# Do you have sex with your wife, or do you make love to her?



## RDJ

For those of us who have been married many years, sex can begin to lose the novelty and excitement. Even with all the games, toys, and role playing that a couple can incorporate, the sexual experience can start to feel too much like “we’ve been there, done that”. 

First sex can become routine, then it can become boring, and then it can stop altogether. You suddenly find yourself in a “sexless marriage”.

For some women sex can become just another one of the many chores that have to be completed in order to keep the household happy. In some cases, a woman may find it much simpler to just quickly take care of her and avoid the time and effort of sex completely, especially if she has a husband that is only concerned about pleasing himself.

It is my opinion that when it comes to sex, a lot of husbands are selfish. They focus too much on how their wife is going to please them, and not about the quality of the shared experience. 

They become so focused on what they are, or are not receiving, that the whole experience starts to feel like an unpleasant obligation to their wife, and most likely, IT IS.

A big key to keeping your married sex life fresh and alive is to learn how to be a selfless lover.

Selfless is when you focus on sharing your love and passion with your wife, without regard of what YOU are getting out of it. 

It’s when you make love to her in place of having sex with her. It’s when you look deep into her eyes and make love to her body, mind, and soul that she will feel loved in place of sexed.

When a husband shares himself in this way, sex is no longer “just sex”, it becomes an experience of “love making” that will be more enjoyable for his wife. 

True loving sex is always fun, regardless of how many years you may have been together.

So the next time you find yourself having selfish sex with your wife, STOP. Stop thinking about what you want to get out of this,how she is going to repay you, and think instead about what you can give her. 

Be selfless and give her your heart and soul. If you do this, don’t be surprised when you find your wife initiating a whole lot more “love making” in the future.


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## tacoma

Both.

Sometimes I just **** her.


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## that_girl

tacoma said:


> Both.
> 
> Sometimes I just **** her.


And she appreciates that.

A good ****ing is always needed.


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## RandomDude

F--king is such a crude way of putting it. I prefer the term RAMMING


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## RDJ

OK wise guys, make fun, till it happens to you?


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## morituri

Well said RDJ, follower of the great one Calle Zorro.

BTW, have you any experience with Susan Bratton's 'Revive Her Drive' material?


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## that_girl

"Until it happens to us"?

Are you struggling with this?


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## RDJ

that_girl said:


> "Until it happens to us"?
> 
> Are you struggling with this?


Thanks for your concern TG , I'm fine!

But in all seriousness, there are certainly women complaining about men that just sex them up, and the guy never figures out why she lost interest?

Clearly there are many reasons, but this one is pretty easy to change.


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## RDJ

morituri said:


> BTW, have you any experience with Susan Bratton's 'Revive Her Drive' material?


Checked it out, but she was a major turn off for me. You?


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## Debbie Roxs

Making love or as Dr John Grey calls it "Gourmet Sex" is wonderful but
sometimes a quickie is all that is needed.


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## that_girl

And sometimes just a nice, long effing.


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## friendlyguy

My wife never initiates sex, fakes orgasms, and told me that lingerie was humiliating.....so, I stopped initiating and have denied her any sex for 12 months....she has killed my ego with her anger long ago...I will divorce her soon.


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## Anubis

tacoma said:


> Both.
> 
> Sometimes I just **** her.





that_girl said:


> And she appreciates that.
> 
> A good ****ing is always needed.


*THIS! *:iagree::iagree:

Two things that I hope bode well for us. 

First is that Sex is seen as part of the daily effort that we both put into the relationship (not that we have it daily, though our average is > 1.0x per day, but that it's seen as a very important part of the foundation we've build together, never-ending maintenance on which is being woven into our daily life.

Second is that I've pushed her and taught her to user her "voice" and speak up whenever we are becoming dissatisfied or sense a rut. 

We have a standing rule in our relationship: If you don't speak up about something and tell the other clearly, you have zero rights to hold the other person responsible/blame them/punish them/etc... you got to own it or eat it. No expectations of mind-reading allowed. Despite our asymmetric power dynamic, that rule applies to both equally and trumps just about everything else.

She's spoken up a couple times before about feeling a sex rut coming on, and I took action to make our long (and short) term intimacy patterns have more variety and freshness, not just in position or location, but in the mental/feelings department.


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## MEM2020

Anubis,
Great post. We have that same rule. If you don't like what is happening - you speak up. If it still isn't fixed - you exert more pressure. The beauty of that is stuff gets resolved quickly. If my wife ever started down the path of "I have years of resentments, causing me to not want intimacy and I have no idea how long it will take me to get over them" I would rush her to the ER for an emergency cat scan of her brain. She just so isn't like that. There is one guy on here who is LETTING himself be held hostage over forgetting to load film in a camera 6 plus years ago. Hello?

As for sex. Well you are killing me on frequency - but quality is great and largely because communication about sex is just as clear, easy and frequent as about any other topic we address. 





Anubis said:


> *THIS! *:iagree::iagree:
> 
> Two things that I hope bode well for us.
> 
> First is that Sex is seen as part of the daily effort that we both put into the relationship (not that we have it daily, though our average is > 1.0x per day, but that it's seen as a very important part of the foundation we've build together, never-ending maintenance on which is being woven into our daily life.
> 
> Second is that I've pushed her and taught her to user her "voice" and speak up whenever we are becoming dissatisfied or sense a rut.
> 
> We have a standing rule in our relationship: If you don't speak up about something and tell the other clearly, you have zero rights to hold the other person responsible/blame them/punish them/etc... you got to own it or eat it. No expectations of mind-reading allowed. Despite our asymmetric power dynamic, that rule applies to both equally and trumps just about everything else.
> 
> She's spoken up a couple times before about feeling a sex rut coming on, and I took action to make our long (and short) term intimacy patterns have more variety and freshness, not just in position or location, but in the mental/feelings department.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

We speak up too. Sometimes there's been weeks where it's ONLY effing and I will say something along the lines of "I miss our gentle sexy times..." Hubs will take the cue and for the next few times it's all gentle and lovey dovey.

