# Do cheaters always cheat again?



## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

So do cheaters always cheat again? Do you believe the saying "once a cheater, always a cheater". Why or why not? Personal experience?


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I had multiple affairs before and during my first marriage. I left for an AP and have been faithful to him for 17 years. I have a few friends that were unfaithful during youthful marriages and who are faithful to their current spouses or SO's. I know others that have been married 3,4, or even 5 times and cheated during each of their marriages. I think some people are situational cheaters and others are just incapable of being faithful regardless of their situation.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

I don't believe in the saying once a cheater, always a cheater, or even a leopard can't change their spots. People can change, people can be less then desirable and then be a role model. The exception to this rule is a narcissist. People make bad choices, are fallible, and can become better people. I don't feel that ones life is defined by infidelity, capable yes, but I don't think it's their defining moment in life. How they handle the adversity before them may be a defining moment though.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

A cheater cheats first on themselves and then like a ripple, affects all in the area around them... nothing left untouched. 

Those that do not learn from the chaos it does to self and others, are doomed to repeat it.

I wouldn't have married my present wife and and lived a near 3 decade relationship if I thought she hadn't learned from her past (no, not with me but was fully aware of a previous situation she had placed herself in).

I had no such confidence in my ex before her to ever offer such an opportunity as reconciliation.

Sometimes you simply read the tea leaves and know...


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

adegirl2016 said:


> So do cheaters always cheat again?


My exwife certainly did....

Sloots gonna sloot.


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## Keke24 (Sep 2, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> A cheater cheats first on themselves and then like a ripple, affects all in the area around them... nothing left untouched.
> 
> Those that do not learn from the chaos it does to self and others, are doomed to repeat it.


I think this is an excellent point by Buddhist.

Although I was in an open relationship with my last partner, I cheated by lying about my true feelings towards OM and about sleeping with OM in the beginning. 

After that relationship blew up and spending some time on TAM, only then was I truly able to grasp the magnitude of what I had done. I've had a chance to sincerely apologise to both and admit the many errors of my ways. And try to impress upon them that what I did was terrible and they should not have let it slide so easily. That they did themselves a disservice by not making me suffer the consequences of my actions.

I cannot fathom the possibility of cheating again. I've come such a long way in the way I relate to cheating and relationships in general.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

@MJJEAN and @drifting on

Explained it pretty accurate.

In many cases, yes. Once a cheater always.

I know several people that learned their lesson and changed though.

My wife cheated in both her marriages before meeting me and was the OW twice.

She has been a model for sexual fidelity with me however.

Both her previous husbands cheated on her first and both men she was the OW for were men in positions of power over her.

I am both a powerful, physically mentally, and faithful man.

I believe she was weak when faced with corrupt, powerful men and when faced with weak, cheating men.

I would hope she has changed and grown to the point where she would not make those choices again regardless of me being in her life or not.

With me, she is a very faithful woman.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Depends on the cheater.

Many do. I'll stop short of saying most because no one really knows, and it's not like there are any statistics out there that can be trusted.

Still, I'm of the opinion that most do.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In the cases that I'm fairly sure of, one cheater only did it once, the other multiple times.

I think there is a lot of range in why people cheat and what they feel at the time, so the odds of a repeat vary.


If someone cheats because they are missing something in their marriage, and that lack continues, they will likely do so again.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

No, I do not believe that cheaters are destined to cheat again. Many do, but many learn a lesson and fix what was broken in themselves to allow that to happen. Unfortunately, they ALL say they will never do it again and it can be nearly impossible to figure out which ones are sincere and which ones are not. 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

adegirl2016 said:


> So do cheaters always cheat again? Do you believe the saying "once a cheater, always a cheater". Why or why not? Personal experience?


Many do. But being sure that your WS never cheated again; is sort of like having to do an autopsy to confirm Alzheimer's. You won't know for sure, until you or your cheating spouse are on your respective death beds. 

And even then, there may be some small amount of doubt.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

In my ex's case, yes. I believe he's incapable of being faithful. He cheated during dating and marriage. I also found out he cheated during our engagement and on many of his girlfriends before me. Also, during the time (that I know of) of his cheating he was also on websites and/or groups called married, but looking. Why I didn't leave 15+ years ago I'll never know. Can't dwell on that anymore. I have to stay positive!


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Which is more likely to happen in the future:

Something that has never happened before or something that has happened before?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Keke24 said:


> I cannot fathom the possibility of cheating again. I've come such a long way in the way I relate to cheating and relationships in general.


This is the happiness you see and the smile reflected back to you from your inner mirror, pleased in the growth you have fought to become when you leave that which hurts you, within you. 

Namaste...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Graywolf2 said:


> Which is more likely to happen in the future:
> 
> Something that has never happened before or something that has happened before?


I get that reasoning but when I was a teen, I disrespected my grandfather once.

I would drink fire before behaving that way towards a loved one again.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

one size does not fit all.

i would categorize cheaters into 2 broad categories.

A) the first is people who are basically healthy, but for maybe certain key weaknesses or faults that may lead them into
circumstances where their guard is down and they make a terrible decision. 
they are not serial cheaters. they are once in a lifetime or at most twice very maybe.

