# Unique Situation



## redstapler (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm a 33 year old man in a relationship with a 34 year old woman for the past 2-1/2 years.

Here's the background: 

She's been divorced for about 8 years due to her ex lying and placing them into bankruptcy (cops came to take him away for fraud back then) and they had a daughter together who wasn't even a year old at that time. She hates the man to the point that she wouldn't shed a tear if he died tomorrow.

I'm a widower of 3-1/2 years. My late wife passed away giving birth to our daughter and while it was the most difficult time in my life, I had an incredible amount of help and guidance (both with raising my baby girl and with the grief) and along with some very helpful counselling, decided that after 10 months, I would start looking to date again.

I met my partner and we moved very quickly. We ended up moving in together and formed two single parent families into one. We also have a one year old son together, which makes for quite the dynamic (in terms of bloodline).

Anyways, I truly believed that that this relationship would be a very strong one. She was easy going, seemed independant but willing to give too, and is sexy at the same time. My family was very supportive when they met her and got to know her.

However, things have gone sour over the past two years. She's what I deem an impossible person. She never takes accountability (literally) and fault has been blamed squarely one me for every argument. 

She got frustrated because we seemingly host every large function with my family. A couple Xmas's ago, she went ballistic because of it. We started to fight and she started throwing things to make her point (dinner table trays). She even told me that the reason my late wife died was to get away from me. She's also thrown my phone, pens, candle, laundry, books and a hairspray bottle at me.

She refuses to fight away from the kids. She will yells, scream and swear in their vacinity with no second thoughts. They are obviously crying and upset and she doesn't care about them at that point - just getting her rocks off instead. The last time she yelled at me, I picked up my daughter to take her out of the house away from it, she proceeded to pick up our son, block my path and told me I'd have to knock her and our son over if I wanted to leave. Then she proceeded to try and rip my daughter out of my hands, hurting her. 

She is addicted to Facebook, constantly on it whether it's on her Blackberry or iPod. Even when we are doing family stuff, she needs to check it, even when she has notifications goign to her phone. There are moments when she's on the computer with the BB in one hand and the iPod in the other. She texts alot too. I feel second place to these devices and social media sites. She sees nothing wrong with it though.

She stresses and thinks the world is collapsing around her. Example: she called me a work and flipped out how we couldn't go on vacation this summer because she couldn't fiind our passport information (which needs to be renewed), then proceeded to hang up on me. Later that night, she was fowl because we were going to be late for our daughters soccer game and how it would be so embarrassing to her. And this morning, she left in an absolute panic saying she'd be late for work because she was subbing at another school and didn't have directions. First, I rushed home from work to find her with the passport in hands, hence I needed to work extra (which sucked because I needed to be home to race home to soccer so our daughter wouldn't be late). I ended up getting our daughter to her game early. And she got to work on time with a few minutes to spare. She relishes being a victim, but denies it (moreso, she gets enraged when I mention it). This was all within a 24 hour period but happens all the time.

She has more than one occasion called me a sh!tty father, a pathetic, lame excuse for a father and will always be a liar. She's called me a sperm donar in front of my kids. She's called me at work too often complaining to me or about me about stuff that isn't even relevant, and I've received two verbal warning from my boss that if it continues, I will be terminated, as it distracts and affects those who work around me. When I tell her this, she just gets more enraged that I work for a sh!tty company. No accountability.

We bought a new home, but it's in constant disarray. She's a messy person but I don't say anything because our kids are pretty demanding. But her needs for the house exceed what I think the needs are, 100% of the time. Shs spends alot of money for "appearance" type things - she's very much about the appearance of something, almost like planting a pretty plant over a piece of crap. Even though it looks nice, it's still a piece of crap and I think it says alot about our relationship.

She wants to get married and tells people where we'll eventually get married yet I've told her that even though she has a ring, I don't even want to consider marriage until we get ourselves on the right path. Again, the appearance of marriage is more important that the actual s tate of our relationship.

She doesn't like my family and these were people who helped me out the most when my daughter was born. I literally don't talk to them or about them anymore because it'll lead to her b!tching about them in some way shape or form. That's another thing: my family can all see my struggles and can't do anything to help.

We finally went to counselling and she told the counselor that she was as happy as she could be and that the problem with stress and issues were mine. I was so defeated at hearing that because she's such a negaitve person, that I just slumped in my chair and felt any energy that was left in me dissapate away. The counselor specifically asked her to book the next appointment but that hasn't been done. It's been 3 months since. 

She doesn't know how lucky she is. I thank her daily for the things she does and compliment her on her looks. Her response is a head knod while not looking at me or a comment that she doesn't look good and that I feel obligated to say that. She has a new house, a new vehicle, a great community to raise kids, money coming in for lifestyle flexibility, the opportunity to go out with her friends whenever she wants (with no complaints from me), etc, yet she complains about something daily.

She calls my opinions lame and my jokes gay. Anytime I try to stand up to her, she calls me a pathetic wuss for complaining and that my issues aren't her problem. She expects me to always initiate sex and to say goodnight. She complains about my breathing while I sleep, yet doesn't want me to sleep on the couch (which I offer to do). Again, she seems to relish being the victim.

There is no mention of my late wife because there is a fear that if I do, I'm comparing her to my partner (my partner seems to want to stand in the shadow of an "angel" and feels she can't compete with that. I've never compared her to my late wife). I've explained to her in the past that my late wife was a flawed person, just like me, who was far from perfect and that we considered breaking up too. We finally nailed down how to communicate and hence, the relationship got better and was fabulous for the 6 months leading up to her death. The shadow that is placed is borne by my partner and no matter what I say or do, I seem to be unable to lift it.

And don't get me wrong, I come with many flaws. But I am accountable for them. I'm home after work every night to be a responsible dad. But I'm afraid to come home 75% of the time. I've gone to counselling on my own because I believe for a time that everything WAS my fault. I wanted to go on anti-depressant pills because I was depressed (per my doctor and counsellor) but my partner felt disgusted by that and said she would leave me if I ever did that.

I don't see my friends anymore because whenever I do, I get phone calls from my partner getting mad at me or her sending me pictures of our kids crying for some reason. I can't even have a good time and my friends not only see it but admit they feel helpless. 

She's goes through my phone constantly and while I've got nothing to hide, I've put a password on it in case I lose it (so nobody else can access my phone). She thinks it's because I keep secrets from her, yet she knows the pass code. She flat out admits she doesn't trust me and never fully will (part of that may come from her ex husband's lies about employment and money (or lack of either) or a recent relationship prior to meeting me where she was beaten by another partner in front of her daughter).

Her family, while pleasant, doesn't emit warm and fuzzy feeling when it comes to emotions. She harbours alot of resentment towards her mom who "flies off the handle". I believe she sees alot of her mother in herself and resents that.

