# Painful to Admit



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

This is very painful for me to admit, but I think it will be useful for the group and men specifically.
I tried to think back on how many women I had been with prior to marriage and the number is 20 including my ex wife.

Here goes.
When I first found out that women had orgasms was when I was married to my SECOND, (current wife.)
We were having sex and she started convulsing, etc. I had no friggin idea. Even after she came I just thought she was enjoying it, not actually having an orgasm.
I did not grow up in a conservative household. In fact, my mother encouraged me to have sex with as many women as I could.

Granted, I am old (54) and not much information was readily available like it is today. However, how can a man with 20 partners and an ex wife not know that women have orgasms???

I am not a stupid person. I am well traveled and well educated.

My thought is, if I was THAT stupid with all that was available to me, there must be many, many more men in my age group in similar circumstances.

What a pity.


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## kristin2349 (Sep 12, 2013)

It would have been much sadder had you never figured it out UMP, the good news is your wife doesn't have epilepsy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's called steady state.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

UMP said:


> When I first found out that women had orgasms was when I was married to my SECOND, (current wife.)
> We were having sex and she started convulsing, etc. I had no friggin idea. Even after she came I just thought she was enjoying it, not actually having an orgasm.


I really hate the sex "education" that boys get. It's more of a biology lesson without any useful information. There is real practical information that boys should be taught, IMHO. I also didn't realize there was a orgasm "event" that could happen and neither did my wife. I thought when people would reference a female orgasm, they were just talking about the general good feeling of sex that a woman experiences. One day she was like OMG, don't stop, that feels REALLY GREAT, I'm on the edge of something big... and then WOW. Then I knew.  It's been my goal to get her to orgasm every time, ever since. Oddly though, she doesn't always want an orgasm. That, I don't understand...


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> It's called steady state.


True, but this cycle should be broken.
Why can't we have REAL sex education in the United States?
I honestly think this might be a great business opportunity.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

UMP said:


> True, but this cycle should be broken.
> Why can't we have REAL sex education in the United States?
> I honestly think this might be a great business opportunity.


Because we are on our way to becoming a theocracy or prudeocracy?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I'm told that my RSXW did a whole lot of "convulsing" like that ~ except that, more often than not, it was in the company of other men!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

UMP,

Without a doubt you set the gold standard for candor and truthfulness. 

It's a gift. 




UMP said:


> This is very painful for me to admit, but I think it will be useful for the group and men specifically.
> I tried to think back on how many women I had been with prior to marriage and the number is 20 including my ex wife.
> 
> Here goes.
> ...


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> UMP,
> 
> Without a doubt you set the gold standard for candor and truthfulness.
> 
> It's a gift.


Anonymity has it's advantages.
My theory is, if I'm going to learn more about sex, I had better be honest, especially to myself.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

UMP said:


> True, but this cycle should be broken.
> Why can't we have REAL sex education in the United States?
> I honestly think this might be a great business opportunity.


Its called pornhub and its free ... just gotta figure how old before my boys start their first lesson >


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## Annette Tush (May 4, 2016)

Let me grab my coffee and camp here :nerd:


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

I can't believe it either. But I don't think it's something to be pained about.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I am dumbfounded by this. How can this be...?!?


I would think some/many guys know what an orgasm is but have no idea how to tell if the Women actually had one (throw faking it into the mix just to add some extra special confusion). Thanks to porn, I would guess many guys relying on t hat as their source would assume an O comes along with heavy moaning/screaming, when in reality women (some/many, don't know how common or not) actually seem to get quiet during.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> I am dumbfounded by this. How can this be...?!?


I'm going to guess a conservative upbrining. Perhaps not a religiously conservative household, but at least one in which speaking about sex and matters related to human sexuality was simply not done. It's been less than 100 years since it was shockingly taboo to directly mention any part of the human anatomy, particularly in mixed company, that was normally covered by clothing - including ankles, knees, hips, elbows and shoulders. Most people never even had words for any of the more personal parts of the body. People raised by parents who were that repressed weren't doing much in the way of sexual education for their own children either. Speaking frankly about basic human biology and sexuality is a VERY modern concept - say within the last generation or so - that not every family has yet embraced.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

OliviaG said:


> I am dumbfounded by this. How can this be...?!?


Me too...

I've never met a guy who didn't know a woman orgasms.

That's so bizarre to me. Like for real?!? Where are you from OP?


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

OliviaG said:


> I am dumbfounded by this. How can this be...?!?


I was rather sheltered and shy growing up. I was certainly afraid to ask and had nobody I felt comfortable talking to that would have known. My wife was my first. We were both virgins, so my situation is different, however, we did have sex almost daily for maybe months before she had the first big one. By contrast, I will freely admit that I had no clue what I was doing in there 

The take-home message for me is that I am really motivated to discuss with my kids, when they are old enough, practical information about sex and orgasms and impress on them an obligation to communicate and reciprocate for your partner. In addition to the usual, protect yourself... And I'm not just talking lip service on the communication aspect. I thought I communicated well with my wife when we were dating, but I had no clue what real communication was. I also believe that they should be free and have lots of sex. I think it's important to get to know what you like before you commit to someone for life.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

i wouldn't feel bad.

i was naive about a lot of stuff too. 

nobody taught me anything. sex ed in high school was a joke.
my mom/dad never said anything. you find out about stuff on the street, but a lot of times i didn't know what the hell
they were talking about.

i remember seeing a message scratched on a door saying "debbie fvked bill" in 6th grade.
didn't even know what it meant. what did he do to her?????

the first time i was with a girl in bed, i didn't have any idea what to do really.
she dragged me up to her room and took off all her clothes.
i remember thinking 'what the hell do i do?' 
i got through it ok, cause she was drunk, 
she didn't even remember how it went down the next day, only that 'we did it'.

i was real dumb, but who cares now anyway?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Makes sense. My H and I were in a (very upscale) hotel one night, and in the suite above us some woman carried on screaming and moaning loudly for hours, which really impressed H. I was laughing at him, telling him; if you are ever with someone who does that, it's an indication that SHE'S FAKING, big-time. I mean *puhleeeease*!
> 
> I'm not known to be quiet, but this was off the scales in terms of theatrics. *And he would have bought it (that was the shocking part, to me)*!


Yup, the bolded thanks to porn and even main stream media, that is the perception. On top of that, I think enough women know guys will fall for this so naturally their way of faking is to be over the top.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

UMP said:


> This is very painful for me to admit, but I think it will be useful for the group and men specifically.
> I tried to think back on how many women I had been with prior to marriage and the number is 20 including my ex wife.
> 
> Here goes.
> When I first found out that women had orgasms was when I was married to my SECOND, (current wife.)


Hmmm... I'm older than you and knew that women had orgasms.

But I didn't have 20 women that wanted to have sex with me, so I had to do the research!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Maybe, but I sure never learned about sex from my parents. They were not conservative, but nobody ever gave me "the talk". Still, somehow I knew stuff. I can't even tell you now how I knew. But I knew.


Same here, and let's be honest, even if parents have the sex talk, what details do they go in to? I would think most common would be hitting the main idea that a penis goes in a vagina, love, and pregnancy could be the result. How many parents go into details about orgasm, etc...???


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Could likely do a good spoof on a hypothetical father son talk.

Lots of great material - regarding the disasterous potential for misinterpretation.

But IMO - the largest sexual education gap in today's world - pertains to what I call: crossing the chasm

How to transition from the initial phase - where both spouses feel spontaneous desire - to a context where one of them mainly feels responsive desire. 

That chasm is the catalyst for many sexless marriages. And it requires a focus on truth unfettered by ego. Like @UMP has. 

For example the HD spouse MUST slow their pacing in a responsive context. Failure to do that single thing - almost guarantees a bad sexual experience for the responsive desire partner. 

Try telling the average guy that he needs to keep the dominance theme but let his wife drive the pace - and he just looks at you in confusion. It seems so contradictory. But it isn't. 



EllisRedding said:


> Same here, and let's be honest, even if parents have the sex talk, what details do they go in to? I would think most common would be hitting the main idea that a penis goes in a vagina, love, and pregnancy could be the result. How many parents go into details about orgasm, etc...???


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Could likely do a good spoof on a hypothetical father son talk.


"Well, you see son, lift up your right hand. Put down your ring finger and group your index/middle finger together. This is called "The Shocker" and is the key to making a woman happy!"

:grin2:


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## 2ndchanceGuy (Sep 28, 2015)

I guess I was lucky I found the the book my parents had hidden in their bedroom. "Everything you always wanted to know about sex" . I was 15 , to this day I have never read a book cover to cover so fast LOL


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I started having sex early……how early, I will not admit LOL. But my first husband was the first to give me the O when we were dating. Having had multiple partners before him I found it odd it had never happened before him once I knew what it actually WAS. I honestly don’t think my current husband had given a woman one before me either, just based on the way things have played out for us. He stated he’d only given oral maybe 3-4 times in his life before me and that he didn’t like it. But once he gave it to me and I had an O, he became addicted to it. I have to fight him off at times because he loves it so much. I think a lot of it can be contributed to a lot of men thinking that women should be able to O from PIV and that’s not always easy for many women. I myself am highly O-mic from oral but have only had a handful from straight PIV. Also, a lot of women have a hard time getting to the O and from experience, a lot of men will give up before she’s even close.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> I started having sex early…….


I wish, my wife is not a morning person so I have to wait until at least after I get home from work


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> I wish, my wife is not a morning person so I have to wait until at least after I get home from work


Lmao! Morning sex starts the day off the best way!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> Because we are on our way to becoming a theocracy or prudeocracy?


I would argue we are heading in the opposite direction.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Never learned anything about sex from my parents, was very shy and basically didn't date until college. Being a nerd though, after a couple of dates I got books and studied - I couldn't stand the idea of not getting good grades in something.....

I do wish sex education was much better. There is an awful lot that many people don't know, and for some reason don't want to learn.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

UMP said:


> Here goes.
> When I first found out that women had orgasms was when I was married to my SECOND, (current wife.)
> We were having sex and she started convulsing, etc. I had no friggin idea. Even after she came I just thought she was enjoying it, not actually having an orgasm.
> I did not grow up in a conservative household. In fact, my mother encouraged me to have sex with as many women as I could.


It's not really that sad or weird, IMO. Sure, it's pretty common knowledge, but - if none of those women ever communicated anything to you about that, how would you know?

My ex wife and I figured out the whole g-spot orgasm/squirting thing, with no prior knowledge that it was even possible. It wasn't until a few years later that either of us discovered it was a thing that people seemed to know about.

I didn't know a thing about the clitoris until my 3rd partner (sorry, first two! I must have fell asleep in sex ed class when that was a topic...)

And somewhat related to your epiphany, it took me until I was in my early 20's to realize that women are not always happy if they don't orgasm. I would say I was blissfully unaware or downright oblivious, as opposed to selfish, though.

That said, surely you had watched some porn (on VHS?) before this? It's fake, yes, but what did you think those women were doing, writhing around and moaning or screaming?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Yup, the bolded thanks to porn and even main stream media, that is the perception. On top of that, I think enough women know guys will fall for this so naturally their way of faking is to be over the top.


We got the adult film industry to thank here...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Sex education in our culture is absolutely pathetic. Frankly, I think it's amazing anyone our age, in our 50's, ever figured out how to do sex! We had no internet, porn was not easily accessible, and the library was shockingly inept in stocking a shelf or two with solid sex information. Tab A into slot B was all we were told.

That's why all of my daughters grew up knowing a hell of lot more than their peers. That's why I get text messages from their friends asking sex questions. That's why their friends ask them to text me with sex concerns. I want my girls fully informed and owning one of the most important sources of happiness and contentment we've all been born with, our sexuality and sexual responses.

Just today I had a conversation with my 16 year old daughter about orgasms. This is not the first time we've discussed them. We've had group chats together with all my daughters and sometimes in the presence of their friends and even a boyfriend or two. Sex is an open topic in my house because I'll be dammed if I send my girls out into the world not knowing and not owning their sexuality.

......

I just fell off my soap box...

Back on my soap box...

Please do not allow your sons to learn about sex through porn. It will make him a terrible lover, he will suck at sex, and in his 30's his wife will find some other man who knows the real way to do sex.

Please do not allow your daughters to be coy about sex. Teach them to own their bodies and their sexuality. Teach them to make a decision before they leave the house on a date, how far are they comfortable going and how comfortable are they at drawing the line, or accepting the line their dates draw.

Sex is negotiation. There is no room for coyness or evasiveness. Own it sister!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I was talking to a friend of my niece, who is a lesbian. The friend had never been with a male, only females. She said she had kissed many boys in high school but beyond kissing she wasn't interested. In college she had her first naked sexual experience with another woman. She laughed and said she couldn't imagine being with a male because "only another woman would know how to make it good." I laughed and said no male knows how to make it good until a woman tells him how to make it good.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> I was talking to a friend of my niece, who is a lesbian. The friend had never been with a male, only females. She said she had kissed many boys in high school but beyond kissing she wasn't interested. In college she had her first naked sexual experience with another woman. She laughed and said she couldn't imagine being with a male because "only another woman would know how to make it good." I laughed and said no male knows how to make it good until a woman tells him how to make it good.


This is true.

But conversely, let's talk about how to get someone good at BJ's...

Or oral for females for that matter.

It will take the person to which it is being done to tell them how to do it.



Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Don't worry man. I didn't know what a queef was until a couple years ago, until the first time I heard one.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> I am dumbfounded by this. How can this be...?!?


19 of those partners were only once or twice. My mother was constantly telling me to have sex and the Church was telling me no. So I got caught in between. No long term relationships until my first wife. She left after about 9 months. I wonder why?:grin2:


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Capster said:


> I can't believe it either. But I don't think it's something to be pained about.


Yes it is.
I am 54 and having some absolutely wonderful sex.
I wasted SO many years. At 54 you just CAN'T swing from trees while having sex. At 23 I could have done it while jumping from an airplane, if you get my drift.

Although, if I knew then what I know now, I would probably be dead from aids. Even with those 20 partners, I only used protection once.

On second thought, I guess you're right. All things work together for good.


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## Capster (Jun 10, 2014)

UMP said:


> Yes it is.
> I am 54 and having some absolutely wonderful sex.
> I wasted SO many years. At 54 you just CAN'T swing from trees while having sex. At 23 I could have done it while jumping from an airplane, if you get my drift.
> 
> ...


Many of us go through the same mental gymnastics. I was married to a woman with a serious fear of sex to the point of it being painful for her. Eventually she cut out all emotion that could lead to sex, and wouldn't even kiss. I stayed and tried to work through it. Had one kid thinking it would open things up so to speak. Then another, then I didn't want to miss out on raising my kids.

Long story short, I'm still married to her after 27 years but she is completely changed. Although LD, she has learned to be a perfect wife and satisfies me sexually in almost every way. 

But I still think, was it worth the best 20 years of my life to get to that point? Perhaps the price was too high. But hindsight is a pretty worthless thing.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

BetrayedDad said:


> Me too...
> 
> I've never met a guy who didn't know a woman orgasms.
> 
> That's so bizarre to me. Like for real?!? Where are you from OP?


