# Husbands who do 'her' chores have less sex, study finds



## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

I frequently quote Machiavelli by saying: 'You don't get laid being the maid.' Now, there's a study that confirms this very fact. (Actually, I didn't need a study to tell me this - I lived it for over twenty years.)

Husbands who do 'her' chores have less sex, study finds - TODAY Health


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I really appreciate when my hubby helps me out. We work together as a team and we don't keep score on who does what. This has zero effect on our intimate life.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I agree with you somewhat machiavelli. Though I think your statement 'Actually, I didn't need a study to tell me this - I lived it for over twenty years.' says a lot. I wonder, due to having read many of your posts, if maybe you have swung too far the other way. And taken on too much of the 'man' qualities and left all others behind. Like is said so many times, life is about balance. I hope you have balance in your bloke-ishness. 

I agree a man maid is not attractive. Not if he does all and the woman does nothing. I also think that a stay at home dad, if the wife is out doing all the earning, this does have some effect on the way he is perceived by his wife. Even if only small. Though if it is done through necessity, for a short period of a few years as a means to an end, while the children are small, I don't see that it has to have any effect at all on the marriage. It is practicality and necessity only. And that is fine.

I think a doormat in any situation, male or female, is wholly unattractive.

I think the best attraction is when there is a team. Solid and helpful and caring. That creates lots of love, and not just the emotional sense. I have had all 3 types, though the man who did not lift a finger to help, he also didn't do the 'men's' jobs either. I did all. He was just a lazy fuc*er. So, I do also think it depends on the personalities too.

My man, he helps me in all I do. We cook together, we clean up together, if I cook he washes up. If I am hanging washing on the line, he helps. If he sees the floor needs hoovering, he will do it. We both work. He full time, me part time. It is about spending time together and helping each other in whatever needs doing. And we get along famously. The attraction is passionate, and I have never felt so perfect with another man as I do him. The fact he helps me does not put me off him. Not one bit. Quite the opposite in fact. It makes me love him more. And if I love him more, I want to have sex with him more. All the time in fact.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

That conclusion certainly isn't true in our house. We do most things together - housework, yardwork, shopping, whatever. 

And we have more sex than either group in that study. ""_For couples in which men did no 'core' housework, sexual frequency was 4.8 times per month," says Kornrich. "For couples in which men did all of the 'core' housework, sexual frequency was 3.2 times per month._"" Our frequency is about 3 or 4 times that much!!!! :smthumbup:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

It's amazing how these statistics exist when everyone is an exception.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> It's amazing how these statistics exist when everyone is an exception.


The funny thing is, that statistics really can be made to say things that mean nothing. And everyone really can be an exception.

Think of an example - 100 couples. We want to know how often they have sex on average. So we ask all 200 of them and record their answers, add them up, and divide by 200 to get the average. But the average may or may not mean a damned thing - if 50 of them have sex once every year and the other 50 have sex twice a day, the average is going to be a number that none of them actually have. So the average is meaningless.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

In my personal experience, this study rings true. It turned out that the imbalance of household responsibilities was a sign of my wife's affair.


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## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

I agree to an extent.

But I've heard from more then one lady that a man who is in the kitchen and knows what he's doing, is a good turn on.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

OrganizedChaos said:


> I agree to an extent.
> 
> But I've heard from more then one lady that a man who is in the kitchen and knows what he's doing, is a good turn on.


Especially if all he's wearing is an apron. :smthumbup:


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

Disagree. One of the things that I liked about my ex in the beginning is that he would clean. It's also something we did together a lot of times. He was also a better cook than I was when we met (I'm a great cook now). 

Further, when I got home after an eleven hour day to a messy house and still had to do the dishes before I could cook and he'd only worked six/seven hour shifts; I was not feeling more sexual towards him at all... more like a little bit pissed and taken advantage of.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

I agree, men need to be men for the most part. 

I'm not saying go all Fred Flintstone as I frequently cook and help out, but eventhough I work at home half the time(I still can't be disturbed. The idea of working at home while taking care of kid/s at the same time is a myth) my paycheck supports both of us for the most part. She works 1-3 times a week currently so is mostly home.

So the way we see it, I handle the income, pay all the bills, file all the taxes, Set up an auto transfer to give us each a weekly allowance so we have money, but also steadily fill our savings accounts. (minored in finance) 

She takes care of our home and our child and works her job on the days she has hours.

We truly have no disparities about our division of labor. Cleaning the house and all that is her responsibility for the most part and she accepts that(excluding a few like trash, garage, etc). She knows after being out for 13 hours or crammed in my office all day the last thing I want to do is wash dishes or pick up toys.(although we each put him to be bed the same amount by switching day after day)


It'd be unacceptable for me to be the man who works all day and doubles as the night maid as soon as he gets home. 

^ The idea of that is just unseemly, and I can't see how having a walking paycheck/house servant can be attractive.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Sure...women "like" a man who will do dishes, laundry, vacuum, sweep and mop, clean the bathrooms and cook.

But in my opinion they won't desire them. And I think that's sort of the point. Progressive attitudes can't overcome biological programming. If a male is "acting" like a female there's little doubt in my mind that she would be less attracted to him than a male "acting" like a male.

I know it's not "en vogue" to say so, but I would think that's an obvious assumption?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I do the dishes and take out the trash. Beyond that it's her realm now. Hate to sound like a sexist pig, but it is what it is.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I guess if you subscribe to the theory of 'his n hers' chores, then you would perceive your man as acting like a woman if he does the dishes or the vacuuming. But gender specific chores is a societal construct. Women who are able to see past the stereotypes don't view it that way. I mow grass. Does my husband find me less sexy because that is a 'mans' chore???


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I do half the laundry, all of the grocery shopping, a third of the cooking, all of the dishes, mow the lawn, she does all of the carpentry (she finished the basement), all of the bills, half of the child care, and all of the gardening

we have sex 3-5 times a week
so whatevs

if anything if I do less we have less sex since she gets too tired after chores due to her MS

and why is this is in CWI anyways?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

bottom line is I married someone who loves me for who I am instead of what roles we are supposed to play


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> and why is this is in CWI anyways?


AR, I'm shocked that you ask this question.

How many times have we heard a betrayed husband lament about doing laundry, housework, cooking, etc. to please his wife and she ends up cheating on him.

This comes up so often it should be a proverb.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> I guess if you subscribe to the theory of 'his n hers' chores, then you would perceive your man as acting like a woman if he does the dishes or the vacuuming. But gender specific chores is a societal construct. Women who are able to see past the stereotypes don't view it that way. I mow grass. Does my husband find me less sexy because that is a 'mans' chore???


I definitely agree that there are no "his and hers" jobs around the house. If there were, single people of boy genders would find only half of their household chores done.

I do the laundry. My wife hates doing it, while I don't mind because it can be done on auto-pilot...five minutes once an hour for 3-4 hours depending on how many loads. Factor in about 30 minutes to put away. You're looking at max an hour a week. In contrast, my wife cooks and handles the dishes, because she'd rather do that than laundry. All other cleaning is informally divided when it's done "You do the living room this time, I'll do the bedroom."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> AR, I'm shocked that you ask this question.
> 
> How many times have we heard a betrayed husband lament about doing laundry, housework, cooking, etc. to please his wife and she ends up cheating on him.
> 
> This comes up so often it should be a proverb.


but the survey has nothing to with infidelity

and I don't buy into the crap that doing chores leads to infidelity


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> but the survey has nothing to with infidelity
> 
> and I don't buy into the crap that doing chores leads to infidelity


In my opinion, this is a case where correlation does not mean causation. When I was doing the Six Sigma classes awhile back, one of the instructors gave an example about storks and babies, where in one of the European countries the birth rate was higher around the time the storks were migrating hence the fable of the stork bringing a baby to a young couple. So while this statistical study may be true on the surface, the underlying root cause is not that the man is doing these chores so much as the guy is probably exhibiting "doormat behavior" and the extra chores that he is doing are a symptom of his "beta male personality" (hate to use that label).

