# Here it goes...



## NotSo

I have been on this message board since May; that's when I caught my wife in an EA with a former boyfriend (text). I caught her while we were out with friends and later that night, after I took her phone, realized the lie she told me about having to work in another town the following Tues and may have to stay the night, rather, it was to meet him (he lives 8 hours away and was visiting our city for business). He is married with children.
In March we had our 20th anniversary, we have 2 kids, boy 18 daughter 15. I wish I did the 180 from the start, but did the pity bu11sh1t act that I regret now. A couple days after I caught her, she sent him an email saying how sorry she was for getting caught, saying "please don't hate me, I have cried for 4 days thinking of you" and ended the letter by saying "you know where to find me if you can forgive me". He has did not respond to her, she says whatever I told him that night (cause I called him) scared the SH1T out of him. I guess, at that time, I knew this was a deal breaker for me...I half assed tried to reconcile, but didn't give my all. We decided to give R a shot until August and re-evaluate the situation.
Now it gets a messy...A younger female, i have known over a year provided a caring listening ear, gave me advice, etc...that started my EA with a girl 18 years younger than me which after a month turned into a full on PA in June.
Last week, I told my wife I want a separation...she said if I do move out there will be no chance of R. She has since backed off that saying it will be difficult for R...Monday I told the kids I was moving out, they took it better than I could ever imagine, very understanding - they more mature (18 - 15) and can sense things I guess. I put down a deposit on an apartmment and I am moving out this coming Wednesday.
My plan was to get IC for a couple months and then try to talk my wife into MC...knowing I would have to divulge my PA and deal with the fallout. So...Last night I am on the IPAD and see where she logged onto a social networking site and messaged him, don't know what was messaged...BUT, I do now know who he is, where he works, where he lives, what his wifes name is, and where she works (she never told me anything about him other than former boyfriend).
This was the final straw for me...now, I have to tell her I know who he is, that I am going to call and tell his wife (make his life as miserable as my life has been - FCK him) I now want no R, I am going to separate and start the D process.
Sorry for the long post, I welcome any and all comments.


----------



## keko

Before telling your wife anything, I'd suggest you actually read the message itself.


----------



## EleGirl

Don't tell her that you are going to tell his wife. It will give her a chance to warn the wife. Just tell the wife and send her any evidence you have.


----------



## Couleur

Let me get this straight -- 

You haven't told your wife *you* are having an affair, but you want to out her own affair to the OM's wife?

I can understand exposing the affair if you thought it would help save your marriage but this seems like revenge. Be the man your kids think you are.


----------



## wiigirl

EleGirl said:


> Don't tell her that you are going to tell his wife. It will give her a chance to warn the wife. Just tell the wife and send her any evidence you have.


:iagree:


----------



## TCx

Sorry mate but you're being a hypocrite. 

You cheated on your wife. You may have reason to be angry at her for her falling for another man, but you have lost the moral high ground now.

Worse still, you're in it doubly bad because you're going through *both* the BS and WS fogs and you're no doubt going to say 'she did it first', if not out loud then at least to yourself.

Whether yours was a revenge A or you just fell into it doesn't matter. You had an affair.

Calm down. Get IC. 

From my experience as a WS, I will say that the first six months after D-Day for me were hell. My head and my emotions were all over the place. There were times when I curled up on the floor and just started sobbing uncontrollably. I lashed out at my wife a few times, rather unfairly I might add, and said some pretty horrible things to her, things that I wish that I could take back... but can't. 

You're doing the same thing here and you don't even realize it yet.


----------



## NotSo

Thanks for your replies...I guess I do not hide my anger and feelings of betrayal...my wife, through all of this maintains that nothing happened and it wasn't that big of a deal?? I even printed off, from this site, how to act when your the WS, she never took the responsibility.
No, I have not admitted my PA to her, hypocritical? I suppose I am guilty, I know I have not handled things perfectly throughout, I was blindsided by the person I considered my best friend. I am about 90% sure I do not want any R now.
Thank you all for the advice...I have plans this week to start the IC.


----------



## TCx

Hmm.. been thinking about your situation. You say the following:

Your heart wasn't really into R
You want to expose
You had a PA with a girl who is 18y younger than you are
That a message sent [that you haven't read] to an old bf is 'the last straw' for you (you don't say if she violated an agreement in doing this)

Can I ask why you weren't really all that into R in the first place? Anger, hurt, confusion, "the right thing to do" (tm)?

The fact that you W has reached out to her AP means that she's not over him [not surprising btw; I'm still obsessed with my OW; every day is a struggle not to reach out to her] and it seems, to me, like you are looking for any excuse to end the marriage without being the bad guy. And the fact that a much younger woman has stroked your ego now you've concluded that you have more 'options' than having to stick with your wayward wife and are now looking to explore those options. Is the real reason that you don't want to R or is it because of you W's infidelity? I'd wager that it's both.

If I'm honest, I don't think that you are in any shape for MC yet. You have soooo much healing to do and you don't even realize it yet. I'm glad that you'll get IC. But I suspect that I already know what decision you will come up with. You're going to mentally work yourself toward that decision in IC. 

As for your W, if she's not taking responsibility for it then she's going to be a long time healing too. I wonder if a separation might not be in order for the two of you. Maybe, maybe not, I'm no expert.

The truth is, though, that the two of you are so angry/hurt/guilty right now that neither of you are thinking straight. You're in for a very long road to recovery and you have my deepest sympathies. Take care of yourself.


----------



## C3156

NotSo said:


> my wife, through all of this maintains that nothing happened and it wasn't that big of a deal??


This is the same woman who said this:



NotSo said:


> "please don't hate me, I have cried for 4 days thinking of you" ... "you know where to find me if you can forgive me"


Give me a break. Ask most women, an EA is way worse than a pure PA. There is that element of emotional attachment that goes along with an EA which really is the deal breaker. She cried for 4 days, yes something happened. Even my wife admits that she could understand me having a one night stand for sex, not that I would, but an EA would be unforgivable.



NotSo said:


> No, I have not admitted my PA to her, hypocritical? I suppose I am guilty, I know I have not handled things perfectly throughout, I was blindsided by the person I considered my best friend. I am about 90% sure I do not want any R now.


Are you a hypocrite? You bet you are, revenge or not, you are just as guilty as your wife. 

The IC will help you to uderstand what has happened but you truly need MC to understand the how & why. As crappy as it sounds, if you want to reconcile with your wife, you are going to have to come clean. You both need to admit you made mistakes and be willing to make the changes to improve your marriage. The affairs happened for a reason, you were not meeting each others needs in the relationship and sought solace somewhere else. It will take a long time but your marriage can be fixed but you both have to want to try.

You moving out will be a death sentence for your marriage. "Trial" separations rarely work out as they signal that one party does not care any longer to the other. If you believe there is an ounce of hope for your marriage, don't leave.

Another reason not to move out, read The List from another website concerning divorce for Dad's:Divorce Forum and Child Custody Forum • View topic - THE LIST (Print It) 

Read it and learn. Moving out of the marital home is the #1 reason men get screwed in Family Court.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> my wife, through all of this maintains that nothing happened and it wasn't that big of a deal?? I even printed off, from this site, how to act when your the WS, she never took the responsibility.


I don't know the history here but if you've got her red handed and she's still denying then you need to change the game somehow. There are a number of ways to do that, like confronting her with the new information that you've got. You might even tell her about your own A, though please don't take that as advice. I have a feeling that doing so would end your M outright... I don't know. But then maybe it would teach her how you feel... again, I don't know.



NotSo said:


> I know I have not handled things perfectly throughout


People in pain almost never do. You screwed up and it's good that you own that.



NotSo said:


> I was blindsided by the person I considered my best friend.


Understandable. In time, you will probably find that this sense of betrayal will fade (if you don't cling to it). I'm not saying that you should R or D; just that the whirlwind that you're going through will end eventually; given about a year or so (yeah, it seems to take at least that long to make real progress). 

People make mistakes. Sometimes they see it, sometimes they don't. I think you see it. Good on you for getting IC. Good luck.


----------



## ItMatters

Couleur said:


> Let me get this straight --
> 
> You haven't told your wife *you* are having an affair, but you want to out her own affair to the OM's wife?
> 
> I can understand exposing the affair if you thought it would help save your marriage but this seems like revenge. Be the man your kids think you are.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## TCx

C3156 said:


> Ask most women, an EA is way worse than a pure PA. There is that element of emotional attachment that goes along with an EA which really is the deal breaker. She cried for 4 days, yes something happened. Even my wife admits that she could understand me having a one night stand for sex, not that I would, but an EA would be unforgivable.


Interesting. I'd have thought that women would respond with the opposite until they've been involved with any kind of infidelity. 

Hell, until I had an EA, I had never even heard of the concept. And my wife had only ever told me that sleeping with another woman, without her permission, was a deal breaker.

Yes... she said that I could sleep with other women provided that they were pre-approved by her; strange that she never approved anyone.


----------



## somethingelse

So you both have had EA over a 5 month period, and you have had a full out A with someone already....and have you told your wife about this? 
Are you not sorry enough to admit that you have done the same as your wife? That you caved too? You both have fallen short, so why is it time for a separation? Now that you've already decided to leave, why call this guy's wife? Would you not agree that by doing that, you would be giving your wife reason to do the same with this young lady you have been in an A with? 
I'm not trying to be so crude about your choices. But you sound like someone who has been faithful throughout all of this....but have not.
When does the BS end?


----------



## mc1234

Were you 90% sure you didn't want R before you met some else? You need to ask yourself, did your PA give you the impetus and confidence to leave your marriage? Are you being blinded by the fact you have found someone 18 years younger?

Your wife was wrong in her EA. you were wrong in your EA/PA. You have to both ask yourselves , 'How much do BOTH of you really want your marriage to work?'. it sounds as though you are both ready to throw in the towel. 

Why not give yourselves 6 months and if you and your wife still feel for the OW and OM, I say go D, but give your marriage a chance first.


----------



## Gabriel

Couleur said:


> Let me get this straight --
> 
> You haven't told your wife *you* are having an affair, but you want to out her own affair to the OM's wife?
> 
> I can understand exposing the affair if you thought it would help save your marriage but this seems like revenge. Be the man your kids think you are.


Completely :iagree:

Being vindictive while you have your little revenge thing going translates to you being a little wimp about this.

Be a man. Own up that the marriage is dead and just do the steps needed to move on without each other. Quit playing games.


----------



## jh52

You both acted selfishly with no thought to your kids. Please get out of this toxic marriage so the kids don't have to get hurt anymore.

Kids look up to their parents as role models -- something else you both failed.

Good luck !!


----------



## NotSo

jh- thanks for your response, failure at marriage and failing to deal or handle difficult situations in marriage...guilty! Failure as parents...that's pretty tough...both are incredibly well rounded kids, never been in trouble, both make excellent grades, son starting college next week on an academic and athletic scholarship, daughter should be able to qualify for time trials for the 2016 olympics in swimming, both have a great circle of friends...my wife is an incredible nurturing mother, I have coached many of my sons little league teams and I have turned down 8 job offers in the past 7 years so my kids can stay in this great school district and remain a part of the circle they have built over the years.
I accept my short comings and failures in my marriage, I am not perfect nor do I claim it. To be called a failure as a father, and my wife as a mother - your pushing the Bu11sh1t button a little too hard.
For all the other responses, dday I was told no contact would ever take place with the OM ...that was a lie with the letter she wrote him a couple days later...
Ok, I hear you...vindictive, retaliation, etc...I guess that has been a defense for me all my life, I have always believed an eye for an eye...and yes, I think I thought it was "ok" for me to progress with an EA-PA of my own - I will say this for 100% certain...had my wife not done this, I would not have put myself where I am now.
I am doing the IC for sure, will make the appt tomorrow. I am moving out-not because of my PA, because I can't stay here and my wife will not agree to counseling, either IC or MC. The question I want to be able to answer over the next several months is, do I want to work on my marriage - things haven't been great for us for 5 years, no huge fights, money is good, just drifted way apart. Prior to my wife starting this thing, neither has ever strayed, though we could have...our sex life was non-existent, only several times a year.
Again, thank you for ALL your input, I was nervous about putting this out there. I am getting something out of every one of you.


