# Link says exactly how I feel



## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

5 Reasons Why Women Shouldn’t Deprive their Man of Sex - The Feminine Woman — Femininity - Dating & Relationship Advice for Women - The Feminine Woman

I have been married 26 years. I have never been as close as I am now to just leaving. 

The link above explains how important sex and intimacy is to me and I think a bunch of men.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It's the same for a bunch of women too.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

I am a woman, and I completely agree with everything in the article.

How long are you going to stay in an empty, sexless marriage? I stayed 20 years, far too long. Getting out was the best thing I ever did for myself, my kids and my ex.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> It's the same for a bunch of women too.



I realize that women can be rejected sexually by their husbands as well.

Do you agree with the part ...

"Women can go to their girlfriends, a counselor, a guy friend, a mother, father, relative, aunt, to connect and talk to people. Men don’t generally do this.

I’m not saying there aren’t men who DO call their guy friends up for a long chat about their feelings, problems and sex life, but this is not common.

Sex is one of the major and most important ways through which a man gets his needs of connection/love met."

I think because of this difference above (between men and women) many women don't fully realize how much they are hurting their husbands by rejecting them.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> OR don't care...
> 
> I think women have a mean streak... and also are somewhat self absorbed.
> 
> ...



Agreed, some women do have a mean streak, are self absorbed and don't care if their men are taken care of. So very true.

That's awesome. If us men withheld emotional closeness and talking, see how long that would last......same as withholding sex for us men........

I agree. The ladies do dress hot and sexy, to get a man, dating, lots of crazy sex, get married, sex tapers off to average at best and men wonder, what is going on here?!


Now to be totally fair, there are men who don't take care of their HD wifee's needs either, so it does go both ways.


Lets say, when the HD spouses are taking care of their other halves needs but their needs aren't being taken care of, problems occur..........


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> OR don't care...
> 
> I think women have a mean streak... and also are somewhat self absorbed.


Really? All women have a mean streak and are self absorbed? That's a pretty broad brush you are using.



Trying2figureitout said:


> A man would not think of witholding conversation form his wife for years like some/many women do sex.


This is not true at all. Many men without conversation, affection and just about everything from their wives for years. It's extremely common. And... men withhold sex from their wives at about the same rate as women do.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Its unbalanced and the sooner you realize its not a fair deck the better off you will be OP


What is not fair is that there are some men and some women who are mean and self centered. They tend to hurt others by ignoring the needs others have.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Just the way it is... women have sex to attract a mate..then done on average


This is a completely false statement.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Really? All women have a mean streak and are self absorbed? That's a pretty broad brush you are using.
> 
> 
> This is not true at all. Many men without conversation, affection and just about everything from their wives for years. It's extremely common. And... men withhold sex from their wives at about the same rate as women do.
> ...


I disagree... just look at the stories here

You can claim is equal it isn't...open your eyes

Men have ideal vision of marriage and what they put in they should get out.
Women check Facebook to see how others are doing

Who is at fault here?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> Agreed, some women do have a mean streak, are self absorbed and don't care if their men are taken care of. So very true.
> 
> That's awesome. If us men withheld emotional closeness and talking, see how long that would last......same as withholding sex for us men........
> 
> ...


Many men do not even try to meet their wives' emotional needs. After, these guy completely stop things like all forms of non-sexual intimacy (conversation, closeness, non-sexual touch, spending time with her.) 

:scratchhead:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ele,

T2 has a very obvious agenda which is this: claim that sexless marriages are the norm. He's just trying to make himself feel better since his er... Plan didn't work out to well. 




EleGirl said:


> Really? All women have a mean streak and are self absorbed? That's a pretty broad brush you are using.
> 
> 
> This is not true at all. Many men without conversation, affection and just about everything from their wives for years. It's extremely common. And... men withhold sex from their wives at about the same rate as women do.
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree... just look at the stories here
> 
> You can claim is equal it isn't...open your eyes


TAM is not an unbiased sample. More men post here then women. So of course there are more posts about issues from a man's perspective. 

Read the threads by women.... these are the things that are wrong in their marriages... their husband not filling their emotional needs and not giving a sh!t about it. Husband after husband refusing to have sex with their wife.

You need to open your eyes.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Ele,
> 
> T2 has a very obvious agenda which is this: claim that sexless marriages are the norm. He's just trying to make himself feel better since his er... Plan didn't work out to well.


They are common look up the statistics and thats those who fess up on surveys...its an epedemic


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> TAM is not an unbiased sample. More men post here then women. So of course there are more posts about issues from a man's perspective.
> 
> Read the threads by women.... these are the things that are wrong in their marriages... their husband not filling their emotional needs and not giving a sh!t about it. Husband after husband refusing to have sex with their wife.
> 
> You need to open your eyes.


Reason the women aren't here at TAM...they don't care like men do about sex/marriage/relationships

They are on Facebook or candy crush

It should be equal it isn't

The ones that are here are NOT representative of the average woman who is not here...

Quite the opposite for men we are the norm and married to those NOT on TAM


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Many men do not even try to meet their wives' emotional needs. After, these guy completely stop things like all forms of non-sexual intimacy (conversation, closeness, non-sexual touch, spending time with her.)
> 
> :scratchhead:



See, maybe I am not the norm., but I do try and meet my wifee's emotional needs, cuddling, making an effort to listen and not solve her problems, and spending time with her but also give her space when she needs it after work. Non of that increases her sex drive and taking care of my main need, physicality and sex. So I make that effort more than she does for me. HD taking care of the LD but the LD not taking care of the HD. Since I am Physical rating 12, non sexual only goes so far for me, a man. As a HD man, I need a sexual wifee, not another female friend.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I realize that women can be rejected sexually by their husbands as well.
> 
> Do you agree with the part ...
> 
> ...


For a woman, talking to friends and family does not substitute for a close, intimate relationship with her husband. A lot of men refuse to meet their wife's intimate needs. Then a good number of men (about 20%) also refuse to meet their wife's sexual needs.

The men here are often talk about their conversations with their friends in which they all complain about their marriage and their sex life. So apparently this is going on. 

Yes there are differences between the genders. But overall both genders have needs that are not being met at about the same rate.

It's wrong to try to say that you are more harmed by whatever your marital problems are then I am by the problems in mine. IT's even more wrong to assume that you are more harmed just because you are a man.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> For a woman, talking to friends and family does not substitute for a close, intimate relationship with her husband. A lot of men refuse to meet their wife's intimate needs. Then a good number of men (about 20%) also refuse to meet their wife's sexual needs.
> 
> The men here are often talk about their conversations with their friends in which they all complain about their marriage and their sex life. So apparently this is going on.
> 
> ...


Ah but the man is MORE harmed..as sex is tied to his being NOT optional for his well-being.

Women yes its TIED until childbirth then poof...well at least she does kill and eat him like spiders do. Rather a slow end to his life as her father of her kids

Read the stories they are all the same for the most part


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> See, maybe I am not the norm., but I do try and meet my wifee's emotional needs, cuddling, making an effort to listen and not solve her problems, and spending time with her but also give her space when she needs it after work.


Obviously some men do meet their wives needs for non-sexual intimacy. Some don’t. What % of husbands do not put effort into meeting these needs, I don’t know but it’s not unusual at all. The major complaint that women have in marriage is that their husbands do not meet their needs for non-sexual intimacy. 



CuddleBug said:


> Non of that increases her sex drive and taking care of my main need, physicality and sex.


This is on your wife. Sure there are women who do this. About 20% of marriages are sexless. Research has shown that men chose to make a marriage sexless and/or withhold sex as often as women do. 
Just because your wife is like this, do not paint all women as being like your wife. WE are not.


CuddleBug said:


> So I make that effort more than she does for me. HD taking care of the LD but the LD not taking care of the HD.


LD apparently always is the gatekeeper of sex in a marriage. That holds if the LD person is the husband or the wife. Since men withhold sex as often as women do… this is not just a female problem.


CuddleBug said:


> Since I am Physical rating 12, non sexual only goes so far for me, a man. As a HD man, I need a sexual wifee, not another female friend.


Again the same goes for women… a HD woman needs a sexual husband, not another male friend.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The biggest reason not mentioned in the 5 in the article is that sex smooths out imperfections we see in our spouses. After sex fog would be a better explanation.

Once the fog is gone after (infrequent) sex, regardless of quality, the partner's flaws are still out there and resentment / anger / strategy dictates that they be exploited to their fullest. That's hardly conducive to a healthy relationship.

What T2 is trying to say I suppose is that women have more power in this aspect than men and wield that power more than men. Is it true? I won't say but let's just say that the list of stories in TAM suggests LD men are not portrayed in quite the numbers that LD women are (in TAM). 

Another issue not listed is that a long term emotionless relationship is not conducive to long term planning. I'll be frank to say that at this point I really don't care about sex - only to the tune that my relationship has far bigger issues to resolve - which ain't happening any time soon - so the exit strategy will need to come into play most likely.

At that point all bets are off regarding future planning, and that's the killer right there. Without being able to project forward the term 'long term relationship' becomes a farce. So...


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Obviously some men do meet their wives needs for non-sexual intimacy. Some don’t. What % of husbands do not put effort into meeting these needs, I don’t know but it’s not unusual at all. The major complaint that women have in marriage is that their husbands do not meet their needs for non-sexual intimacy.
> 
> 
> This is on your wife. Sure there are women who do this. About 20% of marriages are sexless. Research has shown that men chose to make a marriage sexless and/or withhold sex as often as women do.
> ...


and in YOUR world its all equal right?

"I have a headache tonight" is not attributed to the male of the human species.

EleGirl admit its unbalanced. See the truth.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Ah but the man is MORE harmed..as sex is tied to his being NOT optional for his well-being.


Again you are wrong. Sex is tied to a healthy woman’s wellbeing, it’s not optional either.


Trying2figureitout said:


> Women yes its TIED until childbirth then poof...well at least she does kill and eat him like spiders do. Rather a slow end to his life as her father of her kids


No sex drive does not go poof for all women after child birth. It does for some but not all. Some men also lose desire for their wife with her pregnancy and it never returns. All women are not like your wife. 


Trying2figureitout said:


> Read the stories they are all the same for the most part


And read the posts by women here… a very large percentage are about husbands who will not have sex. Generally the husbands are also no meeting most if not all of the other need of the wife’s.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Again you are wrong. Sex is tied to a healthy woman’s wellbeing, it’s not optional either.
> 
> No sex drive does not go poof for all women after child birth. It does for some but not all. Some men also lose desire for their wife with her pregnancy and it never returns. All women are not like your wife.
> 
> And read the posts by women here… a very large percentage are about husbands who will not have sex. Generally the husbands are also no meeting most if not all of the other need of the wife’s.


Men need sex every several days

Wives need a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t.u.v.w.x.y.z.sex

Unbalanced


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> and in YOUR world its all equal right?


In the real world, there are about equal numbers of men and women who withhold sex from their spouses. 



