# Custody questions



## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Since a heated discussion this weekend had my wife raise the topic that I move out, I figure I should be prepared. It's the third time she's raised it -- five years ago, four months ago, and now. I don't quite see how turning the tables and telling her she should move out would work, since we have two kids at home and she works only part time so she can pick them up at school. I do drop-off in the mornings.

Our relationship might go either way, but if we separate/divorce, I'm curious about three things: 
1) Does joint custody mean a 50/50 split on time with the kids, or is more of a legal concept and actual time spent is a separate negotiation?
2) Official custody aside, what are the factors that permit half time with Dad, half time with Mom, weekends are split? I don't want Wednesday night and every other weekend, but that seems common when Dads move out. If I stay near-by (walking distance), do I have a better chance of getting more evenings with the kids? (I don't love the idea of making them go to different homes, but it beats being a one night a week Dad). Would I have to line up some sort of after-school supervision, or can they still get picked up by their Mom, and then head to my place in the evening?
3) Is the one who isn't on duty for a weekend expected to disappear? I've been at lacrosse tournaments the last two weekends. The two kids I know with divorced parents never had them both there each weekend. One or the other. I only see both at one time only events like parent-teacher conferences and eighth grade graduations. Is that ordered, or just encouraged?

And, to get responses from those with experience, should this topic go in life after divorce?


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

It's very state dependent. In general, I would say the most important thing you can do right now is not to move out of your home. Second most important is to get your wife working full time. If you can accomplish those 2 things, you have a much better chance, BUT the deck will still be stacked against you because you a man. Check out this website read THE LIST, and go to the forum- dadsdivorce.com


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

It's not just state dependent, it's also heavily influenced on what the two people (and the kids) work out. If you and your wife can work out an amicable solution to try, the courts aren't likely to kibosh it if it's in the best interests of the child. It can range from things like one parent gets the kids for most of the summer and one or two holidays throughout the year (most likely in the case of a long distance setup) to the parents each having half of a shared duplex, with the kids having bedrooms in the basement that they don't need to move in and out of. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

PBear said:


> It's not just state dependent, it's also heavily influenced on what the two people (and the kids) work out. If you and your wife can work out an amicable solution to try, the courts aren't likely to kibosh it if it's in the best interests of the child. It can range from things like one parent gets the kids for most of the summer and one or two holidays throughout the year (most likely in the case of a long distance setup) to the parents each having half of a shared duplex, with the kids having bedrooms in the basement that they don't need to move in and out of.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just keep in mind that it's very common for women in your wife's situation to have friends/family/lawyers to encourage them to go for the jugular. A common scenario involves a divorce that starts out amicable and then gets ugly very quickly. If you are going to try to negotiate on your own, make sure you get the negotiation in writing. I still encourage you to read The List.


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

This both state dependant and dependant on the individuals involved. As PB noted, if you all can work this our amiably, it will cost considerably less and you all will most likely end up actually being decent to each other. If one person wants to fight, all bets are off though.

Look at the site noted by wilderness: THE LIST (Print It) - Divorce Forum and Child Custody Forum. Search around the site, there is a lot of good advise for men looking to stay in their childrens lives.

At this point, you need to make yourself smarter on the divorce process and your state requirments. The reason I say this is that if your wife is making demands, there is a chance that she is already started on the divorce process. The List (above) will give you some starting points to get ready for divorce. Worst case is that you all go to counseling and you don't need the information, but I like to be prepared.

As to your specific questions:

Don't move out of the house until you have a custody agreement settled. It is not that you are abandoning the kids, it is more that you are showing the courts that the kids are better off with Mom since you left. It's called status quo and can become very important. Stay in your house and work out the details first.

1) 50/50 is what is says, the kids spend 50% of the time with each parent. Both parents still get to stay involved with the day-to-day of raising the kids. This will also feed a little into taxes, but that is another discussion. Most people go with some sort of schedule to achieve the 50/50, usually week on, week off, or 2/2/3, or a 3/4/4/3 type schedule.

2) Read the List and start to document your involvement in your children's lives. This can be used to show the court your relationship with your kids. This is a point where a lot of guys concide defeat and give most of the time to Mom. This hurts in a lot of ways: You set the status quo (see again?) which can be difficult to change in the future and will cost you financially in that it will mean much more child support to pay. Fight to be a part of their lives as much as you can, kids need BOTH parents in their lives to thrive.

