# Just started reading "Women's Infidelity - Living In Limbo"



## Shadow_Nirvana

So, considering my background in infidelity and that I want to move to USA at some point and regarding that I want a family and children at a point... 

I decided to read "Women's Infidelity - Living In Limbo". I understand that I am just begging for triggers, mind movies and anxiety attacks. But if it's gonna help I want to read it.

Did any of you guys read it? Is it a good read? Does it actually bring some solutions to infidelity?


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Seriously, nobody has read it/has opinions about it?


----------



## Gaia

Probably not. Im just curious.... How much of it have you read so far? Yeah im not a man but still curious about this topic. Do you really think it would help you? If so... How?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Quantmflux

Read some of the reviews... Like this one:

"Men, when she says "I do" she means "I do, until I get bored and/or a guy with a bigger/better... um, 'capability' to make me orgasm comes along." That is it. No kidding, you'll be glad you read this. Worth the money and it's MUCH less than alimony or child support for a kid that's not even yours."

Or this one:

"The problem with the book is that the author goes way too far in her sometimes ridiculous attempts to justify women who cheat by claiming it is a result of years of sexism, patriarchy and oppression. It is unclear, why she would do this. Maybe to justify her own history of affairs"

I think that many "self help" books carry such a massive author bias masquerading as objective research that it can almost make them dangerous to read.

I suspect that if I had read a book like this when I was young, I would have *absolutely* stayed single.

Who wants to think that unless you walk an absolute perfect tight rope, endlessly adjusting to perfectly suit the behavior of your partner whose wants and desires you can barely comprehend and they feel no pressure to articulate, you will end up horribly betrayed?

Maybe thats true, and if so thats really terrifying, but personally I'd rather not be that cynical and jaded going in. I can see how it can hurt, but I really don't see how it can "help" honestly.


----------



## Gaia

Wow.... All I have to say is.... I would smack the author if I ever met them in person.... I hate books like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Quantmflux

TO BE FAIR... that was just two reviewers perceptions guys...

They may be WAY off and this book may be excellent.

What I'm saying is I know myself well enough to know that I'd probably not be able to read something like that objectively due to my *own* insecurities.

I hope that makes sense!

I don't mean to take away from that author or her work at all. I guess I'm saying its always "know thyself" and proceed with caution with *any* self help stuff so the impact it has on you doesnt end up negative.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Finished the first book(Women's Infidelity - Living In Lımbo). Yeah yeah I know very fvcked up that reading a book that would seemingly effect my life in 5 or so years later... but it was enlightening in not only female infidelity but other concepts as well. Fvck people, I wish I was studying towards my med school board(which is in frigging 6-7 months!) exams this enthusiastically.

The book is written as a conversation between her and her friend who has found his wife to have checked out of the marriage and/or having an affair.

I enjoyed it and it somewhat changed how I view female sexuality, some of the reasons for infidelity( actually reasons for the low boundaryies and the feeling of the affair partner as soulmates...), the concept of conditional love under the guise of "unconditional" love, the use of shame as a sexual deterrent, male paternal insecurity, how seeing women "naturally monogamous" inhibits them from learning about their sexuality and making conscious decisions to actually become "consciously and willingly monogamous" etc.

It also gives interesting insight to the concept of marriage in western countries: How men and women are conditioned to commitment, but how it actually makes commitment "less". How people actually think of life as having end points. I have to say I realized this, too, both in my own life and others, basically we are conditioned to this "happily ever after" concept, thus we actually don't make the effort of understanding ourselves or work on life. Maybe it's Disney and cartoons(where life is inherently joy-bringing and no extra effort is needed) or the fact that feel-good movies that have the effect of in the end things will always work out in a politically correct way and they will stay that way forever.

The writer seems to have come to terms with her infidelity and her "so called reasons" (Actually it's not mentioned in the book that she cheated or not, but she definitely checked out of her marriage for some time) She actually confesses that female infidelity created in her and obviously a lot of other married women, the same feeling black people had after OJ Simpson was acquitted. I have to commend her for being actually inquisitive enough to look inside. Not many wayward or betrayed spouses are unfortunately able to do that. 

It actually comes as having "No More Mr. Nice Guy" concepts near the end, as she explains to her friend, that whatever happens it can only hurt him as much as he lets them, how he can handle anything if he makes a conscious decision, how his actions should not come out of fear but out of strength from knowing that etc.

It also has some TAM concepts of dealing with the infidelity of your wife. There are stories of several husbands, who even after years of their wives separating and blatant proofs that pointed to affairs, couldn't come to realize that they were in affairs, that they weren't the "sexually unwilling good girl" that society has led every frigging person to believe. There are also two(unfortunately only two) stories of men who moved on without becoming codependent and without letting fear put unnecessary inhibitions on their actions. One of them reconciled, setting strong boundaries and necessities he would need to reconcile. One of them just moved on and when his wife tried to come back he realized that his life was actually better after making a conscious decision and sticking with it, so he didn't want his wife back and continues with the divorce instead.

I found the book very insightful. At times it had me soulsearching, why I wanted a woman to be monogamous to me and whether it was realistical to be monogamous on those grounds. It gave me a clear view of how women do not "lose" any of their inherent values from sex, and the male doesn't "gain" any inherent value after sex. It also brought me to the realization that holding onto some of the misguided marriage 1.0 values(in both men and women) was actually destructive to the enjoyment we could get from marriage 2.0(my words not the authors)Coming from a sort of conservative background and living in a country where females are a bit second class(although we weirdly don't have any economic gap between genders.) and female sexuality is condemned, although I thought of myself as a bit more progressive from the rest, I was letting unnecessary insecurities guide my perception of women. It also encourages having more honest, meaningful and bonding relationships with men(which is also a NMMNG concept,too) , and learning through their life experiences, giving insight to them to let them learn about yours. It also encourages these relationships as in a way that destroys the need for codependency in marriage.

Maybe it doesn't have all the answers about female infidelity, but it certainly gives a perspective. I am looking forward to reading to reading the second book.(Women's Infidelity II: Breaking Out of Limbo)

I also would like to discuss the book and its concepts if any person decides to read it or has read it already.


----------



## Quantmflux

Hey Shadow! Thanks for doing the heavy lifting and posting that! You have done us a service with that review  Now get your priorities straight and study for your damn boards!  In all seriousness, good luck with your studies! You are on a great path.

My issue with that book would come towards the end, I suspect, where she starts to discuss the nature of monogamy.

I feel like this is *always* the endgame in rationalization of a lack of self control. And maybe it's true. But if it's true, then there is 0 reason to get married. And when some women ask "why won't men commit?" well... The answer is "they read Michelle Langley"! :rofl:

It sounds noble to say "if you are strong enough then no one has the power to hurt you, so man up!!!!"

But here is what I do normally... If I bump into a dude that is 6'5" 300lbs of muscle accidentally, I *quickly* say "hey excuse me man... my bad" very sincerely  Thats called "avoiding pain". I think its better than working on your jaw strength to the point where maybe his right hook doesn't dislocate it! hahahahahaha

As I feared, I suspect if I read that book as a young guy, and truly took it to heart, I'd have just decided that the risk simply wasn't worth it and consigned myself to a life of masturbation. :smthumbup:

Now given how my life has gone with my SO, *maybe* that would have been better! But then I look at my daughter and realize that all of the "rough spots" (and they were *rough*) were worth it.

