# I have a dilemma and dont know what to do.



## MrHope (Jul 12, 2010)

Here is my dilemma, I have been married 13 and half years and now I have an 11 month son. I don’t know if my wife really loves me, is here for the ride or just mental issues. She says she love me but does not really show it. 

Before we got married she was living with some people as a nanny and was having issues with them. After we got married every thing seemed ok other then a bit of jealousy. Then an anger streak started showing up.

At about 2 years she thought I was cheating on her with every girl that looked at me and would walk out of stores if they got too close. In restaurant if the food looked wrong or not like she thought she would walk out. 

Also she says and feels that my family hates her. She staid with them for a few months when I had to leave for a job that she could not go to till I got seated and she left them and when to stay with a friend. The friend and her husband brought her back and said that they were sorry but they can’t handle her. Her and my bad constantly were at odds but she blamed my mom. Also from the beginning my family would plan get to gathers and she would cancel at the last minute just be cause she did not want to go, but this is every time. 

After I brought her to where my job had me she started again with the cheating. I was cheating on her with every girl that spoke to me. We were there for about four years and it never lighted up a few time when I had to stay late she came to my work and demanded to see the hidden girls that they had for me. She would get real agree and start throwing stuff. When she gets agree she get violent. She is much smaller then I so I’m not real worried but still. She will hit me and yell “hit me, And Ill call the police”. She had brought the gun out one luckily she did not know how to load it. She also has come at me once with a knife and I had to stick it in the wall so she would not hurt any one. At that time I told here never to threaten me with a knife gun or any thing because I will walk out never to come back. Since then she has not tried that again but I had to restrain her multiple time so she would not hurt herself or me when she goes into those rages. 

We moved back after my time was done and still had the same family issues. Then she started saying that if I did not love here and she was going to leave. She would use thing like me not buying here something or not taking here places. She started blaming her self for not having a kid too. About 6years ago for Christmas we went to see my grandmother, and her and my aunt were wrapping presents and my wife said they were giving her dirty looks and she wanted to leave. They asked her is she wanted to go to sleep they fix the bed but she kept saying that she was not tired. At about 2 am she walked out and down the street. It took me over an hour to get her to come back in the house. The next day (Christmas) we left early she did not want to stay there, so we went to her cousin’s house and spent the rest of the weekend there. 

On the way home I told her that it was done and we were over, she was ok with it at first. About two hour later she wanted to know why I was so quite and we started arguing again the she undone her seatbelt and try to jump out of the car while we were doing 70 down the freeway. I grabbed her arm as she was going out the door. My shoulder hurt for two weeks after that. Every since then I have not been quit the same and dint quite feel the same about her. Before that she had threaten and tried to leave several time but I always stopped her. After that she never tried to leave but still threatens to leave even now when she does not get her way. She also realizes that she had a problem and said she would see a doctor. She said she did and they said she had depression and wanted to give her tranquilizers. This was like the second or third time that she said that she will change but after some time she always goes back to the way she was before.

After the suicide attempt I thought that maybe I should stick around for a bit longer and see how she does. She did do better for about two to three years with some minor incidents to where I had to restrain her a couple of time but nothing lasting or really big. She also has a hard time keeping a job. She always quiets because she does not like how the “treat” her or it always “their way”. I tried to help her get her GED but she always has excuses why she cant study or the book are too expensive and we don’t have the money (but we do).she has no real education so every one want to start her out a minimum wage and she says its not worth working for that, so she either clean houses but only like on to two a week or does waitress if the tips are good. But as soon as someone tells her some thing she does not like she leaves. 

She kept saying that if we had a baby that thing would be different for her, because that’s what she was missing. At this point we have been married for about 10 or 11 years and still no kids. We have gone to a lot of doctors over the last 8 years and they could not find any real problem. After 11 years she finally got pregnant. During her pregnancy she seamed to be a normal person and was actually fun to be around. 

After the baby was bone she did not want me in the bed because she was afraid that I might roll on the baby so I slept on the floor. This lasted for about 2 week then I moved to the living room couch, it was softer and I could get sleep. For the next 5 month I was on the couch and she would not let me move back to the bed. I finally told her it my bed too and I’m sleeping in it. She reluctantly gave in. 

She did not go back to work after the baby. Which I don’t mind but she wants me to redirect my paycheck to her account and she want to pay all the bill and a lot me my gas money. I give her anywhere from $300 to $800 a month depending on what other thing pop up. She thinks I have another girl some where and says if I don’t give her my paycheck she will leave me. I told her that she has full access to the account that the check is deposited in to and that the same account that pays the bill I can show her where the money is going but that’s not really good enough for her. She threatens to come to my work and tell my boss that I not supporting her and she want may paycheck. Be side that I got her to com down a bit by showing her where the money is going and she want all the left over money so I tried it once and ended up with a negative account because she primmest to pay me back after having me pick up food and other stuff that she wanted then never did and said that I don’t know how the manage my money and this is why she need control over my money. Al the bills are paid and I give her extra money for food and other stuff. Most of the time after she buys food she either puts the rest into saving or sends it to her family. Some time I think I’m supporting her family. 

She always threatens me with divorce or just emptying out my account and leaving me and taking our son with her. I been to church consolers and a few other and the all say to read book and watch videos and do what they say. I tried and I tried to get her in to see a counselor but she thinks that a counselor is for crazy people and she’s not crazy. 

About a month ago the baby started walking and was standing up on his own, he few away from me before I could catch him and she came running into the room. She asked what happen and I told her and she said I was lying and said that I threw the baby and started kicking me while I was sitting on the floor holding the baby. I turn to block the kicks with my feet and she thought I was hitting her so she said that she was going to call the cops for me hitting her. I got up and said hears the phone call them. She was still hitting me and trying to take the baby away from me. I told her that she needed to calm down and that she acting lick a crazy person and was going to hurt the baby. Then she say I was calling her crazy and said that shed show me crazy if I called her crazy again. 

