# My resentment



## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Actually, I'm not totally sure what my resentment is - I'm not sure if I resent the fact that because I am a woman and have breasts and a vagina it has meant that it automatically makes me food, meat to be drooled over...OR...if I resent the fact that men are able to walk free of being objectified in the same way.

I've spent most of my life hiding behind clothes that covered my breasts, clothes that weren't too tight so as to not show my femaleness - to try and lessen the effect of being oggled at. It's kind of worked but not as much as I would have liked.

There have been times when I would have loved nothing more than to just throw on a singlet/t-shirt and shorts, no bra no knickers and just go about being in the world without worrying about being someones momentary sexual fantasy. Men can do that.

There have also been times when I've just wanted to wear somethng that made me feel like a woman....feminine, soft and sexy (to myself) and not end up feeling like I'm on display.

Over the years, I have been thrust against walls, thrown down on beds, cornered, had my breasts, arse and groin groped by men I don't know and sometimes men I do know. Why? For no other reason than I have breasts and a vagina - there for the taking.

I was brought up knowing that my body was much more than a sexual vessel....it's my body...a thing of beauty, something to be cared for and respected. I was brought up to believe my sexuality is sacred - something to be shared intimately with another person of my choosing. 

But that's not the world we live in is it? We live in a world where females are sexually objectified from a very early age and it doesn't matter how careful parents are to instill a belief of self worth and self love in their daughters - the minute they walk out the door the rules change.

It really IS a man's world.


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## madimoff (Feb 17, 2010)

The saddest thing about this post is that there will be some reading it and thinking - and considering replying - and stumbling over what to say, like me - but the truth is that (I think) you have expressed it well and you are right full stop
However we must all bear some of the responsibility for allowing this sexual objectification to have grown the way it has: we've not complained about TV programmes, bought into certain brands, joined in the laughter about Ms Anderson's slo-mo orange swimsuit, etc etc
To whatever extent, we have the world we've all created


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

madimoff said:


> However we must all bear some of the responsibility for allowing this sexual objectification to have grown the way it has: we've not complained about TV programmes, bought into certain brands, joined in the laughter about Ms Anderson's slo-mo orange swimsuit, etc etc
> To whatever extent, we have the world we've all created


We do have to take responsibility, each and every one of us....I totally agree! For many years I didn't do anything to stand up for something I have always felt so strongly about...and yes, I even bought into it.

Geeze Louise, 8 years ago I worked at a web design company designing web pages for porn companies - what the hell was I thinking!!! The truth is....I wasn't thinking - the job earned me good money...which made it easier to put aside my principles.

However....I'm an advocate of "once you know better - you do better". So a lot more thought goes in to what I support and what I allow in to my life these days. I may not change the world with my one little voice...but I have changed my world to the extent that I can go to sleep at night knowing that I have made a small difference in the bigger picture - which is better than not making a difference at all.

I can accept the knowledge that women will always be sexually objectified - I don't like it at all, but it appears that through no fault of his own man is what man is. Add to that, the hoards of misguided woman who believe that equality comes through the power-of-the-p*ssy and self-objectify to feel empowered....and I can see no end in sight for me ever having the freedom I would so dearly love.

That's life I guess.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I've never felt this way. I've done everything I've ever wanted even in this "mans world". Nobody has ever groped me unless I wanted them too. I've never felt sexually objectified and I'm an attractive woman. 

Personally I think your career choice has put you in these situations which are not normal.

No offense just my observations.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

The objectification starts at younger and younger ages. I mean seriously, who the hell thought it would be a good idea to market g-strings for 12 year olds, or miniskirts, or shorty shorts. 

I am a male, I enjoy the female form. Yes, I admit that I am a guy who likes to watch a girl walk away. I am a visual creature. But the girl who wears skin tight jeans, tight low cut t-shirt and a pushup bra under silicon enhanced boobs is wanting to be looked at. 

I have been in the city, having a coffee, sitting and watching the world go by, appreciating pretty girls and marvelling at the wacky styles of some. I watch people interact, often play a game with my wife of "What's their story?" More and more often these days, the "****ty" dress styles are being paraded around by girls who aren't old enough to be legal, I am talking full face war-paint (make-up) and the teeniest scraps of clothes. I am quite often mortified by what I see, and it is mainly the fault of the parents for allowing them to come out dressed like that and a large portion of blame to idiotic fashionista's!

I am not saying that all women want that "construction worker" type over the top "appreciation" nor am I saying that men are all decent and respectful. We simply love to window shop, just as you girls like to look at the shoes in the shop window(sic). I also know that "ladies" can be just as over the top and worse than the construction workers (remembering back to my construction worker days and working in bars part time, the Hen's nights always got further out of control than the Bachelor parties!)

I have also had major arguments with my sister over this very same issue. We must face this world with it's reality in mind, and be prepared for it. A girl dressed as a "****" will garner plenty of male attention, not all of it appreciated, but that is the by product of her choice of clothes. Similarly, a man should never have to fight, but bet your ass her son is in martial arts classes to learn how to defend himself. 

The world is not equal, and therefore cannot be considered fair when trying to look at it through eyes that want equality. It is the diversity between us and the preparedness that we have to face that diversity that makes life interesting.

You don't want to be ogled, dress down, you may still be stunningly beautiful, but you will attract less attention. Sweat pants and a sloppy joe may well have you looking dowdy, but it will send sparks thru some man's heart regardless, so in reality it is a win-win- no-win situation, it is all in your own perspective. How you see yourself is the most important thing, but remember, the rest of the world exists as well and we all live in it.

Imagine old mate cave man, "wish I could go outta the cave to take a dump without the sabre tooth cat trying to eat me!!!!! but hell I better take the spear just in case!" :rofl:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

surfergirl said:


> But that's not the world we live in is it?


I wonder if it is geographical. I have not been touched or openly oogled by a man in years upon years. Certainly no one has EVER pawed at me. 



> We live in a world where females are sexually objectified from a very early age and it doesn't matter how careful parents are to instill a belief of self worth and self love in their daughters - the minute they walk out the door the rules change.


The right rules should not have been to hide your femininity but to cultivate an f you and the horse you rode in on toward those low class men who lack refinement, taste and any character whatsoever. Not all, not even most men are like that. The ******** and dork boys are.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

I am kind of a ******* dork...... but I am not the groper type. so where does that leave me?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I love women. If I were a woman I'd be the biggest lipstick lesbian fem top out there. I would hit on/flirt with them all - young old thin heavy blond brunette redhead bald.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Mephisto said:


> I am kind of a ******* dork...... but I am not the groper type. so where does that leave me?


Woa apologies to all ******** and dorks. There is a SUBSET of these people who are also aholes. I did not mean to slam necks and dorks.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

surfergirl said:


> Actually, I'm not totally sure what my resentment is -


That right there, is what I unfortunately find to often be the case.

And it may not be that she doesn't know what it is, she just might. What becomes the important part of the equation is that she doesn't know how, or want to work through, and let go of it.

And that ... incurs a cost. One that effects her, and those she enters a relationship with.

I find it sad. For everyone involved. Even the ******** and dorks.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

My advice would be to do something about it. Work and support groups that fight against the very thing you are talking about. This very well is a man's world but only because women allow it. We can't forget that mothers help hold their daughters down while a man cuts off her clitoris to make her ready for marriage or that mothers agree to sell their daughters to the slave trade in order to purchase cows for their farm or even that mothers tell their daughters they are fat and should diet.

I did feel like you at one time. My poetry in my teens was almost wholly based upon my frustration of being viewed as a pair of t!ts & a$$. This idea that the depth of men began and ended with their eyes and d!ck disturbed me. I got involved with poetry readings and kept spewing this anti-man stuff. Then I started to get involved in org's that fought against the abuse and objectification of women.

Fast forward to today and I'm still involved on some level or another. Still stay aware of all the horrible atrocities done to women based solely on their sex. I recognize it's a slippery slope because men do feel wrongly accused of being labeled as bad simply because of their gender as well. I've found that just as there are good and bad women out there, there are good and bad men. It's unfair to believe that all men are disgusting, cruel and groping rapists. It's not the case. Yes, they enjoy the female form but this doesn't mean they are incapable of loving a woman for more than her form. In fact, I believe most men are capable of this.

Don't allow others to define you. Define yourself and enjoy your physical form, express yourself. I actually love clothes & accessories. I don't care if others find them sexy/dowdy or not, I like expressing who and what I am/feel through fashion. It's like the chance for walking art. Some will like what I look like while others will think I'm a red neck dork (haha). Give yourself the gift of being yourself and you will feel less resentful and instead will feel empowered.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

When I was a raging feminist, I was so angry that men enjoyed certain freedoms that women do not.
Yes, being objectified is awful and scary at times. Yet I love to have men appreciating my figure and my smile. Everybody likes to admire and be admired. I have accepted that men are visual. Unwanted touching is abusive, but you truly cannot control where someone looks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Trenton said:


> I don't care if others find them sexy/dowdy or not, I like expressing who and what I am/feel through fashion. It's like the chance for walking art. Some will like what I look like while others will think I'm a red neck dork (haha).