United States.
54 years old, which makes a difference. When I was of "prime" age, all this technology in communication was simply not available. I grew up going to Church BY MYSELF. Parents did not want to go. Mom told me to have sex with "as many women as possible" and the Church said "no."
Had my first beer in college.
I could have had sex with a thousand women, but I was holding myself back CONSTANTLY. All those hookups were basically one night stands. Can't learn much that way.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

alexm said:


> That said, surely you had watched some porn (on VHS?) before this? It's fake, yes, but what did you think those women were doing, writhing around and moaning or screaming?


I guess I thought they were enjoying themselves. I did not perceive a special "event."


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> That's why all of my daughters grew up knowing a hell of lot more than their peers. That's why I get text messages from their friends asking sex questions.


Wow that's fantastic. That's exactly the kind of environment I want to have with my son and daughter. My wife would never do this and she dreads the talk. I am looking forward to it. I wasted so much of my life not knowing things that I feel I was cheated out of so much fun. I refuse to let that happen to my kids, but I don't want it coming off wrong. How did you approach it and at what age? 

This might be crazy, but for starters, I was thinking it actually wouldn't be so bad if the kids heard us having sex. Right now, we do it silently in the dark because my wife does not want to risk the kids knowing that we have sex. I think about other cultures... native americans and plenty of cultures have sex *in front of* their kids and it doesn't mess up the kids. In fact, in our society, it can be very well concealed and I think that may be more damaging. If you think back, for thousands of years, there was no privacy whatsoever when having sex. Having a separate room for the parents has probably only become common in the last 200 years. Were all kids messed up back then because they saw their parents having sex? I would argue no and in fact had better sex ed than I did.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I knew about a female orgasm before a male one. I was a late bloomer!

I lost my virginity at age 16. Didn't have an orgasm and kept thinking the girl was supposed to start moaning and stuff (from porn). We were in a car. After about 30 minutes I faked an orgasm to get it stop. 

My next girlfriend taught me about female orgasm. She loved oral and touching but wouldn't allow intercourse. I was fine with that as my one experience wasn't too great. She could deep throat and tried so hard to get me to orgasm, but it never happened. We dated maybe 10 months. She had an orgasm almost every time we were together. She was good at showing what she needed and letting me know what to do.

I started dating my next girlfriend in grade 12. I was 17. That is when I had my first wet dream. Later I had my first orgasm in front of a girl. Before that, I just wasn't physically mature enough to orgasm.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> Makes sense. My H and I were in a (very upscale) hotel one night, and in the suite above us some woman carried on screaming and moaning loudly for hours, which really impressed H. I was laughing at him, telling him; if you are ever with someone who does that, it's an indication that SHE'S FAKING, big-time. I mean *puhleeeease*!
> 
> I'm not known to be quiet, but this was off the scales in terms of theatrics. And he would have bought it (that was the shocking part, to me)!


This really disturbs me.

One of my favorite memories from when I was 19 was a girl that picked me up at a party. She took me home and rode me hard. She was very vocal. I was certain she came multiple times. I know I did and back then I didn't need to stop at all to recover.

She was the wildest sex memory I have. And you ruined it.

PS. I still think it was real.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> This is true.
> 
> But conversely, let's talk about how to get someone good at BJ's...
> 
> ...


Precisely! I regret that my comment left the impression that only males lack education about the opposite sex. However, a male has a MUCH easier time getting his than a female does hers. Even if she isn't very good at giving head, he'll find a way to get there most times.

The evidence of a male reach climax is obvious. Not so for women. Sex education, tab A into slot B until tab A ejaculates. That's what we knew. We knew to expect ejaculation. It burns me up every time I remember those film strips we watched. The penis got erect, then it ejaculated semen containing sperm. 

I remember in 12th grade we had sex ed once again only this time it included STI and birth control. A boy asked a question about a girl's clit and I remember thinking what the hell is that and what a funny name for a body part. I don't think the answer actually included information about the mysterious clit but I do remember the teacher (a male) said something about the need for lubrication, which also puzzled me but I kept silent.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

wantshelp said:


> Wow that's fantastic. That's exactly the kind of environment I want to have with my son and daughter. My wife would never do this and she dreads the talk. I am looking forward to it. I wasted so much of my life not knowing things that I feel I was cheated out of so much fun. I refuse to let that happen to my kids, but I don't want it coming off wrong. How did you approach it and at what age?


Have the talk early and often. There is no one talk, it's an ongoing conversation. Daughter at 10 talks about Edward Cullen Mom wonders aloud what it would be like to be kissed by someone with fangs, we laugh trying to imitate getting our lips around sharp pointy fangs. Then Mom wonders aloud how it is that vampires, frozen in a changeless and ageless state, without a heart beat, get an erection in the first place. Daughter squeals "ew yuck Mom!" Then mom wonders how the vampire male has sperm when the vampire female is infertile. Which launches us into a discussion on the unfair under representation of women's sexuality in popular media.

Daughter, same age, talks about a boy she has a crush on and danced with at the once a month middle school drop in fun night. Discussion about kissing a boy ensues. Topic of boundaries comes up, Mom lays down her rules for that age, kissing only in private (then Mom secretly manipulates situations so that there never is any privacy for daughter to make out) and includes prompts for daughter to think of ways to say no.

At what age is it okay for your son and or daughter to make out?
At what age is it okay for you daughters breasts to be touched on top of clothing?
At what age under clothing?
At what age genital touching on top of clothing?
At what age under clothing?
Should that age also include genital touching to climax? 

If you can't answer these questions how do you expect your child to navigate these turbulent waters? This is why abstinence only education is about dumbest thing ever conceived. Send your child into the world ignorant and you might get a virgin at the alter, but you're almost guaranteed to orchestrate a bad sex life for your child. 





> This might be crazy, but for starters, I was thinking it actually wouldn't be so bad if the kids heard us having sex. Right now, we do it silently in the dark because my wife does not want to risk the kids knowing that we have sex. I think about other cultures... native americans and plenty of cultures have sex *in front of* their kids and it doesn't mess up the kids. In fact, in our society, it can be very well concealed and I think that may be more damaging. If you think back, for thousands of years, there was no privacy whatsoever when having sex. Having a separate room for the parents has probably only become common in the last 200 years. Were all kids messed up back then because they saw their parents having sex? I would argue no and in fact had better sex ed than I did.


Exactly. I think it's wrong for parents to pretend they don't have sex. Their children learn how to have good marriages by watching their parents marriages. If they grow up thinking, as almost all of my peers did, that parents only had sex when they wanted a baby and so families with 8 kids had parents who had sex 8 times.

My kids have grown up hearing us. When they mention it, and the do mention it smiling ear to ear, they are told that sex is not something to be ashamed about and they should be happy to know their parents sex life is active.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

SadSamIAm said:


> This really disturbs me.
> 
> One of my favorite memories from when I was 19 was a girl that picked me up at a party. She took me home and rode me hard. She was very vocal. I was certain she came multiple times. I know I did and back then I didn't need to stop at all to recover.
> 
> ...


Wife and I and the kids were on a cruise a bit over a year ago, and one night I could hear - clearly - the people in the cabin below us engaging in some wild sex. It was muffled enough that you couldn't hear them talking, but you could sure hear her...

Next morning, I asked my wife if she heard it, too. She bluntly and flatly says "yeah, she was faking". :surprise: I burst out laughing. I love my wife 

I wonder how often women are actually faking it, or just exaggerating it for their partner, though. I know I get more turned on when there's some noise. Unfortunately, my wife is now conditioned to be fairly quiet (but not silent), due to kids in the house. When we were dating and alone, she was much more vocal. Even when we have the house to ourselves, she doesn't make a lot of noise  One ear is probably always listening for one of them to come home!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

OliviaG said:


> In fact I've had the neighbours bang on the bedroom wall in our apartment after they've heard too much (which was really, really embarrassing).


Prudes. I've never done that in my life. If two people are having a good ol' time and I can happen to hear them, good on them!

Unless you're screaming profanities, that is. Then I can understand. :grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> I wonder how often women are actually faking it, or just exaggerating it for their partner, though. I know I get more turned on when there's some noise.


I have some recordings of this dude speaking in french (presumably some really sexy/romantic stuff, no clue what he is actually saying ). When my W and I are in throws of passion, when she is not looking I like to play this recording and lip sync what he is saying, gets the W all hot and bothered thinking that I am showering her with all this sexy french talk ...

>


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> How can you exaggerate it without it wrecking the moment though, this is why I think it's downright faking. Because if my thoughts are with having to willfully exaggerate (i.e. act, put on a show) then I'm not able to concentrate on enjoying what I'm feeling - it would be counterproductive.


The issue, where do you draw the line between being more vocal (more for encouragement / acknowledgement to your SO) vs faking it? For example, when I am getting a BJ (might be hard to picture when combined with looking at my avatar...) I am content just sitting back and enjoying, don't need to be vocal. However, at times I think my W may wonder if I am really enjoying, so I may dial up the vocal slightly just so she knows I am doing quite alright. Obviously this is different then if I started yelling stuff out like I had turrets lol.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I can't describe where the line is, but there definitely is one, and I know it when I hear it!


You've never heard my French :wink2:


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Its a shame that two people who love each other can have so much trouble communicating about sex. Its the one person who you should be able to say hey I like when you do this and they should respond you mean like this with a wicked smile.


in an ideal world.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

UMP: Don't feel so bad. At least at 54 you know what a female orgasm is and you know your wife has had one with you. I am older than you, no woman has ever had an orgasm with me, and no woman ever will. So I will die never knowing what it is to be in the presence of a female orgasm. THAT is painful to accept.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Its called pornhub and its free ... just gotta figure how old before my boys start their first lesson >


Oh my effin gawd, I can't believe you suggested that. Even in jest.

Porn is like absolutely the *worst* *worst* information sourve for learning about women's sexuality. Maybe if all you care about is what turns men on you might learn something. But you will only learn how to treat women like interchangeable objects.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
for professional porn, I completely agree.

There is some amateur porn though that does show good realistic lovemaking. Abby Winters does some good stuff. 






always_alone said:


> Oh my effin gawd, I can't believe you suggested that. Even in jest.
> 
> Porn is like absolutely the *worst* *worst* information sourve for learning about women's sexuality. Maybe if all you care about is what turns men on you might learn something. But you will only learn how to treat women like interchangeable objects.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Oh my effin gawd, I can't believe you suggested that. Even in jest.
> 
> Porn is like absolutely the *worst* *worst* information sourve for learning about women's sexuality. Maybe if all you care about is what turns men on you might learn something. But you will only learn how to treat women like interchangeable objects.


wow, someone needs to lighten up a little ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

OliviaG said:


> How can you exaggerate it without it wrecking the moment though, this is why I think it's downright faking. Because if my thoughts are with having to willfully exaggerate (i.e. act, put on a show) then I'm not able to concentrate on enjoying what I'm feeling - it would be counterproductive.


I don't know, but I suspect my wife did this when we started dating!

For the first year or so, she was not only loud, but vocal. As in "f*** me" "harder" and even "I love your **** inside me!" Lots of talking, of the sort you'd see in porn. But she was also definitely enjoying herself, as much as she does now, if not more.

The first few times, it was disconcerting, as nobody had ever talked like that to me during sex. Then I got used to it and liked it. Then it stopped. 

Honestly, though, it seemed as though it was for my benefit. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it didn't seem natural. But it sounded natural, if that makes sense. It wasn't a wooden delivery like a bad actor.

It's as if somebody told her at some point that they liked women who are vocal during sex, and it became part of her repertoire or something and she did it ever since. I think that, perhaps, when we started getting more serious, she realized it wasn't necessary, maybe, or that it made it seem like our sex was more casual than loving. Over the years, she's become much more of a loving sex partner, as opposed to the first 3-4 years where it was, pardon my French, straight f****** for her, and that's how she treated it.

But seriously, she doesn't watch porn, and I don't get the impression she ever did, at least willingly. But she picked it up somewhere!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

UMP said:


> Granted, I am old (54) and not much information was readily available like it is today. However, how can a man with 20 partners and an ex wife not know that women have orgasms???


I caught what you said on that other thread & thought that was a little crazy ... I think this just goes to show.. no matter what OUR STORY or experiences are...it has a huge effect on our worldview... 

There are so many things I have read on this forum.. that I never realized, or that others FELT like that.. being a "WOW" moment for me too.... 

We were on the other extreme.. No experience.. only been with each other.. orgasmed the 1st time he touched me...(and I knew I would!)...some moments are etched in our memory..

Not that I thought much about this.. but I ASSUMED this is what it's like for all couples , or women.. what did I know!!..so learning this wasn't the case was surprising TO ME...

I've been having orgasms since like age 11 ...it's not something I talked about to my girlfriend though!! I do remember how Taboo masturbation talk was.. I would have been so embarrassed, turned as red as a lobster had that came up in conversation. 

Myself & husband didn't talk or read much of anything about sex (well he did in Playboy mags).. but I didn't... Looking back...if we had more problems.. no doubt we would have tried more things.. positions, etc.. we were awfully vanilla actually...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> wow, someone needs to lighten up a little ...


Easy for you to say. But the reality is that lots and lots of young people are using porn as their sex education and learning all the wrong lessons because of it. Lessons that almost invariably hurt women a lot more than they hurt men.

@UMP I just wanted to say that I totally appreciate your candor in thus thread. Most guys won't admit to any sort of sexual lack or vulnerability, but I really don't think your experience is all that unique. Even guys who have slept around a whole lot can be quite clueless about women, and while they for sure know what makes hem happy, they really have no idea about pleasing a woman.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EllisRedding said:


> The issue, where do you draw the line between being more vocal (more for encouragement / acknowledgement to your SO) vs faking it? For example, when I am getting a BJ (might be hard to picture when combined with looking at my avatar...) I am content just sitting back and enjoying, don't need to be vocal. However, at times I think my W may wonder if I am really enjoying, so I may dial up the vocal slightly just so she knows I am doing quite alright. Obviously this is different then if I started yelling stuff out like I had turrets lol.


This is how my H is too...the most I will get out of him is how good it feels.. it is exciting to get a little feedback though...it's why I tell him I love it when he pushes my head down.. it speaks exhilaration , a "can't get enough, Keep it there baby!" type of thing.. 

The whole noise thing & O's... and maybe it sounds boring.. but it doesn't mean a woman is or isn't having an O...I've always been on the quiet side... we've been so quiet.. we'd do it with our kids passed out on the bedroom floor a # of times when they were younger.... they never woke up...

Just had to be more conscious that our breathing wasn't too heavy is all .. this was always how he knew - the acceleration of my breathing & the sudden high rocking I wanted, these physical signs....I've only become more vocal in the past 8 yrs... just because it's FUN, adds flavor, enthusiasm...but we can be awfully quiet too..


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

alexm said:


> Wife and I and the kids were on a cruise a bit over a year ago, and one night I could hear - clearly - the people in the cabin below us engaging in some wild sex. It was muffled enough that you couldn't hear them talking, but you could sure hear her...



Maybe the ship was sinking. Lucky for you, your cabin stayed above the waterline.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Easy for you to say. But the reality is that lots and lots of young people are using porn as their sex education and learning all the wrong lessons because of it. Lessons that almost invariably hurt women a lot more than they hurt men.
> 
> .


