# You never....



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm wondering, did they go grab the girls and take them aside in fifth grade and teach them a slightly different version of the definition "never"?

When I learned about the use of that word, it meant without exception. You either use it when there is absolutely no exceptions, or you preface it with an exhaustive list of "except for."

If not, how do you explain the "you never ______" phrase so many women will use? What they mean is that "I'm frustrated and resentful that you're not doing _____ more often." Instead of saying that, they'll use the "you never _____" sentence and it completely derails the conversation. Why? Because it's usually not true. The conversation goes from what is frustrating her to how she's making false, negative statements about me.

It used to really piss me off. After all, I took it as minimizing what I did and exaggerating her case to paint me in a bad light. I don't get pissed off anymore, but I sure do call my wife on it. It took a while to get through to her that the major hangup was those specific words, and that she is being rather inexact when she uses them.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Never and always are lies. I can't think of anything that never or always happens. The world is imperfect. It's perspective and pain that make those words come out in a sentence. If we think differently, we can change our perspective and reduce our emotional reactions.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

I don't think it's a female thing. My husband uses them often., I call him on it now, and he's stopped for the most part.


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

After more than enough years of counseling after my first marriage I leaned that "I'm feeling this way" comes across much better than attacking someone with, "You never do this or that"

I know it sounds all hokey when in counseling, we're told to express how we feel rather than attacking the other with, "You always" and "You nevers"

Wasn't the communication that ended us..but the fact that he couldn't keep his pants on..lol!!

My point is, nothing is ever accomplished by attacking the other with, "You never.." or "You always.." and I've learned to use constructive arguing in my current marriage, although he tends to attack with words often. I've also learned to walk away when he gets mouthy, and it sometimes makes him angrier because I refuse to argue after a certain point.

He can sit in his own "anger" if he wants to. I just tell him that I love him..argument's over for me..and I walk away from it. 

He's one that likes to "pick" an argument now and then. Not me. I'll change the subject to something else like, "So...how was your day" or even, "So..what's the weather supposed to be like tomorrow??"

He knows the conversation is over and he's not going to get a rise out of me.


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

My husband used to give the you always/never crap. After counseling he rarely does it. I don't think it is a gender specific thing.

Why do people think only women do this?


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

I think it's just a psychological thing in our head. Due to frustration, I think we process things as all or none, because that's what we feel, when reality may be.."you rarely"

I used to do these words also. A relationship book taught me otherwise.

Now, when I hear these words, I always respond first by saying..."well, it's more like I rarely do, not never, but I can understand where your frustration may be coming from..."

Or sometimes, I treat it like a shat test, depending upon the context..

"Fraking rights I always do! I mean, everyone's doing it! Time for you to get on the bandwagon! I mean, who really wants to be an independent thinker anyways!"

Or some junk like that.

However, one ex marriage later and some harsh life lessons does get you a smudge of wisdom that came at a high price...


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## texasoutlaw82 (Dec 27, 2013)

I was bombarded with constant you nevers or you always do....

I made it a point to explain it to her... after about the 10th time i gave up.

I am working on raising my daughter to stay away from absolutes. She now catches herself and I just smile.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

TAM never has a thread that doesn't make generalities on the sexes


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Never say Never


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

DoF said:


> Never say Never


you broke your own rule, twice


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

This is a person thing, rather than a woman thing. 

My ex-husband was a "you never" and "you always" guy. Even after many months of MC, he still used those phrases habitually. He seemed to logically grasp that it wasn't a helpful way to communicate. But I think he'd become so ingrained in the practice of blaming me for everything that he couldn't really stop saying it. Or believing it. His perception of the world in general is very filled with absolutes. He's the sort of person for whom things are generally very much either pitch black or stark white.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> Never and always are lies. I can't think of anything that never or always happens. The world is imperfect.


Hmmm, there are some I can think of.

I never want to hold her purse for her. I never want to drive her minivan.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Giro flee said:


> Why do people think only women do this?


Just my personal experience. 

Clearly I was wrong on it being gender specific.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

It's not a gender thing. It's just a 'some people' thing. 

I correct my daughter on that one - and also using 'literally'. Now she rolls her eyes and corrects friends who use that.


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## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

Almostrecovered said:


> you broke your own rule, twice


No other way to go about it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Giro flee said:


> My husband used to give the you always/never crap. After counseling he rarely does it. I don't think it is a gender specific thing.
> 
> Why do people think only women do this?


