# 32+ years coming to an end



## sunshinesas

Sorry if this comes out mixed up, my emotions are a turbulent roller coaster. Married 32 years, he is retired military, two kids; one at home, one on their own. I shut down physically and emotionally two years ago; so yes we haven't had sex or any sort of intimate relationship in a long time. I felt I have nothing left, dead. I am trying desperately to come to gripes with the situation, I know in my head its over but getting my heart there is the hard work. I still love him but feel we have zero glue holding us together. Many years of alcohol issues (his), money issues, sex issues, you name it, we are both broken folks trying to put ourselves back together separately. I am in therapy to figure out my life and see how the hell I got here today, he is in therapy trying to work on a relationship with our son (another story). So much sorrow, so many regrets, anger and pain. I take responsibility for shutting down, I guess it was my last ditch effort to make him see me, really see me and it backfired, that is on me and I am owning/suffering the consequences. We live in the same house for the time being, moved to separate room just under two weeks ago. Working with trying to get financial crap, houses, kids, etc worked out, just crazy times. We had issues our entire marriage although there were good times there were some really bad too. We are both strong willed, stubborn people stuck in hell at the present time. When I ever get my crap straight I will start at the beginning. I find peace here, read some things that hit home, some good some hurtful. Thanks for being here.


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## Satya

@sunshinesas, that's a lot to pack into one paragraph. Sorry that you are where you are.

I am guessing from your post that the reason you shut down physically and emotionally was because of your H's alcohol, money, and sex issues? You don't go into great detail, but I'm guessing that all of these issues went to the extreme and you kept forgiving him, meanwhile more and more of your love for him died inside.

You're certainly not alone. I think you'll find many posters here will relate to your situation. It's good that you are both in therapy individually, it will certainly help.

Given the title of your post, am I to assume that you two are divorcing?


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## Mr.StrongMan

@sunshinesas do you want to fix your marriage? Do you want love and intimacy again? When you said that you shut down in your marriage, was that you say to try to get your husband's attention? It's good that you take responsibility for your part.


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## sunshinesas

Sorry been crying for days, the pain inside seems so unbearable. Satya yes for all those reasons and the fact we were in a contastant power struggle and I felt we never had a normal healthy relationship. Yes we are in the process of divorce but seems we go round and round and haven't made much headway. MrStrongMan yes I would love to have a great relationship but it can't seem to happen if it is one sided. And yes, I shut down because I felt I had nothing left to give and also a last ditch effort to make him see and want to work it out. I have hurt him as much as he has hurt me. Seems we tried a few good times over thirty years but never kept at it. I think he no longer wants to do it or even try between telling me there is no chance, finding a "friend" rather quickly 
(that is now not active) and making me know "he is what he is and isn't going to change' gives me no hope. He thinks I don't want him but don't want anyone else to but the truth is up until he started texting and talking I sadly thought there may be some way to work things out. I am the strong one, always fixing and managing everything but this I can't fix. I do love him and don't want anyone else but we can't stay in a marriage were we are both miserable.


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## 3Xnocharm

I know this is a hard time for you. But its ok to let this end, it sounds like there was effort put in for a long time, and it just doesn't work. So stop fighting with yourself, there is no need to beat yourself up. Keep posting here and we will offer you support and answer questions along your journey. You are getting the opportunity to finally find some peace and happiness.


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## turnera

It's probably too late for the marriage, but it can't hurt to read this book: His Needs Her Needs.


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## Cooper

I was married for twenty years, most of those years were full of conflict and drama. I think if I would have looked up and saw a piano falling from the sky and about to hit me my last thought would be "finally, it's over".

But you know what Sunshinesas, just like you when my marriage finally was coming to its end I was emotionally devastated. It took some time but I realized I was upset about the end of the dreams and plans we had made, the end of our family unit. I projected some of those feelings on my then wife, thinking I was going to miss her, thinking if we just worked harder we could make things work. But the cold truth is I didn't like the person I was married to, I knew we were a bad match and remaining together would only prolong our misery. When she moved out it was like a storm passed out of my life, the relief she was gone was over whelming, my life has been better every single day since. Truthfully I wished it had happened years earlier.

Sunshinesas I wonder if you are going thru the same thing, I wonder if deep down you know you want to be divorced from the man you are married to, you realize you are a bad couple, you're trying to hold on because if you divorce it puts an end to those dreams you had. You are thinking you will miss him, but the reality is you will miss what could have been. Take it from me and many others, there is a great life to live after divorce, right now is traumatic but you will get thru the divorce and things will work out just fine. Then your life starts fresh, you can do whatever you want when ever you want, you will be amazed at how happy and relaxed you will become. Makes me smile just thinking how nice my life is right now, I bet in the near future you find yourself smiling and thinking "thank goodness I stepped out from under that piano!" lol

Hang tough, it will be worth it.


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## AVR1962

Sunshine, I just recently went thru a divorce form my husband would was a career Air Force man. As you mentioned we too had alcohol issues (his), money issues, sex issues, perhaps not the same. I have been part of the military life and family for the past 27 years being with my husband. I have seen alot as I know you have too. My ex was one of the heavy drinkers as there tends to be some very heavy drinking among the men. His TDYs seemed more about going off and having fun with the guys, drinking heavy and going to strip clubs or trying to get into brothels in Holland, than they were work itself. he would call me from his hotel and would be drunk. If we had military friends over for a grill-out he'd be drunk. We spent 16 of our 27 years together overseas so military became our family and that is who we spent holidays with. Holidays were the worst for my ex who would drink all day. I could tell you stories!!!!

The good thing here is that you are in therapy trying to figure out who you got to where you are. I did just like yourself. My ex was pretty hung up on emotional affairs and pursuing other women, a porn addict, and I was for the most part, I feel, a convenience to raise his sons (from his first marriage- he had custody) and take care of of all the household duties. He was emotionally unavailable to us all. he lied and covered up for years but actions speak louder than words. After 19 years of marriage he admitted his feelings for these women over the years. he never admitted to physical affairs but I would not put it past him. I realized then my whole life in caring for him, his children and trying my best to make a marriage work had been very one-sided. I had communicated well, he just did not care. I could not get past this and I tried just to maintain friendship to keep from tearing our family apart. Our youngest was still in high school. Like you, I started sleeping in the spare room which made him mad and he is passive-aggressive so I had to pay for hurting him, rather than him realizing I was hurt by his behavior thru the years. I started therapy to untwist the roots and figure out why I had ended up with a man who treated me so poorly, and why I stayed so long.

After 5 years of sleeping in the spare room, living as roommates I finally filed for divorce. I realized there was nothing left to salvage and he had no interests except to blame me and try to hold me accountable for his actions. I realized thru therapy that I had been my family's scapegoat and never had the love of my mother and my ex was just like my mom. It has taken me baby steps to get where I am now and it was quite a process but here I am 5 years later and I have been able to forgive my mom, accept my role in my family of origin, I see how that influenced me and what I was willing to accept in others and how they treat me. It wasn't just in my marriage, it was with friends and people I worked with. I was the eager pleaser, the codpendent, the caregiver. Changing that takes a lot of hard work because I always want to shift back, even now, to be that people pleaser.

All of this may not pertain to you but I shared in case it did.

I got out. Left my ex 5 months ago. It was freedom walking out that door. 

Continue to work on yourself and understand how you got where you are. Do not be hard on yourself. You have had your wake-up call and you are now seeing your life in the reality by reflecting. This reflection in reality will help you to get where you need to be. No more excuse making, no more passing up red flags, no more coasting to make it work. 

My thoughts are with you! You can do this!!


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## john117

The thought of separation isn't any harder after one or thirty one years. It's the reason, and the future - or lack thereof - that should keep one going.

In a few months I'll be starting the process myself after 35 years together, 32 married. A laundry list of reasons, pretty much any of which should be enough on it's own. 

Do I feel sad? Not really. I know I tried. The human mind, a subject I know well, is a wonderful thing. But once in a while it goes haywire. 

And without professional intervention, and often with it, nothing works.


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## sunshinesas

Been a few days. AVR thank you for your heartfelt post, seems these ex-military guys like to blame alcohol issues on "just drinking with the guys and relieving stress" but it is more than that being on the other end we see it. I gave up therapy a month ago because I believed I was strong and in a good place and really my therapist was great but it was more like venting to a good friend, of course in her defense, I was not in the place I have been in the last few weeks. We talked a long time the other day, a first of not arguing, etc and it was nice but I am careful not to fall back into things because I really haven't seen a change from him nor a want to make one. I was honest and really trying to not hate, not want to strangle him and talk like an adult and hear, I think he did better too. I think the hard part for me was being so angry and having to realize I still love him very much but I want to be in it for all the right reasons and I am still not sure that is enough. I think he started talking to another girl for two reasons; 1-I threw in the towel and the attention was great, 2-even though he doesn't agree, I think it may be easier for them to move on to someone new than trying to fix a relationship that has 30 plus years of unresolved issues. I get that, just makes me angry how one person can so easily move on but its life. I actually got angry enough to want to go at him physically, afterwards I felt sick because I never felt so blind rage and because that is polar opposite than the person I am. The past week I have tried to focus on me and my reaction to things but I still feel we are stuck in a rut, neither going forward. I want very much for him to fight for me, to be a new man or better one, but those are just pipe dreams. I need to get back into therapy, may someone new and move ahead. Thank you all for your continued support this is but a few pages of a lifetime book so although confusing I am trying to get it out.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> Been a few days. AVR thank you for your heartfelt post, seems these ex-military guys like to blame alcohol issues on "just drinking with the guys and relieving stress" but it is more than that being on the other end we see it. I gave up therapy a month ago because I believed I was strong and in a good place and really my therapist was great but it was more like venting to a good friend, of course in her defense, I was not in the place I have been in the last few weeks. We talked a long time the other day, a first of not arguing, etc and it was nice but I am careful not to fall back into things because I really haven't seen a change from him nor a want to make one. I was honest and really trying to not hate, not want to strangle him and talk like an adult and hear, I think he did better too. I think the hard part for me was being so angry and having to realize I still love him very much but I want to be in it for all the right reasons and I am still not sure that is enough. I think he started talking to another girl for two reasons; 1-I threw in the towel and the attention was great, 2-even though he doesn't agree, I think it may be easier for them to move on to someone new than trying to fix a relationship that has 30 plus years of unresolved issues. I get that, just makes me angry how one person can so easily move on but its life. I actually got angry enough to want to go at him physically, afterwards I felt sick because I never felt so blind rage and because that is polar opposite than the person I am. The past week I have tried to focus on me and my reaction to things but I still feel we are stuck in a rut, neither going forward. I want very much for him to fight for me, to be a new man or better one, but those are just pipe dreams. I need to get back into therapy, may someone new and move ahead. Thank you all for your continued support this is but a few pages of a lifetime book so although confusing I am trying to get it out.


I so do understand. I do understand that blind rage. I reached that point too. My (now) ex had the emotional affairs I was speaking of, we had counseling for them. Well, low and behold one of those ladies moved back to the area we were living, you know military. Ex (while married) did not tell me. We were invited to a Christmas dinner and were sitting in the car outside this couple's home, a coupe I had got to know as friends. I was told then that is was possible that one of ex's EA ladies would be at this dinner party. Talk about bewildered, I didn't know she was even in the area. Sure enough, 20 minutes after we were at this dinner party she comes in with her new husband who just happened to work down the hallways from my husband and was married at the time.....put two and two together there. My husband chats with this lady for a good 10 minutes in the front room all happy to see one another. I was disgusted. I could not believe the whole situation that just played out. I could not stay. We got home and I lost it. I have never ever been so out of control. I told him to leave. I was done. The nerve of him. How could he have done such a thing? How insensitive and selfish!

If you feel you have reacted wrongly think again. Okay, we don't like the lack of control over our emotions but basically you lost it because of all the garbage you have endured. 

I ended up being diagnosed with PTSD. Not just from that one incident but from years of crap!!!


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## aine

sunshinesas said:


> Been a few days. AVR thank you for your heartfelt post, seems these ex-military guys like to blame alcohol issues on "just drinking with the guys and relieving stress" but it is more than that being on the other end we see it. I gave up therapy a month ago because I believed I was strong and in a good place and really my therapist was great but it was more like venting to a good friend, of course in her defense, I was not in the place I have been in the last few weeks. We talked a long time the other day, a first of not arguing, etc and it was nice but I am careful not to fall back into things because I really haven't seen a change from him nor a want to make one. I was honest and really trying to not hate, not want to strangle him and talk like an adult and hear, I think he did better too. I think the hard part for me was being so angry and having to realize I still love him very much but I want to be in it for all the right reasons and I am still not sure that is enough. I think he started talking to another girl for two reasons; 1-I threw in the towel and the attention was great, 2-even though he doesn't agree, I think it may be easier for them to move on to someone new than trying to fix a relationship that has 30 plus years of unresolved issues. I get that, just makes me angry how one person can so easily move on but its life. I actually got angry enough to want to go at him physically, afterwards I felt sick because I never felt so blind rage and because that is polar opposite than the person I am. The past week I have tried to focus on me and my reaction to things but I still feel we are stuck in a rut, neither going forward. I want very much for him to fight for me, to be a new man or better one, but those are just pipe dreams. I need to get back into therapy, may someone new and move ahead. Thank you all for your continued support this is but a few pages of a lifetime book so although confusing I am trying to get it out.


I honestly believe that people who are heavy drinkers or alcoholics do not have the capacity to care for other people the way they want to be cared for, they don't love themselves, if they did they wouldn't destroy themselves with alcohol, so how can they really love someone else?
I have been where you are wanting my RAH to 'fight' for me when I threatened to divorce him, he did eventually as he got the right counsellor. We are not out of the woods yet. If your H is busy looking for alternatives to you, I would suggest you have wasted too much time with him already, give him what he wants. Some men are selfish and will never change.
YOu have to get counselling for yourself only, leave the marriage aside, work on you and what you want out your life for you. No other person can make you happy, you have to be happy with yourself. The other person is only a bonus if they are there for you.


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## sunshinesas

I think you might have nailed it on the head


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## sunshinesas

The drinking too precedence over everything else and I agree I don't think those that do it can be compassionate about anything else nor care as deeply about others around them. So sad, he missed so many things in the kids lives when they were little but it is his loss. My daughter is a recovering alcoholic and I can't help to wonder if I would have left earlier would things have been different for her or was it actually some gene thing, his grandfather was a raging alcoholic.