B) the other are seriously flawed individuals usually with personality disorders and abusive or dysfunctional adolescence who have a propensity to lie and cheat.

of course the distinction between these two types sometimes becomes blurry within the broad spectrum. 

the two cheaters in my life belonged to category (B). with red flags a wavin', i ventured forth blinded by love, naivety and denial, but such is life.
and the weird thing is............i have no regrets.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Obviously, repeated cheating depends on the person. Some never cheat again and some continue the rest of their lives. My ex-H promised that never again would I have the slightest reason to doubt him. He lied. R is always a risk for that reason.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

jorgegene said:


> one size does not fit all.
> 
> i would categorize cheaters into 2 broad categories.
> 
> ...



Interesting point. I cheated on my boyfriend in college. We were high school sweet hearts. But, it was because he cheated on me a few times and I didn't want to end the relationship but wanted payback. So immature at the time. But the reason I have never cheated again is because of the immense guilt I felt after. I felt so guilty, I wished to never feel that way again. 

I think I can categorize my husband as option B.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Some, not all.

I'd never do it again. 4 years later I don't look at myself the same. There isn't a day that goes by that what I did doesn't get in my head somehow. The guilt, the shame, the self hating because of it. I can't ever call myself a good person again. 

I'll throw myself in front of a bus before I'd do it again.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Some, not all.
> 
> I'd never do it again. 4 years later I don't look at myself the same. There isn't a day that goes by that what I did doesn't get in my head somehow. The guilt, the shame, the self hating because of it. I can't ever call myself a good person again.
> 
> I'll throw myself in front of a bus before I'd do it again.


Exactly. I think if someone can feel THIS kind of guilt, they'd never do it again.


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## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> Interesting point. I cheated on my boyfriend in college. We were high school sweet hearts. But, it was because he cheated on me a few times and I didn't want to end the relationship but wanted payback. So immature at the time. But the reason I have never cheated again is because of the immense guilt I felt after. I felt so guilty, I wished to never feel that way again.


This raises an interesting point that I've been pondering lately. I think a lot of people in the wider world *think* they understand cheating because it's relatively commonplace during the dating phase (if not in absolute terms then at least because people have comparatively more dating partners than marriage partners so it seems more frequent). As a result, people often think they have some insight into what marital infidelity is because they have seen, or have themselves, been unfaithful during dating. But I think this is a misnomer, and the two are dramatically different.

That's not to say cheating during dating is acceptable, it's absolutely not, but it's also sort of "baked into" the process. Dating is itself a process of meeting many different people and deciding what traits in a partner you like best, in that way infidelity during dating is a perverse variation on a theme (again, NOT acceptable, but also not completely out of left field).

Marital infidelity differs in that you have ostensibly "decided" who your best partner is and made the promises in front of friends, family, the government, etc. That is (for me) what makes the pain an order of magnitude harder to bear -- dating in infidelity is a variation on the core process, infidelity in marriage is a rejection and destruction of that process.

But, in my mind, that also means that a person who cheated during dating (for the record, I never did) shouldn't carry that burden so heavily. It wasn't a great look, but it wasn't the end of the world either, it was just a slightly messier breakup in my opinion.

Anyway, random thoughts on a Tuesday morning...


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> So do cheaters always cheat again? Do you believe the saying "once a cheater, always a cheater". Why or why not? Personal experience?


No I think people who experience shame can change. It takes something very powerful to change them though. 

It's not just cheating, from what I see they are just not really good at being spouses. They are self-centered with poor boundaries, impulse control and the lot. They need a lot of work to change, if they even want to. Then you have to waste all this time with them learning to just be productive spouses, like years and years. While also dealing with all the fallout and living with your trigger. Is it really worth the effort? You don't think you could meet and fall in love with someone else? In your case you kid will still have it's father, that doesn't change.

Also personally I would never trust someone who said they cheated because of poor circumstances. One sure fact of life is circumstances change. Just because you are happily married today doesn't mean you won't be tomorrow. If you are not cheating because you are happy or your circumstances are great that is really not the right reasons.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

I'd wager an educated guess that a person is quite likely to cheat again on the same partner but with a new partner with whom the relationship is more balanced, with the needs of both partners being met, with good open communication, the odds can and probably do decrease dramatically.

My GF of 5 years cheated multiple times on her exhusband as the marriage was entering its death throes, and while I don't condone her cheating I can understand why she had no feelings of loyalty towards him. He was just BAD, in so many ways. 

None of those things exist in our relationship, I have no reason to think she would. Of course we aren't married so I'd like to think even in a worst case scenario, if she wanted out, she wouldn't feel trapped, as so many married people do, so she could just leave if she wasn't happy. I know I would.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

It depends on what phase in life the former cheaters are in, an who their partner is (if any). By cheater, I assume you mean marital infidelity.

I equate this to unwed young moms who have already had a baby. Perhaps before they were nieve to the ways of preventing pregnancy or could be manipulated by smooth talking guys. They also were unaware about what pregnancy, delivery, and caring for a baby was all about.

Married women who cheated for the first time may have had similar circumstances and didn't realize the effects on family, friends, coworkers, OMW/OWH, etc. There may have been some manipulation at play as well.

But if it happens again (assuming the previous A was discovered or confessed to) they know full well the potential fall-out from their actions. I have had many friends in the military who cheated more than once, and they all knew fully well what they were doing.

