# Do you consider watching Pornography as cheating within a relationship?



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.

Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?

I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*For as long as one has their spouses permission that it's mutually OK for them to view it, and for as long as it does not compromise or negate their normal sexual or emotional relationship with each other, or becomes addictive, then that would be within the perimeters of acceptability!

Otherwise, no!*


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

arbitrator said:


> *As long as one has their spouses permission for them to view it, and for as long as it does not compromise or negate their normal sexual or emotional relationship with each other. *


That's a very reasonable response, I agree with that. it really depends on what two people agree on and what boundaries they willingly place on their relationship.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

No, it's not cheating, not even if you neglect your spouse because of it. However, if it causes you to neglect your spouse's sexual needs, it IS _dysfunctional_. And of course, if you spouse is routinely denying you sex, then what you do with _yourself_ is no longer any of their business or concern, despite any prior agreements regarding porn.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> And of course, if you spouse is routinely denying you sex, then what you do with _yourself_ is no longer any of their business or concern, despite any prior agreements regarding porn.


I guess if it gets to that point, you have bigger issues than it being considered cheating.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

My wife doesn't care about porn but if it was anything live where you could possibly interact with someone directly, she'd cut my balls off and show them to me. That's why I love her so much and she loves me. Respect for boundaries.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I do not consider passively watching pornography of strangers to be cheating. However, if you know the people involved, or if there is any type of interaction from messaging to camming to what have you, that changes everything. Passively looking at a video is one thing. Camming in real time or sending messages is interacting and is cheating in my opinion.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I don't think it is on the same level as cheating but it is a form of detriment to the marriage if it isn't agreed upon.

I'm against porn but I can't call it cheating.


----------



## bikermehound (Mar 24, 2017)

i like how you think

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I view porn mostly as equivalent of masturbating or reading romance novels. Something that is OK as long as it does not interfere with a couples sexual relationship. Like masturbation, I don't think it is required that it be discussed, but in a healthy relationship it should be. 

Porn does have a few additional issues: 

Some people become addicted to it, and in that way it is like alcohol. Safe for some, very bad for others. 

I think it is a problem if one person in a relationship spends a significant amount of money (relative to the couple's financial situation) on porn.

I view interactive porn as much closer to cheating, and don't t think it is OK unless previously agreed. For me (but maybe not for others) the interaction changes things.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Not cheating.

But definitely something that’s addictive and destructive—- in my opinion. That opinion is reinforced by lots of threads on here where the husband watches porn and wacks off and doesn’t want his wife anymore. 

Not cheating though. Just poor behavior in general.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

It's not cheating. It's also way more fun to watch it with your spouse.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

If there are problems in the marriage and the partner using porn is ashamed and hides it, then it is a form of violating "trust" in the marriage. Which is basically as bad as cheating. 

If there are problems in the marriage and the partner using porn is able to discuss it openly when asked, then that allows for a couple to address if and why porn is a problem. 

It is extremely important to separate the use of porn with one's occasional desire for self exploration. Some individuals believe masturbation is wrong with or without porn, and trying to add porn to that discussion may obscure that there are different beliefs and values about self exploration within the marriage. It is much healthier to argue that one person may need to know themselves in order to share themselves with a partner. If the other partner wants to advocate that it is better to allow yourself to be discovered by your spouse... you are going to be able to have a meaningful debate on the topic. 

Then as a couple once you have each made known and established your beliefs you can have a separate debate about what is OK and what is not OK for use when there is a need to enhance self exploration. The topic of porn is best discussed in this manner. If a spouse feels that perhaps porn is unethical because it is a form of prostitution or a cause for unrealistic expectations in the bedroom... then you are going to be able to have a meaning debate on the topic.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

I don’t consider it cheating. I don’t think it’s always healthy but not cheating. 

Unless we are also talking about the interactive webcams and such where there’s actual chatting...I would consider that a form of cheating.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

What is cheating? There is no legal obligation in marriage to do or not do anything except to stay married.


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

I just recently wrote a post about porn: https://dadstartingover.com/porn . 

To say it touched a nerve in A LOT of guys would be an understatement. Wow, men take their porn seriously. 

Porn in itself isn't bad or cheating... but it's something that can lead to addictive-like behavior in a lot of men. There's a growing population of women in dead bedroom relationships because their man doesn't want to put for the effort to have an intimate relationship because his "needs" are being met within minutes of staring at 2D strangers having sex. That's not a good thing.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I do see it as a form of cheating yes. Its mental cheating. I wouldn't be with a man who thought that porn was ok, because to me its definitely not ok in any form. I see it as unloving and disrespectful to me, and as being unfaithful. 

if I was with a man who I found out was looking at porn, and he refused to stop, I would not stay with him. 

I know marriages that were destroyed because of porn use, and porn is cited in 60% of all divorces now.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

No. As with anything, it can be a distraction from a root problem. But it is not cheating.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> I do see it as a form of cheating yes. Its mental cheating. I wouldn't be with a man who thought that porn was ok, because to me its definitely not ok in any form. I see it as unloving and disrespectful to me, and as being unfaithful.
> 
> if I was with a man who I found out was looking at porn, and he refused to stop, I would not stay with him.
> 
> I know marriages that were destroyed because of porn use, and porn is cited in 60% of all divorces now.


I think this is a good distinction. In your post you said YOU see it as a form of cheating. You state the kind of man you wouldn't be with.

I think sometimes in our effort to "protect mah porn" we forget that people are, in fact, entitled to their standards, and that just because they are different doesn't mean that person is crazy.

If you and your spouse enjoy porn, that is your business. Diana and others have a perfect right NOT to want it in their marriages.

And contrary to what a vocal subset of men like to think....there ARE men out there who do not use porn who are, in fact, normal red-blooded men. Yes....there are.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I think this is a good distinction. In your post you said YOU see it as a form of cheating. You state the kind of man you wouldn't be with.
> 
> I think sometimes in our effort to "protect mah porn" we forget that people are, in fact, entitled to their standards, and that just because they are different doesn't mean that person is crazy.
> 
> ...


Agreed, there are many red blooded men who don't, and I admire and respect them for going against the flow.


----------



## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

I believe getting one's sexual fulfillment from someone other than one's spouse is cheating. I don't believe masturbation is cheating, but thinking of someone other than one's spouse while masturbating is cheating. Therefore, I believe that the use of pornography is cheating. I believe that husband and wife should meet each other's sexual needs as much as possible. If there is some valid reason why that isn't possible, then masturbation is acceptable as long as it's not done while thinking about someone other than one's spouse.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

It's adultery of the heart aka cheating. Seems like modern times keeps sliding the "line"...

"It ain't cheating if you don't know the participants personally or if it is Wednesday during a full moon..."

I'd never share my wife... I expect 100% mind and body... Call me crazy and I do my best to give her the same.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I would say that it is cheating only if it reduces the porn-consumer's attention to their spouse.
If my wife wants me to bring all my sexual energy to her, and not to divert any to masturbation, then she needs to find a way to handle all my sexual energy. If she is GGG the overwhelmingly majority of the time, then I feel she is entitled to demand that I refrain from using pornography. If my wife for whatever reason is unwilling or unable to address my needs, then I feel it is unreasonable for her to ask me to refrain from using pornography to deal with the "shortfall".
My wife may well disagree. She may feel entitled to fidelity that includes mental, visual, etc. I am sure that a disagreement in this area often will prove to be very difficult to resolve.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Fazz said:


> Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.
> 
> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?
> 
> I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.


With spouse permission and couple discussion - no. Does it still have an impact on the relationship? yes. I think porn messes with sexual intimacy between the two people.


----------



## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

por·nog·ra·phy

pôrˈnäɡrəfē/

noun

printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.

synonyms:erotica,*pornographic material,*

Porn is to man as romance novels are to women.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

In my marriage, porn is considered cheating.

If we were single, we would both consider using porn as lusting, and having many partners, even if they were in one's mind..


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What is important is what a person's spouse thinks about porn. Everyone is entitled to their own standards.

So before marring someone find out their stance on porn. If their stance is one that you cannot live with, then don't marry them.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

chillymorn69 said:


> Porn is to man as romance novels are to women.


This is not really true. If it was, you'd see the readership of romance novels among women being as high as porn use among men.

About 99% of men use porn on a regular basis. About 25% of women read romance novels. Clearly romance novels are not the to women what porn is to men. Most women could care less about reading a romance novel.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

chillymorn69 said:


> por·nog·ra·phy
> 
> pôrˈnäɡrəfē/
> 
> ...


If a man wants to f to porn, then go for it. 

If a man wants to f a real woman, he needs to realize that it's not going to be like porn. 

A romance novel is just as much fantasy as porn is fantasy. 

Would it be a novel idea that two people create their own genre of sex in real life? What would that be like?


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This is not really true. If it was, you'd see the readership of romance novels among women being as high as porn use among men.
> 
> About 99% of men use porn on a regular basis. About 25% of women read romance novels. Clearly romance novels are not the to women what porn is to men. Most women could care less about reading a romance novel.


I'd have to agree about this. I'm into my guy and I really never see any stats about women and how they tend to get centered on one man as opposed to cruising for variety like men do women.

I just shut off when I see other men - doesn't faze me in the least. Maybe I'm an odd duck but gyrating male strippers are just funny to me, not sexy. I just see them as entertainers making money by dancing in some way that they think women would find sexy.

Again, maybe I'm an odd duck but what a guy brings in terms of personality is going to trump a whole lot of other stuff. If he's average looking but takes care of himself and is funny, polite and confident, that goes a long way. The guys in porn - like, WTF? 

Porn is sooooo geared towards male stimulation. Women are very left out of most of porn - a wide open market that those porn producers are idiotically ignoring. They have no clue what turns a woman on. Women are very different animals sexually. Very complex and with an untapped depth to them that, if a guy gets to unleash his woman, he would never look at porn again. His real life would far eclipse that fake stuff.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> What is important is what a person's spouse thinks about porn. Everyone is entitled to their own standards.
> 
> So before marring someone find out their stance on porn. If their stance is one that you cannot live with, then don't marry them.


That's a great first step. The follow through is just is important: that both continue to meet those standards after marriage, or if their life changes necessitate, they renegotiate those standards. If the standard is regular, enthusiastic sex and one partner unilaterally stops that, other standards are bound to change/disappear as well.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> I'd have to agree about this. I'm into my guy and I really never see any stats about women and how they tend to get centered on one man as opposed to cruising for variety like men do women.
> 
> I just shut off when I see other men - doesn't faze me in the least. Maybe I'm an odd duck but gyrating male strippers are just funny to me, not sexy. I just see them as entertainers making money by dancing in some way that they think women would find sexy.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm naive, or merely projecting my personal views, but I really think that's exactly what most men want. Porn is a lousy substitute. But how many women truly unleash?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Maybe I'm naive, or merely projecting my personal views, but I really think that's exactly what most men want. Porn is a lousy substitute. But how many women truly unleash?


Well, first we'd need to know that 'truly unleash' means. What sort of things fit into "truly unleash'?


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Maybe I'm naive, or merely projecting my personal views, but I really think that's exactly what most men want. Porn is a lousy substitute. But how many women truly unleash?


Men who drop porn and pore themselves into their partners would find themselves married to a totally different woman.

IMHO, and I realize this is just me - I consider the use of pornography weak and lazy. A man who is participating fully in real life is a stud.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Well, first we'd need to know that 'truly unleash' means. What sort of things fit into "truly unleash'?


An unleashed woman is fully engaged in every way and is full of surprises.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I think this is a good distinction. In your post you said YOU see it as a form of cheating. You state the kind of man you wouldn't be with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I can’t remember the last time I watched porn. But that’s ‘cos there was regular sex. When wife takes away her vajayjay, the keys do tend to become a little more sticky...

She doesn’t really get offended if she notices I watched porn; maybe a bit, or asks questions in a complainy way (“did you have to shake the bed so hard?” Etc) but it’s the same reaction if she ‘catches’ me masturbating.
It’s cute when she feels my orgasms are her responsibility: I would rather have that than if she completely didn’t care...

I think it can become a problem if it became an addiction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

happiness27 said:


> An unleashed woman is fully engaged in every way and is full of surprises.


Still now clear enough. I now for a fact that being enthusiastic, "fully engaged in every way and full of surprises" does not keep a lot of men content in a relationship.

Does it include sex every day? Sex every time he wants it?

How about BJ's? How often?

How about things like bondage? is that part of what would be required for a man to feel that his wife?

How about 3somes?

How about S&M?

I want to hear what Rocky Mountain Yeti and other men answer. And I mean specifics.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The difference is the majority of porn use is done alone. Infidelity always takes a partner. So no it's not infidelity but it could be cheating or a least cause damage to the marriage.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I can’t remember the last time I watched porn. But that’s ‘cos there was regular sex. When wife takes away her vajayjay, the keys do tend to become a little more sticky...
> 
> She doesn’t really get offended if she notices I watched porn; maybe a bit, or asks questions in a complainy way (“did you have to shake the bed so hard?” Etc) but it’s the same reaction if she ‘catches’ me masturbating.
> It’s cute when she feels my orgasms are her responsibility: I would rather have that than if she completely didn’t care...
> ...


Porn use effects how a woman views her husband. Masturbation is a separate thing - one that I think women understand. But, yeah, it bothers a wife when their guy is jacking off to porn. Men say "It's just sex, I just wanted an orgasm" - but a woman hears that and can't help but think "So, what's sex with me? Just sex?" And guys try to explain that "No, with you it's MAKING LOVE" but I know I have a hard time juxtaposing that. While yes, sex with a live person is different, using porn belittles the sex act...and a lot of women just try to get on board with porn use so they can be seen as being cool and not offending to their husband. 

What I say is that porn use is like a little insult - it creates these little nicks that damage a relationship. Porn creates these expectations and comparisons that make a woman question her viability as a sex partner. This, to say nothing for supporting the porn industry which makes objects out of women. It's not that far of a stretch for a woman to get into the thinking of: If my man thinks it's okay for women to be used like that for self-gratification, well, I'm a woman, too, and being used for selfish ends is not a feel-good place about my partner. 

It's like this: a guy who is content with gobbling a Big Mac is going to be clueless when it comes to slowly eating and enjoying every aspect of sucking on all the flavors and textures of a strawberry (or substitute whatever delicious texture, flavor sensation might appeal). Women like a man who has taste and class when it comes to sex. Porn is pretty lowbrow and classless.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Well, first we'd need to know that 'truly unleash' means. What sort of things fit into "truly unleash'?


Agreed.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Men who drop porn and pore themselves into their partners would find themselves married to a totally different woman.
> 
> IMHO, and I realize this is just me - I consider the use of pornography weak and lazy. A man who is participating fully in real life is a stud.


And what of the man who starts exactly that way, poring themselves entirely into their partners and their partners either never responded in the first place, or stopped responding somewhere along the way? 

By your definition, there's some serious studs on these boards... who aren't getting any.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> They have no clue what turns a woman on. Women are very different animals sexually. Very complex and with an untapped depth to them that, if a guy gets to unleash his woman, he would never look at porn again. His real life would far eclipse that fake stuff.



That sounds great but perhaps at this juncture, some practical pointers would be extremely useful 🧐



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

My ex and I had an agreement to only MB and/or look at porn if we did it together. Or if one wanted to MB they had offer the other the chance to assist first. There were very few times either of us even had to ask. The desire to assist was always there (even if the desire to have full on sex wasn’t). An MB assist meant assisting with our bodies and words. Hardly ever included porn.

Other times we chose to watch porn together as a prelude to sex. It would always be chosen jointly and both of us were willing to scrap it quickly if it didn’t turn out to be sexy for either of us. We had fun with it, nothing ever became an issue for either of us. 

But if either of us were watching it without the other, it would be considered cheating on our rule. And we both really just enjoyed following the rule so, we never broke it.

Neither of us have a moral problem with porn. We simply wanted to keep all of our sexual energy for each other. Randomly watching porn while alone, we felt, would be like leaking out sexual energy on crappy junk food when we should be saving our appetites for each other.

And in case anyone wonders, he is the one who first wanted me to agree to this rule. He didn’t like me watching porn by myself and leaking out my energy that way. Not that I was watching lots of it or anything but when we shared our thoughts on it we were both honest, and we found some areas we both wanted to clear up a bit. Thus, the rules were made.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And what of the man who starts exactly that way, poring themselves entirely into their partners and their partners either never responded in the first place, or stopped responding somewhere along the way?
> 
> By your definition, there's some serious studs on these boards... who aren't getting any.


I'd say that the guys should do the same thing that women in that situation should do... divorce.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Men who drop porn and pore themselves into their partners would find themselves married to a totally different woman.
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, and I realize this is just me - I consider the use of pornography weak and lazy. A man who is participating fully in real life is a stud.




Yes true. But you will also find many women who will find husbands that ‘pour themselves fully’ into their partner as ‘crowding’ and needy.

We have to be able to distinguish between ideals and real life...

Nothing gives me more pleasure than to try everything to ‘unleash’ my woman but unless she lets me unleash her, it won’t happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And what of the man who starts exactly that way, poring themselves entirely into their partners and their partners either never responded in the first place, or stopped responding somewhere along the way?
> 
> By your definition, there's some serious studs on these boards... who aren't getting any.


I'd have to hear from their partners and not just from the men to answer that question. People are always going to cast themselves in the best light when discussing dissatisfaction with their partners...whereas if we heard from their partners, we would get a complete picture. 

Like I said, there may be incompatible couples but there are a lot of other possibilities, too. Women who are getting bad sex aren't going to be very enthusiastic about having sex and women who have any number of other issues with their partners need to get engaged with their partners and the men need to listen and not defend. I think this is a part of Hold on to Your N.U.T.S.

Couples need to friggin' TALK to each other and not just a couple of times. They need to talk, rest, talk, rest, but keep at fruitful conversations until they get to the heart of their matters with themselves as individuals and as a couple. It's an ongoing process and not a "once and for all" conversation.

You're not going to hear from men that they aren't making an effort in the bedroom. The place where a couple struggling with sex is having problems is giving up before they getting anywhere with the exchanges. If a woman says "I like it when you do this" and the guy doesn't do that or makes a haphazard attempt, she's going to think he's not into her enough to make an effort. Porn absolutely doesn't help with anything. A guy who stays focuses on his partner and sees porn for the lazy-ass b.s. that it is - is going to find himself falling back in love with his partner and making a greater effort because of those renewed feelings. 

It is inescapably scientifically supported that humans form attachments with what they are having sex with/to. You can't avoid it because it's built into the human physical brain system. 

Detach from porn and get back into your partner and drop the idea of perfection. Embrace humanness with all it's flaws and foibles - but also it's joys and ecstasies.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Well, first we'd need to know that 'truly unleash' means. What sort of things fit into "truly unleash'?
> ...


I think we have to be careful with statements like this one. We can’t ever generalize what “women” or “men” will do.

There are plenty of women who are never going to be “unleashed” or fully engaged or full of surprises. Whether their man is focused on truly learning their needs and desires or not.

While I agree with your sentiment, that plenty of women will shut down their sexual feelings for a man who is into lazy and demeaning fapping to porn and also don’t learn how to light a real woman’s (his woman’s) fire. And the same women may open up and become unleashed as you say, if her man was a better lover (which to me means he is focused on her and their sex life together rather than the crap food that is porn).

But we have plenty of men at TAM who would love nothing more than to be the delivery system of all their wife’s sexual pleasure and they would happily never watch porn again in order to do that, but the wife is not ever going to become a sexual person regardless.

Some people just aren’t very sexual, regardless of what their partner does or doesn’t do.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Fazz said:


> Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.
> 
> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?
> 
> I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.


Cheating? No. We view it more along the lines of research and creativity. I LOVE seeing what porn turns my wife on. Or maybe i just love seeing her turned on? 

Hmmm...


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Still now clear enough. I now for a fact that being enthusiastic, "fully engaged in every way and full of surprises" does not keep a lot of men content in a relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You have been browsing categories on pornhub, I can tell...

This is a very valid question and it will mean different things to different men. 

I believe that some men actually do become too lazy, sexually. By that I mean they put all responsibility for ‘sexual entertainment’ onto their partner. And there’s really nothing more off putting for a woman than a passive lover (correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t insult me for my mansplanations please ) who expects the woman to lift up HIS drive, because he can’t be bothered to be the (true) initiator. And he actually is deluding himself a lot of the times that it is the partner who has a low libido. In many cases, it is really not the case and the woman just doesn’t feel like having sex with a lazy lover.

I personally don’t need a lot at all to do some ‘unleashing’. All I need is a partner who is willing to go along for the ride and is open minded and curious herself (within limits of course). Maybe this is still a tall order (and on some nights, the magic just doesn’t really happen and it’s nobody’s fault).

I’m perfectly fine when my wife says “I don’t wanna do this particular thing tonight”. But if she is actively and consistently rejecting and avoiding intimacy and deflecting my advances, then there’s nothing much i can do.

For me it’s really not about the performance acts; it’s the chemistry; it is difficult to put into words but I would say willingness, enthusiasm, curiosity and open mindedness are the main prerequisites for great sex.
But there’s much more also. Like what else is going on in the relationship or in each other’s lives at the moment. We talk about sex in isolation but it is never in isolation. It is the ‘result’ and part of the whole system. If an aspect in a marriage is ailing, sex will be one of the first things to suffer.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> It is inescapably scientifically supported that humans form attachments with what they are having sex with/to. You can't avoid it because it's built into the human physical brain system.


I suspect sex often leads to attachments, but let's stay grounded here. Some people have sex w/o forming attachments, and having sex is no guarantee of lasting attachment.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> Yes true. But you will also find many women who will find husbands that ‘pour themselves fully’ into their partner as ‘crowding’ and needy.
> 
> We have to be able to distinguish between ideals and real life...
> 
> ...


Poring oneself into a partner doesn't mean following them around all the time like a dog.

It's a change in attitude. It's noticing the details of what is great about the other person instead of running pictures in his mind of the barely legal chick in the school girl outfit getting double banged in some abandoned warehouse. 

And, hopefully, it means dropping a negative attitude towards the partner. I swear, one of the things I wish therapists would help people with the most is getting them to realize that the stories they make up in their heads about their partners is mostly b.s. I don't know what my partner is actually thinking unless I ask him - nor he, me. And if they won't tell you, then get into therapy and resolve THAT kind of b.s. behavior. People need to TALK to each other for real.

I can be staring off in space thinking about how I'm going to find some archival images stored on some old hard drive and my husband can get worried that I'm unhappy about something. DANG. I'm a woman and I usually have 27 windows open in my brain at any given time. All ya gotta do is casually say over coffee some morning: "Your nipples are sticking through your shirt and distracting me..." to get my attention. Just because I don't drop my pants on the spot doesn't mean I'm not going to f your brains out later. That subtle flirty stuff can be massively fun. 

Speaking of fun...remember that? 

For me, I remind myself...ya know, my partner and I could be having our last year, last three months, last 3 days together. How do I want to spend that time? Just to get some perspective.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> What is cheating? There is no legal obligation in marriage to do or not do anything except to stay married.


Ok I know we already went round about this before but...no, there is no legal obligation to stay married.

If you mean that the divorce process could financially or emotionally devastate someone and therefore they don’t feel free to divorce because it would be a worse fate then staying married, then sure. That happens to a lot of people, mainly based on how many assets they have tied up and how many kids and what state they live in.

But there is no legal obligation to stay married. I don’t get why you keep saying it that way?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Porn use effects how a woman views her husband. Masturbation is a separate thing - one that I think women understand. But, yeah, it bothers a wife when their guy is jacking off to porn.



