# Does unconditional love have to be reciprocal?



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Someone just told me it has to be reciprocal. I am not sure.

My husband loves me unconditionally. I do not think I love him unconditionally. He thinks I do, however. He says he can feel it.

I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him. I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

There is no such thing. There are conditions to your husband's love. If he finds you putting rat poison in his coffee a few times or you send him a video of you pulling a train with all his friends you better believe that his feelings will change.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think your question is based in a belief that unconditional love is a positive. 

I disagree with that. In fact, I'm not even sure that unconditional romantic love is even really possible. 

I think there's a tendency for people in happy relationships to believe their love and/or their partner's love is unconditional. It's easy to say that you'd love him/her "no matter what" when things are good and the relationship is going well and is in a healthy place. 

But true unconditional romantic love would mean that you would keep loving and desiring your partner no matter how well, _or how poorly_, they treat you, your children, other people. If you stop loving someone because they beat you or molest your child, or even just cheat on you over and over, well then your love wasn't really unconditional was it? And I don't see anything wrong with love being conditional. I think it should be. Honestly, if you're "in love" with a partner who abuses you, cheats on you, consistently treats you and your children badly, then there's something wrong with you. That's not healthy, and it's more co-dependence than actual love.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I think it's entirely possible for one partner to have "greater" love than the other. Unconditional love might be mentioned, but real unconditional love is something I have never seen, ever. It gets spouted around a ton during weddings. When I think unconditional, I think of love "under any and all circumstances, no matter WHAT." Well, that doesn't really fly with me personally. We are all the sum of our choices and decisions. If you decide poorly I'm not going to shrug my shoulders and say that I don't think of you any differently. Of course I will. Your actions have meaning.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

zookeeper said:


> There is no such thing. There are conditions to your husband's love. *If he finds you putting rat poison in his coffee a few times or you send him a video of you pulling a train with all his friends you better believe that his feelings will change*.


 What do you think of this, @Duguesclin?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rowan said:


> I think your question is based in a belief that unconditional love is a positive.
> 
> I disagree with that. In fact, I'm not even sure that unconditional romantic love is even really possible.
> 
> ...


Interesting point. 

There is at least one other man on this forum who loves his wife unconditionally, despite the hardship she has put him through. I do not sense co-dependence in him. I think he just truly loves her, flaws and all.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Just thinking logically here as an intellectual exercise,

If it _must_ be reciprocated, then it would seem _reciprocation is a condition_, hence the original love is not unconditional. 

ergo, truly unconditional love need not be reciprocated. 


Now, to a more practical bent,
As others have noted, 100% unconditional love doesn't exist (at least not in any sane person), nor is it likely to be healthy. We all have conditions... but I suspect in any relationship, it is likely that one has more conditions than the other. So even when we peel this back to relative levels of unconditionality, exact reciprocation is not only not necessary, but highly unlikely.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Satya said:


> *I think it's entirely possible for one partner to have "greater" love than the other.* Unconditional love might be mentioned, but real unconditional love is something I have never seen, ever. It gets spouted around a ton during weddings. When I think unconditional, I think of love "under any and all circumstances, no matter WHAT." Well, that doesn't really fly with me personally. We are all the sum of our choices and decisions. If you decide poorly I'm not going to shrug my shoulders and say that I don't think of you any differently. Of course I will. Your actions have meaning.


I am _convinced_ this is possible. Might even be pretty common.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

I don't think couples/spouses REALLY love unconditionally. There are conditions. For example, fidelity, no physical abuse, sexual compatibility, no committing murder, etc....

I think couples SAY their love is unconditional. And even think that given one of the above acts, THINK they'd still love unconditionally...but they don't know that. 

I think that the closest we humans get to unconditional love is for our children, and grandchildren.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Just thinking logically here as an intellectual exercise,
> 
> If it _must_ be reciprocated, then it would seem _reciprocation is a condition_, hence the original love is not unconditional.
> 
> ...


