# Trying to get more sex...



## JustMe1976 (Jul 19, 2017)

I'm new to this forum, and this is my first post.

Sit back...this might be a lengthy post.

A little background: My wife and I have been married almost 14 years. She's also about 6.5 years older than I am (she's 47, I'm almost 41). We have a son who is 12 (we started trying to conceive immediately after marriage). We got married in late May, and conceived in August of the same year. Our son was born two days before my wife's 35th birthday, and about a month before our 1st wedding anniversary. She's a stay at home mom, and we home school our son.

At the beginning of our marriage (and even when we were dating), the sex was much more frequent and varied. Even oral sex was involved. I think at one point early in our marriage we were doing the "sex every day" thing. We even had frequent sex during her pregnancy. That period of time was the only time in our full relationship (dating plus marriage) we didn't use condoms or any type of birth control (more on this later).

For the last few years, the sex has really tapered off, and gotten very plain vanilla. Not for a lack of me _trying_.

The problem I'm having is that she never seems interested in sex anymore. She's not the cheating kind, so I know there's nothing going on there. I feel like I'm always *chasing* it. At times, I feel like I almost have to *BEG* for it. And as I write this post, I would guess it's been close to a month since the last time we had sex. I know she has a lot going on, and so do I, but she seems completely disinterested.

I don't want to call them excuses, but it seems to be that she's either "too tired", menstruating, or "recovering from the friction" from the feminine hygiene products. I understand not wanting to have sex during menstruation, but even in the latter two cases, it seems I can't even get her to manually stimulate me or give me oral sex (I'd use the other terms, but since this is my first post, I don't know if they're really allowed here). And I don't know if it's occurred to her to _volunteer_ to do so...

And when this happens, it makes me feel rejected, and sometimes makes me feel lonely. It probably shouldn't, but it does. And unfortunately, it seems like I masturbate far more often than I actually get sex. And to that end, sometimes if I _think_ we're gonna have sex, and I'm feeling horny, I'll hold off masturbating. Then when it doesn't happen, and I think it might happen the next day...well, lather, rinse, repeat, until I eventually find some "alone" time and take care of things myself. I'm not really sexually satisfied right now.

And I don't want to call our sex "wham, bam, thank you, ma'am", but it's typically a few minutes of kissing (and _only_ kissing), condom, then sex. And during the kissing (I guess you could call it foreplay, I don't), most of the time she won't even let me fondle/kiss her breasts, or manually stimulate her. And she keeps a shirt on a lot of the time. Every now and then (and she has to be in the right mood, I guess) I can do the fondle/kiss/nipple sucking thing on her breasts, but that's not often. It's almost like she's not interested in participating. Almost like it's an _obligation_ instead of a want-to thing.

And she just seems very disinterested. She _says_ she still gets horny, but it doesn't show. She never really "instigates" sex either, unless you count not turning off the bedroom light as "instigating". I'd really like her to instigate (and sometimes take control, but not in a kinky dominatrix or S&M kind of way) more often, and wear the negligee that she has more often, too And our sex has turned into one position -- missionary. And she basically leans herself up against a bunch of thick pillows, so entry angle starts to become an issue.

Positions and things we _used to_ do are just a distant memory to me now. I can't remember the last time I actually got oral sex from her. And as I mentioned previously, sex has become one position. And infrequent.

I'm also at a point where I don't want to use condoms anymore. I haven't wanted to for years, really, but that's another story. I've mentioned possibly getting a vasectomy, but I think she's against it, because "it's surgery". I'm perfectly willing to, especially since we're not planning to have any more children. But she won't/can't take the pill, because she did when she was younger (in her 20's, before we met) and had a bad reaction to it. She's also overweight, and that might play a part, but I never mention it to her.

We also think she may be going through perimenopause. I don't know what that does to sex drive. Maybe that's why she doesn't want me to have a vasectomy. But I've read perimenopause can last from 3 to 10 years.

I would hate for us to have to *schedule* sex, but I've heard some couples do that. That makes sex seem like a chore, though. Especially if she's "too tired" or whatever.

I'm not sure what to do here. I don't feel like I can talk to her about it, because I think I know how the conversation will go, and I don't want to make things worse. But at the same time, I want sex more than once a month or once every six weeks. Neither of us are really the "divorce" kind, either. She comes from a family that doesn't believe in it, and in my family I've seen it too often. So divorce is out of the question.

As far as positions, after our son was born, she started saying she "can't" do certain positions anymore. And the oral sex just stopped one day. She just decided it wasn't gonna happen anymore. I think she read some article or something about oral sex and cancer, and it scared her. But I've never gotten a clear reason why. She also has uterine fibroids. She won't really go to the doctor for ANYTHING.

So I'm really not sure what to do here. Any thoughts or advice?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Its a combination if things. Peri menopause is likely one if them and that can turn off the libido like a switch.

Another is much more insidious.

When you got together she was 33 and you were roughly 26-27.

According to Athol Kay the author of the "married Man Sex Life" serious of books and blogs, when men get with significantly older women it is due to a flaw in their game or a level of insecurity that makes them settle for what is available.

You don't mention other kids so I'm assuming she does not have other children.

What likely happened here is she was a 33 year old female that could only hear her biological clock ticking and she had a bad case if "Baby Rabie" and she hooked a young and naive guy that was having trouble getting younger women. 

She may have wanted you to father and help raise her offspring and help provide a stable home, but wasn't all that sexually attracted to you and ince the stable home and parenthood was established, sexuality is simply no longer on her radar.

My suggestion is to get the Athol Kay books and bump up your attractiveness and sexiness and see if she responds to that in a positive manner.

If she doesn't, your son is old enough to not be harmed by an ammicable divorce and a 41 year old gainfully employed and nonobese male is capable if getting a a woman in her early 30s that still has 10-15 years of functional libido left.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

JustMe1976 said:


> So divorce is out of the question.


That being the case I'm sorry to say unless you are willing to have sex with others on the side, I think you should resign yourself to more masturbation and less partnered sex.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She got her kid and stay at home gig so she's good. 


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Well, you're screwed - not in the good way. The chance of anything changing regardless of what you do is miniscule, but you may as well try. Read the books others have suggested, and also "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (available free for download - search for it). If you eventually decide you can't live with this, then make changes at home first: get the kid in school, get your wife to get a job, and then file for divorce. Your only other options are to live with a sexless marriage, or cheat. I don't advocate cheating, but when the other person is already breaking their vows and cheating you out of love and affection, I'm not judgmental. Better to just divorce - or negotiate an open marriage, perhaps, rather than cheat.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Destabilize her world, do it NOW. Talk about it, discuss it, work your way up to being an ******* about it. When she calls you a sex fiend own it. Don't wait, menopause is just around the corner.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Is she on any medication, anti-depressants etc that could be affecting her libido. I'd eliminate possible physical causes first. 

Are you able to talk with her about it to understand what she is thinking?

This is a depressingly common problem - and really miserable for you (and maybe her). There are a lot of threads here on similar topics that are worth browsing. 

You have my sympathy - I'm in a marriage with very little sex, and its really bad. In my case though there never was much sex, so I'm pretty sure my wife is just low libido in general.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

While this advice will sound STUPID, when trying to figure out how to get more sex out of a relationship, you may also need to work on getting less sex as well. OK that makes no sense, but here is what I am getting at...

If your wife needs to say no, do you have a plan B, C, & D that are alternate activities that can happen (that are not sex) so that you feel loved and content? Because if "sex" is the ONLY option for you to be happy with intimacy, then you will have some serious problems! 

Here are some examples of alternate forms of intimacy that can help you feel loved and relaxed that do not involve sex:

Backrub
Exercising together
Cooking together
Just talking about sex in a constructive way

You can also encourage her to participate somehow in your solo gratification. If for any reason this topic seems to trigger arguments, then you two should have a long talk about "why" it is causing the two of you to have issues and you may uncover the source of some of your problems. Generally speaking a wife should be open and willing to participate indirectly in making your moments of solo gratification be something that brings the two of you closer. Perhaps it could be something as simple as her asking you to shop for her some sexy cloths and to enjoy yourself while you think of her and find something that you think will look attractive for her to wear (not necessarily lingerie, but perhaps a comfortable bath robe, pajamas or something she can wear when you two snuggle). Or she could shop with you to find certain novelties to help you enjoy your alone time. If you two still wear condoms, perhaps a variety pack from Amazon that includes all sorts of random brands and styles for you to experiment with on your own (aka posh wank). You may discover a new brand or size that makes the experience of wearing condoms completely different. Asian condoms are rather tight and can prolong the moment, while some larger brands can allow for a more relaxed fit and be much more stimulating. I'm sure that might be something you will have fun exploring on your own and then sharing with your wife what you discovered and see if it can add to your excitement for when the two of you are together. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## JustMe1976 (Jul 19, 2017)

Let me address a few of the things that have been brought up.

