# Sexless Marriage - 17+ years and counting, IM, Wife Setting Up Date?



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

I am a Beta male. I do well, earn a good living, drive a nice car, have a nice house, wife drives a nice car, we have family money, and she works and earns a good salary from my father's company. Things are good. The kids are in school and doing well. And as an UNassertive man, I've let my wife slow sex down from the first year of all the time, to the next year of not as much, had our first kid, but I got lucky on that, was a half-court shot that went in (that's how few I was tossing at the basket if you know what I mean, and we wanted to have a child). After our first was ~4, I later found out she began an online "intimate friendship" (that looks from the writing like it never went anywhere real, but the hundreds of emails, the phone calls referenced, the ims referenced, it took up a lot of her time. At about that time I wound up getting her pregnant. We NEVER had sex (when I say never, I mean maybe oral once a month, sex every couple of months, from year 1-2 of the marriage through today), so I KNOW that was the night I knocked her up. I remember she freaked out that I put so much of myself inside her, and she ran into the bathroom. I thought this unusual, and got up to see what she was doing, she was trying to clean herself out with hand and toilet tissue. The memory of the conception of my second born! Wonderful. I later traced the dates back to her what at the time was hot and heavy writing (not specifically romantic) to this guy out of state she knew from childhood, even found the email where she told him to call to tell him the good news!). NO, she never told me about him. But she was writing emails at a clip of several a day most days, as was he. He even asked at one point if I hated him yet. She told him, NO, not me! They did wind up meeting up, but I choose to believe nothing happened because of a number of reasons. I at one point overheard a conversation she had with a bartender when she thought she had hung the phone up on me. She went on about what a piece of **** I was, and an idiot, etc. Told him never to get married. So I bugged her computer. FIRST NIGHT, I catch her online in an IM picking a gu up, and arranging a date with him. I mean she was ALL OVER IT. SHE WANTED IT BAD. It was VERY obvious.
I confronted her with it ~10 years ago, we went into counseling, and to be honest, I think she's been straight and narrow since. 
Here's the thing. We NEVER had/have sex. She is never in the mood. She'll offer a quick bj sometimes to get me out of there. She NEVER EVER EVER initiates anything, and she admits it, cries about it, says shes sorry, doesn't know what's wrong with her, etc etc. That she loves me, finds me attractive, I'm a NICE guy. Yada yada. But the only time I've seen her REALYL horny side come out beside her being drunk, is in the emails to those guys. And that's over a 17+ year marriage. When I say sexless, I mean less than once a month, oral maybe once a month or so)
I have tried REALLY REALLY hard. Everything from taking her away (she always has an excuse, I mean we have the money, but the kids, the dog, whatever). When I finally wear her down telling her I'm not getting what I want and need as a man, she cries apologist, promises to make it better, we have sex, really good sex, for one night. Then its like her job is over and it's like Tax season is finally over. I'm Peg Bundy and she's Al! I am NOT a bad looking guy. I have had women come onto me. I'm 46. I'm not in great shape, but I'm doing alright. I've got a good look. My wife, who is beautiful, is right now very overweight. I thought maybe then she'd not be interested in what else was out there and come to me for sex. But that hasn't happened either. She uses everything from truthful excuses that her legs hurt (she has had surgery) etc, to bull **** stuff. But it's the ore MEVER (nearly never) in 17 years (I'll say I can count on my fingers and toes), the number of times she's initiated any intimacy. Maybe double or triple that when it comes to sitting down with me and holding my hand or whatever.
She has friends. She's an outgoing person. If she wasn't so heavy, I'm sure if she was at a bar shed be able to pick up guys.
How do I find out what the **** it is she wants? Or do I just TELL her? Do I become ASSERTIVE (I'm not talking about hurting or do anything she wouldn't be ok with, but I'm talking about seriously forcing the issue). What are some of the things I need to do? Or is it too damn late for that? Kids are in HS and JHS.
What can I find out about her? What questions can I ask? What do you think can lead someone to a life like this.
Full disclosure, before she met me, she was a **** (I mean that in the way you think, but she only has a sense of the things I know, which is WAY more than she has any idea; yet I married her, I'm not going to cheat, and I want to be intimate and have sex damnit!). She lived with a friend of mine, had guys in and out of her life oten, lots of white drugs. But she's been 100% clean for 17 years. I would bet my life on that. 
I was a prude. I always try to be a people pleaser, and I was always taught to treat a lady like a lady. It doesn't seem to have worked, and now I'm two decades in looking for a solution another than divorce. I also have mental health issues which don't help, but I go to my Dr, take my Rxs, and before I got into bed with her after a longer than normal courtship, I let her know everything.
Any questions I'd be happy to answer. 
Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, I'd love that too. I need help, please!

-------------------------------------

Here's the IM session I caught her doing live 3+ years after she first started talking to the other guy states away... Tell ME, is it "NOTHING" like she says (only "embarrassing")... or is it an OBVIOUS INITIAL BOOTY CALL, especially given the conversations she told me she had with this J on the phone about me and our marriage and how bad it was, and that she felt that it was getting "weird." But when I hit her with all the solid evidence, she changed her tune to you don't have the right, and none of this NONE of this.... is cheating,. and I don't have the RIGHT to be angered by it. 

_All captialization and punctuation is exactly as was typed by the two parties, no emphasis added here._





*J Is:*


Guy My Hasntt Seen Or Talked To, Up Till A Few Weeks Ago(onFB). This FB IM, she admitted when I Caught Her With Other Stuff, That She Had Talked To Guy Here (J) On The Phone (was trying to cover up the other thing, and didn’t know I saw this), And That She Was Talking About Our Marital lssues Wih Him AndThis Made Her (her words “start to feel uncomfortable” BEFORE THIS TEXTING). So Keep That In Mind -He Alreay, Going Into This Has Spoken Via EMail And PhoneToHer, And Knows She Has At Least Said Our Marriage Was In Trouble, I Have The It On PersonalRecording


*E is:*


My Wife.. 3 years after she began the online relationship I put up earlier. This IM session was 8.5 years ago. She still has little to no interest in being intimate, going out with me, or having sex. Says her hormones changed, she’s lazy, a bunch of excuses. But BEFORE AND AFTER 2009, and this 2012... so she has those feelings, am I right or wrong? I know you picture an ugly, poor, weak man... but I’m in much better shape than she, I am just as good looking looks wise... I make good money, and bring in even more, we live on a lake with a boat, new cars, decent house, dog, and I am physically a strong person. But yes, I am a PLEASER, and I HAVE let her take my balls. I’m weak in that way, no need to make the jokes, I get it. I just wanted to get a final check of myself...


Is the below IM session what I believed it to be, or not?





Sexless Marriage - 17+ years and counting, IM, Wife...





When I confronted her with it....


She THEN claimed that this was just saying hi to an old friend, that yes she was embarrassed to have me see it, but I HAD NO RIGHT TO ASSUME ANYTHING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED, says what she wrote was not a “fairly” naked attempt at an intial “booty call.” He lived with his parents very close to my wifes mother. He had gotten divorced and moved back from out west. His “art” is basically copy and pasting to make posters for shows, and sketches that to me closely resembled the work of Napoleon Dynamite. For real. So to me, this was as obvious as could be, but I wasn’t even allowed to bring up any detail in marriage counseling, AND to get back in the house with my kids (who this is ALL about, not that I don’t love my wife, I WANT her to WANT ME. I am weak, that’s obvious, but what else can I do?). And is this not obvious below....








------==----------------------=----------------------------


J-: ah the strangeness of online dating


mywifE: ohhh boy ..MY FRIEND met her now husband on there!


J: i feel like rip van winkle


E: ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you'll do great


J: its all adventure


E: I can imagine...and you are a tough nut to crack!!! have you gone on any dates?


J: nope. just signed up last week. maybe tuesday


E: GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


*J: im just kind of torn as to what i want. i really have to get laid badly but i don't want to meet up with any nutzies. and on the other hand i want the "soul mate" type. I gal i can just have as the companion ...so theres a conflict


E: Its a tough call...get laid and stay out of a commit for now...this is fresh*


J: after my wife im gun shy


E: of course..thats why you should just have fun...go out and date..dont get heavy. well my friend...i hope it goes well!!!


*J: again...its just more adventure


E: life is an adventure...I can see you living that 100% * you might not have to look to far..your friend ONLINE WOMAN is captivated by you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


J: yeah well shes a nut


E: ha! she is sweet on you!!!


J: she was on my for a while


E: literally?


J: so I decided to test her boundaries/get rid of her...no just commenting constantly...so i said to her... so WOMANS NAME, when are we gonna ****?


E: *you are way to smart..I would never **** with you in that way!!! you would make minced meat of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


J: it had the effect of a big bomb being dropped with barely any casualties


E: the best kind! but...she is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


J: right. shes back


E: does she know you are "single"


J: she actually kicked me in the balls when I was 10


E: ha!


J: in the oradell public school yard.


E: do I know her?


J: probably not. LASTNAME was her name.


E: she is creepin on you...the comments on your pix were WEIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


J: she is attractive and i was semi kidding


E: nope...i dont know her


*J: yeah she's a dumb bell


E: arent the all, get used to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


J: so annoying. but she does somehow understand what im trying to get at aesthetically with my art


E: its hard being admired...take it for what it is...longing from a freak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! still good right?


J: she actually articulated it lucidly once. she didnt know what she was saying, but i did. i only want to be admired by people "better" than me


*E: why i would never mess with you… verbally*


J: everyone else...well i dont really care


*E: you are way to well spoken and can put it in writing far to quickly!!!


J: why dont we go out one night


E: I will set up a night when I am at my Moms and we can meet up...that would be great...i have to warn you...i just quit smoking after 25 years (gross) so I am squishy right now to say the least!!!! Weight Watchers is actually starting this week, so no fat jokes are allowed


J: ok, well I wont go out for a cigarette.  squishy's fine.  plus you're a familiar*


E: nope you can...just hold it in and blow it in my face!! I went to the beach this W/E with my 2 B/F's and for the 1st time ever was the non smoker...it ****ing sucks


J: you probably have a nervous thing. nervous oral fixation


E: nope...just ****ing love smoking!


J: i had it once too but it seems to have subsided


E: good..dont do it


J: ive never thought of it as a nicotine addiction. always more pyschological to me.


E: i want one now!!!


J: just stick your thumb in your mouth. haha. sorry to bring it up. wait you brought it up.


E: I wish it was that easy





they go on discussing his job, and how IT people and non-creative people suck (ME).





E: I must say Good Night.... until next time.


J: ok. have a better one


E: smile J


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

First, stop calling yourself a beta.

Second, divorce her. You can and should do better than this ridiculous woman.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

I just think you should initiate sex with her. Not aggressively but firmly. Don’t ask, don’t talk about it, show her you want her. 
It sounds like she will never be the type to initiate. You have to accept that. You need to take what you want, and if she refuses that’s fine. Try again tomorrow. If she keeps refusing, then the next time she refuses ask her what she expects you to do.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I also think you need to do some investigating -- you already know she has online EA's -- I bet she just learned to hide them better from you. There are MANY ways to hide discussions now -- inside games on her phone, other apps that disappear the messages, even FaceBook can do things in messenger like this.

Also, YOU need to look deep inside yourself and see what you are getting out of this relationship OTHER than room mates and business partners (which is what it comes down to with sharing expenses/etc.).

You say this: "Things are good " Yeah, sorry but what you painted in your post, things are NOT good and have not been for a LONG time.
You sound a bit co-dependent -- read "Co-dependent no more", start working on YOU, be with your kids more, and STOP bending over backwards for HER.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Your male ancestors that came before you, hunted wooly mammoths, fought off predators with sticks and stones, learned to make fire, built pyramids, crossed oceans, traveled by wagon and horse back across the frontier frought with plagues, storms, blizzards, rattlesnakes and hostile indians, waded ashore under the hail of gunfire and artillery on far away places like Iwo Jimo and Guadalcanal and parachuted behind enemy lines in the middle of the night in Normandy and then went on to build great cities and skyscapers...... and now here you are in 2020. 

