# Husband's Friendship with Another Woman



## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

My closest friend and I have been friends since 3rd grade. She in fact introduced me to my husband of 17 years. She was friends with him before I was. They continued their friendship over the years, but I was never uncomfortable with it or saw any problems until her husband was tragically passed away. Around the same time he passed, my husband lost his high paying job. It was an extremely stressful time for all of us. She was living out of state at the time and decided to move back home (where we live) to be close to her mother and friends to deal with the death of her husband. 

My husband become very depressed with losing his job and we almost lost our home. He eventually found another job but it doesn't make as much as his last one and we are struggling financially. She and my husband began texting more frequently and she would come over and spend the weekends with us. This was still fine with me. But then she would invite him over for ****tails on the way home from work and that's when the problems started. They were at her place alone and he would share with her and vent on things I would do that annoyed him. He also told her that when I don't give him enough sex he feels unsuccessful! She encouraged him to see a therapist and said therapy was helping her deal with many things. He made an appt with a therapist but didn't tell me he was struggling and was going for help. I found out the day he went for his first appt when I questioned why he couldn't help me pick up a kid from soccer practice. I guess I "dragged" it out of him. I later learned they texted for an hour after his appt and he never bothered to call and let me know how it went and instead said his therapist said he doesn't have to discuss his therapy appt.s with me.

Needless to say, I confronted her on this and she was offended and very defensive for thinking that I even was feeling upset over this and proceeded to tell me there is nothing going on between them. I likewise shared with him on several occassions that this is bothering me and I want him to stop calling her and texting her, that if they were going to spend time together that I was to be invited. His own therapist advised my suggestion.
The therapist then wanted me to attend a session with him, well he canceled it and now has stopped going saying therapy is a waste of time and money and isn't working for him.

They are still texting and calling each other. Basically, my feelings have been DISMISSED as they say nothing is going on between them they are just friends! Meanwhile, my marriage is going down the tubes and the husband blames me and says that I am pushing him away.

So, I started going to my own therapist which helps me, but doesn't help my marriage since he won't go with me or attend any other couples session.

I know I am right, but thoughts from others are welcome.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Tell him he either reads this book or moves out

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

If nothing more has happened yet, it will soon enough. This friendship needs to end, the sooner the better. If he refuses, it may already be too late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

I can't see him reading that because he in complete denial that his friendship with this woman is causing frustration, hurt and anger for me. I'm pretty sure he thinks that only having sex with other women is cheating, not "just friends". In any case I will check out the book!


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## Cubby (Mar 28, 2012)

Everyone who reads this can see down the road where this is heading very clearly.

They have a handy excuse they're using to justify their actions--"She's just an old dear friend!" And you become the bad person for objecting.

Your husband shouldn't be sharing marriage issues with another woman. That's a clear boundary he's crossed. Once they start talking about that, is when they really start to emotionally bond. And we all know what happens next (if it hasn't happened yet.)


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> I can't see him reading that because he in complete denial that his friendship with this woman is causing frustration, hurt and anger for me. I'm pretty sure he thinks that only having sex with other women is cheating, not "just friends". In any case I will check out the book!


If he chooses not reading a book over his wife, you have your answer.

Give him the ultimatum and then FOLLOW THROUGH. Nothing short of that will wake him up. If you don't take control of this situation, he's going to sleep with her, if he hasn't already. Maybe reading the book yourself will convince you of that, I don't know, but it's the truth. You MUST be willing to lose your marriage if you have any hope of saving it. He is deeply in denial and probably honestly thinks what he's doing is harmless, and only you can wake him up, and only with severe consequences.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

I agree with you guys. I don't think anything has happened yet, but really, why do you go to another's woman apt. alone for drinks?? Not cool. While your wife is at home slaving after your clean house and taking care of your kids. Bull****.

There isn't anything I can do. I have made my point loud and clear. I can't make him stop talking to her or seeing her.

We've been together for 17 years and have 3 awesome kids and an awesome home. I still look great at 43 and give him plenty of sex. I don't know why he feels he needs her friendship?

And her husband has been gone for almost 4 years now and she still hasn't started dating. Why not??


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## Aerith (May 17, 2013)

Looks like EA at least and clearly heading to PA. For your own sanity you should not trust him or her. 

You already tried reasoning and it didn't work well. They openly call and text each other - do you have access to their texts? 

I would advocate for some sleuthing...


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Find out how he would feel about you becoming emotionally close to a man, complaining to him about how your husband treats you. I bet he doesn't like it a single bit.

Hope is correct you need to really follow through with actions on this otherwise you are not going to fix this. You have to make him understand that he needs to put you and the marriage first. By not agreeing to the boundaries you are putting into place is the same as choosing another woman over his wife and you will not stand for it.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

MariaSews said:


> We've been together for 17 years and have 3 awesome kids and an awesome home. I still look great at 43 and give him plenty of sex. I don't know why he feels he needs her friendship?


Unfortunately this same exact thing has been said with the years married, ages, and number of kids adjusted to fit each individual setting. The BS lots of time doesn't have a clue that things were bad, upsetting, awful, or how ever you want to say it to the WS. THe WS on the other hand feels that this is the worst situation in the world and how could they possibly go on with this sham of a life. I hope that things haven't progressed into a full blown PA, but some of the things make one wonder and suspect


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> There isn't anything I can do.


 NOT true. If you keep thinking that way, your marriage is doomed.



MariaSews said:


> I have made my point loud and clear. I can't make him stop talking to her or seeing her.


No, you can't, but you CAN decide not to put up with it. You have to, or you can kiss your husband goodbye. If you stay married, it will be to someone who has cheated in every sense of the word. Is that what you want?


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

meson said:


> Find out how he would feel about you becoming emotionally close to a man, complaining to him about how your husband treats you. I bet he doesn't like it a single bit.
> 
> Hope is correct you need to really follow through with actions on this otherwise you are not going to fix this. You have to make him understand that he needs to put you and the marriage first. By not agreeing to the boundaries you are putting into place is the same as choosing another woman over his wife and you will not stand for it.


No, he wouldn't like it all. In fact, he went thru the roof when I was honest and told him I called an ex-boyfriend for advice on my old MBZ. He owns a shop in LA and I called for repair advice. I do not come in contact with him at all, it just so happens his mother is married to my uncle and I had been talking to my aunt about my car problems and she suggested I give her son a call, after all he was a german car expert. I should also mention he is happily married and has 3 kids. I was very honest with my husband about the call, but he came unglued and didn't talk to me for days!


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

What does BS and WS stand for? Thx.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> No, he wouldn't like it all. In fact, he went thru the roof when I was honest and told him I called an ex-boyfriend for advice on my old MBZ. He owns a shop in LA and I called for repair advice. I do not come in contact with him at all, it just so happens his mother is married to my uncle and I had been talking to my aunt about my car problems and she suggested I give her son a call, after all he was a german car expert. I should also mention he is happily married and has 3 kids. I was very honest with my husband about the call, but he came unglued and didn't talk to me for days!


Bingo! This is your wedge to convince him. Point out to him how he felt about this and tell him that you feel worse because he is letting it go much much further. And when you ask to back off he disrespects you by discounting it and continuing. You stopped why can't he. If he doesn't it's clear he is choosing the other woman OW and you won't be second place in your marriage. You need to be willing to walk away from the marriage to convince him you are serious.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Betrayed spouse and wayward spouse.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

meson said:


> Bingo! This is your wedge to convince him. Point out to him how he felt about this and tell him that you feel worse because he is letting it go much much further. And when you ask to back off he disrespects you by discounting it and continuing. You stopped why can't he. If he doesn't it's clear he is choosing the other woman OW and you won't be second place in your marriage. You need to be willing to walk away from the marriage to convince him you are serious.


Yep. That's what I thought. He said his situation is different because he hasn't "swapped fluids" with my friend but at one point in time I did with this other man. Yah, like 20 years ago!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I agree with you guys. *I don't think anything has happened yet, but really, why do you go to another's woman apt. alone for drinks?? Not cool. *While your wife is at home slaving after your clean house and taking care of your kids. Bull****.

That is what many of us here on TAM thought. Nothing happened or we believe their story, "We only kissed", or "We only had a few drinks and joked". Then we find out the horrible truth. I am going to say that your husband more then likely has done the deed, I suspect more than once. If nothing happened physically and I mean sex, I would say that your husband would be one of the first ones here on TAM who did not and the reason you are here is that "your gut" is telling you more then you really want to admit.



*There isn't anything I can do*. I have made my point loud and clear. 

There is plenty that you can do but none of it will be pretty.

*I can't make him stop talking to her or seeing her.*

And that is one of the biggest red flags there is when someone is cheating. They will not end the relationship. Your husband is gaslighting you big time. He is blameshifting and the two of them are sticking to the same old story. It is right out of the cheater's handbook. 


We've been together for 17 years and have 3 awesome kids and an awesome home. I still look great at 43 and give him plenty of sex. *I don't know why he feels he needs her friendship?*

It really has little to do with you. He is in a "fog", of fantasy. He really has no more feelings for you, he has been smittened by her.


*And her husband has been gone for almost 4 years now and she still hasn't started dating. Why not??*

Because she has your husband.


What you need to do.

1. Get a VAR in his car.
2. Try to get his phone. I bet you will not be able to get it to look at it to see the messages.
3. Back off and snoop. The more you say to him the more difficult it will be to catch him and he will take it further underground.
4. Prepare yourself for the worse. I suspect big time that he is having sex with her.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So what do you want here? Do you WANT to snoop and find out how far things have already gone? Or do you want to put a stop to what you know that he IS doing for sure?

Either way you're going to have to act. You're going to have to DO stuff that you aren't going to like doing. Are you prepared for that?


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

Thorburn, you called it on the phone. He literally carries it close to his heart. Always with him. I was sitting behind him while watching TV and saw his password being punched. I can only check it when he is in the shower and leaves it in the dressing room. But sometimes he puts it on the ledge of the window in the shower so I can't 

So, now I have been checking their text messages. She keeps asking him how I am doing, but he ignores it and changes the subject. They mostly talk about her work or his martial arts training with my boys and my daughter's soccer games. I haven't seen anything inappropriate, but he could be deleting those messages. I used to be able to check AT&T website for the number of text messages and then compare to his phone, but once you set your iPhone to iMessages and the other person also has Iphone, those messages are not recorded on AT&T website.

