# Can women be "nice girls"?



## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

After reading the synopsis, I decided to buy NMMNG for my husband. He was very resistant to reading it and asked me several times if I'd prefer if he was a bad guy instead.

Fast forwarding a bit, I decided to read it myself to learn how to better approach the problem. To my surprise, I identified many of the traits that Nice Guys have in me. 

My questions to you are:
Can women be in fact "nice girls"? 
Have you encountered any? If so, how to you perceive and deal with them?

Thank you in advance for you time and you input.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Memento said:


> After reading the synopsis, I decided to buy NMMNG for my husband. He was very resistant to reading it and asked me several times if I'd prefer if he was a bad guy instead.
> 
> Fast forwarding a bit, I decided to read it myself to learn how to better approach the problem. To my surprise, I identified many of the traits that Nice Guys have in me.
> 
> ...


My wife was a "Nice Girl" in the extreme. She had fantastic qualities, they are why I kept her by my side for over 40 years. But she also had a deeply dark side which eventually brought our marriage down.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Sure they can.

I have a female friend, married, who is about as "nice" as you can get. She takes verbal abuse from her husband, he treats her with disrespect yet the more he does this, the more she tries by doing more for him, working more hours and providing sex for him whenever he wants.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

AFEH said:


> My wife was a "Nice Girl" in the extreme. She had fantastic qualities, they are why I kept her by my side for over 40 years. But she also had a deeply dark side which eventually brought our marriage down.


Interesting! How would you describe that dark side? What made you walk away?


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> Sure they can.
> 
> I have a female friend, married, who is about as "nice" as you can get. She takes verbal abuse from her husband, he treats her with disrespect yet the more he does this, the more she tries by doing more for him, working more hours and providing sex for him whenever he wants.


Do you think that has to do with her early life experiences? 
I often see that the genesis for this type of behavior is in their childhood. People develop these mechanisms has a way of coping with whatever is wrong emotionally.


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## underwater2010 (Jun 27, 2012)

I was the "Nice Girl"....never wanted to rock the boat. That also made me kind of selfish. No anymore. Gladly the affair fixed it. I am still nice, but I also let people know when they are in the wrong. I do not say yes to everything and expect as much as I give.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

underwater2010 said:


> I was the "Nice Girl"....never wanted to rock the boat. That also made me kind of selfish. No anymore. Gladly the affair fixed it. I am still nice, but I also let people know when they are in the wrong. I do not say yes to everything and expect as much as I give.


I felt similar. Made me completely miserable.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

One of my best GF's would be considered a NICE LADY by all... she is helpful, considerate, she gives you her time, praises people... but the dark side to her is this... when you cross her, if she gets upset... the wall goes up...she is "passive aggressive"... when we had a falling out -due to something stupid I said in a moment...in order for her to not throw me away....I needed to confront her & us talk it out -deeply - to move on with our friendship. 

She is the type that will seeth inside ....and try to numb herself against any hurt ...the other person blackened in her view from then on...

She will call me & I get to hear how upset she is over something someone did, a family member, etc...but then when she is around them at a future event.... she puts on a pretty face....as to "get along".... Some of these people may feel like she has made up after the fact. But this could not be true at all - she carries it! 

It's the same dynamic in No More Mr Nice Guy... They feel their value is to Be nice, so that everyone will like them. But do they really know them? These things have a way of coming back to haunt you -when you are not being your authentic self before others...that includes being assertive....in the face of hurt, standing up for your own needs....and well.. you might need to be a Bi*ch on occasion (not literally)... but stand your own ground......if you feel you are justified in that situation anyway. 


This is the equivalent for women >>

Why Men Love *****es: From Doormat to Dreamgirl - A Woman's Guide to Holding Her Own in a Relationship:


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

is this a joke?

there are plenty of good "nice" women out there.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

underwater2010 said:


> I do not say yes to everything and expect as much as I give.


This would be a great book for anyone who struggles here >>>

 Boundaries: When to Say YES, When to Say NO, To Take Control of Your Life 



> Having clear boundaries is essential to a healthy, balanced lifestyle.
> 
> A boundary is a personal property line that marks those things for which we are responsible. In other words, boundaries define who we are and who we are not. Boundaries impact all areas of our lives: *Physical boundaries* help us determine who may touch us and under what circumstances -- *Mental boundaries* give us the freedom to have our own thoughts and opinions -- *Emotional boundaries* help us to deal with our own emotions and disengage from the harmful, manipulative emotions of others -- *Spiritual boundaries* help us to distinguish God's will from our own and give us renewed awe for our Creator --
> 
> ...


This book is written by Christian authors... but one does not have to be to enjoy it's message... it is one of my all time favorites.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> One of my best GF's would be considered a NICE LADY by all... she is helpful, considerate, she gives you her time, praises people... but the dark side to her is this... when you cross her, if she gets upset... the wall goes up...she is "passive aggressive"... when we had a falling out -due to something stupid I said in a moment...in order for her to not throw me away....I needed to confront her & us talk it out -deeply - to move on with our friendship.
> 
> She is the type that will seeth inside ....and try to numb herself against any hurt ...the other person blackened in her view from then on...
> 
> ...



I relate to what you wrote. The way you described your friend, could have also been used to describe me.
Ironically, I did noticed whenever, I put my fake smile on, people just didn't find me desirable at all.When I was my true self,it had the opposite effect. Unfortunately for me, she never staid long 
I have been making some progress,but some times it is so hard!!