My W cheated multiple times, partly because I told her to, and partly because she wanted to. After the first time I suspect it got easier for her, and she started picking married guys. So yes cheaters will in all likelihood cheat again, they definitely have the capability if the right circumstance presents itself and they want to.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> My W cheated multiple times, partly because I told her to, and partly because she wanted to.


I just know when I see a new post by @MAJDEATH I will read it and find myself shaking my head, and this one is no exception.

Your wife did NOT cheat on you because you told her to. You got the second half right but you didn't put the 100% emphasis on it that it deserves.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Once someone has cheated, they can never undo it. They will always have cheated. That doesn't mean they will cheat again though. People CAN change, and learn from their mistakes. Just like someone who murders someone will always have murdered that person, but that doesn't mean they will murder again.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

To carry the murder analogy further, you have serial killers, and then you have the abused wife who kills her husband so that he stops. You can't even compare the two.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> It depends on what phase in life the former cheaters are in, an who their partner is (if any). By cheater, I assume you mean marital infidelity.
> 
> I equate this to unwed young moms who have already had a baby. Perhaps before they were nieve to the ways of preventing pregnancy or could be manipulated by smooth talking guys. They also were unaware about what pregnancy, delivery, and caring for a baby was all about.
> 
> ...



I like this too. Perfect example. So in my case, my husband has been caught in an EA years ago. You would think that after that falling out, he would have never wanted that to happen again.
But he did. And it was physical this time.
Even worse. 
This thread is just confirming my thoughts on this. 
Thanks guys


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> No I think people who experience shame can change. It takes something very powerful to change them though.
> 
> *It's not just cheating, from what I see they are just not really good at being spouses. * They are self-centered with poor boundaries, impulse control and the lot. They need a lot of work to change, if they even want to. Then you have to waste all this time with them learning to just be productive spouses, like years and years. While also dealing with all the fallout and living with your trigger. Is it really worth the effort? You don't think you could meet and fall in love with someone else? In your case you kid will still have it's father, that doesn't change.
> 
> Also personally I would never trust someone who said they cheated because of poor circumstances. One sure fact of life is circumstances change. Just because you are happily married today doesn't mean you won't be tomorrow. If you are not cheating because you are happy or your circumstances are great that is really not the right reasons.


I’d say that can be false. I’m an amazing wife short of what I did 4 years ago for 30 seconds. I cook dinner roughly 5 nights a week, almost every time what he would prefer to eat. He’s diabetic, I cater my menu to him and make sure he has things he’s supposed to eat. I do all of the grocery shopping, couponing, carrying in and putting away. I do all of the cleaning, all of the laundry, all of the running of the kids. I pay all of the bills, budget all of the money. I take care of the dogs, buy all of their food, take them to the vet, take them on walks and car rides, give them their baths. I pick up his medication and his insulin. If I’m out driving around running errands and he texts and says he wants something, I’ll stop and get it, even if it’s out of the way. Sometimes, I’ll drive it all the way home and go back out to finish my stuff just so he can have what he needs. If he plops his foot on my lap, he gets a foot rub. He gets back rubs several nights a week. He doesn’t leave the couch on weekends while I work from sun up to sun down on household chores. I work overtime at my primary job and have a second job to help pay the bills. If he mentions he wants something, he gets it. I shower him with affection, non stop. I hug him 2-3 times a day, kiss him more than that and sex is at his fingertips any time he wants it – 5-7 times a week. If we go on a date, we do what HE wants, even for my birthday. We finally got to go on our first vacation last year. We went where he wanted to go. I give him random gifts just because. I tell him please and thank you for everything and I tell him I appreciate the things that he does. I’ve extended more forgiveness to this man than any one person ever should. I’m decent looking, I’m in good shape. I get along with his friends, he’s never told he “can’t” do something like hang out with the guys. He does “guy stuff 3-4 times a week, every week” I could go on, and on and on. Not everyone who cheats is a sh*tty spouse.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> My wife cheated in both her marriages before meeting me and was the OW twice.
> 
> She has been a model for sexual fidelity with me however.
> 
> Both her previous husbands cheated on her first





adegirl2016 said:


> I cheated on my boyfriend in college. We were high school sweet hearts. But, it was because he cheated on me a few times


I personally don't really consider revenge affairs "cheating" or at least not in the same category.

What's good for the goose, is good for the gander in my opinion. The POS's who started it, had it coming.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> sokillme said:
> 
> 
> > No I think people who experience shame can change. It takes something very powerful to change them though.
> ...


Hey there!! 
You might be the type A that a previous poster talked about. One time thing. Remorse afterwards. You don't sound like the type that would do it over.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > My wife cheated in both her marriages before meeting me and was the OW twice.
> ...


Not going to lie. 
My dad said to do whatever the hell I want to from now on (until I file for D in a few months) 
Thinking about taking him up on it. My husband is a serial cheater. 
I don't even think my husband would care, actually.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Why cheat just because your dad has given you a free pass??? You can never undo it, you know. Once you cheat, you will always have cheated. You WILL always be a cheater.

I wouldn't do it. I'm better than that.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

adegirl2016 said:


> My dad said to do whatever the hell I want to from now on (until I file for D in a few months)


I get that you don't owe your soon to be exhusband anything.

I'm not getting why you put so much stock into what your Dad says, as if he's some all knowing guru that has the ultimate say in what is right and wrong and what you can and should do in your life.