JEEZ ... I liked the dress! I liked it!

I've always had a 'thing' about violence, and specifically sexual violence against women or children. I don't like it, and I don't have much use for those who perpetrate it. I do believe that the scope of that issue can be difficult for some to get their head around unless they have looked into some very dark corners of the human experience where upstanding folk just don't look ... and can't possibly know how bad it is or how deep it runs.

I write occasionally. I have done research on war crimes, serial killers, and predators. 

That said, there comes a point where we have to accept some self-evident truths about our sexuality. Specifically ... we are sexual. I very much appreciate the female form. There are few things that can hold a man's rapt attention more steadfastly. But ... that certainly doesn't mean that I feel compelled or entitled to paw at or grope at a woman.

I hope you work through your stuff, surfergirl ... sincerely.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's very disheartening at times to try building a life with someone who simply won't buy it.

It corrodes the very soul of the achiever within you.

It's because of the things that were done in the past by some other person - but you are the one who stands in the line of fire/doubt.

What does this mean? What does that mean? AHA - let's throw out the 98-99% of the life we have together and focus on the moment of weakness and conclude that's the REAL person I'm with - due to a faint echo from the past.

Not sure how you "really" get past that.



Deejo said:


> JEEZ ... I liked the dress! I liked it!
> 
> I've always had a 'thing' about violence, and specifically sexual violence against women or children. I don't like it, and I don't have much use for those who perpetrate it. I do believe that the scope of that issue can be difficult for some to get their head around unless they have looked into some very dark corners of the human experience where upstanding folk just don't look ... and can't possibly know how bad it is or how deep it runs.
> 
> ...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> JEEZ ... I liked the dress! I liked it!
> 
> I've always had a 'thing' about violence, and specifically sexual violence against women or children. I don't like it, and I don't have much use for those who perpetrate it. I do believe that the scope of that issue can be difficult for some to get their head around unless they have looked into some very dark corners of the human experience where upstanding folk just don't look ... and can't possibly know how bad it is or how deep it runs.
> 
> ...


You're funny!--I love that dress, it has pockets! 

I agree with you anyway in regards to a woman resenting all men and society which is what I was trying to say. It's unfair and it's not true, it's far more complex. We are responsible for ourselves.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Sonny said:


> I don't mean to be insensitive, but men have been objectifying women since the beginning of time and it will never ever change. I think the best women can do is not tolerate b.s and learn to defend themselves, yes even with lethal force if necessary.


If we're honest, women have been using it to their advantage since the beginning of time as well.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Trenton said:


> If we're honest, women have been using it to their advantage since the beginning of time as well.


You're not supposed to notice that part.


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## anon_4_now (Mar 23, 2011)

Trenton said:


> If we're honest, women have been using it to their advantage since the beginning of time as well.


:lol::iagree::lol::iagree::lol::iagree::lol::iagree::lol::iagree:


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> I've never felt this way. I've done everything I've ever wanted even in this "mans world". Nobody has ever groped me unless I wanted them too. I've never felt sexually objectified and I'm an attractive woman.
> 
> Personally I think your career choice has put you in these situations which are not normal.
> 
> No offense just my observations.


That is victim blaming... if you weren't there, if you didn't wear that... if if if. however it shouldn't matter where you are, or what you are or are not wearing, Men should treat women with respect.

I consider you very very lucky to not have had these things happen to you, because the stats are that so many girls, and women do.

In no way do i hold myself responsible for the actions any man who may have harmed me. I also don't believe all men are like that.



Trenton said:


> If we're honest, women have been using it to their advantage since the beginning of time as well.


True because they are taught that it is a powerful tool. They are taught that it is their most valuable asset sadly.

Sometimes when someone is being nice to me or helping me or bending over backwards for me, I do wonder now is he doing this because he finds me attractive, would he be helping me otherwise? Sad but true. I do know the younger and more attractive you are stats show the easier you have it in life.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> I've never felt this way. I've done everything I've ever wanted even in this "mans world". Nobody has ever groped me unless I wanted them too. I've never felt sexually objectified and I'm an attractive woman.
> 
> Personally I think your career choice has put you in these situations which are not normal.
> 
> No offense just my observations.


Thank you for your observations. I'm pleased to hear you've never experienced any unwanted sexual attention - it's rare to be as lucky as you (be thankful for that).

Your comment about my career choice wasn't offensive, although I do find it a tad disturbing - surely I should be able to work in the job of my choice and not feel like I am walking into "these kind of situations".

Just for interest sake....my work of choice over the years is within an office environment - Receptionist, Office Manager, PA. My career choice however has been that of parent/mother.

I don't know....perhaps I should have chosen pole dancing as my second role and just expected the inevitable man handling?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Men have not been objectifying women forever. Seeing women as sexual beings isn't objectifying them; seeing them as nothing BUT sexual objects IS. And it is really unfair to say that "men" have been doing it all along, because it is only some men. It is also unfair to say that women have been using their sexuality to their advantage all along, also, because, again, it is only "some" women. 

I try not to mind the men objectifying women and the women using that to their advantage, since they tend to end up together and then wonder why they are unhappy. The men are unhappy b/c they discover the object has feelings, needs, expectations--damn! The women end up unhappy b/c their needs, feelings, and expectations are ignored; damn! Well, at least in my fantasy world, where everyone gets what they deserve, this is how it works out


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Mephisto said:


> I am a male, I enjoy the female form. Yes, I admit that I am a guy who likes to watch a girl walk away. I am a visual creature. But the girl who wears skin tight jeans, tight low cut t-shirt and a pushup bra under silicon enhanced boobs is wanting to be looked at.


It's true, some woman go out of their way to attract sexual attention from anyone and I guess it's not a problem because it's what they want...so everyone is happy. 



Mephisto said:


> I have been in the city, having a coffee, sitting and watching the world go by, appreciating pretty girls and marvelling at the wacky styles of some. I watch people interact, often play a game with my wife of "What's their story?" More and more often these days, the "****ty" dress styles are being paraded around by girls who aren't old enough to be legal, I am talking full face war-paint (make-up) and the teeniest scraps of clothes. I am quite often mortified by what I see, and it is mainly the fault of the parents for allowing them to come out dressed like that and a large portion of blame to idiotic fashionista's!


I play the "What's their story" game too...often wonder how close I get. Teen-girls dressed as crack wh*res....totally don't get the parents who are following this trend. 



Mephisto said:


> I also know that "ladies" can be just as over the top and worse than the construction workers (remembering back to my construction worker days and working in bars part time, the Hen's nights always got further out of control than the Bachelor parties!)


Oh yes indeedy! We woman can certainly be a wild bunch when travelling in hen party packs - it's when we let our "inner boys" out for the night. Fun times!



Mephisto said:


> We must face this world with it's reality in mind, and be prepared for it.


True. Sometimes reality sucks bananas though. 




Mephisto said:


> You don't want to be ogled, dress down, you may still be stunningly beautiful, but you will attract less attention. Sweat pants and a sloppy joe may well have you looking dowdy, but it will send sparks thru some man's heart regardless, so in reality it is a win-win- no-win situation, it is all in your own perspective. How you see yourself is the most important thing, but remember, the rest of the world exists as well and we all live in it.


Dressing down I can do...but leaving the house wearing sweat pants and a sloppy joe??? C'mon....pleaaase...there are some things a woman should never feel she has to do - no matter what her quest!! 

I guess my thing is...why should I or any woman feel like we have to dress dowdy just so as not to attract attention. I know, I know....it's just the way it is.....




Mephisto said:


> Imagine old mate cave man, "wish I could go outta the cave to take a dump without the sabre tooth cat trying to eat me!!!!! but hell I better take the spear just in case!" :rofl:


I never leave home without packing my steely ball-shrinking stare loaded and ready to fire...and for the sabre tooth cat that gets past that...then they get to meet my friends painful knee jerk and elbow to the jaw


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I used to think I was born for a different age, but looking at your post reminds me that this is mostly just a personal fantasy, since this may be the most enlightened age, in many respects, but it is still so common.

I still think that at least to a small degree, this could be geographical in the most blatant cases. I grew up in a place where my mother, a single mother at the time, was paid less than her male counterparts. When she began to fight the system, her boss considered himself obligated to try to make her "earn the extra money". This was common in this part of the country.

Now, I live in a different part of the country. Most companies, civic organizatons, and schools preach the mantra of mutual respect. In fact, my company, which has about 120,000 employees, requires and incredible amount of training. At my level, periodic investigations of my unit are performed. 

In the end, though, it still happens. I witnessed my college age daughter being intimidated at her college last semester by two older men, construction workers who diverted themselves by trying to flirt during breaks. I was meeting her for lunch, where she was working as a greeter. Believe me, I fought against guys with knives as a teenager, so two middle age donut waisted guys were laughable. Both of them were literally crying by the time they sulked away.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Trenton said:


> If we're honest, women have been using it to their advantage since the beginning of time as well.


