# Really? Again!



## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

I have really appciated reading messages on this board because everything that I went through 5 years ago and now again feels validated. It makes me so angry to think how cynical I am now. It's hard to tell the story without getting carried away but I will try to keep it simple. 

5 years ago my DH found a co worker that he got involved with. I may never truly know exactly what happen for sure ( b/c who ever can know). I believe this OW was very friendly and stroked his ego. I had been preoccupied having a baby and caring for his disabled mother. I left out of town to see family for a few days and came back to a changed guy. He would say I need to learn how to do things because he didnt think he would be around to do them for me. He would tell me to be more independent. He started getting home late, like 3 hrs late. When he left his email window open I discovered emails of texts that he saved to reminisce about. It was flirty and definitely bad. When confronted he admitted it and explained that she was so wonderful. He complained that I am too cold, not interested in his hobbies, and not spontaneous enough. She makes him feel so good. 

A few months before I had wanted a new phone but we ended up buying him a new phone instead and I took his old one. This meant I had is phone directory and I called the OW. She said she had thought our marriage was already over and she was trying to be a good friend to my husband. I am ashamed to say I did reminder her I could tell their employer and hurt her career if she continued to talk to my husband at all. She agreed. 

Looking back I think my DH was starting an Exit Affair. I don't think it got physical. I scared away the OW so he didn't end up leaving. I left him for 3 months but came home because it was my house and I wanted to at least try to R. He didn't really want me to come back.

He was half hearted and passive about making things work. The first year he was depressed and moody and refused to let me have acesss to his emails and texts. I could look at our phone records if needed. He wanted me to change and I did try for a while. Mostly he wanted me to clean better and be super interested in his hobbies. He said he wanted to be admired. 

I read a lot of books and decided I was too co depenant and passively aggressive. I tried to rely less on my DH for happiness. I got a job I loved and gave me confidence. I did things that made me happy. I stopped caring about what my DH thought of me because he always has bad things to say. I reached a point where I didn't care to read his texts or emails because if he wanted another women she could have him. That is unti this week. 

We have been in a pretty good place the last year but not perfect. There have been many times I thought about leaving but decided I loved my DH and I loved being around him. He is funny and interesting. Our child is also a big reason too. 

I was completely shocked when he accidentally called me during a meeting with the same OW. It was hard to tell for sure what they were saying but it was clear he was trying to leave and she was upset and complaining he had to leave to pick up our son from school. When I told my husband he admitted it but it is very different this time. He said that he had met her to help her pick out a pet and they had met a month ago so he could help her pick out an item that he knows a lot about. Both times were around his Hobbies. The OW relationship had just broken up and she was crying over that. She has been coming around the area he works after years of staying away. He doesn't have her new number or email. They verbally decided to meet, he said it was him who offered. 

My first thought was that its over but he does seem truthful when he says he wants to fix our marriage now. He seems willing and more open this time. He is willing to give me access to his phone and emails. I believe him but am also suspicious. There are so many ways now to hide messages that I can't possibly keep up with. I suspect she wasn't as fun to hang out with as he thought and he was testing the waters. 

We have been married for 15 years and I don't see mine or our child's life better without him so I am giving him a few months to show me he can try to fix things but I kind of doubt him. He loves to find my problems but we can't usually make it over to his problems at all. Everyone will probably tell me to go but if it was that easy I would. 

Thanks for listening.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Same woman? 5 Years since first situation and now? 

Honestly your husband DID NOT LEARN THE LAST TIME. he is back in the affair. 

Really? you want to keep trying? While he was willingly in contact, no email or phone just verbal because HE REALLY REALLY REALLY does not want you to know. 

Do you know what might work? Dropping him like a hot potato, she is pursuing him and he LIKES IT. He also LIKES THAT YOU HAVE NOT GIVEN UP ON HIM! this man is an ego kibble junkie. As long as she makes him feel good and he does not dig into why he is messed up and wanting those feelings there is no point to keep working at this. She will just keep chipping away at the armor you have on your marriage. The armor your husband soaks in the salty ocean to rust away as fast as possible. 

He does not care about your feelings only so far as he can keep you ignorant. As far as her, he has not drawn the line in the sand. BECAUSE HE DOES NOT WANT TO! 

Dropping him will cut of half the ego kibble supply, He will have to chose her because his wife walked out. He will finally see this other woman for a predator and he was a stupid weak prey. Prey that stares right at the big wolf instead of being smart and running for safety. He will see less of his kids, and will also see your strength. 

Only when he really SEES WHAT HE THREW AWAY, only then is he even close to worthy of another try. 

I have kids, I am not saying this without understanding the difficult position you find yourself still in.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

threelittlestars said:


> Same woman? 5 Years since first situation and now?
> 
> Honestly your husband DID NOT LEARN THE LAST TIME. he is back in the affair.
> 
> ...



I agree. Putting separation and divorce into motion is extremely difficult and I keep sticking my head in the sand. Kicking him out is still an option. I am really unhappy with him on multiple levels unrelated to this and this is just the cherry on top of the s**t pile. 

Part of the issue is that I doubt any relationship after this will great. Maybe all relationships are tolerable at best after so many years. This is the only relationship I have ever had and I have never broken up with anyone. I met him at 18 and married a year later. Our parents are gone now, we are each other's family. It's hard to turn my back even when it makes sense. I like my life and I feel like divorcing him jeopardized my life, friends, schedule, house and support system for our child. I am worried that our child is getting old enough to notice the disfunction. 

What concerns me is how easy it is to fall into our routines just like nothing happened. I have no idea what to do from here. It's only been a week but more info keeps slipping out when I push him and he becomes more willing to make an effort. I don't know. Yesterday he said he might look for another job away from OW. Not sure if that is really good enough now. I think he isn't as interested in her because she was crying and not as peppy as he remembered. I don't want to worry about looking over his shoulder. It's exhausting.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

How solid is your marriage? How often do you kiss, touch, and have sex?


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

GuyInColorado said:


> How solid is your marriage? How often do you kiss, touch, and have sex?


Very bad. We had sex once or twice in the last year and maybe a handful of times the year before that. When ever I bring it up he deflects the problem to me saying I was never interest in sex that much when we were younger so what does it matter now or makes me feel bad for even being it up. This would be the main reason I have considered leaving him within the last few years. I had been thinking he probably had erectile disfunction and was too embarrassed to discuss it. He wants to just have a sexless marriage now. He is 38 btw. 

I know. It's embarrassing how awful everything is.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The guy never did learn how to tie his shoe lace vows after that first EA, Emotional Affair.

He did not learn to retie his marital shoe lace because he tripped over them again....same hole, different day........ different year, same year-ning.

He must pay the price. He must price-in his adultery.
Let your attorney send the TAB to this Wooden Nickel of a man. Nick his wallet.




EA....Easing Away from their significant other. 
EA....Eating Away.. eschewing what is offered at home.
EA....Elastic Ambit
EA....Eventual Apoplexy to a healthy marriage.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Tell him to man up or you'll divorce him. Stop playing games. Go to MC meetings, talk about the issues. Him putting any issues on you is bull. He has faults. We all do. Find out why his penis isn't working, especially if you have had desire. ED can be stress related or medical. A blood test can be done . Or he is getting sex elsewhere.

It takes two to make it work.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Nothing wrong with a divorce. I was in a 100% sexless marriage for the last 4 years of my 8 year marriage. It's a sham. It eats at you slowly and you try to convince yourself you can live like this until your kids turn 18. I read No More Mr Nice Guy, got mad, and left. I was having sex with girls the next day from my new extended stay hotel temporary home. I'm having the best sex of my life now and bought a house with the girl of my dreams 16 months post separation. Get busy living life to the fullest. Only one life. Don't waste it.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

GuyInColorado said:


> Nothing wrong with a divorce. I was in a 100% sexless marriage for the last 4 years of my 8 year marriage. It's a sham. It eats at you slowly and you try to convince yourself you can live like this until your kids turn 18. I read No More Mr Nice Guy, got mad, and left. I was having sex with girls the next day from my new extended stay hotel temporary home. I'm having the best sex of my life now and bought a house with the girl of my dreams 16 months post separation. Get busy living life to the fullest. Only one life. Don't waste it.


If I kicked him out he would be able to find a nice dumb girl to swallow his lies pretty easy. Pretty sure dating and marriage isnt as easy for single mom in her 30s. Plus whomever I marry has to be a step dad. It's complicated. It's a risk to stay and a risk to leave. Paralyzed me to make a decision.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> If I kicked him out he would be able to find a nice dumb girl to swallow his lies pretty easy. Pretty sure dating and marriage isnt as easy for single mom in her 30s. Plus whomever I marry has to be a step dad. It's complicated. It's a risk to stay and a risk to leave. Paralyzed me to make a decision.


It seems like you are saying that you'd rather live in your current miserable condition because you are afraid you would only be trading it for another miserable condition. Not all of life is miserable. Not all relationships are miserable. Life is not hopeless. You have power over your own life. Right now you have the power to decide not to live with a man who doesn't care about you.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

One of the first things I learned in Psychology class was that a person's past behavior is a very good indicator of his future behavior. You must have heard that once a cheater, always a cheater. That is especially true when his spouse shows that she is afraid to divorce him. What usually happens is that you end up looking the other way because the alternative is not attractive to you. You have already emboldened him to cheat by allowing it over and over again with no more than an argument for his months of pleasure. A fair trade in his book.

I cheated 4 times before my wife decided to open our marriage. I was not going to change. I have always had more than one women in my life and marriage did not change that. We got involved in some group sex and then threesomes. We ended up sharing a girlfriend for 30 years. My wife and I agree that had we insisted on monogamy, we would have divorced a very long time ago. There is a whole science of human evolution and how we are one of the few species who have sex for non reproductive reasons. We are attracted to others and there is no stopping that. How we act on that attraction varies from person to person.

I kept on cheating because I knew that my wife loved the lifestyle I was providing her and as she said, what the eyes do not see, the heart cannot feel. There are both husbands and wives who look the other way as long as their spouse is discrete. You indicated that you do not desire a divorce so you have taken away your main weapons. You are left with very little else to deter your husband. I would gladly trade an argument for some good sex for a few months. If I was facing divorce I would think twice about it, but it seems that even that does not deter some.

Here is an article that describes how my wife and I put our marriage ahead of monogamy. Worth a read:Rethinking monogamy today - CNN.com

We know lots of married couples who have saved their marriage this way. Our girlfriend is married and in an open marriage. They are married longer than 25 years. We are married for 44 years. We don't go out on weekends looking for new sex partners. In fact, my wife and I had less then 10 sex partners combined, and half of those were as a couple. When you know that your spouse can also see others it changes the ballgame and makes you step up your game. Good luck.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Very bad. We had sex once or twice in the last year and maybe a handful of times the year before that. When ever I bring it up he deflects the problem to me saying I was never interest in sex that much when we were younger so what does it matter now or makes me feel bad for even being it up. This would be the main reason I have considered leaving him within the last few years. I had been thinking he probably had erectile disfunction and was too embarrassed to discuss it. He wants to just have a sexless marriage now. He is 38 btw.
> 
> I know. It's embarrassing how awful everything is.


I doubt the original affair ever really ended and his latest round of excuses, finding a pet and hobbies is just nonensense. He doesn't want as sex less marriage it's just what the both of you are stuck in right now because neither of you are willing to pull the plug.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Part of the issue is that I doubt any relationship after this will great. Maybe all relationships are tolerable at best after so many years. This is the only relationship I have ever had and I have never broken up with anyone. I met him at 18 and married a year later. Our parents are gone now, we are each other's family. It's hard to turn my back even when it makes sense. I like my life and I feel like divorcing him jeopardized my life, friends, schedule, house and support system for our child. I am worried that our child is getting old enough to notice the disfunction.


I think that you must have observed more than your share of bad relationships. Many decent people still respect and are kind and considerate to their spouses after many years together. 

You may lose your support system for awhile and you have to decide what can give you the most happiness. If you stay in your current situation, you already know that you'll never find lasting happiness. By the way, if you're still in your mid thirties, you are still young. If making a decision is too difficult right now, it is not too early to start improving yourself. Take care of yourself physically, increase your knowledge, gain more self-confidence and realize your self-worth.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I have really appciated reading messages on this board because everything that I went through 5 years ago and now again feels validated. It makes me so angry to think how cynical I am now. It's hard to tell the story without getting carried away but I will try to keep it simple.
> 
> 5 years age my DH found a co worker that he got involved with. I may never truly know exactly what happen for sure ( b/c who ever can know). I believe this OW was very friendly and stroked his ego. I had been preoccupied having a baby and caring for his disabled mother. I left out of town to see family for a few days and came back to a changed guy. He would say I need to learn how to do things because he didnt think he would be around to do them for me. He would tell me to be more independent. He started getting home late, like 3 hrs late. When he left his email window open I discovered emails of texts that he saved to reminisce about. It was flirty and definitely bad. When confronted he admitted it and explained that she was so wonderful. He complained that I am too cold, not interested in his hobbies, and not spontaneous enough. She makes him feel so good.
> 
> ...


OP,

Try to remember the bolded part above. If you stay, you will become even more resentful. Of rugsweeping two D-days (maybe the same affair this whole time), of his criticism of you, of your sexless marriage, of his ED whatever the cause may be. You probably don't realize this right now in your emotional state, but your discovery last week was a gift. You have proof that AT A MINIMUM he has met up with his previous (or continuous) affair partner. You don't have to sleuth around to find that evidence. You have it. You have the moral high ground. You have nothing to feel badly about. Hold your head high and refuse to let your dignity take another massive blow.

I understand the fear of not wanting to uproot your life and your son's. I don't take it lightly. But if you let this slip by like the last time, and you just fall back into your old patterns, the resentment will eat away at you. Any "relief" that he supposedly has no contact with the OW will dissipate. You'll be miserable again, only worse.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> If I kicked him out he would be able to find a nice dumb girl to swallow his lies pretty easy. Pretty sure dating and marriage isnt as easy for single mom in her 30s. Plus whomever I marry has to be a step dad. It's complicated. It's a risk to stay and a risk to leave. Paralyzed me to make a decision.


Given the long-term state of your relationship, and the fact that your husband seems to be actively wayward on an ongoing basis, is there really a chance that you'll be happy in your marriage in the future? Do you expect a happy life if you stay, or are you just anticipating more of the same low-level misery? Are you okay with never having a chance to have a happier life?

If you leave, you do have that chance. It isn't a guarantee, of course, but there is a chance for it. Maybe it won't be what you always imagined. But it might be even better. You can have a happy life alone, if you choose to. You can have a chance for a happy life in another relationship, if you choose to do that. But in either case, you won't be spending every day with someone who seems to have a vested interest in helping you to feel bad about yourself and life in general. That alone can be very valuable. 

And, by the way, if you do end your marriage and decide that you want a relationship with someone else in the future, it really is possible to find a good, decent, attractive, loving, faithful man. Even for a divorced mom in her thirties. I did it. Many of my friends and acquaintances have done it. The trick is to get yourself healed and emotionally healthy so you're in the position to choose whether to continue being happily single or to be a great partner to a likewise emotionally healthy man.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

This is very helpful. If I keep it all in my head alone it's so easy to down play it or make it seem like maybe it wasn't a big deal. It feels like a bigger deal to tell other people about it. I haven't told anyone yet. I know therapy would be good for me but I haven't got around to it yet. My H gives a hard no to MC but not sure MC will fix much.


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## totalfive21 (Jun 25, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> This is very helpful. If I keep it all in my head alone it's so easy to down play it or make it seem like maybe it wasn't a big deal. It feels like a bigger deal to tell other people about it. I haven't told anyone yet. I know therapy would be good for me but I haven't got around to it yet. My H gives a hard no to MC but not sure MC will fix much.


I am speaking from a very similar experience. My husband had an EA (supposedly just that) 4.5 years ago. We rugswept the whole thing, and he refused MC. We have one young son. Like you, I have other gripes with my husband. He can be critical (and cruelly so). Also like you, there's an issue with ED on his part. Also like you, I have the ability to see good qualities in my husband, which complicates the decision. It wouldn't be complicated though if he had another affair.

I have become so resentful that part of me is HOPING to find evidence of another affair, to have an ironclad reason to end it. You have that now.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

totalfive21 said:


> I am speaking from a very similar experience. My husband had an EA (supposedly just that) 4.5 years ago. We rugswept the whole thing, and he refused MC. We have one young son. Like you, I have other gripes with my husband. He can be critical (and cruelly so). Also like you, there's an issue with ED on his part. Also like you, I have the ability to see good qualities in my husband, which complicates the decision. It wouldn't be complicated though if he had another affair.
> 
> I have become so resentful that part of me is HOPING to find evidence of another affair, to have an ironclad reason to end it. You have that now.


Its difficult to know if there was an EA this time. Certainly the potential or he was possibly looking to an have another EA. I feel like going some place with her even if in public and even if nothing romantic happens it's a breach in our marriage because the one rule I insisted on was him telling me about any contact he had with her. He didn't tell me she was coming around again, didn't tell me she need help finding these things, didn't tell me he was going to meet her because he thought I would never
know. He says he knows screwed up and jeopardized our life together and now he knows better. 

The only reason I pause is because he is acting like he wants to make things better. Last time he didn't. Its hard to pass that up. He has never been able to maintain a front of loving supportive husband for more than a few weeks so maybe I will know for sure then. He asks me what I want him to do and I don't know. He really can't do anything to make it better. 

