# Go time...and time to go. Sucks...



## Shamwow

So...been through Sex In Marriage, Coping With Infidelity, and now here I am. Divorce. One could say TAM has failed me and my marriage...but I know that couldnt be further from the truth...my W did that. My thread has been a roller coaster ride for almost a month now. And my life has been that for nearing three months. With the help of this forum, professionals and friends, I find myself serving my STBX papers coldly and calmly, as if it were easy.

But it isn't. As much as she has acted as a cold and heartless succubus with no conscience in these last few months, I know deep down that isn't true, as I loved her and took care of her for 8+ years, and received the same and more from her the entire time...before the change came. My friends and family have told me (pretty much ALL of them, separately) that they never would have expected her to do what she did to me these last few months (cheated, lied, denied, blameshifted, lied, cheated again, lied more, projected, lied, and guilted ME for it). They all told me how fiercely loyal she was...and I agreed, and pointed out how much I always loved that about her. She would punch Pacino in the d**k if he said anything bad about me (proverbially, of course...but seriously, she would have done it if necessary.)

A couple years of regular work travel, and one day it's all over. And now she is too, as are we. She became infatuated with some dou**e selling her a story of why I am not deserving of such a sexy, fantastic, fun-loving girl, actually fell in love with him over a few months of chronic texting, ph calls and video chat sex (and then PA) on the road, and handed over our marriage to him. I felt it, gathered evidence and tried to stop it, but she chose to continue and let it happen against my strongest wishes...testing my strength.

My strength, which I didn't remember I had, my friends and this forum have brought me here. I am gone, moved out, shocked that my months of overtures, pleas, then calm demands and demonstration of massive self-improvement for the sake of our marriage have gone essentially unnoticed and disrespected. She has no money (at the moment at least), no dogs (we've raised and loved two from pups over the last 7+ years) and now she has to maintain a house she can't easily afford by herself now that I've moved out.

Now I'm sending process servers to make the clock start ticking...because she is showing me she doesn't CARE that she f***ed some guy while married to me, her husband, lover, friend. She wants me to think it's my fault SHE did these things. The things I had to do to discover proof of this are "sick" to her.

And tonight I find myself knowing I'm doing the right thing...but also having a hard time blocking out all the good memories...there are so many. What do I do with them? Sell them on craigslist? Feel so strong about 95% of the time...then I accidentally run across a picture or two as I'm setting up my computer gear in my new apt, and I'm crying w my dogs for an hour. Grown man, in charge of the sitch, many steps ahead of her at this point in the D. But wish I could take that 5% and shove it up her *** for what she's done to my great memories. I want them all back so I can throw them away. But I can't. The good times were great, but she is gone now, and now so am I...all I hear from her now is how I'm a (insert your negative descriptor) for effing with people's lives, never anything about her months of planned adultery being wrong in any way.

Tomorrow is attempt number two for her to be served. Hope she answers the door this time. Let's get this ball rolling so I can feel good again. Different every day, forgive my apparent weakness for love lost...

My attorney tells me to put being "nice" right out of my head...does it get easier to do that, or am I in for months of method acting to end this (newly defined) sham of a marriage?

No pun intended. FML.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aug

What you are going through is all part of the process of grieving the loss of your marriage.

Dont worry about her not being served right away. Let your lawyer deal with it. Your wife is not the first to avoid being served.


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## Chaparral

This is all too sad, I can't believe the bull sh!t women fall for. I've been around a long time now and have seen the low class guys and the lines women will go for. I've seen everything from older married women to newlyweds go for a line that that no one could possibly believe. I know what the dirt bags are thinking but for the women to buy into it is incomprehensible. And they have to know they are risking everything for someone who is just looking to get laid.

Good luck Sham, sure wish this had turned out differently..........

Chap


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## Halien

Shamwow said:


> But it isn't. As much as she has acted as a cold and heartless succubus with no conscience in these last few months, I know deep down that isn't true, as I loved her and took care of her for 8+ years, and received the same and more from her the entire time...before the change came. My friends and family have told me (pretty much ALL of them, separately) that they never would have expected her to do what she did to me these last few months (cheated, lied, denied, blameshifted, lied, cheated again, lied more, projected, lied, and guilted ME for it). They all told me how fiercely loyal she was...and I agreed, and pointed out how much I always loved that about her. She would punch Pacino in the d**k if he said anything bad about me (proverbially, of course...but seriously, she would have done it if necessary.)



You know, I didn't realize that this part of her existed. The loyal protector. So now you're dealing with the sudden realization that the last eight years were possibly just a lie, or at least that has to be a major thread in the mind's processing of what is going on. On top of that, you suddenly have to redefine Shamwow. Who is this new guy, who no longer has a devoted wife by his side, at least mentally?

I don't know if it can mean much now, but you pushed through the confrontation in a way that can truly start the process of re-defining yourself on a good foundation. A man that you can be proud of. Wouldn't it take a pretty shallow person to never grieve the loss of what seemed so pure until just recently? In order to let her go, you have to let yourself mourn. Soon though, you'll begin to see that you deserve happiness, and deserve something great, but you will want it on your terms, when you are ready for it.

I'm rooting for you.


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## girlfromipanema

Good lord, Sham, you made me cry. You are a fine young man. And a gentleman. I'm glad you have TAM to help support you through this next unfortunate phase. It's really a privilege to follow along, and watch your strength and confidence build. Thanks for sharing your journey with us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## girlfromipanema

By the way, the last 8 years were NOT a lie. She changed, but her love for you was real and the girl you cherished existed. I'm 1000% certain of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Right, sham-get the "nice" out of your head. Like it or not, a state of war exists.

P.S.- Let's hope this thread doesn't grow like a 1950's B-grade horror flick atomic experiment gone wrong!

We're here for 'ya, bro!


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## TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore

Shamwow said:


> But it isn't. As much as she has acted as a cold and heartless succubus with no conscience in these last few months, I know deep down that isn't true, as I loved her and took care of her for 8+ years, and received the same and more from her the entire time...before the change came. My friends and family have told me (pretty much ALL of them, separately) that they never would have expected her to do what she did to me these last few months (cheated, lied, denied, blameshifted, lied, cheated again, lied more, projected, lied, and guilted ME for it). They all told me how fiercely loyal she was...and I agreed, and pointed out how much I always loved that about her. She would punch Pacino in the d**k if he said anything bad about me (proverbially, of course...but seriously, she would have done it if necessary.)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As the news slowly began to trickle out about my pending divorce, many individuals in both mine and my ex-husband’s life were shocked.

Shamwow, you probably did not marry a horrible person. Somewhere along the line she become unhappy and chose selfish ways to find happiness. There are times when those choices cause damage to where the relationship it beyond repair. 

A friend offered these consoling words to me while trying to recover from the emotional pain of my divorce, “Sometimes when an individual is not happy, they can behave in a very undesirable way. It doesn’t make them a bad person, just a person who made bad choices.”

Take care!


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## gearhead65

Sham- You've very clearly described how I feel about my wife. Circumstances are different, but you and I both seem to be in the same place. We didn't marry a lie. We didn't marry bad people. We just didn't get to see how unhappy they had become, because they couldn't face it themselves. The irony in this is that the selfish things they have done to be happy will make them more unhappy with themselves in the long run. It is the only justice in the process. We are better off in all of this facing these feelings upfront. They have a much longer and harder road to travel. 

You can't continue to be nice. They want that to make themselves feel better. Be an ass and do it because it is how you feel. They deserve it, right?

GearHead


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## seeking sanity

gearhead65 said:


> The irony in this is that the selfish things they have done to be happy will make them more unhappy with themselves in the long run. It is the only justice in the process. We are better off in all of this facing these feelings upfront. They have a much longer and harder road to travel.
> GearHead



I believe this to be true, but what I don't agree with is that the suffering of our ex's is somehow justice we should enjoy. To me it's just more sad. Sure they've hurt us and we want to react to this pain, but during my various separations, I didn't once "enjoy" the suffering and pain my ex was going through. 

I don't understand this sentiment.


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## golfergirl

seeking sanity said:


> I believe this to be true, but what I don't agree with is that the suffering of our ex's is somehow justice we should enjoy. To me it's just more sad. Sure they've hurt us and we want to react to this pain, but during my various separations, I didn't once "enjoy" the suffering and pain my ex was going through.
> 
> I don't understand this sentiment.


I don't think it's enjoying their pain, it's justification that they are experiencing the results of their choices. The BS had no choice in their pain and is just seems like the karma train is evening things out a little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

Sham, you have done yourself proud. You handled your wife the proper way. I went through a break up (not marriage) when I was very young where my girlfriend cheated on me and chose to leave. I handled it poorly. I begged and pleaded and was very weak. A few months later I was told by friends that if I had been strong, she probably would have come back to me. Many years (20 years) later this former girlfriend told me that she regrets that she cheated on me. I regret that I was weak.

For some reason, I feel that your wife is going to come back to you. She will wake up and regret what she has given up. It will be up to you to decide what your response to her will be. 

One thing for sure, if she does come back and you decide to give the marriage another chance, she will know the consequences. She will know that infidelity really is a deal breaker. She will respect you for being a strong man. She will love you more.

I wish you the best. I admire your strength. I hope in the future that I never have to deal with what you did, but if I do, I will remember your story. It will give me strength just like it will do for many others who you have shared your story with.


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## Shamwow

She done got served.

Phew...now we're officially moving forward. For some reason I was starting to fear she'd serve ME and file first if I dragged my feet any longer, not that I'd care really, but why lose the momentum I have on my side if I can avoid it?

Interesting, she texted to tell me the papers arrived, but they looked identical to what she already has - the Summary and Petition for Dissolution of Marriage that I signed and left on the table 2 weeks ago when I left. (I presume they are, they are just now officially delivered and the clock is now ticking on the 30 day response time she has). She said her attorney needs the Marital Termination Agreement to move forward. It's my understanding that is one of the LAST things we do before the divorce is final. Leads me to believe she truly did hire Lionel Hutz, or...just maybe...she doesn't actually have an attorney yet. My response was to ask her to have her attorney contact mine to clear up any confusion and move forward. Curious to hear from my guy if he actually hears from someone. Either way, tick, tick, tick.

Anyway, prob wasn't worth mentioning that, I've sent a note to my guy telling him all that. But since I feel like I'm in some kind of TV movie where things like this actually take place, I figured I'd share my mild amusement. Have a good day y'all, she done got served. Is this S-Day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 20matc11

You are not alone in this. Details are different but the basics are the same for me as well. This support has helped and will help you too. 

Good luck with everything. Find the person you deserve to be with.


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## Mike11

SadSamIAm said:


> Sham, you have done yourself proud. You handled your wife the proper way. I went through a break up (not marriage) when I was very young where my girlfriend cheated on me and chose to leave. I handled it poorly. I begged and pleaded and was very weak. A few months later I was told by friends that if I had been strong, she probably would have come back to me. Many years (20 years) later this former girlfriend told me that she regrets that she cheated on me. I regret that I was weak.
> 
> For some reason, I feel that your wife is going to come back to you. She will wake up and regret what she has given up. It will be up to you to decide what your response to her will be.
> 
> One thing for sure, if she does come back and you decide to give the marriage another chance, she will know the consequences. She will know that infidelity really is a deal breaker. She will respect you for being a strong man. She will love you more.
> 
> I wish you the best. I admire your strength. I hope in the future that I never have to deal with what you did, but if I do, I will remember your story. It will give me strength just like it will do for many others who you have shared your story with.


:smthumbup::smthumbup::iagree:


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## gearhead65

seeking sanity said:


> I believe this to be true, but what I don't agree with is that the suffering of our ex's is somehow justice we should enjoy. To me it's just more sad. Sure they've hurt us and we want to react to this pain, but during my various separations, I didn't once "enjoy" the suffering and pain my ex was going through.
> 
> I don't understand this sentiment.


I don't revel in anyone's pain and sorrow, but that doesn't mean it isn't required. Actions have consequences, and there is nothing we can do to "punish" them. Life does that on its own. 

I am however struck by this interpretation as it is the same view my STBXW has when I try to explain the pain that will come. She to see's it as me enjoying it. I don't understand that interpretation. Perhaps I'm wording things very poorly and not getting the message across.

GearHead


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## Fido

gearhead65 said:


> Sham- You've very clearly described how I feel about my wife. Circumstances are different, but you and I both seem to be in the same place. We didn't marry a lie. We didn't marry bad people. *We just didn't get to see how unhappy they had become, because they couldn't face it themselves. The irony in this is that the selfish things they have done to be happy will make them more unhappy with themselves in the long run.* It is the only justice in the process. We are better off in all of this facing these feelings upfront. They have a much longer and harder road to travel.
> 
> GearHead


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: My ex still suffers from her decisions to this day and probably always will. She left the perfect life and entered a complete mess with no future.



gearhead65 said:


> You can't continue to be nice. They want that to make themselves feel better. Be an ass and do it because it is how you feel. They deserve it, right?
> 
> GearHead


I disagree with being an ass though. I think the best way is to take care of yourself first of all. Just like you did Sham, find a place to stay, get the dogs and keep on living. Things will fall back into place for you. It's only been a month, so give it some time. The trip to the bar with your buddy and your experience with those girls are a good sign. Things take time.

Good Luck!


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## seeking sanity

Maybe it's the word "justice" - as if the consequence to the Wayward spouse makes our pain easier somehow, because it doesn't. They will feel the sting of their actions, and it will hurt them someday. Probably worse than it hurt us because there is guilt in addition to loss. Feeling it is important for them to grow as people. But it's all just tragic and unnecessary. There is no justice. There is maybe personal growth. There is pain and sadness. But no justice. Everyone losses.


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## ManDup

gearhead65 said:


> I don't revel in anyone's pain and sorrow, but that doesn't mean it isn't required. Actions have consequences, and there is nothing we can do to "punish" them. Life does that on its own.
> 
> I am however struck by this interpretation as it is the same view my STBXW has when I try to explain the pain that will come. She to see's it as me enjoying it. I don't understand that interpretation. Perhaps I'm wording things very poorly and not getting the message across.
> 
> GearHead


I understand what you are saying (having been there and done that). I told my ex about the negative consequences of her choices as a way to "logic" her out of it. It didn't work, of course, and she did eventually come to suffer some of those very consequences, and eventually she said "well I guess you were right, I'm going to be poor". And I said, "I don't really want you to be poor, I was just trying to warn you." Revenge loses its sweetness when it gets cold. Which I think is why that saying exists.


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## Chaparral

TotoWeRNotInKansasAnymore said:


> As the news slowly began to trickle out about my pending divorce, many individuals in both mine and my ex-husband’s life were shocked.
> 
> 
> 
> A friend offered these consoling words to me while trying to recover from the emotional pain of my divorce, “Sometimes when an individual is not happy, they can behave in a very undesirable way. It doesn’t make them a bad person, just a person who made bad choices.”
> 
> Take care!


She was on the road too long, resulting in too many lonely nights. Partied too much for company, drank too much, outcome too predictable. If she isn't suffering now, which I think she is, she soon will be. And that's sad too.

Chap


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## F-102

chapparal said:


> She was on the road too long, resulting in too many lonely nights. Partied too much for company, drank too much, outcome too predictable. If she isn't suffering now, which I think she is, she soon will be. And that's sad too.
> 
> Chap


But the sick thing is, will she ever admit it? And if not to Sham, his and her families and friends, will she ever admit it to herself?


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## LostJB

F-102 : I think this is a very good point. Its about taking responsibility for where you are. Its a common theme in my couseling sessions. Even when they seem to regret what has happened, it seems a lot of spouses play the blame game, or plainly feel like this all just "happened to them". Unless they are able to take responsbility for their situation they will never be able to take control of their lives and move in a positive direction.


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## Shamwow

Halien said:


> On top of that, you suddenly have to redefine Shamwow. Who is this new guy, who no longer has a devoted wife by his side, at least mentally?


Totally asking the same thing. Not because I don't feel put together right now. Just a good question.

Came home to my apt for the third straight night, and it kinda hit me that I'm essentially single now. I have my own place, and when all's said and done each day, at night it's just me. No one to bs with and relax with but me (and the dogs). Different way to live after so many years.

Gotta declare the new me I guess. Think outside the box. Hopefully I'm awesome.

Hitting the gym hard tomorrow morning, I know that much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> But the sick thing is, will she ever admit it? And if not to Sham, his and her families and friends, will she ever admit it to herself?


Also wondering that. Hard not to. My guess is yes...eventually. But in the short term, nope. She's a new person as far as
I know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Shamwow said:


> And tonight I find myself knowing I'm doing the right thing...but also having a hard time blocking out all the good memories...there are so many. What do I do with them?


I was with my stbx for 42 years. We have two sons and I have an abundance of joyful and happy memories. If I suppress those good memories then I suppress the vast majority my happy life experiences from the time I was just eighteen to what I am now, 62. And sure I got hurt in that time as well, so I have both good and bad memories. So how do I handle it all?

First off I say to myself I love the woman I knew, I couldn’t love the woman she became. So in my mind I see two women and they are very distinct from one another. Like they are two different people in the same body.

I have made a video of 3,000 photos from 1968 when we first met to 2009 when we separated along with music of the times. I am able to sit back and watch that video and have it bring tears of joy into my eyes because I am thinking “I loved that woman, I couldn’t love the woman she became.”.

I hope that in some way helps you with your memories.


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## Shamwow

AFEH said:


> I have made a video of 3,000 photos from 1968 when we first met to 2009 when we separated along with music of the times. I am able to sit back and watch that video and have it bring tears of joy into my eyes because I am thinking “I loved that woman, I couldn’t love the woman she became.”.
> 
> I hope that in some way helps you with your memories.


This is exactly what broke me down the other night. Couple of pictures from a great vacation, all was so happy. Made me SO MAD that she could forget that, hide her growing unhappiness, and give in to some fantasy bs and step out of our marriage. All the good times, the plans for the future, all of it. Not sure if it did me good to break down over that, but I know I've been generally down since then.

I did bust my a** at the gym today, that helped some, and heading to watch the ballgame (read "watch my team lose again") this afternoon w some friends, I'll try to put this crap out of my head in the meantime. I know it's only been a couple weeks since I left, but being moved into my new place brings some stark reality to the situation. Sad thing is, I feel like I miss her. I know the "her" in my house right now wouldn't live up to the girl I miss, but I truly do miss her anyway. I miss having a partner. That's my cross to bear at the moment, I know it'll take a long time, just wish it was a year from now and I could skip this mess.

And wow, 42 years...can't even imagine, wish this stuff didn't have to happen to anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

You are doing absolutely the right things with the exercise. You’ve probably a lot of anger in you and it does need a release. I got two big punch bags and knocked sh!te out of them. I used the anger to get really fit. It’s good to eat well, healthy and to take care of your spirit and soul in a way that suits you.

Next time you feel the emotions coming on try thinking “This too shall pass”.


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## sixteen miles

Tough stuff, but hang in there Shamwow! You have been a solid rock throughout your ordeal and it will get easier, but it is only time at this point. You have to stay busy, work, the baseball, your doggies, the workouts, just keep rolling. Maybe you can even take up a hobby that you were interested in and never pursued for whatever reason, but stay moving.

I sit here myself in a apartment all alone, lonely after 35 years of marriage and if I did not have music to listen to and a real intense hobby I think I would lose it all. Football is back so that will keep me going until the end of winter.

I have a very strong feeling that the STBX is very sad right now, I feel in my heart for some reason that she now has hit the end of the ride on the "fantasy" train and it has pulled into the station. It is time to get off now and face the music that she wrote.

You will hear from her very shortly. Reality has now struck hard on both ends and it is brutal when it does.

Most of all take care of yourself!


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## Lostouthere

I could not even begin to imagine facing something like this after 42 or 35 years of marriage. People like you give me a reason to see things better than they are. I hate that you all are going through this after such a long time in a marriage I guess it happens at all ages. I have not been married long but it hits me hard and well nothing I can do. Sometimes I sit back and wonder if she will ever have to go through the things Im facing emotionally.


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## Shamwow

Lostouthere said:


> I could not even begin to imagine facing something like this after 42 or 35 years of marriage. People like you give me a reason to see things better than they are. I hate that you all are going through this after such a long time in a marriage I guess it happens at all ages. I have not been married long but it hits me hard and well nothing I can do. Sometimes I sit back and wonder if she will ever have to go through the things Im facing emotionally.


Thanks for the thoughts...for the record, I've only been married 6 1\2 years, together 8 1/2. I was referring to AFEH's post (42 yrs). Clearly it still bl*ws hard though, no matter the length of time. Argh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

sixteen miles said:


> Tough stuff, but hang in there Shamwow! You have been a solid rock throughout your ordeal and it will get easier, but it is only time at this point. You have to stay busy, work, the baseball, your doggies, the workouts, just keep rolling. Maybe you can even take up a hobby that you were interested in and never pursued for whatever reason, but stay moving.
> 
> I sit here myself in a apartment all alone, lonely after 35 years of marriage and if I did not have music to listen to and a real intense hobby I think I would lose it all. Football is back so that will keep me going until the end of winter.
> 
> I have a very strong feeling that the STBX is very sad right now, I feel in my heart for some reason that she now has hit the end of the ride on the "fantasy" train and it has pulled into the station. It is time to get off now and face the music that she wrote.
> 
> You will hear from her very shortly. Reality has now struck hard on both ends and it is brutal when it does.
> 
> Most of all take care of yourself!


Thanks, sounds like we're in similar boats right now. How long have you been on your own? We shall see how the near future plays out. As for hobbies that I've always wants to take up...I've started boxing. Good for me, and good for if I ever accidentally run into the OM. 

Other hobby I've wanted to take up is crawling into a bottle of Jim Beam, but I know that will do no good, so I've resisted that one. Beers with my buddies will have to suffice in that department.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostouthere

Shamwow said:


> Thanks for the thoughts...for the record, I've only been married 6 1\2 years, together 8 1/2. I was referring to AFEH's post (42 yrs). Clearly it still bl*ws hard though, no matter the length of time. Argh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Still that is a while. Like you said it does not matter the length I guess it still hits you hard. Too bad there is not a fast forward button for this stuff.


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## Lostouthere

Shamwow said:


> Thanks, sounds like we're in similar boats right now. How long have you been on your own? We shall see how the near future plays out. As for hobbies that I've always wants to take up...I've started boxing. Good for me, and good for if I ever accidentally run into the OM.
> 
> Other hobby I've wanted to take up is crawling into a bottle of Jim Beam, but I know that will do no good, so I've resisted that one. Beers with my buddies will have to suffice in that department.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boxing would be a good hobby and like you said if you ever run across the OM but then again would it be worth it? I have definitely wanted to take up the other hobby of climbing into a bottle but as you said that would be no good. Been alot of things that have went through my mind but hey what to do.


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## Shamwow

Lostouthere said:


> Boxing would be a good hobby and like you said if you ever run across the OM but then again would it be worth it?


Probably not. Unless he acted in a way that made it worth it... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostouthere

Shamwow said:


> Probably not. Unless he acted in a way that made it worth it...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can go with that lol. Believe me I felt that way too and still do at times but you know he probably done me a favor.


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## sixteen miles

Sham the boxing sounds like a real grand idea and it will keep you fit and sound. Good job by you and a handy selection if you come across the OM. Judging by the support on this forum you will have a lot of folks lining up to take a good clean shot at him.

My story is way to long for any hope at this point; and hijacking threads is not my style; but thanks for asking. I have been on my own now for about 4 years and one half years when my wife took off to "take care'" of our 25 year old son who went on his own to go to college. She then decided never to return. The pain and emotional agony is hard to describe and I would like to say I feel better than I did after the first few months, but I would only be kidding myself as well as you. It hurts beyond description.

Stay busy, that is my best suggestion. if the mind wanders it causes way to much pain. The end of the day is the worst, when you pray for sleep so that your mind shuts off. I too have found solace in a bottle, but always keep it in moderation, it only leads to more pain.

Stay strong and busy that is your best course of action and I love the boxing. When you train picture, the OM'S face and you may become a champ!


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## Mike11

Hey Sham 

It is hard for me to give you advice here, I have never been exactly the same situation that you are in right now, although I did went trough something similar in my younger years as my then Girlfriend had cheated on me and left me for another man, I remember the devastation that I went trough at the time, I can tell in certainty that you will come out of this a much stronger man.

I went trough another life altering experience which I am not really comfortable disclosing here at the moment, but that experience kept my Wife and me living together in the same house but in practice we were separated both emotionally and physically for some number of years, this was another hard experience to go trough, I went through all the emotional stages, shock, denial, anger, resentment and eventually acceptance, we were living under the same roof but no longer as an actual married couple, you can imagine the pain.

We are now both trying hard to get back to be together, it is a Work in Progress although at this moment of time there nothing is guarantied and we may end up officially divorcing.

Take it day by day, build your life again, you are young, there is plenty of time for you for a new relationship, you came out of these last 2 weeks the best as you possibly can, you sent a very strong message to your STBX and your family and friends, you may not see it that way right now but in the long run, you will rip the benefits.

Stay Strong, find yourself a circle of friends that will support you trough this, keep doing the Gym, (stay away from the bottle tough)
go out, date (but I wold not recommend getting in to anything serious at this moment of time).

I know it sound Cliche, but that works 

Stay Strong


----------



## F-102

This may help, Sham: change your image. Get new clothes, new haircut, etc.

This helped me IMMENSELY when I broke up with my 1st "serious" GF some 20 yrs. ago. It made me feel like a new person, and-it opened up new opportunities (if you know what I mean).


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> This may help, Sham: change your image. Get new clothes, new haircut, etc.
> 
> This helped me IMMENSELY when I broke up with my 1st "serious" GF some 20 yrs. ago. It made me feel like a new person, and-it opened up new opportunities (if you know what I mean).


New haircut...check. New designer specs...check. New biceps and pecs...check. New clothes...some...check. The clothes are more out of necessity as I've lost a lot of weight in the last few months. Considering hiring someone to help me redesign my wardrobe once I get to my goal weight (10-15 more lbs) and start showing off the goods. I get lots of compliments these days on the new look so far...from people I know as well as being hit on by strangers occasionally when out with friends. Kinda fun. I want more of that. Keeps me walking taller.

But yeah, I wanna redesign this sucker from the ground up. Sham 2.0 in full effect. Had wanted to give that gift to my W if things had turned out differently ("wanna test drive the new Harley?"), but now she will just have to see what she is missing. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien

Shamwow said:


> Thanks, sounds like we're in similar boats right now. How long have you been on your own? We shall see how the near future plays out. As for hobbies that I've always wants to take up...I've started boxing. Good for me, and good for if I ever accidentally run into the OM.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Boxing is a great hobby. I work out with heavy gloves often, and it does wonders for the delts. Just remember that as you get older, injuries seem to hurt more, so be smart. I fought alot in high school and college, but I'm referring to fist fights. Now, I support a boxing gym that des great work with kids from bad neighborhoods. I'm 46. Little over a month ago, the trainer wanted me to do a short spar with a young guy in his twenties who was really agressive, but wouldn't focus on skill. He was one of the MMA types, so no padding, light gloves, and it was supposed to be casual. I landed a couple of punches early that really infuriated him. Guess it was 'roid rage. He knocked me completely out. Got a minor crack on the orbital bone beside the eye, sprained neck vertebrae, and had to meet with a supplier CEO the next day with massive bruises and swelling. My car was rear ended a few days later - back to chiro. Long story short, make Sham 2.0 a smart Sham. Those guys with the huge muscles in the gym ARE just as tough as they seem.


----------



## Shaggy

Sham

I was thinking about you wife's comments about you and the OMW. It is very doubtful that
she has spoken to the OMW so the only info she has been fed is from
the OM. No doubt he was feeling very vindictive when he talked to her about you 

So who knows what he said
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## the guy

Why to self improve brother, good job.

Ask your lawyer if he has any hotty perelegals he can bring with him to court. 
I'm thinking of you sitting in court across from your stbx with 2 hotties between you and you all GQ looking.

Talk about seeing whats she's missing?


----------



## Shamwow

the guy said:


> Why to self improve brother, good job.
> 
> Ask your lawyer if he has any hotty perelegals he can bring with him to court.
> I'm thinking of you sitting in court across from your stbx with 2 hotties between you and you all GQ looking.
> 
> Talk about seeing whats she's missing?


Ha! That made me smile...it is a big law firm, lots of young professionals walking around there, reminds me of Boston Legal or something...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Shaggy said:


> Sham
> 
> I was thinking about you wife's comments about you and the OMW. It is very doubtful that
> she has spoken to the OMW so the only info she has been fed is from
> the OM. No doubt he was feeling very vindictive when he talked to her about you
> 
> So who knows what he said
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Guaranteed he told my W what HE wanted her to hear. I would imagine the only person in the world (that is aware of this at least) that doesn't know the OMW's true reaction to my call...is my STBXW. Probably will stay that way too, as she wouldn't believe the truth from anyone right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Halien said:


> Boxing is a great hobby. I work out with heavy gloves often, and it does wonders for the delts. Just remember that as you get older, injuries seem to hurt more, so be smart. I fought alot in high school and college, but I'm referring to fist fights. Now, I support a boxing gym that des great work with kids from bad neighborhoods. I'm 46. Little over a month ago, the trainer wanted me to do a short spar with a young guy in his twenties who was really agressive, but wouldn't focus on skill. He was one of the MMA types, so no padding, light gloves, and it was supposed to be casual. I landed a couple of punches early that really infuriated him. Guess it was 'roid rage. He knocked me completely out. Got a minor crack on the orbital bone beside the eye, sprained neck vertebrae, and had to meet with a supplier CEO the next day with massive bruises and swelling. My car was rear ended a few days later - back to chiro. Long story short, make Sham 2.0 a smart Sham. Those guys with the huge muscles in the gym ARE just as tough as they seem.


I'll definitely keep that in mind. Sorry to hear you got KO'd...ouch man. Ballsy to get in there with a hotshot kid though, props.

I plan to avoid the broken nose and shiner as much as possible. Mostly it's aggressive by nature, and that's fun right now. Great workout in the meantime though...and it's good for the confidence to know you can land a hell of a punch if need be (in general).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien

Shamwow said:


> I'll definitely keep that in mind. Sorry to hear you got KO'd...ouch man. Ballsy to get in there with a hotshot kid though, props.
> 
> I plan to avoid the broken nose and shiner as much as possible. Mostly it's aggressive by nature, and that's fun right now. Great workout in the meantime though...and it's good for the confidence to know you can land a hell of a punch if need be (in general).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Had my nose broken twice in the younger years, but fighting was not optional in my dad's biker group. It was either face the other guy or face him if we backed down. Like you, I'm more comfortable at a desk in the work life, but I think you are doing a positive thing with boxing. It gives you a feeling of control over one of the more threatening aspects of your life. I really admire you for seeking to turn what happened into a launching point for growth, Sham.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Guaranteed he told my W what HE wanted her to hear. I would imagine the only person in the world (that is aware of this at least) that doesn't know the OMW's true reaction to my call...is my STBXW. Probably will stay that way too, as she wouldn't believe the truth from anyone right now.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not sure I wouldn't give the OMW a bit of a heads up and also give her your wife's number. It seems like everyone involved should have as strong a helping of the truth as you two have had. It's infuriating to know that D!rty Ba$tard is STILL feeding you're wife a line of bullsh!t.

The sooner she knows the real OM the better. He has really screwed over every one of you. Let him carry his own weight and lie in the bed he's made.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> I'm not sure I wouldn't give the OMW a bit of a heads up and also give her your wife's number. It seems like everyone involved should have as strong a helping of the truth as you two have had. It's infuriating to know that D!rty Ba$tard is STILL feeding you're wife a line of bullsh!t.
> 
> The sooner she knows the real OM the better. He has really screwed over every one of you. Let him carry his own weight and lie in the bed he's made.


Well, I presume OMW knows my W's number, per the 20,000 texts on the cell bill each of the last three months. But I suppose I could offer. I need to contact her this week anyway, as I need to confirm that she doesn't need that lab sample anymore, as it'll be discarded after this week. Kinda don't want to contact her though, as I figure she would contact me if she wanted to talk about anything else in the meantime, don't want to bug her...already dropped a load of nukes for her to sort through, right? (she thanked me up and down for the call, but still a load of nukes)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

So, went for a total "guy afternoon" today. Watched the football game with one of my friends and a group of "his friends" that I've met but don't know really well. It was really fun, but it was a huge dose of single maleness, if that makes sense. Half the guys are married, the other half are hopelessly content bachelors, pushing 40 and acting like 18 year olds (video games, shooting each other in the junk with nerf dart guns, fart jokes, you get the picture). Not judging, it was fun, but clearly I'm going to have to reinvent some new friend circles that play like grownups too. (I tend to act like a teenager when I hang around my friends that I've known since those days too, so I totally get it)

Anyway, didn't plan to talk at all about my situation, though I'm sure a few of them knew, besides my friend that invited me. Then another guy showed up, who I know a little better than the others. I said hey, he said hey, then he said "sorry to hear about things, man." turns out he was at the volleyball party thing last Monday that my W went to. I think I hid it well, but I didn't like that outer circles of acquaintances know what's up. This marks the first person to give me their condolences, that I didn't presume already knew (or that I had talked to). Guess I have to get used to it and eventually it won't get to me.

He asked me a few questions and I kept it vague (while also stating my position in the leaving), said something like "well, you know man, there's only a few reasons to make a man leave, let's just say I had to leave." of course he understood what I meant. Feels weird to have to keep up damage control at this point, but I guess as long as I continue to play it cool and
not lay out the sob story, as well as look strong in my decision (and not look downtrodden about it), I'll come out on top in the respect department. Sad though. I'm a gossip topic now. Any pointers?

Also turns out he's been considering leaving his wife for a year and a half, they've been back and forth the whole time...but they have kids, and are taking things slow. Also, the cable guy that hooked up my tv and Internet today asked where I moved from. Told him across town...brief pause..."separated from my wife, needed to find a new home base." so HE tells me that he and his wife just split up in July, we swapped a few stories and made that unfortunate bond. I must really be in the grown up world if I now share in this most adult of unfortunate situations...good to know we're not alone, huh?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

Shamwow said:


> I'm a gossip topic now. Any pointers?


Yes, keep doing exactly what you`re doing.

I broke up with my last Ex (Before marriage) when we worked together.
She spent every spare second absolutely trashing me ( lousy in bed, tiny ****, *******, idiot...)
I never uttered a word about her or the break up to a single soul.

14 years later we still work together and most of the people who were around to hear her vitriol have come to me at one point or another to state that the way I handled myself during her ranting bull**** gave them a great deal of respect for me.

She still does it to a point to this day when my wife is at a company function or comes in to see me and I can see everyone else just roll their eyes like they can`t believe this idiot is still going on with this **** 14 years later.

Do exactly what you`ve been doing.


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## joe kidd

Just say thank you and change the subject. I found that some who approached me where just trying to glean more info. Nothing like someone else's problems huh?


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## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Well, I presume OMW knows my W's number, per the 20,000 texts on the cell bill each of the last three months. But I suppose I could offer. I need to contact her this week anyway, as I need to confirm that she doesn't need that lab sample anymore, as it'll be discarded after this week. Kinda don't want to contact her though, as I figure she would contact me if she wanted to talk about anything else in the meantime, don't want to bug her...already dropped a load of nukes for her to sort through, right? (she thanked me up and down for the call, but still a load of nukes)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You might let her know that he's telling your wife that you are the one that broke her (OMW's) heart if you have to talk to her anyway. Give him all the credit he has coming to him.


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> Just say thank you and change the subject. I found that some who approached me where just trying to glean more info. Nothing like someone else's problems huh?


Great advice. I will do this from now on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

She (OMW) might appreciate hearing from you Sham, but maybe leaving you alone for the same reasons. You should reach out, the worst that can happen is she doesn't want to talk,

As for what to say, how about "I'm and old fashioned guy who just can't share his favorite toys with anyone. When I found it was being played with by someone else, I decided to move on and trade up instead of sharing it,"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Shaggy said:


> She (OMW) might appreciate hearing from you Sham, but maybe leaving you alone for the same reasons. You should reach out, the worst that can happen is she doesn't want to talk,
> 
> As for what to say, how about "I'm and old fashioned guy who just can't share his favorite toys with anyone. When I found it was being played with by someone else, I decided to move on and trade up instead of sharing it,"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup::lol::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## krismimo

HEY SHAM hope your ok been checking on here off and on, hope all is well and keep your head up.


----------



## Shamwow

krismimo said:


> HEY SHAM hope your ok been checking on here off and on, hope all is well and keep your head up.


All good, at least as can be expected, thanks.

Just had a nice email exchange with OMW. She asked a few more questions, and reiterated her thanks for me contacting her, as much as it hurt to hear the details.

So much for my STBXW's argument of how "vengeful" and "low" it was for me to contact and "hurt this poor woman". As many have pointed out, ummm...at least I didn't **** her husband. She said she had suspected for months and had felt she was crazy and imagining things...but my call made her realize she was right. Also mentioned if she had known she (my W) was married, she would have done what was necessary to contact me as well.

Thank god for a kindred spirit in mutual marital pain. I needed that, folks.

P.S. Had a 2 hour shiatsu massage today. Nice...Big work days tomorrow and Wed. I can feel good going in.


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## krismimo

Oh wow go SHAM! My other question is did she want the DNA sample from you and have you heard from you STBEW?


----------



## Shamwow

krismimo said:


> Oh wow go SHAM! My other question is did she want the DNA sample from you and have you heard from you STBEW?


OMW is asking her attorney about the sample, though since she has a confession of the affair from OM it may be moot.

And my STBXW hasn't been in touch since shortly after she was served papers on Fri.

I know she's buying a used car now. So I guess she got paid, and her "money troubles" are over. Good. Didn't want to worry about her cable getting turned off...


----------



## krismimo

Hahahahahahhahahahahah


----------



## F-102

You're doing great, Sham. Even better to hear about the OMW!


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> P.S. Had a 2 hour shiatsu massage today. Nice...



Happy ending? :smthumbup:











I'M KIDDING!!!


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> Happy ending? :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'M KIDDING!!!


Ha...but definitely not.


----------



## joe kidd

Getting adjusted to the new place yet? Having your dogs must help.


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> Getting adjusted to the new place yet? Having your dogs must help.


Yeah, been here almost a week now, starting to feel more normal. I've been out with different friends every day, and yet for some reason my life seems kinda boring because I go home alone. Stupid, yeah. But just being honest.

Started working again, tons to do so I'll be busy. Kinda looking forward to it. My last 2 1/2 weeks I was basically on the lam, and running on adrenaline. Guess that's wearing off now, and normal life is coming back. Just a new normal.

Sounds crazy, but I'd really like to talk to my W...miss her...just know she would be the new her, and I don't miss that person. I left that person. But I miss my wife as she used to be...bigtime.

And the dogs are a huge help...sure missed em.


----------



## joe kidd

Shamwow said:


> Yeah, been here almost a week now, starting to feel more normal. I've been out with different friends every day, and yet for some reason my life seems kinda boring because I go home alone. Stupid, yeah. But just being honest.
> 
> Started working again, tons to do so I'll be busy. Kinda looking forward to it. My last 2 1/2 weeks I was basically on the lam, and running on adrenaline. Guess that's wearing off now, and normal life is coming back. Just a new normal.
> 
> Sounds crazy, but I'd really like to talk to my W...miss her...just know she would be the new her, and I don't miss that person. I left that person. But I miss my wife as she used to be...bigtime.
> 
> And the dogs are a huge help...sure missed em.


Missing her is very normal. Hell man you loved her and I'm sure you still do ( well not what she has become).


----------



## Lostouthere

Shamwow said:


> Yeah, been here almost a week now, starting to feel more normal. I've been out with different friends every day, and yet for some reason my life seems kinda boring because I go home alone. Stupid, yeah. But just being honest.
> 
> Started working again, tons to do so I'll be busy. Kinda looking forward to it. My last 2 1/2 weeks I was basically on the lam, and running on adrenaline. Guess that's wearing off now, and normal life is coming back. Just a new normal.
> 
> Sounds crazy, but I'd really like to talk to my W...miss her...just know she would be the new her, and I don't miss that person. I left that person. But I miss my wife as she used to be...bigtime.
> 
> And the dogs are a huge help...sure missed em.


Glad to hear you are getting settled in. You are doing great man just hang in there. Yeah going home to a empty place sucks but you will get better at coping with it. Glad to hear work is going to keep you busy that will be great. I have got to pick up a second job so I can stay occupied plus to play catch up to where I was at prior to the divorce and prior to marriage for that matter but anyway. Missing her is normal just keep remembering you left the woman she had become not who she was when you met her.

Maybe I need a dog:scratchhead:


----------



## Shamwow

Lostouthere said:


> Maybe I need a dog:scratchhead:


Highly recommend it...no more loyal friend.


----------



## Lostouthere

Shamwow said:


> Highly recommend it...no more loyal friend.


I think anything is more loyal than my STBXW right now. I might check into getting one would probably help out with the loneliness.


----------



## Iconoclast

Sham. It's ok. Allow yourself to mourn the loss of something so speical. It's what you are supposed to do. Allowing yourself to have the experience, will help you get through the experience.


----------



## morituri

Pets, even fish, have been shown to have a calming effect on humans and in many cases, reduce blood pressure. But just like children, they are a responsibility that one should not assume lightly.


----------



## F-102

Shamwow said:


> Highly recommend it...no more loyal friend.


A house ain't a home without a dog!

Say Sham, I have 2 questions:

How did your STBX know about the lab test on her panties?

Does she know where you are now?


----------



## Almostrecovered

morituri said:


> Pets, even fish, have been shown to have a calming effect on humans and in many cases, reduce blood pressure. But just like children, they are a responsibility that one should not assume lightly.


It's been proven that both the dog owner and the dog release bonding chemicals into the brain when petting occurs.


----------



## Jellybeans

morituri said:


> Pets, even fish, have been shown to have a calming effect on humans and in many cases, reduce blood pressure. But just like children, they are a responsibility that one should not assume lightly.


This is so true. I have a fish that is like my dog. Love him to pieces.


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> A house ain't a home without a dog!
> 
> Say Sham, I have 2 questions:
> 
> How did your STBX know about the lab test on her panties?
> 
> Does she know where you are now?


Not "certain" about how she knows about the lab results, but would bet the mortgage OMW used it to get the confession from her H, so he prob told my W in the aftermath. Only one of my friends knows about it, and he's airtight and on my side (didn't ask him to choose a side, he just did), and has even asked her not to contact him anymore after this went down. So it had to be OM. I knew when I sent that stuff to OMW that my W would eventually hear about what was sent, so not surprised.

She may know where I am, but has not asked. One of the guys that helped me move is her best gf's H, so she very well may know. Not that I mind, the hard part is over, almost would prefer if she knew for some reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Suck...dreamt vividly pretty much all night that I saw my W and she was civil and wanted to apologize and discuss what she did and what happened to our marriage. Guess I'm kinda jealous reading so many of the other threads where the WS actually owns up some and wants to talk about it. My W has cut that off from me so far, either on purpose to hurt me, because she's too embarrassed to see me, or because she just plain doesn't give a s***. Hell, she prob takes the position that I left without giving her a chance to talk, though we all know I tried for weeks and months prior, pretty much was my only goal in life at the time.

Anyway, woke up missing her, and I know that's normal and all...but for the first time in weeks I'm having to resist the urge to contact her. Sigh. How do I get my head on straight here? Just hoping for a conversation at some point, but I took such a hard stance when I left that it's probably the last thing she wants to do. Then I thought she's prob missing the dogs like crazy and I could offer to drop them off for a day or two every once in a while. That would make me feel good...but may show a ***** in my armor. But does it matter at this point? I've done all the "tough stuff" leading up to now, and stayed strong in the face of her angry outbursts after i left. Is there any upside to offering her any kind of olive branch like that? Sham 2.0 doesn't know yet, old Sham would do it in a heartbeat though.

Won't do anything for a while, anyway. Still has only been a couple weeks...but as firm as I am in my decisions lately, I'm starting to (gasp) "feel for her" in this situation. Someone please kick me in the nutz
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

don't beat yourself up

doubt will always creep in now and again, especially regarding big decisions as this

FWIW- I still have periods of doubt that R was the right thing for me and wonder how I'd fare in D.

The basic thing is that you know after careful consideration what is right for you, emotions sometimes take some time to catch up to the logic


----------



## ManDup

Remember what I said about 3 weeks? That's the optimum missing time. It will pass.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Suck...dreamt vividly pretty much all night that I saw my W and she was civil and wanted to apologize and discuss what she did and what happened to our marriage. Guess I'm kinda jealous reading all the other threads where the WS actually owns up some and wants to talk about it. My W has cut that off from me so far, either on purpose to hurt me, or because she just plain doesn't give a s***. Hell, she prob takes the position that I left without giving her a chance to talk, though we all know I tried for weeks and months prior, pretty much was my only goal in life at the time.
> 
> Anyway, woke up missing her, and I know that's normal and all...but for the first time in weeks I'm having to resist the urge to contact her. Sigh. How do I get my head on straight here? Just hoping for a conversation at some point, but I took such a hard stance when I left that it's probably the last thing she wants to do. Then I thought she's prob missing the dogs like crazy and I could offer to drop them off for a day or two every once in a while. That would make me feel good...but may show a ***** in my armor. But does it matter at this point? I've done all the "tough stuff" leading up to now, and stayed strong in the face of her angry outbursts after i left. Is there any upside to offering her any kind of olive branch like that? Sham 2.0 doesn't know yet, old Sham would do it in a heartbeat though.
> 
> Won't do anything for a while, anyway. Still has only been a couple weeks...but as firm as I am in my decisions lately, I'm starting to (gasp) "feel for her" in this situation. Someone please kick me in the nutz
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


An "expert" I heard the other day said 90% of communication between two people was visual. That is the problem with going dark. Of all the texts from your wife, all of them could be interpreted in different ways. A text conveys little or no emotion. From what she has texted a few times you could definitely say she was pissed.

However, for example, when she said you evidently didn't want to work it out, could have been interpreted in different ways. Was she literally wanting to work on the marriage, being sarcastic,making fun,just being mean, etc.?

The only way your going to KNOW what is going on is a face to face. One thing she knows for sure now, is how serious you are.
I'm not recommending divorce or reconciliation. But, you owe it to yourself to see her face to face if only to shore up your own decisions and how, mentally and emotionally, to move forward. 

If it were me, what hasn't been said is overwhelming what little communication you have had. I'm also not trying to encourage you to hurry up and approach her , however , is there a possibility she will be on the road again?

In any event she seems like an intelligent, strong willed person and may be hard to read. Butif anyone could I would assume you could. Keep emotions in check and see if you can get her to reveal her true feelings. This could be impossible since she has , deservedly, taken on a load of guilt, shame, and embarrassment. She may simply be unable to own what she has done.

What ever you do, good luck and be cool. Wish 8yrs was here he gives the best advice in certain situations.

Chap


----------



## Cypress

Sham,

Before you think seriously about talking to her, re-read your threads on both forums. She is not your pre-affair wife, she is someone else now. She will be angry, accusatory and possibly vindictive. Wait another week before you make any decisions about this. Going out with friends or meeting a female friend for a drink will really help. Getting a counselor is a good idea too.

If you decide to try to get some closure be ready for any type of response from her. She may be so painfully caustic that it hurts you even more. She may want to just go dark and not respond and all. Or, the most concerning, she may want to reconcile. Don't be Sham V1 when you talk to her. Don't think about the happy pre-affair past, that time is dead and buried.

Cypress


----------



## Shamwow

I heard the warnings about going dark and listened...but made my decision and I believe in it, it did me a whole lot of good to get away by myself for a while, try to put my head on straight after months of god knows what. Guess what I didn't do is tell her "I will not be contacting you for a while". Not that she deserved that heads up, just a realization on my part, as a "nice guy" who has never acted so indifferent to my W. D papers on the table, her secret exposed and then I disappeared. Clearly it had a strong effect, but I wonder if I cut off a chance for potential closure?

Not looking for R, just some humanity. But she probably sees what I'm doing as cold and inhumane (at least right now), so I may not be alone in feeling that.

Cypress - I've seen a counselor for the last 4 weeks, just saw him yesterday and he says I'm doing very well. (Yay!) I mentioned feeling the new "normal" setting in, and that it was not fun most of the time. Also choked up for the first time in front of him and couldn't talk for a minute...just talking about not having a partner when all's said and done each day. Very new to me as a general concept. Drinks w a female friend will happen on Saturday, so that should be nice.

Chapparal - I've thought about that "Guess you didn't want to work it out" comment many a time, believe me. But then I remember that it was immediately preceded with "You really are a pile. Guess I was right", and immediately followed by "Good to know it's war" and "Why are you f***ing with someone else's life? You are so sick." She was just trying to guilt me with the work it out comment, as 10 minutes prior was when I had finished my initial call with OMW, and the fireworks flew instantly, believe me. 

So I'll give it some more time, but I'm really feeling like I need to initiate some form of communication before too long. Dark is starting to feel, well, dark...for me. Even if it's just to drop the dogs for her to play with for a day.


----------



## piqued

Shamwow said:


> Dark is starting to feel, well, dark...for me.


Sham, this is understandable. 8 years is a long time and a huge investment. Plus, as you've mentioned, you miss the girl she used to be. Very natural the feelings you are having.

However, do not contact her. If you offer up the dogs for a visit she, or anyone, will see it for what it is: weakness.

You've never said you didn't want to talk to her. You've responded to her texts when she has asked for something, and you've never been petty, vengeful, or belligerent towards her. She damn well KNOWS she can contact you if she wanted to talk this through, even if it was just to give you "her side" for the record. She hasn't for one reason: she is still that new person that you left.

To start reaching out now (and that's what it is) would only reaffirm in her mind her ability to manipulate you. You will be inundated with "woe is me" request for aid, financial and otherwise, going forward.

No, in all honesty you should avoid any substantive talks with her up until the time that you really don't care. In other words, when you are interested only for the sake of history of finding out why all this happened.

But contacting her when you still have a strong emotional attachment, especially during a period of missing her is only going to lead to further heartbreak for you.

Stay strong my friend.


----------



## Hijo

Shamwow said:


> Dark is starting to feel, well, dark...for me. Even if it's just to drop the dogs for her to play with for a day.


So go into the light with someone else. Literally, to hell with that wh0re. Literally. She can eat a bag of hell. Lying wench.

Edit: and they are your dogs now, not hers. Let her get cats.


----------



## Shamwow

Thanks piqued, helps me remember the other side of all this. Interesting you mentioned requests for aid, financial and otherwise. Just got a text from her saying "Can we talk bills?". First contact since Friday when she got served.

I said sure, I'd get in touch in a few hours after work, we'll figure something out. She wants to add up all the bills, each put 50/50 in the joint account to pay them. That won't be happening, exactly, but I'll pull my share. Of course, what she doesn't know is that I don't have to pay half the mortgage (it's in her name), and that will piss her off to no end, but I'll be as reasonable as I can with everything else. CCs in my name, I pay. CCs in her name, she pays (except the one that we used to be joint on until 2 weeks ago when I pulled my name, that one I'll pay half.) The utilities are generally in my name, so I'll pay half on those as well. Mortgage is the only one she'll be upset about. But like I said, my lawyer told me to forget about being nice when it comes to the details like that, because if I pay it once, she'll expect it next month too. And let's not forget I paid ALL of the bills, including last month's mortgage, right before I left. No help from her...

As far as avoiding "reaching out", luckily she contacted me first, so all I'm doing is responding politely to her valid request to discuss mutual bills going forward. I could be a jag and tell her to call my lawyer about it, but since I've already talked with him about what my responsibilities are, I'll handle it...Just gotta lay out all the bills in front of me before making the call. Otherwise she'll probably just say "Can you transfer over X to the joint?" and that would give her some control over it. Not giving up the reins on this hayride folks.


----------



## Shamwow

Hijo said:


> So go into the light with someone else. Literally, to hell with that wh0re. Literally. She can eat a bag of hell. Lying wench.
> 
> Edit: and they are your dogs now, not hers. Let her get cats.


I guess I did ask for a kick in the nutz, pretty much a direct hit.  Good points.


----------



## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> Thanks piqued, helps me remember the other side of all this. Interesting you mentioned requests for aid, financial and otherwise. Just got a text from her saying "Can we talk bills?". First contact since Friday when she got served.
> 
> I said sure, I'd get in touch in a few hours after work, we'll figure something out. She wants to add up all the bills, each put 50/50 in the joint account to pay them. That won't be happening, exactly, but I'll pull my share. Of course, what she doesn't know is that I don't have to pay half the mortgage (it's in her name), and that will piss her off to no end, but I'll be as reasonable as I can with everything else. CCs in my name, I pay. CCs in her name, she pays (except the one that we used to be joint on until 2 weeks ago when I pulled my name, that one I'll pay half.) The utilities are generally in my name, so I'll pay half on those as well. Mortgage is the only one she'll be upset about. But like I said, my lawyer told me to forget about being nice when it comes to the details like that, because if I pay it once, she'll expect it next month too. And let's not forget I paid ALL of the bills, including last month's mortgage, right before I left. No help from her...
> 
> As far as avoiding "reaching out", luckily she contacted me first, so all I'm doing is responding politely to her valid request to discuss mutual bills going forward. I could be a jag and tell her to call my lawyer about it, but since I've already talked with him about what my responsibilities are, I'll handle it...like a man.  Just gotta lay out all the bills in front of me before making the call. Otherwise she'll probably just say "Can you transfer over X to the joint?" and that would give her some control over it. Not giving up the reins on this hayride folks.



actually, you need to tell her you are cancelling any utilities in your name @ her place before the due date. Make her get them in her name and deal with the hassle. As your lawyer says, you pay once... It is tough but you need to cut the strings there asap. Also, under no circumstance are you to put $ in any joint acct. Get your share of bills sent to you and pay them. It is easy for her to withdraw the cash and blow it. She no linger cares how it may effect your credit or finances with late fees and overdrawns.


----------



## Dadof3

Ah hell, why not go for the gold and tell her all communications go to the lawyer from now on - unless she's willing to open up and start become transparent (even though you are going through D). Tell her that you would talk to the old wife about the bills - but she is gone now - replaced by a heartless wench who can reap her reward in spades.


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## SadSamIAm

You need to phone the utility companies and find out what needs to be done to get your name off of them. They may have a plan where you can get your name off and she has a certain amount of time to change to her name or they get shut off. 

I don't see why you should pay for a share of her utilities. Is she going to pay a share of yours in your apartment?


----------



## Dadof3

SadSamIAm said:


> You need to phone the utility companies and find out what needs to be done to get your name off of them. They may have a plan where you can get your name off and she has a certain amount of time to change to her name or they get shut off.
> 
> I don't see why you should pay for a share of her utilities. Is she going to pay a share of yours in your apartment?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

remind her via txt if you have to that she put you both in this position - since you had to leave because of her betrayal - she has to put her big girl panties back on and start covering her own expenses. Then add - Oh yea - since you were sharing your body with the OM - maybe you can share half of the bills with him too!

dang - I never have any good suggestions - cause they are never "silent" in perspective - oh well!

I thought this might work as you've already showed her what you are capable of (and I saw another thread where the WW complained about not affording half the bills - and the BS said - that it wasn't him that put them into that position. 

I personally don't think there is anything wrong with that type of response to your STBX.

There. I. said. it!


----------



## Chaparral

My understanding is that any debt made by a spouse during a marriage makes both husband and wife both responsible for that debt.
Even though you are not on the mortgage doesn't that make you liable? Check with lawyer so you are not blindsided when you discuss this. As a matter of fact if she incurs a debt now would not that make you liable? 
Maybe the papers being served stops new debt.
Also, in our area people put an ad in the newspaper to state that they are no longer responsible for the spouses debts.


----------



## Dadof3

So - could that be construed to mean that (unless the paper ad has been placed by Sham or his STBXW) that his rent and utilities for his new apartment are also 50/50 shared with his STBXW too? 

I totally know what you are saying - I think the purpose of my intent is to inform the STBXW that you have a backbone that is better than ever and that you aren't falling for her little helpless girl act, which may really be her trying to find an opening to talk to Sham....

Hmmmm........


----------



## SadSamIAm

It has to work both ways. If you have to pay part of her expenses, then she must have to pay part of yours. 

How much is your rent vs her house payment? 

How much more comfortable is the house compared to your apartment?

If she provides you with her bills, you should provide her with yours!!!


----------



## Chaparral

Dadof3 said:


> So - could that be construed to mean that (unless the paper ad has been placed by Sham or his STBXW) that his rent and utilities for his new apartment are also 50/50 shared with his STBXW too?
> 
> I totally know what you are saying - I think the purpose of my intent is to inform the STBXW that you have a backbone that is better than ever and that you aren't falling for her little helpless girl act, which may really be her trying to find an opening to talk to Sham....
> 
> Hmmmm........


To complicated for me. I never heard of both spouses not being on the mortgage before. Interesting points. Does that mean Sham has to give wife key to apartment? 

Up until now I was just worried she was going to try and "repo" his car.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> My understanding is that any debt made by a spouse during a marriage makes both husband and wife both responsible for that debt.
> Even though you are not on the mortgage doesn't that make you liable? Check with lawyer so you are not blindsided when you discuss this. As a matter of fact if she incurs a debt now would not that make you liable?
> Maybe the papers being served stops new debt.
> Also, in our area people put an ad in the newspaper to state that they are no longer responsible for the spouses debts.


According to lawyer, I don't have to split the mortgage. The *house* is 50% my responsibility, as in losses or gains upon selling it, but the mortgage is not my problem, as it's in her name. She's not gonna like that...but I don't like the situation she created either, so what are you gonna do?


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> To complicated for me. I never heard of both spouses not being on the mortgage before. Interesting points. Does that mean Sham has to give wife key to apartment?
> 
> Up until now I was just worried she was going to try and "repo" his car.


We were originally both on the mortgage, but refinanced about 5 years ago...I had been working for myself for a year at the time, and the bank required two years' income proof for self-employed people to be on the mortgage, didn't matter how much I made in that one year, they needed two. So we just put her name on.


----------



## F-102

When they told you that you didn't have enough proof of income to get your name into the refi, you may have felt a little like a loser who made a mistake.

Now, how does it feel?


----------



## tacoma

Sham this may sound strange coming from me as all my input so far has been to burn the **** down, go dark, and **** her ...BUT... at this point you gotta know that you`re going to need some kind of face to face closure and even if not closure it would be good to give her the opportunity to show some remorse (I know probably unlikely).

There`s been enough time for her to stew in her own thoughts and maybe even come to some actual honesty with herself.
You`ll never know until there`s a face to face.

You know you still love her or love who she was and if by some miracle she actually began seeing reality and was the remorseful guilt ridden WW she should be even R isn`t an impossibility.

DO NOT even allow a moment of Shamwow 1.0 it`s all Shamwow 2.0 now.
Don`t be an ass, just calm, cool, CONFIDENT, and yes even mice if she allows it.

Give it a shot but it`s a ****ing minefield man..be careful.


----------



## Shamwow

Just talked to W about bills. Kept it short, didn't get into any kind of arrangement or agree to anything. I did tell her that what we can't do is just add up all the bills and and each put 50% in a joint account, as 50% of the bills are not necessarily mine. And that I want to make it as easy as possible, but we won't come to a quick 5 minute solution by just cutting everything down the middle right now over the phone.

I told her I'd pay CCs in my name, she pays CCs in her name, the one CC that was joint until 2 weeks ago I'll pay half, as that debt is all mine too. She said "Well the credit cards have household stuff on them, groceries, gas, and stuff...why are those separate?" I told her that each of us had put those things on our own CCs, so those are each our own responsibility. She said, "Whatever. Fine."

Told her I'd be willing to pay half of the utilities this month, as I lived in the house for the period those bills were due for. Asked her to get them transferred over to her name, and that if I needed to call them to let me know.

I asked her to send me an email with the bills listed out, I'd look it over and get back to her with what I will do. She agreed.

At no point did she freak out, and I was George Clooney, as far as I'm concerned. I could tell she wanted to jump through the phone and strangle me though, could just sense the tension. Sucks talking about bills when you're *happily married*, let alone when you're divorcing and neither person wants to deal with the other on this stuff.

If this email interchange and temporary bill agreement goes amicably, then good. She'll have the short end of the stick, but if she can accept that without exploding and spewing venom at me then we'll handle it ourselves. If not, I'll tell her "I'm not going to argue about this, we're not enemies, this is not war, but if we can't agree to simple things like this we'll have to let our attorneys handle it, and that will just add expenses for both of us."


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> When they told you that you didn't have enough proof of income to get your name into the refi, you may have felt a little like a loser who made a mistake.
> 
> Now, how does it feel?


I totally had that feeling at the time. I even asked if I could have my name put back on it after another year had passed...they said sure, if we refi'd again.

Now...I wouldn't say it feels "good"...does feel a little dirty to me, as the fact of the matter is that it's our house, always has been. Lawyers can easily say "not your problem, don't pay it." I'm not a lawyer. So it's a little harder to be hard on stuff like that.

But I did just handle the phone call with her well. Didn't *ask* her anything, just calmly told her how things are going to generally work. And she could only say "Fine. Okay." Even though I could tell she was pissed that I didn't just call and make it easy for her..."Soooo...what's the total? 8 grand? Great! I'll put 4k over to the joint right now, thanks for mailing out the checks honey! Happy Hump Day!"


----------



## Shamwow

Just got email from her...not bad at all as far as the bills I agreed to split. She also said "We also have mortgage bills, but I do not think we should pay them as of now. 

If you get to walk away from this house then so am I. It can just rot. I bet you love that your name is not on the house! Bravo, you win."


----------



## morituri

She just couldn't resist to add that little bit of drama at the end, could she?

They say that the opposite of love is indifference, I don't know about her Sham but I could stand to lose a dollar or two saying that she misses the Old Sham and that her macho attitude is nothing more that a facade.


----------



## joe kidd

Shamwow said:


> Just got email from her...not bad at all as far as the bills I agreed to split. She also said "We also have mortgage bills, but I do not think we should pay them as of now.
> 
> If you get to walk away from this house then so am I. It can just rot. I bet you love that your name is not on the house! Bravo, you win."


You win huh? Like all this was some part of a Machiavellian plan to ditch the house?


----------



## Almostrecovered

joe kidd said:


> You win huh? Like all this was some part of a Machiavellian plan to ditch the house?


typical cheater script- Sham made her cheat so she would get screwed on the house!!


----------



## Shamwow

Agreed...yeah, really feel like I've "won" in life at the moment.


----------



## Lostouthere

Good job sham!


----------



## piqued

Shamwow said:


> Agreed...yeah, really feel like I've "won" in life at the moment.


Yea, the "you win, bravo" thing is just plain strange. I guess I wouldn't respond, but a part of me would like to reply something along the lines of "listen, I have to pay my own rent now. If you choose not to pay the mortgage that's your choice but it will effect your credit rating, thus your ability to do things going forward."

Then again, why bother? It's not your problem if she wants to make more bad choices. You do need to get off of the utilities and make sure that anything that has your name on it does indeed get paid on time. BTW, all I've ever had to do to get off the utilities is to call and say I moved out as of X date, and please send me a final bill to my new address. They usually ask if I know who the new owner is and I give them the new name. That call ends my responsibility right then and there.

She has a pretty crazy world view right now. It's as if all she was doing was "finding herself" (and who can really fault her for that) and you had to go and start screwing her over just when she was making improvements in her life. It's pure fantasy, but I'm pretty sure that's how she's viewing it.


----------



## Chaparral

"you win, bravo"

Things sure haven't worked out for her. A lot of speculation but that's all it is speculation. 

Is wife and D!rty [email protected]$tard still emailing?


----------



## Shamwow

I actually can say that they aren't emailing, at least not with our accounts. I stopped checking about a week ago, and then split my website and email off to my own account, sent her the user and pass for her account to make any changes she wants to (ummm, password). Checked last night (curiosity, sorry) and the pw is still the same. No email w D-Bag McHomewrecker. But that's how I knew she was buying a used car...also know she's telling people she's totally financially f***ed at the moment. imagine she's gotta get around to changing it soon. Maybe she hasn't just so she can show no contact w him for OM's sake? Only reason I say that is OMW asked me if they were still in contact, all I could say is they were as of a week ago (email, text and phone), but don't know since then. OM has been swearing that he hasn't, and I think OMW is contemplating R, so it matters to her. She's on the fence, but since he has confessed and shown remorse, she has more doors open to her. Wish her luck. He's a POS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Sham, i must say that you are handling this admirably. You are the model of calm, in-control temperance, and she is trying to hit you with snarky comments and childish blame-shifting. This will make you the better man during the D.


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> Sham, i must say that you are handling this admirably. You are the model of calm, in-control temperance, and she is trying to hit you with snarky comments and childish blame-shifting. This will make you the better man during the D.


Thanks, doesn't always feel like that. But as far as my interactions with my W, yeah, I feel like I'm in the driver's seat. And I have to feel good about that.

Has to confuse the hell out of her, huh?

"Who is this guy that has my fantasy world upside down all of a sudden?? I thought I had that situation under control..."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

"He's a POS."

LOL, you're being way to kind! Cut it out.


----------



## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> Agreed...yeah, really feel like I've "won" in life at the moment.


You know Sham, for what it's worth, I don't see any reason to not respond back to that. Nothing contrite or biting, just the plain fact.

Lost my best friend, my marriage & my house, as well as so much more - past, present and future. The definition of a win is "To achieve success in an effort or venture" If that's what you feel I have achieved, I am making the right choice in my life now.


As always, just my $.02

Q~


----------



## Chaparral

MrQuatto said:


> You know Sham, for what it's worth, I don't see any reason to not respond back to that. Nothing contrite or biting, just the plain fact.
> 
> Lost my best friend, my marriage & my house, as well as so much more - past, present and future. The definition of a win is "To achieve success in an effort or venture" If that's what you feel I have achieved, I am making the right choice in my life now.
> 
> 
> As always, just my $.02
> 
> Q~


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


She hasn't seen anything human out of you since you moved out, just texts or email.


----------



## Shamwow

Eh, I'll give it some time before I give her anything real...sure want to, but she clearly isn't ready to receive it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lostouthere

Nope dont give her nothing real no more.


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> You win huh? Like all this was some part of a Machiavellian plan to ditch the house?


Indeed, my plan all along...mooohahahaha...

Sigh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Indeed, my plan all along...mooohahahaha...
> 
> Sigh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


'I lost my partner for life, my faith in myself and my belief in happy ever after - yay me!'
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stonewall

MrQuatto said:


> actually, you need to tell her you are cancelling any utilities in your name @ her place before the due date. Make her get them in her name and deal with the hassle. As your lawyer says, you pay once... It is tough but you need to cut the strings there asap. Also, under no circumstance are you to put $ in any joint acct. Get your share of bills sent to you and pay them. It is easy for her to withdraw the cash and blow it. She no linger cares how it may effect your credit or finances with late fees and overdrawns.



:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## sixteen miles

You are still a rock Shamwow, great job!! I know how difficult this all is and you are holding up real well. Keep up the good work!

I had made the comment a while back that the STBXW's "fantasy train" had pulled into the station and now she has gotten off and has to face all this reality. In my opinion, the last few contacts you have had with here and her comments seem to me to be a little sampling of the pain she is now going through. She is seeing the light of how great a guy you are and while she is still working hard to put up a tough exterior she is now in my opinion in remorse as to her actions. She is in a huge mess with her finances, emotions, and now realizes what a tangled web she has woven.

Be careful Shamwow! I still will stick with my previous prediction that she will approach you at some time soon about letting you know about the remorse and pain she now feels. Then you will be at a cross road to assess the big picture; if she has changed "back" to the wife you knew and loved or if it is a facade. I maybe 100% wrong here, only time will tell. Follow your heart and your keen senses Sham, you are a smart chap and will make the right choices!


----------



## Chaparral

sixteen miles said:


> You are still a rock Shamwow, great job!! I know how difficult this all is and you are holding up real well. Keep up the good work!
> 
> I had made the comment a while back that the STBXW's "fantasy train" had pulled into the station and now she has gotten off and has to face all this reality. In my opinion, the last few contacts you have had with here and her comments seem to me to be a little sampling of the pain she is now going through. She is seeing the light of how great a guy you are and while she is still working hard to put up a tough exterior she is now in my opinion in remorse as to her actions. She is in a huge mess with her finances, emotions, and now realizes what a tangled web she has woven.
> 
> Be careful Shamwow! I still will stick with my previous prediction that she will approach you at some time soon about letting you know about the remorse and pain she now feels. Then you will be at a cross road to assess the big picture; if she has changed "back" to the wife you knew and loved or if it is a facade. I maybe 100% wrong here, only time will tell. Follow your heart and your keen senses Sham, you are a smart chap and will make the right choices!


This is what I have been thinking BUT.......... I woke up this morning with the opposite opinion. Now I'm wondering if Sham's complete indifference to her is simply reinforcing her decision to have an affair. I'm not sure indifference is the correct way to put it. Maybe passive aggressive?


Anyone had this happen? I'm guessing that I would be thinking how quickly he turned on me and how much he hates me now. Like I never knew him in the first place.

Could she have thought she could go have her little fling with a married man, deceive Sham, and come back and play like nothing happened? From what little we've seen, I have never thought they intended a long term relationship. I don't recall anything in her emails suggesting them having a future together. 

This speculatin' is given me a headache. LOL

:scratchhead:


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Love how she couldn't resist a little dig at you at the end. 

Hopefully, this convinces you that you're doing that right thing. I'm guessing your desire to see her/chat with her has abated somewhat.


----------



## MarriedTex

MrQuatto said:


> You know Sham, for what it's worth, I don't see any reason to not respond back to that. Nothing contrite or biting, just the plain fact.
> 
> Lost my best friend, my marriage & my house, as well as so much more - past, present and future. The definition of a win is "To achieve success in an effort or venture" If that's what you feel I have achieved, I am making the right choice in my life now.
> 
> 
> As always, just my $.02
> 
> Q~


I think Quatto's approach is spot on. Convey remorse of what you had lost, that there are no winners & that you're you're not looking at this as a battle where there are winners and losers. You have lost tons because of her decision to go outside the marriage. 

Always remind her that everything that is happening stems back to her decision to proceed with the affair, even after you gave her windows to re-commit to your R. You've done what you've had to do to protect yourself. But that doesn't make you feel like a winner.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> This is what I have been thinking BUT.......... I woke up this morning with the opposite opinion. Now I'm wondering if Sham's complete indifference to her is simply reinforcing her decision to have an affair. I'm not sure indifference is the correct way to put it. Maybe passive aggressive?
> 
> 
> Anyone had this happen? I'm guessing that I would be thinking how quickly he turned on me and how much he hates me now. Like I never knew him in the first place.
> 
> Could she have thought she could go have her little fling with a married man, deceive Sham, and come back and play like nothing happened? From what little we've seen, I have never thought they intended a long term relationship. I don't recall anything in her emails suggesting them having a future together.
> 
> This speculatin' is given me a headache. LOL
> 
> :scratchhead:


She may feel it was a quick turnaround on my part, at least the way I left. But she's got to eventually start realizing how hard I was trying to get her to talk about what was wrong, starting the moment she got back from the 10 week trip. For almost 2 months we were in limbo and I started self-improvement w a vengeance, and tried to crack her shell and make things "right" as best I could.
Also did some alphaing up and some 180, and she noticed changes in my behavior about 6 weeks before I left. Seemed to respond on the surface, but still no lovin' for me (no matter how creative or aggressive I tried to be to seduce her), and definitely no truth or open transparent communication. She saw me change a lot over those couple months, and the confrontations grew more serious as intense in the weeks before I left. She can't be all that surprised...the VAR left in the house recorded her initial reaction to finding me gone. I could hear her fish through the note, the texts and the papers, then she mumbled "yeah, okay fine" in a flippant tone, like "ya got me" and then poured a drink and apparently started rearranging the house (throwing away or putting away all traces of us...pictures, fridge notes, etc...trash). just guessing on the pictures, but I know the house (at least whats out in the open) was cleared of all things "us" when I came back to get my things.

Anyway, with that first mumbled reaction, and then the first text she sent me after I left ("Broke into Skype, eh? Clever.") shows that she got busted and knew it. And also knew in black and white what I said I'd do if she crossed the line w OM. She had done it anyway, so she really had to know what was coming.

As for her thinking short term or long term w the affair, texts showed ups and downs between them, but an early text said how she was "leaving husband, blah, blah, blah" and was "looking for someone like OM." he also talked about how his M was coming to an end anyway, and that they were upstairs/downstairs, and he was just waiting for her to finish her masters before leaving. And they started talking in "I love you's" all the time, making plans, etc. Guessing she was more into him than he was into her, but nonetheless, SHE was thinking long term.

They were both convincing each other that they would leave us (me and OMW) and then be together. At least that was the fantasy. Wish they had done it in that order...

Remorse? I'm sure there's some there, creeping in lately. She is a big girl, and after the shock and embarrassment of being busted hard stops biting so deep, then maybe she'll be able to face me. I've been nothing but polite in my dealings with her, say please and thank you w business stuff, and asked her how she's doing when I called yesterday about the bills. So it's not like I'm just sticking it to her and rubbing it in. She knows I'm playing the game right, and that I'm prob the same 'great guy' she got bored with, before cheating. And then, if that's the case, doesn't that just put her back to bored and unhappy, as far as her thoughts of me and our marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ManDup

Shamwow said:


> She may feel it was a quick turnaround on my part, at least the way I left. But she's got to eventually start realizing how hard I was trying to get her to talk about what was wrong, starting the moment she got back from the 10 week trip. For almost 2 months we were in limbo and I started self-improvement w a vengeance, and tried to crack her shell and make things "right" as best I could.
> Also did some alphaing up and some 180, and she noticed changes in my behavior about 6 weeks before I left. Seemed to respond on the surface, but still no lovin' for me (no matter how creative or aggressive I tried to be to seduce her), and definitely no truth or open transparent communication. She saw me change a lot over those couple months, and the confrontations grew more serious as intense in the weeks before I left. She can't be all that surprised...the VAR left in the house recorded her initial reaction to finding me gone. I could hear her fish through the note, the texts and the papers, then she mumbled "yeah, okay fine" in a flippant tone, like "ya got me" and then poured a drink and apparently started rearranging the house (throwing away or putting away all traces of us...pictures, fridge notes, etc...trash). just guessing on the pictures, but I know the house (at least whats out in the open) was cleared of all things "us" when I came back to get my things.
> 
> Anyway, with that first mumbled reaction, and then the first text she sent me after I left ("Broke into Skype, eh? Clever.") shows that she got busted and knew it. And also knew in black and white what I said I'd do if she crossed the line w OM. She had done it anyway, so she really had to know what was coming.
> 
> As for her thinking short term or long term w the affair, texts showed ups and downs between them, but an early text said how she was "leaving husband, blah, blah, blah" and was "looking for someone like OM." he also talked about how his M was coming to an end anyway, and that they were upstairs/downstairs, and he was just waiting for her to finish her masters before leaving. And they started talking in "I love you's" all the time, making plans, etc. Guessing she was more into him than he was into her, but nonetheless, SHE was thinking long term.
> 
> They were both convincing each other that they would leave us (me and OMW) and then be together. Wish they had done it in that order...
> 
> Remorse? I'm sure there's some there, creeping in lately. She is a big girl, and after the shock and embarrassment of being busted hard stops biting so deep, then maybe she'll be able to face me. I've been nothing but polite in my dealings with her, say please and thank you w business stuff, and asked her how she's doing when I called yesterday about the bills. So it's not like I'm just sticking it to her and rubbing it in. She knows I'm playing the game right, and that I'm prob the same 'great guy' she got bored with, before cheating. And then, if that's the case, doesn't that just put her back to bored and unhappy, as far as her thoughts of me and our marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was just talking with my wife about this "wing walking" behavior that some people have with regard to relationships, in regard to a friend of hers. We agreed that by not letting go of one relationship before having the next firmly in place, one limits oneself in a couple of ways. First, you are stuck with the pool of people who are willing to engage in an affair (often married themselves and of low ethical character), and secondly, you can't play the field to find the best partner. It's not like you can date around to have an affair. 

I think it stems from fear of being alone. And of course like here, as is often the case, she did end up alone at least for a time, and she may end up rejected by friends, and she endangered her ability to have honest relationships in the future. One day she'll wake up and discover that not only can she not select from a pool of admirers, but that her card's been punched and it's cats from here on out. Unwilling to commit through thick and thin (and the inevitable loss of passion that happens to every relationship), she will in the end find herself alone, as she always feared. We are punished by our sins, not for our sins.


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## Zzyzx

ManDup said:


> One day she'll wake up and discover that not only can she not select from a pool of admirers, but that her card's been punched and *it's cats from here on out*. Unwilling to commit through thick and thin (and the inevitable loss of passion that happens to every relationship), she will in the end find herself alone, as she always feared. We are punished by our sins, not for our sins.


This FTW.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> She may feel it was a quick turnaround on my part, at least the way I left. But she's got to eventually start realizing how hard I was trying to get her to talk about what was wrong, starting the moment she got back from the 10 week trip. For almost 2 months we were in limbo and I started self-improvement w a vengeance, and tried to crack her shell and make things "right" as best I could.
> Also did some alphaing up and some 180, and she noticed changes in my behavior about 6 weeks before I left. Seemed to respond on the surface, but still no lovin' for me (no matter how creative or aggressive I tried to be to seduce her), and definitely no truth or open transparent communication. She saw me change a lot over those couple months, and the confrontations grew more serious as intense in the weeks before I left. She can't be all that surprised...the VAR left in the house recorded her initial reaction to finding me gone. I could hear her fish through the note, the texts and the papers, then she mumbled "yeah, okay fine" in a flippant tone, like "ya got me" and then poured a drink and apparently started rearranging the house (throwing away or putting away all traces of us...pictures, fridge notes, etc...trash). just guessing on the pictures, but I know the house (at least whats out in the open) was cleared of all things "us" when I came back to get my things.
> 
> Anyway, with that first mumbled reaction, and then the first text she sent me after I left ("Broke into Skype, eh? Clever.") shows that she got busted and knew it. And also knew in black and white what I said I'd do if she crossed the line w OM. She had done it anyway, so she really had to know what was coming.
> 
> As for her thinking short term or long term w the affair, texts showed ups and downs between them, but an early text said how she was "leaving husband, blah, blah, blah" and was "looking for someone like OM." he also talked about how his M was coming to an end anyway, and that they were upstairs/downstairs, and he was just waiting for her to finish her masters before leaving. And they started talking in "I love you's" all the time, making plans, etc. Guessing she was more into him than he was into her, but nonetheless, SHE was thinking long term.
> 
> They were both convincing each other that they would leave us (me and OMW) and then be together. At least that was the fantasy. Wish they had done it in that order...
> 
> Remorse? I'm sure there's some there, creeping in lately. She is a big girl, and after the shock and embarrassment of being busted hard stops biting so deep, then maybe she'll be able to face me. I've been nothing but polite in my dealings with her, say please and thank you w business stuff, and asked her how she's doing when I called yesterday about the bills. So it's not like I'm just sticking it to her and rubbing it in. She knows I'm playing the game right, and that I'm prob the same 'great guy' she got bored with, before cheating. And then, if that's the case, doesn't that just put her back to bored and unhappy, as far as her thoughts of me and our marriage?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Thanks Sham that's a lot of new information.

Wish turning back the clock was an option. Of course all cheating blows my mind. Especially by people who have been cheated on themselves. Cheaters just do not realize how cruel they are being. Or, they do and are doing it intentionally. 

I know it seems unreal but it is the same or a worse hurt compared to the death of someone close to you. And this is done to someone that they truly love/loved.

It would be kinder if they just **** you. The most irritating thing is how accepted it is becoming in society. What a culture.

Good luck, keep moving forward and be strong. It will pay off in the end.

Chap


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## F-102

Yes, mandup-the 50 smelly cat analogy!


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## Soonerfan

Sounds EXACTLY like what I'm going through. You're not alone bro!! I'm literally going emotionally nuts right now and wish time would just skip about 6 months! Good to know others out there going through the exact same thing are on here to chat. Anyway, I wish you the best!


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## krismimo

chapparal said:


> This is what I have been thinking BUT.......... I woke up this morning with the opposite opinion. Now I'm wondering if Sham's complete indifference to her is simply reinforcing her decision to have an affair. I'm not sure indifference is the correct way to put it. Maybe passive aggressive?
> 
> 
> Anyone had this happen? I'm guessing that I would be thinking how quickly he turned on me and how much he hates me now. Like I never knew him in the first place.
> 
> Could she have thought she could go have her little fling with a married man, deceive Sham, and come back and play like nothing happened? From what little we've seen, I have never thought they intended a long term relationship. I don't recall anything in her emails suggesting them having a future together.
> 
> This speculatin' is given me a headache. LOL
> 
> :scratchhead:


 Interesting point, but I think Sham's ex never thought she would get caught, she wasn't suppose to get caught so now everything is in the open.


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## morituri

krismimo said:


> Interesting point, but I think Sham's ex never thought she would get caught, she wasn't suppose to get caught so now everything is in the open.


She probably believed that her business travels were the perfect way to lead a double life without her husband Sham ever finding out. The problem was that her behavior had changed so dramatically that it raised red flags to Sham. Her emotional investment with her lover made it practically impossible to service both husband and lover efficiently. Maybe she believed that Sham's love and devotion for her would keep him blind to her affair. Unfortunately for her Sham was not blind enough to realise that something was terribly wrong that he sought advice on TAM from other folks who quickly realized that she was cheating on him. Let's face it, subconsciously she wanted to get caught.


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## F-102

Sounds like the classic cake-eating fantasy. In her perfect-world scenario, Sham would never find out or even suspect, then she could have Sham, her stable home life and a safety net if things with the OM did not work out. Then she could use safety net Sham for some love and affection until she found someone new.

But Sham didn't play by the rules. Now she's lost Sham and, by the sounds of it, the OM jettisoned her when his W found out.

Sham's STBXW is FURIOUS-it wasn't supposed to work this way!


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## morituri

Yes in her typically narcissistic mind it is all Sham's fault. :crazy:


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## tacoma

I thought there were texts or Skype logs showing she was making moves to leave him?

I was under the impression she was pissed because he beat her to the punch.


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## Shamwow

tacoma said:


> I thought there were texts or Skype logs showing she was making moves to leave him?
> 
> I was under the impression she was pissed because he beat her to the punch.


Yep. She was on the fence for the last couple months, talked to work friends and some of our friends about her confusion. Some of them knew why, most I think she hid the OM part from though, in order to come out looking like the tragic victim of a "marriage gone bad", prob dust in a lot of stuff like she said about her first H, like neglect, emotional abuse, making her feel unattractive and unloved, etc. Most people didnt know the A angle except for some toxic work friends that already were engaged in EAs and PAs, some who aren't married but have open relationships w their gf's, or just cheat on them, etc. Great pool of people to be hanging around, huh? They're like some "affair club" where they could all talk and justify their bad behavior to each other and try to reinforce their flagging self esteems...try to make it "cool".

I did beat her to the punch...But when I first mentioned attorney and me leaving if she didn't open up and tell me her side of what she was doing, I also told her D was not something I "wanted", but I would have no choice. She knows I didn't just leave her to get "one up on her". I left because she had broken our vows, disrespected me and our marriage, and wouldn't stop lying to me about it or own up, even when I laid all the cards on the table.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## scione

tacoma said:


> I thought there were texts or Skype logs showing she was making moves to leave him?
> 
> I was under the impression she was pissed because he beat her to the punch.


She also has a personal financial adviser on the side. Wonder what happen to that? Did she actually hide some money while she was with the OM?


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## Shamwow

scione said:


> She also has a personal financial adviser on the side. Wonder what happen to that? Did she actually hide some money while she was with the OM?


I really don't know yet...I just looked up a number that she called the night I left, and I didn't recognize the name, but google turned up a fin advisor nearby. Speculating it was to either check on plans already made, or just to inquire about options, maybe a credit line or something? She does seem to have been broke since I left though (until she got a check earlier this week).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> in order to come out looking like the tragic victim of a "marriage gone bad", prob dust in a lot of stuff like she said about her first H, like neglect, emotional abuse, making her feel unattractive and unloved, etc. [/size]



let me guess she magnified the problems or flat out lied to make herself look like a victim- typical blameshifting


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## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> let me guess she magnified the problems or flat out lied to make herself look like a victim- typical blameshifting


Guaranteed...magnified anything bad, made anything good into something bad (being nice, dependable, etc...married beta behavior becomes "weak" and "boring" behavior). I saw that progression in their texts, where something good about me was now being construed as a bad thing...

I would love to get the full scoop of what she talked to her best gf about the week after 10-week trip. We all went camping, and they spent lots of time talking apart from us husbands (as did we, apart from them). It was like a therapy weekend, looking back.

I do know that her gf sided with me.  That pissed my W off, as I saw in a text..."Come on! second night in a row where friend sided with Sham on me leaving..."


----------



## tacoma

Shamwow said:


> I did beat her to the punch...But when I first mentioned attorney and me leaving if she didn't open up and tell me her side of what she was doing, I also told her D was not something I "wanted", but I would have no choice. She knows I didn't just leave her to get "one up on her". I left because she had broken our vows, disrespected me and our marriage, and wouldn't stop lying to me about it or own up, even when I laid all the cards on the table.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh don`t misunderstand me.
I fully realize you only "beat her to the punch" because that`s the way it worked out.

In fact I was worried about you after you posted the very first episode (after Vegas) but actually the way it went down in it`s entirety (Including that "after Vegas" confrontation) left you to pursue your own needs with a completely free moral center.

It showed you really wanted it to work and the sole reason it didn`t was entirely her fault.

Sadly her communications with you from that point on led me to believe that it was her stupid sense of self-centered pride that made it impossible to R with her.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> I would love to get the full scoop of what she talked to her best gf about the week after 10-week trip. We all went camping, and they spent lots of time talking apart from us husbands (as did we, apart from them). It was like a therapy weekend, looking back.



Then why don't you?

You say you want answers from the wife but realize it's not a good idea to talk to her that way. Could the mutual friend be the proxy to get this? I only caution you because what you hear may cause you to put blame on yourself. (but I think you know better than this) You say she sided with you as far as not leaving and you're friends with the husband, how much does she know of what truly happened? If she heard more of your side she might be willing to pony up the info. 

I guess it's a matter of what you're afraid might get back to the stbx


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> Then why don't you?
> 
> You say you want answers from the wife but realize it's not a good idea to talk to her that way. Could the mutual friend be the proxy to get this? I only caution you because what you hear may cause you to put blame on yourself. (but I think you know better than this) You say she sided with you as far as not leaving and you're friends with the husband, how much does she know of what truly happened? If she heard more of your side she might be willing to pony up the info.
> 
> I guess it's a matter of what you're afraid might get back to the stbx


Basically yeah, don't want it to get back to STBXW. Her gf and her H claim to have agreed not to be "go-betweens" for us, and talks I had with her H and talks my W had with her gf are supposedly kept separate. But...I've been married for 6 1/2 years...I know the score. We would always share info like that between us, I'm sure they did too.

And two days after I left, her gf sent me that nice email saying she respects me for how I'm handling this, so she had to know about the A, whether from my W, or from her H after I talked with him.

Tempting, but just don't want to show weakness to the one person most likely to tell my W.


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## Almostrecovered

I guess I don't view getting answers as a weakness. You're not asking her to go to the wife and ask for R, you're not asking how the friend thinks it best that you go about R. You just want some perspective to learn from so you don't make the same mistake of character assessment in a future relationship.

But far be it from me to say this is the best idea and I will yield to the more experienced people- I have never been through a divorce.


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## Almostrecovered

and by "answers" I most certainly don't mean that the reasons that she gives for cheating are valid, because there are no excuses for it, but at least you could fill in some gaps of what happened. (But I have always been an information gatherer)


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## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> and by "answers" I most certainly don't mean that the reasons that she gives for cheating are valid, because there are no excuses for it, but at least you could fill in some gaps of what happened. (But I have always been an information gatherer)


Yeah, good point. I'll think about it. Maybe she (her gf) will invite me out for drinks sometime soon, we do that once in a while anyway. Probably let her take the lead on any talk about my W though. Guess would have to see how it goes...either way, no hurry I guess.

(and lord knows I've been quite an information gatherer lately myself...)


----------



## Shamwow

Also, random thought.

Noticing how closely I stuck to the BS script, after reading so many other threads. Particularly the loss of weight. Between the time I got "that feeling" that things weren't right and the time I left, I lost 50 lbs. Some due to not being hungry and not sleeping well, but plenty due to 2 hrs a day at the gym going all out. It was like I had no choice, it was go time and I couldn't ignore it any longer. At first I think I was doing it for my W, hoping to effect a change in her view of me, but deep down I guess it was for me, and still is. Down 5 more pounds in the last 2 weeks. Granted, I had the 50+ to lose (6'2", was 250ish at my peak), but wondering what % of people in that situation automatically lose a bunch of weight? Just curious...

It seems to be one of the hidden benefits of going through that much stress, pain and confusion. Like your body knows "holy crap, you better get your a** in shape if you're gonna be able to handle what's coming!" Like it just knows what's best for you, even if the lack of sleep and appetite are hard to manage at the time. Just had dinner last night with a work colleague that I last saw 3 weeks ago...he had commented on my change at that time. Last night he walks into the restaurant, looks right at me and then keeps looking around. I had to flag him down. He said he didn't even recognize me...gotta like that. New body shape, haircut, glasses and clothes will do that I guess. He's got a pending divorce too, at 48 (and wow is his situation nuts...all kinds of mental illness going on with her, no As, just stuff that would make anyone crazy...several MCs have actually told them to separate, one even pulled him aside afterward and said he and his colleagues wouldn't protest if he called an ambulance out to their house and had her committed!). Anyway, it was interesting how the girls at the next table were very open to making conversation with us...and us with them. 

That and the mental strength one gains...as much as I am the same person I was a few months ago, I now officially feel like an adult. At 34. Kinda wrong when I see it on paper, and I certainly took care of my general duties as a man over the years (income, keeping up the house, yard, trying to do right by my W, etc), but never felt as grown up as I do now. (guess I always figured if/when we had a child I'd be forced to man up anyway...) Hopefully this sets me up for being prepared to manage a VERY strong next relationship when the time comes.

Of course I'm roller coastering, and out of the blue tonight I might feel like a loser POS with no prospects...so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Tempting to hand my W a copy of the WS script and the BS script someday, show her how predictable she was, and how "easy" it was to navigate the s**tstorm with that information from you guys, even if I didn't want to believe it. Seems so counterintuitive, yet predictable.


----------



## aug

I suppose the 'wow' in your name is appropriate.


Dont lose too much more weight.


----------



## Shamwow

aug said:


> Dont lose too much more weight.


Ha! Just need to drop a few more and then tighten up some. Give me a couple months, Sham 2.01 beta will be released.

And the appetite is back, so no worries, I won't be getting sickly thin.


----------



## Amplexor

Shamwow said:


> Give me a couple months, Sham 2.01 beta will be released.


I thought you went Alpha!!


----------



## Shamwow

Amplexor said:


> I thought you went Alpha!!


Good point...we'll just call it 2.01 then.


----------



## F-102

Or, sound like a British war machine-Sham Mk.II!


----------



## joe kidd

The weight loss happened with me.....and I didn't have it to lose. I lost 15 pounds but have gained it back. Back up to 175.


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## Shamwow

Holy crap with the triggers...

Went out tonight for "a beer" with some friends. Turned into more than a beer, and then they said, "Hey, let's go to the ____!". Never heard of the ____. Turns out it's a topless joint on one half of the place. (they apparently didn't tell me on purpose) I like dives, but this place was pretty lowbrow. Been 10 years for me. Not really where I wanted to be but said WTH. Then I started to remember my STBXW talking about going to a strip club on the road and at first she said she was just there because it was the only place open serving drinks in whatever s**t town she was in that night on the 10-wk trip. Later when things got serious (real serious, like 3 days before I left and we were talking heavy issues, sex, relationship, divorce, road stress on our M, etc), not sure why she told me, but she told me she kissed a stripper that night, "just playing around", like it was no big deal. Ummmm, maybe no big deal, IF I'M THERE and into it, instead of work friends who are mostly guys.

A few months ago she told me and a few friends she "play" motorboated some big drunk chick that was there as a guest (she showed us video of it on her phone...the video was no big deal, but I wasn't impressed, esp considering she didn't **** me the night she showed me, or any other night in the recent past, otherwise I prob would roll with the fun of it). When she showed that video we were at a restaurant, and I asked her to come to the bathroom with me (smirk), she pretended to be interested but ultimately turned me down. Old red flags = New triggers?

Just looking at the drunk party girls at that place tonight (not the dancers, the girls having fun there as a group), realized that was probably my W while on the road, at least recently...messed with my head to picture that. I looked at those girls and realized how hammered they were, and could theoretically go home with any of the people there. Not that I think there's anything inherently wrong with that scene on it own, moreso when you're SINGLE, but I was picturing all the crazy, embarrassing things my W "could've" been doing like that, not just what I know about...I was creating worse and worse scenarios in my head and it was making me crazy.