It is easy for anyone to say, it was a joke lol ... If you read my other posts in this thread (ya know, the more serious ones) I comment about the issues of porn, so not sure why you zoned in on the obvious joke to make a point...

I will add Pornhub to my no jest excel file for future reference :grin2:


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is how my H is too...the most I will get out of him is how good it feels.. it is exciting to get a little feedback though...*it's why I tell him I love it when he pushes my head down.. it speaks exhilaration , a "can't get enough, Keep it there baby!" type of thing.. *
> 
> The whole noise thing & O's... and maybe it sounds boring.. but it doesn't mean a woman is or isn't having an O...I've always been on the quiet side... we've been so quiet.. we'd do it with our kids passed out on the bedroom floor a # of times when they were younger.... they never woke up...
> 
> Just had to be more conscious that our breathing wasn't too heavy is all .. this was always how he knew - the acceleration of my breathing & the sudden high rocking I wanted, these physical signs....I've only become more vocal in the past 8 yrs... just because it's FUN, adds flavor, enthusiasm...but we can be awfully quiet too..


The bolded, I actually noticed the same as well with my W, she actually seemed to get a bit of a high just from getting that type of feedback and knowing I was really enjoying it. Makes sense b/c likewise I can appreciate getting feedback as well, and I do understand it is probably a lot harder for my W to read me vs me read her.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> It is easy for anyone to say, it was a joke lol ... If you read my other posts in this thread (ya know, the more serious ones) I comment about the issues of porn, so not sure why you zoned in on the obvious joke to make a point...
> 
> I will add Pornhub to my no jest excel file for future reference :grin2:


So I went back and checked: yep two posts acknowledging basically what I said, that men get their info about women from porn. 

Joke about whatever you want. But I'm still not sure why this is funny. :scratchhead: Porn is one of the main reasons women expect to feel pain rather than pleasure from sex. No matter how I try, it doesn't make me laugh.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I suspect that many women put on the dog just to get it over with. She may have thought she was in the mood but it just didn't happen.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

As surprising as I find the OP's experience, I think that anybody nowadays can learn a lot just from watching television. I learned 'milf' from Sons of Anarchy.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> So I went back and checked: yep two posts acknowledging basically what I said, that men get their info about women from porn.
> 
> Joke about whatever you want. But I'm still not sure why this is funny. :scratchhead: Porn is one of the main reasons women expect to feel pain rather than pleasure from sex. No matter how I try, it doesn't make me laugh.


Oh my effin gawd... So how many women expect to feel pain from sex? Do you think it is possible, that many people can watch porn and are still able to discern what could be pleasurable vs what could be painful???

As mentioned, this issue we were talking about has more to do with guys not necessarily understanding what an O is, or moreso how to recognize when someone has an O (which yes, you can blame porn, but you also have to blame both guys and gals).


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Oh my effin gawd... So how many women expect to feel pain from sex? Do you think it is possible, that many people can watch porn and are still able to discern what could be pleasurable vs what could be painful???


Unfortunately, there is indeed a huge issue here. Recent studies actually show that some 30% of women do not orgasm or expect to orgasm. A huge number fake it. And really and truly, when surveyed they actually report that they expect sex to be pleasurable for their partner but painful for them.

It is a tragedy and a travesty. And yet it would seem a laughing matter to men who think porn is a super cool representation of what sex should look like.

And yes, women too are learning these awful messages from porn, and go into sexual relationships thinking that sex is all for him and not for her. And yes, this absolutely propagates the ignorance around women's sexuality.

Still not seeing the humour in all of this. :scratchhead:


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

I remember trying to make my first love cum when I was 16. All that pounding and still it would not happen - it took a lot of work but eventually we got there. It was always like this with her - it was not easy to reach that point but worthwhile when we got there. For her that is; by then I was just plain exhausted.

How did I know about orgasms? It must have been learned during high school sex ed. No one I knew spoke sensitively about sex at that age. It was always "Did you f**k her?", did you do this, did she do that. Never did she cum. I suppose we were far too self possessed and ignorant in the early years; more interested in the score card.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> Unfortunately, there is indeed a huge issue here. Recent studies actually show that some 30% of women do not orgasm or expect to orgasm. A huge number fake it. And really and truly, when surveyed they actually report that they expect sex to be pleasurable for their partner but painful for them.
> 
> It is a tragedy and a travesty. And yet it would seem a laughing matter to men who think porn is a super cool representation of what sex should look like.
> 
> ...


Yes, because all us guys just sit around the fireplace laughing our heads off at how porn is such a super cool representation of what sex should look like :scratchhead:

How you extrapolate on a comment that was made as both sarcastic and in jest is amusing in itself, but to each their own ... you aren't laughing, my goal wasn't to make you laugh, so sounds like a win all around :wink2:


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> Yes, because all us guys just sit around the fireplace laughing our heads off at how porn is such a super cool representation of what sex should look like :scratchhead:
> 
> How you extrapolate on a comment that was made as both sarcastic and in jest is amusing in itself, but to each their own ... you aren't laughing, my goal wasn't to make you laugh, so sounds like a win all around :wink2:


I dunno about all you guys. But *your* very first response turned something honest and thoughtful into a joke, suggesting porn as the solution to all male sexual questions. So no extrapolation required. Indeed now you are going out of your way to put me down because I don't find it funny.

So tell me. What is the message?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Horizon said:


> All that pounding and still it would not happen - it took a lot of work but eventually we got there. I


And with some techniques beyond pounding, you probably would have got there much more easily and frequently. Too bad that you didn't have access to decent information.

What strikes me about these stories, is that even as a totally naive young girl who had never had sex, I knew what men liked and wanted sexually. I knew they "required" orgasm, that they needed certain kinds of stimulation, loved bjs. You name it. Information about male sexuality was everywhere. But for girls? We were just there to please the boys.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> I dunno about all you guys. But *your* very first response turned something honest and thoughtful into a joke, suggesting porn as the solution to all male sexual questions. So no extrapolation required. Indeed now you are going out of your way to put me down because I don't find it funny.
> 
> So tell me. What is the message?


Oh geez, do you even understand sarcasm??? My first post was meant as a sarcastic comment (i.e. obviously I am not sitting here with a calendar waiting for my boys to get to a certain age so they can get their first pornhub lesson :slap. Somehow you decided to take that so you could stand up on a soapbox, make a dramatic "oh my effin gawd" statement, go on about the travesty of porn, some of the points that many of us have already been making in this very thread lol. Not looking to put anyone down, just don't follow the logic of your posts from my OP.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> AFAIK, women expect to feel pleasure from sex. I reject the statement you wrote in bold, above.


Agreed that many women do know better, and expect pleasure. Sadly, though quite a large number expect pain and/or no orgasm. And this has been established by quite extensive research on the topic. It is a widespread problem, whether people want to admit it or not.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

always_alone said:


> And with some techniques beyond pounding, you probably would have got there much more easily and frequently. Too bad that you didn't have access to decent information.
> 
> What strikes me about these stories, is that even as a totally naive young girl who had never had sex, I knew what men liked and wanted sexually. I knew they "required" orgasm, that they needed certain kinds of stimulation, loved bjs. You name it. Information about male sexuality was everywhere. But for girls? We were just there to please the boys.


We were kids - neither of us had a clue really. We obviously knew about oral and we did try a couple of kinky things but not necessarily with orgasm in mind. The fact was she could achieve orgasm but it took ages via PIV. Neither of us discussed techniques because we were both ignorant. You are right though, with some info it could have been different.

And I would have been willing, as by nature I love to please. Unfortunately for teens in the 70's, in my experience, it was mostly about getting it on, so to speak. And don't forget, sex means different things to people, even at an early age. My first love dumped me because she had an 'appetite' - she was a strong woman and she wanted more.

Not better sex necessarily but also the pleasure of the power it gave her - IMO. I spoke later with a friend who was intimate with her after my time and he told me it was OK - which was not a derogatory comment and not a cover-up. We were all too young to know the finer pleasures of sex.

Looking back I can't be sure that we knew more about male sexual needs than female sexual needs. I think it was more about hormones and status.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

OliviaG said:


> Is there actual research? I'd like to read it if you can point me to a reference. I'm really curious.


Yes, quite a lot of it. 

Unfortunately a lot is also behind a pay wall, but here are a few articles and summaries, plus a national survey.

Anal heterosex among young people and implications for health promotion: a qualitative study in the UK -- Marston and Lewis 4 (8) -- BMJ Open

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201602/why-so-many-women-don-t-have-orgasms

The Orgasm Gap - The Daily Beast

National Survey of Sexual Health and Behavior



> About 85% of men report that their partner had an orgasm at the most recent sexual event; this compares to the 64% of women who report having had an orgasm at their most recent sexual event.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Horizon said:


> I remember trying to make my first love cum when I was 16. All that pounding and still it would not happen - it took a lot of work but eventually we got there. It was always like this with her - it was not easy to reach that point but worthwhile when we got there. For her that is; by then I was just plain exhausted.
> 
> How did I know about orgasms? It must have been learned during high school sex ed.* No one I knew spoke sensitively about sex at that age. It was always "Did you f**k her?", did you do this, did she do that. Never did she cum. I suppose we were far too self possessed and ignorant in the early years; more interested in the score card*.


 I never experienced these type of guys.. probably pretty typical in their younger years... My husband would NEVER talk like this about a woman.. and I didn't need pounded to get there at all.. I hesitate to say a woman needs to feel loved, cared about, even made love to.... to "open up" with a man ...since this simply ISN'T TRUE -going by what women say themselves ... but enough foreplay... making love ...not even getting to any pounding always worked for us...


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Yes, quite a lot of it.
> 
> Unfortunately a lot is also behind a pay wall, but here are a few articles and summaries, plus a national survey.
> 
> ...




I didn't have time to read them all, but this one : 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201602/why-so-many-women-don-t-have-orgasms


was VERY spot on. Whether the stats are accurate or not wasn't my concern when reading. I know my experience has led me to believe that many women expect not to O...every one of my girlfriends has discussed this in painful detail...But what he wrote about HOW women are designed to O was very accurate!


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

The Psychology Today article says:

"Ever since 1948 when Alfred Kinsey launched modern sex research, one finding has been confirmed and re-confirmed over and over again. Compared with men, women are considerably less likely to have orgasms"

So, there are two possibilities:

1) There is something about women's sexuality that makes it harder for them to have orgasms

2) Or as Always says, it's exactly the same for both genders. The problem is that women are wonderful and selfless and work harder to make men orgasm while men are just clods who don't give a damn.

The Daily Beast article was a fun tour of perverse feminist thought.

Apparently women have a much higher rate of achieving orgasm in relationships. 

It turns out that Always might be on to one thing; "one man explained that with his girlfriend, 'definitely oral is really important [for her to orgasm],' but that with a casual hookup, “I don’t give a sh!t.” and "Another male college student interviewed for England’s study put it this way: 'Now that I’m in a relationship, I think [her orgasm is] actually pretty important. More important than [in a] hookup. Because you have more invested in that person…When it’s a hookup you feel less investment." "The research doesn’t bode well for the late-night booty text, one-night stand, or random fornication in the fraternity house as pathways to an orgasm."

So, what's the recommendation for women seeking sexual satisfaction? Avoid sex outside of a relationship?

Not a chance. 

"The bright spot of the study is this: Even though folklore has it that women don’t achieve orgasms with strangers because they need emotional attachment to feel that sort of pleasure, the truth is that women’s orgasms are not usually the result of emotional attachments, but simple physicality. Which is why Angier says she believes the sexual paradigm of women as passive receiver and man as sexual agent needs to be stamped out if women are going to get serious about their orgasms.

“'The woman really has to be the boss of the sexual experience, because it’s harder for women to have an orgasm through a straightforward sexual position. Women need to start understanding how their clitoral nerves are positioned,' says Angier.”

There IS hope for women. They CAN get off having sex with strangers just like men! Whoo-Hoo!

They just need to focus on where their clitoral nerves are positioned and "be the boss of the sexual experience".

Also, "Men receive oral sex about 80% of the time in first-time hookups, whereas women receive it less than half the time."

Looks like we need a new law here.

As an aside, both of these articles point out that there is an "orgasm gap". PT says that men have orgasms 95% of the time and women 50%-70% of the time. I can see how this might lead to 30% to 50% of women expecting to not to have an orgasm. I failed to spot where *women expected pain*. 

I suppose the statement from Always that "Sadly, though quite a large number expect pain and/or no orgasm" would be true if a large number of women expected no orgasm and a very small number expected pain. I could say "many people die from cancer and/or meteor strikes" and that would be technically correct to same degree.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> As an aside, both of these articles point out that there is an "orgasm gap". PT says that men have orgasms 95% of the time and women 50%-70% of the time. I can see how this might lead to 30% to 50% of women expecting to not to have an orgasm. I failed to spot where *women expected pain*.


Read the one on anal sex if that is your main interest. Also note that some of the survey data in the US, UK, and Australia shows that both men and women will report that they expect sex to be pleasurable for men, but not so much for women. I only posted a US one, but can pull up more if you would like.

Also, the language you're making fun of is largely because these are write-ups, not the articles themselves. Last time I posted articles sitting behind a pay wall, I got my head bitten off for it, so I elected to provide only free access stuff this time.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The Psychology Today article says:
> 
> "Ever since 1948 when Alfred Kinsey launched modern sex research, one finding has been confirmed and re-confirmed over and over again. Compared with men, women are considerably less likely to have orgasms"
> 
> ...


There are also some studies that show that the orgasm gap reduces to pretty must zero with *knowledge about and attention to women's sexuality* 

Which indicates that much of the gap is because of attitudes towards women's orgasm, and there is a long, long history where it was first denied to exist at all, and then said to be incidental and unimportant. 

Note too that this orgasm gap is not just in casual sex. That was just the one study that focused on that. But I guess you didn't read the quote I posted from the survey? It was very relevant to the topic of this thread.


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## happilyMRSinYAHUSHA (Jul 14, 2014)

My mom made it seem like sex was an embarrassing chore wives have to put up with. I don't think she enjoys it to this day and she can accept that. 

The funny thing for me was even after looking at so many diagrams and being ashamed to even look at myself in a mirror I could not find my clit until I was 19!!!! I look back at this and think omg what kind of repression I picked up on from society I mean come on the clit is like right there and so more sensitive and I genuinely could not figure it out!!! Prob from shame and hatred of being "dirty" down there or something.... Breaks my heart for all those in similar place

Thank YHWH me n my husband have developed an amazing private life oh it wasn't easy took about 3 years but now I orgasm so much more than him. multiples gushing trembling every time beg him not to make me cum again  yay
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Note too that this orgasm gap is not just in casual sex. That was just the one study that focused on that. But I guess you didn't read the quote I posted from the survey? It was very relevant to the topic of this thread.


The Daily Beast article addressed the orgasm gap at different commitment levels from ONS to relationships. It still existed with relationships but was far smaller than in hookups. 

Had you said "women expect no orgasm or pain from *anal* sex", I would have suspected that to be true. You dropped pain in as an expectation that many women have about sex.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> The Daily Beast article addressed the orgasm gap at different commitment levels from ONS to relationships. It still existed with relationships but was far smaller than in hookups.
> 
> Had you said "women expect no orgasm or pain from *anal* sex", I would have suspected that to be true. You dropped pain in as an expectation that many women have about sex.