Sex is intense and rightfully so, I suppose. Alot of pent-up feelings are exerted, I'm thinking. But the lights are barely turned on due to insecurity. Another downer.

Here's the kicker and this is a major flaw on my part - she becomes very nice to me when a major blow-up concludes. I feel like she's sizing me up to chop me down again. And I fall for it everytime. She refuses to leave because of the kids, plain and simple. Just last weekend, she flat out said she hated me and while I've heard it all from her, that one I hadn't but feared the most. It stung.

What makes this unique are the kids. I would not get to see my stepdaughter, whom I love very much (who would then be a product of another broken home and would lose another father figure, even though her real dad is making strides with her as of late). My partner would not get to see my daughter and if so, not as much obviously (my daughter would lose another mother in her life, in essence). And my son would be a legal battle, if I was willing to bet on it. These are the factors that keep me in this relationship. Also, we have a family trip to Disneyland in July coming up. I just don't know what to do...

All I have left is hope. I've only scratched the surface on what I feel are issues but it did feel somewhat liberating writing all this out. Regardless of responses, thanks for listening.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

redstapler said:


> She even told me that the reason my late wife died was to get away from me. She's also thrown my phone, pens, candle, laundry, books and a hairspray bottle at me.
> 
> 
> Here's the kicker and this is a major flaw on my part - she becomes very nice to me when a major blow-up concludes. I feel like she's sizing me up to chop me down again. And I fall for it everytime.


You are in an abusive relationship. 

That whole "buttering you up" before the next episode is a classic ploy in all abusive relationships. she throws things, berates you, has zero accountability.

People like this rarely change--they get worse over time.

You can try to talk to her and tell her what an adverse effect this is having on you and hope she can empathize but it's rare people like this do. A lot of the things she has done and said to you are totally out of likne. That part about your wife dying to get away from you--reprehensible.

Only you can decide whether to stay or go but I can assure you, if it doesn't change, you will go mad over time and either become a broken man or get strong and GTFO.


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## Kauaiguy (May 8, 2011)

I think getting married is out of the question because unless your situation improves drastically, you have a lot more to lose.

I also know that you rushed yourself into this relationship instead of allowing yourself to get to know her better. What I mean is moving in together and having a child after a short period of time.

EVERY person has a tell tale sign of what you might expect from them. I've always told people that if you observe a person (especially one you're interested in), and there are things they do that bothers you, these things will increase ten fold after you end up together.

However most people ignore these signs or don't even see them because, let's face it ... when you're in love, you can't see beyond what you want to have. Or worse yet, even if you see the faults, you somehow think you'll change them or can live with it.

Don't feel alone because we're all the same ... ME INCLUDED!
I've found myself interested in a person that I KNOW I'm NOT compatible with. She has a lot of traits that I dislike, but somehow my HEART says I can deal with it. My HEAD says, YOU FOOL!

Fortunately at this time she still in the process of grieving over a late husband and is NOT interested in anyone. At least not me. Maybe that's a saving grace but I don't know what happens when she gets over grieving for her late husband and decides that she really is interested in me. GULP!

Good luck in whatever you decide to do and hope things go for the better, but really stay away from getting married for now. You've gotten yourself into this situation, don't make it worse. At least wait until you see if things get better, and it's NOT going to get better within a short period of time. You must wait it out and somebody (if not both) have to work on making things better.

You must also do some soul searching and see if you've contributed to the problem. It takes two to tango as they say.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm very sorry to hear the trials you have suffered in the past....and the suffering you and the children are currently enduring. 

This is abuse. You and the children don't need to be around this woman. Definitely keep a journal of her behavior and document everything. It could also be helpful to record some of her behavior if possible. It's time for you to see an attorney and see exactly where you stand; start planning your exit.

You deserve some happiness in life. I wish you the best!


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## redstapler (Oct 14, 2010)

I keep giving my self deadlines, like "I'll wait a month to see how it goes and if it's still like this, then I need to leave". But then I do nothing.

She's a teacher and just emailed me saying a kid in her class is sick and she asked if she could call her mom and dad to come get him. The kid said to call his mom because he doesn't have a dad anymore - "he left us", he said. Her comment to me was "Sad that kids this age (gr 1) can say things like that. Do you think she's planting a "guilt" seed in my mind?

Maybe I've looking into it too much but she told me many times before that she wouldn't leave unless I hit her. She would stay just for the kids benefit. It told me that if there was a "bad guy", it would be me (if I decided to leave).


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Run Like Hell. The clinical term is bat**** insane.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

redstapler said:


> I ke
> 
> She's a teacher and just emailed me saying a kid in her class is sick and she asked if she could call her mom and dad to come get him. The kid said to call his mom because he doesn't have a dad anymore - "he left us", he said. Her comment to me was "Sad that kids this age (gr 1) can say things like that. Do you think she's planting a "guilt" seed in my mind?


Without a doubt. This woman is very capable of playing mind games. You may want to see an individual therapist to help you sort through your current dilemma--and to find the strength you must have.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Start documenting her behavior--get a voice activated recorder, or something simple to keep in a pocket, so you can record her performances. Don't tell her. Maybe get a nanny cam to catch her on video too. 

She may well have something like borderline personality disorder or nacissitic peronsality disorder--google 'em. Lack of self-awareness (ie, she cannot see herself as she really is) makes it very difficult for therapy to work with such people. So document the behaviors so you can protect yourself and your kids.

You made a huge mistake in blending families so quickly, but of course you know that now. When children are involved, you shouldn't even be introducing partners for at least 6 months, and give it a year before living together. The last thing your daughter needs in her life is more abandonment--by the death of her mom, by her next "mom" if, as seems likely, you will have to leave this woman. Being a single dad is hard but not impossible, as you discovered; why were you in such a hurry to change things? If you are one of those people who "can't be alone," you NEED to be alone until you get past that feeling, or you will continue to make bad decisions about partners.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Red, as Sisters said above, you are describing the classic traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW suffers from. Whether those traits are so severe as to meet the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD is a determination that only a professional can make. This does not mean, however, that you cannot spot the red flags -- i.e., a strong occurrence of BPD traits -- in a woman you've been living with for over two years. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about verbal and physical abuse, black-white thinking, inability to control impulses, inability to trust, projections (blaming), and emotional instability.


redstapler said:


> She was easy going, seemed independent but willing to give too, and is sexy at the same time. My family was very supportive when they met her and got to know her.


BPDers are extremely easy to fall in love with. One reason is that they typically have a child-like warmth of expression that is very disarming, especially to a caregiver like you. The main reason, however, is that a BPDer has such a fragile sense of who she is that she does not have a stable sense of how she should behave when meeting new people. She therefore figures out how they expect her to behave and then acts in that manner. Because she has been doing this since the age of 3 or 4, she is very good at it. Indeed, this is why BPDers tend to be very good actors and many end up in that profession. And this is why your partner likely behaves very differently around different types of people. Importantly, this does not constitute an effort to manipulate or deceive. Rather, it is simply the way she has been thinking since early childhood. Lacking a strong sense of who she is, she has been forced to rely on others to "center" and "ground" her fragile, unstable personality.