I tried to explain a few times (without success I think) the reasons why in my opinion (and I’m not speaking on behalf of women, this is just my completely subjective perception), find it so offensive when their partner views porn. 

Now I’m not talking about men who would choose porn over their partner. I’m also not talking about men who become addicted to porn.

Just the majority of guys who use porn as masturbatory aid. Viewing porn means something very different for men than it means for women. If I were to watch it, i would be doing it because I have no energy to imagine lady parts, situations and acts myself and I have about 5-10 minutes before I need to go to sleep). At no point do I imagine ****ing any of the actresses or thinking: ‘how come my wife is not as hot as this?’
I think the women who feel intimidated by it find this concept rather unintuitive (otherwise they wouldn’t be intimidated!).

I could even prove it: I come much quicker to videos of us than most of webporn out there. It’s quicker because those acts are still much more vivid in my memory and it brings back all the sensory responses that happened between us during those moments; whether it’s taste, smell or feel or whatever. It’s more stimulating.

But of course there will always be men who will watch porn as a form of escapism (sometimes, escapism from their wives). But I don’t think this is the majority.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> You're not going to hear from men that they aren't making an effort in the bedroom.



Yes, that is completely true and I’m acutely aware of this possibility. But it doesn’t cover all possibilities unfortunately. But you are completely right that the person who complains the loudest, is NOT always justified to complain.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Porn absolutely doesn't help with anything.



It helped me let my wife get through 3 pregnancies (and leave her alone afterwards) when sex was probably one of the last things on her mind. 
It is very possible that had it not been for porn, my **** would have decided to do something very very stupid and then regret it for the rest of my life, ruining 5 people’s lives (and perhaps more). 
Porn has its utility. Just use it ‘responsibly’.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Detach from porn and get back into your partner and drop the idea of perfection. Embrace humanness with all it's flaws and foibles - but also it's joys and ecstasies.



Pass over that joint 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Poring oneself into a partner doesn't mean following them around all the time like a dog.
> 
> It's a change in attitude. It's noticing the details of what is great about the other person instead of....



In other words, it’s a dream!! 

It is REALLY hard (and I tried) to actually read your partner’s mind and do the right thing, at the right moment! And be ‘that guy’ (when ‘that guy’ sometimes means to just leave her the **** alone and give her some space).

Bear in mind, what you desire now (this minute) can and will change tomorrow. No partner is as intuitive to be able to adjust. I know I certainly can’t.

There are some more general traits that seem to inspire attraction more than others but they only work some of the time, at the ‘right’ time. But they do work!

I don’t quite buy the idea that many women who are not that much into sex cannot be ‘helped’; their drive can still nudge along a spectrum, either up or down, sometimes dramatically so. It is not static. But yes, there are women who are mostly uninterested in sex, as there are men too. There can be many reasons for this.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> For me, I remind myself...ya know, my partner and I could be having our last year, last three months, last 3 days together. How do I want to spend that time? Just to get some perspective.



Yes, I’m completely with you on this. Especially on the perspective thing. That doesn’t just apply to sex though...It applies to many things like work (do you want to be working till you drop dead?) and how you spend your time in general and who with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> I'd have to hear from their partners and not just from the men to answer that question. People are always going to cast themselves in the best light when discussing dissatisfaction with their partners...whereas if we heard from their partners, we would get a complete picture.
> 
> Of course. Unfortunately, there's no way to convince you that some of these guys are not just tooting their own horn, but have been able to set aside ego and look at things impartially. And yes, some of it is easily quantifiable. i.e. We go out on dates X times per week. I cook dinner X times per week. etc. I know if you were to ask my wife, she'd tell you I have carried almost all the physical and emotional weight throughout our marriage. She'll tell you I worked hard while she stayed home, I did most of the cooking (and not out of a box, I'm talking gourmet stuff), a good share of the cleaning, lots of time with the kids, and still made quality time with her, including relaxing time, fun time, and romantic time (and I mean romantic time; not focused on sex or having sex as a goal). She'll tell you I provided a great life physically, emotionally and romantically. She'll also tell you that didn't affect her desire or response one freaking iota. She'll tell you straight up there is no connection whatsoever between all that, or even between all the things you've pointed out as the path to glory, and her sexual response.
> 
> ...


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Am i the only one who doesn't ever want their spouse to stop watching porn?

What better way to know what your spouse wants than to watch, and see, the things that turn them on?


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok I know we already went round about this before but...no, there is no legal obligation to stay married.
> 
> If you mean that the divorce process could financially or emotionally devastate someone and therefore they don’t feel free to divorce because it would be a worse fate then staying married, then sure. That happens to a lot of people, mainly based on how many assets they have tied up and how many kids and what state they live in.
> 
> But there is no legal obligation to stay married. I don’t get why you keep saying it that way?


In fact I've never before said it that way. It just occurred to me today, that the only legal requirement of marriage was to stay married. You need special legal permission to break that contract. I'm not saying it isn't easy to get that permission, but legally you do, have to get it.

The relevant part of this is that cheating is only breaking an assumed and sometimes understood agreement between the two members of the relationship. In other words it only really matters whether or not your partner thinks porn is cheating.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

As'laDain said:


> Am i the only one who doesn't ever want their spouse to stop watching porn?
> 
> What better way to know what your spouse wants than to watch, and see, the things that turn them on?


What I watch in porn would say very little about me. It is a different realm than my actual sex life. 

There is one really kinky, awesome thing I love in partnered sex above all other kinky things. That is not something I would ever seek out porn about (never have).

Likewise I’ve watched porn of things out of sheer curiosity. And even though knowing what my curiosities about porn are may make a man know a tiny thing about a very limited part of me that has nothing to do with my partnered sex life, it really isn’t that relevant. 

But I get why it might help some know their partner.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Fazz said:


> Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.
> 
> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?
> 
> I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.


It's only cheating in as much as a woman who uses her memories and emotions from literature and past sexual experiences to masturbate is cheating. Men are visual. 

(It is)Detrimental when it is used in place of sexual intercourse with the relationship partner. I suspect it is more an issue when a partner feels they don't have enough influence in their relationship, than they really wanted sex. If the partner wanted sex, they would make that very well known to their partner. They don't even have to say much. If it takes talk, someone isn't doing something correctly. Maybe it is not an issue with porn? There are many things to consider.

Men I've talked with don't masturbate when they can get needs met with their partner, unless they have some addiction, or they are not interested in sex with their partner for some reason.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

If a spouse refuses to meet their partners needs in the bedroom then it's fair game.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If a spouse refuses to meet their partners needs in the bedroom then it's fair game.


Sure, however a blanket rule like that could be dangerous. If your partner isn't satisfying your needs and you turn to pornography rather than work with your spouse to rectify the situation, the situation could spiral further out of control, get worse and result in further bedroom problems.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Fazz said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > If a spouse refuses to meet their partners needs in the bedroom then it's fair game.
> ...


By not meeting their needs, I mean they are rejecting them for sex. Not sure how to rectify that situation aside from taking matters in your own 'hand'.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CynthiaDe said:


> I believe getting one's sexual fulfillment from someone other than one's spouse is cheating. I don't believe masturbation is cheating, but thinking of someone other than one's spouse while masturbating is cheating. Therefore, I believe that the use of pornography is cheating. I believe that husband and wife should meet each other's sexual needs as much as possible. If there is some valid reason why that isn't possible, then masturbation is acceptable *as long as it's not done while thinking about someone other than one's spouse.*


In psychology there are various modes of lovemaking. Some folks are sensation/meditation-based lovers (eyes closed). Some folks are partner-based lovers (candle light). And others are role-playing-based lovers (eyes wide open). 

The role playing folks discover themselves primarily by trying to experience what it is like to be someone else. It is not to say that they are an empty person and can not enjoy just being themselves, but more so that they are comfortable enough with who they are to also be open minded that there are multiple ways and perspectives that one can experience something. This can all happen very well within the context of monogamy. BUT... you have to have both partners that are open to the idea of being imagined and playing the role of someone else other than themselves. 

My point being is that some folks may primarily get excited by thinking about their spouse trying to pretend to be someone other then their spouse. But one has to really transform themselves into someone else in order for this mode of lovemaking to thrive.

Something to think about as many folks are into role-play. Think of all the cosplay people that dress up as comic book characters and really enjoy it in a social context at large conventions. This same context translates into the bedroom. 

Some people would feel silly. Some people would feel offended by a partner asking them to be someone else. Everyone is different. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

I'm totally against watching porn but I don't think its necessarily cheating. My husband travels a lot for his job and if the world wasn't such an evil world we would make our own porn for his viewing pleasure while away. For now I am using the don't ask don't tell rule. He has a boudoir photo album of me which he always takes with him and I would like to think that's enough. But I just prefer to keep my head buried on the sand regarding porn.

FTR he has insinuated he does not watch it. I may or may not believe him but choose not to dig deeper since it's certainly not a deal breaker.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> Men who drop porn and pore themselves into their partners would find themselves married to a totally different woman.
> 
> IMHO, and I realize this is just me - I consider the use of pornography weak and lazy. A man who is participating fully in real life is a stud.



I agree in concept about the "poring" however there are more than a few examples intr where men are poring but nothing happens. Some are here in TAM...


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Fazz said:


> Sure, however a blanket rule like that could be dangerous. If your partner isn't satisfying your needs and you turn to pornography rather than work with your spouse to rectify the situation, the situation could spiral further out of control, get worse and result in further bedroom problems.


Could you please explain what the Worse Further bedroom problems you blithely refer to here would be?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Fazz said:


> Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.
> 
> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?
> 
> I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.


How about the detrimental impact that can inflict the psyche of a spouse if their wife/husband cannot (that's cannot, not will not) have sex?

Under those circumstances pornography can take the edge of.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fazz said:


> .... If your partner isn't satisfying your needs and you turn to pornography rather than work with your spouse to rectify the situation, the situation could spiral further out of control, get worse and result in further bedroom problems.


This is indeed an interesting comment. In the 2014 movie The Gambler John Goodman plays a loan shark character named Frank. Before loaning money to the main character he claimed that it was enough to qualify for "F - You" money. In other words if you have this much money you will be able to tell everyone in the world "F - You" and not put up with their crap because you have enough money to meet all the needs you will ever have:


@Fazz is correct in that porn can almost be used as an alternate form of sexual currency in a relationship. When there are problems instead of working to resolve them you have enough to meet your own needs so that you can give your spouse the passive aggressive "F - you" when intimacy is declined by reciprocating with an I-don't-care attitude and just walking away. 

BUT... there are also instances when intimacy is declined when someone just needs some personal space to unwind. This is particularly true when one person has a job in which they deal with the public face to face all day long or being at home helping take care of children. At the end of the day, some folks just need a quiet moment alone to unwind and there is nothing wrong with that. If the other partner is in need for intimacy during this time, there is really nothing that one can do to resolve the problem of needed personal space other than to give a partner some needed personal space. So if the person in need for intimacy turns to porn and self gratification during this time, yes that is problematic and does not solve anything... but sometimes life sucks, situations are messy, and you do your best to be as patient as you can for your spouse.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CynthiaDe said:


> I believe getting one's sexual fulfillment from someone other than one's spouse is cheating. I don't believe masturbation is cheating, but thinking of someone other than one's spouse while masturbating is cheating. Therefore, I believe that the use of pornography is cheating. I believe that husband and wife should meet each other's sexual needs as much as possible. If there is some valid reason why that isn't possible, then masturbation is acceptable as long as it's not done while thinking about someone other than one's spouse.


Thinking of your own wife while masturbating? Whats the point?


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happiness27 said:


> You're not going to hear from men that they aren't making an effort in the bedroom.


I am making zero effort in the bedroom.

Back when we were having sex, I was a lousy lazy lover.

But then again, lots of people have accused me of not being a man despite my anatomy. :surprise: :grin2:


----------



## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Fazz said:
> 
> 
> > Sure, however a blanket rule like that could be dangerous. If your partner isn't satisfying your needs and you turn to pornography rather than work with your spouse to rectify the situation, the situation could spiral further out of control, get worse and result in further bedroom problems.
> ...


I’m not the OP but do have some experience with porn making bedroom problems worse.

A few years ago my husband and I weren’t having sex as much as he’d like. We were still doing it 1-2 times a week but it was far less than we had been and he was getting sick of being turned down. Our 2 young kids started sleeping with me most nights and he’d be out on the couch watching porn every night. We were still very loving with each other but sex kind of stopped because it was so much easier for him to just watch porn and jerk off than try to talk to me about why I didn’t want sex (which I understand). 

Then finally I actually wanted sex one night and he couldn’t orgasm. The next night we tried again and he still couldn’t (he says it was because he was overthinking it). My feelings were extremely hurt. My self esteem was crushed. I felt like I never wanted to have sex with him again. 
Luckily, he quit watching porn and the next night he spent lots of time making me feel sexy and we were able to have satisfying sex. Then he felt like he had to prove to me that he wanted sex with me so we had sex every night for a week...and ended up pregnant with our 3rd baby (who’s 2 and still sleeping in our room). 

So porn was sort of responsible for our 3rd kid who sleeps in our bedroom and is therefore a “bedroom problem”. Lol.


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

Fazz said:


> Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.
> 
> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?
> 
> I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.



My humble opinions on this topic...

What porn is: 
- A form of entertainment / masturbatory aid. That's all.

What porn is not:
- Cheating (With no physical touching of another person, emotion sharing, or money changing hands, no cheating is taking place. PS: No one pays for porn. If you pay for porn, you're stupid, not a cheater...) 
- Sinful (Religious-based judgments are not objective and are inherently intrusive. Everyone has a different moral line in the sand. Your line should have no bearing on the next person, even if it is your spouse)
- Inherently "Good" or Inherently "Bad" (I do not believe things (porn is a thing) are inherently good or bad. It's how it is used by individual people that determine the result. If you use porn as a form of sexual enhancement or if your spouse leaves you hanging because they have a much lower drive than you, then porn use is a good thing. However, if someone uses porn to the point that their spouse's sexual needs are ignored, then porn use is not good.)


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thinking of your own wife while masturbating? Whats the point?


In reality there is zero chance a person always thinks solely about their SO every time/the whole time. Male or female.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

LeananSidhe said:


> I’m not the OP but do have some experience with porn making bedroom problems worse.
> 
> A few years ago my husband and I weren’t having sex as much as he’d like. We were still doing it 1-2 times a week but it was far less than we had been and he was getting sick of being turned down. Our 2 young kids started sleeping with me most nights and he’d be out on the couch watching porn every night. We were still very loving with each other but* sex kind of stopped* because it was so much easier for him to just watch porn and jerk off than try to talk to me about why I didn’t want sex (which I understand).
> 
> ...


Interesting story. I think the bolded parts could make a whole new thread.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Do you consider watching Pornography as cheating within a relationship?

No I do not. I don't give porn the good or bad label...it just is what it is.

Here is an interesting tidbit from my own experience: Now that my kids are older and my wife and I spend much more time together, including much more sex, I barely watch it. For me the
frequency of watching was directly related to how close I was feeling/not feeling for my wife. Perhaps those who have weaker relationships are more threatened by it or have a spouse who 
watches more of it than "regular". I also find that my taste in porn is much different now. I'll be much more interested in a normal looking real life couple than a porno fake reality set up.

So whats my point.....I don't know...Perhaps I mean weaker relationships will more likely view it as cheating as they feel it is the cause (though I doubt it).

I'm excluding the religious zealots as everyone knows their view.

NOTE: No I've never had any porn "issues"


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> In reality there is zero chance a person always thinks solely about their SO every time/the whole time. Male or female.


I totally agree, but I will say my mind tends to be on my wife more than any other. For whatever reason it is just the way my brain works. There are likely many that are 
quite the opposite (maybe even my wife) ....and that is OK as well.

Anything can be an addiction, porn or otherwise.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Exactly. It's just a substitute for most. When I was in a dead bedroom marriage, I used it A Lot. In fact, many arm chair psychologists here would probably exclaim that I was addicted or something. Strangely enough my 'addiction' disappeared once I divorced and started getting sex on the regular. Now I rarely use it. Go figure.


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Still now clear enough. I now for a fact that being enthusiastic, "fully engaged in every way and full of surprises" does not keep a lot of men content in a relationship.
> 
> Does it include sex every day? Sex every time he wants it?
> 
> ...



What you listed above are kinks, which are fun to explore, but in themselves, aren't engaging. To me, "fully engaged in every way" means treating sex and your partners needs with the higher priority that they deserve to be treated.
- First, both spouses should be initiating foreplay/sex in relatively equal levels. If only one person initiates sex all the time, that person will start to feel less desired, and even avoided after awhile. This, to me, is the most important aspect because why would anyone suspect someone would want to "finish" if they don't ever try to "start"...
- Second, being open minded to your husband's individual kinks and be ready to share some of your own. No one is saying that you have to be a doormat to any kink your husband has, but show that there is non-judgmental side that will at least consider some requests. For example, don't open your marriage if you don't want to, but if a hubby in interested in 3-ways, then watch a three-way porn video with him and jokingly remind him what he should have tried in his college years. It's turning him down, but still participating...
- Third, timing and frequency will always be important. If good sex happens in the morning, something like porn won't even cross my mind that day. However, if I'm told to wait until the end of the day (or end of the week, or end of the month...), there's a good chance I'm clicking on pornhub before too long...


----------



## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

Nope, in normal realms, porn does NOT intrude on the marriage...It is not cheating. Neither is the wife when watching 50 shades or reading some of those "romance" novels that have very graphic sex in them....

It doesn't intrude in our marriage by diverting time, resources and emotional bonding to each other. A guy calling the house in the middle of the night...CHEATING! lol

Seriously though, when my wife and I were on the outs, so to speak. I did resort to left handed time. And as such, porn is a stimulant for such matters. When we were actively engaged in love making and bonding...No porn. Didn't really even think about it. Now when I fantasized, it usually involved my wife. Seriously. Maybe it's a more hidden "hysterical bonding" type thing, considering the drama of last year, and the frequency of sex to be had....Who knows...


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

LeananSidhe said:


> I’m not the OP but do have some experience with porn making bedroom problems worse.
> 
> A few years ago my husband and I weren’t having sex as much as he’d like. We were still doing it 1-2 times a week but it was far less than we had been and he was getting sick of being turned down. Our 2 young kids started sleeping with me most nights and he’d be out on the couch watching porn every night. We were still very loving with each other but sex kind of stopped because it was so much easier for him to just watch porn and jerk off than try to talk to me about why I didn’t want sex (which I understand).
> 
> ...






Question. If your feelings were hurt after only two days of not getting sex, have you considered how your husband felt after not getting sex for so long he had to change his entire routine? Did it occur to you that he was only watching porn because he had no other choice or avenue of sexual release? How did being exiled to the couch every night impact his self esteem? I just thought it a little odd that he felt that he had to prove himself to you after turning you down for two days but it's somehow ok for him to go sexless for who knows how long on the couch...

After seeing what a problem was with letting the first two sleep in the same room, I never would have allowed the third child to do the same. My wife let our first come into the bed once, and I put my foot down afterwards and told her never again. The marital bed is not meant for kids. It just causes too may issues.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thinking of your own wife while masturbating? Whats the point?


I once did a poll (but it got deleted) asking how many people fantasize about their own spouse. It was gender specific and the results were:

The majority of men on TAM actually do fantasize about their own wife.

The majority of women on TAM claimed they needed a fantasy a little more exotic than real life. 

So if the majority of men watch porn while women read romance novels, one might conclude that watching porn numbs the male imagination while reading romance likely enhances and strengthens the female imagination. 

Think about it! You watch TV or a movie and the brain can pretty much completely relax. You read a book and the brain must go into an imaginative state of overdrive in an attempt to envision the storyline. This is why the best books have no pictures, because the respective imagery only serves to distract and disrupt one's imagination. A well designed book cover is also vague on purpose to try and enhance this aspect of reading. 

Perhaps to most women, the idea of watching porn just comes across as a indecent/gross visual diagram of lovemaking. Rather bland and void of any interesting context that might stimulate the imagination. Meanwhile men have no imagination and enjoy to solely focus on the visuals of a sexually receptive partner and let instincts and hormones just do their thing.

Something to think about...

Now the funny thing about sexual problems with women is that many claim they can not turn off their minds. Too often women are distracted with the context of whatever just happened during the day or preparing for the context of what is going to have to happen later in the day. It prevents them from becoming sexually aroused and receptive. With such a powerful and imaginative mind, one may need a rather powerful fantasy to get that train of thought shifted over to a different track and headed towards Poonville! Once it changes track, guys need to hang on and keep going with it because it can be hard to stop a powerful train! 

Perhaps this is why subconsciously that men at all ages love to play with model trains and engineer creative ways to solve navigation problems with various rail cars and train tracks. It is essentially like learning how to creatively and peacefully live alongside a women's powerful train of thought. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Edo Edo said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > I’m not the OP but do have some experience with porn making bedroom problems worse.
> ...


My feelings weren’t hurt by not getting sex for 2 days, they were hurt because he couldn’t orgasm by having regular PIV sex after spending a week jerking it to porn every night. 

After this happened, he explained his feelings about being rejected to me. I had not realized how he felt because he had given no indication of being upset or hurt. Once he explained I understood how he felt more. 

Of course it occurred to me that he was watching porn because I was rejecting him... which is why I said in my post that I understood.

I can’t control how he felt. He felt the need to show me that he still desires me over porn and still wanted to have sex with me. I appreciated his efforts...except for the unintentional pregnancy part but I’m ok with that now too. 

Good for you. My husband has no problem with our youngest sleeping in our room. I’d like him to move out soon but for now it’s a necessity (slow going renovations). Our sex life is not suffering.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Still now clear enough. I now for a fact that being enthusiastic, "fully engaged in every way and full of surprises" does not keep a lot of men content in a relationship.
> 
> Does it include sex every day? Sex every time he wants it?
> 
> ...


 @EleGirl,
Sorry, I must have skipped over this post earlier. 
Having seen it now, I'll try to address this as best I can, assuming I adequately understand the original statement as well as your purpose in asking the follow on question. I'll answer your specifics and then try to share a unifying theme at the end.

I would not say it requires sex every day, or every time I want it. I would add that it would be something more than just whenever the egg is passing. There's gotta' be a happy medium in there somewhere. To be perfectly honest, at this point I have no solid idea of what would be a satisfactory frequency for me. I know that, at 53, I'm not going to have the drive I had at 23. It's been so long that sex was more than 1x/week though, I have no idea what I'm capable of or what I want. It would be fun to be able to see where the sweet spot is. 

BJs would be very nice, I think. I don't really have enough experience with them to know just how much I'd enjoy them, especially if they became a regular menu item. Would they lose their luster after a while? I don't know. It's something I definitely desire and again, how nice it would be to explore that together. Let me also add at this point that I have the same feelings about cunnilingus. This is also something we have limited experience with, but on a couple occasions, she really seemed to enjoy it, and actually said so (without being queried on the topic). So why not do that more as well? 

No interest whatsoever in threesomes. I'm pretty old school on that one. Even aside from any moral aversions I may have, it doesn't fit my aesthetic. FFMs are out because I want to focus on her and her alone. She should be the sole recipient of my attention and desire. And, tbh, at this point in my life the idea of some other woman touching me kinda' gives me the creeps. Ditto MMF: I expect her to have the same very single-minded focus on me... and I'm not about to share her anyway. 

