# In sickness and in health



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I want to discuss the “in sickness” part of the marriage vows.

If your spouse fell into a depression or other mental illness so deep that they were basically non-functional for a long time, years, what do you do? How much do you do to work with them?


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## Chelle D (Nov 30, 2011)

Ouch... I pray that will never happen.

I'm sure it has happened to some.
It's human nature to want to give up at some point. But I guess, I would stick to getting them as much therapy (both marriage & individual) as possible.

Hopefully there would be some kind of regiment (medicine & therapy) that would end up working to make them functional.


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## curlysue321 (Jul 30, 2012)

I take my vows very seriously. My husband's grandfather had Alzheimer's and now his dad has it too. Things tend to run in families. I would not leave my husband if he lost his mind. I would be there for him. 

I have bipolar disorder and had a psychotic episode when we were dating. Hubby was there for me. I asked him why he didn't dump me and he simply said, "it wasn't your fault." If my spouse became ill I would not leave him for something that wasn't his fault.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

A lot of mental illness is not as clear cut as Alzheimers. 

A person becomes a shadow of themself. They won't leave the house. They accomplish little to nothing. IT's hard to pinpoint what's going on.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Ele, I think both my husband and I are in this boat - regarding our respective issues.

I think when progress stops completely (and most mental illnesses/disorders can be improved upon) that would be the end-all for each of us.

Of course, I am ridiculously tolerant. Maybe it's because I know no one is perfect. My husband's depression and narcissism can be incredibly draining - as I'm sure my anxiety and restless energy can be for him...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Yin, I read once that people pick their partners based on matching emotional states. 

Perhaps this means that your and his mental issues 'complement' each other.

Interesting thought...


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I think so... I've known this for awhile. We are pretty much experiencing what the other is lacking at any given time. My husband once said that is what makes he and I "whole".

Doesn't make it anymore comfortable, though. And I'm smart enough to realize that if I leave him, I'll just end up with another "him" somewhere down the line. Better to sit it out and get myself sorted before I make any major decisions.

I'd like to think that I've otherwise made great adaptations in my mental well-being and perceptions, with a few set-backs. He is a little slower to progress. I think his motivation (or lack of) is directly related to his denial.

It drives me crazy! (No pun intended)  
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Denial is often what keeps people from getting the help they need. 

If he does not keep up with you, some day you might grow beyond him. That will most likely be when you leave (if you ever do).


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

For me, it's physical ailment or illness/problem.

Hubs races cars and rides a motorcycle. He's WAY more cautious since having a child but I still worry.

I couldn't see turning my back on him though...however...I have a friend whose husband left her after 24 years of her BAD depression and she didn't blame him. Everyone has a breaking point.


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

How do you know the difference between a worthless spouse that deserves to be left behind and someone with a "mental illness" that deserves a spouse to stand by and help?

If YOU are sick then YOU should be working to get better. This is true whether you have bonified illness like MS or one of the fashionable "mental illness" like video game addiction. 

Once you give up on yourself then it's not reasonable to expect someone else to stand there and support you.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

For me, "in sickness" would be a problem for me if my partner refused to take steps to address his illness AND the illness caused harm to me. 

Although I take my vows seriously, I'm not a martyr for them. In my mind, they are a contract, and just like any contract, I'll do my utmost to hold up my end, but when there is a breach by someone else, it may not be possible. 

Alcoholism is an illness that comes to mind. Denial's part of the illness, but when my partner's illness means he's not honoring the marriage contract to love and honor me, then the illness requires more than simply loving my partner and serving him. It requires me to betray myself to a large degree, which is not found in the marriage contract. No different than losing a job and ending up in foreclosure despite one's best efforts to uphold their contract to pay.


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## Mrs. Lima bean (Dec 2, 2012)

If the guy is neglagent of his health and not taking steps to take care of himself it is unfair for the women to become caretaker of him when he becomes ill from his negligence. To me the vow of for sickness and health.....should be referred to sickeness you helplessly contracted. You can help some in their negligence but you can't help someone thats not helping themselves at the same time.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

This is a good question. I'll hold back my opinion for now, but am interested in people's answers.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I am going through the mental illness part right now with my husband. He has been diagnosed bipolar, agoraphobic, anxiety, and ADD. He was originally diagnosed with "just" depression. It has taken 4+ YEARS for the doctors to finally get a combination that works for him. 

