# How to get my husband to read NMMNG or equivalent?



## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

I think my husband would benefit from this book. 

My problem is as follows:

-I don't want him to think I'm unhappy in our marriage. I'm not, I think it could use improvement, but I'm happy in it. 

The book has a lot of testimonies of men who have a marriage on the brink of disaster until the men go through the NMMNG program, after which point they either i)divorce, or ii)have the healthy marriage they wanted. 

I don't want him to think that I'm advising him to read this book because I think our marriage is on the brink of disaster. 

-I don't want to make his already low self esteem (hence the book) lower by giving him what will likely seem to be a huge criticism. 

-I'm nervous about it because I once read another self-help book and told him how much I enjoyed it, so he read it too, and it really upset him. (So you have these needs but think I'm like that? Unacceptable!) We were at odds for a good week, afterwards. 



Posting in general because I'm hoping to hear both men's and women's perspectives on this. 

Women's perspectives because many women have a good nack for working with men's egos while still getting the point across (something I'm personally terrible at)

Men's perspectives because they probably have a good insight into my husband's side. 

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/suggestions!

Athena


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Hi Athena

I wrote this in another thread, that epic Alpha one, so apologies if you've already seen it.



> My husband and I are still healing from a very serious disconnect that started after our first child was born. We are doing very well, but I don't feel that we are as close and connected as we used to be yet.
> 
> Although the initial catalyst to our coming back together was expressed verbally and we managed to talk and explain things that helped us understand, further talking us not helpful. My husband finds it excruciatingly difficult to express his emotions verbally, although he feels them very deeply. I, on the other hand, will talk forever, examining each feeling and motivation minutely.
> 
> ...


I don't know if any of this applies to your situation. But it's my perspective on loving my husband without wanting him to change. Loving him as is. I'm lucky in that he is actually fantastic, but obviously not perfect and sometimes I've thought I wish he'd read this or that, or I wish he'd do things differently.

I'm not doing that anymore, even to myself. It's been interesting over the last couple of weeks to notice how often I fall into negative thinking patterns about him, even though previously I would have said I adored almost everything about him. I'm trying to notice them and stop them immediately, reminding myself it's not helpful. 

As I said, it's only been a short time, and it could be a coincidence, but I have noticed my husband being more open, more loving, doing more of the things I wanted him to do, like bringing me my favourite ice cream as a surprise, spontaneously cuddling me in the kitchen and we've been having lots of sex.

You said you were basically happy, so maybe this approach might be useful. Obviously I wouldn't recommend it in a seriously troubled marriage. I got a lot of ideas from some of Mavash's posts about her husband, they might help you too. Just do a search on her username, or shoot her a pm.


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## MuleM (Nov 13, 2012)

The suggestion would make him feel more insecure I'd think.

I haven't read it, but if there are specific actions in the book that you want your husband to take, I would wait til he does them himself, tell him "I think it's _hot _when you ---(whatever it was)"--with smiles, hugs and such. That would go over better and should increase his confidence while at the same time you get what you want.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Hi Lyris, thanks for the read and reply!

I hear what you're saying. Many of the "nice guy" traits that my husband carries are not a problem, (though I think he'd personally be happier if he didn't have them). 

While we are happy most of the time, we get into some low point about... 6 times per year, and they're typically about some grievance that he's been harbouring for a long time, until he loses his temper about something tiny and it's only after a day's worth of arguing I find out what was truly wrong. 

They typically stem from jealousy or insecurity on his part. He works really hard in our relationship, and pursues me as if we were still courting (which I love) but to such an excess that I find it exhausting! 

For example: our most recent argument was truly about the fact that he found some old electronic communication between myself and a former sexual partner. (How he found it I don't know, it's from years before my relationship with my husband and I didn't even know it still existed). But what he lost his temper about was that I zoned out while he was talking about a logistical issue with his ex-wife. This was almost a year after he found that old electronic communication, and all this while I had no clue that it had happened. 

This sounds very complainy. I'm truly content about 90% of the time and we're not at any risk for divorce or anything like that. I just think it could be better. I want him to be a little more... ok with life in general and our relationship in particular. 

I want him to be comfortable and to bring his own self-care to the table. I feel he is dependent on my approval and scared of losing me to imagined threats. 

Anyway, my first preference would certainly be to accept him the way he is, as you advise. I don't really want to be in the husband-changing business! 

Do you think there's anything I can do myself to make this easier for him? (And by extension, easier for me if he manages to feel a bit more confident after a while?) 

Confused,
Athena.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

Does he have a friend or brother you could enlist to give it to him? Make them promise not to pull you into the equation. Just they thought he could benefit from reading it....


