# Don't know why...



## nice777guy

Strange thought - walking into a strip club - a big broken dishwashwer in the main stage - a woman in a flannel shirt and work pants working on the DW as the main entertainment for the evening. Maybe a little butt crack showing. A hundred men, whooping and hollaring - throwing ones on stage - fighting to get closer.

Nope.

Men readily admit that we love feminine women.

Was reading the "do women want a masculine man" thread in the general forum section.

Why can men admit that we want SEXY, but women continue to claim that attraction - a raw attraction to their MAN isn't that important?

Not talking about who you married - that's more of a life choice. You may have made some concessions.

But who you notice when you are walking down the street. Or the co-worker you always find an excuse to talk to.

Why won't they just admit that they have a primal attraction to manly men - an attraction that unknowingly threatens every Nice Guy's marriage?

Seems as natural as admitting that you are attracted to water or oxygen...


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Strange thought - walking into a strip club - a big broken dishwashwer in the main stage - a woman in a flannel shirt and ****ies working on the DW as the main entertainment for the evening. Maybe a little butt crack showing. A hundred men, whooping and hollaring - throwing ones on stage - fighting to get closer.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Men readily admit that we love feminine women.
> 
> Was reading the "do women want a masculine man" thread in the general forum section.
> 
> Why can men admit that we want SEXY, but women continue to claim that attraction - raw attraction - to a MAN isn't that important?
> 
> Not talkgin about who you married - that's more of a life choice. You may have made some concessions.
> 
> But who you notice when you are walking down the street. Or the co-worker you always find an excuse to talk to.
> 
> Why won't they just admit that they have a primal attraction to manly men - an attraction that unknowingly threatens every Nice Guy's marriage?
> 
> Seems as natural as admitting that you are attracted to water or oxygen...


It all comes down to definition. I don't remember arguing whether or not men prefer feminine. The question was whether women preferred masculine and the definition of masculine. I'd say they do. It seems the problem being that men here, on this board, think that you can't be an assertive, strong willed woman and a feminine woman and I disagree. I know I'm comfortable and happy in my femininity, not afraid to use it and very well in touch with what it is. I also know that I'm opinionated and not afraid to share them.


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## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> Strange thought - walking into a strip club - a big broken dishwashwer in the main stage - a woman in a flannel shirt and work pants working on the DW as the main entertainment for the evening. Maybe a little butt crack showing. A hundred men, whooping and hollaring - throwing ones on stage - fighting to get closer.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Men readily admit that we love feminine women.
> 
> Was reading the "do women want a masculine man" thread in the general forum section.
> 
> Why can men admit that we want SEXY, but women continue to claim that attraction - a raw attraction to their MAN isn't that important?
> 
> Not talking about who you married - that's more of a life choice. You may have made some concessions.
> 
> But who you notice when you are walking down the street. Or the co-worker you always find an excuse to talk to.
> 
> Why won't they just admit that they have a primal attraction to manly men - an attraction that unknowingly threatens every Nice Guy's marriage?
> 
> Seems as natural as admitting that you are attracted to water or oxygen...


NG,

That would be far too honest.

The other side might even learn how to play.


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> It seems the problem being that men here, on this board, think that you can't be an assertive, strong willed woman and a feminine woman and I disagree.


I think women can be strong-willed, assertive and feminine.

I think its hard for men to be strong-willed, assertive, and masculine without being called a$$holes.

At least you had a "movement" - the "feminist movement."

We can't exactly march with signs saying "A$$holes Unite!"


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> I think women can be strong-willed, assertive and feminine.
> 
> I think its hard for men to be strong-willed, assertive, and masculine without being called a$$holes.
> 
> At least you had a "movement" - the "feminine movement."
> 
> We can't exactly march with signs saying "A$$holes Unite!"


Point is you didn't need any type of movement besides bowel movements because men made all the rules. I'd say it takes more balls to be feminine than masculine for a man.

I find my husband attractive. I love his ****, his chest and all the things that make him different than me...obviously, but I flat out love the things about him that make him uniquely him.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> I think women can be strong-willed, assertive and feminine.
> 
> I think its hard for men to be strong-willed, assertive, and masculine without being called a$$holes.


I think that one can do strong willed well or badly. Do it well and you are strong willed. Do it badly and you are a jerk or a nag or whatever.




> At least you had a "movement" - the "feminist movement."


Come up with a better phrase and start a movement! You may even win the right to vote. Oh wait. You have that.

What is it you want your movement to achieve?


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## nice777guy

The rules have apparently changed.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> The rules have apparently changed.


Mind if I ask what's eating at you? You seem angrier than usual. I know you pissed in your own Cheerios and I'm assuming that was a mistake and so not a good way to start the day...but what else is up? You OK?


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## nice777guy

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What is it you want your movement to achieve?


For women to be straightforward and honest - even if it isn't PC.

Constitutional ban on fitness testing.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Point is you didn't need any type of movement besides bowel movements because men made all the rules. I'd say it takes more balls to be feminine than masculine for a man.


http://www.animationsforfree.logo4you.co.uk/graphics/baby2.gif


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Mind if I ask what's eating at you? You seem angrier than usual. I know you pissed in your own Cheerios and I'm assuming that was a mistake and so not a good way to start the day...but what else is up? You OK?


Thanks...

Honestly - I think its a wife who has been sick for the better part of a week or more but who can still complain that we haven't been having enough sex. Feels like I can't win.

Both kids have now puked within the last 3 days.

And to see a thread titled "do women want manly men" just strikes a nerve.


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## Mom6547

nice777guy said:


> For women to be straightforward and honest - even if it isn't PC.


So you think *women* are dishonest? I can see then why you have trouble.


> Constitutional ban on fitness testing.


I thought fitness tests were nothing more than your opportunity to show your worth. I guess I still don't get that concept.


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## Trenton

http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa171/lettie12/Angry_man_2.gif

Forgot to quote you Conrad, but figured I'd show you my mental image of you in my mind since you shared the whole pacifier thingy.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Thanks...
> 
> Honestly - I think its a wife who has been sick for the better part of a week or more but who can still complain that we haven't been having enough sex. Feels like I can't win.
> 
> Both kids have now puked within the last 3 days.
> 
> And to see a thread titled "do women want manly men" just strikes a nerve.


It is that time of year when everyone gets sick. My husband is dealing with similar although he was finally back at work Monday after taking a few days off to care for a family that was falling apart with illness and medical and I know he's totally relieved.

Your wife is most likely fitness testing you but it's not enjoyable because maybe she doesn't know what she wants? Sometimes when I'm miserable I act like a biatch. It's really unfair and I always end up having to apologize big time afterwards. Maybe she'll do the same?

Do you think you're happy your wife and you are back together? You seem more stressed, distant and angry. Of course, this is an internet forum analysis so take it with a huge grain of salt.

Sucks. I hope everyone is better for the holiday and you nail your wife under the mistletoe.


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## nice777guy

When I'm sick, i shut myself away in a hole until I feel better again - which is usually fairly soon.

I don't ask why my wife doesn't find me and my pile of snotty kleenexes attractive and claim that she must be losing her mind to not WANT THIS.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> When I'm sick, i shut myself away in a hole until I feel better again - which is usually fairly soon.
> 
> I don't ask why my wife doesn't find me and my pile of snotty kleenexes attractive and claim that she must be losing her mind to not WANT THIS.


Ohhhh...got you but you can't expect her to behave and feel like you do, right? Although I think you can expect her to understand that you'd want her to feel better before having sex with her.


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Although I think you can expect her to understand that you'd want her to feel better before having sex with her.


Yes - one would think so. Or to understand that puking kids also kind of puts me out of the mood.

Has actually been a good day - in some respects.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> Yes - one would think so. Or to understand that puking kids also kind of puts me out of the mood.
> 
> Has actually been a good day - in some respects.


Yes but see my husband is not like you because I'm sick and all three kids are sick. I'm starting to recover and just had minor surgery on top of getting a nasty chest cold, so I'm a really pretty picture in my yoga pants and black t-shirt. My husband was home for 4 days and on three of the four days he managed to come on to me and get down. He seriously said to me..."if you cum, you will feel better." LOL

I don't know why he wanted to. I definitely wouldn't have wanted to if I were him. I wouldn't have complained if he didn't want to, but maybe your wife just wants to feel loved and sexual intimacy is how she reassures herself of your love?


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> Strange thought - walking into a strip club - a big broken dishwashwer in the main stage - a woman in a flannel shirt and work pants working on the DW as the main entertainment for the evening. Maybe a little butt crack showing. A hundred men, whooping and hollaring - throwing ones on stage - fighting to get closer.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Men readily admit that we love feminine women.
> 
> Was reading the "do women want a masculine man" thread in the general forum section.
> 
> Why can men admit that we want SEXY, but women continue to claim that attraction - a raw attraction to their MAN isn't that important?
> 
> Not talking about who you married - that's more of a life choice. You may have made some concessions.
> 
> But who you notice when you are walking down the street. Or the co-worker you always find an excuse to talk to.
> 
> Why won't they just admit that they have a primal attraction to manly men - an attraction that unknowingly threatens every Nice Guy's marriage?
> 
> Seems as natural as admitting that you are attracted to water or oxygen...



You can too can “look the manly man” if indeed that is what you want to look like. Just stand with hands in pockets and thumbs pointing towards balls, head up, back straight and feet slightly apart, confident and relaxed. Then observe the responses you’ll get, from both women and men. Overdone though and it’ll look very unnatural.


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## AFEH

Conrad said:


> NG,
> 
> That would be far too honest.
> 
> The other side might even learn how to play.



They were my thoughts! No way will they let that particular secret out, for multiple reasons.


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## AFEH

nice777guy said:


> I think women can be strong-willed, assertive and feminine.
> 
> I think its hard for men to be strong-willed, assertive, and masculine without being called a$$holes.
> 
> At least you had a "movement" - the "feminist movement."
> 
> We can't exactly march with signs saying "A$$holes Unite!"



The way things are going there will be a masculine movement. Probably out there somewhere already.


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## Trenton

If you keep showing someone something but they refuse to see it, you can't be responsible for their blindness.


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## Conrad

AFEH said:


> The way things are going there will be a masculine movement. Probably out there somewhere already.


Bob,

What do you think the idea of the Caliphate is all about?


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## Affaircare

You know I can't speak for every woman out there, but I think this is the problem. I find attractive what *I* find attractive--not what some magazine tells me is hot, and not what some porn star looks like. 

I've dated a man who was "beautiful" to look at, and I hated it. He has a six-pack and not one hair on his chest, and if I hugged him I was afraid I was going to break him! He had nothing to hug and I dated him because everyone was saying I'd be crazy not to--and I hated it. He was a fine person, don't get me wrong! He's still a friend! But I could not find him "attractive"!!

I am attracted to the King of Queens (Kevin James), Artie on Warehouse 13 (Saul Rubinek), and Stuart Markowitz from LA Law (Michael Tucker). If you ask me, that is a MAN! RAWR! That's a guy you can hug, he has hair on his chest (and probably elsewhere), and that is who I would "look at" walking down the street. But that is not what everyone says is "attractive." 

So that's the issue. I am not attracted to a Playgirl spread, and I don't care how much people tell me that women really are hot for "attractive men" my definition is what I like. Make sense?


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## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> Yes but see my husband is not like you because I'm sick and all three kids are sick. I'm starting to recover and just had minor surgery on top of getting a nasty chest cold, so I'm a really pretty picture in my yoga pants and black t-shirt. My husband was home for 4 days and on three of the four days he managed to come on to me and get down. He seriously said to me..."if you cum, you will feel better." LOL
> 
> I don't know why he wanted to. I definitely wouldn't have wanted to if I were him. I wouldn't have complained if he didn't want to, but maybe your wife just wants to feel loved and sexual intimacy is how she reassures herself of your love?


My practical response is to ask who is taking care of the sick kids.

But being too practical might just be part of my problem.


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## Conrad

nice777guy said:


> My practical response is to ask who is taking care of the sick kids.
> 
> But being too practical might just be part of my problem.


They probably have their ipods in anyway. They won't hear anything.


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## Trenton

nice777guy said:


> My practical response is to ask who is taking care of the sick kids.
> 
> But being too practical might just be part of my problem.


That would be my husband hence he took off Thurs/Fri, got them to the doctor, got meds and took care of them while getting my meds, keeping up the house, etc. There were a few hours over the weekend where all five of us were in our bed watching Elf but kids do go to bed and getting it on doesn't take all day and all night does it?

When my kids are not sick my days are pretty easy since all three are in school, even if the youngest is just in preschool. My workload has been cut to the point where I'm bored and looking for part time work myself.

Your thinking is not practical it's disconcerting. Your wife wants you to make her feel special. The question is why can't you find time to? Why don't you want to? Is it snot? Sick kids? Or just excuses?


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## Trenton

Conrad said:


> They probably have their ipods in anyway. They won't hear anything.


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## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> What do you think the idea of the Caliphate is all about?



Oh I know that place. That’s where the true Feminists should be focusing their attentions. Some have the courage to do it and indeed lost their lives to their cause, most haven’t.

I believe the biggest change in that system will be brought about by … the women actually in that system. Much like the Suffragettes, my particular Feminist heroes. My dad was 5 years old when the women in England got the vote.

But I think the Caliph system wont change for another 200 years or so, if it ever does. Look how long it’s taken the RC Church. Even now in that place priests who support women who want to be a priest and the women themselves are treated the same as paedophiles! And women in the Vatican “country” don’t even have the right to a vote!