Though I lost sight of it for awhile, I vowed "in sickness and in health"... NOT "as long as it is convenient for me to deal with your illness". But that's my personal opinion on the subject.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I am going through the mental illness part right now with my husband. He has been diagnosed bipolar, agoraphobic, anxiety, and ADD. He was originally diagnosed with "just" depression. It has taken 4+ YEARS for the doctors to finally get a combination that works for him.
> 
> Though I lost sight of it for awhile, I vowed "in sickness and in health"... NOT "as long as it is convenient for me to deal with your illness". But that's my personal opinion on the subject.


When a person has a physcial illness it's usually something that is more easily accepted as something real that the spouse has little to no control over.

Mental illness is often much harder to 'see'. 

Your husband is a lucky man to have a wife who has helped him through this. How is he doing now? Is the change in him significant?


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

I, too, am diagnosed with bipolar I disorder. My wife knew this going in, but she judged me by my character, not my illness. There have been times when the illness is worse (like lately, as a result of her infidelity), and better, when I've been in "remission."

As we reconcile, I have asked her several times, "when contemplating the future, can you handle the fact that you will always be married to a sick person?" She has said that she's all-in, and that this is not really a factor. I'm surprised, and pleased, by this. My illness does not make things easier, but I do my best to keep her apprised of my current condition.

I've got to say that something has occurred to me many, many times as I read TAM: just how serious are people about the *words* of their marriage vows? We all totally understand the concept, obviously, but if pressed, could we even recite our own wedding vows?


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Let's also not forget that some mental illness, particularly if the spouse won't get therapy/treatment can make them a danger to themselves and others. 

If you choose to stay with them, and they don't want to improve upon the situation, you could literally be taking your life, and the lives of your children in your hands. 

This isn't about not wanting to follow your vows, but - at a certain point, you can love someone, but not be around them until you are certain they won't murder you.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When a person has a physcial illness it's usually something that is more easily accepted as something real that the spouse has little to no control over.
> 
> Mental illness is often much harder to 'see'.
> 
> Your husband is a lucky man to have a wife who has helped him through this. How is he doing now? Is the change in him significant?


I think his is more... Bipolar II. He goes from VERY depressed to "normal". He hasn't had a true "manic" phase, as most recognize with bipolar disorder. I think THAT was why it was so difficult for them to diagnose properly. He has improved. He is able to go out and do more things with us now. Not as much as we would like, but definitely more than even a year ago. But he, and we, have been doing much better now that the medications are working properly. I can see a definite change in him. Before, he hardly got along with ANYONE. Now? He and my mom are able to talk without malicious undertones. So, yes, a very significant difference.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> Let's also not forget that some mental illness, particularly if the spouse won't get therapy/treatment can make them a danger to themselves and others.
> 
> If you choose to stay with them, and they don't want to improve upon the situation, you could literally be taking your life, and the lives of your children in your hands.
> 
> This isn't about not wanting to follow your vows, but - at a certain point, you can love someone, but not be around them until you are certain they won't murder you.


Oh ABSOLUTELY! If he wasn't seeking treatment, and he was exhibiting signs of being a danger to himself and/or others, especially the kids, I would go. I would leave unless/until he DID seek treatment. Fortunately, for us, it didn't come to that.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

east2west said:


> How do you know the difference between a worthless spouse that deserves to be left behind and someone with a "mental illness" that deserves a spouse to stand by and help?
> 
> If YOU are sick then YOU should be working to get better. This is true whether you have bonified illness like MS or one of the fashionable "mental illness" like video game addiction.
> 
> Once you give up on yourself then it's not reasonable to expect someone else to stand there and support you.


This is something that I realized not long ago. I have said many times here that a "sick" person and a "healthy" person do not get together... And if they do, it doesn't last very long.

In my situation, my current perception is that both my husband and I are "sick". Like Ele said, though, when one of us "wakes up" and starts growing beyond the other, that dynamic irreversibly changes.

We were well-matched so long as I could be the victim and he could be the crazy-maker. Now that I take accountability for my actions and I'm more aware of his tactics, I can no longer make myself a victim.