My mom was over a few weeks ago and the baby had a small red spot on his arm. I gat the baby to my mom for a minute and my wife came in the room and asked where I was I said I’m right here in the hall. She took the baby away from my mom and went to the bedroom. When I got in there I asked why and she said that my mom was hurting the baby and that she put a red spot on his arm, then she started pinking me trying to put one on me. I told her that if my mom did that the baby would have been crying. She insisted that she did it. She will not let the baby out of her site for any thing. She thinks every one want to hurt him. 

Another thing, the last year she has been saying that evil is every where and if you disagree with her then you have evil in you or are listening to evil. 

Also the sex like has all but faded. It when from 2 to 3 time a day to 2 to 3 time a month in just the last two year. Before the baby she said she only want me to get pregnant. After the baby it excuse after excuse and always tell me later, so I say after a few days of chasing her with no luck “let me know when your ready”. After a week or so she says that I don’t love her and must have a girlfriend because I don’t touch her any more. Recently I confronted her about this and told her that I don’t feel loved and I need some time with her, I want her to want me and I need to feel it. At first she avoided the question then would not answer it directly. She said its evil attacking me. I told her that I don’t want to hear any thing about evil or any thing else I want action. Then she said that she needed to feed the baby. Its 12am the baby is sleeping and I told her the baby can wait a few minutes. She insisted so I said fine go feed the baby. She got up then came back and asked what wrong. I told her again that I was tired of chasing her around just for her to tell me later or to stop touching her or she will hit me. That I needed her to come to me, and that she had not in the last 3 years or so. First she laughed at me and said ya right like that will happen. Then I told he find just go feed the baby, and I just laid there. She responded as she got up “so you want to fight lets fight. I’ll call the cops. So you want to fight lets call the cops and get it over with”. I did not say any thing, I did not know what to say. It felt like some just ripped my heart out jumped on it then hit it across the room. In the past she has said that she does not want to come to me because she does not want me to look at her as a ****. I said you I never will I just want to feel wanted.

I find my self starting to look at other girls and it getting harder to say no. I feel like I need to leave her and every time she has a fit I’m more then ready to. But when she’s calm I feel like I’m the bad person and I’m being selfish. I try to help around the house I cook and wash the dishes and clean when she’s with the baby. But as soon as I sit down to resets then she’s allover me saying I’m not helping her. I go to work then come home and work some more, I either watch the baby and trying to do home work just to get yelled at that I’m not watching the baby or I’m out side cutting grass or some thing else that she want me to do. She complains about being home all day and want to go out when I get home if nothing need to be done around the house. She has a newer car then I that I just bought her for her and the baby but I drive it more then she dose because she will not go anywhere while I’m at work. I have to take time off to take the baby to the doctor, take her to the doctor; she does not go by herself. 

She want to work so she has extra money but only want to work for 2 to 3 hours on Saturday and Sunday, but dose not think I can take care of the baby. For the first 3 months the only thing she did was feed him and change his diaper when I was at work, other then that I did ever thing. She will call me at work some time and ask that I need to come home early because she need a break from baby when he is not feeling well. She say he drive her crazy but will not let him stay with anyone. She has a real trust issue. 

When is normal she fun to be around as long as she not talking about her family or how evil and jealous every one is. In a given week she can be some what normal for about 3 to 4 out of the 7 day depending on what’s going on. It like a rollercoaster or a mine field, some time it may go a month with a few little wave here and there. I feel like I’m in a mine field and don’t know what will set one off. You could be in a normal conversation and she will take one work and twist it to get all pissed off then the rest of the day is a wreck. 

I love her but I don’t know how much more I can take. It’s hard for me to concentrate on any thing I behind in my school because she thinks I care more about my school and computer then her. I’m not an agree or violent person but she’s starting to annoy me and she act lick a 16 year old and is in her mid 30s. She seams to be the only person that can piss me off and some time I just want to slap here. I have never hit her in my like except one time I slapped her when she punched me between the legs. It was a reflex I could not stop it. I told her she was lucky that it was a slap and not a punch. But it getting harder to control. I normal walk away but she follows me I ignore her and she gets louder. Most of the time after a while she will gut leave and go do what ever she was yelling about of some thing and I wait till she comes down or she messes it up then I got to fix it. 

I don’t want to leave because of my son but I don’t want to do some thing that will put me in jail and loose my job and my son. I feel guilty for even thinking it when she is calm and I see my son. I’ve been trying to look at stuff in a different light the last three week and am starting to see some thing differently but I still feel like I’m the bad guy.

I could write a book on every thing that happens but this is it in a nutshell.

What should I do? Stay and just put up with it for my son and hope I don’t hit her or some thing when she pops, or leave. I’m in my early 30s and have almost as much gray hair as my dad ay 60. I’m about 30 lb under wait and have a hard time sleeping. I go to work and have a hard time constraining on my work because I’m thinking about what to do or not do.

Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MrHope (Jul 12, 2010)

I was reading in a nother post and some one brought up BPD. I looked in to this about 5 years ago and she has much of the traits but aslo some from Bipoler. Her sister has schizophrenia and resently got a divorce after 19 year. when she describes her sister she seams to be discribing herself.


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## Crypsys (Apr 22, 2010)

MrHope, there is nothing you can do. Your wife has major psychological issues. Nothing any of us can say will honestly help your situation at all. My wife grew up with a mother who is now in a nursing home (she's only 53). She is schizophrenic, bi-polar, manic-depressive. What your describing is almost exactly what my wifes mother is like. 

My wifes Father tried for years with therapy, in-patient care, out-patient care and honestly none of it ever worked. The only reason she's in a nursing home now is as a deal to get out of legal issues: Attempted kidnapping our children, 2nd degree assault (her own son) and robbery. 

I don't mean to sound like an a$$ but both my wife and her brother are still dealing with issues because they were raised around this woman. She ended up causing so much pain and drama for them both. Please if you listen to only one person, please leave. You can still try and get her help, but get yourself and your son the HELL away from her. It's just not healthy for him. If you don't want to do it for yourself, do it for him. I can write pages about what living with her was like and the issues her children are still facing to this day (they are in their 30's) because of it. At 20 I ended up taking in her brother to help try and raise him in a semi-stable environment. Think about that that, a 10 year old living with your sisters 20 year old piss-broke college student boyfriend was many times more stable then his home life.


