# Wife said she loves me very much, but doesn't feel she is in love with me...



## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

Hello everyone,

So I'm fairly new to the site and forum having found it in searches. I know this isn't the newest of topics, but I imagine every version has its own story and background, so any advice is appreciated...

Yesterday my wife and I had a confrontation of sorts. We started arguing in the morning about a relatively minor topic and it ended with her yelling at me. We left the house to take our three kids (5, 9, 11) to school and I headed to work. However, this was maybe the third time in 8 years (5 married... 5 years today actually) that one of us has raised our voice at each other so I knew something was very wrong. I'd had a sense for a while now... lack of affection, overly hostile, stressed, etc... and I decided it was time to bring it to a head.

So I headed back home and asked her what was wrong. We talked... talked like we hadn't talked in a long time quite frankly. We talked for about two hours about our relationship. She's not happy. She's not happy though for many reasons such as depression, work, her ex and how he treats their two kids, her stalled education. She's also not happy with us. She feels that we don't have anything in common anymore and that we've drifted apart.

Near the end I asked her if she loved me and she said yes, that she deeply loves me, she's just not in love with me. That she doesn't want us to be a couple that's together "just for the sake of the kids" and then splits in 12 years when the youngest is done with school. She wants to be happy and wants to be in love.

Time is not infinite so we couldn't simply talk all day... so we left it at we're going to have to figure out our next steps. If we want this to work then there has to be next steps. She did not say she wants a divorce or that she wants me out. She did say that she has thought about whether she could handle being a single mom of three kids, both logistically and financially.

After leaving the house I felt pretty devastated. I love my wife very, very much. I met her shortly after she left her first husband, and maybe even too soon after. But what's done is done, nothing can change that. We dated for two years and then got married. We have a son together who I absolutely adore, and he and I have an amazing bond. My wife spent much of 2007-2009 in nursing school so I have been our son's primary caregiver for most of his life. And much the same applies to my stepchildren as well.

I immediately called my company's EAP and went and saw a counselor. She gave me some ideas and strategies, she also recommended a book The Divorce Remedy. I've ordered the book (gotta love small towns with only one bookstore!) and read some of it online already. Just my short session with the counselor did help me realize that I have neglected her and taken our relationship for granted.

Three more factors... in March she got a new job that was full-time and required working three out of four weekends a month. I work M-F with weekends off. So now we went from having almost every weekend off to never having them off except one in a while. And on those weekends she was often catching up with friends and I was doing a volunteer gig I do. 

Second factor is that before she took her new job, her old job was cutting her hours drastically. We ran into money problems and I worked them as best I could. She hates money and dealing with it so I didn't tell her. Finally, at the end of July/early August I came clean and told her how we were struggling, how we had to use payday loans to make cashflow week to week. Since then we've cleaned all of those loans up, put ourselves on a solid budget and are even tackling our combined debt. But I know the money issue still dogs her and there is a lack of trust there (which I readily admit I've earned).

Third, she is clinically depressed. She takes Wellbutrin and it's helped, but she's still depressed. She says that maybe she's just confused... maybe if she didn't have the depression she wouldn't feel like this at all...

Since the talk yesterday things have been better. We talk now and even give goodbye and goodnight kisses again. I don't think for a moment that all is good. Tonight we went for our anniversary dinner and had a good time. We laughed and talked like we hadn't in... well, I actually can't remember the last time we did that. It's been that long. I forgot what an amazing woman she is to spend time with.

I wrote her a letter tonight telling her that I am going to put together the next steps for the two of us to take. I plan to read and follow the steps of the book my counselor recommended. I plan to return to counseling and am going to try to get her to go too. I will make dates with my wife and stop taking our relationship for granted.

I am wondering what I'm missing... if there are things you would do? things I should try? I've stopped trying to be the super-pleaser... that just tires me out and pisses her off anyway. I've started working to go back to who I was and act how I used to act before I got desperate feeling I was losing her.

One other item that I'd appreciate suggestions on is how to deal with the anger. I'm not constantly angry at her, but it does come. Usually when I'm reading to my son or playing ball with him and I think that she would jeopardize this relationship over all of this. I hear her complain to me about the deadbeats, abusers, drug addicts, and bums that her girlfriends live with and are married too. I'm not that... I make good money, believe I am a great dad, sit on local elected boards, and am a community leader. And I think... really? You'd threaten all this over thinking you're not in love anymore? And then I get angry. I don't vent at her but it's not healthy storing it up either.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Are there any red flags that would indicate another man?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

All of the signs are there for an affair. Find out if she's having one. Do some snooping with her fone records but don't ask outright cause she will deny. Rule it out first. You saaid you've neglected her. How? Explain with more detail. Wome need a good emotional connection to feel loved and to love. Do not beg her to stay or pursue her. It will turn her off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

New job...likely met a man who she at LEAST has thoughts about...which led to the greener pastures.

She gave you the ILYBINILWY speech, which ALMOST ALWAYS is because of another man. Look it up. And start checking the phone records for one single number that shows up a lot.

That said, you can do a lot to improve your marriage. For one, you should be spending 10-15 hours a week together WITHOUT the kids/work/household stuff. You need to do SOMETHING about the two jobs not overlapping. That's the kiss of death to your marriage.