Anyway, tonight was not a good night. Eventually I had to tell my friends I wanted to leave.

Things people say have triggered me recently too...met a few friends at a local restaurant attached to a hotel last week, and one of them said something about how there are prob girls traveling for work, lonely at the bar that could be fun...I had to shake my head and say "that's not something I want to think about right now man". He realized his foot was squarely in his mouth and apologized, but still...d*mn. Same guy also said something a few days later about texting some girl some nasty stuff, and she responded positively. Now, he's single (and so was the girl he texted), but I thought, really man? Think much about what you're saying? I told him "happy for you, but not really what I want to hear." He realized what I meant and felt like an a**. Not trying to be that that guy, but holy crap, can these guys think a little before saying typical single guy s**t when I'm going through this? Love em, but think I'll put them on the side burner for a while and hang out with others who aren't bringing this crap up.

Not other peoples' fault though, can't expect them to mentally put themselves in my shoes every time we're together. Gotta deal with it on my own I guess.


I've read about triggers...tonight I got them in spades and didn't enjoy myself at all, though I tried.

Sigh. I need to move to Guam or something.


----------



## F-102

Hang in there-your going to see a lot more triggers before this is all over!


----------



## Lostouthere

I agree with F-102 Many more triggers coming. Keep your head though because your handling it pretty well. Alot of people try to bring my wife up and I just tell them I dont want to hear her name.


----------



## Almostrecovered

triggers suck


here is a good Trigger for you instead











hang in there, and realize that time will help


----------



## Shamwow

Man, having a rough day. Have tons of work to do and I just can't get started.

A friend mentioned to me that my W signed up for an online dating service. I guess I shouldn't be at all surprised she'd be trying to start dating three weeks after I left...considering *she's been dating for a few MONTHS* already. Anyone wanna sign up, take her to lunch a few times and then dump her? Argh. I'm the one that left, with good reason, and she's moving on like who gives a crap. Then again, perhaps she mentioned that to a friend so it would get back to me to p*ss me off. If that's the case, mission accomplished. I certainly didn't act mad or concerned when the friend mentioned that, just said "good for her" and changed the subject.

Do dating services even take people who are married? If not, I'm sure she had no trouble lying and just saying she's divorced. But folks, I've been gone for three weeks, gimme a break. Trying to put it out of my mind.

But it bugs that s**t out of me right now. I know she deserves support from friends and all (as a person who was a good friend and person for a long time), but lately it makes me sick when I hear about her going out and doing things with friends, and them just looking past what she did and continuing on. Granted, I'm doing the same thing...but actively dating? I mean, she is 37 and may be feeling like the clock is ticking a bit, but talk about being in a rush.

So I'm going to watch the ballgame this afternoon with one of my "strong" friends...not like the guys I went out with last night. Hope I can keep it together. This sucks...

That said, tonight I'm going to see a female friend that I've known for years, and work with on occasion. Just catching up, of course, (seriously), but curious to see what it's like to be out with an attractive female in public by myself that isn't my W or one of her close friends.

Rant complete. Hope everyone's having as good a weekend as possible...


----------



## joe kidd

Sham all that does is reinforce the fact that you made the right decision.


----------



## Lostouthere

Hey man sorry to hear your having a ruff day. Man think about she was already dating and doing the stuff before you left. You had a very good reason to leave so dont knock yourself over that. That would bug the heck out of me too but man try as best as you can to put it out of your mind. 

I know mine is doing lord who knows but its not my problem no more. Now I got to learn to look at it that this person might have done me a favor because I found out she was this weak very early on in the marriage instead of later. 

If you cant keep it together tonight just let it roll out. Hope you have fun with your friend tonight that will be good for you. Maybe it will keep your mind off your stbxw for a while. 

Man my wife has friends and family watch the kids why she goes out and doew whatever and the people I thought would not go for this have really suprised me. People that are suppose to be church going people etc are aiding her in the affair but hey nothing I can do about it. Keep your head up


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Man, having a rough day. Have tons of work to do and I just can't get started.
> 
> A friend mentioned to me that my W signed up for an online dating service. I guess I shouldn't be at all surprised she'd be trying to start dating three weeks after I left...considering *she's been dating for a few MONTHS* already. Anyone wanna sign up, take her to lunch a few times and then dump her? Argh. I'm the one that left, with good reason, and she's moving on like who gives a crap. Then again, perhaps she mentioned that to a friend so it would get back to me to p*ss me off. If that's the case, mission accomplished. I certainly didn't act mad or concerned when the friend mentioned that, just said "good for her" and changed the subject.
> 
> Do dating services even take people who are married? If not, I'm sure she had no trouble lying and just saying she's divorced. But folks, I've been gone for three weeks, gimme a break. Trying to put it out of my mind.
> 
> But it bugs that s**t out of me right now. I know she deserves support from friends and all (as a person who was a good friend and person for a long time), but lately it makes me sick when I hear about her going out and doing things with friends, and them just looking past what she did and continuing on. Granted, I'm doing the same thing...but actively dating? I mean, she is 37 and may be feeling like the clock is ticking a bit, but talk about being in a rush.
> 
> So I'm going to watch the ballgame this afternoon with one of my "strong" friends...not like the guys I went out with last night. Hope I can keep it together. This sucks...
> 
> That said, tonight I'm going to see a female friend that I've known for years, and work with on occasion. Just catching up, of course, (seriously), but curious to see what it's like to be out with an attractive female in public by myself that isn't my W or one of her close friends.
> 
> Rant complete. Hope everyone's having as good a weekend as possible...


Imagine how the OM must feel! He was only done with her what? A week ago! Sorry just wonder if you realized she's been dumped twice in 3 weeks. Sucks to be her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> Man, having a rough day. Have tons of work to do and I just can't get started.
> 
> A friend mentioned to me that my W signed up for an online dating service. I guess I shouldn't be at all surprised she'd be trying to start dating three weeks after I left...considering *she's been dating for a few MONTHS* already. Anyone wanna sign up, take her to lunch a few times and then dump her? Argh. I'm the one that left, with good reason, and she's moving on like who gives a crap. Then again, perhaps she mentioned that to a friend so it would get back to me to p*ss me off. If that's the case, mission accomplished. I certainly didn't act mad or concerned when the friend mentioned that, just said "good for her" and changed the subject.
> 
> Do dating services even take people who are married? If not, I'm sure she had no trouble lying and just saying she's divorced. But folks, I've been gone for three weeks, gimme a break. Trying to put it out of my mind.
> 
> But it bugs that s**t out of me right now. I know she deserves support from friends and all (as a person who was a good friend and person for a long time), but lately it makes me sick when I hear about her going out and doing things with friends, and them just looking past what she did and continuing on. Granted, I'm doing the same thing...but actively dating? I mean, she is 37 and may be feeling like the clock is ticking a bit, but talk about being in a rush.
> 
> So I'm going to watch the ballgame this afternoon with one of my "strong" friends...not like the guys I went out with last night. Hope I can keep it together. This sucks...
> 
> That said, tonight I'm going to see a female friend that I've known for years, and work with on occasion. Just catching up, of course, (seriously), but curious to see what it's like to be out with an attractive female in public by myself that isn't my W or one of her close friends.
> 
> Rant complete. Hope everyone's having as good a weekend as possible...


I know it doesn't feel like it right now, but this is absolute victory. Her little plan of stringing along Shamwow until she could ride off in the sunset with Prince ********* has definitely gone down in flames. Now, she can't even find anybody to date from her work circle and is left to pick from the leftover bin on the dating service. 

Small consolation now, I know. But you ruined her little lifeplan. Now, she's scrambling to pick up the pieces, trying to re-gain validation by latching onto any warm online pulse to date. Meanwhile, you're doing things the right way, slowly getting yourself re-acquainted to the scene of talking to different women to find the match right for you. It will take time, but your approach will be far more fruitful in the long run.

The dating service tells everybody that she "has moved on from Shamwow." Guess what, you knew that a month ago when you went through all those texts. No new news here except for that she's following a loser's path in a pitiful attempt to put her life back together.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Will she put two time divorcee on her profile or lie? At this point most men would be very wary after hearing two time loser, she'll be relegated to being just a piece of ass most likely
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> Imagine how the OM must feel! He was only done with her what? A week ago! Sorry just wonder if you realized she's been dumped twice in 3 weeks. Sucks to be her!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great point...does suck to be her. Twice in 3 weeks...


----------



## NotLikeYou

In answer to your question, I know that Match dot com does allow married people on it. I have an almost-divorced buddy that is on it. It was really weird though. We were going out to lunch the other day, he gets a phone call, looks at it, sends it to voicemail. I asked him who it was, he tells me it is a lady he has been talking to on Match. 

He then proceeded to explain that this particular lady was telling him how she needed money, and could he help her with such and such bill- except that he hasn't actually met her in person and been out on a date with her yet! And then he said that she wasn't the only girl trying to do this with him.

That's the environment your STBX is putting herself into. If you have a reliable grapevine back to her, you might pass along the suggestion that she could find some partners of similar moral values to her on Craigslist.....


----------



## morituri

Sounds like she's desperate but mostly pathetic.


----------



## MrQuatto

morituri said:


> Sounds like she's desperate but mostly pathetic.


:iagree: It also could be her searching for a hot body to show off as her "Look what I got THIS time" arm candy. 

I forget who has it on their sig but I recall a line that read "Best thing you can do is to grant their wish and let the "Other" one have them" or something like that

Q~


----------



## F-102

Think of it, Sham. Her on a dating site says to me that:

1) She is desperate to fill in the huge hole you left
2) She probably isn't being too discriminating-let the parade of losers, drug addicts, swindlers and lowlifes commence
3) she more than likely is, indeed, looking for arm candy to make you jealous (see points #1 and #2, along with my theory that she still thinks you will forgive her and go crawling back to her
4) The affair with Dou**ebag McGee has exploded and crashed like the Hindenburg
5) You are handling this in a great way. You will find someone worthy of your time and care, while she, well, (see points #1 and #2)

You know, as an aside, I was listening to the Police last night, and that song "Wrapped Around Your Finger" reminded me of you and your story.

"You consider me the young apprentice,
Caught between the Scylla and Charybdis...

...Devil and the deep blue sea behind me,
Vanish in the air-you'll never find me.
I will turn your face to alabaster,
When you find your servant is your master."


----------



## 52flower

Sham, you've been through an amazing array of changes, all of which you have handled with dignity, class, and fairness. Everything these supporters have said to help guide and back you are awesome words of wisdom and encouragement. But I think I know how you feel. In spite of "winning", it sometimes catches you off guard and in spite of filling your time with friends & fun, you can't ignore the empty feeling inside. The emotional side needs to catch up with all that has happened. All of the unbelievable acts of betrayal and inhumane actions are sinking in and it takes time to wade through and make sense of where to put it all. I'm still sorting through my betrayals but I do know it takes time as well as conscious effort. You have done a terrific job so try to accept that there will be times of emptiness, disbelief, and sadness for what once was. But now it's about you so try and enjoy & be proud of the person you are.


----------



## Shamwow

Quick scan for opinions...

W just texted me "Can I have the pups for a few days?"

I know I mentioned here last week that I was thinking of offering that anyway. I heard differing thoughts on the matter. I think I'd like to do it though, as it may make communication easier from here on out in the divorce, plus I hoped she missed the dogs...we treated them like our children for 7 years, I know she loved them.

I don't want to start making concessions to control here either. 

Does it really matter so much on something like this? How much control do I need? They've been her dogs for 7 years too, up until last Wednesday.

Hmmm...


----------



## Dadof3

Sham - shes making the first move for R - in my opinion.

I hate to say this as I don't equate dogs and humans on equal terms - however, if you think about this - the dogs are the "kids" in your marriage.

I think this is very interesting. Careful here. Show her who's in charge.

If you don't have the dogs for a few days, imagine the fun you can have while she has them.

They are the only things you two have in common at this point, but something that might allow her to reconnect to the new Sham.


----------



## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> Quick scan for opinions...
> 
> W just texted me "Can I have the pups for a few days?"
> 
> I know I mentioned here last week that I was thinking of offering that anyway. I heard differing thoughts on the matter. I think I'd like to do it though, as it may make communication easier from here on out in the divorce, plus I hoped she missed the dogs...we treated them like our children for 7 years, I know she loved them.
> 
> I don't want to start making concessions to control here either.
> 
> Does it really matter so much on something like this? How much control do I need? They've been her dogs for 7 years too, up until last Wednesday.
> 
> Hmmm...


I wouldn't worry about giving her the dogs as much as I would be on how the turn overs are handled. She may play off her control card in ways like, 

she said she would take them for the weekend and calls you saturday at 6 pm saying you need to get them by 8 pm

or

being late for the pick up or drop off or not showing up at all.

I only say this as they could be means for her to judge if she still has some ability to manipulate you and/ or call the shots. 

As always, just my $.02 opinion

Q~


----------



## Shamwow

The dogs were the first way she got me to respond in the week after I left too...scratching head here.


----------



## Dadof3

How u handle this will determine how quick the D happens (IMHO). She has an opening to start messing with your feelings and your 180. 

If you are absolute about the D - then u better arrange an intermediary, or even a neutral exchange location for the dogs. Otherwise, be prepared for the R games to begin - and she's gonna mess with your emotions in a way you probably aren't ready to handle yet, so be careful.


----------



## Dadof3

You could stay dark too, that might work too...... hmmm.....

Never ask someone with an Adaptive personality type for an opinion.....


----------



## adv

Sham, first I would like to say that I wish I had handled my situation nearly as good and self-controlled as you did. Very well done on keeping you dignity, self-respect, and cool though out that very trying period. After a while, you grow accustomed to not having your other half there when you need them so keep doing what you're doing. It does get easier with time.

Secondly, about the dogs; I don't know your wife but I would worry that possession is 9/10ths of the law. If you give them to her, will they be returned or will she use them to increase communication or just make you jump through hoops trying to get them back.


----------



## Shamwow

adv said:


> Secondly, about the dogs; I don't know your wife but I would worry that possession is 9/10ths of the law. If you give them to her, will they be returned or will she use them to increase communication or just make you jump through hoops trying to get them back.


Oh, I'll get them back if she plays games like that. Presuming she just wants to see them and play for a few days once in a while. Just seems reasonable.


----------



## adv

Shamwow said:


> Oh, I'll get them back if she plays games like that. Presuming she just wants to see them and play for a few days once in a while. Just seems reasonable.


Then considering how well you have handled the rest of the situation, I say go with your gut feeling. It seems to have guided pretty well so far.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> How u handle this will determine how quick the D happens (IMHO). She has an opening to start messing with your feelings and your 180.
> 
> If you are absolute about the D - then u better arrange an intermediary, or even a neutral exchange location for the dogs. Otherwise, be prepared for the R games to begin - and she's gonna mess with your emotions in a way you probably aren't ready to handle yet, so be careful.


I am sure on the D as I have no reason from her not to be. You're right, this may open a Pandora's box of me having to deal with a lot of crap and confusing situations that I've been able to avoid this far...especially if she shows me some actual remorse. I've mentioned here recently that I really just find myself wanting her to acknowledge her actions as wrong, even a little bit. Something from her as simple as "Ummm...Sorry 'bout that" would be light years ahead of where we are in communication these days. So maybe this will open a door for that conversation to happen at some point. Or maybe she just wants to play with the dogs from time to time. No way to know without finding out.


----------



## Shamwow

Well, went ahead and texted back: "Sure...how about I drop them off Tues around 11am and pick them up Fri afternoon."

Gives her a few days with the dogs, but I set the schedule. There was no question mark at the end.

Anyway, we shall see.

I realize how trivial this may seem...but we haven't seen each other face to face since the night I left over 3 weeks ago, and have only talked on the phone twice, both times all business and less than 5 minutes. Going dark got easy because it takes most of the variables off the table, wondering how an encounter would even go right now, even something as casual as dropping off dogs w their food and gear, saying "Hey", petting the pups, and then leaving.


----------



## Shamwow

FYI - more contact from the OMW. I had mentioned the MB site forums for some insight (as many of you suggested), and she said she has checked them out. Just curious if anyone sees a new thread over there that looks familiar. Or in the near future.

She's still considering R, and looking to confirm any new potential lies OM may be feeding her about all kinds of details. Sorry to say, he's had plenty of practice lying to her these last few months (as my W did), so all I can do is suggest she tread very carefully, because I certainly am.


----------



## Shamwow

W's response to my offer to bring over the dogs for a couple days: "K Thx"

So I guess it's on for Tuesday am.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> W's response to my offer to bring over the dogs for a couple days: "K Thx"
> 
> So I guess it's on for Tuesday am.


You'll be fine. Show her the new you. Just don't show her your new boxing skills. LOL


----------



## sixteen miles

Here it is Shamwow, I feel a remorse and even a potential "weeping" session coming! I always had that thought that it was coming as I had mentioned before. I maybe wrong but we shall see.

I think the doggies will be a common thread to bind you both. She wants to chat and it maybe legit that she wants to see the dogs, I am sure she loves them too, but she wants to see you also.

Tread carefully, keep an open and cautious mind and be very aware when you meet. It could be very interesting! Good Luck we are all with you.


----------



## piqued

sixteen miles said:


> Here it is Shamwow, I feel a remorse and even a potential "weeping" session coming! I always had that thought that it was coming as I had mentioned before. I maybe wrong but we shall see.
> 
> I think the doggies will be a common thread to bind you both. She wants to chat and it maybe legit that she wants to see the dogs, I am sure she loves them too, but she wants to see you also.
> 
> Tread carefully, keep an open and cautious mind and be very aware when you meet. It could be very interesting! Good Luck we are all with you.



This, OR, she wants to humanize herself again to you in order to extract more favors/advantage down the road.

So, just be on the lookout for that as well. While she might have been a great wife for a long time, one thing she has proven beyond a doubt these past several months is that she's very deceitful and manipulative. And, so far as we know, has no sincere remoarse about anything to date.

Either way, you may find yourself getting trapped. So, just be very careful and recognize that both of these possibilities aren't necessarily good right now.


----------



## Dadof3

piqued said:


> This, OR, she wants to humanize herself again to you in order to extract more favors/advantage down the road.
> 
> So, just be on the lookout for that as well. While she might have been a great wife for a long time, one thing she has proven beyond a doubt these past several months is that she's very deceitful and manipulative. And, so far as we know, has no sincere remoarse about anything to date.
> 
> Either way, you may find yourself getting trapped. So, just be very careful and recognize that both of these possibilities aren't necessarily good right now.


Thats why a plan A, B, and C exit strategies need to be developed for this visit, have it planned in advance and be prepared to execute.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Thats why a plan A, B, and C exit strategies need to be developed for this visit, have it planned in advance and be prepared to execute.


I'm with you. Any suggestions?

I do have doctor's appt at noon, so can't be there more than 20 mins anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> I'm with you. Any suggestions?
> 
> I do have doctor's appt at noon, so can't be there more than 20 mins anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Be ready for an argument - (your Dr appt), be ready to be seduced (maybe a friend call at a point in time if they dont hear from you, etc) - just something to help u not get sucked in. 

If you go in there defenseless, she could probably take u down - at least temporarily.


----------



## Cypress

Sham,

I would tell her you have a last minute doctor's appointment. Tell her your late. Drop the dogs off and go. 

You could ask her if the OM was using condoms. Just to get her wondering what the appointment was for. :ezpi_wink1:

Cypress


----------



## Dadof3

Cypress said:


> Sham,
> 
> I would tell her you have a last minute doctor's appointment. Tell her your late. Drop the dogs off and go.
> 
> You could ask her if the OM was using condoms. Just to get her wondering what the appointment was for. :ezpi_wink1:
> 
> Cypress


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Chaparral

Dadof3 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:


I disagree. For one thing she knows Sham knows they didn't use condoms.

Be kind, respectful and business like. Don't put her on the defensive. You won't learn anything with your mouth open. Let her do the talking unless she becomes disrespectful then hold up your hand and walk.

Should be very interesting and you will be fine.

Be cool.


----------



## Mike11

chapparal said:


> I disagree. For one thing she knows Sham knows they didn't use condoms.
> 
> Be kind, respectful and business like. Don't put her on the defensive. You won't learn anything with your mouth open. Let her do the talking unless she becomes disrespectful then hold up your hand and walk.
> 
> Should be very interesting and you will be fine.
> 
> Be cool.


:smthumbup::iagree:


----------



## tacoma

chapparal said:


> I disagree. For one thing she knows Sham knows they didn't use condoms.
> 
> Be kind, respectful and business like. Don't put her on the defensive. You won't learn anything with your mouth open. Let her do the talking unless she becomes disrespectful then hold up your hand and walk.
> 
> Should be very interesting and you will be fine.
> 
> Be cool.


:iagree:

Me too.


----------



## Cypress

Sham,

I hope I did not sound uncaring. I was trying to add some humor. Mike11 and Tacoma are right, it would be better if she did the talking. 

Hang tough.

Cypress


----------



## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> I'm with you. Any suggestions?
> 
> I do have doctor's appt at noon, so can't be there more than 20 mins anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The biggest danger here for you is if she tries to crack open door for R when you are not ready to set terms of re-engagement.

Rehearse some lines that demonstrate that you were greatly hurt by her actions, that the pending divorce is the result of her actions and that any hope of reconciliation are slim but would take lengthy and sustained efforts on her side to repair the relationship that SHE broke.

Not likely to happen, certainly. It's not inconceivable that R could get re-ignited. But - given her behavior - it would have to be totally and completely on your terms.


----------



## sixteen miles

This meeting will be very interesting but in my opinion the key will be for Sham to be the "new improved" bullet proof Sham that the W has seen in the last few weeks. It is clearly driving her crazy.

A respectful, polite and professional approach by Sham will do much to reinforce that image. A "smart guy" or poor attitude approach will not serve any purpose, and would be counter productive. She is going to have to be the one to bring up R, not Sham, and any conversation towards that will directed only by Sham.

By his cool, collected past actions, Sham has placed himself in the drivers seat. No need to change that at this point in the game. Great job by Shamwow!


----------



## washburn

Just sit in the car and let her come out and get the dogs. Tell her sorry..ur in a hurry, gotta go to the doc. So no worries, and she cant take ur car (if that is still of some concern)


----------



## Dadof3

I was sitting here thinking - hmm... what could she be thinking with this....

My thoughts today would be that she hasn't heard from Sham much at all, not even through the grapevine for the most part... what better way to initiate a conversation with Sham than through the one thing that they both love?

You are doing awesome Sham, but, as I and others have stated before, stay in control of yourself and have at least 1 backup plan if things get out of control. No use backsliding on your path forward.

Show her whose da boss!


----------



## alphaomega

Jeesh. Just let her see th dogs. Not everything is a conspiracy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sod

Agreed Alpha. Nothing wrong with being prepared for a "game" but it doesnt mean you have to play


----------



## aug

alphaomega said:


> Jeesh. Just let her see th dogs. Not everything is a conspiracy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Hmmm, I dont know about that. It might be.


----------



## Shamwow

alphaomega said:


> Jeesh. Just let her see th dogs. Not everything is a conspiracy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, everything from her to me essentially has been since June. 

But you make a good point, I presume she probably misses the dogs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

Without obsessing about it, just quickly drop them off and be prepared in case of onslaught or manipulation. You'll be fine.

Just don't give in to anything. But I agree with the decision to let her see them.


----------



## girlfromipanema

It’s been awhile since I’ve posted, but I’ve been following along. You’re handling everything with such class. I wish, when you’re feeling down, you could see a crystal ball with a glimpse of your happy future – I’m certain you will find something beyond your imagination.

With regard to your STBXW’s request to see the dogs… I think it’s classy of you to offer to bring them to her, but something about it bothers me. Almost as if she feels she can snap her fingers and you’ll do just as she demands. I’m not into game playing, but I just want her to know she doesn’t have any power over you… but I think she thinks she does, make sense? I’m tired and don’t feel very articulate today.


----------



## Dadof3

Yea, maybe keep her off guard a bit - like be an hour early / late for dropping the dogs off - change the agreement for when you will pick them up - or just show up a day early to get them.

Something that keeps her off keel.


----------



## WhereAmI

Dadof3 said:


> Yea, maybe keep her off guard a bit - like be an hour early / late for dropping the dogs off - change the agreement for when you will pick them up - or just show up a day early to get them.
> 
> Something that keeps her off keel.


I wouldn't break the agreement because that would give her an opening to do the same. My worry is that she could use the pups as a bargaining chip, refusing to give them back. IMO, her recent dating profile was put up to anger Sham and tilt the control her way. I worry that this could be a last ditch effort to do the same. 

You have it in writing or email that she wanted you to become owner of the dogs, right Sham? Even then you may have to go to court to enforce that, but it's a good start. I hope it really is just a visit because she misses them. Bring your VAR just in case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedTex

WhereAmI said:


> I wouldn't break the agreement because that would give her an opening to do the same. My worry is that she could use the pups as a bargaining chip, refusing to give them back. IMO, her recent dating profile was put up to anger Sham and tilt the control her way. I worry that this could be a last ditch effort to do the same.
> 
> You have it in writing or email that she wanted you to become owner of the dogs, right Sham? Even then you may have to go to court to enforce that, but it's a good start. I hope it really is just a visit because she misses them. Bring your VAR just in case.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, might be good to get her to verbally agree to your pick-up time and capture that acknowledgement on VAR. Can't be too careful.


----------



## Chaparral

alphaomega said:


> Jeesh. Just let her see th dogs. Not everything is a conspiracy.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::smthumbup::rofl:


----------



## Shaggy

Sham, you've were right and strong to go dark, but you don't want it too seem like you are afraid to see her or speak with her. She isn't they bogey man, or the devel. She is selfish woman who crossed boundaries willingly and got caught.

Ignore all this over thinking and conspiracy talk. Facing her and being cold and business like and not accepting any drama is the alpha way, and your way. But you have to face her. You have come too faR to start hiding behind lame excuses. When you ave had enough talk with her, just end it and leave. Alpha makes do not make excuses, nor do they explain and justify their choices. They simply do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

OMW had asked for info on some of the texts (the ones from July and early Aug), I had to read some to do so.

Also got a text from my STBXW today saying "took the tax sh*t, eh? Let's go there."

Don't think I'll have any trouble being all business tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## girlfromipanema

I


Shamwow said:


> OMW had asked for info on some of the texts (the ones from July and early Aug), I had to read some to do so.
> 
> Also got a text from my STBXW today saying "took the tax sh*t, eh? Let's go there."
> 
> Don't think I'll have any trouble being all business tomorrow.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is such a *****. Stay classy, Shamwow. 

Poor OMW. I really feel for both of you. I can't take credit for this, but saw this quote and, boy, is it true: "infidelity ain't for sissies".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

with that being said - theres a damned good chance there is a conspiracy here!  Dang - theres a conspiracy everywhere!

Time to get out the tiger blood....

Just want Sham to prepare. Scenario 2 could just play out with a ploy to get Sham there with the dogs. Come on!


----------



## Shamwow

Well, either way if that's her "plan", it will work tomorrow, ever so briefly, because I'm not going to cancel. Don't want to face her when she's still in doppelgänger mode, but I have to get used to it I guess, as I'll have to see her periodically until the D processes. Agree I don't want her (or anyone for that matter) to think I fear her. I suppose I fear "seeing" her, but don't fear "her". She should fear seeing me, tbh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Sham, are you going to the house to drop off the dogs?

If it was me, I'd go to a neutral location, bring a friend and have him STAY IN THE CAR while you handed the dogs to her.

The reason I say is that the house should now be considered enemy territory, and she could goad you into an argument that could get physical. 

And my sister's friend was going thru a D, and she up her STBXH in a parking lot-he got out of the car to give her the rest of her mail, and as he was handing it to her, he heard screeching tires and turned around to see that her brother had taken off with it. When he turned to scream WTF to his STBX, she dove back in her car and took off too, leaving him standing there alone and no way to get home. He eventually got the car back, after weeks of legal hassles and runarounds by cops, and her brother had totalled it.


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## Almostrecovered

Prepare for all possibilities- Wear Kevlar and a helmet, bring spice cookies, condoms, an electric generator, smoke bombs, a canteen and duct tape
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kenmoore14217

May not be a bad idea to have a VAR with you when you see her.


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## Shamwow

So W just left me a voicemail (would have answered but I was in the shower)...saying she's meeting with her lawyer in the morning, but wants to talk about why we need lawyers involved, money, etc. she wants to do mediator and do the divorce on our own. Of course I can't see that as a good option because she can't even bring herself to see me, let alone negotiate terms of something so serious (see below). So now I have to prep for that tonight too...please throw me reasons why I shouldn't entertain te no lawyer option...or the other point of view too if it's worth thinking about. It would give up control, I know that. The mediator wants to look out for all parties, my lawyer wants to look out for me. But with no kids and no substantial fortune there is a bit of sense to it. I just don't want to give her the easy out she envisioned in June when she started barking privately to friends and her family about her wanting to leave ME while she was lying to my face and carrying on an affair the whole time (which I had to figure out on my own). Am I being at all selfish here, or is she just prying her way into my conscience here based on the "good old days"?

Also said she'll be emailing later on what she wants to do about the "transfer" of the dogs tomorrow. Hmmm, she still can't face me.

Feel like telling her that no matter how she looks at things right now, she put us in this position, and if she can't talk to me face to face there's no reason for an amicable divorce or an amicable sharing of the dogs in the meantime (the dogs she told me to take last week). That I WANT this to be as easy as possible, but with her actions, before and after I left, it's impossible right now for me to not look out for myself first from here on out.

Because let's face it, SHE hasn't been.

Just want to stop fighting but not give in on such big things, after all she's done to make this happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sod

Honestly, mediation is a good option to be done with it. Ultimately, they have no agenda other than to make sure you two agree with the outcome and that their is compromise on both sides. Even if you both use lawyers, it will have the same outcome as compromise on both sides is required.

I would recommend you consider it and it doesnt mean you cant request a legal review on any agreement prior to signatures. Of course for that to work, you have to be in the same room and remain civil.


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## Cypress

Sham,

You could tell her that you have paid your retainer already and that he's a great lawyer. And since you regard his opinion highly, she should get a lawyer too. Lawyers are expensive, but they will save money in the long run and reduce the fighting that can occur in mediation. You could tell her that it is more likely you could end this as friends, if lawyers do the negotiating. You may have no interest in having her as a friend afterwards, but the possibility may get her to be more civil.

Cypress


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## girlfromipanema

I don't see how you could go the non-lawyer route when she keeps throwing out threats of "war" and "let's go there" over something as innocuous as taking the tax records. She doesn't know how to behave like a rational human being. I like the way Cypress worded it and would suggest going with that. Or asking her why/how you can trust her with her continued threats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

Consider that she was meeting with a financial advisor and perhaps has some money hidden that a mediator won't go searching for, you would know better than I if it would be anything substantial
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BurntLimey

Sham, I had to register as i have been following your posts since accidentally stumbling over them the other day, and wanted to tell you that I know what your going through, as your experience is scarily identical to what happened to me nearly two years ago, just replace 2 puppies with 2 kids and other than that its the same.

For what its worth, and its only my opinion, it sounds like your wife is starting to make a play to getting you back. Once reality sunk it with my other half, and leading up to us eventually talking like civilised human beings, she was still attacking me and extending a olive branch in equal measures.
It was almost like she desperately wanted to talk and make it work, but at the same time was still on the offensive in case she needed to cut and run again.
I think you need to be prepared to meet both of your wife's personalities as she probably doesn't know herself how to handle the situation, and I honestly believe that if you just keep quiet and listen, let her talk, you will now get the answers you have been looking for.

Also I would suggest that maybe the not having a lawyer email could be for 2 reasons. 1, she is broke. 2, and I think this the more likely, she doesn't want a divorce. This is her way of stalling while she tries to find out if there can be a reconciliation.

Ultimately the choice is yours, and it doesn't matter what people say "i would dump her right away", "divorce and never look back", lets face it who doesn't say that, but most people are lucky enough never to have to experience making that decision.

For the record I did make that decision, I choose to give my wife another chance, because people do f*** up, no one is perfect. Do I regret it, yes somedays I wonder if i made the right decision, but I know the person my wife became temporarily wasn't the woman I married, and it came down to wanting the wife back that I know and love. Granted it hasn't been easy, but what is??

Sorry to go on, its 3am here so easy to ramble away. I wish you the best of luck however it goes, only you can decide what is right for you.


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## MrQuatto

Almostrecovered said:


> Consider that she was meeting with a financial advisor and perhaps has some money hidden that a mediator won't go searching for, you would know better than I if it would be anything substantial
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: And she has a long history of being a manipulator. I would be very cautious or you could end up getting the shaft. 

Q~


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## golfergirl

I'd keep with the lawyer unless you absolutely can't afford it. I wouldn't trust her farther than I could throw her.
I think the dog thing is bs to try and open lines of communication. Look how much she's texting since you agreed to drop dogs. Kind of testing the waters to start yapping again. She's not in control and she can't stand it! 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mike11

BurntLimey said:


> Sham, I had to register as i have been following your posts since accidentally stumbling over them the other day, and wanted to tell you that I know what your going through, as your experience is scarily identical to what happened to me nearly two years ago, just replace 2 puppies with 2 kids and other than that its the same.
> 
> For what its worth, and its only my opinion, it sounds like your wife is starting to make a play to getting you back. Once reality sunk it with my other half, and leading up to us eventually talking like civilised human beings, she was still attacking me and extending a olive branch in equal measures.
> It was almost like she desperately wanted to talk and make it work, but at the same time was still on the offensive in case she needed to cut and run again.
> I think you need to be prepared to meet both of your wife's personalities as she probably doesn't know herself how to handle the situation, and I honestly believe that if you just keep quiet and listen, let her talk, you will now get the answers you have been looking for.
> 
> Also I would suggest that maybe the not having a lawyer email could be for 2 reasons. 1, she is broke. 2, and I think this the more likely, she doesn't want a divorce. This is her way of stalling while she tries to find out if there can be a reconciliation.
> 
> Ultimately the choice is yours, and it doesn't matter what people say "i would dump her right away", "divorce and never look back", lets face it who doesn't say that, but most people are lucky enough never to have to experience making that decision.
> 
> For the record I did make that decision, I choose to give my wife another chance, because people do f*** up, no one is perfect. Do I regret it, yes somedays I wonder if i made the right decision, but I know the person my wife became temporarily wasn't the woman I married, and it came down to wanting the wife back that I know and love. Granted it hasn't been easy, but what is??
> 
> Sorry to go on, its 3am here so easy to ramble away. I wish you the best of luck however it goes, only you can decide what is right for you.


:smthumbup::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> So W just left me a voicemail (would have answered but I was in the shower)...saying she's meeting with her lawyer in the morning, but wants to talk about why we need lawyers involved, money, etc. she wants to do mediator and do the divorce on our own. Of course I can't see that as a good option because she can't even bring herself to see me, let alone negotiate terms of something so serious (see below). So now I have to prep for that tonight too...please throw me reasons why I shouldn't entertain te no lawyer option...or the other point of view too if it's worth thinking about. It would give up control, I know that. The mediator wants to look out for all parties, my lawyer wants to look out for me. But with no kids and no substantial fortune there is a bit of sense to it. I just don't want to give her the easy out she envisioned in June when she started barking privately to friends and her family about her wanting to leave ME while she was lying to my face and carrying on an affair the whole time (which I had to figure out on my own). Am I being at all selfish here, or is she just prying her way into my conscience here based on the "good old days"?
> 
> Also said she'll be emailing later on what she wants to do about the "transfer" of the dogs tomorrow. Hmmm, she still can't face me.
> 
> Feel like telling her that no matter how she looks at things right now, she put us in this position, and if she can't talk to me face to face there's no reason for an amicable divorce or an amicable sharing of the dogs in the meantime (the dogs she told me to take last week). That I WANT this to be as easy as possible, but with her actions, before and after I left, it's impossible right now for me to not look out for myself first from here on out.
> 
> Because let's face it, SHE hasn't been.
> 
> Just want to stop fighting but not give in on such big things, after all she's done to make this happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If your gut is telling you to stay away from mediation, then stay away. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect you would have to agree to mediation for it to take place.

If she complains about the cost, agree with her. "Yes, it would have been much better for me financially, too, if I didn't have a wife who cheated on me."


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## Shaggy

Sham you want a lawyer because you can't trust her. 

She squirreled away money as part of her plan to ditch you. I bet the 
call to the financial planner was to check if you had found out and to check up on her war chest. 

You need a lawyer to go after that money and to uncover her plans. 

She worked for a couple of months to get ready to dump you. 

Mediation works when both parties are playing nice. She isn't. In her own words this is war. 

So get that bill dog lawyer and run her through the ringer. It may cost a little money but she deserves the very best treatment you can buy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Just decided to call her and get it over with.


I gave her one actual concession, that I'd drop the dogs at day care tomorrow and she can go pick them up later. Since earlier today she had wavered on the face to face drop off, figured that was an easy way to play the civil card. And let's be honest, if she really can't face me right now, why would I want to force that?

In response to her mediation/lawyer question I basically said (to paraphrase) of course the cost is a concern, and that I do want to deal with this as easily as possible, but hearing "it's go time", "it's war", "let's go there" kinda tells me we're not any closer to rational communication about what's gone down here.

She said she just wasn't ready for anything like that yet.

I agreed and said clearly I've needed my own time, she should too, makes sense.

But then said as far as mediation goes, it's pretty hard for me to be confident to work out the details ourselves when we can't communicate in person, even over a dog drop off. That because of the position our marriage was put in by this mess, I'm looking out for myself here, and that's why I think having lawyers is really the best idea.

She said some friend of hers mentioned it cost like 20 grand to get divorce. I said there's no way that'll be our case, and it would be done right. She said well how much will it be then? I said my lawyer estimated 7-10 hours of work total. She asked how much that was (clearly she was making it up 2 weeks ago when she said she had a lawyer already), I just said depends on your lawyer, but it ain't gonna break the bank.

I told her she should go ahead and meet with her guy in the morning and see what he has to say and we'll move forward. And that I wouldn't close the door to considering a mediation route down the road, but we gotta be able to communicate to make that even doable, otherwise we'd end up saving a hell of a lot of time, and maybe even money (time is money) letting the lawyers handle the details anyway.

Asked her if that made sense...she said yeah. Cool, good night. Click.



I feel good about it, to be honest. Maybe not perfect, but felt like the right way to handle it right now, gave her a concession on the dog thing, then stood my ground on the lawyers to not give up control (because let's face it, when someone else's attorney is watching you on the record, you're not in control), but also very clearly left the door cracked for if she really wants to try to do this the easy way. Because I sure would, if I had my choice. That and by calling her to talk about it (instead of emailing or staying dark to her questions), that reinforces my point about needing to be able to communicate if we're gonna keep this as simple as possible. 

And if she continues to make it a bumpy road? No mediation. She will have had a chance. Feel like I have a carrot dangled in front of her at the moment. And she said okay.

Whew. 2 beers, then bed.


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## girlfromipanema

Shamwow said:


> Just decided to call her and get it over with.
> 
> 
> I gave her one actual concession, that I'd drop the dogs at day care tomorrow and she can go pick them up later. Since earlier today she had wavered on the face to face drop off, figured that was an easy way to play the civil card. And let's be honest, if she really can't face me right now, why would I want to force that?
> 
> In response to her mediation/lawyer question I basically said (to paraphrase) of course the cost is a concern, and that I do want to deal with this as easily as possible, but hearing "it's go time", "it's war", "let's go there" kinda tells me we're not any closer to rational communication about what's gone down here.
> 
> She said she just wasn't ready for anything like that yet.
> 
> I agreed and said clearly I've needed my own time, she should too, makes sense.
> 
> But then said as far as mediation goes, it's pretty hard for me to be confident to work out the details ourselves when we can't communicate in person, even over a dog drop off. That because of the position our marriage was put in by this mess, I'm looking out for myself here, and that's why I think having lawyers is really the best idea.
> 
> She said some friend of hers mentioned it cost like 20 grand to get divorce. I said there's no way that'll be our case, and it would be done right. She said well how much will it be then? I said my lawyer estimated 7-10 hours of work total. She asked how much that was (clearly she was making it up 2 weeks ago when she said she had a lawyer already), I just said depends on your lawyer, but it ain't gonna break the bank.
> 
> I told her she should go ahead and meet with her guy in the morning and see what he has to say and we'll move forward. And that I wouldn't close the door to considering a mediation route down the road, but we gotta be able to communicate to make that even doable, otherwise we'd end up saving a hell of a lot of time, and maybe even money (time is money) letting the lawyers handle the details anyway.
> 
> Asked her if that made sense...she said yeah. Cool, good night. Click.
> 
> 
> 
> I feel good about it, to be honest. Maybe not perfect, but felt like the right way to handle it right now, gave her a concession on the dog thing, then stood my ground on the lawyers to not give up control (because let's face it, when someone else's attorney is watching you on the record, you're not in control), but also very clearly left the door cracked for if she really wants to try to do this the easy way. Because I sure would, if I had my choice. That and by calling her to talk about it (instead of emailing or staying dark to her questions), that reinforces my point about needing to be able to communicate if we're gonna keep this as simple as possible.
> 
> And if she continues to make it a bumpy road? No mediation. She will have had a chance. Feel like I have a carrot dangled in front of her at the moment. And she said okay.
> 
> Whew. 2 beers, then bed.


Well done, Sham. Well done. Nighty night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BurntLimey

Again, sounds like my situation, starting to wonder if I have a split personality disorder and you are in fact me!!!

Its interesting that she isn't full on screaming about war anymore. It sounds like for all intents and purposes, she is now finally broken. A combination of you keeping your strength, I would assume the breakdown of the affair with the OM and the realisation of what she has had and lost have now hit home.


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## Chaparral

BurntLimey said:


> Sham, I had to register as i have been following your posts since accidentally stumbling over them the other day, and wanted to tell you that I know what your going through, as your experience is scarily identical to what happened to me nearly two years ago, just replace 2 puppies with 2 kids and other than that its the same.
> 
> For what its worth, and its only my opinion, it sounds like your wife is starting to make a play to getting you back. Once reality sunk it with my other half, and leading up to us eventually talking like civilised human beings, she was still attacking me and extending a olive branch in equal measures.
> It was almost like she desperately wanted to talk and make it work, but at the same time was still on the offensive in case she needed to cut and run again.
> I think you need to be prepared to meet both of your wife's personalities as she probably doesn't know herself how to handle the situation, and I honestly believe that if you just keep quiet and listen, let her talk, you will now get the answers you have been looking for.
> 
> Also I would suggest that maybe the not having a lawyer email could be for 2 reasons. 1, she is broke. 2, and I think this the more likely, she doesn't want a divorce. This is her way of stalling while she tries to find out if there can be a reconciliation.
> 
> Ultimately the choice is yours, and it doesn't matter what people say "i would dump her right away", "divorce and never look back", lets face it who doesn't say that, but most people are lucky enough never to have to experience making that decision.
> 
> For the record I did make that decision, I choose to give my wife another chance, because people do f*** up, no one is perfect. Do I regret it, yes somedays I wonder if i made the right decision, but I know the person my wife became temporarily wasn't the woman I married, and it came down to wanting the wife back that I know and love. Granted it hasn't been easy, but what is??
> 
> Sorry to go on, its 3am here so easy to ramble away. I wish you the best of luck however it goes, only you can decide what is right for you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Stick with lawyer for now if for no other reason to stay into control. Tell her you may consider mediation, implying if she behaves. Especially since the tax papers remark. What did that mean anyway? Just don't give anything away for nothing.

Most importantly, only agree to bring the dogs over if she meets face to face. No guts no glory. Could very well be an eye opener. If she is trying to hide from you make her man up.

And remember stay cool above all else. If she gets ugly show her your backside.





Oops, too late.

Liked the phone call though!


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## BurntLimey

chapparal said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Stick with lawyer for now if for no other reason to stay into control. Tell her you may consider mediation, implying if she behaves. Especially since the tax papers remark. What did that mean anyway? Just don't give anything away for nothing.
> 
> Most importantly, only agree to bring the dogs over if she meets face to face. No guts no glory. Could very well be an eye opener. If she is trying to hide from you make her man up.
> 
> And remember stay cool above all else. If she gets ugly show her your backside.


Agree with this, don't ditch the lawyer especially if they are good, you don't know when/if you might need them (mine were c*** and as it turned out a waste of money but good insurance none the less, shows you mean business).

I still think she wants the dogs bought round, the face to face meeting is the setup for potential R.

And always stay cool


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## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Most importantly, only agree to bring the dogs over if she meets face to face. No guts no glory. Could very well be an eye opener. If she is trying to hide from you make her man up.
> 
> And remember stay cool above all else. If she gets ugly show her your backside.


Decided to not make the dogs a bargaining chip...just seemed like it would be wrong as I didn't make that a condition when I agreed to drop them for a few days. I know I missed em those 2 weeks when I first left, she has to now...thought it would be a good act to put forward in the humane department.


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## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Decided to not make the dogs a bargaining chip...just seemed like it would be wrong as I didn't make that a condition when I agreed to drop them for a few days. I know I missed em those 2 weeks when I first left, she has to now...thought it would be a good act to put forward in the humane department.




Not bad at all. Props


Why do you think she doesn't want a face to face? Embarrassed? I didn't realize she was avoiding you. Don't know how I missed that.:scratchhead:


----------



## Shamwow

BurntLimey said:


> Agree with this, don't ditch the lawyer especially if they are good, you don't know when/if you might need them (mine were c*** and as it turned out a waste of money but good insurance none the less, shows you mean business).
> 
> I still think she wants the dogs bought round, the face to face meeting is the setup for potential R.
> 
> And always stay cool


Won't be ditching the lawyer...will proceed to whatever the next steps are and if I decide otherwise, he can wait in the wings as long as I need. He is good...founding partner of one of the largest firms in town, been kicking a** for 40 years. Wonder if my W knows that...she probably will when she mentions his name to her guy tomorrow. That's assuming she actually has a meeting with a lawyer in the morning...she may have just been throwing a hail mary to avoid having to come up with a retainer (even a small one, if she goes with JimBob's Family Law).


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## Dadof3

chapparal said:


> Not bad at all. Props
> 
> 
> Why do you think she doesn't want a face to face? Embarrassed? I didn't realize she was avoiding you. Don't know how I missed that.:scratchhead:


She lost her confidence - may even look like hell - if she's been living in near poverty for two weeks. 

She maybe afraid of loosing her own composure, after all - Sham's been in charge and she's probably lost everything except that little stash that she's set aside with the financial planner.


The OM is probably blocking her calls now, or ignoring her. Her friends maybe shunning her a bit as Sham's put up a classy act. 

World is crashing down. So sad. So sad.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> Not bad at all. Props
> 
> 
> Why do you think she doesn't want a face to face? Embarrassed? I didn't realize she was avoiding you. Don't know how I missed that.:scratchhead:


Yeah...seems like it. Embarrassment is my main suspect. 10 days ago when I went back for the rest of my stuff she was elsewhere while I moved, later claiming it was because she was "not able to look at me after what I did to that poor girl(OMW)". (uh huh..)

This is the next time a face to face would have been expected since then, and she even initiated it on Sun by asking if she could have the pups for a few days...I told her I'd drop them off on Tues and she said okay. Then today she said she needed to figure out a "transfer" for the drop off. And she did say tonight on the phone that she's not ready for anything like that yet (actual conversation, perhaps having to talk about what went down, etc).


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> She lost her confidence - may even look like hell - if she's been living in near poverty for two weeks.
> 
> She maybe afraid of loosing her own composure, after all - Sham's been in charge and she's probably lost everything except that little stash that she's set aside with the financial planner.
> 
> 
> The OM is probably blocking her calls now, or ignoring her. Her friends maybe shunning her a bit as Sham's put up a classy act.
> 
> World is crashing down. So sad. So sad.


I did see on her email the other day (I checked after a week of not caring, and she hadn't changed the pw yet, oops) that she's been ordering pizza almost every night. Kinda makes me sad actually, because that was a habit we both broke a few months ago when I/we started working out all the time. It's always a shame to see physical progress like we made get snuffed out in a few weeks...I've done that to myself dozens of times over the years. But...then I wouldn't know. Maybe that's why she doesn't want to meet to my face...an extra 5-10 lbs she's socked on? Who knows...I'm looking great though.


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## BurntLimey

Dadof3 said:


> She lost her confidence - may even look like hell - if she's been living in near poverty for two weeks.
> 
> She maybe afraid of loosing her own composure, after all - Sham's been in charge and she's probably lost everything except that little stash that she's set aside with the financial planner.
> 
> 
> The OM is probably blocking her calls now, or ignoring her. Her friends maybe shunning her a bit as Sham's put up a classy act.
> 
> World is crashing down. So sad. So sad.


:iagree: Sounds like the world HAS crashed down. Again, probably why she cant face Sham now, nothing to do with what he did to that poor OMW :scratchhead: more to do with her not being able to look Sham in the eyes now she has realised what she has done to him! Hindsight is such a cruel thing


----------



## BurntLimey

Shamwow said:


> Who knows...I'm looking great though.


I like the positive thinking, where you are now i was an emotional wreck. Great for losing weight though, if I could bottle the "Divorce Diet" i'd be a millionaire!!!


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> I did see on her email the other day *(I checked after a week of not caring, and she hadn't changed the pw yet, oops*) that she's been ordering pizza almost every night. Kinda makes me sad actually, because that was a habit we both broke a few months ago when I/we started working out all the time. It's always a shame to see physical progress like we made get snuffed out in a few weeks...I've done that to myself dozens of times over the years. But...then I wouldn't know. Maybe that's why she doesn't want to meet to my face...an extra 5-10 lbs she's socked on? Who knows...I'm looking great though.


I have a feeling that this is intentional. Think of a Trojan horse. She knows you know the password - AND - it hasn't changed at ALL. If there was any way to bait u into getting what she wanted (even an R) - this would be the way she would do it.

Its almost like feigned transparency. Tread carefully!


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## morituri

I wonder if any of her married female friends who may now know that she was having an affair with a married man, are keeping her at arms length. A pariah.


----------



## Shamwow

morituri said:


> I wonder if any of her married female friends who may now know that she was having an affair with a married man, are keeping her at arms length. A pariah.


I don't know for sure...but I know several haven taken her out for lunch or happy hour.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> I have a feeling that this is intentional. Think of a Trojan horse. She knows you know the password - AND - it hasn't changed at ALL. If there was any way to bait u into getting what she wanted (even an R) - this would be the way she would do it.
> 
> Its almost like feigned transparency. Tread carefully!


I've had that same thought, mainly along the lines of "proving to me" that she's not emailing D-Bag anymore (or even more importantly to her right now, that HE's not emailing her...for his sake because the OMW would hear that from me). Of course if they were emailing it would be all new anonymous accts anyway, but she may be leaving it open just to have a venue to toy with me. And...since I checked it, she would have a point. Not that I would buy anything of substance if it appeared there anymore.


----------



## Shamwow

morituri said:


> I wonder if any of her married female friends who may now know that she was having an affair with a married man, are keeping her at arms length. A pariah.


I will say this...talking with OMW about some details she was asking about from the text logs, I noticed how many people in my W's work circle were made aware of this infatuation before it was actually consummated.

Whip Morgan has a thread about "cheater's clubs" of people he's witnessed at hotels, and how they all encouraged each other to cheat while on vacation from their spouses. This is the scene I've discovered from my W's travel colleagues. They knew she was trying to make it happen. Many encouraged her, telling her to put her happiness first, even said "him? That's awesome!!!". Men and women, single and married. They call this kind of thing RFB (road **** buddies) or road fever. Makes me nauseous, as I've been out with most of these people many times in the last year or two as a group. That they could be so shallow and push her toward this, not only knowing she was married, as was OM...but also knowing ME...it's sickening. Only one of them that I know of said "hey, you're both adults, you make your own decisions, and you both know the consequences, so you have to do what makes you happy." But he's also the one that said the "awesome" quote from above. Toxic friends...

That said, they all also now know that she got summarily busted, her husband figured it all out and LEFT HER. And the OM is in a similar boat (he's been kicked out, and OMW is struggling to consider R as he's been remorseful). So my W now has that hanging over her head. And everyone knows it, and they hopefully will rethink that toxic environment of road fever in the future, because someone finally saw the consequences. I bet she's pretty embarrassed.

Even though they're all probably being supportive of her in her "time of need"...they know deep down she got what was coming for her actions.


----------



## F-102

Sounds like she wants mediation because:

1) Her lawyer probably told her that she doesn't have a leg to stand on, i.e., she's NOT going to "get everything"
2) She's too emotionally busted to handle a legal battle
3) As BurntLimey alluded to, she can't afford one

The OM has more than likely kicked her to the curb, so her "happily ever after" is over.
Her friends have not abandoned her, but they are probably looking at her totally differently.
She sees a future of financial turmoil ahead of her.
Those friends who encouraged her to cheat will probably melt away one-by-one when they get the rest of the story, sorta like the star quarterback who broke his leg, and now the team doesn't know what to do with him.
And, she counted on Sham Mk.I when she made her plans, now she got Sham Mk.II.

Sham, I think that she is now regretting her actions, and the consequences can no longer be ignored-she knows that she ROYALLY f***ed up.


----------



## F-102

Oh, and as far as her PW and her e-mails: it could be a red herring so that you'll let your guard down...

...or, she is trying again to guilt you into seeing the lowly state you put her in (remember how she tried to guilt you about what you did to the "poor OMW")...

...or, she never thought you'd still be looking.


----------



## aug

The wife is a smart woman.

Given her past behaviors since her early years, she knows how to handle consequences. And her parents will help her too because that's their role as parents.

I see her able to adapt quickly and moving on with her life.


----------



## Chaparral

F-102 said:


> Sounds like she wants mediation because:
> 
> 1) Her lawyer probably told her that she doesn't have a leg to stand on, i.e., she's NOT going to "get everything"
> 2) She's too emotionally busted to handle a legal battle
> 3) As BurntLimey alluded to, she can't afford one
> 
> The OM has more than likely kicked her to the curb, so her "happily ever after" is over.
> Her friends have not abandoned her, but they are probably looking at her totally differently.
> She sees a future of financial turmoil ahead of her.
> Those friends who encouraged her to cheat will probably melt away one-by-one when they get the rest of the story, sorta like the star quarterback who broke his leg, and now the team doesn't know what to do with him.
> And, she counted on Sham Mk.I when she made her plans, now she got Sham Mk.II.
> 
> Sham, I think that she is now regretting her actions, and the consequences can no longer be ignored-she knows that she ROYALLY f***ed up.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I think she is as embarrassed as a human can possibly be. She is wishing she could put this genie back in the bottle. 
and now there is no way out of this mess. This is the one scenario she did not foresee.

On the road party girl goes down in flames and now can't own it. What's worse is she not getting any younger. 37, no loving husband at home, no kids, house in jeopardy, OM disappeared like a ghost, money wasted, friends acting differently and no prospects in sight. 

To top it all off she goes to a dating web site. She must feel humiliated by all this if she hasn't lost all touch with reality. Must be constantly racking her brain for a way out of this mess. You know she is constantly trying to figure a way to turn the clock back to happier times and knows she can't. Talk about getting hit by a freight train. She's certainly discovered what hopeless really means.


----------



## Chaparral

"I will say this...talking with OMW about some details she was asking about from the text logs, I noticed how many people in my W's work circle were made aware of this infatuation before it was actually consummated."

At some point I would send these RFB's a strong message and let them know you you know what a lowlife they are.

"I don't know for sure...but I know several haven taken her out for lunch or happy hour. "

Friends looking for the dirty details of a train wreck in progress. Do girl friends have a problem with a woman who cheats with other women's husbands/boyfriends?


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> I will say this...talking with OMW about some details she was asking about from the text logs, I noticed how many people in my W's work circle were made aware of this infatuation before it was actually consummated.
> 
> Whip Morgan has a thread about "cheater's clubs" of people he's witnessed at hotels, and how they all encouraged each other to cheat while on vacation from their spouses. This is the scene I've discovered from my W's travel colleagues. They knew she was trying to make it happen. Many encouraged her, telling her to put her happiness first, even said "him? That's awesome!!!". Men and women, single and married. They call this kind of thing RFB (road **** buddies) or road fever. Makes me nauseous, as I've been out with most of these people many times in the last year or two as a group. That they could be so shallow and push her toward this, not only knowing she was married, as was OM...but also knowing ME...it's sickening. Only one of them that I know of said "hey, you're both adults, you make your own decisions, and you both know the consequences, so you have to do what makes you happy." But he's also the one that said the "awesome" quote from above. Toxic friends...
> 
> That said, they all also now know that she got summarily busted, her husband figured it all out and LEFT HER. And the OM is in a similar boat (he's been kicked out, and OMW is struggling to consider R as he's been remorseful). So my W now has that hanging over her head. And everyone knows it, and they hopefully will rethink that toxic environment of road fever in the future, because someone finally saw the consequences. I bet she's pretty embarrassed.
> 
> Even though they're all probably being supportive of her in her "time of need"...they know deep down she got what was coming for her actions.


When u realize the implications of the what Sham says here - this is where you have to stand up and give Sham a standing ovation. This was a train wreck bound to have affected Sham the most, yet he deflected it at only the cost of a WW.

I also would further allege that the RFB club was also the source of her wayward ramblings to coworkers and may not necessarily have reflected her true feelings about Sham. Yet, she got caught up in the excitement that the club offered and played the part to figure out if thats the life she wanted.

BRAVO SHAM, BRAVO!

I'd almost put money on a bet that her FOG is lifting and any aspect of this divorce is more geared around two things - finding a way to R or finding a way to minimize the financial damage if there isn't a R.

:smthumbup::lol::smthumbup:

I would also add the saying: Believe none of what you see, and only half of what you hear.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

As always, Sham, you're the man.

Seriously, when all is said and done, a "how to" guide (possibly with names changed to protect the innocent... or maybe not, to shame the guilty) penned by your hand might be a great idea.


----------



## ManDup

Shamwow said:


> Won't be ditching the lawyer...will proceed to whatever the next steps are and if I decide otherwise, he can wait in the wings as long as I need. He is good...founding partner of one of the largest firms in town, been kicking a** for 40 years. Wonder if my W knows that...she probably will when she mentions his name to her guy tomorrow. That's assuming she actually has a meeting with a lawyer in the morning...she may have just been throwing a hail mary to avoid having to come up with a retainer (even a small one, if she goes with JimBob's Family Law).


I will throw in my two cents here about divorce, though IANAL, and what's true in my state is unlikely to be true in yours, but after all this is the divorce section and I had one. My guy in Texas that will do "agreed divorce" with one lawyer where the parties decide on the split, and while he is only one person's lawyer officially, he will write up whatever that one person tells him to after advising him of the law, and then he will file it. The other person just has to sign, and of course is free to read it/take it to a lawyer for review if needed, etc. I did this, but my ex, before signing, ran it past a lawyer who advised her that "if you lived in Maryland you'd get a huge alimony"... wtf? Anyway, for $1500 her lawyer read it and made a few suggestions (as it ended up my daughter wanted to stay with her mother which cost me 40 grand in child support, but oh well), but the divorce itself only cost 3grand for me and 1500 for her, and that was with kids, house, 401k, custody, and everything. It never went to court except literally to be rubber-stamped, and filed. She didn't need to spend that 1500 technically, but in the end it did buy her time to convince our daughter to live with her, so hey, now it's 1500 every month until next June, money well spent.


----------



## Shamwow

And yet another brick wall. Thought we were good after talking last night.

Today I get texted: "This is going to cost a whole lot of money. Skip the dogs. I can't afford an hour of daycare."

Then: "Heard you have the most costly lawyer in town, yet the least responsive. Is all this necessary?"


So she talked to a lawyer, he knows mine, and passed his rep on to her. (he's been very responsive, btw. If he's not available, I can always get a secondary attorney or his assistant on the phone.) And no he's not the most expensive, but he isn't cheap. What does she care? It's not her money, right? Since it's all so "simple" to work the details out, she can hire a $50/hr lawyer and we'll probably get the same result. She can say I wasted my money. I could even argue the same, tbh. Ummm...so? Is it "all necessary"? NO. I told her that on the phone last night. Also told her her that I would consider mediation if we were able to talk about things rationally, but in the meantime I have no better option than to let a professional handle things. I warned her that I would divorce her if she went on this Vegas trip, and/or if she went ahead and cheated. She denied everything and went anyway. When she came back I told her I'd seen an attorney and had papers drawn up, but gave her a chance to tell me her story from the beginning and I would at least listen. She denied everything. Then I found the texts and I pulled the trigger. She knew the consequences, she didn't care then. Now she's worried about a couple thousand dollars after blowing a few times that prepping and paying for her affair week.

Would love to remind her of these things, but at the moment worry that I couldn't do it without anger in my voice, as all of it is still really painful for me to deal with. Perhaps an email? Perhaps ignore? Perhaps a short text saying "There are many things that weren't necessary. Right now this is the only way to handle it."? It's true lawyers aren't "necessary", as the division of assets should be simple. No kids, no trust funds, no property besides the house, etc. I WANT to be able to do mediation and keep costs down for myself (and her, by extension). If I say: "Okay honey, you showed me complete disrespect for the last 4 months, you created this entire situation by your own selfish actions, you were going to string me along for as long as you needed while digging a hole under me and our marriage, so you could eventually slip out the back door and blame the whole thing on me...sure, I'll roll over like your ex-H did and give you the gift of a home-remedy divorce."...then I give up most of the self-respect I've gained through this process, because she'll have it the way she planned anyway (well, plus some exposure, guilt and shame). Seriously, is it vindictive, if the main reason I don't want to give on lawyers is because I don't want to give her the pleasure? Maybe. Can't think of another way to explain it to her than the way I did last night though. This sucks.

I got a lawyer to follow through on the consequences I laid out and show her I was serious. She knows I'm serious, but she thinks I'm just trying to hurt her financially and "get her back" by sticking on this. In truth...Am I? Hard to think straight.

As for the dogs, come on. She can order $27 in pizza every day and buy a used car, but can't pay 10 bucks for an hour of daycare so she can pick them up without seeing me?

Sigh.


----------



## ManDup

Shamwow said:


> And yet another brick wall. Thought we were good after talking last night.
> 
> Today I get texted: "This is going to cost a whole lot of money. Skip the dogs. I can't afford an hour of daycare."
> 
> Then: "Heard you have the most costly lawyer in town, yet the least responsive. Is all this necessary?"
> 
> 
> So she talked to a lawyer, he knows mine, and passed his rep on to her. (he's been very responsive, btw. If he's not available, I can always get a secondary attorney or his assistant on the phone.) And no he's not the most expensive, but he isn't cheap. What does she care? It's not her money, right? Since it's all so "simple" to work the details out, she can hire a $50/hr lawyer and we'll probably get the same result. She can say I wasted my money. I could even argue the same, tbh. Ummm...so? Is it "all necessary"? NO. I told her that on the phone last night. Also told her her that I would consider mediation if we were able to talk about the things we needed to talk about, but in the meantime I have no better option than to let a professional handle things. I warned her that I would divorce her if she went on this Vegas trip, and/or if she went ahead and cheated. She denied everything and went anyway. When she came back I told her I'd seen an attorney and had papers drawn up, but gave her a chance to tell me her story from the beginning and I would at least listen. She denied everything. Then I found the texts and I pulled the trigger. She knew the consequences, she didn't care then. Now she's worried about a couple thousand dollars after blowing a few times that prepping and paying for her affair week.
> 
> Would love to remind her of these things, but at the moment worry that I couldn't do it without anger in my voice, as all of it is still really painful for me to deal with. Perhaps an email? Perhaps ignore? Perhaps a short text saying "There are many things that weren't necessary. Right now this is the only way to handle it."? I WANT to be able to do mediation and keep costs down for myself (and her, by extension). If I say: "Okay honey, you showed me complete disrespect for the last 4 months, you created this entire situation by your own selfish actions, you were going to string me along for as long as you needed while digging a hole under me and our marriage, so you could eventually slip out the back door and blame the whole thing on me...sure, I'll roll over like your ex-H did and give you the gift of a home-remedy divorce."...then I give up most of the self-respect I've gained through this process, because she'll have it the way she planned anyway. Seriously, is it vindictive, if the main reason I don't want to give on lawyers is because I don't want to give her the pleasure? Maybe. Can't think of another way to explain it to her than the way I did last night though. This sucks.
> 
> It's true lawyers aren't "necessary", as the division of assets should be simple. No kids, no trust funds, no property besides the house, etc. I got a lawyer to show her I was serious. She knows I'm serious, but she thinks I'm just trying to hurt her financially by sticking on this. In truth...Am I? Hard to think straight.
> 
> As for the dogs, come on. She can order $27 in pizza every day and buy a used car, but can't pay 10 bucks for an hour of daycare so she can pick them up without seeing me?
> 
> Sigh.


She doesn't have to get a lawyer, AFAIK. And you being the hella guy you are can instruct your lawyer in how to divide the assets, fairly. Talk to your lawyer about this option and what it would cost you.


----------



## Cypress

Sham,

I know mediation would mean interaction with her. But with a clear set of rules it may be possible. Another advantage of mediation is that the divorce will be over sooner. 
*
Here is a list of sample rules from a mediation website:*

1. We agree to take turns speaking and not interrupt each other.

2. We agree to call each other by our first names, not "he" or "she."

3. We agree to not blame, attack, or engage in put-downs and will ask questions of each other for the purposes of gaining clarity and understanding.

4. We agree to stay away from establishing hard positions and express ourselves in terms of our personal needs and interests and the outcomes that we wish to realize.

5. We agree to listen respectfully and sincerely try to understand the other person's needs and interests.

6. We recognize that, even if we do not agree with it, each of us is entitled to our own perspective.

7. We will not dwell on things that did not work in the past, but instead will focus on the future we would like to create.

8. We agree to make a conscious, sincere effort to refrain from unproductive arguing, venting, or narration, and agree to use our time in mediation to work toward what we perceive to be our fairest and most constructive agreement possible.

9. We will speak up if something is not working for us in mediation.

10. We will request a break when we need to.

11. While in mediation, we will refrain from adversarial legal proceedings (except in the case of an emergency necessitating such action).

12. We will point out if we feel the mediator is not being impartial as to person and neutral as to result.

*Let her know that if she breaks the rules, mediation ends and the lawyers take over.*

Cypress


----------



## eagleclaw

Your not dealing with a logical or reasonable person right now. She is only in it to keep turning the knife given any oppertunity to do so. You went dark, she keeps trying to get you to open up a little by using the dogs, or dogfood, or need of car or whatever. Any every time you do, she sees it as a "weakness" and uses it to turn that knife a little. 

It's pretty clear she isn't trying to atone or lure you back. All she knows is how escelate and continue the same pattern she has for the last 4 months.

Good riddance my friend.


----------



## aeg512

I think you should send your WW an email and tell her your thoughts. I am one that thinks a response is required on some issues. I know a lot do not think the wayward will take it into account but unless they have a low IQ or are psychotic they do get the message and your wife is neither of these. She may try to minimize but will remember what you have said.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

"You made it necessary."


----------



## Shamwow

Wow, re-reading my last post it's becoming pretty clear to me what my position is here. Sad as it sounds, it seems I may just be holding out for an apology before I play nice.

That seems a little childish, especially considering I may never get one. When I left I didn't "take my toys and go home", that was totally justified. But now that the point has been made, and made hard...and as much as I don't want to give her the satisfaction of running any of this on her terms, wondering if someday looking back I'll be able to respect myself for sticking to my guns...when I guess I'm just trying to end the marriage too. Where do I draw the line here? Really waffling, but I am not the "stick it to her guy", I'm the guy in charge right now. Can't I be alpha, be in charge, and still soften the financial blow on both of us? Isn't the high road just as painful to her as the hard road now, considering her affair has been exposed to family and some friends, her work colleagues, and her now (presumably) ex-bf's wife? Seems the only thing left is financial punishment, and I'm starting to feel that's not somewhere I want to go if I can't even think of a way to respond to her about that without hovering around the truth on how I feel about it.

Just so tired of keeping my dukes at the ready. Like my lawyer told me on our initial consultation, given our situation (no kids, easily split assets, etc) she can't really do anything to me, and I can't really do anything to her, so it will be very easy. All she could do is maybe have me arrested, or put a restraining order on me. She can't do anything substantial. So what am I fighting this point for still? The point has been made.


----------



## girlfromipanema

Shamwow said:


> Would love to remind her of these things, but at the moment worry that I couldn't do it without anger in my voice, as all of it is still really painful for me to deal with. Perhaps an email? Perhaps ignore? Perhaps a short text saying "There are many things that weren't necessary. Right now this is the only way to handle it."? It's true lawyers aren't "necessary", as the division of assets should be simple. No kids, no trust funds, no property besides the house, etc. I WANT to be able to do mediation and keep costs down for myself (and her, by extension). If I say: "Okay honey, you showed me complete disrespect for the last 4 months, you created this entire situation by your own selfish actions, you were going to string me along for as long as you needed while digging a hole under me and our marriage, so you could eventually slip out the back door and blame the whole thing on me...sure, I'll roll over like your ex-H did and give you the gift of a home-remedy divorce."...then I give up most of the self-respect I've gained through this process, because she'll have it the way she planned anyway (well, plus some exposure, guilt and shame). Seriously, is it vindictive, if the main reason I don't want to give on lawyers is because I don't want to give her the pleasure? Maybe. Can't think of another way to explain it to her than the way I did last night though. This sucks.


I think an email expressing your thoughts is fine and doesn't show any weakness. I don't think she "heard" your words last night - she's too volatile, but the written word may sink in.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> And yet another brick wall. Thought we were good after talking last night.
> 
> *Today I get texted: "This is going to cost a whole lot of money. Skip the dogs. I can't afford an hour of daycare."
> *
> Then: "Heard you have the most costly lawyer in town, yet the least responsive. Is all this necessary?"
> 
> 
> So she talked to a lawyer, he knows mine, and passed his rep on to her. (he's been very responsive, btw. If he's not available, I can always get a secondary attorney or his assistant on the phone.) And no he's not the most expensive, but he isn't cheap. What does she care? It's not her money, right? Since it's all so "simple" to work the details out, she can hire a $50/hr lawyer and we'll probably get the same result. She can say I wasted my money. I could even argue the same, tbh. Ummm...so? Is it "all necessary"? NO. I told her that on the phone last night. Also told her her that I would consider mediation if we were able to talk about things rationally, but in the meantime I have no better option than to let a professional handle things. I warned her that I would divorce her if she went on this Vegas trip, and/or if she went ahead and cheated. She denied everything and went anyway. When she came back I told her I'd seen an attorney and had papers drawn up, but gave her a chance to tell me her story from the beginning and I would at least listen. She denied everything. Then I found the texts and I pulled the trigger. She knew the consequences, she didn't care then. Now she's worried about a couple thousand dollars after blowing a few times that prepping and paying for her affair week.
> 
> Would love to remind her of these things, but at the moment worry that I couldn't do it without anger in my voice, as all of it is still really painful for me to deal with. Perhaps an email? Perhaps ignore? Perhaps a short text saying "There are many things that weren't necessary. Right now this is the only way to handle it."? It's true lawyers aren't "necessary", as the division of assets should be simple. No kids, no trust funds, no property besides the house, etc. I WANT to be able to do mediation and keep costs down for myself (and her, by extension). If I say: "*Okay honey, you showed me complete disrespect for the last 4 months, you created this entire situation by your own selfish actions, you were going to string me along for as long as you needed while digging a hole under me and our marriage, so you could eventually slip out the back door and blame the whole thing on me...sure, I'll roll over like your ex-H did and give you the gift of a home-remedy divorce.*"...then I give up most of the self-respect I've gained through this process, because she'll have it the way she planned anyway (well, plus some exposure, guilt and shame). Seriously, is it vindictive, if the main reason I don't want to give on lawyers is because I don't want to give her the pleasure? Maybe. Can't think of another way to explain it to her than the way I did last night though. This sucks.
> 
> I got a lawyer to follow through on the consequences I laid out and show her I was serious. She knows I'm serious, but she thinks I'm just trying to hurt her financially and "get her back" by sticking on this. In truth...Am I? Hard to think straight.
> 
> As for the dogs, come on. *She can order $27 in pizza every day and buy a used car, but can't pay 10 bucks for an hour of daycare so she can pick them up without seeing me?*
> 
> Sigh.


Sham,

You already wrote the content of your reply to her text.* Pull the trigger via text* - theres not anger, just truth. Time to let her know how callous her actions really are and that she is living in fantasy land.

She can txt u all she wants - you have control over what you txt back - and there is nothing weak or unalpha like with a logical, yet rebuking response. 

She's flailing in the wind, waiting to see if she can goad u into an emotional response, one that might give her some leverage for an R (she has no better bets right now, she's looking to take her rebuking so the forgiveness she is expecting can follow shortly. )

She clearly doesn't want to be doing this (the D), despite the stuff she says. I don't know about you, but I have found that some ladies do and say stuff when they are in the wrong that doesn't make sense and isn't what they really mean. They are grasping for a way back to the way things used to be.

JMHO.


----------



## girlfromipanema

Shamwow said:


> That seems a little childish, doesn't it? When I left I didn't "take my toys and go home", that was totally justified. But now that the point has been made, and made hard...and as much as I don't want to give her the satisfaction of running any of this on her terms, wondering if someday looking back I'll be able to respect myself for sticking to my guns...when I guess I'm just trying to end the marriage too. Where do I draw the line here? Really waffling, but I am not the "stick it to her guy", I'm the guy in charge right now. Can't I be alpha, be in charge, and still soften the financial blow on both of us?


I don't think it's childish. You've been put through hell. You're doing an outstanding job. You've been a gentlemen and not many in your situation would be able to handle it the way you have (myself included, I'm afraid). If you're waffling, give yourself more time.

You can agree to attempt mediation, with the stipulation that you'll engage your lawyer if she doesn't act like a rational, civilized lady (which I don't think she's capable of right now).


----------



## Sod

Dont send an email yet, think about it and give some time to let it sink in. If you do happen to end up in court, ALL written communication is evidence (Texts and email) and can be used against the other person. Normally temp orders exist in a divorce filing that require the parties to not provoke or threaten harm. Last thing you need is lose it and have it in writing and lo and behold, an abuse claim and restraining order comes your way.


----------



## girlfromipanema

Angel5112 said:


> You're not being childish. I think lawyers are completely necessary. As for the dogs, it's probably better like this anyways. You wouldn't want to risk not being able to get them back.
> 
> Right now she is just angry, not remorseful, that you blew the lid off her whole operation. I told my friends about my ONS and it was humiliating. Did they still love me? Yes. Did they look at me differently than before? You bet they did. She is lashing out at you right now and I wouldn't trust anything she said, does, or suggests.
> 
> She is being very manipulative in her texts. I would almost say to her in an email that you will be "going dark" until she can decide to be civilized. These interactions are just a big mind f*ck and they have to be tiring. You don't need to hold her hand through this divorce, but she is expecting you to.
> 
> Also, *I would ONLY agree to mediation if (and that's a BIG if) she agreed to take on all the debt that she accrued starting at her 10wk trip.* I would venture to say that she is probably not happy about being stuck with that and will fight to not be solely responsible. She most likely is hoping to split everything right down the middle. Remember she did "steal" that money you put in the joint account for your insurance premiums. The fact is, she is probably going to get stuck with more debt than you. As she should.


Angel nailed it. And, I love the idea about her taking on her affair-prep debt.


----------



## tacoma

Take some time to get yourself together Sham.

You are obviously an intelligent, strong, capable, man.

Your emotions are running high because if the content of the contact with her.

Take some time to get those under control and make a decision.
Your instincts and intelligence haven`t failed you yet I don`t believe they will if you take it slow.

This **** isn`t easy man.

Stay strong.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I say write the email and then sit on it

don't send it

wait a few hours and then go back and proof read it, make sure there are no threats or say anything that could be used against you

then sit on it and don't send it


then tomorrow reread what you wrote and decide if it's for the best to actually send it or if you feel better for just writing it and not send it


----------



## HurtinginTN

Almostrecovered said:


> I say write the email and then sit on it
> 
> don't send it
> 
> wait a few hours and then go back and proof read it, make sure there are no threats or say anything that could be used against you
> 
> then sit on it and don't send it
> 
> 
> then tomorrow reread what you wrote and decide if it's for the best to actually send it or if you feel better for just writing it and not send it



Great advice!


----------



## Shamwow

Email I have crafted, but haven't sent yet. Eh?


"If you want to see the dogs, I want you to see them. I offered to drop them off, you suggested daycare. If you don’t want to see them over $10, then I’ll respect that and keep them with me. Your call.

You don’t have to hire a lawyer. Right now I simply think professional advice is/has been necessary. He can write up the agreement, with input from you through me, and if it’s agreeable it’s all good. Like you said, there are no kids, trust funds, etc to be considered, but certainly details.

If we are able to agree to mediation though, I would keep him retained and if things went south or weren’t handled in a reasonable manner, he would be recalled to step in. I would have some things that would need to be agreed upon before considering mediation, as you may too. I’ll think about it and get back to you."


Sitting on this for a while, feel the need to respond before too long though.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Sham, there's being civil and there's being nice.

You should certainly be civil.

You're not obligated to be nice. 

There's really no point in you being a nice guy to her. Remain civil, but that's it. You've already engaged the lawyer's services. I'd say use 'em.

Don't let her be with the dogs (remember when you first offered to split custody- she was like "Take them both."). She doesn't care about them. They are a tool to her, nothing more.

Don't let her confuse you. Don't let her get under your skin (easier said than done, I know).

You've come all of this way. Just because she's now realizing the grim reality that she's brought upon herself doesn't mean that you have to go out of your way to comfort her or even make things any easier for her. What matters is YOU.


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## harusty

And yet another brick wall. Thought we were good after talking last night.

Today I get texted: "This is going to cost a whole lot of money. Skip the dogs. I can't afford an hour of daycare."

Then: "Heard you have the most costly lawyer in town, yet the least responsive. Is all this necessary?"

Let me translate this for you.

" HOLY COW, I am never going to be in control of Sham again! He is DEAD serious about this. Where is the waek, beta Sham that I could manipulate so easily in the past? Who is this Alpha dude who's kicking my a**? My life is going to suck!"

Sham, I second the notion that you could write a book on awesome. Stand your ground. You seem to have an uncanny ability to discern the proper action.

Regards
Rusty


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## golfergirl

Angel5112 said:


> *"Don't let her be with the dogs (remember when you first offered to split custody- she was like "Take them both."). She doesn't care about them. They are a tool to her, nothing more."*
> 
> 
> :iagree::iagree::iagree:


I knew from get-go the dogs were an excuse to open communication. If you both use your lawyer she must pay some too. She wants to mediate to have opportunity to get to you again - it's forced communication.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stonewall

harusty said:


> And yet another brick wall. Thought we were good after talking last night.
> 
> Today I get texted: "This is going to cost a whole lot of money. Skip the dogs. I can't afford an hour of daycare."
> 
> Then: "Heard you have the most costly lawyer in town, yet the least responsive. Is all this necessary?"
> 
> Let me translate this for you.
> 
> " HOLY COW, I am never going to be in control of Sham again! He is DEAD serious about this. Where is the waek, beta Sham that I could manipulate so easily in the past? Who is this Alpha dude who's kicking my a**? My life is going to suck!"
> 
> Sham, I second the notion that you could write a book on awesome. Stand your ground. You seem to have an uncanny ability to discern the proper action.
> 
> Regards
> Rusty



I agree completely!!!!!


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## lht285

I would write an email to her saying just what you said. Here are my thoughts:

"None of this would have been necessary had you been honest with me. You chose this route when you went to Vegas instead of coming home and coming clean with me. Instead you chose the hard way. Had you been honest, apologetic and remorseful, I could have worked on forgiving you. Instead of being honest with me you chose to be with your circle of friends on the road that encouraged your cheating. I am a one woman man and if you are not a one man woman, then I deserve better. You decided this is war not me, but if it is war then I aim to win. I deserved your devotion and respect, and even though you have given away your devotion, you will still respect me. I gave my heart to you and you callously crushed it, so I did what I had to do to preserve my dignity and my sense of self worth. Now you know that the man you married is still a man, proud, strong, and determined. I am a man you should have been proud of, and will continue to be that man. Yes, I hired the best attorney I could find so that I could make sure that my interests were looked after. If you are willing to come to mediation we can discuss things rationally and get this worked out with a minimum of pain for both of us. Respectfully, Your Husband."


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## Shamwow

I didn't send the email.

Now she calls and says there's a realtor coming over tomorrow, and in order to list the house they need me there because we both have to sign the listing. I told her I don't want the house listed, that we had talked about looking into other options (short sale, deed in lieu of foreclosure, etc) to try to dump the house and not take the full loss. She said she has to get a real estate lawyer to prove the house is underwater, and he requires a realtor to have the listing and value the house first.

I told her I could come by for that, but I didn't want the house listed, and would tell the realtor that. She said okay (we'll see about that). And to avoid any confusion here, I'll reiterate that the house is both of ours, we bought it together and were both on the original mortgage...we refinanced about 5 years ago and it's only her name on the mortgage after that due to my freelance income status (new at the time).

Anyone know anything about this kind of thing? I don't want to sign my name on anything that might end up costing me 20 grand (prob my half of what the house would lsoe on sale) when we have other options. This could be the truth, or this could be a way for her to try to smack some financial pressure back onto me, considering the texts she sent me earlier today.

As for the dogs, I said since I'd have to come by anyway, would she still like me to drop them off then for a few days. She said "Nahh, that's alright." So I guess they're all mine now. A bit surprised, to be honest, but I just said "okay".


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## jayde

Sham . . . you came up with a solid plan to protect yourself from all this crap - moving carefully, methodically with your attorney, etc. As you've said in post after post, you gave her more than ample time to set things straight. You've done way more than your share to do this fairly and giving her (much to the chagrin of many on here) more respect than she might deserve. Don't go back on your stated plan about going the attorney route - this is the right thing to do. Don't give in to the mediation nonesense . . . because that's exactly what it is. Nonesense (as in makes no sense). It only make sense to her (and whatever her plan is) and you know where that logic has lead in the past.

As others have said, she's totally playing the 'Puppy Card'. If she can't pony up the $10 buck to see them, they're not really worth it to her. Sad. 

Don't let Sham 2.0 slip back to Sham 1.7 or 1.5 or whatever. 

You are doing the right thing. You're not being a jerk or cheap or vindictive. You're protecting yourself in a dignified manner (par for the Sham-course). There's no way you'll look back on this and say 'I shouldda . . . .'

If you go mediation . . . I'm thinking you will look back and say . . . . 

Keep the dogs where they are loved.


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## Almostrecovered

You're paying a lawyer so I'd ask him, sounds like a legal maneuver to me that she's doing it so quickly so youll be caught off guard
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

Shamwow said:


> Anyone know anything about this kind of thing? I don't want to sign my name on anything that might end up costing me 20 grand (prob my half of what the house would lsoe on sale) when we have other options. This could be the truth, or this could be a way for her to try to smack some financial pressure back onto me, considering the texts she sent me earlier today.


I`m not a realtor or a real estate lawyer but I don`t see why she would need you for anything since the mortgage is solely in her name.

Now the courts would see it differently in a divorce proceeding but that`s not what this is.

This is someone listing a house for sale.
The only person necessary for that is the person whose name is on the mortgage.

I call bull****, sign NOTHING until you have a lawyer check it out.

Our house is in my name only and I wouldn`t need my wife`s permission to list it if I wanted to.

She`s up to something, use extreme caution here.

As far as mediation, use extreme caution there too.

Going through mediation at her request will give her some power back.
That`s not acceptable.
remember you didn`t cause this **** she did.

Stick with the lawyer.

This house deal along with the mediation is looking to me like she`s trying to regain some control and the only way she can do that at this point is if she cons you into giving it to her.

Start getting a bit hard nosed again, she`s not remorseful, she`s gaming you.


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## Chaparral

She's ping ponging all over the place. Don't even try to figure what she's going to do because she doesn't have a clue herself.

Panic has set in big time. Take everything as slow as possible.

Stay cool.


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## lht285

In most states (I was a Realtor in NC), since you are married you have a financial interest in your residence. Whether you are on the Mortgage or not you are 1/2 owner of the home in the state of North Carolina. This means that unless you sign papers, she cannot list the house for sale. You will have to sign off on the deed when the home is finally sold too. You are frankly in the best of all worlds when it comes to the house since you are not on the Mortgage documents but are still entitled to 1/2 the proceeds if the home is sold for a profit. You may be liable for 1/2 of the debt as well if the house is sold short but I am not sure on this since I got out of the real estate business before short sales became more usual. I would definitely talk to your attorney, and you may want to consult with a real estate attorney.

I would tell her to go ahead and meet with the Realtor, but that you will need to get back with her on when to list the house. Tell her you can't be there for the meeting. Tell her that after the meeting you will be glad to set an appointment to meet with the Realtor at a separate time after you have consulted your attorney. The Realtor is working for you both under the terms of the listing agreement since you both own the house. By the way, if I were the Realtor, I would be getting serious heebee jeebies about this situation. When I was working, homes that were in the middle of divorces were never easy to sell and had lots of issues when it came to closing time.


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## Almostrecovered

I just dont get why she's in such a rush to get the house sold, once it sells she has to pony up half the inequity to the bank


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## Almostrecovered

Almostrecovered said:


> I just dont get why she's in such a rush to get the house sold, once it sells she has to pony up half the inequity to the bank



The more I think about this I am starting to think that she is afraid to be stuck with the mortgage inequity by herself and wants to get Sham to sign something that shows he is part owner if not on the mortgage. Guess she doesn't realize that sham already knows he will be paying half the inequity anyways and this maneuver is moot.


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## tacoma

Angel5112 said:


> Something about this entire situation stinks. I would definitely contact your lawyer before you do anything.


Yeah, she`s up to something it smells rank.

Don`t sign anything without legal counsel Sham.


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## Shaggy

Sham the name on mortgage has nothing to do with who owns the house. Right now the owners of the house are 1-the mortgage company 2-the names on the deed/or the marriage. The name of the mortgage is just saying who owes the money to the mortgage company, not who owns the asset.

Talk to your lawyer before you sign anything. That's his job to advise you.

Oh, btw make sure when you do see her to wear your best clothes and best shoes. You very much want to look your best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mike11

Sham 

It seems that she is trying to get you engaged with any means now
Dogs did not worked out as it seems that she is not ready to face you, and she bailed, she is stewing and trying to get you engaged in a different way and to regain some of her control.

I am still in the opinion that she is trying to find the best way that she can communicate with you without loosing face (which will be very hard in her case) 

be careful with the house listing, consult your lawyer, stay indifferent as much as you can, there is nothing worst to a WW then a BS that is showing indifference to all kind of "drama"


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## Shamwow

I have sent a note to my attorney. Will sign nothing in the mean time (unless advised to go ahead), and am prepared to cancel/postpone the meeting, at least my involvement. This is when I need my lawyer I guess. Can't imagine a mediator would be able to do much for me at the moment. 

Thanks all.

And it is strange that she cancelled the face to face today because she's not ready to talk or see me, and then hours later she sets up an appt I supposedly need to be present for...(wouldn't she just ask me to stop by the realtor's office to sign papers instead?). They shouldn't call this divorce, yet should call it Months Of Forced Speculation.

Guess the divorce is officially open for business.

Slept like **** last night, hoping for a good solid 8 hrs tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

See? She's still game playing. This is all calculated to get a response (any response) out of you. She's flailing and trying to exert what tiny bit of control she can. 

How sad for her, and you, obviously.


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## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> If we are able to agree to mediation though, I would keep him retained and if things went south or weren’t handled in a reasonable manner, he would be recalled to step in. I would have some things that would need to be agreed upon before considering mediation, as you may too. I’ll think about it and get back to you."


Sham, I would truthfully cut this part out. It is unnecessary in my opinion. The earlier paragraph covers all the need in the situation. I think, given her past manipulations, if you give her an inch of rope, she will run with it and try to hang YOU with it. 

What you wrote in the previous paragraph states your position clearly, has good logic behind it and clearly shows you are fully in control. If you give her a chance to drive the car, she will drive it off the pier and you will likely end up right where you were before you typed that.

As always, just my $.02

Q~


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## Almostrecovered

Sham if you haven't already, make doctors appt and maybe get some Ativan or sleeping pills
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Text from W:

"There's two ways of doing this. You and I figure this out and have lawyers write up and let us sign or we go back and forth with them between us till were broke."


Yep...or...you could have not spent (what I've now totaled to be) in the neighborhood of 5-6k prepping for an affair trip, went ahead and HAD the affair after being confronted and warned, and we would not be in this situation right now (maritally or financially), and we could still lean on each other.

Or..."already broke. What's the diff?"

(sorry just enjoying the responses in my head right now, will ignore her text)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI

"I'm aware of my options. My lawyer and I have discussed them thoroughly."
_Posted via Mobile Device_

ETA: I was reading divorce laws in my state and even though fault divorce is out, a loyal spouse is entitled to half of whatever the DS spent on their affair. Check into that.


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## Shaggy

"you chose to spend time and our money on cheating, I've decide to spend my time and my money on dealing with the consequences."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Almostrecovered said:


> You're paying a lawyer so I'd ask him, sounds like a legal maneuver to me that she's doing it so quickly so youll be caught off guard
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And I would add something that sounds like it will cost u more money as well - a ploy if you will to complicate things.

If I were u, I would go into full lawyer mode and tell her to contact yours.


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## golfergirl

Holy man Sham - did you jump so quick when married? Like let her chill a bit. On her end, how about saying this option she's looking at - when would you be available? Like really quit jumping when she snaps her fingers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma

What actually needs to be discussed other than the house and debt?

Other than that you`ve cut yourself free haven`t you?

I`d just find out what the total combined debt is, subtract her affair expenses, split it in half and send her the results see what she says.

I`d do nothing about the house until I`ve consulted my lawyer.

What am I missing?


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## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> Holy man Sham - did you jump so quick when married? Like let her chill a bit. On her end, how about saying this option she's looking at - when would you be available? Like really quit jumping when she snaps her fingers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure which thing I jumped at that you're referring to...her call today maybe?

Or the email I put together in response to some of her texts (didn't send it, btw)?

Did I jump so quick when married? Sure, a lot of the time. I was married. I would her answer calls, texts, and do things for my wife. She would too...but sure maybe I was quicker to bend to her whims than she was over the years. Guess that would make me a first-time husband. 

That said, she hasn't seen that guy in months. This marks the second time I've actually answered a call from her in almost a month, the majority of which she was sending me many texts, emails, and calling me periodically to spew venom.

I appreciate your point, and maybe I should consider going back closer to a more full-on dark now that things are heating up again...but answering the phone, hearing what she had to say, pushing back on what she had to say, and then saying yeah I think I can make that...isn't really jumping to do her bidding in my mind. Her texts sit for hours before being replied to, if ever (I'd say it's about a 10-1 ratio on incoming vs replies).

I've felt a little more soft lately, hard to ignore. No worries, though. The veil has to come up a little here and there though, or this could take forever. I'll keep things on track.


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## seeking sanity

For your own benefit, I'd go with negotiating directly and have the lawyers draw up papers. Why rack up fee's when there is not much to negotiate. If you can't come to agreement on anything contentious you can always default back to the lawyers.


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## seeking sanity

As for the strategy in all of this - I'd just stop participating. Stop letting the paranoid guide you, stop letting hope guide you in the various ways you are trying to manipulate this situation. She is going to do whatever she does, and your actions have only a small bearing on the outcome. It's a false sense of control. If you feel like responding, respond. If you don't feel like responding, don't respond. Just stop making it some big f*cking decision. It's unhealthy for you. The point of the 180/going dark isn't to manipulate the outcome, it's to gain back your own life and remove yourself from crazy town.

I swear 1/2 the people on this board get off on the psychological game of relationships. It's like watching a bunch of emotional day traders.


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## Shamwow

seeking sanity said:


> As for the strategy in all of this - I'd just stop participating. Stop letting the paranoid guide you, stop letting hope guide you in the various ways you are trying to manipulate this situation. She is going to do whatever she does, and your actions have only a small bearing on the outcome. It's a false sense of control. If you feel like responding, respond. If you don't feel like responding, don't respond. Just stop making it some big f*cking decision. It's unhealthy for you. The point of the 180/going dark isn't to manipulate the outcome, it's to gain back your own life and remove yourself from crazy town.
> 
> I swear 1/2 the people on this board get off on the psychological game of relationships. It's like watching a bunch of emotional day traders.


Gotcha. Though the last few days have been the first actual contact we've made since August. In my mind, it is a big decision how to handle it, at least at first. Just posting my thoughts here so I can get things clear and maybe some insight, whether or not it's needed.

I'll try to keep the speculation to a lower level...


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## girlfromipanema

Shamwow said:


> I'll try to keep the speculation to a lower level...


I have to say I'm typically very anti-conspiracy theory, but your wife's actions have made me feel a little more cynical than usual.