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## MrHope (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks, I have a coworker that Has a mom the same way and he says that same thing. Half the people i talk to say stick it out and the other half say get away as fast as you can. 
I love her and feel Like I'm going to hurt her more by doing so. some time I feel that it my duty to take care of her but just cant handle it any more. 
Some time I tink im making a biger deal out of it becuase its not every day every hour but some time it can last for days. I was at this same point twice in the past. she is not as bad as the last yet but i'm starting to see some of the same signs again.


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## Crypsys (Apr 22, 2010)

MrHope said:


> Thanks, I have a coworker that Has a mom the same way and he says that same thing. Half the people i talk to say stick it out and the other half say get away as fast as you can.
> I love her and feel Like I'm going to hurt her more by doing so. some time I feel that it my duty to take care of her but just cant handle it any more.
> Some time I tink im making a biger deal out of it becuase its not every day every hour but some time it can last for days. I was at this same point twice in the past. she is not as bad as the last yet but i'm starting to see some of the same signs again.


Yes, it was the same way with my wifes mother. She would seem normal for a while, then something would trigger it and BLAM. Your son does not deserve to be around it.

Look man , i'll be brutally honest here, your son is going to have a lot of issues to deal with if you stay around her like this. It WILL cause him issues, I have 0 doubt about it. So what's more important, taking care of her or your son? It absolutely sucks you have to make this decision, but that's just how it is. In the end, do you care enough for your son to get him away from this? I'm telling you from personal experience, it will NOT end up well. What ended up happening is my wife's Father is still co-dependent on her. He jumps when she says jumps, and he does her bidding. Usually in cases like this the other spouse ends up being co-dependent upon the other one (which from reading between the lines it's sounding like your becoming). Your son deserves better.

Feel free to look at my posts on this board, I am not generally this frank and blunt. But this is something I have my share of experiences with. I've dealt with her in one way or another for almost half my life (for my wife and her brother their whole life). Hell, the damn woman tried kidnapping our 2 eldest sons! I know what that kind of person is capable of, they are a ticking time bomb.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mr. Hope, I am so sorry you are going through such painful experiences. I agree with everything Crypsys said, namely that you cannot help your W and you should leave to protect yourself and your son. I also agree with you that your W's behavior sounds like classic BPD (borderline personality disorder). Because her tantrums are event-triggered and come on in seconds, it seems that her primary problem is BPD, not bipolar (but she may also have that too).


MrHope said:


> I have been married 13 and half years and now I have an 11 month son.


A therapist who treats a lot of couples in BPD relationships says that such relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. They last 18 months, he says, when the nonBPD partner has strong personal boundaries. In that case, he will enjoy the passionate six-month honeymoon period and then spend another year trying to restore it. Then he bails.

They last 15 years, he says, when the partner has weak personal boundaries (like you and me). In that case, the partner never does leave the BPDer. Instead, she walks out on him. The reason is that, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful that he cannot fix her or make her happy -- which are impossible. Moreover, as her body ages, her fear of abandonment grows so strong that she cannot stand it any longer. All of this struck a chord with me because I held on for 15 years, at which time my BPD wife left me. 

I mention this because I don't want to see you go any further down the path that I pursued. Very likely, your W will leave you in a few years anyway and will have damaged your son in the process.


> She’s starting to annoy me and she acts like a 16 year old and is in her mid 30s.


No, she acts like a FOUR year old because her emotional development was frozen at that age due to the trauma she experienced in early childhood. She survived childhood only because she relied heavily on magical thinking, black-white thinking, projection, and splitting (i.e., dissociation). Those are the only defense mechanisms available to a four year old. She needed them so badly that she held on to them for dear life, refusing to let go. That is why she never learned the more sophisticated defenses that we adults use, e.g., she never learned how to calm herself down or to control her emotions.


> I don’t know if my wife really loves me, is here for the ride or just mental issues. She says she loves me but does not really show it.


Yes, she likely does love you. But she loves you the same way a four year old does. That is, a four year old loves daddy when he is meeting her every need but instantly switches to hating daddy when he withholds the tiniest thing. This perception of people as "all good" or "all bad" is all that a four year old is capable of. They are too young to be able to mentally handle "paradox," i.e., they cannot simultaneously believe two opposing ideas, as in "that good man is doing a bad thing." 

Well, your W is like that too. She has the intellectual ability to handle paradoxes but is so emotionally immature that it is far too uncomfortable for her to be willing to do it. This, then, is why she flips back and forth between adoring you and hating you. And, as you have seen a thousand times, she can flip in 15 seconds or less. This does not mean, however, that she will keep flipping forever. At some point, she likely will flip to hating you and will abandon you -- as my exW did me.


> After we got married every thing seemed ok other then a bit of jealousy. Then an anger streak started showing up.


Because the childhood trauma nearly destroyed a BPDer's self image, she often has the feeling that she does not know who she is. She therefore spends considerable time each day acting in a way she believes others will find acceptable. And, when she became infatuated with you, she pulled out all the stops and acted just like you, pretending to like everything and every person you like. This process is called "mirroring." She could sustain it for only about six months because, each month, she grew increasingly resentful of going places she did not like and being with people she did not enjoy. Hence, red flags were likely appearing at six months that you chose to ignore because -- like me -- you were so much in love.


> At about 2 years she thought I was cheating on her with every girl that looked at me and would walk out of stores if they got too close.


Due to the childhood trauma of abuse or outright abandonment (or due to an inherited problem), a BPDer's greatest fear is abandonment. Moreover, her ability to trust you was destroyed by that trauma. As a result, she is intensely jealous of you being around nearly ANYBODY.


> She says and feels that my family hates her. ... from the beginning my family would plan get-togethers and she would cancel at the last minute just because she did not want to go.


In addition to being jealous of other women, a BPDer will be jealous of you being close to your friends and family members. My exW, for example, rarely would go visit my family with me and she hated my foster son. On top of that, a BPDer has an obsessive need to control her loved ones so as to make sure they do not abandon her. Yet, control is difficult if the spouse has a supportive family that keeps him centered and grounded. So a BPDer usually tries to isolate her spouse from that supportive network. Note, however, this is not done to be malicious or cause harm. Rather, it is done in a desperate attempt to mollify her extreme fear of abandonment.