Finally, stop being the super-pleaser. Women need their men to be strong. Alphas.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

I started out, when the wierdness started creeping in a few months ago, in the belief she was having an affair. So I did the checking up things mentioned above. I looked at phone records, email, Facebook... nothing. Nothing at all. She did attend a music festival/party with some friends a ways away and there was a guy there. I think maybe she saw him and got a bit of "greener pastures" feeling but that is complete speculation. At the same time I don't think she's ever had an affair or cheated on me with him or anyone else. I know, that sounds like a sucker, but it is what it is. Her assurances combined with my checking and investigation lead me there, so it's not just her word.

The overlapping job thing is about to get somewhat better. She has a new job that will only require 3 days one week and four the next with far less weekends. When we had our "talk" she said that she wants this music fest with her friends next weekend to be the last "really going out" for a long time. She wants to be home. She wants to figure herself (and I think by extension, us) out. When I met with the counselor I felt like a complete ass, because it was only then that I realized I was using her working weekends as an excuse for not having to put forth effort. I can hear myself saying, "Man, it'd be cool to go to X festival this weekend, but too bad you have to work." Like saying it gives me half-credit or something... stupid. Could I have taken days off of work to be with her? Of course. Could I have flexed my schedule to spend time with her? Yes. And I feel like a complete idiot now for not investing that time or even thinking about it.

During our talk she said she is confused.. and I genuinely believe her. And not confused about us per se, but life. She married very young (20) and had her first baby on her first wedding day... marrying that man and knowing as she married him that she would some day leave him. She had a second child with him and then at 23 left him. Then we met and got married when she was 26 after dating for two years. She didn't get much single time or much married with no kids time, and now when she is with friends she can see what their lives are like.

I haven't begged her to stay or anything like that. I've wanted to but have resisted. I haven't even cried or broken down around her because that's a big turn off for her. I simply wrote her a letter that tells her I love her, that says I want us to be good parents and good spouses, took accountability for things I haven't done and have done, and told her I was committed to make this work. That it might take some time, but that I was committed. I didn't even ask her for a commitment. She read the letter last night after we got home. I left her alone to read it, but I know she teared up and was emotional. She said she needs time to process it, which I believe and yesterday was an absolutely long day since she had to work at 5:30 am and we didn't get home until 9 and it was go-go all the rest of the day.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Sounds like you guys have just bottled up the communication for a long time.

Start texting each other during the day.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I like what you wrote her in the letter. Now the ball is in her court. Don't cry or do any of that sruff mentioned. Elaborate on the guy at the festival. When was the festival. You saaid weirdness started a few months ago. Explain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

The wierdness started in probably late Spring/early Summer. About two months after her new job and her having to work every weekend. It also started a little bit after we had the money problems that I was shielding her from. One of the reasons I wouldn't push us going out anywhere was that I knew we didn't have the money for it... so if she didn't want to push the issue I wouldn't either. And in hindsight I can think of multiple times where she said "we should do something this weekend" (say the one weekend we had off) and I'd give a non-committal reply or shrug and say "yeah, sure" and let it rest. Looking back I can easily see how that could be interpreted as lack of interest and caring for her. It really was meant as "we don't have the money" but that's in the past now too...

So one of these weekends she gets invited by some friends to a music party about two hours away. She asks if she can go and I want her to be happy and have a good time so I say sure. It's sort of last minute so one of us has to stay home and do childcare, so I volunteer (also knowing it's cheaper if one goes instead of two). She goes and has a good time, though at one point mid-event she texts me from there saying it's raining, it's a mess, and she wishes she had just stayed home and curled up with me. 

The party's host is an artist and musician. From the looks of it a pretty neat and creative guy. When she comes back from that the wierdness gets even more severe. That was our first conversation about whether she was happy or not. That was when she revealed she isn't, but not about us, just about life. That something's wrong and she doesn't know what. That she's depressed and needs to get medication (which she has since done and has helped some), that she's frustrated that she can't start school until the summer, she has body image issues (though she looks amazing), and other issues. 

I asked her then if she was happy with us and got a "yes" but not an emphatic or absolute. And she said she loved me then too. She said she'd wish I'd take better care of myself, lose weight, etc... (and she's right, when we met I was maybe 200.. as of that conversation I was up to 241, and that made me get serious so now down to 229 and headed downward. In the mean time she's lost probably 45 pounds since January and looks great!). She said she worries that if I don't change my ways I'll die on her at 50 and leave her a widower (which, considering I suspected an affair had me totally confused). I actually didn't confront her about the affair suspicion because I was going to but called a counselor through our an assistance program and they talked me down from the ledge. That counselor looked at my "evidence" and told me I was crazy and wrong-headed. Looking back I owe that counselor a huge thank-you... that accusation may have ended everything.

She texted back and forth a few times with the party host. That got me alarmed, but I checked her texts and none were salacious and stuff, just asking if he was going to go to a big concert her and her friends were going to later in the summer. She did delete some texts and facebook chats with him, so that still has me wonder if there weren't feelings there. But I am very confident he hasn't returned those feelings at all... her last text to him was over a month ago and was never returned, and it was simply thanking him for a book recommendation. I also installed a logging program to log FB chats but they never came up with anything and she had no clue there were there. And part of me thinks she deleted the chats because she suspected I was checking and thought chatting with this new guy she met would probably upset me... which is fairly accurate.