Good points!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I can see what you're saying. I heard Dr. Harley say on his radio show yeserday that when a spouse goes into withdrawal, either from not getting their intimate emotional needs met in the marriage and/or because their spouse continues to hurt them, some will be miserable in that state while others are more comfortable with it. For a spouse who is living independently in their marriage, withdrawal may not affect them as much, while the neglected spouse could suffer health consequences as a result of feeling miserable and unhappy for years. 

And I also think a spouse can still be very much in love, yet decide to leave because they are being mistreated (cheating spouse, for example) and know they need to separate to either save the marriage or end it, despite wanting it to work. One spouse can't drag the other uphill.

So I think it comes down to the ability to withstand an unhappy marriage, in most cases. And some spouses are able to do that forever, while others may decide they don't have a choice but to leave for the sake of their health and well-being.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SunnyT said:


> I don't think couples/spouses REALLY love unconditionally. There are conditions. For example, fidelity, no physical abuse, sexual compatibility, no committing murder, etc....
> 
> I think couples SAY their love is unconditional. And even think that given one of the above acts, THINK they'd still love unconditionally...but they don't know that.
> 
> I think that the closest we humans get to unconditional love is for our children, and grandchildren.


I definitely think my love is conditional. His love does feel unconditional, though.

And I agree that parental love is often unconditional. Or should be.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I can see what you're saying. I heard Dr. Harley say on his yeserday that when a spouse goes into withdrawal, either from not getting their intimate emotional needs met in the marriage and/or because their spouse continues to hurt them, some will be miserable in that state while others are more comfortable with it. For a spouse who is living independently in their marriage, withdrawal may not affect them as much, while the neglected spouse could suffer health consequences as a result of feeling miserable and unhappy for years.
> 
> And *I also think a spouse can still be very much in love, yet decide to leave because they are being mistreated (cheating spouse, for example) and know they need to separate to either save the marriage or end it, despite wanting it to work*. One spouse can't drag the other uphill.
> 
> So I think it comes down to the ability to withstand an unhappy marriage, in most cases. And some spouses are able to do that forever, while another may realize they don't have a choice but to leave.


I am certain the bolded is true.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

There's also the point that an unhappy spouse may withstand a miserable marriage until they have a new point of comparison, which explains why many leave only after they've met someone else.

It's a huge risk to ignore your spouse's emotional needs, even if you're certain they will never leave you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You can love someone without choosing them. For instance, if you have high enough self esteem and self care.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

You have to qualify what you mean by love.

God loves us unconditionally because he made us. He will never stop loving us.
However (and that's a huge however) he will not accept us as his own unless we accept his love. That is conditional. His love never leaves us however even if we give him the finger.
what is love then? Simply, essentially it is the fervent desire to hope for and actively do whatever we can that is the best for that individual. What is best sometimes gets complicated and is at times obvious and at times not, but the conscious knows.

is uncondional love possible in humans? Of course it is; look at mother teresa of calcutta before she was famous. She often got zero reciprocation watching a starving, decease ridden
street person die in her arms.

but what about us? We can love unconditionally. Its not that hard I dont think. But like God, we cannot nor should not accept everyone as our own. There simply are conditions.

the problem often misunderstood is the definition of love and acceptance. They are not the same.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> There's also the point that an unhappy spouse may withstand a miserable marriage until they have a new point of comparison, which explains why many leave only after they've met someone else.
> 
> *It's a huge risk to ignore your spouse's emotional needs*, even if you're certain they will never leave you.


Totally agree.

Makes your own life harder, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

turnera said:


> *You can love someone without choosing them. *For instance, if you have high enough self esteem and self care.


?

Would you like to elaborate?


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## james5588 (Mar 22, 2017)

Unconditional love is totally possible.

It's what we do with it that matters...

So, I know that no matter what, even at its most base, there is a part of me that will always be in love her. Nothing can change that. It may be the epitome of loyalty / it may be the end all of unhealthy, but those those manifestations are conditional upon how we choose to treat each other and the decisions we make in our lives.