I would bet a man and a woman could have a very healthy, rewarding sex life even if he is the one that cooks and cleans while she is the one doing the car and house repairs. So long as the man "acts like a man", i.e. has a healthy level of self respect - his wife/GF will find him desirable.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Almostrecovered said:


> but the survey has nothing to with infidelity
> 
> and I don't buy into the crap that doing chores leads to infidelity


You are correct. The survey did not address infidelity. I don't know what methodology they used to come up with their numbers but I'll take their results at face value. With this in mind, something about men doing housework is causing women to have sex with them less often. Whether they make up for the difference by going out and having affairs is subject to speculation.

I can only speak from personal experience by saying that doing four hours of housework a week did not get me more sex with my ex. Likewise, she ended up cheating on me so the study may not be relevant to YOU - but it certainly is relevant to ME.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

If you go to the primary study something is shown there that is not shown in this tertiary article. Remember, primary studies tell all. 

The primary research shows that households where men help in doing some but not all the household chores had the highest rating of 'getting laid'.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

drerio said:


> If you go to the primary study something is shown there that is not shown in this tertiary article. Remember, primary studies tell all.
> 
> The primary research shows that households where men help in doing some but not all the household chores had the highest rating of 'getting laid'.


Ah, yes. Now this makes some sense to me.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

I make sure my hands are greasy and my shirt is sweaty...while I'm cleaning the toilet, that way my wife knows I'm still a guy!

On a serious note.

There are many ways to interpret numbers such as this. You could have 10 couples. 5 couples have sex every day, 2 couples once per week and 3 couples have NO sex. And yet the mean (average) would be the average is every other day. Now the reality is half of the participants are no where NEAR that number. You can reverse it as well and have a report that shows barely any sex is going on, but in reality 33% of the participants have it daily LOL.

There's a reason statisticians use median, mean and mode when interpreting numbers like this. They tell different stories.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Just go to the primary research referenced in the article. Go to Google Scholar and type in the authors name and follow through to the subject matter. The article is about seven years old. 

I will say the statistical analysis is good. Subjects of the study may seem a little bias, but human studies are always that way. I don't have a problem with the primary study results, I normally have a problem with the way popular magazines filter the evidence.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> The funny thing is, that statistics really can be made to say things that mean nothing. And everyone really can be an exception.
> 
> Think of an example - 100 couples. We want to know how often they have sex on average. So we ask all 200 of them and record their answers, add them up, and divide by 200 to get the average. But the average may or may not mean a damned thing - if 50 of them have sex once every year and the other 50 have sex twice a day, the average is going to be a number that none of them actually have. So the average is meaningless.


Outliers, such as people doing it once a year, are usually thrown out of the results.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

So the " logical " argument is;
If I helped my wife with her chores, it would make her more attracted to me and help me get even more sex.


Sooooooo,

Applying converse logic,
If my wife helps me with my chores like taking out the garbage , doing the lawn, and general maintenance of our property,
Will that get _*her*_ more sex?

Just turning it around in my mind to see exactly how it works.
Just asking.......


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

staystrong said:


> Outliers, such as people doing it once a year, are usually thrown out of the results.


I know. I was using that as an extreme example to prove my point, which is basically the same as drerio's


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

drerio said:


> If you go to the primary study something is shown there that is not shown in this tertiary article. Remember, primary studies tell all.
> 
> The primary research shows that households where men help in doing some but not all the household chores had the highest rating of 'getting laid'.


Lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics!

W and I are both 48, two kids.

I do almost all of the cooking (I like cooking and it allows me to eat what I want for the most part). Kids and W clean up. 

I do way more than half the laundry because, as another poster pointed out, it is SO easy. If it meant going down to the river with a washboard and some soft soap then this might not be the case. Pushing buttons and measuring laundry detergent I can do. And folding? I take my time because I can do it WHILE HAVING A BEER AND WATCHING THE GAME!

The kids do their own laundry.

Cleaning? We both try to keep things reasonably tidy but I have long earned enough money to afford a cleaning lady (recently, we both started to earn about the same so now that cost is split if anyone is counting).

We have a great sex life.

By the way, the quoted frequency numbers seem pretty low, don't you think? They are compared to our marriage.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> The funny thing is, that statistics really can be made to say things that mean nothing. And everyone really can be an exception.


I suppose people can torture statistics to show nonsensical things. Or, people can use tiny sample sizes that have no credibility. But otherwise, statistics is a very valuable science.



Hope1964 said:


> Think of an example - 100 couples. We want to know how often they have sex on average. So we ask all 200 of them and record their answers, add them up, and divide by 200 to get the average. But the average may or may not mean a damned thing - if 50 of them have sex once every year and the other 50 have sex twice a day, the average is going to be a number that none of them actually have. So the average is meaningless.


Yes, that's one of the drawbacks of using tiny sample sizes. Very few scholarly articles use such small sample sizes for that very reason. I believe the research in question sampled over 13k individuals. So the likelihood and having a nonsensical scenario such as your hypothetical example is very small.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> But gender specific chores is a societal construct.


It's easy to say that gender specific behavior is a societal construct. But studies like this cast doubt on the assumption.

There is certainly empirical evidence that there are mental and behavioral differences between the sexes that are hard-wired into us from birth. Perhaps chores are one of those differences.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> If I helped my wife with her chores, it would make her more attracted to me and help me get even more sex.
> 
> Sooooooo,
> If my wife helps me with my chores like taking out the garbage , doing the lawn, and general maintenance of our property,
> ...


That would be the interesting counterpart study... The primary research paper (I downloaded from our University database system, I think otherwise it is $30) didn't consider that, but would be interesting. I am pretty sure you would get anecdotal responses all over the map, but nothing you could analysis with any certainty. 

Mind you this not my area of expertise and I did quick peruse of it mainly look for their hypothesis aims and only focused on the graphs and tables that the researchers generated. I just simply noted a piece of data in the primary article that was not referenced in the tertiary article.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

JustPuzzled said:


> Lies, dam*ed lies, and statistics!
> 
> W and I are both 48, two kids.
> 
> ...


And, in this study you would be an outlier and not fall under the accepted statistical variance. I simply have a problem with popular magazines leaving out pertinent info.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

When I marry, I'm just gonna tie a sled to her back, whip her and yell mush. Then bang her till the neighbours need a cigarette.

I think the research is correct. Being a beta slave/butler doesn't bring attraction. If she doesn't express appreciation over the things you do, then chances are she doesn't appreciate you and feels entitled to your "services".


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

OrganizedChaos said:


> I agree to an extent.
> 
> But I've heard from more then one lady that a man who is in the kitchen and knows what he's doing, is a good turn on.


Well it didn't work out that way with my wife's brother in law and quite a few other men I know.

He was a well known chef , happily married , until he decided to become a stay at home dad.
Not even that apron , and his tasty 5 cheese lasagne, could have saved him.
His wife left him for the other man who was a mechanical engineer, wealthy businessman and a notorious playboy.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> There is certainly empirical evidence that there are mental and behavioral differences between the sexes that are hard-wired into us from birth. Perhaps chores are one of those differences.


Oh yes, there certainly are, but who does what chores does not result from a hard wired difference, except insofar as the man does the heavy stuff and the woman the light stuff simply because he is physically stronger. Even the nurturing stuff can be done by the man despite the fact women are more nurturing by nature, statistically speaking 

Many of the 'traditional' man vs woman chores have developed from times when physical differences did matter. But nowadays, with technology and our way of life, those differences don't matter as much.

