# Finally figured it out - that is, what my wife wants



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

For the longest time I have been believing my wife when she says she is not interested in sex. It has been for me like it is for many of you forever - I am the initiator regularly denied - like 9/10 times. However any and every time it happens we are both happy and enjoy the intimate times. There are two things I have been thinking about. The first is that she judges everything based on what people are supposed to do - ie, get married, have kids, go on vacation - do this or that. The other thing is how what she says about anything is never direct - ie - I am happy to pick up the kids when in fact she means 'I expect you to do it but I want to sound like the nice guy by offering'. Now, the fact that she is an abuse victim and has has always been prudish got me thinking, what if in fact - 'I am not interested in sex' is also like most other things a read-between-the-lines statement. So here's what I did. I just stopped showing interest back. It's been about a month now and I have observed some interesting behavior. I have observed that she is giving me little hints - very very subtle ones. And, what I think she really wants is for me to pursue and for her to resist up until a point that something eventually happens. Then she is happy. 

This may sound a bit mad and you may be thinking well just talk to her - believe me I shall. But for now I want to throw this out there - a theory that as an abuse victim she a. Does not know how in the world to initiate and b. only knows this method - the reject method. I believe now it is her way of validating that I still want her. It serves two purposes, it lets her get what she wants and simultaneously allows her to punish her abuser (manifested as me). 

I say this as though it is a revelation, but I need to understand this dynamic. Living with a sex abuse victim is incredibly difficult and frustrating. But I see now that when I show no interest it irritates her to no end. I am not being cold, I am simply going about the day as normal, being nice as normal and then simply showing her the equal amount of interest she shows me. Her level if irritability is off the scale right now. I am not trying to be mean - just trying to observe. In a way it does make me a bit happy to finally understand that she does in fact want it. Just that she hasn't a clue how to express herself as sex is in her mind a painful thing as well as an enjoyable thing. 

I have to re-evaluate things from here big time. Of course communication must come into the picture. But for now - whoah!
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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

That is really interesting.

But how do you know she really wants sex?

How do you know she doesn't just want to feel wanted through your advances and then "punish her abuser" by rejecting you?

I guess you'll know if her irritability changes into a desire for sex as you pull away?


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Please don't put all abuse survivors into one category. There are many men who gonthroughbthe same thing with their wives who weren't abused. And many survivors who are HD.
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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Maybe she likes control. Holding the sex switch gives her great control. The needier you act, the more empowered she feels. You are now acting as if you could care less. That would strip her of her source of power. Unable to make you jump through hoops for a piece of tail, she'd either have to deal with you as an equal human being or find something else to entice or threaten you with.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

You've established a pattern... you chase, she rejects. But you keep on trying, so she knows no matter what, you love her and desire her.

Now you've been putting consequences to her behavior. 
She's wondering why you aren't chasing her, which can translate into she's wondering if you still love her.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Very common with wives.. You are on the right track. Women and men think about sex very differently


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## needguidance (Aug 17, 2012)

That sounds like its going to take a lot of will power and strength to see the result of this overtime. I really want to know how this works out for you.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

You are a patient man.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> Please don't put all abuse survivors into one category. There are many men who gonthroughbthe same thing with their wives who weren't abused. And many survivors who are HD.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not sure where I made reference to all abused women acting this way. As I was writing this I thought maybe j should mention that I am aware that many women go the other way and look seek out sex and abusive relationships. Sorry if I sounded like I was talking about all abuse survivors but really just telling a story of what I have observed. When my wife told me she was abised I said I am not surprised and that I always suspected it. Then told her she that I understand it is not her fault and that I will never force her to talk about it however if she does wish to, she has a non judgemental ear waiting anytime to listen..
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> That is really interesting.
> 
> But how do you know she really wants sex?
> 
> ...


Unlike other stories I hear here when we do have sex she seems to thoroughly enjoy it. It's like once we get to that point where she does let her guard down it is fun. She does initiate here and there too and one time this year told me 'thank you for one of the best nights of my life'. This was after she went out and purchased candles and body paint etc. other people tell stories of how it is like having sex with a cold body. Much of her body language to me is very suggestive of desire...
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Maybe she likes control. Holding the sex switch gives her great control. The needier you act, the more empowered she feels. You are now acting as if you could care less. That would strip her of her source of power. Unable to make you jump through hoops for a piece of tail, she'd either have to deal with you as an equal human being or find something else to entice or threaten you with.


