman's right-brained, less-logical side. Every woman fantasizes about being swept off her feet. Romance is bold because you're displaying your desire for a woman and revealing a softer, more vulnerable side that women find irresistible.


35%
3. Being Good in Bed
It's not just the orgasms. A woman knows that a man who takes care of her in bed will take care of her out of bed. (Of course, the orgasms don't hurt.) Your enthusiasm for her body is more important than your sexual prowess.

23%
4. Cooking, Cleaning, etc.
Self-sufficiency means you're not going to expect her to be like your mother. Learn how to make one or two killer breakfasts or dinners, and you'll win her heart.

21%
5. Earning Potential
One in five women surveyed said a man's successfulness in his career contributes to his sexiness. If you've demonstrated talent, goal achievement, and follow-through, you give women confidence that you will be a good provider.

Top 5 Physical Attributes

30%
1. Sense of Style
The way you dress reflects on the woman you're with, and she knows it. The man who knows how to match a patterned shirt and tie will notice when she's dressed well, too. (And maybe he'll pay for the Blahniks.) Keep your tailor and your dry cleaner busy, and spring for posh, touchable fabrics like cashmere, suede, pima cotton, and brushed corduroy.

26%
2. Handsome Face
The science of attraction, which has been studied ad infinitum, says it's all about symmetry. Imagine you have a dotted red line (Nip/Tuck style) vertically through the center of your face, down your nose. Are your features similar in form and arrangement on both sides of the line? Do your eyes and ears match up? The closer one side mirrors the other, the more attractive you are. Women in cross-cultural studies have also ranked men with broad chins, high cheekbones, and large eyes as the most attractive. Best way to improve your looks: Smile more, and make certain your sideburns are even.

15%
3. Height
Tall, dark, and handsome isn't the be-all and end-all. Women say they like feeling smaller than their men, but height doesn't necessarily mean might. They will feel comfortable as long as they aren't towering over you.

13%
4. Muscular Build 
Spend more time with the bathroom mirror and less time with the gym mirror. Nearly three times as many women value a clean-shaven face over the clean and jerk. Muscles help ward off rivals and assure a woman that you won't drop her during a dip, but your overall appearance is more important than the size of your biceps.

12%
5. Fitness
Women recognize a good body as indicative of a man of discipline and self-control. It tells a woman you can keep up with her, in bed and out.


----------



## Holdingontoit

bilbag said:


> But previously, I was more pessimistic than you because my wife offered no sex at all, not even starfish. I don't know what that really feels like but I still think it is better than nothing.


I am happy you don't know what starfish sex is like. Trust me, it is worse than no sex at all. At least when that is the only kind of sex on offer. If many sessions are mutual and interactive, and every once in a while she "takes one for the team", then that is a precious gift. But if EVERY session is her lying there wishing she were elsewhere and wishing the session to end, that is truly awful. Much worse than no sex.

Of course, the worst off all is when a man does not realize that starfish sex is so much worse than no sex. That means he doesn't care about how the experience is for his partner and just wants to use her to get off. I was that way for far too long. Yet another brick in my wall of shame.


----------



## bilbag

Holdingontoit said:


> I am happy you don't know what starfish sex is like. Trust me, it is worse than no sex at all. At least when that is the only kind of sex on offer. If many sessions are mutual and interactive, and every once in a while she "takes one for the team", then that is a precious gift. But if EVERY session is her lying there wishing she were elsewhere and wishing the session to end, that is truly awful. Much worse than no sex.
> 
> Of course, the worst off all is when a man does not realize that starfish sex is so much worse than no sex. That means he doesn't care about how the experience is for his partner and just wants to use her to get off. I was that way for far too long. Yet another brick in my wall of shame.


During the tough years I asked for any kind of sex, and I would have accepted starfish. But I would probably create a lot of design of experiments to try to bring the starfish back to life. There's a lot of stuff you can get in eBay or Amazon for the trials.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

bilbag said:


> During the tough years I asked for any kind of sex, and I would have accepted starfish. But I would probably create a lot of design of experiments to try to bring the starfish back to life. There's a lot of stuff you can get in eBay or Amazon for the trials.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The starfish is unlikely to even be in the same zip code with any kind of pleasure enhancement apparatus...


----------



## Holdingontoit

Copied from another thread so as not to hijack.



MEM2020 said:


> Holding,
> 
> That's really difficult. I do believe - if asked - you should say what's true. Not in the harsh manner below - more along the lines of:
> 
> For most of the marriage you made it clear you weren't attracted to me, and in general weren't that 'into me'. You treated me a lot better after you got sick, and that's nice. But I don't really trust you and resent that you had to get cancer to feel towards me the way I've always felt towards you. And that's why - I have declined - when you have signaled you would 'let me' have sex with you.
> 
> That my man is what we call TrueSpeech around here. It's clear, concise and solely driven by the desire to be understood.
> 
> It connects behavior (hers) to feelings (yours) and wraps up with how that gets expressed in behaviors (yours).


I am not interested in TrueSpeech. I want to maintain the status quo. I am lazy and fearful and do not wish to invest the time and energy that would be required to enable H2 and me to be happy together sexually. I like feeling justified in putting forth less than 100% effort. In order to feel justified in giving our marriage less than my best, I have to maintain a substantial level of resentment. TrueSpeech might trigger changes in H2 that would make it more difficult for me to maintain my level of resentment. I have no intention of going there.

Then there is the fear of failure. What if we started having lots of sex and H2 had justifiable complaints about my performance? I could not tolerate that. No, at this point I have maneuvered the focus of our marriage to shine on the ways in which she falls short and what a generous and loving guy I am to accept her, warts and all. I have no desire for the focus of our marriage to shift onto those areas where I fall short. Literally as well as figuratively.

You are absolutely correct in what you suggest. But I am adamantly opposed to taking your good advice. I only do TrueSpeech on forums. Not IRL.


----------



## MrsAldi

How many times has she approached you for sex? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

Once or twice before the surgery. Once or twice after. Not in several months. Why do you ask?


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## MrsAldi

Holdingontoit said:


> Once or twice before the surgery. Once or twice after. Not in several months. Why do you ask?


I seen on another thread that she was a bit more open with you (wearing lingerie?), think it was one of the RP threads a while back, I thought she may have been more interested in being intimate but probably looking for you to compliment her. 
I hope that both of you are still enjoying some affection together, has that improved? 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

MrsAldi said:


> I seen on another thread that she was a bit more open with you (wearing lingerie?), think it was one of the RP threads a while back, I thought she may have been more interested in being intimate but probably looking for you to compliment her.
> I hope that both of you are still enjoying some affection together, has that improved?


She wears comfortable cotton sleepwear. Nothing designed to turn on one's partner. No big deal, since I am not looking to be turned on. I do give her a wolf whistle if I get a glimpse of boob or butt while she is changing into her sleepwear. Which she is more open to doing in my presence now that sex is off the table.

As for affection, yes, much much more than before. That is by far the best part of giving up sex. More holding hands. More pecks on the cheek. More verbal affirmations that she enjoys being married to me. Now she seem unafraid to show affection, because she knows it will not lead to sex.


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,
What makes M2 irresistible is TrueSpeech. 

She says this type stuff and I am overpoewered. Just saying...




Holdingontoit said:


> Copied from another thread so as not to hijack.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not interested in TrueSpeech. I want to maintain the status quo. I am lazy and fearful and do not wish to invest the time and energy that would be required to enable H2 and me to be happy together sexually. I like feeling justified in putting forth less than 100% effort. In order to feel justified in giving our marriage less than my best, I have to maintain a substantial level of resentment. TrueSpeech might trigger changes in H2 that would make it more difficult for me to maintain my level of resentment. I have no intention of going there.
> 
> Then there is the fear of failure. What if we started having lots of sex and H2 had justifiable complaints about my performance? I could not tolerate that. No, at this point I have maneuvered the focus of our marriage to shine on the ways in which she falls short and what a generous and loving guy I am to accept her, warts and all. I have no desire for the focus of our marriage to shift onto those areas where I fall short. Literally as well as figuratively.
> 
> You are absolutely correct in what you suggest. But I am adamantly opposed to taking your good advice. I only do TrueSpeech on forums. Not IRL.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Sorry Mem, but H2 is not you. We had 8 years of MC. Much truth was spoken. Had no impact on her. If anything, it made me LESS desirable in her eyes.

She doesn't want TrueSpeech. She wants strong and silent. She is like M2. She is fierce and desires someone who can match her fierceness. I am not that man. I am not going to try, and humiliate myself by failing. Your wife is willing to put up with your 6 level fierceness because of your 9 or 10 level in so many other areas. H2 is not interested in my 1 level fierceness and does not view me as a 9 or 10 in any area except co-parenting. No spark for desire there.

The only thing she ever found desirable about me was when I said I intended to never have sex with her again. If I go back on that, there won't be anything she finds desirable about me.

She is no wimp. She fights hard for whatever she wants in life., She is relentless. Yet she has been willing to accept zero sex after 1 or 2 feeble attempts to initiate. What does that tell you about her underlying level of desire for me? You think if I tell her I doubt she finds me attractive, that she is going to make an effort to prove me wrong? Hah!


----------



## MyRevelation

Holdingontoit said:


> The only thing she ever found desirable about me was when I said I intended to never have sex with her again. If I go back on that, there won't be anything she finds desirable about me.


I don't know. Seems to me, she gets off on spending your money that you don't have, and then gets the "warm fuzzy's" from watching you tie yourself in knots over her manipulations. She's getting her O's ... just in a different way. 

She used to manipulate you with sex AND spending ... now that sex is off the table, and her health concerns are largely behind her, it's time to ramp up her old favorite past time of spending you into never being able to retire. You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time navel gazing over a problem that most men would have left in the rear view mirror YEARS ago.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Well said. Lucky thing I like navel gazing so much!

Seriously, like I said at the beginning of this thread: I am not looking to "solve" this. I am looking not to solve it, but to prolong it. So far, I am doing an excellent job.


----------



## MyRevelation

Holdingontoit said:


> Well said. Lucky thing I like navel gazing so much!
> 
> Seriously, like I said at the beginning of this thread: I am not looking to "solve" this. I am looking not to solve it, but to prolong it. So far, I am doing an excellent job.


Hey, It's your life to waste, but why the need to constantly wallow in the misery of your own choices that you seem to feel strongly about continuing?

It's your decision ... OWN IT!!! ... and quit complaining about it.

Clearly, you have a huge need for attention or you wouldn't keep coming to various boards and baiting people by trying to defend this dysfunctional dance you've created for yourself.


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## Holdingontoit

MyRevelation said:


> Clearly, you have a huge need for attention or you wouldn't keep coming to various boards and baiting people by trying to defend this dysfunctional dance you've created for yourself.


Correct again!

Except the part about defending it. I am doing nothing of the sort. It says right on the first page that my thread is about warning people NOT to do what I have done. I have said many times it is foolish and evil. If that is a defense, I'd hate to see what I write about things I am attacking!

Oh, and in case you didn't notice, you took the bait AGAIN!


----------



## MyRevelation

Holdingontoit said:


> Correct again!
> 
> Except the part about defending it. I am doing nothing of the sort. It says right on the first page that my thread is about warning people NOT to do what I have done. I have said many times it is foolish and evil. If that is a defense, I'd hate to see what I write about things I am attacking!
> 
> Oh, and in case you didn't notice, you took the bait AGAIN!


Oh, I've held quite a bit in because Marriage Advocates won't allow an honest discussion that involves conflict ... they avoid that like kryptonite.

I understand your position ... I may not agree with it all, but I understand where you're coming from with the exception of the attention seeking. You've made your decision and you're comfortable with it ... why then do you keep posting about it (from my perspective) just to keep getting attention for your "unusual" method and desire to maintain this marital dysfunction? ... or is THAT the motivation ... that even negative attention is better than no attention at all?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Thank you for not jumping on my lame attempt at humor. You treated my post seriously, so I will try to address yours.

I keep posting because my situation causes me distress. Not enough distress to change things. But enough distress that I need to "medicate" the discomfort. I medicate by posting. Probably a bad idea in the long run. Because it has helped enable me to tolerate this.

I have no friends IRL. I don't share how I feel about my marriage with anyone IRL. We stopped MC over 11 years ago. It takes enormous effort to maintain the facade. Posting online is my chance to take off the mask and share my true feelings. 

Like I said, maybe would have been better if I held it all in and then exploded. But despite the downsides, I continue to choose to stay. If I am going to stay, I need this outlet to vent my frustration. That is part of what enables me to go home and be pleasant. I don't explode because I have talked through most of the likely outcomes and have a response ready. And when I feel like exploding at home, I know if I wait until the next day I can talk through my frustraiton online and calm myself down.


----------



## MyRevelation

That is a very fair response. I hadn't considered your posting as a form of self-medication to help you deal with what has to be an extremely stressful situation. When you put it that way, it's really not much different from the more traditional forms of self-medication that I use to keep the lid on.

I suppose I should just stay off your threads. Something about it just infuriates me to see a guy get repeatedly **** on by a W that I view through your descriptions as deplorable, which is one of my new favorite words, even though you have chosen to accept that treatment as the cost of staying M'd. At least you are dealing with the situation with your eyes wide open, rather than the self-deception that I see is so many of the infidelity recovery threads.

Living in a sexless M is just one of those things that I can't wrap my head around.


----------



## Holdingontoit

MyRev: Appreciate your understanding. Yes, I see this as better than drugs or alcohol to medicate my distress. Not to be too down on drugs, because since H2 got the MM card for her cancer she has been much more pleasant most of the time. I don't know how much it helps with the cancer / treatment symptoms but it sure as heck makes her easier to be around. But I am a licensed professional so no illegal meds for me. I do have a drink occasionally after work but I think obsessive posting is better than obsessive drinking.

And trust me, an absolutely sexless marriage is much easier for me to tolerate than the old 1 - 10 times a year. As you dial it back from 50 to 25 to 5 the pain goes up exponentially. But when you get to zero and stay there as a matter of choice, the bulk of the pain goes away. As if by magic. You might think zero would be worse than 5 but it is much less burdensome. At 5, every moment you are together you are thinking maybe this will the time you can have sex again. But at 0, you know it isn't going to happen so the thought "how should I behave to maximize the chances of sex" disappears. And that thought is the source of much anxiety. It is a huge relief to be able to think to yourself "wow, I can do whatever I want because it will have no impact on whether sex happens".

Plus it radically changes the power dynamic. Before, the LD has total control because they can dangle or withhold sex. After, the LD has lost their primary lever. Makes the playing field for negotiation much more level. That feels better.

Finally, when you are as lousy in bed as I am, you eventually realize that sex is not about shared joy, it is about imposing yourself on your partner and them being too polite to admit what is happening. And who wants more of that?


----------



## Holdingontoit

From another thread. Copied here to avoid hijacking.



jld said:


> Are you open to having sex with your wife if she asks you for it, Holding?


No. 

Nor am I worried that she will. She doesn't ask, because she doesn't get anything out of it. She only ever offers. I turned her down twice when she offered. She hasn't offered in months.

Remember, we have gone 9 months without sex several times before she got cancer and before I started turning her down. Back then I was trying to have sex with her. Heck, we went months without sex while seeing a sex therapist. I understand that is required during the first few weeks when you are doing non-sexual touch and emotional bonding exercises. But that therapist said it would take her 16 weeks to help us achieve a better sex life. After 16 weeks of nothing, I asked if it was a bad sign that we hadn't done the "hug with your clothes on" exercise yet? So if there is a period of abstinence long enough to get my wife interested in having sex with me, it is measured in years and I am certainly not holding my breath waiting for it to arrive.


----------



## turnera

Eventually, one of you will die and the issues will be over.

Sorry, but it's the truth. At our age, that's what's on my radar now.

btw, why don't you look to make a friend (male) anyway? Just to have some happiness in your life? The kids are grown, fill your time with something enjoyable.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@turnera: Exactly. Except that the issues are already over. There is no more conflict. I decided we will not have sex and she has no motivation to trigger conflict over that. So there is no conflict.
Basically I work all week and have acquaintances at work who fill my need for adult human companionship. If I ever get to the point where I can afford to retire, or if there is no one willing to hire me despite my desire to keep working, I will get a dog.


----------



## Holdingontoit

To my surprise, wife came on to me while we were away on vacation with our kids. It was awkward. I did not finish. No idea how it was for her (quite possibly painful) since we do not discuss our experiences. Not intending to go back there. Did not improve either of our moods. In fact, I found her quite snippy after and she accused me of yelling at her. Kids response was "how could he be yelling, we were right next to you and we could barely hear him". Apparently, anything I say that is the least bit critical of her is yelling, and is prohibited if sex has occurred during the past 96 hours. Like I said, stupid to have given in and no reason to repeat that mistake.


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> To my surprise, wife came on to me while we were away on vacation with our kids. It was awkward. I did not finish. No idea how it was for her (quite possibly painful) since we do not discuss our experiences. Not intending to go back there. Did not improve either of our moods. In fact, I found her quite snippy after and she accused me of yelling at her. Kids response was "how could he be yelling, we were right next to you and we could barely hear him". Apparently, anything I say that is the least bit critical of her is yelling, and is prohibited if sex has occurred during the past 96 hours. Like I said, stupid to have given in and no reason to repeat that mistake.


Stay strong.

Just because you fell off the horse doesn't mean that you can't get back on.

This is a reminder of what will happen if you weaken again.


----------



## MrsAldi

Oh dear, I'm terribly sorry that it didn't work out. 
Without the full details, I'm just guessing that she feels either inadequate or rejected from the results. 

She took the lead in initiating but if she didn't want to participate in the rest then she what does she except? 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

We have been getting along very well lately. She has been very affectionate. I have been smart and not taken the bait and turned it sexual. I think she sees my denying her as strength and that helps her feel safe, which helps her feel good about being married to me.


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> We have been getting along very well lately. She has been very affectionate. I have been smart and not taken the bait and turned it sexual. I think she sees my denying her as strength and that helps her feel safe, which helps her feel good about being married to me.


Continue to refuse the bait. Failing there could cost you all your hard won efforts.

I'm not entirely happy that your denying her makes her feel good. But if that's cost of retaining your self respect, then it's worth it.


----------



## Personal

Holdingontoit said:


> To my surprise, wife came on to me while we were away on vacation with our kids. It was awkward. I did not finish. No idea how it was for her (quite possibly painful) since we do not discuss our experiences. Not intending to go back there. Did not improve either of our moods. In fact, I found her quite snippy after and she accused me of yelling at her. Kids response was "how could he be yelling, we were right next to you and we could barely hear him". Apparently, anything I say that is the least bit critical of her is yelling, and is prohibited if sex has occurred during the past 96 hours. Like I said, stupid to have given in and no reason to repeat that mistake.


I'm sorry you got all that, although I do wonder if her poor behaviour is her response to a degree of disappointment. Which certainly isn't all on you at all, when you both don't discuss your experiences.

Why don't you both discuss, such things?

If that is on her, if I were you I would insist on going there. On the other hand if it's on you, I would try to get over my reticence and talk about it.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@Personal: Thanks, but long past trying to talk. Spent 8 years in MC and ST. With a couple of licensed AASECT counsellors. H2 never discussed sex while I was present and never did any of the assigned exercises or homework. There simply is no going there. If I want a satisfying sex life, I need to divorce. No intention to divorce, so insisting merely brings conflict, stress, frustration, resentment and poor relations.

And yes, it is partly my fault. I am a dud in bed. Not interested in doing the work to learn to get better. That is part of why I stay. She won't leave me over my being a dud. So we are both giving in to our weaknesses. Fair and balanced. That is my goals these days. Not making it great. Not seeing how much better we can make it. Just keeping it fair and balanced. I am content to have it balanced at a low level. Others would choose differently. Lucky, they don't have to be me.

As @TaDor said on another thread, bad sex isn't worth the time. Since we only ever had bad sex (took me a long while to figure that out), I stopped wasting our time.

The good news is that, with sex now mostly off the table, she is far more affectionate and we share more cuddling and touching than we did before. Before, she feared cuddling would lead to sex. Now she feels safe to cuddle. So it is not a pure sacrifice, I do get something in return for mostly eliminating sex.


----------



## SunCMars

Holdingontoit said:


> Thank you for not jumping on my lame attempt at humor. You treated my post seriously, so I will try to address yours.
> 
> I keep posting because my situation causes me distress. Not enough distress to change things. But enough distress that I need to "medicate" the discomfort. I medicate by posting. Probably a bad idea in the long run. Because it has helped enable me to tolerate this.
> 
> I have no friends IRL. I don't share how I feel about my marriage with anyone IRL. We stopped MC over 11 years ago. It takes enormous effort to maintain the facade. Posting online is my chance to take off the mask and share my true feelings.
> 
> Like I said, maybe would have been better if I held it all in and then exploded. But despite the downsides, I continue to choose to stay. If I am going to stay, I need this outlet to vent my frustration. That is part of what enables me to go home and be pleasant. I don't explode because I have talked through most of the likely outcomes and have a response ready. And when I feel like exploding at home, I know if I wait until the next day I can talk through my frustraiton online and calm myself down.


Such a measured and well thought out response. And truthful. I write for release, also. Problem: it is habit forming. Gaming, using QWERTY, brain power and medium length strong fingers.

Stay strong.......stay alive in your words *and in your imagination*. 

You have friends. As many as your imagination can conjure. And, *you have friends, lovers and admirers* who appear at your bidding. 

Close your eyes, call them. They never do you wrong. They DO YOU over and over.....never tiring.

I am GRAPHIC and to the point. Life is not. Life is opaque. It does it's action "in the background" with or without your active participation.

You have friends on TAM.


----------



## SunCMars

turnera said:


> Eventually, one of you will die and the issues will be over.
> 
> Sorry, but it's the truth. At our age, *that's what's on my radar now*.
> 
> btw, why don't you look to make a friend (male) anyway? Just to have some happiness in your life? The kids are grown, fill your time with something enjoyable.


Good idea on the friend suggestion. Works well for me. Fishing, golfing, motorcycling, etc. 

Death is on your Radar? It is on all of ours. Mine for sure. I am at risk from [without and from within]. Even an Oak Tree can be tipped over....its roots exposed, no water, no nutrients....it too dies.
..................................................................................................................................................
My Radar is *much farther* seeing than yours. My radar punches through fog. Past the end of the noses of doubters.

You will be surprised with what [will be] in store for you.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Thanks for the suggestion.

Wish I knew how to make friends. Never really had any.

I have joined some meetup groups to fill time when H2 is out of town. But when she is around I do chores and then we go out to dinner. In the summer we go on hikes or kayak locally. I don't have ambitions to accomplish much more than that.


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## Holdingontoit

> @inmyprime: @Holdingontoit: I might be wrong but I feel like you have a moral obligation, as a human being, to show these writings to your wife. All of it. She needs to know what's going on in your head/soul. I have to admit I never read anything like this before and while I can sort of understand how something like this can come about, I cannot comprehend how this can be rationalized to become an acceptable situation. It is in our nature to have the ability to love someone and get satisfaction/positive feedback from this. Something, sometime, obviously went very wrong. From your writing, it comes across as if everything that makes you human, has been replaced by pure resentment towards your wife and, perversely, that seems to be the only feeling that is producing any positive feedback currently for you. As I wrote before i feel this state of being can become addictive quickly if nothing is done about it (and I think it already has). Your relationship seems completely dysfunctional. If your wife is a completely dysfunctional person and there is nothing that she can do with the information (if you show her your writings), you need to let go. You will ruin whatever is left of yourself.


I do not want to continue thread-jacking @alexm's thread.

Sorry @inmyprime, not sharing with H2. Did that for 8 years during MC. Poured my heart out. Repeatedly got kicked in the teeth. Not doing that again. 

As I have said, our marriage today is better than it ever was. She is more supportive, more affectionate, more in love with me than ever before. Why would I ruin that for either of us?

She might well leave me over it. Would understand if she did. Why risk that? For truth and honor? Tried truth and got roasted for it. The massive overspending started shortly after I insisted on MC. We have only really gotten in under control since I stopped having sex with her. Honor? That is long since gone. I have been this way for 12 years. It is far too late to save any portion of myself.

To whom do you think I have this "moral obligation"? To my wife? Who married me under false pretenses? Repeatedly lied and hid things during MC? Spent all our savings, ran up huge credit cards debts, and then lied to my face about it? The one who stole checks from my checkbook and forged my name on the checks to pay off charges on new credit cards she opened after she claimed to have given up all her charge cards? I have a moral obligation to be open and honest and reveal my deepest secrets to her? Nope, sorry, homey don't play that game.

Look, in her heart she is a good person. I pushed her to a dark ugly place by pushing her to have sex with me. Now that I have removed that pressure, she treats me well and the goodness in her heart shines out. As long as I don't ask for sex, we get along great. I am NOT rocking this boat. I got it to a place where I enjoy being with her. Where our nights out are not clouded by my desire for her and my frustration that my desire would never be reciprocated. Where we can be playful together. Where we can be together and not staring at each other across a chasm. I moved us away from the chasm. I am not moving us back closer to it in the hope we can build a bridge across it. I intend to stay far away from it.

I have built a complex structure that enables both of us to enjoy being in this place together. I am not looking to tear it down and rebuild something different. You may think the alternative structure would be much more beautiful and comfortable and solid. But I think we are just as likely to find ourselves sitting amidst a pile of rubble with no structure at all to shelter us. My life. My choice. I choose to stay here.

Thanks for your concern. Sincerely. I know people here care. I know many wish I would choose a different path. Not going to happen. But I appreciate the sentiment underlying the suggestions.


----------



## alexm

Holdingontoit said:


> No more thread-jacking @alexm.


What did I do?


----------



## 225985

.


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## farsidejunky

He was saying that he jacked @alexm thread.


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## 269370

Need to read the whole thing before I can muster a comment. I meant the moral obligation to yourself, not to anyone else. I thought it's important that she knows how you feel. Not for her. for you. These things are difficult to say out loud and much better if they are in written form.
Part of me admires the fact that you seem to have managed to make the unworkable work. Somehow. But it is difficult to fathom at what cost to yourself...


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: No point in reading this whole thread. The first page says it all. I am not here seeking help. I am here to stand as a warning of why HDs should not tolerate the intolerable for too long. Precisely for the reason you state: you lose yourself. The price is too high.

Trust me, she knows. We both know. We both pretend we don't. It works for both of us. It shouldn't, but it does. 

Like I said, things have never been better between us. Not before marriage. Not on our honeymoon. Never. There isn't anything to "fix" that could conceivably be fixed.
The single event that most helped out marriage was my wife's illness, surgery and recovery. I am not wishing for more of the same to reach an even better place.
Communication never helped our marriage. In fact, the more we talked about our marriage, the worse it got. The only words that ever helped our marriage was me telling her she is still beautiful despite the scars. I will keep saying that. There is nothing else to say that helps.

I abdicated my obligations to myself long long ago. The Lord has seen fit to bless me despite my poor choices. I am not rocking this boat.


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## alexm

blueinbr said:


> Classic example of lack of communication. He meant it as an apology but it appeared to be a complaint.


lol!

Reminds me of this tshirt my older boy has that says:

"Let's eat grandma.

Let's eat, grandma.

Commas save lives."


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## kag123

Read this whole thing. Wow. Two profoundly broken people. I would absolutely love to hear your wife's side of the story. I find it so fascinating. 

How do you think your marriage, and your self stated depression, has impacted your children? 

I think you are a genuinely good person. It was admirable that you stuck by your wife so steadfastly when she was sick. I am sure she realizes how lucky she is for that. 

From where I sit, it appears that although you claim to wallow in unhappiness, there is actually quite a bit of good (dare I say...happiness) in your life right now. 

I think your wife is exactly where she wants to be right now. I would be very interested to hear her take on this "control" dynamic that you speak of. I'd be willing to bet that she still feels that she wears the pants. Given her history, I wonder if she would ever let the power shift out of her hands anyway. 

Terrible stuff that you've both been through. Yet I think you are both upstanding people...just very very troubled. 



Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Jessica38

Holdingontoit said:


> Can I accept it? No.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any disconnect. All my choices are sub-optimal given my treatment resistant depression. The fact that I chose one doesn't mean I am pleased with it. I am a seething ball of resentment because I hate that I am too lazy and negative to even try to create new alternatives. To some, that would suggest that I should do the work and try to create additional options. To me, it just reinforces my determination to punish myself for being weak.
> 
> 
> 
> What did you expect? Don't you think most suicide bombers are seething balls of resentment when they strap on the explosive vest?
> 
> 
> 
> Some people when facing the Kobayashi Maru scenario find acceptance. Some go down fighting. Some try to cheat death and reprogram the simulator. And some of us overload the engines and blow ourselves up, hoping to take down the enemy with us. Kahn triggered the Genesis device. Not all of us are cut out to be heroes.



HoldingOnToIt,

Since you don't want to accept it, I'd suggest looking into options to improve your life. I completely understand and agree with you that the numerous side-effects of A/D and many pharmaceuticals outweigh the benefits in the case of chronic illness.

1. I don't see why you want to stay married. You say it's because you're not convinced that life will be any better as a single man. The thing is, you're in an unhappy marriage. That alone might contribute to your impotence. Leaving your wife might be the turnaround you need to feel better about yourself and more positive in general.

2. Have you tried meditation/yoga? There's a book called The Power of Now that has helped many people. Positivity is a choice. Yoga helps with depression. Both will help you feel better and the bodyweight strength required for yoga as you progress is a great way to stay in shape as you age without the stress of over-training for marathons. 

3. Do you have a good relationship with your children? I bet they will benefit from having a happier dad in their lives and you will continue to find great joy in your kids as they graduate college, and possibly eventually have kids. Don't you want to be a part of this in the most beneficial way possible? I'd think even staying single, you'd have family relationships that bring you much joy and if you bring a healthier, more positive attitude to that, you will find it was worth the scary unknown of living life after divorce.

4. If you absolutely are resigned to staying with your wife, you could get help to work on the marriage. I don't have a lot of faith in most MCs, as their success rate is low from what I've read....but one reason why I keep mentioning Marriage Builders is because it is more practical and usually more successful when the husband is on board. Cn you make marital coaching from home with your wife a condition to staying married to her? It sounds like she doesn't want you to leave either...maybe if she has to be accountable to a marriage coach who you talk to every week and who gives you both steps to take to improve things, you will finally achieve some success in your marriage?

I'm a firm believer that when a spouse is depressed, it is often related to the marriage. Even if outside stressors cause one partner to become susceptible to depression, the state of the marriage very often can either help or make everything in life worse. 

Your marriage sounds to me like the root of all the issues in your life.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

@kag123: I think she is aware that she has less control than she used to have. There is an edge of desperation when she tells me to take my meds and eat healthy foods. She tells me I am not allowed to leave her alone by dying, so I should exercise more. Yes, she says it is a scolding tone as if she is in control. But the desperate edge and look in her eye tells me she knows that she no longer has the power to command me. I simply laugh and walk away. She asks me why I work late and why I hang out in the kitchen or living room in the evening instead of sitting with her. I just smile and walk away. She knows why I used to sit near her - I was hoping to "get lucky". She knows she no longer has any means to entice me to stay near her, so she wisely does not push the issue.

@Jessica38: Thanks for caring.

My marriage is not the root of the problem. I was depressed for decades before I met H2. Did counselling in my teens and 20s before I met her. My marriage is not the problem and divorce would not be the cure.

As for MB, I was on the forums for 8 or 9 years and we did phone counselling with a Harley-trained MC who applied the MB principles. I know all about Love Bank and Love Busters and Emotional Needs. The MB counselor was the last MC we tried. She fired us after 2 years because neither of us were willing to make the changes that would be required for our marriage to succeed. Now I have made the change that H2 desired and that I was previously unwilling to make. I gave up on having sex. That is why our marriage is better in the day to day. It is not healthy. But it is better. I am not willing to do more. H2 is not willing to do that which would entice me to do more.


----------



## Jessica38

I see. It doesn't sound like there's anything left to try regarding the marriage- your wife is unwilling to do the things required to improve the marriage and you're unwilling to leave the marriage.

Have you tried non-pharmaceutical methods for treating your depression? A good Functional Medicine provider could likely help, as current research is finding that a lot of mood/mental issues are tied to the gut. Things like probiotics, diet, and vitamin therapy can often help. There's a great psychiatrist who uses natural methods in treating depression in her clients. Her name is Dr. Kelly Brogan and she has a website and book if you want to google her and check out her work. 

Of course, any good Functional Medicine provider is going to recommend changing your environment if you're unhappy in it. This is where a lot of depressed people in unhappy marriages get stuck. Even if you were depressed prior to an unhappy marriage, staying in a situation like that is going to make it more challenging to stay positive.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> @kag123: I think she is aware that she has less control than she used to have. There is an edge of desperation when she tells me to take my meds and eat healthy foods. She tells me I am not allowed to leave her alone by dying, so I should exercise more. Yes, she says it is a scolding tone as if she is in control. But the desperate edge and look in her eye tells me she knows that she no longer has the power to command me. I simply laugh and walk away. She asks me why I work late and why I hang out in the kitchen or living room in the evening instead of sitting with her. I just smile and walk away. She knows why I used to sit near her - I was hoping to "get lucky". She knows she no longer has any means to entice me to stay near her, so she wisely does not push the issue.
> 
> @Jessica38: Thanks for caring.
> 
> My marriage is not the root of the problem. I was depressed for decades before I met H2. Did counselling in my teens and 20s before I met her. My marriage is not the problem and divorce would not be the cure.
> 
> As for MB, I was on the forums for 8 or 9 years and we did phone counselling with a Harley-trained MC who applied the MB principles. I know all about Love Bank and Love Busters and Emotional Needs. The MB counselor was the last MC we tried. She fired us after 2 years because neither of us were willing to make the changes that would be required for our marriage to succeed. Now I have made the change that H2 desired and that I was previously unwilling to make. I gave up on having sex. That is why our marriage is better in the day to day. It is not healthy. But it is better. I am not willing to do more. H2 is not willing to do that which would entice me to do more.


Do you think your wife loves you? 

Do you love her?

Has your wife ever worked? I may have missed it when reading. 

Btw, you didn't answer my question from before - how do you think that your marriage has impacted your kids? 

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## 269370

Read your first post.

You mentioned it somewhat matter-of-factly but this jumped at me:

"2 years into MC H2 admitted she had been *raped multiple times*."

It's kind of a biggie. Has this been addressed properly? Has she been councelled for it?

"Multiple times"? How is this possible?

Aside form it: have you asked her why she would barely/never have sex with you? What does/did she say? (not in the mood/tired doesn't count/is not a proper conversation. We are not always too tired to be unable to have sex. Unless we are dead).
Do you remember how the sex was before marriage? How long were you in relationship/having sex before you got married?

Difficult to comment...there are too many things/issues, I am just trying to understand/eliminate the obvious ones.

On the whole, it almost reads as if you feel that you 'deserve' it. Nobody deserves anything but it's your right to want to be happy or be in pursuit of it. Anyway, i know this doesn't help now. You seem to have made the best out of the worst.

Btw there are a number of 'sexless' partnerships which can work successfully (obviously both need to want the same thing). Have you ever discussed with her a possibility for you to have this need met somewhere else earlier on? what was her reaction?

This is jumping ahead. First the rape thing: what's this all about?


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## Holdingontoit

She had the typical litany of excuses. They never added up. They never explained why we had almost no sex on our honeymoon. Each MC and sex therapist eventually realized that my behavior (the alleged cause of her disinterest) was not so poor as to justify never having sex with me. At that point each course MC or ST ran into a brick wall. So we switched to another counsellor, hping they had a system or technique that would help us. But it never worked. It could never work. We were not addressing the core issue.

H2 worked full time for several years before we got married. Stopped working when we had kids. Works flexible job now. Takes so many gigs that it is full time (more, she works weekends too), but very low pay. She likes it and likes the flexibility to take off whenever she wants and go visit the kids (who both live far away). She said she would take a full time job when both kids were in college but first the illness intervened and now she likes her flexibility too much to get 9-5 weekday job with limited vacation.

As for the rapes, I know very little. All before we met. I know approximately when they happened. She says they do not affect her sexuality. I don't believe her but that is not up for discussion. No, she will not seek help, as in her mind they are not currently relevant. When I met her I couldn't understand why a woman who had so much going for her chose me. I thought it was her bad acne, life events such as moving often and never feeling like she belonged where she was. Only years later did I realize why I was so appealing to her. And why we are so mismatched. Well, perfect in a way, Perfectly designed to drive each other crazy. Perfectly designed to trigger both s strong desire and our respective fear / anxiety / shame. Perfectly designed to be impossible to leave.

I am not interested in another partner. I have never had a fulfilling sexual relationship and don't expect to ever have one. That is why it is fairly easy to live without sex now that I am old and have even more performance problems than previously. That is why I was so easy to entrap. I was inexperienced, anxious, bumbling. Quite a dud. She accepted me. I did not realize why at the time. By the time I realized we were far too entwined for me to exit. At this time I see no point. I am not exposing my inadequacy to another woman. Might as well not have sex with the mother of my children but have a standing date for Saturday night than be alone.

I have not made the best of anything. I am sure I have set a bad example for my kids. However, I was worried that H2, left to her own devices, might be worse despite how much she adores them and caters to them. She would remarry and step parenting is always a challenge. We work very well as a parenting team. Better than either on our own. Both kids are doing well academically. It remains to be seen how they will do romantically. They both struggle in different ways. I fear our cursed relationship may echo down the generations. Pretty much every set of parents messes up their kids in one way or another. I hope our kids can learn to deal with how we messed them up. They get along very well with each other and with us. That is a blessing. I did not want to blow that up.

Yes, I think she loves me. More now than ever before. I think she would try harder now to make herself available than she ever did before. I am too broken to deal with that. I can't accept duty / pity sex a a loving gesture. I have too much shame. Do I love her? I care for her deeply. But I don't love myself enough to love anyone properly. So yes, I think I deserve this. I am not trying to be happy. I don't deserve to be happy.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> She had the typical litany of excuses. They never added up. They never explained why we had almost no sex on our honeymoon. Each MC and sex therapist eventually realized that my behavior (the alleged cause of her disinterest) *was not so poor as to justify never having sex with me. * At that point each course MC or ST ran into a brick wall. So we switched to another counsellor, hping they had a system or technique that would help us. But it never worked. It could never work. We were not addressing the core issue.


That's not the point. What seems 'not so poor behaviour' to your MC is not really relevant. You are not trying to have sex with the MC...It seems she never truly explained that aspect to you. It's possible some people can never talk but I would have pushed this aspect more. Can you not ask her now? after all these years? Perhaps there won't be any pressure for her to tell you since you can tell her that you are not seeking to have sex with her anymore but asking just to satisfy your curiosity.



Holdingontoit said:


> H2 worked full time for several years before we got married. Stopped working when we had kids. Works flexible job now. Takes so many gigs that it is full time (more, she works weekends too), but very low pay. She likes it and likes the flexibility to take off whenever she wants and go visit the kids (who both live far away). She said she would take a full time job when both kids were in college but first the illness intervened and now she likes her flexibility too much to get 9-5 weekday job with limited vacation.
> 
> As for the rapes, *I know very little.* All before we met. I know approximately when they happened. *She says they do not affect her sexuality.* I don't believe her but that is not up for discussion. No, she will not seek help, as in her mind they are not currently relevant.


Absolutely no way. This is most probably the number one reason. I am surprised the MC did not do anything with this information! (doesn't sound like you have a good MC so far...).




Holdingontoit said:


> When I met her I couldn't understand why a woman who had so much going for her chose me. I thought it was her bad acne, life events such as moving often and never feeling like she belonged where she was. Only years later did I realize why I was so appealing to her. And why we are so mismatched. Well, perfect in a way, Perfectly designed to drive each other crazy. Perfectly designed to trigger both s strong desire and our respective fear / anxiety / shame. Perfectly designed to be impossible to leave.
> 
> I am not interested in another partner. I have never had a fulfilling sexual relationship and don't expect to ever have one. That is why it is fairly easy to live without sex now that I am old and have even more performance problems than previously. That is why I was so easy to entrap. I was inexperienced, anxious, bumbling. Quite a dud. She accepted me. I did not realize why at the time. By the time I realized we were far too entwined for me to exit. At this time I see no point. I am not exposing my inadequacy to another woman. Might as well not have sex with the mother of my children but have a standing date for Saturday night than be alone.


I can see why this makes sense to you. I am not sure I agree.

The thing is, we go through life, narrating it to ourselves. And very often life turns out pretty similarly to what we narrate. If you convince yourself that you don't 'deserve something', whether it is true or not (it's not), it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and, perversely, you don't stop until this state is reached. I know this doesn't help now. But I think you are at a point where you can still make many improvements to what you have and a lot of it has to do with your attitude. Focus on one aspect at a time that you want to improve in your relationship or in your life (and never think you 'don't deserve it') and you'll get there eventually. (I don't really know what it is, currently, so am left to these cliche generalizations). Read some books on visualisation techniques (visualising your goals). It does work.
What about your own childhood? I hope there wasn't a parent who kept telling you that you were no good for anything.





Holdingontoit said:


> I have not made the best of anything. I am sure I have set a bad example for my kids. However, I was worried that H2, left to her own devices, might be worse despite how much she adores them and caters to them. She would remarry and step parenting is always a challenge. We work very well as a parenting team. Better than either on our own. Both kids are doing well academically. It remains to be seen how they will do romantically. They both struggle in different ways. I fear our cursed relationship may echo down the generations. Pretty much every set of parents messes up their kids in one way or another. *I hope our kids can learn to deal with how we messed them up.*


Here, you are already narrating the life for your kids...You really have to stop doing it. You haven't messed anyone up.



Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, I think she loves me. More now than ever before. I think she would try harder now to make herself available than she ever did before. I am too broken to deal with that. I can't accept duty / pity sex a a loving gesture. I have too much shame. Do I love her? I care for her deeply. But I don't love myself enough to love anyone properly. So yes, I think I deserve this. I am not trying to be happy. I don't deserve to be happy.


Ok, seriously. You have to stop it. Everyone deserves happiness. No one deserves unhappiness. You are not special in that respect smile2 
If you were persistent enough (and got your wife to sort out her rape problem with a good shrink), a lot of men 'address' their 'inadequacy complex' in the bedroom, by getting 'punished' by their dom spouse. That's a much 'healthier' way than building resentment towards your wife (and more towards yourself). I can tell this would probably be up your street :wink2:
It's really not too late. Find a shrink for your wife who specialised in rape victims first. I am absolutely gobsmacked that it's just been left like this.


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> That's not the point. What seems 'not so poor behaviour' to your MC is not really relevant. You are not trying to have sex with the MC...It seems she never truly explained that aspect to you. It's possible some people can never talk but I would have pushed this aspect more. Can you not ask her now? after all these years? Perhaps there won't be any pressure for her to tell you since you can tell her that you are not seeking to have sex with her anymore but asking just to satisfy your curiosity.


No, sorry, my explanation was poor. She told me the reasons during MC. I fixed them. No matter what I fixed, she never consented to sex. Or to holding hands. Or hugs. Or anything.
You see, the reasons were just excuses. There was, actually, close to nothing wrong with how I treated her. She pretended there was to justify why she refused to have sex with me. Eventually I tired of exhausting myself and got off the treadmill. I am never getting back on.

And it was not a single MC. It was several different ones. Over 8 years. In different cities, with different backgrounds and approaches. The problem is not that we had a bad MC. Or that they used the wrong approach. The problem is that neither me nor my wife was willing to make the changes the other person wanted. Until I made the one change that was required for peace to reign. Giving up sex. We get along well now in terms of the day to day. I am not giving that up to press for change more along the lines of what I originally wanted. Last time I did that H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit cards debts to punish me for daring to suggest she change. Maybe her reaction would be less violent and unhelpful today. We shall never know.



> The thing is, we go through life, narrating it to ourselves. And very often life turns out pretty similarly to what we narrate. If you convince yourself that you don't 'deserve something', whether it is true or not (it's not), it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and, perversely, you don't stop until this state is reached. I know this doesn't help now. But I think you are at a point where you can still make many improvements to what you have and a lot of it has to do with your attitude. Focus on one aspect at a time that you want to improve in your relationship or in your life (and never think you 'don't deserve it') and you'll get there eventually. (I don't really know what it is, currently, so am left to these cliche generalizations). Read some books on visualisation techniques (visualising your goals). It does work.


Thank you. You are absolutely correct. I could make improvements if I desired to do so. I don't and I won't. Like I said, this is not a help thread. It is a warning to others thread.

I appreciate your posts, because what you write is exactly what someone in my position should do to save themselves. I hope anyone reading this thread who finds themselves in my position takes your advice.



> Here, you are already narrating the life for your kids...You really have to stop doing it. You haven't messed anyone up.


I hope and pray you are correct. Time will tell. They are old enough that my input from here on out is minor. They will have to deal with where they are and where they want to go.



> Ok, seriously. You have to stop it. Everyone deserves happiness. No one deserves unhappiness. You are not special in that respect smile2
> If you were persistent enough (and got your wife to sort out her rape problem with a good shrink), a lot of men 'address' their 'inadequacy complex' in the bedroom, by getting 'punished' by their dom spouse. That's a much 'healthier' way than building resentment towards your wife (and more towards yourself). I can tell this would probably be up your street :wink2:
> It's really not too late. Find a shrink for your wife who specialised in rape victims first. I am absolutely gobsmacked that it's just been left like this.


Like I said, you are correct. What I am doing is not healthy. I intend to keep doing it. I do not expect a different outcome. I am not getting help. I am not insisting my wife get help.

I am working a different plan. A sick twisted and unhealthy plan. But for the first time in my life and my marriage, I am making progress toward my goal. You might wish me to pick a different goal. A healthier goal. A more positive goal. One that might involve happiness for me and a closer relationship with my wife. Sorry, that I will never do. I have developed a taste for poison. I am never going back to nutritious food.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> No, sorry, my explanation was poor. She told me the reasons during MC. I fixed them. No matter what I fixed, she never consented to sex. Or to holding hands. Or hugs. Or anything.
> You see, the reasons were just excuses. There was, actually, close to nothing wrong with how I treated her. She pretended there was to justify why she refused to have sex with me. Eventually I tired of exhausting myself and got off the treadmill. I am never getting back on.
> 
> And it was not a single MC. It was several different ones. Over 8 years. In different cities, with different backgrounds and approaches. The problem is not that we had a bad MC. Or that they used the wrong approach. The problem is that neither me nor my wife was willing to make the changes the other person wanted. Until I made the one change that was required for peace to reign. Giving up sex. We get along well now in terms of the day to day. I am not giving that up to press for change more along the lines of what I originally wanted. Last time I did that H2 spent all our savings and ran up huge credit cards debts to punish me for daring to suggest she change. Maybe her reaction would be less violent and unhelpful today. We shall never know.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. You are absolutely correct. I could make improvements if I desired to do so. I don't and I won't. Like I said, this is not a help thread. It is a warning to others thread.
> 
> I appreciate your posts, because what you write is exactly what someone in my position should do to save themselves. I hope anyone reading this thread who finds themselves in my position takes your advice.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope and pray you are correct. Time will tell. They are old enough that my input form here n out is minor. They will have to deal with where they are and where they want to go.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, you are correct. What I am doing is not healthy. I intend to keep doing it. I do not expect a different outcome. I am not getting help. I am not insisting my wife get help.
> 
> I am working a different plan. A sick twisted and unhealthy plan. But for the first time in my life and my marriage, I am making progress toward my goal. You might wish me to pick a different goal. A healthier goal. A more positive goal. One that might involve happiness for me and a closer relationship with my wife. Sorry, that I will never do. I have developed a taste for poison. I am never going back to nutritious food.


Ok, I understand what you are saying. Can I ask what *is* your 'ultimate goal'? 
Also yo wrote: "The problem is that neither me nor my wife was willing to make the changes the other person wanted."

Which changes were expected of *you*?


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## Holdingontoit

You can ask anything you want. No, not in my best interest to tell you explicitly. Surely you can read between the lines and figure it out?

Changes expected of me:

When she asked me to spend more time talking to her, I did. When she asked for date nights, we went on them. When she asked for more vacations, I took more time off.

Where did I fall short? I did not make tons more money. Buy her expensive jewelry. Take her on lots of fancy vacations. Buy her a fancy car. I make a low six figure income and that is much less than she expected and does not support the lifestyle she thought she was marrying into.

Second, she would like me to be less depressed and pessimistic. I did IC for many years. Took AD meds. It caused weight gain and anorgasmia. I exercised to get in better shape and take the weight off. Got in better shape. Took the weight off. Hard to say if the depression ever lifted. As a chronically depressed person I do not trust myself as a witness. She commented from time to time that I seemed better.

But the constant was that we did not have sex and she overspent our budget no matter what I did or didn't do. Hard to throw off the depression when you are constantly getting rejected sexually and you are constantly under financial stress.

The last of our many MCs realized that H2 was never going to provide more sex and Hold was never going to see the glass as half full. So she fired us.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> You can ask anything you want. No, not in my best interest to tell you explicitly. Surely you can read between the lines and figure it out?
> 
> Changes expected of me:
> 
> When she asked me to spend more time talking to her, I did. When she asked for date nights, we went on them. When she asked for more vacations, I took more time off.
> 
> Where did I fall short? I did not make tons more money. Buy her expensive jewelry. Take her on lots of fancy vacations. Buy her a fancy car. I make a low six figure income and that is much less than she expected and does not support the lifestyle she thought she was marrying into.
> 
> Second, she would like me to be less depressed and pessimistic. I did IC for many years. Took AD meds. It caused weight gain and anorgasmia. I exercised to get in better shape and take the weight off. Got in better shape. Took the weight off. Hard to say if the depression ever lifted. As a chronically depressed person I do not trust myself as a witness. She commented from time to time that I seemed better.
> 
> But the constant was that we did not have sex and she overspent our budget no matter what I did or didn't do. Hard to throw off the depression when you are constantly getting rejected sexually and you are constantly under financial stress.
> 
> The last of our many MCs realized that H2 was never going to provide more sex and Hold was never going to see the glass as half full. So she fired us.


For as much as you say she values money, I would have a mountain of resentment if I were you for the fact that she never really got a full time job when she could to help pull in the kind of money she wanted to have. Maybe that's my bias showing through - my H and I are a two earner household and we both work hard to keep moving up the pay scale for our combined benefit. I would be really angry at someone free loading off of my money and simultaneously complaining that I wasn't making enough! 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## 269370

kag123 said:


> For as much as you say she values money, I would have a mountain of resentment if I were you for the fact that she never really got a full time job when she could to help pull in the kind of money she wanted to have. Maybe that's my bias showing through - my H and I are a two earner household and we both work hard to keep moving up the pay scale for our combined benefit. I would be really angry at someone free loading off of my money and simultaneously complaining that I wasn't making enough!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I am not sure it's possible to have more resentment than is already there.
It's strange, in my mind and in my darkest moments, I had a feeling that it is possible to end up in a situation like this through a huge amount of bad luck. You always read about stories regarding couples staying together for convenience etc but this seems to be in another league.
I presume she has absolutely no suspicions regarding how you feel and you don't intend to 'let her in' on it. It's something you developed to 'cherish' by yourself and for yourself.

Yes, I can read between the lines. I just thought if you said it out loud, perhaps you would hear yourself and snap out of it.

Have you ever asked yourself if you have it the wrong way around?


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## anonmd

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure it's possible to have more resentment than is already there.
> It's strange, in my mind and in my darkest moments, I had a feeling that it is possible to end up in a situation like this through a huge amount of bad luck. You always read about stories regarding couples staying together for convenience etc but this seems to be in another league.
> *I presume she has absolutely no suspicions regarding how you feel and you don't intend to 'let her in' *on it. It's something you developed to 'cherish' by yourself and for yourself.
> 
> Yes, I can read between the lines. I just thought if you said it out loud, perhaps you would hear yourself and snap out of it.
> 
> Have you ever asked yourself if you have it the wrong way around?


You are in lala land? 

They were in MC for most of a decade, surely the ****ty sexlife was made quite clear.


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## 269370

I wasn't talking about sex life. 
I am referring to 'the plan'.


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## TaDor

Its more than sexless... its loveless.

How old are you? 45 or so? I've read the first page and bits of the last few pages... I kind of get what you are trying to say. You have resolved yourself to be used, that you have wasted 20+ years of your life with this woman who was NEVER your wife since the day you got married to her. I know guys who are in their 50s~70s who still go out on dates, get laid or some kind of affection from another human being. I'm 46 - if I was back on the market - I'd be getting tail in the 27~37 age bracket.

Yeah, 8 years of MC was a waste. After the first year or so - you should have called it quits.
You are being frank with everyone that you have made this plan to stay with this woman. Okay, you should have or should start doing 180... Why waste the remaining 40 years of your life with someone who doesn't love you. Sorry, but she bait and switched you on your wedding night. How many times did you actually get some action from her? 5 times in 20+ years? She likely knew she was ovulating and did it to get pregnant so you wouldn't leave. She spent YOUR money.
You owe her nothing. Her turning OFF the sex when you married her - means the rapes had little to do with her sex. _(What was sex like before the wedding?)_ What has she done to HELP the marriage? 10% vs. you? You gave her the power over you, likely - she gets off on it.

Of course, your penis is not working as good as it used to. It's an unused tool. When I was having ED problems, my doc said I needed to do some "practice" to get help get it working again.
You had your issues when you were young, she took advantage of you. So, do something about it today.
1 - start 180, go to the gym and work out. Spend less and less time with the hollow wife.
2 - see an IC, all just for YOU.
3 - see a sex therapist.
4 - Start going to strip clubs... have fun with the ladies. Sure it's "cheating" but she cheated you out of your life.
5 - prepare for divorce or offer her the following "divorce and we go our separate ways - and you don't get to be mad because I want sex with you. *OR* we keep things the way we are now, but I'm going out to have my release with strippers and will start dating and having sex with other women."

You may say it, you may prefer, but the reality is - YOU actually do have the choice and ability to change yourself, to want someone to hold hands with, to cuddle and to have sex with. Your warning post still remains useful.

There is little honor staying in a loveless marriage.

Thing is... you telling her "Divorce or open marriage" will likely result in her starting to have sex with you.


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## TaDor

There are women all over ther world who would LOVE to have a man like you... that would stay by their side and they would love you and share their bodies with you.

Stop letting her continue to hurt yourself. Someday, you will figure this out and if its 20 years from now, you will hate yourself for not doing it sooner.


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## *Deidre*

You sound like your marriage from nearly day one, has been emotionally abusive. I think it's really true that we can become so used to a bad place in life, whatever that is...a relationship, job, friendship, etc..that we accept it as normal. That to think of leaving it would be abnormal. I think people in these types of relationships have to get to the point where the pain of staying outweighs the pain of leaving. I think leaving your marriage would lessen your depression and really help you see life (and yourself) in a whole new way. ((hugs))


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## *Deidre*

TaDor said:


> 4 - Start going to strip clubs... have fun with the ladies. Sure its "cheating" but she cheated you out of your life.


You're suggesting for a married guy to cheat on his wife? That's far from his only option. His wife sounds cold and cruel, but cheating is never a good thing to do.


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## 225985

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## *Deidre*

blueinbr said:


> Actually in his situation it might be helpful. He might have sex with another, and afterwards decide it wasn't that important and thus remove resentment towards his wife.
> 
> Or have sex with another, like it, and thus get strength to leave.
> 
> Never say never.


It's not good advice on a marriage forum, especially with betrayed spouses here dealing with infidelity, imo.


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## 225985

t.


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## WilliamM

blueinbr said:


> Actually in his situation it might be helpful. He might have sex with another, and afterwards decide it wasn't that important and thus remove resentment towards his wife.
> 
> Or have sex with another, like it, and thus get strength to leave.
> 
> Never say never.


That would Never be right to do.

Affairs happen, yes, but if a couple is committed to monogamy it is wrong to step outside the marriage. Some handle it better than others, but that doesn't make it right. If his wife would be hurt if she knew, then he better not do it. Never.

Always say never.

Some guy may not think it's a big deal, but if some guys wife thinks it's a big deal then it sure as hell is a big deal, and he better not do it.


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## TaDor

*Deidre* said:


> You're suggesting for a married guy to cheat on his wife? That's far from his only option. His wife sounds cold and cruel, but cheating is never a good thing to do.


 He can tell her that he's going to a strip club. Don't care. Maybe divorce, then hit the strip clubs... Get to feel an actual woman breast for a minute or so - even thou it costs $20~40.

In general, I agree with what you say. I would say the same thing to almost anyone else. But...
She **CHEATED HIM* *out of a life, out of sex, out of love, out of a normal marriage since day one.

Hence, I am putting out a few options. Either way... he shouldn't die... pretty much a virgin. Not with all that he has tried to do to help, be a father, etc.


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## TaDor

WilliamM said:


> That would Never be right to do.
> 
> Affairs happen, yes, but if a couple is committed to monogamy it is wrong to step outside the marriage. Some handle it better than others, but that doesn't make it right. If his wife would be hurt if she knew, then he better not do it. Never.
> 
> Always say never.
> 
> Some guy may not think it's a big deal, but if some guys wife thinks it's a big deal then it sure as hell is a big deal, and he better not do it.


1 - He's not even getting monogamy. He maybe in his 40s, and its been several months or years of nothing. She is *HAPPY* that he doesn't attempt any sort of intimacy with her. This is "nogamy".

2 - Since she hasn't wanted sex for 20+ years since their wedding night... then why would it be a big deal for him (the OP) to get sex from someone else?

3 - Thus, I suggested telling her "Divorce or open the marriage" - since she doesn't want sex. He gets his needs met from someone else and she's happy that he's not trying to make love to her. So its a WIN WIN. The point of the offer is to make her do something... its unfortunate that he didn't kill the marriage within a few months of that game. She *DID* play him. She had sex with him... until they got married. That means SHE PLANNED to screw him over well before the wedding. That makes her a rather evil person in my book.

So its still 3 choices:
A : Live a loveless and sexless marriage with a woman who doesn't care about his needs, his health or his feelings. (Its all about her) Until one of them dies.
B : He offers divorce or open marriage or she has normal sex with him. 
B1 : she stops playing her game or if she doesn't want sex, ever. release him. She could have done this 10, 20 years ago. But no, she kept him on a leash.
C : He gets open marriage, gets to feel and play with other women
D : Divorce, heal with therapy and perhaps gain something resembling living... before he dies of old age.

Unless this is some sort of strange cuckold that the OP enjoys. That is a question I am asking. "Do you enjoy not having sex for 20 years?"


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## 269370

I'm not sure you guys/girls realise that he doesn't want any of this. He managed to find a way to 'love' her by hating himself and what she has done to him and his life.
I don't know how but he did it.
I don't know if it's a form of backwards narration of his life. I also think the rape aspect of his wife (and the fact that nobody, including him, has tried truly hard to look into it and figure it out properly) is one important missing piece of the puzzle.
There is a chance that he (subconsciously) set up his life this way due to this conviction that he 'only deserves the worst'. It's a chicken & egg thing and this attitude may have always existed in one form or another, independently of his wife.
It seems extreme that all these personality traits were brought on solely from his wife refusing sex. At some point, self respect/preservation should kick in.
I think if the situation really had such lousy prospects, somebody else would have tried everything to change this, including leaving her. I'm not sure whether he stayed out of sympathy to her and her situation (since the fact that she was raped multiple times was only brushed on very briefly/superficially in the story) or he stayed because this feeling of self loathing and resentment became addictive to him.
Apologies if this sounds like I have little sympathy: I have a ton of sympathy for your situation but a little less so towards your attitude. Though taken everything into account, I also have sympathy for that: I just think I am missing something important (like your wife's side of the story) to really say that I understand how this came about.
I still hope you can manage to extract yourself from this brain rot.

Regarding sex outside marriage: I mentioned it earlier that if you really wanted to stay with your wife, this aspect could have been discussed with her (paid sex or 'approved' mistress), even if only for the sake of shaking up this woman.


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## *Deidre*

TaDor said:


> He can tell her that he's going to a strip club. Don't care. Maybe divorce, then hit the strip clubs... Get to feel an actual woman breast for a minute or so - even thou it costs $20~40.
> 
> In general, I agree with what you say. I would say the same thing to almost anyone else. But...
> She **CHEATED HIM* *out of a life, out of sex, out of love, out of a normal marriage since day one.
> 
> Hence, I am putting out a few options. Either way... he shouldn't die... pretty much a virgin. Not with all that he has tried to do to help, be a father, etc.


I agree, he should leave her. That's the best option, where he doesn't have to do something immoral.


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## Holdingontoit

I am not leaving her. I am older than the estimates posted here and not willing to take the financial hit at this stage in life. @inmyprime has it correctly. I have lots of self-loathing. Feel like I deserve this. All of which pre-dates the marriage. Divorce will not solve this.
Also, I am not going to cheat. I tried having sex with a prostitute once. Hated it. Filled me with even more shame and self-loathing than I usually feel. Which is saying alot. No interest in doing that again. See, I am really really bad at sex. Always was. For any woman I ever had sex with, I am the worst lay they ever had. I am not going to embarrass myself by having sex with anyone else.
Which is another powerful reason to stay with her. She knows I am lousy in bed, but it doesn't matter, because we don't have sex.
I am choosing choice A. Until death do us part.


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## Holdingontoit

oops


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## 225985

e.


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## TaDor

Watch some porn... get in shape...
There are education sex videos and books on how to bang like a master.

So many excuses.


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## TaDor

I want to add. With 100+ female sex partners (none of them, prostitutes) - There are still things I want to do with my wife, that we talk about and will continue to talk about and do.

Point is, most of us have to make an effort to learn new tricks, no matter how often we have done it. You can even look at porn, its amazing that they still make NEW porn, considering that there isn't really that much difference, other than male eyeballs want to see NEW nudity. In general, I bet people can't tell the difference between porn made 5 years ago and today, why not recycle. Other than everything is HD today vs. 2005, and go bath further, VHS.


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## chillymorn69

What does suck in bed even mean?

There is alot more than lasting long or having a big ........shoe size to being good in bed.

Make a woman feel special without being a whimp. Using your hands, mouth, reading their body as you try different things. Laughing things off when funny stuff happens. Being comfortable with eachother.

I don't know .......its painfull reading this thread. Your self deprivation s sad.


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## jld

chillymorn69 said:


> *What does suck in bed even mean?*
> 
> There is alot more than lasting long or having a big ........shoe size to being good in bed.
> 
> Make a woman feel special without being a whimp. Using your hands, mouth, reading their body as you try different things. Laughing things off when funny stuff happens. Being comfortable with eachother.
> 
> I don't know .......its painfull reading this thread. Your self deprivation s sad.


I agree with the bolded. Surely every woman would have a different answer for that.

Could make for an interesting thread, though.


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## 225985

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## Holdingontoit

Yes, maybe I could learn to be better if I made an effort to exercise and if I left my wife and found other women to have sex with and dedicated myself to learning how to please them.

That is what I tried to do in my 20s and failed miserably. Yes, I tried to use fingers and tongue and not just PIV. No, none of it was good for either of us. As far as I could tell, none of them enjoyed it all that much. Got married in my 30s. Maybe I could succeed in my 60s where I failed in my 20s. Simply not worth the effort to me. I had miserable PE in my 20s and 30s. Now I have ED and PE. Mixed with toxic shame. I simply do not have the confidence and drive to overcome these obstacles. I realize I am quitting and giving up. And yes, that is exactly what I am doing.

Look, I am doing the same thing my wife did. She got raped. She decided she would never allow herself to enjoy sex. Because that would give a man power over her. She constantly rejected me, just to prove to herself she had the power to say "no" whenever she wanted. She was more interested in protecting herself than in trying to be happy. Or to share joy with her partner. She has made me into a mirror image of herself. Now the only thing I care about is self-protection and not shared joy.

There is no such thing as joy. It is an illusion. I have made my choice to stay. I will not be swayed.


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## 225985

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## Holdingontoit

Fix me as in develop confidence and drive and desire to do work to improve myself? There is nothing there. I am a hollow shell. A terrified wimpering child. Wimpering children shouldn't have sex.

You want me to grow up? Be an adult? Take responsibility for my own life?

Never going to happen. And now you know why all our MCs fired us. And why none of my IC ever helped. I refuse to "fix" myself. I am pathetic. I deserve to be miserable. It is an endless feedback loop. As long as you don't mind the constant screeching sound in your ears, it isn't all that bad.

Well, actually, it is bad. But you get used to it. At least I did.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> Fix me as in develop confidence and drive and desire to do work to improve myself? There is nothing there. I am a hollow shell. A terrified wimpering child. Wimpering children shouldn't have sex.
> 
> You want me to grow up? Be an adult? Take responsibility for my own life?
> 
> Never going to happen. And now you know why all our MCs fired us. And why none of my IC ever helped. I refuse to "fix" myself. I am pathetic. I deserve to be miserable. It is an endless feedback loop. As long as you don't mind the constant screeching sound in your ears, it isn't all that bad.
> 
> Well, actually, it is bad. But you get used to it. At least I did.


What's keeping you here on this earth if you are really THAT miserable? Serious question. 

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## 269370

kag123 said:


> What's keeping you here on this earth if you are really THAT miserable? Serious question.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Don't underestimate the 'worth' of misery.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Fix me as in develop confidence and drive and desire to do work to improve myself? There is nothing there. I am a hollow shell. A terrified wimpering child. Wimpering children shouldn't have sex.
> 
> You want me to grow up? Be an adult? Take responsibility for my own life?
> 
> Never going to happen. And now you know why all our MCs fired us. And why none of my IC ever helped. I refuse to "fix" myself. I am pathetic. I deserve to be miserable. It is an endless feedback loop. As long as you don't mind the constant screeching sound in your ears, it isn't all that bad.
> 
> Well, actually, it is bad. But you get used to it. At least I did.


Can I ask you something: when was the last time you explicitly asked your wife for sex, or to 'help you out', sexually?

Something doesn't feel quite right to me. The fervour, with which you appear to be holding onto the self-loathing makes me feel as if it has become more important to you than anything else in your life. As if your life's failure (in your eyes) has become the only real thing to which you can hold onto and feel passionate about and that makes sense to you.

It's as if you prefer this state, to an alternative life: in which your wife has no ill intent towards you, no pretence and in which she wished you could change your outlook on yourself.

I know this is outlandish and I don't mean to minimize your situation. I am just looking at all possible options. I mean it is possible it started out like this (that your wife would find it difficult to have sex, due to her rape history) but has it remained like this throughout your *whole* marriage? Or have you at some point started seeing a 'purpose' in yourself, by trying to subconsciously keep the situation hopeless? (Either due to self-inflicted feelings of inadequacy, after blaming yourself for PE or something else, i don't know). 

There is something about your writing that leaves me feeling like I am only getting the feel for one blade of grass, rather than seeing the entire field. Maybe it's the improbability of it all.


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: You nailed it. I have turned my self-loathing into a fetish. I live to polish my pearl of resentment to a gleaming shine.

Yes, my wife was opposed to sex continuously from our wedding night until the cancer hit.

We tried ST to see if I could make it better for her. She never did any of the exercises or homework, so neither of us learned anything more about each others' bodies or sexual response.

As I have said, she might be more amenable to making herself available now. Unfortunately, I am no longer interested.

I do not think my wife had ill will toward me. I do think she lied and manipulated me, but I think it was more about getting her own needs met and ignoring mine (or telling herself she would make it up to me in other ways) rather than affirmatively malicious. I do think she feels sad now that she realizes how much she hurt me. But that empathy does not enable her to overcome her aversion to the point of opening up and making herself vulnerable. She would lay down and let me do things to her while she remains silent and unmoving. No thank you.

I do think she wishes I would change my outlook on myself. She wishes I could be happier. But as you say, I prefer to live as a seething ball of frustration and resentment.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: You nailed it. I have turned my self-loathing into a fetish. I live to polish my pearl of resentment to a gleaming shine.
> 
> Yes, my wife was opposed to sex continuously from our wedding night until the cancer hit.
> 
> We tried ST to see if I could make it better for her. She never did any of the exercises or homework, so neither of us learned anything more about each others' bodies or sexual response.
> 
> As I have said, she might be more amenable to making herself available now. Unfortunately, I am no longer interested.
> 
> I do not think my wife had ill will toward me. I do think she lied and manipulated me, but I think it was more about getting her own needs met and ignoring mine (or telling herself she would make it up to me in other ways) rather than affirmatively malicious. I do think she feels sad now that she realizes how much she hurt me. But that empathy does not enable her to overcome her aversion to the point of opening up and making herself vulnerable. She would lay down and let me do things to her while she remains silent and unmoving. No thank you.
> 
> I do think she wishes I would change my outlook on myself. She wishes I could be happier. But as you say, I prefer to live as a seething ball of frustration and resentment.


Ok then my next question: could you not let her 'satisfy' you (if you feel she might be more open to it nowadays), but still keep your resentment? Lets be honest, regular 'servicing' will not make up for all the 'lost' years but at least you get some physical pleasure/release out of it, once in a while.

PS: Make sure she tells you what a 'failure' you are, while she does it to you, for maximum effect. Doctor's orders 
She will feel tremendous amount of control. Perhaps it will help her overcome her traumas too.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Ok then my next question: could you not let her 'satisfy' you (if you feel she might be more open to it nowadays), but still keep your resentment? Lets be honest, regular 'servicing' will not make up for all the 'lost' years but at least you get some physical pleasure/release out of it, once in a while.


No. I no longer get pleasure from sex with her. I feel ashamed and embarrassed instead.

For it to be "good" for me, I would have to exercise and get into better shape and take blue pills and put more effort into it. But that level of investment means she gets the power back. If I invest that much in being able to have decent sex with her, then I will have an expectation that she will be available. That gives her the power to hurt me by denying sex. That puts me in a position where I care about her moods and whims, because a bad mood on her part means no sex for days or weeks or months. If I get accustomed to regular sex, I can't easily turn off the need and desire for it to continue. It was agonizing to turn it off the first time. I am never going through that withdrawal again. I would rather be miserable than be under her thumb. And once under, it is painful to get out.

I am very skilled at jerking off. I have done it thousands and thousands of times. I know myself very well. Most orgasms feel amazing. I have excellent control when it is just me. 
We have had sex dozens of times. To be as honest as I can be, maybe 150 times in 25 years. Probably less. I am not good. She is worse. I am not interested in investing in a process for either of us to become better. I trust my hand not to reject me. I don't trust her. And no, I will not give her a chance to earn my trust back.


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## turnera

inmyprime said:


> Don't underestimate the 'worth' of misery.


It's an identity, just like any other.


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## turnera

You know what one of my big wishes in life is? To do a Good Will Hunting on you.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> No. I no longer get pleasure from sex with her. I feel ashamed and embarrassed instead.
> 
> 
> 
> For it to be "good" for me, I would have to exercise and get into better shape and take blue pills and put more effort into it. But that level of investment means she gets the power back. If I invest that much in being able to have decent sex with her, then I will have an expectation that she will be available. That gives her the power to hurt me by denying sex. That puts me in a position where I care about her moods and whims, because a bad mood on her part means no sex for days or weeks or months. If I get accustomed to regular sex, I can't easily turn off the need and desire for it to continue. It was agonizing to turn it off the first time. I am never going through that withdrawal again. I would rather be miserable than be under her thumb. And once under, it is painful to get out.
> 
> 
> 
> I am very skilled at jerking off. I have done it thousands and thousands of times. I know myself very well. Most orgasms feel amazing. I have excellent control when it is just me.
> 
> We have had sex dozens of times. To be as honest as I can be, maybe 150 times in 25 years. Probably less. I am not good. She is worse. I am not interested in investing in a process for either of us to become better. I trust my hand not to reject me. I don't trust her. And no, I will not give her a chance to earn my trust back.




Well you certainly had sex with more women than I have...

Anyway, the fact that the situation is now the way it is actually means that you have succeeded in your objective and that you are quite the opposite of 'failure' like you portray yourself.
It not sure how comforting that is...but if you really wanted to fail, you would keep trying. (Though you might still succeed at that too )


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## Holdingontoit

turnera said:


> You know what one of my big wishes in life is? To do a Good Will Hunting on you.


Sorry, never saw the movie.