With regard to bondage, she could never be comfortable with being restrained, nor do I have any interest in restraining her. Now while I'm usually the leader, I am intrigued by the idea of her restraining me. We're just talking light bondage here: no pain, no humiliation. She did mention it once and I was thrilled, but it seemed everything else she was doing at the time was very mechanical and driven by duty rather than desire. So I gave up. If you're not going to at least try to have some fun with it, I'm not gonna' be interested. 

Other things not on your list that I would find sexy, and conducive to healthy expression of sexual attraction: Different positions. Multiple activities in a single session. Different locations. 

So, what I think this all boils down to, at least for me, is that I'd like to see enthusiasm in the form of being willing to explore a little more, dropping barriers, letting her guard down. Being willing to work at having a more exciting, intense, varied, fresh, and fun sex life. I want her to throw herself into it with a little abandon. Wanting more orgasms, more importantly, wanting to have them _with me_, and most importantly, seeing the importance of sharing them with me. Not being satisfied with just passively accepting whatever happens during a single monthly missionary session with minimal foreplay. 

Some years ago, I told her it felt like a slap in the face that she didn't think it important to have Os with me. While she may think being satisfied with whatever lets me off the hook and I should be grateful, I had some difficulty trying to get her to understand that the message I get is that I'm not important enough to her for her to want to share her most intimate experience with. And she knows I never want to be let off the hook in the first place, in any aspect of life. She calls me "Atlas" because I'm at my best when I'm carrying the weight of the world on my shoulders. But of course, no matter whether or not I have the capacity to absorb more performance requirements, she doesn't. No matter how lovingly and nonthreateningly I may try to explain my desires, she will always receive it as performance pressure, which I'm sure you know is an O killer. 

Some years later, but still a long time ago, I told her I really wanted more:
1. Frequency
2. Variety
3. Intensity

Now that's admittedly not specific. So I did share some of the specifics above. But again, that is always received as criticism and telling her she's not adequate, so another killer. 

I am expected to lead, but anything I suggest beyond the most basic vanilla is met with what feels like negative judgment or scorn--or why am I not good enough as I am. The best I can hope for is a neutral response that basically boils down to "that's interesting, but I can't get into that." 

So when my ideas and attempts are shut down, maybe she could try to think up ways to give things a boost? She is a voracious reader, podcast consumer, and instructional youtube seeker. Everything from how to be present to how to make small talk to how to make a good first impression to how to meditate to how to yoga and much more, all in great depth and concentration. Maybe she could put some of that time and energy into how to spice things up when we're naked? Nope.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

.


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

LeananSidhe said:


> My feelings weren’t hurt by not getting sex for 2 days, they were hurt because he couldn’t orgasm by having regular PIV sex after spending a week jerking it to porn every night.
> 
> After this happened, he explained his feelings about being rejected to me. I had not realized how he felt because he had given no indication of being upset or hurt. Once he explained I understood how he felt more.



Understood. One of the drawbacks about being a guy is that we tend to be conditioned from an early age not to complain about things we can't seem to change. We get conditioned keep quiet and adapt. That sounds like what happened in your husband's case too. Glad it seems to be working out. Congrats on #3 too...


----------



## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

Edo Edo said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > My feelings weren’t hurt by not getting sex for 2 days, they were hurt because he couldn’t orgasm by having regular PIV sex after spending a week jerking it to porn every night.
> ...


Yes, my husband is a very adaptable, easy going guy. It’s a blessing and a curse. 🙂

Thanks. We love #3 very much. Just pray that we don’t end up with a #4!


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Now consider my wife. She doesn't like to talk about sex. She just says "Sex should be natural." Which in her mind means you don't need to talk about it, you just do it. If it doesn't go well, oh well, that's what nature intended. Or she fears talking about it may lead to confrontation or disagreement. Better to avoid it than face it.


Sub *my husband* for your wife. lol. 

Absolutely spot on the same. 

Aaaaaand, I disagreed with him on that - I wanted more. No, demanded more. 

Eventually, we got those conversations rolling because I wouldn't put up with that non-confrontational fear attitude. I demanded to know more - about him, about what he likes, what he doesn't like, what makes him tick sexually and what I like and don't like - oh, it was a whole lotta talking and doing - and things got waaaay, way better. 

Easy? NO. This kind of pushing for the level of intimacy and excitement I wanted to pump into our marriage is not a path for the faint of heart. 

But, I just banged his brains out this afternoon, shagged him like a sweaty ****. I attribute our fabulous sex life to the fact that we have built an amazing connection by what Nature gave us - brains to work things out and a voice to talk things out. 

Questions, though: If somebody said you'd have the best sex of your life if you went through this obstacle course of hills and valleys and mud pits and brambles - would you do it?


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

SpinyNorman said:


> I suspect sex often leads to attachments, but let's stay grounded here. Some people have sex w/o forming attachments, and having sex is no guarantee of lasting attachment.


I believe that there probably are people who have sex without forming attachments. But science goes against the 99% of the rest of us. 

This is such widely studied and documented fact that you can literally google it or youtube it. 

As for grounded, I'm pretty grounded. It's just that I'm grounded in facts.

You get attached to that thing that you use for sexual gratification. 

Don't believe me, completely give up porn and cruising for sex objects to jack off to. See for how long that works. That will tell you a lot about where your attachments lie.

Your neural pathways are a map for your patterns of thinking. They are like tire tracks in the mud, very powerful. The good news is that they can move and change into new pathways if you CHOOSE and practice different thinking and behavior. Eventually, the old pathways will weaken and the new pathways will take over.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > Now consider my wife. She doesn't like to talk about sex. She just says "Sex should be natural." Which in her mind means you don't need to talk about it, you just do it. If it doesn't go well, oh well, that's what nature intended. Or she fears talking about it may lead to confrontation or disagreement. Better to avoid it than face it.
> ...


Of course. I haven't endured the hardships to date just for the fun of it. I haven't pushed and risked upsetting her or destroying her image of me if I din't have a seriously worthy end result in mind. 

But if I demand she drops her non confrontational attitude, she shuts down completely. She perceives it as an attack and goes completely comm out. And she swears that what makes her tick sexually is really very basic and very simple, and I'm already doing everything that can be done. She truly needs, wants, and expects no more.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I once did a poll (but it got deleted) asking how many people fantasize about their own spouse. It was gender specific and the results were:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s a little sad somehow....
It’s also why I think many women don’t understand why men watch porn and they feel it’s a form of cheating.


Why did the poll get deleted?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> @EleGirl,
> 
> Sorry, I must have skipped over this post earlier.
> 
> ...




Just tying to understand it a bit more and hope you do t mind the questions.

1. Ok so what happens if you try to increase frequency? Does she turn you down actively?

2. What happens if you try a different position or turn her around?

3. From whom? Intensity is something you feel and if you don’t feel it, should it be up to her to make you feel the intensity?

Btw your requests for her to have orgasms with you: I am not sure it is reasonable to ask of something that one has no control over. I’m sure if she could orgasm, she would. Some women have a harder time reaching an orgasm (I’m sure you know that).

I wonder if you perhaps are not setting your expectations too high? Can you not make it work with what you have? 
I’m always grateful when my wife is ‘available’, even if she is not doing a lap dance for me or dressing in her sexiest lingerie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> She truly needs, wants, and expects no more.



Yes women say that. But I don’t think they really mean it. 
My wife used to same that exact same thing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Yes women say that. But I don’t think they really mean it.
> My wife used to same that exact same thing.
> 
> 
> ...


Whatever faults my wife may have, she has never been disingenuous. I believe I can tell when she's being sincere. At the very least, she believes what she's saying. 

I still believe that while she is sincere in her belief, that she simply may not realize what is possible. She doesn't like investing not just money, but also her limited time and energy, in anything she's not _sure _will yield huge benefits. She doesn't like to take chances. And she's not even interested in the results. To be honest, she's easily overwhelmed by intense experiences of any kind, and sex is no different. Better to stick with what's comfortable and easily digested.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Whatever faults my wife may have, she has never been disingenuous. I believe I can tell when she's being sincere. At the very least, she believes what she's saying.


That's nothing to do with being sincere or not sincere. She may _think_ she means it but unless she has experienced something different, she might not know she would want something more or something different herself. 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I still believe that while she is sincere in her belief, that she simply may not realize what is possible. She doesn't like investing not just money, but also her limited time and energy, in anything she's not _sure _will yield huge benefits. She doesn't like to take chances. And she's not even interested in the results. To be honest, she's easily overwhelmed by intense experiences of any kind, and sex is no different. Better to stick with what's comfortable and easily digested.


What is it that *you* want though? Do you want to do more things with her or do you want *her* to make *you* feel something different, something you are not currently feeling with her? Because those are two very different things and the latter is not really her responsibility and something you yourself either feel or don't feel.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Just tying to understand it a bit more and hope you do t mind the questions.
> 
> 1. Ok so what happens if you try to increase frequency? Does she turn you down actively?
> Yes. And these days, her post menopausal body gives her legit reason to do so. Her plumbing needs time to recover after any use.
> ...


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

Edo Edo said:


> - Inherently "Good" or Inherently "Bad" (I do not believe things (porn is a thing) are inherently good or bad. It's how it is used by individual people that determine the result. If you use porn as a form of sexual enhancement or if your spouse leaves you hanging because they have a much lower drive than you, then porn use is a good thing. However, if someone uses porn to the point that their spouse's sexual needs are ignored, then porn use is not good.)


A very valid point, however, I think the industry has resulted in some very unwanted consequences, such as sex trafficking and addiction, objectification of women, and some may argue that that the negatives outweigh the positives.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Yeti I am sorry that you are suffering with this. I would be devastated in your shoes. Feeling desired is my #1 "chemical experience".

Have you asked your wife if she has a want to feel sexual desire for you? I think her answer to that question is what you need to know to determine if you could possibly move forward. 

If you'd like to talk via PM, please do without hesitation. I will practice an exercise with you that my wife and I share.....going into "the no judgement zone". This is a free gift to you with no cost ...ever.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I have to say, feeling desired is the greatest thing. 

On that note; knowing you're desirable your own self is the greatest thing too, and that doesn't give another over reaching control over a component in ones own happiness matrix, so to speak.

A little of this, a little of that, and cooking is good!


----------



## Iechan (Aug 8, 2018)

I think it is if it's
1)behind the spouse's back or secret and not agreed as ok between them or
2)used as a substitute for the spouse, and resulting in neglect in some form
If everyone is ok with it and agrees on it's use in the relationship I think it's definitely not cheating.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> That’s a little sad somehow....
> It’s also why I think many women don’t understand why men watch porn and they feel it’s a form of cheating.
> 
> 
> *Why did the poll get deleted?*


TAM has a rule against polling other user's fantasies. I do think that is a good rule.

My purpose for doing the poll was that wive's often refuse to believe that their husbands can and do enjoy fantasizing about their own wives. Perhaps women get upset and refuse to believe that because they are actually projecting their own lack of desire to fantasize about their own husbands.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

chillymorn69 said:


> por·nog·ra·phy
> 
> pôrˈnäɡrəfē/
> 
> ...


Yes and both are unhelpful for a relationship. Mind you of the two, I would far rather my partner read romance books that watched porn. To me porn is far worse that just reading a book.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Yes and both are unhelpful for a relationship. Mind you of the two, I would far rather my partner read romance books that watched porn. To me porn is far worse that just reading a book.


Whats wrong with porn is you are HD your spouse is LD? Its no more unhealthy for a relationship than rejecting your spouse for sex because you have a "headache".


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> TAM has a rule against polling other user's fantasies. I do think that is a good rule.
> 
> 
> 
> My purpose for doing the poll was that wive's often refuse to believe that their husbands can and do enjoy fantasizing about their own wives. Perhaps women get upset and refuse to believe that because they are actually projecting their own lack of desire to fantasize about their own husbands.


Yes, that is exactly what it is. I didn’t want to say it as directly as this so as to not upset anyone...

What’s wrong with asking people what they are thinking / fantasising about? (From TAM’s perspective). Is it because it’s too close to pornographic content? 

Fantasising about wives must blow people‘s fuses 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Yes, that is exactly what it is. I didn’t want to say it as directly as this so as to not upset anyone...
> 
> What’s wrong with asking people what they are thinking / fantasising about? (From TAM’s perspective). Is it because it’s too close to pornographic content?
> 
> ...


Hey, I fantasize about my W. 😍


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Yes and both are unhelpful for a relationship. Mind you of the two, I would far rather my partner read romance books that watched porn. To me porn is far worse that just reading a book.



Not really. Both the same. It’s more about what goes on in the person’s head while they are watching porn / reading book.

If, after reading a book, you fantasies about falling in love with Prince Charming (or whatever character from book), you are committing emotional infidelity. Or if you imagine stuff while you read how ‘his manly hands pulled her shivering body towards his masculine face and...’ it’s MUCH more impressionable than having some random boobs jumping up and down on screen. Which is just brainless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Hey, I fantasize about my W.




Pervert. Go see a therapist 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Whats wrong with porn is you are HD your spouse is LD? Its no more unhealthy for a relationship than rejecting your spouse for sex because you have a "headache".


Just because they are behaving badly you can as well?


----------



## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

While my wife does not like it, she does not consider it cheating since I am not having sex with anyone, engaging in arousing activities wish anyone, sharing my emotions with anyone, etc.. My wife is secure enough to not feel threatened by porn.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Vinnydee said:


> While my wife does not like it, she does not consider it cheating since I am not having sex with anyone, engaging in arousing activities wish anyone, sharing my emotions with anyone, etc.. My wife is secure enough to not feel threatened by porn.


Nothing to do with being secure. We are in a very strong secure marriage and are also very secure in ourselves. We just know that its not something we would ever want in our marriage and sex life. I would never dream of treating my husband in that way, I respect him far too much. Also I promised to be faithful and that includes in my mind and emotions.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Just because they are behaving badly you can as well?


Guess it depends on your personal morals as to it being 'bad', but it seems like a fair trade, especially if there are quite a lot of 'headaches'. LD isn't inconvenienced and HD gets a good nights sleep. I am just saying, I don't think its fair to paint porn as always a bad thing in relationships and especially if its something that has to do with chronic rejection.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

happiness27 said:


> I believe that there probably are people who have sex without forming attachments.


That wasn't evident when you wrote "humans form attachments with what they are having sex with/to. You can't avoid it "


> But science goes against the 99% of the rest of us.
> 
> This is such widely studied and documented fact that you can literally google it or youtube it.
> 
> As for grounded, I'm pretty grounded. It's just that I'm grounded in facts.


Oh, good. Then you can tell me where you got the fact that 99% of us form attachments to those we have sex with. Because I did google it and I couldn't find such a statistic.


> You get attached to that thing that you use for sexual gratification.
> 
> Don't believe me, completely give up porn and cruising for sex objects to jack off to. See for how long that works. That will tell you a lot about where your attachments lie.


I'll make you a deal, don't accuse me of looking at porn and I won't accuse you of molesting little kids.


> Your neural pathways are a map for your patterns of thinking. They are like tire tracks in the mud, very powerful. The good news is that they can move and change into new pathways if you CHOOSE and practice different thinking and behavior. Eventually, the old pathways will weaken and the new pathways will take over.


So if I understand this correctly, we sometimes have habits, and we sometimes break out of them? Obvious much?

I said in my first post, I suspect some people form attachments as a result of having sex, but some don't. Probably even more people have sex as a result of forming romantic attachments.

What you haven't addressed is that attachments sometimes(probably often) die in spite of having sex.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

"Quote:
Originally Posted by happiness27 View Post
I believe that there probably are people who have sex without forming attachments.
That wasn't evident when you wrote "humans form attachments with what they are having sex with/to. You can't avoid it "
Quote:
But science goes against the 99% of the rest of us. 

This is such widely studied and documented fact that you can literally google it or youtube it. 

As for grounded, I'm pretty grounded. It's just that I'm grounded in facts.
Oh, good. Then you can tell me where you got the fact that 99% of us form attachments to those we have sex with. Because I did google it and I couldn't find such a statistic.
Quote:
You get attached to that thing that you use for sexual gratification. 

Don't believe me, completely give up porn and cruising for sex objects to jack off to. See for how long that works. That will tell you a lot about where your attachments lie.
I'll make you a deal, don't accuse me of looking at porn and I won't accuse you of molesting little kids.
Quote:
Your neural pathways are a map for your patterns of thinking. They are like tire tracks in the mud, very powerful. The good news is that they can move and change into new pathways if you CHOOSE and practice different thinking and behavior. Eventually, the old pathways will weaken and the new pathways will take over.
So if I understand this correctly, we sometimes have habits, and we sometimes break out of them? Obvious much?

I said in my first post, I suspect some people form attachments as a result of having sex, but some don't. Probably even more people have sex as a result of forming romantic attachments.

What you haven't addressed is that attachments sometimes(probably often) die in spite of having sex."

******************************************************************************************************************

I've done a lot of research over many years on the topic of sexual attachments. If you are interested, you could do the same. 

This is a thread about pornography and my post addressed what I have learned about how the human brain works to form sexual attachments - and how powerful the human brain is in creating attachments even to the point of addiction towards the object(s) where the sexual stimulation is coming from. 

You are free to do your own research if you are interested in the topic - or not, if you are not interested.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Mind you of the two, I would far rather my partner read romance books that watched porn. To me porn is far worse that just reading a book.


Someone can watch porn and easily imagine as if they are watching a video of themselves with their spouse (who may be unavailable at that moment). 

By contrast romance novels have so much context and character development that in the words of one of my best friends, "I get so sad after reading these and masturbating because I know my husband will never be able to give me what the characters in these books give to each other!"


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Someone can watch porn and easily imagine as if they are watching a video of themselves with their spouse (who may be unavailable at that moment).
> 
> By contrast romance novels have so much context and character development that in the words of one of my best friends, "I get so sad after reading these and masturbating because I know my husband will never be able to give me what the characters in these books give to each other!"


That's a good point, I guess it comes down to what a couple agrees on for their relationship at the end of the day.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fazz said:


> That's a good point, I guess it comes down to what a couple agrees on for their relationship at the end of the day.


In my opinion I strongly feel that the concept of self exploration needs to be accepted and nurtured by both people in a marriage. 

There are some religious views that suggest a spouse's sexuality each belongs to the other person and that any forms of self gratification is an act of selfishness. But in many psychological philosophies it is suggested that one must possess some degree of selfishness along with the confidence to feel deserving of what you want and to ask for it. So if one person needs some privacy to self explore, that topic should be open for discussion as a couple so that it can be done in a way that is respectful and creates additional desire for the couple. What is OK and not OK is completely up to each couple and that may or may not include porn. 

By contrast if someone wants to be selfish with their desire and just do whatever they want alone while completely hiding those activities from a spouse, that is inherently problematic because it is an act of deception and lying which only serves to violate trust in a marriage which will cause some serious freaking problems. Not the same as cheating, but a very destructive form of behavior. That is why is can be confused with cheating because in comparison both types of behavior can destroy marriages.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Someone can watch porn and easily imagine as if they are watching a video of themselves with their spouse (who may be unavailable at that moment).
> 
> By contrast romance novels have so much context and character development that in the words of one of my best friends, "I get so sad after reading these and masturbating because I know my husband will never be able to give me what the characters in these books give to each other!"


A good point. I was just contemplating on the post yesterday that brought up what about reading romance novels.

Wherein it seems not a long leap to the quote of in those books the character development etc etc and that's an impossible standard if thought about. 

Because the author usually tells the reader what's going on in each character's mind. 

Ie NO interpretation guessing needed! 

The reader knows ALL thoughts, plus all of the writhing, passionate embraces as the sword fights go on around, the nights she felt taken in the castle boudoir but gave in and lost herself in the hours before dawn when her lord came in from the feast smelling of ale but not in an unpleasant way.....

I could go on, but that's enough.

PS I did read all of the Outlander books. Those actually are a good read.

But, the inside view to who's thinking what about who, isn't able to be duplicated in the real world to that level.

And inrw it's impossible for the reader to enjoy the theatrics and passionate sex as in the books, without having to contort their bodies physically and exert some effort. 

They get their "fix" without undue effort.

So, again, a good point. Similar to watching porn? I leave that comparison question and answer to each individual. 

Btw I'm not for or against porn, that's up to each person. Moderation in all things is usually best.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Someone can watch porn and easily imagine as if they are watching a video of themselves with their spouse (who may be unavailable at that moment).


LOL.

I would venture to guess that for MOST guys, the *last* person they're thinking about when they're watching a beautiful 21 year old blond with huge boobs bouncing all over their screen and begging to be ridden by a stallion - is their wife.

Just sayin'. :rofl:


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

My husband once told me that he imagines myself in the porn film, I naturally didn't believe him, until I came to TAM and there were plenty of guys here that say this is not that unusual. If you think about it, busty blonde porn girls are ten a penny...it gets boring pretty quickly. Imagining your wife doing the same sexy taboo things (that she doesn't do in RL) is going to be a fairly hot fantasy if the relationship is healthy and there is strong attraction. When I fantasize I always think about my H so it makes sense to me. Although I don't need much help with my imagination, some men do.

It's not cheating, but it can be harmful to a relationship, and it can also be very healthy. All depends of the mindset of the individuals in a relationship.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> What I watch in porn would say very little about me. It is a different realm than my actual sex life.
> 
> There is one really kinky, awesome thing I love in partnered sex above all other kinky things. That is not something I would ever seek out porn about (never have).
> 
> ...


I personally don't pay a lot of attention to specific acts in porn. Its rarely a specific act that seems to "do it" for my wife. But there is a very common theme of body language that always turns her on, regardless of what the actors are actually doing...


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL.
> 
> I would venture to guess that for MOST guys, the *last* person they're thinking about when they're watching a beautiful 21 year old blond with huge boobs bouncing all over their screen and begging to be ridden by a stallion - is their wife.
> 
> Just sayin'. :rofl:


You watching porn on a VHS or something? I haven't seen anything like that since last century...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I mostly watch for the acts and for seeing people who are enthusiastic about sex. Almost only watch amateur stuff where sometimes they are actually enjoying themselves. Watching people pretend is no fun.

Its just sort of a substitute for my minimal sex life at home.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

uhtred said:


> I mostly watch for the acts and for seeing people who are enthusiastic about sex. Almost only watch amateur stuff where sometimes they are actually enjoying themselves. Watching people pretend is no fun.
> 
> Its just sort of a substitute for my minimal sex life at home.


Its not just for people with minimal sex lives at home. My wife and i prefer amateur videos as well because it looks SO much more genuine. Its the unbridled enthusiasm. THAT is the turn on. They could be mowing lawns for all i care, if they actually look turned on by it, its sexy as hell.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> In my opinion I strongly feel that the concept of self-exploration needs to be accepted and nurtured by both people in a marriage. Badsanta


I agree we shouldn't lose our identity and our sense of self as a result of marriage



badsanta said:


> By contrast if someone wants to be selfish with their desire and just do whatever they want alone while completely hiding those activities from a spouse, that is inherently problematic because it is an act of deception and lying which only serves to violate trust in a marriage which will cause some serious freaking problems. Not the same as cheating, but a very destructive form of behavior. That is why is can be confused with cheating because in comparison both types of behavior can destroy marriages


Definitely, agree with your point. When you feel the need to hide something it is a sign that you are potentially going about it the wrong way.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Could you please explain what the Worse Further bedroom problems you blithely refer to here would be?


I'm sure if you were to reflect on this you could come up with plenty of examples. For example, you could push your partner further away and cause further separation between the two, which would result in you getting even less intimate time together. As a result, the couple could start looking elsewhere to satisfy their emotional needs. This could literally spiral out of control.