> When she gets angry she gets violent. ... She will hit me and yell “hit me, And Ill call the police”... She brought the gun out once but luckily she did not know how to load it.


Meanness and vindictiveness and abuse are a hallmark of BPD. It is not done because the BPDer is a "bad" person. Instead, it is done because -- like any four year old -- the BPDer is doing black-white thinking. When she is splitting you white, she projects wonderful attributes onto you that you cannot possibly have. That is why she adores you so much at that time. Conversely, when she is splitting you black, she projects bad attributes onto you. Hence, she sincerely believes that you are Hitler and will treat you accordingly. Think about it: when Hitler is standing in the living room, a gun and knife do not seem out of place at all. This is why BPD is called a "thought disorder." Her perception of you is distorted -- both when you are being split black and when you are being split white. This very unstable and unpredictable behavior means that you are living in a dangerous environment and it likely will get worse.


> She would use things like me not buying her something or not taking her places.


Due to the childhood trauma, she has an emptiness -- a neediness -- inside that is insatiable. You can never make her happy for more than a few hours (a few days if you spend a fortune). Moreover, she is incapable of appreciating all the things you have done for her over the past 13 years. Because she cannot regulate her emotions, strong feelings sweep over her nearly every day. Those feelings are so intense that they wash away any feeling of gratitude -- or of anything else -- she once felt. For a BPDer, her reality is what she is feeling right now.


> She undid her seat belt and tried to jump out of the car while we were doing 70 down the freeway.


High functioning BPDers like my exW will use suicide threats to be controlling. My exW, for example, would walk to bridges here in the city, knowing that I was following a block away for her protection. She also called me from a payphone -- on several occasions -- while standing on a subway platform, so I could hear the trains rumbling by. She would say she is going to jump in front of the next train and then would hang up. But she never did jump.

In contrast, your W was so serious that you injured your arm pulling her back into the car. This reckless behavior indicates that she is very ill at those times. With BPD, such behavior is not unusual because it oftentimes is accompanied by depression or bipolar disorder.


> She also realizes that she had a problem and said she would see a doctor. She said she did and they said she had depression and wanted to give her tranquilizers.


The depression, as I said above, often accompanies the BPD but is not her most serious problem. In any event, there is little chance she will stay in therapy. Therapist Shari Schreiber says you have a better chance flying to the moon strapped to a banana than seeing a BPDer stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. Because BPDers hate themselves, the last thing they want to hear is one more thing that must be added to the long list of things they hate about themselves. They therefore do not want to admit to a flaw or mistake. Instead, they persist in thinking of themselves as victims, refusing to take responsibility for any of their actions. And, to be a "victim," it is essential to have a "perpetrator" around -- which is why you get blamed for every misfortune.


> This was like the second or third time that she said that she will change but after some time she always goes back to the way she was before.


Actually, she probably believes it when she says it ... the same way a four year old believes what she is saying. Yet, when she wakes up the next day, her feelings change and that means the whole world has changed. This is why, after you buy her something she pleaded for, she will lose interest in it within two weeks tops. My exW, for example, begged for a piano and I spent $3,500 on one -- which she played a total of five times in three years. I could give you a long list of such examples, including $6,000 on fabrics and $5,000 on sewing machines -- all for a total sewing output of one dress, one vest, and a cat collar.


> She kept saying that if we had a baby that thing would be different for her, because that’s what she was missing.


Like I said, there is an empty hole inside her than cannot possibly be filled. As the years go by, she will increasingly resent the fact that you cannot make her happy.


> I got her to calm down a bit by showing her where the money is going


Because she never learned to do self-soothing, you do the calming for her. In that way, you have become a "soothing object." She uses you to calm her. The irony, however, is that you cause her to be far more upset than you are able to calm. Because you love her the most, you are the one person in the world who poses the greatest threat to her of abandonment. Hence, your mere presence in her home causes you to be a frequent trigger of the enormous rage and anger she has been carrying inside since childhood.

This is why you should not think of your toxic marriage as something that SHE is doing to you. Rather, the toxicity is something that BOTH of you are doing to each other. Her toxic role is quite obvious but yours is less so. You are harming her by being an "enabler" who enables her to avoid confronting her illness and learning how to manage it, e.g., learning how to calm herself down. Moreover, as noted above, your mere presence keeps triggering her into tantrums and outbursts. I say this not to make you feel bad but, rather, to liberate you. The primary thing holding you in that toxic marriage is your guilt and sense of responsibility -- both of which are misplaced because your W's only chance of confronting her illness is your leaving.


> She said that I don’t know how to manage my money and this is why she needs control over my money.


As I said, a BPDer is so fearful of abandonment that she tries to control every aspect of her loved one's life. This does not mean, however, that she is manipulative, which requires not only good planning but also consistent execution. BPDers usually are too reactive to what is happening around them to be good at manipulation -- even when they try to do it. That is, impulsive people make for poor manipulators.


> I been to church consolers and a few others and they all say to read books and watch videos and do what they say.


Very few church counselors or other marriage counselors are trained to recognize BPD, much less treat it. Once you read about the nine BPD traits, however, you will find that they are fairly easy to recognize. What is hard is determining whether they are so severe as to warrant a diagnosis of full blown BPD. Such a diagnosis can only be done accurately by a professional, usually a psychologist. 

Even so, you can spot the traits yourself. For example, by the time you were 18, you could spot strong traits of selfishness and grandiosity in girls whom you decided not to date. And you could do so even though you could not determine whether those traits were so severe as to reach the diagnostic level for "NPD" (narcissistic personality disorder).


> I tried and I tried to get her in to see a counselor but she thinks that a counselor is for crazy people and she’s not crazy.


Actually, if she has BPD, she has a thought disorder but is not "crazy." A person is considered "crazy" when their perceptions of the physical world are greatly distorted. Yet, when the only thing that is distorted is their perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations, they are said to be disordered but not crazy. Because my foster son has bipolar disorder, he has slipped into psychosis on at least nine occasions. Each time I had to have him hospitalized and it would take at least two months before they would discharge him back to me. Then it would take another three months for his mind to fully clear. So I can tell you that, once you've seen it, you will know there is a BIG difference between BPD and "crazy."