@inmyprime: Not sure what your comment about number of partners means. Is your wife your only partner ever? If so, I commend you. I have had maybe 10 and most of them only 1 or 2 times each. Before H2 had 2 relationships that lasted several months, and sex was pretty much just Saturday night after a date with them. Quite sure you should not envy me those experiences.

As for succeeding in my objective? No. My goal was to have sex with a woman who wanted to have sex with me, and who enjoyed it, and to get an ego rush from her consent and from reliably bringing her to orgasm and from her desire for me. At that, I am a complete failure. There is no satisfaction at all from having constructed a mechanism where I can tolerate staying with a woman who rejected me simply to avoid paying alimony. I am making that choice knowingly and willingly. I still hate it. I just hate the alternatives even more. No, there is no success here. I don't have the guts to chase my dreams. I know that about myself. I don't like it. But my fear dominates my desire. Which is precisely why I deserve exactly what I am getting. Cowards die a thousand deaths. I am doing my best to savor each one.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Sorry, never saw the movie.
> 
> @inmyprime: Not sure what your comment about number of partners means. Is your wife your only partner ever? If so, I commend you. I have had maybe 10 and most of them only 1 or 2 times each. Before H2 had 2 relationships that lasted several months, and sex was pretty much just Saturday night after a date with them. Quite sure you should not envy me those experiences.
> 
> As for succeeding in my objective? No. My goal was to have sex with a woman who wanted to have sex with me, and who enjoyed it, and to get an ego rush from her consent and from reliably bringing her to orgasm and from her desire for me. At that, I am a complete failure. There is no satisfaction at all from having constructed a mechanism where I can tolerate staying with a woman who rejected me simply to avoid paying alimony. I am making that choice knowingly and willingly. I still hate it. I just hate the alternatives even more. No, there is no success here. I don't have the guts to chase my dreams. I know that about myself. I don't like it. But my fear dominates my desire. Which is precisely why I deserve exactly what I am getting. Cowards die a thousand deaths. I am doing my best to savor each one.




I dunno. A part of me feels disgusted that we give so much importance to sex. Important enough to ruin your life and yourself over it. Seems kinda ridiculous. But it is what it is.
If that was not such a 'priority' for men, I think things would be much easier all around.


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## Holdingontoit

Hey, I chose to place all of my value and sense of self-worth on becoming successful at attracting and pleasing women sexually. Then I chose not to put the work in to learn how to do that. I made only feeble attempts, then I quit. No one's fault but my own that I am a failure.

I should have decided to attach my sense of self-worth to whether I could work my way up to level 50 colonel in Battlefield 3. Or to whether my kids would still be willing to vacation with me in their 20s. I chose otherwise. I accept the consequences.

And yes, I spent many nights alone in my teens and 20s wishing there was someone next to me in bed. Now I have that. And sometimes she even holds my hand. And you want me to give that up for a chance at sex? Are you mad?


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## turnera

Holdingontoit said:


> Sorry, never saw the movie.


Local boy (Matt Damon) is genius. Working low-end jobs just like his friends. Gets in trouble, has to see a shrink (Robin Williams) to stay out of jail. Gets his realization of 'life.' Sees that he has a better chance than his friends, but he doesn't want to leave them. 

His friend tells him that, every day when he comes to pick him up for his dead-end job, his biggest hope is that, when he comes to get him...he won't be there.

Because he'll have realized he DOES have a better life ahead of him than his dead-end job, if he'll just take it.

Of course - major spoiler - he finally realizes he has to take the chance at a better life, and when his friend comes to get him for work...Matt Damon isn't there.

You really have to see it. Best movie I've ever seen.


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## 269370

It is pretty good. For some reason I always expect Robin Williams to start molesting Matt Damon. But that's a different movie...


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## Holdingontoit

@turnera: Nice weekend with wife. I told her that she is much better to be with than she used to be. She said she always felt warmly toward me, she just never let herself show it on the outside. You are probably correct that a better life would be available if I chose to take it.
@inmyprime: I was wrong and you were correct. I am a success. I aimed to be miserable. And I have succeeded in making myself miserable. All in my mind. But that is where heaven and hell live. Between one's ears. I choose hell. That way I never have to worry about being kicked out of heaven.


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## Holdingontoit

blueinbr said:


> Consider this. If your wife died tomorrow would you still remain sexless for the rest of your life.


Sorry, did not notice this before. Great question.

Perhaps. I am very broken and warped. I do not trust women. I would not want to be vulnerable to a woman ever again. And I have lots of self-loathing and body shame. It is possible I would never have sex again, because I would never allow another woman to experience my perceived inadequacy (both physical and technique). Very hard to know. I was desperate for sex while single and working in my 20s. I would never want to be that desperate (and that unsuccessful) again. I might well restrain myself from having sex in order to prevent falling back into that pattern.

You know that old saying about keeping your mouth shut so at least you don't prove you are an idiot? I might keep my pants on to avoid proving I am inadequate and inept.

I told you guys, I am a very sick puppy.


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## _anonymous_

I wish I had the time to read this entire thread. I've gone through parts of it, and in general, find OP's points as very interesting.

I will credit OP as being very rational about his personal situation. As much as many of the posters have contended that his acceptance is unhealthy, I conditionally disagree.

Look, just because there's a problem doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be fixed. The problem's solution becomes non-essential at a point, and the individual's constructive coping with the problem becomes more important, along with the individual's earned value from tangible (or intangible) benefits to others, as a result of his or her acceptance of the problem. 

The decision-making of acceptance can be a very complex and qualitative analysis of benefits vs. costs involving multiple people within one's social sphere. I honestly believe OP has done this, and has found an equilibrium where he and others in his life are perceptibly better off with this current choice of inaction, more so than with an alternative choice of action. 

Quite abashedly, I must admit that I'm envious of OP. Acceptance is hard, and happiness is even harder. If indeed OP has found acceptance and happiness primarily in others rather than himself, he's better off than most of us, even without sex.


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## Holdingontoit

Yesterday I tried to kiss H2 on the way out the door to work. She turned her head to the side, so I used my tongue elsewhere. It tickled her and she was scared she would pee herself. She tried to get me to back away. I told her she could kiss me on the mouth or turn her head, but I was kissing her on whatever was facing in my direction.

Today I leaned in to kiss her and she smiled and kept her mouth facing me. I complimented her smile and she blushed. I like how we are getting along. She used to push me away if I got anywhere near her first thing in the morning.


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## 269370

Amazing! It's like watching a blind person being able to learn how to walk again! (or something along the lines)

Yeah, don't make her pee...unless you are into that stuff.

Congrats, sounds like you both are human beings, contrary to 'popular' belief


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> Yesterday I tried to kiss H2 on the way out the door to work. She turned her head to the side, so I used my tongue elsewhere. It tickled her and she was scared she would pee herself. She tried to get me to back away. I told her she could kiss me on the mouth or turn her head, but I was kissing her on whatever was facing in my direction.
> 
> Today I leaned in to kiss her and she smiled and kept her mouth facing me. I complimented her smile and she blushed. I like how we are getting along. She used to push me away if I got anywhere near her first thing in the morning.


That's sweet.  

So your life isn't 100% fire and brimstone then?

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## Holdingontoit

@kag123: No, not since I dropped sex. That is why I am staying on message: no sex. She likes it. She feels free to express herself affectionately without fear I will take it further.

I said our marriage is better than it ever was. And it is. I mentioned that to her last weekend. At first she tensed up at the thought that I wasn't thrilled with her earlier. Then I reminded her we spent 8 years in MC and ST, so it shouldn't come as a shock to her that I wasn't happy. She said she always felt positive feelings for me internally but she didn't always let those feelings show on the outside. I told her that it hurts when she holds it inside. She is trying to let it show. I like that.


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## 269370

Have you tried talking to her about 'intimacy' more recently? it sounds as though your wife is quite shy/introvert. I can completely understand why you don't want to go the 'sex route' but it doesn't mean you can't broach the subject with her at all, just to gauge what her thoughts are on it (for example whether she misses it), without leaving yourself exposed to her rejection.
I don't know what your conversations are typically like but it sounds a little bit (from the bits and pieces here and there) like you 'tell her' things and do less of the questioning/searching type of conversations where you let her do the talking and guide her a little bit with your questions.


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## _anonymous_

Holdingontoit said:


> That is why I am staying on message: no sex. She likes it. She feels free to express herself affectionately without fear I will take it further.


Did she suffer sexual abuse in her past? Thought I remembered that in the back story, but I could be mistaken. 

While sexually abused people will still naturally want sex, at the same time, I could understand some anxiety caused by the prospect of sex. This dynamic seems at play here.



Holdingontoit said:


> I told her that it hurts when she holds it inside. She is trying to let it show. I like that.


I think her attitude is a very positive sign, and will have long-term benefits for OP, perhaps even eventual intimacy. However, it's not best to set expectations on this. 

Deferred hopes lead to disappointment. Disappointment leads to depression. Depression does not lead to the dark side (that's fear, per Yoda), but it's still pretty bad. 

In a sexless marriage, it sometimes is best to drop all standards and expectations. This state of being is somewhat miserable, but it is less miserable than expecting things that don't happen. This ultimately makes the low-drive spouse (or, as I think of my wife, the "no-drive" spouse) to be happier, and gives the sex-starved spouse time back that would otherwise be spent arguing over sex.


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: She does not want to talk about sex. Except to list reasons why she is unwilling to engage in sex with me. That is the extent of the conversation. She will not discuss what feels good to her (she claims nothing does). She does not discuss what puts her in the mood (she claims nothing does). She does not want to discuss her current level of desire. Every once in a while back when I asked her about it, she got angry and said "don't you think I wish I wanted it more?" But there does not seem to be any path from here to there.
@_anonymous_: Yes, there is rape in her past. Yes, I suspect that the path "from here to there" would require her to deal with that past. Which she steadfastly refuses to do. So there is no path she is willing to embark on, and my pressing her to do so is counter-productive and harms our relationship.

I agree her recent attitude is a good sign. It benefits me. I doubt it will lead to sexual intimacy because I doubt I would be willing to allow that. But the only constant in life is change. So perhaps that will change as well.


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## turnera

"don't you think I wish I wanted it more"

hold, I have that conversation in my mind all the time. Just today I drove past an 'adult' shop DH and I used to go to, back before I was so unhappy with him for all the other reasons, back when I was happy 'enough' that I was willing to be somewhat open about sex, instead of where I am now, where I watch him closely every single day, waiting to see if he's going to make a move on me, and I fill with stress and anxiety if I sense that he is (we've been married so long I can tell if he is the instant he comes in the door).

Anyway, I drove past that store and I thought 'I know sex is good and healthy and I know I can't do it like he wants and I wish I could just get him to fix the things that are wrong with the marriage so that I could be more willing, enough that we could go back to a store like that. 

But I can't. It's taboo for me now. I can't go in a store like that because he will then expect me to willingly have sex with him. And I hate myself for that. And I hate him for knowing what I need in the marriage and being unwilling/unable to provide it. And then I hate that my life went the way it did such that I can't look at a male without thinking he uses women, the way all the men I've known used me.

She may really love you and want you to be unhappy yet be unable to 'cross that bridge,' like I can't, to be the kind of person you need. It's so very complicated.

And I GUARANTEE that if my DH took sex off the table, my relationship with him would instantly turn 180 degrees in the other direction. I would then be SAFE, be able to be a good person to him without being on guard 24/7 to fend him off.


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## 269370

The idea of sex is threatening. I can understand that, especially given H2's sexual history. One has to tread very carefully here (baby steps and yes, no expectations is better).


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## Holdingontoit

@turnera: Thank you for sharing. No fun at all. You have my sympathy. So does H2. I just wish what leads me to sympathize with her didn't hurt me so much.
@inmyprime: We don't tread there at all. We don't talk about sex. We don't talk about her history. The elephant is safely shunted off in the corner. Napping. I have no intention of waking the elephant. That can get one trampled.


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## Holdingontoit

@turnera: Nice weekend with H2. Sunday morning she got up and walked out of the bedroom. I rolled over and thought "boy it would be nice if she came back in and gave me a hug". And you know what? She did! As if she read my mind. Then she took a shower and went to work.

At lunch together I told her how pleased I was that she gave me that hug. She smiled. I thought she was going to cry. She was happy she could bring me joy. She said that all her life she was anxious and she never realized it was a problem. Now she got treatment for the cancer that calms her down and she realizes how different it is. She can be so much nicer to me because she isn't anxious and afraid all the time. I told her I am sorry it took cancer for her to realize the mechanism but I am glad she found out. She said she is too.


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## Faithful Wife

Dang....that made me cry a little.


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## john117

Cancer or any other similar scare puts a bit of a perspective on life. Whether the perspective changes permanently is left as an exercise for the reader. 

We've gone thru a couple scares and there were both followed by similar bounces.

If part of her post treatment includes​ anti anxiety type stuff, that's a different angle.


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## turnera

Cancer caused my former SIL to realize she needed to ditch my brother and run to the 'one that got away' 40 years ago. smh


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## Holdingontoit

Well, since I am not capable of getting @Faithful Wife off sexually, I guess touching her heart is the best I can hope for.

As for cancer changing H2, I think it is more that she had an untreated anxiety disorder / PTSD that she insisted did not exist. Then she got MM to deal with the chemotherapy. The MM reduced her anxiety. That allowed her caring side to emerge without triggering overwhelming fear that letting down her guard would leave her vulnerable to attack. I got home from work around midnight last night. She did not get all hissy that I disturbed her sleep. Small things make a world of difference.


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## lisacolorado

I too feel that I'm stuck for life. I think, though, that wherever I went, or whatever I did, even if I left my 28 year marriage, I'd still have to live in this same suit I occupy. I think when I live differently and see the world differently, it won't matter what my husband is like. So I'm fighting to keep my mind focused toward goals and purposes. But believe me, I can relate.


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## turnera

Yeah, she would never have addressed her anxiety related to her sexual dysfunction, but her getting to do it for a 'respectable' reason, well that's fine. 

Whatever, it's working.


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## turnera

lisacolorado said:


> I too feel that I'm stuck for life. I think, though, that wherever I went, or whatever I did, even if I left my 28 year marriage, I'd still have to live in this same suit I occupy. I think when I live differently and see the world differently, it won't matter what my husband is like. So I'm fighting to keep my mind focused toward goals and purposes. But believe me, I can relate.


Honey, that 'suit' can take you all over the world. One friend lives in Thailand and lives like a king. Another friend ditched his job and went to live on a beach in the Caribbean. One went from Boston to Houston to San Diego to Boston. 

You can be - and do - anything you want.


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## Holdingontoit

She is deeply ashamed of using MM. She doesn't want anyone to know. I told her no one would think less of her. Not worth arguing over. As you say, it is working. I hope she stays with it. She has to take the cancer drugs for 8 more years. Hopefully by then it will be legal for recreation. That way if she stops using, I can start!


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## Holdingontoit

In response to something @Faithful Wife said to @uhtred, I thought I would post the following recent event.



Faithful Wife said:


> If you can at least see how you are the one who set it up this way and stop wondering why she is the way she is, you might get some peace out of that, though.


Unlikely. I have accepted that my sexless marriage is my fault for tolerating resentment and being too passive and fearful to express my inner truth to my wife. It has brought me precious little peace.

Coincidentally, I expressed my inner truth to my wife this weekend. She was unhappy that I chose to have a drink after work with a buddy of mine who at one time in the past cheated on his wife. H2 was worried about what I might do while drinking with him (cheat on her?). I told her not to worry, I would never cheat on her.

The next day we were driving to lunch and I told her to relax, she did not ever have to worry about me cheating. Not because of some cliche professions of my love and how I could never hurt her like that. But because she could rely on my fear and shame to prevent me from cheating. H2 looked at me quizzically. I told her that I am very ashamed of my lousy body and tiny penis and lack of technique in the bedroom, so she could be assured that I would never allow another woman to experience my inadequacy. She told me not to think about myself that way. I told her "too late". She said "what makes you think you were the problem?" I said "I have a mirror".

On the way back from lunch, an old song came up on the radio. She said "that band was my first concert. I went with a female friend and I had such a great time. I looked around and said to my girlfriend 'wow, there are lots of cute guys here and they will share drinks with us, this is great'". Then she frowned and said "it hurt your feelings when I mentioned the cute guys, didn't it". I said no, don't worry about it. She insisted that she was sorry for saying something mean. I told her it wasn't mean and she was just sharing an event from her past. She kept telling me what she said was mean and she was sorry. I went from smiling and playful to frowning and serious and said "it wasn't mean and it didn't hurt my feelings because those feelings died a while ago so you can't hurt them any more". She teared up and walked away. I asked her what was wrong. She said she doesn't feel good about the 2 of us and our relationship. I said "why not". She said "because I hurt you so much and now I care and it hurts to know how much I hurt you". I told her not to get upset about it. I am staying despite it so we should just enjoy the present.

Last night I think she was feeling guilty. She put on a nighty and we were watching some Netflix and she pulled down the covers and spread her legs wide. She said she needs to air out. I think she was trying to seduce me. That doesn't work anymore. I kept stroking her hip but never tried to take it further. I think she was disappointed.

I am too far gone to let her "fix" things that way. Sex needs to be good for her for me to want to even attempt anything. As far as I know, sex is never good for her. When she is ready to talk about that and work on that I will consider participating. If she just wants me to get my rocks off by rubbing against her, well, my hand works just fine for that.


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## MrsAldi

Perhaps it's not about you at all, it's about her insecurity of herself. She believes that you're no longer attracted to her, for her that is a serious loss of power.

Why the need to bring up the cute guys and says it hurts your feelings that she is/was desirable? 


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## turnera

As odd as it sounds, you sound healthier now than ever before.


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## Holdingontoit

MrsAldi said:


> Perhaps it's not about you at all, it's about her insecurity of herself. She believes that you're no longer attracted to her, for her that is a serious loss of power.
> 
> Why the need to bring up the cute guys and says it hurts your feelings that she is/was desirable?


It is partly about her. She has understandable negativity toward sex and she knows she has not fulfilled her marital duty in that area. So she was saying "what makes you think that our sex problems were all your fault?" False premise. She can be messed up about sex (she is) and I can still be ugly and lousy in the sack. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

She knows it doesn't hurt my feelings that she is beautiful. She thought that it hurt my feelings to hear her carry on about having a great time gazing at all the cute guys at the concert. She knows I don't think of myself as handsome so she figured it hurt my feelings to hear her rave about a bunch of other guys who ARE good-looking. That might have hurt earlier in our marriage. It doesn't hurt now. The fact she got upset about what she said just confirms that she doesn't actually see me as "cute". She married me for other qualities. I understand this. She likes to pretend it isn't true. I called her on her BS. She doesn't like that.
@turnera: thanks. Seriously. Still, my response to you is similar to my response to Mrs. Aldi. I can be in a better place than before and still be in a very bad place. The two aren't mutually exclusive. >


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## Holdingontoit

Last night my wife put both arms around me, pulled me close, and leaned up for a peck / kiss. 25 years ago that was my dream. To be married to a beautiful woman who loves me and wants to pull me close and kiss me.

If only I did not have to give up sex to get here. Still, glass is half full.


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## chillymorn69

Just a suggestion...Let It go. Just let it go. and try to enjoy your wife's advances. 

I know you have been through alot. but its never to late.


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## Holdingontoit

chillymorn69 said:


> Just a suggestion...Let It go. Just let it go. and try to enjoy your wife's advances.
> 
> I know you have been through alot. but its never to late.


Not sure what you mean. Yesterday morning, my wife asked if we could snuggle (both off work and empty nesters so we have house to ourselves). I said "of course". She said "everything is so complicated". I said "no it is not, it is simple, we can snuggle any time you like, and we can have sex whenever the sex is about you getting off". She gave me a "harumph" which clearly indicated how absurd it was for me to imply that our sex might ever lead to her getting off. But she moved in for the snuggling. We had a nice hugging session. I enjoyed it very much. I am guessing she did too, since later in the day she mentioned that she was having a very nice day together and after dinner she gave me a two armed hug.

I am quite pleased to accept my wife's advances for snuggling. I am not interested in accepting any advances for one-sided sex. But given her clarification that spreading her legs and shoving her privates in my face was "just being playful" and definitely not intended by her as a sexual advance, and her harumphing at the ludicrous suggestion that she might ever get off from sex with me, I don't think anyone has to worry that there will be any sexual advances from her anytime soon. She seems to very much enjoy our non-sexual relationship. Which is what I suspected. And which adds more motivation to my resolve to never initiate sex with her again.

We get along far too well these days for me to ruin it by introducing sex into the equation. And I am doing my best to enjoy how well we get along. Which is why I posted the "glass half full" message. As much to reinforce in my own head that it IS half full and I should cherish what is in my glass.


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## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> But given her clarification that spreading her legs and shoving her privates in my face was "just being playful" and definitely not intended by her as a sexual advance, and her harumphing at the ludicrous suggestion that she might ever get off from sex with me, I don't think anyone has to worry that there will be any sexual advances from her anytime soon.


I think you're interpreting these two things in as bad a light as you can.

Not that you don't have a good reason to.

I think there *will *be sexual advances from her soon.

You'll need to prepare your response.

Only if the session consists of only your attempts to please her?


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## john117

Buddy400 said:


> I think you're interpreting these two things in as bad a light as you can.
> 
> Not that you don't have a good reason to.
> 
> I think there *will *be sexual advances from her soon.
> 
> You'll need to prepare your response.
> 
> Only if the session consists of only your attempts to please her?


It's not the time of the FIRST advance that matters. It's the time of the SECOND advance...

Without a paradigm shift into ones own sexuality, I'd rather have an apple pie than sex, if you get my drift 😎


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## Holdingontoit

Buddy400 said:


> Only if the session consists of only your attempts to please her?


Yes, at first.

I figure it will take me about 3 months to get into decent enough shape to have sex with her in a way that does not add to my shame and self-loathing. If she is willing to have regular (weekly) sex that consists only of my attempts to please her between her first ask and our first "try to please hold" session, then I am willing to engage in sessions designed to please her and will make an effort to get to where my heart is healthy enough for sexual activity. I can't see her agreeing to that because I honestly do not believe she knows of a way for me to get her off. But I am willing to give her a chance to prove me wrong.

I have no idea how she would "prove" to me that the sex was "good" for her or that she is at least trying to enjoy the sensation. On the other hand, at this point I am willing to let her pretend and I will play along. If she can have weekly "fake" sessions for 3 months, then I am willing to allow her to keep on faking for the rest of our lives. We have never had sex during 12 consecutive weeks. Heck, I don't think we ever had sex more than 3 or 4 consecutive weeks. So if she is willing to endure my inept ministrations and play along every week for 3 months, then I am willing to let her keep up the charade indefinitely.

I realize that is "complicated" and that I am creating "hoops" for her to jump through. So be it. All the years of our marriage when I was trying to have sex with her were stressful and frustrating. The past 2 years when I stopped trying to have sex with her have been the best 2 years of our marriage - at least for me. I am in no hurry and in fact am opposed to reintroducing sex to our marriage. So yes, I am going to set the bar high and make her invest substantial effort before I unlock the door to my heart and allow hope back in.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> I figure it will take me about 3 months to get into decent enough shape to have sex with her in a way that does not add to my shame and self-loathing.


You really need to do this completely independent of how it may or may not affect your/her willingness/desire to have sex.

Self-loathing is not good under any circumstances. You need to do what you can to feel good about yourself, again, regardless of the status of your sex life. Even if you never have sex again, being in shape to do so will have you feeling better about yourself, period. This can only be a good thing. 

The work you put into getting into shape will give you more energy and confidence, which you can apply to any endeavor in your life, not just sex.


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## Holdingontoit

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The work you put into getting into shape will give you more energy and confidence, which you can apply to any endeavor in your life, not just sex.


Nah, was in good shape a few years ago. Ran half a marathon. Did P90X. Felt worse emotionally. Was not more successful at work. I have actually become more successful at work since I stopped exercising regularly.

Being out of shape, I am less horny. Being out of shape, I am not tempted to cheat. Being out of shape, it is easy to refrain from initiating sex because I know I would have trouble getting it up and keeping it up - so trying to have sex would make me feel worse, not better. Being out of shape means I do not get an erection when I spoon with my wife. I like her not having any power over me. 

Plus I honestly and truly do not desire to have sex with her - which means that I do not react physically or subconsciously to her provocations. She always wanted the stoic silent type. I was too neurotic and emotional and anxious around her. Now I am calm. She likes calm.

If I am not leaving my wife or cheating on her (and I am not), then life is easier for me to be out of shape. When I am in shape, I feel like more of a wimpy doormat for staying with her. The only way I would get back into shape is if she made it clear that sex on my terms was going to happen. Otherwise I am rewarding her for a higher quality husband without getting anything back in return. This way, I may not be getting any sex but she is getting the dumpy out of shape less attractive version of me. I am not trying to maximize what I get out of life. I am simply trying to prevent her from getting more than I do.

Your advice is good advice for most people. I am a very weird duck and this works better for me.


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## pbj2016

Sounds like the 7th level of Hell that I would wish on no man or woman.


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## Holdingontoit

pbj2016 said:


> Sounds like the 7th level of Hell that I would wish on no man or woman.


Exactly. But as bad as this is for me, H2 is married to me. That can't be much better can it?

She frequently says that I would never be happy with anyone. That is how she relieves her guilt for not being what she presented herself to be. Eventually, I realized she was correct. I am masochistic and neurotic and depressed and anxious and I am never going to be happy. So I stopped trying to be. She says it is not easy to be married to someone as depressed as I am. That is when I realized: I am not going to get "even" by leaving her and finding someone else and being happy. That is an unrealistic fantasy and won't ever happen. No, if I leave her she will find someone else and be happy and I'll be alone and lonely (as I was before we got married). So if I am never going to be happy, and I want to be "even", the only thing I can do it hold on tight and do my best to ensure she never leaves me. That way, she never gets to be with anyone who is happy.

No need for sympathy for me. I am a very sick puppy and I have arranged things exactly as I wish them to be. Some of us aren't cut out for happy.


----------



## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly. But as bad as this is for me, H2 is married to me. That can't be much better can it?
> 
> She frequently says that I would never be happy with anyone. That is how she relieves her guilt for not being what she presented herself to be. Eventually, I realized she was correct. I am masochistic and neurotic and depressed and anxious and I am never going to be happy. So I stopped trying to be. She says it is not easy to be married to someone as depressed as I am. That is when I realized: I am not going to get "even" by leaving her and finding someone else and being happy. That is an unrealistic fantasy and won't ever happen. No, if I leave her she will find someone else and be happy and I'll be alone and lonely (as I was before we got married). So if I am never going to be happy, and I want to be "even", the only thing I can do it hold on tight and do my best to ensure she never leaves me. That way, she never gets to be with anyone who is happy.
> 
> No need for sympathy for me. *I am a very sick puppy* and I have arranged things exactly as I wish them to be. Some of us aren't cut out for happy.


 @Holdingontoit so your wife acknowledges that you would NEVER be happy with anyone and yet she remains by your side?

It sounds more like she has learned to accept who you are as a person as opposed to her relieving her own guilt?

I've seen you chime in on my thread about scheduling intimacy. Perhaps you could find it in yourself to enjoy some twisted and dark humor to sit down with your wife and make it a point to do the exact opposite, and schedule the days in which there will be NO intimacy. Make it a point to leave a few days undecided just to see what she will ask about those days. Then reply that you only want to focus on the days for sure that there will be NO intimacy (not even a hug) and that it is important just to ignore those other days for now. 

Badsanta


----------



## Holdingontoit

@badsanta: Who knows? Maybe acceptance of me. Maybe absolution for herself. Maybe a little of both.

I am not interested in scheduled absence of intimacy. I enjoy non-sexual intimacy. If we aren't going to have sex either way (and we aren't), then I might as well allow non-sexual intimacy whenever she wants it.

I am not interested in games to see if she will come on to me for sex. There is no point. I would reject her if she did. I am serious when I say that I am opposed to having Hold-oriented sex with her. Spontaneous sex in particular. To have sex with her at all, I need Viagra. Which takes time to kick in. Even if she were willing to allow me to massage or minister to her during the waiting period, it is just about certain that her willingness to have sex would disappear before my capacity to participate in penis-oriented sex occurred. Which is why I would rather skip the Viagra and just have H2 oriented sex. Which she rejects. Because H2 oriented sex does nothing for her. She wants me to climb on, do my thing, get off, and then roll off her. Sorry, not interested.


----------



## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> I am not interested in scheduled absence of intimacy. I enjoy non-sexual intimacy. If we aren't going to have sex either way (and we aren't), then I might as well allow non-sexual intimacy whenever she wants it.


What do the two of you do to make the most of nonsexual intimacy? I need to work on improving that in my marriage as I have just been focused on sex for too long?


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## Holdingontoit

I rub her feet, scrape off the calluses, apply lotion or oil. I massage her calves. I massage her scalp.
We hold hands while walking or while watching tv.
Sometimes I lean my head on her thigh while she is in bed reading and she rubs my neck or shoulder with her free hand.
I don't have to always remain outside her 18" zone of inviolable personal space.

Look, I am totally whipped and not getting any sex for it. I am accepting crumbs. I am not a good example for anyone trying to resolve their mismatch.

It is not like we take turns giving each other deep body massages. It is not like we go into the shower and wash each other and apply mud packs or scented oils.

But you know what is the most intimate thing I have ever done for her? I applied her hair color. More than once. That is when I knew she was in love with me. When she let me apply coloring agent to her grey roots.

And now she changes in front of me. I get to see her naked. Surgery scars and all. Because she knows that her being naked will not cause me to try for sex. So now she often changes in our bedroom. She used to get dressed in the bathroom or wait until I left the house so I wouldn't see her naked. Kinda ironic that when she had a totally killer body that I was dying to see, she wouldn't let me see it. But now that she has 3 long scars and hardly any boobs and no nipples, she is OK with me seeing her.

I guess I finally found a way to help her feel loved and not objectified. I do not suggest anyone follow in my footsteps. It absolutely is NOT worth the pain and aggravation. If you have to go to this level of sacrifice for something in your life to feel loved, get a puppy instead.


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## turnera

Holdingontoit said:


> I guess I finally found a way to help her feel loved and not objectified.


For someone in her (and my) position, the man is always the enemy, even if we love him and want him to be happy. Because we have to be on guard against his advances. It is a shame that people get together before these things are figured out. So they could choose otherwise.


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## Holdingontoit

@turnera: agreed. Such a shame


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## Satya

@Holdingontoit, I realize you say this strategy works for you, but I feel so darn depressed for you having to read it. 

Pleasing only her during sex (when she wants it) is going to get real old and tiring. It may take some years but man... You are in a prison of your own design and you have given her the only key. 

Sorry if I just don't understand well. I'm trying, and it just does not compute. You're not an odd duck, I think you've just decided to intentionally repress and squash everything that identifies with the spirit of a healthy, sexual male. And some day, you'll look back, when you're older and your T levels are dropping thanks to nature, and you'll look over at your roommate wife and regret stifling for HER, what nature gave and made you.


----------



## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> I rub her feet, scrape off the calluses, apply lotion or oil. I massage her calves. I massage her scalp.
> We hold hands while walking or while watching tv.
> Sometimes I lean my head on her thigh while she is in bed reading and she rubs my neck or shoulder with her free hand.
> I don't have to always remain outside her 18" zone of inviolable personal space.
> 
> Look, I am totally whipped and not getting any sex for it. I am accepting crumbs. I am not a good example for anyone trying to resolve their mismatch.
> 
> It is not like we take turns giving each other deep body massages. It is not like we go into the shower and wash each other and apply mud packs or scented oils.
> 
> *But you know what is the most intimate thing I have ever done for her? I applied her hair color. More than once. That is when I knew she was in love with me. When she let me apply coloring agent to her grey roots.*
> 
> And now she changes in front of me. I get to see her naked. Surgery scars and all. Because she knows that her being naked will not cause me to try for sex. So now she often changes in our bedroom. She used to get dressed in the bathroom or wait until I left the house so I wouldn't see her naked. Kinda ironic that when she had a totally killer body that I was dying to see, she wouldn't let me see it. But now that she has 3 long scars and hardly any boobs and no nipples, she is OK with me seeing her.
> 
> I guess I finally found a way to help her feel loved and not objectified. I do not suggest anyone follow in my footsteps. It absolutely is NOT worth the pain and aggravation. If you have to go to this level of sacrifice for something in your life to feel loved, get a puppy instead.


OMG, my wife asked me to help color her hair once, and then she second guessed at me and does not trust me, as she will only have that done at a beauty salon. I've been asking her to let me do it, but now for some reason she says no way!

I guess I have a ways to go!

Thanks for sharing,
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit

Satya said:


> Sorry if I just don't understand well. I'm trying, and it just does not compute. You're not an odd duck, I think you've just decided to intentionally repress and squash everything that identifies with the spirit of a healthy, sexual male. And some day, you'll look back, when you're older and your T levels are dropping thanks to nature, and you'll look over at your roommate wife and regret stifling for HER, what nature gave and made you.


 @Satya: I am already there. We have been basically sexless for 12 years since we stopped MC. I have been repressing myself for the entirety of our marriage (over 25 years). I am in my 50s and my T levels have already dropped. I regret many things in my life. I am sure I will regret many more. Completely eliminating sex from our lives is not one of them.

Like I said, I understand that staying with her squashes me, stifles my spirit, and leaves me less of a man and less of a human being. That is the point. She gets to live with me, but she is stuck with the weak, uninspired, depressed and damaged version of me. I figure that is a fair trade. I do not expect to be healthy and successful either way. I was a wimpy depressed pessimistic loser before I married her. Divorcing her isn't going to unleash the strong empowered optimistic version of me. There is no such version.

We get along well in terms of which food to order at dinner, which movies we like, which music we like, and what to watch on tv. We are going to get along great in old age. We are going to devote ourselves to the (God willing we get some) grandchildren. Maybe get a puppy. The more I am physically incapable of sex, the easier this gets. Being married to her was torture in my 30s and 40s. She had a killer body and climbing into bed every night and knowing sex was not going to happen was excruciating. Now I am less horny and she is less sexy and getting into bed with her and knowing nothing sexual is going to happen is no big deal. At least she is now willing to hold hands, whereas in the past when she was afraid I might try to initiate sex she wouldn't let me touch her at all.

We had a lovely day yesterday. Walk on the beach. Listened to music and even danced together for an hour. Found a cheap place with yummy Italian food for dinner. Until someone invents a time machine, there is no way for me to have a satisfying sex life. Given where I am now, this is the best outcome I could hope for.


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## Holdingontoit

@Satya: Last night and this morning illustrated the benefit of being in a totally sexless marriage. I said something on Wednesday that bothered my wife. She was in a bad mood and earlier in our marriage I would have been sent to the dog house. Thursday I sent her some texts apologizing and reassuring her how much I value her. She did not reply. She said we needed to talk. I asked her when was a good time. She said next week.

Now, back when we were having sex, I would have been deeply impacted by her being unhappy with me. Thursday I would have been depressed and I would have been obsessing over how to do things to help get her back into a better mood. I would have spent the entire weekend kissing up to her. And she would have indulged herself to remain angry with me, so she could soak up all that attention. I was totally whipped and submissive, and it turned both of us off. Sometime the following week she would have allowed us to talk and she would begrudgingly let me out of the dog house and back into her good graces. No sex would have occurred, but she would have conceded to talk to me in less condescending tone.

These days, her being unhappy was no big deal. I don't like it or enjoy it or want her to feel bad, but it doesn't prevent me from focusing on the rest of my life. I said something that made her upset. I apologized. I explained that I didn't mean what she interpreted my words to mean, but that I could see how they sounded that way to her. I told her that I will try hard to avoid giving that impression again. And then I dropped it and went about my business. Today she gave me a hug and told me she loves me. This version of our relationship is better.

You might wish for a version of our relationship where we behave this way and we also have sex. That version of our relationship exists only in fevered imagination. Trying to bring it into reality only causes pain and disappointment.


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## MEM2020

That's a very honest self assessment. 




Holdingontoit said:


> @Satya: Last night and this morning illustrated the benefit of being in a totally sexless marriage. I said something on Wednesday that bothered my wife. She was in a bad mood and earlier in our marriage I would have been sent to the dog house. Thursday I sent her some texts apologizing and reassuring her how much I value her. She did not reply. She said we needed to talk. I asked her when was a good time. She said next week.
> 
> Now, back when we were having sex, I would have been deeply impacted by her being unhappy with me. Thursday I would have been depressed and I would have been obsessing over how to do things to help get her back into a better mood. I would have spent the entire weekend kissing up to her. And she would have indulged herself to remain angry with me, so she could soak up all that attention. I was totally whipped and submissive, and it turned both of us off. Sometime the following week she would have allowed us to talk and she would begrudgingly let me out of the dog house and back into her good graces. No sex would have occurred, but she would have conceded to talk to me in less condescending tone.
> 
> These days, her being unhappy was no big deal. I don't like it or enjoy it or want her to feel bad, but it doesn't prevent me from focusing on the rest of my life. I said something that made her upset. I apologized. I explained that I didn't mean what she interpreted my words to mean, but that I could see how they sounded that way to her. I told her that I will try hard to avoid giving that impression again. And then I dropped it and went about my business. Today she gave me a hug and told me she loves me. This version of our relationship is better.
> 
> You might wish for a version of our relationship where we behave this way and we also have sex. That version of our relationship exists only in fevered imagination. Trying to bring it into reality only causes pain and disappointment.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> @Satya: Last night and this morning illustrated the benefit of being in a totally sexless marriage. I said something on Wednesday that bothered my wife. She was in a bad mood and earlier in our marriage I would have been sent to the dog house. Thursday I sent her some texts apologizing and reassuring her how much I value her. She did not reply. She said we needed to talk. I asked her when was a good time. She said next week.
> 
> Now, back when we were having sex, I would have been deeply impacted by her being unhappy with me. Thursday I would have been depressed and I would have been obsessing over how to do things to help get her back into a better mood. I would have spent the entire weekend kissing up to her. And she would have indulged herself to remain angry with me, so she could soak up all that attention. I was totally whipped and submissive, and it turned both of us off. Sometime the following week she would have allowed us to talk and she would begrudgingly let me out of the dog house and back into her good graces. No sex would have occurred, but she would have conceded to talk to me in less condescending tone.
> 
> These days, her being unhappy was no big deal. I don't like it or enjoy it or want her to feel bad, but it doesn't prevent me from focusing on the rest of my life. I said something that made her upset. I apologized. I explained that I didn't mean what she interpreted my words to mean, but that I could see how they sounded that way to her. I told her that I will try hard to avoid giving that impression again. And then I dropped it and went about my business. Today she gave me a hug and told me she loves me. This version of our relationship is better.
> 
> You might wish for a version of our relationship where we behave this way and we also have sex. That version of our relationship exists only in fevered imagination. Trying to bring it into reality only causes pain and disappointment.


I don't understand what this interaction has to do with sex, though. You should have always handled these arguments exactly as you just did - give a sincere apology and then drop it and go on living your life. At some point however long she decides to stay mad for is her problem, not yours. Are you saying you are physically incapable of continuing to live your life during an argument when sex is on the table? If so, why?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## john117

Because in a low sex marriage sex is always on the table, either as a reward or as a punishment... It's the ultimate in transactionalism.

Which throws out all the reasons to have sex as an act of intimacy...


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## Holdingontoit

kag123 said:


> At some point however long she decides to stay mad for is her problem, not yours.


Not when she is the gatekeeper of sex. While she has that role, then how long she stays mad at me is MY problem, because I am not going to get any sex while she remains angry with me. So if I want sex to occur, then I have to do my best to make her anger go away.



kag123 said:


> Are you saying you are physically incapable of continuing to live your life during an argument when sex is on the table? If so, why?


Yes. Because I become obsessed with her emotional state and its impact on our sex life. To me, given the constant state of sexual deprivation, anything that influences the availability of sex is of paramount important. It is like not drinking any liquids for a few days and then trying to ignore your thirst.

The beauty of a sexless marriage is that her emotional state no longer influences the availability of sex, so it is no longer an overwhelming distraction. It is like being thirsty but knowing that you can have a drink in an hour when it is coffee break time or lunch time or the end of your shift. Not nearly so distracting as if you are in the middle of a desert and your jeep just broke down and you aren't sure when you will be able to fix it or get to the next oasis.

Not saying that any of this is an attractive characteristic. I understand it makes me less attractive to most women. Not trying to justify it. Just explaining how the mechanism works.

And yes, several ICs and MCs and even one of the STs suggested I place less emphasis on sex. It took a while, but I finally have. But I never found a modulation knob. I just found an on/off switch. So I pressed "off" and am less troubled on a day-to-day or hour-by-hour basis.

@john117 stated it correctly, in a low sex marriage, the HD becomes hyper-sensitive to the LD's emotional state and the ever-shifting probability that sex might or might not occur in the near future.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> Not when she is the gatekeeper of sex. While she has that role, then how long she stays mad at me is MY problem, because I am not going to get any sex while she remains angry with me. So if I want sex to occur, then I have to do my best to make her anger go away.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Because I become obsessed with her emotional state and its impact on our sex life. To me, given the constant state of sexual deprivation, anything that influences the availability of sex is of paramount important. It is like not drinking any liquids for a few days and then trying to ignore your thirst.
> 
> The beauty of a sexless marriage is that her emotional state no longer influences the availability of sex, so it is no longer an overwhelming distraction. It is like being thirsty but knowing that you can have a drink in an hour when it is coffee break time or lunch time or the end of your shift. Not nearly so distracting as if you are in the middle of a desert and your jeep just broke down and you aren't sure when you will be able to fix it or get to the next oasis.
> 
> Not saying that any of this is an attractive characteristic. I understand it makes me less attractive to most women. Not trying to justify it. Just explaining how the mechanism works.
> 
> And yes, several ICs and MCs and even one of the STs suggested I place less emphasis on sex. It took a while, but I finally have. But I never found a modulation knob. I just found an on/off switch. So I pressed "off" and am less troubled on a day-to-day or hour-by-hour basis.
> 
> @john117 stated it correctly, in a low sex marriage, the HD becomes hyper-sensitive to the LD's emotional state and the ever-shifting probability that sex might or might not occur in the near future.


I guess that's really foreign thinking to me, but thanks for explaining it! Did all those therapists actually give you solutions to try to fix the problem, or did they just leave you to your own devices to try to figure it out? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

kag123 said:


> I guess that's really foreign thinking to me, but thanks for explaining it! Did all those therapists actually give you solutions to try to fix the problem, or did they just leave you to your own devices to try to figure it out?


Over the course of 8 years of MC and ST, some of both. Many started by seeing if communication could resolve the issue, but that was not our problem. Each of us knew what the other wanted more of and less of, we were simply incapable of providing it. If we were not both stubborn and old fashioned, and dedicated to our kids, we might have wised up and gotten divorced. But we are who we are, so we slogged on through years of trying to resolve the mismatch.

The MCs gave us homework. Go one date nights. Buy her flowers. So we did. Had a great time. Then got home and she turned to me and said "thanks for a nice evening, I hope you realize we aren't going to have sex."

So after years of this we stopped the MC went to another licensed certified ST (we had gone to others while doing MC as well but those were worthless because they assumed we were having sex and offered new and different ways to have sex but that was irrelevant since we were basically not having sex at all). She gave us homework. Hug while fully clothed. Get naked and look but don't touch. Massage neck and shoulders but no touching "tingly bits". I think after a separate session she wanted H2 to look at her vjayjay in the mirror and tell herself how beautiful it is. Anyway, didn't matter what the homework was because H2 never did any of it.

So quit the ST and on to a new MC. This one used the Harley method so we focused first on Love Busters. I thought maybe the problem was not that I wasn't meeting her needs, but that I was doing too many Love Busters. So we worked on those. We got to the point that both of us agreed the other person was not doing things that destroyed our love in a major way. Then the MC moved on to meeting needs and H2 simply could not bring herself to meet mine. Nor could I generate enough income to satisfy H2's needs. When it became clear that neither of us was going to change our behavior to satisfy our spouse, the MC fired us.

So yes, the MCs and STs gave us suggestions of things to try. Some were communication oriented. Some were behavior oriented. None made any difference. The only thing that has made any difference is me refusing to have sex with her. That changed the dynamic in a big way.


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## MEM2020

Therapy only works if the person whose core needs aren't being met, is willing to either:
1. End the marriage if it doesn't improve or
2. Do what needs doing even if their partner threatens to end the marriage 

Most folks in crap marriages come on here and say - divorce is not an option - which is fine. Sadly - for many of them that ALSO means (2) - they won't rock the boat. 

Once you eliminate (1 and 2) you create a situation where your partner knows that they can safely ignore your needs. 






kag123 said:


> I guess that's really foreign thinking to me, but thanks for explaining it! Did all those therapists actually give you solutions to try to fix the problem, or did they just leave you to your own devices to try to figure it out?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

@mem2020 I would say to people in crap marriages: if divorce is not an option then neither is happiness.

The weird thing is, some if us are OK with that.


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## MEM2020

Holding,
That's not really my point. To reiterate - it's ok to take divorce off the table. 

But - in a very real sense - (2) is about taking conflict off the table. 

At some level you kind of don't want to understand. 

There is this guy - who tells such an interesting story. 

So this guy reaches his breaking point at year 20. And starts doing stuff that is - unusual. At social gatherings he responds to standard questions such as: so how you doing? With:
- I'm unhappy, I'm in a sexless marriage and don't like it
- When pressed about why he replied with: don't know, it's 'wifename' choice, you'd have to ask her why she thinks it's ok
- When his wife aggressively demanded he stop doing this he replied with: No. Not gonna keep pretending this is a happy marriage - not gonna lie about why. When she threatened to stop attending their social events he told her she didn't have to come, but it wouldn't change his narrative. Which totally freaked her out - unescorted H vocally claiming to be unhappy about sexless marriage = target for other women 

And - he told her not to touch him in public anymore. He said: don't do in public what you won't do in private. 

That is (2). Two isn't - **** me or I'm divorcing you. Two is - if the marriage is - every person for themself - why project this Norman Rockwell image. It's dishonest. And it feels sickening to the unhappy spouse. 

At this point his wife tried to give him hostile sex, he firmly declined. Same with pity sex. He said, I'm not sleeping with you unless you commit to a goal of twice a week and a definitive dead certain guarantee of once a week. 

Or don't bother - and we can keep doing what we are doing. But if you start and then stop - the marriage will end - pretty quickly. 

----------
They never had a desire issue - she was just power tripping and he was stupidly tolerant for a long time. 





Holdingontoit said:


> @mem2020 I would say to people in crap marriages: if divorce is not an option then neither is happiness.
> 
> The weird thing is, some if us are OK with that.


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## john117

Great, MEM. you just confirmed that my marital warfare approach has merit. Now if I could only put Angry Birds 2 down and write a paper about it 😎

What you describe is pretty accurate. The marriage quickly degenerates into a free for all and by then it's too late. If they manage to keep it quiet they can save face but generally speaking things come out. The appearance of properness is important.


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## Satya

@Holdingontoit, thanks for your insight into everything. I see a bit better how this works for you. I can still stay that I just do not fully understand and maybe I'm not meant to. 

You say at 50 you're feeling the effects of "age" already, and you have a good companionship with your wife clearly and have a pretty fulfilling life. If that makes you happy or if you feel that's the apex of what you can achieve with your wife, who am I to say otherwise? 

I met Odo as he was about to turn 50 and I 34. His prior marriage of 12 years and long term relationship of 10 after that were both devoid of passion. He is about as honest a man as I've ever known and he admits to his failings in both relationships which may have helped lead to decrease respect, then decrease in sex leading up to essentially a dead bedroom.

When he found me, he had a lot of passion still to give and I was prepared to give it back in spades. I'm not comparing, I'm just sharing a story from my perspective. Growing old together with someone you've known and been through a lot of life with does sound more comforting than having to try all over again at 50, where the future is less certain. I simply don't think I could take the approach you have and feel settled in my spirit. There's something in your words that almost pains me, as if it's a story you've played out in your mind so many times over and over so that it then becomes your convinced reality. Because it's easier to accept than fight a fight that goes nowhere and puts you in the "dog house." Maybe I'm way off. 

I won't question your choices, they are your choices and only you can decide what's best for you. It still pains me to read into what lies behind the words... I guess that's all!


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## Holdingontoit

@mem2020: in your example, when the guy starts publicly announcing that he is unhappy with the lack of sex, and refuses to stop when his wife asks him to, then he has implicitly decided that divorce is "on the table". He might never choose to file himself, but he has basically thrown down the gauntlet and dared his wife to either have sex or file for divorce. He has made staying in a sexless marriage untenable for his wife. 

When I refer to someone saying "divorce is not an option" I mean not only refraining from filing but also refraining from acting in a way that substantially increases the likelihood that your spouse will file. To me, there is little practical or psychological difference between filing vs acting in a way that you know will result in your spouse feeling compelled to file.


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## Holdingontoit

@Satya: thanks for the thoughts. I know I am making a foolish choice. But I also know I am too lazy, weak and fearful to do otherwise.

As my first post on this thread says, I am not posting to convince anyone it is OK to do this. I am setting an example of what not to do.


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## MEM2020

Holding,
This is where you and I see the world in a radically different manner. 

Much as I believe the word 'abuse' to be grossly over used in the modern world, and uneasy as I am extending abuse to neglect - where adults are concerned - here goes. 

It's abuse - you enter into a bidirectional - monopolistic - arrangement with me - and then neglect activities you have monopolized. 

You kind of lost the thread early on and never got it back. Imagine how your wife responds the first time you tell your friends she's abusing you via neglect. 

Outraged that you made her look bad and feigned outrage that you are talking about personal/private stuff to friends. 

But the personal/private angle is dishonest. It's just meta data. Like if you told friends your wife talks to her mom twice a week on the phone for about twenty minutes.

As to why she would be embarrassed - that is where you play the card of - if you think it's ok to do this - why are you embarrassed. If you recognize it's abusive, why aren't you in IC?

------------
Reason your wife doesn't respect you is that you aren't willing to define a defensible position and then let the cards fall as they fall. A woman generally won't sleep with a man she doesn't respect. 







Holdingontoit said:


> @mem2020: in your example, when the guy starts publicly announcing that he is unhappy with the lack of sex, and refuses to stop when his wife asks him to, then he has implicitly decided that divorce is "on the table". He might never choose to file himself, but he has basically thrown down the gauntlet and dared his wife to either have sex or file for divorce. He has made staying in a sexless marriage untenable for his wife.
> 
> When I refer to someone saying "divorce is not an option" I mean not only refraining from filing but also refraining from acting in a way that substantially increases the likelihood that your spouse will file. To me, there is little practical or psychological difference between filing vs acting in a way that you know will result in your spouse feeling compelled to file.


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## MEM2020

That's the whole point. They will feel compelled to do - something. Might be divorce, might be address the issue. 

Most of your problems - have nothing to do with sex. Your sexual issues are merely a symptom. 




Holdingontoit said:


> @mem2020: in your example, when the guy starts publicly announcing that he is unhappy with the lack of sex, and refuses to stop when his wife asks him to, then he has implicitly decided that divorce is "on the table". He might never choose to file himself, but he has basically thrown down the gauntlet and dared his wife to either have sex or file for divorce. He has made staying in a sexless marriage untenable for his wife.
> 
> When I refer to someone saying "divorce is not an option" I mean not only refraining from filing but also refraining from acting in a way that substantially increases the likelihood that your spouse will file. To me, there is little practical or psychological difference between filing vs acting in a way that you know will result in your spouse feeling compelled to file.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Yes, I understand why she doesn't respect me, and that women don't sleep with men they don't respect. I have even posted that to others.

You seem to think that if I understood, then I would seek to earn her respect. Since that is the route that has the best chance to resolve the sexless marriage situation. How many times do I have to post that I am NOT trying to or interested in trying to resolve it?

I prefer to devote my energies to polishing my resentment. I have made that clear. I am not misleading anyone who participates on this thread.

I understood your story. I am simply unwilling to implement the "moral" of the story. To implement is to risk that my wife says "if you stop pretending our marriage works for you, then I will leave you". Most would say, given how I feel about our marriage, that her leaving would be the best thing that could happen to me. It is a testament to how very damaged I am that I agree, but refuse to do it.

As I have said over and over again, I stand as testament to just how damaging it can be to allow sexless marriage to continue indefinitely. I am not seeking healing. I am rushing headlong in the opposite direction.


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,

I'm suggesting nothing. Your marriage is baked - way too much baggage and bad precedent. 

I just think - the more honest definition of it would be a 'respect-less' marriage. 

You frame this as a sex thing, and that puts more of the blame on her - than is warranted. 




Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, I understand why she doesn't respect me, and that women don't sleep with men they don't respect. I have even posted that to others.
> 
> You seem to think that if I understood, then I would seek to earn her respect. Since that is the route that has the best chance to resolve the sexless marriage situation. How many times do I have to post that I am NOT trying to or interested in trying to resolve it?
> 
> I prefer to devote my energies to polishing my resentment. I have made that clear. I am not misleading anyone who participates on this thread.
> 
> I understood your story. I am simply unwilling to implement the "moral" of the story. To implement is to risk that my wife says "if you stop pretending our marriage works for you, then I will leave you". Most would say, given how I feel about our marriage, that her leaving would be the best thing that could happen to me. It is a testament to how very damaged I am that I agree, but refuse to do it.
> 
> As I have said over and over again, I stand as testament to just how damaging it can be to allow sexless marriage to continue indefinitely. I am not seeking healing. I am rushing headlong in the opposite direction.


----------



## Holdingontoit

MEM2020 said:


> I just think - the more honest definition of it would be a 'respect-less' marriage.
> 
> You frame this as a sex thing, and that puts more of the blame on her - than is warranted.


Oh, in that case, I agree with you. One of my most serious problems is a lack of respect for myself. Many other problems are just symptoms of that.

I agree with you that I am responsible for much of the problem. If someone can describe themselves as fearful, weak and lazy, and not try to change any of that, they have much bigger problems than a lack of sex. The lack of sex is the shiny object I use to help distract myself from the real problem. Because I am the real problem. I have met the enemy and he is me.


----------



## MEM2020

You don't strike me as lazy. 

And it's difficult to feel less fearful than - we are hard wired to be. 





Holdingontoit said:


> Oh, in that case, I agree with you. One of my most serious problems is a lack of respect for myself. Many other problems are just symptoms of that.
> 
> I agree with you that I am responsible for much of the problem. If someone can describe themselves as fearful, weak and lazy, and not try to change any of that, they have much bigger problems than a lack of sex. The lack of sex is the shiny object I use to help distract myself from the real problem. Because I am the real problem. I have met the enemy and he is me.


----------



## Holdingontoit

As you say, the issue if not fear, it is a lack of bravery. Leaves me in the same place. My fear exceeds my desire to change

I built H2 a new door for the garbage shed over the weekend. She complained that the old sheet of plywood stained deep cherry was ugly. So I spent the weekend cutting and staining cedar paneling and then screwing it to new plywood and attaching a 1 x 6 so it won't warp. She came back from visiting a friend out of state and actually liked it. Usually my handiwork is too amateur and brutalist for her taste. She said this looks like a woodworker made it. Score one for me.


----------



## anonmd

MEM2020 said:


> You don't strike me as lazy.
> 
> And it's difficult to feel less fearful than - we are hard wired to be.


A lazy man does not engage in MC and ST for 7 or 8 years trying to solve the problem - that is not lazy. 

Fearful and weak? That may well apply based on personal experience, it is related to excessive beating of your head against the unresponsive wall of you wife's refusal. Maybe you were fearful and weak from the beginning but I doubt it - the years of therapy were at your insistence no? So then it developed later, based on experience.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@anonmd: I disagree. Going to MC and ST is much less work than divorcing, raising kids after divorce, rebuilding finances after divorce, searching for someone to have dinner with on Saturday night, etc. MC and ST was the lazy and conflict-avoidant choice while pretending to be trying to resolve the problem.

I have always been fearful and weak. The marriage just made it worse. As I have said often, without the marriage I don't go back to being happy. Or brave and strong. There never was a brave or strong H. And there never will be. That is a self-fulfilling prophesy. And a large part of why I stay.


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,

I don't think you were dealt a good hand for dealing with members of the opposite sex. So - maybe fearful of sexual relationships, but you don't strike me as generally fearful. 





Holdingontoit said:


> @anonmd: I disagree. Going to MC and ST is much less work than divorcing, raising kids after divorce, rebuilding finances after divorce, searching for someone to have dinner with on Saturday night, etc. MC and ST was the lazy and conflict-avoidant choice while pretending to be trying to resolve the problem.
> 
> I have always been fearful and weak. The marriage just made it worse. As I have said often, without the marriage I don't go back to being happy. Or brave and strong. There never was a brave or strong H. And there never will be. That is a self-fulfilling prophesy. And a large part of why I stay.


----------



## Holdingontoit

MEM2020 said:


> I don't think you were dealt a good hand for dealing with members of the opposite sex. So - maybe fearful of sexual relationships, but you don't strike me as generally fearful.


You simply do not know me very well.

Look, the one thing I am guessing you will concede is that I am fearlessly honest here. I don't hold back from critiquing myself. You may think I am exaggerating my weaknesses. I assure you I am not.

I was dealt a perfectly fine hand for dealing with the opposite sex. I might not be tall and handsome and well built, but I am witty and compassionate and not too proud to get my hands dirty. My problems are self-imposed. Laziness, weakness and fear. I allow them to run my life. I know it, and I do nothing to fight against it. The thought of doing anything about it fills me with terror and dread. I can feel my autonomic nervous system going crazy as I sit here typing this post. Just thinking about taking action to improve my situation tightens my chest, causes my pulse to be rapid and I feel dizzy. I don't like feeling this way, so I mostly avoid thinking about changing my situation.


----------



## MEM2020

You are indeed fearlessly honest. 

It's a very appealing quality. 





Holdingontoit said:


> You simply do not know me very well.
> 
> Look, the one thing I am guessing you will concede is that I am fearlessly honest here. I don't hold back from critiquing myself. You may think I am exaggerating my weaknesses. I assure you I am not.
> 
> I was dealt a perfectly fine hand for dealing with the opposite sex. I might not be tall and handsome and well built, but I am witty and compassionate and not too proud to get my hands dirty. My problems are self-imposed. Laziness, weakness and fear. I allow them to run my life. I know it, and I do nothing to fight against it. The thought of doing anything about it fills me with terror and dread. I can feel my autonomic nervous system going crazy as I sit here typing this post. Just thinking about taking action to improve my situation tightens my chest, causes my pulse to be rapid and I feel dizzy. I don't like feeling this way, so I mostly avoid thinking about changing my situation.


----------



## Livvie

Holdingontoit said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you were dealt a good hand for dealing with members of the opposite sex. So - maybe fearful of sexual relationships, but you don't strike me as generally fearful.
> 
> 
> 
> You simply do not know me very well.
> 
> Look, the one thing I am guessing you will concede is that I am fearlessly honest here. I don't hold back from critiquing myself. You may think I am exaggerating my weaknesses. I assure you I am not.
> 
> I was dealt a perfectly fine hand for dealing with the opposite sex. I might not be tall and handsome and well built, but I am witty and compassionate and not too proud to get my hands dirty. My problems are self-imposed. Laziness, weakness and fear. I allow them to run my life. I know it, and I do nothing to fight against it. The thought of doing anything about it fills me with terror and dread. I can feel my autonomic nervous system going crazy as I sit here typing this post. Just thinking about taking action to improve my situation tightens my chest, causes my pulse to be rapid and I feel dizzy. I don't like feeling this way, so I mostly avoid thinking about changing my situation.
Click to expand...

Perhaps the laziness, weakness and fear you list come from decades of living the kind of dynamic you have lived--- with a wife who has never been able to provide you with even a halfway loving or fulfilling intimate part of a marriage.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Mem2020 said:


> You are indeed fearlessly honest.
> 
> It's a very appealing quality.


In a friend or a fellow forum poster, maybe. I can assure you that it is not sexually attractive to women, at least not when the honesty is combined with self-loathing. I am highly confident that most women would find me more attractive if I lied about my level of self-loathing. Honesty plus confidence (he is not gaming me, he is attractive and truly finds me attractive) is a plus. Honesty plus self-loathing is appreciated (at least he let me know he is a loser before I got too involved) but it won't get you much sex.



Livvie said:


> Perhaps the laziness, weakness and fear you list come from decades of living the kind of dynamic you have lived--- with a wife who has never been able to provide you with even a halfway loving or fulfilling intimate part of a marriage.


It seems I cannot say this often enough: I was lazy, weak and fearful before I met my wife. She is not the cause of the problem. I was this way long before I met her. My entire life. I was fearful in middle school and high school and college and graduate school. I always figured that eventually with enough degrees and a decent job I would feel better about myself, but it never happened.

Marriage to someone who did not find me sexually attractive was the last nail in the coffin of my self-respect but it is not the cause of my self-doubt. That existed long long before I met H2. It would not disappear if I divorced her.


----------



## kag123

Would you at least say that there are some good qualities to your marriage?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

kag123 said:


> Would you at least say that there are some good qualities to your marriage?


Yes, of course. I think I have posted that quite often.

H2 is a lovely person to everyone else. She is devoted to the kids and great at every job she ever had and a good friend and generally decent person to have around. And she treats me well so long as I don't want any sex.

We co-parent very well. We are a nice balance of strict and flexible and we generally have similar values that we are trying to pass on to our kids.

We like the same food and music and movies and generally get along well as long as I let her spend the money she wants to spend and don't ask her for sex.

So basically we get along great except for the Big Two: sex and money. Yes, there are many good qualities to our marriage. It is just that when you don't get along as to sex and money, there is a big missing piece in your marriage even if you get along well as to everything else.


----------



## alexm

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, of course. I think I have posted that quite often.
> 
> H2 is a lovely person to everyone else. She is devoted to the kids and great at every job she ever had and a good friend and generally decent person to have around. And she treats me well so long as I don't want any sex.
> 
> We co-parent very well. We are a nice balance of strict and flexible and we generally have similar values that we are trying to pass on to our kids.
> 
> We like the same food and music and movies and generally get along well as long as I let her spend the money she wants to spend and don't ask her for sex.
> 
> So basically we get along great except for the Big Two: sex and money. Yes, there are many good qualities to our marriage. It is just that when you don't get along as to sex and money, there is a big missing piece in your marriage even if you get along well as to everything else.


It sounds to me like you guys would be really great friends and could co-parent absolutely fine from different homes. Maybe even on the same street.

I've known more than one couple who split up, co-parented, and had a wonderful relationship with one another afterwards.


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## turnera

hold, I hope you find your Katherine Hepburn.


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## Holdingontoit

turnera said:


> hold, I hope you find your Katherine Hepburn.


Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment. But I will never allow that to occur. Like I always say, polishing my resentment is job #1. H2 is making that tougher these days by being more pleasant and affectionate. I will just have to up my polishing game.


----------



## brooklynAnn

Holdingontoit said:


> Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment. But I will never allow that to occur. Like I always say, polishing my resentment is job #1. H2 is making that tougher these days by being more pleasant and affectionate. I will just have to up my polishing game.


> You kill me..


----------



## Personal

MEM2020 said:


> Therapy only works if the person whose core needs aren't being met, is willing to either:
> 1. End the marriage if it doesn't improve or
> 2. Do what needs doing even if their partner threatens to end the marriage
> 
> Most folks in crap marriages come on here and say - divorce is not an option - which is fine. Sadly - for many of them that ALSO means (2) - they won't rock the boat.
> 
> Once you eliminate (1 and 2) you create a situation where your partner knows that they can safely ignore your needs.





MEM2020 said:


> Holding,
> That's not really my point. To reiterate - it's ok to take divorce off the table.
> 
> But - in a very real sense - (2) is about taking conflict off the table.
> 
> At some level you kind of don't want to understand.
> 
> There is this guy - who tells such an interesting story.
> 
> So this guy reaches his breaking point at year 20. And starts doing stuff that is - unusual. At social gatherings he responds to standard questions such as: so how you doing? With:
> - I'm unhappy, I'm in a sexless marriage and don't like it
> - When pressed about why he replied with: don't know, it's 'wifename' choice, you'd have to ask her why she thinks it's ok
> - When his wife aggressively demanded he stop doing this he replied with: No. Not gonna keep pretending this is a happy marriage - not gonna lie about why. When she threatened to stop attending their social events he told her she didn't have to come, but it wouldn't change his narrative. Which totally freaked her out - unescorted H vocally claiming to be unhappy about sexless marriage = target for other women
> 
> And - he told her not to touch him in public anymore. He said: don't do in public what you won't do in private.
> 
> That is (2). Two isn't - **** me or I'm divorcing you. Two is - if the marriage is - every person for themself - why project this Norman Rockwell image. It's dishonest. And it feels sickening to the unhappy spouse.
> 
> At this point his wife tried to give him hostile sex, he firmly declined. Same with pity sex. He said, I'm not sleeping with you unless you commit to a goal of twice a week and a definitive dead certain guarantee of once a week.
> 
> Or don't bother - and we can keep doing what we are doing. But if you start and then stop - the marriage will end - pretty quickly.
> 
> ----------
> They never had a desire issue - she was just power tripping and he was stupidly tolerant for a long time.


Gold.


----------



## Personal

Holdingontoit said:


> Thank you. I appreciate the sentiment. But I will never allow that to occur. Like I always say, polishing my resentment is job #1. H2 is making that tougher these days by being more pleasant and affectionate. *I will just have to up my polishing game.*


Why?


----------



## sokillme

Seems to me your life is just one big elaborate troll on yourself. You must get something out if it. I suspect it is posting on here and getting the reaction you do.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@Personal: Why keep polishing the resentment? So I don't go back to being a doormat. As long as I keep my resentment high, I can be the externally stoic non-reactive person she wants to be with. The resentment helps me not care about her mood changes. And helps me keep everything bottled up inside. As I have said before, I spent many years being open and honest with her. Got kicked in the teeth again and again. Not going back there. The resentment helps me keep my mask on.

@sokillme: yes, I think that is pretty close.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Amazing how Mrs H has transformed. Late Sunday afternoon we went to the beach to listen to a band play a sunset concert. The clouds rolled in and a breeze was blowing and Mrs H got cold. I offered to walk back to the car and get her a sweater. Instead, she sat on my lap and let me put my arms around her to warm her up. That would never have happened in the bad old days.

But don't worry, I think the reason she felt comfortable doing that was because she had oral surgery on Friday. She knew we could not even kiss so she had nothing to worry about.

And yes, I realize that my attitude and internal dialogue are now the major obstacles to my enjoying our marriage. That is how I want it. I am in control. I have power over the outcome. Maybe only the power to ensure a negative outcome, but at least I am not subject to her whims and caprices. She no longer has the power to control my enjoyment of our marriage. That is what I wanted, and that is what I have obtained. Might be a pyrrhic victory, but compared to all the prior defeats I will take it.

She tells me all the time how much she loves me and how happy she is to be married to me. That is what I longed to hear when we first got married. Now it makes no difference to how I feel. She wanted a stoic non-reactive husband. Now she has one. She seems to be happy, so I guess she knew what she wanted.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I am such an idiot. I allowed a crack in the wall to show.

A few days ago H2 and I had a nice afternoon together and in the evening she blew me kisses from across the room. I commented that it was a shame her sensitivity to my taste and smell turned her off to kissing me closer than that. She said something like "why don't you try kissing me more often and see what happens".

I did not act on it in the moment. That was probably a good idea. What was a bad idea was to think she was serious or to think that a brief glimmer of interest might last more than a few nanoseconds.

Last night I came home earlier than usual from work. When she got home from her work she was surprised to see me. I told her I was at work late Monday and would be at work late on Wednesday so I came home early to spend some time with my wife while she was awake. She smiled, changed into her pajamas and got into bed. I brushed my teeth and put on cologne and got into bed next to her. She motioned for me to come closer to her and put my head on her hip. I lay down next to her and put my arm across her belly. Just below the rib cage. I slowly rubbed my fingers along her lowest ribs and the top of her hip.

She then frowned, pushed me away and said "I am sorry, but you are making me feel very uncomfortable. You told me to be honest with you about how I feel, so I am being honest."

I am such an idiot. How did I allow her to trick me AGAIN?!? Why did I think that her motioning me to come closer and lay my head on her was anything except a test to see if I was still under her power and control?

Thankfully there are another 10 character classes to play in the 40 hour computer game I finished over the weekend. So that should occupy all the time I am inside the house and awake for the next 6 months.


----------



## turnera

I'm so sorry.


----------



## anonmd

It was the cologne, showed you were vulnerable to being crushed .


----------



## Holdingontoit

anonmd said:


> It was the cologne, showed you were vulnerable to being crushed .


Yes, I think you are correct.

I am thinking of getting some of that wolf urine you can use as deer repellent and putting that into a spray bottle and using that as cologne.


----------



## Taxman

You are really lucky that you can bottle yourself up. There is a danger to that. One day it may blow up on your wife. I would not want to be in her shoes the day that you blow. As you say, you use your resentment as emotional fuel. I am of the belief that is playing with fire. Nebulous statement, but....she pokes the bear. For whatever reason, that is an unknown, teasing you then shutting you down. To say that is unhealthy and dangerous is an understatement. She may think she knows you, but I know rage. I lived with a rageholic. Please find an outlet for what you are bottling up.


----------



## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> She then frowned, pushed me away and said "I am sorry, but you are making me feel very uncomfortable. You told me to be honest with you about how I feel, so I am being honest."


For what it is worth, sometimes when my wife and I snuggle, if I lay my head on her hip or lap it can be physically uncomfortable (too much pressure on a nerve or her back, something) and she will ask me to shift to a better spot. 
@Holdingontoit you may be so scarred that you could easily misinterpret a squished nerve/joint while snuggling as if your wife is emotionally disturbed for you to get too close. 

Just for the heck of it, snuggle with her again, but toss a bunch of pillows/covers in between. This way if you are at risk of putting too much pressure on her leg/arm/hip, she will only be able to complain that the covers and pillows are making her too hot. So preemptively crank the AC down to about 60º F to prevent that.

Then enjoy a nice conversation about how yummy those garlic/cheese dogs you just ate at Dairy Queen were, and ask her if she wants to try out how they taste by giving you a kiss!


----------



## Livvie

badsanta said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> 
> She then frowned, pushed me away and said "I am sorry, but you are making me feel very uncomfortable. You told me to be honest with you about how I feel, so I am being honest."
> 
> 
> 
> For what it is worth, sometimes when my wife and I snuggle, if I lay my head on her hip or lap it can be physically uncomfortable (too much pressure on a nerve or her back, something) and she will ask me to shift to a better spot.
> 
> @Holdingontoit you may be so scarred that you could easily misinterpret a squished nerve/joint while snuggling as if your wife is emotionally disturbed for you to get too close.
> 
> Just for the heck of it, snuggle with her again, but toss a bunch of pillows/covers in between. This way if you are at risk of putting too much pressure on her leg/arm/hip, she will only be able to complain that the covers and pillows are making her too hot. So preemptively crank the AC down to about 60º F to prevent that.
> 
> Then enjoy a nice conversation about how yummy those garlic/cheese dogs you just ate at Dairy Queen were, and ask her if she wants to try out how they taste by giving you a kiss!
Click to expand...

It sure didn't come across to me as just physically uncomfortable. Seems she meant emotionally/sexually uncomfortable.


----------



## john117

Marital warfare is your friend. I doubt this was a test, which would assume intent on her behalf. I think it's simply her naive side coming through.


----------



## Affaircare

Hi @Holdingontoit, 

You and I have known each other for what...17 years or so? (I used to be FaithfulWifeCJ on MB...etc.) My point is that I know you and MrsHold and "your story" pretty well, and I know this isn't just another thread where you need encouragement in order to have more sex with your wife. 

Okay, so all that being said, I have two thoughts here. On the one hand, you did tell her to be honest with you, and I'm assuming you really did want her to be honest! Thus, she tried it. Now the question is this: will she be "punished" for being honest with days of pouting and withdrawal? or will she be "rewarded" for being honest with at least a thanks? See from her side, you SAID to be honest and she was! Now you get to teach her--with your actions--if you meant it or not. Your actions will tell her if she is actually safe being honest, or if honest=punishment therefore avoid it. So I'm not telling what to do or not do...I'm just suggesting that you bear this in mind as you choose what you're going to do in response. 