And so that's that on the festival and "the guy".


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

Well the good news in this is that you are on it, and well ahead of the curve for most.

Do you both exercise? Depression is very tough to deal with for both partners, and exercise is probably the best thing a person can do to manage it. 

Anti depressants can have a brutal effect on someones mindset. I once read an article that basically linked antidepressants to marital unhappiness and infidelity. (Can remember where I read it.) In some ways I think they can hurt as much as they can help.

I'd proceed three ways:

1. Do the 'needs' assessment with her from Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice - a deliberately go about meeting her needs
2. Get on a regular exercise program together
3. Keep monitoring - sounds like she's got a crush, which has opened up some feelings for her.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Daddyo, I can relate so much to your story, the decisions we BOTH made that prevented us from spending more time together, me letting her go out to have fun more because I wanted her to be happy even though it meant less fun for me (my way of giving), accepting my neglect of the marriage and doing what she needed. But even after first round of counseling I was making progress and she said it wasn't working that she just wasn't attracted sexually to me. That's where I knew things were F'd up, and I had no idea what to do. I went to individual counseling to try to kickstart my drive in life again, but wasn't getting anywhere (after several sessions the counseler said I just needed a vacation, and that when I got this surgery I was waiting for should make it a lot better). Anyways, I left things on that course for way too long before inevitably getting the ILYBINILWY talk, said right there she wanted a divorce... of course, she didn't actually move out or call a lawyer, just needed to get those words off her chest - as I found out over the course of the next several weeks it was to pursue her affairs, the things I saw all started to make sense: she was losing weight and spending a lot on new clothes, putting on the makeup extra heavy, had several new sexy panties that she never wore around me, was hiding her cell phone a lot etc.

I think this is the reason people have suggested adamantly your W is having an affair. But if you are confident that isn't the case there is definitely work you can do right now to start getting the spark back, but it will take both of you to commit to the marriage. MC is the first recommendation, start learning about each others needs and make sure you are meeting hers, and also she is meeting yours, find out about love languages (don't waste any more effort on things she can't even appreciate), and remember that actions speak louder than words... She wants a fit husband, then start lifting weights and show her what she wants, man up a little and stand up for your own needs a little more, don't say yes unless you mean it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> New job...likely met a man who she at LEAST has thoughts about...which led to the greener pastures.
> 
> She gave you the ILYBINILWY speech, which ALMOST ALWAYS is because of another man. Look it up. And start checking the phone records for one single number that shows up a lot.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

daddyo73 said:


> The wierdness started in probably late Spring/early Summer. About two months after her new job and her having to work every weekend. It also started a little bit after we had the money problems that I was shielding her from. One of the reasons I wouldn't push us going out anywhere was that I knew we didn't have the money for it... so if she didn't want to push the issue I wouldn't either. And in hindsight I can think of multiple times where she said "we should do something this weekend" (say the one weekend we had off) and I'd give a non-committal reply or shrug and say "yeah, sure" and let it rest. Looking back I can easily see how that could be interpreted as lack of interest and caring for her. It really was meant as "we don't have the money" but that's in the past now too...
> 
> So one of these weekends she gets invited by some friends to a music party about two hours away. She asks if she can go and I want her to be happy and have a good time so I say sure. It's sort of last minute so one of us has to stay home and do childcare, so I volunteer (also knowing it's cheaper if one goes instead of two). She goes and has a good time, though at one point mid-event she texts me from there saying it's raining, it's a mess, and she wishes she had just stayed home and curled up with me.
> 
> ...


I would go to the festival with her .... AT ALL COSTS.

If you decide to not do this, write this down as it is going to haunt you.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

She is not cheating, I'm very confident of that. She leaves her phone laying around and I can see it whenever I want. Nothing there. I can track our phone usage and text usage and for the last three months she had idea I could do that. The music festival is in the past so that's not really applicable. 

I am exercising regularly as is she. I'm working on weight loss, got a new haircut/style, and working on how I look. I want to approach her about going to MC but not sure how to broach the topic. I believe she really is confused and that a lot of this is wrapped up in her illness, but that's what scares me too since the illness adds an unstable element into the equation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## grizabella (May 8, 2011)

If all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I would say to not put much creedence in an affair and pay more attention to your relatiomship. Fatigue and depression can play havoc with your sex life and without that you lose connectedness. 

Anyway you can get away for a weekend or an overnight, get someone to watch the kids? It is imperitive to have that private time, to just focus on each other. We share so much of our lives with others it seems like we all live in a reality show. If you can't get away, put the kids to bed early and go to your bedroom and close the door on the world. It doesn't need to be sexual but should be heavily physical. It's easier to feel love feom someone when you are in their arms. Candles,wine, bubblebath, massage...whatever you can think of to be relaxed. You don't have to try to work it all out, just be together. And to quote an old joke. see what pops up(I couldn't resist). Bon Chance!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She's not cheating...but she WANTS to. She WANTS the attention of a 'real man' to get her heart pounding. Like the festival guy. Are you going to BE that guy or are you just gonna talk?