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## Therealbrighteyes

AFEH said:


> Oh I know that place. That’s where the true Feminists should be focusing their attentions. Some have the courage to do it and indeed lost their lives to their cause, most haven’t.
> 
> I believe the biggest change in that system will be brought about by … the women actually in that system. Much like the Suffragettes, my particular Feminist heroes. My dad was 5 years old when the women in England got the vote.
> 
> But I think the Caliph system wont change for another 200 years or so, if it ever does. Look how long it’s taken the RC Church. Even now in that place priests who support women who want to be a priest and the women themselves are treated the same as paedophiles! And women in the Vatican “country” don’t even have the right to a vote!


Bob, what to you is a "true feminist"? I am not trying to argue, I am genuinely interested. 
I would consider myself to be a feminist in every sense of the word but somehow the word "feminist" is a bad word to many men. Not sure why.:scratchhead:

Here is what this feminist does: I work fulltime and barring staying at home for 7 years while our boys were young I have worked since I was 14. I bought my own car and learned how to change a flat/replace the oil/filters, when I was dating I paid for half of all dates, I believe in equal pay for the same job done provided it is done the same (if a woman wants to be a firefighter she should darn well be able to carry 70 lbs of gear, just like her male cohort), I believe in the case of divorce 50/50 parenting not the child automatically going to the mother, I believe that all people should be accepted in to higher education because of their merits and merits alone and not because of their genitalia and I believe that spousal abuse goes both ways. That is my feminist belief. I don't want to be treated as higher than in any way, just equal. I pull my fair share and I expect to be treated accordingly.

Am I odd? Perhaps. Most of my friends believe as I do though so I am puzzled why feminism is such a dirty word. What's wrong with it? :scratchhead:


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## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> I don't know why he wanted to. I definitely wouldn't have wanted to if I were him. I wouldn't have complained if he didn't want to, but maybe your wife just wants to feel loved and sexual intimacy is how she reassures herself of your love?


 Even when my husband is sick, I still want to make love. He is always up for it -so long as he can breathe & it's not body aches. He has a sore throat right now. I just told him yesterday I am crazy, who does this, but for me, it is worth getting sick over! I guess I figure I will get it anyway. 

Amazingly, 6 of us came down with the stomach flu, baby was the 1st to throw up --on my husband, here we was kissing & kept at it until I got it, everyone in our house EXCEPT him came down with it within 3 days. He never even got it. 

Sounds like you have a horny wife Nice Guy. Hey, if she is willing to get sick to be with you, Let her get sick! So long as she doesn't blame you aftewards! But she should understand if you are against it, very reasonable request really. 

I guess I am very blessed my husband does not run & hide from me ! He happily allows me to risk giving him a bug and now I am risking getting a painful sore throat just to be with him. Maybe we're both crazy, pretty much nothing stops us !


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## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> Even when my husband is sick, I still want to make love. He is always up for it -so long as he can breathe & it's not body aches. He has a sore throat right now. I just told him yesterday I am crazy, who does this, but for me, it is worth getting sick over! I guess I figure I will get it anyway.
> 
> Amazingly, 6 of us came down with the stomach flu, baby was the 1st to throw up --on my husband, here we was kissing & kept at it until I got it, everyone in our house EXCEPT him came down with it within 3 days. He never even got it.
> 
> Sounds like you have a horny wife Nice Guy. Hey, if she is willing to get sick to be with you, Let her get sick! So long as she doesn't blame you aftewards! But she should understand if you are against it, very reasonable request really.
> 
> I guess I am very blessed my husband does not run & hide from me ! He happily allows me to risk giving him a bug and now I am risking getting a painful sore throat just to be with him. Maybe we're both crazy, pretty much nothing stops us !


I think our husbands are similar here. My husband is the only out of our five that didn't get it either, though it wasn't puking, it knocked the kids down for 3 days. Got to love the stressful week before Christmas.


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## RandomDude

nice777guy said:


> Strange thought - walking into a strip club - a big broken dishwashwer in the main stage - a woman in a flannel shirt and work pants working on the DW as the main entertainment for the evening. Maybe a little butt crack showing. A hundred men, whooping and hollaring - throwing ones on stage - fighting to get closer.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Men readily admit that we love feminine women.
> 
> Was reading the "do women want a masculine man" thread in the general forum section.
> 
> Why can men admit that we want SEXY, but women continue to claim that attraction - a raw attraction to their MAN isn't that important?
> 
> Not talking about who you married - that's more of a life choice. You may have made some concessions.
> 
> But who you notice when you are walking down the street. Or the co-worker you always find an excuse to talk to.
> 
> Why won't they just admit that they have a primal attraction to manly men - an attraction that unknowingly threatens every Nice Guy's marriage?
> 
> Seems as natural as admitting that you are attracted to water or oxygen...


It could be society and political correctness or something really. Most men seem to be taught to be a "gentleman" but it seems this teaching gives off the wrong impression lol.

I've always given off the "bad boy" impression since teens, and found throughout my life fellas who aren't so "rebellious" or "bad boy" in comparison tend to have problems getting their dates. I also found it was always easier for me since it's no problem for a "bad boy" trying to be nice, but for a "nice guy" trying to be bad... :rofl:

Reminds me of how I tried to help one of my mates once years before in seducing a girl he really liked who I also knew, but she seemed to just think of him as "cute" "nice guy" etc etc, so I told him to be more of a player, it was bad, he just didn't have it in him (it's all attitude), and once on MSN when he was talking to her (she already friend-zoned him) I decided to help him out and tell him what to say... in the end I was flirting with my friend and she had NO idea it wasn't him since it was online lol. She also SMSed me and told me she was quite impressed and she had no idea he could even flirt with her lol

I was laughing for days knowing that it was me she was flirting with lol Next time they met however, he screwed everything up! I spent 3 days teaching him everything about attitude but pffft... I facepalmed and then went ok... maybe I can't help him heh


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## AFEH

Brennan said:


> Bob, what to you is a "true feminist"? I am not trying to argue, I am genuinely interested.
> I would consider myself to be a feminist in every sense of the word but somehow the word "feminist" is a bad word to many men. Not sure why.:scratchhead:
> 
> Here is what this feminist does: I work fulltime and barring staying at home for 7 years while our boys were young I have worked since I was 14. I bought my own car and learned how to change a flat/replace the oil/filters, when I was dating I paid for half of all dates, I believe in equal pay for the same job done provided it is done the same (if a woman wants to be a firefighter she should darn well be able to carry 70 lbs of gear, just like her male cohort), I believe in the case of divorce 50/50 parenting not the child automatically going to the mother, I believe that all people should be accepted in to higher education because of their merits and merits alone and not because of their genitalia and I believe that spousal abuse goes both ways. That is my feminist belief. I don't want to be treated as higher than in any way, just equal. I pull my fair share and I expect to be treated accordingly.
> 
> Am I odd? Perhaps. Most of my friends believe as I do though so I am puzzled why feminism is such a dirty word. What's wrong with it? :scratchhead:




Good question. I see three types of feminists.

The first is all the lower case “feminist”. This is the responsible person in a woman. She doesn’t shout her feminism, she just behaves as a responsible feminine woman. That’s my stbx and a very complex woman too.

The second is “Feminist” with a capital F. These are the women who go out in the world and make a difference in the world of women. Women like Emily Davison, the true heroines of the female world. My American friend is a Feminist, I have a lot of time for her. Somewhere in any true Feminist movement there will be men helping, coaching, supporting, encouraging and opening doors to help make things happen for underprivileged and abused women. Why will those men be there? Quite simply because Feminists know and respect the value of both men and women and they know that men are on their side in these issues.

The third type of feminist I see are spelt with all capital letters FEMINISTS. I can’t abide those people. I think of them as couch potatoes or armchair FEMINISTS. They do nothing but constantly ***** and moan about men and make the world a very uncomfortable place to live in for some. They never get off their butt and actually go out and do something to make the world a better place … for women. In fact they have the opposite effect by aggravating the men in the world.


The first two just go about their business and we hear little from them unless we take an active interest. But the one’s us men hear most from are the latter, they’re ALL NOISE and no action. Very big mouths. That’s why Feminism has got such a very bad name in some quarters.

So in their way FEMINISTS are giving the true feminists and Feminists a very bad name indeed to the uninitiated men in the world. FEMINISTS are probably doing a great deal of harm to true women’s movements everywhere.



As long as you do what you enjoy doing it then I think that’s great. But to do something to prove you can do what a man can do I just don’t get the point of it. I really don’t.

Take me, I’m a cake lover and my stbx is a wonderful baker. I’m missing my cakes! I ain’t going start baking cakes to prove I can do what my wife can do. I know men do bake cakes, Deejo being one of them. There’s a baker in the small town near where I live. He supplies his own three cafes plus others and they’re absolutely delicious cakes but it just ain’t me. But for me it would be way too feminine an activity and I’ve learned to love, respect and embrace my masculinity. So I will not compromise what as I see as my particular masculinity just to prove I can do what a woman can do.


My wife even got pissed when I started vacuuming, washing, ironing and cleaning. I even volunteered to help with the spring cleaning and she got pissed with that as well!!!! She had relapsed a bit with some stuff though and it did get her going again lol.


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## Izabella

hi,new here and i hope my being honest doesnt cause people to dislike me.
but i could not be with a man who i was not attacted to physically or sexually no matter how much money they had,exspecially long term.
ive been with my husband almost 18 years and still very much attracted to him in everyway,and as we age and as our looks begin to fade i will still have an attraction to him because im in love with him.
i will also add,and just being honest here,that back in our younger days,that no matter how attracted to him i may have been,if he didnt work or couldnt keep jobs,i would not have stayed with him.
BTW,he was a pizza delivery guy when we first started dating and had other fast food jobs our first couple years together,now he has a very good paying job.but we struggled together to get were we are today.

so for me,back in my teens and very early twentys,it was about physical attraction first more then anything.
if i ever find myself single again,physical attraction will still be something that will be important to me,along with finacial stability.

niceguy,i hope things get better for you


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## RandomDude

Financial stability is something I learnt to be very important - I've heard some stories about men leeching off their wives many times and the stories on this forum don't surprise me.

I also wouldn't want my daughter to bring home a guy with no job in the future


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## Izabella

RandomDude said:


> Financial stability is something I learnt to be very important -
> I also wouldn't want my daughter to bring home a guy with no job in the future


i remember when i was about 17 or 18 and my BF at the time was very good looking but had no job.my dad would come home for lunch break and work and my BF would be with me and my dad would say to me"why doesnt he have a job,you should tell him to look for one"
i paid no mind to it at the time,i was young,i wasnt looking for a husband.

my dad really liked the guy,but couldnt understand why he didnt like working.
years later the guy as far as i know hasnt had a career,just jobs here and there and im sure most lasted a few years at a time.


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## SimplyAmorous

Izabella said:


> hi,new here and i hope my being honest doesnt cause people to dislike me.
> but i could not be with a man who i was not attacted to physically or sexually no matter how much money they had,exspecially long term.
> ive been with my husband almost 18 years and still very much attracted to him in everyway,and as we age and as our looks begin to fade i will still have an attraction to him because im in love with him.
> i will also add,and just being honest here,that back in our younger days,that no matter how attracted to him i may have been,if he didnt work or couldnt keep jobs,i would not have stayed with him.
> BTW,he was a pizza delivery guy when we first started dating and had other fast food jobs our first couple years together,now he has a very good paying job.but we struggled together to get were we are today.
> 
> so for me,back in my teens and very early twentys,it was about physical attraction first more then anything.
> if i ever find myself single again,physical attraction will still be something that will be important to me,along with finacial stability.


Oh Izabella --You sound EXACTLY like me :iagree: It is purely about the attraction for me too. My husband worked for a lousy grocery store for 18 long yrs, the 1st 7 of which we were married - sucky pay but we managed to do alot with it, even saving those struggling years. Now he has a great job. I would also not be with someone who couldn't hold a job or have financial responsibility within him. But what a man makes means little to me -so long as we can live reasonably. I would give up many things to be with a guy I was attracted too. 

I can NEVER in a million years understand why some women will marry a Suger daddy or someone older than them for $$$$. I see ol' Donald Trump has some young thing on his arm, and Paul McCartney (he had a fabulous wife!) . I can see why these men do it but I will never understand how the women do. I would feel so trapped & lusting after younger guys my age, it would not be healthy at all. 

Much rather live in a run down shack with Passion & sexual excitment any day in comarison to a mansion, all the finest clothes , eating out every day, having maids & chauffeurs, etc - & giving up the desirous sexual part of the attraction.

Welcome to the forums Izabella !


----------



## greenpearl

I don't need to be rich, but I don't want to worry about money either.

My husband has to go out and work, he is a man, it is his responsibility to provide for us. 

I can work, I love my job, but money I make is only for us to enjoy a better life style.


----------



## Mom6547

GP I am with you. I wish we did not have to worry about money. We worry all the time. I have to put the kids back in school next year and get a job. I have learned to be very frugal with our money. DH makes decent money. But no one over earns here in VT. 

I really love home schooling the kids. They are learning well. And there are so many positives and so few negatives. I know my daughter will be fine in school, but it will be a rough road for my son.

I don't even know what I want to do for work. I can't go back to software engineering. My skills are stale. And man I hated it.

Wow holy ot vent, batman.


