# Another classic LDW/HDH



## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Hey guys, I posted an inappropriate message in the wrong forum right off the bat, so I've been lurking for a few days.

I'm in the ever-common LDW/HDH situation and it's really starting to drain on me (as the HDH). First off, I love my wife dearly. We feel in love and got married in our late teens, and 13 years and 3 kids later, we're now in our early 30s. We've always been LD/HD, and there's always been compromise, times where I've gone without, times where she's "done it anyway." But the situation is really starting to wear me down. I kinda want to make a spreadsheet. 

Her argument is that it's stupid that my entire existence revolves around "that one thing." If things are good in that area, everything is good. If things are bad, everything is bad. She thinks I should not put so much weight on this one criteria as it puts undue pressure on her. But I can't help it, it's just how I am. And judging from what I've read here, I'm certainly not the only one.

Perhaps I'm a little picky though. Thing is, I want her to _want it_. I've never really had meaningless sex with anyone, to me sex is all about intimacy and emotion. So I often deprive myself, passing on her offers of pity-sex, holding out until I finally just take something to get me by. It's also worth mentioning that she has health issues. She hates doctors, but finally went to the gyno after suffering through years of 10-, sometimes 14-day periods. Gyno seemed unfazed, but put her on some BC (unneeded, I'm snipped). BC seemed to actually make things worse, now we're on BC #2. We both feel like the true fix will be a hysterectomy, but that's obviously not without its own side effects.

As an all-around husband, I think I'm pretty great. Her friends all seem to be jealous, as I don't have any solo hobbies like golf, fishing, bar-hopping, sports, etc. I do tons around the house, help with kids' stuff. I basically wait on my wife if she needs or wants anything, water, snack, tissues, purse, etc. I love her like crazy and try to treat her like a princess.

Every time we discuss/argue about anything, I somehow come off being the bad guy, so I try to avoid it. Like I said, she's well aware of the LD/HD problem, and she feels bad about it.

It kinda makes me feel like a **** for wanting sex. I'm insanely physically attracted her, despite all the flaws she sees in the mirror. I sometimes feel like I should just get on some libido-killing drugs so I can be happy.

So, obviously I should cut her some slack for the health issues, but how much slack? Also, she has a perfectly good mouth that she's sometimes willing to put to use, but seems that 90% of the time, she has a cold sore, or sore throat, or sinus issues or SOMETHING.

Any other advice? The D word has been crossing my mind more and more lately, which really just depresses me. We had no lives before each other, everything we have is together, including the kids. Divorce would be a huge deal. But then again, this is a huge deal, and she thinks it's silly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It sounds like you do too much. You're a good wife to her. Look into the 180 and MMSLP (often referenced by other people here, and there are threads about them) and see if they give you any ideas that may spark change.

All her needs are being met in abundance. Yours are not. Shift that balance, and maybe things will improve. Often, they will not no matter what you do, but the referenced ideas have worked for some. It's worth a try before thinking about the big D - but eventually, even the serious, sincere threat of D may be needed to upset the status quo and can sometimes result in change.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

If you are thinking about leaving a good marriage with 3 children because you aren't having sex enough then I agree with your wife you are putting to much emphasis on sex. It's not like you haven't had sex for weeks or months (or years like me) It sounds like you have reached a compromise. It's not as much as you want but if you divorce and are alone there is no guarantee that you will ever have sex much less as often as you want.

Be happy you in a good marriage and are with your children and are getting sex. Maybe you need a hobby so you aren't thinking about sex so often. Leaving your wife and children over this would be selfish of you.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> It sounds like you do too much. You're a good wife to her. Look into the 180 and MMSLP (often referenced by other people here, and there are threads about them) and see if they give you any ideas that may spark change.
> 
> All her needs are being met in abundance. Yours are not. Shift that balance, and maybe things will improve. Often, they will not no matter what you do, but the referenced ideas have worked for some. It's worth a try before thinking about the big D - but eventually, even the serious, sincere threat of D may be needed to upset the status quo and can sometimes result in change.




She can't meet his needs. Period. He's said that he wants her to want it; in other words he wants her to be what she's not. Except that she was always like this and he married her anyway, and now he wants to change the rules. He can stop doing things in the house but it won't make her want it. It might make her put out but that isn't what he wants.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

Happilymarried25 said:


> It's not like you haven't had sex for weeks or months (or years like me) It sounds like you have reached a compromise.


I'd call that statement premature, since the OP never said exactly how often they go between sessions. It could be once every three months as far as we know and most people on this forum would define that as a sexless marriage.

_break break_

CalamityJim, a couple of things. First of all, you need to do an honest assessment of the marriage from your side of the street. I know, you're a pretty awesome husband with little room for improvement, but take some time to ask yourself a few questions. Do you think you are meeting her needs, or are you really doing it? She may say she is 100% happy but gut-check time: is she? If you haven't read it, I recommend a book called _The Five Love Languages_ (you can get it used off Amazon for $5). It may not give you any exact answers but could spark something in your mind about how you two interact with each other. Perhaps she really needs something else from you.

Second, what stresses are ongoing in your marriage? You mentioned her health and having three kids at home - young, I presume, by the length of your marriage. Those can really be taxing on a person. Is there anything else? Financial trouble? Outside family issues? Job (yours or hers)? Any of those things can seriously ding someone's libido, or even prevent them from letting go long enough to enjoy. Is she unable to get into it when you do get going or is mind always elsewhere? If nothing else, eliminate the possibility ... or has it always been this way and there are no conditions that led to it? Either way, understand the answer in your own head.

Third, if you get past those and are where you are now, then it might be time to destabilize things a little as others suggested. I do not mean trying to pick up other women in front of your wife to make her jealous. I mean that instead of relying on her to meet your needs, meet them yourself. Be a little less available. Slowly pull back from doing things for her. Turn down the thermostat a little. Remain upbeat throughout and find your happiness within. When she comments on why you are doing so, simply shrug and tell her that you are taking care of your own happiness and let her ponder the unsaid messages. Book recommendation #2: _No More Mr. Nice Guy_. Do not let the title fool you, it will not encourage you to be a jerk. It is more about being assertive in making sure your needs are met. You can find a PDF version for free online. _Hold On To Your N.U.T.S_ is also excellent in this area.

If none of that works, I would say it is time for marriage counseling. You can't force her to go but you go. Talk to a minister if you are religious.

Only after all these options have been exhausted should you consider divorce. If it comes to that, at least you will be able to look your children, family, and friends in the face and say you did everything possible but could not reconcile your differences. You exit with integrity.

Here's hoping it does not come to that. Best of luck, brother.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Thank you all for the replies. I can't address all questions atm, but we are familiar with the love languages book; we have a copy but have not read it. regarding stressors, her job is the ****tiest job in the world, and i try to get her to quit every day. its definitely a contributor, but we've had issues since before she went back to work less than a year ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

calamityjim said:


> Perhaps I'm a little picky though. Thing is, I want her to _want it_.