On the other hand, she CLEARLY is right back to her old tricks of "lead you on by the nose, and then cut you off at the last moment." This is entirely unacceptable in my opinion, whereas you seem to accept it or at least tolerate it and go out of our way to avoid it. Since you are not me, and since your choice is to stay in a marriage where you are not able to sexually express yourself AND since she is not the type to sit down and discuss an issue out loud and resolve it, I would recommend something like thinking about/reflecting on ONE SENTENCE that you could say to her that indicates assertively but briefly what YOU think and feel. 

For example, getting into a discussion is a nil suggestion--but ONE SENTENCE may work okay-ish. You might say "Last night when I put my head on your hip and you said you were uncomfortable, I felt like you were leading me on again like in the old days, I thought I was an idiot for falling for it again, so I wanted to let you know that I am choosing to distance myself emotionally and physically again because I do not want to fall back into our patterns from the past and feel like a fool." 

I see no reason to try to tell her you had hope she was interested...she's not. I see no reason to try to have an actual discussion about it...she won't. I see no reason to hope to resolve this because she'll avoid any tough topic. I say just state what YOU thought and felt, and state why you are doing what you choose to do. So you've said it out loud once and you're done with it. 

Then I'd say go lick your wounds and try to figure out where you went astray and fell into her trap.


----------



## john117

You can do both.

1. Thank her for being honest

2. In turn, be honest yourself and completely withdraw. 

If you're a decent guy you can avoid the warfare part and simply cease communication, or you can take the approach i took in the past and be a bit more colorful about it (not that it worked any better)

In either case I don't think you're going anywhere so it doesn't matter.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Thanks guys.
@badsanta: love you bud. Really like your attitude and enjoy reading your posts. This wasn't about physical comfort. She is not shy about verbally explaining or physically moving my head if I land on the wrong spot. This was about emotional safety for her.
@Livvie, @Affaircare and @john117: spot on. Yes, I generally do thank her for honesty even when it is unplessant. She used to think that was fake but consistency over time has shown her I do want the honesty even when negative.

And no, I no longer pout and try to "punish" her. I didn't like when she used to send me to the doghouse. I don't send her there. I sent several pleasant texts during the day. I spoke warmly when I got home last night.

I am not angry with her. She was being who she is. I am angry with myself. As between Lucy and Charlie Brown, after repeated betrayal I see Charlie Brown as responsible for running toward the football and swinging his leg yet again. Lucy pulling the ball away is just Lucy being Lucy.


----------



## Satya

How dare you caress your wife...


----------



## alexm

Holdingontoit said:


> Last night I came home earlier than usual from work. When she got home from her work she was surprised to see me. I told her I was at work late Monday and would be at work late on Wednesday so I came home early to spend some time with my wife while she was awake. She smiled, changed into her pajamas and got into bed. I brushed my teeth and put on cologne and got into bed next to her. She motioned for me to come closer to her and put my head on her hip. I lay down next to her and put my arm across her belly. Just below the rib cage. I slowly rubbed my fingers along her lowest ribs and the top of her hip.
> 
> She then frowned, pushed me away and said "I am sorry, but you are making me feel very uncomfortable. You told me to be honest with you about how I feel, so I am being honest."
> 
> I am such an idiot. How did I allow her to trick me AGAIN?!? Why did I think that her motioning me to come closer and lay my head on her was anything except a test to see if I was still under her power and control?


I'm not sure how you managed to not tear her a new one in this case. I mean, I get that it's not your personality to do so, but nonetheless.

I also know you know this, but that was some ****ed up crap she pulled right there.

FWIW, I don't get too worked up usually, so I doubt I would have flipped out, either. Instead, it's highly likely I would have given her a pretty dirty look and went "pffft... whatever", then got up and left the room. Maybe turned around and given her a little chuckle.

The reality is, IMO, is that she knows full well that she'll receive what she wants in the marriage from you and the same is not true in reverse.

It also reminds me quite a bit of my ex wife, who although would not pull crap like _this_, would also not be particularly nice to me the majority of the time. Save for occasional glimmers of appreciation, often by telling me she's very lucky to have me, that I'm a great husband and, every few weeks or so, an acknowledgement that she doesn't treat me very well. Then wash, rinse, repeat.

It's like she couldn't help herself. Take advantage, lead me on, pull me around on a leash - but make sure to tell me often how much she appreciates me. Punctuated by moments of clarity when she'd acknowledge she treats me poorly.

I'd fall for it every time. Sadly, I'd probably still be with her had she not met someone else and ****ed off. Genuinely, I'm glad she did.

For people - men and women - it often takes not being with that person any more to realize how ****ed up the whole relationship was. I wouldn't have left her. I. Wouldn't. Have. Left. Her.

Honestly - thank God for the OM, and I mean that. He is directly responsible for me getting my life back. I almost want to send him a thank you card every year on the anniversary of my D-day.


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## turnera

It's good she's being honest. Now you need to be honest, too.


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## Holdingontoit

@turnera: I am honest. I won't leave her. I am staying in large part because I don't want to take the financial hit. She knows this.

Our situation is much like @alexm's with his ex. H2 knows she treats me poorly, apologizes every so often (she apologized after Tuesday night) and then goes right back to treating me the same way.

I am not going to be so brutally honest that she wants to divorce me. I don't value my freedom higher than I value keeping half my income and assets. As I have said many times, I was unhappy and depressed before I got married so divorcing to be alone with myself does not seem appetizing.

The problem is not how she treated me. The problem is that I fell for it again. I am supposed to be smarter than that.


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## Openminded

Yes, you did fall for it and I'm not surprised. As many times as you say you never will again, and you've given all of that up, etc, etc., there is a part of you that continues to have hope. And that hope -- as irrational as it may be -- will get you again and again and again. Maybe you won't fall for it every single time but you will fall for it now and then and that will be enough so that she's well aware that she is the one with the power -- not you. That's unfortunately the price you pay for staying.


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## alexm

Holdingontoit said:


> @turnera: I am honest. I won't leave her. I am staying in large part because I don't want to take the financial hit. She knows this.
> 
> Our situation is much like @alexm's with his ex. H2 knows she treats me poorly, apologizes every so often (she apologized after Tuesday night) and then goes right back to treating me the same way.
> 
> I am not going to be so brutally honest that she wants to divorce me. I don't value my freedom higher than I value keeping half my income and assets. As I have said many times, I was unhappy and depressed before I got married so divorcing to be alone with myself does not seem appetizing.
> 
> The problem is not how she treated me. The problem is that I fell for it again. I am supposed to be smarter than that.


I feel for you - I do.

But. I am still unsure of WHY this is actually better than being on your own? Okay, sure, the financial aspect of it, but holy hell man, it's just money. Really and truly, It's. Just. Money. I find it hard to believe you'd be homeless and/or destitute if you made a go of it on your own.

Not to mention, there IS someone out there for you who would actually make you happy.

Look, you said you were depressed before you got married - fine. I know depression. The likelihood that you'll find true happiness is, to be blunt, slim. Some people are just built that way, going through life with things simply being "okay". I'm probably one of them, TBH. I have times where things are great, or I have something to look forward to, or things just seem to go my way for a while - then back to "okay". Occasionally it goes to "not okay", but I get by.

But - I am telling you this with the deepest sincerity - alone is almost certainly better than your current situation. At least you wouldn't continue to get duped, played with, ****ed over, belittled and minimized. And, you would have a chance, however slim you may think, of finding someone compatible to share your life with.

As I said, I was you. I WAS you. My situation changed because it was forced upon me (again, thank God). My financial situation has never been the same. Oh well.

Secretly, and respectfully of you, I wish your wife would leave you for an OM. It's what woke me up.

It's like the Matrix, man. Keep living the dreary existence you always have, or see what's behind the curtain and choose your own destiny.


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## Holdingontoit

alexm said:


> It's like the Matrix, man. Keep living the dreary existence you always have, or see what's behind the curtain and choose your own destiny.


I will keep living my dreary existence. Sometimes what is behind the curtain is a doorway out. Sometimes it is the monster in the horror flick. I will choose the devil I know.


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## Affaircare

Openminded said:


> Yes, you did fall for it and I'm not surprised. As many times as you say you never will again, and you've given all of that up, etc, etc., there is a part of you that continues to have hope. And that hope -- as irrational as it may be -- will get you again and again and again. Maybe you won't fall for it every single time but you will fall for it now and then and that will be enough so that she's well aware that she is the one with the power -- not you. That's unfortunately the price you pay for staying.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

You made a purposeful choice to stay in a semi-pleasant but UTTER SEX STARVED marriage. You know for a fact that your wife does not (never has, never will) tolerate any physical expression of love other than holding hands, friendly hugs, and non-passionate kisses, and you have your reasons that you choose to stay. Your life. 

BUT that doesn't mean YOU are suddenly now non-sexual/asexual. As long as you live, you will have some portion of you that expresses physically because that is who you are as a person. Now, you do guard yourself and oppress that side of you fairly successfully, but I have no doubt that every now and then it will still arise because that is your make up from within your soul.


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## cma62

For the past 2 days I have read this entire thread.
What did I learn from it.....If a marriage is as dysfunctional , sexless and as manipulative as I have just read about ......get out before you train your brain to think in habitual ways that clearly keep you stuck in perpetual apathy with no motivation or inclination to work towards or find true joy in your marriage or your life.....very sad


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## Holdingontoit

@cma62: yes, you have correctly gleaned the moral of this story. Thank you for confirming that my goal in posting here can be achieved.


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## Holdingontoit

Last night I asked H2 if she would do me a favor. Told her what it was. She said "of course I would do that for you, why would you think I wouldn't?" I laughed. She got upset. I told her I never assume she would do anything for me, so if I want her to do something I ask, rather than making plans based on the assumption she would and then being disappointed if she doesn't. She said that my sarcastic undertone was not loving. I told her not to worry, I am never leaving her. She said she know that, but she wishes I would say it without the tone that makes it sound like I am stuck serving a life sentence. I said "well, aren't I stuck?" She said "yes, you are."

Didn't want anyone to think that I am misleading her about our situation.


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## bilbag

Holdingontoit said:


> Last night I asked H2 if she would do me a favor. Told her what it was. She said "of course I would do that for you, why would you think I wouldn't?" I laughed. She got upset. I told her I never assume she would do anything for me, so if I want her to do something I ask, rather than making plans based on the assumption she would and then being disappointed if she doesn't. She said that my sarcastic undertone was not loving. I told her not to worry, I am never leaving her. She said she know that, but she wishes I would say it without the tone that makes it sound like I am stuck serving a life sentence. I said "well, aren't I stuck?" She said "yes, you are."
> 
> Didn't want anyone to think that I am misleading her about our situation.


I'm thinking that laughing was more merciful to her than openly answering her question. I think humor helps us with dealing with pain as well.


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## Fozzy

Holdingontoit said:


> Last night I asked H2 if she would do me a favor. Told her what it was. She said "of course I would do that for you, why would you think I wouldn't?" I laughed. She got upset. I told her I never assume she would do anything for me, so if I want her to do something I ask, rather than making plans based on the assumption she would and then being disappointed if she doesn't. She said that my sarcastic undertone was not loving. I told her not to worry, I am never leaving her. She said she know that, but she wishes I would say it without the tone that makes it sound like I am stuck serving a life sentence. I said "well, aren't I stuck?" She said "yes, you are."
> 
> Didn't want anyone to think that I am misleading her about our situation.


If you want her to continue to be willing to do favors for you, I don't think mocking sarcasm is a great way to ensure it.


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## Holdingontoit

I agree. I thanked her. I usually do. It was just the tone she used when she asked me "what would make you think you would ask me for a favor and I would say no?" that triggered a laugh. Later, she said something like "well, I guess it is not easy to forget 25 years of relationship history". I told her she is behaving very well and lovingly and I appreciate it. I told her since the kids left home things are going well and I like how we are getting along. All true.


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## Holdingontoit

Amazing how ironic our marriage is. When I was truly head over heels in love with her, and told her so, and acted as if I were, she did not believe my feelings were genuine. She thought I was just pretending to be so infatuated with her, as a ploy to get into her pants. It hurt when she doubted me.

Now, when my feelings for her are more conflicted, she seems thrilled when I act in a loving manner. She thanks me for it. She is more amenable to hugs and kisses. She doesn't turn her head to the side or pull away like she used to.

She doubted when there was nothing to doubt. She believes when there are reasons to suspect I am not entirely sincere. Funny how life works.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> I am such an idiot. I allowed a crack in the wall to show.
> 
> 
> 
> A few days ago H2 and I had a nice afternoon together and in the evening she blew me kisses from across the room. I commented that it was a shame her sensitivity to my taste and smell turned her off to kissing me closer than that. She said something like "why don't you try kissing me more often and see what happens".



Do you think she might be posting on here complaining why her husband won’t get the bloody obvious hints to have sex with her?



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## 269370

On another note, I should have read until the end. How strange.


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## 269370

You do know she is quite sick right? I don’t mean this in a derogatory manner but being a rape victim and all (of which we know little about), she would probably benefit greatly from professional therapy and counselling.i think I may have said it a while back but if you want to steer the relationship in a certain direction, you should encourage her to seek professional help rather than playing those masochistic games. I am afraid you may be too addicted to them by now! The other option is too leave but you are not prepared in which case it’s probably not the worst arrangement. People usually abandon unbearable situations - we do have a survival instinct and no one is forcing us inflict pain on ourselves.


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## Rob_1

I just read this tread. For the life of me; now I know why movies about horrible marriages that look so out of reality are after all sometimes more benign than reality. As I read this guy posts I couldn't help but cringe and felt like crying out: enough get your pathetic life out of misery.
I wonder how a grown man can become such a pathetic spineless wimp with a woman. How can this man look at himself in the mirror every day, and not feel revolted by the image looking back at him. Grow a pair, you're old enough.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Amazing how ironic our marriage is. When I was truly head over heels in love with her, and told her so, and acted as if I were, she did not believe my feelings were genuine. She thought I was just pretending to be so infatuated with her, as a ploy to get into her pants. It hurt when she doubted me.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, when my feelings for her are more conflicted, she seems thrilled when I act in a loving manner. She thanks me for it. She is more amenable to hugs and kisses. She doesn't turn her head to the side or pull away like she used to.
> 
> 
> 
> She doubted when there was nothing to doubt. She believes when there are reasons to suspect I am not entirely sincere. Funny how life works.




This is nothing to do with you: her trauma is evolving. she is probably slowly coming to terms with the fact that intimacy doesn’t immediately ring alarm bells in her head (due to rape association/trauma). Instead of helping a sick person, you make out all these ploys against you on her part. For what purpose?


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## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> This is nothing to do with you: her trauma is evolving. she is probably slowly coming to terms with the fact that intimacy doesn’t immediately ring alarm bells in her head (due to rape association/trauma). Instead of helping a sick person, you make out all these ploys against you on her part. For what purpose?


But this kind of behavior isn't limited to women who have been rape victims.

It seems to apply to many women. 

Once you commit, they ignore you. 

Make them doubt your commitment and they're all over you.


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## 269370

Buddy400 said:


> But this kind of behavior isn't limited to women who have been rape victims.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems to apply to many women.
> 
> 
> 
> Once you commit, they ignore you.
> 
> 
> 
> Make them doubt your commitment and they're all over you.




True. But I’m trying to now stop making generalised posts because it eventually offends someone and target it case by case. His case is pretty obvious to me.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> You do know she is quite sick right? I don’t mean this in a derogatory manner but being a rape victim and all (of which we know little about), she would probably benefit greatly from professional therapy and counselling.i think I may have said it a while back but if you want to steer the relationship in a certain direction, you should encourage her to seek professional help rather than playing those masochistic games.


I agree with you that the rapes are embedded in her aversion to sex. I am no doctor, but seems clear to me she was traumatized and has PTSD toward sex. I have suggested she seek help to deal with the rapes. She insists the rapes have nothing to do with her attitude toward sex.

She first admitted to the rapes about 2 years into MC. In a twisted way I was happy when this secret was revealed. Not happy that it happened to her, of course not, it is terrible, and I wish I could inflict cruel and unusual punishment on the perpetrators for what they did to her and to me. But I was hopeful that a big obstacle that had been hidden was out in the open. I figured she could get help to deal with the rapes and then we could resolve our sexual mismatch. Never happened. We did MC for another 5 years after that. Pointless. To me, the failure of MC after that concession by her shows that the rapes are in fact the root of the problem. But to her the rapes are not something she wants to think about or talk about. Not to me. Not to a therapist. Not to anyone.

If she isn't going to deal with the rapes then we will never resolve the mismatch and there is no point in my trying to have sex with her or address our marital issues. Not throwing more time and energy and money into banging my head against a brick wall. I have enough scars and calluses as it is.


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## Holdingontoit

Rob_1 said:


> As I read this guy posts I couldn't help but cringe and felt like crying out: enough get your pathetic life out of misery.
> I wonder how a grown man can become such a pathetic spineless wimp with a woman. How can this man look at himself in the mirror every day, and not feel revolted by the image looking back at him.


Trust me, I look in the mirror every day and feel revolted. At this point it is not about being old enough to grow a pair, it is about being too old and too set in my ways to make changes. I never had good sex with anyone. I don't imagine I will ever have good sex with anyone. Not willing to pay the price to make that happen. So I will stay with the mother of my children and keep access to 100% of my income and console myself that she is staying with a pathetic spineless wimp. Which means I am not the only one paying a price here.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Last night I asked H2 if she would do me a favor. Told her what it was. She said "of course I would do that for you, why would you think I wouldn't?" I laughed. She got upset. I told her I never assume she would do anything for me, so if I want her to do something I ask, rather than making plans based on the assumption she would and then being disappointed if she doesn't. She said that my sarcastic undertone was not loving. I told her not to worry, I am never leaving her. She said she know that, but she wishes I would say it without the tone that makes it sound like I am stuck serving a life sentence. I said "well, aren't I stuck?" She said "yes, you are."
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't want anyone to think that I am misleading her about our situation.




What was the favour? I hope it was a slow & sensual handjob 



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## john117

Rapes plural? Someone she knew?


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## Holdingontoit

AFAIK, 3 incidents years apart. 3 different perpetrators. All before we met.

I knew she was damaged. I too am damaged. I thought we could help each other heal. I was wrong. I thought I knew why she was damaged. I was wrong. I thought that we were perfect for each other. I was absolutely correct. Perfectly designed to drive each other even more crazy.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> AFAIK, 3 incidents years apart. 3 different perpetrators. All before we met.
> 
> 
> 
> I knew she was damaged. I too am damaged. I thought we could help each other heal. I was wrong. I thought I knew why she was damaged. I was wrong. I thought that we were perfect for each other. I was absolutely correct. Perfectly designed to drive each other even more crazy.




Three separate instances of rape? Are you for real? Is this in the US?
And it was definitely all rape? (Not some insane ex boyfriends who got fed up waiting. Which is still rape of course.)
Either way, you should have been more insistent on finding another marriage counsellor to get her to deal with those issues.
This is a serious matter.



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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Three separate instances of rape? Are you for real? Is this in the US?


Yes, all rapes and all in the US. Have you not been watching the news? Have you not seen all the stories about Harvey Weinstein? Rape happens disgustingly frequently in the US. My wife volunteered at the local rape crisis center. Can't tell you how often she got called to go to the hospital to comfort a victim on Christmas or Easter (only non-Christian on staff so she agreed to be on call for all the major Christian holidays).

I can't force her to deal with this. She has to want to do it for herself. Otherwise it is unlikely to accomplish anything.
I can say "seek help or I'll leave" but that only "works" if I am willing to leave over her refusal to go. Which I am not willing to do.
Plus, I am very worried about letting this genie out of the bottle. I am terrible at sex. If she overcomes her trauma and learns to enjoy sex, just as likely she'll dump me for someone who actually floats her boat. Just because this situation is awful does not mean that something else might not be worse.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, all rapes and all in the US. Have you not been watching the news? Have you not seen all the stories about Harvey Weinstein? Rape happens disgustingly frequently in the US. My wife volunteered at the local rape crisis center. Can't tell you how often she got called to go to the hospital to comfort a victim on Christmas or Easter (only non-Christian on staff so she agreed to be on call for all the major Christian holidays.
> 
> 
> 
> I can't force her to deal with this. She has to want to do it for herself. Otherwise it is unlikely to accomplish anything.
> 
> I can say "seek help or I'll leave" but that only "works" if I am willing to leave over her refusal to go.


Not necessarily. Bluffing sometimes works just as well!! At least you will know how much she truly cares and where you stand.
You don’t even need to threaten: you are in fact trying to help her by steering her to find a good councillor (cheaper than divorce or brothels, if you are going to be focusing on income) - to have some resemblance of a normal relationship in your mature adulthood.




Holdingontoit said:


> Plus, I am very worried about letting this genie out of the bottle. I am terrible at sex. If she overcomes her trauma and learns to enjoy sex, just as likely she'll dump me for someone who actually floats her boat. Just because this situation is awful does not mean that something else might not be worse.



Aha - but you should have started the thread with this! Fair enough if you prefer to bath in misery and write pretty stories about it. But it’s not immediately obvious so some people might be mistaken that you are actually looking for help as to how to save whatever is salvageable from your situation. And you can still salvage it if you wanted to.



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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Plus, I am very worried about letting this genie out of the bottle. I am terrible at sex. If she overcomes her trauma and learns to enjoy sex, just as likely she'll dump me for someone who actually floats her boat. Just because this situation is awful does not mean that something else might not be worse.
> 
> 
> 
> Aha - but you should have started the thread with this! Fair enough if you prefer to bath in misery and write pretty stories about it. But it’s not immediately obvious so some people might be mistaken that you are actually looking for help as to how to save whatever is salvageable from your situation. And you can still salvage it if you wanted to.
Click to expand...

Actually, I DID start the thread with that thought. From the very first post on this thread:

_For the record, I am not looking to resolve my personal or marital problems. I have invested almost 20,000 posts on various marriage forums over the past 13+ years. I have tried everything I am interested in trying. At this point have given up hope of making major changes and am pursuing a different path and a different payoff._


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## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> AFAIK, 3 incidents years apart. 3 different perpetrators. All before we met.
> 
> I knew she was damaged. I too am damaged. I thought we could help each other heal. I was wrong. I thought I knew why she was damaged. I was wrong. I thought that we were perfect for each other. I was absolutely correct. Perfectly designed to drive each other even more crazy.


Unless she grew up in a warzone it's difficult to see it happening 3 times to the same individual. Especially an older one.


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## brooklynAnn

john117 said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> 
> AFAIK, 3 incidents years apart. 3 different perpetrators. All before we met.
> 
> I knew she was damaged. I too am damaged. I thought we could help each other heal. I was wrong. I thought I knew why she was damaged. I was wrong. I thought that we were perfect for each other. I was absolutely correct. Perfectly designed to drive each other even more crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless she grew up in a warzone it's difficult to see it happening 3 times to the same individual. Especially an older one.
Click to expand...

MAYBE in her younger years by someone close ...who could have been a family member, friend, or someone with more power.


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## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> Amazing how ironic our marriage is. When I was truly head over heels in love with her, and told her so, and acted as if I were, she did not believe my feelings were genuine. She thought I was just pretending to be so infatuated with her, as a ploy to get into her pants. It hurt when she doubted me.
> 
> Now, when my feelings for her are more conflicted, she seems thrilled when I act in a loving manner. She thanks me for it. She is more amenable to hugs and kisses. She doesn't turn her head to the side or pull away like she used to.
> 
> She doubted when there was nothing to doubt. She believes when there are reasons to suspect I am not entirely sincere. Funny how life works.


Does understanding the mechanisms involved interest you at all? If not for the sake of the marriage or your contentment in life, then for the sake of woman traumatized by rape you live with, or simply out of intellectual curiosity?

I don’t pretend to know the mechanisms, but it’s not the first time I’ve heard of something like this: no-worries-about-partner’s-commitment-etc ——> projections-onto-partner-and-devaluing-and-taking-for-granted-and-withholding. Been living it myself.

I’d like to understand it and similar behaviors. I’ve been doing some reading that feels like it’ll eventually lead to some enlightenment.


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## Holdingontoit

PieceOfSky said:


> Does understanding the mechanisms involved interest you at all? If not for the sake of the marriage or your contentment in life, then for the sake of woman traumatized by rape you live with, or simply out of intellectual curiosity?


I have done much reading on the impact of rape and theories of how to work toward recovery. Remember, when I first found out about the rapes during MC (only a little, I still have very few details), I thought that was the "answer" to our problem. It all made sense. She fit the description of an unrecovered victim. It seemed clear that if she got help, we could explore our sexuality together and build a sex life that worked for both of us. Five years of me reading about rape and PTSD and recovery, and her refusing to discuss any of it during MC or her IC, and her refusing to treat the rapes as a factor in our sexlessness, left me even more hopeless.

I said it was ironic and funny (in a sad way). I didn't say it wasn't common or expected in our situation. Knowing WHY it works this way doesn't help us resolve the issue. She has to accept that she was injured and the wound hasn't healed and she needs professional help to recover. She needs to want to get the help, want to do the work, and want to heal. She has to want to have a sex life that she enjoys. Whether with me or someone else.

I am not convinced she wants any of those things. That is OK. I am damaged too. And I refuse to get help. So I can't ask her to work on her issues. After all, I am not working on mine either.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Actually, I DID start the thread with that thought. From the very first post on this thread:
> 
> _For the record, I am not looking to resolve my personal or marital problems. I have invested almost 20,000 posts on various marriage forums over the past 13+ years. I have tried everything I am interested in trying. At this point have given up hope of making major changes and am pursuing a different path and a different payoff._


I guess I didn't think you meant it.
Something doesn't seem quite right regarding 'pursuing a payoff' at the expense of a sick person/rape victim.
Btw I apologise if i sounded harsh or direct...it was supposed to be 'motivational tone'.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> I have done much reading on the impact of rape and theories of how to work toward recovery. Remember, when I first found out about the rapes during MC (only a little, I still have very few details), I thought that was the "answer" to our problem. It all made sense. She fit the description of an unrecovered victim. *It seemed clear that if she got help, we could explore our sexuality together and build a sex life that worked for both of us.*


Hold on..I think you jumped a couple of steps right there. 'Exploring sexuality together' after getting help is like doing crunches after a Caesarean. A bit premature. It takes so much time to heal (may not even be possible to heal completely).
Why not try other therapists? The ones that specialise in rape victims. 
You know what your wife needs.
Urrgh. Sorry, I forgot. I didn't mean to try and help.


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## john117

The amateur therapist in me wonders whether she feels "responsible" for what happened to her (in a shoulda coulda woulda way) and walls up into her little secret garden free from reality.

My first real love was a CSA victim, and it so happens I got the story - lack of HIPPA and an understanding aunt - and it was pretty bad. She told me the story eventually. She moved to the UK for grad school, never dated anyone, never married. 

It's not something I would wish on anyone.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Hold on..I think you jumped a couple of steps right there. 'Exploring sexuality together' after getting help is like doing crunches after a Caesarean. A bit premature. It takes so much time to heal (may not even be possible to heal completely).
> Why not try other therapists? The ones that specialise in rape victims.
> You know what your wife needs.


My post was perhaps unclear as to temporal sequencing.
First, she gets help from a therapist trained to deal with rape victims.
H2 learns to deal with the trauma and the PTSD and reconnects to her sexuality.
Only after she completes all of that work, and only if she is then interested in connecting with me, do we work on exploring our sexuality together.
It might be that she never does the work or never succeeds in connecting to her sexuality.
It might be that she reconnects to her sexuality and then has no interest in being sexual with me.
It might be that we try an fail to create something mutually satisfactory.
I had NO intention of doing the "us" work until she completed the "me" work.
But she has steadfastly expressed opposition to doing the "me" work. She maintains there is no "me" work to be done.
As long as that remains true, there is no "we" work to be done, either. Which is why we no longer have sex. 
Took me a long, lonely, begrudging time to get here. Which is why, if she ever decides to do the "me" work. I still might refuse to do the "we" work.
Sometimes, after you turn the valve to the "off" position. It rusts and corrodes. And later when you try to turn the valve back to "open". It doesn't move. It stays stuck on closed. I fear that is where I am.


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## Holdingontoit

john117 said:


> The amateur therapist in me wonders whether she feels "responsible" for what happened to her (in a shoulda coulda woulda way) and walls up into her little secret garden free from reality.


I am the one who feels "responsible" for our marriage. I think I should have divorced her during the first year in a shoulda coulda woulda kind of way.
I do not think she feels responsible for having been raped. Nothing she could have done, having accepted a date on Friday night, to prevent the guy from driving her into a secluded spot and raping her. I don't think she believes she should have unlocked the door of a moving car and jumped out in the middle of nowhere.



> It's not something I would wish on anyone.


Agreed. I think men who do that should have their testicles amputated and forced fed to them raw. Lucky for rapists, I am not in charge of the world.


----------



## Openminded

Date rape is a shock to say the least. I very rarely examine mine. It's locked away. 

She doesn't want her sexuality back. Obviously.


----------



## farsidejunky

Holdingontoit said:


> Amazing how ironic our marriage is. When I was truly head over heels in love with her, and told her so, and acted as if I were, she did not believe my feelings were genuine. She thought I was just pretending to be so infatuated with her, as a ploy to get into her pants. It hurt when she doubted me.
> 
> Now, when my feelings for her are more conflicted, she seems thrilled when I act in a loving manner. She thanks me for it. She is more amenable to hugs and kisses. She doesn't turn her head to the side or pull away like she used to.
> 
> She doubted when there was nothing to doubt. She believes when there are reasons to suspect I am not entirely sincere. Funny how life works.


Because subconsciously that is what she believes she deserves. Of course she seems happier that way.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Moving this to my thread so as not to threadjack further.



inmyprime said:


> Your assumption (and that of many men in a similar situation) is that you assume that her needs are being met. ‘As far as I can tell she’s happy’. This phrasing tells me that you can’t be bothered to find out.
> You also refuse to tell her that you are unhappy.
> And you are supposed to share and work through marital issues together, not sweep it under the carpet.


I ask her all the time, and she says she is thrilled to be married to me. She is more complimentary and affectionate than early in our marriage. We did 8 years of MC and she was not shy about saying what she wanted from me. She gets just about all of it except my income is mid 6 figures and she wishes it was mid 7 figures but hey she got to be SAHM for 20 years while the kids were home and a car and a decent house in a nice suburb with good schools and some vacations so even she isn't suggesting that I failed to be a decent provider.

As she tells it, the only fly in the ointment was that I kept pestering her for sex. Now that we don't have sex, she says she is happy and she acts as if she is happy. Maybe she is playing me but I am hard pressed to understand why she would do that. We know why I do it - I don't want to have to live on half my income. I can't think of any reason why she would hide her unhappiness. If I didn't leave after she spent all my savings and ran up huge credit card debts and refused to have sex with me, what consequence would she feel about sharing with me that she is unhappy? Trust me, when she IS unhappy, she lets me know!



inmyprime said:


> If something significant happened in your partner’s life, it doesn’t have to be something tragic, just something powerful enough that affected them enough, not to have sexual thoughts in the foreground of their minds whenever the partner feels like it.


I never said the lower drive person had to have something tragic or powerful happen to stop having sex. It could be any tiny little thing that drops their happiness from 100% to 99% and then sex drops off the list. No one stays at 100% pleased forever.



> @Holdingontoit perhaps you did try everything there is to try and I’m bing unfair to you. I’m trying to motivate to not give up (something you may not need at all at this stage). It might come across as terribly dismissive after re-reading it.


I doubt I tried "everything" but we did MC and St for 8 years with several different counsellors and therapists. I worked out to get into better shape. Ran half a marathon. Doubled my income. Read NMMNG and stopped saying "yes" to everything. Did a 180. Started going out to happy hour with a buddy of mine. Figured out H2's Love Languages and started paying more attention to Acts of Service. Nothing made any difference.

So maybe I did not try "everything". But I tried enough that I am opposed to trying anything more. The effort to become an even better partner just makes the nightly rejection more painful. I am done trying. So yes, it is "groundhog day" every day. Funny, you would think my now that I would be a better piano player.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Weird Sunday. I am considering a job move and it would require huge effort and focus on my part. Change of location. Move to a more expensive location so living apart and then downsizing our home unless I really strike it big. But I have always felt I underachieved and this may be my last chance to go for the big time. Getting too old and tired to start over and build a new life again. She is conflicted because she knows that part of my disappointment with my life is that we never had a sex life. She feels that part of my desire to take a big risk is her fault. She feels guilty that she can't provide me with a sex life. Which I guess is a good thing.

Anyway, after lunch Sunday she made a big deal that she wants to have a kiss and makeout session. She gets naked. I massage her and we kiss. I move to go down on her and she gets up to freshen up. Then she comes back to bed and I go down on her. I stopped when it becomes clear that nothing I do has any impact on her. I asked her to make sure and she admitted it does nothing for her and she doesn't know of anything I can do that would. So I rolled over next to her. She seemed disappointed. What, she thought we were going to have intercourse? I told her no PIV until she comes first. She thought I wasn't serious?

Apparently she figured if she got naked and let me go down on her, then I would lose my willpower and have PIV with her. Hah, shows what she knows. I am far too devoted to self-flagellation. I enjoy playing the martyr far more than I would enjoy any orgasm from her lying there and letting me use her as a masturbatory aid.

If she offers again, I am thinking I should say "no thanks". Not that I expect her to offer again anytime soon. Has to hurt when your husband turns away from your privates. Man this is so messed up. I wonder which of us is more tortured by all this? In the end, we belong together to save the world from having to deal with either of us separately.

I did compliment her breasts (and the surgeon's skill). Hardly any scar. Just a thin white line. Pretty amazing to make an incision that long and remove so much tissue and not have an angry red scar. I mean, I compliment her all the time when she is naked. But I am normally not that close to her when she is naked. She is across the room getting dressed or undressed. By the time we get close she has her PJs on, and it has been a while since we were close together and naked. The scar has mostly disappeared since the last time.


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## chillymorn69

Have you tried using a vib on her?

Or giving oral for extended periods of time like 40mins or so the use the vib on her ?


Or maybe accept that shes nonorgasmic and enjoy her body .you don't have to think of it as a masterbation aid you could think of it as a loving gesture or that she enjoys you getting pleasure even if she don't orgasm.


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## kag123

I guess I don't understand...

She offered herself to you and she pursued the contact. It might not necessarily be her fault she can't orgasm or derive pornography-style pleasure from sexual activities. What I think she wanted was for you to enjoy her body. Sometimes being part of the act, watching your partner fully enjoying you, brings pleasure in itself. 

I think, given your history, the fact that she pursued this activity at all is telling of her love for you. She let herself be vulnerable in front of you. It sounds like you don't see that often from her. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Affaircare

You know one thing that tickles me, @Holdingontoit? How long have we known each other now--15 years or so right? After watching this play out over 15 years, and seeing you do everything I can think of, and watching her avoid everything I can think of, and watching the two of you go to every kind of counseling I know of and spinning your wheels...it tickles me that you do plainly say to people "I have tried for decades to have a regular, intimate sex life with my wife and she will not have it, so after decades of rejection and decades of my own non-existent self-esteem and self-loathing, I've decided to accept a life of celibacy"... and yet people will try to motivate you to keep trying and suggest trying X or Y. 

I don't mean to sound mean or angry or condescending to those who suggest--after all, I suspect you're trying to help a guy out! But here's what I hear: you get to live your life--not us. You weighed in the balances the cost of staying as you are or doing something else (such as getting divorced or finding sex outside the marriage), and after considering the costs of each...and the benefits of each, you made the conscious decision that you were okay with staying as you are (cost=no sex) for keeping your kids, your house, your job, and all all the rest (benefit=keeping your family and assets "as is"). Yet somehow, maybe it's a U.S. thing, boy howdy people just can not accept that decision! Apparently as a male human being you HAVE TO choose to pursue sex even if the cost of it is losing everything. 

As near as I can tell, you do miss the sex life you never had, but not so much so that you're willing to change anything. I suspect it would be like me wishing I was tall and willowy but I'm just not and never will be! Oh well--let's work on accepting who we are WHERE WE ARE. Your wife was raped several times and it clearly left a cavernous scar but she refuses (and refuses and refuses) to look at that wound, and has for decades, and no amount of anything for you or any of us will "make her" look at it. It is what it is. And just as clearly, you have little or no confidence in yourself or desire to do the work necessary to gain self-worth. Okay...it is what it is. So there the two of you are: nice family, kids in good schools, you have a nice job, fairly well-to-do neighborhood in a pretty swanky city, good cars, vacations, and you and the Mrs. get along pretty good all the time unless one of you brings up sex. She'll even "close her eyes and pretend she's not there so you can use her as a sex doll" on the very rare occasion when she thinks she has to in order to get something she wants...but since that isn't what you want, you prefer not to even take her up on her sex doll offer. Again...YOUR CHOICE. 

I just don't see why people can't accept that you have chosen this life. Hey it may not be what *I* would choose, but I'm not you! You're not me! We can choose different stuff! This isn't just a "well if only someone suggested this 15 years ago" thing....it is a deliberate, conscious decision. I personally feel sad that your wife won't grow and you feel depressed about who you are...but that's where you're at! 

Now...having said all that, I do actually have one question for ya about this weekend. If you have truly chosen to just be asexual with MrsHold, when she offered "going down on her" why did you go for it? I mean...why not just say "no thank you"? I could see giving it a try every chance you get, but then it's not really accepting asexuality either. So I do see a bit of inconsistency there and I'm wondering what your thought pattern was at the time. Also...UGH  nothing more sexy than someone getting naked and acting like "Just get it over with." [/sarcasm]


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## john117

The operative term is "too little, too late".


----------



## kag123

I think I see her actions as vulnerable because it seems that she felt frightened by you potentially leaving (getting a job far away that would require more time apart). Perhaps she feels that your complacency makes her "safe", as in you won't leave her...but she does not feel secure that you really love her. In her head she could be thinking the distance would be enough to open your eyes and ignite the desire to end the marriage. Like the only reason you are still there is because you don't realize yet that there are a thousand better places you could be. She knows she's been inadequate for you and I am sure she feels guilt over that. Her offering herself to you seems like an attempt to connect and see if you are still there, pining for her. Your reaction was probably a big slap in the face to her- not that she didn't deserve it. 

I'm with Affaircare in that I'm just a bit confused about why you'd engage her at all, why not just stop it before it even began? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## chillymorn69

Affaircare said:


> You know one thing that tickles me, @Holdingontoit? How long have we known each other now--15 years or so right? After watching this play out over 15 years, and seeing you do everything I can think of, and watching her avoid everything I can think of, and watching the two of you go to every kind of counseling I know of and spinning your wheels...it tickles me that you do plainly say to people "I have tried for decades to have a regular, intimate sex life with my wife and she will not have it, so after decades of rejection and decades of my own non-existent self-esteem and self-loathing, I've decided to accept a life of celibacy"... and yet people will try to motivate you to keep trying and suggest trying X or Y.
> 
> I don't mean to sound mean or angry or condescending to those who suggest--after all, I suspect you're trying to help a guy out! But here's what I hear: you get to live your life--not us. You weighed in the balances the cost of staying as you are or doing something else (such as getting divorced or finding sex outside the marriage), and after considering the costs of each...and the benefits of each, you made the conscious decision that you were okay with staying as you are (cost=no sex) for keeping your kids, your house, your job, and all all the rest (benefit=keeping your family and assets "as is"). Yet somehow, maybe it's a U.S. thing, boy howdy people just can not accept that decision! Apparently as a male human being you HAVE TO choose to pursue sex even if the cost of it is losing everything.
> 
> As near as I can tell, you do miss the sex life you never had, but not so much so that you're willing to change anything. I suspect it would be like me wishing I was tall and willowy but I'm just not and never will be! Oh well--let's work on accepting who we are WHERE WE ARE. Your wife was raped several times and it clearly left a cavernous scar but she refuses (and refuses and refuses) to look at that wound, and has for decades, and no amount of anything for you or any of us will "make her" look at it. It is what it is. And just as clearly, you have little or no confidence in yourself or desire to do the work necessary to gain self-worth. Okay...it is what it is. So there the two of you are: nice family, kids in good schools, you have a nice job, fairly well-to-do neighborhood in a pretty swanky city, good cars, vacations, and you and the Mrs. get along pretty good all the time unless one of you brings up sex. She'll even "close her eyes and pretend she's not there so you can use her as a sex doll" on the very rare occasion when she thinks she has to in order to get something she wants...but since that isn't what you want, you prefer not to even take her up on her sex doll offer. Again...YOUR CHOICE.
> 
> I just don't see why people can't accept that you have chosen this life. Hey it may not be what *I* would choose, but I'm not you! You're not me! We can choose different stuff! This isn't just a "well if only someone suggested this 15 years ago" thing....it is a deliberate, conscious decision. I personally feel sad that your wife won't grow and you feel depressed about who you are...but that's where you're at!
> 
> Now...having said all that, I do actually have one question for ya about this weekend. If you have truly chosen to just be asexual with MrsHold, when she offered "going down on her" why did you go for it? I mean...why not just say "no thank you"? I could see giving it a try every chance you get, but then it's not really accepting asexuality either. So I do see a bit of inconsistency there and I'm wondering what your thought pattern was at the time. Also...UGH  nothing more sexy than someone getting naked and acting like "Just get it over with." [/sarcasm]


While I kind of agree with your post it begs the question of why even start this thread if he has chosen to just accept his marriage the way it is.

Hope springs eternal I guess.


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## Affaircare

chillymorn69 said:


> While I kind of agree with your post it begs the question of why even start this thread if he has chosen to just accept his marriage the way it is.
> 
> Hope springs eternal I guess.


Actually just read his first post: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/12857473-post1.html

Why start this thread? "This thread is intended to provide the backstory to those of you who do not know me form other forums so you will understand my background and perspective when I post on other threads."

I think it's kind of convenient here on TAM to have one thread where you can say "Here is my story" rather than repeating it over and over again. Hence...starting this thread. 

Actually, that's a good idea, @Holdingontoit ... I may copy it!


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## chillymorn69

Affaircare said:


> Actually just read his first post: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/12857473-post1.html
> 
> Why start this thread? "This thread is intended to provide the backstory to those of you who do not know me form other forums so you will understand my background and perspective when I post on other threads."
> 
> I think it's kind of convenient here on TAM to have one thread where you can say "Here is my story" rather than repeating it over and over again. Hence...starting this thread.
> 
> Actually, that's a good idea, @Holdingontoit ... I may copy it!


Hmm,

Yes and no.

That might have been his thought process when he first posted this thread but he still seems to be trying. Or he wouldn't have given her oral in the first place.

Thus my statement "hope spring eternal"


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## john117

If I might employ another parable... One of the best books I've ever read, and a book I give each of my new hires, is Tracy Kidder's "Soul of a New Machine". One of the product managers says, it's like pinball. You play well, you get to play the next game. 

No matter how well you play it makes little difference if you don't get to play again.

In the context of low-sex or no-sex marriages, a single offer of lousy sex (practice makes perfect) doesn't do anything. It merely acknowledges the issue without any mitigation.

I think H should simply have rolled his eyes and patted her on the head and told her with a straight face, "too little too late, but thanks for screwing up 30 years of your life and mine".


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## Holdingontoit

But @john117, that is not something you say to someone you expect to spend the rest of your life with.

That is what you say after you have decided you are leaving. If you are staying and want the interaction to be surface pleasant, you simply can't say that.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Weird Sunday. I am considering a job move and it would require huge effort and focus on my part. Change of location. Move to a more expensive location so living apart and then downsizing our home unless I really strike it big. But I have always felt I underachieved and this may be my last chance to go for the big time. Getting too old and tired to start over and build a new life again. She is conflicted because she knows that part of my disappointment with my life is that we never had a sex life. She feels that part of my desire to take a big risk is her fault. She feels guilty that she can't provide me with a sex life. Which I guess is a good thing.
> 
> Anyway, after lunch Sunday she made a big deal that she wants to have a kiss and makeout session. She gets naked. I massage her and we kiss. I move to go down on her and she gets up to freshen up. Then she comes back to bed and I go down on her. I stopped when it becomes clear that nothing I do has any impact on her. I asked her to make sure and she admitted it does nothing for her and she doesn't know of anything I can do that would. *So I rolled over next to her. She seemed disappointed. What, she thought we were going to have intercourse? I told her no PIV until she comes first. She thought I wasn't serious?*
> 
> Apparently she figured if she got naked and let me go down on her, then I would lose my willpower and have PIV with her. Hah, shows what she knows. I am far too devoted to self-flagellation. I enjoy playing the martyr far more than I would enjoy any orgasm from her lying there and letting me use her as a masturbatory aid.
> 
> *If she offers again, I am thinking I should say "no thanks". Not that I expect her to offer again anytime soon. Has to hurt when your husband turns away from your privates.* Man this is so messed up. I wonder which of us is more tortured by all this? In the end, we belong together to save the world from having to deal with either of us separately.
> 
> I did compliment her breasts (and the surgeon's skill). Hardly any scar. Just a thin white line. Pretty amazing to make an incision that long and remove so much tissue and not have an angry red scar. I mean, I compliment her all the time when she is naked. But I am normally not that close to her when she is naked. She is across the room getting dressed or undressed. By the time we get close she has her PJs on, and it has been a while since we were close together and naked. The scar has mostly disappeared since the last time.


Sorry, but to say that I am completely flabbergasted by this post must be an understatement of the century: can I just clarify: a woman who has a history of severe sexual trauma was happy to have intercourse with you, offered herself but you denied because she was unable to climax first? 
I enjoy very much your posts but if I was sitting in the same room with you, i would come over and (gently) smack you :wink2:
What on earth were you thinking??????????

You do know how important this moment was for someone like her? That just being affectionate with her (cuddling, compliments, kissing, hugging, going down on her without requiring her to orgasm etc) may be MORE than enough for her to experience intimacy and feel close to a *normal human being* with you! You literally are killing the golden goose! Why?
I know why:



Holdingontoit said:


> Apparently she figured if she got naked and let me go down on her, then I would lose my willpower and have PIV with her. Hah, shows what she knows. I am far too devoted to self-flagellation.


I long suspected this might be your thing :wink2:

But *please* be careful not to hurt her in the process. Are you too worried that your sex life might become too normal and too abundant and might mess up your plans for revenge?? :smthumbup: :wink2:
I love the fact that you approach it with humour and don't take yourself too seriously. Keep it up!


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## 269370

Affaircare said:


> You know one thing that tickles me, @Holdingontoit? How long have we known each other now--15 years or so right? After watching this play out over 15 years, and seeing you do everything I can think of, and watching her avoid everything I can think of, and watching the two of you go to every kind of counseling I know of and spinning your wheels...it tickles me that you do plainly say to people "I have tried for decades to have a regular, intimate sex life with my wife and she will not have it, so after decades of rejection and decades of my own non-existent self-esteem and self-loathing, I've decided to accept a life of celibacy"... and yet people will try to motivate you to keep trying and suggest trying X or Y.


He doesn't need to try anything. He just needs to accept the reality that his wife loves and trusts him enough to offer intimacy and that not being able to orgasm on the word 'go' is not supposed to be some kind of ploy to hurt him and sabotage the marriage :smile2:
Men do crack me up sometimes (from a man)


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## 269370

chillymorn69 said:


> Hmm,
> 
> Yes and no.
> 
> That might have been his thought process when he first posted this thread but he still seems to be trying. Or he wouldn't have given her oral in the first place.
> 
> Thus my statement "hope spring eternal"


I hope you (Holdingontoit) don't mind me saying this but I think you enjoy failing  The fact that you might be failing at failing (and therefore: succeeding) is scary and confusing :smthumbup:
I am happy for you but next time, just accept her gesture for what it was intended to be: willingness to share intimacy with you. It's a BIG step for her. Don't shut it down.
Otherwise, you might be fighting a battle with no enemies in sight.


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## 269370

john117 said:


> I think H should simply have rolled his eyes and patted her on the head and told her with a straight face, "too little too late, but thanks for screwing up 30 years of your life and mine".


Seriously?  Do many guys think that the requirement for the woman to climax is the only way to proclaim eternal love? I am learning something new every day here!
I guess it's not new: men come from mars and women....from many different planets that apparently haven't been discovered yet. :smile2:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> Seriously?  Do many guys think that the requirement for the woman to climax is the *only *way to proclaim eternal love?


No, they don't.

But it's not unreasonable for a man to desire such a response. It's not out of line to expect, at least occasionally, a result for effort. 

But most importantly, it's not unwarranted for a man to think *his wife should, of her own accord, want to have orgasms with her husband*. 

Bottom line: orgasms are a part of intimacy. If you withhold this, the level of intimacy is short of what it should be. It's a truly _horrible_ thing to do to your partner.


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## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> But @john117, that is not something you say to someone you expect to spend the rest of your life with.
> 
> That is what you say after you have decided you are leaving. If you are staying and want the interaction to be surface pleasant, you simply can't say that.


Au contraire, you say exactly that regardless. If that spoils the "relationship" so be it.


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## john117

inmyprime said:


> Seriously?  Do many guys think that the requirement for the woman to climax is the only way to proclaim eternal love? I am learning something new every day here!
> I guess it's not new: men come from mars and women....from many different planets that apparently haven't been discovered yet. :smile2:


O has nothing to do with what I'm suggesting. She's offering a one night stand. Great if you're in college and unmarried, toxic if you're married.


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## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> No, they don't.
> 
> 
> 
> But it's not unreasonable for a man to desire such a response. It's not out of line to expect, at least occasionally, a result for effort.
> 
> 
> 
> But most importantly, it's not unwarranted for a man to think *his wife should, of her own accord, want to have orgasms with her husband*.
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line: orgasms are a part of intimacy. If you withhold this, the level of intimacy is short of what it should be. It's a truly _horrible_ thing to do to your partner.




‘Withhold’ is a strange way to call lack of someone’s ability to orgasm. 
I think to go from no intimacy whatsoever to ‘clothes off & ready for intercourse’ is a huge step in my view, given the context here.
Also, who knows, she might have orgasmed from PIV even if she couldn’t from oral. Not all women orgasm from the same things!
Denying her the chance is what I think is a bit strange...But I rarely get surprised anymore around here 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

john117 said:


> O has nothing to do with what I'm suggesting. She's offering a one night stand. Great if you're in college and unmarried, toxic if you're married.




In what sense was she offering an ONS? It seems an oxymoron because they are married...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> ‘Withhold’ is a strange way to call lack of someone’s ability to orgasm.
> I think to go from no intimacy whatsoever to ‘clothes off & ready for intercourse’ is a huge step in my view, given the context here.
> Also, who knows, she might have orgasmed from PIV even if she couldn’t from oral. Not all women orgasm from the same things!
> Denying her the chance is what I think is a bit strange...But I rarely get surprised anymore around here
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But it wasn't always sexless here. There was some in the early days (before the marriage). While OP hasn't said, my guess is that, given OP claims bait and switch on her part, that she was just putting out and not truly sharing. She did what she needed to do to get the ring. 

Denying her "the chance?" Is she looking for a chance or is she just looking to hang on to what she's got now that she's older and perceives her options limited and fears facing her declining years alone? Given her past modus operandi, I'd lean toward the latter. Older wives can get rather clingy and suddenly become willing to do things they haven't in the past. I'd venture to say fear is driving this change more than any spontaneous outpouring of good will. 

And the idea of being concerned about "denying her the chance" is a bit misplaced given she has denied him the chance of a fulfilling partnership for decades.


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: This is exactly what I am exploring with my current job search. Do I want to fail? Do I prefer failing? Will I refuse to take a chance at success because success is not how I see myself? Very deep and meaningful questions. I wish I had clear answers. Even a clear "no" would be helpful.

Thank you for your posts today. I am struggling to decide whether I intend to hurt my wife or even enjoy hurting her. That is not the type of person I wish to be. But hurting her does not bother me to the extent that it did earlier in our marriage. I know she has endured terrible pain. Mostly not at my hands but still terrible. We both are paying the price for what was done to her.

I try not to punish her for being who she is. But I do resent that she did not share the truth with me before we got married. I feel this entitles me to not share the complete truth with her today. Not admirable but perhaps understandable. She has made it clear she wished to be married to me. Whether that was good for me or not. It is what she wanted. Those are now the ground rules for our marriage. Not what I would have chosen originally but I am not going to be the doormat who lets her walk all over me while I wash the mud off her boots.

I take very seriously the advice not to reject her advances in a cruel manner. She offered herself to me. That is a very intimate and loving gesture. I can be tender in return even if I do not accept her offer. I will do my best to cherish her. Even if I do not feel comfortable with letting her sacrifice herself to me. I have seen the look on her face. I cannot allow her to do that to herself even if she is willing to do it for me. That is not loving on my part (even if some of those who have never seen her face during lovemaking think that it might be gracious of me to accept her offer). If she chooses not to face her demons and overcome them, I am not going to unleash them on her and force her to ignore their presence.


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## Holdingontoit

john117 said:


> Au contraire, you say exactly that regardless. If that spoils the "relationship" so be it.


But that is an important point. I am NOT interested in "spoiling" the relationship. I am not neutral as to that outcome. I am actively opposed to that outcome.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: This is exactly what I am exploring with my current job search. Do I want to fail? Do I prefer failing? Will I refuse to take a chance at success because success is not how I see myself? Very deep and meaningful questions. I wish I had clear answers. Even a clear "no" would be helpful.
> 
> Thank you for your posts today. I am struggling to decide whether I intend to hurt my wife or even enjoy hurting her. That is not the type of person I wish to be. But hurting her does not bother me to the extent that it did earlier in our marriage. I know she has endured terrible pain. Mostly not at my hands but still terrible. We both are paying the price for what was done to her.
> 
> I try not to punish her for being who she is. But I do resent that she did not share the truth with me before we got married. I feel this entitles me to not share the complete truth with her today. Not admirable but perhaps understandable. She has made it clear she wished to be married to me. Whether that was good for me or not. It is what she wanted. Those are now the ground rules for our marriage. Not what I would have chosen originally but I am not going to be the doormat who lets her walk all over me while I wash the mud off her boots.
> 
> I take very seriously the advice not to reject her advances in a cruel manner. She offered herself to me. That is a very intimate and loving gesture. I can be tender in return even if I do not accept her offer. I will do my best to cherish her. Even if I do not feel comfortable with letting her sacrifice herself to me. I have seen the look on her face. I cannot allow her to do that to herself even if she is willing to do it for me. That is not loving. If she chooses not to face her demons and overcome them, I am not going to unleash them on her and force her to ignore their presence.


:smile2: I think you are first and foremost trying to find creative ways to hurt yourself with the conspiracy theories...I get the feeling she knows you and your quirks well enough by now to accept you for who you are. Now it's your turn to see if you can offer her the same courtesy!
Sorry to disappoint but I get the sense you and her can be (or already are) one of the more 'high functioning' couples around here. She doesn't strike me as someone who's unhappy and you strike me as someone who is very happy, in his unhappiness


----------



## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> But that is an important point. I am NOT interested in "spoiling" the relationship. I am not neutral as to that outcome. I am actively opposed to that outcome.


Which is where the problem is.


----------



## john117

inmyprime said:


> In what sense was she offering an ONS? It seems an oxymoron because they are married...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sex once in year(s) in a marriage is an ONS for all practical purposes.


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> I get the feeling she knows you and your quirks well enough by now to accept you for who you are. Now it's your turn to see if you can offer her the same courtesy!


No, absolutely not. Never.

As you say, I enjoy punishing myself too much to ever accept her as she is, or to accept myself as I am. I flog myself for staying with her, and I comfort myself that staying with her is my best revenge - because she is stuck with me and all my flaws.

Perhaps it is actually not punishment for her to be with me. Perhaps, as you say, she knows me and accepts me. Still, she knows that she does not make me happy, and that bothers her. Her being bothered is compensation enough for me.

Someone recently posted that my life is one big punk of myself. Exactly. I am living a game. Can I convince her to stay even though she knows she does not make me happy? So far I am winning. As far as I can tell (and yes she has said this out loud so I am not imagining it), she comforts herself that I would never be happy, alone or with someone else, so my unhappiness is not her fault and causes her no guilt. She is probably correct. Most likely I will never be happy. Hence my antipathy toward leaving her (or pushing her to leave me). If I am going to be unhappy in any event, I might as well share my unhappiness with her. After all, who deserves it more than her?

Trick question: me, I do. I deserve it more than her. And I make sure I feed it every day without fail.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> No, absolutely not. Never.
> 
> As you say, I enjoy punishing myself too much to ever accept her as she is, or to accept myself as I am. I flog myself for staying with her, and I comfort myself that staying with her is my best revenge - because she is stuck with me and all my flaws.
> 
> Perhaps it is actually not punishment for her to be with me. Perhaps, as you say, she knows me and accepts me. Still, she knows that she does not make me happy, and that bothers her. Her being bothered is compensation enough for me.
> 
> Someone recently posted that my life is one big punk of myself. Exactly. I am living a game. Can I convince her to stay even though she knows she does not make me happy? So far I am winning. As far as I can tell (and yes she has said this out loud so I am not imagining it), she comforts herself that I would never be happy, alone or with someone else, so my unhappiness is not her fault and causes her no guilt. She is probably correct. Most likely I will never be happy. Hence my antipathy toward leaving her (or pushing her to leave me). If I am going to be unhappy in any event, I might as well share my unhappiness with her. After all, who deserves it more than her?
> 
> Trick question: me, I do. I deserve it more than her. And I make sure I feed it every day without fail.


You are one of the funniest posters on this forum...(I am not making fun of your situation, just that this: "Still, she knows that she does not make me happy, and that bothers her. Her being bothered is compensation enough for me."
is gold).
What happens if it turns out that she loves you with all your 'flaws'? Maybe to her, you are like a really adorable version of 'Professor Evil', planning all these revenges that backfire and make her love you even more?
Let me back up a bit....You appear to despise her, for depriving you of sexual intimacy and your revenge is: not accepting sexual intimacy when she offers it...
What's the phrase I am looking for...oh, *IT'S CIRCULAR!!!!!!*
And a genius plan 

Crap, what do relationships do to people - reading stuff on here makes me wonder why anyone even _tries_ to have a relationship with anyone at all. 

One nightmare after another...


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> What happens if it turns out that she loves you with all your 'flaws'? Maybe to her, you are like a really adorable version of 'Professor Evil', planning all these revenges that backfire and make her love you even more?


You have us pegged. She loves me in the Pinky and The Brain manner. She knows that I am trying to "take over the world" of her sexuality, and she knows I will fail, and she likes watching my insane machinations.

We love each other. That does not in any way imply that either of us is capable of helping the other person be happier than we would be apart. She might argue that she is happier with me than she was without me. Well, if her being alone lead to getting raped multiple times, and her husband has learned to leave her alone, yes, I guess that is an improvement. Not saying much though. If being with someone is NOT better than multiple rapes, that is a REALLY bad relationship!



> Let me back up a bit....You appear to despise her, for depriving you of sexual intimacy and your revenge is: not accepting sexual intimacy when she offers it...
> What's the phrase I am looking for...oh, *IT'S CIRCULAR!!!!!!*
> And a genius plan


She is not offering me sexual intimacy. She is offering me the use of her body in a totally one-sided activity. As far as I can tell, during sex she does her best to turn off her brain and pretend nothing is happening to her body. It is like having sex with someone who is in a coma. Suppose someone told you that they were going to be placed into a medically induced coma, and that you are free to have sex with them while they are unconscious. Would you describe that as "offering sexual intimacy"? I don't.



> Crap, what do relationships do to people - reading stuff on here makes me wonder why anyone even _tries_ to have a relationship with anyone at all.
> One nightmare after another...


That is a big part of why I stay. I know that any relationship that involves me is going to be a nightmare. So I might as well stay in the one that involves the mother of my children.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> She is not offering me sexual intimacy. She is offering me the use of her body in a totally one-sided activity. As far as I can tell, during sex she does her best to turn off her brain and pretend nothing is happening to her body. It is like having sex with someone who is in a coma. Suppose someone told you that they were going to be placed into a medically induced coma, and that you are free to have sex with them while they are unconscious. Would you describe that as "offering sexual intimacy"? I don't.


:grin2: If it was my wife and she offered to comatise herself out of her own free will, in order to make me happy(er), then yes, I would probably feel it was my duty to accept that gift :smile2:

But truth is, she is not in a coma, she is trying to work out how to enjoy it and you have to encourage her for trying (or at least not shut down her efforts!).

Why not think of it as The Ultimate Revenge: next time take up her offer, practice sex with her for a few months until she really enjoys it and then when she starts coming begging you for it: you win because even though she has learnt to enjoy sex, it will have to always be with you (because according to you, you are such a lousy lover!). :wink2:

Just don't expect too much, too soon (I know 'too soon' is perhaps not appropriate but what about: 'better late than never').


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

inmyprime said:


> next time take up her offer, practice sex with her for a few months *until she really enjoys it and then when she starts coming begging you for it:* you win because even though she has learnt to enjoy sex, it will have to always be with you (because according to you, you are such a lousy lover!).


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> But truth is, she is not in a coma, she is trying to work out how to enjoy it and you have to encourage her for trying (or at least not shut down her efforts!).


No, she is not trying to work out how to enjoy it. She is trying to work out how to endure it.



> Why not think of it as The Ultimate Revenge: next time take up her offer, practice sex with her for a few months until she really enjoys it and then when she starts coming begging you for it: you win because even though she has learnt to enjoy sex, it will have to always be with you (because according to you, you are such a lousy lover!). :wink2:


If she does not go to therapy to reconnect with her sexuality on her own, there is nothing I can do to get her to enjoy it. Without therapy, she will never "beg me for it" because she enjoys it so much. She may offer to provide it, but only because she is terrified I will leave her if she doesn't.

And that is the point. We don't share sex. She provides it. I am the only one who gets anything out of it. Dude, re-read my posts. She doesn't get anything out of my fingers. She doesn't get anything out of my tongue. She refuses to let me use a vibrator on her. Do you really think she gets anything out of having my **** inside her (besides nausea)?

And for the record, I AM a lousy lover. If I were still in contact with any of the women I ever had sex with, I would be tempted to get them to post here to provide references as to just how lousy I am.


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## chillymorn69

Holdingontoit said:


> No, she is not trying to work out how to enjoy it. She is trying to work out how to endure it.
> 
> 
> 
> If she does not go to therapy to reconnect with her sexuality on her own, there is nothing I can do to get her to enjoy it. Without therapy, she will never "beg me for it" because she enjoys it so much. She may offer to provide it, but only because she is terrified I will leave her if she doesn't.
> 
> And that is the point. We don't share sex. She provides it. I am the only one who gets anything out of it. Dude, re-read my posts. She doesn't get anything out of my fingers. She doesn't get anything out of my tongue. She refuses to let me use a vibrator on her. Do you really think she gets anything out of having my **** inside her (besides nausea)?
> 
> And for the record, I AM a lousy lover. If I were still in contact with any of the women I ever had sex with, I would be tempted to get them to post here to provide references as to just how lousy I am.


What makes a lousy lover?


I think a good love tries to please his/her partner. 


Does't mmatter how long you last or how big your johnson is. What matters is your willingness to please. 

At least that my definition of a good lover.


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## Openminded

Considering all of this, why do you keep trying on the very rare occasion that she offers? At one time IIRC you had completely given up on the idea of sex with her ever again. That would seem the easier path than what you go through when she offers.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> No, she is not trying to work out how to enjoy it. She is trying to work out how to endure it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she does not go to therapy to reconnect with her sexuality on her own, there is nothing I can do to get her to enjoy it. Without therapy, she will never "beg me for it" because she enjoys it so much. She may offer to provide it, but only because she is terrified I will leave her if she doesn't.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is the point. We don't share sex. She provides it. I am the only one who gets anything out of it. Dude, re-read my posts. She doesn't get anything out of my fingers. She doesn't get anything out of my tongue. She refuses to let me use a vibrator on her. Do you really think she gets anything out of having my **** inside her (besides nausea)?
> 
> 
> 
> And for the record, I AM a lousy lover. If I were still in contact with any of the women I ever had sex with, I would be tempted to get them to post here to provide references as to just how lousy I am.



She just wants intimacy with you. Orgasm is not the end goal for her. Why don’t you just provide her with what she needs? She is trying to do the same for you.
If she doesn’t come, then let her. This is not a reflection on you or whether she had a good time.
I know it’s not ideal but it’s so much better than having a partner who doesn’t give a crap. 
Look at it as a journey: she is trying to become a person who enjoys sex, not to humiliate you. You are not a lousy lover. Just a bit impatient. 


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## 269370

john117 said:


> Sex once in year(s) in a marriage is an ONS for all practical purposes.



I must have missed the bit where she is only agreeable to have a ONS every few year(s).


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## Holdingontoit

chillymorn69 said:


> What makes a lousy lover?
> I think a good love tries to please his/her partner.
> Does't mmatter how long you last or how big your johnson is. What matters is your willingness to please.
> At least that my definition of a good lover.


Well, under your definition, I am a lousy lover.

Back when I was single and had a new partner every couple of years, this is how my typical sexual experience would go. After several dates, she finally gives the signal that "tonight is the night". We go to her place. Have sex. I use fingers and tongue to try to get her off. Sometimes she pretends she gets off, sometimes she doesn't pretend. After she gets bored with my failed ministrations, she lets me "do it". It lasts anywhere from 5 to 50 seconds. I am mortified. I hurriedly get dressed, leave her place, and never see her again. Then a retreat into my cocoon and wait for a few years to pass until I am able to delude another woman into thinking that I am decent relationship / marriage material and the pattern repeats.

There is no taking care of her after I am done. There is no round 2. There is no next date to see if it can be better.

Maybe by my posts you guys have created an image of me in which I am a generous lover who is simply frustrated and impatient. No. That is not me at all. I am a total mess who can't tolerate intimacy. Why do you think I decided to marry my wife?
@inmyprime was close. He said I despise my wife. The person I despise is me. No one can love someone else until they love themselves. And I hate myself with a feverish passion. No one can be intimate with another person until they are intimate with themselves. I will never be truly loving or intimate. I am not willing to do the work to accept myself, and until I do that I cannot be a good partner. That is why I do not pressure my wife to do her work. If I won't do mine, I cannot in good faith ask her to do hers.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> She just wants intimacy with you. Orgasm is not the end goal for her. Why don’t you just provide her with what she needs? She is trying to do the same for you.


Because I resent her too much to let her lie there silent an unmoving and then get up feeling she has done her duty. There is no intimacy. There is no communication. It is like having sex with a blow up doll. I am not going to pretend it was satisfying that just so she can feel better about herself. News flash: my orgasm is not the end goal for me, either. HER orgasm is my end goal. If she can't have them with me, then I would rather not have sex. See the dilemma, neither of us can provide what the other person wants.

Part of what I hate about myself is that for 20 years I WAS able to have sex with her despite her lying there silent and unmoving. I did enjoy myself even though it should have been clear she did not. I was totally selfish. I pressured her for more of that. It disgusts me. I disgust myself.

@Openminded asked why I have sex with H2 when she offers. Great question. First, because it seems very cruel to turn her down completely. She feels bad to get rejected, just as I did all those times she shot me down. I know how that feels so it is difficult for me to do that to her.

Also, as @Affaircare has pointed out, hope springs eternal. If it has been 8 or 9 months since the last session, and she seems very much emotionally connected to me, and she wants so very much to try again, then I figure let us try and see what happens. And of course, the same thing happens as the last time. And both of us are disappointed. So we snuggle for a while and try to pretend we aren't hurting so badly, and reassure each other that we are staying together despite the pain. And then we go back to our daily sexless lives.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> Because I resent her too much to let her lie there silent an unmoving and then get up feeling she has done her duty. There is no intimacy. There is no communication. It is like having sex with a blow up doll. I am not going to pretend it was satisfying that just so she can feel better about herself. News flash: my orgasm is not the end goal for me, either. HER orgasm is my end goal. If she can't have them with me, then I would rather not have sex. See the dilemma, neither of us can provide what the other person wants.
> 
> Part of what I hate about myself is that for 20 years I WAS able to have sex with her despite her lying there silent and unmoving. I did enjoy myself even though it should have been clear she did not. I was totally selfish. I pressured her for more of that. It disgusts me. I disgust myself.
> 
> @Openminded asked why I have sex with H2 when she offers. Great question. First, because it seems very cruel to turn her down completely. She feels bad to get rejected, just as I did all those times she shot me down. I know how that feels so it is difficult for me to do that to her.
> 
> Also, as @Affaircare has pointed out, hope springs eternal. If it has been 8 or 9 months since the last session, and she seems very much emotionally connected to me, and she wants so very much to try again, then I figure let us try and see what happens. And of course, the same thing happens as the last time. And both of us are disappointed. So we snuggle for a while and try to pretend we aren't hurting so badly, and reassure each other that we are staying together despite the pain. And then we go back to our daily sexless lives.


Now I am really confused. 

"Neither can provide what the other person wants"

You have a requirement that she O, but she may be incapable of doing that. Why are you so hung up on her O? If she's open and offering herself to you, she's clearly interested and wanting to connect with you. If you need her to make noise or do something else during sex - can you not tell her that? 

You are trying to give her something she does NOT want or care much about...the O. The pressure you heap onto her probably feels monumental to her. You are setting her up to fail and I am quite sure this gets heaped onto her "ways I know I disappoint my husband" pile. 



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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

duplicate deleted


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

kag123 said:


> Now I am really confused.
> 
> "Neither can provide what the other person wants"
> 
> You have a requirement that she O, but she may be incapable of doing that. Why are you so hung up on her O? If she's open and offering herself to you, she's clearly interested and wanting to connect with you. If you need her to make noise or do something else during sex - can you not tell her that?
> 
> You are trying to give her something she does NOT want or care much about...the O. The pressure you heap onto her probably feels monumental to her. You are setting her up to fail and I am quite sure this gets heaped onto her "ways I know I disappoint my husband" pile.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


While the lack of O can't help but be disappointing, what's truly problematic is the lack of interest in, or desire to O. A wife should at least want to O with her husband. Whether or not he's disappointed is really small potatoes relative to her thinking its unimportant in the first place. Os can be a wonderful part of intimacy, and not sharing that can't help but be a barrier to intimacy. In the absence of a legitimately diagnosable physical impediment, not wanting to O can only be interpreted as a lack of willingness to fully open up to your partner--hardly a recipe for "wanting to connect."


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, under your definition, I am a lousy lover.
> 
> Back when I was single and had a new partner every couple of years, this is how my typical sexual experience would go. After several dates, she finally gives the signal that "tonight is the night". We go to her place. Have sex. I use fingers and tongue to try to get her off. Sometimes she pretends she gets off, sometimes she doesn't pretend. After she gets bored with my failed ministrations, she lets me "do it". It lasts anywhere from 5 to 50 seconds. I am mortified. I hurriedly get dressed, leave her place, and never see her again. Then a retreat into my cocoon and wait for a few years to pass until I am able to delude another woman into thinking that I am decent relationship / marriage material and the pattern repeats.
> 
> There is no taking care of her after I am done. There is no round 2. There is no next date to see if it can be better.
> 
> Maybe by my posts you guys have created an image of me in which I am a generous lover who is simply frustrated and impatient. No. That is not me at all. I am a total mess who can't tolerate intimacy. Why do you think I decided to marry my wife?


I know, but that's why it's a marriage made in heaven! You are married to someone who doesn't enjoy sex and she is married to someone who is (supposedly) bad at it!
You don't have the pressure to have to 'perform well' and she doesn't have the pressure to have to enjoy it - so just make the best of it and keep 'practicing' whenever you or she feels like it, without the fear of humiliation or rejection.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Because I resent her too much to let her lie there silent an unmoving and then get up feeling she has done her duty. There is no intimacy. There is no communication. It is like having sex with a blow up doll. I am not going to pretend it was satisfying that just so she can feel better about herself. News flash: my orgasm is not the end goal for me, either. HER orgasm is my end goal. If she can't have them with me, then I would rather not have sex. See the dilemma, neither of us can provide what the other person wants.