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## sunshinesas

I contacted my therapist to start back with her and see how things go for me. I pretty much made a decision today that there must be something wrong with me to stay all these years, take the crap but still sit here thinking there is some kind of chance. What the hell? He made a remark when we talked the other day about "the other girl" saying she hoped things worked out for us, my response was, "oh that was nice" but I am thinking you didn't just stop talking to her, you called and pleaded your case and apologized to her trying to smooth things over and make you look like the good guy. Same Rodeo, different town, he did the same 15 years ago. You can apologize to them but not to me? I think he can't be honest and I already have trust issues so where does that leave me, willing to take a chance and accept whatever crumbs he throws my way? No, I don't see how I can trust him(once again) since he pleads his case they were just friends and swore he would prove it by showing me the emails, texts, etc but low and behold, he can't they were all deleted! You can't prove what isn't true right. I am such a sucker! When times get bad your recourse is to run and get attention from some stranger? You can have a hour conversation with a stranger but not 10 minutes with me or your son? What am I thinking? I would have almost accepted him saying "your right I found someone else I am interested in and its really not your business" as opposed to telling me repeatedly you were just friends, why can't married men have women friends. Its a repeat of many years ago and took me years to trust again and never fully. I don't see how he could make things better and don't think he can and I think he knows this. He went to his therapist today and I texted him to ask her how we can get through this disaster and come to an end while remaining semi normal people and his response was "get rid of the kids and house" I said ok, and the sneaky soon to be ex husband too? He must have texted 5 times later asking what I meant by that I never did respond.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> I contacted my therapist to start back with her and see how things go for me. I pretty much made a decision today that there must be something wrong with me to stay all these years, take the crap but still sit here thinking there is some kind of chance. What the hell? He made a remark when we talked the other day about "the other girl" saying she hoped things worked out for us, my response was, "oh that was nice" but I am thinking you didn't just stop talking to her, you called and pleaded your case and apologized to her trying to smooth things over and make you look like the good guy. Same Rodeo, different town, he did the same 15 years ago. You can apologize to them but not to me? I think he can't be honest and I already have trust issues so where does that leave me, willing to take a chance and accept whatever crumbs he throws my way? No, I don't see how I can trust him(once again) since he pleads his case they were just friends and swore he would prove it by showing me the emails, texts, etc but low and behold, he can't they were all deleted! You can't prove what isn't true right. I am such a sucker! When times get bad your recourse is to run and get attention from some stranger? You can have a hour conversation with a stranger but not 10 minutes with me or your son? What am I thinking? I would have almost accepted him saying "your right I found someone else I am interested in and its really not your business" as opposed to telling me repeatedly you were just friends, why can't married men have women friends. Its a repeat of many years ago and took me years to trust again and never fully. I don't see how he could make things better and don't think he can and I think he knows this. He went to his therapist today and I texted him to ask her how we can get through this disaster and come to an end while remaining semi normal people and his response was "get rid of the kids and house" I said ok, and the sneaky soon to be ex husband too? He must have texted 5 times later asking what I meant by that I never did respond.


Oh my goodness lady, you are walking in my footsteps, literally! Addiction will ALWAYS win. You cannot compete with his addiction....the one he denies. It does not matter what the addiction is in a person's life, it takes priority. They have to to get their "high" or "fix."

Let me ask you, in all your years together was there ever another man? Could you ever betrayed your vows and your husband by pursuing another man? Why would you ever stay with a man that finds this okay to do to you?

Are you messed up? No! You have integrity, you are passionate and you have a great deal of compassion and this is what your husband is abusing. Why? His needs come first and what he desires he gets no matter what. he might lie to you to keep you or to keep "peace" but he is not sincere. He will say what he needs to get you off his back.

These men are so twisted in their thought processes. When I met my (now) ex he had told me that his wife had an affair and left him with the boys. he told me that he knew women didn't like him and so he had not dated in the 3 years since he was single. Made himself look like the very honorable and committed father that was stung by a real bad woman. I had no reason to doubt him and his family supported everything he said so I thought it was all true. The truth of the matter was that he was leaving his wife at home with 2 toddlers while he went out drinking with the guys after work without calling home. She made friends and decided to do the same which he did not like as he felt she should have been at home taking care of their children. One night he demanded that she be home at a certain time and she was not so he locked the door and would not allow her in. This man is a very vindictive type. He then contacted an attorney and filed for custody of their sons. She had no money, he would not allow her to have anything from the house except her personally belongings. Accounts were not split, she had nothing. She had no savings and could not hire any attorney. She ended up moving out of state and in with her mom to get on her feet. Once she left the state he had the boys staying thru the week with his sister who lived up the road from him about 20 minutes. So instead of taking care of his sons after work, picking them up and making sure they had the stability he sent them off while he went and drank with his buddies after work. What kind of guys does that? Someone with no compassion for another person, someone who has no remorse and cannot stand accountable for his own actions.

Once I figured this out about my ex I should have ran but I did not....I supported him. Looking back I can see how stupid I was. I hold on to hope that they love us, that something we say or do will make a difference, that everything will work out. At some point thought you have to realize that you deserve better, your children deserve better and you need more than crumbs from this man who does not have it to give to you.

I think it is good that you are going back to your therapist. You are not messed up lady, you are starting to see the light!


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## turnera

Have you read this book?
Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds Of Angry And Controlling Men


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## Satya

Stick with your counseling (IC). 

And read that book turnera suggested. You need to learn to stop being afraid of how you really feel. 

"That's nice" should have been "I'm not interested" or "I'm not OK with you talking to her." 

You're going to have to detach and start speaking your truth to be able to build yourself up.


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## AVR1962

Let us know how the therapy session goes.


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## Openminded

I was married for more than a few decades to a liar and a cheat. I decided to R when he swore he would have no further contact with his "friend" (he never admitted she was more). That turned out, decades later, to be another lie -- big surprise -- and I finally divorced him. I heard all the stories about there being nothing there, blah, blah, blah, just friends, blah, blah, blah. Don't believe it. Liars lie.


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## sunshinesas

Therapy in another week. I gave him a "joseph" letter today explaining I don't think this girl situation was strictly friends and if he wanted to fight for our marriage as much as it might hurt i needed complete access to everything. His response, I will have to ask my lawyer because all my account info is on my phone. I said I don't want your bank stuff (stupid he is hiding this anyway) I want the text, chats, video. Nope no budging. I calmly told him thanks I get the answer if he was so innocent it would be no big deal but he isn't going to (as i expected). So its done, we can move on. I texted the girl he was all over like white on rice and told her she could have him and she text back they were just friends, she has a man, blah blah blah but neither of their stories adds up. I call bullchit. Anywho guess i need to start inventorying and make an appt with my bad ass lawyer asap. He said he thought we were going ahead as planned anyway I said by all accounts and discussions of late you wanted to "work" on things, so I give up.


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## AVR1962

Sunshine, I think you have your answers and you have to trust your gut on this one. I had a very similar situation and I too contacted the girl and she also said they were "just friends." She was the office *****, so to speak. She was flirting up all the men, including the married guys. I could see what she was doing, she didn't care if they were married or not. She had all these guys wrapped around her little finger. She was not attractive....heavy, crooked teeth but she was sure loving the attention of these men and vise versa. She and my husband went to lunch together, he would resupply her candy bowl with candies and munch them down and chat with her and then have to keep replacing them. Just friends? Well, she ended up marrying a guy just down the hall from husband's office, a man who was married and had two children at the time when all the flirtation garbage was going on. That's how "just friends" work in the office place when you have two eager bodies trying to get to know one another and stroke each other's egos.

Husband and I had counseling about all this. He told counselor that he thought this was just "typical male behavior." The counselor told him, with me sitting there, that some men do this and feel it is acceptable but what it is is cheating. He told my husband any attention, time spent and time seeking other women for his personal pleasure is cheating. That time and energy should be spent on our marriage, that when he takes time away for these other women he is robbing me and the marriage. And because of his actions I had got to a point where I felt I could not longer trust him. I forgave and forgave. I was clear as to what was not acceptable but he just tried harder to hide what he was doing. He could look me in the eye and lie without hesitation or blink. 

Good luck with your attorney!


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## Openminded

My ex-husband was very similar. There were several women who reported to him over the years that he claimed were "just friends". One for sure wasn't and I suspect the others weren't either. 

Work is the primary place for affairs.


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## sunshinesas

I feel like an idiot he has sucked me in twice in the last few weeks being so sweet and nice and now I am pretty sure his lawyer has fed him to be nice, say the right thing, all so he can protect his assets. After 32 years its all about the money. Red flags all over the place.


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## AVR1962

Yep!!!! Be very careful! More than likely he will play the nice card to get you to bend to what you deserve and want from the divorce. I contacted an attorney....they told me that based on income from him and me that I should be awarded $_______ for alimony. My husband (now ex) nearly croaked. I was to be awarded this for life. He told me he was willing to pay my house pmt but that was more than fair in his book which was basically the equivalent of the retirement pay from the military that the governments figures indicated would be the proper amount to pay me. I told him if he thought he was going to pass this off in and get away with it in court he better think twice because no judge was going to approve of what he wanted. To try to work with him I did agree to $500 less than the attorney figured and I agreed that alimony would stop if I should remarry. 

I have been self employed working part-time, raising 5 kids and moving all over the world with his career for 24 years. No degree. Moving on meant starting up my business and trying to make enough to support myself and our daughter who is going to college. It takes time to build up any kind of business. Moving expenses on top of all that, moving to another state, it all became very expensive and here I had agreed to less to be peaceful. It hurt me financially in the long run so keep that in mind as you are going thru this process. You have to take care of your needs.


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## jsmart

I want to add another perspective and why he's being nice. He's having doubts about ending it. It's an internal battle. He'll think about all your history, the kids, potential grand kids. Then there's the one we men always think about, the thought of you with another man would tear him up. 

Yes, he's being unfaithful but come on, you cut him off sexually for 2 years. How long is a man supposed to be sexually cut off before he goes out and finds another for sex and affection?

I've read so many threads of OW/MW who were so sure their AP was finally going to leave the wife. The MM will say "today is the day I'm going to tell her it's over, we can finally be together." Then BANG! He looks at his wife, thinks about all they have together and can't do it. What happens next shocks the OW. Her number is blocked and she gets a NC letter. 

You say want to salvage your marriage yet you don't want to make the first move. I'd bet my next paycheck that you could snatch his heart in a second. No cheap woman that's willing to sneak around with a MM can compete with what you offer. ONLY with you does he have honor. Only with you can future grand kids come to see grand pa & grand ma TOGETHER.


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## Emerging Buddhist

One finds some pretty high walls built in 32 years...

We've all had them, some depend on them for a lifetime.

If you can forget his role in this one area for a moment... what do you think it would take to cast aside your walls?

You might think... "My goodness then he would have a clear shot at my every vulnerability".

What if you believed in yourself enough that every shot fell at your feet?

We are all a little broken... we're human. The past is done and there is nothing we can do about it, today is what matters for us.

Your trust is especially broken, whether it be alcohol, money, sex, vows... one can't build those back without boundaries, and you can't have boundaries without faith in yourself.

It's never too late for boundaries.

Remember, you cannot set other's boundaries... these are for you, and they must be attainable to be successful.

What boundaries would you set that effectively stops those efforts to hurt you fall at your feet, and allow any positives to reach you?

There are positives... you just may not be aware of them right now, but they are there.


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## sunshinesas

JSMART You could be right and in many ways I am sure you are. I did make a move, twice, we have two wonderful heart felt discussions and I felt we were making progress and things could move forward. When I ask for all the evidence of his EA he threw at me he would have to ask his lawyers advice? When I asked for it I told him I needed closure and wanted him to lay all his cards on the table but he can't. I think he is where I need to be, its over and we need to move on. Your are also right, after two years I too am surprised he hasn't ran off. I think what made me maddest was he is in therapy and won't talk to his therapist but can find some stranger and talk until the cows come in, and therapy was supposed to get things better. I don't really get that.


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## arbitrator

sunshinesas said:


> JSMART You could be right and in many ways I am sure you are. I did make a move, twice, we have two wonderful heart felt discussions and I felt we were making progress and things could move forward. When I ask for all the evidence of his EA he threw at me he would have to ask his lawyers advice? When I asked for it I told him I needed closure and wanted him to lay all his cards on the table but he can't. I think he is where I need to be, its over and we need to move on. Your are also right, after two years I too am surprised he hasn't ran off. I think what made me maddest was he is in therapy and won't talk to his therapist but can find some stranger and talk until the cows come in, and therapy was supposed to get things better. I don't really get that.


*He won't discuss those issues with the therapist because he fears that he will be found "naked" by their mere presence! 

You did or will do the correct thing in filing!*


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## sunshinesas

I guess I don't understand that but its true. But he is in therapy by himself with a really nice therapist and she said its not unusual for latino men not to talk? Yet giving him another excuse. He was in therapy, a safe place, no one else but he won't talk yet can meet some stranger and spill it all I just don't get it at all. Looking from the outside in I think he liked the female attention (and I get that) he even said something to that affect but he swore they didn't talk about "us" and I texted this girl and she said he talked about us and the kids problems. I think he was infatuated getting some female to look at him and talk to him but he crossed the line.


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## Cooper

Sunshinesas I keep seeing the common theme of you trying to understand your husbands behavior and even justify it. You need to stop torturing yourself like this. The guy you married 32 years ago is long gone, this new guy is someone that easily lies to you, easily manipulates your emotions, easily causes you severe emotional pain. This is not a man you would fall in love with today is it? The only way you can stop the emotional misery you are in right now is to wash him out of your life, yes it is difficult, but you keep hoping something bad is going to suddenly seem alright, and that just isn't how it works. 

You don't need all the evidence of his affairs, you don't need names and dates, you don't need to be contacting the OW, you don't need to know how his therapy is going, all that does is drag things out. What you need is to go no contact and start moving forward full speed ahead with the divorce.


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## jsmart

sunshinesas said:


> I guess I don't understand that but its true. But he is in therapy by himself with a really nice therapist and she said its not unusual for latino men not to talk? Yet giving him another excuse. *He was in therapy, a safe place, no one else but he won't talk yet can meet some stranger and spill it all I just don't get it at all. Looking from the outside in I think he liked the female attention (and I get that)* he even said something to that affect but he swore they didn't talk about "us" and I texted this girl and she said he talked about us and the kids problems. *I think he was infatuated getting some female to look at him and talk to him but he crossed the line*.


Many men, I imagine that the type that would be a career military man would doubly apply, are not able to open about their personal issues unless it's with their wife & best friend. The bound between man and wife is powerful to a man. The problem is that you relinquished that role 2 years ago. So he got a stand in.

You say he was infatuated with her but I say he was just starved for female companionship and affection. I doubt very much that he would have went looking for it, if he had it at home. 

Seems like so many love to cheer on going for a divorce but if there is anything worth fighting for, it's your family. You know in your heart that cutting your husband off is what led to this point. You mention power struggles and alcoholism. I know that many men in military circles tend to drink a lot. Could having a wife that is having "power struggles" with you lead you to drink to escape the emasculation?

Not trying to get you mad. Just want you to consider all possibilities. You shouldn't let pride cause you to head straight to divorce. All those cheering you on to divorce are not going to be there for you when it's finally over. 

I know if it were me, who's been married 27 years, together 30, with 4 kids, I would be willing to try again. The single's bars and online dating sites (Yuck) will still be there waiting if I failed.


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## AVR1962

jsmart said:


> .
> 
> Yes, he's being unfaithful but come on, you cut him off sexually for 2 years. How long is a man supposed to be sexually cut off before he goes out and finds another for sex and affection?
> 
> You say want to salvage your marriage yet you don't want to make the first move. I'd bet my next paycheck that you could snatch his heart in a second. No cheap woman that's willing to sneak around with a MM can compete with what you offer. ONLY with you does he have honor. Only with you can future grand kids come to see grand pa & grand ma TOGETHER.