I did it myself. I have to carefully choose not to say those words. I still sometimes say or type them. I do my best.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Maybe at the same time they take the boys out of class in grade 5 and teach them to say "I always". All men must do this because my ex used too.

I was bed ridden, vomiting 24/7 while pregnant and asked for his help by cleaning the bathrooms. His response "I always" clean the bathrooms, oh OK if you think doing them 4 times in 20 years is always.

Or when I asked for some regular time out from 24/7 housekeeping, parenting etc, could he take the kids for a few hours on Saturday mornings so I could have some me time. He did it 3 times over 4 years and when I finally got pissed with him he said "I always take the kids out on Saturday mornings."

And on and on the egs could go.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

2ntnuf said:


> I did it myself. I have to carefully choose not to say those words. I still sometimes say or type them. I do my best.


Where did the habit originate? Something that a parent used and you copied?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> I'm wondering, did they go grab the girls and take them aside in fifth grade and teach them a slightly different version of the definition "never"?
> 
> When I learned about the use of that word, it meant without exception. You either use it when there is absolutely no exceptions, or you preface it with an exhaustive list of "except for."
> 
> ...


My H must have been listening in the background back in 5th grade!

Seriously, I have asked my H no less than 100 times since we married to please stop talking in absolutes. His world is always/never, black and white. But if you ask him a direct question, the answer is usually, "it depends." 

It just comes down to someone who can't communicate on an honest level. They find it necessary to speak in absolutes that are, in my view, a way of getting a message across, in a passive aggressive way, to show they are angry or some other negative emotion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My husband complains that I do this, but he does his own version of it too yet he doesn't see the double standard. Somehow it is "true" when he does it. 

What I don't get is, why is it such a big deal? The listener knows it isn't a literal statement if the speaker says always or never. Yet they will stop the conversation just to correct the speaker on their word usage? Which to me just shows they aren't actually listening to the point, they are just looking for ways to shut the speaker off.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

ebp123 said:


> It just comes down to someone who can't communicate on an honest level. They find it necessary to speak in absolutes that are, in my view, a way of getting a message across, in a passive aggressive way, to show they are angry or some other negative emotion.


I certainly curious on the motive. 

I have accused my wife of intentionally minimizing what I do to make her case sound more extreme than it is. I'm not certain if that is the motive. It may be lazy habit more than anything else.

Any psychiatrists in the house?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Rowan said:


> This is a person thing, rather than a woman thing.
> 
> My ex-husband was a "you never" and "you always" guy. Even after many months of MC, he still used those phrases habitually. He seemed to logically grasp that it wasn't a helpful way to communicate. But I think he'd become so ingrained in the practice of blaming me for everything that he couldn't really stop saying it. Or believing it. His perception of the world in general is very filled with absolutes. He's the sort of person for whom things are generally very much either pitch black or stark white.


This is my H, too. Especially comes out when he's defensive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

John Gray talked a lot about this in the original Mars/Venus book.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> What I don't get is, why is it such a big deal?


I'm trying not to let it completely derail me but it does put a stop to the conversation. 



Faithful Wife said:


> The listener knows it isn't a literal statement if the speaker says always or never.


I know this how? I can't read somebodies mind. I have to go with their words. Their words are saying something that is demonstrably untrue. Why should I ignore somebody lying about me?




Faithful Wife said:


> Yet they will stop the conversation just to correct the speaker on their word usage? Which to me just shows they aren't actually listening to the point, they are just looking for ways to shut the speaker off.


How about the speaker _actually articulate what they are feeling_ instead of using significantly inaccurate language?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> John Gray talked a lot about this in the original Mars/Venus book.


That certainly piqued my interest. 

I initially presumed this is a gender specific thing and was told that it's not. Isn't the Mars / Venus book based on gender based barriers in communication?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I understand that it feels like an insult, but I don't understand that you (anyone) can't immediately realize that it isn't literal. Since there is no way it COULD be literal, it is obviously not literal. Doesn't take a mind reader.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Where did the habit originate? Something that a parent used and you copied?


I hate to admit it. I really just think it's from being immature. I may even have thought I was trying to avoid punishment when I said I always, as in I always do this or that. Can you read the child in that statement?

I never can be used the same way. I never got...you fill in the blank. 

These can evolve into more adult conversation, however, they still seem to somehow have a similar meaning. 