This experience is very draining and I think you are wise to use TAM as a sounding board before reacting to your wife.

Hope you get a good night's rest, Sham.


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Now she calls and says there's a realtor coming over tomorrow, and in order to list the house they need me there because we both have to sign the listing. I told her I don't want the house listed, that we had talked about looking into other options (short sale, deed in lieu of foreclosure, etc) to try to dump the house and not take the full loss. She said she has to get a real estate lawyer to prove the house is underwater, and he requires a realtor to have the listing and value the house first.
> 
> I told her I could come by for that, but I didn't want the house listed, and would tell the realtor that.
> As for the dogs, I said since I'd have to come by anyway, would she still like me to drop them off then for a few days. She said "Nahh, that's alright." So I guess they're all mine now. A bit surprised, to be honest, but I just said "okay".


This sounds very 'eager to please' to me. That is what I mean about jumping. Dogs - sure - no don't want them - sure - want me to come for real estate agent days notice - yep and I'll bring the dogs you say you don't want either. From outsider point of view, you're jumping.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Alright, one last zinger for now. The texts have been flying at me, finally replied to one. Good response from me, clear, concise. Pissed her off.

More incoming. Each point she starts to make, she cuts herself off before finishing, with "ugh, nevermind" or "forget it, whatever, we'll just pay them forever".

The zinger? She caps it off with: *"Don't know why you wanted to do this."*

Folks...I'm itching, I'm dying here. Sooooo many ways to send that one over the fence. But for now I'll refrain and let her think about it.

She is off her rocker to ask me that.


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> This sounds very 'eager to please' to me. That is what I mean about jumping. Dogs - sure - no don't want them - sure - want me to come for real estate agent days notice - yep and I'll bring the dogs you say you don't want either. From outsider point of view, you're jumping.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Makes sense, thanks.


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## girlfromipanema

Shamwow said:


> Folks...I'm itching, I'm dying here. Sooooo many ways to send that one over the fence. But for now I'll refrain and let her think about it.
> 
> She is off her rocker to ask me that.


Indeed, she is off her rocker, so why don't you send one over the fence???? I don't think you will be less of a man if you zing her now and then. 

Honestly, I don't think your restraint causes her to think...


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## girlfromipanema

Or maybe you can just ask her to clarify what she means by: "Don't know why you wanted to do this."


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## Shaggy

Reply " which thing? Having you cheat? Or my divorcing you for cheating?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## adv

Shaggy said:


> Reply " which thing? Having you cheat? Or my divorcing you for cheating?"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you replied at all, I would go with something along these lines. Short and to the cutting point.


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## seeking sanity

I would tell her exactly why. I'm angry, hurt, and don't trust you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## piqued

Sham, I'm really sorry. I was afraid this would happen.

I don't know your STBXW; she may be a great lady. But, I do know this behavior.

As I've said before, she is cronically and critically manipulative. She keeps throwing stuff up against the wall to see what you will respond to. "the dogs", "why did u hurt the OMW", "i'm broke", "need a car", "come meet the realtor", "don't drop off the dogs". And, of course all the other texts that you haven't responded to and that we don't even know about.

There is a reason people need to go dark, and it's to avoid this crap. She blasts you, she tweaks your emotions, she plays on the supposed mutual love for the dogs, all to get you to respond in a way she wants you to.

The details don't matter. Everything is a prop. You're shocked she said "nevermind" about the dogs? I'm not. They were just a convenient trump card she knew she could play to get a response.

Look at where you were emotionally yesterday. Because of her missives you were ready to put off the attorney and go through mediation. Why? What's in it for you? Not a damn thing other than having to sit there and listen while she explains why it is all your damn fault that she was spreading her legs for another guy.

I don't mean to be harsh, I really don't. But, like I said, I've seen this behavior in my family and I know it well. People with these traits are generally unhappy regardless of how perfect their circumstances are. They hold powerful grudges but know how to conceal them to gain advantage. They can be the nicest person in the world when it works for them. And they learn all the buttons they need to push to get what they want.

You've been so effective up until now because you've deprived her of this control and it eats at her. Now, as another poster pointed out, she has you "agreeing" about everything from dogs to a meeting with a realtor.

BTW, do NOT sign anything listing the house.

And she's close to getting you to agree to mediation. She's beginning to get what she wants from you again and you're rewarded with a bunch of BS texts about money, why, etc.

Take a step back and see that, even in this, you are being played.

Tell her the estate is simple enough to split, and your attorney will handle it. If she wants to use an attorney to review or suggest changes then fine, but it is what it is. If she doesn't, it's all simple enough she can just sign on the dotted line when it's presented to her and save herself the money. Reiterate you're just trying to end the marriage, not screw her and that the only one that has mentioned "war" is her.

That's it. Then just tell the att to get it done as quick as possible.

But, don't fall prey to these manipulations. She might have been a great gal, but she isn't now. Think...she still, this far down the road, has not said one apologetic or conciliatory thing to you. All she's done is either ask for something or lash out.

Good luck. Sincerely, I don't mean to sound hard or harsh, but since you're "in the arena" of this emotional mess, I thought a sober view from outside the lines would help.


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## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Alright, one last zinger for now. The texts have been flying at me, finally replied to one. Good response from me, clear, concise. Pissed her off.
> 
> More incoming. Each point she starts to make, she cuts herself off before finishing, with "ugh, nevermind" or "forget it, whatever, we'll just pay them forever".
> 
> The zinger? She caps it off with: *"Don't know why you wanted to do this."*
> 
> Folks...I'm itching, I'm dying here. Sooooo many ways to send that one over the fence. But for now I'll refrain and let her think about it.
> 
> She is off her rocker to ask me that.


Your answer......Do what? :scratchhead:

She sounds drunk. :rofl:

I agree with piqued.


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## Almostrecovered

I agree with pique, it's as if she is desperate for attention and like a child will even look for negative attention. Her new plaything left her so now she is acting out against you and will push buttons and do anything to get a response from you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## skip76

Sham the great thing about changes you have made are that it now doesn't matter what you do as long as you keep your frame of mind. You dont want to stay dark then don't. Sham 2 doesn't care. You want to stop by and see your wife then go and it wont matter what happens you need to be happy because new sham don't care. She starts getting crazy simply smile and say " I thought you realized things were different now but I was wrong" and then leave. Nothing bothers you, your confidence can't be shaken. You will make mistakes but it wont matter if you don't care because you will learn and grow. It is all attitude. You lacked it, found it and now she is chipping away at it. Roll with the punches, feel as though your life will rock no matter what you decide. Fate is in your hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Alright, one last zinger for now. The texts have been flying at me, finally replied to one. Good response from me, clear, concise. Pissed her off.
> 
> More incoming. Each point she starts to make, she cuts herself off before finishing, with "ugh, nevermind" or "forget it, whatever, we'll just pay them forever".
> 
> The zinger? She caps it off with: *"Don't know why you wanted to do this."*
> 
> Folks...I'm itching, I'm dying here. Sooooo many ways to send that one over the fence. But for now I'll refrain and let her think about it.
> 
> She is off her rocker to ask me that.


Seeking Sanity - one of those emotional day traders? I RESEMBLE that statement! LOL.

Either way - Sham - That statement above thats Bolded - I'm telling u through all the crap she's said (and you really can't believe it) - is VERY telling. 

Its more about her wanting to R. Serious. When the analysis is all said and done, I think ur wife is a narcissist. To even ask / say that is so totally self-centered thinking, its NOT even funny to the extreme (although I do find her behavior amusing)

Maybe your next (just a suggestion) txt to her needs to be along the lines of: *you really need some professional psychiatric help - you aren't getting it! what part of YOU CHEATED and LIED to me did u misunderstand?*

Back to my day / night emotion trading....Keep your chin up, Sham!


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## Dadof3

girlfromipanema said:


> Indeed, she is off her rocker, so why don't you send one over the fence???? I don't think you will be less of a man if you zing her now and then.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think your restraint causes her to think...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

couldn't have said it better. I didn't see this post, before my previous reply.


----------



## F-102

The comments about you getting the "most expensive lawyer" are probably just another way that she is desperately trying to lay the guilt trip on you.

I agree on others' views on her trying to get you to show up for that meeting with the realtor-she's desperate for an excuse to see you face to face, trying to force your hand. (And, overactive, paranoid me still suspects that she is trying to ambush you-trying to get a mad, emotionally driven response that you will regret and she can use against you).

But that last "Don't know why you wanted to do this" message. That says that she is still lashing out emotionally, and not totally thinking things thru before she acts (Gee, ain't that what started this all in the first place? If there's one thing she's proven over the last few months, it's that she makes decisions on emotional impulse, while totally disregarding the long term consequences-and she's STILL using those weapons even after they blew up in her face). It's like she has that old cartoon angel and devil on her shoulders. She listens to the wise angel and proposes a way to communicate/work with you effectively, and you, quite understandably, think that maybe you can at last work on this whole divorce with minimal damage. But then the devil takes over, and she comes right back at you with venom, putting you right back at square one.

No, you are NOT being childish-you are being very wise and covering your bases. Yes, there will be times when you will doubt your resolve, times when you want to chuck it all and give up, times when you will question your wisdom in your decisions and actions. But please, stay the course, you are indeed handling this magnificently!


----------



## golfergirl

I too think you are handling well.
It's like she's manic. Doesn't know if she's coming or going from one outburst to the next.
The only reason I commented before (and I fear I insulted you) was because to me, it sounded like you were reacting to her every outburst. Not being emotionally invested in her, I find her scrambling amusing. From outside looking in, she doesn't know if she's coming or going and I feared you were getting caught up in following her friggen insane, out of left field crap and reacting to her instead of sticking to your cooL, steady path.
Hope I didn't offend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> I too think you are handling well.
> It's like she's manic. Doesn't know if she's coming or going from one outburst to the next.
> The only reason I commented before (and I fear I insulted you) was because to me, it sounded like you were reacting to her every outburst. Not being emotionally invested in her, I find her scrambling amusing. From outside looking in, she doesn't know if she's coming or going and I feared you were getting caught up in following her friggen insane, out of left field crap and reacting to her instead of sticking to your cooL, steady path.
> Hope I didn't offend.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No offense, you've been very supportive throughout...clearly I didn't want to hear that angle, but there was truth to it. (and for what it's worth, I'm still going from 0 to 60 on the sensitivity scale these days, just less often than before...don't mean to push back too hard)

I so want this to just go civil...but you wouldn't believe the bs I've gotten tonight. Went out with a buddy to see some live jazz, and being incommunicato for a few hours after a brief text exchange unleashed the kraken again (believe me, it was brief). Again. She needs to lay off the wine and think about life.

Therapy would be a good idea.


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> No offense, you've been very supportive throughout...clearly I didn't want to hear that angle, but there was truth to it. (and for what it's worth, I'm still going from 0 to 60 on the sensitivity scale these days, just less often than before...don't mean to push back too hard)
> 
> I so want this to just go civil...but you wouldn't believe the bs I've gotten tonight. Went out with a buddy to see some live jazz, and being incommunicato for a few hours after a brief text exchange unleashed the kraken again (believe me, it was brief). Again. She needs to lay off the wine and think about life.
> 
> Therapy would be a good idea.


Has she always been this way? Or has she never had to deal with 'losing' (for lack of better word) so you haven't seen it.
FWIW I'm really sorry it's coming to this. Once it stops hurting and you get a step back, you'll think - WOW what is she thinking?
It's like her prize is her punishment. You handed to her what she claimed she wanted and look what it's doing to her? As much is this a lesson for all BS to follow from your end, WS should read too, as in, 'Look What Happens When You Get What You Wished For'!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stonewall

She's just throwing everything against the wall to see what will stick and elicit an emotional response from you. Don't take the bait. Remain the cool calm and collected Sham we all know. Be very logical with anything you say. Give her no emotion at all. Thats what shes after. If she can get an emotional response from you she will use it to gauge how she can manipulate you. Trust Me!


----------



## MrQuatto

piqued said:


> Sham, I'm really sorry. I was afraid this would happen.
> 
> I don't know your STBXW; she may be a great lady. But, I do know this behavior.
> 
> As I've said before, she is cronically and critically manipulative. She keeps throwing stuff up against the wall to see what you will respond to. "the dogs", "why did u hurt the OMW", "i'm broke", "need a car", "come meet the realtor", "don't drop off the dogs". And, of course all the other texts that you haven't responded to and that we don't even know about.
> 
> There is a reason people need to go dark, and it's to avoid this crap. She blasts you, she tweaks your emotions, she plays on the supposed mutual love for the dogs, all to get you to respond in a way she wants you to.
> 
> The details don't matter. Everything is a prop. You're shocked she said "nevermind" about the dogs? I'm not. They were just a convenient trump card she knew she could play to get a response.
> 
> Look at where you were emotionally yesterday. Because of her missives you were ready to put off the attorney and go through mediation. Why? What's in it for you? Not a damn thing other than having to sit there and listen while she explains why it is all your damn fault that she was spreading her legs for another guy.
> 
> I don't mean to be harsh, I really don't. But, like I said, I've seen this behavior in my family and I know it well. People with these traits are generally unhappy regardless of how perfect their circumstances are. They hold powerful grudges but know how to conceal them to gain advantage. They can be the nicest person in the world when it works for them. And they learn all the buttons they need to push to get what they want.
> 
> You've been so effective up until now because you've deprived her of this control and it eats at her. Now, as another poster pointed out, she has you "agreeing" about everything from dogs to a meeting with a realtor.
> 
> BTW, do NOT sign anything listing the house.
> 
> And she's close to getting you to agree to mediation. She's beginning to get what she wants from you again and you're rewarded with a bunch of BS texts about money, why, etc.
> 
> Take a step back and see that, even in this, you are being played.
> 
> Tell her the estate is simple enough to split, and your attorney will handle it. If she wants to use an attorney to review or suggest changes then fine, but it is what it is. If she doesn't, it's all simple enough she can just sign on the dotted line when it's presented to her and save herself the money. Reiterate you're just trying to end the marriage, not screw her and that the only one that has mentioned "war" is her.
> 
> That's it. Then just tell the att to get it done as quick as possible.
> 
> But, don't fall prey to these manipulations. She might have been a great gal, but she isn't now. Think...she still, this far down the road, has not said one apologetic or conciliatory thing to you. All she's done is either ask for something or lash out.
> 
> Good luck. Sincerely, I don't mean to sound hard or harsh, but since you're "in the arena" of this emotional mess, I thought a sober view from outside the lines would help.


I believe there is some reality in this.

Q~


----------



## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> No offense, you've been very supportive throughout...clearly I didn't want to hear that angle, but there was truth to it. (and for what it's worth, I'm still going from 0 to 60 on the sensitivity scale these days, just less often than before...don't mean to push back too hard)
> 
> I so want this to just go civil...but you wouldn't believe the bs I've gotten tonight. Went out with a buddy to see some live jazz, and being incommunicato for a few hours after a brief text exchange unleashed the kraken again (believe me, it was brief). Again. She needs to lay off the wine and think about life.
> 
> Therapy would be a good idea.


Sham, I see no reason why you can't put the facts right in her face. From what I have read and I am sure I don't know the whole story, i haven't seen where you have come right out to her and said...

"You had multiple affairs, hid money, lied to me , planned a devious exit and all AFTER I already discussed my suspicions and fears of you being involved in an affair. I laid it out clearly that infidelity is not acceptable, period. That is WHY you are in the situation you are in now, STBXW."

Might be time for a bit of a slap in the face? To hear from you, the one she thought she had total control over, the cold reality of WHY she is where she is?

My $.02

Q~


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## eagleclaw

I would guess she's struggling with trying to figure out the new Sham and how to manipulate him. Therefore she is using the shock and awe approach and just throwing everything at you to see what you respond to and what works for her.

That said, as in any relationship. If you can stay calm, cool and reasonable, and laugh off the abserdity of some of her comments I see no problem with knocking one out of the park now and then. If she's going to open the door for you why not walk through?

I would have responded, that you don't know why SHE wanted to do what she did, particularily since she KNEW this was the outcome. So it is actually her that wanted this.


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## eagleclaw

MrQuatto said:


> Sham, I see no reason why you can't put the facts right in her face. From what I have read and I am sure I don't know the whole story, i haven't seen where you have come right out to her and said...
> 
> "You had multiple affairs, hid money, lied to me , planned a devious exit and all AFTER I already discussed my suspicions and fears of you being involved in an affair. I laid it out clearly that infidelity is not acceptable, period. That is WHY you are in the situation you are in now, STBXW."
> 
> Might be time for a bit of a slap in the face? To hear from you, the one she thought she had total control over, the cold reality of WHY she is where she is?
> 
> My $.02
> 
> Q~


----------



## Dadof3

MrQuatto said:


> Sham, I see no reason why you can't put the facts right in her face. From what I have read and I am sure I don't know the whole story, i haven't seen where you have come right out to her and said...
> 
> "You had multiple affairs, hid money, lied to me , planned a devious exit and all AFTER I already discussed my suspicions and fears of you being involved in an affair. I laid it out clearly that infidelity is not acceptable, period. That is WHY you are in the situation you are in now, STBXW."
> 
> Might be time for a bit of a slap in the face? To hear from you, the one she thought she had total control over, the cold reality of WHY she is where she is?
> 
> My $.02
> 
> Q~


I'm an advocate for this as well - as if you already didn't guess. 

Stick to facts & logic - doesn't get any simpler than that. Keep the cool.

I know a good amount of members on this board believe that Ms. Sham is trying to set Sham up to get the upper hand in the D.

Based on the background Sham gave us in the prior thread regarding her childhood, I will respectfully disagree. 

I think she is really trying to get Sham back as in R, yet her childhood scripting leads me to believe that she's trying to get a relationship back without having to be accountable for her actions. 

We all tend to go back to childhood scripting when we get in situations like this. I don't see her as being as calculating as it sounds, hence why she is doing everything in her power to get Sham to take her back - as-is. 

I am wrong about many things, and possibly this too, but looking at the evidence, this is one of the stronger possibilities. In my opinion, if she really wanted out, she could have made it happen. She could even now, without the financial security blanket she is looking for, but she'd have to compromise a lifestyle.

Sham probably makes the big bucks and if there is any form of security that his wife probably prefers - its probably this. She was kicked to the curb, she knows the fantasy life is over and she woke up and found her security blanket GONE and she wants it back.....

Kinda like Golem and his PRECIOUS.....


----------



## F-102

It's sorta like Hitler and the British after Dunkirk. Hitler (STBXW) thought that he could negotiate an end to the war with Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain (Sham Mk.I), but Chamberlain was ousted, and Hitler now had to deal with Winston Churchill (Sham Mk.II).


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## ManDup

This divorce stuff, too, seems to be following a script. At each stage of the process (papers filed, papers served, papers signed, finalized, etc.) my ex had an emotional/irrational meltdown. So buckle up.

As for the house, yeah, you're probably on the hook for that. Lawyer knows best.


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## Wolf359

Sham, Do you remember when you said that she did internet sex with him ? Did she have a web cam running ? If so, she knows that you have emails and other stuff. Why not say, (I did not like the emails, but the movies of you, that you sent him, doing all the sexual stuff made me very sad. Why did you expose yourself like that ?) Make her think that you have video of her doing stuff for other man. Just a thought, so if she gets really prissy with you,this will shut her up. Just do not act like it's blackmail. What do you think about this ? Also, you have done a really good job, so far, way better then a lot of other people that have done with there stbxw.


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## krismimo

I agree with MrQ the reason why your sort full of anxiety and semi parnoid about her intent and your actions is because you need to fully address the issue of what she did. Yes she will go OFF she will loose her freaking mind but at least you said what you had to say and I think you might feel a little better. Don't expect anything, don't expect her to apologize, don't expect her to feel bad, just expect her to blame you and become really upset. It always gets worse before it gets better. No one will think less of you for what I like to say, "Put her in check". Then after that Get ghost, and continue to do what your doing now please remember after you say what you need to say, what she doesn't understand is that your ignoring her not just to be mean but you need to do it to save your sanity in all this all you know and you can do is control yourself what she decides to do afterwards is on her.  GL


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## piqued

About all these suggestions for Sham to let it all hang out with her (verbally). I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it doesn't really accomplish anything. She, the STBXW, will have to come to be remorseful and willing to admit it at her own pace. Her personality may prevent her from ever owning up to her actions. Even if she does to herself, her pride and past position of dominance in the marriage may never allow her to tell Sham that she messed up. Any words Sham comes up with, no matter how spot on or how pithy or how eloquent are not going to change her mind one iota. In fact, at this point in the process they are more likely to serve to reinforce and harden her positions in her mind. After all, in her mind it was Sham's failings as a husband that even made the contemplation of an affair possible.

It might make Sham feel better for an hour, perhaps a day to get some things off his chest, but it's not going to positively affect the process.

And, at some point down the road, when the process is closer to or at completion Sham can always share his thoughts with her. Perhaps before that she'll reach a point of sharing her's with him. But for now, letting her know what a **** she has been is not going to expedite and facillitate a divorce.


----------



## harusty

piqued said:


> About all these suggestions for Sham to let it all hang out with her (verbally). I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it doesn't really accomplish anything. She, the STBXW, will have to come to be remorseful and willing to admit it at her own pace. Her personality may prevent her from ever owning up to her actions. Even if she does to herself, her pride and past position of dominance in the marriage may never allow her to tell Sham that she messed up. Any words Sham comes up with, no matter how spot on or how pithy or how eloquent are not going to change her mind one iota. In fact, at this point in the process they are more likely to serve to reinforce and harden her positions in her mind. After all, in her mind it was Sham's failings as a husband that even made the contemplation of an affair possible.
> 
> It might make Sham feel better for an hour, perhaps a day to get some things off his chest, but it's not going to positively affect the process.
> 
> And, at some point down the road, when the process is closer to or at completion Sham can always share his thoughts with her. Perhaps before that she'll reach a point of sharing her's with him. But for now, letting her know what a **** she has been is not going to expedite and facillitate a divorce.


:iagree:
Sham, Has she ever displayed empathy for anyone but herself? I ask this because it almost sounds like she my be somewhat NPD. Most people with genuine personality disorders are incapable of empathy for others. You may never see her being contrite. My ex wife never to this day, 20 years later, has ever shown any remorse for what she did to me.


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## Shamwow

harusty said:


> :iagree:
> Sham, Has she ever displayed empathy for anyone but herself? I ask this because it almost sounds like she my be somewhat NPD. Most people with genuine personality disorders are incapable of empathy for others. You may never see her being contrite. My ex wife never to this day, 20 years later, has ever shown any remorse for what she did to me.


Sorry to hear you haven't gotten any remorse from your XW even 20 years later...could be the case for me too, time will tell.

My STBXW can be empathetic, and has shown that to me as well as many friends over the years. She is (was) fiercely loyal to the people she loves...my problem is I'm not in that category anymore, and she is fiercely stubborn and often cold with people that are no longer in her club.

That said, I think she should be in therapy, if at least to work out her delusional behavior lately...she may have a disorder of some kind too, never know...


----------



## aeg512

Just curious, did you ever respond to your WW's message "Don't know why you wanted to do this." If not this would give you a chance to send her a long letter and starting out with the quote to say this is a reply. Point out at the end you have not heard an apology and how this really hurt when you saw she involved a lot of her work friends leading up to the betrayal. At the end you can advise if she really does not see why you did this she needs to seep psychiatric help. From reading your post over the past weeks I would guess you already have such a letter written, all is needed is a little editing and sending.


----------



## Gabriel

aeg512 said:


> Just curious, did you ever respond to your WW's message "Don't know why you wanted to do this." If not this would give you a chance to send her a long letter and starting out with the quote to say this is a reply. Point out at the end you have not heard an apology and how this really hurt when you saw she involved a lot of her work friends leading up to the betrayal. At the end you can advise if she really does not see why you did this she needs to seep psychiatric help. From reading your post over the past weeks I would guess you already have such a letter written, all is needed is a little editing and sending.


:iagree::iagree:

I believe this would be a nice cathartic release for you and a way of closure for her.


----------



## golfergirl

Gabriel said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> I believe this would be a nice cathartic release for you and a way of closure for her.


I agree if you have something to say, say it. But you have to be ready to say it and let it go because the only way you would look weak is going back and forth responding to her crap.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## harusty

aeg512 said:


> Just curious, did you ever respond to your WW's message "Don't know why you wanted to do this." If not this would give you a chance to send her a long letter and starting out with the quote to say this is a reply. Point out at the end you have not heard an apology and how this really hurt when you saw she involved a lot of her work friends leading up to the betrayal. At the end you can advise if she really does not see why you did this she needs to seep psychiatric help. From reading your post over the past weeks I would guess you already have such a letter written, all is needed is a little editing and sending.


I would respetfully disagree with this. No offense aeg512. At this point I think that she is in denial and still very much in the fog. You can't shame her into remorse. Suggesting that she need psychiatric help will only elicit a knee jerk response. Fight or flight if you will. You'll probably get the fight. Stay strong, stay dark, all business for now. I think that writing a letter about how wounded you are would be weak and probably backfire on you.


----------



## Voiceofreason

harusty said:


> I would respetfully disagree with this. No offense aeg512. At this point I think that she is in denial and still very much in the fog. You can't shame her into remorse. Suggesting that she need psychiatric help will only elicit a knee jerk response. Fight or flight if you will. You'll probably get the fight. Stay strong, stay dark, all business for now. I think that writing a letter about how wounded you are would be weak and probably backfire on you.


:iagree:


----------



## BurntLimey

harusty said:


> I would respetfully disagree with this. No offense aeg512. At this point I think that she is in denial and still very much in the fog. You can't shame her into remorse. Suggesting that she need psychiatric help will only elicit a knee jerk response. Fight or flight if you will. You'll probably get the fight. Stay strong, stay dark, all business for now. I think that writing a letter about how wounded you are would be weak and probably backfire on you.


:iagree:
Until she figures it out for herself what she has done, nothing you can say or do will matter. I think at the time I said everything to my W about what she had done, and it always got turned around back on me and just set her off on one. It was only once her head cleared and she realised what she had actually done, could she show any remorse.
Just be business like, there is nothing for you to gain at the moment, sure, you could get some temporary satisfaction, although it will be just that, temporary, then the arguments will start and you will wonder why you bothered in the first place.


----------



## Dadof3

Harusty, VOR, BL:

I have to disagree with the "go dark" mantra as a cure all for this situation. I think "go dark" has its place and has worked up to this point. I think generally, when there isn't some type of mental or personality disorder that "go dark" is completely effective at drawing out the relationship offender into some sort of truth telling / apology.

I think there are those - and so far - I think Sham's wife qualifies this - going back to her childhood MO of messing up and being granted forgiveness without accountability (consequences). 

I believe she missed out on the part of parental love that involves teaching and distilling accountability for her actions, and in this sense, is reaching out for Sham to fill this particular void in her life. 

Its definitely NOT Sham's job to fill in for this void for sure, yet, it wouldn't be a bad thing that Sham ask for accountability - which will involve some interaction with his WW.

In my opinion- it would have to be one of two extremes - Sham goes dark as a black hole - meaning no more interaction whatsoever with WW without a lawyer present who talks for him, or some constructive engagement where Sham shows his alpha, yet firmly demands the accountability that his wife is so desperately lacking and in need of, even with the D as the only route on the table.

I think (I'm probably way out of line on this and really wrong) this may produce respect from her down the road that she was held accountable, although she will be single again. In my opinion, I think our nature (human) demands these behaviors when they are desperately lacking. 

Honey (interaction) attracts more bees (the desired behavior) than vinegar (total dark) - in this situation - IMHO.

Her behavior at this point has been completely childlike in almost all its aspects. My teenagers do almost identical things - in deliberately breaking parental boundaries, getting caught breaking those boundaries, denying that they broke those boundaries, blame shifting and projecting their guilt to me and my wife for their boundary breaking and dishonesty, and pushing back on accountability / consequences that have to follow. 

Sham's WW followed the same script followed except the stakes were higher - marital infidelity.

With my teens - I'm told that they actually want / need the correction, consequences, and direction. When they don't get this, they act more of the same to get that attention / parental love to gain confidence and develop into the adults we would be proud of.

Just sayin'....


----------



## Gabriel

Dadof3 said:


> Harusty, VOR, BL:
> 
> I have to disagree with the "go dark" mantra as a cure all for this situation. I think "go dark" has its place and has worked up to this point. I think generally, when there isn't some type of mental or personality disorder that "go dark" is completely effective at drawing out the relationship offender into some sort of truth telling / apology.
> 
> I think there are those - and so far - I think Sham's wife qualifies this - going back to her childhood MO of messing up and being granted forgiveness without accountability (consequences).
> 
> I believe she missed out on the part of parental love that involves teaching and distilling accountability for her actions, and in this sense, is reaching out for Sham to fill this particular void in her life.
> 
> Its definitely NOT Sham's job to fill in for this void for sure, yet, it wouldn't be a bad thing that Sham ask for accountability - which will involve some interaction with his WW.
> 
> In my opinion- it would have to be one of two extremes - Sham goes dark as a black hole - meaning no more interaction whatsoever with WW without a lawyer present who talks for him, or some constructive engagement where Sham shows his alpha, yet firmly demands the accountability that his wife is so desperately lacking and in need of, even with the D as the only route on the table.
> 
> I think (I'm probably way out of line on this and really wrong) this may produce respect from her down the road that she was held accountable, although she will be single again. In my opinion, I think our nature (human) demands these behaviors when they are desperately lacking.
> 
> Honey (interaction) attracts more bees (the desired behavior) than vinegar (total dark) - in this situation - IMHO.
> 
> Her behavior at this point has been completely childlike in almost all its aspects. My teenagers do almost identical things - in deliberately breaking parental boundaries, getting caught breaking those boundaries, denying that they broke those boundaries, blame shifting and projecting their guilt to me and my wife for their boundary breaking and dishonesty, and pushing back on accountability / consequences that have to follow.
> 
> Sham's WW followed the same script followed except the stakes were higher - marital infidelity.
> 
> With my teens - I'm told that they actually want / need the correction, consequences, and direction. When they don't get this, they act more of the same to get that attention / parental love to gain confidence and develop into the adults we would be proud of.
> 
> Just sayin'....



This is absolutely on the money. Great post. It sums up a lot of the history of Sham's epic thread from before, and this one now. Sham went dark already and it worked. He is only divorcing now - he doesn't need the dark anymore. Telling her exactly why this all happened in a civil, firm way, isn't for Sham's W's benefit, it is for Sham. She may learn from it or she may not. But that's not the real issue here - Sham will have finally and completely articulated his motivations and reasons so he can rid himself of the ugliness inside - i.e. cathartic letter. 

She won't take this face-to-face. She's already bailed on seeing him twice. But she reads emails, letters and texts. Whether he writes her this now or does it after the D is done....he should do it.


----------



## harusty

Dadof3 said:


> Harusty, VOR, BL:
> 
> I have to disagree with the "go dark" mantra as a cure all for this situation. I think "go dark" has its place and has worked up to this point. I think generally, when there isn't some type of mental or personality disorder that "go dark" is completely effective at drawing out the relationship offender into some sort of truth telling / apology.
> 
> I think there are those - and so far - I think Sham's wife qualifies this - going back to her childhood MO of messing up and being granted forgiveness without accountability (consequences).
> 
> I believe she missed out on the part of parental love that involves teaching and distilling accountability for her actions, and in this sense, is reaching out for Sham to fill this particular void in her life.
> 
> Its definitely NOT Sham's job to fill in for this void for sure, yet, it wouldn't be a bad thing that Sham ask for accountability - which will involve some interaction with his WW.
> 
> In my opinion- it would have to be one of two extremes - Sham goes dark as a black hole - meaning no more interaction whatsoever with WW without a lawyer present who talks for him, or some constructive engagement where Sham shows his alpha, yet firmly demands the accountability that his wife is so desperately lacking and in need of, even with the D as the only route on the table.
> 
> I think (I'm probably way out of line on this and really wrong) this may produce respect from her down the road that she was held accountable, although she will be single again. In my opinion, I think our nature (human) demands these behaviors when they are desperately lacking.
> 
> Honey (interaction) attracts more bees (the desired behavior) than vinegar (total dark) - in this situation - IMHO.
> 
> Her behavior at this point has been completely childlike in almost all its aspects. My teenagers do almost identical things - in deliberately breaking parental boundaries, getting caught breaking those boundaries, denying that they broke those boundaries, blame shifting and projecting their guilt to me and my wife for their boundary breaking and dishonesty, and pushing back on accountability / consequences that have to follow.
> 
> Sham's WW followed the same script followed except the stakes were higher - marital infidelity.
> 
> With my teens - I'm told that they actually want / need the correction, consequences, and direction. When they don't get this, they act more of the same to get that attention / parental love to gain confidence and develop into the adults we would be proud of.
> 
> Just sayin'....


Perhaps you're right, I'm no expert on regressive behavior, but he's not her Daddy and should he really be in the position of disciplinarian?


----------



## Dadof3

I discounted already that sham needs to be her daddy - but his WW is treating him like "daddy". 

Sham just needs to deal with her as his own man now, and demand the respect from her for both of them, and exact accountability for her actions with the divorce.

Discipline is exactly what you make of it. Anyone can be in the position to exact it, in this case, discipline is the strength of character to complete the dissolution of the marriage in a way that will make them both stronger for new things.

I think without the interaction from Sham, his WW will pose more difficulty and strain on the process of divorcing than needs be. 

I read somewhere (here on the boards?) that women generally respect men who stick up for themselves and demand respect. If we as men were always dark - or hiding, how is that getting the respect?

In my opinion, going dark is like administering a two by four to the head of a donkey. Donkey might temporarily respond, yet it is still stubborn, after all it is a donkey.


----------



## Almostrecovered

why does he even need her respect?

There's something to be said for washing your hands of a person and being done with them.


----------



## harusty

Shamwow,

I stumbled upon this forum while trying to help a freind deal with infidelity. I have since become rivited by your thread. I'm not the kind of person who normaly posts on forums. In fact the only forum I've ever joined was a Harley forum because I like to talk about motorcycles. 

I'm not an expert on relationships but I could be the poster child for what "not" to do in the process of a divorce involving infidelity. I left with the clothes on my back, 100.000 in child support for 2 children that I had 70 percent of the time, etc. I've been happily remairried now for 16 years. I'm older and wiser now and looking back in retrospect.

Sometimes when I read your ongoing story, I think that this must be ficton. No one would handle themselves in such difficult circustances as well as this man has and is. You should know that you are an inspiration to everyone who has or is going through this. I only wish that I had handled myself as well as you are when I was going through my D. Judging by your actions so far I'm sure that you will come out of this a much better man. Remember that this is temporary and it will pass. Respect is earned and you Sir have mine.

Rusty


----------



## Hijo

Almostrecovered said:


> why does he even need her respect?
> 
> There's something to be said for washing your hands of a person and being done with them.


:iagree:

Screw this wench. To hell with her.

To Lawyer: "Get this done as fast as possible (divorce finalization)"

To ****wife: "If you need something from me, call this number (give lawyer's number)"

Wash your hands of her.


----------



## Shamwow

btw - my eventual reply to that text ("Don't know why you wanted to do this"):

"Didn't. Made myself very clear before all of this. Option A: truth. Option B: this. Simple as that."

She said okay, then this is gonna take til spring...

I sent back "Lack of trust = this. Spite would = spring"

She initially took it the wrong way, and blew up thinking I was saying I intended to be vindictive and vengeful, rack up lawyer fees, etc (this woman loves her a text war...I'm getting much better at ignoring most of it). I told her that was the exact opposite of what I said. She backed down and said "guess I misunderstood".


----------



## Shamwow

harusty said:


> Sometimes when I read your ongoing story, I think that this must be ficton. No one would handle themselves in such difficult circustances as well as this man has and is. You should know that you are an inspiration to everyone who has or is going through this. I only wish that I had handled myself as well as you are when I was going through my D. Judging by your actions so far I'm sure that you will come out of this a much better man. Remember that this is temporary and it will pass. Respect is earned and you Sir have mine.
> 
> Rusty


Man I wish it was fiction...

Thanks for the support, but gotta be honest I've mainly just been taking in all the advice I can and applying it, as strange as some of seemed at first...because the people here seem to know what they're talking about. And so far that's been a good move on my part, because I'm still in control of the situation, trying to work on myself as much as I can, she hasn't set fire to me yet, and is now beginning to calm down and listen to (some) reason. I guess either the reality of my situation is just pretty common around here, or people nailed the circumstances right away and gave good insight. Were I left to my own devices over the last six weeks, I'd probably be in a ditch somewhere eating corned beef hash out of a can.


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## F-102

Pick your battles, Sham-respond to her when she acts like an adult. Of course, when she does, she reverts back to childish bullying when you respond. Keep staying the course. She'll eventually get the message that if she wants this to be painless, she will listen to her lawyer who will most likely advise her to hold her tongue and be civil. 
Unless, that is, she's been shopping for a "Win and get everything at ALL costs"-type. Yes, these are the ones who will advise her to goad you into an argument and get physical or accuse you of the most heinous crimes, or max out the accounts and leave you holding the bag. Of course, you've prepared for that, but, as I may have suggested before, Google "Dirty Divorce Tricks" and be ready.


----------



## harusty

Shamwow said:


> Man I wish it was fiction...
> 
> Thanks for the support, but gotta be honest I've mainly just been taking in all the advice I can and applying it, as strange as some of seemed at first...because the people here seem to know what they're talking about. And so far that's been a good move on my part, because I'm still in control of the situation, trying to work on myself as much as I can, she hasn't set fire to me yet, and is now beginning to calm down and listen to (some) reason. I guess either the reality of my situation is just pretty common around here, or people nailed the circumstances right away and gave good insight. Were I left to my own devices over the last six weeks, I'd probably be in a ditch somewhere eating corned beef hash out of a can.



Yeah, it's almost a travesty that so many people are familiar with the ins and outs of infidelity/divorce these days. I wish that I would have had these forums during my turbulent times. There are some good people here, including yourself, that may even help my freind. You're definitly not alone in your journey. You do seem to get alot of speculation on every detail that you post. Take it with a grain of salt. Everyone is on your side. Having been through this quite a few years ago, I can say that things have a way of coming full circle. This may turn out much differently than you imagine. Hang in there!


----------



## Shamwow

Here we go, let it begin. Nothing big, just now my STBXW is becoming very proactive about moving things forward, has already listed the house (against my wishes, as I want to look at alternative options to sale) and wants me to sign the realtor agreement (my attorney said he will talk to me this afternoon and not to sign anything before we do that). She is also asking me to get more of my stuff from the house so it will show better, wants input on fixing up the house for sale, etc...all basic stuff.

But the reality is (and why I'm posting this) I realize I now am having to start dealing with some of the larger decisions in the process (financial and legal) on a daily basis, and she seems to be pressing the gas pedal. I am very busy with work this weekend, so I guess the stress is creeping on me a little, but I'm handling it okay. Staying all business, and running anything involving a signature by my lawyer. Not agreeing to do things that are ridiculous (she asked if I'd help paint the basement this weekend...told her I would rather she hire someone...she agreed), but am trying to act in a reasonable manner to reasonable requests, in a "somewhat" timely manner, as that's what I'm asking her to do.

I'm not going to let her control the tempo and make my life more hectic than it already is (within reason), so I fear some pushback moments that may set us back on the civil front, since she'll be angry that she's not getting her way again. But on the upside, moving forward is what I want, so I should be glad she's getting the ball rolling and not trying to drag her feet. I guess it's just because I don't have time to deal with it this weekend, and she's all in a hurry. She can wait.

We shall see if the civility remains in the equation. Here's hoping.


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## HurtinginTN

Shamwow said:


> We shall see if the civility remains in the equation. Here's hoping.


Well, hopefully, civility will rule during the whole process. You don't have kids, though, right? So even if she isn't civil, you can rest in the fact that you will be done with her pretty soon. Lots of us, on the otherhand, have to deal with our x's forever in regards to the kids. You will be able to start completely fresh and not have to deal with her once the divorce is final.


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## Shamwow

HTN, that's very true. And I'm thankful for that...just saying the veil is lifting and it's time to do the real world stuff that no one likes to do. I'll handle it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Here we go, let it begin. Nothing big, just now my STBXW is becoming very proactive about moving things forward, has already listed the house (against my wishes, as I want to look at alternative options to sale) and wants me to sign the realtor agreement (my attorney said he will talk to me this afternoon and not to sign anything before we do that). She is also asking me to get more of my stuff from the house so it will show better, wants input on fixing up the house for sale, etc...all basic stuff.
> 
> But the reality is (and why I'm posting this) I realize I now am having to start dealing with some of the larger decisions in the process (financial and legal) on a daily basis, and she seems to be pressing the gas pedal. I am very busy with work this weekend, so I guess the stress is creeping on me a little, but I'm handling it okay. Staying all business, and running anything involving a signature by my lawyer. Not agreeing to do things that are ridiculous (she asked if I'd help paint the basement this weekend...told her I would rather she hire someone...she agreed), but am trying to act in a reasonable manner to reasonable requests, in a "somewhat" timely manner, as that's what I'm asking her to do.
> 
> I'm not going to let her control the tempo and make my life more hectic than it already is (within reason), so I fear some pushback moments that may set us back on the civil front, since she'll be angry that she's not getting her way again. But on the upside, moving forward is what I want, so I should be glad she's getting the ball rolling and not trying to drag her feet. I guess it's just because I don't have time to deal with it this weekend, and she's all in a hurry. She can wait.
> 
> We shall see if the civility remains in the equation. Here's hoping.



She's sure good at keeping herself in 'top of mind awareness'. What a PITA! You're doing great.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Well, sham, you've handled the most devastating aspects of this whole sorry episode like a pro, so these new demands should be childsplay to you.

Hmmm...she agreed to hire someone for the painting real quick. Perhaps she's hoping for a young stud who works with his shirt off?
Send a 60-year-old hag named Olga or Bertha with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth to do it!


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## Shamwow

W emails from iPad today saying Help, can't move, back killing me. Think I had a seizure. Can't get to phone. Please come.

I replied You want an ambulance? She said No. I told her I'd come over.

She is epileptic, but hasn't had a seizure in 15 years. With no phone I had to go. She did have a seizure and fell down the basement stairs, blood all in her hair and on the floor. Was able to get her to a couch, and can't convince her to go to the hospital. They will give her pain meds and tell her to rest, she says. I helped get a few things in front of her, like water, Aleve, some food and her phone.

We've talked about random things, it's been pleasant, though I have no intention of staying the rest of the day and night to wait on her. 

Control play? Doubt it. Test to see if i care if she lives or dies? Maybe. But I felt it was right. First time we've spoken in person since I left. In the interest of civility, I think it was good, and tbh I do care if she lives or dies, I just don't care to be her buddy or stay married to her. She's gonna try to get a gf to help her tonight, maybe stay with her.

She looks like hell, but blood will do that. Odd day. Still there right now, have to leave to get work done soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Wow Sham. Wow.

I'd put money that this was a control play. Hmm, but then again, thats the angle I've been taking all along. It makes sense.

this is designed to evoke empathy and your desire to protect her. Shes looking for the sham man. 

Will be interesting to see how many seizures happen between now and court date for divorce.

Stress is probably big trigger for her seizures, however, one question remains - how has she kept them in check so far?

For a few minutes, she had you wrapped around her finger. Who are you Sham? The Master or the Apprentice?

 

Good job, stay strong!


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## Eli-Zor

No idea what to make of it. She could have mailed any number of people including the OM. 

Clean her up, be charitable in your deeds today but when you leave , carry on focusing on you. Genuine remorse is not something I see coming from your wife.


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## tacoma

I dunno Sham I`ve been reading your threads since day one and I don`t trust ANYTHING your wife does.

Her every move seems to be a calculated manipulation to me.

That may just be because she scares me though.


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## tacoma

Eli-Zor said:


> No idea what to make of it. She could have mailed any number of people including the OM.


I think Sham put the smackdown on any contact with the OM.

Last I remember reading is his wife is looking to R.

He can`t be caught dead talking to Shams wife.


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## Shamwow

Eli-Zor said:


> No idea what to make of it. She could have mailed any number of people including the OM.
> 
> Clean her up, be charitable in your deeds today but when you leave , carry on focusing on you. Genuine remorse is not something I see coming from your wife.


She could have emailed many people, but I'm the only one with keys to get in the house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> She could have emailed many people, but I'm the only one with keys to get in the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Classy move on your part. Keep email from her, my small fear is 'Sham pushed me down the stairs'.
Very small fear as she'd have nothing to gain but revenge, but just keep butt covered.
Again, classy move by you, but she needs to figure things out as to who will look after her and perhaps give a neighbor or one of the infidelity supporter friends a key for such emergencies.
That said, I'm sorry she fell.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sixteen miles

Wow Sham! This is a crazy turn of events, and I am glad that she was not hurt any worse than she was. No matter what she has done, no one wishes injury or illness on anyone.

She could have called anyone, her gf, neighbors, parents, police etc. etc. When the chips were down and she was in trouble she called Shamwow. You are a good man and she knows it, kudos to you for administering emergency care.

Ole 16 miles has been wrong many times before and I will be wrong many times in the future, but I am still sticking to my original prediction. She will show remorse and sadness and is coming out of the fog. The fantasy train has pulled into the station; there are no more fantasy stops for her to make. Reality has arrived big time!

You are still her man, just tread very, very careful Sham! Her past has shown great love as well as great trickery!


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> She could have emailed many people, but I'm the only one with keys to get in the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless she has keys to your place too, out of respect for her privacy and for your own safety, you shouldn't have keys to her private home. Yes still half yours, but her private living area.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hijo

golfergirl said:


> Unless she has keys to your place too, out of respect for her privacy and for your own safety, you shouldn't have keys to her private home. Yes still half yours, but her private living area.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Great point.

I'd broach her with a "I have a key to your residence, and I don't think I should. I do think that you should have someone you should be able to call in cases of emergency that is not me however. Would you like me to give this key to anyone?" (On VAR if in person, or save texted communications).

I sense danger Sham. Tread lightly!


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## seeking sanity

Please Sham, ignore the paranoia. 

There is obviously still love, history, deep personal knowledge, or whatever you want to call it, between you. 

Most people who have affairs do not snap out of it when they get caught. There is a period of denial - the fog - that can go on for a while. Her actions are consistent with a person under a great deal of stress, who's reacting to a chain reaction of events in her life and is thrashing about.

All the talk of leaving you, belittling you, and the other BS with the OM during the affair was just affair BS. Addict talk. Take it was a grain of salt. It seems to me that that, and the lying, is the tape that runs in your head and the basis for the vitriol you feel. Where it's just normal affair behaviour and not indicative of mental problem or an evil nature. And it wasn't really about you at all. People demonize their spouses in order to be in moral congruence when they do bad things - so demonizing you was needed for her to cheat, or she couldn't deal with herself.

Look at how addicts act when they are on their drug and how reformed addicts can be normal, loving , functional people. Affairs aren't much different.

You may not want to get back with her, which is fine, but your paranoia, and the thought this was somehow planned to manipulate you, or a trap to fabricate a spousal abuse claim is complete craziness. Stress probably triggered the seizures. It was good you were there to help. It was the right thing to do. You can still act in a loving way towards this woman, without choosing to have her in your life. I think taking a position of anger, revenge and hatred that so many are subtly advocating here, is moral wrong and will hurt you when you come out the other side of this. Just try to do the right thing and don't think about it too hard.


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## WhereAmI

I don't see this as a power play. There was blood. Unless she's completely lost her damn mind, she had a seizure and needed help. My father is epileptic and has had to fiddle with his meds quite a few times. I can imagine that her emotions from the impending divorce and losing her OM addiction have aided in the seizure. Taking care of her was the best thing you could do, divorcing or not. I'm sure it's helped her see that she ruined her relationship with an amazing man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

seeking sanity said:


> Please Sham, ignore the paranoia.
> 
> There is obviously still love, history, deep personal knowledge, or whatever you want to call it, between you.
> 
> Most people who have affairs do not snap out of it when they get caught. There is a period of denial - the fog - that can go on for a while. Her actions are consistent with a person under a great deal of stress, who's reacting to a chain reaction of events in her life and is thrashing about.
> 
> All the talk of leaving you, belittling you, and the other BS with the OM during the affair was just affair BS. Addict talk. Take it was a grain of salt. It seems to me that that, and the lying, is the tape that runs in your head and the basis for the vitriol you feel. Where it's just normal affair behaviour and not indicative of mental problem or an evil nature. And it wasn't really about you at all. People demonize their spouses in order to be in moral congruence when they do bad things - so demonizing you was needed for her to cheat, or she couldn't deal with herself.
> 
> Look at how addicts act when they are on their drug and how reformed addicts can be normal, loving , functional people. Affairs aren't much different.
> 
> You may not want to get back with her, which is fine, but your paranoia, and the thought this was somehow planned to manipulate you, or a trap to fabricate a spousal abuse claim is complete craziness. Stress probably triggered the seizures. It was good you were there to help. It was the right thing to do. You can still act in a loving way towards this woman, without choosing to have her in your life. I think taking a position of anger, revenge and hatred that so many are subtly advocating here, is moral wrong and will hurt you when you come out the other side of this. Just try to do the right thing and don't think about it too hard.


I'm not saying screw her, let her lay there, I'm saying keep email where she asked for help. In regards to house key, it's respect for her privacy too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Oh, Sham...

I will give her the benefit of the doubt, if only on her history of seizures, but I was pale-white while reading of your errand of mercy. With her refusing to go to the ER, paranoid me was holding my breath, waiting for your last post to end: "Then there was a knock at the door, and two cops were there..."

Of course, I think it was good of you to help her. She had a seizure, which she knows very well, and she freaked because she realized that she was ALONE this time, and you were the first person that came to her mind. And that's the crux of it: she finally realized that she was ALONE.

Sham, hang on to the evidence of her e-mail, talk to your lawyer IMMEDIATELY about this, and get in touch with that cop friend of yours...

...SHE CAN STILL F**K YOU OVER WITH THIS!


----------



## Mike11

seeking sanity said:


> Please Sham, ignore the paranoia.
> 
> There is obviously still love, history, deep personal knowledge, or whatever you want to call it, between you.
> 
> Most people who have affairs do not snap out of it when they get caught. There is a period of denial - the fog - that can go on for a while. Her actions are consistent with a person under a great deal of stress, who's reacting to a chain reaction of events in her life and is thrashing about.
> 
> All the talk of leaving you, belittling you, and the other BS with the OM during the affair was just affair BS. Addict talk. Take it was a grain of salt. It seems to me that that, and the lying, is the tape that runs in your head and the basis for the vitriol you feel. Where it's just normal affair behaviour and not indicative of mental problem or an evil nature. And it wasn't really about you at all. People demonize their spouses in order to be in moral congruence when they do bad things - so demonizing you was needed for her to cheat, or she couldn't deal with herself.
> 
> Look at how addicts act when they are on their drug and how reformed addicts can be normal, loving , functional people. Affairs aren't much different.
> 
> You may not want to get back with her, which is fine, but your paranoia, and the thought this was somehow planned to manipulate you, or a trap to fabricate a spousal abuse claim is complete craziness. Stress probably triggered the seizures. It was good you were there to help. It was the right thing to do. You can still act in a loving way towards this woman, without choosing to have her in your life. I think taking a position of anger, revenge and hatred that so many are subtly advocating here, is moral wrong and will hurt you when you come out the other side of this. Just try to do the right thing and don't think about it too hard.


Words of Wisdom :iagree::iagree::iagree::smthumbup:


----------



## Shamwow

I admit that I had wondered on the way over "is this what it seems on the surface?" When I pulled up I looked around for cars of friends that I might recognize, I regretted that I hadn't brought a VAR, etc. Hell, I even looked out the window a few times to make sure someone wasn't taking my car once I went inside. But I honestly was not expecting an ambush here. Just keeping my eyes open.

But once I saw her I knew she just needed help and as much as I have no reason to be nice to her, this was not a matter of nice. Just not the type of person to respond to a message like that by saying "Ambulance on the way. Good luck." I'm no saint, but I do care enough to help her in a serious situation.

Even though I was in full-on Mk II mode, I felt relief that we could be in the same room and be at ease. Not at ease over the affair and lying, cuz damn...but at ease over the reality of me being gone setting in, and knowing that it's at least possible (only saying possible here guys) to end this on a less sour note.

Helping her up on the couch, and then cleaning/disinfecting the wound on the back of her head required me to make contact, touch her hair and act in a caring way. It was hard. But it was also natural, prob because the craziness was taken out of the equation, given the circumstances...and let's be honest, I'm used to taking care of her when she needed it. Kinda like neighbors fighting on opposite sides of the Civil War, helping the other when injured.

I'm sorry it had to be over an injury, but I can't think of a more natural way to make contact for the first time after such a horrific period (instead of getting together to pore over debts and argue about affair expenses being reimbursed to me, etc). So I'm thankful for that.

And no worries folks, I'm not going soft. I have been expecting face to face contact for a week or two now in some capacity. She has still shown no remorse or even mentioned what she did to me and our marriage, and whether or not it may have been a bad thing. Today she thanked me many times for helping her and taking care of her. I said "you're welcome" once, the rest of them I either nodded or changed the subject. She apologized for keeping me from my work (to which I said "I'll be fine"). She even asked if I'd like to stay for some pizza that she had ordered while I was there (I got the door when it came, as she was couch-bound). I said no thanks, I have to get back. Without any kind of actual apology for the bunker buster she dropped on our marriage, I can't be gotten to...won't let that happen.

If she starts calling me asking for help with non-life threating issues, my response will not be the same as today. But I appreciated the civility. And yes, I will hold onto the email.


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## F-102

Sounds good, bro!


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## Shamwow

One more thing...while there I asked to use her laptop to look up a few things about the head wound (make sure I cleaned it right, as I am no MD). She said sure. I asked for the password. She gave it. And there I was sitting in the chair across the room from her, with the screen facing away from her, and her not being able to move.

I could have scanned emails, I could've grabbed the most recent backup text log and emailed it to myself, whatever. I thought about it, but I didn't do it. I looked up what I said I was going to look up and then set the laptop back down on the table.

Can only look at that as a good thing....let's hear it for 180.


----------



## aug

Dadof3 said:


> Wow Sham. Wow.


I get it.


----------



## Shamwow

aug said:


> I get it.


Me too, well played Dad.


----------



## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> W emails from iPad today saying Help, can't move, back killing me. Think I had a seizure. Can't get to phone. Please come.
> 
> I replied You want an ambulance? She said No. I told her I'd come over.
> 
> She is epileptic, but hasn't had a seizure in 15 years. With no phone I had to go. She did have a seizure and fell down the basement stairs, blood all in her hair and on the floor. Was able to get her to a couch, and can't convince her to go to the hospital. They will give her pain meds and tell her to rest, she says. I helped get a few things in front of her, like water, Aleve, some food and her phone.
> 
> We've talked about random things, it's been pleasant, though I have no intention of staying the rest of the day and night to wait on her.
> 
> Control play? Doubt it. Test to see if i care if she lives or dies? Maybe. But I felt it was right. First time we've spoken in person since I left. In the interest of civility, I think it was good, and tbh I do care if she lives or dies, I just don't care to be her buddy or stay married to her. She's gonna try to get a gf to help her tonight, maybe stay with her.
> 
> She looks like hell, but blood will do that. Odd day. Still there right now, have to leave to get work done soon.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know there is a lot of paranoia talk on this and I am as guitly as the next.... however....

Just watch out for a future police report saying you abused her. You were at the house and there is blood and everything present to back up the story. 

Just sayin...

Q~


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## Catherine602

I know it is paranoid but I agree you should be cautious. She has acted irrationally in the past and seems to want to be difficult. One saving grace is that you contacted a friend to stay with her and she is likely to be truthful at this point. The friend can back up your account. 

Also, I think you should inform her parents which is another insurance, besides, it is the responsible thing to do. It also gets her the help she needs. The fact that she has had a breakthrough sizure after so many years may indicate that she is not taking meds and the drinking is affecting her. Get her parents involved to monitor her. I think you will feel good about your self if you do what is prudent to help her. 

She regrets what she has done in contrast to appearances, she is suffering for it and it will be for a long time. She gave up everything - a great guy and a faithful loving man for a cheater who cared nothing for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Catherine602 said:


> I know it is paranoid but I agree you should be cautious. She has acted irrationally in the past and seems to want to be difficult. One saving grace is that you contacted a friend to stay with her and she is likely to be truthful at this point. The friend can back up your account.
> 
> Also, I think you should inform her parents which is another insurance, besides, it is the responsible thing to do. It also gets her the help she needs. The fact that she has had a breakthrough sizure after so many years may indicate that she is not taking meds and the drinking is affecting her. Get her parents involved to monitor her. I think you will feel good about your self if you do what is prudent to help her.
> 
> She regrets what she has done in contrast to appearances, she is suffering for it and it will be for a long time. She gave up everything - a great guy and a faithful loving man for a cheater who cared nothing for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She did say she has not been taking her meds regularly lately. Perhaps due to stress/depression/not giving a crap? Not sure, but she took one while I was there. She always takes that pill like clockwork at night before bed. But as you know, I can't speak for the last month, as I've been gone. Assuming it was definitely a seizure (I wasn't there when it happened, so I can only go by what I saw at the house and how she was acting) she clearly needs to be taking them daily. Alcohol may have been a factor though. She could have been really over the edge and fallen down the stairs with the same result. Either way, she was hurt pretty bad. Guess it doesn't matter, as far as my involvement today.

Also, she just texted me 10 hrs later "Thanks again for helping me"

Between that and the email I don't think I have to worry about her fabricating a story about why I was at the house, and what happened.


----------



## Anubis

Got a suggestion for you Sham. It could help with any future events. Get a 'Looxcie LX2 Wearable Video Cam for iPhone and Android'. It's a video recorder that clips on to your ear, much like a bluetooth headset. It weighs less than an ounce and can record up to 4 hours depending on resolution. If an 'emergency' comes up, just put it on while in the car driving over, and you'll have a record from your point of view.

I just got one from Amazon to record the next time I pick up my kids from my ex (we're in separate states now, so it's once a month). Last time she surprised me by changing the pick-up location at the last minute on me, and both her 'boyfriends' were there with her trying to make it uncomfortable. And since then, we've had a rather nasty tiff involving lawyers over child support and visitation. My guard is up, and I consider the cost of the device cheap for the peace of mind it will give me.

Besides, I'm sure your inner techo-geek would love it.


----------



## Dadof3

"Dad" Madden here for the play by play highlight analysis:



Shamwow said:


> *W emails from iPad today saying Help, can't move, back killing me. Think I had a seizure. Can't get to phone. Please come.*
> 
> *I replied You want an ambulance? She said No. I told her I'd come over.*
> 
> She is epileptic, but hasn't had a seizure in 15 years. With no phone I had to go. She did have a seizure and fell down the basement stairs, blood all in her hair and on the floor. Was able to get her to a couch, and can't convince her to go to the hospital. They will give her pain meds and tell her to rest, she says. I helped get a few things in front of her, like water, Aleve, some food and her phone.
> 
> We've talked about random things, it's been pleasant, though I have no intention of staying the rest of the day and night to wait on her.
> 
> Control play? Doubt it. Test to see if i care if she lives or dies? Maybe. But I felt it was right. First time we've spoken in person since I left. In the interest of civility, I think it was good, and tbh I do care if she lives or dies, I just don't care to be her buddy or stay married to her. She's gonna try to get a gf to help her tonight, maybe stay with her.
> 
> She looks like hell, but blood will do that. Odd day. Still there right now, have to leave to get work done soon.


Exhibit 1 - An emergency where the perpetrator has a fall due to a seizure. Interesting that no phone was in range to call 911, yet an Ipad with email was within range of the perpetrator whereas an email could be written to Sham. Hmm. Coincidental? Possibly.



Shamwow said:


> She could have emailed many people, but I'm the only one with keys to get in the house.


Things that make you say "Hmmmmm...."



Shamwow said:


> I admit that I had wondered on the way over "is this what it seems on the surface?" When I pulled up I looked around for cars of friends that I might recognize, I regretted that I hadn't brought a VAR, etc. Hell, I even looked out the window a few times to make sure someone wasn't taking my car once I went inside. But I honestly was not expecting an ambush here. Just keeping my eyes open.
> 
> But once I saw her I knew she just needed help and as much as I have no reason to be nice to her, this was not a matter of nice. Just not the type of person to respond to a message like that by saying "Ambulance on the way. Good luck." I'm no saint, but I do care enough to help her in a serious situation.
> 
> Even though I was in full-on Mk II mode, I felt relief that we could be in the same room and be at ease. Not at ease over the affair and lying, cuz damn...but at ease over the reality of me being gone setting in, and knowing that it's at least possible (only saying possible here guys) to end this on a less sour note.
> 
> Helping her up on the couch, and then cleaning/disinfecting the wound on the back of her head required me to make contact, touch her hair and act in a caring way. It was hard. But it was also natural, prob because the craziness was taken out of the equation, given the circumstances...and let's be honest, I'm used to taking care of her when she needed it. Kinda like neighbors fighting on opposite sides of the Civil War, helping the other when injured.
> 
> I'm sorry it had to be over an injury, but I can't think of a more natural way to make contact for the first time after such a horrific period (instead of getting together to pore over debts and argue about affair expenses being reimbursed to me, etc). So I'm thankful for that.
> 
> And no worries folks, I'm not going soft. I have been expecting face to face contact for a week or two now in some capacity. She has still shown no remorse or even mentioned what she did to me and our marriage, and whether or not it may have been a bad thing. *Today she thanked me many times for helping her and taking care of her.* I said "you're welcome" once, the rest of them I either nodded or changed the subject. She apologized for keeping me from my work (to which I said "I'll be fine"). _*She even asked if I'd like to stay for some pizza that she had ordered while I was there (I got the door when it came, as she was couch-bound)*_. I said no thanks, I have to get back. *Without any kind of actual apology for the bunker buster she dropped on our marriage, I can't be gotten to...*won't let that happen.


Exhibit #2- Damsel in Distress move. Where have I seen this movie? 

Sidebar: I think if Sham had stayed, there may have been a convo about the affair - if Sham had pushed it. Let me explain why I think this with the next few comments:

I believe she wanted you to check on her and DB McGee. The fact you didn't will be perplexing to her. 



Shamwow said:


> One more thing...*while there I asked to use her laptop to look up a few things about the head wound (make sure I cleaned it right, as I am no MD). She said sure. I asked for the password. She gave it. And there I was sitting in the chair across the room from her, with the screen facing away from her, and her not being able to move*.
> 
> *I could have scanned emails, I could've grabbed the most recent backup text log and emailed it to myself, whatever. I thought about it, but I didn't do it.* I looked up what I said I was going to look up and then set the laptop back down on the table.
> 
> Can only look at that as a good thing....let's hear it for 180.


Way to go Sham Mk II!

Exhibit #3 - "Feigned transparency" - Without so much as saying it, she was giving sham the opportunity here to check on her and DB McGee - good on Sham - he didn't look and give her any indication that he cared anymore (WOW Sham! WOW!)



Shamwow said:


> *She did say she has not been taking her meds regularly lately. Perhaps due to stress/depression/not giving a crap? Not sure, but she took one while I was there. ** She always takes that pill like clockwork at night before bed*. But as you know, I can't speak for the last month, as I've been gone. Assuming it was definitely a seizure (I wasn't there when it happened, so I can only go by what I saw at the house and how she was acting) she clearly needs to be taking them daily. *Alcohol may have been a factor though.* *She could have been really over the edge and fallen down the stairs with the same result. * Either way, she was hurt pretty bad. Guess it doesn't matter, as far as my involvement today.
> 
> *Also, she just texted me 10 hrs later "Thanks again for helping me"*
> 
> Between that and the email I don't think I have to worry about her fabricating a story about why I was at the house, and what happened.


Exhibit #4 - Motive. 

Judge: I move that Ms. Shamwow is attempting an R with apparent rugsweeping.

Objection! She is trying to frame Shamwow and get his rear-end thrown in jail!

Overruled - She has the motive and opportunity to R with Sham - using relationship familiarity to affect Sham Mk II's new mental shielding and reign Mr. Sham back in with more or less NO accountability other than the feigned transparency.

Sham - You performed well today. Good job.

My honest assessment here? While u aren't going R soon, I suspect she will keep these interactions up in an attempt to reign your feelings back to her, possibly without an accounting for her actions. I think the opportunity to discuss the infidelity was present today, yet may have been punctuated by scattered showers of fog and trickle truth. 

Steel yourself. You one the day, but she knows how to press your buttons. Not saying her fall was intentional, yet I've fallen on stairs / my head lots of times and I didn't split my scalp open.

Ever wonder why she didn't want an ambulance / doctor? A trained professional could've verified if said injury was self-inflicted or not. 

Head injuries are ALWAYS really bloody when they happen, but at the same time if a nasty spill REALLY happened, she really should have full concussion workup done as brain bleeds can happen when a person doesn't realize it.

I'm sure you can research ways to give yourself a relatively painless - but bloody head injury that is non-life threatening to elicit sympathy.

Just consider this in your future dealings with her and you may have to have a "cut the bullcrap" session if u r serious about the D.

Bravo though, definitely Alpha control today. Don't let her bring out the Beta too much though. She doesn't respect that part of you as much....

Just saying!


----------



## seeking sanity

Sham, good luck. I can't read these comments anymore.


----------



## Shamwow

seeking sanity said:


> Sham, good luck. I can't read these comments anymore.





Dad - *thoroughly* enjoyed reading your play by play. Madden would be proud. But there's no way she would give herself a head injury to get me to come over. I really believe she just fell man...whether seizure or drunken slip, she just fell, hard. It wasn't a knife cut or anything, it was a hard hit on something blunt.

And I totally think she should go to the doctor stat. Told her so many times. 

But disagreement on that point or not...that was one awesome reply, Sat night, made me smile. Seriously. Thanks


----------



## HelloooNurse

Just so you know, alcohol makes anti-seizure medication a lot less effective. If that's the sort of meds she was on and she has been drinking a lot, then thats probably why she had a seizure.


----------



## Stonewall

HelloooNurse said:


> Just so you know, alcohol makes anti-seizure medication a lot less effective. If that's the sort of meds she was on and she has been drinking a lot, then thats probably why she had a seizure.


:iagree:

Nurse is right and following this from the start Ms Sham will put etoh away in a heartbeat. 

One other thing; I'm not a big conspiracy theory person but my spidey senses tell me you need to be on the look out for an evolving "damsel in distress" play. May be wrong......just saying!


----------



## Chaparral

Sham,

If you don't mind going back a bit, could you say how long Mrs. Sham had been on this job on the road? Did you have a problem with her having to travel and be gone this much and how did she like the travel? Would she have quit the job if you had asked her?

Also, have you ever had a position where you had to travel?


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> Sham,
> 
> If you don't mind going back a bit, could you say how long Mrs. Sham had been on this job on the road? Did you have a problem with her having to travel and be gone this much and how did she like the travel? Would she have quit the job if you had asked her?
> 
> Also, have you ever had a position where you had to travel?


She started traveling about 3 years ago, but at that time it was very rare. 3-4 times that year, and for a week at a time. On her first trip she told me she didn't know if she could handle being apart from me, as we'd hardly spent a night apart in 5 years prior.

Then 2 years ago she got in with a client that had her traveling closer to 5-7 days a months. Then about 1 year ago she got a 4 month job in a major city, and I moved there with her for that time. Then a few 2 week jobs, a few weeks home and them BAM...10 weeks traveling from town to town, no possibility for me to visit her easily or settle in with her like the 4mo job a year ago. So it really kinda ratcheted up in the last year, just that the travel was almost constant and the lengths of time were growing.

I was becoming very vocal about wanting her to take more time off, or find something that keeps her in town more often. I certainly didn't want to control her career, as she was finding a lot of success. When things got "weird", and we were talking relationship more often, she knew I was not thrilled at any travel anymore, and I was asking her to take a few months off, because we need time to settle back in before she left again, concerned about not fully reconnecting and then she's on the road and it's really hard then.

She has turned down a few jobs based on me suggesting she not take it. But it was usually just because it didn't look like a good job, and she was on the fence herself. I used to visit her occasionally when she waws out of town too, so that made it easier, but that basically came off the table on 10wk trip starting in April. So it became much harder then, and she knew my thoughts on that.

I travel a few times a year for work, but it's usually not for long (4-5 days), and I'm generally accessible by phone/text or she came with.


----------



## Shamwow

Any tips on the damsel in distress angle? Wont let her die (obviously), and it's nice to have some communication lines open, but clearly don't wanna be sucked in by pity. Why would she want to pull that if she wants out too? A few comments about her maybe opening up if I had stayed longer yesterday...perhaps she sees this as an opportunity to talk to me for a completely valid reason. If that's the case and it happens more, puts me in a tough spot because I WANT to have that conversation with her, just don't want to initiate it because that takes hand away from me, and undoes a lot of my recent posturing while moving on.

Maybe to give herself more time to get her financial house in order before it's final? I mean, she's the one pushing for the house sale asap, but then again, we've been talking about getting out of that house for years, kinda trapped. And getting out would ease her financial strain, even if it tarnishes her credit.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

I think the seizure was for real brought on by the stress of what her life has become.
It`s perfectly natural that Sham would be her first call for help.
It`s what she knows and she doesn`t have another support system in place so her only option is fall back on the status quo which is seriously changing right before her eyes.

Think about it and you`ll see she`s taken some very heavy hits.

Sham left, is divorcing.
OM probably went NC, due to Shams exposure to OMW.
No money.
No dogs.
Living alone.
Stuck in mortgage (as far as she knows)
Job must kinda suck now considering what happened.
Friends can`t be too thrilled with her.

I think she`s coming farther out of the fog and is a bit lost and confused.

Sucks to be her.

I think you may see the possibility for R before this divorce is final.
Don`t know if you should take it or not, this woman's pride is a serious roadblock.


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Any tips on the damsel in distress angle? Wont let her die (obviously), and it's nice to have some communication lines open, but clearly don't wanna be sucked in by pity. Why would she want to pull that if she wants out too? A few comments about her maybe opening up if I had stayed longer yesterday...perhaps she sees this as an opportunity to talk to me for a completely valid reason. If that's the case and it happens more, puts me in a tough spot because I WANT to have that conversation with her, just don't want to initiate it because that takes hand away from me, and undoes a lot of my recent posturing while moving on.
> 
> Maybe to give herself more time to get her financial house in order before it's final? I mean, she's the one pushing for the house sale asap, but then again, we've been talking about getting out of that house for years, kinda trapped. And getting out would ease her financial strain, even if it tarnishes her credit.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Give her the key back and she has to make emergency arrangements with friends or relatives. Next time call the ambulance (they have ways of getting in the house). Might have to harden heart to her 'plight'.
Unless you welcome the opportunity to get reacquainted. This isn't rude. Maybe she's out of the 'fog' and with a little softness from you (such as tending to her wound), she will be ready to open up as to what the hell happened with her. Maybe she's back or the kindness from you will allow her some vulnerability.
If you didn't care, you could have handled things differently (ambulance). But you do. And that's ok - that's even good. You would hand over the house key so that can't happen again.
She lacks the emotional maturity to meet this head on and discuss what happened - so she's creating these situations (last one was probably not created, but taking advantage of a bad situation).
This is her reaching out. If you keep responding, it's to accept this and move forward.
Hey you were married to her and love(d) her. It's a chance for you to move forward too while both of you saving face. She doesn't show weakness and you don't either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cypress

Sham,

I don't think there is a conspiracy planned by WW. She may be regretting her past actions, and wanting to get the comfort and security of the marriage back. She may even want to reconcile. 

But the old marriage is dead for both of you. If you happened to reconcile, neither of you will trust the other. She will not trust that you wont leave again, you will not trust that she wont cheat again.

I would have a heart to heart discussion about the future for both of you. She needs to know that you never be more than a sympathetic friend for her. You won't be doing honey do's for her, but will help out for true emergencies. 

Cypress


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Any tips on the damsel in distress angle? Wont let her die (obviously), and it's nice to have some communication lines open, but clearly don't wanna be sucked in by pity. Why would she want to pull that if she wants out too? A few comments about her maybe opening up if I had stayed longer yesterday...perhaps she sees this as an opportunity to talk to me for a completely valid reason. If that's the case and it happens more, puts me in a tough spot because I WANT to have that conversation with her, just don't want to initiate it because that takes hand away from me, and undoes a lot of my recent posturing while moving on.
> 
> Maybe to give herself more time to get her financial house in order before it's final? I mean, she's the one pushing for the house sale asap, but then again, we've been talking about getting out of that house for years, kinda trapped. And getting out would ease her financial strain, even if it tarnishes her credit.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Based on this info, I would more read her actions as her moving forward with getting out of there (as you two had already planned) and hoping someone you will let her move in with you.

Those actions COULD be construed as wanting to move on.... question is move on to what or where or who. My money is the who is you, the where is with you, and the what is BLANKET absolution of her infidelity.

Just another two cents.


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## F-102

Sham, maybe you can get in touch with one of your mutual friends or even one of her friends, and have them check up on her for now (in case the head injury is more serious than what was thought), and to keep tabs on her, so that she won't do something drastic.

And, perhaps, she is not looking for R, but she may very well be resigning herself to the fact that the M will most likely not be saved (your errand of mercy may have confirmed it to her), and she has decided to D amicably.


----------



## Stonewall

Shamwow said:


> Any tips on the damsel in distress angle? Wont let her die (obviously), and it's nice to have some communication lines open, but clearly don't wanna be sucked in by pity. Why would she want to pull that if she wants out too? A few comments about her maybe opening up if I had stayed longer yesterday...perhaps she sees this as an opportunity to talk to me for a completely valid reason. If that's the case and it happens more, puts me in a tough spot because I WANT to have that conversation with her, just don't want to initiate it because that takes hand away from me, and undoes a lot of my recent posturing while moving on.
> 
> Maybe to give herself more time to get her financial house in order before it's final? I mean, she's the one pushing for the house sale asap, but then again, we've been talking about getting out of that house for years, kinda trapped. And getting out would ease her financial strain, even if it tarnishes her credit.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sham,

I just wonder if reality is setting in and if she is trying to open options by so doing. IDK 

Just throwing out food for thought!


----------



## MrQuatto

i'd contact the couple that were involved when you got the lasst of your stuff. You were both there that day with them. They know what's going on in the relationship. 

It would paint you in a good, caring light to them as well as possibly give you a fall back position if things turn for the worse.

Q~


----------



## Shamwow

MrQuatto said:


> i'd contact the couple that were involved when you got the lasst of your stuff. You were both there that day with them. They know what's going on in the relationship.
> 
> It would paint you in a good, caring light to them as well as possibly give you a fall back position if things turn for the worse.
> 
> Q~


Contact them to check on her while she's hurt, or to ask about what h is going on in her head? Don't really wanna open myself up to being the guy asking what's up. And I'm not supposed to care anyway, as I'm 180 man and put that vibe out there in any social situation (as well as when I'm alone, but clearly that part is easier said than done). She's been texting random normal "nice" things today, as if I'm her buddy. Trying not to respond, but after opening communication I don't want to just go dark again. Pick my battles, I guess. Just feeling weaker at the moment and don't want to do anything stupid. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## calif_hope

Sham....
NOT WEAKER.......you did a human thing. You can just ignore her and go dark as you say and you certainly can be a buddy to her. Your going to have to let her know that you were glad you could be their for her during her emergency - but that you can't for both your sakes be her buddy...tell her to communicate only on financial and legal matters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Contact them to check on her while she's hurt, or to ask about what h is going on in her head? Don't really wanna open myself up to being the guy asking what's up. And I'm not supposed to care anyway, as I'm 180 man and put that vibe out there in any social situation (as well as when I'm alone, but clearly that part is easier said than done). She's been texting random normal "nice" things today, as if I'm her buddy. Trying not to respond, but after opening communication I don't want to just go dark again. Pick my battles, I guess. Just feeling weaker at the moment and don't want to do anything stupid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I might be off the mark here but I don't think she has a chance to hex you now. LOL String her along and see where she goes with this. I'm pretty sure you can always go dark again if she becomes witchy. 

You're the quarterback now and you're running this show.


----------



## Catherine602

Sham based on recent events, I think your wife is in phychological pain and that is driving much of what she is saying and doing. She appears to be alone now, the friends who were egging her on are no longer there, the DB OM has bailed and she has been dropped out of the clouds. 

From what you describe of her upbringing, caring personality and the lovung marriage you had, her involvement in this affair really puzzles me. I can only think that being away from you and having to make the adjustments in her personality to succeed in a job that may have been a difficult adjustment for her. 

The drinking now and during travel may have been a type of medicating herself to manage the demands of her job. I don't understand cheaters or what happens to them psychologically and I don't understand how a person can love and hurt the person they love. However, I am assuming it does happen. The talk about leaving you may have been a fantasy persona that helped her to continue to travel and be successful. 

In my heart of hearts I think you should use your knowing to decide what you want to do. Trust yourself, you are a good man and you don't need artificial tentents and rules to go by. You know what you should do. All of these poster will not be with you a year from now and you will have to rely on yourself and your resources. From what I see, you have reserves of character and strength that are uncommon. 

I think you will be able to work through what you and your wife should do. I also think that you can guild her to have faith in herself and to accept the good in her life. It would be a gift to a person you have known for a long time and that you love. Not many men would have the stregth of character to do it but that is where they are. 

This may seem unconnected but it is like the rebuilding of Japan after the war. We did what was probably unthinkable but the rewards have been second to none. Like power the US aquired through the challenge WW 2, You are at a point where you have finally allowed the lion within you to awake. If you approach your wife with the gift of R, you will come from a place of strength not weakness that was you approach before. I wish you and your wife the very best and hope you will trust yourself and your new found stregth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

BTW have you contacted her parents yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

I have a theory on why the STBXW is acting the way she is - its the 180 - seriously. She has seen more MAN from Sham than she probably ever remembered before (they seem to forget after the first year or two of marriage). Lets face it, I think men tend to get "domesticated" or betaized after the honeymoon. I have found the premise of Athol's MMSLP to be true, that a woman doesn't respect a man who gives his b*lls away.

A properly executed 180 (or game) will draw a disinterested partner that still has feelings back to the person doing the 180 (as Sham has). I actually believe now that if Sham stayed the same guy he was when she left for her last trip, I don't think any of these interactions after the affair would be taking place.

IMHO, Sham's wife's actions are pointing towards R, because of his 180, not in spite of it.

I think that if D is still in Sham's heart, he'll be in a similar boat as Morturi, who D'd his wife, although he still loved her, and even forgave her.


----------



## Mike11

Catherine602 said:


> Sham based on recent events, I think your wife is in phychological pain and that is driving much of what she is saying and doing. She appears to be alone now, the friends who were egging her on are no longer there, the DB OM has bailed and she has been dropped out of the clouds.
> 
> From what you describe of her upbringing, caring personality and the lovung marriage you had, her involvement in this affair really puzzles me. I can only think that being away from you and having to make the adjustments in her personality to succeed in a job that may have been a difficult adjustment for her.
> 
> The drinking now and during travel may have been a type of medicating herself to manage the demands of her job. I don't understand cheaters or what happens to them psychologically and I don't understand how a person can love and hurt the person they love. However, I am assuming it does happen. The talk about leaving you may have been a fantasy persona that helped her to continue to travel and be successful.
> 
> In my heart of hearts I think you should use your knowing to decide what you want to do. Trust yourself, you are a good man and you don't need artificial tentents and rules to go by. You know what you should do. All of these poster will not be with you a year from now and you will have to rely on yourself and your resources. From what I see, you have reserves of character and strength that are uncommon.
> 
> I think you will be able to work through what you and your wife should do. I also think that you can guild her to have faith in herself and to accept the good in her life. It would be a gift to a person you have known for a long time and that you love. Not many men would have the stregth of character to do it but that is where they are.
> 
> This may seem unconnected but it is like the rebuilding of Japan after the war. We did what was probably unthinkable but the rewards have been second to none. Like power the US aquired through the challenge WW 2, You are at a point where you have finally allowed the lion within you to awake. If you approach your wife with the gift of R, you will come from a place of strength not weakness that was you approach before. I wish you and your wife the very best and hope you will trust yourself and your new found stregth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Priceless:smthumbup:


----------



## morituri

Anything is possible, even R, but is it realistic? If R is extremely hard even in the ideal of situations, extremely remorseful DS(WS) willing to carry the heavy load of R, how much harder is it to R with a DS(WS) who is not only far from being remorseful but steadfastly refusing to do anything but rug sweep the affair? 

Sham you must resist the temptation to fool yourself into seeing something that isn't actually there. Her actions, and not the speculations of others, are what you should use to judge your W's true motives.


----------



## Shamwow

morituri said:


> Anything is possible, even R, but is it realistic? If R is extremely hard even in the ideal of situations, extremely remorseful DS(WS) willing to carry the heavy load of R, how much harder is it to R with a DS(WS) who is not only far from being remorseful but steadfastly refusing to do anything but rug sweep the affair?
> 
> Sham you must resist the temptation to fool yourself into seeing something that isn't actually there. Her actions, and not the speculations of others, are what you should use to judge your W's true motives.


I will resist the urge to create my own fantasy, reality has been my unfortunate friend lately...but it is not easy. I will also resist the temptation to sweep my own thoughts under the rug, as they are really all any of us has. She is in a vulnerable position and is playing nice. Red flag? Sure. I'm pretty good at seeing them these days. I'm gonna go with my gut and be myself (Mk II) and assume I can do no wrong as long as I stay confident.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

morituri said:


> Anything is possible, even R, but is it realistic? If R is extremely hard even in the ideal of situations, extremely remorseful DS(WS) willing to carry the heavy load of R, how much harder is it to R with a DS(WS) who is not only far from being remorseful but steadfastly refusing to do anything but rug sweep the affair?
> 
> Sham you must resist the temptation to fool yourself into seeing something that isn't actually there. Her actions, and not the speculations of others, are what you should use to judge your W's true motives.



Sham will not know this until they really start (if they ever do) communicating person to person. Texting and emailing simply can't be considered real communication since one can't read the emotions/truthfulness of the other person.


----------



## Dadof3

morituri said:


> Anything is possible, even R, but is it realistic? If R is extremely hard even in the ideal of situations, extremely remorseful DS(WS) willing to carry the heavy load of R, how much harder is it to R with a DS(WS) who is not only far from being remorseful but steadfastly refusing to do anything but rug sweep the affair?
> 
> Sham you must resist the temptation to fool yourself into seeing something that isn't actually there. Her actions, and not the speculations of others, are what you should use to judge your W's true motives.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> Contact them to check on her while she's hurt, or to ask about what h is going on in her head? Don't really wanna open myself up to being the guy asking what's up. And I'm not supposed to care anyway, as I'm 180 man and put that vibe out there in any social situation (as well as when I'm alone, but clearly that part is easier said than done). She's been texting random normal "nice" things today, as if I'm her buddy. Trying not to respond, but after opening communication I don't want to just go dark again. Pick my battles, I guess. Just feeling weaker at the moment and don't want to do anything stupid.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just to check on her from the injury.


----------



## Shamwow

MrQuatto said:


> Just to check on her from the injury.


Already done. Talked with her gf today after she got back in town. She was already aware of the situation and is planning to take her to the doctor tomorrow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

Catherine602 said:


> She regrets what she has done in contrast to appearances, she is suffering for it and it will be for a long time. She gave up everything - a great guy and a faithful loving man for a cheater who cared nothing for her.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

How prophetic Catherine's words were in light of your W's recent accident and how your actions to come to her aid vindicate them.


----------



## lordmayhem

Classy and humane move Shamwow. Be cautious, but not paranoid, not everything is a power play, manipulation, or a conspiracy. And I'm usually the one looking for these things. Like Catherine and morturi are pointing out, she's basically putting on a brave front, that's all. It's just that everything isn't going according to plan like she thought it would. There's probably remorse there, but she's never going to show it to you. She's not going to file a police report, you already have the email asking for help, to back you up. Just don't forget the VAR next time.


----------



## Shamwow

Catherine602 said:


> BTW have you contacted her parents yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I haven't. Not sure why. But I guess we haven't spoken since I called them the day after I left, and they haven't gotten in touch with me either. I'm sure they'd be receptive to my contact, especially since it would be in regards to caring about their daughter's health, they are no doubt "staying out of it" out of respect...but just didn't make the call the other day...don't ask me. Still might.

My W mentioned the other day when I was over at the house that she had to borrow money from them, a little twinge of guilt trip because I know they can't really afford it (really the only bit of guilt she she invoked while I was there...she was judging my empathy I presume. I said "sorry to hear that" and changed the subject)...we have actually given *them* substantial financial support many times in the last few years. But in my mind I know she is the one who put herself (and now them) in this situation, and it's not my fault.

Think of the thousands we'd have in the bank right now if this had never happened. Her choices, her results.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> No, I haven't. Not sure why. But I guess we haven't spoken since I called them the day after I left, and they haven't gotten in touch with me either. I'm sure they'd be receptive to my contact, especially since it would be in regards to caring about their daughter's health, they are no doubt "staying out of it" out of respect...but just didn't make the call the other day...don't ask me. Still might.
> 
> My W mentioned the other day when I was over at the house that she had to borrow money from them, a little twinge of guilt trip because I know they can't really afford it (really the only bit of guilt she she invoked while I was there...she was judging my empathy I presume. I said "sorry to hear that" and changed the subject)...we have actually given *them* substantial financial support many times in the last few years. But in my mind I know she is the one who put herself (and now them) in this situation, and it's not my fault.
> 
> Think of the thousands we'd have in the bank right now if this had never happened. Her choices, her results.


Aw heck - you resisted a chance to rub her nose in it a little.... Shucks!

I'd have had a hard time saying....... "All that money you blew on having sex with DB McGee.... are you saying it wasn't worth it?"

Either way, good job. :smthumbup::lol::smthumbup:


----------



## harusty

Sham,

If her accident would have been fatal, you would probably be in jail right now. You did the right thing! I consider myself a pretty tough guy but I don't think that I could inflict a head injury on myself in order to manipulate someone.


----------



## MrQuatto

harusty said:


> Sham,
> 
> If her accident would have been fatal, you would probably be in jail right now. You did the right thing! I consider myself a pretty tough guy but I don't think that I could inflict a head injury on myself in order to manipulate someone.


I may be thick here but I fail to see how he would be in jail if the injury was fatal? Unless he was a suspect in actually causing the injury?

Not sure I am following here.

Q~


----------



## harusty

MrQuatto said:


> I may be thick here but I fail to see how he would be in jail if the injury was fatal? Unless he was a suspect in actually causing the injury?
> 
> Not sure I am following here.
> 
> Q~


OK, she fell down a flight of stairs, sustained a blunt force head injury and her estranged husband was the one to discover her at the bottom of the stairs, covered in blood. This is just what I invisioned in my head when I read his post. My point, I guess, is that she fell down a flight of stairs and injured herself and called him for help. It was the right thing to do to go and help her out. I just don't see someone doing that intentionaly.


----------



## F-102

MrQuatto said:


> I may be thick here but I fail to see how he would be in jail if the injury was fatal? Unless he was a suspect in actually causing the injury?
> 
> Not sure I am following here.
> 
> Q~


He would definitely be a "person of interest". But there is a legitimate concern here. My great aunt's H fell down a flight of stairs and broke his neck while she was at work, and despite the fact that she had witnesses to say where she was at the time, and that there was no discord in the M, homicide detectives grilled her for almost a whole day, showing her pic after gory pic of his body at the bottom of the stairs. And for days, she was brought in for more questions, more gory slideshows, until forensics and the coroner finally released their report proving that it was an accident. 

A lawyer told her later that this is routine for the police, because it "looked" suspicious-and that homicide was showing her those pics over and over again in hopes that she would break down and confess, and then the DA would look good, getting another "open and shut" conviction under his belt.

Police are allowed to use ANY means (i.e., trick in the book) to get a confession.


----------



## harusty

F-102 said:


> He would definitely be a "person of interest". But there is a legitimate concern here. My great aunt's H fell down a flight of stairs and broke his neck while she was at work, and despite the fact that she had witnesses to say where she was at the time, and that there was no discord in the M, homicide detectives grilled her for almost a whole day, showing her pic after gory pic of his body at the bottom of the stairs. And for days, she was brought in for more questions, more gory slideshows, until forensics and the coroner finally released their report proving that it was an accident.
> 
> A lawyer told her later that this is routine for the police, because it "looked" suspicious-and that homicide was showing her those pics over and over again in hopes that she would break down and confess, and then the DA would look good, getting another "open and shut" conviction under his belt.
> 
> Police are allowed to use ANY means (i.e., trick in the book) to get a confession.



This was just morbid speculation on my part. I wish that I hadn't posted it. This is how my mom died and they ran my devastated dad through the ringer for months. Sorry Sham, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, LOL. If my ex wife called me with a medical emergency I would drop everything and go help her. She's not my favorite person in the world but a little mercy will cover a multitude of sins.


----------



## Dadof3

Its quiet. Did Sham go dark on the TAM board? LOL!


----------



## tacoma

Dadof3 said:


> Its quiet. Did Sham go dark on the TAM board? LOL!


Lets hope he has better things to do.


----------



## Shamwow

Nope, didn't go dark. Just not much to report, and I'm also staring at a large stack of work to get out hopefully by tonight. It's getting smaller. Also been busy following clairebear's thread.

Talked with stbxw yesterday, her gf took her to the doc, and turns out she has 4 broken ribs and a bruised lung from her fall (as well as the knock on the head). She's on pain meds and happy, except for having to wear a brace for the ribs. I chose to offer to assist her over the next few days if she would like. She was thankful, said it was selfless and very kind of me. Told her not to get used to it. She actually laughed. 

As a result I've gotten a lot of communication from her, mostly via text as that's her new first language, all smiley and casual in nature. I admit it has messed with my general mood a bit, as having a sudden dose of empathy mixed in with the massive pile of pain of the last few months puts me in a different place at the moment. She has so far said she'll be fine, but thanks for the offer. But she has also joked about me "coming over some night" to enjoy her meds with her. She said one has my name on it. Told her it was duly noted. I've been generally friendly with any replies, short and to the point, but I certainly respond a lot more now that she's not texting me the equivalent of flinging her own feces at me. Training her to be a good girl through the divorce. If only I'd known this earlier, I may not be here...

But...beats the crazy. When I see a text from her I still expect it to be something like "Stole the tax s***, eh? Let's go there." But then it turns out to be "The guy did a great job on the basement. Looks amazing!". So I'm glad things are more amicable, but I've had to be on top of myself trying to maintain my Mk II. Getting easier to know what to do, just a new phase.

As for her maybe starting to come out of the fog and wanting to push for R...yeah. Still no apology or acknowledgement of wrongdoing anyway, so the point is moot. So no worries, I'm feeling softer towards her, but I expect very little. As you all know I should. And I know she's asked some of her girlfriends to keep her in mind if they have any single friends, because she's "a single gal now, lonely, and doesn't know what to do with all the freetime." Warm fuzzy feeling for me, huh. Ahh, the warmth of it all.


----------



## Shamwow

And 10 bucks says she asks me to bring the dogs for visit. I say today or tomorrow. Any takers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Just don't let empathy override your good judgement and you'll be fine.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Nope, didn't go dark. Just not much to report, and I'm also staring at a large stack of work to get out hopefully by tonight. It's getting smaller. Also been busy following clairebear's thread.
> 
> Talked with stbxw yesterday, her gf took her to the doc, and turns out she has 4 broken ribs and a bruised lung from her fall (as well as the knock on the head). She's on pain meds and happy, except for having to wear a brace for the ribs. I chose to offer to assist her over the next few days if she would like. She was thankful, said it was selfless and very kind of me. Told her not to get used to it. She actually laughed.
> 
> As a result I've gotten a lot of communication from her, mostly via text as that's her new first language, all smiley and casual in nature. I admit it has messed with my general mood a bit, as having a sudden dose of empathy mixed in with the massive pile of pain of the last few months puts me in a different place at the moment. She has so far said she'll be fine, but thanks for the offer. But she has also joked about me "coming over some night" to enjoy her meds with her. She said one has my name on it. Told her it was duly noted. I've been generally friendly with any replies, short and to the point, but I certainly respond a lot more now that she's not texting me the equivalent of flinging her own feces at me. Training her to be a good girl through the divorce. If only I'd known this earlier, I may not be here...
> 
> But...beats the crazy. When I see a text from her I still expect it to be something like "Stole the tax s***, eh? Let's go there." But then it turns out to be "The guy did a great job on the basement. Looks amazing!". So I'm glad things are more amicable, but I've had to be on top of myself trying to maintain my Mk II. Getting easier to know what to do, just a new phase.
> 
> As for her maybe starting to come out of the fog and wanting to push for R...yeah. Still no apology or acknowledgement of wrongdoing anyway, so the point is moot. So no worries, I'm feeling softer towards her, but I expect very little. As you all know I should. And I know she's asked some of her girlfriends to keep her in mind if they have any single friends, because she's "a single gal now, lonely, and doesn't know what to do with all the freetime." Warm fuzzy feeling for me, huh. Ahh, the warmth of it all.