I plan on keeping "slyly" quiet for now while I keep tab on things. If I ever find out that they slept together I will file for divorce and take EVERYTHING, I cannot condone that, esp. with someone who is supposedly been my friend since grade school! 

I am not speaking with her at all right now. I offered to come over to her place to "clear the air" and tell her my boundaries and how I feel. She flat out denied me over and said such an emotional discussion is unhealthy for her and that if I want to communicate with her I can do so via email! I'm appalled. If I were her friend she would hear me out. I still haven't written the letter as I am with rage with her right now, but plan on doing that soon.


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## canadiangirl (Apr 24, 2012)

My husband started an EA with my best friend of 10 years. Be very very careful.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

canadiangirl said:


> My husband started an EA with my best friend of 10 years. Be very very careful.


How did you get it to end? Are you still friends with the woman? Did your marriage survive?

I suspect my friend is jealous of me. I married young at 26 and was able to have 3 children. She married at 37 and was never able to get pregnant and then her husband passed. She likes to spend time with my kids and give them gifts. I think the EA started when her husband passed. If her husband were still alive I would not be here looking for advice and validation from others.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> I plan on keeping "slyly" quiet for now while I keep tab on things. If I ever find out that they slept together I will file for divorce and take EVERYTHING, I cannot condone that, esp. with someone who is supposedly been my friend since grade school!
> 
> I am not speaking with her at all right now. I offered to come over to her place to "clear the air" and tell her my boundaries and how I feel. She flat out denied me over and said such an emotional discussion is unhealthy for her and that if I want to communicate with her I can do so via email! I'm appalled. If I were her friend she would hear me out. I still haven't written the letter as I am with rage with her right now, but plan on doing that soon.


So you're bowing to her wishes for you to just email her???

Look, I know you don't want to hear this, but what you're dong is enabling them to just keep doing what they're doing, and to escalate things.

Tell your friend that you will be there at such and such a time and that you expect to talk with her in an adult manner about her relationship with your husband. If she still won't have it, then tell your husband that he either stops talking to her or he moves out. Seriously. Can't you see how badly they're manipulating you here?!?! DO NOT email her. That is a total waste of time.

How exactly do you plan on keeping tabs on things?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

This is very much up to you at this point. You demand 'no contact' be instituted at once or divorce is on the horizon. Your marriage is already deeply endangered by this. You have to be willing to lose it to save it. Tell him 'it's her or me.' He doesn't get to have a girlfriend when he's married to you.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> So you're bowing to her wishes for you to just email her???
> 
> Look, I know you don't want to hear this, but what you're dong is enabling them to just keep doing what they're doing, and to escalate things.
> 
> ...



You are right. Just need to get the courage to do it. I know it needs to be done. Ignoring her won't help. I can't believe someone you have known since you were 9 years old doesn't have the decency to respect your feelings...


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> How did you get it to end?


You cannot make someone stop cheating on you. You CAN choose not to live with it.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If the OW is your friend, perhaps she will help you if you speak to her about the problems. If she is truly trying to be a friend to your husband, she may not have realized how this is affecting you, and may become your ally. Do you think that's a possibility? 

If she dismisses you, you'll know where things truly stand between them.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it's more likely that they are using one another as confidantes and Maria is being dissected by the two of them as they talk about their various 'problems.' This makes the OW sympathetic to the WH and distances her from any loyalty she had to her friend. She is now loyal to the WH.

I wouldn't hesitate to let her know that she is now in homewrecker territory. Hope is right - you can't force them to stop, but you can choose not to live with it.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

That's what I thought, but she flat out denied me when I asked to come to her place to talk about it. She has DISMISSED the idea that there is anything going on between them. Since I confronted her she has made zero attempt to contact me to see how I am doing.

My therapist said its a waste of my time to contact her, let her contact me if she cares about me and what this is doing to my marriage. Basically, my therapist said to stop the sleuthing of checking their emails and that I have already made the point clear to both of them. He suggested I work on doing things that make me happy and in time I come to know whether or not anything is happening with the OW and I will know if I it is right for me to leave the marriage.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I think your therapist is asking you to fiddle while Rome burns. You can do that, of course. In my opinion, though, it's a better strategy to just honestly tell your H that his relationship with the OW is inappropriate, is hurting you and you want it to stop. If he doesn't care that he is hurting you and insists on continuing, then you walk.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

You need a new counsellor!!


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> My therapist said its a waste of my time to contact her, let her contact me if she cares about me and what this is doing to my marriage.


 This is sound



MariaSews said:


> Basically, my therapist said to stop the sleuthing of checking their emails and that I have already made the point clear to both of them.


 but this is NOT. Therapists always poo poo sleuthing, but most of them really are treading water when it comes to dealing with cheating, especially emotional affairs. You may have made your point clear, but you haven't DONE anything about it - so they're just thumbing their noses at you. An ultimatum will work wonders. You'll know exactly where you stand. As will sleuthing. The VAR, keylogger etc are all things counselors get horrified about, but they're proven time and time again here on TAM to be effective.



MariaSews said:


> He suggested I work on doing things that make me happy


 Excellent advice. Please go find the CWI Newbie thread and read up on the 180. Highly recommend it.



MariaSews said:


> and in time I come to know whether or not anything is happening with the OW and I will know if I it is right for me to leave the marriage.


 How are you going to 'come to know'?? Are you psychic? That's rubbish. You can't just sit around and wait for some kind of cosmic intervention. That's what you HAVE been doing, and you're nowhere.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Married but Happy said:


> If the OW is your friend, perhaps she will help you if you speak to her about the problems. If she is truly trying to be a friend to your husband, she may not have realized how this is affecting you, and may become your ally. Do you think that's a possibility?
> 
> If she dismisses you, you'll know where things truly stand between them.


This is not a friend!!!!!!! She stopped being a friend a long time ago. She is the OP's lover, whether it is an EA or a PA (I strongly suspect a PA).

The problem is not the woman it is 100% on the husband. 

Friends come and go. Friends can be replaced.

The OP needs to put the blame squarely on the husband. Let the OW go, stop engaging her. 

Send her an email if you wish but often times we look like stupid fools when we do this. 

I would start the 180. Let your husband go. Get things in order. Talk civil with him about bills and the kids but cold shoulder on everything else. Live your life in your house and ignore him for the most part.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Everyone here is convinced that their relationship is heading towards them having sex.

Everyone but me, that is. I think there's a good chance that their relationship will *not* become sexual.

But you know something? *That doesn't matter*.

Why? _*Because your husband's thoughtlessness and lack of respect for you and your feelings is killing your marriage all by itself, without there having to be a PA at all.*_


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Everyone here is convinced that their relationship is heading towards them having sex.
> 
> Everyone but me, that is. I think there's a good chance that their relationship will *not* become sexual.
> 
> ...


I have a different perspective. I think she's trying to take your spot in your family. Take your husband to replace hers and get your kids 50% of the time to make up for not having any of her own. I'd be willing to bet that if you divorce him they'll end up married in less than a year.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> I have a different perspective. I think she's trying to take your spot in your family. Take your husband to replace hers and get your kids 50% of the time to make up for not having any of her own. I'd be willing to bet that if you divorce him they'll end up married in less than a year.


Under *that* scenario, she will not let him have sex with her until after the divorce, in order that she does not 'hurt' her friend, or have to feel guilty.

"After all, we got together after they split, OK?"

The lies people tell themselves are sometimes absolutely *huge*!


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

This is so damn painful. I guess 17 years of marriage aren't enough for him to validate my concerns. I guess 35 years to your girlfriend don't mean enough to BACK off. If the OW would spend as much time as she does talking to my husband on looking for a new male in her life like going on match or plenty of fish she could find someone else to invite over to her place to have drinks. 

This is consuming me. It is eating me alive. I hate this. My wounds haven't even healed and he is inviting her to lunch. WTF. Like MattMatt said, even if nothing is going on, my feelings matter and if he loved me the way he says he does he would give complete RESPECT.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> This is so damn painful. I guess 17 years of marriage aren't enough for him to validate my concerns. I guess 35 years to your girlfriend don't mean enough to BACK off. If the OW would spend as much time as she does talking to my husband on looking for a new male in her life like going on match or plenty of fish she could find someone else to invite over to her place to have drinks.
> 
> This is consuming me. It is eating me alive. I hate this. My wounds haven't even healed and he is inviting her to lunch. WTF. Like MattMatt said, even if nothing is going on, my feelings matter and if he loved me the way he says he does he would give complete RESPECT.



I understand where your husband is. I had an EA and it all felt so good. I wasn't doing anything wrong no. I was in a fog that took some doing to break out of. Your husband is much further along than I was and he will need a real effort for him to break the addiction. It took me a long time to see and understand what I was doing was wrong. It will be harder for your husband. 

A couple of members, Sigma1299 and Entropy3000 were in similar positions and it is because their wives took control, faught and were willing to walk away that they were able to convince their husbands there was a problem. 

You need to read up on EAs, the 180 and start an action plan immediately to get you husband out of the fog. He is addicted to the OW and it is very strong. So you have to match his addiction with the biggest wake up call, his marriage. You need to be strong. You can do it.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

meson said:


> I understand where your husband is. I had an EA and it all felt so good. I wasn't doing anything wrong no. I was in a fog that took some doing to break out of. Your husband is much further along than I was and he will need a real effort for him to break the addiction. It took me a long time to see and understand what I was doing was wrong. It will be harder for your husband.
> 
> A couple of members, Sigma1299 and Entropy3000 were in similar positions and it is because their wives took control, faught and were willing to walk away that they were able to convince their husbands there was a problem.
> 
> You need to read up on EAs, the 180 and start an action plan immediately to get you husband out of the fog. He is addicted to the OW and it is very strong. So you have to match his addiction with the biggest wake up call, his marriage. You need to be strong. You can do it.


He tells me it is strictly platonic. Did you think what you were doing was strictly platonic? I truly believe he does not think he is harming us. But if it is consuming me than it IS harmful. I shouldn't have to feel this way. I shouldn't have to be checking his phone to see if he lying to me. Why he can't he be compassionate and loving to me instead of bitter and angry because I'm uncomfortable with his so-called platonic relationship.