As for the mental and behavioural differences, it's the old 'nature vs nurture' debate. Do little girls act like they do because of the way their brains are wired, or because they pick up on cues from their environment when forming cognizance from birth? Everyone has an opinion on this, but proving any of it is pretty well impossible.


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

Another thought: Is it possible that in marriages where the H does not contribute to general "W" chores that there is an entirely different dynamic that leads to greater frequency?

What I mean is that the article does not appear to ask if Ws WANT to have more sex with men who do less. It just says that if men do lots of W chores then there is less sex.

Maybe the guys who do more chores simply demand less sex.

Maybe guys who do fewer chores feel more entitled, and their wives feel more subservient, resulting in greater demands by the H and mere acquiescence to those demands by the W.

Whadya think?

And, yes, why IS this thread in CWI? Is there a stampede of women who are running away from Hs who cook and do some of the cleaning?


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## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

I think I said this in the other thread that was started on this issue. 

I'm just going to make sure one of my daily tasks in chopping wood with my shift off, hopefully thats manly enough for future wifey.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Many of the 'traditional' man vs woman chores have developed from times when physical differences did matter. *But nowadays, with technology and our way of life, those differences don't matter as much.*
> .


And along with technology,came a bit of social engineering.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

My husband did no housework, and it certainly did not make me want to jump him more often. What it did do, however, was build resentment. We both work full time. Why should all of the childcare and 90% of the housework (everything except mowing our 1/2 acre of grass and large carpentry projects) have been my responsibility? By the way, he's the one who cheated.

I don't want a man to do all of the chores. But I also don't want a man who does none of them. I got married to have a partner. I don't need him to be my servant, and I don't want to be his.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> So the " logical " argument is;
> If I helped my wife with her chores, it would make her more attracted to me and help me get even more sex.
> 
> 
> ...


I think it's a delicate dance that we do. Part of that is keeping the nest feathered. So, a man does a bit of that, which shows his commitment to the nest. The corollary for the woman, in my intuitive opinion, is not taking on his household chores. Rather, it's working outside the home while maintaining the home at the same time. I believe that men find professional women strong and attractive, but also want to be taken care of at home, so the wife who maintains a professional persona but still takes care of the home is desired. Both of these behaviors go to a collective caretaking of the nest.

In each case, the spouse has taken a bit of the standard traditional gender role of the other and this binds them together.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

JustPuzzled said:


> Another thought: Is it possible that in marriages where the H does not contribute to general "W" chores that there is an entirely different dynamic that leads to greater frequency?
> 
> What I mean is that the article does not appear to ask if Ws WANT to have more sex with men who do less. It just says that if men do lots of W chores then there is less sex.
> 
> ...


I think your brain works like mine does  Excellent points.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

JustPuzzled said:


> What I mean is that the article does not appear to ask if Ws WANT to have more sex with men who do less. It just says that if men do lots of W chores then there is less sex.
> 
> Maybe the guys who do more chores simply demand less sex.


My point exactly.

The guys who does all her chores whilst she's busy catching up with the latest gossip , becomes unattractive to her because she knows that he will do exactly what _she _says, without a single complaint. He has made himself into a doormat.
Every single woman hates a doormat


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> I think your brain works like mine does  Excellent points.


Kind of you to say, Hope.

One thing that I will say is that my wife thinks it's hot when I do certain H chores. We lived for many years in a house with a wood-burning fireplace and she once told me that she liked watching me from the kitchen window while I split and stacked a cord of firewood. It made for a "nice" view, she said.

Now we have gas fireplaces...

Need an new manly chore, maybe (aside from mowing, etc. - already do that).


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## OrganizedChaos (Jan 23, 2013)

Caribbean Man said:


> Well it didn't work out that way with my wife's brother in law and quite a few other men I know.
> 
> He was a well known chef , happily married , until he decided to become a stay at home dad.
> Not even that apron , and his tasty 5 cheese lasagne, could have saved him.
> His wife left him for the other man who was a mechanical engineer, wealthy businessman and a notorious playboy.


Maybe her Palate sucked.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

JustPuzzled said:


> Kind of you to say, Hope.
> 
> One thing that I will say is that my wife thinks it's hot when I do certain H chores. We lived for many years in a house with a wood-burning fireplace and she once told me that she liked watching me from the kitchen window while I split and stacked a cord of firewood. It made for a "nice" view, she said.
> 
> ...


My wife likes it when I fix things.
Before she calls a repairman , she asks me to fix it.
She likes my cooking, but she has never told me that she thinks its " hot."
Whenever I do " manly " chores she thinks_ that's_ hot.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

OrganizedChaos said:


> Maybe her Palate sucked.


Or maybe she lost all respect for him , because he no longer brought in the money.

Coming home at 2 AM in the morning, working all weekend long , and saying that she had to work harder because he chose to stay at home and raise the child.....

She had way too much freedom.


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## btdt (Nov 19, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> I do the dishes and take out the trash. Beyond that it's her realm now. Hate to sound like a sexist pig, but it is what it is.


yuuuup. i also do all the work on the outside of the house, yardwork, building sh!t, hanging christmas lights, planting trees etc.
i will help with dishes on occasion, especially now that our son is due any day now.
but i wont vacum or do too much of anything else having to do with household chores. the outside is my domain/responsibility, the inside is hers.
plus, she is a SAHM. so, i put it to her like this, "i dont call you in the middle of the day to come and help me complete my tasks at work, so you shouldnt expect me to come home from work and complete yours at home."
and she doesnt.
like dig said, it may sound sexist, but its how i was raised and who i am. she doesnt have to worry about anything having to do with upkeep of the house, making money, feeding us, or keeping a roof over our head. thats my job. and i do it, and i expect her to do hers.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Lots of personal anecdotal evidence can be given back and forth, but the study (at least from the primary research) indicates the extremes (doing all or none) usually does not portend well for a H who wants to have sex (often) with his wife. Should not come at all that big of a surprise.

For my little anecdotal input... I am hot to my wife when I can catch the geckos in the house she so hates. I have gotten pretty damn good at it


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## donny64 (Apr 21, 2012)

There's probably a lot of truth in that study, but where this really rings true is not with the couple that share house chores, but with guys who are tryung to "nice" their way to getting something they're not. In a home where duties are equally shared, and the relationship is solid, I don't see it as an issue. 

I'm not going to sit on my butt while the W cleans house and cooks just because there's no "manly chores" to do. How many times you you have to change the oil or mow the lawn?

I love to cook, and do so a few times a week. These are usually our nice dinners as I am just a better cook, and I get into it, and it is a fun, mutually beneficial distraction. I help clean the house. I have no problem scrubbing a toilet or shower. What I do have a problem with is doing any of that if she's slacking. If she's not keeping up her end, with no good reason, she gets gently "called on it". That is usually enough to right the ship. 

We both work full time. Make the same money. No kids. No problem here doing "women's work". As long as she does the same. What I won't do is "more" because "she's tired". We work the same hours. I am tired too, but things need to get done. Outside of cooking, I don't like house chores more than anyone else. But I do them, and she does too. 

When there are guy chores to do, I do them, and she makes up the slack on the housekeeping side of things. 

I won't ever not do my part. What I refuse to do, however, is do more than my part because she's tired, I'm not getting any, and she thinks she needs to be more "rested" to be in the mood. Seperate issue, a bullchit excuse, and will always be treated as such in our house. If more guys "got that", there would be fewer guys not "getting *IT"*.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

My wife and I are straight up 50/50 on all chores, and I'm getting laid just fine. She's a happy lady. But I'm also not doormat either. 