So you won't be satisfied if (despite her lifelong history of LD) she is just a willing sex partner with a good attitude? She must _WANT_ it?

You are more than a_ little picky_.
You are *completely unreasonabl*e and unfair to place this demand on her.

(PS, I'm an HDH with an LDW, in case that gives my response above any more credibility to you)


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> It sounds like you do too much. You're a good wife to her.


 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Was this intentional "You're a good wife to her"?



Married but Happy said:


> Look into the 180 and MMSLP (often referenced by other people here, and there are threads about them) and see if they give you any ideas that may spark change.
> 
> All her needs are being met in abundance. Yours are not.


This is why they won't change anything they are doing, because they are already getting what they want.



Married but Happy said:


> Shift that balance, and maybe things will improve. Often, they will not no matter what you do, but the referenced ideas have worked for some. It's worth a try before thinking about the big D - but eventually, even the serious, sincere threat of D may be needed to upset the status quo and can sometimes result in change.


If it "doesn't matter", you at least start to reclaim your personal power and self dignity. Sometimes they were going to get over, no matter what you did. Just made a bad choice, life goes on.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> She can't meet his needs. Period. He's said that he wants her to want it; in other words he wants her to be what she's not. Except that she was always like this and he married her anyway, and now he wants to change the rules. He can stop doing things in the house but it won't make her want it. It might make her put out but that isn't what he wants.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In this particular situation where you cannot do anything more there are things you can do.

You can take time and attention away from them and you can use social proofing, you can also get up inside of your own world.

It's not guaranteed to get her back, but at least it will get you moving under your own power and eventually give you new possibilities.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Hmm... I posted a reply yesterday, but it's not showing up. weird.

Anyhow, no, we do not go months on end. I think we've probably gone a month, but that's not usual. Two weeks is fairly common, but we probably average about once a week. I realize there are guys here who are in much tougher spots than me.

As for additional stressors, she went back to work last fall after our youngest started school. Bottom line, her job is one of the worst I can imagine, and we don't need the money. I try to get her to quit every day, but she wants the extra money for extras. We can pay all our bills on my salary, but not much else. She wants vacations and other extras and is willing to nearly kill herself in the process. And that's definitely a contributing factor to the sexual issues.

We have the love languages book somewhere; we've never read it, but we're familiar with the concepts. I'm physical, she likes deeds and gifts. Typical male/female, I think.

For all of you who called me selfish, thank you. I needed to hear that. I've been happier the past few days by just deciding to be, and it's been nice.

For the record, I'm not considering divorce. I'm just saying that the thought is not as alien to me lately as it once was. I agree that leaving my family over sex would be incredibly selfish.

THANK YOU for the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" recommendation. After reading the synopsis, it seems like the perfect book for my situation.

AND... all this feels pointless at the moment, as we just got out of the shower where we had a very nice quickie.  A quickie, sure, but not a pity-quickie.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

calamityjim said:


> I'm in the ever-common LDW/HDH situation and it's really starting to drain on me (as the HDH). First off, I love my wife dearly. We feel in love and got married in our late teens, and 13 years and 3 kids later, we're now in our early 30s.


*There's an alarm bell right there. Not that there's anything wrong with having stayed with the same person since your teen years (it's actually very nice), BUT... 

In my opinion, people generally go through the basic stages of growing up, in terms of relationships, and you guys basically skipped the last one (or last two, really). Generally speaking, most people tend to spend their late teens and early to mid 20's experimenting, dating a bit, and generally being "free" before one starts to try and settle down. The college years. Focus on yourself, your education (or career), get your own place, maybe party it up a bit, that sort of thing. Date some people, short term or long term, learn about the opposite sex more in depth, etc. Basically gain that all-valuable experience.

There are many people who live happily ever after who have been together since they were 14, 17, 20, whatever. There are just as many (perhaps more, and I count myself as one) who do not. I met my ex wife when I was 19 and she was 17, and we were together for 14 years. It imploded. One of the things she mentioned to me at the end was that she felt she "missed" her 20's, and the freedom and experimentation it entailed. Thankfully we did not have kids, so it was much easier for us to go our separate ways. And FWIW, we both had experience before each other with dating, sex, longish relationships, etc.

But most people are not fully matured before their mid 20's (some even later). Desires change, people grow in opposite directions.*



calamityjim said:


> We've always been LD/HD, and there's always been compromise, times where I've gone without, times where she's "done it anyway." But the situation is really starting to wear me down. I kinda want to make a spreadsheet.


*There's alarm bell #2. You both have always been the way you've been - mismatched desires/needs. At first, it probably didn't matter nearly as much, right? You two are in love and planning a life together. Now with age and experience, you are realizing just how important it IS to you, to be with someone who has a similar desire. I hate to say it, but this is something you would have figured out by having a few more relationships earlier on. My ex wife and I were similar. We figured out our desire levels weren't in sync fairly early on, but we (well, I) thought it didn't matter - we're in love. Also before marriage, the LD partner usually tends to ramp it up a bit, or at least not say "no". This usually goes away. Whether it's because the courtship is over and you're now married so it's not an issue any more, or they just don't have to try as hard. This is a terrible mindset to have, but people DO have it. Some people do believe that marriage changes how much effort you have to put in, which is completely idiotic, imo. Successful relationships don't have that - each person still makes the effort for the other one. You see it both ways, men and women. It's almost like marriage is a benchmark for some people (especially LD's). An imaginary line they cross in which the rules are different on the other side, and they can pack up the version of them that necessitated landing, and keeping, a partner. The irony is, those people, should they end up divorced, do the same thing again when trying to land another partner. They do what must be done until they reach their goal, and the cycle continues. It's a very strange mindset to have.*



calamityjim said:


> Her argument is that it's stupid that my entire existence revolves around "that one thing." If things are good in that area, everything is good. If things are bad, everything is bad. She thinks I should not put so much weight on this one criteria as it puts undue pressure on her. But I can't help it, it's just how I am. And judging from what I've read here, I'm certainly not the only one.


*And alarm bell #3. She is starting to resent your desires to be close to her. There is no room for resentment in a healthy relationship. And this isn't your fault, either. Nor is it hers, really.*



calamityjim said:


> Perhaps I'm a little picky though. Thing is, I want her to _want it_. I've never really had meaningless sex with anyone, to me sex is all about intimacy and emotion. So I often deprive myself, passing on her offers of pity-sex, holding out until I finally just take something to get me by.


*There are some recent threads on this very subject, including one I started in which I feel the exact same way as you do. They revolve around possible asexuality, general selfishness, and meeting each others needs, among other things.