Sometimes he'll say something like, 'I just want to kiss you for a while...' which lets me know he's craving affection and/or more intimacy.

But anyway we do it, it's good.  I have never complained about sex with this man. He rocked my world from day 1. Well, date 4? LOL But he was the first man that could keep up with me, and i was the first woman to want so much from him! One time, while dating, we had sex 5 times in 12 hours. He just grinned saying he's never been able to do that.

Feels good to know there are still 'firsts' to be had


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## AFEH

Being with the same woman for 42 years and never wanting for sex I feel quite an expert on the subject, most especially in long term marriages. One of my love languages is Physical Touch so all that loving and affection was exceptionally important to me. It actually “made me feel loved”.

For it to really work at the deepest levels both spouses must remain physically, emotionally and psychologically attractive to one another in order to be desirable. While there’s attraction and desire “passion” has an opportunity to flourish in many many different ways.

It was never “sex” with me. It was always making love as to whether it’s a quickie or a romantic weekend.


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## Stonewall

sometimes making love and sometimes go at it like animals!


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## Havesomethingtosay

If I called it making love, my wife would start laughing uncontrollably...... No we don't make love or F*%k, we have SEX.....


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## morituri

RDJ said:


> Checked it out, but she was a major turn off for me. You?


Calle Zorro did warn in his email that her delivery may turn some guys off but that her material was spot on when it came to helping men improve their love life with their women. He was right and her work in many ways validates Calle's work as well from a woman's POV. I've also purchased Otto Collins book 'Light her up' which also follows the same principles as Zorro's and Bratton's. There so much good stuff from them and others that sometimes I feel like a kid inside a candy store.


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## RDJ

My wife and I will be married 32 years next month. I will have to say that we have been all over the board in the sex department.

Wild, crazy,many times per week. Boreing, passionless, not enjoyabele. And even sexless for long periods of time.

It seems that we have settled for once or twice a week. One good one, and usually one mutually agreed upon quickie.

As has been said, we learned to talk about it. We are open to more or less as long as we are both feeling fulfilled in the rest of our "love languages".

Whatever works, I guess?

The point I was making is that a man does not want to neglect his womans needs by being a selfish lover. If your sex life is on the rocks, this could be one of many things to consider.

Thanks for all your replies.


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## Halien

Havesomethingtosay said:


> If I called it making love, my wife would start laughing uncontrollably...... No we don't make love or F*%k, we have SEX.....


That's interesting. People definately have their own preconceived ideas of what it is supposed to be called. In the past, my wife would say that sex is what you do with your mistress, or if you are describing it clinically, as in a group exchange like this. If I called it sex, she would feel insulted. Yet she's not at all opposed to wanting to be taken, or to do the same to me. To her, its all about the idea of viewing sex as an ongoing, never-ending process (which has been pretty strong for about 28 years for us, if you count dating).


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## AFEH

Havesomethingtosay said:


> If I called it making love, my wife would start laughing uncontrollably...... No we don't make love or F*%k, we have SEX.....


"Sex" for me is a one night stand. It's just sex, nothing else. But then I am Mr Romantic lol.


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## Runs like Dog

You use terms I am unfamiliar with what is this love and sex you speak of?


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## daffodilly

that_girl said:


> And she appreciates that.
> 
> A good ****ing is always needed.


Agreed...sometimes a woman's not in the mood for all the bells and whistles...and just wants a quick, frantic lay! Particularly after a bad day!


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## FirstYearDown

In a healthy marriage, there is room for both lovemaking and screwing.

My husband just made love to me this morning. He has healed from the vasectomy, so we had a reunion after what felt like an eternity. It was a banquet to two starving people! 

I planned a seduction tonight, but we couldn't wait. :rofl:


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## RDJ

Runs like Dog said:


> You use terms I am unfamiliar with what is this love and sex you speak of?



Dog,

If there were ever a man that could use some zorro enlightenment, you just may be him?

Link


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## SimplyAmorous

Well I have an interesting take on all of this......

Honest to God, my husband couldn't F**k me if he tried, he is near almost too selfless in bed ...this is very very sweet.... I have always & forever felt overwhelmingly loved, I have never, not even for a second, felt "used" or as an object to him, I can not relate to any woman with this experience......but it is not always all that WILD & Lustfully Passionate either ---though Emotionally passionate....YES ! 

I have had arguments with the man to be MORE SELFISH in bed..what I was looking for was more EROTIC, what I had was all "sensual".... if anything I am the more selfish lover wanting more out of him (more erotic and these types can be demanding at times), but this has tamed down some in the past year. 

Although It may sound like I am complaining.... I really am not. But I do so understand those who want THAT once in a while, I don't see them as bad people, selfish men even, If I did, I am no good either! I think women need to give that to their men -just as I wish my husband could give a taste of that to me. I believe I would have FUN with a raging selfish lover, so long as he wanted the same thing I did....2 of that can burn the house down. 

What I have come to believe in analyzing this issue near to death.... with respects to only having been with 1 man -with nothing to compare but others stories is........ so very much of this is "hormonal" even (typical for me to go here ) ...... that has been my personal experience anyway...

.....the only time I faught with my husband over these things is when I was high high drive and I can understand why men do it to their wives, there is something in them that just wants MORE.... MORE VARIETY.... MORE CREATIVITY.... MORE ENTHUSIAUM....TRYING DIFFERENT POSITIONS..... more WILD SEX.... FAST.... HOT, and "I gotta have it now" crazy ---even though their wives are emotionally connected in every way, they still want MORE somehow........I was there, lived that feeling and it was unrelenting for a time. I cared more about *his lust *over his LOVE..... Yes, I am blaming this all on hormones! 

Yes, we need to reign our hormones in sometimes, I get that too, but they are a hell of alot of FUN when they are raging, even though they caused me some grief. I hope women can understand it is not so easy for the guy here either. I know how hard it was for me! 