I posted but 4 articles, and two of the four addressed pain. Here's another --note that it is a write-up related to the national survey I posted above:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-pleasures-sex/201010/why-does-sex-hurt-1-in-3-women


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I posted but 4 articles, and two of the four addressed pain. Here's another --note that it is a write-up related to the national survey I posted above:
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-pleasures-sex/201010/why-does-sex-hurt-1-in-3-women


"We found, for example, that about 30% of all women ages 18 to 59 reported some difficulty with pain the last time that they had sex."

I was aware of medical conditions occurring that led to pain for women during intercourse, but I never would have imagined the number to be this high.

I'm pretty sure that's inflated (as almost any number used to make a point is) but it's unfair to dismiss it without doing more research of my own (which I don't have the time or motivation to do). 

So I'll concede that it may be more prevalent than I would have thought.

Is this all due to bad practice on the part of their partners? 

If so, then I'd think this supports the case for women's orgasms being trickier to achieve.

If not, then I'd think this supports the case for women's orgasms being trickier to achieve.


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

I know from past experiences if I wasn't fully aroused sex would be painful during and after sex because of my cervix being hit. Maybe it's the same for some of the women in the survey feeling pain.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Oh my effin gawd, I can't believe you suggested that. Even in jest.
> 
> Porn is like absolutely the *worst* *worst* information sourve for learning about women's sexuality. Maybe if all you care about is what turns men on you might learn something. But you will only learn how to treat women like interchangeable objects.


Porn as education is only rivaled by romance novels at teaching women what men want in bed.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

@Buddy400, you seem determined to miss the point. Why? Did yoinread the part that demonstrated that medical conditions is but one piece of the puzzle? Do you need me to dig up that research that shows women have equal numbers of orgasms and pleasure when there is knowledge of and care taken foe their sexuality? 
@larry.gray, I don't see men lacking in orgasms or pleasurable experience as a result. Do you? Oh wait, this is a thread about ignorance about women"s sexuality. 

Too bad we really aren't allowed to talk about this without flipping it around and blaming women.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> The Psychology Today article says:
> 
> "Ever since 1948 when Alfred Kinsey launched modern sex research, one finding has been confirmed and re-confirmed over and over again. Compared with men, women are considerably less likely to have orgasms"
> 
> ...


I fully believe that women are just as capable as orgasm as men are, and not only that, but as quickly as most men can, as well.

The issue lies within the mental aspect of it all. Not being a woman, I can't speak from experience, but I can certainly speak from hearing/reading women's experiences and attitudes towards sex. Or more importantly, what they're TOLD their attitudes should be. To say I can't understand what it's like to be a woman in this regard is an understatement.

You can start at the absolute most basic of sex ed - man orgasms, expels sperm into the woman, meets up with the egg, voila, a miracle.

The woman's orgasm is irrelevant to baby-making. We're not told that (hopefully), but it's implied, because it's NEVER TALKED ABOUT.

Everything positive about sex is male-centric, and has been for (ever?). Everything negative about sex is focused around the woman (shaming, victimization, you name it).

Not to mention that, by and large, women are the gatekeepers of sex. That's a lot of pressure to be presented with from a young age. Teenage boys don't think of the consequences of having sex with a girl. It's experience, it's awesome, it's a notch on the belt and a high-five from your buddies. For teen girls, it's not usually any of that (it CAN be, of course).

But I honestly think that it's so much more complicated for women than it is for men, right from an early age. The physiological aspect of sex is pretty much the same in both men and women. The difference between a penis and a vagina are obvious, but both genders have essentially the same means of achieving orgasm. We men have a highly sensitive spot underneath the tip of the penis, which is more or less, the same as a clitoris. Or vice versa, the clitoris is essentially a tiny penis. Either way, this spot requires stimulation in order to achieve orgasm.

If a man never spends any time on a woman's clitoris, it's unlikely she'll achieve orgasm. Obviously it IS possible, however I imagine it's similar to a man achieving orgasm without ever touching that sensitive spot under the head of his penis. Touching every bit of the penis EXCEPT that spot definitely feels good, and it CAN result in orgasm, but probably only when the man is highly highly aroused. It would be similar to a woman performing oral sex on a man, but solely by licking the shaft, or the back of the head only, and manually stimulating only the shaft.

My wife has hang ups about sex, as do many women. Fortunately, they do not affect her ability to orgasm or otherwise ENJOY sex - while it's happening. Everything else about sex clearly has negative connotations for her. Won't talk about it, discuss it, share anything with me. She shuts down when the topic comes up, and not just with me. Other people around us are talking about sex - nothing. She won't read about, including some things I've suggested she read for our benefit. She'll get uncomfortable and change the subject. Sex does not exist to her, unless it's happening. And when it does happen (once a week or less) there's no flirting beforehand, no suggestion, no words. No fooling around. It's just a look she gives me that it's okay. And like a sad puppy, I comply each and every time. (except that once when I didn't, and she got mad at me for 2 days for rejecting her... sigh). The dynamic is so messed up, and it's not just with us. I've seen it countless times here on TAM, too. She's not the only one who views sex in this way.

For her, it's everything AROUND sex, getting to that point, that sort of thing. It's all mental for her, and for many other women. For her, there's a stigma around sex as a whole. I believe she, like so many women, don't see it as a positive thing. Perhaps one too many negative experiences, thanks to men. Cheating, shaming, feeling used. All too common, unfortunately. For her, it's purely a physical thing. It's not something to share in a positive manner with her spouse. It's a thing to do that feels good. It's not intimate or loving, because that's not how she experienced sex, which is sad. She fully admits this.

And that sucks for me AND for her. Even her ex before me (3 years together) made her feel used. Whether he had that sort of attitude towards sex or not almost doesn't matter - SHE felt that from him. As she put it, it was a duty for her. They both worked the same 8 hour days. But she took care of the kids (4 of them, 2 each), made breakfasts, lunches and dinners. Cleaned house. Did laundry. He didn't do any of that. He worked 8 hours a day, came home, put his feet up and asked what's for dinner. Like a stereotype. Then get pissy when they didn't have sex. Hell, even when they did have sex, it would be over in a few minutes, she said.

That, and all the other negative experiences she had over the years, came into this marriage with her. So if I'm in the mood, yet she's tired, I'm the bad guy. (fwiw, I do the bulk of the housework and children-related things. I'm self employed and able to).

When these are what your experiences are, it's almost impossible to break from them. No matter what I say, what I do, she still thinks men (including myself) only want to get off. And that's f***ed up, and totally not her fault. But that's the reality, because we men are brought up one way, women another.

So much pressure is put on the woman in this regard. No wonder many of them have issues with things such as orgasming.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I spent my teen years looking at Hustler and Penthouse and watching porn on VHS tapes. I knew women had orgasms but I was somewhat clueless about where the clit was located and what to do with it. My first LTR GF and I had sex for the first time when on my 17th birthday. She was somewhat experienced, I was not. I wanted to make her cum so badly but I really didn't know what I was doing. 

If she had been willing to "teach" me what made her feel good, it would have been better for both of us. 

Don't worry,  I know where all of the parts are now.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> The issue, where do you draw the line between being more vocal (more for encouragement / acknowledgement to your SO) vs faking it? For example, when I am getting a BJ (might be hard to picture when combined with looking at my avatar...) I am content just sitting back and enjoying, don't need to be vocal. However, at times I think my W may wonder if I am really enjoying, so I may dial up the vocal slightly just so she knows I am doing quite alright. Obviously this is different then if I started yelling stuff out like I had turrets lol.


I tried something different the other night. My monthly (on her period) BJ to completion was this past Friday. I was very vocal and then decided to rub and kiss her body while she was working. Then I stopped her and started making out, fondling, kissing, massaging, etc. She actually said "I almost had an orgasm" and I never even touched her vajaja. The more I show how I feel inside, the more my wife gets into it. I cuss, I scream, I thrash. Is it fake?
No, but it does take an effort for me to let go.


My advice is don't sit back at all. Thrash, be vocal and bring your wife into your orgasm.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> @Buddy400, you seem determined to miss the point. Why? Did yoinread the part that demonstrated that medical conditions is but one piece of the puzzle?


Hmmm, after reviewing what I said ("I was aware of medical conditions occurring that led to pain for women during intercourse, but I never would have imagined the number to be this high.") I guess that could be construed as thinking that all pain was due to medical conditions. 

Let me restate: I was aware of medical conditions occurring that led to pain for women during intercourse. However, I never would have imagined that the number of women having pain during intercourse for any reason would be this high.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> @Buddy400, you seem determined to miss the point. Why? Did yoinread the part that demonstrated that medical conditions is but one piece of the puzzle? Do you need me to dig up that research that shows women have equal numbers of orgasms and pleasure when there is knowledge of and care taken foe their sexuality?
> @larry.gray, I don't see men lacking in orgasms or pleasurable experience as a result. Do you? Oh wait, this is a thread about ignorance about women"s sexuality.
> 
> Too bad we really aren't allowed to talk about this without flipping it around and blaming women.



I don't think Larry was blaming women for anything, just pointing out that there's a ton of crappy sources of information out there for everyone to enjoy. 

Yes, porn is a crappy source that misleads men. Romance novels are the same. 

Yes, men have orgasms much more easily (on average). That doesn't necessarily mean it was good sex. The road is just as important as the destination.

The best source of information--and in some ways the only source that matters--is our own partner, however that only works with a partner that's willing to open up about it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Hmmm, after reviewing what I said ("I was aware of medical conditions occurring that led to pain for women during intercourse, but I never would have imagined the number to be this high.") I guess that could be construed as thinking that all pain was due to medical conditions.
> 
> Let me restate: I was aware of medical conditions occurring that led to pain for women during intercourse. However, I never would have imagined that the number of women having pain during intercourse for any reason would be this high.


I wonder if discomfort is construed as pain as well (people may define pain differently)? For example, there are times my W and I have sex where she will tell me that she has some discomfort (i.e. cramping). Likewise there have been times where I experience discomfort as well (hernia surgery a while back). We both continued having sex, and i am sure if it got to the point where the pain outweighed the pleasure we would stop or choose alternative methods. Neither of us would decide to go on b/c porn conditioned us to just accept it.

It is an interesting topic


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Buddy400 said:


> *The Daily Beast article addressed the orgasm gap at different commitment levels from ONS to relationships. It still existed with relationships but was far smaller than in hookups. *


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Porn can be educational. ..

I prefer solo female or lesbean porn. Penises turn me off, so hetero porn doesn't do much.

Solo or lesbian porn _for men_ seems so fake. Women don't like what they do on those videos, and don't orgasm that fast.

I prefer solo female or lesbian stuff _for women_. Good stuff there...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

UMP said:


> When I first found out that women had orgasms was when I was married to my SECOND, (current wife.)
> We were having sex and she started convulsing, etc. I had no friggin idea. Even after she came I just thought she was enjoying it, not actually having an orgasm.
> I did not grow up in a conservative household. In fact, my mother encouraged me to have sex with as many women as I could.
> 
> Granted, I am old (54) and not much information was readily available like it is today. However, how can a man with 20 partners and an ex wife not know that women have orgasms???


OK, I am a 51 year old woman and I didn't know that women could have orgasms until I was well into my 20's, maybe even my 30's. I DID grow up in a conservative household - very religious - but of course kids talk at school and stuff. However, I was never the type to really believe the other kids when it came to stuff like sex. Since I couldn't ask my parents, I just filed things away, did some (extremely guilt-ridden) self exploration, decided to lose my virginity when I turned 16 but ended up with a guy who didn't really care about me, and just ended up imitating porn women for many years because I figured that's what women really did - make their man think they were making her happy. I honestly thought that womens orgasms were a myth and that my friends who said they had them were just playing along with the myth. I don't remember exactly when I had my first one but I was in my late 20's or early 30's and had 2 or 3 kids already.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Fozzy said:


> I don't think Larry was blaming women for anything


Correct



Fozzy said:


> Yes, men have orgasms much more easily (on average). That doesn't necessarily mean it was good sex. The road is just as important as the destination.
> The best source of information--and in some ways the only source that matters--is our own partner, however that only works with a partner that's willing to open up about it.


I'll go so far is disagreeing with termanology. Men _often ejaculate more._ But just because white stuff came out of the end of the penis doesn't mean a man enjoyed what happened. Ejaculation can be solely a physiologically induced response.

It was something hard for my wife to accept. She wanted to believe that my ejaculation was sufficient even when I told her otherwise.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

larry.gray said:


> I'll go so far is disagreeing with termanology. Men _often ejaculate more._ But just because white stuff came out of the end of the penis doesn't mean a man enjoyed what happened. Ejaculation can be solely a physiologically induced response.
> 
> It was something hard for my wife to accept. She wanted to believe that my ejaculation was sufficient even when I told her otherwise.


Completely agree with this.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> This is very painful for me to admit, but I think it will be useful for the group and men specifically.
> I tried to think back on how many women I had been with prior to marriage and the number is 20 including my ex wife.
> 
> Here goes.
> ...


I will always be grateful to the promiscuous girl who thought I was older than I was. She taught me a lot when I confessed I was a virgin.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I don't think Larry was blaming women for anything, just pointing out that there's a ton of crappy sources of information out there for everyone to enjoy.
> 
> Yes, porn is a crappy source that misleads men. Romance novels are the same.
> 
> Yes, men have orgasms much more easily (on average). That doesn't necessarily mean it was good sex. The road is just as important as the destination.


Sure there is lots of bad information out there. But --and I'm genuinely curious about this --what is it about romance novels that harms men? 

As I said before, when I was a young girl, even before I knew anything about sex, I knew what men wanted and needed. None of my partners ever cared what I wanted --I was there to please them. And just look at how many here "knew" about female orgasm because of porn.

I'm sorry, but if porn is your source of information about female orgasm, you know sweet **** all.

And the reality is there is a systemic difference here that show up in the research literature that indicates serious lack of knowledge and interest in female orgasm. Thankfully, this is changing! But don't we also need to talk about it to bring it to the fore?

And yet, every time we try, it turns into this whole "women are clueless too" thing. Okay fine. Women are clueless too. Can we now at least acknowledge that women have faced much greater challenges getting their sexual needs met?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> Porn can be educational. ..
> 
> I prefer solo female or lesbean porn. Penises turn me off, so hetero porn doesn't do much.
> 
> ...


I also feel , depending, certain types of porn can be educational... we rented many of those 8 yrs ago... since we were pretty "vanilla" most of our marriage ....

The only videos my husband seemed to get into (to rent) back in the day were seeing women dance (strippers)...that's his excitement...and solo women.... when I started to want to set my eyes on porn ... it was like.. "WOW.. we've been missing a lot.. what was wrong with [email protected]#"... I was really getting into all these different positions, things we can do to spice things up... Videos like this.. All DVDs | Loving sex.com

I think what killed it early on was...we slipped in a DVD "Adam & Eve" sent along with something we bought in our early marriage.. it turned us both OFF.. more on the hard core side...I found it disgusting.. my husband would say that type is degrading to women...