Trying2figureitout said:


> "I have a headache tonight" is not attributed to the male of the human species.


There are all kinds of stereo types that are jokes but do not reflect what all people of a group do... not even what the majority of them do.



Trying2figureitout said:


> EleGirl admit its unbalanced. See the truth.


I know the truth. I've lived it. I've known many many women live it. I've read studies about it. Men withhold sex at about the same rate as women do. 

But, since men are not going to come here and say that they withhold sex, they are not going to tell their male friends what they are doing... we just don't hear about it from men.

We hear about men withhold sex from the women who have this going on in their marriage. In real life most women will never tell anyone that their husband refuses to have sex with them. After all men are supposed to be horn dogs so the women are afraid that they will be seen as lesser women when their husbands do this.

Instead with men, complaining about their sex life is apparently a huge topic of discussion... sort of a male bonding thing if TAM is any kind of an indication.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Men need sex every several days


Most women need sex every few/several days as well. A woman who has a very active sex life is healthier due to the sex life because there are things that go on in sex that are extremely good for the female body and mind.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Wives need a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n,o,p,q,r,s,t.u.v.w.x.y.z.sex
> 
> Unbalanced


You are so clueless.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> The biggest reason not mentioned in the 5 in the article is that sex smooths out imperfections we see in our spouses. After sex fog would be a better explanation.
> 
> Once the fog is gone after (infrequent) sex, regardless of quality, the partner's flaws are still out there and resentment / anger / strategy dictates that they be exploited to their fullest. That's hardly conducive to a healthy relationship.


Sex works this way for men and women. The largest amounts of Oxytocin and other bonding hormones are released during sex for both men and women. The release is actually higher in women. So technically woman bond more and get more in a fog after sex then men do.


john117 said:


> What T2 is trying to say I suppose is that women have more power in this aspect than men and wield that power more than men. Is it true? I won't say but let's just say that the list of stories in TAM suggests LD men are not portrayed in quite the numbers that LD women are (in TAM).


Please clarify what you mean when you says that women have more power in this aspect. It’s not clear.

More men post their stories and seek support on TAM then women do. So of course there are more stories about the problems men see in their marriage. 


john117 said:


> Another issue not listed is that a long term emotionless relationship is not conducive to long term planning. I'll be frank to say that at this point I really don't care about sex - only to the tune that my relationship has far bigger issues to resolve - which ain't happening any time soon - so the exit strategy will need to come into play most likely.
> 
> At that point all bets are off regarding future planning, and that's the killer right there. Without being able to project forward the term 'long term relationship' becomes a farce. So...


This is usually what happens to both men and women. They give up at some point. Sex goes out the window because the problems are in the very foundation of the marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Actually they are not 50-50. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10022110/

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197807202990302

Etc etc.

For extra credit, a lot of men are counted because of physiological problems that are or are not treated or treatable (i.e. ED) while the same can't be said of FSD (i.e. treated or treatable).


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I think you are wrong ele girl. 

A large percentage of men state that sex and physical intimacy is their most important need. A large percentage of women state that their most important is emotional intimacy. 

I have no doubt that men and women both don't meet their spouses needs. I am sure that this is probably very equal.

To say that men withhold sex as much as women is wrong. Why would men withhold what is most important to them? 

I am sure it happens and I think your opinion is skewed because it happened to you. But the percentages are no where close.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T2,
Sincere question. What's your plan?

You're obviously unhappy. What's your exit strategy? 




Trying2figureitout said:


> They are common look up the statistics and thats those who fess up on surveys...its an epedemic


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> T2,
> Sincere question. What's your plan?
> 
> You're obviously unhappy. What's your exit strategy?


Am I unhappy how do you determine that?

I am just speaking the truth. Tired of seeing the same advice of the man needs to change.
Totally the opposite its the woman who needs to change.

Nothing the man can do.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sad,
When you are really ready to leave your loveless marriage PM me, and I'll help you. 

I know that you love her. I'm referring to her feelings for you. 

You will have many good options for companionship when you post bond and depart the emotional 'labor camp' you're in. 






SadSamIAm said:


> I think you are wrong ele girl.
> 
> A large percentage of men state that sex and physical intimacy is their most important need. A large percentage of women state that their most important is emotional intimacy.
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> Actually they are not 50-50.
> 
> Sexual dysfunction in the United States - PubMed Mobile
> 
> ...



"RESULTS: Sexual dysfunction is more prevalent for women (43%) than men (31%) and is associated with various demographic characteristics, including age and educational attainment. Women of different racial groups demonstrate different patterns of sexual dysfunction. Differences among men are not as marked but generally consistent with women. Experience of sexual dysfunction is more likely among women and men with poor physical and emotional health. Moreover, sexual dysfunction is highly associated with negative experiences in sexual relationships and overall well-being. "

From those numbers the difference between men and women is about 12%. That's a lot close then is being portrayed here by the men.

And on top of that, not all spouses who withhold sex are doing it based on "sexual dysfunction". There are also people who withhold sex out of anger and a lot of other reasons. But they have no sexual dysfunction going on. When this is brought into the picture the numbers get closer together with men/women.

Why Men Stop Having Sex: Men, the Phenomenon of Sexless Relationships, and What You Can Do About It: Bob Berkowitz, Susan Yager-Berkowitz: 9780061192043: Amazon.com: Books


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> "RESULTS: Sexual dysfunction is more prevalent for women (43%) than men (31%) and is associated with various demographic characteristics, including age and educational attainment. Women of different racial groups demonstrate different patterns of sexual dysfunction. Differences among men are not as marked but generally consistent with women. Experience of sexual dysfunction is more likely among women and men with poor physical and emotional health. Moreover, sexual dysfunction is highly associated with negative experiences in sexual relationships and overall well-being. "
> 
> From those numbers the difference between men and women is about 12%. That's a lot close then is being portrayed here by the men.
> 
> ...


So now its 12 % that's a difference...newsflash

Hence THIS forum


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A lot closer? 

31% vs 43% is 38% different... Look at the incident ratio. 

Other papers and studies are higher still.

And remember what I said about ED and physiological reasons ie can't do it vs FSD and won't do it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Am I unhappy how do you determine that?
> 
> I am just speaking the truth. Tired of seeing the same advice of the man needs to change.
> Totally the opposite its the woman who needs to change.
> ...



Are you really saying that there are not men who need to make changes because they are causing problems in their marriage?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> So now its 12 % that's a difference...newsflash
> 
> Hence THIS forum


Of course you ignored the bit about withholding sex because of anger. 

You ignored that link I posted.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> A lot closer?
> 
> 31% vs 43% is 38% different... Look at the incident ratio.
> 
> ...


You ignored the link I posted. The links you posted address what are mostly physical reasons for LD. LD is not the only reason that people w/h sex in marriage. with men w/h sex is very often a passive aggressive tool they use to punish their wife due their own unresolved anger issues.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Are you really saying that there are not men who need to make changes because they are causing problems in their marriage?


Absolutely not some men do cause many problems...some

My premise is more women withhold sex in long term marriages and seems to be born out by actual facts and casual observation and yes sterotypes

So you treat the source


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Of course you ignored the bit about withholding sex because of anger.
> 
> You ignored that link I posted.


I am guessing both genders would withhold sex because of anger.

And since sex is typically more important to men than women, it would make more sense that men would chose to withhold something other than sex.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Obviously some men do meet their wives needs for non-sexual intimacy. Some don’t. What % of husbands do not put effort into meeting these needs, I don’t know but it’s not unusual at all. The major complaint that women have in marriage is that their husbands do not meet their needs for non-sexual intimacy.
> 
> 
> This is on your wife. Sure there are women who do this. About 20% of marriages are sexless. Research has shown that men chose to make a marriage sexless and/or withhold sex as often as women do.
> ...



I like those points and well said. 

Maybe you and I should get together sometime.....we are both HD adventurous and would rock the house.

Some ladies are HD and their men are actually LD, due to feeling inadequate (wifee hot and there are not), or porn or a co-worker affair and in some cases it is low-T.

I would say, more men than ladies are the HD ones, and we do everything short of jumping through hoops to get our LD ladies in the mood, with little to no success and stereotypes are born. Men have testicles that produce testosterone, women do not. Men do have higher test levels and sex drives and most women do not. Men need sex for our healthy, sanity and longevity, were as not so much for the ladies. Women don't need sex like us men do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Absolutely not some men do cause many problems...some


Yep, and men are equally at fault for causing problems in marriage. 



Trying2figureitout said:


> My premise is more women withhold sex in long term marriages and seems to be born out by actual facts and casual observation and yes sterotypes


You again ignored the link I provided. In marriage, men withhold sex at about the same rate as women do. That is born out by studies.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> I like those points and well said.
> 
> Maybe you and I should get together sometime.....we are both HD adventurous and would rock the house.


LOL... not sure your wife would be wild about that idea.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Absolutely not some men do cause many problems...some
> 
> My premise is more women withhold sex in long term marriages and seems to be born out by actual facts and casual observation and yes sterotypes
> 
> So you treat the source



Agreed.

I wish those ladies on TAM with the HD's were the norm, I really do.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Sad,
> When you are really ready to leave your loveless marriage PM me, and I'll help you.
> 
> I know that you love her. I'm referring to her feelings for you.
> ...


Thanks Mem. I may take you up on that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am guessing both genders would withhold sex because of anger.
> 
> And since sex is typically more important to men than women, it would make more sense that men would chose to withhold something other than sex.


It's not my personal observation that men and women withhold sex at about equal rates. That data comes from studies that have been done.

For most men and most women, sex is very important.. it's extremely important to both sexes. 

While you might think that men would w/h something else the fact is that men w/h sex at about the same rate as women do.

My guess is that men who w/h sex out of anger/punishment do it because they have other outlets for sex. For example most men these days use porn. There is so much porn available that why would a man who is angry or has bad feelings for his wife want to have sex with her when there are thousands of porn sites, live sex rooms, etc all waiting to meet his needs with him not having to do anything in return.

Then there are prostitutes, call girls, massage parlors.. all catering to men getting their needs met by someone other than their wives.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> LOL... not sure your wife would be wild about that idea.



What she doesn't know.......

Or maybe we can share.:smthumbup:

And sensual foot massages......


I think the man or woman who discovers a supplement that raises not only a man's sex drive but a woman's sex drive, will be a very rich person indeed and never forgotten in time. Woman takes this supplement and wants sex 2 - 4x day.......:smthumbup:


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Yep, and men are equally at fault for causing problems in marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> You again ignored the link I provided. In marriage, men withhold sex at about the same rate as women do. That is born out by studies.


Post a link to these studies please. 

I have tried to find something myself. Just tons of articles about men getting rejected. Also some about women getting rejected. I am thinking probably in the same ratios as it actually happens. Just google 'spouse being rejected sexually'.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> It's not my personal observation that men and women withhold sex at about equal rates. That data comes from studies that have been done.
> 
> For most men and most women, sex is very important.. it's extremely important to both sexes.
> 
> ...