But through all of this ...I have come to realize something I am very very thankful for.... even though our sex life would have been the most BORING experience on the face of planet for many couples.....for 19 straight yrs... we only tried 2 positions, I wanted those lights out, under the sheets, we didn't even make any sounds, no toys, we didn't even flirt (we were so damn quiet, sometimes we had sex with our toddlers sleeping inches away from our bed)....amazingly it kept us happy, fullfilled , totally satisfied, neither of us ever complained , or even thought of more variety, we both felt we were exceptional lovers even!! His only complaint was wanting MORE of it, never different or more excitement... and the reason...

...... it was purely making love, our hearts were fully connected to each other, I was lost in his kisses ....very very emotionally satisfying ....to the heights. So yeah, making Love is the ultimate, it is one thing that will never grow old or a couple can ever get enough of , you will want to keep revisiting it over & over & over & over again. 
...
I beat myself up for us having such a boring sex life back then, but now I have to remind myself what we had all along.... that somehow I was not giving us credit for....I smile about it now. 

My husband won't even call it "sex", I can't get him to say that, how silly it is but that is his Heart in the matter.


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## I Know

RDJ said:


> For some women sex can become just another one of the many chores that have to be completed in order to keep the household happy. In some cases, a woman may find it much simpler to just quickly take care of her and avoid the time and effort of sex completely, especially if she has a husband that is only concerned about pleasing himself.
> 
> It is my opinion that when it comes to sex, a lot of husbands are selfish. They focus too much on how their wife is going to please them, and not about the quality of the shared experience.
> 
> They become so focused on what they are, or are not receiving, that the whole experience starts to feel like an unpleasant obligation to their wife, and most likely, IT IS.
> 
> A big key to keeping your married sex life fresh and alive is to learn how to be a selfless lover.
> 
> Selfless is when you focus on sharing your love and passion with your wife, without regard of what YOU are getting out of it.
> 
> It’s when you make love to her in place of having sex with her. It’s when you look deep into her eyes and make love to her body, mind, and soul that she will feel loved in place of sexed.
> 
> When a husband shares himself in this way, sex is no longer “just sex”, it becomes an experience of “love making” that will be more enjoyable for his wife.
> 
> True loving sex is always fun, regardless of how many years you may have been together.
> 
> So the next time you find yourself having selfish sex with your wife, STOP. Stop thinking about what you want to get out of this,how she is going to repay you, and think instead about what you can give her.
> 
> Be selfless and give her your heart and soul. If you do this, don’t be surprised when you find your wife initiating a whole lot more “love making” in the future.


I completely disagree. Been married for 25 years. My experience has been that the more assertive and insistent about sex I am, the better the results. 

She MELTS when I dominate and take her. All I have to do is take her by the hand, lead her upstairs and good things happen. She ALWAYS likes and responds to this. 

My wife hated it when I was all concerned about her orgasm, making love, connecting on a deep emotional basis. We do that on a day in day out basis, outside of the bedroom. My wife wants me to be the caveman in the bedroom. My assertiveness is part of what attracted her to me in the first place. 

My wife would prefer massages (I am pretty good at this). It is sensual, just in a different way.


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## Havesomethingtosay

And now I know why I thought for the longest time RDJ was female. All your posts have a female bent to them. You seem way too preoccupied with how women feel and have a very negative outlook on any man who asserts himself in a masculine way.

Just reading the OP and the thread you come off as thinking you are superior to most males because you bring a loving soft side to sex with your wife and seem to think you are unique/better in some way.

Yes some men do suck in bed or are very selfish, but the majority are not and women too have a part to play in good sex.


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## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay said:


> You seem way too preoccupied with how women feel and have a very negative outlook on any man who asserts himself in a masculine way.


Really? Can you give me some examples?



> Just reading the OP and the thread you come off as thinking you are superior to most males because you bring a loving soft side to sex with your wife and seem to think you are unique/better in some way.


I'm sorry you feel that way. In all honesty, sounds like your problem, not mine! If you don't like what I have to say, don't read my post's. Thats pretty simple?


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## Havesomethingtosay

RDJ said:


> Really? Can you give me some examples?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry you feel that way. In all honesty, sounds like your problem, not mine! If you don't like what I have to say, don't read my post's. Thats pretty simple?


Not reviewing your 330 posts, just making an observation as to what you've written. 

I guess the question really as why you started this thread? Was it to tell us how o make "LOVE" to our womenfolk or explain how in tune you are to women in general???


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## I Know

RDJ said:


> Really? Can you give me some examples?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry you feel that way. In all honesty, sounds like your problem, not mine! If you don't like what I have to say, don't read my post's. Thats pretty simple?


You are fine RDJ. You have good things to share. Just that your verbiage is not very flattering to men

For some women sex can become just another one of the many chores that have to be completed in order to keep the household happy. In some cases, a woman may find it much simpler to just quickly take care of her and avoid the time and effort of sex completely, especially if she has a husband that is only concerned about pleasing himself.

It is my opinion that when it comes to sex, a lot of husbands are selfish. They focus too much on how their wife is going to please them, and not about the quality of the shared experience.


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## RDJ

I Know said:


> Just that your verbiage is not very flattering to men


To men, or just ones with over inflated egos, I wonder?


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## Runs like Dog

RDJ said:


> Dog,
> 
> If there were ever a man that could use some zorro enlightenment, you just may be him?
> 
> Link


I already have the owner's manual, thanks. The warranty expired a long time ago and the manufacturer stopped making parts or servicing the cars. I was told I'd have make all new parts from scratch and install them myself and possibly even build the tools to make the parts as well. And when all is said and done, even with a frame-off restoration, tear down and rebuild I was told reliability was very poor, could only be driven for very short periods of time very slowly under laboratory conditions and would require something on the order of 3 hrs in the shop for every hour drive time. Operator fatality during normal operations was a non zero probability event. And I had to do it all blindfolded with an angle grinder screaming in my ears.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I'm going to answer for my hubby.

