# Cheated on? It's not your fault. Really! It isn't!



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Perhaps you were not the perfect wife, husband, partner, fiancée? Well, nobody is perfect, after all.

But if there were problems in your relationship and your wife, husband, partner, fiancée decided to help themselves by helping themselves to emotional or physical succour from another man or woman rather than talking about the issues and problems with you, then that is on them, not on you.

If they felt they hadn't received the promotion they deserved at work would they decide to start stealing from their employer? Selling company secrets to a business rival? Of course not!

But they thought nothing of cheating on you because they felt you were not doing what they wanted you to do?

Counselling and therapy can be vital, but it's best to start these sooner rather than later.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

It is absolutely not your fault!

It was one person's decision to lie and be unfaithful. No matter what other people here say, if your spouse cheats---you dump them and never look back. I can't recall a single story of someone who was cheated on that reconciled and lasted and never had it happen again in the long run.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

thunderchad said:


> It is absolutely not your fault!
> 
> It was one person's decision to lie and be unfaithful. No matter what other people here say, if your spouse cheats---you dump them and never look back. I can't recall a single story of someone who was cheated on that reconciled and lasted and never had it happen again in the long run.


Me. We reconciled. Been together 32 years, now.

There are others on TAM, too.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

Definitely wasn't my fault


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Definitely wasn't my fault


This is so hilarious to me for some reason. 🤣


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

QuietRiot said:


> This is so hilarious to me for some reason. 🤣


Is to me also! After hearing the XW claim it


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

No argument from me...

.....................................................

Yet.

Waywards do not unanimously agree, when blame is tossed around.

Half of the crew, those cheaters are paddling their own way forward

The majority of TAM posters blame the cheater.

That still does not change how cheaters feel.

_The Cheaters Handbook 101_, lays it all out, as to cheaters, their methods, their words and their mindset.

We can pound the desk, saying that waywards are always immoral, and we can call them those well-fitting, nasty names, but we can not deny their legitimacy.

They are different from the norm, from the average person, but their numbers are growing.
And, those that are loyal are shrinking.

Or, so it seems....

...............................................................................

Selfishness is common, and common is reality, right or wrong in your view.

To deny this state of human affairs is foolish.

No group has a lock on interpersonal relations.


We can deny the cheater the high ground, but never where it is they feel at home.
...........................................................................

Pick and choose your confidants and lovers carefully.


_King Brian-_


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Me. We reconciled. Been together 32 years, now.
> 
> There are others on TAM, too.


I think it happens quite a lot. I know several couples who stayed together and still are together a few decades later.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Of the couples I know (including my own marriage to a serial cheater 100 years ago) who dealt with infidelity in their marriages, only ONE couple overcame it and are still together to this day. The other various couples (probably 8-10 couples I know or knew, including myself) have divorced.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Of the couples I know (including my own marriage to a serial cheater 100 years ago) who dealt with infidelity in their marriages, only ONE couple overcame it and are still together to this day. The other various couples (probably 8-10 couples I know or knew, including myself) have divorced.


Like me, no second chances


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## ElOtro (Apr 4, 2021)

I´ll try to reformulate this from my personal view rather than answering to what IMO makes as much sense as "Why cows have two wings instead of four."

Fault or not in fault is an attibute of individuals.
A couple is a team, a social entity, and is there where loyalty and betrayal may happen and is relevant.
Am I saying that cheating is a problem whithin the couple?
Quite the opposite.
Is when the individual "best" interests of one of them take priotity over the team´s ones.
And another one is choosed 
Same as if forever as for a night. Same as if cos of love or cos of sex. Same if physical as if flirting. 
That means, at least conceptually and IMO, that the couple is or became a fictional entity.
*If this is true, the only BS´s fault is not being the affair partner instead of herself / himself.*
If someone is not the choosen one for each one and all facets of mating, the word "love" is an empty one, no matter what feelings say and even less what staying may mean.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Is to me also! After hearing the XW claim it


Have you ever sat down and really thought about what you contributed toward the end of that relationship? Beyond I should have figured it out sooner and kicked her out?

I get what MattMatt is saying, nobody deserves to be cheated on, but if your ex-wife had instead of cheating on you sat you down and told you it's over and to get out you might think about what you could have done differently. But since she cheated, wasn't upfront and direct with you, it's suddenly a whole different thing where only one person is to blame. 

The dynamics of a relationship breakdown aren't much different, are usually a two way street, whether one partner chooses to be direct or to cheat. And if you allow yourself to dump it all on the other person because they cheated it's likely you'll end up in the same ballpark in the future.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

gaius said:


> Have you ever sat down and really thought about what you contributed toward the end of that relationship? Beyond I should have figured it out sooner and kicked her out?
> 
> I get what MattMatt is saying, nobody deserves to be cheated on, but if your ex-wife had instead of cheating on you sat you down and told you it's over and to get out you might think about what you could have done differently. But since she cheated, wasn't upfront and direct with you, it's suddenly a whole different thing where only one person is to blame.
> 
> The dynamics of a relationship breakdown aren't much different, are usually a two way street, whether one partner chooses to be direct or to cheat. And if you allow yourself to dump it all on the other person because they cheated it's likely you'll end up in the same ballpark in the future.