----------



## Izabella

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I wish we did not have to worry about money. We worry all the time. I have to put the kids back in school next year and get a job. I really love home schooling the kids. They are learning well. And there are so many positives and so few negatives. I know my daughter will be fine in school, but it will be a rough road for my son.
> 
> I don't even know what I want to do for work. I can't go back to software engineering. My skills are stale. And man I hated it.
> 
> Wow holy ot vent, batman.


i get were your coming from.

dont know if its possible or not,but have you considered having a home daycare in your home?
its not that hard to get licensed and its good money.
do you have a family room or is your living room big enough to have stuff in there for little ones to play?

i hope its works out for you,i know how you feel.


----------



## Mom6547

Izabella said:


> i get were your coming from.
> 
> dont know if its possible or not,but have you considered having a home daycare in your home?


I did it for a few years. According to the parents, I was very good at it. But I HATED it with every fiber of my being.

First kid arrived at 6:45. Last kid left at 5:45. In that time you can do almost NOTHING that isn't driving the kids from one activity to the next. Cleaning up, meal planning and prep, activity planning and prep, shopping is all done when the kids are gone. You have no family time and no family space in your home.

I was unwise and took whatever families came. I had one family in which the mother was so timid she could not put her children to bed. They literally waited until the kids dropped from exhaustion. They insisted I not LET her nap. How do I stop her from falling asleep in her morning snack every day? I could not wake her up with a crowbar. And when I did, she was a walking zombie. She would stick her fingers in the door hinge THREE AND FOUR TIMES A DAY. She would drop things on herself, spill everything. Oy.

I had another family who did not believe in ANY discipline of any kind. This kid was 4 but the size of a 7yo. He was a train wreck. He actually pushed his cousin off the top of the slide. We were all very, very lucky. She could have been seriously injured or even killed. At a daycare center, there would be someone to shadow the little thug. But there was only me. So he had to shadow ME. What fun for both of us.

Yuck. Can you tell I hated it with all my heart?

In any event, that would not work since it would take my attention away from home schooling and put it to the daycare kids. AND it would require my older kids to hang out with tiddlers and preschoolers all day.




> its not that hard to get licensed and its good money.
> do you have a family room or is your living room big enough to have stuff in there for little ones to play?
> 
> i hope its works out for you,i know how you feel.


Thanks for the thought! We will get there. We always manage somehow. As long as our cars make it another year, we will make it another year. And if not, the kids and I will learn to bicycle very, very well.


----------



## Izabella

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh Izabella --You sound EXACTLY like me :iagree: It is purely about the attraction for me too. My husband worked for a lousy grocery store for 18 long yrs, the 1st 7 of which we were married - sucky pay but we managed to do alot with it, even saving those struggling years. Now he has a great job. I would also not be with someone who couldn't hold a job or have financial responsibility within him. But what a man makes means little to me -so long as we can live reasonably. I would give up many things to be with a guy I was attracted too.
> 
> I can NEVER in a million years understand why some women will marry a Suger daddy or someone older than them for $$$$. I see ol' Donald Trump has some young thing on his arm, and Paul McCartney (he had a fabulous wife!) . I can see why these men do it but I will never understand how the women do. I would feel so trapped & lusting after younger guys my age, it would not be healthy at all.
> 
> Much rather live in a run down shack with Passion & sexual excitment any day in comarison to a mansion, all the finest clothes , eating out every day, having maids & chauffeurs, etc - & giving up the desirous sexual part of the attraction.
> 
> Welcome to the forums Izabella !


thanks for the welcome.
i read a lot of post from you and everyone over the past year and we do have alot in common.

i can also see why the men like the hotties,but will never understand the women who just go for the money:scratchhead:
and it really baffels me to see some women so young having babies by much much older men,old enough to be the childs grandfather.

dont get me wrong,i find older men attractive,but i could not be with one who is as old or older then my dad.JMO


----------



## nice777guy

Trenton said:


> That would be my husband hence he took off Thurs/Fri, got them to the doctor, got meds and took care of them while getting my meds, keeping up the house, etc. There were a few hours over the weekend where all five of us were in our bed watching Elf but kids do go to bed and getting it on doesn't take all day and all night does it?
> 
> When my kids are not sick my days are pretty easy since all three are in school, even if the youngest is just in preschool. My workload has been cut to the point where I'm bored and looking for part time work myself.
> 
> Your thinking is not practical it's disconcerting. Your wife wants you to make her feel special. The question is why can't you find time to? Why don't you want to? Is it snot? Sick kids? Or just excuses?


This morning, someone $hit on my pancakes...

I am honestly having problems finding my wife attractive right now. I think its emotional / mental stuff from the separation / EA's.

Last night we were watching a Sammy Hagar concert on TV and she was talking about how great his brand of tequila is. When we were separated, she was spending time at a bar around the corner from her apartment with some friends who were single. Well - since I've never had it - I'm pretty sure this was some "great tequila" she must have been drinking while we were separated.

She doesn't realize that lamenting about the freedom she had while we were separated bothers me so much.

At some point, **** like this won't sting. But we've really only had about 2 reasonably good months after a really lousy year and a half - so I'm just not quite there yet. Marriage therapy is on the backburner right now because of her moving back home and the Holiday madness.

I'm also planning to talk to my doctor about a sleep study in January. My energy level is very low lately. Fell asleep in church last week - actually fell over sideways and knocked heads with my daughter. Sounds funny - but its very frustrating given that I've started exercising more, drinking less, and I'm not seeing any improvement. Plan to cut down caffeine over the Holidays too. Plus, wife says I snore like a buzz-saw and that she's seen me stop breathing for a few seconds before. My mother had sleep apnea - which always spooked me. How you could STOP BREATHING in your sleep? Sounds crazy.

So - there's a bit of a personal rant.

My wife has agreed to give marriage another shot - so its not like she was out drinking last night or anything. And she might have had some fun while we were apart, but she ultimately chose me I guess. Maybe the answer is to just pick up some of Sammy's Cabo tequila on the way home tonight and try not to be so sensitive.


----------



## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> GP I am with you. I wish we did not have to worry about money. We worry all the time. I have to put the kids back in school next year and get a job. I have learned to be very frugal with our money. DH makes decent money. But no one over earns here in VT.
> 
> I really love home schooling the kids. They are learning well. And there are so many positives and so few negatives. I know my daughter will be fine in school, but it will be a rough road for my son.
> 
> I don't even know what I want to do for work. I can't go back to software engineering. My skills are stale. And man I hated it.
> 
> Wow holy ot vent, batman.


From what I read about American schools, there are a lot of bullies at school. I am concerned. 

I have noticed from my students, if they learn well, they are confident, they are happy in class, they are eager to learn more. If they don't learn well, if they don't understand, they are stressed, they don't want to be in class, then it is even worse for them to catch up. That's why I have to give extra help to students who are slow, I need to help them catch up with the class, I need to make them feel they are improving. Students are like adults in one way, they like to have that successful feeling.  

But I have also noticed the pressure some parents put on their children. I don't give my students much pressure, I just want them to do their best, I give them assignments according to their learning ability. I don't like it when the parents expect too much for their kids. In my opinion, the children are doing a great job, I want their parents to be proud of them instead of asking for a even higher mark.


----------



## Izabella

greenpearl said:


> I don't need to be rich, but I don't want to worry about money either.


:iagree:
im thankful we have a house and can afford our morgage,bills.there are times we get behind also.
my husband figured out a way to get us a $10,000 dollar loan to pay for my moms funeral 2 weeks ago,and we will struggle some,but we will be fine and figure it out some how.
my husband is a great provider and im so thankful for him.
sorry if i got off topic.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> This morning, someone $hit on my pancakes...
> 
> I am honestly having problems finding my wife attractive right now. I think its emotional / mental stuff from the separation / EA's.
> 
> Last night we were watching a Sammy Hagar concert on TV and she was talking about how great his brand of tequila is. When we were separated, she was spending time at a bar around the corner from her apartment with some friends who were single. Well - since I've never had it - I'm pretty sure this was some "great tequila" she must have been drinking while we were separated.
> 
> She doesn't realize that lamenting about the freedom she had while we were separated bothers me so much.
> 
> At some point, **** like this won't sting. But we've really only had about 2 reasonably good months after a really lousy year and a half - so I'm just not quite there yet. Marriage therapy is on the backburner right now because of her moving back home and the Holiday madness.
> 
> I'm also planning to talk to my doctor about a sleep study in January. My energy level is very low lately. Fell asleep in church last week - actually fell over sideways and knocked heads with my daughter. Sounds funny - but its very frustrating given that I've started exercising more, drinking less, and I'm not seeing any improvement. Plan to cut down caffeine over the Holidays too. Plus, wife says I snore like a buzz-saw and that she's seen me stop breathing for a few seconds before. My mother had sleep apnea - which always spooked me. How you could STOP BREATHING in your sleep? Sounds crazy.
> 
> So - there's a bit of a personal rant.
> 
> My wife has agreed to give marriage another shot - so its not like she was out drinking last night or anything. And she might have had some fun while we were apart, but she ultimately chose me I guess. Maybe the answer is to just pick up some of Sammy's Cabo tequila on the way home tonight and try not to be so sensitive.


Save your money NG. Cabo Wabo is awful, IMO.

I am so sorry you are feeling this way. Do you not find her attractive in a physical sense or is it more her actions/thoughtlessness is what is turning you off?


----------



## nice777guy

Brennan said:


> Save your money NG. Cabo Wabo is awful, IMO.
> 
> I am so sorry you are feeling this way. Do you not find her attractive in a physical sense or is it more her actions/thoughtlessness is what is turning you off?


Her being sick really doesn't help. Especially when it was her health problems - fibro/cfs - that seemed to start this "life transition phase" in the first place.

Its definitely more of an emotional spark that's missing right now. Physically everything is just fine.


----------



## greenpearl

Izabella said:


> :iagree:
> im thankful we have a house and can afford our morgage,bills.there are times we get behind also.
> my husband figured out a way to get us a $10,000 dollar loan to pay for my moms funeral 2 weeks ago,and we will struggle some,but we will be fine and figure it out some how.
> my husband is a great provider and im so thankful for him.
> sorry if i got off topic.


From your posts, I know you have a wonderful husband, it tells me you are a happy woman. 


My mother is old too, 77 years old. I love her, I can't talk to her anymore since she can't hear. I miss her, I am far away from her.


----------



## Izabella

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I did it for a few years. According to the parents, I was very good at it. But I HATED it with every fiber of my being.
> 
> First kid arrived at 6:45. Last kid left at 5:45. In that time you can do almost NOTHING that isn't driving the kids from one activity to the next. Cleaning up, meal planning and prep, activity planning and prep, shopping is all done when the kids are gone. You have no family time and no family space in your home.
> 
> I was unwise and took whatever families came. I had one family in which the mother was so timid she could not put her children to bed. They literally waited until the kids dropped from exhaustion. They insisted I not LET her nap. How do I stop her from falling asleep in her morning snack every day? I could not wake her up with a crowbar. And when I did, she was a walking zombie. She would stick her fingers in the door hinge THREE AND FOUR TIMES A DAY. She would drop things on herself, spill everything. Oy.
> 
> I had another family who did not believe in ANY discipline of any kind. This kid was 4 but the size of a 7yo. He was a train wreck. He actually pushed his cousin off the top of the slide. We were all very, very lucky. She could have been seriously injured or even killed. At a daycare center, there would be someone to shadow the little thug. But there was only me. So he had to shadow ME. What fun for both of us.
> 
> Yuck. Can you tell I hated it with all my heart?
> 
> In any event, that would not work since it would take my attention away from home schooling and put it to the daycare kids. AND it would require my older kids to hang out with tiddlers and preschoolers all day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the thought! We will get there. We always manage somehow. As long as our cars make it another year, we will make it another year. And if not, the kids and I will learn to bicycle very, very well.


i will say one thing,if you dont want your child to have a nap,find another daycare:rofl: i need my quite time to mentally prepare for the rest of the day

it seemed like you had a bad time doing daycare,and yes it will take time away from teaching your children.
maybe before or after school care,or part time care with children 3 years and older may be easier,just trying to help you think of stuff.what about cleaning houses or offices in the evenings for a few hours,you can teach your kids during the day and hubby can care for them at night.

again,sorry off topic


----------



## greenpearl

nice777guy said:


> Her being sick really doesn't help. Especially when it was her health problems - fibro/cfs - that seemed to start this "life transition phase" in the first place.
> 
> Its definitely more of an emotional spark that's missing right now. Physically everything is just fine.


Hope girls here can make you feel better! 

Do we help you feel better?


----------



## nice777guy

greenpearl said:


> Hope girls here can make you feel better!
> 
> Do we help you feel better?


I enjoy the conversations - girls and guys - constructive and off-the-wall.


----------



## sisters359

The original question is disingenous. It suggests that women who say they are not attracted to "manly men" are lying. It's just like BBW saying that because women are "naturally submissive," any woman who denies that is denying her true self. So, if I disagree, I'm lying. Sorry, but that's a very lame strategy. There is also the problem of defining "manly men," which others have noted.

Any man who must always be in control of me/the situation, who feels and acts as though he must "dominate" the situation/me, etc., regardless of the particulars, is not "manly." He's an emotionally stunted child in a man's body. He's hiding his fears and anxieties behind "control," and it's not attractive b/c he isn't confident enough to admit mistakes, admit he might be wrong about a situation, admit a *woman* is his EQUAL. 

To me, a "manly man" is both physically and emotionally adult. He is rational and confident AND, b/c of that, he is aware that he is not perfect, that as a rational and confident person he can compromise without losing his manliness, he can accept guidance from *gasp* a female member of the species and still hold onto his testicles.