----------



## TCx

Unlike the rest of the group I'm going to preach moderation. You both screwed up, you both fell short of your vows, for as stupid as that sounds, it's something. However, whether either of you want to stay in your marriage anymore is up to the two of you. The old saying, "Don't make decisions when you're angry" definitely holds here.

You are going to experience a deep sense of guilt as a result of the messages above and in feeling that guilt, it may push you to do something that you might not want to do. Having said that, if D is what you want, this could be the impetus that you've needed for a long time.

I agree that if you've mentally left the marriage and you really don't want to be married to her anymore then it's time to get away from her. But if the reason that you don't want to be with her anymore is because of your own guilt and or shame, or because of the hurt that her EA has caused you then you need to take the time to heal. Or are you in love with your AP and that's why you want to leave?

That's why I suggested that separation might be an option; get away from the person that it pains you to see (because your W is a source of pain in your life right now). That, and talking with your W about everything, getting her to understand how she's hurt you and yes, IMHO, you do need to own up to your own A to her and boy are you in for one hell of an emotional roller coaster ride when she finds out. But at least give her the respect that you would want her to give you. Give her the option to deal with her side of the infidelity.

Let me ask you this; did you want to leave before her A? Were there rumblings of unhappiness all along? Please remember that we, as WS' often tell ourselves that the marriage was broken before our A (I did) so try to at least be honest with yourself now because you will eventually be honest with yourself later.

Again, you're in a pretty horrible place, mentally, right now. Your emotions are all over the place. Please don't mistake me for preaching inaction. I'm glad you're getting IC, your wife should probably get it too, but it sounds like she's not that interested... and that's because she's still in denial. It took me months and a lot of soul searching to come out of mine.


----------



## NotSo

TCx, very insightful...I know my emotions are out of whack and I am hopeful with counseling and time this can waiver where I can forgive and move past it (which that is all my wife wants, for me to forget and forgive her). But with her not giving me all the information about her EA, and me finding stuff out 3 months later??? I just talked to her and told her I found out she either messaged him last friday or called or is staying in contact with him...I dont know how, but she denied it, when I have proof and wasnt even looking for proof. 
I texted her earlier today saying we needed to talk tonight, when she called, she wanted to talk now...I told her I am moving out Wednesday...she said she was hoping I was going to tell her I am staying. I think, no, I know she will change her mind if I told her about my EA/PA.
Next, I think your right, I need to tell her about my EA/PA, not sure when though?? tonight? after I get counseling? Before, if she agrees, we start counseling?
Am I in love with my AP? Great question, I have feelings of love but not sure if its the "fog" of being with someone else after 21 years with only 1 person. Can I see myself with this woman for the rest of my life, yes and no. I can because of the way we make each other feel, no because deep down I know she wants things in her life that I have already experienced - kids. I dont know if I want to be a 60 something year old with a teenager? I feel confident though this is not the reason I am separating (to be with my AP), honestly, its a factor, but not the reason. Did I want to leave before my and my wifes affair? Yes, I have had the thoughts and dreams of it...our marriage has been shaky to say the least for years.
One poster called me a hypocrite...they're right...because as you pointed out, I used my wife's EA and our broken marriage an excuse to move forward with my EA/PA and it is giving me an excuse to separate...and it comes back to this question...Do WE want to stay married and work on this or WE dont? 
She say's, not shows, that she wants to stay together...I do nor say neither, because I do not know.


----------



## somethingelse

I think if you don't tell your W about your own EA, you are only hurting you both more. It's not fair to your W by you keeping that hidden. I have a feeling like you still care about your W because you don't want her to know about your EA, and you are talking about MC right? That counts for something.

I would say tell your W right away asap. Open up to her face to face, alone somewhere. And show that you are still her H. It just sounds like you both are in a whirlwind of confusion and need each other alone for a bit to talk. 

But in order to have any effectiveness in MC or anything like it, you need to come clean the both of you. Talk to each other first. Might as well. You've been married for 20 years. 

Does this younger woman you are seeing know you are married? If so, when did you tell her?


----------



## NotSo

somethingelse, the younger woman knew I was married the first day I met her over a year ago. From the day I met her I was drawn to her, not in any inappropriate way (never thought someone like that would be interested in me). We were, and still are, very good friends. We both are very similar and have just "clicked" every time we were together. Can I go back to just being friends with her? Yes, because I care deeply for her and her happiness. I have never had a relationship with a woman like i have with her...no matter what happens in her, mine, our lives, we both agree that we will continue our friendship...we have agreed to stop any and all physical contact until I get my life squared away...which looks like it will take a while.


----------



## Couleur

My spouse had an EA/PA with a coworker. It's been 3 years since they broke off physical contact and he still struggles because he is drawn to her. I truly believe that the affair fog has made it nearly impossible for H and I to work on rebuilding our relationship. Like you, he somehow thought he could go on just being friends with the AP. Can it be done? I suppose, but it strikes me as similar to having an alcoholic continue to work as a bartender. The chances for staying sober are slim, and even if the person succeeds the cost of the struggle will leave him so drained it will be hard to have energy/ enthusiasm to put towards the rest of his life.

in short -- even if your wife had never had an EA (and I realize that setting aside that reality is impossible given the hurt it has caused you), your marriage would be facing an uphill battle because you have not truly broken it off with your AP (continuing to work in the same place & see this woman even if you are refraining from sex means that you haven't given her up). My H and I continue to try to work at our marriage because our children are small. In your case, what would be the motivation to work things out with your wife? Would you consider changing jobs so you can cut off all contact with OW?


----------



## NotSo

Couleur, where I am now, I do not know if I have the necessary motivation to work things out with my wife or want to. Should I try because that's what your "supposed" to do? Or do I get motivated to work on my marriage because I said I would 20 years ago, motivate for my kids and for the future like we had planned for before this past May? I am the WS who said I would commit to counseling, she said she would rather not.
I / we have not been happy with our marriage for a long time, this was a wake up call for us both, it may sound corny but a line from one of my favorite movies, "either get busy living, or get busy dying" seems applicable here. I want to be happy, I think she does but doesn't act like it.


----------



## somethingelse

First off, I wanted to say this girl you got into an A with is pathetic and you should have never gotten involved with her. Sorry. I say this because you said your wife has been trying to work on the relationship with you since March (the time she cheated) and since then this girl you're hanging around allows for an A. Talk about stepping on your wife's toes when you and your W were in a rock and a hard place. You should have never confided in this girl. 

So, you separate your wife, divide your family, without telling your W that you've had an EA with a young, naive girl. And THEN decide to go and snoop on your W who has been left by you. Find out she may have contacted the guy that she had an A with....what was the point of this? You left. You didn't say why to her? If you didn't want her to relapse, you should have been on the marriage side instead of your own selfish side and you should stayed on that track. 

You strayed while trying to fix the marriage at the same time....that doesn't work. Why did you think that you and your W would even stand a chance? You never gave your W a chance at all. Sounds to me like she was on the track to goodness...and you stomped all over it.

I'm sorry one again for sounding so mean....but this is just craziness all at once. My advice is...stop talking to that young naive girl who has sabotaged your brain. Get out of this way of thinking. Recognize you have done all the wrong things. Your W did too in the spring, but by the sounds of it she was trying to reconcile with you this whole time, and got bit in the ass. Why bother tracking your W's every move when you left her in the dust? Leave her alone if you don't want to live with her or see her. 

It sounds like such a coincidence that you finally had a full A with this girl, and almost right after, you left your W, found another place to live and then started snooping on your W to see if she's talking with her past A partner....could this be because.. you want to make your W feel like it's her fault you left and not yours? Or that you don't want to tell your W what you've done, because you didn't want her to relapse?


----------



## NotSo

Somethingelse, I was not snooping and I have not left the house yet...to clarify, I came home last Friday, opened up the iPad, went to my bookmarks/history and saw she looked him up/messaged, not sure because she denied even looking him up on that network site, in which she lied again because his name was right there...it was the first time I saw his last name.
Since I caught my wife in this EA, she has made VERY little effort in R, so please do not think she has tried to R since March, I found out about the EA April 30.
I did not sabotage her opportunity for R, the entire of month of May she saw the daily struggle I went through...trickle truthed me to death and would never tell me "what she wanted". As stated earlier, our marriage was not great prior to this, I had thought of separation before, but the age of the kids prevented me.
Did I screw up, yes. I strayed while believing I was working on my marriage, sounds like total B.S. As I wrote that. We both have had opportunities to work this out, and her lack of effort shows me she didn't want this to work either.
I am leaving her alone, when I told her of my discovery last Friday, I told her she can do what she wants to do since I am moving tomorrow. I am not looking at her texts, I am not looking at her call log on the cell phone, haven't in a couple months. I don't know what the future holds, whether we try to again, or simply go our separate ways.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Somethingelse, I was not snooping and I have not left the house yet...to clarify, I came home last Friday, opened up the iPad, went to my bookmarks/history and saw she looked him up/messaged, not sure because she denied even looking him up on that network site, in which she lied again because his name was right there...it was the first time I saw his last name.
> Since I caught my wife in this EA, she has made VERY little effort in R, so please do not think she has tried to R since March, I found out about the EA April 30.
> I did not sabotage her opportunity for R, the entire of month of May she saw the daily struggle I went through...trickle truthed me to death and would never tell me "what she wanted". As stated earlier, our marriage was not great prior to this, I had thought of separation before, but the age of the kids prevented me.
> Did I screw up, yes. I strayed while believing I was working on my marriage, sounds like total B.S. As I wrote that. We both have had opportunities to work this out, and her lack of effort shows me she didn't want this to work either.
> I am leaving her alone, when I told her of my discovery last Friday, I told her she can do what she wants to do since I am moving tomorrow. I am not looking at her texts, I am not looking at her call log on the cell phone, haven't in a couple months. I don't know what the future holds, whether we try to again, or simply go our separate ways.




Ok. So you both have no interest in working on this obviously. So may I ask why you have come on here? I know you said that you wanted to go to MC with your W right? But you keep reverting back to not wanting to work this out with her.... because you had been thinking of leaving before her A. And are you afraid to talk to her about your own A? Or have you already done so? Maybe that would shed some light on this situation for the both of you.

What is it that you truly want from this site? Do you want confirmation that your marriage will or will not work if you try? Do you want to find out if you should divorce now? What exactly is it you are looking for?


----------



## TCx

Been away a while so playing catchup...



somethingelse said:


> I have a feeling like you still care about your W because you don't want her to know about your EA, and you are talking about MC right? That counts for something.


I don't agree. His possible motivations might include:

ashamed of his actions
fearful of exposing his AP to ridicule by his W
fear of conflict; the wife might have a go at him
loss of power in this dynamic; lost of righteousness
unsure whether he wants to end the relationship; if he tells her, she might just end it, taking away his choice

He probably doesn't even know whether he really wants to R or leave either. His motivations to leave could be:

shame over the affair
fed up with his W
desire to be with his AP
WS Fog - marriage has sucked for so long...



somethingelse said:


> I would say tell your W right away asap.
> ...
> But in order to have any effectiveness in MC or anything like it, you need to come clean the both of you.


I'm going to disagree with this. "Experts" say that if a WS has ended an A and they think that they can keep the secret from their BS then it's sometimes less damaging to the relationship. But bear in mind that keeping that kind of secret would require lifelong dedication, which I suspect is beyond most people.