I mean, if you're 10 years old, that's one thing. But I'm thinking you're a bit older than that, and you're an adult capable of making your own decisions.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Just file for legal separation and you can bang whoever you want. Tell him the marriage is over, you are done, move out and be free.

Just don't cheat.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

adegirl2016 said:


> So do cheaters always cheat again? Do you believe the saying "once a cheater, always a cheater". Why or why not? Personal experience?


*Not necessarily, but it could certainly reoccur! 

Let's just say that a confirmed cheater already knows the ropes enough that a second episode could definitely chance itself again!*


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## JayOwen (Oct 26, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Just file for legal separation and you can bang whoever you want. Tell him the marriage is over, you are done, move out and be free.
> 
> Just don't cheat.


exactly, if it's not worth divorcing then it's not worth cheating and if it IS worth divorcing ... then just do that first.

Maintain the high road AND get what you want, win-win.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

adegirl2016 said:


> I don't even think my husband would care, actually.


He stopped caring about you a LONG time ago... You don't hurt people you love. 

IF he did get upset, it would be because of his ego being bruised from easily replacing him.

Not cause you "broke his heart". Cheaters are the ultimate narcissists. They think the world revolves around them.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

JayOwen said:


> This raises an interesting point that I've been pondering lately. I think a lot of people in the wider world *think* they understand cheating because it's relatively commonplace during the dating phase (if not in absolute terms then at least because people have comparatively more dating partners than marriage partners so it seems more frequent). As a result, people often think they have some insight into what marital infidelity is because they have seen, or have themselves, been unfaithful during dating. But I think this is a misnomer, and the two are dramatically different.
> 
> That's not to say cheating during dating is acceptable, it's absolutely not, but it's also sort of "baked into" the process. Dating is itself a process of meeting many different people and deciding what traits in a partner you like best, in that way infidelity during dating is a perverse variation on a theme (again, NOT acceptable, but also not completely out of left field).
> 
> ...


I can't vouch for cheating (never did it), but being cheated on during dating vs being married is absolutely on different levels. It doesn't even compare. I've dealt with both and the pain and heartache is a million times worse when married. Unless you've experienced both, you have no idea.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

browser said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > My dad said to do whatever the hell I want to from now on (until I file for D in a few months)
> ...


My dad raised me and my 3 brothers on his own. I have mad respect for him and his opinions. 
I am not saying that is what I am going to do. He was basically telling me to mentally detach from him until I am in a better place financially. I said this bc a previous poster mentioned revenge affairs, not bc it was my plan.


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## adegirl2016 (Dec 14, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> adegirl2016 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't even think my husband would care, actually.
> ...


Yeah... he has some narc characteristics for sure. 
I agree about him not caring about me.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> I personally don't really consider revenge affairs "cheating" or at least not in the same category.
> 
> What's good for the goose, is good for the gander in my opinion. The POS's who started it, had it coming.


I have a hard time arguing with that line of reasoning.

I don't think RA's are a healthy response but I don't think they are in the same category either.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

ConanHub said:


> I have a hard time arguing with that line of reasoning.
> 
> I don't think RA's are a healthy response but I don't think they are in the same category either.


No - they're in the category of "So, if your best friend jumped off a bridge................"


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

I did'nt read all the rteponses OP, but the person who predicts the answer to your question accurately will be an instant billionaire because they will have solved the "infidelity" riddle.

I think if you do some reading you will find that the PERCENTAGES of a cheater cheating again are greater, especially if they have basically gotten away with it with no real consequences. If a bank robber robs a bank and gets away with $100,000, you think he or she might be more likely to try it again???

Cheaters, especially ones who don't get caught, are probably much more likely to have some fun again. As a matter of fact, I have read that some think the MAJORITY of infidelity is never caught. That is probably true for those that do a ONS, but just like in Vegas, when you will some money, they are counting on your not leaving the casino because the odds favor the house. Most cheaters go back for "seconds" and then you have an affair and then most do get caught.

So the answer is no cheaters don't always cheat again but your odds are not so great that it is not more likely to happen again.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Once someone has cheated, they can never undo it. They will always have cheated. That doesn't mean they will cheat again though. People CAN change, and learn from their mistakes. Just like someone who murders someone will always have murdered that person, but that doesn't mean they will murder again.


This is how I see it. The only thing I would add is I see them like alcoholics so there is an inherent risk.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> No - they're in the category of "So, if your best friend jumped off a bridge................"


The BEST course of action is to straight up dump the cheat. Always. As stated, RA's aren't healthy.

If you can't bring yourself to leave, then the BS is entitled to whatever healing process they see fit.

That includes RA's if that's what it takes. If we're talking metaphors, I prefer, "You reap what you sow..."


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

adegirl2016 said:


> So do cheaters always cheat again? Do you believe the saying "once a cheater, always a cheater". Why or why not? Personal experience?


I think it varies from cheater to cheater and the dynamic of the current relationship.

My ex husband was cheated on by his first wife. AFAIK he never cheated on her and was devastated by her cheating.

But at the time of our divorce I learned he cheated on me every chance he got. With years of hindsight, it pains me to say this, but I really think it was me. He just wasn't that into me. He liked me just fine, but really needed me to raise his three kids that he had custody of. Personality wise, I think I was just too easy/submissive for him. Not challenging enough to really capture his passion. When we divorced he told me about all his cheating and his explanation was "he thought it would be fun." 

