# Newly weds not having sex



## Jay12 (Dec 4, 2017)

I married my wife in July. We had sex the night of our marriage, and then once more on the first night of our honeymoon at the very beginning of August. She did some hand stuff and a very small amount of oral for me about 3 more times lasting until early September, and won't touch me and won't let me touch her ever since and it is now early December. 

Now there is a little more background to this. We had been together a little more than 4 years prior to getting married. Sex life was good and exciting in the first few months. She then began to have some vaginal pain which made sex understandably more difficult for her to be excited about. It reduced to about a monthly thing, which was less than ideal but doable, while other activities usually involving our hands was once every week or 2 in addition to monthly sex. Though she initially seemed really into me performing oral on her in our first months together, I made the mistake of asking her to do a little more grooming down there, and that made her not into it anymore and she stopped having me perform oral on her for several years (despite her seemingly enjoying it, and I enjoyed doing it as well despite my brief grooming complaint). We got engaged in 2016 and almost immediately our sex life took another hit. She pretty much no longer wanting me to touch her with my hands, even though she would still touch me (mostly just hands) but this was maybe once per month. After a couple months of some touching with hands and no sex, I convinced her to go to couples counseling with me with a sex specialist (in January). This seemed to have mild improvements, as did her going to essentially a physical therapist for her pelvic floor to address physical pain. Some momentum started to build forward as we had sex a couple of times (which in itself was a huge success that it occurred at all, even though it was not to completion) and she began touching me more, while we were building towards her being comfortable with my touch again. Due to the momentum, counseling was ended and the therapist left us with some exercises to practice on our own (essentially starting with sensual but non-sexual touching to build on) and a book recommendation for her to read. The momentum almost immediately stopped once we left counseling, which she blamed on stress as we were closer to preparing for our wedding, so I didn't overly question it. Though we stopped counseling, she was expected to continue with physical therapy. These sessions took place when I was at work, so I assumed they were continuing, but it wasn't until months later that I found out that she stopped going as soon as counseling ended. 

Here we are now, months into our marriage and the biggest sexual drought we have had given that even hand stuff is a no go. We have had sex I think 4 times in the past year (twice late in counseling a couple months before we got married, and twice immediately after being married). I have talked to her several times about going back to couples counseling, and she keeps denying wanting to go. I also believe she is a bit depressed, and she has had counseling in the past for anxiety, but I can't convince her to go back to individual counseling either. The compromise was she finally agreed to get the book that was recommended for her to read, and I ordered it, but it has sat unopened for 3 weeks. I don't even try to convince her to touch me anymore, I have simply been trying to convince her to read the book. Today she said she will be less stressed in 2 weeks and will start reading it then (which will be 5 weeks after we received it, 6 weeks since she agreed to read it, and about 9 months since it was recommended to her). I don't really believe she will read it. This feels like a tactic to get me to stop asking her to read it for a bit, and the reason I don't believe she will read it is because this tactic feels so familiar to the idea of her avoiding sexual interaction with me (I would wait until "a less stressful time" and still nothing would happen). 

This is incredibly frustrating for me. I'm up after 2am writing this because I could not sleep as frustration got the better of me, as it often has in the past 3 months. I read others posts online tonight who experienced sexless marriages, and I cried, which is not common for me. The part that really made me cry was that most stories I read just got worse rather than better. The most optimistic post I read was an update from a poster who got divorced and was happier for it, which was deeply disturbing for me as that is the last thing I want. I fear that is where things could go though, given I'd don't think I could live in a sexless marriage forever. I always valued being a loyal person, but my sexual fantasies have gone off the rails. I can't even fantasize about my wife because it is too frustrating thinking about what she won't do with me. I used to look at porn just for a little escapism and some guidance as I touch myself. Now, it is a fantasy that I find myself desiring in a more true sense, like my former virgin teenage self who would watch porn and think "I can't wait to do that some day." This makes me fear the idea of a real life temptation coming along. I don't ever want to cheat on my wife, but the longer I go without any sexual gratification, the more I worry that I wouldn't turn down the opportunity if it came up. 

