# Don't do anything you don't want to do - BAD ADVICE



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I think the lesson taught to (mostly) young women of "don't do anything sexual you don't want to do) is terrible advice, and sets them up for problems in marriage later.

People do lots of things in their lives that they don't enjoy. There is nothing wrong with doing something sexual for your partner that you don't particularly enjoy IF it is part of a healthy, loving and mutual relationship.

I know that this is taught to help women avoid real abuse, but I think it has be expanded to the point where one poster said "I don't get any pleasure out of HJs or BJs, so I don't do them". Not everything sexual needs to be directly for your own pleasure, it is great to sometimes just please your partner as long as they do the same for you. 

It is unbalanced sexual relationships, or the trading of sex for other things that needs to be avoided, not sexual favors done out of love. 
:soapbox:


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I used to agree with this idea, but now I don't.

I just don't think it's really possible.

I don't think women are capable of giving it "lovingly" for an extended period of time unless they personally are into it. Maybe once in a while, but as a regular thing, no.

They might do it, but they'll do it unenthusiastically or it will be the source of resentment for them. Also for the man too since he will know it's fake.

The corollary to this belief though is that men don't have to fake it either.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

You can find a partner who wants to do the things you want to do. Who wants to give pleasure and try new sexual acts out of love. Doing things you want to do does not mean you don't _also _ do things just to please your partner and do things out of love. 

People have things they don't want to try or have tried and don't want to do again. Men do too, not just women. 

Pressuring, begging, manipulating your partner into doing something they don't want to do is just asking for resentment down the road for both of them.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Right on, partner! My damn ex wife would never give in to my demands for a threescore with her best friend! What's up with that? And I take it you'd be open to your wife doing some pegging? 

BTW... The above was intended as a sarcastic "I agree in principle, but think everyone should be allowed their boundaries." 

C


----------



## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I think the lesson taught to (mostly) young women of "don't do anything sexual you don't want to do) is terrible advice, and sets them up for problems in marriage later.
> 
> People do lots of things in their lives that they don't enjoy. There is nothing wrong with doing something sexual for your partner that you don't particularly enjoy IF it is part of a healthy, loving and mutual relationship.
> ...


The key to a happy marriage is finding out about your partner's preferences BEFORE MARRIAGE. This can't be emphasized enough. Too many threads where the man marries this virginal bride who hardly shows sexual interests and expects her to suddenly turn into a vixen after marriage.

Just doesn't work that way. Men who are HD should marry the "loose" HD women who put out, and who are into you. Waiting for after the lustful " beginning of the relationship" stage will help to determine if she will stay attracted to you for the long haul. Keeping yourself attractive as you did in the beginning will help, don't give that up just because the ring is on her finger.


----------



## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

I agree OP, I think that as long it's between spouses and doesn't cause pain or health hazards then not much should be off limits. Most people aren't crazy about going to work, cooking dinner, cleaning house, etc... but do so anyway. I don't understand letting the needs of the person you profess to love mor than any other go unattended because you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

I think the key word in all of this is *mutual*. 

I think many women, myself included, won't/don't do stand alone bjs or hjs because it's not mutual. I don't want to feel used only for his sexual pleasure and would rather do other things. 

I see so many men on here complain about their wives not giving them bjs or hjs and the first thought that comes to my mind, is how often are they performing oral sex on their wives? Is there mutual pleasure given? It has to be a 2 way street or there will be problems.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I don't get anything out of listening to my wife complain about her day.

I guess I should stop that.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anonymous07 said:


> I think the key word in all of this is *mutual*.
> 
> I think many women, myself included, won't/don't do stand alone bjs or hjs because it's not mutual. I don't want to feel used only for his sexual pleasure and would rather do other things.
> 
> I see so many men on here complain about their wives not giving them bjs or hjs and the first thought that comes to my mind, is how often are they performing oral sex on their wives? Is there mutual pleasure given? It has to be a 2 way street or there will be problems.


May I ask you a hypothetical question?
If yes, please read on.

Let's say you were NOT married. Is there a man, perhaps a celebrity or such that you might be interested in giving a stand alone BJ?


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> People do lots of things in their lives that they don't enjoy. There is nothing wrong with doing something sexual for your partner that you don't particularly enjoy IF it is part of a healthy, loving and mutual relationship.


I don't fully agree with this. There is a HUGE emotional component to sexual activities. Expecting someone to engage in sexual activities which they feel are disgusting, degrading, or emotionally negative in some way will have serious repercussions in the long run. 

However, a person should realize if they are not willing to participate in any sexual activities at all (or only rarely), that there will likely also be serious repercussions in the long run which they don't have control over.

So even if they say they won't do activity X, they should say that they'll do Y and Z, and they'll do them so well that you won't miss the lack of X.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening anonymous07
I completely agree. It needs to be mutual, and it needs to be fair. 

To me "fair" means doing what your partner wants, it doesn't mean doing things you don't enjoy. So if person A enjoys everything person B likes, but there are some things A wants but B doesn't enjoy, I think it is still fine. Each should still please the other, even though A happens to enjoy everything but B does not. 

This applies to all of the relationship - one shouldn't "trade" sex for other things, but doing sexual favors in a relationship where both are consistently doing things for the other is fine.



As an example, I have told my wife that I am happy to do pretty much anything she wants in bed, anytime she wants, even if she does't feel like reciprocating at that time - though she almost never takes me up on that offer. Its not even though - she is only willing to do sexual things when she feels like it. 

I think stand-alone oral is fine - as long as each partner is willing to do it for the other. It doesn't need to be at the same time. 




Anonymous07 said:


> I think the key word in all of this is *mutual*.
> 
> I think many women, myself included, won't/don't do stand alone bjs or hjs because it's not mutual. I don't want to feel used only for his sexual pleasure and would rather do other things.
> 
> I see so many men on here complain about their wives not giving them bjs or hjs and the first thought that comes to my mind, is how often are they performing oral sex on their wives? Is there mutual pleasure given? It has to be a 2 way street or there will be problems.


----------



## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I don't get anything out of listening to my wife complain about her day.
> 
> I guess I should stop that.


:lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm going to agree with the "sex is different" perspective, but not in a way that's going to agree with some previous posters.

As I see it, sex is the ONLY thing that a married couple agrees to do exclusively with only one other person. You are allowed just about every other kind of interpersonal connection, with perhaps the exception of romantic love, with another person who is not your spouse. You are allowed sex with one and only one person in a marriage.

As such, this exclusivity raises the burden on both parties. A distinction should be made between things you dislike and things for which you simply don't care. The first ought not to be pressed for by your partner, even if you should probably give long consideration to the root of your dislike. The second falls into the same category as providing financial or emotional support in a marriage - something you do at least periodically for the sake of your partner.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

UMP said:


> Let's say you were NOT married. Is there a man, perhaps a celebrity or such that you might be interested in giving a stand alone BJ?


Nope. Not interested at all. 

As someone else had mentioned, sex many times can be much more than just a physical act. Personally, I have to feel emotionally connected in order to want sex. I have a high sex drive and would love sex every single day, but that changes when the emotions are not there. Lately I haven't felt loved/emotionally connected to my husband and my sex drive has dropped dramatically. 



richardsharpe said:


> Good evening anonymous07
> I completely agree. It needs to be mutual, and it needs to be fair.
> 
> To me "fair" means doing what your partner wants, it doesn't mean doing things you don't enjoy. So if person A enjoys everything person B likes, but there are some things A wants but B doesn't enjoy, I think it is still fine. Each should still please the other, even though A happens to enjoy everything but B does not.
> ...


I think it's okay for people to have boundaries. There are some things I am not comfortable doing sexually and no one will be able to persuade me otherwise. Even if my husband loved it, I still would not do it. I respect his sexual boundaries and expect him to respect mine as well. As an example, anal sex is off limits for me. I won't go there. If my husband liked it, he would just have to live without. If he kept pushing for it and wanted to do it anyways, I would lose respect for him.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

We both have things that constitute boundaries, and we're both good with each other's boundaries, especially as they're very similar and were established early on. However, many sexual activities and "treats" do NOT need to be mutual at the time - they only need to roughly be fair over time.

So, I'll get loving gratuitous blow jobs now and then, and she'll get a dozen or so gratuitous orgasms from manual manipulation while watching old movies (I wouldn't want to distract her from something new she hasn't already seen!).

She loves turning me on, and I love turning her on. Usually it's also mutual, but when it's not, we know there'll be something special for the other one soon.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
A lot of this is definitions. This is a big difference between "don't enjoy" and "is repulsed by" and "is painful". 

I guess I would put the line at "is as unpleasant as other things we need to do", laundry, washing dishes, work. 

I clean the cat's litterbox even though its my wife's cat.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I'm going to agree with the "sex is different" perspective, but not in a way that's going to agree with some previous posters.
> 
> As I see it, sex is the ONLY thing that a married couple agrees to do exclusively with only one other person. You are allowed just about every other kind of interpersonal connection, with perhaps the exception of romantic love, with another person who is not your spouse. You are allowed sex with one and only one person in a marriage.
> 
> As such, this exclusivity raises the burden on both parties. A distinction should be made between things you dislike and things for which you simply don't care. The first ought not to be pressed for by your partner, even if you should probably give long consideration to the root of your dislike. The second falls into the same category as providing financial or emotional support in a marriage - something you do at least periodically for the sake of your partner.


The problem is that anything my wife does to me sexually without personal enthusiasm is a complete fail, for me.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's my thoughts... We should be with a partner that we can openly discuss our sexual thoughts and desires with. If you're not, you may be with the wrong partner.

We should be open to new ideas with our partners, and be able to ponder them without judgement, ridicule, or immediate rejection.

This doesn't mean that we should be required to do everything our partner wants us to do. 

C


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> A lot of this is definitions. This is a big difference between "don't enjoy" and "is repulsed by" and "is painful".
> 
> I guess I would put the line at "is as unpleasant as other things we need to do", laundry, washing dishes, work.
> ...