He's now married for the fifth time and I don't know but I get the impression he would not cheat on his current wife. No idea about the others. I think age, stage in life, opportunity, level of feeling toward mate, relationship dynamic can all affect whether or not someone cheats.

So: *Once a cheater NOT NECESSARILY always a cheater, but if I learned the person I'm dating cheated in the past? I think I would end things. Even if I trusted them to not cheat on me, the thought that they would do that to anyone would really bother me.
*


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> But at the time of our divorce I learned he cheated on me every chance he got. With years of hindsight, it pains me to say this, but I really think it was me. He just wasn't that into me. He liked me just fine, but really needed me to raise his three kids that he had custody of. Personality wise, I think I was just too easy/submissive for him. Not challenging enough to really capture his passion. When we divorced he told me about all his cheating and his explanation was "he thought it would be fun."


You couldn't be more wrong. I'm sorry you have absorbed part of the blame for actions squarely under his control. You didn't make him an immoral POS. It had nothing to do with you.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> I have a hard time arguing with that line of reasoning.
> 
> I don't think RA's are a healthy response but I don't think they are in the same category either.


Definitely not a healthy response. Hard to blame someone for an RA though. However, I think there are blurred lines. An RA soon after discovery makes a lot more sense to me. Your world’s been torn apart, you feel horrible, there’s sadness, anger, disbelief, hatred but also love, confusion….an immediate RA – maybe in the first 6 months, makes a lot of sense. So many hurt feelings and confusion. An RA a year later, 2 years, 3 – 10? That to me isn’t revenge anymore. You know how it feels, you know how it hurts, but yet you’re going to purposely do that to someone? Doesn’t really matter if they hurt you or not. To know how it feels, to have been through that pain and then to purposely do it anyway….that’s a special kind of punishment IMO. And if revenge to that level is in your mind, why are you in R anyway?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> An RA soon after discovery makes a lot more sense to me. Your world’s been torn apart, you feel horrible, there’s sadness, anger, disbelief, hatred but also love, confusion….an immediate RA – maybe in the first 6 months, makes a lot of sense. So many hurt feelings and confusion. An RA a year later, 2 years, 3 – 10? That to me isn’t revenge anymore.


I agree with this. Some men need this to reclaim their masculinity or women their desirability. Who the hell is the WS to judge after what they did?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I’d say that can be false. I’m an amazing wife short of what I did 4 years ago for 30 seconds. I cook dinner roughly 5 nights a week, almost every time what he would prefer to eat. He’s diabetic, I cater my menu to him and make sure he has things he’s supposed to eat. I do all of the grocery shopping, couponing, carrying in and putting away. I do all of the cleaning, all of the laundry, all of the running of the kids. I pay all of the bills, budget all of the money. I take care of the dogs, buy all of their food, take them to the vet, take them on walks and car rides, give them their baths. I pick up his medication and his insulin. If I’m out driving around running errands and he texts and says he wants something, I’ll stop and get it, even if it’s out of the way. Sometimes, I’ll drive it all the way home and go back out to finish my stuff just so he can have what he needs. If he plops his foot on my lap, he gets a foot rub. He gets back rubs several nights a week. He doesn’t leave the couch on weekends while I work from sun up to sun down on household chores. I work overtime at my primary job and have a second job to help pay the bills. If he mentions he wants something, he gets it. I shower him with affection, non stop. I hug him 2-3 times a day, kiss him more than that and sex is at his fingertips any time he wants it – 5-7 times a week. If we go on a date, we do what HE wants, even for my birthday. We finally got to go on our first vacation last year. We went where he wanted to go. I give him random gifts just because. I tell him please and thank you for everything and I tell him I appreciate the things that he does. I’ve extended more forgiveness to this man than any one person ever should. I’m decent looking, I’m in good shape. I get along with his friends, he’s never told he “can’t” do something like hang out with the guys. He does “guy stuff 3-4 times a week, every week” I could go on, and on and on. Not everyone who cheats is a sh*tty spouse.


With all do respect though very sacrificial and giving I think what you described there is more akin to a Mother child relationship (excluding the sex of course), not a husband and wife. I wonder if this contributed to the cheating in some way. I wonder if there were not so covert contracts being set up by you. "I will basically give you everything you want, but you have to give me everything I want". 

This kind of thinking is not a healthy way to think of a marriage and with all do respect isn't what a man of character wants of his wife. I personally would be embarrassed if my wife had to do all these things for me. In the same respect I expect my wife to be my partner not my kid (if you get the analogy). I am trying really hard here not to put you down because I absolutely believe that your motives were right, but I think what your idea of a good wife is and what a good wife should be are different, at least for what I would want in a wife. 

There is something to be said for you partner challenging you and also expecting you to live up to their reasonable expectations. So forgive me again but in reading you posts and hearing these things I think you need to work through some of this stuff. I would bet that some of this kind of thinking lead to that 30 seconds. It wasn't a healthy dynamic and in a way you enabled it. You should read "No more Mr nice guy", it's written for men but I think it could fall under some of this. 

Just my two cents.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> I personally don't really consider revenge affairs "cheating" or at least not in the same category.
> 
> What's good for the goose, is good for the gander in my opinion. The POS's who started it, had it coming.


I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree. I took my vows seriously. I'm proud of myself for remaining faithful all 22+ years of marital misery.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> I agree with this. Some men need this to reclaim their masculinity or women their desirability. Who the hell is the WS to judge after what they did?