The love that i feel for her; however, will always be there...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jorgegene said:


> You have to qualify what you mean by love.
> 
> God loves us unconditionally because he made us. He will never stop loving us.
> However (and that's a huge however) he will not accept us as his own unless we accept his love. That is conditional. His love never leaves us however even if we give him the finger.
> ...


Good question, Jorge, on what is the definition of love.

I think my husband loves me the way God loves me, or as close to that as possible this side of heaven.

My oldest son was describing his dad's love for me recently. I can't remember the words, but it has certainly been made clear to our children how much their dad loves their mom.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Good question, Jorge, on what is the definition of love.
> 
> I think my husband loves me the way God loves me, or as close to that as possible this side of heaven.
> 
> My oldest son was describing his dad's love for me recently. I can't remember the words, but it has certainly been made clear to our children how much their dad loves their mom.


I left a wife because of cheating and abuse. I've left relationships after being severely wounded. However, my love for them did not stop.
I still pray for them earnestly to have a good life. I still remember fondly the good times. I avoid any ill will or negative gossip or vengeful thoughts or actions against them. I do not regret a single day for having left. You can love from afar and still love.


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

jld said:


> Someone just told me it has to be reciprocal. I am not sure.
> 
> My husband loves me unconditionally. I do not think I love him unconditionally. He thinks I do, however. He says he can feel it.
> 
> I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him. I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.


JLD ~
My Goodness, did you mean for your post to sound so cold towards your husband or did I read too much into your words?
VH


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

jld said:


> I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him. I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.


In my case, after marriage, I gradually realized that while my wife loves me in her own ways, she doesn't have that passionate romantic love for me. The result is that I also have grown to love her less. We are nice to each other and spend a lot of time with each other doing things we enjoy. However, aside from the daily "love you", there are never other romantic words ever said or written after I stopped 'being romantic'. She does however want to hold hands in public.

She also once quoted a phrase when we were dating that the best marriages are those in which the husband loves the wife more than the wife loves the husband. I wished that I would have realized the significance at that time. It may not be an issue for some men, but for me it is an important one.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

VeryHurt said:


> JLD ~
> My Goodness, did you mean for your post to sound so cold towards your husband or did I read too much into your words?
> VH


 @Duguesclin, does my post sound cold to you? I was just trying to be as honest and open as possible.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Rowan said:


> I think your question is based in a belief that unconditional love is a positive.
> 
> I disagree with that. In fact, I'm not even sure that unconditional romantic love is even really possible.
> 
> ...


I agree with @Rowan 100%. I think unconditional love is unhealthy. It can lead to tolerance of physical or emotional abuse, and can also lead to "loving someone to death," ie, alcoholics or drug addicts, because it enables those behaviors through co dependence.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Steve1000 said:


> In my case, after marriage, I gradually realized that while my wife loves me in her own ways, she doesn't have that passionate romantic love for me. The result is that I also have grown to love her less. We are nice to each other and spend a lot of time with each other doing things we enjoy. However, aside from the daily "love you", there are never other romantic words ever said or written after I stopped 'being romantic'. She does however want to hold hands in public.
> 
> She also once quoted a phrase when we were dating that *the best marriages are those in which the husband loves the wife more than the wife loves the husband.* I wished that I would have realized the significance at that time. It may not be an issue for some men, but for me it is an important one.


Yes, I agree with your wife. I think these are the safest marriages for the family as a whole.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jld said:


> Yes, I agree with your wife. I think these are the safest marriages for the family as a whole.


This is what works for YOU. Not everyone thinks this way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> This is what works for YOU. *Not everyone thinks this way*.


No one said they did.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

jld said:


> Yes, I agree with your wife. I think these are the safest marriages for the family as a whole.


Maybe I'm the outlier.  In our case, this is why I think that we'll eventually get divorced.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Steve1000 said:


> Maybe I'm the outlier.  In our case, this is why I think that we'll eventually get divorced.


No, I think there are many men and women on TAM who agree with you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Someone just told me it has to be reciprocal. I am not sure.
> 
> My husband loves me unconditionally. I do not think I love him unconditionally. He thinks I do, however. He says he can feel it.
> 
> I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him. I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.