I love this! It's true. I've always enjoyed being interviewed by men. I wear a pencil skirt, high heels and my smile that turns heads. I have them laughing and even flirting-AND I ALWAYS GET HIRED. It doesn't bother me in the least!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Mrs.G said:


> I love this! It's true. I've always enjoyed being interviewed by men. I wear a pencil skirt, high heels and my smile that turns heads. I have them laughing and even flirting-AND I ALWAYS GET HIRED. It doesn't bother me in the least!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wear conservative pin stripe pants and low heals. And I get hired every time. Oh wait. That is because I am demonstrably really good at my job with references that kick major butt. 

Crazy talk, I know.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Mrs.G said:


> I love this! It's true. I've always enjoyed being interviewed by men. I wear a pencil skirt, high heels and my smile that turns heads. I have them laughing and even flirting-AND I ALWAYS GET HIRED. It doesn't bother me in the least!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My boss is an extremely attractive woman. She however has the social skills of a penguin.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Mom6547 said:


> I wear conservative pin stripe pants and low heals. And I get hired every time. Oh wait. That is because I am demonstrably really good at my job with references that kick major butt.
> 
> Crazy talk, I know.


I love it. I would not want to be hired on how sexy I am. 

I once got offered a job because the business owner liked my boobs. He kept offering to hire me, saying the guys would love me, whenever I came across him. Ick.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I love it. I would not want to be hired on how sexy I am.


Exactly! I would never work for some schmuck who wanted to hire me for my looks.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Would you demand a speeding ticket from a male police officer who did not think chivalry was dead? -or- do you just never speed?

I speed upon occasion and have been pulled over. I smile and allow him to let me off every time.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Only plain,homely or fat ulgy girls and women complain about not being objectified.or asexually people

most get a charge or ego boost out of it.

I always get a kick out of someone dressing provoctivaly and then being pissed when someone notices and comments .

is it because the wrong person responded and they didn't want the attention from the person who did respond?


you can't have it both ways 

Oh the other thing I've noticied is its ok for a female to comment about brad pitt or some other hot guy but usually when a guy dose the same he get bashed for objectifying women 



another double standard!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

surfergirl said:


> Over the years, I have been thrust against walls, thrown down on beds, cornered, had my breasts, arse and groin groped by men I don't know and sometimes men I do know. Why? For no other reason than I have breasts and a vagina - there for the taking.


By men you don't know!! Yikes - I really have to wonder what "setting" you was allowing yourself to be put into -if these things happened. 


I look at this so very different than the majority of women here. For everyone who is pleasingly beautiful to the eyes & is RESENTFUL for this "gift" because men are being their visual selves, I seriously WISH you all could walk in the shoes of a homely women -who was NOT blessed with such beauty - to feel and live her plight in life, her struggles, so different from your own, but NOT easier. 

To complain that you have to "dress down" some because of your beauty. To complain you always get hired for your looks. Geeeezzze women. 

Try being a "Hunchback of notre dame" or a Shrek's Fiona in this life and see how far you get in employemnt, these types will not be found in porn, they do not even have an opportunity to be Objectified on screen. THE BEAUTYS have MANY MANY MANY MANY more choices in this life- even to move on where they will be respected, especially with EMPLOYMENT as you all have just demonstrated with your posts here. If this is all the troubles you have in life, da** -count your blessings. 

One thing we all know, we are NOT going to change MEN, they have been this way from the beginning of time, take it up with GOD. They will continue to oogle the the shapely hot women walking past them, they will continue to hire the receptionist with the pleasing personality & the nice boobs, and they will continue to lure women into bed. The more revealingly beautiful she is, the more she will be pursued. Count on it! What can we do but teach our daughters this to avoid the mistakes we have made & so many women before us. 

I will teach my daughter all of these things plus one more - never to take on the attitude she is a "VICTIM" unless she truly was.  Men luring, Men asking, MEN wanting, MEN pursuing, These do not = force. She is not a silent lamb, I will teach her to be Bold, feircely saying NO when it is against her values & what she truly wants from a man. If she steps over that, I will be the 1st to remind her of her role. 

My dear daughter is only 7, I can already tell she is NOT as bold as me, not as aggresive in nature (more like her dad), I am hoping this will not bite her in the A** someday. I am just not into blaming anyone else for what we choose in life. All women have choices, they may become murkier if we put ourselves in shaky immoral atmopheres though, so again, she needs to learn this as well. It is a BIG BAD WORLD out there. Wisdom & Responsibility is essential and even MORE so for those preyed upon. 

Speaking of MEN & their role In looking & pursuing, the only way to STOP this - would be to pluck out their eyes or KILL them all off so their testosterone has no chance of influencing their minds -which leads to much LUSTY and aggressive behavior. 

So what can *she* DO amidsts the horny dogs preying in society looking to uplift every females skirt : She can be careful HOW she dresses as to not entice erotically, be careful who she hangs around with (our friends are a reflection of who we are), where she goes (bars, wild parties, dont be shocked when this type preys upon you), dont accept that job if you feel you are being hired for your boobs, move along, if you are pretty, another will hire you without being so obvious. 

Women need to be empowered to 1st understand men, their sexual weaknesss and to stand up for themselves (strongly , unashamedly), their moral convictions/values, be able to say NO to sex, NO to naked Photo shoots, etc and never fall for the flirting BS that spews from their mouths. 

I like this quote


> "There are times in my life when I have been medicine for some while poison for others. I used to think I was a victim of my story until I realized the truth that I am the creator of my story. I choose what type of person I will be and what type of impact I will leave on others. I will never choose the destructive path of self and outward victimization again"


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> By men you don't know!! Yikes - I really have to wonder what "setting" you was allowing yourself to be put into -if these things happened.
> 
> 
> I look at this so very different than the majority of women here. For everyone who is pleasingly beautiful to the eyes & is RESENTFUL for this "gift" because men are being their visual selves, I seriously WISH you all could walk in the shoes of a homely women -who was NOT blessed with such beauty - to feel and live her plight in life, her struggles, so different from your own, but NOT easier.
> ...


very good post!!


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I wear conservative pin stripe pants and low heals. And I get hired every time. Oh wait. That is because I am demonstrably really good at my job with references that kick major butt.
> 
> Crazy talk, I know.


:lol::lol::lol: The only thing that's crazy is your undeserved swipe at me. I never once said that I ONLY rely on my looks to secure positions. I do, however, use my appearance to my advantage. I'm smart enough to play every card that I can. 

My resume and qualifications are what gets me through the door. My beauty is the icing on the cake. 

Your bitterness speaks volumes about what you probably look like.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> Only plain,homely or fat ulgy girls and women complain about not being objectified.or asexually people
> 
> most get a charge or ego boost out of it.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Have a look at my last response to a sadly bitter person. :rofl:


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Would you demand a speeding ticket from a male police officer who did not think chivalry was dead? -or- do you just never speed?
> 
> I speed upon occasion and have been pulled over. I smile and allow him to let me off every time.


AMEN!! Nothing wrong with this at all. Use that megawatt smile, my sexy red haired Trenton! :smthumbup:


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Would you demand a speeding ticket from a male police officer who did not think chivalry was dead? -or- do you just never speed?


I am not in the habit of arguing with police officers. Strikes me as a pretty bad policy. But I would not suck up to get out of a ticket.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Mrs.G said:


> :lol::lol::lol: The only thing that's crazy is your undeserved swipe at me.
> When did I swipe at you? Are we a little defensive today?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Let me put that another way. If this is the boss, and he makes hiring decisions based on female sexual attractiveness, what OTHER business decisions does he make that are based on things other than those which impact the matter at hand?

I hired a woman once at a software job. She was horse ugly. She was smart, tenacious and just really, really good at her job. She wound up saving the company boat loads of money by finding software errors early and cheap. THAT is a hiring decision. Some dope who is looking at pencil skirts? Never would have hired her. I don't want to work for that guy.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I am not in the habit of arguing with police officers. Strikes me as a pretty bad policy. But I would not suck up to get out of a ticket.


Just because you don't agree with something, it doesn't mean that it's wrong. Trenton did not say that she argues. She said that she smiles and then does not get the ticket.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

*Sarcasm*



Mom6547 said:


> Mrs.G said:
> 
> 
> > :lol::lol::lol: The only thing that's crazy is your undeserved swipe at me.
> ...


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

*Well Aware.*



Mom6547 said:


> Let me put that another way. If this is the boss, and he makes hiring decisions based on female sexual attractiveness, what OTHER business decisions does he make that are based on things other than those which impact the matter at hand?
> 
> I hired a woman once at a software job. She was horse ugly. She was smart, tenacious and just really, really good at her job. She wound up saving the company boat loads of money by finding software errors early and cheap. THAT is a hiring decision. Some dope who is looking at pencil skirts? Never would have hired her. I don't want to work for that guy.


:lol::lol:

You chose to rephrase your opinion, which means that you are well aware that your other comments were uncalled for.


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## mr.miketastic (Aug 5, 2010)

surfergirl said:


> We do have to take responsibility, each and every one of us....I totally agree! For many years I didn't do anything to stand up for something I have always felt so strongly about...and yes, I even bought into it.
> 
> Geeze Louise, 8 years ago I worked at a web design company designing web pages for porn companies - what the hell was I thinking!!! The truth is....I wasn't thinking - the job earned me good money...which made it easier to put aside my principles.
> 
> ...