Sex is much more intimate though, you are naked, putting something in/on your body. There's more mental and emotional blocks to it than doing the dishes.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UMP said:


> The problem is that anything my wife does to me sexually without personal enthusiasm is a complete fail, for me.


If she is willing but not enthusiastic but you require enthusiasm, perhaps the failure to find a suitable compromise doesn't lie at your wife's feet.

Doing something for your partner about which you are not enthusiastic can be done without a bunch of eye rolling or pouting, but faking enthusiasm is perhaps asking too much.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

On the surface, I don't have a problem with anyone who doesn't want to do something they don't want to do. However, everything has to be taken into context though. Bottom line is that during the dating phase it's up to the individuals to figure out what their limits are and find someone that matches their values. Unfortunately, too few people take the time to figure this out or worse - intentionally settle because someone checks "most of the boxes" or is a "stable choice". This is the real issue here, because in everything if there is a degree of trust and passion, you're more willing to explore your sexuality and you view sex as a positive sum game. If you do not trust your spouse nor are attracted to him/her sexually, sex becomes a zero sum game.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I don't think sex is more emotional than a lot of other interactions married couples have.

Sharing your hopes and dreams, supporting each other through setbacks, etc.

I think these are pretty much the same thing. 

If you lose one, you lose the other.

If you do any of these begrudgingly and with lots of rules and parameters (e.g., don't come to me about a death in your family unless it's Saturday night), then you'll have a sh*tty relationship.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I see nothing wrong with the advice " don't do what you don't want to do sexually". This should be a non issue in realtionships as this all needs to be flushed out prior to marriage.

If you need blow jobs then make sure you marry someone who is willing to give those. Anal sex same thing and so forth an so on.

Marrying someone then expecting them to suddenly fulfill every desire you have seems about as bad a bait and switch.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Cletus said:


> If she is willing but not enthusiastic but you require enthusiasm, perhaps the failure to find a suitable compromise doesn't lie at your wife's feet.
> 
> Doing something for your partner about which you are not enthusiastic can be done without a bunch of eye rolling or pouting, but faking enthusiasm is perhaps asking too much.


I would say I "expect" a loving wife to participate in xyz sex act enthusiastically. I don't think it's asking too much for the person you have devoted your entire life to, to be legitimately, honestly enthusiastic during sex.
The question I asked myself a couple years ago was, "why is she not enthusiastic about xyz?"
I started treating our sex life like a science project (behind the scenes) and realized it was all my fault. I was able to change myself into someone that she WANTED to have "enthusiastic" sex with.
Have you tried the same and were you successful?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UMP said:


> I would say I "expect" a loving wife to participate in xyz sex act enthusiastically. I don't think it's asking too much for the person you have devoted your entire life to, to be legitimately, honestly enthusiastic during sex.
> The question I asked myself a couple years ago was, "why is she not enthusiastic about xyz?"
> I started treating our sex life like a science project (behind the scenes) and realized it was all my fault. I was able to change myself into someone that she WANTED to have "enthusiastic" sex with.
> Have you tried the same and were you successful?


My wife wants to have enthusiastic sex with me. We just have a very different definition of what, where, when, and how "enthusiastic sex" is defined. She is enthusiastic about those things that she likes. 

She's never given anyone a blow job, for example. She never will. It isn't about me, my alpha status, how well I vacuum, wash the dishes, or gaze rapturously into her eyes while she tells me about her toe fungus. There is no man on earth attractive enough in any sense to overcome that revulsion. 

I can make her want sex with me more or less, within her parameters of acceptable sexual behavior. Parameters that I have had to push against to improve, else sex would still be missionary with the lights out under the covers. But you can only push someone's comfort zone so far. And when you do, you have to be willing to understand that some of what you get might be out of love, and not genuine enthusiasm. When you're lucky, even that can grow into mutual pleasure, over time.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
It is possible to do something for a partner as a gift - where you don't happen to enjoy it, but appreciate how much they enjoy it. If I give my wife a long massage, I don't feel like I am doing a "chore" I feel like I am doing a favor because she enjoys it. 

Sex IS different, but it seems easy for LD people to fall into the sort of selfish behavior where sex only happens when and how they want.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I think sex is only different because LD people say it is.

For me, sex is not different. You're not interested in me sexually, then you're not interested in ME.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'm going to agree with the "sex is different" perspective, but not in a way that's going to agree with some previous posters.
> 
> As I see it, sex is the ONLY thing that a married couple agrees to do exclusively with only one other person. You are allowed just about every other kind of interpersonal connection, with perhaps the exception of romantic love, with another person who is not your spouse. You are allowed sex with one and only one person in a marriage.
> 
> As such, this exclusivity raises the burden on both parties. A distinction should be made between things you dislike and things for which you simply don't care. The first ought not to be pressed for by your partner, even if you should probably give long consideration to the root of your dislike. The second falls into the same category as providing financial or emotional support in a marriage - something you do at least periodically for the sake of your partner.



If that's true then why are emotional affairs a problem, assuming you're not having sex?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I don't understand who takes acts thru know full well their partner doesn't want? I think spouses should be willing to push their boundaries a little but if women are going to be encouraged to do things they don't want maybe men should simultaneously be counseled that marriage doesn't entitle them to unlimited porn star sex.

Spouses should work these things out together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening lifeistooshort
I think it is all a matter of degree. Some of the posters (myself included) are coming from a relationship where one person has a very limited set of sexual activities that they will engage in - they essentially completely control sex - what they want, when they want, exactly how they want.

I know that in other relationships, sometimes people are pushed to do things that they really can't stand. 


As many have posted, the right answer is not to get into a sexually incompatible relationship, but many people (like myself) made that mistake many years ago, with so little prior experience that we didn't even know to think about the issue.




lifeistooshort said:


> I don't understand who takes acts thru know full well their partner doesn't want? I think spouses should be willing to push their boundaries a little but if women are going to be encouraged to do things they don't want maybe men should simultaneously be counseled that marriage doesn't entitle them to unlimited porn star sex.
> 
> Spouses should work these things out together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Richard I'm not sure it is fair or charitable to call LD people "lazy". Also since you aren't LD yourself you cannot empathize with how they feel, so it is impossible for you to say "why can't you just be more like me?" They could easily say the same.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Faithful Wife
I don't think I said 'lazy' but maybe I implied it with my posts - or maybe selfish.

Clearly the best advice is for people to avoid LD/HD relationships - they don't make anyone happy. I wish there was more discussion of this when people started dating. Its really critically important.

For people already in such a relationship, its tough. Leaving seems too dramatic. Yet the situation is fundamentally unfair to both. The LD person shouldn't have to have sex that they don't enjoy, but the HD person shouldn't be denied a sex life. 

I think what I'm mostly trying to get across to the LD people is how important this is. LD people don't themselves think of sex as important, and I think often really don't understand how important it is to their HD partners. Then they are completely blindsided when their partners leave or cheat. Often they also don't realize how terribly unbalanced the relationship has become. The LD person is not intentionally selfish, but that is the end result. 







Faithful Wife said:


> Richard I'm not sure it is fair or charitable to call LD people "lazy". Also since you aren't LD yourself you cannot empathize with how they feel, so it is impossible for you to say "why can't you just be more like me?" They could easily say the same.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Richard I'm not sure it is fair or charitable to call LD people "lazy". Also since you aren't LD yourself you cannot empathize with how they feel, so it is impossible for you to say "why can't you just be more like me?" They could easily say the same.


Agreed. To label LD's lazy one must also label HD's high maintenance and demanding. Neither is fair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening lifeistooshort
> I think it is all a matter of degree. Some of the posters (myself included) are coming from a relationship where one person has a very limited set of sexual activities that they will engage in - they essentially completely control sex - what they want, when they want, exactly how they want.
> 
> I know that in other relationships, sometimes people are pushed to do things that they really can't stand.
> ...


Hi Richard. I also think a big mistake HD's make is in assuming that a partner who doesn't seem to be into sex as much is in fact LD. That is not always the case as evidence by the number of LD's that have affairs. I'm not saying this is true in your case as I have no idea so I'm throwing it out as a general statement.....there are a lot of factors that can make a woman lose interest in sex, some her partner's fault and some that have little to do with him. I am of the opinion that most women have a sex drive, but they may not be that into their partners. I know that's painful to contemplate, but often is the case. Sex for women is complicated as are long term relationships in general, and many factors from this thing called life come into play.

I imagine this is true for men as well but since I'm a woman I speak from that perspective. I have been both LD and higher drive at different points in my life and almost all of it was circumstantial.....some things were because of my partner and some weren't.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> If that's true then why are emotional affairs a problem, assuming you're not having sex?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Emotional affairs are to my mind romantic love, which I included in my list.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I don't make my husband go shopping at the mall because I know he hates it. If he did go, he might try to fake having a good time but I know inside he's miserable. That takes all the fun out of it.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I don't understand who takes acts thru know full well their partner doesn't want? I think spouses should be willing to push their boundaries a little but if women are going to be encouraged to do things they don't want maybe men should simultaneously be counseled that marriage doesn't entitle them to unlimited porn star sex.
> 
> Spouses should work these things out together.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That would be a wonderful world to live in. 

Perhaps you're not familiar with the the boundaries to which I and some other posters are referring? This will be old news for the old hats here, but as a quick refresher this was my sex life at the beginning of my marriage:

1. Sex with the lights off in bed under the covers
2. Missionary or cowgirl only
3. No touching breasts
4. No touching below the waist at any time
5. No oral, either way
6. Foreplay consists of 5 minutes of kissing

There was really only one direction to work "together", and that required pushing on some boundaries.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening lifeistooshort
I agree - sometimes someone may not be interested in sex with their partner for very valid reasons which that partner could (if they were willing to) fix. Sometimes not. 

In fact I think it is this difference in experience that colors these discussions. There are people who are not really LD but who don't want sex and who map that onto other situations. There are people with LD partners who have done everything possible to try to improve things - and they carry that bias into the discussion.