I have got nothing but silent treatment all week and instead he said he tried REALLY hard all week. I invited him to on a date last Friday and he took the day off so we could go riding on his bike thru the canyon and have breakfast together. It was so nice even though he hardly said anything during the date. I also had secretly wished he was the one to instigate the date, but I have to keep being persistent. He hasn't offered any sex this week and said because he is turned off by my attitude.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

what's the 180? I have been reading up on emotional affairs quite a bit.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> what's the 180? I have been reading up on emotional affairs quite a bit.


The 180, and a whole bunch more good stuff, is in this thread

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I liked your posts because it sounds like you're getting mad, and that is a GOOD thing right now.

He's sure following the script - telling you it's because of YOUR attitude he isn't offering sex?!?! WTF.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> And her husband has been gone for almost 4 years now and she still hasn't started dating. Why not??


 She is dating. She is dating your husband. You do not need to have sex with someone to call it a date. A date is spending time with someone such that you get to know them better and have the opportunity to develop emotional feeling for each other.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Ask to have a meeting with your (former?) friend. Tell her, exactly, what her relationship with your husband is doing to you, to your children and to your marriage.

Tell (don't ask... _tell_!) her to back off.

And if she won't? CheaterVille :: Don't Be the Last to Know for her and for him.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> He tells me it is strictly platonic. Did you think what you were doing was strictly platonic? I truly believe he does not think he is harming us. But if it is consuming me than it IS harmful. I shouldn't have to feel this way. I shouldn't have to be checking his phone to see if he lying to me. Why he can't he be compassionate and loving to me instead of bitter and angry because I'm uncomfortable with his so-called platonic relationship.


 Emotional affairs (EA) are by definition platonic, but it is still cheating. In his vows he promised to let no one come between you, yet he is allowing her to come between you. He promised to put you before all others, yet he is putting her before you. He is confiding with her about his issues with you which is a betrayal of your confidence. She is helping and encouraging him to transfer his loyalty away from you, she is an enemy of the marriage. 

Let this be clear, he is in an EA. His actions are the text book actions of someone in an EA. He is in an EA fog and you cannot stand by and let it continue. Time is not on your side. Although many say to gather more evidence before acting, that is not always the right thing to do if your goal is to save your marriage. Many EA eventually turn into physical affairs (PA), and they often start when the spouse no longer wants to have sex with their spouse. If it has not turned into a PA affair yet, and a PA is a deal breaker for you, then you must act strongly prior to it becoming a PA.

As counter intuitive as is sounds, you must be truly willing to end the marriage in order have a marriage worth saving. Right now what you have is not worth saving, and it will only get worse if you do not take a stand. The sooner that you act the better are your odds long term, but you must recognize that it may already be too late. She may already have him. You must tell your husband that you do not care if he wants to recognize that he is in an inappropriate relationship with another woman, that as it stands now you do not want to be in a marraige where you are made to feel second to another women. Tell him that he must decide right now between her or you. Tell him that if he cannot decide on you right now, then that means that he did not pick you and that you will be contacting a divorce attorney. Tell him that him needing to think about it or not picking you, proves your point about it being inappropriate and that you are no longer his number one. Tell him that picking you means full no contact with the other women (OW), and full transpancy which includes sharing all passwords, not deleting anything without showing it to the other first, and access to each others cell phones without complaint. 

If he does not agree to this he will say that you pushed him away, but the truth is that he was willing to let you divorce him because push comes to shove he picked the OW. Better to know now than later. And do not be nice in the divorce, get a real a-hole divorce attorney. BTW, after you file and mean it, do not look back. When reality sets in, you can still change your mind and not divorce if he gives you good reason to change your mind, and this often happens once they realize that you mean business.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

TRy said:


> Emotional affairs (EA) are by definition platonic, but it is still cheating. In his vows he promised to let no one come between you, yet he is allowing her to come between you. He promised to put you before all others, yet he is putting her before you. He is confiding with her about his issues with you which is a betrayal of your confidence. She is helping and encouraging him to transfer his loyalty away from you, she is an enemy of the marriage.
> 
> Let this be clear, he is in an EA. His actions are the text book actions of someone in an EA. He is in an EA fog and you cannot stand by and let it continue. Time is not on your side. Although many say to gather more evidence before acting, that is not always the right thing to do if your goal is to save your marriage. Many EA eventually turn into physical affairs (PA), and they often start when the spouse no longer wants to have sex with their spouse. If it has not turned into a PA affair yet, and a PA is a deal breaker for you, then you must act strongly prior to it becoming a PA.
> 
> ...


Everything in your post makes TOTAL sense to me.:iagree:
One of the problems we have is financial, it wouldn't be easy for anyone to move out, which makes it very difficult. I have zero money and resources to do it. I would have to save up and plan ahead in the event I am "not the chosen one".

I was thinking of giving the ultimatum this way: choose me or else we will remain in a sexless marriage in which I am just here for the children and helping around the house with chores and finances until one of us has enough resources to move out. I don't want a bitter divorce. If it ever came to this I would simply leave and do a 50-50. It isn't worth it to to drag it on with bitter battles. I would just move on.


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

MariaSews said:


> They are still texting and calling each other. Basically, my feelings have been DISMISSED as they say nothing is going on between them they are just friends! Meanwhile, my marriage is going down the tubes and the husband blames me and says that I am pushing him away.


I feel for you MariaSews as all here do and you are getting sound advice imo. 
The number of times the WS betrays with the BS's 'best friend' is staggering. The sisterhood? Baloney! Your friend wants what you have and has no moral compass. She has already derailed your efforts to rescue your marriage. She is also refusing to break contact with WS. She is toxic. Friends like this know your spouse well but once they start confiding in secret it becomes an EA, ESPECIALLY if they talk about your marriage problems :nono:
Don't let WS persuade you that's its innocent. :bsflag: 
Nothing secret is ever innocent. The scene is set for a PA. And they already had "****tails" alone in her house, bringing alcohol into the equation??? Dangerous territory.
This happened to a friend of mine. Her "best friend" got divorced and was lonely so my friend used to invite her round etc. Later she discovered her "friend" and husband started an EA (secret texts, lunches etc) which progressed to PA. She divorced him and yes he moved in with her "best friend" as a poster here predicted might happen. Six months later he was back on BS's doorstep begging her to take him back. She didn't. 
You are in emotional turmoil but try to calmly study the advice here. 
Try not to let this thing drag on. They can - for years - mine still is. I wish I discovered TAM long ago. At last I'm doing things now I should have done years ago. 
The thought of being alone may frighten you but it may be a thousand times less painful than living with a spouse who is doing the opposite of loving you. His EA with this woman is more important to him than saving his marriage. 
He was silent on your date? And is he silent when he is talking to/texting her? 
And what of his children? How would they feel about their Dad, getting his kicks by hanging out with some woman while putting their darling Mum through hell? Maybe your kids are young but I think we all know how observant kids are no matter what age. He himself is like a spoilt kid throwing tantrums AND trying to put the blame back on you (typical) when he is told to get his hand out of the candy jar.
Perhaps give him the wakeup call that not only is he being cruel to you, he is also being cruel to his kids by setting up such a dynamic in your home. And what does the other woman think about your kids in all this because it's going to affect them big time either way. Maybe you can say that in a one-liner email to her, 
"BACK OFF! How DARE you cause havoc in my kids' precious family space".


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## JadedHusband (Aug 17, 2013)

Poor Maria...im sorry this is happening. The fact that he is being so selfish and flippent about your feelings is insulting. I do think there is such a thing as "just friends" but it takes the right two people and a lot of work and effort to ensure transparency. 

My absolute best friend from my teen years is a woman and when got older we decided to try each other out. That lasted about a month. We just didnt have that kind of chemistry even though shes gorgeous and im a fairly good looking guy. 

We didnt talk for a few years afterwards and I moved away. In the last couple years we have reconnected and we text almost daily. Even tho we were super close once before there are now self imposed boundaries in conversation. Mainly we dont discuss our marriages in a very personal manner. We've had intimate relations before and it wouldn't be proper to discuss anything like that. 

My wife is fine with it and her husband is ok with it but he is a bit less trusting than my wife. To show appreciation to our spouses for allowing us to remain good friends even tho we did date before we put in effort to keep them "in the loop" I tell my wife every time we talk and what we talk about. I make her read our text conversations from time to time. I never act secretive. 

I only ramble so much to illustrate that yes two people who have been together yet have a strong basis as friends can again be "just friends" but it takes some sensitivity. Your jerk husband isnt doing any of those things thus isn't worthy of trust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

**********, I hear you! I can't believe a friend of 35 years would not understand...sisterhood. She was there when we were teenagers, witnessing first kisses and first heartbreaks. But where is she now? She says to me I have nothing to worry about, nothing is happening. But I see her becoming an alcoholic after losing her husband and leaning on my spouse for support. She even loans him money when he can't get our budget right. Not appropriate. If she were my friend then she would understand where I am coming from and back off completely. She should be actively searching for men to date, not responding to my husbands emails or inviting him over for a drink.

I am only staying for my kids and the hope that he will see this as WRONG. I need to prepare for the worst. Need to start saving $ so I can get out if necessary.

It is so sad. We once were soulmates. But no more. If you can tell another woman you need therapy and not your wife, the soulmate status has left...

I read your story too, so sorry. I think he did cheat when on holiday in Europe. I hope you are able to find peace whatever happens.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

JadedHusband, thank you for your response. Its good to hear from a male perspective. You are smart to share with your wife your discussions with your female friend. My husband puts a pass lock on his phone and doesn't tell me anything unless I ask. He carries his phone around like a mother does with a newborn baby. That to me spells trouble. I leave my phone all over the house, I have nothing to hide. I wish he would realize what an ass he is being and show some compassion. I read his texts today and he invited her to lunch yesterday. Don't know if she reciprocated until I am able to check again. I'm tired of having to look, but feel if I don't, they will keep on going right under my nose and the worst will happen. This is NO way to live a happy marriage. Until he sees that we are doomed. I am miserable.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I don't agree with JadedHudbands ideal that these types of friendships can survive. I am not saying they can't I just have never seem one that has. My WW was having one of those or so I thought. She would tell me about their daily texts and even show me things that were said. I never became suspicious or doubted her. Come to find out she was only telling the safe part to me and had been sneaking around and being physical with the old BF. They had history and she said it was so easy to just start back up where they left off 10 + years ago. She was trying to do this with others as well. This is why I say that it can't work and there can't just be friends. I have read Glass's book, as has she after dday, and we both see the light. Maybe if your H won't talk to you, you can at least get him to read that book and get a new insight on the situation (I am betting he won't but might be worth at least suggesting). Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JadedHusband (Aug 17, 2013)

One other important detail... we live thousands of miles away from each other and havent seen each other in 12 yrs so that probably helps. 