No TV or video games for you tonight. You go to your room and think about that tonight.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> I just think you should initiate sex with her. Not aggressively but firmly. Don’t ask, don’t talk about it, show her you want her.
> It sounds like she will never be the type to initiate. You have to accept that. You need to take what you want, and if she refuses that’s fine. Try again tomorrow. If she keeps refusing, then the next time she refuses ask her what she expects you to do.


When he asks that question, she will say "I'm sorry" then put out for the night and revert back to script. This interplay between them is pretty settled.

If he pushes this issue then he's further into the territory of "negotiated desire." She simply doesn't desire him, he gets pity/duty sex once in a while. Putting more pressure on her to meet his needs simply increases the pity/duty sex and builds resentment within her.

She either has to find a tiny spark of desire within herself and focus on it, blow on it, build it up to a bigger flame of desire and actually want to have sex with her man or he has to do something about himself to create that desire within her.

Or cut his losses and move on.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Lots of red flags in your post like “beta” “nice guy” etc... If you actually want it from her (not sure why given the infidelity) you need to do a 180 on her.

Stop being “nice”.

It sounds like you’ve had one or more talks with her and she’s figured out she can make you go away for awhile with one encounter.

As difficult as it is you’re going to have to get yourself in order. Work on a self improvement plan, get into good shape. Get some new clothes, get a haircut. It’s tough with Covid but go out and do stuff without her and don’t ask. It she wants to be with new not nice confident you she needs to get with the program.

Note that for your part in this you need to be willing to walk away if she’s not going to make the changes she needs to make. If you’ve already stayed past the stuff in your post this will be the hardest part for you but as you said yourself you would find someone else that would have a sexual relationship with you.


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

nwnjtrm said:


> I am a Beta male. I do well, earn a good living, drive a nice car, have a nice house, wife drives a nice car, we have family money, and she works and earns a good salary from my father's company. Things are good. The kids are in school and doing well. And as an UNassertive man, I've let my wife slow sex down from the first year of all the time, to the next year of not as much, had our first kid, but I got lucky on that, was a half-court shot that went in (that's how few I was tossing at the basket if you know what I mean, and we wanted to have a child). After our first was ~4, I later found out she began an online "intimate friendship" (that looks from the writing like it never went anywhere real, but the hundreds of emails, the phone calls referenced, the ims referenced, it took up a lot of her time. At about that time I wound up getting her pregnant. We NEVER had sex (when I say never, I mean maybe oral once a month, sex every couple of months, from year 1-2 of the marriage through today), so I KNOW that was the night I knocked her up. I remember she freaked out that I put so much of myself inside her, and she ran into the bathroom. I thought this unusual, and got up to see what she was doing, she was trying to clean herself out with hand and toilet tissue. The memory of the conception of my second born! Wonderful. I later traced the dates back to her what at the time was hot and heavy writing (not specifically romantic) to this guy out of state she knew from childhood, even found the email where she told him to call to tell him the good news!). NO, she never told me about him. But she was writing emails at a clip of several a day most days, as was he. He even asked at one point if I hated him yet. She told him, NO, not me! They did wind up meeting up, but I choose to believe nothing happened because of a number of reasons. I at one point overheard a conversation she had with a bartender when she thought she had hung the phone up on me. She went on about what a piece of **** I was, and an idiot, etc. Told him never to get married. So I bugged her computer. FIRST NIGHT, I catch her online in an IM picking a gu up, and arranging a date with him. I mean she was ALL OVER IT. SHE WANTED IT BAD. It was VERY obvious.
> I confronted her with it ~10 years ago, we went into counseling, and to be honest, I think she's been straight and narrow since.
> Here's the thing. We NEVER had/have sex. She is never in the mood. She'll offer a quick bj sometimes to get me out of there. She NEVER EVER EVER initiates anything, and she admits it, cries about it, says shes sorry, doesn't know what's wrong with her, etc etc. That she loves me, finds me attractive, I'm a NICE guy. Yada yada. But the only time I've seen her REALYL horny side come out beside her being drunk, is in the emails to those guys. And that's over a 17+ year marriage. When I say sexless, I mean less than once a month, oral maybe once a month or so)
> I have tried REALLY REALLY hard. Everything from taking her away (she always has an excuse, I mean we have the money, but the kids, the dog, whatever). When I finally wear her down telling her I'm not getting what I want and need as a man, she cries apologist, promises to make it better, we have sex, really good sex, for one night. Then its like her job is over and it's like Tax season is finally over. I'm Peg Bundy and she's Al! I am NOT a bad looking guy. I have had women come onto me. I'm 46. I'm not in great shape, but I'm doing alright. I've got a good look. My wife, who is beautiful, is right now very overweight. I thought maybe then she'd not be interested in what else was out there and come to me for sex. But that hasn't happened either. She uses everything from truthful excuses that her legs hurt (she has had surgery) etc, to bull **** stuff. But it's the ore MEVER (nearly never) in 17 years (I'll say I can count on my fingers and toes), the number of times she's initiated any intimacy. Maybe double or triple that when it comes to sitting down with me and holding my hand or whatever.
> ...


What in holy hell are you doing with your life man. You get basically no sex, know your wife is out banging other guys and all you're doing is asking how do I get her to want me. 

Have you confronted her with the evidence you have??. If I were you I would send the kids out for the night. Prepare all the evidence. And arrange the living room with the pile of evidence on one side of the table, divorce papers on the other side and a bunch of suit cases sitting neatly arranged in the center of the room. I would start showing her the evidence just the most damning stuff but have a big pile under it, then hand her the divorce papers and just point at the suitcases and tell her to pack them and get the hell out of my house. I would tell her that you're going to a bar for a couple of hours and you want her out by the time you get back. If she is not done packing and out by then you will start throwing her clothes and toiletries in the street. All this done with zero emotion and no discussion, just a GTFO attitude.


----------



## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Lance Mannion said:


> When he asks that question, she will say "I'm sorry" then put out for the night and revert back to script. This interplay between them is pretty settled.
> 
> If he pushes this issue then he's further into the territory of "negotiated desire." She simply doesn't desire him, he gets pity/duty sex once in a while. Putting more pressure on her to meet his needs simply increases the pity/duty sex and builds resentment within her.
> 
> ...


There is nothing sexy about being to have sex.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> What in holy hell are you doing with your life man. You get basically no sex, know your wife is out banging other guys and all you're doing is asking how do I get her to want me.
> 
> Have you confronted her with the evidence you have??. If I were you I would send the kids out for the night. Prepare all the evidence. And arrange the living room with the pile of evidence on one side of the table, divorce papers on the other side and a bunch of suit cases sitting neatly arranged in the center of the room. I would start showing her the evidence just the most damning stuff but have a big pile under it, then hand her the divorce papers and just point at the suitcases and tell her to pack them and get the hell out of my house. I would tell her that you're going to a bar for a couple of hours and you want her out by the time you get back. If she is not done packing and out by then you will start throwing her clothes and toiletries in the street. All this done with zero emotion and no discussion, just a GTFO attitude.


This sounds like great mental masturbation. 

But if her name is on the lease/mortgage/deed, then he technically can’t throw her out or toss her stuff into the street. 

He’s a timid beta and nice guy. It would take all his gumption to indicate he is displeased let alone actually throw her out.


----------



## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> built pyramids


Unless his ancestors were Egyptian they probably weren't building pyramids.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

If an ostrich buries its head in the sand ..... it deserves to get eaten by the lion.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> If an ostrich buries its head in the sand ..... it deserves to get eaten by the lion.


I don't think there are any lions left in Egypt, and I don't think ostriches live there either.

That said, there are certainly pyramids in Egypt.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

nwnjtrm said:


> I am a Beta male. I do well, earn a good living, drive a nice car, have a nice house, wife drives a nice car, we have family money, and she works and earns a good salary from my father's company. Things are good. The kids are in school and doing well. And as an UNassertive man, I've let my wife slow sex down from the first year of all the time, to the next year of not as much, had our first kid, but I got lucky on that, was a half-court shot that went in (that's how few I was tossing at the basket if you know what I mean, and we wanted to have a child). After our first was ~4, I later found out she began an online "intimate friendship" (that looks from the writing like it never went anywhere real, but the hundreds of emails, the phone calls referenced, the ims referenced, it took up a lot of her time.
> 
> At about that time I wound up getting her pregnant. We NEVER had sex (when I say never, I mean maybe oral once a month, sex every couple of months, from year 1-2 of the marriage through today), so I KNOW that was the night I knocked her up. I remember she freaked out that I put so much of myself inside her, and she ran into the bathroom. I thought this unusual, and got up to see what she was doing, she was trying to clean herself out with hand and toilet tissue. The memory of the conception of my second born! Wonderful.
> 
> ...


Since you don't want to divorce, I say carry on as you are and embrace that choice.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

What she wants is not you. 

That is the most important data point you should consider in your decision. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

So if she didn't want to get pregnant why weren't you all using birth control? 
I mean having sex does lead to babies if you don't use birth control and I'm just thinking that's at least one reason she's not wanting to keep having sex with you. Not the main reason. So why weren't you using birth control, or really I mean why wasn't she?

Curiosity aside, I can't for the life of me imagine why she's staying or why you are letting her stay. As a woman I do know that you don't negotiate sex. It's not like it is with men. I'm surprised she's giving you BJ's. She's not into sex with you and she's not ever going to be. She must be staying for the kids or for money or because she's in general afraid of change because she's not staying because she's into you. if you are still attracting women and that's important to you and you're not too beta to go after them and date and build something, then that is what I would do.


----------



## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

Alcohol.
Birth control.
Some mood stabilizers, antidepressants, and other meds for mental health.
Some heart medications
Some blood pressure medications.
Some heartburn and indigestion medications.

I don't know all the different types of meds that affect a woman's libido but in the absence of there being something she's taking that affects her sexual desire, a woman has some kind of sexual desire. For a woman, that could manifest in a number of ways. If she doesn't want to have sex, then a good question is whether she gets sexual satisfaction out of the experience. It just makes sense to me that women want sex because it feels good. If it isn't satisfying, then she doesn't want to have sex with that person. There are women who live their married lives doing duty sex on a regular or maybe semi-regular basis. And there are some who avoid sex as much as they can for as long as they can.

Women also need a confident man, one who is skillful and knows what he's doing. Most women don't like feeling like someone's experiment. You don't sound very confident just in general. If your lack of confidence projects itself in the bedroom, then that is a very big turnoff.