Wives don't sleep in the spare bedroom just for fun. When a spouse has a history of addiction, are controlling, angry, passive-aggressive, emotionally abusive or are seeking others to stroke that enormous ego we lose the love for our spouse bit by bit. When we speak about how these acts have hurt us and how we want these acts to stop and we are either not heard or lied to, again, we continually step away from this person we now wonder if we ever knew. Sure we struggle, we struggle with all kinds of fears....how will my kids do if I leave, what happens to me and my future, how do I make it, what will my friends and family think, and if we are religious we wonder how we can be forgiven or if it is possible, we wonder if we should just stay and make the best of the life as it is. It takes TWO people....COMMITTED to one another and willing to honestly and earnestly work thru the tough times together. That means that OP's husband should be going to AA meetings but does he want to stop or does he even see it as a problem. 

I ran into this same scenario in my own marriage. My ex is an alcoholic who sees nothing wrong with the way he drinks and when I say alcoholic he drinks every day, at least a bottle of wine...sometimes 3-4 other drinks on top of that.....I am surprised his liver isn't pickled yet. He told me he would not stop drinking and he had no problem. That was just a tiny spec of the problem and I suspect the same with OP. My ex would do all kinds of stupid stuff when he was drinking....it got to a point that I would leave the room or even leave the house to get away from his sickening drunken stupors. Like OP, whose OP is/was military, mine was as well and that takes on a whole other hardship with moves and raising kids without the help of your spouse, following his career even when you don't want to and making the best of every situation you are in and every place you are sent. 

So did the OP's husband reach other to other women because he didn't like what was going on at home and decided rather than addressing it he would see what thrilled him, did the responsibility towards his wife and family force him to start seeking other women, or is this just something men do and find it harmless to their marriage because he had no intent to leave his wife even though he she spending no time repairing damages or working on making a relationship with his wife?

So you want to ask if it was possible OP's husband started seeking other women because they weren't having sex. Let me tell you, women are very well aware what makes men happy and wives will do their best to keep their husbands and families happy, to a point of neglecting their own needs many times. When so much hurt and damage has happened without proper resolve a spouse will eventually back away to save themselves any more hurt. OP was hurt, she had needs too but she wasn't seeking other men to satisfy those needs. She did, and probably does, still love her husband and is very torn about the decisions she is making right now.

No relationship works if it is one-sided.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> I guess I don't understand that but its true. But he is in therapy by himself with a really nice therapist and she said its not unusual for latino men not to talk? Yet giving him another excuse. He was in therapy, a safe place, no one else but he won't talk yet can meet some stranger and spill it all I just don't get it at all. Looking from the outside in I think he liked the female attention (and I get that) he even said something to that affect but he swore they didn't talk about "us" and I texted this girl and she said he talked about us and the kids problems. I think he was infatuated getting some female to look at him and talk to him but he crossed the line.


He's not talking to you BUT he is talking to other women. Think about that! He is capable of communication. Too many times we excuse a man's actions saying they can't open up, they do not communicate well. Any man who is seeking other women is communicating.


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## AVR1962

jsmart said:


> All those cheering you on to divorce are not going to be there for you when it's finally over.
> 
> I know if it were me, who's been married 27 years, together 30, with 4 kids, I would be willing to try again. The single's bars and online dating sites (Yuck) will still be there waiting if I failed.


I don't think people are cheering OP for divorce, they are lending support. When a person sits to close to the fire they cannot see clearing thru all the smoke and those of us who have been in these situations, especially those of us who have been married over 20 years and endured years of hurt realize what the path looks like when our spouses refuses to meet half way.

And yes, the dating scene is not alot of fun but is sure as heck beats walking thru the house being ignored by the man who is supposed to love you, all the while he clicks out of windows on the computer or is constantly plugged into his phone and you know very well what he is doing. It just continues to break you down and tear you apart.


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## jsmart

AVR1962 said:


> *I don't think people are cheering OP for divorce, they are lending support.* When a person sits to close to the fire they cannot see clearing thru all the smoke and those of us who have been in these situations, especially those of us who have been married over 20 years and endured years of hurt realize what the path looks like when our spouses refuses to meet half way.
> 
> And yes,* the dating scene is not alot of fun but is sure as heck beats walking thru the house being ignored by the man who is supposed to love you*, all the while he clicks out of windows on the computer or is constantly plugged into his phone and you know very well what he is doing. It just continues to break you down and tear you apart.


Maybe it's not cheering for divorce but It seems like D is advised for to many times. There doesn't seem to be an even handedness. Hammering the square divorce nail into the circular hole seems to be the order of the day here.

Maybe it's the way divorced is glamorized in woman's TV shows, movies, and magazine articles. There is such pressure to break up families. We men are hit on the other direction. We need to man up, honor our word. It's just a sharp contrast to me.

We also need to be careful that we're not projecting our experience on to posters. Do I want OP to stay in a miserable marriage? No, but despite all the negative things she's noted, I still see opportunity. 

Maybe it's my idealistic side but I think OPs husband would jump at the chance to be lovingly married to his wife over this OW. I also think that the thought of growing old with the man that she made vows to and raised kids with, and the chance of being involved in future grand kids together is far more enticing than going through profiles dozens of old, divorced strange men looking for companionship, not to mention the loads of married men looking for hookups.


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## Emerging Buddhist

We all have our experiences and practices that we bring to any thread, some will meet full success with the poster, some a mix, many may not be successful because if there is one commonality, we are not common, even if it seems so with our eyes.

The ones that do seem to have the best chance for success are the ones that have control of the one thing that can matter... ourselves.

Trust has nothing to hide... but there is a reason it gets hidden and it is doubtful it only surfaced a few years ago.

32 years of pride is going to be very hard to heal from, that is why I mentioned walls.

I am not one who believes divorce here is the only path, or even the best path, but if you keep your walls of pride in place, you may never see another path and your 32 years will end anyways.

Dropping those walls is frightening, it takes courage to be sure... and a lot of pain but is it more painful than what you currently face is what has to be assessed.

One give immeasurable growth while enduring the practice, the other may heal you in a different way but your walls and baggage remain because you never fully leave behind the bad baggage or lower the wall enough to toss it over.

You can't take effective action for a solution if your targets remain obscured... but we hesitate to expose ourselves to that direct fire for fear of being wounded, any military man knows that, lives that, breathes that.

But we forget that in our personal lives, every battlefield is not the same... or a battlefield at all.

So walls are built.

I will personally share they can come down if you want them to, and the better you are to see, the less you are to fear.

Sometimes we have to lead by example...


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## turnera

jsmart said:


> We also need to be careful that we're not projecting our experience on to posters.
> 
> Maybe it's my idealistic side but I think OP's husband would jump at the chance to be lovingly married to his wife over this OW.


First, pot kettle much?

Second, show me where you see that he would jump at the chance. Maybe I missed it in this thread?


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## AVR1962

jsmart said:


> Maybe it's not cheering for divorce but It seems like D is advised for to many times. There doesn't seem to be an even handedness. Hammering the square divorce nail into the circular hole seems to be the order of the day here.
> 
> Maybe it's the way divorced is glamorized in woman's TV shows, movies, and magazine articles. There is such pressure to break up families. We men are hit on the other direction. We need to man up, honor our word. It's just a sharp contrast to me.
> 
> We also need to be careful that we're not projecting our experience on to posters. Do I want OP to stay in a miserable marriage? No, but despite all the negative things she's noted, I still see opportunity.
> 
> Maybe it's my idealistic side but I think OPs husband would jump at the chance to be lovingly married to his wife over this OW. I also think that the thought of growing old with the man that she made vows to and raised kids with, and the chance of being involved in future grand kids together is far more enticing than going through profiles dozens of old, divorced strange men looking for companionship, not to mention the loads of married men looking for hookups.


I absolutely agree, ideally Op and the other couples here questioning if they should stay with their spouse would be much happier in life if the problems with the marriage could be addressed and they could move on as the loving family and couple. What I hate to see is women, especially, that have busted their rears and bent over backwards to please and make everyone in their lives, including their husbands, happy only for them to find out that their spouse was cheating and then they unmask a marriage hurt. It is shocking to find out that a spouse has cheated and I am not saying that marriage can't go on after infidelity because it can but some serious issues have to be addressed. I have seen all too many times women brought up in the church or those with low self-esteem stay in wrecked marriages without the proper help.....they fault themselves, make excuses for their husband's behavior, all to keep them in this trap because they don't want to tear up their family, don't know if they can make it on their own, etc. The brain is quite amazing and it can trick you into thinking you make something work if YOU just give a little bit more, be more understanding, be there for your husband. When a person who has dealt with a cheater blames themselves I think they need to look good and hard at that assessment. What did he/she do that drove their spouse to cheat? Is it realistic to think that any none can drive you to cheat? To me that is completely obsurd.. 

If OP and her husband can work thru the issues, great! But she cannot blame herself or let him blame her for his actions. He has to stand accountable for his own actions. 

As far as projection.....we all come to this board with our own experiences that carries into our replies to people here. 

I cannot tell you how many of my friends have gone thru this, or are going thru this. Since my divorce so many of my friends (friends all over being part of a military family) have come forward with their own unhappiness in their marriages. Many of them staying for all the fears I mentioned above but clearly not happy. I hear these women, like OP, and realized I was right there....stuck for many years.


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## Openminded

There's tremendous pressure for women in long marriages to stay until the natural end of the marriage -- until either their spouse dies or they do. When I was first contemplating ending my decades' long marriage (due to another round of cheating) I had absolutely no support from family or friends. They were all very unhappy that I wanted out after all those decades but I was beyond tired of being the only one trying to make our marriage work. I wanted peace in my life. 

My ex-husband was opposed to the divorce. I'm sure in his own way he always loved me but he needed attention from other women and that eventually killed our marriage. After the divorce, he said several times how much he regretted his "mistakes" and wished we were still together but it no longer mattered. I never looked back. 

Can long marriages be turned around? Sure. Does that often happen? Not that I've personally seen in the marriages of my family and friends (all of whom are still together). People admire long marriages and want to see them continue. They think if it's a long marriage then surely it must be a happy one (since you've lasted that long). Not necessarily true. Sometimes it's just long.


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## Emerging Buddhist

When both in a marriage recognize they have brought suffering to the relationship and would like it better, the relationship stands a chance... but all it takes is clarity from one to realize how no matter what, success or failure, that they know the suffering in place needs to be removed. How that happens is up our own recognition in where we accept our shortcomings, what we choose to do with them, and how we remain humble to ourselves as we journey forward.

Divorce may be the path lain at sunshinesas's feet, and that path may be deep in motion... she should be true to herself first. In that journey, one must understand the negative actions around them... we can spend all our time fuming about how wronged we have been or we can focus on something better. 

The simplest is often not the easiest, and we can trap ourselves in it every time doing it anyway because our egos struggle to let go and want to feel justified. A poster here said the OP doesn't need to prove anything, they are absolutely right... closure is something we give ourselves, akin to forgiveness, and that allows us to be the one in control of all future interactions.

How we live with a disappointment of so many challenged years can either wear one out, or teach a better way.

I would like to see sunshinesas walk through this head held high and understanding there are better things ahead no matter which path she walks. If she leaves this relationship as it lies, the important thing is understanding how we stop sharing pain and disappointment and understand how such attachments fail us.

Love doesn't die on its own and both deserve peace... perhaps it's time to cast aside the tally sheet.


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## sunshinesas

Before I start responding to post I want to give you a little background. I went in the Air Force a week out of high school, a homebody young girl, terrified but did it. I had low self esteem most my life, grew up in a violent home and had been abused by siblings; mentally, physically and sexually. I met my husband the last year I was in because the general consensus back then was women only went in the military to find a husband, and I surely wanted to prove that wrong. Met my husband and because he was on one side of the world and I on another, I got out and followed him, 24 years I followed him. Three weeks after marrying I find out he had another woman the entire year plus we were engaged, and the ironic part is he knew I was the one because I was faithful the entire time before we were married and I had plenty of chances not to be but I didn't believe in cheating. He was from a strong latin background, his mom loved me the first time she met me because I was a strong independent woman, unlike her who tolerated a controlling mean man who had multiple affairs. His dad begged him not to marry me because he should marry his race, his religion and a woman that would stay home, have his kids and not open her mouth. Needless to say he loved my strength and attitude so he never took his fathers advice.


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## sunshinesas

We were happy but I look back now and think we didn't have much of a chance. I worked, he was gone all the time and even when home he drank, alot. We fought like cats and dogs. Mostly about money and sex. I was terrible with money and all he wanted was sex. We maintained but those years were some great ones and many bad but I was never going to give up, I loved him and stood by him. He did some pretty awful things to me back then but don't remember the majority because well he was drunk most the time. I held the home together many years alone, I was the strong one. During a extremely difficult time; my son was little and labeled ADHD, we fought terribly every day, the stress was immense, he took a trip home and found someone. Make a long story short, he had a lengthy EA and was planning on divorcing me and moving to Texas. I found out, we stayed together and tried to move forward. I never knew all the details, he wouldn't give them. It was some of the best few months I ever had with him, felt so loved and we talked and we shared. Sadly this was short lived and one sided. After a few months of bliss I gave up, I couldn't do it on my own, he just seemed to sit back and want me to work on things by myself. He reverted back quickly, doing what he wanted, when, with whom, and felt he didn't have to answer to me for anything.


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## sunshinesas

My kids grew up in a home where they witnessed a pretty unhealthy relationship but they thought their parents were awesome. When times were good they were good but the bad seemed to outweigh the good. I am not sure how we got here today. We still fought alot, he still drank alot. We ran on auto pilot I think for most of the time. Kids got grown, daughter left for college, son is thinking about leaving, I took in my niece. Many changes coming. I told him for years if we didn't work on things there would be nothing left to salvage; I begged, pleaded, talked and got pretty much no where. His drinking slowed down alot and he was home way more but there just wasn't a connection. We seemed to have less and less in common and we were starting to live separate lives. He tried in the last two years to get me to do things, go out, find a common ground, I think I just felt so dead and empty inside I didn't know what to do anymore. We slept in the same bed barely touching for two years; I had an actual aversion to sex and his touch, it was scary to feel that way but I felt I was laying next to a stranger.


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## sunshinesas

So this is by no means all the pieces to the puzzle and yep you are hearing just one side of the story.

Have I hurt him, probably more than I know or will ever know because he wasn't able to share any of his feelings the last two years. Did I relinquish my role easily, nope, this has been true hell. He wouldn't and still won't open up to me nor his therapist. 

I too was starved of communication, companionship, warmth and compassion for years. I felt used.

He tells me I emasculated him? When I asked him why he married me knowing I was a strong, independent woman he says "I thought you would change?" Probably not a great place to be when starting off in a marriage. 

I am owning my responsibility to where we are now; I was terrible with money for years, I withheld sex on many occasions, I grew to not trust him on all levels, I built walls. I am accountable.

He doesn't want to be accountable, he wants to sweep it all away and start new? How when you don't have the fundamental basics to even begin? 