I, too, do not gain anything from meaningless sex. I don't think I'm capable of it. I've had what most people would call meaningless sex before, and I wasn't capable of not attaching some sort of emotion to it, whether my partner(s) completely forgot about it the next day or not. I didn't fall in love with the few girls I hooked up with, but I didn't just brush them off, either. I'm just not capable of sleeping with someone and turning off that light switch on my way out the door, if you know what I mean. And I'm a dude. Sex is not meaningless to me, and it's disconcerting to see the majority of people, men and women, who are fully capable of this. I wish I was, but I also wish THEY weren't, if that makes sense.*



calamityjim said:


> It's also worth mentioning that she has health issues. She hates doctors, but finally went to the gyno after suffering through years of 10-, sometimes 14-day periods. Gyno seemed unfazed, but put her on some BC (unneeded, I'm snipped). BC seemed to actually make things worse, now we're on BC #2. We both feel like the true fix will be a hysterectomy, but that's obviously not without its own side effects.


*Those don't help, but they shouldn't automatically preclude two people from meeting each others needs when possible.

If she hasn't had her hormones checked, I might suggest that. What's going on with her may be affecting those levels, and if that's the case, it's relatively easy to fix. In fact, I'm thinking her hormones are definitely out of whack, what with 2-week long periods and all.*



calamityjim said:


> As an all-around husband, I think I'm pretty great. Her friends all seem to be jealous, as I don't have any solo hobbies like golf, fishing, bar-hopping, sports, etc. I do tons around the house, help with kids' stuff. I basically wait on my wife if she needs or wants anything, water, snack, tissues, purse, etc. I love her like crazy and try to treat her like a princess.


*
Another alarm bell - you are going above and beyond (in your eyes) to meet her needs, without her having to meet yours. Why should she? There's no challenge. You do everything for her, anyway. Although relationships shouldn't be about tit-for-tat, that's generally how they are. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. When one person is spoiled in that regard, no matter what they do or don't do in return, they start to view it as a case of not HAVING to do anything because you're doing all the work they require anyway. There's no symbiosis in this marriage right now.

Stop treating her like a princess, because she now believes she is one. Put yourself in her shoes - she comes home from work every day and you're in your boxers on the couch watching TV. You may have taken care of a few things around the house, but she still has another couple of hours of work to do (make dinner, for example). When she finishes the household chores, you're still on the couch in your underwear, and she comes over and gives you a BJ.

Is any of that going to get you off the couch in order to meet her needs? Of course not, you've got it made. Your wife does most of the stuff around the house AND you get sex!

I'm not suggesting your wife does nothing, nor sits around in her housecoat and slippers watching A&E all day, but it does seem the balance is way off in terms of who's doing the work. Even if it's 70/30 or 60/40, it's still imbalanced.*



calamityjim said:


> Every time we discuss/argue about anything, I somehow come off being the bad guy, so I try to avoid it. Like I said, she's well aware of the LD/HD problem, and she feels bad about it.
> 
> It kinda makes me feel like a **** for wanting sex. I'm insanely physically attracted her, despite all the flaws she sees in the mirror. I sometimes feel like I should just get on some libido-killing drugs so I can be happy.


*See my post from the other day in this section. What another poster said mirrors this sentiment exactly. Feelings of guilt, included.*



calamityjim said:


> So, obviously I should cut her some slack for the health issues, but how much slack? Also, she has a perfectly good mouth that she's sometimes willing to put to use, but seems that 90% of the time, she has a cold sore, or sore throat, or sinus issues or SOMETHING.


*
Excuses. They might be valid most of the time, but they are excuses nonetheless. What she (and all other partners, male or female alike) should be doing when they're not meeting their partners needs is to take a raincheck, or take care of those needs in other ways. Instead of just parading out the excuses time after time.

She is not listening to you. She is not even hearing you, I don't think. These things are not priorities to her, and that is fine. But they are important to YOU and your well-being. You make her a priority, and treat her like a princess. Why? Because she is important to you and you want to make her happy, and that makes YOU happy. She does not feel the same way (at this moment).

The imbalance isn't so much about sex drives, it's about the relationship as a whole. That's what I've learned here at TAM. Two people with mismatched drives can certainly have a fantastic marriage despite their differences on the subject.

What it comes down to is the mismatched desire to make your partner happy and meet their needs - NOT sexually mismatched desires.

You have the desire to do things for your wife to make her happy and feel special and important. She does not. Plain and simple. You power through the stuff you'd rather not be doing because you understand the need for it. She does not. And the end result is that it's rewarding (or should be) when you do things FOR your wife, to alleviate her burden, or generally make things easier for her. It makes you feel good, and makes you feel like a good husband. She does not derive the same pleasure from doing things for you. THAT'S the problem.*



calamityjim said:


> Any other advice? The D word has been crossing my mind more and more lately, which really just depresses me. We had no lives before each other, everything we have is together, including the kids. Divorce would be a huge deal. But then again, this is a huge deal, and she thinks it's silly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rubymoon (Jul 21, 2014)

tommyr said:


> So you won't be satisfied if (despite her lifelong history of LD) she is just a willing sex partner with a good attitude? She must _WANT_ it?
> 
> You are more than a_ little picky_.
> You are *completely unreasonabl*e and unfair to place this demand on her.


 100%


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Replies seem to be very polarized. Some say, omg, gtfo now, others say i'm unreasonable. I'll take the middle road and try to work on things.

I was in a bad mood when I wrote the original post. I'm not unhappy in my marriage. But I occasionally wonder if my happiness is simply due to ignorance. Perhaps a more joyous plane is out there, but I'm not in a position to seek it.

I should clarify some things.

First, I certainly don't want to make it seem like my wife does nothing. She almost solely tends to the kids and the house. I help out where i can, but as with most husbands, I send my kids out dressed like blind hobos when left to my own devices. And when I "cook," it's hot dogs or tacos or something similarly not classified as "cooking." But nonetheless, I do help.

I definitely feel that missing out on my 20s has been a detriment. Also, I was a greasy, fat nerdy kid back then, and now, I'm a marginally fit, reasonably attractive man. I feel like I could have lots of luck with the ladies now, whereas back then, it was basically zero. In fact, I've been guilty of a couple of extramarital emotional relationships, which when she found out about them really sparked an uptick in our sex life. As in, she was wearing me out for a while! I guess what I really need is to figure out how to spark that again.

Before I continue, let me say *THANK YOU*, alexm, for your thoughtful and insightful response. Even though it was all in bold, which is pretty weird.  I'll be seeking out those other posts in a bit.

My conundrum is in how to handle the rejection. On the one hand, I can get pissed and depressed and make sure she knows how I feel, but on the other hand, that I feel like that tends to have a negative effect on the future. She already feels guilty about rejecting me, do I need to rub it in?

I don't know. My emotions have been a roller coaster lately.