The issues in the marriage and the betrayal of cheating are two completely separate issues as far as I’m concerned. There is an assumption that affairs happen _because _of a bad marriage and that’s simply not true. Affairs happen in every type of marriage under the sun. It’s easy to think a person is just so unhappy they just go have an affair. But simply, a person in an otherwise wonderful marriage who has poor boundaries with other people, can easily get wrapped up in an affair too. 

So, when a person is cheated on and then gets divorced, they have to deal with the trauma and betrayal, and then also the problems in the marriage which requires examination of the faults of both parties and the responsibilities they had for a bad marriage or choosing a poor partner. Like any other person must do upon divorce. Perhaps some people become so mired in the affair itself they never process the marriage problems… but I think you’ll find most people who are able to heal fully are able to heal from both, but I don’t see how it can be done unless it’s treated as two different things. 

Furthermore, I believe the same for reconciliation. The trauma and betrayal has to be fully dealt with and confronted, repentance and remorse shown. THEN the marriage is pieced back together in a separate step.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

100% agree.

Any problems in the marriage are on both parties, but the decision to cheat is 100% on the one who cheated.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> The issues in the marriage and the betrayal of cheating are two completely separate issues as far as I’m concerned. There is an assumption that affairs happen _because _of a bad marriage and that’s simply not true. Affairs happen in every type of marriage under the sun. It’s easy to think a person is just so unhappy they just go have an affair. But simply, a person in an otherwise wonderful marriage who has poor boundaries with other people, can easily get wrapped up in an affair too.


I think that a lot of what you're saying is what people tell themselves. "Our marriage was fine and dandy until that other person came along!" Maybe it was for the person who was cheated on. And maybe the cheater doesn't want to hurt them further and tell them otherwise. Or they don't even really know why they cheated. But there's always some sort of breakdown if an affair happens. Whether it be respect, attraction or whatever, it's there. The same things that might lead to someone dumping their partner straight up.

And yes, processing the fallout from the relationship ending takes on a new, more hurtful aspect when you find out you've been lied to and betrayed on top of being basically dumped. But still, if you don't want to end up in that situation again you've got to take an honest account of what happened and what your part in it was.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

gaius said:


> I think that a lot of what you're saying is what people tell themselves. "Our marriage was fine and dandy until that other person came along!" Maybe it was for the person who was cheated on. And maybe the cheater doesn't want to hurt them further and tell them otherwise. Or they don't even really know why they cheated. But there's always some sort of breakdown if an affair happens. Whether it be respect, attraction or whatever, it's there. The same things that might lead to someone dumping their partner straight up.
> 
> And yes, processing the fallout from the relationship ending takes on a new, more hurtful aspect when you find out you've been lied to and betrayed on top of being basically dumped. But still, if you don't want to end up in that situation again you've got to take an honest account of what happened and what your part in it was.


We disagree. And that’s ok. The reason I’m even talking about this is because you hold a very common belief that I’ve come to learn through experience, too much experience, is just not true. There is absolutely people who are cheaters and betrayed in the same marriage, who freely admit their relationship was wonderful before the cheating happened. There are stories here on TAM. It’s more common than you might think. 

Personally, I know my marriage had problems. None of them so grave as to need to euthanize the marriage as my WH did. But I am well aware of my own shortcomings in my marriage, but they had nothing to do with the infidelity.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> Personally, I know my marriage had problems. None of them so grave as to need to euthanize the marriage as my WH did. But I am well aware of my own shortcomings in my marriage, but they had nothing to do with the infidelity.


A lot of people are full of crap Quiet. What words come out of their mouth have little real meaning. 

In your opinion your marriage had no problems grave enough to euthanize it. But your husband made a conscious choice to cheat. Knowing that could possibly be the outcome I'm assuming? Is that how we treat things we respect and value in life? Risk them willy nilly? Of course not. So what happened? When did that genuine respect and value for your marriage go away?

He can blather on to you and say whatever he wants, flap his gums till they start bleeding, but his actions speak to what I'm talking about. Some kind of breakdown.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

gaius said:


> A lot of people are full of crap Quiet. What words come out of their mouth have little real meaning.
> 
> In your opinion your marriage had no problems grave enough to euthanize it. But your husband made a conscious choice to cheat. Knowing that could possibly be the outcome I'm assuming? Is that how we treat things we respect and value in life? Risk them willy nilly? Of course not. So what happened? When did that genuine respect and value for your marriage go away?
> 
> He can blather on to you and say whatever he wants, flap his gums till they start bleeding, but his actions speak to what I'm talking about. Some kind of breakdown.


Well, I’m not sure what two people in the same marriage have to gain by lying about the state of their marriage when an affair has already happened, but as you say.

Have you been in a situation of infidelity sir?

I could explain to you my marriage, and the way the affair came about, and why - in painstaking detail. But I’d have better luck explaining the way the rain smells on creosote to a person whose never smelled it. You don’t know unless you’ve been forged in the fire of infidelity and examined every detail in painstaking precision. You do not have to explain to me how to examine my marriage, my WH or my part in the relationship, I assure you I’ve spent 2 years doing little more. 