And were it ever to come out, it would very likely end the marriage at that time because the sense of betrayal from your W would be even more prominent.

Telling her is the right thing to do. And if you're not good at keeping secrets from your W, then it's probably the best and safest/least damaging thing to do also.

As for making MC effective, again, I don't agree. I think that MC requires 100% commitment from both parties to make it work. If your A is over and you are 100% committed to making your M work for non-selfish reasons (ie - because you truly love your W and hate the idea of living without her rather than "I am afraid to be alone" or "she is a known quantity"), then you don't need to divulge your A. But I still think you should.



somethingelse said:


> First off, I wanted to say this girl you got into an A with is pathetic and you should have never gotten involved with her


Until you've been a WS I think you'll find it difficult to know what goes on in 'our' heads. WS fog, justification, selfishness, etc, you use the words but I don't think you'll ever understand the subtlety and insidious nature of it.

Maybe I'm misreading you here; maybe you are trying to help the OP smear his mental image of her in his head but what you're more likely doing is insulting someone that he's very fond of. The immediate reaction to that is very likely going to be to defend his AP. And I don't hold that she's pathetic. She's human.

My AP is one of the most moral people that I know. But when I look back on how we interacted and the things that she said, I can see a pattern of her moral resistance wavering one tiny bit at a time and each time it did, the slope got a little more slippery. The progression was basically:

Kept a safe distance
Had dinner together once a week
Dinners starting becoming more frequent as we became more comfortable around each other through work
Sat next to each other the plan/train rides
Talked about ourselves, shared our views on the world, entertained each other while traveling
Offered to help each other with personal matters
Odd texts on the weekend; just friendly
Sex started coming up in conversation but never to do with us; generalities
Started pointing out other people saying, "what do you think of them?" "Nah *eye contact* not my style"
"I don't think that I could ever go for a married man. I think that the guilt of splitting up a family would destroy me"
"I have a friend that is having an A; they are just so happy with each other. He says he's going to leave his W for her; how can he do that to his family?"
"I guess it's the W's response to set boundaries for her H. I mean, a man is going to stray if she doesn't. Especially if they're not that sexually active"
"I think I'm ready to have kids"

It is an addiction and it's one that just creeps up on you. Sure, you justify stuff along the way but it's because you *want* to be near that person; being near them feels 'right', not 'wrong' and no one I know questions something that feels 'right'.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> I do not know if I have the necessary motivation to work things out with my wife or want to.


You don't.



NotSo said:


> Should I try because that's what your "supposed" to do? Or do I get motivated to work on my marriage because I said I would 20 years ago, motivate for my kids and for the future like we had planned for before this past May? I am the WS who said I would commit to counseling, she said she would rather not.


No to all of these. These are not good reasons to R.

You have to want to R and you're not there yet. Instead of focusing on whether or not you should R or not, maybe try asking yourself,

"What did I do wrong in our marriage?"

Right now, you are focusing on what she did wrong. That's important too, but it's important to recognize which behaviors of hers are the result of her and which behaviors are the result of you.

I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday. His W had left him for another man. He said that he did a lot of reading and soul searching and introspection until he finally identified some/many of the things that he'd done badly in his marriage. And he second guessed every negative thing that he'd thought about his W.

He then wrote a letter to her where he listed all of the wrongs that he'd done in the marriage, either through immaturity, naivette, anger, etc, and then asked for her forgiveness for them. He then listed all of the things that he'd perceived as her mistakes and he offered her forgiveness for them. He said that it didn't matter if she responded. What mattered was that it gave him some catharsis; a way to make peace with both him and her.

I love this idea so much that I am writing that same letter to my W now.

I am not sure that you've done enough thinking to be there yet, but you'll get there in time.



NotSo said:


> I / we have not been happy with our marriage for a long time, this was a wake up call for us both, it may sound corny but a line from one of my favorite movies, "either get busy living, or get busy dying" seems applicable here. I want to be happy, I think she does but doesn't act like it.


Boy does this hit my mark. I now recognize my contributions to the failure of our marriage and I'm faced with a choice. Do I take responsibility for my actions (and my in actions too) and work to fix them and trust that she will do likewise? And do I trust her to identify her own failings and work on them too? After all, we've been together for XYZ years already and she's made no move to change before, or if she did, it was always temporary and never lasted more than a couple of weeks.

Btw, your first contribution to the failure of your marriage was not to recognize that because you were unhappy for a long time, so was she. Your second was that the two of you did not work together to identify what it was that was making you unhappy, or that one/both of you ignored the other's signs/pleas for change/help. 

Also, the two of you are speaking completely different languages right now. Your expectation is that you want her to show guilt/remorse rather than move on. That is your expectation that she's failing to live up to.

She is probably feeling pretty shameful about her A and doesn't want to be confronted with her actions so of course she's dismissing them; just like you were dismissing your own A and focusing on her wrong doing.

Either way, the two of you are stressing each other out. And using words like 'moving out' and 'leaving' are actions that send a definitive message. "I don't want to be with you anymore". And this only adds to the stress that both of you are under and it makes the both of you withdraw even more.

Having said that, confessing your A to your W could go one of two ways. It could be the straw that breaks the camels back or it could take some of the pressure off of your W (if she's suffering from immense shame right now).

Again, your emotions are all over the place. If you feel that leaving is the right thing to do, then you should do it, but maybe do it under the premise that you need time to figure stuff out without her around. Schedule regular times to talk about the things that you need to talk about.

Face it, both of you are sources of pain for each other right now and if you're not talking about what's going on in your head and if you're not working together to fix it, you might consider getting away from the thing that pains you. But if you do that, and if you're going to tell your W about your A, then do so before you separate but after you've had some time to discuss it.

Or, if you are going to cut and run, don't bother telling her about the A as that's just going to be something that she can use against you in D-court.


----------



## somethingelse

TCx said:


> Been away a while so playing catchup...
> 
> I don't agree. His possible motivations might include:
> 
> ashamed of his actions
> fearful of exposing his AP to ridicule by his W
> fear of conflict; the wife might have a go at him
> loss of power in this dynamic; lost of righteousness
> unsure whether he wants to end the relationship; if he tells her, she might just end it, taking away his choice
> 
> He probably doesn't even know whether he really wants to R or leave either. His motivations to leave could be:
> 
> shame over the affair
> fed up with his W
> desire to be with his AP
> WS Fog - marriage has sucked for so long...
> 
> 
> 
> Those are the obvious reasons he does not want to tell his W. I know that...and if he is willing to see what he's done, then he will know that too. No need to spell out how shameful an A is.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to disagree with this. "Experts" say that if a WS has ended an A and they think that they can keep the secret from their BS then it's sometimes less damaging to the relationship. But bear in mind that keeping that kind of secret would require lifelong dedication, which I suspect is beyond most people.
> 
> And were it ever to come out, it would very likely end the marriage at that time because the sense of betrayal from your W would be even more prominent.
> 
> Telling her is the right thing to do. And if you're not good at keeping secrets from your W, then it's probably the best and safest/least damaging thing to do also.
> 
> As for making MC effective, again, I don't agree. I think that MC requires 100% commitment from both parties to make it work. If your A is over and you are 100% committed to making your M work for non-selfish reasons (ie - because you truly love your W and hate the idea of living without her rather than "I am afraid to be alone" or "she is a known quantity"), then you don't need to divulge your A. But I still think you should.
> 
> 
> 
> Lies are lies. Lies hold people back, keep them in the dark, and do not allow them to free themselves from guilt and condemnation. I do not agree with keeping something like this hidden. It is not only deceitful...it puts a board in front of you every day and makes every day more painful to bear. I've been through this. It's a pain you can never get rid of. Wouldn't it just be nice to get the truth out and know that if you did, your W or H may want to work it out with you? How would you ever feel good knowing that your W or H would not be with you if told them that you had an A? I wouldn't! That's not a satisfying life. That's living a lie. It's not just about keeping the marriage hunky dory. It's about coming clean and having a real life, whether it's crap or not. We make our bed, we sleep in it. And one more thing....lies cannot be sustained. The truth will reveal itself anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> Until you've been a WS I think you'll find it difficult to know what goes on in 'our' heads. WS fog, justification, selfishness, etc, you use the words but I don't think you'll ever understand the subtlety and insidious nature of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Umm......I have been a WS? and not proud of it either...
> When did you start to make your own assumption that I have not been on this end before? Is it because of how harsh I come across? I have no patience for someone who is completely oblivious and unwilling to see when they are wrong. Period.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm misreading you here; maybe you are trying to help the OP smear his mental image of her in his head but what you're more likely doing is insulting someone that he's very fond of. The immediate reaction to that is very likely going to be to defend his AP. And I don't hold that she's pathetic. She's human.
> 
> 
> 
> As of now, she is being pathetic. Not only have I been a WS..my H has been with girls who know he's married. I have multitudes of experience on this matter. I have been through torture and have had time to think and read and divulge how people think when they are having affairs.. being that I was one at one time. I get it, completely.
> 
> 
> 
> My AP is one of the most moral people that I know. But when I look back on how we interacted and the things that she said, I can see a pattern of her moral resistance wavering one tiny bit at a time and each time it did, the slope got a little more slippery. The progression was basically:
> 
> Kept a safe distance
> Had dinner together once a week
> Dinners starting becoming more frequent as we became more comfortable around each other through work
> Sat next to each other the plan/train rides
> Talked about ourselves, shared our views on the world, entertained each other while traveling
> Offered to help each other with personal matters
> Odd texts on the weekend; just friendly
> Sex started coming up in conversation but never to do with us; generalities
> Started pointing out other people saying, "what do you think of them?" "Nah *eye contact* not my style"
> "I don't think that I could ever go for a married man. I think that the guilt of splitting up a family would destroy me"
> "I have a friend that is having an A; they are just so happy with each other. He says he's going to leave his W for her; how can he do that to his family?"
> "I guess it's the W's response to set boundaries for her H. I mean, a man is going to stray if she doesn't. Especially if they're not that sexually active"
> "I think I'm ready to have kids"
> 
> It is an addiction and it's one that just creeps up on you. Sure, you justify stuff along the way but it's because you *want* to be near that person; being near them feels 'right', not 'wrong' and no one I know questions something that feels 'right'.




When a man or woman decides to step into a marriage, or vice versa. It's so wrong. They may have morals, but they lack in discretion and proceed into something they have no business being in. I only say this when the AP knows that the person is married and still continues with the A despite.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> I am the WS who said I would commit to counseling, she said she would rather not.


What are her motivations behind avoiding counseling? I ask because my W procrastinated on MC so long that I eventually just told her "look, we are not progressing here so we need to change something. I see MC as that change. If you don't want to do MC then we are going to get divorced" (in retrospect, this sounds like an ultimatum when it wasn't meant to be; it was simply a statement of what I considered to be fact; things were getting more difficult for us and I saw D as the only logical conclusion).

I later found out, in MC, why my W didn't want to do MC:

having to confront my EA and admit, to herself, that it had happened
having to deal with the pain that she was feeling over it
fear that I was going to use MC as a means to D
fear of the unknown

In the end, my W ended our MC because her simply denying that anything was wrong was less painful than dealing with it. The sad part is that this is going to be the foundation for our R failing. I'll save the reasoning behind that for my own thread.


----------



## TCx

somethingelse said:


> When a man or woman decides to step into a marriage, or vice versa. It's so wrong. They may have morals, but they lack in discretion and proceed into something they have no business being in. I only say this when the AP knows that the person is married and still continues with the A despite.


I am glad that you challenge other people's views because that really is a good thing but you just don't get it.