Assuming one or both of these are your wife's problem, I believe every man can learn to make sex enjoyable and more satisfying for their wife. It just makes sense to do that if they want their wife to want to have sex with them.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

nwnjtrm said:


> I am a Beta male. I do well, earn a good living, drive a nice car, have a nice house, wife drives a nice car, we have family money, and she works and earns a good salary from my father's company. Things are good. The kids are in school and doing well. And as an UNassertive man, I've let my wife slow sex down from the first year of all the time, to the next year of not as much, had our first kid, but I got lucky on that, was a half-court shot that went in (that's how few I was tossing at the basket if you know what I mean, and we wanted to have a child). After our first was ~4, I later found out she began an online "intimate friendship" (that looks from the writing like it never went anywhere real, but the hundreds of emails, the phone calls referenced, the ims referenced, it took up a lot of her time. At about that time I wound up getting her pregnant. We NEVER had sex (when I say never, I mean maybe oral once a month, sex every couple of months, from year 1-2 of the marriage through today), so I KNOW that was the night I knocked her up. I remember she freaked out that I put so much of myself inside her, and she ran into the bathroom. I thought this unusual, and got up to see what she was doing, she was trying to clean herself out with hand and toilet tissue. The memory of the conception of my second born! Wonderful. I later traced the dates back to her what at the time was hot and heavy writing (not specifically romantic) to this guy out of state she knew from childhood, even found the email where she told him to call to tell him the good news!). NO, she never told me about him. But she was writing emails at a clip of several a day most days, as was he. He even asked at one point if I hated him yet. She told him, NO, not me! They did wind up meeting up, but I choose to believe nothing happened because of a number of reasons. I at one point overheard a conversation she had with a bartender when she thought she had hung the phone up on me. She went on about what a piece of **** I was, and an idiot, etc. Told him never to get married. So I bugged her computer. FIRST NIGHT, I catch her online in an IM picking a gu up, and arranging a date with him. I mean she was ALL OVER IT. SHE WANTED IT BAD. It was VERY obvious.
> I confronted her with it ~10 years ago, we went into counseling, and to be honest, I think she's been straight and narrow since.
> Here's the thing. We NEVER had/have sex. She is never in the mood. She'll offer a quick bj sometimes to get me out of there. She NEVER EVER EVER initiates anything, and she admits it, cries about it, says shes sorry, doesn't know what's wrong with her, etc etc. That she loves me, finds me attractive, I'm a NICE guy. Yada yada. But the only time I've seen her REALYL horny side come out beside her being drunk, is in the emails to those guys. And that's over a 17+ year marriage. When I say sexless, I mean less than once a month, oral maybe once a month or so)
> I have tried REALLY REALLY hard. Everything from taking her away (she always has an excuse, I mean we have the money, but the kids, the dog, whatever). When I finally wear her down telling her I'm not getting what I want and need as a man, she cries apologist, promises to make it better, we have sex, really good sex, for one night. Then its like her job is over and it's like Tax season is finally over. I'm Peg Bundy and she's Al! I am NOT a bad looking guy. I have had women come onto me. I'm 46. I'm not in great shape, but I'm doing alright. I've got a good look. My wife, who is beautiful, is right now very overweight. I thought maybe then she'd not be interested in what else was out there and come to me for sex. But that hasn't happened either. She uses everything from truthful excuses that her legs hurt (she has had surgery) etc, to bull **** stuff. But it's the ore MEVER (nearly never) in 17 years (I'll say I can count on my fingers and toes), the number of times she's initiated any intimacy. Maybe double or triple that when it comes to sitting down with me and holding my hand or whatever.
> ...


your wife is a ****. Your words.
She wants to have sex with basically anyone but you and having a second child with you apparently was repulsive to her.
You want a loving wife that looks forward to sex with you. It will never be her. She lost all desire for you the first time she had that affair, but her feelings for you were only on the downslide long before based on your description.

what do you want help with? You know on your heart your wife doesn’t love you. Divorce her and move on and be happy.
You will never be happy living with a woman that doesn’t love you. I hope this helps. You’ve wasted 17 years. Don’t waste the rest. Change is hard.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

nwnjtrm said:


> I am a Beta male.


That says it all. I'm sorry. I'm a beta, too. I know what it's like to be born in that temperament subset. "Beta" is a terrific blessing in some aspects of our lives, we can succeed well at careers and be the "go to guy" for customers. But it is a severe handicap in the sexual area.



nwnjtrm said:


> I do well, earn a good living, drive a nice car, have a nice house, wife drives a nice car, we have family money, and she works and earns a good salary from my father's company. Things are good.


Yes, those are the "qualities" women like your wife seek for a "husband" ..... and the ones they value mostly. They find, along the way, that they can get cheap thrills from alphas. Then, their SMV disappears with age. They have to resort to "online" alphas, where they can deceive them about the fact their tits are sagging.



Lance Mannion said:


> She simply doesn't desire him, he gets pity/duty sex once in a while.


This is the absolutely succinct description of your marriage, and the correct interpretation of your wife's "love" for you. She "loves" what you provide, but not you.



Evinrude58 said:


> You want a loving wife that looks forward to sex with you. It will never be her.


I have had three marriages and one SO relationship. Outside of those, I have had only very sporadic and seldom sex. While I still had self-esteem, I left the SO because of duty sex.
I found a nymphomaniac who became my first wife. I thought my prayers were answered  Turned out that she was no different. My SO didn't want me, but found other men attractive. My wife would have screwed anything that walked on two legs or four. And did.... she wanted to screw me, but after the "screwing" I got from her, I wanted to puke.

For me, it wasn't SO, but I found out over the next 48 years, that it wasn't going to be anyone else, either. That's the "beta" that you and I are cursed with.



Evinrude58 said:


> You’ve wasted 17 years. Don’t waste the rest. Change is hard.


I have found it impossible to "play" alpha for long periods. There were times, in my younger days, when I could "score" by putting on the alpha facade, ( especially women who were likely married to betas whom I had too many scruples to **** ).

@Evinrude58 is giving you very good advice. I tried this in the ways I could morally tolerate and was unsuccessful. All 3 of my marriages have been as @Lance Mannion describes.

You may find the way of change, I hope you do, and I hope you leave her self-centered a$$ far behind you.



StarFires said:


> I believe every man can learn to make sex enjoyable and more satisfying for their wife.


Yes, even betas can do this. But, you may find, as I have, that you simply will not be able to live up to the fantasy man in her head. My wife apologized to me about a month ago, saying it "wasn't fair" to me to endure the sexual drought. But, "because it's less unfair" just is not something which meets my needs...... it only confirms her non-attraction and her complete willingness to take my support with complete entitlement.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think you made a massive mistake by marrying her know what she was like, and she hasnt changed and nor will she it seems.


----------



## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

TJW said:


> I have found it impossible to "play" alpha for long periods. There were times, in my younger days, when I could "score" by putting on the alpha facade, ( especially women who were likely married to betas whom I had too many scruples to **** ).


Having been on this planet nearly 3/4 of a centrury, I wouldn't think that changing essential personality characteristics could be as simple as reading some books like NMMNG etc. Recall freshman psych 5 decades ago saying that our personalities are locked by age 7. Also seems we are prone to repeat the same bad choices in the mating game for some reason.

At least the OP recognizes that he is a beta. Too bad he can't cut his losses by divorcing the lying cheating *** he is married to and live life without. He can rent and not buy for the remainder of his time on this planet if necessary. Get a pet for companionship, they are faithful and love you without condition.


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

He's a beta because he's letting this horrible person treat him like crap. Change that and everything in his life will be better.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Clue: Beta doesn’t exist. Find a woman that likes you more than you like her. All aspects of the relationship are better.

the woman I loved the most, treated me the worst. I had the best ever sex with her, but it was for rare reasons. She was very selfish in sex, but it sure was fun giving her what she wanted all the time.

I have never had a bad physical relationship. I’ve been lucky I suppose. 
get divorced and try dating a woman you like a lot, but see how the sex is as long as she likes you more and is worried about YOU not being satisfied and leaving. Damn good stuff then.... you don’t have to be celibate. Lots of willing women out there.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Not to excuse the terrible things she's done but does she reach fulfillment/satisfaction when you're intimate? Can you say for certain that you know the signs that she is satisfied and that you help her reach that point? 

If alcohol is the only way to bring out the tiger in her why not bring home a bottle of wine three times per week? Heck, even once a week could make this marriage a little more normal and livable. You say she's on the "straight and narrow" for ten years- maybe you can forgive all that crap she's done?


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TJW said:


> *My wife apologized to me about a month ago, saying it "wasn't fair" to me to endure the sexual drought.* But, "because it's less unfair" just is not something which meets my needs...... it only confirms her non-attraction and her complete willingness to take my support with complete entitlement.


I'm sorry, but this just infuriates me! She APOLOGIZES...?? Just frickin' put-out already, if you know you are hurting your spouse!!!!

Her apology sounds phony and self-serving to me...you deserve better than that -- ANYONE does!!!


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

*


nwnjtrm said:



I am a Beta male.

Click to expand...

*LOL....no!!! Really?

I think you should go out to your wife's car and take your testicles back from where they've been hanging from her rearview mirror.

That's just for starters.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Her apology sounds phony and self-serving to me...


Yep.... me, too......


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I think you made a massive mistake by marrying her



@Diana7 has this right. She is not going to change. The only one you can change is you. Figure out what you are going to do, other than sex, for the rest of your life, which will replace your losses you SHOULD have been delivered by your wife.


----------



## Kathlene (Nov 14, 2020)

You need to divorce her. That's if you want sex. She doesn't see you as attractive and doesn't want to sleep with you. You are looking for some magic phrase that will make her want to sleep with you. I'll give you a little secret. Women are attracted to men that other women are attracted to. You just don't do it for her. If you worked on your physique and changed your wardrobe, you might attract other women. That would get your wife's attention. Outside of that, you are wasting your time with her.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Kathlene said:


> You need to divorce her. That's if you want sex. She doesn't see you as attractive and doesn't want to sleep with you. You are looking for some magic phrase that will make her want to sleep with you. *I'll give you a little secret. Women are attracted to men that other women are attracted to.* You just don't do it for her. If you worked on your physique and changed your wardrobe, you might attract other women. That would get your wife's attention. Outside of that, you are wasting your time with her.


Umm...NOPE, that's NOT true for many women.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Umm...NOPE, that's NOT true for many women.


Nor for me. I really dont bother about who is or isnt attracted to anyone I am with. I mean my husbands ex met another man and divorced him, I still snapped him up as I knew he was the one for me, and to this day I have never understood why she got rid of a man like him.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

Rus47 said:


> Recall freshman psych 5 decades ago saying that our personalities are locked by age 7. Also seems we are prone to repeat the same bad choices in the mating game for some reason.


I don't think a person can actually change his/her basic personality. Whether or not this has a genetic factor is an interesting topic. For me, the choices seem to be made on the basis of the underlying "locked" personality of the woman, because the audition sex was poured on, the marital sex avoided. 

It's like they knew what they had to do to "get" me.....


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> First, stop calling yourself a beta.
> 
> Second, divorce her. You can and should do better than this ridiculous woman.


I was trying to give the honest truth so I could get good answers and people wouldn't see it as me being Mr. Perfect, and her being evil. I think that statement came from a good place, and I appreciate it. Maybe beta is more of a loaded word then I should have chosen? I don't know too much about any of this stuff, and I've read/watched/listened to things about "Alpha" males. Seeing as they seemed opposite, and the opposite seemed referred to as beta. I didn't mean to say I have zero back bone, or if it had a loaded sexual meaning I'm unaware of. I just meant to say I'm not an Alpha by far, and I'm a "pleaser."
The whole point in my writing, and I do appreciate you taking the time to read and give your opinion, it's not an invalid one, is NOT to get divorced, at least not until the kids (15 and 10) are done with school. There's also a lot of money tied up, and it would be EXTREMELY untenable any other way. But truly, I want to LIVE WITH and see my kids every day. If I have to roll over till they are gone, I'm going to do it. I was just throwing another line out to see if there was anything.
Thanks again for taking the time.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> I just think you should initiate sex with her. Not aggressively but firmly. Don’t ask, don’t talk about it, show her you want her.
> It sounds like she will never be the type to initiate. You have to accept that. You need to take what you want, and if she refuses that’s fine. Try again tomorrow. If she keeps refusing, then the next time she refuses ask her what she expects you to do.


Been there, done that. Over and over. With her swearing shes sorry, all that. It's not that she at this point has recognized and apologized. But even though she says it'll be different, But it hasn't ever for more than a few weeks (and that was during the time I was kicked out of the house after confronting her and the guy she had been writing emails to (~300 over 2 years), phone calls and IMs (referenced in the emails). I wish it were that easy. Thanks for taking the time.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

jlg07 said:


> I also think you need to do some investigating -- you already know she has online EA's -- I bet she just learned to hide them better from you. There are MANY ways to hide discussions now -- inside games on her phone, other apps that disappear the messages, even FaceBook can do things in messenger like this.
> 
> Also, YOU need to look deep inside yourself and see what you are getting out of this relationship OTHER than room mates and business partners (which is what it comes down to with sharing expenses/etc.).
> 
> ...


Thank you.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> Your male ancestors that came before you, hunted wooly mammoths, fought off predators with sticks and stones, learned to make fire, built pyramids, crossed oceans, traveled by wagon and horse back across the frontier frought with plagues, storms, blizzards, rattlesnakes and hostile indians, waded ashore under the hail of gunfire and artillery on far away places like Iwo Jimo and Guadalcanal and parachuted behind enemy lines in the middle of the night in Normandy and then went on to build great cities and skyscapers...... and now here you are in 2020.
> 
> No TV or video games for you tonight. You go to your room and think about that tonight.