I am sorry that your experiences have soured you towards all men. I would like to make a point without being offensive about objectifying women.

I do absolutely NOT feel it's OK to assault a woman based on what clothing she is wearing. I never agreed with the whole "she was asking for it" argument based on her wardrobe choices.
That being said, as long as there are women who allow themselves to be objectified by appearing in p0rnography, there will be objectification. The USA, the country I love, is such an incredibly backward place when it comes to sex and sexuality.

What happened to surfergirl was not sex, or objectification...It was force and aggression. Sex was the particular form that aggression took. The men who did that do not represent all men, and I ask that you try and remember that.

Real men have control and discipline. Real men have no need of forcing a woman into sex. Why would a real man want to be with someone who didn't want to be with them? Sex should be something purely effing awesome for both (or more ) people involved and I for one, do not enjoy one-sided lovemaking as it's a drag and pretty lame and actually a lot less satisfying than masturbating. At least with jerking off you can fantasize about the person actually enjoying it.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

*Re: Sarcasm*



Mrs.G said:


> Mom6547 said:
> 
> 
> > You took a swipe when you mentioned what you wear and then sarcastically said "Oh wait...must be my references. Crazy, I know." I thought that comment was mean spirited, which is why I called it a swipe.
> ...


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

*Accepted*



Mom6547 said:


> Mrs.G said:
> 
> 
> > I was trying to be funny! Sorry I torqued you.
> ...


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Use every tool in the arsenal I say.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> I am not in the habit of arguing with police officers. Strikes me as a pretty bad policy. But I would not suck up to get out of a ticket.


That's great but if you felt that you were getting off because he was being soft on you because of your looks or because you were a woman, then wouldn't the right thing to do be request that he give you the ticket because you deserved it?

My point is that we take advantage of our sex all the time as do men. Each gender comes with very different pluses and minuses varying from individual to individual because gender is a difference. In an ideal world you'd get hired because your bang up awesome resume, but the truth is, you have no idea how your sex & appearance played a role in whether or not you were hired. You can't read minds.

Me? I want to stop the huge atrocities happening to women, not the slight nuances due to our gender (that come with both pluses and minuses in our society in the US).


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Mrs.G said:


> AMEN!! Nothing wrong with this at all. Use that megawatt smile, my sexy red haired Trenton! :smthumbup:


Ah that was sprayed red in honor of World Aid's Day actually. Yes, I'm a crazed lunatic of an activist and I flash my smile all the time without regret or apology.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> That's great but if you felt that you were getting off because he was being soft on you because of your looks or because you were a woman, then wouldn't the right thing to do be request that he give you the ticket because you deserved it?
> 
> My point is that we take advantage of our sex all the time as do men.


You may!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> You may!


Then you need to step up and demand justice and take the ticket. That's cool and righteous sh!t


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> By men you don't know!! Yikes - I really have to wonder what "setting" you was allowing yourself to be put into -if these things happened.
> 
> 
> I look at this so very different than the majority of women here. For everyone who is pleasingly beautiful to the eyes & is RESENTFUL for this "gift" because men are being their visual selves, I seriously WISH you all could walk in the shoes of a homely women -who was NOT blessed with such beauty - to feel and live her plight in life, her struggles, so different from your own, but NOT easier.
> ...


yes, how silly of some women to even begin to think they should be able to dress any way they wish and think they should be able to do so without getting rubbed up against or groped. they should all realize men just cant control themselves and in this male controlled world we should be able to do as we wish and you as women should appreciate every minute of it. :slap::slap:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> yes, how silly of some women to even begin to think they should be able to dress any way they wish and think they should be able to do so without getting rubbed up against or groped. they should all realize men just cant control themselves and in this male controlled world we should be able to do as we wish and you as women should appreciate every minute of it. :slap::slap:


I do not believe all men is like this at all (my dear husband is surely not , neither are the sons I raise) but given the way men are being "painted" by some women on this thread, I was simply going with the flow. And yes, I do feel their is some responsibility in how a woman chooses to dress out in public, I am sure you agree with me given your feelings on porn. 

Are you all for G-springs on the beach too? 

You dont think these things send a message to *some* men? That these women are in fact "looking" for some attention. Why does women dress like this, if not to show off her wear? It surely can't be for comfort with that string stuck up her butt. 

If you so much as think I am saying they deserve to be pushed into a wall, thrown on a bed, raped or anything, you are surely misreading me, but to suggest MEN are not going to look and do some fantasizing when they walk past. Are you kidding me. 

Also, the crowd women choose to hang around with and where she chooses to go dressing any way her heart desires, as skimpy as she chooses. Some of this is indeed "inviting". Why would anyone want to step inside a Lion's Den, when you know darn well "these" type men hang out here. 

These are my points. I am surely not a prude, used to be but not any more. These are the things I will teach my daughter. Cause If I teach her she can dress anyway she wants, unscupulous men will get the wrong idea and she may be a target, it IS a real RISK in this day and age. 

Should it be, NO!! but unfortunetly this IS our reality. Why deny and blame others, it has to start at home. We are not going to change the BIG BAd Wolf, we can only try not to "entice" him.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Yes better looking people are in fact better looking. No doubt about that. Just like most Presidents are tall men. On the other hand, and don't take this the wrong way, but you can be a troll and STILL sleep your way to the top.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

chillymorn said:


> Only plain,homely or fat ulgy girls and women complain about not being objectified.or asexually people


My husband looks at me lasciviously and comments "I am objectifying you right now." We laugh.

You go to a nightclub or to a dinner with your sexy duds on, and you smile a little when you are noticed. 

There is a time and a place. Work isn't it, in my opinion.

If you go too overboard with using sexuality as a tool, you wind up with things like sexual harassment in the work place and women using sex as a bargaining chip in a marriage.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

I really don't know why so many of my posts are being deleted. I realize that not everyone agrees with me, and I am merely stating my opinion, I'm not trying to attack other posters but offering a different POV. I also realize my style can be blunt at times, but that's just how I write, as I write as I see things and post in my own truth. 

I am finding this very disheartening. And confusing. Is a different POV not allowed? debate not allowed? if there are particular words or phrases that are offensive, perhaps remove those, but entire posts? I don't get it.:scratchhead:

I honestly try not to be offensive. Perhaps I am failing?


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

SimplyAmorous, I have decided that I like you...... you know what is, is. I do believe that you and I have the exact same arguments on a lot of this. Don't take this the wrong way, it is simply a compliment to your outlook!

And Syrum, re your above post, speaking from experience, you can be blunt to the point of rudeness, and although you have, and are entitled to your POV, remember that others here, have their own experiences in this life and see things differently to you. We are here to converse, not condemn. Don't take this the wrong way, but you come across as being very judgemental at times. Don't be disheartened, just kick it back a notch.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Syrum said:


> I really don't know why so many of my posts are being deleted. I realize that not everyone agrees with me, and I am merely stating my opinion, I'm not trying to attack other posters but offering a different POV. I also realize my style can be blunt at times, but that's just how I write, as I write as I see things and post in my own truth.
> 
> I am finding this very disheartening. And confusing. Is a different POV not allowed? debate not allowed? if there are particular words or phrases that are offensive, perhaps remove those, but entire posts? I don't get it.:scratchhead:
> 
> I honestly try not to be offensive. Perhaps I am failing?


There is nothing wrong with your point of view, or your ideas. You can express them as you choose as long as they fall within the forum guidelines. If you have any further questions or concerns feel free to PM myself or any of the moderators.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Syrum said:


> I really don't know why so many of my posts are being deleted. I realize that not everyone agrees with me, and I am merely stating my opinion, I'm not trying to attack other posters but offering a different POV. I also realize my style can be blunt at times, but that's just how I write, as I write as I see things and post in my own truth.
> 
> I am finding this very disheartening. And confusing. Is a different POV not allowed? debate not allowed? if there are particular words or phrases that are offensive, perhaps remove those, but entire posts? I don't get it.:scratchhead:
> 
> I honestly try not to be offensive. Perhaps I am failing?


I accually invite debate, love it, I have been thrown off religuious forums for speaking too much about history. I am sorry I missed your post , sometimes I think I like to be offended - Ha ha . I surely mean no ill will. Please feel free to Pm me- anytime, about anything. I am not a snake , I can be very friendly. 

Syrum, I WANT people to speak their minds, it makes us ALL THINK. I am sure you are a very fine person with a good heart. But I am also. 

And, yes, we do look at this very very differently. But hey, it is OK  


And thank you Mephisto, I appreciate that


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I just want to know what a G-spring is! My imagination is running wild with that one.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I really don't know why so many of my posts are being deleted. I realize that not everyone agrees with me, and I am merely stating my opinion, I'm not trying to attack other posters but offering a different POV. I also realize my style can be blunt at times, but that's just how I write, as I write as I see things and post in my own truth.
> 
> I am finding this very disheartening. And confusing. Is a different POV not allowed? debate not allowed? if there are particular words or phrases that are offensive, perhaps remove those, but entire posts? I don't get it.:scratchhead:
> 
> I honestly try not to be offensive. Perhaps I am failing?