My counter to these studies is: Hop on over to the affair sites and read about how many women are cheating on their husbands because they're "lazy, non-contributing members of the household" who "expect their wives to do everything around the house for them".


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

I think that from the minute sex become negotiable, then something is wrong.
My wife thinks its nice when I do manly stuff, but I don't have to do anything to have sex with her, neither does she have to do anything for me to want to have sex with her.
Sex is always there and we both want to have sex with each other.
The only thing that affects sex between us is our workload. [ we own a business]
After the work related stress is gone, 
Back to regular sex.


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> My point exactly.
> 
> The guys who does all her chores whilst she's busy catching up with the latest gossip , becomes unattractive to her because she knows that he will do exactly what _she _says, without a single complaint. He has made himself into a doormat.
> Every single woman hates a doormat


Not exactly my point. No one wants a doormat but doing W chores does not make the H a doormat. Doing ANY chores, "W" or "H", while the W eats bonbons and gossips will send you down the doormat trail.

I do W chores but, while I am doing them, my wife helps the kids with homework and takes care of other tasks that she is better at than I am.

I meant that maybe it's a power thing. Lazy, entitled guys might just demand more sex to mark their territory (or whatever, you get my drift). The Ws might just agree because they feel weak in the relationship. It doesn't mean that they necessarily want or enjoy the sex.

There seem to be plenty of spouses (Ws, mostly, and not surprisingly) over in the SIM forum who have fairly frequent sex without actually wanting it. They just put up with it.

The old saying is that correlation does not imply causation. If it did then the decline in the stork population in Sweden would, in fact, be the cause of the decline in the birth rate there. The real situation is that, as population increased and the birth rate slowed, the amount of stork habitat declined as well. I digress.


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> My wife likes it when I fix things.
> Before she calls a repairman , she asks me to fix it.
> She likes my cooking, but she has never told me that she thinks its " hot."
> Whenever I do " manly " chores she thinks_ that's_ hot.


Same here. I fix things. And haul things. And lift things. You'd go broke always calling the repairman.

My point is that if an H does W chores this is not necessarily, in and of itself, unattractive to women.

Yeesh. Sounds like somebody's looking for an excuse to duck some chores:

"<ahem> My dear wife, for the sake of our sex life and overall marital health I must decline your requests to help in the kitchen and for me to pick my underwear off the floor. Good day."


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

I think the study is true. 

However the problem is that it's misleading.

If a woman is in a relationship where she does nearly everything and has to nag her husband to do things too, she will not find him attractive either.

A woman needs a man who she can trust to take care of what needs to be done, bec'ause he is an adult and that's what adults do.

If you both work outside the home fulltime, then you both should be working inside the home almost as much as each other give or take. If the wife is a SAHM, then when the man gets home he shouldn't sit on his but, a decent caring man will do his fair share, and ensure they both get some down time.

If men are doing chores to get sex, then they are allready behind the 8 ball. If they are doing chores because they are adults and they are responsible and caring, then their wife is probably allready likely to find them more attractive.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

JustPuzzled said:


> And, yes, why IS this thread in CWI? Is there a stampede of women who are running away from Hs who cook and do some of the cleaning?


As the Count explained earlier, the most common post from a man here recounts a tale of a wife distancing herself while complaining of stress and exhaustion from chores, the husband struggling to do more household chores to alleviate her stress, and the wife continuing to distance herself. Often this distance either involves another man, or creates the opportunity for another man to enter the picture. This study just lends support to the well established position held by most here that you can't "nice" your wife into giving up an attraction for another man, or increasing her attraction to you.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

*LittleDeer* said:


> If men are doing chores to get sex, then they are allready behind the 8 ball. If they are doing chores because they are adults and they are responsible and caring, then their wife is probably allready likely to find them more attractive.


I have a kinda crude perspective on this statement. In theory, I agree, simply from a logical and intellectual standpoint. But my crude, cut-through-the-BS realistic side says that we as men simply do pretty much everything to get sex. 

lol


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> If men are doing chores to get sex, then they are allready behind the 8 ball.


:iagree:

Couldn't have said it better myself!


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

JustPuzzled said:


> And, yes, why IS this thread in CWI? Is there a stampede of women who are running away from Hs who cook and do some of the cleaning?


Are you guys trying to hurt my feelings? Because it's not working.

I don't start too many threads and I thought the topic was relevant with respect to the dynamics of married life vis a vis male-female interactions.

Next time I'll be sure to run it by the mods before posting.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> As the Count explained earlier, the most common post from a man here recounts a tale of a wife distancing herself while complaining of stress and exhaustion from chores, the husband struggling to do more household chores to alleviate her stress, and the wife continuing to distance herself.


F'ng BINGO!!!

See, I flew a private jet all over the world. I would be gone 2 weeks at a time and it was normal. I'd get home and just wanna f'ng chill for a couple days before I had to go back on the road. I always...ALWAYS have done the dishes and taken out the trash, while even during the summer...when she is out of work...I'd get home and just want to be with her, she'd get a little cranky cuz I didn't mow the f'ng lawn.

Sorry for wanting to just hang while I was home. 

To her credit, Regret has totally acknowledged how she treated me so badly those 7 years...5 of which she was in her affair. I busted my ass to bring home a terrific paycheck and decided in 2011 that it wasn't worth what I was missing with my family. Funny how I discovered her affair within months of not flying all over the damn place.

Oh...and I still don't do the laundry. I might - maybe - vaccuum once in a while. But that's it.

#rantoff


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Hope1964 said:


> I guess if you subscribe to the theory of 'his n hers' chores, then you would perceive your man as acting like a woman if he does the dishes or the vacuuming. But gender specific chores is a societal construct. Women who are able to see past the stereotypes don't view it that way. I mow grass. Does my husband find me less sexy because that is a 'mans' chore???


He shouldn't...but here's the thing. I feel it as my DUTY to mow the lawn. So I want to do that. I want to take out the trash. I want to fire up the snow blower and cut through the blizzard (damn ottawa winters).

And I would hope she wants me to do those things too. I dont want to do the laundry (even though I do) or the bathrooms (ditto) or the groceries (yup...do that too). Does she want me to? And does it turn her on when I do? This study is about getting sex. And I have a difficult time believing me doing massive amounts of laundry is getting her going.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

:rofl:

"Her" chores.

:wtf:

I work full time too...is that HIS work? HIS money? Eff no. It's mine. So we split the household crap too.


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## KingofIstatements (Jul 30, 2011)

The “Porn for Women” concept always kind of bemused me, since we married I’ve found the idea very irritating. 
I believe in a fair share of the household workload, particularly once little ones are in the home, even if the W is a SAHM like mine, and I’ve always tried to help when and how I can. 
However, I’ve had a real difficult time when my wife tosses out the old chestnut “Women are turned on by a man who helps around the house.” When, actually, it seems my efforts just free up time for Facebook and her volunteer activities. I’m intelligent enough to know that Women don’t get horny thinking about a guy washing dishes when they’re on a dance-floor. 

We had an interesting discussion recently when my Dr. indicated an issue I was having is probably due to lack of sex. When we talked about it that night she alluded to that idea again and I’d made a comment like “If only I’d also taken out the trash this morning” (after getting up the kids, making both our lunches, and lastly, frantically getting myself ready for work, while she slumbered...) 
The following discussion was rather enlightening! For the next 10 minutes “we” ran down the list in her head of everything I’d not done “correctly”, or forgotten for the week prior or so... Ah, so that’s what she means. Who knew putting dishes away was such an exacting science, huh? She then went on to say that she doesn’t expect me to be “perfect”, just have more consideration for her. Still trying to figger that one out.