When letting those go and just thinking about it when they come to mind, I am allowing myself to be in the moment and more empathetic. I am being more mature. At least, that's what I am attempting. 

Anger and resentment can be byproducts of sentences that include those words. Entitlement is also a part of those words.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> That certainly piqued my interest.
> 
> I initially presumed this is a gender specific thing and was told that it's not. Isn't the Mars / Venus book based on gender based barriers in communication?


Right. He talks about how men should chill out when women do this. 

Many other communication books discuss this too, such as Non Violent Communication, which is not gender based.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Why 'Always' and 'Never' Hurt Relationships | Care2 Healthy Living


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I understand that it feels like an insult, but I don't understand that you (anyone) can't immediately realize that it isn't literal. Since there is no way it COULD be literal, it is obviously not literal. Doesn't take a mind reader.


It requires the learning process about what is behind it. It would have been much simpler if the speaker used english instead of codespeak to begin with.

Even when it is learned what it is, it's _still_ simpler if the speaker used english instead of codespeak.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

It is actually more simple to ignore it when it happens, listen for the real point the speaker is making, then bring up later in a separate conversation the fact that it annoys and distracts you (the listener) when the speaker uses those words and ask them to be aware of it and work on it.

Otherwise you just derail the speaker and start a NEW topic to fight about. Totally inefficient.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

ah huh...


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

I try to refrain from telling my H that he always leaves the toilet seat up. But I can never stop myself. He always just says sorry babe but he never lets it down.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband complains that I do this, but he does his own version of it too yet he doesn't see the double standard. Somehow it is "true" when he does it.
> 
> What I don't get is, why is it such a big deal? The listener knows it isn't a literal statement if the speaker says always or never. Yet they will stop the conversation just to correct the speaker on their word usage? Which to me just shows they aren't actually listening to the point, they are just looking for ways to shut the speaker off.




We have to be careful here. There are two different contexts where "always and never" statements can be used.



One is in friendly or at least informal and not so important chit chat about one's loosely held view of the world and one's experience.



The other is "everything else."



Which sort of context are you talking about, FW? 





p.s. I'm hoping you simply have never been the target of abuse by someone employing "always and never" statements in attempts to define you. I'm hoping you simply have never had the misfortune to find your life intertwined with someone who, despite how obviously false his statements are, it is clear he believes them -- including the distorted "always and nevers" coming from his mouth, often in an angry or disgusted tone.



Even when the distorted thinking is not charged with anger, or when it is directed towards someone else, it is depressing to see a loved one trapped by a distorted model of the world, or indulging in rationalizations made possible by such distortions an sloppy thinking.



If you have never had that misfortune, then walk a mile in someone's shoes who has. Then I think it will be easier to understand.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

RClawson said:


> Last weekend it was "I am never mean to you. Name just once". Instead of exploding and beginning WWIII I bit my tongue and said "Your right". I am just worn out at this point.




Patricia Evan's book titled The Verbally Abusive Relationship discusses such speech. Might be worth a look.



So does outofthefog.net.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> I certainly curious on the motive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have never thought my wife's "absolutes" were consciously driven. I do believe she believes them, and am fairly confident she gets something out of believing them, even though ultimately distorted thinking never ends well.



Lots of possibilities I wonder about in my situation:



mindset of entitlement

appeal of victimhood

denying responsibility

evading scarier truths

rationalizing lack of attraction 

rationalizing unexamined anger

revisionist justification of EA



Only surfaces when she is in an emotionally flooded state, and seems to have lost the ability to be rational.



Untruths are insidious.

Reality is important.

Unchecked, distortion becomes a habit, and victimhood becomes one's story (in the Debbie Ford sense of "story").


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> My husband complains that I do this, but he does his own version of it too yet he doesn't see the double standard. Somehow it is "true" when he does it.
> 
> What I don't get is, why is it such a big deal? The listener knows it isn't a literal statement if the speaker says always or never. Yet they will stop the conversation just to correct the speaker on their word usage? Which to me just shows they aren't actually listening to the point, they are just looking for ways to shut the speaker off.


because the listener usually gets defensive that they "always" do something wrong or "never" do the right thing

hyperbole when used in such an accusatory manner will create a higher conflict and play down the actual message because it becomes offensive to the person you are expressing your wants and needs to


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> It is actually more simple to ignore it when it happens, listen for the real point the speaker is making, then bring up later in a separate conversation the fact that it annoys and distracts you (the listener) when the speaker uses those words and ask them to be aware of it and work on it.
> 
> Otherwise you just derail the speaker and start a NEW topic to fight about. Totally inefficient.


our brains aren't wired this way usually in casual conversation, so the instant reaction is not to listen in the manner you describe, it would be incredibly difficult for most of us to constantly monitor for such matters and readjust the usual thinking pattern. So why place such an onus on the person that you wish to influence when instead you can readjust must easier when expressing desires or changes without sounding as accusatory with absolutes?