Instead, you could start by addressing the root cause as to why your partner is not meeting your sexual needs, and the root cause could have nothing to do with sex whatsoever. If you just jump to satisfying your sexual needs elsewhere, not only are you potentially making the situation worse, you are also leaving the underlying root cause uncovered and unaddressed.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fazz said:


> Instead, you could start by addressing the root cause as to why your partner is not meeting your sexual needs, and the root cause could have nothing to do with sex whatsoever. If you just jump to satisfying your sexual needs elsewhere, not only are you potentially making the situation worse, you are also leaving the underlying root cause uncovered and unaddressed.


 @Fazz most of the time the root cause that one partner may not meet a partner's sexual needs simply boils down to each having different libidos. Libidos can also change over time which is perfectly normal. Researchers say that lovemaking and intimacy in marriages has seasons... some seasons have a lot and some seasons have little. 

Since no one is perfect, every marriage has "problems" that are likely not correlated in any way to one's libido. Everyone can point out those problems and suggest that working on them will improve the marriage and also intimacy, which it may indeed help a little. But this never changes people, and the root cause of each partner having different libidos still remains. 

At the end of the day it may actually boil down to, "hey I can only handle a frequency of so much, and if you need more than that perhaps it is actually better that take care of those urges on your own." If some people never reach that point, then they are perpetually looking for some problem or other root cause to blame. And living in a marriage where you have a partner non stop looking for a problem to address because they are not getting enough sex can destroy a marriage. So trying to find a problem or root cause can actually BE the problem, particularly if everything and everyone is normal. 

Badsanta


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

You're barking up the wrong tree here. Sure the use of porn can harm an otherwise healthy relationship. But a sexless relationship held by a miserly tyrant is in no way healthy or happy. Porn was not the root cause. This is the root cause you are searching for: Loss of trust due to unfulfilled emotional needs. Sex is one of those emotional needs. The spiral is alive.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Fazz said:


> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?


No I don't think watching pornography is cheating on a sexual partner.

In my marriage the viewing of pornographic (inclusive with masturbation), erotic and nude images is not an issue.

My wife has also happily posed for me, so I can take pornographic, erotic and nude photographs of her. She has also given me permission to post some of those pictures on the internet as well. We're trying again on a popular fetish website at the moment.

Likewise she sometimes poses nude for me, so I can create paintings and drawings of her. While for many years she has liked that I draw and paint portraits, of other women and men who generosity pose stark naked for me.

Plus more recently she has been encouraging me to get into doing erotic photography of other women as well.

Regardless of pornography and the like, through more than two decades we've enjoyed a great very active, high quality and frequent sex life together.

I guess if one of us had an issue with the other viewing pornography, it would be a problem. Yet neither of us do, so it isn't a problem.

Since that works for us, we're not buying the idea that pornograhy is bad.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> @Fazz most of the time the root cause that one partner may not meet a partner's sexual needs simply boils down to each having different libidos. Libidos can also change over time which is perfectly normal. *Researchers say that lovemaking and intimacy in marriages has seasons... some seasons have a lot and some seasons have little. *
> 
> 
> Badsanta


Winter is coming.


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I, unfortunately, had to have this discussion with a WW client. Her husband was caught masturbating to pornography. She had revenge by sleeping with a friend. She attempted moral equivalency. She thought, in some bizarro world that masturbation equalled infidelity. I asked if her husband had a living breathing partner when he "cheated". I got the "like no", BUT HE WAS IMAGINING F*CKING THE WOMAN IN THE PORN!. So I asked if in revenge an actual penis entered her vagina? She said yes. I then asked, have you not masturbated during the marriage? She says yes, but not to porn. Oh, so you are allowed to masturbate AND then have an affair. Sorry, honey, but you are WRONG. The realization hit her, then she asked if he would be open to reconciliation. To which I replied, you would have to ask his new girlfriend. That went over like a pork chop at a bar-mitzvah. She was so caught up in her little insular world of self justification, that she did not realize that her husband, that she tossed out, because he jerked off, and then had an ONS and claimed moral equivalency, had murdered her marriage. Her reaction was typically air-headed. "You mean because I screwed XXX, he went out and found someone else? At that point, I just wanted her out of my office. I have a fairly low tolerance for wilful ignorance. I said, you screwed yourself. You thought you were getting him back? You got yourself. Have fun, because, I no longer represent you, you should go and get a really good divorce attorney, as I think your ex Husband is going to go scorched earth. What does scorched earth mean? Oh, he has been keeping his mouth shut about what went on to end this marriage. He is no longer feeling like keeping his silence for you. In fact, he has stated that his feelings for you have pretty much turned to hate. "He hates me for f8cking XXX?" "What is he going to do?" I replied that according to our last conversation, he has already retained legal counsel, he is proceeding with divorce. He wants the house and most of the money. Oh, you had better tell, because he began doing so a few days ago. She was ashen faced, I realized that this was a fairly ignorant flake, and she tripped over her own moral equivalency, when in all practical terms, it did not exist. My question to her, have you ever heard of anyone making a divorce stick over masturbation? Her answer, "Like, no, but I thought......" You thought, is not moral equivalency, he used his hand. You used a third party. Now, you lost. Big time lost. NO, in no uncertain terms pornography and masturbation are not equivalent to infidelity. Sorry. In a court of law, you will get one big fat horse laugh. I had a female client, who thought that porno equaled infidelity, now she wonders what she is going to do with the rest of her life.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> She thought, in some bizarro world that masturbation equalled infidelity.


Sadly, I know people who think this way. Your spouse won;t meet your sexual needs, AND you can't look at porn ever AND you can't masturbate.

So you might as well just spontaneously combust and get it over with lol


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I take my medications every day. So I can stick around a long time. And annoy the heck out of my wife every gosh darn day. No spontaneous combustion here. If she thinks I am leaving early to make her life more convenient, she has another think coming.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL.
> 
> I would venture to guess that for MOST guys, the *last* person they're thinking about when they're watching a beautiful 21 year old blond with huge boobs bouncing all over their screen and begging to be ridden by a stallion - is their wife.
> 
> Just sayin'. :rofl:


I don't know, have you ever asked? I've done it frequently.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

For some incredibly stupid reasoning, masturbation has been made equivalent to cheating. Huh? My own hand on my **** is in no way a cheat. Those, who think that it is cheating, please reference yourself to my previous comment. I have had contact with people that thought in this manner, and all of them LOST in the separation and the divorce. They could not get past that little vestige of Victorian morality. The consequence was that all of these people lost their marriages, and when the reality of the situation hit them, they were unprepared for the fallout. In another case, the wife did not have a revenge affair, instead she instituted divorce proceedings. I was representing the husband, and her contention came out in the first hour of discoveries. It may sound highly unprofessional, however, myself, the attorney representing the husband, and our reporter taking notes were all literally chuckling at her statements. She caught him having alone time in the shower. She was mortified that he masturbated. She called it "mental cheating". I looked across the table and wondered aloud exactly who was mental. Her attorney was having great difficulty impressing upon her that her contentions were spurious and frankly laughable. Her husband just kept referring to her as "uptight bi+ch". Unfortunately, she was the only female in the room, and to keep it from seeming like the men were ganging up on her, I asked my business partner into the meeting for some "female solidarity". Unfortunately, my partner is a very no-nonsense, straight arrow. She asked why the wife was seeking divorce, and when it was explained to her, she could not contain herself. The first sentence out of her mouth brought the wife to utter despair: "Are you f*cking out of your goddamned mind? You kicked him out for whacking off? Are you retarded?" The wife was dumbfounded that my FEMALE business partner did not consider masturbation a crime. To which she replied, "Hey, let him whack off once in a while, maybe I can get some work done in the house instead of having to peel him off me. You, are a f'king idiot, and I have no time for idiots. My partner walked out, and the wife dissolved into a puddle. Her husband was also not inclined to be very forgiving.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

> Researchers say that lovemaking and intimacy in marriages has seasons... some seasons have a lot and some seasons have little.





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Winter is coming.












If anyone knows a marriage/relationship is having troubles, it will be your ISP! Check out this winter ad that features "Free Unlimited Night Browsing" ...wow! I wonder what demographic is targeted there?

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Taxman said:


> For some incredibly stupid reasoning, masturbation has been made equivalent to cheating. Huh? My own hand on my **** is in no way a cheat. Those, who think that it is cheating, please reference yourself to my previous comment. I have had contact with people that thought in this manner, and all of them LOST in the separation and the divorce. They could not get past that little vestige of Victorian morality. The consequence was that all of these people lost their marriages, and when the reality of the situation hit them, they were unprepared for the fallout. In another case, the wife did not have a revenge affair, instead she instituted divorce proceedings. I was representing the husband, and her contention came out in the first hour of discoveries. It may sound highly unprofessional, however, myself, the attorney representing the husband, and our reporter taking notes were all literally chuckling at her statements. She caught him having alone time in the shower. She was mortified that he masturbated. She called it "mental cheating". I looked across the table and wondered aloud exactly who was mental. Her attorney was having great difficulty impressing upon her that her contentions were spurious and frankly laughable. Her husband just kept referring to her as "uptight bi+ch". Unfortunately, she was the only female in the room, and to keep it from seeming like the men were ganging up on her, I asked my business partner into the meeting for some "female solidarity". Unfortunately, my partner is a very no-nonsense, straight arrow. She asked why the wife was seeking divorce, and when it was explained to her, she could not contain herself. The first sentence out of her mouth brought the wife to utter despair: "Are you f*cking out of your goddamned mind? You kicked him out for whacking off? Are you retarded?" The wife was dumbfounded that my FEMALE business partner did not consider masturbation a crime. To which she replied, "Hey, let him whack off once in a while, maybe I can get some work done in the house instead of having to peel him off me. You, are a f'king idiot, and I have no time for idiots. My partner walked out, and the wife dissolved into a puddle. Her husband was also not inclined to be very forgiving.


Way to go reducing a woman "to a puddle". This was the worst possible scenario I can think of to destroy a human being. The woman needed counseling to understand how human sexuality works - not a demoralizing humiliation for being naive. Too bad lawyers don't have a code of ethics like physicians do - First, do no harm.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Taxman said:


> She caught him having alone time in the shower. She was mortified that he masturbated. She called it "mental cheating".


There was once a story of a wife that caught her husband in the shower enjoying some alone time, and she was extremely upset by it. This wife happened to have a collection of adult novelties and her husband discovered that he could enjoy them as well. He took a rather phallic one to the shower with him that had a suction cup and the wife caught him enjoying it. She was really upset because she did not want her novelties being used in that manner for cleanliness reasons, and she was very disturbed to know where it had been and realizing that the two of them had been sharing it. 

Now if that story were to play out in divorce proceedings, I think the guy would be the one reduced to a puddle! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> There was once a story of a wife that caught her husband in the shower enjoying some alone time, and she was extremely upset by it. This wife happened to have a collection of adult novelties and her husband discovered that he could enjoy them as well. He took a rather phallic one to the shower with him that had a suction cup and the wife caught him enjoying it. She was really upset because she did not want her novelties being used in that manner for cleanliness reasons, and she was very disturbed to know where it had been and realizing that the two of them had been sharing it.
> 
> Now if that story were to play out in divorce proceedings, I think the guy would be the one reduced to a puddle!
> 
> ...


hmmm... 
She's supposed to be okay having *direct *genital contact with him, but is disturbed by having contact with an intermediary device? 

And he's using it in the shower for crying out loud. It's obviously getting cleaned while in use! 

That said, definitely poor form on his part to partake in her personals without her knowledge and consent.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> hmmm...
> She's supposed to be okay having *direct *genital contact with him, but is disturbed by having contact with an intermediary device?
> 
> And he's using it in the shower for crying out loud. It's obviously getting cleaned while in use!
> ...


One presumes that he was using it in an orifice that she was not accustomed to having direct genital contact with, which is sound advice.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

happiness27 said:


> Way to go reducing a woman "to a puddle". This was the worst possible scenario I can think of to destroy a human being. The woman needed counseling to understand how human sexuality works - not a demoralizing humiliation for being naive. Too bad lawyers don't have a code of ethics like physicians do - First, do no harm.


EXCEPT---we were already in discoveries as a consequence of her filing for divorce. She had already removed him from their home, and was carrying on as if he had banged three dozen nuns in their bed, when all he did was jerk off. Oh, poor poo poo, her world view was challenged and she discovered she was so full of shytte that her eyes were brown. It came as a complete surprise when she was quoted chapter and verse from a goodly number of psychiatric and psycho-social textbooks that masturbation is completely normal and healthy. She admitted that her mother would routinely slap her if she was caught. She was told as a child that masturbation was evil and NOT what married people do. She got the real truth, and she had deep sixed her marriage because of a fallacy inside her head. The thought that she had ended her marriage over this really hit her straight between the eyes. The end of the story is that he exacted a goodly amount of revenge on her. He refused to reconcile. He made it quite clear, as well that her reasons for ejecting him from the marriage would be explained in detail to any man that she decided to date. She did not date. What she had was six months of begging, pleading, seeing psychiatrists, counsellors. She realized how truly f'ed up her head was. She admitted that before she walked into the bathroom, she thought their marriage was very good. Then her mother's voice in her head, literally had her kicking him out while he was still wet from the shower. Nothing he said was any good. Within a week, he basically told her to go f'ck herself. He was done, if that was the reason she was going to be a shrew. They are reconciled now. Her personality and her righteous indignation at a number of issues is now very much subdued. So, she admitted she deserved every thing that happened.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Cletus said:


> One presumes that he was using it in an orifice that she was not accustomed to having direct genital contact with, which is sound advice.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Thanks for the clarification. I guess my imagination was a little lacking. 

Were I to use it in that particular manner, not only would my wife be mortified for sanitary reasons, she'd also be mortified that I was...well.. using it in that manner. :surprise:


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Cletus said:


> I don't know, have you ever asked? I've done it frequently.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


That's why I didn't say *ALL*.

See how that works?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's why I didn't say *ALL*.
> 
> See how that works?


Yeah, in fact, this dim bulb understands exactly how that works.

It requires one to have a sampling of men for whom you have asked the question and received an honest answer before you can say "most" with any assurance. With no such sampling at hand, we are both guessing, but I suspect you might be surprised by the answer. 

Now stuff the condescension into your inadequate sample size.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Taxman said:


> For some incredibly stupid reasoning, masturbation has been made equivalent to cheating. Huh? My own hand on my **** is in no way a cheat. Those, who think that it is cheating, please reference yourself to my previous comment. I have had contact with people that thought in this manner, and all of them LOST in the separation and the divorce. They could not get past that little vestige of Victorian morality. The consequence was that all of these people lost their marriages, and when the reality of the situation hit them, they were unprepared for the fallout. In another case, the wife did not have a revenge affair, instead she instituted divorce proceedings. I was representing the husband, and her contention came out in the first hour of discoveries. It may sound highly unprofessional, however, myself, the attorney representing the husband, and our reporter taking notes were all literally chuckling at her statements. She caught him having alone time in the shower. She was mortified that he masturbated. She called it "mental cheating". I looked across the table and wondered aloud exactly who was mental. Her attorney was having great difficulty impressing upon her that her contentions were spurious and frankly laughable. Her husband just kept referring to her as "uptight bi+ch". Unfortunately, she was the only female in the room, and to keep it from seeming like the men were ganging up on her, I asked my business partner into the meeting for some "female solidarity". Unfortunately, my partner is a very no-nonsense, straight arrow. She asked why the wife was seeking divorce, and when it was explained to her, she could not contain herself. The first sentence out of her mouth brought the wife to utter despair: "Are you f*cking out of your goddamned mind? You kicked him out for whacking off? Are you retarded?" The wife was dumbfounded that my FEMALE business partner did not consider masturbation a crime. To which she replied, "Hey, let him whack off once in a while, maybe I can get some work done in the house instead of having to peel him off me. You, are a f'king idiot, and I have no time for idiots. My partner walked out, and the wife dissolved into a puddle. Her husband was also not inclined to be very forgiving.


masturbation and porn use are not the same thing at all.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Taxman said:


> I, unfortunately, had to have this discussion with a WW client. Her husband was caught masturbating to pornography. She had revenge by sleeping with a friend. She attempted moral equivalency. She thought, in some bizarro world that masturbation equalled infidelity. I asked if her husband had a living breathing partner when he "cheated". I got the "like no", BUT HE WAS IMAGINING F*CKING THE WOMAN IN THE PORN!. So I asked if in revenge an actual penis entered her vagina? She said yes. I then asked, have you not masturbated during the marriage? She says yes, but not to porn. Oh, so you are allowed to masturbate AND then have an affair. Sorry, honey, but you are WRONG. The realization hit her, then she asked if he would be open to reconciliation. To which I replied, you would have to ask his new girlfriend. That went over like a pork chop at a bar-mitzvah. She was so caught up in her little insular world of self justification, that she did not realize that her husband, that she tossed out, because he jerked off, and then had an ONS and claimed moral equivalency, had murdered her marriage. Her reaction was typically air-headed. "You mean because I screwed XXX, he went out and found someone else? At that point, I just wanted her out of my office. I have a fairly low tolerance for wilful ignorance. I said, you screwed yourself. You thought you were getting him back? You got yourself. Have fun, because, I no longer represent you, you should go and get a really good divorce attorney, as I think your ex Husband is going to go scorched earth. What does scorched earth mean? Oh, he has been keeping his mouth shut about what went on to end this marriage. He is no longer feeling like keeping his silence for you. In fact, he has stated that his feelings for you have pretty much turned to hate. "He hates me for f8cking XXX?" "What is he going to do?" I replied that according to our last conversation, he has already retained legal counsel, he is proceeding with divorce. He wants the house and most of the money. Oh, you had better tell, because he began doing so a few days ago. She was ashen faced, I realized that this was a fairly ignorant flake, and she tripped over her own moral equivalency, when in all practical terms, it did not exist. My question to her, have you ever heard of anyone making a divorce stick over masturbation? Her answer, "Like, no, but I thought......" You thought, is not moral equivalency, he used his hand. You used a third party. Now, you lost. Big time lost. NO, in no uncertain terms pornography and masturbation are not equivalent to infidelity. Sorry. In a court of law, you will get one big fat horse laugh. I had a female client, who thought that porno equaled infidelity, now she wonders what she is going to do with the rest of her life.


One woman I read about said that she wished that it has just been one woman in an affair that her husband was involved in, rather that hundreds or thousands of women in the porn he looked at. She could deal with one but not thousands. I totally see her point, for her it was far worse and was devastating. 

I see masturbation as different from porn use. Its not the same thing.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Cletus said:


> I don't know, have you ever asked? I've done it frequently.


To expand on this:

I personally use a little porn occasionally to fill in the holes in my sexually mismatched marriage. 

I'd really rather be doing these things with my wife, but with a 3-sigma vanilla partner, that isn't possible. I am not replacing sex with my wife with an actress I would rather have, I am placing myself in a fantasy world where I have a more sexually engaged partner. One that does not and never will exist. That is part of my coping strategy that keeps my marriage intact. 

So yes, I sometimes fantasize about my spouse while that 20-something is bouncing around on the screen. Because my spouse is the person I would really rather be doing these same things with.

You will have to decide for yourself if that constitutes cheating.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> "hey I can only handle a frequency of so much, and if you need more than that perhaps it is actually better that take care of those urges on your own."


That is valid, and I agree with what you have written, my personal caveat is that this still needs to be agreed upon by a couple rather than carried out of spite or frustration.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Fazz said:


> That is valid, and I agree with what you have written, my personal caveat is that this still needs to be agreed upon by a couple rather than carried out of spite or frustration.


I would add a condition to this. If my spouse is earnestly working to resolve amicably our sexual mismatch, then my spouse gets a say in how I cope with the mismatch (masturbation, porn use, etc.) while we are working toward resolving the underlying problem. If my spouse is NOT earnestly working toward resolving our sexual mismatch, then my spouse gets no say in how I cope.

Of course, if we are at that point, then most likely it is better for both of us if we get divorced rather than carrying on together.

But I do not agree with empowering the LD to have a veto not only over the couple's partner sex (which they clearly are entitled to veto at will), but over their spouse's solo sex. Sorry, you get a choice. One or the other. Meet my sexual needs or leave me to my own devices. But once you leave me to my own devices, you do not get a veto over how I cope with your decision.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> "hey I can only handle a frequency of so much, and if you need more than that perhaps it is actually better that take care of those urges on your own."





Fazz said:


> That is valid, and I agree with what you have written, *my personal caveat is that this still needs to be agreed upon by a couple rather than carried out of spite or frustration.*


 @Fazz I kind of agree with you, but you have to appreciate that your personal caveat of requiring an agreement can be rather destructive. Let me word things out a little more realistically for how this "agreement" might play out for some couples...



Spouse1 said:


> I want to be with you tonight!





Spouse2 said:


> No, not tonight!





Spouse1 said:


> I am so in the mood and you look incredible this evening, and it has been such a long time since we last made love!





Spouse2 said:


> I gave you oral just yesterday...





Spouse1 said:


> That is not the same, I want to be with you as in traditional lovemaking, and it has been two weeks since we have done that.





Spouse2 said:


> Tomorrow night would be better.





Spouse1 said:


> That us what you said last night.





Spouse2 said:


> But then you kept on bothering me about how aroused you were, so I gave you oral and I thought that would be it for this week.





Spouse1 said:


> Can't we just try, and if you can't get in the mood after some foreplay then we do not have to do anything.





Spouse2 said:


> All that will do is make you even more aroused and I will feel even worse for feeling like I will never be enough for you!





Spouse1 said:


> Well then don't get upset at me for going and looking at porn!





Spouse2 said:


> I can only handle a frequency of so much, and if you need more than that perhaps it is actually better that take care of those urges on your own!


....OK, so what just happened there, and is it really OK for one to go and watch porn in that situation? That situation is just an extremely ugly situation to be in. Spouse1 just got rejected and is likely feeling hurt that Spouse2 would not even try. Spouse2 is likely devastated to have almost no libido in the relationship and feels totally inadequate to make Spouse1 happy. 

What is the root cause? Each has a different libido. Spouse2 can only handle intimacy (in any form) just once a week. Spouse1 would want to be intimate daily. I also wrote this situation to be gender neutral because it can play out from both ways with either a husband or wife being the one with little or no libido. 

So my point being is that if you are in a marriage where you know you have a much more active libido that your spouse, and your spouse can only handle so much, then you have to be reserved, discrete, and patient in order to help make things work. One should probably never push a spouse to have to say, "just go take care of yourself!" Instead one should just take care of things discretely and work on keeping a positive attitude on trying to make the best of the what they have. 

Some might say just divorce in this situation, but I do believe slightly mismatched libidos create diversity and push personal development forwards in the marriage if both can keep a positive attitude about it. *Sometimes the discrete use of porn is just a tool to help keep things balanced, especially when it relieves moments of frustration.*


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I would add a condition to this. *If my spouse is earnestly working to resolve amicably our sexual mismatch, then my spouse gets a say in how I cope with the mismatch (masturbation, porn use, etc.) while we are working toward resolving the underlying problem. If my spouse is NOT earnestly working toward resolving our sexual mismatch, then my spouse gets no say in how I cope.*
> 
> Of course, if we are at that point, then most likely it is better for both of us if we get divorced rather than carrying on together.
> 
> But I do not agree with empowering the LD to have a veto not only over the couple's partner sex (which they clearly are entitled to veto at will), but over their spouse's solo sex. Sorry, you get a choice. One or the other. Meet my sexual needs or leave me to my own devices. But once you leave me to my own devices, you do not get a veto over how I cope with your decision.