I do not think that his love for you is unconditional. I might feel like that, but there are most likely some things that would cause him to stop loving you.

For example what if you started cheating? How many affairs would it take before he lost his love for you? one? two? five? I don't know what that number is, but at some point that would probably kill his love for you.

What if you started acting completely out of control... yelling, throwing things, hitting him all the time, kitting your kids, etc?

What if you blew all of the money the two of you have saved? Went into deep debt and made it so that he would have to work years to pay off the debt--basically turning him into a slave to the companies that held your debt?

There is something, or several things, that would end his love for you. 

Love between adults is always conditional. He loves who you have been up to now. He loves who you are today. But if you were to start doing things that are out of your current character, that could kill his love for you. This happens in marriage all the time. We read about it in post after post here on TAM.

{note, I think that the two of you are stable enough that this is not going to happen to you two.  }


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

jld said:


> @Duguesclin, does my post sound cold to you? I was just trying to be as honest and open as possible.


Your post does not sound cold. But it does not matter if it is cold or not. If you think it, you should say it.

It reminds me of a question I had in the past: "Do I love my wife and kids enough to lose my life to save theirs?" 

The safe answer when talking to people around you is yes. But, looking at history or the current news, I can clearly say that, for many, the answer is no. So asking again if I would give up my life for my kids, I found the clear answer when our son was diagnosed with cancer. Deep in me I could feel the answer to be yes.

So, do you love me unconditionally? As I know you do not want to disappoint, I therefore know that your answer is going to be negative. Putting you to the test, I am convinced your answer will be positive. Yet, I do not want to test the question because the test would be as dramatic as to what happened to our son.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I do not think that his love for you is unconditional. I might feel like that, but there are most likely some things that would cause him to stop loving you.
> 
> For example what if you started cheating? How many affairs would it take before he lost his love for you? one? two? five? I don't know what that number is, but at some point that would probably kill his love for you.
> 
> ...


No, I don't think it will happen, either. 
@Anon Pink told me once that there is nothing I would realistically do that would make Dug stop loving me. I think she (as usual) put her finger on it.

I just cannot imagine Dug not loving me absolutely completely.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

jld said:


> No, I don't think it will happen, either.
> 
> @Anon Pink told me once that there is nothing I would realistically do that would make Dug stop loving me. I think she (as usual) put her finger on it.
> 
> I just cannot imagine Dug not loving me absolutely completely.



Yes, because his love for you isn't predicated on how you make him feel. He loves you. End of story. 

I don't think you would have ever let any man close to you again unless you felt that unconditional love from him. You're too hard on yourself to allow anyone else to beat you up!


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Most people don't even know what unconditional love is...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It doesn't have to be reciprocal. 

In fact, unconditional love is often not reciprocal. Parents are way more likely to love their children unconditionally than vice versa. 

And the norm in a marriage is for one person to love the other more with unconditional love being at the top end of the spectrum. 





jld said:


> Someone just told me it has to be reciprocal. I am not sure.
> 
> My husband loves me unconditionally. I do not think I love him unconditionally. He thinks I do, however. He says he can feel it.
> 
> I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him. I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> It doesn't have to be reciprocal.
> 
> In fact, unconditional love is often not reciprocal. Parents are way more likely to love their children unconditionally than vice versa.
> 
> And the norm in a marriage is for one person to love the other more with unconditional love being at the top end of the spectrum.


If I understand your post, I feel this also... non-attachment to the expectation that one will be loved back as a condition of loving. 

I have come to recognize a deeper understanding by keeping said expectations of love unconditioned so that acceptance has the opportunity to be transcended.

With conditions and rules, come limits...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't believe in unconditional love between adults. We all have limits. Maybe the closest thing is between parent and child and even with those I think have some limits.

I do think love very often is lopsided. That if you used a percentage system might look like 60-40 or whatever the difference might be.


