# Do I have a right to be hurt?



## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Hello
If you're curious about my complete story you may read my past posts. 

It has been a long time since I've posted. Things have been very good for a while now (as good as we'll get I believe) but i can't understand what happened last night and I'm trying to.

My wife has a habit of if she gets frustrated at something (usually the kids) she will take the first chance she sees to put it on me or take it out on me. Something that would be obvious if you were watching the situation unfold but something she vehemently denies.

Last night my daughter was being very difficult as I put her to bed, so my wife had to go talk to her, which made her mad. Since she was doing that I went to go clean up my guitar equipment from the living room (I am an instructor) and then I had to head out to a rehearsal (professional musician also) all of this had been agreed upon and was clear earlier in the day. 

I accidentally (and not very hard) banged my amp against the wall that is shared with my daughters room (who is 6 by the way and doesn't have the touchiness of a baby when going to sleep or anything) when I was putting it away, she comes stomping out quite angry and goes "what the ****?!" and "I said what?" not realizing I'd made that much noise. I responded "I always clean my stuff up before I head out and after the girls are asleep" she says "No **** dip**** the issue isn't you cleaning up it's that you're making so much noise." 

At this point i got very nervous because her anger is very intimidating and frightening to me and in the past it's escalated really badly so, yeah I get nervous. She is still struggling with my past porn use and says she will never ever trust me, i mention that now to put this next part into context.

She then says "Why are you acting that way? it makes me think you aren't being honest about what's going on so i'm just going to assume that instead of going to a rehearsal you've been going to sleep with someone else!" she then says "make sure to get off, tell her i said hi!" and goes to the bedroom. 

I go to rehearsal and then went to bed when I got home. Whenever she has acted like that in the past for last 6-8 months she almost always apologizes right away i was expecting a phone call while i was in transit or at the rehearsal or at least a text. I got nothing and this morning i tried to apologize for making so much noise while cleaning up and for acting nervous. She said well it just proves i can't trust you...

On the one hand, I can't ask her to trust me, that is completely unfair I feel. I think that needs to be earned. I am sorry for the long story here but i wonder if i even have the right to be offended or hurt here at all? I am the one that used porn and chatted and did all that stuff that damaged us. However at what point should my progress be recognized? I haven't looked at porn or anything sexually stimulating since 2009 and haven't masturbated since 2010, and considering we've had sex twice this year I think i'm doing a good job reigning myself in..... furthermore never once since i met my wife in 2004 have I had any inappropriate contact with another person. The most ever is a hug from a friend and even that was while she was there. So the allegation is extra hurtful to me since I have never ever done anything like that. 

Am I out of line having my feelings hurt here?

Thanks for listening.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I don't think you should bother asking if you should be hurt. You should be asking why you would tolerate such a dysfunctional and abusive relationship. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I would say that you both need counseling. Her for her anger issues and you for your fear of her. If what you say is the truth and the entirety, then she is angered about something and that is triggering her. If she has been violent and that causes your fears then that also needs to be addressed. The two of you need to address this and if she is truly scaring you and being violent then maybe you need to seek further counsel and protections for you and your family.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

I would love to do therapy. I don't have tons of time or money and most importantly I'd want here there with me and she refuses. After 4 different marriage counselors in our past she sees it as a waste of time. No the lay of the land is that she tried in our marriage for many years while I wasn't and she doesn't have to do anything right now. If that makes sense. I've long accepted that but I just want to know if my feelings are justified or if I'm being a little baby about it?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

matman said:


> I haven't looked at porn or anything sexually stimulating since 2009 and haven't masturbated since 2010, and considering we've had sex twice this year I think i'm doing a good job reigning myself in.....


 A sexless marraige is defined as having sex 10 or less times a year. Your two times so far this year mean that you are in a sexless marraige. When you got married you took a vow of monogamy, not a vow of celibacy. If you read "His Needs Her Needs" you will see that the number one need for males is sex. Your wife is not meeting this normal need for you. Worse yet, after not meeting your basic need for sex as your wife, she has forbidden you from even masturbating. This is cruel and abusive, why are you letting her do this? She has taken your balls and put them in a jar, it is time to get them back.

First, masturbation is only an issue if you are masturbating while denying your spouse sex. That is not the case here so feel free to masturbate and make sure to tell her that you are doing this; as an FYI, I would guess that your wife is probably secretly masturbating on her own. Second, start demanding that your wife address the lack of sex and demand that she work on fixing it with you. Third, stop buying into letting your wife blame you for everything, yell right back.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It sounds like the trust issues go both ways. I'm wondering why you should trust her (on an emotional level). 

Her accussations of you going out for sex is over the top.

When a person holds on to their anger/distrust, etc long after the issues have been solved has a reason for hanging on to the anger/distrust. The usual reason is that it gives them power in the relationship and their spouse.

If the BS continues to beat up (emotionally) the WS for a long time, it destroys the WS trust in the BS. Doing this makes the WS feel unsafe and ends the ability of the couple to grow emotionally.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

No, you're not out of line. Your wife is greatly out of line, has anger issues, is condescending and disrespectful, and many other things besides.

Perhaps record one of these exchanges and play it back later for her. It may only send her into another fit, but may get through to her. If you can't actually sit down and discuss this reasonably, and can't or won't go to therapy, you have to do it yourself. Personally, I wouldn't tolerate such abuse (and I think it is abuse), and would file for divorce. You have to figure that out for yourself, and of course it is a very hard decision, and you first need to try to fix things.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Along with His Needs, Her Needs, I would recommend the Five Love Languages. It sounds like neither of you are meeting the others. It sounds to me like she is refusing to do anything for you as she see you doing nothing for her (a downward spiral). You both need to read these together and work on meeting each other's needs (these aren't necessarily recovering from the A books, but books on strengthening a marriage, which it sounds like you need) If she is unwilling then do it first yourself, and start practicing some of the techniques to see if she comes around. If she doesn't then maybe it is time to move on.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You can be hurt all you like, but that's not going to solve anything. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Time to put the Daddy pants on! This is about control. She wants to control your whole life. She wants to control your sex life, she wants to control your work life, and she doesn't want you to have any say. Time to lay down the law. If she leaves ahe leaves. You are in for a miserable life if you continue down this path.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you for everyone's response so far

this is a message i just composed to her. Some feedback?

Perhaps it's out of line for me to feel hurt by what you said to me last night but I am. I am working really hard to be a good husband to you. I am not hiding anything from you and I feel very dismissed when you tell me that the reason I'm acting a certain way is because I'm off to have an affair instead of what it is in reality, which is feelings of intimidation and sadness when you're angry. I realize that is something I need to work on because as I said this morning it makes it hard for you to fully express yourself if I don't take it well and I don't think that's good for us. But I don't like being sworn at or called names or accused of things that aren't going on either. It makes me really sad and it hurts a lot. I can of course respect that you don't trust me. And work to earn that as I've been doing. I also know and understand that you need to protect yourself first. Which I also
respect. I can't understand though how you got to me going out and sleeping with someone else based on how I was acting. Especially when all day And all week I've been basically gushing over you. I am crazy about you. I want no one else. I undertand completely that your reality is that you have a husband you can't trust and it must be very easy to get to a place where you don't trust me. I try and do everything I can to make you feel safe but every once in awhile I feel like I let you down. Like last night. That must be an awful feeling and I certainly don't want that for you. I needed to tell you how I felt and I had to write it because it helps me be very clear. If you'd like to call and talk to me about it you of course can. I love you very very very much.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

I haven't sent this to her yet. FYI


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I think you're giving her too many excuses to dismiss your feelings here, as well as being too conciliatory and perhaps even "wussy". Be less understanding and focus more on how her abusive behavior makes you feel, and leave it at that. Of course, that's just my opinion, and others may have far better advice for you, as I haven't had to deal with a situation as extreme as the one you're facing.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

I worried about that as well but if I dont' do that she isn't likely to read it....


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Do you think that she may be doing something behind your back and with holding things from you? Many times, the BS has started a revenge A and then becomes abusive to the WS and the family, as they are felling hatred for themselves for what they have done (this can explain the sexless marriage as well)? It would be them blame shifting and projecting to make themselves feel better about how they have stooped so low.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> Do you think that she may be doing something behind your back and with holding things from you? Many times, the BS has started a revenge A and then becomes abusive to the WS and the family, as they are felling hatred for themselves for what they have done (this can explain the sexless marriage as well)? It would be them blame shifting and projecting to make themselves feel better about how they have stooped so low.


I suppose it's possible.... I wouldn't even know how or when she'd do that. She's so busy all day... to my knowledge.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Without knowing your history (posting from my phone)... It seems way too apologetic and wimpy. I'll leave the rest of what I thought of typing in my head, but it comes down to her not respecting you, and you rolling over to beg forgiveness. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

matman said:


> I haven't sent this to her yet. FYI


Good. Don't.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

thanks for the feedback. I edited out some of the "wimpy" parts. However I do want her to know that i haven't forgotten or dont' understand where she is coming from but placed more emphasis on the fact that how she acted really hurt me. 

I really struggle with how i can justifiably complain about how she treats me when I was the one who messed this up the first time. Despite my progress isn't there still a massive issue here on my part?


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

You have no boundaries and she's egging you on hoping you will grow a pair of balls.

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy?

No woman is attracted to a pushover. 

You sound just like I did until my wife cheated on me.

"His Needs Her Needs" and "The Five love Languages" are great and all, but they apply to healthy people in a relationship. You are not healthy and neither is your wife. You can't fix her but you have a boatload of issues of your own that you can fix.

You need to set some boundaries and start respecting yourself a bit.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

how do I not be a pushover while keeping myself safe? if you read some earlier posts she threatens to call the police anytime I stand up for myself. I've heard about that book and i understand and have practiced the confidence it touts with some success as I've said this is the best year we've had in years but she has several very large levers on me she can simply push on a little and it's game over. Truly a terrifying feeling. Also i'm convinced the second a man appears to be anything but a pushover it's massively threatening to her because of her father as discussed previously also.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

Whatever you do you need to fix your issues even if that means separation.

Living under constant threat? If you are satisfied to live that way then there is nothing anyone on this board or anywhere else can do to help you.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Disenchanted said:


> "His Needs Her Needs" and "The Five love Languages" are great and all, but they apply to healthy people in a relationship. You are not healthy and neither is your wife. You can't fix her but you have a boatload of issues of your own that you can fix.
> 
> You need to set some boundaries and start respecting yourself a bit.


