# for those who have reconciled - are you ever really happy again?



## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

It's been a while since I was on this forum. The gist of my story is it wasn't a PA or even full blown EA. In January 2013 I discovered my husband of 18+ years betrayed my trust by making a secret phone call to his highschool girlfriend after they reconnected on facebook. I had reluctantly allowed them to be facebook friends with the stipulation that all contact be on facebook - no private texts, phone calls, etc. - and that I could access his facebook any time I wanted. Well he decided he just had to call her to find out why her first marriage broke up (her ex was in a love triangle between my husband and she while in highschool). He sent her a private email asking her to call him. They talked for about 15 minutes. No nothing more happened. All communication has been broken off since I discovered the phone call. I also learned that he did also called her just before we got married to tell her he had found "the one". He tracked her down by calling her parents and asking them to have her call him. This is not just some old sweetheart. He was in love with her, and he will always care about her. They share a "bond" from their youth. She wrote to him on facebook that "I won't forget our promise, now and forever." <sigh>

So anyways, that's the gist of the story. Hubby called x-girlfriend from 20+ years ago despite me asking no contact between them other than facebook. He has apologized profusely and has made every effort to show me he is remorseful and will no longer lie to me. We had 6 marital counseling sessions, but he refused to do any more after that. I have continued IC ever since. 

Many would see this as an overreaction on my part, but I can't help how I feel. I feel like he betrayed my trust, and I don't know him as well as I thought I did. I feel such a sense of loss that I will never believe in him or admire him the way I did before. I want our old relationship back so badly. I admit it...I idolized him. I was deleriously happy. I felt like I was living the fairly tale most women dream about, and yes I felt like that after even 18 years of marriage. People always remarked how special our relationship was - they could see there was something magical between us. We both would talk about how special our relationship was, how lucky we were because we knew most people did not have the type of bond we had. We discussed frequently our "zero tolerance policy" - which was no cheating of any kind would ever be allowed, or we were over. This allowed us to have complete trust in each other. Unfortunately we did not define it clearly enough. Apparently lying without cheating or intention of cheating was not part of this policy in my husband's mind. He felt it was ok to call his old girlfriend behind my back because he did not have any intentions of it being anything more than "catching up" and because they each talked about how happy they were with their current spouses. This is how he justified it to himself. He admits although he knew I did not want him to have any private contact with her, he went ahead with calling her "because I knew I could get away with it". 

I know he has made a huge mistake and feels terribly about it. I have been working so hard on forgiveness and feel that I have forgiven him for being impulsive and selfish. Yet I still feel so sad and unhappy. I wonder if I truly have forgiven him, but I don't know how to get to that next level, despite therapy. I am grieving the loss of who we used to be and how I used to view him and the unquestionable trust I used to have in him. I never, ever thought he could hurt me, and now I know that he has the capacity to do so, and the capacity to lie to me. I can never get back my innocent view of him and our relationship. 

For some time I kept trying to convince myself that we could get back what we had. But I don't think that it will ever get back to that level. I feel like we are tainted, damaged by this. I am so sad for what we have lost. 

I feel like I am never going to be happy again. I don't want anyone else. I love my husband so much. He is a good man at his core and has been by my side through some very terrible things...he has always been my greatest supporter.

How do I let go of who we were and be happy with who we are now? My therapist says I am grieving, and I just have to go through this stage, no way to no how long it will last. I thought it might help me to hear from others who have reconciled, made it past this stage, and feel true happiness again. Please tell me you are out there.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> I had reluctantly allowed them to be facebook friends with the stipulation that all contact be on facebook - no private texts, phone calls, etc. - and that I could access his facebook any time I wanted. Well he decided he just had to call her to find out why her first marriage broke up (her ex was in a love triangle between my husband and she while in highschool). He sent her a private email asking her to call him. They talked for about 15 minutes.


That was like giving an addict a tiny bit of crack, and then telling them they could have no more. 

Not trying to knock you when you already down, but hopefully someone else reading this will take note, and shut down the ex-bf/gf garbage before it gets out of hand.

On your question...it sounds like he is really trying, so give it some time before you pull the plug.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Does he feel terrible about it or just terrible that he got caught? And he didn't make "a huge mistake". He openly admits he was unconcerned with what you would think and thought he could get away with it, which he did. A mistake is something done with good intentions that turns out bad, and that's not what he did. He's shown you that he's willing to do what he thinks he can get away with, and getting away with it means if he's caught he can apologize profusely and you'll forgive him. This is a crack in his character, so proceed accordingly. I don't think you're overreacting at all. Put a stop to this right now, tell him to cut her off and if you find out he's gone behind your back again he can leave. Dealing with this now will save you a lot of trouble down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Does he feel terrible about it or just terrible that he got caught?


I think it is both. Initially he just felt bad he got caught. His reaction was "wow the risk/benefit of this really wasn't worth it".

Since he has seen how much devastation it has caused us and pain he has caused me, I believe he feels terrible about his actions. He has said "I will spend the rest of my life trying to make this up to you." and "I will never take you for granted again." and "What have I done? I fear I have damaged us, tainted us." But yet there are still times that he gets so frustrated that I am "not over it yet" and still says things to try to diminish what he did like "I know what I did was very bad, and I don't want to minimize my actions, but I don't think it was so bad as to warrant the way you are reacting." When he says things like that it sets me back, of course. He just wants it to be over and "get back to our life the way it used to be". I feel like I have lost so much more than he has. If I am happy (and I am not unhappy ALL the time, just really having a bad spell right now), then he is happy as a clam. To be honest...I want him to hurt as much as I have been hurt, lose as much as I have lost. I know that is wrong, but I realized the other night that this is true. We had another fight where he said I am the queen of guilt trips. It is true. I've been trying to make him see how much he has hurt me, how much he has damaged us, because I think it is so unfair how my life has changed so much yet it seems he can forget and be happy again. This is still very consuming to me, yet he can forget about it unless I bring it up. 



lifeistooshort said:


> And he didn't make "a huge mistake". He openly admits he was unconcerned with what you would think and thought he could get away with it, which he did. A mistake is something done with good intentions that turns out bad, and that's not what he did. He's shown you that he's willing to do what he thinks he can get away with, and getting away with it means if he's caught he can apologize profusely and you'll forgive him. This is a crack in his character, so proceed accordingly. I don't think you're overreacting at all. Put a stop to this right now, tell him to cut her off and if you find out he's gone behind your back again he can leave. Dealing with this now will save you a lot of trouble down the road.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has been cut off since January. I have told him clearly that if I find out about any additional lies or betrayal I will walk. And I MEAN IT. He knows it. I had to say that to him outright to even get close to feeling ok about trying to trust him again. I had to be honest with myself and promise myself that I'd be willing to walk if he ever betrays me again. I am. I am stronger now than I have ever been. Just still SAD about what I have lost, and wondering how the heck people who reconcile are truly ever happy again.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

It's so hard to distinguish what is real remorse and blustering just to get through he initial bust. If we had that talent we would all bust our spouses when the thought first entered their heads to stray. It's really difficult to weed out the truth when our emotional radars are all over the place during stressful times...... I still struggle when trying to understand genuine remorse. 

Hard to trust anything anymore eh?


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> It's been a while since I was on this forum. The gist of my story is it wasn't a PA or even full blown EA. In January 2013 I discovered my husband of 18+ years betrayed my trust by making a secret phone call to his highschool girlfriend after they reconnected on facebook. I had reluctantly allowed them to be facebook friends with the stipulation that all contact be on facebook - no private texts, phone calls, etc. - and that I could access his facebook any time I wanted. Well he decided he just had to call her to find out why her first marriage broke up (her ex was in a love triangle between my husband and she while in highschool). He sent her a private email asking her to call him. They talked for about 15 minutes. No nothing more happened. All communication has been broken off since I discovered the phone call. I also learned that he did also called her just before we got married to tell her he had found "the one". He tracked her down by calling her parents and asking them to have her call him. This is not just some old sweetheart. He was in love with her, and he will always care about her. They share a "bond" from their youth. She wrote to him on facebook that "I won't forget our promise, now and forever." <sigh>
> 
> So anyways, that's the gist of the story. Hubby called x-girlfriend from 20+ years ago despite me asking no contact between them other than facebook. He has apologized profusely and has made every effort to show me he is remorseful and will no longer lie to me. We had 6 marital counseling sessions, but he refused to do any more after that. I have continued IC ever since.
> 
> ...


Once he said he went ahead and called her against your wishes because he knew he could get away with it he sealed the deal that your trust level will never be the same. Not to say you can't be happy moving forward--it's not necessarily a deal breaker. It just won't be the same (and probably not as good).


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

daggeredheart said:


> Hard to trust anything anymore eh?


It feels almost impossible. 


I feel like I will never trust ANYONE ever again to the same degree. It was such a heady feeling to trust another human being implicity, with no reserverations or doubts. It makes one feel so alone. I have lost so much, including my belief in others.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I think that the hardest part is getting over it. The impossible part is getting over it FULLY. True, he has done the heavy lifting, and seems truly sorry for what he did, but he may also feel that you want to punish him forever. I don't think you do (you will NEVER truly forgive until then).
But that may also be him: they say that the hardest person in the world to forgive is yourself, and he may never truly forgive himself for what he has done. And because of that, he may feel that he has to walk on eggshells around you, because the next time you have an argument, you may say something along the lines of: "This is just like the time you called that skank behind my back!", and he will be back at the starting gate-starting the long, gruelling road to get back in your good graces again. Perhaps this is why he seemed to "give up" on MC.

I know, it's only natural to want someone who has betrayed you to suffer (hell, I still will never forgive my sister for something she did over 20 yrs. ago!), but if he feels that you won't forgive him, he may very well give up and take off.

Don't get me wrong-I'm not putting the burden on you. Yes, he did betray your trust, he didn't listen to you and contacted her, but some people are like little kids. There are those who listen to their mothers and don't touch the stove, and there are those who deliberately disobey and burn their hands. Well, guess which crowd will positively NEVER touch that stove again!

I know that this is tough for you, too. I much the same way that he may feel that you are just waiting for another golden opportunity to punish him with the incident all over again, you will definitely be approaching him differently. What happens when he is sitting on the couch, just staring at the wall deep in thought, the way all men do when something is on their minds? What will you think? Is he tired? Did he have a bad day at work? Did someone cut him off in traffic...

...or is he thinking of her?

There are no easy answers-and please do not give up IC. Perhaps, when this is all over and done, you may very well get back to that sweet old place again.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

When I read your posts I see a lot of myself in the tone; you are reacting much like I would react. I'm guessing you have a tough time deeply trusting people, and you thought you could trust him completely but now you realize you can't. I am the same way as far as the deeply trusting part. Fwiw I do think you can be happy again, but you'll never quite trust him completely again. I get his frustration, but I agree that he doesn't really get what you lost. You can tell him but based on his responses it'll turn into a poor me pity party for him. This is something you'll have to square with yourself a he'll probably never really get it unless you do something comparable to him. Not suggesting you should, just that he won't have real empathy without it. You absolutely did the right think by making clear that you will walk if he lies again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Philat said:


> Once he said he went ahead and called her against your wishes because he knew he could get away with it he sealed the deal that your trust level will never be the same. Not to say you can't be happy moving forward--it's not necessarily a deal breaker. It just won't be the same (and probably not as good).


I know. 

I've since realized his whole family has this sneaky way about them. They don't seem to have an issue with telling lies to each other or "working the system" to gain advantage. I've always known my husband is good at getting away with things and never getting caught (always said he had good karma, I had bad, I always get caught when I do bad stuff). I just never expected it to be used on me.

He told me the other day he realized his Mom was lying to him about something, b/c she was avoiding him lecturing her. He laughed about it. And his brother told us about lying about someone dying in order to get out of paying a hotel bill he forgot to cancel before the required time. They both got a good laugh out of that one, whereas I was appalled. I guess I was even more appalled because it revealed to me this whole sneaky behavior he has learned.