Oh but I think you both provide exactly for each other what each of you want  Now anyways. Maybe it was different years ago. It's just that you also enjoy complaining about it.
Ok I didn't mean it to sound cruel but I think part of it has to do with 'sexual shame'. Intimacy seems to trigger it in you and it comes out in a rather unusual way but it basically comes down to shame. You feel ashamed that you sometimes desire her and pretend that you hate her for making you feel this way. But she is not the reason why you feel ashamed of yourself. She is actually your 'saviour'. If you were now with a women who actually enjoyed sex and expected a lot of it from you, and for whatever reason you couldn't or wouldn't be able to provide a performance that satisfied her, you'd then feel a different kind of shame. And I am not sure it would feel better. Because you'd have no one else to blame but yourself.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Oh but I think you both provide exactly for each other what each of you want  Now anyways. Maybe it was different years ago. It's just that you also enjoy complaining about it.
> Ok I didn't mean it to sound cruel but I think part of it has to do with 'sexual shame'. Intimacy seems to trigger it in you and it comes out in a rather unusual way but it basically comes down to shame. You feel ashamed that you sometimes desire her and pretend that you hate her for making you feel this way. But she is not the reason why you feel ashamed of yourself. She is actually your 'saviour'. If you were now with a women who actually enjoyed sex and expected a lot of it from you, and for whatever reason you couldn't or wouldn't be able to provide a performance that satisfied her, you'd then feel a different kind of shame. And I am not sure it would feel better. Because you'd have no one else to blame but yourself.


Yes, this, exactly. I have posted many times that we are perfect for each other. And this is a large piece of why that is true. If I were with a woman who DID enjoy sex, and wanted to have orgasms, I would fail spectacularly. And she would leave me for someone else. Or stay but we would both know the truth. And that would feel much worse for me than to stay with someone who puts no pressure on me to perform.

I am with exactly who I should be with to minimize my shame.

And yes, my shame arises from inside me and has nothing to do with her. You understand me perfectly. Thank you for engaging in this dialogue the past couple of days. Nice to make murky subconscious things explicit.


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## 269370

How much of it is just extrapolations from your own fears though and how much is real - that was more the point.
We can’t fail unless we try 


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> How much of it is just extrapolations from your own fears though and how much is real - that was more the point.


All real. I know everyone here is skeptical and believes most of the negativity is in my head. I wish it were. Unfortunately, it is all real.



> We can’t fail unless we try


Au contraire. I can't fail if I don't try. If I try, failure (in this area for me) is pretty much assured.


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## john117

Five years ago I was 35 lb overweight. I started cycling and can now do 30 miles easily, best is 35. Lost 25 lb in the process.

I thought I suck in calculus. Like real calculus not stats or similar. Got thrown into the lions pit and learned enough calculus in a month or two to do complex 3d coordinate transformations. 

I got in product design with zero - ZERO - actual design experience. Busted my tail reading and learning and succeeded.

You have to try. Sex is no different.


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## kag123

Did you decide what you are going to do about your job?

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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> All real. I know everyone here is skeptical and believes most of the negativity is in my head. I wish it were. Unfortunately, it is all real.


Haha, it's your 'head' talking again.
You need to do some kind of confidence/self-appreciation course (I am no expert but I can volunteer to be your wingman next time you are going to pick up a woman and before making her orgasm multiple times :wink2:
Though I am not going to stay in the room. It has be via some kind of audio device..


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## Holdingontoit

kag123 said:


> Did you decide what you are going to do about your job?


Nope. Will spend the weekend analyzing and agonizing.

The biggest reason to do it is to force myself to "up my game". I feel like a loser in most areas of life. I could rest on my meagre laurels here and likely remain employed (assuming the company remains in existence) as I have specialized knowledge they value. But not challenged to be my best. Taking the new position would force me to perform to prove myself and earn a secure place on their team. They also value my knowledge but would require I expend more energy and effort and produce higher results.

I am thinking this is my last best chance to challenge myself professionally, as I am getting to old to start over again. Terrifying but probably in my best interest. Will be very uncomfortable (long commute from our home, rent teeny apartment closer for during the week placing us in financial stress, etc). Physically exhausting. Mentally and emotionally stressful. Probably just what I need.


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## Holdingontoit

Buddy who is leaving the firm (already left) thinks I am an idiot for taking a job in the big city for basically the same money I am making now. He says to ask for more money. Will let them know I am not yet enthusiastic.

Had a talk with H2. Asked her about how she would feel about having PIV sex again. She said her worry about sex is fear that it will hurt my feelings when she tells me "no". She said she would be willing to have PIV sex and it doesn't hurt or feel bad, but only if I promise not to feel rejected when she tells me "no".

I told her that in those circumstances I would prefer not to have sex, because I am not going to pretend it doesn't bother me when she rejects me. I am not going to mope and pout. I am just going to find something else to do to distract me.

What I did not say was how ridiculous it is for her to insist that the rapes have zero impact on her sexuality when her first reaction to "should we go back to having sex" is "how will you react when I reject you?" Her entire focus sexually is on power and control and force and consent. Those are rape concepts. Not sexual ones. she refused to discuss whether she likes it hard and fast or slow and gentle. She refused to discuss using toys. She said nothing matters and she doesn't feel anything "down there" no matter what we do. Fine. I accept that she doesn't. But she also doesn't get enough joy form seeing me happy to do this "take it or leave" it activity. So I am thinking it is not nearly so "take it or leave it" as she insists.

No new information. Just confirmation that I understand the situation and it won't ever change. Back to focusing on the new job and figuring out how much to ask for. I probably won't take it. But it is nice to fantasize for a while.


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## SunCMars

Holdingontoit said:


> All real. I know everyone here is skeptical and believes most of the negativity is in my head. I wish it were. Unfortunately, it is all real.
> 
> 
> 
> Au contraire. I can't fail if I don't try. *If I try, failure (in this area for me) is pretty much assured.*


Failure, before the attempt, is the 'root' failure.
As this, your' mind fails the future.

Fails the challenge.
Fails to challenge.
Said future.

Tomorrow has you beaten, before Today turns out it's lights.

Just Sayin'

Poignantly..


----------



## SunCMars

On the sexual failure..

As a married man you are doomed.
As such and as such married to HER.

As a single man you are freed.
Free to practice with women, maybe a pro....one who will teach you what you say you don't know, but cannot fail to know.
Free to see a urologist, maybe a surgeon to repair any 'short' comings.

Most anything is fixable.
As an Engineer and a Student of Life. I know these things.
I 'no' those things that block my progress.

You need to 'no' the failure.


----------



## Tatsuhiko

Seems like if you're going to reboot your life, you should start by booting her.


----------



## Holdingontoit

SunCMars said:


> As a single man you are freed.


No, not free. I take my prison with me. She does not imprison me. I imprison myself. 



> Free to see a urologist, maybe a surgeon to repair any 'short' comings.


There is no such safe reliable surgery. One guy even made a movie about it. But he did end the movie with a girlfriend who didn't mind him being small.



> Most anything is fixable.


You have to want to fix it. You have to be willing to pay the cost. Endure the discomfort of growth. I am neither willing to try nor willing to trade my current discomfort for growing pains.

It is not surprising to me that everyone here is telling me to change, given that I have chosen not to live. But we all die eventually. I have just chosen to stop living sooner than most.


----------



## SunCMars

Holdingontoit said:


> No, not free. I take my prison with me. She does not imprison me. I imprison myself.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such safe reliable surgery. One guy even made a movie about it. But he did end the movie with a girlfriend who didn't mind him being small.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to want to fix it. You have to be willing to pay the cost. Endure the discomfort of growth. I am neither willing to try nor willing to trade my current discomfort for growing pains.
> 
> It is not surprising to me that everyone here is telling me to change, given that I have chosen not to live. But we all die eventually. I have just chosen to stop living sooner than most.



Whoa Kay!

I turned on the faucet. You did not drink.

My job is what? 
Done?

Oh, Ho, Hee, Hee!

Too many Red Queen supporters would love that, THIS.

You are done.

I am not done.
I am still breathing.

Just Sayin'


----------



## Holdingontoit

What a mess I am.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Interesting chat with H2. We were discussing her friend who is getting divorced. I asked when the woman is moving in with her rich boyfriend. H2 said she can't because she is still married to STBX. I asked her what the holdup is for getting their divorce finalized. H2 said the woman wants more money. I told H2 the woman should accept she isn't getting anything in the divorce, just like her husband didn't get any during their marriage. H2 giggled, then stopped, then said "I gave you great kids".

I told her that I know she can't give me sex. That she would need professional help to be able to enjoy sex and want to share it with me. But I am not pushing her to get that help. Because if she started to like sex, she might want to be with someone who is actually good at it. Since I am not that guy, I don't want her to learn to want it. She said that was crazy, and asked if that is how I truly feel. I told her it is. And it is.

I ended with this remark: when I asked you about going back to having sex, and what would make it good for you, your response was about consent and rejection. It was not about wanting it faster or slower or gentler or rougher or fingers or tongues or candles and rose petals or about me getting in better shape to last longer. You talked about power and control and consent and refusal. That is not the language of sex. That is the language of rape. As long as you use the language of rape to describe sex with me, I will continue to believe that any sex with you would be improper and I won't be participating.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> Interesting chat with H2. We were discussing her friend who is getting divorced. I asked when the woman is moving in with her rich boyfriend. H2 said she can't because she is still married to STBX. I asked her what the holdup is for getting their divorce finalized. H2 said the woman wants more money. I told H2 the woman should accept she isn't getting anything in the divorce, just like her husband didn't get any during their marriage. H2 giggled, then stopped, then said "I gave you great kids".
> 
> I told her that I know she can't give me sex. That she would need professional help to be able to enjoy sex and want to share it with me. *But I am not pushing her to get that help. Because if she started to like sex, she might want to be with someone who is actually good at it. Since I am not that guy, I don't want her to learn to want it.* She said that was crazy, and asked if that is how I truly feel. I told her it is. And it is.
> 
> I ended with this remark: when I asked you about going back to having sex, and what would make it good for you, your response was about consent and rejection. It was not about wanting it faster or slower or gentler or rougher or fingers or tongues or candles and rose petals or about me getting in better shape to last longer. You talked about power and control and consent and refusal. That is not the language of sex. That is the language of rape. As long as you use the language of rape to describe sex with me, I will continue to believe that any sex with you would be improper and I won't be participating.


With each post, you further erode any empathy or sympathy any might have for you and your miserable situation. I guess, given your love of self deprecation an self flagellation you may well be getting something out of getting everyone else to think less of you, just as you do with your wife.

Even with a good understanding of your predicament and complete sympathy that you don't want to do another Charlie Brown, with your wife as Lucy, pulling the sexual football out from you at the last second, that bolded statement makes no sense. Zero. 

For all your complaints, if your wife actually did honestly seek help, that would mitigate most if not all of them. *My God, Man, if she would reach the point of being willing to face her demons in an effort to improve your marriage, the least you could do is respond by trying to "be good at sex."* You may somehow be inherently bad at it, but you can learn! Don't you think she would appreciate the effort just as you would appreciate hers? You wouldn't have to be Casanova, Cyrano, and Lothario all rolled into one for her to respond. 

I know her actually making such strides may be exceedingly unlikely, and that particular disappointment may be well founded. But fleeing from the result if she did? Madness, man! Self-destructive, chicken**** madness!


----------



## Personal

Holdingontoit said:


> I ended with this remark: when I asked you about going back to having sex, and what would make it good for you, your response was about consent and rejection. It was not about wanting it faster or slower or gentler or rougher or fingers or tongues or candles and rose petals or about me getting in better shape to last longer. You talked about power and control and consent and refusal. That is not the language of sex. That is the language of rape. As long as you use the language of rape to describe sex with me, I will continue to believe that any sex with you would be improper and I won't be participating.


Almost like being raped again.

If I was wanting to extract a pound of flesh or more from a rape victim, who I purportedly loved yet harboured hatred for I would end that conversation as you did.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> For all your complaints, if your wife actually did honestly seek help, that would mitigate most if not all of them. *My God, Man, if she would reach the point of being willing to face her demons in an effort to improve your marriage, the least you could do is respond by trying to "be good at sex."* You may somehow be inherently bad at it, but you can learn! Don't you think she would appreciate the effort just as you would appreciate hers?


If she made the effort, I would reciprocate. But she has to go first. 

I mentioned this to her a few days ago during the initial conversation about trying to have sex again. I told her that I currently have performance problems and I need some time to get into better shape and order some blue pills online so I can be in a position to perform adequately when she consents. I told her I was leery of doing the work without some sense of investment on her part in the process. Because if I start working out and getting into shape and ordering pills, I imagine she is going to feel pressure to consent. And I am going to be hard pressed to not feel bad about her rejecting me if I make an investment in getting into sex shape and it is all for nothing. She said "don't do it because I can't handle the pressure and I can't promise to consent".

@Personal: you understand me best of all.

And no, I am not ashamed of what I said. I spent years being loving and accommodating. I spent years in MC and ST being patient. I spent years listening to her say she is not affected by the rapes and not calling her out on obvious falsehood to spare her the pain of dealing with her wounds. I tried to be nice and loving and supportive and all I did was allow her to indulge herself.

She has been saying to me lately that she hopes that some day we will have sex again. I told her that for me to do that with her, I need some evidence that having sex with her is not akin to raping her. Instead of giving me evidence that she enjoys sex (or at least enjoys seeing me happy after we have sex), and it isn't psychologically difficult for her, she gave me evidence that it is.

At some point, it isn't being kind and loving toward her to pretend she doesn't have issues left over from the rapes. I am not telling her she must deal with those issues. I am only saying that if she chooses not to, I don't feel comfortable having sex with her.

This is one of the huge elephants in the room between H2 and me. I am tired of pretending it isn't there. I am not demanding that we evict it from our home. I am just saying that I am not going to pretend it isn't in there with us.

I have always said I am not perfect. Plenty for me to work on. I have in recent years justified my not working on my issues because she refused to work on hers. Now I am contemplating taking a new job that will force me to face my issues head on. I am terrified. My wife sees it and asks what she can do to help empower me so I am motivated to go to battle. How the heck do I answer that without pointing toward the elephant?


----------



## 2020hindsight

Personal said:


> Almost like being raped again.
> 
> If I was wanting to extract a pound of flesh or more from a rape victim, who I purportedly loved yet harboured hatred for I would end that conversation as you did.


Great observation. He sure loves extracting that pound of flesh. I can't understand why his long-suffering wife doesn't wake up and depart with her half of the marital assets. Escaping all those pointed and hateful comments would be just the beginning of the compensation. H is obsessed with money, so denting his control freakery about finances would be quite satisfying, as well.

She must really love him. But beware H: one day she might get sick of being spoken to in such a manner.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> If she made the effort, I would reciprocate. But she has to go first.


Given what you've been through, I can sympathize with your need for her to "go first."

But...
... you said unequivocally that you don't want her to make the effort... because you don't want to deal with the results.

Which completely invalidates your otherwise reasonable sounding offer to reciprocate.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I said I haven't asked her to make the effort because I fear that if she did she would leave me for a guy who is better in bed. I never said I wouldn't try my best to please her. I am simply pessimistic that my best is good enough.


----------



## Notself

Holdingontoit said:


> And no, I am not ashamed of what I said. I spent years being loving and accommodating. I spent years in MC and ST being patient. I spent years listening to her say she is not affected by the rapes and not calling her out on obvious falsehood to spare her the pain of dealing with her wounds. I tried to be nice and loving and supportive and all I did was allow her to indulge herself.
> 
> She has been saying to me lately that she hopes that some day we will have sex again. I told her that for me to do that with her, I need some evidence that having sex with her is not akin to raping her. Instead of giving me evidence that she enjoys sex (or at least enjoys seeing me happy after we have sex), and it isn't psychologically difficult for her, she gave me evidence that it is.
> 
> At some point, it isn't being kind and loving toward her to pretend she doesn't have issues left over from the rapes. I am not telling her she must deal with those issues. I am only saying that if she chooses not to, I don't feel comfortable having sex with her.
> 
> This is one of the huge elephants in the room between H2 and me. I am tired of pretending it isn't there. I am not demanding that we evict it from our home. I am just saying that I am not going to pretend it isn't in there with us.


I'm coming in late, and I apologize. I'm new. I don't know if any of this has already been said.

My first marriage, I think, was almost exactly like yours. My ex-wife was a rape victim (from before our marriage) and spent our entire marriage treating me like *I* was also a rapist because I wanted to have sex with her. I understand what that's like. It warps you. After a while, you actually *feel* like you're a rapist, because you've been accused of being one for so long.

And after years of this treatment, oh my god, the resentment. I wanted her to want to have sex with me so badly - so I could reject her just like she'd rejected me. But who was I kidding? The less than a handful of times she actually wanted sex I was there panting like a puppy. It was not great sex, and all it did was lead me on some more, which ended up making me loathe myself even more.

Guess what finally ended our marriage? Did I nut up and say "No more?" Like hell I did. No, she found someone she liked better than me in the end. She was quite happy to end our partnership while I raged and struggled and hated myself and all women for close to a decade afterwards. I still do IC because of it. Almost two decades after the divorce, I am finally close to forgiveness.
@Holdingontoit, this is what your life is now. It doesn't get better. It WILL get even worse over time, I assure you. The only way to fix it is to just stop. Just. Stop. I promise you the pain you will feel after your marriage is over will be intense. You will hate life. You will hate everything. You will hate yourself.

BUT. You will not hate those things as much as you do now. And then I promise things will start to get better. Your path now? Things will NOT get better. Things will get much, much worse until the decision is taken out of your hands.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@Notself: Thank you. I appreciate the advice and you openly sharing your pain and insight from having lived through it.
I am 60 years old. I am not getting divorced so that I can be happy in my 70s. I have been married 25 years. The first 10 or 12 were the hardest. The past 2 the easiest.
If she leaves me, so be it. I was unhappy before I met her. I am unhappy now. I will be unhappy if she leaves. I don't see the point of blowing up my world to make a change that will, in the end, make no difference to me.
I am glad to hear it worked for you. I hope you find someone who brings you joy. I hope you find joy within yourself to share with them.


----------



## Openminded

My (female) opinion? Quit mentioning sex and -- most important -- shut her down when she mentions sex. A sexual relationship between the two of you will never work because she doesn't want it to work, and you know it, but the two of you keep going round and round about it like something will magically change someday. It won't. Let it go -- as you said you were going to -- and accept the fate you have chosen for yourself.


----------



## Herschel

Holdingontoit said:


> No, not free. I take my prison with me. She does not imprison me. I imprison myself.
> 
> 
> 
> There is no such safe reliable surgery. One guy even made a movie about it. But he did end the movie with a girlfriend who didn't mind him being small.
> 
> 
> 
> You have to want to fix it. You have to be willing to pay the cost. Endure the discomfort of growth. I am neither willing to try nor willing to trade my current discomfort for growing pains.
> 
> It is not surprising to me that everyone here is telling me to change, given that I have chosen not to live. But we all die eventually. I have just chosen to stop living sooner than most.


There seems to be a level of self-schadenfreude in you. It seems more like you want to be a failure and be upset about it cause it makes you feel good to be the worst at sex.


----------



## 269370

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> With each post, you further erode any empathy or sympathy any might have for you and your miserable situation. I guess, given your love of self deprecation an self flagellation you may well be getting something out of getting everyone else to think less of you, just as you do with your wife.
> 
> Even with a good understanding of your predicament and complete sympathy that you don't want to do another Charlie Brown, with your wife as Lucy, pulling the sexual football out from you at the last second, that bolded statement makes no sense. Zero.
> 
> For all your complaints, if your wife actually did honestly seek help, that would mitigate most if not all of them. *My God, Man, if she would reach the point of being willing to face her demons in an effort to improve your marriage, the least you could do is respond by trying to "be good at sex."* You may somehow be inherently bad at it, but you can learn! Don't you think she would appreciate the effort just as you would appreciate hers? You wouldn't have to be Casanova, Cyrano, and Lothario all rolled into one for her to respond.
> 
> I know her actually making such strides may be exceedingly unlikely, and that particular disappointment may be well founded. But fleeing from the result if she did? Madness, man! Self-destructive, chicken**** madness!


Don't be fooled by the posts - he's actually good at it! The fact that he is using 'tongues' already puts him in the top 20 at least


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> If she made the effort, I would reciprocate. But she has to go first.
> 
> I mentioned this to her a few days ago during the initial conversation about trying to have sex again. I told her that I currently have performance problems and I need some time to get into better shape and order some blue pills online so I can be in a position to perform adequately when she consents. I told her I was leery of doing the work without some sense of investment on her part in the process. Because if I start working out and getting into shape and ordering pills, I imagine she is going to feel pressure to consent. And I am going to be hard pressed to not feel bad about her rejecting me if I make an investment in getting into sex shape and it is all for nothing. She said "don't do it because I can't handle the pressure and I can't promise to consent".
> 
> @Personal: you understand me best of all.
> 
> And no, I am not ashamed of what I said. I spent years being loving and accommodating. I spent years in MC and ST being patient. I spent years listening to her say she is not affected by the rapes and not calling her out on obvious falsehood to spare her the pain of dealing with her wounds. I tried to be nice and loving and supportive and all I did was allow her to indulge herself.
> 
> She has been saying to me lately that she hopes that some day we will have sex again. I told her that for me to do that with her, I need some evidence that having sex with her is not akin to raping her. Instead of giving me evidence that she enjoys sex (or at least enjoys seeing me happy after we have sex), and it isn't psychologically difficult for her, she gave me evidence that it is.
> 
> At some point, it isn't being kind and loving toward her to pretend she doesn't have issues left over from the rapes. I am not telling her she must deal with those issues. I am only saying that if she chooses not to, I don't feel comfortable having sex with her.
> 
> This is one of the huge elephants in the room between H2 and me. I am tired of pretending it isn't there. I am not demanding that we evict it from our home. I am just saying that I am not going to pretend it isn't in there with us.
> 
> I have always said I am not perfect. Plenty for me to work on. I have in recent years justified my not working on my issues because she refused to work on hers. Now I am contemplating taking a new job that will force me to face my issues head on. I am terrified. My wife sees it and asks what she can do to help empower me so I am motivated to go to battle. How the heck do I answer that without pointing toward the elephant?


Have sex with the elephant then 
You need to do less talking and more 'sexual experimenting'. She recently has clearly been more open and willing to try stuff with you or let you try stuff with her. You are overthinking it all: stop talking about ordering 'blue pills' and thinking she will leave you for a better lover etc and just have sex with her already! She doesn't need to be the first one to come (don't give her too much pressure about it: women can still enjoy sex without having to orgasm). Most of sex happens in the head and practice makes perfect. Just keep doing it regularly and eventually it will come...back to her. The hormones will do their thing and her brain will relax eventually.
It's crazy - all this talk.


----------



## john117

Y'all seem to have missed the reference to "Soul of a new machine". The objective is not to have sex once and done. Or once in a quarter. The objective is to rebuild for what's worth an intimate life. With spouses like H2 you're more likely to see Kim Jong Un serving Thanksgiving meals to the needy in Kenosha than to see her put out on a regular basis.

To her, sex is all about control. A mechanism to address her inner demon's. Not a means to bonding or relationship building, but a means to prop up a fragile ego.

The fact that H2 didn't hit the floor crying her head out after his 100% on the spot accurate IMHO remarks is telling. 

Where he's wrong is the self improvement benefit to himself. I just got weighted during colonoscopy yesterday (ouches) and I'm now down 30 lb officially - 10 more to go to reach my ideal. I feel awesome and women notice.


----------



## 269370

john117 said:


> Y'all seem to have missed the reference to "Soul of a new machine". The objective is not to have sex once and done. Or once in a quarter. The objective is to rebuild for what's worth an intimate life. With spouses like H2 you're more likely to see Kim Jong Un serving Thanksgiving meals to the needy in Kenosha than to see her put out on a regular basis.
> 
> To her, sex is all about control. A mechanism to address her inner demon's. Not a means to bonding or relationship building, but a means to prop up a fragile ego.
> 
> The fact that H2 didn't hit the floor crying her head out after his 100% on the spot accurate IMHO remarks is telling.
> 
> Where he's wrong is the self improvement benefit to himself. I just got weighted during colonoscopy yesterday (ouches) and I'm now down 30 lb officially - 10 more to go to reach my ideal. I feel awesome and women notice.




It could be. Or she could just be starting to want to dip her toe in and see how it feels.
It doesn’t have to be like a gym membership: all or nothing. (Unless they offer a trial period).
Take it (her), as it (she) comes 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: if you think sex triggers any positive hormones in her, then you have not been paying attention. She gets no oxytoxon or endorphins. Just cortisol and andrenalin. As in "run! Flee! Escape!"


----------



## Satya

@Holdingontoit, I really appreciate your predicament, and I don't mean to sound insensitive, but as I continue to read your posts, I keep thinking that you and your W sure talk a heck of a lot and accomplish very little.

Like @Openminded said, maybe you should stop talking and start doing. Also like @john117 said, start doing things that build trust and teach her to slowly loosen her controlling grasp. You can't make her do anything, but you can push yourself to do something that gives you back some power and balance this silly power struggle. There shouldn't even be one. 

Sex to me should never be negotiated like you're an ambassador the UN. If Odo asked me if we could pretty please schedule some PIV sex in the next week, that be great, thanks - I'd ask him to hand me the barf bucket. It certainly wouldn't light my fire. That's just me. Your wife is a horse of a different color, sure. But I guess my point is, neediness is not attractive in general. 

You can't control using something that has no influence on the other person. Let sex be the thing that has no influence on you. Money after the zombie apocalypse becomes worthless because you can no longer use it to acquire what you desire.

Easier for me to say than for you to do comfortably, yes, but maybe you need to fake it till you make it. Just take sex off the table. Or at least until you've decided enough is enough and you divorce. You're not doing it to hold out hope she'll "give in," you're doing it because you have DIGNITY and you refuse to accept stale crumbs. That's not what you signed up for.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: if you think sex triggers any positive hormones in her, then you have not been paying attention. She gets no oxytoxon or endorphins. Just cortisol and andrenalin. As in "run! Flee! Escape!"




I know - but you can try an ‘ween’ her onto it, slowly, and maybe she’ll be releasing other hormones.
You are procrastinating too much which makes me wonder if you are that keen to do it at all 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

As someone who has somewhat experienced in the very distant past what she has experienced, I can say she is comfortable now as she is. Sex has no (good) meaning for her. Maybe therapy would help but she's not interested. This is who she is and all these conversations about sex will continue to go nowhere. You have said you could live without it rather than accept what she offers once in a blue moon. The better path would be to tell her sex will never happen again and there's no point in continuing useless conversations where nothing changes. But I don't think you will say that because apparently you like all of this too much to put a stop to it.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Not gonna "just do it". Going to take sex off the table. Back where it belongs. On the shelf.
There is no "building trust" that will allow her to become comfortable having sex with me. She isn't going to let go of her need for control. Ever. She has made that clear. Which is her choice to make.
Similarly, I am never going to forgive her. H2 will have to decide if she wants to stay married to me despite that meaning a life sentence of feeling guilty. Her call.
And that is why we are perfectly matched and meant for each other. Because she is going to stay. As am I. Two crazy people who belong together.


----------



## 269370

Openminded said:


> As someone who has somewhat experienced in the very distant past what she has experienced, I can say she is comfortable now as she is. Sex has no (good) meaning for her. Maybe therapy would help but she's not interested. This is who she is and all these conversations about sex will continue to go nowhere. You have said you could live without it rather than accept what she offers once in a blue moon. The better path would be to tell her sex will never happen again and there's no point in continuing useless conversations where nothing changes. But I don't think you will say that because apparently you like all of this too much to put a stop to it.


Sorry, i very much disagree with this. She clearly offered (and he didn't pester her for it, - quite the opposite - , she took initiative, she may not have orgasmed straight away as H expected her to, but she tried and he turned her down instead of having intercourse). I believe your situations may be similar but not identical. H is doing a lot of it to himself AND he's punishing her, I am afraid.


----------



## Openminded

Truthfully? The subject never should have been revisited. She's not changing and you're well aware of that. And this time leave the subject on the shelf where it belongs. 

Find something else to enjoy about life. Or not. Your life is going to continue along either way.


----------



## Openminded

inmyprime said:


> Sorry, i very much disagree with this. She clearly offered (and he didn't pester her for it, - quite the opposite - , she took initiative, she may not have orgasmed straight away as H expected her to, but she tried and he turned her down instead of having intercourse). I believe your situations may be similar but not identical. H is doing a lot of it to himself AND he's punishing her, I am afraid.


She offered only from a sense of obligation. That's not what he wants. 

There are women who feel nothing good when they are having sex but go through the motions (literally) now and then because it's an expected part of marriage. But he wants something (desire) that she can't give.


----------



## 269370

This is all completely cookoo - has anyone missed this bit?:




Holdingontoit said:


> If I were with a woman who DID enjoy sex, and wanted to have orgasms, I would fail spectacularly. And she would leave me for someone else. Or stay but we would both know the truth. And that would feel much worse for me than to stay with someone who puts no pressure on me to perform.


His greatest fear is not that she will reject him again, his greatest fear is that she might start enjoying it and he will have to start having sex with her on a regular basis...
Never mind.


----------



## 269370

Openminded said:


> She offered only from a sense of obligation.


That's HIS interpretation.



Openminded said:


> That's not what he wants.


He doesn't know what he wants - he only knows what he *doesn't* want and that's to have sex with her when she offers.

I better stop otherwise I might get banned...Too emotional for me to respond to this!


----------



## Openminded

inmyprime said:


> That's HIS interpretation.
> 
> 
> 
> He doesn't know what he wants - he only knows what he *doesn't* want and that's to have sex with her when she offers.
> 
> I better stop otherwise I might get banned...Too emotional for me to respond to this!


No, that's MY interpretation as a female who has also experienced rape. 

Whatever it is that he wants and needs from her is not something she can or will provide -- beyond an occasional round of duty sex. Women who don't want sex don't generally understand that duty sex is not something that's very appealing. They feel they're providing sex and that should be enough. They don't get the difference because to them there is no difference.


----------



## 269370

Openminded said:


> No, that's MY interpretation as a female who has also experienced rape.
> 
> Whatever it is that he wants and needs from her is not something she can or will provide -- beyond an occasional round of duty sex. Women who don't want sex don't generally understand that duty sex is not something that's very appealing. They feel they're providing sex and that should be enough. They don't get the difference because to them there is no difference.


I understand your interpretation and where it is coming from - I am not knocking *your* experience and the way you feel about sex. 

I just don't think that either you or me will know what will happen if they do engage in intimacy every once in a while as she clearly wants to (by holding his hands, kisses and offering herself etc).

What makes me furious is the fact that he has shot her down when she offered (and when at her most vulnerable) - and the excuses that god forbid she might start enjoying it!
She opened the door: he slams it in her face. Now she feels like more of a freak!

All I can say is that the way we feel about sex can and does change over time; I know my wife has not been enjoying it as much as she is enjoying it now. Just because she didn't orgasm every time in the past (or sometimes was in pain or uncomfortable or not even into it at all) was no reason to 'put it on a shelf' as a form of punishment. 

Anyway - I am sure they will work something out. Their dynamic is probably different and less caricature-like than it comes across here anyway.


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## john117

inmyprime said:


> Sorry, i very much disagree with this. She clearly offered (and he didn't pester her for it, - quite the opposite - , she took initiative, she may not have orgasmed straight away as H expected her to, but she tried and he turned her down instead of having intercourse). I believe your situations may be similar but not identical. H is doing a lot of it to himself AND he's punishing her, I am afraid.


Once or twice a year is not helping when he wants it, ummm, 3 times a year and she rejects. 

Y'all don't understand this basic part. It demonstrates that she's capable, aware, and yet chooses to ignore and reject.


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## Personal

Holdingontoit said:


> And that is why we are perfectly matched and meant for each other.


Rape, cancer and you being monstrous.

No I don't think you are perfectly matched or meant for each other.

I hope your wife finds the courage to leave you and your extraordinary hatred.


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## john117

Personal said:


> Rape, cancer and you being monstrous.
> 
> No I don't think you are perfectly matched or meant for each other.
> 
> I hope your wife finds the courage to leave you and your extraordinary hatred.


Some people don't want to get over their past. It's comforting.

Cancer was dealt with in a non monstrous way.


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## Holdingontoit

john117 said:


> Some people don't want to get over their past. It's comforting.


Exactly. Neither of us wants to get over our own past. Each of us is willing to tolerate the other not getting over their past.

@Openminded is correct. To H2, offering herself requires such an enormous effort that she can't help but think I should value what she offers even if she lies there silent and unmoving and clearly dreading every instant. I do realize the effort it costs her. But that is precisely why I feel it is wrong to accept it. The cost to her of giving the gift far outweighs the benefit to me from accepting it.

Suppose you make $100,000 per year but you wish you made more. Your spouse is anemic. They know you want more money, so they offer to donate blood every 8 weeks, bribing the nurse to falsify the hemoglobin test so they qualify to donate. Donating makes their anemia even worse. They can hardly get out of bed every morning because they are so weak. Do you say "thanks honey, I really appreciate you donating blood so we can have another $50 every 2 months? Or do you say "thanks honey, that is very generous of you, but I don't want you depriving yourself to that extent. I'll find another way to scrape up the $50."? Yes, it is very loving and generous of your spouse to offer to give blood at such physical and emotional cost. But their willingness to offer does not make it correct for you to accept.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Suppose you make $100,000 per year but you wish you made more. Your spouse is anemic. They know you want more money, so they offer to donate blood every 8 weeks, bribing the nurse to falsify the hemoglobin test so they qualify to donate. Donating makes their anemia even worse. They can hardly get out of bed every morning because they are so weak. Do you say "thanks honey, I really appreciate you donating blood so we can have another $50 every 2 months? Or do you say "thanks honey, that is very generous of you, but I don't want you depriving yourself to that extent. I'll find another way to scrape up the $50."? Yes, it is very loving and generous of your spouse to offer to give blood at such physical and emotional cost. But their willingness to offer does not make it correct for you to accept.


You are changing your stance form the revengeful to the compassionate - whichever way it fits the shoe. I don't buy it!:nono:


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: I do not turn her down for sex to be vengeful and to "give her a taste of her own medicine". Not because I am a great guy, but because I know the process does not operate that way. If I wanted to be vengeful, I would not deprive her of what I want (sex). I would deprive her of what she wants (time, conversation, Acts of Service). So far, I have not done that.

I turn her down because I don't feel good about myself when I accept her offer. Luckily, offers do not occur very often so there isn't much rejection and not much discomfort. 
I wanted to give her a chance to help me feel good about saying "yes". She once again made it clear that she cannot.

I do not hide the fact that I prefer the power dynamic when we aren't having sex to the power dynamic when we are. That preference does affect my willingness to say yes when she offers. It is a component, yes. But it is not the dominant motivation.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: I do not turn her down for sex to be vengeful and to "give her a taste of her own medicine". Not because I am a great guy, but because I know the process does not operate that way. If I wanted to be vengeful, I would not deprive her of what I want (sex). I would deprive her of what she wants (time, conversation, Acts of Service). So far, I have not done that.
> 
> I turn her down because I don't feel good about myself when I accept her offer. Luckily, offers do not occur very often so there isn't much rejection and not much discomfort.
> I wanted to give her a chance to help me feel good about saying "yes". She once again made it clear that she cannot.
> 
> I do not hide the fact that I prefer the power dynamic when we aren't having sex to the power dynamic when we are. That preference does affect my willingness to say yes when she offers. It is a component, yes. But it is not the dominant motivation.


I didn't mean that giving her the taste of her own medicine is being vengeful, I meant that deliberately depriving her of anything she asks (this could include request for intimacy), comes across as vengeful. And when you write that you are actually doing her a favour (because she would hate it), it sounds a little disingenuous.

Look what you have written previously:

"I get too much payoff from making a game of seeing if I can get my wife to stay married to me despite my depression. I figure since she baited and switched me, she can't complain *if I sink some hooks into her in return.* I know being this way is destroying my soul, but when you have spent pretty much every waking moment since toddler-hood unhappy, can't say my soul ever did me much good."

And many, many more of the similarly 'colourful' prose...It's difficult not to read them as being vengeful.

Let me re-phrase: can you imagine any circumstance under which you would be willing to have sex with her (that doesn't involve going back in time) and 'feel good about yourself'?


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Let me re-phrase: can you imagine any circumstance under which you would be willing to have sex with her (that doesn't involve going back in time) and 'feel good about yourself'?


Yes, of course absolutely. If she decided to seek professional help for her PTSD from the rapes, so that she was capable of being "present" while we had sex, I would be very glad to have sex with her. I would even be willing to work out, take pills, etc. to be able to perform better. I would feel good about myself if I did not think I was imposing on her excessively.

Look, it is very hard to convey why I am so opposed to having sex with her. It is 25 years of history. It is all the times we had sex during the early years when I joked with her that she was somewhere else and not there with me. And I didn't know why she always seemed to "disappear" while we were having sex. And even years later when she admitted to having been raped, I still did not understand. Until I read up on rape and its aftermaths. And we discussed whether she had PTSD. And she insisted that the rapes have no impact on her sexuality. And we occasionally had sex. And she kept disappearing. And I remained willing to have sex with her because I was so horny and desperate and inexperienced and selfish and foolish. And eventually (far too long after) I finally connected what I was reading to what she was doing. But that did not happen by itself inside my head. She stopped faking pleasure. We had some more honest conversations and she admitted she feels nothing after lying to the ST and telling her that sex with me was great. The relationship changed as the kids got older and we stopped doing MC and ST and she realized I wasn't going to leave over the absence of sex. So she felt able to be more honest.

You mention me going back in time. Curious. You see my wife wants to go forward in time. She doesn't really want to have sex with me. She wants to have had sex with me. She wants to get to the situation where we had sex so I am happy and she can feel good about herself. Problem is, she can't fake not wanting to live through the time while we are actually having sex. And I won't have sex with someone who doesn't want to be there just so she can say she let me. If you are the cop in a "death by cop" situation, do you feel good about pulling the trigger? Maybe you had to. Maybe you had no choice. Maybe you feel justified because you were forced into it so you don't feel guilty. But do you feel GOOD? No. I have a choice. So I am not pulling the trigger.


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## 269370

What does 'being present' mean to you exactly? 
Have you had sex with a woman (or your wife) where you felt that she was 'present'?

"She doesn't really want to have sex with me. She wants to have had sex with me. She wants to get to the situation where we had sex so I am happy and she can feel good about herself. Problem is, she can't fake not wanting to live through the time while we are actually having sex. And I won't have sex with someone who doesn't want to be there just so she can say she let me."

What makes you think that this is the reason why she wants to have sex with you? Why can't it just be due to her wanting to feel like a normal person once in a while?

Anyway...it's futile. It's impossible to change somebody's chain of thoughts. 

And of course I might be wrong and she does it all deliberately as a ploy to spite you.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> What does 'being present' mean to you exactly? Have you had sex with a woman (or your wife) where you felt that she was 'present'?


My wife tries to block out all sight and sound. She lies there silent and unmoving. She only responds if something hurts. Early in our marriage I thought she was trying to concentrate on the sensations or clear her mind so she could relax and orgasm. Later on I realized she was undergoing PTSD and trying to ignore what was happening to her body. Just as she did during the rapes. Tune it out. That is the point, and why it bothers me so much. If you have never had sex with a rape victim who dissociates, I am not sure I can describe it to you.

Yes, I have had sex with women who seemed "present". Who talked to me during. Who asked to try another position. Who commented on what it felt like. Not much sex and not with many partners. And not many times with any one of them. But enough to say that there is a noticeable difference. Look, like I said, I was relatively inexperienced when we married and trying to "make up for lost time" and the frequent rejections made me desperate not to "look a gift horse in the mouth" on those times my wife actually consented. As I said, it took years (a couple of decades) for me to figure this out because sex was very infrequent and only after much time and reading could I piece this together in hindsight. Maybe if I had had more experience or was better in bed (so that I had known what it was like to be with a woman who actually enjoyed what I was doing), I would have caught on more quickly to the fact that there was something "wrong" when we had sex and not just something different.



> What makes you think that this is the reason why she wants to have sex with you? Why can't it just be due to her wanting to feel like a normal person once in a while?


Look, I get it. She was raped. More than once. She is a sympathetic figure. I felt plenty of sympathy for her when I found out. That is why I stopped pressing to fix the sex problem.

I am sure she does want to feel "normal". Whatever that is. We had plenty of discussions where she said it is "normal" for married people not to have any sex for months on end. But I get that she wants to feel that she isn't "tainted" or "broken". She wants to feel fully functional and that the rapes do not have any impact on her sexuality. I am sorry, but I cannot pretend that is true. Maybe that means I don't love her enough. But like I said, I am not going to pretend that everything is hunky dory any more than she is going to pretend that she enjoys the sex.



> Anyway...it's futile. It's impossible to change somebody's chain of thoughts.


Correct. You will never change my mind on this subject by posting on a discussion forum.



> And of course I might be wrong and she does it all deliberately as a ploy to spite you.


She does not offer sex as a ploy. She offers sex because she loves me and she knows it hurts me that we don't have sex. She offers, as you say, because she wants to feel "normal". And that she is doing her duty as a wife. And so she doesn't feel guilty.
But she does not offer sex because she enjoys it or takes any pleasure from it. She also is not honest about how much discomfort it causes her. Psychological if not physical.


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## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> She does not offer sex as a ploy. She offers sex because she loves me and she knows it hurts me that we don't have sex. She offers, as you say, because she wants to feel "normal". And that she is doing her duty as a wife. And so she doesn't feel guilty.
> But she does not offer sex because she enjoys it or takes any pleasure from it. She also is not honest about how much discomfort it causes her. Psychological if not physical.



Does any of that ever give you solace, ever cause your resentment to fade and let you feel something positive about what you mean to her, and take some sort of pleasure or comfort from it?

I’m not saying it should, or that you should change something about yourself to let it. I’m just curious.

Empathy is a powerful force. Sometimes liberating. Sometimes the opposite.


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## Openminded

Sex, when you don't want it, is generally difficult to get through. There are variations, obviously, but there's often a pattern. You literally count down minutes in your head until it's over. And hope it's very quick. You think of other things. And wait. When it's over, you mentally mark one more off your duty list that you owe your husband. And start dreading the next time -- whenever that might be. 

That's what it can be like.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> My wife tries to block out all sight and sound. She lies there silent and unmoving. She only responds if something hurts. Early in our marriage I thought she was trying to concentrate on the sensations or clear her mind so she could relax and orgasm. Later on I realized she was undergoing PTSD and trying to ignore what was happening to her body. Just as she did during the rapes. Tune it out. That is the point, and why it bothers me so much. If you have never had sex with a rape victim who dissociates, I am not sure I can describe it to you.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I have had sex with women who seemed "present". Who talked to me during. Who asked to try another position. Who commented on what it felt like. Not much sex and not with many partners. And not many times with any one of them. But enough to say that there is a noticeable difference. Look, like I said, I was relatively inexperienced when we married and trying to "make up for lost time" and the frequent rejections made me desperate not to "look a gift horse in the mouth" on those times my wife actually consented. As I said, it took years (a couple of decades) for me to figure this out because sex was very infrequent and only after much time and reading could I piece this together in hindsight. Maybe if I had had more experience or was better in bed (so that I had known what it was like to be with a woman who actually enjoyed what I was doing), I would have caught on more quickly to the fact that there was something "wrong" when we had sex and not just something different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look, I get it. She was raped. More than once. She is a sympathetic figure. I felt plenty of sympathy for her when I found out. That is why I stopped pressing to fix the sex problem.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sure she does want to feel "normal". Whatever that is. We had plenty of discussions where she said it is "normal" for married people not to have any sex for months on end. But I get that she wants to feel that she isn't "tainted" or "broken". She wants to feel fully functional and that the rapes do not have any impact on her sexuality. I am sorry, but I cannot pretend that is true. Maybe that means I don't love her enough. But like I said, I am not going to pretend that everything is hunky dory any more than she is going to pretend that she enjoys the sex.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Correct. You will never change my mind on this subject by posting on a discussion forum.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She does not offer sex as a ploy. She offers sex because she loves me and she knows it hurts me that we don't have sex. She offers, as you say, because she wants to feel "normal". And that she is doing her duty as a wife. And so she doesn't feel guilty.
> 
> But she does not offer sex because she enjoys it or takes any pleasure from it. She also is not honest about how much discomfort it causes her. Psychological if not physical.




I understand all that. A couple of thoughts:
Why do you feel that she is offering you sex because she loves you and thinks you need it? This may be part of it but she also probably feels that she wants to heal, that she wants to be able to experience it and one day perhaps enjoy it. If you think of it from this angle, you might understand that instead helping a person heal (and there’s no reason to suppose that they will not heal in time), you are actively denying her this healing: which is actively in you hands. Then turn it around (in your other posts) and write that she does those things to control you: the source of your problem is your resentment. If you didn’t add a negative spin on anything to do with what your wife does or doesn’t do, you would simply help her and slowly try and try and try when she offers.

Speaking of trying...the way you described your recent sexual encounter: you expect everything to happen straight away ‘she needs to orgasm’ otherwise I’m not touching her.
In what world is this going to work on a rape victim?
You have to approach it from this angle: ‘I realise intimacy is difficult for us and perhaps doesn’t even feel pleasurable but I want to try and practice it with you regularly: if you feel uncomfortable please stop me or tell me what feels good or what doesn’t: I’m not going to be offended.’

Anyway, I know this will fall on deaf ears and nothing is going to change.
I wouldn’t write any of this if she was quite positively completely asexual, didn’t care about sex and didn’t offer and didn’t have any desire to offer but this is clearly not the case. I know that in the past perhaps you did all that but I come back to the point that people change the way they feel about sex and that means they can change the way they feel DURING sex. People heal and can overcome various traumas. What stops them is a partner who has 0 empathy about any of this, who prefer to stay the victim to absolve themselves from any responsibility that doesn’t directly or immediately benefit them. Because that is the easy route. What you are missing is that HER struggles are also YOUR struggles and while it is not your responsibility to make her change what she physically feels, it is absolutely your responsibility to help her heal, especially if she is asking you for it. You belittle her for it by saying ‘thanks but no thanks’.



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## john117

The operative word is regular. As it is, it's like swimming lessons once a year.


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## Holdingontoit

PieceOfSky said:


> Does any of that ever give you solace, ever cause your resentment to fade and let you feel something positive about what you mean to her, and take some sort of pleasure or comfort from it?


Great question. No, not at all. I just feel like a chump.
But it does feed my martyr complex. So it feels RIGHT even if it doesn't feel good. Like I said, I am majorly messed up.

@Openminded: thanks for corroborating what it can be like. So sad that you understand so well. So wonderful that you have reached a place where you can share with others. I hope you find or have found peace.
@inmyprime: your post is very thoughtful and wise. I am glad you posted it. Some day it might help someone else. I hope it does.

But in this case, as you predicted, it is falling on deaf ears. I do not believe the mechanism you describe is operating in my wife. That is what the ST tried to get us to do. H2 did none of it. If H2 is prepared to experiment now, I am only willing to participate with professional help. I am not going to stumble through experimenting on our own.

I understand that is my weakness. I understand I harbor much resentment. I understand it clouds my judgment. But I simply can't offer her what you suggest. I was the wrong person for an unrecovered rape victim to marry. She did not understand until too late that my weakness was not a source of safety. Only a strong and confident man could help guide her through the process. I am not that man. It doesn't feel like fun and play and experimenting to me. It feels like failure. I need the professional intervention so that I can approach the task like assigned homework. Where the goal is to check it off the list. That is the "shield" that enables me to view any session as successful even if it was not pleasurable for either of us.

I know you are right. I know I am wrong. I am going to do it my way anyway. As you knew I would. I am happy to continue this dialogue because it encapsulates the point of this thread. An example and a warning to others. "Here be dragons". Don't go here.


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## Holdingontoit

Oh, and @inmyprime, one more thing. It isn't try and try and try. It is "as often as you like". But as often as she likes is once every few months. If she actually wanted to do it regularly I might be more amenable to your suggestion. But I don't think she is trying to heal and enjoy it. I think when it has been a long time since the last time she feel guilty and wants to do it ONCE to check the task off her "to do" list. Not "keep trying to see if we can find a way for me to enjoy this". Not "I like spending time close to you so it is good for me even if I don't feel anything tingly". Just "can we do this now so I don't feel so guilty, and please make it quick, and then I'll let you know in a few weeks or months when I am feeling guilty again".


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## leon2100

Best of luck. I can't imagine what your life has been like.


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## Openminded

Thank you, H. 

Sex isn't a discussion I like. Or even understand. But I do occasionally try to help others understand what it's like to live a life where sex is dreaded. My marriage had many problems and sex was just one but certainly a very significant one. I would have never married if I had known my issues weren't ever going away but I was very young and clueless all those decades ago. 

I found peace late in life but I did find it. I wish that for you and your wife too.


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## Old Habits

First, I empathize with your situation and also have a long history of intimacy challenges in my marriage. I have been married 35 years and it wasn’t until half way through my marriage I learned my wife was a survivor of CSA (Childhood sexual abuse). The damage CSA can do at a VERY young age is unimaginable to anyone without personal experience and unfortunately there are a lot of people with experience.

While I have researched as much as I can about how CSA can impact survivors, and it is a horrific type of rape, I have not done much research of survivors of rape for older victims. One thing I am reminded of every time I visit a forum is the advice given may not work for people that had their normal development disrupted or completely halted in certain areas and at a critical point in their life. That may or may not apply to older survivors of rape.

Without going into the challenges my wife and I deal with, and we have many, the first thing that jumps out at me is 20,000 posts over 13 years? Do you have any other hobbies or interests other than posting on marriage forums? I would think finding a life balance with other interests that can fulfill you in other ways would add to your quality of life. I for example have coached my kids, taken up photography, golfed, learned to scuba dive to name a few, when my wife chooses not to engage. When possible, I also attempt to find activities we could enjoy together even if intimacy was not possible for her at the time.

Is my math correct that you are on forums multiple times a day, perhaps hours a day, beating a dead horse and getting nothing out of it rather than magnifying the pain? It is apparent nothing ever changes and your time spent has become little more than the hobby you choose to devote your time to.

I do visit forums occasionally when our cycle of bad habits pushes me to the brink, which is how I came across your thread, and with no offense intended and the likelihood I can top your frustration in many areas and for a longer period of time, I would hope you could find other outlets to add some positive quality to your life. There can be value on forums of course, which is why I visit occasionally, but too much of something could be harmful, except maybe sex but I wouldn’t know from experience.

I am sorry for your pain.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> your post is very thoughtful and wise. I am glad you posted it. Some day it might help someone else. I hope it does.



 I know. I gave it a shot anyway. I will try giving it a shot from time to time - I’m glad you don’t get offended anyway. To be honest it’s quite arrogant of me to post this kind of stuff - I don’t know either of you. All I have to go by are your posts - and it’s not a lot. Plus I know that if I just agree with everything you write and be all understanding about it then nothing is ever going to change for sure (and won’t be of any help to anyone else who will see the magnitude of the hopelessness of this situation).
Though I don’t believe it’s as hopeless as you make out (and want it) to be.
I see a lot of how your situation is as my personal nightmare, a personal worst case scenario how a marriage can end up (and how I worry my marriage might end up). I know this will in a weird way probably flatter you  because it’s all about hyperbole here, but it’s true - I have nightmares about it. And who is to say I would be acting any differently if I went through the same processes as you did...
Oh well. Let’s see what the next day holds, in the screwed up world of holdingontoit.




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## john117

Eventually it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Which is, a way of destruction of self and loving ones as part of a coping mechanism. Phyric victory.

Does it work? No idea. Doubt it. all I think I see it does is block enough of the mind's processing power to alleviate the pain.


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## 269370

Some weekend reading:

 http://www.capefearpsych.org/documents/Rape-mensguide.pdf

https://psmag.com/social-justice/lifelong-consequences-rape-96056


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Oh, and @inmyprime, one more thing. It isn't try and try and try. It is "as often as you like". But as often as she likes is once every few months. If she actually wanted to do it regularly I might be more amenable to your suggestion. But I don't think she is trying to heal and enjoy it. I think when it has been a long time since the last time she feel guilty and wants to do it ONCE to check the task off her "to do" list. Not "keep trying to see if we can find a way for me to enjoy this". Not "I like spending time close to you so it is good for me even if I don't feel anything tingly". Just "can we do this now so I don't feel so guilty, and please make it quick, and then I'll let you know in a few weeks or months when I am feeling guilty again".


What was her reaction when you turned her down that time? Was she relieved, happy, angry, surprised, annoyed or something else?
I think if she felt 'guilty', she would come up to you more regularly than that.
My wife comes up to me every 2-3 days. We had 'the talk' some time ago. She knows that that's my frequency. I have more reason to believe that she comes up for sex because of guilt than you do. Because if we didn't have the talk, I have no idea how often she would come up. We used to have a week+ in the past without anything. She got used to it and she seems to enjoy when that happens.
I am not comparing her to a rape victim, that would be foolish, just that the logic (which has an immediate negative spin to anything remotely your wife does or doesn't do) doesn't quite hold. 

I could absolutely just deduce that she's just doing it for me and she even goes so far as making herself orgasm, sometimes several times in a row, just to make her case more believable and hide her true indifference towards me and the sex with me - what a cunning manipulative thing she is! 

I often wrote here that *some* women's libido is more like an echo of their partner's: if the partner gets off, the woman might feel a sense of satisfaction or 'confirmation' just from that (that she is doing something right) and in turn, get turned on as well. (That wouldn't work with a 100% asexual partner). Have you asked your wife if she ever experienced any feelings of sexual arousal? Ever?

After she gave birth, her clit was insensitive for about a year or possibly more (I think that's when I first posted here). I would also use 'tongues' and nothing would come out of it. PIV always left stronger sensations even during that time even though she didn't orgasm. Eventually things got back to 'normal'. 

What I can't quite get my head around: what is so terrible about doing it with her every few months (or weeks: if you asked her?). What is the cost to yourself? Is it _*that*_ demeaning?


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## john117

I'm afraid you don't get it.

In a simple paragraph, it's as meaningless as exercising or dieting once a month and eating KFC the rest of the month and expecting to lose weight.

In the beginning you have these wild plans that are akin to Wiley E Coyote to improve things. You try and try and come back and try some more. You give 100%, 150%. And get back 5%. 

At that point you toss the towel. Or take his approach. Or live your own life. 

It feels rotten. Like it's someone else having sex - generally lousy sex after months - and you watching. It takes little effort to feel like crap afterwards. It's pointless.

You can't make lemonade out of rocks.


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## 269370

No I get it - just don’t want to accept it for some reason.
Plus, he described the trying: it sounded more like throwing random rocks around, expecting them to fall neatly forming a house. Then posting & getting mad at the rocks.
But yes, I’m not in a position to comment - not remotely in similar position.


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## john117

I know the type H2 is. My first love was like that. CSA survivor. And thanks to the lack of HIPPA I knew the story. We were together for a good while thru college in my country. She was a brilliant mind that while impacted by CSA was able to focus on getting things done.

And incredibly self aware. She never married, never dated anyone. Moved to the UK and that was it.


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: She seems very relieved when I turn down her offers. We have gone 15 months without sex surrounding pregnancy. We have gone 9 months without sex years after last child was born. All before she got cancer. I think we have had sex twice since the cancer 2.5 years ago. You say your wife had feeling, stopped having feeling after childbirth, then it eventually returned. As far as I can tell, my wife has any sensation "down there". I don't think our situations are comparable at all.

Friday and Saturday we had some lovely recreation time together. H2 was fun and playful. She kissed me with tongues on the street-corner Friday night. Very nice. Playful Sunday morning. I was licking her (which she professes to hate) but she was squirming and laughing and giggling. But if my hand strayed, the laughing and giggling suddenly stops. Like turning off a switch.

Sorry @inmyprime, I am not wrong about this. She has PTSD. And my continuing in these circumstances would violate my personal code of morality. I wouldn't feel proud or happy that I could, if I pushed hard enough, overcome her PTSD. I would feel disgusted with myself and dirty.

I very much enjoyed Friday night and Saturday with her. I hope to have many days like that with her in the future. I just wish those days could have a "happy ending" rather than getting into bed and waiting for the elephant to sit on my chest. But I won't be shoving that elephant off of me any time soon.


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: Thank you for the links. I have read similar material over the years. I get it. But I can't do it. 

I am not the guy who can help her through this. She needed a guy who was calm and confident and patient. That is not me. I have to much of my own shame and anxiety and messed up thinking about sex to be able to walk with her on the path to healing. Plus now I have all the physical changes of age to deal with. Maybe I could have helped her walk the path if she had told me the truth when we first got married and if she had been willing to do the work back when I was physically able to respond appropriately. At this point, I do not trust her enough to share my fears and hopes and needs with her. Now we have 2 very damaged and broken people needing to be healed. Both were damaged when we met. Now I am much worse.

I knew we were both damaged when we met. I thought we could help each other heal because we were both decent well meaning good hearted people. I was correct about the latter but incredibly wrong about the former. Neither of us was the person that our spouse needed to help them heal. I don't know if I made her problems worse. But I am pretty sure they are not better. I am sure mine are much worse.

Such a shame. Hence the thread. And the warning. Don't go down this path. Don't be fooled. You can both be good people and still be a terrible match.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: She seems very relieved when I turn down her offers. We have gone 15 months without sex surrounding pregnancy. We have gone 9 months without sex years after last child was born. All before she got cancer. I think we have had sex twice since the cancer 2.5 years ago. You say your wife had feeling, stopped having feeling after childbirth, then it eventually returned. As far as I can tell, my wife has any sensation "down there". I don't think our situations are comparable at all.
> 
> Friday and Saturday we had some lovely recreation time together. H2 was fun and playful. She kissed me with tongues on the street-corner Friday night. Very nice.


Tongues....Are you both Lemurs? :grin2: With double-tongues?



Holdingontoit said:


> Playful Sunday morning. I was licking her (which she professes to hate) but she was squirming and laughing and giggling. But if my hand strayed, the laughing and giggling suddenly stops. Like turning off a switch.
> 
> Sorry @inmyprime, I am not wrong about this. She has PTSD. And my continuing in these circumstances would violate my personal code of morality. I wouldn't feel proud or happy that I could, if I pushed hard enough, overcome her PTSD. I would feel disgusted with myself and dirty.
> 
> I very much enjoyed Friday night and Saturday with her. I hope to have many days like that with her in the future. I just wish those days could have a "happy ending" rather than getting into bed and waiting for the elephant to sit on my chest. But I won't be shoving that elephant off of me any time soon.


Can I ask you: would you ever accept if she offered to 'service' you, once in a while?


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## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: Thank you for the links. I have read similar material over the years. I get it. But I can't do it.
> 
> I am not the guy who can help her through this. She needed a guy who was calm and confident and patient. That is not me. I have to much of my own shame and anxiety and messed up thinking about sex to be able to walk with her on the path to healing. Plus now I have all the physical changes of age to deal with. Maybe I could have helped her walk the path if she had told me the truth when we first got married and if she had been willing to do the work back when I was physically able to respond appropriately. At this point, I do not trust her enough to share my fears and hopes and needs with her. Now we have 2 very damaged and broken people needing to be healed. Both were damaged when we met. Now I am much worse.
> 
> I knew we were both damaged when we met. I thought we could help each other heal because we were both decent well meaning good hearted people. I was correct about the latter but incredibly wrong about the former. Neither of us was the person that our spouse needed to help them heal. I don't know if I made her problems worse. But I am pretty sure they are not better. I am sure mine are much worse.
> 
> Such a shame. Hence the thread. And the warning. Don't go down this path. Don't be fooled. You can both be good people and still be a terrible match.


If I’m not being too nosy...

The thing I don’t understand is why you seem determined to avoid addressing your demons, why you seek not to lighten the load on your chest at night. I mean I don’t understand the mechanisms in your mind that come into play, resulting in your resistance to any sort improvement for yourself.

Maybe Ive misunderstood your stance towards the prospect of any and all sort of relief or lightening.

It doesn’t come across as depression (not that I’m an expert of any kind); your thoughts are always well organized and relevant (on this thread and others), and it’s clear you have the capacity and tendency to care about others.

You deserve better for yourself. Do you think better is possible, theoretically?


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## PieceOfSky

It would be nice to have a spouse who is able to help one heal, and actually applies himself or herself to the task. But it’s not the only way, and it’s probably not the surest path.


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## 269370

PieceOfSky said:


> If I’m not being too nosy...
> 
> The thing I don’t understand is why you seem determined to avoid addressing your demons, why you seek not to lighten the load on your chest at night. I mean I don’t understand the mechanisms in your mind that come into play, resulting in your resistance to any sort improvement for yourself.
> 
> Maybe Ive misunderstood your stance towards the prospect of any and all sort of relief or lightening.
> 
> It doesn’t come across as depression (not that I’m an expert of any kind); your thoughts are always well organized and relevant (on this thread and others), and it’s clear you have the capacity and tendency to care about others.
> 
> You deserve better for yourself. Do you think better is possible, theoretically?


I have been thinking about this (why such strong resistance to try and do anything at all to make an improvement towards the 'lightening') but the only explanation I can come up with is that @Holdingontoit must be getting back more (emotionally) from the forums than he would be, from actively trying to fix it (which might involve leaving, which is a viable option too). Or the actual problem is not that unbearable (and the value of having regular sex is not as important as getting the feedback?). 
It's a mystery.


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## PieceOfSky

To be clear, I’m not wondering about doing anything to make sex more likely, or to be open to receiving “sex” on those rare times when she offers. I think I understand that part, living something like that myself.

I just hear someone categorically and consciously opposed to doing anything positive about his suffering, and it occurs to me I don’t understand what his reasons are for that.

HOTI (dang, I just typed that), many of us do the same thing, and in my case I think I know some of the reasons why through the years. I just think, as long as we’re here discussing, it’s an especially relevant part to know. You’re entitled, and it’s none of my business, you’ve made declarations about it, but the different it details escape me.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Can I ask you: would you ever accept if she offered to 'service' you, once in a while?


No. I mean, never say never. But my intention at this point is to turn her down when she offers.

When you sent me the links about rape and its impact on victims, it did not cause me to want to help her heal. It solidified my intention to never be sexual with her again. Like I said, she needs a strong man to help her through this. I am too soft and weak. I empathize too much. I feel bad if I ask. I feel bad if she says yes. I feel bad if we do it. I feel bad if I enjoy it.


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## Holdingontoit

PieceOfSky said:


> Maybe Ive misunderstood your stance towards the prospect of any and all sort of relief or lightening. It doesn’t come across as depression (not that I’m an expert of any kind)


I am very very depressed. Have been all my life. Was treated several times over the decades. Took meds. Nothing made a difference. I am thinking the only thing that has any chance of working is ECT, but as the primary breadwinner I am unwilling to do that prior to retirement due to the risk of losing short term memory and becoming unfit to continue in my job. By the time I get to retirement age (really cannot afford to stop working before 67 or even 70 and still won't come close to replacing my pre-retirement income), might not be worth the cost. It would have been so long since my prior treatment that I'd probably have to spend years in therapy and taking meds before they would approve me for ECT. So it is not relevant to my life for the time being.



> your thoughts are always well organized and relevant (on this thread and others), and it’s clear you have the capacity and tendency to care about others.


Yes, I am very analytical and verbally adept. Just helps me justify not doing anything to help myself or make any chances. I tell my family all the time "book smarts are overrated".



> You deserve better for yourself. Do you think better is possible, theoretically?


Theoretically? Yes. Am I willing to take the risk and pay the cost to get from here to there? No.



PieceOfSky said:


> It would be nice to have a spouse who is able to help one heal, and actually applies himself or herself to the task. But it’s not the only way, and it’s probably not the surest path.


That is why I keep telling @inmyprime that H2 would need to see a professional. I am not equipped to help her. At this point it would hurt our relationship for me to try.


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## Holdingontoit

I have explained this before, will try again. I am on an island in the middle of a swamp. There is enough food and water here to live, but it is very limited and confining. I hate it here, but I would have to swim through piranha / crocodile infested waters to get to the mainland. Many of you might choose to swim anyway, given how unhappy life on the island is. I choose to stay on the island and be miserable but safe.

Staying physically weak and having ED and PE issues makes it EASIER to tolerate a sexless existence. H2 wants me to exercise and eat healthy so I can stay with her longer. She wants me to succeed at my job, make friends, have hobbies I enjoy so I feel less stress so I can live longer and stay with her longer. She gives me the same advice the people here do.

Do you see it now?


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## PieceOfSky

You have a lot to fear.. To be clear, I respect that. On top of that, I think what I see is you are in a double-bind with her — if you do the self-care that might help lift your depression, then she might benefit. Either in reality she’d benefit, or, if she’s prone to complaining about “things you should change”, then in her head shed feel vindicated if indeed you did change. (FWIW, I’m probably projecting based on my experience. But, I’ll share that positive changes I’ve managed to effect turn out to be costly to my wife. She still insists on blaming me for everything, but now she just has fewer defects in me to point out, and I care less and less.)

I don’t fault you for not wanting to swim. I’ve often done the same. I also don’t see a clear path across the water for you. But, I’d like to believe there is be one, but who the **** am I. I am skeptical you have exhausted possible ways to address your depression — what you said about ECT is what we call in my line of work FUD, Fear Uncertainty, and Doubt. There might be other options such as Ketamine. Maybe there is a genuinely competent specialist with a real potential to sort through options emerged since the last time you looked with lesser minds.

I don’t want to be a pest. If you’d ever need any research/legwork from the other shore, feel free to ask.


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## Holdingontoit

The double bind on self-improvement is more of the FUD issue: if I improve myself and she does not respond positively, staying with her becomes more painful. Since I do not expect her to respond positively, and I do not expect to leave, by improving myself all I am doing is causing myself additional frustration.

I do agree that ketamine would be worth trying. So far my buddy the psychiatrist says I don't qualify. I guess I have to become lower functioning to qualify. Talk about a double bind!


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## Holdingontoit

Why the determination not to help myself? Then she wins. I am staying no matter what. If I find a way to be happy despite the absence of sex, then she gets everything she ever wanted. I will not allow that to happen. My resentment is too strong.

I understand I am taking the poison and waiting for her to die. I know she won't be dying (unhappy). But she will be less happy than if I were happy. And she will feel guilty. That is enough for me. I would prefer to be unhappy with her feeling guilty than both of us being happy with her feeling that I happily accept the absence of sex. I do not accept it happily. I will never accept it happily. I will only ever accept it begrudgingly and resentfully.

Like I said, I am a mess. And far and away the wrong person to be her husband.


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## Fozzy

Holdingontoit said:


> Why the determination not to help myself? Then she wins. I am staying no matter what. If I find a way to be happy despite the absence of sex, then she gets everything she ever wanted. I will not allow that to happen. My resentment is too strong.
> 
> I understand I am taking the poison and waiting for her to die. I know she won't be dying (unhappy). But she will be less happy than if I were happy. And she will feel guilty. That is enough for me. I would prefer to be unhappy with her feeling guilty than both of us being happy with her feeling that I happily accept the absence of sex. I do not accept it happily. I will never accept it happily. I will only ever accept it begrudgingly and resentfully.
> 
> Like I said, I am a mess. And far and away the wrong person to be her husband.


H, have you ever actually laid things out to her in exactly those terms? Let her know that your goal is to make sure that you both die unhappy?


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## Holdingontoit

@Fozzy, I am a very particular kind of idiot. Not that kind. And that is not exactly what I am trying to do.

My wife knows that I have never been happy (even before I met her) and that I will likely never be happy (with or without her). She accepts me nonetheless. I am not aiming for her to be unhappy. She wants to be happy and finds ways to achieve her goals. Her guilt does not prevent her from being happy with her life in general. It is just a tinge at the edges. I live for that tinge. If I tried to make her unhappy in general and succeeded, she would leave me. I do not want her to leave me.

Do not try to understand or make sense of this. It makes no sense. That is the whole point of this thread. Don't stay past the point where it drives you batty. You might not be able to find your way back. You might not even want to.


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## PieceOfSky

H,

You are making life-defining choices based upon predictions about what would be her behavior and hers if you were not very very depressed. Yet, it sounds like you’ve never been other than very very depressed. So, how is it you know how she’d feel, or how you’d feel?

No offense, but everything you say to justify not addressing your depression sounds like rationalization to the n’th degree. Your depression is a *****, and will make up any reason it has to in order for you to not threaten it’s existance.

Let me try a counter example, from my own actually lived experience. Everything that I have done to lift my depression and center myself has not made my wife happy. It has not made me happier to endure my sexless marriage. It has led to her having less and less leverage to affect me, and given her MORE to be aware of and feel guilty about; it is easier for her to be defensive and evasive, when I have less energy and clarity of thought.

Even if you found relief from that horrible burden of depression, what makes you think she would have to know? You could hide your relief from her, and use your new found energy to manipulate her to feel just the right amount of unhappiness — not too much, lest she leave, not too little, less she win.

So, respectfully and earnestly, when you say she’d win if your depression was relieved, well, I think that’s your scary-ass depression wagging the dog.

I sympathize with you, even if you wouldn’t want me to, because I think it is depression that has your balls in a vice, not her. And you are, as anyone would be, scared to make a move. So you rationalize standing very very still.


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## Holdingontoit

@PieceOfSky: you have it pretty much exactly correct. My depression will not allow me to consider major changes. Not let me pick nits.

H2 does not win if my depression is relieved. She wins if I accept that I can be happy despite the sexlessness. And I am most assuredly not prepared to accept that.

No, if my depression lifts I would not be happy. In order to lift my depression, I would have to leave my wife. Or maybe the mechanism is that if my depression lifted, I would feel obliged to leave my wife. Which is chicken and which is egg? Hard to tell. Anyway, I cannot imagine my depression lifting and me staying with my wife. I do not want to feel obliged to leave my wife. So I will take no action to lift my depression. Yes, I intend to rationalize standing very still. That is my goal in life. Not to rock the very carefully balanced boat. Lifting my depression would be a tremendous shock to the system. I will never allow that to happen.

Have I not been clear that I am not aiming for my own happiness? I am not even aiming to prevent hers. I just want to stay married to her and have her feel twinges of guilt. That way, the power in our relationship is not so out of balance. I desire her. She does not desire me. That leads to an inherent power imbalance. I have higher earnings than her, but she has a legal entitlement to half my earnings if we split. Again, power imbalance in her favor because I fear the split more than she does. The guilt balances things out quite nicely. I am sure that is all rationalization, but a very comfortable one for me.

As I said, we had one of our best weekends ever this past weekend. She kissed me on the mouth with tongues while standing in public where other people could see! She held my hand while walking through the city. Maybe not much for a grown man to aspire to but completely missing for most of my life (before her as well). Maybe others would view it as crumbs but I have been starving my entire life. I am not throwing away the crumbs in the hope that there is more available elsewhere. Yet I will not pretend that the crumbs are more than they are. Sympathize that I am willing to settle for crumbs. But do not imagine that I will ever indulge my desire for more. As you say, fear runs my life. Ever it has. And ever it will.


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## PieceOfSky

Those crumbs are the best part. An affirmation something meaningful exists. I live without them in public and at home. Not even a loving touch. And when I leave, I hope I make it clear it’s not sex that I miss, it is having a warm body next to mine, one that is glad to feel mine in so many ways, and has eyes that light up to see her and I more clearly, rather than a head that seeks cover in the sand. Sex is far from everything. It’s not what I miss.

Depression and unhappiness are not the same thing. You were depressed before you met her, most likely with a significant physical/biochemical component. You could address THAT without having to leave her. Doesn’t mean you’d be happy. Doesn’t mean you’d feel compelled to leave her. To me, positing otherwise is your depression’s way of chaining you to the status quo. It’s FUD-mongering at its best.

The thing is, there is not a permanent miracle cure for depression. If say you tried ketamine, and it made you feel uncomfortably good, it would be easy to make yourself depressed again. (Forgoing follow up doses, or ignoring all sorts of self care, sabotaging your mental health — there’s lots of ways).

You have made it clear you are aiming to continue sabatoging your mental health and your marriage. You are aware that negatively effects your wife, at least by the twinges you are shooting for. What’s confusing is you also make clear you care about other people, your wife included, and feel some pleasure (this past weekend), and clearly you have goals that are important to you and I’d guess give you some satisfaction. You are also very very depressed. So, when you assert you want the status quo, for FUD-drenched reasons that don’t add up to me, I hear the words but believe they are coming from Depression, not you. (Sorry if that annoys you or seems dismissive. We don’t need to continue discussing if you don’t want to.)