She was 32, I believe, when we met. She tells me at the time she had no intention of ever having kids, until she met me and we'd dated for a while. We dated for a year and a half before we got married.

And I've seen pictures of her in college. She was more fit then. She was a little chubby when I met her, but after our son came along, it's like she let herself go completely. All she really wears now, regardless of the time of year, is sweatpants and t-shirts.

And the reason I say divorce is out of the question is severalfold. We have a special needs child (high functioning autism). He's actually immature for his age. And even if I wanted to go that route (and I don't want to be another "divorce statistic"), I doubt she'd sign the paperwork anyway.

And yeah, I could probably stand to lose 20 pounds or so myself. I'm actually making an effort to. I'd like her to get in shape with me, but she doesn't seem overly keen to that idea, either. I did mention us possibly doing Tai Chi together, but she wants me to learn it and then teach her. On top of all the other stuff I'm doing, and my usual workout routine.
@Personal...

Sex on the side is out of the question.

@MBH...

We pulled him out of school for a very specific reason. And the only way she'd get a job is if our son were older and we lived somewhere else. She doesn't like to drive, and the town we live in is mostly blue collar and retail. Neither industry she'd want to work in.
@anonmd...

I'm afraid that might make it worse.
@uhtred...

She's not on medication, but I think she had been in the past. I do think she's had bouts with depression in the past. A lot of those types of medications (like the birth control pills I mentioned) give her weird side effects. I can't say she "doesn't do anything" all day, and I know our son can be a handful. She also says she doesn't sleep well at night, which is why she's often "too tired". But it's like she won't even go to the doctor to get examined, because she says she won't do anything about it anyway.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Is your son getting the professional intervention he needs, or is it all done by supermom?

There's been a similar case here in TAM (since deleted) and let's just say it did not end well.

Any history of mental illness in her family?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Well, you're stuck for the moment. Somehow, force a change of some kind - destabilize, as anonmd suggests. If you can get your wife to do something positive, you may be able to build on that and make more progress. Or, if things get worse, you'll be more motivated to take drastic action. You're in the neutral zone presently, and as bad as it is, you don't see a way to change things. So, destabilizing things - upsetting her world to whatever extent is needed - is the only way to get HER to do something different, and then YOU can do something as well. If you can't motivate her with love, then fear is the next method.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

A few points in no particular order -

- her states intentions when you met mean nothing, if Mother Nature wanted her to reproduce, she would have Baby Rabies even if she said she didn't.

- if you were both invested in the love and care of your son, then there's no reason you could not be cooperative coparents and give him the care he needs from two different homes.

- you do need her to consent to divorce and she wouldn't need to "sign" anything. It only takes one person to make a divorce happen and the court will oversee the division of marital assets and the care of the minor child even if one party doesn't like it.

- lose the 20 lbs and if it doesn't catch her eye, it will catch someone else's.

When you get to a state of attractiveness that you could replace her with someone younger, prettier and more sexually responsive to you, that might make her bump up her own game and step up to the plate.

And if she doesn't, then it will be your choice whether you decide to suck it up and live with it, or move on and find someone else.

It's always better to have more options so in either case it's always best to improve your own own attractiveness and desirability first.

If no other woman would want you, then it's not really her fault for not being hot for you.

But if younger and prettier women are finding you desirable, then it is kind of on her and you have other options.

(PS. I'm not saying you are chopped liver or anything. I'm just saying it's in your best interests to be as sexually desirable as possible if you want to have sex... Whether that be with her or someone else if she chooses not to be sexual with you)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ooops, big typo. That should read, you do NOT need her approval and consent to divorce.

It only takes one person to end a marriage. The other person does not have to agree to it first.


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## 23cm (Dec 3, 2016)

Sorry you're here. Got an old tee shirt having been where you are, and a new one is on order. Einstein was right about doing the same thing over and over. 

While TAM can provide some help, there's a greater universe at the forum ILIASM.com (Stands for "I Live In A Sexless Marriage.)

Having quoted from Einstein, I'll finish with one from Woody Alley about facing two paths: "One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.” 

Cheers!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

JustMe1976 said:


> I'm new to this forum, and this is my first post.
> 
> Sit back...this might be a lengthy post.
> 
> ...


1. You said "Even oral sex was involved". The "Even" part sticks out to me that this is something so far out of the norm for you that it has become something akin to Narnia.

2. The link between oral sex and mouth/throat cancer is due to HPV. If both of you are clean from HPV, this is not a valid concern.

3. What is your initiation rate vs your success rate? 

4. Figure out if your main concern is quantity or quality. It sounds like both are in the toilet, but if you could improve one of those, which would it be?

5. Can you elaborate on why she "can't" do certain positions? Are there legitimate medical reasons? Weight related?

6. Here's the biggie--you're afraid to discuss this with her because you're afraid you will make it worse. You're already miserable--so what would you stand to lose? You don't have to cry and make a big production about it (better if you don't in fact), but you should be able to have a rational mature discussion over coffee with a person that you made a baby with. If you can't do that at a minimum, your situation is not likely to ever improve.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

JustMe1976 said:


> @anonmd...
> 
> I'm afraid that might make it worse.
> 
> @uhtred...


Of course it will make it worse. Your only hope of making it better is to first make it worse.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Congratulations, it appears from your post that your wife suffers from what we call in the medical community, "Not attracted to you at all anymore."

It's a serious disease that requires urgent treatment, but is very curable.

Treatment is as follows:

1. Look in the mirror. Have you let yourself go since you were having regular sex? If so, hit the gym, sharpen your wardrobe, style your hair. Pretend like you are going on a first date every time she sees you.

2. Are you boring? Boring guys have no life outside of their wife. They let their wife set their agenda and don't have any hobbies or passions outside of their relationship. What are your truly passionate about?

3. Have you settled? The most attractive thing about a man is his drive and determination. This breeds confidence. Are you still driven? Do you still have goals and dreams? Are you taking steps to achieve those goals and dreams? Is that obvious by talking to you?

4. Are you predictable? It certainly seems like your bedroom routine is. It's hard to get aroused when there is no mystery left. I suggest doing some crazy ass **** to rock the boat a little. Go skydiving, try the rodeo, train martial arts, learn how to Salsa dance....anything to break up your pattern and be surprising.

Oftentimes you attract women with these things and more, and then as you get comfortable you let them slip. Well it's no surprise if you were driven, had passions and went after them, had goals for your life, and did your best to impress with your looks, and that attracted your wife to you, that when you stopped doing these things she would be less attracted to you.

I can also tell you that nothing could be less attractive to a woman than a man with no other options. If you start taking the same steps that you would take to find a new sex partner, you will likely find that your wife finds you increasingly attractive.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

COguy said:


> Congratulations, it appears from your post that your wife suffers from what we call in the medical community, "Not attracted to you at all anymore."
> 
> It's a serious disease that requires urgent treatment, but is very curable.
> 
> ...


Dead on. Every word.

When you focus on maintaining a stable home and rearing children, you become like a butler/maid and babysitter.

Women typically are not sexually attracted to the maid or babysitter.

Think of what you would do to have a sex life if your wife were gone and out of the picture (ie hit the gym, update the wardrobe, hair style, get contacts/LASIK, start getting out pursuing fun things and hobbies etc) - then do that. 

Over time she may respond and start desiring you sexually more.

And if she doesn't, someone else will.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I could help but you won't listen. Look at @anonmd's posts. I destabilized and now have daily sex. But I am not a nice guy - read no more mr nice guy


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

JustMe1976 said:


> And even if I wanted to go that route (and I don't want to be another "divorce statistic"), I doubt she'd sign the paperwork anyway.


You'd rather live the rest of your life like this instead of being another statistic? You already are a statistic. You're among the percentage of people who stay in miserable marriages. I really can't imagine why you would want to stay with such a spouse.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

There are really just a couple of options if you want to stay married.

1. Figure out some way to enjoy a sexless or almost sexless life. It's very unlikely that her drive will come back without some major shock or change. However, many people can still have a loving, long-term marriage without a lot of intimate activity.

2. Take control and manipulate her into so she wants to have sex. This is being an alpha male. Read books like "No More Mr Nice Guy" and "Married Man's Sex Life Primer". It's about sexualizing your relationship. For example, you text her when you know she's with other people and send "we're going to F tonight". If she replies that she has other things to do, you send "don't care. we're going to F tonight." Obviously it still has to be consensual and you have to build up to it, but it's about making it clear one of the main purposes of you being in the relationship is so that you can have sex. If your parter is not onboard with that, you need to make it evident that the relationship will not continue.

But #2 isn't guaranteed to work. She may balk and decide she wants out. But then you're free to pursue your next relationship.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Three are not a lot of options if she really doesn't want sex, and there is nothing "wrong" with you causing her not to want sex.

You can live like monk

You can cheat

You can divorce

You can (worded nicely) threaten to divorce or do other things she doesn't want until she provides you with sex (that she won't enjoy, even if she pretends).