I am not looking for another man, not even in my thought process, not in my plan. I would have much rather worked things out with this one and grew old together but maybe there is just to much hurt, to much in the past, that cannot be reconciled. You have to be able to go back to move forward and he doesn't want to tackle that. 

The pain is incredible, anyone been or going through it, knows that.


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## sunshinesas

JSMART-
I am sorry you think he got a stand in because of my dereliction to duty. Went went to therapy together and he refused to address anything, refused to barely speak and continues to do so. I have stood on my head backwards to make things right and would have continued to do so. It can't be one sided. Yes I agree I took away my love along time ago but how long do you continue to give of yourself before you give up and there is nothing left to give. Sex between a couple is important but without any true connection and feeling its just sex and you can get that anywhere, its not what I want. 
He made it perfectly clear upon returning from his last trip, after meeting his "friend", that there was no chance left. How am I supposed to get passed that? I tried, I apologized, I opened my heart and mind and thought we made some headway but he refuses to open up and let it out so I can't go on by myself. 
Yes the history and the what could be or should be is incredibly hard to give up but it isn't a reason to stay and things not change.


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## sunshinesas

AVR1962-We share such similar circumstances, sadly. But I agree with you, I didn't move out of our bedroom the last two plus years, we still slept next to each other until he went on his one of many trips and came back wrapped in an EA, that was the straw. 
Our daughter is a recovering alcoholic and she is well aware he is one too but no one can make him see he has or ever had an issue with drinking. It just isn't enough to know you have memory lapses for many years, things you have no idea to be sorry for because you don't remember, pieces that are missing and never to be found. He still thinks he has no problem even though its not near what it was years ago but its his go to coping mechanism. 
You are right, many years of embarrassing and shameful actions, many years of hurt and anger of what he did drinking, many nights of his stupor and incessant mournful depressive speeches, on auto repeat. My kids say today they wish he would have hit them and got it over because the hours of him repeating his sad stories and emotional outburst when drinking were horrendous and they haven't forgotten it.
Other women, yep, I think he needed the attention, see poor pitiful me, my wife no longer loves me, we don't have sex, she is cold. Also, Hmm-do I still have that charming side to pick up other women, yes and I will prove to her I can replace her rather quickly. Lastly, its easier to get someone new, they have no clue who you are other than what you present you are and don't know your history.
I am still torn, I thought I had this all settled and figured out. I still love him but am realizing slowly he can't be what I need nor want and even saying that is painful.


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## Mr.Fisty

Funny, then you were a novelty for him but once that wore off, he detached mentally and emotionally from you. After a while, he wanted only a vagina, someone to support him while pushing you into the background instead of standing besides him and plus his alcohol issues made a relationship impossible.

Forget Jsmart, he thinks your husband cares about you the person, and he may at one point, but clearly that is no longer the case.

Jsmart blames you for your detachment from someone who wanted you for what you provide, someone that did not want to work on the relationship, someone that walled you off emotionally destroying the connection you had with him through his own volition. You erected barriers after years of pain, neglect and negligence and Jsmart expects you to simply just let another person use you as a blowup doll, hoping that he would want to reconnect which I am guessing did not work in the past.

Realistically, giving him sex would have accomplish nothing except devalue you as an object, not a person to connect with. You were in love with the past him and and the reality was that was a different him through the chemical high of the honeymoon phase. All of his issues starting manifesting itself over the years from his background of how he was raised, his service that has taken its toll. This new woman provides him an escape, something to feel that high.

LOL, and some posters state that sex is what connects them but to whom? If there is no communication, knowing of one another, then the other person just becomes a body as stimulus for lust.

Those two years was you protecting your self from decades of hurt and I am sure you did things that hurts him, but it sounds like a lot of his issues stem way before you came into that picture. IMHO, he got bored of you and when he needed to releive himself, you were a body to use. Clearly he has no compunction cheating on you in the past when things are good and things are bad MOSTLY THROUGH HIS OWN ACTION AND THEN BLAMES IT ON YOU FOR PROTECTING YOURSELF AGAINST THE PAIN THAT HE HAS IMPOSED ON YOU WHEN HE SHUTS YOU OUT.

Sex does not solve any issues when it comes to personal demons, it hooks you in longer and distorts clarity. In this case, it has devalued you over the years.

Ask yourself why you have placed yourself below him for so long, allowed another to treat you poorly. Clearly, he did not care enough about you from freeing you from this misery and could have divorced you but he did not. Even though it may have hurt you at the time, it would have been a kindness because he knew he could not give you the love you needed nor value you as a best friend, companion.


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## sunshinesas

Mr F, you put so much of what I know and feel into words. I am asking myself what is wrong with me that I tolerated things for so long, so much regret, why did I not leave years ago? I know I may get those answers eventually, maybe not. Hell I even ask him why he didn't leave long ago, he says because of the kids but they too would have been better off. 
After this all really hit the proverbial fan in Jan this past year, he started working out, getting healthier, dropping weight, etc. I was too, trying to get healthier, stronger. We talked but barely, I pretty much shut him off. He lost about 25 lbs and one day I was sitting on the porch. Now keep in mind this is after so many conversations of my needs, his unwillingness to change, blah blah blah. He pulls up a chair and ask "can I ask you a favor?" I said ok. He said "can we have sex please, I lost this weight, my libido came back and I am really suffering!" I was in shock, didn't know whether to laugh, cry, scream. So here we are again really, I mean I told you not to touch me, you are a stranger, things are horrible, we have no connection and you ask me to have sex! I couldn't, wouldn't do it and still can't believe he asked me.


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## Mr.Fisty

Says more about him. Context is important. He would have never respected you if you gave in anyways, and only damage your self-worth and dignity.

Just keep improving yourself. No matter with whom he ends up with, he is the same guy, with the same programming and will end up shutting out others no matter whom he is with. There are issues that people bring and sometimes do not manifest themselves at the time so people get hooked into beleiving the one they fell in love with is the real them. There are issues brought on to other later on. You stated you were strong and indepedent as a youth, but to cope with your husband, you change to deal with your situation without realizing it. YThe process is slow so you probably did not notice, but he help mold yu along the way. His neglect proved you did not have that much value as action also communicate as well as words. Him asking you for sex because his pr1ck started working again, not because he wanted to have sex with someone he wants to know on an intimate level and express it.


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## turnera

Your story is a good lesson for readers: you can't escape your parents/upbringing. 

He married you to give his overbearing, unloving dad a big F you. But he still became his dad because that's all he ever saw. You became strong outwardly to counteract the abuse in your childhood, but your mental strength, your ability to value yourself, was missing, as it almost always is when you grow up being abused. So you stayed because you couldn't see that you had the right to matter more.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> AVR1962-We share such similar circumstances, sadly. But I agree with you, I didn't move out of our bedroom the last two plus years, we still slept next to each other until he went on his one of many trips and came back wrapped in an EA, that was the straw.
> Our daughter is a recovering alcoholic and she is well aware he is one too but no one can make him see he has or ever had an issue with drinking. It just isn't enough to know you have memory lapses for many years, things you have no idea to be sorry for because you don't remember, pieces that are missing and never to be found. He still thinks he has no problem even though its not near what it was years ago but its his go to coping mechanism.
> You are right, many years of embarrassing and shameful actions, many years of hurt and anger of what he did drinking, many nights of his stupor and incessant mournful depressive speeches, on auto repeat. My kids say today they wish he would have hit them and got it over because the hours of him repeating his sad stories and emotional outburst when drinking were horrendous and they haven't forgotten it.
> Other women, yep, I think he needed the attention, see poor pitiful me, my wife no longer loves me, we don't have sex, she is cold. Also, Hmm-do I still have that charming side to pick up other women, yes and I will prove to her I can replace her rather quickly. Lastly, its easier to get someone new, they have no clue who you are other than what you present you are and don't know your history.
> I am still torn, I thought I had this all settled and figured out. I still love him but am realizing slowly he can't be what I need nor want and even saying that is painful.


You are seeing the light lady!!! Don't hide from it any more. 

I kept all of what I was dealing with away from my kids and I had no idea what they actually saw with their own eyes. My daughters are all adults now and two have been out of the house and on their own for several years now. My big concern when I finally decided to leave was how this would affect my daughters and how they would react to my news. All my children agreed that it was best to divorce. My youngest actually said, "It is about time." They saw without me saying a word to them. of course they don't know everything and they don't need to. This is their dad and they deserve to have a relationship with him. 

As far as picking up women, you are absolutely right. They put their best foot forward, they blame us for not being interested in them but they are the ones ignoring us at home, not speaking to us days and weeks on end in retaliation (is the way I took it) for not "pleasing" him. 

My ex used humor to find a way to get women to engage with him and when they would respond he would go back for more and pretty soon he had them going to lunch, and when "she" started talking about sex (his words) he called it off.....right!!!!! You know what all leads up to talking about sex? Geesh! Now, in his mid 50's, balding and 50 lbs overweight he still is using these same tactics on the ladies. I am sure some of the ladies in his building avoid him as the fat old lech that he is but I honestly believe there are women who are so desperate and seeking approval that eat the attention right up. I feel bad for these women. Don't be one of them Sunshine, you deserve better. You deserve happiness.


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## Emerging Buddhist

I am sorry, I hadn't realized he had fully and unconditionally gave up, it sounds as he had quit himself a long time ago.

Even so, for your own self love, respect, and worth... remember we are the masters of our own walls.

Pain can fall to our feet when we learn how this affects so many other things.

Peace be with you.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> Mr F, you put so much of what I know and feel into words. I am asking myself what is wrong with me that I tolerated things for so long, so much regret, why did I not leave years ago? I know I may get those answers eventually, maybe not. Hell I even ask him why he didn't leave long ago, he says because of the kids but they too would have been better off.
> After this all really hit the proverbial fan in Jan this past year, he started working out, getting healthier, dropping weight, etc. I was too, trying to get healthier, stronger. We talked but barely, I pretty much shut him off. He lost about 25 lbs and one day I was sitting on the porch. Now keep in mind this is after so many conversations of my needs, his unwillingness to change, blah blah blah. He pulls up a chair and ask "can I ask you a favor?" I said ok. He said "can we have sex please, I lost this weight, my libido came back and I am really suffering!" I was in shock, didn't know whether to laugh, cry, scream. So here we are again really, I mean I told you not to touch me, you are a stranger, things are horrible, we have no connection and you ask me to have sex! I couldn't, wouldn't do it and still can't believe he asked me.


Sunshine, I know your response was directed to Mr F but my fingers want to leap on the keyboard when I read your posts. It's my guess that you you had tried to address issues with your husband for years and felt unheard and when he kept pushing his desire for sex with you, you eventually felt that all you meant to him? An object, as the real intimacy (hand holding, sweet gestures, his interests in you) had long since left. So his goal to get you back in the sack floored you and you realized is focus and it made you feel even less loved by this man. I went thru all this myself and my ex's response was almost identical. 

We had been going thru therapy and our counselor suggested that we make a list of 5 things that were priority for me in my relationship with my husband and I was then to give husband that list. I did, he looked it over and he did the same. On his list he said that I would start sleeping in his bed as man and wife, there would be no more counseling, he would read no more relationship books and I needed to accept him the way he was. I told the counselor that I could not just hop back in my husband's bed like nothing happened and bury my head in the sand. I told him, our counselor, (husband sitting right there) I had felt betrayed with all his shenanigans with other women. Our counselor agreed and told my husband there was no way that I could do this and not feel used because my emotional needs were not being met and he was not doing his part to make me feel loved and wanted by him for anything but sex. It was a male counselor and he came down pretty hard on my husband and told him that he had been emotionally unavailable to his first wife and the children from his first marriage and that was why he had no relationship with his sons and that was what lead to the divorce. he told my husband that I was ready to walk out the door for the very same reason. Did it change him? Did he say he was sorry? Did he try to make things better? No! He became mad at me because I could not do as he had wanted on his list. He did not speak to me for weeks after that.

Ask yourself why you stayed but don't be hard on yourself. We all have our reasons for staying in these dysfunctional situations. I think many times it goes back to our own childhood and how we were treated by pour parents growing up. I know that was the case for me. I married my mother....alcoholic who could not be pleased and was emotionally unavailable. My heart had hardened towards her treatment of me and I became pretty independent but I sought that love I wanted from her from people just like her. We tend to seek what we are familiar to in our family of origin. Getting to the root of that and getting past the hurt makes a big difference in how you relate to others. I was finally able to forgive my mom and that did not mean running back to her, that meant no longer needing her love or approval. When I did that I was able to finally let go of my husband. For the first time I felt like I was stepping into my own life.

You can do this!!!!


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## Emerging Buddhist

I am going to step into the fire here I'm sure, but I've thought about this thread all morning.

Before I get beat up, I am not excusing any behavior that damages self and undermines the relationship, but there is always information that eases in that when a whole picture made, the corners get rounded out and if somebody struggling with far fewer years can glean even a snippet of wealth from a thread, it is worth the time to post.

AVR1962, you know I am one of your supporters as you worked through your own trials... and you know of my path as well.

Such said, when sunshineas shared that her son was ADHD diagnosed, that does place a different view to it whether one likes to see it or not. I'll not pose to know such a large picture in a thread, there is only a snapshot from the last three challenging decades, and while it may be perceived as unfair or ill-received, looking at the hows and why of relationship struggles, both from several views, one has to wonder how it plays into the overall and thus the healing to come.

Alcohol and cheating are destructive crutches no matter which partner has ADD/ADHD, thankfully they never played a part in my current marriage but in review of my past recognize that with compassion and empathy lost, was doubling down on what I knew best and lost myself to transferring the only tools I had at the time, which created a very unhappy and angry individual (myself), and made life miserable for others.

My wife is ADD/ADHD, my daughter severe with some BPD and depression, and from the stories my wife's brothers share... their mother and my mother-in-law probably more like my daughter. When my daughter struggled, my wife's surfaced and it was twice the battle to maintain sanity in the worst way... we were both where you are at 32 years at 16, and something had to change and I had created a codependent disaster, but it wasn't going to easily be the others to change, I could not control such. I compensated with walls, then learned to tear them down to stand open, with full clarity and unafraid...perhaps that is why I mention them so much.

So if I may ask @sunshineas, is there a possibility you or your husband have struggled with this? Since many studies mark as high as 90% of all ADD/ADHD comes from one or both parents, has this played an unrecognized and debilitating factor in your relationship? It doesn't sound like understanding will stop the ending you face, but the important thing is that you need to trust yourself that you have survived a lot, and you will survive this, do not discount what may be the necessary elephant in the challenge you faced to help you land at the peace you deserve.

If you find my words too lofty and not fitting to this situation, I understand... but living in an ADD/ADHD household for an angry and reactive 70% of my marriage and having many years experience since learning to respond differently has opened so many healthier options.

Please remember to practice mindful loving-kindness as you finalize this part of your life, it makes great practice as you step forward on the new path.