Again it depends on the situation and the character of those involved. Cheaters may put up a good front in some areas but their full measure shows dysfunction. To be completely blindsided shows a willing niatvity on the BS part
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

JadedHusband, it wasn't a problem when they DID live thousands of miles apart, her in Hawaii and him in CA. It is when her husband tragically died and she moved back to CA close by us that is became a problem.


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## JadedHusband (Aug 17, 2013)

Aye...that is much more complicated. Maybe if they always included you it would feel alright but your feelings are the truest test of whats happening. You feel something is amiss and you are prolly right. If my friend lived near by we would have to completely reassess the situation. I think all visits would involve the spouses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

JadedHusband, they don't always include me. It pisses me off that he would even think it would be ok to go over to her place after work and think I am OK with that?? While they are relaxing and having a good time with a few drinks while I cook, clean and take care of kids?? So not cool. Another time he spent the night there when the fwy shut down and he was unable to get home. No, I did not sleep that night. It wouldve been more appropriate for him to either get a hotel or stay with a guy friend who also lives in her neighborhood. He asked me if was ok, I should have said NO. What an itiot I was.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

JadedHusband said:


> To be completely blindsided shows a willing niatvity on the BS part
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess that is your definition and explanation of it. I called it trust. When you have been with someone for several years and their attitudes, actions, and behavior doesn't change. (And this was an observation made by all, not just the BS) and they aren't acting suspicious or doing something different. They answer all your questions with answers that fit the situation and appear truthful. They have never strayed before or even indicated the ideal they would. How can trust in that situation be considered naive?? I think it is wrong to blame shift it to the BS. They trusted and that is what they are guilty of not being willingly naive. I would say if it happens a second time after an affair history exists than that would be willing naivety sneaking in. 

Also my WW was interacting with a BF thousands of miles away. If you think that distance is a factor in disproving an EA and proving its innocence then that is true willing naivety at work. It is so easy to sext, send nude pics, and web cam the acts that distance does nothing to disprove the relationship has not taken a turn for the worse and is nothing more than an innocent friendship. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NWCooper (Feb 19, 2013)

You've gotten some good advice here, and I don't have anything to add,but I have to comment about this part...

So you are not allowed to go over to YOUR longtime friend's house to discuss this problem, but only allowed to email her, and yet YOUR HUSBAND is invited over for drinks and to talk and lunches. This part right here is so messed up, I don't see how they could be telling you that there isn't a problem. That is seriously messed up!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm sure you know why she's not dating. Her emotional needs, at least, are being met by your husband. Don't expect loyalty from anyone involved in an emotional/physical affair.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

MariaSews said:


> And her husband has been gone for almost 4 years now and she still hasn't started dating. Why not??


She's dating your husband


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## awake1 (Jan 29, 2013)

As I've grown older, i've come to learn that married people, having very close friends of the opposite sex is almost always a bad idea. 

I cannot believe your husband went to her place to have drinks, alone? 

How close do you think they need to be before alcohol removes inhibition and they have sex? If they haven't already.

Protecting the phone is red flag #1. Any change in sexual habit is #2. 

Something is going on, whether there's a PA, or soon to be a PA. 

This woman is practically dangling herself out there for your husband to take advantage of.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

MariaSews said:


> Thorburn, you called it on the phone. He literally carries it close to his heart. Always with him. I was sitting behind him while watching TV and saw his password being punched. I can only check it when he is in the shower and leaves it in the dressing room.* But sometimes he puts it on the ledge of the window in the shower so I can't.*


The last bit is not consistent with "strictly platonic" or that he has nothing to hide from you. 

I think you're right, either your husband is a) deleting messages, or b) Using iMessage/ a chat app.

Borrowed from another thread:


Shaggy said:


> Go into settings->messages on her iphone. turn off using iMessage.
> 
> The other option btw is to configure another device to be using the same iTunes account and number as her phone, that second device will get all the iMessages too.
> 
> ...


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> He tells me it is strictly platonic. Did you think what you were doing was strictly platonic? I truly believe he does not think he is harming us. But if it is consuming me than it IS harmful. I shouldn't have to feel this way. I shouldn't have to be checking his phone to see if he lying to me. Why he can't he be compassionate and loving to me instead of bitter and angry because I'm uncomfortable with his so-called platonic relationship.
> 
> I have got nothing but silent treatment all week and instead he said he tried REALLY hard all week. I invited him to on a date last Friday and he took the day off so we could go riding on his bike thru the canyon and have breakfast together. It was so nice even though he hardly said anything during the date. I also had secretly wished he was the one to instigate the date, but I have to keep being persistent. He hasn't offered any sex this week and said because he is turned off by my attitude.


For me it was strictly platonic but the problem was that I was escalating contact to feed the high she gave. I think even despite my intentions it might have become out of control. Now I have much better boundaries and i have transparency with my wife. I didnt really see it as a problem for awhile either but I eventually did and took steps to deal with it.

It is super good that you had a date with him. Keeping the relationship strong is what you need. My relationship with my wife was strong at the time which helped me in the long run.


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## canadiangirl (Apr 24, 2012)

MariaSews said:


> How did you get it to end? Are you still friends with the woman? Did your marriage survive?
> 
> I suspect my friend is jealous of me. I married young at 26 and was able to have 3 children. She married at 37 and was never able to get pregnant and then her husband passed. She likes to spend time with my kids and give them gifts. I think the EA started when her husband passed. If her husband were still alive I would not be here looking for advice and validation from others.


Sorry it took so long to respond. I suspected something was building for about a year. I won't go into the evidence I had but needless to say they may it seem as though I was crazy. And, to be honest, I was going crazy. August of 2012 I found messages on his laptop. Nothing sexual but pages and pages oh iMessages that went to his laptop. Over a year of messages about whatever. I was pissed!!!! I asked them both nit to text each other as I know she and he were sharing stuff. But they had continued texting. So, when I found the messages, I printed them out and confronted her. She denied until I showed her evidence. We live in a small town (75k)...small small hockey circle. She panicked. I almost kicked the **** out of her. 

My husband came home and I confronted him. Meanwhile she was texting me all day that we needed to talk. I shot her down. I was done talking to that lying backstabbing beeotch. My husband was freaked out when I confronted him. I had begged him in the past to listen to the book his needs her needs. The next day he listened to it. He go home looking grey and sick. After listening to the first chapter about affair proofing your marriage, he saw what he and my BFF were doing. He told me he was surprised the kids and I were still at the house. He thought if then ask him to leave. He and BFF put me through he'll for a year. *******s. 

Fast forward a year. Marriage is 100% better. I see BFF at arenas. I'm not a *****. I won't sell her out. But we will never be friends. Friends don't do that. Plus, she knows I can kick the **** out of her.

Husband is fully transparent. Was since dday and still is. He knows there are no second chances. 

Life is better. 

Kick her ass!!


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## canadiangirl (Apr 24, 2012)

Sorry about the typos.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

In my personal opinion, staying in a dysfunctional marriage solely for the sake of the kids is doing no one any favors, including the kids. As long as you continue to put up with your husbands behavior, beg, plead, and pout you can expect absolutely nothing to change. Like someone else said you need to be willing to walk away from your marriage to save it. Actions and consequences speak a hell of a lot louder than words. Right now it doesn't sound like your husband has had to face any from you. He gets to keep his relationship with another woman, whatever it may be, and can expect you to be there as well. He's overdosing on cake. 

You need to give him an ultimatum, draw a line in the sand, and if he continues to cross it follow through with consequences. Do not make threats or give ultimatums you aren't willing to follow through on. Start getting whatever finances you can in order and start looking for divorce attorneys. Don't even bother talking to the friend from this point on as it should be quite apparent she is no friend at all. And when you do start making moves whether it's to take care of your finances, see a lawyer, file for separation/divorce or whatever do not tell him what you plan on doing before you do it. I notice a lot of BS do this and I'm not completely sure why but it does not help and in some cases can make what you're trying to do more difficult.

As for the 180: SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for Those Affected by Infidelity

Scroll down to #11. And keep in mind the 180 is NOT to get your husband back, it's to help you start the process of moving on. Sometimes these changes can get a WS to want to hold onto a marriage when they see the BS is moving on, but that's not always the case.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

If he rejects your boundaires you file for divorce and in the same day put his stuf in garbage bags, drive to OWs and throw it at her porch, then ring the bell and congrat her for succeeding in becoming a homewrecker.

You need avoid to appear as a nutjob towards your husband but very firm about what you are going to tolerate and what not. You need to follow through, to match your words with actions.


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## canadiangirl (Apr 24, 2012)

Acabado said:


> If he rejects your boundaires you file for divorce and in the same day put his stuf in garbage bags, drive to OWs and throw it at her porch, then ring the bell and congrat her for succeeding in becoming a homewrecker.
> 
> You need avoid to appear as a nutjob towards your husband but very firm about what you are going to tolerate and what not. You need to follow through, to match your words with actions.


When you know for sure, then you won't appear like a nut job. I was amazed on how calm and lucid I felt. I now knew FOR SURE. I had hard evidence, not just random texts here and there. 

All of the advice you receive on this forum is from experience. It will really help you. It helped me tremendously. 

Read through the threads. This place was a Godsend to me. One poster in particular (BFF's...I'm sure many of you can relate) gave me so much strength. 

Be strong. 

canadiangirl


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## Mrsmartian (Aug 21, 2013)

Maria, your friend is in love with your husband. She doesn't need you anymore. In fact, she resents your very existence. She wants what you have. He is protecting her from you. THEY consider YOU the bad guy here. This went beyond platonic friendship a long time ago. Now just talking to her will cause him to rush to protect her even more. There does NOT have to be sex. She probably sees herself as honorable waiting for him. It's romantic!
If you want to beat her. Follow the advice of these much wiser people, than I. 
I'm so sorry this has happened.


