# Husband's codependency with sister hurting marriage



## Pondering

My husband and I have not handled conflict well. I don't feel basic partnership or emotional safety with disagreements. It normally feels like the relationship is sacrificed at a fundamental emotional level. It doesn't help that the primary conflict has involved his continuing enmeshment/codependency with his older sister & her family. Although he doesn't see them very often, he's made them feel present emotionally/mentally/psychologically through the conflct, judgment of me and over-all negative energy attributed to them. 

This has been going on since I met him and I don't think he sees how he comes accross still enmeshed through his communication with me. At the same time, I am not getting nurtured by him, so the end result is that I now feel like I have an anxiety disorder with their name on it - I can't stop thinking about this problem (them) and it keeps me up at night- I feel pressured somehow to "fix" things with them for my spouse to accept/love me, which feels messed. So I end up resenting him/disconnecting. How do I deal with this? I've tried therapy around this in the past and it only broutht things up without resolution. 

At the same time, it seems like talking about it more, thinking about it more only gives more negative energy to the elephant in the room I feel he's brought in, but isn't making go away. This just sounds crazy and messed, even as I write this.

I've thought about leaving the marriage (and tried 4 months in the marriage over their dynamics) to not have to deal with it, but there are kids and it just seems like a dumb, lame reason to break up a marriage/family.


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## CallaLily

Can you give us some examples of how he is co-dependent on them or enmeshed? 

Even though you had therapy before with no resolution, doesn't mean you should give up. Maybe you need a different counselor.

It sounds like you have lost yourself in this whole mess. As in you seem somewhat enmeshed yourself with your husbands issues with his family. Make sure you take care of you. You can't change or fix him or his family.


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## Pondering

This is exactly how I feel - like I am codependent/enmeshed with his problem/anxiety. He doesn't seem like he will ever be happy with me unless there is a perfect vision of happy times with her + family. It doesn't help for me to faciliate that vision that she hasn't been nice to me.

Examples from my view of the enmeshment/codenpency (which he would say he doesn't have anymore): He has brought them up at inappropriate times (wedding, honeymoon, pregnancy, having child, etc.) - every major event in my life was somehow about him and them, including having his child. One of his first responses when I was newly pregnant was concern over the child's relationship with the aunt, not being overjoyed that he's having a baby with me! 

When I met him, he TOLD me he was enmeshed with her - that he had been ambiguous and had allowed her to be his "brain." It's made me feel like I've married a third entity who holds many cards that I have no control over. He has confided in her about our relatinship, she had told him negative things about me, then he would be emotionally abusive to me....See how I don't feel quite enticed to bring her into my world more? Also, she's had some issues with her kids that concern me with allowing a relationship with my kids/family, which hubby does not share since his sis & her family have been on a pedestal and a big part of his identity (and now mine!)


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## CallaLily

Wow its like some kind of secret world they have. 

Is she his biological sister? It almost sounds kind of incestuous. I hate to say that and I'm not saying anything like that has happened, BUT its all just weird. Or maybe he was from a close knit family and he has had a hard time cutting the apron strings from her and his family. 

Maybe he didn't have the best life growing up or something happened to him earlier in life, and she was there for him and his was his caretaker? 

Personally, I do not think I could tolerate that. it may come down to you having to give him a ultimatum and then you following through with that.


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## Jamison

Pondering said:


> He has brought them up at inappropriate times (wedding, honeymoon, pregnancy, having child, etc.) - every major event in my life was somehow about him and them, including having his child.


Was he saying he wanted his sister to have his child?

Sorry, just trying to understand here.


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## Pondering

The therapist did ask him whether there was incest between them and he said "no." It's ocurred with 2 of her kids. He couldn't see how this would concern me and would insult me for not being more compassionate. There's been a lot of character assassination towards me on her behalf.

He would say that all he wants is for our daughter to have a relationship with her/cousins and for us to have good times together. When I asked him recently if therapy we were considering(we don't have coverage for it as it turns out) would be all about her, he stated no, and then listed bullets that were only about her/them. He makes a distinction between her and the family. To me it's one and the same - the therapy wouldn't really be about "us." 

She's 10 years older than him and took care of him when he was younger, cuz parents were drinking. He's followed her around wherever she's moved, living with her, caring for her kids, etc. He takes his role as brother/uncle very seriously, but spouse/father at an emotional level not so much.