As an aside, when you say 'pathetic' do you mean the dictionary version of the word which is involves pitying the person or their actions? Or are you taking the more colloquial definition of the word which involves a degree of contempt? Both involve judgement of another and their actions (which is fair enough, that's what we do as a species) but the emotions behind them are completely different.

Both imply a sense of superiority to the AP but one definition means you judge from sadness (which implies empathy) while the other means that you judge from anger. But both are judgmental (which is fair enough, we are judgmental creates after all and it is our judgments that drive our decision making process).


----------



## somethingelse

TCx said:


> I am glad that you challenge other people's views because that really is a good thing but you just don't get it.
> 
> As an aside, when you say 'pathetic' do you mean the dictionary version of the word which is involves pitying the person or their actions? Or are you taking the more colloquial definition of the word which involves a degree of contempt? Both involve judgement of another and their actions (which is fair enough, that's what we do as a species) but the emotions behind them are completely different.
> 
> Both imply a sense of superiority to the AP but one definition means you judge from sadness (which implies empathy) while the other means that you judge from anger. But both are judgmental (which is fair enough, we are judgmental creates after all and it is our judgments that drive our decision making process).




Did you read all of my responses to your messages to me? Not just the one on the bottom. I do get it. I've been there. I've done that. Pathetic was what I was when I decided to feel sorry for myself and go into A mode. Pathetic was my H for doing the same for so many years before and after. 

I get very angry hearing about it...don't mean to, just do. However, the reasoning behind it is deeper than a lot of people. I have not just had to deal with one time of my H being with an AP who thinks she can steal him away. I've had to deal with a good 8 of them (physically meeting and sleeping with H knowing he's married to me) and to add onto that, who knows how many more that I don't know about. 

I'm sick to death of it if you can understand. I am a very patient woman. I have been through this for years. I am still with my H. I can't be that judgemental when you think about it. I try my best to forgive.

I mean it in more of a "it's sad and stupid" kind of a way. You want to defend your A partner? Good for you. If you were my H, I'd be p&%@ed and feeling much more betrayed as a W. As for me, I don't defend those who choose to step into a marriage knowingly. Look at how many people on this site are having anguish over their S and their A partner? It's horrible.


----------



## TCx

somethingelse said:


> Did you read all of my responses to your messages to me? Not just the one on the bottom.


I thought I had.



somethingelse said:


> I have not just had to deal with one time of my H being with an AP who thinks she can steal him away. I've had to deal with a good 8 of them (physically meeting and sleeping with H knowing he's married to me) and to add onto that, who knows how many more that I don't know about.


Does this still go on? Have the two of you figured out why he does/did this?



somethingelse said:


> I can't be that judgemental when you think about it. I try my best to forgive.


Fair enough. I guess my question is, if this is still happening, why does he do it.



somethingelse said:


> I mean it in more of a "it's sad and stupid" kind of a way. You want to defend your A partner? Good for you. If you were my H, I'd be p&%@ed and feeling much more betrayed as a W.


Not surprised. For me, I do defend my AP; she doesn't have the same context on the situation that I do. She's not had the same experiences and she resisted the EA. Hell, my W even baked her cookies.



somethingelse said:


> As for me, I don't defend those who choose to step into a marriage knowingly. Look at how many people on this site are having anguish over their S and their A partner? It's horrible.


Yeah, the emotional fallout is certainly the biggest lesson that I've taken away from TAM. When I first got here I was amazed by how many people said, "if you want to stray then D" because it just seemed so black and white to me.

It took me a while to clue in to the fact that it was the pain that they'd gone through and the 'life after D' experiences that prompted them to take such a hard line against A's. My only issue with that line is that it seems to be the first one that many BS' draw rather than getting the WS (and BS) to introspect and learn... which, sadly, is a frustratingly long process and can be quite painful to watch sometimes.

I'm no longer in favour of R or D because it all works itself out one way or the other. People who D sometimes get back together and are happier than ever. Some people who R are never happy with each other. It's all part of the lessons we learn in live and it's all part of the journey's we must take. Though I learned that from talking to friends rather than being at TAM.


----------



## somethingelse

TCx said:


> Does this still go on? Have the two of you figured out why he does/did this?
> 
> Fair enough. I guess my question is, if this is still happening, why does he do it.


As far as I know, for the past three weeks my H has been faithful all around (no online dating/meeting/texting). Because I told him I wouldn't come back home if he continued, or did it again. But since I have met him he has had an "addiction" so he called it...but I only found this out about three years into our R. He wants affection from other women all the time. Has since he was 12. 

Why does he do this? I don't know... He has some narcissistic personality traits. Maybe that's why. Self esteem issues maybe. I used to think it was my fault and I did something wrong (was too nice, too loving, patient, trusting) all of the above which lead to resentment, and my A time. 

But I think the biggest reason is he doesn't value people who love him. And he does not value himself. He tries to, but in the end, he gives into other women. It's one thing to go cheat and regroup (feel bad and remorseful). But it's another to continue like he has.
I have a thread on it right now.

That's why I have become impatient of hearing stories of no true self evaluation. I have an H with hardly any.



TCx said:


> Not surprised. For me, I do defend my AP; she doesn't have the same context on the situation that I do. She's not had the same experiences and she resisted the EA. Hell, my W even baked her cookies.


Well that's awful to hear. Hell, I made the bed my H and my ex-friend slept on together too when I let her stay with us.



TCx said:


> Yeah, the emotional fallout is certainly the biggest lesson that I've taken away from TAM. When I first got here I was amazed by how many people said, "if you want to stray then D" because it just seemed so black and white to me.
> 
> It took me a while to clue in to the fact that it was the pain that they'd gone through and the 'life after D' experiences that prompted them to take such a hard line against A's. My only issue with that line is that it seems to be the first one that many BS' draw rather than getting the WS (and BS) to introspect and learn... which, sadly, is a frustratingly long process and can be quite painful to watch sometimes.


I agree.



TCx said:


> I'm no longer in favour of R or D because it all works itself out one way or the other. People who D sometimes get back together and are happier than ever. Some people who R are never happy with each other. It's all part of the lessons we learn in live and it's all part of the journey's we must take. Though I learned that from talking to friends rather than being at TAM.


So what decision did you make in your R?


----------



## TCx

somethingelse said:


> So what decision did you make in your R?


<threadjack>

I'm struggling. We are separated today and headed for D, which, if it happens, will be my doing.

It's an agonizing process and one that I'm struggling to come to terms with. I truly do love my wife, with all my heart; I want her to succeed, I want her to be happy but I also want more for her in life than she has. And that is where my struggle lies, is in the guilt over how much pain I will cause her if I leave.

My W is, in many ways, one of the most beautiful souls that you will ever meet. She is kind, dedicated, affectionate, understanding and exceptionally loyal. But she has extreme self esteem issues (very insecure) and so is always afraid (if conflict, to open up, to ask for things, to make decisions, etc) and she's lazy and gives up very easily.

The self esteem issues stem from her mother (and younger sister) who, I think, never really saw her meet their expectations; they don't understand her and, as a result, they've never really given her any respect. Her younger sister is so much like their mother precisely because, I think, of the way that she saw my W being treated. Ultimately, my W acts in such a way that people very quickly feel very protective of her. Unfortunately, her father was better with her, but her mother divorced him after she had an affair.

And this is how she was raised; she was over-protected, enabled (which bred laziness) and yet disrespected for 'needing' it. (please don't think I'm calling her mom an evil cow; she's not. She's also kind and wants the best for her kids; she just speaks a completely different language to my W; we call her Sgt Slaughter). To my W, love is expressed through affection and doing things for others. She's the Beta.

I am the Alpha. I am a very outgoing, affectionate, paternal (I protect everyone around me) and analytic person. But, like any man, I have my ego which has been up and down over the last few years; but much of my sense of self worth is tied up in personal success (especially at my job). But I am also selfish, materialistic and lazy, in large part, due to my own upbringing but I also have a huge capacity for empathy and guilt.

So you can already see the dynamic of our marriage. My W is happy for me to make all of the decisions and set the direction, sometimes to the detriment of herself. At first I just thought that we were totally in sync. But for years, I have asked her, "why are you afraid of me?" because it's always felt like she thought that I was going to just walk out on her at any minute, even though the thought of it had never even entered my mind. I later figured out that she was giving too much of herself and not saying anything so the guilt would balance out the selfishness and prompt me to proactively pull her opinions out of her and make more equal decisions and compensate with extra attention and affection. But I make the money, handle the finances, do most of the cleaning, yard work, take out garbage, etc etc.

Near the beginning, because of the laziness we have both been happy to just sit by the TV together and veg for hours at a time. But my drive to succeed makes me hate that part of my personality. It has taken us around the world and so we've always had new cities/homes to explore and keep us busy and entertained. Before our daughter was born, I took a less stressful job that allowed me to be home more so we could have kids; it has very nearly killed me and it very nearly killed the marriage. I was unhappy so I started looking for personal projects and home businesses that she and I could do together but I could never get her to engage. She liked talking and dreaming about it but she never actually stepped up and my motivation wouldn't last long, in part due to my own laziness but also because I truly want to do things with my W. So I had a lot of projects on the go that I was committed to with little-to-no help from her and that ate most of my time. I gave up on all of those and started looking to strictly personal projects which took more time away from the marriage.I will happily forgo doing something that I want to in favour of spending time with my W (except if it involves my job) because that's just what you do.

But over the years, I have changed. I now view that spoiled kid that I once was with a degree of disdain. The laziness is something that I strive to kill within myself. I'm still materialistic but I've achieved a degree of success and no longer hunger for 'things' as much as I used to. I am very critical of myself in these regards. Unfortunately, all of these traits that I hate within me are still within my wife and they are not changing. Where I have had the opportunity to grow, she has stagnated, in large part because I have protected her, like her parents, from life. So, in the last 4 years, I have grown more and more frustrated with her (ergo, more critical). Her lack of zest, her inability to keep her commitments, etc demotivates me... and that frustrates me because I already struggle with my own motivation.

Everyday I came home to a mess (and I don't mean just untidy), a daughter that was drooling in front of the TV, bills not paid and then our daughter thrust into my arms because my W had had such a 'hard day'. Eventually, I just stopped participating in the household. I shutdown, became more distant, avoided any responsibility what so ever (just like my W was) and hid in my own little world and I hated myself for it.

And then I started traveling with a young, proactive, intelligent woman that managed her own tie and finances, was communicative (I didn't have to extract her opinions), somewhat materialistic, loves travel, loves trying new things (as I do) and kept her commitments and did what needed to be done and wanted kids. She was more like the person that I want to be; I respect her. I can't say that I respect my W anymore. 

My initial desire to R was a knee jerk reaction to what I was going to lose, specifically my daughter... and my own guilt... and others telling me not to leave until I've done everything I could to make it work. Wrong reasons.

If you read my thread you'll see that I was already half way out the door when I "woke up". MC was spent with the two of us both talking and venting but we didn't talk outside of the counseling; even though I tried; the conversations were always one-sided. I'd ask her for her opinions and she'd always just say "I don't know" or "I have some thoughts but I'm not ready to share them yet". Except she never shared them. I tried so many times to talk to her but she'd just sit there and cry, mostly because she just didn't want to deal with it; she just wants to deny that anything is wrong. Our MC said that my W reminded her of a little girl hiding under the covers from a great big monster (the situation, not me).

And that's where we are right now. We still don't talk about the things that we need to, even when we do speak to each other (we're 5000 mi from each other but we speak weekly). I know that I can not change my W. She will be who she is until she decides to change and she will never do that without external motivators. I struggle with so much guilt because I don't want to be yet one more person in her life to tell her that she's not good enough. The psychological and emotional impact of me fulfilling her self-fulfilling prophecy of me leaving her tears me apart. The guilt that I feel about my protective nature that allowed her to hide behind me, thereby stifling her own growth; that I didn't support her the right way. I struggle with the idea of her being a single mother. I struggle with the idea of her struggling at all; I still want to protect her.