I agree somewhat. Those books are not necessarily only for the healthy people, They are for the people that want to develop a healthy marriage and not necessarily for those overcoming infidelity which so may of the books recommended here are geared towards. I also agree that you need to stand up for yourself. Check out the movie FireProof as it is based on the Love Dare book and see if that might help you as well.


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## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

Yikes. How long have you let her talk to you like that? Do you let anyone talk to you like that? You need to man up, dude. Get some self respect. If you don't have any for yourself, why should she have any for you?


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Disenchanted said:


> Whatever you do you need to fix your issues even if that means separation.
> 
> Living under constant threat? If you are satisfied to live that way then there is nothing anyone on this board or anywhere else can do to help you.


Of course i'm not satisfied with that and I want some help and feedback. Mainly It's nice to know I'm not crazy... I always worry i don't have enough perspective on the events. My questions i about mechanics i need to fix my issues with confidence and such but I can't see how separation would happen without me ending up in jail, not because I would do anything bad but because of her threats in the past about how she would manage such things. My focus is on reconciliation not separation

I have recently tuned into the hot partner cold partner theory and believe it extends well beyond the bedroom into our marriage. She is cold I'm hot, when I've turned it down it levels itself out a bit more. Still no sex of course! LOL


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> I agree somewhat. Those books are not necessarily only for the healthy people, They are for the people that want to develop a healthy marriage and not necessarily for those overcoming infidelity which so may of the books recommended here are geared towards. I also agree that you need to stand up for yourself. Check out the movie FireProof as it is based on the Love Dare book and see if that might help you as well.


If you've read any of the OP's background, I don't think his wife would respond to the proper love language and her needs are much different then a normal woman.

This guy needs to take care of _himself_, which he is obviously not doing.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> I can't see how separation would happen without me ending up in jail


I think you need to separate _because_ of this.

Until this threat is no longer there you got nothing to work with my friend. Sorry.

Ever seen the movie "Misery"?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

matman said:


> how do I not be a pushover while keeping myself safe? if you read some earlier posts she threatens to call the police anytime I stand up for myself. I've heard about that book and i understand and have practiced the confidence it touts with some success as I've said this is the best year we've had in years but she has several very large levers on me she can simply push on a little and it's game over. Truly a terrifying feeling. Also i'm convinced the second a man appears to be anything but a pushover it's massively threatening to her because of her father as discussed previously also.


Has she ever hit you? Ever threatened to hurt you? If so, YOU call 911 and tell them you're being threatened - call, and get out of the house and away from her, keep 911 on the line so she can't accuse you, either. Or carry a VAR so you have a record of what actually happens.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Disenchanted said:


> If you've read any of the OP's background, I don't think his wife would respond to the proper love language and her needs are much different then a normal woman.
> 
> This guy needs to take care of _himself_, which he is obviously not doing.


Perhaps if anyone has dealt with something similar it would be helpful to hear some success stories? It's still strange as I'm the one who cheated right? I mean love languages, no more mr nice guy. How does that apply to a cheater? That was my original intent with this post, do I even deserve to be hurt here because of how I've acted.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

All of this is great advice already.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

No More Mister Nice Guy just tells you that you need to take responsibility for yourself and also take control of your own life.

If you read that book and put it to use you would most likely realize you are worth more then the hell this relationship is putting you through.

Why on Earth would any person tolerate the bullsh!t you are putting up with?

Cause you are very sick.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Disenchanted said:


> If you've read any of the OP's background, I don't think his wife would respond to the proper love language and her needs are much different then a normal woman.
> 
> This guy needs to take care of _himself_, which he is obviously not doing.


I really haven't read the background, I was just throwing this out there as sometimes it takes a shake up, something completely out of the expected to create change. I also suggested the books as it is something they can read together and not feel intimidated (either one) that the other is pressuring them into something. I have read After the Affair, Surviving Her Affair, and Not Just Friends. I got my wife finally to read them, but she thought lots were aimed at the B and didn't really address concerns and issues she was having in the M prior to the A.  She did read the two recommended here and said they made her feel better. I figure anything is worth a shot so why not try?? Sometimes things like this can have surprise outcomes. It all depends on how the person approaches the subject. Closed minds will have no change, but those willing to look at themselves and their spouse can have change elicited if they want to.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> I really haven't read the background.....


And I would usually 100% agree with you under most circumstances, great books for sure.

But not with a psycho who holds her husband under constant threat, thinks he's basically trying to rape her when he puts his hand on her knee and refuses counseling and is hostile to any attempts he makes toward developing a healthier relationship with her.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

She thinks he's a sure thing. In the bag. No matter how she treats him. Sex 2x in 9 months, and freaks out at the thought of masturbating? That's abusive. You need to show her that you're not willing to live with her abuse.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Disenchanted said:


> And I would usually 100% agree with you under most circumstances, great books for sure.
> 
> But not with a psycho who holds her husband under constant threat, thinks he's basically trying to rape her when he puts his hand on her knee and refuses counseling and is hostile to any attempts he makes toward developing a healthier relationship with her.


I concur with your thoughts from these claims. We have to remember that we are only getting one side of the story. I am not doubting what is written, but there is ALWAYS something else and it is not always told. There is his truth, her truth, and somewhere in the middle the real truth. I am just presenting options. I know my WW has said things that happened where she is the glowing person and the things she has claimed happened never did (of course they made me look like an abuser and actually claimed it), but when verified with a third party group that was present when things happened, it was revealed that everything she claimed was a lie and nothing she said happened. She still swears to this day that she can see it happening in her head exactly as she described it, then "her" friends tell her that wasn't what took place and she starts to questions her sanity and link to reality. Not claiming I don't believe the OP, just that we have only one side of this (and it sounds bad).


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

matman said:


> Perhaps if anyone has dealt with something similar it would be helpful to hear some success stories? It's still strange as I'm the one who cheated right? I mean love languages, no more mr nice guy. How does that apply to a cheater? That was my original intent with this post, do I even deserve to be hurt here because of how I've acted.


I just went back and read the first post of all of your posts....WOW!

There are NO success stories for your situation. You're wife has some SERIOUS issues internally as well as HATING YOU!! SHE HATES YOU! WTF man?!?! 

Why are you even in this marriage? Seriously? What the heck do you get out of it? I thought maybe you had some EXTREME porn issue which would cause such a response from your wife so I went back and looked for that as well.

You had an addiction and in 2 years, you quit. I know it'd be bad on a marriage but with ALL of the other ways your wife is abusive, I'm not surprised. Fixing a situation takes BOTH parties and your wife is unwilling....WTF?!?! 

Sorry but you NEED to divorce and you NEED to get your wife looked at. Sorry there's NO WAY she's not going to be (or already is) abusive towards your daughter.

Here is your very first post on these boards
"Hi board!! brand new here. I'd like some advice on a long term issue that is non-judgemental and productive. I am happy to provide as much back story as I can but I'll try and keep it brief.

I have had a problem with porn for a long time. Since I was 14 and saw my first I loved it. When I was 16 I met my first serious girlfriend who had no problem with the porn and participated with me. I had no idea it was an issue I thought it was normal. I met my wife a few years later and we were married when we were 22. We got pregnant in 2006 and had our daughter in 2007. It was at that time that my wife found out and our relationship was of course forever changed. I finally was sober in 2009 and have remained so. My wife asked that I stopped masturbating and have since summer 2010. We got pregnant with our 2nd daughter in August 2010 and she was born May of this year.

Everything has been up and down. It seems to me we have let our problems bleed into every aspect of our relationship. Problem is I have recovered. I have turned my life around without a doubt and feel like I have been a new man since 2009. I have depression and anxiety which I have since got under control. I am responsible, finished school got a great job etc etc. Problem is we've had some dark moments.

In novermber 2009 we had a domestic violence incident where we were arguing and I pushed her. I was arrested went through extreme counseling and learned basically how to control my anger and everything else.

Our biggest issue is that my wife refuses to recognize the change and improvement. Despite my pure honesty and desire to have a loving relationship with her, we can't. She has since (2007) slapped me multiple times, calls me names has pushed me over in a chair, broke a guitar of mine in half and accused me of all sorts of things. It has been unbelievably difficult.

I have reached my wits end she refuses to accept I've changed. If she asks me a question and I am honest, she refuses to believe it unless it's a negative answer. She constantly talks about divorcing me and the other night told me that she was only with me because of technicalities (money car etc)

We've had sex 3 times this year and I can't masturbate because we agreed on that and I am going nuts in the intimacy department.

I need advice and suggestions. Recently I finally vented and let all this out to her and she has given me the silent treatment for 4 days.

I need help!

Thanks again for listening to my crazy story "


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

It's called toxic shame. OP has toxic shame that will prevent him from ever having a healthy relationship.

It's the only thing OP has control over in this situation.

Like I said, if you are willing to tolerate the way you are being treated OP, there is nothing anyone here or anywhere else can do to help you.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

matman said:


> Perhaps if anyone has dealt with something similar it would be helpful to hear some success stories? It's still strange as I'm the one who cheated right? I mean love languages, no more mr nice guy. How does that apply to a cheater? That was my original intent with this post, do I even deserve to be hurt here because of how I've acted.


I have got really angry with my WS at times but nothing physical and no crazy stuff. I would yell about how hurt I felt. But our home still functioned without abuse.
My WS was engaging with 3 other women apart from his leading lady. He continued to lie when I caught him. He either defended himself or was silent. You, on the other hand have done all the right things. To be honest your 'crime' pales in comparison to most other posters' stories. 
She is intimidating you and you are in permanent apology mode. 
If she refuses to go to MC you probably have no choice to leave. I can't see her fixing herself and you sure as hell can't. 
You need IC yourself so that you stop accepting abuse like that, from ANYONE. Stand up for yourself.
This will be very damaging for your children. You need to consider them also. 
Sorry things are so bad for you. You do NOT deserve it.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Now that the first post is there, I think I have read it when first posted. I agree there is something bad going on here, but like I said there is more to the story. In this version the violent history of the OP was omitted (don't read into this as thinking he is hiding something) just that their is always more to the story and this proves it.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

matman said:


> Thank you for everyone's response so far
> 
> this is a message i just composed to her. Some feedback?
> 
> ...


 Do not send this letter. This letter does nothing for you but confirm that you are weak and that she holds all the power. She is playing you the fool, and this letter confirms that she is still fooling you. Do not even send a letter, because if the letter says what it is suppose to say, she will not read it. 