Do NOT let her go to that festival without you. Beg, barter, whatever you have to do to get babysitting, but GO WITH HER. Make it a romantic weekend, even around her friends, and show her YOU can be the guy she dreams of. 

Have you started figuring out how to spend more time with her yet? 

Before you do the Emotional Needs questionnaire, do the Love Buster one. You have to remove the LBs before you try to meet ENs.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

Ok... there is no festival. The festival was in the past. Yes, perhaps I should've gone, but it was in the past so I can't really go back and do that. I appreciate the thoughts about going, but I think people have gotten confused that there is some festival to go to... there isn't. At least not this immediate moment.

I have started looking at the more time thing, yes. I talked to my boss (who thankfully is the head of our company, so no one's going to override her) and explained my problems. I told her I would need to be flexible with my schedule, now and in the future. She was very understanding and told me what I already knew... that our schedules are always flexible, just let her know and get the work done.

We don't have a ton of extra money so figuring out exactly what to do that won't make her feel like we're breaking out budgeting agreement is challenging. That I need to figure out. And part of me is terrified that when I propose we hang out for a morning on her day off she'll say she has no interest... but I guess I cross that bridge if I get to it. No need creating problems that don't actually exist.

The other challenge we have, at least that she cites, is this issue of friends. We used to have a close core group of friends that we socialized with. Then a few got divorced, so that made group events awkward. Then the rest of the group got transferred for work and suddenly our main nexus was gone. She's lived in this town her whole life and just replaced our group with these other friends she's known her whole life. But... she doesn't feel comfortable having me around them. She says she thinks I will judge them and embarrass them. I really think she's afraid I'll judge her, but I honestly don't care. People have issues (i.e. we are example A) and I try not to be the cast the first stone guy. She doesn't get wasted, smoke pot, black out, get arrested, or other things that some of this group may do. She's sort of grown past them but they're comfortable, I get that.

I on the other hand am not a big friend maker... not sure why, it's my issue. And I'm not from here so I don't have this repertoire to pick from when our nexus left. I think tomorrow I may go back to church (haven't been there for quite a while) because a) I could certainly use some spirituality back in my life and b) I'm thinking it's a good place I meet some guys like me. An example, our social group used to do a game night at least once a month... we both loved it. Then, for the reasons above, it stopped. It's never been replaced but that was always a huge bonding and connection time for us.

One last comment... thanks to everyone for their input. While I may not agree with all of it, it certainly is helpful to see all points.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

I also meant to comment that we have a decent sex life (though of course that means something different to everyone). We have sex usually once or twice a week. It's never been "clinical" as I've heard others talk about... she pays attention to my needs and I pay attention to her needs. And when there is an extended break for some reason (I think three weeks is the longest we've ever gone without due to travel, illness, girly problems all back to back to back) she does feel bad, misses it, and lets me know she knows I value it and she wants to provide it.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

Women that suddenly start losing weight are on a mission to find a better man.

That better man can either be you, or someone else. But she will find one.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

daddyo73 said:


> Ok... there is no festival. The festival was in the past.


Oh, I thought you said there was another one coming up in a couple weeks. No worries.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

daddyo73 said:


> We don't have a ton of extra money so figuring out exactly what to do that won't make her feel like we're breaking out budgeting agreement is challenging. That I need to figure out. And part of me is terrified that when I propose we hang out for a morning on her day off she'll say she has no interest... but I guess I cross that bridge if I get to it. No need creating problems that don't actually exist.


One thing women usually like is when men take charge; sweep them off their feet. One time my husband picked me up from work; he had a picnic basket packed, and a bag of clothes packed with swimsuit, etc. Wouldn't tell me where we were going. Ended up taking me to a place where we each got a massage, then took a shower together afterward, and then got to spend the rest of the afternoon in this house, fireplace, pool, hot tub; they left us strawberries and champagne, and he had brought a basket of stuff to complement it. Just a really neat, thoughtful thing that he did for me.

Another thing he did was pack a basket and take me to a dock at the local lake at sunset, where we ate and drank and watched the sun go down.

I have a list of ideas for things to do, but it's at work. I'll try to remember to get it for you Monday, but basically some things you can get her to do with you include a jigsaw puzzle, read a book together, walk the dog together, GET a dog together, take a class together at community college, join a club together, ride bikes together, go hiking, picnic, toy sailboat at a lake, remote control cars, board game night, start a round robin dinner night in your neighborhood...get creative. Doesn't have to cost money.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Find a way to make new friends. If you live in a normal subdivision type community, make some flyers and put them in mailboxes, announcing a game night. Set a night, tell in the flyer when and where, add your number for questions, and then set it up and see if anyone shows up.

Oh, and tell her you're going to invite her friends over. Take the first step.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

@tunera... The list would be very appreciated. Some of those I've come up but more the merrier. We used to love to play Scrabble and Yahtzee together but never do anymore unless it's with the kids. I've thought of bike rides, walks, we already have a dog  , going for coffee (she's a coffee nut), shopping a resale stores (she adores resale stores), bowling (it's a local thing).

I hesitate on the sweep off feet thing because this is all so new. I don't want to smother her or look/act desperate. At the same time, I remember how I used to drive out on no notice to her place in the country and surprise her when we were dating. Or take her off to a B&B with no warnings. I didn't do that when we were first dating, but once we got serious yes.