Sometimes its difficult to tell. In my case, I can't think of anything else I could do, and my wife is not able to describe anything that would make her more interested. She claims that she has no interest in anyone (but could be trying to avoid hurting my feelings) - just is often too "tired" for sex. 

When she change from very-LD to modestly-LD (she still thinks sex every week or two is normal), she couldn't explain at all why, or what had changed. 





lifeistooshort said:


> Hi Richard. I also think a big mistake HD's make is in assuming that a partner who doesn't seem to be into sex as much is in fact LD. That is not always the case as evidence by the number of LD's that have affairs. I'm not saying this is true in your case as I have no idea so I'm throwing it out as a general statement.....there are a lot of factors that can make a woman lose interest in sex, some her partner's fault and some that have little to do with him. I am of the opinion that most women have a sex drive, but they may not be that into their partners. I know that's painful to contemplate, but often is the case. Sex for women is complicated as are long term relationships in general, and many factors from this thing called life come into play.
> 
> I imagine this is true for men as well but since I'm a woman I speak from that perspective. I have been both LD and higher drive at different points in my life and almost all of it was circumstantial.....some things were because of my partner and some weren't.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening soccermom2three
The problme is that nothing else is like sex. It is not considered wrong and evil for you to go to the mall alone because he doesn't want to go with you. 

That is what makes sex problems unique - we only allow married people to get sex from their partners - really nothing else is like that. 



soccermom2three said:


> I don't make my husband go shopping at the mall because I know he hates it. If he did go, he might try to fake having a good time but I know inside he's miserable. That takes all the fun out of it.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> That would be a wonderful world to live in.
> 
> Perhaps you're not familiar with the the boundaries to which I and some other posters are referring? This will be old news for the old hats here, but as a quick refresher this was my sex life at the beginning of my marriage:
> 
> ...


Well I hope you guys worked it out, your wife was really denying herself a lot of pleasure. Can I assume you have?


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> A lot of this is definitions. This is a big difference between "don't enjoy" and "is repulsed by" and "is painful".
> 
> I guess I would put the line at "is as unpleasant as other things we need to do", laundry, washing dishes, work.
> ...


Letting sex get tied to activities of daily living sets up a bad dynamic

The belief that woman should give men sexual pleasure because they love him is a fallacy. I don't think that men even believe it themselves. The vast majority of women certainly don't. Not many will say it in words. 

It's another bad dynamic to expect and ask for unreciprocated sexual pleasure. 

Sex needs to be mutual pleasure. I really think this is important. Women want sexual satisfaction as much as men. The thought that woman in love are more than happy to give their special man sexual pleasure and not get any in return is a throwback to a former era. 

It's another bad dynamic. Women are as interested in sexual pleasure as men. ****s enjoy sexual pleasure and nice girls enjoy giving sexual pleasure is BS.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening soccermom2three
> The problme is that nothing else is like sex. It is not considered wrong and evil for you to go to the mall alone because he doesn't want to go with you.
> 
> That is what makes sex problems unique - we only allow married people to get sex from their partners - really nothing else is like that.


Well Richard, you're the one that compared sex to housework and changing kitty litter upthread so I'm just doing some comparing of my own.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Well I hope you guys worked it out, your wife was really denying herself a lot of pleasure. Can I assume you have?


No. Progress with this kind of person involves baby steps over long time spans with limited success. Better? Yes, but it will never be anything approaching normal. I'm 30 years in now, and I know that to the core.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Catherin602 
if only that were true in my case. My wife just isn't very interested. She likes mild intimacy - we hugged and kissed on the sofa while watching TV today - but rarely wants sex. 

When we do have sex she almost always has an orgasm (from something we are doing, not always PIV) - more often than I do. She *could* have been faking for 30 years, but I honestly don't think so. Certainly I always make it clear that I am happy to do anything she wants in bed. 

So, in a situation like mine, what is the right answer? She just doesn't wan't sex often - maybe 1/month, she makes an effort to get to 1/week, and that has been failing lately. 



Catherine602 said:


> snip
> 
> Sex needs to be mutual pleasure. I really think this is important. Women want sexual satisfaction as much as men. The thought that woman in love are more than happy to give their special man sexual pleasure and not get any in return is a throwback to a former era.
> 
> It's another bad dynamic. Women are as interested in sexual pleasure as men. ****s enjoy sexual pleasure and nice girls enjoy giving sexual pleasure is BS.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Cletus said:


> That would be a wonderful world to live in.
> 
> Perhaps you're not familiar with the the boundaries to which I and some other posters are referring? This will be old news for the old hats here, but as a quick refresher this was my sex life at the beginning of my marriage:
> 
> ...


Cletus, 
How long have you been working on this? 30 Years?
Regarding the list above, where are you now in relation to that list?
Have you given up or just learned to accept the status quo?


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Letting sex get tied to activities of daily living sets up a bad dynamic
> 
> The belief that woman should give men sexual pleasure because they love him is a fallacy. I don't think that men even believe it themselves. The vast majority of women certainly don't. Not many will say it in words.
> It's another bad dynamic to expect and ask for unreciprocated sexual pleasure.
> ...


That's a down right shame.

I guess its also true that women who think that men who love them will just give her everything she wants emotionally is also a throw back to a former era.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> That's a down right shame.
> 
> I guess its also true that women who think that men who love them will just give her everything she wants emotionally is also a throw back to a former era.


I'll give my wife ANYTHING, with joy, if it eventually makes her randy, for me.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

UMP said:


> I'll give my wife ANYTHING, with joy, if it eventually makes her randy, for me.


have more respect for yourself. once a woman figures this out they will use it against you.

ANYTHING......surely you don't mean that.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> have more respect for yourself. once a woman figures this out they will use it against you.
> 
> ANYTHING......surely you don't mean that.


Respect for myself? What in the world are you talking about? I love my wife and want her to be as attracted to me as possible.
What I am saying is that I want to be THE man that makes her legs shake. I think it takes a lifetime to understand only ONE woman. Given where we started 23 years ago, I'm doing a damn good job. IMO.

Rephrase: I will do ANYTHING that makes me more attractive in her eyes. That may be a million different things including, but not limited to standing up for myself, being more alpha, listening, weight lifting, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.............


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Chillymorn, 
Let me give you an example.
Most would say that you must communicate your sexual desires with your wife. I tried that for 20 years and ended up with blue balls. I figured out that the mere mention of sex with my wife will tank her attraction for me. What she likes (and I had to figure this out on my own) is MYSTERY. I can talk about wanting anal sex till I'm blue in the face and she will always say "no." However, If I toy with her anus little by little over months and months and months, she'll let me in. I CANNOT talk about it, even afterwards. She wants it to be as if it never happened. That's what SHE finds attractive and sexy. So, that's what I do.
Figuring out what makes your wife tick takes a lifetime of trial and error.

Edit: Another example, she loves when I use toys but does NOT want to see them before sex or even talk about their very existence. She won't even look at the actual toy when in use. That's just HER! But, it took me 20 friggen years to figure this out.

Just tonight, we are going on a "date" night, dinner and a movie. However, after the movie, unbeknownst to her, I made a reservation at a hotel next to the theatre. I will not tell her until we drive up to the hotel. I pack the car ahead of time with wine, clothes toiletries, etc. I will pull up to the hotel and say, "honey, we're going to have sex in that hotel tonight." She'll coyly smile without saying a word and follow me in.

I even track her period and keep records on how successful I was given the particular day in her cycle. Some say ovulation is best. My records indicate otherwise. BUT, I had to put in the time and work to figure it out on my own.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

UMP said:


> Chillymorn,
> Let me give you an example.
> Most would say that you must communicate your sexual desires with your wife. I tried that for 20 years and ended up with blue balls. I figured out that the mere mention of sex with my wife will tank her attraction for me. What she likes (and I had to figure this out on my own) is MYSTERY. I can talk about wanting anal sex till I'm blue in the face and she will always say "no." However, If I toy with her anus little by little over months and months and months, she'll let me in. I CANNOT talk about it, even afterwards. She wants it to be as if it never happened. That's what SHE finds attractive and sexy. So, that's what I do.
> Figuring out what makes your wife tick takes a lifetime of trial and error.
> ...


that's all great and dandy..........But

what is she going to do for you.......wouldn't you like to feel desired lusted after.....Not all the time but there should be some give and take.

shouldn't she want to rock your world and make you shaky in the legs.

seems like she get all the attention as you put a HUGE amount of time into what she wants and is too shy to communicate with you what you might like.

as long as your good with this dynamic then great....But personally I would and have grown tired of putting in so much effort with no reciprocation in return. 

A nice sexy outfit and a I can wait I've been thinking about you all day would go a long way an unsolicited blow jobs etc etc etc


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UMP said:


> Cletus,
> How long have you been working on this? 30 Years?


29 and change, to be precise.



> Regarding the list above, where are you now in relation to that list?
> Have you given up or just learned to accept the status quo?


#1 is no longer an issue. 
#2 is definitely improved
#3-#6 are the same. 

My wife to her core thinks that sex==face to face intercourse and little else. What changes we have made have been things that don't violate this Prime Directive. I have given up trying to make progress any longer. It's counterproductive, causes stress to our relationship, and ultimately doesn't accomplish very much useful. 

It wasn't until it seeped into my bones that there was really nothing to be done about it that I finally found peace. I no longer desire sex with my wife very much, and while I don't like that statement intellectually, if I'm honest with myself it doesn't really bother me that much either. We have sex at her request, which is roughly 3 or 4 times a month, and I follow the script. 

Problem solved. But to stay on topic, I did have to push against her boundaries to get the limited successes I enjoy today. But I was only able to push at the edges - the core issues are intractable.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

chillymorn said:


> that's all great and dandy..........But
> 
> what is she going to do for you.......wouldn't you like to feel desired lusted after.....Not all the time but there should be some give and take.
> 
> ...