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

It affects how the speaker thinks too. If I say, "you NEVER organise stuff for us to do!" it puts me in a dramatic, defensive state of mind. It's easy to feel aggrieved and hard done by.

But if I force myself to think about the truth of what I'm saying, I realise it's not black and white at all. And things are much more reasonable and calm.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

and Larry- this is how I got my wife to stop using absolutes

an example convo-

Her- You never support me when it comes to home projects

Me- We both know I could cite several examples where I've supported your home projects so it hurts me that you think that I am so stubborn when it comes to this. In what way do think I am being unsupportive in this particular issue?

after several times of similar conversations like this she tends to not use absolutes very much these days

I should add we've had many discussions on how to end both of our habits in passive/aggressive behavior and speaking in absolutes was a big topic we went over


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

It's amazing how the "you never..." bubbles up automatically. I bite down before I can say it though.

Here's one of ours

Him, irritated tone "why do you always leave the vacuum cleaner out?"
Me "I don't. I vacuumed yesterday and put it away. You just don't notice when I do that."


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Vivid said:


> It's amazing how the "you never..." bubbles up automatically. I bite down before I can say it though.
> 
> Here's one of ours
> 
> ...



another important thing to note is that we often have "selective memory"

iow- we tend to remember the bad things because it is annoying and don't recall the beneficial but mundane

the vacuum cleaner is a perfect example of this


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I say never/always when I feel it's true. Even then sometimes he'll challenge it and say that's not true. So we go though and try to find an example and end up not finding one. A few times he has brought up something I had forgotten and I'll admit I was wrong.

But the whole process of finding who is right/wrong and going through the fact finding makes me feel unheard. If I say "you've never woken me up with a made coffee and breakfast" I'm not looking for an answer of "you're right/wrong" I'm tying to talk about emotions, not facts.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I say never/always when I feel it's true. Even then sometimes he'll challenge it and say that's not true. So we go though and try to find an example and end up not finding one. A few times he has brought up something I had forgotten and I'll admit I was wrong.
> 
> *But the whole process of finding who is right/wrong and going through the fact finding makes me feel unheard. *If I say "you've never woken me up with a made coffee and breakfast" I'm not looking for an answer of "you're right/wrong" I'm tying to talk about emotions, not facts.


then stop using absolutes even if you feel it's true and express yourself in a non-threatening manner to convey your wishes

the bolded part is exactly why

I don't expect to ALWAYS get what I ask for, but I know I won't get it if I don't ask and I know there's less of chance to get what I want if I put my wife on the defensive or get us into a silly argument


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

Wow, I guess I never (ha) realized how big of a deal this is. 

The BF and I spat on occasion. He has called me out on "always" and "never," but he does it too. I call him out as well. We both know that we don't REALLY mean always and never, but that we are frustrated. Both of us can get highly emotional, so keeping arguments "adultlike" can be a challenge. He actually enjoys confrontation and likes to push me until I lose my (usually) calm nature. We are getting better at this because it is frankly exhausting. 

I agree with the OP that its more of a "I"m frustrated that you do/do not do this more" phrase. I never considered it to be emotionally abusive. I was in an abusive relationship with the ex H, but I don't remember this being an issue. His abuse was much more calculated. He enjoyed withholding love and communication. Interesting.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I wouldnt call it abusive, it's just a poorer way of communicating


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

Agree. It's not abusive. It's just not an effective way to communicate if you actually want to resolve conflict rather than win.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Vivid said:


> Agree. It's not abusive. It's just not an effective way to communicate if you actually want to resolve conflict rather than win.