3) This is up to you whether you attend events together like adults or avoid each other like a couple of children. I always show up to my children's events/concerts/games whether my ex is there or not. We managed to divorce amiably and we still get along pretty well.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Thank you all. I am preparing to be prepared. 

My challenge is _I_ believe my marriage can be repaired, and my wife _says_ she believes it can be repaired. I would, indeed, like to repair it, but it may end up as an impossibility and/or she may throw in the towel. I have considered throwing in the towel, as well. As a result, it is incorrect to refer to her as my soon-to-be ex-wife. But I understand the need to be prepared.
Rest easy, guys. I hear you loud and clear and I will not move out without legal paperwork that has been viewed by a qualified lawyer (one with references from divorced Dads).

C3156 -- you say you have a amiable relationship. Good for you. Does or did your now ex-wife know that you 


> EXPECT HER TO LIE. EXPECT THEM TO BELIEVE HER. EXPECT NO FAIRNESS. EXPECT TO NEED MOUNTAINS OF EVIDENCE TO PROVE YOUR CASE.
> 
> Their goal is to "bleed you dry" and beat you into submission. You'll never see the last of their dirty tricks. It behooves you therefore to be very prepared very early.
> 
> NEVER BE IN A POSITION WHERE YOU HAVE TO PLAY "CATCH-UP."


 ? Which I just took from the list. I can understand the tone (be ready to fight) but I wonder if a combative tone can ever lead to a reasonable post-divorce relationship. I have been faithful, and I believe my wife has been, as well. (If I start to wonder, I WILL seek weightlifter's advice.)

Does coaching sports teams and going on Adventure guides weekends count toward good parenting?


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

C3156 posted some wonderful info for you.

DO NOT MOVE OUT

Many states split custody into two things actually. There is both residential and legal. Residential is about where the child is for parenting time. Legal is about decision making. Joint only means shared. The defined percentage is key. Residential percentages should always be viewed in terms of overnights. If the child didn't sleep there, it didn't happen. Wednesday night dinners area feel good thing. Make it an overnight.

Get a good voice recorder for about $50. I don't think there are any/many states left that you can't record 1 party in. So as long as she's yelling at you, you can record it because you are party to it. Anything else goes to wire tapping and surveillance laws.

Amicable today is angry tomorrow. More often then not but not always. Good luck with that.

Watch out for bullscat DV charges. Common tactic.

A major factor in determining parenting time is status quo. This is why not moving out is important. Common tactic is to get you out. You file. She drags feet while spoon feeding you the children. Goes to trial in a year and she can show you having the children only 10-25% of the time. 

She's not your lawyer. Even if she is "a" lawyer. So don't listen to her. She isn't in charge of any of it. She isn't a legal expert. Her "lawyer said" is the same as "I said". 

Radio silence. Look it up. Run with it with her.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

1812overture said:


> Does coaching sports teams and going on Adventure guides weekends count toward good parenting?


Most definitely! Get good documentation! Pictures, etc. Nothing louder in court than pictures of smiling kids.


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## Malpheous (May 3, 2013)

The tone in that is meant more towards the reader. Kind of a tough love deal. It's saying to be prepared. Just because someone is being amiable, don't expect that to be the rule. People can and will change at the drop of a hat. Be amiable but be prepared.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

1812overture said:


> Thank you all. I am preparing to be prepared.
> 
> My challenge is _I_ believe my marriage can be repaired, and my wife _says_ she believes it can be repaired. I would, indeed, like to repair it, but it may end up as an impossibility and/or she may throw in the towel. I have considered throwing in the towel, as well. As a result, it is incorrect to refer to her as my soon-to-be ex-wife. But I understand the need to be prepared.
> Rest easy, guys. I hear you loud and clear and I will not move out without legal paperwork that has been viewed by a qualified lawyer (one with references from divorced Dads).
> ...


Do yourself a favor and read as many threads on that forum as you can. Divorce usually starts out amicable and then turns ugly. There may be exceptions but they are very rare. (unless you are willing to give her full custody and everything she wants)
What I'm trying to say is that if you want to be reasonable that's a worthy goal, but the likelihood is that your wife will not be reasonable once her friends/lawyers/family get to her.

Again, whatever you do, don't move out.
Also, try to get your wife working full time.