So I ask myself, how do I change? What can I do to make it work? My wife only wants reassurance that I love her; she wants to forget the EA every happened and go back to the way it was. But I can't go back to that marriage; to the lack of communication, honesty and/or operational intimacy. At the end of the day, she is no longer the person that I 'want' to spend my life with. And I hate that the word 'want' because it is all about me and my expectations of her. 

I've tried lying to myself, I've tried giving the affection and receiving it (fake it till you make it), I've tried doing stuff with her. But it's a lie. Until we talk things through and put stuff to rest, we're in limbo and that limbo is pushing us both away from each other. Every day I ask myself why I can't just be happy with her and what I have. Why can't I just be satisfied? Why do I have to hurt her? And in writing this the crying has started all over again. 

I truly do love my wife. I just don't like living with her and I don't like what our future would look like together. _"I love you, but I'm not in love with you anymore"_

That's what my EA did to me. It showed me that there are women out there that are more like what I 'want' from them and from life. I'm not naive enough to think that my OW was perfect; she had her own baggage to carry, but it was baggage that I didn't mind helping her carry.

And every day, I hold on to my W because I'm praying that something will change and one of us will snap out of it. That she'll talk to me or that I'll want less or maybe this fog thing that everyone tells me about will clear up. And every day, the hope dies just a little bit more. One day, very soon, I will just say, "When nothing has changed, it's time to change something" and that's when it will be over.

</threadjack>


----------



## TCx

somethingelse said:


> ... I told him I wouldn't come back home if he continued, or did it again.


Have you started your journal and prepared for the worst?



somethingelse said:


> But I think the biggest reason is he doesn't value people who love him.


I think that's actually quite common for men; or rather, that men show their affection in different ways than women do.



somethingelse said:


> And he does not value himself. He tries to, but in the end, he gives into other women.


To me, that seems to be less about them and more about him. You obviously recognize that.



somethingelse said:


> That's why I have become impatient of hearing stories of no true self evaluation. I have an H with hardly any.


And yet it's that lack of self-evaluation that all of us go through, WS and many BS alike I think. 



somethingelse said:


> I have an H with hardly any.


Ouch. I can sympathize with that last sentence too. I don't need to tell you this as you already know it but, you can't change him. He will be who he is until he dies and some other person is born inside of his body.

Does he really want to change? Is he getting long term behavioral therapy? Because if he does have some personality disorders, I would imagine that would be the most likely way to get him help. If he's been like this forever, he's going to be fighting a behavioral model that's been there his entire life. 

I suspect that doing so may be beyond his capability to do it on his own.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo Sorry for taking over your thread...

TCx Your story is very deep. It's always our desire for our S to turn around and open their eyes isn't it. We want them to see what they cannot see, standing right in front of them or at least see how little they contribute to making a M work. I'm sorry for how your M has panned out and for how your W cannot "come out from under the covers". I hope for hers and for your sake that she will find some help of her own.

I myself never thought that I would ever consider D. I never even thought about it until maybe two months ago. I guess that's why I never had much "game" with my H. He always knew I'd stick around to fight it out. He knew my heart right from the get-go.




TCx said:


> Have you started your journal and prepared for the worst?


All I know is, it took a long time, but my heart is finally in a place where I know that if I leave, I will be ok and I will try to make my children happy so long as I live. No matter what I have to do, how hard I have to work, or the struggles I may have to face living as a single mother, I am strong enough to do it. I can handle a lot of stuff. I already have proven that in my R. I can prove it to myself again. At this point though, I am still in hopes that my H can see how serious I am, enough to stick by what he has promised now..not for my sake or our children's, but for his own.



TCx said:


> To me, that seems to be less about them and more about him. You obviously recognize that.


Very much so



TCx said:


> And yet it's that lack of self-evaluation that all of us go through, WS and many BS alike I think.


I agree




TCx said:


> Ouch. I can sympathize with that last sentence too. I don't need to tell you this as you already know it but, you can't change him. He will be who he is until he dies and some other person is born inside of his body.


A sad reality, I know. I will never be able to change him. I have never really ever tried either. I have just allowed him to be whoever he feels best being and have given him multiple chances and reasons he might want to consider changing for. I never smother him with my "wants". I express them, but very rarely. When I did it was mostly out of hurt and frustration. I've also prayed a lot, and have seen God trying to work in him many times. My hope has always been that he will just open his eyes and see how I do love him and he should love himself enough to get help.



TCx said:


> Does he really want to change? Is he getting long term behavioral therapy? Because if he does have some personality disorders, I would imagine that would be the most likely way to get him help. If he's been like this forever, he's going to be fighting a behavioral model that's been there his entire life.
> 
> I suspect that doing so may be beyond his capability to do it on his own.


I suspect he does want to change. He has said it quite a few times. But no, he is not the type of person who feels therapy would work. I don't think he would go. I agree that he is in over his head though. He does pray on his own time. But as far as getting help from professionals, I don't see it happening. He feels he can do this on his own basically. But like I said, I can't force or change him, I can only give him direction and give him options to choose from. What he chooses from here on out is up to him.


----------



## NotSo

Something - dont apologize for taking over, hopefully this is all of our threads. I am learning so much from not just you and TC, but other post. I am miserable, I moved out Wed. into an aprtment and I miss my daughter incredibly, cant help but cry when I think about her, and honestly I miss my wife (the way we were). My son has seen me everyday, so we are communicating.
I am afraid to talk to my wife, she is pissed...I am thinking I need to let her cool off before asking to speak to her. Something - you asked "what do you want out of this site" - I honestly dont know, maybe it was to just tell someone my story because know one except TAM knows it ALL. TC, I am scared of what my actions have done, I am prepared/preparing to live with the consequences. I continue to ask myself, did I do the right thing and how bad did I FCK up my wife, kids, my life. 
Last night I read a post about a man who caught his wife in an EA, and she denied it was nothing more than just flirting...that was deal breaker for him and he immediatley (emotionally) ended his marriage and will be filing for divorce. My situation is somewhat similar in how I felt back in April (except I caught my W with plans to meet her AP). What he did, and what I did were totally different...I acted as if it wasn't a deal breaker, when in my heart it was...I strayed, I was wrong, but I did what I did and cannot change it. I do not know and will not know what my wife, and myself for that matter, want to do or go from here...as I stated, I am scared to open up to her cause I think she is too pissed to listen.
Something - I am not going to defend my AP, at the beginning she was extremely reluctant (the first couple of times being together alcohol played a part) and is still reluctant (I am reluctant today) and that is why we put the brakes on everything. I used her, and yes, she used me.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Something - dont apologize for taking over, hopefully this is all of our threads. I am learning so much from not just you and TC, but other post. I am miserable, I moved out Wed. into an aprtment and I miss my daughter incredibly, cant help but cry when I think about her, and honestly I miss my wife (the way we were). My son has seen me everyday, so we are communicating.
> I am afraid to talk to my wife, she is pissed...I am thinking I need to let her cool off before asking to speak to her. Something - you asked "what do you want out of this site" - I honestly dont know, maybe it was to just tell someone my story because know one except TAM knows it ALL. TC, I am scared of what my actions have done, I am prepared/preparing to live with the consequences. I continue to ask myself, did I do the right thing and how bad did I FCK up my wife, kids, my life.
> Last night I read a post about a man who caught his wife in an EA, and she denied it was nothing more than just flirting...that was deal breaker for him and he immediatley (emotionally) ended his marriage and will be filing for divorce. My situation is somewhat similar in how I felt back in April (except I caught my W with plans to meet her AP). What he did, and what I did were totally different...I acted as if it wasn't a deal breaker, when in my heart it was...I strayed, I was wrong, but I did what I did and cannot change it. I do not know and will not know what my wife, and myself for that matter, want to do or go from here...as I stated, I am scared to open up to her cause I think she is too pissed to listen.
> Something - I am not going to defend my AP, at the beginning she was extremely reluctant (the first couple of times being together alcohol played a part) and is still reluctant (I am reluctant today) and that is why we put the brakes on everything. I used her, and yes, she used me.




I see where you are coming from NotSo. Sometimes we waver in our decisions to stay or go after feeling betrayed. And we end up doing the same darn thing our WS did, and we become the WS out of spite. It's such a vicious cycle. It has to end somewhere though. 

I know how you feel..sometimes we just need listening ears (or eyes in this case) and clarification. Especially if we have already made a decision.

It's good that you have put the brakes on your A. Your M seems like it is in limbo at this point. I don't know if you have answered this yet or not, but, have you spoken to your W about your A yet? Or is there even a point anymore?

Why is it that she is angry at you? (I'm just going off of the assumption that you have not told your W you have had an A)...Im curious. You said in your first post, that if you leave, she would be unwilling to have an R anymore is that right?


----------



## NotSo

Something - I have not told her about my A, I know I will have to at somepoint though. She is mad because I left her, my daughter, and our dog (who can be a pain in the ass). She did tell me, the first time I told her I wanted to separate, that there would be no chance of R...that changed last week to little chance of R.
I saw her and my daughter yesterday (it was pleasant, we were in public) after they left I texted her and told her it was nice seeing her, she texted back saying, "same here". 
I am going home next Sunday, to do some work around the house and the yard, and to visit my daughter for some time together...I am tempted to ask my W to sit down and talk and discuss things -I dont know what to expect, I do know what to expect if divulge my A, I will not Trickle Truth her as she did me for 3 months...that and her recent attempt (successful attempt I dont know?) to contact her EA partner is what pushed me over the edge.


----------



## TCx

somethingelse said:


> It's always our desire for our S to turn around and open their eyes isn't it. We want them to see what they cannot see, standing right in front of them or at least see how little they contribute to making a M work.


Yes, it is, but then it's also important that we ask ourselves what we're missing. 

My W used to have a sticker on her mirror that read, _"Maybe you've been brainwashed too."_

This is my side of the story and because my W and I aren't talking, it's the only side I have. I would love to hear her side of the story.



somethingelse said:


> All I know is, it took a long time, but my heart is finally in a place where I know that if I leave, I will be ok


I am happy for you; it takes a long time getting there.



somethingelse said:


> At this point though, I am still in hopes that my H can see how serious I am, enough to stick by what he has promised now..not for my sake or our children's, but for his own.


Can I suggest that you start priming him now... plant the seed that he needs to get counseling for his behaviors. Tell him that you really want him to keep his promise but history has shown you that he will not. If he's truly keen to keep his promise, he should get help from someone that can tell him *why* he does the things he does. And that if he doesn't, you will leave comfortable in the knowledge that the D is completely his fault and that you pity him because you know that he'll destroy every relationship that he's in until he gets help.

Please note that I'm not saying that it will happen, but you've drawn a line now; there's no going back. You won't be there to help him if he does it again. I can see that you still care for him so planting the 'seeds' for him to get help if you've left him might help him after his grieving period is over.



somethingelse said:


> My hope has always been that he will just open his eyes and see how I do love him and he should love himself enough to get help.


Please forgive me, but you sound like my wife. She has her eyes closed right now too and she is probably praying that I realize that she loves me and that I'm being stupid.

I do love her. I know that I am her world. We're not talking because she's afraid to talk and I've already crossed that mental line where I am preparing myself mentally for the break; I'm protecting myself so I'm not really giving it everything anymore.

Ask yourself, are you sure that you hope he wakes up? Or have you already left and are just looking for that excuse to leave?



somethingelse said:


> I suspect he does want to change. He has said it quite a few times. But no, he is not the type of person who feels therapy would work. I don't think he would go. I agree that he is in over his head though. He does pray on his own time.


"I don't think he would..."

It makes me sad that you've never had that conversation. I don't know your situation but I think you two suffer from the same lack of intimacy that my W and I do. God, I truly hope that I'm wrong.