In your case (and mine) it's not abusive. But if you've been around abusive relationships, absolutes are heavily used. One doesn't automatically mean the other, but there is a connection in some cases.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> our brains aren't wired this way usually in casual conversation, so the instant reaction is not to listen in the manner you describe, it would be incredibly difficult for most of us to constantly monitor for such matters and readjust the usual thinking pattern. So why place such an onus on the person that you wish to influence when instead you can readjust must easier when expressing desires or changes without sounding as accusatory with absolutes?


:iagree:

Thank you for better articulating how I was trying to respond to FW. I find it very hard to not respond very negatively and with anger when they are thrown out. I'm succeeding in doing that (now) but I also feel that it would be a LOT easier for the person using them to quit.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Vivid said:


> It's amazing how the "you never..." bubbles up automatically. I bite down before I can say it though.


As someone who isn't innately inclined to use them, I ask again "why"?

Many aspects of human behavior are easier to deal with when you understand the dynamics behind them.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't consider it abusive either, but I"m sure it could be seen as such.

As someone who uses the "always" and "never" (only when I am VERY not happy,) I honestly can't tell you why. I would question why someone is very offended by it? I mean, SURE, we all (should) know that the only absolutes in life are death and taxes (ha) so why get upset even further when 1. you are already in an argument that has escalated to the point of being futile, and 2. you (IMO) should know that it isn't true, therefore irrelevant. 

And I"m not trying to dispute that the use of always and never is ridiculous, I"m just failing to see why its such a serious offence.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

P.S. When I have used it in heated arguments with the BF, he tells me to "use my vocabulary like a big girl." So I do get properly admonished.


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

It depends on who you are dealing with. 

I can see that a mostly reasonable person might say always/never in a moment if frustration and mean that you should do something less/more often or have better timing about something. But they are able to back track after becoming calm and explain themselves more clearly without prompting. 

But an unreasonable person saying always/never seems to actually believe it when it isn't true. They are attempting to make their lie your reality and it's usually to support a feeling of victimization or aggression. Even when not in the heat if the moment they will repeat the always/never to friends to gain sympathy and support. 

So it's highly dependent on the utterer in my opinion.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> I understand that it feels like an insult, but I don't understand that you (anyone) can't immediately realize that it isn't literal. Since there is no way it COULD be literal, it is obviously not literal. Doesn't take a mind reader.


It can't be literal, true. But it is a passive aggressive and a defense mechanism that derails conversation. 

Consider the following: "You always cut me off when I'm trying to speak" vs saying "You are in a habit of cutting me off when I'm speaking and I want to finish my thought so you understand what I'm saying."

The first one is a purposeful jab. The second one is clear communication and an expression of what you need and why. It doesn't contain the jab.

The problem for my H is that he hears a jab with the second method the same as he does the first. In fact, he'd rather us fight like cats and dogs than calmly discuss our needs. It's safer to fight. Even better, he'd prefer nothing get addressed, which I think is why he goes to always/never in the first place. He's trying to derail the conversation. He'll also throw things back at me like, "you do that, too!" and "you have double standards." But he doesn't see that I use the second method while he uses the first. To him, they are the same thing.


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## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

ebp123 said:


> It can't be literal, true. But it is a passive aggressive and a defense mechanism that derails conversation.
> 
> Consider the following: "You always cut me off when I'm trying to speak" vs saying "You are in a habit of cutting me off when I'm speaking and I want to finish my thought so you understand what I'm saying."
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Usually, by the time I get to the "always/never" stage its because I have tried to first thing and get the negative reaction to it. So instead of remaining calm, I can escalate to giving it back. Hey, I'm not perfect. 

The BF and I have talked about our arguments during peacetime, and he agrees that he can be childish (as can I once I have reached the breaking point.) But we also agree that it is completely counterproductive once we ARE at that point. I have explained to him that "debating" is much better than "arguing." He enjoys the confrontation, I do not. As our relationship grows, things have calmed down. He is dedicated to working on it, as am I.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

VermisciousKnid said:


> It depends on who you are dealing with.
> 
> I can see that a mostly reasonable person might say always/never in a moment if frustration and mean that you should do something less/more often or have better timing about something. But they are able to back track after becoming calm and explain themselves more clearly without prompting.
> 
> ...


What if it's in the gray area? That's where my mind reader comment comes in. I'm leaning towards your former explanation but there's some niggling doubt that there might be a bit of the latter.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> Which sort of context are you talking about, FW?
> 
> p.s. I'm hoping you simply have never been the target of abuse by someone employing "always and never" statements in attempts to define you. I'm hoping you simply have never had the misfortune to find your life intertwined with someone who, despite how obviously false his statements are, it is clear he believes them -- including the distorted "always and nevers" coming from his mouth, often in an angry or disgusted tone.
> 
> ...