Whole INDUSTRIES to satiate the male sex drive...you are burying yourself with the facts that prove the unequal that exists

..and NONE of it is the same as with the woman you love and married...ask most husbands


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Post a link to these studies please.
> 
> I have tried to find something myself. Just tons of articles about men getting rejected. Also some about women getting rejected. I am thinking probably in the same ratios as it actually happens. Just google 'spouse being rejected sexually'.


I posted a link in an above post to a book that lists some studies.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

sensual foot massages..........


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> I posted a link in an above post to a book that lists some studies.


I did click on your link and saw it was only a book. 

So you must have the book. Why not type out the titles of these studies for us to google?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

I read some of the book reviews. Seems like most of the 'evidence' is from people who sought out the authors. I am guessing that would be from women who are getting rejected. 

Here is a quote from a review of the book, "A self-reporting survey is not research but simply the compilation of anecdotes even if the "researcher" directs the questions. No attempt is made to solicit from people who did not seek out the authors, so their "scientific method" is suspect. The authors do pay slight acknowledgement to that fact when they say sometimes the data is from those who were self-motivated to seek out the authors."


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Whole INDUSTRIES to satiate the male sex drive...you are burying yourself with the facts that prove the unequal that exists


They are facts that show that men do not need to rely only on their wives for sexual satisfaction. They can withhold sex from their wife but still have a lot of sex in their lives.



Trying2figureitout said:


> ..and NONE of it is the same as with the woman you love and married...ask most husbands


apparently about 20% of men are just find with getting little to no sex from their wives. That does not even count the numbers who withhold it often but have sex more than 10 times a year with their wives.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I read some of the book reviews. Seems like most of the 'evidence' is from people who sought out the authors. I am guessing that would be from women who are getting rejected.


Just about every study of human sexuality is based on self reporting. How else do the people doing the study get the information?

All of the stories here on TAM are self reporting. 

The subjects were not mostly people who sought them out.



SadSamIAm said:


> I am guessing that would be from women who are getting rejected.


What are you saying in this sentence? Are the situations of women who are reject sexually by their husband not as valid as those of men whose wives reject them?



SadSamIAm said:


> Here is a quote from a review of the book, "A self-reporting survey is not research but simply the compilation of anecdotes even if the "researcher" directs the questions. No attempt is made to solicit from people who did not seek out the authors, so their "scientific method" is suspect. The authors do pay slight acknowledgement to that fact when they say sometimes the data is from those who were self-motivated to seek out the authors."


Some times and but not all the time. This is true of most studies of this type. They don't go out on the street and just drag people in and force them to participate in a study.

ETA: About half of the participants in the study were men who self reported to be withholding sex.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

It's 12/25 am here. I need to get some sleep. There is always manana.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> OR don't care...
> 
> I think women have a mean streak... and also are somewhat self absorbed.
> 
> ...


 I do have a man who withholds conversation from me. It has gotten better. But he deals with disagreements, disappointments, and sad feeling... by completely ignoring everyone and every thing around him.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

I am a woman. I feel like many of the men here.

I have a very high drive. I want it every day, sometimes more than once. He is not so interested. 

When I initiate I am rejected frequently.

I stopped initiating for about 6 months to see what would happen. We had sex about 2 to 3 times a month. I supplemented A LOT with solo sex. If I wanted to cheat I could very easily. 

I think we are both part of this problem and we are still trying to figure it all out. It has gotten better only because I have made changes in my expectations and quit hounding him so much. 

As someone said earlier in the thread, the LD is the gatekeeper of frequency.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> They are facts that show that men do not need to rely only on their wives for sexual satisfaction. They can withhold sex from their wife but still have a lot of sex in their lives.
> 
> 
> 
> apparently about 20% of men are just find with getting little to no sex from their wives. That does not even count the numbers who withhold it often but have sex more than 10 times a year with their wives.


EleGirl you have goggles on...

Men are happy when sharing sex with their wives as long as their wives are into it..that is ideal.

All the stuff you talk about is BECAUSE men's sex is NOT satiated by their own wives or girlfriends as a whole. I'll bet some of the men you speak of withholding do so in anger because their own wives never gave him a decent sex life to begin with.

Wake up to the facts


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

where_are_we said:


> I do have a man who withholds conversation from me. It has gotten better. But he deals with disagreements, disappointments, and sad feeling... by completely ignoring everyone and every thing around him.


Has he completely stopped talking like wives who refuse any sex for months or years? I mean complete silence.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

where_are_we said:


> I do have a man who withholds conversation from me. It has gotten better. But he deals with disagreements, disappointments, and sad feeling... by completely ignoring everyone and every thing around him.



Yet the "marriage" goes on...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Has he completely stopped talking like wives who refuse any sex for months or years? I mean complete silence.



If you're living under the same roof complete silence is impossible but cold fish roommate level interaction, yes. 

Both can play the game. It ain't good, and ultimately makes the inevitable split easier, but I'll be damned if I chit chat about the weather and the Cubs with a roommate.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

You know who is at fault? The two people in the relationship. No matter how you slice it,when there are problems BOTH people are responsible for fixing those problems. 

If your wife is more interested in candy crush than you...why are you putting up with it? If your wife doesn't want sex...why are you putting up with it? By accepting this standard you are letting her know it's ok to slack off. 

Just today I had to have a discussion with my husband about needing a greater share of lusty moments to balance out our friendship moments. I'm not willing to accept falling into a rut so I'm vigilant about communicating when I feel we're slipping. He'll do his part and I'll do mine. BOTH people are responsible for making the marriage sexy.

Women refusing sex is foreign to me bc that's not how I do things.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> You know who is at fault? The two people in the relationship. No matter how you slice it,when there are problems BOTH people are responsible for fixing those problems.
> 
> If your wife is more interested in candy crush than you...why are you putting up with it? If your wife doesn't want sex...why are you putting up with it? By accepting this standard you are letting her know it's ok to slack off.
> 
> ...


Exactly you actually care you do something most women don't that is why there are not as many women here... they don't read books or go to the doctor or check websites. What they do is what is best for them as an individual to make them feel happy and fulfilled that is easy to do when they have a good man picking up the slack.

Women here at TAM are not typical at all.
Men at TAM are typical

As for the not letting your wife slack off comment...

Shouldn't have to do anything shes and adult and can decide for herself what to do and besides sex coerced sucks

Thats the slippery slope all marriages have... does your wife really like sex with you INHERENTLY....that answer is very nebulous in most marriages.

Falls into three categories...

1 Wives authentically into sex with their husband and seek it out with him HD

2 Wives going through the motions and providing sex to keep the peace LD
3 Wives witholding LD

I'll let you figure out the percentages there


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Exactly you actually care yo do something most women don't that is why there are not as many women here... they don't read books or go to the doctor or check websites. What they do is what is best for them as an individual to make them fell happy and fulfilled that is easy to do when they have a good man picking up the slack.
> 
> Women her at TAM are not typical at all.
> Men at TAM are typical


Why do men pick women who are selfish like this? Why do men put up with this? The ladies of tam can't be the only ladies who care about the happiness of their husbands. Why does the good man continue picking up the slack? Wouldn't it be better to be alone and take your chances with the rest of the world than to put up with that forever?


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> You know who is at fault? The two people in the relationship. No matter how you slice it,when there are problems BOTH people are responsible for fixing those problems.
> 
> If your wife is more interested in candy crush than you...why are you putting up with it? If your wife doesn't want sex...why are you putting up with it? By accepting this standard you are letting her know it's ok to slack off.


"I wish we had sex more, I miss sharing that intimacy with you."
"You're right, we need to work on it."

(second person doesn't work on it. Repeat conversation until first person either consigns themselves to a life of sexless misery, or goes to find someone who will meet their needs by cheating or ending the relationship)



> Women refusing sex is foreign to me bc that's not how I do things.


That's really fortunate. In my darkest hours with my ex, I would see or read anything about women wanting sex or being frustrated by it and would laugh to myself, because the idea of a woman being aroused and wanting it _actually felt that alien_ at that point.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> As for the not letting your wife slack off comment...
> 
> Shouldn't have to do anything shes and adult and besides sex coerced sucks


If she has a truly good man and she's treating him poorly then she really isn't behaving like a mature adult. So that's why you have to put your foot down. Coerced sex does suck,I agree. But I'm not talking about coercing her into sex...I'm talking about making her see you are her equal by your actions and calling her out every single time she treats you as anything less.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

testpilot21 said:


> "I wish we had sex more, I miss sharing that intimacy with you."
> "You're right, we need to work on it."
> 
> (second person doesn't work on it. Repeat conversation until first person either consigns themselves to a life of sexless misery, or goes to find someone who will meet their needs by cheating or ending the relationship)
> ...


Why doesn't the second person work on it? 
-because they don't feel like they should have to
-because they don't feel their partner will do anything drastic if they don't
-because they feel entitled to keep behaving the way they do
-because they aren't really in love with you in the first place

So why consign yourself to being sexless and unloved? Lay it out there from the start and keep laying it out there so your needs and her needs stay at the front of the line. If she can't meet your needs but you're truly meeting hers then she doesn't give a damn about you. Why stick around for that?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do men pick women who are selfish like this? Why do men put up with this? The ladies of tam can't be the only ladies who care about the happiness of their husbands. Why does the good man continue picking up the slack? Wouldn't it be better to be alone and take your chances with the rest of the world than to put up with that forever?


Again I think if you really look at the way the world works the ladies at TAM are exceptions and not representative of the average wife.

I will answer why I put up with it...

Sex is not everything obviously, I like my wife and my kids. In a way its seeing if things will change as she promised over the years. I see all women in a certain light now... understanding their mental makeup much better.

Divorce sucks AND NOT THAT impressed with other women out there. Grass is not greener and it would be the same cycle most likely over time.

Part of it is gaining control over your own weaknesses without regard to your spouse because of the situation they put on you.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> So why consign yourself to being sexless and unloved? Lay it out there from the start and keep laying it out there so your needs and her needs stay at the front of the line. If she can't meet your needs but you're truly meeting hers then she doesn't give a damn about you. Why stick around for that?


That's what brought me to this forum in the first place. I finally made the decision to not stick around.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Again I think if you really look at the way the world works the ladies at TAM are exceptions and not representative of the average wife.
> 
> I will answer why I put up with it...
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying here. Doesn't the treatment you receive about sex bleed into other areas of life though? It seems like they'd be connected. Or maybe I'm just thinking about it this way bc my marriage is this way. If DH and I don't get to have that sexual closeness it feels like our whole life is a little off...we aren't as smiley,we aren't as relaxed and we aren't as sweet to each other. Sexual closeness doesn't even have to be intercourse.

Divorce DOES suck,I agree with that!


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

If my husband didn't meet my emotional and physical needs what would be the point in sticking around? The grass might not be greener but I'd rather be alone than put up with giving and never receiving. 