I pointed out later to my husband that I see where he gets this behavior from. He learned it from his mother/family. He didn't argue with me, kinda looked guilty. Yeah, I DO give him guilt trips. I just want him to learn from this and make sure he has changed. Perhaps there is hope that he will see that he needs to work on his sense of morality regarding honesty. Last spring, after he made a pledge to me to be honest (after the initial blow up) he made a comment that it was "liberating" to be honest. WOW. What the heck? I mean really? He said he learned he just needs to "man up" and deal with any conflict it might create between us (for situations where he and I disagree about him doing something, etc.). So I will say although his comment freaked me out, at least I think he is learning something about himself from all of this. 

However, my eyes have been opened and I am "wide awake" now, and I don't like it. It hurts. I want to go back to the way things were.

And even though I am making all kinds of miserable comments about him here, I have to share that at his core he is a good, good man. He would do anything in the world for me still. He still bends over backwards for me. He is very generous and is so caring towards others, to a fault sometimes. 

People can be good but have some very bads to their personality, too. <sigh> Such is the internal conflict I have.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

What you shared is what so many of us go through- that desire that the WP feel the same pain but it's pointless. They will not be able to understand unless they experience it and even if they did you would not gain satisfaction. It's a hamster wheel, chasing the cure. 

You touched a nerve w me...a good one. I've gotta run but i want to formulate a better thought to share w you.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

F-102 said:


> I think that the hardest part is getting over it. The impossible part is getting over it FULLY. True, he has done the heavy lifting, and seems truly sorry for what he did, but he may also feel that you want to punish him forever. I don't think you do (you will NEVER truly forgive until then).



He does feel like that. His comments during recent arguments:

"I guess I just have to keep taking my beatings"

<sigh> 

I guess there is a part of me that feels like he truly doesn't understand what he has cost me/us...although I know he does at some level. So I get frustrated when I hear the above. But yes, there is a part of me that wants him to hurt like I have been hurt. I didn't see that until recently. Thought I just wanted him to understand me better. But when I look hard at myself, there is a part of me that is still angry and feels like it is so unfair...I did nothing to deserve this...trying to be honest with myself...it's not all retaliation/trying to lay a guilt trip, but honestly, part of it is.

When will that part of me stop wanting to make sure he understands what he has done, stop wanting to punish him? 

I'm starting to wonder if it is because I haven't fully grieved what he has cost us. I read somewhere that until you fully grieve your losses you can't move forward. I guess a part of me kept hoping we could get back to where we were before this. But I am starting to realize that no matter what he says or does, no matter how good he is, we'll never have the old "us" back.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> When I read your posts I see a lot of myself in the tone; you are reacting much like I would react. I'm guessing you have a tough time deeply trusting people, and you thought you could trust him completely but now you realize you can't. I am the same way as far as the deeply trusting part. Fwiw I do think you can be happy again, but you'll never quite trust him completely again. I get his frustration, but I agree that he doesn't really get what you lost. You can tell him but based on his responses it'll turn into a poor me pity party for him. This is something you'll have to square with yourself a he'll probably never really get it unless you do something comparable to him. Not suggesting you should, just that he won't have real empathy without it. You absolutely did the right think by making clear that you will walk if he lies again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes we discussed in therapy how I don't trust others easily...but once I DO trust, I am COMPLETELY devoted. I don't trust easily b/c of course I was betrayed pretty significantly by two family members AND a college counselor, and by my college boyfriend. So I met my husband after all this happened, he promised me he would never hurt me...and I believed him completely because his actions towards me were so wonderful for so many years. 

Thanks for saying he doesn't quite get what I lost. I wish I could convey it to him. It hurts to know he will probably never quite get it. Somehow, I have to make peace with that. Not sure how. And no, I won't cheat, so don't worry, I don't see your post as encouraging that. I have no interest in anyone else, never have.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Have you read NOT Just Friends by Shirley Glass? She's considered the leading expert in infidelity. Her book explains a lot about what you're feeling, about some of the many factors that may have made him more vulnerable to this kind of behavior, and about how it takes a LONG time to rebuild trust.

One thing I learned from the book is that we are dealing with the twin problems of grief AND trauma. Glass says "it takes several months to get over the initial shock" and "reconstructing the marriage is usually a long-term process lasting _at least_ one or two years" and that "full recovery and healing can take several years."

I've been dealing with this about as long as you have, and my level of trust in my husband is still very low, but not as low as it was earlier this year. I know it will never be what it was before the affair. 

But I also know that everyone acquires scars of some kind throughout their lives. I guess my marriage has a big one now. The scar means it's damaged, but doesn't necessarily mean it's ruined in the long run. I take a long view of it, taking into account the good that the man has done along with this horrible thing. He's remorseful and we're in MC and he's doing things outside his comfort zone - making changes that show he really "gets it." But I need to see this over time, and that's what you will probably need. Our WS's can do the right things, but time is the other necessary ingredient for our healing because after betrayal, trust can only be rebuilt with consistent proof of trustworthy behavior.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

My husband begged me to read the book " When good people have Affairs" ...

This Trust thing, it's the hardest thing for me to give back ...so hard.

~sammy


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

daggeredheart said:


> What you shared is what so many of us go through- that desire that the WP feel the same pain but it's pointless. They will not be able to understand unless they experience it and even if they did you would not gain satisfaction. It's a hamster wheel, chasing the cure.
> 
> You touched a nerve w me...a good one. I've gotta run but i want to formulate a better thought to share w you.


Thank you...it is so helpful to hear others have this same desire...and that it is pointless on my part to try to make it happen. I feel less alone. I thank you so much for that. I'm so glad I came back to the forum. I have friends who care and have been wonderful, but none of them have been betrayed - so I don't think they can ever really quite get it either. 

And I'm glad it was a good nerve I touched.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, he didn't really do anything wrong. You created unreasonable conditions regarding contact with someone from the distant past, and knowing you were irrational about this, took a chance and had an innocent conversation. Given your nature, I can understand you feel hurt and betrayed. He also made a mistake in agreeing to your stipulations rather than honestly and assertively refusing to comply.

I don't feel this should be a huge deal, but that's me - obviously it is to you and he is feeling cornered. Clearly you didn't trust him in the first place by limiting his ability to connect with old friends. Do you really think that after 18 years he's with you that he's going to be tempted to take up with a high school gf?

Perhaps I'm being harsh, and maybe there is something more to the story that you haven't provided.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> I know.
> 
> I've since realized his whole family has this sneaky way about them. They don't seem to have an issue with telling lies to each other or "working the system" to gain advantage. I've always known my husband is good at getting away with things and never getting caught (always said he had good karma, I had bad, I always get caught when I do bad stuff). I just never expected it to be used on me.
> 
> ...


If this is behavior learned from the nuclear family it will take a lot of counseling to really change it. You don't undo ingrained behavior patterns with a single aha moment.

We all wish you happiness.


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> ....
> I guess there is a part of me that feels like he truly doesn't understand what he has cost me/us...although I know he does at some level.......


Your here and he isn't and that's a pity in some ways because if he spent half a week going through this coping with infidelity forum he may glean a tenth of the pain any form of deceit cheating in a marriage brings

As I said to my ex "one day someone is going to do to you what you've done to me and then let me see the look on your face. Only then will you get it"


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Yes we discussed in therapy how I don't trust others easily...but once I DO trust, I am COMPLETELY devoted. I don't trust easily b/c of course I was betrayed pretty significantly by two family members AND a college counselor, and by my college boyfriend. So I met my husband after all this happened, he promised me he would never hurt me...and I believed him completely because his actions towards me were so wonderful for so many years.
> 
> Thanks for saying he doesn't quite get what I lost. I wish I could convey it to him. It hurts to know he will probably never quite get it. Somehow, I have to make peace with that. Not sure how. And no, I won't cheat, so don't worry, I don't see your post as encouraging that. I have no interest in anyone else, never have.


 me too, once I trust I am extremely loyal. Of course I'm not encouraging cheating (that wouldn't solve anything), I'm just saying that there's no way for him to really get it short of that, and even then he may not because thanks to his family he finds lying acceptable on some level. I too was betrayed by a family member when I was little and then not protected by other family members that wanted to cover it up, so in my world you basically get one chance. If you screw that up we're done. .What your hb did is a little more grey though, which is why I think you can be happy again. Could you try talking to him when you're both calm? Does he know the extent of your trust issues/background? I think that you could start to let it go if you felt like he got it, if only a little.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> He does feel like that. His comments during recent arguments:
> 
> "I guess I just have to keep taking my beatings"
> 
> ...


Another good book I highly recommend: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald. He may not like the implication that this was an affair, but there was betrayal and deception - so much of what's in this little book (it's very short) would be helpful. It's designed to help wayward spouses "get it." The NOT getting it on the part of the betrayer is a significant roadblock to the faithful spouse's healing. This book gets the message across very well - helps the waywards see what they're usually missing in all this, and gives them tips about how to help us. The sooner he's able to show you that he DOES get it, the sooner you will start to feel some of the intensity of your anguish begin to lessen.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> Have you read NOT Just Friends by Shirley Glass? She's considered the leading expert in infidelity. Her book explains a lot about what you're feeling, about some of the many factors that may have made him more vulnerable to this kind of behavior, and about how it takes a LONG time to rebuild trust.
> 
> One thing I learned from the book is that we are dealing with the twin problems of grief AND trauma. Glass says "it takes several months to get over the initial shock" and "reconstructing the marriage is usually a long-term process lasting _at least_ one or two years" and that "full recovery and healing can take several years."
> 
> ...


Yes, I have read her book, and it was extremely insightful and amazing. I guess b/c hubby is so frustrated and wants me to get over this (I know, that is common among WS), I am feeling frustrated with myself and how long this is taking. I also was feeling like since it was not a full EA I should be recovering faster...some self-imposed guilt...hubbie's comments on this not helping either...I'm just so impatient with my recovery. I want to put it behind us, too...and I just can't seem to. 

Thank you for sharing your story and insights. Sounds indeed like we are on a similar path.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, he didn't really do anything wrong. You created unreasonable conditions regarding contact with someone from the distant past, and knowing you were irrational about this, took a chance and had an innocent conversation. Given your nature, I can understand you feel hurt and betrayed. He also made a mistake in agreeing to your stipulations rather than honestly and assertively refusing to comply.
> 
> I don't feel this should be a huge deal, but that's me - obviously it is to you and he is feeling cornered. Clearly you didn't trust him in the first place by limiting his ability to connect with old friends. Do you really think that after 18 years he's with you that he's going to be tempted to take up with a high school gf?
> 
> Perhaps I'm being harsh, and maybe there is something more to the story that you haven't provided.


Read my full initial story and maybe you will understand. Too lengthy to repeat here.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Does he know the extent of your trust issues/background? I think that you could start to let it go if you felt like he got it, if only a little.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He does know the full extent of my trust issues, and we discussed it in MC. He says he has always known I am "fragile" and has tried to protect me and not hurt me. I hate it that he calls me that...he thinks he is being nice and considerate, whereas I take it as an insult. I'm especially fiesty now that all this has happened and determined to never let anyone take advantage of me again. 

So I know he gets it, some...but sees me as weak emotionally, which pisses me off.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, he didn't really do anything wrong. You created unreasonable conditions regarding contact with someone from the distant past, and knowing you were irrational about this, took a chance and had an innocent conversation. Given your nature, I can understand you feel hurt and betrayed. He also made a mistake in agreeing to your stipulations rather than honestly and assertively refusing to comply.
> 
> I don't feel this should be a huge deal, but that's me - obviously it is to you and he is feeling cornered. Clearly you didn't trust him in the first place by limiting his ability to connect with old friends. Do you really think that after 18 years he's with you that he's going to be tempted to take up with a high school gf?
> 
> Perhaps I'm being harsh, and maybe there is something more to the story that you haven't provided.