Maybe I will just stop imaking excuses for him and tell him to find an apartment. I haven't decided for sure what the next step is. Just trying to keep my feet on the ground. I am going to talk to him tonight about at least finding an apartment. That is probably the next step.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I have really appciated reading messages on this board because everything that I went through 5 years ago and now again feels validated. It makes me so angry to think how cynical I am now. It's hard to tell the story without getting carried away but I will try to keep it simple.
> 
> 5 years age my DH found a co worker that he got involved with. I may never truly know exactly what happen for sure ( b/c who ever can know). I believe this OW was very friendly and stroked his ego. I had been preoccupied having a baby and caring for his disabled mother. I left out of town to see family for a few days and came back to a changed guy. He would say I need to learn how to do things because he didnt think he would be around to do them for me. He would tell me to be more independent. He started getting home late, like 3 hrs late. When he left his email window open I discovered emails of texts that he saved to reminisce about. It was flirty and definitely bad. When confronted he admitted it and explained that she was so wonderful. He complained that I am too cold, not interested in his hobbies, and not spontaneous enough. She makes him feel so good.
> 
> ...



He is lying through his teeth.
Get a good bulldog of a lawyer.
Blow up his world and tell family and friends what he has been doing. All of it, do not cover for him. It is not your shame or burden to carry.
You will never have peace in this marriage, he has shown you who he is and you have taken 5 years to believe him.

Build a new life for yourself, divorce him, no second chances, you will only find yourself in this place again in another few years.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

threelittlestars said:


> Same woman? 5 Years since first situation and now?
> 
> Honestly your husband DID NOT LEARN THE LAST TIME. he is back in the affair.
> 
> ...


This man is NOT worthy of another try, he has treated the OP as disposable, time for her to grow an pair and dump his ass instead of playing the 'pick me' dance. Hopefully when she does, she will realize she was far too good for him all along and will not want him back under any circumstances.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Its difficult to know if there was an EA this time. Certainly the potential or he was possibly looking to an have another EA. I feel like going some place with her even if in public and even if nothing romantic happens it's a breach in our marriage because the one rule I insisted on was him telling me about any contact he had with her. He didn't tell me she was coming around again, didn't tell me she need help finding these things, didn't tell me he was going to meet her because he thought I would never
> know. He says he knows screwed up and jeopardized our life together and now he knows better.
> 
> The only reason I pause is because he is acting like he wants to make things better. Last time he didn't. Its hard to pass that up. He has never been able to maintain a front of loving supportive husband for more than a few weeks so maybe I will know for sure then. He asks me what I want him to do and I don't know. He really can't do anything to make it better.
> ...


Starsare falling, you are making excuses, he has no business being in contact with the OW at all. What on earth are you waiting for, to catch them in bed together?
Sorry for the bluntness but you have all the evidence you need. He doesn't care about your feelings, he doesn't care about you at all as long as his ego is stroked. Pull the plug now. He will still have to be responsible to you and the kid. Get a lawyer and find out your options and please tell everyone you know, you have allowed his activities by hiding them and being complicit in doing so, expose expose! He needs a major reality check so expose.

He feels you getting stronger and pulling away, so he is keeping you as Plan B, that is why he is reeling you in pretending to want to make it work. If he really wanted to make it work, he wouldn't be within 50 miles of the OW, when are you gonna realise this?


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> My H gives a hard no to MC but not sure MC will fix much.


This shows that he isn't remorseful and not afraid of losing you. Be polite, but emotionally and mentally distant to him while you decide your next step. If he asks why you are distant, tell him that you have accepted that he doesn't really love you. Avoid any long talks for awhile. He needs to realize that you are dead serious about leaving him. If he doesn't seem to care, that makes it easier for you to avoid second guessing yourself.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Very bad. We had sex once or twice in the last year and maybe a handful of times the year before that. When ever I bring it up he deflects the problem to me saying I was never interest in sex that much when we were younger so what does it matter now or makes me feel bad for even being it up. This would be the main reason I have considered leaving him within the last few years. I had been thinking he probably had erectile disfunction and was too embarrassed to discuss it. He wants to just have a sexless marriage now. He is 38 btw.
> 
> I know. It's embarrassing how awful everything is.


There are some hard truths you need to face, TheStarsAreFalling.

First, this affair was - and still *IS *- very much physical between he and the OW. It's the height of naivete to think 'it never got physical' as you stated in your original post.

Secondly, he never STOPPED the affair 5 years ago. D-Day for sure put a crimp in their goings-on, and maybe it did scare the OW off for a while. But it was clearly never his intention to stop the affair. Ever. And when he told you he didn't want you to come back when you returned after 3 months, that should have been ALL you needed to know it was time to lawyer up.

Instead, you did the humiliating and degrading 'pick me' dance and jumped all over like a trained seal, desperately seeking his love and approval. You never got it and instead heard all about how you don't clean good enough or what a cold fish you are and that's why he doesn't want to have sex with you or how you need to 'admire' him more or that you're not into his hobbies and on and on. What a complete selfish ******* this guy is. He's so self-absorbed he thinks the whole damned world revolves around HIM. But then again, he's a got a wife who clings to him like grim death no matter what he says or does to her, and another woman willing to waste YEARS of her life on this flaming ass-clown, so I guess I can see where he gets that false sense of self importance.



> My first thought was that its over but he does seem truthful when he says he wants to fix our marriage now. He seems willing and more open this time. He is willing to give me access to his phone and emails. I believe him but am also suspicious. There are so many ways now to hide messages that I can't possibly keep up with. I suspect she wasn't as fun to hang out with as he thought and he was testing the waters.


Well, this is probably due to one of two reasons - either SHE is no longer interested in winning this 'prize' on a full time basis, or your husband took a trip to his lawyer and found out just how *much* it would cost him to get a divorce. There are a lot of men out there who have gotten a dose of reality at their attorney's office and have returned home suddenly much more desirous of 'working on the marriage' than they were before they talked to a lawyer.

And you're right - he's probably gotten himself a burner phone and is no longer using his cell phone to stay in touch with her. So it's no skin off his back to suddenly be 'transparent' with you.

You couldn't pay me enough money to settle for being this guy's Plan B. And sadly, that's what you are.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> My H gives a hard no to MC but not sure MC will fix much.


So you're STILL letting him call all the shots?

Marriage counseling is pointless anyway when you're going with someone whose *still lying and cheating*. That's why he doesn't want to go, because he'd have to continually lie convincingly for a whole hour every session, and he's not confident enough he could pull it off. Or, he's afraid the counselor will see right through him like most of us can.

You're wasting your time 'reconciling' with this guy. Sadly, the time _will _come when you make this discovery yourself.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Wow, what a worthless piece of crap! Find your lady ballz and tell him to get the HELL OUT. I could tell by your description of the FIRST time that he wasnt going to be faithful to you. Have some self respect and divorce this man! 

Oh and stop thinking about future relationships! You need to figure out how to live your life! Nobody NEEDS a relationship, and you thinking that you do shows that you have some serious issues of your own. Being on your own beats the hell out of staying with a serial, remorseless cheat ANY DAY!


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Part of the issue is that I doubt any relationship after this will great. Maybe all relationships are tolerable at best after so many years. This is the only relationship I have ever had and I have never broken up with anyone. I met him at 18 and married a year later. Our parents are gone now, we are each other's family. It's hard to turn my back even when it makes sense. I like my life and I feel like divorcing him jeopardized my life, friends, schedule, house and support system for our child. I am worried that our child is getting old enough to notice the dysfunction.


No, the issue is you are so codependent on some cheating scumbag that you'd rather put up with him screwing the same woman in a long term affair (and you are delusional if you do not believe he hasn't been boning her for years) than muster up enough self respect to leave this POS. 

He's shown you CLEARLY who he is. You admit you are too scared to start over so the problem is YOU not him. Stop making excuses and take some accountability in your life. If you stay with this loser then you have no one to blame for your misery other than YOURSELF.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

BetrayedDad said:


> Thestarsarefalling said:
> 
> 
> > Part of the issue is that I doubt any relationship after this will great. Maybe all relationships are tolerable at best after so many years. This is the only relationship I have ever had and I have never broken up with anyone. I met him at 18 and married a year later. Our parents are gone now, we are each other's family. It's hard to turn my back even when it makes sense. I like my life and I feel like divorcing him jeopardized my life, friends, schedule, house and support system for our child. I am worried that our child is getting old enough to notice the dysfunction.
> ...


 I am much less co dependent than I used to be but still have so much more to improve. You are correct that the problem is me and getting up the confidence to separate. I don't really expect much from my H, especially when it comes to what is best for me. 

It is just taking me a few days to digest and figure out what to do next. He acted remorseful at first but the old routines are slipping in and it makes me upset. We don't get to move on like nothing happened. 

I am unwilling to change anything about me for him. Just last night he seemed remorseful then started up with the ways I need to change including decorating for Easter. I haven't put away the easter table cloth yet. I had to remind him that this week has been a bad week for me, rememeber? Oh yeah. 

It's helpful to hear it from other people and last night was a reminder that even if he appears remorseful it's doesn't run very deep.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

I appreciate your bluntness. He really had no business see her outside of work at all. He should have told me about all of this before I found out. If it was all innocent why hide it? He didn't think I would find out. That was the same excuse he used last time. 

I don't think it was an ongoing affair but doesn't it really matter? He keeps important secrets from me and I can't trust him. I told him 5 years ago that if I caught him communicating with her behind my back it would be over. 

There is no doubt that his life with me is better than his life without me will be. I run most of our life's, pay our bills, keep in touch with friends and family. I took care of his parents when they died. Last time I told our friends and family what was happening and when we divorce they will all know even if I don't say anything this time. His life will suck until he finds another women to take care of him. Probably will find comfort with the same OW and she will be my child's step mom. Sorry, I will try not to go there until I have too.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I am unwilling to change anything about me for him. Just last night he seemed remorseful then started up with the ways I need to change including decorating for Easter. I haven't put away the easter table cloth yet. I had to remind him that this week has been a bad week for me, rememeber? Oh yeah.
> 
> It's helpful to hear it from other people and last night was a reminder that even if he appears remorseful it's doesn't run very deep.


Ways you need to change?? Decorating for Easter?? I just can't process this bs...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I appreciate your bluntness. He really had no business see her outside of work at all. He should have told me about all of this before I found out. If it was all innocent why hide it? He didn't think I would find out. That was the same excuse he used last time.
> 
> I don't think it was an ongoing affair but doesn't it really matter? He keeps important secrets from me and I can't trust him. * I told him 5 years ago that if I caught him communicating with her behind my back it would be over. *
> 
> There is no doubt that his life with me is better than his life without me will be. I run most of our life's, pay our bills, keep in touch with friends and family. I took care of his parents when they died. Last time I told our friends and family what was happening and when we divorce they will all know even if I don't say anything this time. His life will suck until he finds another women to take care of him. Probably will find comfort with the same OW and she will be my child's step mom. Sorry, I will try not to go there until I have too.


Well then, you best follow up with this, or you have ZERO credibility, and he will continue to do whatever the hell he wants to because he knows you wont do anything. 

He should have told you the very second she made contact with him. But they have probably been in touch all along...


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

Thestars, there are problems in your husband and in your marriage. I don't think you will be able to effectively deal with them until you get a handle on YOUR problem first. It looks to me like some form of codependency. I honestly believe that when you get this issue under control you will be able to handle the others. It seems to me that your husband is holding you hostage by using your codependency issues as leverage over you. 

Once you get yourself fixed, you like us, will wonder why you didn't divorce this guy earlier. Good luck to you.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I appreciate your bluntness. He really had no business see her outside of work at all. He should have told me about all of this before I found out. If it was all innocent why hide it? He didn't think I would find out. That was the same excuse he used last time.
> 
> I don't think it was an ongoing affair but doesn't it really matter? He keeps important secrets from me and I can't trust him. I told him 5 years ago that if I caught him communicating with her behind my back it would be over.
> 
> There is no doubt that his life with me is better than his life without me will be. I run most of our life's, pay our bills, keep in touch with friends and family. I took care of his parents when they died. Last time I told our friends and family what was happening and when we divorce they will all know even if I don't say anything this time. His life will suck until he finds another women to take care of him. Probably will find comfort with the same OW and she will be my child's step mom. Sorry, I will try not to go there until I have too.


So are you going to follow through?


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I have really appciated reading messages on this board because everything that I went through 5 years ago and now again feels validated. It makes me so angry to think how cynical I am now. It's hard to tell the story without getting carried away but I will try to keep it simple.
> 
> 5 years age my DH found a co worker that he got involved with. I may never truly know exactly what happen for sure ( b/c who ever can know). I believe this OW was very friendly and stroked his ego. I had been preoccupied having a baby and caring for his disabled mother. I left out of town to see family for a few days and came back to a changed guy. He would say I need to learn how to do things because he didnt think he would be around to do them for me. He would tell me to be more independent. He started getting home late, like 3 hrs late. When he left his email window open I discovered emails of texts that he saved to reminisce about. It was flirty and definitely bad. When confronted he admitted it and explained that she was so wonderful. He complained that I am too cold, not interested in his hobbies, and not spontaneous enough. She makes him feel so good.
> 
> ...


Hi @Thestarsarefalling

Thanks for your post. 

There are obviously a lot of people here who probably advocate you leaving your marriage and based on the evidence, you would be well within your right to do so. However, i'm a big believer in trying to restore the relationship if there is a possibility and in all honesty, the comments that he made does suggest that he is potentially open to it. 

It's extremely important for guys to get their ego stroked regulatly and it's one of those things that doesn't happen enough. Just to be clear, i'm not sitting in the male camp and just defending them. I also see so many guys lacking in their ability to provide genuine presence and making a woman feel understood but I think it's really important for both men and women to understand each others needs and make a commitment to serving them. If we can just learn to get out of our own ways and serve with love, things can change so quickly. 

Obviously, your husband has acted like a bit of an idiot with some of his behaviour and he needs to really make a conscious effort to turn things around - of which I hope he does. 
However, you can definitely play your part here as well which I know might seem frustrating. In fact, there might even be a part of you that completely resists it at times because of what he did but in order to turn this around, compassion does need to be exercised...

Find ways to make him feel significant, unique, special etc so that he creates some positive associations using your time together. If you can strike the right cords, then change can occur in him. Then if you can both meet each others needs at extraordinary levels, then you have a relationship that will last a long time. It's not easy and it takes effort. It's easy to go down the cynical path here but it's about striking the right balance between optimism/love yet being vigilant at the same time. 

I hope that all makes sense.

Any questions, let me know.

Thanks
Sri


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## commonsenseisn't (Aug 13, 2014)

shrah25 said:


> Hi @Thestarsarefalling However, i'm a big believer in trying to restore the relationship if there is a possibility and in all honesty, the comments that he made does suggest that he is potentially open to it.
> Thanks
> Sri


Restoring this relationship would be like restoring yourself back into hell.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

The idea that I need to make him feel better and help his ego in order to save my marriage can work. It did work. It saved my marriage last time. I read a book called Your Husbands Midlife Crisis by Sally and Jim Conway. It talked a lot about the needs of men and if you are loving to them they will come back. I am not saying it's all wrong, just that it's terrible advice to codependants. We already very naturally do anything to be loving. This builds up a lot of resentment when it's not returned that comes out in unrelated but punishing ways.

Trust me 5 years ago I made a perfect fool of myself initially to "get him back." I would tell him something he did everyday that I was grateful for, I tried to read up about his hobbies and talk to him about it, I tried harder to keep the house clean, I lost most of the baby weight that I gained, we still had a sex life back then, he insisted on sleeping on the floor so I did too. He would get mad if I tried to talk to him too much when he got home from work so I would just shut up and give him "cave time." I don't know how long this lasted maybe several months to a couple of years. All I wanted was to spend time together out of the house and to have no yelling or swearing. For the most part I was granted that. I learned about boundaries, codependency, and my narssistic mother, etc. 

5 years later I am very independent but open to doing things with H. I have boundaries. Some are finainacial and some are personal. I am not sacrificing things that make me happy and I should not have too. Even though I am not as sweet to him as I used to be he is already more invested in saving are marriage than last time. This tells me is likes the independent woman more than the one that caters to him.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> The idea that I need to make him feel better and help his ego in order to save my marriage can work. It did work. It saved my marriage last time. I read a book called Your Husbands Midlife Crisis by Sally and Jim Conway. It talked a lot about the needs of men and if you are loving to them they will come back. I am not saying it's all wrong, just that it's terrible advice to codependants. We already very naturally do anything to be loving. This builds up a lot of resentment when it's not returned that comes out in unrelated but punishing ways.
> 
> Trust me 5 years ago I made a perfect fool of myself initially to "get him back." I would tell him something he did everyday that I was grateful for, I tried to read up about his hobbies and talk to him about it, I tried harder to keep the house clean, I lost most of the baby weight that I gained, we still had a sex life back then, he insisted on sleeping on the floor so I did too. He would get mad if I tried to talk to him too much when he got home from work so I would just shut up and give him "cave time." I don't know how long this lasted maybe several months to a couple of years. All I wanted was to spend time together out of the house and to have no yelling or swearing. For the most part I was granted that. I learned about boundaries, codependency, and my narssistic mother, etc.
> 
> 5 years later I am very independent but open to doing things with H. I have boundaries. Some are finainacial and some are personal. I am not sacrificing things that make me happy and I should not have too. Even though I am not as sweet to him as I used to be he is already more invested in saving are marriage than last time. This tells me is likes the independent woman more than the one that caters to him.