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## sunshinesas

EB I am not offended but even though we went through the whole ADHD diagnosis, drugs, therapy, etc I took him off everything when he was 5 1/2 and taught him new ways. He had a high IQ and was terribly bored and if I had to go back and do it again, I would have waited to start him in pre-k. This was a bitter fight in our marriage and almost caused a divorce at the time. I refused to give up on my son and I believed in him and he has done well. I don't know I am ADHD, very detailed oriented. I may be a bit OCD though lol. Husband, no idea, never really noticed that it could be an issue? Sorry not much help on this one.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Then I am honored you took the time to read, thank you.


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## Davidmidwest

Hi,
Sorry to hear that... You are entitled to half his pension, part of his social security, half of all the marital assets, cash, and 1/2 of the home and if each of you own a car, you get one car. Get a lawyer, a credit card in your name if you don't have one. You may get maintenance if you have to take courses for increasing your job skills. Get an attorney. Photocopy anything and everything.

I am going through a divorce. My wife owns the home with my name not on the title, mortgage, deed what have you. She has a IMRF pension to be paid out in three years. One car in my name, one car in both of our names. and for the last ten years I had been paying for Federal taxes for her because she chose not to pay the IRS. So she would not pay the IRS so i had to take extra Fed taxes and pay them for her out of my check. 

We were talking about we using the same lawyer and be amicable, get done cheeply. I told her what I wanted She got very angry that she only makes $28K and I have the potential to make $40K. She thinks I can make more, but I doubt it. I am not employable as a healthcare manager at $80K. I am so industry specific. Anyway... She is angry at me, all i know if things were reversed she would do the same...

I am requesting that I:
1. I Keep the Subaru titled in both our names. 2. She keeps the Ford that is only in my name and attempts to get a loan to make sure I get the Subaru. 3. I get 1/3 of furniture and cooking,dishes stuff, 4. I get $13K of our equity in the home, and somehow, 5. I get a portion of her IMRF teacher pension. Amd the usally split bed sets and furniture etc.

She is angry, I told her I can request this, but doesn't mean I will get it. My lawyer advice 1/2 hour consultation for $25.00 told me this. She is pissed that she doesn't make enough money for living in Chicago and its suburbs. Neither can I, but somehow I can make it work.

It is up to the judge to decide. I could get the Subaru, or the judge will decide who gets the Ford or Subaru. the judge will decide whether I get a portion of her pension. As for a house that she purchased six months before we married in her name. It is 50/50 if I get $13K of the house equity; however if a spouse who is not on the title and or the mortgage could get their share of the equity of the home due to this, The spouse put sweat equity in doing a few repairs, doing yard work and cleaning regularly, plus if both parties co-mingled funds together that paid the mortgage you should be entitled to some equity. It is called transmutation of assets. For Sh*t's and giggles, I am requesting to potentially get reimbursed for paying her Fed taxes from my pay check. The Fed tax reimbursent may be a crap shoot.

All I can do if we use the same lawyer and we can discuss this and come to an agreement, or I refute the distribution that her lawyer disagrees with of what I want. I will have to pay a lawyer for advice to learn how to get what I want or tell me if this is feasible. Her lawyer could tell me something true or untruthful which I will need to verify. I don't have money for a lawyer so I need to do it my self.

What do you think of my wife getting $3K for the divorce from her daughter, her son, her son's live in girlfriend, and three brothers. Each has to chip in $500.00. That I think is o.k. None of my business, but I do know by her accepting the money, she is setting up the preponderance if she regrets the decision, she will know that her entire family got involved in a serious matter by invoking themselves in another's marriage. In my book that is taboo just like cheating, beating up a child, a pet, and spouse beating. You don't have family to help pay, or give advice, or take sides. Very taboo. If you can't afford it, you save the money... No handouts ever. AM I BEING TOO STRICT IN THIS THINKING?


A final note, If you think it's over, or counseling will not work o.k. move on. If it is completely dead all the prayer, counseling, or romance plus flowers will not bring that loving feeling back. I had a rough ten years with my wife. When I woke up one morning feeling naked and ashamed being emotionally intimately close with her I knew it was over. Just picture how Adam and Eve felt between each other and before got by eating that apple. The feeling as being one (in sync) with each other, the Lord, and the land, then losing it. That is how I felt. It can't be fixed. Sad in away. 

Good luck, There is growth and opportunity. If you are lower to mid-fifties you have a lot of hot, hot, loving times, relationships to have, even fall in love again.. be optimistic. Be with friends, volunteer, exercise, and take care of yourself, do something for yourself you have been wanting to do and cross it off the bucket list. Mine is to visit Paris and live a few months there and even hang out in Provence France. Will I get there,? I hope...


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## sunshinesas

I meet my lawyer tomorrow, he had met with the one I had an appt with today so I can't see him. We got through lots of paperwork about the financial side yesterday but something happened tonight. We got into a heated argument and he lost his cool, threatened me and said he wanted to punch me in the face. I didn't back down but now feeling a bit uneasy. I texted him and all he seemed to be worried about is me telling the kids, something else for them to hate him for he thinks. He has only ever been that raging angry once in our marriage, years ago. He told me to leave, I irritate him, I am a b****, I am crazy, I ruined his life, on and on, I never backed down and my poor niece got in between us. Something other than what we argued about set this off; loss, loss of control over everything I don't know what. I fear if he had hit me it probably wouldn't have ended well, for either of us. He acted fairly calm today but seemed bothered underneath, something was lurking. He keeps acting like his life is over and if the kids know this he will have nothing. I told him they love him, maybe upset or pissed but they love him. I thought he was in a better place than I am but evidently not. Sadly he pays a therapist, maybe he should actually talk to her for a change? I am glad my son wasn't here, 6ft 4in, 300 lbs he would have probably took his dad down or tried. Maybe I should have called the cops and had him removed for a day or two but I fear his wrath may be worse. I will speed this divorce with the lawyer tomorrow, this is going somewhere I never expected it to.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> I meet my lawyer tomorrow, he had met with the one I had an appt with today so I can't see him. We got through lots of paperwork about the financial side yesterday but something happened tonight. We got into a heated argument and he lost his cool, threatened me and said he wanted to punch me in the face. I didn't back down but now feeling a bit uneasy. I texted him and all he seemed to be worried about is me telling the kids, something else for them to hate him for he thinks. He has only ever been that raging angry once in our marriage, years ago. He told me to leave, I irritate him, I am a b****, I am crazy, I ruined his life, on and on, I never backed down and my poor niece got in between us. Something other than what we argued about set this off; loss, loss of control over everything I don't know what. I fear if he had hit me it probably wouldn't have ended well, for either of us. He acted fairly calm today but seemed bothered underneath, something was lurking. He keeps acting like his life is over and if the kids know this he will have nothing. I told him they love him, maybe upset or pissed but they love him. I thought he was in a better place than I am but evidently not. Sadly he pays a therapist, maybe he should actually talk to her for a change? I am glad my son wasn't here, 6ft 4in, 300 lbs he would have probably took his dad down or tried. Maybe I should have called the cops and had him removed for a day or two but I fear his wrath may be worse. I will speed this divorce with the lawyer tomorrow, this is going somewhere I never expected it to.


Sunshine, you have to think of your safety. His future with his children obviously feels threatened. Let him know that you will do nothing to keep him from his children and that you both have a right to have a relationship with them. tell him that you do not want either of you to talk to your children about the spouse. Keep you word and hopefully he will keep his.

Is it wise to be living under the same roof at this time? Is this something you can talk to your husband about? Could either one of you stay some other place temporarily to things are settled?


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## jsmart

As the D comes close to happening, it's becoming real. He realizes he's fvcked up and the kids will blame him for the destruction of the family. 

He'll be irrational over you. He's furious because despite all of his grievances, no sex for 2 years and a wife that emasculates him, he knows his world is about to crumble and that he had a huge role in the cause. 

He can't verbalize it because pride and hurt but he knows he's about to lose the love of his life and he's powerless to stop it or control how it plays out.


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## 3Xnocharm

jsmart said:


> He can't verbalize it because pride and hurt but he knows he's about to lose the love of his life and he's powerless to stop it or control how it plays out.


Sorry, but if she really is the love of his life, he would have put a real effort into working on the marriage. It does not sound like he did, from what has been laid out here.


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## AVR1962

3Xnocharm said:


> Sorry, but if she really is the love of his life, he would have put a real effort into working on the marriage. It does not sound like he did, from what has been laid out here.


And might I add, he still has the opportunity (every day in this process) to go to OP, apologize, tell her how he wants the marriage and how he has loved her and is willing to work out their differences.


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## MartinBeck

You state that he lost a lot weight and hit the gym. Is it correct to assume that during that period he also cut back on the drinking? 

If so, he was doing at least one key thing that he knows is important to you and important to the health of the marriage. And when he asks, you still say no to sex. 

This fits into his narrative of the marriage as you as the sexual refuser, and probably to his view of you as the endlessly refusing wife being a big source of both the marital strife and part of the reason he drinks. 

So of course now that he's tried self improvement and focusing on bettering himself, and told you how important it was to him, and you still refused sex, he's very, very angry. 

If less booze was part of his health and fitness push, then he tried making a big positive step and meeting one of your key needs, and tried bluntly communicating his needs, and you still said no. In his mind you're still just not willing to do what it takes for the marriage, so of course he's done.


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## AVR1962

MartinBeck said:


> You state that he lost a lot weight and hit the gym. Is it correct to assume that during that period he also cut back on the drinking?
> 
> If so, he was doing at least one key thing that he knows is important to you and important to the health of the marriage. And when he asks, you still say no to sex.
> 
> This fits into his narrative of the marriage as you as the sexual refuser, and probably to his view of you as the endlessly refusing wife being a big source of both the marital strife and part of the reason he drinks.
> 
> So of course now that he's tried self improvement and focusing on bettering himself, and told you how important it was to him, and you still refused sex, he's very, very angry.
> 
> If less booze was part of his health and fitness push, then he tried making a big positive step and meeting one of your key needs, and tried bluntly communicating his needs, and you still said no. In his mind you're still just not willing to do what it takes for the marriage, so of course he's done.


There is another way to look at this....I do see what you are saying MartinBeck. Could it be that the relationship in the beginning was full of sexual activity and perhaps as young people maybe their relationship was sexually based as often times is the case with young couples. Children and work come along and OP and husband's hormones settle into this state of where they both were before they met, with his being 10x greater than hers which is biologically what is predictable. Husband still wants the sex they experienced before marriage or as newlyweds but OP would like a bit more concentration on family and their relationship beyond sex which again I think is common for both parties. Arguments may have even occurred on this very subject. OP is telling her husband that she needs ______ (maybe his help with the kids or around the house), she feels overwhelmed with the duties as mom trying to balance a career and simply put sex is not #1 on her priority list. I think for a majority of women this is a no-brainer. I would be willing to guess that OP pleased her husband many many times when she was timed, overwhelmed or sick to keep him happy which is also common for women.

Life in the military settles into OP's husband boozing it up with his buddies which I personally have witnessed time and again with the military men especially (part of a military family myself for 27 years) and OP does not like the ugly behavior she sees and she complains about his drinking, maybe she tries to limit it, maybe she walks away but she still doesn't like it. They already have distance from years of other issues which happens in marriage. OP's husband is unwilling to talk about the problems so there is no resolve and OP is not happy because of the years of unresolved issues. Her husband on the other hand is living life like there is no issues because he really never took her serious in the first place or did not see her complaints as his. Communication has broke down and the marriage is slowly deteriorating. he wants sex, she wants the husband she once loved back. The man that used to touch her without it being sexual....hugs and hand holding, and being told she was loved. She wants her husband to be an active father and take responsibility with with rather than being a passive, almost non-existent role in their lives.

He finally realizes he had better change something or she is going to walk. Rather than having a talk with her and telling her, "I know I have let myself go.....I have been drinking too much, I have been lazy and I can see why you have not been attracted to me. I would really like to put on marriage back on track. What can we do as a couple to make this work?" he opted to go to the gym which she might have been thankful for but wondering at the same time what the heck his sudden interest in the gym is all about and perhaps even suspicious that he had ulterior motives (like women seeking). Maybe he did try to cut back on the booze but in all the years together she has seen it before and she knows it won't last she she is just kind of coasting along kind of watching to see what is going to happen with all this. Then he pops out with the statement about losing weight and wants sex. Of course she is going to be befrazzled. These thoughts were not in her head. There were no issues that were resolved in the process.

A wife that is hurt does not just start sleeping in the spare room, nor does she just stop having sex with her husband for no reason. There was trouble in the marriage before these things ever happened. She was unheard, what she tried to do to accept, forgive, fix, please, or resolve the issues were met with deaf ears. She becomes stuck between a rock and a hard place emotionally and she feels like she wants to keep the family together but her needs are not being met by her husband. She is questioning whether she wants to stay, she realizes the man she once knew is no longer the man she is married to. She has spent so much of her time and energy in raising her children and meeting everyone else's needs that she doesn't even know who she is anymore, and more than likely something that had been expressed to her husband. 

OP's brain is still tracking on sex and what he needs to fulfill his sexual desires, priority #1 in his life besides keeping a job to provide a roof over the family. OP is disgusted and feels all he wants of her is sex. She can't give to him anymore because that is all she feels she is to him anymore and maybe as she starts reflecting she feels that maybe that's all she ever was to him. Once a wife feels this I do not think there is any way to go back, especially if there has been any kind of infidelity, porn addiction and husband seeking the attention of other women. She will see that focus and separate herself emotionally from him to save herself. She might not even real what she is going thru. She just knows she can't be with him.

As far the drinking....no one was making OP's husband drink. He made his choices. It is his responsibility to find his way out of his own addiction.


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## MartinBeck

Oh, I don't disagree! I'm sure that your picture of the marriage has a lot of truth, although as always we only have the OP and not the spouse. I'm sure both partners would say that they were repeatedly and chronically not prioritized. 
I'm not familiar with the military party culture she's described, but I have seen a lot of corporate sales organizations that have a frat-like drinking and hookup culture. It gets weird in your late thirties and sad in your forties and is totally incompatible with family responsibilities.
He clearly did not support her and meet basic expectations of fatherhood and sobriety. And yah, nobody wants to sleep with a sloppy overweight chronic drunk.

Although I'm sure if he were here he'd have complaints about her disappearing into the black hole of self-inflicted Mommy Martyrdom and not making an effort at things important to him, sex and otherwise.

But all that set the stage - now it's the brink, or maybe past the brink. My point is that her refusal after he made an effort at both action and communication was an escalation on her part. It explains his lack of interest in reconciliation. If she wants to hold out any hope of continuing in the marriage, then bluntly she needs to blow him on the reg. While of course insisting that he uphold standards and expectations of behavior and while she bluntly insists that her key needs also be met!!! 

Cutting him off is an escalation move and is a strong signal to him to move on and end it - just like if he (say) stopped depositing his paycheck and cut her off financially. You don't do that until you're done.

If she just truly can't bring herself to have sex with him, then she needs to come to the sad understanding that the relationship is really over and she cannot be married to him.