Yes, you're being harsh. Has your spouse cheated on you? You don't understand "slippery slopes" or appropriate boundaries, which are designed to prevent problems. 

"Do you really think that after 18 years he's with you that he's going to be tempted to take up with a high school gf?" This happens ALL the time!! That's what the "conditions" (boundaries) were set up to prevent. These weren't just "pals." They were in love at one time. Opportunities make affairs more likely, while avoiding opportunities prevents affairs.

Friends of the opposite sex once you are married can be dangerous territory even when there was no previous "love connection." Ground rules about such friendships or contacts that both feel comfortable with are necessary for a couple to feel secure. If you and your spouse have a more open set of rules, fine, but those of us who have been betrayed would strongly advise against it.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> Another good book I highly recommend: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald. He may not like the implication that this was an affair, but there was betrayal and deception - so much of what's in this little book (it's very short) would be helpful. It's designed to help wayward spouses "get it." The NOT getting it on the part of the betrayer is a significant roadblock to the faithful spouse's healing. This book gets the message across very well - helps the waywards see what they're usually missing in all this, and gives them tips about how to help us. The sooner he's able to show you that he DOES get it, the sooner you will start to feel some of the intensity of your anguish begin to lessen.


Thank you - will definitely pursue this. I just need to be careful like you said b/c he gets pissed with anything I've tried to have him read that uses the words affair, even though I told him I know it was not an affair - just a betrayal of my trust.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> He does know the full extent of my trust issues, and we discussed it in MC. He says he has always known I am "fragile" and has tried to protect me and not hurt me. I hate it that he calls me that...he thinks he is being nice and considerate, whereas I take it as an insult. I'm especially fiesty now that all this has happened and determined to never let anyone take advantage of me again.
> 
> So I know he gets it, some...but sees me as weak emotionally, which pisses me off.



OMG, I totally get that! Like somehow he's not doing anything wrong and is just doing you a big fat favor by protecting weak little you, because your issues aren't real. They're just you being weak; this makes me wonder if he really thinks what he did was acceptable and it's just sensitive little you making a stink that he has to worry about. If that's the case be doesn't get it at all. I don't know how to deal with that, let me know if you figure it out because I could use some of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> yes, you're being harsh. Has your spouse cheated on you? You don't understand "slippery slopes" or appropriate boundaries, which are designed to prevent problems.
> 
> "do you really think that after 18 years he's with you that he's going to be tempted to take up with a high school gf?" this happens all the time!! That's what the "conditions" (boundaries) were set up to prevent. These weren't just "pals." they were in love at one time. Opportunities make affairs more likely, while avoiding opportunities prevents affairs.
> 
> Friends of the opposite sex once you are married can be dangerous territory even when there was no previous "love connection." ground rules about such friendships or contacts that both feel comfortable with are necessary for a couple to feel secure. If you and your spouse have a more open set of rules, fine, but those of us who have been betrayed would strongly advise against it.


thank you


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The problem is that you now know you were not his first choice. 

Needing to know why her marriage broke up is about his wanting to know his place in her thoughts and heart. It was abou scoping out the possibilities. 

In a lot of ways I think this is among the worst kind of betrayal. All affairs make a marriage feel like a lie but this betrayal takes you back to before you were in the picture. His heart never left her. 

I know I wouldn't be able to get over this one. 

Have him take a lie detector test to see where his head was really at. Maybe I am wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> OMG, I totally get that! Like somehow he's not doing anything wrong and is just doing you a big fat favor by protecting weak little you, because your issues aren't real. They're just you being weak; this makes me wonder if he really thinks what he did was acceptable and it's just sensitive little you making a stink that he has to worry about. If that's the case be doesn't get it at all. I don't know how to deal with that, let me know if you figure it out because I could use some of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG do you share my brain? Ha ha ha!!!!! 

My thoughts exactly. I think he knows it was wrong to lie and have a secret conversation with another woman, but doesn't think it was terribly wrong b/c it wasn't an actual affair, emotional or physical. Although it did flirt with being an EA since he admits there was chemistry/excitement during the conversation and he spoke to her tenderly like he did to me, which he says he never should have done-he should only speak to me that way...he apologized profusely for this (sometimes the truth comes out when people drink and you question them...although honestly I wish I didn't know all that. Too painful.). 

He does indeed feel horrible for the pain he has caused me/damage he has caused us (even if it is because I am "fragile" in his mind). So that makes me feel better to some degree, even if he doesn't really "get it" as to why I am still not "over it" yet. I guess he partially gets it, just not to the degree I would like him to, as he still at times tries to minimize it. Of course I need to realize perhaps he is doing that as a self-defense mechanism b/c he does feel really guilty...maybe?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> Yes, you're being harsh. Has your spouse cheated on you? You don't understand "slippery slopes" or appropriate boundaries, which are designed to prevent problems.
> 
> "Do you really think that after 18 years he's with you that he's going to be tempted to take up with a high school gf?" This happens ALL the time!! That's what the "conditions" (boundaries) were set up to prevent. These weren't just "pals." They were in love at one time. Opportunities make affairs more likely, while avoiding opportunities prevents affairs.
> 
> Friends of the opposite sex once you are married can be dangerous territory even when there was no previous "love connection." Ground rules about such friendships or contacts that both feel comfortable with are necessary for a couple to feel secure. If you and your spouse have a more open set of rules, fine, but those of us who have been betrayed would strongly advise against it.


I didn't see anywhere that her husband had ever cheated on her in the past. Did he? (If he had cheated, that would change the complexion of this completely.) If all he did was talk to an old gf on the phone, that doesn't count as cheating in my book.

I wonder ... would he be forbidden to go to his high school reunion? Or would she chain herself to his wrist to preserve her dysfunctional insecurity? He might actually talk to an old gf! *gasp!*

Anyway, he didn't feel comfortable with her ridiculous boundaries, but screwed up by not confronting her about them. He probably preferred peace to raising her hackles, and meekness over growth and communication.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> The problem is that you now know you were not his first choice.
> 
> Needing to know why her marriage broke up is about his wanting to know his place in her thoughts and heart. It was abou scoping out the possibilities.
> 
> ...


YEP. He told me they didn't tell each other they love each other still, but did promise to each other "know you will always have a friend that loves you"... ugh. Like he thinks putting the word friend in there makes it all ok. 

We had huge discussions about whether I was "second best" and if he had regrets about how his life turned out, since he didn't end up marrying her. He has over and over again reassured me that their break up was mutual, and he is so happy with how his life turned out and has no regrets that he chose me to marry. He said they fought all the time, and it would have never lasted. He said she had a terrible temper and flirted too much (ya think?). 

I don't think any lie detector test is foolproof, so I have had to try to let this one go. It is yet another thing filed away in my brain, that comes out every now and again to make me doubt if I am really "the one". But I can't answer that question ever, so I must live with the fact that he is with me now, present, and trying to make things work/be happy. What else can I do.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> I didn't see anywhere that her husband had ever cheated on her in the past. Did he? (If he had cheated, that would change the complexion of this completely.) If all he did was talk to an old gf on the phone, that doesn't count as cheating in my book.
> 
> I wonder ... would he be forbidden to go to his high school reunion? Or would she chain herself to his wrist to preserve her dysfunctional insecurity? He might actually talk to an old gf! *gasp!*
> 
> Anyway, he didn't feel comfortable with her ridiculous boundaries, but screwed up by not confronting her about them. He probably preferred peace to raising her hackles, and meekness over growth and communication.


He didn't cheat on me. He betrayed my trust. I agreed to them being facebook friends. He called me in the room to witness a chat between them (which increased my trust in him even farther, of course). She flirted with him outwardly. He was appropriate back to her. She said "I won't forget our promise now and forever." I freaked on that one, he swore he had no idea what she was talking about. At this point is when I said I was not comfortable with them being facebook friends. He pleaded with me to let him be friends with her, and promised all communication would only be on facebook, that he would turn chat off - that I could see every communication between them. I trusted him and agreed to this.

Some time later her emailed her privately off facebook and asked her to call him. 

He betrayed my trust by engaging in a secret conversation with an old girlfriend. Then admits that conversation had an inappropriate "tone" and yes he would not have wanted me to hear it. And that he talked to her tenderly, in a way he normally reserves for me. And that that there was sexual tension/excitement during the conversation. 

Is that enough for you?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> He didn't cheat on me. He betrayed my trust. I agreed to them being facebook friends. He called me in the room to witness a chat between them (which increased my trust in him even farther, of course). She flirted with him outwardly. He was appropriate back to her. She said "I won't forget our promise now and forever." I freaked on that one, he swore he had no idea what she was talking about. At this point is when I said I was not comfortable with them being facebook friends. He pleaded with me to let him be friends with her, and promised all communication would only be on facebook, that he would turn chat off - that I could see every communication between them. I trusted him and agreed to this.
> 
> Some time later her emailed her privately off facebook and asked her to call him.
> 
> ...


Don't waste anymore time explaining your position. Anyone that doesn't get it with what you've written isn't going to. Frankly, I wouldn't be so sure he's not still in contact; he went through an awful lot to get in touch with her. Hate to say it but I'm not sure I could get over this, but that's me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Your story reminds me quite a bit of mine where there was no EA or PA but my wife exchanged e-mails with an ex-boyfriend of hers behind my back. Her response when I found out was: "I didn't know I had to get your permission to talk to an old friend". Well darling ... yes you do. So I put an end to it immediately and very abruptly. I wasn't overly hurt by this; more angry than anything else. I sent the guy a nasty e-mail because I felt he was fishing and then I told my wife what I said to him. She may never want to talk to him again just out of embarrassment. 

So was this an over reaction on your part? No Way! Neither was mine. These things could easily become full blown EA's or PA's in short order. The point is that you can't allow an emotional connection to "re-develop". So ... you are not controlling ..... you are protecting what's yours and enforcing appropriate boundaries. Having said that; yes I understand it hurts. I still check e-mails and phone records three years later because of trust... but in my case, I know that no real damage was done and I have put the matter behind me for the most part. But it does take time.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> Your story reminds me quite a bit of mine where there was no EA or PA but my wife exchanged e-mails with an ex-boyfriend of hers behind my back. Her response when I found out was: "I didn't know I had to get your permission to talk to an old friend". Well darling ... yes you do. So I put an end to it immediately and very abruptly. I wasn't overly hurt by this; more angry than anything else. I sent the guy a nasty e-mail because I felt he was fishing and told my wife what I said. She may never want to talk to him again just out of embarrassment.
> 
> So was this an over reaction on your part? No Way! Neither was mine. These things could easily become full blown EA's or PA's in short order. The point is that you can't allow an emotional connection to "re-develop". So ... you are not controlling ..... you are protecting what's yours and enforcing appropriate boundaries. Having said that; yes I understand it hurts and I still check e-mails and phone records three years later because of trust... but in my case, I know that no real damage was done and I have put the matter behind me for the most part. But it does take time.


"well darling, yes you do"

Ha ha, LOVE that. You really do have a similar situation. I am very happy to hear how you are doing 3 years later...and that time helps...where's that fast forward button?


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

I think 4getmenot is not grieving because it happened. She is grieving the image she once had of her H-a man she thought that she could trust at all times, then he betrayed her. It's like when you were a kid, and your best friend moved away. They are no longer there, and your life is now a lesser place because of it. That friend was the trust, and now it's gone.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Oh, and BTW, when exactly did they (H and HSGF) make that "promise"? It sounds like when they were 17-year old zit-faced teens, who still knew everything.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

4getmenot said:


> "well darling, yes you do"
> 
> Ha ha, LOVE that. You really do have a similar situation. I am very happy to hear how you are doing 3 years later...and that time helps...where's that fast forward button?