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Athena, have you read the book yourself?

Your husband's victim pukes are not healthy. Also you describe some fear of abandonment and maybe some toxic shame. These are all covered in the book along with other behaviors and thought processes. It sounds like he could benefit from the book.

The problem is that most men who read the book "to fix the marriage" are really doing it to get the approval of their wife. Along the way they learn they need to change for themselves, and the marriage is only a side effect. This is why the author Dr. Glover says NMMNG will either improve a marriage or put it in a long overdue grave. It sounds like you have a generally pleasant marriage so I would not worry about it killing the marriage.

The worry is that he will think he has to do this for you, not for himself. And then it will not be authentic.

I like MarriedTex's suggestion of enlisting a male friend or relative to broach the subject with him. Some of the basic tenets and actions in the book include having more male friends, getting good exercise, spending time doing hobbies or other activities with men, and spending time alone (a day hiking or driving for example). So I think you could be encouraging of him doing something with the guys. If he wants to take up a regular exercise be supportive of the time requirements, and negotiate in a positive way if there is a schedule conflict.

Try to encourage really open and direct communications. This might be something you have to lead with, by being direct and open yourself. And gently encourage him once in a while to be more direct with you.

Covert contracts are where someone does something in order to get something in return, but the other person doesn't know it. For example he might cut the grass thinking you will be pleased, and then he expects sex tonight in return. But you didn't know about that deal! So if you feel he is getting mopey about something, ask him directly if there was something he expected or had wanted which didn't happen.

You can in a positive way encourage him to be direct with his desire for sex. For a true Nice Guy sex is a scary thing, especially the fear of rejection. So he may not be very direct in his requests. Tell him you want to know if he is desiring sex, and encourage him to tell you what he wants to do in the bedroom. Make an effort to have good and frequent sex with him, and tell him that if you are not in the mood you will tell him so but it is not a personal rejection.

He is probably a Touch love language person, so try to increase the non-sexual touch. It may reduce his need for sex and it may reduce his anxieties about rejection.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Been married for 21 years. Any and all attempts to change my husband (even for the good) were met with some serious resistance and shut down. Even now that we're better all I have to do is say ONE THING negative in relation to him (even minor things) and he retreats. As soon as I go back to loving him AS IS he's runs back and can't do enough for me.

No way in heck would I ever ever recommend he read a book. My stance is I think he's perfect right now. Is he? No but I've made a choice to love him anyway despite of his flaws. I'm aware of them yes but I turn a blind eye to them as they aren't dealbreakers.

Right now I'm the happiest I've ever been with him. He's just over the top in love with me right now and I accomplished this by stopping any and all attempts to get my husband to DO anything.

I would suggest YOU read the book. I did and it helped me understand him better.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

MuleM said:


> The suggestion would make him feel more insecure I'd think.
> 
> I haven't read it, but if there are specific actions in the book that you want your husband to take, I would wait til he does them himself, tell him "I think it's _hot _when you ---(whatever it was)"--with smiles, hugs and such. That would go over better and should increase his confidence while at the same time you get what you want.


Hi Mule, thanks! 

That is definitely good advice, and something I do to a small extent but could do more. 

The trouble is that I think he could benefit from some introspection from a couple of angles that he doesn't currently consider, but that I don't think I can bring up on my own. (Nor am I qualified to offer him any kind of psychological-advice!) Thought the book might be a good help from that perspective, but like you say I think it might make him feel more insecure which is the exact opposite of my goal.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Married Tex: I don't know any of his male friends well enough to conspire with them, and he doesn't have a brother. I'm going to try to think about if there's any way I can work this angle though. 

Other problem is I may be the worst secret-keeper in the entire world, which sounds awesome on the surface but really means that I cause problems with my over-sharing of information!  But I'll think on this one, it certainly does sound appealing.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Thor: Yes I've read it. The title sounded like him, so I started to flip through it out of curiosity, and then it was describing him so effectively that I couldn't put it down! 

He's actually partially recovered from a lot of the things discussed in the book since we we've been together. I don't think we could have made our marriage work if he was still the victim he was when we first met. 

He is absolutely touch as a love-language person. Which is a pain right now because I'm away a lot on business (for the short term) and it's exacerbating his insecurity because I can't show my affection for him in the way he likes to receive it. 

After reading the book and discovering these covert contracts, as well as after reading Mem's barometer thread, I started to try to be a better partner when it comes to work around the house etc. He says he likes to do the majority of the cooking and cleaning, (and and and) so I had been sitting on my butt a lot, thinking he really did like it. But who likes cleaning? I should have known better. So I've been working at taking back my share of housework. 