Thank you for the book! Ill look for it


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

I think nice people in general are hard to find, but my wife is a nice wonderful woman. She is so good, pure, good nature there is not an ounce of hate or anger in her. She likes helping others stuff like that and is a very happy caring considerate person. She is not passive aggressive or anything like that, she is one of the few people I've met in my life other than my mother who is genuinely an all around good person. I have seen her when she is angry and at her worst from sadness over say the death of a loved one and i have never seen her spew hate out of her mouth or wish ill intentions on anyone. 

Quite odd to me at times how when angry she has never had even close to the thoughts i have had or folk i know have had.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

Goldmember357 said:


> I think nice people in general are hard to find, but my wife is a nice wonderful woman. She is so good, pure, good nature there is not an ounce of hate or anger in her. She likes helping others stuff like that and is a very happy caring considerate person. She is not passive aggressive or anything like that, she is one of the few people I've met in my life other than my mother who is genuinely an all around good person. I have seen her when she is angry and at her worst from sadness over say the death of a loved one and i have never seen her spew hate out of her mouth or wish ill intentions on anyone.
> 
> Quite odd to me at times how when angry she has never had even close to the thoughts i have had or folk i know have had.



I think you are missing the point here. I am not talking about good people, but "nice" like Dr. Glover describes it.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

I think I was too 'nice' with my ex
It's not actually my natural state but I was much younger when I met him and thought keeping the peace was the way to go
I'm far more assertive now


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

Dollystanford said:


> I think I was too 'nice' with my ex
> It's not actually my natural state but I was much younger when I met him and thought keeping the peace was the way to go
> I'm far more assertive now


Good for you!  I definitely put up with a lot of crap in the past... I was young and naive.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

i think nice people in general are hard to find, but my wife is a nice wonderful woman. She is so good, pure, good nature there is not an ounce of hate or anger in her. She likes helping others stuff like that and is a very happy caring considerate person. She is not passive aggressive or anything like that, she is one of the few people I've met in my life other than my mother who is genuinely a all around good person.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> Sure they can.
> 
> I have a female friend, married, who is about as "nice" as you can get. She takes verbal abuse from her husband, he treats her with disrespect yet the more he does this, the more she tries by doing more for him, working more hours and providing sex for him whenever he wants.


She sounds like a codependent.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

My wife is a "nice girl". However, I value that in her and try not to abuse her niceness. I'm not always successful because I have a dark side but I REALLY try to keep that in check. I like her niceness and try to enjoy it and keep others from abusing that side of her. It's not necessarily a bad thing unless someone is taking advantage.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Memento said:


> Interesting! How would you describe that dark side? What made you walk away?


It’s very much as SimplyAmorous describes.

You think you know them and to a certain extent you do. But they keep a lot hidden. They are basically two faced, deceitful in order to keep up a facade of being Nice.

Their Nice Persona, the face of Niceness they put out to the world is one of the most important values for them and one which they’ll never compromise under any circumstances.

For example, my wife came with me to start a new life in a new country even though she didn’t want to. She came because she didn’t want to look “Not Nice” in my eyes and the eyes of other people. Whereas we’d have really appreciated her honesty, not her deceit.

Her deceit was her betrayal. And yet still she couldn’t be up front with me, I only discovered this stuff because she told somebody else.

It’s difficult really to describe. In essence they tell one person one thing and others other things about the same subject, to all the while look like the Nice Person. It seems at times that they are so two faced and deceitful that they quite literally delude themselves to what the actual truth is.

Again I will balance the above that in many ways my wife was a very wonderful person. My family loved her to bits, adored her, there was never an argument anywhere at any time with them. She was an excellent mother and both our sons love and adore her as well.

So it’s by no means all bad. I just wish she’d have been more up front and assertive. Still a man can’t have everything.


I walked away because of her passive aggression. Well I ended up running away, I'd just had enough and it's the only way I could protect myself from her. Fight or fly sort of thing and she's small and I'm big so I ran.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

AFEH said:


> It’s very much as SimplyAmorous describes.
> 
> You think you know them and to a certain extent you do. But they keep a lot hidden. They are basically two faced, deceitful in order to keep up a facade of being Nice.
> 
> ...



I don't think its deceit per se. I don't believe the dishonesty is intentional. But by not being honest about ourselves and our feelings, we end up being perceived that way. But I understand what you are saying.

I was also, usually, nice... too nice. But when couldn't take it anymore I was the last person you would want to be with. I was passive aggressive and at times, aggressive.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

My wife is the most genuine, nicest, sweetest woman I have ever met in my entire life. She is veritable ball of sunshine. I love her for it, and wouldn't change that for the world.

*Edit*: Never mind. I see you aren't talking about genuinely nice people, bit a "nice guy" facade.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

sandc said:


> My wife is a "nice girl". However, I value that in her and try not to abuse her niceness. I'm not always successful because I have a dark side but I REALLY try to keep that in check. I like her niceness and try to enjoy it and keep others from abusing that side of her. It's not necessarily a bad thing unless someone is taking advantage.


We take it upon ourselves to be fix whatever is wrong with peoples lives and forget to have the same proactive energy when it comes to our own. I looked for other peoples validation because I didn't find myself worthy of much. It was easier to focus on something else. 
I have learned that some people tend to take advantage of that. But I also find myself responsible, for putting me in that position. Regardless, this long and hard lesson has thought me to put myself first.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> My wife is the most genuine, nicest, sweetest woman I have ever met in my entire life. She is veritable ball of sunshine. I love her for it, and wouldn't change that for the world.
> 
> *Edit*: Never mind. I see you aren't talking about genuinely nice people, bit a "nice guy" facade.