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## pepsi1967 (Aug 15, 2013)

...what if you do what TRy said and he responds with hesitation, and "your not the chosen one" ....me personally, I would kick him out. he will most likely move in with OW. Sometimes the fantasy dies when there is no "sneaking around" or "build up" to possible affair that may get started. 

Force the hand as they say. Money for all of us is a factor. 
Show him you mean business, child support is not a joke but an eye opener. 
No loyalty, No sex, No WAY! show him the door, he'll figure out the rest for himself.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> Tell him he either reads this book or moves out
> 
> Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"


:iagree:


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Try canadian girls tactic. Get HNHN on cd an ask him to listen to it on his way to work. Maybe you can download it and burn it on a cd with your computer.

If you both have iphones, you can set it up to receive his ims to your phone or other apple device. The instructions are in the coping with infidelity section, Badbanes thread for one I think.


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## MrMathias (Nov 19, 2012)

MariaSews said:


> He made an appt with a therapist but didn't tell me he was struggling and was going for help. I found out the day he went for his first appt when I questioned why he couldn't help me pick up a kid from soccer practice. I guess I "dragged" it out of him. I later learned they texted for an hour after his appt and he never bothered to call and let me know how it went and instead said his therapist said he doesn't have to discuss his therapy appt.s with me.


I haven't read every post so I don't know if this has been addressed, if so I apologize. While it's my opinion that he 'doesn't have to discuss therapy appointments' with you (the content of the session), I think he needs to tell you if he *has* an appointment. You're his spouse!!! He's either misunderstanding what the therapist said or choosing to interpret it so that he and OW have a shared exclusive experience.

And he certainly shouldn't be discussing therapy issues with OW *instead* of you- anyone with experience in the infidelity arena can see where that path leads. I can't imagine any therapist suggesting that a client share the session with an opposite sex, outside the family, outside the marriage.

Take it from me you can't count on a cheater in an EA or PA to read 'Not...Just Friends' and suddenly pull their head out. They're high on attention, they think their AP is the cat's meow and the only person that understands them. Decisive action on your part is the key.


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## canadiangirl (Apr 24, 2012)

Here's the thing. You mentioned that when you confronted them they were offended and defensive even. A true friend who has on,y pure intentions would not be offended or defensive. They would feel awful and horrible that you feel this way. They would immediately respect your feelings and feel even ashamed that they put you through this. A true friend would respect your requests by backing off. Same goes with your husband, who SHOULD be your best friend. 

The fact that they are defensive and even annoyed is a HUGE sign. 

Go with you gut, girl friend. 

Trust your intuition.


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

Every year, my company makes every one of their employees attend an ethics refresher training. One of the main topics is "conflict of interest." We are instructed that it is not enough to avoid such a conflict, but just as important to prevent even the APPEARANCE of a conflict. I think that is a very good policy and one that applies to many situations in marriage.

I am a firm believer that someone in a committed, LTR has no business having close friends of the opposite sex. Even if there truly is nothing going on, the mere appearance of an inappropriate relationship is enough to cause serious problems in a marriage. I would not tolerate it and made this clear to my wife early in our dating timeline. She agreed wholeheartedly. I ended several female friendships when my wife and I got serious. It was a no brainier. 

If you want a successful marriage, leave room in your life for only one person of the opposite sex - your spouse. Outside of a parent or sibling, your wife/husband should be the only person you spend time alone with, share your secrets and dreams, build emotional bonds, etc. and they should always come first before even a parent. 

What exactly can a female friend offer a man that a male friend can't? There's only one thing and it rhymes with Tex. It seems as though fewer and fewer people understand the nature of commitment and that sacrifices are involved. If one is not prepared to make such sacrifices they probably should not enter a serious, committed relationship.

Your husband is a coward. He wants this other woman but can't muster the courage to come clean to you. As has already been stated, you will have to take action. It will be scary. It may be the end of your marriage or it may save it. Continuing on this course and being a doormat will result in your being unhappy and the marriage may end anyway once their relationship progresses far enough and she demands that he leave you for her. Even if they end their relationship of their own accord, the damage will already have been done to your marriage. How will you ever trust him or feel emotional intimacy with a man who so callously ignored your feelings?

I also echo that you should not be so focused on the woman. Your husband's betrayal is far more important that hers. He should be the one to end this inappropriate relationship. He is the one that made a lifelong commitment to you, not her. She's not helping things and certainly no friend to you, but she is merely the catalyst that exposed a character flaw in your husband. 

I hope that you can summon the strength to make a stand. His actions at their most innocent translation surely give the appearance of infidelity. If he refuses to do the right thing, it really doesn't matter if they have been physical or not.n he has chosen her over you. No point in continuing to run the race after she has crossed the finish line.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

I think she is refusing to see you in person because it is souch harder to lie to someone's face. Someone that has known you for 35 yrs can likely discern fact from fiction, and she doesn't want to give into your intuition. She wants to have the time to choose her words carefully so that she can spin them in a manner that makes her feel like she isn't lying. 

In essence she is as much of a cake eater as your WH... She wants to keep you both and continue living in this miserable triangle. 

Would she be willing to go to your IC with you?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

How sure are you that her husband is dead?

I have heard of a case when someone told everyone there spouse had died. But they had not died. You might have independent verification of his demise.

If so, how did he die?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

As her best friend for 31 years, she probably went to the funeral.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

Update.

So, after a few days of barely speaking to each other he wants to talk. We stayed up through the night talking about this issue. I asked the friendship to stop cold turkey. If they want to talk or hang out, then I must be invited. No phone calls, no texts, no going to meet for lunch or anything. He agreed. Showed me even the questionable texts, since he SAVES everything. I told him I'm not really interested in continuing my friendship at this time, I'm just too uncomfortable. He understood. I got a very sincere apology. Being with someone for 17 years I know when he is sincere and I can say I felt it. Said he was very, very sorry about letting her know about his therapy and realized it was crossing the line. He promised not to share those kinds of details with someone else again. I told him I had no problem with him sharing that stuff with his guy friends, which he has some very close ones.

Will continue to closely monitor things, but things feel good right now. I appreciate all the support out there. Thanks for all the input given.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> Update.
> 
> So, after a few days of barely speaking to each other he wants to talk. We stayed up through the night talking about this issue. I asked the friendship to stop cold turkey. *If they want to talk or hang out, then I must be invited. *No phone calls, no texts, no going to meet for lunch or anything. He agreed. Showed me even the questionable texts, since he SAVES everything.* I told him I'm not really interested in continuing my friendship at this time, I'm just too uncomfortable.* He understood. I got a very sincere apology. Being with someone for 17 years I know when he is sincere and I can say I felt it. Said he was very, very sorry about letting her know about his therapy and realized it was crossing the line. He promised not to share those kinds of details with someone else again. I told him I had no problem with him sharing that stuff with his guy friends, which he has some very close ones.
> 
> Will continue to closely monitor things, but things feel good right now. I appreciate all the support out there. Thanks for all the input given.


I don't see how the statements above can prevail at the same time.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

NextTimeAround, they won't. I told him I'm not comfortable with the friendship at this time. If I decide to be friendly and WE want to spend time with the OW, then it has to be on my terms and all 3 of us must be present. I can see I wasn't clear on that...


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> I don't see how the statements above can prevail at the same time.


Replace "at this time" with "maybe later." That's how I read it, but see why it seemed concurrent.


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## canadiangirl (Apr 24, 2012)

MariaSews said:


> NextTimeAround, they won't. I told him I'm not comfortable with the friendship at this time. If I decide to be friendly and WE want to spend time with the OW, then it has to be on my terms and all 3 of us must be present. I can see I wasn't clear on that...


Wow. Almost exactly what happened to me. By February 2012, I demanded the same thing. All contact had to be via me by then, I had caught my BFF texting dh things that I confided to her. She texted him within hours of me telling her. So I demanded all texting stop between the two of them. My demands were met for a week. By mid February, the texting began full force.

She had come to my house while I was sleeping to hang out with my husband, hung out at my husbands friends house while husband was there again without my knowledge, gone in my hot tub with husband and his friend while I was sleeping, gone out drinking...

But, oooooh no. Nothing was going on. I must be crazy, right?

I'm telling you, forget the BFF. Three people do not make a marriage. 

She is not a friend to your marriage. She is coming between you and your husband. So much so, you felt the need to post in this forum!!!

Mariasews, I hate to tell you, their "friendship" has not stopped. It's probably just gone underground. That's what happened to me.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

canadiangirl said:


> Wow. Almost exactly what happened to me. By February 2012, I demanded the same thing. All contact had to be via me by then, I had caught my BFF texting dh things that I confided to her. She texted him within hours of me telling her. So I demanded all texting stop between the two of them. My demands were met for a week. By mid February, the texting began full force.
> 
> She had come to my house while I was sleeping to hang out with my husband, hung out at my husbands friends house while husband was there again without my knowledge, gone in my hot tub with husband and his friend while I was sleeping, gone out drinking...
> 
> ...


:iagree:

A best friend who is texting their friend's spouse behind their back, knowing full well that it is causing problems, is no friend at all and needs to be shown the door.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> A best friend who is texting their friend's spouse behind their back, knowing full well that it is causing problems, is no friend at all and needs to be shown the door.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Mrsmartian (Aug 21, 2013)

Wonder why he suddenly changed his attitude and wanted to talk? Now he's agreeing with you and you've gone from throwing wild, hurtful accusations, to actually quite sensible and rightly indignant? 
What could have changed? Let me put it this way, if silent treatment and an ominous atmosphere works this well in changing peoples attitude. Then this forum would be empty and we'd all live happily ever after.
I think there's more to his sudden willingness to talk. I really hope it is genuine rather than they've decided together to keep you sweet.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm glad that you feel that you made progress.

Now, put some checks in place to try to determine if it's gone underground. That is the next likely move in the script that your H is reading from.

I will keep my fingers crossed for you that he is actually sincere.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Any woman who tries to muscle in on my relationship with my SO will never have a place in my life..... wether that "friend" comes from my side or his side. 