We make love and that's what we call it. It's full of passion and it's wonderful. We take the time to snuggle up afterwards for 20-30 minutes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RDJ

Runs like Dog said:


> I already have the owner's manual, thanks. The warranty expired a long time ago and the manufacturer stopped making parts or servicing the cars. I was told I'd have make all new parts from scratch and install them myself and possibly even build the tools to make the parts as well. And when all is said and done, even with a frame-off restoration, tear down and rebuild I was told reliability was very poor, could only be driven for very short periods of time very slowly under laboratory conditions and would require something on the order of 3 hrs in the shop for every hour drive time. Operator fatality during normal operations was a non zero probability event. And I had to do it all blindfolded with an angle grinder screaming in my ears.


Maybe it's time to consider trading the old jalopy in for a newer model?


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## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Not reviewing your 330 posts, just making an observation as to what you've written.
> 
> I guess the question really as why you started this thread? Was it to tell us how o make "LOVE" to our womenfolk or explain how in tune you are to women in general???


With all due respect, if you desire to exchange observations, it’s my observation that this statement from a “masculine” man would infer that he may be more insecure than he wish's to admit? (is that a feminine trait?) 



Havesomethingtosay said:


> I don't measure success by orgasms (more so intensity and enjoyment), but definitely it is very important to me that my spouse has one and if not, I consider the act for the most part a "failure".


Again, with all due respect, your statements and concerns about me, seem to be contradicting?


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## Enchantment

RDJ said:


> It is my opinion that when it comes to sex, a lot of husbands are selfish. They focus too much on how their wife is going to please them, and not about the quality of the shared experience.
> 
> They become so focused on what they are, or are not receiving, that the whole experience starts to feel like an unpleasant obligation to their wife, and most likely, IT IS.


I think there are a lot of men and women both who are selfish lovers. 

Since you put this in the Men's Clubhouse, I am assuming you are telling men to take heed - and ensure they are not being overly selfish. But they haven't cornered the market on selfishness.



RDJ said:


> A big key to keeping your married sex life fresh and alive is to learn how to be a selfless lover.
> 
> Selfless is when you focus on sharing your love and passion with your wife, without regard of what YOU are getting out of it.


And I think this is true for women as well. As a wife, it has taken me quite a bit of time to learn that the more open and giving I am to HIM, the better it is for the both of us. 

As for whether it is having sex or making love - it varies for us depending on a lot of things. Sometimes it can be fast and furious, sometimes slow and sensual and everything in between. And sometimes, just sometimes - it is actually energizing to your love life to be a wee bit selfish and 'push' a bit for something that you really desire. At least it has been for me.


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## Havesomethingtosay

RDJ said:


> With all due respect, if you desire to exchange observations, it’s my observation that this statement from a “masculine” man would infer that he may be more insecure than he wish's to admit? (is that a feminine trait?)
> 
> 
> 
> Again, with all due respect, your statements and concerns about me, seem to be contradicting?


My concerns about you is that you have posted a number of times (don't ask me for examples), trying to come across as anti-male and accusing men of being the problem when sex is not good. You like to post pretty obvious points as to how to be a good partner thinking most men are too obtuse to know better.

Yep it took a while of reading your posts to actually know you are a male, because you always take (or post) a female point of view.

This thread is a classic example.... How girly is Do you have sex or make love...... C'mon!!!!!!


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Havesomethingtosay said:


> My concerns about you is that you have posted a number of times (don't ask me for examples), trying to come across as anti-male and accusing men of being the problem when sex is not good. You like to post pretty obvious points as to how to be a good partner thinking most men are too obtuse to know better.
> 
> Yep it took a while of reading your posts to actually know you are a male, because you always take (or post) a female point of view.
> 
> This thread is a classic example.... How girly is Do you have sex or make love...... C'mon!!!!!!


need to change your name to:
Havenothingtosay.


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## Conrad

RDJ doesn't need my help.

His posts provide as much insight on this board as anyone's.

He's acutely aware of the fundamental differences between men and women and his posts speak to this in a manner that makes complete sense.

Ignore him and/or dismiss him at your peril.


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## Havesomethingtosay

RDJ said:


> For those of us who have been married many years, sex can begin to lose the novelty and excitement. Even with all the games, toys, and role playing that a couple can incorporate, the sexual experience can start to feel too much like “we’ve been there, done that”.
> 
> First sex can become routine, then it can become boring, and then it can stop altogether. You suddenly find yourself in a “sexless marriage”.
> 
> For some women sex can become just another one of the many chores that have to be completed in order to keep the household happy. In some cases, a woman may find it much simpler to just quickly take care of her and avoid the time and effort of sex completely, especially if she has a husband that is only concerned about pleasing himself.
> 
> *It is my opinion that when it comes to sex, a lot of husbands are selfish. They focus too much on how their wife is going to please them, and not about the quality of the shared experience. *


Exactly what research have you done to tell you that men are selfish lovers?



RDJ said:


> *They become so focused on what they are, or are not receiving, that the whole experience starts to feel like an unpleasant obligation to their wife, and most likely, IT IS.*


Again where have you witnessed it?



RDJ said:


> A big key to keeping your married sex life fresh and alive is to learn how to be a *selfless lover*.


Is this not a two way street, or are women the gatekeepers of sex and only on their terms?



RDJ said:


> *Selfless is when you focus on sharing your love and passion with your wife, without regard of what YOU are getting out of it. *


Again a two way street is it not?



RDJ said:


> It’s when you make love to her in place of having sex with her. It’s when you look deep into her eyes and make love to her body, mind, and soul that she will feel loved in place of sexed.


Ahhh..... My hearts aflutter....



RDJ said:


> When a husband shares himself in this way, sex is no longer “just sex”, it becomes an experience of “love making” that will be more enjoyable for his wife.


How about just having sex and enjoying it instead of it being a big production???? 