Also, stop "understanding completely that your reality is that you have a husband you can't trust", because she is being unreasonable in not trusting you. From what you have written, she has every reason to trust you. You are missing the point. It is not really about her trusting you, it is about her controlling you. She uses every weapon that she has, including falsely claiming that she believes that you are cheating on her, to beat you down. You know that you are not doing anything wrong, and no reasonable person would think otherwise. She is demanding that you be perfect according to unreasonable standards that she alone determines. No one is perfect, yet she judges you by a standard of perfection that she does not hold to herself. She does this because she wants you to fail. Nothing that you do will ever be good enough as long as she is allowed to be the sole judge and the jury. Stop playing her sick game. Stop letting her do this. She does not listen to you or respect you, why do you listen to her and respect her? You do not need to prove anything to her, as long as you do what you think is right. Stop letting her make all of the rules, and start making some rules of your own. The first rule is that you will no longer deal with unreasonable demands as if they are reasonable. Also, when you are in a sexless marriage where your wife refuses to have sex with you, she has no right to get upset that you are looking at porn or are masturbating.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

I bet $500.00 she's cheating on you.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Disenchanted said:


> It's called toxic shame. OP has toxic shame that will prevent him from ever having a healthy relationship.
> 
> It's the only thing OP has control over in this situation.
> 
> Like I said, if you are willing to tolerate the way you are being treated OP, there is nothing anyone here or anywhere else can do to help you.


With all due respect, i'm here to get some help. I am not willing to tolerate it, hence me being here. I also have no experience dealing with and am looking for advice on how to fix this. I hear what you're saying, that the issues are with me I get that. I don't agree that it will prevent me from ever having a relationship. I am merely respectful of the damage I have caused. It troubles me greatly to see so many people not own up and fix issues that they themselves have caused.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> I bet $500.00 she's cheating on you.


Just based on the interaction described, there's a fair chance you're correct.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

she is not cheating on me. She hates the way she looks, is busy al l the time. All she wants to do is sit on the computer and watch TV. She's not into me or anyone else.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> I am merely respectful of the damage I have caused.


Let me just get this straight, in case I am missing something.

When you say "the trouble I have caused" you are talking about looking at porn right? You are calling yourself a wayward husband because you looked at some porn, is that correct?

Let's just keep the answer short and sweet, I know you've already created about 20 threads covering this, just the facts please.


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## hereinthemidwest (Oct 7, 2010)

I am not trying to be little you in anyway. WAKE the **** up dude! You are a pushover. She's a CLASS ACT *****. There not a women whos married who had sex 3 times this year and then expect him not to jack off! 

You are living in fear so you are allowing her bad behavior. Unpack your balls out of her lunchbag. Then stand up to her. She's abusive both physcial, mental and emotional. Get in IC right away. 
LET HER GO...before you do turn the internet off. This is not a marriage. This women hates you!!!


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> With all due respect, i'm here to get some help. I am not willing to tolerate it, hence me being here


You want some help, here it is:

*Stop tolerating it.*

Get the phuck out of that house and file for divorce. You think she'll call the cops on you?

Get the hell out of the house. Go buy a VAR or a video recorder, and record yourself telling her you're leaving. Create proof that everything was calm when you announced it and then get the ever loving hell out of there.

RIGHT NOW.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

She is likely cheating. The issue here is you. You need ic. Seriously. And never send that letter.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

matman said:


> I hear what you're saying, that the issues are with me I get that. I don't agree that it will prevent me from ever having a relationship. I am merely respectful of the damage I have caused. It troubles me greatly to see so many people not own up and fix issues that they themselves have caused.


 You are not understanding what everyone has been saying. The main issues are mostly with your wife and her getting you to falsely accept blame as she neglects and abuses you. For instance, what exact damage did you cause your wife when you use to masturbate 2 years ago when she refuses to have sex with you? On the other hand, look at the damage that she is causing to your marraige when she is making you live in a sexless marriage. Until you stop accepting false blame, and until you address the fact that the real issues are with your wife, it will never get better for you.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Did u have a affair? Or was it just porn?


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Yes absolutely. Because it caused an issue for her. In addition to me pushing her and getting arrested 3 years ago. If you've read the posts you know that story also.

So those two things.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

Okay so let me just say "the damage you caused" when you looked at porn and yanked the one eyed trouser snake is PHUCKING NOTHING.

Holy sh!t if masturbating is cheating then I'm a cheater for life.

Dude you got serious self esteem issues.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

illwill said:


> Did u have a affair? Or was it just porn?


just porn and a couple of instances chatting online.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

matman said:


> she is not cheating on me. She hates the way she looks, is busy al l the time. All she wants to do is sit on the computer and watch TV. She's not into me or anyone else.


Don't discredit this. My WW hated the way she looked, yet it didn't stop her from taking and sending pics to others, vidoe chatting, texting, sexting, and emailing, IM exchanges, and FB exchanges. Mine worked all the time and was with me when she didn't but somehow managed to take days off from work that I knew nothing about and drove long distances to meet up with the 
OM and consummate their "agreements". Where there is a will and desire there is a way. She obviously has no desire for you, but that doesn't mean there isn't someone else (possibly an EA, internet thing).


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## hereinthemidwest (Oct 7, 2010)

PLEASE GOOGLE: then do a free personality test. 
The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) assessment is a psychometric questionnaire designed to measure psychological preferences in how people perceive the world and make decisions.

Clearly you are a feeler. And your self-esteem is sooo broken you are allowing this because you fear losing her. SHE'S USING YOU for a roof over her head while she chats to guys. Since she is not willing to get help. HELP YOURSELF. They have free tools for building self-esteem. 

If a man shoved / knocked over someone they go to jail. Next time she lays a hand on you call police. The courts will make her get help. Domestic Vil classes.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Disenchanted said:


> You want some help, here it is:
> 
> *Stop tolerating it.*
> 
> ...


Do you mind my asking what your current relationship status is? My wife has been making improvements this year. Enough that I've seen some hope that we can have a chance here. I'd appreciate it if you would please respect the fact that I love her. I'm here for some advice on what happened last night. The vast majority of this year has been good. I respect where you are coming from but I am here for help and advice on repair. i'm sorry if this is infuriating you.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

TRy said:


> You are not understanding what everyone has been saying. The main issues are mostly with your wife and her getting you to falsely accept blame as she neglects and abuses you. For instance, what exact damage did you cause your wife when you use to masturbate 2 years ago when she refuses to have sex with you? On the other hand, look at the damage that she is causing to your marraige when she is making you live in a sexless marriage. Until you stop accepting false blame, and until you address the fact that the real issues are with your wife, it will never get better for you.


Ah! all good points! well it's more about how she view sex and sexuality. Masturbation is overindulgent and selfish and she doesn't view sex a necessity. Plus she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me. So while it does me damage it doesn't do our marriage damage because for that to happen it would have to be what both partners want. If she's happy I'm...ok LOL


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> Do you mind my asking what your current relationship status is? My wife has been making improvements this year. Enough that I've seen some hope that we can have a chance here. I'd appreciate it if you would please respect the fact that I love her. I'm here for some advice on what happened last night. The vast majority of this year has been good. I respect where you are coming from but I am here for help and advice on repair. i'm sorry if this is infuriating you.


Nah I don't mind, You're free to read my story if you like.

I'm divorced. My wife cheated on my after I spent 10 years kissing her ass and tolerating her behavior, thinking I was doing everything the best way it could be done. I would have put up with anything from her. So she cheated on me.


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## hereinthemidwest (Oct 7, 2010)

Hugs Matman...we all want you to use this board to better yourself. Help you on the journey. I do respect the fact you are in love with her. I do. I have a difficult time that you can't see the forrest for all the trees. Clearly she's not IN LOVE with you. Least her actions do not show it. Don't beat yourself up over looking at porn. A lot of married couples watch it together even. If your happy in a sexless relationship thats all it matters.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

matman said:


> I would love to do therapy. I don't have tons of time or money and most importantly I'd want here there with me and she refuses. After 4 different marriage counselors in our past she sees it as a waste of time. No the lay of the land is that she tried in our marriage for many years while I wasn't and she doesn't have to do anything right now. If that makes sense. I've long accepted that but I just want to know if my feelings are justified or if I'm being a little baby about it?


 No, what you need is a PERSONAL therapist so you can learn to stand up for yourself. You don't need her there for that.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Disenchanted said:


> Nah I don't mind, You're free to read my story if you like.
> 
> I'm divorced. My wife cheated on my after I spent 10 years kissing her ass and tolerating her behavior, thinking I was doing everything the best way it could be done. I would have put up with anything from her. So she cheated on me.


My sympathies, it sounds to me like you perhaps have some personal feelings tied in with my story then wouldn't you agree? you're perhaps wanting what was right for you for me. I'm not sure it is, we have a nice life, two daughters and for 90% of the days it's pretty ok. That's more than a lot of the world gets.. I'm just looking for improvement not to collapse this thing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> Plus she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me.


I hope you don't think I'm attacking you or just trying to be mean to you, but man you really do need to pull your head out of your ass.

Did your parents beat you as a child or something? The way you are being treated is inhumane and I feel really bad for you.

I'm trying to give you a little tough love so that you can maybe find some anger.

Nobody in the world deserves to be treated the way you are being treated my friend. 

I too have fear of women issues, and so I relate to a lot of what you are saying. Fear of women usually ends up manifesting as resentments and eventually those resentments spill over into abusive behavior. So maybe you have been abusive, but the cause of the resentments is what needs to be addressed.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

matman said:


> Do you mind my asking what your current relationship status is? My wife has been making improvements this year. Enough that I've seen some hope that we can have a chance here. I'd appreciate it if you would please respect the fact that I love her. I'm here for some advice on what happened last night. The vast majority of this year has been good. I respect where you are coming from but I am here for help and advice on repair. i'm sorry if this is infuriating you.


matman the majority here are only giving their personal opinion as to what you have written. I think you are in a toxic relationship and can do much better. No one is perfect and we all screw up and have arguments but this is abusive and it is not healthy or "normal" good luck.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> My sympathies, it sounds to me like you perhaps have some personal feelings tied in with my story then wouldn't you agree?


Yes for sure. I used to be a spineless jellyfish just like you are.

But I'm not anymore, and never again will I tolerate being treated the way you are.

You'll get there eventually.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

After reading your last post and her telling you that you are bad in bed and that she would like sex but just not with you; it is clear that you are in denial.