The affair is unrelated to the issues in my marriage. He chose to have an affair. That choice was an inside job.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

Sometimes I wonder, if you properly vetted your spouse through something other than rose-colored glasses, might you have found some reason for concern?

I don’t think “character” changes all that much, from late high-school on, short of an epiphany of some sort. And very few have true epiphanies.

The girl or guy who cheats on their “steady” and doesn’t feel badly about it. Do you just think they’re not grown up and it’s excusable? How many married someone knowing their partner was cheating on someone else at the time they were going out or sneaking around. Did that work out well, or was it a barometer of things to come?

So no, it’s not your fault you were stepped out on, but maybe there’s a “fog of love” early in a relationship that’s similar to the “affair fog” that clouds our good judgment. Or maybe it’s just hubris. We think we can change a horse into a zebra.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

gaius said:


> Have you ever sat down and really thought about what you contributed toward the end of that relationship? Beyond I should have figured it out sooner and kicked her out?
> 
> I get what MattMatt is saying, nobody deserves to be cheated on, but if your ex-wife had instead of cheating on you sat you down and told you it's over and to get out you might think about what you could have done differently. But since she cheated, wasn't upfront and direct with you, it's suddenly a whole different thing where only one person is to blame.
> 
> The dynamics of a relationship breakdown aren't much different, are usually a two way street, whether one partner chooses to be direct or to cheat. And if you allow yourself to dump it all on the other person because they cheated it's likely you'll end up in the same ballpark in the future.


Even though I do agree with most of what you said, in the case of my marriage and XW it really wasn't my fault because what the problem ended up being I could not have fixed.....because I cannot grow a vagina. 🤫
When I said my XW blamed me what I meant was she says that it's my fault for not letting her "explore" her curiosities outside the marriage.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

The cheater has to find a reason for their stepping out, it cannot be their own fault alone because that would create inner conflict, ruin their affair high with guilty feelings, etc.....so that doesn't mix well. 
So their default mindset is they find whatever excuse necessary to blame their spouse, marriage that led them to cheat.... I believe is called cognitive dissonance. 

Sent from my SHT-W09 using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

gaius said:


> A lot of people are full of crap Quiet. What words come out of their mouth have little real meaning.
> 
> In your opinion your marriage had no problems grave enough to euthanize it. But your husband made a conscious choice to cheat. Knowing that could possibly be the outcome I'm assuming? Is that how we treat things we respect and value in life? Risk them willy nilly? Of course not. So what happened? When did that genuine respect and value for your marriage go away?
> 
> He can blather on to you and say whatever he wants, flap his gums till they start bleeding, but his actions speak to what I'm talking about. Some kind of breakdown.


I agree with you somewhat, but from what I've seen, some people are just CRAPPY people. And they are great at hiding it.

And some people don't want to commit, but they don't want to lose their relationship because of the comfort and perks it provides, so they actively thwart their partner knowing something is wrong.

And there are TONS of people for whom risking things (even their very lives!) "willy nilly" are thrilling and exciting, and actively pursued by them for that reason.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Generally speaking, men and women cheat for very different reasons. Women generally cheat when they see a better option. Men will cheat just because they want new...


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

MattMatt said:


> Me. We reconciled. Been together 32 years, now.
> 
> There are others on TAM, too.


Ditto.
Together 38 years.
15 years post D-Day. It was a very difficult recovery, but well worth it in both our opinions.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

Numb26 said:


> Even though I do agree with most of what you said, in the case of my marriage and XW it really wasn't my fault because what the problem ended up being I could not have fixed.....because I cannot grow a vagina. 🤫
> When I said my XW blamed me what I meant was she says that it's my fault for not letting her "explore" her curiosities outside the marriage.


Well she certainly shouldn't have cheated on you, but from what I read in your thread you two had an active sex life for 15 years, right up until she started up with this woman. And then she wanted to get back together with you afterward. Neither of which usually apply if a gay/lesbian person is coming out. 

If it was one particular woman she was looking to experiment with all along maybe she's bi and something in that woman just caught her interest? So what was it? What was the dynamic between them that inspired her to flush her marriage down the toilet? Was it really just vagina or was something else going on?

It's a hard path to follow, taking a hard look at everything and acknowledging there might have been things you could have done better, but doing that every time I got hit in the head with a bat by a woman (figuratively) is probably the main reason I've never been hit in the same place twice.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

QuietRiot said:


> Well, I’m not sure what two people in the same marriage have to gain by lying about the state of their marriage when an affair has already happened, but as you say.
> 
> Have you been in a situation of infidelity sir?
> 
> ...


I've made plenty of mistakes. Luckily, picking a cheater or allowing a relationship to get to that point hasn't been one of them.

I'm not going to argue street cred with you Quiet. If you only want to have a discussion with people who have been cheated on be my guest. But pretty much all the ones I know who have successfully reconciled did so by working hard together to fix the problems in the marriage that led to the cheating. I don't know anyone who's benefited from not acknowledging that.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I agree with you somewhat, but from what I've seen, some people are just CRAPPY people. And they are great at hiding it.
> 
> And some people don't want to commit, but they don't want to lose their relationship because of the comfort and perks it provides, so they actively thwart their partner knowing something is wrong.
> 
> And there are TONS of people for whom risking things (even their very lives!) "willy nilly" are thrilling and exciting, and actively pursued by them for that reason.