I don't envy you Sham, but it sounds like to me you have a more accurate picture of whats going on in her mind. This is important. It should be easier to help you maintain your boundaries and start making plans for your new life. 

Sounds like you need to hang the the guys a bit more frequently, get your mind off of her. 

Glad to hear everything is ok and that you are still Sham Mk II.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> And 10 bucks says she asks me to bring the dogs for visit. I say today or tomorrow. Any takers?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, maybe not... 

She's still got her wiles about her (she wont want the dog - shes got a pill with your name on it.....) I would take the bet that its not today or tomorrow.


----------



## SadSamIAm

You are a strong man. I have never had to deal with this, but I think I would:

1) Take her up on her offer of sharing the meds
2) Have wild passionate sex with her?
3) Live the rest of my life wondering who she is cheating with

You are doing very well. You are being strong. Your best bet is to be polite to her until the divorce is final. You will find someone that you won't have to spend the rest of you life wondering if she is cheating.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Sounds like you need to hang the the guys a bit more frequently, get your mind off of her.
> 
> Glad to hear everything is ok and that you are still Sham Mk II.


I've actually been out with one friend or another almost every day since I moved into my apartment. Kinda nice...though I find myself having to consciously tell my mouth to shut up when they ask how things are going. I give them a little, but if I start talking then the floodgates would open. They're great friends, and empathize with what I'm dealing with, but I don't want to be the guy that can't talk about anything else when we hang out. Hell, I'M tired of hearing about it most of the time.


----------



## Shamwow

SadSamIAm said:


> You are a strong man. I have never had to deal with this, but I think I would:
> 
> 1) Take her up on her offer of sharing the meds
> 2) Have wild passionate sex with her?
> 3) Live the rest of my life wondering who she is cheating with
> 
> You are doing very well. You are being strong. Your best bet is to be polite to her until the divorce is final. You will find someone that you won't have to spend the rest of you life wondering if she is cheating.


Don't know whether to laugh or not Sam (haven't read your backstory yet)...sorry if you're finding yourself living in that situation. But hey, if I can sack up and flip my world inside out anyone can, and that's the god's honest truth. I was becoming the definition of "blindly content with the status quo". Now if I can just make sure I don't end up there again...

And I hear ya, to a guy who has cut back partying to "beers with my friends", and been phsycially alienated from my W for months, both vicodin and sex sound pretty good right now (well, maybe not in that order).


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Don't know whether to laugh or not Sam (haven't read your backstory yet)...sorry if you're finding yourself living in that situation. But hey, if I can sack up and flip my world inside out anyone can, and that's the god's honest truth. I was becoming the definition of "blindly content with the status quo". Now if I can just make sure I don't end up there again...
> 
> And I hear ya, to a guy who has cut back partying to "beers with my friends", and been phsycially alienated from my W for months, both vicodin and sex sound pretty good right now (well, maybe not in that order).


:lol::rofl:

I'd buy THAT for a dollar!


----------



## MEM2020

Sham,
Do you plan to have kids someday? If so, could you really sleep at night knowing you were bound for life - through kids - to someone who breached trust so much for so long?



Shamwow said:


> Don't know whether to laugh or not Sam (haven't read your backstory yet)...sorry if you're finding yourself living in that situation. But hey, if I can sack up and flip my world inside out anyone can, and that's the god's honest truth. I was becoming the definition of "blindly content with the status quo". Now if I can just make sure I don't end up there again...
> 
> And I hear ya, to a guy who has cut back partying to "beers with my friends", and been phsycially alienated from my W for months, both vicodin and sex sound pretty good right now (well, maybe not in that order).


----------



## Shamwow

MEM11363 said:


> Sham,
> Do you plan to have kids someday? If so, could you really sleep at night knowing you were bound for life - through kids - to someone who breached trust so much for so long?


Yes, I would love to have at least one child of my own. My W and I always pushed it back, never really had the talk with a good outcome (I wanted it more than she did). We both knew that going into marriage, so I've not given her grief about it over the years...brought it up now and again though. So yeah, I guess this frees me up to find a new partner who wants to have and raise a child w me. And yes, it would be very hard to do that with my STBXW, given what's happened here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Dadof3 said:


> :lol::rofl:
> 
> I'd but THAT for a dollar!


Ten points for Robocop reference
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Oh, maybe not...
> 
> She's still got her wiles about her (she wont want the dog - shes got a pill with your name on it.....) I would take the bet that its not today or tomorrow.


Dadof3 - you owe me ten bucks.


----------



## F-102

Though bringing the dogs over for a visit sounds nice, Sham, don't get TOO nice-or you'll find out that she is calling you 24/7 to take care of her.

I wonder, perhaps she thinks that the injury will be a great way to "guilt" you into becoming a neverending butler/maid/cook/slave?


----------



## golfergirl

F-102 said:


> Though bringing the dogs over for a visit sounds nice, Sham, don't get TOO nice-or you'll find out that she is calling you 24/7 to take care of her.
> 
> I wonder, perhaps she thinks that the injury will be a great way to "guilt" you into becoming a neverending butler/maid/cook/slave?


Broken ribs etc., last thing she needs is to puppy sit. This is a manipulative tactic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> Though bringing the dogs over for a visit sounds nice, Sham, don't get TOO nice-or you'll find out that she is calling you 24/7 to take care of her.
> 
> I wonder, perhaps she thinks that the injury will be a great way to "guilt" you into becoming a neverending butler/maid/cook/slave?


No worries...I won't let that happen. But I will help her right now if she needs it. Rhett Butler came back to Scarlett's rescue numerous times, and when she was safe he LEFT again, because she had hurt him. And women love that story.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Remember Sham that there is a difference between being friends and being friendly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

Shamwow said:


> No worries...I won't let that happen. But I will help her right now if she needs it. Rhett Butler came back to Scarlett's rescue numerous times, and when she was safe he LEFT again, because she had hurt him. And women love that story.


Because the character was a strong alpha male, same with all the romance novel males that are so popular.


----------



## golfergirl

lordmayhem said:


> Because the character was a strong alpha male, same with all the romance novel males that are so popular.


Wouldn't the 180 mean having her parents or other friends care for her? She does have other options. I am scared if this help keeps up, there will be rug-sweeping and the relationship will continue.
There is a difference in going to help in a life or death situation and playing Florence Nightingale when she does have other options.
You're making things too easy for her. Remember, she chose to no longer have the benefit of a loving, caring husband when she chose the affair.
Giving her implied hope so the divorce will go smooth will just backfire. She wants R and when she realizes D is coming, she'll flip her nut.
Your call all the way but she doesn't deserve your nurse maid role.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Dadof3 - you owe me ten bucks.


Where do I send it?


----------



## Dadof3

golfergirl said:


> Wouldn't the 180 mean having her parents or other friends care for her? She does have other options. I am scared if this help keeps up, there will be rug-sweeping and the relationship will continue.
> There is a difference in going to help in a life or death situation and playing Florence Nightingale when she does have other options.
> You're making things too easy for her. Remember, she chose to no longer have the benefit of a loving, caring husband when she chose the affair.
> Giving her implied hope so the divorce will go smooth will just backfire. She wants R and when she realizes D is coming, she'll flip her nut.
> Your call all the way but she doesn't deserve your nurse maid role.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There some sense in what she says here..... :iagree:


----------



## alphaomega

Theres nothing wrong with being nice to her. Just don't be a Nice Guy. Your not an uncaring monster, and helping her when she needed it is not wrong in my books.

Hell, I went over and spoon fed my WW during our separation when she was immensely sick. Didn't mean I was looking for R.

Remember, she WAS your wife at one point. And as messed up in the head as she is are, you do have a history that wasn't so dark at one point in your lives together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> Wouldn't the 180 mean having her parents or other friends care for her? She does have other options. I am scared if this help keeps up, there will be rug-sweeping and the relationship will continue.
> There is a difference in going to help in a life or death situation and playing Florence Nightingale when she does have other options.
> You're making things too easy for her. Remember, she chose to no longer have the benefit of a loving, caring husband when she chose the affair.
> Giving her implied hope so the divorce will go smooth will just backfire. She wants R and when she realizes D is coming, she'll flip her nut.
> Your call all the way but she doesn't deserve your nurse maid role.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You are right that she gave up the right to a loving husband around the house...and I need to keep that at the forefront of my mind. Usually pretty easy, considering her unapologetic firebombing of our marriage.

180 says not to "sit around waiting on your spouse". I've been referencing the list almost daily. I understand the worry that I may backslide due to her sudden smiley/thankful persona, and empathy for her injury. But I'm certainly doing nothing of the Florence Nightengale sort, except for the day she was injured and I helped her get situated on the couch and cleaned the wound on her head. That was Saturday. Since then I've been over once, last night. I had to pick up a drive that I needed for work, was there for about 10 minutes or so. While there I did a few trivial things to help out, checked out the basement to see the new paint, there was some idle/pleasant chit chat from her to which I was polite but not really engaged. She said thanks. I said "take care of yourself" and then left. Of course she misses a man around the house. GOOD. She should.

I didn't go grocery shopping for her, ask to take a look at the wound again, chop broccoli, cook dinner, change the oil on her car, etc.

I totally get the trepidation about maybe getting tricked into being her beta puppy again. Believe me, my eyes are wide open here. I've been posting some of my weaker feelings here for perspective, but I'm consciously playing a strong game when I'm face to face with her. She's not prostrate on the couch anymore, seems to be getting around okay now, just a little slow moving. So can't foresee needing to continue offering help.


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> You are right that she gave up the right to a loving husband around the house...and I need to keep that at the forefront of my mind. Usually pretty easy, considering her unapologetic firebombing of our marriage.
> 
> 180 says not to "sit around waiting on your spouse". I've been referencing the list almost daily. I understand the worry that I may backslide due to her sudden smiley/thankful persona, and empathy for her injury. But I'm certainly doing nothing of the Florence Nightengale sort, except for the day she was injured and I helped her get situated on the couch and cleaned the wound on her head. That was Saturday. Since then I've been over once, last night. I had to pick up a drive that I needed for work, was there for about 10 minutes or so. While there I did a few trivial things to help out, checked out the basement to see the new paint, there was some idle/pleasant chit chat from her to which I was polite but not really engaged. She said thanks. I said "take care of yourself" and then left. Of course she misses a man around the house. GOOD. She should.
> 
> I didn't go grocery shopping for her, ask to take a look at the wound again, chop broccoli, cook dinner, change the oil on her car, etc.
> 
> I totally get the trepidation about maybe getting tricked into being her beta puppy again. Believe me, my eyes are wide open here. I've been posting some of my weaker feelings here for perspective, but I'm consciously playing a strong game when I'm face to face with her. And she seems to be getting around fine now, just a little slow moving. So can't foresee needing to continue offering help in this situation.


I'm glad and I believe in you (as in you know what you're doing and being cautious). If you were an unfeeling jerk, I don't think everyone here would be so invested in your story. Take care of yourself, you're a good man and someday you'll find a great, deserving woman and have a little Shamwow or two running around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Thanks, I'm trying. As you know, each day is totally different. Trying to play each one properly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

She's going thru the emotional roller coaster, too. Don't be too surprised if next week she's Cruella DeVille again.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Sure; nice now doesn't mean nice later.

Still, Sham can't say that he hasn't tried... and he's much more magnanamous than I might be. 

Just keep both eyes open, Sham (but it sounds like you've got it under control). And, you know, if things do get uncomfortable (i.e. if she asks for too much help, or it's something you don't feel appropriate doing), you are perfectly within your rights to say "I'm not comfortable with doing that" or "I don't think that'd be appropriate, under the circumstances."


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> She's going thru the emotional roller coaster, too. Don't be too surprised if next week she's Cruella DeVille again.


Agreed...what happens when there's no more percocet and she's healed...your guess is as good as mine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Unsure in Seattle said:


> (i.e. if she asks for too much help, or it's something you don't feel appropriate doing), you are perfectly within your rights to say "I'm not comfortable with doing that" or "I don't think that'd be appropriate, under the circumstances."


Totally. She mentioned some haunted house thing that's sold out every year. She mentioned they still had tix available. (??). I said, "Nice...you gonna go?". Her: "Dunno". Me: "Cool."

She wasn't really fishing for a date, was she? This from the girl who hasn't even said "oops, sorry I did what I did." Either way, I wasn't a d*ck about it, just indifferent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Sounds like she was fishing a little bit, yeah.

Non-****ish indifference is a good thing to maintain, I think.


----------



## Sod

Agree that she was fishing. Good response
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zsu234

Dude 

You need to cut off all commo with her. Your beta instincts are too overpowering right now and until you get that under control she's going to suck you right back in. You have no kids and no ties to her just get the divorce done and don't look back.

My 2 cents after following this thread from day 1


----------



## Shamwow

Not sure if it's beta being too strong or just being thrown a hefty curveball with the injury, reintroducing a little empathy for her into my mindset. Know I need to be careful, with you on that 100%. Just can't imagine her wanting to "suck me back in". She was planning to leave me for months before I discovered her game. I think she's happy as hell to have me gone, just not happy with the financial stress of doing this "my way". That and she was hoping for me to keep the house while she moved out and got to live the free life. Oops. She's being nice right now, I'm not calling her, she's calling/texting me. While I miss my wife (the original wife), I'm looking at this as making use of the lack of vitriol to make some headway on communication on the divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Shamwow said:


> Just can't imagine her wanting to "suck me back in". She was planning to leave me for months before I discovered her game.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that is the mindset of many WW while the A is in full swing. They think the OM is going to save them from their mediocre life and all will be roses. Then reality hits and ....... Maybe you have mentioned it before ( a lot of posts in this thread hard to keep up ) but was sorry a word that always hard for her to say? Did you find yourself apologizing even when she was in the wrong before the A?


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> was sorry a word that always hard for her to say? Did you find yourself apologizing even when she was in the wrong before the A?


Pretty much nailed it there. She would apologize after an argument, but with big things she's always preferred to ignore it and take a hard stance. And yes, I often found myself apologizing to diffuse situations where she should have been apologizing. Once she even said "why are you apologizing?". SMH, I have a lot to learn. As much as all this sucks hard, I'm learning tons of stuff that'll make life so much better going forward. Took a nuke to start over fresh and do things right maybe...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Pretty much nailed it there. She would apologize after an argument, but with big things she's always preferred to ignore it and take a hard stance. And yes, I often found myself apologizing to diffuse situations where she should have been apologizing. Once she even said "why are you apologizing?". SMH, I had a lot to learn. As much as all this sucks hard, I'm learning tons of stuff that'll make life so much better going forward. Took a nuke to start over fresh and do things right maybe...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With what she knows you know and what she imagines you know, she is just to embarassed to apologize. I mean, what she has done to you is so horrible, I doubt that she is that close to wrapping her mind around the pain you have suffered. 

She is totally avoiding facing up to all that has happened. I believe she feels an apology would be equivalent to putting a band aid on a broken leg.

Its going to take awhile for her to accept this situation for what it really is, assuming she will ever be able to.


----------



## Dadof3

chapparal said:


> With what she knows you know and what she imagines you know, she is just to embarassed to apologize. I mean, what she has done to you is so horrible, I doubt that she is that close to wrapping her mind around the pain you have suffered.
> 
> She is totally avoiding facing up to all that has happened. I believe she feels an apology would be equivalent to putting a band aid on a broken leg.
> 
> Its going to take awhile for her to accept this situation for what it really is, assuming she will ever be able to.


Furthermore, along Chapparal's comments - there may also be an element more than maybe what Sham knows - something she doesn't want to have to confess. 

This is why I think (in my little conspiring mind) that she is waiting for Sham to bring it up - so she only has to admit to what he knows about. This is probably the most difficult for her to figure out.

Or she really believes that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas (except the STDs)


----------



## Gabriel

What else could she have done? Sham already has hard proof that she f*cked the OM. What more could she hide from?


----------



## Almostrecovered

Gabriel said:


> What more could she hide from?



Other affairs
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

Almostrecovered said:


> Other affairs
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I may be remembering wrOng but wasn't there a possibility of two OM's in Vegas?
Maybe she doesn't want to cop tO the threesome!




_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedTex

tacoma said:


> I may be remembering wrOng but wasn't there a possibility of two OM's in Vegas?
> Maybe she doesn't want to cop tO the threesome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, because THAT would have been a real betrayal of the marriage vows. 

All of that is water under the bridge. I think Sham is on his course. Not particularly useful at this point to replay or speculate on these aspects that are largely irrelvant now.


----------



## Shamwow

tacoma said:


> I may be remembering wrOng but wasn't there a possibility of two OM's in Vegas?
> Maybe she doesn't want to cop tO the threesome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


According to OMW, it ended up just being the two of them in Vegas. Of course, that's info from OM...and my W told me there were others there, but she was lying about everything when she told me that (in the few days before I left).

There were clearly indiscretions before OM. Just not EA or sex, that I'm aware of...but I think maybe a drunken groping by some other a-hole that she didn't fully resist while on the road in May/June. And some guy at a hotel bar that was hitting on her pretty hard and she really thought about leaving with him...but from her texts it appears she didn't do it. Also wonder about a company party out of town in Dec that she went to...there's a guy that's vaguely mentioned in the texts as pursuing her since then, and being "really annoying and gross". She may have done something with him at that party. In which case, this goes back 10 months, and we had a lot of great times after that (at least I thought so...). I've seen his texts to her from a few months ago...he was propositioning her while in town (OUR town) giving her his hotel info, etc and "wish you were with me right now"...she turned him down.

So yeah, she has more to hide, and honestly all she knows I know is what I left of the texts when I walked (which was one page out of about 600), and then the lab results, which she heard about from OM after I sent it to OMW. But she has to presume I/we know a LOT more, so I can imagine she would have a hard time opening up fully, for fear that she would tell me something I didn't already know. P.S. In a text a few weeks ago when she was being nasty, she called me Jason Bourne. I had to chuckle a little at that.

Agreed, at this point it's water under the bridge, but for some reason I'd still like to hear it from her.


----------



## Dadof3

MarriedTex said:


> Yeah, because THAT would have been a real betrayal of the marriage vows.
> 
> All of that is water under the bridge. I think Sham is on his course. Not particularly useful at this point to replay or speculate on these aspects that are largely irrelvant now.


Agreed, my speculation was based on motivation his STBXW had in regard to the interaction dynamic at the present time. I mean, she's acting almost like NOTHING happened, which to me is more along the lines of - she would LOVE to reconcile, but NOT have to fess up to anything more than what Sham knows. Otherwise, D is the course.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> According to OMW, it ended up just being the two of them in Vegas. Of course, that's info from OM...and my W told me there were others there, but she was lying about everything when she told me that (in the few days before I left).
> 
> There were clearly indiscretions before OM. Just not EA or sex, that I'm aware of...but I think maybe a drunken groping by some other a-hole that she didn't fully resist while on the road in May/June. And some guy at a hotel bar that was hitting on her pretty hard and she really thought about leaving with him...but from her texts it appears she didn't do it. Also wonder about a company party out of town in Dec that she went to...there's a guy that's vaguely mentioned in the texts as pursuing her since then, and being "really annoying and gross". She may have done something with him at that party. In which case, this goes back 10 months, and we had a lot of great times after that (at least I thought so...). I've seen his texts to her from a few months ago...he was propositioning her while in town (OUR town) giving her his hotel info, etc and "wish you were with me right now"...she turned him down.
> 
> So yeah, she has more to hide, and honestly all she knows I know is what I left of the texts I left her (which was one page out of about 600), and then the lab results, which she heard about from OM after I sent it to OMW. But she has to presume I/we know a LOT more, so I can imagine she would have a hard time opening up fully, for fear that she would tell me something I didn't already know.


Sham - you just recapped precisely what I was alluding to. 

I would largely almost discount any derogatory comment made about any man that has hit on her. After all, look what she said about DB Mcgee before you hit pay dirt on their affair. Keep in mind, she responded in conversations with others in ways to be vague and not too revealing of what was really happening, in the event, that if caught, it will tend to lead you away with a different impression of what really happened. 

Guys that are irritating and gross don't just show up in a town without a good reason why they aren't expecting some reciprocation. More was there than meets the eye.

Hence, I close my case with - Sham's wife probably cheated with more than DB McGee - in some form or fashion. The sex club atmosphere she traveled with for so long has to have a large impact when there was little to no interaction with her hubby and little transparency in the marriage. She led a double-life - until Sham got smart and saw the smoke starting to spill out around her.

So sorry you have to go through this, Sham!


----------



## Shamwow

tacoma said:


> I may be remembering wrOng but wasn't there a possibility of two OM's in Vegas?
> Maybe she doesn't want to cop tO the threesome!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if she would touch the other guy (the one that was supposed to be there with her and OM), she's have to be completely effed in the head. He's hideous. Think Ron Jeremy (except prob with a 2-incher).


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Agreed, at this point it's water under the bridge, but for some reason I'd still like to hear it from her.



just don't hold your breath


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> just don't hold your breath


I know, it's the one thing I keep coming back to, and know I need to be done with it and push it out of my head. Trust me, my therapist is on the case on that one.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Sham - you just recapped precisely what I was alluding to.
> 
> I would largely almost discount any derogatory comment made about any man that has hit on her. After all, look what she said about DB Mcgee before you hit pay dirt on their affair. Keep in mind, she responded in conversations with others in ways to be vague and not too revealing of what was really happening, in the event, that if caught, it will tend to lead you away with a different impression of what really happened.
> 
> Guys that are irritating and gross don't just show up in a town without a good reason why they aren't expecting some reciprocation. More was there than meets the eye.
> 
> Hence, I close my case with - Sham's wife probably cheated with more than DB McGee - in some form or fashion. The sex club atmosphere she traveled with for so long has to have a large impact when there was little to no interaction with her hubby and little transparency in the marriage. She led a double-life - until Sham got smart and saw the smoke starting to spill out around her.
> 
> So sorry you have to go through this, Sham!


Thanks, sucks hard. You remember correctly, 3 days before I left when she was stonewalling me on my demand that she tell me everything, I finally said point blank "Why don't you start by telling me when things started getting inappropriate with OM?", she laughed and called him a loser, one of the guys. So perhaps her texts about that other dude from Dec or the hotel bar guy were not truthful either, as they were mostly to OM (and she wouldn't want him thinking she's cheating on him now would she). Sigh.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Thanks, sucks hard. You remember correctly, 3 days before I left when she was stonewalling me on my demand that she tell me everything, I finally said point blank "Why don't you start by telling me when things started getting inappropriate with OM?", she laughed and called him a loser, one of the guys. So perhaps her texts about that other dude from Dec or the hotel bar guy were not truthful either, as they were mostly to OM (and she wouldn't want him thinking she's cheating on him now would she). Sigh.


Sham, not that I am trying to put you through the wringer here, but didn't you also mention in your other post that there was a night that she spent at a local hotel when you were home? Maybe I've got my wires crossed with another thread....

Either way, I hope this will be therapeutic and help you see her for who she's always been. I would also recommend (if you already haven't) to follow-up with her 1st ex on his side of their breakup story. Waywards (or so I'm told) have this funny way of twisting truth to match up with their actions to make themselves feel justified.

I think this realization will help you see her for who she is and what you are really dealing with.


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Hey....there's worse things to be called other than Jason Bourne (Those movies are cool)


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Sham, not that I am trying to put you through the wringer here, but didn't you also mention in your other post that there was a night that she spent at a local hotel when you were home? Maybe I've got my wires crossed.


Yeah, that was when "hotel bar guy" was mentioned. I was 3 miles away, had dropped her off, wished her luck "unplugging", and she spent the whole time texting OM and almost slept with some random a-hole. Yes, believe me, I will keep all of this in mind for perspective. Kinda bummed today, off to the gym.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Ok, everyone, tell me to shut up already!

Sham--
One more thought - piecing this speculation together with the comment she made to you about hurting the OWM - this might make sense now based on two things: the first one - you said she was loyal to a fault regarding those she loved - so you hurt DB McGees through his wife - might make some sense here; secondly - based on my assessment above: she may be thinking of ALL of the OMW's that will get impacted if you knew about the rest and were to make contact. I need to be "John Tesh" and state the obvious - there would be a lot of fallout in her work community. It would probably fall back on her as the "weakest link" and trash her rep beyond repair.

Again, speculation, but when it is viewed as a whole, makes sense.


----------



## lordmayhem

Dadof3 said:


> Ok, everyone, tell me to shut up already!


Ok, you got it. Shut up already. 

All this speculation about other possible past affairs are irrelevant at this point and not helpful to Shamwow since he's already in the process of D. He doesn't need more triggers. Now, if he were going for R, then yes, he would need to know.


----------



## Shamwow

lordmayhem said:


> Ok, you got it. Shut up already.
> 
> All this speculation about other possible past affairs are irrelevant at this point and not helpful to Shamwow since he's already in the process of D. He doesn't need more triggers. Now, if he were going for R, then yes, he would need to know.


There are days where I sincerely wish my situation was different and R was on the table, gotta be honest. I talk to OMW and afterward I find myself truly jealous that at least her d-bag H is on his hands and knees begging for her forgiveness, saying he's sorry and will do anything to fix what he's done, giving her passwords and access to all accounts (at least the ones she knows about, she's not ignorant of the realities here). At least owning up and going through the motions of showing (now, after being caught) that he cares enough to express his remorse and try to make it right. Mine doesn't give a crap, or at least is a master at hiding it.

I know all the niceness from her since I helped her out this weekend is effing with my head. Therapist refers to this as my fantasy. It's a simple fantasy. But it is just that. She comes to me and at least tries to make it good, regardless of how it works out. BTW - I'm not letting these thoughts out to friends/family/STBXW, so times like these the forum is invaluable...but they're there and it's p*ssing me off. It'll pass I'm sure, just a phase of what if's and if only's that I haven't felt over the rage of the past 6 weeks since d-day. I feel them today. I felt them yesterday. Not happy about it.

Was at dinner again tonight with a colleague who's also on the verge of divorce. He's thinking about leaving her because she's bats*it crazy, bipolar and needy, while also pushing him away and blaming him for everything wrong with her life. He's tired of the crazy. Funny thing is he's almost jealous of ME because at least I had a clear cut reason to leave. (that said, he mentioned his W was reading a novel the other day - apparently she doesn't read novels - he asked her about it and she told him a guy from her Pilates class gave it to her...I told him I saw that as a red flag, and not to make him paranoid, but listed off several other possible red flags, during most of which he nodded along, looked a little surprised and then said "Interesting...well that would almost be a relief at this point.")

Guess in situations like these we all see things elsewhere we'd prefer to have...when others may not find it so appealing. Like OMW, she has what I'm saying I want...a gut-wrenching apology and remorseful actions...but still she's miserable. She's told me she wishes he would stop so it would be easier for her to just rip off the band aid. Probably because he's stirring up an even more confusing c0cktail of feelings by doing that.

Careful what you wish for, I guess. Sorry for the downer post, but one of those nights.


----------



## joe kidd

I know man... just some show that she was sorry would show that you meant something to her. Or some feeling for what you once had. Makes you question if it was ever there at all.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> There are days where I sincerely wish my situation was different and R was on the table, gotta be honest. I talk to OMW and afterward I find myself truly jealous that at least her d-bag H is on his hands and knees begging for her forgiveness, saying he's sorry and will do anything to fix what he's done, giving her passwords and access to all accounts (at least the ones she knows about, she's not ignorant of the realities here). At least owning up and going through the motions of showing (now, after being caught) that he cares enough to express his remorse and try to make it right. Mine doesn't give a crap, or at least is a master at hiding it.
> 
> I know all the niceness from her since I helped her out this weekend is effing with my head. Therapist refers to this as my fantasy. It's a simple fantasy. But it is just that. She comes to me and at least tries to make it good, regardless of how it works out. BTW - I'm not letting these thoughts out to friends/family/STBXW, so times like these the forum is invaluable...but they're there and it's p*ssing me off. It'll pass I'm sure, just a phase of what if's and if only's that I haven't felt over the rage of the past 6 weeks since d-day. I feel them today. I felt them yesterday. Not happy about it.
> 
> Was at dinner again tonight with a colleague who's also on the verge of divorce. He's thinking about leaving her because she's bats*it crazy, bipolar and needy, while also pushing him away and blaming him for everything wrong with her life. He's tired of the crazy. Funny thing is he's almost jealous of ME because at least I had a clear cut reason to leave. (that said, he mentioned his W was reading a novel the other day - apparently she doesn't read novels - he asked her about it and she told him a guy from her Pilates class gave it to her...I told him I saw that as a red flag, and not to make him paranoid, but listed off several other possible red flags, during most of which he nodded along, looked a little surprised and then said "Interesting...well that would almost be a relief at this point.")
> 
> Guess in situations like these we all see things elsewhere we'd prefer to have...when others may not find it so appealing. Like OMW, she has what I'm saying I want...a gut-wrenching apology and remorseful actions...but still she's miserable. She's told me she wishes he would stop so it would be easier for her to just rip off the band aid. Probably because he's stirring up an even more confusing c0cktail of feelings by doing that.
> 
> Careful what you wish for, I guess. Sorry for the downer post, but one of those nights.


 I for one will be real surprised if you don't get the remorse and an apology. 

She 's already thrown out a few feelers but they have been curtly overlooked. 

I think it will come down to how insecure a person she is. The more doubt she has the longer it will take. Too proud to just have it thrown back in her face.


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> I know man... just some show that she was sorry would show that you meant something to her. Or some feeling for what you once had. Makes you question if it was ever there at all.


Dude, why am I paying a therapist?

That pretty much sums it up, dead on. Thanks.

(feel free to send a bill to my insurance company)


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> I think it will come down to how insecure a person she is. The more doubt she has the longer it will take.


I'd say pretty insecure, as much as she puts on the strong front. She has periodically had trouble with self-esteem, and cares a lot what others think of her, though she hides it well. 

Then again, that statement could describe most any person on the planet (myself included), so who knows.


----------



## lordmayhem

Don't hold your breath waiting for an apology or remorsefulness. Some people are just like that. I waited for a LONG time to hear something like that from my ex-wife and never got it. She walked out and never ever looked back. I know a couple of guys IRL that had that happen to them too. 

It's a fantasy we all share when that happens, that the WS would show at least some remorse. Some never do. Your WS checked out of the marriage long ago, despite all your efforts.


----------



## Initfortheduration

Read your whole story, both threads. Your wife is such a burden to her parents. She has a seared conscience. Now the only thing left for her is whats staring back in mirror. And i guarantee she doesn't like what she sees.


----------



## Stonewall

Shamwow said:


> Thanks, sucks hard. You remember correctly, 3 days before I left when she was stonewalling me on my demand that she tell me everything, I finally said point blank "Why don't you start by telling me when things started getting inappropriate with OM?", she laughed and called him a loser, one of the guys. So perhaps her texts about that other dude from Dec or the hotel bar guy were not truthful either, as they were mostly to OM (and she wouldn't want him thinking she's cheating on him now would she). Sigh.



can we stop using the word Stonewall as a pejorative! LOL


----------



## Almostrecovered

I always thought it strange that people say that going through divorce is like mourning the death of your spouse. Not that death is preferable to divorce but with death your spouse isn't around creating false hope. I suppose you would have to treat it like a death (the wife you had is now gone) and that is much easier said than done.


----------



## ManDup

Almostrecovered said:


> I always thought it strange that people say that going through divorce is like mourning the death of your spouse. Not that death is preferable to divorce but with death your spouse isn't around creating false hope. I suppose you would have to treat it like a death (the wife you had is now gone) and that is much easier said than done.


http://i.imgur.com/zD2rO.jpg


----------



## MarriedTex

chapparal said:


> I for one will be real surprised if you don't get the remorse and an apology.
> 
> She 's already thrown out a few feelers but they have been curtly overlooked.
> 
> I think it will come down to how insecure a person she is. The more doubt she has the longer it will take. Too proud to just have it thrown back in her face.


I, for one, will be surprised if you ever DO get an apology. For her to do that would mean that she acknowledges that she messed up what had been a good relationship due to her own bad judgement. To acknowledge bad judgement would undercut all the positive feelings of empowerment that she got from the affair. With you gone, that's really all she has to hold onto now to maintain her self-esteem.

One of the downsides of your highly effective "go dark" approach (which is the only way you could have gone and cannot be second guessed in the least - it was the only option for your sanity) is that you do not have closure. And she is unlikely to serve up closure to you on a silver platter.

When you are ready, you may want to consider biting the bullet and sitting down with her and saying "You hurt me tremendously, why did you do it?" You've established your bona fides as someone who does not roll over. I think you can afford to ask this question without looking weak. 

If this thought is nagging at you, you may be well-served in having this conversation at some point. Doesn't have to be now, but could provide welcome closure to do this before divorce is finalized.


----------



## F-102

Sham, in reading of the "others" (party groper, hotel bar guy), maybe your W did rebuff their propositions, and probably indeed acted in good faith while doing so. But then, the light bulb went off, and she realized: "Hey, guys are still interested in me, I'm still attractive and desirable, I STILL GOT IT!!!" And maybe that's when it all started. She may very well have never intended to cheat, but then, all her friends probably pressured her to "get with the program", because they didn't want a buzzkill spoiling their fun, and she feared that her friends would ice her, and she wouldn't be allowed to sit at the "popular girls' table" anymore. There was one thread here where a guys W got pregnant from an OM in a ONS threesome. When asked how she could have done such a thing, her reason was that they called her a chicken when she at first said no! 

Now, as far as your feelings over the past few days, you may have felt that you let your guard down by helping her. True, it was a good gesture (and frankly, one that will make you look good if the D battle starts), but you probably now feel that you let her take advantage of you, and that you fell for her deception again, that you slid back a little to Sham MkI. I know-whenever I do a favor for someone, I can't help but feel that I got hosed.

And, perhaps, her being civil is giving you a hope that she will finally admit that she was wrong and take full responsibility, that your finally gonna get a full confession from her. But she doesn't, and again, you feel that you're spinning your wheels with no real results. 
But, for her to admit anything will be for her to admit that she was wrong- not only to you and herself, in keeping with MarriedTex's post, but she would also have to admit that to her friends that are in her corner, friendships that are already fragile enough as it is. Remember, she has to do a LOT of convincing that she made the "right" decision, that she is fully justified in her actions-so I really wouldn't hold my breath. 

And, as far as the OM being remorseful, keep in mind, he is in an "at fault" state-he absolutely MUST make nice in order to save his own neck.


----------



## krismimo

:scratchhead::scratchhead: Really trying not to be mean here But the speculations of the what if's, Decoding What she meant to say, etc etc etc. I don't think is really helping. All we can go by is not just what she says but what she does, but most important just wait for sham to update us and tell us what is going on. The thing is I feel Sham is going through a lot right now and all these speculations (Which take up most of the thread by the way) can sort of drive any decent person a little mad. Just trying to be a sound of reason here. As for you Sham I think your doing what you need to need. The thing is you can never control what other people may or may do, all we can do is control ourselves and that is a tough job as it is .


----------



## lordmayhem

MarriedTex said:


> One of the downsides of your highly effective "go dark" approach (which is the only way you could have gone and cannot be second guessed in the least - it was the only option for your sanity) is that you do not have closure. And she is unlikely to serve up closure to you on a silver platter.


I think that sums it up in a nutshell. What he might be seeking by an admission of wrong doing is closure. I know exactly what that feels like. But you can move on without it.


----------



## Shamwow

Just stopped by the house...grab a few things from the basement. I'll be heading back on Sunday for more. Her gf was there, and there was some conversation, casual and pleasant, as per "usual" this week. Nothing much worth mentioning, but they were talking about the doctor being skeptical of how she got hurt (are you sure no one did this to you? How many drinks had you had before you fell on the stairs? etc). My wife said in passing "Hell, I figured it was just karma...". I said nothing, but her gf changed the subject right away.

Also, when I left I realised I forgot something, called her and said I had to stop back real quick. Her gf was gone by then. I grabbed what I forgot and started heading for the door, and she said "Is that all you came back for?" I said yeah, well see you on Sunday. I paused for a second though, as she seemed disappointed that's the only reason I came back. Gave her a chance to open her mouth. She chose not to. Little stuff to mess with my head. But I'll try not to let it get to me. It's Friday, right??

The recent posts on closure are dead on, I'm just letting things roll out I guess, not expecting jack. Doc gave me Xanax today. Hopefully that will tamp down the nights my mind is racing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Sham,
Let me help you here as subtext is my specialty and it is easy to be objective from the bleachers. 

1. The karma comment was: I deserve this for behaving so badly
2. Is that all you came back for was an invitation which you rejected. Great move. 

I really hope you do not reconcile - she is not trust worthy. That said this is going to escalate. She likely will give you a full blown apology before the dust settles. If you are wise you will accept it AND still move on. 






Shamwow said:


> Just stopped by the house...grab a few things from the basement. I'll be heading back on Sunday for more. Her gf was there, and there was some conversation, casual and pleasant, as per "usual" this week. Nothing much worth mentioning, but they were talking about the doctor being skeptical of how she got hurt (are you sure no one did this to you? How many drinks had you had before you fell on the stairs? etc). My wife said in passing "Hell, I figured it was just karma...". I said nothing, but her gf changed the subject right away.
> 
> Also, when I left I realised I forgot something, called her and said I had to stop back real quick. Her gf was gone by then. I grabbed what I forgot and started heading for the door, and she said "Is that all you came back for?" I said yeah, well see you on Sunday. I paused for a second though, as she seemed disappointed that's the only reason I came back. Gave her a chance to open her mouth. She chose not to. Little stuff to mess with my head. But I'll try not to let it get to me. It's Friday, right??
> 
> The recent posts on closure are dead on, I'm just letting things roll out I guess, not expecting jack. Doc gave me Xanax today. Hopefully that will tamp down the nights my mind is racing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## krismimo

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## golfergirl

MEM11363 said:


> Sham,
> Let me help you here as subtext is my specialty and it is easy to be objective from the bleachers.
> 
> 1. The karma comment was: I deserve this for behaving so badly
> 2. Is that all you came back for was an invitation which you rejected. Great move.
> 
> I really hope you do not reconcile - she is not trust worthy. That said this is going to escalate. She likely will give you a full blown apology before the dust settles. If you are wise you will accept it AND still move on.


I agree. It makes me angry that she is treating it lightly like she got caught doing something silly bad not gut wrenching, life-altering painful. Like a couple of cutesy comments can bring everything back to okay. Like she's so charming and wonderful and such a prize that a few dismissive comments like, 'oooo my bad' can erase everything. I swear I felt worse for scuffing H's rim and tearing his low-profile tire on a curb than she does for ruining both your lives.
It just makes me angry. If she was totally done with you, it would have been a cruel way to do it, but since she's showing interest again, it's even worse. 
I'm sorry you're struggling and hurting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## seeking sanity

MEM11363 said:


> Sham,
> 
> I really hope you do not reconcile - she is not trust worthy. That said this is going to escalate. She likely will give you a full blown apology before the dust settles. If you are wise you will accept it AND still move on.



I don't necessarily agree with this. All the drama you described is pretty normal (doesn't make it easy or right). Some marriages can get better after infidelity, some can't. The thing that it does do is open you up to understanding that relationships are no guarantee of security. People do all manner of hurtful, self destructive things. But that box has already been opened and you can't close it. Whether you deal with that in this marriage or the next.

I've noticed that women are much less likely to initially confess and do all the needed reconciliation things compared with men. I'm not sure why - maybe because men tend to be less emotionally invested. She seems to be coming out of the fog and I think MEM's right that you can expect a confession and some contrition.

For me, I'm happy that I reconciled because I put value in history and long time we've been together. That's important to me. And now that we are doing well, I'm happy.

But I do have kids (many) so it's a bit different. And we've been together much longer. There's really no wrong answer. Life is a hard road, no matter which one you take.


----------



## MarriedTex

MEM11363 said:


> Sham,
> Let me help you here as subtext is my specialty and it is easy to be objective from the bleachers.
> 
> 1. The karma comment was: I deserve this for behaving so badly
> 2. Is that all you came back for was an invitation which you rejected. Great move.
> 
> I really hope you do not reconcile - she is not trust worthy. That said this is going to escalate. She likely will give you a full blown apology before the dust settles. If you are wise you will accept it AND still move on.


Sham, not to be crass, but I don't care what you do. I just want you to do what's right for Sham. Not what's right for a bunch of Internet yahoos. Good luck.


----------



## lordmayhem

Shamwow said:


> Nothing much worth mentioning, but they were talking about the doctor being skeptical of how she got hurt (are you sure no one did this to you? How many drinks had you had before you fell on the stairs? etc). My wife said in passing "Hell, I figured it was just karma...". I said nothing, but her gf changed the subject right away.


It's nice that you got that email from her asking for your help.


----------



## morituri

Shamwow said:


> "*I grabbed what I forgot and started heading for the door, and she said"Is that all you came back for?"* I said yeah, well see you on Sunday. I paused for a second though, as she seemed disappointed that's the only reason I came back. Gave her a chance to open her mouth. She chose not to. Little stuff to mess with my head. But I'll try not to let it get to me. It's Friday, right??


Bravo SW! If she was remorseful and apologetic for what she has done (like my ex-wife was) then she could have answered you differently. But considering how prideful she is, it is better to let her realize that she is of no consequence in your new life.

A lot of women think that all we men think of is sexual intercourse and they are dead wrong. Yes we are attracted to the female form and how the woman shows her femininity (i.e. mannerisms, make up and clothing), but what we desire most in women is appreciation and respect.


----------



## Hijo

morituri said:


> what we desire most in women is appreciation and respect.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## F-102

lordmayhem said:


> It's nice that you got that email from her asking for your help.


Very good that he has it, but IMHO, if she was going to go the false accusation route, she would have done so long ago.

When I was in the Army, my W fell out of bed early in the morning, getting a cut and bruise above her eye. I took her to the hospital on base, and they patched her up, gave her the "how many fingers" tests, and sent us on our way. On the drive home, she asked me why they were asking her "strange" questions while there: "Are you and your H having problems? Has he ever hit you before? Does he drink?" (This was her first visit to a U.S. ER, and she comes from a country where if a woman gets a scratch on her, they do not form Frankenstein-style lynch mobs to go after her H). And, for the rest of the week, whenever we went out, and she was wearing that bandage on her eyebrow, everyone was looking at her with sadness, and at me with contempt. Fortunately, nothing ever came of it, but I've always wondered: what if that doc decided to report me to my commander? Those were the days of Bill Clinton's "Every military wife is married to an abuser" Army, and the story may have taken a very different turn.


----------



## Catherine602

morituri said:


> A lot of women think that all we men think of is sexual intercourse and they are dead wrong. Yes we are attracted to the female form and how the woman shows her femininity (i.e. mannerisms, make up and clothing), but what we desire most in women is appreciation and respect.


Mori Yes and no - Many think, with derision, that you can lead a man around by his d**k, this the negative view of male sexuality and an attempt at naked  manipulation. I don't know if Mrs S was trying this on because she thought that he was going to lead with his d**k or if she longed to be held by him and connect. That is also possible. 

Women respect men who show control. Bravo Sham no matter what happens, her respect for you deepens with each encounter. P***y wiped men are most often viewed with contempt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Probably not worth posting, just feeling down and kinda empty today. This last week has taken a toll on Mk II. Everything is a struggle, I reluctantly agreed to go watch the football game with a buddy of mine. It was fun and I kept pretty casual, but I keep thinking about her. Now that the tsunami of anger has subsided, I'm back to just missing my wife, and my life (as I thought it was). Not healthy to dwell on it, trying not to, gym didn't even seem to help today. So now I'm down the street from my new apt at a pub by myself, seeing if a martini will help. Methinks it won't, but this may be one day where I give in to the loneliness and just let it roll over me.

W cancelled today for me coming by to clear out some stuff from the basement and straighten up what's left for house showing. She's been throwing up all day (hasn't been taking nausea meds the doc gave her last week), says she isn't up to going through things. Why does this make me sad? I'm not *supposed* to want to see her. But I guess I do. Can't get sucked back in, especially since she has given no real indication that she wants to suck me back in. Any responses from me have been Mk II, but in my mind I know I'm just pretending today.

WEAK today. Probably for the best I don't see her, need to take some time to steel up again, get my head on straight, and ride the wave before I put myself in any position to damage my progress. So used to feeling in charge, today i just feel lonely, even though I'm currently surrounded by dozens of people. Guess the contact this last week has thrown me for a loop.

I know R is a hopeless cause, but I'm dreaming today I guess, the dream is that she lays it all out there and wants me back. Not worth my time to even entertain this fantasy, given the circumstances. This is the hardest day I've had in weeks. Just venting, I'll be okay. Maybe not till tomorrow though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Everything is worth posting. Of course you miss her, did you think you wouldn't? R isn't possible as long as she thinks she did nothing wrong. Stay strong man. Hey my SO screwed around and I'm still with her. But..... she got down on her knees and dealt with me seeing another woman in the wake of her A. Begged every day for a while before I decided I wanted to stay. Not saying R is out of the question, just saying it should be on your terms.


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## F-102

Sham, you're only human, with human emotions. It is quite normal to miss her and the life you had. Go ahead and wallow in misery for awhile-eventually, you will no longer want to.


----------



## morituri

Hey it's ok to grieve for the woman who once loved you and was your real wife. A few months ago I also grieved when I learned that my ex-wife had been institutionalized in a psychiatric hospital by her family for suicidal tendencies. It's obviously sad but reassuring at the same time, to know that we can still feel love even for the women who hurt us like no other person has. It ain't easy being human.


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## Shamwow

I would prefer to be a machine today, human is no good. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> I would prefer to be a machine today, human is no good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sham - I'm sorry to hear that you aren't doing well today. I debated bringing this up based on your first post for today - but this might help you steel up to Mk II again - then again, maybe not.

Is it possible that she could be pregnant from the affair? I just read where a woman's "morning sickness" peaks or is worst at the fifth to seventh week of pregnancy. 

Speculation of course, and I'm not trying to get you down, but I think it is wise to have a dose of reality with this. 

I've thought about your predicament a lot and wonder if you need to be "righteously" angry when dealing with your wife - or in other words, she needs to know how much her betrayal has hurt you ( I don't think it is unmanly to communicate your feelings) when she makes a come-on to you.

Time for me to shut up again.

Hang in there Sham. Our thoughts are with you.


----------



## tacoma

Stay strong Sham.

I can`t even imagine going through what you`ve been through the past month or so.

Let the pain and sadness roll through you tonight.

Tomorrow get up and read through some of those chat logs you got off the hard drive.
Maybe it`ll give you a bit of that righteous anger and help keep the sadness away for a time.

Stay busy and keep your mind occupied, it will pass and there will be better days.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Sham - I'm sorry to hear that you aren't doing well today. I debated bringing this up based on your first post for today - but this might help you steel up to Mk II again - then again, maybe not.
> 
> Is it possible that she could be pregnant from the affair? I just read where a woman's "morning sickness" peaks or is worst at the fifth to seventh week of pregnancy.
> 
> Speculation of course, and I'm not trying to get you down, but I think it is wise to have a dose of reality with this.
> 
> I've thought about your predicament a lot and wonder if you need to be "righteously" angry when dealing with your wife - or in other words, she needs to know how much her betrayal has hurt you ( I don't think it is unmanly to communicate your feelings) when she makes a come-on to you.
> 
> Time for me to shut up again.
> 
> Hang in there Sham. Our thoughts are with you.


Please don't shut up, you may speculate as you wish, I'm posting here for release and insight.

Anything is possible. She went off birth control for a few months while on her 10-wk trip thru the end of June. Far as I know she didn't go back on until a week before the last trip a week before Vegas in mid-August (I called her on this, as I had seen it sitting out all of a sudden...she said she was going back on for "when we got better"...just like the lingerie, etc). And it takes a few weeks to kick in. So it's possible. But...being she's on epilepsy medication, she'd definitely not have any child in such circumstances (almost guaranteed serious birth defects). OMW asked me about this possibility too, I told her that. If it were actually the case, I would hate to believe it, but I will believe almost anything at this point, particularly if it's the worst thing imaginable for me. (would put a smiley face in here for emphasis, but that wouldn't be funny right now).

But I don't fault you for bringing it up...I almost wanted to jokingly ask her if she was pregnant when she told me she was throwing up.

If she is...OM is staunchly pro-life and this would only cause more massive pain for everyone involved...again. In which case, well played, confused gods of karma. Keep it coming. How much more before the earth opens up and swallows the four of us for fun?


----------



## morituri

Birth defect inducing medication and unfavorable marital circumstances would be a tragedy for any child to face. Let's hope and pray that she isn't pregnant.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Please don't shut up, you may speculate as you wish, I'm posting here for release and insight.
> 
> Anything is possible. She went off birth control for a few months while on her 10-wk trip thru the end of June. Far as I know she didn't go back on until a week before the last trip a week before Vegas in mid-August (I called her on this, as I had seen it sitting out all of a sudden...she said she was going back on for "when we got better"...just like the lingerie, etc). And it takes a few weeks to kick in. So it's possible. But...being she's on epilepsy medication, she'd definitely not have any child in such circumstances (almost guaranteed serious birth defects). OMW asked me about this possibility too, I told her that. If it were actually the case, I would hate to believe it, but I will believe almost anything at this point, particularly if it's the worst thing imaginable for me. (would put a smiley face in here for emphasis, but that wouldn't be funny right now).
> 
> But I don't fault you for bringing it up...I almost wanted to jokingly ask her if she was pregnant when she told me she was throwing up.
> 
> If she is...OM is staunchly pro-life and this would only cause more massive pain for everyone involved...again. In which case, well played, confused gods of karma. Keep it coming. How much more before the earth opens up and swallows the four of us for fun?


Crap Sham! Crap!

Off of birth control while she is out of town? From my wife and I's experience with birth control - there's a reason why its called that despite the fact that it hormonally prevents pregnancy. It decreased my wife's sex drive when she was on it. 

That being said, I can't think of a more dangerous thing to happen while she is away, especially with the group she traveled with, and with what Atholk talks about in his primer, they go a-looking around ovulation time, if they aren't in a good position relationship wise or in contact regularly with a man.

Dangerous in deed and makes me insist - wouldn't hurt to ask her. Buy her the pregnancy test (if she can't afford it) if you have to know.

I would discount some of the disclaimers on the anti-seizure medication. Side effects CAN happen to people, but its not a 100% thing.

I think you also need to tell her to cut the crap with the flirty proposals - you can't love a dishonest woman who put her marriage on the line for a selfish fling. I think she needs a strong rebuke, something for her to stew over. She needs to feel the hurt. she's felt it - but she's more insulated by the hurt as the dynamic in your relationship was distance. I think what would affect her more is the lack of distance - interaction. she will see what she gave up. She gets a brief taste when she sees ya. 

If her nausea is caused by stress / guilt, then it can only be dulled by time, unless she comes clean for her conscience. Otherwise, it's biological - there's a new life being built. She's really in a tight spot now. If this was truly the case, be wary of R talk and trickle truth in a desperate way.


----------



## golfergirl

Dadof3 said:


> Crap Sham! Crap!
> 
> Off of birth control while she is out of town? From my wife and I's experience with birth control - there's a reason why its called that despite the fact that it hormonally prevents pregnancy. It decreased my wife's sex drive when she was on it.
> 
> That being said, I can't think of a more dangerous thing to happen while she is away, especially with the group she traveled with, and with what Atholk talks about in his primer, they go a-looking around ovulation time, if they aren't in a good position relationship wise or in contact regularly with a man.
> 
> Dangerous in deed and makes me insist - wouldn't hurt to ask her. Buy her the pregnancy test (if she can't afford it) if you have to know.
> 
> I would discount some of the disclaimers on the anti-seizure medication. Side effects CAN happen to people, but its not a 100% thing.
> 
> I think you also need to tell her to cut the crap with the flirty proposals - you can't love a dishonest woman who put her marriage on the line for a selfish fling. I think she needs a strong rebuke, something for her to stew over. She needs to feel the hurt. she's felt it - but she's more insulated by the hurt as the dynamic in your relationship was distance. I think what would affect her more is the lack of distance - interaction. she will see what she gave up. She gets a brief taste when she sees ya.
> 
> If her nausea is caused by stress / guilt, then it can only be dulled by time, unless she comes clean for her conscience. Otherwise, it's biological - there's a new life being built. She's really in a tight spot now. If this was truly the case, be wary of R talk and trickle truth in a desperate way.


Hasn't she not had sex with Sham since April? If so - let OM deal with tests etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> If her nausea is caused by stress / guilt, then it can only be dulled by time, unless she comes clean for her conscience. Otherwise, it's biological - there's a new life being built. She's really in a tight spot now. If this was truly the case, be wary of R talk and trickle truth in a desperate way.


Her nausea could also be caused by head injury, broken ribs, bruised lung, and strong pain meds.

But if she is pregnant, she will never tell anyone, and it'll be over by tomorrow afternoon. I know her. She told me early when we started dating that, because of the meds, if she ever got pregnant without planning on it (getting off the meds for a few months) that I would probably never even know about it. Of course I corrected her on this, and said that YES, I would, because I would deserve to know...but that I understood her reasoning.


----------



## Dadof3

I only say this as to my concern that she might reverse her initial position about abortion, especially in light of being alone.

I've seen stories of women who are as your wife was when younger, only to get older and reverse this. 

I also brought the possibility up as a way to help Sham steel up to Mk II again as it would be a reminder to her of the consequences of her actions.

After all, unless she was always a cheater, she changed her mind about that, why not about aborting a child?


----------



## Shamwow

Well if this is somehow the case, and in that case she does reverse that position, I'll be shocked, and will surely let you know. Just don't see it happening....


----------



## adv

Shamwow said:


> I would prefer to be a machine today, human is no good.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Personally, I don't think a machine could have handled your situation as well as you have.

The longing and emotions do pass, and eventually, you find yourself not caring or missing if you see or talk to her or not. It does take time and it sounds trite, but it does get easier as time passes.

I'm about eight months further along in this ****ty path than you are at the moment. Stay strong and your first priority is take care of yourself.

Edit:
Did not see the nausea talk until after I posted


----------



## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> Probably not worth posting, just feeling down and kinda empty today. This last week has taken a toll on Mk II. Everything is a struggle, I reluctantly agreed to go watch the football game with a buddy of mine. It was fun and I kept pretty casual, but I keep thinking about her. Now that the tsunami of anger has subsided, I'm back to just missing my wife, and my life (as I thought it was). Not healthy to dwell on it, trying not to, gym didn't even seem to help today. So now I'm down the street from my new apt at a pub by myself, seeing if a martini will help. Methinks it won't, but this may be one day where I give in to the loneliness and just let it roll over me.
> 
> W cancelled today for me coming by to clear out some stuff from the basement and straighten up what's left for house showing. She's been throwing up all day (hasn't been taking nausea meds the doc gave her last week), says she isn't up to going through things. Why does this make me sad? I'm not *supposed* to want to see her. But I guess I do. Can't get sucked back in, especially since she has given no real indication that she wants to suck me back in. Any responses from me have been Mk II, but in my mind I know I'm just pretending today.
> 
> WEAK today. Probably for the best I don't see her, need to take some time to steel up again, get my head on straight, and ride the wave before I put myself in any position to damage my progress. So used to feeling in charge, today i just feel lonely, even though I'm currently surrounded by dozens of people. Guess the contact this last week has thrown me for a loop.
> 
> I know R is a hopeless cause, but I'm dreaming today I guess, the dream is that she lays it all out there and wants me back. Not worth my time to even entertain this fantasy, given the circumstances. This is the hardest day I've had in weeks. Just venting, I'll be okay. Maybe not till tomorrow though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No matter how remote the possibility, please mention this nausea / possible pregnancy situation to your lawyer. Weirder things have happened. You don't want to get caught by some marriage technicality paying child support on an "affair baby."

The item about the birth control shifts help put things into perspective and offer at least a possible explanation for how this got rolling. Basically, birth control shifts left her out on the road feeling more sexual than had been the case in recent years. Another factor contributing to the ****tail of issues that paved the way for the change in her treatment of you. Not an excuse, of course. But a plausible explanation and a window for you to think that she, too, was a victim of the meds in a way that was almost impossible to control, given the circumstances. 

That's not to say she should be forgiven. It just provides some insight on what factors helped to trigger this whole sad turn of events.


----------



## Dadof3

MarriedTex said:


> No matter how remote the possibility, please mention this nausea / possible pregnancy situation to your lawyer. Weirder things have happened. You don't want to get caught by some marriage technicality paying child support on an "affair baby."
> 
> The item about the birth control shifts help put things into perspective and offer at least a possible explanation for how this got rolling. Basically, birth control shifts left her out on the road feeling more sexual than had been the case in recent years. Another factor contributing to the ****tail of issues that paved the way for the change in her treatment of you. Not an excuse, of course. But a plausible explanation and a window for you to think that she, too, was a victim of the meds in a way that was almost impossible to control, given the circumstances.
> 
> That's not to say she should be forgiven. It just provides some insight on what factors helped to trigger this whole sad turn of events.


MarriedTex just verbalized why I thought it'd be important to get her a pregnancy test instead of waiting for the OM to pay for. This type of information will be IMPORTANT in your D. You have to protect yourself. As far as her flipping, it could be a reason for her to keep - especially if she doesn't want to let you go. She might play the "rescue me" Sham umpteenth times to wear your resolve down on the D.

I also wanted to comment on the other day when Sham mentioned he stopped by and heard W and her GF talking about the injury and what Dr said about it. Some implied this might be a veiled threat - I read it as that the Dr was as skeptical as I that it was an accident. Still doesn't add up to me. Now - maybe if she is pregnant - that does all sorts of things to your brain. 

Would your STBXW possibly do anything to harm herself as a result of shame. You did mention in your other thread that she's worried about being a lonely old spinster and not being very sexy for very much longer.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> MarriedTex just verbalized why I thought it'd be important to get her a pregnancy test instead of waiting for the OM to pay for. This type of information will be IMPORTANT in your D. You have to protect yourself. As far as her flipping, it could be a reason for her to keep - especially if she doesn't want to let you go. She might play the "rescue me" Sham umpteenth times to wear your resolve down on the D.
> 
> I also wanted to comment on the other day when Sham mentioned he stopped by and heard W and her GF talking about the injury and what Dr said about it. Some implied this might be a veiled threat - I read it as that the Dr was as skeptical as I that it was an accident. Still doesn't add up to me. Now - maybe if she is pregnant - that does all sorts of things to your brain.
> 
> Would your STBXW possibly do anything to harm herself as a result of shame. You did mention in your other thread that she's worried about being a lonely old spinster and not being very sexy for very much longer.


Clearly anything is possible...but I would bet my left n*t that she wouldn't beat herself over the head, fall down the stairs, break a few ribs and pass out for hours in a pool of blood...on purpose, in order for me to feel sorry for her and raise her affair baby (and who would hurt themselves like that if they thought they may be pregnant?...she's not a rabbit boiler, as hurtful as she's been). She may have been drunk and slipped (instead of a seizure)...that's a far as I can take the realm of possibility.

OMW is very concerned about the possible pregnancy aspect (just talked with her), as that would pretty much be the last straw for her. I realllllly don't see it as a likely reality, a wild speculation at best.

I suppose I need to look into it, but let's just say my W wouldn't give me a straight answer on it unless she needed me real bad. I would have to be creative, and I haven't thought of one way to do that without being intruding and crazy guy w her or her gf. She's not pregnant guys. But I will do my best to verify.


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## Chaparral

My wife is on pain meds right now due to an operation. Shes struggling with nausea and eats crackers when she takes her meds.

Maybe you should take her a box of Zesta crackers and scope out the landscape. 

Also concerned about her mental health and worreid she might do something to herself. I've seen a lot of that and its certainly not uncommon.

Sorry your feeling down, wish you well.

PS Don't hesitate to ask her how she's doing, I doubt she would tell anyone else if she were in trouble over all this. She may just need a little opening to really talk to you if you show her some kindness.


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## Sod

Sham - If you are worried about her, talk to her and ask her. Its not a sign of weakness or ill intent to ask someone you care for if they are doing ok. It doesnt mean you are asking to get back together or displaying anything other than concern for someone you care about. You have a history with her and you would both be robots to not be concerned about the others well being even if the marriage is over regardless of what the cause of the breakdown between you.

Not everything has to be a game and not everything is a conspiracy. Just my humble opinion


----------



## golfergirl

chapparal said:


> My wife is on pain meds right now due to an operation. Shes struggling with nausea and eats crackers when she takes her meds.
> 
> Maybe you should take her a box of Zesta crackers and scope out the landscape.
> 
> Also concerned about her mental health and worreid she might do something to herself. I've seen a lot of that and its certainly not uncommon.
> 
> Sorry your feeling down, wish you well.
> 
> PS Don't hesitate to ask her how she's doing, I doubt she would tell anyone else if she were in trouble over all this. She may just need a little opening to really talk to you if you show her some kindness.


Maybe I'm cold beeyotch here, but wasn't purpose of going dark and 180 to show Mrs. Sham what life without Mr. Sham is like? Well let her learn that. She hasn't confessed nor shown any remorse, she also hasn't made any decisions. She's had bad luck, been needy and been dumped. Sham admitted he's struggling because of her change in mood. So why send him for more? It clearly isn't his baby on the WAY off chance she's pregnant, so why stress and get involved. Life without Sham means figuring it out on her own. Let her do that. It's just another consequence of the affair an d she deserves to experience it. She HAS other care, her parents, friends. Sham doesn't have to be the one bringing crackers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Sod said:


> Sham - If you are worried about her, talk to her and ask her. Its not a sign of weakness or ill intent to ask someone you care for if they are doing ok. It doesnt mean you are asking to get back together or displaying anything other than concern for someone you care about. You have a history with her and you would both be robots to not be concerned about the others well being even if the marriage is over regardless of what the cause of the breakdown between you.
> 
> Not everything has to be a game and not everything is a conspiracy. Just my humble opinion


What about having her gf ask her? My recollection is that you are still on good terms with her. If so, give the gf the facts and tell her that pregnancy crossed your mind. Your STBXW may be more forth coming to her than to you.


----------



## Cypress

Sham,

I went through a long period of wistful feelings after my marriage fell apart. I struggled with the accepting that I could not change the past. A book that helped was:

The Five Things We Cannot Change: And the Happiness We Find by Embracing Them


Everything changes and ends
Things do not always go according to plan
Life is not always fair
Pain is a part of life
People are not loving and loyal all the time.

It's a great book 

I hope this helps.

Cypress


----------



## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> Clearly anything is possible...but I would bet my left n*t that she wouldn't beat herself over the head, fall down the stairs, break a few ribs and pass out for hours in a pool of blood...on purpose, in order for me to feel sorry for her and raise her affair baby (and who would hurt themselves like that if they thought they may be pregnant?...she's not a rabbit boiler, as hurtful as she's been). She may have been drunk and slipped (instead of a seizure)...that's a far as I can take the realm of possibility.
> 
> OMW is very concerned about the possible pregnancy aspect (just talked with her), as that would pretty much be the last straw for her. I realllllly don't see it as a likely reality, a wild speculation at best.
> 
> I suppose I need to look into it, but let's just say my W wouldn't give me a straight answer on it unless she needed me real bad. I would have to be creative, and I haven't thought of one way to do that without being intruding and crazy guy w her or her gf. She's not pregnant guys. But I will do my best to verify.


As one of the leading advocates of "going dark" way back when, I'm now on the side of opening up the communication. Sham has clearly demonstrated that he can move on without her. However, uncertainty over R, her status and other issues that are out of Sam's control are contributing to Sham thinking about these things too much.

If work schedules allow, I would invite her out to lunch "in the interest of being civil." Of course, you should be prepared to ask her some tough questions in a straight-forward way that may give you closure if you never sit down to eat with her again. Foremost among these would be "Why did you do this to us?"

They say that the best cure for homesickness is going home. You recognize that "home" is not all that it's cracked up to be. That helps you move forward. More open communications now will help you recognize that the "home" of your pre-affair marriage no longer exists. The lingering thought of reviving the R will likely die of its own accord, and you'll have more psychological freedom moving forward. 

Others will disagree with this idea. I think it's the one thing you need to do in order to move forward with your life.


----------



## Dadof3

MarriedTex: Amen! Amen and AMEN!


----------



## Sod

Wholeheartedly agree with MarriedTex.
:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Shamwow

Thanks for the comments everyone. Much better today. As I suspected, yesterday just sucked no matter what, and I just rolled with it. This morning I feel quite fresh and on top of things. Roller coaster, that's all.

I'm guessing she was just ill from the meds, injury and probably not eating.

Conjecture on anything more serious was inevitable, but the worst case scenario is unlikely to say the least. I'm just gonna dive into work today and have a better day. Thanks...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## krismimo

Glad your feeling better today SHAM, it is all part of the process just do what your doing now, stay dark and keep busy.


----------



## F-102

Glad to hear you're better, Sham.

Have you ever listened to the Pink Floyd song "Poles Apart"? It reminds me of you.


----------



## Chaparral

golfergirl said:


> Maybe I'm cold beeyotch here, but wasn't purpose of going dark and 180 to show Mrs. Sham what life without Mr. Sham is like? Well let her learn that. She hasn't confessed nor shown any remorse, she also hasn't made any decisions. She's had bad luck, been needy and been dumped. Sham admitted he's struggling because of her change in mood. So why send him for more? It clearly isn't his baby on the WAY off chance she's pregnant, so why stress and get involved. Life without Sham means figuring it out on her own. Let her do that. It's just another consequence of the affair an d she deserves to experience it. She HAS other care, her parents, friends. Sham doesn't have to be the one bringing crackers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The part of the 180 that works is to get the BS ready to move on and give him the tools to deal with the situation. Sham has done as well with this as any of the posters I have seen.

Having said that, there has been no serious communication between wife and Sham since he moved out. No real attempt at closure or anything else. I don't see how she could show remorse under the circumstances. No questions asked no answers given. IDK that may be the best thing.

Who's baby would depend on what state you live in. Responsibility for a baby while married doesn't always matter who the real father is. I don't think she's preg though.


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## Almostrecovered

You know what I like about Shamwow? He soaks up everything.


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> You know what I like about Shamwow? He soaks up everything.


Don't know whether to take the compliment or smack you for the pun. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

both


----------



## bowhunter

Almostrecovered said:


> You know what I like about Shamwow? He soaks up everything.


:lol::lol::rofl::rofl:
that's funny


----------



## Shamwow

Taking her gf out for happy hour in about an hour. (I asked her for this "date" in front of my W the other day when we were at the house). I thought that was a nice touch. 

It's an "early bday present from me to her" (her bday is tomorrow). I'm sure she expects me to rake her for information. I won't be, though I may drop a few things I wouldn't mind getting back to my STBXW ("Well of course I miss my wife! Just not the person she's been the last few months...I had no choice but to move on"...maybe something about how it's too bad she can't face me over what she did,not sure, I'll play it by ear). Curious to see if she offers anything without my prompting. This is the girl that has been supportive of ME and our marriage since day one when my W started confiding in her about her doubts/the then budding affair, etc. The same one that sent me an email 2 days after I walked and went dark, to tell me how strong she thought it was for me to handle the situation the way I did...and that she had the utmost respect for my decision in those circumstances. That said, she's been there for my W the whole time too, so I'll be on my toes.

Anyway, who knows what she'll say, maybe nothing, but could be an interesting happy hour. No worries, I won't spill any of my guts that can harm my Mk II, as I can presume anything and everything I say will be relayed directly to W.

And I'll be looking sharp too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## eagleclaw

You should drop a hint that you had a date "the other night", or "met someone interesting" or what have you. Pass on a dose of this new reality but say no more than that. Peoples imaginations are much more interesting anyways.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Tell her that you can't believe how many of your EX's friends have been hitting on you. Tell her you can't name names though because some of them are married.


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## Dadof3

Sham, I thought this friend was married. Maybe I'm mistaken?

SadSadIAm - change your last sentence to: "A gentleman would never kiss and tell!"


----------



## piqued

Sham, I'd just stick to the truth.

If she asks how you're doing tell her pretty good. New outlook on life, etc., but after 8 years of course you miss who your wife used to be.

Tell her you're resolved that the relationship is over, you only wish your wife would have shown the slightest remoarse over what she did to the marriage and to you.

But tell her you're looking forward, not back. And that you've taken this opportunity to re-engage the Sham you always knew you could be; and that you like what you're seeing from this Sham.

Then, be a good friend and ask a lot of questions about her. Don't let your failed marriage dominate the conversation; that will be even more powerful when it gets back to your wife that you didn't talk about it all that much at all.

Lastly, have fun!


----------



## Catherine602

Sham take this for what it is worth. I think she is squarely in your wife's camp. Women bond by talking about personal matters and spending time together. You description of the their friendship, indicates a close emotional bond. 

It does not mean that she does not care about you, she does but she has bonded with your wife and her friendship with you is secondary.

I would carefully think about how you want to present yourself. I think you should share your plans to go forwards. A man with a plan and in command is very attractive. 

She will be searching for info too so have your A game on. Don't get drunk!


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## Dadof3

Speculation time here....

You don't think it possible that the STBXW would have her friend try to seduce you in order to "even the score" would ya or make the divorce terms more lucrative for her?

Be CAREFUL. Be VERY careful.

Good luck Sham.


----------



## girlfromipanema

I hope your happy hour date was enjoyable, Sham.

Sometimes I have to laugh at the speculation thrown around on this thread, and then I remember how nutso your wife actually acted. Who knows what's possible. My hope for you is that she starts behaving like the woman you fell respected and adored - whether or not R is on the table. I will say reconciling with someone who betrayed you is the most challenging thing I've ever gone through. My mind changes every other minute some days...

Let us know how it goes.


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## Shamwow

Home, had a good time. Dadof3, yeah she's married. A harmless "date", just wanted to take her out and chat. I think my A game came through, in full effect. After some small talk and asking how her husband and kids are I started in by just telling her "I really want to say Thank You...I know you stood up for me and our marriage when W started coming to you with doubts a while back (I do, it's in the texts). It meant a lot, just wanted to tell you that." She seemed touched, and then started talking about it. I said a few things, she did most of the talking.

She thinks W has barely even started to process the feelings from all of this, that W isn't dealing with it well. She told me she thought I was handling this way better than W is, and I seem to be in good spirits in the midst of all this. She said W as complaining about this or that, money, blah blah about how I was running the show, and she asked W what she would've done if the situation were reversed, and W totally agreed that she'd have reacted just as hard (or harder) than I have. Got a nice laugh when I said "Totally, she'd have had me in some prison w/electrodes on my nads hooked up to a car battery this last six weeks." She also thinks W is kinda jealous of my weight loss and me looking good (W has gained about 10 lbs this month it appears).

Anyway, that was about 20 minutes or so and then we chatted about random stuff after that for a couple hours.

It was fun.


----------



## aug

Was her husband there? Hiding somewhere?


----------



## morituri

Shamwow said:


> She also thinks W is kinda jealous of my weight loss and me looking good (W has gained about 10 lbs this month it appears).


Yeah eating a whole pizza every day will pack on the pounds quickly.

Now a caveat. Don't make it a habit to keep on having anymore dates with her or any other married woman. You don't want to become that which you hate.


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## krismimo

Cmon people let up he had one meeting and asked in front of his ex and more than likely she will tell her husband about what was said and what they talked about, and more than likley it will get back to his w. That was the goal. Now I wouldnt be surprised if he hears from her, either two things will happen her mood will change from good to worse, or she may try to win him back. We will see only time will tell. Keep up the good work Sham.


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## morituri

Kris, we are simply giving him a gentle reminder that he should remember his boundaries. That is all young lady.


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## Shamwow

Certainly no worries on boundaries, folks. Just took a friend out for drinks and conversation. Me and her husband are very slose, there's no reason he would be concerned about me spending time alone with her in a public place. Actually, when my W was out of town so much over the last 10 months or so, my W asked her gf to take me out for happy hours once a week (didn't happen, but we got together a few times) to keep me from getting lonely. And her husband and I got together more, going for a jog or watching a ballgame, whatever.

Seriously no big deal.

Obviously, yes, I was looking for an opportunity to posture myself as far as stbxw knows. She knew I took her gf out today, she even asked me about it later. I know trust is hard to come by these days, but there's no reason to think W was suspicious of my time with her gf. I've known her from the day I met my W. If she was suspicious, so be it. If her husband had any reason to be, he'd tell me.

It was fun though, once things loosened up we pretended we were married to the server, kinda like Sandler and Barrymore in The Wedding Singer when they go to the flower shop. Just fun, that's all. And when she started to say something about "keeping my conversation with her between us, not a go-between to my W", etc, I just said "You can feel free to tell her whatever you want. I have no secrets from W, we're just talking here."

Of course, I want some of it to get back to W. I think I played it well, guys.

I saw my W later in the evening, she began to open up.


----------



## Stonewall

Well played Naomi Price!!


----------



## Chaparral

"I saw my W later in the evening, she began to open up. "


And.......................


----------



## F-102

Sham, this could be a set-up. Tread warily, my friend.


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## Dadof3

I HATE cliffhangers... Damn you Sham! Damn you!


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## Almostrecovered

You...Klingon Bastard!!!


----------



## piqued

LOL, alright Sham....you drop a bombshell that you talked to your wife later and she started to open up and then you go dark. Well, in the interest of national security  are you going to tell us what happened?


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## Dadof3

Sham prbly got sucked in...... too busy making up for lost time to respond......

he.


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## Shamwow

Didn't mean to drop a cliffhanger, had to sleep, and busy morning today.

A few hours after I got back from happy hour with her gf, W texted me that she'd pay me 2 million dollars if I brought over some food. I texted back that I'd send that to my attorney, wait for his response, and then likely I would be by with food. She lol'd, etc. This was about 10pm. She said "You're nocturnal these days, come on over and watch a movie and we'll eat." I still shut her down, I texted her "Wish I could help. Busy night, gotta floss, do dishes, ya know. I think I'm booked."

She said "Yeah yeah, do yer thing. It's fine I had to try."

Then I took a chance and said (taking a page from her recent "preferred style" of texting with OM, a bit risky, but what have I got to lose): "Plus it'd be cutting into my drinking/m***urbation time. Priorities, you know."

Let's just say she responded very positively to the attitude, joking back about totally getting that, and firing back a little playful blue.

Then I told her okay I can come over, you win this round. Just try to stay awake.

Went over, we ate, we started watching a movie. I was all Mk II, but indulging her with some humor.

Then...out of nowhere she started to open up, slowly. She was talking about her fall down the stairs, and I joked about how I was still expecting to be arrested every day. She said she was thinking about telling the cops that OM had pushed her down the stairs, but since he lives out of town that probably wouldn't work (this is the first time she's said d-bag's name to me since I confronted her 7 weeks ago). Then she got teary and quiet and started talking a little about how he turned out to be really mean. That he really conned her. And THEN...she said "though I suppose just like I conned you."

It was on. I let her talk. She kept stopping herself and saying "it doesn't matter, we're getting divorced anyway"...but then she kept talking without any prompting from me. She said she knew our deal was that if either of us were to consider cheating that we'd end the marriage first or talk about it before doing anything. 

She said she got caught up and decided if she tried it with OM, she might find out she was totally wrong and realize what she had with me and come running back. Or she might go off with him. Or she might find that she was okay with being married, yet having a thing on the side. She said he totally screwed her over and for what it's worth she lost, and I can take some solace in that. I told her I didn't find any solace in that. I told her as badly as she hurt me by doing what she did, of course I know she's been hurting too. And that I don't hate her, I just handled the situation presented. And that of course I miss her and our marriage, but she broke our deal.

She said she handled everything totally the wrong way, but it doesn't matter because we're getting divorced anyway, so why discuss it. She said she had wanted to work it out, but since I contacted the OMW and "hurt her" and "ruined her life" (again with this bs) that she knew it was over. I reminded her that OMW had thanked me profusely for contacting her, that she had known about my W for months, and that she'd had 3 years of confusion with her H and his suspicious behavior with other women. She didn't budge on that point though. I just told her I understood how she wouldn't see it my way right now, but that I would do it all again in a heartbeat, because it was the right thing to do. She said again it doesn't matter now, so why talk about it. I said I disagree with the fact that it doesn't matter, but sure let's stop talking about it.

Then she relaxed and wanted to play me some music, a couple of songs that reminded her of me. Sad songs, i sat and listened and let her play whatever she wanted. We listened to music until 3am. During one song she put her head down in her hands on her desk and was kinda crying...I put my hand on her shoulder for the rest of the song (first time I've touched her in almost 6 weeks)...she didn't resist. After the song I removed my hand as if nothing had happened.

Didn't push any more, or mention anything along the lines of R, but I think it was good, and even if this train keeps rolling to divorce (as is certainly the plan, we talked about a lot of the details), I can take some of what she said toward closure. I finally said I should get going, she offered the couch, I thanked her but turned it down. She said thanks for coming over several times before I left. I slept well last night.

She wants to watch the ballgame tonight. I agreed. We shall see if that actually happens. She may regret opening up, etc, who knows. Taking it slow.

Either way, I feel she's starting to come out of the fog, and I'm being very careful to try and help her do so while retaining my position of power. Again, eyes wide open, guard up, but giving her a chance to keep opening up.

For better or for worse, I'm glad I went over. She finally said something about what she did. Whew.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Sort of. She owned up to it, but it's still "your fault" for contacting OMW.

She's getting there, but not still owning the full responisibility, I guess.

Don't fall into a trap- don't fall into reconciliation.

Unless you want to, of course.


----------



## Shamwow

I totally agree. I'm holding my emotions very close right now. Reminding myself of why we're here. Just finally getting a little of what I want from her, refreshing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Eli-Zor

She is on a journey as are you. If she loves you she may in the future say so , then it is your decision what to do next. 

Take what happened as a step it may lead nowhere and the D continues as is.

If she brings up the OM's wife mention you can put them in contact. Wait for the reaction.


----------



## Almostrecovered

wow


----------



## Almostrecovered

as I was reading that I was totally expecting to hear you slept with her


----------



## Almostrecovered

I like how she kept saying "It doesn't matter now but..." and by you keeping silent, she just spilled her guts out

so obvious that she wants to R but still is so full of pride to dare ask for it directly (notice how she kept probing you with statements and indirect questions), let alone beg for it like she should be doing


----------



## Shamwow

Eli-Zor said:


> If she brings up the OM's wife mention you can put them in contact. Wait for the reaction.


I had the same thought last night. I can tell her to call OMW if she needs to hear how my call actually affected her. I would definitely warn OMW first though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike11

Almostrecovered said:


> I like how she kept saying "It doesn't matter now but..." and by you keeping silent, she just spilled her guts out
> 
> so obvious that she wants to R but still is so full of pride to dare ask for it directly (notice how she kept probing you with statements and indirect questions), let alone beg for it like she should be doing


:smthumbup:


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> She kept stopping herself and saying "*it doesn't matter, we're getting divorced anyway*"...but then she kept talking without any prompting from me. She said *she knew our deal was that if either of us were to consider cheating that we'd end the marriage first* or talk about it before doing anything.
> 
> 
> She said she handled everything totally the wrong way, *but it doesn't matter because we're getting divorced anyway*, so why discuss it.* She said she had wanted to work it out, but since I contacted the OMW and "hurt her" and "ruined her life" (again with this bs) that she knew it was over. *
> 
> Then she relaxed and *wanted to play me some music, a couple of songs that reminded her of me*. Sad songs, i sat and listened and let her play whatever she wanted. We listened to music until 3am. *During one song she put her head down in her hands on her desk and was kinda crying*...I put my hand on her shoulder for the rest of the song (first time I've touched her in almost 6 weeks)...she didn't resist. After the song I removed my hand as if nothing had happened.
> 
> she offered the couch, I thanked her but turned it down.* She said thanks for coming over several times before I left.* I slept well last night.
> 
> *She wants to watch the ballgame tonight.* I agreed. We shall see if that actually happens. She may regret opening up, etc, who knows. Taking it slow.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



everything I bolded indicates she wants R but doesn't want to be the one to ask for it unless she knows for sure you are willing. Some cases she wants you to contradict what she is saying, some cases she is trying to show that she still loves you (music), some cases she is trying to keep the door open so to speak. (by keeping you doing things with her)


Be very careful my friend and KNOW WHAT YOU WANT AND WHAT YOU NEED


----------



## SadSamIAm

I don't like the way she thinks regarding you telling the OMW about the affair.

I think she truly believes you were wrong and that she was fine to sleep with her husband, as long as the OMF didn't find out about it. I wonder how many other people she has cheated with as I think she can easily do it and not have it bother her conscience (because it didn't hurt anyone (you) because you didn't know about it).

It speaks to her morals and character.


----------



## CJ2

seeking sanity said:


> I believe this to be true, but what I don't agree with is that the suffering of our ex's is somehow justice we should enjoy. To me it's just more sad. Sure they've hurt us and we want to react to this pain, but during my various separations, I didn't once "enjoy" the suffering and pain my ex was going through.
> 
> I don't understand this sentiment.


I hope mine falls right apart and finds herself on the street right where she chose to be till 5am every morning while I was home with my sick son. She could have had it good and she gave it away , so I say let them reap what they sow ! That just my perspective though.


----------



## Shaggy

Keep in mind that she has never talked with OMW so everything she knows about what went on with Sham and OMW comes twisted through the OM. So it's going to be heavily nasty toward Sham.


Sham you might point that out next time she says something about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mike11

SadSamIAm said:


> I don't like the way she thinks regarding you telling the OMW about the affair.
> 
> I think she truly believes you were wrong and that she was fine to sleep with her husband, as long as the OMF didn't find out about it. I wonder how many other people she has cheated with as I think she can easily do it and not have it bother her conscience (because it didn't hurt anyone (you) because you didn't know about it).
> 
> It speaks to her morals and character.


Based on what I have read so far I would not put it to morals, 
more of her character, she is hanging for dear life to what wee bit shred had left from her pride and (I have seen my wife do the same when she was cornered in a heated argument)
She is way to smart to my opinion to really believe this high school drama type of antics


----------



## Voiceofreason

Shamwow said:


> I had the same thought last night. I can tell her to call OMW if she needs to hear how my call actually affected her. I would definitely warn OMW first though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 so by parity of reasoning, you were were out of line finding about about her affair on your own...you hurt yourself and ruined your life...you should have been happy to live in the fantasy world that she and D-bag constructed...and you also hurt and ruined OMW's life byallowing her finally to live in...ummm...what's that called?....oh yeah...REALITY...and not WW's/OM's fantasy world of hidden betrayal and lies...

she is still deep in the fog...she regrets what has happened and the consequences but I'm not seeing a lot of remorse...heck...there still seems to be very little actual apology...just explanation...all about her...


----------



## Gabriel

Does anyone else here think that this whole thing might be a ploy by Sham's STBX to get him back and regain her power over him?

I mean, we all know from this story how smart, conniving, and ruthless she is about Sham and what she has done to him. I personally think this is all an act to save face. If she succeeds in getting Sham back she will have won, and I can see her face when Sham's not looking. Her face will have that devilish smile.

That's my take. She tried to play the game her way, and lost. So now she needs to regroup and play it a different way. I don't trust this person at all. The whole double and triple thanking him for coming over? Her throwing out the line of "well, it doesn' matter since we're getting divorced anyway.." She is fishing for Sham to take the bait and get sucked back in.

I hope Sham doesn't fall for this and begin to think of R. Because if he does, she will just have more power than ever before, and be more apt to do this again.


----------



## WhereAmI

Voiceofreason said:


> so by parity of reasoning, you were were out of line finding about about her affair on your own...you hurt yourself and ruined your life...you should have been happy to live in the fantasy world that she and D-bag constructed...and you also hurt and ruined OMW's life byallowing her finally to live in...ummm...what's that called?....oh yeah...REALITY...and not WW's/OM's fantasy world of hidden betrayal and lies...
> 
> she is still deep in the fog...she regrets what has happened and the consequences but I'm not seeing a lot of remorse...heck...there still seems to be very little actual apology...just explanation...all about her...


Yep. She regrets her current position, not what got her here. She wants her old life given back to her without doing the hard work, which is why she made so many leading statements. Luckily she still revealed her hand when accusing Sham of hurting the OMW. Hopefully she doesn't get any better at this game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gearhead65

So since everyone one has an opinion, I'll throw out mine. 

She's scared, she's panicked, and she wants her life preserver. Only Sham can decide if that is appropriate. I would recommend he stay the course and get her to the point of true repentance and reconciliation. They can and will say anything to maintain the illusion. You have to let that wear off.

But you know what they say about opinions...


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Additionally- you gave her a chance to "work it out."

If this her idea of an apology, it's pretty darn weak. 

Don't buy into it. She's sad about where she is, not what got her here, as WhereAmI said. 

I get that you want to be nice or cool with her to facilitate the divorce. But don't fall down this slippery slope.

Again, unless that's what you want.

She's flailing here, desperately.


----------



## sh0t

IN some ways, I like her reaction about the OMW. Her being stubborn on some points, but opening up about others, tells me her opening up is genuine. If she suddenly agreed with sham about the OMW, I would suspect trickery. But this feels more honest.

I had a feeling sham's story would get to this point. How he described his wife and contrast with her current actions shows she was in a deep fog and she is slowly emerging. That's how affairs are.

I dunno how sham feels about his 'wife' at this point in time, but just as a matter of interest, I would inquire about R. You can't play games all the time, and if the main goal is divorce, you have NOTHING to lose anyway. 

I love these forums, but sometimes people get too wrapped up in the melodrama and forget that real people are involved.

This is a good time to suggest that book 'HOld me Tight".


----------



## Mike11

sh0t said:


> IN some ways, I like her reaction about the OMW. Her being stubborn on some points, but opening up about others, tells me her opening up is genuine. If she suddenly agreed with sham about the OMW, I would suspect trickery. But this feels more honest.
> 
> I had a feeling sham's story would get to this point. How he described his wife and contrast with her current actions shows she was in a deep fog and she is slowly emerging. That's how affairs are.
> 
> I dunno how sham feels about his 'wife' at this point in time, but just as a matter of interest, I would inquire about R. You can't play games all the time, and if the main goal is divorce, you have NOTHING to lose anyway.
> 
> I love these forums, but sometimes people get too wrapped up in the melodrama and forget that real people are involved.
> 
> This is a good time to suggest that book 'HOld me Tight".


Words of wisdom :smthumbup::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Whereas I would see inquiring about R without the intent of going thru with it as game playing. And I see her coming somewhat clean but not all of the way as a desperate "I messed up, but you did too, so two wrongs make a right, we both suck and come back to me."

But, YMMV. And Sham can change his mind about all of this. I would say that, given what he has told us, R would be a bad thing. But I'm not Sham.


----------



## Dadof3

Because of the lack of remorse, I see a narrative forming here (and as I predicted so far). She's pulling for Sham Mk I and she isn't going to come clean about everything - at least not yet. 

The comment about OMW, WTF? To hear her use that as her anchor. Sham - it was good for you to get what you've gotten, however, these sticking points (like OMW contacted) need to be responded to with some facts & logic. These need to be taken from her, out of her arsenal.

I still think she is a serial *cheater*. This wasn't her first. Its the only one she'll cop to since she was caught. She is very calculating and manipulative. Sham - wouldn't hurt for you to drop her some speculation on your part (prior suspicious activities- like the the local hotel - how far does a person have to go short of actual intercourse to say they got "hit on" - especially when it coincided with one of her other coworkers being in your town that same weekend) and let her know that she was all over the place, besides DB McGee.

Let her think about that for a while. (It is a logical conclusion, while it is speculation - but where theres smoke, theres fire, thus we've seen before)

Admirable, but I wonder if Sham is too available and not enough business like. Your W isn't your GF anymore - she's DB McGee's. 

Wow.


----------



## piqued

The question is would she be feeling and acting this way (toward R) if she wasn't looking for a life-preserver?

If, as her GF said, she wasn't struggling with money, gotten dumped by OM, and left all alone would she be showing any of this (however slight) contrition?

If she didn't currently perceive herself as penniless, and if the OM was still sexting her and talking about leaving his wife would she even give Sham the time of day, or would he just be that baggage she finally was able to pry herself away from?

These are real questions, and things that Sham should really consider before, if, and when he enbarks on a friendly relationship with her, let alone contemplate a R.

In Sham's heart of hearts I bet he'd love and welcome his old wife back. And, I think she knows Sham well enough to realize this. So, she plays the role of the sad, contrite little wifey to get what she wants. It doesn't solve anything. All it does is give her a life preserver but still leaving the root of the problem (whatever caused her to stray) unmended and it doesn't erase the fact that she went and voluntarily got laid by someone else. It wasn't a one night mistake, it was a courtship and it was planned out in great detail. And, once she is secure in her surroundings (has Sham back) it puts Sham at great risk of being hurt again. As she even said to Sham..."as I conned you".

Might she be sincere? Perhaps, but based on the 200 pages of these threads she seems pretty damn capable of being whoever she needs to be to get what she wants.

Trust is a valuable thing. When there is no trust there is nothing, regardless of one's (Sham's) feelings.


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## golfergirl

Dadof3 said:


> Because of the lack of remorse, I see a narrative forming here (and as I predicted so far). She's pulling for Sham Mk I and she isn't going to come clean about everything - at least not yet.
> 
> The comment about OMW, WTF? To hear her use that as her anchor. Sham - it was good for you to get what you've gotten, however, these sticking points (like OMW contacted) need to be responded to with some facts & logic. These need to be taken from her, out of her arsenal.
> 
> I still think she is a serial *cheater*. This wasn't her first. Its the only one she'll cop to since she was caught. She is very calculating and manipulative. Sham - wouldn't hurt for you to drop her some speculation on your part (prior suspicious activities- like the the local hotel - how far does a person have to go short of actual intercourse to say they got "hit on" - especially when it coincided with one of her other coworkers being in your town that same weekend) and let her know that she was all over the place, besides DB McGee.
> 
> Let her think about that for a while. (It is a logical conclusion, while it is speculation - but where theres smoke, theres fire, thus we've seen before)
> 
> Admirable, but I wonder if Sham is too available and not enough business like. Your W isn't your GF anymore - she's DB McGee's.
> 
> Wow.


If what happened last night gives the warm and fuzzies - WOW! If that's her being soft - that's just sad. All about her and how her married lover f'ed her over. And how even though he is mean she was willing to choose him over Sham. And even admitted that choice was on the table. Again WOW!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Scratch all that.

Sick to my stomach again.

Just found out that after I left (almost 6 weeks ago now) stbxw reached out to an old hs friend who moved to town last year (many actually, and whatever, that's her right, hell, I've contacted some too). He is recently divorced. Anyway, turns out she's texting dirty with HIM now, and has even sent nude pics to him (and him to her). She's friggin' addicted to fake love I guess. I mean come on, he lives 20 minutes away...yet instead of, oh I don't know...setting up a date with him if that's what she wants, she just goes for the sexting. She really moved fast on this one, she made D-Bag McGee wait at least a month before sending pics.

I now recall that last night (before I knew the above) my W mentioned him in some anecdote and I said "10 bucks he's hitting on you." She said "Well, yeah, a little." But she was in the middle of "opening up", and she kept talking and I kept listening.

Anyway, her gf told me that she's asked him to back off from her, and it appears he did, but I know he'll eventually crumble to the "easy ho-bag" vibe she's putting out there. He even showed a pic of her ****y to his buddies. (Also know from the original texts that she lost her phone while on the road in late July...she was very concerned about the 2500+ pics that she was "losing". She never found the phone. Clearly she was more concerned about the actual content of those pics, and now they're probably all over the internet, assuming whoever found it bypassed her passcode.)

Granted this "discourse" with this hs friend d-bag was 3-4 weeks ago, and I was still fully dark then, and she was more concerned with getting over loss of the OM than than anything to do with me (which is still probably the case, I'm not blind here guys, just human). She was also still in full-on "get back at me" mode, as she was until about 2 weeks ago. So it may not have any direct bearing on our recent warming, but jeezus man. She just got strung along (willingly) for months via sext by D-Bag McGee, he finally did her, and then he DUMPED her. Why on earth would she start right in doing the exact same thing again with someone else?? She will seduce him eventually, he will do her, and he will DUMP her (if this hasn't already occurred). Rinse and repeat. Okay, fine. If she wants to play lil' miss drunk party b*tch w no panties on tonight, or whatever, her choice. This behavior is so far from anything I ever saw from her until June, that I just don't even know what to do with it.

I'm dumbfounded all over again, and I know I shouldn't be. That's what I get for letting the anger/distrust dissipate even a little. She is so effing stupid. It's like she's mentally ill...and to put on the whole show last night...sigh. Granted she was only talking to me about D-Bag McGee, and just starting to talk to me in general about what happened, but she clearly is a lost soul these days. She has completely and totally driven her life into the ground, and I have no idea how I can even help at this point. Guess I should stop trying.

Want to throw something. Clearly I let her into my heart just a little, and it's not doing me any good (as you all warned, and I certainly admitted I knew was dangerous over the last week and a half since her injury). Really was hoping for more from her. Why? Cuz I'm human, male, and therefore a d*mbass due to the combo.