I left my ex bc of that crap. Maybe that's why I'm so hellbent against going through that loop again.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I understand what you're saying here. Doesn't the treatment you receive about sex bleed into other areas of life though? It seems like they'd be connected. Or maybe I'm just thinking about it this way bc my marriage is this way. If DH and I don't get to have that sexual closeness it feels like our whole life is a little off...we aren't as smiley,we aren't as relaxed and we aren't as sweet to each other. Sexual closeness doesn't even have to be intercourse.
> 
> Divorce DOES suck,I agree with that!


For me personally since I have been dealing with this it really no longer affects me.... 

See here's the deal... last time my wife and I had "sex" was several months ago... started off good was getting her to O then she just goes limp.... I continue and her comment was "I was done 10 minutes ago" this was 18 minutes into it.

That was after over a year without.

Not worth it to keep trying and get comments like that during sex. its been YEARS since I had good satisfying sex with her. So I accept what is.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

where_are_we said:


> I do have a man who withholds conversation from me. It has gotten better. But he deals with disagreements, disappointments, and sad feeling... by completely ignoring everyone and every thing around him.


I am a man and I am not good with conversation. It doesn't come naturally to me. But I try. 

The times we have the best communication is when we have been intimate. Many times, before sex when cuddling and spending alone time. Sometimes after sex, when we are recharging for a second go around. Sometimes the next couple of days following sex when I am in a good mood and feeling close.

When communication is rare it is after a few days without sex. After a few times of being rejected. 

This has been going on for years. If she really wanted more communication, she knows exactly how to achieve that. 

Many times when communicating, it is obvious to me that she is 'picking a fight' in order to not get too close because then I might expect sex.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> For me personally since I have been dealing with this it really no longer affects me....
> 
> See here's the deal... last time my wife and I had "sex" was several months ago... started off good was getting her to O then she just goes limp.... I continue and her comment was "I was done 10 minutes ago" this was 18 minutes into it.
> 
> ...


What does she mean she was done 10 mins ago? As in she had already had an orgasm? 

Maybe try to hold off on making her O? Unless of course you've already tried that. A lot of women lose interest after they've had that first orgasm.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> ETA: About half of the participants in the study were men who self reported to be withholding sex.


Not surprising when that is their target audience. Wasn't like they asked a number of random men to get a representative sample.

You are wrong about how studies work. If you do a study and want statistically accurate results, you need a random sample.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> You know who is at fault? The two people in the relationship. No matter how you slice it,when there are problems BOTH people are responsible for fixing those problems.
> 
> If your wife is more interested in candy crush than you...why are you putting up with it? If your wife doesn't want sex...why are you putting up with it? By accepting this standard you are letting her know it's ok to slack off.
> 
> ...


Your husband is a lucky man.


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## Jetranger (May 31, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> The times we have the best communication is when we have been intimate. Many times, before sex when cuddling and spending alone time. Sometimes after sex, when we are recharging for a second go around. Sometimes the next couple of days following sex when I am in a good mood and feeling close.


I believe that the best conversations take place in bed. Whether you're two kids having a sleepover, two close friends sprawled out or two lovers pre or post sex, something about the situation seems conducive having deep and intimate conversations.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> Why do men pick women who are selfish like this?


In my case, it was because she wasn't like this for the first few years.




> Why do men put up with this?


Because we believe in marriage. We have children that need us. And in my case, once or twice a month, we have wonderful moments together.



> The ladies of tam can't be the only ladies who care about the happiness of their husbands. Why does the good man continue picking up the slack?


In hopes for the crumbs our wives sometimes feed us.



> Wouldn't it be better to be alone and take your chances with the rest of the world than to put up with that forever?


Feels like it, but it is a huge step. Grass isn't always greener. Like I said earlier, I have never been as close as I am right now to just leave.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> What does she mean she was done 10 mins ago? As in she had already had an orgasm?
> 
> Maybe try to hold off on making her O? Unless of course you've already tried that. A lot of women lose interest after they've had that first orgasm.


i don't thinks she O'd she seemed to enjoy (it) for the first 8 minutes then as I tried to get her to O she was done...leaving me hanging.

So what does one do with that... get all worked up to have "sex" then that's what you get? Not worth it.
Its like there is no concern for my own pleasure at all when it comes to sex.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Not surprising when that is their target audience. Wasn't like they asked a number of random men to get a representative sample.
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong about how studies work. If you do a study and want statistically accurate results, you need a random sample.



That's the difference between getting published in pop psych magazines versus peer reviewed journals...

Having published a few articles in peer reviewed journals I can tell you methodology is one of the first things the reviewers go after.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> i don't thinks she O'd she seemed to enjoy (it) for the first 8 minutes then as I tried to get her to O she was done...leaving me hanging.
> 
> So what does one do with that... get all worked up to have "sex" then that's what you get? Not worth it.
> Its like there is no concern for my own pleasure at all when it comes to sex.


That's so bizarre. So does she just want you to get off and not worry about her O?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> That's so bizarre. So does she just want you to get off and not worry about her O?


I have no idea. I'm sure its this way for many men in sexless marriages.... it takes two to make sex work.

If its just one working at it then do it yourself.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> In my case, it was because she wasn't like this for the first few years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A lot of people believe in marriage and trying their best to work it out and make the best of a bad situation. But at some point it becomes an act of insanity to stick around hoping for crumbs from your wife. She probably feels that you live for those crumbs and has no respect for you because of it.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> 5 Reasons Why Women Shouldn’t Deprive their Man of Sex - The Feminine Woman — Femininity - Dating & Relationship Advice for Women - The Feminine Woman
> 
> I have been married 26 years. I have never been as close as I am now to just leaving.
> 
> The link above explains how important sex and intimacy is to me and I think a bunch of men.


Aren't you the same Sam who complained all the way back in usenet days of this same issue. That was decades ago. What ever happened with the pharmacist?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Usenet... Wow. 

Remember how you could tell if the economy was growing back then? 

Look at number of articles in misc.jobs.offered versus rec.sex I think. If there were more jobs posts than sex posts the economy was growing


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

testpilot21 said:


> I believe that the best conversations take place in bed. Whether you're two kids having a sleepover, two close friends sprawled out or two lovers pre or post sex, something about the situation seems conducive having deep and intimate conversations.


I agree and she knows this. So if she really wants more communication and I want more love making, then it should really be quite simple.

I think the issue is she is using the communication problem as an excuse to not have sex with me. Which is verified by the times that I have put a great deal of effort into communication with her, that didn't result in more sex.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> I think the issue is she is using the communication problem as an excuse to not have sex with me. Which is verified by the times that I have put a great deal of effort into communication with her, that didn't result in more sex.


because she knows you were just doing it to get more sex lol


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I have no idea. I'm sure its this way for many men in sexless marriages.... it takes two to make sex work.
> 
> If its just one working at it then do it yourself.


This isn't the case for me. 

The odd times we do have sex, she gets into it and we typically go to completion for both me and her. Often she doesn't O during intercourse alone. Usually her O is from oral. Sometimes from intercourse along with a toy.

We both feel close afterwards and all is good for a day or two. Then she gets cold again and the problems start (rejection, resentment, etc.)


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> Aren't you the same Sam who complained all the way back in usenet days of this same issue. That was decades ago. What ever happened with the pharmacist?


Don't think I am the same Sam! Never had a pharmacist involved in anything with us. 

Been complaining about this same issue for years though.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Has he completely stopped talking like wives who refuse any sex for months or years? I mean complete silence.


Yep. He did this for an entire year. He would only nod or grunt a yes or no in answer to questions...with much prompting. Otherwise, yes, complete silence.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

I've been coming across a few posts like I just saw in this thread where if one partner gets an orgasm, the other thinks that the sex activities should stop. It's one thing where the person just getting the O decides the sex is done (heinous as that is), but why in the world would the person who didn't get their O stop having sex when his/her partner gave zero inclination that they were stopping?

If my wife got what she wanted out of sex, but I didn't get my O yet, I'd keep going until I get mine. If I get my O and my wife didn't, I'd make sure she gets hers too. WTF is wrong with people????


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I've been coming across a few posts like I just saw in this thread where if one partner gets an orgasm, the other thinks that the sex activities should stop. It's one thing where the person just getting the O decides the sex is done (heinous as that is), but why in the world would the person who didn't get their O stop having sex when his/her partner gave zero inclination that they were stopping?
> 
> If my wife got what she wanted out of sex, but I didn't get my O yet, I'd keep going until I get mine. If I get my O and my wife didn't, I'd make sure she gets hers too. WTF is wrong with people????


I don't understand this either. 

My wife may not initiate sex and rejects me all the time, but when it happens, she isn't that thoughtless.

A typical romp for us would be:

1) Me massaging her back
2) Me moving from massaging to caressing more intimate areas (butt, breasts, inner thigh, etc.)
3) Her showing signs of arrousal
4) Me touching more, maybe oral on her, with her resulting in 'O'
5) Then intercourse until completion. I have sometimes said I don't need the intercourse, but she usually insists as she wants me to have mine.

The same thing happens if I 'O' first. Then I offer to use a toy or touch or my mouth to ensure she gets hers. Sometimes she tells me she doesn't want to continue, but most often she does.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

our typical:
1.I get home first,shower and wait naked in bed for him
2.he gets home,greets me,washes his face and hands.gets naked.climbs into bed.
3.we talk about our day while cuddling 
4.cuddling gets more intense and sexual and talking stops.
5.he uses his fingers then does oral for a few minutes
6.stops then does PIV for a bit
7.stops then does oral til I O
8.more piv til I O again then he has his O. (may vary if we change positions)
9.cuddle. then dinner  

lol it sounds boring compared to the routine of others but it's so awesome to me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Reason the women aren't here at TAM...they don't care like men do about sex/marriage/relationships


The reason that I came to board much like this is that I cared about marriage and relationships. All he cared about was sex.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

SB - color me jealous


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> The reason that I came to board much like this is that I cared about marriage and relationships. All he cared about was sex.


The reason that I came to board much like this is that I cared about marriage and relationships. She thinks all I care about is sex.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> our typical:
> 1.I get home first,shower and wait naked in bed for him
> 2.he gets home,greets me,washes his face and hands.gets naked.climbs into bed.
> 3.we talk about our day while cuddling
> ...


Sounds much like us. Except for us, this only happens once a month after several rejections.

I sometimes do PIV for a bit before Oral too, but sometimes she won't let me stop. Which quite often means I reach O before she gets a chance to. Which I don't really like. 

If we had sex more than once a month, maybe I could last a bit longer for her.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> Sounds much like us. Except for us, this only happens once a month after several rejections.
> 
> I sometimes do PIV for a bit before Oral too, but sometimes she won't let me stop. Which quite often means I reach O before she gets a chance to. Which I don't really like.
> 
> If we had sex more than once a month, maybe I could last a bit longer for her.


There have been several times where I felt way too lazy to O so i try to get him too excited to hold back during PIV so I won't have to O LOL 

I never get away with it though. He's too strong and always controls the situation  

I'm sure you could last longer but I heard something interesting from one of those radio dr shows..they did a survey and women mostly preferred for their man to last between 5-10 minutes max after the woman has had her orgasm.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Don't think I am the same Sam! Never had a pharmacist involved in anything with us.
> 
> Been complaining about this same issue for years though.