I love her so much and would do anything to just engage intimately with her. She is a wonderful, loving person. We connect on so many things and we get along about every other issue. When we are with our friends, including several other couples, we seem like the happiest couple of the bunch, and it is genuine. We communicate very well on every other disagreement. We generally communicate well on this issue even, though I admittedly withhold some of my distress because of knowing her history of anxiety would be heightened and make sex even less likely (or simply out of pity, which IMO isn't much better than no sex at all especially if she does something that is physically painful for her). She has little insight into why she suddenly started feeling pain, and even less insight on why she can't bring herself to touch me starting in September. I don't even know if I have much of a question. I'm generally at a loss, and I think she is too, and I'm just kind of ranting to get this all out. I think one of the hardest things for me at this time is the seemingly lack of effort on her part to make the improvements. I get optimistic at moments when she expresses something that indicates effort (e.g., her agreeing we can order the book), but then I'm more disappointed and pessimistic then I was before when I see no follow through (e.g., not actually opening the book like she said she would). As I said, I'm just kind of ranting to get this out, but obviously I'm open to advice and other responses.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

OK, tough situation. In my opinion, this is where the responsibilities lie;

You - Communicate to your wife that your reasonable sexual needs are not being met in the marriage and is causing you to be unhappy and question the longevity of your marriage (no tricks - just tell her exactly what you are telling us). It is important that you don't play tricks or wash over the facts. Your honest communication is your responsibility. 

Her - She needs to acknowledge your concerns and communicate with you what she feels needs to change. It seems to me that she has some serious personal issues to work on. Like you haven't mentioned something here. Has she been sexually abused in the past? She needs to continue with PC and communicate with you her progress. 

Understand that women's sexual desire if formed emotionally from interaction with her partner. Be open to discussion on how you can change to help her. 

Accept that your reasonable sexual desires need to be met. Sex is one of our most primal needs and it can't just be ignored. To do so will end in bitterness and passive aggressive behavior which will deteriorate your relationship. Better to be totally and brutally honest now than have that happen to you in the future.

Good luck. Doesn't sound like an easy time.


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## Jay12 (Dec 4, 2017)

Thanks for the feedback. 

She has not been abused, at least as far as she has said and I believe her. To the best of my knowledge, the info that I did not include that I considered potentially related, but not obviously related, were that she was a virgin prior to us having sex (she lost her virginity at 25 and is now 29) and that the initial drop in her sex drive seemed to be following a leg injury (which was considered as a possibility for why something was off with her pelvic floor). The other thing is that I alluded to her anxiety, which is generally pretty high and definitely seems related. It seemed that her physical pain stimulated anxiety, and the anxiety has just snowballed to the point that she can't do sexual things that would not be physically painful. She can't even do sensate focus (one of the techniques our therapist suggested), and now as I mentioned, even a book about it is avoided.

I've definitely been open to what I can do, though I have not received much feedback in this department from her. I've got a few "maybe if..." type responses from her and I have incorporated them, but this didn't change anything. My changes in what I do have extended well beyond the bedroom, though most of the suggestions have entailed not pressuring her for sexual interaction (and I'm not highly pressuring in the first place). 


I'm aware I need to communicate. She definitely knows of my frustration and knows I'm serious about it (pushing for therapy, both individual and couples attests to that), but you are right that I have not been as clear about my worry about longevity. I've alluded to it, but not as clearly as I have here. This has kind of been a learned behavior on my part, due to the more I have pushed for improving our sex life, the worse our sex life has gotten (and usually an obvious and immediate decrease). I think I have avoided this more clear communication due to fear of these problems bleeding into other aspects of our life, which have been great. I know that it may be best to be clear about these concerns sooner rather than later, but for now I'm looking at it as me following through with something already agreed upon, which is me giving her those 2 weeks to start reading, and then if no efforts have changed, even more strongly pushing for a return to couples therapy, at which time I will be more clear about these concerns.