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## Pondering

Jamison said:


> Was he saying he wanted his sister to have his child?
> 
> Sorry, just trying to understand here.


Sorry if I'm confusing - I've actually been having insomnia over this and feel crazy. I did feel like a surrogate, and I've told him this - I got to the point where I didn't want him at prenatal appointments or delivery because I was so sick of hearing about her and fighting. I was having his baby, but he was just fighting with me over her too much.


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## Jamison

Pondering said:


> She's 10 years older than him and took care of him when he was younger, cuz parents were drinking.


BINGO here is where the problem is at. This is very common among children of alcoholics. She was the older sibling, and felt responsible for taking care of and looking after her brother. He probably was grateful and loved the fact he had someone to care for him. he probably sees her as his life saver. 

Here is my suggestion to you. You need to seek out the book Co-dependent No More by Melody Beattie. It will help you since you seem t be becoming somewhat enmeshed and codependent on him. Its a book that your husband and his sister actually should read as well. They are both codependent from their parents drinking problem. Alanon might be a good idea as well. 

Not to throw to much at you to fast, but I would start with the book and get some counseling for yourself. Tell the counselor about the codependency and the fact that his parents had drinking issues. Hopefully the right counselor can help you more from there. As far as your husband goes, all you can do is make the suggestion to him about the book and seeking help. Right now, you need to take care of you.


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## Pondering

Jamison said:


> BINGO here is where the problem is at. This is very common among children of alcoholics. She was the older sibling, and felt responsible for taking care of and looking after her brother. He probably was grateful and loved the fact he had someone to care for him. he probably sees her as his life saver.
> 
> Here is my suggestion to you. You need to seek out the book Co-dependent No More by Melody Beattie. It will help you since you seem t be becoming somewhat enmeshed and codependent on him. Its a book that your husband and his sister actually should read as well. They are both codependent from their parents drinking problem. Alanon might be a good idea as well.
> 
> Not to throw to much at you to fast, but I would start with the book and get some counseling for yourself. Tell the counselor about the codependency and the fact that his parents had drinking issues. Hopefully the right counselor can help you more from there. As far as your husband goes, all you can do is make the suggestion to him about the book and seeking help. Right now, you need to take care of you.


Thank you, I noted the book and will read it for myself. I can't seek therapy for myself because we don't have coverage for it. Seeking this on-line support is the best I can do for now. I've thought I need to focus more on myself, but can't seem to get obsessive thoughts around this out of my head, esp in the middle of the night, going to bed, 1st thing upon waking. This does not seem healthy - there are more important, worthwhile things to be thinking about - my unemployment, 2 kids with recent autism diagnoses, etc. But I think about this! I'm angry with him for doing this to me, and myself for not having set better boundaries and losing myself to him and his issues.

I doubt he will look at the book. He was unresponsive to my stating he seemed codependent (I did some reading online). I've read a book before on toxic in-laws, and he ignored there could be toxicity. So it's all me and it's in my head, all he's wanting is something simple and I should find love in me for her and them.


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## trey69

I agree he may be codependent, BUT I think it sounds like there might be a little more to it. He sounds almost obsessed. 

I also agree with the things Jamison has mentioned as well. I do think its possible he sees his sister as his "life saver." Unfortunately, the problem is, I don't know that you will ever be able to live up to that. You are playing second fiddle to his and his family's dysfunction. It should be the other way around. You and his kids should be priority number one but you're not. I do not know if that will ever change and if he will ever see the light, only one can hope

However, in the mean time try to read that book and get into some therapy. I'm sure at some point you will have to make a decision on what you will and will not tolerate in your life. If its not something you feel you should accept and it doesn't look like things are going to change then you will need to do what you feel you need to for you and your kids.


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## trey69

You stated you didn't have the coverage to seek out counseling. A few years ago I was in the same situation coverage wise, and I went anyway and the person I saw, let me make payments and pay him when I could. You might want to make a few calls and see what options are available to you with that. Posting here is good too, but I think at some point you will need a professional to help you better.


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## Prodigal

Pondering said:


> He was unresponsive to my stating he seemed codependent (I did some reading online).


I don't know if you are aware of it or not, but you, too, are codependent. Codies frequently get involved and/or marry one another. Your husband is also an ACoA ("Adult Child of an Alcoholic"). If you noticed my location under my logo, it is MY side of the street, which is the only place I can keep clean.