No consequences to her actions equals no motivation to change. Allowing her to continue to emotionally abuse you is absurd and only leads to disrespecting you more. Why would she even respect a spouse who allows her to say these things to do you without consequences? If you do not respect yourself then who will? Nobody and I mean nobody respects a doormat. What kind of a role model are you to your children who sees their father allowing their mother to emotionally abuse him this way? Enough is enough.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

hereinthemidwest said:


> PLEASE GOOGLE: then do a free personality test.
> The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) assessment is a psychometric questionnaire designed to measure psychological preferences in how people perceive the world and make decisions.
> 
> Clearly you are a feeler. And your self-esteem is sooo broken you are allowing this because you fear losing her. SHE'S USING YOU for a roof over her head while she chats to guys. Since she is not willing to get help. HELP YOURSELF. They have free tools for building self-esteem.
> ...


I will google that. The police have said they would arrest me for any phone call to the house even if it was me and she said in the past that if I call she'll bruise or cut herself and say I did it. So it's not worth the risk. I don't know that she would get to that point again honestly.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> I'd appreciate it if you would please respect the fact that I love her.





matman said:


> Plus she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me.





matman said:


> we have a nice life, two daughters and for 90% of the days it's pretty ok





matman said:


> she said in the past that if I call she'll bruise or cut herself and say I did it.


I wish you could read the above posts you've made and see the cognitive dissonance going on. 

(1) it isn't love, it's codependency _at best_

(2) she tells you she wants sex, just not with you, and that sex isn't necessary. This is abuse, plain and simple, not love.

(3) Living under threat that she's going to have the cops take you away while denying you a basic human (marital) need is not "ok 90% of the time"

There is nothing for you to repair, you didn't do anything wrong. You're wife should be locked up if what you are telling us is the truth.

I repeat, have you seen the movie "Misery"?

Really.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

matman said:


> Ah! all good points! well it's more about how she view sex and sexuality. Masturbation is overindulgent and selfish and she doesn't view sex a necessity. Plus she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me. So while it does me damage it doesn't do our marriage damage because for that to happen it would have to be what both partners want. If she's happy I'm...ok LOL


 Please read "His Needs Her Needs" today. You will see just how ridiculous your wife's views are when "she doesn't view sex a necessity". The number one "need" for men listed in this book is sex. Notice that the author uses the word "need", thus it is a necessity. When you say that "she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me", you are showing not only that she is abusive of you, but you are also showing that she is not meeting another top need of men listed in the book, "Admiration/Respect". You should not be OK with this.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Mat I don't know what to say to you Dawg. Youre letting your old lady run you around like a whipped dog. Don't send the letter where you're openly begging. You're going to make it worse. Unless you want to live the rest of your life with her in hell, you are going to have to change your "door"Matman image. More than likely, this gal has had it you and will eventually cast you aside like a used rubber. When a woman doesn't want to have sex with you it means they don't love you.
I'm always amazed at the guys on this site who not only believe the way to a girls heart is to let them walk all over you, but that one chick in the whole world is the only one they want to be with and willing to take whatever she dishes out just to be near her.
You saying, "i got very nervous because her anger is very intimidating and frightening to me and in the past it's escalated really badly so, yeah I get nervous" is pathetic. Like my FIL CSM (retired) of the 5th Special Forces would say, " I'd hate to see your performance in a real battle soldier" 
Answer one question honestly. From your observation, who has most of the chicks, the bad boy or good, always kissing her azz, guy. 
I'm sorry to sound so harsh Mat. but you need a dose of reality.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

*Note to all the folks posting on this thread:*

I've read all of matman's threads and posts and it appears from these that either he has very serious personality disorder issues that require professional help or he is pulling everybody's leg.

He claims to have overcome a porn addiction in 2009, admits to one incident of so-called DV (pushing his wife away during an argument) and has alluded to some internet relationships (although he hasn't provided any details on this). According to him, this is the source of his marital problems and he seems to think this explains why his wife treats him the way he says she does and why he and his wife have no sex life.

Here are some of the things he has said in his previous threads:

From *Sacrifice*: _"I am in a huge fight with my wife about this but I firmly believe that it's the man's job to absolutely sacrifice everything for his wife. Do not complain about what you need/want and defer to her opinion always. My wife disagrees but happy wife happy life right? I feel like any women would want to have a sacrificing husband like that. I've told her 1000 times she doesn't need to run purchases by me first, I know she doesn't truly want my opinion or she'd follow it (which she hasn't in the past) and also the biggest thing is that we've had fights about doing things for each other even if they don't want to. For example she recently told me that she doesn't like getting kisses from me but allows me to give them to her because it makes me happy. This made me so so mad because I absolutely DO NOT want her to do anything she doesn't generally want to do. Especially if its for me. Why is all of this such an issue?? Help!"_

From *Strange Problem*: _"Ok so I confided in my wife (something I rarely do but that's another issue) that I never and I mean never have music shut off in my head. It's actually quite difficult trying to go to sleep and it can create a problem when focusing on conversations. It does shut off during three things, for some reason when I read anything it shuts off completely and when my wife and I have sex and when I'm actually playing music of course. She was offended though that it doesn't stop when we talk despite my explaining that it is for every conversation with anyone. She said she's my wife and it should stop when we speak and that it's no surprise that it shuts off when I do my favorite things "Getting off and burying your head in a book" I am hurt and she was very angry as always slamming doors covering my mouth when I tried to respond etc etc"_

From *Wife Calls Me Names*: _"When we have an argument, my wife calls me names. She says I am a moron and an idiot. She's explained to me that when I am acting like one she is going to call me one. I've asked that she stop as it hurts my feelings. You may read our whole story in the infidelity section. It will help you to understand that although I know I deserve this, I still can't help but ask her to stop. It hurts She says she doesn't mean I am an idiot all the time just in that moment. But she doesn't say "you're being such an idiot right now" she says "oh my god your such an idiot" or something to that effect. Any other ideas?"_

From *Need some insight*: _"I know that title is a little vague and I'm not even sure this is the right section to post this in. I am a musician and play gigs about twice a month. It's the only thing I do for myself, I also have a standing rehearsal with the band once a week for an hour and a half. Every week it's a battle to ask my wife to stay with our kids while I go do that. She says i am treating her like a "free babysitter" I usually approach it as "hey I have rehearsal tonight would you mind being with the kids while I go" I feel silly even mentioning that I have rehearsal every damn week because it's always been on the same night and it's been that way for at least 2 years. Every time its a fight. Now with the gigs she usually waits till the morning of and if she's even a little upset with me about anything, she refuses to watch the kids, says I have to hire someone (we dont know anyone and can't afford anyone to watch the kids) and says i can't call her family who is right across the street. That forces me to call my parents who are pretty old and not used to watching kids and she says she's not ok with that. I just don't get it. What more can i do??"_

From *Help!*: _"I keep turning here because i have nowhere else to turn. You may read my past posts to see what i piece of crap I've been in my marriage up to this point. To understand what my wife has dealt with from me. All of which is inexcusable and unforgivable. Things are spriraling though further than I'd thought. Any problem any anything is met with her in my face calling me a ****ing loser or a *********. I ask her repeatedly to stop and she just says that if I'm being one, she's going to call me that. You can imagine how it must feel. Today she got mad at me for a financial problem that while i could've avoided the issue if I'd paid attention a bit more to something with our account. She lost it. We had some money set to pay a bill and some had been accidentally transferred to our checking account and subsequently used. However it turned into she "knew I'd **** her over" and that how dare I do this to her. . . I since looked at our account and she's withdrawn all the money we had so now we really don't have enough to pay the bill, on top of that she took more money out of our checking. I'm sure to "get me back" although i can't say that for sure as I haven't spoken with her. I truly believe this is BPD any input and help from someone who has dealt with this before? Thanks"_

From *Homophobic?*: _"Thanks for everyone's help with my previous post. I have another question/situation if like to get input on. My says that because l don't find men sexually attractive I am homophobic. Now I'm a left-leaning voter I'm all for gay rights have volunteered my time in fact helping with some gay rights events I work with several gay men. I even admitted after her pressing that a man absolutely could pleasure me and it would feel fine because that's true. But I don't want to. I am sexually attracted to women. That's just the way it is I can't help that. If I think about being with a man I just don't like that thought. How to I come back against that argument?"_

From *Sex and emotion*: _"My wife says she doesn't get the emotional tie to sex. She doesn't get why I feel closer to her and says she would never have sex for an emotional reason. This broke my heart as I feel so emotionally vulnerable and close to her when we have sex. I thought she felt the same. She says it's weird that people do it out of love and doesn't believe that anyone ever does. That it's purely lust and biological instinct. To quote her "why does you putting your penis in me show me you love me?" help! My heart is broken I thought we had something special."_

From *I'm now worried about my wife*: _"You can read all my previous posts. Something has occurred over the past two days that probably has been building very slowly and I just didn't notice until it had gotten this bad. Two nights ago we were chatting and having a great time we never just talk like we were but we end up talking for like 3hrs. It was great just shooting the **** but near the end I touched her knee at one point, she goes. "Don't" I said "touch your knee?" and she said "don't touch me ever!" i don't like you and don't trust you i feel as if I'm being molested. You know what that's like right (referring to some unwanted sexual contact a friend tried to have with me in high-school) and it killed the night needless to say."_

From *How do I respond?*: _"So I've posted a lot about the insanity that has gone on in my marriage. However FINALLY in January of this year my wife sought help after discovering PMDD and that every single symptom down to the wire is her. She was prescribed an anti-depressant and boom! new woman. Within a few weeks she was being sweet and normal and nice and she was wanting to talk about problems instead of hit me or scream. However last night we got into a small argument that turned into a big one. She told me that i had no value, that I made 0 contributions in our life and that anything positive in our world is because of her. Anything negative is me. I had long suspected she felt that way because of the way she treated me but to hear her say it was really really painful.

"I asked her why she felt that way and she said "well show me something positive you've done" I have tons of things that i thought were meaningful contributions to our life. She refuted each one. So I'm left this morning feeling completely worthless. I made a sarcastic comment (shouldn't have but I was frustrated, not to proud of it) that "I guess I should just off myself if I'm just taking up space and have no value" she said completely seriously that she wasn't sure why I hadn't.

"I asked if she understood how unbelievably mean that was. She said she didn't f#%# care. (Exact words) how do i tackle this? thanks everyone."_

Literally dozens of posters have given matman sound advice (read NMMNG, get IC, do the 180, separate, etc.) over the past couple of years but, as far as I can tell, he has ignored all of it.