Oh how curious you make me!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Trenton said:


> I just want to know what a G-spring is! My imagination is running wild with that one.


Quick Google search -something like this: and this can be bought at your local SEARS store. 

Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more

Ha ha I missed the SPRING. I would not want my daughter to go to the Beach like this, TOOOOO much attention drawing.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Quick Google search -something like this: and this can be bought at your local SEARS store.
> 
> Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more
> 
> Ha ha I missed the SPRING. I would not want my daughter to go to the Beach like this, TOOOOO much attention drawing.


Me neither! As a parent of a 14 year old daughter you can bet that clothing is always an issue. She has no idea that boys/men look at her as an object as do other girls/women. Her 8th grade graduation dance is coming up and we were just looking for dresses. I'm an evil Mom because I won't let her wear a dress that comes just past her bum..."Moooommm, all the girls are wearing them!"

Puh-lease. I do believe respect for our bodies is taught because a 14 year old has no idea, or at least my naive daughter doesn't, in regards to the effects of what she chooses to wear on how society views her. 

In my mind, she's not an adult. She can wear whatever she likes when she is out of the house but until then she will have to suffer my prudence and persistence.

My 10 year old son has a similar problem with me. He thinks I'm a tyrant because I won't let him play rated Teen/Mature Xbox games because all of his friends' parents let them play. For me it's a no brainer, I am the parent.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

You you can't pick your parents. If you were born with dazzling good looks then be happy and use it. I don't regret being smart.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Mephisto said:


> And Syrum, re your above post, speaking from experience, you can be blunt to the point of rudeness, and although you have, and are entitled to your POV, remember that others here, have their own experiences in this life and see things differently to you. We are here to converse, not condemn. Don't take this the wrong way, but you come across as being very judgemental at times. Don't be disheartened, just kick it back a notch.


Part of that is because you don't agree with me and I know I can be very blunt. I don't beat around the bush.

I happen to have been replying to a post here that while I meant no ill will, felt was judgmental of women and condemning of women. So I see posts like that and disagree with them, whereas because you believe the opposite to be true you probably see me as judging.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I accually invite debate, love it, I have been thrown off religuious forums for speaking too much about history. I am sorry I missed your post , sometimes I think I like to be offended - Ha ha . I surely mean no ill will. Please feel free to Pm me- anytime, about anything. I am not a snake , I can be very friendly.
> 
> Syrum, I WANT people to speak their minds, it makes us ALL THINK. I am sure you are a very fine person with a good heart. But I am also.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt you have a good heart, I just see things from a different perspective, but in the next thread could very well be agreeing with you. I never felt that I was being rude to you in any way and apologize if i came across that way, and still stand by what I said, as it is a true reflection on how I feel society treats women.

I enjoy debate too because it gets me thinking, and that helps me grow and change as a person. I don't want to stagnate and get smelly. And I definitely enjoy debating with you.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Me neither! As a parent of a 14 year old daughter you can bet that clothing is always an issue. She has no idea that boys/men look at her as an object as do other girls/women. Her 8th grade graduation dance is coming up and we were just looking for dresses. I'm an evil Mom because I won't let her wear a dress that comes just past her bum..."Moooommm, all the girls are wearing them!"
> 
> Puh-lease. I do believe respect for our bodies is taught because a 14 year old has no idea, or at least my naive daughter doesn't, in regards to the effects of what she chooses to wear on how society views her.
> 
> ...


I agree with this Trenton. My thinking with my daughter though was not to make her dress a certain way out of shame and fear (not saying you are just explaining my line of thinking). I wanted her to dress the way she felt best reflected who she was. 

I would never want my child if they were assaulted or had someone say inappropriate things to them, feel that they were in any way to blame. I believe the person over stepping the boundaries of decency and humanity is to blame. Because we know that it doesn't matter what someone wears, what they look like, where they are or what they do, it will not stop a predator or a callous hurtful person from doing things they shouldn't. 

I also think as the Op described how she felt, that people saying "well who do you hang out with, to have these things happen?" or more or less why did you allow it? I just can't abide by that kind of thinking, it upsets me. If we point the finger at women and make them responsible for other peoples behaviour, we are taking the onus off the only people who can control if they hurt women with their actions and that is the perps.

I like that my daughter made good choices because I hopefully have instilled in her that she is first and foremost a human being who deserves respect, who should respect herself. I hope she learned that her value is not in her sexuality but rather what she offers as a person, and I hope she doesn't dress to entice men or impress friends but rather dresses in what makes her feel good. 

I find that young girls who often wear little clothing and act and dress a certain way are lacking in self esteem and are only a reflection of a society that places so much emphasis on looks and how "sexy" females are. This is also IMO an effect of the pornification of society and i don't blame girls for this, rather I think the messages they are receiving about their value are screwed up.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Syrum said:


> I enjoy debate too because it gets me thinking, and that helps me grow and change as a person. I don't want to stagnate and get smelly. And I definitely enjoy debating with you.


I live to "THINK". I LIKE your comments here , I also feel the same about the purpose of "debate" or hearing others views. I want it Raw, I can take it. 

Syrum, we probably have a similar personality , rather tenacious in our views. I have a # of christian friends I haggle with, they are still my dear friends, but we have *major divides* in some areas. We look to what we have in common the majority of the time, but still speak our minds when we discuss things, some enjoy the debate, it DOES sharpen the mind. After all, we can't all be the same, think the same. Life would be VERY boring & uneventful if so. Even forums would be ! 

In the spirit & intent of this thread (I hope) and not wanting to offend, but if I had to explain my thoughts through an article - it would be very similar to THIS - except to take out *ALL* of the "Religious" talk (I rarely agree with everything). KInda like the movie "FIREPROOF" - it was BEAUTIFUL/ inspiring, but It would have been just as good without the "salvation call" near the ending, that is how I look at this article. Why should I have to change the way I dress? If a guy has a bad imagination, that's his problem. | Chastity.com 

But even with such an article, I am NOT against Sears selling G-string bathing suits or women choosing to wear them if they want - or anything they want out in public, so long as it is legal. I am utterly for Free choice, I am not one who would take up a cause to boycott manufactures of such clothing. 

I just feel if we dress like this, there is a "responsibiity" behind these choices and not to neglect their "effect" on the opposite sex. 

Some women want a little attention, I dont judge them at all. I will be looking too! Us women know we are always checking out other women to compare ourselves to some degree. I think this normal. 

We all have our thresholds in how far we are willing to go in revealing our flesh in public. If I seen a G-stringed bathing suit on the beach, I would probably say to my husband "She is a daring one, going to get lots of hits today" and he would be checking her out, no doubt. It wouldn't bother me. 

Just like Trenton's post, if the Mothers have a Concern, THERE IS A REASON. We know what it is, we are watching out for our little girls , they don't understand yet -their effect on men. So what does it say about us ADULTS who do know, who are aware? 

A popular adage states that "*whatever bait you use determines the type of fish you'll catch.*" This is especially true with modesty. Young women who dress in a provocative manner often draw the attention of young men who are more interested in their bodies than their minds, hearts or personalities.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Trenton said:


> Then you need to step up and demand justice and take the ticket. That's cool and righteous sh!t


This is why I feel you are in a BIG right fight with your husband from your past posts. This illustrates it fairly clearly. I am good with disliking a police officer for using chivalry, as you call it, as cause not to give me a ticket while still feeling it not a good idea to pick a fight with said police officer. I am operating under a higher priority principle, that it is not wisdom to fight with police officers.

But you insist that yours is the only correct response. That I MUST, the ONLY right thing is to insist. I would bet my last nickel that this is a significant operator in your relationship.

I am not trying to bust your chops. Just struck me. Thought I would point it out.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Part of that is because you don't agree with me and I know I can be very blunt. I don't beat around the bush.
> 
> I happen to have been replying to a post here that while I meant no ill will, felt was judgmental of women and condemning of women. So I see posts like that and disagree with them, whereas because you believe the opposite to be true you probably see me as judging.


It is not that I don't agree with you, some things you say are absolutely true, and I will not argue them. But if you think that men should be held to a higher standard then so too should women, it is all about equality right? If men need to be held accountable for their actions as well as their inactions, why not hold that same standard for women?

I am not saying that women EVER deserve rape or violence, but, yes BUT, nor should they cry foul when they walk into the lion's den. It is not about being allowed, or being able, because she is able to go in, she is allowed to go in, but it is about risk mitigation. Some acts create greater risk than others.

I have lived and worked in some of the roughest areas of the world, I have been in areas FULL of dirty, loudmouthed, yobbo blokes. I can guarantee that a tarty looking woman in those areas would be hassled, she may not be assaulted but she would definitely be the centre of attention. I have also seen attractive ladies who were dressed respectably walk into those same areas and shut down the first yobbo swiftly and garner the respect of those men. If you want that sort of respect, you first have to have it for yourself. 

Do not get me wrong here, I do not agree with the bravado that some guys seem to find in a group, with a pack mentality. I pretty much despise football in all it's forms because that group seem to be the worst offenders for it, and they get away with it on bull**** findings or in-house investigations. It is purely despicable. But, so too are the girls who go into that party, get themselves wiped out drunk and then claim rape the next day. It is a two way street we are talking about here.