*Well said!*

Also sometimes there are moments in a marriage where there is just going to be no teamwork and you have to give it some time. My wife is generally very open to working together on things, but from time to time I'll do something stupid that will make her angry at me, and she generally waits quite a while before burying the hatchet!

Kind of like a temporary ban on TAM, you got to give it some time!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

peacem said:


> My husband once told me that he imagines myself in the porn film, I naturally didn't believe him, until I came to TAM and there were plenty of guys here that say this is not that unusual. If you think about it, busty blonde porn girls are ten a penny...it gets boring pretty quickly. Imagining your wife doing the same sexy taboo things (that she doesn't do in RL) is going to be a fairly hot fantasy if the relationship is healthy and there is strong attraction. When I fantasize I always think about my H so it makes sense to me. Although I don't need much help with my imagination, some men do.
> 
> It's not cheating, but it can be harmful to a relationship, and it can also be very healthy. All depends of the mindset of the individuals in a relationship.




Yes, definitely. I think it’s something that’s hard for women to understand. I’m ‘conditioned’ to my wife and find her way hotter than anything in porn. I do sometimes imagine her. 
What I don’t do is imagine myself banging that woman on the screen; I know this is hard for women to understand why that would be the case. I presume because they would be imagining banging the dude or sucking his **** if they were watching porn themselves so they must assume men’s brains work the same way...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Not making a definitive statement here; just thinking out loud and forming a hypothesis.

Maybe for some women, porn is so hurtful for an entirely different aspect of being compared to the "actresses." It's easy to say (and actually believe) that it's totally unfair because they can never be that woman with the 38D cup or whatever physical attributes give them the negative body image issues. 

...but...

what's really underlying the drive to not be compared is they actually could, if they wanted, do oral sex, or a more exotic position, or do whatever it is they are willing to do more than once a month... and actually find a way to enjoy the act itself or at least find a way to enjoy pleasing their partner. But they don't want to be faced with that reality. 

It's much more damning to be faced with not doing something that is within your power than something that is outside your ability, but easy to fall back on that which is outside your capability as the scapegoat.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> One woman I read about said that she wished that it has just been one woman in an affair that her husband was involved in, rather that hundreds or thousands of women in the porn he looked at. She could deal with one but not thousands. I totally see her point, for her it was far worse and was devastating.
> 
> 
> 
> I see masturbation as different from porn use. Its not the same thing.




Yeah this is totally bizarro world to me...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It's much more damning to be faced with not doing something that is within your power than something that is outside your ability, but easy to fall back on that which is outside your capability as the scapegoat.


Its quite a shocker going full circle to realise *I* held the cards all along, just didn't know the rules of the game....and that *he* is far more insecure than I ever was.

Scapegoat is the right word.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> @Fazz I kind of agree with you, but you have to appreciate that your personal caveat of requiring an agreement can be rather destructive. Let me word things out a little more realistically for how this "agreement" might play out for some couples...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Urrgh. I would have stopped the conversation after the first word (no). No discussion / pestering necessary. If the ‘no’ was a regular occurrence, that would require a specific discussion: not about porn and asking for sex but about children’s visitation hours in the future. Sorry but that’s just demeaning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I can't just masturbate without some visual stimulation. My imagination sucks. But I'm not really sure what the difference between masturbating thinking about some hot busty blonde you saw on the elevator or watching a video of a hot busty blonde get banged on screen. Seems if you are thinking about someone IRL it would be even worse than just some porn star you will never come across.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> @Fazz *Sometimes the discrete use of porn is just a tool to help keep things balanced, especially when it relieves moments of frustration.*


I think what you shared is reasonable, I guess it's really hard to apply a blanket rule, and each scenario needs to be addressed in a way that is appropriate to it.

My original comment was about not doing it out of spite and anger, however, if there is a reasonable and logical decision behind it, which is with the intent of bettering the situation and the marriage, then I can agree.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

When I look at porn, I mainly look at pics and not for masturbation. I am very visually stimulated and I enjoy the dopamine rush. My wife has actually made the statement that she is glad that I look at porn. WHUT??? She said that it let's her know that I am a man and that I love women. She likes knowing that, at 48, her in a tank top and braless can get a better reaction than a tight bodied 25 year old spread eagle in great lighting. It reinforces that I dig her and find her imperfectly perfect.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

badsanta said:


> @Fazz I kind of agree with you, but you have to appreciate that your personal caveat of requiring an agreement can be rather destructive. Let me word things out a little more realistically for how this "agreement" might play out for some couples...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If that conversation of begging took place between my wife and I, I think I would be relegated to watching a lot more porn. I wouldn't blame her for instantly losing attraction.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Urrgh. I would have stopped the conversation after the first word (no). No discussion / pestering necessary. If the ‘no’ was a regular occurrence, that would require a specific discussion: not about porn and asking for sex but about children’s visitation hours in the future. Sorry but that’s just demeaning.


I completely agree! I was just hypothetically illustrating and dramatizing a situtaion of one partner solidly rejecting the other, and the partner with desire trying to turn toward's their spouse before withdrawing and sadly using porn alone. Particularly to demonstrate to the OP that one should NOT push the lower drive spouse to tell the other to just go ^%$ themselves. 

Another way to look at that situation would be to imagine hypothetically that the person that said 'no' was actually the one using porn afterwards or before. Now that is where porn does turn into a serious problem and is almost on par with a form of infidelity.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fazz said:


> I think what you shared is reasonable, I guess it's really hard to apply a blanket rule, and each scenario needs to be addressed in a way that is appropriate to it.
> 
> My original comment was about not doing it out of spite and anger, however, if there is a reasonable and logical decision behind it, which is with the intent of bettering the situation and the marriage, then I can agree.


Just out of curiosity, would you share more about your personal struggles with porn? Otherwise it is kind of hard to appreciate a scenario that you might be needing help or advice. It almost seems as if you started this thread to try and offer advice to others which is counterintuitive to those trying to help you.

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Yep. After the sex talk, once, that was a thing I never had again. When I had it years ago my closing conversation was literally "and I'll never bring this up again, I wanted to communicate earnestly, clearly, and in great hopes we get in synch but I'll never try and debate you into having sex. When I look back I do want to know I communicated clearly on this".

And I didn't have the talk when any physical, hormonal, family, emotional or other issues in our lives were obstacles, those times are normal wax/wane periods in any ltr.

Dear W did realize we were in a rut because of said times and although we were all better, we both had fallen into the habit of not putting each other first. 

Was there discrete porn but with knowledge? Yes..

After the talk it was back on track physically. We've been great ever since.

Love the W.
Emotionally and physically. 😍😍😍


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Just out of curiosity, would you share more about your personal struggles with porn? Otherwise it is kind of hard to appreciate a scenario that you might be needing help or advice. It almost seems as if you started this thread to try and offer advice to others which is counterintuitive to those trying to help you.
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


The reason I started this thread was due to a conversation with some friends around the topic of pornography within marriage, one person held the view that watching porn is equivalent to cheating in a relationship and we went back and forth on the topic, and I decided to write here and get different views on the topic and to get a feel for what the general consensus is, and naturally share my own view here too.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Fazz said:


> The reason I started this thread was due to a conversation with some friends around the topic of pornography within marriage, one person held the view that watching porn is equivalent to cheating in a relationship and we went back and forth on the topic, and I decided to write here and get different views on the topic and to get a feel for what the general consensus is, and naturally share my own view here too.


The topic of pornography use within relationships is always controversial.

Over a decade ago Oprah had a forum with this exact same topic and it had thousands of replies. I read all of them and came to one conclusion. Porn is not as big of a problem as it is to lie about porn when asked by a spouse. Almost everyone can agree about that. Yet so many lie about it.... and the respective divorces cite porn as the problem instead of lying and violating trust with porn. 

Regards,
Badsanta


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Only if it were involving live interaction, or some type of interaction that turned into texting, emailing. Occasionally viewing porn, no. But, saying that, I don't think that it's a ''given'' that all men do this in marriages, or at all. Our society sort of implies that all men are doing this, so just accept it. Also, a lot of women view porn, without their men knowing it, so it's not just a male-only thing. 

Would men consider it cheating if their wives were viewing porn, and getting off without them around? The question always seems to be asked of us, and never the men here.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

badsanta said:


> The topic of pornography use within relationships is always controversial.
> 
> Over a decade ago Oprah had a forum with this exact same topic and it had thousands of replies. I read all of them and came to one conclusion. Porn is not as big of a problem as it is to lie about porn when asked by a spouse. Almost everyone can agree about that. Yet so many lie about it.... and the respective divorces cite porn as the problem instead of lying and violating trust with porn.
> 
> ...


I think Ill enjoy 10 mins of /GoneWildOver30 before we get up to go on our hike this morning


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

*Deidre* said:


> Would men consider it cheating if their wives were viewing porn, and getting off without them around? The question always seems to be asked of us, and never the men here.


I would have the same answer as we often hear under the standard gender configuration.

So long as it wasn't done_ instead of _having sex with her husband, I wouldn't see it as being a problem. If her satisfying herself without me meant she didn't want or need me, then we've got a problem. But whatever she may do over and above meeting my needs is cool.


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Would men consider it cheating if their wives were viewing porn, and getting off without them around? The question always seems to be asked of us, and never the men here.


Obviously its an individual thing - there will always be someone who bucks the trend. But my experience of my H and what other men have said here (very generally speaking), the idea of their wives watching porn is a huge turn on. What I have also noticed is there is a significant number of men who get more threatened by vibrators 'moving' in the drawer. My theory is there is a difference between 'visual' and 'physical' for men in terms of being threatened. Also the idea that their lovely lady is getting turned on by the same thing that they do is more rewarding than a silicone peice of rubber. I admit the subject fascinates me. :smile2:


----------



## GHaynes (Mar 12, 2018)

I always say, if you have to lie about it, it's cheating. I told my husband I don't want to see it and heaven help him if the kids find it, but as long as he's not choosing it over me, I don't mind. He doesn't lie about it and I don't ask about it. Not cheating.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> Would men consider it cheating if their wives were viewing porn, and getting off without them around?


I'm fine with that.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

It's not "cheating" per say. Unless it is something live or of someone you know, IMO.

BUT it would absolutely be a possible deal breaker for me. If I caught my husband doing porn and he was unwilling to give it up then we would be done.

#1 We set no porn as a boundary and breaking that would be a breach of trust.
#2 I already struggle with sexual self worth problems, and if my husband preferred porn over me it would absolutely gut me and would probably be un-repairable. 
#3 I have several friends whose husband have struggled with porn addiction or still are and it has completely ruined and damaged the marriages. 

If couples agree that porn is okay, that is fine for them. In my marriage it would never work or be okay.


----------



## greg28 (Jun 26, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> I do see it as a form of cheating yes. Its mental cheating. I wouldn't be with a man who thought that porn was ok, because to me its definitely not ok in any form. I see it as unloving and disrespectful to me, and as being unfaithful.
> 
> if I was with a man who I found out was looking at porn, and he refused to stop, I would not stay with him.
> 
> I know marriages that were destroyed because of porn use, and porn is cited in 60% of all divorces now.


Are you f***ing serious? Unloving? Disrespectful? Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women and the ones who are angered or offended by it usually are the ones who have terrible sex lives or no partner at all. If your partner is a male then yes he enjoys watching porn. If he doesn’t, then he is lying to you. The same way he lies when he tells you how awesome your bi annual missionary sex is. Poor guy..


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

greg28 said:


> Are you f***ing serious? Unloving? Disrespectful? Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women and the ones who are angered or offended by it usually are the ones who have terrible sex lives or no partner at all. If your partner is a male then yes he enjoys watching porn. If he doesn’t, then he is lying to you. The same way he lies when he tells you how awesome your bi annual missionary sex is. Poor guy..


So you are unable to tolerate anyone whose view is different from your own.


----------



## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

greg28 said:


> Are you f***ing serious? Unloving? Disrespectful? Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women and the ones who are angered or offended by it usually are the ones who have terrible sex lives or no partner at all. If your partner is a male then yes he enjoys watching porn. If he doesn’t, then he is lying to you. The same way he lies when he tells you how awesome your bi annual missionary sex is. Poor guy..


Your post is a joke.

Sexual imagery is definitely stimulating to me, porn does offend me, and I love sex.

My husband has not viewed porn and has no intention too. Not EVERY male views and enjoys porn. A lot, for sure.

I would feel unloved and disrespected if my husband viewed porn, and I would NOT get into a relationship with a man who thought it was fine/normal. That is my personal boundary.

It is very rude to imply that because someone is not okay with porn that they have a boring non-existent sex life. On the contrary my husband and I try to fulfill whatever desires/needs we have and don't need to look elsewhere for fulfillment. 

I am fine with people disagreeing about porn, or enjoying it in their relationship. But prude bashing is not needed.


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

I also wanted to add that my husband is even more strict about sexual imagery than me! So it cracks me up when people imply every man is okay with porn or they are lying. 

He makes me look up R rated movies and make sure there isn't too much nudity before we watch, and doesn't like to me watch highly sexualized shows like game of thrones.

It does frustrate me occasionally but I respect his opinion. It is his preference to save his sexual energy for me only and I do love and respect him for it. Tasteful nudity (it's usually boobs anyway) doesn't bother me so I do watch more raunchy movies/shows without him. But I know when to draw the line if it would make him unhappy for me to view. 

Views on porn are highly subjective and you need to work that out with your partner and not worry about what other people think, IMO. What works for some won't work for all.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

greg28 said:


> Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women


 @greg28 are you one of those guys that finds the batteries in almost all vibrators are faulty and will not hold a charge?


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

greg28 said:


> Are you f***ing serious? Unloving? Disrespectful? Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women and the ones who are angered or offended by it usually are the ones who have terrible sex lives or no partner at all. If your partner is a male then yes he enjoys watching porn. If he doesn’t, then he is lying to you. The same way he lies when he tells you how awesome your bi annual missionary sex is. Poor guy..



You are so wrong if you think that all men look at porn, you want to think that because it makes you feel better but its not the case at all. Not all men are the same as you believe it or not. 
I am happily married with a good, varied, regular and enjoyable sex life with a husband who is stricter than I am about these things and I am totally 100% against porn and so is he. We aren't the only ones by any means. I love him because he doesn't use it, and our sex life is far better as a result or the way he puts me first. I find his moral values and desire to stay away from these things very attractive and appealing. I would rather be single than with a man who looked at porn. 

It seems you cant cope with the fact that some people hate porn and don't have it in their lives and marriages and so resort to rudeness, lies and personal attacks. Nice.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

TheCuriousWife said:


> I also wanted to add that my husband is even more strict about sexual imagery than me! So it cracks me up when people imply every man is okay with porn or they are lying.
> 
> He makes me look up R rated movies and make sure there isn't too much nudity before we watch, and doesn't like to me watch highly sexualized shows like game of thrones.
> 
> ...


You have a good man, he sounds like mine. He won't watch any TV or films with sex scenes or nudity in. Even some adverts here in the UK are over the top now, so we record things and wizz through them.
Its not common to find a man who goes against the flow, but its special when you do.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I don't care to see these things either at this point in my life. 

Is that because I'm a good man, or just because I'm turning 54? If it's because of my age, is it because 54 year olds aren't interested in general, or because I've developed some sort of special wisdom along the way?

It appears every woman who says her man isn't watching porn also follows up with the corollary that they don't deny him sex, and that they are fully committed to meeting his needs. This is wonderful. They meet each others' needs and neither then feels the need to access porn. 

But that does nothing to address all the partners whose needs are not being addressed. What are their options. Porn? Divorce? Martyrdom and suffering? None of those are good options. Whichever is more morally abhorrent than the others will depend on the person living them and the person causing them.


----------



## greg28 (Jun 26, 2018)

“But that does nothing to address all the partners whose needs are not being addressed. What are their options. Porn? Divorce? Martyrdom and suffering? None of those are good options. Whichever is more morally abhorrent than the others will depend on the person living them and the person causing them.” 

I agree with you 100%😄


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't care to see these things either at this point in my life.
> 
> Is that because I'm a good man, or just because I'm turning 54? If it's because of my age, is it because 54 year olds aren't interested in general, or because I've developed some sort of special wisdom along the way?
> 
> ...


He was denied sex a lot in his first marriage, no porn. Its quite possible to masturbate without porn. People did it for centuries. I think that if you have certain values then you will keep them no matter what.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> He was denied sex a lot in his first marriage, no porn. Its quite possible to masturbate without porn. People did it for centuries. I think that if you have certain values then you will keep them no matter what.


It is quite possible to masturbate without porn. In fact, I don't really see the connection myself. After all, if you really that horny, then why would you need external stimulation. I get that side of it. 

But some (many? I don't know) men watch porn without _masturbating_. I know that doesn't change your view of porn because you have other reasons for disapproving. But it does shed a slightly different light on the question as to whether or not it actually qualifies as infidelity.


----------



## greg28 (Jun 26, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> greg28 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you f***ing serious? Unloving? Disrespectful? Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women and the ones who are angered or offended by it usually are the ones who have terrible sex lives or no partner at all. If your partner is a male then yes he enjoys watching porn. If he doesn’t, then he is lying to you. The same way he lies when he tells you how awesome your bi annual missionary sex is. Poor guy..
> ...


Honestly, it doesn’t make me feel better to think that all men look at porn. It makes me feel better when women, regardless of their age or personal situation, understand the differences that exist between male/female. Sure, your hubby may have strict boundaries regarding porn but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s wired to look at attractive females. His ability to suppress this behavior may be exceptional in your eyes but do you think he never has fantasies about someone other than you or checked out a nice a$$ at the market? Are you against masturbation also? Not a personal attack, I just don’t get how women (especially today) are still this far behind when it comes to porn and/or masturbation.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

I enjoy porn, especially pics. I enjoy porn in the same way I enjoy Renaissance art. it's pleasing to the eye. It's not cheating in our book and has never affected either of us negatively. It has no connection to sex for us. Maybe it's because it's not used with masturbation in any way. YMMV


----------



## TheCuriousWife (Jan 28, 2013)

I don't think women who don't like porn are "behind the times." They just have different opinions than you, greg28. 

I don't agree with porn but I have no problem with masturbation. As long as it is not taking away from your relationship. 

People will say what about those in a crappy or sexless marriage? Well personally I am of the viewpoint that if you need porn to feel desired/sexual/spicy/whatever you feel from it because your spouse is denying you then your marriage isn't worth much. I would split from my husband if I had an sexless marriage and needed porn to feel fulfilled. Who wants video? I want the real thing.

I can see the allure of porn. I just think it makes unrealistic exceptions of your partner and sex and can be more damaging than it is worth. Some people can use it and have it not effect their sex life, kudos for them. But it just wouldn't work for me.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I think it's healthy for anyone to ''want'' to look at porn, especially men. And if you're a couple who does this, it's not that big of a deal to me. But if you NEED it, like you can't get off without it...if you don't like being with your partner, and prefer it, then that's not healthy. Balance, in all things.


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I enjoy porn, especially pics. I enjoy porn in the same way I enjoy Renaissance art. it's pleasing to the eye. It's not cheating in our book and has never affected either of us negatively. It has no connection to sex for us. Maybe it's because it's not used with masturbation in any way. YMMV


That is interesting. I studied some Renaissance art at degree level and yes it was supposed to be pornographic. Funny to watch middle-class families wandering around art galleries trying to educate little children on fine art! :grin2:

I also think still pictures are far more erotic than hardcore porn videos. When I showed my husband about going back to the old days of being stimulated from still imagery he really began to prefer it over what you might expect on pornhub. The art of pornography has really been basterdized with boring crapola.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

What I realize after reading through this thread, is that if no one considers it cheating, why is it hidden from spouses so often? Why are men hiding this from their wives? Doing it mainly in secret? (unless it's a couple thing)

If you have nothing to hide, if it's no big deal, why hide your porn use?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

*Deidre* said:


> What I realize after reading through this thread, is that if no one considers it cheating, why is it hidden from spouses so often? Why are men hiding this from their wives? Doing it mainly in secret? (unless it's a couple thing)
> 
> If you have nothing to hide, if it's no big deal, why hide your porn use?


There's a pretty big gap between "not cheating" and "my spouse loves it when I do it and wants all the details".

It's don't ask don't tell. I will pretend not to use porn, and you will pretend to believe me. 

It's like when my wife ears oysters. I don't need to know about it, I definitely don't care to join in, and I'd just as soon pretend she didn't do it.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I do not consider pornography cheating. I have even looked at it myself. But the rude intolerance for people on this forum who DO have boundaries regarding the use of pornography is shameful. We get it, you love your porn. A person with any kind of character and basic manners is not going to be so rude to people who happen to dislike porn. Another example of the one-sided "tolerance."


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Cletus said:


> There's a pretty big gap between "not cheating" and "my spouse loves it when I do it and wants all the details".
> 
> It's don't ask don't tell. I will pretend not to use porn, and you will pretend to believe me.
> 
> ...


lol You know what I mean, Cletus!! :x


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

*Deidre* said:


> What I realize after reading through this thread, is that if no one considers it cheating, why is it hidden from spouses so often? Why are men hiding this from their wives? Doing it mainly in secret? (unless it's a couple thing)
> 
> If you have nothing to hide, if it's no big deal, why hide your porn use?


I don't hide it. My wife doesn't hide it. I think we have a mutual appreciation for beautiful/sexy people.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I don't hide it. My wife doesn't hide it. I think we have a mutual appreciation for beautiful/sexy people.


That's healthy, then. I'm glad to hear it.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'd agree that porn is cheating light, but cheating nonetheless. 

The fact that most men can't live without it, doesn't make it right. It just means our men today are weak and have little self restraint.


----------



## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

*Deidre* said:


> What I realize after reading through this thread, is that if no one considers it cheating, why is it hidden from spouses so often? Why are men hiding this from their wives? Doing it mainly in secret? (unless it's a couple thing)
> 
> If you have nothing to hide, if it's no big deal, why hide your porn use?


There are plenty of things that are perfectly normal that we hide. Do you post pictures of your dirty underwear on Facebook? 

Anything relating to sex or excretory functions carries a great deal of shame with it. It is something that we learn as small children. For a man, as a teen he learns that masturbation is something you do because you are unable to have sex with a girl. So, if you do it, that is an acknowledgment of your own failure.

I never masturbated as a teen but if I had, I would surely deny it if ever confronted. I would deny it today in my thirties. If I pass gas at work, I will make up some story about the toilet overflowing on my shoe or something, despite my understanding that passing gas is a normal bodily function. If I pass gas in front of my wife, I will blame it on the children.

I haven't brushed my teeth in years. I don't go around broadcasting it, but I'm not doing anything wrong.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

greg28 said:


> Are you f***ing serious? Unloving? Disrespectful? Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women and the ones who are angered or offended by it usually are the ones who have terrible sex lives or no partner at all. If your partner is a male then yes he enjoys watching porn. If he doesn’t, then he is lying to you. The same way he lies when he tells you how awesome your bi annual missionary sex is. Poor guy..


Although I am a man who views pornography and is married to a wife who sometimes does the same and has no problem with it.

I have no doubt there would be some men, just as there are some women who don't view pornography and they aren't lying about not looking at it either.

Likewise I also have no doubt that some people can share tremendous sex lives, while not liking pornography at all for whatever reasons that they feel are reasonable.

Plus at least according to studies on such things, women are aroused sexually via visual stimuli.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

I don't know if it is 'cheating' but I wouldn't like it as I know it does nothing to strengthen the marriage, therefore should not be on the menu so to speak.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

aine said:


> I don't know if it is 'cheating' but I wouldn't like it as I know it does nothing to strengthen the marriage, therefore should not be on the menu so to speak.