Although I feel sorry for him (assuming his stories are true), I'm not going to offer matman any advice because I don't believe it will do any good. You all can decide for yourselves if you want to spend your time trying to help him or not, but I thought you ought at least know what you were dealing with.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

carmen ohio said:


> *Note to all the folks posting on this thread:*
> 
> I've read all of matman's threads and posts and it appears from these that either he has very serious personality disorder issues that require professional help or he is pulling everybody's leg.
> 
> ...


To the contrary I stated earlier that this year I have been trying to use a lot more confidence in my wife and I's interaction and have had the pleasant surprise that I've seen some success. That came from here. My stories are absolutely true and I resent the idea that i would take time out of my day to come here and pull one over on an internet forum. I have taken a lot of the advice to heart. One thing I'm surprised by is how much i keep hearing the same old same old advice. As if these solutions are the only ones available I'm searching for more. I also heavily resent the idea that I have a personality issue, i've been to counseling many times for depression with different counselors. No one has stated at all that they see anything like that. So one poster on here who has not ever met me sees fit to diagnose me. I have


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

furthermore I'd be happy to answer any questions anyone has about my past issues in as much or little detail as needed. No one has asked.


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

matman said:


> One thing I'm surprised by is how much i keep hearing the same old same old advice.


You keep hearing it because it is the right advice but you refuse to take it.

You have created your own reality and you refuse to create a different one.

Good luck.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

What is the problem with me trying to work to save my marriage instead of turning tale and running? what if we get past this and have 20 30 40 more great years together? wouldn't it make all this worth it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can't MAKE her change her thinking. What you CAN do is man up, read NMMNG and MMSLP and start making changes in YOUR life so that you start to look more attractive to her and every other woman. No woman wants a man she can't respect. You've sunk so far you're below the floorboards. Read the books and report back.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

I guess I'll just have to do that.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

matman said:


> What is the problem with me trying to work to save my marriage instead of turning tale and running? what if we get past this and have 20 30 40 more great years together? wouldn't it make all this worth it?


Or maybe you are wasting your life


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

No woman wants a man who sacrifices everything for her, allows her to make all the decisions, allows her to call him names and act like a psycho hose beast. 

If you think living with the constant threat of prison is normal I shudder to think what your child hood was like. 
Get some counseling soon.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

warlock07 said:


> Or maybe you are wasting your life


From what I've seen you are doing zero to save your marriage.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

matman said:


> What is the problem with me trying to work to save my marriage instead of turning tale and running? what if we get past this and have 20 30 40 more great years together? wouldn't it make all this worth it?


Dude,

If you want to put your genitals in a vice and keep posting over and over about how your wife keeps giving the handle a twist, yet keep ignoring that people are telling you to remove yourself for the situation, go ahead. Also keep ignoring that people are saying the reason WHY she keeps doing this to you is because she doesn't respect you, and by not standing up for yourself, you're further diminishing any respect she might have had for you. It's your life. You can spend the next 10, 20, 30 years hoping that her arm gets tired from cranking on the vice. No skin off any of our noses. We gain no benefit from you extracting yourself or not. We're just trying to tell you what we would do, and what we'd recommend our friends or children to do in your situation. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

PBear said:


> Dude,
> 
> If you want to put your genitals in a vice and keep posting over and over about how your wife keeps giving the handle a twist, yet keep ignoring that people are telling you to remove yourself for the situation, go ahead. Also keep ignoring that people are saying the reason WHY she keeps doing this to you is because she doesn't respect you, and by not standing up for yourself, you're further diminishing any respect she might have had for you. It's your life. You can spend the next 10, 20, 30 years hoping that her arm gets tired from cranking on the vice. No skin off any of our noses. We gain no benefit from you extracting yourself or not. We're just trying to tell you what we would do, and what we'd recommend our friends or children to do in your situation.
> 
> ...


Maybe i respond to a gentler criticism. I appreciate this a lot and perhaps you're right. Maybe i am confusing standing up for myself with the marriage ending when in fact it could in fact save it. And I do see the point hammered home that I've somehow lost respect for myself though I think it's hard for me to see because it's very compartmentalized. I'm well respected at both my jobs and as a community member as I'm a fairly prominent musician in my town.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

diwali123 said:


> No woman wants a man who sacrifices everything for her, allows her to make all the decisions, allows her to call him names and act like a psycho hose beast.
> 
> If you think living with the constant threat of prison is normal I shudder to think what your child hood was like.
> Get some counseling soon.


I had the happiest middle class childhood you could imagine. Parents still together and in love.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

matman said:


> What is the problem with me trying to work to save my marriage instead of turning tale and running? what if we get past this and have 20 30 40 more great years together? wouldn't it make all this worth it?


Because trying to work to save your marriage by your methods ain't gonna work my man. Your methods are what screwed it up to begin with. I'd lay money on it won't be long before your saying, "hey, those guys were right" when your served divorce papers. BTW, Elvis was "a fairly prominent musician in my town" when his wife left him.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Because trying to work to save your marriage by your methods ain't gonna work my man. Your methods are what screwed it up to begin with. I'd lay money on it won't be long before your saying, "hey, those guys were right" when your served divorce papers. BTW, Elvis was "a fairly prominent musician in my town" when his wife left him.


HAHA ON Elvis. That wasn't my point, I just meant I don't have trouble being respected anywhere else so it's not a global self esteem issue for me. So how though am I guess I'm struggling with the idea that i have to shoulder responsibility for my wife's behavior..... but i can see that standing up for myself may solve some of that.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

You have been posting here since around Sept 2011. And honestly your relationship with your wife has gotten worse. You are similar to the young Vet that I had in my office yesterday. I have had him in counseling off and on for about two years. Unlike you he had a good wife. But due to him listening to his dumb father over and over again, he is getting D, and I could go on and on. I finally laid into him yesterday. I told him I just can't sit by and watch his life spiral down any further due to him listening to his father. The kid hugged me. I hope he listens to what I instructed him to do.

You listen but you don't hear. 

I am a professional counselor. Your wife is one sick puppy and I mean one horrible human being if what you are saying is true.

I can come up with a number of reasons you continue to live in this horrible situation. If your counselors knew your whole story they would diagnose you with a personality disorder, but they would not tell you in many cases. If they were treating you for depression, they may never reveal your other issues. I can't tell you the number of Veterans that I have in counseling who have no clue what their diagnosis is until I go over it with them. Some have been seeing psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists for years and have no clue. I go to two locked psychological units every two weeks and half of them and for god's sake, they are in a freaken locked unit have no clue as to their diagnosis. All they have to do is ask. They have access to their records. They go in for treatment, or get locked up and never ask what is wrong with me or what is my diagnosis. 

I have read every one of your posts. Everyone of them. You my friend have a serious disorder. I could diagnos you with several. Your wife is one very sick person and I mean very mentally ill.

A clinician does not need to see a person to diagnos them. And the other posters here on TAM have seen quite a bit and do not need clinical training to call a spade a spade. You have been posting since 2011 and your marriage is a sham, a horrible situation to say the least. And your ability to deny, excuse, and then complain is simply a pattern of your disorder. You keep asking for help, guidance, etc. You get it and then you are back basically with the same complaints. 

Tell me. How since 2011 has your marriage improved? Serously and honestly I see no improvement at all and in fact I see your marriage in horrible shape. Your complain, then blame yourself, then blame your wife, then blame yourself, excuse, deny, complain, and then you are back with the same thing, over and over again.



"The police have said they would arrest me for any phone call to the house even if it was me"

Unless there is more to your story this is simply BS. I have a stupid ass neighbor and there are two to three police cars there about 4 times a week due to domestic violence. He has not been taken away once. His wife stabbed him the other week. Cops came, no one, was taken away. 

There is much of your story that does not make sense, and that my friend is the sad part. Unless you live in my world your story would not make sense. But you my friend have created your world and your story because of your psychological condition and your wife's.

There is no help for you. None, if you continue this sad, pitiful, spiral downward to self destruction. Because unless you change this, we will hear this sad tale repeating itself for the next fifty years if you live that long.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> You have been posting here since around Sept 2011. And honestly your relationship with your wife has gotten worse. You are similar to the young Vet that I had in my office yesterday. I have had him in counseling off and on for about two years. Unlike you he had a good wife. But due to him listening to his dumb father over and over again, he is getting D, and I could go on and on. I finally laid into him yesterday. I told him I just can't sit by and watch his life spiral down any further due to him listening to his father. The kid hugged me. I hope he listens to what I instructed him to do.
> 
> You listen but you don't hear.
> 
> ...


 PM'd you


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Thornburn thank you.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

matman said:


> Thornburn thank you.


We all know how it can be in life. Sometimes the folks that care for you the most here on TAM can be hard. The hardest hitters that took me for a loop really did care. They woke me up. And chastised me when I did stupid and I can do stupid.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

matman said:


> HAHA ON Elvis. That wasn't my point, I just meant I don't have trouble being respected anywhere else so it's not a global self esteem issue for me.


We're not saying you have a self esteem issue. We're saying you are confusing being nice with leading your marriage. Marriages require the man to be strong, to lead, to NOT put up with crap. You've done the exact opposite and gotten what you'd expect - no loyalty, no respect, no desire.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

matman said:


> Ah! all good points! well it's more about how she view sex and sexuality. Masturbation is overindulgent and selfish and she doesn't view sex a necessity. Plus she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me. So while it does me damage it doesn't do our marriage damage because for that to happen it would have to be what both partners want. If she's happy I'm...ok LOL


If she is constantly telling you those things, then she is constantly abusing you, emotionally! You may love her but she does not love you. She is too messed up to love anyone.

No I don't "respect" that you love her. But I'm trying to show you some respect as a human being, telling you what I see in your story. You cannot accept your situation.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

matman said:


> Ah! all good points! well it's more about how she view sex and sexuality. Masturbation is overindulgent and selfish and she doesn't view sex a necessity. Plus she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me. *So while it does me damage it doesn't do our marriage damage *because for that to happen it would have to be what both partners want. If she's happy I'm...ok LOL


That is untrue. If it does damage to you, it does damage to your marriage.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

matman said:


> just porn and *a couple of instances chatting online*.


Everybody seems to have skipped over this..