And he STILL CHEATED AGAIN. Therefore it didnt work last time, and it wouldnt work this time either.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> And he STILL CHEATED AGAIN. Therefore it didnt work last time, and it wouldnt work this time either.


Yep. Because going into overdrive to cater to someone who's just cheated on you is actually rewarding bad behavior. Of course the wayward spouse likes it! They screwed their spouse over and got extra goodies out of the deal! But it's a ghastly plan if you don't want your partner to cheat on you again. Because it sends the very clear message that the "price" of cheating is a more loving, devoted, slavish, spouse who will stop and nothing to please their cheating partner in every way. 

Honestly, if that was going on in response to the first time she caught him, I'm pretty surprised it took the OP's husband this long (if it actually did) to cheat again.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Your husband HAS AN EGO PROBLEM yes, its not you NOT fluffing his ego enough its his ego is dysfunctional. Placating his ego you still have a problem. YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO PUT A BANDAID ON A AMPUTATED STUMP.... omg.... 

Gently, you got your thoughts all sorts of wrong.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Rowan said:


> Yep. Because going into overdrive to cater to someone who's just cheated on you is actually rewarding bad behavior. Of course the wayward spouse likes it! They screwed their spouse over and got extra goodies out of the deal! But it's a ghastly plan if you don't want your partner to cheat on you again. Because it sends the very clear message that the "price" of cheating is a more loving, devoted, slavish, spouse who will stop and nothing to please their cheating partner in every way.
> 
> Honestly, if that was going on in response to the first time she caught him, I'm pretty surprised it took the OP's husband this long (if it actually did) to cheat again.


:iagree:

Yep, THIS, 100%. This is also known as the PICK ME dance.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Rowan said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. Because going into overdrive to cater to someone who's just cheated on you is actually rewarding bad behavior. Of course the wayward spouse likes it! They screwed their spouse over and got extra goodies out of the deal! But it's a ghastly plan if you don't want your partner to cheat on you again. Because it sends the very clear message that the "price" of cheating is a more loving, devoted, slavish, spouse who will stop and nothing to please their cheating partner in every way.
> ...



I am not sure if I was clear. Last time I did do "the pick me dance" but I learned my lesson. That is not happening anymore. Even if I wanted to I don't know I can forgive and forget. How can he fix it? At best he can start meeting more of my needs but I feel it is doubtful. It's not the relationship that is hard to let go, it's our whole life together. Our lives are not miserable and hellish. My life does not revolve around my H. The loneliness gets hard sometimes but life is busy. 

I am not rushing into anything.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

You staying at this point and doing the path you have laid out for us is just another form of THE PICK ME DANCE, waiting hoping wondering are all in the category of ...Im here, pick me, love me, be happy with me. 

This is not going to bolster your ego, in fact, im sure your pretty darn insecure at this point. Who is going to fluff up your bruised ego? No one, cause only you can cure and solve your own emotional issues. Hanging around waiting and hoping is enabling him to NOT work on himself. 

i hope you can see that. 
And not rushing is overall good, but you are paralyzed.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

There are some people in life who simply aren't marriage material. Maybe your life isn't hellish, but your husband can't possibly be a good spouse if he's cheating on you. That's like the bare minimum of what a spouse shouldn't be doing in a marriage. That said, if you want to forgive him, and somehow build a life together, he would have to be completely transparent, honest, and willing to put you and your marriage, first. I don't see it happening, if he is back to his old ways.

I like the saying ''a person's true character is revealed when no one is looking.'' If your husband is deceptive and so on, that is who is really is. If he puts on a fake smile to pretend to be happy with you, that's not who he is. If you both can go through the motions of an everyday life together, that too isn't who he is. Who he really is, is who he is when you're not around to watch him. Who he REALLY is, is the guy who is deceptive and cheating. Unless he turns his back on that part of himself, your marriage will never work...not at least in the way you'd like it to. 

Stay true to you, and the right answer will come.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Did you tell him to get his own apartment or have you changed your mind on this?

I'm so sorry your going through this. Change can be very scary. But it's a matter of time before he does something like this again. He needs a kick in his butt to make him change, and he might not ever change. I think it's best to kick him out of the house. And if he wanted to make the marriage work he knows how, and it's by actions not words over a period of time. Separating is the best situation for you because it's not a divorce, but it's preparing you for what might come (eases you into it), it also gives him a change to prove to you that he loves you and is willing to change which he owes you if he wants to make it work with you. So by separating, you are saying I don't need you and I refuse to be treated like this, while at the same time saying if you want this marriage to work the ball is in your court and you have a lot i making up to do for me to even consider taking you back. You need to be strong, stay strong and start to prepare yourself.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> If I kicked him out he would be able to find a nice dumb girl to swallow his lies pretty easy. Pretty sure dating and marriage isnt as easy for single mom in her 30s. Plus whomever I marry has to be a step dad. It's complicated. It's a risk to stay and a risk to leave. Paralyzed me to make a decision.


Then he would be her problem, not yours.


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> The idea that I need to make him feel better and help his ego in order to save my marriage can work. It did work. It saved my marriage last time. I read a book called Your Husbands Midlife Crisis by Sally and Jim Conway. It talked a lot about the needs of men and if you are loving to them they will come back. I am not saying it's all wrong, just that it's terrible advice to codependants. We already very naturally do anything to be loving. This builds up a lot of resentment when it's not returned that comes out in unrelated but punishing ways.
> 
> Trust me 5 years ago I made a perfect fool of myself initially to "get him back." I would tell him something he did everyday that I was grateful for, I tried to read up about his hobbies and talk to him about it, I tried harder to keep the house clean, I lost most of the baby weight that I gained, we still had a sex life back then, he insisted on sleeping on the floor so I did too. He would get mad if I tried to talk to him too much when he got home from work so I would just shut up and give him "cave time." I don't know how long this lasted maybe several months to a couple of years. All I wanted was to spend time together out of the house and to have no yelling or swearing. For the most part I was granted that. I learned about boundaries, codependency, and my narssistic mother, etc.
> 
> 5 years later I am very independent but open to doing things with H. I have boundaries. Some are finainacial and some are personal. I am not sacrificing things that make me happy and I should not have too. Even though I am not as sweet to him as I used to be he is already more invested in saving are marriage than last time. This tells me is likes the independent woman more than the one that caters to him.


I'm glad you're going about setting the right boundaries for yourself and gaining that sense of independence. This will definitely help you as you've stated you're in a co-dependent relationship. Good on you for the action you've taken and I wish you all the best for the future


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

GuyInColorado said:


> Nothing wrong with a divorce. I was in a 100% sexless marriage for the last 4 years of my 8 year marriage. It's a sham. It eats at you slowly and you try to convince yourself you can live like this until your kids turn 18. I read No More Mr Nice Guy, got mad, and left. I was having sex with girls the next day from my new extended stay hotel temporary home. I'm having the best sex of my life now and bought a house with the girl of my dreams 16 months post separation. Get busy living life to the fullest. Only one life. Don't waste it.


I always meant to ask you. How is your EXW doing? Did she re-marry? Is she going through a string of men or is she not dating at all.

I know you do not care. But I also know that you have some curiosity about her. I am curious. Did she learn from her "mistakes"?


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> GuyInColorado said:
> 
> 
> > Nothing wrong with a divorce. I was in a 100% sexless marriage for the last 4 years of my 8 year marriage. It's a sham. It eats at you slowly and you try to convince yourself you can live like this until your kids turn 18. I read No More Mr Nice Guy, got mad, and left. I was having sex with girls the next day from my new extended stay hotel temporary home. I'm having the best sex of my life now and bought a house with the girl of my dreams 16 months post separation. Get busy living life to the fullest. Only one life. Don't waste it.
> ...



She has been in a long term relationship for 13 years that recently ended. My H says she has lots of guy friends and texts lots of men some who are also married. They are all just "friendly." He said she is one of those girls who just like male friends better than female friends. H doesn't think she is single but says she was crying about her break up from the long term bf. 

I called her last time twice to let know how her actions hurt me. She did seem scared of me, said my H implied our marriage was over. She seemed naive and dumb. ( more than me) The text messages I read 5 years ago were flirtatious but not obscene. I didn't see all the text messages just the ones he saved as a record. I did know that the both stayed up all night texting and my H had to called into work the next day. I was out of town. When I called her she told me how much my husband said he loved me and wanted to work things out with me. H was not telling me this at the time. She even offered to be a mediator of sorts to help my H and I work things out. Is she crazy!? I don't want her to be a councilor for us!

I insisted my H talk to her and let her know there would no friendship from him outside of work and to tell her I know about the times they met recently. He said she was shocked and mad at him because she thought it would be ok. How on Earth would it be ok with me. Sure, sure meet up my H out of work for some shopping. Someone is either dumb or lying.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

From everything you've written, you sound like the housekeeper - you keep the house, take care of other things domestic, have no sex with the 'man of the house.'

I think you're settling for a mediocre (at best) marriage. You don't have to settle! You can straighten your spine, put on your big girl panties, lace up your ***** boots, and show your WH the door.

He's a liar who doesn't love you or respect you for who you are. And you stay with this. Why would you do that? Why would you settle for this? How do you see yourself five years from now? If it's with him, then it's the same old **** - a husband who grudgingly stays in the marriage, but can't bring himself to be a decent husband.

I would toss him overboard. Life is too short. It really, really is.

Go visit the Chumplady and feel empowered:

https://www.chumplady.com

As she says, 'Leave a cheater. Gain a life!'


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

I know this might be annoying to keep saying this but I am writing this for myself to read it later as well as get the harsh reality told to me. 

I am reading Surving the Affair and it is crushing any tiny hope I had. The ways WS start affairs and hide affairs and how the are discovered. It makes my H seem guilty guilty guilty. Super hard to believe. I just can't. It's like all my hurt and anger is retroactive. All the hurt and anger from 5 years ago has come back with interest. I don't know if he really did just causally met her in a public place TWICE in the last month. That act brings all of it back. Now I have 5 years of unaccounted time, I have no real idea to if he ended it or not since he refused to let me see his texts and email at the time and I stopped asking since it was too upsetting. 

I have felt that he isn't taking me as seriously as he should. He has to quit his job or get out. Pick on or the other. He won't do it, he loves his job. It gives me a way to get a separation but not be unreasonable. I let him stay at his job around her last time and it is the only way I will even consider any R. I am doubting any R because I doubt my ability to be that understanding. That's my goal today. Wish me luck.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I insisted my H talk to EXW and let her know there would no friendship from him outside of work and to tell her I know about the times they met recently. He said she was shocked and mad at him because she thought it would be ok. How on Earth would it be ok with me. Sure, sure meet up my H out of work for some shopping. Someone is either dumb or lying.


She is dumb, For sure. 
No sense of boundaries.

For sure your' husband is a liar.
And dumb for thinking you are dumb.
And boundary senseless.
He does not care...until it becomes necessary to care.
A color blind chameleon, he be. He could not hide a toothpick in a pine forest.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Rowan said:


> 3Xnocharm said:
> 
> 
> > And he STILL CHEATED AGAIN. Therefore it didnt work last time, and it wouldnt work this time either.
> ...


I would say this is pretty accurate right now. I have to remind him nearly everyday that I am deciding if I want a divorce but I don't think he believes I am serious. I have asked to check his phone and iPad the last few days but it was mostly to see how he would react. He let me but eveytime he hovers and acts nervous. The last time he wanted to know why I want to see his phone, am I going to do this everyday? He said he didn't want me to download anything on his phone. Pretty sure this is a red flag. I ask him if he really wants to make things better. He will give me a hug and said "I am here aren't I?" Always answering questions with questions. Isn't that a red flag? 

His new found remorse slips away frequently. I admit I push his buttons and bring up topics I know he will rant about because it's a reminder of how shallow his remorse is. He will get mad and blame me for something, not concerned about hurting my feelings at all. Seems so careless. Yesterday went so badly that I could feel myself hardening my heart toward him. He made some comments about him not understanding what I am so upset about anyway. If he can't understand what he did wrong then I can expect him to do it again. I just don't see R in our future even if I tried. I don't like to fight and I let things go so often maybe he really thinks I will be ok with this. 

Why is this so hard to admit and take action?


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Run for the hills. 
He won't change.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I would say this is pretty accurate right now. I have to remind him nearly everyday that I am deciding if I want a divorce but I don't think he believes I am serious.* I have asked to check his phone and iPad the last few days but it was mostly to see how he would react. He let me but eveytime he hovers and acts nervous. The last time he wanted to know why I want to see his phone, am I going to do this everyday? He said he didn't want me to download anything on his phone. Pretty sure this is a red flag. I ask him if he really wants to make things better. He will give me a hug and said "I am here aren't I?" * Always answering questions with questions. Isn't that a red flag?
> 
> His new found remorse slips away frequently. I admit I push his buttons and bring up topics I know he will rant about because it's a reminder of how shallow his remorse is. He will get mad and blame me for something, not concerned about hurting my feelings at all. Seems so careless. Yesterday went so badly that I could feel myself hardening my heart toward him. He made some comments about him not understanding what I am so upset about anyway. If he can't understand what he did wrong then I can expect him to do it again. I just don't see R in our future even if I tried. I don't like to fight and I let things go so often maybe he really thinks I will be ok with this.
> 
> Why is this so hard to admit and take action?


Ok this that I bolded tells you everything you need to know! He has the nerve question WHY you want to see his phone?? Really?? Tell him YES, youre goddam RIGHT I am going to check this phone, and if I want to download anything on it, I WILL, and you dont get to say a damn word about it! 

He has NO REMORSE. NONE. Just the fact that he gets nervous about his phone and questions your motive is in-your-face PROOF of this. He doesnt care that he hurt you and is looking to do it again. 

GO FILE!!!


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

There as been a change in H the last week or so after a serious discussion. He is being helpful and understanding. He read half of Surviving Affair. He isn't fighting back or blaming me. Really takes all my fight out. H admits he wasn't thinking about what he was risking by resting up with OW even if it was an impersonal quick meeting. This doesn't exactly help me because who wants to be committed to someone who doesn't think about the consequences of his actions.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> The idea that I need to make him feel better and help his ego in order to save my marriage can work. It did work. It saved my marriage last time. I read a book called Your Husbands Midlife Crisis by Sally and Jim Conway. It talked a lot about the needs of men and if you are loving to them they will come back. I am not saying it's all wrong, just that it's terrible advice to codependants. We already very naturally do anything to be loving. This builds up a lot of resentment when it's not returned that comes out in unrelated but punishing ways.
> 
> Trust me 5 years ago I made a perfect fool of myself initially to "get him back." I would tell him something he did everyday that I was grateful for, I tried to read up about his hobbies and talk to him about it, I tried harder to keep the house clean, I lost most of the baby weight that I gained, we still had a sex life back then, he insisted on sleeping on the floor so I did too. He would get mad if I tried to talk to him too much when he got home from work so I would just shut up and give him "cave time." I don't know how long this lasted maybe several months to a couple of years. All I wanted was to spend time together out of the house and to have no yelling or swearing. For the most part I was granted that. I learned about boundaries, codependency, and my narssistic mother, etc.
> 
> 5 years later I am very independent but open to doing things with H. I have boundaries. Some are finainacial and some are personal. I am not sacrificing things that make me happy and I should not have too. Even though I am not as sweet to him as I used to be he is already more invested in saving are marriage than last time. This tells me is likes the independent woman more than the one that caters to him.


He may well prefer independent women but he is still cheating on you. He has trampled over you the last time, you changed and again he trampled on you. He didn't change much he still cheats. How much more are you going to put up with?


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

I really wanted to know that I tried everything I could to save our marriage. I feel that I gave everything I had. If that didn't make him happy then nothing I did ever would. Even though part of me wants to see how far his new remorse goes, it's really all the same story. I already did the R and I don't have another 5 years to "try" again. He says it was a bad idea to meet OW outside of work but it runs deeper.

I don't like to focus on what might be happening behind my back because it just makes me sick. I don't think anything much happened either time but it's still a huge betrayal to me. He intended to leave me with a 6 month old while I cared for his disabled mother and he used the support from OW to give him confidence to do it. Truthfully I lost alot of respect for him after that. Throwing away our current life so he could spend 20 mins helping the same OW is just beyond understanding. He tries to make it sound better by saying he was sure not to start texting her again. Doesn't he know secretly meeting her outside of work is much worse than texting? My H is a very smart guy so this makes no sense. 

He doesn't like me digging into his phone and I hate being with someone I need to do that with. It really doesn't help because there are so many ways to hide it and he can always just talk to her at work. Nothing helps.

The injustice! I supported him through all the tough times in his life and his support was crappy. I supported him ( at least financially) through school, parents dying, military deployment, and now it's mostly behind us. The next girl gets it easy.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She will get someone who doesn't think of the consequences before he acts. She will get someone who will likely cheat on her when the newness wears off and he's bored again. 