I also look around here at couples that managed (gasp) to stay with each other for *decades* and no one felt the need to go fvck someone else "marriage 2.0" style, and realize that not *everyone* has to revert to the 2M year old paleolithic urge that is lurking down deep in reptile brain.

I'd rather *start out* an optimist and then, if I crap out and get unlucky, become bitter and jaded 

It seems it is very much in vogue today for "marriage guides" to simply advocate an "open marriage". I think thats a total load of BS (and I've been *there* too, so I speak from experience) If that's really someone's view then I would say advocate just staying single (legally single) and emotionally guarded.


----------



## TDSC60

A little late to the party here. But I did read her first book on "Women's Infidelity". To be honest, it scared the hell out of me because it basically says that all women have the urge to become dissatisfied around years 7-15 in a relationship and there is nothing you can do about it. Some cheat some don't. 

It also says that about 78% of the married women surveyed said they would definitely cheat if they knew for a fact that their husband would never find out.


----------



## Quantmflux

TDSC60 said:


> A little late to the party here. But I did read her first book on "Women's Infidelity". To be honest, it scared the hell out of me because it basically says that all women have the urge to become dissatisfied around years 7-15 in a relationship and there is nothing you can do about it. Some cheat some don't.
> 
> It also says that about 78% of the married women surveyed said they would definitely cheat if they knew for a fact that their husband would never find out.


Aaaaah! Is there a "horrified" smiley somewhere? I need it! :rofl:

See that's what I mean. Now maybe all of that is true... But damn. If it is, I'd honestly rather just not know and hope I "get lucky" (and of course I didn't! LOL).

What I would like to hear though is, if that is true about the 7-15 year "going to bang a better guy" rule, *what* can someone do to head it off? Is it *really* nothing? Maybe it is. In my own personal situation I admit I wasn't the greatest, but I also wasn't horrible. And at least part of why I wasnt so great was directly the result of her behavior. And of course some of that was due to *my* earlier behavior. But in the end, the leap to having a blatant and destructive EA/PA was all her and there was no "opening up" or "come to jesus meeting" or "reading the riot act" or anything that lead up to it.

I get that women are complex, nuanced, multi-layered creatures. But no one can read minds and women also seem *really* good at masking what is going on. Sometimes through passive aggression, but sometimes just through a total obfuscating mask! Also, what is "right" for one woman may *not* be "right" for another.

Good example... My wife's primary "reason" for cheating was that I had become distant, emotionally and physically unavailable, and she felt unloved and unappreciated. To me, I didn't realize any of that, but in hindsight I "get it". On the flip side though, I make decent money and always have and work is usually intense for me (and listen up Shadow... because this WILL be you once you pass those boards and get through med school!  )

Now... another couple; friends of ours ironically... The wife *also* cheated (my wifes friend). Her husband DOTED on her. Literally worshipped her. But he was broke really. Underemployed and not likely to ever make big money. She cheated with a lawyer at her firm (legal secretary). Her thing was she was just "swept away" by a guy with money and "power". When she learned about out situation, she could *not* understand how my wife could do that to me. My wife could never understand how SHE did that to HER husband. "But he WORSHIPPED you!"... "But he makes GREAT money and you have it EASY!" Maybe he and I should have just switched at that point!

Ultimately, me and him were left thinking... WOW! if we could MERGE we'd be SUPERMAN. Of course as superman, maybe you're better off flying solo


----------



## TDSC60

Quantmflux said:


> Aaaaah! Is there a "horrified" smiley somewhere? I need it! :rofl:
> 
> See that's what I mean. Now maybe all of that is true... But damn. If it is, I'd honestly rather just not know and hope I "get lucky" (and of course I didn't! LOL).
> 
> What I would like to hear though is, if that is true about the 7-15 year "going to bang a better guy" rule, *what* can someone do to head it off? Is it *really* nothing? Maybe it is. In my own personal situation I admit I wasn't the greatest, but I also wasn't horrible. And at least part of why I wasnt so great was directly the result of her behavior. And of course some of that was due to *my* earlier behavior. But in the end, the leap to having a blatant and destructive EA/PA was all her and there was no "opening up" or "come to jesus meeting" or "reading the riot act" or anything that lead up to it.
> 
> I get that women are complex, nuanced, multi-layered creatures. But no one can read minds and women also seem *really* good at masking what is going on. Sometimes through passive aggression, but sometimes just through a total obfuscating mask! Also, what is "right" for one woman may *not* be "right" for another.
> 
> Good example... My wife's primary "reason" for cheating was that I had become distant, emotionally and physically unavailable, and she felt unloved and unappreciated. To me, I didn't realize any of that, but in hindsight I "get it". On the flip side though, I make decent money and always have and work is usually intense for me (and listen up Shadow... because this WILL be you once you pass those boards and get through med school!  )
> 
> Now... another couple; friends of ours ironically... The wife *also* cheated (my wifes friend). Her husband DOTED on her. Literally worshipped her. But he was broke really. Underemployed and not likely to ever make big money. She cheated with a lawyer at her firm (legal secretary). Her thing was she was just "swept away" by a guy with money and "power". When she learned about out situation, she could *not* understand how my wife could do that to me. My wife could never understand how SHE did that to HER husband. "But he WORSHIPPED you!"... "But he makes GREAT money and you have it EASY!" Maybe he and I should have just switched at that point!
> 
> Ultimately, me and him were left thinking... WOW! if we could MERGE we'd be SUPERMAN. Of course as superman, maybe you're better off flying solo


The author of the book is a woman. She explains that she had a great life, a wonderful husband, financial security, a great child - she had every woman's fantasy. But around year 8 of her marriage she began to have the nagging feeling of not being satisfied with what she had. That there was something missing. She wondered if other women felt the same way.

That is when she started surveying and interviewing women about relationships. Like I said, the conclusions that these interviews and surveys reveal scared the hell out of me.

She started writing books after years of studying and collecting data, so the points she makes can not be easily dismissed.


----------



## Quantmflux

TDSC60 said:


> The author of the book is a woman. She explains that she had a great life, a wonderful husband, financial security, a great child - she had every woman's fantasy. But around year 8 of her marriage she began to have the nagging feeling of not being satisfied with what she had. That there was something missing. She wondered if other women felt the same way.
> 
> That is when she started surveying and interviewing women about relationships. Like I said, the conclusions that these interviews and surveys reveal scared the hell out of me.
> 
> She started writing books after years of studying and collecting data, so the points she makes can not be easily dismissed.



Yes, I am somewhat familiar with her. I agree with all of that except for the last part. Im not saying it *can* be easily dismissed, but you never *really* know when something isn't a professionally peer reviewed paper, but rather is a work created for commercial gain, how "deep" the "research" really is. There is a lot of junk science and BS designed to line the pockets of the author.