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## pragmaticGoddess (Nov 29, 2017)

You’re right. There are a lot of posts on TAM about sexless marriages. And also a lot of advise to D and find someone equally sexually compatible. 

If you haven’t you need to sitdown with your wife to have a honest discussion in a relaxed environment. As the most important person in your life, I hope she will be open and honest. Let me know your needs and talk about hers. 

All the best.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

Jay12 said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> She has not been abused, at least as far as she has said and I believe her. To the best of my knowledge, the info that I did not include that I considered potentially related, but not obviously related, were that she was a virgin prior to us having sex (she lost her virginity at 25 and is now 29) and that the initial drop in her sex drive seemed to be following a leg injury (which was considered as a possibility for why something was off with her pelvic floor). The other thing is that I alluded to her anxiety, which is generally pretty high and definitely seems related. It seemed that her physical pain stimulated anxiety, and the anxiety has just snowballed to the point that she can't do sexual things that would not be physically painful. She can't even do sensate focus (one of the techniques our therapist suggested), and now as I mentioned, even a book about it is avoided.
> 
> ...


Sounds fair. Remember, you cannot ignore your concerns. They have to be brought to conclusion one way or another. 

If your conclusion is to give her time and freedom, then make sure you do. 
If you conclude to leave, communicate it, openly plan the transition, and do it with responsibly.
Don't let yourself agree to anything you know you can't live with.

Consider this the learnt knowledge of my last marriage. lolz.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree that you need to have a discussion with your wife in which you tell her what you have said here. You want a normal sex life and not having that is making you profoundly unhappy. 

Is your wife on birth control? I ask because for some women it completely kills their desire for sex.

You mention your wife's anxiety. She just does not get to hold your sex life hostage because she has anxiety. Her complaints about pain sound not quiet real, like it's an excuse. 

Anything less than her enthusiastic participation in counseling, sex therapy and a psychiatrist for herself should not be accepted by you. What she's doing is holding you hostage.

I'd suggest that you give this a 3 months or so more and if she does not start engaging in a sex life (2-3 times a week at least) than divorce her and find someone who wants to have a sex life.


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## poida (Jan 17, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that you need to have a discussion with your wife in which you tell her what you have said here. You want a normal sex life and not having that is making you profoundly unhappy.
> 
> Is your wife on birth control? I ask because for some women it completely kills their desire for sex.
> 
> ...


OK, well Elegirl said it better.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

Nothing is going to change in the next two weeks, Jay. And I worry that you'll just keep allowing her to extend the deadline. She's happy with the status quo and plans to leave things this way until one of you is dead. I remember as a newlywed when I used to get teary-eyed riding the train to work. I'd look out the window with my head turned at a hard angle so that other passengers wouldn't see me. At a certain point, when I was about 5 minutes before my stop, I had a ritual where I'd talk myself down to make the tears go away so that I wouldn't be embarrassed walking into the office. The problem with spouses like our is that they hurt you twice: you have to deal with the hurt of feeling undesirable, but you also have to deal with the hurt of having a "best friend" who cannot even recognize your need as a legitimate one or even try to work on it. It makes you feel worthless on two fronts. And then you're sort of stuck. You want her to demonstrate, on her own, that your worth enough for her to try. If you force it, it doesn't "count" somehow. So you're left in limbo, gently dropping hints about what you need and watching her take no action. I've been there. I was there for years. It will not happen organically--nothing will change.

She's got some serious hangups and will take no initiative on her own to address them. Your gentle approach will yield nothing, except to reassure her that it's really not such a serious issue. Again, I know from experience. I suppose in the greater scheme of things it doesn't hurt to give her two more weeks. But if the book remains unopened, it's time to raise the specter of divorce. Yes, the **** will really hit the fan, but it's the only way to communicate to her that it's a really serious issue. Let her envision what life might be like without you. It will also change the power dynamic in the relationship where she'll suddenly respect you in a way that she did not before. This newfound respect might cause her to have a new level of attraction for you which might reignite your sex life. 