RDJ said:


> True loving sex is always fun, regardless of how many years you may have been together.
> 
> *So the next time you find yourself having selfish sex with your wife, STOP. Stop thinking about what you want to get out of this,how she is going to repay you, and think instead about what you can give her.*


Who (and it's only males in your book) exactly is having this selfish sex?



RDJ said:


> Be selfless and give her your heart and soul. If you do this, don’t be surprised when you find your wife initiating a whole lot more “love making” in the future.


Sure..... My wife wouldn't stop laughing.....

I will ignore this tripe at my own peril.....


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## Iwant2bhappy

We use to have just sex (dreaded sex on my part for 19 years). Things have changed dramatically and now it is making love.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Exactly what research have you done to tell you that men are selfish lovers?
> 
> 
> 
> Again where have you witnessed it?
> 
> 
> 
> Is this not a two way street, or are women the gatekeepers of sex and only on their terms?
> 
> 
> 
> Again a two way street is it not?
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh..... My hearts aflutter....
> 
> 
> 
> How about just having sex and enjoying it instead of it being a big production????
> 
> 
> 
> Who (and it's only males in your book) exactly is having this selfish sex?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure..... My wife wouldn't stop laughing.....
> 
> I will ignore this tripe at my own peril.....




give it a rest already.
you sound afraid to let a little 'feminine' come out in you?
to damn macho for that?
i know, thats just not the 'manly' thing to do.
youre boring already :sleeping:


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## Conrad

Have you always been an angry person?



Havesomethingtosay said:


> Exactly what research have you done to tell you that men are selfish lovers?
> 
> 
> 
> Again where have you witnessed it?
> 
> 
> 
> Is this not a two way street, or are women the gatekeepers of sex and only on their terms?
> 
> 
> 
> Again a two way street is it not?
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh..... My hearts aflutter....
> 
> 
> 
> How about just having sex and enjoying it instead of it being a big production????
> 
> 
> 
> Who (and it's only males in your book) exactly is having this selfish sex?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure..... My wife wouldn't stop laughing.....
> 
> I will ignore this tripe at my own peril.....


----------



## Havesomethingtosay

Conrad said:


> Have you always been an angry person?


No..... I am just pointing out a very anti-male bias in a post by a MALE, who in my opinion seems to think he is superior to many males.


----------



## Conrad

Havesomethingtosay said:


> No..... I am just pointing out a very anti-male bias in a post by a MALE, who in my opinion seems to think he is superior to many males.


I think you assume quite a bit.


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## PBear

I also get the whole "superiority" and feminine thing that HSTS mentions about RDJ, but it's no skin off my nose.

Most often with my GF, it's a good ol' fashioned f*cking. Occasionally slower and more tender, but not often. We've never referred to it as "making love"... Having sex or f*cking. Might have to look into that one day...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Exactly what research have you done to tell you that men are selfish lovers?
> 
> 
> 
> Again where have you witnessed it?
> 
> 
> 
> Is this not a two way street, or are women the gatekeepers of sex and only on their terms?
> 
> 
> 
> Again a two way street is it not?
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh..... My hearts aflutter....
> 
> 
> 
> How about just having sex and enjoying it instead of it being a big production????
> 
> 
> 
> Who (and it's only males in your book) exactly is having this selfish sex?
> 
> 
> 
> Sure..... My wife wouldn't stop laughing.....
> 
> I will ignore this tripe at my own peril.....


Seems like an angry man reply to me, another sign of inflated ego and insecurity? 

Not to worry, the ladies love this!


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## Havesomethingtosay

Conrad said:


> I think you assume quite a bit.


No, what I read is a person in a very good marriage (and I'm happy for him) sermonizing males with a holier then thou attitude.

What he wrote was bunk in my my view and condescending to many males here, especially those wiring and posting about "sexless" marriages (not me).

Btw PBear, thanks for "getting it"...... No skin off my nose, I just wanted to point it out.


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## Havesomethingtosay

RDJ said:


> Seems like an angry man reply to me, another sign of inflated ego and insecurity?
> 
> Not to worry, the *ladies love this*!


Well now I get it..... It's all about getting the ladies.....


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## RDJ

PBear said:


> I also get the whole "superiority" and feminine thing that HSTS mentions about RDJ, but it's no skin off my nose.
> 
> Most often with my GF, it's a good ol' fashioned f*cking. Occasionally slower and more tender, but not often. We've never referred to it as "making love"... Having sex or f*cking. Might have to look into that one day...
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are not the kind of guy I mentioned. Then there is nothing to worry about is there?


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## Conrad

Havesomethingtosay said:


> No, what I read is a person in a very good marriage (and I'm happy for him) sermonizing males with a holier then thou attitude.
> 
> What he wrote was bunk in my my view and condescending to many males here, especially those wiring and posting about "sexless" marriages (not me).
> 
> Btw PBear, thanks for "getting it"...... No skin off my nose, I just wanted to point it out.


What I see is someone who has "been there" "done that" with just about every kind of pathology imaginable.

Those of us married to broken people have much to learn about what will work - and what will not - when it comes to relationships.

RDJ is a godsend.


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## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Well now I get it..... It's all about getting the ladies.....


No, it's about having a MUTUALY happy marriage.

Mine is just fine!

Again, if you don't like what I have to say, don't read my post.

I doubt I will lose any sleep over it.


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## MEM2020

It isn't about whether you make love/have sex/or fvck like crazy folk.

It is about whether you are really focused on making sure that it is good for her.  That might mean being really rough and dominant, or slow and gentle - which might vary based on HER cycle. If overall she really likes it - and knows you are more focused on her than you - you are there. Same thing in reverse. She should be making you feel like you are her only focus. 




RDJ said:


> No, it's about having a MUTUALY happy marriage.
> 
> Mine is just fine!
> 
> Again, if you don't like what I have to say, don't read my post.
> 
> I doubt I will lose any sleep over it.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane

Conrad said:


> RDJ doesn't need my help.
> 
> His posts provide as much insight on this board as anyone's.
> 
> He's acutely aware of the fundamental differences between men and women and his posts speak to this in a manner that makes complete sense.
> 
> Ignore him and/or dismiss him at your peril.