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

If his old lady has the attitude about sex he describes, can you really blame him Bobby. His wife sounds like Margaret White, the mother in Steven Kings novel Carrie.
As for him, its going to take more than any of us have to fix him. He's living in a false reality and seems to be a bit of a masochist. for example, " Plus she constantly tells me i'm bad in bed and that she wants sex just not with me. So while it does me damage it doesn't do our marriage damage because for that to happen it would have to be what both partners want. If she's happy I'm...ok"


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

matman said:


> just porn and a couple of instances chatting online.





BobSimmons said:


> Everybody seems to have skipped over this..


No one missed that. They have been in recovery for years. He has not done any of those things in a very long time. At some point a WS who has been doing what is needed to recover does get redemption. Not only that but it’s wrong for the BS to beat up (emotionally) the WS for years like this.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> No one missed that. They have been in recovery for years. He has not done any of those things in a very long time. At some point a WS who has been doing what is needed to recover does get redemption. Not only that but it’s wrong for the BS to beat up (emotionally) the WS for years like this.


Ele Girl Thank you for your thoughts you seem to understand where things are for me. I decided to take a stand this weekend and it was really rough, lots of shouting lots of attempts to revert to an older dynamic (she's the victim i'm the bad guy) while i made no progress on discussing the sex issue with her she did seem to finally give a little on caring about my feelings. A day at a time I suppose.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it is a huge problem that, in order for you to live happily with your W, you have to NOT live a healthy life as a man. You can't even glance at porn, you can't masturbate, and you don't even get marital sex more than once in a blue moon.

This is too high a price to pay. Your W is the unhealthy individual and is forcing you into that mold. You need to stop agreeing to these conditions. They are not healthy. They are not OK. You are being abused and accepting it as a reasonable norm.

Go be a healthy man! Go somewhere private and masturbate!


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> I think it is a huge problem that, in order for you to live happily with your W, you have to NOT live a healthy life as a man. You can't even glance at porn, you can't masturbate, and you don't even get marital sex more than once in a blue moon.
> 
> This is too high a price to pay. Your W is the unhealthy individual and is forcing you into that mold. You need to stop agreeing to these conditions. They are not healthy. They are not OK. You are being abused and accepting it as a reasonable norm.
> 
> Go be a healthy man! Go somewhere private and masturbate!


HAHA! so let me counter with something that I always get stuck on. Whenever it comes down to one partner wanting sex and the other not, it inevitably seems to fall to the one who doesn't to suck it up. Isn't it a NEED of the other partner to not have sex? I'm not saying she's right because I DO want sex but how do you reconcile that?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

It's give and take. The one whom never wants to give it, has to at times, as the other one is always generally giving it up. We find ways to justify it, we are tired, we aren't in the mood, etc. The truth is that we are doing without when we want it, so we have to meet the other in the middle and they have to give it sometimes as well.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

matman said:


> HAHA! so let me counter with something that I always get stuck on. Whenever it comes down to one partner wanting sex and the other not, it inevitably seems to fall to the one who doesn't to suck it up. *Isn't it a NEED of the other partner to not have sex? I'm not saying she's right because I DO want sex but how do you reconcile that?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Just catching up. I haven't read every post, but I can tell that you have been given solid advice.
> 
> ...


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

So...... I started reading No More Mr Nice Guy after years of begging from this board. ****. Is all I have to say. It's me to a T. My apologies to you all... I should've picked this up sooner.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Halleleujiah, brother!


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

matman said:


> So...... I started reading No More Mr Nice Guy after years of begging from this board. ****. Is all I have to say. It's me to a T. My apologies to you all... I should've picked this up sooner.


Good for you!


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

matman said:


> So...... I started reading No More Mr Nice Guy after years of begging from this board. ****. Is all I have to say. It's me to a T. My apologies to you all... I should've picked this up sooner.


Good read! Glad you are looking at it.

You really should think about pulling away from her, and physically gaining some space for at least a few weeks.

Matman, she needs to miss you. She needs to work at winning YOU back. You are not attractive to her. This does not necessarily mean that you are not good looking, but she sees you as someone that she despises.

Up the manliness. Up the distance. Find your ego. Create your boundries.

Make yourself desireable to other women. Not to cheat, but to feel validated for yourself and her to see.

Good luck! You will find the change will be exciting.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Lovemytruck said:


> Good read! Glad you are looking at it.
> 
> You really should think about pulling away from her, and physically gaining some space for at least a few weeks.
> 
> ...


I am doing exactly that in fact and it's exciting to think about... it's only like day 2 so you know... HAHA


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Back to my post about ending your marriage....

If these things are enacted, you will see one of two things; she will chase you, or she will move on.

It will be very difficult at making the changes permanent. You are working your end, but she probably won't do the same. She will likely warm up, but I wouldn't hold my breath on her becoming the wife of your dreams.

If she walks away, you will be in a better place emotionally to move forward.

Your needs met???? Your description of her makes me think this is very unlikely. People divorce for lots of reasons. Cheating or abuse are generally acceptable by society. It is abuse in your case. 

Besides your fears for your kids and the money, why would you want to stay with her? 

Fear is a sh!tty motive to be married.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Lovemytruck said:


> Back to my post about ending your marriage....
> 
> If these things are enacted, you will see one of two things; she will chase you, or she will move on.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm perhaps I feel she's capable of meeting my needs..... provided something changes. Obviously that has to start with me and yes i'm prepared for the fact that she may move on..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then start acting like it.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> Then start acting like it.


Sorry wasn't sure what you were referring to..... I am changing things.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

matman said:


> Hmmmm perhaps I feel she's capable of meeting my needs..... provided something changes. Obviously that has to start with me and yes i'm prepared for the fact that she may move on..


Good start with NMMNG.

You will find that your needs are your responsibility. 

She has proven to you that she will not meet them. Not to argue about your feelings, but it seems from outside looking in that she will never be one to put your needs as her priority.

Glad you are prepared for the moving on...I would guess that is part of Tunera's last post. 

It is frustrating to give you hard advice about your bad marriage, then you seem to discount it by sticking up for your wife.

Tunera, am I close? 

I am not sure where the CWI part of this fits in. Maybe your issues are more of preventing infidelity. Either way, your attitude that the marriage has to be saved at all costs is not healthy, IMO.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

matman said:


> Whenever it comes down to one partner wanting sex and the other not, it inevitably seems to fall to the one who doesn't to suck it up. Isn't it a NEED of the other partner to not have sex? I'm not saying she's right because I DO want sex but how do you reconcile that?


Arrange it so she will be able to not have sex with her successor husband and you find a replacement that wants sex with you. Its a win/win Dawg and everybody's happy. (well probably not the successor husband)


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Arrange it so she will be able to not have sex with her successor husband and you find a replacement that wants sex with you. Its a win/win Dawg and everybody's happy. (well probably not the successor husband)


HaHa funny that put a smile on my face. I wouldn't wish that on him though haha.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm glad you're finding your strength. Now go and catch up on your masturbation . (Given your story, this may take a while.)

(Years ago, the scolds would tell little boys that they would go blind if they masturbated, but I think it's somehow the other way around.....)

Anyway, my point is to take a stand for yourself and a normal, fulfilling life. I agree with all the others here. It is your life, after all, and if your primary motivation for keeping your life the way it is is fear, then you need to reject the fear and start really living again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

matman said:


> Sorry wasn't sure what you were referring to..... I am changing things.


 You said you were accepting life without her, so I said to act like it.

Take back your power.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Just and update. I'm confusing the hell out of my wife. I can see it on her face. She has twice tried to get me to start a fight and I won't AND she looks perplexed that I'm being so direct. Normally at this point i would be begging for forgiveness for something I didn't do. I am nervous about beginning to masturbate because i don't want to get pulled back to porn, despite the infrequency of it. I do think I have an addictive personality and I don't want to be sucked into something I can't control.... NMMNG talks a lot about sexual compulsion with men like me. I don't think masturbation by itself is bad... one thing at a time.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Try scheduling it on your calendar. I'm serious! If you know you have a 'date' for doing it, you're less likely to succumb to self control issues and go crazy.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Mat, I normally wouldn't say this and I hope it doesn't get me booted. What I am recommending is wrong but I think in your case many folks on this site would agree and others would be willing to overlook it. Go hire a hooker. I think it would do you more good than anybody I've ever seen. I'm serious man.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Good Lord man, masturbate!!!

Your wife is the castration incarnate, re-masculate yourself!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Acabado said:


> Good Lord man, masturbate!!!
> 
> Your wife is the castration incarnate, re-masculate yourself!


Yes, please. It's a good idea to schedule it if you're worried about compulsions taking over. And you don't have to use porn to get yourself going. You can fantasize.

It is a very natural thing, though, and your W's demands are very damaging, in my opinion, & not just in this regard.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> Yes, please. It's a good idea to schedule it if you're worried about compulsions taking over. And you don't have to use porn to get yourself going. You can fantasize.
> 
> It is a very natural thing, though, and your W's demands are very damaging, in my opinion, & not just in this regard.


That's a very good point.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

ThePheonix said:


> Mat, I normally wouldn't say this and I hope it doesn't get me booted. What I am recommending is wrong but I think in your case many folks on this site would agree and others would be willing to overlook it. Go hire a hooker. I think it would do you more good than anybody I've ever seen. I'm serious man.


While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't like committing felonies and I also would have trouble with using someone like that. Also that truly is cheating...


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

I would like to post an update. First of all I have read NMNG and wow I will be emailing the author to personally thank him and also I feel that i'm 100% described in every single one of those pages. Truly a life changing book. The first few chapters i was going "oh my god...." I've implimented many of the changes. First as it recommends i told my wife what I was doing and she has even agreed to read the book. I've left it on her nightstand we'll see what happens. Secondly confidence has gone through the roof. I am doing thing I never thought I could do. For example, we went on a trip and didn't get in one single fight but i didn't hold back any opinions. I took charge of some things that needed to be done and lo and behold she didn't kill me. On Friday night we were drifting off going to sleep, she snuggled up to me which is unusual but i put my hand on her back and I began feeling a bit aroused. I just said "hey do you want to fool around?" something I never would've done. To my shock she said "oh yes" and we had a very very lovely time. First in awhile. We had a long long productive talk about where this is going and how I've been manipulative as much as she has been also. We came to the conclusion we both have tons to work on and so far it's been working. I'm curious to hear to some other successes with this. Thanks!


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## Disenchanted (Sep 12, 2012)

:smthumbup:

Awesome!!


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

so perhaps this thread needs to move?? (not sure how to do that) but anyways, a few nights ago i had the sex talk with my wife (never knew the birds and bees JK JK) but in all seriousness we talked about our sex life. She told me flat out sex wasn't important at all to the health of a marriage and that she wasn't interested in it at all. 