You are the one who wins.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Not that he couldn't cheat with her if he weren't working with her but that proximity makes it so much easier. I only thought my ex-husband ended his affair with a woman who reported to him. Far from it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

There is a hard truth that many people don't want to face. People like your husband are broken and toxic. They don't think like you or me. They are not good investment to have long term relationships with. They are basically emotionally retarded. Some with some very hard work can improve but even then for most it seems more like learning cues of behavior like a system they have been taught. Like someone with Aspergers can learn to ask questions and smile to make general conversation. They will never have the same kind of communication that someone without it has. They just follow patterns. They just don't have that ability in them. In the same way people like your husband's main focus will always be on themselves. 

Now I am sure I will be attacked for saying it but go read on any board where cheaters post freely. They just don't think the way you would expect. They struggle daily with the very basics of truthfulness and empathy. Again the very few can change but your husband has proven he is not one of those few. It takes a strong daily commitment. It has to become a part of their identity. Very few people have that in them. Even still you are settling on a life of living with a recovering person. Kind of like living with an alcoholic. There is always the risk of relapse. 

Look up sunk cost fallacy. That is where you are at now. You are wasting your life away expecting something better from someone who doesn't have the ability to give you better. The problem is not his actions it's his nature. Time is a commodity you can never get back. Once it's gone it's gone. It's a commodity you are wasting. 

The good news is there are really good people out there who are good investments to share your life with. Over and over you read post from people who finally decided to leave the person who was abusing them, and over and over they will say they never knew how good life could be without a toxic person as the primary person in their life. 

Someone posted this yesterday. This is not unusual but actually the norm. 



> Thank you all. It wasn't easy at first, I'll be the first to admit but once you taste life, real life, without the threat of being cheated on, there's nothing like it.


Just like these types of posts tend to be the norm if people stay. Others will vehemently disagree but I would ask you how has it worked out for you so far? You have been trying to reconcile, what is your experience? What in my comments here doesn't ring true from your own experience?

Your life won't get better until you give up an leave.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

No it hasnt worked out so far. I think I have lost my anger to disappointment and sadness. Even when he is nice to me it feels fake at this point. I kissed him the other night just to see how it would go. It felt like I was kissing him and he was letting me. Don't remember kissing being so difficult. Our child's birthday is in a few weeks so I am kind of holding out for that. I can almost face divorce if I don't think about losing my H. He will probably be around for our child as much as he is now. We are already co parenting, speaking only a few mins a day most just about that. Trying to focus on having a good co parenting relationship. 

It's painful to break up but it's painful to stay. He doesn't want more kids, he is ok in a sexless marriage and now I can't trust him. It's all too much. I want to think I can be tough enough but I still might end up back were I started anyway. 

There might be other men out there for me but I feel I have to risk just being alone. If I can't be alone then I will jump into another bad relationship. Co dependents find someone else to take advantage.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> He tries to make it sound better by saying he was sure not to start texting her again. Doesn't he know secretly meeting her outside of work is much worse than texting? My H is a very smart guy so this makes no sense.
> 
> The next girl gets it easy.



No. The next girl gets a highly polished turd. You'll get freedom.

My exbf used to do it too: "well you didn't say I couldn't do xy and z, you only said I couldn't do a." It was exhausting. And more important, it was 100% bull****. A healthy and respectful relationship doesn't require such mental gymnastics.


Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> No it hasnt worked out so far. I think I have lost my anger to disappointment and sadness. Even when he is nice to me it feels fake at this point. I kissed him the other night just to see how it would go. It felt like I was kissing him and he was letting me. Don't remember kissing being so difficult. Our child's birthday is in a few weeks so I am kind of holding out for that. I can almost face divorce if I don't think about losing my H. He will probably be around for our child as much as he is now. We are already co parenting, speaking only a few mins a day most just about that. Trying to focus on having a good co parenting relationship.
> 
> It's painful to break up but it's painful to stay. He doesn't want more kids, he is ok in a sexless marriage and now I can't trust him. It's all too much. I want to think I can be tough enough but I still might end up back were I started anyway.
> 
> There might be other men out there for me but I feel I have to risk just being alone. If I can't be alone then I will jump into another bad relationship. Co dependents find someone else to take advantage.


You are on the right track. Better your child grow up in a separated marriage then live in a broken one. This is not usual today and plenty of people have gone through it and lived productive lives with good marriages.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

lucy999 said:


> No. The next girl gets a highly polished turd. You'll get freedom.
> 
> My exbf used to do it too: "well you didn't say I couldn't do xy and z, you only said I couldn't do a." It was exhausting. And more important, it was 100% bull****. A healthy and respectful relationship doesn't require such mental gymnastics.
> 
> ...


THIS THIS THIS.......and so many of us have settled for this crap too, you are young OP, don't do it!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> No it hasnt worked out so far. I think I have lost my anger to disappointment and sadness. Even when he is nice to me it feels fake at this point. I kissed him the other night just to see how it would go. It felt like I was kissing him and he was letting me. Don't remember kissing being so difficult. Our child's birthday is in a few weeks so I am kind of holding out for that. I can almost face divorce if I don't think about losing my H. He will probably be around for our child as much as he is now. We are already co parenting, speaking only a few mins a day most just about that. Trying to focus on having a good co parenting relationship.
> 
> It's painful to break up but it's painful to stay. He doesn't want more kids, he is ok in a sexless marriage and now I can't trust him. It's all too much. I want to think I can be tough enough but I still might end up back were I started anyway.
> 
> There might be other men out there for me but I feel I have to risk just being alone. If I can't be alone then I will jump into another bad relationship. Co dependents find someone else to take advantage.


The Stars, of course you are going into sadness, this happens when you get through the shock, then anger and begin to accept that your relationship is not what it was or what you had hoped for it. Surprisingly after you get through this awareness phase, it will be acceptance and you will be able to move on and upwards. You are now mourning the 'death' of your marriage and the 'death' of the man you thought your WH was.
YOU may not think it but you will be ok, you will extricate yourself from him and do what is right for you.
Keep moving forward.
YOu should seek IC for yourself and make a plan for what you want to do next, see a lawyer, check your options. If your WH is not doing anything to win you back, work on himself, you know this is not going anywhere.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I really wanted to know that I tried everything I could to save our marriage. I feel that I gave everything I had. If that didn't make him happy then nothing I did ever would. Even though part of me wants to see how far his new remorse goes, it's really all the same story. I already did the R and I don't have another 5 years to "try" again. He says it was a bad idea to meet OW outside of work but it runs deeper.
> 
> I don't like to focus on what might be happening behind my back because it just makes me sick. I don't think anything much happened either time but it's still a huge betrayal to me. He intended to leave me with a 6 month old while I cared for his disabled mother and he used the support from OW to give him confidence to do it. Truthfully I lost alot of respect for him after that. Throwing away our current life so he could spend 20 mins helping the same OW is just beyond understanding. He tries to make it sound better by saying he was sure not to start texting her again. Doesn't he know secretly meeting her outside of work is much worse than texting? My H is a very smart guy so this makes no sense.
> 
> ...



Know what you haven't tried? Giving up. 

They say you need to be willing to lose the relationship to save it. Maybe you need to do the walking, and he needs to do the working. Walk away, bare min 6 months. Dont wait for him. Watch him work... You have not tried that. 

Just a suggestion.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

@threelittlestars

The problem with giving up is that it is final. No six months separation just D. I already gave him 5 years to work on our relationship and I already left him once 5 years ago too for 4 months. Seems like his highest priority is to stay near our child not keep me. Not sure that is a good enough reason for me to stay married to him at this point. I told him many times I am not going to keep him from our child be he doesn't believe me.

Maybe it's unconscious but I don't think my H wants to be married to me. That is how he acts and often how he talks. He does just enough, the minimum requirement to keep the status quo. I do try and talk to him about how we are doing because I want us on the same page. He told me yesterday that he is uncertain of our future because he worries about me resenting him. Are you kidding me? He isn't all in right now? It's like he doesn't want to be the bad guy and insist on D so he will make me miserable enough to do it for him. 

I HATE hurting him so it's very hard for me to be direct with him and be final. Maybe I am not communicating effectively. I reminded him as directly as I could that we have so many problems it's going to be very difficult if he isn't all in. Any doubts on his part means no. He has already shown me he is willing to lie and he is willing to keep important secrets from me. Big secrets. Because he is so secretive and private he can't prove his own innocence. Everything is deleted, he does most activities in the incognito mode and with apps to constantly change passwords he can't just hand over access to his devices. I do generally believe what he says happened but I don't think he is honest with himself. He feels bad that he has turned into someone like that. He tries to say meeting with OW was completely innocent and he has no interest in her. 

I know what needs to be done it is just hard. I feel embarrassed and full of shame. Divorce goes against everything I was taught and even the culture of our friends and family. It's humiliating to have my H be so uncertain about me after 15 years. I wonder if I am not pretty enough, thin enough. My personality isn't fun enough. He has criticized me for not breast feeding long enough. H has told me lots of times that he thinks pregnant women are gross. His sex drive really started dying after our child was born. OW is a year older than me and has never had kids. 

I need to separate our finances all the way. H is taking advantage of me paying bills. It would be nice to keep things in limbo until after or child's birthday. Just need to keep my feet on the ground and my head out of the sand. 

Probably should look into IC. Surely the fact I will put up with this is a sign I need lots of help. Married my H at 19 to get away from my narssistic mother.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> @threelittlestars
> 
> The problem with giving up is that it is final. No six months separation just D. I already gave him 5 years to work on our relationship and I already left him once 5 years ago too for 4 months. Seems like his highest priority is to stay near our child not keep me. Not sure that is a good enough reason for me to stay married to him at this point. I told him many times I am not going to keep him from our child be he doesn't believe me.
> 
> ...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I stayed decades longer in my marriage than I should have. Why? I believed him when he said he would change. I wanted my child to grow up with his parents together. There were no divorces in my family and I didn't want to be the first. The list goes on. Was it worth it? My son says not. He wishes I had gotten a divorce after I discovered the first round of cheating. I wish I had too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

threelittlestars said:


> Know what you haven't tried? Giving up.
> 
> They say you need to be willing to lose the relationship to save it. Maybe you need to do the walking, and he needs to do the working. Walk away, bare min 6 months. Don't wait for him. Watch him work... You have not tried that.
> 
> Just a suggestion.


Agreed. The only way you can have a real relationship at this point is giving it up and seeing if he can change.

And if your mom is truly narcissist, you would do better to spend time with a therapist to work on that stuff first, so you'll be better able to tell a good guy from a bad one.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Your marriage that you have described is very much damaged. His efforts so far to be enough of a giver to help you out of your miserable state are very inadequate. The damage that you have is deep and you sound like you do not have the strength to overcome your damage concerning your relationship to your husband even if he does better.

*You are still way to co-dependent and do not have enough self-confidence to start a new life without him.* I would suggest that you totally concentrate on only you and your child and do not put any more of your strength in trying to see about getting the marriage better…You are approaching the state of being that it will boil down to him or you. *You have to choose if you are going to do what you have to do to get yourself strong enough to be independent or you will slowly deteriorate into a door mat and not be much good to yourself, your child, one anyone else.* It is time for you to be totally selfish in building yourself back up after your husband has torn you down to the ground. Your husband is not going to build you up so it is up to you. Get all the help that you can and make a short range and long range plan for you to be much more independent. You do not have to accomplish all your strength in a month or two as it may take a year or two. You are young and have a lot of life left so make time be your friend. Millions of women have done it and so can you. 

Your current life is very unfulfilling and you are starved for real affection and support. I do not see your life getting any better as long as you are involved with your husband who is more of a taker than a giver.
The bottom line is that you must get the proper help and then commit to doing what you have to do so you can get a LOT better.

*Do you have a short range and a long range plan?*


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Thank you for your responses. I do have a short term plan. I want to separate finances and focus on paying down some debt. We can pay down debt better if my H stays in our house. He does do a lot of childcare so it's convenient too. I am concerned because we might fall into a routine that will be hard to break down the road but that's where we are. 

A separation living together? Does that sound possible? It's not much different than what we have been doing the last year anyway. I just need to give up trying to fix our marriage or monitoring him at all. It will only make living together harder if I discover any new secrets. I am going to be reading more about co dependence and look for IC. Just started a good book called Will I Ever Be Good Enough? For daughters of narssist mothers. It's very helpful so far. 

Long term planning is beyond what I can think about. I imagine about 6 months to pay down debts and maybe divorce can be started during that time. My H is still coming to terms with the realization that I am not letting this slide like I let everything slide.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I just discovered this guy today. Bookmarked him so I can start learning from him. Good stuff on narcissism and toxic shame.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMOF2orDuo25yvGi2wK0RnHwE00eA35iO


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Will you AT LEAST demand that he see no other women while living there? And that if you catch him doing so, he leaves immediately?


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

There are lots of good channels on YouTube I have been following. The link you sent didn't work. 

I can't check up on him, it's too hard and pulls me back into all the drama. Need to 180 as much as I can.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I didn't say to check up on him. I said to demand that - in order for him to GET to stay in your home after what he did - HE MUST NOT CHEAT.

It's not that hard a concept for him to get. He can either STOP CHEATING or he can go out on the streets and figure out how to put a roof over his head. Cuz the money from working will be going to you and the kids. Your lawyer will see to that.

But nobody can make this happen except YOU. 

It's time for you to put on your big girl pants and do what an ADULT and a MOTHER would do: protect her family from a predator.

And right now, HE is the predator. 

If you have to ask for the help of your family and friends, his family, your priest, the tooth fairy, I don't care. Just make it happen.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> There are lots of good channels on YouTube I have been following. The link you sent didn't work.
> 
> I can't check up on him, it's too hard and pulls me back into all the drama. Need to 180 as much as I can.


Try this link: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=spartanlifecoach+narcissism


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

I know I am writing in two theads now so I should move to the other thread in the divorcing section called Really? Limbo? 

I just wanted to share that I accidentally on purpose found the old text messages from my H to the OW. It was very triggering because they made references to meeting on a cold night, my H said he felt so "high" after their time together, if her BF was suspicious about her going out and when she downloaded some kind of software on their computer, my H admiring her passion for life and complaining about how I am afraid of everything. It was good I found it because it really motivated me to end it with my H. They were kind of mocking her BF. OW asked if I was suspicious. He was texting me, making plans to meet up with our friends, and texting her at the same time. So messed up. It's been a terrible roller coaster. Anytime I start to change my mind I am re reading email. 

My H was using some kind of google voice with different number. Not sure if the texts I found where on the phone bill. Google voice app is a red flag. 

I have been doing really well to focus on divorcing and it feels like I am sliding backward.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> I just discovered this guy today. Bookmarked him so I can start learning from him. Good stuff on narcissism and toxic shame.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMOF2orDuo25yvGi2wK0RnHwE00eA35iO


It's not showing up but I follow so many people on YouTube about narssism and co dependency I wonder if I have seen him. Just write in the channel and I will look it up, thanks!

Btw, other channels/podcasts about codependancy and narssism that I have liked include. They do help a lot. 
Pandoras Box with Kaleah (YouTube and podcast)
Awaken with JP (YouTube)
Kati Morton (YouTube)
Lisa A Romano Break through life coach (YouTube)
Richard Grannon (YouTube)


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestars are falling, how are you? Stick to your guns, you are doing well. You will have ups and downs, but that is par for the course, stick to what you are doing and you will get through this.

Incidentally, did you ever tell OW's boyfriend about all of this, you should. He ought to know what his GF is doing behind his back.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

aine said:


> Thestars are falling, how are you? Stick to your guns, you are doing well. You will have ups and downs, but that is par for the course, stick to what you are doing and you will get through this.
> 
> Incidentally, did you ever tell OW's boyfriend about all of this, you should. He ought to know what his GF is doing behind his back.


Thanks for asking. My H says the OW and her BF broke up recently. In my crazy suspicions I wonder if the BF found out about my H and broke it off. Don't know. Trying not to care. When I looked the old messages over from 5 years ago they were almost mocking him for trusting her so much. Feel bad that I never told him because if he found something out I would have wanted him to tell me. 

The fact that they recently broke up and my H wanted to take time out of work to "help her shop" makes it more suspicious. 

I am pretty emotional but better today. The last few days I could hide how upset I was because I was crying most of the day. H was nice about it but it's not helping me detatch. Last time I kept having doubts about D. Pretty sure that is expected and I shouldn't listen to it. I looked up the phone bill but now I don't know if I could ask H about numbers right now. Maybe if I found new evidence it would help me feel better about my decision to D. 

My H is being really good about D and giving me space to cope. He is doing more around the house and with our kid. He isn't defending himself but keeps asking how I am. I don't want to do anything to mess up our new relationship since we have to be around each other for a while. Don't know if I can really detatch while still living with him.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Some people can face the reality of a dead relationship and just put everyone out of their misery. There are epic threads here and on other sites where the BS simply said 'no' and walked away into a new life. It was painful, but they come back to tell us that they did the right thing.

And then there are most of us, who can't cut the cord until our hearts are aligned with our heads. We think we can't do the hard thing, which is find the courage to end it. We are simply too fearful.

I get this. I have made plenty of decisions in my life that in retrospect I think were fueled by fear. What is true for me, though, is that living endlessly in the fear is harder than just making the decision and getting on with my life.

Otherwise, you are taking this to the bitter end when you are finally literally disgusted by him and happy to move on. At this point, your heart isn’t afraid anymore, but what have you done to your life? Life is not forever. By this time, you’ve eaten up years of potential happiness and contentment with the pain of living with a liar.