Sorry, no fast forward button that I know of. How quick it goes all depends on your personality, how long you dwell on it. Just view it as: "He's been warned". However, what ever you do .... no second chances. If it happens again he has to face serious consequences. 

I don't regret anything I did, even though I behaved like a bull in a china shop. If this "Friendship" had ever progressed to a PA, I would have immediately removed her from my life and she would be paying consequences. For me there is no reconciling after a PA. It's over ... bridges burned.

My wife was angry at me for a while for forbidding the contact between them and my Sister In Law said I was treating her like a child, but this contact just wasn't acceptable to me. There is more to my story than what I just said but I took my original thread down. PM me if your interested.


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## carolinadreams (Nov 30, 2012)

We're coming up on our 1 year D-Day in a week, and it has gotten better. I enjoy having my wife's partnership. Some moments can be as bad as D-Day but I suspect that's true of all acutely traumatic events. The strength of the emotional response and level of trauma just burns hardwired connections to pain in your brain, and it just take some time and an absence of fear and ongoing pain to soften those connections.


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## hopefulgirl (Feb 12, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Thank you - will definitely pursue this. I just need to be careful like you said b/c he gets pissed with anything I've tried to have him read that uses the words affair, even though I told him I know it was not an affair - just a betrayal of my trust.


Re How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair - I read it and did some highlighting that I felt pertained to us/him/me the most, THEN I handed it to my husband and asked him to just read those parts. 

You might do the same, and tell him that while the book's title sounds like it's directed only at people who've had affairs, it really does speak to the general betrayal of trust issue that's at the heart of your problems right now, and reading just the highlighted parts will help him to better understand how to help you heal.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

F-102 said:


> I think 4getmenot is not grieving because it happened. She is grieving the image she once had of her H-a man she thought that she could trust at all times, then he betrayed her. It's like when you were a kid, and your best friend moved away. They are no longer there, and your life is now a lesser place because of it. That friend was the trust, and now it's gone.


Absolutely, spot on. Grieving the image I had of us, and of him. I can never have the same image because of knowledge I now have. I had innocent trust and love before this. How can one ever regain that? It seems impossible once the innocence is gone.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

F-102 said:


> Oh, and BTW, when exactly did they (H and HSGF) make that "promise"? It sounds like when they were 17-year old zit-faced teens, who still knew everything.


I think they made the initial promise when they were teens, and I know they reaffirmed it during that phone call, as he told me that they re-promised each other they would always have a friend that loves them and would be there for them. 

I had him write her a goodbye letter saying he cannot keep that promise to her any longer. It was part of our therapy session. I couldn't send it, though. Her new husband is a bit psychotic, and I feared he would find it and come after my husband.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

hopefulgirl said:


> Re How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair - I read it and did some highlighting that I felt pertained to us/him/me the most, THEN I handed it to my husband and asked him to just read those parts.
> 
> You might do the same, and tell him that while the book's title sounds like it's directed only at people who've had affairs, it really does speak to the general betrayal of trust issue that's at the heart of your problems right now, and reading just the highlighted parts will help him to better understand how to help you heal.


That's an excellent idea. Thank you.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> YEP. He told me they didn't tell each other they love each other still, but did promise to each other "know you will always have a friend that loves you"... ugh. Like he thinks putting the word friend in there makes it all ok.
> 
> We had huge discussions about whether I was "second best" and if he had regrets about how his life turned out, since he didn't end up marrying her. He has over and over again reassured me that their break up was mutual, and he is so happy with how his life turned out and has no regrets that he chose me to marry. He said they fought all the time, and it would have never lasted. He said she had a terrible temper and flirted too much (ya think?).
> 
> I don't think any lie detector test is foolproof, so I have had to try to let this one go. It is yet another thing filed away in my brain, that comes out every now and again to make me doubt if I am really "the one". But I can't answer that question ever, so I must live with the fact that he is with me now, present, and trying to make things work/be happy. What else can I do.


Why did he "just have to know" why her marriage ended? What was he going to do with this knowledge? What meaning or relevance did it have to him and his life? 

Are you sure he doesn't understand why this hurts so much? Admitting to understanding would be admitting to more than he wants to say about his motives. 

His actions are much easier to judge than good words. 

If it was no big deal he wouldn't have hidden it. If it was worth the risk I hope he is happy with the outcome. He didn't consider the risk to you or the marriage enough to make him control his urge.

I think he would fall so like detector test. I think you would find out before the test that be is lying. 

He doesn't have to regret marrying you to consider going after her all these years later. I think he was fishing in a most inappropriate fashion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

4getmenot, I still think the core of your issue (and what you need your H to understand) is not the specific circumstances of this long-ago love and what it might or might not mean to him now. This sounds pretty tame, all things considered. The Big Deal is that he knew this contact would cause you distress but *he did it anyway because he thought he could get away with it.* Ask him in view of this how he expects you to trust him, no matter how big or small the issue?


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Why did he "just have to know" why her marriage ended? What was he going to do with this knowledge? What meaning or relevance did it have to him and his life?


All very good questions, the same ones I asked. His answers were vague and did not make sense to me. He said "it was a continuation of the story". When I asked what the heck that meant, he said they had a 2 to 3 year relationship in their late teens where they were on-again, off-again and this other guy was involved during the breakups, from my understanding. A love triangle. My husband also got kicked out the house when he was 16 and had to fend for himself, and she was put into foster care due to issues with her father - so the two of them "shared tough times together", and it really bonded them. When they broke up it was "mutual" according to him - he knew it would never last because of all the times they had broken up and how much they fought, so he knew it had to happen but it still wasn't something he was happy about. She went back to the other guy. She got engaged again (oh, she had been engaged to the other guy once before, but broke it off for my husband). The second re-engagement happened when my husband had moved away to another state. She tracked him down to call him and tell him she was getting married. He thought she might be trying to give him another chance to fight for her, break them up, but he said he was done, knew it wasn't going anywhere. They both agreed their relationship was over, and were sad, but it was time to move forward.

Fast forward about 10 years to just before we get married. He looks her up via her parents to call and tell her he is getting married b/c "I found the one, I'm good". She tells him "you have my permission" He says that pissed him off b/c that wasn't why he was calling, he just wanted to let her know he was happy (yeah, right? Sounds to me like throwing a bit of salt in the wound since she called him prior to HER marriage. Pathetic games.)

So, it appears they called each other throughout their lives to tell each other about getting married. Then, she gets divorced (hubby cheated on her...YES! I wonder why? LOL Nope, I'm not vindictive). She is about to get re-married and looks my husband up on Facebook. 

Long answer to your question, but not really an answer, right? He just needed to hear why they broke up, to "finish the story". Makes no sense to me. Ask her on private message on facebook if that's really all you wanna know. Yeah, I'll never really know the full story/motivation. Something else I just have to accept and live with. 

When he found out her x cheated on her, he told her she didn't deserve that. Oh yes she did. Maybe if she didn't flirt with other people's husband's her own husband would have stayed true. <yes I have lots of anger still, thanks for a place to vent it!> 





clipclop2 said:


> Are you sure he doesn't understand why this hurts so much? Admitting to understanding would be admitting to more than he wants to say about his motives.


Quite possible. 



clipclop2 said:


> If it was no big deal he wouldn't have hidden it. If it was worth the risk I hope he is happy with the outcome. He didn't consider the risk to you or the marriage enough to make him control his urge.
> 
> I think he would fall so like detector test. I think you would find out before the test that be is lying.
> 
> ...


I still would like to give him the benefit of the doubt, since he has told me so many nitty gritty details in an effort to completely come clean. There are plenty of things he told me that he didn't have to, like the call to her before we got married. However one never knows with 100% confidence. My therapist tells me all I can do know is judge him by his CURRENT behavior and actions...so I am trying to focus on that. It's not easy! Coming back here is stirring me up by recalling all the nitty gritty details for you guys when you ask questions. I feared that earlier, it was too hard for me. But now, I think it is helpful for me. I'm having to state what I have learned from this situation and how I deal with the unknown questions that will always remain. I have to be able to know how to deal with all of that before I can let go, so having to explain my feelings/views is actually quite therapeutic.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Philat said:


> 4getmenot, I still think the core of your issue (and what you need your H to understand) is not the specific circumstances of this long-ago love and what it might or might not mean to him now. This sounds pretty tame, all things considered. The Big Deal is that he knew this contact would cause you distress but *he did it anyway because he thought he could get away with it.* Ask him in view of this how he expects you to trust him, no matter how big or small the issue?


What do you think a good response would be, that would make me feel better at this point? Many times he says "I don't know what you want me to say", and he is right. I don't know what he could say. He feels like all I am doing is rubbing his nose in it...so I'm trying to not re-hash things, which is a challenge for me. What he is DOING is being honest with me about things, trying to show me he isn't hiding anything from me anymore. I know because he has told me stuff (minor) that normally he would have hid to avoid an argument.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> What do you think a good response would be, that would make me feel better at this point? Many times he says "I don't know what you want me to say", and he is right. I don't know what he could say. He feels like all I am doing is rubbing his nose in it...so I'm trying to not re-hash things, which is a challenge for me. What he is DOING is being honest with me about things, trying to show me he isn't hiding anything from me anymore. I know because he has told me stuff (minor) that normally he would have hid to avoid an argument.


OK, then, sounds like you've righted the ship and can move ahead.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Telling you that he called her before you got married is also a way to normalize in calling her again. It's a way of saying well I called it before we got married and I still married see? It doesn't mean anything. 

You keep saying that the things you have to live with and things you have to accept. So I take it that that means that no matter what you will stay married to him. The overall good life that you shared with him makes that sensible. Resigning yourself to the fact that you can't fully trust your husband any longer is very difficult and painful. I'm of the opinion that you can't trust anyone 100 percent. Everyone is fallible everyone has weakness. 

I do have a question for your therapist though. Why is it that you can judge someone by their actions now while disregarding their previous actions? Are they both actions? Don't they both say something about the person and their motives and just thinking and values? In this case it wasn't like you were it perfectly clear about your requirements of his relationship with this woman. His actions were extremely strong in the direction of himself and another woman over you. 

Does your husband have any contact with his rival? 

Some of what your husband said does have some emotional sense. But the only people that I can think of in my life that I could ever possibly do something similar with would be someone that I still had strong feelings for. It be like thinking that it's safe to contact one another because you're getting married or she's getting married. And what I mean by safe is an excusethat you could talk around enough to get people to possibly accept your answer or reason for contacting them. In my life I can only think of one person like that and it is the one person that I wouldn't trust myself to be alone with. And that's the best reason to have no contact with them at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> You keep saying that the things you have to live with and things you have to accept. So I take it that that means that no matter what you will stay married to him. The overall good life that you shared with him makes that sensible.


Well, not no matter what. I told him that he will not get another chance if any type of betrayal occurs again in the future. I told him I will leave the marriage if that happens. It is something I had to promise myself before I could move forward with really trying to put this behind me. It helped, but unfortunately has not been the entire answer for helping me fully let go. 



clipclop2 said:


> I do have a question for your therapist though. Why is it that you can judge someone by their actions now while disregarding their previous actions? Are they both actions? Don't they both say something about the person and their motives and just thinking and values?


Well, she doesn't say to disregard previous actions. However her point is if he is demonstrating by his current actions (going to counseling, showing remorse for his behavior, giving me full access to his accounts, cutting off all ties with the OW, being honest with me) that he is making every effort to change and help us heal, that I cannot discount those current actions by ruminating on what he did. Basically, she is saying, if I have decided to give him a chance, then I need to believe that he IS a changed man. In order to believe that he has changed, I can only judge him on his actions after discovery. She's not saying to blindly trust him and chuck away all that I learned about him. She's saying if I have decided I truly want to reconcile, I have to believe and have hope that he can change. And if I have that hope, I have to look for the behaviors that demonstrate that he has changed. 



clipclop2 said:


> Does your husband have any contact with his rival?