A *real* manly man has his N.U.Ts., however, which is what a wimpy man does not. A wimpy man is just as stunted in his development, but his anxieties lead him to refuse to accept responsibility for his actions/decisions, therefore he concedes all to his mate and begins to appear as yet another child, b/c he won't take share in the adult duties of the partnership. 

A feminine woman is, unfortuantely, too often described as "submissive" and child-like. She is not accorded status as an equal. She can and should be punished like a child for asserting herself. And, of course, she likes that; it makes her mate more attractive.

This is total and complete bull*hit, of course. These are old stereotypes based on faulty reasoning and a very poor factual understanding about the human species. These "biological" or evolutionary models rely on reasoning back from models of marriage, which is a social institution. There is an assumption that the social institution must somehow be a manifestation of biological imperatives. Nothing could be further from the truth--if that were so, institutions like race-based slavery would not have disappeared--they too were assumed to have some "biological" foundation and enlightened humans realized that was totally untrue.

Here's the scoop: No matter the physcial appearance of a man, no matter how hot I find him, my sexual attraction to him will be killed the moment he tries to use his physical strength or attributes to dominate my free will. I will immediately recognize that he is a scared little boy in man's clothing and I will feel pity, which is a total turn-off. 

I am physically attracted to men with a traditionally "masculine" appearance--some hair, some muscle, etc. I am *not* turned on by the masculine caricature--like body builder musculature. I go for the soccer player physique above all others--a perfect combination of muscle and endurance, in my opinion. 

And just b/c I'm sexually attracted to someone does not mean I want to share my life with them, or give up my free will. If a guy cannot handle a smart, confident, independent woman who has her own non-negotiable, unalterable terms, he's not manly enough for me. 

And because I know some of you are thinking, "but if they both have their NUTs, won't the relationship fail?" Yep, if their NUTs are incompatible. I think our society needs to adapt to that reality rather than pretend that women are somehow supposed to submit just b/c they are women.


----------



## nice777guy

I keep thinking about another picture...

A/C - not married of course (sorry Pete - just hypothetical here) - saddled up to a bar with Kevin James on one side and Brad Pitt on the other - both buying her drinks.

I'm guessing that even though Kevin James was on her list above, that she's going home with Brad...


----------



## Mom6547

Izabella said:


> i will say one thing,if you dont want your child to have a nap,find another daycare:rofl: i need my quite time to mentally prepare for the rest of the day


Quiet time was in the policy manual they signed when the registered their kids. They wanted me to keep her awake during quiet time! I basically said "No."



> it seemed like you had a bad time doing daycare,and yes it will take time away from teaching your children.
> maybe before or after school care,or part time care with children 3 years and older may be easier,just trying to help you think of stuff.


I realize that! And I appreciate it. I have considered after school / holiday / vacation. I may return to that thought. 



> what about cleaning houses or offices in the evenings for a few hours,you can teach your kids during the day and hubby can care for them at night.
> 
> again,sorry off topic


I confess I have avoided the house cleaning for selfish reasons. I already spend a boat load of time cleaning THIS house.

I thought of starting a business of home prepared meals. I figured I would have a set of offerings. People could order on line or phone. I would prepare the meals and freeze them... But I have not gone through the business plan. I don't know if there would be a market for that, what to do for pricing... I cannot even get a Cisco price sheet without them doing their marketing song and dance with me...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

nice777guy said:


> I keep thinking about another picture...
> 
> A/C - not married of course (sorry Pete - just hypothetical here) - saddled up to a bar with Kevin James on one side and Brad Pitt on the other - both buying her drinks.
> 
> I'm guessing that even though Kevin James was on her list above, that she's going home with Brad...


Neither one of them are manly, IMO. A morbidly overweight man who lacks control in his life and a good looking one who shape shifts with every relationship he is in? Nope. Never.


----------



## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I thought of starting a business of home prepared meals. I figured I would have a set of offerings. People could order on line or phone. I would prepare the meals and freeze them... But I have not gone through the business plan. I don't know if there would be a market for that, what to do for pricing... I cannot even get a Cisco price sheet without them doing their marketing song and dance with me...


Good idea!!! 

I am thinking about this idea also, a job when I am not teaching anymore. 

A lot of people don't like to cook now, they don't eat home cooked meals often. If you cook delicious food, and it is healthy, people will love it!

More delicious than restaurant food, healthier, but cheaper! 

My thinking!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

NIce Guy you said >>> "wife says I snore like a buzz-saw and that she's seen me stop breathing for a few seconds before. My mother had sleep apnea - which always spooked me." 

Did you know that sleep apnea can cause a lowering of your Testosterone levels? Sleep Apnea and Low Testosterone Levels 


I have the energy of the energizer bunny but still manage to almost fall asleep in church ! I think many of us do that ! But the sleep apnea should be something looked into.


----------



## greenpearl

sister359,

I consider myself to be feminine. 

I am childish, extremely childish. 

I am submissive to my husband because he is a loving man. I won't be submissive to a man who is a bully. 

My husband and I are equal in our marriage, we respect each other. I respect him, he loves me. 

My husband is not dominant, he is confident! He really knows how to love me and care for me.


----------



## nice777guy

SimplyAmorous said:


> NIce Guy you said >>> "wife says I snore like a buzz-saw and that she's seen me stop breathing for a few seconds before. My mother had sleep apnea - which always spooked me."
> 
> Did you know that sleep apnea can cause a lowering of your Testosterone levels? Sleep Apnea and Low Testosterone Levels
> 
> 
> I have the energy of the energizer bunny but still manage to almost fall asleep in church ! I think many of us do that ! But the sleep apnea should be something looked into.


Yes - this has crossed my mind as well - especially after reading Deejo's recent thread.

Seems like there is always some new theory to explain why men get tired and lose their sex drive. The one constant seems to be MARRIAGE.

Walk through a cemetary and count how many headstones have a husband and wife's name, but the wife is still around.

And falling asleep in church is nothing new. But head butting my daughter - that was different.


----------



## jenaa

sisters359 said:


> The original question is disingenous. It suggests that women who say they are not attracted to "manly men" are lying. It's just like BBW saying that because women are "naturally submissive," any woman who denies that is denying her true self. So, if I disagree, I'm lying. Sorry, but that's a very lame strategy. There is also the problem of defining "manly men," which others have noted.
> 
> Any man who must always be in control of me/the situation, who feels and acts as though he must "dominate" the situation/me, etc., regardless of the particulars, is not "manly." He's an emotionally stunted child in a man's body. He's hiding his fears and anxieties behind "control," and it's not attractive b/c he isn't confident enough to admit mistakes, admit he might be wrong about a situation, admit a *woman* is his EQUAL.
> 
> To me, a "manly man" is both physically and emotionally adult. He is rational and confident AND, b/c of that, he is aware that he is not perfect, that as a rational and confident person he can compromise without losing his manliness, he can accept guidance from *gasp* a female member of the species and still hold onto his testicles.
> 
> A *real* manly man has his N.U.Ts., however, which is what a wimpy man does not. A wimpy man is just as stunted in his development, but his anxieties lead him to refuse to accept responsibility for his actions/decisions, therefore he concedes all to his mate and begins to appear as yet another child, b/c he won't take share in the adult duties of the partnership.
> 
> A feminine woman is, unfortuantely, too often described as "submissive" and child-like. She is not accorded status as an equal. She can and should be punished like a child for asserting herself. And, of course, she likes that; it makes her mate more attractive.
> 
> This is total and complete bull*hit, of course. These are old stereotypes based on faulty reasoning and a very poor factual understanding about the human species. These "biological" or evolutionary models rely on reasoning back from models of marriage, which is a social institution. There is an assumption that the social institution must somehow be a manifestation of biological imperatives. Nothing could be further from the truth--if that were so, institutions like race-based slavery would not have disappeared--they too were assumed to have some "biological" foundation and enlightened humans realized that was totally untrue.
> 
> Here's the scoop: No matter the physcial appearance of a man, no matter how hot I find him, my sexual attraction to him will be killed the moment he tries to use his physical strength or attributes to dominate my free will. I will immediately recognize that he is a scared little boy in man's clothing and I will feel pity, which is a total turn-off.
> 
> I am physically attracted to men with a traditionally "masculine" appearance--some hair, some muscle, etc. I am *not* turned on by the masculine caricature--like body builder musculature. I go for the soccer player physique above all others--a perfect combination of muscle and endurance, in my opinion.
> 
> And just b/c I'm sexually attracted to someone does not mean I want to share my life with them, or give up my free will. If a guy cannot handle a smart, confident, independent woman who has her own non-negotiable, unalterable terms, he's not manly enough for me.
> 
> And because I know some of you are thinking, "but if they both have their NUTs, won't the relationship fail?" Yep, if their NUTs are incompatible. I think our society needs to adapt to that reality rather than pretend that women are somehow supposed to submit just b/c they are women.


Amen, sister. You have a knack for breaking it down...


----------



## Trenton

jenaa said:


> Amen, sister. You have a knack for breaking it down...


She really does. She explains everything perfectly in what you quoted. The truth is all there.


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> GP I am with you. I wish we did not have to worry about money. We worry all the time. I have to put the kids back in school next year and get a job. I have learned to be very frugal with our money. DH makes decent money. But no one over earns here in VT.
> 
> I really love home schooling the kids. They are learning well. And there are so many positives and so few negatives. I know my daughter will be fine in school, but it will be a rough road for my son.
> 
> I don't even know what I want to do for work. I can't go back to software engineering. My skills are stale. And man I hated it.
> 
> Wow holy ot vent, batman.


I'm completely with you. Husband's benefits were just cut in that we now have to pay $700 per month for medical whereas it was only $200. Ouch. My kids are five and up so I'm thinking of going back to work as well. I really, really dislike daycare so I'm thankful that my son will be in Kindergarten next year but hate to put him in full time daycare (he's only in preschool now).

I manage non-profits. It's not very fashionable or high paying but at least I do love it. With college bills on the horizon and so many other things, life is challenging financially to say the least.

Yes, holy ot vent for me too, batman.


----------



## greenpearl

I don't like to mention my problems. 

Now since a lot of you guys brought up money issues, I guess I'll do some venting too. 

$6,000 on a two week trip to Canada to visit a family which I don't feel close anymore, I am not that thrilled. But what can I do? It is my husband's family, he hasn't been home for five years. I'll just put up with it!

We can't go anywhere else, either visiting my family or his family, every trip costs a lot of money, and they take it for granted! 

I really dislike my husband's sister. My mother-in-law insists us visiting their place, it is a four hour drive. ***, I am tired, I have jet lag, I don't want to see her, she annoys me, but what can I do? I have to endure them for ten days, I can't pout. My husband is good at telling me that he doesn't complain when we visit my family, he didn't put up a stinky face when my brother was rude to him. So I'll just endure!


----------



## Mom6547

I have a VERY good record in technical support. It was my first love. For some reason I followed the crowd into engineering. I think I will go back to tech support eventually. But I want to be home when the kids come home from school.

I wonder if I would enjoy construction. It has appeal.


----------



## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I have a VERY good record in technical support. It was my first love. For some reason I followed the crowd into engineering. I think I will go back to tech support eventually. But I want to be home when the kids come home from school.
> 
> I wonder if I would enjoy construction. It has appeal.


Are you good with math and science? My science really sucks! 

I enjoy teaching! 

I am not patient, but kids have taught me to be more patient!  

Still yell and scream sometimes!


----------



## Mom6547

I definitely teach math and science! Math is my favorite subject. And science for elementary age is easy and fun.

I very rarely yell or scream anymore. I had some issues with discipline. Long story short, I did a little self study on various discipline ideas. A few books basically set me on the path to better discipline. I rarely have to raise my voice or deliver consequences anymore. 

In case you are interested

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books

Amazon.com: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (9780380811960): Adele Faber, Elaine Mazlish: Books


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Strange thought - walking into a strip club - a big broken dishwashwer in the main stage - a woman in a flannel shirt and work pants working on the DW as the main entertainment for the evening. Maybe a little butt crack showing. A hundred men, whooping and hollaring - throwing ones on stage - fighting to get closer.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> Men readily admit that we love feminine women.
> 
> Was reading the "do women want a masculine man" thread in the general forum section.
> 
> Why can men admit that we want SEXY, but women continue to claim that attraction - a raw attraction to their MAN isn't that important?
> 
> Not talking about who you married - that's more of a life choice. You may have made some concessions.
> 
> But who you notice when you are walking down the street. Or the co-worker you always find an excuse to talk to.
> 
> Why won't they just admit that they have a primal attraction to manly men - an attraction that unknowingly threatens every Nice Guy's marriage?
> 
> Seems as natural as admitting that you are attracted to water or oxygen...


I'm at the place where I have accepted that there is always going to be a fundamental duality regarding attraction in a Long Term Relationship.

Attraction is key to getting the ball rolling. Maintaining attraction is undoubtedly key in fostering long term intimacy. But, throw children, car, and mortgage payments into the mix and women still want the nurturer and provider. They want the Cad for the roll in the hay, and the Dad to work on the 401K and put the kids through college. They want romance and excitement, and they want stability and reliability. RandomDude summed it up perfectly; They want it all.

And I don't think that's a bad thing.

Conversely ... _They can't have it all ... all the time_. A woman who can accept that simple fact with a smile and humility, but still try nonetheless, I find very attractive. Those that choose to rail and stamp their feet louder in their effort to get it all ... aren't so much for me. 