Guess I'll be cancelling on the ballgame tomorrow night. (I misspoke in my previous post that it was tonight) Think I'm back to not being able to look at her. So sad. So sorry to let myself get attached again, even a little. 

I have to take some xanax and go for a walk now.


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## gearhead65

Go for a RUN! And continue to RUN when she comes your way. There isn't anything there for you until she regains some sanity. If it ever happens. Then it is up to you to decide if what is left of her is what you need. I feel for you man. 

Don't beat yourself up too much. Optimism is a good thing, but being optimistic in this challenging of a situation is just hard. Keep your distance, take care of yourself, and take care of her needs from you after say...the dogs crap on the rug.

GearHead


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## CJ2

It will never get better. In saying that , I have become very codependent over the years and if you are not aware of codependency , I suggest you read up on it. It is very enlightening and will explain alot of things to you. You definitely have symptoms of it and like me have become a prisoner to it. You need to never look back . I am just starting back on my road and it is gonna be a long drive by the looks. My whole story at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32750-very-lost-broken-very-long.html#post444659 it will show you a life of codependant behavior. We are enablers and we allow this to happen to us. We actually desire and beg for it to happen again !


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Scratch all that.
> 
> Sick to my stomach again.
> 
> Just found out that after I left (almost 6 weeks ago now) stbxw reached out to an old hs friend who moved to town last year (many actually, and whatever, that's her right, hell, I've contacted some too). He is recently divorced. Anyway, turns out she's texting dirty with HIM now, and has even sent nude pics to him (and him to her). She's friggin' addicted to fake love I guess. I mean come on, he lives 20 minutes away...yet instead of, oh I don't know...setting up a date with him if that's what she wants, she just goes for the sexting. She really moved fast on this one, she made D-Bag McGee wait at least a month before sending pics.
> 
> I now recall that last night (before I knew the above) my W mentioned him in some anecdote and I said "10 bucks he's hitting on you." She said "Well, yeah, a little." But she was in the middle of "opening up", and she kept talking and I kept listening.
> 
> Anyway, her gf told me that she's asked him to back off from her, and it appears he did, but I know he'll eventually crumble to the "easy ho-bag" vibe she's putting out there. He even showed a pic of her ****y to his buddies. (Also know from the original texts that she lost her phone while on the road in late July...she was very concerned about the 2500+ pics that she was "losing". She never found the phone. Clearly she was more concerned about the actual content of those pics, and now they're probably all over the internet, assuming whoever found it bypassed her passcode.)
> 
> Granted this "discourse" with this hs friend d-bag was 3-4 weeks ago, and I was still fully dark then, and she was more concerned with getting over loss of the OM than than anything to do with me (which is still probably the case, I'm not blind here guys, just human). She was also still in full-on "get back at me" mode, as she was until about 2 weeks ago. So it may not have any direct bearing on our recent warming, but jeezus man. She just got strung along (willingly) for months via sext by D-Bag McGee, he finally did her, and then he DUMPED her. Why on earth would she start right in doing the exact same thing again with someone else?? She will seduce him eventually, he will do her, and he will DUMP her (if this hasn't already occurred). Rinse and repeat. Okay, fine. If she wants to play lil' miss drunk party b*tch w no panties on tonight, or whatever, her choice. This behavior is so far from anything I ever saw from her until June, that I just don't even know what to do with it.
> 
> I'm dumbfounded all over again, and I know I shouldn't be. That's what I get for letting the anger/distrust dissipate even a little. She is so effing stupid. It's like she's mentally ill...and to put on the whole show last night...sigh. Granted she was only talking to me about D-Bag McGee, and just starting to talk to me in general about what happened, but she clearly is a lost soul these days. She has completely and totally driven her life into the ground, and I have no idea how I can even help at this point. Guess I should stop trying.
> 
> Want to throw something. Clearly I let her into my heart just a little, and it's not doing me any good (as you all warned, and I certainly admitted I knew was dangerous over the last week and a half since her injury). Really was hoping for more from her. Why? Cuz I'm human, male, and therefore a d*mbass due to the combo.
> 
> Guess I'll be cancelling on the ballgame tomorrow night. (I misspoke in my previous post that it was tonight) Think I'm back to not being able to look at her. So sad. So sorry to let myself get attached again, even a little.
> 
> I have to take some xanax and go for a walk now.


We warn because we care about you. You love her, we don't so we can be cold from the sidelines because while we care about you, we aren't invested in her like you are.
Take comfort that she didn't see you moment of weakness.
You're a good man with a good heart - it's not a fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frigginlost

Sham, I have been following from the beginning and what you have been though is brutal. What I am going to say is going to piss a lot of folks off, but the decision is yours. I think you should go to the game with her... Hear her out. She just might own up to it and explain why... You had her nuts over the fire by going dark and she probably freaked. Bad. It was not right what she did... But the dude is divorced and she is just about to be. He may have been a convinient life raft. The key is that she told him to back off. Don't trust right now... Just listen. I'd love to share a beer with you some day as your actions have helped me immensely with the separation I'm going through with the wife....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Come on over, frigginlost, I'm up for one right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

All that said, when she got hurt, she wanted me there. HS d-bag was hounding her for days to come and help. She turned him down. Though when I made my offer to come by a few times a day to look after her those first few days se was laid up, she asked HIM what he thought about it, he said "Awkward, probably not a good idea." 

For the record, clearly I broke my vow of no spying, and grabbed her most recent text log from her computer today (it goes up til a week ago). Hence my new info. Felt bad when I did it, but I figured if I'm even considering R that I need to gauge her as best as I can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

She's out tonight for a bday party for one of her toxic coworkers. Thought about telling her to make sure to tell them I DIDN'T say hi. Nice fantasy, resisted the urge though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Next weekend she leaves on the road for the better part of a month. Either nothing changes in the next week and it'll be fully therapeutic for me to be apart from her, or she breaks down all the way, talks R, and on the chance (20/80?) that I even consider I will be on the road with her every day she's gone. guessing we can all guess which of those options is more likely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frigginlost

Yup... In my opinion he is someone convenient. It makes sense for her to ask him because he is divorced. The awkward is from him not her. He is looking for a piece of ass. She was looking for anything to cling on to as the divorce is screwing with her. You're not divorced yet so you still have the right to snoop. I still would hear her out. What can it hurt? The worse that could happen is you get divorced... The best would be you might get some honesty out of her....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: With Golfer Girl I went through the same thing with my ex. Your ex ...was....baiting you my friend. She was getting you to feel sorry for her then(In her mind hopefully get back together and she hasn't learned her lesson.)

I think in your case Sham, she not only did not learn her lesson for the reason why you left her, but also because I feel and I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that she thinks that YOU WILL NOT GO THROUGH WITH THE DIVORCE. She doesn't take what your doing and how you feel seriously. She felt if she said the right things pulled the right strings you would come running back to her. But Sham do not feel bad for what you did I mean she still has no idea what you now know. It makes sense as to why she kept saying "It doesn't matter were getting divorced". 

My friend you can't be surprised because if she truly feels that the marriage is over and you yourself already feel that way, then you have to let her go, look at this as closure that you made the right decision, it could have been worse, you could have forgiven her then got back with her then find this out. (I did that before and trust me that hurt more than the first time, because I thought we were "past" it.) It is normal to feel that way because when you spoke to your wife you probably felt and saw signs of the old her coming back. If you can try not to see her again in your old home because it all plays a part on your mind, all the memories, the love, good times and bad. You are a good man Sham, go dark but also put you first. And when you have doubt just go back to WHY you left her to begin with. You miss the way she used to be, not the person she is NOW, a lot of times we get caught up in the person we want to fall in love with VS THE REALITY of the situation. If I may make a suggestion? Can you get away for a week maybe a few days? Just to get away change a location just take off and reflect. Maybe that will do you some good.  Take Care Sham -KRIS


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## Shamwow

frigginlost said:


> Yup... In my opinion he is someone convenient. It makes sense for her to ask him because he is divorced. The awkward is from him not her. He is looking for a piece of ass. She was looking for anything to cling on to as the divorce is screwing with her. You're not divorced yet so you still have the right to snoop. I still would hear her out. What can it hurt? The worse that could happen is you get divorced... The best would be you might get some honesty out of her....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, of course there is sense in this...and we'll see how I feel tomorrow. Generally, when I flip out, I post, and THEN calm down. Xanax has started kicking in already and I'm a little more even keeled now. FML.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frigginlost

Xanax has been my savior as well.... Had a rough day myself and took a pill an hour ago. It does help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

You had to let it out, it happens.


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## Shamwow

krismimo said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree: With Golfer Girl I went through the same thing with my ex. Your ex ...was....baiting you my friend. She was getting you to feel sorry for her then(In her mind hopefully get back together and she hasn't learned her lesson.)
> 
> I think in your case Sham, she not only did not learn her lesson for the reason why you left her, but also because I feel and I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that she thinks that YOU WILL NOT GO THROUGH WITH THE DIVORCE. She doesn't take what your doing and how you feel seriously. She felt if she said the right things pulled the right strings you would come running back to her. But Sham do not feel bad for what you did I mean she still has no idea what you now know. It makes sense as to why she kept saying "It doesn't matter were getting divorced".
> 
> My friend you can't be surprised because if she truly feels that the marriage is over and you yourself already feel that way, then you have to let her go, look at this as closure that you made the right decision, it could have been worse, you could have forgiven her then got back with her then find this out. (I did that before and trust me that hurt more than the first time, because I thought we were "past" it.) It is normal to feel that way because when you spoke to your wife you probably felt and saw signs of the old her coming back. If you can try not to see her again in your old home because it all plays a part on your mind, all the memories, the love, good times and bad. You are a good man Sham, go dark but also put you first. And when you have doubt just go back to WHY you left her to begin with. You miss the way she used to be, not the person she is NOW, a lot of times we get caught up in the person we want to fall in love with VS THE REALITY of the situation. If I may make a suggestion? Can you get away for a week maybe a few days? Just to get away change a location just take off and reflect. Maybe that will do you some good.  Take Care Sham -KRIS


Curious why she would think I wouldn't go through with the D, after playing such a hard game when I left...maybe because she hasn't seen Mk II in action (face to face) until almost 2 weeks ago?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## piqued

I get the feeling your wife really doesn't like being alone.

For whatever reason (midlife, unhappiness, self-esteem, etc.) she found the great sexual adventure of the internet and like so many millions, wanted to turn the fantasy into reality.

She did, and she got burned. Now she's left all alone. When she feels alone what does she do? She shows Sham a glimpse of the old W, get's that heart to ache once again, and - if she plays her cards right - gets Sham back so she doesn't feel so alone. However, nothing, absolutely nothing that she has said or done so far would make me believe for a second she wouldn't cheat on you again.

Just as the old HS friend was a warm male to flirt with, you must recognize Sham that so are you! And, as you've admitted before through this episode, she does know how to push your buttons.

She saw Sham 2.0 and she knew that she was conquered and alone. Show a little contrition, shed a tear, flirt it up with Sham and she just might melt that 2.0 and get Sham back to being a beta.

I feel for you, bro. I do. Somewhere in her brain she probably has real love and real respect for you. But that place is small and very removed. What fills most of her brain is HER sense of need. And right now she NEEDS you, that it why she WANTS you. Sadly, once that need dissipates, the want will as well. And then, whether you're sitting on the couch watching TV with her or she's on a plane on the road, you can be rest assured she'll be sexting with the next great thing that tickles her excitement bone.

You're right. Where she has gone and what she has done to herself is almost beyond recognition. It is not your cross to carry, nor is it healthy for you to want to carry it.

It's time to let go. You guys (her especially) are so far removed from any pragmatic and sincere R that to even contemplate that now is only f**king with your own emotions.

She has a long way to go to fix herself before either of you should think about fixing your marriage.

BTW, to answer your own question, she doesn't think you'll go through with it because she senses her "tactics" are working on you, and melting your hard (Sham 2.0) edges into an again maleable substrate.


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## piqued

Nobody says "it doesn't matter now, we're getting divorced" three times and means it. Translation: "I'd like it to matter, and I'd be willing to talk about it if only we can dispense with this whole ugly idea of divorce."

Fact of the matter is it DOES matter because it DID matter when the two of you were (still are) married. She effed up as a person and as a wife, and just because you're leaving doesn't mean she should shy away from cutting to the chase. If she had any respect and/or love for you it WOULD STILL MATTER TO HER to tell you the things to which she alludes.

Saying "it doesn't matter now" is a cop out and an childish attempt at training a dog. She's waiting for YOU to say "c'mon honey, really, tell me, it might make a difference."

I know you know this already, but after the events of the last couple of days I thought the loving need to pound you over the head with this so you can realize she is still trying to manipulate and operate from a position of power even though she has none.

Happy Meds!!!


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Curious why she would think I wouldn't go through with the D, after playing such a hard game when I left...maybe because she hasn't seen Mk II in action (face to face) until almost 2 weeks ago?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You left tough. Past week and a half she makes a request, you provide it. She cancels, you feel sad. I honestly would have been surprised if you wouldn't have R'd in the next week had you not foud new texts. Even now you're looking for a glimmer of hope when what excited you as a warm exchange and her opening up was sad and self-serving. I hope for your sake she goes back on the road and leaves you alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lht285

Frankly I think you are seeing the real person that your stbx has always been. You just have your rose colored glasses removed. I am betting she has always had a piece on the side. I expect that in the past she fueled her hornyness for you with them. She might have contained it for a while but then you were no longer new and thrilling. She has always had her cake and eaten it too, until now. She was hoping to have a life like they write about in Penthouse letters, you showed her that those lifestyles don't work for you. She wants to be a swinger, but without the trust and communication she is just a cheater. I would stay away from her, she is toxic. She is using sex like a drug, and she is an addict.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

No matter the path you chose for the future you should text her and tell her you've heard a rumor from two (or more) people that Dirt Bag 2 is showing pictures of her off to his friends. 

I'm also thinking that a message be sent to Dirt Bag 2.

She's been scammed again. Maybe this time she will wake up.


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## Dadof3

chapparal said:


> No matter the path you chose for the future you should text her and tell her you've heard a rumor from two (or more) people that Dirt Bag 2 is showing pictures of her off to his friends.
> 
> I'm also thinking that a message be sent to Dirt Bag 2.
> 
> She's been scammed again. Maybe this time she will wake up.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

There's some sense here. She needs to know that you know that she is a SERIAL CHEATER. Games over. No more chances. From this point, it should be easier to ignore her and get that divorce done, move on with your life. 

You should only consider an R, when she is continually doing the heavy lifting of the relationship. You know what that means. We've beat it into your head already. The only person lifting at all right now, is you. This is sad. Maybe its time for you to start dating - not courting for marriage, but enough to know there is other women out there who'd not betray you like this. 

You are almost there Sham. We are pulling for ya.


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## MarriedTex

chapparal said:


> No matter the path you chose for the future you should text her and tell her you've heard a rumor from two (or more) people that Dirt Bag 2 is showing pictures of her off to his friends.
> 
> I'm also thinking that a message be sent to Dirt Bag 2.
> 
> She's been scammed again. Maybe this time she will wake up.


I think this is stellar idea. Re-confirms that you know when she does ****ty things but does so in way where you're looking out for her reputation/welfare. Leaves options open.

I'm not as outraged as you or others are by her behavior with d-bag. You were out of the picture. She was - for all intents and purposes - a true free agent. Certainly shows no remorse for destroying the relationship you had with her, I agree. 

I thought dialogue with her would be good to obtain closure. I would remain guarded in thinking long-term R. If she's still on the road for work, how could you trust her?


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## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> There's some sense here. She needs to know that you know that she is a SERIAL CHEATER. Games over. No more chances. From this point, it should be easier to ignore her and get that divorce done, move on with your life.
> 
> You should only consider an R, when she is continually doing the heavy lifting of the relationship. You know what that means. We've beat it into your head already. The only person lifting at all right now, is you. This is sad. Maybe its time for you to start dating - not courting for marriage, but enough to know there is other women out there who'd not betray you like this.
> 
> You are almost there Sham. We are pulling for ya.


I agree, at the moment in my head, and what I'm posting here, I'm doing the lifting. What she knows is entirely different (unless my 180 has been a complete failure, which I would dispute).

I somehow put myself into a position of convincing her it's okay to tell me what's on her mind, with one or two statements a week ago...she has just now started trying. Certainly not "heavy" lifting, but lifting nonetheless. It's at least *something* from her, hence it got my attention, and it came from her, she started the conversation. I haven't been begging her for this (I've been ranting here and to my therapist, but she gets Danny Ocean from me), I told her once last week that of course the last few months have been totally ***ed, and if she wants to talk about what happened, she has my number.

So she called my number...and wanted to talk. I let her talk because that's what I'd told her I would do. I was surprised. Guess the momentary satisfaction dug into me more than I expected, and while I showed her a relaxing evening by paying attention to what she was saying, I didn't go any where stupid and start talking about the old days or what we can do to fix this. I just assured her I wanted to hear what she had to say. 

Serial cheater? Yeah, her recent behavior is off the rails and it blows my mind. Whether she's done this for years, I just can't speculate. All I know is how our marriage *felt* until June. And if it hadn't been for gut feelings, I'd never have found this forum and figured out what was going on. So I'm just going with my gut that this is primarily a recent thing, at least as far as behavior...can't say what was going on in her mind earlier though. Maybe my gut isn't always right in the end, but so far by the odds, I'd say worth following.

Yesterday it said "Hey, she might be coming around"...today it says "Who the h*ll is this woman really?". Wonder about tomorrow.


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## golfergirl

You remind me so much of my brother. A long time ago he found his wife cheating blatantly on him. She would throw him a crumb and he'd get his hopes up. This went back and forth for some time until he met another lady. Well until he met this polar opposite really decent lady, he thought what he had with his ex was decent and just needed work. It's like the boiled frog analogy. If you throw the frog in boiling water, it's such a shock it hops out. If you put the frog in and slowly boil the water, it slowly gets used to the tempurature and stays til it's boiled. You're used to the boiling water. That's why these totally self-serving pathetic attempts from her are a big deal for you. You've learned to not expect better from her (slowly getting adjusted to the boiling water). From the outside, some of us are shocked and outraged (we hopped in the boiling water), because you are conditioned to her crap.
I know it's your life and you not me must live with the outcome, but I haven't seen anything from her that shows she's thinking of anyone but herself.
My wish for you is that you end up like my brother. Away from the toxic woman and meet someone new (eventually) that is like a breath of fresh air. Recently in total happiness my brother has said to me that until this relationship, he hadn't realized that being with someone didn't have to be so f'en hard.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stonewall

Don't be too hard on yourself Sham. You have played this better than anyone I have ever seen. Even the best pros don't always bring their A game. You had a small fumble but you recovered the ball. Start moving the ball down the field again. Look forward not back. You da man, keep doing what your doing just learn from your mistake you'll be fine bro!


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## Chaparral

I think she does feel the divorce is a fore gone conclusion. And reaching out to the other man is a woman acting out of desperation. Fortunately he has played her for a fool. The reason I suggested you tell her it was a rumor was so she might save a little self respect. 

I also believe she would like to reconcile,realizing what she has done, but sees no hope because of the 180. You may have to throw her a bone to get her to admit it.

How you would ever acertain her validity however is all on you. Keep spying? Tricky


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## krismimo

But all speculations to the side, it is what you decide and you want to do. And to answer your question regarding my post, I think she thought she could do whatever she wanted without you there, and her true colors are coming through. So here is a tough question, What do you really want? Think of the pros and cons and be honest with yourself.


----------



## harusty

golfergirl said:


> You remind me so much of my brother. A long time ago he found his wife cheating blatantly on him. She would throw him a crumb and he'd get his hopes up. This went back and forth for some time until he met another lady. Well until he met this polar opposite really decent lady, he thought what he had with his ex was decent and just needed work. It's like the boiled frog analogy. If you throw the frog in boiling water, it's such a shock it hops out. If you put the frog in and slowly boil the water, it slowly gets used to the tempurature and stays til it's boiled. You're used to the boiling water. That's why these totally self-serving pathetic attempts from her are a big deal for you. You've learned to not expect better from her (slowly getting adjusted to the boiling water). From the outside, some of us are shocked and outraged (we hopped in the boiling water), because you are conditioned to her crap.
> I know it's your life and you not me must live with the outcome, but I haven't seen anything from her that shows she's thinking of anyone but herself.
> My wish for you is that you end up like my brother. Away from the toxic woman and meet someone new (eventually) that is like a breath of fresh air. Recently in total happiness my brother has said to me that until this relationship, he hadn't realized that being with someone didn't have to be so f'en hard.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This is similar to my own story. I spent 2 years trying to R with my ex wife before I finally had enough. I have now been remarried for 16 years to someone who takes her vows seriously. I look at my ex now and wonder what I ever saw in her. She is much older now and has nothing to show for her entire life but broken promises and regrets. At the time though I was in a slow boil.
You have talked about trusting your gut. When you started to post about warming up to your STBXW my gut was screaming, NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! DON"T DO IT SHAM!!!!!!! I've learned to trust my gut the hard way and it rarely lets me down. I think you know in your gut what you have to do, but I know it sucks. You have an incredible character and unfortunately she does'nt deserve to be the recipient of it. Go with your gut and I assure you that someday you will look back and wonder what you ever saw in her. F*** her, you deserve better! Stand strong Sham.

Rusty


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> I agree, at the moment in my head, and what I'm posting here, I'm doing the lifting. What she knows is entirely different (*unless my 180 has been a complete failure, which I would dispute*).
> 
> I somehow put myself into a position of convincing her it's okay to tell me what's on her mind, with one or two statements a week ago...*she has just now started trying. Certainly not "heavy" lifting, but lifting nonetheless*. It's at least *something* from her, hence it got my attention, and it came from her, she started the conversation. I haven't been begging her for this (I've been ranting here and to my therapist, but she gets Danny Ocean from me), I told her once last week that of course the last few months have been totally ***ed, and *if she wants to talk about what happened, she has my number.*
> 
> *So she called my number...and wanted to talk.* I let her talk because that's what I'd told her I would do. I was surprised. Guess the momentary satisfaction dug into me more than I expected, and while I showed her a relaxing evening by paying attention to what she was saying, I didn't go any where stupid and start talking about the old days or what we can do to fix this. I just assured her I wanted to hear what she had to say.
> 
> Serial cheater? Yeah, her recent behavior is off the rails and it blows my mind. Whether she's done this for years, I just can't speculate. *All I know is how our marriage *felt* until June. And if it hadn't been for gut feelings, I'd never have found this forum and figured out what was going on. So I'm just going with my gut that this is primarily a recent thing, at least as far as behavior...can't say what was going on in her mind earlier though. Maybe my gut isn't always right in the end, but so far by the odds, I'd say worth following.*
> 
> Yesterday it said "Hey, she might be coming around"...today it says "Who the h*ll is this woman really?". Wonder about tomorrow.


Sham - Didn't mean to get you down. 

Your 180 hasn't been a failure, but watch out for reversing a few degrees to say a 175. 

I think its interesting that she started taking after you took her GF out for happy hour. You've done good and all, but remember, you aren't her GF, you are / were her husband with a real stake in the relationship and she isn't acting contrite, she's just holding on a security blanket - the one that she calls "Sham" or secretly "Stewie". 

Please remind yourself that your gut is the best cheat detector out there, however, I like to think about cheating much like a pyromaniac, where initially they start by playing with matches, then to small fires that are easily extinguished and don't put a lot of smoke off (to get into the clothes). Eventually the fires get bigger and faster and more smokey (start leaving a smell to the pyro's clothes). 

Then you start to notice the pyro also seems to smell like smoke - something burning. You don't want to believe that their clothes stink like smoke so you rationalize it away, cause you don't hardly ever notice it.

Then one day, they come home and REALLY smell like smoke, matter of fact, their clothes are smoldering a bit, maybe a char that burned a small hole in their clothes - now your "gut" is telling you that X is a pyro, but you will wait and see if this continues. Pretty soon, you see a nearby building burn down and X wasn't around when it went down. Now you wonder. You are looking into Pyromaniac treatment for X, although they still haven't come home (are probably hiding because of the fire they lit went out of control and burned the place down). 

This is how I think the gut works normally. Ask almost any "burnt" spouse on here of how long it took them to pick up signs of cheating at the exact moment it began.

Your wife traveled ALOT and mostly without you. She was more than likely setting small fires and coming home after extinguishing them and changing her clothes. Her hair not singed. It was only when she started acting funny towards you (and the sex life with the lack of availability) that got your spidey senses working. 

Most of us want to trust without any doubt that our spouse could cheat on us, that usually leads to a lack of regular boundaries (although you too agreed to the no cheating rule), relationship flags were probably going off long before your gut told you to investigate her for cheating.

Either way, my point is, not to beat yourself up for this - AT ALL. You are human, my friend, like the rest of us, and want to give everything, including your W the benefit of the doubt.

Everything you've told us points to a serial cheater (doesn't mean she had intercourse with any one but DB McGee) but she certainly wasn't espousing a virtuous marriage either.

You got cuckolded. Her regret is that you found out about it (before it happened!). How does that make you feel, really?

She cuckolded you without your permission and defied the boundaries of the marriage. People don't usually just "do this" all the sudden. There were other missteps that built her confidence in going there.

Again, we're pulling for you. I want to emphasize the same as others - you've done the best 180 I think that anyone has on this board, so don't get down. Just resist those beta impulses that come naturally when you are around her.


----------



## Shamwow

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. Just processing this morning, trying to figure out what it means to me.

Yeah, she was just looking for a warm male to not be lonely...dude's divorced, I'd left her w divorce papers and went dark. Okay. She wanted company.

Reading these texts (MUCH quicker read, now that OM is on a leash and stopped texting her, btw) has shown me more of how she's told the story to others. To her gf, in the days after I left, she was still talking about crying over OM...after about a week though she said "I think I miss Sham." Still telling others about OM though.

Also, her female work friend who was having an EA for the last year? She's apparently finding herself in hot water with her husband lately, who is now very suspicious (karma's a b*tch). Asking W for advice. W admits she's clearly not the one to ask on avoiding getting caught, but suggests she stop texting and emailing with the dude immediately.

From the day I came to aid her after her fall, I was glad to see she told everyone that I had come over to help, but she seemed to say that it was because I was the only one with keys...and that what I did was "put some food and water in front of her". No mention of me being there for hours, helping her up, looking at her wounds, trying to convince her she needed to go to the hospital repeatedly, spending 45 minutes cleaning and dressing the wound on her head, cleaning up the blood at the bottom of the stairs, bringing her pillows and a comforter for the couch, fixing the remote for the TV so she didn't have to get up (because she barely could), making sure she took her meds, asking if there was anything else she needed, and THEN placing plenty of food and water (and meds) within her reach from the couch, along with her computer, phone and chargers, and then offering to come by and assist her while she's recovering. But no, I guess I just showed up because I was the only one with a key, and throw some water and food in front of her. Sigh...whatever. I get that too. She's built me up as the uncaring husband that left her hanging, the truth would not support her story, so of course she would minimize any positives about me.

I also may have to end a very important friendship. The guy who introduced us, from the same group of her friends as her gf. The four of us vacation together. The same friend that was in town for work and came to stay for a night while my W was gone, days before Vegas. (many on this forum were skeptical of his intentions, given the timing). He had expressed shock, disbelief and empathy when I told him why I left. Thanks to the texts...bs - He knew. And a week after I left he and his W invited her on a trip with them to "forget about the Eve thing and go find her Adam with them" (not sure what the context was leading to that comment, but the meaning seems pretty clear...I think?). She said no. But it saddens me to have to wonder who your friends really are. Have to think on that one.

I know it's hard for the friends in the situation, because they invariably are made to promise they won't tell the other when something like this is discussed...plus it's a moral dilemma as to whether it's their business to intervene in another relationship. In this situation, I would say yes, it can be their business. I think in the future if a friend says "Can I talk to you about something? You have to promise you won't tell ____", I'll just say "Probably shouldn't tell me any more, because I may not be able to keep that promise. Why don't you just tell your friggin' spouse??"

I can't decide if I'm glad I read the newer texts. I think not. Good to know the truth, also good to leave some things in the dark, especially when it shouldn't matter anymore. Almost disrespecting myself by caring enough to snoop more. Oops. Live and learn.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Also, her female work friend who was having an EA for the last year? She's apparently finding herself in hot water with her husband lately, who is now very suspicious (karma's a b*tch). Asking W for advice. W admits she's clearly not the one to ask on avoiding getting caught, but suggests she stop texting and emailing with the dude immediately.


wow, she's surrounded herself with toxic friends including the friend who stabbed you in the back. That guy would no longer be welcome near me again.


If it was me, I'd send an anonymous tip to the work GF's husband. (and include instructions on how to get her texts) Start destroying that little cluster fVck of a group she's in.


----------



## Shamwow

Just took the pups out to pee. Heard my upstairs neighbors having sex with the window open. Dandy.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Well, I'm glad that she's outed herself to be the awful person she's turned into again- not glad for your pain, obviously, but glad to know that you'll be more wary dealing with her in the future.

She's toxic, bro. Toxic.


----------



## golfergirl

Sham, when I called you Florence Nightingale for coming to her aide, you poo-pooed me giving the same rendition to me that you are upset with her giving to her friends. It doesn't matter to me but you need to be honest with yourself or you're going to keep going in circles and hurting yourself even more in the process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Sham, she was nice to you, hoping that you'd play by her rules. She opened up to you the other night in hopes that you would have an epiphany of sorts and tell her that you forgive her and welcome her back with open arms. As i said before, she counted on Sham Mk I.
She saw that you would not play-she saw Sham Mk II, realized that she is not going to win, and now is DESPERATE for a warm male body to fill up a cold space. Now she's trolling for exes, found one that is going to D, and now she's working on him.


----------



## Dadof3

Almostrecovered said:


> wow, she's surrounded herself with toxic friends including the friend who stabbed you in the back. That guy would no longer be welcome near me again.
> 
> 
> If it was me, I'd send an anonymous tip to the work GF's husband. (and include instructions on how to get her texts) Start destroying that little cluster fVck of a group she's in.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Oooooohh! Yea! 

I can actually picture a txt from Sham's STBXW on that....
"Sham - my GF just got dumped by her husband for no reason... what have you been doing lately? Did u have anything to do with this? I can't believe you'd ruin her husband's life like that! You are an atrocious, vengeful human being! I don't know what I ever saw in you!".....

Serves her (both of them) damned right! EXPOSE Sham! You are DA MAN! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

Throw some SLAP-CHOP in there while u r at it!


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> Sham, when I called you Florence Nightingale for coming to her aide, you poo-pooed me giving the same rendition to me that you are upset with her giving to her friends. It doesn't matter to me but you need to be honest with yourself or you're going to keep going in circles and hurting yourself even more in the process.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I said "But I'm certainly doing nothing of the Florence Nightengale sort, *except for the day she was injured* and I helped her get situated on the couch and cleaned the wound on her head. That was Saturday. Since then I've been over once, last night."


Hardly poo-pooing or rewriting history, though sure, a little defensive. Therapist has noted that I struggle with the fact that I helped her, because every time I mention any positives about it, like our better communication now, I also seem to counter it with skepticism, and whether I "gave in" to some weakness for it. This could be what you mean by "being honest with myself".

I'm a mess at times, can't disagree.


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## krismimo

Sham just remember one important thing! Candy is Dandy but Liquor is quicker! ZAAAAAINGGGG!!!! If this is in poor taste my apologies just trying to make you chuckle.


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## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> Oooooohh! Yea!
> 
> I can actually picture a txt from Sham's STBXW on that....
> "Sham - my GF just got dumped by her husband for no reason... what have you been doing lately? Did u have anything to do with this? I can't believe you'd ruin her husband's life like that! You are an atrocious, vengeful human being! I don't know what I ever saw in you!".....
> 
> Serves her (both of them) damned right! EXPOSE Sham! You are DA MAN! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!
> 
> Throw some SLAP-CHOP in there while u r at it!


Yeah yeah, tempting. But no. For one, I don't know him or her. They're not married, though it may be common law, been like 15 years. And they have three kids together. Not my fight. I think that would actually be a vengeful move on my part, to go after her friends, regardless if they deserve it.

Sounds like her H is onto her anyway, only a matter of time before he follows her out to lunch...she'll get hers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

So How are you doing SHAM?


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## Shamwow

Eh, okay. Trying to get to the gym before I lose the motivation. Not sure what to do about tonight I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Excerpt from one of your prior replies would be appropriate to her: "If she wants to play lil' miss drunk party b*tch w no panties on tonight, or whatever, her choice. " tell her you don't play with those kinds of ho's. 

and leave it at that.

More over, Good luck! Do what feels right.


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## aug

Shamwow said:


> From the day I came to aid her after her fall, I was glad to see she told everyone that I had come over to help, but she seemed to say that it was because I was the only one with keys...and that what I did was *"put some food and water in front of her"*. No mention of me being there for hours, helping her up, looking at her wounds, trying to convince her she needed to go to the hospital repeatedly, spending 45 minutes cleaning and dressing the wound on her head, cleaning up the blood at the bottom of the stairs, bringing her pillows and a comforter for the couch, fixing the remote for the TV so she didn't have to get up (because she barely could), making sure she took her meds, asking if there was anything else she needed, and THEN placing plenty of food and water (and meds) within her reach from the couch, along with her computer, phone and chargers, and then offering to come by and assist her while she's recovering. But no, I guess I just showed up because I was the only one with a key, and throw some water and food in front of her. Sigh...whatever. I get that too. She's built me up as the uncaring husband that left her hanging, the truth would not support her story, so of course she would minimize any positives about me.


food and water are the essentials of life. one needs them to live.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Eh, okay. Trying to get to the gym before I lose the motivation. Not sure what to do about tonight I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Modify that prior post: You could take the opposite approach using the same quote and ask her if she knows anyone that fits that description and to bring that person to the game.

Then don't show up. When she txts you on your whereabouts, tell her that you don't party with ho's.

I've got a mean streak today. Dang! Somebody shoot me! 

:lol::rofl:


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## Shamwow

Well either way on the game, if she wants to watch it with me she'll have to TiVo it, because I promised my friend (who's been loyal to me and there for me through all this) that I'd give him a ride somewhere tonight, so I'd be 90 mins late. If she's up for that I may give it a shot. If not, guess she can watch it alone or have someone else over. Perhaps hs friend likes baseball? Sure he'd be chomping at the bit to have some alone time with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

And yes Dadof3, I'd say you have a bit of a mean streak today. Fun though. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

She rooting for the Phillies or Cards?


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## Shamwow

Cards. Goes way back in both of our families...

They don't deserve to win this year, that's for sure, but several older members of our families will have strokes if they lose, so I'm always in for the Cards.


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## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> She rooting for the Phillies or Cards?


Why? Just want to know who to root against?


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Cards.


Now I really hate the b!tch



(I'll overlook your delusional fandom for now)


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## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Why? Just want to know who to root against?


I'm leaving to go to the game in a few hours if that gives you an indication. (look at my location- SEPA= southeast Pennsylvania)


----------



## Mike11

Almostrecovered said:


> I'm leaving to go to the game in a few hours if that gives you an indication. (look at my location- SEPA= southeast Pennsylvania)


I wish I could join in :smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## Almostrecovered

Doc is gonna melt some Cardinal faces tonight


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## Shamwow

Enjoy the game man! Jealous you get to be there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

Look for me in the left centerfield bleachers, I'll be the guy wearing the Phillies cap


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## Shamwow

Ahhh, the gym. My best friend. Much better.


----------



## Whip Morgan

Sham - Glad you're feeling better. Don't be too hard on yourself, once you got the engine revving, you did quite well. Your last epic thread (which an caused an earthquake on the East Coast) was a story all BSs should read on how to get through the craziness. You're still in part of it, but the light at the end of the tunnel will show up eventually.
I had used some elements of your story about taking care of oneself first when going through a traumatic experience inflicted by a spouse (some other drama nonsense, but not infidelity in her marriage)

You're human like everybody else; its easy to write on an internet forum, but to be present with your W who is opening up more in one night than months before, its not so easy to stay strong. I think its a good thing you read those texts - so there is yet another guy she was involved with AND you learned who really isn't a friend.

I'm glad you realize now that he never was a true friend to you considering he knew and lied to your face. I would't call the events that you've described in the last few days as a harsh lesson learned, but a reminder (albeit sad) that moving on from this woman is the right thing to do.

Why? Because she might be opening up a little, she is still pinnin that OMW nonsense on you- fog. She is upset not over the pain she has caused, but because things aren't working out for her. Moving on from that makes a healthier, more absorbant-without-wringing out Shamwow. You are on the path to becoming much stronger than Bounty and Brawn. Even those quilted ones.


----------



## Shamwow

Whip Morgan said:


> Moving on from that makes a healthier, more absorbant-without-wringing out Shamwow. You are on the path to becoming much stronger than Bounty and Brawn. Even those quilted ones.


Props on the analogy. I sure picked a versatile user name.

Versatile! For the house, the car, the boat, the RV, it holds 20 times it's weight in liquid, look at this - it just does the work. Why would you want to work twice as hard?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Voiceofreason

Shamwow said:


> Props on the analogy. I sure picked a versatile user name.
> 
> Versatile! For the house, the car, the boat, the RV, it holds 20 times it's weight in liquid, look at this - it just does the work. Why would you want to work twice as hard?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


it cuts it chops it slices it dices it even cuts french fries four different ways!! How much would you pay? But wait! We will throw in 6 Ginsu knives for free! But wait! We will double your order for no extra charge! Now how much would you pay?


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## Shamwow

Random thought...anyone ever see the Slap Chop parody on funnyordie dot com? It's called C0ck Shot...worth 2 mins if you need a stupid laugh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> (I'll overlook your delusional fandom for now)


You think that's delusional...you do know the Twins are my team, right? What can I say, I was a kid in MN in 87 and 91...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

No more shamwow or slapchop-you need THE SLEDGE-O-MATIC!


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## F-102

According to the logic of your STBXW, Sham, by your giving information on this, you are ruining everyone's lives-the OMW, her work GF's H, and EVEN US!!!!

Nice goin', Sham!!!


----------



## Chaparral

I discount hs dude, she had already been read the riot act(divorce papers), Sham refused to see, speak, text etc. She's been thinking marriage was ancient history with no hope.

So, obviously it's time to go watch the game and get her drunk. What's a bonfire with out gasoline? Then I would say "what if I went on the road with you next week? After all " no guts no glory " has always worked for me.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> I discount hs dude, she had already been read the riot act(divorce papers), Sham refused to see, speak, text etc. She's been thinking marriage was ancient history with no hope.
> 
> So, obviously it's time to go watch the game and get her drunk. What's a bonfire with out gasoline? Then I would say "what if I went on the road with you next week? After all " no guts no glory " has always worked for me.


Please clarify. Having a hard time discerning sarcasm from tough love today. Thanks...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Please clarify. Having a hard time discerning sarcasm from tough love today. Thanks...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL...... not being sarcastic in the least, but sure expect to be flamed. Where did I put that roll of tin foil.......I mean fire extinguisher.


It's Friday, whatever you do go have a good time and be cool.....


----------



## Shamwow

Flamed as in "massive verbal barrage with no concern for what's being said"?

Hey - that sounds like fun.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Flamed as in "massive verbal barrage with no concern for what's being said"?
> 
> Hey - that sounds like fun.


I didn't say it was a necessarily a good idea but its what I would do. But then I'm not as patient as a lot of people.


----------



## Shamwow

Just spent a lovely dinner out alone, waitress flirting with me the whole time. Yes, I know waitresses are (depending on your point of view) essentially paid to flirt for tips. But it was fun anyway. She was spunky. Also told me when she was working next without me asking. Of course I won't be there the next time she works, so she has something to be spunky about the next time I do actually run into her. Ahh, the random bright moments in the sh*tabyss of everyday life.

Go Cards.


----------



## Shamwow

Well...

That was a bust. (except the Cards won...sorry AlmostRecovered)

Went to the house to watch the game, she had texted a few hours before about being all pumped for the game, etc. Would have some food, game it up.

I showed up and she was sleeping on the couch. I said "Hey - no biggie, I'll cruise and let you get some sleep." She says "No, just tired, thought I'd have my second wind. Come on in." She was actually dressed nicely, some jewelry, makeup, (which as you can imagine is different than the way she's looked the last 2 weeks since she got hurt). Asked her if she's had to take a lot of percocet today, she said no, just one in the morning. Asked if she wanted a glass of wine, she said no, maybe later. I poured one for myself.

So I sat down. She laid on the couch and didn't say a word, just stared at the TV. I asked a few questions about her day (the house had a showing today, how was work, etc). One word responses from her, laying down, staring at TV.

I was thinking what would be the most Mk II thing to do here. She clearly wasn't up for company, or at least me. So I left after the second inning. Just stood up and said "Well, I should get going. You get some sleep."

She didn't try to stop me, she just said "Sorry...just wiped out, have a good night," I said "Yep, you too." And walked out.

Good times. No text or call from her since. Whatever, yeah, she may just be tired, still recovering, etc, but either way, gotta be honest, that 20 minutes felt EXACTLY like the last couple months before I discovered what was going on and left. Complete indifference, no vibe from her at all that she wanted me to be there.

So that made that easy. Guess she's done talking about things.

Whoopity-doo.

Don't actually feel all that bothered by it. If that's what life would be like with her again, I've done the best thing I can ever do. If she was just tired and beat down from recovery/percocet, then she can let me know that later. I wasn't gonna sit there all uncomfortable for 2 1/2 hours...watch the game, root for our team, etc, while she laid there like she wanted to put a bullet in her head. That would've been the biggest p***y move I could have done. Instead I just politely removed myself from the situation as fast as possible. Wasn't angry or snippy, just said I should go, and then I did.

Anyway, go Cards.


----------



## frigginlost

You sir are my frickin hero! Absolutely perfect what you did. Your reaction to the indifference probably has her head spinning... Unless of course her actions were indeed the drugs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

And now she wants to play scrabble via iPhone 3 hrs later. Guess she has her second wind now. Yay. I think I'm watching Seinfeld instead, it's a good one.


----------



## Shamwow

frigginlost said:


> You sir are my frickin hero! Absolutely perfect what you did. Your reaction to the indifference probably has her head spinning... Unless of course her actions were indeed the drugs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks man, felt right either way.


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## Dadof3

Put 2 on the board for Sham! Go team!


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Well...
> 
> That was a bust. (except the Cards won...sorry AlmostRecovered)
> 
> Went to the house to watch the game, she had texted a few hours before about being all pumped for the game, etc. Would have some food, game it up.
> 
> I showed up and she was sleeping on the couch. I said "Hey - no biggie, I'll cruise and let you get some sleep." She says "No, just tired, thought I'd have my second wind. Come on in." She was actually dressed nicely, some jewelry, makeup, (which as you can imagine is different than the way she's looked the last 2 weeks since she got hurt). Asked her if she's had to take a lot of percocet today, she said no, just one in the morning. Asked if she wanted a glass of wine, she said no, maybe later. I poured one for myself.
> 
> So I sat down. She laid on the couch and didn't say a word, just stared at the TV. I asked a few questions about her day (the house had a showing today, how was work, etc). One word responses from her, laying down, staring at TV.
> 
> I was thinking what would be the most Mk II thing to do here. She clearly wasn't up for company, or at least me. So I left after the second inning. Just stood up and said "Well, I should get going. You get some sleep."
> 
> She didn't try to stop me, she just said "Sorry...just wiped out, have a good night," I said "Yep, you too." And walked out.
> 
> Good times. No text or call from her since. Whatever, yeah, she may just be tired, still recovering, etc, but either way, gotta be honest, that 20 minutes felt EXACTLY like the last couple months before I discovered what was going on and left. Complete indifference, no vibe from her at all that she wanted me to be there.
> 
> So that made that easy. Guess she's done talking about things.
> 
> Whoopity-doo.
> 
> Don't actually feel all that bothered by it. If that's what life would be like with her again, I've done the best thing I can ever do. If she was just tired and beat down from recovery/percocet, then she can let me know that later. I wasn't gonna sit there all uncomfortable for 2 1/2 hours...watch the game, root for our team, etc, while she laid there like she wanted to put a bullet in her head. That would've been the biggest p***y move I could have done. Instead I just politely removed myself from the situation as fast as possible. Wasn't angry or snippy, just said I should go, and then I did.
> 
> Anyway, go Cards.


Can I ask what she has done in the past two weeks that's giving you such hope? You don't even have to answer me just think it for yourself. I just don't understand why you were there yesterday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CJ2

Good for you Sham ! As hurtful as it was it always reminds us that we aren't really losing anything. It just shows us we never had anything . I have been in that position many times and the longer you have to sit there and be rejected , the more you lose hope and yourself. Hang in there


----------



## Chaparral

" showed up and she was sleeping on the couch. I said "Hey - no biggie, I'll cruise and let you get some sleep." She says "No, just tired, thought I'd have my second wind. Come on in." She was actually dressed nicely, some jewelry, makeup, (which as you can imagine is different than the way she's looked the last 2 weeks since she got hurt). Asked her if she's had to take a lot of percocet today, she said no, just one in the morning. Asked if she wanted a glass of wine, she said no, maybe later. I poured one for myself.

So I sat down. She laid on the couch and didn't say a word, just stared at the TV. I asked a few questions about her day (the house had a showing today, how was work, etc). One word responses from her, laying down, staring at TV."



Got all dressed up and the pain meds kicked in. Blew the evening. 
Could have been interesting. I think the pressure got to her and she took pain meds to relax. It worked a little too well.

Head slap. 

Congrats on Cards but wish it was the Reds


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## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> Can I ask what she has done in the past two weeks that's giving you such hope? You don't even have to answer me just think it for yourself. I just don't understand why you were there yesterday.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Basically she stopped breathing fire at me. The hope I feel is mainly for actual closure. That can't be done without an honest discussion, and that can't happen unless she feels at ease enough to talk to me for real. The way i left was a b***h slap of the kind she's never seen from me. Perhaps she thought I'd never talk to her again. 

Not trying to bang her here...not trying to get into a false R and move back into the house (at least I think I'm not?). She's shown no steps toward wanting to R besides being a little flirty and inviting me to do things, and starting to talk about her feelings. Sure I want my marriage back the way it was, but I can't make that happen. What I can do is let her open up if it seems she's trying. Compared to the last few months, I'd have to say "it seems she's trying" to open up. In the long run, to me it's worth a try. Apparently I'm hung up on the apology/closure side of things, it's pretty much the one thing she has control over anymore. I wasn't expecting a chance. I'm trying to very carefully give her that chance.

I guess that's the best I can explain it right now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

CJ2 said:


> Good for you Sham ! As hurtful as it was it always reminds us that we aren't really losing anything. It just shows us we never had anything . I have been in that position many times and the longer you have to sit there and be rejected , the more you lose hope and yourself. Hang in there


Funny thing is it didn't feel hurtful. I know I said it felt like the previous months of rejection, but in this instance it just felt like indifference or bad timing. If it it was indifference, hey - she got the same back from me. No harm no foul. If she had given any hint that she was tired or not up for the game when I was heading over, I wouldn't have gone in the first place. 

It almost felt like an opportunity to remind her of the new me. Which I did when I left...but yeah I guess I was hopeful deep down, because it could have been an important night if she had
been in the talking mood.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Confuscious say she prepped for a big date with "Sham Mk II". Confuscious say she was hoping for "Sham Mk II" to take advantage of her.
Confuscious say she got dose of her conscious that make her feel guilty about what she did to Sham.
Confuscious say she trying to draw Sham back in.

Confuscious say Sham play with fire.


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## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Confuscious say she prepped for a big date with "Sham Mk II". Confuscious say she was hoping for "Sham Mk II" to take advantage of her.
> Confuscious say she got dose of her conscious that make her feel guilty about what she did to Sham.
> Confuscious say she trying to draw Sham back in.
> 
> Confuscious say Sham play with fire.


I have to admit I wondered if she was feeling guilty too...even had a thought that maybe she was with someone earlier in the day. Who knows. She may be thinking "Why the heck is he being nice to me? I don't deserve it. He's confusing me." Good. If there's one thing I'm really taking away from all of this, is that some confusion is good for relationships in general. Once everything goes status quo, that kills spark, and what you have is comfort zone. Eff the comfort zone. That got me here (in a manner of speaking...I know her recent actions are what truly brought me here, but I have had plenty of time to think about the way I presented myself over the years, and would change many things if I could...many of which I have changed in last few months).

Kinda fun playing with fire. I've not done that in too long. One of the things I'm enjoying about this (as much as it's been a roller coaster and really painful at times) is that I'm putting myself directly into situations where I don't know the outcome. I've not been a huge risk taker in my life, sure I've taken some, but I didn't make it a habit, that's for sure. Path of least resistance is easier. Now I'm just saying what the hell, I'll walk right in there, be at my best and see what happens. Empowering, regardless of the outcome.


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## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> I have to admit I wondered if she was feeling guilty too...even had a thought that maybe she was with someone earlier in the day. Who knows. She may be thinking "Why the heck is he being nice to me? I don't deserve it. He's confusing me." Good. If there's one thing I'm really taking away from all of this, is that some confusion is good for relationships in general. Once everything goes status quo, that kills spark, and what you have is comfort zone. Eff the comfort zone. That got me here (in a manner of speaking...I know her recent actions are what truly brought me here, but I have had plenty of time to think about the way I presented myself over the years, and would change many things if I could...many of which I have changed in last few months).
> 
> Kinda fun playing with fire. I've not done that in too long. One of the things I'm enjoying about this (as much as it's been a roller coaster and really painful at times) is that I'm putting myself directly into situations where I don't know the outcome. I've not been a huge risk taker in my life, sure I've taken some, but I didn't make it a habit, that's for sure. Path of least resistance is easier. Now I'm just saying what the hell, I'll walk right in there, be at my best and see what happens. Empowering, regardless of the outcome.


Living life to its fullest. I applaud you Sham, I truly do.

Funny thing, last night I took my wife to eat at Texas Roadhouse. She was grouching at me for stuff. At first, I had been by default sucked into my "Dadof3" Mk I mode - I sulked a bit about her attitude towards me. Then I remembered that I had nothing to lose by being "Dadof3" Mk II and I told her point blank across the table - "I'm not afraid of you". Funny thing was that it helped my wife unwind from her bad attitude and begin treating me the way I deserved.

Things went a lot better after dinner. We went to the "Black and Blue" bowl - two of our local high school football teams duking it out (cross town rivalry). Both were undefeated. My wife HATES football with a passion. Either way, we paid $16 to get into the last quarter of the game (we had to walk 1/4 mile to get to football arena cause EVERYONE in town was at the game and parking backed up 1/4 mile). It was well worth the dollars, and she started to enjoy the game a little bit.

It got better from there, but as I am a gentleman, I don't kiss and tell.... 

Keep it up Sham!


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## Shamwow

Happy for ya Dad. Hey - a good night is a good night, especially with an ending you can't elaborate on. Good start to the weekend...


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## sixteen miles

I have been sitting on the sidelines for awhile, but I have been following along and reading the mail. Shamwow; you are doing great! If you remember I had predicted the end of the fog as well as her apology and eventual remorse. The apology has not yet come, not yet in a direct way at least. She is a stubborn one! She is also a complex, difficult and unique personality; perhaps deep down that is what you made her so attractive to you years ago! 

I agree 100% with Chapparal as last night was going to be it for her and she took the pills to relax and blew it. The HS dude was just a "test" to see if she still has it, not unlike one of Sham's first night after walking out when the gals at the bar paid attention to him and some buddies. It is just that the W goes way to far in her "adventures".

Shamwow; this is now eating you up, it is working at you day and night and that is not healthy. You are not enjoying the workouts anymore, the ball games, etc. etc. because the mixed signals you are receiving is becoming very tough to handle. It is playing with your mind way to much. I think you have done great, and there is nothing wrong with either seeking closure or establishing once and for all where you stand and if R is a possibility. 

She has opened up a bit, and you deserve some type of honest answers now. ONLY you Sham can know in your heart if R is a remote possibility, advice here is just that.... only advice and your mind and heart have the answers you need, follow them both. In my opinion, you know need to turn the cards face up and have a open, honest discussion with your W or it will continue to eat you alive. Tread carefully, be the new Sham, but on the same token you need answers and direction. Go get both ASAP and have that honest, frank and open discussion.


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## Dadof3

Sham: didn't mean to thread jack. The moral of my story was how easy it is to revert to Mk I as opposed to Mk II.


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## Shamwow

Busted Dad! Always glad to hear good news...and yeah it is hard not to revert, but only in your mind...like you said you thought about Mk II while at dinner and then implemented. Same with me before I left last night. I think it's okay to think pre180, just as long as you don't act it. Just how it's working for me at least...becoming more engrained, but it's not permanent yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anubis

Ut oh. Went a day without my shamwow fix... You ok sham?


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## Shamwow

Hey all – still here. No worries. I know last Sunday I wallowed like a pig in mud. Not this one. Took a break for the day to enjoy the feeling of detachment I was experiencing. Started when I left the house on Friday after that epic 20 minutes of baseball and general silence from my W.

Since then I’m trying to focus on what the hell I’m actually feeling, because it’s a much less severe feeling, not happy, but not spinning anguish either. It’s just more of a lingering feeling in my stomach, instead of falling all over myself to figure out what to do each minute of the day. So…figured a day off from posting would be a good thing (though I did post on other threads…slightly addicted to TAM I guess?).

Finished a job, cleaned the apt, did dishes & laundry, washed the car, took the dogs for a walk, etc. Made plans for a few nights this week with friends. Bought some new clothes, dig how I look in them. Always a good thing.

W and I have been emailing about bills/tax stuff, as we have to go file our taxes this week (we took an extension before she went on the road in April). We're supposed to meet on Tuesday. Lunch, go over last minute details, then go meet with the tax guy later in the afternoon.

We're lunching at an old dive bar/restaurant that we used to go to back in the day. Her idea. Not sure if that's a good or bad setting for us to be in right now, but whatever. In my mind the house is no different as far as memories are concerned. Eh, she’ll probably change her mind tomorrow before lunch anyway and just ask to meet at the tax place.

Since we both freelance, we have tons of itemized deductions, and we also write off a percentage of the house utilities because of home offices. I did her a “favor” yesterday and went through our online statements and added up totals for the separate utilities for 2010 and emailed them to her...she was going to go through old checkbooks to add these up, and I know she’s probably starting to freak out over spare time like she always does the week before travel. Anyway, no big deal. Took me 30 minutes.

She emailed back saying "This is great, wow! I'm not buying your nice guy yarn, but thanks."

I replied "Yes you are...you just don't want to. See you Tues."

No reply. But then she sends a request for a new Scrabble game on the phone shortly after...I indulged.

Other than those "business" emails and the occasional Scrabble move I have let her be since Fri. (Have to admit, kinda fun to drop words like “fantasy”, “heal, “rid”, and my personal favorite, “hoe”…she has dropped words like “suing”, “diva” and “loathe”…odd form of communication, but amusing).


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## Almostrecovered

the c-word is an acceptable scrabble word btw


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## Shamwow

She leaves Saturday for a week, back a few days, gone a week, back a few days, gone another week, then back for a few months. So who knows what this will bring to our communication. She will either party it up, talk s**t about me with all her toxic colleagues and forget about all the bad feelings she’s created for herself back home, or…she’ll struggle to concentrate on work because of the turmoil that awaits her in reality, and the fog will lift a bit more.

Honestly, I think she’s worried about working with the same group again after what’s happened, now that they all know she’s facing the consequences of her “kick-a** party girl” behavior. Funny, the other day she was talking about some of the people she works with…suddenly the only ones she has trouble working with are the guy that suspected her affair on the road (the one that “tattled”) and the supervisor he tattled to. Hmmm, not too puzzling, is it?

Either way, she’ll be making some money, so hopefully I can stop getting the sob story about how broke she is.

That said, taxes are going to destroy us both for months, being behind on quarterlies this year…on her end, on top of divorce, costs of selling the house, bills, stress of being delinquent on mortgage, etc, she must not see a real way out at the moment. One fear of mine is that she declares bankruptcy while we’re still married, in which case I actually could end up responsible for the house situation. She has assured me she wouldn’t be doing that, but the more the future looks bleak, not sure how she’ll react. And sadly, her assurances have stacked up to squat since June. And she wonders why I have an attorney…

In the old days I would tell her "it'll all be fine, we'll make it work, I promise. Got some good work coming up, we'll be on our feet in no time. Hey - let's go to the track!". Now I just listen to her lay out her woes, agree and say "Yeah, this really sucks, huh."


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## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> the c-word is an acceptable scrabble word btw


Working on it, believe me. Just need the right letters at the right time.


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## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Working on it, believe me. Just need the right letters at the right time.



I'm still waiting for the right tiles to play oxyphenbutazone


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## Unsure in Seattle

What did "not buying your nice guy yarn" mean? Like, she couldn't believe you were helping her with the bills?


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## Almostrecovered

Unsure in Seattle said:


> What did "not buying your nice guy yarn" mean? Like, she couldn't believe you were helping her with the bills?


she's fishing again- trying to lay claim that Sham is the bad guy and treats her badly- the old "poor me" crap that waywards do


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## Unsure in Seattle

Seems life is REALLY TOUGH for her, huh?


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## Shamwow

Unsure in Seattle said:


> What did "not buying your nice guy yarn" mean? Like, she couldn't believe you were helping her with the bills?


In a previous email I had mentioned she needed to transfer her health insurance autopay to a new account, I told her "the form is attached, because I'm such a nice guy." And then i sent the utility totals after that. She was just riffing on that. But yeah, she still hasn't owned up to why she's here, still taking the stance that I'm being vengeful in the way I'm handling this. She's just calming down and being more casual with it I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Sham - there's an object lesson you could teach her with a birthday cake or something like that.

Bring a cake over to her house. Ask her if she wants a piece of it. If she does, mangle the cake with your hands and your mouth (don't use a knife - its too clean). Then offer her a piece of the mangled cake. 

Give her the plate with the cake paste/crumbs and tell her the cake was representative of the marriage she destroyed with another man.


If she wants to complain about being vengeful, remind her of the cake.

P.S. I would also add to the object lesson that you point out that if she wants a cake thats not ruined, she needs to bake a new cake. Whether she shares it with you or someone else, she needs to figure it out because you aren't living in an open marriage.

P.P.S. The cake mangling would have a greater effect if you had one of your dogs mangle it instead (you know dog germs on the cake)


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## F-102

Dadof3 said:


> Sham - there's an object lesson you could teach her with a birthday cake or something like that.
> 
> Bring a cake over to her house. Ask her if she wants a piece of it. If she does, mangle the cake with your hands and your mouth (don't use a knife - its too clean). Then offer her a piece of the mangled cake.
> 
> Give her the plate with the cake paste/crumbs and tell her the cake was representative of the marriage she destroyed with another man.
> 
> 
> If she wants to complain about being vengeful, remind her of the cake.
> 
> P.S. I would also add to the object lesson that you point out that if she wants a cake thats not ruined, she needs to bake a new cake. Whether she shares it with you or someone else, she needs to figure it out because you aren't living in an open marriage.
> 
> P.P.S. The cake mangling would have a greater effect if you had one of your dogs mangle it instead (you know dog germs on the cake)


C'mon, Dad, everyone knows that dogs' mouths are cleaner than ours!

Sham, I know this sounds somewhat sadistic, but I can picture her one day in a dingy section 8 apartment, or wearing a straitjacket in a rubber room, sitting on the floor while banging her head against the wall, muttering over and over to herself: "This never had to happen. This never had to happen. This never..."


----------



## Gabriel

You're not serious with the cake thing, are you?

Look, Sham, your W is in a desparate financial situation, job or not. She is trying to grab onto branches (you) as she falls down the ravine (Divorce). She will do anything to hang on and survive.

You can't fall for what she is going to do. Instead, remember the panties, the "hacked my account, eh? Clever." And all the horrible things she said about you to other people, and to your face. 

Of course you want your old marriage back. We all do. Some can rebuild a new marriage after infidelity, for sure. But in your case, if you fall for the fantasy of that possibility, you will just be the guy who let his wife have unprotected sex with another man, and lie to your face. You will be the guy who has trouble looking at people in the eyes when they see you've let her back in. And she will be singing and smiling about how she got away with it and got you to come back. 

I see a lot of gamesmanship being played here on both sides. She is a power-play person, from the sounds of everything here. She's working it right now. And you are playing with fire, as another poster put it earlier. 

Anything not directly involving D now, is just a waste of time and emotional anguish. If your W "trickle-apologized" for the next 2-3 months, would you keep waiting to see if she would give you more? She's teasing you with it. Note that you moved your thread to "Going through Divorce or Separation", from "Coping with Infidelity". So is that still true? 

I am sorry about sounding harsh here. This is your life and you should do with it what you please. But you need to think hard about how you could live with your W and yourself if you decided to reconcile. This is a woman who has shown no remorse for what she has done, even now, even after getting caught with semen in her panties! She is only concerned with how all of this is affecting her own life, her own situation. Please remember this. 

The fact you are even remotely contemplating R floors me, but hey, this is your life, not mine. And despite the hours of investment I've put into reading your posts and thinking about your situation, it's really still, none of my business.


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## Shamwow

Totally get what you're saying Gabriel. Like I said, this weekend "may" have been a turning point for me, as I suddenly feel different...or perhaps I should say "more indifferent". I know it's pretty much a hopeless cause, and yes, even if she did want to R and do all the right things, how would I feel visiting our families/friends in the future, with them knowing I took her back after being spat upon so uncaringly for months? Probably not so good. I guess it's just hard to let go of the idea that she *could* make things right in a way that we could move forward. But it seems more ridiculous to me every day, at least lately. Been three days now that I've felt like I don't want to push her into "the talk". I go back and forth, but I guess the point is I haven't been dwelling on it. I felt a sense of urgency with her leaving this coming weekend for essentially the next month (home for a few days in between here and there). Like I should "make it happen" before then, otherwise I'm screwed. I was screwed long ago, and now she is because she *chose* to be. Whether she realizes that is not my job...it's just my wish.

She completely caused all of this mess, and she's paying the price. That certainly doesn't make me feel good though. I have trouble seeing her flail and doing next to nothing. Granted, that's what she deserves. She seems to be implying that I did not give her a chance to fix things, hence her comments about being vengeful and vindictive in my response, OMW bs, etc. (By the way, OMW has said she'd be willing to take a call from my stbxw if need be, to tell her how she actually reacted to me contacting her...as long as I give her an ample heads up...so that's an option, but I don't see a need for it as of now).

W seems to have selectively forgotten the weeks prior to Vegas...she knew I was hurting badly, because she knew I was onto her. She saw 180 (in its infancy) from me, massive self-improvement, and finally taking a stand when I told her I knew what was going on, demanded it stopped ("demanded WHAT stopped? She wasn't doing anything, right?"), offered MC, offered to listen to her side, and then when the word divorce came up (she said it first when she was cornered on lying to me about Vegas) I told her if that's what she wants I wouldn't stand in her way...that I won't accept being treated as anything other than her #1, that I won't be disrespected, and if she crossed that line with me, as much as I wouldn't want to, I WOULD divorce her.

And then yet another chance when she came back from Vegas, when I laid out divorce/attorney/leaving tonight, offered one more chance to open up and clear the air and, essentially, repent.

Writing this out makes me realize I keep trying to give her more chances...has to stop at some point. When is enough? That point may be now, as it feels right at the moment. We shall see.


P.S. She just pushed off the tax appointment to Thursday. I knew she would. She will then too...10 bucks she'll ask if I can just go in myself and fax her the pages to sign, as she's freaking out trying to get work done on her current job at home while prepping for her trips). Maybe I should just tell her that's what's going to happen, before she gets to ask and receive that favor from me. We'll see...


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## Shamwow

Scrabble play just now: Her - RAGE, me - OBEY.

Good times...


----------



## Shamwow

Dad, if I did the cake thing I think my therapist would have me committed, let alone my W would think I was completely off my rocker and laugh her a** off. Starting to worry about you man. 

Interesting analogy though...perhaps a good scene for a Ben Stiller movie?


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## Dadof3

the cake wasn't for R - it was the analogy for Shi* or get off the pot with the divorce. 

she keeps pretending that she did no wrong (or not that bad). she is reliving her childhood script of - if I do bad, I'll be forgiven and have no consequences for my behavior. 

My attempt to symbolize (in child speak so to say) was merely that. 

ok, what the hell - Sham - you are da man, however, I think all this niceness from you is confusing her with your divorce intentions.

That in turn is confusing you as she would love nothing better than to "eat her cake" without a consequence.

there - I made the connection with "cake eating".


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## Shamwow

She's confused? Good. Her turn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

I know that sounds like game playing...buy hey - I'm confused too, her feeling that way is merely a reaction to the situation. I'm just showing her I'm right in what I'm doing, I'm not a d*ck, and letting her figure out what that means to her. I guess...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

Shamwow said:


> I felt a sense of urgency with her leaving this coming weekend for essentially the next month (home for a few days in between here and there).
> 
> She completely caused all of this mess, and she's paying the price. That certainly doesn't make me feel good though. I have trouble seeing her flail and doing next to nothing. Granted, that's what she deserves.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I didn't realize the urgency bit, I do get that. You are seeking repentance and closure, which is something we all want. You might even get it, but even if you do, it's really for you to feel better, right? Not to give her another chance?
> 
> And the second paragraph above...totally understand that. Part of you will always care about her. That's natural - and you just want to wake her up, because it will be easier for you to move on with your own life, knowing she can move on with hers.


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## MrQuatto

Sham, If I recall, she was served with Papers. Are you and the atty on plan to get this either heard or settled? IF so, talk to your Lawyer on the tax issue. See where you fit into the tax issue at this point. The best scenario is for you to file for your part of the taxes, work out whatever situation you have on yours and walk away. Let her worry about her own life now, your time of concern over her stuff is over. 

Q~


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## golfergirl

I so don't get the dynamics of your relationship. I think of the split with my ex. No cheating but he phsyically abused our children and raped me twice (long story). But it makes me think of playing scrabble with him and using words like 'abuse' 'bruises' 'forceful' like it's amusing. My current H and I have jokes like he's cheap or I'm a shoe collector. Stuff like that is amusing, but playing scrabble with words like 'ho' etc. turns it into some sort of joke or PA way of saying bad things to her. If I were her I'd think I'm just a step away from having things back to normal because you're kind of joking about the terrible crap she pulled.
Why do you care if she blames you for ruining OM marriage? I got accused of turning my ex in for bankruptcy fraud. My lawyer discovered it and reported it, but my ex did it. He did the fraud. Who cares if he blames me. I know the truth, I don't have to convince him that his actions caused the getting in trouble for fraud.
I was married for 9 years and 2 kids. We had history. He betrayed me by harming our children and my trust in him. I didn't play cutesy games with him or keep each other company watching a ballgame or bringing me take out. I didn't care what his reasons, excuses or apologies were - it didn't take away what he did and that he could never be in a position of trust with me ever again. 
Either go back or cut the ties. No one will look down on you for going back. It's your life, and your history and your future. But this limbo you're keeping yourself in is just cruel to you. It's not paving the way to R and it's not healing the end of the marriage. As much as you say things changed Friday during the ballgame, you've still had a pretty full weekend of contact with your W whether through games or email or text.
And all this contact with her is weird. It's like you're trying to convince us or yourself that you want an apology or the truth or an easy divorce or easy tax filing or you'd do it for a bum on the street or you want to show her the new Sham or you're just playing with fire because you're bored - there's a million reasons why you're still chatting her up. 
Please be careful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Quatto (great username btw), She has been served, but her lawyer immediately requested an indefinite extension until receipt of a marital termination agreement. My W and I are hoping to list and agree on everything on our own, hand it to the lawyers and have them write it up officially (will save thousands each). This is based on her continued civility and the ability to communicate reasonably. If that fails, thousands each it is. So technically she has been served, the 30 day limit has been circumvented for now, the divorce hasn't been filed, no case number with the courts. Clock is no longer ticking...though if we're still married at the end of the year, we'll have to file taxes jointly next year again. So that's the extent of our clock right now.

Needless to say, we have to file jointly this year as well, as that's still for 2010.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

I must have missed something regarding the house. I thought your lawyer and you didn't want to sell. Is it for sale?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Sham, you're letting her have control over YOU by moving back the tax appointment. I would tell her: "No, you get your lying, conniving sorry ass down to the office on X-day and be ready to show EVERYTHING, and I sure as hell I WON'T do a DAMN thing to help you when you go down for tax fraud."


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## Dadof3

F-102 said:


> Sham, you're letting her have control over YOU by moving back the tax appointment. I would tell her: "No, you get your lying, conniving sorry ass down to the office on X-day and be ready to show EVERYTHING, and I sure as hell I WON'T do a DAMN thing to help you when you go down for tax fraud."


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

He has a point here. As you are jointly filing for 2010, you are BOTH on the hook for whatever penalties lie ahead from the tax man. Get her azz in there and deal.


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> I so don't get the dynamics of your relationship. I think of the split with my ex. No cheating but he phsyically abused our children and raped me twice (long story). But it makes me think of playing scrabble with him and using words like 'abuse' 'bruises' 'forceful' like it's amusing. My current H and I have jokes like he's cheap or I'm a shoe collector. Stuff like that is amusing, but playing scrabble with words like 'ho' etc. turns it into some sort of joke or PA way of saying bad things to her. If I were her I'd think I'm just a step away from having things back to normal because you're kind of joking about the terrible crap she pulled.
> Why do you care if she blames you for ruining OM marriage? I got accused of turning my ex in for bankruptcy fraud. My lawyer discovered it and reported it, but my ex did it. He did the fraud. Who cares if he blames me. I know the truth, I don't have to convince him that his actions caused the getting in trouble for fraud.
> I was married for 9 years and 2 kids. We had history. He betrayed me by harming our children and my trust in him. I didn't play cutesy games with him or keep each other company watching a ballgame or bringing me take out. I didn't care what his reasons, excuses or apologies were - it didn't take away what he did and that he could never be in a position of trust with me ever again.
> Either go back or cut the ties. No one will look down on you for going back. It's your life, and your history and your future. But this limbo you're keeping yourself in is just cruel to you. It's not paving the way to R and it's not healing the end of the marriage. As much as you say things changed Friday during the ballgame, you've still had a pretty full weekend of contact with your W whether through games or email or text.
> And all this contact with her is weird. It's like you're trying to convince us or yourself that you want an apology or the truth or an easy divorce or easy tax filing or you'd do it for a bum on the street or you want to show her the new Sham or you're just playing with fire because you're bored - there's a million reasons why you're still chatting her up.
> Please be careful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't be here if she hadn't gotten hurt and cooled off. I would still be dark. So many stories of what's possible, I could either stay dark and be done with everything (except by attorney) or I could talk with her and maybe end on more amicable terms.

So incredibly sorry to hear about what your husband did to you and your family...the pain I feel is definitely of a "different type" right now, if that helps explain in any way why I'm being more casual with her. She has hurt me immensely...I left her. Please let me take this on my own time. My inner struggle and what I post here is what it is. What she sees is her H giving her what she deserves...doesn't recognize it. New to me too. Believe me, I ignored stuff like the friggin scrabble requests for days before finally putting down a word, and that was because I had seen her for biz earlier and she was very respectful. Rewarding good behavior I guess. I don't want this to be scathing and messy. I just want to do what I have to do, and her to deal with that. If we can do it with an occasional smile I don't think that's a bad thing. The hammer has still been dropped. That hasn't changed. My fantasies are just that, and are not being relayed to her. Reality is what we see, but I refuse to justify and uphold the "bad guy" image she wants to stick me with. I'll be damned first. If I'm damned, then so be it. But I'm not. Let her open her eyes if it's possible.

I know it may sound strange...it's just that I left so abruptly, and while I had given her many chances to fix things before it went PA, I didn't give her a chance to explain herself when I left. She went in the bathroom, I put papers on the table and walked out the back door. Went dark for weeks. Clearly the effect was felt. Can't explain why I want to give her that chance to end softer, I just do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> He has a point here. As you are jointly filing for 2010, you are BOTH on the hook for whatever penalties lie ahead from the tax man. Get her azz in there and deal.


Deadline for filing is Oct 15th. Doesn't matter to me if it's Tues or Thurs or Sat. I can file without her, just need a signature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> I wouldn't be here if she hadn't gotten hurt and cooled off. I would still be dark. So many stories of what's possible, I could either stay dark and be done with everything (except by attorney) or I could talk with her and maybe end on more amicable terms.
> 
> So incredibly sorry to hear about what your husband did to you and your family...the pain I feel is definitely of a "different type" right now, if that helps explain in any way why I'm being more casual with her. She has hurt me immensely...I left her. Please let me take this on my own time. My inner struggle and what I post here is what it is. What she sees is her H giving her what she deserves...doesn't recognize it. New to me too. Believe me, I ignored stuff like the friggin scrabble requests for days before finally putting down a word, and that was because I had seen her for biz earlier and she was very respectful. Rewarding good behavior I guess. I don't want this to be scathing and messy. I just want to do what I have to do, and her to deal with that. If we can do it with an occasional smile I don't think that's a bad thing. The hammer has still been dropped. That hasn't changed. My fantasies are just that, and are not being relayed to her. Reality is what we see, but I refuse to justify and uphold the "bad guy" image she wants to stick me with. I'll be damned first. If I'm damned, then so be it. But I'm not. Let her open her eyes if it's possible.
> 
> I know it may sound strange...it's just that I left so abruptly, and while I had given her many chances to fix things before it went PA, I didn't give her a chance to explain herself when I left. She went in the bathroom, I put papers on the table and walked out the back door. Went dark for weeks. Clearly the effect was felt. Can't explain why I want to give her that chance to end softer, I just do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for answering so decently, thoughtfully and respectfully. It does show you are thinking and not just reacting. If she loses you, she lost a good man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> Thank you for answering so decently, thoughtfully and respectfully. It does show you are thinking and not just reacting. If she loses you, she lost a good man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Indeed. You are a very respectful ba**buster as well (and have been supportive throughout all of this). Much appreciated golfergirl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Indeed. You are a very respectful ba**buster as well (and have been supportive throughout all of this). Much appreciated golfergirl.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You made me LOL! Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> I must have missed something regarding the house. I thought your lawyer and you didn't want to sell. Is it for sale?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is on the market. For an obscenely low price, which is the current market value. Beautiful 2-story 85-yr old original corner home, weaker neighborhood these days, sh***y market. I spoke with my attorney before agreeing to and signing the listing agreement. Turns out for a short sale or deed in lieu of foreclosure (our only options besides losing 100k or W going through foreslosure - which would prob result in her bankruptcy and the transfer of the mortgage to her husband....ME) the house has to be on the market for 90 days, and hardship has to be proven before the bank will consider either option. W is not able to pay the mortgage and is going through a divorce. Hardship. After the 90 days of listing with no sale, options are on the table.

Attorney assured me my position will be the same regardless. Not scot free, but relatively on the outside. So I signed and it's on the market. It's had one showing in 3 weeks. Winter where we are is not a good time to sell a home, so odds are it will be a long time before a short sale is completed.


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## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> Thank you for answering so decently, thoughtfully and respectfully. It does show you are thinking and not just reacting. If she loses you, she lost a good man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


P.S. I suck at golf. I shot a 72 the other day...on nine holes. Still respect me?


----------



## Shaggy

Sham, expect that she and her attitude will backslide once she is back on the road with her gang of sleaze. They will support her past behavior andtrah talk you. So be prepared for her to backslide in her cold and nasty attitude toward you.

Or she might see them for the digusting selfish cheats they are an feel reppelled, but it's doubtful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

Just read what recently happened. And I must say that I have to agree with GOLFER GIRL on this one. It is too many games going on here, you may or may not get closure until after your divorce then what? I get a sense that your not trying to Recon but also my friend, this is if i may say so is getting out of hand now you know what I told you about me I'm not bitter with my ex but I would not be playing scrabble with him. Please ask yourself WHY? Why am I playing scrabble with this girl who I just found out messed around on me technically TWICE. I would have thought that after you found out she was doing the same thing with an old HS flame that you were going to seriously start phasing her out. She was crying her eyes out but sending nude pictures to him. And your playing scrabbles going to watch a game with her, etc etc. Make no mistake she is playing you sham and that is the truth.


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## krismimo

I retract some things that I just said seeing what your response was to golfer girl, And I hope you figure this out for better or for worse.


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> P.S. I suck at golf. I shot a 72 the other day...on nine holes. Still respect me?


I do. Haven't golfed in a few months due to tennis elbow surgery (no I don't play tennis). So we'll see my scores next season (live in soon to be snow country). I might have to change name to mini- golfer-girl if I don't heal 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

Did anyone ever let her know HS buddy was showing her pictures around?

I, for one, don't think the Scrabble game is a bad idea at all. I certainly wouldn't be using words like hoe. If you can make her more comfortable and trusting around you your more likely to get a real dialogue going. I don't think there is little doubt that she feels hurt by you and is wary of opening up to you. 

Also, the way things have gone, I doubt she thinks you would consider ever coming home no matter what she does. 

Did she ever comment on you leaving so early the night of the ball game when she didn't seem to be able to get off the couch. I have to admit that caught me completely by surprise. I just new she had a plan for the evening and somehow it got derailed. Why would she get dressed up to lie on the couch? Completely puzzled with that move.


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## Chaparral

One more question. Do you think she may not have really wanted children?


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## Shamwow

She knows about hs dude showing her pics. I got that from her texts w him. She was not happy.

And hey, I put "hoe", not "ho". It's a garden tool. It's all subjective I guess. You play with what you get. She thought it was amusing.

Guessing she wouldn't expect me to come home either, though from her texts it appears she expected me to after the first few days. Then a few weeks went by and I had an apt to move things to.

Nothing about the other night from her, besides she's sorry she was so tired.

She wanted to adopt, not actually give birth. I respected that, as hell, I wouldn't want to give birth. She didn't think she was a good "vessel", due to her epilepsy meds, and plenty of time partying more than the average child-bearing woman. But she always kept it on the table as a vague possibility, and she knew I'd prefer a child of our own. We knew we still had a few years to make that decision. What she doesn't know is that while she was on her 10-wk trip I had done a lot of thought about telling her when she came back that I'd consider having a vasectomy and adopting. Seriously. The topic had been raised in the weeks prior to that trip. But then it all changed.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

LOL "And hey, I put "hoe", not "ho". It's a garden tool. It's all subjective I guess. You play with what you get. She thought it was amusing." 

That's a finer point that I did not catch.


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## golfergirl

chapparal said:


> LOL "And hey, I put "hoe", not "ho". It's a garden tool. It's all subjective I guess. You play with what you get. She thought it was amusing."
> 
> That's a finer point that I did not catch.


Would ho count in scrabble? Haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> I, for one, don't think the Scrabble game is a bad idea at all. I certainly wouldn't be using words like hoe. If you can make her more comfortable and trusting around you your more likely to get a real dialogue going. I don't think there is little doubt that she feels hurt by you and is wary of opening up to you.


I agree with your point. I also think that being a little offensive makes her more "comfortable and trusting" than being boring and polite. If nothing else I know her...


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## Chaparral

golfergirl said:


> Would ho count in scrabble? Haha
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you're using Urban Dictionary both words count. 

Ho ho ho is what Santa says when he sees your wife, your sister and your momma in the same room. According to UD. 

Hoe also equals ho also according to UD.

Unless you go to the second page. lol


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## Shamwow

Just talked to W, she was complaining that the bank is calling her old workplace nonstop (they still have them on file from like 6 years ago...). Sorry. Don't know what to tell ya. Call em I guess?

Sucks for her that she's gonna go through all the credit mess we both went through when we were younger. We were both well out of the woods, now she's having to walk right back in for 7-10 years. Bad decisions suck...

She made them knowing full well what the consequences were.


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## Shamwow

She said there has been no God in her life for a long time now, so I should smile at that.

I said "Wish you had been real with me when the chips were down. We wouldn't be here, we'd be in Cozumel 'working it out'. Not your fault for getting swept up in a bs fantasy, just how you handled it and what you chose to do. Wanted to fix this. Why didn't you?". She said "I couldn't fix anything, was too confused...sorry."

Pause...subject change, and we're out.

Probably wasn't worth saying, but it was said.

Hope I didn't open up the gates of hell by saying something so candid.


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## Unsure in Seattle

At least she's "sorry."


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## Shamwow

Unsure in Seattle said:


> At least she's "sorry."


Yeah, the heartfelt warmth of that statement just fills me up with comfort. 

That may be it folks, she said "the word". She said it in passing, and without elaboration. That may be all she's ever able to do, methinks. Man I hope she gets some counseling eventually.


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## Dadof3

Atta boy Sham! Atta boy!

Now THATS ALPHA!


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## Mike11

Dadof3 said:


> Atta boy Sham! Atta boy!
> 
> Now THATS ALPHA!


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Shamwow

Think so? I'm not so convinced. Just came out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Candidness is a good thing. 

Its interesting that you mentioned the gates-of-hell. You both have been living inside. Now you've set down another marker (the candid conversation) that will help you both out of it.

Sounds like she is doing a lot of self-reflection. If she wants to find God again, tell her she only need to turn around.


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## Dadof3

Dadof3 said:


> Candidness is a good thing.
> 
> Its interesting that you mentioned the gates-of-hell. You both have been living inside. Now you've set down another marker (the candid conversation) that will help you both out of it.
> 
> Sounds like she is doing a lot of self-reflection. If she wants to find God again, tell her she only need to turn around.


Sham - In my "manning up" journey, I found that the most manly thing to do when dealing with my wife is to talk not only from logic, but to use my heart in doing so. No holding back, no worries about the repercussions of what I think and feel. It was probably one of the most prominent changes to my relationship with my wife. 

I no longer had to make my communications about someone else. They could be about me and my boundaries as a person. Its hard to not respect a person who is real and genuine in their dealings with others. 

Was this not real and genuine for you? If it was, it was the right thing to do!


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## Zzyzx

You got the "sorry" word that quickly, sham... I'm impressed.

In my case, it was about 3 1/2 years after I moved out before my ex finally had *that* conversation with me. It felt sincere, but of course it was way too late. I'd waited years for her to say something along those lines, I had all the snappy, snarky replies worked out, but instead I remained silent, let her talk it out, then said only "thank you". And that door was closed for all time.


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## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> If she wants to find God again, tell her she only need to turn around.


This is actually quite profound...Can I use this in the future (without copyright infringement Dad)?


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## Dadof3

no copyright infringement here (not sure if sarcasm is being detected)


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> She said there has been no God in her life for a long time now, so I should smile at that.
> 
> I said "Wish you had been real with me when the chips were down. We wouldn't be here, we'd be in Cozumel 'working it out'. Not your fault for getting swept up in a bs fantasy, just how you handled it and what you chose to do. Wanted to fix this. Why didn't you?". She said "I couldn't fix anything, was too confused...sorry."
> 
> Pause...subject change, and we're out.
> 
> Probably wasn't worth saying, but it was said.
> 
> Hope I didn't open up the gates of hell by saying something so candid.



It's not weak to admit you loved her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> It's not weak to admit you loved her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Aw, come on golfergirl...I was looking to you for the smackdown.  Thanks though.

Strange, today just feels so casual to me. Like I can say whatever I want and it doesn't matter. Like I'm not afraid of anything she'd say in response, even it was "Are you crazy?! I hate you now! Ha ha ha, you actually think I care about your feelings?". I wouldn't care. At least not right now.

Have to see how the day plays out, I'll keep my mouth shut in the meantime, but feel like digging in the trowel a bit, so to speak, and see if I can crack her shell a bit more.

Or maybe I just have too much spare time today...all I have is the gym this afternoon and then the ballgame with some buddies tonight.

Not sure what the point would be, but like I said, right now I *really don't care* if there's a point. I've spent months doing everything for a reason, second and triple guessing myself in every action I make or word that I speak. Suddenly I just don't give a crap what it means if I say this or that, especially to her. Quite liberating. I fired a truth missile across her bow this morning and she didn't snap at me or ignore it. Or ask me "why the hell I would bring that up since we're getting divorced anyway", per usual, etc. Maybe her feelings are ripe for the picking?

Or maybe I'm temporarily insane and will think about this entirely differently tomorrow.


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## Sod

Shamwow said:


> Not sure what the point would be, but like I said, right now I *really don't care* if there's a point. I've spent months doing everything for a reason, second and triple guessing myself in every action I make or word that I speak. Suddenly I just don't give a crap what it means if I say this or that, especially to her. Quite liberating.
> Or maybe I'm temporarily insane and will think about this entirely differently tomorrow.


You most definitely are not insane, thats fantastic that you got to this point. I agree that getting to the point of not worrying about reactions does wonders for the mind and soul. Nicely done!


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## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Aw, come on golfergirl...I was looking to you for the smackdown.  Thanks though.
> 
> Only when I misunderstand! Or you deserve it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

WOW she said Sorry,  WOW! that was quicker than I thought. So I'm curious what does that mean for you? You got your answer? Your still moving foward? Or you stil want to pick her brain some more? As for you feeling like you don't give a crap, I could be wrong but this feeling will happen off and on, and the more you start to move on (In your own way of course) The more you will start to feel indifferent in dealing with her, not really callous just seperating yourself. Your doing just fine these things are not easy I just can't believe she said sorry without her adding her two scents to it.


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## F-102

Perhaps, Sham-she finally realized that SHE f-ed up, and it took the spectre of future financial dire straits to do it.

It's almost like Al Capone: years of getting off thru loopholes, no real evidence against him and inability to get a conviction...

...and it took something financial-tax evasion, to finally put him away.


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## SadSamIAm

I am guessing she sent pictures of her p.....sy to a bunch of guys and hasn't had any takers. She is thinking she might have to settle for Sham.

Sham .... don't fall for this. She has shown who she is and what she is capable of. Move on.


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## piqued

Well, if you are probing only for yourself, and not for your relationship or a potential fantasy of R then have at it.

However, as has been mentioned before, she is most forthcoming, contrite, and "sorry" when her back is against the wall. She's feeling the heat financially and her reflex is to make nice with Sham (and put up with his straightforwardness if she has to) because you are perceived as a vehicle to get her out of this mess. These are the exact wrong reasons to let her "connect" with you on any level of intimacy whatsoever.

Once her predicament is solved she is in the same exact place...her demons won't be resolved.

If you want truth from her, real truth, then it won't come until she has worked out, or is working through the issues she has with herself (that allowed her to spread her legs for another in the first place). Right now anything she says to you might contain some truth, but is also surely contains some wood on which she can prop herself up.


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## krismimo

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## NotLikeYou

I'd like to be the first one to say, 

"Welcome back, Sham 1.0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Being Alpha was a lot of fun but now, it's time to be a friend again!

How 'bout a game of cellphone Scrabble? Chicks totally dig guys that they can flirt with and do things like cellphone Scrabble. She may be having financial problems, but, hey, it takes two to make a team, and Shamwow, she KNOWS you will be there with/for her when she goes to see the accountant. Or when she doesn't go see the accountant and re-schedules. And when she blows it off. It's whatever, because she can count on you, big guy!

Besides, she said "sorry!" Way cool. It has put you in a euphoric state of bliss! You feel like you can tell her anything! Even though you were worried about "opening the gates of hell," only a little while ago.

If that "sorry" had actually been attached to an apology for her actions, you might have passed out from the pleasure.

She falls down and hurts her head, she can count on YOU! She wants to see the dogs for a few hours- no, wait, skip the dogs, it's cool either way, she knows she can count on YOU! Watching a game at her place? For only the first 20 minutes? You're THERE!

Remember the sleepless nights? The agony of discovery? The demands that she ignored? Remember the panties full of semen? 

The person who put you through all this is playing Scrabble with you. Alpha behavior does not consist of playing games with the wife who cheated on you. In fact, Alpha behavior does not involve playing Scrabble with any woman, period.

You've put in a lot of effort, to be backsliding like this. That 2.0 upgrade needs a security patch, pronto.


----------



## Shamwow

Wow, thanks for the dressing down, NLY. Appreciate the insight, and trying to keep me from sliding, seriously...but for the moment I'd like to respectfully disagree with about 70% of that. Right now, gotta game to watch.


----------



## joe kidd

NotLikeYou said:


> I'd like to be the first one to say,
> 
> "Welcome back, Sham 1.0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> 
> Being Alpha was a lot of fun but now, it's time to be a friend again!
> 
> How 'bout a game of cellphone Scrabble? Chicks totally dig guys that they can flirt with and do things like cellphone Scrabble. She may be having financial problems, but, hey, it takes two to make a team, and Shamwow, she KNOWS you will be there with/for her when she goes to see the accountant. Or when she doesn't go see the accountant and re-schedules. And when she blows it off. It's whatever, because she can count on you, big guy!
> 
> Besides, she said "sorry!" Way cool. It has put you in a euphoric state of bliss! You feel like you can tell her anything! Even though you were worried about "opening the gates of hell," only a little while ago.
> 
> If that "sorry" had actually been attached to an apology for her actions, you might have passed out from the pleasure.
> 
> She falls down and hurts her head, she can count on YOU! She wants to see the dogs for a few hours- no, wait, skip the dogs, it's cool either way, she knows she can count on YOU! Watching a game at her place? For only the first 20 minutes? You're THERE!
> 
> Remember the sleepless nights? The agony of discovery? The demands that she ignored? Remember the panties full of semen?
> 
> The person who put you through all this is playing Scrabble with you. Alpha behavior does not consist of playing games with the wife who cheated on you. In fact, Alpha behavior does not involve playing Scrabble with any woman, period.
> 
> You've put in a lot of effort, to be backsliding like this. That 2.0 upgrade needs a security patch, pronto.


Wow. Are you this guy?


----------



## Blue Moon

NotLikeYou said:


> I'd like to be the first one to say,
> 
> "Welcome back, Sham 1.0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> 
> Being Alpha was a lot of fun but now, it's time to be a friend again!
> 
> How 'bout a game of cellphone Scrabble? Chicks totally dig guys that they can flirt with and do things like cellphone Scrabble. She may be having financial problems, but, hey, it takes two to make a team, and Shamwow, she KNOWS you will be there with/for her when she goes to see the accountant. Or when she doesn't go see the accountant and re-schedules. And when she blows it off. It's whatever, because she can count on you, big guy!
> 
> Besides, she said "sorry!" Way cool. It has put you in a euphoric state of bliss! You feel like you can tell her anything! Even though you were worried about "opening the gates of hell," only a little while ago.
> 
> If that "sorry" had actually been attached to an apology for her actions, you might have passed out from the pleasure.
> 
> She falls down and hurts her head, she can count on YOU! She wants to see the dogs for a few hours- no, wait, skip the dogs, it's cool either way, she knows she can count on YOU! Watching a game at her place? For only the first 20 minutes? You're THERE!
> 
> Remember the sleepless nights? The agony of discovery? The demands that she ignored? Remember the panties full of semen?
> 
> The person who put you through all this is playing Scrabble with you. Alpha behavior does not consist of playing games with the wife who cheated on you. In fact, Alpha behavior does not involve playing Scrabble with any woman, period.
> 
> You've put in a lot of effort, to be backsliding like this. That 2.0 upgrade needs a security patch, pronto.


This is spot on. It's easy to gloss over things as time passes and still offer words of encouragement, but when all of the facts are laid out this plainly it really does look ridiculous. It reads like a guy who is just honored to be in his cheating wife's presence, no matter the cost. If a divorce is really what Sham wants in his heart, I think the pleasentries and in between stuff serves no purpose, it should be business from here on out. If he wants to be friends or get back together, that's his pregogative too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

Blue Moon said:


> This is spot on. It's easy to gloss over things as time passes and still offer words of encouragement, but when all of the facts are laid out this plainly it really does look ridiculous. It reads like a guy who is just honored to be in his cheating wife's presence, no matter the cost. If a divorce is really what Sham wants in his heart, I think the pleasentries and in between stuff serves no purpose, it should be business from here on out. If he wants to be friends or get back together, that's his pregogative too.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Completely agree :iagree:

View my post from a few days ago - pretty much says all of this awhile back.


----------



## Shamwow

It is spot on if it is actually as written above. Otherwise it's cherry picking negatives. Please go back and read my thread as to why I want things to be amicable right now. People want me to treat her like s**t indefinitely. She got the 2x4 to the head. It worked. If I feel like the situation calls for less harshness, why is that wrong? Everyone is so concerned (here and friends and family) that me talking about showing her any mercy is a sign that I want to move back in, gloss over everything and forget everything. Could this happen? Sure, I understand the concern. Just give me a little credit here. I may take a step backward now and again, but it's usually followed by 2 steps forward. At least I think so...and believe me, I think about these thins all the time.