The kids are gone for the week. This is the second time in a month. Last time was kidless and sexless. Whoopty doo. Lets see if this time is any different.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyr View Post 
So you won't be satisfied if (despite her lifelong history of LD) she is just a willing sex partner with a good attitude? She must WANT it?

You are more than a little picky.
You are completely unreasonable and unfair to place this demand on her. 




rubymoon said:


> 100%


What some people seem to be missing here, is that OP (and others like him) do not require SEX, they require what goes along with sex with the person whom they love.

She is withholding a basic staple of married life simply because she decides she can and/or is unwilling to bend to meet his needs.

None of this is to say that she needs to please her husband every day, twice a day. What this DOES say is that she needs to recognize that her husbands needs are different than her own (as his are different than hers).

All he wants is for his wife to think of him as important enough to want to make him happy and fulfilled by meeting his most basic human and marital needs. This is not a difficult concept to swallow.

No wife out there wants her husband to hold her hand if he keeps asking "is that long enough?" or says "Fine." or "I held your hand last week, remember?" He should WANT to hold her hand because it makes HER happy.

As of now, she is doing a **** job of making him feel as though he is important to her.

It's not about sex.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

alexm said:


> What some people seem to be missing here, is that OP (and others like him) do not require SEX, they require what goes along with sex with the person whom they love.
> 
> She is withholding a basic staple of married life simply because she decides she can and/or is unwilling to bend to meet his needs.
> 
> ...


Alex, you're expressing my own feelings much more eloquently than I am capable. I think we're soulmates.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You can't give her something impossible (I want her to want it) to do. But eventually she will want it if you ramp up your masculinity.

You should definitely read the book you have. You have to find out what her equivalent to sex is (do this by trial and error though, not by asking her to fill out questionaires).

You have to elevate your way of thinking about life and giving your wife choices.

Example: You are TRYING to get your wife to quit her job. What you should be doing is defining a life that happy fulfilled parents make happy fulfilled children and that her job is harming her marriage, her husband and her children. And give her the choice of what kind of mother and wife does she WANT to be.

Same goes for marriage. It's not I want sex.. It's "a marriage is a sexual relationship".... and "wives and husband have to meet each other's needs".. and "what kind of wife do you want to be"....

So your assignment is nothing to do with your wife. It's for you to elevate your thinking about what your values are, what work is for, how you as a husband will act, how you expect your wife to act, what are your goals for your family, how should your family operate... And develop these ideas within yourself... And eventually give your wife choices make... I.e.. I think marriages are sexual, what do you think?


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Convection, I've been at work all day, but have gotten little accomplished. Mostly, I've been reading _No More Mr. Nice Guy._ I'm sure this book gets recommended all the time here, but I can't thank you enough. I am absolutely a Nice Guy, and my problems go far beyond just this sexual thing. One of our core issues is that we don't have any regular friends outside of one another. We're relying too much one one another to meet all the emotional needs and it's draining us both.

This book is changing my life. I'm frustrated that I didn't learn about it sooner.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

I'm pulling my hair out. This thread was my first post on TAM. Based on replies, I read NMMNG and MMSLP, which made me realize a lot of things about myself. I started to "man up." Things were great for a while. But now, exactly a month later, I find myself in the same situation.

Thing is, I'm not bringing it up. But she asks what's bothering me, and it's the fact that I don't feel loved. I want her to be passionate about me, and she's just not.

Maybe it's time to give up.

She says I'm crazy, that no woman has regular, passionate sex with her husband. Because her group of friends all have bad marriages?

"It isn't the center of my world, it just isn't. Sure, there are girls out there (early 20s and otherwise unattached) who are sex fiends. But they don't put the value on it that you do--I can guarantee you that."

"I feel like no matter what I do, it really just is about the sex. Always. Forever. And that ultimately, you're going to have to get you a 20-year-old sex fiend or an internet girlfriend who talks dirty to you to be able to be "happy." And I just can't cope with that, unfortunately."

I just don't know what to do.

She keeps bringing up "sex" and "between my legs," etc. But that phrasing cheapens it so much! 

Alexm said it best:


alexm said:


> What some people seem to be missing here, is that OP (and others like him) do not require SEX, they require what goes along with sex with the person whom they love.
> 
> She is withholding a basic staple of married life simply because she decides she can and/or is unwilling to bend to meet his needs.
> 
> ...


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

If a woman is LD and her H puts pressure on her to have sex, it's just going to make her resentful, not trust you love, and pull away. If there's one thing I've learned on TAM, it's that many men view regular sex as a necessity. Without it, they may just leave.

For a LD wife, she needs to know you love her no matter what. She MUST trust you in this regard or her feelings of love toward you will go away and she will think you only really love her if you can have sex with her.

Now, if that is true, if you can't love her without sex, then you have a big decision to make. If that is your truth, you need to tell her that. She may be thinking that now and just praying it's not true. Because if that is true, she will probably feel like your love has been conditional.

LD women love with their hearts more than their bodies. If she suspects you love her when you get sex and don't when you don't, you are headed for the big D or at least some sad years.

I think you should look up how often married men and women actually have sex. The Kinsley Institute has that info on the FAQs page of their web site. They have also been studies that show men don't lose interest in sex over time but that women do. Whether we are talking about 20 year olds who are in committed relationships or 40 year old married women, the longer a woman is in a relationship the less interest in sex she has. Of course, the high drive women on TAM will dispute that, but it's true generally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

ebp123 said:


> If a woman is LD and her H puts pressure on her to have sex, it's just going to make her resentful...


Right... which is why I'm NOT pressuring her, or even bringing it up. But when she asks what's bothering me when I'm sitting, staring into space, should I just _lie?_
not trust you love, and pull away. If there's one thing I've learned on TAM, it's that many men view regular sex as a necessity. Without it, they may just leave.



ebp123 said:


> LD women love with their hearts more than their bodies. If she suspects you love her when you get sex and don't when you don't, you are headed for the big D or at least some sad years.


I speak her love languages fluently. I don't think she doubts that I love her, regardless of the frequency of sex.



ebp123 said:


> I think you should look up how often married men and women actually have sex. The Kinsley Institute has that info on the FAQs page of their web site. They have also been studies that show men don't lose interest in sex over time but that women do. Whether we are talking about 20 year olds who are in committed relationships or 40 year old married women, the longer a woman is in a relationship the less interest in sex she has. Of course, the high drive women on TAM will dispute that, but it's true generally.


Not to be rude, but I don't really care how often other people are having sex. Plus, I question the validity of these surveys. What counts as sex? A quickie in the shower? An hours-long encounter by candlelight? They seem to carry the same weight in these studies, but one of those fulfills a need much better than the other.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Another classic LDW/HDH*



tommyr said:


> So you won't be satisfied if (despite her lifelong history of LD) she is just a willing sex partner with a good attitude? She must _WANT_ it?
> 
> You are more than a_ little picky_.
> You are *completely unreasonabl*e and unfair to place this demand on her.
> ...