I don't play video games. I live 50 miles from my office in one of the most congested areas in the country. I get up at 4:30am (still hungover from Zyprexa), and am gone till ~6pm. I still pick up my son/daughter from sports and martial arts when I can make it. I make good money, we want for nothing and neither do our kids. We have a nice home on a Lake, a boat, new cars, she was making money when she left to have our first, but I was making more, and lived closer to work. She WANTED to be a stay at home mom. I'm sure its different to think you want it, and then have it. And that was with her spending 4-5 years with our first child at home. She was online trolling with at least two guys I have physical evidence of during that time. Claims she "needed something" and it ended so she didn't think (when I had the evidence and was giving her a chance to own up to it) about it like that. Like she had forgotten 300 emails, because in the previous year there had only been a couple. 
The lack of interest in sex, leads me to think maybe there IS something else going on. I'd be surprised though, she's very self-conscious and she's more than a touch over weight. I am not, I'm in very decent shape, and 4 years younger than she. I don't have wrinkles, or grey hair. I am a decently attractive man, and have had more than one chance in the hand to cheat on her, but even after she did, I did not.
Of course I didn't do those things, but I would venture to say if you were trying to slight me, the life, money, and power I help provide her with is more than the bottom 90%. So yeah, not a "manly man" but I do a complex, well paying job, that I could get pretty easily. So she's safe like that too. So much so, I heard my daughter parrot her and ask if she "was still going to quit" the job she works at my families business and gets an oversized salary for (it;s not a home business, its a big one; the factory, nationwide retail, and website; many of you would recognize if you wear what we make). 
I'm quick to admit my faults, but not providing and being a financial rock is not one of them. Neither are my looks, my height, or my ****. All are average to above.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

nwnjtrm said:


> I was trying to give the honest truth so I could get good answers and people wouldn't see it as me being Mr. Perfect, and her being evil. I think that statement came from a good place, and I appreciate it. Maybe beta is more of a loaded word then I should have chosen? I don't know too much about any of this stuff, and I've read/watched/listened to things about "Alpha" males. Seeing as they seemed opposite, and the opposite seemed referred to as beta. I didn't mean to say I have zero back bone, or if it had a loaded sexual meaning I'm unaware of. I just meant to say I'm not an Alpha by far, and I'm a "pleaser."
> The whole point in my writing, and I do appreciate you taking the time to read and give your opinion, it's not an invalid one, is NOT to get divorced, at least not until the kids (15 and 10) are done with school. There's also a lot of money tied up, and it would be EXTREMELY untenable any other way. But truly, I want to LIVE WITH and see my kids every day. If I have to roll over till they are gone, I'm going to do it. I was just throwing another line out to see if there was anything.
> Thanks again for taking the time.


I appreciate your expansion about your statement.

Your wife is simply ridiculous so without her getting serious mental help, I don't see any chance your situation improves.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Lance Mannion said:


> When he asks that question, she will say "I'm sorry" then put out for the night and revert back to script. This interplay between them is pretty settled.
> 
> If he pushes this issue then he's further into the territory of "negotiated desire." She simply doesn't desire him, he gets pity/duty sex once in a while. Putting more pressure on her to meet his needs simply increases the pity/duty sex and builds resentment within her.
> 
> ...


This was the most thoughtful and hopeful response I've read. And SPOT ON. You are absolutely right. We're 17 years in, and that pattern began preparing itself then (1.5-2 years after getting together). Maybe she DOESN'T want to find a spark, and that seems more and more like what this is. But if you were to offer a situation where I can help her do that within herself. As such, I don't care if it involves lying, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I have to trick her to open her eyes, do something that isn't the cycle you soI can break it. I want to do this because I truly find cheating disgusting and immoral... but I do other things that aren't all good (NOT anything illegal, well some weed), and I have mental health issues (always have, been medicated for more than half my life, and was 2 months out of an involuntary 2 week "hospital" stay.
Not illegal or cruel, but what on earth could I do (clandestine, since I now see that being straightforward as the world would want us to believe is NOT the real world and doesn't work, in fact the opposite) to maybe trick a spark into her. Or even something that I could do short of cheating?
I could go out with people at work. Thing is, I know one of the girls has a crush on me, and they've been trying to get me to come out with them. I made it known I'm a "good faithful man" through my friend here... but they say this particular (26 year old, with such a beautiful body and face, so young) girl has "daddy issues" and doesn't care I'm married. This is why NOW I'm writing this stuff. I have an offer to go out next week, and due to the holiday it would be easy to hide... but ever fiber of my being says not to.... except I know nothing I've thought or done in this realm has gotten me anywhere, so I thought I should see if there was any chance in any of your minds before I do something I WILL regret. But WILL enjoy, and quite possibly, give me the confidence to lay down the law at home, or if she found out, and she isn't seeing others and doesn't care about us anymore, she'll either be glad, or jealous. Either way, a different emotion than EH.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I appreciate your expansion about your statement.
> 
> Your wife is simply ridiculous so without her getting serious mental help, I don't see any chance your situation improves.


Thank you for your time and your honesty and advice. You're a good person. Happy Holidays


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Rus47 said:


> Having been on this planet nearly 3/4 of a centrury, I wouldn't think that changing essential personality characteristics could be as simple as reading some books like NMMNG etc. Recall freshman psych 5 decades ago saying that our personalities are locked by age 7. Also seems we are prone to repeat the same bad choices in the mating game for some reason.
> 
> At least the OP recognizes that he is a beta. Too bad he can't cut his losses by divorcing the lying cheating *** he is married to and live life without. He can rent and not buy for the remainder of his time on this planet if necessary. Get a pet for companionship, they are faithful and love you without condition.


Thank you for your input. I think you're right, if I didn't hear it in college, it just makes sense. And after 18 years, it's proven out in this scenario anyway. I could do those things, but I'd rather be a ****less man living at home with his children till they go off to college in a few years (than make my move), then divorce now. I don't want to miss my kids life, and to me, that's worth more than my dignity. BEH-TA.
At the end, hopefully she's still about 3 bills, and I'm still under 2. And then we see who is able to get a good looking girl/boy friend. BUT, being a stupid romantic, I remember to the early times, and the love we shared, and the great times, and the great times we've shared even with this cloud over it.... and I was trying to get some advice (since no matter what I will not leave till the kids do) to make things better or more bearable till then. Thanks again to all of you. And however it was that said I need to work on myself in all ways from pysch to working out, to clothes... you are 100% right. I've done that. Tightened myself up, got a new hair cut and look, went for the first time to a nice clothes store and (with my parents help) bought several thousand dollars worth of finely tailored Italian dress clothes, I didn't really want to, but with a promotion at work, I had to. It does give you a better feeling about yourself, and you can see people see you differently. Thanks for that advice.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> Clue: Beta doesn’t exist. Find a woman that likes you more than you like her. All aspects of the relationship are better.
> 
> the woman I loved the most, treated me the worst. I had the best ever sex with her, but it was for rare reasons. She was very selfish in sex, but it sure was fun giving her what she wanted all the time.
> 
> ...


That's a pretty simple yet cogent and persuasive argument to make. You hit the nail on the head, she has the power because she doesn't really care about it (she ALWAYS, way before me, because I know about her due to having friends in common for years, and I know what she got up to, a ****, and a coke head used sex (IMO) as a tool to control). And when I TRY, it just makes it more pathetic and worse.
Anyone have a program or something like that for people like me? I want to change. I'm just 46, shes gonna be 50 shortly. If I change myself in the right ways (suggestions of books, etc requested), I can 1) maybe have her get some kind of spark back 2) be ready when the kids leave to walk the **** out on her into the arms of another woman who I won't show the old beta side of myself to, and just a more confident version.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Umm...NOPE, that's NOT true for many women.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Kathlene said:


> You need to divorce her. That's if you want sex. She doesn't see you as attractive and doesn't want to sleep with you. You are looking for some magic phrase that will make her want to sleep with you. I'll give you a little secret. Women are attracted to men that other women are attracted to. You just don't do it for her. If you worked on your physique and changed your wardrobe, you might attract other women. That would get your wife's attention. Outside of that, you are wasting your time with her.


I think you are right, but I'm pretty damn good looks-wise, I wear nice designer clothes, I have a good look, I way ~100 lbs less than she does (I bought a sweatshirt for Christmas, and checked her sizing chart, she's at XXXXXL. I'm a 5'9 XL, not ripped, not fat at all. I will try, thank you for your advice. And though I'm sure different things do it for different women, feeling better about myself and being more attractive physically and otherwise can't hurt and only help things.... peace and thank


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

nwnjtrm said:


> Thank you.


By the way, what are EAs? She is computer ILLITERATE. I found the 300 emails in her Deleted Items (didn't know she needed to purge it,m and it went back YEARS). I use a program to watch her PC, and the first night I caught her on FB chatting and set up a date with a guy from HS. I can't do that anymore. And the times I have glanced, she's either learned, or doesn't. And I think doesn't, because unless she got much better than I believe she is capable, she doesn't delete her history or anything, I see everything else. Maybe she does it on another phone or something, but she's not that smart (shes not a dummy, I mean with computers; but who knows, maybe someone helped her).
What can I do short of putting spyware on her (MY/OUR) machine to keep an eye? Is there something at the Router level that I can do something like Websense or Blue Coat and watch ALL house web activity?
Thanks.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

TJW said:


> I don't think a person can actually change his/her basic personality. Whether or not this has a genetic factor is an interesting topic. For me, the choices seem to be made on the basis of the underlying "locked" personality of the woman, because the audition sex was poured on, the marital sex avoided.
> 
> It's like they knew what they had to do to "get" me.....


Spot on again. I'm sick to my stomach


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Kathlene said:


> You need to divorce her. That's if you want sex. She doesn't see you as attractive and doesn't want to sleep with you. You are looking for some magic phrase that will make her want to sleep with you. I'll give you a little secret. Women are attracted to men that other women are attracted to. You just don't do it for her. If you worked on your physique and changed your wardrobe, you might attract other women. That would get your wife's attention. Outside of that, you are wasting your time with her.


This is being done, and I dare say by year end, I'll be at my college weight, have an all new high end wardrobe, got myself a nice big black Lincoln, and am working on my own faults in my head... so that if it's not for her, it'll be for the next woman. It's just I'm in for at least 11 more years of this, and I wanted to (even if I had to trick or be forceful) f**k her during that time, because I wont cheat. Unless she somehow was ok with that.


----------



## 347055 (Nov 7, 2020)

nwnjtrm said:


> Thing is, I know one of the girls has a crush on me, and they've been trying to get me to come out with them. I made it known I'm a "good faithful man" through my friend here... but they say this particular (26 year old, with such a beautiful body and face, so young) girl has "daddy issues" and doesn't care I'm married


You must know this, but please avoid anything with anyone from where you work! The saying is don't get your meat where you get your bread. 

Many of these women are fishing for a big payday from a lawsuit, you will provide a perfect vehicle to end up in the poor house, and unemployed! You need to run not walk away from ANY female associated with your business, I mean avoid ANY contact anytime at work or otherwise or you will have way bigger problems besides a broken marriage! Then you will be in the same or worse financial shape than you would be if you divorced your wife and started dating (away from your work).


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

TJW said:


> @Diana7 has this right. She is not going to change. The only one you can change is you. Figure out what you are going to do, other than sex, for the rest of your life, which will replace your losses you SHOULD have been delivered by your wife.


Thank you. I'm giving it heavy thought, especially with all of the thoughtful people who took the time to read my plight and respond. I really do appreciate it. I want my kids not to have divorced parents, and I don't want to live anywhere but with them till they go off the school. So I HAVE to make the best of this. Everything later is different. But till 2031, I HAVE to make this work, and never having sex with a woman (other than the pity/duty sex that someone else who was right on, that is what she makes it feel like), mean I have to have it with her or nobody. And believe me, my eyes are open, if I ever catch her doing what she did... God help me there will be hell to pay (NO, I would never physically hurt the mother of my children, or any woman (except maybe a bull **** if my wife was on her... that's another thing, I've had people who know her pretty well, and spent time with her, have said they think she had a lot of lesbian qualities, but shes never acted on them). Maybe explains her fascination with "POWER" (and maybe explains the visit for our bull **** neighbor who came to our door one day when my wife had taken my car and hers was in the driveway, and when I came to the door she freaked out and practically ran away, before explaining who she was, and was VERY surprised my wife had told her about their friendship (a lesbian couple lives down the street, and I didn't mean anything negative if I used the wrong words, everyone is entitled to be themselves). Wonder if she is a lesbian deep down (my Aunt who happened to take the same mass transit as her for YEARS said that all the people would talk about her, she was known as "the loud, obnoxious, confused lesbian" to the riders. confused because she had new guys coming to pick her up often, a lesban because of her "Caaesar" (at the time, before she met me) haircut, and loud because she was probably still high on coke and hadn't been to bed, Lovely right? I ain't no angel, but that ain't me either. But she's the mother of my children and I have to live at least 11 more years there. HELP make it tolerable, and I know there's no magic.