No. 



clipclop2 said:


> Some of what your husband said does have some emotional sense. But the only people that I can think of in my life that I could ever possibly do something similar with would be someone that I still had strong feelings for. It be like thinking that it's safe to contact one another because you're getting married or she's getting married. And what I mean by safe is an excusethat you could talk around enough to get people to possibly accept your answer or reason for contacting them. In my life I can only think of one person like that and it is the one person that I wouldn't trust myself to be alone with. And that's the best reason to have no contact with them at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting you point that out. He admitted he avoided ever being around her after their breakup, b/c he didn't want the temptation that would create. So in his mind, calling her across the country when he was married, she was getting remarried, and making sure they talked about how happy they were with their spouses made the whole conversation justifiable. I agree with you. Why play with fire? There is nothing he can say that justifies having a secret conversation with another woman. If he wouldn't want me to hear what he is talking about, then there is something very wrong with that conversation.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

The content of the discussion is the crux. It was not safe. It was a way to make sure that the connection continues to exist no matter who else is involved in her life. It was like staking claim you know what I mean? 

The door never closes when you do things like that. And he doesn't want the door to close. And neither does she. I think your husband does know the depths of the betrayal but he's done. By what he's told you he is in a way expressing that he loves her and will love her forever. It wasn't just curiosity. It was more than that. When I think of the person I'm talking about in my life I almost don't know what to say. I don't think we could buy that I don't think of him. And I'd love to talk to him to just hear his voice. I think perhaps it's more unfinished business than anything. I don't think I could call it closure because closure could only happen if there's a giant rowand you decide that you hate each other. One of you dying almost wouldn't be sufficient. 

Maybe it's a curiosity about what could have been. But for me at least any contact with also be about wondering if that ship has been completely sailed. I mean it probably has let's face it its a thousand years later. The chance that we'll ever be single at the same time is close to zero. I have no intention of divorcing my husband. And I think when you get right down to it it's probably about sex. I can't really imagine myself in a relationship with him. 

It is difficult to explain. I guess it's just a place in my life that I never moved on from. And I can tell you right now that I feel really guilty telling youthis. My husband knows that I still love this guy in in different ways one of which is obviously very immature. He does feel some jealousy which I think is warranted. And if he ever agreed that it was okay for me to visit with this guy without him present I would have to say that my husband is the craziest person on the planet. I think I sent it to everyone has their weakness and this guy would definitely fall into that category 

I don't know if this makes you feel better or make you feel worse. I guess the problem is that your husband reach out to her. And it's apparent that he did recognize the danger to his own emotions and to your marriage. So in that respect he is lying. And I think that's the point that would cause me a problem because he won't admit that she is a real danger and a real temptation for him. He's reaching out to her was crossing huge maritalline which in other cases talking with other women from his past would not represent. 

It is on fair P this is what he needs to get a needs to close the door on his relationship with that woman. & I think only for doing that laying it completely in the past would you be able to feel safe again.

I wonder if you shared with him my story if it would resonate with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> The content of the discussion is the crux. It was not safe. It was a way to make sure that the connection continues to exist no matter who else is involved in her life. It was like staking claim you know what I mean?
> 
> The door never closes when you do things like that. And he doesn't want the door to close. And neither does she. I think your husband does know the depths of the betrayal but he's done. By what he's told you he is in a way expressing that he loves her and will love her forever. It wasn't just curiosity. It was more than that. When I think of the person I'm talking about in my life I almost don't know what to say. I don't think we could buy that I don't think of him. And I'd love to talk to him to just hear his voice. I think perhaps it's more unfinished business than anything. I don't think I could call it closure because closure could only happen if there's a giant rowand you decide that you hate each other. One of you dying almost wouldn't be sufficient.


Well, he did say he was sorry he brought his "baggage" into our life, that he had "unfinished business" and the conversation gave him "closure". But he couldn't (probably more like wouldn't?) put into words just exactly what that unfinished business was. No matter how much I hounded him. So now I guess that leaves me with unfinished business, b/c I will never truly know the "why" for sure. I feel he is keeping more of the conversation from me, but I'm afraid to know the rest of it, honestly. It hurts so much just knowing the depth of the connection they have - after 30 years apart - to want to call and talk to each other. 



clipclop2 said:


> I don't know if this makes you feel better or make you feel worse. I guess the problem is that your husband reach out to her. And it's apparent that he did recognize the danger to his own emotions and to your marriage. So in that respect he is lying. And I think that's the point that would cause me a problem because he won't admit that she is a real danger and a real temptation for him. He's reaching out to her was crossing huge maritalline which in other cases talking with other women from his past would not represent.


Well, it makes me feel worse. I mean who wants to admit the man they have loved for 20 years didn't love them back quite the same way, b/c someone else always held a little corner of their heart. It's the cold hard reality, and it kills me to know this. It does make me feel like I was living a lie, even though a part of me knows he deeply loves me, so I know saying my life is a "lie" is too harsh. But I am hurting so much because of this.

If you can, I recommend you find a way finish your "unfinished business" in your heart and let this guy go. Let the past be the past. It is so unfair to the spouse who is fully emotionally commited. I wish my husband had resolved his issues before marrying me. I regret that he married me while not being fully over her. I let every one of my past loves go. I thought he did, too. It was unfair of him to do this to me, and then to reconnect to her after all these years. Why oh why. I so wish I just never knew. So wish. 

He does say now that she is the only one of his past girlfriends that could have propelled him into betraying me. And he agreed to me sending a letter to her new husband asking if he knew something more than I know, so that I could have some closure in feeling that is was no more than a phone call. I hold onto that decision from him as a sign that he was ready to let her go, b/c bringing her new husband into this surely would make further communication between them even riskier for them. He has promised if she ever tries to contact him again he will immediately contact me and let me decide what to write back. He says even if he and I break up he would never want to end up back with her, b/c of the damage his reconnection with her has done to our marriage. He said he wants her completely out of our lives, forever. He said this whole experience has made him realize how NOT important she is compared to me. He said there is no comparison between the love he felt for her and the love he has for me. 

I know it's all words (and the action of letting me write the new husband), but it is all I've got. My choices at this point are:

1) believe he truly did get closure and he no longer feels he has unfinished business with her. Believe that he realizes it was a fantasy, something that made him feel young again - not true love...that he realizes the love we have is based on years of amazing memories and sacrifice for each other - that THAT is true love.

OR

2) believe that he will always secretly love her, and that even though he loves me deeply, I am second best. 

I cannot prove it is #1 nor #2. So what do I do? Leave because I might not be #1? If I did that, even if I found someone else who professed I was the love of their life, #1, I will never believe it now. And the other huge piece of this is, even if I am #2 in his heart, he is still #1 in my heart, despite all of this. The man has stood by my side through so much with me (taking care of me during the last two years of cancer treatment). He has shown me how much he loves me. When I think about what he has done for me, I think I must be crazy to question his love for me and devotion to me. So I let myself believe, as much as I can, that he truly got closure and is over her. And even if he didn't, I love him so much for all he is (despite his bad actions) and has done for me that I am willing to be #2, even though it hurts to think that. 




clipclop2 said:


> It is on fair P this is what he needs to get a needs to close the door on his relationship with that woman. & I think only for doing that laying it completely in the past would you be able to feel safe again.
> 
> I wonder if you shared with him my story if it would resonate with him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am hoping by letting me write her new husband that letter the door is now closed. As much as it can be in this day and age...we all know people will find a way to communicate if they really want to. I don't know that there is much else I can do on this one. I think your story probably would resonate with him, but I can't see how it would help me to know that. :scratchhead:


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## Tover26 (Oct 29, 2011)

20 years of being faithful and he contacts an old friend... provided I knew my wife was thinking about doing this and was transparent about her reasons, I would want to know why and what they said. 

I think the Why is killing you. 

Why - because he was in love with her and part of that stayed with him. I don't think it diminishes you. I have some girlfriends from high school and college that, if they contacted me, I would want to talk with them... nothing romantic but time passes and sometimes friendship and fondness remains. I don't think it diminishes anything in the marriage, with the exception that he tried to hide it. I wouldn't have. I would have invited my wife to listen in on the phone call. 

The hiding and the lies beggar the Why question and suggest other lies waiting. Be firm. Don't overreact. If he's been a loving spouse for 20 years, why toss this in his face? Unless this is your line in the sand and this is the battle you're going to die over... one of the differences in your posts is that I'm seeing a lot of anger and agony on par with a full-blown A being revealed.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Hi 4getmenot. I will reply to your post sometime later today. I don't want to do it from my phone because I think this is important and posts from my phone are often... unintelligible.

Chin up, ok?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

Tover26 said:


> Why - because he was in love with her and part of that stayed with him. I don't think it diminishes you. I have some girlfriends from high school and college that, if they contacted me, I would want to talk with them... nothing romantic but time passes and sometimes friendship and fondness remains. I don't think it diminishes anything in the marriage, with the exception that he tried to hide it. I wouldn't have. I would have invited my wife to listen in on the phone call.


Yes, if he had done that the secrecy factor would have been gone. Would I have liked him talking to her? To be completely honest, no. I don't like the fact that he still cares for her. And, I saw in their chat how she flirted with him and talked about not forgetting their "forever promise" to each other. My husband called me in to witness that chat. He knew I needed to be in the room for that. After seeing that interaction, I didn't want them to have any communication outside of facebook. I don't think that was unreasonable given the interaction I witnessed between them. But if he absolutely insisted, I would have tolerated it, as long as I was able to be there and hear the conversation. I'm sure part of him sneaking behind my back was to avoid an argument with me. But, I think he knew the conversation might stray somewhere he didn't want me to witness/hear. So now all I have is what he told me and my terrible imagination. 



Tover26 said:


> The hiding and the lies beggar the Why question and suggest other lies waiting. Be firm. Don't overreact. If he's been a loving spouse for 20 years, why toss this in his face? Unless this is your line in the sand and this is the battle you're going to die over... one of the differences in your posts is that I'm seeing a lot of anger and agony on par with a full-blown A being revealed.


There are other lies I discovered once this came out in the open. They weren't about other women, but they were lies nonetheless. All to avoid an argument with me. I have pointed out to him that he cannot use this as his coping strategy to avoid an argument with me. He has agreed, says he no longer will do this and will just "man up. If I wanna do something, I'm gonna do it." He has a big thing about being controlled, and yes I realize I can be controlling. So it's not all his fault, of course. I realize my reactions and behaviors play a role, too. 

I realize this is not a full-blown A. On the scale of betrayal, this is so mild compared to the stories of what I have read here. So why am I reacting stronger than I'm guessing most women would (or am I?)...I've thought about that. I think it is because
our relationship was incredible before this, and it was due to the fact that I had total trust in him and absolutely adored him. We rarely fought, and he just seemed like the perfect man to me, for all those years. I had him up on a pedestal - way high. We talked about how lucky we were to still be so happy together, how we knew our relationship was special, and we felt so blessed. I think because everything seemed perfect, so good - when I see now that things weren't what I thought they were - I am devastated. 

I think it is different when you have problems in your marriage already and then a betrayal happens. You've already had some disappointment in your spouse, so it would be easier to not be as floored by the mild betrayal I experienced. Your expectations would have been lower to start with, if that makes sense.

He exceeded my expectations for a husband for 20+ years. I used to say all the time what a lucky girl I was. I would post things like that on facebook, even though I knew it was sappy...it was true! And now I see part of what I believed and admired wasn't true...can you see now why this is so difficult for me? 

I know I am being hard on him. I don't like this about myself. I am just so incredibly disappointed. I thought I had the perfect relationslhip, the perfect husband - we were unbelievably happy. I know no one is perfect, but we had it pretty damned near there. 