I don't like any of those options.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Manipulation works for some people, in mild cases, and up to a point. Mrs. OP, as described, is highly unlikely to fall for it IMHO.

She may be impacted by the status of their child. That's a Damocles sword hanging over any parents' head. She may resent OP for getting there. She may not have time to think about anything else. She may be looking at her life and regretting it all.

If the TAM peanut gallery thinks she's going to fall for the usual litany of diy books... I don't see it.

Start with serious IC for both and FC or MC as well. There aren't any diy solutions forthcoming.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I think the use of the term "manipulation" in terms of the OP looking towards self improvement is a bit misleading and perhaps downright erroneous. 

If someone's spouse has lost attraction to them because they have let themselves go and are now significant overweight, is it it manipulation if they lose weight and their spouse's attraction returns? 

Is that manipulation or is it correcting the problem? 

Now, attraction and desire can be much more complex than simply losing attraction due to weight gain, but my point is, if someone takes steps to correct the issues that have contributed to loss of attraction, then it is not manipulation.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

And it's not about getting her to fall for anything.

If he begins a path of self improvement and becomes a more attractive and engaging man, she is either going to respond to that or she won't.

If she doesn't respond to it, what is the worst that will happen? That she still doesn't want to have sex with him? 

But even if that's the case, now he is a better man and she doesn't want him, maybe someone else will and at that point he can decide whether to stay and suck it up or go and see what else is out there for him. 

Either way, she is not "falling" for anything. She either finds his changes appealing and attractive or she doesn't. 

If he becomes more fit, better dressed, better styled and groomed, more interesting and engaging; that is not manipulation. It is making positive changes in himself. 

If he gets a six pack and biceps, that's not something that will fool her or that she will "fall for." She will either dig the new look or she won't. 

If he hasn't flirted with her or seduced her or been sexually assertive or seductive with her and years and starts to do those things, that is not manipulating her, it is taking initiative.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's a lot more to a man than a six-pack and better clothes... Someone with the indicated history isn't going to fall for Leonardo DiCaprio, let alone husband 2.0.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

1. OP, You wrote "At the beginning of our marriage (and even when we were dating), the sex was much more frequent and varied. Even oral sex was involved. I think at one point early in our marriage we were doing the "sex every day" thing. We even had frequent sex during her pregnancy. "

That was because your relationship was in the new and exciting phase. That phase passed away after the child was born - and her energy and attention was turned away from you and towards the child. She has switched from the girlfriend excited to see you - to the mom who is co-parenting a child with you. Common occurrence in many marriages. This sole focus on the parenting role is possibly made even worse because of the special needs of your child. I would venture a guess that very little has been done by either of you to work on the man/woman - wife/husband roles and to keep that relationship alive and thriving. 

2. she could be so overwhelmed form dealing with a special needs child - not in just taking care of him but emotionally worrying about him - and seeking ways to best help him - that she has little to give you emotionally.

3. she could be dealing with depression. Most people have expectations and dreams for their children. Learning their child has special needs and issues can be scary and sometimes even somewhat of a disappointment. Dont get me wrong, its not that your child is not loved, cherished, and accepted just the way he is - but sometimes - the diagnosis of a child's special needs and issues can FEEL (meaning evoking emotions) like they got the news of the death of the "perfect" child they expected and dreamed about. To top it off - these very normal feelings can then make it worse by adding guilt for feeling that way. 

4. She probably suffers from a bad self image - from the weight gain. I would say that this is very likely - 99.9% chance she feels bad about her body image. But the pleasure she gets from eating may be keeping her from doing what she needs to do to change this issue. Feeling bad about yourself - usually translates into not feeling at all sexy!!!

5. She probably has deep seated resentment built up towards you - for a million things you did or did not do over the years. And she may have buried most of it inside and never bothered to deal head with you on with what ever it was that was bothering her. Resentment kills sexual desire - fast and sometimes for good!

6. Her hormones changed after she had a baby and she probably really does not desire sex all that much or very often. (like a million other women - this is very common). Pregnancy & nursing can really do a number on women's hormones - throwing them way out of wack. Some women naturally and easily return to normal after - others do not naturally recover and return to normal levels - and may need help with fixing them and getting them appropriately balanced again)

7. She may have a responsive sex drive - which is very different from a spontaneous sex drive that many men have. Recognizing the difference and acknowledging it can go along way in learning how to get the desire to respond.
The Arousal Principle: The Complexity And Simplicity Of Female Erotic Desire | HuffPost

8. She could very well be in peri-menopause and it has also messed with her hormones - but it sounds like this has been going on since the birth of your child. (See #5) If that's the case the peri-menopause could be making it worse. However, If it is her hormones being out of wack - it doesn't really matter if having a baby or if peri-menopause caused it - the solution is still getting them fixed and balanced again. There are natural ways - without doing hormonal therapy - but it will require doing some research and perhaps even finding a professional to help her. This is one of my favorite sites https://www.womentowomen.com/ Click on the health library and read through their articles. Yes - the site sales supplements and is connected to a clinic - but I ONLY go to their health library and view it as a good information source. You can google this topic and find many other sources too.

9. And a very important point and question to ponder - Your wife seems to not be seeking help for this issue - so I am guessing this is not really a serious enough problem for her to want to fix. Why isn't it a problem for her - that her husband is unhappy and dissatisfied with the marital relationship and feels that one of his important emotional and physical needs is not being met? Not being met - by the way - by the only person who by the expectations and agreement of a monogamous marriage vow or contract - is the only one who can meet these needs for you. I would bet she views sex as a selfish physical want only and views you as just one more bucket drainer - and her bucket is already bone dry. She may not understand that it is actually a physical act that when done with her - it fulfills one of your basic emotional needs of drawing you closer to her emotionally - in, of course, a very pleasurable physical way. She probably does not realize that instead of being a bucket drainer - intimate sexual activity togehter has the potential to fill not only your emotional basket, but hers too.

As long as she does not view this as a serious problem in your marriage - as long as it is only your problem and not hers - this problem will continue. This particular problem in your marriage is ONLY in her hands to fix. You can't fix it - because you can't fix her. You can try to motivate her to want to fix it - you can beg - you can barter - even threaten - but typically none of these things work very well or last very long. 

What does work? In broad terms - what works is an attitude of genuine love and respect between spouses which motivates both to actively seek to make sure that the emotional and physical needs of each other are being met - and motivates both to actively work TOGETHER to ensure that they both are fulfilled and happy within their marriage. This attitude begets open and honest communication - compromises - active participation by both - patience - forgiveness - and 100% commitment to each other.

In more specific terms - what works? If I had the answer to that - I would be selling it - and making millions of dollars! I don't - so I'm not! 

But I do recommend you try a real heart to heart conversation with your wife - and perhaps ask her the question from #9. Here is an article to help you in discussing sexual intimacy with a spouse as a need. Understanding Your Husband's Sexual Needs | Focus on the Family

One of my favorite sayings is - "A person can thrive and live without sex - but a monogamous marriage can not. " That's because sex is more than just a physical act - it is also an emotional and spiritual act that has the ability to connect and bind a couple together in love - in a way that no other act can. It also has the ability to tear a couple apart and destroy a marriage - if the couple does not view it and/or use its powers appropriately. 

How is sex being viewed and used in your marriage?


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

john117 said:


> There's a lot more to a man than a six-pack and better clothes... Someone with the indicated history isn't going to fall for Leonardo DiCaprio, let alone husband 2.0.


So what would you suggest? Don't ever try to improve yourself? Don't take control of your health? Don't take control of your looks? Don't take control of your social life? Don't become passionate about things you enjoy?

Keep plopping on the couch when you get home every night. Revolve 100% of your life around your spouse. Don't do anything for yourself. Accept that your wife will never want to have sex with you.

Man sounds like a pretty good death sentence.

Admittedly when I understood "the game" for what it was it was rather frightening. In order to want my partners to have sex with me I have to "do" something? They aren't just with me for my inner person? That's a hard pill to swallow when you grew up hearing about true love and all.

But that's life in the real world. If you want to f*ck, you have to be f*ckable. That goes for your wife or the cute redhead at the other end of the bar. No one wants to get with the guy who's put on 15 pounds and is eeking his way through life.

On the other hand, that information can be incredibly freeing and liberating. You hold all the keys to getting what you want in life. One of the greatest thing about being a man is that it doesn't matter what you look like. You can be the ugliest guy on the planet. If you have drive and passion and confidence you will have no problem with women. That means that your sexual satisfaction rests entirely on you. It's up to you to take steps in order to get what you want. You're not going to wake up tomorrow drowning in vaginas. But you can start on the path to take back control of your life and start setting up little victories. It doesn't take long to turn your circumstances around. It's not easy though.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

john117 said:


> There's a lot more to a man than a six-pack and better clothes... Someone with the indicated history isn't going to fall for Leonardo DiCaprio, let alone husband 2.0.