A way to trick her into a spark, that was the best thing I've got so far....


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

TJW said:


> Yep.... me, too......


oh without a doubt. she has a history of it too.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

You should delete that before you’re banned.

don’t cheat on your wife. You will know deep inside what you’ve done and become a different person. I have a last suggestion. Ask her if she’s be willing to go to the dr and get checked for hormones. It’s obvious that’s not the problem or she wouldn’t be chasing different penises in the internet, and may make that worse. But a little testosterone and she might beg you for sex.

as to the 26 yr old/—. She sounds like she’s a predator that would sue you and get you fired.


----------



## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I don’t have the kids you have but when I realized how dissatisfied I was with the state of my relationship with my wife I was pretty much willing to walk away from 23 years if substantial changes were not made (on both sides).

If you’re not willing to go then you have no leverage until that point.

If she believes that you’re leaving or could leave then you can see if her behavior changes either way. She might be trying to keep you or she could be excited you suggested splitting. Only one way to find out.

I agree with the others that despite the temptation with the younger lady it’s unlikely to make you happy and will cause a wide variety of other problems. If you’re going to pursue that it should be done cleanly by breaking with your wife formally (divorce) before hand.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

nwnjtrm said:


> This is how school, church, and my parents taught me good men behave


This is correct, and amen. And, there is a guaranteed reward. Not only in another life, but in this one. I do not regret staying in my marriages, looking back. I can somewhat tolerate what I see when I look in the mirror because I did.

But, if I am candidly honest, sometimes I wish I had ****ed that hot little coworker with "daddy issues"....sorta like "the sins I didn't commit, but wish I had"....



nwnjtrm said:


> she's the mother of my children and I have to live at least 11 more years there. HELP make it tolerable, and I know there's no magic.


No magic, absolutely true. There's nothing you can really do about this. Your wife will not respond to any changes you make. Ask me. BTDT in younger days. I can't go anywhere now.

I can no longer go to a gym, hells bells, I can't walk for 50 yards without panting. I stay in my office and work. Takes my mind off my hormones a bit.



ccpowerslave said:


> If you’re not willing to go then you have no leverage until that point.


True. The marital partner who cares less about "it" has all the power. I can almost guarantee that your wife will not care even if you divorce her. The courts will take 40% of your income and half your assets and give it to her. As you are well-to-do, you won't even have power in the divorce. Your wife doesn't want you for anything EXCEPT that. And, she knows she'll get it.


----------



## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

nwnjtrm said:


> I could go out with people at work.


Yes you want to do the above as much as possible. When she asks about what your up to just say went out with friends. period. change the subject. keep her wondering. the haircut, clothes all good. Because you are changing and she'll see it. Get a gym membership..fake it till you make it. you don't have to be doing anything nefarious. Just as long as your breaking your predictable nice guy routine.

your wife has a major psychological issue with you. you know that. since you are going to stay so you dont get ravaged by the redistribution racket of divorce your objective is to break that wall she's put up.



nwnjtrm said:


> Full disclosure, before she met me, she was a **** (*I mean that in the way you think*, but she only has a sense of the *things I know*, which is WAY more than she has any idea


She was a **** (your words) with those other guys and became a nun with you. 

she sees you a certain way. A nice guy who cant even imaging some of the nasty **** she's done.. You're probably too nice. a well earned reputation. My guess is your bedroom activity (when it occurred) was sweat and romantic. This is what you are noted for. your MO, in her mind, is the predictable boring sex . Some women dont want that. they want something else. Her past could be the root of this psychological problem. Did you ever catch her banging other guys? Physically cheat? You married her anyway. Why? This must piss you off. I don't blame you. those other guys didnt provide her with safety and security and material goods she takes for granted. You married her partly because you expected that youd be getting some of what she was noted for.

here goes. this could be what she wants. Call her out on her past. You have nothing to lose. Why keep it quiet? tell you dont give a **** about her little prude routine anymore. you know the ****ing truth. you always did and you just want to be honest with her. ramp it up. tell her you like sluts. give her the porn sex when she has sex with you. It might break that wall she put up.. if it backfires so what. look at where you are now. it can't get any worse.

some Wives like this turn the opposite with their husbands. they dont want the husband to think they were a ****.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

happyhusband0005 said:


> What in holy hell are you doing with your life man. You get basically no sex, know your wife is out banging other guys and all you're doing is asking how do I get her to want me.
> 
> Have you confronted her with the evidence you have??. If I were you I would send the kids out for the night. Prepare all the evidence. And arrange the living room with the pile of evidence on one side of the table, divorce papers on the other side and a bunch of suit cases sitting neatly arranged in the center of the room. I would start showing her the evidence just the most damning stuff but have a big pile under it, then hand her the divorce papers and just point at the suitcases and tell her to pack them and get the hell out of my house. I would tell her that you're going to a bar for a couple of hours and you want her out by the time you get back. If she is not done packing and out by then you will start throwing her clothes and toiletries in the street. All this done with zero emotion and no discussion, just a GTFO attitude.


I can't miss my kids lives, they are more important to me than my masculinity, sex, or not knowing exactly what my wife does behind my back. HELL YES I've confronted her with it. I printed out the 300 emails, I printed out her IM sessions, I brought them to the marriage counselor who when asked why we were here, she gave the answer, he has mental problems, and we're trying to figure out how to live with it. I'm manic-depressive, but my whole life together with her I was medicated properly. After having to take my main med, I lost it, and right before that time is when she started to first online relationship (never overtly romantic, I have all the emails). She KICKED ME OUT OF THE HOUSE (with the kids in her lap). After 6 months I was back, and here (besides a couple of months of good regular sex) we are still. That was ~10 years ago. I kind of did almost exactly what you're saying, I had my bag packed, etc. She denied denied, then I pulled out the paperwork, freaked that I would look at her email, and kicked me out for 6 months (well for good that day, it turned out to be six months). I'm wasting my life, the romantic and sexual side of it to be with my kids, that's what I'm doing. 
Why am I still trying with her? I guess I'm a hopeless romantic who dreams that things could go back to 2004. But I'm also not totally unrealistic. I have a plan for when the kids are out of the house, a place to move, a plan. IF things don't get better. They probably won't, and I'm a *****, you're right. I was a Boy Scout, a Catholic, a real straight arrow. She was a **** and a coke head (when we met). Now I'm here. Dear God, I don't want to leave the kids, and I don't want (even the transgressions and the desrespect) to lose my place with my children in our home. So yeah, unless (and I have had some nice people give some good advice, thank you) something comes in as a miracle, when the kids are done with school, I am vapor.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> This sounds like great mental masturbation.
> 
> But if her name is on the lease/mortgage/deed, then he technically can’t throw her out or toss her stuff into the street.
> 
> He’s a timid beta and nice guy. It would take all his gumption to indicate he is displeased let alone actually throw her out.


You are right Oldshirt, but more than that, I can't lose being with the kids till they graduate. That's more important to me than anything. More important than all the names I'm being called, and believe me, I've said them to myself. I'm not stupid. Just a sucker with no self-esteem.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

manowar said:


> Yes you want to do the above as much as possible. When she asks about what your up to just say went out with friends. period. change the subject. keep her wondering. the haircut, clothes all good. Because you are changing and she'll see it. Get a gym membership..fake it till you make it. you don't have to be doing anything nefarious. Just as long as your breaking your predictable nice guy routine.
> 
> your wife has a major psychological issue with you. you know that. since you are going to stay so you dont get ravaged by the redistribution racket of divorce your objective is to break that wall she's put up.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to write like that. You are dead-on with the past thing... I had a friend who knew her well for a long time, and one of her friends was wasted one time and gave me the Cliff Notes to her last 10 years, so I know (not the little details, but after moving in, I found hand prints about the headboard (not hers), tons of condoms around, and some NASTY porn (she has all regular porn on Satellite TV, but this porn was like "freak" porn, hermaphrodites, a guy with two ****s, WEIRD ****, and that's the cover). I asked her about it and she said a boyfriend must have left it behind. The more I write, the more I realize just how hopeless it all is. Thanks for reading and interjecting everyone, but I think this goose may be cooked. Just go along to get along till the kids graduate. Then I move on. And my folks will still be alive, and she will be cut out of the will (just me and the kids, and I've talked to my father and his lawyer about this). So yeah, she'd get marital assets, but the huge chunk is not ours yet, and won't be till well after the kids are done with school, and divorce with her if things can't be saved. She has no right to an inheritance her ex-husband gets right? I'll happily share it all with the kids, but I've got plans, and now those plans feel like they should come into sharper focus, because this is never going to happen. Thanks anyways.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> Clue: Beta doesn’t exist. Find a woman that likes you more than you like her. All aspects of the relationship are better.
> 
> the woman I loved the most, treated me the worst. I had the best ever sex with her, but it was for rare reasons. She was very selfish in sex, but it sure was fun giving her what she wanted all the time.
> 
> ...


That would be nice. I have had more than one bird in the hand I could have cheated with and didn't. I have one sitting on the ledge right now. Which is another reason I'm thinking so hard about this... if it won't ever happen, MAYBE MAYBE I'd do this....


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

So you caught her cheating and she kicked YOU out? Damn dude.
You could benefit from some counseling probably. I really think we both know that the kids are an excuse for you to be indecisive. But it’s your life. 

you shouldn’t have gone for a crack ho for a wife. You definitely have some issues. Don’t we all? If you make good money and are a handsome guy, can I make a similar suggestion as before?

Get divorced. Play the field. Get your kids 50% of the time and have fun with them without your cheater tied around your neck.
You will find that you can date incredibly beautiful women...... you don’t have to marry them and show them your weakness.
You might consider never getting married again. It’s human nature to exploit weakness, and your next one is likely to do the same. Until you’re married, they’re on good behavior to an extent


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

manowar said:


> Yes you want to do the above as much as possible. When she asks about what your up to just say went out with friends. period. change the subject. keep her wondering. the haircut, clothes all good. Because you are changing and she'll see it. Get a gym membership..fake it till you make it. you don't have to be doing anything nefarious. Just as long as your breaking your predictable nice guy routine.
> 
> your wife has a major psychological issue with you. you know that. since you are going to stay so you dont get ravaged by the redistribution racket of divorce your objective is to break that wall she's put up.
> 
> ...


That was without a doubt tone of the most thoughtful responses I received. I will be thinking very hard about it. Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. And not make me feel like an ass, which I already feel like and already am.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> So you caught her cheating and she kicked YOU out? Damn dude.
> You could benefit from some counseling probably. I really think we both know that the kids are an excuse for you to be indecisive. But it’s your life.
> 
> you shouldn’t have gone for a crack ho for a wife. You definitely have some issues. Don’t we all? If you make good money and are a handsome guy, can I make a similar suggestion as before?
> ...


I was going to go for counseling... but drunk one night (oh, did I mention shes a MAJOR alcoholic, and drinks to excess EVERY day?)... but when discussing it she said that only weak people need counselors. I haven't gone back since. Maybe I do. Anyway, thanks for the advice and taking the time. Best to you all.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

She sounds wonderful. I see why you can’t let her go.....


----------



## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

You say you want to stay for the kids.... they will model this relationship and you are dooming them by not standing up for yourself in this.

Regarding money, if you have so much, you'll be fine in a divorce.