That is correct.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Memento said:


> We take it upon ourselves to be fix whatever is wrong with peoples lives and forget to have the same proactive energy when it comes to our own. I looked for other peoples validation because I didn't find myself worthy of much. It was easier to focus on something else.
> I have learned that some people tend to take advantage of that. But I also find myself responsible, for putting me in that position. Regardless, this long and hard lesson has thought me to put myself first.


yeah, and that's just not who we are. We haven't had to face the crises and hurts that many have here though. My wife and I still put the other first. It's who we are.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

I used to be doormat girl.now I'm just nice girl.I like myself better that way.Nice but not a doormat


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

sandc said:


> yeah, and that's just not who we are. We haven't had to face the crises and hurts that many have here though. My wife and I still put the other first. It's who we are.



That's the way it should always be!


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

I am a "nice" girl. And that has lead to me being taken advantage of in past relationships with men and with family. I've began establishing healthy boundaries for myself, and REFUSE to ever be that person again. NOPE, not going to happen any more. You want to take advantage of someone sir? Go find some other chick, pound pavement, pal. I like having a spine now.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I actually believe the "nice girl" facade is far, far more prevalent among women than it is men. Women, at least in this nation, are socially conditioned to be "nice". An assertive woman is basically considered a b*tch, and that comes with a whole host of other stigmas. There are likely countless millions of women out there who are pretending to be much nicer than they really are. And perhaps this helps account for some of the pettiness that is associated with women. If you're spending your life sitting on a bunch of emotion, you are more likely to make a huge deal out of a relatively small, fixable matter.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I used to be doormat girl.now I'm just nice girl.I like myself better that way.Nice but not a doormat


Dont worry, you were not the only one  I know this is a meager consolation. However, I found comfort in knowing I could change. And I did.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I am a "nice" girl. And that has lead to me being taken advantage of in past relationships with men and with family. I've began establishing healthy boundaries for myself, and REFUSE to ever be that person again. NOPE, not going to happen any more. You want to take advantage of someone sir? Go find some other chick, pound pavement, pal. I like having a spine now.


Well done for taking control of your life!!


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I actually believe the "nice girl" facade is far, far more prevalent among women than it is men. Women, at least in this nation, are socially conditioned to be "nice". An assertive woman is basically considered a b*tch, and that comes with a whole host of other stigmas. There are likely countless millions of women out there who are pretending to be much nicer than they really are. And perhaps this helps account for some of the pettiness that is associated with women. If you're spending your life sitting on a bunch of emotion, you are more likely to make a huge deal out of a relatively small, fixable matter.


That is my perception as well. But whereas in men its a relatively new situation, it seems it has always been a problem for women.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Memento said:


> I relate to what you wrote. The way you described your friend, could have also been used to describe me.
> Ironically, I did noticed whenever, I put my fake smile on, people just didn't find me desirable at all.When I was my true self,it had the opposite effect. Unfortunately for me, she never staid long
> I have been making some progress,but some times it is so hard!!


Have you ever taken a temperament Test - My friend is an ISFJ  




> There are 2 different kinds of tests .....
> 
> * "Sanguine" - "Choleric" - "Melancholy" - "Phlegmatic" Tests *
> 
> ...






sandc said:


> My wife is a "nice girl". However, I value that in her and try not to abuse her niceness. I'm not always successful because I have a dark side but I REALLY try to keep that in check. I like her niceness and try to enjoy it and keep others from abusing that side of her. It's not necessarily a bad thing unless someone is taking advantage.


I had to laugh at this comment SandC, I am the same way as YOU...I'm the one with the wicked / Brash temperament -if I get in a fowl mood...and my husband is the same way as your wife ! 

Ya know I have had near arguments with the man to *BE MORE SELFISH*...who does this in marriage, it's insanity....... he will not put himself before our kids for anything....he won't eat the last cookie, he feels like he is taking food out of their mouths... it does seem to give him enjoyment to bless other people though... We have fun with it, I make sure he is happy & gets his needs met...I'll threaten to eat the cookie ~ then he'll take it. 

I will agree, these types really DO make it too easy to take advantage of them....one has to be intune with how they are... look for the cues, cause they do NOT like to burden anyone. This doesn't mean they don't have needs - however.


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I used to be doormat girl.now I'm just nice girl.I like myself better that way.Nice but not a doormat


I think this is the whole point.

There is nothing wrong with being nice, I believe I am a nice man, but I don't take undue crap from people.

I did start the book NMMNG but never got beyond the first few chapters as I felt it had no relevance to me.

From what I did read I think the archetypical 'nice guy' of the book (and I suppose by extension 'nice girl') is actually manipulatively nice. They are trying to engineer an outcome in life with their faux niceness.

They then get passive aggresive when the desired outcome doesn't materialise.

You can be nice, just don't be a doormat about it as SB says.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

The notion that nice guy or nice girl equals non attractive doormat is overplayed on TAM. On the same notion a maniacally egocentric jerk can be very unattractive. Somewhere in the middle of simply acting like an adult, where one is confident but yet caring for those around you is what makes one attractive. But, I'm sure the hyperbolic views of some would not agree and that is Ok.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

jaquen said:


> I actually believe the "nice girl" facade is far, far more prevalent among women than it is men.