I believe all this extra work he was doing for me was part of a covert contract. 

Does it help to not let him make this contract in that way? I don't know. I feel less useless as a partner though, so at least I'm benefiting...

Anyways. I do believe the victim pukes are unhealthy, and I'm worried about what else is simmering beneath the surface. I know I'm not qualified to psycho-analyse my husband (nor do I particularly want to, I'd rather treat him as his own complete individual). But I'd like all of that to stop, or be reduced! 

Another thing I've started doing since I read the book is telling him I love him because of his own personal qualities, rather than because of the things he does for me. I don't think he believes it. I really do, though, my husband is an amazing man. 

You can tell I'm confused and anxious about this because this is a very rambly posting. Congratulations if you're still reading at this point!


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Mavash: I hear you. I certainly wouldn't respond well if my husband was trying to change me, so I can't expect him to like it either!

While I'm certainly not dealing with deal-breakers, I know these issues make me unhappy with some regularity, and that he's unhappy because of them more often than I am (until his low simmer erupts and boils over onto me as well). I would like to make that better somehow. Am I reaching for the impossible? I know it's not all sunshine and rainbows in marriage. 

Athena


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## 32888 (Oct 20, 2012)

I'm a husband thats just finishing ,his needs her needs.Found it VERY informative and helpful.I can see alot of my/our mistakes in it .We're working together and I think things are the best they've ever been in our marriage.:smthumbup:
My question is what is NMMNG?I assuming I can get it from Amazon.
Thanks for all the help!


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

NMMNG = No More Mr. Nice Guy

It doesn't apply to everybody, so I'd google it before buying!


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> Mavash: I hear you. I certainly wouldn't respond well if my husband was trying to change me, so I can't expect him to like it either!
> 
> While I'm certainly not dealing with deal-breakers, I know these issues make me unhappy with some regularity, and that he's unhappy because of them more often than I am (until his low simmer erupts and boils over onto me as well). I would like to make that better somehow. Am I reaching for the impossible? I know it's not all sunshine and rainbows in marriage.
> 
> Athena


It took me 18 months of getting serious before I got to the sunshine and rainbows part of my marriage. This after I'd sufficiently effed it up for longer than I care to admit.

What I've learned is many times all it takes is ONE to change a dynamic. So if you can analyze the events that cause him to erupt and boil over you have the power to stop it. I totally see my part in how I cause my husband to behave in ways that make me unhappy. Yes I caused it.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Athena1 - my H doesn't like reading much (unless it's about building or boating or fishing)...never mind self help books! Arrhh!!

But he loves lying in bed all cuddled up and having me read to him. I've read a His Needs Her Needs, Love languages , She comes first , and a few others.

I'm happy because he gets the info i want him to hear, he enjoys being read to and we get to share and talk about some good stuff in a really safe cozy atmosphere..

Would this work for you maybe?


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Waiwera that is just the kind of idea that I wouldn't think of myself, but that just might work. I think I'll try this with something that seems less directed at him, and see if he is into it. If that works, I'll move onto my secret NMMNG agenda. He does love hearing me read, so I could see this working, AND it could be something that I can keep going back to as a way to open topics and ideas between us.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> It took me 18 months of getting serious before I got to the sunshine and rainbows part of my marriage. This after I'd sufficiently effed it up for longer than I care to admit.
> 
> What I've learned is many times all it takes is ONE to change a dynamic. So if you can analyze the events that cause him to erupt and boil over you have the power to stop it. I totally see my part in how I cause my husband to behave in ways that make me unhappy. Yes I caused it.


Hmm, it would be nice to change the dynamic without needing to bother H about it. I'm not sure what in particular I'd need to do though... events that cause him to erupt and boil over tend to totally blind-side me.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> I'll move onto my secret NMMNG agenda.


This is manipulative and it won't work. 



> Hmm, it would be nice to change the dynamic without needing to bother H about it. I'm not sure what in particular I'd need to do though... events that cause him to erupt and boil over tend to totally blind-side me.


Try harder. There are triggers I promise you. I changed our dynamic without bothering my husband at all.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

My husband does that secretly resentful thing too. He does it less than he used to, I think that's mostly because of maturity.

The only thing I ever did directly that I think helped was to talk afterwards, after it had all come out and things had calmed down, and discuss why it was a bad way to handle things. And sometimes, if I could see he was resentful about something I'd remind him of those other conversations. Occasionally that would work.

My husband also gets periodically mildly depressed, so I am now very mindful of that. 