So how are things going overall NG? Do you feel like there is still a great deal of work to do, or have you guys fallen into a more positive routine with the occasional bump in the road?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
Men want it all too, this trait is not exclusive to women. Men want a hot looking woman who doesn't age, still is firm after a few kids, ready for sex at any moment, works fulltime, takes care of the house, isn't a nag and either comes from money or owns a bar. Simply put, unrealistic.


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Oh I know that place. That’s where the true Feminists should be focusing their attentions. Some have the courage to do it and indeed lost their lives to their cause, most haven’t.
> 
> I believe the biggest change in that system will be brought about by … the women actually in that system. Much like the Suffragettes, my particular Feminist heroes. My dad was 5 years old when the women in England got the vote.
> 
> But I think the Caliph system wont change for another 200 years or so, if it ever does. Look how long it’s taken the RC Church. Even now in that place priests who support women who want to be a priest and the women themselves are treated the same as paedophiles! And women in the Vatican “country” don’t even have the right to a vote!


Brennan,

We're pretty far afield here.

But, I must ask this.

Does it bother you that western feminists are so silent on the mistreatment of their brown-skinned sisters in the 3rd world?

Is the wealth and shakedown potential of the target really the only thing that matters?


----------



## nice777guy

Deejo said:


> So how are things going overall NG? Do you feel like there is still a great deal of work to do, or have you guys fallen into a more positive routine with the occasional bump in the road?


Still a lot of work to do. We need to begin addressing the problems that were there 2+ years ago and that led to this whole mess. But now, on top of those problems, we have a ton of baggage.

Still unpacking things she had at the apartment - and trying to get ready for Christmas.

Been busy and stressful.


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> Men want it all too, this trait is not exclusive to women. Men want a hot looking woman who doesn't age, still is firm after a few kids, ready for sex at any moment, works fulltime, takes care of the house, isn't a nag and either comes from money or owns a bar. Simply put, unrealistic.


Yes. And you guys really need to try harder.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> We're pretty far afield here.
> 
> But, I must ask this.
> 
> Does it bother you that western feminists are so silent on the mistreatment of their brown-skinned sisters in the 3rd world?
> 
> Is the wealth and shakedown potential of the target really the only thing that matters?


What makes you think this is true? I can't think of a statement that's farther from the truth. Seriously.


----------



## Trenton

greenpearl said:


> I don't like to mention my problems.
> 
> Now since a lot of you guys brought up money issues, I guess I'll do some venting too.
> 
> $6,000 on a two week trip to Canada to visit a family which I don't feel close anymore, I am not that thrilled. But what can I do? It is my husband's family, he hasn't been home for five years. I'll just put up with it!
> 
> We can't go anywhere else, either visiting my family or his family, every trip costs a lot of money, and they take it for granted!
> 
> I really dislike my husband's sister. My mother-in-law insists us visiting their place, it is a four hour drive. ***, I am tired, I have jet lag, I don't want to see her, she annoys me, but what can I do? I have to endure them for ten days, I can't pout. My husband is good at telling me that he doesn't complain when we visit my family, he didn't put up a stinky face when my brother was rude to him. So I'll just endure!


Don't get me started on my in-laws 

It's true you are in a position where you do have to put up with it. I hope you can fit in some great couple time and do some things you don't normally so that it is worth it!


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I definitely teach math and science! Math is my favorite subject. And science for elementary age is easy and fun.
> 
> I very rarely yell or scream anymore. I had some issues with discipline. Long story short, I did a little self study on various discipline ideas. A few books basically set me on the path to better discipline. I rarely have to raise my voice or deliver consequences anymore.
> 
> In case you are interested
> 
> Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books
> 
> Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books
> 
> Amazon.com: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (9780380811960): Adele Faber, Elaine Mazlish: Books


hmmmm thanks! Will look into.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
In what way do I need to try harder, my dear?


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> What makes you think this is true? I can't think of a statement that's farther from the truth. Seriously.


Send me links to the press releases and interviews. Especially the ones where they condemn the jihadists and those trying to establish the Caliphate.

I'll wait while the crickets chirp.


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> In what way do I need to try harder, my dear?


The royal you. Wimmin. And I was being sarcastic.

Let's face it, if we all had our ideal ... we'd then wonder if there is a better ideal. Or worse, take our ideal for granted.

I used to say to my ex, "You need to do so desperately little to keep me happy." And she still couldn't do it.

I would have willingly paid all the bills, cooked all the meals, made all of the money and dealt with the issues that she chose to avoid for the remainder of my days, if she could have delivered on the intimacy side - not even at the drop of a hat.

She didn't see it. She couldn't do it.

Kind of like your situation.


----------



## nice777guy

Conrad said:


> Send me links to the press releases and interviews. Especially the ones where they condemn the jihadists and those trying to establish the Caliphate.
> 
> I'll wait while the crickets chirp.


Leaving work now for the Holidays. I'll be at home watching Jungle Book if anybody needs me...


----------



## Deejo

nice777guy said:


> Leaving work now for the Holidays. I'll be at home watching Jungle Book if anybody needs me...



That Baloo ... what an actor.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
Here's my thing though...I don't think men are as uncomplicated as they think. 

And I know you were being sarcastic. I'm awesome and I know you couldn't be referring to me! **winks and slinks away humbly**


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Deejo,
> Here's my thing though...I don't think men are as uncomplicated as they think.


Maybe, but on the whole we are less so. I actually think that some women go looking for complexity where there is none, and that can be downright infuriating.




> And I know you were being sarcastic. I'm awesome and I know you couldn't be referring to me! **winks and slinks away humbly**


Oooo the slinking is good. Like the wink and slink.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
Well I read alot here and I find myself thinking, wow, men are not as easy as they think they are.
I read "she is too clingy/she is too independant, she works and I feel second best/she stays at home and is lazy, she is too fat/she works out too much, she doesn't want sex/she wants too much sex. 
The list goes on and on. It can be maddening to sort out sometimes. 

The slink part was me thinking about the Grinch that Stole Christmas and how he slunk around the tree. That was me exiting the conversation after patting myself on the back. I like the "wink and slink, though. Kind of sounds like a sexual term. Ha ha.


----------



## Conrad

We think we're simple because we don't see everything.


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan that is why I think spending a bunch of time figgerin' on what "men" and "women" want is a waste of time. figure out what HE or SHE wants and needs....


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> We think we're simple because we don't see everything.


Hmmm, as in not observant?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Brennan that is why I think spending a bunch of time figgerin' on what "men" and "women" want is a waste of time. figure out what HE or SHE wants and needs....


Well that seems to change often for me, so I come here for insight.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Hmmm, as in not observant?


I think you'd call it tunnel vision.

When we're riding the motorcycle, my wife thinks about everything. "All over" as she puts it.

What am I thinking about?

1) Comparing the price of gas at the station I see with all the rest I've seen

2) What kind of time are we making to our destination

3) What a magnificent feeling the wind makes as it slams into you carrying all sorts of delicious aromas from restaurants, or even the whiff of roadkill

That's it.

I'm totally immersed in the ride. That's what I'm "doing".


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> I think you'd call it tunnel vision.
> 
> When we're riding the motorcycle, my wife thinks about everything. "All over" as she puts it.
> 
> What am I thinking about?
> 
> 1) Comparing the price of gas at the station I see with all the rest I've seen
> 
> 2) What kind of time are we making to our destination
> 
> 3) What a magnificent feeling the wind makes as it slams into you carrying all sorts of delicious aromas from restaurants, or even the whiff of roadkill
> 
> That's it.
> 
> I'm totally immersed in the ride. That's what I'm "doing".


Interesting. So do you think women look at the broader picture? Not sure.


----------



## michzz

I think men are more focused generally. This is why a lot of women really like learning how to meditate or do yoga. They're not used to the focus until they take up some kind of activity like that.

On the other hand, want multitasking? Ask a woman.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I think that contradicts what Conrad was saying though. He mentioned his X and motorcycle rides and her brain going a mile a minute mentally making a list. Wouldn't that count as focusing?


----------



## AFEH

michzz said:


> I think men are more focused generally. This is why a lot of women really like learning how to meditate or do yoga. They're not used to the focus until they take up some kind of activity like that.
> 
> On the other hand, want multitasking? Ask a woman.



The oh so seemingly random nature of the posts in a thread are an outstanding estimate to that fact lol. It’s singularly the women who take a thread all over the place. Anyone who denies that fact is truly nitpicking. They can’t stay on topic for a second.


----------



## michzz

Brennan said:


> I think that contradicts what Conrad was saying though. He mentioned his X and motorcycle rides and her brain going a mile a minute mentally making a list. Wouldn't that count as focusing?


Nope, the listing is all about things other than the ride. She's not in the moment.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Interesting. So do you think women look at the broader picture? Not sure.


They examine more possibilities and contingencies for any given situation. Some tend towards analysis paralysis.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Send me links to the press releases and interviews. Especially the ones where they condemn the jihadists and those trying to establish the Caliphate.
> 
> I'll wait while the crickets chirp.


First, you need to re-read your initial post because you weren't specific but that is not a problem. Crimes against women because they are women happen everywhere and women and men that work to change this fight against it everywhere. If you have ever worked with an organization that is against the abuse of women I would think you would know this. I'm going to go on about what I know and if you want press releases to back it up you can find them on the websites I list at the end and find them within the sites listed.

You can watch this on TED Zainab Salbi: Women, wartime and the dream of peace | Video on TED.com, this is Zainab Salbi from Women for Women International which has offices in London and DC and does work in:
Afghanistan
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Iraq
Kosovo
Nigeria
Rwanda
Sudan

Other organizations such as Oxfam, Kiva, Doctors without Borders and Vday all work internationally with offices in the United States. All are striving to help women, men and families change the horrible acts of abuse that happen to women with some trying to change the politics behind it.

I am a passionate person when it comes to abuse against any person. I'm the person you will meet that asks you to write a letter to your Senator on the streets of NYC to try to get our government to react to the atrocities of war in Darfur, that works with youth volunteers to collect funds to purchase a car for a family that was flown to the US from a refugee camp where they lived for years before being placed into the poorest areas in the U.S. but without the tools, cultural know how or resources to succeed here. I could go on and on. I think caring for our humanity, for the beauty and vulnerability of women and the inner strength of men who stand by, help and refuse to abuse these women as well is beyond important.

I am a Western woman and I am not alone and it is not just women, it is men as well with my husband being one of these men. There are hundreds of thousands of him and I and there needs to be more. There need to be hundreds of millions.

I'll also add that beyond these large organizations listed below, there are thousands more small organizations doing similar, focused tasks and I know many of the founders of the smaller one's through networking. If you want those and are really interested in getting involved pm me.

Links:
Helping Women War Victims Survive

Our Work | V-Day: A Global Movement to End Violence Against Women and Girls Worldwide.

Doctors Without Borders | MSF USA

Offices | Oxfam International

Kiva - Loans that change lives


----------



## Trenton

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Brennan that is why I think spending a bunch of time figgerin' on what "men" and "women" want is a waste of time. figure out what HE or SHE wants and needs....


Absolutely.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> The oh so seemingly random nature of the posts in a thread are an outstanding estimate to that fact lol. It’s singularly the women who take a thread all over the place. Anyone who denies that fact is truly nitpicking. They can’t stay on topic for a second.


I can't argue on this one as I actually have a hard time staying on topic. Have you noticed this? 

Maybe we find it less frustrating to skip all over the place because we are better multi-taskers to begin with though.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Maybe we find it less frustrating to skip all over the place because we are better multi-taskers to begin with though.


That's spreadin' it a tad thick there, darlin'. 

Personally I like making generalizations about women as a form of multi-tasking. I'm a scumbag. I'm ready to embrace being a scumbag. I want you all. Can't be bothered with the details, just give me the big picture and we'll figure the rest out as we go.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> That's spreadin' it a tad thick there, darlin'.
> 
> Personally I like making generalizations about women as a form of multi-tasking. I'm a scumbag. I'm ready to embrace being a scumbag. I want you all. Can't be bothered with the details, just give me the big picture and we'll figure the rest out as we go.


When a man tells you who he really is, listen to him. 

:rofl: :rofl:

I kid, cookie, I kid.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> First, you need to re-read your initial post because you weren't specific but that is not a problem. Crimes against women because they are women happen everywhere and women and men that work to change this fight against it everywhere. If you have ever worked with an organization that is against the abuse of women I would think you would know this. I'm going to go on about what I know and if you want press releases to back it up you can find them on the websites I list at the end and find them within the sites listed.
> 
> You can watch this on TED Zainab Salbi: Women, wartime and the dream of peace | Video on TED.com, this is Zainab Salbi from Women for Women International which has offices in London and DC and does work in:
> Afghanistan
> Bosnia and Herzegovina
> Democratic Republic of the Congo
> Iraq
> Kosovo
> Nigeria
> Rwanda
> Sudan
> 
> Other organizations such as Oxfam, Kiva, Doctors without Borders and Vday all work internationally with offices in the United States. All are striving to help women, men and families change the horrible acts of abuse that happen to women with some trying to change the politics behind it.
> 
> I am a passionate person when it comes to abuse against any person. I'm the person you will meet that asks you to write a letter to your Senator on the streets of NYC to try to get our government to react to the atrocities of war in Darfur, that works with youth volunteers to collect funds to purchase a car for a family that was flown to the US from a refugee camp where they lived for years before being placed into the poorest areas in the U.S. but without the tools, cultural know how or resources to succeed here. I could go on and on. I think caring for our humanity, for the beauty and vulnerability of women and the inner strength of men who stand by, help and refuse to abuse these women as well is beyond important.
> 
> I am a Western woman and I am not alone and it is not just women, it is men as well with my husband being one of these men. There are hundreds of thousands of him and I and there needs to be more. There need to be hundreds of millions.
> 
> I'll also add that beyond these large organizations listed below, there are thousands more small organizations doing similar, focused tasks and I know many of the founders of the smaller one's through networking. If you want those and are really interested in getting involved pm me.
> 
> Links:
> Helping Women War Victims Survive
> 
> Our Work | V-Day: A Global Movement to End Violence Against Women and Girls Worldwide.
> 
> Doctors Without Borders | MSF USA
> 
> Offices | Oxfam International
> 
> Kiva - Loans that change lives


Thanks for proving my point.