You are aiming to stay married, and keep power balances present — being mentally healthy is not incompatible with that.


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## Holdingontoit

I very much appreciate this dialogue. I wish I could agree with you.



PieceOfSky said:


> You are aiming to stay married, and keep power balances present — being mentally healthy is not incompatible with that.


You believe it is not incompatible. I believe it is. I believe the depression is what enables me to stay with her.

I married her knowing we were both wounded. Not healthy. I thought I knew the events in her childhood and upbringing that created her wounds. I thought I could help her deal with those issues. I thought that if I helped her with her issues, she would help me with mine. I thought together we could heal each other and share a deep love based on overcoming obstacles together. I was completely wrong on all counts.

We are both still wounded. I now know I cannot help her with her issues. And she cannot help me with mine. If I got treated for my depression, and the treatment worked, I would leave her. I know how much resentment I hold in my heart. Only my fear and weakness keeps me from acting on that. I have to maintain my fear and weakness. Otherwise I would feel compelled to blow everything up. I don't wish to do that to my kids.


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## kag123

Why are you afraid to leave her? 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

My kids would be devastated.

I have to give her half my wealth and income. I am relatively old to start over financially. Not much working life left to earn it back. I can't afford to retire now. How do I retire on half?

I don't want to be alone. H2 is perfectly pleasant to go to lunch or dinner or a movie with. Yes, I might be able to find someone to do that with (if I pay - please see the paying for dates thread). But what is the point? I am not going to find someone to have sex with. And even if I did, I can't perform and she would be disappointed and dump me. So I have devastated my kids and given away half my finances just to live along in a rented apartment somewhere?

Yes, I know you will say I am catastrophizing. But that was my life as a young single guy with theoretical prospects back in the day. You are going to try and convince me that I will do better at making a life for myself as a 60 year old beaten down financially strapped divorced guy than I did when I was a 20-something up and comer with spending money available? You will never convince me of that. 

Is that the depression talking? Probably. I have been depressed for my entire conscious life. There is no "me" to talk outside the depression. There is no "before I was depressed". There is no me separate from being depressed. This is me. We are one and the same person. You want me to get rid of the depression? I am terrified that there will be nothing else left. 

My entire sense of self is tied up in the depression. If I let go of that, I am facing a total breakdown. Becoming completely non-functional. Lying in bed in the fetal position unable to move, go to work, bathe, etc. I live paycheck to paycheck. I have credit card debt. I have a mortgage. I can NOT get off the treadmill for any length of time. I cannot afford to take that risk.


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## Fozzy

Holdingontoit said:


> My entire sense of self is tied up in the depression. If I let go of that, I am facing a total breakdown. Becoming completely non-functional. Lying in bed in the fetal position unable to move, go to work, bathe, etc. I live paycheck to paycheck. I have credit card debt. I have a mortgage. I can NOT get off the treadmill for any length of time. I cannot afford to take that risk.


OK, this part I DO think you are catastrophizing. The only way that getting mentally healthier is going to jeopardize your earning prospects is if you're a stand-up comedian.

Depression warps your sense of reality. It's like looking at the world through a fun-house mirror. I agree with Piece of Sky--your judgment in matters pertaining to yourself is fundamentally flawed because of that warping effect. I've seen you offer decent advice to other people, so I know the rational part of you works, but I think it breaks down when you try to apply it to yourself because of that effect.


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## Holdingontoit

@Fozzy: Yes and no. Yes, if I were less depressed I would function better at work, take more risks, have more success and earn more money. If I can endure the transition and continue to do more or less what I do now. There is also a chance that I decide I hate this career, regret every choice I made for the past 57 years, feel obliged to do something different, and am paralyzed by the choice of what the heck I ought to do instead. You may believe that the odds are very good that the former will occur and that the latter is not a realistic risk. You are probably correct.

But after years of therapy and AD meds, none of which made a darn bit of difference, I am not so sure that I can navigate the transition smoothly. I am very very messed up and have been for my entire life. I started therapy as a teenager. That was 40 years ago. Depression is part and parcel of my personality. You may think that I can step out from under the dark cloud and a fully functional person will emerge. I am not so sure that what remains when you remove the dark cloud is functional. Mushrooms do not thrive in full sunlight.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Why the determination not to help myself? Then she wins. I am staying no matter what. If I find a way to be happy despite the absence of sex, then she gets everything she ever wanted. I will not allow that to happen. My resentment is too strong.


In other words, you are happy by being unhappy. Is it about right? In which case she still wins under your definition, no?:scratchhead:



Holdingontoit said:


> I understand I am taking the poison and waiting for her to die. I know she won't be dying (unhappy). But she will be less happy than if I were happy. And she will feel guilty. That is enough for me. I would prefer to be unhappy with her feeling guilty than both of us being happy with her feeling that I happily accept the absence of sex. I do not accept it happily. I will never accept it happily. I will only ever accept it begrudgingly and resentfully.


But you would also not accept her 'servicing' your sexual needs either which seems to indicate to me that it's currently more important for you to maintain and nurture this 'unhappy' dynamic (with which both of you seem to be happy, paradoxically) than actually getting your apparent needs met. Perhaps the need to resent her outweighs the need to be sexually satisfied?
Has it always been this way or is it a product of years of sexual under-nourishment?


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## Holdingontoit

Fabulous questions. I wish I had good answers.

I would not say I am "happy" about being unhappy. I prefer being unhappy to her "winning".

I have never been sexually satisfied, so I am guessing I have what would be viewed objectively as a very weak need for it. My inept approaches toward women combined with my shame at my poor performances on those rare occasions when I managed to get one into bed put a huge damper on my desire to act on what seemed subjectively to be a strong desire to be sexual. My fear has always been stronger than my desires. Not just about sex.

As for willingness to accept "servicing", I would say this has changed over time. Several factors. I know more about rape and how much it "costs" her to service me. I am less horny. I continue to perform poorly, and ED is even worse than PE on the shame scale. I mean, what is the point of her "servicing" me if neither of us is going to have an orgasm, I am going to end up frustrated, and she is going to end up feeling like she does no turn me on?

I know you might be tempted to ask if it helps me feel loved that she offers. Yes, I intellectually understand that it is a major "gift" on her part to offer to allow me to use her body. Back when I used to enjoy myself, and orgasm, I used to appreciate her offer and felt very loved on those occasions when she made herself available. Now, no, I do not feel loved when she offers. I think that is a product of being under-nourished for so long. It is too little, too late. I don't feel good about myself. I don't feel loved. I just feel ashamed and frustrated and angry and sad.

I know that what I want is almost impossible for an unrecovered rape victim to provide. And I know that my rejecting her offers of what she can provide is not helping our relationship get better. But I cannot bring myself to choose otherwise.


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: just wanted to say you have a wonderful tone and online manner. You nudge, but in a very gentle and supportive way. If you don't do this professionally, you should think about it. Your input is very much appreciated.


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## Holdingontoit

I am thinking of taking a new job. New location. Much more pressure to perform at a high level. Would involve a dramatic change in lifestyle. I would be commuting 75 miles daily and likely would use Airbnb to find overnight accommodations twice or three times a week. Financially stressful as the salary would not enable me to rent an apartment locally, at least for the first year or two. But much more financial upside than at my current firm. And if I succeed, would finally not feel like a failure at my career.

Basically, I am blowing up my comfortable life to force myself to get out of my funk. I can't believe I am even considering this.


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## john117

At your age and overall situation job stability trumps income. Period.

In a career you get to balance income, stability, and interesting work. Most of the time it's 1 or 2 of 3. Meaning a stable job is rarely interesting or pays well, etc.


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## Holdingontoit

But what is stability when my current firm seems financially unsteady? 

Maybe I am stable here as long as the firm continues, but if the firm implodes I could be forced to look for work at a time not of my choosing and at an age where jobs are scarce. New firm means I do not have a decade of personal relationships, but they are more financially stable as a firm. So not as stable personally but more stable in the larger scheme.

So which is "more stable"?


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## john117

Well, that's different. 

If the new firm is more stable it could pay off to join. But can you do the job? And, are you hired simply to be the first convenient warm body to be cut?


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## Holdingontoit

I am being hired to do job X. X is a low status, low pay job (relatively within new firm, in absolute terms a high salary if you did not work in big city).

I can do job X. I am not a national expert in X but I am competent.

I can also do Y and Z. I am quite good at Y and national expert at Z. New firm has large untapped demand for Y and undetermined demand for Z. I believe I can handle their needs for X while building a practice at Y and exploring the level of internal demand for Z. Hard work for a couple of years but if it works out I could easily double or triple my income. Triple my income would be average partner compensation at new firm. Triple my income would be more than max partner income at my current firm. Inconceivable I could build such a large practice here because we mostly do X, Y and Z, there are other people here who also do Y and Z, and we don't do much else. So there aren't many internal referrals and those that exist go to others inside my current firm who outrank me. At my new firm I would be the only person who does X at the local office and the only person who does Y or Z nationally so I would get all the internal referrals for Y and Z.

Doe that make any sense?


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## MEM2020

After a long, dark, cold night
Comes first light

This is the most inspiring post I’ve seen in a long, long time. 



Holdingontoit said:


> I am being hired to do job X. X is a low status, low pay job (relatively within new firm, in absolute terms a high salary if you did not work in big city).
> 
> I can do job X. I am not a national expert in X but I am competent.
> 
> I can also do Y and Z. I am quite good at Y and national expert at Z. New firm has large untapped demand for Y and undetermined demand for Z. I believe I can handle their needs for X while building a practice at Y and exploring the level of internal demand for Z. Hard work for a couple of years but if it works out I could easily double or triple my income. Triple my income would be average partner compensation at new firm. Triple my income would be more than max partner income at my current firm. Inconceivable I could build such a large practice here because we mostly do X, Y and Z, there are other people here who also do Y and Z, and we don't do much else. So there aren't many internal referrals and those that exist go to others inside my current firm who outrank me. At my new firm I would be the only person who does X at the local office and the only person who does Y or Z nationally so I would get all the internal referrals for Y and Z.
> 
> Doe that make any sense?


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## john117

Is there a reason the new firm does not do Y or Z and are they likely to actually expand into those areas?

What capital costs are there? Are the client bases the same? Whom needs convincing at the local or home office?

Are we talking accounting or law or some other esoteric profession?

The money is good but the payola will occur only if new firm expands.


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## Holdingontoit

I turned down the new job. No support person. I do not have enough gas left in the tank to do the marketing tasks to bring in work and then do the work all by myself.

The depression wins again.


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## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> I turned down the new job. No support person. I do not have enough gas left in the tank to do the marketing tasks to bring in work and then do the work all by myself.
> 
> The depression wins again.


More, the practical aspects win again. I've had offers from major west coast places to work there but the role is not hands on design work, more like, sheepherder of offshore resources, working 60 hours a week for the privilege of working at such and such. I'm unfortunately known to recruiters because of my work at CES every year, so.....

Now if Jony Ive or Mark Z or Elon call... Maybe .


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## Holdingontoit

Could be.

Yesterday was a bad day. If I took the new job, we would have to move at about 2 years in. So we were talking about the gargantuan job of cleaning up the house and getting it ready for sale. Must redo the kitchen as the formica is peeling off the outside of the cabinets. While discussing this over Thanksgiving, DS23, bless his heart, said that if we have to redo the kitchen to sell the house, we should redo it now so his Mom can enjoy the nice kitchen for a couple of years. So Sunday we went to the discount kitchen place to look around and get a feel for price. H2, to her credit, did not ask for upgrades. Just standard material cabinets and countertops. Mostly leaving appliances where they are. Cost to remove existing cabinets and install new ones cam to about $15,000. Then we need to pull up the 4 layers of plastic flooring and put down one new layer. Get an electrician to rewire the overhead lights. Figure $20 - $25,000 for the entire project. No way we can afford that when we are carrying over $75,000 of credit card debt. H2 was understandably close to tears that I "pulled the rug out from under her". Very sad day for her. I was sympathetic but firm.

Today we discussed that we are probably 3 years away from paying down all the credit card debt. I suggested we live more frugally. She feels we live as "downscale" as she can imagine. And her working 7 days a week helps because she has no time to hang with her wealthy "ladies who lunch" friends who would encourage her to go to fancy lunches and then go shopping. Which is true and to her is a sacrifice for the family.

I gave her a budget to buy new couches (ours have rips in the fabric) as a "consolation prize" since she isn't getting a new kitchen.

I don't satisfy her any more than she satisfies me. Balanced and fair. Just as I like it.


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## MEM2020

Your only priority ought be the credit card debt. 

And why would you add debt and risk via kitchen remodel right before taking a new job? 

When my company IPO’d, I was locked up for 6 months. Could not sell a single share during the lock up. M2 wanted to remodel the bathroom. I told her - end of the lock up I will sell some shares and you can remodel however you like. 

She only complained about waiting once. I was unmoved. She waited. 





Holdingontoit said:


> Could be.
> 
> Yesterday was a bad day. If I took the new job, we would have to move at about 2 years in. So we were talking about the gargantuan job of cleaning up the house and getting it ready for sale. Must redo the kitchen as the formica is peeling off the outside of the cabinets. While discussing this over Thanksgiving, DS23, bless his heart, said that if we have to redo the kitchen to sell the house, we should redo it now so his Mom can enjoy the nice kitchen for a couple of years. So Sunday we went to the discount kitchen place to look around and get a feel for price. H2, to her credit, did not ask for upgrades. Just standard material cabinets and countertops. Mostly leaving appliances where they are. Cost to remove existing cabinets and install new ones cam to about $15,000. Then we need to pull up the 4 layers of plastic flooring and put down one new layer. Get an electrician to rewire the overhead lights. Figure $20 - $25,000 for the entire project. No way we can afford that when we are carrying over $75,000 of credit card debt. H2 was understandably close to tears that I "pulled the rug out from under her". Very sad day for her. I was sympathetic but firm.
> 
> Today we discussed that we are probably 3 years away from paying down all the credit card debt. I suggested we live more frugally. She feels we live as "downscale" as she can imagine. And her working 7 days a week helps because she has no time to hang with her wealthy "ladies who lunch" friends who would encourage her to go to fancy lunches and then go shopping. Which is true and to her is a sacrifice for the family.
> 
> I gave her a budget to buy new couches (ours have rips in the fabric) as a "consolation prize" since she isn't getting a new kitchen.
> 
> I don't satisfy her any more than she satisfies me. Balanced and fair. Just as I like it.


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## Holdingontoit

I married her because I thought that would get me access to her incredible body. She married me because she thought that would get her access to a rich man's money. We were both wrong.

She is frustrated that she is not living the life she thought she would be living by marrying me. My feelings are well known here. Suggesting that either of us should be rational in dealing with our disappointment is a fool's errand.

But I agree in principal that we should focus on paying down the credit card debt. We paid down about $25,000 this year. I am hoping to pay off that much or more in 2018. Plus more actively manage the interest rates on the balances. We do not need a new kitchen more than we need to pay down the debt.


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## Fozzy

Could you not sand and refinish the cabinets rather than replacing them?


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## Holdingontoit

Fozzy said:


> Could you not sand and refinish the cabinets rather than replacing them?


Great idea in general but unworkable for us:

1. Cabinets are formica over pasteboard, not wood, so careful peeling off, measuring, cutting and gluing is needed). Even if I were willing to attempt this, my wife would reject the suggestion out of hand. She does not believe I could do a suitably "professional" job. She fears the cabinets would end up looking worse than before I attempted to refinish them.

2. I am OK about being handy when it comes to functionality. I can rewire a switch or receptacle or light fixture, change the guts of a toilet, add roller wheels to the bottom of a coffee table, etc. But I am not skilled at aesthetics / finishing work. So if I did it myself, wife might be correct that it wouldn't look great.

3. She might be able to handle the careful finishing work to make sure the edges are exactly smooth . She would say redoing the cabinets is too big a job for her to undertake herself. It would require us to work together on the project. And we do NOT work well together. We do zero home improvement projects as a team because we drive each other crazy. So if there are tasks to do, we divide and conquer. Individually. Never together. That is yet another area where our marriage is suboptimal.

Just as I would rather resent her for not providing sex than attempt to fix the problem, she would rather resent me for not having enough money to pay someone else to build and install new cabinets than work to make our existing cabinets look nicer. I told you that we are perfectly matched!


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## anonmd

There is professional refacing, looks like new but about 1/2 the price.


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## Holdingontoit

@anonmd. Thanks. I will look into it.

She hates the bottom 1" strip of wood that has a lip that acts as a handle for the doors and drawers. I will see about getting new 1" strips of flat wood and then screwing knobs or handles into those strips. She might like that OK and that is a task I can see me accomplishing suitably.


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## FieryHairedLady

I have read most of this thread weeks ago. It is a very sad tale for both of you. I thought that was really awesome how you helped her through her breast cancer.

"I married her because I thought that would get me access to her incredible body. She married me because she thought that would get her access to a rich man's money. We were both wrong."

Having a spouse as l/d as her is definately a romance killer, and potentially a love killer. But in the beginning surely you married her for the total package I hope? Body/mind/soul/personality/love/companionship? Not just for her body?

I will interject in here I am not a fan of women marrying a man just for his money. It should be the total package as well.


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## Holdingontoit

Inloveforeverwithhubby said:


> But in the beginning surely you married her for the total package I hope? Body/mind/soul/personality/love/companionship? Not just for her body?


Yes, she was the total package. College graduate. Employed in a professional position. Lived in her own apartment. Same religion. Seemed she would be a devoted mother (and she has been). We liked the same foods (still do). Had a large circle of friends. Lots and lots of things I liked about her. Of course, it did not hurt that she is very pretty and has an incredible body and at the beginning (before we got engaged and moved in together) she was willing to have sex with me.


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## MEM2020

Holding,

Letting her put you both in harms way financially does not make her love you more. In fact, quite the opposite. 

Does she have a job? 




Holdingontoit said:


> I married her because I thought that would get me access to her incredible body. She married me because she thought that would get her access to a rich man's money. We were both wrong.
> 
> She is frustrated that she is not living the life she thought she would be living by marrying me. My feelings are well known here. Suggesting that either of us should be rational in dealing with our disappointment is a fool's errand.
> 
> But I agree in principal that we should focus on paying down the credit card debt. We paid down about $25,000 this year. I am hoping to pay off that much or more in 2018. Plus more actively manage the interest rates on the balances. We do not need a new kitchen more than we need to pay down the debt.


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## FieryHairedLady

Ok, sorry the marriage hasn't worked out better for you.


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## MJJEAN

Holdingontoit said:


> @anonmd. Thanks. I will look into it.
> 
> She hates the bottom 1" strip of wood that has a lip that acts as a handle for the doors and drawers. I will see about getting new 1" strips of flat wood and then screwing knobs or handles into those strips. She might like that OK and that is a task I can see me accomplishing suitably.


Depending what type of refacing job you choose, the doors on cabinets and the drawer fronts might be replaced to eliminate that strip of wood.

How much of the total cost is grunt work and don't you have adult kids? See where I'm going? Doing the demo and debris removal yourselves could save you thousands.

If you're really comfortable with simple electrical work, arrange to do the fixture and switch plate installs yourself. That's usually a few hundred off. More if you purchase your own fixtures and plates and more still if you hunt down flea market or Craigslist bargains to refinish.

Were you looking at stone counter tops? If so, there are much cheaper alternatives that are very nice. I'm partial to concrete (stained or unstained), recycled glass, and faux stone, myself. Less expensive and no/low maintenance.

There are a lot of ways to lower the cost of reno and it seems to matter so much to everyone that I hope you can make it affordable sooner rather than later.


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## Holdingontoit

@MJJEAN: great suggestions for another couple. My doing that level of work in our kitchen is simply not going to happen.

Yes, we have grown kids. One lives 2000 miles away. The other lives 3000 miles away. One sibling who lives 100 miles away and neither she nor her husband do that kind of work. He hires an electrician to replace light bulbs. I was raised in a similar household, and am proud to have learned to do small jobs. I do not have the confidence or a mentor to help me take on a job as large as pulling out the kitchen cabinets and putting up new ones. What I know to do I was taught by my father in law, who has passed. And when he was alive lived 1500 miles away.

So while I appreciate all the suggestions for "how you could redo all the cabinets and counter-tops for less money", I cannot imagine taking on that size of job. The limit of my ambition is to pull off the 1" wood strip at the bottom of cabinets, cut new flat strips to size, paint them, glue them on, and then put handles onto the new strips of wood. And I am willing to empty the cabinets one at a time and wash them so they aren't dirty.

Yes, I realize that a grown man ought to be able to pull cabinets off the wall, patch or replace the sheet rock, and hang new cabinets. I am not that man.

Maybe if our marriage had been more satisfying to me, I might overcome my fear and insecurity and tell myself "I know I can, I know I can" and take on the job and push myself to do it so well that H2 would be thrilled with the end result. As it is, I am content to give in to my fear and insecurity and accept that any job I did would probably be crappy and ugly and just be a waste of time and money because H2 would not be pleased with the end result. Maybe if H2 were more supportive and had confidence I could do a good job replacing the cabinets, then our marriage would have been more satisfying to me. As it is, she doesn't think I can replace the cabinets and she is content to let me agree with her. And I am content that she does not get new cabinets and that neither of us is particularly happy with the outcome.

Anyone who has read my thread from the beginning should know that I am not of a mind to "fight to the death" or "move heaven and earth" to get what I want in life. Much less to get H2 what she wants. I am sure my shortcomings in that area (motivation, ambition, persistence) are part of what H2 finds less than wonderful about me. I have no intention of changing at this late date.


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## naiveonedave

IMO, you would be way better off financially to D. And you could actually find someone to fool around with. 

This thread is depressing, because the answer is obvious but you won't even consider it.


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## Livvie

Isn't the massive credit card debt because she spends with abandon anyway? Maybe she'd have a new kitchen right now if she'd reined in her spending these past years.


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## Holdingontoit

naiveonedave said:


> IMO, you would be way better off financially to D. And you could actually find someone to fool around with.


Not at my age (late 50s). We are married over 20 years. She gets half of what I make. For life. I can barely live on 100% of what I make. How am I going to live on half and find someone else to fool around with? I can't afford to retire on what little we have saved. How am I ever going to retire on half?



> This thread is depressing, because the answer is obvious but you won't even consider it.


Correct.

The point of this thread is to be depressing, so other guys won't make the same bad decisions I made.


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## Holdingontoit

Livvie said:


> Isn't the massive credit card debt because she spends with abandon anyway? Maybe she'd have a new kitchen right now if she'd reined in her spending these past years.


I am complicit in the spending. She wants to visit the kids, I approve the plane tickets and hotel rooms. She wants to help DS23 drive his car 2000 miles from college to his job. With stops along the way at attractions to break up the driving and make memories. I approve the hotels and excursions.

We did expensive family vacations every year the kids were in high school. When they were smaller I took them camping. Tents. Cook over the fire. H2 doesn't go for that sort of thing. So I know how to travel inexpensively. But I gave in to the travel with the kids "before they leave home".

Yes, married to someone else, I would have spent less. But unlike the early years of our marriage, lately she does not hide or lie about the spending. She just constantly presents me with opportunities to spend, and eventually she always wears me down into approving something or another. My fault for not putting my foot down.

So I stew and fret and resent. And then I explode at something ridiculously expensive. And I get my way on one big thing. But then 10 other smaller things get by me.


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## kag123

Does she work? If not, why?

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## Holdingontoit

Yes, she works 7 days a week. Hourly. For minimum wage. She is great at her job and loves it. She makes about 20k per year. She went back to school while the kids were in high school to get a paraprofessional certificate. She could make much more with a full time job in her field. But she loves her job and likes the flexibility of not working 9-5 or long shifts. She has unlimited vacation flexibility to visit the kids. After the cancer, she is not interested in a salaried job. I don't blame her. Even though she works every day the scheduling works for her.


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## Holdingontoit

Plus she works both Saturday and Sunday starting early in the morning, so we don't have that awkward pause about getting out of bed. She has to go to work. On weekdays, I do. Makes it easier for me to deal with no snuggling.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, she works 7 days a week. Hourly. For minimum wage. She is great at her job and loves it. She makes about 20k per year. She went back to school while the kids were in high school to get a paraprofessional certificate. She could make much more with a full time job in her field. But she loves her job and likes the flexibility of not working 9-5 or long shifts. She has unlimited vacation flexibility to visit the kids. After the cancer, she is not interested in a salaried job. I don't blame her. Even though she works every day the scheduling works for her.


I'm glad she has a job she enjoys. I'm sure that helps her happiness a bit! I guess I don't understand though...If she's choosing to make less money because she enjoys the flexibility and enjoys the work she is doing right now at this pace, doesnt she understand that the trade off is that she has less money to spend? 

Her decision to make less or have a flexible job isn't wrong, IMO, it's just a choice she is making that has a trade off. You can't have it both ways. 



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## Holdingontoit

kag123 said:


> I'm glad she has a job she enjoys. I'm sure that helps her happiness a bit!


Thanks. Yes, she really likes her job and the people she works with.



> I guess I don't understand though...If she's choosing to make less money because she enjoys the flexibility and enjoys the work she is doing right now at this pace, doesnt she understand that the trade off is that she has less money to spend?


The whole point of marrying me was that she wasn't going to have to make any trade-offs financially. I was supposed to be able to afford everything she wanted without her having to work. I have not held up my end of that bargain.



> Her decision to make less or have a flexible job isn't wrong, IMO, it's just a choice she is making that has a trade off. You can't have it both ways.


Why not? If you are a beautiful woman, you can marry a rich guy and not make any financial trade off. She just made a mistake in who she "sold" herself to. She should have married someone who could afford to buy her the things she wants.

Of course, when a beautiful woman marries an ugly guy for his money, she has to maker other trade-offs.


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## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> The whole point of marrying me was that she wasn't going to have to make any trade-offs financially. I was supposed to be able to afford everything she wanted without her having to work. I have not held up my end of the bargain.


Has she directly said this to you? 

This sounds like your depression creeping in...

Did she work when you married her? Did you have some kind of big shot job or piles of cash that you now no longer have? 

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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Thanks. Yes, she really likes her job and the people she works with.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The whole point of marrying me was that she wasn't going to have to make any trade-offs financially. I was supposed to be able to afford everything she wanted without her having to work. I have not held up my end of that bargain.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not? If you are a beautiful woman, you can marry a rich guy and not make any financial trade off. She just made a mistake in who she "sold" herself to. She should have married someone who could afford to buy her the things she wants.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, when a beautiful woman marries an ugly guy for his money, she has to maker other trade-offs.




You are being a touch disingenuous, me thinks. She had plenty of time to discover ‘the truth’ and leave you for a guy with a bit more greens!  she didn’t. Is it too much to imagine she might perhaps like you a bit?  or are you worried you might ‘owe her’, if she did?


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## Holdingontoit

@kag123: Before we married she worked as a high power professional and when we got engaged our earnings were roughly equal. When we got married and moved, she did not find a job in her field and volunteered. That turned into a low paying job for a charity (she is amazingly competent and every place she has ever worked or volunteered has loved her - not the case for me). When she got close to delivering our first child, she stopped working. When our kids were in high school she went back to school to get a paraprofessional certificate and worked part time in her field. When DD20 graduated high school, the plan was for H2 to get a full time job in her field. Then H2 got cancer. Now that she is in remission she works part time.

I attended grad school at a very prestigious university. I think H2 expected that my academic credentials would turn into more financial success than has been the case. Furthermore, my father was quite successful in business and lived a very nice lifestyle around the time we got married (better / higher than I lived growing up or than he has lived lately). Since we got married he retired and made several very unsuccessful investments. So she thought he had more wealth than he has now. Between my not earning as much as she expected and my dad losing much of his savings, we do not live the life that my parents lived and that she imagined she would live if she married me.

@inmyprime: you are correct that for many years it has been obvious that I would not be financially as successful as she thought before we got married. I do think she likes me. But we have 2 kids who adore me. I am not sure how much is her objectively liking / loving me and how much is her realization that the kids would never forgive her for dumping me over lack of financial success. I know that DS23 inwardly questions why we got together in the first place and why we stay together. Well, he understand why I wanted his hot Mom but he doesn't understand why his Mom settled for me. He never knew the me that had more upside 25 years ago. DD20 is, as far as I can tell, oblivious to the friction between me and H2.

I am very kind and considerate and complimentary to H2. Her friends all wish their husbands spoke to / treated them the way they see me speak to and treat H2. So H2 does get something valuable out of our interactions. And, being a rape survivor, that is the biggest part of what she wanted from her husband.

The problem is not that she fails to get what she wants from the relationship. The problem is that I am not happy that she is getting most of what she wanted (except for the financial part - but she still gets to live in a nice house and drive a nice car and get a weekly allowance for spending money without having to work outside the home for it) while I am NOT getting what I wanted. My fault for not leaving decades ago. But maybe you are asking "can you be happy knowing she is happy even if you are not getting what you hoped to get"? Or "can you be proud of being able to meet her needs?" No. I am not happy knowing she is getting what she wanted. No, I am not proud of myself for staying in a one-way relationship. Yes, I know that makes me a smaller / lesser person. I can live with that.


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## 269370

Or, more simply put, can you be happy with yourself? 
Perhaps everything else might just about fall into place.

Sometimes we put too much onto ourselves in terms of what we think is expected of us: whether it’s to do with career, being a good husband, father, brother etc. 
Sometimes it is ‘good enough’ just to be yourself and be content about it.
Life is hard enough already!


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Or, more simply put, can you be happy with yourself?


No, never. I hate myself. Always have. Always will.
M wife tells me all the time "you will never be happy". She is correct. She says that in part to justify her failure to meet my needs - no point in her making heroic efforts because I would never be happy. But she is correct even if part of her motivation in saying it is self-protection.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> No, never. I hate myself. Always have. *Always will*.


If you believe this in your heart it will remain always so. No therapy or external intervention can change that. You don't have to love yourself today, or hell even like yourself much. But being open to the idea that is possible is necessary.



> M wife tells me all the time "you will never be happy". She is correct. She says that in part to justify her failure to meet my needs - no point in her making heroic efforts because I would never be happy. But she is correct even if part of her motivation in saying it is self-protection.


It is self preservation.


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## NobodySpecial

I promise not to break into Whitney Houston belting The Greatest Love of All.


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## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> If you believe this in your heart it will remain always so. No therapy or external intervention can change that. You don't have to love yourself today, or hell even like yourself much. But being open to the idea that is possible is necessary.


I completely agree. That is why I don't do therapy any longer. It became clear to me that you are absolutely right. Since I believe in my heart that I will always remain unhappy, there is not point in doing more therapy.

That is why I say that the only thing that might work is TMS or ECT. I believe those treatments might remove the dark cloud that hangs over my thoughts.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> I completely agree. That is why I don't do therapy any longer. It became clear to me that you are absolutely right. Since I believe in my heart that I will always remain unhappy, there is not point in doing more therapy.
> 
> That is why I say that the only thing that might work is TMS or ECT. I believe those treatments might remove the dark cloud that hangs over my thoughts.


I don't know what either of those are. In my experience, no therapy, TMS, ECT, CBT, ABC, PDQ, XYZ, can remove your clouds if your feelings and thoughts actively resist them. Only YOU can change your heart. Looking for external sources to remove your clouds will never work.

What keeps you in such a dangerous, dysfunctional place that you cannot even accept that someday you MIGHT be at least content?


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## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> What keeps you in such a dangerous, dysfunctional place that you cannot even accept that someday you MIGHT be at least content?


Accepting that I will never be happy removes the pressure to do the work to get to a happier place. Moving from here to there would require enormous work on my part. I don't want to do it. Telling myself I will never be happy gives me an "out".

As you said, self-preservation. Same mechanism at work in my wife. If she tells herself that I will never be happy, she is off the hook for not doing the work to reconnect with her sexuality. Once again, I am serious when I say we are a perfect match. Neither of us wants to do our internal work. Both of us tell ourselves that doing the work would not make any difference. Both of us are willing to give our spouse a pass on not doing their internal work because that enables us to justify not doing our own. 2 peas in a pod!


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## 269370

If he, god forbid, becomes content one day, how on earth will he fit with the rest of us, incontinent people here 


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Accepting that I will never be happy removes the pressure to do the work to get to a happier place. Moving from here to there would require enormous work on my part. I don't want to do it. Telling myself I will never be happy gives me an "out".


Has any therapist challenged this warped thinking? You work at all kinds of stuff every day. Why would this work be any different? Fear? If not, if just laziness, what right do you have asking people like your wife or even helpful members of this board to spend their time caring or advising you?



> As you said, self-preservation. Same mechanism at work in my wife. If she tells herself that I will never be happy, she is off the hook for not doing the work to reconnect with her sexuality.


So what is good for the goose is good for the gander? I cannot even begin to imagine why you would think anyone would WANT to engage in any kind of healthy interactive relationship with you, sexually or otherwise. I am not saying this to be mean or judgemental. But real and realistic. You would rather stay miserable than work on you. The only reason to work on you is some kind of quid pro quo so you can get laid? Believe it or not, some measure of contentment if not happiness would be beneficial to you whether or not you ever get laid again



> Once again, I am serious when I say we are a perfect match. Neither of us wants to do our internal work. Both of us tell ourselves that doing the work would not make any difference. Both of us are willing to give our spouse a pass on not doing their internal work because that enables us to justify not doing our own. 2 peas in a pod!


except she is not perpetually miserable from all I can tell.


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## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> Has any therapist challenged this warped thinking? You work at all kinds of stuff every day. Why would this work be any different? Fear? If not, if just laziness, what right do you have asking people like your wife or even helpful members of this board to spend their time caring or advising you?


Yes, I was in therapy several times over several decades. The first guy (saw him in my teens) had it correctly. He told me to stop coming to see him and to come back when I was ready to make changes in my way of thinking. I guess he figured when I grew up and life beat me up eventually I would be motivated to change. He was correct that therapy is worthless if the patient is unwilling to implement changes in their outlook. He was wrong about me ever being willing to change. But I agree with him. If I am not going to change my outlook or behavior, no reason to go back to therapy.

Yes, all my life decisions are based on fear. Not sure if it is fear of failure or fear of success, but it is paralyzing.

As stated many times, the point of this thread is not to help me. I am beyond help. The point is to warn other people away from following in my footsteps. Of thinking that if they give a toxic relationship more time, it will become less toxic. Nope, it doesn't work that way. The more time you spend in a toxic relationship, the more poisoned you get.



> I cannot even begin to imagine why you would think anyone would WANT to engage in any kind of healthy interactive relationship with you, sexually or otherwise. I am not saying this to be mean or judgemental. But real and realistic. You would rather stay miserable than work on you. The only reason to work on you is some kind of quid pro quo so you can get laid? Believe it or not, some measure of contentment if not happiness would be beneficial to you whether or not you ever get laid again


I don't imagine anyone would want to engage in healthy interaction with me. That is why I don't get divorced. What would be the point? To live alone in a small apartment?

Yes, the only reason to work on me would be to "get laid". And no, I don't intend to ever "get laid" again. So no reason to work on me.

I have felt contentment and/or happiness for about 4 or 5 months over the past 50+ years. I have been unhappy pretty much continually since pre-school. Kindergarten. Elementary. Middle school. High school. College. Grad school. Single and working. Anxious, fearful and unhappy the entire time. I hardly know what it is like to feel differently. That is why the only thing I can imagine would make a difference is for doctors to shoot electric currents or magnetic fields into my brain to "rewire" it. Which, due to the risk that it might not accomplish anything and might render me unable to work (and support myself and my wife), I am unwilling to do. I realize all my problems are "first world" problems. I am not looking to create real problems.



> except she is not perpetually miserable from all I can tell.


Yes, as far as I can tell, she is not at all miserable. She likes her job. She has a good number of friends. Some nearby who she sees regularly and some long standing dear ones who she sees occasionally. We have a pleasant time together on the weekends. As far as I can tell she has a rich and full life. She has accepted that I will never be happy and she doesn't let it get her down. She seems to regret that we don't have sex at all, but it does not seem to bother her much. I don't think she misses the sex itself, but it bothers her in the sense that married couples are "supposed" to have sex so she sees it as somehow "wrong" that we don't.


----------



## 2020hindsight

NobodySpecial said:


> I cannot even begin to imagine why you would think anyone would WANT to engage in any kind of healthy interactive relationship with you, sexually or otherwise. I am not saying this to be mean or judgmental. But real and realistic. You would rather stay miserable than work on you. The only reason to work on you is some kind of quid pro quo so you can get laid?


Precisely. From H's detailed description of himself and his wife over many years, she is seemingly a healthy, normal, loving, sociable woman with no sex drive or enjoyment to speak of (unfortunately), quite possibly from birth. Yet she's reached a place in middle age where she's willing to engage in sex with her husband despite getting nothing out of it herself. Because she loves him.

He is the twisted, toxic one with all kinds of secret agendas and grudges and eating away at him. He's made up this story in his head about his wife having PTSD, despite his wife having assured him many times that her lack of sex drive/enjoyment has NOTHING to do what happened to her as a youngster. I would bet a lot of money that, if he set aside this whole lurid fiction he's dreamed up in his head about his wife's sexuality and asked her with an open mind, she would explain that her lack of sex drive or pleasure from sex is a lifelong issue. Some women are just made that way. But he refuses to accept it. Maybe because that would upset the nutty "balance" he's always calibrating in his head.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@2020hindsight has it exactly correct.

Well, except for the no PTSD part. I think the massive overspending (emptying our savings and running up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt) while we were doing marriage counselling is evidence that she does have PTSD. The timing is too correlated to our marital situation to be coincidence. When we were deep in trying to work on our sex life, the spending exploded and was totally irrational. When we stopped working on our sex life, she still pushed for spending but not with the secrecy, lying and complete lack of control. We went to several MCs and STs and the spending tracks the level of intensity of our working on our marriage. Being forced to talk about our sex life causes her much more stress than would be explained by "I just never got anything out of it". And we never talked about the rapes. Just about us having sex.

Like I said, you would have to be there and see the look on her face when we had sex to understand why I am so convinced that she has PTSD.


----------



## 269370

2020hindsight said:


> Precisely. From H's detailed description of himself and his wife over many years, she is seemingly a healthy, normal, loving, sociable woman with no sex drive or enjoyment to speak of (unfortunately), quite possibly from birth. Yet she's reached a place in middle age where she's willing to engage in sex with her husband despite getting nothing out of it herself. Because she loves him.
> 
> He is the twisted, toxic one with all kinds of secret agendas and grudges and eating away at him. He's made up this story in his head about his wife having PTSD, despite his wife having assured him many times that her lack of sex drive/enjoyment has NOTHING to do what happened to her as a youngster. I would bet a lot of money that, if he set aside this whole lurid fiction he's dreamed up in his head about his wife's sexuality and asked her with an open mind, she would explain that her lack of sex drive or pleasure from sex is a lifelong issue. Some women are just made that way. But he refuses to accept it. Maybe because that would upset the nutty "balance" he's always calibrating in his head.




Maybe there’s some truth to that but I don’t think he actually treats her as badly IRL as he makes it out here; all these ‘conspiracy’ theories about his relationship dynamics are partly a tool to help him feel happier (by being unhappy). It’s easier to make oneself out to be a victim. Not that he isn’t; they both are. But he could just as well simply change his attitude and outlook without changing anything at all in the relationship. And everything would still remain the same. He doesn’t sound like he is either suffering from depression (at least currently) or sexual frustration. He probably did in the past.
It’s necessary for him to remain the victim. Maybe that’s all he ever knew. There’s probably a name for this (in shrink terms). But I have no idea what it is.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @2020hindsight has it exactly correct.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, except for the no PTSD part. I think the massive overspending (emptying our savings and running up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt) while we were doing marriage counselling is evidence that she does have PTSD. The timing is too correlated to our marital situation to be coincidence. When we were deep in trying to work on our sex life, the spending exploded and was totally irrational. When we stopped working on our sex life, she still pushed for spending but not with the secrecy, lying and complete lack of control. We went to several MCs and STs and the spending tracks the level of intensity of our working on our marriage. Being forced to talk about our sex life causes her much more stress than would be explained by "I just never got anything out of it". And we never talked about the rapes. Just about us having sex.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, you would have to be there and see the look on her face when we had sex to understand why I am so convinced that she has PTSD.



I think if I took a picture of my wife’s face during sex, it would probably look as if someone was torturing her too. Google ‘sex face’. None of them look particularly happy if you didn’t know what they were doing 
I said it before: you feel inadequate having sex with H2 and always manage to find a way to blame her. Fair enough but I think she can see through you and stopped caring about that some time ago (if she’s still willing to sleep with you).



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## Holdingontoit

She doesn't look like she is tortured. She looks like she is not there. Like her mind is somewhere else. Early on, I thought she was trying to ignore outside distractions, focus on the sensation, and try to reach O. Now that I know she does not feel any sensation and never reaches O, I believe she is trying to ignore the fact that sex is happening to her body. That is classic reaction by an unrecovered rape victim. The fact that she claims not to feel any sensation when her labia and clitoris are rubbed is also consistent with post-rape trauma. Her behavior is not consistent with "it just doesn't matter much to me".

I agree she loves me and wishes she could make me happy. She is willing to have sex with me a few times a year if that would increase my level of contentment. It doesn't. It makes me feel worse. I realize what a sacrifice it is on her part to force herself to be available to me. I am not willing to accept that level of sacrifice on my behalf.


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## 2020hindsight

Holdingontoit said:


> @2020hindsight has it exactly correct.
> 
> Well, except for the no PTSD part. I think the massive overspending (emptying our savings and running up tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt) while we were doing marriage counselling is evidence that she does have PTSD. The timing is too correlated to our marital situation to be coincidence. *When we were deep in trying to work on our sex life, the spending exploded and was totally irrational. When we stopped working on our sex life, she still pushed for spending but not with the secrecy, lying and complete lack of control. * We went to several MCs and STs and the spending tracks the level of intensity of our working on our marriage. Being forced to talk about our sex life causes her much more stress than would be explained by "I just never got anything out of it". And we never talked about the rapes. Just about us having sex.
> 
> Like I said, you would have to be there and see the look on her face when we had sex to understand why I am so convinced that she has PTSD.


I disagree. You could look at it that way. Or you could surmise that she went overboard with the spending because you were constantly pushing her to work on your sex life. If a person isn't motivated to have sex and doesn't really enjoy it, the last thing she wants to do is talk about sex, think about sex, or "work on" her sex life. She must have felt trapped and acted out accordingly (in the way surest to get your attention).

From what I understand, you married a woman who was not sexually motivated. Her authentic self was/is not particularly sexual. Yet somewhere down the line you expected her to change. That's irrational. She acted out childishly, no doubt. But I don't see any PTSD there.


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## Holdingontoit

Maybe you are right. Could be. We'll never know.

And you are correct. I walked into this with plenty of evidence I was making a mistake. Or maybe it wasn't a mistake. She has been sexually faithful. We have great kids. She is pleasant and a friendly companion on weekends. Given my hang-ups, I could have done much worse. That is why I treat her as well as I know how. I know things could be much worse.


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## 2020hindsight

Holdingontoit said:


> She doesn't look like she is tortured. She looks like she is not there. Like her mind is somewhere else. Early on, I thought she was trying to ignore outside distractions, focus on the sensation, and try to reach O. Now that I know she does not feel any sensation and never reaches O, I believe she is trying to ignore the fact that sex is happening to her body. That is classic reaction by an unrecovered rape victim. The fact that she claims not to feel any sensation when her labia and clitoris are rubbed is also consistent with post-rape trauma. Her behavior is not consistent with "it just doesn't matter much to me".
> 
> I agree she loves me and wishes she could make me happy. She is willing to have sex with me a few times a year if that would increase my level of contentment. It doesn't. It makes me feel worse. I realize what a sacrifice it is on her part to force herself to be available to me. I am not willing to accept that level of sacrifice on my behalf.


RE: The face thing. If she "does not feel any sensation and never reaches O," then her face would understandably look rather blank. How would your face look, if you felt nothing when your genitalia were rubbed? Most likely, quite blank.

Maybe inside she's wondering, what's the big deal about this sex thing anyway? What do other people see in it? Or going over her grocery shopping list. Or thinking about the book she is currently reading. I'm sorry, I don't see PTSD here. Some women are born far down on the low side of the sexual spectrum. It makes sense that, for every woman born with a strong sex drive and enjoyment of sex, there's someone born far on the opposite side of the spectrum. I'm exactly the same in my (lack of) sexual desire and response, and I've never been sexually assaulted, outside of one brief tussle in a car, from which I sprinted away unharmed.

IMO, you should give up this PTSD narrative that you've built up in your head. It's an unhelpful fiction.


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## Buddy400

2020hindsight said:


> IMO, you should give up this PTSD narrative that you've built up in your head. It's an unhelpful fiction.


What would he do differently if he "gave up this PTSD narrative"?

I've read this entire thread and I'm convinced that he's finally found the best possible outcome.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, I was in therapy several times over several decades. The first guy (saw him in my teens) had it correctly. He told me to stop coming to see him and to come back when I was ready to make changes in my way of thinking.


Good on him for thinking of you instead of his boat payment. 



> I guess he figured when I grew up and life beat me up eventually I would be motivated to change. He was correct that therapy is worthless if the patient is unwilling to implement changes in their outlook. He was wrong about me ever being willing to change. But I agree with him. If I am not going to change my outlook or behavior, no reason to go back to therapy.
> 
> Yes, all my life decisions are based on fear. Not sure if it is fear of failure or fear of success, but it is paralyzing.


Been there, done that. Gratefully for me (and my child who is currently suffering in the same manner), I was able to get past the paralysis. It CAN FEEL paralyzing. It does not have to. For Me, step 1 was not to change me, change my thoughts. But to be willing to. A leap of faith that allowed me to take baby steps away from the paralysis. It took me about 3 months to look non-judgmentally at fear and simply recognizing it was so. To stop trying to answer the people who said what are you afraid of. To just accept that I lived in fear. No judgement. No root cause analysis. Just that it was so. Baby steps, Bob.



> As stated many times, the point of this thread is not to help me.


Tough sh!t. I am going to try. 



> I am beyond help.


You believe that. I don't. That won't get you far. But it helped me. There is a saying in group therapy. Let me love you until you can love yourself. 



> The point is to warn other people away from following in my footsteps. Of thinking that if they give a toxic relationship more time, it will become less toxic. Nope, it doesn't work that way. The more time you spend in a toxic relationship, the more poisoned you get.


I challenge you to stop thinking about relationships. You are a babe in the woods. (That is hard to accept. Ask me how I know.) We people who live in fear like to place blame elsewhere. My mother. My siblings. The priests. The nuns. My husband. My in-laws. While all these people and things have influenced my feelings, they are not responsible. *I* am. 

I am going to say something that is going to sound really mean and harsh. I sure as heck hated it when I heard it. Wallowing in self hatred, accepting your broken-ness is *selfish*. You are accepting an easy road (yes, accepting the fear and broken ness is easier than learning and growing). And while you are doing that, you are not being the best husband, father, community member, employee that you can be. 

So again, I am going to sound mean. I hope you have some faith that that is not my intent. 

You have no business advising people about toxic relationships or any relationships. You aren't in one. Your insight is badly suspect so long as you won't look at yourself. (Ask me how I know.) Your issues are not relationship issues. They are mental health issues. (Ask me how I know.) Your motivation to advise is suspect. You blame relationship toxicity. Are you sure you are not asking people to join your pity party? To validate your safe and comfortable position that it is others (toxic relationship....) so you can continue to abdicate your responsibility regarding yourself as a lost cause? (Ask me why I suspect that.)



> I don't imagine anyone would want to engage in healthy interaction with me. That is why I don't get divorced. What would be the point? To live alone in a small apartment?
> 
> Yes, the only reason to work on me would be to "get laid". And no, I don't intend to ever "get laid" again. So no reason to work on me.


Pity party. What's in it for ME. The first person to hold that mirror up for me was not a therapist but another sufferer. What the f did the therapist know? (Well quite a lot it turns out. But I did not want to hear that.) Only a ginger can call another ginger ginger. 

YOU can't/won't get laid. So f it. What about consigning your wife to living with your miserable ass? You are absolved so long as you don't ask for sex for YOU from her? Happy quid pro quo?As long as I don't ask her for MINE, I don't need to give her the best ME? As long as you provide some measure of the money she wants? YOU don't have to live alone in apartment. WOOOO. Who is helping HER feel loved and cherished for herself? Who is there to be fully present for your kids in their lives? Who can engage with empathy and compassion for the hurting in the community?

I don't know how that works for you. But I had to face that. For me the pity party was not around sex and happiness but self esteem. Yah I could accept that I was and always would be a crappy person. (Turns out to be warped thinking. Who knew. I wanted my warped thinking. It was comfy.) But I had no right to consign my husband to that ugliness. I had no right to ask my kids to deal with a crappy Mom. I had no right to be less of a friend than I could be. I certainly had no right to take my self righteous pity party out in the world and tell people how to avoid the toxicity of all those OTHER people I blamed for ME. Own it, girlfriend (says I to myself). You OWE a healthy self to the people around you. 

For me, the unexpected result was the beginning of peace. Acceptance. I like that even better than happiness, truth be told. Knowing that I am not a perfect person. But that I did my best that day. And each morning mapping out how to do just a little better that day. Lo and behold, acceptance lead to contentment. Contentment opened the door to moments of genuine joy.



> I have felt contentment and/or happiness for about 4 or 5 months over the past 50+ years. I have been unhappy pretty much continually since pre-school. Kindergarten. Elementary. Middle school. High school. College. Grad school. Single and working. Anxious, fearful and unhappy the entire time. I hardly know what it is like to feel differently. That is why the only thing I can imagine would make a difference is for doctors to shoot electric currents or magnetic fields into my brain to "rewire" it. Which, due to the risk that it might not accomplish anything and might render me unable to work (and support myself and my wife), I am unwilling to do. I realize all my problems are "first world" problems. I am not looking to create real problems.


Well you are a step ahead of me. I never knew happiness. Fear was a constant from a very young age. So long as you hope for a miracle cure from elsewhere, it will always elude you. You can get HELP. You can look at the tools that others present to you for inclusion in your toolbox. But only you can decide whether or not to take step 1. Then decide again to add another baby step. The mind heals itself. The mind heals the brain. Sorry, chuck. There is no med or treatment that is going to "rewire" you. And... ouch... it is *selfish *to accept that and throw up your hands and decry SO IT IS FOR ME. WOE IS ME. Ask me how I know.



> Yes, as far as I can tell, she is not at all miserable. She likes her job. She has a good number of friends. Some nearby who she sees regularly and some long standing dear ones who she sees occasionally. We have a pleasant time together on the weekends. *As far as I can tell* she has a rich and full life. She has accepted that I will never be happy and she doesn't let it get her down. She seems to regret that we don't have sex at all, but it does not seem to bother her much. I don't think she misses the sex itself, but it bothers her in t
> 
> he sense that married couples are "supposed" to have sex so she sees it as somehow "wrong" that we don't.


Who knows what you and she don't know. All I know is you are afraid to find out. Status quo is comfy. Sex (or lack thereof) is not your problem. It is the symptom that you have latched on to. If she decided to screw your brains out on a regular basis, you would find yourself under the influence of fun brain hormones for a time. But you would be no more content, peaceful and heavens not happier. 

OUCH. Hurts. I will be amazed if you don't block me. But maybe you will stop placing destruction for yourself everywhere you go.


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> Good on him for thinking of you instead of his boat payment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Been there, done that. Gratefully for me (and my child who is currently suffering in the same manner), I was able to get past the paralysis. It CAN FEEL paralyzing. It does not have to. For Me, step 1 was not to change me, change my thoughts. But to be willing to. A leap of faith that allowed me to take baby steps away from the paralysis. It took me about 3 months to look non-judgmentally at fear and simply recognizing it was so. To stop trying to answer the people who said what are you afraid of. To just accept that I lived in fear. No judgement. No root cause analysis. Just that it was so. Baby steps, Bob.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tough sh!t. I am going to try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You believe that. I don't. That won't get you far. But it helped me. There is a saying in group therapy. Let me love you until you can love yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I challenge you to stop thinking about relationships. You are a babe in the woods. (That is hard to accept. Ask me how I know.) We people who live in fear like to place blame elsewhere. My mother. My siblings. The priests. The nuns. My husband. My in-laws. While all these people and things have influenced my feelings, they are not responsible. *I* am.
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to say something that is going to sound really mean and harsh. I sure as heck hated it when I heard it. Wallowing in self hatred, accepting your broken-ness is *selfish*. You are accepting an easy road (yes, accepting the fear and broken ness is easier than learning and growing). And while you are doing that, you are not being the best husband, father, community member, employee that you can be.
> 
> 
> 
> So again, I am going to sound mean. I hope you have some faith that that is not my intent.
> 
> 
> 
> You have no business advising people about toxic relationships or any relationships. You aren't in one. Your insight is badly suspect so long as you won't look at yourself. (Ask me how I know.) Your issues are not relationship issues. They are mental health issues. (Ask me how I know.) Your motivation to advise is suspect. You blame relationship toxicity. Are you sure you are not asking people to join your pity party? To validate your safe and comfortable position that it is others (toxic relationship....) so you can continue to abdicate your responsibility regarding yourself as a lost cause? (Ask me why I suspect that.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pity party. What's in it for ME. The first person to hold that mirror up for me was not a therapist but another sufferer. What the f did the therapist know? (Well quite a lot it turns out. But I did not want to hear that.) Only a ginger can call another ginger ginger.
> 
> 
> 
> YOU can't/won't get laid. So f it. What about consigning your wife to living with your miserable ass? You are absolved so long as you don't ask for sex for YOU from her? Happy quid pro quo?As long as I don't ask her for MINE, I don't need to give her the best ME? As long as you provide some measure of the money she wants? YOU don't have to live alone in apartment. WOOOO. Who is helping HER feel loved and cherished for herself? Who is there to be fully present for your kids in their lives? Who can engage with empathy and compassion for the hurting in the community?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how that works for you. But I had to face that. For me the pity party was not around sex and happiness but self esteem. Yah I could accept that I was and always would be a crappy person. (Turns out to be warped thinking. Who knew. I wanted my warped thinking. It was comfy.) But I had no right to consign my husband to that ugliness. I had no right to ask my kids to deal with a crappy Mom. I had no right to be less of a friend than I could be. I certainly had no right to take my self righteous pity party out in the world and tell people how to avoid the toxicity of all those OTHER people I blamed for ME. Own it, girlfriend (says I to myself). You OWE a healthy self to the people around you.
> 
> 
> 
> For me, the unexpected result was the beginning of peace. Acceptance. I like that even better than happiness, truth be told. Knowing that I am not a perfect person. But that I did my best that day. And each morning mapping out how to do just a little better that day. Lo and behold, acceptance lead to contentment. Contentment opened the door to moments of genuine joy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well you are a step ahead of me. I never knew happiness. Fear was a constant from a very young age. So long as you hope for a miracle cure from elsewhere, it will always elude you. You can get HELP. You can look at the tools that others present to you for inclusion in your toolbox. But only you can decide whether or not to take step 1. Then decide again to add another baby step. The mind heals itself. The mind heals the brain. Sorry, chuck. There is no med or treatment that is going to "rewire" you. And... ouch... it is *selfish *to accept that and throw up your hands and decry SO IT IS FOR ME. WOE IS ME. Ask me how I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who knows what you and she don't know. All I know is you are afraid to find out. Status quo is comfy. Sex (or lack thereof) is not your problem. It is the symptom that you have latched on to. If she decided to screw your brains out on a regular basis, you would find yourself under the influence of fun brain hormones for a time. But you would be no more content, peaceful and heavens not happier.
> 
> 
> 
> OUCH. Hurts. I will be amazed if you don't block me. But maybe you will stop placing destruction for yourself everywhere you go.




Good post. I tried that. He likes placing ‘destruction’ on himself. Maybe he’s a little melodramatic? I really don’t think he’s as bad a husband/father etc as he’s making himself out to be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> Good post. I tried that. He likes placing ‘destruction’ on himself. Maybe he’s a little melodramatic? I really don’t think he’s *as bad* a husband/father etc as he’s making himself out to be.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that a great place to put the bar? It was not for me. His mileage may vary.


----------



## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> I am going to say something that is going to sound really mean and harsh. I sure as heck hated it when I heard it. Wallowing in self hatred, accepting your broken-ness is *selfish*. You are accepting an easy road (yes, accepting the fear and broken ness is easier than learning and growing). And while you are doing that, you are not being the best husband, father, community member, employee that you can be.


Exactly. So what? I spent 50+ years being "good". Trying to be nice to other people. Trying to be the best I could be. Putting other people's needs ahead of my own. What did it get me? Kicked. Spat on. Mocked. Betrayed.

Of course my current path is a selfish one. That is the point. I am talking the "easy way out". I am OK with that. 



> Your issues are not relationship issues. They are mental health issues.


Correct.



> What about consigning your wife to living with your miserable ass? You are absolved so long as you don't ask for sex for YOU from her? Happy quid pro quo?As long as I don't ask her for MINE, I don't need to give her the best ME? As long as you provide some measure of the money she wants? Who is helping HER feel loved and cherished for herself? Who is there to be fully present for your kids in their lives?


I agree. I am less than I could be. It is a pity and a shame. But I can live with that. I have been ashamed of myself my entire conscious life. You cannot motivate me to take action by trying to shame me. I heap more shame on myself than you could ever manage, and I am better at it because I know myself better than anyone else does. I know exactly where to poke myself to elicit maximum pain.

Yes, I agree my wife and kids are paying a price for my decision to be less than I could be. Not proud of that. But, again, I can live with that. I do fine by my wife. All her friends are jealous of the way I talk to and about her. Of course, they don't have to live in a house with crappy peeling kitchen cabinets. But she seems to feel plenty loved and cherished. I nursed her through her cancer. I tell her every day how beautiful she is despite the scars and the wrinkles. I am pleasant company wherever she drags my butt on the weekends. No, I am not a happy fulfilled person. But she could do a lot worse. And the kids adore me. Maybe they wish I were happier. But they know beyond a moral certainty that I love them and want the best for them. What else can a child reasonably ask from their parent? I am quite content with my parenting, despite my flaws and self-hatred. Could I do even better with another outlook on life? Maybe. But I do not aspire to that greatness.

As @inmyprime said, you can't get my goat by trying to shame me. There is no level of shame that I cannot revel in. It is what I live for. It is where I feel most at home.



NobodySpecial said:


> Is that a great place to put the bar? It was not for me. His mileage may vary.


It can and does. My bar is much lower than yours.

I honestly and truly admire you for having a higher bar and being willing to do the work to drag yourself out form under the cloud of depression. Well done m'lady.

But I am staying here in the shade. Direct sunlight hurts my eyes.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I was not trying to shame you. If you wish to be a miserable wretch and all you got from my post was self congratulations and shame for you, then you clearly missed the point. Not my monkeys, not my circus. I do feel for the poor schleps who take your "advice". I won't wish you the best since you don't want it. I will just say Poor You and how much more miserable life has been to you perpetually kicking you in the teeth ohhhhh so much more than the rest of the world. Is that better?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Not being snarky, but I am confident I missed the point of your post. Happens all the time. I am slow on the uptake (took me 5 years to complain about the lack of sex). And I am a weird duck. So things that make sense or seem obvious to most humans tend to leave me oblivious.
What exactly about my "advice" do you take to be misguided?
I tell guys not to be like me. I tell them to become the best version of themselves they can be. I tell them to set a fixed deadline inside their heads of how long they will tolerate a sexless marriage, and not to waste extra time in a relationship that drags himself and his partner down. I tell them to set their partner free if she isn't interested in sex with him. Which part of that do you disagree with?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> What exactly about my "advice" do you take to be misguided?
> I tell guys not to be like me. I tell them to become the best version of themselves they can be. I tell them to set a fixed deadline inside their heads of how long they will tolerate a sexless marriage, and not to waste extra time in a relationship that drags himself and his partner down. I tell them to set their partner free if she isn't interested in sex with him. Which part of that do you disagree with?


I would say that you have no idea how to be the best person you can be. How would you propose to advise someone on how to do that? I propose that you have no real experience in an otherwise healthy marriage which has a failing sexual component. Your advise is to cut and run. 

Their mileage may vary. I would say seek to get laid and if you don't f all is not good advice. I wonder why I continue to engage. Perhaps some poor person will see this and think twice before becoming as bitter and defeated as you.


----------



## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> I would say that you have no idea how to be the best person you can be.


We agree.



> I propose that you have no real experience in an otherwise healthy marriage which has a failing sexual component.


We agree.



> Your advise is to cut and run.


I disagree. I don't tell people to cut and run on day 1. I tell people to give it a period of time, and during that time to work earnestly on becoming a more attractive person themselves, on meeting their partner's needs and on refraining from annoying their partner. I only advise them to leave after they have tried all 3 of those things and failed to improve whatever aspect of the relationship was bothering them. If your advice is to stay together no matter what, then we can agree to disagree.



> I wonder why I continue to engage. Perhaps some poor person will see this and think twice before becoming as bitter and defeated as you.


As I have stated frequently, that is the primary purpose of this thread. Not to help me. But to save some other person from following this path.
In my view, deciding that one is going to stay "no matter what" is the first, worst and most crucial step that leads to where I have wound up. If you aren't willing to leave, and your partner knows that, then you have no leverage to get what you want from the relationship. And if your partner was the kind of person who was going to give it to you out of the goodness of their heart, then you probably wouldn't show up at TAM in the first place.

But maybe that person is you. The person whose partner is awesome but who feels they themselves fall short. The person seeking not how to get more out of their marriage but the person who seeks to be able to give more. Ah, in that case you are correct. I am in no position to give advice to that person. And frankly I don't think I participate in many threads along those lines.


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## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> Is that a great place to put the bar? It was not for me. His mileage may vary.


Not a great bar, for sure, but as long as he doesn't notice it too much (the fact that he's not that terrible and such a failure), his relationship might be ok 

Shh, shh, you might scare him away :wink2:


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## 269370

Actually it is quite common not to live by one's own advice. It's reverse hypocriticism (we all have some of this).
I really sometimes think 75% of all this self-loathing is self-created/self-inflicted and partly imagined.
Guys with this kind of level of 'messed up' that is self described here don't write like this about themselves. It's the actions that speak more than words and a little bit of self-loathing is actually quite a good thing and normal (sorry, H, didn't mean to imply you might be 'normal' 
It's a shame his wife won't post here; I bet she thinks he is quite adorable


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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I was not trying to shame you. If you wish to be a miserable wretch and all you got from my post was self congratulations and shame for you, then you clearly missed the point. Not my monkeys, not my circus. I do feel for the poor schleps who take your "advice". I won't wish you the best since you don't want it. I will just say Poor You and how much more miserable life has been to you perpetually kicking you in the teeth ohhhhh so much more than the rest of the world. Is that better?


Actually, I usually find @Holdingontoit's advice to be generally superior to most.

I don't think just being effortlessly good at anything puts one in a position to give good advice.

Probably the opposite.


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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I would say that you have no idea how to be the best person you can be. How would you propose to advise someone on how to do that? I propose that you have no real experience in an otherwise healthy marriage which has a failing sexual component. Your advise is to cut and run.


"Being the best person you can be" is the ultimate goal in life.

It is not, however, necessarily the best way to get the relationship you want.

It is also certainly not the best way to get laid.

In fact, it can actively work against a relationship.


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Actually, I usually find @Holdingontoit's advice to be generally superior to most.
> 
> I don't think just being effortlessly good at anything puts one in a position to give good advice.
> 
> Probably the opposite.


Effortless, heaven's no. Insightful? Yes.


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> "Being the best person you can be" is the ultimate goal in life.
> 
> It is not, however, necessarily the best way to get the relationship you want.
> 
> It is also certainly not the best way to get laid.
> 
> In fact, it can actively work against a relationship.


I disagree. The best person one can be includes learning, growing, self esteem, effectiveness in achieving balance, peacefulness, joyfulness... The best person one can be does not include giving all of oneself until one looses oneself. What can be in one's relationship if one is not there in the first place.


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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> I disagree. The best person one can be includes learning, growing, self esteem, effectiveness in achieving balance, peacefulness, joyfulness... The best person one can be does not include giving all of oneself until one looses oneself. What can be in one's relationship if one is not there in the first place.


I agree with your definition of "being the best you can be".

With that in mind, I still stand behind my prior statement.


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> I agree with your definition of "being the best you can be".
> 
> With that in mind, I still stand behind my prior statement.


That being the best person you can be is detrimental to a relationship? That strikes me odd, but ok.

Anyway woe to the person who puts too much stock in respondents that help support the notion that the issue presented herein is THE defining issue in a marriage. That is why I participate so rarely and why counseling is so frequently ineffective. People are complex and relationships are worse. Anyway, peace out.


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## 269370

I tried 'shaming' him. He likes it. Lets see what happens if you flatter him >
Might freak him out.

It's the old elimination method 0


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## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I tried 'shaming' him. He likes it. Lets see what happens if you flatter him >
> Might freak him out.
> 
> It's the old elimination method 0


You are FUNNY!


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime is on to something. Definitely freaks me out to be complimented. I do not take compliments well.


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## john117

How did she spend $75k and your savings secretly?


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## Holdingontoit

john117 said:


> How did she spend $75k and your savings secretly?


We bought our first house around the time we started doing MC. We had 2 small kids and she wanted to nest. I gave her a budget to furnish the house and fix up parts of the kitchen. I did not pay much attention to the work as I had a SAHM wife, a new mortgage and 2 little kids and I was busting my butt at work. She would report to me on the work that was being done. Things she had purchased. She did not mention prices. I assumed she was sticking to the agreed budget. She had always been good about our finances up until that point so no red flags for me to question what she was doing.
Then over the winter the roof leaked (guess now we know why the house was on sale for such a good price). I called the bank to get a HELOC to fix the roof. I didn't see paying 100% up front for a roof that would last 20 years. When I called the bank to ask for a loan, the banker asked me if I wanted to pay off some of my credit card debt as well. I responded "what credit card debt?" Seems like we owed tens of thousands. I confronted her and said we needed to dip into savings to pay down the debt. That is when she told me all the savings was gone.
We had only owned the house for a few months. The savings was still in the bank / brokerage earlier that year when we paid the down payment and applied for our mortgage. It honestly never occurred to me that anyone would spend that kind of money that quickly. Tens of thousands of savings gone. Tens of thousands of debt incurred. All in a few months.
It still seems unreal to me when I look back on it.


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## john117

Well, here's the thing. I've had three houses built and in all three we knew down to the last dollar what went where. Especially the last one where I decided to play project manager. We hired a renowned architect and worked together to create the ultimate McMansion. 

There's no way I or wife could have pulled such a stunt. Then for furniture we went slowly. 

What I'm saying here is that subconsciously you may have mailed it in just to let her have her way with something. Could this be?


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> We bought our first house around the time we started doing MC. We had 2 small kids and she wanted to nest. I gave her a budget to furnish the house and fix up parts of the kitchen. I did not pay much attention to the work as I had a SAHM wife, a new mortgage and 2 little kids and I was busting my butt at work. She would report to me on the work that was being done. Things she had purchased. She did not mention prices. I assumed she was sticking to the agreed budget. She had always been good about our finances up until that point so no red flags for me to question what she was doing.
> 
> Then over the winter the roof leaked (guess now we know why the house was on sale for such a good price). I called the bank to get a HELOC to fix the roof. I didn't see paying 100% up front for a roof that would last 20 years. When I called the bank to ask for a loan, the banker asked me if I wanted to pay off some of my credit card debt as well. I responded "what credit card debt?" Seems like we owed tens of thousands. I confronted her and said we needed to dip into savings to pay down the debt. That is when she told me all the savings was gone.
> 
> We had only owned the house for a few months. The savings was still in the bank / brokerage earlier that year when we paid the down payment and applied for our mortgage. It honestly never occurred to me that anyone would spend that kind of money that quickly. Tens of thousands of savings gone. Tens of thousands of debt incurred. All in a few months.
> 
> It still seems unreal to me when I look back on it.



She went over budget on house projects that you asked her to complete. It’s different than ‘spending tens of thousands secretly’.
It’s partly your fault you left it all completely up to her.
Renovations never stay on budget and you can easily run over budget.

Building a new house from scratch: that’s different and usually stays on track.


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## 269370

We refurbished our house 5 years ago and went a few hundred k over. I wanted better specced bathrooms, Japanese toilets, underfloor heating etc. But we did it together (as in, I didn’t just hand over a credit card and say: ‘here you go, you fix up the house’).


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## Holdingontoit

Yes, I understand I was at fault for not paying more attention.
Let us put the amounts in context. I authorized $30k. She spent about $200k. Is that "losing track"? Is that "going over budget"?
We did not do "renovations" except to put down new flooring in the kitchen. We did not knock down walls. We did not redo cabinets. We kept almost all the same appliances (I think we got a new refrigerator). Mostly just bought furnishings for the living room.
She bought a $1500 throw pillow. She bought $20,000 drapes. Those are not contractor overrun issues. Yes, bad on me for not imagining that it was possible to spend $20,000 on drapes much less that my wife would actually do so.
Yes, I was lazy and negligent. I should have had daily meetings to go over each purchase and review the cost and compare it to our budget.
My bad.
Not my first error in judgment. Won't be my last.
Affects my view of the betrayal not at all.


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## kag123

What does she say about the spending from that time period? I'm curious to know how she justified $20k drapes. 

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## Holdingontoit

She says her nesting instincts took over and she "lost track" of how much she was spending.
Really? She spent the entirety of our savings. She started using the credit cards when there was no money left in the bank. She didn't notice that? She was a finance major who worked for an accounting firm and then a management consulting firm before we got married. I think she has a pretty good idea what "overdrawn" means.
After I found out, I took away the credit cards and started having my paycheck deposited into a separate account. She opened up new cards in her name without telling me. She forged my name on checks to pay the charges on the new cards. At one point I was sleeping with my wallet locked away so she couldn't take it in the middle of the night to use the cards or steal a check. All account statements were switched to my office. I put a freeze on my credit scores so new accounts could not be opened jointly. The whole thing was a nightmare.
To this day she describes it as losing track and indulging her motherly instincts to make the house nice for her children.

But I share the blame. I should never have tolerated all that. I should have paid more attention and intervened earlier. If I were a leader instead of an ostrich it would never have happened and most likely she would respect me more.


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## Buddy400

NobodySpecial said:


> That being the best person you can be is detrimental to a relationship? That strikes me odd, but ok.
> 
> Anyway woe to the person who puts too much stock in respondents that help support the notion that the issue presented herein is THE defining issue in a marriage. That is why I participate so rarely and why counseling is so frequently ineffective. People are complex and relationships are worse. Anyway, peace out.


Well, I don't think "Being the best you can be" IS detrimental to a relationship, but it could be.

If your partner things you're a much "better person" than they are, that can breed resentment.

"Being the best you can be" is it's own reward, others rarely reward you for it (nor are they required to).


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, I understand I was at fault for not paying more attention.
> Let us put the amounts in context. I authorized $30k. She spent about $200k. Is that "losing track"? Is that "going over budget"?
> We did not do "renovations" except to put down new flooring in the kitchen. We did not knock down walls. We did not redo cabinets. We kept almost all the same appliances (I think we got a new refrigerator). Mostly just bought furnishings for the living room.
> She bought a $1500 throw pillow. She bought $20,000 drapes. Those are not contractor overrun issues. Yes, bad on me for not imagining that it was possible to spend $20,000 on drapes much less that my wife would actually do so.
> Yes, I was lazy and negligent. I should have had daily meetings to go over each purchase and review the cost and compare it to our budget.
> My bad.
> Not my first error in judgment. Won't be my last.
> Affects my view of the betrayal not at all.


No, $20,000 on drapes is probably about $19,000 too much...I would be pissed off too. Were they made out of gold?