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## Bibi1031 (Sep 14, 2015)

I loved my first X unconditionally. 14 years later, I still love him. I don't think a shut off valve exists, or an expiration date for that matter exists either, for that type of love. That doesn't mean I will ever be able to see him like the husband I had before he cheated and left me, but my love is still very intense. Hence why I can't be near him. Seeing him brings back too many painful emotions because I still care. I have come to accept that I will always love and care for this man that sadly couldn'teven come close to reciprocating the same feelings for me. 

I have no passionate love for him, but the deeper unconditional 
Part of my love will not die, no matter how hard I try. I moved on and fell in love again with second husband, but that love was most certainly conditional and I honestly feel nothing towards him. I can probably even be friends with second X, never with first though. 

I don't think unconditional love is healthy if that love is not reciprocated in some way. I wish mine was like his for me. He sure can be close to me and feel nothing. That would help me immensely as he would do anything the mother of his children needed. He is very generous that way. I'm the one that can't do it. 

My unconditional love for him sucks rocks indeed!


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> I don't believe in unconditional love between adults. We all have limits. Maybe the closest thing is between parent and child and even with those I think have some limits.
> 
> I do think love very often is lopsided. That if you used a percentage system might look like 60-40 or whatever the difference might be.


I think you are mostly right about romantic or marital love. I think there might be a very few exceptions. Ive never seen them, but heard of them, although they are not really healthy or happy at all. They are a form of tortured love.

on the other hand, general love, for persons is different. That can be unconditional. I can despise someone in the sense of disliking and still love them. For example, I despise someone. But for their betterment, I do something right for their sake in spite of my inclination, knowing it might be to my own detriment. Thats unconditional.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

The answer is no, what it does mean is that he more invested in this relationship then you do...which also means that he has a lot more to lose.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Someone just told me it has to be reciprocal. I am not sure.
> 
> My husband loves me unconditionally. I do not think I love him unconditionally. He thinks I do, however. He says he can feel it.
> 
> I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him. I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.


Unconditional love is unhealthy.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.


And what is important for the woman to do?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> And what is important for the woman to do?


Be transparent with him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Be transparent with him.


Man did you pull off the sweet deal. Trump has nothing on you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> What do you think of this, @Duguesclin?


I'd stick to Splenda in single serving packets..😎

You only love unconditionally those that can't comprehend the responsibility of being loved in this manner. Infants. Cats. Etc.


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## bhbrowning (Jun 7, 2017)

No


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## bhbrowning (Jun 7, 2017)

It is mutual 


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

jld said:


> My husband loves me unconditionally. I do not think I love him unconditionally. He thinks I do, however. He says he can feel it.
> 
> I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him.


He is very codependent on you. It's incredibly unhealthy. He doesn't know how to be happy. He sucks it from you like a parasite. Don't be responsible for his happiness because if you die first, he will never forgive you for such a selfish act. He must need binoculars to see you from the pedestal he has you on.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Betrayed,

I find that most unhappy folks are easily angered and that very even keeled folks tend to be above average happy. 




BetrayedDad said:


> He is very codependent on you. It's incredibly unhealthy. He doesn't know how to be happy. He sucks it from you like a parasite. Don't be responsible for his happiness because if you die first, he will never forgive you for such a selfish act. He must need binoculars to see you from the pedestal he has you on.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

If it had to be reciprocal then it wouldn't be unconditional.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

TBT,
This is the best answer.





TBT said:


> If it had to be reciprocal then it wouldn't be unconditional.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

jld said:


> Someone just told me it has to be reciprocal. I am not sure.
> 
> My husband loves me unconditionally. I do not think I love him unconditionally. He thinks I do, however. He says he can feel it.
> 
> I think he is much more pure and devoted to me than I am to him. I think that is really important in marriage, that the man be grounded and solid in his love and commitment to his wife and children. It is what has made my marriage as solid as it is, anyway.



Based on my 68 years of life experience, I think that unconditional love does not need to be reciprocal.

I learned a lot about unconditional love from my dog, when it was alive. I also learned a lot about unconditional love in raising my children. (They could turn out to be murderers or master criminals and I would still love them. Luckily I have raised them so that won't happen.) 