So those images made me associate all porn like THAT... not realizing how much I would've enjoyed more "Romantic" or softer type stuff.. where it seems the couple actually CARE about each other...

Though this may be harder to find.. it exists.. 

We don't see soft porn much different from how it really is.. how men & women react to each other.. they just have sexier bodies is all...which can be a turn on to watch.. He doesn't want to see the man.. I don't want to see the woman solo.. but love seeing them together in the act..


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Ejaculation can be solely a physiologically induced response.


Same is true for women. A few convulsions does not necessarily indicate a decent orgasm.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

always_alone said:


> Sure there is lots of bad information out there. But --and I'm genuinely curious about this --what is it about romance novels that harms men?
> 
> As I said before, when I was a young girl, even before I knew anything about sex, I knew what men wanted and needed. None of my partners ever cared what I wanted --I was there to please them. And just look at how many here "knew" about female orgasm because of porn.
> 
> ...


Fair enough.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I am not playing along with someone who is spoiling for a fight. Stop using a straw man on me and I'll continue, otherwise leave me alone.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

always_alone said:


> Sure there is lots of bad information out there. But --and I'm genuinely curious about this --what is it about romance novels that harms men?
> -------
> 
> I'm sorry, but if porn is your source of information about female orgasm, you know sweet **** all.
> ...


Both genders are clueless about some aspects of the other, no doubt about it.

When it comes to sex, I don't think it's difficult for a woman to please a man - at least not as difficult as the reverse. It's not because we're simple, it's the mechanics of it. The penis WILL be stimulated. It can't not be. The clit, on the other hand, can be completely missed altogether.

Often, it comes down to something as simple as oral sex. Many women can't orgasm from PIV alone. If their partner does not do oral sex, or is not good at it, they're SOL, or they have to manually stimulate themselves during PIV. And as we've seen here many times, there are lots of women who will not touch themselves in front of their partner, or who don't touch themselves ever. Men orgasm from PIV, without oral sex being necessary.

Where many women are "clueless", IMO, is in regards to understanding how very different sex is to us men and/or putting the onus on us to seduce you. Many don't realize that we want the same from you. As the aforementioned romance novels are (I suspect) entirely about men seducing women and not the other way around, it creates this fantasy idea that this is how it's "supposed" to be, and this is how men are.

Basically, it's not just women who want their partners to desire them, or seduce them, or even just initiate.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

OliviaG said:


> Huh?!? This is news to me - I thought if a guy wasn't enjoying the activity he would lose his erection and therefore would not ejaculate. No? Can you please explain further?


Erections aren't solely a sexual response. It's simply the body sending blood to that area, causing an erection. They can happen without any physical stimulation whatsoever (ie. just thinking about something) and they can also happen with virtually any kind of physical stimulation including non-sexual, without thinking about sex. Basically, one doesn't have to be turned on to have an erection. It's quite literally the expanding of blood vessels to increase flow to that area, which doesn't require a sexual stimulus to happen.

I genuinely can't explain why this sort of thing doesn't seem to happen to women (ie. a similar response, including the swelling of the clit in a spontaneous or non-sexual manner). It seems as though women absolutely require sexual stimulation to achieve what amounts to the same thing as a man's erection.

In short, erection does not = being turned on.

It's a similar thing for an orgasm, I think. All it requires is stimulation, and with that, you get a response.

It's far easier to achieve orgasm when one is turned on, but it's certainly possible to get an erection and subsequently orgasm even though the man is not sexually aroused (or FULLY sexually aroused, I should say).

And just like you women can have "dud" orgasms, so can we men.

For me, I have those when I'm just not into it, which usually means my wife isn't all that into it to begin with. It happens. It can also happen when I'm tired or I've passed my physical limit (doing push ups is hard, just sayin'!)


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

alexm said:


> I genuinely can't explain why this sort of thing doesn't seem to happen to women (ie. a similar response, including the swelling of the clit in a spontaneous or non-sexual manner). It seems as though women absolutely require sexual stimulation to achieve what amounts to the same thing as a man's erection.
> 
> In short, erection does not = being turned on.


It does happen to women all of the time. That's why there is all this recent research measuring blood flow to women's genitalia, trying to document their arousal, and finding a disjunct between her reports of arousal and her physiological measures.

The interesting thing about this research, though, is that it wants to conclude that women *don't know* they are aroused, rather than explaining it in the same way you did above. It is assumed that blood flow and lubrication *is* arousal. But the two can actually happen quite separately and often do.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

alexm said:


> Both genders are clueless about some aspects of the other, no doubt about it.
> 
> When it comes to sex, I don't think it's difficult for a woman to please a man - at least not as difficult as the reverse. It's not because we're simple, it's the mechanics of it. The penis WILL be stimulated. It can't not be. The clit, on the other hand, can be completely missed altogether.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to add something to my own reply:

The "ideal" sexual relationship is with a partner who views sex equally, and who recognizes that each persons role in it is exactly the same.

Things like porn and romance novels have taught each (or both) genders that the roles in sex are not equal, unfortunately. Society has done this, as well. Basically, everything's a giant mess, and people of either gender grow up thinking that sex is this for men, and that for women.

But at the end of the day, we all want the same thing - a partner who desires you just as much as you do them. A partner who initiates or seduces you just as often as you do them. A partner who focuses on your pleasure just as much as you do theirs.

It's that simple.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

always_alone said:


> It does happen to women all of the time. That's why there is all this recent research measuring blood flow to women's genitalia, trying to document their arousal, and finding a disjunct between her reports of arousal and her physiological measures.
> 
> The interesting thing about this research, though, is that it wants to conclude that women *don't know* they are aroused, rather than explaining it in the same way you did above. It is assumed that blood flow and lubrication *is* arousal. *But the two can actually happen quite separately and often do*.


I honestly didn't know this happened to women, so there you go! I stand corrected.

Obviously it's much more obvious when it happens to a man, though.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

alexm said:


> The woman's orgasm is irrelevant to baby-making. We're not told that (hopefully), but it's implied, because it's NEVER TALKED ABOUT.





Hope1964 said:


> I honestly thought that womens orgasms were a myth and that my friends who said they had them were just playing along with the myth.


Unfortunately, there is a long history of denying the female orgasm, and then when denial was no longer possible, calling it superfluous and uncessary.

Even more sadly, this nonsense is still propagated today. I would link to it to prove it, but do not want to spread crap around, in case someone steps in it.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


>


Shocking! So more than 30% of women in trusting relationships do not enjoy orgasms. All the way up to 90%.

With stats like that, any pretence that we are all so enlightened about women's sexuality goes out the window. At least IMHO.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

alexm said:


> Where many women are "clueless", IMO, is in regards to understanding how very different sex is to us men and/or putting the onus on us to seduce you. Many don't realize that we want the same from you. As the aforementioned romance novels are (I suspect) entirely about men seducing women and not the other way around, it creates this fantasy idea that this is how it's "supposed" to be, and this is how men are.
> 
> Basically, it's not just women who want their partners to desire them, or seduce them, or even just initiate.


Spot on @alexm . As well, there has been quite a few times I have seen women in disbelief that a guy could actually want sex for more then just b/c he is a guy and wants to hump everything around him. The idea that a guy could want to have sex with his SO b/c he desires that closeness/emotional connection, yikes!!! There is "clueless" on both sides.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Huh?!? This is news to me - I thought if a guy wasn't enjoying the activity he would lose his erection and therefore would not ejaculate. No? Can you please explain further?


I think @alexm did a good job explaining. It is hard (no pun intended). Erections definitely do not equate to being turned on. I typically wake up every morning at full salute (which makes the morning pee very interesting lol) but I am in no way turned on, it is just simply a bloodflow response. There have been times that I can think of where I have ejaculated without having a full erection. There have been times I have ejaculated with a full erection, and honestly eating cookies would have been more pleasurable. IDK, might not be completely clear. Maybe the best way to put it, for guys there are different levels of Os that don't necessarily coincide with the ejaculation or quality of erection.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

marduk said:


> I will always be grateful to the promiscuous girl who thought I was older than I was. She taught me a lot when I confessed I was a virgin.


Ya gotta LOVE that!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

always_alone said:


> Shocking! So more than 30% of women in trusting relationships do not enjoy orgasms. All the way up to 90%.
> 
> With stats like that, any pretence that we are all so enlightened about women's sexuality goes out the window. At least IMHO.


No statistics are perfect.. but it sure makes sense when women lay down with guys who just want to get off - purely selfish , another notch for their belt, that chances are.. they won't be orgasmic.. unless they orgasm easily.. which simply isn't the case for a great majority... 

It just makes sense, to me anyway... if a woman has had solo orgasms ...she's going to KNOW how & what she needs with a man... she's going to be darn sure she is getting hers, advocating, communicating what she needs when she starts indulging sexually...or yeah... we'd be awfully frustrated.. maybe the question is.. at least for those who KNOW they can.. why do they put up with selfish lovers? 

If more of these A-holes were dumped.. and not getting sex everywhere.. then maybe they would start caring more about women's pleasure..


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Why does this happen? Because you're not getting good feedback from your partner (i.e. she's not into it)? Some other reason?


Honestly no clue. Maybe my mind is elsewhere? There have been times I do know where we go "too long" to the point where I get numb (this was a bigger problem with condoms) so physically I may not be getting the stimulation needed and mentally I need to really dial it up a notch to release. Now that you mention it as well, I can think of times where I have O'd without ejaculating (at the point of no return so tried my hardest to stop from happening, ended up having an O without any actual fire power). 

Also, to answer your question, the position, lubrication, etc... all factor in to it (along with the mental aspect). For example, too much lube/wetness means not enough friction which I find leads to meh Os


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EllisRedding said:


> I think @alexm did a good job explaining. It is hard (no pun intended). *Erections definitely do not equate to being turned on.* I typically wake up every morning at full salute (which makes the morning pee very interesting lol) but I am in no way turned on, it is just simply a bloodflow response. There have been times that I can think of where I have ejaculated without having a full erection.* There have been times I have ejaculated with a full erection, and honestly eating cookies would have been more pleasurable. *IDK, might not be completely clear. Maybe the best way to put it, for guys there are different levels of Os that don't necessarily coincide with the ejaculation or quality of erection.


I worried about this sort of thing when my drive was higher.. like he was just trying to please me.. he's off today... eating breakfast right now.. so I went and asked him how he felt about this.. granted at his age... waking up with morning wood is hit or miss... so I asked ...if EVER he's got an erection, if he's not really interested or thinking about it..(that was my question)...

He feels differently.. he told me, if it's hard.."It's ready to go baby"... (his words)... I feel better now.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> He feels differently.. he told me, if it's hard.."It's ready to go baby"... (his words)... I feel better now.


Haha :smthumbup:

Don't get me wrong, if I am rocking wood, whether or not sex is on my mind, if the opportunity presents itself I would hate to not use it :grin2: Unfortunately morning wood doesn't coincide with ideal opportunities to take advantage of (except for humorous attempts to pee in a confined area lol)


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> Ya gotta LOVE that!


She actually taught me the "leave 'em better than you found 'em" sexual philosophy 30 years ago.

And it's something I tried to live by, even in my promiscuous high school days. It got me into trouble sometimes, but for the most part I hope I made those girls happy.

I know I gave a few of them their first O's... At least with another person present. Maybe I taught them a few things, and they taught some dudes a few things. So I hope it turned out well.

She was also slightly bisexual. So I always kinda thought it was normal-ish for a woman to be sometimes turned on by other women. And made me really accepting of gay folks, even in the anti-gay '80s.

Although she was heavily ****ed up in many ways (she called me up like a year after we broke up threatening suicide if we didn't get back together and made me severely gun shy of LTRs for years), she really was a good sex educator.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> One thing that I never knew was that my husband (probably) wanted me to initiate - he did most of the initiation for most of our marriage. I don't know why, he just did and never complained about it so I thought that was just the way things were supposed to be, I guess. He got an enthusiastic response when he did! But I bet he wished I had been initiating and I wish he'd made me realize it.


As you know, the whole initiation thing has been topic for conversation with my W. I think even now we are still somewhat trying to come to a middle ground here. I know my wife has told me numerous times when I have initiated (and pretty much ravaged her) how great it feels to be wanted. I think that is what at times I felt I was missing. Not that I ever questioned my Ws feelings for me, but yeah, that "feeling wanted" feeling was something that it would be nice to be on the receiving end of.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I worried about this sort of thing when my drive was higher.. like he was just trying to please me.. he's off today... eating breakfast right now.. so I went and asked him how he felt about this.. granted at his age... waking up with morning wood is hit or miss... so I asked ...if EVER he's got an erection, if he's not really interested or thinking about it..(that was my question)...
> 
> He feels differently.. he told me, if it's hard.."It's ready to go baby"... (his words)... I feel better now.


It may be "ready" but the mind behind the erection might not be ready. Although, given the right stimulation, the male mind can change direction quickly.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> Yeah, that is the question. Why put up with it? I think maybe some women don't understand that (most) men are thoughtful, emotional beings (like us) who genuinely want love, an emotional connection and mutually pleasurable sex with their partners. So they think that the guy who treats them like crap is the typical guy and there's nobody out there who would treat them any better. They're wrong, but I guess we've established in this thread that lots of us have been wrong about lots of the things that we thought we knew.


They put up with it for the same reason men put up with women who are lousy sexual partners.

Because lousy sexual partners that you have sex with are hot, and get away with it because they're hot.

Lousy sex partners that aren't hot don't have sex. 

Lousy sex partners that are hot have fling after fling.

I've known plenty of super hot women that just lay there. Because they're hot. And lots of dudes over look that and clamour for a ride.

Until they get bored of it, you know?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

A cool breeze will get a young guy hard - and aroused - with no problem. The difficulty is NOT coming to completion too soon 

As men age and testosterone wanes (and presumably as we understand women more), arousal can / does become less intertwined with the body functions (erection and ejaculation).

As a result, men may require more arousal time and effort. I know after I hit 50 I saw a huge change. I can perform every night - and do - but now I want a great deal of visual and mental arousal time to get to the same point of enjoyment. It's just chopping wood otherwise. And I could chop forever that way.

I doubt my W fully understands this because I find her sexy and she always turns me on. But in spite of that I am not at an aroused state without the investment in time. Because we have a million kids still and both work, AND because she doesn't really get it... I rely on porn quite a bit. It's interesting though - I don't really like the porn per se - and I don't masturbate - but the explicit imagery helps me shift gears from work, family and life and get to that sexy place.

Anyway - I doubt most men and certainly most women - know this. I've done research and met with a sex therapist or I wouldn't have either. But the upside of knowing is you can do something about it. And for me - the connection my W and I get from even 15 minutes of "play" on this are exhausting days, followed by cuddling and talking and affection (and often preceded by it) makes intimacy so, so worth it he effort.

I wish more couples understood the bonding intimacy creates - particularly when kids are young and work is stressful - TAM would have far fewer tragic stories IMO.

BYW - you ladies - as you get older and maybe don't want to dress sexy like a younger woman - and perhaps have gotten to a different "mature" place - should keep this in mind and keep up the sexy dress and moves for him - at least in private. He may feel silly asking for it but it might really help with his enjoyment and arousal... just like foreplay more extensive than "brace yerself Maggie!" usually helps the ladies


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Personally I GET the appeal of *PORN* (more soft / coupled sex type) and *ROMANCE NOVELS* to the opposite sex... Men simply want more , at least many of them do... 