Truly though, I would never give a book like that to my husband. It would be saying you, as a person, are not good enough and I want you to fix it. That would hurt his feelings very much, and he'd just retreat immediately.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> Hmm, it would be nice to change the dynamic without needing to bother H about it. I'm not sure what in particular I'd need to do though... events that cause him to erupt and boil over tend to totally blind-side me.


You need to pay more attention. Empathy and intuitive love are what helped me, not having things explained.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> This is manipulative and it won't work.
> 
> 
> 
> Try harder. There are triggers I promise you. I changed our dynamic without bothering my husband at all.


It is manipulative, in a very obvious way. But why won't it work? Isn't it worth a shot? If he doesn't dig it, then that's fine, but until that time what's the harm in trying it? 

Try harder isn't very action-guiding. I've been racking my brains on this for quite a while, my googling of this weird quirk in our dynamic is what brought me to this forum in the first place.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Lyris said:


> You need to pay more attention. Empathy and intuitive love are what helped me, not having things explained.


Hmm, since you and Mavash are united on this front, maybe you're right. I'm honestly feeling exhausted and a little like it's futile to try to understand.


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## gbrad (Jul 20, 2010)

Interesting dilemma, I am reading the book right now, but my wife doesn't know. I didn't tell her I bought it and I read it when she is not around.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Funny! I'll talk to your W and you talk to my H...

In seriousness though the book does mention that the changes you implement might be hard on your partner if she doesn't know what you're doing, and that it could be good to read together? If you're not going to tell her you're reading it, you should still probably give her the head's up that you're doing some personal improvement so she knows that any changes you're bringing into your life aren't as a result of anything she's recently done.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Can you describe some of the events that have caused him to erupt that you had no idea about at the time? Maybe there's a pattern we can help you identify.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Sure, if you don't mind. I'll tell what I think might've been relevant, and hopefully the answers are in there somewhere rather than somewhere else in the daily noise of life that I didn't notice...

As I mentioned in an earlier post, our most recent one was triggered by me tuning out while he was talking about an issue that he'd been dealing with regarding his ex-wife. (I often think he lets her walk all over him, but he doesn't like it when I say that. So my input into those conversations tends to just be listening noises.) He noticed that I'd partially checked out of the conversation and blew up, which means sulking, avoiding me, and saying things in temper that he wouldn't normally say. 

By the next day I was in a calmer state of mind and was trying to hear him out instead of defending myself (bad knee-jerk reaction, defensiveness). And then it came out that he had read something on my computer almost a year ago, that was dated back to before our relationship, that was a sexually provocative communication between myself and a former sexual-partner. 

He had it in his head that I was keeping this old communication for some reason, while in reality I didn't know it still existed and didn't even know what he was talking about until I ran a search on my machine. 

The catalyst to the prior argument was when we were hosting a party and he felt I was ignoring him. This one was actually a really bad one because he shouted at me in front of my friends, something he has never done before or since but really bothered me (and I'm still a bit concerned about it actually). In his mind I was putting our guests ahead of our relationship, and in my mind he wasn't supporting me in hosting. (I asked my sister about it afterwards, and she said that both were true: I wasn't paying him as much attention as I should have and he wasn't helping like he should have). 

Anyways, the real reason he was upset on this one was because my brother-in-law had apparently told a bunch of us that I'd stripped naked at a prior party. (I don't remember my BIL saying this, but it wouldn't surprise me because he has no filter and says things that aren't true all of the time. Our family generally ignores him when he does this.) Anyways, I guess my H thought this must be true since no one contradicted my BIL at the time. So this had been festering in his mind, and he was apparently thinking at the party about all of our guests who may have seen me naked in the past. 

Are two examples enough to note a pattern? Like I said in an earlier posting, they are usually related to jealousy. I could possibly upgrade that to always related to jealousy, but there are likely some exceptions. 

Can you ask more questions if this isn't clear or isn't relevant? I'm not very good at this kind of sharing. 

A


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I think there could be a middle ground between the wise warnings of some of the women who have been through this and where you stand right now. I haven't read the book, but as a man, I'll admit that there are ways that my wife uses to request changes that work much better than others. Then again, being less of a nice guy is not something that we've discussed, and I can imagine that it would be uncomfortable. However, I was such a determined driver personality that in the early years of marriage, I was afraid that I'd come across as disrespectful and uncaring of her opinions. My wife took a positive reinforcement approach much of the time, pointing out examples of behaviors that she really admired, or even responded to emotionally, and it helped us to broach the discussion of areas where I needed to improve. It took time. My suggestion is that you stick to focusing on behaviors, as you do, but use every opportunity to tell him about the emotional and even sexual environment it creates for you when he behaves a certain way. I'd avoid long discussions about it for a time, sticking to specific examples until he sees that creates a genuine response in you, and gives you an opening for more. If he wants to explore the book, let him bring up the idea. Just my opinion.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> I often think he lets her walk all over him, but he doesn't like it when I say that.