Same here. I'm not sure why the men's version has come to the forefront lately but I have always observed this more often in women. Being a "pleaser" is a well established attachment type and personality style. The problem with all these "nice" people, women and men, is that they are not really all that nice. They do things with certain expectations that are not openly communicated and when they don't get the desired result (which is almost always), their behavior can leave a lot to be desired.

When my wife and her mom fight, they often diss each other by saying "You're not nice" or "That's not nice". As I silently listen, I wonder to myself "Well duh, neither of you are really particularly nice in practice so what is the point of using this as a diss?" When my wife turns this on me, I just say "OK, sorry" because frankly, I'm not really all that concerned about whether or not someone judges me as nice or not and I have to admit that sometimes I'm not all that nice, depending on the circumstances. I always figured this was some kind of guy/girl translation thing


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Goldmember357 said:


> is this a joke?
> 
> there are plenty of good "nice" women out there.


You are missing the point.

There is always a lot of talk on here about men being "Mr. Nice Guy". It refers to some not so good traits in which a person is nice to the point of letting themself be stepped all over, etc.

The OP probably should have used "Ms. Nice Girl" to get the idea cross.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

There's a big difference in this issue though.

Men are generally "singular" in what attracts them. What I mean is we find a woman who has certain traits and that attracts us.

Women are generally more....hmmm...complex LOL...in what attracts them. Hence the constant confusion of "being a good guy, but not a nice guy". The closest thing to a simple explanation of what men need to be is Tim McGraw's "Real Good Man" song. THAT is what women want.

So a "nice" woman, will be a nice woman. She may be VERY nice, or only a little nice. She'll be judged on those qualities and her husband will accept her for what she is. A "nice" man may be very nice or a little nice, but his wife, after a few years will want him to be "nicer" or more "bad boy". Men need to keep it interesting for their women. Women are cats, men are dogs. Women like to play and have things mixed up, men want the same bed for 50 years.

So if a man (a decent man, not an abuser) marries a "nice" woman, it's because he likes a "nice" woman and always wants a "nice" woman. LOL.

PS pardon the generalizations. I usually don't like to speak in generalizations so please understand I recognize the faults and fallacies within generalizations before you crucify me. LOL


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'm more curious about what made you decide to buy your husband the book?

Have the two of you been able to have a conversation about your complicit duplicity on both parts?

Guess what I'm asking is if you were moved to make the purchase because the shine is coming off of your admiration for one another.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Dad&Hubby said:


> PS pardon the generalizations. I usually don't like to speak in generalizations so please understand I recognize the faults and fallacies within generalizations before you crucify me. LOL


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I had to laugh at this comment SandC, I am the same way as YOU...I'm the one with the wicked / Brash temperament -if I get in a fowl mood...and my husband is the same way as your wife !
> 
> Ya know I have had near arguments with the man to BE MORE SELFISH...who does this in marriage, it's insanity....... he will not put himself before our kids for anything....he won't eat the last cookie, he feels like he is taking food out of their mouths... it does seem to give him enjoyment to bless other people though... We have fun with it, I make sure he is happy & gets his needs met...I'll threaten to eat the cookie ~ then he'll take it.
> 
> I will agree, these types really DO make it too easy to take advantage of them....one has to be intune with how they are... look for the cues, cause they do NOT like to burden anyone. This doesn't mean they don't have needs - however.


Well, now you can laugh because I really misinterpreted this thread. My wife is the real deal. I think the only thing that prevents her from having a duplicitous nature about her niceness is that we talk, talk, and talk some more. Well, she does. I mostly listen and pipe in with little bits of wisdom here and there. 

And no, I could never be accused of being a Mr. Nice Guy. i know when my wife wants me to be selfish and take what I want.... and all that this implies.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

Deejo said:


> I'm more curious about what made you decide to buy your husband the book?
> 
> Have the two of you been able to have a conversation about your complicit duplicity on both parts?
> 
> Guess what I'm asking is if you were moved to make the purchase because the shine is coming off of your admiration for one another.


Have you ever heard the saying about what you most dislike in others is the shadow within yourself!? Well, that was our case. My husband and I react to things almost identically. Ironically, I realized I had the same "faults" after reading the book that was intended for him.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> You are missing the point.
> 
> There is always a lot of talk on here about men being "Mr. Nice Guy". It refers to some not so good traits in which a person is nice to the point of letting themself be stepped all over, etc.
> 
> The OP probably should have used "Ms. Nice Girl" to get the idea cross.


True! My mistake.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

drerio said:


> The notion that nice guy or nice girl equals non attractive doormat is overplayed on TAM. On the same notion a maniacally egocentric jerk can be very unattractive. Somewhere in the middle of simply acting like an adult, where one is confident but yet caring for those around you is what makes one attractive. But, I'm sure the hyperbolic views of some would not agree and that is Ok.



I believe that more than a question of attractiveness, it is a question of self respect and self worth or the lack of both. But I agree that the opposite spectrum is not attractive either.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Memento said:


> I believe that more than a question of attractiveness, it is a question of self respect and self worth or the lack of both. But I agree that the opposite spectrum is not attractive either.


So I am one to believe you can be a self respecting nice girl/guy. In fact I'm not so sure you can be genuinely nice to someone without first having self respect (confidence).


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Absolutely. Being a nice person isn't gender specific.

When people refer to "nice guys" on TAM, though, I always gain the impression that they're talking about potential doormats - people without personal boundaries who are taken advantage of. Again, these traits aren't gender specific.