Whew! I am glad. Because he was one pathetic case. His wife was really nasty and belittling to him. He did not care. All he cared about was getting some. He had a thing for the pharmacist, who never gave him anything more than medications. But he pined and pined. 

Hopefully you get your things fixed! Here is best wishin'.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> The reason that I came to board much like this is that I cared about marriage and relationships. She thinks all I care about is sex.


Yah. I don't respond on these topics anymore. It is like talking about 2 different things. The major thing that helped us was love languages. But many people take love language education and point at their partners and say SEE THAT is what *I* want. But that is not easy since if they love languages are different, then just doing that on a consistent basis does not come easy. So we learned hot to try to do both speak each others' love languages but to hear love in our spouses'.

The problem with the sex conversation is that most men SAY they want relationship and intimacy. But what they want is those things expressed as sex. That combined with puppy dog when are having sex, why aren't we having sex is a total love horny killer.

Think about it. When she says when are we gonna talk, when are we gonna cuddle, why don't we go on dates, does it make you want to cuddle right on up with her? You feel like uuurggggg I have to do this. And you do. Which she can feel is not your bag. So she feels all you want is sex. So she occasionally does. But does not want to. You can feel she does not want to. So you feel she does not really want the relationship. One big cycle of bad.

Guys one tip for you. 1 = 1. Intimacy does not equal sex. When you use those words interchangeably on this board, it makes it clear that YOU THINK THAT THEY ARE. Which might be why you don't get what SHE means.

That and read Passionate Marriage.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah. I don't respond on these topics anymore. It is like talking about 2 different things. The major thing that helped us was love languages. But many people take love language education and point at their partners and say SEE THAT is what *I* want. But that is not easy since if they love languages are different, then just doing that on a consistent basis does not come easy. So we learned hot to try to do both speak each others' love languages but to hear love in our spouses'.
> 
> The problem with the sex conversation is that most men SAY they want relationship and intimacy. But what they want is those things expressed as sex. That combined with puppy dog when are having sex, why aren't we having sex is a total love horny killer.
> 
> ...



would you agree though that sex is *necessary *for true intimacy? that there can be sex with little intimacy in a relationship, but there cannot be true intimacy without sex.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nuclearnightmare said:


> would you agree though that sex is *necessary *for true intimacy? that there can be sex with little intimacy in a relationship, but there cannot be true intimacy without sex.


I believe that sex is necessary for marital intimacy. I think sex can even generate a feeling of intimacy. But I think a feeling of trust, caring and genuine intimacy is necessary for many women to want to bother with sexual intimacy. Otherwise we just feel used.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

^^ And I don't believe in "true" intimacy. Like one way of generating the sense of trust and closeness is superior to another. As long as everyone gets there.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I believe that sex is necessary for marital intimacy. I think sex can even generate a feeling of intimacy. But I think a feeling of trust, caring and genuine intimacy is necessary for many women to want to bother with sexual intimacy. Otherwise we just feel used.


I agree. 

Nothing is worse than feeling like the only reason your man talks to you is Bc he wants to get off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> ^^ And I don't believe in "true" intimacy. Like one way of generating the sense of trust and closeness is superior to another. As long as everyone gets there.


well, sounds like we agree. genuine, high quality intimacy requires both the physical and the emotional. that's basically what I meant.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Not surprising when that is their target audience. Wasn't like they asked a number of random men to get a representative sample.
> 
> You are wrong about how studies work. If you do a study and want statistically accurate results, you need a random sample.


Yes they asked a bunch of random men and women. They did not ask only their clients. 

There were over 4000 people who participated.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I agree.
> 
> Nothing is worse than feeling like the only reason your man talks to you is Bc he wants to get off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think I see what you mean. The opposite problem might not be as clearcut, perhaps. i.e. does a spouse, husband say, resent his wife desiring affection or emotional support when she shows little to no interest in sex. Should they feel similar-type resentment?? I kinda think they should but........:scratchhead:


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I agree.
> 
> Nothing is worse than feeling like the only reason your man talks to you is Bc he wants to get off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is where the article comes in. Women need to realize that the act of sex to a man is much more than just 'getting off'.

The feeling of trust and caring that the previous poster talks about, comes directly from sex for many men. When we get married, we 'trust' that you will be there for us, since we have committed to only you. Men for the most part really are quite easy to please and if you are there for us sexually, then we know you 'care' about our greatest need.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Men are super easy to please yet women will do everything in their power not to make that happen..to what end?

Seems counter intuitive/productive to not satisfy the husband sexually

None of this happens in a vacuum... if the husband isn't satisfied then the wife is going to receive less of his attention again to what end?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

nuclearnightmare said:


> I think I see what you mean. The opposite problem might not be as clearcut, perhaps. i.e. does a spouse, husband say, resent his wife desiring affection or emotional support when she shows little to no interest in sex. Should they feel similar-type resentment?? I kinda think they should but........:scratchhead:


Exactly ... 

Example .... My wife and I are intimate and a day or two later she wants me to sit and watch one of her 'decorating' shows with her. No problem. I have all the time in the world for her. I sit at the end of the couch and rub her feet and I listen to her comments about the color of this thing or how nice that thing would look in the den, etc. I give my two cents about some things I notice. I sincerely like spending the quality time with her.

But after three weeks of her staying up until 1:00am avoiding me and telling me to leave her alone in the morning when I try to hug, the situation changes. She might want me to watch her 'program' with her, but I find it much more comfortable watching the football game on the TV in the basement. By myself!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> EleGirl you have goggles on...


Nope, you do. You seem to want to play the victim and blame all women for this.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Men are happy when sharing sex with their wives as long as their wives are into it..that is ideal.


This is not true for a good number of men. There are plenty of women who love sex, who want good/wild sex but are married to men who do not want sex with their wives.

I've experienced this. There are many women here on TAM who have experienced this.

A larger percentage of women who are in counseling for marriage problems seek out the counseling because there husbands refuse to have sex. And usually their husbands refuse to go to counseling to work on the marriage problems. So much for the idea that only men are interested in working on solving marriages issues.



Trying2figureitout said:


> All the stuff you talk about is BECAUSE men's sex is NOT satiated by their own wives or girlfriends as a whole. I'll bet some of the men you speak of withholding do so in anger because their own wives never gave him a decent sex life to begin with.


I am high drive. I prefer to have sex at daily... good sex, wild sex. After about 5 years of marriage my husband refused to have sex with me. The reason he gave was that until I did not clean the house well enough, or that I cleaned the kitchen today instead of the bedroom and I should have known that the bedroom needed to be cleaned.

It did not matter that I was the primary breadwinner because he quit his job and to go to medical school. So I support him and our son for most of our marriage, his choice. I had a software and research company with contracts at places like the national labs. I did 99% of household chores, shopping, and taking care of our son. 

It did not matter to him that he has a wife who supported his ambitions to be a doctor (he already was an engineer with an MS in EE). It did not matter to him that he had a wife how want all the sex he did and was more than willing to play. It did matter to him that he had a wife who want to do things like go out and do fun/interesting things with him. 

It did not matter to him that no matter what problem he had, he had a wife who was willing to work it out, go through counseling , anything to make our marriage work.

What mattered to him is that he wanted a lot of sex outside the marriage and he had to find a way to justify it.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Wake up to the facts


So are blind in that you really don't like women and thus want to blame all things on women. I feel very badly for you. Hopefully one day you will find some way to realize that women are not the evil creatures you paint us to be. And some day you will come to realize that there are good and bad men and women. No one gender has a hold on that.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Nope, you do. You seem to want to play the victim and blame all women for this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like women when they have sex with their husbands. The rest I have no sympathy for because frankly its unfair to those trapped in those situations and there are many situations like that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I like women when they have sex with their husbands. The rest I have no sympathy for because frankly its unfair to those trapped in those situations and there are many situations like that.


I don't understand this reply. Please clarify.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Give it a rest Ele!!!!

I think we can all agree that is just as wrong for men to withhold sex as it is for women to.

We are a couple of guys expressing our issues with our wives. Referencing articles that discuss how women need to realize how important this is to their husbands. 

If you want to find a similar article about men withholding sex, then start your own thread about that.

I honestly don't care to argue about how many husbands are withholding vs wives. 

I just want my situation resolved as I am a 50 year old man that has committed more than half of my life to a woman that either doesn't care or doesn't understand. I don't want to spend the next (and probably last) 20 years feeling frustrated and alone like the past 20 years have been.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Nope, you do. You seem to want to play the victim and blame all women for this.


It is easier than manning up and being the kind of man a woman WANTS to have sex with. That's too much work.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Give it a rest Ele!!!!
> 
> I think we can all agree that is just as wrong for men to withhold sex as it is for women to.
> 
> ...


You and that poster are unrelated entirely. I suppose you have already gone the dragging your wife into counseling route?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I don't understand this reply. Please clarify.


Listen to Sam..Ele 

We don't care about men who withhold from wives because frankly they are uncommon...what is common are the situations most men here complaining are in.

That is what needs resolved FIRST then we can worry about women who don't get enough.

So I admire your tenacity but you are barking up the wrong tree here, we know the way the world is and the obvious wives try to get out of sex as soon as they can after kids. That's the issue.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> You and that poster are unrelated entirely. I suppose you have already gone the dragging your wife into counseling route?


I have gone to counseling once myself. I have asked her to go a few times. She refuses as she doesn't have a problem.

I have read 'Trying2's thread. While I don't agree with his approach, I do see some similarities.

I am not bitter with all women. Just my wife. The reason I am thinking of separating is because I want a companion. I will have no problem starting over with a different woman, if that is the route I choose.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I object to the notion of "withholding". This is my BODY, and I don't owe it to anyone. Sex is, obviously, important in a marriage. But the solution is not to feel owed and the party not interested as "withholding". Male or female. And I will bet my hat that that attitude contributes.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Listen to Sam..Ele
> 
> We don't care about men who withhold from wives because frankly they are uncommon...what is common are the situations most men here complaining are in.
> 
> ...


I get that you and many do not care about the fact that this is an issue that affects men and women equally. 

Do not expect women to care about your issues if you don't care about it when women are dealing with the same issues.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I have gone to counseling once myself. I have asked her to go a few times. She refuses as she doesn't have a problem.
> 
> I have read 'Trying2's thread. While I don't agree with his approach, I do see some similarities.
> 
> I am not bitter with all women. Just my wife. The reason I am thinking of separating is because I want a companion. I will have no problem starting over with a different woman, if that is the route I choose.


Honestly, if she won't come to the table, she is selfish and does not care for you. I can see why you would not want that. I sure wouldn't.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I get that you and many do not care about the fact that this is an issue that affects men and women equally.
> 
> Do not expect women to care about your issues if you don't care about it when women are dealing with the same issues.