Sure. But then you can at least learn "man my pickers off, I picked a turd. Why did I do that?" "Why did I pick a degenerate gambler that gets off more on risking my marriage than on me?" 

There's not one situation out there where you can't so some self reflection and learn something about what you can do better.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

gaius said:


> I've made plenty of mistakes. Luckily, picking a cheater or allowing a relationship to get to that point hasn't been one of them.
> 
> I'm not going to argue street cred with you Quiet. If you only want to have a discussion with people who have been cheated on be my guest. But pretty much all the ones I know who have successfully reconciled did so by working hard together to fix the problems in the marriage that led to the cheating. I don't know anyone who's benefited from not acknowledging that.


Ok boss.


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## Davit Bek (Sep 9, 2021)

gaius said:


> I've made plenty of mistakes. Luckily, *picking a cheater* or allowing a relationship to get to that point hasn't been one of them.
> 
> I'm not going to argue street cred with you Quiet. If you only want to have a discussion with people who have been cheated on be my guest. But pretty much all the ones I know who have successfully reconciled did so by working hard together to fix the problems in the marriage that led to the cheating. I don't know anyone who's benefited from not acknowledging that.


Cheating as a response to issues in the marriage is a problem. No one denies that the marriage had issues that people should work to fix it together. If one person is not willing to work on it after multiple attempts by the other, then they should leave. Leaving amicably is specially beneficial to children. 

Cheating is a conscious series of choices. Sometimes the marriage is generally going ok by most couples standards, but one person has issues that makes them prone to cheating, like seeking validation from men or attention seeking behaviors. 

I would assume the mistakes that lead to cheating with an unhealthy partner, would later on lead to breakup with a healthy one. Cheating is rooted in deception, and there is no room for deception in a healthy relationship.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

This is only based on what I have observed here at TAM, but many (note, I say many, not all) cheaters were subjected to sexual abuse as a child. Often by people they should have been able to trust.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

gaius said:


> Well she certainly shouldn't have cheated on you, but from what I read in your thread you two had an active sex life for 15 years, right up until she started up with this woman. And then she wanted to get back together with you afterward. Neither of which usually apply if a gay/lesbian person is coming out.
> 
> If it was one particular woman she was looking to experiment with all along maybe she's bi and something in that woman just caught her interest? So what was it? What was the dynamic between them that inspired her to flush her marriage down the toilet? Was it really just vagina or was something else going on?
> 
> It's a hard path to follow, taking a hard look at everything and acknowledging there might have been things you could have done better, but doing that every time I got hit in the head with a bat by a woman (figuratively) is probably the main reason I've never been hit in the same place twice.


She came out as bi, don't know if that matters


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Numb26 said:


> She came out as bi, don't know if that matters


I know someone who is bi. But she doesn't cheat on her husband.

The bi is not the problem. It's the cheating mindset that is the problem, I think?


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

MattMatt said:


> I know someone who is bi. But she doesn't cheat on her husband.
> 
> The bi is not the problem. It's the cheating mindset that is the problem, I think?


I agree


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Perhaps you were not the perfect wife, husband, partner, fiancée? Well, nobody is perfect, after all.
> 
> But if there were problems in your relationship and your wife, husband, partner, fiancée decided to help themselves by helping themselves to emotional or physical succour from another man or woman rather than talking about the issues and problems with you, then that is on them, not on you.
> 
> ...


This was the most valuable affirmation I was given when I came to TAM after DD. 

By then, I was so mired in despair, I took on all the responsibility of it. It took a long time to clear my head and accept that I'm not perfect no matter how much I try to do the right thing, so I can't take on the blame for the affair because I was not the perfect wife. 

We're always our own harshest critics and it's so easy to become overwhelmed by things beyond our control. Other people's actions are never within our control. Those of you who say pick better, you must live a perfectly predictable, perfect life or the one doing the sh1t.


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## Numb26 (Sep 11, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> This was the most valuable affirmation I was given when I came to TAM after DD.
> 
> By then, I was so mired in despair, I took on all the responsibility of it. It took a long time to clear my head and accept that I'm not perfect no matter how much I try to do the right thing, so I can't take on the blame for the affair because I was not the perfect wife.
> 
> We're always our own harshest critics and it's so easy to become overwhelmed by things beyond our control. Other people's actions are never within our control. Those of you who say pick better, you must live a perfectly predictable, perfect life or the one doing the sh1t.


See, I never took blame because I wasn't too blame. My despair came from the WHY it happened.


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## A18S37K14H18 (Dec 14, 2021)

MattMatt said:


> Counselling and therapy can be vital, but it's best to start these sooner rather than later.


Hear hear!

So darn many wait far too long to go to counseling... and then they find out it's too late.

Some counselors flat out tell folks they should have come years before.

I mean, when folks become sick, most go to the doctor, to the ER, to the hospital rather than waiting until they are minutes from death before seeking help.