Right here you're telling me that you don't trust or accept him fully. I've been there so I know these feelings well. I know your heart is in the right place but sweetie you are not his mother, boss, God, judge, or jury. You're his WIFE, the love of his life the one who is supposed to love him no matter what. He's not perfect and neither are you.

The irony in my marriage is once I let my husband go and let him make his own mistakes without me feeling the need to fix him he began to change ON HIS OWN. 

Oh and just keeping your mouth shut will only get you so far. Your body language, your noted silence on these conversations speak VOLUMES about how much you disapprove of the way he handles his life. And that causes resentment. 

Can you see this?


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Hi Mavash, thanks for the read and reply. 

I should clarify. I don't think I was right to tune him out while he was talking, it was rude of me and I wasn't being a good partner. I apologized and said as much (the next day once I'd finished foolishly trying to defend myself).

I don't think I need to agree with all of his choices in order to respect and love him. I doubt I ever will accept and agree with all of his choices, he doesn't accept nor agree with all of mine but I know he still respects me. I think there is a distinction. 

But in any case. Is your advice to do nothing? Can you clarify? 

As I'm sure is obvious we are a young marriage, but we've been together long enough that I'd like to seek a more active way to minimize this pattern. It's hard on both of us, and it's hard on the kids (though they're too young to get it, but they know something's up). 

A


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Halien said:


> I think there could be a middle ground between the wise warnings of some of the women who have been through this and where you stand right now. I haven't read the book, but as a man, I'll admit that there are ways that my wife uses to request changes that work much better than others. Then again, being less of a nice guy is not something that we've discussed, and I can imagine that it would be uncomfortable. However, I was such a determined driver personality that in the early years of marriage, I was afraid that I'd come across as disrespectful and uncaring of her opinions. My wife took a positive reinforcement approach much of the time, pointing out examples of behaviors that she really admired, or even responded to emotionally, and it helped us to broach the discussion of areas where I needed to improve. It took time. My suggestion is that you stick to focusing on behaviors, as you do, but use every opportunity to tell him about the emotional and even sexual environment it creates for you when he behaves a certain way. I'd avoid long discussions about it for a time, sticking to specific examples until he sees that creates a genuine response in you, and gives you an opening for more. If he wants to explore the book, let him bring up the idea. Just my opinion.


Thanks Halien, you and Mule agree. I do this a little but I'm going to try to amp it up a bit.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> I don't think I need to agree with all of his choices in order to respect and love him. I doubt I ever will accept and agree with all of his choices, he doesn't accept nor agree with all of mine but I know he still respects me. I think there is a distinction.


Agree and accept are two totally different things.

I may not agree with my husband's decisions but I accept them and him. I trust him explicitly to take care of me and our family.

I'll give you a stupid example. The other day my husband told me of a decision he'd made. At first I stupidly argued my case because I didn't agree with him and he naturally withdrew. I realized my mistake and apologized for it. I told him I understood his point of view and while I about choked on the words I said them. And you know what? He showed more love and emotion in that 5 minute conversation than he had for several days that I didn't agree with him.

Men are different than us. They need us to accept them 100% warts and all. Anything less breeds distance.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> Is your advice to do nothing? Can you clarify?


Okay you'll hate this but the best way to describe what I've done is in the book The Surrendered Wife. Don't let the title fool you it's not what you think. It's about letting go and letting our men be free. No more controlling, no more fixing, no more trying to change just learning to love them AS IS right now.

Another good companion to this book is Fascinating Womanhood.

Instead of trying to get your husband to DO something or read a book you need to focus on cleaning up your own backyard first.

I'm to the point now where if I wanted my husband to do anything all I have to do is ask. Before I did this work? Forget it. LOL


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Yesterday my husband told me he didn't know what I did to him but he just can't get enough of me. 

He was so happy with me that he felt compelled to go shopping again because evidently one Christmas present wasn't enough for his awesome wife. LOL

If you want this you'll listen to me. I know what I'm talking about.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Athena1 said:


> Funny! I'll talk to your W and you talk to my H...
> 
> In seriousness though the book does mention that the changes you implement might be hard on your partner if she doesn't know what you're doing, and that it could be good to read together? If you're not going to tell her you're reading it, you should still probably give her the head's up that you're doing some personal improvement so she knows that any changes you're bringing into your life aren't as a result of anything she's recently done.