How does lowering oneself to the level of the WS 'reclaim their masculinity'? I don't get it.

The WS has no right to judge. Future potential mates do, though. To me it's just icky and degrading, and if I knew a guy had done this I'd probably not want a relationship with him. If one of my kids was contemplating a RA I'd be telling them in no uncertain terms it was a BAD idea.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

prunus said:


> I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree. I took my vows seriously. I'm proud of myself for remaining faithful all 22+ years of marital misery.


I have never cheated either, including RAs. That's not me, I'd rather leave. I simply would NEVER fault anyone who did.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> How does lowering oneself to the level of the WS 'reclaim their masculinity'? I don't get it.
> 
> The WS has no right to judge. Future potential mates do, though. To me it's just icky and degrading, and if I knew a guy had done this I'd probably not want a relationship with him. If one of my kids was contemplating a RA I'd be telling them in no uncertain terms it was a BAD idea.


Respectfully disagree and I appreciate what you are saying. It's not the same thing to me.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Personally I never understood this question around the aftermath of cheating, to me it doesn't matter if they will do it again, once is enough. I think the better question is what kind of people do you allow in your romantic-life? How do you expect to be treated and what are the ramifications of the person treating you in such a poor way? What would it say to other, as far as how I demand to be treated, when I am willing to continue in the most personal way with the person who has hurt me the most. What does it do to ones soul and self respect if someone can abuse them and yet you still maintain such a close and dependent relationship? Is this really a healthy choice?

I would and have asked myself what kind of person am I if I let someone treat me so poorly and continue to associate with them? What does that say about my feeling of morality? Where does the reconciliation start to encroach on my dignity? 

No person is worth my honor, even if that person is me wanting to R. I have always said if someone blatantly cheated I would adamantly reject R, if I were to change my mind at that point, what kind of person would I be. 

I am sure this thinking is very foreign to many.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

BetrayedDad said:


> You couldn't be more wrong. I'm sorry you have absorbed part of the blame for actions squarely under his control. You didn't make him an immoral POS. It had nothing to do with you.


Thank you for the kind words. I agree I am not responsible for his being an immoral POS. I was crazy about him at the time and treated him and his children wonderfully. He was in the navy and went out to sea a week after we got married and later told me he slept with someone else in the first port he hit. He didn't even TRY to be faithful. I bear no blame for that.

However, had I had more strength and self respect I never would have married someone like him in the first place. So no, I am not responsible for him being a POS, but I am in my 50's in my second marriage that has lots of problems (though no cheating!) and I realize that at some point I have to take responsibility for how I let other's treat me. I don't cause other's to do wrong, but it is my fault if I have low standards and bury my head in the sand and let other people manipulate, use and abuse me.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

sokillme said:


> With all do respect though very sacrificial and giving I think what you described there is more akin to a Mother child relationship (excluding the sex of course), not a husband and wife. I wonder if this contributed to the cheating in some way. I wonder if there were not so covert contracts being set up by you. "I will basically give you everything you want, but you have to give me everything I want".
> 
> This kind of thinking is not a healthy way to think of a marriage and with all do respect isn't what a man of character wants of his wife. I personally would be embarrassed if my wife had to do all these things for me. In the same respect I expect my wife to be my partner not my kid (if you get the analogy). I am trying really hard here not to put you down because I absolutely believe that your motives were right, but I think what your idea of a good wife is and what a good wife should be are different, at least for what I would want in a wife.
> 
> ...


My marriage is sh*t and I’m fully aware of it. My point is, I take care of my husband in ways most men won’t be taken care of. He’s spoiled like a child, I’d do anything for him. He has little responsibility and has all the fun he wants to have. His friends have told him several times he has no idea how good he has life. 

He doesn’t want a partnership. I really don’t think he wants a marriage in any way. He want(s)(ed) someone to be there for him, to take care of him, love him, put him on a pedestal and give him sex. He has no desire to do the work that marriages take. I’m to be the happy, doting wife and nothing more. I shouldn’t expect anything from him in return. Other than now, since he got flat out caught cheating but doesn’t want to lose his cushy life, he’s NICE to me. NICE. He’s trying to fix 11 years of sh*t with NICE. My husband doesn’t want what most people want out of a marriage. He doesn’t understand what it’s supposed to be. 

There was no covert contract on my behalf. I never planned to do what I did. I never even knew I was susceptible to it. I had poor boundaries and a f*cked up brain that ate up attention. Nothing more.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> Respectfully disagree and I appreciate what you are saying. It's not the same thing to me.


What do you disagree with? I'm trying to understand


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> I think it varies from cheater to cheater and the dynamic of the current relationship.
> 
> My ex husband was cheated on by his first wife. AFAIK he never cheated on her and was devastated by her cheating.
> 
> ...


You are wrong. You do have issues but they involve you taking personally responsibly for a man who is a serial cheater. He would have cheated on Sophia Loren. There was nothing you could do nor being exciting enough to stop him. He is defective. You really need to change your thinking on this. Your husband was never a husband, just a bum.

It's great that you want to take responsibility and maybe even address your issues but you need to identify the right issues. Being challenging enough is not one of them.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

WorkingWife said:


> I don't cause other's to do wrong, but it is my fault if I have low standards and bury my head in the sand and let other people manipulate, use and abuse me.