Just because you say its equal does not make it true


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> I get that you and many do not care about the fact that this is an issue that affects men and women equally.
> 
> Do not expect women to care about your issues if you don't care about it when women are dealing with the same issues.


Nobody said they don't care about your issues. I hate that your husband withheld sex from you. I feel bad for you, because I have a very good idea how it feels. It is the worst possible way to live. 

Like someone once said. "Sex isn't the most important thing in marriage until it isn't happening."


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NobodySpecial said:


> I object to the notion of "withholding". This is my BODY, and I don't owe it to anyone. Sex is, obviously, important in a marriage. But the solution is not to feel owed and the party not interested as "withholding". Male or female. And I will bet my hat that that attitude contributes.


What term would you like us to use to describe what is going on in our marriages?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Give it a rest Ele!!!!
> 
> I think we can all agree that is just as wrong for men to withhold sex as it is for women to.
> 
> ...


You are missing my entire point. It's not a male only issue. It's an issue that plagues both men and women equally.

And guess what, there are things that I and many women who are or have gone through the same thing could add that might help you with your situation. Why? Because they are relevant no matter who is withholding. But what has to be realized before a person can repair these kind of issues is that they are not male/female specific.

If a wife withholding sex is addressed as something that women do just because women are mean and selfish, the problem is not very likely to be resolved.

By telling women that you don't care if the same thing happens to us, you are shutting up half of those who could support you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> What term would you like us to use to describe what is going on in our marriages?


Honestly? She just not that into you. Not trying to be mean. It's a hard truth, but it is the truth. *I* don't have a problem and don't give a rats ass about yours is not a marriage.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Agree, she's just not into you, Sam.

Either accept it or don't, leave or don't...but it won't change.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

"Women can go to their girlfriends, a counselor, a guy friend, a mother, father, relative, aunt, to connect and talk to people. Men don’t generally do this"

I would never talk to anyone (besides a counselor) about my sex life or anything else related to my marriage, that would be embarrassing to my husband for anyone to know his ED problems. The article could have been titled 5 Reasons Why Men Shouldn’t Deprive their Women of Sex and everything would be the same. I agree that more wives deprive their husbands of sex that visa versa but it hurts just as much for the wives.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Sam I've read your posts over time and I don't know what to say except that I feel that a man like you deserves to be loved. What do you plan to do? What is stopping you from acting decisively? There are probably good things about your wife and you love her right? 

Is that enough to get you through the next 30 yrs? Can you make yourself satisfied with your life so that you can stay with your wife. She controls this. I hope you let her know. You are not the bad one. Sometimes a sexless marriage is intractable. Nothing you do works. Given that you have tried your best over the years, what now. What would your life be like if you D? 

There are many men on this forum who have been in your position and found it necessary to pull the plug. They go through a period of adjustment but in the end their lives are different but better. I am not advocating giving up and thinking of greener pastures, but giving up the misery you are in for a better life. You can do it Sam. Just take the first step and know that your life will be better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Agree, she's just not into you, Sam.
> 
> Either accept it or don't, leave or don't...but it won't change.


OK but I wonder whether, before a sexually rejected spouse pulls the plug, they should take some serious interim step. e.g. shut off some of the things the rejecting spouse wants/needs...e.g. affection, emotional support (e.g. listening/talking) etc.

not rhetorical...don't really know the answer. wondering how people view that.
I tend to think the answer is yes. it's simlpy taking a drastic measure (leaving) via 2 or 3 steps rather than just blowing things up in one fell swoop. i.e. a "shot accross the bow" before punching holes in the hull.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EleGirl, your partner had a lot of the God Complex common in very highly driven people. To go to med school after an MSEE takes an incredible amount of drive.

So it's not you that were left out to dry - you were in a no win situation. 

I don't dislike women and have no agenda of any kind but as someone who has spent a lifetime doing data analysis for my work and reading / writing refereed papers let's just say the evidence seems to suggest that male incidents of LD in my view based on sound methodology is lower than female LD. 

Here are more studies that meet every criterion in the book for methodology... The numbers all seem to agree.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJM197807202990302

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

This is for populations of course, not individual people. One or two cases are just that, individuals, but on the average there seems to be a difference that is consistent across several studies.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

John I didn't open your links but, how old are the studies?

All newer studies have been showing that if men AND women feel free to answer honestly without sexual shame and stigma, the numbers of HD women go up and the numbers of LD men go up.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Sam, 

Did not read the whole thread here but...

Become a better man. Workout. Heavy weights, use your ears and mouth in that portion (i.e., listen twice as much as you speak). Learn how to listen, buddy. Women are easy to understand if you listen. Actually listen. 

Read MMSLP. Take it seriously. Work out more, listen more. b!tch less. You'll have more sex if that's what you want. Fix yourself.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> *How long are you going to stay in an empty, sexless marriage?* I stayed 20 years, far too long. Getting out was the best thing I ever did for myself, my kids and my ex.


Sad Sam... I asked you this question on PAGE ONE of your thread... you never answered it. It might behoove you to read my thread in my signature line below.

I've read many of your posts, and your other threads. You have been on TAM for awhile. Your reluctance to ACT is why you're stuck in the same boat for years, spinning in circles, getting nowhere.

So... what's your answer to my question?

If you don't answer, I will just chalk you up to being another SteveK (Venting on TAM with no real plan to change your circumstance.)


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> EleGirl, your partner had a lot of the God Complex common in very highly driven people. To go to med school after an MSEE takes an incredible amount of drive.


Yes I get that he is high drive. I was with him through his MS/EE program, through medical school and residency. We married a couple of years before medical school. I am also very high driven. I come from a family of highly education, high drive (as in ambition) people. 

AS you might recall for a recent thread of mine. My son is the same. He just graduated with dual degrees in physics and applied mathematics.

So I guess that’s the type of people I relate to.


john117 said:


> So it's not you that were left out to dry - you were in a no win situation.


His high-drive/ambition is not what caused the problems. I know many highly ambitious people who do not mistreat their spouse. He was raised to be a selfish, mean person. His mother encouraged him to be this way. Even when we were married she’s encourage him to do things like cheat (yes she said he is entitled to cheat). 



john117 said:


> I don't dislike women and have no agenda of any kind but as someone who has spent a lifetime doing data analysis for my work and reading / writing refereed papers let's just say the evidence seems to suggest that male incidents of LD in my view based on sound methodology is lower than female LD.


I never said that you dislike women because I don’t believe that you do.
I agree, LD is a medical issue for the most part. It can be measured through things like hormone testing, ED response, etc. 
LD is not the only reason that some people chose make their marriages sexless or near sexless. When it comes to sexless/low-sex marriages other factors contribute. 

But LD is only part of the reason that some marriages end up sexless or near sexless. 




john117 said:


> Here are more studies that meet every criterion in the book for methodology... The numbers all seem to agree.


I’m heading out to dinner so will look at your links later.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> EleGirl, your partner had a lot of the God Complex common in very highly driven people. To go to med school after an MSEE takes an incredible amount of drive.
> 
> So it's not you that were left out to dry - you were in a no win situation.
> 
> ...


Ok I read the links. None of them classify LD/HD. 

The studies were looking at the occurrence of what they call sexual dysfunction: erectile or ejaculatory dysfunction, arousal or orgasmic dysfunction.

A person could have a "dysfunction once in a life time and become a point in the stats." The studies were of couples who said that they were happily married and were satisfied with their sex lives.

So I go back to my point... the studies you posted did not look at sexless marriages. This is a completely different topic.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And if a woman does not want sex that's not a disfunction? If there's no arousal, no desire, low libido, blah blah blah...

You're only seeing what you want to see I'm afraid.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> And if a woman does not want sex that's not a disfunction? If there's no arousal, no desire, low libido, blah blah blah...
> 
> You're only seeing what you want to see I'm afraid.


The links that you posted define sexual dysfunction physical and hormonal problems such as: erectile dysfunction, ejaculatory dysfunction, arousal dysfunction or orgasmic dysfunction.

Not all people who have some kind of sexual dysfunction one or more times in their life are in sexless marriages. Many (probably most) only experience the dysfunction on occasion. 

There are many people who have no sexual dysfunction in that their bodies work just fine. They just do not want sex with their spouse for any number of reasons. A large percentage of people who chose to make their marriage sexless fall in this category. Some use sex as a passive aggressive way to hurt/punish their spouse. Sometimes it’s not passive aggressive. Sometimes they are very clear that they don’t want sex with their spouse because of what they see as serious marital issues.

For example, many men who refuse sex with their wives, use porn to get off sexually. There is nothing physically wrong with them. They just don’t want to be intimate with their wives because of what they see as serious marital problems. 

Many women who refuse sex with their husband have no sexual dysfunction. They masturbate (with or without toys) because they do not want to be intimate with their husbands due to what they see as serious martial problems.

And of course some men and some women chose to have no sexual dysfunction but choose to have affairs and avoid sex with their spouse because of marital issues.


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

I say the exact same thing that list says, on almost every thread in this forum. This logic still gets argued with daily.

Sad.

Sex is part of a marriage, if you are depriving your spouse of sex, you are not doing marriage right. 

And don't work on all your problems and hold off sex until they are fixed. Sex is not a tool used to train your spouse, or punish your spouse. But, dumb people do dumb things.

Good original post.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> You are missing my entire point. It's not a male only issue. It's an issue that plagues both men and women equally.
> 
> And guess what, there are things that I and many women who are or have gone through the same thing could add that might help you with your situation. Why? Because they are relevant no matter who is withholding. But what has to be realized before a person can repair these kind of issues is that they are not male/female specific.
> 
> ...


My point of posting wasn't to say 'look what women are doing to men, that men aren't doing to women'. I agree that some men do this to women as well.

And again, I have never said that I don't care the same thing happens to women. I do.

I don't see how you say I am shutting up half of those who could support me. I am listening to those providing support.

All I am hearing from you is ... The same thing happens to women. Fine! I am not arguring that. 

Now if you have any support to offer, I am all ears.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well, EleGirl makes the assumption that all withholding is intentional, resentment driven, and not part of a disorder or dysfunction.

That is not the case. Some of it is, but a lot of it is not. And for every resentment driven case one could counter with every untreatable ED case so...

The very definition of SAD and other disorders includes lack of interest, lack of arousal, lack of desire, etc. 

And even in cases where resentment starts the withholding cycle it often turns into one of those Middle East conflicts that nobody remembers why but we're still fighting so dysfunction takes over right there.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OK but I wonder whether, before a sexually rejected spouse pulls the plug, they should take some serious interim step. e.g. shut off some of the things the rejecting spouse wants/needs...e.g. affection, emotional support (e.g. listening/talking) etc.
> 
> not rhetorical...don't really know the answer. wondering how people view that.
> I tend to think the answer is yes. it's simlpy taking a drastic measure (leaving) via 2 or 3 steps rather than just blowing things up in one fell swoop. i.e. a "shot accross the bow" before punching holes in the hull.


This is where I am at right now. I need to do SOMETHING!