I think you can decide now to file and go or you can keep hemming and hawing. The end result is the same – you are no longer living with the husband who is unable to honor you

In-house separation? Waiting endlessly to get the famous ducks in a row? I certainly understand the issues of finances and logistics, but often these are excuses to continue to live in the fear.

What I most wish for you now is courage. As the famous Chumplady says, ‘Dump a cheater, gain a life.’ So very, very true. Why are you living in continuous pain because of him? Dump him decisively now.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

^This, so much this. 

I get the same impression. You dont want to let go. These ducks, are excuses (I THINK) to stay around him. Its fair to be afraid. Call it what it is. Its easier to face a fear you are no longer denying.

"We have to be around each other...." "Just until...." "Logistically its just not possible...." are flimsy excuses. There is a door, he should march his way out of it, and allow you to move on with your life. He is not being NICE, he is taking advantage of your weaknesses in regards to (Your Logistic reasons and feelings for him) its in his best interest to do it this way....and im telling you its not in your best interest... 

But we all must do things our own way, and have our own moments of clarity and epiphanies. Trust me, once your roller coaster stops you will have a butt load of regrets on how this is all handled. (I know i have) But hopefully when you are reflecting you will still be free of this terrible state you are in. 

I so wish you would see that your life is better without this treatment. 'just for a few more months' is awful...pain and anguish you could spare yourself. No amount of money, or ducks in a row is worth that in my book, but we all have our limits... 

Strength to you.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Yes. It's true that I have been holding on. We had the big D talk 2 weeks ago and I held strong but then doubt started in. I told my H I was having doubts and wondered if we could at least try to talk things out. Mistake! He told me that he doesn't want me having this to hold over his head and is sure I won't ever trust him. H makes it sound like my insecurities and paranoia are are annoying and he would rather not deal with it. Then he gets excited at the idea of apartment living on his own with "freedom" to do whatever he wants like white water rafting. He is taking over the D like it was his idea, says he wants our stories to match before he will tell his friends and family. 

Pretty sure my doubts about our marriage are coming from my doubts about me keeping the house alone and what I will do with our kid. I need to make new dreams to replan a future. I don't even know what city to live in and my heart breaks for our child to have so much uncertainty. H says he will support me financially to stay in the house but it still worries me.

Living together makes it hard because he still tells me about his day and eats the food I bought. It's like we are married not broken up.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Welp, he certainly made THAT easier! What a piece of crap he is! He wants your stories to match?? WHY so no one finds out he is a piece of **** cheater?? No more doubts here, stars, he needs to GTFO.


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## BlueandBlond (Jun 20, 2016)

Do you not think that you are done? It really sounds like you have found yourself and you are ready to move on. I wouldn't worry about him as he doesn't seem to worry about you. If you are in a happier, stable environment then your child will be happier too. Think what your child is seeing (or not seeing which can be just as damaging). I have been in your position and with some planning you will be able to move forward. Don't let him be in control. You need to be in control.


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## ILoveSparkles (Oct 28, 2013)

He wants the stories to "match" so that he comes out of this smelling like roses, and doesn't end up being the bad guy. He's only protecting himself. Besides, even if you two agree on a story, whose to say that he may change his mind and throw you under the bus?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

His enthusiasm about moving on tells you all you need to know. He doesn't care that you're now wavering -- far from it. Now that he's used to the idea of divorce, he sees it as a golden opportunity. Believe him. 

As to coordinating stories, that obviously only benefits him so he doesn't look like the bad guy. He'll probably want the story to be that you've grown apart and it's no one's fault. Don't do it.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Chuck him out. Make him face the music of his so called life. You are going to come out of this, it may take time, but you got to see...He does not care a whit about you. Thats gotta hurt... But know this. yOu are loveable, valuable, and worthy of a GOOD man. This man is not that.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

OMG your WH is a POS!

Dont let this be easy for him
Tell everyone now what is happening and what he did!

Do the 180 on him and stop the pandering to him immediately.
Have no contact with him, stay in your own room, unless it is to do with the kid.

Tell him there will be no matching of 'stories' you are telling everyone the truth also including about 5 years ago and how he lied and cheated.

Incidentally, how do you know he is not lying about OW and her BF splitting up. Pls confirm and tell BF if they are still together. YOu should not take the word of your liar of a WH.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Openminded said:


> His enthusiasm about moving on tells you all you need to know. He doesn't care that you're now wavering -- far from it. Now that he's used to the idea of divorce, he sees it as a golden opportunity. Believe him.
> 
> As to coordinating stories, that obviously only benefits him so he doesn't look like the bad guy. He'll probably want the story to be that you've grown apart and it's no one's fault. Don't do it.


It's true! Still hurts. . .


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> It's true! Still hurts. . .


Yes, it does hurt. And it will for awhile. But not forever. 

Be glad you found out now and not decades down the road (as I did). 

You'll get through this.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

aine said:


> OMG your WH is a POS!
> 
> Dont let this be easy for him
> Tell everyone now what is happening and what he did!
> ...


I have been trying to do The 180 as much as I can the last 2 days. (Since our last discussion) I try to avoid talking to him unless about child. There have been a few times I slipped and had a friendly conversation. 

I don't see any benefit tme to tell everyone about what he did. He had been trying to turn it around the last few talks to make it seem like he wants a divorce for the "freedom" so I think his spin will be about that. I want more kids and he doesn't. My H hads very little family and most of our friends are really his friends. After the divorce I doubt I will see them anymore. I will start telling my friends and family more after the divorce. Maybe. It is true I don't want my child to over hear it or it get back to him before he is able to understand it.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

In the past couple of years there have been a few times I wanted out and I swore if something happened to make my H leave I would not do anything to stop him. Last time calling the OW put a stop (or pushed it underground, who knows?) to it and made my H stop trying to leave. When reading about co dependents/narc relationships that sounded like the best way to end things.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Wish I could sleep as well as H does. I think I am cycling through the stages of grief. I get angry and suspicious then depressed. Then I get hopeful I can get H to agree to R. Pretty sure that is the bargaining stage which is the worst. I want to talk to him so bad about our relationship or text him during that stage. Then I go back to depression then anger again. A podcast I am listening to suggested that having even a friendship and frequent contact with H can slow down the grieving process. That is probably happening here.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you in no contact?


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> Are you in no contact?



I live with him. I have been trying to avoid as much as I can. He hasn't told anyone and that is bothering me. Seems cake eating to me. We had a birthday party for our child and he just went along with his family like nothing is going on. Irritating. 

My H says he will take over 100% of our debts while he stays in the house. I told him he had a couple of months then he needs to leave. It's not the best but I want him happy while we divorce so he will agree to stuff. Someone posted on Chump lady that you should divorce fast because guilt doesn't last forever.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, that's right. Sorry. 'Wanting him happy' so he'll agree to give you stuff is not in your best interests. He's not going to leave unless you make him. You don't want him to leave until you've got a lawyer ironing out LEGALLY what he owes his family. Basically, this is all on you. And that poster is right - he won't remain guilty for long. That's why you need to get to your lawyer TOMORROW.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Originally Posted* by GuyInColorado *
> How solid is your marriage? How often do you kiss, touch, and have sex?
> 
> Originally *Posted by Thestarsarefalling*
> ...





At this point your marriage does not have a chance at being good. You have a few choices:

1	You can continue to try and cope with your miserable marriage and experience some more of what you have experiences for the last several years.

2	You can put all your efforts into addressing your number one problem of being too co-dependent so that you can get much stronger and able to do what you know to be right for yourself. *Stop focusing on anything except for you to get stronger; especially emotionally so that you can have a better life!*


You seem weak and unable emotionally to get out of a relationship that you describe as “very bad” and embarrassing awful.

I know that a divorce will cost you some of your comforts and financially but your biggest problem is you are still too co-dependant and you are compromising big time to avoid facing reality. You are prolonging the fact that your marriage will be even more miserable if you remain emotionally codependent on your husband.


> *Originally Posted by Thestarsarefalling*
> 
> I am much less codependent than I used to be but still have so much more to improve.
> I am going to be reading more about co dependence and look for IC.


*How has that been going?*


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Mr Blunt said:


> > Originally Posted* by GuyInColorado *
> > How solid is your marriage? How often do you kiss, touch, and have sex?
> >
> > Originally *Posted by Thestarsarefalling*
> ...


We have not tried to R and that does not seem to be on the table. We have talked about assets and how and when to separate. He is being helpful around the house and with Childcare. I don't trust this. 

I have been listening and reading about divorce and unhealthy cycles. The more I pull away emotionally the more I don't like him and it makes me sad. I am still vulnerable to him trying to R but I don't tell him this and he doesn't try. Sometimes it seems like I am the only one grieving and processing. I get periods of time that I want to try and talk things out with him but I don't. I feel a little stronger each time I manage to stop myself from seeking him out. I probably lost my H a while ago and now I loose my best friend and main support. This is the second time he has acted in a way that turns our life upside down and risks our whole world together and I have to get off this crazy train. 

At the moment I feel like I potential have my H cornered. He wants people to think well of him and he wants our son to think well of him. He wants his credit score to be great. This makes no sense to me compared to trashing a marriage but there it is. I told him what I would do if he doesn't be nice. That is walk away from all the financial obligations we have together. It would be hard but I would recover. I have a good paying job and I know people would help me if I swallow my pride and ask. Plus H doesn't want me to take our son far away where my family lives. I have told him that if he is supportive then I have no reason to go. My job is here. 

Don't know if my H really thinks about how our lives will separate and change over time but that isn't my problem. 

I need to get a move on getting a paralegal picked out and paperwork ready while my H seems willing. It just feels so final but I am making progress to detach.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Is it ironic that I am a terrible secret keeper? I let it slip that have his old text messages that are pretty damning. He was upset since he seemed to think I deleted it and I thought I had. Luckily I outsmarted myself and sent it to multiple emails. Oops. Pretty sure he wants me to keep quiet and I will for now. Revenge is tempting but honestly it would just make me look pathetic and make H want to fight.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's good that he knows.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm glad you are ending the cycle.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Is it ironic that I am a terrible secret keeper? I let it slip that have his old text messages that are pretty damning. He was upset since he seemed to think I deleted it and I thought I had. Luckily I outsmarted myself and sent it to multiple emails. Oops. Pretty sure he wants me to keep quiet and I will for now. *Revenge is tempting but honestly it would just make me look pathetic and make H want to fight.*


Let him fight. 

Then call the cops and have his sorry butt thrown in the can. Then file a DV charge against him and file for a protection order. Shake up his world and make him feel some fear. 


Or not....:wink2:


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> I'm glad you are ending the cycle.


Haha!


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

I have been avoiding and interacting with my Stbx for a couple of days now and keeping my grief/anger/bargaining to myself. This has giving me an insight to my marriage. My h was deployed for a year, 7 years ago and I feel that was a turning point. He went no contact with me for a year over the deployment and the letters and phone calls were not enough to keep him attached to me. Huge red flags happened after he got home but I refused to see them. He would complain about things I had no control over like it was a reason I failed him. (The housing market) He would tell me he was so depressed and tired because the dishes needed to be done. It was like a personal attack on him if I didn't vaccum. I like a clean house too but this was personal. I don't understand it. He tries to get me to throw away my stuff like I am a hoarder. I have two boxes of personal items and all my clothes fit in the closet with room to spare. Our house is pretty clean. He isn't correct. Guess that's gaslighting. We got pregnant pretty soon after he came home and of course D day1 happened 4 months after I gave birth. His mood swings are better no but he isn't invested in our relationship and dd2 shows it. I wonder if H could of had an affair or EA during the deployment. Now that I know the warning signs it seems possible. This is all so depressing and pathetic I keep trying for 7 years! It makes me want to confront him and ask. Good idea or bad idea?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Don't bother. He won't tell you the truth anyway. Just move forward with what you need to do.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

turnera said:


> Don't bother. He won't tell you the truth anyway. Just move forward with what you need to do.


:iagree:

It wouldnt make a difference at this point, except to make you that much more resentful. You can hold your head up knowing that you were the one putting in the effort all this time either way.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Thanks, I knew the answer but it's nice to feel less alone in it. I hired an attorney today.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Good job. Rooting for you


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> Thanks, I knew the answer but it's nice to feel less alone in it. *I hired an attorney today. *




You are going to suffer emotionally for a while but next year you will wonder why you were attached to him. Your husband is NOT providing you with much of anything that builds a marriage; in fact he is mostly tearing you down. You sound like a very good woman and can have a much better life in the future.

Be prepared, just in case he wants to talk about R after you take some serious steps in ending the relationship. He may realize that he will gain more if you stay but he sounds like a man that is all about himself and not you. *Make sure your head rules your decisions and not your co-dependent emotions!*


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Mr Blunt said:


> [/B]
> 
> You are going to suffer emotionally for a while but next year you will wonder why you were attached to him. Your husband is NOT providing you with much of anything that builds a marriage; in fact he is mostly tearing you down. You sound like a very good woman and can have a much better life in the future.
> 
> Be prepared, just in case he wants to talk about R after you take some serious steps in ending the relationship. He may realize that he will gain more if you stay but he sounds like a man that is all about himself and not you. *Make sure your head rules your decisions and not your co-dependent emotions!*


I am trying to prepare myself for him to start seeing OW. Maybe if that fails he might come around to R. He hasn't told anyone that I know if because he knows friends and family aren't going to be happy with him. Not sure what story he will spin about me since the stories he tells me sound weak. Trying to not care because I don't need those people in my life very much anyway. I am sure he would date the OW if she was willing. He says she isn't interested, says I scared her off. I don't have any reason to believe him. If I have learned anything from reading other posts here it is that this isn't a unique situation and people all seem to follow similar patterns as other people.

He is still being extra nice, doing things around the house, etc. I can't imagine him saying or doing anything that would really make our marriage better. He lied and lied again. I am really hurt that he has acted so willing to divorce like it means nothing to him. It's like another layer of betrayal. That isn't going away.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I am trying to prepare myself for him to start seeing OW. Maybe if that fails he might come around to R. He hasn't told anyone that I know if because he knows friends and family aren't going to be happy with him. Not sure what story he will spin about me since the stories he tells me sound weak. Trying to not care because I don't need those people in my life very much anyway. I am sure he would date the OW if she was willing. He says she isn't interested, says I scared her off. I don't have any reason to believe him. If I have learned anything from reading other posts here it is that this isn't a unique situation and people all seem to follow similar patterns as other people.
> 
> He is still being extra nice, doing things around the house, etc. I can't imagine him saying or doing anything that would really make our marriage better. He lied and lied again. I am really hurt that he has acted so willing to divorce like it means nothing to him. It's like another layer of betrayal. That isn't going away.


So sorry Starsarefalling, but he is showing you actually who he is. Loving someone can hurt but that does not mean you have to feel like this forever. Your WH may well be making a huge mistake but that is his problem. You have to move on for youself. You will heal and you will be happy.
"When someone shows you who they are the first time, believe them."


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He's finding it easy to walk away because he wasn't really invested in R the first time the way you were. You will probably find down the road that they're dating (and have been all along) but if that happens he'll play it as though they only started dating after you told him you wanted a divorce. 

He may decide at some point to come back if he discovers his life on the outside isn't nearly as comfy or fun or easy as he anticipated. Then he may want to R. Don't do it or you'll be repeating this cycle again and again.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why haven't you exposed?


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

turnera said:


> Why haven't you exposed?


Yes, why haven't you? I think many posrs advised you to do this already. At least it will stop him rewriting history and give him some things to think about. Why are you covering for him? Are you worried that there would be no chance of reconciliation? That is the wrong thinking, he has no respect for you now, that is why he repeated the cheating.
Show him that you mean business.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> He is taking over the D like it was his idea, says he wants our stories to match before he will tell his friends and family.
> 
> I am really hurt that he has acted so willing to divorce like it means nothing to him. It's like another layer of betrayal. That isn't going away.


It seem like you are getting strong enough or are forced to get divorce going. You are also very hurt and prone to not vigorously do what you know you have to do. I will repeat what I said in my previous post

*



“Make sure your head rules your decisions and not your co-dependent emotions!

Click to expand...

*You are a good woman that has endured enormous rejections yet you did not cheat on him and still believed in true love. Your husband does not love you like you need him to be loved and that has the potential to destroy a lot of what is good in you. YOU MUST GET THE D!



> I know therapy would be good for me but I haven't got around to it yet.
> Probably should look into IC. Surely the fact I will put up with this is a sign I need lots of help. Married my H at 19 to get away from my narcissistic mother.


*How much help have you got so that you can build yourself back up?* If you have not sought out every possible help that you can so that you can get stronger and less co-dependent on your loveless husband, *WHY NOT?* Almost everyone on this thread likes you, knows that you have been abused emotionally, and feels for you deeply but that is not good enough for you to get a much better life. You have to FORCE yourself to get all the help that is available so that you can have a much better life for you and your child. You have been weakened considerably by your husband and your procrastination and need more help than we can give you.

*You can recover and have a good life. Millions of women have done that, some in much worse shape than you, and so can you!*


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> Why haven't you exposed?


To be honest, I don't know. To me there are two issues. 1) exposing possible affair. 2) telling people we are breaking up. I haven't done either except my sister. Maybe I am not ready to talk about it with most people? I don't look forward to hearing that they are sorry? I have been there before and can't say it made me feel better. It's embarrassing and shameful to me. I don't know what to tell people about how and why. My husband has not participated in our social life for a while so I bet most people wouldn't even notice him gone. I might start telling neighbors/church group after he leaves. Maybe I am afraid he will get mad and stop being good about divorcing. Maybe I fear exposing will impact our child. I don't know what I get out of exposing but I am sure it will make this harder for me. 