And women often seek more *AFFECTION*.... wanting to feel that we alone are the center of his world, that we're highly wanted, treasured, desired.. he can't contain the stirrings in his body, but its emotional too... both are about *PASSION* really... which is exciting to both sexes... 

For some of us women...we want to feel "Safe", deeply loved ...in this atmosphere.. we feel we can let go of our inhibitions and give in to the man, it's the highest turn on.. without the emotional component , building up (which Romance novels give us)... it's not enough to satisfy us (speaking for myself anyway).... these things are the cherry on top... the highest plain to go sexually.. 

Men who complain about romance novels, feeling they are giving women "unrealistic expectations".. ya know what I think when I read that.. they don't understand it's appeal ...so they want to dismiss it altogether.. but they'd be smart to recognize what women are turned on by... pushing the bar in these core areas -to enhance their relationships.. 

And women... maybe some of us need to push up the spice bar, the naughty bar.... show more enthusiasm.. come on to HIM.. he's our man!! He wants you to initiate once in a while.. 

I may be more on the traditional/ old fashioned side of things.. feeling men should pursue women initially , so they can show their "intentions".. is it just to "F***" or is it more? ......but once they are exclusive, in love, that's all out the window... we can spread our wings so to speak...trust has been built.. both should seek to pursue each other with vigor and passion...


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I rely on porn quite a bit. It's interesting though - I don't really like the porn per se - and I don't masturbate - but the explicit imagery helps me shift gears from work, family and life and get to that sexy place.


Exactly! I am 54 and we have sex on Tuesdays and Fridays. Every Tues and Friday I watch porn (before sex) to get my motor in gear.
It gives me an edge I would not have otherwise.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> As you know, the whole initiation thing has been topic for conversation with my W. I think even now we are still somewhat trying to come to a middle ground here. I know my wife has told me numerous times when I have initiated (and pretty much ravaged her) how great it feels to be wanted. I think that is what at times I felt I was missing. Not that I ever questioned my Ws feelings for me, but yeah, that "feeling wanted" feeling was something that it would be nice to be on the receiving end of.


I feel exactly the same way. I will tell you that scheduling sex has completely taken this variable out of the equation. Find a frequency you and your wife are both comfortable with and try to stick to those days. No initiation necessary for both parties.

It also allows you to prepare mentally and physically way before you're actually going to have sex, without wasting mental energy.

I would always waste so much time in my mind thinking, "how should I initiate?" "Should I initiate today or not." "should I let her initiate." "Is she going to initiate or not?" Etc. Etc.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

UMP said:


> I feel exactly the same way. I will tell you that scheduling sex has completely taken this variable out of the equation. Find a frequency you and your wife are both comfortable with and try to stick to those days. No initiation necessary for both parties.
> 
> It also allows you to prepare mentally and physically way before you're actually going to have sex, without wasting mental energy.
> 
> *I would always waste so much time in my mind thinking, "how should I initiate?" "Should I initiate today or not." "should I let her initiate." "Is she going to initiate or not?" Etc. Etc.*


Yup, the bolded is pretty much spot on. Things are much better now, but I can easily think of 5-10+ times in the past 1-2 months where I wanted to initiate and didn't (going through my mental checklist). By the time I decided I literally was so mentally exhausted it wasn't even worth initiating lol. The added complication we have right now is young children so a schedule (as much as I can see that adding a benefit) still runs in to issues. We are trying to find some middle ground, still a work in progress but most importantly we are both committed to making it work.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Yup, the bolded is pretty much spot on. Things are much better now, but I can easily think of 5-10+ times in the past 1-2 months where I wanted to initiate and didn't (going through my mental checklist). By the time I decided I literally was so mentally exhausted it wasn't even worth initiating lol. The added complication we have right now is young children so a schedule (as much as I can see that adding a benefit) still runs in to issues. We are trying to find some middle ground, still a work in progress but most importantly we are both committed to making it work.


Yes, kids really throw a wrench in the whole situation. My kids are much older 21, 18, 17 and are getting ready to leave home.
Think of it this way, you have much to look forward to.:grin2:

My kids gave my wife all the "emotional" affection she needed. Now that they are "know it all" teenagers that don't want anything to do with their parents, my wife comes running to me for all that.
There is a silver lining in every cloud. >


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Yup, the bolded is pretty much spot on. Things are much better now, but I can easily think of 5-10+ times in the past 1-2 months where I wanted to initiate and didn't (going through my mental checklist).* By the time I decided I literally was so mentally exhausted it wasn't even worth initiating* lol. The added complication we have right now is young children so a schedule (as much as I can see that adding a benefit) still runs in to issues. We are trying to find some middle ground, still a work in progress but most importantly we are both committed to making it work.


It's like doing algebra and trying to solve a rubik's cube at the same time. You're right--it is exhausting, and a mood-wrecker.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> It's like doing algebra and trying to solve a rubik's cube at the same time. You're right--it is exhausting, and a mood-wrecker.


Lol, yup. Crazy right! There would be days where the first part, things are going well, nothing checked off on the "Do Not Go" mental checklist, feeling good. Then something happens, followed by something else, all at the top of the checklist. Confusion/Nausea sets in, and you settle for watching a TV show together lol. Kind of reminds me of this :grin2:


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> I feel exactly the same way. I will tell you that scheduling sex has completely taken this variable out of the equation. Find a frequency you and your wife are both comfortable with and try to stick to those days. No initiation necessary for both parties.
> 
> It also allows you to prepare mentally and physically way before you're actually going to have sex, without wasting mental energy.
> 
> I would always waste so much time in my mind thinking, "how should I initiate?" "Should I initiate today or not." "should I let her initiate." "Is she going to initiate or not?" Etc. Etc.


I find it amusing when married folks want sex to be spontaneous and hot like when they were dating...

Forgetting that they set the time and place for the date, got ready, and seduced each other in a plan to have sex.

Date each other. Dating requires planning and agreement.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Oh, and you can get rid of all that hand-wringing @UMP is you follow one simple rule:

If you want sex, initiate sex in a way that's likely to get you laid.

If you don't, then don't.

The end.

My wife once complained to me that she never gets to initiate because I always initiate first. She wanted to persue me and seduce me sometimes. So instead of waiting for her to initiate (lose-lose), I told her to up her game if that's what she wanted.

Or if I initiated and she said no, I'd go work out and get all sweaty, walk around the house with no shirt on (you know, just to cool off) or do other things that I know turn her on. Quite innocently, of course. Soon enough she'd be persuing me.

Such things can be fun if you don't overthink it.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Scheduling works well to solve issues of frequency when both partners actually want to have sex but can't find the time.

It does not work well at solving drive mismatches.

It also does not work well when one partner needs something particular to get in the mood. 

Just setting a date/time is not enough more often than not, I'm afraid.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> Scheduling works well to solve issues of frequency when both partners actually want to have sex but can't find the time.
> 
> It does not work well at solving drive mismatches.
> 
> ...


Remember all that stuff you did when dating your wife to rev her engine?

I bet a lot of it still works. Better, probably, because you know her better.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> Can we now at least acknowledge that women have faced much greater challenges getting their sexual needs met?


Sure.

The issue is that you give the impression that you think it's all the man's fault for not doing what a woman needs.

If that's not the case and you believe that both genders need to work on discovering and meeting women's sexual needs, I'm on board with that.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

marduk said:


> Remember all that stuff you did when dating your wife to rev her engine?
> 
> I bet a lot of it still works. Better, probably, because you know her better.


Sure, that's my point. Just marking "sex" on the calendar and expecting it will just happen is rarely going to work.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

marduk said:


> Oh, and you can get rid of all that hand-wringing @UMP is you follow one simple rule:
> 
> If you want sex, initiate sex in a way that's likely to get you laid.
> 
> ...


Yes, but your wife is a completely different animal than mine.
Seriously. My wife hates talking about sex, cannot admit that she has "EVER" masturbated, and is at a complete loss when it comes to initiating.
In your situation, given your wife, I agree.
With mine, not so much.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

UMP said:


> Yes, but your wife is a completely different animal than mine.
> Seriously. My wife hates talking about sex, cannot admit that she has "EVER" masturbated, and is at a complete loss when it comes to initiating.
> In your situation, given your wife, I agree.
> With mine, not so much.


Mine refuses to talk about sex when we're not either having sex, or about to, either.

Her initiations are pretty blunt. Like showing up naked. At least they are better than they used to be -- "I moved my leg to touch yours. Why did you not realize that I wanted to have sex?"


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Yup, the bolded is pretty much spot on. Things are much better now, but I can easily think of 5-10+ times in the past 1-2 months where I wanted to initiate and didn't (going through my mental checklist). By the time I decided I literally was so mentally exhausted it wasn't even worth initiating lol.


I'm a giver and have always been very uncomfortable asking for anything for myself. 

So I'd try to make sure that whatever I asked for would be something that my SO wanted as well. And so the "going through the mental checklist" process would start. Is she too tired? Does she seem unhappy? Etc. etc. Then I'd notice something wasn't ideal and I would back off and not initiate.

What I was actually doing was denying my wife the chance to feel good about making me happy.

I was very horny one day when we got home from work. She started in about what a crappy day she'd had at work so I figured "not today".

The next day I mentioned being horny the day before. She asked me why I hadn't asked for a blowjob. I mentioned that it was because she obviously had a rough day. She replied that giving me a blowjob would have been just the thing to get her into a better mood. 

Her rejection rate was never high and for the last several years it's been 0, but it's still hard to initiate. I push through it most of the time but it's never easy.

If I were a taker, I wouldn't think twice. I wouldn't care what she wanted.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

OliviaG said:


> Huh?!? This is news to me - I thought if a guy wasn't enjoying the activity he would lose his erection and therefore would not ejaculate. No? Can you please explain further?


There can be two scenarios: non-consentual sex and not desireing an orgasm.

For the first: some women orgasm during rape. It makes it worse because their body "betrayed" them. The same thing can happen to men / boys. Particularly teenagers where erections and orgasm happens fast and easily.

The second is common when a guy is trying to last "so she gets hers first." It would be easy for a woman to be resentful, thinking he got his orgasm and it was one sided. But that isn't necessarily the case.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm a giver and have always been very uncomfortable asking for anything for myself.
> 
> So I'd try to make sure that whatever I asked for would be something that my SO wanted as well. And so the "going through the mental checklist" process would start. Is she too tired? Does she seem unhappy? Etc. etc. Then I'd notice something wasn't ideal and I would back off and not initiate.
> 
> ...


Not gonna lie, it is refreshing to read this Buddy since I can relate very much to.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

larry.gray said:


> There can be two scenarios: non-consentual sex and not desireing an orgasm.
> 
> For the first: some women orgasm during rape. It makes it worse because their body "betrayed" them. The same thing can happen to men / boys. Particularly teenagers where erections and orgasm happens fast and easily.
> 
> The second is common when a guy is trying to last "so she gets hers first." It would be easy for a woman to be resentful, thinking he got his orgasm and it was one sided. But that isn't necessarily the case.


The first girl I had sex with would go for hours. HOURS.

And it was great. For the first couple of weeks. Then, on hour 3 or so, I fell asleep during sex. And because I had just turned 15, I stayed hard.

When I woke up again, there she was, still bouncing away. I don't think she ever noticed. She could O from PIV over and over again.

Another girl I dated in my early 20s was an aerobics instructor. Similar thing -- she would just go and go and go. It got exhausting, frankly.

But my body would always keep things moving, even if I wasn't into it, and wasn't going to O.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Yep, there's also priapism, prostate induced ejaculation, post-ejaculation orgasm, sleep ejaculation (both with and without erection, and not always caused by sexual dreams).....

It's convenient to shorthand things as the typical erection followed by simultaneous orgasm and ejaculation, but sometimes the plumbing just has a mind of it's own.


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## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Yep, there's also priapism, prostate induced ejaculation, post-ejaculation orgasm, sleep ejaculation (both with and without erection, and not always caused by sexual dreams).....
> 
> It's convenient to shorthand things as the typical erection followed by simultaneous orgasm and ejaculation, but sometimes the plumbing just has a mind of it's own.


Also, (and I don't know if this is normal) the last few years I will leak semen during the day after 3 or 4 days without an orgasm.
No erection necessary.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

TheTruthHurts said:


> A cool breeze will get a young guy hard - and aroused - with no problem. The difficulty is NOT coming to completion too soon


 Doing enough foreplay till the woman is ready to explode is how my husband handled me... in this way.. we near always climaxed together... even in his early years.. If I was over stimulating him.. I'd have to stop...sometimes he'd have to push my hands/ mouth away...as his goal was always for us to ride the waves together..



> As men age and testosterone wanes (and presumably as we understand women more), arousal can / does become less intertwined with the body functions (erection and ejaculation).
> 
> As a result, men may require more arousal time and effort. I know after I hit 50 I saw a huge change. I can perform every night - and do - but now I want a great deal of visual and mental arousal time to get to the same point of enjoyment.


Excellent book to explain this.. it has every detail about the penis & these aging effects, what you are getting at here.. how WE need to take the reins ...cater to HIM... to visually arouse, turn up the heat -bringing him with us....I loved this book...

All Night Long: How to Make Love to a Man Over 50 

I found this on the net years ago (below) ...when I was trying to make sense of why my drive was higher over his suddenly...here he was slowing down & I felt I was just getting started!.. ideally.. if both care to please the other throughout all our years.. none of this is a problem.. but true.. men may have to work a little harder to fulfill the woman when he is at the top of his sexual prime...to get his own needs met... then later in life.. (and ideally those who had inhibitions will have lost them all by now).. it's our turn to pick up the reins and seduce him more so..seeing that we're the ones wanting it more.. 

I've always felt whomever is higher drive.. there is a push to get creative in influencing the arousal of the other...to enhance our experience, suggesting new things, bringing it to the bedroom... though true.. it makes all the difference that we have a partner willing to get on board & go for the ride..



> *Balance the seesaw. *When they were first married, the man remembered, he always took the sexual lead, pulling his wife close and whispering his desire to make love. But now, 20 years later, she often makes the first move.
> 
> Again, hormonal changes are bringing the couple into closer balance. Men and women both produce testosterone and estrogen, but the proportion of each changes over the years. The male's shifting levels of estrogen and testosterone may make him more willing to follow than to lead, happy for his wife to set the pace. And as a woman's estrogen declines and her testosterone becomes proportionately greater, she may become more assertive.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> All Night Long: How to Make Love to a Man Over 50


As you know, I have always enjoyed your posts SA, but honestly I think this is one book I may pass on lol.

Actually, I should buy this book and put it on my nightstand, wait for my Ws reaction


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> SimplyAmorous said:
> 
> 
> > All Night Long: How to Make Love to a Man Over 50
> ...


Totally disagree dude, but then again she was quoting me.