Control is definitely a big part of it - I can testify to that based in why I learned in therapy. Just now I asked 'how about sometime soon after the kids are asleep we spend some quality time together' - remarkably she gave out an enthusiastic 'sure!'. Back to the control thing...in the past I would have waited till the kids are asleep, concoct a few reasons she should stay up, then get all nerve racked and then spring my desires into her. Usually the reaction is negative - I get it now, that old way makes her feel tricked and cornered. However giving her some time to prepare mentally puts her in control and takes away the element of a desperate partner. Patience is what it is about - patience in the long and short term. It sucks that I have to so closely scrutinize our sex dynamic but I can attest that it feels great to know your wife is comfortable. Takes a lot of trial and error and a lot of resilience to get over the feelings of rejection. Right now I am just happy she feels relaxed!
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## Ina (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm glad you have come to determine that your wife's rejections are not tied to her not being interested in you and how your behavior affects hers. That being said, I think another thing at play here is the connection she craves. This dynamic is present even in women who haven't experienced sexual abuse, but it can be heightened in sexual abuse survivors. You pulled away and she senses a disconnection, now she wants to be close to you, desperate even. Boys this is not a game women consciously participate in; many times this cycle is driven by our insecurities. 

The hard part here is now that you know about ths cycle you will be tempted to use this game to get sex. But be warned, This may eventually heighten her insecurities and can lead to other problems because her confidence and trust may be shaken. However, space in a non threatening way can be a good thing. 

I would tell you that now that you know that you wife wants you and that this is about where she is at, talk to her. The more your wife can trust you, the more she will be able to surrender and enjoy the intimacy you both crave. Oh, and I'm not sure you should tell her about your little social experiment. She may feel manipulated and this could backfire.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

deejov said:


> You've established a pattern... you chase, she rejects. But you keep on trying, so she knows no matter what, you love her and desire her.
> 
> Now you've been putting consequences to her behavior.
> She's wondering why you aren't chasing her, which can translate into she's wondering if you still love her.


For me, I am not a big fan of the '180' as I feel it is a contrived method to deal with contrived behavior of your partner and for me, I at least understand her actions (denying) are actually reactions caused by the trauma of some POS predator she had to contend with in the past. She is a wonderful woman - very supportive and loving and has made me a better person. The least I can do is get over the horrible feelings that rejection bestow on you and try I be real. I have learned a lot recently and just wish to share with others to take a look at your partner and really try to first evaluate if they are being mean or just don't know what to do and maybe need help in the form of patience, kind hearted effort and inderstanding...
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Hicks said:


> Very common with wives.. You are on the right track. Women and men think about sex very differently


And trying to understand that difference is no simple task!
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

needguidance said:


> That sounds like its going to take a lot of will power and strength to see the result of this overtime. I really want to know how this works out for you.


Feel free to friend me here. I don't post much as I feel it a bit rude in a strange way to divulge like this over the net. Mostly just read other's challenges and ways of coping...
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Shoto1984 said:


> You are a patient man.


Thanks! Kind of who I am I guess. One thing I do take pride in about myself is I feel I a good judge of character and like I mentioned - my wife is one of the best - a truly good kind caring and intelligent woman. Least I can do is be patient 
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Ina said:


> I'm glad you have come to determine that your wife's rejections are not tied to her not being interested in you and how your behavior affects hers. That being said, I think another thing at play here is the connection she craves. This dynamic is present even in women who haven't experienced sexual abuse, but it can be heightened in sexual abuse survivors. You pulled away and she senses a disconnection, now she wants to be close to you, desperate even. Boys this is not a game women consciously participate in; many times this cycle is driven by our insecurities.
> 
> The hard part here is now that you know about ths cycle you will be tempted to use this game to get sex. But be warned, This may eventually heighten her insecurities and can lead to other problems because her confidence and trust may be shaken. However, space in a non threatening way can be a good thing.
> 
> I would tell you that now that you know that you wife wants you and that this is about where she is at, talk to her. The more your wife can trust you, the more she will be able to surrender and enjoy the intimacy you both crave. Oh, and I'm not sure you should tell her about your little social experiment. She may feel manipulated and this could backfire.