Why am I elated because I had a few good days? Apologies for the defensive nature of this post, guess I am tired of posting something hat makes me feel good and being told I've lost everything I've gained. I know everyone's looking out for me here, I do, but I also feel that sometimes people are looking out for my W's continued misery more. Does that make sense?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blue Moon

Shamwow said:


> It is spot on if it is actually as written above. Otherwise it's cherry picking negatives. Please go back and read my thread as to why I want things to be amicable right now. People want me to treat her like s**t indefinitely. She got the 2x4 to the head. It worked. If I feel like the situation calls for less harshness, why is that wrong? Everyone is so concerned (here and friends and family) that me talking about showing her any mercy is a sign that I want to move back in, gloss over everything and forget everything. Could this happen? Sure, I understand the concern. Just give me a little credit here. I may take a step backward now and again, but it's usually followed by 2 steps forward. At least I think so...and believe me, I think about these thins all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't disagree. There's absolutely no need to treat her like sh*t, but there's a difference between being civil and being friendly. Discussing terms of taxes/divorce over a cup of coffee is being civil. Setting up dates chill on the couch and watch the game is friendly.

There's nothing "wrong" with being friendly, it just sends mixed signals both in what you want and what you've said to her. This isn't just to save face or look like "the man" to her, it's a matter of self integrity and sticking up for yourself.

I've noticed in both threads a couple instances where you contemplated cutting someone off as a friend because you felt they were less than loyal. If you're interested in protecting your self interests, being "friendly" only means that you don't really mean that the things you said were deal breakers, were indeed deal breakers. Even if the divorce goes through, you're still rewarding her for treating you badly.

If reconciliation is what you want, I just think that needs to be expressed so you two can talk through things and find common ground. If divorce is what you want, it's nothing more than a piece of paper if you're not enforcing the boundaries you said you believe in. So I guess to sum it up, my opinion is that a hard stance has to be taken one way or the other if you truly want to either gain your independence or a wife out of this thing.

And I'm NOT suggesting that any of this is easy. I haven't been through it and can't imagine the roller coaster. I just think she made her decision, so she should either live with it or earn her way back. And if she's going to earn her way back don't cheat for her 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

You are doing great, Sham. I think you are right about some of us wanting your wife to suffer, but I think most, if not all, want you to succeed on your own terms. 

Keep your chin up. Although we seem to be hard on you, you still have our respect.


----------



## Blue Moon

And no need for apologies. This is a rough time for you so vent all you want. I don't think you've lost everything you gained at all. Your feelings are warranted so you should own and embrace them. If you feel good about something that happened that's great. You can't control that and don't have to. It's only the actions that send mixed signals and leave you in limbo or a potential circle of confusion and disappointment that I find dangerous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd

Hey Sham, my feelings are whatever gets you though the day. It's exhausting to be a D*ck 24/7. As you have stated she can put up one hell of a wall. Being civil is not a sin and if it makes the divorce process easier for you then so be it.


----------



## Shamwow

First of all - My thought is that anyone faced with an actual dealbreaker situation will ALWAYS doubt their resolve to truly stick to it once put into action. Whether or not they show anyone that doubt, that's another story. I have been harder than I've ever been, and yes, I guess I've done some backsliding...not like I didn't know it/fear it though, I've posted about it for weeks. Rationalizing, hoping for the best. I was wrong.

I am shamed.

You were all right.

My buddy was on the way over for the game (the other had to cancel). He texted to say he was on his way over (this if my W's gf's H). Sweet. Then my W texts me and says "Cheeseburgers and a movie? Or are you busy." I said, "Busy, ____'s coming over to watch the game. If you're up after 10, gimme a call I should be up. [then, kidding, I said] Or good luck, you can try to convince _____ to go to your place. LOL" She said she'd be sleeping. 

Then she calls gf's H and convinces him to come over to the house. Seriously. He figures it was actually my idea, and apparently she thought I was serious. She texts me "_____'s coming here now, come on over!". I say "No he's not." She says "Is okay? Yeah he really is. No good?". I said "Does it matter?". Then she says "gf is coming over too." Our "traditional" couples night group. FML.

Everything in my gut said to stay home. Everything.

Line up the paddles.

I went. Sham 1.0 back in full effect. Did exactly what I knew I shouldn't. Sorry all, it was a horrible night. (NYL, I still want to punch you in the proverbial neck for knocking the wind out of me earlier tonight, but you were right.)

Horrible. 

W was on the phone for 45 mins for work when we got there. I hung out with the couple. We watched the game. Finally W gets off the phone.

She's drunk. Bunch of small talk. Then W starts talking **** about me not bringing cheeseburgers. "Joking", of course. I said whatever, I had food at my place for me and ______. More casual bs small talk for a while. I did NOT want to be there, everything in me saying get the f*** OUT. I realize I'm probably not hiding my emotions very well anymore. W casually comments to gf on a few things she loved in the house, a painting that I took (that I paid $1000 for), the TV and the speakers (which she claimed she didn't give a s*** about before), and the dogs (which she told me to take). I said "However you want to remember it." She reiterates that she's "kidding". Then she starts talking to "me" (though gf and H are 5 feet away) about taxes and splitting up assets, and dropping how much she'll be losing because of the house. I ignore it. She said we'll figure it all out on Thursday and Friday. I said "No we won't, you'll be crazy with work those days, I'll take care of it. Forget it, off your plate." She says "No, I'll have plenty of time."

All the time her phone is lighting up with texts. I knew it was hs douche (I didn't really, but I had a feeling)...not that I should care, but I felt the need to make it less fun for her, as she was probably telling him how she wanted to be bent over right now, but the house was full of boring people (whom SHE forcefully invited).

Bling, bling, bling, texts. I hate that f***ing sound. I finally said "Say hi for me". She said, "what, to ____?" (hs douche). I said "Yeah, how's his divorce going?". "Fine, it's done, but now she's coming back for more money after the fact." I said "Well he's a smart guy, I'm sure he'll figure it out. Give him my lawyer's number." 

Then I realize we're that couple, bickering in front of guests. The whole time she keeps saying "totally kidding" but I know she's actually doing her best to make me look like an a-hole. She left the room and I said to the couple "I shouldn't be here. Gonna get going now." W comes back in room. They got up to leave too. I hugged each of them and said great to see them, take care. I said not one word to W as I walked out, nor she to me.

After I left I texted gf's H and said "My gut told me to stay home. My gut hasn't failed me in months. My fault. Great to see you guys though..."

Dude calls me immediately and said yeah, that seemed a little off. I said, whatever, I allowed her to hijack my evening and you two didn't deserve to have to see that. Let's just say *never again* on that front, okay?" We talked for a while. He totally agreed and felt horrible that he went over there instead of calling me first. I said "Totally my bad, I was joking with her and she took it seriously and took over the evening. No worries."

Got home, petted the pups, had a brief cry (first time in a week), then texted stbxw "Hey - that was really fun! We should do that more often."

She came back with "Liar. You should've stayed. You're missing Golden Girls."


Let me categorically state...wait for it...wait for it...F**K THIS.

I was wrong. Again. AGAIN. I knew better, and I let myself lose this round. She is stronger and healthier now, and as I had predicted, she very well may revert right back to the horrible person I lived with for the few months before I left. It appears she did.

I will text her tomorrow and tell her "I'll file the taxes on Thursday and email you signature pages. Have a nice trip."

The b***h is back.

I...am...a...jackass...yet...again...


*&^#$%*&%^[email protected]#$*&(^#%$*(&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just TRY to talk me out of Xanax and vodka martinis tonight.

P.S. W's gained 15 pounds in the last month. Good.


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## Shamwow

F**K scrabble.


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## krismimo

I will never tell you that I told you so you cared for her and as long as you realize what was going on in front of you before it was too late. Now please my dear go back to being dark, no more scrabble games, no more responding to her messages unless it is business related and she is not trying to bait you. And if your going to have a ****tail choose one or the other not both bad Sham!


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## Shamwow

Sorry, going for both on the c0cktail. Thanks for the advice though...

No problem on the dark. I am so angry again. Mostly with myself...but either way, been weeks since I felt it. I really need to reread my threads more often.


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## krismimo

It's ok shame and like the most overused quote says rome was not built in a day.


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## Shaggy

Sham,

The bright side is you learnt this now before she went back on the road with cheating skank gang and got really into her old ways.

Time to not go dark, but to blow her off except she you want something. Then get in get out, except bring her all the pizza and donuts she wants, maybe you can add another 15lbs onto her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AniversaryFight

shamwow said:


> first of all - my thought is that anyone faced with an actual dealbreaker situation will always doubt their resolve to truly stick to it once put into action. Whether or not they show anyone that doubt, that's another story. I have been harder than i've ever been, and yes, i guess i've done some backsliding...not like i didn't know it/fear it though, i've posted about it for weeks. Rationalizing, hoping for the best. I was wrong.
> 
> I am shamed.
> 
> You were all right.
> 
> My buddy was on the way over for the game (the other had to cancel). He texted to say he was on his way over (this if my w's gf's h). Sweet. Then my w texts me and says "cheeseburgers and a movie? Or are you busy." i said, "busy, ____'s coming over to watch the game. If you're up after 10, gimme a call i should be up. [then, kidding, i said] or good luck, you can try to convince _____ to go to your place. Lol" she said she'd be sleeping.
> 
> Then she calls gf's h and convinces him to come over to the house. Seriously. He figures it was actually my idea, and apparently she thought i was serious. She texts me "_____'s coming here now, come on over!". I say "no he's not." she says "is okay? Yeah he really is. No good?". I said "does it matter?". Then she says "gf is coming over too." our "traditional" couples night group. Fml.
> 
> Everything in my gut said to stay home. Everything.
> 
> Line up the paddles.
> 
> I went. Sham 1.0 back in full effect. Did exactly what i knew i shouldn't. Sorry all, it was a horrible night. (nyl, i still want to punch you in the proverbial neck for knocking the wind out of me earlier tonight, but you were right.)
> 
> horrible.
> 
> W was on the phone for 45 mins for work when we got there. I hung out with the couple. We watched the game. Finally w gets off the phone.
> 
> She's drunk. Bunch of small talk. Then w starts talking **** about me not bringing cheeseburgers. "joking", of course. I said whatever, i had food at my place for me and ______. More casual bs small talk for a while. I did not want to be there, everything in me saying get the f*** out. I realize i'm probably not hiding my emotions very well anymore. W casually comments to gf on a few things she loved in the house, a painting that i took (that i paid $1000 for), the tv and the speakers (which she claimed she didn't give a s*** about before), and the dogs (which she told me to take). I said "however you want to remember it." she reiterates that she's "kidding". Then she starts talking to "me" (though gf and h are 5 feet away) about taxes and splitting up assets, and dropping how much she'll be losing because of the house. I ignore it. She said we'll figure it all out on thursday and friday. I said "no we won't, you'll be crazy with work those days, i'll take care of it. Forget it, off your plate." she says "no, i'll have plenty of time."
> 
> all the time her phone is lighting up with texts. I knew it was hs douche (i didn't really, but i had a feeling)...not that i should care, but i felt the need to make it less fun for her, as she was probably telling him how she wanted to be bent over right now, but the house was full of boring people (whom she forcefully invited).
> 
> Bling, bling, bling, texts. I hate that f***ing sound. I finally said "say hi for me". She said, "what, to ____?" (hs douche). I said "yeah, how's his divorce going?". "fine, it's done, but now she's coming back for more money after the fact." i said "well he's a smart guy, i'm sure he'll figure it out. Give him my lawyer's number."
> 
> then i realize we're that couple, bickering in front of guests. The whole time she keeps saying "totally kidding" but i know she's actually doing her best to make me look like an a-hole. She left the room and i said to the couple "i shouldn't be here. Gonna get going now." w comes back in room. They got up to leave too. I hugged each of them and said great to see them, take care. I said not one word to w as i walked out, nor she to me.
> 
> After i left i texted gf's h and said "my gut told me to stay home. My gut hasn't failed me in months. My fault. Great to see you guys though..."
> 
> dude calls me immediately and said yeah, that seemed a little off. I said, whatever, i allowed her to hijack my evening and you two didn't deserve to have to see that. Let's just say *never again* on that front, okay?" we talked for a while. He totally agreed and felt horrible that he went over there instead of calling me first. I said "totally my bad, i was joking with her and she took it seriously and took over the evening. No worries."
> 
> got home, petted the pups, had a brief cry (first time in a week), then texted stbxw "hey - that was really fun! We should do that more often."
> 
> she came back with "liar. You should've stayed. You're missing golden girls."
> 
> 
> let me categorically state...wait for it...wait for it...f**k this.
> 
> I was wrong. Again. Again. I knew better, and i let myself lose this round. She is stronger and healthier now, and as i had predicted, she very well may revert right back to the horrible person i lived with for the few months before i left. It appears she did.
> 
> I will text her tomorrow and tell her "i'll file the taxes on thursday and email you signature pages. Have a nice trip."
> 
> the b***h is back.
> 
> I...am...a...jackass...yet...again...
> 
> 
> *&^#$%*&%^[email protected]#$*&(^#%$*(&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just try to talk me out of xanax and vodka martinis tonight.
> 
> P.s. W's gained 15 pounds in the last month. Good.


and never, neverrrrrrrrrr accept her invitation again and stop taking care of her.


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## Shamwow

Ha. Good stuff...gonna go ahead and put that in my back pocket. 

And I totally agree about not accepting invitations. Let myself see the lines blur. That must stop.

Also...

I'm now making a resolution to not post right after some b*******, let it settle a bit first.

Enjoy the ride, keep your hands and arms in at all times.

I'll be fine. I am all over the place, and that frustrates me. Time to reevaluate my 180.


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## AniversaryFight

So...now Move on and enjoy the life. 

Forget about her, she is toxic.


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## Blue Moon

Sham,

I'm sorry you had to go through that, but I'm glad it happened if it strengthens you. Glad you're seeing clearly. Live your life, heal and protect yourself at all times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

sorry Sham- to me it was obvious that you wanted R despite what you were saying. But you can't get blood from a stone as they say


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## Chaparral

Dadof3 said:


> You are doing great, Sham. I think you are right about some of us wanting your wife to suffer, but I think most, if not all, want you to succeed on your own terms.
> 
> Keep your chin up. Although we seem to be hard on you, you still have our respect.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Under difficult circumstances you have done remarkably well. Don't really understand the motivation of all the extremely rude posts. Sounds like children having their toys taken away.

Its your life and your having to make life changing decisions. Wifes affair was every short lived as compared to other threads but very damaging. OTH she is ,I believe, salvageable or she wouldn't have been the center of your life for so long. And this is a complement to character you have shown through this ordeal.

I think the two of you could work it out simply because I think you are two good people at heart if thats what you decide to do. 

I think posters need to reflect a little more before casting stones. This could literally happen to anyone.


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## Almostrecovered

chapparal said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> I think the two of you could work it out simply because I think you are two good people at heart if thats what you decide to do.



I would have no problems with sham considering and attempting R if Mrs. Sham would actually show some real remorse. But unfortunately the closest she has come was a quick sorry in a text. Doesn't cut it imo. True R requires some major heavy lifting from the wayward and I don't see any signs that Mrs. Sham is willing to do that in the slightest and if she does want R she wants it on her terms and likely wants sham to "forgive and forget". 

Basically for R to work she has to be begging and willing to do anything and everything. At the very least she would have to ask for it for any progress to be made. Instead she invites him over to be buddies, texts other men with pics of her [email protected], whines about how hard this is going to be financially on her, still tries to paint sham as the bad guy, and all the while makes feeble attempts of keeping him close to be the guy she can dump on still.


----------



## lordmayhem

Almostrecovered said:


> I would have no problems with sham considering and attempting R if Mrs. Sham would actually show some real remorse. But unfortunately the closest she has come was a quick sorry in a text. Doesn't cut it imo. True R requires some major heavy lifting from the wayward and I don't see any signs that Mrs. Sham is willing to do that in the slightest and if she does want R she wants it on her terms and likely wants sham to "forgive and forget".
> 
> Basically for R to work she has to be begging and willing to do anything and everything. At the very least she would have to ask for it for any progress to be made. Instead she invites him over to be buddies, texts other men with pics of her [email protected], whines about how hard this is going to be financially on her, still tries to paint sham as the bad guy, and all the while makes feeble attempts of keeping him close to be the guy she can dump on still.


:iagree:

Any R at this point in time would only lead to False R. I don't see any true remorse at all, only attempts at manipulation. This is evident from her minimizing any help Sham gave her during her time of need. Instead of singing his praises to her friends for all the help and care he gave her, she says he just gave her bread and water and left. Now we see all the attempts at manipulation like watching the ball game, the scrabble games, etc. 

IMHO, she fully intended to ditch Sham for OM, because she thought he was the one she could run off with. She spent thousands of bucks prepping herself for her rendezvouz with OM in Vegas...in absolute defiance of Sham's wishes and attempts at R. What she didn't realize was that most OM will not leave their wives and OM threw her under the bus and scrambled to save his own marriage. She also didn't count on Sham catching on to her exit plan so early. 

Now she's back to blameshifting and is hot and heavy with her HS OM because he's available as evidenced by the constant texts during this get together at her house. This new OM is probably the replacement for Sham that she's desperately seeking.


----------



## harusty

Man, I hate the phrase "just kidding"! People think that they can say anything and then gloss it over with "just kidding", and then it's OK. I never let this go unchallenged when someone does it to me. F*** THAT!!! Sham, I spent 2 years going back and forth between the 1.0 & 2.0 versions of myself. I heard "just kidding" so many times that it really has become a pet peev to me. You backslid because you are a decent guy. There's nothing wrong with that, but it will only make it hard on you. You said recently that you finally felt like you didn't care and that it was refreshing. This is where you need to live. Unless she comes groveling at your feet, you have to detatch. I think that it's a great thing that she's going to be gone for awhile. Take the time to put her out of your mind and focus on YOU. Maybe you should buy a motorcycle and get out of town for a while yourself, LOL, "just kidding". Eventualy she will get tired of the endless steam of Douchbags and realize what she lost. I hope that you will be long gone by then. Don't beat yourself up too much, have a great day.


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## Why Not Be Happy?

Sham:
This is a process---a journey. You're doing fine! It is normal to have highs and lows. You will make mistakes and you will get through this. Hang in there!


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## Dadof3

My kids use the "just kidding" thing on my wife and I when they want are being disrespectful to us and we call them on it. We have had to have the conversation that disrespect is still disrespect if "just kidding / just joking" are used.


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## Unsure in Seattle

Brother, you don't have to be friends to be civil. No more hanging out or game playing. It's messing you up inside.


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## golfergirl

It's not like you showed up with bags ready to move in. She manipulated the situation, all involved knew that - she looks like the fool.
You're doing fine. Time for golfergirl hug not slap down. You ALWAYS have my respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy

Sham, maybe when she sobers up today she is going to be kicking herself hard. She screwed up big time. She had been trying to start getting sham back into her lonely pathetic life, and after getting you over there, she was drunk and so nasty you smartened up, and left.

She is now back to bring alone.

Btw, if she were to text another guy ever in you presence again, just walk away. It's deeply disreectful, and sham 2.0 doesn't take that crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Woke up today realizing I was having bad dreams. First thought was "holy crap what did I post". Because after posting what happened last night I calmed down an hour later (xanax) and thought some of it was pretty reactive and premature.

Anyway, re-read it have no regreats, it really wasn't that big of a situation, but I think I was so angry because I knew I shouldn't go over there in the first place, considering that she changed the plans on me. Probably should have just said I had a last minute work thing that just came in (this happens regularly for me) and you guys have fun. But I didn't. And while there it really wasn't a "combative" situation by any traditional means, but the vibe was clearly in the air, so I guess it was at its base. Passive aggressive combat. She didn't really win anything from her behavior, as I didn't throw a tantrum and run out of the house or anything, I did stay calm, though like I said I indulged a few 'short' responses to her perceived goading, and I'm sure that didn't go unnoticed. She knew it affected me, even if I stayed calm while responding.

Just made a bad decision last night, all good. I'm taking a serious look at my 180 today, and trying to figure out what I'm ignoring that's causing me to lose some nerve. Have an appt with my therapist this afternoon as well. Not sure if I'm looking forward to it or not. Feel like I'm going to AA and having to admit that I "had a few drinks last night, but I'm back on top of things and no worries." I indulged a few sips of friendliness with W and this time I was certainly not rewarded...regardless of whatever her initial intentions for the evening were when she extended the burger/movie invite, she did not make it worth my time or effort in any way. I really don't think her plan was to hijack my night and ambush me in front of friends. That's just the way it played out. She thought I was serious when joking she should try to convince gf's H to go over there instead. My fault for putting such an option out there even in a joking manner. Perhaps my subconscious was hoping for a mental beating?

Her fault for presenting such a useless get together when we shouldn't be socializing in the first place, and certainly not with others.

So many things I'm tired of. As much as I hoped she would try to make things right (whatever that might mean) before leaving this weekend, I agree that it will probably be a great time for me to detach more than I have lately. She's going off with Satan's minions (toxic work group) and will either firmly plant herself in her new toxic persona, or feel awkward about it because they all know what she did and what happened as a result, and be more self-conscious and hesitant of being party girl. Sadly, I got 10 bucks on option A.

She has 3 locations over the next month (back a few days in between each). One of the locations is Vegas (yay!). Sure hs douche will be joining her on that one. Just annoyed and kinda disgusted. I cut her loose pretty hard, and while I think it's inappropriate to date while still married (at least in any serious way), we all know here she has essentially been dating for 5 months, so how would it be any worse for me. So she can do as she pleases.

A billboard on the strip in Vegas is still tempting though. "Hey _____ - use a condom this time okay? Tired of going to the doctor every time you come home. Cheers, Your loyal spouse who is divorcing you." (with nice large photo of her). Anyone want to pitch in on the cost? I'm thinking somewhere by Paris/NY NY...

Eh, whatever. 

Thought I was done with the back and forth. Thanks for supporting my ride...


----------



## Gabriel

Sham, I am sorry about all of this. I think we were all just trying to prevent you from going through even more pain, which was inevitable here. 

But you know what to do - maybe you needed one more smack on the head by your WW to finalize it for you. In the end, you have to make all the decisions and be okay with them. 

Looks like this evening solidified that even more for you. You fell for the bait for awhile, but you didn't eat it. Instead, you took it off the hook, smelled it, and put it right back on. So I think you are okay. Just stay the course, and move forward with your life!


----------



## Shaggy

Sham,

Why notgo take a week someplace sunny and filled with single women. Nothing serious, just Sham 2.0 showing to Sham: 1. You are attractive to women, 2. WW isn't the only fish in the sea.

Honestly it would do you emotionally a world of good to have some meaningless vacation playtime with a nice single woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Shaggy said:


> Sham,
> 
> Why notgo take a week someplace sunny and filled with single women. Nothing serious, just Sham 2.0 showing to Sham: 1. You are attractive to women, 2. WW isn't the only fish in the sea.
> 
> Honestly it would do you emotionally a world of good to have some meaningless vacation playtime with _*a nice single woman*_.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


change that to _*nice single women*_!

Hey Sham - if you are serious about that billboard, I'll be down there next week to give you feedback on how it looks... 
:rofl:


----------



## uphillbattle

"A billboard on the strip in Vegas is still tempting though. "Hey _____ - use a condom this time okay? Tired of going to the doctor every time you come home. Cheers, Your loyal spouse who is divorcing you." (with nice large photo of her). Anyone want to pitch in on the cost? I'm thinking somewhere by Paris/NY NY..."

I believe we should take up a collection for this. I will have never donated to a more worthy cause. Put me down for 200$.


----------



## Dadof3

I'd be game to donating too.


----------



## Almostrecovered

youre talking ten grand at the very least probably more


----------



## ArmyofJuan

Shamwow said:


> I will text her tomorrow and tell her "I'll file the taxes on Thursday and email you signature pages. Have a nice trip."


Leave out "Have a nice trip", never put anything remotely personal or casual like that. Be like a robot when texting/emailing.

As a matter of fact, I wouldn't even tell her, I'd just do it. If she thinks it was rude that you didn't warn her then too bad. 

Personally I think you are way too "nice" to her. You need to approach her like she is the most annoying person in the world and whenever your find yourself communicating with her your goal should be to end it asap. Always hang up first and ignore her 90% of the time.

She is not your wife, she is not your friend, she is not an acquaintance, she is nobody to you. She doesn't deserve your respect so don't give her any.

That should put a dent in her ego. We all want what we can't have and once she realizes you are gone and not even remotely interested in going back to her you will suddenly be much respectable to her. The most desirable people are the ones we can't have.


----------



## uphillbattle

Almostrecovered said:


> youre talking ten grand at the very least probably more


It is probibly in the area around 25k for a week if you want it in any remotly traveled area. We have a ton of people on these boards and brobibly several hundred atleast have followed his story. Wouldn't be too much of a stretch if we had more time but with only a few days probibly not possible. Its a nice thought though.


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## Shamwow

We have three weeks before Vegas.  Thanks for the support all. It would be epic, no?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

sham you're like a bipolar person on crack right now. You keep flipping from wanting to hang out with the wife to plotting revenge fantasies.

It is said that the opposite of love is indifference and not hate.

The best way to get "revenge" is to show her how she doesn't factor into your life anymore. It is the reason she fell apart during the time you went dark. Now I am not saying you should go dark again. but I agree with the other poster who stated that you should keep your contact to "all business".


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## Shamwow

Almost...I am not actually planning to put a billboard in Vegas. Just thought it was funny (which it is). But yeah I'll take the bipolar critique, can't argue that I've been stable and one-directional in my dealings lately. Working on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Besides, the board would go against the motto of Vegas that "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas".


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## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Almost...I am not actually planning to put a billboard in Vegas. Just thought it was funny (which it is). But yeah I'll take the bipolar critique, can't argue that I've been stable and one-directional in my dealings lately. Working on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sarcasm doesnt translate well online, so I'll back off your statement
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Unsure in Seattle

In all seriousness, Sham, I'd say that you need to go back to doing your own thing. Maybe not 100% dark, but less casual and, well, friendly*. It's not to punish your STBXW- it's to distance yourself from a toxic relationship and to start (kickstart) the process of moving on.

The mutual game playing and so forth is doing you no favors, emotionally. Meanwhile, she's scrambling to control you again. Stay away from her and her affairs (where possible and appropriate). You've been the nice guy, even thru this process. Now, you need to free yourself from the rest of it and move on.



*You DO NOT have to be her friend to be polite in dealing with her


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## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> Sarcasm doesnt translate well online, so I'll back off your statement
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Got the sarcasm...I was just saying I'm messing around with the whole billboard thing, but I also agree with you that I do a lot of waffling back and forth, at least in my thoughts as I post on here. All good man!


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## MrQuatto

Sham, we all have opinions on what you should or should not do/have done/could have done.... etc. But they are simply opinions.

What we all need to keep in mind is that you, like every other LS, originally made a life committment to your partner. A committment you planned and obviously continued to believe in, work towards and lived, thinking it was safely in place, reguardless of any past problems or issues.

Then the cold reality punched you in the face. We all, who were put in that position, reeled when it happened to us. Some of us dealt with it better than others. Some reeled and staggered and swayed for weeks or months before we found firm ground. 

That is because WE still held the core of that lifelong committment within us. that core, that committment, takes time to weed out, to isolate and straighten out and put in it's place. It was unthinkable that something like that could have happened and then we were grasping at straws on how to deal with it.

We want to believe that the DS can come out of the fog, can see the errors of their ways, become reasonable and responsible, feel guilt and remorse for what happened and possibly work to repair that broken committment. 

For some, that does indeed happen. Sadly, for most it does not. And it was not until we accepted that reality, that truth, that we could truly move forward. And for you, it will be the same as well. 

We can point out what we think was done wrong, where you made an error but truly, you can only be who you are, can only do what YOU believe is right for you in this situation. All we are trying to do is point out the mistakes we see you making that we ourselves made. But that doesn't mean we are right or that it applies to, or will work for you. 

So please, understand that we can get short and can come across as mean, but for us, we are not realizing that we are simply showing the frustration of watching you make the same mistakes we made ourselves. Again. we may not be right, but in our own crazy way, we are trying to help. 

In the end, the correct decision is what ever one you make, can live with, be confortable with and move forward in your life. The rest of this is really just pizzing in the wind, with the hope that we hit the fire in one way or another.

Q~


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## harusty

Sham

Sit back and think about where YOU want to be two years from now. The possibilities are endless. I'll bet you don't want to be sitting around wondering why you wasted two years of your life playing head games with someone who isn't even in your league. Don't waste a bunch of time, like I did, on useless bull****. The grass IS greener for you on the other side. To hell with people who lie to you and betray you. They aren't worth the time of day!


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## NotLikeYou

Shamwow said:


> I went. Sham 1.0 back in full effect. Did exactly what I knew I shouldn't. Sorry all, it was a horrible night. (NYL, I still want to punch you in the proverbial neck for knocking the wind out of me earlier tonight, but you were right.)
> 
> *&^#$%*&%^[email protected]#$*&(^#%$*(&!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just TRY to talk me out of Xanax and vodka martinis tonight.
> 
> P.S. W's gained 15 pounds in the last month. Good.


Sham- I understand the urge to respond to tough love. Please know that sometimes I am pretty harsh with my comments.

Please also understand that I am not espousing you being a d1ck to her, calling her names, or anything else. And you wouldn't be human to have gone through this horrible thing and not have doubts and episodes of second guessing. Despite any setbacks, you are still doing awesome.

The purpose of my caustic commentary is push you through this thing to its ending, whatever that turns out to be, sooner rather than later. 

If you decide to R, that is your choice. But your stated goal is D. Closure and an apology would be great, but not if it causes you to lose Sham 2.0.

EVERY single time you have given your wife some rope, she has knotted it up on you. She continues to screw with you every chance she gets.

I know you have lots of great memories with her, but she does not want the best for you. She does not want to see you happy or healthy or successful of especially with someone who treasures you.

You don't have to be a d1ck to her. But the next time that little voice in your head says "DON'T DO IT," you should listen!

And, again, not trying to tell you how to live your life, but you have demonstrated about 1000% more strength-of-character than you need to skip on Xanax and Vodka. Alcohol makes you do stupid things like call your wife in the night to try to have an "honest conversation." 

You're a funny and articulate guy. You're going to make it through this, and come out better on the other side.


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## Shamwow

Just licking my wounds. Didn't handle yesterday well. Appreciate the understanding. (NYL - owe you a "my bad"...I did say the "proverbial" neck...but I retract it either way, just being reactive, and that's one of my go to phrases as of late)

Regret fueling the fire with alcohol. Another tandem element of backsliding I guess. Thank god I did that at home and not in front of stbxw or friends. I've never tended to drunk dial or drunk text...ever...but dangerous to put myself in any position to maybe go there. Especially right now when I need to build myself up as much as possible.

Good session with therapist today...


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## Shamwow

MrQuatto said:


> Sham, we all have opinions on what you should or should not do/have done/could have done.... etc. But they are simply opinions.
> 
> What we all need to keep in mind is that you, like every other LS, originally made a life committment to your partner. A committment you planned and obviously continued to believe in, work towards and lived, thinking it was safely in place, reguardless of any past problems or issues.
> 
> Then the cold reality punched you in the face. We all, who were put in that position, reeled when it happened to us. Some of us dealt with it better than others. Some reeled and staggered and swayed for weeks or months before we found firm ground.
> 
> That is because WE still held the core of that lifelong committment within us. that core, that committment, takes time to weed out, to isolate and straighten out and put in it's place. It was unthinkable that something like that could have happened and then we were grasping at straws on how to deal with it.
> 
> We want to believe that the DS can come out of the fog, can see the errors of their ways, become reasonable and responsible, feel guilt and remorse for what happened and possibly work to repair that broken committment.
> 
> For some, that does indeed happen. Sadly, for most it does not. And it was not until we accepted that reality, that truth, that we could truly move forward. And for you, it will be the same as well.
> 
> We can point out what we think was done wrong, where you made an error but truly, you can only be who you are, can only do what YOU believe is right for you in this situation. All we are trying to do is point out the mistakes we see you making that we ourselves made. But that doesn't mean we are right or that it applies to, or will work for you.
> 
> So please, understand that we can get short and can come across as mean, but for us, we are not realizing that we are simply showing the frustration of watching you make the same mistakes we made ourselves. Again. we may not be right, but in our own crazy way, we are trying to help.
> 
> In the end, the correct decision is what ever one you make, can live with, be confortable with and move forward in your life. The rest of this is really just pizzing in the wind, with the hope that we hit the fire in one way or another.
> 
> Q~


This is really helpful...just need to refocus on myself, continue rewriting my life without her and stop expecting her to somehow again be the woman I loved.

And let's see if I can knock out that last 15 pounds this month too. I've maintained since I lost 50, but haven't lost any in a month. Little ways to go, that should boost me even more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Besides, the board would go against the motto of Vegas that "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas".


Not exactly...the board would be in Vegas, therefore "staying" in Vegas. Also, the motto isn't "what's contracted in Vegas stays in Vegas."

Heck, maybe we could get a major health insurer to bankroll it as a PSA...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## F-102

Say, I was wondering: what are the "toxic brigade" who encouraged and enabled her party-girl lifestyle and infidelity going to think when she returns for another round with them? Especially since she's gaining weight and she is no longer the "same"?

They may very well drop her like a greased bowling ball!


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## Shamwow

I have no idea. It may be biz as usual...or she may feel awkward the whole time. We shall see. Her texts show a few of them are remaining supporting and loyal, others she loathes to see. She'll prob cite her injury and blame me for stress. I would if I were her (but...I'm not).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maxter

MrQuatto said:


> We want to believe that the DS can come out of the fog, can see the errors of their ways, become reasonable and responsible, feel guilt and remorse for what happened and possibly work to repair that broken committment.
> 
> For some, that does indeed happen. Sadly, for most it does not. And it was not until we accepted that reality, that truth, that we could truly move forward. And for you, it will be the same as well. Q~


So true. I desperately wanted to believe my DS would come around. She played and used me in ways that made me think this was possible, year after year. Finally 3 1/2yrs later I finally saw the light but only after she made a couple huge mistakes one of which involved our children. That one woke me up and I finally filed for D in August. It's still very difficult for me to comprehend where my new life is headed. Deep down inside I still love her despite the harm she's done to me and I'm having trouble letting those last few threads of hope evaporate. It's tuff!


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## Shamwow

Knew it. Today's our tax appointment (we filed an extension earlier this year). The other night as she was telling our friends how Thurs and Fri we were going to go over all our assets, file taxes, and a bunch of other crap they had no interest in hearing, I said something like "No we won't. You'll be so busy because you're leaving town on Saturday. I'm taking care of it, it's off your plate." Of course she said that wouldn't be the case.

Haven't responded to her since Tues (that night that sucked) and was planning to just go today by myself. Didn't remind her.

She just called and asked if she had to be there.

Ha, who knows his stbxw? Sham knows his stbxw.

No big deal, just kinda surprising she'd let me sign for her on the taxes right now, considering how paranoid she is about my "expensive" lawyer and how I'm being "vengeful". Oh well. Unfortunately, she can trust me.


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## Dadof3

Sham - I'd make her go no matter what. not to see her, but to make her start living the consequences (not that she isn't) - but up close and personal what she'll be dealing with on her own next year.


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## Shamwow

She'll find that out when she sees her amount owed (we're behind on quarterlies). It's gonna be a nuclear bomb of epic proportions. I can see "making her go" but all that'll do it make her sit there all pissed in the same room with me for 90 minutes. Doesn't sound like fun...so I'm all good crunching it with the tax man myself. It's all tallied already, just have to watch the guy type it in, find out how many trillion dollars we owe, chuckle, and then sign. (sadly becoming an annual tradition). Then email my W saying "your portion of our monthly payments for the next 12 months will be____." 

Geez I hope she doesn't file bankruptcy (before the divorce is final)...that's the only way she can screw me anymore...


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## aug

Are you allowed to sign for her? 

Will signing for her make you financially responsible for tax owing?


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## Dadof3

I am confused with that, Sham.

I always had the impression that when a couple were married, the couple declared bankruptcy.

Do you have a separation agreement in place (if indeed its true) to spare you from the shockwave?


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## Shamwow

I'll have to ask my attorney I guess. I think it's possible, Dad, but only in regards to the mortgage. Her debt attorney (that she had to hire to inquire about short sale options on the house) mentioned that if she declared bankruptcy while still married, that the mortgage could transfer to my name due to marriage laws in the state. Of course she said "that won't happen", but yeah, I'm believing anything out of her mouth these days, right?

Suddenly nervous though. I think it's a good idea to draw up a separation agreement in the meantime (guess I skipped this step because I went straight to D papers). Is that something we can do on our own and hand to our lawyers as "agreed upon", or do I need to drop the cash to have them write it up? Or is there a template that someone might recommend? In the meantime I'm pretty sure any debts incurred after the serving of the divorce papers become our individual debts. But crap. Gotta call my guy again...

She'll be gone for the next week, so she won't be doing anything financially until she's back. I'll make sure I'm covered.


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## karole

Even if she does file bankruptcy, she will still have to pay her taxes. You can't discharge taxes, child support, student loans, etc. in bankruptcy. If she filed bankruptcy and tried to pass the house to you, you could always file too - I know you don't want to, but beats getting stuck w/her mountain of debt. Talk to your attorney about it and ask if there is a way to protect yourself and your assets.


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## Dadof3

yea - recommend asking the lawyer about that. wish i could be of some help, but I am no lawyer, although I played one on TV! (NOT!)

Keep smiling!


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## Shamwow

aug said:


> Are you allowed to sign for her?
> 
> Will signing for her make you financially responsible for tax owing?


I can sign for her, all that's required is a note from her stating that I have permission to sign for her on our 2010 taxes, it just goes on file at our accountant's. Then signed and dated. She already emailed it to me (we've done it once before, when I couldn't make it one year for the final filing).

As for being financially responsible for her taxes, since we're filing jointly (we have to yet this year) technically I think we are both responsible for half of the tax due. But I figure we'll do an equitable split based on the percentage of total income each of us made. I'll have to pay slightly more to the IRS (monthly) than she will in this arrangement, but this last year our numbers were fairly equal, so it'll be almost 50/50 anyway.


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## F-102

Look at the bright side, Sham-next year, she'll be on her own!


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## Dadof3

At the point, you can start calling her bird lady, or cat lady, whichever pet she decides to start keeping her company!


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## Shamwow

Ramen lady, more likely. Just left tax guy. We owe what I made in a year in 2005. Ouch. I'm starting to reel w the finances, but she's gotta be freaking the **** out. We should both stay away from sharp objects for a while...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

maybe even pizza the hut? (from your posts that she's gained 15 lbs from pizza every night!)


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## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> Look at the bright side, Sham-next year, she'll be on her own!


Hopefully...if we're not finalized by the first of the year we have to file jointly again, or married but separated (which is apparently more expensive to do). Good times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Gotta get down to business...

Numbers flying everywhere...so used to taking solace in having a partner to deal with this kind of thing...I'll come out much better than her (and with my credit intact) so I can't complain...but prob be a lean year or two no matter what.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

so why weren't you withdrawing more taxes throughout the year or take less deductions?


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## Dadof3

Almost: It's probably 1099 work, am I right Sham?


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## Shamwow

We both work freelance. No one takes taxes out except us. Last year we didn't make quarterly payments, spent a lot on travel etc. Knew we were gonna be screwed. Not the end of the world, done it before. Couple big jobs and I'll be back on top. Same for her but it'll take longer, due to the nature of our respective businesses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Almost: It's probably 1099 work, am I right Sham?


Yep. Up to each of us to be responsible w saving for taxes. She picked a bad year to cheat and destroy our marriage I guess. Oops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrQuatto

Not to be a pest sham but I do hope the DS hasn't chained you inher basement or something 

All is well I hope?

Q~


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## Shamwow

Nope, free and clear here. You were close though.

Interesting Fri night. Flirted with the dark side, feel fine about it. But definitely not without implications.

Um...Almost spent the night with her. But I didn't. She had invited me over to talk again, and she opened up a lot more, talked about a lot of things, we both did. She told me a lot more about the A and why she acted the way she did, and that she knew she was wrong in doing what she did, she even mentioned details that she didnt know i already knew...she said she was so confused at the time she thought she'd "try it" (with D-Bag) and hopefully realize it wasn't the answer and she'd come running back to me...but that I was gone when she got back so it didn't matter, she couldn't run back anyway. She mentioned this in the context of Vegas...I corrected her and said "well, and a week earlier when he was in _____". She said yeah...basically corroborated the story OMW got from D-Bag (not that it makes it true, I'm aware). That there were two days they actually got physical. The night she went out a day early for the trip a week before Vegas, and the day she went to Vegas. He supposedly told her he was done the second day in Vegas. And that's why she came home a wreck and crying...along with (a distant second, sadly) having to deal with seeing me after what she did. They also both claim the sex was not good or worth it.

Interesting...She asked me if I was in Vegas (imagine she's been dying to know)...I said no, but I may as well have been. I explained some of my handling of things too, but didn't apologize for anything from d-day on. She gave me s**t about the panties and the lab test. Told her if the situation were reversed I'd be in some dungeon torture camp, tied down with duct tape and some dude taking a belt sander to my nipples (ripped off 24 a bit with that one). She conceded that point. I suggested she lay off the wine while on the road...she didn't "appreciate my comment" but agreed that I was probably right (though "it's not like she was getting hammered everynight"...she may not be now, but she was during the A, and we clearly both know the extent). She responded well to me not apologizing or backing down (sure wish I'd learned to handle things like this years ago). She was being sweet and kinda suggestive and playful. It was getting late, I got up to leave, actually gave her a hug at the door, and she came in hard. Nothing crazy, just a good strong hug, prob about 30 secs.

Then she invited me to stay, no funny business just why drive home, it's late. I stayed a while longer, and it felt nice, but I knew any longer and I'd be in dangerous territory. Sex was supposedly off the table, but I knew better. Even got to laying down for bed, she took my hand, we laid and talked. Found myself wanting to pound her back to the stone age with some good angry sex. Realized we were in mixed signal land, screwed on my brain, got up and said "It really was good to see you. Thanks for having me over, but I don't feel right staying the night. Sure you understand". She didn't freak, but was visibly upset, looking lonely, gave me a little crap etc, but said it's okay, good night. I did the right thing, but I pushed the envelope. It started to feel too easy. Can't be her booty call. Even if she was being sincere, she was playing w me.

She texted this morning saying thanks for coming over, it was fun to hang out.

Good thing she's gone for a week. I'm giving her mixed signals bigtime (as she is to me). Clearly R is more on my mind than I'd have myself believe (on hers too, more than she'd have me believe). She has a long way to go to deserve anything of the kind though. Have to be very careful. Bring it on folks, I can take it. Went with my gut, and it didn't produce bad results (quite good actually), just got me into uncharted territory.


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## lordmayhem

I hate to say this Sham, but this is more back sliding, and it's hurting the progress you've made. It's so very clear now how truly manipulative she is. You know this. You opened the door a tiny crack by going over, and she took full advantage of it. You gave an inch and now she's taking a mile.

Notice how she blameshifted by saying she'd come running back, but you had already left. She wanted to come back to the marriage but you already left? Really? Never mind the fact that you had already clearly communicated what would happen if she left for Vegas in the first place. But she was determined to go anyway, regardless of how you felt and what it would do to your marriage.

At least you found out that she banged OM before she went to Vegas. If the sex was not good, then why did she spend so much money prepping herself, buying lingerie, for Round 2 in Vegas? She minimized what she had done (sex), which is typical of the WS. And don't believe for a second that it was only 2 occasions.

Then she tried her feminine wiles to get you into the sack, because that physical reconnection would definitely throw a monkey wrench into your plans and give her a temporary reprieve from the pending divorce. This would give her time to get her new exit plan in place. Remember, this is a woman that is texting her new OM, the HS douche bag, and minimized to her friends what you did to care for her when she was hurt. If she really appreciated it, she would have been singing your praises to all who could hear. Remember the bread and water remark?

Now you've given her hope that all she has to do is work on you a bit more and you're going to melt sooner or later. Come on Sham, you're better than this. You're clearly being manipulated here. Are you now at her beck and call again? She gives you a call and you come a running?

If you have to talk about anything, it has to be about financial matters, and it should be done in a public place. No going over and sitting on the couch drinking wine. Because you're definitely weakening. The next time you go over there in a setting like this, I bet your resolve will weaken and you will end up banging her.

She's about to go on her road trip with her toxic friends. Do you really think she's just going to be remorseful and thinking about you the whole time? Or do you think she's going to be in contact with the new OM and partying it up on the road?


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## Catherine602

It is not surprising that you find her irresistible at this point. She provided you with love and support up until the time she decided to betray and humiliate you. Up until then, you went to her to feel the loved and she did love. You are naturally drawn back to the well because you miss that love that was once there.

I just don't think that the love you came to know and depend on is there anymore Sham. That woman who loved you is gone and this new person appears to want to avoid her fate by dangling a cheap thrills in your face. After all it seemed to work with DB #s 1 & 2. 

It will be difficult I am certain but I really think you need to avoid any contact with her except for bisiness. You have to break the habit of looking to her for love. The question is - is true R in the cards. For many couples apparently yes. But I think it happens when the WS is truly remorseful and is prostrate with guilt and demonstrates unconditional love and atonement. Your STBX shows none of these. She appears to be giving just enough to keep you comming back for more. That is not true remorse and she is doing nothing to put herself on the line to atone. 

Sham think about what your life will be like with this new woman. She has become a serial cheater and you need to be concerned that she will cheat again. Or she may eventually find an OM who she can get to stay with her and then bid you good bye. You are not her first choice you are her fall back. 

Just a few thoughts to help you through this natural period of drifting back to her. It will happen but i think the more you resist the easier it will be. Then you will find she has no power over you. The best way to get there is to avoid her like a bad drug. On some level you will always love her, that is natural. But a greater love is in your future if you accept that the woman who loved you is dead. 

Sham - it is difficult for me to believe that this new person pop out of her all of a sudden. Do you think that you may have overlooked what she may have always have been? You want to avoid getting another woman who may conceal her true nature so think about how it came about that you did not see that she was capable of this coldness and selfishness. 

I think that if you observe a potential partner behaving badly towards others, you can count on them treating you the same way eventually. You may have seen her in action but dismissed it because it was not directed towards you. If so, She was revealing her character in unguarded moments. 

I think you are doing very well. You made no mistake. You needed to make sure that the woman you loved is truly not there otherwise it would be difficult for you to move on. It sounds like she is gone and not coming back, unfortunately. What do you think Sham?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral

I'm an optimist. I know from personal experience that it is possible to reconcile after a brief affair. Plenty of other people here have done it too. Many of them say their marriage is better than ever. Do what you think is right and take these posts with a grain of salt. 

I read these posts and for the life of me, cannot see where the conclusions of the posters come from. Maybe its my attitude but the facts that you have written about do not support what I have seen written. 

If they were true I don't think you would have ever married Mrs. Sham in the first place. I definitely think this is a case of seven year itch and that is terribly wrong. Unfortunately, a long distance relationship is not going to survive. But I simply don't see a mean, nasty, manipulating, witch in the things you have posted. More like a lonely, on the road, to often away from husband's support, bored, partying, insecure and confused wife.

I'm older now and have seen too much and have seen this kind of thing since my twenties. Thats why I am the jealous type. My wife has had to travel one night for business. Any more than that and she would have had to find a new job. Business trips, girls/boys nights out, bachelor/bachlorette parties, all guaranteed disasters. And thats unfortunate.

If you want an eye opener search for most likely professions to cheat and then search for most likely day for a woman to cheat.

Forgiveness is a blessing we would all be damned without. Whatever you two do some of us will be praying for you to be happy, live long, and prosper.

Chap


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## Chaparral

Forgot to say I like it that you had the courage to go over and have a real conversation. Congrats


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## tacoma

Sounds like she`s opening up.

You are walking a mine field Sham but there`s no other way if you want to R and I wouldn`t blame you for wanting it.

Keep doing what your doing but don`t cross that line of intimacy until she knows without a doubt what she did to you and your marriage.

I don`t think she`s there yet and it will take awhile.


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## Mike11

chapparal said:


> I'm an optimist. I know from personal experience that it is possible to reconcile after a brief affair. Plenty of other people here have done it too. Many of them say their marriage is better than ever. Do what you think is right and take these posts with a grain of salt.
> 
> I read these posts and for the life of me, cannot see where the conclusions of the posters come from. Maybe its my attitude but the facts that you have written about do not support what I have seen written.
> 
> If they were true I don't think you would have ever married Mrs. Sham in the first place. I definitely think this is a case of seven year itch and that is terribly wrong. Unfortunately, a long distance relationship is not going to survive. But I simply don't see a mean, nasty, manipulating, witch in the things you have posted. More like a lonely, on the road, to often away from husband's support, bored, partying, insecure and confused wife.
> 
> I'm older now and have seen too much and have seen this kind of thing since my twenties. Thats why I am the jealous type. My wife has had to travel one night for business. Any more than that and she would have had to find a new job. Business trips, girls/boys nights out, bachelor/bachlorette parties, all guaranteed disasters. And thats unfortunate.
> 
> If you want an eye opener search for most likely professions to cheat and then search for most likely day for a woman to cheat.
> 
> Forgiveness is a blessing we would all be damned without. Whatever you two do some of us will be praying for you to be happy, live long, and prosper.
> 
> Chap


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## golfergirl

I guess I am shocked that 3 days is all it took for another round. I don't buy the she ended it with OM and chose you but was heartbroken because you dumped her. If you recall, the texts and emails were flying like crazy between her and OM until you exposed to OMW and he freaked out and dumped your wife. Not saying I'm against R but do it on facts and honesty, not re-writing history to make it fit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Sham , while I'm not privy to all of your dealings with her it seems to come down to one point.....you were 2nd choice. I may be wrong but if the OM would call her tomorrow saying he and the wife were done I think she would jump right back in.


----------



## Blue Moon

Sigh
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> I guess I am shocked that 3 days is all it took for another round. I don't buy the she ended it with OM and chose you but was heartbroken because you dumped her. If you recall, the texts and emails were flying like crazy between her and OM until you exposed to OMW and he freaked out and dumped your wife. Not saying I'm against R but do it on facts and honesty, not re-writing history to make it fit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, she didn't say she had ended it with him, or that she was running back to me. Just that it was her thought process going in.. And I didn't buy it. Just saying what she said, that's all. It was another of her deflective comments like "doesn't matter cause we're getting a divorce anyway".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sod

Good for you Sham in keeping the lines of communication open and maintaining your new you. You do sound confused as to what you want (R or not) but it seems you will figure that out when you are ready. Keep hold of Mk 2 and tread carefully.


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> Sham , while I'm not privy to all of your dealings with her it seems to come down to one point.....you were 2nd choice. I may be wrong but if the OM would call her tomorrow saying he and the wife were done I think she would jump right back in.


Probably very true, good point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sixteen miles

Well I am with Chapparel on this as I too am an eternal optimist! I always felt the ultimate remorse and apology would eventually come along. I also feel the heart to heart discussion is good and needed for closure or for R.

Only you Sham can know in your heart how you feel and you need to follow that; you are doing great. Everyone needs answers and this whole situation was like a huge bomb that went off in your life; it hurts and answers can help you cope. I agree to tread carefully, your wife is a complex and difficult person. Remember back however to her upbringing under her father and his ministry. Forgiveness is what your wife was raised on and what she expected and the new Sham scared the daylights out her. I really think only you can know the level of sincerity inside of her by very close examination and treading carefully. I also think that thousands of posters here are just that, posters and opinions. Only you know what forgiveness is in your heart. Getting hurt once is painful, twice maybe unbearable. Open up to her, I really feel only that will bring closure or r. Make no mistake the new Shamwow has surprised her and worked at her also; I am sure it is brutal on her end.

It is plain to see you still love her; and it is working at you really hard; that is natural. I would keep the lines open and the discussions heartfelt; but then again I am an optimist.


----------



## Shamwow

Couple clarifications:



lordmayhem said:


> Notice how she blameshifted by saying she'd come running back, but you had already left. She wanted to come back to the marriage but you already left? Really?


Definitely noticed the blameshifting. Clearly she was trying to imply that by mentioning it at all, but she didn't say that she actually was running back to me and by then I was gone, just that it didn't matter if she had wanted to run back because I had taken that option off the table for her already.



> At least you found out that she banged OM before she went to Vegas. If the sex was not good, then why did she spend so much money prepping herself, buying lingerie, for Round 2 in Vegas? She minimized what she had done (sex), which is typical of the WS. And don't believe for a second that it was only 2 occasions.


I know my story is confusing w the many trips I've referenced, so just want to re-explain the week before Vegas. She went for a weeklong work trip mid-Aug, at the end of that trip she had tacked on 2 days in Vegas. Her prepping was in the two-three weeks prior to leaving for that trip. So it was before the first time they were together that she prepped, bought lingerie, etc. The texts from the time show that they had not yet been physical and were ramping up to that trip. I don't believe that it was only twice but I do believe it didn't happen before that trip. As for the other indiscretions that didn't lead to sex, partying too hard, creepy text/hotel guy, etc we haven't even gotten into any of that yet.



> Then she tried her feminine wiles to get you into the sack, because that physical reconnection would definitely throw a monkey wrench into your plans and give her a temporary reprieve from the pending divorce. This would give her time to get her new exit plan in place


.

Agreed. Weird thing is though, we talked about divorce details too...and she said the divorce has to be final before she can do the short sale on the house (in order to prove hardship). She's not trying to stop the divorce, at least not overtly, I think she's confused and doesn't know what the hell she's doing.




> Now you've given her hope that all she has to do is work on you a bit more and you're going to melt sooner or later.


Is this a bad thing? As long as I don't melt and I continue to present myself Mk II (but with an interest in hearing her out), she can keep working on me all she wants. 



> No going over and sitting on the couch drinking wine. Because you're definitely weakening. The next time you go over there in a setting like this, I bet your resolve will weaken


I agree...I know this is very dangerous territory.



> She's about to go on her road trip with her toxic friends. Do you really think she's just going to be remorseful and thinking about you the whole time? Or do you think she's going to be in contact with the new OM and partying it up on the road?


We shall see. I'm not telling her I want her back or anything, I have laid down no expectations for her travel as if I'm invested in her being faithful to me at all. She has no reason to be faithful to me at this point, unless she decides she wants to. I made the one comment about her probably wanting to lay off the wine on the road, but not in the context that I was asking her to do that for me, but just that it wasn't good for her. Seriously. I'm just letting the door stay open a crack and seeing what she does at this point.


----------



## Mike11

Shamwow said:


> This is awesome, btw.  Thanks for the insight!


Dont feed the Trolls Sham


----------



## Shamwow

Mike11 said:


> Dont feed the Trolls Sham


Clearly he was hungry.


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> This is awesome, btw.  Thanks for the insight!


If I could have understood it? Haha
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Weird, but do you notice a pattern here?

She felt she was "losing" D-Bag McGee when the sex wasn't good the 1st time, so she went all sexy (hair, lingerie, etc.) for their next hookup.

Now she KNOWS she's lost you, and now she's trying to be all "honest and transparent" (albeit, still trickle-truthing and blame-shifting), hoping that she can eventually wear you down...

...and she has the knowledge of knowing what works on you, (or on Sham Mk.I, at least), all in the hope of getting you to "come to your senses" and come crawling back to her, then she can have her old life back: Her cake-eating and doing what she wants with whom she wants, and you with the word "WELCOME" on your back.

Sham, if she asks to talk again, make sure it is in public, because the next time you go to the house, she will probably greet you at the door in sexy lingerie, or naked, and be the compliant "take me, I'm yours" woman who will turn into a vamp.


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> She felt she was "losing" D-Bag McGee when the sex wasn't good the 1st time, so she went all sexy (hair, lingerie, etc.) for their next hookup.


Again, she did all the hair/lingerie before their first meeting. The two meetings were one week apart, the prepping was in the weeks prior to that. But the point you make is still valid.



> Sham, if she asks to talk again, make sure it is in public, because the next time you go to the house, she will probably greet you at the door in sexy lingerie, or naked, and be the compliant "take me, I'm yours" woman who will turn into a vamp.


Good idea. Because your description here sounds really nice. Been a friggin long time. But yeah, meeting at the house is clearly dangerous.


----------



## aug

She's smart. She'll meet someone else. Maybe on one of her road trips.

Now that divorce is in progress, she'll be on the lookout for another man.

Sham is here and could be a backup.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Although her new lingerie won't fit anymore
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

I think basically my plan is to use this week to try to detach more (yes I know I said this a week ago too), and ignore what may happen when she gets back, because most likely it will be nothing. Up to her to make things happen if she's going to, my plan is the one in place and on track. I'm just giving her some slack to try if she wants. She may use that slack to hang herself, or she might gain some perspective. I have plenty of work this week, that will help. Keep hitting the gym and expect nothing from her. Obviously I have hopes that are hard to ignore...easier to ignore as I find myself writing here and clarifying things about her affair and other horrible behaviors of the last few months, as if they're more "details" than the actual horrific acts they were that blew up my world.

With her gone and busy with work I don't expect we'll be in contact anyway, at least not from me.

I know I'm playing with fire, but also have shown myself (and her) that I can be in her face and have an even keeled conversation about these things without backing down...that is huge, and feels good for myself in the mean time.

She is smart, and very easily can/will find someone else, at least to date. I guess I have to look at that as none of my business right now, as my position is we're divorcing and we're not in any active R of any kind, just talking. She's shown me cracks in her shell, and I don't know what they mean yet. She knows I'm not begging her or saying "It can all be okay if you just apologize and say you won't do it again." But I've dropped hints to make her think, while maintaining the divorce track, and it seems to have had some effect.

She goes back and forth in mood just as much as I do these days...hard to gauge. Unless she is clear with me, I can't do a darn thing except continue to be clear with her and go about my life.


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> Although her new lingerie won't fit anymore
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Okay, that one was pretty good. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrQuatto

joe kidd said:


> Sham , while I'm not privy to all of your dealings with her it seems to come down to one point.....you were 2nd choice. I may be wrong but if the OM would call her tomorrow saying he and the wife were done I think she would jump right back in.


Especially since she was discussing the exit plan in the past?

Q~


----------



## Almostrecovered

Sham for a real and proper R you basically have to have your wife practically beg you for it. From what you've said she has shown some cracks but I seriously doubt that she is the type of person willing to take on 100% blame of anything. As such, this game you're playing of sending mixed signals is more likely screwing up your mind more than hers.

you really have to pick a path imo-

A) continue with divorce, stop the hanging out and such, be friendly but not friends. Have a good life without the worry of a wife cheating on you, maybe find someone else who is deserving of such a great guy like and what you have to offer her. (and ride off into the sunset)

B) lay the cards out on the table- tell her that before the divorce she would have to do X (x being your conditions, you know what that is, so no point in me telling you) if she has the desire to R. Don't make promises, just say that if there's any chance of you getting past this then she would have to do X and you would decide from there. Understand that she is likely not to accept those conditions and may try to negotiate or simply move forward. (at that point go back to plan A)

but essentially what you are doing now is keeping yourself in limbo, you keep setting yourself up for disappointment- so either make clear what you want if want R, or just keep moving on and stop playing with fire


----------



## Gabriel

Almostrecovered said:


> Sham for a real and proper R you basically have to have your wife practically beg you for it. From what you've said she has shown some cracks but I seriously doubt that she is the type of person willing to take on 100% blame of anything. As such, this game you're playing of sending mixed signals is more likely screwing up your mind more than hers.
> 
> you really have to pick a path imo-
> 
> A) continue with divorce, stop the hanging out and such, be friendly but not friends. Have a good life without the worry of a wife cheating on you, maybe find someone else who is deserving of such a great guy like and what you have to offer her. (and ride off into the sunset)
> 
> B) lay the cards out on the table- tell her that before the divorce she would have to do X (x being your conditions, you know what that is, so no point in me telling you) if she has the desire to R. Don't make promises, just say that if there's any chance of you getting past this then she would have to do X and you would decide from there. Understand that she is likely not to accept those conditions and may try to negotiate or simply move forward. (at that point go back to plan A)
> 
> but essentially what you are doing now is keeping yourself in limbo, you keep setting yourself up for disappointment- so either make clear what you want if want R, or just keep moving on and stop playing with fire


:iagree::iagree:

This is exactly correct. You are just stringing this thing out forever, looking for little changes in her. This above advice is the only way you will get out of limbo one way or another. My guess is if you tried B, she would give in to small elements of it, trying to keep you under her spell. At that point, you would have to just cut bait. She really isn't good for you right now, at all.


----------



## Chaparral

Almostrecovered said:


> Sham for a real and proper R you basically have to have your wife practically beg you for it. From what you've said she has shown some cracks but I seriously doubt that she is the type of person willing to take on 100% blame of anything. As such, this game you're playing of sending mixed signals is more likely screwing up your mind more than hers.
> 
> you really have to pick a path imo-
> 
> A) continue with divorce, stop the hanging out and such, be friendly but not friends. Have a good life without the worry of a wife cheating on you, maybe find someone else who is deserving of such a great guy like and what you have to offer her. (and ride off into the sunset)
> 
> B) lay the cards out on the table- tell her that before the divorce she would have to do X (x being your conditions, you know what that is, so no point in me telling you) if she has the desire to R. Don't make promises, just say that if there's any chance of you getting past this then she would have to do X and you would decide from there. Understand that she is likely not to accept those conditions and may try to negotiate or simply move forward. (at that point go back to plan A)
> 
> but essentially what you are doing now is keeping yourself in limbo, you keep setting yourself up for disappointment- so either make clear what you want if want R, or just keep moving on and stop playing with fire


:iagree::scratchhead:

I think I agree. 

However "I'm just letting the door stay open a crack and seeing what she does at this point. , " 


If I'm correct your wife has been looking at a door that's locked, bolted and securely padlocked. I don't think she has seen any chance for any kind of reconcilliation. She has been slammed here for not apologizing, not being remorseful, not begging.

I doubt she sees the point of doing any of that. With no upside and the downside of just being rejected and further embarassed, she may just be trudging unhappily to divorce.

Have you made it clear there is a crack in the door?


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> :iagree::scratchhead:
> 
> I think I agree.
> 
> However "I'm just letting the door stay open a crack and seeing what she does at this point. , "
> 
> 
> If I'm correct your wife has been looking at a door that's locked, bolted and securely padlocked. I don't think she has seen any chance for any kind of reconcilliation. She has been slammed here for not apologizing, not being remorseful, not begging.
> 
> I doubt she sees the point of doing any of that. With no upside and the downside of just being rejected and further embarassed, she may just be trudging unhappily to divorce.
> 
> Have you made it clear there is a crack in the door?




No, not explicitly. Probably neither of us wants to say it out loud I guess. But there's been a little hinting at the corners. After this week I'll decide if I still feel like opening the door any further...if I do and it feels right, I'll sack up and bring it up as something she can fix if she wants to, but it has to come from her. What's she gonna do, say no let's get a divorce? Okay.

And yes, she was smacked down so hard when I left that (when I didn't come back after a few days to talk) she assumed there was no chance. I left without a word, there were papers on the table, a week later I blew up the OM, and all was pretty clear to her that I was pissed, had taken a stand and wasn't coming back begging. So that's why I've cracked the door a little lately, to let her know that I'm available to talk about what happened between us.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> No, not explicitly. Probably neither of us wants to say it out loud I guess. But there's been a little hinting at the corners. After this week I'll decide if I still feel like opening the door any further...if I do and it feels right, I'll sack up and bring it up as something she can fix if she wants to, but it has to come from her. What's she gonna do, say no let's get a divorce? Okay.
> 
> And yes, she was smacked down so hard when I left that (when I didn't come back after a few days to talk) she assumed there was no chance. I left without a word, there were papers on the table, a week later I blew up the OM, and all was pretty clear to her that I was pissed, had taken a stand and wasn't coming back begging. So that's why I've cracked the door a little lately, to let her know that I'm available to talk about what happened between us.



Well ..... if it were me I probably woudn't get the hint. If it were my wife she just might..........since she reinterprets most of what I say LOL :rofl:


----------



## F-102

So Sham, if I'm correct, you're not looking for R, you're looking for closure?


----------



## Saffron

Had to pop over from the infidelity thread to see how you were doing Shamwow, seems like you're doing well . . . so that's good. 

Reading your posts and it's hard to tell what you do want from your wife. If you want to R it's okay to offer. However, you can be clear with her that it doesn't mean you will be able to. When I first agreed to attempt R with my husband after his affair, I was very clear I'd try but there was no guarantees. Perhaps you're still trying to decide if you even want to attempt R, which is fine, take your time.

Good luck and I hope you get what _you_ want.


----------



## Idun

I agree with others that if R is even possible for you, SHE has to make a MUCH bigger effort. She seems to be trying to reel you in with her feminine wiles, a little bit of honesty, and a lot of victimizing herself and blameshifting. 

To DESERVE you back, she really does need to apologize sincerely, repent, accept full responsibility, BEG for forgiveness, and offer you a fresh start with her where she's totally transparent, preferably has a new job with next to no travel, full access to her phone emails facebook etc etc. to establish trust. I would definitely not sleep with her untill you have some kind of agreement as to what you both want and she has made a decent effort. PLUS I would make marriage counselling part of the deal after she has fulfilled all other requirements.

*If you don't EXPECT at least this, she will NOT Respect you now any more than she did before, and the same problems will arise again! You really can't settle for less on her part.*

Also, if you're actually considering R I think you should still be spying on her. You want to gauge how honest she is really being so you don't get more heartbreak. It's possible she just wants you back for a little bit to help her out financially, and then dump YOU (she had planned to dump you for ages remember?). She might just be playing with your emotions while still sexting other men. Might be bagging you out to everyone else (the toxic friends) etc. The biggest thing you need from her before you can R is RESPECT and real honesty. Her actions need to prove this not just her words (which is why you need to spy, because she might just be lying to get you back for financial means for example).

Use your brain AND your heart.


----------



## sh0t

I agree with chapparal and some others. Some posters are seeing far too much red.

She's doing it the only way she knows how. Your wife has zero practice at prostrating herself for forgiveness, so she doesn't know what to do. 

She's not the weak willed type, she's a pretty strong woman, so her pride is going to involved.

Also, she wants Sham to lead her there. She's seeing the signs of a new Sham and she wants to experience it, from a romantic POV, instead of in the business-like manner of divorce proceedings.

You can still have your D processing while trying for R. It puts you in a position of power, if anything.

And turning down the free nookie is just self-destructive. You are in little danger of regressing because of sex, you have a solid support venue(here), a lawyer on standby giving advice, a new place, your business, etc. You have many tools to prevent you from doing anything harmful(to you).

Even if you divorce your wife, your current situation can teach you a MAJOR lesson in how to deal with women. Business-like in one corner, passionate in the other. If you can screw your maybe-ex, while keeping the business-like persona strong with regards to the divorce proceedings, etc, you will score big time. That's EXACTLY the kind of mentality required in the modern dating landscape, especially if you want to descend into some of the more competitive venues.

If for no other reason than the practice, you should screw your ex. I've been in your corner since your first post Sham, and you've made me proud. I come from a different angle than the average poster, but I agree with chapparal and some others. 

The usual lubby-dubby paths to R you read about on here do not apply to your wife. They are far too Disney. Your wife is a smart, aggressive woman. She is not going to respond to that marriage builders crap. Remember how you ended up here? 

Unapologetically take that ****, and don't wait for to suggest another hang-out either. Pretend she's a new woman, and 'start over' and get that.

If it doesn't work, oh well, keep on with the divorce.

If you get lucky, you might keep your ex-wife as a friend-with-benefits or get your wife back.


----------



## Dadof3

Something strangely logical and sensical about what Sh0t says. I happen to agree with him. Not to mention, more Alpha than you've been.

You shoulda taken her at the opportunity, then been Mr. Business. You ARE still married, I might point out. You don't have to be her puppy dog cause of it. Play it your way, not hers.

go Sham, go


----------



## Shamwow

Sh0t - you speak a lot of truth. I really wanted to show her who's boss for a minute there. But I didn't have a condom, and she hasn't been tested since OM and who knows maybe hs douche. Nuff said...

Now she's gone for a week with people who will build her up for behaving badly, praise her for "standing up for herself" and "going after her own happiness".. Lord only knows what they'll do to try to cheer her up.

If the situation arises, who knows. But I have a sudden feeling we're on a bee line for D the second she gets back. Just a feeling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

Shamwow said:


> Sh0t - you speak a lot of truth. I really wanted to show her who's boss for a minute there. But I didn't have a condom. Nuff said...
> 
> Now she's gone for a week with people who will build her up for behaving badly, praise her for "standing up for herself" and "going after her own happiness".. Lord only knows what they'll do to try to cheer her up.
> 
> If the situation arises, who knows. But I have a sudden feeling we're on a bee line for D the second she gets back. Just a feeling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From what you describe of her toxic friends, I would say that will probably be the case, just like the guy whom you thought was a friend of the marriage but turned out to be cheering her on in her cheating. Seems like a forgone conclusion that your marriage was inevitably doomed due in part, from the work environment where her coworkers enable and facilitate affairs. You were probably not worried before because you thought your WW was not that type of girl and could withstand the peer pressure.


----------



## Shamwow

Yep. That about sums it up.


----------



## Shamwow

She's not injured and vulnerable anymore. She's out in the world. And I'm divorcing her, so why not do whatever she pleases?

Yes, she was really nice the other night, and it honestly felt good to get a dose of comfort, however fake. And hell, she keeps texting me about baseball tonight (not responding). Cards win, btw.

And then about there's an offer on the house. It's for a third what we paid for the place. Beautiful house going out for a pittance. Either way, her freedom is secured if that house sells right away on a short sell, we're out cheap and she can go get her own place and start over. She needs to be divorced before the paperwork can go through, to prove hardship. After this week, she will most likely be wanting to wrap 'er up as fast as possible. So I'd better be prepared.

Then she called tonight. For no reason. I shouldn't even have answered. She was just gabbing about how beautiful it is out there, and how it almost feels like a vacation, except for the work. Oh you should see the suites they put us up in. And the Cardinals, and how she talked to her folks, and and and. I didn't say much. I finally just said glad you're enjoying yourself. I gotta go. Brief pause. Then at the same time I said "Goodbye" and she said "Peace out brother". Hung up. Yes, she was clearly drinking. Thought that was some bs.


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> So Sham, if I'm correct, you're not looking for R, you're looking for closure?


3 out of 4 days, yeah. Then I have reminiscent thoughts of R. Then back to closure for a few more days. It sucks. But I guess I should look at the ratio there and try to take it to heart.


----------



## Gabriel

Yeah, don't answer the calls anymore, especially late in the evening. She is looking for a way to control you, so that when you guys part ways for good, she will have regained some self respect. That is all this is about.


----------



## crossbar

"Peace out Brother"?!?! Really?

What, you're REALLY good friend now? This chick is delusional!!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

next you leave after visiting she will give you a fist bump


----------



## Thehusband2

Hey sham hope things r getting better for you as time goes by!!!
I have a technical question for you. I am a bit suspicious of my wife and want to check iphone texts especially one deleted sat night. Tried plugging in her iphone and pressing backup but no text message backup file was produced.... Any idea why? Im not a tech wizard but thought all this required was to backup her phone. We both have iphone me 4 and hers is 3g.... The back up did produce a file but inside it wasnt that one with all the texts in between that other non legible stuff
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thehusband2 said:


> Hey sham hope things r getting better for you as time goes by!!!
> I have a technical question for you. I am a bit suspicious of my wife and want to check iphone texts especially one deleted sat night. Tried plugging in her iphone and pressing backup but no text message backup file was produced.... Any idea why? Im not a tech wizard but thought all this required was to backup her phone. We both have iphone me 4 and hers is 3g.... The back up did produce a file but inside it wasnt that one with all the texts in between that other non legible stuff
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How to Access and Read the iPhone SMS Text Message Backup Files

or you can get this program instead

iPhone Backup Extractor for Windows and Mac


----------



## Thehusband2

Almostrecovered said:


> How to Access and Read the iPhone SMS Text Message Backup Files
> 
> or you can get this program instead
> 
> iPhone Backup Extractor for Windows and Mac


Thanks but i think wife would notice this on our cpu!!! Sorting through the backfile although not as eAsy would keep this stealth. Its just when i plugged her phone while she was in bathrroom and pressed backup.... The file with texts was NOT produced ... Any cpu/iphone experts out there????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thehusband2 said:


> Thanks but i think wife would notice this on our cpu!!! Sorting through the backfile although not as eAsy would keep this stealth. Its just when i plugged her phone while she was in bathrroom and pressed backup.... The file with texts was NOT produced ... Any cpu/iphone experts out there????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


that's why I gave you the first link it tells you where the files go on different OS or mac or PC


----------



## Thehusband2

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

The husband2 - not sure what details you already have...but the file you want is named:

"3d0d7e5fb2ce288813306e4d4636395e047a3d28"

It's in a folder called:
[0a06be405552d7d5f7baa38d98795552ef981788]

Within the MobileSync folder on the computer after a backup as been run...


----------



## Almostrecovered

lets start from the top-

1) what type of computer did you sync the phone with?
2) what OS are you using?
3) does she normally sync her phone to that computer and do you have itunes installed on it?


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> next you leave after visiting she will give you a fist bump


Totally. Maybe we can watch Dexter, make prank calls and then give each other noogies.


----------



## Thehusband2

Thanks yes i was looking in mobile sync folder and there was a new colder creayed dated the 17th. It had a bunch of files just not that one... I was playing around with my new i phone yesterday to learn how to quickly backup, find file, then copy and paste into email to review at work.... Everything went accordinfg to plan but file wasnt produced i also noticed that when backing up my phone the little status bar indicating progress of bu show something like 1of 4 then 2 of 4 etc... Whereas with wifes, it just said "backing" up and then finished but i didnt see the bar filling up as the back up proceeded... Any reason why a backup wouldnt work????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Totally. Maybe we can watch Dexter, make prank calls and then give each other noogies.


I'll bring the silly string and the bong!


----------



## Thehusband2

Almostrecovered said:


> lets start from the top-
> 
> 1) what type of computer did you sync the phone with?
> 2) what OS are you using?
> 3) does she normally sync her phone to that computer and do you have itunes installed on it?


Pc acer
Windows 7
She doesnt ever sync phone!!! I just installed itunes friday after getting my iphone 4
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thehusband2 said:


> Thanks yes i was looking in mobile sync folder and there was a new colder creayed dated the 17th. It had a bunch of files just not that one... I was playing around with my new i phone yesterday to learn how to quickly backup, find file, then copy and paste into email to review at work.... Everything went accordinfg to plan but file wasnt produced i also noticed that when backing up my phone the little status bar indicating progress of bu show something like 1of 4 then 2 of 4 etc... Whereas with wifes, it just said "backing" up and then finished but i didnt see the bar filling up as the back up proceeded... Any reason why a backup wouldnt work????
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


itunes is notoriously glitchy 
try updating itunes and resyncing


----------



## pgk453

Don't listen to any attorney that says you can't be nice. Take the high road and you will feel better in the long run. After 6 years of divorce I still hurt but it does get better. Love doesn't have to end ... relationships just change.


----------



## Dadof3

Sham - your relationship with your W is starting to remind me of a Bro/Sis / BFF relationship. I don't think thats how you want to come across to her. Just another 2 cents for what they aren't worth!


----------



## Shamwow

I know Dad, not digging it. I really don't think that's how I came across to her, probably just misjudged how she's been coming off to me.

That said, her sign off last night was a jab.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thehusband2 said:


> Pc acer
> Windows 7
> *She doesnt ever sync phone!!! I just installed itunes friday after getting my iphone 4*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



ah, somehow missed this post as it was the last on the page

so you need to assign the phone to the itunes program you installed first- which may be the problem, it will ask for her itunes account email and pasword


----------



## Thehusband2

Almostrecovered said:


> itunes is notoriously glitchy
> try updating itunes and resyncing


Ok good to know... Should i be syncing or backing up??? Im scared to sync because i think my comtacts would load on her phone wouldnt they?? I tried test backing up my phone and everything worked fine. I even deleted texts and they still showed up in the file!!!

When i plugged wifes phone in a msg popped up asking if i wanted to update her iphones software ... Should this matter??? I just selected no and proceeded to backup!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thehusband2 said:


> Ok good to know... Should i be syncing or backing up??? Im scared to sync because i think my comtacts would load on her phone wouldnt they?? I tried test backing up my phone and everything worked fine. I even deleted texts and they still showed up in the file!!!
> 
> When i plugged wifes phone in a msg popped up asking if i wanted to update her iphones software ... Should this matter??? I just selected no and proceeded to backup!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



the itunes program needs to recognize whose phone is whose, thus you need to tell it first when doing the first sync/backup


----------



## Thehusband2

Almostrecovered said:


> ah, somehow missed this post as it was the last on the page
> 
> so you need to assign the phone to the itunes program you installed first- which may be the problem, it will ask for her itunes account email and pasword


Well on our old cpu that was all done and itunes does recognize her phone as xxx 's iphone
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Thehusband2 said:


> Well on our old cpu that was all done and itunes does recognize her phone as xxx 's iphone
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



then it shouldn't mess up your contacts with her contacts

just plug it in and do a sync, it's fine if it updates her apps and such, you can just say it needs to be done


----------



## Almostrecovered

plus do know that two back up files are created for the 2 phones, so it's import to figure out which backup is your and which is hers when you search


----------



## Thehusband2

Almostrecovered said:


> plus do know that two back up files are created for the 2 phones, so it's import to figure out which backup is your and which is hers when you search


Thats why i thought i had it! I went into the monilesync/backup folder and sure enough 2 folders today agter backup!!!! Yay i thought! Went into folder looking for it and nada... Thats what has me stumped
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

the file could be "hidden". To unhide - you'll need to go into the explorer file settings section and choose "unhide" contents.


----------



## Shamwow

Thehusband2 said:


> Thats why i thought i had it! I went into the monilesync/backup folder and sure enough 2 folders today agter backup!!!! Yay i thought! Went into folder looking for it and nada... Thats what has me stumped
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


On my Win 7 PC I just went to C:/Users/[username]/AppData/Roaming/Apple Computer/MobileSync/Backup/and then the first of two folders. In there was the file:
"3d0d7e5fb2ce288813306e4d4636395e047a3d28"

That's the one. If you don't see it on yours, I'm not sure what to tell ya, besides updatingiTunes and resyncing her phone. Good luck, you'll get it squared away soon enough.

Try searching your entire C drive for "3d0d7e5"...on mine it only brings up the one file, and it's there.


----------



## eagleclaw

Shamwow, I think her "JAB" was because you went home and didn't nail her which she was hoping for. She's being passive aggressive and calling you out for it without calling you out for it.

Women don't like being snubbed. Particulary women who have gained a few pounds, been slighted by other guys recently, and now got slighted by old faithful.

She's a little hurt and strategically striking back. Good on you.

I'm in the camp that thinks next time you go over there with condoms, you nail her good, on your terms, and have your way with her. Introduce her to the new Sham - and definately push the boundry and do something with/to her that you have never done and is pushing the envelope a bit. Insert favorite fetish/fantasy here.


----------



## NotLikeYou

eagleclaw said:


> I'm in the camp that thinks next time you go over there with condoms, you nail her good, on your terms, and have your way with her. Introduce her to the new Sham - and definately push the boundry and do something with/to her that you have never done and is pushing the envelope a bit. Insert favorite fetish/fantasy here.


I'm in the camp that is wondering why, exactly, you are still even GOING over there? If you (still) want to divorce her, it makes no sense to go hang out with her. If you have changed your mind and want to reconcile with her, then you might ought to declare it here, so that the advice people are giving you can change accordingly. If you are looking for closure, at this point, then you need to talk to your therapist about low self esteem.

I'm sure that you walking out on her unstated offer of sex the other night messed with her badly, and so on, and so forth, add drama here, two scoops of over-analysis coming right up.

The problem is, it has messed with you at least as badly, which you don't need.

The person who cares less about a relationship is in the driver's seat. I maintain that you are not being "alpha" or anything else beneficial *TO YOU*, by putting yourself in close contact with her. You stoically take the high road. She energetically takes the kidney shot. She scores points, reaffirms her worldview that you're a punching bag, unworthy of respect. You wander off, wondering why you just got sucker punched again, swearing "next week, I'll do better."

You may not love her, but you still care about her, *REALLY A LOT.* That makes you vulnerable to the hurts she inflicts on you, as evidenced by your posts. 

I don't mean to be a d1ck here, but how much of a glutton for punishment are you, man?


----------



## Shamwow

NotLikeYou said:


> If you have changed your mind and want to reconcile with her, then you might ought to declare it here, so that the advice people are giving you can change accordingly. If you are looking for closure, at this point, then you need to talk to your therapist about low self esteem.


Regarding feelings of R. I have. Most recently Page 57, first post.

Regarding low self-esteem and therapist, I have been for 2 months. Most of the time I'm fine, but he's working with my need to still feel compassion for her, and how this negatively affects me.



> I don't mean to be a d1ck here, but how much of a glutton for punishment are you, man?


Have you read my thread?  I'm a *classic* glutton for punishment who recently did something about it, and has had some hiccups along the way.

Anyway, not really worth elaborating on, per my next post coming in a minute here:


----------



## NotLikeYou

Well.......

"Closure 3 out of 4 days, then reminiscent thoughts of R, then back to closure for a few more days" isn't quite what I meant by determining a desired outcome. That is limbo-dancing on your part.

In all seriousness, I am glad to hear that your therapist is aware of the compassion problem, and is addressing it with you. I feel for you, man. I really do. But I will continue to follow your exploits, and wince at the wounds.


----------



## Shamwow

And the pendulum swings again, let's say for the last time.

I was right about my gut feeling last night. W forwarded emails from the realtor regarding the offer on the house. He mentions it would be helpful with the bank if the divorce was finalized, in order to prove her hardship.

I get an email from her saying : “Hey - Can we split belongings this week and finalize? Thanks!”.

I reply "Doubtful."

Then I get “Take whatever you want.”

I respond “Charming. Enjoy _____(where she’s working this week).”

She says “Wtf does that mean?”

I say “Just said it was charming. And to enjoy _______.”

She comes back with “I need you to sign on this divorce now! So whatever you want, I’ll likely sign. Go for it!!!”. I don’t respond.

Then “This listing everything down to towels is silly. Take it all but anything from my mom, my computer, iPad, phone and backup drive. K? It’s all yours. Let’s just sign.”. I don’t respond.

Then “I’m already getting you out of any house s**t. Taking the hit all on my own. The least you can do is take all our belongings.”

I disregard all of my first mental responses (“Drop the martyr kick, W. You’re not getting me out of anything with the house, you got yourself into it”…or...”The least I can do would be nothing. The ‘most’ I can do would be do everything in the next week for you because the realtor wants to check a box on the bank form”…or...“F*** you.”). So yeah, I waited a while.

Look, I realize she needs to do this deal with the house…and while I’ve entertained her nicer overtures as of late, I have not in any way NOT moved forward with the divorce. Hell, her attorney is the one that requested an indefinite extension of proceedings, on her request. Now she's trying to put this on her timeline to suit her immediate needs...while seeming to suggest that I'm dragging my feet?

So I finally responded “Regarding your emails...I’m aware we got an offer on the house 12 hours ago. Please realize that you just asked me to empty the house for you, fill out all the asset/property paperwork and file everything with the court during the next work week, while you’re gone. Sorry, but no. I’ll do what I can, and let you know when I need you to sign something.”

Her response was “I never asked you to empty the house. You must have misunderstood.” Of course, she did ask that. But who’s keeping track…

Guess being nicer to her has not paid off. And while there were some nice exchanges, I think I have to accept what I’ve gotten from her is all the closure she’s capable of providing. It’s more than I thought I’d get, to be honest.

At least I know where she stands now. 

So I guess that about wraps ‘er up, huh folks?

All that said, I have already done most of what she's asking - weeks ago. I already have my version of the agreement written out the way I see it (it’s been in the works for while), and I’ll have my attorney write it up without her input I guess. If possible, the agreement will be ready when she comes home. She will not be happy about the (now close to 6k) of her affair expenses that I’ll be taking off my share of the debt and adding to hers.

As for the stuff in the house, funny thing is I also want pretty much nothing. It’s mostly all tied to us, her, her family, our travels, holiday stuff, camping stuff, good times, etc. I may take the camping stuff. And a couch or a couple chairs. And the food processor. And the Wustaf knives. But that about does it. We can sell the rest and split the money.

Sigh…end of an era.


----------



## Shamwow

NotLikeYou said:


> Well.......
> 
> "Closure 3 out of 4 days, then reminiscent thoughts of R, then back to closure for a few more days" isn't quite what I meant by determining a desired outcome. That is limbo-dancing on your part.


Ah, You didn't ask if I'd determined a desired outcome...if that's the question, no I hadn't. Probably why I still have a thread 6 1/2 weeks after leaving W with divorce papers.


----------



## Gabriel

Congrats on the closure. Looks like the road is clear now. Once this is done you can focus on something OTHER than your stbxw.


----------



## Dadof3

quite interesting, Sham, that in short-selling the house - she'll take the financial hit - declare bankruptcy to pass this burden on to the "rest of us" - all because she wondered if there could be something for DBag McGee. Talk about never having experienced REAL consequences! I truly hope she gets a hard nosed judge who can see through this BS!


----------



## Shamwow

Gabriel said:


> Congrats on the closure. Looks like the road is clear now. Once this is done you can focus on something OTHER than your stbxw.


True...true. Thanks.


----------



## krismimo

Ok sorry If I'm having a slow moment, so that means what now? Your going to sign off on the house? Or you are sigining off on the house but shes not going to like it?  I don't know much about housing so sorry for being redundant. And thank you god you didn't sleep wiith her I say that only because I dont think you would have felt so hot after the fact. I think her Ve jay jay would have tried to eat you alive whole, like little shop of horrors Feed me seymore feed me!!!!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

if it's any consolation sham, I'd date you if I was gay and you were gay and I knew who you were in real life and if I wasn't married and you changed to being a Phillies fan


----------



## piqued

Shamwow said:


> And the pendulum swings again, let's say for the last time.



Sham, sorry 'bout this. I know you have residual feelings for your wife, but you need a 2x4 to your head some times.

As I've mentioned at different points in this thread, your wife is what she is. And what she is is a master manipulator. You are in her sights only when it benefits HER for you to be there. When anything else tickles her fancy (OM, hotel guy, HS dude, "sorting herself out", sexting, playing the victim, financial escape (house sale) she drops you like a hot potato. She's been doing this for quite some time. Keeping you around to pay the bills while she searches for an exit strategy. Withholds sex from you (her husband) because her libido is being satiated through sexting, pic sharing, and finally f**king someone else.

OK, here comes the 2x4...BANG...what the hell is it gonna take for you to recognize that you are not her lover, not the love of her life, not her life partner, and certainly not her friend? She uses you, hurts you, drops you....before the affair, during the affair, and now after the affair. To use your line "rinse and repeat". C'mon. Sure, you say you have closure now and oh now you know better, but that's what you said after the last frying pan made contact with your skull last week. Next thing you're over there holding hands and partaking in mind games. So, why is this gonna be different, Sham? And that is a question you have to answer to yourself for yourself. What's going to happen when she comes home next week (or next month) and she needs/wants you around for something? What's going to happen when you're invited over, or when she is playing nice and wetting your appetite again?

It's over, it's been over, and you keep allowing yourself to be used. If you are Sham 2.0 and want an R then own up to it, give her your conditions and MAKE NO PROMISES. Figuratively speaking, she has to lick the dirt off your feet to get you back, instead you are giving signals all she has to do is shoo a fly away from your shoulder.

If you want R, tell her the terms. 95% liklihood she won't agree; and even if she does after the first week she'd try and move the goalpost.

I'm sorry you love her; that is evident. I'm sorry this part of life hasn't been fair because you seem like a good, stand-up guy. But, you've been f&*ked, and you keep bending over for more. It is over, you just keep trying to convince yourself it might not be....sort of like in dumb and dumber where JC goes "so you're saying I've got a chance."

Damn, I like you Sham, and don't mean to be harsh. But you need that 2x4, even if you think this is all stuff you already know you still need it because your emotions keep playing tricks on you. Or, more succintly, your wife keeps playing tricks with your emotions.

Good luck, but GET OUT!


----------



## krismimo

Although I don't agree with everything PQ has said I do agree with a lot of it.....:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Shamwow

krismimo said:


> Although I don't agree with everything PQ has said I do agree with a lot of it.....:iagree::iagree::iagree:


 Me too. When will I ever learn? Hopefully NOW, now that she has made it clear she just wants to sign and be done.

I guess this may be the point where I will just have to tell her not to contact me anymore. It's not about posturing anymore, it's about giving myself the divorce that I said I wanted, and as a result doing the same for her.

Can I promise anything to you guys when it comes to my heart? Clearly not. I could for her though...that's why I've had so much trouble letting go.

Yes, I've had some episodes with her recently, and it has messed with my head. But I know she's all screwed up too. The difference is I'm doing something about it for myself, as roundabout as it may seem from my updates here. I'm in the best shape I've been in since I was 19, I'm in therapy dealing with self-esteem and nice guy issues that clearly should have been addressed years ago, I'm standing up for myself by leaving and filing, and while I secretly pined for a Disney ending, it was not realistic. I've always known that. Doesn't make it any easier to ignore. I ignored her for 3 straight weeks when I left, it was liberating. And the hardest thing I've ever done (or probably will do in my lifetime again - geez I hope so). It physically pained me...I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about.

So we move forward as efficiently as possible with the divorce now. R be damned, it's not in the cards, at least not with a hard-headed stubborn ______ (you guys throw in whatever you want here) like her. She would go to her grave before owning her actions. And she very well may. Not to over-dramatize, but I suspect she will drink her way through what should be her recovery period, not solve anything for herself, be used and abused by a bunch of rejects who can talk their way into her pants over the next few years, and will never seek therapy until she hits bottom. And then it'll probably be court ordered. Then she'll start looking for a guy remarkably similar to me. I don't wish these things for her. I really don't. You know I don't.

My point is regardless of how many 2x4's I will require to the head in the future (thanks btw), I'm rally trying to take it on myself and deal with it, slipups and all. Yes she'll be back this weekend...for 6 days...I think I should be out of town for most of that. I have to try to get back to the place I was when I left her (minus the anger and insanity) and just know I'm doing the right things...


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

Yes. You need to begin the process of excising her from your life.


----------



## Shamwow

krismimo said:


> Ok sorry If I'm having a slow moment, so that means what now? Your going to sign off on the house? Or you are sigining off on the house but shes not going to like it?  I don't know much about housing so sorry for being redundant. And thank you god you didn't sleep wiith her I say that only because I dont think you would have felt so hot after the fact. I think her Ve jay jay would have tried to eat you alive whole, like little shop of horrors Feed me seymore feed me!!!!!


Hey Kris - she's referring to signing off on the divorce, not the house (though I'll have to sign off on that too). So that means fast track to D town.

And as much as I could've nailed her through the wall the other night...I agree with you...just imagine if I had, and it was good. And then she leaves town and emails 2 days later "Can we split assets and finalize this week? Thanks!". Wow, if that had happened this thread would go another hundred pages in a day, mostly from me.


----------



## Dadof3

Start by getting a new phone number and only giving it to your lawyer. New email addresses. Don't access the old email / phone numbers again. That will help you build up your fortifications.


----------



## Shamwow

And I still don't regret Friday night. May not have been smart, but it was one last hurrah to remember what having a good night with her felt like. Even if it was fake, so be it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> And I still don't regret Friday night. May not have been smart, but it was one last hurrah to remember what having a good night with her felt like. Even if it was fake, so be it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



What was fake about it ? Can you explain? It just seems to me that she's going along with what you have been telling her you wanted all along. Reconcilling was never on the table. Realtor says this is what's in your best interest. What did you think she was going to do? You told her you wanted a divorce, never discussed anything else as far as I've read and shes going along with you. 

She may have wanted something else but didn't have any hope or just didn't have the guts to approach you with it. It hasn't sounded like you have been approachable at all. Unless there are things you've left out.


----------



## krismimo

OHH ok thanks for clerifying Sham. And although I know it is easier said than done, I do respect what you said, this is your life and how you feel how you have to resolve what is going on between you andher so be it. I think the concern is having that door open too long and getting hurt all over again, but sometimes through hurt we learn weather if it is good or bad we learn something.


----------



## krismimo

And what we ALL have to understand (Althought sometimes we see ourselves banging our heads aganist out desks, computers, etc) is that this is YOUR journey, your process your life. I hope you go the closure you needed and slowly but surely move on, day by day. It is hard when were still in lo ve with the person we want them to be vs the reality of what they become. It sucks when Love is not enough. SO hang in there, btw are you taking some personal days off while she is away? I was just curious.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> What was fake about it ? Can you explain? It just seems to me that she's going along with what you have been telling her you wanted all along. Reconcilling was never on the table. Realtor says this is what's in your best interest. What did you think she was going to do? You told her you wanted a divorce, never discussed anything else as far as I've read and shes going along with you.
> 
> She may have wanted something else but didn't have any hope or just didn't have the guts to approach you with it. It hasn't sounded like you have been approachable at all. Unless there are things you've left out.


I mean fake as even though it felt normal again that night we both knew it wasn't.

Of course there are things I've left out, hard to get every detail in here. 