As far as the relevance in CWI, I personally haven’t had to deal with this (yet), but have known several men who stood at the end of the driveway with a baby in one hand, bottle of formula in the other, saying “OK honey, I’ve got it covered, go have yourself a good time with the “girls”.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

KingofIstatements said:


> The “Porn for Women” concept always kind of bemused me, since we married I’ve found the idea very irritating.
> I believe in a fair share of the household workload, particularly once little ones are in the home, even if the W is a SAHM like mine, and I’ve always tried to help when and how I can.
> However, I’ve had a real difficult time when my wife tosses out the old chestnut “Women are turned on by a man who helps around the house.” When, actually, it seems my efforts just free up time for Facebook and her volunteer activities. I’m intelligent enough to know that Women don’t get horny thinking about a guy washing dishes when they’re on a dance-floor.
> 
> ...


You are the example of the man giving to much.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> If the wife is a SAHM, then *when the man gets home he shouldn't sit on his but*, a decent caring man will do his fair share, and ensure they both get some down time.


If he's pulling in enough bread that she gets to be a SAHM, then he's already done his part at the office.



*LittleDeer* said:


> If men are doing chores to get sex, then they are allready behind the 8 ball.


Correct.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

KingofIstatements said:


> The “Porn for Women” concept always kind of bemused me, since we married I’ve found the idea very irritating.... Women don’t get horny thinking about a guy washing dishes when they’re on a dance-floor.


Hey, King, you've read MMSL haven't you?


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## JustPuzzled (Dec 12, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Are you guys trying to hurt my feelings? Because it's not working.
> 
> I don't start too many threads and I thought the topic was relevant with respect to the dynamics of married life vis a vis male-female interactions.
> 
> Next time I'll be sure to run it by the mods before posting.


The lightheartedness in my replies and the replies of others is not (at least from me) meant to hurt anyone's feelings.

If your point is that doing certain chores is not a way to win back a WS then, yes, I agree that simply doing "stuff" and being nice is a foolish and unproductive route.

As others have pointed out, any marriage with a big imbalance has a problem. The imbalance could be in the acceptance of general workload, in the amount of time that each partner wants to spend time with the other, in the amount of sex that is desired/afforded, etc. Imbalance is bad in a marriage.

I think that in a healthy marriage each partner knows what the other is good at and what each partner likes or hates doing.


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> If he's pulling in enough bread that she gets to be a SAHM, then he's already done his part at the office.


Agreed


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> If he's pulling in enough bread that she gets to be a SAHM, then he's already done his part at the office.


Incorrect and this is the kind statement that puts many women off being a SAHM. 

I have been a SAHM and I have been a working mum.

When you are a SAHM particularly of small children, it is not fair for a woman to do everything around the house and with the children simply because you pull in a large pay check. Money does = work load, and I have never been so tired as I was with a very small baby. I don't think it would have been fair for me to get up early every day and do everything at home, and work until quite late at night while he got to come home and sit around. 

I would not be attracted to a man who valued his role over mine we might be different, but we have equal value and both deserve a break.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> If he's pulling in enough bread that she gets to be a SAHM, then he's already done his part at the office.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.


Say he works 8 hours+ communte a day 5 days a week.

SAHM work is 24/7. If she is doing what a SAHM does, there are still things that need to be done after her 8-10 hours of work with household things and the children.

So after they both do their 8-10 shift for the day, there are still things to do. Dinner dishes, get the children ready for bed, and other things. They both need to pitch in and do those things that need to be done in the non-work hours of weekdays and weekends.


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## KingofIstatements (Jul 30, 2011)

Machiavelli said:


> Hey, King, you've read MMSL haven't you?


No, but from what I've read here on TAM so far it should be on my short list, before I implode.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

KingofIstatements said:


> No, but from what I've read here on TAM so far it should be on my short list, before I implode.


You can get an almost daily dose of MMSL insights on the Chateau Hartiste blog. 

**Warning - NOT politically correct!**
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

old timer said:


> You can get an almost daily dose of MMSL insights on the Chateau Hartiste blog.
> 
> **Warning - NOT politically correct!**
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chateau Heartiste ftw! And such a cool name, too.


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> SAHM work is 24/7. If she is doing what a SAHM does, there are still things that need to be done after her 8-10 hours of work with household things and the children.


My ex was a SAHM for eleven years. This definitely wasn't 24/7 work. She might have been on call 24/7 but she had time to sleep, watch her soap operas, go to playgroup with the kids. There was a lot of down time for her. Also, she got relieved on the weekends.

I'm not belittling the work that she did and feel fortunate that I could afford for her to stay at home with the kids. But looking back, she could've done more.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> If he's pulling in enough bread that she gets to be a SAHM, then he's already done his part at the office.


:iagree:

I really don't think its fair to expect a man after a gruelling 8- hour shift to come home after work and still _have_ to do chores.

If he was a stay at home dad , should the wife be expected to_ still _do household chores after she returns form work?

Something's not right about that logic.

Whenever the need arises he / she could and should pitch in and help. 
But if you are a SAHM and things are never organized in the home, and you are always too tired for sex, then maybe you should get a full time job and we hire a maid.
But I doubt that it would fix a sexless marriage.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Incorrect and this is the kind statement that puts many women off being a SAHM.
> 
> I have been a SAHM and I have been a working mum.
> 
> ...


LittleDeer,

I can't argue against your first point. Being a sahm with young children is an INSANE amount of work. Especially if the kids don't have a set nap schedule (like mine didn't). 

Your second point is also a winner. No woman would be happy with a man valuing his role in the family over hers. Especially when most of her day is spent raising a human being.

I think where I get lost is back to the original point of the study somehow inferring that doing traditional female house chores will equate to more sex. I can tell you, having been raised by a single mother to do my own cooking, cleaning and laundry from an early age and then transfering that to my marriage it seems like it almost has the opposite effect. 

Let me be clear. When I'm fixing something, or blowing snow I don't get anymore loving than I do if I clean the bathrooms. I guess my point is, neither a "his" chore or a "her" chore is going to significantly influence a womans libido. She either wants your schlong or she doesn't. Would you agree with that or am I way off base?


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I really don't think its fair to expect a man after a gruelling 8- hour shift to come home after work and still _have_ to do chores.
> 
> ...


You know, it's not going to sound to PC but I agree with this.

The working dad/sahm dynamic is supposed to be I'll take care of everything on the outside (in terms of bringing home the bacon, bills etc) you keep the home and nurture the children. I wouldn't expect the man to come home and take care of all of the household chores anymore than I'd expect the woman to leave the house and go finish up some files for me at work.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

sinnister said:


> LittleDeer,
> 
> 
> Let me be clear. When I'm fixing something, or blowing snow I don't get anymore loving than I do if I clean the bathrooms. I guess my point is, neither a "his" chore or a "her" chore is going to significantly influence a womans libido. She either wants your schlong or she doesn't.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

You cannot negotiate sexual attraction.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree:
> 
> I really don't think its fair to expect a man after a gruelling 8- hour shift to come home after work and still _have_ to do chores.
> 
> ...


Yes if a woman works outside the home she should come home and do some work at home too. Neither person should be doing everything a home. Having young children and a house to take care of takes way more hours then the average job, and is exhausting because it can be like ground hog day, and never lets up. 

I also consider myself to be a very clean and organised person, and with my ex H did 95% of the house work, I organised everything, paid the bills, did the majority of the child care. 

Whilst doing housework is not sexy or usually sexual, a man who gets in and what needs to be done, who takes part of the stress and worry away by just doing what needs to be done, because he is an adult, and knows that having children changes the workload and responsibilities enormously. That makes him smart responsible- a man you don't need to nag, a man who really takes care of not just his own needs but yours too. 

You have children, you live in a house, you eat the food, wear clothes and use the toilet, so aportioning more work to your spouse because they don't bring home a pay check makes you a jerk and self serving. That is very unsexy in a man or a woman. 