Ok, so being accused of sexual negligence/incompetence is welcome but of monetary negligence seems to be a bit of a trigger...Hmmm, I am still building a profile here :nerd:


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> She says her nesting instincts took over and she "lost track" of how much she was spending.
> Really? She spent the entirety of our savings. She started using the credit cards when there was no money left in the bank. She didn't notice that? She was a finance major who worked for an accounting firm and then a management consulting firm before we got married. I think she has a pretty good idea what "overdrawn" means.
> After I found out, I took away the credit cards and started having my paycheck deposited into a separate account. She opened up new cards in her name without telling me. She forged my name on checks to pay the charges on the new cards. At one point I was sleeping with my wallet locked away so she couldn't take it in the middle of the night to use the cards or steal a check. All account statements were switched to my office. I put a freeze on my credit scores so new accounts could not be opened jointly. The whole thing was a nightmare.
> To this day she describes it as losing track and indulging her motherly instincts to make the house nice for her children.
> 
> But I share the blame. I should never have tolerated all that. I should have paid more attention and intervened earlier. If I were a leader instead of an ostrich it would never have happened and most likely she would respect me more.


Curiously, the only other person I know who did something similar was a sexually frustrated woman who had a hard time persuading her husband to have sex with her as he suffered from ED or was too afraid to have sex with her (it wasn't clear). But basically he just wouldn't **** her and she ran up huge debts on credit cards as well. Not saying H2 is frustrated in some way but there's perhaps some underlying lack of satisfaction that she needed to fill.

(Was it too late to return the drapes for a refund? This would drive me nuts. And I do hate drapes or curtains. I am a roller blinds guy.)


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## Holdingontoit

Of course H2 was frustrated. She was frustrated that I made partner at my firm and took home less than when I was an employee! Deep down I always got the impression that her subconscious figured if she spent all our money it would motivate me to earn more. She didn't understand me well enough to know that I found it DE-motivating. Work harder to put money into savings and retire some day? Yes, sign me up. Work harder so wife can buy another set of $20,000 drapes? Why bother.

Drapes were made to order and imported from Europe and no way to return them.

I think she was also frustrated that I was not mentally and emotionally stronger and tougher. That I did not stand up to her more. It scared her that she could not rely on me to "take care of business". I think in part she was trying to goad me into "putting her in her place". Unfortunately for both of us, there is no spine there for me to stiffen. I just rolled over and played dead. Still do. That is why the no sex works for me. I view me as pathetic and I wouldn't want to have sex with me, either.

The "good" news is that wife has more health problems. Bulging disc in her neck. Sore throat. Something wrong with her thyroid. A bunch of new doctors to see. I will go into caretaker / nursing mode. My martyr side likes that. So we will get along while I am buffing the calluses off her feet, making her tea, etc. One of her good friends just got diagnosed with late stage breast cancer. H2 is feeling fragile. That let's me tend to her, which brings out my better side.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Of course H2 was frustrated. She was frustrated that I made partner at my firm and took home less than when I was an employee! Deep down I always got the impression that her subconscious figured if she spent all our money it would motivate me to earn more. She didn't understand me well enough to know that I found it DE-motivating. Work harder to put money into savings and retire some day? Yes, sign me up. Work harder so wife can buy another set of $20,000 drapes? Why bother.
> 
> Drapes were made to order and imported from Europe and no way to return them.
> 
> I think she was also frustrated that I was not mentally and emotionally stronger and tougher. That I did not stand up to her more. It scared her that she could not rely on me to "take care of business". I think in part she was trying to goad me into "putting her in her place". Unfortunately for both of us, there is no spine there for me to stiffen.


Unfortunately for both of you she may have chosen passive aggressive communication and failure as spouse to see you as a mere money machine. Just sayin'.


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## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> Unfortunately for both of you she may have chosen passive aggressive communication and failure as spouse to see you as a mere money machine. Just sayin'.


Well, she will never beat me at being passive aggressive.
Sad news: a friend of hers got cancer. Stage 3. Aggressive. Has to start chemo immediately. Friend has a decent sense of humor. She asked her BFFs "so which one of you is going to have sex with my husband while I am out of action"? H2 relayed this story to me. I said "good to hear that they are still having sex."
Not sure what H2 was aiming for in telling me that story.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, she will never beat me at being passive aggressive.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Good for both of you. Not. I have never seen anyone relish their dysfunction like you.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, she will never beat me at being passive aggressive.
> 
> Sad news: a friend of hers got cancer. Stage 3. Aggressive. Has to start chemo immediately. Friend has a decent sense of humor. She asked her BFFs "so which one of you is going to have sex with my husband while I am out of action"? H2 relayed this story to me. I said "good to hear that they are still having sex."
> 
> Not sure what H2 was aiming for in telling me that story.



Haha, I know I shouldn’t laugh but your comment made me laugh. How does she react to those phrases of yours? Does she ignore and pretends not to hear them or does she look lost and clueless when you say those things out loud?

I think you might be my future me  🤯 



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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> I think you might be my future me.


God forbid.


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## anonmd

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, she will never beat me at being passive aggressive.
> Sad news: a friend of hers got cancer. Stage 3. Aggressive. Has to start chemo immediately. Friend has a decent sense of humor. She asked her BFFs "so which one of you is going to have sex with my husband while I am out of action"? H2 relayed this story to me. I said "good to hear that they are still having sex."
> Not sure what H2 was aiming for in telling me that story.


Maybe she was offering your services


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## Holdingontoit

I am just pleased to hear that his wife who has never had anything good to say about sex with him (at least not in front of me) and frequently denigrated his capabilities (compared to her prior lovers) was nevertheless willing to service him on a regular enough basis that she felt he would mind not being serviced during the period of her incapacity. And if her expressing disappointment with him sexually was just an act to make me feel better, wonderful to hear and I am glad the sex is good for her too.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> God forbid.




Too late 
I am already planning my mother of all of revenges. By typing thousands of posts about how terrible our sex life is and not saying a word to her face 


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: yes, exactly.


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## Satya

I can't fathom your wife going over budget to a degree like that and not having the decency to inform you - from the moment it was likely to go over. The fact it went over at all is not surprising and she could have made some wiser choices. But seriously, did she think the problem would just go away?

That's not nesting instinct. Thats financial irresponsibility.


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## MEM2020

Agreed. It was intentional. And I actually believe that her intention was to try to force H to increase his salary to support the lifestyle she aspired to. 

We had been together about two years when M2, who had become a stay at home mom, decided that we needed to support a family member who was living way beyond their means. And I said: If we start that, it will never end. Tell you what, if it’s that important to you, you can get a part time job and give as much of your after tax, after expense income to your sister as you want. 

M2 correctly read my tone which was that this was her only option. She said that was fair and when it was framed that way she realized it wasn’t as high a priority as she thought. It didn’t come up again. And yes that would have been a deal breaker to me. Being forced to support someone else’s chronically overspending lifestyle. 

And fwiw - in the ensuing 26 years the person she wanted to help has gone bankrupt twice and is headed towards a third bankruptcy. 

And M2 occasionally thanks me for helping her/us avoid the black hole of someone else’s irresponsibility. 






Satya said:


> I can't fathom your wife going over budget to a degree like that and not having the decency to inform you - from the moment it was likely to go over. The fact it went over at all is not surprising and she could have made some wiser choices. But seriously, did she think the problem would just go away?
> 
> That's not nesting instinct. Thats financial irresponsibility.


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## Holdingontoit

She started with no carrot and a stick. She used the stick so many times it broke. Now she has neither carrot nor stick. Much easier for me, who had neither carrot nor stick, to deal with the absence of levers to pull. For her, I think more difficult to resign herself to reduced capacity. She has no levers remaining, only the big red button. Will she press it? I hope not.


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## Livvie

Holdingontoit said:


> She started with no carrot and a stick. She used the stick so many times it broke. Now she has neither carrot nor stick. Much easier for me, who had neither carrot nor stick, to deal with the absence of levers to pull. For her, I think more difficult to resign herself to reduced capacity. She has no levers remaining, only the big red button. Will she press it? I hope not.


You sound kinda like SunCMars now!


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> She started with no carrot and a stick. She used the stick so many times it broke. Now she has neither carrot nor stick. Much easier for me, who had neither carrot nor stick, to deal with the absence of levers to pull. For her, I think more difficult to resign herself to reduced capacity. She has no levers remaining, only the big red button. Will she press it? I hope not.


I see why you got no useful advice from a marriage board since that does not sound like much of a marriage. None of what you posted ever did.


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## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> I see why you got no useful advice from a marriage board since that does not sound like much of a marriage. None of what you posted ever did.


We were both decent well-intentioned people. We thought that we had what the other needed. Time and experience has taught us otherwise. Both of us prioritized child care over personal fulfillment. We are very blessed to have great kids who are (knock on wood) doing well. So we have gotten all we could ask for in terms of our #1 priority. To the extent that our marriage has been dedicated to our children and not ourselves, so far it has been successful.

As we pass into a different stage of life, we may wish we had invested more in other aspects of the relationship. Or had made different choices years ago. But what is done cannot be undone. We have a perfectly pleasant companionate marriage. We will attend movies and comedy shows and share meals together. We will visit our children and God willing some day grandchildren and share the joy at their journey through life.

It may not be the marriage you would wish for yourself of for someone you care about. Fortunately, you do not have to live in our marriage. For me, what we have now far surpasses what we had before. Before it was, for me, living hell. Now it is a wool sweater - scratchy and irritating against bare skin, but after a while you learn to wear the appropriate thickness of shirt underneath and it is quite functional to keep our the cold on a chilly winter's day.


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## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> We were both decent well-intentioned people. .


Sure. But what you entered into is not what most people think of as marriage. You are describing a boxing match where the winner gets what they want, her a **** ton of money she did not have to work for and you sex. No wonder precious few people recognize that as marriage and this thread has gone on for approaching decades.


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## FieryHairedLady

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, I understand I was at fault for not paying more attention.
> Let us put the amounts in context. I authorized $30k. She spent about $200k. Is that "losing track"? Is that "going over budget"?
> We did not do "renovations" except to put down new flooring in the kitchen. We did not knock down walls. We did not redo cabinets. We kept almost all the same appliances (I think we got a new refrigerator). Mostly just bought furnishings for the living room.
> She bought a $1500 throw pillow. She bought $20,000 drapes. Those are not contractor overrun issues. Yes, bad on me for not imagining that it was possible to spend $20,000 on drapes much less that my wife would actually do so.
> Yes, I was lazy and negligent. I should have had daily meetings to go over each purchase and review the cost and compare it to our budget.
> My bad.
> Not my first error in judgment. Won't be my last.
> Affects my view of the betrayal not at all.


Yes I guess you could of been a little more watchful. But why should you have to be? This is the woman you married and trusted your life, future and kids with. If you said $30,000, she should of let you know if the renovations would be higher and discuss before anything is put in.

$20,000 drapes!?!?!

A $1,500 throw pillow?!?!

Get out of here.

That is redamndiculous.

That is not over budget.

That is the sky is the limit.

She is a SAHM, there is no reason she can not keep a reasonable household budget and not put you both into serious debt.

Shame on her.


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## 2020hindsight

Holdingontoit said:


> We were both decent well-intentioned people. We thought that we had what the other needed. Time and experience has taught us otherwise. Both of us prioritized child care over personal fulfillment. We are very blessed to have great kids who are (knock on wood) doing well. So we have gotten all we could ask for in terms of our #1 priority. To the extent that our marriage has been dedicated to our children and not ourselves, so far it has been successful.
> 
> As we pass into a different stage of life, we may wish we had invested more in other aspects of the relationship. Or had made different choices years ago. But what is done cannot be undone. We have a perfectly pleasant companionate marriage. We will attend movies and comedy shows and share meals together. We will visit our children and God willing some day grandchildren and share the joy at their journey through life.
> 
> It may not be the marriage you would wish for yourself of for someone you care about. Fortunately, you do not have to live in our marriage. For me, what we have now far surpasses what we had before. Before it was, for me, living hell. Now it is a wool sweater - scratchy and irritating against bare skin, but after a while you learn to wear the appropriate thickness of shirt underneath and it is quite functional to keep our the cold on a chilly winter's day.


Now this makes me really wonder what your parents' marriage is like. And I equally wonder what the marriage of your wife's parents could possibly have been like. Perhaps the answer to all this dysfunction lies in those two marriages.


----------



## Holdingontoit

NobodySpecial said:


> Sure. But what you entered into is not what most people think of as marriage. You are describing a boxing match where the winner gets what they want, her a **** ton of money she did not have to work for and you sex. No wonder precious few people recognize that as marriage and this thread has gone on for approaching decades.


Lately H2 has been saying "I love you" more frequently than she ever did before. She complains if I stay up late or push myself by working long hours. She seems genuinely concerned that I stay healthy and live a long time with her. Who woulda thunk it, maybe she actually likes being married to me?

Like I said, I know many people would not want to stay in a marriage likes ours. Fortunately, no one else has to.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Pleasant long weekend with H2. She admitted that she was not "all in" on our marriage at the beginning. She said she felt anxious around me and not relaxed for the first 20+ years of our marriage. She says lately she feels safe and relaxed when I am around. She said there is nothing about me that is different. That I am the same excitable neurotic person that I always was. She said that she is the one who has changed.

I thanked her for sharing her thoughts. I told her I am glad she can finally relax around me. 

I did not mention that something HAS changed about me. I no longer try to have sex with her. Seems my idea to never again have sex with her was a good one. She finally enjoys being married to me. If I am staying (and I am), that is a good thing.


----------



## Holdingontoit

uhtred said:


> Doesn't your approach suggest that if you did end up with money you might hire a high class escort? That seems like a valid thing for her to be worried about.


Did not want to hijack the "Do Women Have Empathy" thread so moving this here.
@uhtred: No, not really. For at least 2 reasons.

First, we have tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt, a six figure mortgage, and a house that needs lots of work (kitchen, all 3 bathrooms, roof, to name a few big ticket items). So this isn't about suddenly having an extra $1,000. if I have any extra money, it goes to paying down debt. If I suddenly had enough money to pay down all the debt and fix the house (hit Powerball?), she shouldn't worry that I would run to a high class hooker, she should worry that I would file for divorce.

Second, all that shame. I don't want to go to a hooker, high class or not. I would not enjoy it. I would not feel proud of myself for being able to afford it. I would feel like a loser who has to explicitly pay for sex. No, I don't have any illusions that I will ever be able to find a woman willing to have sex with me without me paying for it. But I like to pay for it by dating or marrying a woman and taking her to dinner, a show, etc. I don't like the explicit exchange where I hand her money and she has sex with me right then and there. I like to at least pretend she finds me attractive enough to have sex with.


----------



## uhtred

That part where you would not want a high class hooker even if you could afford it is the argument I like. I can afford a high class hooker, and I travel for business a lot. My wife knows that I could find a way to pay a few K$ for a hooker and she would never find out. So she has to rely on the combination of my not wanting that and my not wanting to violate my marriage vows. 

The first is completely true - to me desire is critical to enjoying sex. Having to pay for a woman to desire me would just be humiliating. I live with the fantasy that I can get hot women just based on my desirability, but that I don't because I am loyal to my wife. I never want to break / challenge that fantasy. 




Holdingontoit said:


> Did not want to hijack the "Do Women Have Empathy" thread so moving this here.
> 
> @uhtred: No, not really. For at least 2 reasons.
> 
> First, we have tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt, a six figure mortgage, and a house that needs lots of work (kitchen, all 3 bathrooms, roof, to name a few big ticket items). So this isn't about suddenly having an extra $1,000. if I have any extra money, it goes to paying down debt. If I suddenly had enough money to pay down all the debt and fix the house (hit Powerball?), she shouldn't worry that I would run to a high class hooker, she should worry that I would file for divorce.
> 
> Second, all that shame. I don't want to go to a hooker, high class or not. I would not enjoy it. I would not feel proud of myself for being able to afford it. I would feel like a loser who has to explicitly pay for sex. No, I don't have any illusions that I will ever be able to find a woman willing to have sex with me without me paying for it. But I like to pay for it by dating or marrying a woman and taking her to dinner, a show, etc. I don't like the explicit exchange where I hand her money and she has sex with me right then and there. I like to at least pretend she finds me attractive enough to have sex with.


----------



## 269370

uhtred said:


> That part where you would not want a high class hooker even if you could afford it is the argument I like. I can afford a high class hooker, and I travel for business a lot. My wife knows that I could find a way to pay a few K$ for a hooker and she would never find out. So she has to rely on the combination of my not wanting that and my not wanting to violate my marriage vows.
> 
> The first is completely true - to me desire is critical to enjoying sex. Having to pay for a woman to desire me would just be humiliating. I live with the fantasy that I can get hot women just based on my desirability, but that I don't because I am loyal to my wife. I never want to break / challenge that fantasy.


I am not sure actually. Paying for a service should not be underestimated IMO...People pay for psychiatrists to meet their emotional needs why is it different for sexual need? The only reason the rational mind in me is saying I shouldn't (and wouldn't) is because I don't believe the 'service provided' in that department will be of good quality and because of potential STD's. If I had a partner who was completely unwilling to engage with me in any sexual activity, but for whatever reason I had to stay with them, I think in theory, the high class escort thing is the appropriate compromise.

FWIW I liked Holdingontoit's response re not wanting *to pay* for a lap dance


----------



## uhtred

For me paying for sex wouldn't work because it wouldn't provide the ego boost that is critical to my enjoyment.

For comparison: It would be great to be giving a prestigious award for my work and get a round of honest applause from a room full of people who's opinions I value. But paying 50 people to applaud me really wouldn't be the same. 

Purely physical sex just isn't that interesting. How is having sex with a woman who is only doing it for money any different than using a blow-up doll? At least the dool isn't thinking about what a looser you are while saying "ooh great, you are so great, ooh do it harder you awesome man you". A high priced hooker would be better at acting and would be believable - except that I would *know* that I had paid her. 

I could imagine enjoying having sex with a woman who wanted me (not that I'm going to do it) but the appeal is there. A hooker though just seems less desirable than a blow-up doll






inmyprime said:


> I am not sure actually. Paying for a service should not be underestimated IMO...People pay for psychiatrists to meet their emotional needs why is it different for sexual need? The only reason the rational mind in me is saying I shouldn't (and wouldn't) is because I don't believe the 'service provided' in that department will be of good quality and because of potential STD's. If I had a partner who was completely unwilling to engage with me in any sexual activity, but for whatever reason I had to stay with them, I think in theory, the high class escort thing is the appropriate compromise.
> 
> FWIW I liked Holdingontoit's response re not wanting *to pay* for a lap dance


----------



## Fozzy

Holdingontoit said:


> Did not want to hijack the "Do Women Have Empathy" thread so moving this here.
> 
> @uhtred: No, not really. For at least 2 reasons.
> 
> First, we have tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt, a six figure mortgage, and a house that needs lots of work (kitchen, all 3 bathrooms, roof, to name a few big ticket items). So this isn't about suddenly having an extra $1,000. if I have any extra money, it goes to paying down debt. If I suddenly had enough money to pay down all the debt and fix the house (hit Powerball?), she shouldn't worry that I would run to a high class hooker, she should worry that I would file for divorce.
> 
> Second, all that shame. I don't want to go to a hooker, high class or not. I would not enjoy it. I would not feel proud of myself for being able to afford it. I would feel like a loser who has to explicitly pay for sex. No, I don't have any illusions that I will ever be able to find a woman willing to have sex with me without me paying for it. But I like to pay for it by dating or marrying a woman and taking her to dinner, a show, etc. I don't like the explicit exchange where I hand her money and she has sex with me right then and there. I like to at least pretend she finds me attractive enough to have sex with.





uhtred said:


> That part where you would not want a high class hooker even if you could afford it is the argument I like. I can afford a high class hooker, and I travel for business a lot. My wife knows that I could find a way to pay a few K$ for a hooker and she would never find out. So she has to rely on the combination of my not wanting that and my not wanting to violate my marriage vows.
> 
> The first is completely true - to me desire is critical to enjoying sex. Having to pay for a woman to desire me would just be humiliating. I live with the fantasy that I can get hot women just based on my desirability, but that I don't because I am loyal to my wife. I never want to break / challenge that fantasy.





inmyprime said:


> I am not sure actually. Paying for a service should not be underestimated IMO...People pay for psychiatrists to meet their emotional needs why is it different for sexual need? The only reason the rational mind in me is saying I shouldn't (and wouldn't) is because I don't believe the 'service provided' in that department will be of good quality and because of potential STD's. If I had a partner who was completely unwilling to engage with me in any sexual activity, but for whatever reason I had to stay with them, I think in theory, the high class escort thing is the appropriate compromise.
> 
> FWIW I liked Holdingontoit's response re not wanting *to pay* for a lap dance


Guys, guys guys....


It's all about robots now.


----------



## 269370

Yes I know but that's why you pay her money, and not get married to the hooker 
As for how to deal with the ego boost, you go to the shrink 



uhtred said:


> For me paying for sex wouldn't work because it wouldn't provide the ego boost that is critical to my enjoyment.
> 
> For comparison: It would be great to be giving a prestigious award for my work and get a round of honest applause from a room full of people who's opinions I value. But paying 50 people to applaud me really wouldn't be the same.
> 
> Purely physical sex just isn't that interesting. How is having sex with a woman who is only doing it for money any different than using a blow-up doll? At least the dool isn't thinking about what a looser you are while saying "ooh great, you are so great, ooh do it harder you awesome man you". A high priced hooker would be better at acting and would be believable - except that I would *know* that I had paid her.
> 
> I could imagine enjoying having sex with a woman who wanted me (not that I'm going to do it) but the appeal is there. A hooker though just seems less desirable than a blow-up doll


----------



## notmyrealname4

.


----------



## 269370

notmyrealname4 said:


> Your wife may not desire you [much].
> 
> 
> A hooker finds you disgusting.


I am not sure which one would be worse actually.

Actually I would be more devastated about the first one for sure.

Do you require the waiter who waits on you to truly be interested in providing you with an excellent service, beyond getting a good tip? Do you require your shrink to be truly interested in your problems beyond being paid for listening (and perhaps make you say something insightful?) 

I think one should set out with the right expectations. That also applies to going into a marriage as well. I would say the 'deal' when it comes to marriages is much more murky (expectations vs reality) than going to a hooker. The latter is straightforward (even if straightforwardly depressing).


----------



## Holdingontoit

uhtred said:


> For me paying for sex wouldn't work because it wouldn't provide the ego boost that is critical to my enjoyment.


This. Same mechanism at work for me. No ego boost. I know everything she is doing is faked. I would rather jerk off. I don't have to pay my hand to be willing to do that for me.


----------



## uhtred

I've got no problems with sex robots. Just a more sophisticated sex toy. 



Fozzy said:


> Guys, guys guys....
> 
> 
> It's all about robots now.


----------



## uhtred

But shrinks are even more expensive than hookers.

Hmm, I wonder if you can pay for hookers with health insurance - if you can show that they will fix your depression for less money than shrinks or drugs...




inmyprime said:


> Yes I know but that's why you pay her money, and not get married to the hooker
> As for how to deal with the ego boost, you go to the shrink


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> This. Same mechanism at work for me. No ego boost. I know everything she is doing is faked. I would rather jerk off. I don't have to pay my hand to be willing to do that for me.


I guess I find it hard to equate sex = ego boost. (In theory: I would NOT go to a hooker, for different reasons).


----------



## 269370

uhtred said:


> But shrinks are even more expensive than hookers.
> 
> Hmm, I wonder if you can pay for hookers with health insurance - if you can show that they will fix your depression for less money than shrinks or drugs...


I think first step would be to legalise prostitution (or rather, 'sex services') tax and control it and make it an 'acceptable' profession instead of keeping it underground and quasi-legal.
This would limit the sex slave/drug problem to some extent.
It's the oldest profession anyway, why keep it semi-legal?


----------



## Holdingontoit

Fozzy said:


> It's all about robots now.


See, if I were a woman in a sexless marriage, I imagine I would definitely consider getting a Symbian machine. Again, the downside is no ego boost. But the upside is that it might well be able to do a better job than my hand or hand + vibrator. Whereas for me, as a guy, jacking off is not about sensation it is about mental image. I am sure that is a big portion of the enjoyment for women as well. But I get the impression that for women there is a fairly large difference in sensation between good technique vs bad technique, body parts vs toys, etc. In my (admittedly very limited) experience as a guy, difference in technique or hand vs vagina is not a difference in sensation nearly as much as it is a difference in ego boost / internal mental imagery.


----------



## Holdingontoit

uhtred said:


> Hmm, I wonder if you can pay for hookers with health insurance - if you can show that they will fix your depression for less money than shrinks or drugs...


But that is the point. For me, going to a hooker would not fix or even reduce my depression. It would make it worse. Paying for sex makes me feel even more worthless than trying and failing to find a woman who will have sex with me without my handing her a stack of currency. Hookers don't help me more than shrinks, they help me less. And shrinks never helped much either.

Bottom line: I had been going to shrinks for over a decade and was active in both individual and group therapy at the time I went to the hooker. I never went to another hooker. I kept going to shrinks hundreds of times for another couple of decades. That is how bad I feel after going to a hooker.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> See, if I were a woman in a sexless marriage, I imagine I would definitely consider getting a Symbian machine. Again, the downside is no ego boost. But the upside is that it might well be able to do a better job than my hand or hand + vibrator. Whereas for me, as a guy, jacking off is not about sensation it is about mental image. I am sure that is a big portion of the enjoyment for women as well. But I get the impression that for women there is a fairly large difference in sensation between good technique vs bad technique, body parts vs toys, etc. In my (admittedly very limited) experience as a guy, difference in technique or hand vs vagina is not a difference in sensation nearly as much as it is a difference in ego boost / internal mental imagery.


You are possibly right (that there's a difference between how majority of women and majority of men view/experience sex).
I am not sure I would have called it 'ego boost'. To me it's the fact that sex = emotional connection. It's not so much for the ego as it is for the 'soul', feeling sexually desired/valued from your partner is one of the most important things and for a man, feeling they are being sexually desired by his woman is one of the most effective ways for her to show it (IMO). 
Whereas I have noticed that many women find that being sexually desired = demeaning = they feel like they are just being used like a hole. There's clearly a disconnect sometimes.

Btw you can also go on dates/dinners with escorts and have meaningful conversations and then enjoy the sex (apparently!). Not something you can do with a sex robot (though who knows, the way technology/AI advances...).


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> I guess I find it hard to equate sex = ego boost. (In theory: I would NOT go to a hooker, for different reasons).


That is one of many differences between us. All to your credit.
To me, sex is almost entirely about the ego boost. I got her to have sex with me. She seemed to like it. She was willing to do it again. All of that indicates, to me, that I do have some value as a man and a human. Maybe it shouldn't. But it does.

The sensation is almost entirely irrelevant. If I had to rank my 10 or 50 or 100 best orgasms, I am guessing that very few would involve partner sex and almost all of them were produced via masturbation. Now, that is a biased result because I have masturbated probably about 50 - 70 times as many times as I have had sex. So not only is the sample size larger but I am far more skilled at masturbation than at partner sex. So as a matter of probability that most of my best orgasms would be from masturbation. But that also shows that sex is not, for me, from a matter of sensation, substantially superior to masturbation.

I didn't seek partner sex solely or even primarily because it felt so good. I sought partner sex almost entirely for the ego boost. Now that I realize the high probability that none of my partners enjoyed it and they just did it to humor / entrap me, I no longer seek partner sex.


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure I would have called it 'ego boost'. To me it's the fact that sex = emotional connection. It's not so much for the ego as it is for the 'soul', feeling sexually desired/valued from your partner is one of the most important things and for a man, feeling they are being sexually desired by his woman is one of the most effective ways for her to show it (IMO).


Yes, emotional connection is part of it as well. Another reason why going to a hooker, legal or illegal, would not be of interest to me. I am not going to feel any emotional connection to her, either.

Conversely, that is one of the reasons (besides being hideous, autistic and socially inept) that I never cheated. I knew I would immediately become very emotionally attached to any woman who consented to have sex with me. If I cheated, I would have found it impossible to hold back from leaving my wife. So if I did not want to get divorced (and I didn't), I could not afford to have sex with anyone else.


----------



## 269370

No, I agree that it can be a big part of the appeal. (I just didn't like to call it ego boost because it sounds slightly derogatory). 
I think that if you are denied it constantly, then the ego definitely starts to hurt because you start to question your validity, your purpose in the relationship at all, beyond being a human wallet.
I think if you do have regular sex, then you just don't view it so much as an 'ego boost' but more of a connection/validation with/from your partner.

Words are so limited.




Holdingontoit said:


> That is one of many differences between us. All to your credit.
> To me, sex is almost entirely about the ego boost. I got her to have sex with me. *She seemed to like it. She was willing to do it again. All of that indicates, to me, that I do have some value as a man and a human. Maybe it shouldn't. But it does.*
> 
> The sensation is almost entirely irrelevant. If I had to rank my 10 or 50 or 100 best orgasms, I am guessing that very few would involve partner sex and almost all of them were produced via masturbation. Now, that is a biased result because I have masturbated probably about 50 - 70 times as many times as I have had sex. So not only is the sample size larger but I am far more skilled at masturbation than at partner sex. So as a matter of probability that most of my best orgasms would be from masturbation. But that also shows that sex is not, for me, from a matter of sensation, substantially superior to masturbation.
> 
> I didn't seek partner sex solely or even primarily because it felt so good. I sought partner sex almost entirely for the ego boost. Now that I realize the high probability that none of my partners enjoyed it and they just did it to humor / entrap me, I no longer seek partner sex.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> I knew I would immediately become very emotionally attached to any woman who consented to have sex with me. If I cheated, I would have found it impossible to hold back from leaving my wife. So if I did not want to get divorced (and I didn't), I could not afford to have sex with anyone else.


That's why dating an escort is probably not for everyone. Perhaps only for someone who needs a temporary 'boost', a connection (and sex) but who is determined not to change any other aspects of their lives.
****, it sounds as if I am going to start validating affairs now...
I think it's 'cleaner' if you had to *pay* for it, because of no strings attached and no chance of the 'escort' marrying you or ruining other aspects of your life...

Although I do have a colleague who did exactly that (married a high class escort). It ended terribly: he was quite wealthy and maybe got a "Pretty Woman, the film" complex: it (obviously) didn't work out and she began to sense that he was about to break up with her: she began collecting evidence that he was abusive/harassing her and tried to take him for everything he had. Basically it ended up being a legal nightmare for him and a very expensive mistake.
So best to keep it 'professional' and if one is not able to, leave it alone.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I guess if I mostly enjoyed the act of sex itself and not so much the impact on my self-image and the potential emotional connection, then I would agree with you. Hire a prostitute for "string-free" sex. As they say, you don't pay a prostitute for the sex, you pay them to leave when you are done. And not come back unless you call them again.


----------



## john117

Ego can be boosted by many means. Sex would be fairly low on my ego boost list - I'm a bit of an attention wh0re, the creative spirit. 

Above all, I don't let some irrelevant wench dictate the success KPI's of my life. Fourty years ago, I did. Like all teenagers.


----------



## Holdingontoit

john117 said:


> Ego can be boosted by many means. Sex would be fairly low on my ego boost list - I'm a bit of an attention wh0re, the creative spirit.
> 
> Above all, I don't let some irrelevant wench dictate the success KPI's of my life. Fourty years ago, I did. Like all teenagers.


Well, I never said I matured past the teenager stage.

Partner sex is the only criterion by which my ego gets measured. Hence my miserable self-image.


----------



## chillymorn69

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, I never said I matured past the teenager stage.
> 
> Partner sex is the only criterion by which my ego gets measured. Hence my miserable self-image.


There you go give yourself the gift of not using partnered sex as your ruler for success.

Besides if you can make love to a womans brain it don't matter how good between the sheets you are because the biggest sex organ is the brain.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, I never said I matured past the teenager stage.
> 
> Partner sex is the only criterion by which my ego gets measured. Hence my miserable self-image.


Do you have the ability to measure your ego with other criteria?

If not, have you considered how convenient that is for part of your brain, the part that feels miserable and deserving of miserable? As long as partner sex is the criterion, and as long as you are married to the sexless partner you have, then there is nothing left to figure out or do?

Perhaps your brain rationalizes, like most of ours do at times, attempting to make sense of an uncomfortable state by pinning it on something/someone commonly nearby and easy target?

You have a lot of good qualities to measure yourself against. There are lots of things in this world one can engage with and get good feelings and validation in return besides a wife uninterested/unavailable for sex, for whatever reasons.


----------



## Holdingontoit

PieceOfSky said:


> Do you have the ability to measure your ego with other criteria?


No. This is how I have measured myself since I hit puberty. It did not start with meeting or marrying H2. To me, switching to another criteria would be "cheating reality" and an admission of permanent defeat.
Now, as you point out, even keeping to the same criteria, I am only going to experience defeat if I stay with H2. I have resigned myself to living with permanent and total defeat.
You are correct that this is my reaction to "self protect". If I am doomed to defeat, then no point in making the effort to avert it. My line of reasoning supports my desired outcome of being lazy. Guilty as charged.


----------



## Holdingontoit

To any of you who question whether my wife truly was raped or that the rapes affect our sex life, last night we got another bit of evidence that I think supports my analysis.

We were watching the Grammy awards. Kesha sang "Praying" with many female stars as a choir to support her. It was very moving and powerful. I had tears in my eyes at the end. I turned to my wife. She said "what?" in a loud an annoyed tone.
I said "I hate the guys who did those awful things to you. I want to shoot them, beat them, slice them into little pieces."
She said "I can't do this. It is too overwhelming. I can't talk about it"

Back in MC, after she admitted to having been raped, whenever I asked her to talk about it, she always said "there is no point, it is in the past and it does not affect me at all now, and our sexual difficulties have nothing to do with that".
Last night she didn't say "stop worrying about it, it is in the past." She said "it is too much, too overwhelming, and I can't talk about it". That is a very different message.

I came home late Saturday from a week apart. There was a little hand holding but no real physical connection. I am glad that I no longer expect or even hope for anything. I am glad I have taken the physical out of our marriage. I don't want to be on her #metoo list any longer.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Love what @As'laDain wrote to @Tron today on the Friends and Safe men thread.
That is how my wife feels. That is what she needs. I cannot give it to her. Best we remain sexless.


----------



## As'laDain

Holdingontoit said:


> Love what @As'laDain wrote to @Tron today on the Friends and Safe men thread.
> That is how my wife feels. That is what she needs. I cannot give it to her. Best we remain sexless.


best you remain sexless? WHY!?

you cant even get behind the act long enough to make the effect? 

i don't buy it.


----------



## Tron

Holdingontoit said:


> Love what @As'laDain wrote to @Tron today on the Friends and Safe men thread.
> That is how my wife feels. That is what she needs. I cannot give it to her. Best we remain sexless.


You give yourself so little credit.


----------



## As'laDain

Holdingontoit said:


> To any of you who question whether my wife truly was raped or that the rapes affect our sex life, last night we got another bit of evidence that I think supports my analysis.
> 
> We were watching the Grammy awards. Kesha sang "Praying" with many female stars as a choir to support her. It was very moving and powerful. I had tears in my eyes at the end. I turned to my wife. She said "what?" in a loud an annoyed tone.
> I said "I hate the guys who did those awful things to you. I want to shoot them, beat them, slice them into little pieces."
> She said "I can't do this. It is too overwhelming. I can't talk about it"
> 
> Back in MC, after she admitted to having been raped, whenever I asked her to talk about it, she always said "there is no point, it is in the past and it does not affect me at all now, and our sexual difficulties have nothing to do with that".
> Last night she didn't say "stop worrying about it, it is in the past." She said "it is too much, too overwhelming, and I can't talk about it". That is a very different message.
> 
> I came home late Saturday from a week apart. There was a little hand holding but no real physical connection. I am glad that I no longer expect or even hope for anything. I am glad I have taken the physical out of our marriage. I don't want to be on her #metoo list any longer.


fvck the goddamn #metoo list. you are her husband! if you cannot help guide her to normalization and healing, then NOBODY can. 

i dont get it... you are willing to give up something that will delight the absolute crap out of you. you WANT a vibrant sex life with your wife. you WANT to be able to please her. you want her to be able to enjoy every carnal pleasure she can. and you want to experience it with her, seeing her let go of the entire world and just exist in bliss for those brief but seemingly eternal seconds. 

what would you do if you were going to die tomorrow? every i deploy, i assume i will die. hell, my job has one of the highest casualty rates in the army. and most people dont even know we exist!

that said, i have a tendency to think a lot about what i want to do with my life. how i want to touch the lives of others. i have come close to dying a lot over the last decade. fvck the damn statistics. im not a fvcking statistic, and neither is my wife!

are you so in love with yourself that you cannot change the way you do things? where the hell is your anger? where the hell is your love?


----------



## Holdingontoit

> @As'laDain: where the hell is your anger? where the hell is your love?


I am angry at myself. I love my resentment. I polish it to a blinding sheen.

I am not trying to be happy or satisfied. I am not trying to lead her to healing. I am trying to enmesh her so tightly that she never leaves.

Some plot revenge that they will leave and live a happy life apart. Some plot revenge that they will cheat and assault their spouse with rejection. My revenge is that I am staying. She wanted to be married to me. She did not care if that was a good choice for either of us. Now she gets to be married to me. Stunted, broken, passive, abyss-seeking me. This is what she wanted. This is what she lied to get and to keep. This is what she deserves. This is what I am going to feed her in detestable abundance.

@As'laDain: My wife needs to be with a man like you. You could heal her. I am not that man. I cannot heal her. But I will keep her. Which keeps both of us tied to our dysfunction. Poetic justice.



@tron said:


> You give yourself so little credit.


No, I give myself precisely the credit I deserve. I am treating her exactly as she treated me. Her mistake was, as far as I can tell, wholly unintentional. Mine is fully conscious. She lied. To herself as well as me. She pretended. She deflected. She gave lip service to what she knew I wanted to hear while focusing laser sharp on what she wanted and what she thought was best for herself with no regard to what was best for me or for us together. I repay her in full measure. I give her what she asked for. What she demanded. Knowing full well it is not what she needs.

The plane is on fire. I grab a parachute. I beg her to hold me tight as we jump out of the burning wreck. She assumes I intend to save us. I have no intention of pulling the rip cord. Knowing that she will go down with me is my reward.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> The plane is on fire. I grab a parachute. I beg her to hold me tight as we jump out of the burning wreck. She assumes I intend to save us. I have no intention of pulling the rip cord. Knowing that she will go down with me is my reward.


I have seen black holes that aren't as dark as the place in which you live. I hope your venting here is therapeutic enough that we don't see you in the news some day.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I have seen black holes that aren't as dark as the place in which you live. I hope your venting here is therapeutic enough that we don't see you in the news some day.


Not to worry, I don't have the guts to do anything dramatic or overtly self-destructive. I am the king of passive-aggressive. I don't do actual aggressive.

And yes, this place and the others I frequent are sufficient to keep me distracted. No worries. I have been in this place since 2005. Very stable in my dysfunction.


----------



## As'laDain

Holdingontoit said:


> I am angry at myself. I love my resentment. I polish it to a blinding sheen.
> 
> I am not trying to be happy or satisfied. I am not trying to lead her to healing. I am trying to enmesh her so tightly that she never leaves.
> 
> Some plot revenge that they will leave and live a happy life apart. Some plot revenge that they will cheat and assault their spouse with rejection. My revenge is that I am staying. She wanted to be married to me. She did not care if that was a good choice for either of us. Now she gets to be married to me. Stunted, broken, passive, abyss-seeking me. This is what she wanted. This is what she lied to get and to keep. This is what she deserves. This is what I am going to feed her in detestable abundance.
> 
> @As'laDain: My wife needs to be with a man like you. You could heal her. I am not that man. I cannot heal her. But I will keep her. Which keeps both of us tied to our dysfunction. Poetic justice.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I give myself precisely the credit I deserve. I am treating her exactly as she treated me. Her mistake was, as far as I can tell, wholly unintentional. Mine is fully conscious. She lied. To herself as well as me. She pretended. She deflected. She gave lip service to what she knew I wanted to hear while focusing laser sharp on what she wanted and what she thought was best for herself with no regard to what was best for me or for us together. I repay her in full measure. I give her what she asked for. What she demanded. Knowing full well it is not what she needs.
> 
> The plane is on fire. I grab a parachute. I beg her to hold me tight as we jump out of the burning wreck. She assumes I intend to save us. I have no intention of pulling the rip cord. Knowing that she will go down with me is my reward.


well then, ill kindly let you fvck off. 

if the above is true, then you are the kind of trap that needs to be forgotten about.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Exactly. Like I said, I could never have done what you did.
First off, literally. I have never lasted 30 minutes inside a woman in my life. I would have been lucky to last 30 seconds in an emotionally charged situation. Certainly would have lost my hardon if I didn't go off.
And emotionally, I was too weak and reactive. I could not have remained calm. I could not have soothed her. The more upset she got, the more upset I would have gotten. The more my effort to actively calm her down failed, the more wound up both of us would have been.
She needed you. She got me. Pity for both her and me.


----------



## As'laDain

Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly. Like I said, I could never have done what you did.
> First off, literally. I have never lasted 30 minutes inside a woman in my life. I would have been lucky to last 30 seconds in an emotionally charged situation. Certainly would have lost my hardon if I didn't go off.
> And emotionally, I was too weak and reactive. I could not have remained calm. I could not have soothed her. The more upset she got, the more upset I would have gotten. The more my effort to actively calm her down failed, the more wound up both of us would have been.
> She needed you. She got me. Pity for both her and me.


if you were there, you would know how UN-erotic the whole thing was. and, i didnt stay completely hard. i didnt need to. i just needed to be able to let her know that it was ok to feel what she feels. that those feelings didnt have to rule her. 

don't ever try to calm someone down when they are worked up. validate what they are feeling! once they really feel like its ok to feel what they feel, the feeling goes away on its own. 

do you not know this?


----------



## 269370

As'laDain said:


> fvck the goddamn #metoo list. you are her husband! if you cannot help guide her to normalization and healing, then NOBODY can.
> 
> i dont get it... you are willing to give up something that will delight the absolute crap out of you. you WANT a vibrant sex life with your wife. you WANT to be able to please her. you want her to be able to enjoy every carnal pleasure she can. and you want to experience it with her, seeing her let go of the entire world and just exist in bliss for those brief but seemingly eternal seconds.


He doesn't though.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> I am angry at myself. I love my resentment. I polish it to a blinding sheen.
> 
> I am not trying to be happy or satisfied. I am not trying to lead her to healing. I am trying to enmesh her so tightly that she never leaves.
> 
> Some plot revenge that they will leave and live a happy life apart. Some plot revenge that they will cheat and assault their spouse with rejection. My revenge is that I am staying. She wanted to be married to me. She did not care if that was a good choice for either of us. Now she gets to be married to me. Stunted, broken, passive, abyss-seeking me. This is what she wanted. This is what she lied to get and to keep. This is what she deserves. This is what I am going to feed her in detestable abundance.
> 
> @As'laDain: My wife needs to be with a man like you. You could heal her. I am not that man. I cannot heal her. But I will keep her. Which keeps both of us tied to our dysfunction. Poetic justice.
> 
> 
> 
> No, I give myself precisely the credit I deserve. I am treating her exactly as she treated me. Her mistake was, as far as I can tell, wholly unintentional. Mine is fully conscious. She lied. To herself as well as me. She pretended. She deflected. She gave lip service to what she knew I wanted to hear while focusing laser sharp on what she wanted and what she thought was best for herself with no regard to what was best for me or for us together. I repay her in full measure. I give her what she asked for. What she demanded. Knowing full well it is not what she needs.
> 
> The plane is on fire. I grab a parachute. I beg her to hold me tight as we jump out of the burning wreck. She assumes I intend to save us. I have no intention of pulling the rip cord. Knowing that she will go down with me is my reward.


You are so funny...You keep forgetting or perhaps not noticing that she is most probably perfectly happy in the marriage and with the way things are. Maybe she wished a little more affection from you lately here and there, but 'taking sex off the table' as a revenge tactic has absolutely no effect on someone who isn't sex crazy (or not a man 
If you wanted to 'punish her for what she did to you', you should be having sex with her every day, instead of not giving her something that she doesn't particularly want anyway. You just keep punishing yourself, pretending it's her who is doing it. :scratchhead:
(Which she may have done years ago, probably unintentionally).

You remind me of this guy:


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly. Like I said, I could never have done what you did.
> First off, literally. I have never lasted 30 minutes inside a woman in my life.


First of all, that's not true. How about 9 months? 
(Unless you are planning to have sex with a sloth, I don't think many women will find it comfortable for you or anyone to be in there for 30 minutes+) 



Holdingontoit said:


> I would have been lucky to last 30 seconds in an emotionally charged situation. Certainly would have lost my hardon if I didn't go off.
> And emotionally, I was too weak and reactive. I could not have remained calm. I could not have soothed her. The more upset she got, the more upset I would have gotten. The more my effort to actively calm her down failed, the more wound up both of us would have been.
> She needed you. She got me. Pity for both her and me.


She needed you. She got you. That's where you are fundamentally wrong.
The rest is your imagination.


----------



## As'laDain

inmyprime said:


> He doesn't though.


touche!


----------



## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: you are correct that she does not mind taking sex off the table. She likes it. And I like it (compared to the alternative) because it frees her to be more pleasant and affectionate.

The revenge is that she wishes I loved her the way I loved her when we got married. She now realizes that what she took for lies "just to get into her pants" were true professions of devotion. And she knows I will never feel that way about her again. I pretend I still do. And she lets me pretend. But we both know we are both only pretending.

And you are correct that I do not want what @As'laDain asserted that I want. I do not believe it exists. I do not allow myself to want what I cannot afford or will never attain. I don't strive. I settle. Would you want to be married to me? I didn't think so. That is my revenge.


----------



## As'laDain

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: you are correct that she does not mind taking sex off the table. She likes it. And I like it (compared to the alternative) because it frees her to be more pleasant and affectionate.
> 
> The revenge is that she wishes I loved her the way I loved her when we got married. She now realizes that what she took for lies "just to get into her pants" were true professions of devotion. And she knows I will never feel that way about her again. I pretend I still do. And she lets me pretend. But we both know we are both only pretending.
> 
> And you are correct that I do not want what @As'laDain asserted that I want. I do not believe it exists. I do not allow myself to want what I cannot afford or will never attain. I don't strive. I settle. Would you want to be married to me? I didn't think so. That is my revenge.


i feel bad for your wife...


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## chillymorn69

Resentment at its finest.


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## Holdingontoit

@As'laDain: And now you know why it IS revenge. I got a beautiful woman to remain faithful to a dud. I got a good hearted educated successful woman to tie her wagon to a loser. Somehow I got her to stay with me. She could have done so much better. I could not have. I still can't believe I pulled this off.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Holdingontoit said:


> @As'laDain: And now you know why it IS revenge. I got a beautiful woman to remain faithful to a dud. I got a good hearted educated successful woman to tie her wagon to a loser. Somehow I got her to stay with me. She could have done so much better. I could not have. I still can't believe I pulled this off.


Who is the revenge against? You really don't sound like a very nice person.


----------



## As'laDain

Holdingontoit said:


> @As'laDain: And now you know why it IS revenge. I got a beautiful woman to remain faithful to a dud. I got a good hearted educated successful woman to tie her wagon to a loser. Somehow I got her to stay with me. She could have done so much better. I could not have. I still can't believe I pulled this off.


we are what we choose to be. with every thought and action you take, you are choosing to be who you are. intrinsically, there is no difference between you and I. except for who we choose to be.


----------



## As'laDain

NobodySpecial said:


> Who is the revenge against? You really don't sound like a very nice person.


he isn't.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Would you want to be married to me? I didn't think so. That is my revenge.


Could give it a go. Why not? :smile2:
You make me laugh, that counts for something


----------



## 269370

NobodySpecial said:


> Who is the revenge against? You really don't sound like a very nice person.


Nah. He's delightful :grin2:
He just likes to put himself down. 
Don't take everything people write on face value. It usually doesn't say that much about their character. Anybody can pretend to be anyone they want on an anonymous board, intentionally or unintentionally. When you meet people in real life, you often get a completely different picture. I met so many times someone who sounded like a complete jerk in email but really charming in person. And vice versa.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Don't worry about my wife or my affect.

My wife is thrilled to be married to me. I treat her very well. If you saw videotape of us interacting you would not feel sorry for her.

As @inmyprime suggests, all this talk is me running an elaborate game on myself. I don't have the guts to try to have a sex life, so I run an elaborate game on myself to create a secret revenge plot so I can lie to myself that I have not simply conceded the field to her and abdicated my responsibility to myself.

If you polled my colleagues at work, they would say I am one of the nicest people here. Always generous with my time. Typically warm and friendly to newcomers. I am tapped to do much of the training of "young'uns" because I am patient about explaining complex topics and find a way to inject humor into boring presentations.

I'm just a sicko when it comes to sex. And that is mostly between myself and I. I stopped trying to convince my wife to have more sex with me almost 13 years ago. I should accept the reality that she was correct and I was wrong. It is possible to be very happy without having any sex. She is. I could be if I chose to be. Instead I choose to be miserable. Despite that, I mostly do the right thing. Maybe not for precisely the right reasons, but how much does that really matter? If my wife likes getting love letters and foot rubs and shoulder massages and she gets them regularly, how much does it matter that I am a seething ball of resentment inside?

The only area where I "fail" her is that I am not nearly as successful professionally as I would be if I didn't waste so much time navel gazing and if I focused on advancing my career. That costs us financially. But we have a nice house in a suburb and she has a nice car and she was able to be a SAHM the entire time the kids were at home and now she has a part-time job she loves. So even if we never got as far money-wise as she imagined we would, it hasn't been all that bad for her. And I was an under-performer at work long before I met her, so she is not the cause of that.

The only one suffering here is me. And that is as it should be.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> The only one suffering here is me. And that is as it should be.


That’s where you’re wrong. Suffering isn’t a “should be”. Not even for a terrible decent guy like you.

And, you’re not exactly a one. There are different parts of you, some getting something out of your life’s work (“revenge”), and some getting snuffed out because of it.

I happen to like you, and could see how those around you oblivious to your internal games and masochism would enjoy being around you.

Based on the tightness of your hold on “it”, Id be surprised if there was any risk of you letting any of it go during that decade or more of therapy that you attended. We’re you open to letting anything go back then?

You say this thread is a warning of how not to let a sexless marriage deteriorate for so long — so people avoid becoming miserable like you. But, my understanding is you were miserable before you met her. And my guess is there is a part of you that has been very pleased to use her and her trauma as pretext/justification for keeping yourself down.

I’m not a praying man, but if I were I’d ask for those parts of you being held back, or all but snuffed out, to ask that part of you hellbent on revenge: What is it really trying to protect you from, and how might it be possible to loosen its grip on your soul and daily experience? Maybe it could put a little trust in the good parts of yourself — the parts you know exist and just described — to keep you safe from whatever it fears. At least just a little bit. You’re old enough and wise enough to be trusted a bit now.

I truly wish you peace.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@PieceOfSky: thank you. That was an insightful post. Generous of spirit. 

You are of course exactly correct. I started therapy at 17. Long before I met H2. No, I was not willing to let go of anything or make any changes. The therapist fired me because it was a waste of time and money. In hindsight he was the best therapist I ever saw. Saw others over the ensuing decades. Took AD and anti-anxiety meds. Nothing made any difference. I was never willing to let go or move even an inch.

The sick part of me has the decent part of me tied to iron pipes in the basement. The decent part will never escape. The sick part likes to hear him scream.


----------



## john117

My fellow psychologists will probably denounce me for saying this, but methinks that you have a lot of free time to think about things, especially mental state. 

Even at the heights of conflict between me and s-wife I was always busy and had little time to reflect on things. Even today, I'm always busy with work, kids, house, hobbies...

I suppose you are doing that otherwise you'd have gone wild years ago. And I have ADHD .


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## Holdingontoit

@john117: I have no friends or hobbies. Kids are out of the house. Gaming console broke. This is all I do besides work.


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## john117

Holdingontoit said:


> @john117: I have no friends or hobbies. Kids are out of the house. Gaming console broke. This is all I do besides work.


Kids (and s-wife) are out of the house as well but my to-do list would make a project manager proud... 

Get busy and do something meaningful 2ith your own time.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> @PieceOfSky: thank you. That was an insightful post. Generous of spirit.
> 
> You are of course exactly correct. I started therapy at 17. Long before I met H2. No, I was not willing to let go of anything or make any changes. The therapist fired me because it was a waste of time and money. In hindsight he was the best therapist I ever saw. Saw others over the ensuing decades. Took AD and anti-anxiety meds. Nothing made any difference. I was never willing to let go or move even an inch.
> 
> The sick part of me has the decent part of me tied to iron pipes in the basement. The decent part will never escape. The sick part likes to hear him scream.


Well, then, I’ll add another request to my would be prayer: that you would read this, become at least one intellectually curious about it, and connect with the fact the approach didn’t exist when you were 17 or a couple of decades after. It’s nothing the sick part needs to feel threatened about. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Family_Systems_Model


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

I think I would leave this article printed on the kitchen table.

https://forgivenwife.com/sexless-marriage-loveless-marriage/

Then follow the country song of buy a boat, a truck to pull it, a Yeti 110 stocked with beer.

Call up friends, relatives, or find a single mom with little kids that want to go fishing, and go fishing.

Don't let resentment eat you up.


----------



## john117

The Forgiven Wife site has to be about the biggest waste of disk drive space I've seen. As someone that understands a fair amount of how people think, the whole idea that some wives (sic) need to be told these obvious things is beyond laughable, it's patronizing to them and their unfortunate husbands.

I'm not saying I disagree with what they say. It's right on the money. But the premise outright is flawed.


----------



## chillymorn69

john117 said:


> The Forgiven Wife site has to be about the biggest waste of disk drive space I've seen. As someone that understands a fair amount of how people think, the whole idea that some wives (sic) need to be told these obvious things is beyond laughable, it's patronizing to them and their unfortunate husbands.
> 
> I'm not saying I disagree with what they say. It's right on the money. But the premise outright is flawed.


Really you speak for all wives?


----------



## john117

chillymorn69 said:


> Really you speak for all wives?


I speak of all people. Do we really need to be told such things?

Is there a "the forgiven honey I burned the lasagna wife" page or a "the forgiven honey I drove the lawnmower over the rose bushes husband" page ???

If some people won't bother learning things without life reaching critical mass, then no website will save them.


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

john117 said:


> The Forgiven Wife site has to be about the biggest waste of disk drive space I've seen. As someone that understands a fair amount of how people think, the whole idea that some wives (sic) need to be told these obvious things is beyond laughable, it's patronizing to them and their unfortunate husbands.
> 
> I'm not saying I disagree with what they say. It's right on the money. But the premise outright is flawed.


I disagree, my wife for years had a chip on her shoulder, I gave her this link - https://forgivenwife.com/archives-unbearable-lessons/ and said STOP IT.

I told her many times over the years that I'm not like any of the past men she has dealt with. Didn't register with her. 

My observation is anything I said was met with her thinking "He's just saying that to get in my pants".

Having a woman author articles & what sex is in marriage, made her change mind more than I ever could.

** Although I also had to say "I'm tired of living this way & if things don't change we are DONE!"

Sometimes the obvious has to be stated. Look at how often people come to TAM so deeply mired in the crap, they can't see the 50,000 foot view. After a few conversations, they at least can make decisions on which way to go, (hopefully).


----------



## john117

The social sciences guy in me is sceptical about it. Your example does not make it clear what caused the enlightenment, or more important, why the enlightenment was needed in the first place.

I just hired a new kid with a PhD in AI. I will have to show him the inner workings of the lab, but the basics should be understood. I'll show him the infernal Kronos HR system for time entry but I won't tell him work is 8 hours a day and that the annual CES in Las Vegas is in January. 

A lot of things are assumed in marriage. A lot. An awfully large number. It is assumed you live in the same place, share a bed, chores, income, and so on. This is not up for "discovery". 

These assumptions are based on culture, religion, upbringing, and many other things. It took a bit to convince my s-wife that our money is our money, not hers, not mine.in her culture it ain't so. 

If I have to explain to the AI kid that we really have to wrap up CES work in November and debug December, it's one thing. But quite another if I have to explain to him that like Google, only 10% of his time should go to pet projects, and 90% on lab projects. If he's spending 50% of his time inventing an AI controlled crock pot...


----------



## 269370

john117 said:


> The Forgiven Wife site has to be about the biggest waste of disk drive space I've seen. As someone that understands a fair amount of how people think, the whole idea that some wives (sic) need to be told these obvious things is beyond laughable, it's patronizing to them and their unfortunate husbands.
> 
> I'm not saying I disagree with what they say. It's right on the money. But the premise outright is flawed.



I read it. I think a lot of wives don’t have a clue about this. Maybe some do but why would men assume that they do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117

inmyprime said:


> I read it. I think a lot of wives don’t have a clue about this. Maybe some do but why would men assume that they do?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Because they're grown up women who did not grow up locked up in a compound...


----------



## FrazzledSadHusband

john117 said:


> The social sciences guy in me is sceptical about it. Your example does not make it clear what caused the enlightenment, or more important, why the enlightenment was needed in the first place.
> 
> I just hired a new kid with a PhD in AI. I will have to show him the inner workings of the lab, but the basics should be understood. I'll show him the infernal Kronos HR system for time entry but I won't tell him work is 8 hours a day and that the annual CES in Las Vegas is in January.
> 
> A lot of things are assumed in marriage. A lot. An awfully large number. It is assumed you live in the same place, share a bed, chores, income, and so on. This is not up for "discovery".
> 
> These assumptions are based on culture, religion, upbringing, and many other things. It took a bit to convince my s-wife that our money is our money, not hers, not mine.in her culture it ain't so.
> 
> If I have to explain to the AI kid that we really have to wrap up CES work in November and debug December, it's one thing. But quite another if I have to explain to him that like Google, only 10% of his time should go to pet projects, and 90% on lab projects. If he's spending 50% of his time inventing an AI controlled crock pot...


I have been in IT for 25+ years, I have a co-worker that has been there over 30. Super smart guy, but when he has a new system going in, my boss has me do all the end-user training.

I asked her why, she said "When he goes & trains, I get complaints and upper mgmt wants him fired. He doesn't mean to, but he comes across as condescending. When you go, I get no complaints"

The guy would give you the shirt off his back, but he does not present well.

I think it is the same with the Forgivenwife site. She's addressing issues on a more emotional level and coming from a different direction.

It's all in the presentation.

Not to mention, most women have had someone trying to get into their pants since before puberty. So a husband wanting to discuss sex is already at a disadvantage.


----------



## 269370

john117 said:


> The social sciences guy in me is sceptical about it. Your example does not make it clear what caused the enlightenment, or more important, why the enlightenment was needed in the first place.
> 
> I just hired a new kid with a PhD in AI. I will have to show him the inner workings of the lab, but the basics should be understood. I'll show him the infernal Kronos HR system for time entry but I won't tell him work is 8 hours a day and that the annual CES in Las Vegas is in January.
> 
> A lot of things are assumed in marriage. A lot. An awfully large number. It is assumed you live in the same place, share a bed, chores, income, and so on. This is not up for "discovery".
> 
> These assumptions are based on culture, religion, upbringing, and many other things. It took a bit to convince my s-wife that our money is our money, not hers, not mine.in her culture it ain't so.
> 
> If I have to explain to the AI kid that we really have to wrap up CES work in November and debug December, it's one thing. But quite another if I have to explain to him that like Google, only 10% of his time should go to pet projects, and 90% on lab projects. If he's spending 50% of his time inventing an AI controlled crock pot...



I think it’s more like hiring someone to work with AI and expect them to understand it, but they actually trained to work at Walmart previously. Not that understanding man’s drive requires such advanced knowledge...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

john117 said:


> Because they're grown up women who did not grow up locked up in a compound...




Nothing to do with that though. Someone who doesn’t experience things the same way, will have trouble relating or understanding what the issue is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117

inmyprime said:


> Nothing to do with that though. Someone who doesn’t experience things the same way, will have trouble relating or understanding what the issue is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They will be expected to act according to prevailing stereotypes.

A wife in Afghanistan will be expected to do A, B, and C. One in Los Angeles X, Y, and Z. I can understand - and experienced - cross cultural marriage. But the issues cropped up after 25 years of good marriage and 25 years of living in America. By then expectations should be obvious, and if not, openly discussed and agreed upon. In my case, stupid as it sounds, and regardless of other issues, she decided that 50+ is the time where intimacy is "for other people". Because in her culture - from 30 years past - that's how everyone thought everyone else behaved. 

Consider Indian marriage. It's common for Indians to support their parents. Other cultures too. But an Indian married to a Yankee should expect major issues if she proceeds to the Western Union office without Yank's knowledge and consent.


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## 269370

john117 said:


> They will be expected to act according to prevailing stereotypes.
> 
> A wife in Afghanistan will be expected to do A, B, and C. One in Los Angeles X, Y, and Z. I can understand - and experienced - cross cultural marriage. But the issues cropped up after 25 years of good marriage and 25 years of living in America. By then expectations should be obvious, and if not, openly discussed and agreed upon. In my case, stupid as it sounds, and regardless of other issues, she decided that 50+ is the time where intimacy is "for other people". Because in her culture - from 30 years past - that's how everyone thought everyone else behaved.
> 
> Consider Indian marriage. It's common for Indians to support their parents. Other cultures too. But an Indian married to a Yankee should expect major issues if she proceeds to the Western Union office without Yank's knowledge and consent.



I am not sure this is a cultural thing (in a way as you describe it). Haven’t you noticed that 90%+ of posts by men are basically about the same thing? (Sex-starved husbands).
If you were right, it would only apply to cross-cultural marriages...but it doesn’t.

Also, continuing your trail of thought, she must then be ‘expecting’ you to have a mistress and rape her from time to time, without having any say in it...(I’m not condoning rape, in case a feminist misreads it deliberately).



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## john117

It's not all cross culture but the odds are pretty indicative. And in her culture, it used to be acceptable to marry a second wife. Her grandfather did. I can only imagine the reasons. Given the general misery coming out of her mom's side of the family, I don't need to wonder much. 

Stereotypes are based on the truth. They apply to POPULATIONS and it's up to the INDIVIDUAL to make sure they dont, as Stalin put it, become a statistic.


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## 269370

john117 said:


> It's not all cross culture but the odds are pretty indicative. And in her culture, it used to be acceptable to marry a second wife. Her grandfather did. I can only imagine the reasons. Given the general misery coming out of her mom's side of the family, I don't need to wonder much.
> 
> Stereotypes are based on the truth. They apply to POPULATIONS and it's up to the INDIVIDUAL to make sure they dont, as Stalin put it, become a statistic.



I think you are putting the cart before the horse with your reasoning. Different cultures had different ways to DEAL with the same problem that opposite sex marriages have experienced for centuries if not millennia.

In your wife’s culture the solution may have been a second marriage, in other culture it might have been mistresses, others rape and so on. But The Problem remains THE SAME in any culture!

I know it may seem easier to blame those things on culture differences rather than an individual person but I really think it’s 90% biology! (And don’t forget your own biology).


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## john117

My specific case is - was  - culture based, but even within the same culture we see sexless marriages happen all the time. Meaning, there's other reasons. That does not explain why able bodied women (I'm just using women as an example) are simply sitting on the couch watching TV letting their marriage go to the gutter. 

I mean, did we get our Sex Ed from Al and Peggy Bundy or something? 

It all smells of extreme rationalization. The poor woman (or man) did not know that sex is what differentiates marriage from roommates. Let's put up an act till we have kids, then, wham!

We're rationalizing awful behavior here, and attributing it to ignorance. I'm not sure it's that easy.


----------



## Handy

*FrustratedH
my wife for years had a chip on her shoulder, I gave her this link - https://forgivenwife.com/archives-unbearable-lessons/ and said STOP IT.

I told her many times over the years that I'm not like any of the past men she has dealt with. Didn't register with her.

My observation is anything I said was met with her thinking "He's just saying that to get in my pants".

Having a woman author articles & what sex is in marriage, made her change mind more than I ever could.*

Frustrated. I know a few women that think women have gotten a raw deal for centuries and if a woman gives advice about a W being more sexual, it is because it benefits mostly men and the book or advice giver, at the individual woman's expense. I even heard a few women say websites or books like the "forgivenWife" are what is wrong with relationships and women in general needto do what makes "them happy," and not what keeps the relationship stable.

I am happy to hear the "ForgivenWife" website worked well for your relationship.


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## 269370

john117 said:


> My specific case is - was  - culture based, but even within the same culture we see sexless marriages happen all the time. Meaning, there's other reasons. T*hat does not explain why able bodied women (I'm just using women as an example) are simply sitting on the couch watching TV letting their marriage go to the gutter.*


It's because...biology. Maybe it's a little bit like expecting a penguin to fly? Even though it's a bird, we expect it to fly.
Many women don't put sex that high on their list of priorities and men are terrible at asking for it it seems...A loose-loose situation I am afraid.

Have you made it known to her in no uncertain terms? It's slightly different if it was made clear and nothing is done about it...Then I'd agree (depending on a few other factors) that it's awful behaviour.


----------



## john117

Not to pull rank here  but I spent 10 years studying psychology. It's NOT biology when she uses her culture as a reason - and judging from her friends from the same culture, it's not too difficult to understand from her point of view.

In her culture, I'm sure 58 year olds also don't run 10 miles a day, cycle 30, work, etc. And, her culture is 35 years ago and 5000 miles away. 

People adapt. Umm, biology...

Our issue is working hard to resolve itself. After 35 years together we separated a month ago. She took a job in another city and that was that. We tried counseling, but it was not telling her what she needs to hear so... 

Like any good research scientist, I came up with a pet theory about it. Sexlessness is caused by a mix of raw ignorance and pure evil. The more ignorance (forgiven wife style) the better the odds of fixing the issue. The more evilness, the less the chance of success. 

I suspect a lot of cases start as ignorance, then resentment creeps in, evil takes over, and that's all. 

By evil I mean intention, not the conventional meaning of the word. The forgiven wife stuff should work if you're 30. Not if you're 50 or 55.. you both know better.


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## 269370

john117 said:


> Not to pull rank here  but I spent 10 years studying psychology. It's NOT biology when she uses her culture as a reason -


Surely she is not using it as a reason but as an excuse? Not that it helps...



john117 said:


> and judging from her friends from the same culture, it's not too difficult to understand from her point of view.
> 
> In her culture, I'm sure 58 year olds also don't run 10 miles a day, cycle 30, work, etc. And, her culture is 35 years ago and 5000 miles away.
> 
> People adapt. Umm, biology...
> 
> Our issue is working hard to resolve itself. After 35 years together we separated a month ago. She took a job in another city and that was that. We tried counseling, but it was not telling her what she needs to hear so...
> 
> Like any good research scientist, I came up with a pet theory about it. Sexlessness is caused by a mix of raw ignorance and pure evil. The more ignorance (forgiven wife style) the better the odds of fixing the issue. The more evilness, the less the chance of success.
> 
> I suspect a lot of cases start as ignorance, then resentment creeps in, evil takes over, and that's all.
> 
> By evil I mean intention, not the conventional meaning of the word. The forgiven wife stuff should work if you're 30. Not if you're 50 or 55.. you both know better.


Intention is a tough one. Sorry to hear. I hate to see it when that happens.


----------



## Livvie

John does she not have a sex drive, then? She has energy for the other mentioned physical activities. 

Don't you think if she had a sex drive she'd want to be having regular sex, no matter what her culture of origin showed her? She managed to go beyond cultural expectations with her other physical activities re age, why not sex?


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## Holdingontoit

PieceofSky said:


> Try this new mode of therapy.


Nah. The exiles will never be unburdened. I will never let go of the shame.

I have been "split" for as long as I have been conscious. The firefighter has been in control my entire life. If I had married someone different (impossible, the firefighter would never have allowed it), then perhaps the exiles could have been unburdened. As it is, given my behavior over the past 25 years, all 3 parts of me fervently believe that the shame is deserved. The psychiatrist has not been born who can convince me that the exiles should be released and allowed to come "home".



FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Don't let resentment eat you up.


Way way way too late for that.


----------



## john117

Livvie said:


> John does she not have a sex drive, then? She has energy for the other mentioned physical activities.
> 
> Don't you think if she had a sex drive she'd want to be having regular sex, no matter what her culture of origin showed her? She managed to go beyond cultural expectations with her other physical activities re age, why not sex?


She's pretty good in repressing any errand thoughts


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## 2020hindsight

john117 said:


> She's pretty good in repressing any errand thoughts


Or maybe she doesn't actually have any errant thoughts. We are not all the same. Desire exists on a continuum. For every person with a natural high desire for sex, there's a person with little or no desire at all. By nature.


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## john117

They all have thoughts. It's just that in their minds, the loss of control isn't worth the pleasure.


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## wild jade

Holdingontoit said:


> Nah. The exiles will never be unburdened. I will never let go of the shame.
> 
> I have been "split" for as long as I have been conscious. The firefighter has been in control my entire life. If I had married someone different (impossible, the firefighter would never have allowed it), then perhaps the exiles could have been unburdened. As it is, given my behavior over the past 25 years, all 3 parts of me fervently believe that the shame is deserved. The psychiatrist has not been born who can convince me that the exiles should be released and allowed to come "home".


 @Holdingontoit

I've followed parts of your story, and I have no answers or advice for you. Of course, you don't really want them anyway, so maybe that works out.

You strike me as someone who needs a hug. One of those crushing bear hugs that you at first think "wtf?" and struggle against to get free. But eventually you actually can feel the comfort in it and even though it goes against every grain in your nature, you surrender to that comfort, if only for a brief moment.

You are all about the control. I wish for you, though, that at least once you get to experience the joy of abandonment, the exhilaration of knowing that control is pure illusion, that just like everyone else, you are only and always just human, and that's all right.


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## Holdingontoit

wild jade said:


> I've followed parts of your story, and I have no answers or advice for you. Of course, you don't really want them anyway, so maybe that works out.


Exactly. Made me smile.



> You strike me as someone who needs a hug.


Yes. Many. My only hugger is 1500 miles away. And for the best because not healthy for either of us to have your grown daughter as your primary hugger. She needs to find someone else to hug.

I love hugs. Wish my wife was willing to have them more often.



> You are all about the control. I wish for you, though, that at least once you get to experience the joy of abandonment, the exhilaration of knowing that control is pure illusion, that just like everyone else, you are only and always just human, and that's all right.


Do you know why I remain tightly under control? That is how I keep the suicidal thoughts at bay. If I ever let myself give in to abandonment, I would wrench the wheel to the side and drive myself off a cliff or a high bridge. Never encourage me to "let go". It would not be pretty.

Did not mean to be harsh. Your suggestion would be wise for a more healthy or stable person whose only problem was being wound too tight. I have more layers of dysfunction. I have no dreams or fantasies of happiness or success or joy. All my fantasies are dark. They are best kept locked safely away.


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## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> Exactly. Like I said, I could never have done what you did.
> First off, literally. I have never lasted 30 minutes inside a woman in my life. I would have been lucky to last 30 seconds in an emotionally charged situation. Certainly would have lost my hardon if I didn't go off.
> And emotionally, I was too weak and reactive. I could not have remained calm. I could not have soothed her. The more upset she got, the more upset I would have gotten. The more my effort to actively calm her down failed, the more wound up both of us would have been.
> She needed you. She got me. Pity for both her and me.


If you had been the man she needed, you never would have been interested in her.

If you had been the man she needed, she never would have married you.

You were exactly the kind of man she wanted.

If that wasn't what she needed, then that's on her.


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> @As'laDain: And now you know why it IS revenge. I got a beautiful woman to remain faithful to a dud. I got a good hearted educated successful woman to tie her wagon to a loser. Somehow I got her to stay with me. She could have done so much better. I could not have. I still can't believe I pulled this off.


This is just a taste of what can go wrong when men place too much emphasis on looks.

Beautiful, educated women are over-rated.

And I'm not sure I buy the good hearted and successful descriptors.


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## john117

Buddy400 said:


> Beautiful, educated women are over-rated.


Ain't that the truth


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## 2020hindsight

john117 said:


> They all have thoughts. It's just that in their minds, the loss of control isn't worth the pleasure.


For some people, that may be true. For others, way down on the lower end of the spectrum, those thoughts just aren't happening.