She ascertains that society has put too much pressure on sex and that it's not a barometer for a healthy marriage and furthermore that healthy marriages don't necessarily include sex. She also maintained that there are plenty of things we could do together that are fun that both of us enjoy not just one of us. How do I handle this in the vein of the nice guy healing techniques?


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

> How do I handle this in the vein of the nice guy healing techniques


that you are a man, and if a sexless mariage is what appeals to her than to find a woman to be married to.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You handle it by telling her that if she is not interested in sex, then you are not interested in being married to her, and you will go find someone who DOES care about sex.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I would agree with the above. You could also try something like "Well, if sex is really that unimportant to you and our marriage, you won't mind if I find a playmate than?"

But don't make any threats, offers, or boundaries that you're not willing to enforce. It will weaken your position further if you don't follow through with what you say. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

the responses are kind of what I was expecting but i should've explained a bit more. One of the things in the book talks about asking for your needs to be met essentially so this was all just brought up because i came to her and asked her if she would have sex with me and i got a whiney "do we have too?" response. During the course of the conversation she maintained that it doesn't mean we won't ever have sex but she doesn't want the pressure of having to have sex. She wants it to unfold naturally when we both want it, so it's not "unbalanced" yet at the same time she's telling me that she never thinks about it or anything. About two weeks ago we had a great session and she seemed to really enjoy it. I don't get it.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So basically, she told you that you'll have sex when she feels like it, and that you better not try to change her mind. 

Enjoy your (non)sex life. She's got you where she wants you. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

matman said:


> the responses are kind of what I was expecting but i should've explained a bit more. One of the things in the book talks about asking for your needs to be met essentially so this was all just brought up because i came to her and asked her if she would have sex with me and i got a whiney "do we have too?" response. During the course of the conversation she maintained that it doesn't mean we won't ever have sex but she doesn't want the pressure of having to have sex. She wants it to unfold naturally when we both want it, so it's not "unbalanced" yet at the same time she's telling me that she never thinks about it or anything. About two weeks ago we had a great session and she seemed to really enjoy it. I don't get it.


Stop asking her for sex.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

smallest sentence and yet the most intriguing. Why should I stop asking for a need to be met?


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

matman said:


> smallest sentence and yet the most intriguing. Why should I stop asking for a need to be met?


Don't ask, lead. Put yourself in your wife's shoes; can you think of anything less hot than a husband saying "can we have sex tonight?" Your wife doesn't respect you because you don't show any bold, independent action.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

That's true, I suppose. She has told me directness and bluntness has turned her on in the past so that was my train of thought. But i like this approach. Plus I think it's a bit early in my healing from this to really change it if that makes sense.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> Don't ask, *lead*. Put yourself in your wife's shoes; can you think of anything less hot than a husband saying "can we have sex tonight?" Your wife doesn't respect you because you don't show any bold, independent action.


This

And lead doesn't mean, take her by the hand and drag her to the bed room. Seduce her, message her..you get the picture, initiate but slowly lead up to it.Where men it's mostly physical, for women it starts mentally..


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

matman said:


> so perhaps this thread needs to move?? (not sure how to do that) but anyways, a few nights ago i had the sex talk with my wife (never knew the birds and bees JK JK) but in all seriousness we talked about our sex life. She told me flat out sex wasn't important at all to the health of a marriage and that she wasn't interested in it at all.
> 
> She ascertains that society has put too much pressure on sex and that it's not a barometer for a healthy marriage and furthermore that healthy marriages don't necessarily include sex. She also maintained that there are plenty of things we could do together that are fun that both of us enjoy not just one of us. How do I handle this in the vein of the nice guy healing techniques?


You could masturbate. And that's a serious idea. And if your wife objects to you masturbating, ask her why? 

Does she really want to be married? Or are her views on sex hot air?:scratchhead:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

matman said:


> smallest sentence and yet the most intriguing. Why should I stop asking for a need to be met?


SOOOOOO many answers to that...
First, men don't ASK their wives for sex. They seduce them.
Second, sex isn't one of the standard needs that should be met like admiration or acts of service, all of which can be met by someone else or something else. Sex is the ONE thing that is between you and your spouse only, so you can't just negotiate for it like a load of laundry.
Third, it's obvious you are a full-blown beta male and NO WOMAN can respect, or want, or - least of all - want to have sex with a beta male. It's disgusting. It's like your little sister's 10 year old male friend wanting to peek at you breasts. 

And your wife is telling you EXACTLY what I'm saying. You may have put on a good chase at first, but as soon as you 'got' her, you quickly melted into a gooey puddle of Nice Guy/beta male and lost her interest.

THAT is why you don't ask for sex.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> SOOOOOO many answers to that...
> First, men don't ASK their wives for sex. They seduce them.
> Second, sex isn't one of the standard needs that should be met like admiration or acts of service, all of which can be met by someone else or something else. Sex is the ONE thing that is between you and your spouse only, so you can't just negotiate for it like a load of laundry.
> Third, it's obvious you are a full-blown beta male and NO WOMAN can respect, or want, or - least of all - want to have sex with a beta male. It's disgusting. It's like your little sister's 10 year old male friend wanting to peek at you breasts.
> ...


Interesting way of putting it.... well I see where you're coming from. My wife has made it clear she wants nothing to do with sex, seducing her is not an option. I've "damaged" her too much. If I keep this new way of handling problems up though I won't be surprised to see her come around as already she is chasing me a bit because i'm not buying into the bull**** anymore. Just on Sunday she used her police threat again because i wouldn't be quiet. I simply left the house and conversation for a few hours. When i came back she tried again and I left again (it's a major boundary of mine) third time I came back she apologized and in theory promised to never do that again.... I really feel silly for even worrying about sex at this point I suppose.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> You could masturbate. And that's a serious idea. And if your wife objects to you masturbating, ask her why?
> 
> Does she really want to be married? Or are her views on sex hot air?:scratchhead:


I'm working up to masturbating but I find it frightening in a way. I'm afraid it'll lead down the porn path again...you mean is she using the no sex thing as a means to an end?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Women typically won't want to have sex with a man they don't respect. It's gross. So, the more you work on your alpha male, the more attractive you will become. 

And AWESOME work on leaving the house like that. Perfect! Amazing how well it works, isn't it?


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> Women typically won't want to have sex with a man they don't respect. It's gross. So, the more you work on your alpha male, the more attractive you will become.
> 
> And AWESOME work on leaving the house like that. Perfect! Amazing how well it works, isn't it?


I know you can only extrapolate from what I've saying and that's tough so I appreciate everyone's efforts. Respect or not though the way my wife was speaking about it wasn't as if, for example, she was married to a more alpha man she would have more sex. She was saying for herself she has no interest in sex at all. She was leaving me out of it. She does not masturbate and claims to have no sexual thoughts at all. So even me being more alpha (something I'm doing regardless if it ends up in the bedroom or not) wouldn't necessarily change that isn't that right?

Yes it worked only to have it revealed later that that was her goal. Made me feel like i had fallen into a trap. Despite her apology she told me she was threatening that to get me to leave and end the conversation....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Did she have an interest in it when you were dating? With others?


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Yes a huge interest but that was before my porn issues and she also claims that she was in better shape then (weren't we all??) and that i wouldn't want to have sex with a "fat girl" She at various times has also told me she did that rope me in and often talks about the crazy times she had with her previous bf and that she was the institutor in it. BUT now claims all of that is gone will never come back and she doesn't miss it at all. I have for years and years felt duped. I thought I was dating and in love with this very HD woman.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, some women DO put out just to get the guy to marry them. And it's true, generally, that women don't 'need' it the way men do and and more easily do without it. But it sounds more like she just doesn't see you as bedroom material any more. And THAT is nearly completely in your control.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> Well, some women DO put out just to get the guy to marry them. And it's true, generally, that women don't 'need' it the way men do and and more easily do without it. But it sounds more like she just doesn't see you as bedroom material any more. And THAT is nearly completely in your control.


Thats very true. Well put and thank you.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

matman said:


> Interesting way of putting it.... well I see where you're coming from. My wife has made it clear she wants nothing to do with sex, seducing her is not an option. I've "damaged" her too much. If I keep this new way of handling problems up though I won't be surprised to see her come around as already she is chasing me a bit because i'm not buying into the bull**** anymore. Just on Sunday she used her police threat again because i wouldn't be quiet. I simply left the house and conversation for a few hours. When i came back she tried again and I left again (it's a major boundary of mine) third time I came back she apologized and in theory promised to never do that again.... I really feel silly for even worrying about sex at this point I suppose.


You need to nip that police threat in the bud or leave for good. Leaving for a few hours isn't going to make it stop, you need to pack a bag and stay at a hotel for at least a day.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

suddenly had a revelation today that maybe i made a mistake telling my wife about the NMMNG thing because 1. It suddenly hit me out of nowhere that I was seeking her approval. and 2. She has already tried to use it against me...... the books suggests telling your spouse but in my situation that may not have been wise... what do you guys think?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Real men don't LET their wives use books against them. They let their wives think whatever they want, while they are busy doing what they want.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> Real men don't LET their wives use books against them. They let their wives think whatever they want, while they are busy doing what they want.


Ah! thank you! man it's hard to see this stuff objectively at first.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

So another update but this time i need some advice, I'd especially like to hear from Turnera if they are reading. It has only been a about 3 weeks since I've started implementing the practice from NMMNG and already my wife has decided we need to separate and divorce. Reading between the lines it reads to me "I'm not going to allow you to make this change for yourself and remain married to me" which in some sense I'm fine with. Do i prefer that she accept me? of course but if that's not going to happen then I suppose it's the end game here. 

Sunday she decided to skip a family event that my parents had planned and paid for for us to attend. I can only assume to "punish" me. Man when i didn't argue her and didn't' engage in the game i thought she was going to lose it for a bit but it all stayed surprisingly calm. Later that evening she wanted to discuss more and started down the divorce road (another weapon she's used) but this time she really seems to want it. At one point though she started telling me how I felt about a few things so I stopped the conversation and said we should continue in a few days when she's thought about it more and that I wouldn't be told what i was feeling and walked out. 