Yet so many wait until their marriage is basically dead before seeking help.

I get it, not all counselors are good, but that's true of any and every profession as there are good and bad teachers, good and bad cops and on and on.

Yet, many say they tried counseling and the counselor was terrible so they haven't gone again.

I guess when those people eat a bad meal they just quit eating altogether then since their last meal was terrible it means they can't eat anymore.

People make too many excuses. If a counselor is bad, find another.

Additionally, counseling takes work, effort etc. It's not hard when one has to take a good long hard look at themselves. One needs to be honest and vulnerable in counseling and they need to put in the work, do the reading, the exercises etc.

If one goes to the doctor and they are feeling like crap and several things really hurt and the doc asks them how they are feeling and they say "Great, just great doc!" then the doc isn't going to be able to help them yet this is what many do when they go to counseling. They aren't honest, they don't say what needs to be said to the counselor.

Counseling CAN work. One may need to find another counselor and one needs to put in the effort.

One last tidbit while I'm on my little rant.

Go to counseling even when things are going great.

I mean, people take classes to learn about things they want, another language, how to program computers. They practice things they want to do, like playing video games or buying new equipment and gear for hobbies they like to partake in.

Folks need to spend time, effort and money on becoming a better person, a better partner etc. No, it doesn't need to be done all the time but there is nothing wrong with self-improvement. Doing so will provide them with dividends for a long time, they'll be much happier etc.

People spend a lot of time and money on things, hobbies and such but not on themselves. Folks need to spend a fraction of that time on bettering themselves.

No, I'm not holier than thou. I didn't do this when I was younger (I WISH I had though). I got on this train in my mid to late 30's though and I will ride this train until I die going forward.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

gaius said:


> Sure. But then you can at least learn "man my pickers off, I picked a turd. Why did I do that?" "Why did I pick a degenerate gambler that gets off more on risking my marriage than on me?"
> 
> There's not one situation out there where you can't so some self reflection and learn something about what you can do better.


I agree again, mostly. 

However, there is a big difference between recognizing that your picker is off and believing that you turned a faithful spouse into a cheater...I just DO NOT believe the second thing happens very often. 
It STILL takes a coward to sneak around and cheat, even if it's justified!

Now I will specify that by saying I don't believe wanting to be with another person when you are unhappily married is actually "cheating"....in that instance, I don't think there is much wrong with it as long as they LEAVE before being sexual with the new person. But that's such a blurry boundary...I can't really make a concrete statement about it either way.

Also, there is a difference between picking a turd with red flags waving, and having someone deceive you and pretend to be someone he is not, which is what happened to me. When I look back over why I fell in love with my EX and decided to commit to him, he presented a very good view of himself that was compatible with me in many ways.

The only thing I can think of to do differently is to be more suspicious and cynical with a new guy, and I don't think I WANT to be that way in my personal relationships. I know I should be more watchful for red flags and not ignore them, but I still want to keep my heart open and generous to potential partners and trust their motives just like I hope they trust mine!


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

gaius said:


> Have you ever sat down and really thought about what you contributed toward the end of that relationship? Beyond I should have figured it out sooner and kicked her out?
> 
> I get what MattMatt is saying, nobody deserves to be cheated on, but if your ex-wife had instead of cheating on you sat you down and told you it's over and to get out you might think about what you could have done differently. But since she cheated, wasn't upfront and direct with you, it's suddenly a whole different thing where only one person is to blame.
> 
> The dynamics of a relationship breakdown aren't much different, are usually a two way street, whether one partner chooses to be direct or to cheat. And if you allow yourself to dump it all on the other person because they cheated it's likely you'll end up in the same ballpark in the future.


Not necessarily.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> Perhaps you were not the perfect wife, husband, partner, fiancée? Well, nobody is perfect, after all.
> 
> But if there were problems in your relationship and your wife, husband, partner, fiancée decided to help themselves by helping themselves to emotional or physical succour from another man or woman rather than talking about the issues and problems with you, then that is on them, not on you.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. It's amazing how long you can know someone without knowing what they may do under certain circumstances. Certainly there is a gem of wisdom that states that you never really know someone until you've been with them when they're not getting their way. Truer words were never spoken. 

You can't be perfect enough to erase any weakness in someone's character. You can't control what someone else will do. It hurts me on this forum when I see so many people bending over backwards to try to be perfect in a way they're not even comfortable with to try to change the traits of their mate. All that's doing is enabling their behavior in the end. 

Be true to yourself. Keep enough Independence that if the worst happens, you know how to move on and survive.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

gaius said:


> But there's always some sort of breakdown if an affair happens. Whether it be respect, attraction or whatever, it's there. The same things that might lead to someone dumping their partner straight up.





gaius said:


> The dynamics of a relationship breakdown aren't much different, are usually a two way street, whether one partner chooses to be direct or to cheat. And if you allow yourself to dump it all on the other person because they cheated it's likely you'll end up in the same ballpark in the future.