This is a hot (or warm, at least) issue for me, because in my case, my husband can't stand it when I use always and never statements, yet he uses the same types of language when he's angry and spouting off about something. The other he said "half the time you don't even (fill in the blank)". Doesn't matter what the blank was, the "half the time" is not even close to being true as the real percentage of the time is probably like .01% of the thing being discussed.

Yet he doesn't see it when it is him doing it. He doesn't work on correcting this language issue in himself. He only focuses on it when I am doing it. Yet in our case, it is clear that when he's focused on me using words like that, what he is really doing is deflecting the real issue at hand out of defensiveness.

It honestly doesn't bother me if someone uses always and never statements because I know it is not literal and I know the speaker knows it is not literal.

So it doesn't bother me...why does it bother you? That isn't a real question, but I'm just pointing out that you don't HAVE to let it bother you. That's your choice. I choose to not let it bother me and instead, focus on the real issue the speaker is trying to convey.

I do understand that it annoys my husband and I've tried to stop using those words because he will derail the entire conversation and just focus on that if I use them. 

Meanwhile, he isn't trying to remove it from his speech, isn't trying to figure out why he has this double standard, and is only barely aware that he is frequently defensive for no real reason.

Did you guys know that if you are angry, that's on you?

Did you also know that if you are defensive, that means you are deliberately stopping the conversation just to not have to face up to your own possible shortcomings?

I mean I'm hearing you, and I get it...it is annoying to hear always and never. But I'm not hearing you say your spouse actually has a legit concern behind the poor word usage.

I consider any complaint he brings to me as legit. I don't try to deflect, be defensive, or pick his word useage apart. (He doesn't do this for me, however).

You guys can claim that being defensive and picking the speaker's words apart are the "right" way to handle it...but actually, marriage and language experts would not agree with you.

http://www.gottmanblog.com/2013/05/the-four-horsemen-defensiveness.html


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

larry.gray said:


> What if it's in the gray area? That's where my mind reader comment comes in. I'm leaning towards your former explanation but there's some niggling doubt that there might be a bit of the latter.


Things are never black and white, right? 

Maybe the always/never people feel things so intensely that the memory of past events actually disappears for a moment. I'm not like that so I don't really know what goes on in their heads. When the intensity fades, do they become more rational?

Maybe some of them believe in the always/never because they're pessimistic about life in general and good things are nearly invisible to them? I'd call this kind of person damaged. That kind of always/never is more of a general complaint about life than a personal attack. 

I put my wife partially in this category (gray area). She can recognize that what she says isn't true but she has a kind of martyr complex that demands a really dramatic, ie. black and white recounting of events. She isn't malicious about it. It fits in with her world view so I guess it's comforting to her at some level.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

VermisciousKnid said:


> Maybe some of them believe in the always/never because they're pessimistic about life in general and good things are nearly invisible to them? I'd call this kind of person damaged. That kind of always/never is more of a general complaint about life than a personal attack.
> .


I agree with this. My H is pessimistic about most things. "The problem with that is..." is such a recurring statement that I've asked him to stop doing that. He sees it as problem solving, but he's always looking for a problem. Such a negative way to view the world!


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## VermisciousKnid (Dec 27, 2011)

ebp123 said:


> I agree with this. My H is pessimistic about most things. "The problem with that is..." is such a recurring statement that I've asked him to stop doing that. He sees it as problem solving, but he's always looking for a problem. Such a negative way to view the world!


My wife is like this. She's continually pointing out what is wrong or who is wrong (according to her). When it comes to a what is wrong situation I just say "Well you can improve upon it and make a million bucks then" or "You can improve upon it and everyone will hail you as a genius".


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I think a big factor FW is that if you're innately a person who does always / never when they are very inaccurate statement then it's not going to be as a big of an issue when you hear it.

For somebody who is careful and precise in the language they use, it is a forceful word. One that can easily cause a huge distraction.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

And you're sure you "never" are guilty of using any word that isn't 100% true, in every circumstance?

And also you're sure that when your wife (or whoever) uses those words, it is the correct thing to do to derail them from their attempt to discuss it with you?