I can agree with that, I can't see it strengthening a marriage in any way.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> The fact that most men can't live without it, doesn't make it right. It just means our men today are weak and have little self restraint.


Very valid, there are many things in society that have become normal, and widespread, however that doesn't mean that they are valuable or even appropriate.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I'd agree that porn is cheating light, but cheating nonetheless.
> 
> The fact that most men can't live without it, doesn't make it right. It just means our men today are weak and have little self restraint.


What's your church's position on fiddling little boys? 

Maybe if those guys were able to watch a video once in a while, they'd be able to keep their foul hands to themselves and not traumatize innocent children.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I'd agree that porn is cheating light, but cheating nonetheless.
> 
> The fact that most men can't live without it, doesn't make it right. It just means our men today are weak and have little self restraint.


Some men being weak and having little restraint doesn't make it wrong for us that aren't weak and do have restraint. What you may find fascinating is who and what states/countries view the most porn. You have something very much in common with them. Research it. PornHub has given us the data. 

Many of your posts come across as very judgemental towards those who are different than you. I've yet to see you express a judgement of a difference that was positive. I find that especially repulsive when you your screen name represents an organization that has committed and hidden what many consider to be the worst atrocities possible against children while showing weakness and the lack of restraint you mention. If you have had problems with porn in your past, I would suggest you relay those experiences and what helped you to overcome it and not to project those failings onto others.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Fazz said:


> Very valid, there are many things in society that have become normal, and widespread, however that doesn't mean that they are valuable or even appropriate.


It also doesn't mean that they aren't invaluable or appropriate.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

greg28 said:


> Honestly, it doesn’t make me feel better to think that all men look at porn. It makes me feel better when women, regardless of their age or personal situation, understand the differences that exist between male/female. Sure, your hubby may have strict boundaries regarding porn but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s wired to look at attractive females. His ability to suppress this behavior may be exceptional in your eyes but do you think he never has fantasies about someone other than you or checked out a nice a$$ at the market? Are you against masturbation also? Not a personal attack, I just don’t get how women (especially today) are still this far behind when it comes to porn and/or masturbation.


Being that you know nothing about my husband you cant possibly say what he does and doesn't think about and look at. I do know that he closes his eyes when something comes on tv that isn't appropriate, and that he will always bounce his eyes if he sees a woman who is wearing immodest clothes for example. He has done this since a young adult, its an ingrained habit and nothing to do with me. However, I love and respect him for it and I find a man with such standards and values very appealing and attractive. 

No women today aren't 'behind when it comes to porn', some of us, and some men also, are more than aware of the harm and damage that porn does, and see the porn industry as something inheritantly bad and evil. We don't want others in our marriage or sex life, and we wouldn't be with a partner who thought porn was in anyway ok. 

I myself know of 2 marriages that ended because of porn.


----------



## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

Fazz said:


> Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.
> 
> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?
> 
> I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.


My view is that we create our own issues in our marriages and then dwell on them to cause trouble. 

I know that a lot of women masturbate after the husband has fallen asleep after sex because they need an orgasm which they do not get during sex. 
I know that a lot of men masturbate without their spouses knowing. You often hear the wife saying she "caught" him doing it as if he was doing something wrong. 
I know that a lot of people, more women than men, read romantic novels, some of which are as explicit as porn
I know that a lot of people, both men and women, watch porn 
I know that a lot of people fantasise about someone else while having sex with their spouses.

most of these issues are not discussed and one spouse may be totally oblivious to the fact. 

I do not see the difference between all of these activities and I do not relate them to cheating. They are just activities which humans or some humans do regularly. 
If i found my husband masturbating, which i have done more than a few times, i do not think it is an issue at all. i have had my fair share of it without telling him. I do not see why i should know what he does or him knowing what I do, unless I need him to help out. 

I think sometimes we control our spouses too much. Is it because sometimes we feel threatened by things they do behind our backs which have nothing to do with us in their minds? 

If he wants to watch porn, and it does not affect me directly, I do not see how it could be an issue, unless it affects his health somehow.


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

happiness27 said:


> Way to go reducing a woman "to a puddle". This was the worst possible scenario I can think of to destroy a human being. The woman needed counseling to understand how human sexuality works - not a demoralizing humiliation for being naive. Too bad lawyers don't have a code of ethics like physicians do - First, do no harm.



I respectfully disagree. In the case that was provided, the wife come across as not naïve but unbelievably controlling, unyielding, and close minded. She absolutely needed to be taken down a peg...


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Fazz said:


> I can agree with that, I can't see it strengthening a marriage in any way.


Then perhaps you've never been in a marriage with a large sexual mismatch. For those couples, a safety valve that takes the pressure off works wonders.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Then perhaps you've never been in a marriage with a large sexual mismatch. For those couples, a safety valve that takes the pressure off works wonders.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


Honestly, if I was a selfish, withholding wife, I would much rather my hubby watch Debbie Does Dallas on his laptop than find a caring, warm, willing flesh and blood woman.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Randy Lafever said:


> I haven't brushed my teeth in years.



What??? Why????



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> What??? Why????
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am not entirely certain of the real reasons underlying the behavior. You know, the psychological thing that prevents it.

What I do know is that every night before I go to bed I always think "oh, I should brush my teeth" but then another voice says "eh, you can do it tomorrow, what's one more day?" 

This has gone on for at least five years now, since shortly after my wife and I started our relationship.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Randy Lafever said:


> I am not entirely certain of the real reasons underlying the behavior. You know, the psychological thing that prevents it.
> 
> What I do know is that every night before I go to bed I always think "oh, I should brush my teeth" but then another voice says "eh, you can do it tomorrow, what's one more day?"
> 
> This has gone on for at least five years now, *since shortly after my wife and I started our relationship*.


And you still _have _a relationship? 

I really like to kiss my wife. Without a clean, fresh mouth, she'd never let me get fresh! Understandably so. 

Do you floss? Listerine? Anything? Do you have a dentist? Hell, do you still have your own teeth?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> Honestly, if I was a selfish, withholding wife, I would much rather my hubby watch Debbie Does Dallas on his laptop than find a caring, warm, willing flesh and blood woman.


I suppose if one was a selfish withholding wife, that might be my position too.

There are many other sexual mismatches in a marriage that don't make a wife selfish or withholding. Differences in style, openness to experimentation, issues with physical intimacy, legitimate mismatches in frequency of desire, and genuine mental hangups ... writing them all off under the rubric of selfish and withholding may be convenient but it's not very useful. 

If I lived in a world where my only allowed sexual outlet was the person to whom I was married, I would not have been married for 35 years. Fortunately, I do not live in that world, nor do I live in a world where most people think that a little porn on the side constitutes cheating on your spouse. 

'Cause that's, well, ridiculous. With no data to back up such an assertion, my guess would be that for every marriage destroyed by porn use, two are saved. The failure of some to imagine a way in which a marriage could be improved by it suffer from a deplorable lack of imagination.


----------



## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> And you still _have _a relationship?
> 
> I really like to kiss my wife. Without a clean, fresh mouth, she'd never let me get fresh! Understandably so.


We kiss infrequently. We usually kiss when engaging in sex, averages to about every three months or so, as the urge strikes her.

She hasn't mentioned the not brushing thing in a few years so I figure she doesn't notice anymore.



> Do you floss? Listerine? Anything? Do you have a dentist? Hell, do you still have your own teeth?


I've never flossed, I've always wondered if anybody really does that. I mean, somebody has to, they have a ton of it in the grocery store, right?

I haven't been to the dentist since I was in middle school. I have all of my teeth.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Randy Lafever said:


> We kiss infrequently. We usually kiss when engaging in sex, averages to about every three months or so, as the urge strikes her.
> 
> She hasn't mentioned the not brushing thing in a few years so I figure she doesn't notice anymore.


Not a great plan. If she has mentioned it and nothing came of it, it is more likely that she just gave up.


----------



## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Not a great plan. If she has mentioned it and nothing came of it, it is more likely that she just gave up.


"The serenity to accept things I cannot change."


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Randy Lafever said:


> "The serenity to accept things I cannot change."


If that is working for you. I mean, really, I have no idea of the teeth, brushing thing is a "problem". But many a marriage has ended when a dude thinks that because they had not heard about the woes in a while they assumed all was well.


----------



## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> If that is working for you. I mean, really, I have no idea of the teeth, brushing thing is a "problem". But many a marriage has ended when a dude thinks that because they had not heard about the woes in a while they assumed all was well.


You are implying my wife would end our marriage over something that doesn't affect her in any way? 

Realistically, she doesn't have any avenue to end our marriage. She has no income nor any ability to earn some. She can't care for the children alone, she wouldn't last two days. She has an... unhealthy.... attachment to me due to my being her only romantic partner, ever. She would fall completely to pieces on her own.

However, if she somehow figures out a way to overcome these problems, I welcome her to make the attempt. If she genuinely can improve her life (and those of the children) by ending our marriage I am not selfish enough to make any effort to stop her.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Cletus said:


> I suppose if one was a selfish withholding wife, that might be my position too.
> 
> There are many other sexual mismatches in a marriage that don't make a wife selfish or withholding. Differences in style, openness to experimentation, issues with physical intimacy, legitimate mismatches in frequency of desire, and genuine mental hangups ... writing them all off under the rubric of selfish and withholding may be convenient but it's not very useful.
> 
> ...


Cletus, I'll tell you the same thing my wife tells me, "I'm with you when you're right!" :grin2:


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Randy Lafever said:


> You are implying my wife would end our marriage over something that doesn't affect her in any way?


lol. Not at all! I was just struck by the comment that since she has not brought it up it is worth assuming it is not an issue. That Is All. Moving along. 



> Realistically, she doesn't have any avenue to end our marriage. She has no income nor any ability to earn some. She can't care for the children alone, she wouldn't last two days. She has an... unhealthy.... attachment to me due to my being her only romantic partner, ever. She would fall completely to pieces on her own.
> 
> However, if she somehow figures out a way to overcome these problems, I welcome her to make the attempt. If she genuinely can improve her life (and those of the children) by ending our marriage I am not selfish enough to make any effort to stop her.


Sorry. I don't know your backstory. I just saw a post about assumptions.


----------



## greg28 (Jun 26, 2018)

TheCuriousWife said:


> greg28 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you f***ing serious? Unloving? Disrespectful? Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women and the ones who are angered or offended by it usually are the ones who have terrible sex lives or no partner at all. If your partner is a male then yes he enjoys watching porn. If he doesn’t, then he is lying to you. The same way he lies when he tells you how awesome your bi annual missionary sex is. Poor guy..
> ...


Ok. So sexual imagery is stimulating to you AND you are offended by pornography? So at what point do you get offended? When you’re not the one viewing it? When it’s done in secrecy? Just trying to understand in what ways it offends you...I’m totally fine with whatever works for you in your personal situation but I am against this whole theory that the good guys who don’t watch porn also don’t have wandering eyes when an attractive woman is at their front door. Do you think that Billy boy just “turns off” the switch out of respect for you? I don’t buy it for a second. What is he thinking about when he masturbates or is that a no no also?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Cletus, I'll tell you the same thing my wife tells me, "I'm with you when you're right!" :grin2:


But will you still love me, tomorrow?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I suppose if one was a selfish withholding wife, that might be my position too.
> *
> There are many other sexual mismatches in a marriage that don't make a wife selfish or withholding*. Differences in style, openness to experimentation, issues with physical intimacy, legitimate mismatches in frequency of desire, and genuine mental hangups ... writing them all off under the rubric of selfish and withholding may be convenient but it's not very useful.


I would go so far that the overblown selfish and withholding dialog is a direct result of sour grapes from someone who did not get what they wanted, the reason why not being that important. They might want to look into the selfish label.


----------



## greg28 (Jun 26, 2018)

“I would feel unloved and disrespected if my husband viewed porn, and I would NOT get into a relationship with a man who thought it was fine/normal. That is my personal boundary.”

Since you mentioned jokes I cannot help hearing you say all of this in real life BUT I keep hearing it come from The Waterboys momma “Porn is the devil!”


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would go so far that the overblown selfish and withholding dialog is a direct result of sour grapes from someone who did not get what they wanted, the reason why not being that important. They might want to look into the selfish label.


In all fairness, it did take me a long time to fully come to this realization myself. I started a thread about it a while back, how accepting your spouse's limitations is one path to peace. It didn't resonate on a forum where the answer "learn to be happy not getting what you want" isn't exactly held in high regard.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Cletus said:


> But will you still love me, tomorrow?


I just half threw you under the bus in another thread so I wouldn't get my hopes up one way or another but for now, you my Boo. :toast:


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I would go so far that the overblown selfish and withholding dialog is a direct result of sour grapes from someone who did not get what they wanted, the reason why not being that important. They might want to look into the selfish label.


Or ignorant people who did not LIVE with a withholding spouse while spending years trying to be perfect might want to realize that they don't know what they are talking about. Especially when the starving spouse went to great lengths to try to discover why, to fix themselves, to fix the marriage, and just couldn't take it anymore. Sometimes the withholding spouse IS actually selfish.

But hey, if glib digs are the trend, then by all means keep lobbing them.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> In all fairness, it did take me a long time to fully come to this realization myself. I started a thread about it a while back, how accepting your spouse's limitations is one path to peace. It didn't resonate on a forum where the answer "learn to be happy not getting what you want" isn't exactly held in high regard.


I would change that to learn to be happy with getting only most of what you want, assuming sex is not the only thing to value in a marriage which I think is your case IIRC. That just seems to be life to me.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Or ignorant people who did not LIVE with a withholding spouse while spending years trying to be perfect might want to realize that they don't know what they are talking about. Especially when the starving spouse went to great lengths to try to discover why, to fix themselves, to fix the marriage, and just couldn't take it anymore. Sometimes the withholding spouse IS actually selfish.
> 
> But hey, if glib digs are the trend, then by all means keep lobbing them.


You're getting triggered a lot lately. Are you ok?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> You're getting triggered a lot lately. Are you ok?


Actually, no. I keep wondering what the deal is.

I am, wondering if part of leaving my past behind means leaving all forums behind too, which is a shame since they are interesting.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Actually, no. I keep wondering what the deal is.
> 
> I am, wondering if part of leaving my past behind means leaving all forums behind too, which is a shame since they are interesting.


No? Like, no you are not ok? I am sorry to hear that.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> No? Like, no you are not ok? I am sorry to hear that.


I am afraid I am saving up all my stress and lashing out here. That really isn't fair to the strangers who end up in its wake.

Maybe I should look at some porn to de-stress hahaha. Just kidding, although I have heard that people do that. I'd read a Nicholas Sparks novel instead but I might throw up


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

personofinterest said:


> I'd read a Nicholas Sparks novel instead but I might throw up


Nicholas Sparks' movies are what I put on when I want to watch porn with the wife.


----------



## greg28 (Jun 26, 2018)

badsanta said:


> greg28 said:
> 
> 
> > Sexual imagery is not stimulating to most women
> ...


Yes I am! Can’t keep a cucumber around this joint either!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Randy Lafever said:


> I am not entirely certain of the real reasons underlying the behavior. You know, the psychological thing that prevents it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you might kill the conspiracy theory that not brushing your teeth will make them fall out.
What about wiping your ass? Might as well just do a John Lennon and not get out of bed 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Or ignorant people who did not LIVE with a withholding spouse while spending years trying to be perfect might want to realize that they don't know what they are talking about. Especially when the starving spouse went to great lengths to try to discover why, to fix themselves, to fix the marriage, and just couldn't take it anymore. Sometimes the withholding spouse IS actually selfish.
> 
> But hey, if glib digs are the trend, then by all means keep lobbing them.


Lest any lurker reads this thread... The opposite of trying to be perfect or not getting to the reason why just isn't necessarily selfishness. That is not to say that selfishness does not exist. That does not say that YOUR ex was not selfish. I wanted to highlight that this particular sub forum is awash with an over quick assumption that the spouse who does not have the same desire is operating from a position of selfishness.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

inmyprime said:


> So you might kill the conspiracy theory that not brushing your teeth will make them fall out.
> What about wiping your ass? Might as well just do a John Lennon and not get out of bed
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



@Randy Lafever Incidentally, I have some great recommendations for electrical toothbrushes.
The great thing is that you can also shove them up the ass so you can clean two birds with one stone. (Just remember to change the heads).
New white teeth, clean ass and a well-drained prostate: it’s a win-win-win. And more importantly, your wife might start kissing you again. (Again, remember about changing heads, otherwise it might not work). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> @Randy Lafever Incidentally, I have some great recommendations for electrical toothbrushes.
> The great thing is that you can also shove them up the ass so you can clean two birds with one stone. (Just remember to change the heads).
> New white teeth, clean ass and a well-drained prostate: it’s a win-win-win. And more importantly, your wife might start kissing you again. (Again, remember about changing heads, otherwise it might not work).
> 
> ...


I think the Romans brushed their teeth with pee so you could combine kinks.


----------



## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Randy Lafever said:


> There are plenty of things that are perfectly normal that we hide. Do you post pictures of your dirty underwear on Facebook?
> 
> Anything relating to sex or excretory functions carries a great deal of shame with it. It is something that we learn as small children. For a man, as a teen he learns that masturbation is something you do because you are unable to have sex with a girl. So, if you do it, that is an acknowledgment of your own failure.
> 
> ...


You're sharing with us. 0

I get what you're saying, though.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Then perhaps you've never been in a marriage with a large sexual mismatch. For those couples, a safety valve that takes the pressure off works wonders.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


That's a fair point, it could be due to my lack of experience in such a situation.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I think the Romans brushed their teeth with pee so you could combine kinks.




I doubt it’s the only thing they did with their pee 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Nicholas Sparks' movies are what I put on when I want to watch porn with the wife.


Until Game of Thrones Season 8 comes out, I'll just have to wait...


----------



## changingmale (Aug 19, 2018)

I can understand the spouse view of it cheating as well as if looking at someone when out in public. I am guilty of both myself. If you watch porn once in awhile then maybe no but if it is everyday i would say yes. Does not matter if you played or not. If played then yes it would be cheating.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I will preface this by saying again that I do not think pornography is cheating and I am not militant about abstaining from all forms of pornography or anything. However, if someone cannot go without it or they are overly defensive about it on a regular basis, I raise my eyebrow a little bit. I don't defend anything as vehemently as some people defend porne and less it's something I need really badly. And if you need it really badly… there's a problem.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I will preface this by saying again that I do not think pornography is cheating and I am not militant about abstaining from all forms of pornography or anything. However, if someone cannot go without it or they are overly defensive about it on a regular basis, I raise my eyebrow a little bit. I don't defend anything as vehemently as some people defend porne and less it's something I need really badly. And if you need it really badly… there's a problem.


I agree. I won't defend porn but I will defend my porn use as it has never been an issue in my marriage. I do take offense when someone like Catholicdad and Diana7 seem to blanket everyone who looks at porn as having low morals and suggest that I must be cheating on my wife in some way by viewing porn.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> I agree. I won't defend porn but I will defend my porn use as it has never been an issue in my marriage. I do take offense when someone like Catholicdad and Diana7 seem to blanket everyone who looks at porn as having low morals and suggest that I must be cheating on my wife in some way by viewing porn.


I guess I can sympathize with its use, especially if a marriage is sexless. It's not exactly the same, but the only reason I ordered a "toy" in my first marriage was because I knew I'd never have ANY sexual release if I relied on hubby. And I NEEDED that (yes, I did. Don't tell me it's not a real need people!). I'd probably have climbed the walls without that little 35.00 salvation from "Covenant Spice," which by the way is a Christian sex toy company lol


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I guess I can sympathize with its use, especially if a marriage is sexless. It's not exactly the same, but the only reason I ordered a "toy" in my first marriage was because I knew I'd never have ANY sexual release if I relied on hubby. And I NEEDED that (yes, I did. Don't tell me it's not a real need people!). I'd probably have climbed the walls without that little 35.00 salvation from "Covenant Spice," which by the way is a Christian sex toy company lol


I think it depends on what you do with it. I'll browse reddit /GoneWildOver30 for a few minutes and then go cut the grass or whatever. I browse porn like you might browse stardate.org (do it!) just to see what's new. It's not connected to my sex life in any way.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

All the pro-porn people sound so intelligent and reasonable.

Bottom line though, it can't be good and morally right... Men beating off... this is what is being argued for? Really? It saves marriages... ridiculous. It saves men from a little frustration or wet dreams perhaps.

It isn't respectful of women!

It hurts children (how many millions of kids accidentally find this terrible filfth)!

Having sex (even "solo") with someone other than your spouse is cheating (despite that it is not as serious as actual sex with another).

It just plain juvenile IMO.

It is low class... The great men in history that sacrificed themselves for others probably didn't beat off (prove me wrong).

It's kind of a sad, miserable alternative to actual sex (doubt anyone would argue this).

It gives men awful ideas that often don't work in the real world.

It damages some men such that they can no longer have sex with actual women.

It encourages crazy fetishes.

Finally, if there is a God and judgement, he might just send you to hell (personally, this frightens me because I think it could be true and as you know.. I'm no saint!)

So can't we just admit that it's gross and wrong and move on??


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm not pro porn or totally against it.

But as a realist, tell me of someone that says they've never done it (mast) and that person is very very likely being dishonest.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> So can't we just admit that it's gross and wrong and move on??


Post a personal pic that I can fap to and you won't hear another peep from me (I'll be really quiet, I promise!)

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> All the pro-porn people sound so intelligent and reasonable.
> 
> Bottom line though, it can't be good and morally right... Men beating off... this is what is being argued for? Really? It saves marriages... ridiculous. It saves men from a little frustration or wet dreams perhaps.
> 
> ...


I am not worried about your judgement or God's until you guys do something about kids being raped and molested in God's house. I look at consenting adults showing their bodies. You are part of an organization that rapes and molests children....the most vulnerable of all God's children. 

I will agree with you though. The Catholics viewing child-pornography....wait...MAKING child pronography in the church are low class, gross and wrong.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Some bad priests... Guess what, porn is still wrong. The church at large stands against immorality like porn.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm not pro porn or totally against it.
> 
> But as a realist, tell me of someone that says they've never done it (mast) and that person is very very likely being dishonest.


That doesn't make it right, you understand?. Sure we've all been tainted, but we can stand against it, especially as Christ loving men.. right?


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus, so seriously porn saved your marriage. I guess this is the first credible argument for it.... Maybe you need another hobby when wife says no?


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Some bad priests... Guess what, porn is still wrong. The church at large stands against immorality like porn.


Porn is still wrong for YOU. Why are your projecting your weakness onto others? 

The church at large has apparently condoned hypocrisy because they made porn and covered it up. 67% of Christians have watched porn this year. Maybe the Church at large is the problem and not porn.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Hey PW, so you got no argument for porn so instead attack the church.

I imagine you're arguments are:

"no one tells me what to do" and "it feels good to fap and doesn't hurt anybody".

So what about women... Porn respects them?

What about the kids, how do we protect them from it?


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

PW, all you got are attacks on the church, or calling me weak I guess.

So you're strong? Do you defend kids from porn?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> Hey PW, so you got no argument for porn so instead attack the church.
> 
> I imagine you're arguments are:
> 
> ...



I don’t understand the difference between watching porn and asking and interacting with women with regards to what they think about men’s testicles in Ladies Lounge? Would God approve? Can you enlighten us mortals?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Oh great here we go with statistics, 67%of all Christians.... the classic "everyone does it" argument.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

The diff is you yank your chain and I yank my brain (no arousal on my part just curiosity).