It just feels like we're first dating again but maybe I'm just still so shell-shocked that I'm guarding.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Pick 'small' sweep off feet things. Like, bring home her favorite dessert. Or plant her favorite flower in the back yard. Things that show her you're thinking of her. Do you have a nice place to walk the dog? Get someone to watch the kids for an hour, get a bottle of wine and some plastic glasses, put them in a bag, attach it to the leash, and leave it where she'll get it, with a note attached: You - me - George the dog - 6pm


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

I've got myself shored up for tonight to be the night we have the discussion about whether she wants to work together on fixing this. My heart says she does but I'm trying to steel myself against a "no"... 

I'm not resigned to "no" being the last word if it happens, but a no will be very hard to deal with I don't doubt that for a moment...

any suggestions would be appreciated...


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

daddyo73 said:


> I've got myself shored up for tonight to be the night we have the discussion about whether she wants to work together on fixing this. My heart says she does but I'm trying to steel myself against a "no"...
> 
> I'm not resigned to "no" being the last word if it happens, but a no will be very hard to deal with I don't doubt that for a moment...
> 
> any suggestions would be appreciated...


I'm not really sure if I misunderstood, but I don't know how sweeping her off her feet can be described as smothering or desperate. It is alpha. You own the situation and you are giving her a bold declaration of your love, with 100% confidence that she will be moved.

Also, I think it would be a really big mistake to let her own the whole issue of possible seperation/divorce, by just letting her assume that you will let her do everything she wants to do. Without threatening, let her know that she is getting herself into a very expensive proposition. One that could conceivably impact her financially. No threat, but you will not simply roll when she assumes that she will have primary custody of the children. She is admittedly depressed, and if she chooses to remove balance from their life, you will have to consider what is best for the children. At a minimum, this would be routine checkups with a family therapist for the kids. I've been there - don't assume that the older kids will not feel guilt over a mother's depression, or even be impacted in their ability to view life in a more positive way.

I really think that if she sees a weak husband, she will feel empowered. But she also doesn't need to see you being spiteful. Just strong enough to know that some positive controls need to be in place if she decides to go alone with the children. 

Part of depression is sometimes looking at our relationships as flawed, missing the ability to bring happiness. In a sense, she is possibly externalizing her depression into your marriage, thinking that if the marriage were better, her depression wouldn't exist.


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## Scottt (Feb 25, 2011)

I've been following this thread from the beginning, and I admire your commitment to your marriage. I think you may have caught this early enough that you can still turn things around and you guys will turn out OK, but I wouldn't hold out too much hope for your talk tonight. Whether or not your wife is involved in an actual affair, she sounds like a person in some kind of a fog, and until she breaks out of it, she'll likely see working on her marriage as a distraction from whatever it is that she'd rather be doing.

I was wondering what was up with her until I read this:



daddyo73 said:


> She's lived in this town her whole life and just replaced our group [of friends] with these other friends she's known her whole life. But... she doesn't feel comfortable having me around them. She says she thinks I will judge them and embarrass them. I really think she's afraid I'll judge her, but I honestly don't care. People have issues (i.e. we are example A) and I try not to be the cast the first stone guy. She doesn't get wasted, smoke pot, black out, get arrested, or other things that some of this group may do. She's sort of grown past them but they're comfortable, I get that.


So what she's basically saying is that she doesn't want you around these deadbeat friends of hers because you're too much of a square; you're just not cool enough to hang out with them. I'm not sure how you've concluded that she's not getting wasted or smoking pot when she's around them. I'm pretty sure that if she hung out with folks like this and didn't at least take a toke or two once in a while, she wouldn't get invited back. I'm guessing there are occasional drunken "hook-ups" within this group, too. I doubt she'd want you to see that, either. (It would be kind of awkward for her and the hypothetical other guy if you were there and saw them.)

There's one thing that you should be able to resolve tonight. You didn't say where your kids are while your wife is out with this group, but I'm almost afraid that they're home with you. You should be able to put an end to that as of tonight. I get it: If you told your wife she couldn't go out and "party" with a bunch of local losers, that would be controlling; at least that's what she'd tell you. But there's no reason you have to enable it either. If she wants to go off in this direction, at least make her take responsibility for her kids first.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she says no, help her visualize what 'no' looks like. The money she'll have to spend, what she can no longer afford, having to find ways to watch kids while still doing what she wants, all that jazz. Point out that SHE will have to leave, as you want to save the marriage. So all the expenses will be on her. And reiterate that you will NOT be her friend, if she leaves. Most women visualize still getting to depend on their husband after they leave them. Burst that bubble.


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## Scottt (Feb 25, 2011)

turnera said:


> Most women visualize still getting to depend on their husband after they leave them. Burst that bubble.