Fair enough.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Personally I never understood this question around the aftermath of cheating, to me it doesn't matter if they will do it again, once is enough. I think the better question is what kind of people do you allow in your romantic-life? How do you expect to be treated and what are the ramifications of the person treating you in such a poor way? What would it say to other, as far as how I demand to be treated, when I am willing to continue in the most personal way with the person who has hurt me the most. What does it do to ones soul and self respect if someone can abuse them and yet you still maintain such a close and dependent relationship? Is this really a healthy choice?
> 
> I would and have asked myself what kind of person am I if I let someone treat me so poorly and continue to associate with them? What does that say about my feeling of morality? Where does the reconciliation start to encroach on my dignity?
> 
> ...


Somewhat, although I agree with you to a point. I think the best thing a BS can do is kick the WS out and be done with them. DONE. ONLY after that is it possible to R, and only THEN if the WS proves they're a different and better person, because at that point what you had is over, and the only way to be together is to start totally new. No one ever does this though - people are way too scared of the relationship ending. Which should tell them something right there - who the hell wants to be with someone just because they're SCARED??


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> What do you disagree with? I'm trying to understand


That an RA is as bad as cheating or even that its degrading to the BS. The BS did not bring the cheating into the relationship.

Quite the opposite, in some scenarios I could see it being empowering. MANY cheaters cheat because they think they are a special snowflake.

I can't think of a faster way to burst their bubble and force them to sympathize with the pain the BS is feeling by experiencing it for themselves.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> My point is, I take care of my husband in ways most men won’t be taken care of. He’s spoiled like a child, I’d do anything for him. He has little responsibility and has all the fun he wants to have.


And my point is that doesn't make you a good wife. I know I sound mean and yeah I guess I am. Sorry about that but something is wrong that you were willing to do that. You even say it yourself in your post. My point was that people who cheat have issues, they may even be issues that let the BS get away with being a ****ty spouses but that still makes them a bad choice in a mate until they address them. I don't think how you treated your husband disproves my point, it verifies it.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> That an RA is as bad as cheating or even that its degrading to the BS. The BS did not bring the cheating into the relationship.
> 
> Quite the opposite, in some scenarios I could see it being empowering. MANY cheaters cheat because they think they are a special snowflake.
> 
> I can't think of a faster way to burst their bubble and force them to sympathize with the pain the BS is feeling by experiencing it for themselves.


I suppose in some cases this could happen, but in most the person having the RA is going to regret it. They're lowering themselves to the same level as the WS. Would you counsel all BS's to have a RA? If not, why?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> I suppose in some cases this could happen, but in most the person having the RA is going to regret it. They're lowering themselves to the same level as the WS. Would you counsel all BS's to have a RA? If not, why?


No, I counsel virtually every BS here to LEAVE. You and I both know, that many are too weak to do so.

If they refuse, then the BS should use ALL means necessary to try to move on from what the WS did. 

And that certainly includes RAs imo.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> I personally don't really consider revenge affairs "cheating" or at least not in the same category.
> 
> What's good for the goose, is good for the gander in my opinion. The POS's who started it, had it coming.


This may shock some but I agree. I don't think it is a good idea but I think just like in any other contract once one party brakes the stipulations the contract becomes is null and void. Now if you decide to R then you should abide by the terms again, but honestly if I had my way the law would no longer see the contract as valid and if people wanted to stay together they would have to marry again.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> If they refuse, then the BS should use ALL means necessary to try to move on from what the WS did.
> 
> And that certainly includes RAs imo.


Ah, so there's where we disagree. If a BS is too weak to leave, then having a RA is just going to muddy the waters IMO. Often they have very low self esteem - cheating is just going to lower it even further in most cases.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> This may shock some but I agree. I don't think it is a good idea but I think just like in any other contract once one party brakes the stipulations the contract becomes is null and void. Now if you decide to R then you should abide by the terms again, but honestly if I had my way the law would no longer see the contract as valid and if people wanted to stay together they would have to marry again.


But then it isn't even cheating. If you're truly DONE, then it's the same as sleeping with someone before the divorce becomes final. I never did it, but if I had slept with someone after I kicked my husband out, I wouldn't think of it as me cheating on him at all. It would have just been me having sex with someone who I wasn't married to, since I was single. And if he had a problem with that because in HIS mind we weren't moving toward D then that's HIS problem not mine. That isn't a RA at all.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> If a BS is too weak to leave, then having a RA is just going to muddy the waters IMO.


If we are being honest then if they are too weak to leave more likely than not they are too weak to have an RA.

They didn't leave because their self esteem is probably in the toilet and their WS in on a pedestal a mile high. 

An RA would only "jeopardize" their delusional attempts to "nice back" the cheater from their on going affair.

Obviously every situation is different but speaking in generalities, this usually holds true.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

browser said:


> MAJDEATH said:
> 
> 
> > My W cheated multiple times, partly because I told her to, and partly because she wanted to.
> ...


Come on guys, my posts are not that bad. But back on topic - my fWW cheated once, then cheated again, again, again and was getting close to another A. So what percent recidivism rate would that be?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> No one ever does this though - people are way too scared of the relationship ending. Which should tell them something right there - who the hell wants to be with someone just because they're SCARED??