I _think_ what you're referring to is the tendency to view the betrayed spouse as a saint (much like we do to a deceased person...all of the sudden they've lived a life where they apparently did no wrong), allowing them to stew in a self-righteous bitterness. I can see the danger in that. I think we do it because they are the victims. Infidelity is a core wound to a marriage, so it tends to kill those marriages it is inflicted on and the sense of security of the person blindsided by it. Even is there were other serious issues. Even _if_ the betrayed spouse treated them absolutely horribly.

The decision to cheat comes down to a sense of entitlement on the wayward spouses part, though. All different types of infidelity boil down to the wayward internally granting themselves permission. Often there is a gradual break down of moral compass and/or emotional health...something internal broken in ways that only he or she can fix. Ways they are not always aware of or are in denial of. There are even waywards who, if you had asked them 20 or 10 or even 2 years before they cheated if they were capable of cheating, would have been genuinely shocked when they looked into your crystal ball. Hindsight is sometimes deceptive in that it can give us the illusion of having more control than we actually did or do.

Sometimes wayward spouses develop sex addictions, something that has nothing to do with their spouse. Sometimes they're unhappy with where they are in their job and feel bad about themselves, and they turn to a third party to try and feel validated (because it's more of an ego boost than a spouse). Sometimes people work hard, become successful, and start to feel they've earned the right for "more." Become warped. They may not pull away sexually at all, or they may blame a lack of sex on something that seems plausible.

All marriages have issues. Some have a lot, some have a little, lots are in between...and most people couldn't really articulate what's at the core of a lot of those issues, because they don't understand it themselves. Should we all constantly look for evidence that our spouse is about to cheat? You're assuming that most people are incredibly mature and healthy and able to spot the signs that something is wrong, something that a wayward spouse is often desperately trying to hide. You're also assuming that wayward spouses often suddenly become really honest once the infidelity is revealed; in reality, most of them trickle-truth.

Yes, it's important to try and get a clear picture of what really happened in a broken marriage (I recently urged a male friend of mine who divorced to do that, to not give in to the temptation to rewrite history) and not to wear "victim" as your identity for the rest of your life. But I think there is a tendency to look for junctures where we think victims of any tragedy missed signs, because it makes us feel that we have more control over our circumstances than we really have. That it couldn't happen to us. To say you can "affair proof" your marriage by analyzing your faults in past relationships is unfortunately, I believe, naive. Sure, you can grow. You can pick healthy behaviors and hopefully attract healthy people. You can minimize risk and take more calculated ones. But at the end of the day, choosing to love another human being who has free will IS a risk.

As far as @QuietRiot, I know enough about her circumstances to know that she didn't break her husband and couldn't have fixed him. Or prevented the choice he made to blow his marriage to smithereens. Some people (including waywards) simply have to learn things the hard way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Of the couples I know (including my own marriage to a serial cheater 100 years ago) who dealt with infidelity in their marriages, only ONE couple overcame it and are still together to this day. The other various couples (probably 8-10 couples I know or knew, including myself) have divorced.


I can think of 5 couples where I know one cheated who stayed together. Most of them now married 30-40 years. I admire them, it can't have been easy.


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## LATERILUS79 (Apr 1, 2021)

gaius said:


> Have you ever sat down and really thought about what you contributed toward the end of that relationship? Beyond I should have figured it out sooner and kicked her out?
> 
> I get what MattMatt is saying, nobody deserves to be cheated on, but if your ex-wife had instead of cheating on you sat you down and told you it's over and to get out you might think about what you could have done differently. But since she cheated, wasn't upfront and direct with you, it's suddenly a whole different thing where only one person is to blame.
> 
> The dynamics of a relationship breakdown aren't much different, are usually a two way street, whether one partner chooses to be direct or to cheat. And if you allow yourself to dump it all on the other person because they cheated it's likely you'll end up in the same ballpark in the future.


Dude.

I think some of your issue here is that you are putting cheating on the same level as other marital issues. It’s not. The only way I could see that is in extreme cases like physical abuse or something. Some crazy situation where the person cheating has no way out at all.

in the cases I see here on TAM, nothing compares.

the ONLY waywards I have even a slight amount of sympathy for are those that were in dead bedrooms - and that is more of a bias for me because I was shoved into that prison as well. Even then, cheating will trump the dead bedroom.

regardless, let’s go down that road.

I never cheated. I thought about it though. My wife knew what I wanted. I said it out loud to her many times. Either she didn’t care or thought it wasn’t nearly as big of a deal as it truly was. As far as she was concerned, she was in a happy marriage. She enjoyed her life. Things were good as far as she was concerned. Sure, every marriage isn’t perfect. She had to deal with a husband that asked for sex on a daily basis. No big deal to her, right? She just needed to say “no thank you” and go right back to her nice life having no idea she was slowly killing me inside. I mean, what does she care. Things are good, right?

in the same realm of what QR is saying, it is impossible to explain the feeling of being utterly destroyed by someone else. I put cheating as #1 on the list of the worst thing someone could do to someone else. I have no problems putting dead bedroom as #2.

I knew how terrible I felt to be rejected by my wife for years. I could have cheated and destroyed her in return. In your words, you make it sound like I would have been justified. I was in a dead bedroom. If I cheated, well then my wife got the consequence she created, right? She would have been the cause, right?