Well put, Turnera. This is it, in a nutshell!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

daddyo73 said:


> The other challenge we have, at least that she cites, is this issue of friends. We used to have a close core group of friends that we socialized with. Then a few got divorced, so that made group events awkward. Then the rest of the group got transferred for work and suddenly our main nexus was gone. She's lived in this town her whole life and just replaced our group with these other friends she's known her whole life. *But... she doesn't feel comfortable having me around them. She says she thinks I will judge them and embarrass them.* I really think she's afraid I'll judge her, but I honestly don't care. People have issues (i.e. we are example A) and I try not to be the cast the first stone guy. *She doesn't get wasted, smoke pot, black out, get arrested, or other things that some of this group may do.* *She's sort of grown past them but they're comfortable, I get that.*


OMG. Wow. Just honed in on this. If she had truly grown past them she would not be hanging out with them. If I was comfortable hanging out with old stripper friends that I have outgrown my wife would have an issue with this. Especially if I did not want her around to "judge" them. Whatever, strippers, pot heads, drunks you name it. If it is not in the culture of the marriage then this is a Red Flag. 

No this is the smoking gun right here. You can see the raging fire as a matter of fact. This would be unacceptable to me.

I see it highly likely that there has been and will be activities that you would really not appreciate from her. She is certainly getting a good contact high. Drinking at least a little and is vulnerable to emotional attachments. So yeah, hookups are very possible.

Are these folks married? I am figuring that there are some single folks in here as well. Not that it would matter in that atmosphere. So this starts to really clear things up.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> Oh, I thought you said there was another one coming up in a couple weeks. No worries.


Yeah, that got me too. That is what I was talking about.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

daddyo73 said:


> So one of these weekends she gets invited by some friends to a music party about two hours away. She asks if she can go and I want her to be happy and have a good time so I say sure. It's sort of last minute so one of us has to stay home and do childcare, so I volunteer (also knowing it's cheaper if one goes instead of two). She goes and has a good time, though at one point mid-event she texts me from there saying it's raining, it's a mess, and she wishes she had just stayed home and curled up with me.
> 
> The party's host is an artist and musician. From the looks of it a pretty neat and creative guy. When she comes back from that the wierdness gets even more severe. That was our first conversation about whether she was happy or not. That was when she revealed she isn't, but not about us, just about life. That something's wrong and she doesn't know what. That she's depressed and needs to get medication (which she has since done and has helped some), that she's frustrated that she can't start school until the summer, she has body image issues (though she looks amazing), and other issues.
> 
> ...


Interesting. Had to look back at this. You know one gets a visual of a "festival". Now we are calling it a party that has a host who is one of her friends. hmmmmmm. 

Then we find out that she has a whole group of party friends like this. 

So where did she stay for the party? At someone's house?
These folks drink and smoke pot and whatever. So I would not be surprised after getting a taste of the life she once associated with being single she came back ... confused. Whether she had sex with someone else who kows. I am betting that she drank, smoked at least a little pot and cuddled up with some dude or dudes and did some making out anyway. Maybe she did hook up. Maybe not. But this was the catalyst for her to recapture a lost life style.
The risk of her taking things further outside the marriage is pretty high.

This reminds me of a spouse going back to a High School reunion without thier spouse and coming back confused and feeling apart from their mate, having nothing in common any more.

So you are acting on this and I am only catching up with the thread. I wish you luck. You must be firm. I agree with tunera on how to approach this. Your wife is slipping away. You have to bring her back into reality. I dod think this group of friends is going to be a huge problem for your marriage.

You will be called, controlling, jealous and insecure.

Her EA btw is with the group of friends. The life style. There may or may not be a specific guy she hangs with. It may very well not have anything to do with texting and facebook. That said, she could have a spearate phone you are not aware of. Not betting on that, but possible.

She and others will say, either you trust her or you do not. Her words say you should not.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

I appreciate the input about the friends... they are a sticky issue. I know, now after the past three days and reading and talking with my counselor, that she is clearly putting her time with her friends in front of our relationship. I am guilty of something similar with a volunteer group I work with. Yes, the volunteer group has much more positive societal impacts than the friends, but when I'm spending six to eight hours on a Saturday morning/afternoon she has off with a bunch of people in another town, it's really the same thing. And I've been doing that (albeit in other parts of the state) since I was 12. So it's comfortable and easy just as her friends are to her.

I know she's not using drugs. She's a registered nurse and her job requires regular drug tests. She's not going to jeopardize her license over some weed. Is she having an EA with them? Probably somewhat. At least using it as a chance to cut loose. She said just that when we talked... I'm not a cut loose sort of person (in her eyes) so that's the only chance to do that. My counter is how would she know? We're never out to do that... 

At the same time, when we talked she said she is done with going out with this group. She said she wants to stay home, focus on the family, and change things. I know... that's what she says and she hasn't done it, but you can really only take one's word until proven otherwise. She has never made that commitment before.

I've also thought about the distraction piece... that even a yes tonight might only be a "yes, for now" but I'll take that over a flat no or "I want a divorce". It's maneuvering room and time which are both currency in this process as best I can tell.

Most of the group are married... in fact I'm pretty sure they're all married or in relationships. I know, that's not a guarantee of anything, but it is what it is. The few single ones don't really hang with the married ones and she hangs with the married ones. In fact, just two nights ago we were talking about them and she was talking about a girl in the group she is close to and how flawed her marriage is. How she feels so bad for her and wishes she had more of what we have... wtf? really? I got very confused and really didn't know where to go with that.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

I didn't comment on the money or splitsville thing... I have gone there in my head, down the proverbial dark rabbit hole. While not fun I do believe in planning for contingencies. I've run the numbers at it would be extremely hard for her to make it alone. I've already thought through that I would get a place in the same town so that our son could have 50/50 placement. Primarily because I adore him and want to keep our relationship as normalized as possible. However, the side effect would be no child support from me, and she gets none for the oldest two from their father.