I agree. I've picked holes in RDJ's delivery (I don't think he always helps himself to reach his audience as a result), and in some of his posts that he has missed / ignored other, equally fundamental, equally important issues.

But his insight is very, very clever, and his analysis is clever. Like the man says,

"..._Ignore him and/or dismiss him at your peril_..."


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## Sawney Beane

MEM11363 said:


> It isn't about whether you make love/have sex/or fvck like crazy folk.
> 
> It is about whether you are really focused on making sure that it is good for her. That might mean being really rough and dominant, or slow and gentle - which might vary based on HER cycle. If overall she really likes it - and knows you are more focused on her than you - you are there. Same thing in reverse. She should be making you feel like you are her only focus.
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The definition of "having sex" and / or "making love" is subject to change without notice! It's up to all concerned to be able to react accordingly!


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## Kobo

I love when people use vague terms like "making love". What does that mean? Is it different in every relationship? Find out what your wife enjoys and provide that. Some wives only want to be taken hard. Some don't enjoy it at all. If a man and women enjoy having rough sex more frequently than not then is that their form of "making love".


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## Kobo

Sawney Beane said:


> The definition of "having sex" and / or "making love" is subject to change without notice! It's up to all concerned to be able to react accordingly!


You beat me to it. Should have read the entire last page before I posted.


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## AFEH

It’s very simple. The term “making love” embraces every type of sexual interaction with your wife. It’s “Sex with love”, that deep emotional connection no matter what type of sex it is.

“Sex” on the other hand is sex with a woman you have no emotional connection with. Like a one night stand, sex without love.

Of course if you want to role play a one night stand or anything else with your wife then great but to me it’s still making love because of the deep emotional connection.

For me at least sex and making love are exceedingly different.


I often wonder about this. I was with my wife from when she was sixteen for 40 odd years and always desired her. That love, that emotional connection was always there and she never turned me down. I just don't get the sex problems men get here on TAM.


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## Halien

Havesomethingtosay said:


> No..... I am just pointing out a very anti-male bias in a post by a MALE, who in my opinion seems to think he is superior to many males.


Words may be powerful, but they don't carry feelings of superiority. Tone can be carried through declarative statements, but to equate this to superiority, without the author saying, "I am better than you" suggests subjective translation by the reader. Maybe RDJ can put a paragraph of legal sounding disclaimers, but it would be easier to ignore his fine posts if they offend.


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## Havesomethingtosay

Halien said:


> Words may be powerful, but they don't carry feelings of superiority. Tone can be carried through declarative statements, but to equate this to superiority, without the author saying, "I am better than you" suggests subjective translation by the reader. Maybe RDJ can put a paragraph of legal sounding disclaimers, but it would be easier to ignore his fine posts if they offend.


Boy does RDJ have a cheering section...... I read his thread and found it condescending and very negative in laying all blame at males and accusing us of being selfish, indifferent lovers and partners. 

RDJ has not answered my questions as to his OP (post 42) and where he came up with these insights or his research. From what I can tell reading his other posts he has/had a troubled marriage with a spouse who has/had a drinking problem and now things have much improved and now is the self-help guru and savant for men with marriage problems. Good for him. 

I do however have an opinion (like you, RDJ and others) and find his sermonizing and this thread laid all blame on males and insufferable.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

i really doubt he is placing all blame on m,en, thats ridiculous.
its just a place for men to look as it helped him. youre really trying to over think this to save your masculinity.


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## greenpearl

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Boy does RDJ have a cheering section...... I read his thread and found it condescending and very negative in laying all blame at males and accusing us of being selfish, indifferent lovers and partners.
> 
> RDJ has not answered my questions as to his OP and where he came up with these insights or his research. From what I can tell reading his other posts he has/had a troubled marriage with a spouse who has/had a drinking problem and now things have much improved and now is the self-help guru and savant for men with marriage problems. Good for him.
> 
> I do however have an opinion (like you, RDJ and others) and find his sermonizing and this thread laid all blame on males and insufferable.


He writes from his experience. He is trying to help men to understand themselves. 

I have been called a woman hater by members from this forum because I write from a woman's point of view, I see a lot of women are destroying their marriages and lives without even knowing it. 

I don't post often now because there are a lot of people who are like you, it's discouraging. Instead of reading the posts objectively, instead of asking yourself if you are making the mistakes he mentioned in his post, you doubt and mock.

We have to admit a lot of men are selfish and they only care about their needs been met or not, of course we have to agree there are also a lot of women are the same. Just ask yourself, are you one of these selfish people or not, if you are not, congratulate yourself and be happy for yourself.


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## Havesomethingtosay

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> i really doubt he is placing all blame on m,en, thats ridiculous.
> its just a place for men to look as it helped him. youre really trying to over think this to save your masculinity.


No he is not blaming all men, just saying that the fault is laid primarily on the male when it comes to a lack of sex in a marriage/partnership. Read the OP, all the responsibility and problems is the male's.


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## Kobo

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Boy does RDJ have a cheering section...... I read his thread and found it condescending and very negative in laying all blame at males and accusing us of being selfish, indifferent lovers and partners.
> 
> RDJ has not answered my questions as to his OP and where he came up with these insights or his research. From what I can tell reading his other posts he has/had a troubled marriage with a spouse who has/had a drinking problem and now things have much improved and now is the self-help guru and savant for men with marriage problems. Good for him.
> 
> I do however have an opinion (like you, RDJ and others) and find his sermonizing and this thread laid all blame on males and insufferable.



You may feel this way is because RDJ gives his opinion in a way that comes accross as if it is fact a lot of times. The posts I have read from him generally read like "if you do A then B will happen". In fact I think I posted in one of his earlier threads that trying to understand your woman is hard enough much less trying to make statements or claims on all women. His threads also have a heavy feminine lean so that's going to turn off some men like myself. No biggie he's just like the rest of us trying to communicate and have discussions.