That is simply inaccurate thinking. 

Millions if men have thought that their wife was asexual and had lost all interest in sex only to find out she was having hot, wild porno sex in the local motel with a guy from the gym or her boss or a neighbor.

Turned out she was highly sexual ; just not with her husband.

In this case for all we know if Leonardo shows up at her door, she may drop her drawers on the spot and blow him right there on the front porch.

If husband 2.0 trips her trigger, she may react similarly to him as well.

As was mentioned in the post above, if a man wants to be sexually active, he must first be sexually desirable. If he has gotten fat and unkempt and lazy and is no longer engaging or seductive, he cannot expect anyone to have sex with him just because he exists.

If a guy is as desirable as he can be and she still does not want him, then he has done his job and it is on her. 

If he is desirable to other women, then he has the option to remain in the sexless marriage, negotiate an open marriage or leave and take up with someone else.

But if he is not sexually desirable to begin with, then it is on him and he cannot expect his wife to want to have sex with him. 

If he improves himself and does become attractive, that is not manipulation or trickery. It is correcting what is holding him back.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Millions if men have thought that their wife was asexual and had lost all interest in sex only to find out she was having hot, wild porno sex in the local motel with a guy from the gym or her boss or a neighbor.
> 
> Turned out she was highly sexual ; just not with her husband.


I agree with what you said about making sure you take care of yourself. If you look in the mirror and see lots of flaws that would turn off most people, you shouldn't be surprised you're not having sex. But the case where the wife has hot sex with a *new* person is about having sex with a *new* person. Very likely, if she married the guy from the gym, her boss, or neighbor, her sex drive would fade as the years went on even if the guy was exactly the same the whole time.

That's the challenge in most long-term relationships: All the work is on the H to keep intimacy alive. It's not enough to just be a good contributor, stay in shape, and maintain a healthy love. The H has to actively try to woo his W on a regular basis, kind of like he was trying to pick her up in a bar. If you like that kind of activity, then you may enjoy having to woo her for decade after decade. But if it's not who you are, then it feels like you're pretending to be someone else to trick her into having sex she doesn't want to have. If you want sex and intimacy to just be a comfortable, simple, normal part of your relationship that doesn't feel like work or manipulation, then it's dependent on her also wanting sex on regular basis.

So for the OP, your wife, like many wives, sounds like she needs to be woo-ed as if she was a stranger for her to feel passionate desire. It will never be a day-to-day normal thing for her. If you want her to be passionate, it's on you to figure out how to make her passionate.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

General advise is great, but the devil is always in the details.

A doe eyed, unsophisticated spouse may fall for it, but do you think a high achieving professional in his or her 50's or someone caring for a child with health concerns is going to be swayed?

One does what one needs to do for an innate reason, not because of some nefarious goal related to their spouse. 

My suggestion has always been to root cause the situation to the best of one's ability. If its a mild case such methods work without needing to understand the root cause. But generally speaking, by the time one makes it to tam it's too late for DIY solutions.

Also, contrary to popular belief, some people are "perfect enough", and the delta between current state and ideal state is 15-20 lb. If 15-20 lb is what's causing one's spouse to sexually shut down, then one has deeper issues. And, of course, if said no desire spouse isn't exactly supermodel variety to begin with.

I don't think many people understand what causes zombie marriages. It's not just about physical attraction. If it were, given the percentage of obese people in this country we'd have gone extinct long ago. It's all about "what's in it for me", rather than understanding that marriage or LTR is really gestalt, more than the sum of its parts. Time and time again we see spouses that would rather divorce than take their marriage seriously and only reluctantly change their mind after an ultimatum. Does this sound someone you want to have as partner for life?

I'm all for self improvement and live by it. But I'm under no illusions that it will yield fruit for everyone. OP has been in a multi-year zombie marriage, wife preoccupied with child's issues, self image, menopause, and a bunch of other things and the first suggestion is to lift weights, buy a better cologne, and dress nice?

If it were me I'd be looking for intervention in every aspect of the issues facing the family, not for a quick way to get more sex. The family isn't operating in a vacuum.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

John you're confusing being the best version of yourself with manipulation or nefarious purposes.

You're confusing losing 15-20 pounds with the state of being that encourages gaining 15-20 pounds.

No one walks up to a new girl, talks about how they come home from work and just take care of their kids, they aren't really concerned about their appearance, don't really have any direction in life, and then drops her panties later.

As a man, you attract women by having aspirations. Caring about your appearance, having confidence, having direction in your life. Living with a purpose, having passions, being confident, etc etc.

These are things that attract women to men. They are the T&A of female attraction. You can't slack off on all these things and still expect to attract anyone. That is true for all women, all relationships.

It's just biology, and it's naive to pretend that it doesn't exist and that we shouldn't be trying as men to be the best version of ourself at all times.

Complacency is the bedroom killer. The same complacency that has men gaining weight, slacking on their appearance, not doing what they need to be successful in their career, not pushing themselves in all areas of their life.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

John you are taking this too literally and you have to start somewhere.

No one is suggesting he can buy some new jeans fri night and by Saturday they will be swinging from the chandeliers.

Yes this situation may take some serious therapy to completely fix, but you have to start somewhere and getting yourself polished up and looking and smelling as sharp as you can is the logical first step.

And if it does come down to needing professional therapy, that time and money will be wasted if someone is fat and slovenly. 

Therapy does not making anyone horny. All the therapy in the world will not make someone desire someone that is undesirable to them.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Minor terminology difference... 

You (anyone) are not out to "get a girl". You already have "a girl". It's called your wife. After 20 or 30 years together she's not Bo Derek anymore than you're GQ cover material. 

I'm not talking being complacent. At 57 I'm at the top of my game, as is my wife. I make top money, I'm the best father I know, have successful kids, all the good stuff. Dress sharp - if a bit too academic - and generally I'm the life of the party wherever I go. 

Ah, these 15 - 20 lb... Yea, well. I don't have the benefit of working from home so that I can run on the treadmill for 3 hours a day. I do cycle about 100 miles a week, eat healthy... Let's see your average 57 year old cycle 30 miles in an afternoon...

We're well into "law of diminishing returns" territory here. I could lose 115 lb and still not make it work. Why? Because I've done the root cause and it boiled down to a number of issues that are well past DIY, even with my psychology skills. And even then, I'm not sure we'll get anywhere by year's end, 15 lb or 115 lb less. We've started counseling but it's not likely to yield spectacular and instant results, and for all I care, it will be a Pyrrhic victory in any case. 

OP is in far more trouble, mostly because of the uncertainty with the kid's situation and age. We can talk improvement all we want but that's not what his issue really is. 

I just got out of 3-legged 5-why root cause analysis class. At some point it has to be done on people - too easy to hide behind "feelings" and "sex rank" and all that. People are reluctant to go this deep, maybe professional intervention could help.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

It always amuses me when a LTR problem attempts to be solved "by getting abs". It shows an utter lack of understanding of mature men and women and LTR dynamics.

But hey who doesn't like abs? Go for it but your problems won't be even remotely addressed by it. In fact, with your wife's weight gain she'll probably resent you even more if you get ripped. But you'll surely "get the babes" ha ha 


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

TheTruthHurts said:


> It always amuses me when a LTR problem attempts to be solved "by getting abs". It shows an utter lack of understanding of mature men and women and LTR dynamics.
> 
> But hey who doesn't like abs? Go for it but your problems won't be even remotely addressed by it. In fact, with your wife's weight gain she'll probably resent you even more if you get ripped. But you'll surely "get the babes" ha ha
> 
> ...


It always amuses me when men give each other advise to improve themselves and people attempt to simplify that by focusing on 6-packs and what clothes you wear.

The decision to have a 6-pack is not like a button you push. In order to have a 6-pack you have to have dedication, discipline, commitment, delayed gratification, etc. Having a six pack is not about looking hot, it's a statement about how you are going to live your life. That's attractive to women. And if your wife isn't attracted to you when you are the best version of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, then you have a problem that won't be fixed through counseling. In that situation, you are already doing the steps you need to move on from the relationship in the most healthy way possible.

I'm not sure why that message ruffles so many feathers. Especially when the alternative is to go through counseling and just hope and pray that your wife gets turned on by you again.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

COguy said:


> It always amuses me when men give each other advise to improve themselves and people attempt to simplify that by focusing on 6-packs and what clothes you wear.
> 
> The decision to have a 6-pack is not like a button you push. In order to have a 6-pack you have to have dedication, discipline, commitment, delayed gratification, etc. Having a six pack is not about looking hot, it's a statement about how you are going to live your life. That's attractive to women. And if your wife isn't attracted to you when you are the best version of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, then you have a problem that won't be fixed through counseling. In that situation, you are already doing the steps you need to move on from the relationship in the most healthy way possible.
> 
> *I'm not sure why that message ruffles so many feathers. *Especially when the alternative is to go through counseling and just hope and pray that your wife gets turned on by you again.