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## wild jade

Holdingontoit said:


> Do you know why I remain tightly under control? That is how I keep the suicidal thoughts at bay. If I ever let myself give in to abandonment, I would wrench the wheel to the side and drive myself off a cliff or a high bridge. Never encourage me to "let go". It would not be pretty.
> 
> Did not mean to be harsh. Your suggestion would be wise for a more healthy or stable person whose only problem was being wound too tight. I have more layers of dysfunction. I have no dreams or fantasies of happiness or success or joy. All my fantasies are dark. They are best kept locked safely away.


Honestly, I don't think it's wise for anyone to pursue happiness. It's the sort of thing that the more you chase it, the more elusive it becomes. Same with success. Chasing it turns every accomplishment into a failure.
And for someone like you who has raised the tortured soul to a high art form, it probably wouldn't do much for you, even if you did catch it. 

But as with hugs, allowing that small bit of joy in can make it all just a little less bad. 

So I don't advise you to chase these things. I just wish for you that they happen to come along more often.


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## Holdingontoit

@wild jade: thanks for the warm thoughts.
I headed to work early and went far out of my way and bought especially good doughnuts today.


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## Holdingontoit

Wife offered a hug this morning. She has been doing that more often lately. I know it is her way of trying to communicate that she wants us to be more physical. I don't feel it. I know that I am shooting myself in the foot and turning down what I always wanted, but I can't find any motivation to woo her. I don't want to play courtship games. I don't want to do the work to get her warmed up to see if her responsive desire kicks in. I don't want to worry about whether she is truly in the mood or just throwing me a bone. I am tired and cranky and resentful and I don't want to have to lift a finger as part of this process. if she wants me, she can unzip my pants. I know it doesn't work that way for many women. I don't care. I am not the one trying to get things started. If she wants to get me started, she needs to do it my way. Just like all the posts that tell men "she doesn't work the way you work, you have to come to her on her terms if you want to succeed." We have flipped the script. She wants it more than I do. Now she needs to approach me on my terms. I do not expect her to. I will probably freak out if she does.

She seems to think that this is just about risk of rejection. That if she makes it clear I will not be rejected, I will initiate. Nope, sorry, that ship has sailed. It is now about much more than simply consent. Her consent is, of course, necessary, but it is no longer sufficient. I need her to show me that she wants it for herself and will enjoy it for herself. I don't think she does or will. And I definitely don't think she would admit if she did. And I still might turn her down. The part of me that enjoys frustrating her enjoys this much more than the part of me that enjoys sex is likely to enjoy the sex.


----------



## minimalME

Holdingontoit said:


> Wife offered a hug this morning. She has been doing that more often lately. I know it is her way of trying to communicate that she wants us to be more physical. I don't feel it. I know that I am shooting myself in the foot and turning down what I always wanted, but I can't find any motivation to woo her. I don't want to play courtship games. I don't want to do the work to get her warmed up to see if her responsive desire kicks in. I don't want to worry about whether she is truly in the mood or just throwing me a bone. I am tired and cranky and resentful and I don't want to have to lift a finger as part of this process. if she wants me, she can unzip my pants. I know it doesn't work that way for many women. I don't care. I am not the one trying to get things started. If she wants to get me started, she needs to do it my way. Just like all the posts that tell men "she doesn't work the way you work, you have to come to her on her terms if you want to succeed." We have flipped the script. She wants it more than I do. Now she needs to approach me on my terms. I do not expect her to. I will probably freak out if she does.
> 
> She seems to think that this is just about risk of rejection. That if she makes it clear I will not be rejected, I will initiate. Nope, sorry, that ship has sailed. It is now about much more than simply consent. Her consent is, of course, necessary, but it is no longer sufficient. I need her to show me that she wants it for herself and will enjoy it for herself. I don't think she does or will. And I definitely don't think she would admit if she did. And I still might turn her down. The part of me that enjoys frustrating her enjoys this much more than the part of me that enjoys sex is likely to enjoy the sex.


My ex-husband never said these things to me, but I can totally picture him thinking them.

In the end, the power struggle was too exhausting.


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## 269370

minimalME said:


> My ex-husband never said these things to me, but I can totally picture him thinking them.
> 
> In the end, the power struggle was too exhausting.


Yes but did you also never ever want to **** him? Because that's what happens when sex is withheld. You breed a monster. (I don't believe Holdingontoit is a monster but he sure does a great impersonation).


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## minimalME

inmyprime said:


> Yes but did you also never ever want to **** him? Because that's what happens when sex is withheld. You breed a monster. (I don't believe Holdingontoit is a monster but he sure does a great impersonation).


That about sums it up.

He was extremely passive (in all areas of life) and was either unable or unwilling to initiate - anything. Finances, childrearing, sex. He had no opinion, no voice that he shared. 

But it's not like he initiated, and I was constantly turning him down. He didn't initiate. And like Holdingontoit wrote in his post, although my ex-husband never said I was going to have to do things on his terms, and he never said he'd enjoy turning me down if I initiated sex, that was how I felt I was being treated.

It felt like a neverending power struggle.

In the end, I had no respect for him.


----------



## john117

minimalME said:


> My ex-husband never said these things to me, but I can totally picture him thinking them.
> 
> In the end, the power struggle was too exhausting.


Control. It's what's for breakfast lunch and dinner.


----------



## Holdingontoit

minimalME said:


> But it's not like he initiated, and I was constantly turning him down.


And that is the difference. I initiated and was constantly turned down for 23 years. So eventually I stopped initiating. I felt 23 years was enough time to bang my head against a brick wall.



> It felt like a neverending power struggle.


Yes, absolutely. That is exactly what it is. For 23 years my wife made it clear that she had all the power. That she had something I wanted and she was going to make sure that I knew that it was totally within her power to turn me down whenever she felt like it. And she felt like it almost every time.

Look, intellectually I understand why she did that. She is an unrecovered rape victim. Rape is only secondarily about sex, it is more about power and control. She felt powerless during the rapes and subsequently needed to constantly reassure herself that she was in control. Plus, her turning me down and me staying was a huge neverending $h1t test. Which I failed by taking her crap over and over.

Once I stopped initiating, she found out that there isn't much power to be had when the other person refuses to play the game at all. Now, she is trying to use non-verbal communication to convince me that if I initiate, she will not turn me down nearly so often. Too late, now that I have tasted the feeling of power and control, I do not want to let go of it. Plus, after all those years of pain and frustration and resentment, I get a positive charge out of giving her a taste of her own medicine. Now that she has tasted rejection, she feels guilty about serving it to me for all those years.

The problem is, neither of us knows how to get from here to a healthier place. Well, I think we both know but neither of us will do it.



> In the end, I had no respect for him.


As far as I can tell she has huge respect for me but no desire. And trying to trigger desire is complex. Maybe I could just hit the gym and get more fit. But more likely it would also mean her hitting the shrink couch and exorcising some of her demons. And me doing the same. So far neither of us is willing to do the work. So we stumble forward. Together but alone. The worst of all worlds.


----------



## minimalME

Holdingontoit said:


> Once I stopped initiating, she found out that there isn't much power to be had when the other person refuses to play the game at all.


That's how I felt - like I was refusing to play anymore. I felt a huge amount of pain because I knew it was hurting him and hurting my children. But as much pain as he was in, he refused to work with me to make our relationship better. It was just more bricks in the wall, every attempt I made, even during our separation, he blocked.



> The problem is, neither of us knows how to get from here to a healthier place. Well, I think we both know but neither of us will do it.


That's exactly how I felt. But I was trying, and he wasn't. 

The thing about being a passive person is that they don't take on responsibility. So in the end, he could just blame me, when really, he abdicated. He was a perpetual victim, which gets old really, really fast.

During the divorce, we were having an argument, and he yelled out, 'I need to protect myself.' I almost laughed in his face and said, 'From what??? I haven't asked you for anything, and I'm giving you half of what's mine.'



> As far as I can tell she has huge respect for me but no desire. And trying to trigger desire is complex.


For me, respect elicits desire. 

I don't see how she could respect you yet treat you the way she does.


----------



## Tron

Holdingontoit said:


> As far as I can tell she has huge respect for me but no desire. And trying to trigger desire is complex. Maybe I could just hit the gym and get more fit. But more likely it would also mean her hitting the shrink couch and exorcising some of her demons. And me doing the same. So far neither of us is willing to do the work. So we stumble forward. Together but alone. The worst of all worlds.


Do you know how pathetic this sounds?


----------



## Holdingontoit

minimalME said:


> For me, respect elicits desire.
> 
> I don't see how she could respect you yet treat you the way she does.


I tend to agree with you in general. I think for most of our marriage she did not respect me.

Then our kids grew up and did well and she knew that they turned out better than if she had raised them herself. Then she got cancer and I tended to her when I could have easily left her to her own devices. The cancer left her with scars and missing parts and weakness and suddenly she did not feel like she was by far the more valuable partner in our twosome. And yet I tended to her with far more care than she had shown me all the years I kept asking her to care for me in the way I needed. We stopped having sex entirely and yet I did not stray. I started earning more money and yet I did not file for divorce. In many ways she appreciates me far more than she did before. 

But I think the biggest change was when I changed my reaction to her. She made overtures that I rejected. In large part she wanted to restore the old power dynamic. In a smaller part she wanted to show that she was healed. I turned her down a few times and then she stopped asking. She seemed both shocked and hurt. She did not think I was serious when I said we have already had sex for the last time. I offered to have sex with her on her birthday several months after her last treatment. I told her that she is always entitled to birthday sex if she wants it because I know how much it hurts to be rejected on that day. And I wanted her to be able to prove to herself that she was as functional as she had been before the cancer, before the surgery, before the aromatase inhibitors led to early menopause. So we proved she is functional. And we have not had sex since.

I think the pain she experienced by being rejected gave her a new respect for how much pain she inflicted in me and how much strength it took for me to treat her affectionately despite the continuous beating I was taking. At her hands. I think she has a lot of regret.

But, as far as I can tell, none of that triggers any desire in her. It triggers a feeling of wanting to make herself available for duty sex. I would have gladly accepted that during the first 23 years, with little thought of what it said about me or what it was doing to her. But those days are gone.



Tron said:


> Do you know how pathetic this sounds?


Yes. And that is why I absolutely deserve the pathetic situation I find myself in.


----------



## Holdingontoit

I have decided that I am going to stop accepting my weakness.
I had sex with my wife this weekend. It was awkward and neither reached orgasm (not that she ever does with me) but she seemed to be "present" and not dissociating.
I am taking another job that will require me to up my game significantly. I can do it but it will take concentration and focus.

So the good news for the forum is you won't be reading as many "I am pathetic" posts from me because I won't have time to post as often.


----------



## Tron

Holdingontoit said:


> So the good news for the forum is you won't be reading as many "I am pathetic" posts from me because I won't have time to post as often.


Not sure what to think about this... 

I'd feel a lot better if you'd said that we won't be reading as many "I am pathetic" posts from you because you've chosen not be "pathetic" any more.

But maybe that's just me.


----------



## Tron

As for sex with your wife...try again. Practice makes perfect.


----------



## Tron

How is it going?


----------



## Holdingontoit

@Tron: Thanks for asking. SOSO. We had sex once while travelling together for a work conference where I was speaking. Awkward. Uncomfortable for her. I stopped when she expressed discomfort. She insisted that we go slowly and continue. Does not make me feel good about myself after. She seems to be making an effort to be available but I am not motivated to take advantage of the opportunities. Because it feels like "taking advantage" and I don't like myself after. Many times when I reach out to hug her or roll toward her she turns away or throws up her hands to push me away. Yes, sometimes she lets me come close but it feels forced so I just feel dirty afterward. I know that is all in my head but it is in my head and I am not motivated to evict those thoughts.

We get along great as long as I don't introduce sex. Had a nice time on a nature hike at the conference. Nice trip visiting our son. Nice evening with one of her friends from college.

I turned down the job offer out of town. I turned down another offer. My current firm offered me a promotion. I turned that down too. Came with a pay cut and I am too old to take a step back to then take more steps forward. I know this is partly my depression talking but I don't have any plans to treat the depression so I might as well go along with it. It gets rather uppity and I become completely incapacitated when I don't go along with its preferences.

Aren't you glad you asked!


----------



## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> @Tron: Thanks for asking. SOSO. We had sex once while travelling together for a work conference where I was speaking. Awkward. Uncomfortable for her. I stopped when she expressed discomfort. She insisted that we go slowly and continue. Does not make me feel good about myself after. She seems to be making an effort to be available but I am not motivated to take advantage of the opportunities. Because it feels like "taking advantage" and I don't like myself after. Many times when I reach out to hug her or roll toward her she turns away or throws up her hands to push me away. Yes, sometimes she lets me come close but it feels forced so I just feel dirty afterward. I know that is all in my head but it is in my head and I am not motivated to evict those thoughts.
> 
> We get along great as long as I don't introduce sex. Had a nice time on a nature hike at the conference. Nice trip visiting our son. Nice evening with one of her friends from college.
> 
> I turned down the job offer out of town. I turned down another offer. My current firm offered me a promotion. I turned that down too. Came with a pay cut and I am too old to take a step back to then take more steps forward. I know this is partly my depression talking but I don't have any plans to treat the depression so I might as well go along with it. It gets rather uppity and I become completely incapacitated when I don't go along with its preferences.
> 
> Aren't you glad you asked!


Since sex with your wife isn't making you feel good, I see no reason for you to keep pursuing it.

If I reached out to hug my wife and she turned away or threw up her hands to push me away, there's no way I'd keep doing it. 

I don't know how important it is to your wife that you try, but I see no reason that you should discomfit yourself for her benefit in this area.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@Buddy400: Agree in theory but still leaves me in a pickle. We do not have pets. Kids are out of the house. I get no physical touch from another living being unless I touch H2. Complete absence of physical touch makes me even crazier than usual. So this is like building a relationship with food, not like kicking a drug habit. I can't just eliminate it entirely. So I have to manage the amount and type and duration of touch I try to obtain. But I can't tolerate not touching her at all.

I have about a decade (hopefully) until retirement. At that point I intend to get a puppy. That should provide substantial amounts of touch and affection. I imagine I will be much happier once the puppy arrives.


----------



## Holdingontoit

H2 had a MRI. There is a mass of tissue behind her eyeball. We are hoping it is inflammation / infection and not a migration of cancer. More tests to come.


----------



## kag123

Holdingontoit said:


> H2 had a MRI. There is a mass of tissue behind her eyeball. We are hoping it is inflammation / infection and not a migration of cancer. More tests to come.


I'm sorry to hear that. I'll be praying for her and you. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## kag123

How is your wife doing @Holdingontoit ?

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## Holdingontoit

Thanks for asking. She did 4 hours of tests last Friday. We get the results on Wednesday. Hopefully will be something treatable.


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## Holdingontoit

Doctor called. They don't know exactly what it is, but they are pretty sure it is not cancer. Yay! So she has a couple of appointments with new doctors to explore the "candidates" for what is wrong. But it is likely no life threatening.

Never been so happy to get a blood test and have something far outside the normal range. Balancing hormones that are out of whack is much better than dealing with cancer that spread to a new location.


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## kag123

I'm so happy for you both! I can imagine you've both been stressed and scared waiting for those results! Thank God it's not cancer. 

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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Holdingontoit said:


> @Buddy400: Agree in theory but still leaves me in a pickle. We do not have pets. Kids are out of the house. I get no physical touch from another living being unless I touch H2. Complete absence of physical touch makes me even crazier than usual. So this is like building a relationship with food, not like kicking a drug habit. I can't just eliminate it entirely. So I have to manage the amount and type and duration of touch I try to obtain. But I can't tolerate not touching her at all.
> 
> I have about a decade (hopefully) until retirement. At that point I intend to get a puppy. That should provide substantial amounts of touch and affection. I imagine I will be much happier once the puppy arrives.


Just keep touching her when you want. *I rarely say what I'd do, because none of us have walked in a poster's shoes (although the many, many common and similar circumstances in the many years of experience reflected here on the forum / by forumites is excellent source of wisdom)...
But here I'll say, my apologies in advance...
I'd keep touching her when I wanted too, wouldn't make a big deal of it but durn.....I couldn't do without touching W whenever. 
Good luck sir.


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## Holdingontoit

Thanks for all the warm wishes.

@Ragnar Ragnasson: I can touch her often. Not whenever I want to. And not in whatever way I want to. She often tenses up and shrinks away when I approach her. These days I tend to deflect by saying "your loss" or stroking her toe and then walking away saying "sorry, that is all you get this time". The good news is that she allows more touch than she did early in our marriage. The bad news is that I do not enjoy touching her nearly as much as I did then.

It is like drinking meal supplements when you are on a diet. Yes, you get the calories and vitamins and minerals you need to stay alive. But no, you do not get the same satisfaction from it as sharing a meal with someone you love. It keeps you alive. It isn't living.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

I'm sorry to hear W reacts that way to a touch. What happens if you just don't stop. You know best, it's your circumstance, my apologies if I'm on the wrong track.

I'd try not stopping. Maybe you have as already......but I didn't read that W emphatically says stop.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Without touching in a marriage is like slowly starving, I agree.


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## Holdingontoit

Yes, she emphatically says stop. She is a rape victim. More than once. No means no. She is very vehement when I continue after she has said "no". Maybe another man with fewer hangups and better EQ could tell when her no really means no and when she is open to me pushing against the no and be more playful and less deadly serious. But for me, no means immediate cessation of all physical interaction. I no longer have any playfulness available when it comes to touching her. It is like touching an electric fence for me. All tension and fear of being zapped.

I know that is not what she really wants all the time. There are times when I detect that she might like me to initiate. There are times when she might be open to me exploring whether she might be brought into the mood. At this point, I am actively opposed to any such exploring. It is too much work and too much rejection for a very small payoff. I no longer enjoy touching her all that much. I do it to prove to myself that she will allow it. I do it when I am feeling alone and cut off from the world. But the joy is gone.

Like I said, I drink the liquid meal replacements. They keep me alive. They do not nourish my soul.


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## Buddy400

gowithuhtred said:


> I'm sorry to hear W reacts that way to a touch. What happens if you just don't stop. You know best, it's your circumstance, my apologies if I'm on the wrong track.
> 
> I'd try not stopping. Maybe you have as already......but I didn't read that W emphatically says stop.


Sorry, but these days if a woman "really" wants a guy to keep going when she says stop (emphatically or not), she's **** outta luck.

If the guy's brain dead enough to keep going, he deserves whatever he gets.


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## Holdingontoit

H2 tried to initiate a hand job on our anniversary. I shut down that stuff. Homey don't play that game no more.
She said she is worried what the long term absence of sex is going to do to our marriage. Was very hard not to laugh. Really? You are worried how it will affect our marriage? Sorry, but you are about 26 years too late.
She needn't worry. It won't affect our marriage going forward any more than it already has. I intend to stay with her until death do us part.

Oh, and I found a dog boarding chain in NYC that (after $25 and a background check) will let you come play with the dogs. No need to feed or clean up after the dogs, but you get to play with them. Extra money for the kennel and the dogs have humans to play with and the humans get puppy therapy. I think I am going to sign up.


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## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> H2 tried to initiate a hand job on our anniversary. I shut down that stuff. Homey don't play that game no more.
> She said she is worried what the long term absence of sex is going to do to our marriage. Was very hard not to laugh. Really? You are worried how it will affect our marriage? Sorry, but you are about 26 years too late.


I know you shouldn't play but.......

Really!!!??? She actually SAID THAT?

I don't suppose there was any follow on conversation?


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## Holdingontoit

Yes, she said it. I told her it wouldn't do any more damage than the past 26 years has already done, and as far as I am concerned our marriage is better now than it has ever been. I asked her how it is for her and she said it is great beyond her wildest dreams. We left it there.


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## Tron

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, she said it. I told her it wouldn't do any more damage than the past 26 years has already done, and as far as I am concerned our marriage is better now than it has ever been. I asked her how it is for her and she said it is great beyond her wildest dreams. We left it there.


Sounds like a match made in heaven. You guys are perfect together.

That sort of begs the question...why are you still here?


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> Sorry, but these days if a woman "really" wants a guy to keep going when she says stop (emphatically or not), she's **** outta luck.
> 
> If the guy's brain dead enough to keep going, he deserves whatever he gets.


If this is how the partnership roles, they need to discuss the ground rules. This is a Good Thing for all parties.


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## PigglyWiggly

Put you two in a room with 100mg of MDMA each and you would be well on your way to fixing this. The flames are coming but I don't care. Sometimes you have to step outside the box. I've seen it first hand and with others. It's hard to fight and argue when all you feel is love, compassion and empathy for the person you are "rolling" with. It will bring out the most loving you and her and open mental barriers that you thought unbreakable. If you want more info, pm me as I know this kind of talk is frowned upon.


----------



## Tron

PigglyWiggly said:


> Put you two in a room with 100mg of MDMA each and you would be well on your way to fixing this. The flames are coming but I don't care. Sometimes you have to step outside the box. I've seen it first hand and with others. It's hard to fight and argue when all you feel is love, compassion and empathy for the person you are "rolling" with. It will bring out the most loving you and her and open mental barriers that you thought unbreakable. If you want more info, pm me as I know this kind of talk is frowned upon.


Do some ecstacy together?










I think I've heard it all now.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Tron said:


> Do some ecstacy together?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I've heard it all now.


they are currently testing it to treat PTSD 

Phase 2 clinical trials have shown that MDMA can reduce fear and defensiveness, enhance communication and introspection, and increase empathy and compassion, enhancing the therapeutic process for people suffering from PTSD.

Phase 3 Trial Program: MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD

He has tried everything else


----------



## Holdingontoit

Tron said:


> That sort of begs the question...why are you still here?


I said it was better. I didn't say it was good. Our marriage can be better for me than it ever was and still be unsatisfying.

I am here because I continue to struggle to accept the choice that I am making. I am wrestling with my demons. Like so many here.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> they are currently testing it to treat PTSD
> 
> Phase 2 clinical trials have shown that MDMA can reduce fear and defensiveness, enhance communication and introspection, and increase empathy and compassion, enhancing the therapeutic process for people suffering from PTSD.
> 
> Phase 3 Trial Program: MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy for PTSD
> 
> He has tried everything else


There was also a time when the psychiatric community was touting the potential for LSD to solve all manner of mental issues. 
Didn't seem to work out that way.

Either way, if my wife can't relate to me without the aid of drugs, that does nothing to change the underlying disconnect. This is just "Is that you or the wine talking" taken to a new level. Look at all the threads from guys saying their wives can only get freaky with them when they're halfway in the bag. It solves nothing.


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## 269370

I would have taken the handjob. But I’m cheap.


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> I would have taken the handjob. But I’m cheap.


I am old. I take SSRI meds. No hardon without Viagra. Difficult for me to get myself off with my hand, and I have had LOTS of practice! I would say at this point with her hand or mouth she has zero chance. I didn't want her to face failure. When she is physically capable of doing PIV, maybe I will give her a chance to see if she can get me off.

So ironic. When I lasted 30 seconds or less I wanted it desperately. And all it lead to was shame. Now when I could last a reasonable time I hardly want it at all.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> So ironic. When I lasted 30 seconds or less I wanted it desperately. And all it lead to was shame. Now when I could last a reasonable time I hardly want it at all.


As they say, the glories of youth are wasted on the young.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There was also a time when the psychiatric community was touting the potential for LSD to solve all manner of mental issues.
> Didn't seem to work out that way.
> 
> Either way, if my wife can't relate to me without the aid of drugs, that does nothing to change the underlying disconnect. This is just "Is that you or the wine talking" taken to a new level. Look at all the threads from guys saying their wives can only get freaky with them when they're halfway in the bag. It solves nothing.


It seems as though you have no personal experience with consuming MDMA. It can be a one time thing and during that 4 hours, you can overcome obstacles in a marriage that you never imagined possible. The disconnected becomes connected and you have a starting path to move forward on. It was a suggestion as he seemed out of ideas. Maybe it's not for you. I am excited to see the mental health possibilities with this drug.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> It seems as though you have no personal experience with consuming MDMA. It can be a one time thing and during that 4 hours, you can overcome obstacles in a marriage that you never imagined possible. The disconnected becomes connected and you have a starting path to move forward on. It was a suggestion as he seemed out of ideas. Maybe it's not for you. I am excited to see the mental health possibilities with this drug.


I had no personal experience with consuming LSD either, but I was still smart enough to know better, in spite of what many mental health professionals were saying. It was also supposed to help "make connections."


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> PigglyWiggly said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems as though you have no personal experience with consuming MDMA. It can be a one time thing and during that 4 hours, you can overcome obstacles in a marriage that you never imagined possible. The disconnected becomes connected and you have a starting path to move forward on. It was a suggestion as he seemed out of ideas. Maybe it's not for you. I am excited to see the mental health possibilities with this drug.
> 
> 
> 
> I had no personal experience with consuming LSD either, but I was still smart enough to know better, in spite of what many mental health professionals were saying. It was also supposed to help "make connections."
Click to expand...

Actually both LSD and ecstasy are great for making sexual and emotional connections.

Ecstasy is a better shot at it for most people. LSD can be tricky if a person is not totally stable and/or if they are too freaked out about it. Whereas ecstasy tends to make everyone smooth and loving and deeply sexual. LSD can deliver all of that too if you are the right mind set type. 

I’m not suggesting either of these for Hold. Just random responding. These substances are not like alcohol. They really can cause life changing new feelings in just one trip.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually both LSD and ecstasy are great for making sexual and emotional connections.
> 
> Ecstasy is a better shot at it for most people. LSD can be tricky if a person is not totally stable and/or if they are too freaked out about it. Whereas ecstasy tends to make everyone smooth and loving and deeply sexual. LSD can deliver all of that too if you are the right mind set type.
> 
> I’m not suggesting either of these for Hold. Just random responding. These substances are not like alcohol. They really can cause life changing new feelings in just one trip.


Thanks for your feedback. I have not experienced LSD. It is on my bucket list but really only for the sexual possibilities. My curiosity about it was first stoked by Sam Harris recounting how it changed his life. After research, I decided that MDMA was better suited for the type of experience I wanted to have at the time. It indeed changed me and has allowed me to become a much better me after taking it twice in 2017. 

This was the excerpt that initially peaked my interest in MDMA.

The analysis of the phase 2 trial data that lead the FDA to expedite development and review showed that, regardless of the original cause, PTSD can be treatable with just two to three sessions of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. All 107 participants in the trial had chronic, treatment-resistant PTSD, and had lived with it for an average of 17.8 years. Participants did three sessions of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy and, two months following treatment, 61 percent were no longer considered to have PTSD. At the 12-month follow-up, more than two thirds (68 percent) no longer had PTSD. By way of a comparison, nonresponse to cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT)—which often takes takes years—can be as high as 50 percent.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Actually both LSD and ecstasy are great for making sexual and emotional connections.
> 
> Ecstasy is a better shot at it for most people. LSD can be tricky if a person is not totally stable and/or if they are too freaked out about it. Whereas ecstasy tends to make everyone smooth and loving and deeply sexual. LSD can deliver all of that too if you are the right mind set type.
> 
> I’m not suggesting either of these for Hold. Just random responding. These substances are not like alcohol. They really can cause life changing new feelings in just one trip.


There's a lot of cans, mights, and maybe here. And things can might maybe also go horribly awry as well.

And if you need these things in Hope's of making a sexual connection, maybe what you really need is a different partner. You know. One with whom you can connect by your natural chemistry, not artificial, and potentially dangerous, enhancements.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually both LSD and ecstasy are great for making sexual and emotional connections.
> 
> Ecstasy is a better shot at it for most people. LSD can be tricky if a person is not totally stable and/or if they are too freaked out about it. Whereas ecstasy tends to make everyone smooth and loving and deeply sexual. LSD can deliver all of that too if you are the right mind set type.
> 
> I’m not suggesting either of these for Hold. Just random responding. These substances are not like alcohol. They really can cause life changing new feelings in just one trip.
> 
> 
> 
> There's a lot of cans, mights, and maybe here. And things can might maybe also go horribly awry as well.
> 
> And if you need these things in Hope's of making a sexual connection, maybe what you really need is a different partner. You know. One with whom you can connect by your natural chemistry, not artificial, and potentially dangerous, enhancements.
Click to expand...

There’s only a maybe with LSD. With ecstasy it’s a for sure. 

I know it all sounds scary and crazy. But it’s really not like what most people who have never tried it think. 

I’m not saying people should take drugs instead of form an actual connection. But I am saying that if you (anyone) and a partner wanted to experience together something that would most definitely bring you closer and have an incredible journey together that will change you both in a positive way, ecstasy is an adventure you would not regret. 

It’s too bad there isn’t a way for people to experience it in a way they felt safe about. I think almost everyone would benefit from it. Especially when done as a couple.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> There’s only a maybe with LSD. With ecstasy it’s a for sure.
> 
> I know it all sounds scary and crazy. But it’s really not like what most people who have never tried it think.
> 
> I’m not saying people should take drugs instead of form an actual connection. But I am saying that if you (anyone) and a partner wanted to experience together something that would most definitely bring you closer and have an incredible journey together that will change you both in a positive way, ecstasy is an adventure you would not regret.
> 
> It’s too bad there isn’t a way for people to experience it in a way they felt safe about. I think almost everyone would benefit from it. Especially when done as a couple.


_Researchers believe that ecstasy causes a flood of serotonin in the brain during use, and the damage is caused by the overproduction. Since serotonin levels affect learning, sleep and emotional processes, such damage can leave users severely impaired.

Without proper functioning of the neurotransmitters, conditions such as depression, anxiety, insomnia, and memory loss are more likely to occur. These conditions can be present for long periods even after use has ended._

https://drugabuse.com/library/the-effects-of-ecstasy-use/

I don't know what level of use is required to trigger such negative effects. I'm sure it varies from person to person as some may be able to engage in regular use without such difficulties, but I suspect there's plenty of folks who would see negative effects right from the first use. 

But even all that is a side show. So long as the effect is artificially induced, it is invalid, at least as I see it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> There’s only a maybe with LSD. With ecstasy it’s a for sure.
> 
> I know it all sounds scary and crazy. But it’s really not like what most people who have never tried it think.
> 
> I’m not saying people should take drugs instead of form an actual connection. But I am saying that if you (anyone) and a partner wanted to experience together something that would most definitely bring you closer and have an incredible journey together that will change you both in a positive way, ecstasy is an adventure you would not regret.
> 
> It’s too bad there isn’t a way for people to experience it in a way they felt safe about. I think almost everyone would benefit from it. Especially when done as a couple.
> 
> 
> 
> _Researchers believe that ecstasy causes a flood of serotonin in the brain during use, and the damage is caused by the overproduction. Since serotonin levels affect learning, sleep and emotional processes, such damage can leave users severely impaired.
> 
> Without proper functioning of the neurotransmitters, conditions such as depression, anxiety, insomnia, and memory loss are more likely to occur. These conditions can be present for long periods even after use has ended._
> 
> https://drugabuse.com/library/the-effects-of-ecstasy-use/
> 
> I don't know what level of use is required to trigger such negative effects. I'm sure it varies from person to person as some may be able to engage in regular use without such difficulties, but I suspect there's plenty of folks who would see negative effects right from the first use.
> 
> But even all that is a side show. So long as the effect is artificially induced, it is invalid, at least as I see it.
Click to expand...

I’m not talking about “regular use”. Just once is enough.

As for the effect being invalid, all I can say is that it is not invalid - speaking from personal experience. In fact, the effects help you make everything MORE valid. Both during and after. It helps you find depths of emotion within yourself that you can tap into forever, now that you know how to engage those feelings.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> _Researchers believe that ecstasy causes a flood of serotonin in the brain during use, and the damage is caused by the overproduction. Since serotonin levels affect learning, sleep and emotional processes, such damage can leave users severely impaired.
> 
> Without proper functioning of the neurotransmitters, conditions such as depression, anxiety, insomnia, and memory loss are more likely to occur. These conditions can be present for long periods even after use has ended._
> 
> https://drugabuse.com/library/the-effects-of-ecstasy-use/
> 
> I don't know what level of use is required to trigger such negative effects. I'm sure it varies from person to person as some may be able to engage in regular use without such difficulties, but I suspect there's plenty of folks who would see negative effects right from the first use.
> 
> But even all that is a side show. So long as the effect is artificially induced, it is invalid, at least as I see it.


Maybe it's time to update that old optical prescription.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> Maybe it's time to update that old optical prescription.



Naw,
Someone needing drugs to connect in what should be a natural connection not being a good thing is so clear, even Ray Charles can see it.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Naw,
> Someone needing drugs to connect in what should be a natural connection not being a good thing is so clear, even Ray Charles can see it.


You sound old and closed minded with that rhetoric but you do you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> PigglyWiggly said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe it's time to update that old optical prescription.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Naw,
> Someone needing drugs to connect in what should be a natural connection not being a good thing is so clear, even Ray Charles can see it.
Click to expand...

It’s not “needing drugs”. It’s a choice to take a special journey with each other. 

I know how it all sounds. It’s just very very different than what anyone thinks it will be if they haven’t done it. 

I’m still not saying everybody should do it. I’m saying it is really awesome and a lot of people could benefit from it in ways they cannot foresee.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Someone needing drugs to connect in what should be a natural connection not being a good thing is so clear, even Ray Charles can see it.


Maybe so, but if I am not leaving my wife (and I'm not), that "not so good" thing might be better than continuing to stay where I am. We do not connect. Haven't for decades. If some drug can help us connect in ways we never have before, isn't that better than never connecting? OK, so it is "artificial". A vibrator is artificial, but if it could help me get my wife to orgasm I would buy a dozen, a case of rechargeable batteries, a backup generator and a year's supply of gas and oil!


----------



## Anastasia6

When you said you guys tried but it was uncomfortable for her. Do you use lube? A vibrator as reference above?


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Holdingontoit said:


> Maybe so, but if I am not leaving my wife (and I'm not), that "not so good" thing might be better than continuing to stay where I am. We do not connect. Haven't for decades. If some drug can help us connect in ways we never have before, isn't that better than never connecting? OK, so it is "artificial". A vibrator is artificial, but if it could help me get my wife to orgasm I would buy a dozen, a case of rechargeable batteries, a backup generator and a year's supply of gas and oil!


https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-mdma-went-from-club-drug-to-breakthrough-therapy-1508332237

It's behind a paywall but if you are over your limit, you can go incognito mode and copy/paste the link.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s not “needing drugs”. It’s a choice to take a special journey with each other.
> 
> I know how it all sounds. It’s just very very different than what anyone thinks it will be if they haven’t done it.
> 
> I’m still not saying everybody should do it. I’m saying it is really awesome and a lot of people could benefit from it in ways they cannot foresee.


I appreciate that you are not putting it out there as a universal solution.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> You sound old and closed minded with that rhetoric but you do you.


Some old school ideas remain relevant. Some principles truly are timeless. And at this time, age is irrelevant. LSD was around before I was. I had friends in high school dropping acid, so it's not like this is something I didn't encounter until middle age.

We know beyond any reasonable doubt that even just one instance of dropping acid can cause catastrophic, irreversible damage and that its impossible to predict who and when.

Yet you have LSD on your bucket list. That's not wise in any time frame. Anybody who considers such a thing bucket list worthy has sacrificed all credibility in a discussion on the merits of chemical druggery.

But then again if it's on your bucket list, that means you haven't done it yet. And it's not like it's hard to come by. Even an old school straight guy like me could have some in my pocket in a few hours if I wanted some. So you appear to be all talk and no action on this front.


----------



## 269370

I hate to be the one to say this but it is against the rules advocating and promoting the use of illegal drugs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> We know beyond any reasonable doubt that even just one instance of dropping acid can cause catastrophic, irreversible damage and that its impossible to predict who and when.


Do you have a source for this? It is not accurate so I’m just curious where you ever saw it in a publication. You can PM me since these posts will probably be deleted.


----------



## PigglyWiggly

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Some old school ideas remain relevant. Some principles truly are timeless. And at this time, age is irrelevant. LSD was around before I was. I had friends in high school dropping acid, so it's not like this is something I didn't encounter until middle age.
> 
> We know beyond any reasonable doubt that even just one instance of dropping acid can cause catastrophic, irreversible damage and that its impossible to predict who and when.
> 
> Yet you have LSD on your bucket list. That's not wise in any time frame. Anybody who considers such a thing bucket list worthy has sacrificed all credibility in a discussion on the merits of chemical druggery.
> 
> But then again if it's on your bucket list, that means you haven't done it yet. And it's not like it's hard to come by. Even an old school straight guy like me could have some in my pocket in a few hours if I wanted some. So you appear to be all talk and no action on this front.



You are flailing now. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetwburns/2017/08/28/fda-designates-mdma-as-breakthrough-therapy-for-post-traumatic-stress/#adab18674608


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

dupe


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

PigglyWiggly said:


> You are flailing now.
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/janetwburns/2017/08/28/fda-designates-mdma-as-breakthrough-therapy-for-post-traumatic-stress/#adab18674608


Not at all my acidhead wannabe.

I havent poopooed the idea of deliberate and controlled application of a known quantity by a legitimate PTSD under the careful and professional supervision of a competent medical authority.

But legitimate medical l treatment for PTSD is a far cry from buying illegal, uncontrolled **** from a sketchy black market and just winging it your untrained self when you don't even know how to diagnose the problem in the first place let alone what sort of treatment regimen may be appropriate.


----------



## Holdingontoit

anastasia6 said:


> When you said you guys tried but it was uncomfortable for her. Do you use lube? A vibrator as reference above?


 @anastasia6: Thanks for your concern. Yes, we use lube. The discomfort was not vaginal. She has a sprained muscle deep in her hip / thigh and so it was uncomfortable for her to bend her legs. She is getting treatment for it and it should resolve in a few weeks. That is why I was saying "after she becomes physically capable". Nothing to do with her vagina. But understandable why someone would think that is where the discomfort arose.

We do not use vibrators because my wife refuses to do so. She claims they don't feel good to her. I am not sure whether that is based on her #metoo history or just from her own explorations. She claims not to masturbate at all. Her claimed lack of sensation and her PTSD are part of the reason why I am not opposed to this discussion continuing.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @anastasia6: Thanks for your concern. Yes, we use lube. The discomfort was not vaginal. She has a sprained muscle deep in her hip / thigh and so it was uncomfortable for her to bend her legs. She is getting treatment for it and it should resolve in a few weeks. That is why I was saying "after she becomes physically capable". Nothing to do with her vagina. But understandable why someone would think that is where the discomfort arose.
> 
> 
> 
> We do not use vibrators because my wife refuses to do so. She claims they don't feel good to her. I am not sure whether that is based on her #metoo history or just from her own explorations. She claims not to masturbate at all. Her claimed lack of sensation and her PTSD are part of the reason why I am not opposed to this discussion continuing.




If the discomfort is not vaginal, then in theory, you can find a position that won’t strain her hip muscle. But I doubt you will want to do that 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Do you have a source for this? It is not accurate so I’m just curious where you ever saw it in a publication. You can PM me since these posts will probably be deleted.


_"such effects are rare, but can happen after just one use"_
https://drugabuse.com/library/effects-acid-lsd/

_In addition to their short-term effects on perception and mood, hallucinogenic drugs are associated with psychotic-like episodes that can occur long after a person has taken the drug, and dissociative drugs can cause respiratory depression, heart rate abnormalities, and a withdrawal syndrome. _
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/hallucinogens-dissociative-drugs/director

_Even with pure LSD, people can experience "bad trips," with feelings of confusion, terror, anxiety, depression, and/or paranoia lasting up to several hours. In some cases, this extreme agitation has led to accidental death or suicide as people panic and attempt to flee from their hallucinations. Experienced people who take LSD accept these bad trips as possible side effects of their "mind altering" experience. _
Considering taking LSD? | Go Ask Alice!

These are but a few of many.


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> If the discomfort is not vaginal, then in theory, you can find a position that won’t strain her hip muscle. But I doubt you will want to do that


I don't want to do it at all. As I have said, I get off on the power trip more than I get off from getting off these days. I would have sex to show her she isn't old and disabled. Limiting ourselves to whatever position she could tolerate wouldn't accomplish that goal. After she is healed, I am willing to have sex with her to show her that she is healed and able and young and vibrant.
@inmyprime: I know that some (many? most?) couples would enjoy finding a way to have sex that is not uncomfortable for either of them. The process would be fun and intimate and bonding. Sex is not fun or intimate or bonding for us. When it was bonding for me, it wasn't for her. Now that it might be bonding for her, it isn't for me. Other couples would feel a sense of accomplishment for overcoming the obstacles and accomplishing sex. I wouldn't. And right now I am not of a mind to allow H2 to obtain any sense of accomplishment from servicing me sexually. I am willing to allow her that feeling as a gift to assist in her healing. But it has to be clear that I am the one making the sacrifice, not her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Rocky, you’ve focused on one article from a drug abuse website. The same article also says LSD is less dangerous than alcohol. I’m not advocating anything, it is simply not as dangerous than people think. The very rare instances are so rare, that there are not even enough individuals who have experienced life long effects after just one use to make any statistics about.


----------



## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> I don't want to do it at all. As I have said, I get off on the power trip more than I get off from getting off these days. I would have sex to show her she isn't old and disabled. Limiting ourselves to whatever position she could tolerate wouldn't accomplish that goal. After she is healed, I am willing to have sex with her to show her that she is healed and able and young and vibrant.
> 
> 
> @inmyprime: I know that some (many? most?) couples would enjoy finding a way to have sex that is not uncomfortable for either of them. The process would be fun and intimate and bonding. Sex is not fun or intimate or bonding for us. When it was bonding for me, it wasn't for her. Now that it might be bonding for her, it isn't for me. Other couples would feel a sense of accomplishment for overcoming the obstacles and accomplishing sex. I wouldn't. And right now I am not of a mind to allow H2 to obtain any sense of accomplishment from servicing me sexually. I am willing to allow her that feeling as a gift to assist in her healing. But it has to be clear that I am the one making the sacrifice, not her.



How are you going to make that clear? Scream out ‘what a torture!’ in ecstasy while she makes you cum? 
Just help her with the healing for now. Decide later how to ‘avenge’ after she healed. You never know, she might heal you in the process too. You both deserve some decent healing sessions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Faithful Wife said:


> Rocky, you’ve focused on one article from a drug abuse website. The same article also says LSD is less dangerous than alcohol. I’m not advocating anything, it is simply not as dangerous than people think. The very rare instances are so rare, that there are not even enough individuals who have experienced life long effects after just one use to make any statistics about.


Multiple articles posted there... and they are but a few of many, many more. Less dangerous than alcohol in one way but much more so in many other ways. 

Risk management takes into account both likelihood and consequence, which means even if likelihood is fairly low, if consequence is high, risk is still considered high.

And for what? Not for the betterment of mankind or any other noble purpose. And not only do people take these very unnecessary risks, and even in the absence of immediate catastrophic results as a minimum **** with th heir brain chemistry, they try to pressure others into taking those risks with them (present company excepted of course).


----------



## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> How are you going to make that clear? Scream out ‘what a torture!’ in ecstasy while she makes you cum?


Trust me, she is much more attuned to whether I am just going through the motions for her benefit than I was when the roles were reversed.



> Just help her with the healing for now. Decide later how to ‘avenge’ after she healed. You never know, she might heal you in the process too. You both deserve some decent healing sessions.


That is the point. The sessions are not healing for me or for her. I feel like crap during and after. I am going through the motions so she can pretend she doesn't have PTSD. Just because I have an orgasm does not mean the session is emotionally fulfilling. I have an orgasm when I masturbate and it is anything but fulfilling. She tells herself "I made him cum so I am doing my duty as a wife." But her telling herself that doesn't make it true.

Look, I know you mean well but our having sex in these circumstances doesn't make things better. It makes things worse. For me at least. Years ago it would have been helpful to me but those days are long gone. She was too broken to enjoy sex or even to grant consent when I wanted to have sex with her. Now I am too broken to enjoy sex with her when she is more amenable to granting consent. Ironic and tragic but that does not mean that my analysis is incorrect. "Just do it" is not the answer for us. I wish it were.


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## Holdingontoit

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And not only do people take these very unnecessary risks


Just because something is a risk does not make it unnecessary. The key is whether the person views their current condition as unpleasant but tolerable as opposed to intolerable or lethal. If you are dying of cancer, trying an experimental drug that might hasten your death is risky but not necessarily an unnecessary or imprudent risk.

But I do appreciate your warning people to be aware of the risk.


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## Holdingontoit

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And not only do people take these very unnecessary risks,


Just because something is risky does not mean taking the risk is unnecessary.

If you are dying of metastatic cancer, taking a drug that might hasten your death is risky, but that does not mean it is unnecessary or imprudent to take the drug.

But I do appreciate your concern and your effort to point out that there are risks.


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## Buddy400

Holdingontoit said:


> When she is physically capable of doing PIV, maybe I will give her a chance to see if she can get me off.


Don't. You'd have wasted all the effort you've put into finally removing your wife's hold over you.

Sex isn't *that* good.


----------



## Buddy400

inmyprime said:


> I hate to be the one to say this but it is against the rules advocating and promoting the use of illegal drugs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What a buzzkill.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> Just because something is a risk does not make it unnecessary. The key is whether the person views their current condition as unpleasant but tolerable as opposed to intolerable or lethal. If you are dying of cancer, trying an experimental drug that might hasten your death is risky but not necessarily an unnecessary or imprudent risk.
> 
> But I do appreciate your warning people to be aware of the risk.


Agreed. Each individual must make his or her own risk assessment. 

I will not pick a bit about use of the word "necessary." Rarely are such risks truly necessary. The question is are the "worth it?" Again that decision is up to the risk taker.

Your example is extreme. The impetus behind taking risky drugs is usually no more dramatic than just wanting to get high.


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## Holdingontoit

Nice weekend. One morning Mrs H let me finger her. Very apparent she was getting nothing out of it so I stopped. Just wanted to test whether she would allow me access.
The next morning she moved toward me and wanted to snuggle. We snuggled for a while. I told her that she turns me on and she started stroking my privates. I was already hard. She seemed pleased with herself. Then I rolled over and walked away.
I very much like not allowing her to seduce me. It feels empowering. Much better than the lousy sex (my fault) that we would have if I let things continue.
Later in the day I told her I was very stressed. Not about her, but about our son, my job, money, bills, etc. She asked if there was anything she could do to help me relax and de-stress. I said "no, sorry, there is nothing you can do".

As I have said over and over again: guys and gals, if you aren't getting as much sex as you want, leave. Now. Today. Before you become warped and broken like me.


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> Nice weekend. One morning Mrs H let me finger her. Very apparent she was getting nothing out of it so I stopped. Just wanted to test whether she would allow me access.
> The next morning she moved toward me and wanted to snuggle. We snuggled for a while. I told her that she turns me on and she started stroking my privates. I was already hard. She seemed pleased with herself. Then I rolled over and walked away.
> *I very much like not allowing her to seduce me. It feels empowering.* Much better than the lousy sex (my fault) that we would have if I let things continue.
> Later in the day I told her I was very stressed. Not about her, but about our son, my job, money, bills, etc. She asked if there was anything she could do to help me relax and de-stress. I said "no, sorry, there is nothing you can do".



You should tell her just that and if you like that so much, then lean into that and ask her to make it a little more challenging for you! Perhaps ask her to tie you up so you can't take the easy way out and just roll over and walk away. Now that sounds like it would make for a fun night!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit

Nah, she is terrible at seduction. It only worked for her before because I was so inexperienced, horny and desperate. If I told her she had to seduce me actively, she would fail and it would ruin the mood for both of us. I remember one night early in our marriage her mother got her a cat suit. She wore it once. I thought she looked so fabulous. I almost came just looking at her walk across the room. But she felt very embarrassed. Sh hated wearing it. She hated feeling like a sex object. Her wearing the cat suit spoiled the mood for the evening rather than enhancing it. She never wore it again despite my telling her how great she looked in it, how much it turned me on, how much I enjoyed watching her walk in it, etc. Actively trying to be sexy / seductive just isn't her thing. I imagine it is PTSD from the rapes, but whatever it is, it overwhelms her.

Plus tying me up would be pointless. She is not skilled at the mechanics of manual, oral, etc. The only way she can get me off is PIV, and only if I am on top. So if she ties me up, then it will lead to embarrassing failure for both of us.

That is the point. We are both inept at sex. It only ever worked for us in the past because God (or evolution) designed the human vagina to be such a good "tool" for helping males reach orgasm. Now that I feel bad about using her vagina as a masturbatory aid, there is nothing left of sex except the power struggle. And at this point I enjoy rejecting her and denying her the satisfaction / power / success far more than I would enjoy the sex.


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> Plus tying me up would be pointless. She is not skilled at the mechanics of manual, oral, etc. The only way she can get me off is PIV, and only if I am on top. So if she ties me up, then it will lead to embarrassing failure for both of us.


I double dare you to get Mrs H. a Hitachi and show her how to use it on you! 

Now if you try that and it fails to work, well then... if you read the fine print on your Hitachi, I think that qualifies you for a free round trip to one of their research labs so they can figure out WTF went wrong there and have an engineer fix that problem. 










All expenses paid! Win Win in my opinion!!!!!

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit

I admire your boundless optimism.

You must know I am not going to try that. I do not want to empower H2 with a way to bring me more sexual pleasure. She already has that. Her vagina. I do not wish to grant her another tool to use to subjugate me. If we got a Hitachi, I would use it on myself. But I don't need a Hitachi, I have my hand.

Now, if she would let me use a Hitachi on her to bring her to orgasm, I am all in favor of that. But she will not allow that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Black & Decker or DeWalt.

Re the earlier refs to LSD trying....I'm not advocating or advising yes/no, but in college days when young and sometimes lacking judgement, friends and I did a couple times.

If doing anything like that always do with one person straight per one who may indulge. Safety reasons 

Our GFs didn't while buddy and I did.

And it was great having GF there during wink wink.


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> I admire your boundless optimism.
> 
> You must know I am not going to try that. *I do not want to empower H2 with a way to bring me more sexual pleasure.* She already has that. Her vagina. I do not wish to grant her another tool to use to subjugate me. If we got a Hitachi, I would use it on myself. But I don't need a Hitachi, I have my hand.
> 
> Now, if she would let me use a Hitachi on her to bring her to orgasm, I am all in favor of that. But she will not allow that.



Get one anyway and just be passive aggressive with it, simply hide the key!


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## Holdingontoit

I love ya man.


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## Holdingontoit

Did not want to derail another thread so I copied this here.



badsanta said:


> @Holdingontoit just out of curiosity you should ask your wife if she would be interested in watching/knowing what it is you do for self pleasure. Not to actually do it in front of her, but just to have a conversation about that.
> 
> I remember having this conversation with many girlfriends back in my college days. This conversation can be a real eye opener because there will be lots of questions and then you get to the part where she reciprocates and might just tell you about what she likes to do all on her own. HELLO?


Yes, I can see how that would work with a healthy woman. With a woman who remains connected to her sexuality. But my wife is an unrecovered trauma victim. Not the same mechanism at all. 

I know you will say I am being naïve and self-protecting, but I do not think my wife masturbates. At all. Ever. I have asked her to show me what she does by herself, and she looks at me like I have 4 heads. Like only a deviant person would touch themselves. She insists she doesn't. If she does, I am quite sure none of her fantasies involve me. Which is OK.

I am also convinced she does not want to know what I do by myself. And frankly, I do not wish to tell her. Because I have long since stopped fantasizing about her. It seems wrong to think of her. It feels like I am violating her. If I fantasize about her desiring me sexually, I am disrespecting everything I know about her. She doesn't desire me. She doesn't enjoy sex with me. Ever. So I don't fantasize about her. And I don't see how it would do me any good to rub that in her face. I don't see her thanking me for respecting her enough not to think about her when I masturbate.

Good suggestion in general. Not applicable to my situation.


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> I do not think my wife masturbates. At all. Ever. I have asked her to show me what she does by herself, and she looks at me like I have 4 heads. Like only a deviant person would touch themselves. She insists she doesn't.


Hypothetically let us say that you are correct and she does not, then her body would then naturally experience hormonal "episodes" while she sleeps. Should occur often enough for her to at least recall a few of these experiences along with what she may have been dreaming. Is she able to discuss this with you or at least acknowledge that it happens?

If she insists that never happens, just pay close attention to how long she hesitates before giving you that answer!

Badsanta


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## 269370

badsanta said:


> Get one anyway and just be passive aggressive with it, simply hide the key!




Mine runs on batteries  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit

badsanta said:


> She must be having "episodes" at night while she sleeps. Is she able to discuss this with you or at least acknowledge that it happens?


No she claims it never happens and does not want to talk about it.



> If she insists that never happens, just pay close attention to how long she hesitates before giving you that answer!


I asked last night. The answer was immediate. No hesitation. "No, I don't." I said "do you mean no, no, no, no , never , ugh, gross?" She said "not no, no, no, no. Just no".

Buddy, I get that you want to help. She claims not to ever feel anything "down there". Not with me. Not with anyone. She claims there is no point for her to masturbate because she doesn't feel anything pleasurable when she touches herself. I am inclined to believe that she was so traumatized by the rapes that her body refuses to allow her to experience pleasurable sensations from sex.

Maybe that is ego protection. Maybe that is living in denial. Maybe she would be hot for some other guy and doesn't want to hurt my feelings. At this point it doesn't matter. I am not willing to invest any time or effort trying to change things. I like the power imbalance in my favor and am determined to never give it up. I do not want to give her the satisfaction of thinking that she has done me a great service and made a huge sacrifice for me. I want it to be crystal clear every waking moment that I am the one making the sacrifice and I am the one who is accommodating their spouse and she is the one who should be grateful I stay with her.

When we were first married, she resented any time I did something "extra" for her. She was terrified that, if she admitted she enjoyed it and that she "owed me one", I would try to turn in that "chip" for sex. So I never got any acknowledgements or any chips. I never got to make any major deposits in her Love Bank. Because she did not want to be in a position where she would have to honor any withdrawals. We talked about that during MC. Now I am the one closing my Love Bank. I refuse to allow her to make any deposits. Because I don't want to have to honor any requests for withdrawals. I like being on this side of the till. Yes, I understand that this makes me the one who is messed up and the one preventing our marriage from improving. I can live with that. Heck, I want to live with that.

As usual, this thread stands for the proposition that no HD should stay in a sexually unsatisfying marriage for long. Because you might end up like me. Warped. Broken. And without any desire to heal.


----------



## MEM2020

You might consider sharing an observation with H2 in a neutral tone. 

A healthy sex life is the intersection trust and attraction. It’s a way to amplify your emotional connection.

Absent trust, sex is all about power and control. 

And then shut up. Don’t debate it. Other than - if she hops into the victim chair - to add: you don’t get to make this about you, it’s an US thing, and it impacts me so try to - at least momentarily - recognize that I’m part of this family also. And being limited to having sex with myself isn’t my first choice. 

——————-
After you get the whole - I’m willing blah blah blah.....

Stick with this: I’m not interested in having sex with someone who clearly doesn’t trust me. 

Because that’s the whole reason she won’t even try and get to the feel good scenario. She doesn’t want to give you an ounce of leverage.






Holdingontoit said:


> No she claims it never happens and does not want to talk about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked last night. The answer was immediate. No hesitation. "No, I don't." I said "do you mean no, no, no, no , never , ugh, gross?" She said "not no, no, no, no. Just no".
> 
> Buddy, I get that you want to help. She claims not to ever feel anything "down there". Not with me. Not with anyone. She claims there is no point for her to masturbate because she doesn't feel anything pleasurable when she touches herself. I am inclined to believe that she was so traumatized by the rapes that her body refuses to allow her to experience pleasurable sensations from sex.
> 
> Maybe that is ego protection. Maybe that is living in denial. Maybe she would be hot for some other guy and doesn't want to hurt my feelings. At this point it doesn't matter. I am not willing to invest any time or effort trying to change things. I like the power imbalance in my favor and am determined to never give it up. I do not want to give her the satisfaction of thinking that she has done me a great service and made a huge sacrifice for me. I want it to be crystal clear every waking moment that I am the one making the sacrifice and I am the one who is accommodating their spouse and she is the one who should be grateful I stay with her.
> 
> When we were first married, she resented any time I did something "extra" for her. She was terrified that, if she admitted she enjoyed it and that she "owed me one", I would try to turn in that "chip" for sex. So I never got any acknowledgements or any chips. I never got to make any major deposits in her Love Bank. Because she did not want to be in a position where she would have to honor any withdrawals. We talked about that during MC. Now I am the one closing my Love Bank. I refuse to allow her to make any deposits. Because I don't want to have to honor any requests for withdrawals. I like being on this side of the till. Yes, I understand that this makes me the one who is messed up and the one preventing our marriage from improving. I can live with that. Heck, I want to live with that.
> 
> As usual, this thread stands for the proposition that no HD should stay in a sexually unsatisfying marriage for long. Because you might end up like me. Warped. Broken. And without any desire to heal.


----------



## MEM2020

One reason we traversed the kessel of the first 15 years is that - there was no attempt to represent any type of symmetry in terms of experience. 

When it was good for M2, it was. And when it was all about me, there was zero pretense.

There was an informal understanding that things were mostly all about M2 outside the bedroom and that, they were somewhat that way in reverse in the bedroom. 

Not saying I didn’t make it as good for M2 as I could. I did. But raw physiology and a skill difference made it a fairly uneven experience.





Holdingontoit said:


> No she claims it never happens and does not want to talk about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked last night. The answer was immediate. No hesitation. "No, I don't." I said "do you mean no, no, no, no , never , ugh, gross?" She said "not no, no, no, no. Just no".
> 
> Buddy, I get that you want to help. She claims not to ever feel anything "down there". Not with me. Not with anyone. She claims there is no point for her to masturbate because she doesn't feel anything pleasurable when she touches herself. I am inclined to believe that she was so traumatized by the rapes that her body refuses to allow her to experience pleasurable sensations from sex.
> 
> Maybe that is ego protection. Maybe that is living in denial. Maybe she would be hot for some other guy and doesn't want to hurt my feelings. At this point it doesn't matter. I am not willing to invest any time or effort trying to change things. I like the power imbalance in my favor and am determined to never give it up. I do not want to give her the satisfaction of thinking that she has done me a great service and made a huge sacrifice for me. I want it to be crystal clear every waking moment that I am the one making the sacrifice and I am the one who is accommodating their spouse and she is the one who should be grateful I stay with her.
> 
> When we were first married, she resented any time I did something "extra" for her. She was terrified that, if she admitted she enjoyed it and that she "owed me one", I would try to turn in that "chip" for sex. So I never got any acknowledgements or any chips. I never got to make any major deposits in her Love Bank. Because she did not want to be in a position where she would have to honor any withdrawals. We talked about that during MC. Now I am the one closing my Love Bank. I refuse to allow her to make any deposits. Because I don't want to have to honor any requests for withdrawals. I like being on this side of the till. Yes, I understand that this makes me the one who is messed up and the one preventing our marriage from improving. I can live with that. Heck, I want to live with that.
> 
> As usual, this thread stands for the proposition that no HD should stay in a sexually unsatisfying marriage for long. Because you might end up like me. Warped. Broken. And without any desire to heal.


----------



## Noble1

@Holdingontoit

I feel the emotions you have in many of your posts and in some way can understand where you are coming from.

The thing that hits me most about your situation via your posts is the total loss of hope on your end.

I do appreciate that you acknowledge that and consistently warn people not to become you.

Somehow I hope that life gives you some rewards too.

Good luck.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@MEM2020: Yes, sex is all about power and control. Her first experience of sex was rape. Rape is all about power and control. And for her, all sex is rape. That is why I refuse to have sex with her.

And yes, good sex requires trust. There is no trust in our marriage. At this point neither of us is trustworthy. Another good reason not to have any sex.

As for accepting that sex is going to be uneven / imbalanced, I could accept that. It could be fair even if it was not equal. But 100% for me and 0% for her, all the time? No, that I cannot accept. I would rather not do it at all.

Last week we went of the first "vacation", just the two of us, without the kids, in years. Actually business trip for me and I let her tag along. I have been averse to letting her join me on my last few business trips abroad. Too many meetings and not enough free time and she would become a distraction and a burden rather than a source of comfort. But this one was at a resort with a single client so I felt there would be plenty of down time and she would enjoy it without pulling me away from my work duties. We got there a day early and the first morning (before the others arrived) we slept in and she offered herself to me sexually. I turned her down. I told her it was too much a #MeToo for me. I said "you don't really want to, and you don't get anything out of it". She said "I wouldn't say I don't want to, but on the not getting anything out of it - I can't help you on that." We did snuggle a bit after that.

The last night of the trip we were at a work dinner with about 7 people. She was sitting next to the CEO and they were talking about the role of sex in marriage. They agreed among themselves it was not a central aspect of marriage. I did not join that part of their chat. When we got back to the hotel, she told me about that part of their chat. She was surprised that he told her some very personal (and unflattering in a "not very skilled" way rather than in a creepy "trying to come on to you" way) a aspects of his past. I told her that she seems to have a knack for getting people to open up about their inner lives. It is part of what makes her so successful in her job. Then she said "he agrees with us that sex is not that important a part of marriage". I said "do not include me in that we. I think sex is a crucial aspect of marriage. In our marriage it has been disastrously negative and painful. But it is nonetheless important." She gave me a disapproving look. I said "hey, this is why we work well being together. Neither one of us is willing to work on our inner demons. And each of us accepts that the other person is not going to work on their demons. We accept each other warts and all." Silence.

I do not expect a breakthrough. She will not work on her demons. I will not work on mine. She knows I am unhappy. She takes no responsibility for that. Which is correct. As she often says, each of us is responsible for our own happiness. I have decided not to be happy. She has decided to stay with me despite my being permanently unhappy. We have each made our choices. Every once in a while she encourages me to choose to be happier. Pigs will fly first.


----------



## BigDigg

H2 .... you only get one life. Live it well...


----------



## Holdingontoit

@BigDigg: Thanks for the concern. Long past the point of no return for me.


----------



## In Absentia

Holdingontoit said:


> Long past the point of no return for me.


There's logic in your madness, somewhere...


----------



## Holdingontoit

In Absentia said:


> There's logic in your madness, somewhere...


Yes. It should be obvious. If you can't see it clearly, you are probably giving me too much credit for being a decent human being. I'm not. But I play one on Internet discussion forums. Sometimes people have a hard time recognizing the real me behind the mask.


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,

I wouldn’t accept that level of imbalance either. 





Holdingontoit said:


> @MEM2020: Yes, sex is all about power and control. Her first experience of sex was rape. Rape is all about power and control. And for her, all sex is rape. That is why I refuse to have sex with her.
> 
> And yes, good sex requires trust. There is no trust in our marriage. At this point neither of us is trustworthy. Another good reason not to have any sex.
> 
> As for accepting that sex is going to be uneven / imbalanced, I could accept that. It could be fair even if it was not equal. But 100% for me and 0% for her, all the time? No, that I cannot accept. I would rather not do it at all.
> 
> Last week we went of the first "vacation", just the two of us, without the kids, in years. Actually business trip for me and I let her tag along. I have been averse to letting her join me on my last few business trips abroad. Too many meetings and not enough free time and she would become a distraction and a burden rather than a source of comfort. But this one was at a resort with a single client so I felt there would be plenty of down time and she would enjoy it without pulling me away from my work duties. We got there a day early and the first morning (before the others arrived) we slept in and she offered herself to me sexually. I turned her down. I told her it was too much a #MeToo for me. I said "you don't really want to, and you don't get anything out of it". She said "I wouldn't say I don't want to, but on the not getting anything out of it - I can't help you on that." We did snuggle a bit after that.
> 
> The last night of the trip we were at a work dinner with about 7 people. She was sitting next to the CEO and they were talking about the role of sex in marriage. They agreed among themselves it was not a central aspect of marriage. I did not join that part of their chat. When we got back to the hotel, she told me about that part of their chat. She was surprised that he told her some very personal (and unflattering in a "not very skilled" way rather than in a creepy "trying to come on to you" way) a aspects of his past. I told her that she seems to have a knack for getting people to open up about their inner lives. It is part of what makes her so successful in her job. Then she said "he agrees with us that sex is not that important a part of marriage". I said "do not include me in that we. I think sex is a crucial aspect of marriage. In our marriage it has been disastrously negative and painful. But it is nonetheless important." She gave me a disapproving look. I said "hey, this is why we work well being together. Neither one of us is willing to work on our inner demons. And each of us accepts that the other person is not going to work on their demons. We accept each other warts and all." Silence.
> 
> I do not expect a breakthrough. She will not work on her demons. I will not work on mine. She knows I am unhappy. She takes no responsibility for that. Which is correct. As she often says, each of us is responsible for our own happiness. I have decided not to be happy. She has decided to stay with me despite my being permanently unhappy. We have each made our choices. Every once in a while she encourages me to choose to be happier. Pigs will fly first.


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## Holdingontoit

MEM2020 said:


> I wouldn’t accept that level of imbalance either.


No, you probably wouldn't. But you likely would have had the perception to realize the mechanism early on and the self-confidence to leave as soon as you did.


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## notmyrealname4

@Holdingontoit

What would you do if you knew you had only 3 months to live?



What would you do if you won the lottery?


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## Holdingontoit

@notmyrealname4: In either event, I would not live my life the way I am living it. But until those events occur, I will continue to live it this way. I understand this choice guarantees I will not be happy. I am content with that. I long ago stopped trying to be happy. As I have said many times, I am playing a very different game. A dark and twisted game. But I am doing much better at this game than I ever did at trying to be happy. So I will continue playing my game. You are free to make different choices and I hope you do.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> The last night of the trip we were at a work dinner with about 7 people. She was sitting next to the CEO and they were talking about the role of sex in marriage. They agreed among themselves it was not a central aspect of marriage. I did not join that part of their chat. When we got back to the hotel, she told me about that part of their chat.



This woman has been trying to have sex with you for how many months now? Now she is trying to make you jealous by chatting about sex to your superior? I know how these conversations go...both parties tend to commiserate to each other about how disappointing and unimportant sex is, while having wild monkey sex with each other...

Ok, this may be my imagination talking. I understand the reasons you are not willing anymore to have sex with her again. 
You have to understand (ok you don’t have to, but you might want to) that what she currently needs is closeness with you, through sexual interaction. Whereas what you require is her to orgasm, as a sign that she ‘genuinely’ has enjoyed it.

You are making it all too complicated in your head. You can just give her what she wants (the closeness/the bond, even if she doesn’t cum during it; it really does not matter to some women if they don’t/can’t cum yet for some reason, it’s all that matters to many men. It’s puzzling.) while you can get yours. You will help her that way to feel like a more normal human being (and not just a ‘freak’ of rape victim that she feels she is, in your eyes) and be the bigger person. Don’t be so angry with yourself.



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## MEM2020

Totally disagree with this. 

She’s trying to have completely one sided sex with him. That’s a lot different than not being able to come. 




inmyprime said:


> This woman has been trying to have sex with you for how many months now? Now she is trying to make you jealous by chatting about sex to your superior? I know how these conversations go...both parties tend to commiserate to each other about how disappointing and unimportant sex is, while having wild monkey sex with each other...
> 
> Ok, this may be my imagination talking. I understand the reasons you are not willing anymore to have sex with her again.
> You have to understand (ok you don’t have to, but you might want to) that what she currently needs is closeness with you, through sexual interaction. Whereas what you require is her to orgasm, as a sign that she ‘genuinely’ has enjoyed it.
> 
> You are making it all too complicated in your head. You can just give her what she wants (the closeness/the bond, even if she doesn’t cum during it; it really does not matter to some women if they don’t/can’t cum yet for some reason, it’s all that matters to many men. It’s puzzling.) while you can get yours. You will help her that way to feel like a more normal human being (and not just a ‘freak’ of rape victim that she feels she is, in your eyes) and be the bigger person. Don’t be so angry with yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> Totally disagree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> She’s trying to have completely one sided sex with him. That’s a lot different than not being able to come.



Two things: 

1. Well she’s not posting here...Otherwise I would try to find ways to encourage her to have sex with him too. Otherwise shall we just all add fuel towards more of his resentment? As if it’s not taking over his life completely already. He’s not planning to leave her anytime soon. So what’s the point? I like to focus on the outcome, not the methods: he changes his mindset, his/their life changes.

2. She is a rape victim and unable to feel or experience certain things. This may not excuse her in his eyes. However it’s the same as being mad at a mute for not being able to speak. Does it mean you should never talk to a mute if they can’t speak back?




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## 269370

Let me ask @Holdingontoit then: would you consider having sex with your wife if she would orgasm?

If not, why not?


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## MEM2020

So my take on Holding - is that he is a sincere person. His thread is very consistent and seems very honest to me. 

And the way it seems, is that his wife has abused her position of power in the bedroom for the whole marriage. 

I find it hard to believe that she is unaware that she’s made him a victim of her prior experiences. 





inmyprime said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1. Well she’s not posting here...Otherwise I would try to find ways to encourage her to have sex with him too. Otherwise shall we just all add fuel towards more of his resentment? As if it’s not already taking over his life completely already. He’s not planning to leave her anytime soon. So what’s the point? I like to focus on the outcome, not the methods: he changes his mindset, his/their life changes.
> 
> 2. She is a rape victim and unable to feel or experience certain things. This may not excuse her in his eyes. However it’s the same as being mad at a mute for not being able to speak.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370

MEM2020 said:


> So my take on Holding - is that he is a sincere person. His thread is very consistent and seems very honest to me.


I don’t believe people lie when they come here with their versions of events. I equally think there are two people that make for a situation - that’s simply the inherent nature of the beast. (This concept surely cannot only be obvious to me?)



MEM2020 said:


> And the way it seems, is that his wife has abused her position of power in the bedroom for the whole marriage.


Maybe she has. At least in his eyes. What if she is not aware that she has a ‘power’.





MEM2020 said:


> I find it hard to believe that she is unaware that she’s made him a victim of her prior experiences.



That’s a moot point. She keeps trying to initiate intimacy with him, repeatedly. He finds it a slap in the face because he feels she would ‘not be enjoying herself’ so why bother. Why is she not allowed to get any points for trying, is what I want to know. 

How would he envisage her enjoyment manifesting itself to a satisfactory degree for him? 

And why is she initiating any intimacy at all, if she supposedly hates it so much. Just to tease him? Come on. He has half-manufactured a conspiracy theory to add to his already very strong sense of resentment towards her. Because at this point (after many many years of rejection), finding creative ways to resent her is a more pleasant experience for him than sex with his wife. 

Unfortunately she (a sexually broken/damaged person) broke him too in the process, to some extent. I don’t think she did it deliberately. And I don’t think there’s anyone at fault. How to move forward is the only thing that really matters. They want to stay together. Why not try to make the best of it? Is it because it would be too easy? 




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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> You can just give her what she wants (the closeness/the bond, even if she doesn’t cum during it; it really does not matter to some women if they don’t/can’t cum yet for some reason, it’s all that matters to many men. It’s puzzling.) while you can get yours. You will help her that way to feel like a more normal human being (and not just a ‘freak’ of rape victim that she feels she is, in your eyes) and be the bigger person. Don’t be so angry with yourself.


She does not want the closeness. There is no bond. When we have sex, she dissociates. Her body goes slack. Her eyes go glassy. She does not move or make any noise. It is like she has checked out mentally. When we first got together and early in our marriage I even used to ask her "where do you go when we have sex? I would really like it if you were here with me when we are together". 

Then after years of MC she finally admitted she had been raped multiple times before we got married. Then it took more years of very infrequent sex and me doing research about unrecovered rape victims to realize what was happening. She behaves during sex with me like she behaved during the rapes. Checking out to try to ignore what was happening to her body. Just waiting for it to be over so she could return to her body and mind from whatever corner she hides in during sex.

She doesn't want to have sex to feel normal. She wants to have sex to be able to tell herself that she is doing her duty as a wife and that she is the one making a sacrifice in our marriage. As @MEM2020 said, it is all about power and control. She doesn't want to feel skin on skin contact. She hates skin on skin contact with me. She hates hugs. She refuses to open mouth kiss. She cringes and pulls away when I try to touch her (not sexually, just stroke her arm when we are lying next to one another). She has a zone of personal space and she hates when I invade it. She wants to have sex so she can score points. So she can tell herself she is meeting my needs and being a good wife.