Not a peep from the "leading" organizations that get all worked up when a Republican sticks his tongue in someone's ear in an elevator.

It's all about the race, political party, and the size of the wallet of that particular "perp".

And, when it comes to the jihad? Nothing about the honor killings and family "pride" asserted by these folks.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Thanks for proving my point.
> 
> Not a peep from the "leading" organizations that get all worked up when a Republican sticks his tongue in someone's ear in an elevator.
> 
> It's all about the race, political party, and the size of the wallet of that particular "perp".


I can tell that you didn't take the time to listen to Zainab. You couldn't waste 20 minutes to listen to her but spent the minute it took to complain to me and I know you're wrong. Why complain when you can take action against what it is you complain about? It is a waste of energy and I find it frustrating. There is a time when being right is little solace, Conrad.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> That's spreadin' it a tad thick there, darlin'.
> 
> Personally I like making generalizations about women as a form of multi-tasking. I'm a scumbag. I'm ready to embrace being a scumbag. I want you all. Can't be bothered with the details, just give me the big picture and we'll figure the rest out as we go.


Well, at least you can admit you're a scumbag.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> When a man tells you who he really is, listen to him.
> 
> :rofl: :rofl:
> 
> I kid, cookie, I kid.


Can't believe things have gotten so bad between you and the hubbie. Stinks to read it, sorry you're going through it. If you need a hit woman. I know a good one. heh


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad,
To be fair, your questions was "doesn't it bother you that western feminists seem to care so little about brown skinned 3rd world women". That question/statement alone implies that anybody who is feminist and lives in the West doesn't care about the plight of poorer women. Your question didn't say "doesn't it bother you that western feminist organizations.....". There lies the difference. There are plenty of western organizations that don't seem to care about the plight of poorer countries but I think you would be hard pressed to find a western woman who hasn't had her eyes opened to the horrific oppression and abuses that occur to women around the world and many of us have worked to change that, in our own small way.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> Can't believe things have gotten so bad between you and the hubbie. Stinks to read it, sorry you're going through it. If you need a hit woman. I know a good one. heh


I was pretty emotional last night. It's been rough to say the very least. Soon to happen job loss, two dying parents and hubby and I barely speaking. 
Cannot wait for 2010 to end. 2011 will either bring a calm in my life or a rumbling.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Conrad,
> To be fair, your questions was "doesn't it bother you that western feminists seem to care so little about brown skinned 3rd world women". That question/statement alone implies that anybody who is feminist and lives in the West doesn't care about the plight of poorer women. Your question didn't say "doesn't it bother you that western feminist organizations.....". There lies the difference. There are plenty of western organizations that don't seem to care about the plight of poorer countries but I think you would be hard pressed to find a western woman who hasn't had her eyes opened to the horrific oppression and abuses that occur to women around the world and many of us have worked to change that, in our own small way.


He was wrong on both fronts. There are plenty of western organizations that care. Are there plenty that don't, of course. Organizations have to have focused missions and it's their job to try to accomplish their mission. It'd be foolish to have all western organizations focused on international causes as there are plenty of causes in the west as well.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> I was pretty emotional last night. It's been rough to say the very least. Soon to happen job loss, two dying parents and hubby and I barely speaking.
> Cannot wait for 2010 to end. 2011 will either bring a calm in my life or a rumbling.


I read you. Sucks. Here's to a better new year.


----------



## Affaircare

nice777guy said:


> I keep thinking about another picture...
> 
> A/C - not married of course (sorry Pete - just hypothetical here) - saddled up to a bar with Kevin James on one side and Brad Pitt on the other - both buying her drinks.
> 
> I'm guessing that even though Kevin James was on her list above, that she's going home with Brad...


Nope negatory. Assuming I were single, and assuming both were decent men with a good personality (as in ... all things being equal) Brad is nice to look at and my attraction toward him would be roughly similar to a lovely piece of art. Very lovely...NEXT! But to Kevin James it's more like RAWR and a bit of a smoldery fire. 

This is where I think most men just "miss the mark" about female attraction. You can ask Pete yourself if you'd like--the guys who catch my eye look a little like a dwarf! LOL I like a man I can HUG and possibly wrestle with and not harm him. No "breaking you thus...A-with my knee" and absolutely no blowing away in the wind for me! I like a guy with hair, a guy with a couple grays on his head, and a few years under his belt. And if I were to see naked Brad and naked Kevin James, I'm all about a barrel-chested he man type! 

There is no doubt that Brad is more "pretty" and literally is a work of art--but as an attraction he's useless! Yet I think since many guys go for kind of beauty that is what the market tells us is beautiful, I think many guys think that we women do too...and frankly I sincerely DO NOT.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Trenton said:


> I read you. Sucks. Here's to a better new year.


I jokingly told my friend that I was going to "ring in the New Year with a bang". She took it exactly how I thought she would.

There is partial truth to that desire though. Sad.


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Well, at least you can admit you're a scumbag.


Think I'm actually going to try it on and see how it fits. I don't think in any interaction ever in my life, has someone referred to or described me as a scumbag.

Maybe it's just the thing I need?

Think I'll make Tucker Max my new role model.
I did read "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell"


----------



## Trenton

Affaircare said:


> Nope negatory. Assuming I were single, and assuming both were decent men with a good personality (as in ... all things being equal) Brad is nice to look at and my attraction toward him would be roughly similar to a lovely piece of art. Very lovely...NEXT! But to Kevin James it's more like RAWR and a bit of a smoldery fire.
> 
> This is where I think most men just "miss the mark" about female attraction. You can ask Pete yourself if you'd like--the guys who catch my eye look a little like a dwarf! LOL I like a man I can HUG and possibly wrestle with and not harm him. No "breaking you thus...A-with my knee" and absolutely no blowing away in the wind for me! I like a guy with hair, a guy with a couple grays on his head, and a few years under his belt. And if I were to see naked Brad and naked Kevin James, I'm all about a barrel-chested he man type!
> 
> There is no doubt that Brad is more "pretty" and literally is a work of art--but as an attraction he's useless! Yet I think since many guys go for kind of beauty that is what the market tells us is beautiful, I think many guys think that we women do too...and frankly I sincerely DO NOT.


Funny but I'm attracted to elf looking guys myself. Maybe women really want to be married to different characters from Lord of the Rings.

By the way, wondering where your picture is to go with your post.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Think I'm actually going to try it on and see how it fits. I don't think in any interaction ever in my life, has someone referred to or described me as a scumbag.
> 
> Maybe it's just the thing I need?
> 
> Think I'll make Tucker Max my new role model.
> I did read "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell"


Yeah, you're not really. Well maybe you are I can't be sure but you don't seem to be. I can't imagine anyone wanting to measure up to scum in a bag though so maybe reach a little higher?


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Yeah, you're not really. Well maybe you are I can't be sure but you don't seem to be. I can't imagine anyone wanting to measure up to scum in a bag though so maybe reach a little higher?


When are you gonna put up an avatar showing your t*ts?

(How was that? I'll start in the shallow end. Are you offended or intrigued?)


----------



## Affaircare

> Why can men admit that we want SEXY, but women continue to claim that attraction - *a raw attraction to their MAN isn't that important?*
> 
> Why won't they just admit that they have a primal attraction to manly men - *an attraction that unknowingly threatens every Nice Guy's marriage?*


This is just my guess but I think I get what you mean, NG. We as women do have some draw or pull to a "bad boy" who's tough and rebellious, and that I what might unknowingly threaten a "nice guy" marriage. But here's the way I see it:

I married a guy with the physical attributes that attract me. Yes, I have a giant crush on Jerry Garcia! LOL  So on that level my Dear Hubby catches my eye, and in order to continue doing so he does not need to have ABS OF STEEL or anything--I married what I find smoking hot! 

BUT when we married he was an independent, single father who liked to travel and had some interests and a life of his own. Thankfully many of his interests and my interests coincide and we do those things together--nice. But what happens that can grow "unattractive" if you will is not his physique. It's more like if he were to become utterly Dependent, not really have a life of his own, not really have any interests of his own, and have no real opinions about anything. I am attracted to him physically but on that mental/emotional level I don't want someone who'll give up himself and buckle under to everything--I want an EQUAL and a PARTNER who continues to be himself while I continue to be myself...and then we share. I don't want him to be me and like all the same stuff I do--that's smothery. I don't want him to make me like all the things he does--that's controlling. And neither smothery nor controlling are attractive. 

And yep--you may have the hottest of the hot exterior, but if you have become a cling-on with no spine and no life of your own to pique our interest...then you become unattractive and that DOES threaten a nice guy marriage. 

(See? A woman ON TOPIC!  )


----------



## Affaircare

Trenton said:


> Funny but I'm attracted to elf looking guys myself. Maybe women really want to be married to different characters from Lord of the Rings.


 Let me guess...Legolas. 



> By the way, wondering where your picture is to go with your post.












RAWR!! Some yumminess for the thread!


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> When are you gonna put up an avatar showing your t*ts?
> 
> (How was that? I'll start in the shallow end. Are you offended or intrigued?)


Well, I just thought to myself...ewwwww, typical man but not offended or intrigued it's more like a shrug. Does that work for you?


----------



## Deejo

Affaircare said:


> Let me guess...Legolas.


I was thinking more along the lines of:


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Well, I just thought to myself...ewwwww, typical man but not offended or intrigued it's more like a shrug. Does that work for you?


No? See I suck at this.


----------



## Trenton

Affaircare said:


> Let me guess...Legolas.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RAWR!! Some yumminess for the thread!


If Legolas had dark hair and dark eyes oh yesssss! I love the bow and arrow. haha

You know, if that's your husband in your avi and I'm assuming it is since you're smooching...I see the resemblance between Jerry and him. Good pick!


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> No?


The question mark is intriguing but only because I don't understand you. lol


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I was thinking more along the lines of:


:rofl:

Just watched that this past weekend. Too funny.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> First, you need to re-read your initial post because you weren't specific but that is not a problem. Crimes against women because they are women happen everywhere and women and men that work to change this fight against it everywhere. If you have ever worked with an organization that is against the abuse of women I would think you would know this. I'm going to go on about what I know and if you want press releases to back it up you can find them on the websites I list at the end and find them within the sites listed.
> 
> You can watch this on TED Zainab Salbi: Women, wartime and the dream of peace | Video on TED.com, this is Zainab Salbi from Women for Women International which has offices in London and DC and does work in:
> Afghanistan
> Bosnia and Herzegovina
> Democratic Republic of the Congo
> Iraq
> Kosovo
> Nigeria
> Rwanda
> Sudan
> 
> Other organizations such as Oxfam, Kiva, Doctors without Borders and Vday all work internationally with offices in the United States. All are striving to help women, men and families change the horrible acts of abuse that happen to women with some trying to change the politics behind it.
> 
> I am a passionate person when it comes to abuse against any person. I'm the person you will meet that asks you to write a letter to your Senator on the streets of NYC to try to get our government to react to the atrocities of war in Darfur, that works with youth volunteers to collect funds to purchase a car for a family that was flown to the US from a refugee camp where they lived for years before being placed into the poorest areas in the U.S. but without the tools, cultural know how or resources to succeed here. I could go on and on. I think caring for our humanity, for the beauty and vulnerability of women and the inner strength of men who stand by, help and refuse to abuse these women as well is beyond important.
> 
> I am a Western woman and I am not alone and it is not just women, it is men as well with my husband being one of these men. There are hundreds of thousands of him and I and there needs to be more. There need to be hundreds of millions.
> 
> I'll also add that beyond these large organizations listed below, there are thousands more small organizations doing similar, focused tasks and I know many of the founders of the smaller one's through networking. If you want those and are really interested in getting involved pm me.
> 
> Links:
> Helping Women War Victims Survive
> 
> Our Work | V-Day: A Global Movement to End Violence Against Women and Girls Worldwide.
> 
> Doctors Without Borders | MSF USA
> 
> Offices | Oxfam International
> 
> Kiva - Loans that change lives


Just got a coffee maker from younger son as espresso maker bust a few weeks ago.


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> Just got a coffee maker from younger son as espresso maker bust a few weeks ago.


And which do you like better?


----------



## Deejo

See? We just went from boobs to elves to womens rights to coffee makers and you didn't so much as blink. What the hell is wrong with you?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> When are you gonna put up an avatar showing your t*ts?
> 
> (How was that? I'll start in the shallow end. Are you offended or intrigued?)


Ok, this made me laugh so freaking hard. Last night I caught a glimpse of myself just walking by our family room mirror. I stopped, turned and looked. LOVED the way my boobs looked at that moment and thought, hmmmm, these would make a great picture. Hadn't thought about updating my avie.