Btw I'm really glad you get it and frankly I'm kind of glad my w doesn't because my physical presence is all she needs to know I love her and am into her. I'll check this out and maybe spoon feed it a bit - again I get the delicate ego thing here - i do love her and find her crazy sexy - it's just my parts are separated now where Head and head are no longer totally connected (ya see what I did there  )


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm a giver and have always been very uncomfortable asking for anything for myself.
> 
> So I'd try to make sure that whatever I asked for would be something that my SO wanted as well. And so the "going through the mental checklist" process would start. Is she too tired? Does she seem unhappy? Etc. etc. Then I'd notice something wasn't ideal and I would back off and not initiate.
> 
> What I was actually doing was denying my wife the chance to feel good about making me happy.


I don't get this at all :scratchhead:

You are a giver, and how you give is by not letting your wife give you a blow job? And now you think that a better way to give is to accept the blowjob because that would make her happier?

Totally does not compute!

If you are a giver why not actually give *her* pleasure? 

You know your wife better than I do, obviously. But seriously, why are none of the options about her receiving the sexual pleaure?


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

UMP said:


> Exactly! I am 54 and we have sex on Tuesdays and Fridays. Every Tues and Friday I watch porn (before sex) to get my motor in gear.
> It gives me an edge I would not have otherwise.


Lucky for you she doesn't take this personally. If my SO did this, it would totally turn me off. So totally I would probably leave him for it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I don't get this at all :scratchhead:
> 
> You are a giver, and how you give is by not letting your wife give you a blow job? And now you think that a better way to give is to accept the blowjob because that would make her happier?
> 
> ...


I really think you come at everything with such a strong bias that it inhibits your ability to understand what people are saying.

My wife is plenty happy. She had a very unhappy life before we met 27 years ago. She travels a lot. Recently she said that when there's a lot of turbulence the thought has occurred to her that she'd be able to die knowing that she'd gotten everything she wanted in life.

So she's doing okay. 

And yes, she's very sexually satisfied as well. As a giver, I always make that a priority.

I was trying to make a deeper point that people like me, givers who aren't comfortable asking of others, in protecting ourselves from being vulnerable, we often only succeed in denying others the satisfaction of making us happy.

This first occurred to me maybe 30 years ago when I was trying to find someone to pick up a Saturday night for me at a restaurant (a nearly impossible task). I asked someone and they cheerfully said "yes". I was so filled with guilt over asking for a favor that I was compelled to point out all the various benefits for the other person, offered to make it up to them, etc. etc. When I was done extolling the benefits for herself, I noticed that she was noticeably less enthused. It slowly came to me that what I had done was remove the satisfaction she initially felt by doing me a favor. I've since learned that the right move when someone does a nice thing for me is to say "thank you" and show genuine appreciation.

My wife feels guilty that I do so much for her. My asking for a blowjob gives her the chance to even things out in her mind. It also has the side benefit of being a wonderful experience for me. :smile2: Also, by forcing me to focus on my own needs as well, resentment doesn't build up. But, I need to work up the courage to be vulnerable. Not an easy thing.

So, she was in a bad mood about work. She wouldn't have been able to focus on me giving her pleasure. But, by focusing on me and making be happy she would have distracted herself and had the satisfaction of pleasing someone with whom she is very much in love. I could have made her happy but I messed up because I was too worried about protecting myself.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Lucky for you she doesn't take this personally. If my SO did this, it would totally turn me off. So totally I would probably leave him for it.


Sorry don't know how to multi quote.

I agree with you AA, it would turn me off if my SO had to watch porn to be able to have sex with me. I don't have a problem with porn in particular, he watches it, I watch it, we watch it together although at about 5% of what either of us used to watch it. But if he had to resort to porn before sex I doubt I would want to have sex with him at all.

You are only 54 UMP, do you have medical issues that cause you problems?
Mr H is 55, rarely watches porn these days and can easily go twice a day. If anything his drive is getting higher not lower.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Totally disagree dude, but then again she was quoting me.


Lol, it was a joke, as a guy not really interested in how to make love to a man over 50 :grin2:


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> I have a feeling that the above more or less describes what my initiations used to look like...and I thought I was being extremely obvious about it and would get frustrated when he didn't pick up on it. One thing I would change if I could turn back time.


What I said is "You touch my leg every night all night long. So you want to have sex every night all night long?"

And a light bulb went on. She's more obvious now.

I am also a brick. I have had this pointed out in multiple relationships that I fail to pick up on women's queues.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I have a feeling that the above more or less describes what my initiations used to look like...and I thought I was being extremely obvious about it and would get frustrated when he didn't pick up on it. One thing I would change if I could turn back time.


See, I actually find it to be catch 22. Whether consciously or not, it was obvious when my W wanted to start something. Now, the problem is when she didn't want to start something it was obvious as well (it was obvious b/c she acted differently than when she did want to start something if that makes sense). So what ends up happening, and going back to the mental checklist comments before, I see her acting a certain way which falls under the "probably not interested" column, and then I start the whole "should I / should I not go for it" battle in my head.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

Deleted


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

OliviaG said:


> Well, my answer to that would be yes, so be careful what you offer..
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just me or is that typical of many men? But I've always found that they pick up on the slightest cues that indicate things that they want to happen - sometimes they even pick up on cues that have never been sent..lol..! So, that is why I think I felt subtle would work. I guess subtle worked when he was really looking for a cue, but not so much when he wasn't, maybe, looking back.


No, I've really wanted to date a girl and wasn't sure if she was open to it, and then dated her and had her say "what was your problem? I was coming on to you the whole time!"

That includes my wife.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I think that if your wife rarely turns you down, then you *should* go for it, absolutely. The more sex you have the better feelings you have between you and the happier you will both be. So don't overthink it, just go for it.
> 
> If she's always trying to put you off though, I can see why you might have to steel yourself against constant rejection. But she rarely turns you down, was my impression? I would rarely ever turn my husband down too - basically only if he and I were at odds over something serious.


Nope, never turned me down (actually, now that I think of it once, but after we started fooling around she decided to throw out there she didn't like how I was ignoring her parents, total mood killer and kind of a d$ck move when we were already nekked lol).

I agree that I "should" but going along with what Buddy had posted, it is easier said then done, and isn't easy to just shut off the mental checklist when that is how you have been accustomed to working off of for so long (this being both my fault as well as hers). Perfect example, I may have every intention of starting something at night. However, and right now the biggest obstacle being my 2yr old daughter, my W may have a rough time getting her to sleep, so by the time she finally comes to bed she is spent and it is already late. On top of that, my W does not handle lack of sleep well, and when we have sex it does take her a while to fall asleep afterwards. Add all these together (ticks on my mental checklist) and you can see why just going in for the kill knowing she would go along with it can be easier said then done. 

This is a big reason why trying to go away together for a few days or taking off from work so we have the house to ourselves is key, but there is still that pesky I need to work and not go bankrupt thing to contend with :grin2:


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> Its called pornhub and its free ... just gotta figure how old before my boys start their first lesson >


But are those orgasms real?


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Holland said:


> Sorry don't know how to multi quote.
> 
> I agree with you AA, it would turn me off if my SO had to watch porn to be able to have sex with me. I don't have a problem with porn in particular, he watches it, I watch it, we watch it together although at about 5% of what either of us used to watch it.* But if he had to resort to porn before sex I doubt I would want to have sex with him at all.*
> 
> ...


I agree with this, too. I have lived it and it's hurt our sex life so much. It's hurtful when someone has to look at other women in order to get in the mood to have sex with you. It makes you feel like you look like an ogre. Although, I am learning just to shut up and deal. There is no point in talking about how much it hurts me, because he doesn't care. He's going to do it anyway. So, I continue on without saying anything anymore. I guess he assumes that I'm okay with it now despite the years of arguments.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Thanks to some of you on this board, recently I have decided to start initiating again-but it has to be selective because my wife throws off the no go clues of how tired she is daily/or headaches or you name it-so I have decided weekend mornings are the best plan for me to initiate. I was successful back to back Sun mornings in April, which happened to be the 5th and 6th times we have had sex this calendar year. But since then, she has been sick or had her monthly visitor so sex has been off the table. What is interesting to me-had I not initiated back in April, the last time she initiated sex was early March-I have to assume that if I had not initiated in April, I could be potentially looking at a drought of well over two months. I think I need to try again this weekend, maybe the sickness will be gone and my odds might go up. BUT, to tag along with the conversation about men not taking hints-I have been accused of that before but honestly, if the hints given are so subtle that you don't even know they are hints-how good a hint is it really??


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Well her going along with it is a different thing to her really getting into it and enjoying it. *If she'll go along with it but not really lose herself to the enjoyment of it then I would hesitate to start something. If she loses herself to it and really enjoys it though, then I don't think you should hesitate.* I'm assuming a 20 - 30 minute session, not 2 hours, on a weeknight where you're both tired and have to get up early.
> 
> I've always had trouble falling to sleep afterwards too and he would be fast asleep. For me, the Os would keep coming the longer he could keep going so when he stopped, my body was still ready to O. So I couldn't sleep until I had at least one (often a few) more Os by myself (!) Or I could lie there for hours and wait for the feeling to pass, if for some reason he couldn't sleep - that was torture. Because he didn't know that I did this and I wasn't comfortable letting him know (for reasons that can't be rationally explained).


Ah but see that is the challenge per the bolded, it is not clear on any given day which way she is leaning. One day maybe she would welcome it, another day she would go along for the ride but would prefer just to get sleep. There is no difference in the way she approaches me. We have talked about this, still a work in progress on both sides. To be fair as well, until things settle down with my daughter we won't be able to get completely on track.

Once I am done I sleep like a baby :grin2: Sometimes though I do need a bowl of ice cream first lol.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> I agree, my hints would have only been effective if my husband was really looking for them and anticipating them being there. Sometimes he was, sometimes he wasn't.


Flashcards ... create flashcards that a H can refer to at any point to determine what type of hint is being thrown out there (i.e. is that a look of desire or a look of "take the fn garbage out already"!)


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Even if you don't fall asleep for whatever reason, it might be wise to do a very convincing job of pretending to be sound asleep.


Haha, I would just lay there awake while she spent the next hour browsing her phone, I am better off going downstairs to eat my ice cream lol



OliviaG said:


> Lol...I read a thread here a while back where someone bought specific panties for his wife, which if she was wearing them, was his to be his "I want it" signal. He did this because his wife had so much trouble initiating (she felt awkward about it and so didn't do it).
> 
> So he had different style/pattern to indicate different styles of sex so she could be very specific!
> 
> I thought that was an ingenious idea.


Great idea ... or create panties that are kind of like a mood ring (scratch that, not sure I want to know all the kinds of moods going on down there!) :grin2:


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> My wife feels guilty that I do so much for her. My asking for a blowjob gives her the chance to even things out in her mind. It also has the side benefit of being a wonderful experience for me. :smile2: Also, by forcing me to focus on my own needs as well, resentment doesn't build up. But, I need to work up the courage to be vulnerable. Not an easy thing.
> 
> So, she was in a bad mood about work. She wouldn't have been able to focus on me giving her pleasure. But, by focusing on me and making be happy she would have distracted herself and had the satisfaction of pleasing someone with whom she is very much in love. I could have made her happy but I messed up because I was too worried about protecting myself.


I'm afraid I still don't understand this at all. If I were the restaurant staff who took your shift, I would've been thinking something along the lines of "dude, are you kidding me? why are you trying to spin this as a favour for me?"

And for your wife, I'm thinking it sounds pretty similar. Especially if you are going to resent her because you didn't do this wonderful favour for her.

But hey, that's me. Must be that I'm just a taker that would be thrilled to have someone give me orgasms to take my mind of other things, and would most certainly see it as a favour to me.


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

I think there is a lot to be said about the really great feeling of being "wanted" in a sexual way with respect to which partner initiates sex. 

I end up initiating a vast majority of the time, whether that involves suggesting a sex date, or simply grabbing my wife and ravaging her. My hypothesis is that "responsive desire" that so many women seem to have is largely based on the feeling of being wanted in a sexual way by their partners. Men are generally not this way based on testosterone driving their sexual behavior and the idea that many men simply are not pursued sexually by their wives the same way that men tend to pursue their women.

Several years ago, my wife went through the "hormonal surge" that many TAM women have described. It was definitely caused by some increase in testosterone. Over the course of six months or so, she became more lean and toned, her pubic hair got visibly thicker and darker, and she wanted sex ALL the time. She would be constantly lubricated and wet (involuntarily), and had to wear panty shields and keep a spare pair at her office. She thought about sex frequently, like a teenage boy. She resorted to masturbating regularly for the first time in her life to the point of having to admit it to me because she was doing it so much.

I can tell you that during this time, she initiated almost every time we had sex. She would sext me at work, pull me into the bedroom and shut the door for a quickie, or she would just slide my hand down her pants while we were sitting on the sofa. We both really enjoyed ourselves sexually for about 8 or 10 months until the surge subsided, then it was back to how it always had been from an initiation standpoint.

The sole exception to that time was a few years ago, we went away to a tropical locale for our 25th anniversary. She became very sexually charged, and she initiated most of the sex on that trip, and the sex we did have was AMAZING.

So when we discuss sex, and when I tell her that it really gets me hot and makes me feel wanted when she pursues me sexually, I know she gets what I am saying, but i think mentally and biochemically, she has a very hard time picking up the "initiation baton" and running with it. When I tell her how great it would make me feel if she would just sext me during the day every now and then, and say something like "I'm feeling horny, I would love to have you fvck me hard tonight", she just has a hard time wrapping her head around that despite having done that many times in the past when her hormones were driving her sexual behavior.

I honestly think it is mostly a testosterone-driven phenomenon that is buttressed by social gender roles and mores.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

keeper63 said:


> I think there is a lot to be said about the really great feeling of being "wanted" in a sexual way with respect to which partner initiates sex.
> 
> I end up initiating a vast majority of the time, whether that involves suggesting a sex date, or simply grabbing my wife and ravaging her. My hypothesis is that "responsive desire" that so many women seem to have is largely based on the feeling of being wanted in a sexual way by their partners. Men are generally not this way based on testosterone driving their sexual behavior and the idea that many men simply are not pursued sexually by their wives the same way that men tend to pursue their women.
> 
> ...



I completely agree and can relate to everything you've written here. 

I would add that women who experience responsive desire are also hampered by a negative body image that contributes to a hesitation to initiate sex. In my 40's I made real progress in having a realistic body image.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I'm afraid I still don't understand this at all. If I were the restaurant staff who took your shift, I would've been thinking something along the lines of "dude, are you kidding me? why are you trying to spin this as a favour for me?"


Exactly. That's no doubt what she was thinking. I made the mistake of doing this. I try not to do it anymore. Now, when someone does me a favor, I say "Thanks a lot, I really appreciate this".



always_alone said:


> And for your wife, I'm thinking it sounds pretty similar. Especially if you are going to resent her because you didn't do this wonderful favour for her.


You're missing this. I might build up resentment if I only do things for my wife and she never does anything for me. Our basic natures will cause that to happen. I could hope that she'd change and be more like me, but that's not going to happen. So it's up to me to break the cycle.

She's self-centered by nature and unlikely to look out for my interests on her own. But, she's more than happy to do what I ask, as long as I ask. My tendency is to protect myself from being vulnerable by not asking that my needs be met. That builds resentment (which is stupid since it's my own damn fault). 