She does not smile after sex. She does not enjoy that I am happy (back when it used to make me happy to have sex with her). She feels used and violated. That is why I no longer have sex with her. I am not going to do that to her, and then have her hold it against me.



inmyprime said:


> She keeps trying to initiate intimacy with him, repeatedly.


Not quite. 3 or 4 times since she finished her cancer treatments in the spring of 2017. I think she thought it was worth trying while on vacation, because back in the days of MC I expressed how painful it was to go on vacation and not have any sex and even the female MC encouraged her to consent to some sex when we went away without kids on a 10 day vacation. So she figured it was worth a try when I agreed to let her join me on a business trip to a resort destination. 

I wouldn't expect her to try repeatedly. From what I can tell of our limited experience, she would have responsive desire if she had any desire at all. So her initiating is very uncomfortable for her. I realize it must be terribly disappointing to be rejected. I wish I felt sorrier for her. But I would be lying if I said I did. I told you I am no longer a good / nice person.



inmyprime said:


> Because at this point (after many many years of rejection), finding creative ways to resent her is a more pleasant experience for him than sex with his wife.


Exactly. Well, close enough. It is actually worse than that. But you are correct. I do not enjoy sex with her. It is not a pleasant experience. I feel dirty and evil when we have sex. I wish I were ignorant and could enjoy it when it happens as I did before I realized what it was doing to her. Yes, it would be much easier if she had simply consented back when we were doing MC and I would have blithely taken my pleasure and she would have hidden her pain so as to bestow a gift on me. Unfortunately, it is no longer a gift. It is now a curse.

What would she have to do or feel for me to be willing to have sex with her? Orgasm? No, I don't think so. She would just have to be THERE. Not mentally flying away to some distant galaxy while she tries to ignore what is happening to her body. How would she communicate to me that she is now capable of doing that? I honestly have no idea. But I do know that as long as she is totally unwilling to discuss her attitude toward sex and her feelings during and after sex, there is no way for her to convince me. Because I am not going to address this by "trial and error" and seeing if it is different on one occasion or another.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> She does not want the closeness. There is no bond. When we have sex, she dissociates. Her body goes slack. Her eyes go glassy. She does not move or make any noise. It is like she has checked out mentally. When we first got together and early in our marriage I even used to ask her "where do you go when we have sex? I would really like it if you were here with me when we are together".
> 
> 
> 
> Then after years of MC she finally admitted she had been raped multiple times before we got married. Then it took more years of very infrequent sex and me doing research about unrecovered rape victims to realize what was happening. She behaves during sex with me like she behaved during the rapes. Checking out to try to ignore what was happening to her body. Just waiting for it to be over so she could return to her body and mind from whatever corner she hides in during sex.
> 
> 
> 
> She doesn't want to have sex to feel normal. She wants to have sex to be able to tell herself that she is doing her duty as a wife and that she is the one making a sacrifice in our marriage. As @MEM2020 said, it is all about power and control. She doesn't want to feel skin on skin contact. She hates skin on skin contact with me. She hates hugs. She refuses to open mouth kiss. She cringes and pulls away when I try to touch her (not sexually, just stroke her arm when we are lying next to one another). She has a zone of personal space and she hates when I invade it. She wants to have sex so she can score points. So she can tell herself she is meeting my needs and being a good wife.
> 
> 
> 
> She does not smile after sex. She does not enjoy that I am happy (back when it used to make me happy to have sex with her). She feels used and violated. That is why I no longer have sex with her. I am not going to do that to her, and then have her hold it against me.




Can you help me understand: how would she hold it against you?
And what is wrong with ‘trying to be a good wife’? Your more recent posts indicate that she has been hugging and kissing you more, as well as holding your hand etc (am I misremembering?). This seems to contradict this post.

Also: rather than making this as some kind of ploy against you...is there any possibility she could be initiating because she just wants to feel like a normal person for a change? (Which includes being accepted for whatever state it is, the rape experiences have left her in).

Anyway...I shouldn’t meddle. You both are still together...so whatever it is you guys are doing or not doing is obviously working for your relationship....


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> She does not want the closeness. There is no bond. When we have sex, she dissociates. Her body goes slack. Her eyes go glassy. She does not move or make any noise. It is like she has checked out mentally. When we first got together and early in our marriage I even used to ask her "where do you go when we have sex? I would really like it if you were here with me when we are together".
> 
> Then after years of MC she finally admitted she had been raped multiple times before we got married. Then it took more years of very infrequent sex and me doing research about unrecovered rape victims to realize what was happening. She behaves during sex with me like she behaved during the rapes. Checking out to try to ignore what was happening to her body. Just waiting for it to be over so she could return to her body and mind from whatever corner she hides in during sex.
> 
> She doesn't want to have sex to feel normal. She wants to have sex to be able to tell herself that she is doing her duty as a wife and that she is the one making a sacrifice in our marriage. As @MEM2020 said, it is all about power and control. She doesn't want to feel skin on skin contact. She hates skin on skin contact with me. She hates hugs. She refuses to open mouth kiss. She cringes and pulls away when I try to touch her (not sexually, just stroke her arm when we are lying next to one another). She has a zone of personal space and she hates when I invade it. She wants to have sex so she can score points. So she can tell herself she is meeting my needs and being a good wife.
> 
> She does not smile after sex. She does not enjoy that I am happy (back when it used to make me happy to have sex with her). She feels used and violated. That is why I no longer have sex with her. I am not going to do that to her, and then have her hold it against me.
> 
> 
> 
> Not quite. 3 or 4 times since she finished her cancer treatments in the spring of 2017. I think she thought it was worth trying while on vacation, because back in the days of MC I expressed how painful it was to go on vacation and not have any sex and even the female MC encouraged her to consent to some sex when we went away without kids on a 10 day vacation. So she figured it was worth a try when I agreed to let her join me on a business trip to a resort destination.
> 
> I wouldn't expect her to try repeatedly. From what I can tell of our limited experience, she would have responsive desire if she had any desire at all. So her initiating is very uncomfortable for her. I realize it must be terribly disappointing to be rejected. I wish I felt sorrier for her. But I would be lying if I said I did. I told you I am no longer a good / nice person.




Well you took her on a nice vacation...you can’t be that terrible 


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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: you ask excellent questions. You have put your finger on exactly what is wrong here. If we were not both so broken, your questions would point to the path to healing.

As it is, not only am I past the point of trying to heal, I am actively opposed to healing. You are correct. She is not allowed to try to be a good wife. She does not get points for trying. Just as I did not get any points for trying to be a good husband early in our marriage. She feared I would try to cash in the points for sex. I fear she would try to cash in the points for spending money and taking her on vacations. The difference between us is that she never waivered in her refusal to allow me to cash in "chips" for sex. Whereas I am weak and I do not trust myself to reject her if she earns some "points". The only way I can be sure to never give in to her requests is to maintain a high level of resentment and never allow her to even try to earn points.

Remember, shortly after I first demanded that we attend MC to address the lack of sex, she spent all our (my - she did not have any) savings and ran up tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt. We have had substantial credit card debt for almost 2 decades. My fault for not scaling back our lifestyle to fit my income and generate excess to repay debt. Emotionally, it feel like I stand on The Wall. Winter is coming. You are asking me to let one or two white walkers cross The Wall. You seem to think I can handle that. I know that if even 1 white walker crosses the wall, all is lost. Might not be for another man. It is for me.

Look, we all know I am weak. if I were not so weak, I would not have accepted this for so long. I know I am weak, so I take that weakness into account in making my choices. You may suggest that I change strategies and learn to be stronger. I will never make that choice. Mores the pity. For both of us.


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## MEM2020

Holding,

The money thing - shaking my head. That’s just very selfish and wrong. 




Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: you ask excellent questions. You have put your finger on exactly what is wrong here. If we were not both so broken, your questions would point to the path to healing.
> 
> As it is, not only am I past the point of trying to heal, I am actively opposed to healing. You are correct. She is not allowed to try to be a good wife. She does not get points for trying. Just as I did not get any points for trying to be a good husband early in our marriage. She feared I would try to cash in the points for sex. I fear she would try to cash in the points for spending money and taking her on vacations. The difference between us is that she never waivered in her refusal to allow me to cash in "chips" for sex. Whereas I am weak and I do not trust myself to reject her if she earns some "points". The only way I can be sure to never give in to her requests is to maintain a high level of resentment and never allow her to even try to earn points.
> 
> Remember, shortly after I first demanded that we attend MC to address the lack of sex, she spent all our (my - she did not have any) savings and ran up tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt. We have had substantial credit card debt for almost 2 decades. My fault for not scaling back our lifestyle to fit my income and generate excess to repay debt. Emotionally, it feel like I stand on The Wall. Winter is coming. You are asking me to let one or two white walkers cross The Wall. You seem to think I can handle that. I know that if even 1 white walker crosses the wall, all is lost. Might not be for another man. It is for me.
> 
> Look, we all know I am weak. if I were not so weak, I would not have accepted this for so long. I know I am weak, so I take that weakness into account in making my choices. You may suggest that I change strategies and learn to be stronger. I will never make that choice. Mores the pity. For both of us.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> What would she have to do or feel for me to be willing to have sex with her? Orgasm? No, I don't think so. She would just have to be THERE. Not mentally flying away to some distant galaxy while she tries to ignore what is happening to her body. * How would she communicate to me that she is now capable of doing that? I honestly have no idea. But I do know that as long as she is totally unwilling to discuss her attitude toward sex and her feelings during and after sex, there is no way for her to convince me. * Because I am not going to address this by "trial and error" and seeing if it is different on one occasion or another.



You might be setting the bar at exactly the ‘height’ where you know she will fail (with the bolded)...
I know this won’t make any difference, but I will say it anyway: some women (even the ones that have not been raped), hate discussing sex or their feelings towards sex, during and especially after sex.
They may do so once they become significantly more comfortable with sex and their bodies but even then, it’s often too personal.
As is being present. Some women (again, even the ones that have not been raped), need this element of dissociation in order to try to get into the ‘zone’. You should try not to take it personally sometime, but just as a characteristic of how sex affects them. You maybe expecting too much at this stage and it just adds to pressure for her (it becomes a catch22 situation for both of you). It’s baby steps at a time and practice makes perfect etc.
Take some tantric classes together?  Get Sting as your guru.






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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Look, we all know I am weak. if I were not so weak, I would not have accepted this for so long. I know I am weak, so I take that weakness into account in making my choices. You may suggest that I change strategies and learn to be stronger. I will never make that choice. Mores the pity. For both of us.



Yes, you can write this as many times as you want, I won’t believe you : I judge people by their actions more than their words: the fact that you stuck with her, despite how you feel she treated you, says a lot about your devotion to your family.

I don’t think you need to be ‘stronger’: I think you should maybe stop second guessing her motivations and perhaps get a better frame of reference for the context of the situation.
Also take a leaf out of Christianity (mainly that leaf ) and learn to forgive.



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## Holdingontoit

@inmyprime: I love your optimism and persistence. I do not want to discourage you, but you are way off base. 

We did more than MC back in the day. We hired AASECT certified sex therapists to try to help us get more comfortable with and skilled at sex. H2 did not do a single "homework" exercise. With several different STs. Over several years. We would get to a good place in MC, and H2 could not reasonably say that my poor behavior was the cause of the lack of sex. So she would agree to see a ST. But then she would lie and hide and deflect and, most importantly, absolutely refuse to do any of the exercises. No hugging with clothes on. No sitting across from each other naked and just looking. No getting a mirror and looking at herself. No naked massages. Nothing. Zero.

Tantric classes together? Dude, she won't take ballroom dancing classes with me.

I'm sorry, but you simply cannot imagine how abjectly awful every aspect of our physical relationship has been. You simply have no frame of reference for physical interaction being such an epic failure every single time. In your mind, you start with something simple and enjoy that and move on to other things and by process of trial and error, find additional things you enjoy together. We have nothing simple that we both enjoy to start with. We have never had any session where we tried something new and both enjoyed it. We have never surprised each other on the upside. There is nothing fun and playful when we are together. The fun and playful side of me, if it ever existed (off-hand, I cannot remember ever possessing one regarding sex), has long since been pummeled into non-existence.


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## Violet28

This is a fascinating thread. Does your wife have any insight into herself?


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> @inmyprime: I love your optimism and persistence. I do not want to discourage you, but you are way off base.



Off base with what? That I don’t think you are such a terrible person as you try so hard to portray yourself? That you are not as miserable with her as it comes across? That you are not weak for not leaving her? That I don’t think her initiating intimacy is necessarily a cold hearted twisted ploy to regain ‘control’ and not just something nice she wants to do for you, within her limited capabilities.
Maybe I am. It’s all about the perspective though. 
Ballroom dancing is much harder than sex classes btw. There’s nothing you can really do wrong.




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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> As is being present. Some women (again, even the ones that have not been raped), need this element of dissociation in order to try to get into the ‘zone’. You should try not to take it personally sometime, but just as a characteristic of how sex affects them. You maybe expecting too much at this stage and it just adds to pressure for her (it becomes a catch22 situation for both of you). It’s baby steps at a time and practice makes perfect etc.


I get that. I get that some women don't like to initiate. And some don't like to talk about sex. Before, during or after. And some women have to tune out vision and hearing to focus on the pleasurable sensations in order to "get there" during sex. If I thought that H2 was trying to "get there" during sex, I would be happy to leave her alone and not intrude into her blind, silent, mute enjoyment. H2 isn't trying to get there. She is trying to run away mentally because she feels compelled to remain in place physically.



> Ballroom dancing is much harder than sex classes btw. There’s nothing you can really do wrong.


You have never had sex with me. Trust me, there are so many things I can do wrong, it has pretty much ruined sex for me.


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## Holdingontoit

Violet28 said:


> This is a fascinating thread. Does your wife have any insight into herself?


That she would admit to another human being? No. She absolutely refuses to discuss it. With me. With our MCs. With the STs.
Is it theoretically possible that she knows in her heart but refuses to admit it to others? Yes, theoretically possible but very unlikely. Is it more likely that she tells herself no women enjoy sex and she is normal? Yes. Is it possible that she simply refuses to think about it at all because if she gave it thought she would realize she is damaged and she ought to address the cause of her pain? Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

See, I know I am damaged and I refuse to invest much in healing myself, so it is far easier for me to understand and accept how she thinks than it would be for most people. Most people when they identify a problem, they seek to rectify it. Everyone who knows me knows that I ain't most people.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> You have never had sex with me. Trust me, there are so many things I can do wrong, it has pretty much ruined sex for me.



You are funny. Some women would find this enough to get off. 



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## musicftw07

I have followed this thread for months but never commented on it until now. I find @Holdingontoit to be incredibly self aware about his situation and perceptive regarding his wife. I also have a tremendous amount of empathy for him.

When you've allowed something to control you your entire life, being able to exert a level of control and resist that which has hurt you can be the only thing left to...well, hold on to.

I'm not going to suggest anything to try to rectify the situation. I don't feel as though that's what he's looking for by posting here. I get the impression he just wants to be heard and needs a place to get it out.

I hear you, man. It may be a **** sandwich, but at least your wife has to eat her half of it too. Doesn't mean I don't hope for a happier outcome for you, but I also get why you don't jump through any more hoops. At some point a person needs to realize when something is a lost cause.

Misery loves company.


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## Violet28

Have you ever been tested for Aspergers? There is a quality to your writing that is reminiscent of many adults with an ASD diagnosis that I've worked with. There is a logic to their thought patterns that does not always make sense to other people, but always interesting to hear the reasoning behind it. One man told he will not learn or do anything unless he sees a value in it. Utterly practical, no? Until you hear all the things that he refused to learn because he found no value in it. It wasn't stubbornness or defiance that caused him to refuse to consider to learn these things, rewards and reinforcement were meaningless, if he didn't see a point in it no power on earth would make him consider it.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> You are funny. Some women would find this enough to get off.


Some women would find it enough to consider having sex with me. Once. After they have had sex with me, no woman considers my sense of humor worth doing THAT again.


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## Tron

Holdingontoit said:


> Some women would find it enough to consider having sex with me. Once. After they have had sex with me, no woman considers my sense of humor worth doing THAT again.


Have you ever considered hiring a sex surrogate to show you the ropes. You know...train you...to help you figure things out better? 

That is why people practice. Practice makes perfect. 

Since your W isn't going to enjoy it either way, why waste your time there. Go find you an alternate. You might actually get good at it.


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## Holdingontoit

Tron said:


> Have you ever considered hiring a sex surrogate to show you the ropes. You know...train you...to help you figure things out better?


Interesting question. Have considered it. H2 is not in favor. Plus, if I learned how to be better, I would be more inclined to divorce. I am quite determined not to divorce. So I am leery of heading down a path that provides little practical benefit in my current situation and much temptation to blow things up.

I can see how someone (many people) might think that "blowing things up" would be the best outcome for me and for H2. If you hold that view, then yes, seeing a sex surrogate to learn better skill would make sense.

Anyway, we have no room in our budget for the lengthy series of sessions that would be required to get me from where I am to where I was something other than pathetically inept.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> Interesting question. Have considered it. H2 is not in favor. *Plus, if I learned how to be better, I would be more inclined to divorce. I am quite determined not to divorce. * So I am leery of heading down a path that provides little practical benefit in my current situation and much temptation to blow things up.
> 
> I can see how someone (many people) might think that "blowing things up" would be the best outcome for me and for H2. If you hold that view, then yes, seeing a sex surrogate to learn better skill would make sense.
> 
> Anyway, we have no room in our budget for the lengthy series of sessions that would be required to get me from where I am to where I was something other than pathetically inept.


You need to hook that treadmill you're on up to the power grid. You could power a small town with your efforts.


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## Tron

Holdingontoit said:


> Interesting question. Have considered it.


Recently? 



Holdingontoit said:


> H2 is not in favor.


Naturally. 



Holdingontoit said:


> Plus, if I learned how to be better, I would be more inclined to divorce. I am quite determined not to divorce. So I am leery of heading down a path that provides little practical benefit in my current situation and much temptation to blow things up.


"Little practical benefit in my current situation"? Is self improvement of little practical benefit? I don't believe that you would find that opinion universally accepted. 

I won't argue with "much temptation to blow things up", but I think that would be a personal decision, made on a case by case basis.



Holdingontoit said:


> I can see how someone (many people) might think that "blowing things up" would be the best outcome for me and for H2. If you hold that view, then yes, seeing a sex surrogate to learn better skill would make sense.


As I said, you blowing things up would be totally up to you...or her I suppose. 

As for your control over the situation, I proffer that the control would remain where it current sits.



Holdingontoit said:


> Anyway, we have no room in our budget for the lengthy series of sessions that would be required to get me from where I am to where I was something other than pathetically inept.


That is your opinion of course, but it seemed like you guys were pretty well off. The surrogate could simply take the place of another one of your hobbies. 

Of course, if your only hobby these days is complaining about your W and otherwise opining on TAM then you must be living on a tight budget indeed...and never mind.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Tron said:


> The surrogate could simply take the place of another one of your hobbies.


Congratulations. Somehow you managed to be eminently practical and hysterically funny all in the same sentence!


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## Holdingontoit

Tron said:


> That is your opinion of course, but it seemed like you guys were pretty well off. The surrogate could simply take the place of another one of your hobbies.
> 
> Of course, if your only hobby these days is complaining about your W and otherwise opining on TAM then you must be living on a tight budget indeed...and never mind.


We basically live paycheck to paycheck with large credit card debt piled up. We "blow" our money on trips to see the kids or flying them home to see us. I do not have any expensive hobbies. No boats, cars, bikes, golf clubs, etc.

And yes, this is far and away my biggest "hobby". I have made no secret that I am not here to resolve the issue, just gripe and warn others away from making the same choices I did.


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## 269370

Tron said:


> Have you ever considered hiring a sex surrogate to show you the ropes. You know...train you...to help you figure things out better?
> 
> 
> 
> That is why people practice. Practice makes perfect.
> 
> 
> 
> Since your W isn't going to enjoy it either way, why waste your time there. Go find you an alternate. You might actually get good at it.



He can do it fine I’m sure. He’s had sex with more women than me. The problem is you maybe get a very low opinion/hang ups of yourself if your woman is sexually...’impaired’.


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> He can do it fine I’m sure. He’s had sex with more women than me. The problem is you maybe get a very low opinion/hang ups of yourself if your woman is sexually...’impaired’.


I wish that were the case. I had sex with several women before I got married. Only 2 were more than once. The other ones were all once and terrible. I had terrible ED. I often climaxed before I was fully inside the woman. Given my small size, that is quite an accomplishment! On more than one occasion I have listened to a woman call out another man's name while we were having sex. I had one steady partner my last year of graduate school. We were both students, had plenty of free time, and managed to have sex once a week on Saturday night. Do you think I "can do it fine" if at age 24 I couldn't convince my steady girlfriend to have sex more often than once per week? I had my next girlfriend about 4 years later. We also pretty much only had sex one night on the weekend. She made comments that I enjoyed hearing at the time, but in retrospect were her way of gently encouraging me to be better in bed. Unfortunately, I never took the hint.

See, that is one reason why I did not complain more during the early years of my marriage. My only 2 experiences with a "long term" relationship involved sex no more often than weekly. So having sex once a week with my fiance did not seem unusual. And when it dropped to once every 2 or 3 weeks after we got married, it did not seem like such an enormous drop. My low self-esteem and major hang ups pre-date meeting H2.

And they are evidence based. I do not "do it fine". I do it pathetically poorly. The idea of hiring a sex surrogate to teach me better technique was a good one. I very much need one. Or I would need one if I intended to ever have sex more than once or twice a year.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> I wish that were the case. I had sex with several women before I got married. Only 2 were more than once. The other ones were all once and terrible. I had terrible ED. I often climaxed before I was fully inside the woman. Given my small size, that is quite an accomplishment! On more than one occasion I have listened to a woman call out another man's name while we were having sex. I had one steady partner my last year of graduate school. We were both students, had plenty of free time, and managed to have sex once a week on Saturday night. Do you think I "can do it fine" if at age 24 I couldn't convince my steady girlfriend to have sex more often than once per week? I had my next girlfriend about 4 years later. We also pretty much only had sex one night on the weekend. She made comments that I enjoyed hearing at the time, but in retrospect were her way of gently encouraging me to be better in bed. Unfortunately, I never took the hint.
> 
> See, that is one reason why I did not complain more during the early years of my marriage. My only 2 experiences with a "long term" relationship involved sex no more often than weekly. So having sex once a week with my fiance did not seem unusual. And when it dropped to once every 2 or 3 weeks after we got married, it did not seem like such an enormous drop. My low self-esteem and major hang ups pre-date meeting H2.
> 
> And they are evidence based. I do not "do it fine". I do it pathetically poorly. The idea of hiring a sex surrogate to teach me better technique was a good one. I very much need one. Or I would need one if I intended to ever have sex more than once or twice a year.



One of the first things I said when I read your thread is that I think feeling humiliated is your comfort zone.
You seem to always have associated sex with humiliation and it seems to be your thing. It also determined your choice in partner: you found someone who you knew (consciously or subconsciously) would either despise or simply refuse having sex with you (due to her own hang ups). Otherwise you would t have married your wife. You don’t want to change the situation because you designed the situation the way it is and it’s the one you are most comfortable with. Otherwise you would have changed it years ago.
You said before that you would t be comfortable being with someone sexual where you had the pressure to perform at top level several times a week. And I don’t think you’d want that.


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## Holdingontoit

Yes, exactly. I know which torture I can tolerate. This one is better for me.

My entire life is driven by fear of trying and failing. I am much more comfortable not trying at all.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, exactly. I know which torture I can tolerate. This one is better for me.
> 
> 
> 
> My entire life is driven by fear of trying and failing. I am much more comfortable not trying at all.



I wish someone told you early on that being ‘bad’ at sex (whatever that means) is not a failure just as being ‘good’ at it, is not a special achievement in itself. 
Sex is a bit like eating: when you are hungry, you eat. When you are horny, you ****. 
Does anyone give a **** how great you are at eating? It’s just one of those things.

Sex in a higher sense is also the expression of love once you are in a committed relationship; otherwise it has little/no meaning or value, (in itself). Perhaps your fear is not of sex or failing at sex. Your fear is of loving. Since you loathe yourself, how can you expect to find it easy to love someone else?

You should talk to someone more intelligent/introspective than me because you seem to be a classic case of being a ‘bundle of neurosis’ and someone should ‘disentangle’ you.



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## Violet28

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, exactly. I know which torture I can tolerate. This one is better for me.
> 
> My entire life is driven by fear of trying and failing. I am much more comfortable not trying at all.


You a ham, straight up, bruh.


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## Violet28

Holdingontoit said:


> Yes, exactly. I know which torture I can tolerate. This one is better for me.
> 
> My entire life is driven by fear of trying and failing. I am much more comfortable not trying at all.


I have a question! In your single days, if the sex was so terrible, did you try to learn ways to improve it or did you simply repeat the same pattern over and over?


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## Holdingontoit

Violet28 said:


> I have a question! In your single days, if the sex was so terrible, did you try to learn ways to improve it or did you simply repeat the same pattern over and over?


Well, I read books on how to be a better lover. And on the rare occasions when I had a steady partner, I asked what I could do to make it better for her. Neither of them had any answers. Now I know that having to ask is a turnoff to many women.

On the other hand, what kind of woman do you think would have been willing to have sex with me more than once? A woman who is comfortable in her sexuality, has substantial experience and knows what she likes and doesn't like in bed? Not likely to date me in the first place much less sleep with me more than once.

Back then I thought the only things I had to offer women were my income, my intention to be a devoted father, and a quirky sense of humor. Good in bed wasn't far down the list, it wasn't even on the list. I attracted and sought women who wanted what I was offering. So naturally I attracted women who didn't care much about sex but who wanted a husband with a steady paycheck and who would help raise their kids.

As for repeating the pattern, yes, I did repeat it. Date a few dates. Have sex. Sex was horrible. I never wanted to see them again. I know, I shot myself in the foot.

But @inmyprime has it correctly. I don't actually want to be with a woman who encourages me to become better. I don't want to have to face the pressure of her having expectations that, with practice, I would improve.

Someone here on TAM had me pegged correctly. I am un####able. Not because I am so horrendously ugly (although no one would accuse me of being handsome). But because I am so willing to quit after the first failure.


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## john117

"A woman who is comfortable in her sexuality, has substantial experience and knows what she likes and doesn't like in bed? Not likely to date me in the first place much less sleep with me more than once."

That's the thing that in statistics we call clustering. The "proficient" minority counts pair up and light up the bedsheets while the ho hum majority counts don't have remotely the success. Within a population you have these clusters of high activity and that's it, never mind Kinsley et al trying to convince us of the existence of a happy medium. 

It's Pareto's law to the bitter end.


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## Holdingontoit

Violet28 said:


> Does your wife have any insight into herself?


I think she finally has a glimmer. Lately she has been very apologetic. To the point that our DD and I both noticed and said "why are you apologizing, you haven't done anything wrong?". She says that she feels she is not a good person. I cannot think of anything else that she would hold against herself.

And no, that does not motivate me to try again. I told you - I used to be a good person, but I no longer am good. As @inmyprime said, I enjoy creating justification for my resentment more than I enjoy sex with my wife. And I absolutely refuse to allow her to earn any "points" in our marriage. We actually had sex a few weeks ago. She was cranky the entire week after that. She apologized for being cranky. I don't care. I don't mind her being cranky. Just puts more relationship points into my account for tolerating her crankiness without complaint. The fact that she tolerated sex disappears, so I don't have to give her any points. Win for me!


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> We actually had sex a few weeks ago.



Good stuff!
It’s never too late...



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## In Absentia

inmyprime said:


> Good stuff!
> It’s never too late...



I can't find this *"We actually had sex a few weeks ago"* quote in the last few pages... if it's true, I consider it cheating and the whole world is actually crashing down on me... :smile2:

BTW... it's our first anniversary of no sex today... 12 months... first monster dry spell since I was 20...


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## Holdingontoit

inmyprime said:


> Good stuff!
> It’s never too late...


No, exactly the opposite. The sex was not good. I felt bad about myself after. And apparently so did she, since she was cranky for a week.

It is long past too late for us. Every so often I "test the water" to see if anything has changed. So far, nothing has changed. I am still lousy in bed and she is still PTSD triggered whenever she has sex with me. Both of us wish things were different. Neither of us is willing to do anything to change our current reality.

The difference is that I am pleased that she feels guilty. And in a perverse way, pleased that she will never be able to escape the guilt. She would need my consent and cooperation to build a better physical relationship between us. And I will never grant that consent. Equal and balanced and symmetrical. Oh yes, I am cutting off my nose to spite my face. But as long as my face is unhappy, I am content. See, I am a mouth breather - so I don't have much use for my nose. I guess all the insults against mouth breathers have a kernel of truth. I guess we really are deviant.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> No, exactly the opposite. The sex was not good. I felt bad about myself after. And apparently so did she, since she was cranky for a week.
> 
> 
> 
> It is long past too late for us. Every so often I "test the water" to see if anything has changed. So far, nothing has changed. I am still lousy in bed and she is still PTSD triggered whenever she has sex with me. Both of us wish things were different. Neither of us is willing to do anything to change our current reality.
> 
> 
> 
> The difference is that I am pleased that she feels guilty. And in a perverse way, pleased that she will never be able to escape the guilt. She would need my consent and cooperation to build a better physical relationship between us. And I will never grant that consent. Equal and balanced and symmetrical. Oh yes, I am cutting off my nose to spite my face. But as long as my face is unhappy, I am content. See, I am a mouth breather - so I don't have much use for my nose. I guess all the insults against mouth breathers have a kernel of truth. I guess we really are deviant.



Well small steps and all...I still think it’s a positive. Just imagine that the harder and more often you bang her, the more guilty both of you will feel afterwards, and you come to realise that that’s what most marriages are about 


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## Holdingontoit

Nah. Our relationship was too co-dependent on my side. I don't want more sex. I want more independence. And when I turn her down or ignore her subtle signals, I get more freedom. I am not taking small steps toward connection. I am running in the opposite direction.


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## Holdingontoit

Did not want to threadjack about women's desire in LTRs, so I am posting this here.



Faithful Wife said:


> I know some of us assume that because we know your story. But sometimes it does get confusing if you are talking about yourself versus what others should do.


I have said this once and I will say it 1000 times: I am here to stand as an example of what not to do. I would never suggest someone make the same choices I have made. When I comment on what I am doing and why, it is not to convince others to follow my lead. It is to warn others away from my path. To make public the internal dialogue I am having - so that some other poor sap who is thinking along the same lines says to himself "OMG, I am telling myself the same thing Hold tells himself - I better run in the other direction!"


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> To make public the internal dialogue I am having - so that some other poor sap who is thinking along the same lines says to himself "OMG, I am telling myself the same thing Hold tells himself - I better run in the other direction!"


 @Holdingontoit generally speaking people on social media have the attention span per thread as a butterfly per flower. I forget the exact metrics, but I think you have about eight seconds or less to get your point across and do not expect people to go digging around for your backstory. 

So when you give advice, if it rings a bell with an attitude someone here has, it will likely serve to just validate them for feeling that way and encourage more of it. I don't think it will serve to make them run in the other direction. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit

Oh, I agree. I only get likes or replies on a newspaper comment section when my comments are short and pithy.

Here on TAM, I approach it differently. "Drive by" posters who want a quick and simple answers, or confirmation of their pre-existing interpretation and intention, they aren't going to pay any attention to my advice no matter how it is presented. Only the people who stay a while will respond, and only a portion of them.

But a significant number of people who stick around a while are BHs who don't want to accept the hard choice they have to make. They are driven by fear of the negatives of setting boundaries. As @MEM2020 often says, they are often very ego protective. Those who stay here because they know deep down what they should do but can't bring themselves to overcome their fear, those are the people who need to hear my message. That "staying for the kids" can be even worse than divorce. Because you may not lose money but you may well lose yourself.

And in the end, for me this is an enjoyable distraction from making all my rich clients even richer. I have no close friends IRL, and none who I share the "real me" with. So being able to come here and post fairly honestly is a necessary relief valve for the stress from living a disingenuous life.


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## MEM2020

Holding,
That’s true for all of us. A first post, usually shows whether the person is looking for others to tell them their outcome is normal, or at least not uncommon. Then there are those who explicitly say they are just venting, and they do indeed mean that.

As to the rest, it is remarkably difficult to get folks to see the mid point in a marital power struggle. The mid point isn’t, put out or get out. But rather: I need a certain amount of time, attention and love. Going forward I will be giving that to myself. If that is a deal breaker for you, I’m ok with that. 





Holdingontoit said:


> Oh, I agree. I only get likes or replies on a newspaper comment section when my comments are short and pithy.
> 
> Here on TAM, I approach it differently. "Drive by" posters who want a quick and simple answers, or confirmation of their pre-existing interpretation and intention, they aren't going to pay any attention to my advice no matter how it is presented. Only the people who stay a while will respond, and only a portion of them.
> 
> But a significant number of people who stick around a while are BHs who don't want to accept the hard choice they have to make. They are driven by fear of the negatives of setting boundaries. As @MEM2020 often says, they are often very ego protective. Those who stay here because they know deep down what they should do but can't bring themselves to overcome their fear, those are the people who need to hear my message. That "staying for the kids" can be even worse than divorce. Because you may not lose money but you may well lose yourself.
> 
> And in the end, for me this is an enjoyable distraction from making all my rich clients even richer. I have no close friends IRL, and none who I share the "real me" with. So being able to come here and post fairly honestly is a necessary relief valve for the stress from living a disingenuous life.


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## Holdingontoit

We were talking last Sunday about Facebook pictures and I was describing how Mrs H feels differently about some pictures than other women would, because of her history of being sexually abused. She agreed that I was describing her internal dialogue accurately. Then she realized she had admitted to things she steadfastly refused to admit during 8 years of MC. She quickly changed the subject. She got pissy for a few minutes. Then she realized that I knew all along and I have stayed with her, so she went back to being pleasant. Miracles do exist!


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> Miracles do exist!


Don't ever give up hope for things to change. Even if you keep your hope tamped down to almost nothing with resentment and anger. Perhaps you could go to counseling again....


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## 2020hindsight

Confused. What Facebook pictures does she feel "differently" about? That's so vague.


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## Holdingontoit

There are pictures she hates where she looked awesome. I tell her that some women desperately wished they ever looked as good in a pair of shorts or a bathing suit as she looks. I said I understand that this is another aspect or what the rapists stole from her. She doesn't feel pleased or proud when she looks good. She feels terrified and vulnerable that some jerk will see her and like what he sees and rape her. She is much happier with her body now (and she shows more skin) because she feels that with her age and her mastectomies and her scars, men won't find her attractive and they won't rape her. She agreed that she feels as described above (previously terrified of looking sexy, now comfortable that she never looks sexy so it is OK for her to be seen).

After that brief discussion, she realized that she just admitted to displaying the PTSD symptoms I have often remarked upon. And to her having lied all those years when she said the rapes did not leave any permanent changes in her attitude toward men, sex, etc. But since we aren't having sex, her admission doesn't make any difference in our relationship.


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> ....her admission doesn't make any difference in our relationship.


Since you have already been through counseling do you mind me asking if it would have changed the dynamics of those sessions had your wife been more open to admitting her feelings? 

What I am getting at is if you think it may help to revisit counseling...

Badsanta


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## Holdingontoit

badsanta said:


> Since you have already been through counseling do you mind me asking if it would have changed the dynamics of those sessions had your wife been more open to admitting her feelings?
> 
> What I am getting at is if you think it may help to revisit counseling...


Depends on what you mean by "help".
Remember when I posted the three step process that is certain to "work" to end a sexual mismatch. And people took issue with me because my suggested process would often lead to divorce. Which they claimed showed that my process did not "work". But hey, I never said it would "work" to create a great sex life among the couple, I only said it would "work" to end the sexual mismatch. And it does, because after divorce, there is no mismatch even if there isn't any sex.

So when you say "help", do you mean it would have "fixed" my sex life with Mrs H? Or do you mean that it would "help" because honesty would make it clear that I have to leave to improve my sex life.

"Changing the dynamics" doesn't necessarily mean improving the sex. It might mean clarifying that we have an irreconcilable difference on that issue. One reason we stopped counselling was that I never wanted to reach the stage where the therapist looked at me and said "dude, if I were you I would think long and hard about leaving".

I enjoy being the martyr. I didn't enjoy the first 20 years of our marriage because she got to be the martyr. She was the one having undesired sex - even if not very often. That sacrifice dwarfed my frustration at the frequency. Now I am the martyr. I prefer this position. You might think balance or at least switching back and forth is possible. You would be incorrect.


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## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> Now I am the martyr. I prefer this position. You might think balance or at least switching back and forth is possible. You would be incorrect.


I enjoy being incorrect, that is how I learn.


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## hptessla

Holdingontoit said:


> Did not want to threadjack about women's desire in LTRs, so I am posting this here.
> 
> 
> 
> I have said this once and I will say it 1000 times: I am here to stand as an example of what not to do. I would never suggest someone make the same choices I have made. When I comment on what I am doing and why, it is not to convince others to follow my lead. It is to warn others away from my path. To make public the internal dialogue I am having - so that some other poor sap who is thinking along the same lines says to himself "OMG, I am telling myself the same thing Hold tells himself - I better run in the other direction!"


Hmmm...
Not sure.
If you're getting periodic sex you're doing better than I and several others on here are. Is she having an affair per chance? That might even things up for some of us.


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## 269370

Holdingontoit said:


> Did not want to threadjack about women's desire in LTRs, so I am posting this here.
> 
> 
> 
> I have said this once and I will say it 1000 times: I am here to stand as an example of what not to do. I would never suggest someone make the same choices I have made. When I comment on what I am doing and why, it is not to convince others to follow my lead. It is to warn others away from my path. To make public the internal dialogue I am having - so that some other poor sap who is thinking along the same lines says to himself "OMG, I am telling myself the same thing Hold tells himself - I better run in the other direction!"



I think apart from the occasionally awkward sex situation, you are doing better than many couples...


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## badsanta

InMyPrime said:


> I think apart from the occasionally awkward sex situation, you are doing better than many couples...


Perhaps I missed something but I was under the impression that @Holdingontoit is in a completely sexless marriage now for many years. Nonsexual intimacy exists and there is a good friendship. If there is the occasionally awkward situation here and there, I missed that. I have read accounts to where he thought something might happen, but then she rejected the idea which was upsetting. When it used to happen a long time ago, it was problematic enough that he basically has decided to just leave that in the past and let it go. Almost as if he has sacrificed that side of himself to remain by his wife's side and still be her friend. 
@Holdingontoit correct me if I am wrong?


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## 269370

badsanta said:


> Perhaps I missed something but I was under the impression that @Holdingontoit is in a completely sexless marriage now for many years. Nonsexual intimacy exists and there is a good friendship. If there is the occasionally awkward situation here and there, I missed that. I have read accounts to where he thought something might happen, but then she rejected the idea which was upsetting. When it used to happen a long time ago, it was problematic enough that he basically has decided to just leave that in the past and let it go. Almost as if he has sacrificed that side of himself to remain by his wife's side and still be her friend.
> 
> 
> @Holdingontoit correct me if I am wrong?



Yes, I think his past probably sucked (well technically, there was some serious lack of sucking...) due to his wife’s sexual history (which I don’t think anyone knows any details of as far as I know, except her). But it seems in recent years, his wife has been wanting to be wanted, intimately, to feel like a ‘normal’ person, even though when it happens, H doesn’t think she is enjoying it and he hates himself so much that he cannot get himself to do it.
There are several things going on....apart from the obvious (sexual assault etc). One of them is that H lost any/most of his sense self worth and confidence because he has been rejected so much in the past. But they still seem to like each other and I think there can still be moments of intimacy to be had but I’m not sure H is that keen anymore.
Sorry H if I got stuff wrong. I just meant that there are other couples who hate each other’s guts yet still remain together (for reasons I don’t understand). At least you only hate yourself which is only half as bad 
You can keep hating yourself but if for whatever reason she needs you to slip a finger or two down there or needs you to experience manly pleasures for yourself, with her (to feel she is adequate enough as a wife), don’t deny her this pleasure...



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## Holdingontoit

hptessla said:


> Hmmm...
> Not sure.
> If you're getting periodic sex you're doing better than I and several others on here are. Is she having an affair per chance? That might even things up for some of us.


That was 20 years ago. We were having sex once every 2 or 3 weeks. I complained and insisted on MC. Frequency went down from there and never recovered.

Fast forward to today. We have not had sex in 4 years. And I do not expect we will ever have sex again. It was basically 1 or 2 times a year for the decade before that - so it wasn't difficult to give it up entirely. Actually felt like a relief and very freeing.

Still, I agree I have it better than others since my wife has never cheated. I also agree, there are worse things in life than not having any sex.


----------



## Holdingontoit

And to be clear, I do not think I am a fabulous husband who deserves a better wife. I have many flaws and Mrs H would be well rid of me. Part of the reason I choose to stay "stuck" is that it relieves me of the responsibility to work on my weak areas. This way I don't feel guilty about eating unhealthy foods, total lack of exercise, no strength, no stamina, beer belly, etc. I know I am unattractive, but I don't feel any obligation to improve myself. I am not stuck here. I choose to stay here. Big difference.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> Still, I agree I have it better than others since my wife has never cheated.


I'm not so sure this is having it better. Were she to cheat, that might actually light a fire under your ass to kick her ass out and move on. But no, as it stands, you remain willfully trapped in your own purgatory. Sexlessness is not synonymous with fidelity.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Wow, interesting anniversary weekend.

Mrs H started in a good mood. Very affectionate. She wanted to have sex. Anniversary is one of the 3 days per year (her birthday, Valentine's and anniversary) when I have promised her that if she asks for sex, she will get some. I know how much it hurts to be rejected on those occasions. She asked, and we tried. I was very gentle (she complimented me on that the following day), but it was still too uncomfortable and she asked to stop within a short period of time. We cuddled afterward.

The rest of the weekend she picked at me and accused me of all manner of insulting behavior. Some things I did. Some things I should not have done. A couple of times I snapped at her from frustration.

She said she did not appreciate being snapped at, especially after she had sex for the first time in a long while (her words). I apologized. Total surrender. There is nothing to discuss. A big part of why I refuse to have sex with her most days of the year is that her having sex is such a big deal to her that she expects me to fall down at her feet profusely thanking her for it. Which I cannot bring myself to do. When we first met, I did exactly that. I was so happy to have someone who would have sex with me once every week or two that I kissed the ground she walked on. I think she married me in part because I behaved that way. Now I am not so horny and desperate and I simply do not feel the overwhelming thankfulness. And I won't pretend I do.

Makes it very clear to me that we should never have sex. She needs a reaction to it that I cannot provide. May have to rethink the "never say no on the big days" rule.


----------



## In Absentia

Holdingontoit said:


> May have to rethink the "never say no on the big days" rule.



I think you should... according to your "philosophy", it doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,
This is why so many marriages end. 

Current Desire Level = Original Desire Level * (1/(Partner loss of desirableness * Your loss of testosterone)

If I put you in the room with your wife from 30 years ago - you would still crave her. Youth is chemically magical both for raw desire and raw desirability. 

You ought to share that you will pass next time if she is going to expect the princess treatment after incomplete sex where neither of you even finish.

Note: This is value neutral language. You aren’t saying the sex was lame - just incomplete, which is factually accurate. 





Holdingontoit said:


> Wow, interesting anniversary weekend.
> 
> Mrs H started in a good mood. Very affectionate. She wanted to have sex. Anniversary is one of the 3 days per year (her birthday, Valentine's and anniversary) when I have promised her that if she asks for sex, she will get some. I know how much it hurts to be rejected on those occasions. She asked, and we tried. I was very gentle (she complimented me on that the following day), but it was still too uncomfortable and she asked to stop within a short period of time. We cuddled afterward.
> 
> The rest of the weekend she picked at me and accused me of all manner of insulting behavior. Some things I did. Some things I should not have done. A couple of times I snapped at her from frustration.
> 
> She said she did not appreciate being snapped at, especially after she had sex for the first time in a long while (her words). I apologized. Total surrender. There is nothing to discuss. A big part of why I refuse to have sex with her most days of the year is that her having sex is such a big deal to her that she expects me to fall down at her feet profusely thanking her for it. Which I cannot bring myself to do. When we first met, I did exactly that. I was so happy to have someone who would have sex with me once every week or two that I kissed the ground she walked on. I think she married me in part because I behaved that way. Now I am not so horny and desperate and I simply do not feel the overwhelming thankfulness. And I won't pretend I do.
> 
> Makes it very clear to me that we should never have sex. She needs a reaction to it that I cannot provide. May have to rethink the "never say no on the big days" rule.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Apparently one of my sins was to pay too much attention to my 80-something year old mother walking with a limp and a cane on July 4th. Mr Hold wanted the same treatment. She feels that her eye problems (which are real and uncomfortable for her) qualify her for "disability treatment". OK, fine, I did not realize that a person who goes walking for a couple of miles in the park with her girlfriends is too disabled to walk up or down a short flight of steps without falling, but if she wants to be treated gingerly I am happy to oblige.

I did all day Sunday. And was rewarded by being sent to the dog house the whole time. No problem, I did yard work and then went to a local fair. We had dinner together. Very tense and awkward on her side.

That is another reason we don't have sex. When I make a mistake that ticks her off (everyone makes mistakes), the amount of time it takes to be forgiven can often be measured in weeks. When we were having sex, being sent to the corner for weeks was very unpleasant. Now, I am not missing out on anything good when she is in a bad mood - because it certainly is no fun to be with her when she is pouting. Now she tends to get over herself quicker, because her pouting does not get her anything she wants.


----------



## PieceOfSky

When you turn her down, do you ever politely state this pouty payback behavior is one of the reasons why?


----------



## Holdingontoit

No. It happens only once or twice a year. No point in having a discussion. She has PTSD. She has admitted it. She does not want to do the work to overcome it. That is OK, I don't want to do the work to overcome my flaws and insecurities either. But if she isn't going to address the PTSD, then picking on her for having PTSD isn't going to accomplish anything productive.


----------



## CraigBesuden

Can you get her to move with you to another state, then divorce her in the new state with no alimony?

Have you considered buying a sex doll that looks like a younger version of Mrs H — or her best friend or worst enemy?


----------



## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> No. It happens only once or twice a year. No point in having a discussion. She has PTSD. She has admitted it. She does not want to do the work to overcome it. That is OK, I don't want to do the work to overcome my flaws and insecurities either. But if she isn't going to address the PTSD, then picking on her for having PTSD isn't going to accomplish anything productive.


Picking on her for anything was not what I had in mind. 

Stating the truth about what you experienced and what you thought she might have been experiencing, and why that makes you reluctant to put her or you through it when she asks next time doesn’t seem like a waste of time. How long could it take — a few minutes? What’s the worst that could happen — that she fails to notice you trying to understand her and be understood?

You said earlier there was a particular thing you were not willing to pretend. Why are you willing to pretend when it comes to what is really going on inside of you?


----------



## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> No. It happens only once or twice a year. No point in having a discussion. She has PTSD. She has admitted it. She does not want to do the work to overcome it. That is OK, I don't want to do the work to overcome my flaws and insecurities either. But if she isn't going to address the PTSD, then picking on her for having PTSD isn't going to accomplish anything productive.


Correct me if I am wrong, but her admitting to having some PTSD is only a very recent thing? The idea that she refuses to work to overcome it is an old aspect of therapy? 

So it would sound better if you say that you have been to therapy long ago and she refused to admit that she has a problem nor will she work on it. However here recently she has finally admitted that she has a problem, but you assume that she will still not be willing to work on it.

Have you asked her if she is willing to work on that now that she has admitted it? If she did want to work on it, would you be open to helping her do that? The fact that you are at peace with her deciding not to address it at least puts you in a place to discuss it. Unless you would be upset by her finally asking you for help, but I would hope you could let go of that.

Badsanta


----------



## Holdingontoit

PieceOfSky said:


> Picking on her for anything was not what I had in mind.


She will view it as picking on her no matter how it is phrased. I am the same way. She asks me certain questions and I take offense. It isn't always the wording or tone that triggers flooding. Sometimes there isn't any safe way to broach a particular topic.



> You said earlier there was a particular thing you were not willing to pretend. Why are you willing to pretend when it comes to what is really going on inside of you?


Because I want her to stay married to me, and I am worried that if I admitted the full truth to her, she might not want to stay. Yes, that is dishonest and manipulative on my part. I can live with that.


----------



## Holdingontoit

badsanta said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but her admitting to having some PTSD is only a very recent thing? The idea that she refuses to work to overcome it is an old aspect of therapy?


Correct.



> Have you asked her if she is willing to work on that now that she has admitted it?


No. 



> If she did want to work on it, would you be open to helping her do that?


No. 



> The fact that you are at peace with her deciding not to address it at least puts you in a place to discuss it. Unless you would be upset by her finally asking you for help, but I would hope you could let go of that.


Take another look at my user name. Letting go is not what I do.
I don't want to fix the problem. I want to wallow in an unending pity party. Trying to fix the problem at this point requires much effort on my part. I was never able to perform well and my less and less frequent masturbation sessions indicate I would have alot of trouble performing at this point. I don't want to put myself through that. No, better that she never faces her issues so I never feel obligated to face mine. That has been my game plan for many years. I am actually surprised that it has taken her this long to begin to catch on.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Holdingontoit said:


> She will view it as picking on her no matter how it is phrased. I am the same way. She asks me certain questions and I take offense. It isn't always the wording or tone that triggers flooding. Sometimes there isn't any safe way to broach a particular topic.
> 
> 
> 
> *Because I want her to stay married to me, *and I am worried that if I admitted the full truth to her, she might not want to stay. Yes, that is dishonest and manipulative on my part. I can live with that.


Why? You hold her in such contempt. 

I venture a guess that your self loathing is do deep and intense, 
1. it's only effective outlet is to self flagellate, and staying hanging on to this horrific union is your best way of doing that 
and
2. your deep seated hatred of yourself must extend beyond yourself, and having her close allows you a focus point for your hate and misery


----------



## Holdingontoit

^^^^^ Ding ding ding! We have a winner ^^^^^


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## Holdingontoit

To be fair, she a great person. Loyal to her friends. Devoted to our children. Excellent employee.
We have much in common. Very compatible.
We just have negative chemistry. But I would have negative chemistry with any woman - so a desire for chemistry is not a reason for me to leave Mrs H and go searching for someone else. I will pay a heavy price and have nothing to show for it.


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,

You are honest in a way that few people are. It is a beautiful thing in and of itself. That said, you might consider telling H2 to let you know when she isn’t angry anymore so that you may resume normal interaction. And then just avoid her company til that happens. 

The fastest path to sanity for M2 - is me completely doing my own thing when she has dis regulated over nothing.....




Holdingontoit said:


> She will view it as picking on her no matter how it is phrased. I am the same way. She asks me certain questions and I take offense. It isn't always the wording or tone that triggers flooding. Sometimes there isn't any safe way to broach a particular topic.
> 
> 
> 
> Because I want her to stay married to me, and I am worried that if I admitted the full truth to her, she might not want to stay. Yes, that is dishonest and manipulative on my part. I can live with that.


----------



## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> Take another look at my user name. Letting go is not what I do.
> I don't want to fix the problem. I want to wallow in an unending pity party. Trying to fix the problem at this point requires much effort on my part.


I assume your user name is about "Holding on to Hope" that things will one day get better. Nothing you say will ever change my mind! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## Holdingontoit

badsanta said:


> I assume your user name is about "Holding on to Hope" that things will one day get better. Nothing you say will ever change my mind.


That is what I intended it to mean when I first started using that handle 20 years ago. It now has a different meaning. 

Maybe I still do have some small hope. But it is like my hope to win the lottery. It would be nice, but since I don't buy any lottery tickets, not likely to occur. When I started, I had enough hope that I was willing to make a big effort and twist myself into whatever contortions might be necessary to bring it into being. Now I am not willing to invest any time or energy working toward the hoped-for goal. So I make life choices on the basis that my sexual hopes have about as much chance of being realized as my chances of winning the lottery without buying any tickets.


----------



## badsanta

Holdingontoit said:


> That is what I intended it to mean when I first started using that handle 20 years ago. It now has a different meaning.
> 
> Maybe I still do have some small hope. But it is like my hope to win the lottery. It would be nice, but since I don't buy any lottery tickets, not likely to occur. When I started, I had enough hope that I was willing to make a big effort and twist myself into whatever contortions might be necessary to bring it into being. Now I am not willing to invest any time or energy working toward the hoped-for goal. So I make life choices on the basis that my sexual hopes have about as much chance of being realized as my chances of winning the lottery without buying any tickets.


Awkwardly enough you have to not care about something in order to have the power needed to change it. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Holdingontoit

badsanta said:


> Awkwardly enough you have to not care about something in order to have the power needed to change it.


Never said I didn't care. I still care. It still causes me pain (much less than before though). I simply despair of it ever happening, and refuse to take any action that would change the situation.

As I have said, in all ways other than sexually, I get along with H2 much better absent sex than when pursuing sex. So I choose to accept the other things and abandon the pursuit of sex. It bothers me. But not as much as trying, failing, and in the process destroying many of the positive aspects of our marriage. I don't believe I can "have it all". And I am actively opposed to trying to get it.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Holdingontoit said:


> As I have said, in all ways other than sexually, I get along with H2 much better absent sex than when pursuing sex. So I choose to accept the other things and abandon the pursuit of sex. It bothers me. But not as much as trying, failing, and in the process destroying many of the positive aspects of our marriage. I don't believe I can "have it all". And I am actively opposed to trying to get it.


She has been in a terrible mood since we tried to have sex. Last night she was going on and on about how nice she had been to me, so nice that she even tried to have sex with me, and in response I am mean to her. Confirms my initial suspicion that this is about her trying to have sex with me, and me not being sufficiently appreciative. Not going to make that mistake again. Told her last night that she doesn't have to worry about providing sex to me, because we aren't going to have sex again. She said "that is not what I want to hear. What are we if we don't have sex? Roommates? How do we bond?" I told her we can bond with hugs and snuggles and kisses. She was not comforted.

WTF, does she really think we have been bonding through sex for the past 10 or 15 years? Does she really think I am staying for the once or twice a year sex?


----------



## Tron

Holdingontoit said:


> Told her last night that she doesn't have to worry about providing sex to me, because we aren't going to have sex again. She said "that is not what I want to hear. What are we if we don't have sex? Roommates? How do we bond?" I told her we can bond with hugs and snuggles and kisses. She was not comforted.
> 
> WTF, does she really think we have been bonding through sex for the past 10 or 15 years? Does she really think I am staying for the once or twice a year sex?


I'd just tell her the truth, that you two are not bonded in any form or fashion except on paper and then quit the hugs, snuggles and kisses...permanently. 

Roommates sounds exactly like what you are. That is the house that she built.


----------



## Noble1

Nothing to add here. Wanted to let you know that you are being heard and you have a safe place to vent here.

I want to show my support to you but cannot "like" your posts as they seem so sad.

Part of the reason they seem so sad is that I can totally relate. I'm not so far along that road yet so I still have lots of hope for now so I want to learn indirectly from your experience.

Good luck.


----------



## Affaircare

Holdingontoit said:


> She has been in a terrible mood since we tried to have sex. Last night she was going on and on about how nice she had been to me, so nice that she even tried to have sex with me, and in response I am mean to her. Confirms my initial suspicion that this is about her trying to have sex with me, and me not being sufficiently appreciative. Not going to make that mistake again. Told her last night that she doesn't have to worry about providing sex to me, because we aren't going to have sex again. She said "that is not what I want to hear. What are we if we don't have sex? Roommates? How do we bond?" I told her we can bond with hugs and snuggles and kisses. She was not comforted.
> 
> WTF, does she really think we have been bonding through sex for the past 10 or 15 years? Does she really think I am staying for the once or twice a year sex?


MrsH: "I have been so nice to you...I even tried to have sex with you!... and in response you're mean to me!"
H: "Trying to have sex with me is not being nice. You have made it clear that you HATE sex with me or anyone, and that you have no desire whatsoever to work on your issues surrounding sex, so I have chosen to stay with you inspite of your aversion...yet you persist in bringing it up over and over. I no longer even WANT sex with you or with anyone. If you want to be nice to me, accept that we are not having sex again and your once-a-year attempts are no longer needed. If you want to be nice to me, try to give to me without expectation of your specific response OR ELSE. I'm tired of being abused because I didn't dance the way you wanted me to dance."

H: "You don't have to worry about providing sex to me because we aren't going to have sex again. 
MrsH: "...that is not what I want to hear. What are we if we don't have sex? Roommates? How do we bond?"
H: "How have we been bonding for the past 10-15 years that you've denied sex and refused to work on it? Yes, for our entire marriage we have been roommates. The difference between us is that I've accepted we are roommates and find my happiness in other ways...you are in denial."


----------



## MEM2020

Holding,

In a very non confrontational tone you might point out that sex feels like something she LETS YOU DO TO HER. As opposed to it being something YOU DO WITH EACH OTHER. 

And that bonding activities are typically bi-directional. 




Holdingontoit said:


> She has been in a terrible mood since we tried to have sex. Last night she was going on and on about how nice she had been to me, so nice that she even tried to have sex with me, and in response I am mean to her. Confirms my initial suspicion that this is about her trying to have sex with me, and me not being sufficiently appreciative. Not going to make that mistake again. Told her last night that she doesn't have to worry about providing sex to me, because we aren't going to have sex again. She said "that is not what I want to hear. What are we if we don't have sex? Roommates? How do we bond?" I told her we can bond with hugs and snuggles and kisses. She was not comforted.
> 
> WTF, does she really think we have been bonding through sex for the past 10 or 15 years? Does she really think I am staying for the once or twice a year sex?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

MEM2020 said:


> And that bonding activities are typically bi-directional.


Thermonuclear truth bomb right there.


----------



## PieceOfSky

She doesn’t understand the depths of your despair, or the pain her chronic rejections have caused. She doesn’t understand why sacrificing to give you what she thought you wanted causes you stress and sadness, rather than relief and contentment. She’s afraid because what was supposed to work didn’t. She wants you to be relaxed and happy and generally pleased to be with her, but feels you are not. She is afraid.

She’s hurting. You’re hurting. You have some things in common. And some great big misunderstandings. I wish you both would turn towards each other, and try to understand where the other is at these days, and maybe have some sympathy for each other.


----------



## CraigBesuden

It’s better to mutually be honest than to mutually act like *******s.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@PieceOfSky: great post. Correctly summarizes exactly where we are. Unfortunately, no sympathy left.
I do my best to be relaxed and happy and generally pleased with her. I get thrown off my game when she expects me to fall to the ground and kiss her feet. If we never try to have sex, she won't expect the obsequiousness and I can stay in character.



CraigBesuden said:


> It’s better to mutually be honest than to mutually act like *******s.


Depends on what your goal is.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Noble1 said:


> Part of the reason they seem so sad is that I can totally relate. I'm not so far along that road yet so I still have lots of hope for now so I want to learn indirectly from your experience.


If you are even 2 or 3 steps down my road, change direction. Drop the rope. If your spouse isn't enthusiastic about having sex with you, stop having sex. Hit the gym. Rock it at work. Be as attractive as you can be. If your spouse asks why you haven't initiated sex, say you were busy focusing on other areas. See if they complain and ask for sex. Focus on whether the underlying motivation on their side is the lack of sex, because they like it and miss it, or are pushing for an explanation of why you have't initiated - because they fear their power and control over you slipping away.

If your spouse doesn't mention the absence of sex within a week or 2 (assuming you typically have sex at least that often), you have your answer. Your spouse does not desire sex with you. If you want sex, time to leave. If you don't typically have sex every week or 2, save yourself a lot of grief and file for divorce. Your spouse can always entice you back if that is what they want.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

Noble1 said:


> Nothing to add here. Wanted to let you know that you are being heard and you have a safe place to vent here.
> 
> I want to show my support to you but cannot "like" your posts as they seem so sad.
> 
> Part of the reason they seem so sad is that I can totally relate. I'm not so far along that road yet so *I still have lots of hope* for now so I want to learn indirectly from your experience.
> 
> Good luck.


I had a wise boss once who was fond of saying *"Hope is not a plan."*

Learn as much as you can, not only from HoldingOnToIt's experience but all the other men who have posted on this site with similar issues. No shortage of threads on this topic and there's a lot of variety in the background, solutions, and levels of success achieved. There is no one-size-fits-all here.


----------



## PieceOfSky

Holdingontoit said:


> I do my best to be relaxed and happy and generally pleased with her. I get thrown off my game when she expects me to fall to the ground and kiss her feet.


“No sympathy left” — Understandable, and I’m sorry I threw that out there.

Still, I wonder (in a non-condemning way) why set yourself up to be thrown off your game? It seems to me that is effectively what you do by keeping clarifying truths out of your non-productive conversations, when conversations come up. Seems the game is rigged for her to get miffed because of her misunderstanding, so you can be like “WTF”? 

Being more authentic doesn’t mean you have to be open to more sex attempts with her. It just means you can come out from behind the mask, breath more easily, and let go of some of your pain about this. Why can’t that be your goal?


----------



## In Absentia

PieceOfSky said:


> Why can’t that be your goal?


Because he wants the pain.


----------



## Holdingontoit

In Absentia said:


> Because he wants the pain.


Exactly. 

And I don't want to take the financial hit. Or the hit to our kids. And I don't think there is anything better for me "out there". I never had a successful sexual relationship in my life. I don't think I would be able to find one now. And I know I won't put in the effort required to be successful.

My wife can tell I am just "mailing it in". She feels stuck with me. But she, too, is not prepared to take the financial hit or to do the internal work to become a better partner for someone else. I am willing to stay despite her flaws. And so far she is willing to stay despite mine.
@PieceOfSky: I cannot take the mask off and be authentic. We both want to live as Rick described to Lazlo at the end of Casablanca "she pretended to love me and I let her pretend".


----------



## Holdingontoit

Time for everyone to buy lottery tickets. We are living in a time of miracles and wonders. How do I know? Mrs Hold admitted something was her fault.

She was talking about her friend who cares for 2 adult disabled siblings. Mrs Hold said we are blessed. I said "yes, you could be stuck with someone far worse." She replied "you could be too, well, except that I am often mean to you." I told her not to worry, I signed up to be her firing range target. She said she is sorry, but she gets upset and I am the only one it is safe to take it out on. I said we were getting along so well this spring, and then we did something stupid, and we won't be doing that again so can we please go back to getting along. She said it wasn't the sex that set her off. I said "yes it was". She said "no it wasn't." I said "really? Then what was it?" She said "I decided to go off my AD meds cold turkey."

!?!?!?!?!!? Really? Did you tell the doctor who prescribes the AD meds. "No". Everyone knows you are supposed to taper off them." "Yes, well, I was annoyed with my eyes and I didn't want to have to be on AD meds for the rest of my life so I stopped. My naturopath gave me some herbs to take instead." ?!?!?!?!? "So you went off your AD meds without telling your doctor, or me, and then you get upset and bite my head off?" "Yeah, sorry."

I am glad she was open and honest with me. She must want to get along pretty badly if she was willing to admit that something was her fault.


----------



## minimalME

I admire you for being willing to stay in your marriage - honoring your commitment throughout and in spite of the suffering. There are not many people left like you.


----------



## Holdingontoit

minimalME said:


> I admire you for being willing to stay in your marriage - honoring your commitment throughout and in spite of the suffering. There are not many people left like you.


Thank goodness there aren't more like me. I am a self-hating lunatic doormat. As I always say: if you find yourself thinking and acting like me - run like heck in the other direction.


----------



## MEM2020

I’m not so sure the post below is accurate. Perhaps it was in the past. But - you seem to be finding your footing H. You really do. 




Holdingontoit said:


> Thank goodness there aren't more like me. I am a self-hating lunatic doormat. As I always say: if you find yourself thinking and acting like me - run like heck in the other direction.


----------



## Holdingontoit

@MEM2020: thanks for the support, but no. My finances are a mess. My job performance suffers. I am not even close to being in control over any aspect of my life. I wish I was finding my footing. I am not.
I am great at analyzing. I know what is happening. But I refuse to implement the rational solution. No kudos have been earned here.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Badsanta said:


> Hope your marriage is coming along as well. I think a lot of positive things happen in your marriage that you don't bother to report.


My marriage is exactly as I want it to be. No sex. Too good for her to leave, too bad for her to relax and feel confident that my devotion is authentic.

The quality of my marriage is unchangeable, as I invest substantial effort to prevent it from changing. We face all the same issues we did when we started marriage counselling 22 years ago. Well, to be honest, we have a couple more that we did not have then. We have worn grooves in each other than allow us to function together. Very painful process that has left us both too exhausted either to fight with any passion or to seek another partner with any enthusiasm. Which is precisely where I aimed us in 2005. The question back then was whether I could convince her to stay with me until age and declining health left her fewer choices and opportunities. No one is more surprised than me that I pulled this off.

At this point I have guarded optimism that we will stay together "until death do us part". So it is "coming along" in that we are both committed to its continuation. Whether that is positive or not depends on one's perspective and orientation. Many / most people would aspire to more than our marriage provides to either of us. But we are not "most people".


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti

minimalME said:


> I admire you for being willing to stay in your marriage - honoring your commitment throughout and in spite of the suffering. There are not many people left like you.


I used to admire such people. These days, I'm not so sure.


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## minimalME

Well, everyone is different. Circumstances are different.

Personally, I've never had one moment of regret about leaving, but I would be hard pressed to encourage others to divorce.




Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I used to admire such people. These days, I'm not so sure.


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## Holdingontoit

In case anyone thought I was wrong in my analysis of H2, she admitted she works pretty much as I imagined.

She said that it would be easier to be dominated sexually, because then she would not have to make any decisions and anything she did would not be her fault.
I replied that I was sorry that I am not the person who can do this for her. And that, based on her history, she found it so difficult to allow that to happen.
She said "oh, if I would allow anyone to do it, it would be you. I don't trust anyone in that way, but you are the person who is as close to being trustworthy as I have ever met. I would never allow anyone else to do that to me. So even if someone else would be more competent, you are the only one I want to be with."

Like I have said, she wants to be dominated. But the rapes inhibit her from allowing that. And I am too imcompetent for her to feel safe enough to try.
She often says I don't understand her. But I understand all too well.


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## Holdingontoit

So as to not hijack the other thread, I am posting my responses to these comments here.



jlg07 said:


> So, you just gave your wife a hall pass!!!!:surprise:


No, not at all. I described in detail what would happen if she faltered and I came to know. Nothing violent. No physical harm. Just an outcome that I knew she would hate. And that was totally in my power to create.

She has gone on 3 cruises with this friend, and they get hit on constantly. But every time a man talks to them, all she can hear is my voice in he head warning how this ends. And then she politely excuses herself from the conversation. Which of course was the point of my telling her the story in the first place. Mission accomplished.



ConanHub said:


> This is interesting to me because it is anethema to me and a polar opposite position I would take.
> There is an 800 lb. gorilla on steroids in me that straight up kills Interlopers and let's Mrs. C know that stupid behavior will not result in a happy ending.
> Mrs. C loves it and would never jeopardize her position as my mate by anything that could even be considered shifty behavior.
> If she went to comfort a divorced friend, I would only worry about her safety, never her integrity.
> She is mine boldly.


My wife knows I am weak and unrealiable. Part of why she finds me unattractive. So I am sure she would feel attraction to another man who seemed different.

But I think H2 likes her creature comforts and lifestyle. She took three 2 week long cruises this year. Several trips to the opposite coast to see our kids. She can work a part-time job so she has the flexibility to be away 8 or 10 or 12 weeks a year without losing her position. She does not want to jeopardize all that.

After lying to me about her sexual past and spending all my savings and lying to me about it, I do not rely on her integrity to keep me safe. I rely on her self-interest.


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## ConanHub

Holdingontoit said:


> So as to not hijack the other thread, I am posting my responses to these comments here.
> 
> 
> 
> No, not at all. I described in detail what would happen if she faltered and I came to know. Nothing violent. No physical harm. Just an outcome that I knew she would hate. And that was totally in my power to create.
> 
> She has gone on 3 cruises with this friend, and they get hit on constantly. But every time a man talks to them, all she can hear is my voice in he head warning how this ends. And then she politely excuses herself from the conversation. Which of course was the point of my telling her the story in the first place. Mission accomplished.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife knows I am weak and unrealiable. Part of why she finds me unattractive. So I am sure she would feel attraction to another man who seemed different.
> 
> But I think H2 likes her creature comforts and lifestyle. She took three 2 week long cruises this year. Several trips to the opposite coast to see our kids. She can work a part-time job so she has the flexibility to be away 8 or 10 or 12 weeks a year without losing her position. She does not want to jeopardize all that.
> 
> After lying to me about her sexual past and spending all my savings and lying to me about it, I do not rely on her integrity to keep me safe. I rely on her self-interest.


Glad it all works out for her. Can't say I care for her at all.

I'll have to imbibe something strong and catch up on your story.


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## Holdingontoit

ConanHub said:


> Glad it all works out for her. Can't say I care for her at all.
> 
> I'll have to imbibe something strong and catch up on your story.


Don't bother. It will leave a bad taste in your mouth. My thread is for men who aren't getting any sex, not for men who are.

My thread can be sumarized: if you aren't getting much or any sex from your wife, and you stay with her, then eventually you will come to hate yourself so much (for staying with her) that it will taint and infect every aspect of your life. That is why you need to give the various strategies mentioned in this forum one last try. If one of them works within 3 to 6 months, great, you got your sex life (and your pride) back. If not, then leave before your self-loathing reaches critical mass and destroys your life.


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## ConanHub

Holdingontoit said:


> Don't bother. It will leave a bad taste in your mouth. My thread is for men who aren't getting any sex, not for men who are.
> 
> My thread can be sumarized: if you aren't getting much or any sex from your wife, and you stay with her, then eventually you will come to hate yourself so much (for staying with her) that it will taint and infect every aspect of your life. That is why you need to give the various strategies mentioned in this forum one last try. If one of them works within 3 to 6 months, great, you got your sex life (and your pride) back. If not, then leave before your self-loathing reaches critical mass and destroys your life.


Can't disagree with your points.

I still might imbibe to catch up and see what I think.:smile2:


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## hubbyintrubby

Sadly, we encourage what we tolerate in life. There is no finer example on this forum than this very sad thread.


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## StillSearching

hubbyintrubby said:


> Sadly, we encourage what we tolerate in life. There is no finer example on this forum than this very sad thread.


What's worse is the suicide rates in men in this demographic are rising.....


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## Holdingontoit

StillSearching said:


> What's worse is the suicide rates in men in this demographic are rising.....


Don't worry, I will not commit suicide. I do not value myself enough to make that level of effort to help myself.

But you are correct that feelings of helplessness and despair often lead men to commit suicide. And there are few things that make a man feel more helpless and desperate than a wife who consistently refuses to have sex with him. Combine that with age discrimination in employment, and you have a recipe for an epidemic of suicides among older men.


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## Fozzy

Holdingontoit said:


> Don't worry, I will not commit suicide. I do not value myself enough to make that level of effort to help myself.
> 
> But you are correct that feelings of helplessness and despair often lead men to commit suicide. And there are few things that make a man feel more helpless and desperate than a wife who consistently refuses to have sex with him. Combine that with age discrimination in employment, and you have a recipe for an epidemic of suicides among older men.


You can't opt out of age discrimination. You CAN however opt out of a bad marriage.


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## Holdingontoit

At this point I have no intention of opting out. Too much work and I am far too lazy. I will always choose the path of least resistance. As I said very early i this thread, the part of me that wants out is securely bound and gagged in the deep recesses of my psyche. He will never get out. I do not allow myself to desire things that are difficult to obtain. I am the kind of person who cheats at solitaire. Don't pity me. Pity my wife.


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## Decorum

Holdingontoit said:


> At this point I have no intention of opting out. Too much work and I am far too lazy. I will always choose the path of least resistance. As I said very early i this thread, the part of me that wants out is securely bound and gagged in the deep recesses of my psyche. He will never get out. I do not allow myself to desire things that are difficult to obtain. I am the kind of person who cheats at solitaire. Don't pity me. Pity my wife.



This will be the most memorable 2019 TAM quote for me.


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