In any case, you need to address this now. Over the years your hurt and resentment will only build to a point where it becomes intolerable. Don't make the same mistake I made. If I could go back in time, I would have had gotten "tough" about the issue within the first year of my marriage. As men, we've been conditioned to believe that talking frankly about feelings is the way to deal with marital discord. Maybe it's true when it comes to other marriage issues. But for some reason, when it comes to sexless marriages, this gentle, no-ultimatum approach does not yield results.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

I was in a 100% sexless marriage for the last 4 years of my 8 year marriage. I hated my ex for many reasons, very unattractive to her, and wouldn't touch her with a 10' pole. Sounds like you love her, so there is definitely some hope if she loves you too. I agree, you need to stop tip toeing around the issue to avoid confrontation and fear of setting her back further. You either start making progress or start making plans to divorce her. She needs to know that you are serious. Start giving her consequences. Are in great shape? If not, hit gym 5x a week. Leave her at home all night long while you pump iron. Start going out with your buddies. She needs to know she isn't on a pedestal and she is replaceable. You may also need to read No More Mr Nice Guy. That woke me up and I separated a month later after realizing if I want something in life, only I can make the changes to make it happen. I was just on cruise control and not living a fulfilling life. 

You're lucky you don't have kids, so a divorce is easy. Even if you have 3 cars and a huge mortgage, divorce is easy. When I was young, I was scared to divorce because we just bought a house. So I stuck it out another 8 years and 2 kids later. For you, it's just a simple business transaction and you NEVER have to see/talk to her again! So remember that, you're going to be OK no matter what!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

My W denied any sex abuse or rape history. Then 29 yrs into the marriage I finally had a fix-it-or-end-it talk with her about our marriage. She revealed child sex abuse!

Your W’s presentation is consistent with CSA or rape.

Regardeless, she is 2 things. She is dysfunctional and she is not compatible with you. The incompatiblity is emotional and belief system in addition to the physical sex.

Your stress about this is normal.

I finally divorced. I wish I’d done it before we had kids. Kids kept me trying to fix things for decades. But it isn’t fixable.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Give her a deadline, 6 more months after which you will seek an annulment to end this marriage based on her fraudulent representations. Because that is what this is - a bait and switch fraud.


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## Slartibartfast (Nov 7, 2017)

..


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This is not way to live. 

First rule out medical issues, drugs, birth control etc. 

Second - no matter what, don't get her pregnant until this is settled - it will leave you trapped for the rest of your life.


Then see if she will go back to counseling. Its reasonable to give it 6 months to try anything you can to fix it, but no more. Use me as the poster child of what happens if you just "keep tying". Loving her is not enough. I've been married 30 years now, and I've spent most of it frustrated by our lack of sex. Don't do what I did.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jay,
I am going to share a couple observations based on a lot of reading. There is no way for any of us to know if your wife really has pain. And with regard to assessing your sex life it doesn’t matter at all. 

If the issue really was pain, your wife would be doing other stuff with you. The total absence of other activity is proof positive that her lack of desire for sexual is unrelated to pain, as she has an actual aversion to even those non painful things.

Which means she has an aversion to sex. Sexual aversion is completely different than low desire. 

Oh - and before I forget - I ought to mention one more thing. 

You have already raced down the stability staircase. Each time you provided more stability, your already minimal sex life took a noticeable hit. This is the norm for folks with partners suffering from sexual aversion. The safer they feel in the relationship, the more comfortable they become showing their true selves. 

These type folks truly dislike sex. So at some level they can not grasp that you feel the opposite. Largely because of that, they feel comfortable being very manipulative and dishonest about the whole topic. 

But for all this to result in marriage, there needs to be a partner who is comfortable being deceptive (the sexually averse person), and a partner agreeable to ‘going along to get along’ - which in this case is you. 