Because they don't want to do it.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

The fact that all that stuff increases self confidence is the most important and attractive. 


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

COguy said:


> It always amuses me when men give each other advise to improve themselves and people attempt to simplify that by focusing on 6-packs and what clothes you wear.
> 
> The decision to have a 6-pack is not like a button you push. In order to have a 6-pack you have to have dedication, discipline, commitment, delayed gratification, etc. Having a six pack is not about looking hot, it's a statement about how you are going to live your life. That's attractive to women. And if your wife isn't attracted to you when you are the best version of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, then you have a problem that won't be fixed through counseling. In that situation, you are already doing the steps you need to move on from the relationship in the most healthy way possible.
> 
> I'm not sure why that message ruffles so many feathers. Especially when the alternative is to go through counseling and just hope and pray that your wife gets turned on by you again.


We're going thru counseling right now. Appearance fixes and superficial behavioral changes don't address deep down issues. It's that simple.

We can pretend they do, it's a lot more fun lifting weights than talking to a therapist I suppose


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Because they don't want to do it.


Right, jld. I'll get a lot more chicks if I looked like Jack Lalanne...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It's a start, john.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

It sounds like she has a fair amount of depression. The weight is a dead giveaway.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

And just what are these deep down issues that you need to address in order to for your partner to want to have sex with you???

When a chick goes home with someone she just met mean that he doesn't have any deep down issues?

Or does it mean she found him sexy?

And the flip flop of that argument, does that mean that everyone that has deep down issues in a sexless marriage?

If we want to get real carried away, is there a magazine called "issue-Free" that features centerfolds and models of all ages, shapes, sizes and levels of attractiveness that don't have issues.

People get down with people that they find attractive and that turn them on. There are people that have issues dripping out their ears that get laid like tile.

And there are people that don't really have any issues at all.....other than they can't get laid at all. 

Now obviously relationship issues and psychological issues and a whole host of medical issues can effect someone's sexuality

But my point is people typically have sex with someone typically because they want to and are attracted to them. 

And if someone is not attractive to them, they won't want to. 

And either way it is whether they have deep down issues or not.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think an issue is that people have finite time. If the choice is "be very fit" or "don't be very fit", then its obvious. But as you say, becoming fit takes effort and more importantly *time*. There are far more things to do with ones life than there is time to do them, so people have to pick and choose their priorities. 

You can work out - or learn a language, or hike in the mountains, or learn to fly an airplane, or spend time with friends, or run for political office - or any of thousands of other things. 








COguy said:


> It always amuses me when men give each other advise to improve themselves and people attempt to simplify that by focusing on 6-packs and what clothes you wear.
> 
> The decision to have a 6-pack is not like a button you push. In order to have a 6-pack you have to have dedication, discipline, commitment, delayed gratification, etc. Having a six pack is not about looking hot, it's a statement about how you are going to live your life. That's attractive to women. And if your wife isn't attracted to you when you are the best version of yourself physically, mentally, emotionally, socially, then you have a problem that won't be fixed through counseling. In that situation, you are already doing the steps you need to move on from the relationship in the most healthy way possible.
> 
> I'm not sure why that message ruffles so many feathers. Especially when the alternative is to go through counseling and just hope and pray that your wife gets turned on by you again.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think an issue is that people have finite time. If the choice is "be very fit" or "don't be very fit", then its obvious. But as you say, becoming fit takes effort and more importantly *time*. There are far more things to do with ones life than there is time to do them, so people have to pick and choose their priorities.
> 
> You can work out - or learn a language, or hike in the mountains, or learn to fly an airplane, or spend time with friends, or run for political office - or any of thousands of other things.


The thing about fitness is that, like many other things, there are diminishing returns. Going from total couch potato to putting in 30 min, 3x/ week is really easy time wise, and give a great return.

Jumping to 60 min a few times a week is a little harder, and is better, but gives less incremental return. 

Jumping to 60 min, 6x/week can be difficult, and doesn't give as much as previous increments.

And so on. 

The point is, if you think you need to be Mr. Olympia, it's easy to get discouraged, because that's a full life commitment which will consume your every nonworking, waking hour. 

but...

If you realize that going from being completely unattractive, to better looking than most, takes relatively little time and effort, then you realize there's really no excuse. Just being firmer than the average American couch potato puts you ahead of the pack, and it takes little effort. Saying there's not enough time, at least to make the first level of visible improvement, is a total cop out. 

Oh, and even that minor amount of exercise makes you feel better ... and more confident. It's bonuses all around--for you _and _potential partners.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Like I said...it's all about self confidence. That sh1t is sexy!


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Like I said...it's all about self confidence. That sh1t is sexy!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Exactly. That's what some are missing. Bill Gates, Bill Mahr, Jackson Pollock, Jonah Hill... I doubt they're worried about their abs.

Attractiveness can come from anything - if you have skill, passion, create interest, are confident, you'll be attractive at any age. Believe it - people get hit on in assisted living places.

I've got nothing against working out - I do - but because I'm exceptional at other things, my time is better spent on those areas.

Anyway it won't really matter if my W isn't into what I offer.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

john117 said:


> We're going thru counseling right now. Appearance fixes and superficial behavioral changes don't address deep down issues. It's that simple.
> 
> We can pretend they do, it's a lot more fun lifting weights than talking to a therapist I suppose


Well I have two comments to that.

One, is that your appearance is generally an overflow of your inner "issues". Often guys fall in the trap in marriage that they start feeling content. They lose passion for their lives, lose passion for their careers, lose passion for their appearance. The superficial is an overflow of what's going on inside. Complacency.

Focusing on appearance is usually a springboard for getting your life back on track. Which is why every men's self-help book, group, internet advice whatever starts with "get in the gym." Because when you start to take control of your body you take control of your mind and your life again. Exercise improve your T, which also improves your motivation and drive in other areas of your life. Plus it builds confidence which allows you to make better decisions at home. Those aren't superficial changes.

Second, as was pointed out, women get aroused too. So the least you could do is make it easier for your wife to find you attractive. Chris Brown has a ton of deep seated inner issues, doesn't seem to keep him from getting laid....so while counseling might be necessary to fix your marriage, I don't think it will do much for your bedroom life.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Exactly. That's what some are missing. Bill Gates, Bill Mahr, Jackson Pollock, Jonah Hill... I doubt they're worried about their abs.
> 
> Attractiveness can come from anything - if you have skill, passion, create interest, are confident, you'll be attractive at any age. Believe it - people get hit on in assisted living places.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I have many great traits and abilities that create attraction (especially confidence), and never had trouble finding dates. And I even have abs - it's just that they've never been _visible_, despite being fairly fit and not being overweight! My wife is still hot for me after 17 years, so something is working.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

COguy said:


> Well I have two comments to that.
> 
> One, is that your appearance is generally an overflow of your inner "issues". Often guys fall in the trap in marriage that they start feeling content. They lose passion for their lives, lose passion for their careers, lose passion for their appearance. The superficial is an overflow of what's going on inside. Complacency.
> 
> ...


After 50, appearance is largely a function of how many hours a day you're working out or genetics, not anything related to "inner state". 

This obviously assumes a reasonable baseline, ie not 300 lb to begin with and not People of Walmart fashion sense. Most people are "reasonably decent looking" within the range of likely people they're interacting with. 

I'm afraid people look at the low picking fruit solution. In some cases it exists. In others, it don't. All the Brooks Brothers suits in the world and all the BMW SUV's in the world and all the Old Spice in the world won't fix deep down resentment or indifference. I wish they did.

And I won't even mention mental health issues or skeletons in the closet...


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

John, looks like you're in a bad spot in your life. You've taken everything I've said over 5-6 posts about working on you as a person and boiled it down to suits, clothes, and cars.

Meanwhile you're admittedly in a sexless marriage and dealing with a bunch of personal and relationship issues. I hope you're able to figure your **** out and start living the life you dream of.

"When the wise man points at the moon, the dummy stares at the finger."


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

COguy said:


> John, looks like you're in a bad spot in your life. You've taken everything I've said over 5-6 posts about working on you as a person and boiled it down to suits, clothes, and cars.
> 
> Meanwhile you're admittedly in a sexless marriage and dealing with a bunch of personal and relationship issues. I hope you're able to figure your **** out and start living the life you dream of.
> 
> "When the wise man points at the moon, the dummy stares at the finger."


The majority of people stuck in such marriages are facing such serious issues. 

That's the fallacy of DIY and pop psychology books. Once you start digging deeper then root causes begin to appear. Most people can't root cause their misbehaving lawn mower, let alone their marriage.

I live my dream, incidentally. 35 years ago all I had was a suitcase of clothes and a suitcase of books. I did pretty well all things considered. Some better than others.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Here are some examples of alternate forms of intimacy that can help you feel loved and relaxed that do not involve sex:
> 
> Backrub
> Exercising together
> ...