There are some, spaceghost, some hunter guy on here who basically found out years later, but his kid knew for years riverrat or something, a woman on SI who just dumped her husband. She had a great post about how she doesn't need counseling when her husband asked her to go to marriage counseling. I don't need counseling, I didn't cheat! The husband of a women who posted on LS. He just ended it and she was left sucking her thumb. @Clemson who just posted the other day. He will be in good shape in about a year. 

IF people know who I am talking about help me out.

In everyone of those thread the BS ended off much better then the WS, and just better off in general. 


The thing is just like affairs have discernible patterns so does recovery. If you are assertive and move on in strength you almost always do better. Those who operate out of fear mostly end up trapped and unhappy.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> But then it isn't even cheating. If you're truly DONE, then it's the same as sleeping with someone before the divorce becomes final. I never did it, but if I had slept with someone after I kicked my husband out, I wouldn't think of it as me cheating on him at all. It would have just been me having sex with someone who I wasn't married to, since I was single. And if he had a problem with that because in HIS mind we weren't moving toward D then that's HIS problem not mine. That isn't a RA at all.


I guess I'm just odd. I would still see that as cheating. Prior to the Final Decree, you still would have been married. Perhaps, I'm too loyal.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> There are some, spaceghost, some hunter guy on here who basically found out years later, but his kid knew for years riverrat or something, a woman on SI who just dumped her husband. She had a great post about how she doesn't need counseling when her husband asked her to go to marriage counseling. I don't need counseling, I didn't cheat! The husband of a women who posted on LS. He just ended it and she was left sucking her thumb. @Clemson who just posted the other day. He will be in good shape in about a year.
> 
> IF people know who I am talking about help me out.
> 
> ...


Are those people who did kick the cheater out, is that what you're saying?


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

prunus said:


> I guess I'm just odd. I would still see that as cheating. Prior to the Final Decree, you still would have been married. Perhaps, I'm too loyal.


If the other pending divorce party is going to town, I don't know what you are waiting for...

If you both agreed out of mutual respect to wait until the final degree, then kudos to you both.

Rarely does that ever happen.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

prunus said:


> I guess I'm just odd. I would still see that as cheating. Prior to the Final Decree, you still would have been married. Perhaps, I'm too loyal.


Well, in my mind I am also extremely loyal, but my divorce took 4 years and no freaking way was I waiting THAT long for sex once I met the guy I wanted to marry the second time.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Well, in my mind I am also extremely loyal, but my divorce took 4 years and no freaking way was I waiting THAT long for sex once I met the guy I wanted to marry the second time.


Mine (well legal separation, not divorce) took about 7 weeks. But, I had a sexless marriage so I guess I'm just used to it. But, yes 4 years is a long time!


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> If the other pending divorce party is going to town, I don't know what you are waiting for...
> 
> If you both agreed out of mutual respect to wait until the final degree, then kudos to you both.
> 
> Rarely does that ever happen.


We didn't have an agreement, that's just me. He's a serial cheater so it didn't matter where our relationship was, he did what he wanted anyway.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Come on guys, my posts are not that bad. But back on topic - my fWW cheated once, then cheated again, again, again and was getting close to another A. So what percent recidivism rate would that be?


Well beyond the point that you even need to consider whipping out a calculator.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Are those people who did kick the cheater out, is that what you're saying?


The ones who took swift action seemed to have done better. Everyone of those people just moved on. They had some months of pain but eventually they seemed happy.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

sokillme said:


> The ones who took swift action seemed to have done better. Everyone of those people just moved on. They had some months of pain but eventually they seemed happy.


Add me to that list. Totally agree with you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Come on guys, my posts are not that bad. But back on topic - my fWW cheated once, then cheated again, again, again and was getting close to another A. So what percent recidivism rate would that be?


:crying:


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Add me to that list. Totally agree with you.


It's a miracle. You never said your Baseball team.


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## prunus (Oct 29, 2016)

sokillme said:


> The ones who took swift action seemed to have done better. Everyone of those people just moved on. They had some months of pain but eventually they seemed happy.


I didn't take swift action and that was a HUGE mistake!


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Not every time but more often than not in my long experience. One of the first things I learned in Psychology is that a person's past behavior is a very good indicator of their future behavior. Every person I knew who cheated, did it again. Most do not get caught as easily the second time though.


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## Seppuku (Sep 22, 2010)

I think people misinterpret the saying "once a cheater always a cheater.". To me, it means that a person has shown themselves to be capable of cheating, whether due to circumstance or just because they can't help themselves, so the possibility that it will happen again will always be present.

Personally, I agree with this notion. I know that I will never, ever be able to fully trust my wife again. However, we are in a sexless marriage so honestly I don't much care. We are pretty much roommates and coparents, the is no real intimacy between us anymore.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Seppuku said:


> I think people misinterpret the saying "once a cheater always a cheater.". To me, it means that a person has shown themselves to be capable of cheating, whether due to circumstance or just because they can't help themselves, so the possibility that it will happen again will always be present.
> 
> Personally, I agree with this notion. I know that I will never, ever be able to fully trust my wife again. However, we are in a sexless marriage so honestly I don't much care. We are pretty much roommates and coparents, the is no real intimacy between us anymore.


Why stay?


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Why stay?


Divorce can be VERY expensive.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*And a lot like me as a two-time BS, you just become so damned jaded and untrusting over the due course of time, that you just think that even if you married some convent-residing nun, that they'd probably end up cheating on you too!*


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