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## TheTruthHurts

MartinBeck said:


> Oh, I don't disagree! I'm sure that your picture of the marriage has a lot of truth, although as always we only have the OP and not the spouse. I'm sure both partners would say that they were repeatedly and chronically not prioritized.
> I'm not familiar with the military party culture she's described, but I have seen a lot of corporate sales organizations that have a frat-like drinking and hookup culture. It gets weird in your late thirties and sad in your forties and is totally incompatible with family responsibilities.
> He clearly did not support her and meet basic expectations of fatherhood and sobriety. And yah, nobody wants to sleep with a sloppy overweight chronic drunk.
> 
> Although I'm sure if he were here he'd have complaints about her disappearing into the black hole of self-inflicted Mommy Martyrdom and not making an effort at things important to him, sex and otherwise.
> 
> But all that set the stage - now it's the brink, or maybe past the brink. My point is that her refusal after he made an effort at both action and communication was an escalation on her part. It explains his lack of interest in reconciliation. If she wants to hold out any hope of continuing in the marriage, then bluntly she needs to blow him on the reg. While of course insisting that he uphold standards and expectations of behavior and while she bluntly insists that her key needs also be met!!!
> 
> Cutting him off is an escalation move and is a strong signal to him to move on and end it - just like if he (say) stopped depositing his paycheck and cut her off financially. You don't do that until you're done.
> 
> If she just truly can't bring herself to have sex with him, then she needs to come to the sad understanding that the relationship is really over and she cannot be married to him.




I disagree. I don't think its escalation but rather disengagement. Very different. Escalation is manipulation and reaction to someone else - it's about the other. Disengagement is withdrawing into self - it's about focusing on your own wellness.

TAM members routinely advise disengagement to protect oneself - the 180 - in situations of abuse and infidelity.

If there is any impact on the other it is to draw them in to better understand your unmet needs and cause them to think about why you are disengaging (but this should not be the intent of the 180 or you're back to manipulation)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MartinBeck

Hmm. Disengagement / "180" is a short-term escalation tactic to prepare yourself mentally and emotionally for the divorce and to potentially shock the offending parter/spouse into waking up about the critical urgency of the unmet needs. 

Disengaging for years is both incredibly cruel to the spouse and a sign of lack of willingness to get out of their comfort zone to actually pull the trigger and divorce. You can't be disengaged and simultaneously hoping for reconciliation for 2+ years and expect a magic turnaround in outcome.

In OP's case, the husband sounds like a terrible guy, but the OP needs to acknowledge that her historical role as sexual refuser is not compatible with her stated desire for reconciliation.


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## jsmart

I guess it may be that the sexes see OP's issue from different perspective. Only hearing her side, I can see that her husband has had many issues that caused OP to become resentful for many years. That resentment led to her emotionally abandoning her husband. 

As a man, I find OP's withholding of sex for not only 2 years but the way she wielded it throughout the marriage to get her husband to submit to her as something that drove a high drive man to numb himself from the pain with the bottle.

As a traditional male, her husband didn't do well with constantly being emasculated by a wife that wanted to wear the pants. Top it off with him being high drive and her using sex as a weapon, you end up with a man that resorts to destructive outlets. 

Many posters here want to minimize OPs role in the demise of the marriage. There is no doubt that her husband fvcked up over and over but we have realize that actions cause reactions. Sometimes we have be accountable for not only our actions but also the reaction we get .

Now they're both at the end of the road and despite hurting each so deeply, they both regret that their at this point.


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## AVR1962

I guess it is all speculation without having them both here, just as it is in most of the posts here on TAM. I just wonder how much of Op's husband's behavior was already in place before she ever met him and how many red flags she passed up while dating him?


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## jsmart

In the beginning of a relationship we over look red flags because our brains are over dosing on the chemicals our brains release with new "love." With her husband being more traditionalist and she being more of a modern "strong" woman, the fireworks that these opposites created must have been amazing in the beginning.

I can't fully understand a woman's perspective but as a man, can understand some of what may have drove her husband to become destructive. I've dated a modern, hear me roar, girl in my past. We argued and disagreed a lot. Most times it really pissed me off but there were times that I admired her spunkyness. One thing she never did was use her sexuality as a weapon to get me to bend to her will. Actually, the sex was intense and she had a soft side to her that made dealing with her ball busting all worth it. 

I think that OP's husband got the emasculation but there was no balance of an affectionate wife that sexually rocks your world. So he self medicates by drinking and looked for affection anywhere he could get it.


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## Davidmidwest

Hi UPDATE;

I am not sure what dollar amount you would get from your ex-spouse when they retire, but you have to check. If it is like anything like Social Security, if you re-marry you do not get to participate in it's distribution to him. Check with your legal adviser. All I know the women who are taking part of their ex-spouses railroad pension and Catapillar. The the once seeking to collect their fair share of the pension is void if they re-marry; therefore, the woman had told me that they will never, ever remarry for that reason, but doesn't mean they can't be in love and have all the other benefits. You just don't remarry.

If your ex-spouse takes early retirement at 62 or 65 or later, you can claim some of their Social Security, maybe take the higher amount to equal his or hers if yours is lower, from his benefit he paid in only if you never remarry. I don't know how much money you will get for sure, it depends, your benefit may be higher than theirs. If you do tag onto his Social Security at age 62 you can only make $15000 - $18000 a year, but after age 65 you can earn is as much money you want, no penalizing limit. 

If a spouse only had their name on a premarital home, and had, or chose, or then refinanced after you re-married without you. You didn't and she didn't not put your name on the title and the mortgage, as co-owner or as co-borrower THREE things can happen. 1. The judge could say you have no claim no matter if the house lost or gained equity. You will not get a dime even though the co-mingled funds went to pay the mortgage. 2. The judge may force the sale if the stay at home spouse is too old, whatever that means, has no assets and no earning potential so that he or she can get educated to find a good job if young enough. If one is older and maybe around 60 or above, the judge may force liquidation of everything to split everything 50/50, or 60/40 it all depends. The judge will not make anyone less able to support themselves in the judges decision. We may not like the decision, but just think, how far would we go. Think about the parable about the bible guy who was stopped from sacrificing his new born to GOD, or the Egyptian king saying to a divorcing couple arguing about who want's the kid more and was about to cut the baby in half. 3. The judge can say you are entitled to some equity of the pre-marital property home because both of you commingled income to pay the mortgage and support the household, called transmutation which makes you a co-owner because you contributed financially. It depends on state law. My wife's lawyer and my legal adviser said it is a 50/50 chance. In Illinois some get it and some don't. I guess it is up to give prove that you helped provide.

I think if you have been married twice or more, never go into a commingled financial situation , never own property with anybody, and do not enter a marriage contract, a domestic partner contract again. It sucks not having cash to prevent oneself from not having food or not being able to pay for emergency lodging, no money to vacate if situation gets bad, and you have the slightest chance of becoming homeless. It can or will happen at least twice in you life. In addition, it sucks too if you get kicked out, divorced again and spend a lot of money for home furnishings again is rough. After your third divorce, the divorce don't hurt. This hurts" " I can't believe I got myself in this mess again, Sh*t, I got to start over, I got no assets, and then if you have to stay in the same house at the benevolence of who filed first, and they are the sole person on the title adds fire to the situation, You can't tell the off or why you are divorcing because either spouse don't care for your reason for the divorce. They are only going by their own frame of reference and it is very hard to keep you mouth shut. It is the usual, "Who cares what you think." We all want to tell the person how they wronged us so bad and we want be heard for once in the marriage, we try. If trying to be heard didn't work when you are married it will not work while you are divorcing. It is best to keep it to yourself and grow to be the person you love and to become lovable again. That is the thing that makes me the most angry no matter who is at fault. 
Thanks for reading this novel.
David


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## turnera

jsmart said:


> I guess it may be that the sexes see OP's issue from different perspective. Only hearing her side, I can see that her husband has had many issues that caused OP to become resentful for many years. That resentment led to her emotionally abandoning her husband.
> 
> As a man, I find OP's withholding of sex for not only 2 years but the way she wielded it throughout the marriage to get her husband to submit to her as something that drove a high drive man to numb himself from the pain with the bottle.
> 
> As a traditional male, her husband didn't do well with constantly being emasculated by a wife that wanted to wear the pants. Top it off with him being high drive and her using sex as a weapon, you end up with a man that resorts to destructive outlets.
> 
> Many posters here want to minimize OPs role in the demise of the marriage. There is no doubt that her husband fvcked up over and over but we have realize that actions cause reactions. Sometimes we have be accountable for not only our actions but also the reaction we get .
> 
> Now they're both at the end of the road and despite hurting each so deeply, they both regret that their at this point.


You keep saying things like emasculation and sex as a weapon, but you fail to take into account that women don't 'turn on' sex typically for sex's sake; they have an emotional component that is necessary for almost every woman to even WANT to have sex, much less endure it from a man who's been hurting her. It's a very complex relationship. Things like assault and rape and shame and submitting and men being more aggressive and anger and manipulation and threats are often involved once the woman has retreated out of self-safety.

Men often rush to say 'just give it to him for God's sake! don't be such a b*tch!' when we could have just as often rushed to say 'treat her as well as you treated her when you were dating and she WOULD!'

Women don't choose to withdraw emotionally; they do it as their "Love Bucket" is depleted and filled with holes from all the Love Busters, so any love left in that bucket just flows out all of those holes. As she has described. So having sex with a person who hurts you is especially painful for a woman. Men, probably not so much, since they have the urge and the erection and just need to get it done.

She didn't just up and decide to withdraw.


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## 3Xnocharm

turnera said:


> Women don't choose to withdraw emotionally; they do it as their "Love Bucket" is depleted and filled with holes from all the Love Busters, so any love left in that bucket just flows out all of those holes. As she has described. So having sex with a person who hurts you is especially painful for a woman. Men, probably not so much, since they have the urge and the erection and just need to get it done.


QFT!


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## Mr.Fisty

turnera said:


> You keep saying things like emasculation and sex as a weapon, but you fail to take into account that women don't 'turn on' sex typically for sex's sake; they have an emotional component that is necessary for almost every woman to even WANT to have sex, much less endure it from a man who's been hurting her. It's a very complex relationship. Things like assault and rape and shame and submitting and men being more aggressive and anger and manipulation and threats are often involved once the woman has retreated out of self-safety.
> 
> Men often rush to say 'just give it to him for God's sake! don't be such a b*tch!' when we could have just as often rushed to say 'treat her as well as you treated her when you were dating and she WOULD!'
> 
> Women don't choose to withdraw emotionally; they do it as their "Love Bucket" is depleted and filled with holes from all the Love Busters, so any love left in that bucket just flows out all of those holes. As she has described. So having sex with a person who hurts you is especially painful for a woman. Men, probably not so much, since they have the urge and the erection and just need to get it done.
> 
> She didn't just up and decide to withdraw.



I agree. Not like he wanted to connect to her and work through their issues. Giving him sex does not solve anything, only degrades the OP into a hole to fill for her H. Years of stone walling her, the therapist. Plus, we do not know if he is emasculated because he dains to stand up for herself and needs to work through their issues instead of just submitting to his whims. He thought she would stop having hher own opinions after marriage and her own voice afterall like his mother and turned into his own father which he has issues with. OH, and he threatened to punch her in the face, she gave up her career to support his, she forgave him the first infidelity and here he is, thinking rug sweeping his own faults and mostly sex will solve everything at one point. Nope, that requires communication and changes in thoughts and behavior.

I am suprise some just ignored his threats to do bodily harm to his supposed love one. I am sure she has her issues and she will need tow work on that, but lets not pretend that he does not devalue her either. LOL, his male ego and how she should handle that with TLC because he is male, when he so far does more to invalidate her as she has pushed for many years for him to work on himself and she is not worth that either. Is there a version of emasculate for females?


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## turnera

Mental abuse.


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## TheTruthHurts

Let's not assume this is a male/female perspective thing.

I'm aligned with the women here because I see H as an abusive, alcoholic d-bag


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AVR1962

jsmart said:


> In the beginning of a relationship we over look red flags because our brains are over dosing on the chemicals our brains release with new "love." With her husband being more traditionalist and she being more of a modern "strong" woman, the fireworks that these opposites created must have been amazing in the beginning.
> 
> I can't fully understand a woman's perspective but as a man, can understand some of what may have drove her husband to become destructive. I've dated a modern, hear me roar, girl in my past. We argued and disagreed a lot. Most times it really pissed me off but there were times that I admired her spunkyness. One thing she never did was use her sexuality as a weapon to get me to bend to her will. Actually, the sex was intense and she had a soft side to her that made dealing with her ball busting all worth it.
> 
> I think that OP's husband got the emasculation but there was no balance of an affectionate wife that sexually rocks your world. So he self medicates by drinking and looked for affection anywhere he could get it.


"Modern, hear me roar woman?" Sounds to me like you think women should be submissive to their husbands? 

Personally I do not understand this kind of thinking. It's accepted that husbands will seek a lover because he was rejected by his wife? When a man and woman are dating if the girl tells the man she is seeing that she does not want sex that night, or wants to wait until marriage, it seems the men are more respectful of the women's wishes but once they say "I do" it seems to change the picture for many men. It is almost as if these men feel that their wife is their property to serve and to please them. Is that what you think a woman should be for her husband JSMART? Is that why the term "modern women" is said in a demeaning way? Are women not to have thoughts and feelings or be assertive in your opinion? 

I have been married twice. My first husband was my high school sweetheart and we were constantly together, even worked together, always entwined in one another, truly in love. There was no lack of sex even as we had children. My husband was very sexual but he could show me affection aside from just sex, we could talk and we did in length. Not long into the marriage he wanted to start having 3-somes and swing which I was against and refused. We would have sex several times in one day. If, for whatever reason, 3 days would pass and I told him I was tired he would go into a rage and tell me he was going to go out looking for it some other place and would leave. I started just doing what he wanted to do, when he wanted to do it to keep him happy, no 3-somes or swinging though. In our 7th year of marriage I caught him in an affair and then found out that he had cheated on me our entire marriage. This was a man who could not be satisfied sexually. He was looking for notches on his belt to make him feel good about himself. His behavior tore up our marriage. He went on and did the same in his second marriage where he had more children and it tore up that marriage to. His second wife did allow 3-somes, it still did not keep him faithful.

My second marriage was to a military man who I was married to for 24 years. I saw the red flags in the beginning, we would talk and he always had an excuse and he placed a great deal of blame on his exwife and he had me convinced that she had issues. I supported him and his anger towards his ex. Some things were odd though, I would try to hold his hand and he dropped it. I told him I loved him and he told me he wasn't ready to say that but he also didn't want us to stop seeing each other. We'd go to a party with his military buddies and he'd leave me to socialize by himself. He invited me to functions and then when I would show up he had changed his plans without telling me. All the while I am addressing all these issues. The very first date we went to a restaurant and he was very flirty with the waitress and couldn't take his eyes off her. I told him that he might as well have asked her for her # and he said it was nothing. As things played out with me and I found more and more of things seeming odd I started asking more questions about his past and how he related to women as a teenager and in his marriage. He would not ask girls out for fear of rejection but instead would lust over them and become sick in his stomach when he saw them with another guy, yet he had not even spoke to the girl. He married his first wife because she was pg but was kissing on her girlfriends and trying to get them into conversation. He felt she should be at home with their kids, cooking and cleaning but was upset that she wasn't helping out with the bills. He would go out with the guys drinking without calling her. Very much into porn for a teenage boy and it was porn that he went to for sex. He was not relating to me sexually. It was me going to him a majority of the time and I was supposed to keep him happy and when I did not I got the silent treatment. These games played out for years all the while he was chasing other women. One day I finally woke up and realized all I was to this man was a sperm receptacle, cook, nanny and housekeeper. I am sure that he has told all his buddies I sure was not interested in having sex with him and wonders why even though I was very clear about my feelings and my needs in the marriage.