It's the whole package that makes him sexy, and desirable. 

(Oh and cm do you have children?)


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

sinnister said:


> LittleDeer,
> 
> I can't argue against your first point. Being a sahm with young children is an INSANE amount of work. Especially if the kids don't have a set nap schedule (like mine didn't).
> 
> ...


Men need to get the balance right, just as women do, or someone will walk all over them, and not find them attractive. Or if they are a self serving jerk full of self importance and inflated ego, eventually the spouse will become resentful and not find them attractive either. Balance is key. 

Housework does add to the over balance of a healthy relationship. 

My so does his fair share (no more no less- unless I am ill etc) and I am *very* attracted to him.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

My wife went back to work after being a SAHM for 2 years. So now we both work full time and our schedules work out that we only need a nanny one day a week. On the days I have both boys I have them from the second they wake up to the time they go to bed. I have to say its more work than my full time job. A lot of fun but it is like ground hog day. They are worst bosses I have ever had. 
I think a husband / wife should pitch in when they get home. Saying that ...the house shouldn't look like a bomb hit when the spouse get home from work either. Then the spouse may feel they are being taken advantage of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> Are you guys trying to hurt my feelings? Because it's not working.
> 
> I don't start too many threads and I thought the topic was relevant with respect to the dynamics of married life vis a vis male-female interactions.
> 
> Next time I'll be sure to run it by the mods before posting.


It being here makes sense to me. While I'll be the first to admit that since STBXWW moved out I have had to clean toilets for the first time in my 40 years.

With that said, I sucked my wife's d*ck for 15 long years, doing anything to please her, because I thought we were "partners" and "in love". What did it get me? Betrayal.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> ...so aportioning more work to your spouse because they don't bring home a pay check makes you a jerk and self serving.


i personally have no problem helping out around the house _to a certain degree_.
i work 10-14 hours each and every day with maybe one day "off" on the weekend. and usually that day i will take our daughter if my wife wants some time to herself to get her nails done or whatever women do.
when i get home each evening, i relieve my wife of our 18mo daughter and she typically is my responsibility until her bedtime so she is with me most of that time.
so i dont see how that would be aportioning more work to her. i work say an average of 12 hours. when i get home i have another 3-4 that i am the keeper of the beast (lol). so thats 15-16 hours a day that i "work". so we are really even on the amount of time that we both spend working per say, BUT this does not take into account the times that my daughter is in daycare while my wife is at the gym (typically 2 hours every other day), or when she is being babysat by one of her grandmothers (maybe 1-2 days a week for a couple hours). so, what i WONT do is come home, take our daughter, cook dinner, fold the laundry, sweep the floor and wash the dishes, while my wife complains about how tired she is from managing a toddler all day. aint gonna happen. and if that makes me a jerk or a sexist pig, so be it. but i am going to have some clean socks. :smthumbup:


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Let me see if I get this straight here...

If I don't do chores I get MORE sex? 

Well hell!! Count me in!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

naga75 said:


> i personally have no problem helping out around the house _to a certain degree_.
> i work 10-14 hours each and every day with maybe one day "off" on the weekend. and usually that day i will take our daughter if my wife wants some time to herself to get her nails done or whatever women do.
> when i get home each evening, i relieve my wife of our 18mo daughter and she typically is my responsibility until her bedtime so she is with me most of that time.
> so i dont see how that would be aportioning more work to her. i work say an average of 12 hours. when i get home i have another 3-4 that i am the keeper of the beast (lol). so thats 15-16 hours a day that i "work". so we are really even on the amount of time that we both spend working per say, BUT this does not take into account the times that my daughter is in daycare while my wife is at the gym (typically 2 hours every other day), or when she is being babysat by one of her grandmothers (maybe 1-2 days a week for a couple hours). so, what i WONT do is come home, take our daughter, cook dinner, fold the laundry, sweep the floor and wash the dishes, while my wife complains about how tired she is from managing a toddler all day. aint gonna happen. and if that makes me a jerk or a sexist pig, so be it. but i am going to have some clean socks. :smthumbup:


In your case with you working 10-14 hours, 6 days a week, I agree that there is little that you should be doing in the way of housework chores. This is especially true if your child goes to day care some days, your wife has time for the gym, etc.

If I was a SAHM and your wife, with your hours, I would make sure that when you were off work, your time could be devoted to doing things like spending time with me, our children and some time just for you.

Each family it unique so each needs to structure their lives in a way that maximizes the benefits for all the family members.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> My ex was a SAHM for eleven years. This definitely wasn't 24/7 work. She might have been on call 24/7 but she had time to sleep, watch her soap operas, go to playgroup with the kids. There was a lot of down time for her. Also, she got relieved on the weekends.
> 
> I'm not belittling the work that she did and feel fortunate that I could afford for her to stay at home with the kids. But looking back, she could've done more.


You are right, I did not say it correctly. A SAHM is on call 24/7, not working the entire 24/7. My point was that a SAHM does not punch out of work at 5pm and not have to do anything else. 

By the way, going to the playground with kids is part of the work SAHMs do. So is taking them to museums, the library, swimming, and many other things that children need to be exposed to.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> In your case with you working 10-14 hours, 6 days a week, I agree that there is little that you should be doing in the way of housework chores. This is especially true if your child goes to day care some days, your wife has time for the gym, etc.
> 
> If I was a SAHM and your wife, with your hours, I would make sure that when you were off work, your time could be devoted to doing things like spending time with me, our children and some time just for you.
> 
> Each family it unique so each needs to structure their lives in a way that maximizes the benefits for all the family members.


i try to spend the majority of my off time with the family. i didnt do that before all this crap happened. i think that was a big part of why my wife did what she did. she thought i took her for granted, and to be honest, i did. i dont do that any more.
and she certainly doesnt do it to me any more.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> AR, I'm shocked that you ask this question.
> 
> How many times have we heard a betrayed husband lament about doing laundry, housework, cooking, etc. to please his wife and she ends up cheating on him.
> 
> This comes up so often it should be a proverb.


You may have hit on something!

*How many times has the wife done the laundry, housework, cooking, etc and he ends up cheating on her? Been there!*

What bothers me about your link and and an opposing one: Divorce less likely if husband helps with housework | Mail Online is that both articles have a picture of the wife sitting reading the newspaper while her husband vacuums. THAT is the problem! The chores are not "shared". 

*One is serving and the other puts their feet up and feels "entitled" and gets disrespectful.* 

No more in my household! Husband does his own laundry and assists in the kitchen nowadays, and is far more respectful and appreciative than he ever was when he wouldn't touch women's work with a ten foot pole.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I have some issues with the way this article was presented and conducted. 

It is presented as a cause/effect thing, but it does *NOT* prove cause and effect. It only shows a correlation between types of chores and frequency of sex. The actual cause of the correlation could be any number of other things. Two that jumped immediately into my mind as I was reading: 

- Maybe men who have a lower sex drive are more willing to do the core chores.
- Maybe the decrease in sex is because men doing these core chores is most common is busier households where there is less couples time together.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

This topic is another of the 'never ending debates' on TAM.... I didnt read this entire thread.

I agree with EleGirl just above.

Thing is... for us... we never really made assignments for who does what - but we have fallen into that anyway. But more importantly - I think we have each others back on work.

I cook, she cleans up. I work and make all the money, she works part time and does vast bulk of the heavy lifting on the domestic front - cleaning laundry, etc.

But you know what? If she doesnt do the dishes, I do them. No problem. She pulls the ladder out of the garage and cleaned the gutters out last fall because I didnt (about gave me heart failure seeing her on a ladder) and she had 'fun' doing it. She sees I have a headache and need a break - she takes the kids outside for an hour or 2. I do the same for her.