As to my wife of 46 years, I have almost divorced her a couple times, but I do love her and will always love her. Even if I divorced her, I would still cherish the good times we had together and the children we raised together. So even after divorce, I would hope that I still "loved" her.

I think you can love a spouse unconditionally as long as they don't hurt you emotionally over a long period of time. And that hurt has to be extreme and intentional.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I told my wife before I married her, before I even told her I would marry her, that my love for her was conditional. I had two conditions.

One was great sex on a steady basis. The other was if she ever hurt one of our children I would probably kill her.

One day we found ourselves on a boat with our son, with no life vests. My wife mentioned she hoped it didn't sink. I told her don't worry, I would save our son. I had a life saving certificate, and I knew I could do that. But she knew I wouldn't save her. She was okay with that. The boat didn't sink, of course.

She knows my love for her is conditional. I need her to love me. And I need her to love the children, and treat them right.

That's almost certainly why we have made it this long. Because even with all the stupid things we have gone through, those two tenets have been maintained.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> He is very codependent on you. It's incredibly unhealthy. He doesn't know how to be happy. He sucks it from you like a parasite. Don't be responsible for his happiness because if you die first, he will never forgive you for such a selfish act. He must need binoculars to see you from the pedestal he has you on.


Wow, even I don't think that. I think Dug just digs her, frankly I don't think jld could love a codependent man. She has no empathy for any man at all, she has very little understanding or even want to understand them. I mean a guy could come on here and say "my wife shot me" and jld would say, why weren't you strong enough to duck. :rofl: Nah but where dug is wrong is the day he shows any emotional weakness is the day jld will resent him, in my opinion. That is her one condition. Lucky for her he doesn't operate that way. I think he is pretty much content with her. Anyway that is how I see it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yep, he pretty much just loves me, end of story, as AP said.

Interesting comment, AP, that you said Dug's love for me is not dependent on how I make him feel. It does not seem dependent on me at all. It just seems to emanate very strongly from him.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Wow, even I don't think that. I think Dug just digs her, frankly I don't think jld could love a codependent man. She has no empathy for any man at all, she has very little understanding or even want to understand them. I mean a guy could come on here and say "my wife shot me" and jld would say, why weren't you strong enough to duck. :rofl: Nah but where dug is wrong is the day he shows any emotional weakness is the day jld will resent him, in my opinion. That is her one condition. Lucky for her he doesn't operate that way. I think he is pretty much content with her. Anyway that is how I see it.


Well my opinion is she's a very conflicted individual. On the one hand, not only do I think he has serious codependency issues but I also think jld get off on being for lack of a better term the center of his universe. I don't see this relationship as an equal partnership at all. She is clearly the queen of this castle and he's more than happy to take the scraps he is given like a good peasant. 

Which brings me to the other hand. Which is her desperate longing to have a KING by her side. I hate to use the cliché but an ALPHA man who's love doesn't come so easy and won't just "stand there during her emotional storms" and take nonsense. The best relationships are the ones were neither person will accept the others crap. It's called respect and "unconditional love" is doormattery of the worst kind. No one can respect a person like that. 

I leave you with a Tupac lyric (substitute the feminine pronouns for the male):

"She tells me that she needs me, cries when she leaves me,
And every time she sees me, she squeeze me, lady take it easy!
I hate to sound sleazy but tease me, I don't want it if it's that easy..."


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Yep, he pretty much just loves me, end of story, as AP said.
> 
> Interesting comment, AP, that you said Dug's love for me is not dependent on how I make him feel. It does not seem dependent on me at all. It just seems to emanate very strongly from him.


My love for my wife has never been dependent on what she does for me. That doesn't mean I would stay with her no matter what though. My marriage is dependent on things, but not my love. I very much love her. The reason why it is unconditional is because if she ever did anything to make that love or me unhealthy such as cheating, I would kill that love. I have done that before.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

BD,

There's just - one - small - flaw - in your analysis. 

Women don't consciously control their physical response to a partner. It just happens - or - as we so often hear on TAM, it stops happening. Women respond badly over time - to doormats. 