About a week and a half ago (when she was decrying the stress and financial turmoil...banks calling her, her work, etc) I told her I really wish she had been real with me when the chips were down. If she had we wouldn't be here right now...we'd be in Cozumel "making it work". Told her it wasn't her fault for getting swept up in a bs fantasy, but how she handled it was. Told her I wanted to fix this...why didn't she?

She said she was so confused she couldn't fix anything, sorry. (I think I did mention that exchange on the forum? I don't even know anymore).

Later in response to that I told told her that I for one thought she still could fix it, but it wouldn't be easy and it would have to come from her. That when I left it was because I had to, not because I wanted to. Told her that I wanted to come back in the days and weeks after I left, but that she gave me nothing but anger and insults, so I had nothing to respond to. And that she can talk to me now if she wants to.

And she did talk to me...about things...which was good. But she didn't say "thought about what you said, and i wanna fix things. What can I do to fix it?"

Then we would've been in business...but she couldn't do it (or didn't want to). But you're right...R was never officially on the table. I gave her slack hoping she would come in the rest of the way and tell me she wanted that. She either didn't or was too afraid to face the uphill battle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## piqued

chapparal said:


> What was fake about it ? Can you explain? It just seems to me that she's going along with what you have been telling her you wanted all along. Reconcilling was never on the table. Realtor says this is what's in *your best interest*. What did you think she was going to do? You told her you wanted a divorce, never discussed anything else as far as I've read and shes going along with you.
> 
> She may have wanted something else but didn't have any hope or just didn't have the guts to approach you with it. It hasn't sounded like you have been approachable at all. Unless there are things you've left out.


The person whose interest is most closely linked to a final D and a quick sale is his wife. That is the point; at every turn her actions and inactions are all centered on her self-interest. Per se, there is nothing wrong with that. However, someone remotely interested in saving her marriage, repairing the damage she has caused, and rebonding with the man she loves will do things for a cause greater than herself - mainly her husband and her marriage. That is the ultimate tell in all of us. At every opportunity she has put herself first - in the marriage, in the affair, and in the aftermath.

Many excuses and rationalizations can be conjured to explain her actions, including Sham not giving her an opening or her only ceding to Sham's desires (D). However, that is what they are: rationalizations. If what she wanted was R she is smart enough (I think that is clear from the 100s of pages of Sham's saga) to realize that she holds the power here, meaning any possibility of R rests with her and what she does from here on out. I can't countenance the thought that she is just a confused, and wounded women who, if only Sham would give her an opening, a chance, would come clean with her sorrow and her desire to R.

No, she strings Sham along whenever Friends with Benefits or R seems to be in her interest, and the moment it appears it isn't Sham is nothing but an obstacle to be dealt with.

Perhaps you're right and I'm all wet, but given this woman's history I just don't buy your idea that Sham has not left her options and that she is obediently following Sham's lead to dissolve the marriage. Of course, that doesn't explain why she was plotting to leave the marriage and seeing a financial guy before she ever even embarked on the affair...


----------



## Chaparral

Well, I wish you the best of luck in everything. I've felt all the way along that you were hopeing (in the back of your mind maybe ) for reconcilliation. And if you were I'm sorry.

If this had happened to me I really don't know what I would do but I know it wouldn't be pretty.

Otoh, when she said she felt like she was on vacation it sounded like she was glad to be on the road because she had taken about all she could take. Still think the both of you should put your cards on the table and see what happens. I don't see how it could hurt any worse and both could move on however it goes down.

A freind of mine went through this a couple of years ago and I was worried he was becoming suicidal.
After a year he met youngr woman started dating and hasn't looked back. I suggest dating as soon as possible. It was like a light switch had been turned and he was back to normal.


----------



## golfergirl

I guess I'm missing something. Out of all the crap she's done, being up front about wanting divorce to show financial hardship to sell house quickly is the least mean thing she's done. It's shrewd and hard-nosed, but it's more up front than her other stunts she's pulled.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

golfergirl said:


> I guess I'm missing something. Out of all the crap she's done, being up front about wanting divorce to show financial hardship to sell house quickly is the least mean thing she's done. It's shrewd and hard-nosed, but it's more up front than her other stunts she's pulled.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely agree. An actual honest statement from her...I'm not mad at her at all for saying that. It's just a bummer that's all, considering there was some hope brewing in me. But you know what? I said the same thing to her by leaving her cold, w papers in Aug. So...c'est la vie, no?


----------



## alphaomega

Sham,

You do know that the best way to get over a woman is to....well....get over another one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## zsu234

I've been doing shortpays since 1994. You don't need a finalized divorce to initiate the paperwork with the servicer. These damn things take 6 -14 months to get approved anyway. I've got one right now that we started in june 2010. Go at your own pace, get what you want out of the **** and go as fast or as slow as you want.


----------



## Shamwow

zsu234 said:


> I've been doing shortpays since 1994. You don't need a finalized divorce to initiate the paperwork with the servicer. These damn things take 6 -14 months to get approved anyway. I've got one right now that we started in june 2010. Go at your own pace, get what you want out of the **** and go as fast or as slow as you want.


Thanks for the heads up. In this case it's a couple that wants to move in by the end of the year, sounds like maybe you buy/sell for business? Either way, it's good to know the bank doesn't need the D final to begin paperwork. And good to know where my W's head is at.

SMH...


----------



## uphillbattle

Atleast when it is over, you can go find a rebound and have a bit of fun.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Thanks for the heads up. In this case it's a couple that wants to move in by the end of the year, sounds like maybe you buy/sell for business? Either way, it's good to know the bank doesn't need the D final to begin paperwork. And good to know where my W's head is at.
> 
> SMH...


So call the realtor and get facts from him/her. Sounds like another conspiracy brewing. :scratchhead:


----------



## lordmayhem

Shamwow said:


> So we move forward as efficiently as possible with the divorce now. R be damned, it's not in the cards, at least not with a hard-headed stubborn ______ (you guys throw in whatever you want here) like her. She would go to her grave before owning her actions. And she very well may. Not to over-dramatize, but I suspect she will drink her way through what should be her recovery period, not solve anything for herself, be used and abused by a bunch of rejects who can talk their way into her pants over the next few years, and will never seek therapy until she hits bottom. And then it'll probably be court ordered. Then she'll start looking for a guy remarkably similar to me. I don't wish these things for her. I really don't. You know I don't.


Look, I'm all for R, heck I'm in R myself....but only under the right circumstances. The WS has to do the heavy lifting.

But all this stuff others have been telling you about leaving the door open a crack for her for R, has done nothing for you except get your hopes up, and keep you from detaching...in a sense, prolonging your suffering. 

Yes, you went dark after DDay, that's to be expected. But she didn't pursue you one single bit. All you got were jabs like "So it's war, huh?" etc. Absolutely no remorse on her part after DDay. Now you have your closure. Now you know she's broken, and you can't be the one to fix her. She has to hit rock bottom before she can even begin to realize that she needs help.


----------



## MrQuatto

Dadof3 said:


> Start by getting a new phone number and only giving it to your lawyer. New email addresses. Don't access the old email / phone numbers again. That will help you build up your fortifications.


:iagree:


Exactly, need to slow her down and deal on your terms. She wants speed, so then you need to get that she is soley responsible for the debt on the house in writting. Remember, this is the sneaky girl who slithered out of any work on the taxes, extended the finalization of the divorce, who now is screaming a tantrum cause things arent moving at her convenience. I'd put it all on my lawyer and let it all go through him from now on.

Q~


----------



## MrQuatto

lordmayhem said:


> Look, I'm all for R, heck I'm in R myself....but only under the right circumstances. The WS has to do the heavy lifting.
> 
> But all this stuff others have been telling you about leaving the door open a crack for her for R, has done nothing for you except get your hopes up, and keep you from detaching...in a sense, prolonging your suffering.
> 
> Yes, you went dark after DDay, that's to be expected. But she didn't pursue you one single bit. All you got were jabs like "So it's war, huh?" etc. Absolutely no remorse on her part after DDay. Now you have your closure. Now you know she's broken, and you can't be the one to fix her. She has to hit rock bottom before she can even begin to realize that she needs help.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

If she wasn't willing to give even the slightest attempt to discuss or work through what was OBVIOUSLY her massive mistake, then I don't see where R could have even been a possibility. Don't get me wrong Chap, i'm all for giving people a chance but you can't possibly notice a door is cracked open if you never walk up to it and LOOK!

It was quite apparent that she is of the "Busted, well guess that's that." camp and never really looked back. 

Q~


----------



## Dadof3

I actually wonder if she's determined that the D probably couldn't have come at a more convenient time, except this time, she gets to cut her losses.

I would go further say that her new adopted lifestyle - is good with a "friends with benefits" approach to whoever she fancies - including her STBXH - Sham. Sham - remember, she's not going to say faithful out on the road - if she manages, it'll be short term till she gets her groove back and looses the weight.

Sham: Get new cell number, new email address (close out your old one) - give ONLY to your lawyer and your clients, of course. Get yourself a new girlfriend, or at least start dating. 

Time to pronounce this relationship dead, time to finish filling out the paperwork. 

Sorry for you Sham, but glad for you too.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> I actually wonder if she's determined that the D probably couldn't have come at a more convenient time, except this time, she gets to cut her losses.
> 
> I would go further say that her new adopted lifestyle - is good with a "friends with benefits" approach to whoever she fancies - including her STBXH - Sham. Sham - remember, she's not going to say faithful out on the road - if she manages, it'll be short term till she gets her groove back and looses the weight.
> 
> Sham: Get new cell number, new email address (close out your old one) - give ONLY to your lawyer and your clients, of course. Get yourself a new girlfriend, or at least start dating.
> 
> Time to pronounce this relationship dead, time to finish filling out the paperwork.
> 
> Sorry for you Sham, but glad for you too.


Thanks Dad.

As far as the new cell number and email address...both are closely tied to my business, would have to inform hundreds of clients (current/previous/potential clients). So I'm not sure how easy that would be in the short term. What is the purpose? So stbxw can't contact me? Just curious...


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Thanks Dad.
> 
> As far as the new cell number and email address...both are closely tied to my business, would have to inform hundreds of clients (current/previous/potential clients). So I'm not sure how easy that would be in the short term. What is the purpose? So stbxw can't contact me? Just curious...


you could always have the number blocked


I think dad is merely stating that you only have business to conduct with her at this point and it can be done thru the lawyers as the bs contact she keeps doing is harmful to your goal.

It's obviously your call, I would just answer business related texts and ignore the rest


----------



## Dadof3

Yea. That and her toxic friends. If you are going to keep yourself from being drawn into her drama and FWB scenarios, you need to be unreachable. 

You are D are you not? If you are looking for a rug sweep, you are closer to that than anything else. She's not going to do the heavy lifting necessary for R. 

Its time to let go of this. I hate to say it, if I were in your shoes, I'd probably have the same difficulties, if not worse.

But, since I get to be a laptop gangster, lets say that her life needs to be completely handled by her from now on (no more helping her out of the tough spots she chose to be in).


----------



## golfergirl

I never did see her as the person who just didn't know how to make the first move or didn't see a crack in the door of R so couldn't humble herself for an apology.
It's her whole thought process. It's the core of her being. Do what she needs to make herself happy and deal with consequences later. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, but she never got the hang of the forgiveness part - just figures a come hither look, toss of the hair extensions and a, 'my bad - oops', will get her out of a lot.
I don't know her - I'm just guessing, but she seems to know how to look out for her. It's a nice quality when you use it as part of a team (her looking out for the two of you), but when loyalty switched and she used that shrewd tactic on looking out for number one (her), it's not so romantic anymore. 
That's my armchair analysis for the day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

"I don't know her - I'm just guessing, but she seems"


Sums up this whole thread.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> "I don't know her - I'm just guessing, but she seems"
> 
> 
> Sums up this whole thread.


Good point...however that statement has been said by me many times in the last four months too...Food for thought.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## golfergirl

Shamwow said:


> Good point...however that statement has been said by me many times in the last four months too...Food for thought.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


While none of us know her - if what's been said, texted etc. is accurate, actions do speak for themselves.
Qualities that make her a good businesswoman make her a b!tch of an adversary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Nice afternoon. Tried out my single legs a bit.

Walked down to a local restaurant/bar to finish typing up the rough agreement to send to my lawyer. Naturally, who's working but the same girl who I've had some fun flirting with the last few times I ran into her there (been a few weeks). Witty, quick, cute, and single. She spent most of two hours at my table, even sat down for like 20 minutes on her break. Lots of bs-ing and sarcasm flying both ways...good stuff.

I randomly said something like BTW I don't give my number out to stalkers, so don't even try. She rolled with it and dished it back...When I left she refused the tip, and then wrote her info on my receipt...

AND...

While I was chatting with her I got an email from another gal that I'm starting a work project with soon (she's 28, gorgeous, known her for years, and she just got a divorce). I had asked her if she wanted to get together to discuss any of the details before we got down to business. She said she was totally down for that, how about a work meeting w drinks? Whenever, she's flexible. Probably just work...but...

Happy Sham...down boy!



Anyway, nothing huge on the whole, but just the kind of afternoon I needed. Whatever helps me get to STBX-who?


----------



## Whip Morgan

Sham, thats some pretty awesome stuff to hear. Definitely strokes the ego if nothing else. 

Recently I thought you were re-engaging too much with the STBXwifey. Good to hear that you're stepping back. 

I have one thing I'm concerned about for you, Sham....How ya gonna handle it when them Cardinals get SMOKED by the Rangers? Good thing you can absorb all those tears you're going to cry. Just don't cry in front of these ladies...


----------



## joe kidd

Whip Morgan said:


> .How ya gonna handle it when them Cardinals get SMOKED by the Rangers? Good thing you can absorb all those tears you're going to cry. Just don't cry in front of these ladies...


Fiction. Never going to happen. Cards are a team of destiny!


----------



## Shamwow

Cards don't deserve it...but hey they didn't deserve the pennant or the playoffs either. So we shall see.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> Fiction. Never going to happen. Cards are a team of destiny!


Thanks jk! First person to support St. Lou so far...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

"Then “I’m already getting you out of any house s**t. Taking the hit all on my own. The least you can do is take all our belongings"

Is this going to be a big help to you? Sounds like it. Or is this some evil plan to manipulate you again? Not sure how this works.


----------



## F-102

chapparal said:


> "Then “I’m already getting you out of any house s**t. Taking the hit all on my own. The least you can do is take all our belongings"
> 
> Is this going to be a big help to you? Sounds like it. Or is this some evil plan to manipulate you again? Not sure how this works.


Sham, get everything IN WRITING before you engage in any of this.


----------



## Dadof3

Sham - glad to hear that you are exercising those singles legs again. 

I think that will help you move forward faster than anything else right now. Remember, your STBXW, everything she says / does with you has an ulterior motive. Its usually NOT for your benefit, unless its the S*X - which is temporary at best, and used against you later.

Detach..... detach.... detach....

We need to set you up in the Daye spa that Derrick Zoolander went to in the movie, except you won't be trained to kill the prime minister of claymation - I mean malaysia. you will be deprogrammed from STBX Sham-wife.

 Had to throw that in, sorry guess - I am a bit obnoxious, what can I say?


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> Sham, get everything IN WRITING before you engage in any of this.


All good, lawyer is writing things up. I won't take anything until it's agreed on...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Sham, in retrospect, I think your STBXW will look back some day and realize what a horrible mistake she made, but it will be too late.

You will be in Cozumel with your newest lady, having a good time!


----------



## F-102

Dadof3 said:


> Sham, in retrospect, I think your STBXW will look back some day and realize what a horrible mistake she made, but it will be too late.
> 
> You will be in Cozumel with your newest lady, having a good time!


And THEN will she be surrounded by the 50 smelly cats?


----------



## sh0t

I'm a Mets fan for the record. Padres, too. How bad dose my life suck? 

Golfergirl made a good point too.

Keep moving the D forward, you can R at ANY TIME, so there is nothing to really worry about, except losing your marriage home(meh).

You should bang your STBX, the waitress, AND that other girl. Don't get discouraged by her behavior, in fact get used to it because many women that are out in the dating world are like that. Your wife was always like that, you just never knew. 

Prior to this situation, did you think your wife could ever act the way she does, towards you especially? Few men ever do.

Because you have no kids, and your finances aren't going to be severely impacted, you have the potential to come out of this SO MUCH better off than you can imagine. You will go back out into the world with this experience under your belt.

Marriage is iffy, but the best thing I guy can do if his GF is asking for "time off" is to date around and restore his charm. 

I can't speak for your area(though I have been there), but here in SoCal, the dating world is FIERCE. Visitors to San Diego and people that move here are often shocked to see what goes on out here. Sometimes I think about visiting some towns in the mid-west on extended stays to see if I can meet a mid-west girl and bring her out this way. ALl my favorite girlfriends have been from Wisconsin.


----------



## joe kidd

Shamwow said:


> Thanks jk! First person to support St. Lou so far...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not far from St.Louis. State law to root for them I believe.


----------



## martyc47

Long time lurker here. Came across your threads ( originally the Infidelity one) from another forum awhile.

Sham, you are the man. I really wish I had done things half as well as you have. I have been "reconciled" for a little over a year after a weird limbo/separation with my spouse. Things suck for me. I did want the R, but... I really should have demanded/waited for certain conditions and I did not. I let my wife make me a back up and got back together without the necessary remorse, changes, and so on.

I'm not rooting for anyone to divorce or reconcile. I think every situation is up to those involved to resolve to their satisfaction. I did, however, have a feeling that you were holding out some hope for the reconciliation, and I was hoping that might work out for you ( if you wanted it). I'm seeing so many things that would have to change, IMHO, for you guys to have a real R with a chance to survive long term. I can only speak for myself and share my own opinions..and I feel like I know what NOT to do. I think with your wife's unwillingness to take responsibility and her lifestyle, it's inevitable this type of thing would happen again if you got back together. Don't look back.


----------



## Chaparral

Just a thought. Get back into dating now! Make sure you let datees know you are NOT into long disance relationships or SOs who either travel or drink alot. Also that will answer questions about your divorce.

Anticipating bad emails from stbx but hoping for the best.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> Just a thought. Get back into dating now! Make sure you let datees know you are NOT into long disance relationships or SOs who either travel or drink alot. Also that will answer questions about your divorce.
> 
> Anticipating bad emails from stbx but hoping for the best.


Thanks chap...I'm there with you, I'll do something about my options here soon...gotta jump in the pool. Feels like the time.

For the life of me I can't think of what an SO is though...decoder ring please?

***Edit: Ahhh, Significant Other. Gotcha.


----------



## Shamwow

Marty - thanks for the input...sorry you're regretting R, but it sounds like there are a lot of similarities here, and it makes sense to not pursue R lightly. I would bet my left n*t that the mixed signals from my stbxw are done with. Especially when she gets the agreement in front of her (she's gonna be so p*ssed that I'll be deducting affair expenses from my marital debt...plus I suspect the whole thing'll be real for both of us once it's in front of us on paper). Good luck man...


----------



## piqued

Carpenter did his job again. Congrats on game 1.


----------



## MarriedTex

Sham,

While hard to let go of vision of R, it's best for you in the long run. Going over to your old house to hang with her was nothing short of self-inflicted torture. I understand the need to drive towards closure, but you really just bought yourself more angst in the drive to get it.

You may still wind up on her couch upon her return. If that happens, take condoms with you - if you can handle it emotionally. There are worse things than no-strings attached sex. But only do it if you look at it as an opportunity to get laid and not as a window for re-starting R. Some good, rough end-of-relationship sex. NOW THAT'S CLOSURE:smthumbup:


----------



## eagleclaw

That's what I was thinking. Your chance to use HER and abuse her so to speak. Tonque and cheek, don't flame me, kind of, not realy, but a little bit.


----------



## Shamwow

But then she'd be cheating on hs douche (SMH)...then again, odds are she will anyway. Sigh...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> But then she'd be cheating on hs douche (SMH)...then again, odds are she will anyway. Sigh...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly, you get to be the OM with your own wife. This could be a good role for you. From what I hear, she likes those OM.


----------



## tacoma

Sham don`t touch her, don`t give her the satisfaction of ever having you again.

I`ve been glued to your threads since your first post on the infidelity board and I feel you`ve really dealt with this whole thing fantastically, truly admirably.

I was getting the vibe that you wanted R and really wanted that to work out but after myself being reminded by other posters about how you got here and her lack of willingness to even go there or put herself in a vulnerable position to try and save this I have to apologize for probably giving you bad advice about hoping for R.

I just wanted it to work out I suppose.

Finish the D and end this man.

I will voice my agreement with those here who are telling you to get dating because it is my experience it`ll make this **** easier for you.
It always has for me during a split


Some here will tell you that if you do date, you yourself will be guilty of infidelity because you`re still married on paper.
I hope I don`t have to explain why that`s nonsense but I will if they go there.


Finish this off, NC except for the divorce/splitting stuff.
Call that number the waitress gave you, call it tomorrow.


----------



## Shaggy

Don't wait until tomorrow, call it today and go out this weekend! Sham, be prepared for your WW to go nuts and love bomb you if you do. I think she still feels like she owns you, even if she feels free to sleep with anything
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

This is fun.

Just got an email from the spunky little waitress. Note: I didn't give her my info. (but she knows my business name and was clearly proactive)

I'd take that as a good sign (or she's a total stalker). Here we go folks...


----------



## F-102

Sham, do NOT have sex with STBX-she could try something...

And, as far as the waitress, cool!


----------



## Almostrecovered

Need pics of waitress please
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## joe kidd

Almostrecovered said:


> Need pics of waitress please
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yep Pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## krismimo

http://url=http://youtu.be/_RrA-R5VHQs]Evanescence - Call Me When You're Sober - YouTube[/url][/URL]

When I was having a rough time through my break up this song always put it in perspective.


----------



## MrQuatto

yes, pics or gtfo!

As for the "Stalker" aspect, enjoy it man, it's a nice change for you, i'm sure  

Good to be da king!

Q~


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> Sham, do NOT have sex with STBX-she could try something...
> 
> And, as far as the waitress, cool!


As far as stbxw...not even a glimmer in my mind at the moment.

As far as waitress, we shall see. Definitely fun so far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

About the game-Sorry, bro!


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> About the game-Sorry, bro!


I know man...2-0 would've been sweet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Pics...y'all are just wrong. SMH
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sh0t

When you do it, make sure the Tron soundtrack is in the backgrouns


----------



## girlfromipanema

OMG. You guys are crazy. Tron soundtrack??? I think you and my H would get along just fine.

Glad you're having some fun, Sham. You most certainly deserve to. I'm in the camp that thinks you shouldn't give your wife the exquisite pleasure of having one last romp with you. Play the field and have some fun being the new Sham.


----------



## Voiceofreason

girlfromipanema said:


> I'm in the camp that thinks you shouldn't give your wife the exquisite pleasure of having one last romp with you. Play the field and have some fun being the new Sham.


:iagree:
Sham 2.0 basically has and keeps all the power by breaking off all physical relations upon discovering the betrayal. You sleep with her and she will have the satisfaction of knowing she can still seduce you and that suggests to her that what she did to you couldn't have been so bad.

Now as for the spunky waitress...Sham 2.0 is obviously very attractive and he should not hesitate to enjoy the fruits of being Sham 2.0...just don't break that girl's heart Mr. 2.0


----------



## Shamwow

girlfromipanema said:


> OMG. You guys are crazy. Tron soundtrack??? I think you and my H would get along just fine.
> 
> Glad you're having some fun, Sham. You most certainly deserve to. I'm in the camp that thinks you shouldn't give your wife the exquisite pleasure of having one last romp with you. Play the field and have some fun being the new Sham.


With ya, ipanema.  Personally, love Tron. The music was revolutionary...Walter/Wendy Carlos was way ahead of his/her time. But a soundtrack for love? Yeah, not seeing it. Spur of the moment, maybe. But planned out...well, I'm already in therapy, but still...

As of now, as contradictory as this sounds to my recent meanderings, my stbxw won't get a thing from me at this point except an agreement to sign. I gave hope a reluctant shot...now I feel confident I couldn't really want her anymore anyway. There's a good chance I'll be officially single in a week or two if everything goes smoothly. And she'll officially be a cheating wife who was divorced by her husband. I gotta take my side on this one.

W came back to town today. I was in a great mood for the last few days, and then she texted to say she landed and how are things with the papers, I said "in progress, will let you know when there's something to sign". She made some cracks about my lawyer dragging it out (she hasn't done jack in 5-6 weeks regarding assets/debts/property splits, and now I'm holding her up? Please...). Just told her "Can't imagine one reason why he would do that." She then asked if the dogs were doing okay. Come on. Told her "always" and that was it. Anyway, I was suddenly pissy for an hour or two. This is the effect she has on me now. Then I got over it. And had a great night with friends. I hope I continue to feel this way . I'm tired of spending time on people who don't want to spend time on me.

The waitress is an aspiring writer - just got an offer for her first publishing deal. Haven't read her novel yet, but expect to next week. Our email exchanges are much like our in-person talks...creative writing. Half of what I say I'm making up. Her too. Dig it.

I know I'm technically a rebound machine at the moment, but I will jump into enjoying myself with lovely women who enjoy spending time with me. And it seems she does. As far as I can tell through all the sarcasm and creative sidewinding. She wrote about me on her blog last night, in an anonymous and ambiguous way. She didn't know for sure that I would see it, but I did. Good stuff.

Life continues, it seems.

Wish me luck.

Go Cards!


----------



## Chaparral

Hey Sham, and how old is aspiring writer? 

As always, good luck

Chap


----------



## Whip Morgan

Sham, how does your new friend feel about your situation? She must know of the potential "rebound", or just simply the need for time to continue healing. 

I dont believe you'd ever lead her on, but honest discussion with her is good, whether or not you step up your relationship. Of course, if she wrote a blog about you, in this day and age, you must be in !


----------



## Shamwow

She's 31. She knows about where I'm at...seems to understand the implications, probably a little hesitant though, knowing that no matter how I act I'm probably gonna be a wreck for a while. She's recently out of a 2-yr relationship I think.

Though I think the fact that the D will be final in a week or two is helpful. But just having fun, so what's the harm...

Drinks w girl #2 tonight (loosely based on work). Busy day up til then. I'm gonna need some Red Bull or something...


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Drinks w girl #2 tonight (loosely based on work). Busy day up til then. I'm gonna need some Red Bull or something...


Is that something blue and diamond shaped?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Great day, all. Spent the afternoon with waitress, new and exciting. Gave her a chance to ask anything she wants about my situation, and we had a great talk. Then went back to just having fun. I would say "wish I'd detached and done this long ago", but I think it had to run it's course. And I know I'm not out of the woods yet, gonna take some time. Went for a crisp 5-mile jog after dinner. Heck of a nice day. Can't wait to be signed off with the W. Hopefully this week!

Now if the Cards can just pull it out tonight I'd call it a perfect day. Haven't had one of those since April.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## harusty

Shamwow said:


> Great day, all. Spent the afternoon with waitress, new and exciting. Gave her a chance to ask anything she wants about my situation, and we had a great talk. Then went back to just having fun. I would say "wish I'd detached and done this long ago", but I think it had to run it's course. And I know I'm not out of the woods yet, gonna take some time. Went for a crisp 5-mile jog after dinner. Heck of a nice day. Can't wait to be signed off with the W. Hopefully this week!
> 
> Now if the Cards can just pull it out tonight I'd call it a perfect day. Haven't had one of those since April.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well done!:smthumbup:


----------



## MrQuatto

Shamwow said:


> Great day, all. Spent the afternoon with waitress, new and exciting. Gave her a chance to ask anything she wants about my situation, and we had a great talk. Then went back to just having fun. I would say "wish I'd detached and done this long ago", but I think it had to run it's course. And I know I'm not out of the woods yet, gonna take some time. Went for a crisp 5-mile jog after dinner. Heck of a nice day. Can't wait to be signed off with the W. Hopefully this week!
> 
> Now if the Cards can just pull it out tonight I'd call it a perfect day. Haven't had one of those since April.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Outstanding Sham, There may be hope for the world yet 

Q~


----------



## Anubis

Shamwow said:


> Great day, all. Spent the afternoon with waitress, new and exciting. Gave her a chance to ask anything she wants about my situation, and we had a great talk. Then went back to just having fun. I would say "wish I'd detached and done this long ago", but I think it had to run it's course. And I know I'm not out of the woods yet, gonna take some time. Went for a crisp 5-mile jog after dinner. Heck of a nice day. Can't wait to be signed off with the W. Hopefully this week!
> 
> Now if the Cards can just pull it out tonight I'd call it a perfect day. Haven't had one of those since April.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Excellent progress Sham!

oh, and to respond to earlier posters.... do NOT, under any circumstances sleep with the STBX .... I made that mistake, just once (long story), and dodged a bullet with it. The short version is that I was Stupid with a capital S and fell for the stuff coming from her mouth.


----------



## MarriedTex

Anubis said:


> Excellent progress Sham!
> 
> oh, and to respond to earlier posters.... do NOT, under any circumstances sleep with the STBX .... I made that mistake, just once (long story), and dodged a bullet with it. The short version is that I was Stupid with a capital S and fell for the stuff coming from her mouth.


I would agree with this overall. I think Sham was putting himself through torture continuing with the "hang-out" relationship that was developing.

My advice at the time was to go ahead and get sex from her if he was going over, hanging out with her and pseudo-flirting with her anyway. 

Sham would be much better off eliminating all socializing with STBX and focusing on new women. That said, if he was putting himself through the pain of dealing with STBX socially, he may as well have gone ahead and done the deed. Now, with that aspect seemingly out of the picture, the way forward becomes much more clear now.


----------



## octnine

hey sham,
thanks so much for your story.
timing of my spouses affair was similiar to yours,(datewise) but much more involved and torrid.
just found out recently and it is certainly a life changing event.
good luck to us and all others in this type of situation.
watching C Lo Greenes forget u(uncensored version) on youtube.
makes me feel better for some reason.. :>)
octnine


----------



## Shamwow

Oct - so sorry to hear you've been dealing with this too. Hope you're seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.

I was all over that song too. I'd also recommend 25 to Life by Eminem (uncensored, of course), heck of a release for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

I just want to take the time and use this space to say that Larussa is a whiny b!tch and is very unshamwowlike


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> I just want to take the time and use this space to say that Larussa is a whiny b!tch and is very unshamwowlike


Ha! Yeah, my blood pressure spiked pretty hard last night at every botched opportunity to score...that was brutal.


----------



## Shamwow

W just texted she misses the pups. Then asked if I wanted to come over and watch old sitcoms, she has wine and salmon.

I told her "Sorry, no can do. Sounds like a heck of a party though, enjoy."

Man that felt good. Because I didn't even consider it. It was hard to resist adding any zingers ("Don't worry, I'm sure someday you'll find someone else to hang with"...or "That would be awesome! Except you cheated on me and I'm divorcing your ass.")

Happy for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## scione

Shamwow said:


> "That would be awesome! Except you cheated on me and I'm divorcing your ass."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, you should have added the zinger.


----------



## tacoma

Shamwow said:


> W just texted she misses the pups. Then asked if I wanted to come over and watch old sitcoms, she has wine and salmon.
> 
> I told her "Sorry, no can do. Sounds like a heck of a party though, enjoy."
> 
> Man that felt good. Because I didn't even consider it. It was hard to resist adding any zingers ("Don't worry, I'm sure someday you'll find someone else to hang with"...or "That would be awesome! Except you cheated on me and I'm divorcing your ass.")
> 
> Happy for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No zingers Sham.

Polite, kind, respectful, confident, and all business.

But you know that.

Can`t wait until she finds out about the waitress, she will find out you`re dating sooner rather than later and I`m looking forward to her reaction.


----------



## golfergirl

tacoma said:


> No zingers Sham.
> 
> Polite, kind, respectful, confident, and all business.
> 
> But you know that.
> 
> Can`t wait until she finds out about the waitress, she will find out you`re dating sooner rather than later and I`m looking forward to her reaction.


No zingers - happy for you too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## harusty

I hope she finds out that you're dating before she goes on her next business trip. Let her wonder what you are up to while she's gone. The NC will drive her nuts. Once she knows that you are no longer at her beck & call, maybe reality will finally sink in. Keep up the good work.


----------



## Shamwow

She very well may know already. I only mentioned something vague, to one "peripheral" friend, no details whatsoever. Just that I was meeting with someone so I couldn't do lunch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Now W is texting me pics of our dogs. Why doesn't she just call her boyfriend if she's lonely?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

interesting symbolism in the pics of your dogs... almost feels like she is communicating that you are like her dog or something - or as reliable as a dog or ol' yeller or something. 

here are some options for your kind response:
* pic of your new hard body
* pic of dbag mcgee (if you have one)
* pic of stewie from family guy

or even accidentally forward her a pic of your last date, and a follow-up txt of OOPS! wrong pic!


----------



## golfergirl

Dadof3 said:


> interesting symbolism in the pics of your dogs... almost feels like she is communicating that you are like her dog or something - or as reliable as a dog or ol' yeller or something.
> 
> here are some options for your kind response:
> * pic of your new hard body
> * pic of dbag mcgee (if you have one)
> * pic of stewie from family guy
> 
> or even accidentally forward her a pic of your last date, and a follow-up txt of OOPS! wrong pic!


Wow she likes to keep herself top of mind awareness. She must be reeling. Almost hooked up last time she saw you - now you're blowing her off. Suweeeet!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gabriel

My God, I can't believe she is STILL trying to have you over for all these casual visits. How freaking annoying. Just cut bait, woman!

She is clearly lonely and in constant need of company/attention. I'm sure this had a huge play in her infidelity. 

BTW, I love Dad's texting suggestions. The Oops one, especially. Her reaction to you dating someone would be priceless.


----------



## MarriedTex

Gabriel said:


> My God, I can't believe she is STILL trying to have you over for all these casual visits. How freaking annoying. Just cut bait, woman!
> 
> She is clearly lonely and in constant need of company/attention. I'm sure this had a huge play in her infidelity.
> 
> BTW, I love Dad's texting suggestions. The Oops one, especially. Her reaction to you dating someone would be priceless.


Don't tell her or talk to her directly about your relationships - at least until the divorce is final. Indeed, I would suggest taking it slow with waitress if D will indeed be finalized in next couple of weeks. Yeah, just a technicality because marriage is dead, but you've taken high road successfully so far. Might as well do it all the way.


----------



## F-102

If she asks about the waitress (and I have a feeling it won't be a curious request, it will be a royal kimchi fit/conniption-style demand for answers), tell her: "If you like, I'll send a pair of my shorts, and you can have them analyzed".

Okay, don't do that, but I think you'll think of something-I'd go dark on it until the finalization, but at the same time, I think she may not be in such a hurry to finalize when she finds out.


----------



## Dadof3

Sham is either having a great night - quiet - by himself, or he's flirting with disaster with the STBXW. Should we take bets?


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Sham is either having a great night - quiet - by himself, or he's flirting with disaster with the STBXW. Should we take bets?


Nope, went for a spur-of-the-moment walk around the lake with my new spunky little companion. It was very, very nice. My mind is at ease with her. And damn she's cute.

Never responded to STBXW's doggie pics or her subsequent comments from this afternoon, blew her off without concern. And just now (12:57am) I get a text from her saying, simply, "I'm sorry."

As much as it truly does make me feel pain in the moment, I can't respond. WAY too little, WAY too late. I don't feel pain for my loss (had plenty of time to do that since June), I feel pain for her and what she's processing now, what's she's lost. She is lonely and regretting her actions. And it is her fault. And I feel no real love for her now, only a reminiscent ache...sorry W. You did this. Really.

I think one very stiff drink is in order tonight, and then it's time to continue moving on to bigger and better things.


----------



## krismimo

Funny you guys mention dogs, I'm having a glass of wine and watching the horror movie CUJO on AMC symbolism indeed!


----------



## uphillbattle

Shamwow said:


> Nope, went for a spur-of-the-moment walk around the lake with my new spunky little companion. It was very, very nice. My mind is at ease with her. And damn she's cute.
> 
> Never responded to STBXW's doggie pics or her subsequent comments from this afternoon, blew her off without concern. And just now (12:57am) I get a text from her saying, simply, "I'm sorry."
> 
> As much as it truly does make me feel pain in the moment, I can't respond. WAY too little, WAY too late. I don't feel pain for my loss (had plenty of time to do that since June), I feel pain for her and what she's processing now, what's she's lost. She is lonely and regretting her actions. And it is her fault. And I feel no real love for her now, only a reminiscent ache...sorry W. You did this. Really.
> 
> I think one very stiff drink is in order tonight, and then it's time to continue moving on to bigger and better things.


Although I can only go by what you say (little companion and your stbxw gained weight) but it sounds like you are moving on to SMALLER and better things lol.


----------



## harusty

F-102 said:


> If she asks about the waitress (and I have a feeling it won't be a curious request, it will be a royal kimchi fit/conniption-style demand for answers), tell her: "If you like, I'll send a pair of my shorts, and you can have them analyzed".
> 
> Okay, don't do that, but I think you'll think of something-I'd go dark on it until the finalization, but at the same time, I think she may not be in such a hurry to finalize when she finds out.


LOL, this is funny, 102 you cracked me up.


----------



## NotLikeYou

Shamwow said:


> Nope, went for a spur-of-the-moment walk around the lake with my new spunky little companion. It was very, very nice. My mind is at ease with her. And damn she's cute.
> 
> Never responded to STBXW's doggie pics or her subsequent comments from this afternoon, blew her off without concern. And just now (12:57am) I get a text from her saying, simply, "I'm sorry."
> 
> As much as it truly does make me feel pain in the moment, I can't respond. WAY too little, WAY too late. I don't feel pain for my loss (had plenty of time to do that since June), I feel pain for her and what she's processing now, what's she's lost. She is lonely and regretting her actions. And it is her fault. And I feel no real love for her now, only a reminiscent ache...sorry W. You did this. Really.
> 
> I think one very stiff drink is in order tonight, and then it's time to continue moving on to bigger and better things.


Yeah, Sham 2.0 works MUCH better than Sham 1.0! I can't offer any words of improvement- you look to be firmly on the road to a completely better Shamwow, and I am really happy for you.

Some people may start analyzing "I'm sorry," but, really, I think your STBXW has way too much to apologize for to be able to put it in texts. It's just another hook, with the least amount of bait on it that she thinks she can reel you in with. There'll be more hooks tossed your way, with more meat on them, and I hope you recognize them for the crap they are.

Here's hoping that things continue to progress between you and the young, cute, hotter girl who seems really interested in you. Imagine that- a girl who likes you a lot, even when you're not at your absolute best emotionally! It's almost like you're a really good guy, or something


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

congrats on moving forward.


----------



## MarriedTex

Sham,

Your trials here are not over by a long shot. You appear to still be engaged emotionally, reacting (some would say over-reacting) to any new tidbit of emotional bait thrown onto the hook by the ex. 

No advice here. Just an observation. You will know you have moved on when you don't flash through the possible intentions associated with her messages / invitations. No one expects you to be stone-faced and completely over her. Just recognize this as an issue - a continued Achilles heel - that is a vulnerability for you. She can spin you up still - both positively and negatively. 

When you can think of her with indifference rather than resentment, then you will know that you have achieved a significant milestone. It may take some time to get there, yet. Good luck. Step by step.


----------



## Shamwow

Thanks Tex. I don't mean to sound as if it's all wrapped up, I'm all better, life is smooth sailing now, or anything like that. Just the way I felt last night. Funny thing is I feel the same way this morning too, so I'll take that as a good sign. A week or two ago I would've gone over there. And I can't speak for next week, so we'll have to have to wait and see, but when I wrote that I was in a reflective mood and it felt good to see it from a more aloof standpoint, rather than thinking it might do me some good to see her.

Sure, I reacted to it. But if that was over-reacting, I think I'm moving in the right direction.

For what it's worth, I have my IC appt this afternoon, timing's pretty good on that I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

And then there's game 6 to consider, too!


----------



## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> Thanks Tex. I don't mean to sound as if it's all wrapped up, I'm all better, life is smooth sailing now, or anything like that. Just the way I felt last night. Funny thing is I feel the same way this morning too, so I'll take that as a good sign. A week or two ago I would've gone over there. And I can't speak for next week, so we'll have to have to wait and see, but when I wrote that I was in a reflective mood and it felt good to see it from a more aloof standpoint, rather than thinking it might do me some good to see her.
> 
> Sure, I reacted to it. But if that was over-reacting, I think I'm moving in the right direction.
> 
> For what it's worth, I have my IC appt this afternoon, timing's pretty good on that I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wouldn't say you over-reacted. Sheesh. She was the most significant person in your life for eight years or whatever. You're not going to turn that off overnight like a faucet. It's going to take time for you not to care about what she says, what she does anymore. That's not bad. That's just part of mourning a relationship like this. Your reactions are normal and should be expected.

Just because you post on a board that everything's turned off and you're moving on, it's not really true. Everytime you have an intereaction with her, it prompts some analysis/reading the tea leaves on the board. You still care. And you know what, that's allright.

You have to acknowledge this basic truth and then get to some other basic fundamentals - like she's toxic and has only her own best interests at heart. Getting those guiding principles into your head will help protect you from the emotional vulnerabilities that she still can (and is trying to ) exploit.

None of your reactions on this are wrong. Just don't try to convince us that you're moving on and don't care about her opinion any more. Your posts and your reactions tell a different story, but that's allright. Just recognize your own Achilles' Heel and use that information to keep your guard up.


----------



## Shamwow

Sorry, have to rebut. Just reporting positive progress. If I'm trying to "convince" the board by being honest about how I currently feel (and how I know that I could feel differently tomorrow), then I guess I should be locked up, because I don't understand the logic.

Papers will (hopefully) be here on Friday. If they were in front me right now I'd sign and not look back. I could use some cash...Who's got 20 against me?


----------



## tacoma

Shamwow said:


> I could use some cash...Who's got 20 against me?


You`ve got to be kidding.


----------



## Chaparral

Anyone that survives a crushing blow has to be admired. Even in instances where it may seem that its two steps forward and one step backward. Wish this had not happened to you but it did. 

Now you make the best of it and I hope you can someday look back and think it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened. For example when your sitting in your chair looking at two or three kids chasing each other screaming while you're trying to watch the ballgame. 

Stay strong. Wishing you well.


----------



## MarriedTex

Shamwow said:


> Sorry, have to rebut. Just reporting positive progress. If I'm trying to "convince" the board by being honest about how I currently feel (and how I know that I could feel differently tomorrow), then I guess I should be locked up, because I don't understand the logic.
> 
> Papers will (hopefully) be here on Friday. If they were in front me right now I'd sign and not look back. I could use some cash...Who's got 20 against me?


Sham,

I have no doubt you will succeed. Wouldn't take that bet. Just warning of potential vulnerabilities that I perceive. The best defense is awareness. Helps you be prepared.

Even after you sign the divorce papers, the ex will try to figure out a way to worm into your brain and mess you up. I'm not saying you're going to fail. I'm just sounding the warning so that the odds of your continued success are higher. She's bad news for you. You deserve better. Best of luck.


----------



## golfergirl

MarriedTex said:


> Sham,
> 
> I have no doubt you will succeed. Wouldn't take that bet. Just warning of potential vulnerabilities that I perceive. The best defense is awareness. Helps you be prepared.
> 
> Even after you sign the divorce papers, the ex will try to figure out a way to worm into your brain and mess you up. I'm not saying you're going to fail. I'm just sounding the warning so that the odds of your continued success are higher. She's bad news for you. You deserve better. Best of luck.


I have faith in you. It will drive her insane, but still have faith!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Shamwow said:


> Sorry, have to rebut. Just reporting positive progress. If I'm trying to "convince" the board by being honest about how I currently feel (and how I know that I could feel differently tomorrow), then I guess I should be locked up, because I don't understand the logic.
> 
> Papers will (hopefully) be here on Friday. If they were in front me right now I'd sign and not look back. I could use some cash...Who's got 20 against me?


Just make sure you and the lawyer read every line of those papers before you sign.


----------



## Shamwow

Papers are from my lawyer only, based on an agreement W and I put together. W has decided to drop her guy to save money, she just wants to sign so she can sell the house quick and get out (or so she says at the moment, we shall see). But yeah, I'll definitely review them thoroughly either way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

you getting full custody of the dogs?


----------



## Shamwow

Yep
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

She basically gets her stuff, and she gets to go out and start a new life. Pretty much exactly what she wanted, except for the dogs and not being able to pawn the house off on me. (her plan was to ask me to buy it)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Sham, did you try to trak down the money she maybe sent to the financial planner guy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Got the papers. First draft, a few details to fill in. Looking at Monday for a revised draft which I can give to W for review.

I called her for the details, she gave me them. Then started asking why it's fair that she has to take half the debt when I make more money. She said "I've only made $----- this year!". I said, "Well, I'm sorry, that's uncontested divorce.". Told her that's what her lawyer is for, if she wants to go for stuff like that it won't be coming from me. She got pissed and hung up. Then texts "Sorry I hung up.". Then 20 minutes later texts and asks if I wanna watch the game (sorry, if the "pups" wanna watch the game). Told her I can't, Go Cards.

I have a date tonight. We'll be watching the game.

**EDIT: To clarify, my date is NOT w stbxw.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Shaggy, she was looking into transferring her retirement accounts to a new rep that had been recommended by a friend, to split off from "our guy". She never switched it over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## girlfromipanema

Shammie,

I'm so glad you're feeling strong and moving forward. Please update us on your date. I hope you enjoy yourself immensely.

I gotta say... I feel sorry for your wife. 37 years old, twice divorced, no house, a second hand car, a mountain of debt... Her life is going down the tubes and you're flourishing. I hate to see someone self-destruct, but hopefully someday she'll try to get her life back in order.

Have fun tonight. Go Cards. I'll root just for you - not paying attention to the WS at all.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> I have a date tonight. We'll be watching the game.[/size]


waitress or coworker?


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> waitress or coworker?


Waitress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

I don't recall getting the pics yet
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrQuatto

Almostrecovered said:


> I don't recall getting the pics yet
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol:

Yea, pics or gtfo!

Q~


----------



## Chaparral

Writer


----------



## F-102

She tries to push your buttons, sees that she can't, hangs up angrily, then apologizes. Seems to me that your stbx somewhat reluctantly (perhaps strongly advised by her lawyer) realized that she can't be a b**ch-she MUST play nice.


----------



## octnine

Shamwow said:


> Oct - so sorry to hear you've been dealing with this too. Hope you're seeing some light at the end of the tunnel.
> 
> I was all over that song too. I'd also recommend 25 to Life by Eminem (uncensored, of course), heck of a release for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


thanks for the eminem.(realized it was his ode to hip-hop and not his lady although some of it is applicable to my stbxw)
my deal is more complex than yours.
30+ years
kids
biz interests
luckily i found undisputable proof which even she could not try to deny. but she definately was able to minimize, throw blame to me , and rug sweep.
even before i found this thread, i realized that divorce was my ONLY option since i have put up with nonsense way beyond what a person should allow.(for the kids earlier in relationship) now i have zero trust. time to man up.
no one said it would be EZ!!!
i am following your journey and wish you the best of luck. i will utilize your experiences when appropriate(it is amazing the similiarities amongst the CS's actions and BS's emotions)
onward and upward my friend
octnine...waiting for settlement agreement/emergency divorce


----------



## warlock07

> As much as it truly does make me feel pain in the moment, I can't respond. WAY too little, WAY too late. I don't feel pain for my loss (had plenty of time to do that since June), I feel pain for her and what she's processing now, what's she's lost. She is lonely and regretting her actions. And it is her fault. And I feel no real love for her now, only a reminiscent ache...sorry W. You did this. Really.





> Got the papers. First draft, a few details to fill in. Looking at Monday for a revised draft which I can give to W for review.
> 
> I called her for the details, she gave me them. Then started asking why it's fair that she has to take half the debt when I make more money. She said "I've only made $----- this year!". I said, "Well, I'm sorry, that's uncontested divorce.". Told her that's what her lawyer is for, if she wants to go for stuff like that it won't be coming from me. She got pissed and hung up. Then texts "Sorry I hung up.". Then 20 minutes later texts and asks if I wanna watch the game (sorry, if the "pups" wanna watch the game). Told her I can't, Go Cards.
> 
> I have a date tonight. We'll be watching the game.



Hello Sham, just made an account to make this post. Talk about life going full circle. i was feeling sorry for you all this while while she was going about not giving a [email protected]%k. You were waiting on her to apologize and now you don't even care. Now I feel bad for her. I think she is beginning to realize her actions. The OM was real scum though. he f%$ked over literally and emotionally. But that is Karma for you. Maybe you should let her know that she should stop acting that you are still together(as much as it stings)


----------



## F-102

How 'bout that game 6?


----------



## lordmayhem

warlock07 said:


> Hello Sham, just made an account to make this post. Talk about life going full circle. i was feeling sorry for you all this while while she was going about not giving a [email protected]%k. You were waiting on her to apologize and now you don't even care. Now I feel bad for her. I think she is beginning to realize her actions. The OM was real scum though. he f%$ked over literally and emotionally. But that is Karma for you. Maybe you should let her know that she should stop acting that you are still together(as much as it stings)


I wouldn't feel sorry for her, simply because most likely as she was texting that "I'm sorry", she was texting her new OM2 all kinds of lovey dovey things. She's a player, and is the type that won't be without another man for very long.


----------



## krismimo

If I wasn't married or lived in another state that waitress would have some competition! HE HE HE....


----------



## crossbar

I wonder if Sham's STBXW knows about his "friend" yet...


----------



## Shamwow

warlock07 said:


> Hello Sham, just made an account to make this post. Talk about life going full circle. i was feeling sorry for you all this while while she was going about not giving a [email protected]%k. You were waiting on her to apologize and now you don't even care. Now I feel bad for her. I think she is beginning to realize her actions. The OM was real scum though. he f%$ked over literally and emotionally. But that is Karma for you. Maybe you should let her know that she should stop acting that you are still together(as much as it stings)


Thanks...I do care, of course, it's just not my focus at this point. And the OM is dealing with his own mess at home (and yeah he's a total scumbag), so he's having to realize the gravity of his actions too. Doesn't make me feel good, but it's not my fault. It's his and my STBXW's for making this reality for the four of us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

F-102 said:


> How 'bout that game 6?


My heart is still palpitating from that game. Wow...just epic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mr.rightaway

Shamwow said:


> My heart is still palpitating from that game. Wow...just epic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shamwow, I caught some of your original posting when you had a thread in a different section. Haven't read all the post here, but yeah, that game...no words, man. No words.


----------



## joe kidd

Shamwow said:


> My heart is still palpitating from that game. Wow...just epic.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My heart can't take another like that. Was so pumped I barley slept.


----------



## F-102

Wonder if the phone was working this time?


----------



## joe kidd

SHAM! Cards Win! YESSSSS!


----------



## Shamwow

Best series ever. At least since '87.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## harusty

What's up Sham? I hope you're out banging your new girlfriend. Happy Halloween.


----------



## Catherine602

harusty said:


> What's up Sham? I hope you're out banging your new girlfriend. Happy Halloween.


The woman happens to be a person with feelings just like Sham. She does not deserved to be treated like a prop to a betrayed man's ego. She did nothing to deserve that type of treatment. She is being friendly and lending a sympathetic ear. 

Sham I hope that if you view this woman as a piece of aZZ to temporarily relieve your pain of being betrayed by your wife then tell her so. She may actually not mind being a notch in your belt to impress the chorus. You will only know that if she agrees. Knowing how humans are, and she is human dispute having a very coveted vag, she is looking for more than a chance to be pumped and dumped. 

. With the amount of sympathy and support that the TAM community has given over these months, it would disappointing if this turned into a feeding frenzy. Just remember, you have been hurt so please don't hurt others. I think it is more honourable to leave women alone at this point until you get your life sorted put. 

You know in your heart of hearts that you cannot offer this girl or anyone what she is looking for but she does not know that because she is naive. She does not realize that she is just a sidenote a drama orchestrated by a chorus of dispassionate advisors who don't give a fig about her. 

You have acted well, so please don't start down the road of involving innocent women in your search to feel better about yourself. This is not a solution to your problems. You have to search for validation within yourself, scoring a half dozen women in the next few weeks would impress some if your aim is low.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Catherine - Agree with you completely. She knows exactly what my situation is, and I am not going for notches, I'm enjoying my time with a beautiful girl who likes spending time with me. No worries, I'm not approaching this from a player perspective. I'm acutely aware of my position of power to hurt someone new...especially in a rebound situation. So I'm treading carefully, but also really having fun getting out there. Though I do have friends that seem to say I should be making the rounds...they're just pointing out the option. I know who I am though (though who knows what options will be in front of me going forward - I'm trying to be a blank slate. If I meet a no-strings notcher, who knows?). Thanks for your thoughts...

Edit: Meantime, I am still married, so that grounds me in the dating world...though the clock is ticking. Just got the revised draft of the D papers and am sending over to W for her review. She could drag it out and argue over things now, or I could be single in two days. Who knows?


----------



## morituri

Plainly said, respect yourself and respect others.



Larry Bilotta said:


> It’s not sex a man wants, its sexual intimacy. Sexual intimacy is NOT sex. Sex pleases only the man, but sexual intimacy is all about a man’s ability to physically please a woman


----------



## PHTlump

Catherine602 said:


> Knowing how humans are, and she is human dispute having a very coveted vag, she is looking for more than a chance to be pumped and dumped.


Assuming that Sham doesn't force himself on her, or falsely proclaim his undying love for her, wouldn't any woman willing to hop in the sack with a man she's known for a few weeks be implicitly agreeing to a sexual relationship without any commitment? 



Catherine602 said:


> Just remember, you have been hurt so please don't hurt others. I think it is more honourable to leave women alone at this point until you get your life sorted put.


I was under the impression that women were free, perhaps even encouraged in some circles, to decline to have sex with a man. Are women so dimwitted that they will believe that short-term sexual relationships obligate commitment from a man?



Catherine602 said:


> You know in your heart of hearts that you cannot offer this girl or anyone what she is looking for but she does not know that because she is naive. She does not realize that she is just a sidenote a drama orchestrated by a chorus of dispassionate advisors who don't give a fig about her.


Perhaps she's not naive. Perhaps she is a smart, capable, independent, sexually adventurous women who is interested in a little physical action with a man who has been completely open about his marital status. I wouldn't automatically assume that she, or women in general, must be protected from the big, bad world, by men who have very little invested in them.


----------



## Catherine602

PHTlump said:


> Assuming that Sham doesn't force himself on her, or falsely proclaim his undying love for her, wouldn't any woman willing to hop in the sack with a man she's known for a few weeks be implicitly agreeing to a sexual relationship without any commitment?
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that women were free, perhaps even encouraged in some circles, to decline to have sex with a man. Are women so dimwitted that they will believe that short-term sexual relationships obligate commitment from a man?
> 
> 
> Perhaps she's not naive. Perhaps she is a smart, capable, independent, sexually adventurous women who is interested in a little physical action with a man who has been completely open about his marital status. I wouldn't automatically assume that she, or women in general, must be protected from the big, bad world, by men who have very little invested in them.


What!! Well why are there so many player books and web sites selling programs on how to persuade women to be pumped and dumped or used? 

Nice try. Men know that very well which women is looking for sex only and which are looking for someone special. If a woman is looking for sex only she is upfront about it. 

The problem comes when the man wants nothing special but he is unwilling to forgo her exercising her choice to engage in casual sex or not by hiding his intensions. 

Women don't need protection from an honest man but she does from dishonest men which is exactly what I said above. Yes, some women are naive to think that sex means love because that what men tell them. That's not being dimwitted that is being used. 

Maybe you are right, women are dimwitted - that's why so many women stop having sex after a couple of years of marriage. They finally get it - sex means he gets his rocks off and is otherwise meaningless. 

She can do what she likes but it is for her to decide.


----------



## krismimo

I strongly disagree with almost everything you said Catherine free will is free will I'm not trying to speak fot most women when it hard enough just trying to figure out myself. I agree with a lot of what you said pthump lets not try to put most people in one category, everyone is different and people make their own choices, getting back to the matter at hand I hope something more does come out of this for sham he does deserve it, if not something far more better will come along if it is not meant to be, just like most of us before we all start jumping to conclusions is to take ONE DAY AT A TIME.


----------



## PHTlump

Catherine602 said:


> What!! Well why are there so many player books and web sites selling programs on how to persuade women to be pumped and dumped or used?


You misunderstand the books and websites. I have seen several and am yet to see one that advocates misrepresenting your commitment to a woman in order to bed her. The websites teach strategies for identifying women who are up for casual sex and then presenting yourself in the best manner possible to get the casual sex these women are offering.

They're really no different than sites offering tips on fashion or makeup for women. It's about identification and presentation, not manipulation.



Catherine602 said:


> The problem comes when the man wants nothing special but he is unwilling to forgo her exercising her choice to engage in casual sex or not by hiding his intensions.


How can a man hide his intentions? Every female over the age of thirteen knows what men have on their minds. And, as I said, earlier, if a man proposes marriage or proclaims undying love after spending a few hours with a woman in order to obtain sex, I think that's shameful behavior. But it's also very unproductive behavior. Women more interested in casual sex than in commitment will run from that behavior. Even most women interested in commitment are going to be disturbed by such a quick escalation by a man.



Catherine602 said:


> Women don't need protection from an honest man but she does from dishonest men which is exactly what I said above. Yes, some women are naive to think that sex means love because that what men tell them. That's not being dimwitted that is being used.


If a woman is willing to believe that a man she has spent a few hours with is committed to her, regardless of the man's stated intentions (which I don't advocate lying about), then I think she's dimwitted. Commitment requires more time than that. Time that a pump-and-dumper is not willing to spend. There are no pick-up blogs giving strategies to scoring with chicks after a four-month courtship.



Catherine602 said:


> She can do what she likes but it is for her to decide.


I agree. I think women are completely capable of deciding their own sexual fates. I think it's sexist and condescending to admonish men to be chivalrous and valiant toward women because these weak-willed, dimwitted women may be fooled into believing that having sex with a man who has promised no commitment means that said man will automatically be obligated to the woman.

And I think it's contradictory to argue that women are capable of deciding their own actions and destinies, yet are also delicate flowers who must be protected from their own natures by the men around them.


----------



## F-102

Uh, Sham...where did you go?


----------



## MarriedTex

F-102 said:


> Uh, Sham...where did you go?


It's a good sign Sham is not here. Out re-building his life, brick-by-brick. Always like to hear your updates, Sham. But it's a positive to see that you don't have to hit the site everyday just to make it through the next drama.


----------



## Zzyzx

F-102 said:


> Uh, Sham...where did you go?


Suffering from Sham withdrawal ... how sad ...


----------



## Shamwow

Quick check-in, doing just fine. I've been pretty busy the last few days with work as well as play.

W has had the most recent draft of the D papers since Monday now...yesterday she tells me she hasn't been able to get to reading it yet. Ummm, it's 10 whole pages...double-spaced. So yeah, that could take a while, right? Anyway, she said she'd read them today or tomorrow and get back to me. She leaves on Sunday for an 11-day work trip, so I hope for an answer before then. If not, I suppose she can always FedEx a signed copy to me from her location. She was in such a hurry a month ago...

Now I am ready for this to be done. Everything in there was verbally agreed upon between us. Just read them and sign them please!

Been spending a lot of time with my new little companion. She's awesome, and very patient...so far. I read her book (that's recently been picked up for publishing if she agrees to the crap deal)...it's great. Biased viewpoint coming from me, sure. But great nonetheless. Whew. What if it had sucked?  So I suppose I should refer to her as the writer, as opposed to the waitress? 

Been talking it up with anyone and everyone around me, when I'm in the mood (which is a lot these days). Got some new clothes. Waist is 4 inches smaller than four months ago. Makes shopping a bit more fun. I've had a few numbers thrown at me without asking. Ummm, I like Mk II.

Just busted my n*tz at the gym this morning and tonight I'm roadtripping to visit an old friend a couple hours away...he's recently divorced, should be interesting.

Not that life is perfect or anything, I find myself down once in a while, and I'm not sure how I'll feel when it's time to sign the D papers, but overall things are looking up and I'm a lot more comfortable with where things are at. Very comfortable.

W told a friend recently about her dilemma with men...that she needs an alpha, and in her job SHE'S the alpha on the worksite, and that messes with her relationship dynamics outside of work. She said most women in her profession that she knows are either single...or married to "Sham types". Ha. Well, I was definitely beta-ized for a while there toward the end of our marriage, so I can't fault her for saying that. But she has created a monster and doesn't even know it. Mk II. If she were just meeting me today for the first time, I'd lay a thousand that she would see anything but beta. Or if I'm wrong about that, it doesn't matter I guess, because I see it that way.

OH - found a nice outlet the other day. Let's just say a range, some targets, and a 44 magnum. Holy crap that'll loosen a guy up. Been since my grandpa's farm as a kid since I did that.


----------



## Dadof3

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:
Now I've had my Sham fix - I can go dark on the boards again! :rofl:


----------



## CantePe

A man after my own heart (figuratively speaking) ... .44 mag. My favorite.

I've been following your...well transformation for some time Sham, WOW (yeah like you haven't heard that one before huh).

Be proud, you've come a long way.


----------



## F-102

I just somehow knew that your stbxw would drag her feet with the papers. But other than that, way to go Sham!

I have to admit, I was getting concerned.


----------



## MrQuatto

yea, for someone so ****y, so insulting upon discovery and so uncaring of the exposure, it's strange to lollyigag now.

Q~


----------



## morituri

Sham, if I were you I would flaunt my new female friend in front of my cheating stbxw just to see the look on her face.


----------



## lordmayhem

She's dragging this out. BTW, while it's nice and cheaper for her to sign, you can still go forward with the D without her signature. It just all depends how long you want to put up with her delays and how much you are willing to spend on this.


----------



## Shamwow

Yep, I'd say she's officially dragging. She didn't review and get back to me by Saturday. Also, she sent a text Sat night saying she swears she'll get to them on Sun. She didn't. Again, 10 pages...not a strenuous read.

Her last bastion of control?

Mayhem, I'll check with my lawyer about how to proceed if she continues to stall. It's only been a week since the revised draft was delivered, and can't imagine she'll do this much longer, but let's just say I have plans that would be hampered if this isn't finalized in three or four weeks.

Morituri, went out with her best friend (gf) and her husband last night (they invited me out to a gallery opening of a mutual friend). Husband asked me if I've been dating. I happened to say yes. Didn't give out minute details or say anything disrespectful of W, but basically said I was really enjoying life and was now just waiting for W to sign the papers already. Not really flaunting anything, but it will get back to stbxw in short order.

Tick tick.


----------



## morituri

Good job Sham! I'll bet that even though your stbxw can mentally accept the inevitability that you will be dating or being intimately involved with other women, emotionally it will hit her like a sucker punch. You see, unfaithful wives don't view us betrayed husbands as sexually attractive UNTIL there is another woman in the picture. So I wouldn't be surprised that your stbxw will try to entice you sexually just so that the other woman won't get to have you. Let's see what happens, it should be interesting.


----------



## F-102

Look up dirty divorce tricks-I think one of them is to drag ones feet with the proceedings, even though it would be to her long term benefit to sign ASAP.


----------



## ManDup

Shamwow said:


> Catherine - Agree with you completely. She knows exactly what my situation is, and I am not going for notches, I'm enjoying my time with a beautiful girl who likes spending time with me. No worries, I'm not approaching this from a player perspective. I'm acutely aware of my position of power to hurt someone new...especially in a rebound situation. So I'm treading carefully, but also really having fun getting out there. Though I do have friends that seem to say I should be making the rounds...they're just pointing out the option. I know who I am though (though who knows what options will be in front of me going forward - I'm trying to be a blank slate. If I meet a no-strings notcher, who knows?). Thanks for your thoughts...
> 
> Edit: Meantime, I am still married, so that grounds me in the dating world...though the clock is ticking. Just got the revised draft of the D papers and am sending over to W for her review. She could drag it out and argue over things now, or I could be single in two days. Who knows?


When I was in the phase of the situation you are in now, I did almost exactly what it sounds like you are doing. I started dating mostly because I wanted to see how hard it would be to attract anyone. It turned out to be remarkably easy, especially when compared with the last time I was out there. I ended up turning down sex a couple of times because I still considered myself married, and wanted to wait until it was final. This of course turned into the last manipulative power play by ex could get over on me, so I ended up sort of compromising. 

The state requires 60 days between the time of filing and the finalization. About halfway through this stage I was casually dating and had two women I was interested in. I decided that I would wait until the finalization to get physical, and in the course of two days turned down sex with two different women, and turned down a date with a third because it just wasn't practical to date three. So that answered the difficulty part and gave me a huge confidence boost. By the end of the 60 days I had narrowed down to one dating partner, and ex had begun to drag things out. So I decided that I was morally OK with having waited until the deadline, but I would not be manipulated, so I made the move.

p.s., making a woman wait for sex, especially because you are showing self-control and character, is a HUGE turn-on for them. HUGE. Of course she knew the situation going in, and we even joked about her being "rebound girl". Well, the epilogue is that rebound girl and I are having our first anniversary of marriage this Sunday.


----------



## Shamwow

ManDup...that is awesome. Thanks, and congrats to you and "rebound girl"!


----------



## ManDup

Shamwow said:


> ManDup...that is awesome. Thanks, and congrats to you and "rebound girl"!


Thanks. And good luck to you.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I don't recall seeing pics of rebound girl either


----------



## tacoma

Almostrecovered said:


> I don't recall seeing pics of rebound girl either


:rofl::lol:


----------



## scione

Almostrecovered said:


> I don't recall seeing pics of rebound girl either


That's because it didn't happen.


----------



## MrQuatto

yea, pics or gtfo!


----------



## Shamwow

Okay, been ten days now that W has ignored the D papers I sent her (ought to be the final draft, as everything in there was previously agreed upon between us verbally). She keeps "updating" me via text or email that she's really busy, and sorry she'll get to them tomorrow, blahtedy blah. Never does. I stopped responding to these a week ago.

I know ten days is not a long time in the grand scheme, and I don't want to be unreasonable or pushy, but have to admit this is starting to get a little annoying.

Waiting to hear back from my lawyer today about my options to move it ahead without her cooperation, if she continues to drag. She's out of town for work through next Thursday (so she's "busy", yeah...but also know she's found plenty of time to party since she left on Sunday - people talk). Pending what my lawyer says, I'm planning to tell her that if she doesn't review them and sign by Thursday when she gets back, I'll be filing on Friday without her.

Why drag? All I can think of is that I have paid my half of the main utilities (gas/elec) at the house since I left and she has recently joked about not signing so that can continue. I didn't laugh. I also hoped she was truly kidding. It's not much money, but it's not a fair arrangement, especially if she's going to play games with my money.

I'm done with that now. It was an arrangement that placated the situation in September, and my lawyer has told me I don't have to pay a dime if I don't want to. Now that it's moving into winter weather the gas bill is gonna go through the roof. I want no part of it, nor should I.

Other reason I'm done? There's a guy housesitting at the house right now taking care of upkeep while she's out of town for work. Old family friend of hers, nice guy...and gay, so no funny business there. But either way, my take is HE can pay the damn bills.

Slightly irked, and losing patience.


----------



## Dadof3

Sham - I don't know why you would give her next Thurs as her deadline when she's already had 10 of them. 

Sham 2.0 needs to report for duty and plow ahead with the D filing without her. 

This will rattle her cage more than anything. She's gaming the Sham 1.0 version. Don't put up with it!


----------



## Shaggy

Sham, she is dragging because there isn't anything in it for her. It's not like she is staying faithful on you, meanwhile you have started dating and she knows it. This dragging it out is a nice easy cost less game for her.

You've been nice, too nice, finish it so you can finally move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

She may be dragging her feet so that all of the work, and all of the EXPENSE of the D will fall on YOU. It's a trick to bleed you dry so that you will have no fight left in you, and then she can swoop in for the kill.


----------



## morituri

Despite all her bravado and pride, maybe she's dragging her feet because she may not be emotionally ready to put the final nail on the coffin of her SECOND MARRIAGE. Think about it, this may be your first marriage but it is her second marriage, and the deep down she knows that the failure of her second marriage rests squarely upon her shoulders.


----------



## Dadof3

I'm not exactly convinced through all the bravado and pride that she really wants to let Sham go, either.

My wife asked how this saga was going last night - I gave her Sham's update and she agrees that as a woman in this position - she's holding on to Sham as long as she can.


----------



## Chaparral

Dadof3 said:


> I'm not exactly convinced through all the bravado and pride that she really wants to let Sham go, either.
> 
> My wife asked how this saga was going last night - I gave her Sham's update and she agrees that as a woman in this position - she's holding on to Sham as long as she can.


Sham and his wife have avoided sitting down and actually talking to each other about what has happened. There has been some small talk etc. Even a lonely little "I'm sorry". I think after some time passes both of them are going to regret this.


----------



## tacoma

chapparal said:


> Sham and his wife have avoided sitting down and actually talking to each other about what has happened. There has been some small talk etc. Even a lonely little "I'm sorry". I think after some time passes both of them are going to regret this.


I agree with you chapparal but how can you have a sincere sit down with someone who isn't likely able to handle her responsibility for what she's done?

Shams wife actions have become legion in this forum for her degree of coldness alone.

If I were Sham I don't know if I'd be able to allow mysel to be vulnerable enough to attempt that discussion, regret or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

tacoma said:


> I agree with you chapparal but how can you have a sincere sit down with someone who isn't likely able to handle her responsibility for what she's done?
> 
> Shams wife actions have become legion in this forum for her degree of coldness alone.
> 
> If I were Sham I don't know if I'd be able to allow mysel to be vulnerable enough to attempt that discussion, regret or not.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I still wonder if her "coldness' is just a cover for insecurity and defeat. I think she accepted divorce/defeat as soon as she got caught. I don't believe she ever had any choices after Sham went dark. I doubt if fighting for her marriage ever crossed her mind as a possibility.


----------



## Dadof3

Sham's W's actions maybe legion, but I'd offer a simple explanation:

1 - She's ashamed of her actions - really ashamed - but only because of the consequences Sham has placed. 
2 - She was taught, while growing up, that "mistakes" are swept under the rug and forgiven with no consequences.
3 - She really wants a rug sweep and keep Sham

No one taught her about dealing with consequences of a personal nature. This is something Sham is doing - that is 100% Alpha - which she never anticipated in a million years - although they had agreed to not let something happen like this without a "heads up" to each other before hand. 

I am also still of the belief that DB McGee wasn't her first mistake either. This is just the one that Sham knows 100% about. 

I also thought was interesting was the time period between Sham's initial move-out vs. his final resolve to D. She was pretty close to sucking Sham back in - and in my opinion - daring him to do something about her sexting the old HS friend (she knew he had access to her stuff and she didn't close it down). It became most telling when Sham mention the off-the-cuff comment his wife made through the grapevine about wishing she had someone who was more Alpha than she.

Speculation aside. I'm glad Sham is where he is now. He did a great job in finally arriving to his new life. 

Sham: one question for you, if I may - what does your stbxW do for a living (job title/role/industry) - kinda curious to map this to her Alpha-ness. She's not a Project Manager by any chance is she?


----------



## tacoma

chapparal said:


> I still wonder if her "coldness' is just a cover for insecurity and defeat. I think she accepted divorce/defeat as soon as she got caught. I don't believe she ever had any choices after Sham went dark. I doubt if fighting for her marriage ever crossed her mind as a possibility.


Again I agree entirely but how do you get around it?

I mean, Sham`s had to go cold himself just to deal with it.
The darkness may have taken any possible R off the table but the pain he would have went through without it just wouldn`t be acceptable to me.

Now, in order to get the closure you speak of Chapparal (which I`d like to see too) he`d have to open himself up to an ice cold dagger or three. He`d have to show some beta which wouldn`t be a bad thing if Sham`s wife wasn`t who she is.

Throughout this entire thing any sign of possible compromise on Shams part was nothing but an opening for her to screw him some more.

She has responded to his darkness and strength in a manner that is acceptable to him but I can't see her being able to get over her pride in order to offer remorse, honesty, or compassion if he opened up to her again.

I`m not arguing with you Chapparal, I`d like to see some closure or remorse just as you would.
I just can`t figure out how without Sham opening himself up for another knife twist


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Sham: one question for you, if I may - what does your stbxW do for a living (job title/role/industry) - kinda curious to map this to her Alpha-ness. She's not a Project Manager by any chance is she?


Let's just say project manager is a good description - she works on-site and juggles all the logistics while telling everyone else what happens until the job is done. Sorry, it's a small world, for the sake of anonymity I can't give any more detail.

Oh, and I now know DB McGee was definitely not her first mistake...just the first she planned out and fully consummated. She was gone long before I had any clue. Good thing I got tested.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

Shamwow said:


> Oh, and I now know DB McGee was definitely not her first mistake...just the first she planned out and fully consummated. She was gone long before I had any clue. Good thing I got tested.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


How did you find this out?

Who, where and when?

Did I miss something?


----------



## Shamwow

From the last time I grabbed texts (5 weeks ago-ish?). References to the dude I had come to suspect. Because earlier texts had referenced him in a negative, advantage-taking kinda way I wasn't surprised to see it clearer that she had been feeling guilty about making out w him - yes, while fantastically drunk, most likely at that company party on the west coast that I didn't attend w her in December. She doesnt know i'm aware of that or any other indiscretions (besides DB). No reason to tell her now, as R would be the only reason to bust her further and discuss. Though I'm sure she wonders if I know everything, as she doesnt know how I got my info, just that I got a lot of it without her knowing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Maybe after the papers are fully done and you are officially divorced, send her flowers nd a card saying,n" btw, in case you ever wonder. I did learn about everything that went on."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

YES!! I knew IT! Its amazing how those little mannerisms mean so much when looking back in retrospect. 

Sham: Glad u r in a better place now!


----------



## Dadof3

Shaggy said:


> Maybe after the papers are fully done and you are officially divorced, send her flowers nd a card saying,n" btw, in case you ever wonder. I did learn about everything that went on."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If I could augment your suggestion shaggy, I would make sure the flowers (or roses) are wilted / dead with the card.

Very POWERFUL message.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Let's just say project manager is a good description - she works on-site and juggles all the logistics while telling everyone else what happens until the job is done. Sorry, it's a small world, for the sake of anonymity I can't give any more detail.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sham: I'm taking over a small sub-project soon for a government contracting entity and I'm concerned that I might run into her, so I'd thought I'd ask. Please - keep your anonymity. I'm just gauging my level of paranoia here. Thanks!


----------



## Shamwow

No worries Dad. Nothing govt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## F-102

Dadof3 said:


> I'm not exactly convinced through all the bravado and pride that she really wants to let Sham go, either.
> 
> My wife asked how this saga was going last night - I gave her Sham's update and she agrees that as a woman in this position - she's holding on to Sham as long as she can.


I agree that she is still holding on. If she really was as vindictive as she has shown herself to be, (and I wouldn't put it past her), she may be taking full advantage of Sham's honorable nature by dragging her feet in order to keep him from getting full closure and preventing him from being able to move on in the foreseeable future, thus, she will still keep some level of control over him.

Say Sham, do you think she has the info on you and your new prospects in the romance department, and she is trying to sabotage it? In other words, "He ruined my life, so I'm going to ruin his"?


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Let's just say project manager is a good description - she works on-site and juggles all the logistics while telling everyone else what happens until the job is done. Sorry, it's a small world, for the sake of anonymity I can't give any more detail.
> 
> Oh, and I now know DB McGee was definitely not her first mistake...just the first she planned out and fully consummated. She was gone long before I had any clue. Good thing I got tested.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


from Marriage Builders:

"A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof." 

Long distance relationships have almost no chance of working. Throw in alchol and I would say no chance at all.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> from Marriage Builders:
> 
> "A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof."
> 
> Long distance relationships have almost no chance of working. Throw in alchol and I would say no chance at all.


True, that makes a lot of sense. But for the record, we hardly spent a night apart for the first 5 years we were together. Only then did her work start taking her on short excursions (5-7 days every month or two) and then last year turned into longer and longer trips. At that point I should have put my foot down or laid serious additional boundaries...I didn't. Everything felt fine. I won't ever make that mistake again.

We were each others' exclusive leisure-time companion until last year when she inevitably made many new friends on the road without me there.

When the trips got really long, she kept saying "now is the time to do this, in a couple years I'll probably want to be behind a desk in one place", so it was framed as a temporary thing that was important to her and her career.


----------



## Shamwow

But yeah, the alcohol thing on the road was a massive catalyst for disaster. No use stressing over it now though, she chose her path and I chose mine. Never envisioned it happening this way, but I'm in a good place with it now, and can only use it as a learning experience.

Date w little red tonight, btw.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> True, that makes a lot of sense. But for the record, we hardly spent a night apart for the first 5 years we were together. Only then did her work start taking her on short excursions (5-7 days every month or two) and then last year turned into longer and longer trips. At that point I should have put my foot down or laid serious additional boundaries...I didn't. Everything felt fine. I won't ever make that mistake again.
> 
> We were each others' exclusive leisure-time companion until last year when she inevitably made many new friends on the road without me there.
> 
> When the trips got really long, she kept saying "now is the time to do this, in a couple years I'll probably want to be behind a desk in one place", so it was framed as a temporary thing that was important to her and her career.


It certainly turned out to be important to her. Her whole life as she knew it is gone now.


----------



## Shaggy

Definite upgrade for sham,a little red head always trumps a drunk w$&$re
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Touche Shaggy. Touche.


----------



## martyc47

chapparal said:


> Long distance relationships have almost no chance of working. Throw in alchol and I would say no chance at all.


Yep. This is one of the things I was implying in a post awhile back. I didn't want to get into it too much because I was trying to remain neutral and Sham seems to be doing well getting on with the D. For any possible R, I think a lifestyle change would be an absolute requirement to even try, among others.

I have grown from ( naively) assuming cheating was a fairly rare thing in general to believing that in any relationship with one spouse on the road ( touring musician or athlete, especially) , infidelity is probably close to 100%. It's part of that lifestyle. Unless the relationship is REALLY strong and the other spouse tags along and/or the trips are short and they meet up frequently. I'm sure some will disagree and say they "have" to travel to take care of their families or whatever, but this is obviously not the case in Sham's situation.

Congrats to Sham for being strong and manning-up and moving forward. I'm sure there are still feelings for the wife, but she would have to change way too much for a R to even have a chance, and I'm sure Sham doesn't want to be one her backup booty-calls.


----------



## Chaparral

martyc47 said:


> Yep. This is one of the things I was implying in a post awhile back. I didn't want to get into it too much because I was trying to remain neutral and Sham seems to be doing well getting on with the D. For any possible R, I think a lifestyle change would be an absolute requirement to even try, among others.
> 
> I have grown from ( naively) assuming cheating was a fairly rare thing in general to believing that in any relationship with one spouse on the road ( touring musician or athlete, especially) , infidelity is probably close to 100%. It's part of that lifestyle. Unless the relationship is REALLY strong and the other spouse tags along and/or the trips are short and they meet up frequently. I'm sure some will disagree and say they "have" to travel to take care of their families or whatever, but this is obviously not the case in Sham's situation.
> 
> Congrats to Sham for being strong and manning-up and moving forward. I'm sure there are still feelings for the wife, but she would have to change way too much for a R to even have a chance, and I'm sure Sham doesn't want to be one her backup booty-calls.


You know,if she quit the traveling, she could probably be a good wife to Sham. Bit the road she's on now I can't imagine what kind of loser would be dumb enough to marry her in her current situation. She sure as hell isn't going to land a decent alph male.

I don't see Sham coming to her rescue either. For a smart woman she sure as he!! is having a hard time seeing what her future is ging to look like. As a matter of fact, she seems to be bailing on anything that would tie her to one place.

I guess aging ,roving, party girl (bar fly) is her goal now.


----------



## Shamwow

Great weekend so far.

STBXW stirred the pot a bit this morning though. Got a text from her saying she seems to have a problem with drinking and is getting help. Who knows what that means exactly, but she must be having a rough time on her trip. Or she's trying to mess w me and get me to jump into caretaker mode. I wish I could not feel sorry for her, but if that's the case I do. Just being honest. Anyway, I simply asked her if she was okay and she said Yeah. End of text convo.

Then 10 minutes later I get a call from one of my college buddies (the one I roadtripped to see out of town the week after I left W in August), saying she had just called him (she still had his number from a trip we had all taken a few years ago). Asking for advice on areas to live in the city he lives in, that she may have a job coming up that will require her to move there for a few months. Not sure if there's truth to that, but whatever. That said, he saw me right after the SHTF and knows what she did to me and our marriage. So it was a tad awkward, but he did talk to her. She told him she had asked me if it was okay to contact him...which she hadn't. Then literally while he's telling me that on the phone she texts me to say she contacted him about _____(city), and hope that was okay.

Here's the deal. She knows just as many people in that city as I do. Yet she calls one of my oldest and most loyal friends for advice on housing. I call BS. I guess I don't really care, but there's no reason other than to get my attention, even a little.

Then she texts again asking how a specific recent job went for me - I haven't told her about any jobs in the last few months, last thing she needs to know is how my finances are. But I suppose she hears snippets from mutual friends...even though I'm careful with them I suppose this goes to show ANY and all details are passed on to her, regardless if they're important. I will be more careful. Anyway, didn't respond.

Then she mentions the job prospect she has in ____(my friend's city). I just responded with Cool. 

So anyway, prob not worth posting about, just updating. She's trying to stir things up by contacting MY old friends and gain some sympathy from me? Well, clearly by me posting this she may have succeeded at least a little...but that doesn't mean she needs to know that. Sign the papers please. So we can all move on.

Lunch w little red in an hour.


----------



## Dadof3

Delay tactics. You may try to see if you can get the judge to sign. Geesh. Drinkin' problem? Ya think?? I think you just got your apology. Too bad it wasn't a real one.

Now manipulating you through old college buddies. She's a piece of work!

Sham - Are you surprised?


----------



## justsumchik

Why do you call your new friend 'little' all the time? Just curious, it sounds kind of condescending whenever I read it so I thought id ask if there was a simple explanation...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

justsumchik said:


> Why do you call your new friend 'little' all the time? Just curious, it sounds kind of condescending whenever I read it so I thought id ask if there was a simple explanation...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No condescension intended. I'm 6'2"...she's 5'4" and I can pick her up with one arm. That's all.


----------



## justsumchik

I was hoping so, cuz I like you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

My sense is that she is casting about for ways of disrupting your new life and personal progress. I think it is mainly because she knows you are dating and that you are successfully connecting. In contrast, her life seems to be falling apart. You said that you friends are passing info to her. Why not go completely dark to your friends about your personal life until you have the papers in your hand a every i dotted and t crossed. Hint that maybe all of the women dumped you. 

I wanted to address another thing. I tell you this because i think the dire predictions that some of the posters are putting about may mess with your head. You are a good and caring man and for someone like you, it is not simple to turn off love and caring off like a switch. That is natural in human relationships. I think Morituri is a prime example - he fully admits that he loved his wife but he had to divorce for his well being. I have a feeling that your wife's journey to wholeness will be painful for you and may consume you if you let it. 

What she did was very wrong but it does not relegate her to a life of s!uthood as some of the posters seem to what to happen as punishment. She is punishing herself and when she us ready to stop she will. It is all up to her, when she changes her frame of reference her life will change just like yours has done. So before getting sucked into thinking that there is no hope for her because she is a woman and letting that play in your head just know that you are both living in the same universe. If you can change yourself and get different results then so can she.

I say this so that you don't buy into the myth that all women who cheat are destined to a life of misery and pain no more so than all men who cheat. She is stronger than she thinks and smarter too. She did a massively stupid thing to screw up her life and yours. It will be painful for her but she can recover and go onto find true love. If she continues to drink and make bad choices things will not go well. 

Her life will go well when she lets it. So be reassure that she can do exactly what you have done to recover and that you need not think she is lost forever. When you feel that you want to rescue her, just say a prayer that she will see the light by your example. But don't get entangled in a helper role. Just thoughts consider, if it fits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## morituri

Perhaps you should consider that from this point on, anytime she contacts you to end your reply with "Have you signed the papers yet?" She may feel offended and respond with a snarky comment but so what? I'm sorry to say this but you're inadvertently feeding her delusion - despite the damage she caused to you, the marriage and to herself - that the two of you can still be friends and hang out with each other every so often. It is time for you to stop being an emotional crutch to her and allow her to tackle life challenges, on her own.


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## Zzyzx

Catherine602 said:


> When you feel that you want to rescue her, just say a prayer that she will see the light by your example. *But don't get entangled in a helper role.* Just thoughts consider, if it fits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This.

If she wants R, she has to put in the work. Actions, not words.


----------



## ManDup

Catherine602 said:


> My sense is that she is casting about for ways of disrupting your new life and personal progress. I think it is mainly because she knows you are dating and that you are successfully connecting. In contrast, her life seems to be falling apart. You said that you friends are passing info to her. Why not go completely dark to your friends about your personal life until you have the papers in your hand a every i dotted and t crossed. Hint that maybe all of the women dumped you.
> 
> I wanted to address another thing. I tell you this because i think the dire predictions that some of the posters are putting about may mess with your head. You are a good and caring man and for someone like you, it is not simple to turn off love and caring off like a switch. That is natural in human relationships. I think Morituri is a prime example - he fully admits that he loved his wife but he had to divorce for his well being. I have a feeling that your wife's journey to wholeness will be painful for you and may consume you if you let it.
> 
> What she did was very wrong but it does not relegate her to a life of s!uthood as some of the posters seem to what to happen as punishment. She is punishing herself and when she us ready to stop she will. It is all up to her, when she changes her frame of reference her life will change just like yours has done. So before getting sucked into thinking that there is no hope for her because she is a woman and letting that play in your head just know that you are both living in the same universe. If you can change yourself and get different results then so can she.
> 
> I say this so that you don't buy into the myth that all women who cheat are destined to a life of misery and pain no more so than all men who cheat. She is stronger than she thinks and smarter too. She did a massively stupid thing to screw up her life and yours. It will be painful for her but she can recover and go onto find true love. If she continues to drink and make bad choices things will not go well.
> 
> Her life will go well when she lets it. So be reassure that she can do exactly what you have done to recover and that you need not think she is lost forever. When you feel that you want to rescue her, just say a prayer that she will see the light by your example. But don't get entangled in a helper role. Just thoughts consider, if it fits.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's some good perspective.


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## PHTlump

Catherine602 said:


> My sense is that she is casting about for ways of disrupting your new life and personal progress.


I agree. In her fantasy version of how things would happen, she and the original OM would arrange their divorces in secret, spring the news on their spouses, and she would live a wonderful life with Sham texting her about how lonely he is and how bad Spaghettios taste right out of the can. With Sham blowing up her affair, getting in shape, and moving on without her, she's realizing this isn't what she signed up for.



Catherine602 said:


> I have a feeling that your wife's journey to wholeness will be painful for you and may consume you if you let it.


I agree again. You can care about her and wish her the best. But, she chose this path and it means she faces life alone now. It may be inconvenient, lonely, and even brutal. But it's no longer your burden. Good job not taking the bait about her drinking problem.



Catherine602 said:


> I say this so that you don't buy into the myth that all women who cheat are destined to a life of misery and pain no more so than all men who cheat. She is stronger than she thinks and smarter too. She did a massively stupid thing to screw up her life and yours. It will be painful for her but she can recover and go onto find true love. If she continues to drink and make bad choices things will not go well.


I disagree here. The posters on this thread have not assigned her the mantle of slvt. She did that herself. She made the decision to go on the road, get hammered, and act like she's in a Girls Gone Wild video. Then, she made the decision to keep doing it. It's not misogynist to note that, disapprove of it, and point out the fact that most men aren't looking for that in a wife.

I agree that she is not beyond hope. Almost no one is. I know people happily married to their fifth or sixth spouse. But I also know that they would have lived a much happier, healthier, and more successful life if they had treated their marriages with more maturity than a 15 year-old girl trying to decide on a date to the school dance.


----------



## Catherine602

PHTlump said:


> I disagree here. The posters on this thread have not assigned her the mantle of slvt. She did that herself. She made the decision to go on the road, get hammered, and act like she's in a Girls Gone Wild video. Then, she made the decision to keep doing it. It's not misogynist to note that, disapprove of it, and point out the fact that most men aren't looking for that in a wife..


I never see a similar fervent disapproval directed towards men who do the same. Most men may not be looking for a wife with these experiences but that's what they are getting. 

Who do you think all of those players are having sex with? Women!! Do the math - if you're slapping your buddies on the back for talking 20 women into his bed, where do you think those women go when they want to get married? :scratchhead:

Right - they are some mans wife.  The high numbers guy gets to marry one and deal with the consequences of his profligate lifestyle. Women are enjoying the same privileges as men. 

You can't judge one and excuse the other, try as you might. It's coupled - unless you can find a way of sending pumped and dumped women to a desert island or brand their foreheads.


----------



## PHTlump

Catherine602 said:


> I never see a similar fervent disapproval directed towards men who do the same. Most men may not be looking for a wife with these experiences but that's what they are getting.  ...
> 
> You can't judge one and excuse the other, try as you might. It's coupled - unless you can find a way of sending pumped and dumped women to a desert island or brand their foreheads.


Where is it written that men and women must seek exactly the same things in prospective spouses? People who believe that are profoundly confused as to the psychology of men and women and should open their eyes to the nature of the real world.

I remember when I took the red pill and realized the simple fact that women aren't just men with breasts. Women have different bodies, different hormones, different brains, different attitudes, and different desires.

So the fact that there is no slvt shaming in regards to men isn't because of the patriarchy. It's because women don't view men with extensive sexual histories in a very negative way.


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## Dadof3

glad someones keeping Sham's thread alive!


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## Almostrecovered

he's too busy with Little Miss Red Writing Hood


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## Shamwow

Work mainly...kind of a dig in week. W comes home from the road today. Asked her again about the papers, she said she has two questions, will read it one more time and we'll talk today. Hopefully her two questions are just details that are easy to iron out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Hopefully her two questions are just details that are easy to iron out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you really are a half-full glass kind of guy arent you?


(I just get the feeling that she will make it a bigger issue)


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## Dadof3

Shall we predict the two questions?

1 - Who is "little red"
2 - Are you sure we can't work it out because I'm getting help for my drinkn' problem.


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## tacoma

Dadof3 said:


> Shall we predict the two questions?
> 
> 1 - Who is "little red"
> 2 - Are you sure we can't work it out because I'm getting help for my drinkn' problem.


I think whatever her questions are they will have more to do with an attempt to get some *control* of something back somehow.


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## Shamwow

Man I just have a hard time imagining her wanting to work it out guys (and I can't imagine living with her anymore either). We've been apart for months now. Guess I shouldn't expect smooth sailing though, just hopeful that we can move forward. 

I think the questions will be something about the affair expenses. The way I have it laid out is she takes the larger joint CC and I take the smaller one, from here on out...the difference covers the A expenses I discussed with her, and we verbally agreed on it, at least on the amount. Not sure if she would rather keep both CCs and cut me a check (doubt that if she's broke as she says).

Other question could be about tax payments. Somehow we have to make joint payments for the next several months, and do it together. I laid out a plan in the papers, she may have another idea.

Will know tonight. ***EDIT*** I hope.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3

Good luck Sham.


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## F-102

Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Shamwow

BAM!


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## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> BAM!


Oh Geez!


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## Almostrecovered

Your wife is banging Emeril Lagasse now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

A) BAM = I don't want a divorce, I made a mistake, can't we try to make it work!

B) BAM = I hired my own divorce attorney and we aren't willing to agree to your terms.


My guess is B!


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## Chaparral

SadSamIAm said:


> A) BAM = I don't want a divorce, I made a mistake, can't we try to make it work!
> 
> B) BAM = I hired my own divorce attorney and we aren't willing to agree to your terms.
> 
> 
> My guess is B!


Bam = She signed


----------



## WhereAmI

chapparal said:


> Bam = She signed


That's my guess!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## krismimo

SHAM Man your keeping us all in suspense UPDATE!!! UPDATE!!!!! LOL


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## Unsure in Seattle

Hopefully it's "BAM!- I'm officially divorced."


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## Shamwow

BAM = Just convo'd with W, and we'll be signing them tomorrow afternoon.

Her questions were minor, and in regards to the verbage about our responsibilities with the house.

I confirmed what she needed to know, she said "Cool". Then I said "So, since the papers are agreed on, are you ready to sign?" She said "Sure". I said "Me Too." I set up a time tomorrow afternoon to stop by, we'll sign, and I'll drop them at my attorney's office on the way home.

Gonna be officially filed on Thursday.


----------



## F-102

Alright, Sham-I can breathe again! Whoah!!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

Really thought it was Emeril
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 67flh

sham, wouldnt hurt to take someone with you when you go sign the papers. seems shes giving in way to easy.


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## Dadof3

take little red writing hood with you!


----------



## Stonewall

Dadof3 said:


> take little red writing hood with you!



That's evil but I like it!!!


----------



## F-102

Nah, take Joey Greco, Jerry Springer and Steve Wilkos!

Consider yourself lucky-you don't need Maury!