Bullshyte. It is NOT too much to seek out the love you want. All your post (with your attempt at credibility) tells me is that you have accepted mediocrity. 

To need your wife to desire you is not unreasonable. That doesn't excuse the OP from working his @$$ off to try to figure out the puzzle.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

calamityjim said:


> Right... which is why I'm NOT pressuring her, or even bringing it up. But when she asks what's bothering me when I'm sitting, staring into space, should I just _lie?_
> not trust you love, and pull away. If there's one thing I've learned on TAM, it's that many men view regular sex as a necessity. Without it, they may just leave.
> 
> 
> ...


I'm advocating you tell her the truth, in full. That's the opposite of lying. 

She doesn't doubt your love, but you are thinking of divorce because of a lack of sex? You are deceiving her because your love is waning based on a lack of sex.

As for the statistics, if you aren't interested in them, then that's fine. I suspect she might be, though, if she were to see them. Would you share them with her and say, look, I know what I'm asking for is more than many people get....?


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

ebp123 said:


> I'm advocating you tell her the truth, in full. That's the opposite of lying.
> 
> She doesn't doubt your love, but you are thinking of divorce because of a lack of sex? You are deceiving her because your love is waning based on a lack of sex.


I have been truthful. I'm not "thinking of" divorce as a reality, but it's a concept that doesn't seem quite as alien as it once did.

So you're suggesting that I tell her that divorce has rolled around in my mind? Yet, in order for her to love me like I want, she has to trust me I won't leave? That's contradictory.

There's no sense in mentioning divorce. I'm not entertaining the thought with any sense of realism. I have re-iterated (to her) my devotion to her and to our marriage. She continues to worry on a daily basis that our marriage will end because she's "not enough" for me, and that's not at all what I want.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Another classic LDW/HDH*



calamityjim said:


> I have been truthful. I'm not "thinking of" divorce as a reality, but it's a concept that doesn't seem quite as alien as it once did.
> 
> So you're suggesting that I tell her that divorce has rolled around in my mind? Yet, in order for her to love me like I want, she has to trust me I won't leave? That's contradictory.
> 
> There's no sense in mentioning divorce. I'm not entertaining the thought with any sense of realism. I have re-iterated (to her) my devotion to her and to our marriage. She continues to worry on a daily basis that our marriage will end because she's "not enough" for me, and that's not at all what I want.


The term contradictory uses logic. Her desire is not logical. You are going to have to stop thinking about it in a logical, rational way. 

I went through something similar with my wife. Unlike what some folks have said and agreed with, I refused to live in a desireless, sexless marriage. For two years we were at once per month or less. As I write this, we are at several times per week with passion. But it is not a total victory, only a temporary win. I have to continue to improve myself to make sure I never again become the person she did not desire.

Never be afraid to pursue the love you want.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

calamityjim said:


> I definitely feel that missing out on my 20s has been a detriment. Also, I was a greasy, fat nerdy kid back then, and now, I'm a marginally fit, reasonably attractive man. I feel like I could have lots of luck with the ladies now, whereas back then, it was basically zero. *In fact, I've been guilty of a couple of extramarital emotional relationships, which when she found out about them really sparked an uptick in our sex life. *As in, she was wearing me out for a while! *I guess what I really need is to figure out how to spark that again*.


So...let's talk about the emotional affairs you've had. What did you do as a WS, and what have you and your wife done as a couple, to properly address your EAs and heal your relationship? 

By the way, figuring out how to spark hysterical bonding again shouldn't be your goal. Even if you do seem to feel that you could do better than your wife now. Because what sparked that was your emotional infidelity. And that is no way to build either trust nor a lasting marriage.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Lila said:


> CJ,
> 
> Don't know if you've done so already but AlexM's thread
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/208746-huge-turn-events-now-extremely-confused.html
> ...


Thanks. I think I came across that link a month ago, but I'm reading it again.



Lila said:


> One thing you keep bringing up is wanting "passionate sex". What do you define as "passionate sex"? Maybe what your wife defines as passionate sex is above and beyond what you are actually looking for from her.


I don't mean in the movie sense, where clothes are being peeled off without breaking the kiss, I mean "mean it" sex, where both parties want it and are active and participating. No starfish, no shower quickies, etc.



Lila said:


> Here's a suggestion...Rather than focusing on your differences, you need to start finding some common ground with her. Have her list the things she wants out of your love life. Then compare them to what you want. Pair up the stuff that match and do those in the interim while you compromise on the other stuff.


Thanks.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

ebp123 said:


> I'm advocating you tell her the truth, in full. That's the opposite of lying.
> 
> She doesn't doubt your love, but you are thinking of divorce because of a lack of sex? You are deceiving her because your love is waning based on a lack of sex.
> 
> As for the statistics, if you aren't interested in them, then that's fine. I suspect she might be, though, if she were to see them. Would you share them with her and say, look, I know what I'm asking for is more than many people get....?


It's not sex that's lacking, it's that she can't/won't speak HIS love language. Furthermore, there are excuses as to why. Further-furthermore, she is worried that she is "not enough" for him and that he'll ditch her for a 20-something sex freak.

This all seems very much like she's shooting herself in the foot, no?

She recognizes and admits that she's potentially not enough for him, yet does nothing to change that. So the big question is "why not?" Is she scared? Does she not really care? Are there bigger issues at play?

A marriage IS a sexual relationship, like it or not. Otherwise it's a friendship, or a partnership. Sometimes that is all some people want, or they're simply happy living with that dynamic.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

Rowan said:


> So...let's talk about the emotional affairs you've had. What did you do as a WS, and what have you and your wife done as a couple, to properly address your EAs and heal your relationship?


I'm not sure I know how to answer that. The first thing I did was realize the damage. Initially, I didn't believe I had done anything wrong, since there was no physicality. Obviously, I am an idiot. After that, I don't know, we bonded, were really close for a while, then I guess we've drifted apart a little.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Rowan said:


> So...let's talk about the emotional affairs you've had. What did you do as a WS, and what have you and your wife done as a couple, to properly address your EAs and heal your relationship?
> 
> By the way, figuring out how to spark hysterical bonding again shouldn't be your goal. Even if you do seem to feel that you could do better than your wife now. Because what sparked that was your emotional infidelity. And that is no way to build either trust nor a lasting marriage.


Exactly. Hysterical bonding is just that - hysterical. It's a reaction to an action, but temporary, and usually based upon something negative in the relationship.

What you want is to generate the same reaction but because of something positive. She felt threatened that you would leave as a result of the EA's, therefore she reacted in an animalistic way, which is normal. But as soon as she's sure the job is done, she stops.

Two people don't have meaningful sex because one of them feels threatened as a result of the other's actions. That's unhealthy.