Whilst I do believe that it's possible for people to be thoroughly nice people and still have strong, healthy boundaries, those with poor boundaries can be a nightmare to be around. They are often the victims in life who indulge in passive aggressive behaviour. You never know where you stand with them, because they're "too nice" to tell you if you've done something wrong. However, they're quick to solicit the sympathies of others by playing doormat / victim.

A nice person is a wonderful person to be around - unless they have poor boundaries!


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Absolutely. Being a nice person isn't gender specific.
> 
> When people refer to "nice guys" on TAM, though, I always gain the impression that they're talking about potential doormats - people without personal boundaries who are taken advantage of. Again, these traits aren't gender specific.
> 
> Whilst I do believe that it's possible for people to be thoroughly nice people and still have strong, healthy boundaries, those with poor boundaries can be a nightmare to be around. They are often the victims in life who indulge in passive aggressive behaviour. You never know where you stand with them, because they're "too nice" to tell you if you've done something wrong. However, they're quick to solicit the sympathies of others by playing doormat.


Exactly... So I for one would like to retire the nice guy/girl title for something more descriptive as is outlined by cosmos.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> When people refer to "nice guys" on TAM, though, I always gain the impression that they're talking about potential doormats - people without personal boundaries who are taken advantage of. Again, these traits aren't gender specific.


I think a lot of the time on TAM, nice is a code word for dysfunctional people pleasing


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## ATC529R (Oct 31, 2012)

yeah, they'e nice.......

till you piss them off!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

drerio said:


> Exactly... So I for one would like to retire the nice guy/girl title for something more descriptive as is outlined by cosmos.


Drerio, along with everyone else who knows him, I'd call my partner a "nice guy." He doesn't tie in with the problematic "nice guy" definition, though. He's kind, generous, honest and non-judgmental, but he has healthy boundaries / self-esteem and not the sort of person to be taken advantage of.

I think there's a big difference between a genuinely nice person and a person who adopts the facade of "nice person" in order to get by in life.

I agree with you that the definition needs some tweaking.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> I think a lot of the time on TAM, nice is a code word for dysfunctional people pleasing


In the same way "alpha" is code for conceded jerk.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> Drerio, along with everyone else who knows him, I'd call my partner a "nice guy." He doesn't tie in with the problematic "nice guy" definition, though. He's kind, generous, honest and non-judgmental, but he has healthy boundaries / self-esteem and not the sort of person to be taken advantage of.
> 
> I think there's a big difference between a genuinely nice person and a person who adopts the facade of "nice person" in order to get by in life.
> 
> I agree with you that the definition needs some tweaking.


Agree. You have my vote


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

For sure.

We just refer to them as doormats.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> For sure.
> 
> We just refer to them as doormats.


Good enough... And jerks as jerks. No need for code words, just call as you see it


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

sandc said:


> Well, now you can laugh because I really misinterpreted this thread. *My wife is the real deal*. I think the only thing that prevents her from having a duplicitous nature about her niceness is that we talk, talk, and talk some more. Well, she does. I mostly listen and pipe in with little bits of wisdom here and there.
> 
> And no, *I could never be accused of being a Mr. Nice Guy*. *i know when my wife wants me to be selfish and take what I want*.... and all that this implies.


I knew you was praising your wife - in all it's glory - I didn't misunderstand ~ not at all.  ~ I could just relate ! I'd say my husband is the real deal too......I could even say I take what I want too.. ha ha 

And like you SandC...I'd never be accused of being a doormat. 

The other day I was dealing with a Landman for a Pipeline on our property, I caught him stretching the truth - just a little too much for my comfort zone.... I called him back and gave him *my *terms... after I got off the phone - I asked my husband if I was too mean... he joked back I was like a







... and I added "with a dress". He was exaggerating of course! 
*I hope *!!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

drerio said:


> Good enough... And jerks as jerks. No need for code words, just call as you see it


So, we just start calling people that come here wounded by rejection, and/or betrayal, wondering why their spouse treats them like garbage ... doormats?

Or those looking to shore up boundaries, or express their dissatisfaction with their spouses behavior as, jerks?

Cool.

Let the healing begin! 

I do indeed understand that we are more often than not, talking, about and referring to distinct and definitive sets of behavior. I do however still struggle to understand why people would prefer openly derogatory references to people looking for support, rather than a less harsh term that outlines and defines an array of particular behaviors and characteristics.

Do you not like the words, or do you not like the message? I mean when someone says, "Nice Guys finish last." Do people really question the inference of that idiom, or what being a nice guy implies?

And yes, women can be 'Nice Guys', and 'Man Up'. I see 'Woman Up' in a very different context.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Deejo said:


> So, we just start calling people that come here wounded by rejection, and/or betrayal, wondering why their spouse treats them like garbage ... doormats?
> 
> Or those looking to shore up boundaries, or express their dissatisfaction with their spouses behavior as, jerks?
> 
> ...


Not what I meant, but I don't like notion of using the words nice guy = doormat in the same way I don't like alpha = jerk... It is too simplistic for me. Humans are way too complex to be reduced to code words. To clarify, I think one takes a situation and says what they mean. I think you could agree with that.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Just a point of clarification, I am not about calling people names nor am I about using code words for the same purpose. I think the word "Jerk" is an extreme as is "doormat", and I am not sure either one is helpful because few people statistically fit these extremes. I would prefer we take each situation and work at it from that point rather than assigning titles to every hurting soul that comes to TAM. In the same way we don't need to be telling every BS, that D is the only way. I hope this makes sense.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Deejo said:


> So, we just start calling people that come here wounded by rejection, and/or betrayal, wondering why their spouse treats them like garbage ... doormats?
> 
> Or those looking to shore up boundaries, or express their dissatisfaction with their spouses behavior as, jerks?
> being a nice guy implies?