No. She wouldn’t have.

if I were to cheat, it would have been a decision I made alone. The things that stopped me are two-fold: first, I wouldn’t be able to look myself in the mirror if I were to destroy another human being in that way. Secondly, I knew how much I was hurting on a daily basis. I couldn’t possibly put my wife through that much hurt and more. I expect adults to be able to come to a rational decision making process. All adults. A simple “treat others the way you want to be treated” mantra will suffice.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Perhaps you were not the perfect wife, husband, partner, fiancée? Well, nobody is perfect, after all.
> 
> But if there were problems in your relationship and your wife, husband, partner, fiancée decided to help themselves by helping themselves to emotional or physical succour from another man or woman rather than talking about the issues and problems with you, then that is on them, not on you.
> 
> ...


I think the bolded is more true than you may think MattMatt... I believe when people feel owed in a workplace they begin to care less in the quality or effort of the work, this is stealing nonetheless.

When people feel owed, balance is lost and it is hard to see enough truth clearly and if you cannot see truth clearly, chances are it will not be addressed in the most healthy way.

We want complete commitment in a marriage, yet our "do no harm" clause in that commitment can be too often overshadowed in feeling owed.

If one cannot honor, then let them go.

An honor that is bidirectionally employed without fear as such is hard for many though, often clinging to things we have already lost.

But that is the power of losing something, it's truth is it always has the possibility of being found again albeit in a different form as there is always truth that where relationships are never singular, poor choices most often are.

Such is stepping away from one's marriage and doing harm.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

LATERILUS79 said:


> Dude.
> 
> I think some of your issue here is that you are putting cheating on the same level as other marital issues. It’s not. The only way I could see that is in extreme cases like physical abuse or something. Some crazy situation where the person cheating has no way out at all.


The issue here seems to be that a lot of people are focused on blame, levels, and acronyms. 

Whether you've been cheated on or your partner decided to dump you outright and straight up, you share in the experience of having the choice to either control what you can, yourself and your actions, to learn everything you can from experience, or to simply say I'm right, they're wrong and to sit on it. 

I haven't met anyone yet who chose the later and ended up happy in life. So I wish all those trying to be the first the best. Like the first black female judge Biden is trying to appoint, good luck on your attempt to breakdown barriers.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> Now I will specify that by saying I don't believe wanting to be with another person when you are unhappily married is actually "cheating"....in that instance, I don't think there is much wrong with it as long as they LEAVE before being sexual with the new person. But that's such a blurry boundary...I can't really make a concrete statement about it either way.
> 
> Also, there is a difference between picking a turd with red flags waving, and having someone deceive you and pretend to be someone he is not, which is what happened to me. When I look back over why I fell in love with my EX and decided to commit to him, he presented a very good view of himself that was compatible with me in many ways.
> 
> The only thing I can think of to do differently is to be more suspicious and cynical with a new guy, and I don't think I WANT to be that way in my personal relationships. I know I should be more watchful for red flags and not ignore them, but I still want to keep my heart open and generous to potential partners and trust their motives just like I hope they trust mine!


I'm newer here Lisa, I looked and couldn't find a thread dealing with your particular current situation, so I can't really comment either way on it. But I don't think being skeptical and making a partner work a little harder to prove himself to you is a bad thing. Especially when you're a woman. Most quality guys want to have to work a little. It would have been easier to climb Mt. Everest than to court my wife and I value her more because of it.

Anyway, I'm not trying to drag this thread completely off topic. No, it's nobodies fault of you get cheated on. But it's not helpful to get stuck in unhealthy patterns either.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

gaius said:


> The issue here seems to be that a lot of people are focused on blame, levels, and acronyms.
> 
> Whether you've been cheated on or your partner decided to dump you outright and straight up, you share in the experience of having the choice to either control what you can, yourself and your actions, to learn everything you can from experience, or to simply say I'm right, they're wrong and to sit on it.
> 
> I haven't met anyone yet who chose the later and ended up happy in life. So I wish all those trying to be the first the best. Like the first black female judge Biden is trying to appoint, good luck on your attempt to breakdown barriers.


You make no sense. Of course there is someone to blame for the cheating; the cheater! What that has to do with politics or a Supreme Court nomination… well nothing. That’s just weird to even bring up as though it applies to affairs. 

Nobody here is talking about putting the blame for our entire lives on the person that cheated, what the OP is saying is that it is not our fault for getting cheated on. That’s it. Of course we have to take stock of the marriage issues and what went wrong. But our spouse trading sex juices with another human was not our doing! (If I was that powerful there’d be quite a few people getting penetrated by unsavory characters right now.) 

Why would OP say this? Because too many betrayed spouses blame themselves for the affair. They take 100% responsibility for their spouse going out and screwing another person. Then they wrongly believe if they change their behavior, nice their spouse back, compete with the AP, and play the pick me dance… they have the ability to fix it. You do not understand this dynamic…. Or do you... I have my suspicions. 

Not sure why I continue to waste words on the deaf. I will stop now.