> She said I was lying and said that I threw the baby and started kicking me while I was sitting on the floor holding the baby.


A BPDer will not hesitate to lie to your face if she feels cornered, fearful she will have to admit to herself that she made a mistake. More often, however, she is misperceiving your intentions and thus really believes the incredible allegations coming out of her mouth. That is why BPDers are so persuasive when the police show up. My exW, for example, decided she wanted to live in our home for the 18 months it takes here to go through the divorce process. So she went into a tantrum, chasing me room to room. I retreated to my bedroom, where she was in the process of destroying the door when I pushed her away from it and she tripped, falling down. In our State, that push constitutes
physical abuse. So she called the police and had me arrested. Because it was Saturday morning, I was in jail 2 and a half days until the court was open to arraign me and release me. During that time, she saw an attorney and had a restraining order that barred me from returning home for 18 months. My point, then, is that a raging BPDer like my exW -- and your W -- can change in 15 seconds into a woman who graciously opens the front door and calmly describes your "wife beating" to the police. Like I said, BPDers are great actors and, indeed, many enter that profession.


> I turn to block the kicks with my feet and she thought I was hitting her so she said that she was going to call the cops for me hitting her.


You are flirting with disaster. She will not only have you locked up but will then use your "physical violence" as a basis for taking your son from you. And heaven help your son if he is raised by a BPDer. A 2008 study of nearly 35,000 American adults found that 6% had BPD at the diagnostic level -- and that 70% of those BPDers reported having been abused in early childhood. My exW, for example, had been abused by her father for years in childhood. The remaining 30% apparently got BPD by inheriting it from one parent.


> Another thing, the last year she has been saying that evil is every where and if you disagree with her then you have evil in you or are listening to evil.


That likely is the result of the black-white thinking I discussed above. That is, everyone is either an angel or a devil. And she may also have some paranoia when under extra stress. To really know what mixture of disorders she might have, you would need to see a psychologist -- on your own -- and describe her behavior. If you take her along and the psych is treating her too, there is a good chance you will never hear the true diagnosis because BPD is usually not covered by insurance and because telling a BPDer that she "has BPD" usually results in her immediately terminating therapy.


> She responded as she got up “so you want to fight lets fight. I’ll call the cops. So you want to fight lets call the cops and get it over with.”


Like I said, Mr. Hope, you are in great danger of being arrested, if she doesn't decide to kill you. Remember, it does not matter how much she "loves" you while splitting you white. All of that goes out the window when she splits you black because she cannot be in touch with two sets of feelings (i.e., "love you" and "hate you") at the same time. This is why the woman you so dearly love -- like the woman I still dearly love -- are so dangerous. They are unstable. They are unpredictable. They are so confused that they don't even know who they are. And you cannot do a thing to help her because she cannot trust you and will not believe you. Hence, if you tell her she "has BPD," she will project it right back onto you and she will sincerely believe you are the one with that disorder. To this day, my exW believes I am violent, a frequent liar, and a man who has BPD -- all qualities that she herself has. She must project them onto me to escape the terrible pain and guilt of recognizing those flaws in herself.


> But when she’s calm I feel like I’m the bad person and I’m being selfish.


If you are only feeling bad and selfish, you are stronger than most partners. Most men who have been living with a BPDer for 13 years not only feel bad and guilty but also fear that they may be going crazy -- losing their minds, because living with an unstable women is so disorienting, with them always blaming you for everything and suddenly hating you, turning on a dime. Indeed, therapists see far more partners and spouses coming in for treatment than they see BPDers. 

On the websites targeted to nonBPD partners like us, those partners who come stumbling out of a BPD relationship refer to this confusion as "gaslighting." It is named after the classic 1944 movie "Gaslight," in which a husband (Charles Boyer) tries to drive his new bride (Ingrid Bergman) crazy so as to steal her family's jewels. For an excellent explanation of why it is so difficult for caregivers like you and me to leave a BPDer, I suggest you read a short article at http://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/10_beliefs.pdf .


> She want to work so she has extra money but only want to work for 2 to 3 hours on Saturday and Sunday


Such an absurd statement will suddenly make sense to you if, while you are listening to her, you will visualize her as a four year old girl telling you her wish of the day. This is not to say, however, that your W is exactly like a typical four year old. She is not. After all, she has the knowledge, intelligence, and body strength of a full grown adult. Another difference is that she is full of hurt and rage. Yet, whenever she gets stressed -- and that happens very easily in a few seconds -- she turns control of her actions and decisions over to her inner child -- and she loses touch with the logical adult part of her mind. So, every time you have an argument or serious discussion with her, you are forced to deal with the young child inside her. That is why logic cannot make a dent in what she believes. Her beliefs are based only on what she is feeling at the moment. For her, those feelings are facts.


> In a given week she can be some what normal for about 3 to 4 out of the 7 day depending on what’s going on. ... I feel like I’m in a mine field and don’t know what will set one off.


This is why the most popular BPD book that is targeted to men like us is called "Stop Walking on Eggshells."


> I don’t want to do some thing that will put me in jail and loose my job and my son.


Nor did I but I ended up in jail. When you are living with an unstable woman, you are in danger of her calling the police and having you arrested on a bogus charge. Here in the States, the police (indeed our whole society) are trained to favor the wife and to arrest the husband. Indeed, the officer who arrested me later confided in me that their normal practice, when in doubt, is to arrest the spouse who did not place the call to police. He therefore counseled me that, if this ever occurred again, I should race to the phone and be the first to call. But, of course, you cannot afford to live on the edge like that because you cannot risk losing your son to her.


> I could write a book on every thing that happens but this is it in a nutshell.


When you read a few classic books on BPD you will find that they read like a biography of your W's life. That is how I felt when reading "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" and the "Eggshells" book mentioned above. If you have any questions about BPD, I will try to answer them. I am not a psychologist but, like Crypsys, I will be glad to share my experiences with you. Meanwhile, Mr. Hope, I wish you and your family the best possible outcome.