I mention this, Red, because it explains why you fell head over heals in love with her so quickly. Namely, if your partner is a BPDer, she would have pulled out all the stops when meeting a man she was infatuated with. That is, she would have adopted all of the best aspects of your personality -- to the point of liking nearly everything you like and disliking nearly every thing you cannot stand. This process -- called "mirroring" -- is done so perfectly that the two of you were quickly convinced you had met your "soul mate."

That honeymoon mirroring period rarely lasts longer than six months, however. It requires enormous focus and energy on her part. Moreover, as the months go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of the sacrifices she is making by doing things she really does not enjoy doing. But while this infatuation period lasted, you likely experienced great sex and the most wonderful, passionate experience of your lifetime. As soon as it ended, however, her two great fears -- engulfment and abandonment -- returned together with the enormous anger she carries inside. Hence, that is when you started triggering her rages and temper tantrums.


> She never takes accountability (literally) and fault has been blamed squarely one me for every argument.


Unless they receive years of treatment, BPDers will spend a lifetime convinced they are always victims. Lacking a strong sense of who they are, BPDers are loath to let go of that notion that they are victims because it is the closest thing they have to a lasting, stable self image. It therefore is extremely important to a BPDer to support the "victim" self concept in any way possible. 

Of course, during the six month honeymoon, you fully supported the fiction that she is a victim by being her savior, her white knight. That is why she said all previous BFs were awful and that she had never met any man like you before (and she believed in while she was saying it). Even after the honeymoon ended, you continued to support her role as victim. Yet, because you were no longer put up on a pedestal as a savior, she had to perceive you as a perpetrator. You see, it is hard to always be a victim unless you have a "perpetrator" (i.e., you) near at hand at all times -- for blaming. The irony, then, is that you are about as valuable to her as a perpetrator as you were as savior.

If that seems hard to believe, consider for a minute the fact that she never really wanted you to actually save her. The evidence for that is the fact that, every time you pulled her from the raging seas to safety, she would jump right back into the water again within two weeks. What you were doing that was so valuable, then, was not the "saving" but rather the reinforcement of her image as "victim." And, as perpetrator, you continue to play that toxic role.


> She doesn't like my family.... I literally don't talk to them or about them anymore because it'll lead to her b!tching about them in some way shape or form.


BPDers have a great fear of abandonment and therefore are irrational in their jealousy of time you spend with friends and family. Moreover, due to that fear, they try to control every important aspect of your life. Of course, controlling you is far easier if you have no support from friends and family (i.e., nobody to say "That's the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard....). This is why it is common for a BPDer to make every attempt to isolate you from friends and family. My exW, for example, refused to visit my family so I always had to go alone. And she hated my foster son.


> We started to fight and she started throwing things to make her point (dinner table trays). She even told me that the reason my late wife died was to get away from me. She's also thrown my phone, pens, candle, laundry, books and a hairspray bottle at me.


Yes, she throws temper tantrums. And they nearly always last about five hours. But why are you surprised? This is exactly how nearly all BPDers act. They do not behave in this childish way because they are bad people. Rather, they behave like children because their emotional development is frozen at the level of a four year old.

Hence, you are essentially seeing the behavior of a four year old who has the body strength, intelligence, and cunning of a fully grown woman. But it is worse than that because _this particular four year old _has enormous anger inside that she has been carrying since early childhood. And that anger is easily triggered, within 10 seconds, by a minor infraction or an innocent comment. And you never know what type of comment will trigger her anger the next time. This is why you've been walking on eggshells for the past two years, trying to avoid setting her off. And this is why the best selling BPD book on the planet -- targeted to nonBPD partners like you -- is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.


> She refuses to fight away from the kids. She will yells, scream and swear in their vacinity with no second thoughts.


Like a child, she is unable to control her emotions and therefore experiences such intense anger and anxiety that she feels a great urgency to resolve every dispute immediately, no matter the cost. And, like a child, she will only get worse in throwing tantrums if she is not held fully accountable for her actions. 

Hence, although the BPD traits can explain her abusive and selfish behavior, they do not _excuse _it for one minute. Your partner is choosing to behave in that ugly manner and has no incentive to change -- or to seek treatment -- as long as you are willing to stay around and allow her to continue behaving like a four year old. She also is choosing to not seek treatment. Signficantly, BPD does not force those choices on her. Instead, she is making those bad choices every time she starts an argument.


> We finally went to counselling and she told the counselor that she was as happy as she could be and that the problem with stress and issues were mine.


Like I said above, BPDers are excellent actors. So your partner didn't even have to break a sweat for a 50 minute performance in front of a counselor. Well, it likely didn't matter anyway. If you were seeing a marriage counselor, it was a total waste of time. They are not trained to diagnose BPD, much less treat it. Until the damage to her emotional core is treated -- which would take years -- it is pointless to go to a MC. Teaching your partner better communication skills, while she is still crippled with strong BPD traits, likely will only make her better at controling you.

There are some excellent treatment programs available for BPDers who are strongly motivated to seek them out and stay in them for at least several years. But, sadly, the odds of that happening are very slim. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than ever seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference.


> I thank her daily for the things she does and compliment her on her looks. Her response is a head knod while not looking at me or a comment that she doesn't look good and that I feel obligated to say that.


BPDers have extremely low self esteem -- to the point of hating themselves. I know, I know -- as a caregiver, you want badly to heal her by showing your love and devotion. There are two reasons, however, why that is impossible. First, she has a great fear of engulfment which occurs whenever you draw near to her and become intimate. It is a terrible feeling of losing herself into your strong personality -- of being suffocated and controlled -- as though she is evaporating into thin air. To get breathing room, she will create an argument over nothing to push you away. This, incidentally, is why your worst fights with her usually are started by her immediately after an intimate evening or great weekend together. Anyway, the result is that trying to heal a BPDer by loving her is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her. It cannot be done.

The second reason is that she is incapable of trusting you. This is why, no matter how many times you tell her she is beautiful and that you love her, she cannot believe you. And this is why it is so tragic for guys like us to stand there helplessly watching our wives struggling to stay afloat -- only five feet in front of us. We reach out and urge them to take our hands. But they cannot. They are incapable of believing us.


> She has a new house, a new vehicle, a great community to raise kids, money coming in for lifestyle flexibility, the opportunity to go out with her friends whenever she wants (with no complaints from me), etc, yet she complains about something daily.