Regarding basically everything else you posted, you are wasting the one and only life you have.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

nwnjtrm said:


> I was going to go for counseling... but drunk one night (oh, did I mention shes a MAJOR alcoholic, and drinks to excess EVERY day?)... but when discussing it she said that only weak people need counselors. I haven't gone back since. Maybe I do. Anyway, thanks for the advice and taking the time. Best to you all.


Yeah, I GOT KICKED OUT! Amazing. And if you want to know maybe where this comes from... my father took my into their house, but my mother blamed me and wouldn't talk to me. I gave my father a 5 second glance at her picking up a guy for a date on IM. My mother wouldn't look at it, and said I was lying. She is mentally ill big time. She still (my mother) hasn't forgiven me from having to live in their house because I must have messed something up. Maybe I did. Does getting loud when you find 300 emails between your wife and a gy shes never told you about and has met in person make you the bad one? No more apology either, no admission (despite several I love yous, I miss yous, I want to see yous, I hate going to bed without talking to yous) of what it was. She stands to this day by the story it was no big deal and nothing ever happened. And the other one I caught and stopped before anything could happen. On that one, that was very obviously just her trying to get him to ask her out.. she said "nothing ever would have happened, so nothing I did was wrong." I am pasting the IM below. You tell me, what would you think. This is a guy from HS who she hasn't seen since, lived out of state and got divorced and moved back. After confronting her with this, she admitted (by accident) to telling me about talking to him on the phone about how out marriage was bad.... so it this someone lookingto go hand out... or is this a girl BEGGING FOR IT in a most embarrassing manner, who has EVERY INTENTION of meeting up and ****ing (like she suggested he do earlier in the convo, but you decide....

I didn't add anything to this except for bolding. ALLLL of those !!!!!!!!! my wife uses were hers, to the letter, I added and took away and changed NOTHING....

J (Guy): ah the strangeness of online dating

mywifE: ohhh boy ..MY FRIEND met her now husband on there!

J: i feel like rip van winkle

E: ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you'll do great

J: its all adventure

E: I can imagine...and you are a tough nut to crack!!! have you gone on any dates?

J: nope. just signed up last week. maybe tuesday

E: GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*J: im just kind of torn as to what i want. i really have to get laid badly but i don't want to meet up with any nutzies. and on the other hand i want the "soul mate" type. I gal i can just have as the companion ...so theres a conflict

E: Its a tough call...get laid and stay out of a commit for now...this is fresh*

J: after my wife im gun shy

E: of course..thats why you should just have fun...go out and date..dont get heavy. well my friend...i hope it goes well!!!

*J: again...its just more adventure

E: life is an adventure...I can see you living that 100% * you might not have to look to far..your friend Barbara is captivated by you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J: yeah well shes a nut

E: ha! she is sweet on you!!!

J: she was on my for a while

E: literally?

J: so I decided to test her boundaries/get rid of her...no just commenting constantly...so i said to her... so barabara, when are we gonna ****?

E: *you are way to smart..I would never **** with you in that way!!! you would make minced meat of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

J: it had the effect of a big bomb being dropped with barely any casualties

E: the best kind! but...she is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J: right. shes back

E: does she know you are "single"

J: she actually kicked me in the balls when I was 10

E: ha!

J: in the TOWN public school yard.

E: do I know her?

J: probably not. ro**rd was her name.

E: she is creepin on you...the comments on your pix were WEIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J: she is attractive and i was semi kidding

E: nope...i dont know her

*J: yeah she's a dumb bell

E: arent the all, get used to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

J: so annoying. but she does somehow understand what im trying to get at aesthetically with my art

E: its hard being admired...take it for what it is...longing from a freak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! still good right?

J: she actually articulated it lucidly once. she didnt know what she was saying, but i did. i only want to be admired by people "better" than me

*E: why i would never mess with you verbally*

J: everyone else...well i dont really care

*E: you are way to well spoken and can put it in writing far to quickly!!!

J: why dont we go out one night

E: I will set up a night when I am at my Moms and we can meet up...that would be great...i have to warn you...i just quit smoking after 25 years (gross) so I am squishy right now to say the least!!!! Weight Watchers is actually starting this week, so no fat jokes are allowed

J: ok, well I wont go out for a cigarette. squishy's fine. plus you're a familiar*

E: nope you can...just hold it in and blow it in my face!! I went to the beach this W/E with my 2 B/F's and for the 1st time ever was the non smoker...it ****ing sucks

J: you probably have a nervous thing. nervous oral fixation

E: nope...just ****ing love smoking!

J: i had it once too but it seems to have subsided

E: good..dont do it

J: ive never thought of it as a nicotine addiction. always more pyschological to me.

E: i want one now!!!

J: just stick your thumb in your mouth. haha. sorry to bring it up. wait you brought it up.

E: I wish it was that easy



they go on discussing his job, and how people with my technical job suck and non-creative people suck, and artists (I've seen his drawings, they look like Napoleon Dynamite)



E: I must say Good Night.... until next time.

J: ok. have a better one

E: smile J


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

Oh by the way.... this was what I caught her doing on FB the night I first put a tracker on her computer. She says "nothing ever would have happened, this means nothing..." You decide...
And the other one I caught and stopped before anything could happen. On that one, that was very obviously just her trying to get him to ask her out.. she said "nothing ever would have happened, so nothing I did was wrong." I am pasting the IM below. You tell me, what would you think. This is a guy from HS who she hasn't seen since, lived out of state and got divorced and moved back. After confronting her with this, she admitted (by accident) to telling me about talking to him on the phone about how out marriage was bad.... so it this someone lookingto go hand out... or is this a girl BEGGING FOR IT in a most embarrassing manner, who has EVERY INTENTION of meeting up and ****ing (like she suggested he do earlier in the convo, but you decide....

I didn't add anything to this except for bolding. ALLLL of those !!!!!!!!! my wife uses were hers, to the letter, I added and took away and changed NOTHING....

J (Guy): ah the strangeness of online dating

mywifE: ohhh boy ..MY FRIEND met her now husband on there!

J: i feel like rip van winkle

E: ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you'll do great

J: its all adventure

E: I can imagine...and you are a tough nut to crack!!! have you gone on any dates?

J: nope. just signed up last week. maybe tuesday

E: GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*J: im just kind of torn as to what i want. i really have to get laid badly but i don't want to meet up with any nutzies. and on the other hand i want the "soul mate" type. I gal i can just have as the companion ...so theres a conflict

E: Its a tough call...get laid and stay out of a commit for now...this is fresh*

J: after my wife im gun shy

E: of course..thats why you should just have fun...go out and date..dont get heavy. well my friend...i hope it goes well!!!

*J: again...its just more adventure

E: life is an adventure...I can see you living that 100% * you might not have to look to far..your friend Barbara is captivated by you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J: yeah well shes a nut

E: ha! she is sweet on you!!!

J: she was on my for a while

E: literally?

J: so I decided to test her boundaries/get rid of her...no just commenting constantly...so i said to her... so barabara, when are we gonna ****?

E: *you are way to smart..I would never **** with you in that way!!! you would make minced meat of me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

J: it had the effect of a big bomb being dropped with barely any casualties

E: the best kind! but...she is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J: right. shes back

E: does she know you are "single"

J: she actually kicked me in the balls when I was 10

E: ha!

J: in the TOWN public school yard.

E: do I know her?

J: probably not. ro**rd was her name.

E: she is creepin on you...the comments on your pix were WEIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

J: she is attractive and i was semi kidding

E: nope...i dont know her

*J: yeah she's a dumb bell

E: arent the all, get used to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

J: so annoying. but she does somehow understand what im trying to get at aesthetically with my art

E: its hard being admired...take it for what it is...longing from a freak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! still good right?

J: she actually articulated it lucidly once. she didnt know what she was saying, but i did. i only want to be admired by people "better" than me

*E: why i would never mess with you verbally*

J: everyone else...well i dont really care

*E: you are way to well spoken and can put it in writing far to quickly!!!

J: why dont we go out one night

E: I will set up a night when I am at my Moms and we can meet up...that would be great...i have to warn you...i just quit smoking after 25 years (gross) so I am squishy right now to say the least!!!! Weight Watchers is actually starting this week, so no fat jokes are allowed

J: ok, well I wont go out for a cigarette. squishy's fine. plus you're a familiar*

E: nope you can...just hold it in and blow it in my face!! I went to the beach this W/E with my 2 B/F's and for the 1st time ever was the non smoker...it ****ing sucks

J: you probably have a nervous thing. nervous oral fixation

E: nope...just ****ing love smoking!

J: i had it once too but it seems to have subsided

E: good..dont do it

J: ive never thought of it as a nicotine addiction. always more pyschological to me.

E: i want one now!!!

J: just stick your thumb in your mouth. haha. sorry to bring it up. wait you brought it up.

E: I wish it was that easy



they go on discussing his job, and how people with my technical job suck and non-creative people suck, and artists (I've seen his drawings, they look like Napoleon Dynamite)



E: I must say Good Night.... until next time.

J: ok. have a better one

E: smile J


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

You love THIS woman?


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

nwnjtrm said:


> But truly, I want to LIVE WITH and see my kids every day. If I have to roll over till they are gone, I'm going to do it. I was just throwing another line out to see if there was anything.
> Thanks again for taking the time.


Live with kids who, from your wife's perspective, are an unhappy accident. And possibly with the wrong father. 

I think you need to get your kids away from their mother. There is no way your kids can't see through what you're trying to hide, at least not the older one. And you do not want them growing up thinking your wife's behavior is OK. 

From the timeline you give, it would seem your wife she was unhappy about giving up her prior lifestyle and was doing what she could to get back to it. Maybe she felt shame for who she'd been and saw you as a way out of that lifestyle, maybe she told you how meeting you changed everything. What she didn't tell you was that you were just in the right place at the right time, a convenient person to use for her purpose.

And then, 10 years later, she just kind of gave up on her dreams and got fat & lazy and if she wasn't going to enjoy life, neither would you.

None of this could have happened without your help. You knew who she was going in. And if I recall correctly, she'd been around the park with friends of yours? That you accepted that may have led her to believe you didn't have strong boundaries. 

This is a real mess and the only options here are that either she decides to change or you leave. Just be clear that you're not breaking up a marriage. I don't think she ever felt married to you. You're an accidental father to her kids. Whatever you can do to clean things up now is likely going to reduce your kids reliance on therapy down the road. You owe it to yourself, and to them. h


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

nwnjtrm said:


> This was the most thoughtful and hopeful response I've read. And SPOT ON. You are absolutely right. We're 17 years in, and that pattern began preparing itself then (1.5-2 years after getting together). Maybe she DOESN'T want to find a spark, and that seems more and more like what this is. But if you were to offer a situation where I can help her do that within herself. As such, I don't care if it involves lying, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. If I have to trick her to open her eyes, do something that isn't the cycle you soI can break it. I want to do this because I truly find cheating disgusting and immoral... but I do other things that aren't all good (NOT anything illegal, well some weed), and I have mental health issues (always have, been medicated for more than half my life, and was 2 months out of an involuntary 2 week "hospital" stay.
> Not illegal or cruel, but what on earth could I do (clandestine, since I now see that being straightforward as the world would want us to believe is NOT the real world and doesn't work, in fact the opposite) to maybe trick a spark into her. Or even something that I could do short of cheating?
> I could go out with people at work. Thing is, I know one of the girls has a crush on me, and they've been trying to get me to come out with them. I made it known I'm a "good faithful man" through my friend here... but they say this particular (26 year old, with such a beautiful body and face, so young) girl has "daddy issues" and doesn't care I'm married. This is why NOW I'm writing this stuff. I have an offer to go out next week, and due to the holiday it would be easy to hide... but ever fiber of my being says not to.... except I know nothing I've thought or done in this realm has gotten me anywhere, so I thought I should see if there was any chance in any of your minds before I do something I WILL regret. But WILL enjoy, and quite possibly, give me the confidence to lay down the law at home, or if she found out, and she isn't seeing others and doesn't care about us anymore, she'll either be glad, or jealous. Either way, a different emotion than EH.


How badly do you want to build that spark within her? I mean really, how badly? How dedicated are you to reshaping the dynamic of your marriage? What you need to do is not play some weak hand with other women, resist that temptation. The best boundaries in marriage are the early warning radar boundaries, those that are detecting very early signs of dangerous behavior. They're the best because they have the least cost of enforcement. Just don't go out with this girl.