If you don't want a speeding ticket, don't speed. If you don't want skin cancer, don't sunbathe. If you don't want a hangover, don't drink! With all behaviour there is a consequence, whether it be good or bad, you cannot pick and choose, simply because it SHOULD be that way does not mean it IS. There is a distinct difference.

Again, I am not saying that things are all right the way they are. BUT they ARE that way and we need to be mindful of that. Hell, I don't think I should have to pay as much tax as I do, but good ol' Krudd and his kronies screwed me on that, and now Gillard is reaming me to the hilt as well, but guess what, that is the way it is and all my *****ing and moaning about it isn't gonna change the fact that I am being raped by the government. 

Such is Life!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> This is why I feel you are in a BIG right fight with your husband from your past posts. This illustrates it fairly clearly. I am good with disliking a police officer for using chivalry, as you call it, as cause not to give me a ticket while still feeling it not a good idea to pick a fight with said police officer. I am operating under a higher priority principle, that it is not wisdom to fight with police officers.
> 
> But you insist that yours is the only correct response. That I MUST, the ONLY right thing is to insist. I would bet my last nickel that this is a significant operator in your relationship.
> 
> I am not trying to bust your chops. Just struck me. Thought I would point it out.


My response to the police officer was essentially the same as yours except I freaking smile? I didn't say I slap him upside the head with my boobs and beg him to accept my female guiles and withhold from writing me a ticket. 

The reality is true regardless of your response, in not taking a ticket you are taking advantage of being a woman. Your reasons matter little. If you don't want to own that it seems rather silly to say that because I'm pointing it out this proves where my problems are with my husband. Unless of course there is no right in your world and you are blissfully ambivalent or making excuses for the wrongs that upset you but feel you must dismiss.

I'm not in a BIG RIGHT fight with my husband currently (can I get some c*r*e*d*i*t* as to how reasonable and non-righteous I am now?!) although maybe tomorrow, I wouldn't rule it out.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Syrum said:


> I agree with this Trenton. My thinking with my daughter though was not to make her dress a certain way out of shame and fear (not saying you are just explaining my line of thinking). I wanted her to dress the way she felt best reflected who she was.
> 
> I would never want my child if they were assaulted or had someone say inappropriate things to them, feel that they were in any way to blame. I believe the person over stepping the boundaries of decency and humanity is to blame. Because we know that it doesn't matter what someone wears, what they look like, where they are or what they do, it will not stop a predator or a callous hurtful person from doing things they shouldn't.
> 
> ...


Most little girls have trouble with self esteem...their esteem of self is still developing. If we were born whole people that didn't need to develop...well, whole different world.

Shame or fear, nah....It's simple, if you dress like that you can bet you will get attention and you're not ready for that type of attention and as your parent I won't allow it. 

My daughter makes the right choices as of now as well but those come with their own set of consequences. It's a very tough balancing act.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

In Toronto, there was recently a demonstration called **** Walk. Women dressed in short skirts and fishnet stockings loudly screamed about injustice. A police officer made a comment to the effect of women who don't want to be raped, shouldn't dress like ****s, hence the name of the march.
Despite being born and raised in Canada, I was treated with the same sexist nonsense. My parents are from a third world, conservative country. Jamaican women are viewed as baby making slaves. Those who get raped are often told that they enjoyed it or that they brought it on themselves for being in a male's home. This is what my mother told me, when I disclosed that I was raped at 19.
I totally agree that girls' clothing is much too sexy. 12 year olds should not be wearing make up or G strings. I was allowed to dress more revealing in my late teens. Now I find that I am dressing more conservatively than when I was younger.
Sometimes when teens say that their parents are mean, they are actually right. At least Trenton allows her daughter to have a social life. I had to stay home, clean and slave all time. I could not share my feelings or else I would be brutally beaten. No talking on the phone with friends, either. Even murderers can get calls from family in prison.
Syrum, TAM moderators are incredibly anal about what we are allowed to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Mephisto there's a difference between walking around a Johannesburg ghetto alone and expecting to be treated with respect in an office.


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Runs like Dog said:


> Use every tool in the arsenal I say.


I say this too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Look if someone thinks I'm handsome and it gets me what I want, GOOD. I don't even care if it's another man. 

Although I will say I did not appreciate being rubbed up against by a waitress this one time. I could have pulled out her belly piercing with my teeth she was that close. That sort of thing is not done, and if you want a tip just serve the food. Thanks.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> Mephisto there's a difference between walking around a Johannesburg ghetto alone and expecting to be treated with respect in an office.


Absolutely correct. Respect is something that starts with yourself and is earned.... how can you expect others to respect you, when you have none for yourself?

The arguments on here have gone very wide ranging, by risk mitigation it is about a persons own behaviour influencing the outcome of a situation.

Put a sl*ttily dressed girl in a Jo'berg ghetto and there will be a very different response to her than if you put that same girl in the same spot in a tac-vest carrying a side arm and an mp5. Especially if she knows how to use it.

Situational awareness needs to be taught from a young age, so that kids, be they boy or girl can assess the risk that they are in and respond accordingly.... in other words, they know when to get the hell out.

In the office, there are very different rules of engagement, but being able to spot the a**hole in the mix is generally not hard. I am able to pick the guys who are likely to cause trouble in a place, and I don't have a woman's innate 6th sense. 

I have been the one dragging girls out of situations that they shouldn't be in, simply because they knew no better. I have also been the guy who walked that girl to a cab, or to her door and walked away once she was safe. I am no angel, but I know what is right and what is wrong. Unfortunately, there are guys who can't make this distinction and girls need to be aware of that.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Mephisto said:


> It is not that I don't agree with you, some things you say are absolutely true, and I will not argue them. But if you think that men should be held to a higher standard then so too should women, it is all about equality right? If men need to be held accountable for their actions as well as their inactions, why not hold that same standard for women?


I don't understand this logic. A woman should be held to higher standard in case what someone thinks she wearing is inappropriate and thus they believe they have a right to grope, assault or rape her or say anything they like?
I actually don't believe men and women are equal and this just proves that, because men can wear what they like, go wear they like and never have to worry if they were "asking for it".

If I like the way a man dresses, does that means he should be held accountable if i feel he is so sexy i can't resist and have to grab him or grope him? Or should I be accountable for my own actions no matter what any one else is doing?



> I am not saying that women EVER deserve rape or violence, but, yes BUT, nor should they cry foul when they walk into the lion's den. It is not about being allowed, or being able, because she is able to go in, she is allowed to go in, but it is about risk mitigation. Some acts create greater risk than others.


Statistics show that this is not true and that women are more likely to be raped or assaulted by someone they know and trust, not in some seedy situation.

Moreover if what women wore had an impact on the way men treated them women in countries where they are required to be covered from head to foot would see no women ever being sexually assualted or raped, however we know this is not true, women are still harmed in those countries and cultures. thus it has absolutely nothing to do with what a woman is or is not doing and everything to do with what how the perpatrator somehow excuses his actions.



> I have lived and worked in some of the roughest areas of the world, I have been in areas FULL of dirty, loudmouthed, yobbo blokes. I can guarantee that a tarty looking woman in those areas would be hassled, she may not be assaulted but she would definitely be the centre of attention. I have also seen attractive ladies who were dressed respectably walk into those same areas and shut down the first yobbo swiftly and garner the respect of those men. If you want that sort of respect, you first have to have it for yourself.


I have been dressed in a tracksuit, out for a walk in broad daylight in the suburbs and had a car full of guys pull over and harrass me, I had to lock myself in a phone booth. They only left because I said I was calling the police. I think society needs to send the message that it doesn't matter what women do or where they go, that no one ever has a right to treat them badly or to assault them.


> Do not get me wrong here, I do not agree with the bravado that some guys seem to find in a group, with a pack mentality. I pretty much despise football in all it's forms because that group seem to be the worst offenders for it, and they get away with it on bull**** findings or in-house investigations. It is purely despicable. But, so too are the girls who go into that party, get themselves wiped out drunk and then claim rape the next day. It is a two way street we are talking about here.


So if a guy got drunk and passed out and another guy raped him, would it not be OK for him to complain, or are men the only ones allowed that privilege?
If you are raped you are raped.
Young people often take risks and neither young men nor women ever deserve to be preyed a pon because they are young and vulnerable and doing what most young people do, and exploring the world.



> If you don't want a speeding ticket, don't speed. If you don't want skin cancer, don't sunbathe. If you don't want a hangover, don't drink! With all behaviour there is a consequence, whether it be good or bad, you cannot pick and choose, simply because it SHOULD be that way does not mean it IS. There is a distinct difference.


The difference is you inflict the hangover on your self, you don't have one drink and then people say oh well you must want to be drunk and shove a tube down your throat and force a hang over on you. You should allways get to decide where you draw your own boundaries.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Mephisto said:


> Absolutely correct. Respect is something that starts with yourself and is earned.... how can you expect others to respect you, when you have none for yourself?
> 
> The arguments on here have gone very wide ranging, by risk mitigation it is about a persons own behaviour influencing the outcome of a situation.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying about situational awareness.