As you are discovering, nothing more painful than loving someone who doesn’t really love you the same way. And this is totally asymmetric pain. Intense for you, mild for her. So she’s fine and will carry on as is until you can’t take the pain anymore. Not her fault really. You told her she was perfectly fine as is, by proposing/marrying her. 




Jay12 said:


> Thanks for the feedback.
> 
> She has not been abused, at least as far as she has said and I believe her. To the best of my knowledge, the info that I did not include that I considered potentially related, but not obviously related, were that she was a virgin prior to us having sex (she lost her virginity at 25 and is now 29) and that the initial drop in her sex drive seemed to be following a leg injury (which was considered as a possibility for why something was off with her pelvic floor). The other thing is that I alluded to her anxiety, which is generally pretty high and definitely seems related. It seemed that her physical pain stimulated anxiety, and the anxiety has just snowballed to the point that she can't do sexual things that would not be physically painful. She can't even do sensate focus (one of the techniques our therapist suggested), and now as I mentioned, even a book about it is avoided.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I almost completely agree, but for the below. I think the the people who dislike sex honestly cannot imagine someone liking it. They may understand the physical sensation of orgasm, but its not a big deal to them. They can't understand why it matters to anyone else.

My wife's description of me is that my desire for sex is just like a spoiled child who gets unhappy if they don't get dessert. No words will convince her that I'm not just trying to manipulate her into sex. 






MEM2020 said:


> These type folks truly dislike sex. So at some level they can not grasp that you feel the opposite. Largely because of that, they feel comfortable being very manipulative and dishonest about the whole topic.
> 
> .


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I almost completely agree, but for the below. I think the the people who dislike sex honestly cannot imagine someone liking it. They may understand the physical sensation of orgasm, but its not a big deal to them. They can't understand why it matters to anyone else.
> 
> My wife's description of me is that my desire for sex is just like a spoiled child who gets unhappy if they don't get dessert. No words will convince her that I'm not just trying to manipulate her into sex.
> 
> ...


Is this is your wife's description of you (a spoiled child-- because you desire a regular sex life with your wife), then she is purposely trying to shame you into believing that a regular sex life isn't the cornerstone of a marriage.

When she next says this, why don't you suggest that if this is her belief system, then you two should get divorced and just be friends. Because after all, that's pretty much all you are. You certainly aren't lovers. Marriage is a sexual partnership. Friendship doesn't have that dynamic.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

You are free. What is holding you in her orbit? if there was ever a time to go your own way, this is it!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Don't want to derail this thread, but long thread at
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/357010-strange-case-ms-uhtreds-sex-life.html

In general I agree with you, but after 30 years of marriage, not so easy. That is why I'm advising the OP to solve this problem on a set time limit, or leave. 





Livvie said:


> Is this is your wife's description of you (a spoiled child-- because you desire a regular sex life with your wife), then she is purposely trying to shame you into believing that a regular sex life isn't the cornerstone of a marriage.
> 
> When she next says this, why don't you suggest that if this is her belief system, then you two should get divorced and just be friends. Because after all, that's pretty much all you are. You certainly aren't lovers. Marriage is a sexual partnership. Friendship doesn't have that dynamic.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

anonmd said:


> Give her a deadline, 6 more months after which you will seek an annulment to end this marriage based on her fraudulent representations. Because that is what this is - a bait and switch fraud.


I would re-phrase this. I would give YOURSELF a deadline of 6 more months. If she has not shown dedication toward working on this and progress on providing sex, then I would seek an annulment or divorce. I would not tell her the specific deadline. I would simply tell her that you have no intention of living in a sexless marriage. Then she either steps up and works toward being bale to provide you with sex, or you get to the deadline and leave. The deadline is not for her benefit. It is for yours. Too easy to convince yourself to give her "just a little more time". Time / life is precious. Save yourself form yourself. Set an internal deadline.