Maria, I would do a 180 on your husband but be swett and detached when interacting over the children. Do as much snooping as you can to unearth as close to the truth as possible.

As one person here put it, if you decide to reconcile and forgive, you should at least know what you are forgiving.

I think it's necessary to know as much about their relationship as possible. In my situation, I didn't like the way my fiance liked taking potshots at me as if his EA held the moral high ground. 

For example, I did a google search based on her e-mail address and turned up quite a bit of info based on her social media profiles. he called me psycho and creepy as a result..... until I reminded that, based on the e-mails and text messages between then, she was inquiring about our sex life...... now how psycho and creepy is that? and to up the ante, I reminded him that at least she puts out there on social media sites, she knows that people shoe doesn't know and will never meet will see it. What went on between us I had not signed a release on......

I think this is important. As WS is on the phase of letting go, I think it helps to be able to point out that their AP was not perfect and has nothing on you.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I'm glad that you feel that you made progress.
> 
> Now, put some checks in place to try to determine if it's gone underground. That is the next likely move in the script that your H is reading from.
> 
> I will keep my fingers crossed for you that he is actually sincere.


:iagree:

Dear MariaSews,

There is a "script" that almost all cheaters follow. In cases such as yours, it involves the WS "agreeing" to end the EA or PA and then taking it underground. Rarely does a WS suddenly "see the light" unless confronted with the intention/willingness of the BH to end the marriage (which apparently you haven't done). And, even then, in a large percentage of cases, the A continues in some form.

So, please, do not drop your guard and do not let your WH rugsweep this. What he did was have an EA (at least) with your former BFF. Both of you need to understand this and deal with it as such. This means total transparency on his part, showing true remorse, doing whatever you need him to do to fix it and, if you can find a good one (one that won't let him justify his cheating), MC.

Finally, I would strongly advise that you insist that he send her a NC letter and that you to tell him that, if he breaks his word not to contact her again, you will divorce him.

Your WH has cheated on you, maybe not physically (although IMO this has likely happened) but he has cheated none the less. Give him a chance to make it right, but only one chance, and let him know that, next time he screws up, he is history.

Wishing you the best.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> A best friend who is texting their friend's spouse behind their back, knowing full well that it is causing problems, is no friend at all and needs to be shown the door.
> 
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MariaSews said:


> Update.
> 
> So, after a few days of barely speaking to each other he wants to talk. We stayed up through the night talking about this issue. I asked the friendship to stop cold turkey. If they want to talk or hang out, then I must be invited. No phone calls, no texts, no going to meet for lunch or anything. He agreed. Showed me even the questionable texts, since he SAVES everything. I told him I'm not really interested in continuing my friendship at this time, I'm just too uncomfortable. He understood. I got a very sincere apology. Being with someone for 17 years I know when he is sincere and I can say I felt it. Said he was very, very sorry about letting her know about his therapy and realized it was crossing the line. He promised not to share those kinds of details with someone else again. I told him I had no problem with him sharing that stuff with his guy friends, which he has some very close ones.
> 
> Will continue to closely monitor things, but things feel good right now. I appreciate all the support out there. Thanks for all the input given.


*Trust, but verify.*


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## pepsi1967 (Aug 15, 2013)

good for you....i'm hoping for the best but am going to encourage you as needed...stay strong, stay sharp!


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

carmen ohio said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Dear MariaSews,
> 
> There is a "script" that almost all cheaters follow. In cases such as yours, it involves the WS "agreeing" to end the EA or PA and then taking it underground. Rarely does a WS suddenly "see the light" unless confronted with the intention/willingness of the BH to end the marriage (which apparently you haven't done). And, even then, in a large percentage of cases, the A continues in some form.


Yep. 

Obviously, all spouses are not the same, but it is scary how all of them appear to have the same script. Sooner or later, someone will pop in and say everyone is bitter. That isn't bitter, that is seeing all of the similarities and trying to help someone save their marriage. 

My wife quit cold Turkey, but didn't get it either. Tell you what, I thought my situation was unique and in some cases I was right. 

Still, the general things were the same:
My wife argued that she didn't do anything wrong.
They were just friends.
I was overreacting.
She thought I'd be mad.

At one point, she "accidentally" put his number at a different name. . Seriously, her saving grace was she never hid the phone. He may be honest, but I'd ask for all passwords and monitor everything.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I would still do the VAR in his car and continue to check on him. As was mentioned he may have just taken the thing underground. Yes we tend to be a skeptical lot here on TAM, but we tend to have been burnt by lies and deceit. 

Follow your gut. IF you think your husband has seen the light then good. I would want verification.

I put the VAR in my wife's car two Friday's ago and she did exactly what she told me she did, she even mentioned that a guy helped her put dog food in her car. That was all recorded. I had a lot of anxiety that day as she was doing sub work near the XOM's home, so it involved hours of travel. Time that she in the past would use to hook up with him. So it was to my relief that nothing happened and that her claims of it being over seems to be true and I was able to verify it (at least on that day). My gut is telling me it is over and I just need validation from time to time.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

So I got burned again. Should have known better. After we had such a wonderful emotional heart to heart talk, he broke his agreement with me and within less than 24 hours!. Checked his cell phone and sure enough there were a few text messages exchanged between the two and ALL innocent. But, I asked him if he had spoken to her and he lied and said NO he hadn't. If it is so innocent, why the lie? 

So, I took the advice of many of you. Told him I didn't care for the disrespect and lie, even if the conversation was innocent. The fact is I don't approve of their friendship. I'm the wife here, not a second fiddle. I told him I plan on moving out when I have my stuff together (finances) because I can't possibly stay married to someone who refuses to meet my needs.

His reaction was pretty ****ty. "I think you are making a mistake." That's it?? WTF. Unbelievable. 

It doesn't matter how innocent they claim they are, the fact is their friendship makes me UNCOMFORTABLE. As my husband he should respect that. Claims I'm trying to control his friends and what not and I'm taking away his LAST friend that he has.

Don't even want to check anymore, don't care. I'm ready to move on. This is going to kill my kids and I'm going to feel terrible. THis is not how I envisioned things would be. Devastated.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

He reacted that way because he doesn't think you'll follow through. And because he's a cheater and a scumbag and intends to just keep doing what he's been doing.

Any reason you haven't kicked him to the curb?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Now you need to follow through. He's in an A and hasn't broken out of it. He needs to see what his life will really look like without you at this point. It might wake him up. Maybe not, but in any case, you have a right to know.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

MariaSews said:


> It doesn't matter how innocent they claim they are, the fact is their friendship makes me UNCOMFORTABLE. As my husband he should respect that.


This is obvious to anyone who is not in an affair.



> Claims I'm trying to control his friends and what not and I'm taking away his LAST friend that he has.


He sounds like a whiny teenager. Pathetic.

Have you exposed the affair, MariaSews?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> He reacted that way because he doesn't think you'll follow through. And because he's a cheater and a scumbag and intends to just keep doing what he's been doing.
> 
> Any reason you haven't kicked him to the curb?


Unfortunately as much as everyone likes to play the big bad bully "kicking people to the curb". It is not a reality. The house is marital property and one just can't do that. They police will be called and the spouse will be let back in one way or the other (through nicety, or the police will arrest the spouse that is fighting allowing them back). The only situation where this can happen is if the couple are living in someone else's house and that person then has the right to ask them to leave (not so if they are paying rent though), or in cases of domestic violence and a RO is obtained. Otherwise, forcing someone out is not possible. Might as well face that fact and leave yourself. 

I wish this prevailing view on TAM that if your spouse is cheating and continuing to do it, you can just throw them out, gather all their things and place at the curb and change the locks would go away. It sucks but the WS has the law on their side when it comes to this point.

I feel sorry for the OP and wish her the best.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> Unfortunately as much as everyone likes to play the big bad bully "kicking people to the curb". It is not a reality. The house is marital property and one just can't do that. They police will be called and the spouse will be let back in one way or the other (through nicety, or the police will arrest the spouse that is fighting allowing them back). The only situation where this can happen is if the couple are living in someone else's house and that person then has the right to ask them to leave (not so if they are paying rent though), or in cases of domestic violence and a RO is obtained. Otherwise, forcing someone out is not possible. Might as well face that fact and leave yourself.
> 
> I wish this prevailing view on TAM that if your spouse is cheating and continuing to do it, you can just throw them out, gather all their things and place at the curb and change the locks would go away. It sucks but the WS has the law on their side when it comes to this point.
> 
> I feel sorry for the OP and wish her the best.


Really? I did so myself on D day. Kicked hubby right out and he went. I suppose if he'd raised a stink you're correct, I couldn't have forced him, but that's no reason not to try. It sends a message if nothing else - that you aren't going to stand for their shenanigans and you aren't going to be the one to leave. Why should the person who has done nothing wrong be the one to leave??


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Not to mention that their reaction to being kicked out will speak volumes about their intention to R. If they DO raise a stink and call the cops etc the WS knows they have no intention of following through with a true R, because they don't think they've done anything wrong. A WS who is willing to admit fault and move out because it's what the BS needs and demands is a WS that there's hope for.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I insist in my previous recomendation: Put his stuff an garbage bags and drop it in OW's yard and serve him the same day.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> I can't possibly stay married to someone who refuses to meet my needs.
> 
> His reaction was pretty ****ty. "I think you are making a mistake." That's it?? WTF. Unbelievable.


 You gave him a choice, her or you, and he did not pick you. Thus he confirmed that his relationship to you is in fact second to his relationship to her. If his relationship with her was innocent as he claims, in would not be so important to him that he would be willing to end his marraige over keeping it. Although he will try to blame you for the end of the marriage, do not buy into this. The marraige was coming to an end and all that you did was recognize what was going on, and avoid future humiliation. 

Tell all of your family and friends right now about his cheating. Tell them that given the choice between ending it with the "other women" and the marriage, he picked her. Tell them that no matter how much he tries to lie about it being innocent, when he starts openly dating her, which he will, the truth of his lies will be know.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> Not to mention that their reaction to being kicked out will speak volumes about their intention to R. If they DO raise a stink and call the cops etc the WS knows they have no intention of following through with a true R, because they don't think they've done anything wrong. A WS who is willing to admit fault and move out because it's what the BS needs and demands is a WS that there's hope for.