For many girls/ women their realities are living in situations we would deem less then desirable, that is their reality. They have no examples to do better or know better, they live in it. 

But it also really takes the spotlight off the real issue, and that is some people feel they have a right to harm to others and this is never right, and also ignores the fact that most assaults on women are not perpetrated in some dark alley way. Women are most often harmed by people they trust and it doesn't matter if they are wearing a sack or bikini, it isn't about her, it is about opportunity (thinking they will get away with it) fear power and control.

So I don't feel it's a good idea to tell young women not to dress a certain way because it might give some men the wrong idea and end in harm to her. This is what leads most women to question themselves when sexual assault does happen, it's what leads to women feeling shame about something they had no control over and wasn't their fault. Sending the message that they might be to blame is dangerous IMO. the responsibility not to hurt others lies in us, not with the victim. A big problem with sexual assault is that the woman allways seems to be aportioned some sort of blame. This is why most women and girls never tell anyone, and studies show perpetrators rely on this being so.

So given that i believe rape and assault is never about what someone is wearing and in fact happens to women in all sorts of scenarios, I won't make my daughter ever feel that she is responsible for what someone else does, by what she wears.

Myself and my daughter do not wear certain things out of fear of others, but more because we know that we have to like who we are. I can only say that is has worked for me, and my daughter is almost 18 and one of the most responsible, clear headed, never in trouble, knows what she wants, stand her ground people I know.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Syrum said:


> So I don't feel it's a good idea to tell young women not to dress a certain way because it might give some men the wrong idea and end in harm to her.


This is fine. BUT do you also teach her not to become resentful when men look, oogle, maybe a whistle, some flirting ? (I am referring to completey NON touching acts- and not VULGER comments). 

I have 3 books on my shelf about *Testosterone*. * Did you know men have 10 times more of this (on average) in their bodies in comparison to us women*? *

This is the primary hormone for LUST and AGGRESSION, also Fantasies*. The less you have , the less you have of all 3. My husband is a lower test guy, I wish I could boost his some! Probably why is has never been like many of these men that go out and act like animals. 

Why did God do this to MAN?? It is important to educate ourselves on the WHY's men are so very different than women and be mindful of these facts. 


I took this from another Post I did a year ago about TEST & it's effects (below). I am in no way trying to excuse BAD VULGAR rapish behavior, just pointing out the BIG differences between Men & women. To ever expect men to not look, desire, fantasize, you are beating a dead horse. It will never be. WE are not equal in this hormone and men's struggles are different than ours because of this. 

*** As a side note, when my sex drive went through the roof (I KNOW it was a TEST increase, I had physical symptoms to back that up-comparable to my teenage sons. I was seriously Undressing every man I seen in public, I was compelled to flirt ALL freakin' day, I wanted sex 3 times a day, I seriously felt like I stepped inside a body of a RAGING Teenage male and it was CRAZY- I kept thinking -how in the world does anyone concentrate like this! *It affected my MIND terribly*, this is when I started to LOVE porn, so I sooooo understand the mind of a male - this lasted for 8 straight months. I was a "dirty old woman" for sure!! I think I can relate well to the allure men have-becaue of this real experience I went through & why they act the way they do (again, the looking, oogling, flirting, etc) NOT rapish behavior of coarse- always wrong. 

Taken from this book : Amazon.com: The Alchemy of Love and Lust (9780671004446): Theresa L. Crenshaw: Books



> As to Sexual roles -Testosterone :
> 
> *Increases sexual thoughts & fantasies
> *Responds to Novelty , inspires one night stands & affairs
> ...


 I guess I see it like this-- Because of Hormones, Women will always have PMS & men will NEVER understand US -but have to put up with us anyway. And MEN will likely always oogle -and women will never understand them & take offense to it - but hormonally speaking , we both have reasons why these things come upon us & we ACT certain ways. 

For both men & women, we need to be mindful of these things and not let our hormones "RULE us" in the EXTREMES that hurt other human beings, whether it be our spouses, or a stranger. But there IS 'science" behind why men & women often act the way they do.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

As always Syrum, you misrepresent what is said to suit an argument that you feel justified in without actually focussing on rationally.

At no point in any of my posts have I EVER said that abuse is ok, because it is NOT. Just as you expect men to raise up and all be noble gentlemen, knights in shining armour to hold up the virtues that are so sacred to the world we live in, then perhaps the ladies should be just as virtuous. Fact is that there are just as many women as men who do not hold those values, who do not value themselves. These are the people who generally have the problems, and cause them, because they either see themselves as victims or as villains, simply because they have never learned true strength of character.

It is pretty obvious from your posts that you see all men as villains and the women are all their victims, but rest assured it isn't this way at all. Some men are confused by their rapidly changing role in this world, some women are overly empowered by the men's confusion and look to maintain that power by never allowing a status quo. Here in these very forums are hundreds of posts by men who are beaten down verbally by their wives, this abuse continues, even tho, most men can easily physically overpower a woman, yet these men choose not to. Abuse is abuse is abuse, regardless of the gender or direction it takes. 

Yes, some women are victims, no it is not right, yes some men are right C*CKS, no it is not right. Yes, some men are victims, no it is not right, yes, some women are N*STY, no, it is not right. But armed with this knowledge, we can all do our best to stick to the safest path. We choose which path we walk and that is fact.

You speak of being harassed by a carload of hoons, perhaps it happened and you were powerless against it, I feel for you in this, but I stand by my conviction that pack mentality is not a good thing and it is wrong by all standards. You are not the only one who this has happened to. Many men have been harassed, bullied and beaten, so that is not a gender thing, and it is not always about sex, lust or ogling. It is just a pack of mongrels out to make themselves feel like they have some value in their own personal power over another living being.

Equality. Does a kilo of lead weigh more than a kilo of water? Nope. Are they the same? Nope. Are they of EQUAL weight, Dang straight they are. Do not mistake equality for uniformity. We are equal, but have differing strengths and weaknesses. We have evolved this way to make a stronger unit couple. So we cannot say that women are not equal simply because of men's tendency towards sex and violence. Men evolved to be able to overpower and kill to survive and protect, the combat and danger shortened his life span so he was wired to NEED to reproduce. Women evolved to create life, relationships and nurture. We did this to survive for millenia and it worked well. 

Let me ask you a few questions, and I invite answers from any and all just as an example;

1)You and Hubby are home in bed and there is a crash of glass and footsteps in your house..... who goes to investigate?

2)You are driving in the desert, your car breaks down and it is a 20 mile hike in 40degC heat to get help.... who goes?

3)You are hiking with your 5 year old and Hubby, you startle a bear and it starts to chase..... how do you handle this?

4)You are on a cruise with Hubby and bub, the ship sinks and you are left in the ocean, with only enough support for two of you..... who is left behind?

These are definitely out there situations in this day and age, but were not uncommon in one era or another. Think hard on your answers, because the answers will tell you more than you realize about what roles we take in this life. It is not inequality, it is diversity.

Cultural differences...... I have worked in Saudi Arabia and other parts of the middle east, there is a VERY big cultural divide between them and us in the west. I am not a great fan of the whole "Religion" thing, and as a people who go to pray 5 times a day and BELIEVE every word in their holy book, I find the oppression of these people's free will to be staggering to say the least. I worked with a 34 year old, virgin, because he could not AFFORD to BUY a wife. HELLO, if this is not going to cause damage to a persons perceptions then I do not know what will. I do not think that statistics from this culture is very admissable in this setting. Women ARE oppressed there, so too are the men, but any culture that sees women as chattel simply need not apply.

Getting drunk is not a crime, nor is having sex while you are drunk, but for a person to be consensual while drunk and then claim rape the next day IS a crime, but it is not provable that it was consensual without an exam. I have read some case where the girl waited MONTHS to decide it was rape having a team of football players tag team her, oh she was consenting at the time, but because she thought better of it in the cold light of day and felt dirty she decided it was rape, AFTER bragging to her friends about it for a week or two. 

I know many guys who have gotten drunk and woken up next to a horrid specimen of the female form, who they would never have dreamed of sleeping with while sober.... is that rape? Could be, she obviously took advantage of him in a weakened condition..... :scratchhead:


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

No takers on the questions then I take it?


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

Missed me have you?:rofl:


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

Syrum said:


> Missed me have you?:rofl:


:lol: I asked for anybody to answer those questions..... to challenge their beliefs in equality of the sexes..... but hey, not sure if we made kind of amends in GP's "exemplary wife" thread before it got deleted...... dammit was enjoying the fraccas on there!