That said, I'd love to hear the thoughts of TAM women on this whole topic and if Ms. Langley really is onto something, how the heck any guy has a shot at averting disaster!


VERY VERY interesting link for anyone on this thread:

http://badgerhut.wordpress.com/2011...and-womens-infidelity-on-the-tom-leykis-show/

Particularly this note in the comments:

_"I think Langley is so/so. I read her book a few years ago. While it has some insights, much of it is directed at needling men (e..g, she has a lengthy section about the importance of penis size that is clearly designed to shame men with average sized penises as being flatly unattractive to women — no doubt the case for Langley, as she is a size queen, but she over-generalizes — something which recurs throughout the book)."_

See what Im saying? Agenda Agenda Agenda. Author bias and baggage. Always very risky.


----------



## Gaia

George529 said:


> FYI the author is a woman; Michelle Langley.


I seen that. If you think the author being a woman makes a difference to me your sadly mistaken. Any so called self help book that claims all women will only be loyal until something "better" comes along is full of shyt. The reason I said them is because there are books like this written by men as well that generalizes and paints a shallow picture of men.

Now I did read shadows post and while I think it may give good insight on why infidelity may happen I realize that its just his pov and take on it. Like quant said earlier we cant really make an opinion on something like that unless we read it ourselves. Which I intend to now but I will say this. If its another just generalizes women and if it does advocate open marriage vs monogamous... Yes I still want to slap her.


There are some women who are truly loyal and monogamous even after an "I do".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

TDSC60 said:


> The author of the book is a woman. She explains that she had a great life, a wonderful husband, financial security, a great child - she had every woman's fantasy. But around year 8 of her marriage she began to have the nagging feeling of not being satisfied with what she had. That there was something missing. She wondered if other women felt the same way.
> 
> That is when she started surveying and interviewing women about relationships. Like I said, the conclusions that these interviews and surveys reveal scared the hell out of me.
> 
> She started writing books after years of studying and collecting data, so the points she makes can not be easily dismissed.


Studies and research done by this author was no doubt done by seeking to validate her view point not actually consider something other then it. Which is why research and studies dont mean jack to me. I will not let women like her speak for me nor will I let some statistic determine how my relationship turns out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

2ntnuf said:


> I'm starting to wonder. Maybe not an open marriage, but rather no marriage. There are some logical points to be made when you look at the statistics. I have never thought this way before. I was utterly convinced that marriage was the best way. It's really sad.


Marriage and relationships are hard but imo worth the effort. There may be very painful times but if both partners are willing to make the effort, they do come out stronger after rough times. Of course for some the single life may be best and thats perfectly ok too. Im not against someone doing what works for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Quantmflux

Gaia said:


> Marriage and relationships are hard but imo worth the effort. There may be very painful times but if both partners are willing to make the effort, they do come out stronger after rough times. Of course for some the single life may be best and thats perfectly ok too. Im not against someone doing what works for them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


+100

Think of it this way... It nothing else the chance of meeting a gal like Gaia makes it all worth it, IMO. 

And even when it does go bad, it isn't black and white. My wife and I have been through some insane crap, but I still trust her completely and she does me. I understand where we went wrong and I know we have grown from it. It sounds insane to someone on the outside, but it works.

Books written by jaded cynics out to make a buck paint a picture of hopelessness that is absolute.

That goes back to what I was saying that if you know you might be sensitive to that kind of rhetoric, avoid it IMO. It's like any other indoctrination into a negative ideology that fattens the coffers of the one preaching it.


----------



## EleGirl

TDSC60 said:


> A little late to the party here. But I did read her first book on "Women's Infidelity". To be honest, it scared the hell out of me because it basically says that all women have the urge to become dissatisfied around years 7-15 in a relationship and there is nothing you can do about it. Some cheat some don't.
> 
> It also says that about 78% of the married women surveyed said they would definitely cheat if they knew for a fact that their husband would never find out.


The same sort of numbers hold true for men. Also, men and women cheat a close to the same percentage in marriage these days.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

2ntnuf said:


> I'm starting to wonder. Maybe not an open marriage, but rather no marriage. There are some logical points to be made when you look at the statistics. I have never thought this way before. I was utterly convinced that marriage was the best way. It's really sad.


Actually she comes off as rather pro-marriage... But she says that most women today think it as a natural progression of their own life, thinking that they won't have to make a conscious choice into marriage, thinking that men don't want to be in marriages, so they would have to trick them into marriages(although that is severely unnecessary). She says that when you think that you think yourself as "naturally monogamous", that you won't have any idea when the inital attraction phase fades with your spouse and you have a crush on somebody, thinking that your first choice was bad, and now "Mr. Right" has come to sweep you off your feet. The whole soulmates concept. In which I agree. When a person is unaware that during their life and when in a relationship they will have crushes on other people and it's perfectly normal and it doesn't have to mean a thing, you get people who are unaware of themselves, meaning they will have poor boundaries.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

EleGirl said:


> The same sort of numbers hold true for men. Also, men and women cheat a close to the same percentage in marriage these days.


The writers of "The Monogamy Myth"(who are weirdly enough monogamous) say that about nearly %45 of men and women cheat.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Gaia said:


> Marriage and relationships are hard but imo worth the effort. There may be very painful times but if both partners are willing to make the effort, they do come out stronger after rough times. Of course for some the single life may be best and thats perfectly ok too. Im not against someone doing what works for them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, but how many women and girls around think about it like you do and put in the effort into their marriages as you do. Most think of the wedding as an accomplishment, which in turn leads to disinterest in working for what comes after that.


----------



## Gaia

True..... And sadly, I hate to admit it, I havent yet met a woman in person where I am that feels and thinks the same as I do. They are pretty much focused on the wedding like you described.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Deejo

The concepts of Langley's book were discussed in depth, here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/16221-how-about-them-apples.html

I felt the book was far, far over-priced to pay for what I already had discovered for myself.

Still, I think the fact that she wrote it is a testament to her own introspection, and is the brick to the side of the head that some men need when thinking about what lays the groundwork for infidelity.

Like I've said here, numerous times ... cheating is not the root of the problem in a marriage, it's a symptom of the problem.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Quantmflux said:


> Now... another couple; friends of ours ironically... The wife *also* cheated (my wifes friend). Her husband DOTED on her. Literally worshipped her. But he was broke really. Underemployed and not likely to ever make big money. She cheated with a lawyer at her firm (legal secretary). Her thing was she was just "swept away" by a guy with money and "power". When she learned about out situation, she could *not* understand how my wife could do that to me. My wife could never understand how SHE did that to HER husband. "But he WORSHIPPED you!"... "But he makes GREAT money and you have it EASY!" Maybe he and I should have just switched at that point!


Seems to me there are two ways to look at this:

1. Each women has very different needs. Yours to be worshippd and the neighbors to have financail security. Swapping husbands would have made them happy; or

2. They wanted it all with no cost. So if you had worshipped your wife at the price of not having the money she wanted, she would have looked elsewhere for the financial security.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Didn't see that thread, definitely going to check it out.



Deejo said:


> Like I've said here, numerous times ... cheating is not the root of the problem in a marriage, it's a symptom of the problem.