God won't do the work for you. He will only comfort you when you fail to do the work yourself.



somethingelse said:


> I can't force or change him, I can only give him direction and give him options to choose from. What he chooses from here on out is up to him.


Aye, it's all we can ever do.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> I am going home next Sunday, to do some work around the house and the yard, and to visit my daughter for some time together...I am tempted to ask my W to sit down and talk and discuss things -I dont know what to expect, I do know what to expect if divulge my A


She's going to go through so many different emotions which might include:

Is this my fault? Did I push him to it?
That bastard! How dare he lecture me?
How could he do this to me?
Well, that's that then
I hate him
That bastard has just lost the high ground
I need time away to think
I'm losing him, I need to act like a bunny rabbit

She'll go through some or all of those and she's going to go through them as she goes through the different stages of grief. But you may well and truly have destroyed your marriage. Or it might be the thing to kick her head into overdrive and want you more (though this seems unlikely). One thing is for sure; you are both on equal footing now and that might take some of the pressure off once she's calmed down.



NotSo said:


> I will not Trickle Truth her as she did me for 3 months...that and her recent attempt (successful attempt I dont know?) to contact her EA partner is what pushed me over the edge.


Make sure that you tell her your reasons for telling the way you are telling her. Tell her that the you learned from the trickle truth that she gave you how painful it is and that you don't want to make that same mistake with her.

And she's going to ask "why?" To hurt her? Because you were lonely? Because you were hurting? Have your answer ready. You are about to do what she did to you and how she will react depends on her.

She might feel some initial satisfaction, like "see, you're not so perfect" or she might just hit the roof and start screaming. Either way, if you stop talking, you're done. If you want to R, make sure that you keep the dialog open.

If you want to split, then keep your A to yourself.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Something - I have not told her about my A, I know I will have to at somepoint though. She is mad because I left her, my daughter, and our dog (who can be a pain in the ass). She did tell me, the first time I told her I wanted to separate, that there would be no chance of R...that changed last week to little chance of R.
> I saw her and my daughter yesterday (it was pleasant, we were in public) after they left I texted her and told her it was nice seeing her, she texted back saying, "same here".
> I am going home next Sunday, to do some work around the house and the yard, and to visit my daughter for some time together...I am tempted to ask my W to sit down and talk and discuss things -I dont know what to expect, I do know what to expect if divulge my A, I will not Trickle Truth her as she did me for 3 months...that and her recent attempt (successful attempt I dont know?) to contact her EA partner is what pushed me over the edge.



That would be a good idea if you can get your W to sit down for a talk. I find it weird that your W would have an EA, and not be willing to try and work it out with you now that you left. I myself would not feel that liberated if I was in her shoes. Do you think maybe she might suspect that you have had an A?


----------



## somethingelse

TCx said:


> Yes, it is, but then it's also important that we ask ourselves what we're missing.
> 
> Can I suggest that you start priming him now... plant the seed that he needs to get counseling for his behaviors. Tell him that you really want him to keep his promise but history has shown you that he will not. If he's truly keen to keep his promise, he should get help from someone that can tell him *why* he does the things he does. And that if he doesn't, you will leave comfortable in the knowledge that the D is completely his fault and that you pity him because you know that he'll destroy every relationship that he's in until he gets help.
> 
> Please note that I'm not saying that it will happen, but you've drawn a line now; there's no going back. You won't be there to help him if he does it again. I can see that you still care for him so planting the 'seeds' for him to get help if you've left him might help him after his grieving period is over.
> 
> 
> 
> Please forgive me, but you sound like my wife. She has her eyes closed right now too and she is probably praying that I realize that she loves me and that I'm being stupid.
> 
> I do love her. I know that I am her world. We're not talking because she's afraid to talk and I've already crossed that mental line where I am preparing myself mentally for the break; I'm protecting myself so I'm not really giving it everything anymore.
> 
> Ask yourself, are you sure that you hope he wakes up? Or have you already left and are just looking for that excuse to leave?
> 
> 
> 
> "I don't think he would..."
> 
> It makes me sad that you've never had that conversation. I don't know your situation but I think you two suffer from the same lack of intimacy that my W and I do. God, I truly hope that I'm wrong.
> 
> God won't do the work for you. He will only comfort you when you fail to do the work yourself.




I think any W that loves her H will always want the best for him. Even if he screws up again and I leave, I will always want him to be happy. I would always want him to get help any way he could. (and I will be leaving if he continues his games). I don't want to leave, but I will if he continues lying to me.

He is showing me now that he can be trusted now, I can see it (I've been so used to his games for so long that he was a totally different person than he has been now). I was worried for a while that he was still hiding things from me, but he is still stepping up to what he needs to be so far. So I'm happy with that. But he's on a slippery slope right now. I'm going to keep my eyes out for any signs of mischief. 

I also have had the conversation in the past about him seeking help for his possessive, lying, scheming attitude. He has acknowledged it before, but doesn't like to talk about it. He always says he doesn't think therapy works. He says it's a waste of time. That's why I said I don't think he would go. I always wait for the right times to bring up the subject. Just so he will listen and not shun if off right away.


----------



## NotSo

TC - Thanks for the heads up on what she may going through, after seeing her Sat. and Sun. I honestly dont know if she is sad, mad, or glad that I am gone - I guess when I talk to her I'll get an idea??
Something - I dont know if she thinks or suspects I had and A...she did say, before I moved out, the only reason for me to move out, instead of living like roomates (me downstairs and her upstairs) would be for me to see other girls. I have never, ever given her the impression I have ever strayed or was tempted to...then again, I never thought she would actually do what she did.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> TC - Thanks for the heads up on what she may going through, after seeing her Sat. and Sun. I honestly dont know if she is sad, mad, or glad that I am gone - I guess when I talk to her I'll get an idea??
> Something - I dont know if she thinks or suspects I had and A...she did say, before I moved out, the only reason for me to move out, instead of living like roomates (me downstairs and her upstairs) would be for me to see other girls. I have never, ever given her the impression I have ever strayed or was tempted to...then again, I never thought she would actually do what she did.



People are such a mystery. A lot of people never expect the worst from their S until it hits them in the face. I never expected my H to do the things he has done. I also never expected myself to do what I did. One thing I don't understand is, why does a person who's never been cheated on, have an A or A's? Unless there's just complete neglect from the H or W's side. I don't get it. I don't think I ever will. 

I myself had a similar situation to yours. Except picture it 10 times worse. Not a good way to start out marriage or a life. It's almost harder to work on the M than to just leave. It's hard to face the reality. But in the end I always ask myself "do I really see myself with another person" But then again. If H keeps doing what he's been doing, I guess I will have to. I'm just angry that it has to be this way all the time. So much drama


----------



## TCx

somethingelse said:


> One thing I don't understand is, why does a person who's never been cheated on, have an A or A's? Unless there's just complete neglect from the H or W's side. I don't get it. I don't think I ever will.


Possibilities...

ego - someone shows interest in them and it strokes their ego
loneliness - not really neglect but maybe one S isn't home often or another person shows significant interest/chases the other... unlike their S who is comfortable
horny - the sex has tapered off and they go out looking for a 'hit' just to take off the edge and get trapped in an emotional situation as part of the dance
revenge - to hurt their S for something that they did
impaired judgement - existing attraction that was acted upon through the use of alcohol to loosen their inhibitions
insecure - kind of like an ego stroke but more negative; where the ego stroke is selfish, the insecure person needs assurance that they are still attractive or desirable
sooooo many others...

I've heard that most EAs start between friends during troubled or 'blah' times during a marriage. Both people are missing something in their lives and they fill that gap with each other. Most say that they didn't even see it hit them.

I didn't. To give you an example, my OW and I were colleagues who became close friends because we spent time together. But in my head, we were just friends. Near the beginning of the time that we were traveling together, my OW said, "Ugh, I really hate it when guys fall in love with me" and that stuck with me. I was never going to fall in love with her because that's not what she wanted. We were just friends and I was okay with that. I found her attractive but we were friends, colleagues and I was "happily" married.

And yet, I can clearly remember the exact moment that I realized that I loved her. I can see it in my head, in living colour; every muscle on her face, the placement of every hair on her face, her expression, everything. I remember my heart stopping. And I remember several other moments when I had this love struck relapse... where the world just stopped.

And all I would say to myself is, "Wow, she really is beautiful... in another life maybe... we're just friends." Even after our little bubble burst, I denied it to myself... "I don't love her. She hates your guts. She wants nothing to do with you. You've hurt her. Stay away from her, you'll hurt her more." In fact, I've lied to myself so many times about her that I no longer have a firm grasp on the reality of the situation. I only know that I love her and that she's on my mind a lot of the time.

Looking back, it was the weirdest thing that I can describe... just needing to be near her and doing everything that I could to be near her and yet telling myself that I wasn't attached to her. That she was just a really good friend. I even went so far as to tell her that I didn't love her which was a complete lie... but I wasn't lying to her so much as I was lying to myself.



somethingelse said:


> It's almost harder to work on the M than to just leave. It's hard to face the reality. But in the end I always ask myself "do I really see myself with another person" But then again. If H keeps doing what he's been doing, I guess I will have to. I'm just angry that it has to be this way all the time. So much drama


I think it's much harder because you have to fight your perceptions of history. They've already let you down and so you need to forgive them before you can trust them. And yet you'll never forget the transgression.

I think that's what an A does to people... it lets you see that you can be with someone else. That you can move forward.


----------



## somethingelse

TCx said:


> Possibilities...
> 
> ego - someone shows interest in them and it strokes their ego
> loneliness - not really neglect but maybe one S isn't home often or another person shows significant interest/chases the other... unlike their S who is comfortable
> horny - the sex has tapered off and they go out looking for a 'hit' just to take off the edge and get trapped in an emotional situation as part of the dance
> revenge - to hurt their S for something that they did
> impaired judgement - existing attraction that was acted upon through the use of alcohol to loosen their inhibitions
> insecure - kind of like an ego stroke but more negative; where the ego stroke is selfish, the insecure person needs assurance that they are still attractive or desirable
> sooooo many others...
> 
> I've heard that most EAs start between friends during troubled or 'blah' times during a marriage. Both people are missing something in their lives and they fill that gap with each other. Most say that they didn't even see it hit them.
> 
> I didn't. To give you an example, my OW and I were colleagues who became close friends because we spent time together. But in my head, we were just friends. Near the beginning of the time that we were traveling together, my OW said, "Ugh, I really hate it when guys fall in love with me" and that stuck with me. I was never going to fall in love with her because that's not what she wanted. We were just friends and I was okay with that. I found her attractive but we were friends, colleagues and I was "happily" married.
> 
> And yet, I can clearly remember the exact moment that I realized that I loved her. I can see it in my head, in living colour; every muscle on her face, the placement of every hair on her face, her expression, everything. I remember my heart stopping. And I remember several other moments when I had this love struck relapse... where the world just stopped.
> 
> And all I would say to myself is, "Wow, she really is beautiful... in another life maybe... we're just friends." Even after our little bubble burst, I denied it to myself... "I don't love her. She hates your guts. She wants nothing to do with you. You've hurt her. Stay away from her, you'll hurt her more." In fact, I've lied to myself so many times about her that I no longer have a firm grasp on the reality of the situation. I only know that I love her and that she's on my mind a lot of the time.
> 
> Looking back, it was the weirdest thing that I can describe... just needing to be near her and doing everything that I could to be near her and yet telling myself that I wasn't attached to her. That she was just a really good friend. I even went so far as to tell her that I didn't love her which was a complete lie... but I wasn't lying to her so much as I was lying to myself.