BPDers typically are that way. They have a bottomless empty hole inside and it is impossible to fill it. No matter how many sacrifices you make for her, she cannot appreciate them for more than a few days. Whatever appreciation she has -- like a sand castle beside the sea -- is washed aside by the next wave of intense feelings sweeping through her mind. This is why it is impossible for you to build up a store of good will in her that will carry the two of you through hard times. Hence, with BPDers, it is always "what have you done for me lately." But this should not be surprising -- all four year olds behave that same way.


> Again, she seems to relish being the victim.


Like I said, your primary value is being the readily available "perpetrator" on which all misfortunes can be blamed. Your role in the marriage, then, is essentially being a trash can in which she dispose of all feelings of guilt and shame. This process, called "projection," is something that you and I know so well. We often did it ourselves when we were four years old, telling our parents "Sis did it."


> I don't see my friends anymore because whenever I do, I get phone calls from my partner getting mad at me


As I said above, a BPDer typically tries to isolate her partner away from friends as well as family members.


> She flat out admits she doesn't trust me and never fully will (part of that may come from her ex husband's lies about employment and money (or lack of either) or a recent relationship prior to meeting me where she was beaten by another partner in front of her daughter).


BPDers generally are incapable of trusting and have been that way since early childhood (when their emotional development stopped). It therefore is highly unlikely that the lack of trust started with the exBF.


> Her family, while pleasant, doesn't emit warm and fuzzy feeling when it comes to emotions. She harbours alot of resentment towards her mom who "flies off the handle". I believe she sees alot of her mother in herself and resents that.


A recent large scale study found that 70% of BPDers report coming from dysfunctional families, where they were abused or abandoned by a parent during early childhood. It therefore is not surprising that your partner has a dysfunctional family.


> Here's the kicker and this is a major flaw on my part - she becomes very nice to me when a major blow-up concludes. I feel like she's sizing me up to chop me down again.


Perhaps, if she has "split you black" permanently. More likely, however, she has flipped from "splitting you black" to "splitting you white." As I mentioned above, a BPDer will feel engulfed during too much closeness and will become abusive and angry to push you away. Yet, as you pull back to give her breathing space, eventually -- a few hours or days later -- her great fear of abandonment will replace her fear of engulfment. At that point, she will start reeling you back in because she is so fearful of abandonment. 

For a better explanation of this push-away and pull-back cycle and several other BPD traits, I suggest you read my three posts in GTRR's thread. They start at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...depressed-its-always-my-fault.html#post188319. Those posts also provide links to websites providing excellent BPD information. If this discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to try to answer any questions you have. Meanwhile, please start taking better care of yourself, Caregiver.


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## redstapler (Oct 14, 2010)

Wow, Uptown. What a complete and exact breakdown. I agree with all you say. Thanks for the insight!

She did once admit, after a fight and I had said "why are you unhappy all the time?!", that maybe she needed help and wanted to utilize some counseling services through my work's employee assistance program. I thought her admitting to that was a huge revelation and finally, we were on the right track.

She was grumpy just before her appointment and I asked her if she was nervous. She said "No. I'm only doing this because you want me to do it." Like you say - black and white.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

She is abusive. What an awful situation to be in, and I bet she feels out of control, and that's part of the reason she doesn't like her self.

You either need to leave, or you need to step up and put your foot down in drastic way.

She won't change unless she thinks she may lose you so you have to mean what you tell her.

I would stop engaging with her. If she is going to yell and scream anyway just stonewall her. Tell her you won't engage unless she is being reasonable, and stick with it.

Also the minute she starts to put you down you should tell her, "you are being abusive/ mean and I won't hear it". Walk away.

Only listen to legitimate complaints, and allow her to only stick to those. If I have something to say to my SO, I only talk about those things I try not to bring up another 100 things and put him down as well. You should not let her do that either.

Let her know that if she is physically abusive or blocks your path with a child that you are willing to call the police. Tell her you don't mind what the outcome is as long as she stops doing that.

I would read the man up threads on here, and try implimenting those things.

You really shouldn't have to live like that and I hate to think of your children living with it.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Unfortunately, just because you can label the crazy behavior it doesn't solve the problem. I worked in health care for 12 years, so I've seen almost everything.

redstapler, your first priority needs to be doing what's best for you and your children.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> redstapler, your first priority needs to be doing what's best for you and your children.


I agree. Absolutely.


827Aug said:


> Unfortunately, just because you can label the crazy behavior it doesn't solve the problem.


I fully agree it won't solve the W's problem. But labeling her dysfunctional behavior can open Red's eyes to the likelihood he himself has a problem -- codependency -- that he needs to work on. Otherwise, he is at risk of leaving his BPDer W only to run into the arms of another woman just like her.

IME, a man who marries a BPDer and lives with her for nearly 3 years likely has strong aspects of codependency in his personality, as I do. This means that his desire to be needed (for what he can do) far exceeds his desire to be loved (for the man he already is). Otherwise, he never would have tolerated the abuse for so long.

At the BPD websites targeted to such men, I have found that the best way to make them aware of their "excessive caregiver" traits is to first explain that they have spent years pulling a woman from the raging seas -- only to see her repeatedly jump right back into the water every time, waiting to be rescued over and over again. Once the man understands the futility of his behavior -- i.e., trying to save a BPDer who does not want to be saved -- he quickly realizes that the toxic relationship is not something SHE is doing to him. 

Rather, it is something that BOTH are doing to each other. He will easily realize that his contribution to the toxicity has been his enabling behavior, which allows the W to continue throwing temper tantrums like a four year old. This insight is very empowering because it means that the toxicity will end when he develops stronger personal boundaries to protect himself.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Yeah I've gone on record before and often that borderlines are not salvageable. It can't be fixed. It is the most toxic form of mental illness short of flat out schizophrenic violence.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> borderlines are not salvageable. It can't be fixed.


RLD, I agree that BPD cannot be cured at this time. This does not imply, however, that BPDers "are not salvageable."  On the contrary, there are excellent treatment programs available (e.g., DBT) that are training thousands of BPDers how to manage their emotions, how to intellectually challenge their feelings, and how to do self soothing. The problem, then, is not that BPDers "are not salvageable" but, rather, that few have the self awareness and ego strength to want to stay in those treatments long enough to make a difference. 

With respect to most BPDers, RLD, I readily concede that my disagreement with you is a distinction without a difference. We both end up concluding that the vast majority of BPDers do not choose to get better. Yet, for those few who are self aware -- and I've communicated with nearly a hundred of them -- this distinction makes all the difference in the world.


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## Dominion (May 16, 2011)

I think there are legal issues in this as well. Is "common law" marriage applicable here? Is there a reason why she might want to keep you there but at arms length?

It does seem like you may need to analyze this from the perspective of looking ahead 25 years from now. What affect will this have had on all of you - her and your children as well. Can the kids be mentally healthy after living in the environment you describe for 10 more years?