I have exposed before and I can't say it was a helpful experience. Yes it shamed and embarrassed him into staying with me. I don't want to do anything to make him stay. I don't want to do anything to make our relationship worse or strained for our child's sake. I have made a plan on how to divorce and have a lawyer. I plan to take a couple of weeks filling out divorce papers and have a lawyer look it over. If I file it in June, it could be over in September. If he has regrets down the road after we are divorced, I can't help it. I am not remarrying the man.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

aine said:


> Yes, why haven't you? I think many posrs advised you to do this already. At least it will stop him rewriting history and give him some things to think about. Why are you covering for him? Are you worried that there would be no chance of reconciliation? That is the wrong thinking, he has no respect for you now, that is why he repeated the cheating.
> Show him that you mean business.



I don't know. I am not exposing because I get anything out of it but other people's pity. Also I get an enraged stbx. When I exposed before my H did scare me a little and he still brings it up like telling his friends and family was me betraying him. I get nothing out of exposing. If I wanted to save my marriage then I could see how exposing would make him too embarrassed to leave. Been there done that. 

I am still digesting what and who to tell people. I am sure part of the reason I am not telling people is because a small part of me wants to R. Everyday that part gets smaller and smaller. If what he said was true about innocently meeting his previous EA, that would be bad. The betrayal of giving up without so much as an effort to me is worse than the act that put us here. That is assuming he is being truthful. I don't have even a reason to believe that.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Mr Blunt said:


> *How much help have you got so that you can build yourself back up?* If you have not sought out every possible help that you can so that you can get stronger and less co-dependent on your loveless husband, *WHY NOT?* Almost everyone on this thread likes you, knows that you have been abused emotionally, and feels for you deeply but that is not good enough for you to get a much better life. You have to FORCE yourself to get all the help that is available so that you can have a much better life for you and your child. You have been weakened considerably by your husband and your procrastination and need more help than we can give you.
> 
> *You can recover and have a good life. Millions of women have done that, some in much worse shape than you, and so can you!*




I appreciate the kindness of everyone here. It has really helped me to stay the course and not give in. I need people to keep pushing me forward. Now that I think about it most of my friends and family encouraged R last time. Maybe I don't want to tell anyone until I am emotionally strong enough to disagree with them or the divorce is final. TAM might be the only voice of sanity. I did tell my sister because I knew she would be against R. I only want people who I know will support my decision to divorce to know about it for now.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You are CHOOSING to see people being concerned about you if you expose as pity. You could look at it like just genuine concern and care for you. Seeing it as pity sounds a bit like shame, and you have no reason to feel shame. Maybe it would help you. Nevertheless, telling people what's going on would keep you from enduring pain after pain when you run into people who don't know. If nothing else, maybe considering posting a brief message on FB and ask people not to talk to you about it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I have thought for awhile that you would R if he begged you to -- and part of you still hopes he will. But he didn't really want to R with you the first time -- and did it for the wrong reason. It would very likely be the same this time around. So push that thought away when it surfaces. It would be a mistake and you would probably be back here sooner rather than later. 

When I decided to R with my husband after DD1, I told no one. I was very embarrassed that I was going to R with a cheater and I didn't want friends and family to know. Decades later, I decided to divorce after DD2. And I decided to tell everyone why I was divorcing because I was ending a very long marriage. I knew they would all be opposed and try to convince me to stay. And they did. My response to everyone was "It's my life." I had to repeat that many times before they stopped pressuring me. If you don't want to discuss it, tell them you don't want to. You will probably have to be very direct with some (I did) to get them to back off but at the end of the day you don't owe anyone an explanation for your actions. It's your life.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Openminded said:


> I have thought for awhile that you would R if he begged you to -- and part of you still hopes he will. But he didn't really want to R with you the first time -- and did it for the wrong reason. It would very likely be the same this time around. So push that thought away when it surfaces. It would be a mistake and you would probably be back here sooner rather than later.
> 
> When I decided to R with my husband after DD1, I told no one. I was very embarrassed that I was going to R with a cheater and I didn't want friends and family to know. Decades later, I decided to divorce after DD2. And I decided to tell everyone why I was divorcing because I was ending a very long marriage. I knew they would all be opposed and try to convince me to stay. And they did. My response to everyone was "It's my life." I had to repeat that many times before they stopped pressuring me. If you don't want to discuss it, tell them you don't want to. You will probably have to be very direct with some (I did) to get them to back off but at the end of the day you don't owe anyone an explanation for your actions. It's your life.


I seriously cannot understand what the hell people are thinking when they try to push someone to stay with a cheating spouse. To me, it shows zero respect to the betrayed person. Why would they not want better for you?? Especially after it happens more than once.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I appreciate the kindness of everyone here. It has really helped me to stay the course and not give in. I need people to keep pushing me forward. Now that I think about it most of my friends and family encouraged R last time. Maybe I don't want to tell anyone until I am emotionally strong enough to disagree with them or the divorce is final. TAM might be the only voice of sanity. I did tell my sister because I knew she would be against R. I only want people who I know will support my decision to divorce to know about it for now.


I can understand this. As much as I would love to see his lying ass exposed to everyone, I get where you are right now. If anyone asks, I wouldnt suggest making something up, you can be honest without divulging gory detail. You can say, "there was another woman who he decided was more important than me." That tells people what happened, and will probably stop them from more questions. With my last divorce, when people asked me what happened, all I had to say was "he decided he'd rather be married to his first wife than me" and that stopped people pretty much dead, except to tell me how sorry they were.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

3Xnocharm said:


> I can understand this. As much as I would love to see his lying ass exposed to everyone, I get where you are right now. If anyone asks, I wouldnt suggest making something up, you can be honest without divulging gory detail. You can say, "there was another woman who he decided was more important than me." That tells people what happened, and will probably stop them from more questions. With my last divorce, when people asked me what happened, all I had to say was "he decided he'd rather be married to his first wife than me" and that stopped people pretty much dead, except to tell me how sorry they were.




I agree with this and understand that you are not strong enough to push back on others like some women on TAM are. It's good that you are self aware so stay the course.

There are many ways to say what @3Xnocharm is suggesting and you can be very subtle and people should get the picture and back off. If you want to start with "a marriage can't work if only one person wants it", escalating to "3 people in my marriage was just one too many"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

TheTruthHurts said:


> I agree with this and understand that you are not strong enough to push back on others like some women on TAM are. It's good that you are self aware so stay the course.
> 
> There are many ways to say what @3Xnocharm is suggesting and you can be very subtle and people should get the picture and back off. If you want to start with "a marriage can't work if only one person wants it", escalating to "3 people in my marriage was just one too many"
> 
> ...


I believe that being honest is the key (no need to beat around the bush, be subtle, etc). Be frank, people appreciate it more. e.g. 'after over 5 years of having someone else in my marriage, thought it was time to give him what he wants.'


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

One step forward, two steps back. I told another family member who was there for me last time and knew what I went through then. We cried together. Then I had to go open my big mouth and ask how my H was doing with the divorce. He plays his cards close and didn't reveal much except his silly reasons for wanting a divorce. Maybe that is disrespectful to call his reasons silly but they are. The house is cluttered, I rolled my eyes once at him, He seemed surprised I was angry and even more surprised I was angry about OW and I was angry about the possibility of him dating her when our divorce is final. He told me I was being ridiculous but if he does date her later he can. It has nothing to do with is ending our marriage. Gaslighting anyone?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You keep giving him openings to admit he wants to change his mind about the divorce but he isn't interested. You should be glad he isn't because otherwise you'd be repeating this a third time down the road. Of course, he's going to date her. She's been in the picture all along while you thought you were in R. And, no, he's not going to admit she's the cause of the divorce. He's rewriting your marital history the way cheaters do. They can justify anything. Let it go.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Openminded said:


> You keep giving him openings to admit he wants to change his mind about the divorce but he isn't interested. You should be glad he isn't because otherwise you'd be repeating this a third time down the road. Of course, he's going to date her. She's been in the picture all along while you thought you were in R. And, no, he's not going to admit she's the cause of the divorce. He's rewriting your marital history the way cheaters do. They can justify anything. Let it go.


*sigh*. I know. Today I started filling out the divorce papers and I think I hit a breaking point. It wanted me to list a reason for irreconcilable differences. He is a jerk? We value fidelity differently? He lies too much? My husband is confused about what marriage is? Do I want to accurately tell the court. I was unaware I have to expose my reasons. 

My H accidentally paid the mortgage. I was supposed to take it over and he was supposed to pay down mutual debt. He wants me to give him the money back for his own financial security and not toward mutual debt. He wants to make sure he has a security deposit for an apt, etc. It's one thing to scrape money together to give to the bank. It feels like another to give it to him. Our plan was for him to stay a couple of months to pay down debt but that has apparently become a lower priority. He is willing to take from my security to ensure his own security. I am not shocked but disappointed and angry. If he doesn't care to contribute to the household this month then why is he here? I need to kick him out.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*"She makes him feel so good," huh?

Tell him that it will feel really good to you when the front door of your house bruisingly slams into the backside of his fat posterior on the way out!

So exactly what is the "learning experience" in this behavior of his for your young, impressionable daughter?

I'd lose him like a bad habit! You and your daughter deserve far, far better out of life!*


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> *sigh*. I know. Today I started filling out the divorce papers and I think I hit a breaking point. It wanted me to list a reason for irreconcilable differences. He is a jerk? We value fidelity differently? He lies too much? My husband is confused about what marriage is? Do I want to accurately tell the court. I was unaware I have to expose my reasons.


Check with an attorney or research online. In some states, you have to prove physical infidelity if you list it as a reason the marriage broke down. It's common to list other reasons in cases of infidelity due to lack of actual hard evidence of infidelity.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

YOU SHOULD kick him out. We have been saying that for a while now because he is taking advantage of you left and right. This is not about your mutual money security, its all about him. You need to be all about YOU. now! Tell him to get the hell out NOW. 

Im so sorry.... But you need to do this, otherwise you will be so angry at yourself later.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

I did tell him to find an apartment asap. He agreed but doesn't like the rush. It's not all bad because he is helping around the house and helping with our child. It's not all good because I get angry with him. I am supposed to be a grey rock but I did get into a good fight with him. 

I told him to sell all his dumb "toys". One is a telescope he bought during his EA 5 years ago. OW told him how much she enjoyed stargazing together and how she was trying to read up about astronomy so she could talk to him about it without seeming dumb. H said he had no memory of that ever happening so I copied a section of the text they exchanged and sent it to him. He still couldn't remember anything about it but was angry that I had those message anyway since I told him it was deleted. 

Just another helpful reminder to stay the course.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yeah, cheaters often have convenient memories -- and they hate proof they're lying.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You shouldn't have allowed him to keep it in the first place. Boundaries.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> You shouldn't have allowed him to keep it in the first place. Boundaries.


Oh, I don't think I have ever been allowed to have boundaries. Ever. I did read lots of marriage books and eventually found my way to books about boundaries about 2 or 3 years ago. It's still sinking in. I can say that my H lying to me about meeting up with OW is a boundary violation even if "nothing happened". My H convincing me to stop doing something that was making me happy is a boundary violation. 

Don't get me started on my needs. I have no idea. Pretty sure I have a need to have people be honest with me.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Openminded said:


> Yeah, cheaters often have convenient memories -- and they hate proof they're lying.


I decided it's a kind of gaslighting. H can convince me it was all a friendly misunderstanding, I am paranoid. He can tell friends and family that I am making it all up. Make me seem crazy. Poor H was innocently accused. Having physical proof keeps him from lying. Truthfully it isn't going to matter much to me because we aren't close to his family. Sure it bothers me what they will say about me but I don't have to see them at all. I am going to stay out of it with them. 

His friends are going to distance themselves from him no matter what. Divorce is contagious, his friends have similar personalities. It would be nice to know it didn't have anything to do with me.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Oh, I don't think I have ever been allowed to have boundaries. Ever. I did read lots of marriage books and eventually found my way to books about boundaries about 2 or 3 years ago. It's still sinking in. I can say that my H lying to me about meeting up with OW is a boundary violation even if "nothing happened". My H convincing me to stop doing something that was making me happy is a boundary violation.
> 
> Don't get me started on my needs. I have no idea. Pretty sure I have a need to have people be honest with me.


The bedrock of every marriage is trust (yes I know compatibility, sexual attraction, etc are all important). Trust comes from being confident your spouse is always honest and transparent with you. Lying erodes trust big time. Your WH has been eroding the bedrock of your marriage for years with his lying, gas lighting, etc. Everyone has a need for their spouse to be honest.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Oh, I don't think I have ever been allowed to have boundaries. Ever. I did read lots of marriage books and eventually found my way to books about boundaries about 2 or 3 years ago. It's still sinking in. I can say that my H lying to me about meeting up with OW is a boundary violation even if "nothing happened". My H convincing me to stop doing something that was making me happy is a boundary violation.
> 
> Don't get me started on my needs. I have no idea. Pretty sure I have a need to have people be honest with me.


Hun, "allowing" has nothing to do with it. 

You either have boundaries or you do not. You either exact them or ignore them and get walked over. 

What I think you mean is that your boundaries were never respected, THAT makes a lot of sense, but no one can control whether you have them or not. They're all yours.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Satya said:


> Thestarsarefalling said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, I don't think I have ever been allowed to have boundaries. Ever. I did read lots of marriage books and eventually found my way to books about boundaries about 2 or 3 years ago. It's still sinking in. I can say that my H lying to me about meeting up with OW is a boundary violation even if "nothing happened". My H convincing me to stop doing something that was making me happy is a boundary violation.
> ...


True. They were probably there but I didn't know it and I am still figuring out what they are.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

My stbx is moving out this week. I still can't believe this nightmare is happening. We have to tell our child this week. I don't know how I am supposed to pretend that everything is ok for him. I know my son can tell something is wrong now. Breaks my heart. 

I am hoping that some real distance and NC with H will help. Feeling pretty down on myself because I tried to talk to H. He is busy rewriting history. He said he wasn't sure I am 
capable of having a loving relationship. It doesn't matter how many times he repeats this story about how I feel, it still isn't true. 

So sad that someone whose opinion I used to respect can say such nonsense about me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He's not the old man you knew, not at this point. When the 'lust' chemicals fade away and he's stuck looking at a woman he threw away his whole life for, he's going to start remembering that his life before wasn't all that bad. You weren't that bad. Doesn't mean he'll come back, but he might somehow at least take back his words. And yes, NC will help with that because he'll have to depend on HER for all his needs and most APs have no intention of meeting all their needs, so he'll start to see cracks in the relationship. 

Again, this is NOT me saying he'll come home. It's me saying that yes, it might help him wake up and that, in the meantime, you not having to see him every day will help YOU move on, will cause YOU less pain on a day to day basis - and that's good for the whole family.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It takes time -- sometimes a lot of time -- to get to the point of indifference. Yes, it's difficult. But you'll get there. It will help you detach if you stop trying to talk to him about this. He isn't interested. He's glad you brought up divorce so he didn't have to. Now he can blame you. He's rewriting history because that's how cheaters justify what they're doing.

Keep in mind he didn't really want to R years ago but did because you wanted to. Now he sees freedom ahead and he's not looking back. This is what he's wanted from the first time he cheated. Let him go. Your life will be much better without wondering if he's cheating on you. I know that from experience.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

He probably only stopped seeing her for a short time or off and off through out the last 5 years.

He is spending time with her, behind your back. Helping her pick out a pet, give me a break. Don't believe a word he says. 

People who are caught up in an affair will ONLY fess up to what you already know, when confronted. They aren't going to say oh by the way we slept together. Also you have to have solid proof of that to get them to admit it and even then some won't. 


He was late coming home, by 3 hours! I am pretty positive they slept together. She thought your marriage was already over - because of what your husband told her about your marriage. He more then likely told her your marriage was over.

People in an affair rewrite the entire history of the relationship, to justify to the AP (and themselves)why they would cheat in the first place and so they feel very little guilt, because in their mind, an affair is justifyable.

At this point I'd move out and file for D. He didnt learn the first time


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> He's not the old man you knew, not at this point. When the 'lust' chemicals fade away and he's stuck looking at a woman he threw away his whole life for, he's going to start remembering that his life before wasn't all that bad. You weren't that bad. Doesn't mean he'll come back, but he might somehow at least take back his words. And yes, NC will help with that because he'll have to depend on HER for all his needs and most APs have no intention of meeting all their needs, so he'll start to see cracks in the relationship.
> 
> Again, this is NOT me saying he'll come home. It's me saying that yes, it might help him wake up and that, in the meantime, you not having to see him every day will help YOU move on, will cause YOU less pain on a day to day basis - and that's good for the whole family.


I am very certain that once he is gone I won't take him back. This week is exposure week. He is moving out and I am going to let people know. The question is can I keep my mouth shut about OW. Isn't it more mature to keep details to myself? Pretty sure anger is driving me to share.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Openminded said:


> It takes time -- sometimes a lot of time -- to get to the point of indifference. Yes, it's difficult. But you'll get there. It will help you detach if you stop trying to talk to him about this. He isn't interested. He's glad you brought up divorce so he didn't have to. Now he can blame you. He's rewriting history because that's how cheaters justify what they're doing.
> 
> Keep in mind he didn't really want to R years ago but did because you wanted to. Now he sees freedom ahead and he's not looking back. This is what he's wanted from the first time he cheated. Let him go. Your life will be much better without wondering if he's cheating on you. I know that from experience.