Instead embark on a long-range goal of transforming your body. Hit the gym and work your body hard. Start losing weight, start adding muscle, change your hairstyle, change your wardrobe, focus more on your mission in life and less on chasing your wife. If there is any hope of lighting a spark within her, it will have to come from within her and she will have to begin to chase you.

She will start to notice what you're doing and wonder WHY? Do not tell her "It is to win your heart." You are doing this for yourself, you have a vision of the man you want to be and you're putting a plan into action. She's going to wonder if you're planning on going after new, and younger, women. Let her hamster brain spin, it will do her some good. What often happens with infidelity is the wayward spouse always thinks that the betrayed is a safe harbor that they can return to, so after a split in the marriage, and the betrayed starts to get interest from others, the wayward is upset and surprised, the betrayed spouse BELONGS to the wayward and only the wayward. LOL. Your wife will not be happy at the thought that you might now start attracting the attention of other women.

You're killing two birds with one stone here. You're preparing yourself for an exit from a dysfunctional marriage and you'll be OK, in mind, body and spirit, if that happens, but this same preparation has a chance of getting your wife re-engaged.

I asked you how badly you wanted this, well this is a difficult plan, you're going to have a lot of solitary work ahead of you.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

nwnjtrm said:


> I was going to go for counseling... but drunk one night (oh, did I mention shes a MAJOR alcoholic, and drinks to excess EVERY day?)... but when discussing it she said that only weak people need counselors. I haven't gone back since. Maybe I do. Anyway, thanks for the advice and taking the time. Best to you all.


So this just keeps getting deeper here. You have NO HOPE if she is an alcoholic that won't TRY. YOU should not let her dictate if you go to a counselor. When she said only weak people need counselors, you should have said only weak people have to drink themselves silly to live with their guilt.

If YOU feel you would benefit from counseling, then do it.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

I just finished reading the thread. I'm changing my advice. Run! Run, Forrest, run! A broken home for the kids is actually a better situation than continuing to live with a broken family dynamic. With a divorce the kids get to see you 50% of the time and see a healthy dynamic in you and your future relationships with women.

Think of it this way. You're going out with a friend for some ice-cream sundaes. You decide to split one, so you order some vanilla ice cream with chocolate syrup. Your friend orders one with dog **** and butterscoth syrup. There's no damn way you're going to enjoy eating your sundae after it has dog **** mixed into it. Better to simply order two separate sundaes. Minimize the number of people who have to eat that dog ****.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

nwnjtrm said:


> Just a sucker with no self-esteem.


No, Sir. You are not a "sucker", and you have good self-esteem. You have a firm sense of "right" and "wrong", and your strength to follow "right" is functioning well in your decision-process.

If you "feel like an ass".... you have no cause whatsoever. Feel like the morally-upright, responsible father and husband you are being in spite of your wife's maltreatment.



jlg07 said:


> only weak people have to drink themselves silly to live with their guilt.


Amen. I understand that alcoholism is a disease. I get it..... but I also agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Strong people GET THE HELL UP and GET HELP.



Lance Mannion said:


> With a divorce the kids get to see you 50% of the time and see a healthy dynamic in you and your future relationships with women.


Make sure you have consulted an attorney who has verified this will happen before you "run"..... in my case, primary custody would have been awarded to her, and my kids would have seen healthy dynamic in me one time a week while they would see 6 days of **** carousel a week.

I agree that you have every good right to kick her a$$ to the curb. Just make sure that your RIGHT and NOBLE purpose for your kids will actually happen in the shoe leather.


----------



## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Yeah I should qualify my statement about alcoholics -- it IS a disease and NOT something easily controlled.
I DO NOT mean to minimize how difficult that addiction is AT ALL.
I was trying to show that the OP can be just as snarky back at her when she pulls nasty comments like that.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@nwnjtrm since you seem to revel in the drama of this, it looks like you and your wife are a perfect match. Given that I don't see why you shouldn't carry on with your wife and embrace the drama that you enjoy.


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

There was another guy that didn’t have sex with his wife for 18-20 years. She didn’t want to cheat on her affair partner.


----------



## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

nwnjtrm said:


> That's a pretty simple yet cogent and persuasive argument to make. You hit the nail on the head, she has the power because she doesn't really care about it (she ALWAYS, way before me, because I know about her due to having friends in common for years, and I know what she got up to, a ****, and a coke head used sex (IMO) as a tool to control). And when I TRY, it just makes it more pathetic and worse.
> Anyone have a program or something like that for people like me? I want to change. I'm just 46, shes gonna be 50 shortly. If I change myself in the right ways (suggestions of books, etc requested), I can 1) maybe have her get some kind of spark back 2) be ready when the kids leave to walk the **** out on her into the arms of another woman who I won't show the old beta side of myself to, and just a more confident version.


You just don’t get it, the time to fix this was 17 years ago. There is no fixing this.

You waited 17 years why worry about it now. Stick a fork in your sex life, it was done 17 years ago.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ABHale said:


> You just don’t get it, the time to fix this was 17 years ago. There is no fixing this.
> 
> You waited 17 years why worry about it now. Stick a fork in your sex life, it was done 17 years ago.


Yeah c’mon people, a fat, cheating drunkard that hasn’t hit it with him in almost two decades - why is anyone even mentioning a sentence about reconciliation into this thread??? 

Let’s just dig up a corpse out the cemetery that’s been dead and buried for 17 years and do CPR,, it will have about the same effectiveness.


----------



## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> Get divorced. Play the field. Get your kids 50% of the time and have fun with them without your cheater tied around your neck.
> You will find that you can date incredibly beautiful women...... you don’t have to marry them and show them your weakness.
> You might consider never getting married again. It’s human nature to exploit weakness, and your next one is likely to do the same. Until you’re married, they’re on good behavior to an extent


this is the way to go. great advice. Getting married again is the classic nice guy move. A high percentage of second marriages end in divorce. this is the problem for the nice guy. . they are playing the dating/marriage game but dont know the rules. Nice guys live in an illusion (a matrix) presented to them by the culture, religion, education, and their upbringing. Upbringing because their parents played by the old rules. the new rules were in play by the 1980s. Yet the nice guy is playing like its the 1950s. the context for these guys is something like the romantic comedy or the babble fed to them by the church, parents, even blue pilled friends. Everything you need to know is widely available. So educate yourself. 

First get redpilled. Understand female nature (this is the starting point and key to your deprograming). Read the Predatory Female, by rev. lawrence shannon. the author was an airline pilot who warned men about the falsehoods of the illusion. this book is a real eye opener. you'll never view marriage the same. some of the stuff he writes about will surely apply to your situation that you weren't even aware of. 



nwnjtrm said:


> she will be cut out of the will


Well done. I think there is a time limit re the wife's entitlement to an inheritance. Something is telling me that an inheritence can be considered a marital asset. So do your due diligence. 

dont be embarrassed about your situation. we have all ****ed up one way or another to varying degrees. It took courage to spill your guts. you are waking up and thats what matters. its about you now not her. You can't ask/beg/plead for sex. this makes it much worse where she loses respect for you. You have to not give a ****. thats why when you are confident in a few months and understand the lie you've been fed from birth (the blue pill, female nature and the rest of it) I think you ought to confront her on her past. Call her out. She sure as hell likes your money and the cars. Another lie, the woman is the prize. How many times have your heard that one. Bet you believed it. I did back in my 20s. You are the ****ing prize. So learn the basic red pill principles. Alpha seed, Beta need. Woman don't love us the way we love them. Why woman marry their second or third choice. Hypergamy. SMV. This is basic stuff which will set you on the right path. Once you are made aware you can't be played for a chump.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

manowar said:


> Understand female nature (this is the starting point and key to your deprograming). Read the Predatory Female, by rev. lawrence shannon. the author was an airline pilot who warned men about the falsehoods of the illusion. this book is a real eye opener. you'll never view marriage the same. some of the stuff he writes about will surely apply to your situation that you weren't even aware of.


This isn't really fair, I don't think...we aren't all "predatory".
The OP made a bad choice for a partner, but that doesn't mean all women are a poor choice...


----------



## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> This isn't really fair, I don't think...we aren't all "predatory".
> The OP made a bad choice for a partner, but that doesn't mean all women are a poor choice...



I agree with you.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

No, not all women are like that.

But for a guy that spent 17 years of sexless marriage with a fat, alcoholic cheater, he would be best served by not considering any kind of committed relationship, marriage or any kind of legally or financially intertwined relationship again.

His picker is obviously not working. It would be a good policy going forward for him to keep everything strictly casual and nonbinding


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> This isn't really fair, I don't think...we aren't all "predatory".
> The OP made a bad choice for a partner, but that doesn't mean all women are a poor choice...


Some women are freaking fantastic. Finding them is the problem.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Lance Mannion said:


> Some women are freaking fantastic. Finding them is the problem.


It's not that hard, just turn up and smile. Then plenty of freaking fantastic women, can't help but be drawn in.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> Not to excuse the terrible things she's done but does she reach fulfillment/satisfaction when you're intimate? Can you say for certain that you know the signs that she is satisfied and that you help her reach that point?
> 
> If alcohol is the only way to bring out the tiger in her why not bring home a bottle of wine three times per week? Heck, even once a week could make this marriage a little more normal and livable. You say she's on the "straight and narrow" for ten years- maybe you can forgive all that crap she's done?





Personal said:


> Since you don't want to divorce, I say carry on as you are and embrace that choice.


You know what, that's where I'm at. 11 more years. I don't hate her, I do love her, just not so much in love with her. I will be good, I will go on YouP*rn, and give my kids a good environment as much as possible. Since I'm comfortable knowing it isn't coming back, and I'm kinda "doing time," I can live with that. Its sad, but I can. That said, I hope that the woman who is in there comes back out, or I figure out exactly what I might be doing that makes things worse.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

CatholicDad said:


> Not to excuse the terrible things she's done but does she reach fulfillment/satisfaction when you're intimate? Can you say for certain that you know the signs that she is satisfied and that you help her reach that point?
> 
> If alcohol is the only way to bring out the tiger in her why not bring home a bottle of wine three times per week? Heck, even once a week could make this marriage a little more normal and livable. You say she's on the "straight and narrow" for ten years- maybe you can forgive all that crap she's done?


Good questions. Yes, absolutely. But it's rare for it to be from strictly interc**rse. But the other stuff is fun too, and yes, I can say I know she's pyshcially turned on and then satisfied at least her body parts are for sure. I know right, it seems so easy. That's all I need from her, just to want to sometimes, to initiate sometimes, but far more important, to have her hold me for protection, hold my hand, show me warmth. She isn't really like that and I am. I don't demand it or force it (maybe I should), and she's apologized for not being "touchy feely" (and I can see her other family members aren't like that either, so it's not a game shes running on me). I MUST get through at least 10 more years, and I'd best love to do it with the woman I fell in love with. Will settle for it with the woman I'm with (as long as there is no infidelity), and would only leave if she sues for divorce and forces my hand. OR the kids are grown and leave.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> Some women are freaking fantastic. Finding them is the problem.


No it isn't...it's just that if they don't look like a Victoria's Secret model, many guys won't give them a second look.


----------



## 347483 (Dec 14, 2020)

manowar said:


> this is the way to go. great advice. Getting married again is the classic nice guy move. A high percentage of second marriages end in divorce. this is the problem for the nice guy. . they are playing the dating/marriage game but dont know the rules. Nice guys live in an illusion (a matrix) presented to them by the culture, religion, education, and their upbringing. Upbringing because their parents played by the old rules. the new rules were in play by the 1980s. Yet the nice guy is playing like its the 1950s. the context for these guys is something like the romantic comedy or the babble fed to them by the church, parents, even blue pilled friends. Everything you need to know is widely available. So educate yourself.
> 
> First get redpilled. Understand female nature (this is the starting point and key to your deprograming). Read the Predatory Female, by rev. lawrence shannon. the author was an airline pilot who warned men about the falsehoods of the illusion. this book is a real eye opener. you'll never view marriage the same. some of the stuff he writes about will surely apply to your situation that you weren't even aware of.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice, I appreciate it, I really do


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> No it isn't...it's just that if they don't look like a Victoria's Secret model, many guys won't give them a second look.