OK I have to jump in here and say in most cases the author has this one part wrong. It may be ok for you to read it with him, but that is a minority situation.

If you go to the support forums you will see we discuss this issue with some regularity. The majority of the time it backfires when the wife is dialed into the program. Frequently the man initially approaches NMMNG trying to please his wife. He's a Nice Guy after all, and so he starts out that way. So the wife's reactions will necessarily affect his path. The other problem is some wives will actively use the info against him. If she doesn't like his changes she will turn it on him.

I think even in your case where I believe you would not be counterproductive, it is in his best interest to do NMMNG himself and with male friends.

If you do read it with him, I would recommend you encourage him to do the majority of the work away from you. He can talk to you about what he's learned and how he sees himself changing. But he shouldn't do the work with you.

As an aside, being read to is very hot! I totally forgot about that until it was mentioned in this thread. I had a woman read to me and it was incredible. And it wasn't even a steamy book. Weird how it was so hot.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Athena1 when I read your post about your husbands outburst I got the feeling he needs to feel that he is of utmost importance to you. That when he's talking to you....you give him your undivided attention. He probably sees your 'half interest' in him and his conversation as a lack of respect and unloving...which stings a mans ego. Badly.

Why not give him that attention? I'm sure you do already... but maybe up the ante.

Make a point of when he's talking to you that you face him and look him in the eye (not in a creepy way/scary way) and be engaged.

Make a point of asking about his day/work/hobby. Be into 'him'.

One thing I do for my attention loving husband is meet him when he gets home from work/sport/socializing. Whatever I'm doing I stop when i hear his van coming up the driveway and go meet him at the front door/front steps. Give him a smile and kiss and tell him I'm glad to have him home. He often mentions how much he loves this!

Small gestures like these can go a long way for someone who just wants your attention.... you can probably think of ways you can give what he seems, to me, to be wanting


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Agree and accept are two totally different things.
> 
> I may not agree with my husband's decisions but I accept them and him. I trust him explicitly to take care of me and our family.


Yeah, I realised once I was away from my computer that I'd used the word accept incorrectly but it was too late. I do accept, while I don't agree. That is, I accept that it's his choice and doesn't really have anything to do with me, so he can run it the way he wants. I should have said I don't think I need to agree, which I do still believe to be the case.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I told him I understood his point of view and while I about choked on the words I said them. And you know what? He showed more love and emotion in that 5 minute conversation than he had for several days that I didn't agree with him.
> 
> Men are different than us. They need us to accept them 100% warts and all. Anything less breeds distance.


I don't think I should need to agree with everything, but I can be a bit less obvious about my disagreement. 

Love and emotion from H are not in short supply. This sounds awful but I'd actually like it if he dialed down a little. (Though I'd sure miss it if it was gone altogether).


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Yesterday my husband told me he didn't know what I did to him but he just can't get enough of me.
> 
> He was so happy with me that he felt compelled to go shopping again because evidently one Christmas present wasn't enough for his awesome wife. LOL
> 
> If you want this you'll listen to me. I know what I'm talking about.


I've already received Christmas presents from H because he couldn't wait to give them to me and thought I could use them now! (They were super sweet and thoughtful gifts too, I'm using them a ton). 

I'm definitely not trying to up his affection level, I don't know if there is any more up for it to go to!


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Okay you'll hate this but the best way to describe what I've done is in the book The Surrendered Wife. Don't let the title fool you it's not what you think. It's about letting go and letting our men be free. No more controlling, no more fixing, no more trying to change just learning to love them AS IS right now.
> 
> Another good companion to this book is Fascinating Womanhood.
> 
> ...


That name does make me a bit nervous, but no harm in reading it. I'll take a look.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Thor said:


> OK I have to jump in here and say in most cases the author has this one part wrong. It may be ok for you to read it with him, but that is a minority situation.
> 
> If you go to the support forums you will see we discuss this issue with some regularity. The majority of the time it backfires when the wife is dialed into the program. Frequently the man initially approaches NMMNG trying to please his wife. He's a Nice Guy after all, and so he starts out that way. So the wife's reactions will necessarily affect his path. The other problem is some wives will actively use the info against him. If she doesn't like his changes she will turn it on him.
> 
> ...


That all makes sense. I think the point of warning the wife that the husband is doing some personal improvement might still be good, so she's not too concerned about changes she sees in her husband. (Did she do something to upset him? Is he losing interest in the marriage now? etc). 