This is GOOD for me! But probably will result in the end of my marriage.

I gave my husband 6 months to get some help and show some improvement... That 6 months is almost up. He's on Prozac, which doesn't improve his mood AT ALL. For me, I just see it as a replacement to the Tramadol he was taking, and he is in massive denial about this. We are both in IC, and we both are in MC, but his ability to implement healthier ways of interpersonal relations is obviously something he's struggling with.

Last night, we talked about this briefly and he said to me, "What if I never learn anything in therapy? What if I never improve?" He said this in a very challenging manner, which leads me to believe that he is still in denial and unable to take accountability for himself and his actions.

So what am I going to do about it? (I'm still conflicted). :scratchhead:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> I am going through the mental illness part right now with my husband. He has been diagnosed bipolar, agoraphobic, anxiety, and ADD. He was originally diagnosed with "just" depression. It has taken 4+ YEARS for the doctors to finally get a combination that works for him.


Truly scary!

My husband has only been diagnosed with depression and social anxiety... But I suspect there is much, much more going on.

However, getting him or anyone else to listen is futile. He is SO GOOD at playing himself off as "ok" and not showing who he really is to anyone but me. I honestly think he has an underling mental or medical condition beyond what he's been diagnosed with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

This brings up another question for me, (I hope you don't mind, Ele!)

When your spouse (or yourself) is depressed and taking anti-d meds... How much of a difference can you expect to see? I know they can take several weeks to work, but I'm really wondering is if it can/will shift a negative personality into a "better" place, for lack of better words... :scratchhead:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope Springs Eternal (Oct 6, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> Last night, we talked about this briefly and he said to me, "What if I never learn anything in therapy? What if I never improve?" He said this in a very challenging manner, which leads me to believe that he is still in denial and unable to take accountability for himself and his actions.
> 
> So what am I going to do about it? (I'm still conflicted). :scratchhead:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I wasn't there to detect the actual tone of what your H said, but to me, this seems like introspective thinking; he's wondering if he _can_ get better. I'd take that as a positive sign, rather than a discouragement. He's trying to assess himself.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Hope Springs Eternal said:


> Well, I wasn't there to detect the actual tone of what your H said, but to me, this seems like introspective thinking; he's wondering if he _can_ get better. I'd take that as a positive sign, rather than a discouragement. He's trying to assess himself.


Yeah, I realized when I wrote that, that it sounded more introspective... But I added that he said it in a very challenging manner, because that's how he said it. He was very snarky, smirking all the while and basically implying that the ball is in my court. He even added, "so what are you going to do about it?" Again, very hostile about it.

I guess I know my answer but I don't want to accept it yet. :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> Last night, we talked about this briefly and he said to me, "What if I never learn anything in therapy? What if I never improve?" He said this in a very challenging manner, which leads me to believe that he is still in denial and unable to take accountability for himself and his actions.
> 
> So what am I going to do about it? (I'm still conflicted). :scratchhead:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ooh, that'd make me mad! And I'd give him the honest answer, "I'll dump your butt if you're not capable of learning anything in counseling." 




Hope Springs Eternal said:


> I've got to say that something has occurred to me many, many times as I read TAM: just how serious are people about the *words* of their marriage vows? We all totally understand the concept, obviously, but if pressed, could we even recite our own wedding vows?


The typical marriage vows say we will "take this person as your lawfully wedded spouse; to love and respect him/her; in health and in sickness; in prosperity and in adversity; and leaving all others, to keep yourself only unto him/her so long as both shall live." 

I'm sure there are dozens of ways to interpret that, especially if you incorporate a particular religion's beliefs, but my personal interpretation is that it says I will do those things as long as I live AND am lawfully wedded, but it does not prohibit becoming lawfully unwedded, either. I can read it the other way, that I will remain lawfully wedded until death, but for me it hinges on the idea of what is lawful. For instance, what is lawful in one area is different in another (common law vs. sanctioned marriages.) Because the vows relate to an idea that is created by man, and divorce is part of the lawfulness of marriage, I don't have an objection to it when that lawful marriage violates one's will to survive and thrive.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

KathyBatesel said:


> Ooh, that'd make me mad! And I'd give him the honest answer, "I'll dump your butt if you're not capable of learning anything in counseling."