My H has plenty of those traits

I hope my H has never felt like that with another woman  Actually there was one time he told me he wanted to take a break and that he had his first "maybe I don't love you" thought. Let me tell you, I was not happy. I hope he wasn't truly in love with the girl he was thinking of leaving me for. I would never be able to get over that...

What did you treat your W like when you and this woman were having the A? It must be different from just going around and meeting different women. Since you have admitted you were in love with your AP...



TCx said:


> I think it's much harder because you have to fight your perceptions of history. They've already let you down and so you need to forgive them before you can trust them. And yet you'll never forget the transgression.
> 
> I think that's what an A does to people... it lets you see that you can be with someone else. That you can move forward.



That's the kicker....forgive the transgressor not the transgression. That's a hard one. And trust is so hard to rebuild if you are not willing to allow the WS to show loyalty.


----------



## jameskimp

I would move on and get a divorce. Your wife showed contacted the AP behind your back and showed deep regret for losing him.

Expose to the OM's wife and don't stay for the kids. 15 is old enough to forgo that excuse.

Yes you cheated too but sometimes being cheated on after so long a marriage can **** with your logic and emotions like that.


----------



## TCx

somethingelse said:


> I hope my H has never felt like that with another woman  Actually there was one time he told me he wanted to take a break and that he had his first "maybe I don't love you" thought. Let me tell you, I was not happy. I hope he wasn't truly in love with the girl he was thinking of leaving me for. I would never be able to get over that...


Why not? Surely you are not naive enough to think that you are the only person in the world that your H is capable of loving? I still love my W very dearly and yet I love OW too.

That's why I struggle so much. On the one hand is my daughter, whom I want to be there for, and a life with a woman who has completely surrendered to me; someone who will likely never proactively input to the marriage... a dependent... someone that I don't really 'value' as a partner. But she's not the problem, I am. It is my expectations that she's failing to meet and I don't trust her to step up to those expectations because I know that's not who she is.

On the other hand is a woman who will tell me what she thinks (and where I can stick it), what she wants from me, etc, but is a completely unknown quantity in terms of long term compatibility... and that's even if she is even interested in me at all. I screwed things up pretty badly and it's been 10 months now. And, I've spent so much time telling myself that she hates my guts or that she was never interested in me, or that it was all in my head that I have to write her off as gone.

Which is good for me, actually, because it means that if I leave my W, it's because of me and not for OW. It's just sad that it took me so long to figure any of this out. But in truth, while OW was still a 'possibility' in my head, I could never be sure that my motives were for me and not for her. And I promised myself that I would not leave my W for another woman.

But the net-net is that I truly love them both, and I always will. The difference is that what I want in my life is a woman who will share my life with me; who needs me but doesn't need me to take care of her. It's down to a choice of what I want for myself and the type of life I want to commit to. 

By setting the boundaries with your H, you have committed to a course of action and that probably feels pretty good for you too. It is something that you both can work toward, together.



somethingelse said:


> What did you treat your W like when you and this woman were having the A? It must be different from just going around and meeting different women. Since you have admitted you were in love with your AP...


I think our situations are completely different. If your H has had a number of partners, it sounds like it's the act (not necessarily the sex) that your H is addicted to. Whether it is ego, insecurity, or whatever, I couldn't say. But it sounds like he's fulfilling a more carnal need for himself. I suspect that he's done it for so long because you've let him do it for so long. He was able to continue doing it because he never had to choose not to...

That is to say that you'd never forced him to choose to forgo fulfilling that carnal need and so he never had to commit to not doing it in his head.

If he has truly committed to not doing it anymore then it is that mental decision that is going to make him succeed for the short term. Identifying *why* he does it is, IMHO, critical to success in the long term. With that knowledge, he will be able to recognize the signs that could lead to a relapse and say to himself, "I love my wife. I have committed to her. It is not okay to do it behind her back. And if I do, she will find out anyway and I will lose her."

As for my situation, remember that I didn't think that we were having an affair. I came home, kissed my W & daughter and went on with my life. I traded texts w/OW and even showed them to my W (who I have always been open with). There was never any sexting or anything like that although we did talk about sex in generalities, but that was more feeling the lay of the land I think. We were on the way toward a PA before I collapsed and burst the bubble.

When I first descended into the fog my behavior changed a little, but it was mostly in terms of ignoring the phone, when my W called, if I was with OW (usually at dinner). Those phone conversations got shorter and some of the habits of hers that bugged me would bug me even more. My W would happily talk daily (to me, that is just so 'needy'; I can go months without talking to family and be just fine with that as I don't need to know what goes on in their live. Now that i say this though I think I recognize that she has little else in her life other than me and our daughter so it makes sense that she'd want to talk to me a lot), but I avoided talking to her.

The biggest change was that I stopped sleeping almost entirely, getting only between 1-2 hours sleep a night and that was because of the emotional turmoil that I was in... and yet I didn't even admit that it was the emotional stuff that was killing me. After that everything suffered; my moods, my ability to connect with my family, etc.


----------



## NotSo

James - Your right, her EA screwed me up, but really at no time did I think what I was doing with my AP was right, I knew it was wrong but continued almost in a justified type of way - well, if she is going to do that, then I'm going to do this. Looking back, of course it was childish and immature logic.
I do care for my AP, we have cut the physical contact even though I have moved out of the house, but I am still emotionally carrying on with her.
I am not sure about my wife's and my future - in her words today in a text - "it doesn't look good" due to me moving out and the financial strain it has brought on for both of us. Again, it's a mystery whether she is sad, mad, or glad I'm gone.


----------



## somethingelse

TCx just so we don't continue threadjacking NotSo's thread, if you would like you can read my thread. Basically where me and my H are at this point.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> James - Your right, her EA screwed me up, but really at no time did I think what I was doing with my AP was right, I knew it was wrong but continued almost in a justified type of way - well, if she is going to do that, then I'm going to do this. Looking back, of course it was childish and immature logic.


Owning up to that is a good start.



NotSo said:


> I do care for my AP, we have cut the physical contact even though I have moved out of the house, but I am still emotionally carrying on with her.


Then your marriage is over. It's okay if you're not ready to admit that yet, but it is. Until you decide that you want to be with your W you will move further and further apart from her and that will only end in D.



NotSo said:


> I am not sure about my wife's and my future - in her words today in a text - "it doesn't look good" due to me moving out and the financial strain it has brought on for both of us. Again, it's a mystery whether she is sad, mad, or glad I'm gone.


Why should it matter what she thinks? The two of you are obviously not talking openly with each other and I suspect that you two never really have.

You're dancing around issues because you're afraid to talk, afraid of being hurt, afraid of making a mistake, afraid of accelerating toward a D, or toward R. Neither of you knows what you want so you're looking to the other to try to make the decision.

This is how I see you.

Just Say It

Your W is telling you something though. "It doesn't look good" means, to me, that she's preparing you for the worst without actually telling you that it's almost over.

Her reasons could be anything. She could be ashamed of what she did, she might be in love with her AP, she might feel the distance growing between you two and is preparing herself for the worst too.

The question, though, is what do you want? It's not what she wants. You can only take care of your needs in this situation and if your needs and her needs meet half way then you have a chance. 

If you want to stay with her and you tell her that and you get rejected then so be it. Rejection sucks and it hurts like hell. But at least you will have tried to build that bridge. If you don't want to R then start doing what you need to do to exit.

But not acting out of fear is a death sentence for your marriage. It's choosing D by default. Of course, maybe that's what you want.


----------



## NotSo

TCx - thank you...in all honesty, I am sad, I miss my daughter incredibly...I do not miss how I felt living separate lives from my wife, but I also miss my living room, my dog etc...
Living in my house the last 3 months, I felt like I was being lied to whole time because bits of info about her EA continued to trickle..EX: one of her text to him said "sorry, this is a drunk text, i wish I was closer so could come over and F--- you" that text was written in early April, I found it April 28th, she told me the details about that text (where she was - she was actually out with me when she wrote it) in mid-June...Sh1t like that. By this August I was done with it all and just couldn't see myself working on our marriage. 
I said earlier that finding her attempted contact with her AP 2 weeks ago, pushed me over the edge...truthfully, she would not consider going to MC until I actually put a deposit down on my new apartment. I asked to her to commit an actual day and time for counseling and she said she didnt like that I was giving her ultimatums on MCing and she will have "to see" if she can make time for it. To me, that said she is not willing to work for our marriage.
I will talk to her Sunday, after all, we have spent 21 1/2 years together and I do love her (she gave me and raised 2 of the greatest kids on this earth), just not sure if love is enough anymore for either of us. I think Something said that it is easier to get out of this relationship than to work on it, she's right...if we try to R, it's going to be a ***** dealing with her EA and me exposing my PA, but I am willing to try, not now, maybe in a couple months, and I will tell her that.
TCx - Do you really think she could be in love with this guy who she hasn't seen in 22-23 years or are you saying she could be in love with the memory of that time in her life with him? I loved a girl 23 years ago, thought about spending the rest of my life with her and I have thought of her maybe 2 times in the 20 years I have been married.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo...

I'm sorry you are in this predicament. Coming from the outside, all I can say is, time is the healer. If I was you, and I was living in that apartment all alone. I would be missing my children and my house too (and my S). 

I hope for your sake that your W will see the pain she has caused you, and start working on herself. I hope that she will see how stubborn she is being. Remorse is not setting in on her just yet. But someday it will. If not, then you should not worry about her and let her have this life she wants with her AP. It will be an empty one.

You both need to work on yourselves before you can see eye to eye with each other. Without that, you will both be fighting each other off and pointing fingers (especially now that you've had an A). An eye for and eye leaves everyone blind.

My advice is, to start living your life now for the better, and let time be the healer. You cannot change your W. If she is unwilling to budge, then that is her problem and she needs to own that. 

You need to know that unless you are willing to D, you should not speak to your AP anymore. Because if that day comes where you and your W reconcile, and the whole truth must come out, you will have to tell her that you continued to talk to your AP while living on your own. And it would just fuel the fire (despite what your W might be doing this whole time) 

And if you are willing to D, then disregard.

You have to start owning your own faults and forget about hers. It's your life now, what are you going to do to make it good for yourself?


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> TCx - Do you really think she could be in love with this guy who she hasn't seen in 22-23 years or are you saying she could be in love with the memory of that time in her life with him?


I offered that as a possibility, not as what I thought was actually going through her head. But the thing about not being around someone and then reconnecting with them is that you get to relive all of that good stuff without having to live with them to see the bad. It could be the other things too.

Either way, you are a source of pain to your W right now.

Can I point out something though? Out of my entire post, you picked up one thing and you asked me, basically, "do you think she loves him [and not me]?"

Despite your anger, you still love her. I agree with SE; time is a healer. Neither of you know what you want yet. You're both being pulled in different directions and you're obviously not talking things through.

What you two are doing isn't working. So make a change and see if that works.


----------



## somethingelse

TCx said:


> I offered that as a possibility, not as what I thought was actually going through her head. But the thing about not being around someone and then reconnecting with them is that you get to relive all of that good stuff without having to live with them to see the bad. It could be the other things too.
> 
> Either way, you are a source of pain to your W right now.
> 
> Can I point out something though? Out of my entire post, you picked up one thing and you asked me, basically, "do you think she loves him [and not me]?"
> 
> Despite your anger, you still love her. I agree with SE; time is a healer. Neither of you know what you want yet. You're both being pulled in different directions and you're obviously not talking things through.
> 
> What you two are doing isn't working. So make a change and see if that works.