I've attended Al-Anon, open A.A. meetings, CoDA ("Codependents Anonymous"), and Celebrate Recovery. I think I have gotten lots of free help from each of these groups at different times in my own recovery.

Okay, regarding YOUR side of the street. Telling your husband he is a codependent is like me telling my husband he is an alcoholic. They may realize, on some level, that something is wrong, but until they figure it out for themselves, nobody else can help them.

While they're in denial, someone else has to take control of the situation and set them straight, make them see the light, or the error of their ways. I tried this. It made me crazy. You are trying this. It isn't working, is it?

Get Beattie's book and try out a recovery group. It took me awhile to get it, but I eventually discovered that I had no control whatsoever over anyone else's issues. How I choose to react to an addict or a codie is my responsibility. Ultimately, we can only control ourselves. When we give up and let go of trying to "help" others, then we start to feel free of the chaos.


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## Pondering

These responses are so insightful and helpful - I've been struggling with this for years and trying to hear thoughts - none resonated like this. I felt at some level that people weren't quite getting the "heart" of the matter when I was told to just have "coffee" with my sisinlaw (& other simplistic responses). 
After reading Jamison's response, I went straight to the library - the exact book wasn't there (I'm on the waitlist for the audio version), but I got others by the author & another codependency book. What I read online re codepency to get my husband's deal, I did start to think it sounded like me as well. 
I think it makes sense we are codependent people who sought each other out and got into a relationship where we can't quite live with each other, but don't actually bail. I do recognize what is being said in him - in the beginning, he blatantly told me he wanted to learn from my strength, like he was going to be under my wings, and I was to save him somehow - I thought "I'm a single mom and could use some saving of my own."
I will seek out groups and look into some potential paid therapy, but I feel conscious of spending since I'm unemployed and need to be focusing on changing that.


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## tiredwife&sahm

Wow good luck with this one cause it is going to be so hard to get him to find a balance and when you do he will be hurt. It is so weird how I have so many things in common with people on this board. I could have wrote your story except mine is my husband and his brother. When they finally broke away from each other my husband cried. I had never seen him cry. There was a huge family fallout. His mother said in all these years since he was a kid she has not seen him cry that way. He was sad and I knew it and he went into a weird state of silence where he was so upset. What made them come apart is his brother finally got a girlfriend and thank god she was a control freak cause she took him right out of our lives. I was so glad. She was not going to deal with my husband and his brother being together like that all the time.


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## Pondering

I think ultimatums may not be relevant to the situation and he wouldn't quite get it. A therapist told him in the past that if it came down to who he needed to side with, it needed to be me. 

My husband doesn't get that in so many ways in our communication, he is not heeding this principle. He thinks he's being fair in pointing out his sister being right and me wrong, without getting how he comes across to me - disloyal, not having my back, etc. He doesn't get the principle of aiming for joint happiness rather than being "right." 

I'm not sure what my ultimatum would be: "Choose between me or your sister?" He would point out that he doesn't see them much and that I can't expect him to dismiss his family. He just wouldn't be seeing all the grey areas of how he emotionally makes them #1, like his bulleted list recently of what we would need to explore in therapy (if we could get it) and they all revolved around them. So in that scenario, I don't even exist.


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## Pondering

tiredwife&sahm said:


> Wow good luck with this one cause it is going to be so hard to get him to find a balance and when you do he will be hurt. It is so weird how I have so many things in common with people on this board. I could have wrote your story except mine is my husband and his brother. When they finally broke away from each other my husband cried. I had never seen him cry. There was a huge family fallout. His mother said in all these years since he was a kid she has not seen him cry that way. He was sad and I knew it and he went into a weird state of silence where he was so upset. What made them come apart is his brother finally got a girlfriend and thank god she was a control freak cause she took him right out of our lives. I was so glad. She was not going to deal with my husband and his brother being together like that all the time.


Lucky you. It would be great if his sister + family moves away or we did. I think physcial distance would help. Currently, they're an hour away and expect his attendance for the stuff the 3 kids have. Last April, his sister had him + our daughter over for his b'day. Can't wait to deal with this next month. I've since tried to have a boundary with him that if my daughter is involved, I need to be present, but can't quite picture the scenario. Ick. 