You know that saying: you can't fool Mother Nature 





BetrayedDad said:


> Well my opinion is she's a very conflicted individual. On the one hand, not only do I think he has serious codependency issues but I also think jld get off on being for lack of a better term the center of his universe. I don't see this relationship as an equal partnership at all. She is clearly the queen of this castle and he's more than happy to take the scraps he is given like a good peasant.
> 
> Which brings me to the other hand. Which is her desperate longing to have a KING by her side. I hate to use the cliché but an ALPHA man who's love doesn't come so easy and won't just "stand there during her emotional storms" and take nonsense. The best relationships are the ones were neither person will accept the others crap. It's called respect and "unconditional love" is doormattery of the worst kind. No one can respect a person like that.
> 
> ...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

/


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

It's BS. There isn't a human around that looks at another human the way a lab looks at his/her human. 

And even then, if you're a big enough *******, that lab will turn on you too.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

ugly the way you stated it was a little offensive to me. almost like your bragging that your husband loves you more than you love him. why would you even want to say such a thing?

its person specific. some people have such low self esteem that they would eat **** to stay married. 

me personally I have lots of conditions or deal breaker so to speak!


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> ugly the way you stated it was a little offensive to me. almost like your bragging that your husband loves you more than you love him. why would you even want to say such a thing?


I detected the hint of narcissism as well....



chillymorn69 said:


> some people have such low self esteem that they would eat **** to stay married.


QFT.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What if it's merely a statement of the truth?

Most folks are skeptical and/or cynical about transparency. 

I read this study on transparency. Really good stuff. The participants all committed to being fully transparent with each other for some time period - maybe a week or a month. Turns out that it is:
1. Really scary for the average person
2. People who are for lack of a better term - good - have a much easier time of it
3. Selfish or narcissistic folks discover that their partners don't respond well to their inner selves

If you can be highly transparent and still lovable - that is no small accomplishment.




chillymorn69 said:


> ugly the way you stated it was a little offensive to me. almost like your bragging that your husband loves you more than you love him. why would you even want to say such a thing?
> 
> its person specific. some people have such low self esteem that they would eat **** to stay married.
> 
> me personally I have lots of conditions or deal breaker so to speak!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Betrayed,
> 
> I find that most unhappy folks are easily angered and that very even keeled folks tend to be above average happy.
> 
> ...



Whoosh


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> What if it's merely a statement of the truth?
> 
> Most folks are skeptical and/or cynical about transparency.
> 
> ...



Then thats sad. can't think of wanting to be with someone who openly states my husband loves me more than I love him. in a bragging tone no less.
and this is pertinent ?

whats your point? are you saying if you say ugly things to your partner out of transparency then all should be ok?:scratchhead:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Chilly,
I may be wrong, however I genuinely don't read the tone of JLDs post as bragging. 

It is more a matter of describing the situation as it seems to her. 

I am however biased on this topic as I routinely share that I love M2 more than she loves me. I share that view here, and I also share it with M2. I don't see that as making me a lesser person. As to whether the cause is that I have a greater capacity to love or she is more lovable - I don't know. And am ok not knowing. 

There are plenty of times where M2 is 'in love' with me and clearly expresses that. But that isn't her 'steady state'. Where as it kind of is my steady state/default. 

I do however understand why this topic - can be viewed in a sort of competitive manner. M2 is sometimes like that. On occasion I gently observe: Babe, it feels like you are trying to 'win' the marriage. This confuses me, because you have already won - by being yourself. I put you first by default, so I'm not sure what outcome you are seeking. 




chillymorn69 said:


> Then thats sad. can't think of wanting to be with someone who openly states my husband loves me more than I love him. in a bragging tone no less.
> and this is pertinent ?
> 
> whats your point? are you saying if you say ugly things to your partner out of transparency then all should be ok?:scratchhead:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The pieces of this that matter to me are, does my partner:
1. Love me? YES
2. Respect me? YES
3. Trust me? (Mostly, M2 has trust issues - no one is perfect)
4. Like me? YES
5. Desire me physically? Yes

JLD has made it plenty clear over the years how she feels about Dug. 





chillymorn69 said:


> Then thats sad. can't think of wanting to be with someone who openly states my husband loves me more than I love him. in a bragging tone no less.
> and this is pertinent ?
> 
> whats your point? are you saying if you say ugly things to your partner out of transparency then all should be ok?:scratchhead:


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Chilly,
> I may be wrong, however I genuinely don't read the tone of JLDs post as bragging.
> 
> It is more a matter of describing the situation as it seems to her.
> ...