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Also, I'm stronger than you.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

The church is good and you are bad, but can we please stop changing the subject?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> The diff is you yank your chain and I yank my brain (no arousal on my part just curiosity).



Potahto potato.....🥔 🥔 
Balls are balls. 

Also: have you tried watching porn without yanking either organs? And transfer that beautiful sexual energy into a sexy explosion with your beautiful wife? {lightbulb moment}


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Oh great here we go with statistics, 67%of all Christians.... the classic "everyone does it" argument.


I don't masturbate with porn. I do that with my wife...we call it Jack and Jill. Do you think I am the only man that doesn't use porn to fap? I have a real live women to fap to. Get you one. 

Not all Christians look at porn, just 67%

Maybe you have a masturbation problem as you keep tying it together with porn.

If you go to confession about your porn and masturbation habit, who confesses first, you or the pedo priest?


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Also, I'm stronger than you.


WTF?


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

Yes, we definately need to protect the little children from..... porn?


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

.


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

..


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

...


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

Yes, clearly Catholic zealots are the right people to tell us what's "good" and "moral", what with their 2000+ year history of torture, abuse, rape and murder. But it was all for god, so, what's a few kids?


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> WTF?


I think he meant his masturbating arm is stronger than mine. Fair point.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

In sum, no one can argue for porn outside of "it feels good" so we will attack you and your church.

PW we all believe you, you don't masturbate 😉.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> Yes, we definately need to protect the little children from..... porn?


Absolutely, you think kids should have access... Did you as a kid?


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Maybe you anti church guys should walk in one sometime.... You really think every priest is a pedophile? The priests I've known, love Christ and give their lives to shepherd their flock. Don't believe the news... I'm sure there are some bad ones but never met one and I've been around.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> and I've been around.



Freudian slurp?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> In sum, no one can argue for porn outside of "it feels good" so we will attack you and your church.
> 
> PW we all believe you, you don't masturbate 😉.


No one has argued that porn "feels good" but you. 

You enjoy talking about porn and masturbation a lot. 

I told you I DO Jack and Jill with my wife. 

Your sperm pressure may be affecting your vision. You could put on some porn and masturbate......problem solved.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKCN1L82D3?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > In sum, no one can argue for porn outside of "it feels good" so we will attack you and your church.
> ...


I had to imagine your argument because all you do is attack me, and the church.

And so you say "Jack and Jill tonight honey?".
She says "sure".
You turn on some porn and she goes to work? .. guess women nowadays don't need to be loved or respected?

My wife needs a little wooing, kissing.. Admittedly, sometimes she gives herself over without all the fanfare 😉, if she's tired, and I ask nicely 😉.

Regardless, porn is still for creeps!


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> What about the kids, how do we protect them from it?


That's a very good question CatholicDad.

Perhaps banning the Roman Catholic Church in all countries, might go a long way towards protecting some of them.


----------



## Fazz (Aug 4, 2018)

The intent of this post was to get different views, so let's stay on topic, respect the views of others and acknowledge valid points if we see them and not attack any individual or their beliefs.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Fazz said:


> The intent of this post was to get different views, so let's stay on topic, respect the views of others and acknowledge valid points if we see them and not attack any individual or their beliefs.


I've tried to get CatholicDad to change his insults to "beliefs that i feel are right for me" but he doesn't seem willing to do that.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Your sperm pressure may be affecting your vision. You could put on some porn and masturbate......problem solved.


Pfffttwaaahhahahahaha :rofl:

Don't know what this is all about but just thought this was hilarious hahahah lol


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> I had to imagine your argument because all you do is attack me, and the church.
> 
> And so you say "Jack and Jill tonight honey?".
> She says "sure".
> ...


Again, you keep tying porn to masturbation. I am not sure if you are trolling at this point or if I haven't explained myself very well. so let me try again.

Jack and Jill is another way to describe mutual masturbation. So, I say "Jack and Jill tonight honey?" She says, "Sure". We sit in front of each other and masturbate together. Porn isn't involved at all during Jack and Jill. I don't masturbate alone but I don't believe anything is wrong if you masturbate alone if you and your wife are on the same page about it. Of course, you should do what is best for you.

Women still need to be loved and respected but they determine what makes them feel loved and respected. You don't get to choose that for them.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

And that indeed makes up a lot but not all of the components in my position. 

It's only when an individual informs others saying yes I'm 18, 20, or 30yrs old, or more and "I'VE" never done it that chafes many. 

Because for a believer sin is sin, murder to thievery to lying. As men/women of course murder, rape, etc are horrible yet all things we consider from major to minor, again a sin is a sin. 

Anyone of adult age saying they never, doesn't support giving credence to those saying it may not be a positive thing to over do or even it moderation, and certainly if it replaces intimacy between spouses. Because we're observing grown men/women lying about it.

I could be wrong, sometimes I am. But realism and statistics are hard to debate at times.

Peace,


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Well, this whirlwind of anti-church posts started because I dared to lay out the reasons I thought porn was wrong.
> 
> Not one person has even tried to refute one point and have instead attacked me personally or the church (which technically I didn't even list as a reason, but only generally mentioned God).
> 
> ...




But CD, you can't claim victory before I've had a chance to play...


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Catholic dad, I am a conservative Christian who believes The Bible, and I can tell you that the anti church posts really didn't have anything to do with pornography itself. They were prompted because you were such an up noxious condescending jerk about how you choose to express your beliefs. Maybe be respectful and not an a** hat and people won't get so annoyed. Doesn't The Bible say something about being Christ like in your words and attitudes?


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And that indeed makes up a lot but not all of the components in my position.
> 
> It's only when an individual informs others saying yes I'm 18, 20, or 30yrs old, or more and "I'VE" never done it that chafes many.
> 
> ...


I think the larger problem is that CatholicDad insists that porn must be a problem for everyone when it clearly is not. NOBODY has said that it can't be a problem but to claim that it is a problem for everyone in the face of contradictory evidence is nothing more than trolling or a lack of intellectual integrity. He could claim that his religious belief calls it sin for him and those that believe like him and that would be fine. What he won't let go of is that not everyone shares his beliefs and that doesn't make them wrong, low class, disrespectful or cheaters. It only means they have different beliefs. Coming from someone representing the Catholic church and their recent headlines with raping and assaulting children, it seems especially hypocritical since some Catholics are making child porn in the church. 

For the record, when I was single, I masturbated to porn often. I haven't been single for many years and having sex 4-5x a week for 15 years has left me with zero desire to masturbate alone with or without porn. Porn, for me, is like visiting Reuters.com to see if anything interesting is happening. 

I reported his last post where he called several of us creeps. I'll let the mods decide what is proper and abide by their findings. I'm here to exchange ideas and to see different perspectives, not insult those who don't agree with my beliefs but I will defend myself from harassment and trolling.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Catholic dad, I am a conservative Christian who believes The Bible, and I can tell you that the anti church posts really didn't have anything to do with pornography itself. They were prompted because you were such an up noxious condescending jerk about how you choose to express your beliefs. Maybe be respectful and not an a** hat and people won't get so annoyed. Doesn't The Bible say something about being Christ like in your words and attitudes?


I believe he knows everything you are saying but is lashing out because porn and/or masturbation has caused him great pain and suffering. I wish he would share his testimony about the damage it caused in his life and how his faith helped him through that. That would be a great perspective to view and shine light on the positivity of the Catholic church that they are in dire need of at this time in my opinion.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Anyone of adult age saying they never, doesn't support giving credence to those saying it may not be a positive thing to over do or even it moderation, and certainly if it replaces intimacy between spouses. Because we're observing grown men/women lying about it.
> 
> I could be wrong, sometimes I am. But realism and statistics are hard to debate at times.
> 
> Peace,


Then there are those that do not like porn but accept a partner that admits to really enjoying porn during the various stages of growing up into an adult. I've often heard this easily dismissed with a saying of something like, "Oh, he will grow out of that now that he is married as there is no more need for porn!" Then when a spouse finds that this person has not changed and still watches porn they feel absolutely betrayed and accuse the spouse watching porn of being immature and disrespectful. 

Marriage 101 - You can not change your spouse into someone else.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I love porn! Especially after 8 months of celibacy... :grin2:


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> All the pro-porn people sound so intelligent and reasonable.


Thank you. 



> Bottom line though, it can't be good and morally right... Men beating off... this is what is being argued for? Really? It saves marriages... ridiculous. It saves men from a little frustration or wet dreams perhaps.


As we must remind you many times over, your morals only apply to you. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before you judge. And if that's not good enough for you, then remember that it's St. Peter's job to judge someone at the pearly gates, not Catholic Dad's. If you cannot handle porn, then don't. But do not project your weakness onto others.





> It isn't respectful of women!


You are referring to an industry that routinely pays female leads 4 to 10 times more than that of their male counterparts. In addition, it has taken steps to curtail incidents of sexual harassment long before mainstream Hollywood has.




> It hurts children (how many millions of kids accidentally find this terrible filfth)!



Responsible adults keep their videos in a locked cabinet or closet, out of the reach of children. The way other responsible adults do for guns, alcohol, cigarettes, cannabis, fireworks, or any other item that is meant for adults, rather than children.




> Having sex (even "solo") with someone other than your spouse is cheating (despite that it is not as serious as actual sex with another).


You came here looking for advice because your wife does not meet your needs as much as you'd like. Don't blame us if you don't like the reply that we give you...

And we've been over the infidelity aspect already too. There is no physical touching of anther person, no emotional dialogue taking place and no financial gifts being given. In any measurable aspect (even legally), there is no way this can be considered cheating.




> It just plain juvenile IMO.


You've remembered the "IMO" this time. Well done. 




> It is low class... The great men in history that sacrificed themselves for others probably didn't beat off (prove me wrong).


Benjamin Franklin. While technically he lived before the invention of video, he had some rather colorful extracurricular activities...




> It's kind of a sad, miserable alternative to actual sex (doubt anyone would argue this).



You are forgetting that your morals only apply to you again. Besides, you are only half correct. Here's the actual mathematical formula you are referring to:

Actual sex with your spouse > Porn > Nothing at all




> It gives men awful ideas that often don't work in the real world.



You are forgetting that your morals only apply to you again. Don't blame others if you lack imagination.




> It damages some men such that they can no longer have sex with actual women.



Oh yes, ban something for everyone just because a few can't handle it. That type of argument would have been best made in Soviet Russia or medieval Spain, circa mid 15th century. It doesn't quite hold so much weight in Western democratic republics in which the populations value personal freedom of choice.




> It encourages crazy fetishes.



OMG! I know, right?! There's this thing called "edging"! It's awesome! You should totally try it...! >





> Finally, if there is a God and judgement, he might just send you to hell (personally, this frightens me because I think it could be true and as you know.. I'm no saint!)



The council of Nicaea met in 325 AD to essentially consolidate all of the different sects of those who followed the teachings of Jesus into one organized religion with an established cannon and doctrine. This was overseen by the Eastern Roman emperor, who found favor with the bishops of Rome, Byzantium, Carthage, and Alexandria because their church hierarchies and practices mirrored Roman civic government in many ways. This led to the inclusion of mainly conservative texts into what would be called "The New Testament" and excluded the teachings, stories, and practices of other valid practicing groups of Christianity such as the Coptic and Gnostic sects. The church's ultra conservative start only got further pushed into Roman control as Islam captured Alexandria and Carthage and the schism with the east left the Eastern Church in the hands of the emperor. 

So basically, for 1500 years, the Catholic/Christian religion has been dominated by men who are not allowed to marry, men who are not allowed to have sex, men who have burned woman alive at the stake for practicing herbal remedies during times of plague, men who have allowed their followers to use rape as a war tactic, men who have used their followers' monetary offerings to pay off the crimes of other men committed in their hierarchy, and men who have downplayed the roles of the women that help founded the religion itself. With all due respect, these are not the people I intend to allow to dictate to me what my morals should be regarding the imagery of women.




> So can't we just admit that it's gross and wrong and move on??



*Sigh* You are forgetting that your morals only apply to you again...


----------



## Txquail (Feb 21, 2018)

In my opinion. 

Porn can be very helpful in a marriage. I dont sit there and watch it without my wife. Believe it or not she likes watching it for the same reasons as me. Sure you get to see some buffed people naked and it gets both of you in the mood. But beyond that it gives you ideas and moves to try on each other. We dont watch it everynight but probably once every 2-3 months. Its really spiced up our sex life.

At the end of the day its ultimately between you and your spouse. If you are BOTH good with it then enjoy it. If one of you is against it, tell your partner why and hear why he or she thinks its ok. 

Yes I know porn can be abused. So can drinking, drugs, etc... Its all on how you handle it.


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Maybe you anti church guys should walk in one sometime.... You really think every priest is a pedophile? The priests I've known, love Christ and give their lives to shepherd their flock. Don't believe the news... I'm sure there are some bad ones but never met one and I've been around.



That's the whole point, right? Do you feel like you are on the defensive because people attack something that you support with broad generalizations? Out of the billions of church followers and out of the hundreds of thousands of members of church leadership, only an absolute vast minority are pedophiles. Only an absolute vast minority of priests have this problem. There's no question about that. But (forgetting for a moment of the complete hypocrisy of condemning broad generalizations against you while you engage in them yourself) the issue that you gloss over all the time is that church money made through follower donations has gone towards paying off accusers and authorities in order to keep those priests from facing criminal prosecution. This action of keeping those few guilty parties from facing real justice would not be possible on the scale it's done if it weren't sanctioned by the Vatican. This is why people feel free to lash out at the church as a whole and why they feel that church leadership AS A WHOLE has responded to the issue of pedophilia in the church very poorly...


----------



## hinterdir (Apr 17, 2018)

Fazz said:


> Hi all, I'm curious to find out what the different views on pornography are in the context of marriage or a serious relationship. I've come across different views and one person shared with me that if their partner was to watch pornography, she would consider it a form of cheating.
> 
> Do you consider watching pornography as a form of cheating on one's partner?
> 
> I have my views about the detrimental impacts that pornography can have on relationships and society as a whole (my personal view and don't judge others for not sharing it), however, I don't see it as cheating per say.


This sort of brings in semantics. No. I don't technically consider it "CHEATING" since you never have any contact with another human being at all, you never talk to anyone, text anyone, telephone anyone, you definitely never touch nor are physically intimate with anyone else so no. I wouldn't use that word....cheating. However, I'd say it isn't healthy and if your spouse has an issue with it you definitely shouldn't do it out of honor and love for her (if she says it hurts her when you lust after other women's images).


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

Originally Posted by CatholicDad -

"In sum, porn is for creeps like Piggly wiggly, Personal, Cletus, & Maxwedge."

For the record, nowhere in this thread did I advocate for porn. Although I don't mind being lumped in with those other creeps.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> That doesn't make it right, you understand?. Sure we've all been tainted, but we can stand against it, especially as Christ loving men.. right?


Well, I can certainly stand against hypocritical moral absolutism.

I can always stand against any stand that has nothing behind it other than the teachings of a morally corrupt hierarchy. 

While we're at it, why don't we go ahead and throw in a stand against ignorance and anecdote based "analysis."


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Maybe you anti church guys should walk in one sometime.... You really think every priest is a pedophile? The priests I've known, love Christ and give their lives to shepherd their flock. Don't believe the news... I'm sure there are some bad ones but never met one and I've been around.


Another BS dismissive, absolutist post. 

What makes you think any of the people you look down your nose at from your high horse haven't walked into a church? Or attend frequently? Or were raised in the church? I suspect there are a few of us who could quote more chapter and verse... including the meaning and relevance of... line by line with, or even far better than you.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> Originally Posted by CatholicDad -
> 
> "In sum, porn is for creeps like Piggly wiggly, Personal, Cletus, & Maxwedge."
> 
> For the record, nowhere in this thread did I advocate for porn. Although I don't mind being lumped in with those other creeps.


Wow. If I were those posters, I would report him for a personal attack.

This guy is nothing like Jesus. Please don't judge us all by him.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Another BS dismissive, absolutist post.
> 
> What makes you think any of the people you look down your nose at from your high horse haven't walked into a church? Or attend frequently? Or were raised in the church? I suspect there are a few of us who could quote more chapter and verse... including the meaning and relevance of... line by line with, or even far better than you.


Not to mention it might have been a church full of legalistic jerks with no tact who turned people against the church to begin with.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Remember, Jesus sat down with tax collectors and prostitutes to kindly share His teachings, and about forgiveness, and getting along with others. 

Just sayin'.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Not to mention it might have been a church full of legalistic jerks with no tact who turned people against the church to begin with.


Like someone we know on this thread....


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> Originally Posted by CatholicDad -
> 
> "In sum, porn is for creeps like Piggly wiggly, Personal, Cletus, & Maxwedge."
> 
> For the record, nowhere in this thread did I advocate for porn. Although I don't mind being lumped in with those other creeps.



I feel left out, dammit. Can I be a creep too?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Here ya go prime

https://youtu.be/XFkzRNyygfk


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

I always find these threads funny. The fact is it is all what the couple thinks. My wife and I both watch porn, usually together sometimes on our own. That works for us. Every couple has different boundaries. Some people think having opposite sex friends is always wrong, some think having lunch with an opposite sex coworker is always wrong, some people have open relationships, people live they way that works best for them. 

Porn is like any vice, some people can't handle it and get too obsessed or addicted. Some people can't have a drink without going crazy and getting blackout drunk, that person should obviously steer clear of booze. If porn is interfering in a relationship because it becomes obsessive or a crutch then it should be avoided. 

For us creeps you'll take porn away from our cold dead hand.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Please don't judge us all by him.


Not all religious people whatever their faith are terrible people, yet some are. Which also applies to atheists as well, of whom not all are terrible people yet some are. Plus what may be valued by one will grate to another, we all have our foibles and all have our good points.

Although I am an atheist, I spend time with people of one faith or another. Almost all of my in-laws are Italian Catholics (of which most live in Italy), yet they do not carry on like CatholicDad. Likewise many of my relatives are Protestants of various denominations, plus one of my ancestors had a Christian church built in Australia, while others helped establish a Christian denomination n Australia.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

So you all love porn and that's fine. I accept that you all truly love it.

And most of you love masturbating too.

And you all hate me for daring to speak (unkindly) against it. You seem to think I should be here speaking softly like Jesus, except Im just an ordinary man.

But I'm entitled to my opinion too. All of you porn watchers ARE creeps! You're just so in love with your little pleasures to admit it.

Maybe I'm on my high horse... but with all my weaknesses at least one thing I can say for sure... I save all of sexual thoughts and energy for my wife, which I do believe is what God intended. It seems like common sense that men shouldn't be entertaining fantasy and hiding in dark rooms and pleasuring themselves. This is ultimately what the creeps so vehemently defend! Oh, but don't dare push my morality on another! 

I claim victory... Still no credible arguments (sorry Edo, nice try).


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

It brings a tear to my eye when the TAM community get to the nitty gritty of a philisophical debate without anyone over-reacting.


----------



## Randy Lafever (Jul 8, 2018)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Jack and Jill is another way to describe mutual masturbation. So, I say "Jack and Jill tonight honey?" She says, "Sure". We sit in front of each other and masturbate together.


Not to be nosy, but what are the benefits for doing this instead of just going ahead and having sex? I mean, if you are both aroused and right next to each other, it would seem only natural to go for the real thing, as opposed to a simulation.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I believe PW was pointing out that he doesn't masturbate to porn but instead only does so when his wife watches in this J & J exchange. I didn't understand at first either and didn't really mean to criticize it (thought originally it was a porn thing).

He watches porn but isn't a "full creep" like most other porn watchers that masturbate.

I'm sure he can elaborate and perhaps take a couple more church jabs while at it.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Personal said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Please don't judge us all by him.
> ...


Why don't you tell your brother in law that his priest is a pedophile and see if he doesn't "carry on" like I do.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Remember, Jesus sat down with tax collectors and prostitutes to kindly share His teachings, and about forgiveness, and getting along with others.
> 
> Just sayin'.


He also threw the money changers out of the temple.

I doubt he would be cool with porn, given his statement about looking on another with lust... adultery.

Most TAMers believe it is up to the couple to define what adultery is... Jesus wouldn't agree. Surely we can agree that Jesus condemned porn with that statement?


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> I always find these threads funny. The fact is it is all what the couple thinks. My wife and I both watch porn, usually together sometimes on our own. That works for us. Every couple has different boundaries. Some people think having opposite sex friends is always wrong, some think having lunch with an opposite sex coworker is always wrong, some people have open relationships, people live they way that works best for them.
> 
> Porn is like any vice, some people can't handle it and get too obsessed or addicted. Some people can't have a drink without going crazy and getting blackout drunk, that person should obviously steer clear of booze. If porn is interfering in a relationship because it becomes obsessive or a crutch then it should be avoided.
> 
> For us creeps you'll take porn away from our cold dead hand.


Thanks for admitting at least that porn is a vice. I decree you lesser creep.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > That doesn't make it right, you understand?. Sure we've all been tainted, but we can stand against it, especially as Christ loving men.. right?
> ...


Your obviously an intellectual but I'd respect you more if you just admitted that you use porn and love it. It seems you'd rather hide behind your intellectualism.


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> Maxwedge 413 said:
> 
> 
> > Originally Posted by CatholicDad -
> ...


PW called my priest a pedofile and you're upset I called him a creep?


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Edo Edo said:


> CatholicDad said:
> 
> 
> > All the pro-porn people sound so intelligent and reasonable.
> ...


There's so much wrong with your post I don't know where to start. Priests and religious take a vow of celibacy... they aren't "forced to never have sex". 

Ben Franklin was a creep.

If there is a God (I think there is) than morals are absolute they aren't "yours and mine".


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Edo Edo, I want to point out other errors:

1. God judges, not St. Peter.
2. Children now carry internet capable phones and use computers in elementary school. It's much more complicated, protecting kids from internet porn than just "locking up videos".
3. Good actor salary doesn't mean the film's foster respectful behaviors and attitudes towards women. 
4. Young men are being damaged... Guess it's acceptable to you so you can have your jack off sessions. I'm not sure I abdicate making it illegal, but harder to get to would be nice. Education for young men is necessary. Does it seem healthy to you that 17 year old boys may have watched hard core porn daily for 5 years? This is happening.


----------



## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Randy Lafever said:


> Not to be nosy, but what are the benefits for doing this instead of just going ahead and having sex? I mean, if you are both aroused and right next to each other, it would seem only natural to go for the real thing, as opposed to a simulation.


Sometimes, one or both of us are tired and not wanting to put in the time and/or effort for regular sex. It's quick, facing each other on the bed with legs interlocking makes it feel pretty intimate and the view is outstanding. Also, it's a different wrinkle to throw in the mix every once in awhile.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Your obviously an intellectual but I'd respect you more if you just admitted that you use porn and love it. It seems you'd rather hide behind your intellectualism.


You have made false assumptions. Whether or not I personally use porn or love it is irrelevant. Have you not seen all the posts by folks who aren't into porn but don't feel the need to levy their own morals or personal aesthetic on everyone else? Are they all lying?


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

The Jesus spoken of in my Lutheran church is a loving, teaching man that wanted to right the wrongs in the way the Hebrews were practicing at the time, and help people to live, love and learn God's light. The Jesus that CD and many other zealotous hard-line catholics speak of, is a judgmental, condemning jerk. No thanks. Do unto others, turn the other cheek, help your neighbors, try to understand the other side -- all good and Christian ways of conduct. Telling everyone that they are sinners and will burn? Jesus is shaking his head. 