Do I just pack up my belongings and move out?

I think I will start a thread on what steps should be taken to end this cycle.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> This is where I am at right now. I need to do SOMETHING!
> 
> Do I just pack up my belongings and move out?
> 
> I think I will start a thread on what steps should be taken to end this cycle.


Check the laws on abandonment before you pack up and roll out.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

happy as a clam said:


> Sad Sam... I asked you this question on PAGE ONE of your thread... you never answered it. It might behoove you to read my thread in my signature line below.
> 
> I've read many of your posts, and your other threads. You have been on TAM for awhile. Your reluctance to ACT is why you're stuck in the same boat for years, spinning in circles, getting nowhere.
> 
> ...


I didn't answer because I have not been at the point where I know what the answer is. It could be 1 week or it could be 2 years or never. I go from being ready to give up, to wanting to continue to work at it.

I read your story. I am glad you got out of your marriage.

I think it would be easier if I had someone to go to like you did. You already started a relationship (although not physical) so you knew where you were going. One of my fears, is that I will end up alone.

Actually, I don't think I will be alone. I have a fair amount of money (and still will after she takes half) which might attract some women, but I don't want someone that is only there because of money. I need to be needed and wanted.

While I have had some women show interest, I have always steered away, as I believe strongly in the committment of marriage.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Would being alone for a bit really be so terrible at this point though? Maybe it would be healthy for you


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand this reply. Please clarify.
> ...


T2, it's obvious you don't care. We've all seen it. Why? Because if you actually acknowledged what others have been saying, you'd see there is something wrong with YOU, not just your wife! Oh, yes, she was wrong to seek attention elsewhere. We've gone round and round on this subject, but as far as I know, Sam's wife never cheated on him, whether physical or emotional. Your problems are not like Sam's. You talk a good game, T2. But that's all it is. All talk, no action. 

Oh, but I forgot. I'm atypical. I wanted sex again two weeks after having our kids and wanted sex until it became unbearably uncomfortable in any position, during the pregnancies. 

Yours is not the norm, T2. Well, actually, it is the norm, considering everything else you keep trying to rugsweep...

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Q tip said:


> Sam,
> 
> Did not read the whole thread here but...
> 
> ...


...and nothing will change until his wife decides to do something and it won't be because he became a better option it will be because she looks at her life and realizes what she has done. Doesn't matter if he works out or acts a certain way its all on her.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The concept of "shared liability" seems to elude most people here...


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> T2, it's obvious you don't care. We've all seen it. Why? Because if you actually acknowledged what others have been saying, you'd see there is something wrong with YOU, not just your wife! Oh, yes, she was wrong to seek attention elsewhere. We've gone round and round on this subject, but as far as I know, Sam's wife never cheated on him, whether physical or emotional. Your problems are not like Sam's. You talk a good game, T2. But that's all it is. All talk, no action.
> 
> Oh, but I forgot. I'm atypical. I wanted sex again two weeks after having our kids and wanted sex until it became unbearably uncomfortable in any position, during the pregnancies.
> 
> ...


You are atypical as you are a woman on TAM and not on Facebook or candy crush. 

I care if I didn't I wouldn't be here. What I will do is give my observation of the sexless marriage epidemic and point to the source.

Otherwise the guy is basically wasting his time trying to "become a better option" whilst the deck is completely stacked against him because of the way women view sex.

Everyone wants to be so PC about it and say its equal its NOT.

You have one gender that NEEDS sex until they die to operate a peak levels and another that can take or leave it. One lists sex 1 or 2 on lists the other at 8,9,10

That's the issue! Different views on SEX.

We all try to think there is a solution to this THERE ISN'T and the most effective strategy for a guy is to bail out of the sexless marriage find a new relationship get sex until that becomes a long term relationship and either repeats or he's lucky enough to find a wife who is in her second marriage (like many here at TAM) and are "determined" not to have sex issues ever again(because her first marriage FAILED!) and redouble their efforts to satisfy him.

So I'm sorry if the truth is harsh but its the way the world works... we can thank women's lib, the Internet , media, dual incomes AND SOCIETY FOR THIS IMBALANCE.

So what can a guy do:

1. Its her issue, she KNOWS sex is integral to a marriage yet is behaving badly because she can
2. Try to have sex with her and don't bat an eye if rejected
3. Keep trying whenever you want
4. She starts in time to see she is the issue
(Insert time here)
5. She decides to do something about it
6. Find a happy medium

Its an easy process but exceedingly difficult in practice. the reason is resentment on both sides. You find it hard to not bat an eye when rejected. So many guys bail or as I do go long stretches not trying at all...until I get the mental fortitude to try again.

Its the real way this stuff works.

Example: 

1. When sex worked, I knew when it would occur. Attempted sometimes got rejected but by the second or third attempt we had sex...then I knew there would be a lull and when it got to a certain point try again...it worked. This was most of our marriage. Like clockwork...predictable

2, Sexless.... Try reject, try, reject, try reject.... say WTF and don't try.... wait n period of weeks/months.... Try reject, try reject, try reject.... WTF wait n number of weeks/months.... try success but sex is lame.... WTF wait n number of week/months..... Like random chance..unpredictable

See the pattern its on her for rejecting and its on me partially for saying WTF.

The solution is to try as much as possible until success.(easy to say , hard to do in practice) because guys don't want to put that much work in for scraps.

If women would learn this marriages would be so much better.

*A husband should not have to "get lucky" with his own wife!*

When a wife makes it like winning the lottery its a problem and its on HER becuse she never initiates and blocks his initiations...its HER problem at the core not his. All she has to do is say yes and then she gets 10x the payback for doing so... other wise the husband is WTF and does odd things like joining TAM to complain.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> You are atypical as you are a woman on TAM and not on Facebook or candy crush.


Actually, I do all of the above... plus I email, chat, earn a little extra doing online things to help toward Christmas presents each year...Oh, and I have seriously contemplated gaming again, since my husband has started playing computer games again. Atypical? Hardly. From my own observations, these things make me more typical.



Trying2figureitout said:


> I care if I didn't I wouldn't be here. What I will do is give my observation of the sexless marriage epidemic and point to the source.


YOU said you don't care. You don't care about the FACT that there are many men who withhold sex, just as many women do. The source? According to you, it's all the woman's fault. And what others have tried to beat into your head is that it is NOT always the woman's fault. The source, you say? In SOME it is the woman who instigates. In SOME it is the man who instigates. It is not as clear cut as YOU seem to wish it was.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Otherwise the guy is basically wasting his time trying to "become a better option" whilst the deck is completely stacked against him because of the way women view sex.


The was SOME women view it. You get so caught up in this that you refuse to recognize that MANY women love sex. It isnt just the women on TAM, either. Yes, I know some on both sides. I did have one woman (on Facebook) tell me that I should withhold sex to get my husband to clean up the messes HE makes. My response? "Why would I do something that punishes ME, too?" I got so many women on there who agreed with me. These are not TAM people, T2, but people I have known for MANY years. Perhaps I should ask them to come on here? But then, they'd end up knowing WAY too much about my sex life, which they don't need to know.



Trying2figureitout said:


> Everyone wants to be so PC about it and say its equal its NOT.


I'm not saying it's equal. What I'm saying is that it isnt NEARLY as skewed as you would like to believe.



Trying2figureitout said:


> You have one gender that NEEDS sex until they die to operate a peak levels and another that can take or leave it.
> 
> That's the issue!


And what you fail to see is that it is NOT gender specific. Not every man NEEDS sex to operate at peak levels and not every woman can "take it or leave it" This is the issue YOU are blind to. You have tunnel vision and if something goe against what YOU believe, you cannot accept it. It does not compute. THAT is the issue!



Trying2figureitout said:


> We all try to think there is a solution to this THERE ISN'T and the most effective strategy for a guy is to bail out of the sexless marriage find a new relationship get sex until that becomes a long term relationship and either repeats or he's lucky enough to find a wife who is in her second marriage (like many here at TAM) and are *"determined" not to have sex issues ever again and redouble their efforts to satisfy him.*


And, one again, you fail to see that it doesn't have to be that way. Maybe someone in a sexless marriage WILL have to leave in order to be happy. It doesn't mean that future relationships are doomed to the same fate, once they are "long term". And, while you won't believe it, there are many who love sex who haven't even married yet. Some who haven't had sex are anxious... yes, even the women. One thing that really bothered me was the last part in bold. Those words imply that the woman was the problem in the previous relationship. That isn't always the case, ad they BOTH should make the efforts to satisfy EACH OTHER.



Trying2figureitout said:


> So I'm sorry if the truth is harsh but its the way the world works... we can thank women's lib, the Internet , media, dual incomes AND SOCIETY FOR THIS IMBALANCE.


It's the way YOU percieve that it works. And, until you, and others like you, can accept that things aren't as simple as you seem to think, this perceived imbalance will continue. 



Trying2figureitout said:


> So what can a guy do:
> 
> 1. Its her issue, she KNOWS sex is integral to a marriage
> 2. Try to have sex with her and don't bat an eye if rejected
> ...


7. Make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that he hasn't done something that caused the cold shoulder. (No this is NOT directed at every single man in a sexless maggiage)
8. Fix his own issues.

In addition to that, for the women whose husbands are withholding, sub in "he", "his", "him" in place of the pronouns used by T2 (and vice versa with #7 and #8 that I added).



Trying2figureitout said:


> Its an easy process but exceedingly difficult in practice. *the reason is resentment on both sides.* You find it hard to not bat an eye when rejected. So many guys bail or as I do go long stretches not trying at all...until I get the mental fortitude to try again.
> 
> Its the real way this stuff works.


Wait, did you ACTUALLY acknowledge something IS a problem on both sides??? Hey, you are not blaming the woman, only, for this so it's a start. No matter what the issue, resentment will build on both sides, as long as they let it. It IS hard when you are rejected time and again... and that's for both men and women, T2. It's hard for anyone to face rejection, no matter what the gender. And spare me the "but it's worse for a man". No, it's not. Rejection is rejection. It stings, it hurts, no matter who it is.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> ...and nothing will change until his wife decides to do something and it won't be because he became a better option it will be because she looks at her life and realizes what she has done. Doesn't matter if he works out or acts a certain way its all on her.


Did you ever actually try any of the MMSLP stuff? I'm not going to argue that it always works or even often, hell if I know. But, you seem to have a stance that it never works or at least very very rarely. I'm just curious if you ever tried it. 

You know one of the best aspects of MMSLP is (in my opinion) it works better when it doesn't work. You realize that you don't have to put up with the crap. You are better suited for dating and future relationships. You're stronger, faster, smarter. Ok maybe not, but you get the idea.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, I do all of the above... plus I email, chat, earn a little extra doing online things to help toward Christmas presents each year...Oh, and I have seriously contemplated gaming again, since my husband has started playing computer games again. Atypical? Hardly. From my own observations, these things make me more typical.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I disagree... because of the way sex affects each gender.