:rofl:

And your Tucker Max reference is hilarious although I doubt he is the guy you want to aspire to be. That guy is mocked relentlessly by men and women all over the internet.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> See? We just went from boobs to elves to womens rights to coffee makers and you didn't so much as blink. What the hell is wrong with you?


Hmmmm...you want the short list or the long list? I think, thanks to Bob, I can now sum it up in saying I'm a prick.

Really, I assumed Bob was trying to make a point by talking about coffee. I think he wanted me to see what it feels like to go so far off topic. When I read his thread I thought that or that he was responding to the wrong thread and might have wanted to respond to the thread in which I recently said that I didn't have a dishwasher. Then for a split second I thought he was older and off his rocker. Then I put all this together and decided asking him which he liked better might allow him to respond in a way that would better clue me in to what he was saying since I really didn't know. So that's my thought process. Is there something wrong with it?


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Ok, this made me laugh so freaking hard. Last night I caught a glimpse of myself just walking by our family room mirror. I stopped, turned and looked. LOVED the way my boobs looked at that moment and thought, hmmmm, these would make a great picture. Hadn't thought about updating my avie.
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> And your Tucker Max reference is hilarious although I doubt he is the guy you want to aspire to be. That guy is mocked relentlessly by men and women all over the internet.


I think you should post a new avi minus the boobs. I'm curious to see what you look like.


----------



## Mom6547

I want to see her boobs! Ok I am just kidding.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Well I have already posted some REALLY personal stuff about myself and my past. I don't exactly want people to see me as well. Then again, I've probably said enough so alot of people could figure out my identity.


----------



## Deejo

I accept you for the wonderfully complex, delicate and mesmerizing creature that you are. 

Boob pic please ...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I want to see her boobs! Ok I am just kidding.


I want to see Deejo's boobs. He has talked about his impressive chest before.


----------



## Mom6547

Me too, Brennan. Luckily I have kept the most damning stuff to myself.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

I didn't take the boob pic! I wrote that I THOUGHT that at that moment, it would make a nice picture.


----------



## Mom6547

Brennan said:


> I want to see Deejo's boobs. He has talked about his impressive chest before.


YES!


----------



## Mom6547

I meant I have said enough that someone who knew me could pretty easily identify me.


----------



## Trenton

I know that's your pink shoe vt!


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I accept you for the wonderfully complex, delicate and mesmerizing creature that you are.
> 
> Boob pic please ...


That was passive aggressive scumbagness? I like it better, the boob thought was offset by the complimentary phrase before it.


----------



## Trenton

vt & Brennan that was the most interesting miscommunication ever! :rofl:


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Ok, this made me laugh so freaking hard. Last night I caught a glimpse of myself just walking by our family room mirror. I stopped, turned and looked. LOVED the way my boobs looked at that moment and thought, hmmmm, these would make a great picture. Hadn't thought about updating my avie.
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> And your Tucker Max reference is hilarious although I doubt he is the guy you want to aspire to be. That guy is mocked relentlessly by men and women all over the internet.


Swinging the thread back to on-topic ...

Tucker Max is actually a perfect example of what any of the men here would absolutely be against in terms of behavior, yet he demonstrates a lot of what we talk about.

Dude is definitely dark side of the force kind of bad boy. Friend and I talked about him, and even presuming that more than half of his stuff is utter bullsh!t, I don't doubt for a moment that this guy gets laid ... a lot. His unique skill is to unerringly home in on, and exploit women that are equally if not more damaged than he is.

The guy is who he is ... and he still attracts women. Perhaps for the very reason that he is who he is. I find that scary.


----------



## Trenton

Why is it I don't know who Tucker Max is? Is this a good thing or bad thing? Off to Google.


----------



## Mom6547

Deejo said:


> Swinging the thread back to on-topic ...
> 
> Tucker Max is actually a perfect example of what any of the men here would absolutely be against in terms of behavior, yet he demonstrates a lot of what we talk about.


I don't even know who he is... Just found his website. "My name is Tucker Max, and I am an *******." Ok. 


> Dude is definitely dark side of the force kind of bad boy. Friend and I talked about him, and even presuming that more than half of his stuff is utter bullsh!t, I don't doubt for a moment that this guy gets laid ... a lot. His unique skill is to unerringly home in on, and exploit women that are equally if not more damaged than he is.


Do we like the ability yo hone in on and exploit women? I confess I have not read the entire thread. But that doesn't seem manly. That seems nasty.


> The guy is who he is ... and he still attracts women. Perhaps for the very reason that he is who he is. I find that scary.


Me too.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> He was wrong on both fronts. There are plenty of western organizations that care. Are there plenty that don't, of course. Organizations have to have focused missions and it's their job to try to accomplish their mission. It'd be foolish to have all western organizations focused on international causes as there are plenty of causes in the west as well.


They all focus on the same things when it suits their political agenda.


----------



## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Conrad,
> To be fair, your questions was "doesn't it bother you that western feminists seem to care so little about brown skinned 3rd world women". That question/statement alone implies that anybody who is feminist and lives in the West doesn't care about the plight of poorer women. Your question didn't say "doesn't it bother you that western feminist organizations.....". There lies the difference. There are plenty of western organizations that don't seem to care about the plight of poorer countries but I think you would be hard pressed to find a western woman who hasn't had her eyes opened to the horrific oppression and abuses that occur to women around the world and many of us have worked to change that, in our own small way.



I agree with you.

And, I would certainly re-phrase my question in that manner.

There is a huge resounding silence from the organizations with the largest microphones on these issues.

Yes, much good work may be done by those out of the limelight. But, the organizations with the most clout choose to shake down political opponents - as opposed to addressing the horrible plight of third-world women.

It's a travesty.

If I were identified as a "feminist", I would certainly wish to distance myself from these craven parasites that claim to speak for me.


----------



## Conrad

AFEH said:


> Just got a coffee maker from younger son as espresso maker bust a few weeks ago.


Bob,

Did you prefer the expresso maker?


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> I want to see Deejo's boobs. He has talked about his impressive chest before.


Magnificent, I believe is the word I used ...

My boobs are currently in their holiday lull. Lets wait for round about April, once the testosterone has kicked in. 

For the record, I'm more of an a$$ man where the fairer sex is concerned.

I really don't think I can lend any credibility to the feminist discussion at this point ...


----------



## Mom6547

Winter is not the time for the fantasmic body. I have to drop 5 for the penguin plunge though. Brrrrrr.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo,
Tucker Max doesn't attract women "just being himself". He stops at nothing and I mean nothing to get laid. No means yes to this guy and he has posted before instructing other "men" how to have "game" like him including but not limited to "get her too drunk to know what is happening". How this guy isn't in jail is beyond me.
He is the OPPOSITE of what a real man is. A real man owns himself and his actions. He doesn't need to reduce himself to the level of this idiot to score. A real man doesn't need to prey on women and take her by force, but a rapist does.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> Did you prefer the expresso maker?


Don't know as yet, no coffee!


----------



## Deejo

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Do we like the ability yo hone in on and exploit women?


No. We most definitely do not.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Ok, I will also swing this back on to topic. I have a question for the dudes here. Do men really think that another man getting laid often makes him more of a man? Is that the barometer for which measure up each other? 
For example: My husband had only been with two other women prior to me. I would hazard a guess that other men would think that he isn't a "man" if we are judging based on sexual experiences. But that man has spent 9 years coaching both boys at soccer and has always helped them with homework, helped with the cooking and cleaning, has taught them to be respectful of others yet question when something sounds off and has been rock solid in their lives. I can truly say he is a better parent than I am.
So for the outside world looking in, he probably isn't the "definition" of a man's man or a badass but to my boys, he is THE man. 
Curious to hear from others.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Magnificent, I believe is the word I used ...
> 
> My boobs are currently in their holiday lull. Lets wait for round about April, once the testosterone has kicked in.
> 
> For the record, I'm more of an a$$ man where the fairer sex is concerned.
> 
> I really don't think I can lend any credibility to the feminist discussion at this point ...


Maybe that is where my dating skills were lacking. Should have asked hubby back then "are you a boob man or a butt man". He's a butt man alright! Now, my butt is nice, as I work out but with regard to my boobs I will quote Seinfeld: "They are real and they are spectacular".
**Sigh**


----------



## Affaircare

Brennan said:


> I want to see Deejo's boobs. He has talked about his impressive chest before.


I do NOT want to see man boobs!!! (shiver)


----------



## Affaircare

Trenton said:


> You know, if that's your husband in your avi and I'm assuming it is since you're smooching...I see the resemblance between Jerry and him. Good pick!


THANK YOU!! :smthumbup: :smthumbup: I oh-so-totally agree! :iagree:


----------



## michzz

How'd you guys go from motorcycle rides to man boobs?

I now need some bleach to rinse out my eyes.


----------



## greenpearl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I definitely teach math and science! Math is my favorite subject. And science for elementary age is easy and fun.
> 
> I very rarely yell or scream anymore. I had some issues with discipline. Long story short, I did a little self study on various discipline ideas. A few books basically set me on the path to better discipline. I rarely have to raise my voice or deliver consequences anymore.
> 
> In case you are interested
> 
> Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books
> 
> Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books
> 
> Amazon.com: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (9780380811960): Adele Faber, Elaine Mazlish: Books


I checked the books, now, I have to figure out how to get them. Thanks!


----------



## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Ok, I will also swing this back on to topic. I have a question for the dudes here. Do men really think that another man getting laid often makes him more of a man? Is that the barometer for which measure up each other?


No. It is only a barometer for manliness up until you get married. Then the slate gets wiped clean. Nobody cares. As for young men, absolutely. It is a direct and measurable statistic regarding your success with women. But it's still meaningless. If you are in a LTR in your 20's, odds are, you are getting laid more often than your single buddies.



> For example: My husband had only been with two other women prior to me. I would hazard a guess that other men would think that he isn't a "man" if we are judging based on sexual experiences. But that man has spent 9 years coaching both boys at soccer and has always helped them with homework, helped with the cooking and cleaning, has taught them to be respectful of others yet question when something sounds off and has been rock solid in their lives. I can truly say he is a better parent than I am.
> So for the outside world looking in, he probably isn't the "definition" of a man's man or a badass but to my boys, he is THE man.
> Curious to hear from others.


But if he was with those two women in long relationships, it's a wash. Certainly doesn't matter to me. I never looked at sex as a notch in my man-belt. Your Tucker Max example is appropriate. I'm guessing that guy has had more sex partners than any 5 of the men on this board combined. I do not see him as any kind of role model or hero whatsoever.

He's a bad boy in the classic sense. Self centered, self serving, lay 'em and leav'em type. We all know those guys are out there, and to the Average Joe, the fact that any woman would find that behavior appealing is part of why this forum exists.

I want to be your husband, but not sacrifice my edge in what will keep your attention and attraction on me, instead of the allure of men like Mr. Max or the handyman.

The point of all this is making the personal discovery of what being a man means to each of us. Personally, I hadn't given the notion a great deal of thought prior reading many of the posts here.

On a personal level, if I don't know what my own code as a man is, I can't really expect to convey what is to my partner, unless I'm living it. If I'm comfortable with who I am as a man, you then can either be onboard or not. At least that's the way I see it now.

If I'm speculating that you aren't feeling certain or secure or in your marriage, I don't correlate that as your husband being a pu$$y. But I can all but guarantee you would have a better idea of where your marriage stood, if he were more proactive or certain about how he perceives and conducts himself.

That make sense? The last bit is what many of us, certainly myself, struggled with. Had I had a clearer vision of leading my myself and my marriage instead of chasing my wife wondering if we'll ever have the spark again, our relationship would be different.

That's a testimony, not a lamentation.


----------



## Deejo

NG's initial post indicated a little bit of that frustration I alluded to.

Most of us want to be your husband Brennan, not Tucker friggin Max. All the more reason we can find it intimidating when we discover that our wives who voice appreciation and admiration for our dedication and thoughtfulness, but get all hot and bothered over Colin Farrell and the like.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> No. It is only a barometer for manliness up until you get married. Then the slate gets wiped clean. Nobody cares. As for young men, absolutely. It is a direct and measurable statistic regarding your success with women. But it's still meaningless. If you are in a LTR in your 20's, odds are, you are getting laid more often than your single buddies.
> 
> 
> 
> But if he was with those two women in long relationships, it's a wash. Certainly doesn't matter to me. I never looked at sex as a notch in my man-belt. Your Tucker Max example is appropriate. I'm guessing that guy has had more sex partners than any 5 of the men on this board combined. I do not see him as any kind of role model or hero whatsoever.
> 
> He's a bad boy in the classic sense. Self centered, self serving, lay 'em and leav'em type. We all know those guys are out there, and to the Average Joe, the fact that any woman would find that behavior appealing is part of why this forum exists.
> 
> I want to be your husband, but not sacrifice my edge in what will keep your attention and attraction on me, instead of the allure of men like Mr. Max or the handyman.
> 
> The point of all this is making the personal discovery of what being a man means to each of us. Personally, I hadn't given the notion a great deal of thought prior reading many of the posts here.
> 
> On a personal level, if I don't know what my own code as a man is, I can't really expect to convey what is to my partner, unless I'm living it. If I'm comfortable with who I am as a man, you then can either be onboard or not. At least that's the way I see it now.
> 
> If I'm speculating that you aren't feeling certain or secure or in your marriage, I don't correlate that as your husband being a pu$$y. But I can all but guarantee you would have a better idea of where your marriage stood, if he were more proactive or certain about how he perceives and conducts himself.
> 
> That make sense? The last bit is what many of us, certainly myself, struggled with. Had I had a clearer vision of leading my myself and my marriage instead of chasing my wife wondering if we'll ever have the spark again, our relationship would be different.
> 
> That's a testimony, not a lamentation.