Oh I did... In not so many words. I know everyone here probably thinks I'm the biggest pushover, but if had said something like that to me a year ago I would have sat and cried and felt sorry for myself.

This time I just looked him in the eyes and calmly said, "I don't think I can be attracted to someone who isn't involved in their own personal growth".

He seemed to act like I was joking or putting on a front. That's okay. That's his malfunction, not mine.

I think this thread has really defined some very important things for me... One being that my hub can "pretend" to be getting help, and actually is NOT being helped at all.

As Conrad would say, "I'm not ok with that".

I can see now that I've been (maybe) taking my vows a little too literally.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> Oh I did... In not so many words. I know everyone here probably thinks I'm the biggest pushover, but if had said something like that to me a year ago I would have sat and cried and felt sorry for myself.
> 
> This time I just looked him in the eyes and calmly said, "I don't think I can be attracted to someone who isn't involved in their own personal growth".
> 
> ...


Honestly, Yin, it very well may be that you leaving is what will finally get him to own his illness and truly WORK on it. Just a thought...


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

And I know in my heart, that my leaving would just be a relief to him. He doesn't want to accept the fact that he has issues and he's pushing me away because I'm a reflection of him - I'm his mirror.

I know from past experience that I'll get fed up and leave. I always do. Ironically, it was my "fight or flight" response to issues that I was trying to work on when I started IC. Now I see that my body was trying to tell me something I didn't quite understand, logically.

It'll be some time yet, but I'm not very hopeful that he is going to turn around and make strides to improve his end - for our marriage, or for his sake. :/

I can see that I was definitely suffering some mental illness, and honestly, I STILL am struggling quite a bit with it, but the awareness I have gained has allowed me to vastly improve upon my perceptions and actions. I'm proud of me for that! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Once you remove yourself from the crap, you may be surprised that you, infact, are not having any mental illness at all. You're just so far into the shet, you can't tell if it's your or him or whatever.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

I think that I do have my issues, and I own them, BUT he definitely provides the catalyst to exacerbate them tremendously. No doubt in my mind - but I am still responsible for how I choose to act and the things I choose to say. And I slip up a lot, but I'm much better than I was.

Sorry to hijack your thread, Ele. I'm glad you brought up this discussion... It's been very informative for me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, I was the same, Yin. Then when I got out, I didn't behave that way anymore. It's amazing how some people just bring out the worst in ya.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Honestly, Yin, it very well may be that you leaving is what will finally get him to own his illness and truly WORK on it. Just a thought...


The fine line between supporting and enabling.

I recall years ago an interview of of a couple that divorced in part because of her refusal to get help (I believe it was an eating disorder) while they were married. Getting divorced was her "rock bottom" that inspired her to get help. She admitted that she likely would not have gotten help had he continued to stay married to her.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> I think that I do have my issues, and I own them, BUT he definitely provides the catalyst to exacerbate them tremendously. No doubt in my mind - but I am still responsible for how I choose to act and the things I choose to say. And I slip up a lot, but I'm much better than I was.
> 
> Sorry to hijack your thread, Ele. I'm glad you brought up this discussion... It's been very informative for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have found this to be super true, too. None of us is perfect, and some of us are more "imperfect" than we'd like to be. I don't like the idea of "mentally ill" except in rare occasions. The whole concept of mental illness didn't arise until the 14th century and it was a way of making some people superior to others. (Prior to that, those who did not fit in were either accepted as they were or were celebrated for those differences.) 

But whatever makes us "different" can be magnified and triggered by the things we go through with others.


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> When a person has a physcial illness it's usually something that is more easily accepted as something real that the spouse has little to no control over.
> 
> Mental illness is often much harder to 'see'.


Although physical illnesses are easier to "see", it doesn't make them easy to deal with by any means. Many times, depression and other mental illnesses accompany physical illnesses. I have a chronic medical condition and have gone through bouts of depression in regards to it, along with horrible anxiety. For what ever reason, my husband always stuck by my side, even when we first began dating. He has been my rock and I know if he had issues, I'd be there for him. Although I also know my husband would always be willing to do what ever it took to try to get better as well, as compared to someone who would refuse any type of 'treatment'. If that were the case, I may think a little differently. But as long as he is willing to work on himself, I would stay and try to help him get through it.