But I can see why it might be counterproductive to actually go through the book together.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

waiwera said:


> Athena1 when I read your post about your husbands outburst I got the feeling he needs to feel that he is of utmost importance to you. That when he's talking to you....you give him your undivided attention. He probably sees your 'half interest' in him and his conversation as a lack of respect and unloving...which stings a mans ego. Badly.
> 
> Why not give him that attention? I'm sure you do already... but maybe up the ante.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Like I say, I knew (once I'd calmed down) that I was wrong to tune him out. I usually pride myself on being a supportive listener, but I dropped the ball in this instance. (And likely others that I don't know about...) But that is something I do normally put a lot of effort into, since having someone to talk to is one of the greatest parts of a relationship, imo. 

I hear you on small guestures, that sounds really nice how you meet your husband at the door. I'm rarely home first, but I expect there are other things like this that I can do that I'm not doing! I'll watch for opportunities.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Athena1 said:


> Love and emotion from H are not in short supply. This sounds awful but I'd actually like it if he dialed down a little. (Though I'd sure miss it if it was gone altogether).


Be careful what you wish for. I had the same wish when I first got married. My sweet husband complied and it was gone altogether. With him he's either all in with the loving or he's all out. There is no middle ground.

I'll take the loving over nothing no matter how much it gets to be too much sometimes. I've done without and that SUCKED!!!!


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Hmmm, I'm not totally sure this book (The Surrendered Wife) is for me. 

Despite the topic of this thread, I'm not normally big into policing my husband. It seems from the free chapter online that it's a book on how to stop being in charge, which isn't something I think we're struggling with. 

Though I can see how it would seem that way, since I made a thread on how to get my H to read a self-improvement book! 

I typically make far fewer decisions than he wants me to make, in fact.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I agree. I think you have a different problem. You don't appreciate what you have. (just a guess)


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

I disagree, but I will think on what you have said.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Let me ask you this. What specifically do you wish he'd do differently?

You've mentioned your unhappiness with how he deals with his ex and that's he's too affectionate. What else is there? What are you ultimately trying to accomplish? Do you know?


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

I`m not sure you read all of my posts in this thread. 

I don`t actually care that much about the ex thing, that`s a fleeting dislike. The reason it came up at all was because I tuned out while he was speaking about her, and that was the catalyst for the fight that brought out his real issue. (His real issue wasn`t that I tuned him out.) 

And the affection thing, while I did say I could stand to have that toned down a bit, that was in response to your posts about how to amp up the affection on his part. (Which I do appreciate you taking the time to share, by the way, but I just don`t think it`s necessarilly applicable to my situation). 

The thing I`d most like to change is the way he harbours secret unhappinesses. They sit in his mind and cause him to be unhappy, until something relatively trivial finally upsets the balance and it all comes out at last. 

(Not saying his relatively trivial grievances are not valid, I do think they matter to him and to me, but they aren`t as perplexing of a concern. Obviously I should listen better, pay him more attention at our parties, etc). 

What`s not obvious to me is how to create an environment in which he can feel comfortable to tell me what`s wrong before it becomes such a situation. He waits until his anger is so hot that it comes out as a major attack. 

This is the worst symptom of the fact that he really doesn`t like conflict or discord of any sort. (It seems like he`s very direct at his work, from the stories he tells. But he is very indirect at home.) I can`t nail him down to a preference on even trivial things unless I guess until he corrects me. Whereas I`d just like to know, doesn`t mean I`ll do his preference, but if I know then I have the choice. Otherwise I`m left guessing what he might want and then later when he`s bummed about missing out on something I`m trying to figure out why or what it was. 

Our big fights really upset me. Like I said earlier, they`re about 6 per year. But they span a couple of days usually. And he`s been holding onto whatever the negative thought is for far longer. (The two examples I listed in an earlier post sat in his mind for about a year each. Overlapping, because the fights are only a couple months apart). 

While that still leaves a lot of happy time in between, the intensity of the unhappy time is such that I`m searching for solutions. I know my H and I will disagree on things throughout our entire marriage, but I would prefer to go about it in different ways.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My husband is a conflict avoidant too but he never blew up at me he took his feelings underground and went passive aggressive. Still it took me surrendering to get him to feel safe enough to tell me how he feels.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Your husband really does sound a lot like mine, although he blows up less frequently, more like twice a year. The thing with him though, if I've done something, or more likely not done something, that he's annoyed or resentful about, he doesn't * want* to tell me about it. He's too annoyed, and me changing things or doing something about it because he's told me means nothing to him. I have to work it out myself. 

He knows this is unreasonable, but he can't access that part of his brain when he's angry. 