She's lusting just fine after we get started. My wife will simply NOT initiate. If she does, I need the detective skills of Sherlock Holmes to figure it out. But you know what, I DON'T CARE because I'm having the BEST FRIGGEN SEX OF MY LIFE, sans exception. AND, I'm an old fart of 52 years of age who had a heart attack 7 years ago. It's so good I worry I'll die in bed with her!

You have to think of it this way. Even if my wife will probably never answer the front door naked, unzip my pants and suck me dry, I don't care as long as I KNOW I rock her world in bed. The reciprocation comes when I can CLEARLY see she wants me.
That's all I need. Genuine enthusiasm about sex, with me.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Cletus said:


> My wife to her core thinks that sex==face to face intercourse and little else. What changes we have made have been things that don't violate this Prime Directive. I have given up trying to make progress any longer. It's counterproductive, causes stress to our relationship, and ultimately doesn't accomplish very much useful.


In the past, when you "tried" to make progress, what was your process for introducing your desires to her?

For my wife, in order to make progress, I cannot use words. It's analogous to fighting a boxing match with your hands tied behind your back.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*
The world is full of HD^2 folks. 
HD (high drive) * HD (high desire to please their partner in and out of bed) = HD^2

And you can tell these folks all day long that the second half of their HD is the reason they are near celibate - without effect. 

Nothing more painful than watching genuinely kind folks self sabotage.....

*

QUOTE=richardsharpe;11586553]Good evening Faithful Wife
I don't think I said 'lazy' but maybe I implied it with my posts - or maybe selfish.

Clearly the best advice is for people to avoid LD/HD relationships - they don't make anyone happy. I wish there was more discussion of this when people started dating. Its really critically important.

For people already in such a relationship, its tough. Leaving seems too dramatic. Yet the situation is fundamentally unfair to both. The LD person shouldn't have to have sex that they don't enjoy, but the HD person shouldn't be denied a sex life. 

I think what I'm mostly trying to get across to the LD people is how important this is. LD people don't themselves think of sex as important, and I think often really don't understand how important it is to their HD partners. Then they are completely blindsided when their partners leave or cheat. Often they also don't realize how terribly unbalanced the relationship has become. The LD person is not intentionally selfish, but that is the end result.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UMP said:


> In the past, when you "tried" to make progress, what was your process for introducing your desires to her?
> 
> For my wife, in order to make progress, I cannot use words. It's analogous to fighting a boxing match with your hands tied behind your back.


With my wife, if I do NOT discuss something beforehand, it's tantamount to rape. If I ask, she needs days to process the information before she's willing to consider it. I risk losing fingers in a covert operation.

But I already know that if it takes that much effort to wrap her brain around an idea, it's already a non-starter.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Cletus said:


> With my wife, if I do NOT discuss something beforehand, it's tantamount to rape. If I ask, she needs days to process the information before she's willing to consider it. I risk losing fingers in a covert operation.
> 
> But I already know that if it takes that much effort to wrap her brain around an idea, it's already a non-starter.


Would she care if you got what you wanted from someone else?
(not condoning this course of action, just interested in her opinion)


----------



## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sex is much more intimate though, you are naked, putting something in/on your body. There's more mental and emotional blocks to it than doing the dishes.


you need to fix your relationship first. I think the OP on this thread is assuming you have a halfway reasonable relationship.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UMP said:


> Would she care if you got what you wanted from someone else?
> (not condoning this course of action, just interested in her opinion)


Let's be clear here. I'm not in an asexual marriage. I have a kind, loving, caring, compassionate, sexually constipated wife. She enjoys sex, orgasms regularly, and is the primary initiator in my relationship as long as we play by her rules. Three years here have taught me how bad it really can get, and I'm grateful for not being in one of those marriages. 

A mistress would be out of the question, and I doubt I would care to go down that road myself. I am resigned to my fate, which is of my own choosing, and for which I accept full responsibility. I have it good but for one issue that the older I get, the less I care about.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I think some posters who haven't been in the situation have difficult believing that there are people who are really LD. 

It is not that their partners are doing too little. It is not that their partners are doing too much. Their partners dress well, are not ugly, do not smell bad, and brush their teeth. Their partners are loving and caring, are not weak or pitiful. Their partners have respectable jobs, interesting hobbies, and are well liked. The LD partner "loves" the HD partner, and the HD partner gives all sorts of gestures of that love. The HD partner engages in non-sexual physical affection. The HD partner is knowledgeable about sex and is open to doing what the LD partner wants. The HD partner is happy to be dominant, submissive or anything else. 

The LD partner will say that they are tired, or ill, or busy. There are important things that need to be done, higher priorities. They are not in the mood, or some specific incident has killed their interest at this time. Often they are sorry that they are not interested "right now", but promise to be "next weekend / week / whatever". These statements are true in the sense that they really believe them. The LD person truly loves their HD partner, does not desire anyone else, and would be devastated if the HD partner left. They will do anything *except sex* for thier HD partner.

The LD partner does not want sex. 

The HD partner wants sex.


There is nothing either of them can do to fix it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cletus,

Huge amount of respect for you and the way you have handled this situation. 

And totally agree with your assessment of the relative go forward importance of this issue....



QUOTE=Cletus;11594529]Let's be clear here. I'm not in an asexual marriage. I have a kind, loving, caring, compassionate, sexually constipated wife. She enjoys sex, orgasms regularly, and is the primary initiator in my relationship as long as we play by her rules. Three years here have taught me how bad it really can get, and I'm grateful for not being in one of those marriages. 

A mistress would be out of the question, and I doubt I would care to go down that road myself. I am resigned to my fate, which is of my own choosing, and for which I accept full responsibility. I have it good but for one issue that the older I get, the less I care about.[/QUOTE]


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Let's be clear here. I'm not in an asexual marriage. I have a kind, loving, caring, compassionate, sexually constipated wife. She enjoys sex, orgasms regularly, and is the primary initiator in my relationship as long as we play by her rules. Three years here have taught me how bad it really can get, and I'm grateful for not being in one of those marriages.
> 
> A mistress would be out of the question, and I doubt I would care to go down that road myself. I am resigned to my fate, which is of my own choosing, and for which I accept full responsibility. I have it good but for one issue that the older I get, the less I care about.


Let me tell you a story. It happened by accident, but produced some interesting results. 
Awhile back, my wife was out of town with her extended family on a vacation. I stay home on the farm during this time to catch up on felling trees, etc. Anyway, during this time, in the evening, I go to fine bar restaurants and sit at the bar eating a good meal, alone. I went to this particular fine establishment and sat at the bar. The owner of this place hires super model types as bartenders. I had two drinks and was completely floored! I think someone put "ecstasy" (or something similar) in my drink. The two bartenders were flirting with me and one winked to me as she left wanting me to follow her home.(I did not follow) I ended up dancing with this girl that would not stop looking at me. I got there at 6:00pm and could not walk straight at closing time, 2:00am. I ended up taking a cab ride home. 

When I got home, I felt so bad that I IMMEDIATELY at 3:00am called up my wife and told her EVERYTHING, in DETAIL. She was hurt but did forgive me. 
The interesting part is that from the moment she got home and for several MONTHS afterward, she was a monster in bed. She had NEVER EVER been that into it in our 23 years.
Something clicked in her head that told her, "there are other women out there that find my husband attractive. Maybe I should up my game a bit and make him as happy as possible or someone might take him away."

Again, I in NO WAY planned this and had been doing the same thing without incident for years while she was away.

Now, when I sense my wife is floating away from me, becoming uninterested and not making progress in the sex department, I get up and do something fun for MYSELF by myself. When she sees that I could, if pushed, be completely content by myself, she ups her game again. It's a cat and mouse game that I need to play. I have NO desire to cheat and never have. 

Just an observation.


----------



## ThoughtsUnknown (Sep 22, 2014)

OP glad you are an advocate for rape. Seriously? WTF is wrong with you?


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening thoughtsunknown
what in the original post suggests rape to you? Surely you don't consider it rape if someone voluntarily does something sexual for the purpose of pleasing their partner? 

Isn't it only rape if it is involuntary, forced, coerced, drugged etc?

The difference between freely-given sexual favors and rape is the same as the difference between volunteer work and slavery. 




ThoughtsUnknown said:


> OP glad you are an advocate for rape. Seriously? WTF is wrong with you?


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> There is nothing either of them can do to fix it.


I disagree. I would consider myself HD and my wife LD through out our 23 year marriage. 
However, my definition of drive might be different than yours. If you gave me a choice between starfish sex everyday or great sex once a week, I would take the once a week, hands down.
My goal was to lower my frequency expectations to more closely match hers and my wife has been able to raise the QUALITY substantially to match my expectations. I call it a win-win.

BTW: We are at about, on average, once every 4 days. If I sense the quality dropping, I'll try to prolong the time in between.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening UMP
I completely agree that sex with an uninterested partner is worthless. (why using a call girl has never had any appeal). There is a difference though between uninterested, and a voluntary favor. If I give my wife a massage, the physical sensation of doing it does nothing for me, but I am happy to do it because she is enjoying it. (I can't come up with a purely sexual example because there is nothing sexual that she enjoys that I don't enjoy doing).

She is enthusiastic during sex, but without constant reminders the frequency continues to decline, we got to a more than 3-month gap when I complained. It went back to every other day, but now has declined to every other week. I really don't want to complain again but..






UMP said:


> I disagree. I would consider myself HD and my wife LD through out our 23 year marriage.
> However, my definition of drive might be different than yours. If you gave me a choice between starfish sex everyday or great sex once a week, I would take the once a week, hands down.
> My goal was to lower my frequency expectations to more closely match hers and my wife has been able to raise the QUALITY substantially to match my expectations. I call it a win-win.


----------



## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

ThoughtsUnknown said:


> OP glad you are an advocate for rape. Seriously? WTF is wrong with you?


Is this all you have to add to this discussion? Really?