----------



## Dadof3

Everyone knows Montel Williams is king - have him bring Sylvia Browne with him to the signing. Maybe she can read the spirits to help get Sham the full confession / closure while she's at it!

LOL


----------



## Shamwow

Couple hours until the meeting to sign the papers. I can already tell this is probably going to be hard. Not because I'm not ready, but because it brings up a lot of the garbage from 5-6 months ago. W asked for a listing of A expenses from me, to justify the debt reduction on my end. I said "Really? You know what they are better than me. But if you really want I can shoot you a quick email". So I did. Kept it vague and compartmentalized ("cash from checking", "clothing/lingerie", "hotel/flights"...each with a total listed). I guess it needed to be done. Just didn't want to revisit that stuff again, and I was surprised she would.

Guess my biggest concern is how I'll feel after signing and leaving the house. I have plans tonight, and I hope to keep them. But worry I may be a tad introspective. Maybe the gun range is in order for tonight if I do go out ("Give me the loudest one you've got"). Wish me luck folks. I knew this would be a weird day, no matter the circumstances. I should hit the gym before I go do this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

I always thought I'd have some speech or letter or something prepared for this. Turns out I don't. And I'm glad. Seems like a 1.0 thing to do. Just gonna go do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Oak

You got this. You have come a long way.


----------



## Almostrecovered

ya really, speeches are for pvssies!!


I understand the mixed emotions you have, but in time you'll come to see this day as a good day


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## Dadof3

Good luck Sham! Give your STBXW a kiss on the cheek from all of us! 

Oh wait - that didn't sound good. Ummm.. Nevermind. LOL


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Couple hours until the meeting to sign the papers. I can already tell this is probably going to be hard. Not because I'm not ready, but because it brings up a lot of the garbage from 5-6 months ago. W asked for a listing of A expenses from me, to justify the debt reduction on my end. I said "Really? You know what they are better than me. But if you really want I can shoot you a quick email". So I did. Kept it vague and compartmentalized ("cash from checking", "clothing/lingerie", "hotel/flights"...each with a total listed). I guess it needed to be done. Just didn't want to revisit that stuff again, and I was surprised she would.
> 
> Guess my biggest concern is how I'll feel after signing and leaving the house. I have plans tonight, and I hope to keep them. But worry I may be a tad introspective. Maybe the gun range is in order for tonight if I do go out ("Give me the loudest one you've got"). Wish me luck folks. I knew this would be a weird day, no matter the circumstances. I should hit the gym before I go do this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quick gut check - did you also include any expenses of the other cheating episodes you mentioned a few days ago?

I have a feeling that she asked for this - not that she doesn't already know - but so she knows HOW much you know. 

I recommend that you try to trace back (if its a quick study) for all the episodes you are aware of and get them onto the list.

This will provide a bit of a parting tip-of-the-hat to her.


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> Quick gut check - did you also include any expenses of the other cheating episodes you mentioned a few days ago?
> 
> I have a feeling that she asked for this - not that she doesn't already know - but so she knows HOW much you know.
> 
> I recommend that you try to trace back (if its a quick study) for all the episodes you are aware of and get them onto the list.
> 
> This will provide a bit of a parting tip-of-the-hat to her.


I did...as best as I could. There are things that I can't get exact numbers for without subpoenaing her credit/checking statements from those months and going over them with my lawyer. So I guesstimated on those based on what I read in texts and heard from a few friends. It's good enough for me to use an educated estimate and get it over with.


----------



## SadSamIAm

Let us know how the signing goes.

I have a hard time believing that it will get done. I sure hope it does for your sake. 

Hopefully, you providing her with details on the expenses will be adequate for her. Just seems like she will be trying to find something to allow for a longer postponement.


----------



## Almostrecovered

how long after the signing does divorce become official?


----------



## Shamwow

Sheesh...why not add a twist to the morning?

W has apparently already stepped out on her new bf (HS guy) while on the road last week, she told him before she came back (perhaps that was why she texted me about drinking issues?). Not sure why W's friend told me about this - not really my business - I just said "Well that's a bummer". Perhaps her friends are less than impressed lately. But whatever. Hey - W's making progress, at least she had the decency to tell HIM what she did. SMH.

That ought to make today easier. I feel bad for my stbxw though. She's in a perpetual bad behavior/screw others over/not deal with it kind of mode. Yet she seemed in a general good mood when I talked to her yesterday about the papers. Can she really be that detached from herself? I guess so. So glad I found out who she had become and LEFT.


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> how long after the signing does divorce become official?


It'll be a day or two before a judge reads it and signs off. After that, weeks, maybe a month or two before it processes through the clerk's office and we receive the official certification documents. At least that's how I understand it as of now.

Either way, in my mind, once we both sign and file and a judge puts his stamp on it...I'm free. Hell, in my mind once I drop the signed papers at my lawyer's this afternoon it's a done deal. He has instructions to file them immediately. So assuming she doesn't pull some crap today, I should be (symbolically, and for all intents and purposes) free...as of 5pm.


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> I understand the mixed emotions you have, but in time you'll come to see this day as a good day


Red said she was of course relieved (as I am) to hear things are moving forward on the D, but wasn't sure what to say to me in this situation. (Congrats? Sorry? Onward and Upward?) I told her let's just go with "Rock on." That works for me.


----------



## Almostrecovered

so how much does Little Red Writing Hood (LRWH) know of what happened by now?


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> so how much does Little Red Writing Hood (LRWH) know of what happened by now?


Certainly not everything...But the first time we ever really sat and talked she was working at the restaurant and I was literally typing up my divorce agreement on my laptop to email my lawyer. So that's been out there since day one.

Since then I've told her to ask anything she wants to know, and I've been open with her when she does. But I don't vent and go on and on about it, no one needs that mess...plus I don't really feel like dwelling on it when I'm with her...at all. She takes it off my mind. So she's in the loop by all means, but, for example, has not seen my threads here. Nor has anyone else, friends or family. Kind of my little therapeutic secret.


----------



## Almostrecovered

yeah well, showing these threads isn't a great idea....


sounds like a good plan in the way you've handled it because the relationship needs to be focused on you two rather than you and your stbx


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

Good luck!


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> yeah well, showing these threads isn't a great idea....
> 
> 
> sounds like a good plan in the way you've handled it because the relationship needs to be focused on you two rather than you and your stbx


AGREED. Trust me when I say I'm very conscious of how I present this madness...she needs to know enough to be comfortable that I'm being honest with her. And she only really asks questions that are valid for anyone considering a relationship with someone new - especially with the waning sh*tstorm like the one I've weathered drifting off into the distance.

Sorry for the poetic take. Waning Sh*tstorm...good name for an album.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Sheesh...why not add a twist to the morning?
> 
> W has apparently already stepped out on her new bf (HS guy) while on the road last week, she told him before she came back (perhaps that was why she texted me about drinking issues?). Not sure why W's friend told me about this - not really my business - I just said "Well that's a bummer". Perhaps her friends are less than impressed lately. But whatever. Hey - W's making progress, at least she had the decency to tell HIM what she did. SMH.
> 
> That ought to make today easier. I feel bad for my stbxw though. She's in a perpetual bad behavior/screw others over/not deal with it kind of mode. Yet she seemed in a general good mood when I talked to her yesterday about the papers. Can she really be that detached from herself? I guess so. So glad I found out who she had become and LEFT.




Bless her heart, she sounds like a full blown alcoholic. 

If it were me I wouldn't be able to resist asking her what she would do differently if she had the chance. Although I doubt I would believe much of what she told me, it would still be revealing


----------



## Dadof3

chapparal said:


> Bless her heart, she sounds like a full blown alcoholic.
> 
> If it were me I wouldn't be able to resist asking her what she would do differently if she had the chance. Although I doubt I would believe much of what she told me, it would still be revealing


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Or as we, in project management, do a "post-mortem" or lessons learned meeting. Take her to the bar - oops - wait to a church - nope - park! and talk about what woulda / could / shoulda been done differently. 

Nope - nevermind - she should be a small spec in your rear view mirror when you get that signature.  :rofl::smthumbup:


----------



## Almostrecovered

I would say, "Have a nice life" as I left the meeting


----------



## Dadof3

Or ask her if she wants a cat or two.


----------



## Almostrecovered




----------



## Dadof3

Or something like - "Occifer - I swear to drunk that I'm not G*d!"


----------



## Cypress

Sham,

I've been following your thread since it started. I'm very impressed how you've handled this very difficult situation. How is your family handling it? What have they said about WW and her antics?

Cypress


----------



## Shamwow

Thanks Cypress. My family is handling it well. I've had to restrain my mom from contacting W though...she says she just wants to send her a note to say she's sad things turned out this way, etc. I asked her to wait until things are final, and to not hold her breath waiting for a response even then. (mom and W "tolerated" each other...can't imagine a note from her in Aug or Sept would have helped the situation much)

Anyway, they're all supportive and are glad I'm handling it the way I am. Good enough for me.

Don't know about W's family...haven't spoken with them since the day after I left in Aug. I was very close with her folks...so that's been hard. Would like to say goodbye to them, but don't feel it's right. Alright did say goodbye when I talked with them in Aug. Just another bummer in the whole deal I guess.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Anubis

You're doing fine Sham. It's going to be a bit surreal of a day by definition. You've handled yourself phenomenally well so far, even if it doesn't feel as solid to you (we always are our own harshest critics).


----------



## Almostrecovered

I assume it's done by now?


----------



## Dadof3

One hopes that sham is finally getting or had a Paul Harvey moment at this signing for closure. 

If so, we may not hear from him for a bit while he digests and settles with the emotions.


----------



## Shamwow

No Paul Harvey moment...fairly emotionless for us both. She was cordial, so was I. We signed. Then chatted for about 30 minutes about nothing of consequence (pleasantries...hope your folks are good, etc). Then I left. Done deal! Not freaking or anything. Feel great. They are dropped at the attorney's office and will be filed tomorrow. Couldn't have gone smoother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tacoma

Shamwow said:


> No Paul Harvey moment...fairly emotionless for us both. She was cordial, so was I. We signed. Then chatted for about 30 minutes about nothing of consequence (pleasantries...hope your folks are good, etc). Then I left. Done deal! Not freaking or anything. Feel great. They are dropped at the attorney's office and will be filed tomorrow. Couldn't have gone smoother.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Congrats Sham!!


----------



## F-102

"It's something unpredictable,
but in the ends is right,
I hope you had the time of your life."

Green Day


----------



## krismimo

Sham happy to hear that your doing fine although it can be a somber and sad thing at least you made the right choice.


----------



## lordmayhem

Shamwow said:


> Thanks Cypress. My family is handling it well. I've had to restrain my mom from contacting W though...she says she just wants to send her a note to say she's sad things turned out this way, etc. I asked her to wait until things are final, and to not hold her breath waiting for a response even then. (mom and W "tolerated" each other...can't imagine a note from her in Aug or Sept would have helped the situation much)
> 
> Anyway, they're all supportive and are glad I'm handling it the way I am. Good enough for me.
> 
> Don't know about W's family...haven't spoken with them since the day after I left in Aug. I was very close with her folks...so that's been hard. Would like to say goodbye to them, but don't feel it's right. Alright did say goodbye when I talked with them in Aug. Just another bummer in the whole deal I guess.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sad to see that you had to go thru this, like my ex-wife, your WW never even made any real attempt to R. You will go on to find someone else. Just be careful about any rebound relationships. I ended up marrying my rebound girl, and 21 years later, she had an EA on me. So there's really no guarantee of an infidelity-free next marriage.


----------



## Shamwow

Mayhem - yeah, no big remorseful anything from W. I guess that's okay at this point. We're gonna do this the way we're gonna do it, and I can't force her to feel, or at least tell me about it. Most of what she tells me is related to her, and the mess she's in...she's not saying it in a mean way, just clearly realizing that while this sucks for us both, she's coming out on the bottom end of this, logisitically and emotionally.

She never responded or questioned the list of A expenses that I gave her, so I can only take that as an admission of defeat in what I know about it.

Either way, it's done and filed now, so time to look forward.

I'll do my best to avoid rebound pitfalls, but honestly have no idea what to expect. How do you separate true feelings for someone new with feelings that seem true, but may just be tied to the thrill of a new connection after losing one? From what I understand the dopamine reaction is the same, and it's REALLY FUN. So to have to second guess myself is a little unusual. Used to just going with it...I suppose I'll just take things slow (reasonably) and try to be careful...


----------



## Shaggy

Sham, it maybe time to block her number from your phone and to set a mail filter on her. I mean you don't hang out with a tumor after you have it cut out.

Maybe you'll run into her one day years down the road after she's had years of her drinking problem and being the party tramp and be shocked at how badly she has aged.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

How old is Little Red?


----------



## Catherine602

Shaggy said:


> Sham, it maybe time to block her number from your phone and to set a mail filter on her. I mean you don't hang out with a tumor after you have it cut out.
> 
> Maybe you'll run into her one day years down the road after she's had years of her drinking problem and being the party tramp and be shocked at how badly she has aged.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or maybe she will be fit and happy and the wiser for the mess she made of her life. Best to hope the best for her. Fate is strange whose knows, in the years to come Sham may be fat and bald and on his 3rd wife. It happens. 

Although I can understand the sympathy for Sham do we have to go to the [email protected] word? No one calls men pigs who have sex when they want. In fact if i remember there have been more than one post egging Sham to have lots of sex with radom women. Wouldn't he be a pig and destined to live in a rooming house with Fido for a friend? 

Is that for all women, or just women who are not interested in having sex with the judges?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shaggy

Catherine602 said:


> Although I can understand the sympathy for Sham do we have to go to the [email protected] word? No one calls men pigs who have sex when they want. In fact if i remember there have been more than one post egging Sham to have lots of sex with radom women. Wouldn't he be a pig and destined to live in a rooming house with Fido for a friend?
> 
> Is that for all women, or just women who are not interested in having sex with the judges?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In this case the issue is she cheated on sham. It appears several times, and has already cheated on the high school guy. So I stand by my assessment.

@sham, live well. And thanks for staying here long enough to let us hear the whole tale even if it ended differently than you first hoped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> How old is Little Red?


31
Never married, but close
Wants kids
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Catherine602 said:


> Or maybe she will be fit and happy and the wiser for the mess she made of her life. Best to hope the best for her. Fate is strange whose knows, in the years to come Sham may be fat and bald and on his 3rd wife. It happens.
> 
> Although I can understand the sympathy for Sham do we have to go to the [email protected] word? No one calls men pigs who have sex when they want. In fact if i remember there have been more than one post egging Sham to have lots of sex with radom women. Wouldn't he be a pig and destined to live in a rooming house with Fido for a friend?
> 
> Is that for all women, or just women who are not interested in having sex with the judges?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no ill wishes for my STBXW's future, and she certainly is capable of being upstanding and sincere, trust me, I married her...the bottom line is that she has been acting like Shaggy describes. She isn't doomed to that life, and will most likely not end up that way. But being the drunk girl at the hotel bar needing help back to her room and not remembering exactly what happened the night before is exactly the type of woman that gets labeled that way. Especially since she's married. And where I come from, men who act like that ARE labeled pigs. But that's not me in this situation and that's why people are speaking from a one-sided perspective.

I don't call her a [email protected], don't like hearing others say it either...but I can't deny that's how she's chosen to act for a while now. It's not a lifetime label, but currently I can't argue it. I certainly didn't like having to find out all the things she said and did while lying to me for months and months...but she said and did those things. She's lonely and kicking herself right now, and it's hard for me to hear that, but she hasn't broken the cycle and grown from this one bit if she's already effed up on the road last week and alienated her new bf by drinking and fooling around with some a-hole. (BTW - from what I understand, it's the same a-hole that probably started this mess with her in Dec at that company party. He is the original D-Bag, not married and IS a total pig. His rep has always preceded him, and he has powerful friends, so gets away with trolling for lonely women and using them.)


----------



## Chaparral

Put him on Cheaterville.com.


----------



## tacoma

chapparal said:


> Put him on Cheaterville.com.


God I hate that site.


----------



## aug

Shamwow said:


> 31
> Never married, but close
> Wants kids
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



make sure her ex is dead or committed in an asylum.


----------



## morituri

Sham you are a class act, a credit to our gender.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I feel like I just put down a long and captivating chapter book. I know the epilog is still to come but I have a feeling that Sham will be riding off into the sunset soon.


----------



## PHTlump

Catherine602 said:


> No one calls men pigs who have sex when they want.


That's true. Is the fact that women find experienced men attractive proof that women are more fair-minded than men? Or is it indicative of women preferring different attributes in sexual partners than men do? If it is proof that they are more fair-minded, why is it that women tend to be forgiving on the same kinds of traits and less forgiving of others?

For example, why are women more forgiving toward men who are experienced sexually, but less forgiving toward shy men?



Catherine602 said:


> In fact if i remember there have been more than one post egging Sham to have lots of sex with radom women. Wouldn't he be a pig and destined to live in a rooming house with Fido for a friend?


If he wants to limit his future relationships to the small percentage of women who insist on limited sexual experience in men, then yes. He would be harming his prospects. If he's willing to consider relationships with most women, who don't regard sexual experience as negative, then no.


----------



## DailyGrind

Almostrecovered said:


> I feel like I just put down a long and captivating chapter book. I know the epilog is still to come but I have a feeling that Sham will be riding off into the sunset soon.


Tell me about it. I just spent the better part of the last two days, reading the entire 2-volume post! Wow. Heart was pounding during the whole thing. Hard to believe this was just the past few months. It was like watching a slow-moving train wreck. Reading in catch-up mode was maybe worse. Could see the crash coming...but...powerless to stop it.

Sham - Wow...what a story. As much as my heart has been torn apart the past few years......I can't imagine it being ripped out, spit on, stomped upon, sliced in pieces...and thrown back into its' original cavity.....as was yours. The entire story was both painfull to follow....but also...inspiring to see one can survive. But then....survival isn't quite the mission, is it. I hope your heart heals, and can feel the warmth (again) that only a loving/trusting partner can provide. 

I hope you continue this saga (though...I wouldn't know what topic to continue it under.) I'm sure we are all curious how the Sham 2.0 makes out, in life. And, let's face it.....we ALL want to know what happens to the Ex. I'm sure most of us secretly wish the ending scene opens to reveal her deep inside some gothic convent, wearing a comfortable (but plain) habit...washing a mound of dishes.......


----------



## tacoma

Put a new thread under this one...

Life After Divorce


----------



## krismimo

How goes it sham?


----------



## Almostrecovered

krismimo said:


> How goes it sham?


----------



## Shamwow

Quick question - anyone else ever have bouts of feeling sorry for their WS?

I'm having a great time with Red and we're making plans for a trip in the near future, etc...and it seems like at the moment my anger is tapped out for what my STBXW did, and today I'm thinking about her situation...how embarrassed she must be, how her friends and coworkers and parents know she effed up her life over a few lousy lays and a fantasy (even if she was planning to leave me at the time), how as a result she now drives a comical beater car that takes two people to fill up at the gas station (one pushing the gas cap button and one prying the gas cap open), has 10 years of bad credit coming up and most likely a bankruptcy in the next few months...all of it. Perhaps she just hasn't been a b**** to me lately, so I'm feeling something besides anger and justification?

All of that said, I'm surprised she's keeping it together as well as she is - at least at the moment. Sure, she's been drinking too much (though is supposedly not keeping any wine in the house anymore) and is busy with work again, but I put myself in her shoes today and it SUCKS. I bet she wants her life back...but she CAN'T HAVE IT. Because she was bored and horny and some douche stoked the fire, and her "friends" and coworkers encouraged her to act so incredibly hurtfully to me, and to herself. Just stupid.

Why on earth do people do these things to themselves??


----------



## Dadof3

I'm not a karma believer, but it sure looks like karma mack truck ran her over. 

It's a matter of personal integrity. I say if you go back to her childhood where her parents shielded her from the all of the consequences they could. This usually forms a person who doesn't think they can do any wrong - even if they promised before God and all that they would be faithful, loyal, and true. 

Sorry for you, Sham.


----------



## OutOfTheBlue

Shamwow said:


> Quick question - anyone else ever have bouts of feeling sorry for their WS?


My journey is shorter than yours but I have thoughts of sympathy towards my W. The problem is, I have always had these thoughts. She came from a troubled background and I have always been the one to sort the problems. I have always made exceptions because of her background, made excuses for her behaviour and I have even shouldered the blame when it was not me at fault.

I think I am now paying the price for not dealing with the problem at the outset.


----------



## MrQuatto

Sham, it is not unusal to feel sorry for her at this stage. The scars are still quite fresh for you and she WAS the person you committed your life to. That takes time to move beyond and you can't help but wonder why someone would do something so damaging to themselves.

As for her getting on right now, she basically told you she wanted a life apart from you and screw you if you don't like it. Now, she has to paint the rosy picture of not only being ok, but actually being happier now, just to show YOU she made the right choice. Chances are, she will have a very hard fall when she finally stops kidding herself and accpets the reality of what she did, if she ever accepts it.

Q~


----------



## F-102

Oh well, she can remind herself that it never had to happen. She had a wonderful man and a great home, but...

...it never had to happen.


----------



## harusty

Sham, have you ever heard about the 5 stages of grief or DABDA? Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I think you are at the stage of acceptance. I've been divorced from my first wife for 21 years now and she is still imploding on a daily basis. She has burned every bridge in her life and still refuses to do any introspection. I spent years worrying about her and wondering when she would wake up and change, not for me or anyone else, but for her own good. It still hasn't happened and probably never will. I think that there is a sixth stage when you just don't give a damn anymore. I'm done worrying about it but it's still astonishing to watch someone that I once loved dearly make horrible choice after horrible choice to the point where she has nothing to show for her life but broken promises and regrets. I hope that your STBXW doesn't end up like mine. She probably won't, my case is rather extreme but only she can make those choices for herself. It's really rather cool to see that you have gone through this as quickly as you have. It's all down hill from here for you. Hang in there and God bless.


----------



## Unsure in Seattle

You can feel sorry, but never forget that she utterly and completely brought this on herself. It's her bed; she made it and gets to lay in it, too.


----------



## Dadof3

Most likely for the first time in her life, she hasn't been shielded from the consequences that naturally come from her choices. 

If she is a smart, bright, capable person - she will learn from this experience and grow, and change. If not - she'll probably be similar to Harusty's ex, drowning in the bottle cause she screwed up and lost the best thing that ever happened to her.


----------



## Dadof3

Based on her actions since DDay, I'm going to vote that she won't learn and adapt from this experience. She hasn't hit BOTTOM yet.

I do find it pretty amusing that she has to drive a car that requires 2 people to fill the gas tank though. Makes me feel better about my 97 chevy astro van that requires 2 people to open the hood!

Keep smilin'!


----------



## Shamwow

Yeah, I wonder if it's too soon to say I'm at the Acceptance stage of DABDA, but I guess it's possible if I'm done bargaining and am not feeling depressed or angry anymore. That said, my therapist told me that the thing about the 5 stages is that you continue to cycle through them over the process. Whee! Can't wait for round 2, if that's true...sheesh.

Anyway, yeah I hope her life doesn't devolve into complete s***, but not much I can do about it either way. I hope she talks to her family eventually...she told me she hasn't seen them (and has barely talked to them) since I left. She isn't even going to see them at Thanksgiving...says she's not ready to see them yet. That blew me away, tbh. The two people who would support her no matter what, her parents, and she's still avoiding dealing with them because she's embarrassed.

Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving y'all, hope we all remember the countless good things we have in our lives.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dadof3

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

One note on your STBX and her parents. Are you sure she somehow isn't also angry at them? It's her fault for the choices she's made, but are you sure there isn't some family history you don't know about that she learned it was OK to have something on the side?

Obviously she'll be embarrassed too, but consider the possibility.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Yeah, I wonder if it's too soon to say I'm at the Acceptance stage of DABDA, but I guess it's possible if I'm done bargaining and am not feeling depressed or angry anymore. That said, my therapist told me that the thing about the 5 stages is that you continue to cycle through them over the process. Whee! Can't wait for round 2, if that's true...sheesh.
> 
> Anyway, yeah I hope her life doesn't devolve into complete s***, but not much I can do about it either way. I hope she talks to her family eventually...she told me she hasn't seen them (and has barely talked to them) since I left. She isn't even going to see them at Thanksgiving...says she's not ready to see them yet. That blew me away, tbh. The two people who would support her no matter what, her parents, and she's still avoiding dealing with them because she's embarrassed.
> 
> Anyway, Happy Thanksgiving y'all, hope we all remember the countless good things we have in our lives.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's pretty much screwed Thanksgiving up too. Christmas is bound to be worse. This is a very sad thing. It would be great if people would just stop and think how their actions are going to play out down the road.

I pity her but pity won't help her. Maybe a prayer or two.


----------



## F-102

Nothing from Sham in a few days...is that a good thing?


----------



## tacoma

F-102 said:


> Nothing from Sham in a few days...is that a good thing?


It works for me.
It means he's got better things to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Stonewall

Understandable, even though she dumped on like a big dog; y'all had a life together. Its a sign of a healthy psyche to occasionally have feelings like that as well.


----------



## krismimo

SHAM hope you had a nice thanksgiving and jsut curious in how your holding up these days


----------



## Shamwow

Hey Kris - having a great week...road trip. Took a week off work. Will check in before I get home on Sunday. Doing good, thanks! Leaving the world behind for a few days...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## krismimo

you deserve it have a great trip!!


----------



## F-102

Woot!!!


----------



## Shamwow

Back home...had an awesome roadtrip. Red joined me. Celebrating the signed and filed papers. We spent 6 days in a car together and survived. Flourished, actually. Ballsy move, I know. But totally worth it.

My therapist says he's happy for me. And that I've totally ignored his advice, and should be dating, but have plenty of grieving left to do before I spend that much time delving into a new relationship. Eh. I'm as cautious and open as I can possibly be with her. Mk II is enjoying his new options and life. I'm on good terms (considering) with my stbxw, we're both moving on in our own ways. Therapist is a good guy. But I've only known him for a few months...and once a week...for $135 a pop. So take that for what it's worth. Had a blast on the trip.

Call from the lawyer today. Divorce got kicked back from the judge because stbxw fired her lawyer (going with my guy only, because we're agreed on the terms), and now they need new papers signed without him listed on there...judge wants to make sure she isn't getting screwed by using my lawyer only. UGH. Talked to stbxw and we both actually laughed. It's kind of at the point where we both just wanna submit a note to the state saying "HEY. We're in agreement here, and actually okay with what we submitted. Can we please have a friggin divorce???". Now I have to pay my lawyer more money to re-configure the papers and then we both have to sign AGAIN. This is stupid. But whatever.

Hit the gym like a mad man today, sweated like a wildebeast. So ready for this divorce I can't even describe it. Sad state of affairs still, sure. But in the classic American parlance of our times: IT IS WHAT IT IS. I need to be done now. So does she.

Come on, STATE!!


----------



## joe kidd

Great to hear sham. Hope you have a great Christmas, Kwanza or what ever it is that makes you merry. LOL


----------



## Chaparral

You go dude. My hats off to you. Hug Little Red for me.


----------



## Shamwow

joe kidd said:


> Great to hear sham. Hope you have a great Christmas, Kwanza or what ever it is that makes you merry. LOL


Christmas'll do fine. Got a 2-ft Christmas tree for the apartment. Woo!


----------



## F-102

Glad to hear your life is going well, Sham.
But your STBXW firing her lawyer at the last minute sounds ominous. This could be a "foot dragging" ploy by her to delay the D. Depending on what state you're in, you may still be financially responsible for her, (i.e., credit card debts she is probably racking up right now), and because you are STILL legally married...


----------



## Almostrecovered

F-102
she fired the lawyer because she decided it would be cheaper to just sign the agreement from Sham, this was mentioned some pages back


----------



## Dadof3

Yea, she must have had some guilt about shackling fellow citizens with the total cost of her affairs and divorce through the bankruptcy.


----------



## krismimo

How goes it sham, hope your doing alright.


----------



## ManDup

Shamwow said:


> Certainly not everything...But the first time we ever really sat and talked she was working at the restaurant and I was literally typing up my divorce agreement on my laptop to email my lawyer. So that's been out there since day one.
> 
> Since then I've told her to ask anything she wants to know, and I've been open with her when she does. But I don't vent and go on and on about it, no one needs that mess...plus I don't really feel like dwelling on it when I'm with her...at all. She takes it off my mind. So she's in the loop by all means, but, for example, has not seen my threads here. Nor has anyone else, friends or family. Kind of my little therapeutic secret.


 He's having an emotional affair with us!


----------



## ManDup

Shamwow said:


> Back home...had an awesome roadtrip. Red joined me. Celebrating the signed and filed papers. We spent 6 days in a car together and survived. Flourished, actually. Ballsy move, I know. But totally worth it.
> 
> My therapist says he's happy for me. And that I've totally ignored his advice, and should be dating, but have plenty of grieving left to do before I spend that much time delving into a new relationship. Eh. I'm as cautious and open as I can possibly be with her. Mk II is enjoying his new options and life. I'm on good terms (considering) with my stbxw, we're both moving on in our own ways. Therapist is a good guy. But I've only known him for a few months...and once a week...for $135 a pop. So take that for what it's worth. Had a blast on the trip.
> 
> Call from the lawyer today. Divorce got kicked back from the judge because stbxw fired her lawyer (going with my guy only, because we're agreed on the terms), and now they need new papers signed without him listed on there...judge wants to make sure she isn't getting screwed by using my lawyer only. UGH. Talked to stbxw and we both actually laughed. It's kind of at the point where we both just wanna submit a note to the state saying "HEY. We're in agreement here, and actually okay with what we submitted. Can we please have a friggin divorce???". Now I have to pay my lawyer more money to re-configure the papers and then we both have to sign AGAIN. This is stupid. But whatever.
> 
> Hit the gym like a mad man today, sweated like a wildebeast. So ready for this divorce I can't even describe it. Sad state of affairs still, sure. But in the classic American parlance of our times: IT IS WHAT IT IS. I need to be done now. So does she.
> 
> Come on, STATE!!


Yeah, don't move too fast with the Red thing, make sure of two things: one, you're not blinding yourself to Red's actual self just because you are used to being a couple. Look very carefully for red flags. You don't have to break up with her if you find any, but file them away for later. 

two, make sure you reconcile your newfound power with your ability to wield it. You have discovered just how strong you are, now be very careful not to use it to run over someone else. Good women do exist in the world, so don't over-apply the alpha to one and beat her down. Spiderman rule applies here.


----------



## Shamwow

ManDup said:


> He's having an emotional affair with us!


Ha! While I can see situations where opening up one's thread to family/friends could be beneficial, mine is not one of them. At least not now. For any reason. Taking a weeklong road trip with Red was ballsy enough, thank you very much!! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrQuatto

Sham, hope all is well and you have nice, quiet, laid back plans for the hols without any STBXW Drama.

Happy Holidays!

Q~


----------



## Shamwow

Thanks Quatto! Yeah, flying to visit my folks for Christmas, will definitely be laid back. Prob the best way to spend the holidays, first one on my own since 2002. 

P.S. Judge has signed our papers, just waiting for processing and final decree. New Year, indeed. Hope everyone has a great week!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Hey all,

Odd that this seems to have such limited fanfare in my life right now, but I am officially divorced. Got word from the lawyer that it was entered and decreed the other day.

Weird? Yes. Painful? Not so much actually. Okay, sure I got a little down for a day or two after I got the confirmation - 8 years with someone isn't trivial - but it felt more reflective than anything...life is feeling great right now and I wouldn't change my decisions. So I now have an ex, and we get along "okay" which is good, because we have more business to finish up.

The house sold, was approved by the bank on a short sale (lost a pile on the house but the bank is eating it due to my XW's "hardship".)...so honestly we're pretty much off the hook. Shocking actually. Friggin miracle.

So this is where things are at. I'm unmarried, going into the new year and can do whatever I want. Not a bad thing. I lost a marriage. But I have my friends. And my dogs. I have work. I have my dignity. Still going to the gym. And things have been going great with Red, so I have to say I'm feeling pretty good overall.

Happy New Year, y'all. May 2012 beat the s**t out of 2011 for everyone.


----------



## Shamwow

Ex W just sent this to me:

Gotye- Somebody That I Used To Know (feat. Kimbra)- official film clip (HD) - YouTube

One last parting shot, or something heartfelt...who the hell knows. Good song though.


----------



## Dadof3

Shamwow said:


> Ex W just sent this to me:
> 
> Gotye- Somebody That I Used To Know (feat. Kimbra)- official film clip (HD) - YouTube
> 
> One last parting shot, or something heartfelt...who the hell knows. Good song though.


For what its worth, Sham, my W listened to it in regards to your post (and knowing your background) and said it was heartfelt - its her way of saying she's missing you now and what you had.

Wow. Never heard of this artist before (my W either) - now she's gonna buy the album!

Glad to hear everything is going good for ya! I was actually wondering about you about 5 minutes before I checked my subscriptions, ready to sign off for the night. 

Almost thought your thread died.... 

Happy New Year, Sham - and you have excellent taste (redheads) - is she really fair too? If so - you get bonus points!


----------



## Shamwow

Yeah, she just texted me (in regards to the holidays):

"My parents exhausted me. They always liked you better."

Then:

"You're my best friend, love ya, just not passion compatible I guess. Miss you."

I said: "Yeah. I know."


Weird night. My therapist would tell me to acknowledge feeling shi**y and experience it. Okay. She deserves to feel this way. But I don't feel happy about it in any way.

First Holiday + divorce finalization I guess. But 2012 is coming!


----------



## Shamwow

Dadof3 said:


> and you have excellent taste (redheads) - is she really fair too? If so - you get bonus points!


She is quite fair indeed.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Ex W just sent this to me:
> 
> Gotye- Somebody That I Used To Know (feat. Kimbra)- official film clip (HD) - YouTube
> 
> One last parting shot, or something heartfelt...who the hell knows. Good song though.


I loved this song. 29,000,000 hits? Sounds like a song you should have sent her. WTF? Love her taste though, she's still confused. Would be nice to point this out to her but it would not take yet. She's probably thinking you forced her to stray.

Most of my mothers family are redheads, enjoy the rodeo,its a man test. HAHAHA


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Yeah, she just texted me (in regards to the holidays):
> 
> "My parents exhausted me. They always liked you better."
> 
> Then:
> 
> "You're my best friend, love ya, just not passion compatible I guess. Miss you."
> 
> I said: "Yeah. I know."
> 
> 
> Weird night. My therapist would tell me to acknowledge feeling shi**y and experience it. Okay. She deserves to feel this way. But I don't feel happy about it in any way.
> 
> First Holiday + divorce finalization I guess. But 2012 is coming!


Still hanging on to the fog ....... by her fingernails. Bless her heart. Do you know what that means in Minn?


----------



## Sindo

Been following your thread for a while. Your threads are an inspiration.



chapparal said:


> I loved this song. 29,000,000 hits? Sounds like a song you should have sent her. WTF? Love her taste though, she's still confused. Would be nice to point this out to her but it would not take yet. She's probably thinking you forced her to stray.


Listen to the lyrics. It's about a cheater upset about the way his ex cut him out of her life.



Shamwow said:


> "You're my best friend, love ya, just not passion compatible I guess. Miss you."
> 
> I said: "Yeah. I know."


You know that's not true, right? Friends, let alone best friends, do not do what she did. 

And being passion compatible part? That's a history rewrite. All we have to do is look through that first thread. 



Shamwow said:


> Interesting...have already experienced some of this during recent weeks. When asked about her lack of interest in sex, she actually said "Well, that's never really been our thing." Umm, could've fooled me for the last 8 years. Exact example of rewriting history, and boiling it down to a falsehood designed to hurt me and try to justify her lack of interest.
> 
> Will try to keep my memory intact no matter what she says. I'm going to try to listen to what she says and completely disregard that there may be truth in it, and not necessarily feel the need to call her on it. I'll try to just focus on her actions and remember who it is I'm dealing with right now. The "stand-in". If she wants to be honest with me, at this point I think I'll notice the difference.





> Analyzing her texts is what got me to the point of understanding what I had to do. They're horrible. Horrible. Not just the sexual parts, the discussions of ME. Her talking with D-Bag about what I'm not capable of, him calling me a "weak putz who doesn't know what he has". Him telling her she's "a sexual dynamo and he (me) ain't done s**t". And how would he know? He wouldn't, but she bought it and joined in. She compains about not getting laid ever again, and this starts two weeks prior to the end of a TEN WEEK TRIP that she chose to take. And this after we made love 3 times in the 36 hours before she left...and it was GOOD. SHE changed. This is not an epidemic over the last 8 years.


----------



## Shaggy

Shamwow said:


> Yeah, she just texted me (in regards to the holidays):
> 
> "My parents exhausted me. They always liked you better."
> 
> Then:
> 
> "You're my best friend, love ya, just not passion compatible I guess. Miss you."
> 
> I said: "Yeah. I know."
> 
> 
> Weird night. My therapist would tell me to acknowledge feeling shi**y and experience it. Okay. She deserves to feel this way. But I don't feel happy about it in any way.
> 
> First Holiday + divorce finalization I guess. But 2012 is coming!


Actually it's that you are the better one - even her parents knew it.

and it's not passion compatible - it's morals compatible.


----------



## RFW

I have spent an hour reading about your journey - have faith in yourself!

No one deserves this type of pain - but that really does not come into play.

The woman you love is still there - it is deep inside where you cannot see or hear her - but she is in there.

I am not really in the position to give advice at this point - but the words love, humility and gentleness are very relevant to me at this point.

I wish you the very best - you are in my prayers!


----------



## Dadof3

Sham - if the D is final - I don't think it'd hurt to start correcting her history "rewrites". You have nothing to lose anymore (and I really hate the "can we just be friends now" bull crap).


----------



## Shamwow

Yeah, I could've text-smacked her for that one. My "I know" was directed at her "Miss you", but I guess it let her other stuff slide too. Oh well, it's our first holiday season apart, I cut her a little slack i guess. That song kinda killed me for a while too. Ugh. Wish I could say it was easy to just be over everything, but of course I remember the good times too.

Anyway, taking Red out for a hell of a New Year's Eve tonight, gonna have a blast! Wish everyone luck making it through the rest of the holidays, it can be touch and go. Enjoy as much as possible!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Yeah, I could've text-smacked her for that one. My "I know" was directed at her "Miss you", but I guess it let her other stuff slide too. Oh well, it's our first holiday season apart, I cut her a little slack i guess. That song kinda killed me for a while too. Ugh. Wish I could say it was easy to just be over everything, but of course I remember the good times too.
> 
> Anyway, taking Red out for a hell of a New Year's Eve tonight, gonna have a blast! Wish everyone luck making it through the rest of the holidays, it can be touch and go. Enjoy as much as possible!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Checking the girl out on the video, Kimbra. Here's a song by her your ex might like.

Kimbra - "Plain Gold Ring" (Live at Sing Sing Studios) - YouTube

Happy New Year, I'm sure you're going to like this new one better than the last one!


----------



## warlock07

Lyrics...




> Now and then I think of when we were together
> Like when you said you felt so happy you could die
> Told myself that you were right for me
> But felt so lonely in your company
> But that was love and it's an ache I still remember
> 
> You can get addicted to a certain kind of sadness
> Like resignation to the end
> Always the end
> So when we found that we could not make sense
> Well you said that we would still be friends
> But I'll admit that I was glad it was over
> 
> But you didn't have to cut me off
> Make out like it never happened
> And that we were nothing
> And I don't even need your love
> But you treat me like a stranger
> And that feels so rough
> And you didn't have to stoop so low
> Have your friends collect your records
> And then change your number
> I guess that I don't need that though
> Now you're just somebody that I used to know
> Now you're just somebody that I used to know
> Now you're just somebody that I used to know
> 
> Now and then I think of all the times you screwed me over
> But had me believing it was always something that I'd done
> And I don't wanna live that way
> Reading into every word you say
> You said that you could let it go
> And I wouldn't catch you hung up on somebody that you used to know...
> 
> But you didn't have to cut me off
> Make out like it never happened
> And that we were nothing
> And I don't even need your love
> But you treat me like a stranger
> And that feels so rough
> And you didn't have to stoop so low
> Have your friends collect your records
> And then change your number
> I guess that I don't need that though
> Now you're just somebody that I used to know
> 
> I used to know
> That I used to know
> 
> Somebody...


So, who cheated here?


----------



## Sindo

warlock07 said:


> Lyrics...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, who cheated here?


I was thinking the guy cheated based on the girls lyrics, but after a second listen, i think I read too much into it. It's vague enough for other interpretations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

In this song my XW is the guy.

To the OMW her STBXH is the guy.

At least that was my take...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Sindo

Shamwow said:


> In this song my XW is the guy.
> 
> To the OMW her STBXH is the guy.
> 
> At least that was my take...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, definitely. I was just rolling back what I said about the song being written about a cheater.

So OMW is divorcing her H? When did that happen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

> "You're my best friend, love ya,


were not are. 



> just not passion compatible I guess. Miss you."


She is still lying and justifying stuff. Such a shameless creature. You should have sent her some of her older texts belittling you. But you don't think it is worth it, right? 


that aside, I think the song is about a bad relationship, not necessarily about cheating. I think she is trying to keep you in her life somehow


----------



## Chaparral

I don't think she ever had the courage to fight for her marriage. Or her self esteem is to low to think Sham could ever forgive her.

This is an attempt to fish without risking all out rejection.


----------



## F-102

Happy New Year-and New Life- Sham!

BTW, are we going to see you on the Life After Divorce forum?


----------



## Shamwow

Sindo said:


> So OMW is divorcing her H? When did that happen?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, OMW contacted me the other day. It'd been two months or so since we last talked, so both updated the other.

I believe she plans to file tomorrow, she's secure in the decision, but is not looking forward to a likely financial battle with her stbxh...wishing her luck. He deserves to have to pay.


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> Yeah, OMW contacted me the other day. It'd been two months or so since we last talked, so both updated the other.
> 
> I believe she plans to file tomorrow, she's secure in the decision, but is not looking forward to a likely financial battle with her stbxh...wishing her luck. He deserves to have to pay.


Did she say why she decided to file? Does your ex know they're getting divorced?


----------



## F-102

Sham's ex was probably the first to be notified.


----------



## Sindo

I wouldn't be surprised if OM and the XW had already started seeing each other again. That would have contributed to the breakdown of OMs marriage. 

They both still travel, and both know how to hide their tracks better. If he was gaslighting OMW again, the inability to find evidence would have driven her nuts.


----------



## KenCasanova

^^agree 100%


----------



## Shamwow

Apparently OM has a new OW...he's been telling OMW that they're just friends, etc, blah, same old s**t. She isn't buying it for a second, hence the move to file for divorce. OMW describes her as "barely an adult". Yikes...

That said, he very well could contact my XW. And who knows, given their past she could very likely see him (even though she claims to hate him for "screwing her over" and lying to her. Yeah I know, great logic). XW can do what she wants now - she's a free woman! I could do some light recon for OMW if she wanted though...but she basically said she doesn't care at this point because she's moving forward with the D. 

BTW - through all this OMW has not exposed to OM's family...I encouraged her to expose so he can't rewrite history and get off scott free in his family's eyes. But it's not my call, so I didn't push it. And who knows she may be able to use that to her favor in mediation, as he is clearly terrified of his family hearing this news, and may very well be willing to "pay" to keep his secret. For all his "charisma" and bluster, apparently he's a coward.


----------



## Shamwow

At the house going through the rest of the belongings w X. Both moving everything else out in the next few weeks (storage lockers). Not easy. Lots of forgotten memories crammed in boxes in attic space, etc. Hard to keep it together at moments, but we're both doing okay with it. Of all the pictures I've only taken one handful from a camping trip when we first started dating, and a drawing I did for her 2 weeks after we met. No worries, not to pine over and bring up pain...I'm going to take a quiet moment at a place we used to love...and burn them to say goodbye. Of course haven't told her that. But just wanted to vent somewhere.

Thought this part would be easier.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

I' ve been wondering how you two have been doing. It just seems like this was the wrong ending to me.

The song she sent to you the other day even had me triggering over your break up. And that reminded me how terrible this has been for you two.

Still can't imagine she was ever able to communicate her true feelings. 

Hope you continue the updates and you have good news in the New Year. I know its hard but soon I hope the ups are better than the downs.


----------



## Sindo

chapparal said:


> I' ve been wondering how you two have been doing. It just seems like this was the wrong ending to me.


This may be an ending, but at the same time it's the start of a new beginning. And I look forward to occasionally reading what Sham makes of it.



chapparal said:


> The song she sent to you the other day even had me triggering over your break up. And that reminded me how terrible this has been for you two.


It's amazing how much impact a great song can have. Of all the **** the XW pulled since D-Day, the most devastating shot was a link to a music video.



chapparal said:


> Still can't imagine she was ever able to communicate her true feelings.


I think she has expressed her true feelings. They are feelings based on fog and rewritten history, but they are her feelings nonetheless. It does no use to make assumptions about things that probably aren't there.



chapparal said:


> Hope you continue the updates and you have good news in the New Year. I know its hard but soon I hope the ups are better than the downs.


:iagree::iagree:
Best of luck.


----------



## MrQuatto

Well, for one, I recommend sending her this link in response...

Send her this but do NOT watch it yourself!

Eagles-Wasted Time - YouTube

I'd also consider telling her that the om is soon to be available. 

Q~


----------



## Chaparral

Shamwow said:


> At the house going through the rest of the belongings w X. Both moving everything else out in the next few weeks (storage lockers). Not easy. Lots of forgotten memories crammed in boxes in attic space, etc. Hard to keep it together at moments, but we're both doing okay with it. Of all the pictures I've only taken one handful from a camping trip when we first started dating, and a drawing I did for her 2 weeks after we met. No worries, not to pine over and bring up pain...I'm going to take a quiet moment at a place we used to love...and burn them to say goodbye. Of course haven't told her that. But just wanted to vent somewhere.
> 
> Thought this part would be easier.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Where is wife moving to? Do you think she is having a hard time with all this?

Here is a link my son sent me of 5 people playing the song she sent you, on one guitar. I thought it would be odd at least but dad was completely wrong again. 

Hope you are doing good and the New Year is treating you much better than last.


----------



## HKET4511

Sham -
My husband left 5 months ago and said he wanted a divorce but has yet to file. He left the night of our son's 7th birthday party and did it while we were asleep. When we woke up he was gone. We are losing our home to foreclosure and he hasn't helped me pack one item in that house and I was the one that felt the pain of all of our memories as a family. There is hardly any communication between us even regarding our son. The stupid part of me still hopes for reconciliation because there was absolutely no reason for it...no infidelity or anything like that. He just said he was unhappy. He moved in with his mom and I had to move back home with my dad. It's been very difficult. He is angry when he speaks to me and I don't even know why. I am glad to see that you were so strong. Good luck in the new year! It hasn't started so well for me.


----------



## MrQuatto

Sham, I know you were a bit tweaked from the youtube link from the ex. Hope you are doing well and keeping your chin up, mate.

Q~


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> Where is wife moving to? Do you think she is having a hard time with all this?


Have no idea where she's moving to. I think she's technically still at the house, though most of her stuff is moved out now - storage locker, someone else's place, I don't really know. I asked her a couple weeks ago, she didn't know for sure then. I haven't asked since.

She is having a hard time with this, but as far as I can tell mainly due to the short sale on the house being held up by the bank at the moment, and the buyer may back out if it takes much longer, and the bills to heat the place for another 5-6 months until there's another buyer, blah. Not so much about how she caused all of this - at least not that she's told me. Friends have told me that she has cried while hanging out with them recently. So she must have some considerable difficulties emotionally as of late...should kill me to know that but it's more of a crick in my neck. I had my time, now it's hers...sounds harsh, even feels a bit harsh, but not sure how else to look at it.

She called tonight to say she might have to file for bankruptcy if the bank doesn't approve the short sale soon...if it's a foreclosure situation she said she might as well go all the way and erase some of the debt (cc's, medical, etc) with bankruptcy.

Found myself wondering why she's telling me all this.

Mortgage is all on her credit, so her problem (though my credit score has taken a hit for some reason too...just not like hers has). She said that this isn't her life, she shouldn't be here right now, but that she's glad it's not taking both of us down, as that would be "pointless". I appreciated that, but felt she was expecting an "I'm sorry" from me. I was conscious not to say anything of the type - as I did nothing to be sorry for - so found myself saying "Wish things weren't this way for you."

Anyway, yeah it's hard for her right now. She'll be fine though. Kinda. She's so detached from her feelings that I wonder if she'll find a way to bury them for the rest of her life. Never any remorse. So odd to me...but I know I'm not the only one to deal with a wayward like this. But that's why she's my X, I guess.


----------



## Shamwow

HKET4511 said:


> Sham -
> My husband left 5 months ago and said he wanted a divorce but has yet to file. He left the night of our son's 7th birthday party and did it while we were asleep. When we woke up he was gone. We are losing our home to foreclosure and he hasn't helped me pack one item in that house and I was the one that felt the pain of all of our memories as a family. There is hardly any communication between us even regarding our son. The stupid part of me still hopes for reconciliation because there was absolutely no reason for it...no infidelity or anything like that. He just said he was unhappy. He moved in with his mom and I had to move back home with my dad. It's been very difficult. He is angry when he speaks to me and I don't even know why. I am glad to see that you were so strong. Good luck in the new year! It hasn't started so well for me.


Sorry HKET...I know it's hard, you're in good company here. Been a life-changer for me. And can't believe your H hasn't been at least communicating with his son...wth. Hang in there.


----------



## F-102

Shamwow said:


> Have no idea where she's moving to. I think she's technically still at the house, though most of her stuff is moved out now - storage locker, someone else's place, I don't really know. I asked her a couple weeks ago, she didn't know for sure then. I haven't asked since.
> 
> She is having a hard time with this, but as far as I can tell mainly due to the short sale on the house being held up by the bank at the moment, and the buyer may back out if it takes much longer, and the bills to heat the place for another 5-6 months until there's another buyer, blah. Not so much about how she caused all of this - at least not that she's told me. Friends have told me that she has cried while hanging out with them recently. So she must have some considerable difficulties emotionally as of late...should kill me to know that but it's more of a crick in my neck. I had my time, now it's hers...sounds harsh, even feels a bit harsh, but not sure how else to look at it.
> 
> She called tonight to say she might have to file for bankruptcy if the bank doesn't approve the short sale soon...if it's a foreclosure situation she said she might as well go all the way and erase some of the debt (cc's, medical, etc) with bankruptcy.
> 
> Found myself wondering why she's telling me all this.
> 
> Mortgage is all on her credit, so her problem (though my credit score has taken a hit for some reason too...just not like hers has). She said that this isn't her life, she shouldn't be here right now, but that she's glad it's not taking both of us down, as that would be "pointless". I appreciated that, but felt she was expecting an "I'm sorry" from me. I was conscious not to say anything of the type - as I did nothing to be sorry for - so found myself saying "Wish things weren't this way for you."
> 
> Anyway, yeah it's hard for her right now. She'll be fine though. Kinda. She's so detached from her feelings that I wonder if she'll find a way to bury them for the rest of her life. Never any remorse. So odd to me...but I know I'm not the only one to deal with a wayward like this. But that's why she's my X, I guess.


Sounds like the cold, hard reality of the consequences of her decisions are staring her in the face, and she realizes that now she will be struggling for some time to come.
She thought for sure that by now she would be living this exciting, party-girl lifestyle, just as she thought that she could have it all-a H who would be there to support her and be her solid base, while she could get her passionate romance and fun times with other men. Again-cold, hard reality stared her in the face.

You have nothing to feel sorry for, Sham-you've done all any man could and more, and I see a good life ahead of you. She can have a good life, too Sham. But she's going to go through hell and back to get there-and now she knows it. This is not at all what she thought it would be.

Now, on a lighter note-how are things with Red?


----------



## happyman64

Sham,

Never look back. You did everything you could to save your marriage and your wife.

She did not want her marriage or her life. She is pretty messed up.

Don't burn all your pictures. Keep one to remember the good times. They were not all bad. And her comment about the passion.

You should have replied. "I never lost the passion for us. You just gave your share to another man".

You are an inspiration to all of us.

Thank you for sharing your journey and pain.

I am happy for you that you found the strength to move on and begin to love again.

All the bad things hitting your wife now and her crying in front of friends is call one thing *KARMA!*:lol:

By the way, my wife is a hot redhead too!

HM64


----------



## UCanTalk

Shamwow - Ive read all your posts on both threads from start to finish - that took the best part of a day and I have to say i was riveted. I suspect if nothing else for all the pain you have suffered, there is a book here. 

I applaud the way you have handled yourself throughout this episode. It is exemplary and a model of how to conduct oneself with grace and dignity when going through such a traumatic experience. For so many of us, our desire for revenge clouds our thinking and judgment, but you have not fallen into this trap and I commend you for that. At times one could smell the forum's desire for blood and yet you resisted the urge and followed your heart.

I also salute your openness - my therapist said "the more open we are, the more we learn" - your honsty will allow others to benefit through this forum.

Your ex sounds as though she has many issues and I suspect will continue to go through life looking for validation of her self esteem through others - this could mean multiple and short lived relationships. Has she considered therapy? 

Can I ask you a question? Have you worked with your therapist with what was your attraction to her? What did you do that allowed/supported/colluded with her bad behavior through your marriage and during this episode? I know you tried to put your foot down when things were blowing up but perhaps she thought you would just revert back to Sham 1.0 once you had settled down. 

You seem to have an understanding of her manipulative and truculent ways (she sounds like I was before I entered therapy) but were you "enabling" her and let her get away with bad behavior through your marriage? 

It took my wife 25 years to understand how she was doing this with me, instead she just internalized her frustrations - this built up resentments and led to issues elsewhere in our relationship.

Anyhow good luck on your new life - any lady that ends up with you will be a very lucky woman.


----------



## Conrad

Don Henley put it this way:

"You keep carrying that anger, it'll eat you up inside"


----------



## Shamwow

thinflyer said:


> Can I ask you a question? Have you worked with your therapist with what was your attraction to her? What did you do that allowed/supported/colluded with her bad behavior through your marriage and during this episode? I know you tried to put your foot down when things were blowing up but perhaps she thought you would just revert back to Sham 1.0 once you had settled down.
> 
> You seem to have an understanding of her manipulative and truculent ways (she sounds like I was before I entered therapy) but were you "enabling" her and let her get away with bad behavior through your marriage?



Yeah I enabled a good deal. And so did she.

Self esteem issues. Found myself reassuring her a lot. Her appearance, her career, what my family/friends thought of her, etc. And it also hit me that I rarely called her out when she'd disrespect me (occasional arguments when she was feeling down, she'd say really harsh things in the moment that she'd usually take back later). Stupid. Definitely shouldn't have 'taken it' as much as I did.

Seems so obvious to me now...but yeah, over the years I did plenty of rug sweeping to make quick peace.

Anyway, all mistakes I hope to avoid in future relationships.

Doing well so far.


----------



## Conrad

Sham,

No rush on this fellow Cardinals' fan.

But, I'm curious about her childhood - and I don't have the wherewithal to read all the way through (again) to remember if you've discussed it.

Abuse victim?

Neglect?

Alcoholic parents?

Anything like that....


----------



## Sindo

Nearing the finish line.

Apart from the house, are there any other loose ends the two of you need to tie up? At what point do you think you'd be no longer obligated to have her in your life?


----------



## MrQuatto

Sham, at this point I suspect we wont see you around much so I just wanted to say that I'm glad to have followed your situation and I feel very confident you will come out of this whole ordeal as the much better person, all around.

Good luck to you and Red if that works out.!

Q~


----------



## F-102

Actually, Sham's posting on other threads now.


----------



## Shamwow

Conrad said:


> Sham,
> 
> No rush on this fellow Cardinals' fan.
> 
> But, I'm curious about her childhood - and I don't have the wherewithal to read all the way through (again) to remember if you've discussed it.
> 
> Abuse victim?
> 
> Neglect?
> 
> Alcoholic parents?
> 
> Anything like that....


Hey Conrad (Cards fan!) - check around pg 103 of my original thread in CWI for more details, but the gist:

- daughter of a minister

- her parents: very loving, humble to a fault and let the world walk all over them. She found herself standing up for them a lot.

- she got into lots of trouble as a kid and was forgiven unconditionally, no real consequences (partying/vandalism/dropped out of school for a while, etc)

- first marriage when she was 19 ended with her leaving after 3 years because he was "verbally and emotionally abusive", would point out her faults and make her feel unattractive and unloved (umm, not so sure about her story on this now, btw...for all I know he was a good guy and she trampled him like she did me this last summer, but I digress.)

- she felt unaccepted by my friends and family over the years, to my confusion as I didn't see any lack of love from them for her...apparently the same happened in her first marriage. She has some engrained self-esteem issues, covered up by a strong front.


Does that give enough perspective?


----------



## Shamwow

Sindo said:


> Nearing the finish line.
> 
> Apart from the house, are there any other loose ends the two of you need to tie up? At what point do you think you'd be no longer obligated to have her in your life?


It's pretty much the house at this point, but there are a few things that will keep us mildly in touch for a while.

I got our two dogs (which she loved) in the divorce, and she may sit them from time to time when I have to travel...but not sure how long that will go on as our lives become more and more separate.

We'll be jointly paying off taxes from last year for a while (filed late..oops), so we'll have to be in touch monthly regarding money because missing any payments would affect both of us, at least this year.

Guess I can't think of anything else at the moment, save a family emergency or something. The house is mostly packed up and/or moved, just waiting on the short sale to go through.

She still sends me occasional texts and emails, usually house stuff, sometimes random things (good restaurant she ate at, etc). Generally all "friendly" interactions at this point. She's being respectful, and has stopped blaming me for the situation she's in. So I'm okay with some casual banter. But needless to say we're not meeting up for happy hour or anything. I have a new life to concentrate on, and so does she. Let's be honest, she blew our marriage to smithereens this past year...she doesn't deserve for me to be her "friend" anymore. But it seems we're able to get along in the few interactions we do have.


----------



## Shamwow

MrQuatto said:


> Sham, at this point I suspect we wont see you around much so I just wanted to say that I'm glad to have followed your situation and I feel very confident you will come out of this whole ordeal as the much better person, all around.
> 
> Good luck to you and Red if that works out.!
> 
> Q~


Yep, still around, just not a lot to update on lately. Keepin on keepin on, I guess. Thanks for the shout out!


----------



## Shamwow

XW texted this morning. Her bf was arrested on DWI last night as they were coming home from a night out. He went to jail. She woke up at his place this morning and started drinking (really?), and was fishing for a ride back to the marital (sic) home, where she technically still resides while it's in the process of short sale. She said she has not been "living the high road" lately. Apparently her friend pool was tapped out today?

Sigh.

I just told her sorry to hear that, and to please take care of herself. As for the ride, I considered it for a moment as the last thing xw needs is a DWI of her own. Instead I sent her a number for a "pick-me-up" car service that will drive you and your car home. She seems to have put on her big girl pants and taken care of it since the morning.

Karma bus a-coming down the road. As much as she deserves this, it's still hard to watch her crash and burn. But it's not my job to fix it for her.

EDIT: I can recall all of the predictions from other posters months ago, describing exactly this situation for her.


----------



## 67flh

she's crashing and burning at a rapid pace...almost feel sorry for her---naaa


----------



## F-102

Shamwow said:


> XW texted this morning. Her bf was arrested on DWI last night as they were coming home from a night out. He went to jail. She woke up at his place this morning and started drinking (really?), and was fishing for a ride back to the marital (sic) home, where she technically still resides while it's in the process of short sale. She said she has not been "living the high road" lately. Apparently her friend pool was tapped out today?
> 
> Sigh.
> 
> I just told her sorry to hear that, and to please take care of herself. As for the ride, I considered it for a moment as the last thing xw needs is a DWI of her own. Instead I sent her a number for a "pick-me-up" car service that will drive you and your car home. She seems to have put on her big girl pants and taken care of it since the morning.
> 
> Karma bus a-coming down the road. As much as she deserves this, it's still hard to watch her crash and burn. But it's not my job to fix it for her.
> 
> EDIT: I can recall all of the predictions from other posters months ago, describing exactly this situation for her.


I may have said this before, but I can picture her someday sitting on the floor of a one-room section-8 apartment in a crummy neighborhood, banging her head against the wall, muttering: "This never had to happen, this never had to happen, this never had to happen..."


----------



## Conrad

F-102 said:


> I may have said this before, but I can picture her someday sitting on the floor of a one-room section-8 apartment in a crummy neighborhood, banging her head against the wall, muttering: "This never had to happen, this never had to happen, this never had to happen..."


And it will still be Sham's fault.


----------



## warlock07

Is this a new bf?


----------



## happyman64

Yes it is hard to watch the crash and burn. 
It definitely is not your problem.
The karma bus has her number already. It is on the way to pick her up shortly.
You handled the situation perfectly.
Stay strong sham!


----------



## Shamwow

warlock07 said:


> Is this a new bf?


No, think it's the same hs friend she reconnected with after I left.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I just used a shamwow to clean up a spill 10 minutes ago and now you're here posting. What a nice coincidence.


----------



## warlock07

Shamwow said:


> No, think it's the same hs friend she reconnected with after I left.



One of them is cheating on the other, right? I thought they broke up


----------



## Shamwow

warlock07 said:


> One of them is cheating on the other, right? I thought they broke up


Well, it doesn't sound like a honeymoon, that's for sure. I think XW threw him under the bus after the incident the other night, as she was looking to get a ride from his place before he got out of jail. Don't know any more than that.

Her best gf texted me today asking if I'd been in touch with XW, worrying about her. I just said she had texted me the other day after a bad night, and she sounded pretty rough.

Really trying to avoid any of the drama here...it's up to her friends to lift her up now.


----------



## warlock07

Her best gf couldn't get in contact with her? I hope she is not suicidal.


----------



## Sindo

Probably just on a bender.

Maybe we'll be seeing an intervention in her future.


----------



## Shamwow

I presume her gf had been in touch with her...or had at least heard about the drama. I can see an intervention if this keeps up, as some of her work colleagues have been concerned about the wine intake for a while. Can't imagine her being suicidal, but clearly she's really down...I think she needs IC, stat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

She'll be fine, prob just a bender. She's feeling sorry for herself and not taking positive steps to fix it. Hope she changes that soon, for everyone's sanity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## southern wife

ShamWOW!!! I started reading your initial thread early last week, and just now finished this entire thread! WOW, you have been down a long, hard road in such a short amount of time.

I love the way you have totally changed yourself, inside and out  and are moving on as a new man! Good for you! :smthumbup:

I'm SO glad to hear that things with you and "little red" are going well. Just take it day by day - of course you know that already. She's a lucky girl to have such a sweet man by her side, at least as her friend. You seem very loyal and true; don't ever lose that and keep moving forward.

HAPPY VALENTINES DAY!


----------



## Shamwow

Quick update...

I'll be moving the last of my things from the house later today. The short sale is approved on the house, closing on Friday. I have to write a sizeable check for my half of the short sale settlement, as is my responsibility as original deed holder...but other than that it's done and out of my hands. And it's a very liberating feeling to be cutting this tie with XW and my old life. Now our only real ties are the dogs (and that's minimal, as they are mine now).

Was over filling a dumpster with XW the other day in prep for the move, and we got along just fine. Good to be able to do this stuff without anger or insanity from either end.

Two things:

- She told me she's having health concerns (racing pulse, dizziness, shakiness, etc) and thinks it's related to her drinking, which has been at an elevated level for some time. It doesn't sound like she's seeking professional help, but has been going through withdrawal, etc, when she tries to stop cold turkey. If nothing else I guess it's good sign that she's starting to talk about it as a problem. Let's see if she does something about it. Hope so.

- She finally asked how I found out my evidence. Out of the blue, and totally casual with no anger, she just said "So...did you hack my phone then?" I just said "Nope". Silence. Then I said "Do you really want to know?" to which she then said no. And then yes. I thought about it for a sec (would this be helping her cheat in the future??) but finally figured at least I'd give her a little peace of mind that I'm not spying on her still. Told her that her phone or computer were never compromised, but that texts don't really go away when you delete them. She stopped me and said she didn't want to know any more...so she still probably doesn't know that her backup drive sunk her fantasy world. Whatever. Not sure if that's worth mentioning, but after 6 months she finally asked how I busted her. (She still has never technically apologized either...and I'm okay with that now. She's said what she did was wrong, but that's about the extent of what I'll ever hear. I know her well enough to know that. C'est la vie. At least I exposed, so she'll have to soul search in regards to dealing with family/friends eventually. Maybe she'll get therapy someday.)

I'm feeling great. Been awhile since I had a rough night or did any painful reminiscing. Still doing IC though. And things with Red are going...well...just great. 2.0 all the way, feels totally different going into a new relationship with the knowledge I've gained. She treats me like a king. And she's getting the best of me too. Taking it slow though, really saw myself floating the field for a while...but maybe that's just not my MO, and why mess with a good thing?

I realize this should probably be moving to Life After Divorce, but haven't decided if I need to start a new thread...my venting is much less frequent these days. We shall see.

Endless thanks to everyone again, for helping me through the sh*tstorm that you all saw coming. I am eternally grateful.


----------



## happyman64

Sham,

You are such a good man. Do not ever change my man.

Your xww will hopefully wakeup one day and say to herself "what the fxxx did I do to my life". But I do not think it will be "our life".

Some people only think of themselves Sham. And she has shown how selfish she can be.

Hopefully some day she will wakeup, smell the coffee and fix herself. But she probably will never be the woman you originally fell in love with.

All I am saying do not wait for her apology and keep moving forward with your life. You are doing great and your life will get even better.

Redheads Rock Sham.

HM64


----------



## southern wife

Shamwow said:


> Quick update...
> 
> I'm feeling great. Been awhile since I had a rough night or did any painful reminiscing. Still doing IC though. *And things with Red are going...well...just great. 2.0 all the way*, feels totally different going into a new relationship with the knowledge I've gained. She treats me like a king. And she's getting the best of me too. Taking it slow though, really saw myself floating the field for a while...but maybe that's just not my MO, and why mess with a good thing?


:smthumbup: That is so great to hear!!! Keep up the good work and keep moving forward. Everything in the past is no longer worth mentioning.  You have a bright new future ahead of you!!


----------



## F-102

Now can I use my tried-and-true "50 smelly cats" analogy?


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> I realize this should probably be moving to Life After Divorce, but haven't decided if I need to start a new thread...my venting is much less frequent these days. We shall see.



Wouldn't be as long as the last two threads


----------



## joe kidd

Great to hear you are doing well Sham.


----------



## morituri

Sham you can always request that one of the moderators move this over to the Life after divorce forum. You can even rename the title of this thread.


----------



## Shamwow

Text out of the blue from XW today:

"You're probably the best guy out there. Never forget it, never settle!"

Not sure what to do with that. Will respond eventually, but it's interesting to know she's at least having some realizations about what's been lost in her life by her choices. Guessing she's finding out there are a lot of wankers out there posing as potential partners.

And lord knows I'm not anywhere near the best - but I can definitely say I'm trying.


----------



## happyman64

No Sham. You are the best guy out there. She just realized it.

You should respond. I am the best guy out there.

It is a shame after XX years of marriage you are just realizing that now.

That is exactly what Sham 2.0 would say!!

You have every right to say it to her.

Then go out with your girlfriend and let her have the benefits of a great guy....


----------



## Shaggy

Only response possble.

I know, that's why I didn't put up with your cheating for even a second.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## dymo

Could she know about Red?

If she does, maybe reply something like "I didn't."


----------



## Shamwow

Yeah she knows about Red. She said something a week or two ago when we were packing the house stuff. She said she heard I had a gal, and wished me the best.

Seems to be accepting reality better these days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Hope she gets some help.


----------



## warlock07

> And lord knows I'm not anywhere near the best - but I can definitely say I'm trying.


That is what makes you very good. And don't respond with the responses suggested here. They do look a bit lame..Sorry guys no offense but they are really bad.

Do you think she is fishing again?


----------



## morituri

Must be the wine talking. She wouldn't express that while sober.

I agree with Warlock. It's better that Sham's actions do all the talking instead.


----------



## Conrad

Two words:

"I won't"





Shamwow said:


> Text out of the blue from XW today:
> 
> "You're probably the best guy out there. Never forget it, never settle!"
> 
> Not sure what to do with that. Will respond eventually, but it's interesting to know she's at least having some realizations about what's been lost in her life by her choices. Guessing she's finding out there are a lot of wankers out there posing as potential partners.
> 
> And lord knows I'm not anywhere near the best - but I can definitely say I'm trying.


----------



## bandit.45

Sad when a person realizes what they have lost only when they come to a brief moment of clarity. 

Enjoy the compliment Sham, but don't dwell on it. She'll be back to her old nasty self in no time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Update. Financial vent.

Just got back from a two week trip to the UK (ultimately business, but a good chunk of which was pleasure). The mail waiting for me at home was not friendly.

I knew the divorce would bring down some financial rain for a year or two, but until now I've been able to avoid austerity measures.

Now I feel like Greece.

I make a decent living, but it's getting hard to keep up without another income to supplant my rather erratically-timed freelance income. Deferred taxes (oops, I was "pre-occupied" last spring thanks to ex), divorce costs, short sale buyout on the house (ouch), storage, blah blah. IRS up my a**. Never thought I'd be that guy. Not really as bad as all that I guess, but it doesn't feel good.

Ex is swimming in debt and financial destruction. But alas, I am not immune. 

That said, life is amazing. I'm still on top of my day to day, work continues, I have my dogs, my biceps are huge , Red is such a sweet girl and brings me massive joy - wow is the only appropriate word. She has no idea what I make. But she knows I'm under strain...I can't hide it (nor am I attempting to). But I refuse to handle this any other way than on my own. I'm my own man, and any troubles are my own.

This is all inconsequential I guess...my point is I'm presently finding myself extremely angry with my ex for making this lovely situation a reality. Yes, she's 10 times worse off than me, but I find myself missing the comfort of a two-income marriage, where costs are split and an acceptable support structure exists without question. But do I wish I was still with her? Hell no.

Anyway...give me a year or so of pinching and all will be well (right?). Anyone divorce and get a comfy ride? If so, congrats. I have an apt, my car, my work gear and a little spending money, but everything that comes in is immediately owed to someone at the moment. So since I feel I can't justifiably complain anywhere else in my life, here I am b1tching to TAM. To all of you with kids...my most powerful lauds...respect...and awe. Because this is not fun. And I don't have kids to support.

Will not let this affect my happiness. Just my immediate comfort level.

Rant complete. No response needed, just journaling, I guess. Good luck, all. Life moves on...


----------



## Hijo

Hey Sham,
I can only but recommend one thing for you. https://www.mytotalmoneymakeover.com/

(not in any way affiliated, just sincerely hoping you can pull through)


----------



## dymo

Shamwow said:


> Update. Financial vent.
> 
> Just got back from a two week trip to the UK (ultimately business, but a good chunk of which was pleasure). The mail waiting for me at home was not friendly.
> 
> I knew the divorce would bring down some financial rain for a year or two, but until now I've been able to avoid austerity measures.
> 
> Now I feel like Greece.
> 
> I make a decent living, but it's getting hard to keep up without another income to supplant my rather erratically-timed freelance income. Deferred taxes (oops, I was "pre-occupied" last spring thanks to ex), divorce costs, short sale buyout on the house (ouch), storage, blah blah. IRS up my a**. Never thought I'd be that guy. Not really as bad as all that I guess, but it doesn't feel good.
> 
> Ex is swimming in debt and financial destruction. But alas, I am not immune.
> 
> That said, life is amazing. I'm still on top of my day to day, work continues, I have my dogs, my biceps are huge , Red is such a sweet girl and brings me massive joy - wow is the only appropriate word. She has no idea what I make. But she knows I'm under strain...I can't hide it (nor am I attempting to). But I refuse to handle this any other way than on my own. I'm my own man, and any troubles are my own.
> 
> This is all inconsequential I guess...my point is I'm presently finding myself extremely angry with my ex for making this lovely situation a reality. Yes, she's 10 times worse off than me, but I find myself missing the comfort of a two-income marriage, where costs are split and an acceptable support structure exists without question. But do I wish I was still with her? Hell no.
> 
> Anyway...give me a year or so of pinching and all will be well (right?). Anyone divorce and get a comfy ride? If so, congrats. I have an apt, my car, my work gear and a little spending money, but everything that comes in is immediately owed to someone at the moment. So since I feel I can't justifiably complain anywhere else in my life, here I am b1tching to TAM. To all of you with kids...my most powerful lauds...respect...and awe. Because this is not fun. And I don't have kids to support.
> 
> Will not let this affect my happiness. Just my immediate comfort level.
> 
> Rant complete. No response needed, just journaling, I guess. Good luck, all. Life moves on...


This is the first post that genuinely feels like it belongs in 'Life After Divorce'. Maybe it's time for a new thread. You might even get some advice from people who were also once Greece.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

You make a good point. Thread complete, y'all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

Last post !!


----------



## Chaparral

Almostrecovered said:


> Last post !!


Good luck with that! Doh!


----------



## morituri

yeah.


----------



## Shamwow

Nice try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

Dibs!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Almostrecovered

don't we already have a thread where people compete to have the last post?


----------



## morituri

Almostrecovered said:


> don't we already have a thread where people compete to have the last post?


Do we?


----------



## bandit.45

Yes
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Why Not Be Happy?

We do.


----------



## warlock07

I agree


----------



## canguy66

What?


----------



## bandit.45

Where? :rofl:


----------



## happyman64

You guys are either really sick or really lonely!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

what?


----------



## bandit.45

Why?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

Where?


----------



## bandit.45

How?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chaos

You don't say.


----------



## tacoma

Please guys stop this.
You're turning an epic bread into a parlor game.



Sham needs a new thread, that is if he still feels like talking to us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## chaos

tacoma said:


> Please guys stop this.
> You're turning an epic bread into a parlor game.
> 
> 
> 
> Sham needs a new thread, that is if he still feels like talking to us.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




New thread? Not necessarily. Sham can also request one the moderators to move this thread over the "Life after divorce" forum.


----------



## happyman64

Huh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

What?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 67flh

you don't say!


----------



## morituri

Indeed.


----------



## happyman64

Sham

Not that I want to continue this thread or remind you about your ex-wife but every time my kids or wife play this song I think of you.

You shared this song with us months ago before it the top20 in the US.

Here is a cool acoustic version by walk off the earth I thought I would share with you. 5 people on one guitar is kinda cool.

Somebody That I Used to Know - Walk off the Earth (Gotye - Cover) - YouTube

Respectfully,
HM64


----------



## Chaparral

Bump for the newbies to read. First see Shamwows other threads.

Just Someone That I used to Know was number five yesterday on local radio.


----------



## dymo

Coming up on one year since you posted your first thread. This thread looks to have run its course, but it feels like a good time to ask for an update.

How are things? Anything you'd like to say now, looking back?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jameskimp

Hows your new girl? Has the ex wife still tried contacting you?


----------



## Shamwow

Hey all,

Just a brief (okay, not so brief) update, it’s been a year since things blew up. Posting this here because I see no reason to create a new thread for an update. Turns out the “anniversary” actually has affected me some lately, but in more of an introspective way. I reread much of my thread over the last few days, and it’s funny, in many ways it reads to me like someone else was writing it. While reading I see so many things in black and white _now_ that looked so foggy or confusing_ then_. I think this is a good thing.

I still hear from XW from time to time, maybe once or twice a month by text. I show these to my gf. Mostly address change/money stuff, but all is polite and pleasant (example: out of the blue birthday text to me: “I know this will be your best year ever”…I replied a few days later to say thanks and hope all’s well) . She has had many ups and downs in the last year…but more downs. She has work, mostly out of town, and is able to make the monthly tax payments to me as stipulated in the divorce. So that’s good. As I posted earlier in this thread, her alcohol intake upped dramatically after I left (and it was already fairly ample prior to that). It still is. She even got fired from a recent job for showing up drunk. She almost got a DUI, and her new bf did get a DUI on a night out with her, at which point she left him in jail and moved out the next morning. Friends are concerned because they rarely see her sober. But apparently she has acknowledged to them that it’s a problem (as well as to me in the occasional texts she still sends). So we shall see.

Her relationship with new bf has apparently ended many times. Friends have said she is constantly accusing him of cheating, lying and being weak…but they continue the rocky road…their business, not mine.

Interestingly, she hasn’t spoken with many of our mutual friends since last summer when I exposed…at all. Curious…

I’m healthy, though my workout regimen has certainly tamed. It was much easier to rock 2 hours per day when I had adrenaline pumping through my veins 24-7 while temporarily insane last year – it was almost mandatory then. But now I do 3 days a week, and it’s less intense…I feel great…just not as testosterone-ripped.

Work is good. Moving next month…finally getting out of the mancave apt I rented in a hurry last September, moving into a townhome, beautifully remodeled and spacious. I have a feeling work will soar once I get settled in to a more comfortable environment.

Relationship with Red is incredible, strong and exciting. We travel a lot, our families have met (good time had by all) and we have a really good footing from the get go…she knows my story and what it means, she’s very open about herself as well. Yes, we talk about the relationship. But not much. Usually we tend to do things like rock-climbing, camping, target practice at her mom’s farm, road trips, and generally…talk and laugh. Okay the lovin is great too. We’ve passed the tests of our first few misunderstandings by actually dealing with them calmly and quickly. Refreshing. Good things to come there.

OMW and OM are still separated (completely) in the process of a unfortunately contentious divorce. He’s not giving in on many things financial, so mediation hasn’t been the smooth route she’d hoped. Wishing her luck. They were married 20 years. 

Anyway, no real bombshells, life is great…really kind of interesting how things have panned out like so many predicted for all parties involved..

To sum up, I do still have the occasional fond memory, but for all intents and purposes, I truly don’t miss my old marriage and old life one bit. New life is so much better.


----------



## Santa

I cant wait until I can make a post like this....


----------



## happyman64

Good for you Sham. You deserve a new better life.

That is the key to having a better life after infidelity.

Wanting one!!!!


----------



## Almostrecovered

Show off


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> Show off


Ha...just callin em as I see em.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Well at least you can back up the boast

I'm truly happy for you bud

Now where are the Little Red Writing Hood pics?


----------



## girlfromipanema

Congratulations and cheers to you, Shamwow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Shamwow

Almostrecovered said:


> Now where are the Little Red Writing Hood pics?


Ha! You asked for pics enough times, here ya go.


----------



## OldGirl

Thanks for the update, Sham. Your story was the first I read on TAM. Glad everything turned out so well


----------



## Chaparral

Besides telling you not to settle, did your ex ever express any regret or wish that she could have things to do over again?

I was sure she would try to push the reconcilliation button, but I also believed you convinced her pretty quickly there was no chance.

Extremely glad to hear you are doing even better than before. Some things are meant to be.


----------



## Shamwow

chapparal said:


> Besides telling you not to settle, did your ex ever express any regret or wish that she could have things to do over again?


Nope. Unless you consider this regret: texted me from NYC a few months back, saying she was across the street from a familiar restaurant we'd gone to once, and that it made her sad. Then wished me well.

On the flip side I actually heard this too: (text after getting fired for showing up drunk) "Geez, I cheat once and suddenly I'm Charlie Brown? Okay, not expecting empathy on that one."

Look I'm sure she regrets things, but it's still about her. It's probably only because she's bored or lonely when she does make the contact, and honestly even though it's rare, she needs to stop. I'm in a new relationship. While it's nice that it's not venemous or hateful communication, ex doesn't get to be my buddy.


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Ha! You asked for pics enough times, here ya go.


humunnuh humunuh


----------



## dymo

You have no kids (unless you count the dogs), and and I imagine after you next file your taxes you'll be pretty much separate financially. As time goes by, hopefully she'll have less and less reason to contact you.



Shamwow said:


> I still hear from XW from time to time, maybe once or twice a month by text. I show these to my gf. Mostly address change/money stuff, but all is polite and pleasant (example: out of the blue birthday text to me: “I know this will be your best year ever”…I replied a few days later to say thanks and hope all’s well) .


Her birthday/your D-day anniversary is coming up soon, isn't it? How do you plan to handle it? A text, or just ignore it completely?

And belated happy birthday. I'm sure it was better than the last one.



Shamwow said:


> OMW and OM are still separated (completely) in the process of a unfortunately contentious divorce. He’s not giving in on many things financial, so mediation hasn’t been the smooth route she’d hoped. Wishing her luck. They were married 20 years.


Did she ever expose? Wasn't she going to use that information to leverage something in the divorce?


----------



## Almostrecovered

Shamwow said:


> Ha! You asked for pics enough times, here ya go.


----------



## Shamwow

dymo said:


> Her birthday/your D-day anniversary is coming up soon, isn't it? How do you plan to handle it? A text, or just ignore it completely?


Huh, hadn't thought about it. Probably nothing...not sure what one would say there. "Hey - hope this birthday is better the last one where I left the night before and you got FB b-day blown-up all day wishing you a great day". Yeah, probably stick with nothing.



> And belated happy birthday. I'm sure it was better than the last one.


inDEED




> Did she ever expose? Wasn't she going to use that information to leverage something in the divorce?


Far as I know the OMW didn't expose to OM's family. Her friends know, not sure if she told her family. Just had an email exchange with her last week. We don't 'keep in touch' by any regular means, but every 2-3 months there'll be an email checking in. She realized that one year ago was the day our WSs finally met secretly on XW's work trip. Anyway, hope he just lets her have her divorce already...


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## warlock07

Shamwow said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Just a brief (okay, not so brief) update, it’s been a year since things blew up. Posting this here because I see no reason to create a new thread for an update. Turns out the “anniversary” actually has affected me some lately, but in more of an introspective way. I reread much of my thread over the last few days, and it’s funny, in many ways it reads to me like someone else was writing it. While reading I see so many things in black and white _now_ that looked so foggy or confusing_ then_. I think this is a good thing.
> 
> I still hear from XW from time to time, maybe once or twice a month by text. I show these to my gf. Mostly address change/money stuff, but all is polite and pleasant (example: out of the blue birthday text to me: “I know this will be your best year ever”…I replied a few days later to say thanks and hope all’s well) . She has had many ups and downs in the last year…but more downs. She has work, mostly out of town, and is able to make the monthly tax payments to me as stipulated in the divorce. So that’s good. As I posted earlier in this thread, her alcohol intake upped dramatically after I left (and it was already fairly ample prior to that). It still is. She even got fired from a recent job for showing up drunk. She almost got a DUI, and her new bf did get a DUI on a night out with her, at which point she left him in jail and moved out the next morning. Friends are concerned because they rarely see her sober. But apparently she has acknowledged to them that it’s a problem (as well as to me in the occasional texts she still sends). So we shall see.
> 
> Her relationship with new bf has apparently ended many times. Friends have said she is constantly accusing him of cheating, lying and being weak…but they continue the rocky road…their business, not mine.
> 
> Interestingly, she hasn’t spoken with many of our mutual friends since last summer when I exposed…at all. Curious…
> 
> I’m healthy, though my workout regimen has certainly tamed. It was much easier to rock 2 hours per day when I had adrenaline pumping through my veins 24-7 while temporarily insane last year – it was almost mandatory then. But now I do 3 days a week, and it’s less intense…I feel great…just not as testosterone-ripped.
> 
> Work is good. Moving next month…finally getting out of the mancave apt I rented in a hurry last September, moving into a townhome, beautifully remodeled and spacious. I have a feeling work will soar once I get settled in to a more comfortable environment.
> 
> Relationship with Red is incredible, strong and exciting. We travel a lot, our families have met (good time had by all) and we have a really good footing from the get go…she knows my story and what it means, she’s very open about herself as well. Yes, we talk about the relationship. But not much. Usually we tend to do things like rock-climbing, camping, target practice at her mom’s farm, road trips, and generally…talk and laugh. Okay the lovin is great too. We’ve passed the tests of our first few misunderstandings by actually dealing with them calmly and quickly. Refreshing. Good things to come there.
> 
> OMW and OM are still separated (completely) in the process of a unfortunately contentious divorce. He’s not giving in on many things financial, so mediation hasn’t been the smooth route she’d hoped. Wishing her luck. They were married 20 years.
> 
> Anyway, no real bombshells, life is great…really kind of interesting how things have panned out like so many predicted for all parties involved..
> 
> To sum up, I do still have the occasional fond memory, but for all intents and purposes, I truly don’t miss my old marriage and old life one bit. New life is so much better.


I almost hoped that the credits would start rolling after this post with pictures of the cast and Coldplay music running in the background


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## The Cro-Magnon

warlock07 said:


> She is still lying and justifying stuff. Such a shameless creature. You should have sent her some of her older texts belittling you. But you don't think it is worth it, right?


If he had the fortitude and spirit and temperament to do this, this thread would not be 80+ pages long, and would have been resolved happily to his satisfaction long ago.




> that aside, I think the song is about a bad relationship, not necessarily about cheating. I think she is trying to keep you in her life somehow


Spot on.


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## dymo

The Cro-Magnon said:


> If he had the fortitude and spirit and temperament to do this, this thread would not be 80+ pages long, and would have been resolved happily to his satisfaction long ago.


If he'd done this, I think this thread would have been a lot longer. All it would have done is fuel the back and forth between them. I like how he handled it. He did not engage when her it was not worth it, and I think he came out better for that. 

We haven't heard from him in a while. However as far as resolutions go, so far this was as happy and satisfactory as one could have hoped for. 

Merry Christmas, Sham. Hope you're doing well.


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## tsatago

Hi Sham, just curious. How's your ex wife doing, are there still feelings?


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## Mo42

any news on this. did Sham get remarried?


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## dymo

Mo42 said:


> any news on this. did Sham get remarried?


A little fast, don't you think? 

Latest shamwow thread link below

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/50597-gfs-cousin-just-confided-her.html


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## manticore

Hi Sham

your Thread is a pefect example of how to deal with a unremorseful WWS, in the end even if she does not accept it i am sure she wishs she could still be with you.

Hope you the best in your life.


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## happi_g_more2

Sham - If you are still around (hopefully you put this all behind you and no longer hang around this place), but if you are. I just want to say Thank You!! What you have chronicled here is nothing short of amazing. From your ability and willingness to get this all down on "paper", with every detail, to they way you handled your situation. You are my hero. 

I stumbled upon these threads last night as my wife travels a lot for work. I read for 4 hours straight till 4am, woke up at 7am and just finished (with a couple of detours). 

I too am a big strong guy, although a bit more Alpha then you at the start of all this. Thankfully, I am in a loving, honest, relationship with my wife of 10 years with absolutely no major issues (famous last words, I know). I have been cheated on before, not by my wife. I play contact sports, own guns, camp, fish, I lift weights..heavy weights...drink too much some times, and when i was younger got in lots of fights. Im a guy....and I cried when I finished your story. 

Im not really sure why Im posting this, I just felt a connection what you went through. Why? It's not clear to me at the moment, but I did. I just felt like saying thank you for sharing. This post should really be stickied as model template for how to handle the immediate 180 required on D-Day. If I had this knowledge 15 years ago, I definitely would have coped better with my xgfs indiscretions. 

Anyway, Im going on here adding to a thread that hasnt updated in months about a story that ended a year ago.

Please, if its not too hard, set an alarm on your phone to update this with your progression every once in a while. Hope you are Red are great!!!


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## Conrad

happi_g_more2 said:


> Sham - If you are still around (hopefully you put this all behind you and no longer hang around this place), but if you are. I just want to say Thank You!! What you have chronicled here is nothing short of amazing. From your ability and willingness to get this all down on "paper", with every detail, to they way you handled your situation. You are my hero.
> 
> I stumbled upon these threads last night as my wife travels a lot for work. I read for 4 hours straight till 4am, woke up at 7am and just finished (with a couple of detours).
> 
> I too am a big strong guy, although a bit more Alpha then you at the start of all this. Thankfully, I am in a loving, honest, relationship with my wife of 10 years with absolutely no major issues (famous last words, I know). I have been cheated on before, not by my wife. I play contact sports, own guns, camp, fish, I lift weights..heavy weights...drink too much some times, and when i was younger got in lots of fights. Im a guy....and I cried when I finished your story.
> 
> Im not really sure why Im posting this, I just felt a connection what you went through. Why? It's not clear to me at the moment, but I did. I just felt like saying thank you for sharing. This post should really be stickied as model template for how to handle the immediate 180 required on D-Day. If I had this knowledge 15 years ago, I definitely would have coped better with my xgfs indiscretions.
> 
> Anyway, Im going on here adding to a thread that hasnt updated in months about a story that ended a year ago.
> 
> Please, if its not too hard, set an alarm on your phone to update this with your progression every once in a while. Hope you are Red are great!!!


Did you read his thread in the CWI forum?

He's truly a legendary TAM personae.


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## happi_g_more2

Conrad said:


> Did you read his thread in the CWI forum?
> 
> He's truly a legendary TAM personae.


I did. Thats where I started last night. Was like watching the most gut wrenching moving for 12 hours straight...had to keep reminding myself it was real. "Panties came back positive for semen. Have a great weekend folks." I thought I was going to puke. Gut wrenching.


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## manticore

Conrad said:


> Did you read his thread in the CWI forum?
> 
> He's truly a legendary TAM personae.


yes, he is one of those awesome contributors whose full Odyssey is recorded in TAM from the finding to the move on phase, many users find solace and strength in these stories to do what is best for them seeing how others before them were able to do it, despite how hurtful, difficult and heartbroking was and now they are in a much better place in their life, there are alos others similar stories as: Badblood, Oldsmitten, morituri, Ing. I am sure there are others like them but many decided to delete their threads when they moved on, but still this is the proof that this kind of forums are a useful support system for people going throug this unfortunatly experiences in their lives and also leave hope for others that are beginning they our painful journey.


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## the guy

I hope he never comes back...in good way LOL


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## Previn

I just read the whole Shamwow saga from the beginning.

My intuition kept making me feel like the wife had bifurcated her identity in ways that were abnormal and unsettling to my body. Shamwow makes repeated reference to her detachment. He also mentions her sometimes seemingly unreal ability to not acknowledge her actions, and also her inability to emotionally contextualize her behaviors in a way one would expect from the typical human being.

I didn't read every single post (I read 99% of Shamwow's posts), but I didn't see anybody mention the possibility of the wife experiencing multiple personality disorder / dissociative identity disorder.

My suspicions picked up steam when I read that his wife has epilepsy. She had not experienced a seizure in 15 years, which coincidentally occurred at the same time as the breakdown of her identity and the dissolution of the world she had been living in up until that point.

The sexual nature of her acting out and the emotional detachment from the situation leads me to suspect that she may have been sexually and/or physically abused as a child.

"*The Epilepsy Foundation explains that sexual or physical abuse is the leading cause of psychogenic seizures, where the abuse occurred during childhood.*"

There are numerous references in the medical literature relating multiple personality disorder / dissociative identity disorder / split personalities to physical or sexual abuse in childhood.


Here are some examples of the kind of material that's out there:

Dual Personality Associated With Epilepsy
JAMA Network | JAMA Neurology | Dual Personality Associated With Epilepsy
"Two individuals with well-defined seizure problems developed dual personalities. *One personality was irritable and hostile, the other placid*; in each case, a major seizure preceded the shift from the former to the latter. *Each personality was amnesic for the other*. The incidence of seizures in patients with multiple personality disorder is higher than expected, and these cases demonstrate a direct relationship."

Medscape: Medscape Access
"Dissociation is the disruption of the normal integrative processes of consciousness, perception, memory, and identity that define selfhood.

*Dissociative identity disorder is increasingly understood as a complex and chronic posttraumatic psychopathology closely related to severe, particularly early, child abuse.* Children who have been maltreated or abused are at risk for experiencing a host of mental health problems, including dissociative identity disorder.[1] *This condition manifests with an emergence of 2 or more personality states* including auditory hallucinations, severe depression and suicidality, phobic anxiety, somatization, *substance abuse*, and borderline features that partially or fully predominate the psychologic function of the individual for a period."

Multiple personality and related dissociative phenomena in patients with temporal lobe epilepsy
PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | Multiple personality and related dissociative phenomena in patients with temporal lobe epilepsy


"...*because this disorder is believed to be triggered by physical or sexual abuse in childhood*. Young children have a pronounced ability to dissociate and it is believed that those who are abused may learn to use dissociation as a defense. *In effect, the child slips into a state of mind in which it seems that the abuse is not really occurring to him or her, but to somebody else*. In time, *such a child may begin to emotionally and cognitively split into alternate identities*. Research has shown that the average age for the initial development of alters is 5.9 years old."

From rainn.org:
"While the causes of DID are not entirely known, *it is believed that the disorder stems from physical or sexual abuse in childhood*. It is believed that children develop this disorder when during abusive situations they slip into dissociative states in order to remove themselves from the situation. If the abuse continues over time, it is believed that children may then begin to split into alter identities during these times of dissociation."


Of course I could be completely wrong here. Something to think about perhaps.


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## dymo

the guy said:


> I hope he never comes back...in good way LOL


I'd be interested to hear an update from him, actually. I wouldn't mind knowing where shamwow and everyone else are now.


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