I guess everybody is wired different. I have trouble thinking about that type of dynamic.
In my mind love should be equal between husband and wife. Equal but different. If I thought there was a uneven level of love I would not want to be with that person. I am a fairness nut. I like everything to be fair. when there is a lack of fairness then I have trouble and have to try to correct the unfairness.


while I understand the world is very rarely fair I can handle it I know thats how the world is but In my re helm I always try for fairness. 

now with that said its not like I'm a tit for tat Nazi. sometime things go in their favor for a long and thats ok but I have to feel things in general are fair .


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

"Chilly,
I may be wrong, however I genuinely don't read the tone of JLDs post as bragging. 

It is more a matter of describing the situation as it seems to her. "


seems so foreign to me. the propensity to take advantage of a spouse that love more than you love back is great. I think its human nature to take advantage it might even be subliminal. lol subconscious.

and then pride gets in the way. I would rather be alone than with someone who isn't as vested in the relationship as I was. you know someone who has your back as much as i have their back.

maybe I'm just a crazy idiot. lol I don't really care about physio banker babble or what physiologist have to say about it. and I'm not faulting anybody who is ok with a love imbalance in their marriage. I just know I can't have it especially thrown in my face.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Chilly,
Now I understand why you see it that way. 

Usually I do a pairing, not in the spirit of fairness, but more in terms of full disclosure. I love M2 more, but she needs me more. 
It's why she's jealous and not super thrilled with me being close to anyone else. 

Fairness doesn't generally come into it - for me. If I was lookin for a 50-50 gig I'd have married someone else. 



chillymorn69 said:


> I guess everybody is wired different. I have trouble thinking about that type of dynamic.
> In my mind love should be equal between husband and wife. Equal but different. If I thought there was a uneven level of love I would not want to be with that person. I am a fairness nut. I like everything to be fair. when there is a lack of fairness then I have trouble and have to try to correct the unfairness.
> 
> 
> ...


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Whoosh


I'm actually pretty even keeled LeBron...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

This topic got me thinking. (No comments!) 

I think there is a difference between *unconditional love* (which I don't think is a good thing) and *unselfish love* which I think is what we should all strive to provide for our love ones if possible.

I would say I try to have unselfish love for my wife (probably not always successful) but I will never have unconditional love.

I think many people get these two mistaken.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Usually I do a pairing, not in the spirit of fairness, but more in terms of full disclosure. I love M2 more, but she needs me more.
> It's why she's jealous and not super thrilled with me being close to anyone else


That just sounds unhealthy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It's a phobia. So the question is, how well do we manage it. I try to help her not feel threatened. And she tries to remind herself that I am not going to deprioritize her in relation to other people. 

But to your point - it can be unhealthy. I'm sort of used to being careful - when people I'm close to (family members and such) are in the frame. By careful I mean that I make an effort to be reassuring. 

That said - the overwhelmingly positive tone in our one on one interactions is what drives the marriage. 






sokillme said:


> That just sounds unhealthy.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

What is love? 

Serious question. It means so many different things. How can you decide who loves more without being clear exactly what love is?


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## ericthesane (May 10, 2013)

What is love ?

Love is a verb... it is an action... it is what you do, and not do, say, or not say, that makes the object of your love feel loved.

Being 'in love' is a feeling.

Unconditional love between adults... humbug... there are always conditions. If someone mistreats you long enough, abuse you long enough, care nothing, does nothing, you will eventually leave, or do something, or say something that makes the object of your love feel unloved.

Those that argue the opposite has redefined what 'unconditional' is.


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