But is there a problem-free marriage? And more often than not isn't the problem not the marriage itself but the wayward's insecurities, poor boundaries, misconceptions about their sexuality(I'm a good girl, I would never cheat etc) etc etc.

I got some of the societal and individual reasons for the female "4 year itch" and female "thirty year old midlife crisis" and female infidelity. I learned a trick, non-sexual touching as a bonding approach(the whole oxytocin deal.) I learned about not making a woman have sex as a job, but as a mutual exchange. I also learned a bit about dealing with my own insecurities(infidelity is definitely not okay, but in the end it isn't like you are getting a c*ck shoved up your own ass, no damage truly done to the betrayed spouse in reality. And, for that matter, it isn't like there are no other women in the world) I also learnt that breaking shame in a woman may be a very important approach to get her talking.

But I didn't get a clear way from the book about breaking an affair.(Although I have a clear pathway in my head already-thanks to TAM- and the book sorta gave some idea of the big picture, but was it enough? No.) Also another thing I didn't get was a guide to preventing affairs and the "I'm unhappy" feeling in women. And the last thing I didn't get was, why the f*ck should I even care if a person's own problems are/would be causing them to cheat? Why would it be the potential betrayed spouse's responsibility to disabuse a potential wayward? No-one helped to disabuse me, I took responsibility of my own life and started working on myself. Why should I be the one trying to make another person take responsibility of their own actions? Does the world even work like that?

But a bit ranting aside, with nearly %45 infidelity in both genders, over %50 divorce rates and females initiating %70 of those divorces, I think every blind male and female should get their head out of their asses and start looking where we are going wrong, whether it be by reading this or another book, by listening to other people's experiences or by simple soulsearching.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Tall Average Guy said:


> Seems to me there are two ways to look at this:
> 
> 1. Each women has very different needs. Yours to be worshippd and the neighbors to have financail security. Swapping husbands would have made them happy; or
> 
> 2. They wanted it all with no cost. So if you had worshipped your wife at the price of not having the money she wanted, she would have looked elsewhere for the financial security.


I think it's the second choice unfortunately. I even started feeling bad for husbands being told not to cheat on their wives who are forcing them into a sexless marriage. It seems women cheat when their needs aren't getting met pretty easily, why am I forcing myself or other men to stay faithful?


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

2ntnuf said:


> Communication is the key in my honest opinon. It is also the first thing that goes out the door when the chemical changes start. Do you remember having the feeling like you would never die back in your twenties? That was a hormone change. I didn't care about my parents opinions nearly as much when I was going through puberty as I did years later. Something to consider?


What you said here is true but conflicting. Communication is important, when there is actually something to communicate about. Is there really something to communicate about when one side has shut their input channels completely? Or does it just make you a weak person desperate enough to be talking to a wall? When a woman says she is unhappy, does she really want to talk about the issue or is she saying that she has checked out never to return? Is she receptive or has she become a stone wall? 

I think communication is both underused/underrated and overused/overrated. Underused when it is actually vital, overused when unnecessary.

And unfortunately we don't get the distinction until it's too late. Thank god for NMMNG and Game concept for actually teaching me the true deal.


----------



## Deejo

In previous discussions we used to refer to a woman giving a man a series of hypothetical pluses or minuses when it comes to how his behavior and actions impact her level of desire and attraction towards him.

If you stay in the plus column, generally your spouse is going to maintain desire and attraction that translates into mutually fulfilling physical intimacy.

When you start trending into negative territory with minuses, you get fitness tests, resentment and loss of attraction.

At which point the hamster kicks in and she starts looking for your replacement.

This is pretty much what Langley is saying.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Deejo said:


> In previous discussions we used to refer to a woman giving a man a series of hypothetical pluses or minuses when it comes to how his behavior and actions impact her level of desire and attraction towards him.
> 
> If you stay in the plus column, generally your spouse is going to maintain desire and attraction that translates into mutually fulfilling physical intimacy.
> 
> When you start trending into negative territory with minuses, you get fitness tests, resentment and loss of attraction.
> 
> At which point the hamster kicks in and she starts looking for your replacement.
> 
> This is pretty much what Langley is saying.


I didn't quite understand the hypothethical plus/minus part. Does that mean qualities she believes you may have but in reality don't?

Edit: Read your older post. So you mean if she thinks of you as a plus or as a minus for her life. Well, that's her decision in the end, so you don't have that much of a conscious decision in it.


----------



## JCD

Haven't cruised the whole thread.

Read "Tempted Women" by Carol Botwin

It discussed the self proclaimed stories of a number of women (hundreds) who cheated. How they got there. What they did.

Of interest was some 20 odd precursors which strongly hinted at potential infidelity. Moving. Making as much as your husband. Being in two age groups.

It also had a section on how to get over adultery for the women.

The biggest problem I had was this lady bent over backwards to avoid offending any cheaters. For every anecdote where a woman said "My GOD, this RUINED MY LIFE!" she had to add some woman who said "If you can do it, give it a try. It's the hottest sex I ever had"


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

JCD said:


> Of interest was some 20 odd precursors which strongly hinted at potential infidelity. Moving. Making as much as your husband. Being in two age groups.


I actually want a woman that makes as much as me... My ass is so gonna get cheated on. Damn.


----------



## Machiavelli

JCD said:


> The biggest problem I had was this lady bent over backwards to avoid offending any cheaters. For every anecdote where a woman said "My GOD, this RUINED MY LIFE!" she had to add some woman who said *"If you can do it, give it a try. It's the hottest sex I ever had"*


Yeah, well that part was no doubt true.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Finished the second book also... All I can say is I probably will never get married. Seems to much of an effort. 

Okay maybe not, but the book paints such a dark (and unfortunately true) picture. Maybe it's best for everyone to know about this stuff one way or the other, before going into marriage. So much trouble could be avoided if we just accepted women aren't the angelic creatures or Virgin Maries they are made out to be, they are just as f*cked up as any man and then some.

Also it is said in the second book that women don't communicate their needs very directly, and when they don't get what they need, instead of fighting for their needs they let resentment build inside and let it slowly detoriorate the marriage. This is supposedly because women think of love as a feeling rather than a commitment, and they don't want to risk the relationship ending before they have no feelings towards their partner. This is pretty scary stuff and the book doesn't give any methods to dealing with this. Direct communication maybe?


----------



## Deejo

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Finished the second book also... All I can say is I probably will never get married. Seems to much of an effort.
> 
> Okay maybe not, but the book paints such a dark (and unfortunately true) picture. Maybe it's best for everyone to know about this stuff one way or the other, before going into marriage. So much trouble could be avoided if we just accepted women aren't the angelic creatures or Virgin Maries they are made out to be, they are just as f*cked up as any man and then some.
> 
> Also it is said in the second book that women don't communicate their needs very directly, and when they don't get what they need, instead of fighting for their needs they let resentment build inside and let it slowly detoriorate the marriage. This is supposedly because women think of love as a feeling rather than a commitment, and they don't want to risk the relationship ending before they have no feelings towards their partner. This is pretty scary stuff and the book doesn't give any methods to dealing with this. Direct communication maybe?