Sorry the thread got so derailed OP, but whenever anyone starts a talk about masturbation or pornography there are a few catholic creeps that creep out of the woodwork like roaches and ruin the conversation. Sinner Sinner, Adultery Adultery. CD, whatever is wrong within you and/or your ability to have relationships with others, please stop pushing others down into the fire as you desperately scramble to climb up out of it.


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

From the Fertility Center of California's website-

https://www.spermbankcalifornia.com/male-masturbation.html

*8 Benefits of Male Masturbation*
Male Masturbation Provides Many Health Benefits
There are many positive benefits of male masturbation such as reducing stress, helping infertile couples have a child through sperm donation and stimulating the immune system. Learn more about the 8 benefits of male masturbation:

1)Masturbation benefits your immune system (Human Reproduction, Vol 12, 2200-2207, Copyright 1997 by Oxford University Press)

2)Keeps you in good health. Recent research study suggests masturbation may decrease incidence of prostate cancer. (Leitzmann MF, Platz EA, Stampfer MJ, Willett WC, Giovannucci E. Ejaculation frequency and subsequent risk of prostate cancer. JAMA. 2004 Apr 7:291 (13): 1578-86.)

3)Release tension and stress. Masturbation can lower blood pressure in stressful situations. One out of five Americans has an anger management problem. There haven’t been any studies on this particular argument, but nobody disputes the relaxing affect of masturbation.

4)Masturbation releases sexual tension without any performance anxiety. There is also no need for a condom and embarrassing drug store checkouts.

5)It fights depression. Masturbation releases the mood –enhancing substances serotonin and dopamine. No more need for Prozac! (F.C. Denison, V.E. Grant, A.A. Calder, and R. W. Kelly Seminal plasma components stimulate interleukin-8 and interleukin-10 release. Mol Hum. Reprod., March 1, 1999; 5(3): 220-226)

6)Earn some extra income with it! Make money as a sperm donor at a local sperm bank. Donate sperm and see how much you could make.

7)Give the gift of life. Sperm donation can help couples struggling with infertility start a family with your help. See how happy you can make other families.

8)The ultimate practice of safe sex! No chance of sexually transmitted diseases or pregnancy. There won’t be any next morning calls or child support requests.


Men are very visual creatures, so pictures or videos are the easiest ways to achieve completion if performing alone. If that's what you want to do. @Fazz to answer your question directly -- I personally do not consider watching pornography, or the masturbation that goes with it, to be cheating. But none of the partners or wives I have had did either, so it never needed much debate for me. 

CD feels that masturbation itself is a sin, and I believe that is why this thread has gone off the rails. But I personally do not. It feels good and doesn't hurt anyone. Animals do it. Kids do it. Old ladies do it. Political and religious leaders do it. It does not, in the physical act itself, relect poorly on your moral or ethical being. If done in relative privacy and safety.

But, if your partner is hurt or offended by it, then it certainly could be seen as "cheating" on them, as you are putting your sexual energy into something other than them. I believe this is CD's point. That to perform that act is to deny your partner of your physical love. But what if you have the energy and high drive so much that you would need lovemaking multiple times daily, to the point of her telling you to leave her alone for a while? Now she's denying you what your religion may tell you she owes you, since she is your property according to God. But I digress. 

I don't think it's cheating, but it's up to you and your partner to decide for yourselves. If she's upset and it's affecting your relationship then you need to adjust your behavior or get a new partner that feels as you do.


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> There's so much wrong with your post I don't know where to start. Priests and religious take a vow of celibacy... they aren't "forced to never have sex".


If you have to take a vow of celibacy in order to become a priest, than you are can't have sex, right? Same thing. Well, except for all those times that "only God is watching..."




> Ben Franklin was a creep.


One man's creep is another man's hero. 



> If there is a God (I think there is) than morals are absolute they aren't "yours and mine".



God created you and God created me. We do not agree on this topic, thus no morals are "absolute".


----------



## Edo Edo (Feb 21, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Edo Edo, I want to point out other errors:
> 
> 1. God judges, not St. Peter.


I stand corrected. God judges and St Peter just holds the keys to the gate. Gotcha.
Question for you: What's the point in giving Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, if God does all the judging?





> 2. Children now carry internet capable phones and use computers in elementary school. It's much more complicated, protecting kids from internet porn than just "locking up videos".


Uh-huh. You can passcode TVs and phones to block adult content. And when I rode the school bus 35 years ago, kids would occasionally smuggle a playboy mag on the bus and show their friends. But no, you can't police their friends. Guess what? That's called life and part of the job as a parent is to be mindful of things your kids may see, put them in proper context, advocate for or against, explain why, and reinforce. It's a part of preparing your kids to live a multi-faceted society and teaching them how to handle things they may or may not agree with. Sounds a lot more thorough than the "abstinence-only" technique...




> 3. Good actor salary doesn't mean the film's foster respectful behaviors and attitudes towards women.


Disagree completely. Just as with ANY industry, money flows to whom/what is most valued in that industry. In addition, if the nature of the content causes a consumer to think less of women, then it is the fault and weakness of the consumer, not the item which that person is viewing. I watch porn nearly every day and respect the equality, value, and uniqueness of women. The manner in which you describe respect seems more like how you'd respect a possession rather than another person. Think about it...





> 4. Young men are being damaged... Guess it's acceptable to you so you can have your jack off sessions. I'm not sure I abdicate making it illegal, but harder to get to would be nice. Education for young men is necessary. Does it seem healthy to you that 17 year old boys may have watched hard core porn daily for 5 years? This is happening.



We've been over this too. Things are not immoral. Only how people use them can be. Taking something away from everyone because just because a few can't handle it is not what we do in a society that values freedom and personal choice. 

And yes, let's not forget the children! The poor little lambs who's eyes will melt and who's palms will grow hairy, if we don't clamp down on dreaded pornography. No one on this site is advocating that children should use porn. Don't insult us all by trying to appeal to the base instinctual fears of children being harmed just because something becomes legal for adult use. It's the same tired crap we hear from fear-mongerers any time any form of change gets mentioned (gay rights, cannabis, guns, fire works, etc.)


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> There's so much wrong with your post I don't know where to start. Priests and religious take a vow of celibacy... they aren't "forced to never have sex".
> 
> Ben Franklin was a creep.
> 
> If there is a God (I think there is) than morals are absolute they aren't "yours and mine".


Well that requires belief not ok not that God exists, but also that he is also a moral absolutist. 

I understand you believe that as well, and there is certainly a lot in the bible to support that. Like the part about needing to gouge out your own eye if it leads you to lust.


Oh, wait... before becoming TAMs resident anti-porn crusader, you used to be a big porn consumer. Forgive me if I'm jumping to to conclusions here, but I assume you've still got both your eyeballs intact in your noggin?


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> From the Fertility Center of California's website-
> 
> https://www.spermbankcalifornia.com/male-masturbation.html
> 
> ...


Can she at least watch? 😉


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> So you all love porn and that's fine. I accept that you all truly love it.
> 
> And most of you love masturbating too.
> 
> ...


Haughty eyes, a proud heart

The Bible talk about those too....he hates them.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> He also threw the money changers out of the temple.
> 
> I doubt he would be cool with porn, given his statement about looking on another with lust... adultery.
> 
> Most TAMers believe it is up to the couple to define what adultery is... Jesus wouldn't agree. Surely we can agree that Jesus condemned porn with that statement?


I'm pretty sure if trying to sway or influence others that name calling to get someone to listen you isn't the way to go though. 
A little facetious here, a little true. 

Peace,


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

When Jesus threw the money-changers out of the temple, he was angry with the church of the day and their hypocrisy. He NEVER ever treated unbelievers that way.

People who are not Christians are not trying to follow the Bible. Just like since I am not Muslim I am not trying to follow the Koran. So I always chuckle when a Christian is all bent out of shape and appalled that a person who isn't a Christian doesn't feel compelled to ACT like a Christian.

I am WAY more appalled when someone who says they ARE a Christian doesn't know how to act like it.


----------



## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

POI, so _clearly_ you are saying that you *Love* porno, and think it should be shown in elementary schools. You creep!


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> The Jesus spoken of in my Lutheran church is a loving, teaching man that wanted to right the wrongs in the way the Hebrews were practicing at the time, and help people to live, love and learn God's light. The Jesus that CD and many other zealotous hard-line catholics speak of, is a judgmental, condemning jerk. No thanks. Do unto others, turn the other cheek, help your neighbors, try to understand the other side -- all good and Christian ways of conduct. Telling everyone that they are sinners and will burn? Jesus is shaking his head.
> 
> Sorry the thread got so derailed OP, but whenever anyone starts a talk about masturbation or pornography there are a few catholic creeps that creep out of the woodwork like roaches and ruin the conversation. Sinner Sinner, Adultery Adultery. CD, whatever is wrong within you and/or your ability to have relationships with others, please stop pushing others down into the fire as you desperately scramble to climb up out of it.


Jesus is also pretty clear on sexual boundaries.


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Jesus is also pretty clear on sexual boundaries.


I love the fact that he never mentioned homosexuality - hurray!!! :grin2:


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> POI, so _clearly_ you are saying that you *Love* porno, and think it should be shown in elementary schools. You creep!


I know you are kidding, but in case a handful of posters operate from a position of ignorance, I don't like porn. It was an issue in my first marriage (not just straight porn either). I do, however, know it is out there. I also know that people who are starving due to sexlessness resort to it only AFTER their spouse has violated I Cor 7 by withholding.

And finally, since I try not to represent Jesus by being an arrogant jackass, I am not going to call people (especially people who do not even ascribe to my faith) names in order to make a point.

I will say this: Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. So the fact that He didn't mention every sin the Old Testament did DOESN'T mean He stamped everything with "OK." Just like Solomon having 700 concubines didn't mean God approved. It is important to actually UNDERSTAND the Bible before using it to okay things, especially sin. But again, no one needs to be ugly over disagreements, especially if they claim to follow Christ.


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I am WAY more appalled when someone who says they ARE a Christian doesn't know how to act like it.


Oh my. I agree. But those _types_ of Christian tend to NEVER be wrong, never, not no way, not going to happen. Christians that I know and respect talk to me as though I have an opinion and have a wonderful gift of empathy that Christ taught.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

peacem said:


> I love the fact that he never mentioned homosexuality - hurray!!! :grin2:


He is Gods Son and God talks about it many times. Jesus also says what marriage was always meant to be, a man and a woman committed to each other.


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> He is Gods Son and God talks about it many times. Jesus also says what marriage was always meant to be, a man and a woman committed to each other.


Oh go on and give me reference and get writing to your bishops.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

peacem said:


> I love the fact that he never mentioned homosexuality - hurray!!! :grin2:




Is that good or a bad? 🤨 I can’t work it out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Is that good or a bad? &#55358;&#56616; I can’t work it out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He was the perfect politician. Dodging the subject without putting off the minorities :grin2: i.e FFS you have a brain work it out for yourselves!! (NIV version)


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> He is Gods Son and God talks about it many times. Jesus also says what marriage was always meant to be, a man and a woman committed to each other.


You do know that same sex marriage wasn't around 2000 years ago? Just checking before you get back to me?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

peacem said:


> I love the fact that he never mentioned homosexuality - hurray!!! :grin2:




In the beginning, there was Adam and Steve....
Sorry wrong book! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> In the beginning, there was Adam and Steve....
> Sorry wrong book!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lol. That sounds fabulous. x Some of those disciples were very close...lots of hugging just saying


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

peacem said:


> You do know that same sex marriage wasn't around 2000 years ago? Just checking before you get back to me?


Of course, because to was never God's intention or desire for marriage.


----------



## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

peacem said:


> Oh go on and give me reference and get writing to your bishops.


I have no bishops. If you want the references look it up, there are countless references to marriage and every single one of them is male and female.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> In the beginning, there was Adam and Steve....
> Sorry wrong book!


In the beginning there was Alma and Eve...

Sorry, another wrong book!


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I have no bishops. If you want the references look it up, there are countless references to marriage and every single one of them is male and female.



Ah, but ‘Male’ and ‘female’ is a social construct.
Dammit, my autocorrect is so bloody sexist: always spells ‘Male’ with a capital but not ‘female’.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Btw why did they make some animals gay? I mean I get it with people, just to mess around etc, but why animals?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> (not just straight porn either).



Crap, really? That explains the no sex part. Sorry it happened to you 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > (not just straight porn either).
> ...


Well, life happens. I got two awesome kids out of the deal 🙂


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Btw why did they make some animals gay? I mean I get it with people, just to mess around etc, but why animals?


 @inmyprime someone like @Diana7 will read this comment and think, "this guy is comparing mankind to wild animals with no soul as a way to somehow try and validate his own heathenistic beliefs and thoughts... he will never see the irony in his own statement!"

Generally speaking @inmyprime people (religious and nonreligious) like to try and believe that we are far superior beings than animals. For those that watch a lot of porn it probably is easy to get confused on this topic. 

Now when you take a NASA scientist named Margaret Howe Lovatt studying the speech potential of dolphins that have larger brains than us humans... well Hustler did an article on that, so I guess that study now qualifies as porn in the eyes of history... I kinda lost my train of thought as to the point I was trying to make... oh well! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Horses have bigger xxx too....but I lost my train of thought. (Humor)


----------



## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Well thanks Edo and Maxwedge for trying to answer. I'm sorry I offended everyone by calling porn users creeps. I won't name call again! I hope the thinkers will at least ponder the idea that perhaps porn is damaging to men and marriage.

I will continue to ponder and pray that the good God will give me wisdom and patience, Which I know I lack.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

CatholicDad said:


> I will continue to ponder and pray that the good God will give me wisdom and patience



And cable 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MZMEE (Apr 17, 2018)

Well porn can be detrimental depending on the level it is engaged in. Personally I don't think it should be a part of marriage. But I know couples who use it to bring "spice" to the marriage. Some use it to get stimulated before sex. Others use it to bring new ideas. The husband and wife are all in agreement.

Where it goes bad is when either party is soooooooooooo engaged with porn that real sex has no more fulfillment. The images on the TV/computer are more exciting so the expectation in bed is always a let down because most couples can't perform what is done in porn. Also, you can climax to porn so much that by time you get to your spouse you have emptied out. All your desires come and go with the porn. You trained your brain that is more exciting. Not good!

I once spoke to a man who owned a Adult Shop. he said he does seminars all the time for men who are "addicted" to porn and can't figure out why they can't get the same satisfaction with their spouse. Well he said the same thing...they are basically giving the best of themselves to the porn and by time they get to their wife...there is nothing left so getting an erection or getting satisfaction is null. Stop the porn and the feelings come back.

So it's not necessarily cheating but yet it is because if you actually sleep with someone else you are doing the same thing...giving the best of you to someone else and leaving the scraps for your spouse.

So that's my two cents.


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Btw why did they make some animals gay? I mean I get it with people, just to mess around etc, but why animals?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Are there any homosexual animals in nature, besides us? I mean, i know there are animals that display homosexual behavior, but have any of them actually been documented to completely exclude the opposite sex?


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MZMEE said:


> Well porn can be detrimental depending on the level it is engaged in. Personally I don't think it should be a part of marriage. But I know couples who use it to bring "spice" to the marriage. Some use it to get stimulated before sex. Others use it to bring new ideas. The husband and wife are all in agreement.
> 
> Where it goes bad is when either party is soooooooooooo engaged with porn that real sex has no more fulfillment. The images on the TV/computer are more exciting so the expectation in bed is always a let down because most couples can't perform what is done in porn. Also, you can climax to porn so much that by time you get to your spouse you have emptied out. All your desires come and go with the porn. You trained your brain that is more exciting. Not good!
> 
> ...


Isn't that kinda' like Walter White and Jesse Pinkman running a meth rehab?


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Are there any homosexual animals in nature, besides us? I mean, i know there are animals that display homosexual behavior, but have any of them actually been documented to completely exclude the opposite sex?



Sorry you lost me 🤨 What’s the difference?
If you blow 100 guys and have sex with one womanz: does it make you a bit gay or a bit straight? Or a little bi?

I don’t actually know any gay guys who never had sex with a womanz (usually early on in their career as a homosexual).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> Are there any homosexual animals in nature, besides us? I mean, i know there are animals that display homosexual behavior, but have any of them actually been documented to completely exclude the opposite sex?



On a related note, I have a cat that barks like a dog. What’s up with that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Sorry you lost me 🤨 What’s the difference?
> If you blow 100 guys and have sex with one womanz: does it make you a bit gay or a bit straight? Or a little bi?
> 
> I don’t actually know any gay guys who never had sex with a womanz (usually early on in their career as a homosexual).
> ...


What I'm talking about is the homosexual behavior in animals, where they still seek out the opposite sex to procreate. In people, there are a lot of monogamous homosexual couples who never do this. 

I was just curious if it had ever been documented in nature.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> What I'm talking about is the homosexual behavior in animals, where they still seek out the opposite sex to procreate. In people, there are a lot of monogamous homosexual couples who never do this.
> 
> 
> 
> I was just curious if it had ever been documented in nature.



You mean like two gay baboons marching for equal rights and benefits and adopting baby baboons?

I think things are little more simplistic in the animal kingdom. There are many Male monkeys that **** other male monkeys, I don’t know if that qualifies as ‘seeking out sex to procreate’. It sounds like just a bit of old fashioned, gay monkey sex. If they didn’t feel a little gay-ish, why would they bother?

Same with sex with their brothers or sisters etc. Some monkeys will **** his sister, some won’t. Sometimes same monkey will simultaneously **** his sister AND his brother. 
Same with people. I dunno. It makes sense to me. Though I don’t recommend it personally (the sibling thing; mainly because of illnesses & disfigurement for offspring etc). But it’s a different topic. I hope that makes sense? 🤨


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MZMEE said:


> I once spoke to a man who owned a Adult Shop. he said he does seminars all the time for men who are "addicted" to porn and can't figure out why they can't get the same satisfaction with their spouse. Well he said the same thing...they are basically giving the best of themselves to the porn and by time they get to their wife...there is nothing left so getting an erection or getting satisfaction is null. Stop the porn and the feelings come back.
> 
> So it's not necessarily cheating but yet it is because if you actually sleep with someone else you are doing the same thing...giving the best of you to someone else and leaving the scraps for your spouse.
> 
> So that's my two cents.


Yes & no... I agree with you, but there is also yet another layer of dynamics to it. 

In my opinion porn can make the brain lazy as it does most of the work by providing mental stimulation. Then guys watch so much porn that they can no longer masturbate without it. This is because their mind has been trained to just follow along with the fantasy and eroticism of porn as opposed to creating that eroticism and arousal on their own. 

Stop the porn and eventually the mind becomes active again and starts to become erotically curious and motivated with sexual thoughts. 

Meanwhile women tend to read romance novels which can do the same thing. They are dependent on a steamy story line combined with not knowing what happens next for sexual stimulation and arousal of the mind. The best storyline that a husband can create in real life is just not being too tired at the end of the day from work which is not going to be exciting compared to forbidden vampire love. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> Y
> 
> Meanwhile women tend to read romance novels which can do the same thing. They are dependent on a steamy story line combined with not knowing what happens next for sexual stimulation and arousal of the mind. The best storyline that a husband can create in real life is just not being too tired at the end of the day from work which is not going to be exciting compared to forbidden vampire love.
> 
> ...


Sat across from a woman on the train who was old enough to be my mother reading "A summer fling". Not once did she look aroused, perhaps a little bored and passing the time. 

I don't know where the comparison of romance books and porn comes from...I haven't read one since the age of 12, so I may be speaking out of turn, but they are really, really lame when it comes to getting horny. I get more horny from people here on TAM finger wagging and pearl clutching, it kind of makes the whole thing more forbidden and exciting. Normalising porn makes it...well...normal and quite boring.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I will confess that sometimes steamy romance novels make me laugh. I mean really, does anyone in real life actually used the phrase throbbing member??? And how many times can we recycle the man and woman who hated each other until that 1 night the argument turns into passionate kissing and then they end up together.


----------



## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I will confess that sometimes steamy romance novels make me laugh. I mean really, does anyone in real life actually used the phrase throbbing member??? And how many times can we recycle the man and woman who hated each other until that 1 night the argument turns into passionate kissing and then they end up together.


The problem is we need to SEE the throbbing member because us women are very special and are visual creatures. But don't tell anyone...as men seem to think we are sexually satisfied from romance books. x


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

peacem said:


> Not once did she look aroused,



How do you know? Did you...’check’ her?

When the shades of grey book came out, they had to change the upholstery on my tube line, for all the trains.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I will confess that sometimes steamy romance novels make me laugh. I mean really, does anyone in real life actually used the phrase throbbing member??? And how many times can we recycle the man and woman who hated each other until that 1 night the argument turns into passionate kissing and then they end up together.



Does he even once asked for affirmative consent? (Sorry, but I just HAD to ask). 

There seems to be something inherently unhealthy about a body part having to throb. But whatever. I didn’t design me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I will confess that sometimes steamy romance novels make me laugh. I mean really, does anyone in real life actually used the phrase throbbing member???



Actually, as a throbbing member of our upstanding community, I have used the phrase once. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> I don't know where the comparison of romance books and porn comes from... they are really, really lame when it comes to getting horny.


...so is porn. It is totally really really very lame as well.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

peacem said:


> Sat across from a woman on the train who was old enough to be my mother reading "A summer fling". Not once did she look aroused, perhaps a little bored and passing the time.
> 
> I don't know where the comparison of romance books and porn comes from...I haven't read one since the age of 12, so I may be speaking out of turn, but they are really, really lame when it comes to getting horny. I get more horny from people here on TAM finger wagging and pearl clutching, it kind of makes the whole thing more forbidden and exciting. Normalising porn makes it...well...normal and quite boring.


The comparison isn't based on ability to arouse. It is based on that the user in both cases is using that particular media as a fantasy escape from their real relationship to immerse themselves in one they find more exciting or interesting. 

Men like to make this comparison when women accuse them of using porn to look outside the marriage for fulfillment. Men simply note that women do the same, just with a different media and a different definition of fulfillment. 

That said, I think there's a lot more men relying on porn than there are women reading tacky romance novels.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That said, I think there's a lot more men relying on porn than there are women reading tacky romance novels.


Have you been to the book aisle in the local Walmart lately? Porn is generally free and available online. Romance novels are free but also available in print versions that cost money. See how many dozens are for sale at Walmart. That means people (mostly women) are laying our cold hard cash for paper books in quantities sufficient for Walmart to stock hundreds of thousands or millions at any one time. Then come back and tell me that men using porn is orders of magnitude higher than women reading romance novels.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> Have you been to the book aisle in the local Walmart lately? Porn is generally free and available online. Romance novels are free but also available in print versions that cost money. See how many dozens are for sale at Walmart. That means people (mostly women) are laying our cold hard cash for paper books in quantities sufficient for Walmart to stock hundreds of thousands or millions at any one time. Then come back and tell me that men using porn is orders of magnitude higher than women reading romance novels.


Like me, theres a lot of folks who don't do Wal-Mart. I don't see romance novels anywhere I go.

I also suspect this is analogous to the point @john117 makes about how just because theres a gazillion guns doesn't mean everyone owns a gun. Rather a smaller proportion owns a large number of guns each. The women who read romance novels rabidly consume them, reading them at a pace of a few a week.


----------



## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

For those who feel like they want to delve into how porn addiction works on the brain: 


https://www.hopeandhealinglds.com/2...t-byu-pornographysexual-addiction-conference/


----------



## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

I do not consider it cheating at all. I t just does not interest me to watch porn, but if he wants to watch it i would not be bothered about it. I don't know for certain that he has never watched it but he has not discussed it with me.


----------



## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Neither one of us would.


----------



## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

In one word: NO.


----------