Last Thanksgiving, his parents came to our town, stayed with his sister's family and we were not invited. They didn't even try to see their granddaughter. I think this is so f'd, but he can't quite get the dysfunction here (just 1 example).


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## CallaLily

Pondering said:


> I'm not sure what my ultimatum would be: "Choose between me or your sister?"



Yes. If after you have tried everything you know, and he refuses to see the light it will come down to you either learning to live with this, or you walking out the door. You have to take care of you, he may or may never see the light. 

As others have said, continue to post here for advice/suggestions and try to read those books if you can. I think its at least a good and positive thing that you want to learn more about the situation you are in and try to see what you can do for yourself, its really all you can do.


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## Hopefull363

Pondering,

I am the oldest my sister the middle and our brother the youngest. I'm 43, sister 40 and brother 38. Sister and I are both married. Brother is not. My sister and I have always taken care of our brother. My sister more than me. She takes care of his finances, helped him navigate buying a house. We feed him ect. All three of us have a very close relationship because we have always been there for each other. My children and my sisters have a close relationship as we do with all of our cousins. Our family as a whole is very close. Is it possible for the sister to go to a couple of counseling sessions with both of you? I would go and my sister would go if my brother needed us to in order to help my brothers marriage(if he was married). Is it possible that the sister doesn't realize the wedge she's putting between you. Counseling with both of you may help her realize it. My brother gets along with both of our husbands and is an active uncle that our kids look up to. The three of us want nothing more than each of us to be happy.


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## Darlene Lancer JD MFT

I understand how painful your situation is. It sounds as if on a deep psychological level your husband is married to his sister and was before you legally married him. You can't change that, and trying makes you more frustrated.

You can get help with your own enmeshment through counseling or Codependents Anonymous. You can also set boundaries, but must be willing to follow through with consequences.

I'd look into your own family of origin and see why it's been okay for you to be the third wheel and not be numero uno. This has to do with your self-worth. When you raise your self-esteem and feel more deserving, you will know what to do and be less enmeshed.


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## Pondering

Hopefull363 said:


> Pondering,
> 
> I am the oldest my sister the middle and our brother the youngest. I'm 43, sister 40 and brother 38. Sister and I are both married. Brother is not. My sister and I have always taken care of our brother. My sister more than me. She takes care of his finances, helped him navigate buying a house. We feed him ect. All three of us have a very close relationship because we have always been there for each other. My children and my sisters have a close relationship as we do with all of our cousins. Our family as a whole is very close. Is it possible for the sister to go to a couple of counseling sessions with both of you? I would go and my sister would go if my brother needed us to in order to help my brothers marriage(if he was married). Is it possible that the sister doesn't realize the wedge she's putting between you. Counseling with both of you may help her realize it. My brother gets along with both of our husbands and is an active uncle that our kids look up to. The three of us want nothing more than each of us to be happy.


If your brother got involved with someone, my impression and hope is that you would be welcoming to her. In my situation, that has not been the case. She controlled my h before I came along and then her hope was she could control me and us as a couple. She once called us into a meeting because I wanted to spend a weekend with him rather than him babysit her kid again. H didn't get how it was inappropriate of her to expect that when she didn't get her way. H harrassed me for a long time for not attending.

We got counseling when I was pregnant and the therapist suggested my h set boundaries with her. Since then, after a DV incident over her with h, I got a lengthy letter from her stating among a litany how the incident was a violation to her and her family. I didn't respond, I didn't want a relationship where she felt comfortable sending me such stuff and it didn't look like good boundary-setting between h and her. I married and committed to my H, not her and I should not have to go to therapy with her. It's hard enough being married to my h over her. It doesn't seem like a good idea to invite her more into my life and empower her more to destroy it. Why would I want to empower any woman my spouse has been enmeshed with?


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## Pondering

Darlene Lancer said:


> I understand how painful your situation is. It sounds as if on a deep psychological level your husband is married to his sister and was before you legally married him. You can't change that, and trying makes you more frustrated.
> 
> You can get help with your own enmeshment through counseling or Codependents Anonymous. You can also set boundaries, but must be willing to follow through with consequences.
> 
> I'd look into your own family of origin and see why it's been okay for you to be the third wheel and not be numero uno. This has to do with your self-worth. When you raise your self-esteem and feel more deserving, you will know what to do and be less enmeshed.