You are a brilliant man Deejo, truly. 

It dawned on me a few days ago what a HUGE part of our marital problems are. His past. 
His first sexual partner was a somewhat friend of his. They were all part of a group. They all hung out together and this girl was part of their group. He liked her as a friend but she liked him way more than that. Still being a virgin at 18, he hated it. She propositioned him and he took her up on the offer. Afterwards, he just up and left. He used her for nothing more than sex. She called him the next day and asked if he wanted to go out with her and he said "no". A few days later, she shows up at his house and asks why is he not talking to her? He said that it was just sex and it didn't mean much to him. She told him that she has always loved him and how could he use her this way if he didn't love her? She cried/bawled and left. He told me that he felt awful for doing that and hurting her that way. I think it really hit him hard.
Fast forward 1 year later and he has a long term girlfriend (8 months). They worked together part time while in college and he liked her but was not in love with her. He refused to have sex with her because in his mind he shouldn't/couldn't have sex unless he was he was in love. They did everything but have sex. She ended up dumping him because of it.
Now? When he feels a "love" disconnect in our marriage or when we are arguing, he can go for days, weeks, months without sex. At one point, it was 4 months. It's like he literally shuts down his sex drive. Doesn't masturbate or anything. So, so, so weird but I think his self induced trauma had a HUGE effect on him. HUGE. 
In essence, he started out as a Tucker Max jerk, using a woman for sex only and realized what his actions had on her. It changed him profoundly and yet now I am paying the price for that.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> They all focus on the same things when it suits their political agenda.


OK, I thought originally you were saying that feminists, as in individuals, only care about their home countries but this seemed to change in your secondary rant.

All institutions need funding to be successful. It is unfortunate but true. The larger the organizations, the larger the backing and like any large business they begin to be pulled in several different directions. It's the catch-22 of non-profits because they need profit to do their work but it's easy to lose sight of the mission if funding becomes the priority and as we see over and over again, money will equal power as well as manipulation by those that provided the money and often times corruption develops.

If you never sell out you will never have the wealth to spread your mission and if you sell out you will lose the control that steers the mission, hence the Catch-22.

I'm an idea to action person. If you have ideas about how to change the laws and cruelty to women in Caliphate societies please share. I would love to take the idea, develop it and find a way to power it into resolution. It is important. Generally those that rise up from places of such repression and cruelty are best suited to try and conquer it and use their passion and raw memories to sway others to act but it's possible to be on the outside, look in, and find a way to try and solve it as well.


----------



## Trenton

Brennan said:


> You are a brilliant man Deejo, truly.
> 
> It dawned on me a few days ago what a HUGE part of our marital problems are. His past.
> His first sexual partner was a somewhat friend of his. They were all part of a group. They all hung out together and this girl was part of their group. He liked her as a friend but she liked him way more than that. Still being a virgin at 18, he hated it. She propositioned him and he took her up on the offer. Afterwards, he just up and left. He used her for nothing more than sex. She called him the next day and asked if he wanted to go out with her and he said "no". A few days later, she shows up at his house and asks why is he not talking to her? He said that it was just sex and it didn't mean much to him. She told him that she has always loved him and how could he use her this way if he didn't love her? She cried/bawled and left. He told me that he felt awful for doing that and hurting her that way. I think it really hit him hard.
> Fast forward 1 year later and he has a long term girlfriend (8 months). They worked together part time while in college and he liked her but was not in love with her. He refused to have sex with her because in his mind he shouldn't/couldn't have sex unless he was he was in love. They did everything but have sex. She ended up dumping him because of it.
> Now? When he feels a "love" disconnect in our marriage or when we are arguing, he can go for days, weeks, months without sex. At one point, it was 4 months. It's like he literally shuts down his sex drive. Doesn't masturbate or anything. So, so, so weird but I think his self induced trauma had a HUGE effect on him. HUGE.
> In essence, he started out as a Tucker Max jerk, using a woman for sex only and realized what his actions had on her. It changed him profoundly and yet now I am paying the price for that.


Are we going to have a TAM love story soon, you two?


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Are we going to have a TAM love story soon, you two?


I was kinda hoping for a TAM love triangle ...




> In essence, he started out as a Tucker Max jerk, using a woman for sex only and realized what his actions had on her. It changed him profoundly and yet now I am paying the price for that.


Now see, this is where the lines start to get fuzzy. I don't want to come down too hard on a heart-sick 18 year old girl, but if I take this tale as gospel, your husband didn't do anything remotely pr!ckish. Girl thought she could reign in the guy she wanted with sex ... so she CHOSE to have sex with him. He didn't use her or even misrepresent his position. She did that all by herself. He was being honest and genuine ... she wasn't, and as a result she got hurt. Had he seduced her and been all honey and sugar and then ignored her, your husband would have been culpable. But it sounds to me like he has taken ownership and guilt over a traumatic event that he didn't have to. Was somebody hurt? Yes. Was he a conniving dishonest jerk? No.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> I was kinda hoping for a TAM love triangle ...


Scanner might be into that but you'd have to ask...


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## Therealbrighteyes

Teehee. 
I will admit, I kind of have a fondness for Deejo, NG and for odd reasons, Scannerguard. All in essence are tormented people who are trying to better themselves. I find that an admirable trait and very attractive. 
I find my husband more attractive though. Wish he realized that and "manned up". **Le Sigh**.


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## Trenton

Brennan said:


> Teehee.
> I will admit, I kind of have a fondness for Deejo, NG and for odd reasons, Scannerguard. All in essence are tormented people who are trying to better themselves. I find that an admirable trait and very attractive.
> I find my husband more attractive though. Wish he realized that and "manned up". **Le Sigh**.


Hmmmm that's like a love square with a circle in the middle. It could be very interesting! Please do document!


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## Trenton

Deejo, began reading up on your Max guy and had this grossed out look on my face while shaking my head. I don't care if he manages to get laid. He's getting laid by ladies as f'd up as he is. Modern and Ironic Mad Max.


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## Deejo

Brennan said:


> Teehee.
> I will admit, I kind of have a fondness for Deejo, NG and for odd reasons, Scannerguard. All in essence are tormented people who are trying to better themselves. I find that an admirable trait and very attractive.
> I find my husband more attractive though. Wish he realized that and "manned up". **Le Sigh**.


"Chicks dig me because I rarely wear underwear, and when I do it's usually something unusual."

Tormented? Like Antonio Banderas from "Desperado"? That would be cool ...


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Deejo, began reading up on your Max guy and had this grossed out look on my face while shaking my head. I don't care if he manages to get laid. He's getting laid by ladies as f'd up as he is. Modern and Ironic Mad Max.


A "Nice Guy" upon reading "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell" will want to swallow his own tongue.

Dude is damaged, but makes a pretty good living marketing himself and writing about it.


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> A "Nice Guy" upon reading "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell" will want to swallow his own tongue.
> 
> Dude is damaged, but makes a pretty good living marketing himself and writing about it.


What's with all the quotes? Hope you don't think I understand them. 

If Mad Max is who you admire, I cringe. Maybe it is the ideal man for a man but it's not for a woman so I can't raise a mug of beer and say "Cheers!" without wanting to bite my own tongue. Sorry but I'm a chick that is a prick, not a **** that loves to be a ****.


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## Trenton

Ha! Look at all the pretty stars! Man, I hate when my husband works late. Did I mention that lately? lol


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## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I was kinda hoping for a TAM love triangle ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now see, this is where the lines start to get fuzzy. I don't want to come down too hard on a heart-sick 18 year old girl, but if I take this tale as gospel, your husband didn't do anything remotely pr!ckish. Girl thought she could reign in the guy she wanted with sex ... so she CHOSE to have sex with him. He didn't use her or even misrepresent his position. She did that all by herself. He was being honest and genuine ... she wasn't, and as a result she got hurt. Had he seduced her and been all honey and sugar and then ignored her, your husband would have been culpable. But it sounds to me like he has taken ownership and guilt over a traumatic event that he didn't have to. Was somebody hurt? Yes. Was he a conniving dishonest jerk? No.


Agreed that he wasn't a jerk. He did use her however for his own needs. I don't fault him at all for that as he was young and wanting to get his rocks off. She built it up as something more. His reaction though is what he struggles with. He USED her for sex and nothing more. I think that screwed him up more than I could ever imagine! He CANNOT separate love and sex now. Cannot. So when we fight/argue, sex is off the table. Grrrrr.


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> What's with all the quotes? Hope you don't think I understand them.
> 
> If Mad Max is who you admire, I cringe. Maybe it is the ideal man for a man but it's not for a woman so I can't raise a mug of beer and say "Cheers!" without wanting to bite my own tongue. Sorry but I'm a chick that is a prick, not a **** that loves to be a ****.


Quotes are for the phrase Nice Guy and the book authored by Tucker Max called I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. I learned to use quotes when designating an authored work in skool.

I do not admire him, and thought I made that clear in previous posts. But ... I don't doubt that he has admirers, and wants for no lack of emotionally damaged women, albeit with pretty nice bums.

Are you drunk or ovulating?


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Quotes are for the phrase Nice Guy and the book authored by Tucker Max called I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. I learned to use quotes when designating an authored work in skool.
> 
> I do not admire him, and thought I made that clear in previous posts. But ... I don't doubt that he has admirers, and wants for no lack of emotionally damaged women, albeit with pretty nice bums.
> 
> Are you drunk or ovulating?


Sorry, not paying attention enough? Not drunk, can't even remember the last time and don't believe I'm ovulating. What are you implying?

I have no bum so maybe that's why I find the guy gross.


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## OhGeesh

vthomeschoolmom said:


> So you think *women* are dishonest? I can see then why you have trouble.
> 
> 
> I thought fitness tests were nothing more than your opportunity to show your worth. I guess I still don't get that concept.


I agree. I don't know what warped relationships many of these people are in claiming this stuff, but if that is the real world I'll stay in my fairy tale world of communication, sacrifice, loving and living for each other.


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## Trenton

OhGeesh said:


> I agree. I don't know what warped relationships many of these people are in claiming this stuff, but if that is the real world I'll stay in my fairy tale world of communication, sacrifice, loving and living for each other.


Ahhhh fairy tales. I love them.


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## nice777guy

Affaircare said:


> This is just my guess but I think I get what you mean, NG. We as women do have some draw or pull to a "bad boy" who's tough and rebellious, and that I what might unknowingly threaten a "nice guy" marriage. But here's the way I see it:
> 
> I married a guy with the physical attributes that attract me. Yes, I have a giant crush on Jerry Garcia! LOL  So on that level my Dear Hubby catches my eye, and in order to continue doing so he does not need to have ABS OF STEEL or anything--I married what I find smoking hot!
> 
> BUT when we married he was an independent, single father who liked to travel and had some interests and a life of his own. Thankfully many of his interests and my interests coincide and we do those things together--nice. But what happens that can grow "unattractive" if you will is not his physique. It's more like if he were to become utterly Dependent, not really have a life of his own, not really have any interests of his own, and have no real opinions about anything. I am attracted to him physically but on that mental/emotional level I don't want someone who'll give up himself and buckle under to everything--I want an EQUAL and a PARTNER who continues to be himself while I continue to be myself...and then we share. I don't want him to be me and like all the same stuff I do--that's smothery. I don't want him to make me like all the things he does--that's controlling. And neither smothery nor controlling are attractive.
> 
> And yep--you may have the hottest of the hot exterior, but if you have become a cling-on with no spine and no life of your own to pique our interest...then you become unattractive and that DOES threaten a nice guy marriage.
> 
> (See? A woman ON TOPIC!  )


Sorry to get things back on topic, but this post interested me.

Wanting an equal or a partner - and not being concerned with abs of steel - is this who you've always been, or a result of going through a divorce and simply maturing as you go through life?

And back off topic - landed on my shoulder doing rolls in Judo last night AGAIN. Had to sleep sitting up - hurts like HELL. My ass simply does not belong over my head.

And after being home a bit more last night and today - maybe things are going better than I sometimes give them credit for.

Brennan - I read just a little bit of your frustration somewhere in the General forum - didn't realize things had gotten that bad. Hope you realize you are dealing with a lot of situational stress. That kind of stuff will strain even the best marriages.


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## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Agreed that he wasn't a jerk. He did use her however for his own needs. I don't fault him at all for that as he was young and wanting to get his rocks off. She built it up as something more. His reaction though is what he struggles with. He USED her for sex and nothing more. I think that screwed him up more than I could ever imagine! He CANNOT separate love and sex now. Cannot. So when we fight/argue, sex is off the table. Grrrrr.


Of course, you know that can be some of the best.

Just ask Wolf.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Of course, you know that can be some of the best.
> 
> Just ask Wolf.


Conrad, sorry, once again I do not understand your post. What can be the best, sex with someone you don't care about? Or are we talking makeup/angry sex in which case that will never happen as hubby isn't "emotionally connected" which leaves me beyond frustrated. :scratchhead:


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## Conrad

Brennan said:


> Conrad, sorry, once again I do not understand your post. What can be the best, sex with someone you don't care about? Or are we talking makeup/angry sex in which case that will never happen as hubby isn't "emotionally connected" which leaves me beyond frustrated. :scratchhead:


Make-up/angry sex is some of the hottest ever experienced.

It can also make you wish to fight, so you can get to the process of making up.

I've only had sex with someone I didn't care about one time. I should have jacked it instead. It was wretched.


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