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## Havesomethingtosay

Kobo said:


> You may feel this way is because RDJ gives his opinion in a way that comes accross as if it is fact a lot of times. The posts I have read from him generally read like "if you do A then B will happen". In fact I think I posted in one of his earlier threads that trying to understand your woman is hard enough much less trying to make statements or claims on all women. His threads also have a heavy feminine lean so that's going to turn off some men like myself. No biggie he's just like the rest of us trying to communicate and have discussions.


Thank you..... We are having a discussion, but there seems to be some piling on going here as I have called him on it. RDJ then has responded to me calling me names, questioning my character, being very condescending and refusing to address my questions to his original post as to where his opinions were formed and asking frther insight in to some of his anti-male comments.

Yes some males are bad partners, selfish in bed, don't read signals and are not supportive. RDJ in his posts comes off sounding that all men having trouble particularly in terms of a lack of sex are those things.


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## RDJ

I’m fully aware that there are times when a woman may just want to get “ fvcked”, works for me.

Just keep in mind that there just as many times when a woman may just “fvck” because she wants “nothing more from her man”.

This board tells the story quite often. You may be just “fvcking your wife while she is face booking and/or “making love” to the guy at work because her man does not have a clue how to meet her emotional needs.

Thanks for your comments.


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## Havesomethingtosay

RDJ said:


> I’m fully aware that there are times when a woman may just want to get “ fvcked”, works for me.
> 
> *Just keep in mind that there just as many times when a woman may just “fvck” because she wants “nothing more from her man”.*
> 
> *This board tells the story quite often. You may be just “fvcking your wife while she is face booking and/or “making love” to the guy at work because her man does not have a clue how to meet her emotional needs.*
> 
> Thanks for your comments.


And again a condescending, bitter, nasty response to someone who did not support his OP 100%.


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## Acorn

Havesomethingtosay said:


> No he is not blaming all men, just saying that the fault is laid primarily on the male when it comes to a lack of sex in a marriage/partnership. Read the OP, all the responsibility and problems is the male's.


What I got from his post is that he shared his opinion that some husbands are selfish. He tried to back up his opinion. 

I did not see any fault being assigned and I do not think he shared any of his opinions about wives. If you are really dying to hear his opinions about what flaws wives have in his opinion, why not just ask him? I get the impression RDJ likes to post so I'd imagine he'd at least consider it.


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## morituri

RDJ said:


> This board tells the story quite often. You may be just “fvcking your wife while she is face booking and/or “making love” to the guy at work because you don’t have a clue how to meet her emotional needs.


:iagree:

Time and again, especially in the 'Coping with infidelity' forum, I read story after story of men who say "My wife is having an affair. But we have sex very often before she had the affair".

The problem is that many husbands have the false belief that just because their wives are putting out that they are emotionally bonded with them when in reality they may be simply performing another chore that is expected of them.

How passionate is the wife in having sex with her husband? A husband who simply cares about the sex itself and ignores his wife's involvement while she's having sex with him, may be asking for a world of pain and hurt later on.


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## Deejo

I'm an angry male. 

Cut the sh!t.

I like f*cking.

I like making love.

I had to *learn* to be selfish, and taking what I want after my last 2 long term relationships cratered after delicately treading around the periphery of washing over the gentle female soul with love, caring and compassion.

Little point in arguing over two points that are both correct.


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## AFEH

I’m of the opinion that some men think on sex in marriage as being the same as what they see in porn movies. That’s their baseline sort of thing. Same goes for some women as well. Especially the way some of them have spoken about it here. “It’s just sex!!!”. And they keep on insisting on that point of view as though they know no other.


I think in many cases sex itself has been devalued beyond belief. Just been hearing about a seventeen year old girl who doesn’t know how many boys she’s had sex with over the past 12 months, she thinks it’s 15 to 20. I’ve also been watching programs about school children and sex. Now sex even for the under sixteen’s is expected on the first “date” and girls are feeling out of it, not one of the clan, if they don’t “give out”.


Not only has sex been devalued it’s also been desensitised by the use of porn. Men, even very young men are struggling to have sex with a real woman.


As I say I speak from an exceedingly different perspective to many here. I have the perspective of fifty years, I lived through it all. There was no porn in my young life, just the magazines on the top shelf. Sex in schools hardly ever happened because the young girls actually valued what they had. If a girl did give out then she was well known and treated cruelly and called the town bike.




It is so very different these days and I fear much has been lost. In England we have the second highest percentage of unmarried mothers in the world. Second behind the States. Something is exceedingly wrong in all of this and it’s to do with the parents and schools. We’ve a Member of Parliament trying to change things with a Private Bill in the House of Commons.

When she’s sat in on sex lessons in schools she’s been amazed that pupils are taught the mechanics but absolutely none of the relationship and emotional issues associated with sex. There are no teachings of virtues, conscience or morality. She asked one teacher why on earth don’t you teach that it’s actually illegal, against the law of the land to have sex when under sixteen years of age. He’s reply was that he gets an hours training in the topic and how to teach it. Legalities aren’t a part of the training.


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## Tall Average Guy

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Thank you..... We are having a discussion, but there seems to be some piling on going here as I have called him on it. RDJ then has responded to me calling me names, questioning my character, being very condescending and refusing to address my questions to his original post as to where his opinions were formed and asking frther insight in to some of his anti-male comments.
> 
> Yes some males are bad partners, selfish in bed, don't read signals and are not supportive. RDJ in his posts comes off sounding that all men having trouble particularly in terms of a lack of sex are those things.


I will also note that RDJ typically (though not always) posts these in the Men's forum. I take this as advice to men on what we can do that might improve our marriage and our sex life. Telling men about the changes their wives could be doing is not terribly helpful. Telling men about the changes we can make is, as the only thing that we can change is ourselves.