This is not always so black and white. I am glad that it worked the way you wanted it to, but it would never go that way for most. For them to leave and stay gone is their CHOICE, no matter how in charge of that situation you feel you are. Also, anyone that has talked to a lawyer will find out that generally leaving (whether it was being "kicked" out or their choice, they are both viewed the same for the next little bit) without correct documentation in place can be considered abandonment. Meaning that they could lose custody of their children and the rights to any proceeds from the sale of the house or any claim to the house.

Lots of WS that are kicked out, actually want that to happen. This way they can go be with the AP and have no guilt over the situation. When asked they will gladly state that they were kicked out and place all the blame on the BS, so the BS looks like the bad guy in this whole fiasco. They will tell the kids that they would love to come home, but the BS "kicked" them out and they didn't deserve it. It just plays into their hand and they wanted it that way in the first place, which is why I say that the BS never really "kicks"them out. If they were to go to the cops, they wouldn't be viewed well by the BS, but any one that learns of the situation and how they have a right to the house just as much as the BS, would side with them on law principle only (despises them for the betrayal, but now looking down on the BS for being so cruel). People whom haven't gone through the betrayal, don't realize how hurtful it just is and usually view things for the basics on them and without emotion.

I am glad you WS left at your insisting, but they didn't have to if they didn't want to, so you didn't really "kick" them out.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

He pays for everything. I don't have a job, I don't have resources and I don't even have a place to go, not to mention the devastation this is going to have on my children. I need time to get my things together and least I can see my kids everyday while I do that. I will not resort to the level of throwing him out and acting like a selfish teenager as he is doing. I just want to be here for my kids for now. The day will come when I have the resources to move out, I can be patient.

I don't want to stay here. The house is well out of my means. If I made him leave there is no way I could afford to pay for it, nor would he have enough to support himself and keep the house going at the same time. If I left and didn't ask for anything, he could keep the house and the kids could stay here, the only place they have ever known. Revenge wouldn't make me feel any better. Moving on and being with someone who respects my needs as a human being is better than revenge.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

Someone asked if I exposed it. Not really. Wouldn't make me feel any better. My mother called this morning and of course I "cried" on her shoulder. So, she now knows. Two of my close friends do know what is going on as well, but we don't publicly discuss this. His parents are both deceased and he has some family he sometimes talks to, not sure if they know anything and I don't know if he talks about this to any of his friends.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

MariaSews said:


> He pays for everything. I don't have a job, I don't have resources and I don't even have a place to go, not to mention the devastation this is going to have on my children. I need time to get my things together and least I can see my kids everyday while I do that. I will not resort to the level of throwing him out and acting like a selfish teenager as he is doing. I just want to be here for my kids for now. The day will come when I have the resources to move out, I can be patient.
> 
> I don't want to stay here. The house is well out of my means. If I made him leave there is no way I could afford to pay for it, nor would he have enough to support himself and keep the house going at the same time. If I left and didn't ask for anything, he could keep the house and the kids could stay here, the only place they have ever known. Revenge wouldn't make me feel any better. Moving on and being with someone who respects my needs as a human being is better than revenge.


Your means should be the same as his after the divorce. Get a consultation with several lawyers, pick one and file for divorce. Also file for interim child support and spousal support and have the lawyer set it up so your husband pays the fees. Just because he's the bread winner doesn't mean you have no resources.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You are not trapped financially if you pursue some legal action. Go talk to a lawyer. You will see that you have options.

For your own health and sanity, start doing the 180 with him:

SurvivingInfidelity.com - Support for Those Affected by Infidelity


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

MariaSews said:


> He pays for everything. I don't have a job, I don't have resources and I don't even have a place to go, not to mention the devastation this is going to have on my children. I need time to get my things together and least I can see my kids everyday while I do that. I will not resort to the level of throwing him out and acting like a selfish teenager as he is doing. I just want to be here for my kids for now. The day will come when I have the resources to move out, I can be patient.
> 
> I don't want to stay here. The house is well out of my means. If I made him leave there is no way I could afford to pay for it, nor would he have enough to support himself and keep the house going at the same time. If I left and didn't ask for anything, he could keep the house and the kids could stay here, the only place they have ever known. Revenge wouldn't make me feel any better. Moving on and being with someone who respects my needs as a human being is better than revenge.


Dear MariaSews,

Before you make any decisions about how to deal with your WH's continuing affair, speak to a qualified attorney about your rights if you divorce him.

I don't recall if you've said where you live but, from the way you write, I presume you are American. The divorce laws in the U.S. are generally favorable from a SAHW's POV. Basically, he will end up owing you child support and alimony (for a period of time). In addition, you are entitled to half of the marital assets. You are allowed to spend some of your family savings for a lawyer and your WH must continue to support you and your children while a divorce is pending.

Thus, unless the two of you are broke and he is unemployed, you should have the financial means to hire a good attorney who can then help you secure your financial future.

Finally, definitely speak to a lawyer before moving out of your home because, in some states, this could be construed as "abandonment" and negatively affect your rights in a divorce.

Don't lose hope and don't give up. Get the professional help you need and you will be fine. You may even be surprised how remorseful your WH becomes once he understands what a divorce is going to cost him, emotionally, financially and in terms of time with his kids.

Stay strong.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Your WS gets to pay for everything! If he tries not to, lawyers will make him think otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Your WS gets to pay for everything! If he tries not to, lawyers will make him think otherwise.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



MattMatt, isn't it past your bedtime?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MariaSews said:


> He pays for everything. I don't have a job, I don't have resources and I don't even have a place to go, not to mention the devastation this is going to have on my children. I need time to get my things together and least I can see my kids everyday while I do that. I will not resort to the level of throwing him out and acting like a selfish teenager as he is doing. I just want to be here for my kids for now. The day will come when I have the resources to move out, I can be patient.


 Your statement shows that you have not spoken to a lawyer. Right now divorce laws strongly favors you as the stay at home spouse, and is in fact downright unfair to the working spouse. Amazingly this would be true even if you were the one that was cheating. You are talking to your husband under a position of weakness, with him talking from a false sense of strength. You need to see an attorney right now so that you can get matters correctly stated to him.



MariaSews said:


> I don't want to stay here. The house is well out of my means. If I made him leave there is no way I could afford to pay for it, nor would he have enough to support himself and keep the house going at the same time. If I left and didn't ask for anything, he could keep the house and the kids could stay here, the only place they have ever known. Revenge wouldn't make me feel any better. Moving on and being with someone who respects my needs as a human being is better than revenge.


 If the house is within his means, then it is within yours. You can get the house and the children in the divorce. He and his affair partner can be the ones living in the apartment as he get to be the part time parent. If you let him off easy in the divorce, his affair partner will be thankful that you let her just walk in and take everything from you. Just because she wants your life, does not mean that you should give it to her.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I would not move out, nor ask him to leave at this point. Don't mess with his stuff other then move it into another room in the house.

I would start the 180, 

Prepare for the worse. Start looking for a job. You will not get alimony for long. I want you to hear this. You will not get alimony for long. Most courts expect the wife (in your case) to get a job. I don't care what anyone tells you. You will not get long term alimony. Let that sit in. Your financial situation is not good, I understand, been there and I am the main bread winner. My wife was the one who was going to lose and she was expecting alimony for ever. i let her think that. She found out through a friend that what she thought she would get (long term alimony) was not going to happen. The only thing she could count on long term was my military retirement and that is several years off.

While you are going through hel* right now, start developing a plan. No matter how bleak the future looks, and it looks bleak, remember others have gone through this and worse. Your economic future will stink for the near future but you will make it. Mean while stay put, don't do anything rash. 

Many attorneys will give you a free hour consulatation. I got almost all I needed to know for free.

Telling you that your husband is an arse really does nothing for you but he is an arse.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

Maria the time has come to seek legal help. Knowledge IS power and right now your scared because you feel so betrayed and powerless. So take back your power, find out your rights and work out a plan A and plan B.... if nothing else it will give you a focus.

Your husband wants to eat cake as they say. He knows how much his relationship with her is devastating you and damaging your marriage..... yet he carries on.... his ambivalence is clear.

You need to get in control of the steering wheel for yourself and your children. Your husband isn't thinking of anyone but himself and the OW at the moment. 

You can do this... with a lawyer, your family and friends and the crew at TAM... you CAN do this.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> You will not get alimony for long. I want you to hear this. You will not get alimony for long. Most courts expect the wife (in your case) to get a job. I don't care what anyone tells you. You will not get long term alimony.


 Without knowing the state that she lives in, you cannot make such a statement. Many Americans live it states where if you have been married for a set minimum number of years (10 to 15 years), you are entitled to lifetime alimony based on the difference between your expected lifetime earning power and that of your spouses; the OP has been married for 17 years, so lifetime alimony is a no brainer in such states. If you are not working now and have young children, you may not be required to get a job right away, so she should not get a job without talking to an attorney first, as she would literally be working so that the husband has more money to spend on his affair partner.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

TRy said:


> Without knowing the state that she lives in, you cannot make such a statement. Many Americans live it states where if you have been married for a set minimum number of years (10 to 15 years), you are entitled to lifetime alimony based on the difference between your expected lifetime earning power and that of your spouses; the OP has been married for 17 years, so lifetime alimony is a no brainer in such states. If you are not working now and have young children, you may not be required to get a job right away, so she should not get a job without talking to an attorney first, as she would literally be working so that the husband has more money to spend on his affair partner.


Really???? The fact of the matter is that the majority of states have eliminated lifetime or what is called pernament alimony in that the law prohibit it in the majority of states. Most states will give rehabilitative alimony and that is relatively short term.

I agree that the OP should seek out legal counsel, but the days of permanent alimony are almost gone. 

Permanent alimony is rare. If you don't believe me then look it up. I was married almost 30 years and my wife would have gotten alimony for a relative short period of time. Her adultery would not been much of a factor other then for spousal support, which in my case I would have brought her adultery into play. All that means is that I would not have paid her anything during the time I filed for D and until the time the D was finalized. After that, I would have paid her alimony for about 6 months to a year at the most.

Again, do your own research and seek legal advice, but long term alimony is for the most part a myth, is relatively rare, and is no longer a given.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

PLEASE! DO NOT MOVE OUT!