Oh well I'm sure I sound like quite the crazy woman now. LOL But at least I can be honest here without hurting anyone. I appreciate a place outside of IC where I can vent and say what is really on my mind. 

Another reason I think my reaction is so strong is because my husband and I had agreed to a "zero tolerance" policy. Any time we heard of other couples cheating/betraying, we would reaffirm to each other that if either of us did this to the other, it was OVER. NO SECOND CHANCES. We made it very clear to each other. It gave us such a feeling of extra security. My husband even would say that someday in the afterlife when I look back at his actions when I wasn't around I would see nothing that would upset me. And then I find out he did have something to hide regarding another woman. I just believed so hard in all that he said.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Yes, if he had done that the secrecy factor would have been gone. Would I have liked him talking to her? To be completely honest, no. I don't like the fact that he still cares for her. And, I saw in their chat how she flirted with him and talked about not forgetting their "forever promise" to each other. My husband called me in to witness that chat. He knew I needed to be in the room for that. After seeing that interaction, I didn't want them to have any communication outside of facebook. I don't think that was unreasonable given the interaction I witnessed between them. But if he absolutely insisted, I would have tolerated it, as long as I was able to be there and hear the conversation. I'm sure part of him sneaking behind my back was to avoid an argument with me. But, I think he knew the conversation might stray somewhere he didn't want me to witness/hear. So now all I have is what he told me and my terrible imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fwiw I think you being hard on him could possibly save you more trouble down the line. .If it had just been over and done with what's to stop him from continuing to pursue? He already went behind your back with what he knew was inappropriate so clearly he has it in him. Come down hard and fast with real consequences so he knows exactly what it's going to cost him. One of the issues a lot of betrayed spouses have is that they pu$$y foot around this stuff so their partner slides right down the slope, knowing that the bs will be upset but in the end isn't going anywhere.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nothingtodeclare (Apr 13, 2013)

I believe way too much time has been spent worrying about this lie. You correctly layed it down to him hard after he lied and have now learned that your relationship is not as special as you thought. Most folks find that out one way or another eventually. Life is way too short to make yourself sick over this. Go have fun and live your life. If he screws it up again, that's on him. Please curb the controlling behavior, so he feels you are a partner and not someone waiting to disclipline him for the next infraction.


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

nothingtodeclare said:


> I believe way too much time has been spent worrying about this lie. You correctly layed it down to him hard after he lied and have now learned that your relationship is not as special as you thought. Most folks find that out one way or another eventually. Life is way too short to make yourself sick over this. Go have fun and live your life. If he screws it up again, that's on him. Please curb the controlling behavior, so he feels you are a partner and not someone waiting to disclipline him for the next infraction.



I agree with all that you have said. I don't want to ruin whatever time I have left ruminating on this. I think the big stumbling block for me has been that I kept wishing for our old relationship back, kept thinking if I just worked harder in therapy on myself and on "forgiveness", or maybe if he said just the right thing, I could really let it go and could feel the magic of our relationship again, the way it was before all of this.

Unfortunately even if I fully forgive him I will never get my innocent view of him back. There is nothing he can say or do to make me see him the way I saw him before I knew he has the potential to betray my trust. I'm finally coming to accept that. But in order to accept that, I have had to grieve what I have lost. God, I admired him so much. 

We don't have the fairy tale any more and never will. But what we do have is still very special. I stil believe he is an amazing man and is very devoted to me. I am just going to try to accept what we have lost while appreciating what we still have left. This is a slow process of grieving and moving towards acceptance of the new "us".


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Well I wish you the best and I.hope you two can move forward. Just remember that he knew you wouldn't like it and "begged" to be able to be friends with her anyway. That tells you that having her in his life was worth making you uncomfortable and is not the actions of someone truly committed to their marriage. Or maybe it's someone that just assumed his marriage wasn't going anywhere. Perhaps he's learned his lesson and reviewed his priorities; I hope for your sake he has.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Yes. On the whole, I have to say yes.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Forget me not I'm almost done with my response but I'm wondering if posting it would you prolong your recovery from this. 

If you think about it for what it really is right now you have a more realistic relationship then you ever had. If he was avoiding things that would upset you then you've never really known all of him. Letting go of the fantasy for something that's real I would think would be scary but would also bring you closer. He doesn't have to hide this part of him anymore. 

Let me know if you want me to post. Even if you don't it hasn't been a waste of time for me. As both an intellectual exercise and exercise in self reflection it has been soluble.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Soluble? Valuable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

clipclop2 said:


> Forget me not I'm almost done with my response but I'm wondering if posting it would you prolong your recovery from this.
> 
> If you think about it for what it really is right now you have a more realistic relationship then you ever had. If he was avoiding things that would upset you then you've never really known all of him. Letting go of the fantasy for something that's real I would think would be scary but would also bring you closer. He doesn't have to hide this part of him anymore.
> 
> ...


Go ahead and post clip clop. I'm sure it will upset me, but if it still upsets me that means I still have stuff to process. Who am I kidding. I know I still have some grieving to do. There was something else that happened recently that opened my eyes even wider, and caused me to retrigger everything all over again. I've been too upset to post about it, but I think I am ready now. 

Recently we were hanging out with another couple we have been friends with for a few years. Everyone had been drinking quite a bit. The wife proceeds to ask us if we have ever had a 3some, then shares that she and her hubby have (FFM). We were all standing in the kitchen together. Before I know it I see my husband rubbing my friend's back seductively. I immediately call him out on it. Big discussion ensues. He admits he was trying to encourage a 3some to happen. So he gets credit for being honest, but this whole thing has freaked me out.

Nothing happened (I shut it down), but my husband said some really freaky stuff to me that night when we were alone. Like he wouldn't have had a problem with the OM doing oral sex on me "because he is such a good friend", and he would have enjoyed doing that with the OW, too. Then he gets really angry with me and says "Why can't you just let your freaky side out and enjoy something with me?" 

The next day he initially was defensive and angry, said we should be "flatterred" that they were interested in us (we are both about 10-12 years older than them, they are a very attractive couple). Says it was just a crazy situation that he never expected to happen "At 50, these things just don't happen", and basically the opportunity was presenting itself so he had to go for it.

Later on and since he has done a total turn around, said he is very very sorry for all of his actions and words and is glad I stopped the entire thing from happening b/c of all the damage it would have done to our friendship with them (like it hasn't already?) and how much it would have messed my head up farther. He says I am more than enough woman for him. The whole thing though makes me realize our morals are not the same. 

I will be honest and say that we have talked about the FFM thing as a fantasy, but I never thought it would actually happen. There was a situation in the past where another couple was doing something similar, and I refused to do anything with the girl. They left the room and my husband got SO mad at me. Again, saying why can't I just relax and enjoy myself. So when they came back in the room and the guys egged us on again, I kissed her. So I must take some blame in this situation for never clearly setting the boundary...so I cannot totally freak out on him...but nonetheless, it has triggered me regarding this other whole situation all over again. 

Anyways, there it is.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Go ahead and post clip clop. I'm sure it will upset me, but if it still upsets me that means I still have stuff to process. Who am I kidding. I know I still have some grieving to do. There was something else that happened recently that opened my eyes even wider, and caused me to retrigger everything all over again. I've been too upset to post about it, but I think I am ready now.
> 
> Recently we were hanging out with another couple we have been friends with for a few years. Everyone had been drinking quite a bit. The wife proceeds to ask us if we have ever had a 3some, then shares that she and her hubby have (FFM). We were all standing in the kitchen together. Before I know it I see my husband rubbing my friend's back seductively. I immediately call him out on it. Big discussion ensues. He admits he was trying to encourage a 3some to happen. So he gets credit for being honest, but this whole thing has freaked me out.
> 
> ...


So you allowed him to bully you into something you didn't want. See where this is going? Your hb wants a sex life beyond you; the whole thing about you being woman enough is a lie. He's sorry you got upset and he wants your marriage, but he also wants third parties. Maybe he's freaking out now that he's getting older, but getting angry at you for not allowing third parties in is a really bad sign. It's also a sign that he doesn't particularly respect you. He's at high risk for cheating right now. Sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> So you allowed him to bully you into something you didn't want. See where this is going? Your hb wants a sex life beyond you; the whole thing about you being woman enough is a lie. He's sorry you got upset and he wants your marriage, but he also wants third parties. Maybe he's freaking out now that he's getting older, but getting angry at you for not allowing third parties in is a really bad sign. It's also a sign that he doesn't particularly respect you. He's at high risk for cheating right now. Sorry.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



He tells me it would never happen unless I was there...says "you were in the room, I did it right in front of you. It's not like I was trying to do this behind your back. I was just trying to coax things along, but you weren't into it, so that's ok" 

Since I already have a trust issue from the initial betrayal/lies, I don't believe what he says. I wonder what would happen if he were really drunk, his morals and commitment to me would probably be forgotten, b/c he loves excitement and "danger". He never thinks anything bad is going to happen and definitely is a risk taker. So yes, I am concerned. I've told him I am concerned for these very reasons. He continues to strongly state he would never do anything behind my back, and now doesn't even want this to happen b/c he sees how bad the consequences would be for us. 

<sigh>


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> He tells me it would never happen unless I was there...says "you were in the room, I did it right in front of you. It's not like I was trying to do this behind your back. I was just trying to coax things along, but you weren't into it, so that's ok"
> 
> Since I already have a trust issue from the initial betrayal/lies, I don't believe what he says. I wonder what would happen if he were really drunk, his morals and commitment to me would probably be forgotten, b/c he loves excitement and "danger". He never thinks anything bad is going to happen and definitely is a risk taker. So yes, I am concerned. I've told him I am concerned for these very reasons. He continues to strongly state he would never do anything behind my back, and now doesn't even want this to happen b/c he sees how bad the consequences would be for us.
> 
> <sigh>


I'm sorry, I know this painful. He's full of sheet, he's bullying, not coaxing. Coaxing you along means approaching you privately which is a safe place. Instead he chose to put you on the spot where you would feel pressured into doing what he wanted. And then on top of that he got really angry at you right there, which resulted in you being bullied into something you didn't want. Doesn't sound like something such a great guy would do. And thanks to his high school gf you already know he'll go behind your back. I would bet he's thinking about how he can get what he wants and still keep your marriage. Sit him down when you're both calm and tell him exactly what you will and won't tolerate and what the consequences of violating your boundaries are. Maybe this is a phase he'll come out of. I just have to ask: you know he wants a threesome with another woman, does letting your freaky side out include you f!cking another man? Or is it just for his desires?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anuvia (Jul 10, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, he didn't really do anything wrong. You created unreasonable conditions regarding contact with someone from the distant past, and knowing you were irrational about this, took a chance and had an innocent conversation. Given your nature, I can understand you feel hurt and betrayed. He also made a mistake in agreeing to your stipulations rather than honestly and assertively refusing to comply.
> 
> I don't feel this should be a huge deal, but that's me - obviously it is to you and he is feeling cornered. Clearly you didn't trust him in the first place by limiting his ability to connect with old friends. Do you really think that after 18 years he's with you that he's going to be tempted to take up with a high school gf?
> 
> Perhaps I'm being harsh, and maybe there is something more to the story that you haven't provided.


:iagree:


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## Anuvia (Jul 10, 2013)

All this over a phone call?  Poor guy.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Anuvia said:


> All this over a phone call?  Poor guy.



Please read her last couple of posts. Way more going on here then a phone call. And said phone call was way beyond just catching up with a "friend". Poor guy my behind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I just have to ask: you know he wants a threesome with another woman, does letting your freaky side out include you f!cking another man? Or is it just for his desires?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I asked him that. I told him I could have had sex with the OM that night if I wanted to and asked him how that would have made him feel (and let me say, yes, he is hot, but I have boundaries and put the marriage first). Initially he said he wasn't sure, but might have been ok with it "since he's such a good friend." OMG? That really made me feel like "who is this man?" And then later on, after thinking about it a while, he said, "Yeah, I do think I would have had a real problem with it the next day...just when I was drunk I might have felt it would be ok b/c we were all just enjoying ourselves and having a freaky night. But the next day I would have had a real problem with it. I'm so glad you stopped it from happening. I am so, so sorry." I pointed out to him that it was a double standard that he would think I should be ok with him f*cking her. He got it, but it had to be pounded into his head. 