What you need to do is to find a way to replicate this feeling she had, but not generated from a real threat to your marriage. For starters, stop telling her things like you'd never in a million years leave her, or cheat, or "I never look at other women, only you, baby". That sort of thing. What you're saying with those words or actions is that she has no need to mark her territory, because you're already doing it for her.

Don't be afraid to get caught looking at another woman walking down the sidewalk, but also don't make it completely overt, either. If a woman is being nice to you, even flirty, in front of your wife, don't shut her down (but don't lead her on, either). Let her inner jealousy come out once in a while. Let her know that there's never a guarantee in anything, including the marriage. But also don't make your wife look bad or unimportant. It's a slippery slope.

In other words, stop reassuring her, in words and actions, that she can do the bare minimum and you'll never ever leave her or go elsewhere. But don't go too far in the other direction, either.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

alexm said:


> Exactly. Hysterical bonding is just that - hysterical. It's a reaction to an action, but temporary, and usually based upon something negative in the relationship.
> 
> What you want is to generate the same reaction but because of something positive. She felt threatened that you would leave as a result of the EA's, therefore she reacted in an animalistic way, which is normal. But as soon as she's sure the job is done, she stops.
> 
> ...


A guy who's had at least 2 emotional affairs has verifiably crappy boundaries with other women. He's going to have to be seriously careful implementing the above advice. Otherwise, he'll spend all his time with a triggered BW and/or end up slipping down the slope into yet another EA or even a PA. Since he's said he didn't really know how to answer the "what have you done to heal your marriage from your infidelity" question, my guess is that he still doesn't have a good enough grasp on healthy boundaries to manage this all that well.

OP, if may be time to seriously look into MC, if you two are not already in it.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Bullshyte. It is NOT too much to seek out the love you want. All your post (with your attempt at credibility) tells me is that you have accepted mediocrity.
> 
> To need your wife to desire you is not unreasonable. That doesn't excuse the OP from working his @$$ off to try to figure out the puzzle.


I don't expect my wife to *want* sex.
She is LD so it would be foolish of me to expect that.
I do expect my wife to want to meet my needs, and since one of my needs is regular sex, therefore I expect my wife to actually have sex with me on a regular basis with a good attitude.

And she does exactly that: we have sex twice every week, and I am quite satisfied with our sexlife (and so is she with probably a 60% orgasm rate for her) DESPITE the fact she has zero desire for sex.

It comes down to her having a good attitude and wanting to meet my needs regardless of her own lack of sexual desire.

Can you understand that?
You can't make her *want* sex.
You can expect her to want to meet your needs.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

calamityjim said:


> She says I'm crazy, that no woman has regular, passionate sex with her husband. Because her group of friends all have bad marriages?
> 
> "It isn't the center of my world, it just isn't. Sure, there are girls out there (early 20s and otherwise unattached) who are sex fiends. But they don't put the value on it that you do--I can guarantee you that."
> 
> ...


I've looked but I don't really see these basic facts:
1. How often would you want (expect) to have sex?
2. How often do you now actually have sex?

Depending on your answers above, I would suspect that your own sex drive is "within the range of normal". Also it sounds like her sex drive is very much on the low side. Also I completely disagree with her ridiculous logic about only 20 yo girls have a sex drive, and if her group of friends believes that, well they are wrong and their husbands are both miserable and largely to blame for putting up with it. 

Please answer the above and we can go from there.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

calamityjim said:


> I have been truthful. I'm not "thinking of" divorce as a reality, but it's a concept that doesn't seem quite as alien as it once did.
> 
> So you're suggesting that I tell her that divorce has rolled around in my mind? Yet, in order for her to love me like I want, she has to trust me I won't leave? That's contradictory.
> 
> There's no sense in mentioning divorce. I'm not entertaining the thought with any sense of realism. I have re-iterated (to her) my devotion to her and to our marriage. She continues to worry on a daily basis that our marriage will end because she's "not enough" for me, and that's not at all what I want.


In an earlier post you said you don't think she doubts your love, but now you say she questions it daily. And you've had multiple EAs. Can you clarify what you mean? Those two statements are contradictory.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

*Re: Re: Another classic LDW/HDH*



tommyr said:


> Can you understand that?
> You can't make her *want* sex.
> You can expect her to want to meet your needs.


I couldn't agree more. 

But you can damn sure *inspire* her to want to desire you.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

I'm going to join the chorus here, Jim and ask for a little more context.

Does your wife, roll her eyes, sigh, ask if you're done yet and answer the telephone during sex? 

Or is she just less enthusiastic than you would like?


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

So many posts to respond to...



tommyr said:


> I've looked but I don't really see these basic facts:
> 1. How often would you want (expect) to have sex?
> 2. How often do you now actually have sex?


I'm more concerned with quality than quantity. If the sex were great and passionate and intimate, I think twice a week would be fine. But quickies' effects only last about a day, so I'd say 5-7 times a week. I'm gonna use our "current" stats from prior to TAM of 2-4x a month.



ocotillo said:


> I'm going to join the chorus here, Jim and ask for a little more context.
> 
> Does your wife, roll her eyes, sigh, ask if you're done yet and answer the telephone during sex?
> 
> Or is she just less enthusiastic than you would like?


No, it's not quite that bad. But when she's not into it, it's pretty obvious.



ebp123 said:


> In an earlier post you said you don't think she doubts your love, but now you say she questions it daily. And you've had multiple EAs. Can you clarify what you mean? Those two statements are contradictory.


She doesn't question my love daily, she questions the strength of our marriage



lila said:


> How do you determine whether or not she "wants it" or "means it"? Is there a historical precedent that you could reference during discussions with her about your sex life?


Well, prior to a recent fight, I referenced the period immediately after learning of the EAs, where she went nuts. Lingerie, positions, multiple times a day, surprise BJs in the middle of the night, etc. But now I find out that was just a desperate attempt to save us by proving that she was "enough"

I'm also getting a lot of mixed advice. Some say she needs to trust that I won't leave, some say she needs to be a little afraid that I might. Not sure which is the best approach.

We're not in MC and never have been. I'm open to it if things don't improve.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

calamityjim said:


> So many posts to respond to...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a woman with LD, if my husband did the 180 on me I'd be more than pissed. To me that is just a passive aggressive attempt to gain the upper hand and therefore toxic and immature. I've yet to read about anyone who did a 180 and felt it worked out for them. 

If a woman wanted to know there was enough money coming in, would you ignore the question or show her your ample bank account? Moreover, would you ask why she is so worried about money? I think that's the real issue here. All your efforts to speak her love language have not reassured her. She worries and until you know why and work on that, sex will always have a cloud over it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

I should also mention that other forms of physical intimacy may suffice. For example, long (30s), intimate kisses. But she's not into that either. I've brought it up.


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## alonetogether8 (Aug 25, 2014)

Your situation sounds a lot like mine, except I feel I treat my husband like a King, but instead of being treated like a Queen, I am some lowly servant. 