This certainly isn't what I meant, Deejo. I believe that if someone is continually getting 'kicked' they need to perhaps examine how they're interacting with others rather than simply assuming that these things are happening to them because they're 'nice.'

Similarly, people who start erecting healthy boundaries are certainly not jerks.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> This certainly isn't what I meant, Deejo. I believe that if someone is continually getting 'kicked' they need to perhaps examine how they're interacting with others rather than simply assuming that these things are happening to them because they're 'nice.'
> 
> Similarly, people who start erecting healthy boundaries are certainly not jerks.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Do be aware that tongue was firmly planted in cheek with my post. 

I was a 'Nice Guy'. I know one when I see one, or see the words of one. I have a pretty good idea of how he behaves, and what he thinks. 

My bottom line for most folks suffering from low self-esteem, porous boundaries, covert contracts, or 'over-loving' their partner while minimizing their own needs is that they need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.

They need to make changes that they generally aren't going to feel good about, and more than likely, their partner is going to outright revolt, or go ballistic over. Especially if it directly impacts a dysfunctional status quo.

We teach people how to treat us. The learning curve for 're-teaching' them can be precipitous. But once you get there, you won't ever go back.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Mine is a nice girl but I prefer when shes a bad girl. I am reminded of Mae West saying "when I'm good I'm good but when I'm bad I'm better"!


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Do be aware that tongue was firmly planted in cheek with my post.
> 
> I was a 'Nice Guy'. I know one when I see one, or see the words of one. I have a pretty good idea of how he behaves, and what he thinks.
> 
> ...


This :iagree: well enough.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Stonewall said:


> Mine is a nice girl but I prefer when shes a bad girl. I am reminded of Mae West saying "when I'm good I'm good but when I'm bad I'm better"!


Those 2 faces of EVE...ehh Stonewall









We want our men to be Gentlemen too - but fire up the bedroom like a Bad Boy would..


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## This is me (May 4, 2011)

When I read NMMNG, I clearly saw a female I know in the traits described.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It's the people-pleasing, not wanting to rock the boat, desire to have everything peaceful, "can't we all just get along?, fear of conflict, giving-but-then-resenting, , refusing to say what you want but then getting angry when you don't get it - Nice Woman could encapsulate it.

It comes from fear that if anyone sees the real you, or God forbid, gets angry with you, they won't love you anymore. And it can also come from having no real power, only the power to covertly manipulate.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Lyris said:


> It's the people-pleasing, not wanting to rock the boat, desire to have everything peaceful, "can't we all just get along?, fear of conflict, giving-but-then-resenting, , refusing to say what you want but then getting angry when you don't get it - Nice Woman could encapsulate it.
> 
> It comes from fear that if anyone sees the real you, or God forbid, gets angry with you, they won't love you anymore. And it can also come from having no real power, only the power to covertly manipulate.


Thank you Lyris, I am glad someone finally articulated what I was thinking without any assumption of a title. So it is not that I am against any concept, I just don't like assigning titles to individuals who are far too complex for such simplicity.


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

drerio said:


> Just a point of clarification, I am not about calling people names nor am I about using code words for the same purpose. I think the word "Jerk" is an extreme as is "doormat", and I am not sure either one is helpful because few people statistically fit these extremes. I would prefer we take each situation and work at it from that point rather than assigning titles to every hurting soul that comes to TAM. In the same way we don't need to be telling every BS, that D is the only way. I hope this makes sense.



Hmm...I'm surprised this thread sparked a debate...and I'm trying to figure out how that happened (not that that's bad...just surprises me)

To me the "Nice Guy" LABEL as we use it in this forum...references a specific behavioral/personality pattern (in males)

And I think the best corollary in women would be the LABEL "doormat".

But the two aren't perfect equivalents...

_Doormat-ism_ in women (in my experience) always stems from low self-esteem/self-worth and a need for approval/positive attention from a guy that's been placed on a "mental pedestal"

And while this can cause "Nice Guy" syndrome in men...I think there can be a few other reasons for why it happens too

Regardless of the underlying cause, the result of Nice Guy and Doormat behavior is always the same: the person is shown a *LACK OF RESPECT* (and respect really is absolutely everything)

Regarding the value of labeling people. Admittedly it's inherently flawed and incomplete. As you said, people are very complex. 

So it's probably important to remind ourselves when using a LABEL that we're not actually labeling "the person"...we're really just labeling/pin-pointing the "self-destructive" behavior (or at least _the main_ bad behavior...most of us have more than one).

And for that purpose, I find labels succinct, expressive and quite useful (I also see them as constructive (or I wouldn't use them)...but of course, as with many things in life,_ it's all in how you say it_).

Last points for my already too long post: For me, the "Nice Guy" Label is not the same thing as being a nice guy/girl/person. 

Nice/good people are mentally balanced and content and their "goodness" flows forth from their positive internal state...moreover it is *GENUINE* 

(Genuineness---that's really the litmus test in evaluating the healthiness of all behaviors)

"Nice Guy" and "Doormat" behavior is *never genuine*.

It's never how people are "meant" to act.

And it's never how they really "want" to act deep down.

Their behavior is part of a "coping"/"survival" strategy, and has underlying roots of fear, shame, inadequacy, etc...

you know...those really ugly roots..