I have been thinking about this thread most of this morning. My personal opinion and my own experience has led me to the conclusion that it is less important to me now what my wife and I do sexually, and more important to me that we connect emotionally.

But I am in the admirable situation that I have a willing wife, one who likes to do the things I want her to do. One who likes the things I do with her. One who likes to ask me to do things for her.

Now in light of this willingness I have relaxed - for lack of a better term - in what I want to do sexually. Very early on I took anal penetration off of the table - mostly because of what I read here from a few of the women who had enjoyed anal but had gotten injured doing it. I knew that I did not want to risk this with my wife. I could very easily eliminate this from my desires.

And then I started looking at other sexual practices which men - for the most part - seem to view as Holy Grail type activities.

Oral sex.... like I said before, she is willing and we both give and receive here, although I rarely receive to completion because at some point I can't resist being in her.

threesomes.... female...? a deal breaker for her ...
male? so problematic... I can't even begin to list all the problems this could cause.

deepthroat.... well, kind of one sided, and again the chance for injury, and despite porns obsession with it, I don't think women really enjoy this. I think of this as one of those "sexual olympics" type activities. Few can do it, even fewer can do it well.

Fetishes... name one - it doesn't matter, because my original point is are we connecting emotionally? As long as there is emotional connection then it's okay, but when the fetish becomes more important than the person, then there can be problems.

Role play? Emotional connection...

Positions? Emotional connection...

Dress up? Lingerie? Emotional connection....

watching porn? I've thought about it, but I don't think we need this particular can of worms opened up. 

I have found that as long as I always focus on emotional connection my wife is willing to do and try most anything I suggest. And maybe the reason is that I am not being outlandish in my requests, because I want that emotional connection more than I want any physical thing, so maybe I am "censoring" my requests, and maybe because the more we connect emotionally the more I see that this is what I have wanted all along. Everything else was just a shallow substitute.

I have also learned that being empathetic helps both of us, and being shame free about my desire for sex has freed me up to be more honest and aggressive about my desires.

So this is my current experience - and it might not resonate with anyone else here.

In general I agree that in a relationship there are times that one partner does something just for the sake of the other. I don't mind if my wife "uses" me. I am hers to be used.

I certainly do not agree with the poster who I quoted. Her reaction is the kind of shaming statement which brings a swift stop to a rousing discussion of the complexities of love and sex in a marriage.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening UMP
> I completely agree that sex with an uninterested partner is worthless. (why using a call girl has never had any appeal). There is a difference though between uninterested, and a voluntary favor. If I give my wife a massage, the physical sensation of doing it does nothing for me, but I am happy to do it because she is enjoying it. (I can't come up with a purely sexual example because there is nothing sexual that she enjoys that I don't enjoy doing).
> 
> She is enthusiastic during sex, but without constant reminders the frequency continues to decline, we got to a more than 3-month gap when I complained. It went back to every other day, but now has declined to every other week. I really don't want to complain again but..


When I sense the frequency or quality drop to unacceptable levels, I stop, go to my man cave and think to myself, "why?"
What has happened in our lives to cause this? Is it me? Is it something I have done that she dislikes and causes me to be unattractive to her? Or, is it something in her life, stresses, family problems, mental or physical pain, etc. What I ABSOLUTELY NEVER DO IS TALK TO HER ABOUT IT! I learned that LONG ago. Most of the time, it's something that I have done. For example, and I know this is really weird, but here goes.
When I started this journey I was at least 40 pounds overweight, so I lost the 40 pounds and it produced some great results. HOWEVER, even if I maintain my weight, I can sense that me curling up on the couch with her, eating a quart of chocolate ice cream from the container REALLY turns her off. It's just one more thing I've learned and try to avoid around her.

I think of my wife as a great gift that is comprised of a million boxes one inside the other, inside the other and so on. It will take me a lifetime to discover all she has to offer, but I have to take the time to figure her out and unwrap each and every one of those boxes, till I die. She is a great mystery that I have to solve and I love every minute of it!

Please don't think my wife has me by the balls. She absolutely does not. In fact, I actually tell her after sex sometimes, "if you can find someone to f$ck you better than I do, go for it."
I simply find it a great adventure and opportunity to try to understand and enjoy my wife (sex in particular) to the fullest.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Sex is much more intimate though, you are naked, putting something in/on your body. There's more mental and emotional blocks to it than doing the dishes.


I've never thrown up from the grossness of a sexual act. (Though I can think of one that might do the trick) I can not say the same about washing dishes. Perhaps sexual interest has allowed me to remove those mental and emotional blocks. No such incentive exists for dishes.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

sparkyjim said:


> Is this all you have to add to this discussion? Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


GREAT post !!


----------



## tornado (Jan 10, 2014)

When a husband and wife forget about themselves and do whatever they can to make sure they meet the others physical, emotional, sexual, spiritual needs then they will find few problems in their marriage.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

tornado said:


> When a husband and wife forget about themselves and do whatever they can to make sure they meet the others physical, emotional, sexual, spiritual needs then they will find few problems in their marriage.


I agree completely.
However, along the way, meeting those needs might become a "duty" which I personally find abhorrent as it relates to sex in particular. 
In my opinion, the key to NOT getting duty sex has been to NOT talk about it, but to find out the root "cause" of the "duty."
I believe there is a "cause" for everything. Now, some of those causes may be so severe that there is indeed no remedy.
More often than not, in my marriage, I am the "cause" of my wife's doling out duty sex. I do realize we do not live in a perfect world and some days are naturally better than other days. Regardless, I look for causes and I look for fixes, always.
For the last couple years, since I started this process, it's been an overall gain, month to month.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> ....I know that this is taught to help women avoid real abuse, but I think it has be expanded to the point where one poster said "I don't get any pleasure out of HJs or BJs, so I don't do them". :soapbox:


You understand the core reason. 

I personally like Dr D Schnarch's comments about about doing new disgusting things until you like them and they become part of "you." For example, in one of his books he stalks about french kissing as being a really disgusting thing until you have tried it a few times and get into it. He say who would want another persons saliva in their mouth? Ick. He has some other interesting examples in his book. Personally, I like the Sex in the City's Samanth Jones quote of "I am a try-sexual, I'll try anything once."

There are a lot of things in sex that the first time we try them and it is sort of like, "who the hell would find think that is worth doing," then after a while those same things become whoa I had no idea something could make me feel so good. Often times we do them a second or third time because our partner really enjoyed it and we want them to be happy even if it didn't rock us.

Having said all that, there is a lot of abuse out there, physical and emotionaly. What is abusive is in the eye of the beholder. There are some things that can some enjoy that others find really abusive. For example what a spanking masocist might love, might be real physical spouse abuse for another person. It could also get you locked up in jail if you tried it with the wrong person, even if they were your wife/husband.

Similarly, some love humiliation as a way of spicing up their sex. Others would find that emotionally abusive. YMMV, so be careful.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> Huge amount of respect for you and the way you have handled this situation.
> 
> And totally agree with your assessment of the relative go forward importance of this issue....


Thank you for that, it's why I'm still here, and it means a lot coming from you. I have made far too many mistakes on this issue over the years - mistakes big enough to sink a marriage - so while I no longer look for input on how to solve this in my life, I'll continue to try to put some school of hard knocks lessons into the forum for the consideration of others.


----------



## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

UMP said:


> ...However, along the way, meeting those needs might become a "duty" which I personally find abhorrent as it relates to sex in particular...


When my wife and I were recovering from a Sex Starved Marriage, and working with a sex therapist, I learned a valuable lesson. That lesson was that when my wife isn't in the mode for sex, but she offers me the gift of her body, out of love for me and wanting to feel my joy, I should accept her gift and not overthink things.

Sure, I would love to always have a wife who wants to jump my bones, but some nights she might be tired have things on her mind and yet she might want to feel connected to me. She might not be able to clear her mind of daily issues, but she still wants to hold me in her arms, feel me orgasm, know that she is a sexual being who can physically please her man, and snuggle with me after I have cum. She can want the emotionally closeness that comes after sex and I should not deny her that pleasure.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> The LD partner "loves" the HD partner . . .
> 
> The LD partner will say that they are tired, or ill, or busy. There are important things that need to be done, higher priorities. They are not in the mood, or some specific incident has killed their interest at this time. Often they are sorry that they are not interested "right now", but promise to be "next weekend / week / whatever". These statements are true in the sense that they really believe them. The LD person truly loves their HD partner, does not desire anyone else, and would be devastated if the HD partner left. They will do anything *except sex* for thier HD partner.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing-- I can guarantee you that if the HD partner left the scene, the LD partner would suddenly find her libido when she started dating someone else.

Maybe a very, very small percentage would never date again. OK, for them, I accept that they are truly LD.

But I think the very tough thing to accept is that almost all LD is situational.

So in that sense, the LD spouse does not really love the HD spouse.

Sad fact to realize, but I think unavoidable if you are being honest with yourself.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Young at Heart said:


> When my wife and I were recovering from a Sex Starved Marriage, and working with a sex therapist, I learned a valuable lesson. That lesson was that when my wife isn't in the mode for sex, but she offers me the gift of her body, out of love for me and wanting to feel my joy, I should accept her gift and not overthink things.
> 
> Sure, I would love to always have a wife who wants to jump my bones, but some nights she might be tired have things on her mind and yet she might want to feel connected to me. She might not be able to clear her mind of daily issues, but she still wants to hold me in her arms, feel me orgasm, know that she is a sexual being who can physically please her man, and snuggle with me after I have cum. She can want the emotionally closeness that comes after sex and I should not deny her that pleasure.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


I wish I could like this 100 times.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> That's a down right shame.
> 
> I guess its also true that women who think that men who love them will just give her everything she wants emotionally is also a throw back to a former era.


I have sex with my husband, we both get a great deal out of it. That's what keeps me interested in it, I like orgasms. He does too.  I can give orgasms without worrying about getting one once in a while but I couldn't have a steady diet of that, too frustrating. 