You have been given great advice. SEE a LAWYER NOW! If you are in the US you can generally have an initial consultation for nothing. Take whatever money you can and file. NEVER leave your home in these circumstances.

Good luck


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> MattMatt, isn't it past your bedtime?


No, it was only 9.50pm.

It's not just after midnight, BST, now.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> Really???? The fact of the matter is that the majority of states have eliminated lifetime or what is called pernament alimony in that the law prohibit it in the majority of states. Most states will give rehabilitative alimony and that is relatively short term.


 Yes, really; permanent alimony (also called lifetime alimony in some states) is still being granted. You will notice that I did not comment on the number of states that have lifetime alimony, but instead comment that "Many Americans live it states" that have such laws. I stated this because over 1/2 of the US population live in just 10 states, and of those 10 states, 9 still have permanent alimony laws still in place. Are these laws under attack in many of these states, yes they are, but until they are actually changed, they are the law. Throw in the fact that many of the other 40 states still have permanent alimony laws, and I stand by my statement that "Without knowing the state that she lives in" you were wrong in telling her that she "will not get long term alimony". You just cannot say that without knowing what state she lives in. I respect many of your past posts, and am surprised that you are debating this.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

MariaSews said:


> He pays for everything. I don't have a job, I don't have resources and I don't even have a place to go, not to mention the devastation this is going to have on my children. I need time to get my things together and least I can see my kids everyday while I do that. I will not resort to the level of throwing him out and acting like a selfish teenager as he is doing. I just want to be here for my kids for now. The day will come when I have the resources to move out, I can be patient.
> 
> I don't want to stay here. The house is well out of my means. If I made him leave there is no way I could afford to pay for it, nor would he have enough to support himself and keep the house going at the same time. If I left and didn't ask for anything, he could keep the house and the kids could stay here, the only place they have ever known. Revenge wouldn't make me feel any better. Moving on and being with someone who respects my needs as a human being is better than revenge.



Standing up for yourself and your children is not revenge, OP, it is survival. Your H has behaved badly and you have to take control of this situation by seeking the right help, and that starts with you seeking legal advice. You need to empower yourself by finding out what those rights are, rather than thinking of leaving the marital home and, even worse, leaving your children behind... 

I also think counseling might be a good idea, because you need some support in making the right decisions and rebuilding your self-esteem.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Dear MariaSews,

Please don't get distracted by the debate above about permanent alimony. There is no substitute for quality professional advice, so you would be best advised to speak to a good divorce attorney in your area about what your rights and responsibilities would be in a divorce before you decide on a course of action (and certainly before you move out of your home).

If you live in the U.S., your WH cannot deny you access to family funds in order to prevent you from obtaining legal advice. Definitely speak to an attorney about this before assuming that you can't afford a lawyer.

Your lawyer can also advise you about what you would likely receive in a divorce (i.e., how much child support, alimony and marital property you would receive) and, based on this, you can determine what your financial circumstances would then be.

But the broader point remains: until you start to give your WH consequences for his actions, he has no reason to change his behavior. This may or may not require you to let him know that you are prepared to divorce him over this but, clearly, you have to do something to make him uncomfortable with his "friendship."

Wishing you the best.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

TRy said:


> Yes, really; permanent alimony (also called lifetime alimony in some states) is still being granted. You will notice that I did not comment on the number of states that have lifetime alimony, but instead comment that "Many Americans live it states" that have such laws. I stated this because over 1/2 of the US population live in just 10 states, and of those 10 states, 9 still have permanent alimony laws still in place. Are these laws under attack in many of these states, yes they are, but until they are actually changed, they are the law. Throw in the fact that many of the other 40 states still have permanent alimony laws, and I stand by my statement that "Without knowing the state that she lives in" you were wrong in telling her that she "will not get long term alimony". You just cannot say that without knowing what state she lives in. I respect many of your past posts, and am surprised that you are debating this.


I apologize for the threadjack. I will do a separate post on alimony.

When folks are going through this crap they really do need legal advice.
There are attorneys that will give a free hour. If you call several (like I did) you will get your questions answered. I then found an attorney and already knew most of the information I needed and could get down to brass tacks.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Also don't be surprised if you can't find any attorney's that give free initial consultations. I could find none in my area that behaved that way, so it may just be your area as well (had it been workman's comp, or something wrongful, then they were there by the droves, just not in D cases, lucky me).


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Squeakr said:


> Also don't be surprised if you can't find any attorney's that give free initial consultations. I could find none in my area that behaved that way, so it may just be your area as well (had it been workman's comp, or something wrongful, then they were there by the droves, just not in D cases, lucky me).


That's because attorney's fees in worker's comp and personal injury cases are usually paid on a contingency basis. She may have to pay for the consultation, but can request that her husband pay her attorney's fees in the divorce complaint. Some attorneys will not require a consult fee if you retain them. Whatever you do, talk with an attorney that specializes in divorce law. The best way to find a really good one is ask people you know that have divorced who they used. Good luck to you!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Thanks and I knew why the others were giving free consults, was just stating that as a fact for others as lots here don't realize that not all areas work the same way (they believe that their state is the way that all states work). My state has a long waiting lists for counselors and I have never seen a free consult with an attorney on a D case (so yes my state sucks). Just relating my experience (and I wish they took D on contingency, LOL).


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

So in the last few days after he lied about texting and I told him I would have to leave him if he couldn't discontinue his friendship with the OW...

I have been doing the 180. Making his salads and fruit for work lunches, doing all the usual stuff around the house and not bringing up anything about last weekend.

He comes home yesterday and proceeds to tell me the OW contacted him about a roommate for us who wants to spend $1000 a month for a room. The OW knows we are in a financial mess so she thought this was a good idea, but then she tells him later in the day, scratch the idea, he needs a place closer to his work because we aren't close enough. 

To verify his story, I checked his phone while he was in the shower and there are no such messages about his story. Checked the phone records and there are no such calls made between the two of them. SO, it looks like he either deleted their messages OR they found some other way to communicate since he knows I'm hot on his trail by visiting AT&T website. The problem is they use I-message and those messages don't come up on AT&T. If he is deleting, I won't find anything when I access the phone. VAR in the car won't do any good. He rides a motorcycle to and from work everyday.

I see there is an evidence gathering thread, but I got discouraged about seeing so many pages to comb thru...I need help finding a device that can track his phone messages. There are A LOT out there, but are they scams? Experts out there, help, which one works, which one is reasonably priced...I NEED to see what they are texting. 

Meanwhile, I am getting finances in order, it will take time, but at least I am in my house and I see my kids everyday. Who knows if he will ever come to his senses...He also said he is depressed and would kill himself if it weren't for his kids so he has to go on living everyday for them...I asked him before he left for work this morning if I was the cause of his depression he said no...


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## Foghorn (Sep 10, 2012)

If you are still making his lunches and inquiring about his mental health, (boo, hoo) then you are not doing the 180.

The 180 is for you. It means, make yourself the most important person in your life. Take care of yourself, communicate civilly but only about the children. 

It is not your job any more, within the 180, to validate his needs, calm his fears, or provide him with reassurance. He can go to OW for that , or stop seeing her and rebuild with you.

If he's so worried about access to his children, why is he endangering his ability to see them every day by continuing this relationship of poor boundaries? Don't feel guilty! Remember, he has a CHOICE in this. He can STOP SEEING HER.

Take care of yourself. Start planning out your options. Sometimes nothing but the D papers "Slap to the side of the head" wakes someone out of the fog.

What he's doing is disrespectful!!! 

And stop making his #&$^* lunch. 

Respectfully,
FH


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

Good point, Foghorn. I guess my reasoning behind the lunches is that I am now in charge of bills/finances, so if he has less to spend on take out, I have more money to set aside for me...

I shouldn't have asked him about the depression, but he brought it up first. I thought if the spouse wants to talk about the issues it is ok to discuss...I feel his depression is the big reason he is having an EA with the OW...


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

The idea about the 180 and only talking about children as it needs to be about you and you want the WS to feel the pressure of having no one to vent to. This way they start to see that they really do need you and that you aren't the bad guy that they have made you out to be in their mind for so long.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Maria - If you read a lot about the path that A's like your WH's take, you will see that being forced to break contact often results in depression on the part of the WS. He is in an A with her. He does not want to stop contact and, in fact, he hasn't, has he? At best, he's decreased contact & even that is depressing him.

Until he has real consequences, you won't know where you stand, either in a marriage where you are reconciling or in the process of divorce.

Tell him now that NC means NC. If he continues contact, you are done. If he agrees to finally go NC, then get a VAR and do a real 180.

I believe that your so-called friend sees your WH as her next H. She will insist that she 'never meant for this to happen,' but who cares what she says or thinks at this point? If you want your marriage, you absolutely need to play hardball and to stick to what you say.


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

alte Dame, no he hasn't stopped contact. He in fact said how difficult it is to end contact with someone who has been his FRIEND for 20+ years. He told me he was "working on NC" and would tell me when they talked, which he did, but I don't see the evidence to back up what he said.

Now I have the OW's mom sending me an email asking me how my diet is going and how am I?? I grew up with the OW's mom, she was always a second mom to me, but it is rare she would send me such messages and I find a little ironic, her timing is off...So apparently the OW is discussing it with her mother. Great.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I know this is very hard for you. The ball is in your court. If he keeps in contact and you stay in the marriage, you are helping to doom your chances to save things. This isn't easy, but it's simple. Her or me. 

For now, read up on the 180 and do a hard one. Let him know that as long as he will not break off contact, you are the very model of the 180 wife.


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## Madman1 (Oct 24, 2012)

MariaSews said:


> I see there is an evidence gathering thread, but I got discouraged about seeing so many pages to comb thru...I need help finding a device that can track his phone messages. There are A LOT out there, but are they scams? Experts out there, help, which one works, which one is reasonably priced...I NEED to see what they are texting.


MS this post by weighlifter, he is very helpful with this stuff, I'm sure if you have a question you could pm him about it.



weightlifter said:


> If you are interested in gathering intel here are complete step by step instructions.
> 
> If you wish to dig the most important part right now is play captain clueless.
> 
> ...


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## MariaSews (Sep 13, 2013)

Thx for the tips. Amazing what's out there...LOL!


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