Trending seems to indicate on the whole, that men are postponing or saying no to marriage altogether.

Ironically, women are the primary pursuers of marriage ... and of divorce.

I became very engaged in this subject after I moved out in 08.

The 'methods' are what often gets discussed here. The 'methods' to maintain a healthy, respectful marriage or to recover a foundering one, are what many of our female posters have rather strong opinions about; claiming it can't work or would never work on them.

And THAT is pretty much the thing you need to understand. 

Every relationship, any relationship is almost always in a state of pull or push. At any given moment, during almost any given exchange between you and your partner, you are presented with an opportunity to foster love and attraction, or diminish it.

This is also why it's important to be aware of this stuff, and be aware of what you need in a relationship, and what you will tolerate in a relationship ... and then walk the walk.

Think of it like 2 magnets. Line them up correctly, and they pull together and stick. Flip them around and visibly they look no different, but instead of coming together, they repel one another. You need to know how to line things up, and make them stick.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Deejo said:


> The 'methods' are what often gets discussed here. The 'methods' to maintain a healthy, respectful marriage or to recover a foundering one, are what many of our female posters have rather strong opinions about; claiming it can't work or would never work on them.
> 
> And THAT is pretty much the thing you need to understand.
> 
> Every relationship, any relationship is almost always in a state of pull or push. At any given moment, during almost any given exchange between you and your partner, you are presented with an opportunity to foster love and attraction, or diminish it.
> 
> This is also why it's important to be aware of this stuff, and be aware of what you need in a relationship, and what you will tolerate in a relationship ... and then walk the walk.
> 
> Think of it like 2 magnets. Line them up correctly, and they pull together and stick. Flip them around and visibly they look no different, but instead of coming together, they repel one another. You need to know how to line things up, and make them stick.


So basically game, game, game.


----------



## Deejo

There comes a point where 'game' isn't game anymore. How you choose to behave, respond or react simply becomes part of your character.

To most easily sum up how to view, approach or experience this stuff, whether you are calling it gaming, manning up, self actualization, esteem building etc ...

Ultimately it doesn't matter what you 'think'.

It matters what you 'do'.

Whether your woman is crazy about you, or has gotten to the point where the idea of being intimate with you makes her sick to her stomach;
what YOU choose to do, or importantly, not do, is the only thing that can impact those circumstances.

The doing may be continuing to build attraction. Or the doing may be letting go of a woman that no longer loves or respects you.

Seeing it as a game fits my frame very, very well.
Doesn't matter what other people think about what you are doing, what matters is the results you get.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Something clicked with your previous post btw. It was not that long ago, but in the MMSL blog, I read one of the first posts written, it was about atrraction switches. Basically what you said. I hadn't made the connection like you did while reading Women's Infiidelity, though. Now it seems more clear and makes more sense.

And I get what you're saying in your last post, basically it's the difference with PUA game and the kind of game that is tried to be taught to new-coming posters here. Who you show youself to be vs who you are. Yes, I guess in LTRs and marriages the PUA game will be exhausting and draining to do, basically you would be having to go through a sham of a life and she would wisen up to the techniques eventually. 

"Changing who you are to who you want yourself to be= a succesful husband" part seems to be the best choice for a guy who has decided to marry. That does need breaking both "the modern feminized man" approach and "the traditional masculinity" approach, I guess.


----------



## Deejo

Initially I didn't buy it. Thought it was stupid, juvenile, and women would see right through all of it.

But, there were a number of posters whom I respected that would post about maintaining attraction, respect in the relationship, and effectively not being a needy, smothering, man-child.

Good men, lengthy, mutually happy, intimate marriages.

And they still got railed based on their input. Yet they always responded respectfully, and never apologized for their point of view.

So I dove in, and never have, and never will look back.

We can discuss, critique, argue, mock, or support these steps that are available for men looking to improve their personal foundation, which in turn can help them in conducting intimate relationships _that has positive outcomes for both partners_.

It works. I know it works because I've done it.

The focus here is not pickup artistry. It's about fostering being a better partner in a LTR, or letting go of a lousy one.


----------



## Deejo

I will also state that prior my own brush with infidelity, I used to hold the belief that women were more emotionally intelligent and in touch with who they were and what they wanted ... and rarely were the instigators of an affair.

My belief system has changed a great deal in the last few years.


----------



## ocotillo

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> .
> I decided to read "Women's Infidelity - Living In Limbo". I understand that I am just begging for triggers, mind movies and anxiety attacks. But if it's gonna help I want to read it.


The author did much better with her second (2008) attempt.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Deejo said:


> I will also state that prior my own brush with infidelity, I used to hold the belief that women were more emotionally intelligent and in touch with who they were and what they wanted ... and rarely were the instigators of an affair.
> 
> My belief system has changed a great deal in the last few years.


Nearly every man who hasn't seen the dark side of femininity believes that women are pure, innocent, and "she wouldn't do that, she's a good girl."

Society and media constantly portraits men as unfaithful, neglectful evil abusers in marriage, and they are basically shown as the reason for divorces and unhappy marriages while magazines such as Cosmo write about how divorce can be empowering for a women. Only recently the acts of women have started coming into light, but even now they are rugsweeped with the proclamation "Most women aren't like that!". I've even seen from users here that "the Walkaway Wife syndrome isn't as common as you people make it out to be."


----------



## Faithful Wife

Shadow Nirvana said: "Maybe it's best for everyone to know about this stuff one way or the other, before going into marriage."

That's my take. But the thing is, EVERYONE needs to know about the fact that ALL humans (ie: not just women) have the ability to cheat. That means also YOU, YOURSELF have the ability to cheat.

It is strange to me for anyone to try to study the infidelity habits and potentials of the opposite sex, without looking at the same data for your own sex. Why only study one side of it? There really is no difference between the sexes in this area. People are capable of infidelity. That means YOU and it also means your potential future spouse.

To get past this, yes a good understanding of how and why infidelity occurs really can help both spouses as they enter into a marriage.

To keep pointing fingers one way or the other at the other gender and "why THEY cheat" is seriously messed up because it completely ignores the ideat that this is a HUMAN condition, not just one gender.


----------



## ocotillo

Faithful Wife said:


> To keep pointing fingers one way or the other at the other gender and "why THEY cheat" is seriously messed up because it completely ignores the ideat that this is a HUMAN condition, not just one gender.


Couldn't agree more. When someone writes a book about it that basically says, "That's just the way we are -Deal with it" it's like trying not to look at a train wreck. It's too fascinating not to look at.


----------



## barbados

TDSC60 said:


> The author of the book is a woman. She explains that she had a great life, a wonderful husband, financial security, a great child - she had every woman's fantasy. But around year 8 of her marriage she began to have the nagging feeling of not being satisfied with what she had. That there was something missing. She wondered if other women felt the same way.
> 
> That is when she started surveying and interviewing women about relationships. Like I said, the conclusions that these interviews and surveys reveal scared the hell out of me.
> 
> She started writing books after years of studying and collecting data, so the points she makes can not be easily dismissed.