I would not even hint that my husband should give me orgasms with none for himself and act happy about it. I know he can't do it without a great deal of discomfort to himself. Too useless an exercise. We can both have fun so why deny either of us. If he wants to be unselfish, there are plenty of other ways. Sex is mutual for us not a sacrificial. I am lucky, my husband does not like unreciprocated sexual pleasure for himself. He explained that he has a hard time relaxing thinking about me being left frustrated. 

Am I a horrible woman because I like having orgasms with my husband much much more than giving orgasms to my husband? It is so easy for both of us to have them why should either of us go on a restriction diet when there is so much abundance?? It is much hotter and emotionally bonding for us to collapse together because we are equally worn out. 

What a silly idea - "women who think that men who love them will just give her everything she wants emotionally". Just as silly as "men who think that women who love them will just give him everything he wants sexually" Both impossible.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Anon1111
I don't think that is true that often. Any formerly LD people who became HD with a new partner - assuming nothing "wrong" with the original? Serious question - I'm very interested in input.



Anon1111 said:


> Here's the thing-- I can guarantee you that if the HD partner left the scene, the LD partner would suddenly find her libido when she started dating someone else.
> 
> Maybe a very, very small percentage would never date again. OK, for them, I accept that they are truly LD.
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Faithful Wife
> I don't think I said 'lazy' but maybe I implied it with my posts - or maybe selfish.
> 
> Clearly the best advice is for people to avoid LD/HD relationships - they don't make anyone happy. I wish there was more discussion of this when people started dating. Its really critically important.
> ...


We need to get this across to HD people just as well. It is not the fault of the LD that they end up in a mismatched relationship with an HD. Both partners relied on bad information (or whatever happened) and were not a good match and for whatever reason, moved forward anyway. 

It is not entirely the responsibility of the LD person to know themselves inside and out so well that they can tell someone, hey, I might not be that into sex after a couple of years. This is the HD person's responsibility, too.

Using my husband and myself as examples of highly sexual people, neither of us would have continued dating the other after the sexual activity got started, if either of us had even a whiff of the other not being on the same track as we were...no hard feelings, we just would have had to break up. We both feel this way. We both prioritize an excellent sexual relationship and are able to say so.

I know that this can't always be true for young, naive people...however, we should at least try having these conversations with young people and impressing upon them that people are different and sexual self-awareness is key to your own happiness in relationships.

But again...that message has to go to both sides...HD, LD and everyone in between...it isn't the other person's fault if you choose something you aren't happy with later, it is your own.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> Here's the thing-- I can guarantee you that if the HD partner left the scene, the LD partner would suddenly find her libido when she started dating someone else.
> 
> Maybe a very, very small percentage would never date again. OK, for them, I accept that they are truly LD.
> 
> ...


It is not all situational, but sometimes it is. It is not a given that every woman will find her libido again for a new man either...even if she does, it may not last more than a few months, if she's naturally LD and it was just that short lived increase in libido most women experience with a new partner.

Some women might totally move on with a new man and blossom. Sometimes this is what it takes because she and her husband simply had no real chemistry. This can happen - - for real...but it is not the one and for sure way things always happen.

This happens to men, too...they just don't come here and talk about it. But hang out on some men's forums and you'll hear about how all these men are bored with their wives, not attracted anymore, are constantly scheming how to get more porn and get to a strip club and not have to go home at night to "her"...and then eventually can't even get it up with her...this goes on for some time until they divorce and finally, with a new woman, ta da, everything works again.

It just happens.

Sometimes these things can't be faked.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I think the lesson taught to (mostly) young women of "don't do anything sexual you don't want to do) is terrible advice, and sets them up for problems in marriage later.
> 
> People do lots of things in their lives that they don't enjoy. There is nothing wrong with doing something sexual for your partner that you don't particularly enjoy IF it is part of a healthy, loving and mutual relationship.
> ...


This is kind of the same post we had earlier about no sex act being degrading in marriage. No offense, but why is it always the guys posting things like this? Men always complain that they don't get BJ's but I don't hear women complaining that they don't get enough oral sex. I think that should be a required part of marriage - husbands giving their wives oral sex? I mean how many women do actually get oral sex. That's a question. 

I think that it is ok for either a husband or wife to have boundaries even in the bedroom. And girls and boys should be taught that it is ok to have boundaries, everywhere, and that they have a right to expect that those boundaries will be respected. Yes, you have to compromise in marriage sometimes and even what is done in the bedroom can be negotiated. And sometimes when you have a job you have to do things you don't want to do. But home should be a safe place. If you constantly feel like you have to submit to things you are uncomfortable with that is not very safe.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

techmom said:


> The key to a happy marriage is finding out about your partner's preferences BEFORE MARRIAGE. This can't be emphasized enough. Too many threads where the man marries this virginal bride who hardly shows sexual interests and expects her to suddenly turn into a vixen after marriage.
> 
> Just doesn't work that way. Men who are HD should marry the "loose" HD women who put out, and who are into you. Waiting for after the lustful " beginning of the relationship" stage will help to determine if she will stay attracted to you for the long haul. Keeping yourself attractive as you did in the beginning will help, don't give that up just because the ring is on her finger.


You mean the "loose" HD man and the "loose" HD woman?


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening anonymous07
> I completely agree. It needs to be mutual, and it needs to be fair.
> 
> To me "fair" means doing what your partner wants, it doesn't mean doing things you don't enjoy. So if person A enjoys everything person B likes, but there are some things A wants but B doesn't enjoy, I think it is still fine. Each should still please the other, even though A happens to enjoy everything but B does not.
> ...


Do you feel like your partner uses sex as a weapon? Or do you feel like she is just not as interested in sex as you are?


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

UMP said:


> May I ask you a hypothetical question?
> If yes, please read on.
> 
> Let's say you were NOT married. Is there a man, perhaps a celebrity or such that you might be interested in giving a stand alone BJ?


Nope. I have a celebrity in mind but I would want to get pleasure out of it too.


----------



## Pooh Bear (Dec 28, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> A lot of this is definitions. This is a big difference between "don't enjoy" and "is repulsed by" and "is painful".
> 
> I guess I would put the line at "is as unpleasant as other things we need to do", laundry, washing dishes, work.
> ...


What's the difference between don't enjoy in the bedroom and cleaning out the litter box? :ezpi_wink1:


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Like a lot of things, there's degrees of "dislike" for something.

Hubby has something that he likes to do to me, I don't like it, get absolutely nothing out of it (physically anyway) and I don't understand his attraction to it, lol. However HE loves it, it brings him pleasure and that makes me happy, so I let him do it.

If he came to me and wanted anal sex for example, I absolutely would not do it. I find the thought of it FOR ME repulsive - no judgement for those who like it, different strokes for different folks and all that, but it's not for me. I don't believe that I should just do something that I find physically repulsive because my husband likes it. He agrees.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> I have sex with my husband, we both get a great deal out of it. That's what keeps me interested in it, I like orgasms. He does too.  I can give orgasms without worrying about getting one once in a while but I couldn't have a steady diet of that, too frustrating.
> 
> I would not even hint that my husband should give me orgasms with none for himself and act happy about it. I know he can't do it without a great deal of discomfort to himself. Too useless an exercise. We can both have fun so why deny either of us. If he wants to be unselfish, there are plenty of other ways. Sex is mutual for us not a sacrificial. I am lucky, my husband does not like unreciprocated sexual pleasure for himself. He explained that he has a hard time relaxing thinking about me being left frustrated.
> 
> ...


I am by no mean advocating that wives should give without reciprocation. I would not enjoy that .

I am advocating that if the husband gives oral. sensual massages, and truly is trying to please his wife then the wife should reciprocate. and that both need to try their best to meet each others need inside and outside of the bedroom.

example.

If I put forth good effort to know what type of romance my wife likes .....candles, roses peddles, words of love and desire. even thought these things don't come natural to me and sometimes make me feel awkward I still realize that its important to I try my best.

Shouldn't the wife try to figure out what turn ons are important to him. 

when there is an unbalance then resentment builds and I don't really feel like putting in the effort to be romantic. 

I would never leave a woman unsatisfied or be selfish if she would give oral or any sex act that left her wanting I would want to do whatever she wanted to satisfy her. 

I think it would be extremely wrong to leave your partner hanging. and frustrated sexually.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Pooh Bear said:


> This is kind of the same post we had earlier about no sex act being degrading in marriage. No offense, but why is it always the guys posting things like this? *Men always complain that they don't get BJ's but I don't hear women complaining that they don't get enough oral sex. I think that should be a required part of marriage - husbands giving their wives oral sex? I mean how many women do actually get oral sex. That's a question. *
> 
> I think that it is ok for either a husband or wife to have boundaries even in the bedroom. And girls and boys should be taught that it is ok to have boundaries, everywhere, and that they have a right to expect that those boundaries will be respected. Yes, you have to compromise in marriage sometimes and even what is done in the bedroom can be negotiated. And sometimes when you have a job you have to do things you don't want to do. But home should be a safe place. *If you constantly feel like you have to submit to things you are uncomfortable with that is not very safe*.


I've seen LOTS of posts by women complaining about lack of oral, actually. And I think they have a justifiable complaint in most cases.

How many women get oral? Don't know. Mine does, and she doesn't have to ask for it. I've always kind of felt that a dude refusing to do this was being dumb, all things being equal.