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## In_The_Wind (Feb 17, 2012)

My grandmother took care of my grandfather for 20 years he had Parkinson's
And she did everything even had a lift and sunken bath I believe her love helped him live longer
But that was a different generation than now
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> The fine line between supporting and enabling.
> 
> I recall years ago an interview of of a couple that divorced in part because of her refusal to get help (I believe it was an eating disorder) while they were married. Getting divorced was her "rock bottom" that inspired her to get help. She admitted that she likely would not have gotten help had he continued to stay married to her.


Sad thing is, by the time I leave I won't really care if he evolves or not. I'll be done. :/

I think it's sad that one spouse may need the other to leave in order to really open up and examine themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

That's what it took for me. Hubs left and I had to dig deep to change.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

that_girl said:


> That's what it took for me. Hubs left and I had to dig deep to change.


Sorry if that came off as insensitive, TG. I guess, being on the other side of the fence, I'm thinking... Why can't he just see it NOW? With me HERE?

I'm probably a distraction, lol!!

One day I'm gonna have to look back over your story. I think when I joined here, you and hubbs had just gotten "back together". I missed everything before it... But I am so glad you guys are happier than ever now! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I guess it would depend on the TYPE of sickness and the condition of our marriage before/during the sickness.

If he was legitimately working to get better AND our marriage was good at the time of the sickness, I would stick it out. I would be prepared for depression and back-sliding, but if I thought he REALLY wanted to be better and was TRYING, I'd stay.

If he was legitimately working to get better AND our marriage was marginal/bad at the time of the sickness. I'd have to re-assess the situation. I didn't MARRY him for his sickness, I wouldn't STAY because of his sickness, I wouldn't DIVORCE because of his sickness. I'd have to look at WHERE ARE WE and WHERE IS HE?

If the marriage was on it's last legs BEFORE the sickness, I would not let the illness/accident "guilt" me into staying with him. If I was prepared to walk out on him BEFORE the accident/illness, I would still be prepared to walk out on him AFTER the accident/illness.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

YinPrincess said:


> Sorry if that came off as insensitive, TG. I guess, being on the other side of the fence, I'm thinking... Why can't he just see it NOW? With me HERE?
> 
> *I'm probably a distraction, lol!!*
> 
> ...


Actually, Yin, there may be more truth to that than you think. You are there. He can focus his energy on you, although that energy seems to be more negative than positive. If you WEREN'T there, he'd have to focus on himself more often. True, he could still focus energy on you, and the fact that you left, etc. But at some point, he will either move on to someone else to project onto, or he will "right" himself. Either way, YOU will be in a better place, which is what matters for YOU.


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

And when I'm not there, it'll be "out of sight, out of mind". For both of us, unfortunately. :/

Just going to focus on getting my mind "right" because I'm the only one I can really control anyways.

Even though I believe he exacerbates a lot of my "mental conditions" I DO worry that if I leave no one else will ever want to put up with or even like me. I know I'm a difficult person to live with, too! I know logically that's not true, but it's an irrational fear I have. Comes with the anxiety and whatnot, I suppose.

What's weird is: if I'm so awful and intolerable, how come HE doesn't leave ME? How come MY mental illness doesn't make him question his vows? (Or does he even think of them)? Hmmm...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

SGW - I like your perspective on things... Seems "correct" to me! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I suffered from ptsd, depression and anxiety. As a result I was toxic and abusive.

Had I not sought help he should have left me. 

I agree with the part where there is a difference between supporting and enabling. I've fought hard to heal and he has stood by me every step of the way however I refused to go down without a fight and he knows that. I'm willing to do WHATEVER it takes to get and stay healthy. Most aren't. Those are the ones that the in sickness part shouldn't apply to.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

It must be very hard for people who have to face this issue. I am lucky in that my wife is generally very balanced.

If she developed dementia I like to think I would be there for her till the end but I know we all have our limits. I hope never to have to find out how much strength I had. Not as much as I would like, I suspect.

The sad thing is that they stop being the people they were and whom you loved. I have seen this happen with the old and it is not amusing


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