I have not read this book. But let me ask this question... Did the author ever mention how many women she interviewed did NOT agree with her topic VS. those that did ?? It always seems to me that when one of these types of books comes out, they are heavily biased.


----------



## BookOfJob

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> (infidelity is definitely not okay, but in the end it isn't like you are getting a c*ck shoved up your own ass, no damage truly done to the betrayed spouse in reality. And, for that matter, it isn't like there are no other women in the world)


It's easy to say that when you're on the other side of the fence. From my point of view, marriage comes with the understanding of mutual vulnerability and when it's violated, it results in physical pain (understand: vulnerable). Rearranging lives with a kid in tow is truly a damage done.



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I also learnt that breaking shame in a woman may be a very important approach to get her talking.


Can someone explain this?


----------



## Jasel

My opinion of marriage and relationships in general couldn't be lower atm so think i'll pass. And honestly I don't have the high regard for women that I used to anyway outside of my sister, mother, and grandmother. Am starting to really appreciate being single as I feel we live in a society that stresses that you HAVE to be with someone or you're doomed to a lonely existance. It gets somewhat tiring.


----------



## Deejo

I no longer seek to put the woman that I love on a pedestal. (I undoubtedly used to.)

These days I pull her up on the scaffolding I'm already standing on and share it


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Faithful Wife said:


> It is strange to me for anyone to try to study the infidelity habits and potentials of the opposite sex, without looking at the same data for your own sex. Why only study one side of it?


Well, it's not like I'm going to be cheated on by men, am I?



ocotillo said:


> Couldn't agree more. When someone writes a book about it that basically says, "That's just the way we are -Deal with it" it's like trying not to look at a train wreck. It's too fascinating not to look at.


Oh, the book definitely doesn't say that. It's name may be "Women's Infidelity" but it not only touches infidelity on both sides, but also people's looks on getting married but not working to stay married, views on sexuality etc.



BookOfJob said:


> It's easy to say that when you're on the other side of the fence. From my point of view, marriage comes with the understanding of mutual vulnerability and when it's violated, it results in physical pain (understand: vulnerable). Rearranging lives with a kid in tow is truly a damage done.
> 
> *Yes, but obviously, you cannot go about thinking to be with somebody who clearly states ,through her actions, that she doesn't be with you.
> 
> And anyways, pain on this topic is overrated. I can choose to hurt over something, or I can choose to accept it, understand why it happened by picking it apart, and ultimately move on whilst putting the whole thing in the "life experience" category.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I wasn't this nonchalant during my own sh!tstorm. Far from it. I was crying, my heart felt like it had 3 tons of weight over it, I was feeling inadequate etc. And what I went through as infidelity, you people would laugh and say "That's not infidelity, that's just two kids playing" lol.
> 
> But if it hadn't happened, I wouldn't have gone on a soulsearch(the whole No More Mr Nice Guy deal) and I wouldn't have found this place, the manosphere blogs, Chateau Heartiste, Married Man Sex Life,pickup artistry etc.
> 
> Pain is a good thing when you can use its energy as a driving force.*
> 
> Can someone explain this?
> 
> *Well, we all know that cheaters are sneaky and cowardly. They can say that it's because they don't want to hurt the BS, but they don't want to face their own fcked-up selves. Their shame about their trysts are what causes them to use lies and deceit, all the while making their infidelity much more addictive(forbidden fruit) If it's not out in the open, they can compartmentalize easier. If the goal is to reconcile, you cannot use shame as a deterrent. Understanding what they did(not taking the "she wouldn't do that" route) but not giving in(ie: filing for divorce and exposure) goes a whole better as an approach than trying to shame them into staying. *


----------



## Faithful Wife

SN, I don't know your history, sorry. If you have been cheated on, I am sorry for that, it sucks.

But my point was/is, if you really read all the data available about infidelity, you find that EVERYONE is capable of cheating, including yourself. If you are just looking for ways to make other people villains - - ie: "why women cheat" - - then you can always find the evidence of those villains out there.

But trying to understand "why PEOPLE cheat and why YOU (anyone) are also vulnerable to cheating" is much more valuable information.

So many people who "aren't capable" of cheating by their own declaration, end up cheating. Even ones who have been cheated on and clearly understand the pain they will inflict upon someone. No one thinks it can happen to them, and then it does. This - to me - is the place to put your study. Know thyself.


----------



## ocotillo

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Oh, the book definitely doesn't say that. It's name may be "Women's Infidelity" but it not only touches infidelity on both sides, but also people's looks on getting married but not working to stay married, views on sexuality etc.


Not explicitly no. But the question and answer format of 'All knowing author' answering 'Kevin the distraught husband of a straying wife' coupled with the varied excursus into social Darwinism, hormones, limerence, the four stages, etc. left me with the impression that the author (at least) feels that the ideals of monogamy and long-term fidelity border on the idealistic.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Haha yes, she was acting a bit like all-knowing, wasn't she? But what she is saying is true. If you go into marriage thinking monogamy comes naturally, you will be very hard pushed when an unexpected crush comes along(There was a topic in the General Relationship Discussion subforum about this.) If the marriage was having even slight problems at that moment, this crush will take your attention of the marriage, the fantasy of the affair comes along, and you're sucked into a tryst.(The OP of the topic had a great marriage and was in love with her husband. If she was feeling a bit bored and/or unhappy, she would have started an affair instead of posting o this site and asking for advice.)

Understanding crushes can happen at any time, problems can be solved with mutual cooperation, resentments can be overcome and feelings can be rekindled, is a huge part of marriage that I believe most people are lacking in these days.


----------



## Machiavelli

ocotillo said:


> Not explicitly no. But the question and answer format of 'All knowing author' answering 'Kevin the distraught husband of a straying wife' coupled with the varied excursus into social Darwinism, hormones, limerence, the four stages, etc. left me with the impression that the author (at least) feels that the *ideals of monogamy and long-term fidelity border on the idealistic.*


And that's why idealistic ideals are idealistic. Because they are. Even the Bible doesn't command monogamy.


----------



## Machiavelli

Faithful Wife said:


> So many people who "aren't capable" of cheating by their own declaration, end up cheating. Even ones who have been cheated on and clearly understand the pain they will inflict upon someone. No one thinks it can happen to them, and then it does. This - to me - is the place to put your study. Know thyself.


Most guys already know themselves well enough to know that they are fully capable of anything with the right provocation; i.e. this gift from above. We always rise to the occasion, then we have to decide what to do about it.

So, we know ourselves pretty well, it's the women most guys don't understand.


----------



## Goldmember357

I like science, and facts. So I am not a fan of self help books i feel they are filled with bias and riddled with absurdity. I would take what is said with a grain of salt and not base your opinions of that book. Rather id suggest you start studying human evolution, human development, read about what the latest breakthroughs are in science. Study and read up on the most prominent psychologists and neuroscientists of our day. I feel those will give you a much more fulfilling and satisfied feeling. I am at a place in my life were i feel i have an answer for just about everything, infidelity/cheating etc does not bother me like it used to i have reached a place were i view things in a very different manner. Now i would be hurt bad if i was cheated on, but i realize life does not owe anyone anything. I also feel that its not such a black and white issue.