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## MrHope (Jul 12, 2010)

thanks uptown.
I am the type of person that wants my partner to be happy but when every thing i did, didn't make a difference I started researching. most of my research was in different mental disorders and their treatment. I took all the test my self and then retook them as if i was her and answered them how i saw her acting or how she answered things and question that i asked her. BPD then was just called form every thing i read Borderline. the thing that i found out or that she matched from what i could remember was depression, BPD of course and she nailed i think 10 out of the 11 or 12 questions, paranoia, and two others but not Bipolar or sictso. I read every think i could find on the net about BPD and how to live with a BPD person. the only reason I'm still with her is because I wanted to help her and of cause i love her. also another part of me was that i wanted her to leave me and not me leaving her, selfish on my part i know.

She matches the childhood trauma well. her dad became an alcoholic when she was like 3 or 4. she saw her dad beat her mom and was pulled out of bed many time by the hair. she left home at the age of 12. she always ran from her problems and never faces them but with me she is forced to. 

I have grate patients and I encourage her to work through her problems. I also have shown her how to calm her self down. She has come a long way from when i first notest this some thing was greatly wrong and learned how to deal with it. she no longer talks of suicide and uses her story to help others. she does not have as big of out busts as she did before. 

She has learned allot but i'm all done. I was always afraid that my patients would run out before she would get better, and it about has. especially after seeing some of her improvements are starting to slip. she has learned to control it most of the time. I try to make her think about what shes doing and ask her questions. most of the time this bring her back or snaps her back to reality. 

What worries me the most is her comments that she makes. little comments here and there that have no real meaning by them self but put together and it starts to paint a picture. and I really don't like what I'm seeing.

You were also talking about projection. she does this with her family allot especially her sister. when talking about her sister shes describing herself. 

this is why i'm here, I think my kindness and wanting to help has helped her in many ways but in doing so I've sacrificed myself and now i'm burned out. I now want a normal life and am tired of the game or experiment or what ever you want to call it. I feel she playing me and i'm all out.

the picture that she has paned me is split, mostly of it that i see is that she is looking for a way out and want to be free. Ive seen the for many years, but she is so depended on me that she feels that she cant leave with out reason so she trys to find one hence the cheating and not loving her idea. the other is the two of us together but she has not eluded much to that. 

know i think i got myself into a situation that I'm afraid what she will doe once i break her the news. she is the tp of BPD that cant turn off the anger like some of the others. Once shes there you have to wait for her to come down on her own or be shocked back to reality. and in the court room or in front of copes I think she might go to far. 

if and when most likely when i tell her its over i plan on having the sheriff here to watch her so she does not do some thing. ive been looking for an apartment and checking pricing. I just want to wait for about 6 more month if i can. she breast feeding the baby and he has not taken to the bottle yet. and has just started to walk but not fully. my neighbor was dating a cope and told me to call the police and let them know how i feel if things start to get hairy before she looses it. 

sorry for the spelling and type-os it late she is sleeping and im on a laptop. 

I'm a planner and thinker and always think things through. I try to remain calm and do well at it most of the time. I'm looking to see what others have done, gone through or just plain thought before i make the jump and one i probably should have done so long ago.

I'm accepting all input so please feel free to leave you thoughts.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

She's dangerous and unstable. Time to go I think. She will have you tried to be arrested though. When you leave you got to do a one and done with divorce papers, moving out and a restraining order.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrHope said:


> I have shown her how to calm her self down. She has come a long way ... she no longer talks of suicide and uses her story to help others. she does not have as big of out busts as she did before. this is why i'm here, I think my kindness and wanting to help has helped her in many ways but in doing so I've sacrificed myself and now i'm burned out. ... I feel she playing me and i'm all out.


I thought I was helping my wife too. For 15 years, I took her to weekly sessions with six different therapists and I also went to couple sessions with those same therapists -- at a cost of over $200,000 above what insurance was paying. Only at the very end, when she turned on me and had me arrested, did I realize that the many small improvements I was too quick to "see" were just her polishing her act -- and were largely the result of me learning how to walk on eggshells -- sacrificing my true personality -- so as to avoid triggering her rage.

BPD is perhaps the most insidious personality disorder an individual can have because it results from severe damage to the emotional core. It cannot be cured at this time. Yet, if a BPDer is very self aware -- and maybe only one or two out of a hundred are -- she can learn how to manage her disorder by controlling her emotions. That trick takes several years, perhaps five or more, to learn. And it can be learned only from the psychologists who are trained in teaching it. Moreover, their success rate is spotty because it is difficult to keep the BPDers in therapy long enough to make a difference.

Hence, I believe that you -- like I was for 15 years -- are seriously over-estimating your past ability to "heal" her. Nobody has that power. Only she can do it and it takes expert guidance. What you were seeing, I believe, was the calming effect you had on her as long as you continued walking on eggshells, being someone you are not -- sacrificing your true self. As soon as that stops, you will see her revert to her old behavior and be just as sick as before.

I say this not to rob you of your sense of accomplishment but, rather, to rob you of your overpowering sense of obligation and guilt. As long as you persist in mistakenly believing that you can help her heal, you will be unable to leave her. Like me, you are a natural born caregiver. Hence, the notion of walking out on a sick loved one goes against your religion, your family's values, your marital vows -- indeed, against _every fiber of your being_. This is why I spent considerable time in my first post above in trying to explain that, as an enabler, you are doing her more harm than good by staying.

As I was, you likely were raised in a way that made you grow up too quickly. In my case, my dad was a bit alcoholic, causing my mother to rely on me -- at too young an age -- to meet many of her needs not met by my dad. Perhaps you did not take that path. But, like me, you ended up being a caregiver just the same. Our problem is not that we want to help people. That is a good thing. Our problem is that we are willing to keep doing it even when it is to our great detriment. This occurs because, when we were being raised, we were inadvertently taught that being _needed_ is the same thing as being _loved_. The result is that our desire to be _needed_ (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). 

We are drawn to wounded birds and we ignore the men running in the opposite direction. We also ignore the fact that BPD is the type of wound we cannot fix. Attempting to heal a BPD sufferer with your love is a fool's errand. It is like trying to heal a burn patient by hugging her.