I am starting to deal with my codependency and it's painful. I started a thread on this for support: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiet...beginning-battle-codependency.html#post614407
I had a dysfunctional upbringing and can clearly see my codependent signs now and in the past. I spent 10 years with a previous spouse where I was basically sugar mama and received nothing. 

I thought I was being loving and compassionate through a litany of issues my current spouse brought to the table: the enmeshment, ambiguity, commmitment issues (a debacle of an engagement), orientation issues that took a bunch of therapy, incest in his sister's family, an invite to an open marriage, all while I was trying to finish an MBA while working full time as a single mom. I was barely making it through school and was researching how he could be helped. Why did I take all that on? I would not want my daughter to do that. I would tell her she needs to let him go so she can focus on herself and MAYBE consider coffee with him when his life is sorted out.


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## Hopefull363

Pondering,

What was she like when you were dating? Did he hide how close he was with his sister while you were dating? Just curious as to if she toned it down while you were dating then when you were married stepped it back up to prove she could. When did you find out how controlling she is with him?


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## Pondering

Hopefull363 said:


> Pondering,
> 
> What was she like when you were dating? Did he hide how close he was with his sister while you were dating? Just curious as to if she toned it down while you were dating then when you were married stepped it back up to prove she could. When did you find out how controlling she is with him?


When I first met him, it felt like I needed to coordinate time with him through her. She had his schedule worked out with babysitting commitments for her 3 kids. He invited me up while he was babysitting, so I would babysit with him to spend time with him. He had me meet her right away, so I'm watching her kid playing soccer while ignored by the 3 adults who are like a team watching (h, the sis & her h). It felt weird. 

I went on a drive to watch the fall colors and he was tense because he had a commitment to meet her to watch the kids. We didn't talk on the drive home. I felt he was dominated by her and then I got in the way. I was an invader. She left messages like: "he's still my brother" and "why did you look how you did at lunch? (something to that effect - like I need to explain my body languange). Even last night, h couldn't finish a sentence to me without stopping to analyze my face (I was just looking at him) - he did this much more in the early days, I think trained by her. Weird. 

My son and I were invited to Cancun with his family, then later I was told she wanted her family to be with the parents by themselves, so I guess I was disinvited. I didn't react to any of this, just odd notes to self and how H was just going all with whatever she did. 

He actually TOLD me he had been enmeshed with her, that he let her think for him, he had been ambiguous, etc. YIKES! 

Where we are now, he doesn't agree that he has continued to be codependent with her emotionally/psychologically the past 7 years we've been together. He has saturated, harrassed and even assaulted me over them. 

None of this seems normal to me and doesn't entice me to want to bring her into my life and have her be my daughter's aunt when she hasn't exactly been sisterly to me. The incest between her 2 kids doesn't reassure me either, but that just means I'm lacking in compassion and hateful according to h (what he has said to me in the past).


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## trey69

It sounds like more going on than just codependency from him and his sister. Its very odd, and personally its not a battle I would want to fight. It seems pointless because its very clear how he feels about her. I do think you need to continue to to learn more about yourself though through reading, counseling, posting here or whatever works for you. Unfortunately, your marriage isn't really a marriage and I doubt it ever will be.


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## Hopefull363

I agree with Trey. Neither one of them want to change themselves. They just want you to change, which is not reasonable. Keep seeing your therapist independently and start working on your exit plan. You deserve to be with someone that is going to be into you and your family not his sisters. After fighting the good fight for 7 years nothing has changed, it won't change. You gave it your all. You should have no regrets.


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## Runs like Dog

My wife and her entire family have an "Us against the World" ethos. They first and foremost like and interact with one another before anyone and everyone else. Blood relations are always held at a higher more esteemed level than any other relation. The weird thing is that they don't like each other not even a little bit. They constantly violently argue and do and say awful things to one another. But if you aint blood you aint sh*t.


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## trey69

Runs like Dog said:


> My wife and her entire family have an "Us against the World" ethos. They first and foremost like and interact with one another before anyone and everyone else. Blood relations are always held at a higher more esteemed level than any other relation. The weird thing is that they don't like each other not even a little bit. They constantly violently argue and do and say awful things to one another. But if you aint blood you aint sh*t.


 That's because, dysfunction supports dysfunction!


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