And those roots need healing/addressing before the behavior can really end for good

(Now your jerk/alpha thing gets into more complex/intriguing territory...as a general rule though...people who are truly at peace with themselves will_ always be a source a good _* BOTH for themselves and those around them* 

(and alas, these are rare people indeed)

ANYONE else, be they a : jerk, doormat or serial gossiper (even if it's just one of the labels they wear)...has something they need to work on within


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

On another forum I'm on it gets referred to as the Inner Good Girl. A part of who someone is, not their whole selves. 

And it always comes from fear of not being loved.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Lyris said:


> It's the people-pleasing, not wanting to rock the boat, desire to have everything peaceful, "can't we all just get along?, fear of conflict, giving-but-then-resenting, , refusing to say what you want but then getting angry when you don't get it - Nice Woman could encapsulate it.
> 
> It comes from fear that if anyone sees the real you, or God forbid, gets angry with you, they won't love you anymore. And it can also come from having no real power, only the power to covertly manipulate.


Very, very, well said.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

And also looking at the flip side of this, how is that men become enamoured of *****y / feisty / challenging women.

When I look at the messages between my fiance and his EA, she was not nice to him at all. With one exception, and that was the week that he was turning away from her, refusing to make a date with before he heard from me. she knew that he had a presentation on Monday and therefore sent him a good luck e-card. But that was it.

When he asked her out, she would say, I don't know when I am free, call me later. And before he met, she told him that she and a mutual friend were going to dinner for her b-day. (implicit message: you're not invited.)

He told me that she never came to his place until after she knew about me. And he could also cough up cash to pay taxi fare..... but wouldn't bother to wait with me at the bus stop (and I was paying my own bus fare).

I asked him what was going through his head. His attitude is that I seemed independent and refined. 

Now I am convinced to be a edgy and vulnerable is that way to go. Some people say that I shouldn't do this or that..... but he's still and even keener.......


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## in my tree (Jun 9, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> Hmm...I'm surprised this thread sparked a debate...and I'm trying to figure out how that happened (not that that's bad...just surprises me)
> 
> To me the "Nice Guy" LABEL as we use it in this forum...references a specific behavioral/personality pattern (in males)
> 
> ...



To say that nice people are nice because they just ARE that way and that "nice guys" and "doormats" are NEVER genuine is, to me, a very black and white way of thinking. People can be genuinely good hearted, caring and nice but if they are taken advantage of often or rarely appreciated then yes, other feelings of needing approval/acceptance and even fear can surface. That does not necessarily indicate that they have deeper "ugly roots". EVERYONE wants love and approval (whether they admit it or not), imo. My own mother tried to get my father's approval for years and years and she finely gave up. She was genuinely a nice person. She was a giver and it gave her pleasure to make people happy. However the difference with my father was that those other people that she gave to sometimes showed appreciation or gave back to her. He, on the other hand, criticized, ridiculed and abused her. She finally got smart, divorced him and remained a nice woman. Some here would have called her a doormat. She even called herself a "mouse" at times. Thank goodness she listened to her own musings when she became mentally/emotionally stronger.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I sometimes wonder if because I came from a large family, that I was taught to put up with more...... the don't mind me syndrome.


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## Dollystanford (Mar 14, 2012)

Lyris said:


> It's the people-pleasing, not wanting to rock the boat, desire to have everything peaceful, "can't we all just get along?, fear of conflict, giving-but-then-resenting, , refusing to say what you want but then getting angry when you don't get it - Nice Woman could encapsulate it.
> 
> It comes from fear that if anyone sees the real you, or God forbid, gets angry with you, they won't love you anymore. And it can also come from having no real power, only the power to covertly manipulate.


:allhail:

this is EXACTLY it


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

My mum was a nice girl/woman in every way, and she paid for it ....... dearly.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

abitlost said:


> My mum was a nice girl/woman in every way, and she paid for it ....... dearly.


how so?


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## TiggyBlue (Jul 29, 2012)

My dad was bi-polar,narcissistic and suicidal (also spent most of income on pot). My mum is loyal (to a fault) and gave up her buisness, her identity and her self respect to trying to 'save' him.

When he commited suicide (after a couple attempts and many threats) my mum had absolutely no confidence (was drained out of her), no buisness or job, diagnosed with ptsd, in threat of losing the house and in £40.000 in debt (dad spent it all but she never said NO).

My mum is the loyalist, most giving person you can imagine and those qualities were used against her in the most manipulative way by my dad, and by a lot of the rest of my family too.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

abitlost said:


> My dad was bi-polar,narcissistic and suicidal (also spent most of income on pot). My mum is loyal (to a fault) and gave up her buisness, her identity and her self respect to trying to 'save' him.
> 
> When he commited suicide (after a couple attempts and many threats) my mum had absolutely no confidence (was drained out of her), no buisness or job, diagnosed with ptsd, in threat of losing the house and in £40.000 in debt (dad spent it all but she never said NO).
> 
> My mum is the loyalist, most giving person you can imagine and those qualities were used against her in the most manipulative way by my dad, and by a lot of the rest of my family too.



I am sorry that you had to go through those events!
My mom sounds a lot like yours. Unfortunately, it's a somewhat common story


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

From my perspective and experience, children from broken homes tend to create these mechanisms in order to cope with what they did not receive at home. These traits frequently follow them into adulthood. 