And you're also sure that you are never actually just being defensive and not wanting to hear what she's saying?

I just don't buy it.

I do understand, as I said, that it is annoying. But I don't believe for a moment that she doesn't have a legit complaint. Why isn't her complaint just as important as your complaint that she's using the wrong words?

How about some patience and trying to understand what she really wants you to hear versus just being hung up on the word? 

All the word does is annoy you...is that really such a big deal?

But yeah...I'm sure you will come back and insist that the word is SUCH a big deal that her legit concerns should rightfully be ignored because "OMG how could she use those words???!!!?!!"

It really is something you should be able to just work with her on (using those words) separately, while in the moment you actually address the concerns she has.

Not even talking about the fact that she HAS legit concerns here on this thread is what makes me feel like you'd rather "be right" and "not be at fault" than actually listen to her.

If you do read the M/V book you'd see that being defensive and trying to NEVER BE WRONG about anything is a common communication problem men have. Why not be open to the fact that you are both contributing to the problem?

But no....she's wrong. She shouldn't use those words. It can't possibly be two people who share responsibility for the problems together, right?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

FW: Did I ever claim she didn't have a legitimate complaint?

In fact the issue was address and done with two days ago - at the time of the discussion. The substance of what it was about wasn't relevant to this discussion. It's also frankly none of your business - and we were able to deal with it without either of us needing to come here and ask for help. 

The discussion of the "you never" was delayed until the issue was resolved. I've gotten MUCH better about dealing with it. 5 years ago the topic she started with would be derailed and ignored. I've quit doing that, and have for several years now.

You're making a bunch of presumptions about things I never said. You're getting far more offended than I am about this. Why are you so defensive about this?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Lol, Larry...I wasn't asking you to tell me what the issue was.

And I said in my first post on this thread why this is a hot issue for me.


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## Vivid (Aug 28, 2014)

larry.gray said:


> As someone who isn't innately inclined to use them, I ask again "why"?
> 
> Many aspects of human behavior are easier to deal with when you understand the dynamics behind them.


Because it feels true at the time. It illustrates an emotional truth. 

But it's not helpful to express it, for either the speaker or the listener. The listener gets defensive and annoyed. The speaker gets more entrenched and righteous in their position.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Lol, Larry...I wasn't asking you to tell me what the issue was.


But you did imply that I was ignoring the issue. The only way you can get there is to make some presumptions based on nothing that I said so far. Which leads me to:



Faithful Wife said:


> And I said in my first post on this thread why this is a hot issue for me.


Which was:



Faithful Wife said:


> My husband complains that I do this, but he does his own version of it too yet he doesn't see the double standard. Somehow it is "true" when he does it.
> 
> What I don't get is, why is it such a big deal? The listener knows it isn't a literal statement if the speaker says always or never. Yet they will stop the conversation just to correct the speaker on their word usage? Which to me just shows they aren't actually listening to the point, they are just looking for ways to shut the speaker off.



So - you're projecting your husband's behavior onto my and my wife's exchange. Please don't do that. You made accusations about me that aren't true.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> I think a big factor FW is that *if you're innately a person who does always / never when they are very inaccurate statement then it's not going to be as a big of an issue when you hear it*.
> 
> *For somebody who is careful and precise in the language they use*, it is a forceful word. One that can easily cause a huge distraction.


And this is insulting to me, Larry.

You don't get to have it both ways. Either speak respectfully to me, or speak snarky...I'll return the favor either way.

Anyway, no worries, it is your thread, have at it.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I *never* say, "You never..."

Sorry Larry, couldn't resist :lol:

Btw, I completely agree. It's an overused phrase with very little credibility, puts the listener in an automatic defensive mode, and should best be avoided.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I see radically different explanations over the same behavior



Vivid said:


> Because it feels true at the time. It illustrates an emotional truth.





Faithful Wife said:


> I understand that it feels like an insult, but I don't understand that you (anyone) can't immediately realize that it isn't literal.


So when Vivid says it, it is an expression for what is in her mind.

For FW, it is not, it is inaccurate articulation.

Hence:



Faithful Wife said:


> Since there is no way it COULD be literal, it is obviously not literal. Doesn't take a mind reader.


I disagree. Here we have two different people who have very different meanings behind the same thing. Sooooo.. It is mind reading to know the difference.




Vivid said:


> But it's not helpful to express it, for either the speaker or the listener. The listener gets defensive and annoyed. The speaker gets more entrenched and righteous in their position.