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## Mrs.G (Nov 20, 2010)

Mephisto, I loved your post. Many female members of TAM view women as victims of cruel, hateful monsters who *gasp* dare to complain about wanting sex from their wives.Men who are so "controlling" that they do not want every disagreement, to turn into a power struggle or gender war are seen negatively. I've been called "anti woman" because I believe that spouses should submit to each other, or because I love that my husband doesn't let me be a bossy brat. It reduces our credibility as women, when EVERY issue is somehow always the men's fault.
There's no question that my husband would go see if we are being robbed or scare off a bear for me. He also opens doors for me, holds my coat open and carries heavy things. He does all of this, because he feels that a man should be kind and gentle to his wife. He should be my big, strong hero. You know what? After years of living alone, I appreciate it a lot!
With rights come responsibilities. A lot of ladies who yell about equal rights still expect men to give up seats for them. LOL 
Marilyn Monroe once said: "I don't care if it's a man's world, as long as I can be a woman in it." Women have more power than we realize. No man can resist a sexy woman with a nice attitude about life. 
My husband and I share different roles in our relationship. I am the social director, the chef and emotional CEO. He is the laundromat, the grocery shopper, the driver and the anchor. We are both The Sexual Directors. I like it this way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Mrs.G

I don't show up in this thread because I really don't have any resentment! 

Some chit chat............................

My husband won't let me go to the market alone because he doesn't want me to carry the heavy stuff! He said he is my mule! We always go to the market together. I just need to pay the vendors, he carries everything! 

When we ride scooters home together, he is always behind me, he wants to make sure I am safe. Sometimes he happens to go past me, then he would wait for me, it is a very sweet feeling! When we go up stairs or escalators, he is always behind me, he wants to make sure I am safe. 

Sometimes I jokingly ask him to put on shoes for me, OK, he says, but then he starts tickling my feet! I have to struggle very hard to get away from him. I don't dare to ask him to put on shoes or socks for me anymore!  I only get tickled if I do! 

There are lots of sweet things in our life! I am very happy being a feminine woman!


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

Thanks Mrs G! 

I sincerely appreciate your outlook. Seriously, if we were all EQUAL in all things, we would be the SAME, which is sooooo bloody boring it would drive us all loopy, to an EQUAL degree of course 

I would like to know your answers to the questions in full though, because the first two are kinda straight forward, they are generally a given, but when forced to consider the third and fourth questions, the third entity involved adds a major twist to the dynamic. 

I guess you not wanting to have kids would make for interesting answers though.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Viewing a person as a sexual being is not the same as objectifying. "Objectifying" means what it says, treating someone like an object, with no will or consciousness. Objects may be touched freely, treated in anyway you feel like. When men grope, it is quite clear they see the woman as an object. Ignoring a woman's (or man's) full person and focusing solely on their sexual characteristics for your own gratification, is objectifying.

Lots of people notice and even watch beautiful people within their line of sight. To notice (and appreciate) someone's looks does not objectify them. 

Many men know the difference and in my personal experience, many respect women as human beings even as they appreciate a woman's sexual identity. I used to do a lot of running in a very warm climate--short shorts, tank tops were my usual gear, and I had legs to die for. While it was inevitable that some man would whistle or shout something, most did not--although I would notice men noticing. There is such a huge difference between that and forcing your attention--or your person--on someone.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

So if using all your assets is appropriate, it is ok to buy your position? Regardless of your skills? I guess that explains politics, doesn't it!

I disagree that it is appropriate to use sexuality to influence professional relationships. It is one thing to present one's self as a professional-clean, neat, a sense of style, the things that say "this person has his/her act together." It is another thing entirely to go beyond that. I've never tried to get out of a ticket (although the only time I was caught for speeding, my speedometer was off) by smiling, flirting, or--God forbid--crying--with an officer. The few times I've been pulled over, however, I've just gotten warnings. Same for my ex and my son--maybe because we all drive pretty carefully and the violations are generally minimal (driving without the annual sticker on the car, tail-light out, those kinds of things). Maybe it is where we live. Honestly, if I were a cop, I'd give a person a ticket for sure if they DID cry, because someone that juvenile shouldn't be driving! 

I understand that women use men's assumptions about women to their advantage, and I reject that. I wish men would, too, so women would quit doing it. Men have every right to expect women to act like adults, not like spoiled brats or helpless creatures. Just like women have every right to expect men to act like adults, and not like hormonal teen-age boys (who are still learning to handle their sexual natures). If we held ourselves and those around this to the same standards of adult behavior, life would be a lot easier!


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

1)You and Hubby are home in bed and there is a crash of glass and footsteps in your house..... who goes to investigate?



> 2)You are driving in the desert, your car breaks down and it is a 20 mile hike in 40degC heat to get help.... who goes?


He does.



> 3)You are hiking with your 5 year old and Hubby, you startle a bear and it starts to chase..... how do you handle this?


I don't know, can bears climb?



> 4)You are on a cruise with Hubby and bub, the ship sinks and you are left in the ocean, with only enough support for two of you..... who is left behind?


did you mean two of us or one?
Well I can swim for a long time, so perhaps we would swap and support each other and hope to hold on untill rescue.



> These are definitely out there situations in this day and age, but were not uncommon in one era or another. Think hard on your answers, because the answers will tell you more than you realize about what roles we take in this life. It is not inequality, it is diversity.


I honestly don't believe in equality. There is still so much inequality in the world. I don't understand why it matters if I do believe men should have a more traditional role. I know there are plenty of men who treat women with respect.

I see the issue like this. We had the sexual revolution and we had the various feminist movements. Without a doubt we needed those things to happen. However I believe the sexual revolution did a lot of harm to women, because instead of giving them freedom it has repressed women more than ever with the outcome being the pornification of women. This has harmed women more than helped IMO. What really needed to take place was not women being fed lies about being sexually equal to men that being free meant behaving like "men". Being free sexually would have meant removing the shame and fear about sex, without placing ridiculous burdens on women to become porn stars or pressure to be Ok and cool with the saturation of porn into society, something that doesn't respect women and is thrown in our faces every day. 

Then there's the feminist movement which promised women equality, something we could never have. All this did was pit men and women against each other in competition, based on patriarchal ideals, instead of what really needed to happen and that was to value women for what they are, for the unique value and beauty they bring to the world.

My issue with this particular topic is that women are not equal (and I dont think they will be), they are not equal sexually and the balance of power does rest with men. Women are sent messages all their lives about what men find attractive and how porn is the norm, behaving in a way that some would view as sl*tty is now revered by others, (but those people don't really value women), they just want to use women for sex, and the messages young women are receiving are mixed and very confusing. 

I did not like how because the OP made reference to having comments made to her and that she was assaulted, that many people just assumed she was behaving or dressing in a certain way to attract this attention. Stats show that most likely she was not behaving in a manner that any one would deem sl^tty, however the instinct is to question a woman's behaviour and not place the blame for such awful actions where it firmly belongs, and that would be on the perpatrator. 

As for the abuse thing, I would agree that many women belittle the men they are supposed to love, and they do not trust in his abilities. This is a big mistake, and I believe women should choose a husband wisely and allow him to be Captian as you called it. And men should respect women and really value them. 

I think society has changed the way we are "allowed" to view each other and relationships, and we are told that wanting traditional values in relationships is a bad thing, that men and women have to be equal etc. However I feel that it just puts two people competing with each other and causes resentment, lack of respect and loss of desire for most couples.

now I'm tired so if none of that made any sense, oh well.


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## surfergirl (Jan 27, 2011)

Syrum said:


> 1) I did not like how because the OP made reference to having comments made to her and that she was assaulted, that many people just assumed she was behaving or dressing in a certain way to attract this attention. Stats show that most likely she was not behaving in a manner that any one would deem sl^tty, however the instinct is to question a woman's behaviour and not place the blame for such awful actions where it firmly belongs, and that would be on the perpatrator.


Thank you Syrum....I noticed your support on the topic throughout the thread and wanted to thank you earlier (and comment on other posts as well) but just haven't had decent blocks of time to sit and write over the last couple of weeks.

When I wrote my original post I had just gotten off the phone with a friend who's 19 year old daughter had that morning experienced her first "man-handling" incident on a crowded train going to work. 

I was so cranky when I heard the news; partly protective crone, partly "having been there" feelings I guess....I needed to vent somewhere where I knew my voice would be heard - so thank you all for the responses - even the ones I don't totally agree with. I appreciate seeing/reading different perspectives....there is always a possibility of learning something new. 

I don't hate men and I don't hold all men accountable for the actions of the lecherous ones. And I do know the difference between an appreciative "noticing" and a licentious undressing when they happen ("noticers" will more often than not make eye contact and smile after looking at my boobs....the creepy ones eyes never reach my own - they're too busy travelling from my boobs to my crotch).

My gripe has never been against men - it's about the freedom being male represents to "me" on this topic. I grew up with three older brothers, we were (are) a close knit team, I am a tomboy at heart - I grew boobs and had to change how I dressed and to some degree behaved in public....they didn't. It also changed the way people saw me. 

The univited sexual advances I've recieved over the years (one of the first at 13, being from a male teacher sliding his hand up under my skirt when I took work to his desk....and yes, I did report him)....have definately affected the way I go out into the world. I don't see myself as a victim though, but as someone who understands the way things "just are". Hence choosing to mostly dress in a way so as to not attract unwanted (sexual) attention. 

I can't ever remember feeling disempowered by my femaleness - frustrated and at times angry at those who couldn't/can't see beyond my body.....but never a lesser person because of it. I thank my parents for that. Because I'm sure if I hadn't been given such a grounded & supportive upbringing, then I could very easily have grown in to a man-hater and very angry against the world.


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