I totally agree with you about how it is not just abuse victims but anyone with insecurities - especially in today's deranged world of sex marketing / exposure to the max. As for the advice about making it a game - thank you for mentioning that. Actually at this point it really is not about a goal of 'scoring', but rather a path to better relationship intimacy-wise. I have seen things backfire non me before - the best example is some time ago she began emerging from her cocoon after making an effort to get over all this. Suddenly I was getting sex very regularly and made a huge mistake of over-emphasizing how great it all was. This shoved her back into the cocoon. In retrospect it was that showing of intensity that freaked her out. But to your point about using it as a game - no way - that is not what this is about and communication is the next thing to improve. Actually we function on a day-to-day basis as pretty good communicators - it seems the sexual realm is the final frontier. I really thank you for your input. Men and women understanding each other really is a wonderful vision. Ok, trust is the word - crazy how tricky it is to earn it - but definitely want that most 
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

So last night she said all enthusiastically yes let's do something tomorrow after the kids go to bed. If she pulls a sickie on me tonight am I justified in feeling PO'd / what I mean by that is of she bails out at last minute after I've done all the work to put the kids down. In my opinion if she says now while I am about to start kid duty 'I am not feeling well lets postpone' I am fine with that - I respect that but if she song and dances up until 10 then bails it is aggravating and feels deceptive putting me in a place where if I contest I look like a heartless a-hole. I already mentioned nicely 'please let me know if you think you may not be up to it so I don't find out later' - she said ok with a hint of 'ok whatever' undertone. Feeling a bit like the game has started...
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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

KendalMintcake said:


> So last night she said all enthusiastically yes let's do something tomorrow after the kids go to bed. If she pulls a sickie on me tonight am I justified in feeling PO'd / what I mean by that is of she bails out at last minute after I've done all the work to put the kids down. In my opinion if she says now while I am about to start kid duty 'I am not feeling well lets postpone' I am fine with that - I respect that but if she song and dances up until 10 then bails it is aggravating and feels deceptive putting me in a place where if I contest I look like a heartless a-hole. I already mentioned nicely 'please let me know if you think you may not be up to it so I don't find out later' - she said ok with a hint of 'ok whatever' undertone. Feeling a bit like the game has started...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's frustrating but I think if you show frustration she may think that you are being nice to her for sex only. 

Better to treat sex is a natural part of marriage. I know I am speaking to the converted. But be careful not to give her the wrong idea.

You will feel frustrated if she does not keep her promise. I think you should conceal it. Instead, ask her if her motive is to hurt you. If so, then you want her to stop.

She can at lest treat you with the same regard that she treats her friends and other relatives from this time forward. Not angry or whining but strongly stated. 

Hope this helps.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Well looks like my hunch was right - she went to sleep before 8. Before she passed out I asked how do you feel 'like ****'. - I said ' I am sorry and well cancel te massage'. To me that's f'ing rude no apology nothing. Next hour plus I am left to manage the kids, get their clothes ready for tomorrow, shop for lunch stuff, make lunches, bath then and tuck them in to bed. I am a little POd to say te least. I'd be ok with some reference of apology or the likes. It's times like this you can't help but think 'do I really make you that sick'. Actually last night I was on the verge of saying '50 bucks says you'll be sick tomorrow'. I am patience but losing patience...
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Losing patience fast...
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

For her to blow off 5 months like that - go fix you issue or have a bigger one!
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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

KendalMintcake said:


> For me, I am not a big fan of the '180' as I feel it is a contrived method to deal with contrived behavior of your partner ...


Wrong. The 180, and most "game", isn't about manipulating your spouse to create desire. That's just one of the benefits. It's about changing yourself so that you're not walking on eggshells and going crazy anticipating the next rejection.



KendalMintcake said:


> ... and for me, I at least understand her actions (denying) are actually reactions caused by the trauma of some POS predator she had to contend with in the past.


That may, or may not, be true. You may well be confusing correlation with causation. Yes, your wife has suffered abuse. Yes, your wife shows little desire for you. Did one cause the other? Hard to say. I know it's attractive to think that you've found the cause and you have to just deal with it. But, I can tell you that your wife's behavior is absolutely typical of a LD wife. There are millions of men in your shoes with wives who never suffered abuse.



KendalMintcake said:


> I have learned a lot recently and just wish to share with others to take a look at your partner and really try to first evaluate if they are being mean or just don't know what to do and maybe need help in the form of patience, kind hearted effort and inderstanding...


I don't think you've discovered anything. Most women who regularly reject their husbands aren't doing it to be cruel. They're just not turned on. End of story. Yes, it is cruel. But, it's not intentionally cruel. And the only thing accomplished by allowing your wife to continue to be cruel to you is more of the same.