So now she's a single mom with three kids on one income, but makes too much to be eligible for any assistance programs (I work at a non-profit so I know that world quite well). She's quite stuck financially. We have combined debt that we would deal with, but all the household maintenance bills are still there, groceries, and she has a boatload of student loans in her name. Good luck there.

And she knows this too I believe. She's not dumb and even said she's wondered if she could do it. She can't.

I am keeping this in my pocket though in case the answer is "I don't know" or "no". Since it's not logistically or financially feasible for her to be on her own, there isn't really a better choice that making this work.

As far as custody... that's a tougher thing. The youngest adores his two older siblings and I wouldn't want to rip him away from that. Since the eldest two aren't mine I have no role to play there... but I can't really envision taking him away from them unless the wheels came off for my wife or things really deteriorated.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Good info. Some positive stuff. I would only add that it is optimal / ideal if both partners are "all in". In other words the marriage is the #1 priority. For both.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

The communication with the "artist" was an attempt at getting closer to him.

The fact that she does`t want you hanging with her friends is a HUGE red flag.

I believe your wife is very vulnerable for an affair.

You`ve caught it in time I think but you do need to work on it to get her past or through this vulnerability.

Also, I understand the problems with depression but IMO depression medications are a relationship killer in a lot of cases.
They dampen the neural chemicals that create and support love and empathy.

It does`t cost much money to get some alone time with your wife.
Picnics, walks in the park, or even just walking the neighborhood for a half hour in the evening will allow you a bit of time every day to connect and discuss the things that will bring you closer.
My wife and I found even some of that difficult when our kids were young so we`d set some time to just relax with a movie after the kids were in bed.
You need to make your relationship more attractive than her time with these friends.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

I agree that's she vulnerable for an affair, and I also have thought the messages with the artist were an attempt (and quite grateful that either he didn't find her attractive or her respected her married status).

I know I have to make time more attractive and be more involved. That's the plan. In her defense, it's not like she hasn't asked me to go out with her over the past seven months or so. Many times (until say the past two) she's said we should go do something this weekend. I then either ignore the statement or don't do anything about it. This is because we couldn't afford it. But I was keeping that from her, so I can't very well come out and say that now could I? Yes, quite dumb of me. But she isn't the big homebody type so she's going to go out. I've eliminated myself as an option, so of course she finds someone else to go with.

I actually believe had I been honest with her about the money she would've stayed home. She wouldn't have liked it per se (not that I do), but she would've done it to support the family and our finances. I know she's angry with me for not telling her as she looks back at all the wanted but not needed stuff she's bought over the past seven to eight months.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

eBay is your friend...


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

daddyo73 said:


> This is because we couldn't afford it. But I was keeping that from her, so I can't very well come out and say that now could I?


Yes actually you can.

Tell her you were keeping your financial troubles from her in a very misguided attempt to spare her the stress.

Apologize and explain the financial situation was the reason you kept blowing her off.
Tell her you realize now it was a bad mistake and it won`t ever happen again.

Start spending time with her because I believe you have gotten lucky to get ahead of what I think was eventually going to happen and may still happen if you don`t handle it well.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

tacoma said:


> Yes actually you can.
> 
> Tell her you were keeping your financial troubles from her in a very misguided attempt to spare her the stress.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I don't know why he would keep that from her.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

What makes your situation so hard to an outsider like me is that you really want to do the right thing, but she seems to be putting obstacles in the way.

I thought about the situation with her friends for a bit, and I just keep going back to how this seems to be so close to what could be going on with the marriage. I've been there, but on the other side. With my wife's depression and health decline, I've had to vacation alone with the kids on many occasions. To take her involves anxiety migraines. We have all of these pictures of vacations with men and women that I met and befriended. My wife really felt left out. Eventually, I realized that it was hurting her in ways that I never realized, although she was the one pushing to go alone. When your wife doesn't want you to be a part of something that is truly special to her, that is like telling you that she made the choice to put you on one particular shelf of her life. You don't get to mingle with the really important part of her. How in the h*ll could she ever say that she really loves you when the very idea of doing something that is 'really her' excludes you? The friends are not the problem, though. She has to make a decision that you belong in the same context as them.

BTW - I didn't really mean to imply that you should threaten to challenge custody. What I meant was that if she begins to seriously consider changing the rules of the marriage, you have to let her know that it is not a case of her determining the choices of what happens. The determining factor would only be what is good for the mental and financial wellbeing of the children.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

Well... in case there's anyone staying up late waiting for an update 

Our talk went... ok I guess. My wife did agree that we should work on our marriage, together, in the same house. It's pretty messy right now and if I had to put money on where this ends up, I'd go 50/50, but it's better than moving out tomorrow, right? Time equals maneuvering room after all.

I presented three options: 1) Separation/divorce right now, 2) do nothing and keep the status quo of us both being miserable, or 3) work on our relationship. With the knowledge that #3 is not an all or nothing option... that ultimately if it never gets better the other two options exist.