Agreed. And it is helpful for the recipient to understand that defensiveness and derailing the conversation won't resolve the issue.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> How about the speaker _actually articulate what they are feeling_ instead of using significantly inaccurate language?


Another example of a snarky response to me.

Yet you wonder why I'm snarky to you?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But of course, you can't see your own part in this, right?

I give up. Have a nice day.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Three more posts after saying you were leaving?

We can't miss you if you won't go away.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

I never thought this would be so controversial


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Yet I'm always here to joke about it


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Calm down everyone...

Truly not worth getting *banned*.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> I think a big factor FW is that if you're innately a person who does always / never when they are very inaccurate statement then it's not going to be as a big of an issue when you hear it.
> 
> For somebody who is careful and precise in the language they use, it is a forceful word. One that can easily cause a huge distraction.


Absolutely agree with this in my situation!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

If a speaker wants emotional truth, then they should start their sentence with I, not you. I am frustrated. I get upset, I don't like it when...

I find that always and never are used in anger and frustration. 

For example: tonight I asked my H what was wrong, his time of voice, body language, etc., made it clear he was upset. He said: how would you like it if every time you said something, I contradicted you. Every time.

Now, of course I don't do that every time. And what he was upset about happened over texts many hours before. But what I supposedly contradicted him about was something he was 100% wrong on and I let him know it. (He said that the reason our DD8 forgot to turn in her homework was because she likes to keep it in her book. I reminded him that she came home from school with a stomach ache before she ever had a chance to turn it in and that the kids check their homework together in class. But that just made him more mad, so he then brought up the other issue from earlier. 

If he would just communicate his issue with what I've done in a mature way, we would get somewhere. I'm not an unreasonable person, but his always/never thinking has me painted that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

VermisciousKnid said:


> It depends on who you are dealing with.
> 
> I can see that a mostly reasonable person might say always/never in a moment if frustration and mean that you should do something less/more often or have better timing about something. But they are able to back track after becoming calm and explain themselves more clearly without prompting.
> 
> ...




Yes. Well said.





When I have been one the receiving end of the worst sort, I do feel a bit pissed. But the overwhelming feeling is one of utter helplessness, because the one I love is angry and hurt and victimized by an imposter that looks like me but exists only in her head.



The degree of hopelessness I have felt might, if I step back, seem disproportionate to even me....maybe...if in a different context. In the context I have been in, maybe the words act like a trigger, and suddenly I am face to face with someone very angry with the imposter.



The times it has really hurt are those where I have worked to make sure the "never and always" are definitely no longer true -- and so she is dismissing or ignoring darn near current accomplishments.... the thing I did to address her complaints turned out to not only be "not the cure" I hoped for, her words wipe it off the most recent page in the history book.



On the abuse aspect, I think Larry said it well. And SGW has a good point too. Here's how I see it now:



Always and Never:



1) sometimes true

2) sometimes exaggerates

3) sometimes hyperbole (deliberate)

4) sometimes escalates, regrettably 

5) sometimes habitual (bad one)

6) sometimes taints the speaker's

view of the world/mindset

6) sometimes employed by an 

abuser to define the other,

sometimes

f'cking up the other's mind







If you haven't experienced 6, then maybe it is hard to understand.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Did you guys know that if you are angry, that's on you?
> 
> Did you also know that if you are defensive, that means you are deliberately stopping the conversation just to not have to face up to your own possible shortcomings?
> 
> ...


This is the most insulting and presumptuous thing anyone has said to me on this board.

When someone is screaming that you are an a$$hole, painting you black (in the BPD sense of the term), etc., and has done so over a period of bleak and depressing years, you might have a different conclusion.

I have seen a therapist for nearly two years at my own volition. I have done a ton of soul searching, significantly motivated by the questions "Is it me? Is there anything I can do about that to change myself?" I have asked my therapist multiple times what it is I might have done wrong and what I need to change about myself, and I have ACTED on what I have learned.

Defending oneself and being pissed when someone continues to attempt to define who you are and what you think and buttresses that effort by using exaggerations is a respectable response. Just because people who feel they are being smeared might be defensive solely as a defense mechanism to keep them from hearing the truth about themselves, that is *NOT ALWAYS* the case.

You might consider what you get out of believe that it IS always the case, including in lives and situations you know nothing about.


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