Your last point about being made to "submit" to something that makes you "uncomfortable" I think is a whole different animal from what some people are talking about. You can do something that you may or may not get a lot of "wow" factor from without being uncomfortable. Yeah, if something makes you legitimately uncomfortable, explain why to your spouse and don't do it. If it's something that you just don't get a lot of pizazz from but isn't something that makes you recoil in disgust, just doing it once in a while isn't a terrible thing.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Lila, we both have things we like to do or have done that the other doesn't really enjoy. Nothing that reaches a level or discomfort or real dislike, though. Nothing that will kill the mood, either - just mildly annoying, perhaps. However, we'll just put up with it as the other really enjoys it far more than we dislike it. Go with the flow - something much better is sure to follow. And we wouldn't tolerate anything we truly disliked, and wouldn't do anything that reaches that level if we know.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Young at Heart said:


> When my wife and I were recovering from a Sex Starved Marriage, and working with a sex therapist, I learned a valuable lesson. That lesson was that when my wife isn't in the mode for sex, but she offers me the gift of her body, out of love for me and wanting to feel my joy, I should accept her gift and not overthink things.
> 
> Sure, I would love to always have a wife who wants to jump my bones, but some nights she might be tired have things on her mind and yet she might want to feel connected to me. She might not be able to clear her mind of daily issues, but she still wants to hold me in her arms, feel me orgasm, know that she is a sexual being who can physically please her man, and snuggle with me after I have cum. She can want the emotionally closeness that comes after sex and I should not deny her that pleasure.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


I understand where you are coming from and I appreciate that. However, I just CAN'T do it, literally. If I sense my wife is not into it, I just stop. I would rather have good sex once a month than duty sex every day. That's just me.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> So in that sense, the LD spouse does not really love the HD spouse.


I don't think it's a question of love. My LD wife of 23 years would kill for me and does indeed LOVE me. It's not a question of love, it's a question of attraction. There is a BIG difference.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Pooh Bear
I have seen posts here from women who are unhappy that their husbands will not do sexual things for them, including oral sex, but I think you are right that this is less common (whether due to innate differences in sex drive, or socialization, I can't tell).

From what I've seen, regardless of the genders, the HD person is usually happy to do ANYTHING the LD person wants in bed. (and I think oral for both should be expected in marriage - my wife certainly gets it whenever she wants).

The level of dislike at which someone should not do sexual things is very tricky to define. I think there are clear boundaries at physical discomfort (BDSM aside). A woman who finds anal sex painful shouldn't feel pressured to do it. Someone who gets physically ill from oral sex should't do it. 

Mild dislike - that is much trickier. As a HD person, I automatically enjoy pretty much anything my wife like - so if she enjoys a (for me) awkward position, her pleasure / excitement will make it enjoyable for me even if it is slightly uncomfortable and not very stimulating.

The scenario that I don't understand. My wife doesn't like giving BJs. She does it once a year for my birthday - she knows its my favorite thing. When she does it, she doesn't act disgusted or uncomfortable. She does it to completion (she is really good) washes her mouth, then comes back and I give her an orgasm by whatever method she wants. 

In non-sexual things, she does all sorts of things for me. She loves me, wants me to be happy. But she feels that if she doesn't feel like doing something sexual at some particular time, she shouldn't. In contrast, on the rare occasions when I don't feel like sex, I never turn her down - I am happy to do it to make her happy. 




Pooh Bear said:


> This is kind of the same post we had earlier about no sex act being degrading in marriage. No offense, but why is it always the guys posting things like this? Men always complain that they don't get BJ's but I don't hear women complaining that they don't get enough oral sex. I think that should be a required part of marriage - husbands giving their wives oral sex? I mean how many women do actually get oral sex. That's a question.
> 
> I think that it is ok for either a husband or wife to have boundaries even in the bedroom. And girls and boys should be taught that it is ok to have boundaries, everywhere, and that they have a right to expect that those boundaries will be respected. Yes, you have to compromise in marriage sometimes and even what is done in the bedroom can be negotiated. And sometimes when you have a job you have to do things you don't want to do. But home should be a safe place. If you constantly feel like you have to submit to things you are uncomfortable with that is not very safe.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

richardsharpe,
So you get a blow job once a year, on your birthday. Well, that just blows!
Out of curiosity, when you were dating or first married was is always the same?


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Pooh Bear
She used to use sex as a weapon, but has gotten much better. I think she is trying. She is just very low drive - so sex is ever two weeks. Maybe a better term is no-drive. She enjoys sex, but i no way "needs" it, so it becomes something to do when there is NOTHING else to do - when in our lives is very rare.

In this thread though I was more talking about types of sexual activities, rather then frequency. Where should people draw the line in what they will and will not do in bed.

I'd say that instead of "don't do anything you don't like", rather, "do anything your partner likes that you don't strongly dislike". (assuming they do the same for you).






Pooh Bear said:


> Do you feel like your partner uses sex as a weapon? Or do you feel like she is just not as interested in sex as you are?


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Pooh Bear
> She used to use sex as a weapon, but has gotten much better. I think she is trying. She is just very low drive - so sex is ever two weeks. Maybe a better term is no-drive. She enjoys sex, but i no way "needs" it, so it becomes something to do when there is NOTHING else to do - when in our lives is very rare.
> 
> In this thread though I was more talking about types of sexual activities, rather then frequency. Where should people draw the line in what they will and will not do in bed.
> ...


What I did in your situation was essentially out last my wife. Since I hate the duty sex and will not beg, I wait until my wife "needs" or wants sex so that we're both all in.
The problem with my scenario is that some women could and have gone years and not "needed" it. 
For my wife, I think the longest dry time was 1 month in 23 years.


----------



## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

I don't particularly like being bitten on the shoulder, but as long as she doesn't draw blood it's not a big deal and I just grin and bear it. That's just how she sometimes expresses her passion, and in the grand scheme of things that's a good thing.

So as other folks have pointed out, there's a big difference between things that in the balance I'd rather not happen, and hard boundaries (her coming after me with a strap-on, for instance. I can put up with the stuff I'd rather not happen, even cheerfully, because I love my wife and I know she loves me.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

I was 17 when we first dated (I'm in my 50s now). I was way to young and inexperienced to be aware of the issues. We were in love, and I just assumed our sex life would get better.





UMP said:


> richardsharpe,
> So you get a blow job once a year, on your birthday. Well, that just blows!
> Out of curiosity, when you were dating or first married was is always the same?


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

UMP said:


> *I understand where you are coming from and I appreciate that. However, I just CAN'T do it, literally. If I sense my wife is not into it, I just stop. I would rather have good sex once a month than duty sex every day. That's just me*.





> *What I did in your situation was essentially out last my wife. Since I hate the duty sex and will not beg, I wait until my wife "needs" or wants sex so that we're both all in.
> The problem with my scenario is that some women could and have gone years and not "needed" it.
> For my wife, I think the longest dry time was 1 month in 23 years*.


 Reading these last 2 posts you did UMP.... Boy do you sound like my Husband !.. . (married 25 yrs).. I'd say the longest he's ever had to wait for me "feeling it & raring to go" is one week.. he knew I would be coming after him... 

I tend to side with many of the men on here... I feel it's "life giving" if we are not repulsed by something (of course).. to do all we can to please our spouse...listening to what they deeply desire... giving it a "good faith effort" (reading up on it if one has to).. ..this speaks so much..and could do wonders to a marriage even..

Now if you have a narcissistic selfish spouse who doesn't care about your needs, wants & desires & steps on them on a regular basis.. Of course you won't feel like giving back! and that makes all the sense in the world.. 

I'm speaking of one who has been a good Husband, there for us emotionally/ physically...it doesn't have to be on a regular basis even..depending on what it is ... but just so they know.. We care to make them happy...

This is a little unrelated or maybe it's not.. When I wanted my H to get more aggressive with me. Oh we had so many deep discussions over this...I wanted what I wanted, darn it.. Trying to stuff that caused me some turmoil.. but what got me through was... HIS ATTITUDE...

I can not express HOW MUCH it meant to me, even though the things I wanted was a struggle for him.. not his personality.. he never CUT ME OFF saying "NO "give it up woman, it will never happen, leave me alone !".. 

Had he come at my like that, It would have crushed my hopes & probably caused me resentment if I must be so honest.. so his being willing to TRY.. reading a book with me, listening to my ideas, my desires without his giving me    or putting up a wall.. 

That meant the world [email protected]#...so this is my perspective.. This is our life, we only get to live it once..if our own spouses do not care to fulfill us in what we crave, at least try.. put forth some effort.. it's gonna take it's bite on our spirit.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> I was 17 when we first dated (I'm in my 50s now). I was way to young and inexperienced to be aware of the issues. We were in love, and I just assumed our sex life would get better.


That is very similar to my situation.
I understand.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> I was 17 when we first dated (I'm in my 50s now). I was way to young and inexperienced to be aware of the issues. We were in love, and I just assumed our sex life would get better.


Pretty much, yup.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Pretty much, yup.


I'm starting to smell a theme...


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Yes.
Young, sexually inexperienced people getting into lifelong commitments is a problem. Unfortunately is is also strongly encouraged by stories / media - "I met the love of my life when we were in high school". "Oh, how romantic!". 

Maybe the one value of these eternal mutual-complaint sessions is that people not yet in this situation may take notice. Maybe parents will teach their children how to have good relationships.



Cletus said:


> I'm starting to smell a theme...


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Yes.
> Young, sexually inexperienced people getting into lifelong commitments is a problem. Unfortunately is is also strongly encouraged by stories / media - "I met the love of my life when we were in high school". "Oh, how romantic!".
> 
> Maybe the one value of these eternal mutual-complaint sessions is that people not yet in this situation may take notice. Maybe parents will teach their children how to have good relationships.


Ok. Maybe I am in the minority here, but sex can get better. In fact, it can get pretty damn good.
On the flip side to this, marrying someone you love and who loves you aside from sex is still very valuable.
I've had some very bad health problems that nearly killed me and my wife took care of me better than I could have ever hoped for. At least I got that going for me


----------



## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

UMP said:


> Ok. Maybe I am in the minority here, but sex can get better. In fact, it can get pretty damn good.
> On the flip side to this, marrying someone you love and who loves you aside from sex is still very valuable.
> I've had some very bad health problems that nearly killed me and my wife took care of me better than I could have ever hoped for. At least I got that going for me


I wouldn't trust a woman to take care of me if I got sick if she's not even interested in meeting my routine relationship needs.