Just because 78% of polled women say they would cheat. Does not mean that 78% of the female population in the U.S. let alone the world feels that way. Look at the demographics among many other factors.

Best of luck


----------



## Goldmember357

Faithful Wife said:


> SN, I don't know your history, sorry. If you have been cheated on, I am sorry for that, it sucks.
> 
> But my point was/is, if you really read all the data available about infidelity, you find that EVERYONE is capable of cheating, including yourself. If you are just looking for ways to make other people villains - - ie: "why women cheat" - - then you can always find the evidence of those villains out there.
> 
> But trying to understand "why PEOPLE cheat and why YOU (anyone) are also vulnerable to cheating" is much more valuable information.
> 
> So many people who "aren't capable" of cheating by their own declaration, end up cheating. Even ones who have been cheated on and clearly understand the pain they will inflict upon someone. No one thinks it can happen to them, and then it does. This - to me - is the place to put your study. Know thyself.


We are not hard wired for monogamy at all, and id argue its less in the males interest than the females. With that said peoples actions of cheating and promiscuity are not "evil" its perfectly understandable and can be explain. NOW infidelity is wrong, cheating is horrible especially if you enter a monogamous relationship and promise NOT to cheat only to break a promise.... Anyhow i feel focusing on the stats and data is just a cushion, it has its place here and there but most of all id look at the person and analyze their behavior and their development. I feel with the proper experience/learning you can properly read people. 

There are some people who have been raised a certain way and had instances in their life in which cheating is the last thing they'd ever do. Furthermore there are those who make more rational decisions than others and are never even put in those decisions because they make smarter choices than others. There are so many factors to everything its not so black and white. What i am trying to say is that anyone is capable of anything but their development is key into determining if they are prone/likely to even do such a thing. You can look at certain types of behavior and a persons history/past and how they act/talk etc and you can gauge to a certain degree the probability of them partaking in "risky behavior", e.g., infidelity,.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"With that said peoples actions of cheating and promiscuity are not "evil" its perfectly understandable and can be explain."

Who are you talking to? I never said cheating was "evil". I'm not sure why you appear to be addressing me in your post.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Machiavelli said:


> We always rise to the occasion, then we have to decide what to do about it.


Hah, I always say I won't succumb to temptation. But maybe I should just go with the flow, everybody else seems to be doing it


----------



## Machiavelli

If you weren't capable of following through on the temptation, then it's not really a temptation, is it?

The key element is what you do with the temptation. Feed it or shut it down?


----------



## ocotillo

Machiavelli said:


> And that's why idealistic ideals are idealistic. Because they are. Even the Bible doesn't command monogamy.



LOL - Ya got me! I think I meant to say, "ideas."


----------



## RandomDude

> What a sad day for our world. Has it always been this way? I suppose I am the naive one, again. I just thought the majority of married couples didn't cheat on each other?


Cheating has become rather normal and accepted nowadays, across different circles and different mates whether married or unmarried I found.


----------



## Goldmember357

Faithful Wife said:


> "With that said peoples actions of cheating and promiscuity are not "evil" its perfectly understandable and can be explain."
> 
> Who are you talking to? I never said cheating was "evil". I'm not sure why you appear to be addressing me in your post.


I was just saying that it was not exactly addressed to you. I am not accusing you of anything.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Machiavelli said:


> The key element is what you do with the temptation. Feed it or shut it down?


Prisoner's Dilemma it is, then.










If you aren't committed to your LTR and feed that temptation, you have a good time whatever the oother party does. But if you decide to commit, your happiness depends on whether or not your wife is committed, too.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

RandomDude said:


> Cheating has become rather normal and accepted nowadays, across different circles and different mates whether married or unmarried I found.


I dunno... Maybe other people's infidelity seems acceptable. If it was that accepted, we wouldn't have so many shocked BS's.

But we have to accept that this is human nature. If you go into a marriage, acknowledging that there can be infidelity on both sides, there is a better chance of not succumbing and not being blind to what your partner can do.


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: Just started reading "Women's Infidelity - Living In Limbo"*



Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I dunno... Maybe other people's infidelity seems acceptable. If it was that accepted, we wouldn't have so many shocked BS's.
> 
> But we have to accept that this is human nature. If you go into a marriage, acknowledging that there can be infidelity on both sides, there is a better chance of not succumbing and not being blind to what your partner can do.


So why buy the cow knowing someone else is going to steal themilk?


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Deejo said:


> So why buy the cow knowing someone else is going to steal themilk?


Oh , how society has changed lol 



2ntnuf said:


> What is the line between healthy and unhealthy? Is it a length of time, a feeling, an action, etc.?
> 
> Also, is it inferred that the best option is to detach from any relationship even though current? I don't see this as being possible. Are we then to conclude that the best option is to get married and discretely cheat?


This is why it's a dilemma. Mutual cooperation brings the best result for both in the original Prisoner's Dilemma and here,too. But, basically when you think about it, not cooperating, not commiting gives you(as an individual) an even better deal.

If your wife is committed, you get hot action on the side. If your wife isn't committed, then you didn't lose out anyway.

Basically in all Prisoner's Dilemma scenarios, if you choose to be a scumbag, you can take advantage of others and live a better life. But I don't believe that would be something I would want. The other choice is like giving yourself to the mercy of others. And as a recovering Nice Guy, that's not something I would want either. So I've got that wrapped in a neat little bow 



2ntnuf said:


> So you are working toward acceptance of your partner's infidelity?......and subsequently find forgiveness for the wayward?
> 
> In my opinion, at the same time, the scales will need calibrated. Do you balance them or do you add more "weight to one side"? This is critical, in my mind, to the BS's sanity. It's harmful to accept more blame than what is truly your's to bear. It's harmful to accept less blame than is truly your's to bear. Seems the most effective, least harmful answer is to ..............


Think whether or not it can be anything from you that caused a chasm in the relationship. Unfortunately, sometimes it is the affair itself that causes the break. 

And there are those that need to get some "strange" in their prime...


----------



## Deejo

Lets clarify.

Everyone is _capable_ of cheating.

Circumstance and personal conduct have a great deal to do with infidelity.

You want to have a healthy loving relationship?
A good place to start is by being a healthy loving partner.

And if your partner can't get on board with that ... then there isn't much point to the exercise.


----------



## diwali123

You can analyze the reasons until you're blue in the face. What I don't get is how do people make that moral jump from their wedding and "till death do us part" to "I'm going to do whatever I want when I want and not think about what might happen or who I might hurt."
People can go on and on about how horrible their spouse was but ultimately an affair is a temporary condition. It's not a long term solution for anything. 
If your marriage sucks and the other person won't do anything to make it better, get a divorce. 
So many people aren't even having exit affairs, they aren't looking for a way out, they're just being bat**** crazy selfish.


----------



## Deejo

diwali123 said:


> ultimately an affair is a temporary condition. It's not a long term solution for anything.