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## C3156 (Jun 13, 2012)

1812overture said:


> Which I just took from the list. I can understand the tone (be ready to fight) but I wonder if a combative tone can ever lead to a reasonable post-divorce relationship. I have been faithful, and I believe my wife has been, as well. (If I start to wonder, I WILL seek weightlifter's advice.)


It's calling being prepared. If you should enter the divorce arena, you need to know what you could be faced with. The List is a little harsh, but it is the result of the combined knowledge of a lot of guys. Some ended amiably such as myself, others were raked over the coals and royally screwed. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

A lot of the negotiation is knowing when to pick your battles.




1812overture said:


> Does coaching sports teams and going on Adventure guides weekends count toward good parenting?


That is perfect kind of things to include in your journal. Don't forget things like doctor appointments, meeting your kids for lunch at school (not so much with older kids), and school conferences.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1812,
You ask a great question about 'tone'. Tone matters more than anything. 

From what I've read of your posts, you seem like a good/great Dad so you won't need to be combative. 

You will however want a strategy that shows why it benefits the children to be with you half time. And you also want to anticipate the negative comments your W will make about your parenting and emphasize parenting examples that tend to show otherwise. 

You don't say: Mrs. O believes that I am too soft on the kids. 

You say: While most of my parenting focus is on emphasizing the positive, when needed I have been effective at changing the kids behavior. For example: ...,...,...

You will not need to say anything bad about your wife and frankly she will lose credibility over time if she continues to ding you in a way that seems inaccurate or dishonest. 

Maybe it's true that you don't like to discipline the kids. I'm guessing it's also true that:
- You strongly prefer positive reinforcement and
- Are willing to discipline if positive reinforcement isn't working





1812overture said:


> Thank you all. I am preparing to be prepared.
> 
> My challenge is _I_ believe my marriage can be repaired, and my wife _says_ she believes it can be repaired. I would, indeed, like to repair it, but it may end up as an impossibility and/or she may throw in the towel. I have considered throwing in the towel, as well. As a result, it is incorrect to refer to her as my soon-to-be ex-wife. But I understand the need to be prepared.
> Rest easy, guys. I hear you loud and clear and I will not move out without legal paperwork that has been viewed by a qualified lawyer (one with references from divorced Dads).
> ...


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> 1812,
> From what I've read of your posts, you seem like a good/great Dad so you won't need to be combative.


Thank you for that. We are all just making it up as we go along. It would be more accurate to say I'm more of the disciplinarian on small every day stuff -- pick that up, put it where it belongs, etc. Those as they have gotten older it is "have you done everything your supposed to, is your homework finished, what's due next week." Then when the really hard stuff comes up, I am positive and explain why I have confidence in them "you've done this in the past. And this. And this. This current challenge is nothing compared to those." Even if the current challenge is a much bigger one. It's one thing I really believe about with youth sports.

If it all comes to it, it will be a challenge because my wife has a very different style, and fights to keep me from being the dad I want to be. Her style isn't wrong, its different. She'll say my style is wrong.


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## 1812overture (Nov 25, 2013)

Anyone have thoughts on kids commuting to school? Middle school and high school? 
IF I move out (and I wouldn't so without a written agreement in place), I can probably live nearby. That's got advantages for being in the kids lives on something close to a daily basis, but if they are in the house with their Mom, it feels like I'm destined to have a less comfortable place. And since the burbs are for married families, it's kind of sad. Their middle school is on a bus route (the one I currently use to get downtown), so if I lived downtown, it would be a hip place that the kids might actually look forward to coming to. That means a reverse commute to get the school, though. I could ride with them, and then just take the bus back the other way, or maybe -- over time -- have them ride the bus alone.
That would generally raise a point of contention with my wife -- she worries and doesn't think they can ride the bus alone. She's probably correct for the fifth grader, but I disagree for the middle-schooler. (Lot's of conflict on that one.)
It's not ideal, but 20 minutes on the bus isn't much more than the 15 minute walk they currently have. And I would so much more enjoy living downtown -- makes working late easier, many more things for single males to do, and places to meet women. (Unless that's all done online these days.)
Would a judge look down on a 20 minute commute to middle school?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Not just a written agreement - a legal agreement, signed off by the courts.

Do not move out until you have this. If your wife wants a divorce then she can bloody we'll move out herself!

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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