So I guess I don't understand the male brain that can justify this type of behavior and blame their wife. To me it seems that a spouse who can cheat on his wife (or vise versa) is not capable of love or compassion.


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## MartinBeck

My point is if she wants to divorce the guy, then she needs to pull the trigger and do it. If she wanted to reconcile, she needed to start having sex. If she can't bring herself to have sex with him she needs to realize that it's over.


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## sunshinesas

WOW. Not sure I can cover all these responses. EMASCULATE, the new male buzz word and if I have to hear it one more time I may toss my cookies. What is the female equivalent? If men think the little woman is here on this earth to satisfy their every need then they haven't evolved in the last 100 years. I will say again we are equally at fault for where we are today. I emotionally and physically disengaged over two years ago, I shut down completely. I could no longer deal with the hurt, anger and pain. This wasn't a news flash for him, we had the same discussion over and over, read the books, etc. I just couldn't (not sure I can now) get through to him that I wasn't just a walking vagina. He isn't a terrible man, he is a good man with some terrible issues. He never completely stopped drinking and probably won't. He didn't get fit to attract me, I started before him and he had some health issues and knew losing 25-30 lbs would help, it did. He was depressed many many years, especially in the fall/winter time and drinking was his go to medication (it made it worse). I never refused sex as a way to make him submit to anything, I refused because I had no connection; he was not good at affection, only sextion! He couldn't have or give a back rub/massage without a boner and once that happened that was the priority and that happened in about 3 minutes. Yes he is high drive and me maybe medium but really you can't learn to touch your wife affectionately without something in return. He had zero compassion for me and I never trusted him to be able to take care of me if I was ill, be it a day or a week (except when my son was born and he was awesome). I took care of him through multiple surgeries, illnesses, aches/pains, drunken puking stupors so shame on me for wanting him to maybe take care of me sometime huh? There were red flag but when your young your dumb and don't see them. And if he was anxious to have sex why is he still here waiting two and half years later? He could have went and got it anytime I am sure; he is still an attractive man and holds his own.


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## sunshinesas

MB-"My point is if she wants to divorce the guy, then she needs to pull the trigger and do it. If she wanted to reconcile, she needed to start having sex. If she can't bring herself to have sex with him she needs to realize that it's over."
So tell me why after over two years he didn't pull the trigger? Reconciliation will not start with sex, there needs to be a relationship and if it can't happen in that order its a mute point.


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## TheTruthHurts

sunshinesas said:


> WOW. Not sure I can cover all these responses. EMASCULATE, the new male buzz word and if I have to hear it one more time I may toss my cookies. What is the female equivalent? If men think the little woman is here on this earth to satisfy their every need then they haven't evolved in the last 100 years. I will say again we are equally at fault for where we are today. I emotionally and physically disengaged over two years ago, I shut down completely. I could no longer deal with the hurt, anger and pain. This wasn't a news flash for him, we had the same discussion over and over, read the books, etc. I just couldn't (not sure I can now) get through to him that I wasn't just a walking vagina. He isn't a terrible man, he is a good man with some terrible issues. He never completely stopped drinking and probably won't. He didn't get fit to attract me, I started before him and he had some health issues and knew losing 25-30 lbs would help, it did. He was depressed many many years, especially in the fall/winter time and drinking was his go to medication (it made it worse). I never refused sex as a way to make him submit to anything, I refused because I had no connection; he was not good at affection, only sextion! He couldn't have or give a back rub/massage without a boner and once that happened that was the priority and that happened in about 3 minutes. Yes he is high drive and me maybe medium but really you can't learn to touch your wife affectionately without something in return. He had zero compassion for me and I never trusted him to be able to take care of me if I was ill, be it a day or a week (except when my son was born and he was awesome). I took care of him through multiple surgeries, illnesses, aches/pains, drunken puking stupors so shame on me for wanting him to maybe take care of me sometime huh? There were red flag but when your young your dumb and don't see them. And if he was anxious to have sex why is he still here waiting two and half years later? He could have went and got it anytime I am sure; he is still an attractive man and holds his own.




Hey chill - you're going to get all kinds of opinions and frankly a lot of people here get the scab pulled off with a simple word or phrase. The good part is you get a lot of viewpoints and maybe some is useful.

I've not experienced infidelity so am not triggered but I completely understand those who are.

I'll explicitly say I hear you and I've got nothing negative to say about your behavior except you are too forgiving and codependent to have seen clearly earlier. So take the good from the marriage, work through the bad and get someone who is more an equal next time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MartinBeck

It sounds like both of you are dug in and entrenched in your positions. Since you're the 1/2 of the marriage that we can reach here, we can ask only you to consider making a change and making a different move that what you've been playing for the past two years. My suggestion is to try a sex event and see if it breaks the impasse and engenders further conversations and moves towards reconciliation. But if you can't, then you can't.


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## sunshinesas

I finalized the paperwork today, the lawyer will file tomorrow, two-three weeks for temp hearing. I wish I could say it was a relief, just another painful step in a path wrought with pain. Guess I can eventually move this thread to "separating/divorcing". Peace.


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## sunshinesas

MB Not sure how making a sex move would solve anything, I think at this point it would just be uncomfortable all around.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> I finalized the paperwork today, the lawyer will file tomorrow, two-three weeks for temp hearing. I wish I could say it was a relief, just another painful step in a path wrought with pain. Guess I can eventually move this thread to "separating/divorcing". Peace.


Hang in there Sunshine! There will be adjusting to do after everything is said and done but you will free to live a life of your own and make the choices for yourself. It will be a time of positive growth for you. Surround yourself with only those who can support what you are doing, that includes mutual friends, friends on FaceBook, etc. You have to save your sanity so you might find you have to say good-bye to certain people who support him and that's okay.After so many years together,even though there will be relief when you finally walk away, there will be some emotionally untangling left. I went no contact with my ex, it's been not quite 6 months now.


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## sunshinesas

Thanks AVR I meet my therapist today, been a while. I am still so confused because I continue to feel if this marriage were dead (over two years now) and he can't be the husband I need and the partner I want why does it continue to hurt so much, shouldn't it be easy to walk away.


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## AVR1962

sunshinesas said:


> Thanks AVR I meet my therapist today, been a while. I am still so confused because I continue to feel if this marriage were dead (over two years now) and he can't be the husband I need and the partner I want why does it continue to hurt so much, shouldn't it be easy to walk away.


I sure do understand and that didn't leave the minute I walked out the door either. I realized that I was truly committed to this man and that I felt that I would be by his side thru thick and thin which I was. I endured a great deal thinking that as long as we could just keep it together that one day it would all work out but the violations to the marriage never stopped no matter how much we talked, how much counseling we had together. One of my counselors told me my husband was passive-aggressive so I read a book on PA, I showed him the book, talked, read thing to him, he read the book and he could identify with it and he did seek help....help for himself and joint counseling but he could not break free from his ways. 50+ years of living like he had if there was the slightest bit of anything that made him upset he reverted right back to his old ways. I saw there was no possibly way for change. He was not meeting my needs and I had felt lonely for years. I had a choice...I could either live like roommates with this man for the sake of having a roof over my head or I could get out and try to find a new life for myself. Right up until the day I left I continued to cook and try to engage him in conversation. We lived in the same house for 8 months from the time I contacted the attorney. We'd had many conversations about the relationship needing to be mutual but he could not give. I became more of an observer in that last 8 months. He had so much opportunity but he chose to plug himself into his electronics, go where ever as he wanted and he chose to ignore me which was typical and as he did this I reflected on a life I had spent raising 5 children while he pretty much did the very same thing. I was his caretaker and quite honestly I think the only reason we married was out of convenience on his part. He had sole custody of his two sons and I never saw that he actually wanted to raise his boys but I came along eager and willing. I was the one chasing him and making excuses for his actions, I supported his lies, I drove for him when he drank and I partied with him for a very long time. I was the one that changed. I opened my eyes to the truth. I felt such obligation to this man and I could not let go of that obligation, the reason I still cooked for him until I left. I did keep wishing that I would hear the words, "I messed up, I can see it now. I know I hurt you and I am sorry. I have been a terrible father and husband. I have a real problem with addiction and I can see why you wanted to leave me." Instead though I got nit-picking from him on every word of the divorce decree, him wanting it changed repeatedly which basically burned up all the money I paid towards attorney fees, and more. I hurt him so he sought revenge which is the dance we played our entire marriage. 

The holidays were tough and now Valentine stuff is out in the stores and I think of the times I had my husband to share these occasions with but unfortunately my mind wants to recall the good times not the times when I searched for cards or a gift to buy for a man that I had no more love or trust for. We get used to our very strange living circumstances, we adjust even if it is not healthy. To finally walk out after so many years takes a great deal of strength.

My last counselor was awesome! Once she realized I was definitely not going back to my husband she told me that as I sat in her office the first time telling her what I had been thru in my marriage she said she wanted to tell me to run. I reflect on that day and how calm and detached I was as I told her about my marriage, it was almost like looking at someone else's life. I had become so numb to my own feelings. I was emotionally dead. I was diagnosed with PTSD which she helped me thru. She told me my husband was narcissistic and at the time I could not see it. Once I left I bought a very good book on narcissism and boy oh boy do I ever see it now. I realize too that he has no capability to treat another person any different. He is the perpetual victim and it was my rearing by a mother just like himself that allowed me to cater to such a selfish man who had no compassion for me. I am the type that who is very caring and compassionate and always willing to help others but there are many of people out that willing to abuse that generosity. Relationships have to be mutual in all ways, they have to be a working effort on both parts. My marriage never was.

Surround yourself with those who can support you. Read about narcissism and passive-aggressive behavior if you think it might fit, keep focus on you and what you need to be healthy and on your own. Don't mention anything to anyone that you feel would try to keep you from leaving, if that is what you want. Mutual friends are going to have some trouble with this and they will try to stand by you both but it is real hard to see pics of your STBX or your ex (future) in a pic with some "friend" that stood by your side to support you and you had no idea that they were in touch. I had to let some people go, blocked my ex on FaceBook, went no contact all to relieve my own stress and help me get on with my own life. I did not want reminders of my ex. My relationship with his family had been severed many years ago so that part was easy. We had truly lived very separate lives for a long time. It was just a matter of me letting go of the obligation (which I have done now) and I have to stop reminiscing of the good as it did turn very bad, and I had to realize this man was not capable of love which I very much needed, I realized too that I would never get validation or an apology as this man was not capable. In his eyes he was the victim because I could not make him happy. I had stopped supporting him, stopped chasing him. And since I left I have stopped wanted things to be different between us but it took awhile. 

I now making new friends....I moved away....did not want the slightest chance of running into this man and I wanted to be closer to my daughters who are adults. Being with my children and grand children has been real helpful. I spend a great deal of time working which I find productive and helpful. I am starting to develop my own interests outside of the marriage and I actually have had the opportunity recently to talk to a couple gentlemen who I have been able to laugh with and enjoy their company.

You are strong! You can do this!!! There is light at the end of this tunnel...keep heading towards that light!!!


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## sunshinesas

Update: they served him tonight and I didn't cry. I am cried and talked out. I gave my whole heart one last ditch effort today to save this marriage and try to work things out and I got the 2x4 I needed to make me realize I was fighting by myself. He apologized but wants to set me free, not hold me back. I apologized and let him know I spent the last several months worried about him more than me and how he would keep going and now I am going to worry about myself. He isn't going to change, doesn't know how and is at a total loss, very very sad. But I wish him to stop being a victim, a martyr and make a life for himself but I can only wish if he doesn't its not on me. So this is a relief after months of emotional turmoil and I know I can now be strong and let go. I need to know how to move this to "divorcing" if anyone can tell me. Thank you all, there is such wonderful insightful folks here and I know this will still be hard but I just now know I am going to make it.


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## aine

sunshinesas said:


> Update: they served him tonight and I didn't cry. I am cried and talked out. I gave my whole heart one last ditch effort today to save this marriage and try to work things out and I got the 2x4 I needed to make me realize I was fighting by myself. He apologized but wants to set me free, not hold me back. I apologized and let him know I spent the last several months worried about him more than me and how he would keep going and now I am going to worry about myself. He isn't going to change, doesn't know how and is at a total loss, very very sad. But I wish him to stop being a victim, a martyr and make a life for himself but I can only wish if he doesn't its not on me. So this is a relief after months of emotional turmoil and I know I can now be strong and let go. I need to know how to move this to "divorcing" if anyone can tell me. Thank you all, there is such wonderful insightful folks here and I know this will still be hard but I just now know I am going to make it.


You have taken the first step, just put one foot in front of the other. There is no timetable, this can be done in your own time when you are good and ready. Take care of yourself, pamper yourself, enjoy each day as it comes.


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## AVR1962

Sunshine, keep your focus on what you want for you. Maybe you don't know the future but if it is getting out that you want, focus on that. There will be bumps but trust me, trust me it does get better. When you say your last good-byes the freedom you will feel is unspeakable!!! Trust in yourself!!!


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## sunshinesas

I don't trust anything in this moment. I feel so weak and pathetic. I have been physically ill the last two days from crying. I am so strong but yet feel like I am losing it and that I can't take one more thing. I feel like I am dying and desperately clawing to come out of this hole. Why? I have no answers to the questions and won't get any, no resolution. I just keep hoping I can make it through the hearing in a few weeks. All feels lost. I know this is part of grieving but some days I can't see any end and it feels like forever. Sorry just a really bad few days.


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## AVR1962

Sunshine, it is okay to have those bad days. Those bad days will make you stronger. The process is like being on a roller coaster. As the end gets closer you are looking forward to getting off the ride but at the same time you are not sure what tomorrow might bring. Being in the state of conflict right now where you are living under the same roof adds to confusion. You want to keep your old life but you wish things were different in the relationship, yet you logically can reflect and see that as much as you want the change that all the years together tells it is not going to happen. Picking up items, seeing pictures brings back good and bad memories.....it is a real mix. And at the same time when he walks thru that door there is dread and you wish you could escape- now. Putting up with the habits and behavior you have learned to live with but annoy you will soon be behind you. 

Do you have any lady friends you can spend some time with? Having a wonderful support system in place where you can call on a good friends really helps!!!


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## 3Xnocharm

I cried every single night for a solid month when I left my second husband, even though I was the one ending it, and for good reason. Its still hard to lose someone you once loved so much, and for your life to not go as you had planned. Let yourself feel it for a while, you have to go through this in order to heal, unfortunately. Little by little, you will start feeling better, I promise.