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Red, 
I can't believe your wife is a teacher, she is not well. Start documenting her behavior. Get yourself a voice activated recorder, record her tirades. Protect yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## redstapler (Oct 14, 2010)

Now I'm really confused.

This past weekend, we were packing to head up to the lake where my daughters' grandparents live. My partner then has a bit of a breakdown (with tears and all) about how she's so tired, getting sick, how our son was sick and needed rest, how the house was so dirty and how she needed to prepare for an interview the next week. I said that I was fine to take the kids up on my own (the back of my mind didn't want her there ruining my weekend anyways, especially with moods like this). She was acting like she was a victim, even though she could have totally stayed home to recharge her batteries. She then decided that she was going to stay (all while raising her voice to me while the kids were present). She changed her mind two minutes later, huffing and puffing about. But the episode pretty much ruined my weekend right there.

At the lake that weekend, she spent more of her time on her BB/iPod (Facebook) than conversing with me. We had a bit of an argument in the hottub early in the evening that was a miscommunication in the end and then got nasty with me at bedtime when she pointed out that I never offered her wine before I offered up my inlaws. When I say she pointed out, what I mean is she said I was such a d!ck to her (yet the night before she said she loved me). I said I was going to sleep on the couch because telling me she loves me one night to telling me I'm a d!ck and a sh!tty father the next, was bipolar. She then grabbed a pillow and hit me with it three time then slapped me in the face (with her hand). I was in shock. My body was shaking and felt that it was a mixture of anger and anxiety. I went to the couch and sat there for 5 minutes just shaking profusely. 

She came out of the room and said she was sorry for slapping me but she said she did it because I said she had a mental disorder. I told her to go away and that I wasn't speaking to her anymore. Then she did this weird thing by sticking her fingers in my mouth whispering for me to open my mouth and talk. She did this for a full minute when I finally pushed her fingers out of my mouth, where then she tells me that I was physically abusive to her. I then went upstairs by the inlaws room (just to get away from her) and she followed me up there too. I knew she couldn't behave the same way up there in case she woke them because appearance is far too important to her. I said I'd come back down to sleep in the couch if she went down first to go to sleep on the bed. She said "fine" and when I went back downstairs, she was standing off to the side watching me. I then ignored her to lie down to sleep and she came from across the room to say that I went upstairs to be closer to my late wife (whose urn was up there, along with some pictures). I went upstairs because I just 100% wanted to get away from her.

The next work day, I asked my mother-in-law how she thought the weekend went. She said "To be direct....the whole relationship looks "brittle" as if everything will fall apart in a minute. No, you don't look like you care much for each other and it feels like the air is always thick." I decided then to look into BPD and specifically, how to leave someone with BPD. Basically, you needed to be quiet about it, plan ahead, see a counselor, then pull the plug. I've since booked an appt with my doctor to get on an antidepressant (I'm really depressed, I think) and booked an appt with a counselor to discuss my intentions and how should I go about it. BTW - it's been very calm at home since the weekend. Usual fare of her playing the waiting game to build me up (in my belief) just to have the opportunity to chop me down later.

But then today comes, which happens to be my late wife's birthday. Our daughter is 3 and is starting to comprehend (a little) who her "angel mommy" is. Well, I get a call this afternoon from my partner and it's actually my daughter on the phone saying she gave her angel mommy a red balloon and sent it into the sky for her as a gift. And there's a Facebook video of it online now, for all to see. My partner set this all up and I was very appreciative of it, and surprised.

My question is - do you think this is genuine but yet still speaks to the potential disorder or is this just another way to butter me up. Regardless, I'm at the end of my line.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> Do you think this is genuine but yet still speaks to the potential disorder or is this just another way to butter me up.


Red, I believe her gesture of being a good mother with the red balloon and video is a genuine effort to be kind to your D and you. As I tried to explain above and in GTRR's thread (link provided above), a BPDer is emotionally unstable and therefore experiences intense emotions she cannot manage. 

Moreover, a BPDer never integrated the good and bad aspects of herself into a coherent, stable sense of self. She therefore cannot tolerate gray areas and ambiguities -- with the result that she does black-white thinking, sometimes perceiving you to be "all good" and sometimes "all bad." Granted, a BPDer typically is very controlling and sometimes tries to manipulate. Yet, much of what you are seeing, IMO, is the result of her splitting instead of manipulation. 

This is why she is perfectly capable of adoring you for a few days and, then in 10 seconds, can switch to hating you. In both states, she is genuine in the sense that she usually will believe what she is saying -- never mind that it makes no sense and arises only from her distorted perceptions. Of course, a BPDer typically will make up lies if she is cornered. But you will drive yourself crazy if you try to tease apart all the lies from all the misperceptions. In my experience with my exW, most of the outrageous, nonsensical allegations are misperceptions.


> Telling me she loves me one night to telling me I'm a d!ck and a sh!tty father the next, was bipolar.


As I explained, those rapid flips from adoring you to hating you is a hallmark of BPD traits, not bipolar disorder. There are several clear differences between the two disorders. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a YEAR.

In sharp contrast -- and as you've seen many times with your partner -- four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four DAYS. The BPD rages, for example, typically last about 5 hours and rarely as long as 36 hours (if the BPD sufferer is inner-directed, you will not witness a raging screaming person but, instead, a quiet withdrawn person who turns her anger onto herself).

A second difference is that the onset is very different. Whereas a bipolar change may slowly build up over several weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- usually in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

A third difference is that, whereas bipolar can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPD is splitting you black. The difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

Finally, a fourth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

Yet, despite these four clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. The primary source of this confusion seems to be the fact that many BPD sufferers (perhaps 20% or so) also have the bipolar disorder.

Red, if you have not already done so, I strongly recommend you read _"Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD." _ It is Article 9 at http://www.bpdfamily.com/tools/articles9.htm. The dozen other articles there are excellent too. Moreover, the message board on "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" is excellent at that same website.


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## Calendula (May 7, 2011)

Redstapler - I was wondering how you were doing or if things had changed/improved?


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## KathyGriffinFan (Apr 4, 2011)

Uptown, you really have your BPD nailed down. How do you know it so well?

Wow, reading this thread takes me back to the days early on in my marriage that my BPD was in full force. My H and I refer to that time in our lives as "the bad years" and we don't even talk about the first 2 years of our marriage. They were tough, ugly, exhausting years and included fights that lasted for hours. I often said "I hate you" and then would scream at him to leave, and when he did, I'd scream "don't leave me." This is also the name of the first book on BPD that I ever read, "I hate you, don't leave me."

When I first began to understand BPD in 2002, it was only by chance. The H and I were out driving around, after a nasty fight, and we were listening to the radio show Loveline with Dr. Drew, when a man caller phoned in to the show and described his W. It was like he was describing me. He advised him to read the book that I listed above.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

KathyGriffinFan said:


> Uptown, you really have your BPD nailed down. How do you know it so well?