Your explanation assumes all is equal.... you fail because you do not acknowledge the unequal of the way sex is viewed by each gender so that invalidates the rest of your rebuttal.

I'm not saying MEN are correct perhaps we shouldn't be horndogs all the time
I'm not saying WOMAN are correct in ditching sex after they get a husband and kids

What I am saying is marriage stipulates sex and as long as it does the man should be satisfied and women who withhold that from him are the ones at fault based on marriage and the implied contract.

Singles can do whatever...married there is implied sexual contract due to exclusivity. So a happy medium needs to be reached where both are satisfied fully.

That applies to men and women the reason I call out women is their inherent gender specific views on sex


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Example:
> 
> 1. When sex worked, I knew when it would occur. Attempted sometimes got rejected but by the second or third attempt we had sex...then I knew there would be a lull and when it got to a certain point try again...it worked. This was most of our marriage. Like clockwork...predictable
> 
> ...


Now, switch that around and sub in the masculine pronouns in place of the feminine and you have what the ladies in sexless (or even nearly sexless) marriages feel like. EXACTLY the same. Wake up.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree... because of the way sex affects each gender.
> 
> Your explanation assumes all is equal.... you fail because you do not acknowledge the unequal of the way sex is viewed by each gender so that invalidates the rest of your rebuttal.


No, T2, you fail. You fail because you refuse to accept that women love sex as much as men.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> No, T2, you fail. You fail because you refuse to accept that women love sex as much as men.



I don't doubt they love sex, but are they having sex with their partners at the same levels as men are?

Also you're looking at it from the standpoint of healthy relationships. I would not be making that assumption based on those who post in TAM. Most of us have a burrow under our saddle otherwise we would not be here....

At the population level - not the individual or the self selected TAM group - few can argue that male sex drive is higher, usually MUCH higher, than female drive. 

If women want to convince the rest of the planet they're as into sex as men, they have an awful long way to go. 

If by love sex you also include mommy erotica and lifetime movie network then we are equal I suppose


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> I disagree... because of the way sex affects each gender.
> 
> Your explanation assumes all is equal.... you fail because you do not acknowledge the unequal of the way sex is viewed by each gender so that invalidates the rest of your rebuttal.
> 
> ...


Every time I read one of your posts, my skin crawls and my stomach knots. If I were your wife, I would be repulsed by you.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Personal said:


> I've had two wives so far, yet I haven't experienced a sexless marriage. Perhaps I'm choosing the wrong women, or I'm doing it wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are doing it wrong with two marriages perhaps you are getting sex but something was amiss unless the ex died


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Every time I read one of your posts, my skin crawls and my stomach knots. If I were your wife, I would be repulsed by you.


Fine sexless marriage is NOT pretty and the sooner you all realize it and quit with the ineffective advice the better this board will be as an effective tool of change.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Fine sexless marriage is NOT pretty and the sooner you all realize it and quit with the ineffective advice the better this board will be as an effective tool of change.


Strangely my ineffective advice put sex back in our marriage. Go figure. My husband gets whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I must be ineffective in my thinking.

How is your advice working for you?


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Strangely my ineffective advice put sex back in our marriage. Go figure. My husband gets whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I must be ineffective in my thinking.
> 
> How is your advice working for you?


You mean "wait and see"? He'll be having sex again within an unspecified time frame. GUARANTEED!!!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> I don't doubt they love sex, but are they having sex with their partners at the same levels as men are?
> 
> Also you're looking at it from the standpoint of healthy relationships. I would not be making that assumption based on those who post in TAM. Most of us have a burrow under our saddle otherwise we would not be here....
> 
> ...


I think this is not the issue. I think the REAL issue is that men are less likely to be affected by relationship issues and will pursue sex despite them.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I Don't Know said:


> You mean "wait and see"? He'll be having sex again within an unspecified time frame. GUARANTEED!!!


There is absolutely nothing that is guaranteed. The truth is, not everyone marries a good person.

Not sure where you got that I think wait and see is a great idea.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Personal said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not even to year 16 just wait.... my first 16 were great too...with predictable sex


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Strangely my ineffective advice put sex back in our marriage. Go figure. My husband gets whatever he wants, whenever he wants. I must be ineffective in my thinking.
> 
> How is your advice working for you?


YOU decided to do something...newsflash

Hence "success"

Again not a typical female of our species most *drag their feet*

Keep it up you make my observations of the sexless epidemic rock solid

YOU as the woman "put sex back in the marriage" not the other way around (as if it was a commodity)

I want you to notice your phrasing...
"My husband gets whatever *he wants*, whenever *he wants.*"

What you want in return is payback which is a less grumpy husband who does stuff for you NOT sex at face value like him....you like how he behaves afterwards.

He takes sex at face value..it makes him feel good and becuse of that he feels happier, closer and does more.
You take sex at the after-result...he does more and is happier.

He wants sex...you want him to be happy.... it works

If you all look at what I am saying its non-refutable.

Women value sex (at face value) much less...check
Success only happens when the woman decides to bring sex back to the marriage...check

"I have a headache" is a female stereotype...check

Some rarer cases of the man withholding...check

I stand by the facts not what people want to believe...no matter what the women at TAM say you are off base about sex and gender and sex issues in longer term marriages.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think this is not the issue. I think the REAL issue is that men are less likely to be affected by relationship issues and will pursue sex despite them.



Partially - if we focus on troubled relationships only. But how many times have we read about non troubled relationships where one spouse, oblivious to the other's needs, takes the mommy erotica or male equivalent ???

remember my classification of LD as unintentional ("stupid" spouse) versus intentional ("evil" spouse). There isn't really one or the other, but a mix. But the majority of LD is unintentional or unintentional based, I would think, not intentional.

The unintentional ones are easier to address, while the intentional seem to be resistant to intervention. 

Here in TAM Land we seem to be dealing with a pretty good mix of the two. 

In reality, and in prude Midwestern America at least one dies not need a lot of imagination to figure out whether sex is an issue. The more repressed sexually people are at home the more they push their agenda so....


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

john117 said:


> I don't doubt they love sex, but are they having sex with their partners at the same levels as men are?
> 
> Also you're looking at it from the standpoint of healthy relationships. I would not be making that assumption based on those who post in TAM. Most of us have a burrow under our saddle otherwise we would not be here....
> 
> ...


No, John, I am looking at it from the standpoint of someone whose marriage also had problems. Not that it isperfect, now, but it was worse before. Even in the sex department. Even now, we still have some problems, but we are working together (notice, I said *together*) on them. 

"Are they having sex at the same levels with their partners as men are?" Maybe, maybe not. I believe that some women have it at higher levels. Note, I'm not saying ALL, but SOME. See, I don't say aabsolute on this because I don't think it's completely equal. All I'm saying is that it isn't so far apart as T2 would like to believe.

"If women want to convince the rest of the planet they're as into sex as men, they have an awful long way to go." Unfortunately, I think you are correct in this assessment. Why? Because of the ridiculous stereotypes people keep buying into, and keep building on it, keep throwing it out there as the norm. Things won't change until people stop saying that's the way it "always" is. And when I say "people", I mean mothers who tell their daughters that they need to hold the sex lie hostage to get the dishes done, or whatever chore she wants done. Or even the ones who tell their daughters to have lots of sex before they marry to hook the man and then stop after the ring is on the finger. I also mean the men who insist that this is how a marriage IS, and always WILL BE. It isn't, or more specifically, it SHOULDN'T be this way. It isn't this way for everyone.


"If by love sex you also include mommy erotica and lifetime movie network then we are equal I suppose" YUCK! No!I think you know full well what I mean. I don't read that smut, nor do I indulge in the Lifetime programming. And yet, I love sex. But, as T2 has already pointed out, I'm atypical.


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> There is absolutely nothing that is guaranteed. The truth is, not everyone marries a good person.
> 
> Not sure where you got that I think wait and see is a great idea.


Sorry I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that is your advice. T2's advice and plan (previously) has been wait and see. And we've seen multiple verge of success posts with "within 6 months....within 12 months...." and so on.

However I gather from his posts that his plan now is Give Up, which probably will work for him once he ads the And Leave part.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

I Don't Know said:


> Sorry I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that is your advice. T2's advice and plan (previously) has been wait and see. And we've seen multiple verge of success posts with "within 6 months....within 12 months...." and so on.
> 
> However I gather from his posts that his plan now is Give Up, which probably will work for him once he ads the And Leave part.


Not that this is about me I apologize to the OP but I will let you know where I stand...

I had a PLAN and believed to my core it would work...and still may. 

I was convinced with enough change, risk taking and allowing time to work things would change.

Have they it depends on the measuring stick, not to my satisfaction yet.

So I am here to disclose some findings...the deck is stacked against men in marriage. Women do not in general value sex as much as men and rather when they claim to enjoy it they do so a much less direct level than men.

This allows them when situated in a comfy long-term marriage to decide no more sex or very much less sex because frankly it does not do much for them as their bodies and hormones change. They enter a a sexless state and are a-OK with it because they surmise they own their own body and that no one should have to do something they don't enjoy. This is the same reason why they have emotional affairs after all it isn't breaking the vow its just talk they rationalize. Women have a very hard time turning on the switch once it switches off.

So whether you like my findings or not I believe them to represent a majority of of the issue with sexless and low sex marriages where the woman is "witholding" and based on the overall stories here at TAM my findings get validated daily by others.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Fine sexless marriage is NOT pretty and the sooner you all realize it and quit with the ineffective advice the better this board will be as an effective tool of change.


Not one of us has said that sexless marriages are pretty. Not. One. and the advice given on this board has worked for those who are giving it. For instance, when a spouse has been cheating, and withholding sex because of it. Remarkably, when the one who was cheated on said "NO MORE!" and the partner was kicked out of the cheater's life for good, sex resumed... or the one who was cheated on said he or she asn't putting up with it and divorced. Either way, they followed the advice here, and got real results... By not burying their heads in the sand.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> Not one of us has said that sexless marriages are pretty. Not. One. and the advice given on this board has worked for those who are giving it. For instance, when a spouse has been cheating, and withholding sex because of it. Remarkably, when the one who was cheated on said "NO MORE!" and the partner was kicked out of the cheater's life for good, sex resumed... or the one who was cheated on said he or she asn't putting up with it and divorced. Either way, they followed the advice here, and got real results... By not burying their heads in the sand.


I eventually followed "the advice" and put a stop to my wife's cheating EA. There was no magic fix from that action other than stopping the affair.

So your premise that TAM advice is sound and fixes is wrong.

It boils down to gender differences in how each values sex. That is the cause of all this waste of time here on TAM.

Treat the source the LD/Witholding spouse and make them see *they* are the issue...*that is the solution.*

You discount those who have struggled with a sexless marriage for years and pretend there is a solution by the other spouse improving or setting boundaries...there isn't.

The only way these situations resolve is when usually the withholding women gets a light bulb.... sex is good and makes her life/situation better..then its resolved to both spouses satisfaction.

Again story after story support the facts I state.


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