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## turnera

You know that you can call 911, right? Tell them you're in a really bad place, and at least they will take you to a hospital where someone will take care of you and give you someone to talk to and care about you. Please consider it. You seriously need some antidepressants.


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## sunshinesas

Update-Its been a hell of a ride but I am now much calmer and can see clearer. We forwent the temp court hearing (wish I wouldn't have) and are pending mediation 6 April. I still have sad/bad days but they get fewer and farther between, on occasion something will punch me in the heart but I am dealing with things much better. We are slowly going through the house, items, etc and he has been a PIA the whole time; defensive, wanting to be in control, uncooperative, actually odd for someone that wants it over? I have written a few letters, trying to reach him, trying to get some closure and its been a big waste of time. I get the same standard BS answers over and over; he did nothing wrong, thought it was ok to have a secret female friend (not), he doesn't have a drinking problem and of course he has blamed me for just about everything (as i expected), then he blamed the kids, then a curse his Aunt put on us when we got married (that was really reaching for a Christian man, I had forgotten all about it and thought it was pretty hilarious). He can't change because in his eyes he never did anything wrong. I have worked hard on me and my issues, found many of what I thought were my issues were manifested by him and those that weren't I own, I am working on me everyday. I look forward to the end, its taking quite a while and not happening over night but it is what it is and I just have to suck it up and deal with as well. I didn't think I would get here and its empowering to be in this spot, I know what I have to do, know what I want, I am strong and will make it through whatever else gets thrown my way. I may still have a few waves but the Tsunami is passed. Thank you all for all your support, encouragement, insight, this is a great place and I will continue to visit. Wish me luck. Sue


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## browser

You haven't yet completely realized it but as you're making strides forward, each and every time you ask him "why" whether it's in a letter or in a conversation while you're dividing up the contents of the kitchen drunk drawer, you're setting yourself back a bit. It's starting to sink in when he justifies his actions by saying a curse was put on him by a close family member, but you've got a ways to go yet. 

As far as closure goes, you won't get it by asking him questions and getting reasonable answers. You'll get closure by moving on with your life, and some day looking back at the whole thing and realizing what a screwed up individual he is and how you are in such a better place for having figured it out sooner rather than later.


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## 3Xnocharm

sunshinesas said:


> Update-Its been a hell of a ride but I am now much calmer and can see clearer. We forwent the temp court hearing (wish I wouldn't have) and are pending mediation 6 April. I still have sad/bad days but they get fewer and farther between, on occasion something will punch me in the heart but I am dealing with things much better. We are slowly going through the house, items, etc and he has been a PIA the whole time; defensive, wanting to be in control, uncooperative, actually odd for someone that wants it over? I have written a few letters, trying to reach him, trying to get some closure and its been a big waste of time. I get the same standard BS answers over and over; he did nothing wrong, thought it was ok to have a secret female friend (not), he doesn't have a drinking problem and of course he has blamed me for just about everything (as i expected), then he blamed the kids, then a curse his Aunt put on us when we got married (that was really reaching for a Christian man, I had forgotten all about it and thought it was pretty hilarious). He can't change because in his eyes he never did anything wrong. I have worked hard on me and my issues, found many of what I thought were my issues were manifested by him and those that weren't I own,* I am working on me everyday. I look forward to the end, its taking quite a while and not happening over night but it is what it is and I just have to suck it up and deal with as well. I didn't think I would get here and its empowering to be in this spot, I know what I have to do, know what I want, I am strong and will make it through whatever else gets thrown my way. I may still have a few waves but the Tsunami is passed. *Thank you all for all your support, encouragement, insight, this is a great place and I will continue to visit. Wish me luck. Sue


I am very glad to read this part I bolded, you are making great progress! You are on your way to a much happier life, and yes, it is VERY empowering! Dont even worry about his crap with blaming you for everything... you are getting away, and THAT is what matters. And you know the truth.


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## AVR1962

Sunshine, once you are gone and you have had time to reflect without him in your life on a daily basis you will be so thankful that you had the courage to get out. We seek confirmation, we never give up hope that our situation is repairable, we question ourselves and endlessly realize that we are not getting what we wanted and in fact this man, who has basically, plastered it in our face what a butt he can be and justify his actions has got us seeking his approval, wanting his recognition, believing he is capable of true feeling. Lady, he trained you, he groomed you to be what he wanted from you.

I hope I can post this and if not my apologies! I was watching this just this evening and it resonates with me and what I endured. I hope you can benefit from it.


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## aine

How are you Sunshineas?


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## sunshinesas

Update-Still married, should be finalized soon. He hid assets and it took me a while to find and prove it. He moved out in June, I bought my own house in August. We just settled our joint home. Haven't seen him since Sept, ran into him at the grocery store and gray rocked him. I know and have learned he is truly evil. He has done some things I didn't think another human was capable of. He is a covert narcissist and alcoholic, and it makes sense why our marriage was doomed from the get go, wish I knew 32 years ago what I know now. I wish to not ever hear about him but with two kids, although adults, its difficult. I am still trying to find myself and I find it can be lonely at times but I will take the peace that comes with it. I was lonely most of my marriage, never any real connection. He is talking to the kids about leaving back to Texas, would be great knowing I wouldn't have to see him. He still plays the victim and manipulates our kids and I have had a hard time dealing with that. I am not allowed to be angry, hurt nor bitter; only the strong one while he garners all the attention and plays pathetic. I am trying my best but about at the point of telling my kids I no longer care what he does, where he goes, how sad he is, how the dogs are doing (he took two, one of mine, I had to pick my battles and there were so many), how he doesn't know what to do with himself, how he is lost and lonely. I guess they don't think I get lonely? If I say anything I am the bad guy, its very difficult, and a fine line to walk. I went on one date, it was weird and awkward, not sure I will do it again anytime soon. I still miss being married, having a companion but if I am lucky enough one day I might find a true partner, if not I would rather die alone than to settle. I am on many forums for narcissistic abuse, and find there are many out there, its truly scary the lengths they will go to to destroy you, especially if you leave them. Mine was hell bent on destroying me but he hasn't, I might be a bit broken but am trying to put the pieces back. Hope all of you are well, this is long. I am doing ok, some days better than others but moving forward. I hope the new year brings me true peace and opens a new chapter of my life.


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## turnera

Oh, you know it will. Your life will be amazing next year, once all the decisions are made and you're moving on. And don't worry about the kids. They'll see over time who's good and safe and strong and who creates tension and stress and lies. I'm so proud of you.


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## Slartibartfast

..


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## AVR1962

Hang in there lady!!!!!You are a strong. Don't let this break you, you can do it!!!!


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## 3Xnocharm

I am so happy to read this update. Sorry he has been such a pain in the butt through all this, but that was expected, unfortunately. Be honest with your kids. If you dont want to hear about him, then TELL them that, they should respect your feelings. Your kids are adults, and should act as such. They will figure him out, this is all still pretty new and I'm sure he is filling their heads with all kinds of crap, so make sure you keep communication open with them, so they can sort out the truth. 

GOOD FOR YOU!


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## sunshinesas

Divorce was finalized Nov 20th. I should be elated, I am to a point but with it can so many feelings at once I don't seem to really want to deal with any of them. Thanksgiving was ok, kept my emotions under wraps. I am still having issues with the golden child. Seems her dad and I are held to two different standards. She has decided to cope by not knowing because it would alter her perception of us? I get that to a point but we have always had an open honest relationship and I felt like I had to fear her knowing something about me that would change how she felt about me. I have always been an open book(maybe too open) and there isn't nothing she couldn't ask I wouldn't answer honestly, regardless of the outcome. I was offended by this and told her, we talked a bit about it, things are strained and tensions are high. She told me she knows he has issues but will have a bigger issue if I say anything about him to her, which I won't. She seemed to not understand I don't want to know about him nor his life ever and as selfish as that sounds, its the only way I can cope and heal. She seems to think that is temporary, not for me it isn't. I am having a hard time accepting any grown adult (my kid or otherwise) can so easily defend another person(father or not) that was hell bent on destroying their mother. She is quick to defend him and they can now have a fake, fantasy land relationship that she has supposedly fought so hard to change, she always wanted a real one with him. I just have to come to grips with this and realize it is what it is but its difficult for me. I seem to get short changed because I am the strong one, its always been like this, a hard pill to swallow.
He is supposedly leaving, far away, not sure I believe it because he lives and breathes for her, since the day she was born, me and my son were always pushed aside for his and her wants, sometimes its almost creepy to me. But the farther away the better for me and having peace. I will believe he is gone when I see it. 
Time to figure out what I want in life, time to be a bit selfish, will be again hard for me. 
I will continue to come here and read, I will continue to try to get stronger and overcome. 
Thank you all!
Sue


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## 3Xnocharm

Congrats on the divorce! Sorry your daughter is giving you so much grief. I think eventually she will come to see him for who/what he is. Stick to your guns that you dont want to hear about what he is doing, and not bad mouthing him. (yes, be honest when she asks questions, though) I have a friend dealing with her daughter going through pretty much the same thing. My friend cheated on her husband, he kicked her out and the kids stayed. (she is the youngest, senior in high school, everyone else is grown but still home) She vehemently defends her dad's awful behavior for some reason... I think she has too much sympathy for him. He has put all the kids in the middle, bad mouthing my friend, dragging them into things they dont need to know about, guilting them for spending time with her or talking to her. Its pretty awful, but she is dead set defending him. And SHE used to tell my friend that she should leave him and would talk about finding places to live, etc! Its crazy. One daughter has already moved out because she couldnt take his crap any more, and hopefully one day the youngest will see the reality of what he is doing. I hope that for your and yours. 

Your new life has begun, embrace it.


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## turnera

sunshinesas said:


> I am having a hard time accepting any grown adult (my kid or otherwise) can so easily defend another person(father or not) that was hell bent on destroying their mother. She is quick to defend him and they can now have a fake, fantasy land relationship that she has supposedly fought so hard to change, she always wanted a real one with him.


If you read anything about psychology and parenting, the parent who withholds himself/herself from the child is the parent the child develops an obsession about 'achieving.' Meaning, if she always wanted a 'real relationship' with him, she will overlook anything to suck up to him at this one point in his life when he's willing to include her. She can't help it. It's sick, it's twisted, but it's psychology.

And remember that the 'safe' parent - the one you KNOW really loves you - is the parent the child will abuse in a moment of crisis because, well, they KNOW you really love them and will always be there for them.

So if anything, if it helps, know that all this really means is that she knows you love her, and she knows her dad doesn't.


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## sunshinesas

Thank you and I know in time it will pass, just very hard on my emotions. Turnera you put into simple words what I know and see; I am not just the strong parent, I am the safe one. Just feels one sided and like I am taken advantage of. I guess I have to wait it out. She treated me terribly in her teenage years; fraught with abuse by boyfriends and anger issues, I was the one she "hated" and spewed venom at. After years of therapy she did apologize saying she did it to me because she knew I could handle it and that was hard to understand, still is at times. Why they abuse the loving forgiving parent but that ******* parent gets all the attention and kudos is hard to wrap your head around. My son is the scapegoat, desperately holding onto a thin line with his father, getting a few crumbs here and there but he is wiser to what his dad is. My daughter speaks so highly of her dad "finally" trying to have a relationship with his son where I feel "really, how nice after 21 years", another way she defends him. It is twisted, sick and makes me want to walk away from them both at times, heartbroken. I am not sure anymore who I am let alone who I should be with them; I am supposed to remain strong and loving and supportive but I also feel resentful. This is new territory for me and I am not sure from one day to the next what to do, I just want to distance myself from it all. Thanks again for the knowledge, insight and support, I will eventually find my way. Sue


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## turnera

My viewpoint is this: MY job as a mother is to BE a mother. Mothers guide, teach, mold, and yes, tell your child when they're doing wrong. I'll still be correcting my daughter when she's 50, cos that's my job. And yes, when she is rude to me - I tell her so. When she hurts my feelings, I tell her so. So she'll learn not to be that way with other people. If you're resentful, tell them why. And then step back and let them think on it. What they do with that information is their choice. But you'll have done your job.


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## sunshinesas

Divorced Nov 2018, I missed all the red flags, I am just figuring it all out.


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## turnera

A better life is ahead. And you won't miss them next time.


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## 3Xnocharm

So what happened that finally brought about this conclusion? Like Turnera said, you have better times ahead, I hope you are starting to see the possibilities! You have a chance to find some real happiness.


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## sunshinesas

3Xnocharm said:


> So what happened that finally brought about this conclusion? Like Turnera said, you have better times ahead, I hope you are starting to see the possibilities! You have a chance to find some real happiness.


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## sunshinesas

Reading forum and books and talking with other that had similar experiences, has taken me a while to accept he is not what I thought I married. Reflecting and remembering strange dramatic and weird stories that had to have been made up as a cover for something. Being gaslighted. Finally being able to know he has no true emotional capacity and how it was lacking from the get go. So I will steer away from “charmers” and alcoholics. I do so hope one day I find real love but it won’t be for a while, me trying that is.


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## Beach123

sunshinesas said:


> Reading forum and books and talking with other that had similar experiences, has taken me a while to accept he is not what I thought I married. Reflecting and remembering strange dramatic and weird stories that had to have been made up as a cover for something. Being gaslighted. Finally being able to know he has no true emotional capacity and how it was lacking from the get go. So I will steer away from “charmers” and alcoholics. I do so hope one day I find real love but it won’t be for a while, me trying that is.


Since it's going to be over there is no value in attempting to figure out anything that has to do with him. It's designed so it won't make sense to you.

Only figure out how YOU can be happy on your own moving forward.

I just kept asking myself "how can I make this all different than it's ever been?" 

And so, with that,my whole life changed - and it changed for the better.

I let go of all of my past - it was baggage dragging me down. It was doing me NO good thinking about any of it.

I never knew the real him. The narcissist man I was with for 27 years didn't even know himself.

It was very freeing. No more lies, cheating and manipulation!!

And so I get to be free! You can too. Just keep moving forward - and let go of everything (including thoughts) that are in the past. Make everything new and fresh to invoke change.


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## turnera

sunshine, there's a great book about how we pick (bad) partners called Getting The Love You Want.


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## oldshirt

sunshinesas said:


> Divorced Nov 2018, I missed all the red flags, I am just figuring it all out.


Just to clarify, you posted Nov of last year that the divorce was finalized. 

Did you mean to say you divorced in Nov of 2017 or did you remarry and will be divorced again next month?


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## aine

sunshinesas said:


> MB-"My point is if she wants to divorce the guy, then she needs to pull the trigger and do it. If she wanted to reconcile, she needed to start having sex. If she can't bring herself to have sex with him she needs to realize that it's over."
> So tell me why after over two years he didn't pull the trigger? Reconciliation will not start with sex, there needs to be a relationship and if it can't happen in that order its a mute point.


As a female I am with you on this. Too many males on TAM's go to is 'the wife must have sex' as if everything else about the relationship will magically fall into place. There is no realization that some men are just incredibly selfish and self centered and having been served up everything in many years of marriage are of the belief that they don't have to change a thing (what's YOUR problem?). Your ExH is one of these.

Don't beat yourself up anymore,glad you ended it!


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