One poster put it best when he wrote that wives should feel safe being sexual with their husbands, and they should feel unsafe being nonsexual with their husbands. That mindset is the goal.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

KendalMintcake said:


> Well looks like my hunch was right - she went to sleep before 8. Before she passed out I asked how do you feel 'like ****'. - I said ' I am sorry and well cancel te massage'. To me that's f'ing rude no apology nothing. Next hour plus I am left to manage the kids, get their clothes ready for tomorrow, shop for lunch stuff, make lunches, bath then and tuck them in to bed. I am a little POd to say te least. I'd be ok with some reference of apology or the likes. It's times like this you can't help but think 'do I really make you that sick'. Actually last night I was on the verge of saying '50 bucks says you'll be sick tomorrow'. I am patience but losing patience...


What To Do When You Don’t Get Laid On Date Night | Married Man Sex Life


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## needguidance (Aug 17, 2012)

KendalMintcake said:


> Well looks like my hunch was right - she went to sleep before 8. Before she passed out I asked how do you feel 'like ****'. - I said ' I am sorry and well cancel te massage'. To me that's f'ing rude no apology nothing. Next hour plus I am left to manage the kids, get their clothes ready for tomorrow, shop for lunch stuff, make lunches, bath then and tuck them in to bed. I am a little POd to say te least. I'd be ok with some reference of apology or the likes. It's times like this you can't help but think 'do I really make you that sick'. *Actually last night I was on the verge of saying '50 bucks says you'll be sick tomorrow'.* I am patience but losing patience...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


\

I hate to joke about this but you left it wide open. You could always take this as a time to setup a tip jar for turn downs lol. Everytime she turns you down or comes up with an excuse you have to deposit $50. I'd try hiding it somewhere so she doesn't know this is the cause of the tip jar filling up. Lol it would be like "if I had 50 dollars for every time you had an excuse. Oh wait, I have a thousand dollars I've collected". You could mix it up and see what other excuses (sick, kids, etc.) for other ways to deposit. Atleast you are saving and keeping count.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

My wife is very much like yours KMC. She rejects a bunch. She was verbally abused by her alcoholic father and made to feel sex was dirty.

When we get into it, she really enjoys it and can be very sexual. I can see her reacting the exact same as you. If I was able to not approach her, she would start to begin leaving hints and showing interest. She wouldn't be real obvious, but she would start to show some caring.

My wife doesn't do well with planning for sex. You would think that planning takes the pressure off (it does for me) but for her, it puts pressure on. Her knowing that is supposed to happen makes her stressed. She will be tired or have a headache or she will just stay up watching tv to avoid it.

It is so confusing because like you say, when you get into it, she really enjoys it. If I really like something, I look forward to it. I think it is confusing for her, because she likes it, but deep down, she thinks it is dirty/wrong.

The same thing happens when I do too much around the house. If I do too much, then she feels pressured to have sex. (because she has told me that maybe she would be in the mood more if I did more around the house)

I have found the way it happens most often is on the weekend late in the morning. She stays up late (avoiding my pressure for sex and because she is a night owl). I get up fairly early, have coffee, shovel, maybe work out. She stays in bed. Around 11am or so, I will come into the bedroom and lay down next to her. Sometimes she is awake, sometimes not. If she is rolled over onto her side, I will just lay in behind her and rub her shoulders or stroke her hair. Just be close, not sexual at all. Sometimes we talk and sometimes it is just quiet. As we are close for an extended period of time, she will start to warm up to me. Put her hand on mine, or back herself up into me. It just sort of happens.

I am wondering how long this will last though. Been like this the last 3 weekends. Soon, she will equate me coming into bed with her with pressure for sex. She will get tense and pull back.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

KendalMintcake said:


> Well looks like my hunch was right - she went to sleep before 8. Before she passed out I asked how do you feel 'like ****'. - I said ' I am sorry and well cancel te massage'. To me that's f'ing rude no apology nothing. Next hour plus I am left to manage the kids, get their clothes ready for tomorrow, shop for lunch stuff, make lunches, bath then and tuck them in to bed. I am a little POd to say te least. I'd be ok with some reference of apology or the likes. It's times like this you can't help but think 'do I really make you that sick'. Actually last night I was on the verge of saying '50 bucks says you'll be sick tomorrow'. I am patience but losing patience...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I went through a period of time where my wife was awful about those sorts of promises. She was all excited about hwo much fun we would have the next night, yet conveniently was unable to follow through.

What was successful for me was to respond (in a bland, almost monotone manner) "Let's not make any plans. We will just see if you are up to it tomorrow." I then went to do something else. Not a 180, but definitely actions that de-prioritized her.

I believe my wife was avoiding the issue. She used a short term stategy to make me happy (the promise) but then a long term strategy of avoiding actually following through (because she had lost a bit of being attracted to me). I just removed the good feeling she got out of the short-term strategy, making it that much more difficult to avoid the issue.