You're going out of your way to help, and that's commendable. But if this were me, NONE of those would replace sex. To me, sex is the only intimacy I need.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

One problem with these kinds of threads is that much of the advice seems to be more relevant to short term or initial attraction situations. I'm sure if you're hitting the dating scene, then making changes like being in shape, dressing nicer, looking wealthier, etc. will greatly increase your chances of success. But is that kind of advice relevant to a multi-decades relationship? Or is it a good path for success in maintaining passion in the relationship going forwards for decades?

The easiest way to ensure you have passionate sex throughout your life is to stay in a relationship up until the passion fades and then go into a new relationship. You would stay in that new-relationship state which always has great sex. But then you lose out on the deep, emotional, strong family connection you build from being with someone for your whole life.

From many of these threads, I'm not sure it's even possible to rebuild passion after it fades so that it's maintained for decades. It seems we just see small improvements for a short time and then things slide back. Maybe not all the way back, but I can't think of many (any?) instances where a W went from total disinterest in sex to passionate sex from then on.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

John--it's good to hear your wife opted for counseling.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

wilson said:


> One problem with these kinds of threads is that much of the advice seems to be more relevant to short term or initial attraction situations. I'm sure if you're hitting the dating scene, then making changes like being in shape, dressing nicer, looking wealthier, etc. will greatly increase your chances of success. But is that kind of advice relevant to a multi-decades relationship? Or is it a good path for success in maintaining passion in the relationship going forwards for decades?
> 
> The easiest way to ensure you have passionate sex throughout your life is to stay in a relationship up until the passion fades and then go into a new relationship. You would stay in that new-relationship state which always has great sex. But then you lose out on the deep, emotional, strong family connection you build from being with someone for your whole life.
> 
> From many of these threads, I'm not sure it's even possible to rebuild passion after it fades so that it's maintained for decades. It seems we just see small improvements for a short time and then things slide back. Maybe not all the way back, but I can't think of many (any?) instances where a W went from total disinterest in sex to passionate sex from then on.


I know 2 couples who still have passionate sex 15 years in.

In both cases the guys are old school dudes. They do what they say they are going to do, they lead, they make decisions, they run that border between being too much of an a-hole and not enough of one. Basically, they are still attractive, and if their wives stop having sex with them, there wouldn't be a shortage of women to take their place.

And that's been my philosophy for some time now. Being married isn't really a choice if you can't do any better. If you could go out and replace your wife with something better, then sticking around is an act of love right?

I want to be the best version of myself, because it's the best thing for me and it is also attractive.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

COguy said:


> I know 2 couples who still have passionate sex 15 years in.
> 
> In both cases the guys are old school dudes. They do what they say they are going to do, they lead, they make decisions, they run that border between being too much of an a-hole and not enough of one. Basically, they are still attractive, and if their wives stop having sex with them, there wouldn't be a shortage of women to take their place.


I'm glad it's working for them. I'm sure there are marriages which have maintained the passion throughout their marriage. But those guys aren't in the situation we often see here, which is:

- Good sex at the start
- Life happens, passion fades, W becomes totally disinterested in sex
- Now what?

At that point, is being a bad boy the right solution? Who knows? I wish we had more real-life stories so we know what really works for a multi-decades long solution to lost passion.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

john117 said:


> Right, jld. I'll get a lot more chicks if I looked like Jack Lalanne...


I think that was taken in Mr. LaLane's 80s. If I look like that in my 80s, I'll be on top of the world (doubt I'll dress that way, though).


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

wilson said:


> the easiest way to ensure you have passionate sex throughout your life is to stay in a relationship up until the passion fades and then go into a new relationship. You would stay in that new-relationship state which always has great sex.


amen!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Jayg14 said:


> I think that was taken in Mr. LaLane's 80s. If I look like that in my 80s, I'll be on top of the world (doubt I'll dress that way, though).


My maternal grandfather (John Sr) looked like that at 80. He passed on from Alzheimer's. My grandma looked EXACTLY like the wicked witch of the west, but was an awesome lady who raised 7 kids thru WW2. She passed on at 103. 

Looks aren't everything, believe me.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@COguy you crack me up. Seriously. I probably have socks under my bed for the past 15 years. That's a blink of an eye in a LTR.

If you never had passion in a relationship I don't think you can create it.

If you did, I believe in many cases you can rekindle it. It just takes effort - a real desire to connect, listen, value and appreciate your SO. Physical appearance really is only icing on the cake. It's not a primary driver of passion in a LTR.

Speaking as someone in a passionate LTR - 35 years - with kids (many), jobs, illness in extended family,general life. These are the things that pull a couple away and allow them to drift. But you can also reconnect and recommit and rebuild passion if you had it. After so many decades it's a mature love and passion where appearance is almost not relevant. If you watched Avatar it's more like that - you "see" each other and it isn't physical at all

That's what John has been missing and rock hard abs would not cause his SO to "see" him.
@john117 I would have thought the deadline would have passed by now. Have things changed?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Yea, she agreed to my option 1 of counseling till year's end. At that point, assuming Dr Jamie doesn't fire us we'll reassess. 

At some point you need to know when to throw in the towel and move on. To a great extent that is why I'm such a fan of professional intervention in such cases.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I recently got married (in May) and if sex were looked at by my husband as something to ''get'' off of me, or from me, that probably would lead to vanilla or non-existent sex. lol The title of your thread sort of tells me your mindset. Not that your wife isn't responsible for her part, because she is. It take TWO to have a great sex life, not you begging, chasing, hoping, trying, and her holding it over your head like a carrot. It seems very unbalanced, but I guarantee...she wants to have an orgasm. 

So maybe shift how you view sex ...it's not something to ''get'' from your wife. It's something to share and enjoy...together. 

I do agree with some others though, that if you both try your best to make things work, and your sex life still sucks, then it might be time to move on. Depends on if you can see yourself living a relatively sexless life, you know? Sorry you're here.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> You're going out of your way to help, and that's commendable. But if this were me, NONE of those would replace sex. *To me, sex is the only intimacy I need.*


For some relationships it has to be more than just sex, or one partner can start to feel used. Particularly if there are any self esteem issues during the inevitable effects of getting old start to show. At that point intimacy becomes about exercising one's vulnerability towards self development in the relationship. 

If you "only need sex," then that is a form of codependency that inhibits vulnerability and self development.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> That's the fallacy of DIY and pop psychology books. Once you start digging deeper then root causes begin to appear. Most people can't root cause their misbehaving lawn mower, let alone their marriage.



A misbehaving lawn mower is often the result of a neglected yard.










...if you mowed more often one would see those concrete blocks hidden in the grass just in front of you as well as the roll of barbed wire...

But some people will just insist on mowing until something misbehaves!


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> If you "only need sex," then that is a form of codependency that inhibits vulnerability and self development.


1) Please elaborate
2) I'm sure I'd start to miss other things that couples have in relationships, but without sex, they won't register, because I'm wondering why I'm in this place.
3) Vulnerability may not be such a great thing for men: https://therationalmale.com/2014/11/23/vulnerability/.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> 1) Please elaborate
> 2) I'm sure I'd start to miss other things that couples have in relationships, but without sex, they won't register, because I'm wondering why I'm in this place.
> *3) Vulnerability may not be such a great thing for men: *https://therationalmale.com/2014/11/23/vulnerability/.












Vulnerability is about having the courage to place yourself in harms way for the overall good of your family.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Vulnerability is about having the courage to place yourself in harms way for the overall good of your family.


Thank you for responding. That's not the vulnerability I thought of. Now, what about this co-dependency stuff? And is that a picture from Christopher Nolan's Dunkirk?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

*Deidre* said:


> I recently got married .... but I guarantee...she wants to have an orgasm


!This plus!

I've been married for 23 years to a wonderful man, generous and kind. Manly but modern helpful. However in my recent inner trip I've discovered many truths about marriage and women in their late 40's to 50's. I always thought sex was ok and enjoyed it enough but I also never really advocated or shared with my husband any short comings. This meant that sometimes I had an orgasm sometimes not. Most wee satisfactory. I sometimes faked it cause I didn't want him to feel bad. Then I started down a path and as I discovered things I talked to my husband a little more and to women I knew. Many women are kinda in the same boat. While many of us run our household are independent and strong to the outside world we still expect or accept that hubby runs the bedroom. We are also shy about talking about especially if not asked but even if asked there is shyness and sometimes embarrassment. But the part where I started talking to my husband kinda taking the reigns a little though still like him leading, well then I started having much BETTER orgasms more often. To be honest I never even knew what I was missing. He is a generous lover and I am now more honest about if I've finished or not. It has taken quite a bit to adjust mentally to letting him spend more time on me then I do on him but he has benefitted as well. I wake up thinking about sex, I go to bed thinking about sex. We have sex as often as his back and penis allow which is twice a day right now on vacation and 5-10 times during the week. It definitely helps that our child just left the nest. He already was filling my emotional needs. Now he's created a monster who wants to be fed always.