Maybe I am lucky - but we seem to have found a place where we just do what needs to be done but more importantly I think is that she and I instinctively know when we should step in and do something extra. No complaints, no nagging, no resentment - we do what needs to get done. I think this has really greased the skids in our relationship.

When I see people ranting about what 'he' does or what 'she' does or doesnt do... and people that feel they are doing more than their 'fair' share... it seems a little alien to me and I wonder how it got to that point. That probably souds insufferably obnoxious and self-congratulatory and I dont mean that. 

I think if it got overly one-sided, obviously thats a problem. We aint perfect by far - but doing our best - seems to be enough. We all have our limits.

We dont have a good sex life because of alpha or beta or doing chores or tit-for-tat or because its a reward or a a chore in itself... its because the relationship is pretty healthy. If its not healthy - 'who does the laundry' is not your solution.


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

anotherguy said:


> This topic is another of the 'never ending debates' on TAM.... I didnt read this entire thread.


I didn't read it all either, it's so not an issue for us (and I don't think I can verbalize why not, it just is that way). ETA: the fact we worked together (sharing an office) for 6 years before "dating" likely plays a role.

But below is one of my all time favorite TAM quotes:



Amplexor said:


> Pushing a vacuum around the living room for the hopes of sex is not foreplay, it's servitude.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

> we seem to have found a place where we just do what needs to be done but more importantly I think is that she and I instinctively know when we should step in and do something extra. No complaints, no nagging, no resenment - we do what needs to get done.


this. +1.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Then if this theory holds true, I am living proof of it. 

While STBXW was off on her many trips, I was delegated to the essentially-required farm work in addition to most of the household chores. She was not very fastidious in wanting anyone to pick up either around her or her lazy-ass teenaged kids. If I ever did that, I was greatly chastized that my doing so was only serving to "enable" them. My argument for doing it was simply that I wasn't one who wanted to live in a "nasty-assed," cluttered, unorganized house. Never had~never will!

Certain farm and home duties were strictly off limits like grass cutting~ because "only she could do that right."

Having said that, presumably for the last two years of our cohabitation, sex was at an absolute minimum. That's when I felt like little more than the plantation overseer. 

Through later post-separation discovery, I sadly discovered that she was rather busy running the highways facilitating her affairs with men from her past who she had reconnected with on FB.

So yes; I would have to give an endorsement to this theory! And that's because that at least from my perspective, just doing the chores, whether they were self-initiated or even ordered by the STBXW, in no way, was any guarantee that you would have any discerned prospects for additional love or affection from her: sexual or otherwise!


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

CharlieParker said:


> But below is one of my all time favorite TAM quotes...


That is funny.

I wonder however, if that is more fantasy or rhetorical nonsense than reality. I dont personally know anyone pushing a vacuum around hoping that it will get them sex - do you? The word 'choreplay' did spring into existence however - but I dont buy the 'if you vacuum I will blow you' storyline. I just don't.

If 2 people differ wildly on what they believe their respective responsibilities are in a home... that in itself is the problem - bigger than most realize I would guess - and hauling a dust-mop aint fixing it.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

"choreplay"
:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

anotherguy said:


> I wonder however, if that is more fantasy or rhetorical nonsense than reality. I dont personally know anyone pushing a vacuum around hoping that it will get them sex - do you?


Personally, no. But it's a part of a familiar storyline around here. Guys doing all/most of the chores and still wondering why they are not getting any.

BTW, glad you're back.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

CharlieParker said:


> I didn't read it all either, it's so not an issue for us (and I don;t think I can verbalize why not, it just is that way).


Same here. My husband will take out the trash, so will I. He shovels snow...so do I. We both will do dishes, sometimes together. Basically, if one sees something needs to be done, EITHER of us will pitch in. And *gasp* it never affected our sex life. Imagine that!


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

When my wife was a sahm she did most of the "female" chores if you will and would even cut the grass (I used to work 7 days 10-14 hrs) if I didn't have time.
Now that she has joined the work force and my work schedule is more flexible than hers I do many of the chores (most of the laundry and cooking I cook better anyhow haha) and we both do the cleaning.
I don't look at chores as his and hers (while there are man only things weed wacker, tree pruning very physical things)no offense ladies) It is our house our kids our mess so we are both equally responsible for it and as long as it gets done who cares about the who. Although my wife handles any puke even mine.
P.S. Why would I want her to come home and spend 3 or 4 hours on chores then she *would* be too tired for anything in the bedroom


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

old timer said:


> You can get an almost daily dose of MMSL insights on the Chateau Hartiste blog.
> 
> **Warning - NOT politically correct!**
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


speaking of which....

This House Is Clean (And Sex-Free) « Chateau Heartiste


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> If I was a SAHM and your wife, with your hours, I would make sure that when you were off work, *your time could be devoted to doing things like spending time with me, our children *and some time just for you.


While not taking a swipe at you, I do think that many SAHM (my wife included) like to have it both ways with the kids. When she has them, it is work, even if some of her time is taking them to the park or doing fun things with them. On the other hand, my time with them is always characterized as fun and relaxation, even when it is going over their homework or putting them to bed.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> We dont have a good sex life because of alpha or beta or doing chores or tit-for-tat or because its a reward or a a chore in itself... its because the relationship is pretty healthy. If its not healthy - 'who does the laundry' is not your solution.


But it can be part of getting it there. Part of creating a healthy relationship is making sure there is respect and generally equal effort. Division of chores can be an important part of it. Yes, it is a sympton, but it can also be outward evidence of a person's effort.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> While not taking a swipe at you, I do think that many SAHM (my wife included) like to have it both ways with the kids. When she has them, it is work, even if some of her time is taking them to the park or doing fun things with them. On the other hand, my time with them is always characterized as fun and relaxation, even when it is going over their homework or putting them to bed.


Agree... but how is that different from... well.. just about anything or anyone?

We all do this to one extent or another seems to me. The grass is greener, etc. People tend to look at the highlight reels of others lives and compare it to the 'full drama' of their own and wonder why things arent better for them.

Its not resignation to accept the life you have - nor is it license to give up and not continue to improve yourself... but I feel people would be much happier if they would stop straining their necks gawking at what they believe is 'a better life' without fully taking invetory about exactly what is good with what they have already. The crotchety old and happy people I know.. 'problems' and conflict just roll off their backs like water off ducks - they smile, shrug, adjust, and proceed with their lives as best they can.

Sorry.. useless, philosophical off topic rant.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Blonde said:


> You may have hit on something!
> 
> *How many times has the wife done the laundry, housework, cooking, etc and he ends up cheating on her? Been there!*
> 
> ...


Interesting.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Perhaps they are too tired?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

anotherguy said:


> Agree... but how is that different from... well.. just about anything or anyone?
> 
> We all do this to one extent or another seems to me. The grass is greener, etc. People tend to look at the highlight reels of others lives and compare it to the 'full drama' of their own and wonder why things arent better for them.
> 
> ...


I don't really understand your point. It is not much different, yet that does not mean it is not a real issue in this discussion, nor one that shoudl be ignored. Posting here is in part to let us explain our experiences and learn from others. If this is no different than anything else, then why post about this at all? Why even post a response?

For a time, my wife "quit work" the moment I walked into the house. The kids were all mine because taking care of them was different from what I did all day, and therefore not really work to me. She sat on the couch, relaxed and wound down, while I was expected to clean up. It was not the real problem, but it was a clear symptom of the issues we had. 

As we worked to improve things, one item we came to agreement on was that just as I start my second job when I get home, she needs to continue her first job when I arrive. We give each other breaks, but one showing up does not mean the other gets to punch out.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Quite a lot of guys behind the 8 ball.......