KGF, thanks for the kind words. You must have an amazing level of self awareness, together with much ego strength, to have learned to manage your emotions and intellectually challenge your intense feelings. I would be surprised if as much as 1% of BPDer are able to accomplish that.

To answer your question, I learned about BPD from all the ex-partners and ex-spouses who established websites to help caregivers like me who had become mired in a toxic relationship with a BPDer. They provided numerous articles written by professionals. I quickly realized that the toxcity was not something my exW was doing to me but, rather, something we were doing to each other. 

Then I was able to understand that I was actually harming her by staying in the marriage and enabling her to avoid suffering the logical consequences of her dysfunctional behavior. Until we codependent caregivers realize we are doing more harm than good, we are loath to let go of the BPDer because of our guilt and sense of utter failure in not being able to fix her.


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## redstapler (Oct 14, 2010)

Calendula said:


> Redstapler - I was wondering how you were doing or if things had changed/improved?


Well, I picked up the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and everything about it so far strikes a nerve, meaning it's all relevant. Especially the parts on how their behavior affects mine. 

I've also determined that she has every symptom (or trait) or a high-functioning, invisible BP'er (borderline personality disorder). Has the same smarts and intellect as you and I (maybe more) but also has the emotional capacity of a child. 

But there's very little on how to leave. It seems to focus on coping with the symptoms and almost defends those with BPD. At least that's how I try and decipher it but I'm also not done the book yet.

I just feel trapped. She's on me about something every day and no matter how little it is, I feel my fear and anger escalating but in the end, I internalize it all, waiting for the day I'm strong enough to leave.

So much is guilt driven. After my late wife died, I was in so much despair but because I managed my guilt (for the things I did and did not do in my marriage - regret, perhaps), I was able to rebound and see that I had a lot of life left. Then I met my current partner and trule believe that this relationship was going to be great. I was so wrong.

I've scoured this forum, searched the internet, read oodles of book, just to try and find an answer to my fears. I'm only understanding right now that she has a disorder (in my belief) and that I can only take care of me. I'm also afraid of being labeled the "bad guy". No amount of research can "make" me grow a pair and leave. I need to work up the strength and make it happen. I did find one website that had steps on how to leave someone with BPD and it all seems very deceitful (plan ahead, talk to a counselor and properly formulate what you are going to do, remove personal items that may be destroyed, then pull the plug) - hence, the guilt comes in. And I own everything tangible for the most part so I also have to deal with the fear of where she's going to go with her daughter and potentially our son.

Again, I feel stuck and need to work up the courage. Because I too, am starting to become codependant because of the situation and am starting to see things black-and-white. At least I can recognize it and determine that that is a real problem I need to take care of, as well.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Red, I suspect that your reluctance to leave an abusive W is an oppressive feeling of guilt and obligation (much of which may simply be transferred from your guilt over things you never had the opportunity to say or do for your first wife. To let go of that guilt, it could help a lot to see a clinical psychologist -- on your own -- for at least a few visits. By working on your own issues, maybe you'll feel strong enough to leave your W later this year -- after the July vacation is behind you.

If you want to read more about codependence, I suggest _Codependent No More_ for a good book. As to articles, I suggest Schreiber's article at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. Her other articles at that site are good too. Ultimately, you want to get yourself strong enough to do whatever you determine to be in the best interests of your children. You don't have to do it today. Just work toward that goal. Even after my exW had me thrown in jail on a bogus charge, it took me another six months to get the strength to file for divorce. Even after the divorce, it took me another 8 months to decide to go NC (which was possible because we had no young children together).


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## KathyGriffinFan (Apr 4, 2011)

Red, how is everything going?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

^^^^^ Yes, Red, how are you doing? Please update us when you have a chance.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Red, if you have not already done so, I strongly recommend you read _"Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD." _ It is Article 9 at T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York. The dozen other articles there are excellent too. Moreover, the message board on "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD" is excellent at that same website.


Without a proper medical diagnosis, there is *no way * to know if she is actually BPD or anything else.

It DOES sound like she isn't stable though. Everything you've mentioned about her screams *ABUSER* to me. She is an abusive person at minimum. 

The thing is...until you do something to make a change, you will get the same in return from your relationship. Plain and simple.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> Without a proper medical diagnosis, there is *no way * to know if she is actually BPD or anything else.


Jelly, in every field of the medical sciences, a "disorder" is a "disease" that one either has or does not have. In psychology, however, the ten personality "disorders" are not diseases. There are no known diseases causing any of the ten PDs. That is, nobody knows whether a single disease causes all ten PDs or whether BPD can be caused by six different diseases. Hence, the personality "disorders" are simply classificatory devices for grouping some dysfunctional symptoms that therapists often observe occurring together. 

Because BPD is only a collection of symptoms (i.e., traits) that every adult exhibits occasionally, the important question is not whether a person "has" or "does not have" those traits -- because _everybody_ has them. Instead, the important question is whether enough of those nine traits are so strong as to interfere with the person's ability to maintain LTRs with loved ones. Significantly, even when the traits fall well short of the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD," they can be so strong as to ruin a marriage. 

The diagnostic criteria for having any of the PDs have been an embarrassment to the psychiatric profession for decades. Because PDs are sets of symptoms, and because symptoms differ from person to person by degree, the diagnostic criteria should produce graduated results that reflect the severity of symptoms. The current diagnostic manual, however, uses a binary approach (i.e., 0,1) in which the client either has or does not have the symptoms -- an approach that makes sense for diseases (which you either have or don't have) but makes no sense for symptoms.

If this silly approach were used in any of the medical sciences, the absurdity would be immediately apparent. It is the equivalent of saying a man is "tall" when above 6'6" and "short" when below that height. It is the equivalent of saying a man has a fever when temperature exceeds 106 degrees but no fever at all below that temperature. Psychologists are finally trying to address this failing in the new manual scheduled for release in 2013. It will replace the binary approach with a graduated one.

Hence, it would be of little comfort to Red to know that his Ex has been determined to "NOT have BPD," i.e., to not satisfy the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD." If her behavior meets 80% of the BPD criteria, she would be very difficult to live with even though she falls below the threshold test for having that disorder. That threshold test targets the needs of courts and hospitals, not the needs of partners and spouses trying to decide whether to leave or stay. Moreover, as I noted above, it is easy to spot the nine traits in someone you've been living with for years. There is nothing subtle about the verbal abuse, physical abuse, temper tantrums, and black-white thinking that Red has been observing.


> It DOES sound like she isn't stable though.


Emotional instability is a hallmark of BPD traits. It is listed as one of the nine BPD traits. It is not a hallmark of any other PD. Sociopaths and narcissists, for example, are emotionally stable individuals.


> Everything you've mentioned about her screams *ABUSER* to me. She is an abusive person at minimum.