I have been reading from the chump lady lately. If I stop making excuses for him and take the rose colored glasses off then I see he has been an ***hole most of our marriage. I remember the first year being bad. I found ways to tolerate it and I tend to be a happy/optimistic person. I would have continued to tolerate his immature behavior and I would have been happy dragging him through life. I don't have to drag or convince him anymore and am hopeful there is light at the end of the tunnel. However this week is going to suck . 

Thanks guys for the encouragement. I really need it.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

You can be honest that there was another woman. And perhaps the level the affair was at etc. Thats not being immature or petty. You really don't want to give THEM the chance to control the narrative. They will. But you don't need to go any further than you feel they need to understand the circumstances of the end of your marriage. 

You are going to be dealing with a lot of questions in the next coming days. Its going to make you feel better if you are honest. If you dont want to share more than necessary thats fine.  

You are moving out of infidelity, congrats. This is a big step. Let the jerk go, he does not deserve you.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I am very certain that once he is gone I won't take him back. This week is exposure week. He is moving out and I am going to let people know. The question is can I keep my mouth shut about OW. Isn't it more mature to keep details to myself? Pretty sure anger is driving me to share.


 Don't take him back. Ex's are ex's for a reason. You deserve better. You are worth more even if you dont believe it right now, believe it. Pick your self up, dust off and move forward. In a year you will be glad you did. You have to have respect for yourself. He hasn't learned from the last time. He will continue to cheat. 

No, you expose both of them. Expose them to his family, to friends, to you family. Do it before he does!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> I have been reading from the chump lady lately. If I stop making excuses for him and take the rose colored glasses off then I see he has been an ***hole most of our marriage. I remember the first year being bad. I found ways to tolerate it and I tend to be a happy/optimistic person. I would have continued to tolerate his immature behavior and I would have been happy dragging him through life. I don't have to drag or convince him anymore and am hopeful there is light at the end of the tunnel. However this week is going to suck .
> 
> Thanks guys for the encouragement. I really need it.


When the love goggles are on, we all overlook many things that we wouldn't otherwise. It's only once they're off that we see the truth and wonder why we didn't see it before. It's a very painful time for sure. 

Yes, it will be a very tough week. Your son will not take the news well and that's to be expected. And reality will really hit him -- and you -- when his dad moves out. However, in time both you and your son will adjust and move on. Time is the key and it can't be rushed. It takes as long as it takes.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

threelittlestars said:


> You can be honest that there was another woman. And perhaps the level the affair was at etc. Thats not being immature or petty. You really don't want to give THEM the chance to control the narrative. They will. But you don't need to go any further than you feel they need to understand the circumstances of the end of your marriage.
> 
> You are going to be dealing with a lot of questions in the next coming days. Its going to make you feel better if you are honest. If you dont want to share more than necessary thats fine.
> 
> You are moving out of infidelity, congrats. This is a big step. Let the jerk go, he does not deserve you.


I feel like our break up is stalled, being dragged out in slow motion. Maybe the point of exposure is to help end it once and final.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You should have already told people he was cheating on you.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

It's official, Stbx is moving out in the morning two days earlier than planned. It's what I wanted but it still hurts. He makes me feel like it's all in my head, like I over reacted and now it's too late. 

No contact is almost possible.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> It's official, Stbx is moving out in the morning two days earlier than planned. It's what I wanted but it still hurts. He makes me feel like it's all in my head, like I over reacted and now it's too late.
> 
> No contact is almost possible.


Dont pay attention to his rewrite of history. YOU know the truth, so it doesnt matter what spin he puts on it. Let people in on what's happening, gory details not required. Just let people know there was a third person in your marriage and that you are no longer tolerating it. You have no need to defend yourself about whatever HE tells people, and if he comes at you telling you to stop telling people, tell him to **** off and keep doing what you need to do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> It's official, Stbx is moving out in the morning two days earlier than planned. It's what I wanted but it still hurts. He makes me feel like it's all in my head, like I over reacted and now it's too late.
> 
> No contact is almost possible.


Well of course he is TRYING to make you feel like it's all in your head, that you're overreacting. 

But only YOU can make that happen.

Did you expect him to agree with you?


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

You are almost free of him from the day to day. Of course it will hurt. I hope you are gentile with yourself at that time and get busy to distract yourself from wanting to communicate with him. You need distance. You need it to clear your own head. I suggest you find a project you can busy yourself with for a while. 

You are doing well. Stay the course.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> Thestarsarefalling said:
> 
> 
> > It's official, Stbx is moving out in the morning two days earlier than planned. It's what I wanted but it still hurts. He makes me feel like it's all in my head, like I over reacted and now it's too late.
> ...


I don't know what I expected. Even though it's what I wanted, watching him pack up his clothes hurts. Something keeps me thinking that talking to him will fix it and stop the pain. Talking to him just makes it worse. He turns it all around like he is leaving because I am not loving enough. 

Sundays are always hard days because I don't sleep more than a couple of hours that day. Feeling better after getting some sleep.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He isn't likely to let you talk him into an unwanted R this time. You've given him what he really wanted last time but was too gutless to do on his own then because he didn't want everyone blaming him. Now that he has a second chance at freedom he will say it's all your fault. Which is why you need to put the truth out there. 

Fear of the unknown makes you keep talking -- and trying. Let him go. He never was who you wanted him to be. Be glad you found that out now.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

He has been bad news for you for so long! Now you will be free to find your self-respect and inner peace again.

Do the 180 to detach:

The Healing Heart: The 180

Don't shrug off the advice for the 180. It helps *enormously*.

Keep reading the Chump Lady. You have loved this man to your detriment for too long. He hasn't honored his vows to you for a very long time. You've been sexless for how long? This alone indicates a dysfunction that can't be laid at your door.

He manipulates you and is rewriting your history. Let him go and find his bliss. Maybe after losing the dead weight that he has become, you will find the new, better you.

I wish this for you. 180, 180, 180.

He has been cheating on you one way or another for a long time. That's why your relationship has been sexless. Mark my words and do the work of detaching. For your own good. Who says you don't deserve to be loved and honored and respected? Only him. He's the only one saying it. Don't give him any more of your life.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

alte Dame said:


> He has been bad news for you for so long! Now you will be free to find your self-respect and inner peace again.
> 
> Do the 180 to detach:
> 
> ...


He has probably cheated one way or another. 

I am trying to enjoy the fact that I don't have to cover for him anymore and I can normalize my home as much as I want. There are definitely benefits. 

I have lots to be grateful for. Maybe my budget will be tight but at least I have enough to live. My career has potenial and I have been selecting a few friends and family to meet up with when I need it. Just can't wait for this week to be over.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Thats what you do. You know he cheated, if not in body he was cheating in mind AND HEART. Hugs, and strength to you. YOu are SO MUCH BETTER OFF. i hope he comes CRAWLING BACK. But i also hope more that by that time you slam the door on him. What a tool.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Day 1 separated has been fine. No tears, no drama. Feels good and I had my first appt with a councilor. It's mostly just talk therapy but it's something and covered by my insurance. 

Had dinner with my brother who is also in the middle of divorcing.  Our situation is oddly similar. 

Stbx is still being nice and I am practicing talking about his apartment in a nice way to our child. Since he can keep his mouth shut I am expecting all the neighbors to hear about Daddy's new apartment.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Day 1 separated has been fine. No tears, no drama. Feels good and I had my first appt with a councilor. It's mostly just talk therapy but it's something and covered by my insurance.
> 
> Had dinner with my brother who is also in the middle of divorcing. Our situation is oddly similar.
> 
> Stbx is still being nice and I am practicing talking about his apartment in a nice way to our child. Since he can keep his mouth shut I am expecting all the neighbors to hear about Daddy's new apartment.



:smthumbup: :smthumbup:


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

NO CONTACT can be finally established. Take yourself out for something nice this week. Buy one new outfit. Retail therapy! And just get into your own personal routine. DO NOT relent and allow your husband to come back and forth in your home for any reason or excuse. he should not be allowed to keep you as friend. Stick to strict and maybe seemingly unreasonable boundaries. The boundaries will protect you from him taking advantage of you, or confusing your emotions. 

Good luck. This first week is going to be very hard. Pamper yourself. Give yourself somethign to distract you.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

threelittlestars said:


> NO CONTACT can be finally established. Take yourself out for something nice this week. Buy one new outfit. Retail therapy! And just get into your own personal routine. DO NOT relent and allow your husband to come back and forth in your home for any reason or excuse. he should not be allowed to keep you as friend. Stick to strict and maybe seemingly unreasonable boundaries. The boundaries will protect you from him taking advantage of you, or confusing your emotions.
> 
> Good luck. This first week is going to be very hard. Pamper yourself. Give yourself somethign to distract you.


. 

To be honest it hasn't been bad. I have not gone full no contact either. Last night I was pulling out pans and bowls he could take. There was a look of terror when I told him about the differ kinds of food he could cook in it. Gave him all the mismatched utensils and stuff I don't really want anyway. Kind of made me giggle because I am giving him stuff he had wanted me to throw away. Poor sausage is realizing all the little things he has to get to have a functional house. Pretty sure he was crying when I called him about our schedules for kid. I enjoyed imagining my stbx picking out a shower curtain for the first time at the age of 39. I have to stop taking care of him. 

Our son doesn't like to be at his dads apartment yet because he doesn't have anything to do.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He may find life on the outside not nearly as easy as he thought it would be. All that freedom he's after comes with a price. 

Don't be surprised if, when things with the OW don't work out, he decides he's ready to return.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

When I went to my dad's apartment, it was full of his Playboy magazine collection and not much else. I read a lot of Playboys those years.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

turnera said:


> When I went to my dad's apartment, it was full of his Playboy magazine collection and not much else. I read a lot of Playboys those years.


God, the memories! My father had a 'collection' as well. These were truly cherished items. I remember the confused look on my dad's wife's face when she found them all stacked neatly and in perfect order in the back of the closet. She was packing him up for the nursing home...

Sorry for the t/j, OP. I admit that I am enjoying the possibility that your stbx will have to face the horror of fending for himself. (My father was much slyer - he kept marrying after my mother died & by the time he was ready to go into the nursing home he was far too senile to notice anything.)


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

alte Dame said:


> God, the memories! My father had a 'collection' as well. These were truly cherished items. I remember the confused look on my dad's wife's face when she found them all stacked neatly and in perfect order in the back of the closet. She was packing him up for the nursing home...
> 
> Sorry for the t/j, OP. I admit that I am enjoying the possibility that your stbx will have to face the horror of fending for himself. (My father was much slyer - he kept marrying after my mother died & by the time he was ready to go into the nursing home he was far too senile to notice anything.)


Don't think we have to worry about Playboys in the closet anymore with the internet. I am really doubtful Stbx can make it more than a year without finding another doormat/maid/companion. Remarrying asap might help is image with his friends and family in his head. He hasn't told his friends and family because he wants to wait until it's too late for them to try and change his mind. I told him I would stay away from his side and let him deal with them. Whatever. He is busy spinning the story so he comes out looking like a good guy. Whatever. 

My therapist suggested I should think about what my needs are for my marriage. Was a little annoyed to go back to saving my marriage. Maybe understanding what my needs are in this relationship can help me in future relationship or if stbx does try and come back I can use it to evaluate him. Clearly I can't stand another woman to be involved with my husband even if it's "innocent" and they are "friends". I can't stand lying and secrecy. Deal breakers. I also need someone to take responsibility for their own mistakes. No blameshifting. Reciprocity seems important although I have never had that and not sure what that looks like.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Don't think we have to worry about Playboys in the closet anymore with the internet. I am really doubtful Stbx can make it more than a year without finding another doormat/maid/companion. Remarrying asap might help is image with his friends and family in his head. He hasn't told his friends and family because he wants to wait until it's too late for them to try and change his mind. I told him I would stay away from his side and let him deal with them. Whatever. He is busy spinning the story so he comes out looking like a good guy. Whatever.
> 
> My therapist suggested I should think about what my needs are for my marriage.  Was a little annoyed to go back to saving my marriage. Maybe understanding what my needs are in this relationship can help me in future relationship or if stbx does try and come back I can use it to evaluate him. Clearly I can't stand another woman to be involved with my husband even if it's "innocent" and they are "friends". I can't stand lying and secrecy. Deal breakers. I also need someone to take responsibility for their own mistakes. No blameshifting. Reciprocity seems important although I have never had that and not sure what that looks like.


Ugh, please dont ever let him come back. 

But I agree that its important for YOU to figure out what your needs are. I know for me, I will never EVER tolerate an ex in the picture. (coparenting the exceoption, of course) My ass got burned TWICE because of unresolved ex issues... never again. There are other things too of course, but this is one of the biggest for me.

Oh... and be sure to let your therapist know what it is you want. Dont allow her (him??) to go back to issues you are done with, such as saving your marriage. Let them know what YOU feel that you need. If they cannot respect that, then you need a new therapist.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I agree, 3X. 

It's time for you to start looking ahead -- not looking back to save a marriage your husband hasn't wanted for a long time. If that's what your therapist recommends then you need to find one to help you move on.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think your IC might be asking you to come up with a set of rules, really. What you MUST have, and what you REFUSE to have. I often tell people to come up with such a list, print it out, and keep it handy so you can refer to it now and them and compare what you're in the middle of against it. Can really open your eyes; keeps you from going down the wrong path.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> I think your IC might be asking you to come up with a set of rules, really. What you MUST have, and what you REFUSE to have. I often tell people to come up with such a list, print it out, and keep it handy so you can refer to it now and them and compare what you're in the middle of against it. Can really open your eyes; keeps you from going down the wrong path.



I went to my next appointment with the councilor and it focus on me getting used to my new normal before I make any more big decisions. Particularly about moving the divorce forward because I might be in a better position later. It's true that I feel a rush to get it over with, move on, etc. I did look at a couple online dating sites just to reminding me there are other fish in the sea. There is no way I am ready for any of that. The roller coaster of emotions continue but I generally feel better separated from my husband. 

I also am slowing telling people about our separation. It's easier to say we separated than we are divorcing. When I told my mother she wanted to know why we couldn't fix it and I end up comforting and reassuring her. 

So far my Stbx has been nice but distancing himself more and more. He was supposed to stay st the house with our son when I worked but has gone to his place instead. Our child seems to be coping well. We have only said daddy has an apartment and that is where he stays. Might progress to talking about divorce in a few months. It's hard to know what to say.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Question: Do I keep checking phone records? I know I shouldn't but I have. I keep thinking his guard will drop and I will start seeing suspicious calls or texts and that will validatate my decision. So far he isn't calling or texting anyone at all which is almost as suspicious as having lots of texts. Someone tell me to stop it.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Question: Do I keep checking phone records? I know I shouldn't but I have. I keep thinking his guard will drop and I will start seeing suspicious calls or texts and that will validatate my decision. So far he isn't calling or texting anyone at all which is almost as suspicious as having lots of texts. Someone tell me to stop it.


No, dont bother any more. You dont need more validation, your husband met up with this other woman IN PERSON behind your back. You dont need anything else. It doesnt matter any more. What matters is moving forward, and you cant do that if you keep looking behind you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No. It only keeps you stuck in the crapola. You need to be mentally moving on, which is what your IC is trying to help you do. What would she say if she knew you were doing that?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Definitely stop. No point now.


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## threelittlestars (Feb 18, 2016)

Stop looking, stop checking, stop caring. That needs to be a motto for you. This man. this manchild...needs to be GONE. 

It takes time, does not happen over night. Keep up the hard work. You will get to where you want to go.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Thanks for the support guys! It has been going sort of well. My stbx has been around even less than I had imagined. He comes and leaves as soon as possible. He is trying to keep me from finding his exact address for reasons that don't make sense. This is strange, right? I know it's probably a control issue and I just keep my thoughts and frustrations to myself. Talking to him rarely helps. 

He has been getting irritated that I am not responding quickly enough to message that are either trivial or at questionable times (like when I am asleep he knows my schedule). This is strange, right? 

He has always been clear that being with our child was the most important thing in his life but when I offered to let him take more time over the holidays he said no. He is off for work and doesn't have family to spend time with. I am trying to not read into things but that is strange right? Why wouldn't he want more time with our kid after telling me over and over our kid is his #1? Dreading another shoe to drop. 

I try to not think about him and to focus on me and what I want to do with my future. Truth is I have no idea what that means. I can't picture a future at all. It's all blank and unknown. Some people might find that exciting but I don't. I love to plan and make goals but I can't think beyond today or next week. 

It's been about 3 weeks since H moved out. Not sure I miss him much. He really didn't contribute much in anyway. I miss having someone to share funny stuff with. I miss at least the illusion we were a family. I am glad he isn't around to nag me. I have started to tell people. Everyone has been kind and supportive but it is embarrassing. What is wrong with me that my husband could just casually move out and decide to divorce like it isn't a big deal? 