Jus sayin....


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## Adex (Aug 1, 2012)

I posted that article yesterday in the sex forum but it looks like it was deleted. Interesting. 

Just goes to show, man up to have more sex if you're not getting it.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Adex said:


> I posted that article yesterday in the sex forum but it looks like it was deleted. Interesting.
> 
> Just goes to show, man up to have more sex if you're not getting it.


It actually shows ****** all. It is an almost 20 year old study and is in reference to folk that are having sex less than 5 times per month.

If this is the standard you are after ie a very low sex count then by all means revel in the study. 

Man up, oh yeah and get minimal sex, woohoo. How about be a great man and get some real loving and unlimited sex.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Hm. I dunno. I do not stay home with children because it sucks. Period. I like working and interestingly enough, it's with other people's children, and I love it. :rofl: Go figure. 

I think if this is the traditional man/woman roles, then yea...but if both people are working full time, and splitting chores full time and doing things with the kids on a "take turn" basis, then it doesn't really apply at all.

We had sex almost every day and he vacuumed and did laundry! But...he never loved me, so what does it matter. It was good sex though. Yes.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

sinnister said:


> Sure...women "like" a man who will do dishes, laundry, vacuum, sweep and mop, clean the bathrooms and cook.
> 
> But in my opinion they won't desire them. And I think that's sort of the point. Progressive attitudes can't overcome biological programming. If a male is "acting" like a female there's little doubt in my mind that she would be less attracted to him than a male "acting" like a male.
> 
> I know it's not "en vogue" to say so, but I would think that's an obvious assumption?


Would that make her attracted to a bull ****?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

All this study shows is a correlation.

What's the first rule of statistics? Not everyone at once:

Correlation does not imply causation. We have no idea why men who do more of "her" chores are getting less sex. We only know that they are. Perhaps men with lower sex drives are drawn to domestic duties. 

This is what those of us in the hard sciences hate about psychology (and the amateurs everywhere who practice it).


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Link to the Chateau Hartiste blog I mentioned yesterday:


This House Is Clean (And Sex-Free) « Chateau Heartiste

**WARNING**
If you are a feminist or very beta guy, opening this link could cause your head to explode.

.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

old timer said:


> Link to the Chateau Hartiste blog I mentioned yesterday:
> 
> 
> This House Is Clean (And Sex-Free) « Chateau Heartiste
> ...


Anything that CH writes is head explosion material. His language is so misogynistic and revolting,the term knuckle scrapper comes to mind.
And it isn't just the feminists or beta men that are repulsed by the rubbish he writes. 

I really feel sorry for men that read this stuff and think it is how to have a good quality relationship.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Holland said:


> Anything that CH writes is head explosion material. His language is so misogynistic and revolting,the term knuckle scrapper comes to mind.
> And it isn't just the feminists or beta men that are repulsed by the rubbish he writes.
> 
> I really feel sorry for men that read this stuff and think it is how to have a good quality relationship.


Hear that "whirring" sound?
It's the hamster.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I always thought my husband was super sexy when he did heavy cleaning. LOVED IT. I'd sit and watch and then we'd have sex on the couch and then he'd clean some more.

So I don't think this study pertains to moi.


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## Repenting (Jan 7, 2013)

old timer said:


> Men - Keep Your Alpha Regardless http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/20...hierarchy.html


I am always fascinated by this link - do the people who post it not see how unintentionally hilarious it is? It sounds like a Dungeons & Dragons geek talking about different Wizard levels, right down to the quantitative measure at the bottom of each:

"Beta: Beta Wizards know a good collection of spells but can't match an Alpha Wizard in a battle. Betas are nonetheless often found with Alphas, seeking to improve their wizard powers.

Beta Wizards score hot chicks at dice roll +4"

There's useful information in MMSLP, but taking it to this level of navel gazing is seriously dorky.


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## Psy.D. C. Maso (Jan 22, 2013)

“What do married people miss the most about single life?”

Married men: Freedom.

Married women: Excitement.


Source: Chatueau heartiste



I dont agree with everything on that site, but I have to admit there is truth in the statement above. 
Me for my part enjoy my marriage more since I insist in having my freedom in certain corners.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

Repenting said:


> I am always fascinated by this link - do the people who post it not see how unintentionally hilarious it is? It sounds like a Dungeons & Dragons geek talking about different Wizard levels, right down to the quantitative measure at the bottom of each:
> 
> "Beta: Beta Wizards know a good collection of spells but can't match an Alpha Wizard in a battle. Betas are nonetheless often found with Alphas, seeking to improve their wizard powers.
> 
> ...


Haha totally thats a funny comparison!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Repenting said:


> There's useful information in MMSLP, but taking it to this level of navel gazing is seriously dorky.



I'm not a dorky navel-gazer - I'm an omphaloskeptic 

Seriously, having owned a bar/club for over twenty years, I have seen many players in action, their various "game" strategies and women's reactions to them. I do not agree with _everything_ on CH (probably only 95%, lol), but from my personal observations, I find Mr. Kay's notions to be uncannily accurate regarding male/female interaction - and not just in a bar setting. I've noticed the same behaviors/reactions even in church - a bit more subtle, obviously, but still noticeable to the trained eye.

re. the "alpha thing": I see so many men (and women) post here on TAM that really need to grow a set. Admittedly, my gonads had been hidden for quite some time when I first came here, but they have descended once again, and it feels great to be back in control of my life.

BTW, in his book, Mr Kay endorses a healthy mix of alpha and beta in a successful marriage.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Sheez there's like 3 versions of this thread.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

Repenting said:


> I am always fascinated by this link - do the people who post it not see how unintentionally hilarious it is? It sounds like a Dungeons & Dragons geek talking about different Wizard levels, right down to the quantitative measure at the bottom of each:
> 
> "Beta: Beta Wizards know a good collection of spells but can't match an Alpha Wizard in a battle. Betas are nonetheless often found with Alphas, seeking to improve their wizard powers.
> 
> ...


Brilliant. :rofl:


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

Holland said:


> I really feel sorry for men that read this stuff and think it is how to have a good quality relationship.


Haha that's funny.

I think you misinterpret CH's audience and his intentions.


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## Zatol Ugot? (Mar 5, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> The funny thing is, that statistics really can be made to say things that mean nothing. And everyone really can be an exception.
> 
> Think of an example - 100 couples. We want to know how often they have sex on average. So we ask all 200 of them and record their answers, add them up, and divide by 200 to get the average. *But the average may or may not mean a damned thing* - if 50 of them have sex once every year and the other 50 have sex twice a day, the average is going to be a number that none of them actually have. *So the average is meaningless*.


In your scenario above, it is true that the average really doesn't mean anything, but in the study cited, the researchers published in the American Sociological Review. I'm sure that the statistical analyses went beyond a little more than sum and divide, especially with the sample size of 4,500 households. 

With that being said, I did not find the numbers reported to be all that shocking or even barely statistically relevant. The study reported the chore "doers" had sex about 5 times per month and the chore "don'ts" about 6.6 times. Not a huge difference. Now if those numbers had been 5 times a month compared to 15 times a month, it would have raised my eyebrows a bit. Doing (or not doing) chores is just one of a myriad of factors in a relationship and there are always exceptions and outliers to whichever way you want to look at it.

...and to further put this story in perspective, I read an article last week that was saying the *exact opposite*. Kind of like the "eggs are good for you bad for you" debate.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

RandomDude said:


> Sheez there's like 3 versions of this thread.


This is the best one...


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

MMSL blog post on the subject (same author as the Chateau Hartiste blog, just a bit more politically correct):

MAN CLEAN. WOMAN LIKE. SEX NOW. | Married Man Sex Life

.


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