Hence, even if you aren't sucked back into a relationship with your exGF, there is some risk you will be drawn to another just like her unless you understand how you contributed to your toxic marriage. Significantly, emotionally healthy men who have strong personal boundaries do not remain in toxic relationships very long -- perhaps 18 months tops. Therapists therefore describe guys like us as being "codependent," a terribly misleading term. It is a bad name because most codependents that I've met are fiercely independent in nearly every respect. A typical codependent will be working full time, taking care of two kids and five dogs, and still find time on weekends to go out searching for a spouse to also take care of. 

For a much better explanation of why we grew up to be caregivers (i.e., the best detailed technical explanation I've seen), go to Shari Shreiber's website at GettinBetter.com/needlove.html. Schreiber articulates very well why "caregiver" men are attracted to the intensity of a BPD relationship and explains how that dysfunctional type of intensity is perceived as "love" by men like us because it reflects what we experienced at a young age with our mothers, who needed us too much. The result is that we have difficulty feeling that we are loved if the woman does not desperately need us. Hence, when dating, we will walk right past the women who actually love us and choose, instead, an emotionally unstable woman who produces sufficient passion and drama to convince us that we are really needed.


> I was always afraid that my patience would run out before she would get better, and it about has. especially after seeing some of her improvements are starting to slip.


The reason her "improvements" are slipping most likely is due to your emotional growth in recent years, allowing you to establish stronger personal boundaries. That is, you are no longer walking on eggshells so much. Instead, you are behaving more like your real self. I had a similar emotional growth in the last two years of my marriage and it scared my wife, so the $200,000 in behavioral "improvements" I had acquired started "slipping away," as you say.

Of course, the truth is that my wife had never made any substantive improvements at all. Instead, all of the therapy sessions were games to her -- and she had become more proficient at the game. This realization came to me during the nearly three days I sat in jail. I therefore am hopeful it will come to you as you are sitting there comfortably at home.

As to your supposed loss of patience, no, I don't believe that for a minute. What you are perceiving to be a loss of patience most likely is your stronger personal boundaries, which means you are no longer willing to put up with so much abuse. Hence, what you are describing as a weakness is actually a strength -- and you should feel proud of your accomplishment.

I say this because I know what true patience is. By myself, I have taken care of my bipolar foster son for 30 years, which included nine occassions in which I had to physically drag him out of my home and follow him around town for two hours until he agreed to go to the ER to be admitted to the psychiatric unit. Eventually, I weaned him away from hospitals and he has been doing great now for 18 years. But, until he was, he was a handful. On one occasion, when I was eating with him in a restaurant, a man -- who was leaving with his own child -- walked over to me and said "Sir, I've been watching you and your son and you are amazing -- you must have the patience of Job."

I mention this because, as I have aged, my body chemistry has changed and I no longer have that patience. This happens to everyone and it is the reason that grandparents usually do not want to take care of their grand kids for too long -- and is why the grandparents don't like to drive in traffic any more. Of course, you are way too young for this to be a problem. Yet, if you were to stay with your wife into old age -- as I did -- you would have far more instances of your hand automatically slapping her when she hits or kicks you. It is something you cannot control consciously because it is a nervous reaction.


> You were also talking about projection. she does this with her family a lot especially her sister. when talking about her sister shes describing herself.


With my exW, I could almost read her mind. As a BPDer, she did so much projection that, as a bad thought crossed her mind, she would immediately get rid of the guilt by accusing me of wanting to do it. Hence, I often knew what terrible thing she was thinking of doing by observing the things she was accusing me of.


> the picture that she has painted me is split, most of it that i see is that she is looking for a way out ... but she feels that she cant leave with out reason


Perhaps. But I suspect it is not that complicated. The push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle is a hallmark of BPD. It is the result of a BPDer's twin fears: engulfment and abandonment. Because she has an unstable fragile self image, any time you draw close in intimacy she will experience engulfment. It is very frightening because she feels like she is being taken over by your strong personality -- like she is evaporating into thin air. To get breathing room, she will push you away. It may happen that same night or the next morning, usually taking the form of her creating an argument out of nothing.

Yet, as you back off to give her space, you will trigger her other great fear, abandonment. So, after her tantrum dies down (they typically last about five hours), she may wait a few hours (or days or weeks) and will start reeling you back in. Of course, as you draw close, the cycle starts all over again. For 15 years, I kept hunting for the Goldilocks position between "too close" and "too far" so as to avoid triggering both of those fears. I can tell you that, if that safe midpoint position exists at all, it is a knife edge that is continually shifting.


> I just want to wait for about 6 more month if i can. she breast feeding the baby and he has not taken to the bottle yet.


That sounds sensible. Keep in mind, however, that enormous damage to your son's self image and ability to bond can be done by a mother who is emotionally unavailable to her baby. This is why you should be vigilant to see if she is not bonding with him appropriately. I would think it would be far better for him to be nurtured by you and a bottle -- after all, you were raised to be a caregiver -- than to be suckled by a woman who is so unstable that her nurturing is turned on, turned off, then on again, and so on. That inconsistency is damaging at such a young age. I therefore would encourage you to ask a psychologist for a professional opinion if you have doubts in that regard.


> I'm looking to see what others have done, gone through or just plain though before i make the jump.


With 6% of the population having BPD at the diagnostic level and with perhaps another 4% having BPD traits that fall a little short of that level, there are millions of people who have come stumbling out of a BPD relationship -- or are still in one. The largest and most active website forum that is targeted to those nonBPD partners seems to be BPDfamily.com. It is so large that it has a dozen message boards where you can discuss your experiences with hundreds of people (mostly guys) just like you. Two of those boards should be especially helpful to you. One is "Leaving a BPD Relationship" and the other is "Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD." I suggest that you start by pasting your story in the "Leaving" board. Lots of very experienced guys will immediately step forward to help you out. I made this same suggestion to LVS on this forum because she has a BPDer husband. She has now been participating there at the "Leaving" board and also continues participating here too. Of course, Crypsys, Atholk, and I will still be here to give you support on this TAM forum as long as you find it helpful.