So, when I ask; my needs are met; I'm happier; she's happier. Even knowing this intellectually, it's not easy for me. 

I'm just pointing out that as obvious as this is for a taker (ask for what you want), it's not necessarily obvious to a giver. And, by taking once in a while, we sometimes can give more effectively.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> However, and right now the biggest obstacle being my 2yr old daughter, my W may have a rough time getting her to sleep, so by the time she finally comes to bed she is spent and it is already late.


Solving the 2 yr old bedtime needs to be your #1 priority.

My wife and I had a similar problem. We went the "let him scream" route (check every 30 minutes or so, but not in response to the crying).

Hardest two nights of my life, but well worth it.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Solving the 2 yr old bedtime needs to be your #1 priority.
> 
> My wife and I had a similar problem. We went the "let him scream" route (check every 30 minutes or so, but not in response to the crying).
> 
> Hardest two nights of my life, but well worth it.


Agreed. Downside, unless I lock her bedroom door, she just comes into out room (she is in a converted crib / bed). Part of the issue as well, and honestly it is tough to get on my W about this since I don't typically get home from work until after 7pm which naturally makes it harder, the kids are getting settled down too late. Even though my 2 older boys go to bed at 8:30pm without a fight, between eating / baths / etc.... everyone is running around until the last minute, which as you would expect keeps my daughter wound up. I am trying to work with my W on this, but like I said, me getting home late makes it harder.


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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

Dang, if someone could bottle up the "testosterone surge" into a pill, and if men could convince their wives to take such pill, imagine how life could be!! Course folks might not get as much work done but I would love for my wife to have this "surge" even if for just a week or two.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

PAPS18 said:


> Dang, if someone could bottle up the "testosterone surge" into a pill, and if men could convince their wives to take such pill, imagine how life could be!! Course folks might not get as much work done but I would love for my wife to have this "surge" even if for just a week or two.


There is stuff no doubt, but I guess the tradeoff would be kissing your wife who now has a full beard


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

OliviaG said:


> Not if the dose is right, ER!


Screw that OG, go big all the way :smthumbup::gun:


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## CatJayBird (Oct 5, 2015)

lol...you guys crack me up!! 

I approve of this thread as well...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

OliviaG said:


> It has been bottled, but it's in a cream form. Her doctor can prescribe it!


What's the medical community's view of this? I'd expect a lot of doctors would resist.

What's the view of this by the "don't do anything that's not _natural_" communities?

There's a lot of resistance to T-Therapy from these groups.

Also, the people that need these things are the one's that are most likely to think they don't need them.

It would be nice if dealing with libido problems became more widely acceptable. Don't know how to make this happen.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

OliviaG, the issues then becomes the person admitting or wanting to improve their current situation. If they are ok with it as it is (think they are completely normal), no way they ask for a doctor to help-by prescribing. There is also the negative tradeoff's that most are aware of with T, growing facial and body hair being a big one. For my wife and I imagine others like her, the only way she would agree to take any form of T is if the doctor told her she really needed to for health reasons. So maybe I need to bribe her doctor.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## PAPS18 (May 17, 2012)

We shall see, I know she is due for her yearly appt at some point soon, for now the BCP seem to be what her doctor feels comfortable having her on-but I have to think at some point being now over 45 that the doc will say no more to BCP. I am quite sure the doctor doesn't ask her about her sex life but if she does, I am sure my wife says it is fine because in her mind it is very normal. As I stated in another post, thanks to reading here, I am now starting to initiate again-I just have to try to read the signs for when I know I at least have a shot at her saying yes. We are at 6x for 2016, so just over 1x a month right now, but until April I was letting her do all the initiating. I have tried twice in the past 4 weeks and been successful both times-in the morning on a weekend. You might ask why so few tries, well because Flo was visiting one weekend and the other she was sick and not feeling well. So this weekend might be my next try-it will have been three weeks for us so usually my odds are pretty good.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I think it is super sad that this thread has now degenerated into "fixing" women's sexuality with testosterone.

According to WebMD: Testosterone for Women


> There is no solid link between a woman's high testosterone and high sex drive, nor between low sex drive and low testosterone. You can have a low testosterone level in your body and have a normal sex drive or have high testosterone and very little interest in sex.


Testosterone may drive male sexuality (it doesn't, but at least there is more of a case for it), but it doesn't drive women's. 

Unfortunately, however, every discussion we have about sexuality ends up about how women fail to meet men's needs, and if only we had a magic pill to fix them.

Discussion about how men might fail to meet women's needs? Well that too is all women's fault. Sigh.


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## wantshelp (Mar 10, 2016)

always_alone said:


> I think it is super sad that this thread has now degenerated into "fixing" women's sexuality with testosterone.
> 
> According to WebMD: Testosterone for Women
> 
> ...


Ah come on always_alone, you know it cuts both ways, although men do gravitate to "fixing" things. I agree that testosterone is not a silver bullet for either gender, but there is no denying that hormone balance has an impact on libido in both men and women.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I think it is super sad that this thread has now degenerated into "fixing" women's sexuality with testosterone.
> 
> According to WebMD: Testosterone for Women
> 
> ...




What drives the surge in sex drive pre menopause is not testosterone. It's actually estrogen. As out bodies slow down with the egg production our pituitary gland doesn't always recognize this as aging and normal. It responds to the egg slow down by shooting out MORE estrogen to get those eggs maturing and ready for fertilization. 

It is estrogen that causes the surge in drive, not testosterone.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

What clued me in to my wife's "sex surge" phase (for about 8-10 months in 2011 and 2012) being driven by testosterone were the other secondary sex characteristics (reduction in body fat, increased pubic hair growth, increased muscle tone, slight but noticeable increase in the size of her clitoris, etc.). By the way, she had a complete hysterectomy with both ovaries also removed in 2004, and has been on estrogen HRT ever since.

All of those secondary characteristics eventually returned to their "pre-surge" state, except her cl!t did not get smaller. Granted my sample size is very small.

However, I think there is a preponderance of evidence that points to the relationship between increased T and increased libido in both males and females.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

always_alone said:


> I think it is super sad that this thread has now degenerated into "fixing" women's sexuality with testosterone.
> 
> According to WebMD: Testosterone for Women
> 
> ...


I agree. I have a lovely girlfriend at the moment and my sex drive is through the roof. I imagine it is the same for many people (men and women) that they are LD as they have unattractive spouses. Sometimes 'unattractive' just means they have been with them a long time or unappreciative, but it is still that way.

I would add the caveat that it is far from always the case. If sex is always a lot of work for the pleasure, laziness will play a part (my wife would take most of an hour to orgasm, I suspect she lost interest in sex as she started being less willing to put effort into life).


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@OliviaG

Interesting. How long did your surge in drive last? Mine lasted a good 8 years. All during that time I had irregular and unpredictable periods. Some super heavy, some light, some lasting 2-3 days, some lasting 10 days. within a few months after my period stopped, so did my sex drive and my ability to orgasm. I went to a menopause specialist who told me my drive was caused by estrogen spikes. She tested my testosterone and said it was 47 which I think is normal for women. I wanted my sex drive back!!!!

So I'm in HRT, estrogen patch and take progesterone at night. So I should be at a constant level...right? No! I still go through several days when I really want sex but the rest of the time...meh.


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## RainbowBrite (Dec 30, 2015)

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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Yup, the bolded is pretty much spot on. Things are much better now, but I can easily think of 5-10+ times in the past 1-2 months where I wanted to initiate and didn't (going through my mental checklist). By the time I decided I literally was so mentally exhausted it wasn't even worth initiating lol. The added complication we have right now is young children so a schedule (as much as I can see that adding a benefit) still runs in to issues. We are trying to find some middle ground, still a work in progress but most importantly we are both committed to making it work.


I know that this is an oddly late response. But your situation has been running through my mind for a couple of days, I think I've got a better way to handle it, I'm not doing anything interesting and so I decided to look up the post and reply.

You and I have a unique problem; if we initiate sex with our wives, we know that we won't be turned down. Knowing that makes us worry about taking advantage of their willingness to fulfill our needs and that causes us to hold back from asking. Not many men are in this situation.

About the only thing that we are certain will work is for our wives to initiate. But, that's not really fair to them. Just as men like women to initiate so that he feels desired, I'm sure our wives feel the same way, It's not fair to put the responsibility for satisfying our needs all on them. Also, it just doesn't feel quite right. My wife spent a month or two asking me almost every day(some days more than once) if I wanted a blowjob and, as cool as that might sound, it didn't really work for me.

If we've got a problem asking for things, then that's something we really have a responsibility to work on, right? We've got to get more comfortable putting ourselves out there.

So, my big idea.....

I'd tell your wife that, when you initiate, it is entirely okay for her to say no as long as she gives you a rain check for a specific future time and makes sure to follow through. It also wouldn't hurt if she said it like "I'd love to honey, but I'm really exhausted. How about ......". Tell her you'd prefer this since you really don't want her to exert herself when she's just not up for it. This also lets her know when sex is coming so that she can prepare herself for it (take a nap, sleep in, etc.) and she doesn't have to deal with wondering every night whether or not she's going to get a decent night's sleep.

Hopefully this should do a few good things:

1) Enable to you initiate more often with out worrying that you're making her do something that she's just not up for.

2) Your initiating will let her know you desire her (on a regular basis)

3) Not make you wary of initiating due to fear of rejection (well, a little rejection, but you need to man up about this).

4) Give her some control over sex without requiring her to have total control (if she's a normal woman, she probably doesn't want full control).

Of course, she's still free to initiate when she wants to.

Oh, and one more thing..... PLEASE change the GD avatar!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

I still don't understand why one would view sex as something you just take and don't give.

Flipping that script would surely help improve your sex life. Wouldn't it? This attitude that sex is for male needs only is part of what turns a whole lot of women off and makes it difficult for them to get into it, and to orgasm.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Hmmmmmm the whole menopause thing has me and W confused. Her mom drifted into it easily and it was all over. W is 54 and now periods (last 2) are irregular and strange. I think weight and exercise and hydration matter greatly in a woman's hormonal balance - but that's anecdotal with a sample size of 1.

Don't know what that means for sex drive but we're watching and mindful. 

She has never initiated nor expressed desires explicitly - a good catholic girl







- but has responsive desire. So we're on a daily sex regiment over the past 18 months or so (decided to take the bull by the horns and just go for intimacy and sex - why not, life is too short). Plus I had a prostate scare end of last year with 12 biopsy cores taken but thankfully no C (but fun shooting blood for several weeks - they don't make a big deal of that ha ha.)

All these things mean we just don't know what's around the corner and want to enjoy what we have when we have it. Too bad we were young once and didn't have that attitude our whole marriage. Would have been over 12,000 encounters over the past 30+ years according to my calculator... Yikes. I guess I now believe enjoy today if you can and avoid regrets later.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

@Buddy400 - thanks for the response. It is about 7am and I have to start rounding up the kids for our Saturday kids baseball/soccer all day fest ... but will respond back with some thoughts later tonight or tomorrow (in agreement with your line of thinking, even changed my avatar  )


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

always_alone said:


> I still don't understand why one would view sex as something you just take and don't give.
> 
> Flipping that script would surely help improve your sex life. Wouldn't it? This attitude that sex is for male needs only is part of what turns a whole lot of women off and makes it difficult for them to get into it, and to orgasm.


Also, not really quite sure who this post is directed at tbh. If it is directed at the conversation b/w Buddy and myself I don't see how it has any relevance to what we are talking about. Maybe it was just a more general comment at this thread, IDK.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> [MENTION=154305] (in agreement with your line of thinking, even changed my avatar  )


Now I'm kinda regretting asking for the change!:surprise:


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Plus I had a prostate scare end of last year with 12 biopsy cores taken but thankfully no C (*but fun shooting blood for several weeks *- they don't make a big deal of that ha ha.)


Yeah, that was pretty bizarre. I wasn't going to tell the wife about the biopsy until I knew the results, but that would have been kind of hard to do! No finishing in her mouth with that going on!


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> TheTruthHurts said:
> 
> 
> > Plus I had a prostate scare end of last year with 12 biopsy cores taken but thankfully no C (*but fun shooting blood for several weeks *- they don't make a big deal of that ha ha.)
> ...


Got a bunch of condoms - man it's been decades since I had to use them. Had to try several cause they didn't fit. Ha ha the magnum ones are basically regular size but named so guys feel "big". Finally found magnum XL if you can believe it - fit fine but they are about 3 ft long (well maybe not but I sure wasn't filling out the length  ). By the time I had it figured out the blood red ejaculate stopped. Good times


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I know that this is an oddly late response. But your situation has been running through my mind for a couple of days, I think I've got a better way to handle it, I'm not doing anything interesting and so I decided to look up the post and reply.
> 
> You and I have a unique problem; if we initiate sex with our wives, we know that we won't be turned down. Knowing that makes us worry about taking advantage of their willingness to fulfill our needs and that causes us to hold back from asking. Not many men are in this situation.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the late response, haven't been online much the past few days (and the time spent online was researching new avatars )

So for the 1st half of your post, 100% agreed. You know something as well, I used to be a lot more comfortable with asking for things (not walking up to my W and asking for a BJ per se, but never had an issue initiating, starting something in the middle of the night while she was sleeping, etc...). This was all "pre kids". Once we had kids, less alone time, mental checklist, etc... kicked in and the ease of initiating quickly went out the window (in part b/c similar to you I am not a taker). You get to the point where you spend a good many years under this new "approach" where it actually gets hard to revert back to your old self (i.e. even though I know it should be easy to just initiate, it is easier now to convince myself otherwise, if that makes sense).

Now on to your idea, I definitely like it and funny enough, these are some of the very things my W and I talked about several months ago  She even opened it up to the point where she said she would be fine if I wanted to initiate 3+ times a week (in part to go along with #1 of your post above). When I sat down and talked to her about this stuff, things were definitely better (on both our parts in terms of initiating, etc...). We have just hit a bump in the road again, not really related to us as much as dealing with our daughter now (between it getting darker later, allergies, possible growth spurt, etc... getting her to bed at a reasonable hour and then sleeping through the night has been an issue on a daily basis). The initiating topic gets challenging when only having maybe 5-10 minutes alone time on a daily basis (some days zero). I think for the time being, I need to keep trying to plan alone time (either taking a day off from work, going away for the weekend, etc...) where possible (plus, the initiation topic becomes moot when we are alone since we are both ready to go  ). On top of that, until things settle down with my daughter, my W and I may just have to agree to some sort of schedule so we don't have long dry streaks get in the way.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> even though I know it should be easy to just initiate, it is easier now to convince myself otherwise, if that makes sense.


I've been there. I know exactly what you're going through.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

There are plenty of ways to alter your hormone levels quite naturally if you want to.

When I'm on a muscle building tear, I purposefully and quite easily increase my T. When my wife follows a similar diet and exercise routine, her T seems to go up as well -- in terms of libido, increase in muscle mass, etc.

It's actually quite fascinating. You can tell much of your hormone levels based on where your body carries and stores fat. Men: if you have moobs, your T is likely being aromatized into estrogen... As an example. You can also increase your intake of minerals to counteract this, but also decrease you carb intake and increase your protein and good fat intake. Oh, and lift heavy things.

Want a quick way to up your T? Think about sex.


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