I would say you got lucky.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Reading these last 2 posts you did UMP.... Boy do you sound like my Husband !.. . (married 25 yrs).. I'd say the longest he's ever had to wait for me "feeling it & raring to go" is one week.. he knew I would be coming after him...
> 
> I tend to side with many of the men on here... I feel it's "life giving" if we are not repulsed by something (of course).. to do all we can to please our spouse...listening to what they deeply desire... giving it a "good faith effort" (reading up on it if one has to).. ..this speaks so much..and could do wonders to a marriage even..
> 
> ...


Not exactly like your husband because if my wife asked for "aggressive" I would have broken every wall in our bedroom with her back side before she could have finished her sentence.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> I wouldn't trust a woman to take care of me if I got sick if she's not even interested in meeting my routine relationship needs.
> 
> I would say you got lucky.


She would have sex with me everyday, If I asked her for it. However, it would be like f%cking my car gas tank. Not much enthusiasm , although I do drive a BMW.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Yes.
> Young, sexually inexperienced people getting into lifelong commitments is a problem. Unfortunately is is also strongly encouraged by stories / media - *"I met the love of my life when we were in high school". "Oh, how romantic!"*.
> 
> Maybe the one value of these eternal mutual-complaint sessions is that people not yet in this situation may take notice. Maybe parents will teach their children how to have good relationships.


I disagree with you.. YOUNG LOVE Is not encouraged at all anymore.. it's all about test driving and being sexually experienced and NOT getting emotionally attached.. because after all.. college is ahead of you & relationships can drag you down. This is what I get from the vast majority of people.. they pound to NOT get married till late 20's / early 30's or even better yet.. not at all! 

I am very thankful for our love story.. it does work out sometimes ...It's always an "OUCH" around here when others hone in on the young love stories ... as if such marriages don't have a shot in hell of working....and we're all a fairy taled joke or something...

.... We have 5 sons... I have sex books all over my house, my sons know I am on this forum .. they think it's pretty cool.. we are very very OPEN about sexuality in our house...

After reading all the painful stories of low drivers with High drivers...you better believe I care whom they marry...and about her sex drive...if these girls are WILD about our sons...I feel they would curse the day they was born, basically, if they had to deal with some of what I read here.. 

Yet... we are still more on the conservative side.. we don't think "hooking up" is the way to start life in high school or college... being committed to someone is important before one goes there. .

Our 2nd son & his GF has been together since age 14.... 3 yrs now.. I'm not going to go into what I say to him about making sure she is HOT for him & can orgasm.. but ya know.. those things are vital...as far as I am concerned for his future happiness as chances are -- he is just like his dad...and would not be fulfilled if she couldn't..

I can't put down "young love".. it's not always a disaster.. I am realistic enough to know that it generally doesn't work out & many times SHOULD'T... better fish in the sea..

3rd son adored his 1st love, I told him early on...she wasn't the one...I observe things closely, their interactions, her response to him..... I could tell.. even though he wanted her to be.. and was devastated when she broke up (so happy she did)...he told me she wasn't affectionate.. as I asked.. I told him ...to make sure his next GF is highly affectionate and touchy feely...So important...as he is this sort of guy..

I think he might have met his match with his GF now ...affection in overload.. both of them... Have to keep my eyes on these 2...reminds me of my H & myself very much.. she has a personality SO MUCH like mine, she puts a rise in him.....And he is ALL his dad.. It's very refreshing to see.. 

Our Teens DO need guidance wading through these things... understanding/ recognizing red flags..and using good judgement for their futures.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Yes.
> Young, sexually inexperienced people getting into lifelong commitments is a problem. Unfortunately is is also strongly encouraged by stories / media - "I met the love of my life when we were in high school". "Oh, how romantic!".
> 
> Maybe the one value of these eternal mutual-complaint sessions is that people not yet in this situation may take notice. Maybe parents will teach their children how to have good relationships.


Maybe that was something encouraged before, but I definitely don't see it myself now. I'm younger(mid-twenties) and for myself and everyone I know, we were never encouraged to find and marry someone from high school(high school marriages tend to end in divorce). We were all encouraged to go to college and meet someone in college. I did just that, married my husband after meeting him in college. It doesn't always make things "better" though. No matter what there can be problems.


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I disagree with you.. YOUNG LOVE Is not encouraged at all anymore.. it's all about test driving and being sexually experienced and NOT getting emotionally attached.. because after all.. college is ahead of you & relationships can drag you down. This is what I get from the vast majority of people.. they pound to NOT get married till late 20's / early 30's or even better yet.. not at all!
> 
> I am very thankful for our love story.. it does work out sometimes ...It's always an "OUCH" around here when others hone in on the young love stories ... as if such marriages don't have a shot in hell of working....and we're all a fairy taled joke or something...
> 
> ...


You HAVE to watch this movie: "The To Do List"
It's about a girl in high school wanting to lose her virginity before college. She writes up a "to do list" with everything her and her friends can think of. hand job, dry hump, getting eaten out, etc. You will LAUGH YOUR ASS OFF !!

Trailer link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKGigK17eSs


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

UMP said:


> *You HAVE to watch this movie: "The To Do List"
> It's about a girl in high school wanting to lose her virginity before college. She writes up a "to do list" with everything her and her friends can think of. hand job, dry hump, getting eaten out, etc. You will LAUGH YOUR ASS OFF !!*
> 
> Trailer link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKGigK17eSs


I clicked on the link...

Honestly UMP ...I think this movie would very much annoy me making fun of a girl who was a virgin.. and seeing her randomly throwing that away on some hot blonde dude who gets all the chicks... and feeling proud of herself [email protected]#

That story line is the epitome of everything I felt was wrong in high school and a path I *didn't* want to take.. (and I would still feel the same today)...

I know it's a comedy...but I wonder, what is the underlying message of this movie.. if there is one?


----------



## UMP (Dec 23, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I clicked on the link...
> 
> Honestly UMP ...I think this movie would very much annoy me making fun of a girl who was a virgin.. and seeing her randomly throwing that away on some hot blonde dude who gets all the chicks... and feeling proud of herself [email protected]#
> 
> ...


I can't explain. It's just plain funny. You would have to see it yourself to understand.


----------



## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evenign all
it is a difficult balance. I'm not a fan of just hooking-up - OK if people want to, but it doesn't sound like much fun. OTOH if you are deeply committed to someone before you become intimate, it can be very difficult to leave "just because the sex is bad".


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Lila said:


> I have a genuine question with regards to the bolded part of your post. How do you react when your husband does this thing that you don't particularly like? Do you fake enjoyment for his benefit or do you just kind of go with the flow?
> 
> I ask because my husband and I got into a tangent discussion regarding the thread topic where we debated how one should react to doing something they are not particularly excited about doing. I'm curious what others do in such situations.


I guess you could say I kinda go with the flow, lol. I don't fake excitement, and the first time I just lay there...but now I just go with it. I love my husband very much, he's so good to me and absolutely respects my boundaries. 

While I don't like this thing, it causes me no harm, and he loves it. I also know that if I said I didn't want him to do it anymore it wouldn't be an issue.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> People do lots of things in their lives that they don't enjoy. There is nothing wrong with doing something sexual for your partner that you don't particularly enjoy IF it is part of a healthy, loving and mutual relationship.


Fully agree with this.

It's not about the act, it's about your partner, and there's nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with giving something and getting nothing in return at that particular moment. In a healthy relationship, it will be returned at a later date.

That said, if you are diametrically opposed to doing a, b or c, then that's another story.

If you are opposed to doing something for your partner because it makes you feel used, then that's on you and should be addressed, imo. (This is said providing you are not actually being used). If your partner is always asking for a, b or c and does not return the favor later on, okay, you're being used.

Quick example, my wife just won't do stand alone things. She employs the "feeling used" excuse. I have literally asked her once for this, the answer was no. Never asked for it again. Have discussed it with her (as a thing I would enjoy), and it doesn't happen. She knows full well I am willing to provide her the same. Not in return, but because I want to. I get pleasure out of her pleasure. This alone should show that I am not "using" her as my own personal BJ slave. Yet she can't make the distinction between standalone sex acts with her husband and being used, as it were. It doesn't matter how respectful and loving I am, nor that I am always willing to please her, simply doing a sex act for my own pleasure at that moment = being used, in her mind. I could go down on her every day, and she could give me a BJ once a year. That one time, she will feel used.

If you are going to your partner and giving them a, b or c of your own volition, and they are doing the same at a later date, there's no "using" going on.

Bottom line, you should WANT to please your partner and vice versa. It's also healthy and normal to sit back and relax and enjoy whatever it is without having to reciprocate at that exact moment.

The issues arise when one partner feels like they're being used and/or the receiving partner feels like they need to reciprocate immediately. There's nothing wrong or unhealthy about wanting to please your partner and alternately enjoying being on the receiving end, yet so many people can't wrap their minds around either/or.


----------



## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Alexm I think it's a relationship issue not sex or bj. She feels used. So it's about her feelings, not reality. Maybe dispelling these feelings. Can I offer ideas for you to think about? 

Is it possible that your wife feels that your relationship is a fair and balanced as it is? Not just sex but all aspects of your marriage. She may feel that your request for an unreciprocated sexual act may mean you think she is not holding up her end of the relationship. Can you make sure she knows that your request has nothing to do with appreciation for what she gives, if you really feel that way. 

With regards to your offer of giving her whatever she wants sexually - if she is not as interested in sex as you, she naturally would not take you up on that offer. It may not seem like a fair exchange in her eyes because she is not asking you for a gift. It does not address her needs but comes back to a gift you want. Does that make sense? 

The question is - what does she need that would inspire her to give you what you need. It's not sex in return, I think. Being nice and appreciative in response to her giving you a bj does not seem to be enough of an exchange. What do you think it could is?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

This entire thread - is - in a way - about you feeling that you 'give more' in the marriage than A2 does. 

It's why you have stated: you will leave if it doesn't get better





alexm said:


> Fully agree with this.
> 
> It's not about the act, it's about your partner, and there's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


----------