She is not a bad person if she cannot do the work and cannot provide the sex life you desire. She is simply incompatible to be your wife. You are not a bad person for leaving her. You are saving both of you from decades of fighting, disappointment, frustration and pain. Take it from those of us who were too foolish to leave early - you are not doing HER any favors by staying even if it seems you are being "nice" to her by staying and being "mean" by divorcing. Years later when you hate her guts because she was never able to have sex with you, and contempt drips out of your mouth every time you speak to her, she isn't going to be thanking you for staying with her. Trust me, in a large portion of sexual mismatches, the meanest thing you can do to the other person is stay with them and rob them of the chance to be with someone who appreciates what they do offer instead of resenting them for what they don't.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> This is not way to live.
> 
> First rule out medical issues, drugs, birth control etc.
> 
> ...


Take this to heart.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> I would re-phrase this. I would give YOURSELF a deadline of 6 more months. If she has not shown dedication toward working on this and progress on providing sex, then I would seek an annulment or divorce. I would not tell her the specific deadline. I would simply tell her that you have no intention of living in a sexless marriage. Then she either steps up and works toward being bale to provide you with sex, or you get to the deadline and leave. The deadline is not for her benefit. It is for yours. Too easy to convince yourself to give her "just a little more time". Time / life is precious. Save yourself form yourself. Set an internal deadline.
> 
> She is not a bad person if she cannot do the work and cannot provide the sex life you desire. She is simply incompatible to be your wife. You are not a bad person for leaving her. You are saving both of you from decades of fighting, disappointment, frustration and pain. *Take it from those of us who were too foolish to leave early - you are not doing HER any favors by staying even if it seems you are being "nice" to her by staying and being "mean" by divorcing. Years later when you hate her guts because she was never able to have sex with you, and contempt drips out of your mouth every time you speak to her*, she isn't going to be thanking you for staying with her. Trust me, in a large portion of sexual mismatches, the meanest thing you can do to the other person is stay with them and rob them of the chance to be with someone who appreciates what they do offer instead of resenting them for what they don't.


Add to that the anger at yourself for not standing up for yourself, the loss of self respect, confidence, and self esteem.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Holdingontoit's 2 rules for sexual mismatch:

1. Do not get married while you have a mismatch - it isn't fair to either of you.
2. Do not have kids while you have a mismatch - it isn't fair to the kids.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Malaise said:


> Add to that the anger at yourself for not standing up for yourself, the loss of self respect, confidence, and self esteem.


I agree. But most guys who are staying despite the lack of sex are "nice" guys who are terrified of hurting the other person. They (we) tend not to care as much about themselves (myself included). In my experience, the guy fears and feels guilty about taking advice based on what is best in the long run for him if he thinks it will harm his wife. After all, if his primary focus was selfishly on what is best for himself, he never would have married her in the first place. So, in my experience, advice based on what is best for HER is more likely to overcome his resistance to leaving. Plus it has the additional benefit of being true. If they cannot resolve the sexual mismatch, it really is better for both of them if he leaves.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

OP, you need to seriously sit down and read all the posts in this thread and take them for Gospel.

When I read your posts I immediately thought of uhtred.
Please for the love of all the is right in the world, please listen to the advise that is being given in this tread.


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## RonP (Dec 6, 2017)

poida said:


> OK, well Elegirl said it better.


This needs sorting out and I think Elegirl really set it out right.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

I find it difficult to connect her pelvic/physical issues to her unwillingness to pleasure you in other ways. 
She has you on a drip system that is keeping you alive.... "ill read the book in two weeks".... "ill give you a handjob in 3 weeks"...."

Someone suggested reading "no more mr nice guy" - i recommend the same..
Other books that are similar, that every man should read is - Hold on to your NUTS and The Way of the Superior Man.
Most of these books are short (2-3 hours) and will provide you with greater return on investment

Her problems are NOT yours to fix (and those books wont help) - but they WILL help you realize what you need and how to achieve it.


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