It is sad that so many children live in dysfunctional homes. It is heartbreaking that the people that should love you the most are, usually, the one that can hurt you the most. I vowed to break this vicious cycle. I refuse to be either an abuser or a victim.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

This might catch me a ton of flack, but here goes:

I'm beginning to think that a lot of "Mr. Nice Guys" are just dudes who are super sh*tty in the sack. 

Because, and let's be honest here; how many women are going to become unattracted to a man who is killing it in the bedroom, no matter how "nice" he is in real life?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Lyris said:


> It's the people-pleasing, not wanting to rock the boat, desire to have everything peaceful, "can't we all just get along?, fear of conflict, giving-but-then-resenting, , refusing to say what you want but then getting angry when you don't get it - Nice Woman could encapsulate it.
> 
> It comes from fear that if anyone sees the real you, or God forbid, gets angry with you, they won't love you anymore. And it can also come from having no real power, only the power to covertly manipulate.


:iagree:

A like wasn't enough, Lyris.

My second to eldest sister is a Nice Girl, and she is all of the above. The trouble is that when she gets hacked off and angry at someone for not reading her mind, she becomes passive aggressive then silently withdraws. Because she's a Nice Girl, other family members become protective and tend to automatically assume that its the other person who is at fault. In my family it has caused some pretty sad rifts, but few recognize the source.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This might catch me a ton of flack, but here goes:
> 
> I'm beginning to think that a lot of "Mr. Nice Guys" are just dudes who are super sh*tty in the sack.
> 
> Because, and let's be honest here; how many women are going to become unattracted to a man who is killing it in the bedroom, no matter how "nice" he is in real life?


But is this not because Mr Nice Guy is a little _too _focused on pleasing rather than being pleased? A caring, considerate lover is one thing, but one who makes it all about you is another.


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This might catch me a ton of flack, but here goes:
> 
> I'm beginning to think that a lot of "Mr. Nice Guys" are just dudes who are super sh*tty in the sack.
> 
> Because, and let's be honest here; how many women are going to become unattracted to a man who is killing it in the bedroom, no matter how "nice" he is in real life?


:lol:
I don't know about the majority but I know one that isn't! 
My problem with my husband has to do with his poor boundaries when it comes to his ex wife.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Memento said:


> :lol:
> I don't know about the majority but I know one that isn't!
> My problem with my husband has to do with his poor boundaries when it comes to his ex wife.


Are you losing sexual attractions to him, even in the presence of those problems?


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## Memento (Aug 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Are you losing sexual attractions to him, even in the presence of those problems?


Yes and no. I have not lost my SD for him but I did resent him for feeling "troubled" by another woman.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Memento said:


> Yes and no. I have not lost my SD for him but I did resent him for feeling "troubled" by another woman.


Which makes perfect sense to me. You resent him, but he still gets your juices flowing.

After spending enough time on here, and really listening to what the women are saying, I'm really second guessing a lot of sex related assumptions:

*Men are visual, and women are emotional* - I've observed in real life, and TAM women have reminded me, that women can be just as visually driven as men. 

*Men need sex, and women need security *- Yes there are some proven differences in how the sexes generally prioritize sex, but I'm finding that women, on the whole, are a lot more sexual than is typically acknowledged.

*She stopped being attracted to me because I'm too nice* - For all the problems that being "too" nice can bring, I am beginning to at least consider that many of the guys who think their wives aren't shagging them because they are "too nice" might just not have the bedroom mojo needed to keep their woman coming back for more, and maybe never did to begin with.


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## DangerousCurves (Jul 18, 2012)

Memento said:


> My questions to you are:
> Can women be in fact "nice girls"?


Yes. They are called "doormats". I should know... I was one of them.


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## DangerousCurves (Jul 18, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is the equivalent for women >>
> 
> Why Men Love *****es: From Doormat to Dreamgirl - A Woman's Guide to Holding Her Own in a Relationship:


I love this book and highly recommend it.


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## wonder (Jun 30, 2008)

I was a "nice girl" and it bit me in the @ss. I lost one of the 2 most important people in my life because when I was trying to keep the status quo and make everyone happy, I ignored his wants and needs. Never again. People say I've become quite the b!tch, I say it's because I just don't care about most things anymore, especially what people think. I'm not happy yet, but I am content with how my life has been developing in the past year.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

jaquen said:


> This might catch me a ton of flack, but here goes:
> 
> I'm beginning to think that a lot of "Mr. Nice Guys" are just dudes who are super sh*tty in the sack.
> 
> Because, and let's be honest here; how many women are going to become unattracted to a man who is killing it in the bedroom, no matter how "nice" he is in real life?












Ah what the hell do I know ... you may be onto something. Something dirty ...


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## Jack I (Nov 23, 2012)

Memento said:


> After reading the synopsis, I decided to buy NMMNG for my husband. He was very resistant to reading it and asked me several times if I'd prefer if he was a bad guy instead.


Why exactly did you want your husband to read the book?What behaviors was he displaying?Was he displaying them before you read the book?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Deejo said:


> Ah what the hell do I know ... you may be onto something. Something dirty ...


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Love me some Deejo.

In a totally dirty, O RLY kinda way.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Those 2 faces of EVE...ehh Stonewall
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know it. Make things a little dangerous!!!!!


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I knew you was praising your wife - in all it's glory - I didn't misunderstand ~ not at all.  ~ I could just relate ! I'd say my husband is the real deal too......I could even say I take what I want too.. ha ha
> 
> And like you SandC...I'd never be accused of being a doormat.
> 
> ...


You're a cool chick.


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