That right there is a subtle, yet powerful, piece of brilliance.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

2ntnuf said:


> Thanks, Shadow.
> 
> I'm still struggling with the answers and I know you are trying not to give away what you decided for yourself.
> 
> * No  I was just stewing on the answers. Reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" helped me a bit in seeing things more clearly.*
> 
> So far, I've got: It just doesn't seem worth getting married, unless you can.......scratch head.
> 
> Everyone cheats......scratch head......must be a very liberal definition so no one is blamed or has to take responsibility for their own actions.....
> 
> Even though we know it is hormones making our commitments weak, we blame it on the BS for being too lack-luster in the relationship.
> 
> Everyone should have sex with as many people as possible in as varied conditions as possible, cause that's what is important. LOL
> 
> *Lol, I don't think that's what's important in life. Although if someone does find that important and meaningful, he/she should do this without using deceit to ruin other people's lives by affairs.*
> 
> Sorry, I know this reads cookoo for cocoa puffs, but it's the conclusion I keep coming to after sifting through all the crap. It's a shame, too. I thought it was more complicated than this. No wonder........nevermind.
> 
> Thanks, men.
> 
> PS. anyone else want my wife? LOL take her man. she's free and easy. woohoo
> 
> *I laughed hard, very hard. Harder than was necessary. Harder than appropriate. Die hard.*
> 
> Just thinking this out loud. Not wanting this to happen. It's like a conclusion that I keep trying to avoid.


Okay, now as I'm reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" again slower, I came across a part that was interestingly on point about this. It's about being an integrated male: "He has integrity. He does what is right, not what is expedient." Infidelity is expedient. But it isn't right. Basically it is breaking a promise and using deceit and deception to satisfy an urge. Using deceptive tactics such as this do get you a long way in life and relationships and that is sad. But, now that I'm trying to live my life consciously and make conscious decisions on each step, instead of going with the flow like some people do, I can't use such tactics. So that part of the dilemma is gone.

Now, to the other part. Let's think of marriage as a business. You are the boss.

- You don't get somebody with a criminal record ,too many business hoppings or who has a less than desirable lifestyle to work for you .Basically, you have a concrete set of criteria on selection. 

-Second you need information on how to be succesful. I realize that most modern dating/marriage approach is largely false and destructive. So you have to get to the real info out there. MMSL is just one of them, but it's I think the best and highly sufficient to understanding relationships and being a "man" in them. 

-Third, you need to watch out for potential warning signs. In a business you can't just stop checking your finances and controlling your employees for a year and be surprised that you got screwed over. Even if it's not going to be such a disaster, micromanagement is a good way to better success even if your business is doing OK. Same goes for marriage. Vigilance on big alarms and recognizing the small alarms in a relationship is good stuff.

-Sometimes, life throws sh!t at you and while you are dealing with it, you lose your momentum in marriage. Your marriage was gliding high in the air like a plane(Athol Kay's Captain/First Officer theory made me think of using plane analogy), but you had to take an emergency landing. Now you have to take off again. Taking off and regaining that momentum is hard and it takes planning and not giving up.

-NMMNG is the best book I've ever read and every line of it has to be thought over and over. But this line goes perfect with what I am trying to say here.: "No matter what happens, you will handle it." Even if you use the most perfect road map, you may fail if your partner for some reason fails to cooperate. Whether it is through infidelity or other acts of disobedience, you may sometimes have to cut your losses and bail. But... no matter what happens, you will handle it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

diwali123 said:


> You can analyze the reasons until you're blue in the face. What I don't get is how do people make that moral jump from their wedding and "till death do us part" to "I'm going to do whatever I want when I want and not think about what might happen or who I might hurt."


I don't think many people make that jump. Rather, I think for many it is a series of tiny steps with little or no thought on where the next step will take them.


----------



## TeaLeaves4

Quantmflux said:


> Yes, I am somewhat familiar with her. I agree with all of that except for the last part. Im not saying it *can* be easily dismissed, but you never *really* know when something isn't a professionally peer reviewed paper, but rather is a work created for commercial gain, how "deep" the "research" really is. There is a lot of junk science and BS designed to line the pockets of the author.
> 
> That said, I'd love to hear the thoughts of TAM women on this whole topic and if Ms. Langley really is onto something, how the heck any guy has a shot at averting disaster!
> 
> 
> VERY VERY interesting link for anyone on this thread:
> 
> Michelle Langley and “Women’s Infidelity” on the Tom Leykis Show | The Badger Hut
> 
> Particularly this note in the comments:
> 
> _"I think Langley is so/so. I read her book a few years ago. While it has some insights, much of it is directed at needling men (e..g, she has a lengthy section about the importance of penis size that is clearly designed to shame men with average sized penises as being flatly unattractive to women — no doubt the case for Langley, as she is a size queen, but she over-generalizes — something which recurs throughout the book)."_
> 
> See what Im saying? Agenda Agenda Agenda. Author bias and baggage. Always very risky.


You're right. It's junk science. Not even that... Anecdotal at best
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TeaLeaves4

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> I think it's the second choice unfortunately. I even started feeling bad for husbands being told not to cheat on their wives who are forcing them into a sexless marriage. It seems women cheat when their needs aren't getting met pretty easily, why am I forcing myself or other men to stay faithful?


Women have been on the receiving end of infidelity for eons. In most cultures and times past, it was expected that men would cheat and wives were to overlook it. Now it seems more women are doing the same, but you read one biased book and you think it's only the men being victimized. There may be more women involved in infidelity now, but there's still more men than women doing it, and certainly much more historical precedent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frozen

This is a book about women's infidelity, why women cheat hence the title. The author is currently working on a study and book on why men cheat, men's infidelity.

Stop picking apart every little word looking for something that isn't there. You don't know the author well enough to claim she has a bias in her beliefs. She is quite clear on her reasoning as to why she believes many western women succumb to infidelity. Her case studies lead to some very powerful arguments.

In my opinion the most helpful and relevant conclusion she made was regarding the endemic cultural myth that marriage and a good man is a means to happiness. She isn't referring to your typical bar sl-t but to women who time and again become disillusioned with the life outcome of wrong beliefs.

In her second work she tackles head on what to do about it. She doesn't claim she found why all women cheat. But she nails went so many do.


----------



## Saki

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> The other choice is like giving yourself to the mercy of others. And as a recovering Nice Guy, that's not something I would want either. So I've got that wrapped in a neat little bow


You aren't gonna get anywhere with that attitude.

You are speaking of vulnerability and taking the pessimestic view of vulnerability = at the mercy of others.

You are letting FEAR guide you. You are afraid of being at the mercy of others.

f*ck that.

Be at the mercy of others...and still kick ass. You can handle it.

That is NMMNG boiled down to 2 sentences. Nice guys don't connect with others because they refuse to be vulnerable. Nice guys live a frustrated life because they can't connect with others.

Solve the problem, be confident that you have the strength to deal with it, see the world for what it is - so you don't choose to be at the mercy of batsh1t crazy people.

Rise above this BS and be the man you want to be.

It's simple, but not easy.


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

^Wow, definitely gave me alot to think about. I guess it's right that call myself a "recovering" Nice Guy, as obviously I have a long way to go in understanding myself and my reactions.


----------