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## MrHope (Jul 12, 2010)

thanks uptown, I posted on BPDFamily.com thanks every one. The site seams to be down today get a DNS error.

anyway, in a marriage how often do most people argue and what are or should be the limits to fights. 

what I'm trying to do is find out what is normal and acceptable. 

I'm looking at daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly.
I'm looking at how often others disagree, argue, and fight, and who elevated the fights get.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I posted on BPDFamily.com thanks every one. The site seams to be down today get a DNS error.


MrHope, that site is back up now but, like you, I got a DNS error when trying to access it an hour ago.

As to fights, you should establish strong boundaries and explain to her what you will do when she crosses a boundary, e.g., you will go to another room if she gets verbally abusive and you will leave the house if she follows you room to room. Of course, setting boundaries is useless unless you enforce them religiously because the first thing she will do is test them to see if you will follow up with enforcement.


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## MrHope (Jul 12, 2010)

I have told her what they are and she tests them. I found out after reading some stuff ,asking her question about her sister and how she would handle it, and just dealing with her over time. I can brake them down to three things.

Normal anger issues.
Projection.
Altered reality.

When normal she has a temper and anger problem and knows it, she tries to control it and is doing a good job of it. she may be quick to anger but when aware of it she can control it when not pushed beyond her limits. She usually calms quickly and with an apology 

When she projecting she tends to build her anger towards that person and is unaware of what's happening. When she projects there is not much you can do. I first try to show her that her idea is incorrect and why. If she still keeps building on it then I just try to avoid her, usually this works but some times she's determined. 

If its a case of Altered reality there is nothing you can do but run. This happens really but has happened a few times and the last time was about a month and a half ago and before that can't really remember. at these time she loses all control and can become violent. She convinces herself that the version of reality that is in her head is the real thing and builds on it and as she builds on it her anger and aggression grows. 

I never know when the later two events will happen they just do. ant thing can trigger them. The last one that got a bit out of control was because my son fell when trying to walk, in her mined I threw him on the floor and she came in and stopped me form hurting him. yesterday was a similar incident but it did not go in to any series except her saying that I should of just thrown him down the stairs so she could call the cops on me. 

to day there was nothing more the a few snappy answers to normal question that i asked I consider it a good day for me. I have noticed even to day that she is starting to yell at the baby when he gets angry at her and starts saying dada, dada, dada.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> she is starting to yell at the baby when he gets angry at her and starts saying dada, dada, dada.


This comment, together with your comment about the baby having a red spot under his arm, scares the hell out of me. On top of that, your W is jealous of all your family members -- just like my exW. Indeed, my exW hated my foster son because I love him and spent time with him. Fortunately, my foster son was an adult, not an infant.

If your W has strong BPD traits as you suspect, what you are doing is effectively leaving a four-year-old child to take care of an 11 month old baby. *But not just ANY four year old.* Rather, one with the _body strength of a full grown adult._ One who has grabbed knives and brought out a gun in prior tantrums. And one with a _tremendous inner rage_ that can be triggered by any innocent comment ("dada, dada, dada") or action. 

I therefore urge you to immediately see a psychologist -- on your own -- to get a professional opinion as to how risky this is for your son. The greatest risk, I fear, is not physical damage but, rather, emotional damage. It appears that the most common way for a child to get BPD is to be raised by a BPD mother because such mothers, being unstable, send so many mixed signals that the child fails to learn how to bond with her and fails to develop a strong self image. As I said before, the most recent large-scale study found that 70% of BPDers report being abused or abandoned or raised by an emotionally unavailable mother. Moreover, your son may have inherited a gene making him predisposed to developing an emotional disorder which can take the form of BPD if the mother is intermittently emotionally unavailable.


> What should I do? Stay and just put up with it for my son.


No, you should_ leave _for your son, taking him with you -- if the psychologist says he is at risk. Of course, the only way you will be able to get full custody is if you accumulate evidence of your W's instability, e.g., hospitalizations and medications. This may mean calling the police when she is out of control so you have a record of it. I encourage you, while waiting for your apointment with a psychologist, to raise these questions with a good divorce attorney. And raise them at the "Divorcing a BPDer" board at BPDfamily.com and see what those guys suggest. They know exactly what you are up against. They may have some ideas about making some social services agency aware of the risk (if you can document it with evidence) so they can assist you -- but check with the lawyer first.


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## MrHope (Jul 12, 2010)

I called two lawyers and one returned my call on Monday. I told him what my situation was and he told me to document every think over the next few weeks to months unless I feel like me or my son is in danger. I asked him about moving out and he said that not a good idea because it could be taken as abandonment, unless there was reason and suspicion of endangerment to my son. He said that some of what’s going on is a bit out of his profession. I also asked about setting up cameras to see what happens when I’m not there but he said that if she does not know about them the tape would not be admissible in court. He did say that I can record any conversation as long as I’m in the conversation, but if I’m not in it I can’t record it. The plain is if I go through with it, I will apply for 50% custody due to the current lack of any proof of possible abuse, but that’s what the documentation is for. I also told him there may be a chance of her leaving the country with my son or her loosing it when she’s told.

I have a upcoming Doctors appointment for a physical and was told to tell him what’s going on. I also talk to a supervisor at my work and he is looking in to some other stuff that my company may provide. I called a couple of psychologist but they only work off referrals. 

So the ball is rolling I just don’t know what it all means yet. Because I still love her I keep thinking about how it will hurt her, and I have to keep telling my self to step out of the box for the time being. I have my son to think about too.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrHope, yes, you do have the ball rolling. Good for you and your son. At the BPDfamily site I mentioned, the common wisdom among ex-partners is not to say or do anything to let your BPD partner know you are thinking about moving out. They say it should come as a surprise because of the danger of an extreme tantrum. And, here in the States, it is amazingly easy for a wife to call the police, claim she was hit, and have you locked up -- giving her time to then get a restraining order keeping you away -- as happened to me.

Being careful with the computer means, of course, making sure you leave no traces (cookies or bookmarks or history) on your computer and no notes. You can set the browser to clear everything on closing -- but it will leave traces if someone is sophisticated in using computers -- and she could put a "logger" on your computer to track locations and everything written if she has access to it.


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