She just texted me and asked if we could resume our talk about separating tonight. I have long stated she's free to go whenever but she hasn't pulled the trigger. So my advice that i need is from a NMMNG or more Alpha stance, how do I handle this evening. I would prefer not to divorce or separate but unfortunately marriage is a two party agreement divorce is a one party decision so how do I role down the road?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

matman said:


> So another update but this time i need some advice, I'd especially like to hear from Turnera if they are reading. It has only been a about 3 weeks since I've started implementing the practice from NMMNG and already my wife has decided we need to separate and divorce. Reading between the lines it reads to me "I'm not going to allow you to make this change for yourself and remain married to me" which in some sense I'm fine with. Do i prefer that she accept me? of course but if that's not going to happen then I suppose it's the end game here.
> 
> Sunday she decided to skip a family event that my parents had planned and paid for for us to attend. I can only assume to "punish" me. Man when i didn't argue her and didn't' engage in the game i thought she was going to lose it for a bit but it all stayed surprisingly calm. Later that evening she wanted to discuss more and started down the divorce road (another weapon she's used) but this time she really seems to want it. At one point though she started telling me how I felt about a few things so I stopped the conversation and said we should continue in a few days when she's thought about it more and that I wouldn't be told what i was feeling and walked out.
> 
> She just texted me and asked if we could resume our talk about separating tonight. I have long stated she's free to go whenever but she hasn't pulled the trigger. So my advice that i need is from a NMMNG or more Alpha stance, how do I handle this evening. I would prefer not to divorce or separate but unfortunately marriage is a two party agreement divorce is a one party decision so how do I role down the road?


I would tell her "so where are you looking to move?"

You don't move she wants to end this she can move no raising your voice cool,calm and dispassionate.

Then tell her regarding divorce go the mediation route if you can.
If she doesn't want to find an attorney and file.
Don't tell her just do it a little shock and awe if you will.
Show her you are tired of the unneeded drama and ready to move on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My response would be: "I really don't care what you do any more. Just let me know when you're moving out so I can rent the space."


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

tom67 said:


> I would tell her "so where are you looking to move?"
> 
> You don't move she wants to end this she can move no raising your voice cool,calm and dispassionate.
> 
> ...


She has already stated that she would move, I'm hesitant to be the one to file for two reasons. A.) I don't want that, so I don't want to be coerced into doing something I don't want to do. and B.) I don't want to give her a victim card so to speak. Something she can trash me with to her family and friends and cry woh is me he's left me!! lol


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

turnera said:


> My response would be: "I really don't care what you do any more. Just let me know when you're moving out so I can rent the space."


Turnera, wouldn't it be a bit more complicated then that? we have two daughters. Or is the goal of that simply to let her know I won't be manipulated like that?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's no reason to talk any more. If you still, inconceivably, want to R with her, the ONLY way it will ever work is if she hits rock bottom, faces her demons, shows UTTER humility, admits what she's done, and then tells you without blaming you ONE BIT what she plans to do to be a better partner.

All while you remain silent and continue the divorce process.

And then, if she CONTINUES to say she wants to R, you will say only 'when you can show me true remorse and true ACTIONS toward becoming a person worthy of me staying for, I'll consider halting the divorce. As it is, there's no reason to do so.'


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, it's not more complicated than that. mat, you're still trying to control her, to manipulate her into wanting you and wanting to BE what you want and need. You can't do that. 

Until you finally get that - REALLY let go of what she does - you'll be led around by the nose and it will be all the worse for the kids.

If nothing else, your KIDS need to see you showing strength, so they will look for similarly strong husbands some day. If you don't stand up to her, THEY will also grow up to be shrill, manipulative women who hate men and use them.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

matman said:


> She has already stated that she would move, I'm hesitant to be the one to file for two reasons. A.) I don't want that, so I don't want to be coerced into doing something I don't want to do. and B.) I don't want to give her a victim card so to speak. Something she can trash me with to her family and friends and cry woh is me he's left me!! lol


Well...give the close mutual friends "the rest of the story"
I would think real friends would see through this.
Even if some don't at some point you have to do what is right for YOU and not care what her family or other people think.

The truth always has a habit of coming out.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And yes, the goal is to show her that all her blatantly obvious machinations no longer work.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Thanks! I really appreciate that, I can't believe how i have let her lead me around, it's crazy! you're right I'm trying to get her to be something she isn't.... the change is for ME and that is a difficult concept for me to wrap my head around. I keep catching myself, seeking her approval, begging her to stay, I have GOT TO STOP! lol


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Yet another question here. After considering a few things you may be surprised to know I'm going after the sex moratorium, as it's not happening hardly at all and my pursuit of it is causing issues with myself and her. However I'm not a masturbator again due to my relationship, however the book advocates healthy masturbation. In everyone's experience and opinion do i start masturbating and stop pursuing sex with my wife or is it a stop all together in all things sexual?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Take care of it yourself so she loses the control.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

Have you read MMSLP? Goes very well with NNMNG. Glad the light bulb is coming on for you.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

LONG LONG time away!! I thought I'd update

I should apologize I never know where to stick my posts since so many issues bleed into other issues.... but i feel this is firmly in the nice guy area. I have a few updates so I'll make a few posts one at a time. 

We got into a massive fight about something or other and it led to a very very long talk. I was just straight up blunt and honest and it seemed to make an impression. I decided I wasn't going to hide things at all and not cower. I told her a lot of things that seemed to surprise her. I told her I wasn't going be ashamed that I am a very sexual person, I'm not going to allow her comments and actions make me feel ashamed of that. 

I told her (I felt reiterating but to no surprise she acted as if she was hearing this the first time) that i was 100% without a doubt an atheist (after some searching) and that if she wanted to continue to be with me that was something she would have to accept. She asked me "do you mean agnostic?" as if I was so dumb I didn't know what i was saying. I said no Atheist. She said she'd have to think about it. Anyways it went on.

Next morning I'm in the shower for work and when I got out she calls me (she's still in bed) and pats her side of the bed. I lay down and she flips up the covers a bit I slide under. She grabs my hand and boom! no pants HAHA things went from there. She has never ever ever once in the last 7 years of marriage maybe more initiated sex. 

I'm not sure what caused it but i chalk it up as a win in the nice guy catagory. Nice guys don't get laid like that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Amazing how attractive strong men are...good job!


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

It's been an almost breathtakingly rocky ride and I'm not even 100% sure where it will lead. Her push back to me b stepping up was quite intense. I didn't think that the anger, the fighting the irrationality could get much worse on her end. But low and behold the second you start manning up good lord.... I still say worth it despite all the insanity.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So...she's attracted to the new strong man?


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Despite that one morning, I would have to say no. It's almost as if it's a put-off that I'm not leaping to! She's up the criticizm and every conversation is still about "correcting" my bad behavior. In my mind it's getting almost comical because it's so obviously that she doesn't like that she can't control me. At least to me. 

The fear of intimacy issues are really starting to come out. She's never been affectionate or romantic or loving at all (I'm all of those things) but when I went to kiss her goodbye I was "forcing" her to kiss me. We can't start to have a tender moment without her breaking it with a joke.... sigh.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

meh, just move on, then.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Are you suggesting a 180? or just end this thing?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just end it. It's the only chance you have of making her see what you won't accept. As soon as you do that, her admiration for you will increase; whether it's enough to bring her back, who knows? But it's important for YOU to make a decision to not stay in limbo for YOUR sake, anyway. Let her chase you. And if she doesn't, then you know you're better off without her.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

turnera said:


> Just end it. It's the only chance you have of making her see what you won't accept. As soon as you do that, her admiration for you will increase; whether it's enough to bring her back, who knows? But it's important for YOU to make a decision to not stay in limbo for YOUR sake, anyway. Let her chase you. And if she doesn't, then you know you're better off without her.


:iagree:

Atheist eh? From one to another, (if you haven't already) try giving "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand (1943) a read. She's always been one of my favourite fellow godless heathens. 

At it's core the book is about the value of ego and the need to remain true to oneself. If it's too much of a slog, just skip to the climax (courtroom scene) and read through to the end from there.

I think you'll see a parallel between what the hero does to resolve his conflict and what you're being advised to do above.

Sometimes you have to blow something up before you can rebuild.

Note: Do *not* watch the movie first! Despite having Carey Grant as the lead, it SUCKED beyond belief.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

None of Ayn Rand's movies ever did the books justice. Impossible.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Matman,

Do you still love your wife? If you do, you will take Turnera's advice and initiate (not sex) but divorce. You need to get the do it yourself papers and fill in every blank but the spot for her signature. Choose a time and give it to her.

She has to choose a course in her life. She is not happy and she determined not to be. Punishing you is her way of life. This is not going to end.

Do this calmly, resolutely and kindly. Do not be needy and wear a long face. Refuse to discuss anything if she name calls or throws a shxt fit. Just walk away and tell her that you'll talk when she acts grown up. By accepting her abuse you are failing her shxt tests. Once you make it clear that her abuse must end, she may change. That is her choice.

Since your wife is so miserable with you, letting her go is kindness. There may be someone else out there who is better suited to be her husband. You, too, may be happier with someone else.

This has gone on long enough, don't you think?


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

You may feel hurt for "THREE SECONDS!" I will allow it. Now that the hurt is over you need to review who you are and how you want to life a full happy life. Married Man's Sex Life would be a start. Good luck David


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

If it were a matter of walking out the door I would. We have 2 children who i adore and do not want damaged in any way. I am the sole breadwinner and a good chunk of my income is tied to my location i.e our house. If I have to move I lose a large amount of money (for me) every month if I can't successfully relocate my business, yet those child support payments, alimony etc etc wouldn't reflect that. 

Perhaps I am being paranoid. Thoughts?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

matman said:


> If it were a matter of walking out the door I would. We have 2 children who i adore and do not want damaged in any way. I am the sole breadwinner and a good chunk of my income is tied to my location i.e our house. If I have to move I lose a large amount of money (for me) every month if I can't successfully relocate my business, yet those child support payments, alimony etc etc wouldn't reflect that.
> 
> Perhaps I am being paranoid. Thoughts?


Why would you have to move? 

C


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

She is yo-yoing you to get back in control.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

matman said:


> If it were a matter of walking out the door I would. We have 2 children who i adore and do not want damaged in any way. I am the sole breadwinner and a good chunk of my income is tied to my location i.e our house. If I have to move I lose a large amount of money (for me) every month if I can't successfully relocate my business, yet those child support payments, alimony etc etc wouldn't reflect that.
> 
> Perhaps I am being paranoid. Thoughts?


 You really believe your kids aren't being damaged by this behavior? Do you really believe this is healthy for you or your business? Do you really believe losing income is more important than your overall well being?


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