"Anger that is inappropriate, intense, or uncontrollable" is another hallmark of BPD. The diagnostic manual lists it as one of the nine BPD traits. See Borderline Personality Disorder.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Emotional instability is a hallmark of BPD traits.


It's also another hallmark of an abuser. 

W/o a proper medical diagnosis by someone who actually knows her and deals with her, all we can do is psychoanalyze. 

I said the above cause I noticed you've told people on a couple of threads that they sound like/appear to be involved with BPD'er and I think that is a loaded statement to make w/o actually knowing the person IRL.

With that said, I definitely agree w/ you that this lady in particular sounds like she is off he rocker and it would be best if he got out of this relationship.


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## redstapler (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm going to follow through on Uptown's advice and that's get myself talking to a professional who understands BPD but to also get to my issues, such as codependancy and extreme guilt for what I've been thinking. I will ride out the vacations with her and the family but continue to plan to leave. Since reading "Stop Walking On Eggshells", i've had a huge weight taken off my shoulders, realizing that things are not my fault, but more an inability for her to take accountability.

I'm working up the strength to get to the inevitable, but I'm not there yet. However, this forum, and other resources, have helped guide me in the right direction. I'll keep you updated.

Here's a good link that is preparing me:

T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York

I think Uptown recommended it to me previously.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> It's also another hallmark of an abuser.


Jelly, there is no mental disorder called "abuser." Being abusive is simply one behavioral _trait_ (i.e., a symptom). By itself, it explains nothing. Hence, when folks come to the forum asking why a spouse who loves them can be so abusive, we explain nothing by saying "he is abusive because he is an abuser." 

Yet, if you match that single trait up with several others that form a well-known pattern of dysfunctional traits, you usually can explain a lot. If you match abusive behavior together with other narcissistic traits, for example, you can gain an understanding of why that individual so desperately needs validation of his false self image. Similarly, if you find that the person exhibits abusive behavior together with other BPD traits, you can explain why a person can love you for a week and, then in ten seconds, flip to hating you. As Red points out, the great value of finding these explanations is that, once the abused partner is able to clearly see the abuser's role in the toxic relationship, he can for the first time see his own role -- which usually is some form of codependency. This insight will remove the terrible burden of guilt and obligation that is keeping many abused partners mired in the toxic relationship.

Without removing that burden of guilt, it usually does no good to keep telling the spouse or partner that they are being abused and their partners are "abusers." They know that already. Indeed, they come here to the forums describing that abuse in great detail.


> W/o a proper medical diagnosis by someone who actually knows her and deals with her, all we can do is psychoanalyze.


I respectfully disagree. Before you graduated from high school, you already could spot the very selfish and grandiose classmates -- without psychoanalyzing and diagnosing Narcissistic PD. You could spot the class drama queen without psychoanalyzing to diagnose Histrionic PD. And you could identify all the very shy students -- without psychoanalyzing to diagnose Avoidant PD. Likewise, when you've been living with someone for over a year, you can easily spot all strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about verbal and physical abuse, refusal to accept responsibility for anything, excessive jealousy, constant blaming, temper tantrums, and black-white thinking.


> I said the above cause I noticed you've told people on a couple of threads that they sound like/appear to be involved with BPD'er and I think that is a loaded statement to make w/o actually knowing the person IRL.


I never pretended to know the abusive person. Moreover, I defined "BPDer" as a person having strong BPD traits (regardless of whether they are strong enough to meet the diagnostic criteria). As I explained above, there is a world of difference between spotting red flags (i.e., strong traits) and performing a formal diagnosis. Spotting the red flags is easy. Indeed, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to spot traits like verbal abuse, jealousy, and temper tantrums in a person you've been living with for years. I therefore point the OPs to online information about BPD traits and encourage them to decide -- for themselves -- whether they are spotting strong BPD traits in their partners.


> I definitely agree w/ you that this lady in particular sounds like she is off the rocker and it would be best if he got out of this relationship.


If by "off the rocker," you mean "emotionally impaired," I would agree. If you mean "crazy," however, I would disagree. "Crazy" means a person has lost touch with physical reality, as occurs in a delusional state. Folks suffering from BPD traits are not crazy because they see physical reality just fine. What is distorted by their illness is their perception of other peoples' motivations and intentions. I therefore see nothing in Red's thread indicating that his partner is crazy.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Uptown said:


> Jelly, there is no mental disorder called "abuser." .


I did not say there was. 



Uptown said:


> Without removing that burden of guilt, it usually does no good to keep telling the spouse or partner that they are being abused and their partners are "abusers." They know that already..


Not all do.



Uptown said:


> If by "off the rocker," you mean "emotionally impaired," I would agree.


Yep, that is what I meant.

Nonetheless, I still stand by my position.


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## redstapler (Oct 14, 2010)

I haven't posted in a while on this situation but something happened this weekend that I need some advice on. 

We've had it out off an on for the past couple months over numerous issues but this past weekend we more or less agreed to split. She then changes her tune and literally says that she can't emotionally handle another breakup (and "broken family") and very seriously said that she would kill herself, my daughter and our son if I left her. I was stunned, scared and appalled. After some questioning from me, she changed her tune again and said she would just kill herself, then left the room. I ended up sleeping in the same room we fought in but she then came down a bit later, laid next to me and said "I don't want to die". 

How do I deal with that? Because she's been flipping between all emotions since that conversation.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

redstapler said:


> She said that she would kill herself, my daughter and our son if I left her. I was stunned, scared and appalled. After some questioning from me, she changed her tune again and said she would just kill herself.


Red, what a mess! That is very VERY scary. If your GF is a high functioning BPDer, as she sounds like, I normally would simply advise you to not be blackmailed into staying with her. Because HF BPDers are so controlling, it is not uncommon for them to threaten suicide as a way of controlling you. My exW, for example, walked to a high bridge on two occasions, knowing that I was following protectively behind. When I stopped following her on such depressed days, she stopped going to the bridge. Instead, she went to a subway platform and called me, claiming she was going to jump in front of the next train. Then she hung up. She did that twice too. 

What is so frightening and chilling about your GF's threat, however, is her threat to kill your two children. I therefore believe that you should immediately call the police or a social agency and have a record of the incident made. I believe the police should be notified. Yet, if you are reluctant to do that, I suggest that you at least call 911 and ask them what social agency you can report this clear danger to. You must take action to protect your children.

Of course, when your GF is questioned, she will deny all of it (which is why Sisters was urging you on 5/11 to "start documenting everything--get a voice activated recorder"). Although you have no recording, it is very important to document this dangerous, outrageous threat -- particularly since you are going to be in a nasty custody battle over your son to prevent him from being raised full time by an unstable mother. Social agencies take this sort of threat very seriously because the sick spouse sometimes makes good on the threat and kills the children.