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## JWakk (Sep 14, 2020)

gaius said:


> I think that a lot of what you're saying is what people tell themselves. "Our marriage was fine and dandy until that other person came along!" Maybe it was for the person who was cheated on. And maybe the cheater doesn't want to hurt them further and tell them otherwise. Or they don't even really know why they cheated. But there's always some sort of breakdown if an affair happens. Whether it be respect, attraction or whatever, it's there. The same things that might lead to someone dumping their partner straight up.
> 
> And yes, processing the fallout from the relationship ending takes on a new, more hurtful aspect when you find out you've been lied to and betrayed on top of being basically dumped. But still, if you don't want to end up in that situation again you've got to take an honest account of what happened and what your part in it was.


I can say this from a lot of study and quite a lot of experience, Lack of communication between partners cause problems because they don't open up with each other about their feelings. Women seem to be worse at this because they think a man who is working his ass off to keep the family afloat should know automatically what is wrong.
On the other front I have read and studied about how many spouses mostly women who have affairs even though they swear they have the most perfect husband yet still they will cheat when the are given the opportunity.
One other thing is cheating is a fifty fifty thing unless men cheat with gays and not women because it's a woman usually married cheating with them. So anyone saying 60% of men cheat 54% of women need to get there figures correct. Ok maybe in marriages that may work but because some married women will cheat with single guys so in my opinion women cheat more when married.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

gaius said:


> I'm newer here Lisa, I looked and couldn't find a thread dealing with your particular current situation, so I can't really comment either way on it. But I don't think being skeptical and making a partner work a little harder to prove himself to you is a bad thing. Especially when you're a woman. Most quality guys want to have to work a little. It would have been easier to climb Mt. Everest than to court my wife and I value her more because of it.
> 
> Anyway, I'm not trying to drag this thread completely off topic. No, it's nobodies fault of you get cheated on. But it's not helpful to get stuck in unhealthy patterns either.


I never made my own thread or posted my whole story on here, mostly just bits and pieces to try to help other people or show that I understood something. I suspect my EX cheated on me, but I'll never know for sure...I didn't try to find out, because his other actions were betrayals and deal-breakers for me, so I didn't care.
Also, I am certain he WOULD have cheated if he had the opportunity, and that's all that matters to me personally.

I've seen TONS of cheating in my family, and every possible angle that I can imagine (did you see my thread about my sister?). What I've seen is that even in the instances where someone had a very good reason to feel no sense of loyalty or connection to their partner, cheating was STILL a sign that they had poor character within themselves. There were other things they could have and SHOULD have done to either attempt to save the relationship or leave the relationship, instead of expending all that energy on arranging to have sex with someone else.

And by cheating, they debased their poor character even more, namely by DECEIVING...but also addiction to self-gratification, selfishness, victimhood, lack of impulse control, delusional thinking, etc.

When I realized my needs were never going to be met by a partner who didn't love or care for me, I didn't expend energy on playing around behind his back -- I used all that energy to stand up to him and end our relationship so I could move forward and find a partner who WILL love and care for me.

I understand what you are saying, and like I've said, I do agree with you in some way. But I would say more that the relationship changed and ended because of both partners, while the cheating was the absolute worst way to deal with that by one of them. And it says more bad things about the cheater than the other person who was also most likely unhappy too.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> But I would say more that the relationship changed and ended because of both partners, while the cheating was the absolute worst way to deal with that by one of them. And it says more bad things about the cheater than the other person who was also most likely unhappy too.


The absolute worst way to deal with the end of a relationship, cheating. (Assuming no crime is involved) Who could argue with this, I certainly wouldn't. If only we lived in an utopian world where every person has a level of maturity and self awareness to end every relationship idyllically.
There are so many 'reasons' for cheating; from the sociopath serial cheater to the monkey-brancher to the drunken one night stand. It's difficult to put cheaters in a one size fits all box. Though I loathe dishonesty; I know people who have cheated and are of better character than many. Some who are of better character than their cheated on spouse.

It is never any person's responsibility whom their partner chooses to have sex with unless there is consent. So no...being cheated on is not 'your' fault. 
A lack of communication and subsequent intimacy and trust is the usual culprit.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

harperlee said:


> The absolute worst way to deal with the end of a relationship, cheating. (Assuming no crime is involved) Who could argue with this, I certainly wouldn't. If only we lived in an utopian world where every person has a level of maturity and self awareness to end every relationship idyllically.
> There are so many 'reasons' for cheating; from the sociopath serial cheater to the monkey-brancher to the drunken one night stand. It's difficult to put cheaters in a one size fits all box. Though I loathe dishonesty; I know people who have cheated and are of better character than many. Some who are of better character than their cheated on spouse.
> 
> It is never any person's responsibility whom their partner chooses to have sex with unless there is consent. So no...being cheated on is not 'your' fault.
> A lack of communication and subsequent intimacy and trust is the usual culprit.


Or lack of ability of the offending spouse to just say no to sleeping around. 

Saying lack of communication and subsequent intimacy and trust is the usual culprit smacks of placing blame squarely on the one that was cheated on.


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## harperlee (May 1, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Saying lack of communication and subsequent intimacy and trust is the usual culprit smacks of placing blame squarely on the one that was cheated on.


No, it isn't.


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