I had a hard time just typing that. I still feel he is a good man, so it is hard for me to write something that obviously makes him sound really bad. This man would do anything, and I mean anything, for me. You would not believe all that he has done for me, especially in the past two years since my cancer diagnosis. I am so confused. 

I really think he has this wild side to him that he has repressed since committing to me. He had a very wild sex life prior to meeting me. Lots of women, but never a FFM threesome. He has told me that when he married me he knew he was putting that side of his life away, and he doesn't regret doing that one bit. But apparently exciting situations like this bring that side of him to the surface. Add some alcohol and the inhibitions are lowered. Scary.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> I asked him that. I told him I could have had sex with the OM that night if I wanted to and asked him how that would have made him feel (and let me say, yes, he is hot, but I have boundaries and put the marriage first). Initially he said he wasn't sure, but might have been ok with it "since he's such a good friend." OMG? That really made me feel like "who is this man?" And then later on, after thinking about it a while, he said, "Yeah, I do think I would have had a real problem with it the next day...just when I was drunk I might have felt it would be ok b/c we were all just enjoying ourselves and having a freaky night. But the next day I would have had a real problem with it. I'm so glad you stopped it from happening. I am so, so sorry." I pointed out to him that it was a double standard that he would think I should be ok with him f*cking her. He got it, but it had to be pounded into his head.
> 
> I had a hard time just typing that. I still feel he is a good man, so it is hard for me to write something that obviously makes him sound really bad. This man would do anything, and I mean anything, for me. You would not believe all that he has done for me, especially in the past two years since my cancer diagnosis. I am so confused.
> 
> I really think he has this wild side to him that he has repressed since committing to me. He had a very wild sex life prior to meeting me. Lots of women, but never a FFM threesome. He has told me that when he married me he knew he was putting that side of his life away, and he doesn't regret doing that one bit. But apparently exciting situations like this bring that side of him to the surface. Add some alcohol and the inhibitions are lowered. Scary.


Maybe next time you should f&ck the hb.  Just kidding, or am I? You sound pretty sharp and not particularly gullible. That will serve you well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe next time you should f&ck the hb.  Just kidding, or am I? You sound pretty sharp and not particularly gullible. That will serve you well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Ha ha ha. You crack me up! And thanks.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Ok. Your husband didn't disappoint you just over the woman. You really are questioning his love and loyalty. 

That you ever opened the door to a 3-some is a huge part of the problem. He wants to have sex with other women and his going behind your back to this old girlfriend made it very clear that he is very capable of cheating on you... of not only wanting sex with another but following through. 

Has he cheated in the past? 

If you think he hasn't, are there any times you wondered because something didn't add up n

What I have to share with you becomes irrelevant of the issue isn't really this unfinished business thing. 

There is unfinished business and then this. 

For people who don't get what is going on here they can agree to not get it and not post. I think we are finding that you have focused on something that represents a lot more than the actual event. 

Did you talk about the threesome issue in therapy n


I would have killed my husband of he touched another woman sexually. But then I never would have indulged the idea for my husband either. 

I wouldn't be able to get over this. Your husband acts like a cheater.
Sometimes so called nice guys are not really nice. Your husband may use this kind of thing asap way of rebelling against you being so controlling. 

I don't know of he had cheated in the past. I hope he doesn't travel for his job because I would be inclined to believe he probably had. 

I think you guys could use more therapy. Your husband may just be an idiot. He may be honesty about his desire to sleep with another woman but only with your knowledge and he might not. 

You know him best. I would do a lie detector test. I know you don't want that but that's how I would go. 

I will put the othe response up of you still want but I don't think it is really on point anymore. You are doubting him a lot more than about her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

If he doesn't regret plugging that side of him away you wouldn't have a story to tell us.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

The threesome event just happened 2 weeks ago. I have talked about it in my IC, but we are no longer in MC. He refused to do more than 6 sessions for the "just a phone call" issue last spring.

I just had my afternoon IC. Before I left he came downstairs and wished me well. He said he will not be giving me any more reasons to need therapy..."You are the most important thing in the world to me, and I'm not going to screw up again." He held my face in his hands and kissed me. And then later I got a text from him saying "have I told you how much I love you lately?" 

I've been pretty down and out the past 2 weeks. Not angry, not arguing, just sad. I think he can see how much this new incident has made me question everything all over again. It just reminded me that there are sides to him I have never seen clearly...denial? I put him way up on a pedestal, perhaps unfairly...but that is truly how I saw him. So he fell a long ways when I discovered he lied to me.

He is remorseful. That is all I know right now. Everything else is a big question mark. Does he really want sex with someone else, or was it just an animalistic impulse that came out because he was drunk? And yes, I know I opened Pandora's box by going along with the "fantasy". That is why I cannot judge him too harshly. I can actually get over this 3some incident easier than the phone call. The 3some incident was done openly in front of me, with no denial of his intent, and was about excitement, sex, etc. when we were all quite drunk. The phone call was hidden from me, completely against my wishes, to an old love that was way more important to him than I ever realized. Done cold sober, planned out. There is a huge emotional connection between the two of them. I had totally underestimated how important she was (is?) to him. I didn't want to believe it. He tells me now that due to seeing the damage it has done to us he has realized how NOT important she is compared to me. He says "what have I done? I'm so afraid the damage I have done to us is irrepairable" "I have tainted us."

When he says things like that, I again see huge remorse and learning from his behavior. This is what makes me want to hang in there.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

He touched another woman with the hope of getting to duck her. It may have been in front of you but he didn'tclear it with you. 

He shouldn't drink if he takes a suggestion by another person and starts acting on it without consideration. 

How much don't you know? You caught the phone call. What haven't you caught? Have you gone over cell records and his internet history? 

He absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt wants to have sex with other women. I would have to divorced him but that's me. Touching that woman would be unforgivable. 

You only seem concerned about an emotional attachment with the woman. Do you not care if he wants to have sex with someone else? 

Want to find out the truth? Do the lie detector. 

He wants to have sex with another woman so bad he wasnt going to let a little thing like you're feelings get in his way of initiating and touching that woman. 

God. 2 weeks ago? 

He is remorseful that you are starting to see the guy that he really is. 

If you told him to call up that couple and arrange a foursome I bet he would go for it. You can say you thought out over and can see much it means to him. Evade any questions about how you would like it. Tell him you don't want to have sex with the other woman do it would have to be either a MMF with them or a foursome. You agree not top let the OM duck you. Just touching and oral. 

Mention a date. Like, we aren't doing anything Friday. Maybe then. Tell him you have to go somewhere and for him to think about what he wants to do. 

On second thought don't tell him to call them. You are just talking about it and indicating interest maybe a date. You can talk more later. Just stay gone a good long time. 

Then look at the phone calls to the other couple. The longer you are out of the house the better. It will give him time to think about it and his big head that is telling him to talk to you more will be nudged by his little head and his inability to control himself will be higher. 

See what he does. 

You didn't answer the questions about whether he has cheated or ever was in a situation that didn't add up that could have been about cheating. 

His willingness to do anything for you includes letting you have sex with another man. That isn't cool to me. 
I think all of the reassurance he has given you is bull. Two weeks ago would never have happened without it. Don't be surprised if they had already discussed it with him without your knowledge
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

4getmenot said:


> Well, he did say he was sorry he brought his "baggage" into our life, that he had "unfinished business" and the conversation gave him "closure". But he couldn't (probably more like wouldn't?) put into words just exactly what that unfinished business was. No matter how much I hounded him. So now I guess that leaves me with unfinished business, b/c I will never truly know the "why" for sure. I feel he is keeping more of the conversation from me, but I'm afraid to know the rest of it, honestly. It hurts so much just knowing the depth of the connection they have -after 30 years apart - to want to call and talk to each other.


Since she wasn't a complete putz to him, and he told her "always" it is doubtful the conversation gave him closure.

My best guess: If it closure arrived at all, it would have been when he was slapped in the face with what he just risked for her. If that happened I would characterize it as "when I became a man I put away childish things." (EDIT: But now that I know about the last 2 weeks, I have to say he hasn't put away childish things. Sorry.)



4getmenot said:


> Well, it makes me feel worse. I mean who wants to admit the man they have loved for 20 years didn't love them back quite the same way, b/c someone else always held a little corner of their heart. It's the cold hard reality, and it kills me to know this. It does make me feel like I was living a lie, even though a part of me knows he deeply loves me, so I know saying my life is a "lie" is too harsh. But I am hurting so much because of this.


Other than in an ideal world, do you believe that any relationships exist where the partners love one another the same way and in the same amount? Logically, you probably don't.

Time didn't begin for either of you when you met. You have memories (that may even be associated with a person) that he can never fully appreciate. Your connections may not rise to the level of his with this woman. But connections to your past do exist.

I totally get the sadness and jealousy. I want to be the only woman in the world. I've been trying to arrange it but it is complicated and requires a lot of planning. Execution is going to be a b*tch. ;-)



4getmenot said:


> If you can, I recommend you find a way finish your "unfinished business" in your heart and let this guy go. Let the past be the past. It is so unfair to the spouse who is fully emotionally committed. I wish my husband had resolved his issues before marrying me. I regret that he married me while not being fully over her. I let every one of my past loves go. I thought he did, too. It was unfair of him to do this to me, and then to reconnect to her after all these years. Why oh why. I so wish I just never knew. So wish.


There was a thread asking if someone who lost a spouse ever stops loving them even after they remarry. I will admit I didn't read it. I think the answer is individual but I think more likely than not, if the marriage was good, they continue to love them.

The problem here is that your husband channeled the dead. He didn't leave it alone.

I'm finding it difficult to understand what you mean by finishing my unfinished business in my heart and letting this guy go. I think of him with love and gratitude and much fondness. He has never done anything to deserve anything different. If that is one of your requirements then I don't think your husband will be able to do that any better than I can. It is what it is. That simple, stupid phrase sums it up. It is. To change it would require something occur in the future. It dawns on me that this is probably another reason why unfinished business cannot be finished. The risk is not only to our now but to the memory we have held so dear for so long.

My unfinished business does relate to sex. It is a very deeply emotional thing but it is also physical. The reason we didn't do anything back then was because of our love for one another --it would have been far dumber to do something then than it would now and I'm glad we cared about each other that much. If it had worked out any other way it would not have caused me to feel as I do now.

What didn't happen and not knowing is the sticking point for me. So long as I never find out, I will always wonder. My desire to know has never exceeded my good sense. If it does, I hope his good sense smacks mine around.



4getmenot said:


> He does say now that she is the only one of his past girlfriends that could have propelled him into betraying me.


Well, that's a painful truth. But could have is not the same as would have. The temptation would have been very strong. But that doesn't mean he would give in to it. (EDIT: RE last two weeks -- I have serious doubts about his ability to control himself in her presence.)

The best thing is to avoid temptation in the first place. He should have spoken with her in front of you or not spoken with her at all. And since he couldn't say the things he really wanted to say to her in front of you, he should not have spoken to her at all. That would have been avoiding temptation. He was tempted. He gave in.



4getmenot said:


> And he agreed to me sending a letter to her new husband asking if he knew something more than I know, so that I could have some closure in feeling that is was no more than a phone call. I hold onto that decision from him as a sign that he was ready to let her go, b/c bringing her new husband into this surely would make further communication between them even riskier for them.