Freaking Fantastic ≠ Adequate


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Personal said:


> It's not that hard, just turn up and smile. Then plenty of freaking fantastic women, can't help but be drawn in.


That's a pretty damn low bar. These women are snapped up quickly, off the market. A woman who is freaking fantastic can't stay single and playing the field because that act then disqualifies her from being freaking fantastic. Some women get put back into circulation because they are widowed and childless.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Fantastic isn’t easy to find at any age, place, etc.
Some people are good actors. Even a ultra handsome, fun, wealthy person would not find it easy to find fantastic.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Evinrude58 said:


> Fantastic isn’t easy to find at any age, place, etc.
> Some people are good actors. Even a ultra handsome, fun, wealthy person would not find it easy to find fantastic.


Beware the false positive!


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

nwnjtrm said:


> Good questions. Yes, absolutely. But it's rare for it to be from strictly interc**rse. But the other stuff is fun too, and yes, I can say I know she's pyshcially turned on and then satisfied at least her body parts are for sure. I know right, it seems so easy. That's all I need from her, just to want to sometimes, to initiate sometimes, but far more important, to have her hold me for protection, hold my hand, show me warmth. She isn't really like that and I am. I don't demand it or force it (maybe I should), and she's apologized for not being "touchy feely" (and I can see her other family members aren't like that either, so it's not a game shes running on me). I MUST get through at least 10 more years, and I'd best love to do it with the woman I fell in love with. Will settle for it with the woman I'm with (as long as there is no infidelity), and would only leave if she sues for divorce and forces my hand. OR the kids are grown and leave.


If you can be happy then I say go for it. Enjoy your kids find happiness however you can. 

My fear for you is this marriage is slowly sucking the life and manhood from you. By the time you're ready to move on timeline wise there may be nothing left of you to offer another woman, leaving you with a life alone or trapped in a loveless, sexless life sentence. Our lives are changed by even the small choices we make everyday. It seems to me you're making the choice you know the outcome of (even though you know the result is mostly downside) rather than the one where the outcome is unknown (But has the opportunity for upside). As long as you're aware of the risks to long term happiness then I won't fault you for going the route that seems the safest.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Feed her, and feed her some more.
Bring home every high calorie food she loves.
Feed her until she explodes.

Ugh, I don't believe I wrote this.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

SunCMars said:


> Feed her, and feed her some more.
> Bring home every high calorie food she loves.
> Feed her until she explodes.
> *
> Ugh, I don't believe I wrote this.*


I don't believe it either!!! 

What would the Red Queen say...


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Evinrude58 said:


> Fantastic isn’t easy to find at any age, place, etc.
> Some people are good actors. Even a ultra handsome, fun, wealthy person would not find it easy to find fantastic.


I think also, it's because "fantastic" depends on the person searching...not everyone values the same qualities.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I think also, it's because "fantastic" depends on the person searching...not everyone values the same qualities.


I think a lot of folks have fantastic waiting just past the veil of effort.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I think a lot of folks have fantastic waiting just past the veil of effort.


Then where do folks find extraordinary marriages?

Lot's of people deal with alcoholism, selfishness, low self esteem, depression, anxiety, laziness, stupidity, and the list of life's frustrations goes on. Under a bell curve distribution some marriages are total nightmares (we see some of those here) and some must be very sexually and emotionally and psychologically and spiritually rewarding, and that leaves most marriages somewhere in between.

Everyone being able to have a fantastic marriage is kind of like giving every kid a participation trophy.


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Lance Mannion said:


> Then where do folks find extraordinary marriages?
> 
> Lot's of people deal with alcoholism, selfishness, low self esteem, depression, anxiety, laziness, stupidity, and the list of life's frustrations goes on. Under a bell curve distribution some marriages are total nightmares (we see some of those here) and some must be very sexually and emotionally and psychologically and spiritually rewarding, and that leaves most marriages somewhere in between.
> 
> Everyone being able to have a fantastic marriage is kind of like giving every kid a participation trophy.


Sometimes I think you are deliberately obtuse...


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Sometimes I think you are deliberately obtuse...


That is my job!


----------



## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

SunCMars said:


> That is my job!


Lol!!! And you EXCEL at it!!! 💜


----------



## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I didn't read all the replies, but I often scratch my head when I read this and many other posts....Sex is never something you should have to prod, coerce, counsel, whatever,,,Barring some medical condition(even there I know a guy who claims that he and his wife still have great sex, despite the fact that she has MS and is pretty much handicapped)., then it should come easily, willingly, and naturally..

If it isn't would it even be worth it at all? One man's opinion? .....Nope..

It sounds like you never made her wet, you never excited her, she never looked at you as you walked by and craved you in a sexual manner...Women can and do often marry guys because of lifestyle, stability, security, etc...Whether that is the case here, I really can't say for sure, but it does sound like it...Then the transgressions over the years are all the proof you really need..She has a desire, just not for you...Sorry to say that, but I am sure you already know this...

At this point whatever crumbs she gives you is nothing more than her trying to keep you off her back and allow her to trudge on,...If she has gotten really heavy, then she likely gave up trying to attract other men and now will be content to settle in this arrangement of convenience...

The clock is ticking for you, bud,,,Pretty soon it may not matter and you won't care one way or the other...So there is only a few options left...Leave her and see what's out there, do what she did and get yours on the side, or just stay in your situation and deal with it...Like I said, quite possibly your libido will tank, and you wont care one way or the other....I'm not advocating what you should do, just laying out the cards,,,,,It's a good bet(like more than 98% chance) that she will never be what you want her to be...

Good luck..


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

This whole "She's just not into you" thing comes up so often, and always with the idea that, if that's the case, well, she's dead Jim. Nothing you can do about it, time to move on.

I'm guessing there are people who have either re-lit a past flame or started a fire that didn't exist before. It's got to be up against impossible odds, sure, but challenge is what gives reason to live for some people. I think sometimes we forget that, when we're so easily dismissive of relationships like the one in this thread. Well, not this one, because it seems he HAS given up.


----------



## Leila355 (Dec 19, 2020)

nwnjtrm said:


> I am a Beta male. I do well, earn a good living, drive a nice car, have a nice house, wife drives a nice car, we have family money, and she works and earns a good salary from my father's company. Things are good. The kids are in school and doing well. And as an UNassertive man, I've let my wife slow sex down from the first year of all the time, to the next year of not as much, had our first kid, but I got lucky on that, was a half-court shot that went in (that's how few I was tossing at the basket if you know what I mean, and we wanted to have a child). After our first was ~4, I later found out she began an online "intimate friendship" (that looks from the writing like it never went anywhere real, but the hundreds of emails, the phone calls referenced, the ims referenced, it took up a lot of her time. At about that time I wound up getting her pregnant. We NEVER had sex (when I say never, I mean maybe oral once a month, sex every couple of months, from year 1-2 of the marriage through today), so I KNOW that was the night I knocked her up. I remember she freaked out that I put so much of myself inside her, and she ran into the bathroom. I thought this unusual, and got up to see what she was doing, she was trying to clean herself out with hand and toilet tissue. The memory of the conception of my second born! Wonderful. I later traced the dates back to her what at the time was hot and heavy writing (not specifically romantic) to this guy out of state she knew from childhood, even found the email where she told him to call to tell him the good news!). NO, she never told me about him. But she was writing emails at a clip of several a day most days, as was he. He even asked at one point if I hated him yet. She told him, NO, not me! They did wind up meeting up, but I choose to believe nothing happened because of a number of reasons. I at one point overheard a conversation she had with a bartender when she thought she had hung the phone up on me. She went on about what a piece of **** I was, and an idiot, etc. Told him never to get married. So I bugged her computer. FIRST NIGHT, I catch her online in an IM picking a gu up, and arranging a date with him. I mean she was ALL OVER IT. SHE WANTED IT BAD. It was VERY obvious.
> I confronted her with it ~10 years ago, we went into counseling, and to be honest, I think she's been straight and narrow since.
> Here's the thing. We NEVER had/have sex. She is never in the mood. She'll offer a quick bj sometimes to get me out of there. She NEVER EVER EVER initiates anything, and she admits it, cries about it, says shes sorry, doesn't know what's wrong with her, etc etc. That she loves me, finds me attractive, I'm a NICE guy. Yada yada. But the only time I've seen her REALYL horny side come out beside her being drunk, is in the emails to those guys. And that's over a 17+ year marriage. When I say sexless, I mean less than once a month, oral maybe once a month or so)
> I have tried REALLY REALLY hard. Everything from taking her away (she always has an excuse, I mean we have the money, but the kids, the dog, whatever). When I finally wear her down telling her I'm not getting what I want and need as a man, she cries apologist, promises to make it better, we have sex, really good sex, for one night. Then its like her job is over and it's like Tax season is finally over. I'm Peg Bundy and she's Al! I am NOT a bad looking guy. I have had women come onto me. I'm 46. I'm not in great shape, but I'm doing alright. I've got a good look. My wife, who is beautiful, is right now very overweight. I thought maybe then she'd not be interested in what else was out there and come to me for sex. But that hasn't happened either. She uses everything from truthful excuses that her legs hurt (she has had surgery) etc, to bull **** stuff. But it's the ore MEVER (nearly never) in 17 years (I'll say I can count on my fingers and toes), the number of times she's initiated any intimacy. Maybe double or triple that when it comes to sitting down with me and holding my hand or whatever.
> ...


Honestly, I am a woman, it sounds like she is not sexually attracted to you and is staying in the marriage for other reasons.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Leila355 said:


> Honestly, I am a woman, it sounds like she is not sexually attracted to you and is staying in the marriage for other reasons.


Maybe. But I think it possible she has no idea how unhappy her husband is with things. She may actually believe she's got a great marriage. My wife has been like that and, until it's make clear you're willing, not just willing, but going to change everything, leave the marriage, if your partner doesn't see the light... nothing changes. 

This has been going on for so long, what reason is there for her to think anything might need to change? He seems perfectly content to wait out perhaps the best years of his life, and then re-enter the relationship market at a time he has less going for him.


----------



## Leila355 (Dec 19, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Maybe. But I think it possible she has no idea how unhappy her husband is with things. She may actually believe she's got a great marriage. My wife has been like that and, until it's make clear you're willing, not just willing, but going to change everything, leave the marriage, if your partner doesn't see the light... nothing changes.
> 
> This has been going on for so long, what reason is there for her to think anything might need to change? He seems perfectly content to wait out perhaps the best years of his life, and then re-enter the relationship market at a time he has less going for him.


You don’t cheat on a marriage because your happy.


----------



## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Leila355 said:


> You don’t cheat on a marriage because your happy.


Maybe you don't cheat _because _you're happy, but I think there are many people happy with their marriages who cheat anyway. There's a tunnel vision some either acquire or are born with that allows them to see a relationship as good, happy even, perhaps wonderful... when in fact it's far from.


----------



## Lance Mannion (Nov 24, 2020)

Casual Observer said:


> Maybe you don't cheat _because _you're happy, but I think there are many people happy with their marriages who cheat anyway. There's a tunnel vision some either acquire or are born with that allows them to see a relationship as good, happy even, perhaps wonderful... when in fact it's far from.


What you write is scary as **** because it is true. Sometimes it looks like a random roll of the dice.


----------



## Totally T (Dec 20, 2020)

Sorry OP:

I don't know whether I'm a beta male or an alpha male. Maybe a reserved alpha male: I don't feel like I'm truly strong if I have to yell that I'm strong.

But I'm strong and I'm tough and I just cannot goddamn relate to your deal.

Sorry much.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

And, "beta" does, most certainly, exist Ask the guy who couldn't make out in a hoe house with $1000 bill....

And, being an "alpha", on a permanent basis, is somewhat akin to winning "America's Got Talent", being an NFL quarterback, or throwing a 105mph fastball.

You can "fake" it for short periods (again, ask the guy described above who was a successful touring musician for 40 years who only could play alpha on the stage, whose wife married the stage alpha) but, cannot do it "for real". If you're not born that way. won't happen.


----------