I will agree that there issues with how RDJ phrases certain statements, but there is often a lot of wisdom. If his advice is not applicable to your situation, that is fine. I do expect that it will be useful for a lot of others. I am not willing to throw it all out because I disagree with how he wrote certain sentences.


----------



## RDJ

I have expressed before that I am no more than an average guy. I’m not a counselor, I’m not a writer.

I have experienced a lot of things in my 32 years of marriage. I have made a lot of mistakes, as has my wife.

I post here to share my thoughts and experiences in hopes that someone may be able to avoid some of the mistakes I have made.

Do I write things in a way that cannot be picked apart? 

No, I don’t have that skill. I try to express a message. 

If you can use it, great! If not, that’s OK too.

Again, Thanks for the replies and support.

My apologies if I offended anyone.


----------



## Havesomethingtosay

RDJ said:


> I have expressed before that I am no more than an average guy. I’m not a counselor, I’m not a writer.
> 
> I have experienced a lot of things in my 32 years of marriage. I have made a lot of mistakes, as has my wife.
> 
> I post here to share my thoughts and experiences in hopes that someone may be able to avoid some of the mistakes I have made.
> 
> Do I write things in a way that cannot be picked apart?
> 
> No, I don’t have that skill. I try to express a message.
> 
> If you can use it, great! If not, that’s OK too.
> 
> Again, Thanks for the replies and support.
> 
> My apologies if I offended anyone.


You offend me with the way you respond to anyone who questions your posts and refuse to answer the comments made. You seem very bitter (same can be said of me) when you do not get 100% support and then attack them

But you seem to have a # of disciples ready to jump to your defense. I asked you to answer/clarify a # of points (#42) and chose to ridicule it. That tells me I need to know about you.


----------



## Halien

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Boy does RDJ have a cheering section...... I read his thread and found it condescending and very negative in laying all blame at males and accusing us of being selfish, indifferent lovers and partners.
> 
> RDJ has not answered my questions as to his OP (post 42) and where he came up with these insights or his research. From what I can tell reading his other posts he has/had a troubled marriage with a spouse who has/had a drinking problem and now things have much improved and now is the self-help guru and savant for men with marriage problems. Good for him.
> 
> I do however have an opinion (like you, RDJ and others) and find his sermonizing and this thread laid all blame on males and insufferable.


You missed the point. I said that when a responder adds complex motives to a post where no motives are declared, it probably describes more about the responder than anything. Some people read a post and take it with a grain of salt. Some see that it may fit in certain situations, so they respond with clarifications. Others... well, they create motives for the person who posted the thread.


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## Conrad

Disciple #13 - Conrad

Even 30 pieces of silver wouldn't get me to betray RDJ!


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## Tall Average Guy

Havesomethingtosay said:


> You offend me with the way you respond to anyone who questions your posts and refuse to answer the comments made. You seem very bitter (same can be said of me) when you do not get 100% support and then attack them
> 
> But you seem to have a # of disciples ready to jump to your defense. I asked you to answer/clarify a # of points (#42) and chose to ridicule it. That tells me I need to know about you.


So you insult/ridicule those that find benefit in his posts? I fail to see how that will sway anyone to your point of view.

As I see it, you can chose to stop at the tone or sermonizing, or read on to see if the advice has any merit for your personal situation. It is up to you.


----------



## Havesomethingtosay

Tall Average Guy said:


> So you insult/ridicule those that find benefit in his posts? I fail to see how that will sway anyone to your point of view.
> 
> As I see it, you can chose to stop at the tone or sermonizing, or read on to see if the advice has any merit for your personal situation. It is up to you.


Where have I insulted anyone who has found benefit in his posts? Find me one in this thread (outside referring to some as disciples). RDJ has insulted and gotten his back up to anyone who questions him. I have asked him politely to answer my queries or if he chooses not to, to not ridicule or make nasty posts to those that do say anything against his posts.


----------



## Sawney Beane

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Where have I insulted anyone who has found benefit in his posts? Find me one in this thread (outside referring to some as disciples). RDJ has insulted and gotten his back up to anyone who questions him.


Point of order - I have questioned RDJ, contradicted RDJ and brought the discussion that RDJ has, on occasion, been wrong (usually, it should be said, by omission, not commission). He has never, ever "gotten his back up" with me.


----------



## RDJ

I have apologized for something that I don't believe I have even done.

I'm not sure why you will not let this go? 

That being said, please point out where I have done these things to you?



Havesomethingtosay said:


> RDJ then has responded to me calling me names, questioning my character, being very condescending and refusing to address my questions to his original post.


----------



## Havesomethingtosay

RDJ said:


> I have apologized for something that I don't believe I have even done.
> 
> I'm not sure why you will not let this go?
> 
> That being said, please point out where I have done these things to you?


Posts 30,33,37,49 & 68 all have condescending, negative tones and words. You did not respond to really what were serious questions in post 42 where I bolded what I found to be derogatory and inflammatory statements.

I also agreed with you that there are men that are boors & insensitive when it comes to women & sex, but also made the comment that I believe the majority are not.

I do not think what you wrote is without merit to those that are as you claim by how it is written you feel the vast majority are. 

I just posted saying I do not think that is the case and women too bare a large part of the blame (if there is some to spread) about bad or lack of sex.


----------



## RDJ

Havesomethingtosay,

I appriciate, respect, and value your opinion. I just simply disagree with it.

That being said, as far as I am concerned, our conversation is over.

Respectfully,

RDJ


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## Tall Average Guy

Havesomethingtosay said:


> Where have I insulted anyone who has found benefit in his posts? Find me one in this thread (outside referring to some as disciples). RDJ has insulted and gotten his back up to anyone who questions him. I have asked him politely to answer my queries or if he chooses not to, to not ridicule or make nasty posts to those that do say anything against his posts.


You referred to "disciples" jumping to his defense. I felt this was insulting, as it implied that those of us who did could not think for ourselves. But perhaps I read things into your post that are in fact not there.


----------