He grew up with a mother who showed a lot of borderline personality disorder traits who would erupt into rage if ever questioned or criticised. He learned to shut down and go underground with any complaint. It has taken a long time of encouraging him to tell me when he is not happy and then *not* defending myself in any way. Just accepting the criticism calmly and with love. No matter what the criticism. 

As I mentioned earlier, we are still healing from a very serious disconnect, and I am taking it one step further by choosing to love and accept him absolutely. I am not allowing a single critical thought to form, as soon as I feel one coming, I shut it down.

I'm not where Mavash is yet, but I have noticed a real softening in my husband. I think he's starting to feel safe with me again.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

My husband grew up with a controlling father and an angry mother. Plus 2 sisters who pinned everything on him and his parents always took their side. So yeah I know how he got to be this way. Nobody cared before about his complaints so why would he think I would?

So I had to start by making him feel safe and now I've moved onto to convincing him that I do in fact care. He is softening up and he is speaking up more. We aren't there yet either but I can see improvement. He's at least telling me what he wants which is more than I got before. The day he tells me I've done something that bothers him will be a celebration. 

He'll tell me now but I have to kinda drag it out of him and it's usually after the fact once I've already figured it out. Still an improvement because at least he'll own the fact that he didn't like something I did. Then I get to prove that I can handle it without shaming, defending or punishing him.


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Your husbands do sound similar to mine. Bad childhood too, he's estranged from his family now. 

I'm happy to put up with criticism if it comes at me in a gentle way. (Now that's not to say I like it, but I'll take it gracefully and not get defensive, just acknowledge.) 

But when it comes at me in the way it comes out when he's very upset, that's a lot harder to take. This'll be days of silent-treatments, not meeting my eyes, sleeping on the couch (him, not me, but I don't send him there nor want him to be there), until he'll tell me in a mean way, or on the flip side very agressive yelling. If we're away from home when he loses his temper, he'll leave me wherever we happen to be. It scares me. (I'm not being melodramatic, that's just the emotion I feel.) 

I don't think I have it in me to lie down and accept that without comment. 

Additionally, the things that are stewing in his mind about me are often false. In the two examples I gave, the first real reason was because he found an old communication of mine. That was real. The idea that I was keeping it for some perverse reason was not. In the second example, he had it in his head that I'd stripped naked at some party. That's totally false, I've never stripped naked at a party. So I don't want to just listen to his accusations without correcting him, because then he'll continue to believe these things are true. 

Does this make any sense? I'm not sure if it's what you're saying or not. 

Side note: thanks for taking the time to talk about this with me. Whether I agree with you or not, it's a good feeling to talk about it. 

A


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

This explains a lot actually. You're dealing with an emotionally stunted, damaged, broken man. That changes everything.

When he gets triggered he responds irrationally and what you need to do is learn how NOT to take it seriously. Try to see through it instead of taking it personally. You also need to learn some coping strategies to deal with him when he flips out. Learn how to set HEALTHY boundaries with his bad behavior. This isn't your fault and you can't fix him only he can do that. But first YOU must stop participating in the dance.

So lets say he's accusing you of something you didn't do. The WORST thing you can do is defend yourself. In fact it's counterproductive. You'd be better off saying nothing. 

The way to deal with angry people is to agree with them. Yes I know it's sounds completely crazy but it works. Give defiant people what they want.

Maybe try reading books like stop walking on eggshells. Read up on childhood abuse and what it does to adults so you can learn how to deal with him effectively.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

BTW I used to be your husband. I'm estranged from my parents, used to yell at my husband, silent treatment, and was full of rage when I'd had enough of life. It's not a fun way to live. My anger was at my parents but I took it out on my husband.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Okay, your husband sounds much more difficult to deal with than mine. Does he acknowledge, when he isn't angry, that he's not dealing with conflict in a healthy way?


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## Athena1 (Nov 7, 2012)

Thanks Mavash. It'll take a huge amount of tongue-biting not to defend myself when he's that upset, but it's worth a try. (Assuming I'm able to do it.)

Lyris:
Post argument he'll say everything was his fault (even the parts that were my fault) but not with sincerity. I do think he feels guilty for the fights, but I'm not sure he's noting the right part of the problem. I do tell him I'd like it if we could figure out how to argue in a more calm way next time, and we generally come up with some solution or other... but they haven't worked so far. 

On a happy note, he did tell me something that was upsetting him last night. He wrote an email about it, which I really appreciated (email take a lot of the emotion out, I've been trying to get him to either write things down or type them out). 

I don't necessarilly get or agree with what he was upset about, but it's a minor thing anyways. I acknowledged his view, rather than agreeing or disagreeing with it. 

I am pretty happy that he did that. 

A


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