If you get the chance to be intimate with your wife start putting a lot of effort into quality orgasms for her and you'll get what your looking for unless she is emotionally drained or turned off due to built up resentment. Don't look to men or porn for ideas on great sex for women. 

I always read here on the forums people saying get abs or dress nice but in LTR eventually this is just superficial. For men looks maybe important but most women after 14 years care more about how they are treated, taken care of and the overall relationship. My husband is overweight, so am I but we have great sex and a great relationship.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

anastasia6 said:


> I sometimes faked it cause I didn't want him to feel bad. Then I started down a path and as I discovered things I talked to my husband a little more and to women I knew. Many women are kinda in the same boat. While many of us run our household are independent and strong to the outside world we still expect or accept that hubby runs the bedroom. We are also shy about talking about especially if not asked but even if asked there is shyness and sometimes embarrassment. But the part where I started talking to my husband kinda taking the reigns a little though still like him leading, well then I started having much BETTER orgasms more often.


If you had not had your personal epiphany, do you think your H could have brought this change about all by himself? Think about the time before you went down the path. What could he have done to awaken your desire if you were in the earlier mental state? If he focused more on your O's, would that have been what you needed?

Basically, I'm wondering if this change could have happened if you didn't start walking down the path by yourself at first.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ill use this to add 

Wilson you asked about more focused on my O's. Thing was he was focused on that just wasn't great at it. Don't think he even really knew. But had he ever truly hit the good spot he'd have known a difference. I did have O's before but they were mild and not consistent.

I read somewhere for men O's are fairly consistent with a range of 15-30 on an imaginary pleasure scale. But women's are from 1-100. you get inconsistent 5's or an occasional 10 late at night when you're tired not gonna be a motivator. But you Consistently cross the 40-50 line well no you've turned me into a teenage boy and I don't have a refractory period.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

anastasia6 said:


> ill use this to add
> 
> Wilson you asked about more focused on my O's. Thing was he was focused on that just wasn't great at it. Don't think he even really knew. But had he ever truly hit the good spot he'd have known a difference. I did have O's before but they were mild and not consistent.
> 
> I read somewhere for men O's are fairly consistent with a range of 15-30 on an imaginary pleasure scale. But women's are from 1-100. you get inconsistent 5's or an occasional 10 late at night when you're tired not gonna be a motivator. But you Consistently cross the 40-50 line well no you've turned me into a teenage boy and I don't have a refractory period.


Crap on my phone it showed a double post so I edited it to the above.

I'll try to do the first post again.

To answer could he had brought about this change.

I think he could have successfully helped nudge to this change. He could have been better at sex. He could have either been the mystical guy who knows just what a girl wants without any actually information. Or he could have read things and tried things. I recommend female sources. Men and Porn aren't very accurate from my limited experience. He wasn't a slacker. He would rub my shoulders, kneed my breasts give me oral sex and then missionary. Well turns out the shoulders don't do anything for me, by breasts like light pinching/nibbling, sometimes oral is good sometimes it doesn't feel right and missionary leaves out a very important player my G-spot (and later found out leaves out my a*ss.) But we also used to go to bed at 10 or 11 which is our bedtime cause we are tired. Now we go to bed at 9 to 9:30 cause we like sex more than TV and that way we have an hour or so to enjoy.

My husband is kinda old fashion, stand up guy (doesn't masterbate, or course neither do I). So I was shy about taking him to Fifty shades of grey (and the internet said it made men feel inadequate), I was shy about wanting to try a toy (again men sometimes feel inadequate), Later I was shy about wanting to try anal and then about liking it. But he was a champ. I started with lube (awesome addition) and liberator pillows due to his back problems (found the G-spot). When I was low on a specific type of lube cause I gave our spare to a friend to try he headed to the sex store (I know he didn't want to go) to see if maybe they carried it. I texted him and said bring me a surprise well he brought home a toy I had really wanted but was still shy about telling him I wanted. So things started moving along and getting better. One key is that really good O's involve more than one sensitive area. Thing is once things started rolling he was definately involved and still leads. 

Now all that being said. I had to do some of the mental part. I was always concerned about if he was having fun or if I was taking too long during oral. I was worried about him feeling bad if I didn't O or worse inadequate. I love him and would never want that to make him feel bad. I also had never had a really good O (married at 23 and teenage boys just aren't that great you know). I didn't even know that there was other options. From my talks with the few women friends I have that seems to be the consensus we read books that talk about really good O's but it's like prince charming in real life it just isn't like that. We had sex 1-2 times a week or less. I enjoyed myself enough but it also wasn't something I'd put on my schedule and look forward to like dessert. Was I disinterested not really. My age/women / friends we may run our households, be outspoken, generally take a stance but we are often still old fashion in that we expect the men to be in charge in the bedroom and we are shy about our pleasure and worry about our spouses feelings and pleasure (for some it is just another box to check). I can say my husband never begged for sex and I didn't specifically turn him down. But his advances were sometimes very light like a touch on my shoulder. If I didn't roll over he'd give up so not a specific turn down. Had he pressed more I'd have had sex with him. And when I say pressed more I don't mean be forceful or an *******, I mean had he leaned over and kissed me and made it clear he wanted it enough. But now I look forward to each evening. I only worry about hurting his back now.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> Thank you for responding. That's not the vulnerability I thought of. Now, what about this co-dependency stuff? And is that a picture from Christopher Nolan's Dunkirk?


Ahh... The vulnerability you may have been thinking about would be that of an emotionally needy man that is very open about those emotional needs in a relationship? That is not vulnerability, it is codependency. Vulnerability in this situation would be an emotionally needy man (as in needing a lot of sex) "letting go of those needs" and doing whatever it takes to make his wife feel protected and loved in the relationship. 

As for the photo, yes.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vulnerability has a tendency to turn into futility, at least in TAM threads. You're basically saying that your needs don't matter by "letting go of those needs" as long as the "wife is protected" (from who?) "and loved in the relationship" (exactly what relationship we talking about here?"...


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Ahh... The vulnerability you may have been thinking about would be that of an emotionally needy man that is very open about those emotional needs in a relationship? That is not vulnerability, it is codependency. Vulnerability in this situation would be an emotionally needy man (as in needing a lot of sex) "letting go of those needs" and doing whatever it takes to make his wife feel protected and loved in the relationship.
> 
> As for the photo, yes.


Thank you. SO if I understand it right, I should forget about having sex in a relationship, being ready to step in front of a mugger/thief/car to protect her, and then I'll get the sex I want? I'll keep that in mind if I get into another relationship and (possibly) marry.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

john117 said:


> Vulnerability has a tendency to turn into futility, at least in TAM threads. You're basically saying that your needs don't matter by "letting go of those needs" as long as the "wife is protected" (from who?) "and loved in the relationship" (exactly what relationship we talking about here?"...




It's a very fine line but you're right about the TAM stories. Could be the SO or could be the OP's approach or both.

I'm very direct and I guess I can be intimidating. I don't mean to be I'm just intense when I'm directing my passion at someone. Direct frontal assault type of approach I guess - I always assumed indirect was confusing and sent mixed signals, whereas direct was preferable. But on a more thorough assessment, direct can be hard to deal with because there is no cover for the other if I'm better at arguing my point. Anyway that was just for context in terms of my approach.

Because of who I am, the changes I've made that have been most successful include continuing with my persistence, but with more space between addressing it, more "white space" in the discussion, generally "less" - less intensity. That allows my w to respond a bit more.

Note that this isn't everyday interactions - that would be exhausting - but rather important relationship issues that won't go away like the OP

So yesterday in the car I brought up an issue - why won't my w let me go down on her. She does bj's several times a week but I've only been able to go down on her a few times in over 3 decades. Her response was she feels pressured - and I burst out laughing! It's hardly pressure when you consider we've been together several decades. And I followed up with - of course you feel pressured because I'm pressuring you. What is the issue? Talk to me. I don't understand. Is it a dark passenger (catholic upbringing)?

So I persisted but respectfully. I just was waiting for the answer. And maybe because of the conversation flow and context - in the car so couldn't lead to sex, acknowledging the pressure but indicating I felt it justified, and conveying that I just want to understand. Really I think that's the difference. These factors matter to her (seem irrelevant to me in my past less enlightened approach).

Guess what. Not past Catholicism. Not aversion. Not that she didn't enjoy it. Not that she was too sensitive. No reason I could possibly have guessed.

She doesn't find her lady parts attractive. Doh! What? Does she think hers is ugly and should look different? No - no vajayjays are attractive.

Ha ha I laughed. Wow - who would have thought. So I said "well how about accepting that I find it very attractive?" That made her think. She had to get out of her own head. So I said (knowingly minimizing her objections) "we'll work in that and get past it." With a smile. She was still uncertain and vulnerable. But I know intellectually she knew that was the right answer. After all she loves my junk.