Your wife likely knew this made you excited, and in the short-term was even gald about


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am wondering how long this will last though. Been like this the last 3 weekends. Soon, she will equate me coming into bed with her with pressure for sex. She will get tense and pull back.


Not to go off topic, but mix it up. You need to avoid "training" her that any particular act equates to sex. Think the muscle confusion in the P90X training. So cuddle one weekend morning, but then pull back and let her snooze. Figure out other times to get close together (try a Sunday afternoon movie where you cuddle on the couch, then make your move while watching; tell her you have to stay up late doing something, then crawl in to bed 30 minutes after she does and see what you can do).


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not to go off topic, but mix it up. You need to avoid "training" her that any particular act equates to sex. Think the muscle confusion in the P90X training. So cuddle one weekend morning, but then pull back and let her snooze. Figure out other times to get close together (try a Sunday afternoon movie where you cuddle on the couch, then make your move while watching; tell her you have to stay up late doing something, then crawl in to bed 30 minutes after she does and see what you can do).


Believe me I mix it up. I spend tons of time emphasizing just hanging out and cuddling etc. thanks for the advice - been there done that 
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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Sounds like she doesn't want you, but she wants (or needs) you to want her. You held out for a month, she felt the distance...so she started putting out feelers. As soon as you hit her up for s*x again, she gets to check it off in her brain (yes, he still wants/needs me), and then she can go back to making excuses to shoot down your advances.

Or...maybe I'm just injecting too much of my sitch here.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not to go off topic, but mix it up. You need to avoid "training" her that any particular act equates to sex. Think the muscle confusion in the P90X training. So cuddle one weekend morning, but then pull back and let her snooze. Figure out other times to get close together (try a Sunday afternoon movie where you cuddle on the couch, then make your move while watching; tell her you have to stay up late doing something, then crawl in to bed 30 minutes after she does and see what you can do).


I agree! But the problem is that being married for 25 years makes it difficult to find new ways to 'switch it up'. Especially when I am the only one putting in the effort. But like MMSL says, it is the mans job to initiate!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

KendalMintcake said:


> Believe me I mix it up. I spend tons of time emphasizing just hanging out and cuddling etc. thanks for the advice - been there done that
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, I was not telling you to mix it up (which is my fault for going off topic).

I do think you need to stop these promises. Don't let her even make them. Make it clear in a firm way that those words have no meaning to you. Regardless of her motivation, making it clear that you don't believe her when she makes those statements really takes the power out of them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sam, 
You have bought into the idea that you are 100 percent responsible for making your sexual relationship work. Your wife is solely the gate keeper who vetos or does not veto. You walk on egg shells. 

I may be hd, but the good wife is just as responsible for meeting me in the middle as I am for meeting her in the middle.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

I don't know if I am crazy or what. Last night I setup candles and what-not after telling her I want that massage she promised. She waited very late until the kids went to sleep and once they did locked the door and went to work living up to the agreement a few nights ago. Now the agreement was for a massage and that happened but she has been conditioned I take suck requests as king all the way and had (by locking the door) indicates she was ready for sex too. Well about half way in when is normally put in some moves something came over me - I did but didn't want to. I am a bit tired of the slight forcefulness that is needed, so we ended up just laying around caressing each other until we fell asleep. I got to say I enjoyed that quite thoroughly. Would I have likes to have sex? For sure, but I am at the point where intimacy is more important. I don't care so much to get 'laid'. Sometime ago she told me that it is really important for her to not always feel as though I have to end with fireworks. Regardless, today we've both been in incredible moods. I do think she is a bit bewildered by my behavior and I also think a small part of her wonders if the fact I didn't 'pounce' is a sign of disinterest. Last night after waking up in the middle of the night she did make some comments about how sick she felt - and I think the underlying message is 'I (she) would have given more signs to go ahead and make a move had I not felt so sick'.

All in all I just wonder if I am doing the right thing. Again I enjoyed discovering another side of myself - the side that enjoys being naked with my wife and nothing else. For someone (my wife) who never talks about her sexual desire - I wonder if this is the right way to instill confidence that it ok to be naked around me without threat of me taking control... Must be horrible to live in a place where the most enjoyable aspect about being human is buried under the rugs...
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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

unbelievable said:


> Maybe she likes control. Holding the sex switch gives her great control. The needier you act, the more empowered she feels. You are now acting as if you could care less. That would strip her of her source of power. Unable to make you jump through hoops for a piece of tail, she'd either have to deal with you as an equal human being or find something else to entice or threaten you with.


A thread that needs to be revived.


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