This record of your allegation can be extremely important, particularly if your GF calls the police on you and tries to get you arrested. The police will be hesitant to arrest you if they see a record of your having reported her as being threatening to the life of your children. Moreover, such a record may prove helpful during the custody battle.

I also suggest that you read another book by the same author (Kreger) who wrote _Stop Walking on Eggshells,_ which you've already read. His newest book, published just a few months ago, is called _Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder._ It could be very helpful to you.

Finally, as I did earlier, I suggest again that you participate at the "Raising a Child" and "Leaving" message boards at BPDfamily.com. That is the same website where you found that excellent article about "Surviving a Break-Up with Someone Suffering with BPD." There are many guys at those message boards who have recently gone through the terrible mess you are struggling with now. And some of them can give you tips about sharing child custody with a woman suffering from strong BPD traits. They therefore can supplement the advice you receive here on the TAM forum.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Red you have to get a handle on this situation. I can imagine what a nightmare it is given your past, your hope for this relationship and the complexity of the situation. 

However, the real issue is that one person is destroying the innocent lives of three very vulnerable children and terrorizing a good man.

The monkey is running the zoo. Who the bleep is in charge here?? Who is the adult? Three people are too small, one too crazy and one is shell shocked. 

I vote for the shell shocked one as the likely canidate to take the helm. Snap out of it and get a grip. Calm down and make plans and execute them.

First of all, document everything. If possible, put in a nanny cam, the rationale being that given her behavior, you fear for the kids. Under no circumstances can she find out. So you have to decide the risks.

You will also have evidence of her tirades. I am not sure of the legalities but if nanny cams are legal if abuse is suspected I cannot see why a parent cam would be illegal. Find out.

Read up on personality disorders and see if she fits any of them. Of course you cannot make a diagnosis but you can get an idea of what you are dealing with. 

You may find that the problem is intractable and the best course of action is to get her treatment and if she resist, get legal custody of your kids and leave her. 

Do you know anything about her past from family and friends? Has she been like this before but hid it from you when you first met. 

You have to take charge - the time for action is now - she seems to be getting crazier.


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## redstapler1 (May 28, 2012)

It's been a while since I've posted. I moved jobs and lost my password but have figured out how to log back in finally.

There's so much to say but unfortunately I am still with this woman. I will write more information later but the control (or Borderline tendancies) have gotten worse. 

Out of fear, I've eliminated my family, friends and social life. I just don't want to deal with the anger and rage that occurs because of it. But in the process of protecting her values, I've destroyed others. I need to fix it now, as best as I can.

Recently, my mother and her had a confrontation and it ended with yelling on my fiance's part saying "F you". My mom said I need to take my balls back because she's crazy. She also said that at that instant, she saw the rage and feared for our kids lives. 

More recently, she blew up at her ex while on the driveway of our neighborhood. She got out of her van (parked in the middle of the street and with my 5yr old daughter still in the back) and went ballistic, saying that she was going to kill him, banging on his car door / windows (while his girlfriend and kids were in the car witnessing that) and leaving me to hold her back because she was going to get physical. Her ex called the cops.

But in both situations, I feel forced to defend her because I fear her rage if I don't. Anyways, I just wanted to reconnect with everyone here and say that I'm going to a lawyer in early August and planning on leaving. It needs to be done quickly and efficiently - giving her no time to react. I feel lousy doing it, because of few positive relationships that have formed over the years but I feel helpless every day.

She's also brought up wanting to get married - now is the time to leave. I just hope I can actually do it now...


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

redstapler1 said:


> I'm going to a lawyer in early August and planning on leaving. It needs to be done quickly and efficiently.


Red, thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm sorry to hear that you are still living with your GF but am encouraged by your plan to leave soon. At this point, you should be documenting her dysfunctional behavior -- so as to best position yourself for the fight over custody of the child you two had together. 

I suggest, for example, that you tell your lawyer about the police report that her Ex filed against her that day she was assaulting his car (with his family inside). I also suggest you carry a VAR in your pocket at all times when around her so as to record all outbursts, especially those in front of the children. Your objective, IMO, should be to accumulate enough evidence of her anger outbursts and instability that -- when you seek child custody in court -- the judge will have sufficient reason to order her to be evaluated by a psychologist.

I agree with you that you should not show your cards in advance. The day of leaving should come as a total surprise and, if she is there while you move out, it is important to have witnesses around. If your GF has strong BPD traits, her greatest fear is abandonment and you cannot predict what her reaction will be when she realizes that it has occurred. 

Because BPDers typically will split a person black in such circumstances, you likely can expect her to become extremely vindictive and abusive if she has strong BPD traits. I suggest that you supplement this TAM forum with the "Leaving" and "Parenting after the Split" message boards at BPDfamily.com. I wish you and your family the best.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Interesting that ou came back to TAM,


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## Romantic30064 (Jul 29, 2013)

I will say that even though you worry about your future, your children's future and the like... leaving is the best and ONLY option. 

I am a (now grown) child of a relationship like this, it is best to remove the children from this situation. My mother is just like the examples given of your partner, almost identical. 

I would beg my father to divorce my mother, from around age 7-13, at age 13 when I was caring for my newest sister (a infant) and middle sister, while trying to keep the house when I wasn't in school. My father worked hard and long hours to keep the money coming in. There were times, at home, I would be yelled out, and witness my mother throwing furniture (not at me, but in the same room because of 'my actions') and in the end it was because I was doing the dishes or sweeping the floor or feeding my sisters. She would regrade and tear down the image I have of my father, saying that he was a lier, a cheater, a worthless S.O.B. And only until age 13 when I would go with my middle sister to her friends house, did I see what a real mother was suppose to be like. What a calm and happy home was like. I quickly explained to my father what I see and that I was unhappy with his choices. (a 13yr old telling her father in a straight and mature fashion that she was upset with his choices might have been the turning point for him.) 

Red, it may not be easy for you to make this decision and you are starting to really believe that you are at fault, but it isn't you. At the very least, keep telling your self that it will get worse and that you have to get the children out of there before it does more psychological damage. 

Now, as an adult with my own daughter, I am still effected by someone raising their voice or getting angry, even if it isn't my fault. I have been 'relieved' from a job before because during a company meeting the owner of the company was upset about sales numbers (I am his assistant, sales isn't even close to my department) and I broke down crying. 
These small things in my childhood are a major issue for me as an adult and at times I get emotionally upset for no real reason.

So, in any case, think about the children. Everyone says that a child needs their mother (my fathers words for years), but they are wrong. A child needs a stable and strong parent. My father raised 3 girls on his own and I commend him every day for giving my younger sisters the childhood I couldn't have. They are well rounded and more emotionally stable then I will ever be. And in that, my father succeeded. 

I hope that you can find the strength to stand up and take the uphill battle to getting all the children away from a situation like that.


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