So I've lightly teased her about her beautiful parts and how we'll make it up even prettier. And we both laugh and hug and she conveys that she's apprehensive and I convey that I am certain we'll get past this eventually now that we both understand what we're working through.

So..,, for me it was context, tone, persistence... for others it might be more persistence or stronger tone or whatever.

It's very hard to read your SO's mind and understand when there's a real problem with you or a problem within them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Jayg14 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you for responding. That's not the vulnerability I thought of. Now, what about this co-dependency stuff? And is that a picture from Christopher Nolan's Dunkirk?
> ...


I don't think you are using the term "codependent" correctly. Maybe you mean-- dependent.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> Vulnerability has a tendency to turn into futility, at least in TAM threads. You're basically saying that your needs don't matter by "letting go of those needs" as long as the "wife is protected" (from who?) "and loved in the relationship" (exactly what relationship we talking about here?"...


 @john117 very correct. 

OP last seen over a week ago...


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> @john117 very correct.
> 
> OP last seen over a week ago...


You realize your advice doesn't make much sense, right?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> You realize your advice doesn't make much sense, right?


Power of being vulnerable: https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Power of being vulnerable: https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability


The way I understood your definition of vulnerable is forgetting about having sex in a relationship, being ready to step in front of a mugger/thief/car to protect her, and then I'll get the sex I want. You didn't refute, so I took that as your definition.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Power of being vulnerable: https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability


Read the transcript. Your definition and hers aren't the same.

yours: don't worry about sex, worry about stepping in front of a bus for her
hers: ask for help when you're sick, initiate sex, knowing you might be rejected.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> Read the transcript. Your definition and hers aren't the same.


LOOK HERE:










LAZARUS ON THE POWER OF HEROIC VULNERABILITY:

"I'm not a real hero. The real heroes are the men and women in uniform that watch me play heroes in movies and than say I'm a hero because I'm just as heroic as they are."


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> ?


I was using the role model from your signature line to try and explain it to you:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Jayg14 said:


> Read the transcript. Your definition and hers aren't the same.
> 
> yours: don't worry about sex, worry about stepping in front of a bus for her
> hers: ask for help when you're sick, initiate sex, knowing you might be rejected.


When might becomes will... Good luck with that.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> I was using the role model from your signature line to try and explain it to you:


I get that, but I don't get how RDJ's quote from the film relates to *YOUR* definition of vulnerability (forget about sex and be ready to die at a moment's notice for your partner, then you will get sex) to what you posted from the Ted talk (ask for help when sick, initiate sex and be ready to be rejected).


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

john117 said:


> When might becomes will... Good luck with that.


?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Do the laundry, and vacuum the mother effing hell out of the floors. That'll do it. Like a boss.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> ?





Jayg14 said:


> ?


 @Jayg14 if you have questions, perhaps you really should start your own thread.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> @Jayg14 if you have questions, perhaps you really should start your own thread.
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


I am questioning certain posts by you and samyeager. He answered his, you have partially answered yours.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jayg14 said:


> To me, sex is the only intimacy I need.


Let me try and help you...

I know a guy from college that bragged about just wanting to be with a woman for great sex and that he wasn't interested in all that other relationship stuff for "suckers" as he would say. He found just that, and the girl was very aggressive with him sexually. After the sex was over, she needed him to leave until she was ready for it again the next day. 

Never have I seen a grown man cry so much in my life. He said he felt so used and unwanted as a person.

so @Jayg14 when you say "sex is the only intimacy you need," while I may be projecting some of my own life experiences onto that, I can't help but picture my friend from college sitting in the edge of the senior dorms and crying his eyes out that the woman he loved so much would not give him anything else other than just throwing him to the floor in her room and $%&^% his brains out and then asking him to get dressed and leave immediately afterwards. 

Us men are very emotional creatures too! Perhaps that is why you can't seem to let go about this question regarding vulnerability and needing certain clarification as to exactly what it is. As I imagine it makes you uncomfortable that being vulnerable involves something "uncertain".... 

If you need more help, please start your own thread...


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## Frustrated but trying (Aug 11, 2017)

I am in a similar situation as the OP. I have been married for 22 years, together for 25 years. Sex started as frequent, then occasional, to non-existent as the years past. We recently went through a 1 1/2 year period with no sex, not for lack of me trying. Without going into a lot of detail (I really should start a new thread on that), I have tried many if not all of the suggestions listed, and I have come to one conclusion: If both partners are not willing to fix the problem, or if both partners do not agree that there even is a problem, then the relationship is doomed to failure. I'll address a few of these, along with her response or the results of that action.

1. Appearance - I will be the first to admit, I did let myself go. I got up to 300 lbs, was out of shape, developed sleep apnea. Hell, we both did. I woke up one Monday morning last October, looked at myself in the mirror, and told myself No More. I was at the end of a physical therapy regimen after surgery for a torn rotator cuff, so it was an easy transition to the gym. I had actually joined the gym just prior to the shoulder going, but due to that it was 6 months before I got in there. I started eating better. Since then, I have lost 65 lbs, work out 4-5 times per week, and am in the best shape I have been since I was in my mid to late 20's (I'm 45 now). I dress better (because it is easier to find nice clothes that fit now), pay more attention to my hair, better hygiene (I was never a slob, I'm just more particular than before), and I have way more energy. Her response - Initially, she accused me of fooling around on her. She couldn't understand that I no longer wanted to feel like crap all the time, and because I was working on my appearance, I must be fooling around. She also complains that she can't lose weight despite not even attempting to, and has told my father (for some reason, she confides in him) that my increase in energy worries her because she can't keep up anymore. She has allowed herself to get to over 300lbs (she outweighed me even before I tried to lose weight). Her weight has never bothered me from an attraction point of view, hell, I love a curvy woman, but I do say that I am worried about her health. I've encouraged her to come to the gym with me, eat better, etc but she has not done this to date. I'm still trying to figure out how to discuss my concerns with her without her perceiving it as me calling her fat (I would go more into this, but this is turning out to be more of a book than I had intended already). All of this has not resulted in any more sex than before. I will say that the quality has improved, only because I have more stamina than before. 

2. Shaking things up - So far, this has had the biggest bang for the buck. Towards the end of last year, I reunited through Facebook with an old childhood friend who just so happened to be female. Just to make things clear, there is no affair going on here, physical or emotional. We were friends in elementary school, my family moved away during 6th grade, we reunited briefly during college, and the last time I had any contact with her was a couple of months before I met my wife. We tried to date a couple of times, realized that it was just too awkward between us for that type of relationship, and we lost contact. We never did anything more than go to dinner a few times, and a few family functions. Nothing physical ever happened with us, and I never even considered her an ex or anything like that. I was very open with the wife about this, but just the fact that I had a female friend that she did not know made her very uneasy. My friend and I went through great lengths to make sure that everything was in the open. Everything came to a head one day and she hacked into my facebook account. There was nothing inappropriate there, but wife saw that we had told each other good morning that day and that was enough to set her off. The results - This got us to talking about our issues and is what broke the 1 1/2 year dry spell. I would love to say that this fixed the issues, but it didn't. It at least got the conversation started though. However, it also caused a lot of other issues. For example, if she saw that my friend and I were on facebook at the same time, she would get jealous and it would cause issues. She immediately jumped to the conclusion that we were talking behind her back. We weren't. 

3. Counseling - After we got to talking about it, I suggested we go to marriage counseling. Her response - She declined. I encouraged IC, and went myself. She declined. I learned a lot about myself in the process. I'm glad I did it, but wish she would as well. 

4. Talking about our issues - During all of this, we have had several conversations about things. We talked about why we went without sex, and talked about a lot of other issues we have (Too many to list for this "quick" reply). Her response - I am blaming every thing on her, and that every thing is her fault. I have gone to great lengths to try to avoid saying anything like that. I freely admit to my faults and continue to do so. I don't know how to talk to her about my issues with the relationship without her coming to that conclusion. 

So, at the end of the day, where has all of this got me? I am now in a relationship where I have sex 1-2 times per week. I guess that is better than none, but still way less than I desire. Nothing about the relationship has improved, or has improved only slightly. I have learned through experience that in order to affect change, both parties have to be ready to face their shortcomings and do what is needed to correct them. And both parties have to recognize that change is needed for the relationship to survive. Without these 2 things, nothing will work to the satisfaction of both of you.


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## Jayg14 (May 23, 2011)

badsanta said:


> Jayg14 said:
> 
> 
> > To me, sex is the only intimacy I need.
> ...


That actually would be perfect for me right now. Wouldn't mind it at all if a girl asked me that after sex.

I have no issues with vulnerability involving uncertainty. I question why you think being vulnerable means not showing emotion, always being ready to die for your partner and forgetting about sex (all of which are you words that you posted).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Jayg14 said:


> yours: don't worry about sex, worry about stepping in front of a bus for her
> hers: ask for help when you're sick, initiate sex, knowing you ****might**** be rejected.


That might.


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