Forget this letter idea. It would prove nothing and would introduce contention into her new marriage. I don't think her being single would help you feel secure again.

I also suspect your husband knows you wouldn't do it. Past that, he couldn't stop you if you wanted to do it just as you couldn't stop him calling her.

His agreement is meaningless overall.

(Edit: In light of the foursome thing: From whom did you learn that her new man is a bit psychotic? That's something a lot of waywards say to their BS to make them feel guilty for thinking of "ratting" on the OM/OW. It is cheater talk. It is very concerning. The new husband may really be crazy but I'd want someone you trust to corroborate that statement before I'd put any stock in it.)



4getmenot said:


> ... if she ever tries to contact him again he will immediately contact me and let me decide what to write back. He says even if he and I break up he would never want to end up back with her, b/c of the damage his reconnection with her has done to our marriage. He said he wants her completely out of our lives, forever. He said this whole experience has made him realize how NOT important she is compared to me. He said there is no comparison between the love he felt for her and the love he has for me.


He might not want to end up with her but it would probably be for the same reasons they didn't continue dating rather than any damage "she" did to your marriage. He did the damage. Is he really taking ownership of this if he's sloughing it off on her?

Or, is he just telling you things he knows you want to hear because you want to hear that he'd never be with her no matter what happens in your future? If you are putting words in his mouth or making him talk until he says just the right thing he'll eventually stumble on what you want to hear if he's not totally stupid. This is the danger in badgering someone over something like this. Nice guys want to avoid conflict. He can't deny what he's done. But he can tell you what you want to hear trying to avoid further conflict.

There's a lot about stating he'd *never* want to end up with her that bothers me. He didn't say "I will never end up with her..." but "I would never want to end up back with her.", correct? If my husband would say something like that I'd ask him if it rules out one-offs or a short-term thing with no future. What kind of relationship is excluded? What isn't?

And if he promised, gave me an absolute, I'd never believe it. You can't make promises like that.

So, this, like the offer to talk to her new husband, is not something you can use to make any kind of judgment about his feelings/intentions.

(EDIT: Further, he'd have no obligation to you if you split up. I've heard BSs tell us that their wayward told them the same thing only for it to turn out to be a bunch of bull in the end. They were with the other person the entire time reassuring their spouse how much they can't stand the idea of being with the person they are cheating with. That doesn't mean your husband has/is cheating with her. It just means that he is using cheater talk again. Some of it you are pushing him toward. It is what you want to hear. But it can also be more than that. The number of things that smack me as cheater talk are starting to really bother me but it could be just him trying desperately to get out of the mess he has created.)



4getmenot said:


> He said this whole experience has made him realize how NOT important she is compared to me. He said there is no comparison between the love he felt for her and the love he has for me.


That sounds honest. I'm sure he hasn't compared you in the past. Now that you've found out about the depths of his relationship with her, his two worlds collided. Only now has he had to really compare you and his history with you trumps his history with her. It is longer. Richer. His marriage to you is full of facts and memories that occurred in real life.

About contact: If she ever contacts him, the right answer is to tell you and for neither of you to respond. Any contact perpetuates the relationship no matter the nature of the contact -- good, bad, indifferent. She does not exist. Don't tell him that. Let him think you might respond to her.

<snip>



4getmenot said:


> 1) believe he truly did get closure and he no longer feels he has unfinished business with her. Believe that he realizes it was a fantasy, something that made him feel young again - not true love...that he realizes the love we have is based on years of amazing memories and sacrifice for each other - that THAT is true love.


If he is anything like me, it has nothing to do with feeling young again. It is purely about their relationship and his feelings about it. I don't think unfinished business is really about the past. I think this is about unresolved feelings about something that didn't happen and the open-ended nature of the future.

Look at this example: Someone is the victim of a horrible crime as a young person. They feel justice was never served. They can reason with themselves that to exact justice, however they envision it, would be wrong. But they feel a piece of their life puzzle is missing without it.

People don't like missing puzzle pieces.

This thread is testament to that. We want the world to be just and to make sense. People are masters at creating contradictory thoughts and feelings. We have trouble reconciling our own contradictory thoughts, but we have a lot more trouble when someone ELSE creates them because we can't get inside their head to know what they are really thinking.

And I don't think this is about the nature of love, true or otherwise. I think you are putting words into his mouth when you use the word "true love". His love for her is no less true than his for you. (It is what it is.) What it is *not* is as meaningful as the love he feels for you. It is not as strong as the happiness he has experienced being married to you. It is not as immediate and present. But it is. It isn't a light switch that you can turn off.



4getmenot said:


> OR 2) believe that he will always secretly love her, and that even though he loves me deeply, I am second best. I cannot prove it is #1 nor #2. So what do I do? Leave because I might not be #1?


You might be second. You might not. My first impression was that this was the case. I'm not so sure right now. Examining my own feelings shows me it isn't so cut and dry.

If he really broke up with her, he chose a future without her. Maybe he wished it didn't have to be that way. Probably. But that's the way it was and that's the way it is. It was what it was and is what it is. If you think about this in terms of the example where the person was harmed but did not get justice, that person had reality thrust on them. Your husband chose his reality and chose his future. That doesn't mean he couldn't be conflicted about it. But it means he made a choice and stuck with it.

Here is a thought experiment: What if you had been there first? What if he had met you before her? Would she be more than a blip in his memory?

I wish like heck he hadn't reached out to her and cast doubt on his thoughts, feelings and beliefs about reality. But at the same time, now you know him better than you ever did before. The examination of your lives and your marriage is difficult but it is also enlightening. There is a part of him that is no longer a secret to you. He carried it alone for a long time and with it I am certain there was a lot of guilt. Guilt creates distance between people. The guilt he is experiencing now is different and it will be replaced with something better as you work through this.

(EDIT: I have doubts about what I wrote in the previous paragraph now. I felt he was sincere until the threesome (foursome) thing was disclosed. When I viewed him through the filter of my own "unfinished business" I could see how he'd have trouble explaining it to you. It made me think he is being honest and is probably trustworthy. That feeling has passed.)



4getmenot said:


> I did that, even if I found someone else who professed I was the love of their life, #1, I will never believe it now.


What if it were true that you were the love of their life? Your belief doesn't create their reality. It is easier not to believe something than it is to not be able to verify/prove something.

I hate (HATE!) that we can't get into other people's minds. I hate that you can never know the pure, unadulterated truth. We have to simplify to get through the day. We do that internally and we do that interpreting the world.

Do you know why perfectionists never get anything done? They can't stand imperfection. They can't stand being wrong. They can't stand not uncertainty. There are a lot of job aids to help people like this become successful despite their tendencies. But since the job aids aren't perfect, you get to disregard them. <g>

Then again, what if you got into my mind when I was thinking about a possibility rather than a desire? You'd get the wrong impression. You'd have to crawl around my head for a while to piece together the "truth" as I see it. And then, would you piece it together the same way I did? Doubtful. You don't have the same experiences and history. You'd have to live a lifetime in my head And when you were busy spending time in my head you wouldn't have time to be in your own. That can happen even without being able to be inside someone else's head. That's where you are right now. You are trying to figure out what is going on in his head and heart when I think you should be listening to your own.

You don't have any control over him. Just you. So try to turn the focus toward yourself.

QUOTE=4getmenot;4922298] And the other huge piece of this is, even if I am #2 in his heart, he is still #1 in my heart, despite all of this. The man has stood by my side through so much with me (taking care of me during the last two years of cancer treatment). He has shown me how much he loves me. When I think about what he has done for me, I think I must be crazy to question his love for me and devotion to me. So I let myself believe, as much as I can, that he truly got closure and is over her. And even if he didn't, I love him so much for all he is (despite his bad actions) and has done for me that I am willing to be #2, even though it hurts to think that. [/QUOTE]

I really understand how much this bothers you. He has shown you a lot of love. He has also shown you more of who he really is. The question is, do you still like him now that you've seen more of him?



4getmenot said:


> I am hoping by letting me write her new husband that letter the door is now closed. As much as it can be in this day and age...we all know people will find a way to communicate if they really want to. I don't know that there is much else I can do on this one. I think your story probably would resonate with him, but I can't see how it would help me to know that. :scratchhead:


Here to the end is an EDIT:

I don't think my story is really comparable to his now. When you were talking about emotions about someone from the past, I could relate. It is hard to explain to someone how complex these feelings are and how loving someone else can co-exist with loving your spouse and having no intention of cheating. Recognizing a weakness is actually a strength. My emotional connection to this guy has a sexual component but it isn't just about sex. Your husband has confused me because I don't know where his desire for sex begins and ends. He can have strong feelings for the OW but still want to boff her and make sure that she knows it so he doesn't preclude that possibility in the future. The feelings may be genuine but so too the desire to have sex with her and make darn sure it can still happen. He is a man and everything I read on TAM tells me that many men look at the world through a filter that judges how likely their chances are for sex. Women (generally) don't look at men that way.

You know the song Fire and Rain? "I've seen fire and I've seen rain. I've seen sunny days that I thought would never end. I've seen lonely times when I could not find a friend. But I always thought that I'd see you again." The last line sums up my feelings about this guy. I want to see him and talk to him and hear all about his life and his kids and his grandkids (I know he has one, maybe more by now.) I want to look into his eyes and see him smile. I want a hug. I want to see him before one of us dies. I'm tearing up writing this. I never really expect that I'll have sex with him. It isn't the important part, anyway. I don't really see it as a possibility, either. And I certainly wouldn't raise it in conversation. I love him too much. If he raised it, it would probably freak me out. I don't think I really want that. I want to know but I don't want to know. What I am certain about is that I'd like to see him one more time again...

I'm sorry I can't give you what I had originally written without the edits. I wish I could.

I think you and your husband should go into MC. The thing is, can you accept anything he tells you without badgering him until he says what you want to hear? If you can't, continue to work on yourself and don't bother with MC. It won't do any good until you can listen and accept and them decide if what he says without being beaten up is something you can live with. 

I am really sorry where you find yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *for those who have reconciled - are you ever really happy again? *


*
The short answer is YES*


Our situation is different than yours in this way:

1	Both of us had to suffer the consequences of breaking trust for several years.
2	Both of us never got drunk
3	Both of us agreed on the same morals
4	Both of us incorporated more spirituality
5	Both of us realized that the fantasies of our young years were unrealistic. We no longer trust each other 100% nor anyone else because humans and are flawed and cannot be trusted 100%
6	Both of us realized that our spouse does not fulfill our whole lives
7	Both of us realized that we are responsible for our own happiness with or without each other.
8	Both of us suffered through the hard times for many years and at the same time kept improving in our lives. When we fell down we got up and got back on tract
9	Both of us have something that we are accountable to in addition to being accountable to each other.
10	Both of us realized that we both have to become more self sufficient within ourselves.


*Both of you need outside help in order to be happy again*


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## 4getmenot (Jan 24, 2013)

clipclop just wanted to say I appreciate all the time and effort you have put into listening to my story and responding. I have been too busy this week to process everything and write back - but will eventually!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Did you ever get the phone records that confirm it was just one call?

Also, I think you have serious trust issues that you are actively trying to talk yourself out of. He's very good at words, it seems, so I would observe his actions. Relax a bit yourself, if you can, in terms of ratcheting down your internal vigilance. The threesome thing is a red flag, in my opinion. Instead of talking things to death now, just watch how he behaves. Keep an eye on his behaviors. See if you think they are the actions of someone you can trust. He sounds like he's interested in other women but doesn't want you to really believe that. The way he gets you to not believe it is to give you the words you want to hear. Watch what he does instead.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Alte is right. 

Between what he has said seems what he has done, the latter is going to be closer to the truth. I am not happy with what he has done, especially knowing how you have been feeling. 

Suggesting you should be flattered cracked me up. 

I hope you are doing ok. It is good you have been busy. I hope busy doing things you enjoy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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