It's very depressing. I love him and the thought of not being with him makes me feel sick, but I also don't want to spend the rest of my life feeling unloved and unappreciated.

I feel like my moods do revolve around sex and not getting it. It's important to me.

I don't really have much advice since I am in the same boat, but I know how you feel.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

tommyr said:


> So you won't be satisfied if (despite her lifelong history of LD) she is just a willing sex partner with a good attitude? She must _WANT_ it?
> 
> You are more than a_ little picky_.
> You are *completely unreasonabl*e and unfair to place this demand on her.
> ...


I don't understand this. Isn't one of the wonderful things about being in a (sexual, not platonic) relationship that you desire each other sexually, a special bond you share with only that person? Your spouse is someone you should enjoy sharing mutual desire with. I don't think it's unreasonable to want your wife to want to have sex with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

I think you are getting some good advice here from Alex and others, but I do want to chime in as a wife who denied sex for many years. 

While the theme of "meeting needs" is a worthy one, having the need to have your wife desire you passionately is a tricky one. Why? Well, because if she doesn't feel it, she doesn't feel it. She can go through the motions and have a good attitude about it, yes--but if you are saying that those things are STILL not enough, then you do have work to do, and more important, so does she. 

The sort of passionate desire you need cannot be faked, so if you're not getting it, she's not feeling it. Unless she's willing to look very closely at herself and her sexual nature, you're going to be left sort of flailing around in the dark. Yeah, you can do the MMSP/NMMNG thing, but will it work? Will she resent you for it? Will it make you more likely to be impatient if you don't get results? 

Best case scenario is to get her to realize what sex with her means to you. As Alex says--it's not about the sex. It's about the intimacy and the bonding and the feeling desired. Not having those things when you long for them can eat a hole in your soul. This is something that I simply did not "get" for those years when my husband and I were having sex only a few times a month. 

I don't know what words you have used when expressing to your wife how this is affecting you--but I suspect she is not "getting it." It was when I stumbled across TAM and read threads akin to this one and Alex's and many, many others that the lightbulb went off. At that point I WANTED to find my desire for the sake of my husband because he is very much like you--he wants the real deal only, and not getting that from me had profoundly affected his happiness. 

I don't mean to sound like a Debbie Downer, but she has to want to figure out how to want sex. And to an LD, finding that inspiration is not going to "just happen." She has to admit and accept that she's not attracted to her husband, figure out why, and trust you enough to say, "This is what I need you to do in order for me to respond to you sexually." Are you willing to hear that from your wife? Are you willing to change if need be? 

For women who feel no sexual attraction to the man they love, the mountain can seem way to big to climb--if they even see the mountain at all.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I'm still betting that his largely unaddressed multiple EA's are a huge factor in his wife not desiring him passionately. It can be very hard for some women to be - to even _want_ to be - passionate about a man they don't particularly trust emotionally. Even if the EAs happened after the sex began to be unsatisfying to him, she may be reluctant to make real efforts to improve things in the wake of them. 

OP, it's possible that the two of you are locked in a negative feedback loop that will take some professional guidance to sort out.


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I don't understand this. Isn't one of the wonderful things about being in a (sexual, not platonic) relationship that you desire each other sexually, a special bond you share with only that person? Your spouse is someone you should enjoy sharing mutual desire with.


Yes, I agree it *would* be wonderful if my wife had sexual desire equal to mine. I would also really like it if she came with an 8 figure trust fund. But I guess life, and marriage, involve compromise. And I accept the following as an overall "good deal" for spouse: we get along great; I am attracted to her; she is mother to my children; she's a fantastic mother and home maker; she's smart and stands up for her self; comes from a great family; she is happy to meet my needs; she has low sexual desire; she is willing to have sex twice per week with a good attitude and she has regular orgasms.

I don't blame my wife for her low desire. But truth be told, alot of HER needs are just not very high on my own personal list, but I do them anyway. Because that is how a good marriage works, each knows and cares about the spouse needs, and does their best to meet it.

If you knew my whole story, you'd know we nearly divorced 8 years ago over sexless marriage before we had a breakthrough on this very topic.



Livvie said:


> I don't think it's unreasonable to want your wife to want to have sex with you.


Ok I concede it's reasonable to *want* her to want sex, like me wanting her trust fund.
But it's unreasonable to *require* this of an LD partner, and the way OP told this sounded like a dealbreaker expectation. So he can either "settle" for something she may be willing/able to offer him (a regular sexlife with a good attitude) or he can divorce her over something she is unable to offer (a normal sexual desire).


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## tommyr (May 25, 2014)

calamityjim said:


> I'm more concerned with quality than quantity. If the sex were great and passionate and intimate, I think twice a week would be fine. But quickies' effects only last about a day, so I'd say 5-7 times a week. I'm gonna use our "current" stats from prior to TAM of 2-4x a month.


Well at 2-4x per month that sounds on the low side.
At twice per week, this is sounding like a "normal" level
5-7X per week sounds like a tough sell in your situation.

Let's go with the compromise (and completely reasonable) of 2X per week. Have you tried discussing a 2X per week frequency goal with your wife? What did she say? Would she agree to that?


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

GettingIt said:


> I think you are getting some good advice here from Alex and others, but I do want to chime in as a wife who denied sex for many years.
> 
> While the theme of "meeting needs" is a worthy one, having the need to have your wife desire you passionately is a tricky one. Why? Well, because if she doesn't feel it, she doesn't feel it. She can go through the motions and have a good attitude about it, yes--but if you are saying that those things are STILL not enough, then you do have work to do, and more important, so does she.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post. She doesn't understand. That's the whole problem. I think I said this, but her words of "sex" and "vagina" and "between my legs" are indicative that she's not equating it with my need for physical intimacy. From our long text conversation today: 

(Me): "Your definition of sex is 'a warm place to stick it.' My definition: 'the physical manifestation of two people passionately in love.'"
(Her): "I am in love with you, and the fact that you won't accept it in other forms just makes me resentful."

Rowan, the EAs were several years ago. I can't promise that there is no bearing on our current situation, but it really doesn't feel like it.

5-7x a week is only if it's pity/duty sex. If it's good sex that she's into, sex that involves a position change or two, I don't think that I would even want more than twice a week. But it seems impossible to get to that point.

And you admit, tommyr, that a lot of your wife's needs are low on your priority list, but you make them a priority anyway. That may be part of the problem. My wife's needs are inherently high on my priority list. That's why I can't understand her dismissiveness of my own. Of course, the "man up" plan says to screw her needs unless yours are being met, so I don't know.

As far as what I need to do, I need to find a good workout plan. I need to man up more. My initial assertiveness seemed to work, but it may have just coincided with ovulation. 