She agreed that #3 is the option we should follow. She doesn't know how to do that though. I really, truly don't believe our issue is following a standard relationship issue pattern. Yes, there are pieces, but being the constant alpha male (for example) is the prime issue. Being ignored isn't even the prime issue, it goes deeper.

It goes back to getting married. She now doesn't know that she should've gotten married. She even wonders if she really knows how to love someone else. She is highly concerned that she married me out of a need for security (young, recently divorced, two little kids and here comes this bad ass drill sergeant with a good job, decent money, and has his s*it together). She says for years she's put up walls to deal with the issues and doubts, but now those are crashing in.

I absolutely do not believe there is another man. She is not cheating and does not love someone else. She does love me, more platonic/caretaker, than romantic but there is love. She really reminds me of a ship lost at sea.

There is another issue that arose too... a trust issue. Of course exacerbated by the money cover-up that I did a few months back. Back, maybe two years ago, we were out at a bar together. At the behest of some friends I smoked weed for the first time in my life. It apparently made me lose my mind (I don't actually remember anything of the event). I apparently propositioned a friend of hers for sex and then cried about it the whole rest of the evening (I imagine I looked pretty pathetic). This is, according to her, the root of not wanting me around her friends. I really thought we were over that incident, but apparently not. So I have asked her to work on forgiving me for that. I think the intervening time of our marriage has shown me to not be a cheat. But her last comment was, "yeah but the marijuana made you say the truth". Which maybe it did... maybe I was attracted to her friend, but in any sane condition I would never, ever act on it (I'm attracted to Jessica Alba but I don't stalk her, save photos of her, or put up a shrine because a) that's creepy and b) it would hurt my wife).

In the end we agreed to do the following:
- She is going to go to individual counseling. Finally. I believe she needs this desperately and am very hopeful it works and she sticks with it.
- I am going to continue in IC as well. I plan to bring up the trust issue with my counselor and see if she has suggestions. I also need to work on the not being so emotional angle, it's a turn off for her and frankly not something I'm proud of either.
- We are not going to MC yet. She doesn't want to start MC until she has a rapport with an IC counselor. She's never gone to counseling in her life, so this is new territory for her.
- We are going to check in at least once a week with each other. See where things are. Start to introduce things at those talks like the Love Busters survey.
- We are going to clearly communicate our needs and what isn't working to each other, rather than make each other guess and be resentful.
- I am going to read Divorce Remedy and then she is going to read it. We'll discuss it at our check-ins.
- We will keep working on this until it gets better or there isn't a point anymore.
- We will continue to have sex on a regular basis because a) we both really like sex, b) that connection whether full of passion or not is important (better with passion but the neurochemistry behind sex is pretty powerful), and c) it was a deal-breaker for me. I can't have a sexless marriage and she doesn't want me to have one either.

And time will tell... I think this will be long. At the root of much of this is her anger. Anger at herself for being messed up in the head, then seeing how it effects others makes her feel bad, then being around those it negatively effects makes her not want to be around them. There are deep seated psych issues at play that will take time to tease out and resolve. I've told her I'm committed to standing by her throughout and supporting our children throughout.

Oh yeah... we discussed the going out with friends thing. That I feel she is prioritizing them over us. She understands that and has agreed that we can work on it. It goes to the trust thing above, but we will work on it.

So... was it what I had hoped? No, not entirely. I had hoped for "you ignore me and I feel unappreciated". That's easier to tackle, maybe, than this. But it could be much, much worse... so all in all it's turned out okay for now.

She did say as she headed up to bed that our last two talks are the best we've had in our eight years of marriage. And I think that may be hyperbole to some degree, but they are the most introspective we've had in a long time. So something useful and positive hopefully comes out of that.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

Oh yeah... there was some confusion early with my verb tenses... I couldn't tell her, say in June, that I didn't want to go out because of money because in June I was covering up that we were out of money.

But at the end of July I came clean about it and we are working on that now. We've cleaned up our mess and working in the positive direction.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not bad. You're both owning up to things. Just don't let her pull you over into the 'I screwed up worse so I have to let you do what you want' camp.


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## daddyo73 (Sep 10, 2011)

That's not going to happen. I've made mistakes, yes. But last night she confessed that, had she been braver, maybe she would've not married me, at least until she had time to sort her issues out. To me that is the most grievous of mistakes. I actually became fairly angry with her when she said that. But again, that's in the past, can't be changed, and we have three children caught in the middle that we have to consider.

I am starting to worry that she may have a borderline personality disorder condition. I hadn't really put it all together until last night as she talked about trust issues (which she agrees are irrational), her "spiraling" (where things start to fall apart and she just lets it go), her fear of abandonment, her flashpoint anger, her mood swings, etc... I don't believe it's a severe form of BPD if it exists, and hopefully that's what the counselor can help her figure out.

If it does exist it certainly would explain a lot...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's actually one of THE most common things that women do - marry for the wrong reasons - security, to feel grown up, impressions, cos it's 'what you do'...That's why I always recommend that people never marry before at least 25. Anyway, I hope she gets some clarity on her stuff.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

All this you are describing is Fitness testing... Saying she never should have married you, is not "in love" with you, her depression, sprialling... She is waiting for you to step up and create a marriage.


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