I don't think I could have done anything better and I don't have any regrets except maybe leaving him sooner. I realized that he hasn't had to work at our marriage, he hasn't invested or sacrifice for it the way I did. I don't mean to say I was perfect but I tried. He really hasn't. Our marriage/family was valuable to me because I was invested and I sacrificed for the good of marriage. It's very humiliating to realize I have let him take advantage of me for this long.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Don't neglect looking at the positive, either. 

This relationship has taught you to be aware of all the things you DON'T WANT in your next relationship. Remember them and never compromise again. 

Give yourself more credit for removing yourself from an intolerable situation. There are many people in this world who simply CAN'T let go, even for their own sanity. 

If he's moved on so quickly, I hate to say, he just didn't care very much for you. Isn't it better to be AWAY from someone who only ever makes you an option? Bending over backwards and forwards for someone who doesn't reciprocate is draining. Save that energy for someone who actually gives you time, attention, and interest.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

It has only been 3 weeks, in time being without him will be your new normal and you will begin to be in touch with yourself and not constantly grappling with the unknowns surrounding him and the angst of wondering was he cheating, etc.

Focus on yourself and your kid. In time you will meet someone new and look back and think, why didn't I get out sooner.

You should try not to wonder about you stbx and what he is up to. Insist from now on that he cannot text or watsapp you, communication should be by email only, in that way you can take your time in replying. Do not let him control you.

He may be mysterious now just to get you wondering, act nonchalantly. If he doesn't spend time with his son, his loss, not your problem.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Satya said:


> Don't neglect looking at the positive, either.
> 
> This relationship has taught you to be aware of all the things you DON'T WANT in your next relationship. Remember them and never compromise again.
> 
> ...



I have to say that I feel better with him gone and have more energy. My dogs have been neglected and now I take them for walks everyday. 

As much as I would like another relationship, I don't want to put much thought into it. Pretty sure it's a terrible idea for me right now.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

It's not a terrible idea in general, but perhaps at the moment.
Yes, you need to take the time to heal... whatever that means for you.

Walking the dogs is one of my most favorite activities. It's me time and the dogs are thrilled and behave much better for the rest of the day. "The Walk" is the time for the dog to bond with it's human. I don't often walk all 3 at once (if they see bunnies I might lose an arm) but in the instances I do, they LOVE it... pack walk!

Just keep doing the small things that keep you happy.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

aine said:


> It has only been 3 weeks, in time being without him will be your new normal and you will begin to be in touch with yourself and not constantly grappling with the unknowns surrounding him and the angst of wondering was he cheating, etc.
> 
> Focus on yourself and your kid. In time you will meet someone new and look back and think, why didn't I get out sooner.
> 
> ...



I try not to think about him and most of the time it's not a problem, just weak moments. It seems like those moments are when I am missing my kid. 


Thanks for the understanding!


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

You sound like you are doing very well. I bet that we will hear an increasingly strong voice from you as time passes. You need to heal from the toxic relationship that you were in for so long & as that happens, you will marvel both at your own (much better) life and the dysfunctional life your stbx will lead. You will get healthier and he will be more enmired. You will wonder why you stayed as long as you did, but the good news is that that time is over. Kudos to you for your strength!


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Satya said:


> It's not a terrible idea in general, but perhaps at the moment.
> Yes, you need to take the time to heal... whatever that means for you.
> 
> Walking the dogs is one of my most favorite activities. It's me time and the dogs are thrilled and behave much better for the rest of the day. "The Walk" is the time for the dog to bond with it's human. I don't often walk all 3 at once (if they see bunnies I might lose an arm) but in the instances I do, they LOVE it... pack walk!
> ...


About 10 years ago I was taking 2 of my dogs out for a walk, came around corner of house, they saw the bunny I didn't and they yanked the leashes so hard they shredded my rotator cuff :frown2: 

Don't worry about not having a picture of the future right now, your only a few weeks into this. Narrow the focus right now to short term and build on each day.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thestarsarefalling said:


> Thanks for the support guys! It has been going sort of well. My stbx has been around even less than I had imagined. He comes and leaves as soon as possible. He is trying to keep me from finding his exact address for reasons that don't make sense. This is strange, right? I know it's probably a control issue and I just keep my thoughts and frustrations to myself. Talking to him rarely helps.
> 
> He has been getting irritated that I am not responding quickly enough to message that are either trivial or at questionable times (like when I am asleep he knows my schedule). This is strange, right?
> 
> He has always been clear that being with our child was the most important thing in his life but when I offered to let him take more time over the holidays he said no. He is off for work and doesn't have family to spend time with. I am trying to not read into things but that is strange right? Why wouldn't he want more time with our kid after telling me over and over our kid is his #1?


All of these things are extremely common for wayward husbands. Just ignore it all. We're not surprised one bit. In fact, don't be surprised when he starts hardly ever seeing his child. Another very common occurrence.



> I can't picture a future at all. It's all blank and unknown. Some people might find that exciting but I don't. I love to plan and make goals but I can't think beyond today or next week.


Imagine that you were 18 again and just starting out. Not knowing any guy, your whole future ahead of you. Where would you go? What would you be? What hobbies would you choose to do? Where would you want your kids to live? Create a wish list for how you want your life to turn out now. And figure out the steps you'd need to take now to get to THAT life.



> I have started to tell people. Everyone has been kind and supportive but it is embarrassing. What is wrong with me that my husband could just casually move out and decide to divorce like it isn't a big deal?


Look. You are in good company. Half of the marriages in this country end up in divorce now. Nobody sees it as any sort of deficit anymore, or as anything wrong with you. In fact, most times people see it as something wrong with the person leaving, if there was nothing wrong with the marriage. And people know you. People know you dedicated yourself to your marriage and family. So if they think anything, they think you're lucky to lose an a$$hole for a husband.



> It's very humiliating to realize I have let him take advantage of me for this long.


Look. If we knew at 21 what we know at 40, or even 30, we'd all be millionaires and the smartest people on earth. We don't come with a manual. And we don't really know our sh*t until we're in our 30s and 40s. And here's my secret thought: Many of us should be leaving our first marriage because it wasn't chosen for the right reasons and wasn't with the right person.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He doesn't want you knowing his address because (a) he doesn't want you showing up which leads to (b) he doesn't want you seeing who visits (or lives) there. That's why he doesn't want more time with his son (who definitely is not his priority) -- interferes with his social life. 

Yes, you got played. Big time. But that's happened to many of us. What do you do? You start planning your new, better life. Because you'll have one.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

honcho said:


> About 10 years ago I was taking 2 of my dogs out for a walk, came around corner of house, they saw the bunny I didn't and they yanked the leashes so hard they shredded my rotator cuff :frown2:
> 
> Don't worry about not having a picture of the future right now, your only a few weeks into this. Narrow the focus right now to short term and build on each day.


Yeowch, @honcho! Sorry to hear that. I am so lucky I have not had the same, yet.

/threadjack on

Our male once darted after a seagull when I took him to the beach for the first time. He is so strong and fast, I heard my spine go crrrrrrrrack as I was yanked! Felt it, too. I was scared at first that I'd injured my back but since then I've called it my first and only amateur chiropractor visit.  Felt good, but it could have gone very wrong. 

/threadjack off


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

honcho said:


> About 10 years ago I was taking 2 of my dogs out for a walk, came around corner of house, they saw the bunny I didn't and they yanked the leashes so hard they shredded my rotator cuff :frown2:
> 
> Don't worry about not having a picture of the future right now, your only a few weeks into this. Narrow the focus right now to short term and build on each day.


I have two pugs so I am probably safe from injury. :wink2:

Over the years we have had 5 dogs including 2 pit bulls and a huge lab. I enjoy how easy my pugs are although I miss my other pups. My H was very into dogs when we married 15 years ago but now I am more involved and he doesn't want them anymore.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

turnera said:


> Imagine that you were 18 again and just starting out. Not knowing any guy, your whole future ahead of you. Where would you go? What would you be? What hobbies would you choose to do? Where would you want your kids to live? Create a wish list for how you want your life to turn out now. And figure out the steps you'd need to take now to get to THAT life.


Funny you bring this time period up. I remember becoming depressed and confused at 18 with no idea where I wanted my future to go. My first semester of college I met my Stbx who "saved" me from that dark period. Lesson learned. I can save myself. 

It feel similar now having no direction but I wouldn't say it's as bad. I can only think about today or next week. Hoping I will be able to enjoy reading or watching movies soon because I haven't been able to enjoy them for a couple of months now. The other day I went to the pool and got some sun which I LOVED. Need to do that more. Making a point to visit with friends and family seems to really help my depression too. 

Over all I do feel so much better than I did a month ago. H moving out helped because having him around was a constant reminder of his betrayal. I appreciate the support from everyone on TAM since no one in my normal life could really understand. Thanks!


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Openminded said:


> He doesn't want you knowing his address because (a) he doesn't want you showing up which leads to (b) he doesn't want you seeing who visits (or lives) there. That's why he doesn't want more time with his son (who definitely is not his priority) -- interferes with his social life.
> 
> Yes, you got played. Big time. But that's happened to many of us. What do you do? You start planning your new, better life. Because you'll have one.


I am trying really hard to not think about him and what nonsense he is doing. In my weak moments I check the phone records and he isn't using his phone at all except to text me occasionally. It just makes me suspicious he is using another phone or app that hides messages from the phone bill. He is all alone for days and talking to no one? Probably need to separate our phone plans so I won't have access anymore but I am not really for that. He is paying for it right now so I will just let him for a while. 

I may have told him to keep his potential relationships away from me if he doesn't want me to expose them. Of course he denied denied denied there was anything to hide. 

Just need to keep telling myself that it doesn't matter anyway and he is no prize. She can have him.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Update. There is nothing to update. I saw a new therapist and she told me to try and notice the times when I felt good about my life. 3 days with no moments like that. Little depressing and feeling directionless. Divorce is on hold until I feel like dealing with it. I can tell people I am separated without too much problem but the word divorce is hard to say. Today was a pretty hard day and I realized I had no desire to talk to H about it. 

It is interesting how no contact really does help and time has helped too. Anger is still a good friend but mostly I feel numb to it. Having people around helps. It seems like my stbx can't do anything right. I am angry when he is nice and angry when he isn't. I am annoyed by everything he says no matter what. I am angry for all the unanswered questions. It's sad he sacrificed our family for OW. It's also sad for him to sacrifice our family and not be with OW. I have no idea what he is doing right now and I don't ask. 

In my weak moments I have poked at him to start a fight but he doesn't take the bait. I just want to yell at him sometimes but I don't. I don't ask him for anything. Since we have a kid I have to see him twice a week but I keep it brief. He even rings the door bell! (So weird!) Pretty sure he tells himself how crazy I am and to tip toe around me those few times. He made up an imaginary argument last weekend when I asked if he wanted to take the kid for the 3 day weekend. He wanted me to take the kid because he "doesn't want to fight." I wasn't fighting. Pretty sure he wanted a kid less holiday and wanted it to seem like my idea.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Thanks for updating! You are sounding much stronger and more grounded. Dont worry about being aggravated with him all the time, he certainly has it coming, and over time, that will dissipate into something you barely notice any more.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I found it easier to tell people I was divorced than separated (which I was for a few months when his gf convinced him to move in with her). Separation sounded too much in limbo to me -- neither here nor there -- and I wanted to be divorced so I could restart my life. 

Your husband didn't want to come back after the previous separation and did so only under pressure. You haven't really been on his mind (in a good way) since long before he left the first time. Divorce him for sure but do it sooner rather than later. You'll feel much better when you totally get your life back. Right now, you are only partially there. Limbo's a hard place to be.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

Openminded said:


> I found it easier to tell people I was divorced than separated (which I was for a few months when his gf convinced him to move in with her). Separation sounded too much in limbo to me -- neither here nor there -- and I wanted to be divorced so I could restart my life.
> 
> Your husband didn't want to come back after the previous separation and did so only under pressure. You haven't really been on his mind (in a good way) since long before he left the first time. Divorce him for sure but do it sooner rather than later. You'll feel much better when you totally get your life back. Right now, you are only partially there. Limbo's a hard place to be.



I do worry I am making excuses. It's pretty difficult to imagine getting back with H at all even if he hoovered back. It's difficult to imagine him even trying to come back. Financially I am better off married since I am on his health insurance and worry about losing income to taxes because I am single. Isnt that a way to kick you when you are down. Become a single mom so pay more in taxes. Dumb! Marriage tax benefit is dumb too! I am starting a new job to supplement my income and rearrange child custody so the ex can never claim I should pay him child support. Worried I will pay more in car insurance, home insurance. I will loose my therapist too. I am still paying his life insurance because I want to make sure he keeps it. Divorce is just a big paperwork nightmare that makes me feel humiliated and depressed. Saving up some money to pay a lawyer might be worth it just to have someone else deal with it. My ex is supposed to pay down our debt and I want to make sure he is doing that while we are married or I will go after more of his retirement. I am waiting to see if he does it. I don't really plan on filing anytime soon because there doesn't seem to be a benefit to divorce. I don't plan on dating anytime soon. 

Is it make excuses to wait until I feel emotionally and financially secure? Better question is if you can ever be emotionally and financially ready. 

I have been doing pretty well but this week has sucked.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

aine said:


> This man is NOT worthy of another try, he has treated the OP as disposable, time for her to grow an pair and dump his ass instead of playing the 'pick me' dance. Hopefully when she does, she will realize she was far too good for him all along and will not want him back under any circumstances.


I feel like you were correct. I don't want him back and pretty sure I was too good for him. Don't know what he is doing with OW but don't care. Thanks for everyone's advice. It was very eye opening and correct.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

alte Dame said:


> Some people can face the reality of a dead relationship and just put everyone out of their misery. There are epic threads here and on other sites where the BS simply said 'no' and walked away into a new life. It was painful, but they come back to tell us that they did the right thing.
> 
> And then there are most of us, who can't cut the cord until our hearts are aligned with our heads. We think we can't do the hard thing, which is find the courage to end it. We are simply too fearful.
> 
> ...


I have been re reading my thread. This applies even now and means a lot to me. I have ended my relationship and gone NC/ grey rock. What a relief! Of course there are set backs but it's nice to have the weight gone from my shoulders. 

Now I have to get myself to file. Have lots of reasons to wait. Trying to get "the famous ducks in a row." Maybe that will never happen and I should just move forward anyway.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

threelittlestars said:


> ^This, so much this.
> 
> I get the same impression. You dont want to let go. These ducks, are excuses (I THINK) to stay around him. Its fair to be afraid. Call it what it is. Its easier to face a fear you are no longer denying.
> 
> ...


After re reading my thread, I can see myself making silly excuses. It kind of irritates me now. 5 months from dd2, 3 months separated and he irritates me. I can't stand to be around him. Kicking him out has been the best thing I did. Don't get me wrong, he is being nice but I find the niceness irritating. It doesn't make up for the last 6 years. Talk is cheap. 

Thanks for your words because they helped me see better and I still need a reminder now.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

alte Dame said:


> You sound like you are doing very well. I bet that we will hear an increasingly strong voice from you as time passes. You need to heal from the toxic relationship that you were in for so long & as that happens, you will marvel both at your own (much better) life and the dysfunctional life your stbx will lead. You will get healthier and he will be more enmired. You will wonder why you stayed as long as you did, but the good news is that that time is over. Kudos to you for your strength!


I don't know what is worse. Stbx having a wonderful life with OW or his disfunction making him have a harder life. Neither makes me happy. Both make me sad. I don't know what he is up to. Very little contact. He is currently working around OW all the time offer a summer break. I have too much on my plate to worry about him and his silly drama. I only think of him when I get angry about how unfair my life is with most of the responsibility falling to me. Of course it has always been like that but I had the illusion of a husband to support me. No more illusions here. Trying to find a balance working 2 jobs and being home for my son after school, car pooling on my days to school. It's nuts. Meanwhile my H goes to work like normal. He doesn't have to worry about leaving work early to pick up kid from school or how that will effect his career. He can stay up all night texting OW if he wants. I get to stay up all night working. Life isn't fair, is it?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

It'll pass.

You'll think and care about him less, in direct proportion to what you do to better yourself and find enjoyment and happiness elsewhere. 

It's when you're alone with not much to do that you're mind will start to wander back to him. That, too, will lessen in time.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Time will heal and you will be glad of your kid, who will soon grow up and be a source of pride and comfort. You will meet someone who will be that support and you can look back and be glad you kicked him out. What will he have, he will be the same self centred shall person he always was. Time has a way of changing circumstances.


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## m.t.t (Oct 5, 2016)

I just wanted to say thankyou for posting your story here. I'm in the same position you find yourself in at the moment, just finally got him to leave, years of similar trust issues that you have gone through and my partner had a similar feel to his investment in me. Im also co dependant in a similar way in which you were with your husband so it was so good to have this reflected back to me in your story.

Just wanted to say all the best with your journey, I feel like Im missing somthing at the moment but its not him that Im missing I cant decide if its the feeling of mental space that Im not used to or the almost addictive nature of my relationship with him, trying to work him out and be better for him so he would want me. The one difference between our stories is that my partner and I had sex daily sometimes more but that was how he related to me and I let him us me in this way. His last comment to me last week after a 4 week seperation was "I will still **** you in back seat of the car when you are 80!" This is so degrading, I'm proud that I just turned around and said i dont think so, firstly you will have a long way to travel to find me and secondly Ive moved on. It felt so good not to fall for that crumb of disrespect.

I would love for you to keep us updated with your jouney, keep strong.


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