*sigh*

I love her so much, guys. I wish I hadn't mentioned divorce in my initial post, because it's really not an option to me. Not unless things get really bad and we've gone through several bouts of MC.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

calamityjim said:


> Thank you for this post. She doesn't understand. That's the whole problem. I think I said this, but her words of "sex" and "vagina" and "between my legs" are indicative that she's not equating it with my need for physical intimacy. From our long text conversation today:
> 
> (Me): "Your definition of sex is 'a warm place to stick it.' My definition: 'the physical manifestation of two people passionately in love.'"
> (Her): "I am in love with you, and the fact that you won't accept it in other forms just makes me resentful."


Would she be willing to read some books on the matter? I've not read it myself, but I've heard His Needs, Her Needs recommended a lot. What if you asked her to consider that the way she is showing love isn't the way you feel loved? There seems to be fundamental disconnect in her ability to empathize with the pain this is causing you. I admit: I was very dismissive of my husbands attempts to explain it to me. In part, this was because I didn't think he could possibly be attracted to me due to our marital problems. Do you think your wife could feel this way? That you couldn't possibly _really_ be attracted to her, _couldn't _really love her . . . thus you are just looking to scratch an itch. I mean, she already feels "less than" what you need (possibly as a result of your EA's), so is it a stretch to think that she is untrusting of your talk of sex as a "physical manifestation of two people in love"?




calamityjim said:


> My wife's needs are inherently high on my priority list. That's why I can't understand her dismissiveness of my own. Of course, the "man up" plan says to screw her needs unless yours are being met, so I don't know.


Again, your need to have her desire you is a tricky one. She can't just conjure it. She can have sex with you with a good attitude . . . but I think that is not what you are after. You want her desire to meet yours in intensity and sincerity, no?

She has to go searching for her libido, she has come to understand and develop and nurture her sexual self before she can share it with you. 



calamityjim said:


> As far as what I need to do, I need to find a good workout plan. I need to man up more. My initial assertiveness seemed to work, but it may have just coincided with ovulation.


If you do those things, do them for yourself. If you do them with the expectation of positive results in bed, then you might encounter yet more frustration and resentment. 



calamityjim said:


> With that being said, I was really, really relieved when my husband found MMSLP and came to understand what I'd been trying to tell HIM for years: that he depended on me way too much for his own happiness. I wasn't attracted to a husband who didn't have hobbies and friends and good health because he was stressed out about lack of sex all the time. It was too much blame to shoulder, and I resented it.





calamityjim said:


> I love her so much, guys. I wish I hadn't mentioned divorce in my initial post, because it's really not an option to me. Not unless things get really bad and we've gone through several bouts of MC.


I hope you can get through to your wife. Sexuality is a part of us all and (I think) each of us is capable of learning and growing in ways that might seem impossible. We just have to WANT to--for ourselves, and so we can share that part of ourselves with another.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

omg, guys. Breakthrough.

We talked last night. We talked for a long time.

First, as much as I didn't want to, I brought up the EAs. "Plural??" Turns out she only "counts" the woman I knew personally, internet was a non-issue. On the bright side, that was almost ten years ago. She has forgiven me and moved on. Thoughts still crop up from time to time, but we're largely past it.

Second, and this may help others struggling with LD wives not understanding their needs... She feels no emotional bonding from sex. To her, sex is purely physical, an itch she needs to scratch periodically. Personally, I find it difficult to wrap my head around, and I worry a little about her cheating, something I have _never_ worried about before. But it falls perfectly in line with the fact that she always dwells on the physical and can't seem to understand how deep it is for me (and alexm, and many others).

Third, I think we found the hurdle. The thing that's preventing her from completely giving in, always holding back, and that's my relationship with my preteen son. Frankly, he can be a bit of a jerk, but I lose my temper with him far too easily. Also, she's 100% against corporal punishment, where I think that's the one thing that will get through to him, because he doesn't bat an eye at punishments. She feels like the mama bear that has to protect her cub, which distances her from me emotionally. 

In other words, if I want to have the deep emotional bond with my wife that I sorely desire, I have to control my emotions with my son. If that's not incentive enough to do it, I don't know what is.

We still have a lot to work on, but I can see the end. And it feels great. Thanks everyone for your replies and support.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

calamityjim said:


> Also, she's 100% against capital punishment, where I think that's the one thing that will get through to him, because he doesn't bat an eye at punishments. She feels like the mama bear that has to protect her cub, which distances her from me emotionally.


It's great that you two are getting somewhere and good to hear. 

I'm hoping you're talking about corporeal punishment


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You are starting to see the whole puzzle and how the pieces fit together. 

You should not only control your emotions with your son, but control them with everyone. Whether you realize it or not, she watches you every time you do that. 

Keep working at it. You are making great progress.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

It's actually not uncommon for women not to feel emotional bonding from sex. For many women, an emotional connection is necessary for them to want sex, but sex doesn't do much to build or foster an emotional connection that's not thriving in the first place. You'll never be able to have enough sex with your wife to make her feel loved. Her feeling loved will be reliant on other, non-sexual, aspects of your relationship. Sex isn't going to do that for her - or for many women.

I recommend the book _His Needs, Her Needs _by Willard Harley very highly. It may help you and your wife out with understanding where each of you is coming from regarding sex. And regarding her desire for the two of you to be more in-tune with raising your son.


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## calamityjim (Jul 18, 2014)

ocotillo said:


> I'm hoping you're talking about corporeal punishment


Ha! Fixed.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

#1, don't get too excited. I've heard these kind of "breakthroughs" a hundred times on this website. Most of the time, it turns out to be another red herring. It's not fixed until it's fixed, if you know what I mean.

#2, I can't help but think that the one who needs a spanking is the one you sleep with every night.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Do you think she could your need to spank a preteen boy as . . . well, weak? To her it could demonstrate a lack of control, and inability to lead by example. 

(I'm not saying your son isn't difficult--I have a 12 year old son and he seems to make it a point to steadfastly show us that no punishment fazes him. We could tie him to a fire ant mound and he'd whistle Dixie.)

If your wife doesn't respect how you parent, then she likely isn't respecting you as a sexual partner. It's good that you talked about it. I suggest coming up with a parenting plan that you both can agree on. This is different than you just backing down and letting your son get away with murder. Show some leadership and be creative--get some ideas from a pediatric therapist if you need to. 

How my husband handles our kids is one of the key factors in my respect and attraction to him. This issue could be a very important launching point for you.


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## BostonBruins32 (Nov 2, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> You are starting to see the whole puzzle and how the pieces fit together.
> 
> You should not only control your emotions with your son, but control them with everyone. Whether you realize it or not, she watches you every time you do that.
> 
> Keep working at it. You are making great progress.



This.

Zen yourself in the face of a tense child or wife moment. It may help your marriage(she's watching) but it will undoubtably improve yourself as a man, a leader, and a parent. These improvements hold value whether or not your marriage continues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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