:iagree:


----------



## NotSo

Something - To answer your question, what am I going to do to make my life good? I am going to make my kids life the best that it can be being in this situation (be available); I am going to bury myself in my work (I love my job by the way - very fortunate); get physically into better shape (not horrible, just could stand to lose some more lbs); do things to not make me feel so lonely (stay at the office longer hours??) I work 65-80 hours (this past week I worked 84 hours - it will be 8 more today) some of these hours are out of necessity, but a lot is choice as well.
I am a people person, outgoing, love to go out and have fun, extreme extrovert (wife is introverted - uncomfortable in social situations - I am completely opposite) So I do have the ability to stay busy, but I am not a position to meet a lot of new people.
TCx - I admit it, I do love her...she has hurt me so deeply and what hurts more is there is very little remorse, admission, contrition, etc...therefore it hurts more. I do not know if I can live with her after all this?? Yes, we both are sources of pain for each other, and maybe after time and IC (for me, cause she isn't having any part of it) I can heal...but for her, I dont know??
I know what we are doing now is not working, the first thing we have to do to "change things up", is to begin communicating, which she is reluctant after two request this past week. I just need some sense of direction from her point of view - yes TC, her text statement "our future doesn't look good" was a message, she is preparing and I have overtly prepared (by moving out).
Thank you both for your insights and opinions - I truly appreciate!


----------



## TCx

TCx said:


> Either way, you are a source of pain to your W right now.


I want to clarify this because it's a bit ambiguous and ambiguity is dangerous.

You are a source of pain to your W right now for two reasons:

1. Your anger at her for her A

You have focused your anger at her and I'm comfortable in saying, based on what you've said on TAM, that you have been hard on her and probably a bit critical. Anonymity always allows us to vent more than we would face-to-face but the anger that you have and you focusing on her A here would translate into every dealing that you have with her. She feels that anger and wants to run away from it... right into the arms of her AP. Whether she loves him or not, it's you that's pushing her away with your anger and your lack of commitment to her.

2. Her guilt over the A

I'm sorry to disagree with TAM conventional wisdom on this one but unless she's a sociopath, she is feeling guilt. It hasn't registered as that with her yet but it's there... eating at her. The fact that she's not interested in dealing with it says more about how she's handling it than anything; she's in denial and while that denial is there she won't progress. After my A, I went through a period where I said to myself, "I am a sack of ****. She deserves better than me; she's better off without me!" (and TAM made no bone about shoving that down my throat too, which sent me off spinning for months and I actually believed it and started pushing her away as a result). I'm not saying that's what's going on in her head; just that it's a possibility.

IMHO, women tend to let their emotions drive their logic rather than the other way around (not saying men are much different btw). If there is hurt there, they will think less about the reasons behind the hurt and more about what they should do about the hurt. 

And it's human nature to run away from hurt.

So consider this. Her AP does not cause her hurt, you do. Every time she looks you in the face, there is a small part of her brain that knows that she cheated on you. And every time she looks you in the face, she tries to deny that to herself. It could be I suspect that's why she wants to just forget about it (and not deal with it).

Or.... 

1. It could be that she doesn't want to be with you anymore (though again, I always look motivations behind 'desires' and 'wants' so I would ask why she might not want to be with you anymore).

Either way, I don't know.

As SE said, time really is a healer. She'll own up to it one day; I guess that the question is, will it be before or after the two of you have found someone else?

PS - This message isn't just about your W. It is for both of you. Decide what it is that you want. Do what you need to get what you want. You can only do what is right for you. She can only do the same. In the end, the only way that you can be together is if 'what is right' for each of you is 'what is right' for both of you.

But you shouldn't run away from someone because you think that they would be better off without you. That is not a choice that you should presume to make; that's running away from yourself.

Also... you said...



> one of her text to him said "sorry, this is a drunk text, i wish I was closer so could come over and F--- you" that text was written in early April, I found it April 28th, she told me the details about that text (where she was - she was actually out with me when she wrote it) in mid-June...Sh1t like that


That doesn't sound like words of love to me. It sounds like she had a need to fill. What needs aren't you fulfilling? Ask her. She probably won't be honest if you do btw; she won't want to tell you because she'll be afraid to hurt you and so she'll probably lie or tell a half truth. You can either take that as a good type of dishonesty or you can take that as a bad type of dishonesty. It's up to you.

Again, please don't mistake this message as me offering advice as to whether you should R or D. I'm just trying to offer what I see as insight into some things that she (and you) might be going on your your heads. Some of it will be right, some will be wrong.

But you're never going to find out which parts are right or wrong unless you talk to her, calmly, openly, honestly and without attacking her. Don't be a pushover but also don't attack her. Again, MC might help because it is neutral ground.

But I can tell you from very recent experience, when even one of you stops talking, there is only one outcome.


----------



## TCx

Heh, you replied while I was typing. Sorry for the essay. I can never seem to be brief.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Something - To answer your question, what am I going to do to make my life good? I am going to make my kids life the best that it can be being in this situation (be available); I am going to bury myself in my work (I love my job by the way - very fortunate); get physically into better shape (not horrible, just could stand to lose some more lbs); do things to not make me feel so lonely (stay at the office longer hours??) I work 65-80 hours (this past week I worked 84 hours - it will be 8 more today) some of these hours are out of necessity, but a lot is choice as well.
> I am a people person, outgoing, love to go out and have fun, extreme extrovert (wife is introverted - uncomfortable in social situations - I am completely opposite) So I do have the ability to stay busy, but I am not a position to meet a lot of new people.
> TCx - I admit it, I do love her...she has hurt me so deeply and what hurts more is there is very little remorse, admission, contrition, etc...therefore it hurts more. I do not know if I can live with her after all this?? Yes, we both are sources of pain for each other, and maybe after time and IC (for me, cause she isn't having any part of it) I can heal...but for her, I dont know??
> I know what we are doing now is not working, the first thing we have to do to "change things up", is to begin communicating, which she is reluctant after two request this past week. I just need some sense of direction from her point of view - yes TC, her text statement "our future doesn't look good" was a message, she is preparing and I have overtly prepared (by moving out).
> Thank you both for your insights and opinions - I truly appreciate!


Live your life the way you would if you were single. Except the looking for women part. You don't necessarily have to be a work horse. Go do things that you have never gotten to do before, that you would like to do. What kinds of activities do you like? Also, do you have any friends that you can talk to? Family that you live near? 

You said that your upset that your W has little remorse, and admission. I'm guessing that might be because she is not ready to stop the charade. But I was going to ask.. what do you think she will feel if she knew that you had your A? Would she be as upset as you are about her EA? (just curious)

TCx's last post was some good insight into what your W might be feeling right now. I think she must be going through pain right now too, and because of that, she wants to fill the void (with who knows what). But guilt does eat away at people over time.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> I am going to bury myself in my work (I love my job by the way - very fortunate), get physically into better shape (not horrible, just could stand to lose some more lbs); do things to not make me feel so lonely


I made these mistakes too. To a degree, I'm still doing it. I also climbed into a bottle, took up smoking and started frequenting strip clubs where I could toss $100 at some 20yo girl to wag her naked ass in my face and yet be too drunk to notice.

None of it helps.

It may be different for you, but it took me the longest time to realize that I wasn't trying to escape from the hurt or the situation. I was trying to escape from myself. 

If you decide that you want to R, please don't make the same mistake. Those months that I spent self-destructing cost us both dearly in terms of missed opportunities to fix things. It also prolonged the healing process. Instead of just crying my eyes out when I got back to my hotel I went out out and buried myself in whatever I could.



NotSo said:


> I work 65-80 hours (this past week I worked 84 hours - it will be 8 more today) some of these hours are out of necessity,


Well, there is one gap in your relationship. You are never home. Did she used to say that she didn't mind? If she did, she lied. She's been lonely.



NotSo said:


> but a lot is choice as well.


I made the same mistake... 



NotSo said:


> I am a people person, outgoing, love to go out and have fun, extreme extrovert (wife is introverted - uncomfortable in social situations - I am completely opposite) So I do have the ability to stay busy, but I am not a position to meet a lot of new people.


Omg, looking at you is like looking in the mirror. Are you preparing yourself for 'being alone' if you D?



NotSo said:


> TCx - I admit it, I do love her...she has hurt me so deeply and what hurts more is there is very little remorse, admission, contrition, etc...therefore it hurts more.


I have seen your admission, but where is your remorse? Deal with you own demons. Yes, she hurt you, yes she lied to you. No, you don't feel like you can trust her.

Fix yourself because if/when you split, you are just as likely to repeat the same mistakes that you did before but with a new version of her.



NotSo said:


> I do not know if I can live with her after all this??


What is 'all of this'? Her actions? Your actions? Your fear of owning up to your A to her (or to your family/friends)?

Be honest. If your first response was, "hers" then you are still in WS fog, denial and projection. If your first response was 'all of them' then good on you.

Btw, I am not enjoying holding your feet to the fire here. If you're anything like me, you're very likely already in agony and constantly at war with yourself. I'm just trying to keep some things on your mind when you push them out.

Good luck mate.


----------



## somethingelse

TCx said:


> I made these mistakes too. To a degree, I'm still doing it. I also climbed into a bottle, took up smoking and started frequenting strip clubs where I could toss $100 at some 20yo girl to wag her naked ass in my face and yet be too drunk to notice.
> 
> None of it helps.
> 
> It may be different for you, but it took me the longest time to realize that I wasn't trying to escape from the hurt or the situation. I was trying to escape from myself.
> 
> If you decide that you want to R, please don't make the same mistake. Those months that I spent self-destructing cost us both dearly in terms of missed opportunities to fix things. It also prolonged the healing process. Instead of just crying my eyes out when I got back to my hotel I went out out and buried myself in whatever I could.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, there is one gap in your relationship. You are never home. Did she used to say that she didn't mind? If she did, she lied. She's been lonely.
> 
> 
> 
> I made the same mistake...
> 
> 
> 
> Omg, looking at you is like looking in the mirror. Are you preparing yourself for 'being alone' if you D?
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen your admission, but where is your remorse? Deal with you own demons. Yes, she hurt you, yes she lied to you. No, you don't feel like you can trust her.
> 
> Fix yourself because if/when you split, you are just as likely to repeat the same mistakes that you did before but with a new version of her.
> 
> 
> 
> What is 'all of this'? Her actions? Your actions? Your fear of owning up to your A to her (or to your family/friends)?
> 
> Be honest. If your first response was, "hers" then you are still in WS fog, denial and projection. If your first response was 'all of them' then good on you.
> 
> Btw, I am not enjoying holding your feet to the fire here. If you're anything like me, you're very likely already in agony and constantly at war with yourself. I'm just trying to keep some things on your mind when you push them out.
> 
> Good luck mate.




:iagree:

TCx is very in-tune. Take his word for it


----------



## NotSo

Something - My wife will be hurt if she knew about my A, but, in her words "I would understand, because I am not what you want me to be" (she is referencing sexually). I am talking to a one friend about this, we do not have any family within 500 miles.

TCx - The 65-80 hours is just for several months, then back to 40-45 hours a week, I was talking about being busy now. she knew about these hours before we were married and for for 20 years never complained. About my A and any remorse - I do not feel good about what I have done, but I have not beaten myself up about it either...Am I sorry, yes...do I regret it, yes...I am not happy about my actions throughout this from the absolute beginning...how I acted when I found out, to today when I go back to my empty apartment, with that even being said, I do not know if I had acted or reacted differently, I still may be going to an empty apartment tonight. What I meant by saying "after all this", I am refering to her and myself, her anger at me for moving out and my anger at her for starting this EA...

She had told me about every boyfriend she had ever dated and cared for...except this one, the night I found her text, was the first time I ever saw or heard this guys name...the letter she wrote him (3 days after I said there cant be any contact ever again with him) was so much like a love letter, I read it and told her, "wow, i cant compete with the memories you have of this guy" (which I didnt know about the letter until I read her text to a friend saying he got the letter and wants nothing to do with me - she did not tell me about it). That day was May 3, she didnt tell me anything else about him (not even his last name) till I found out when she looked him up on our IPAD August 6th.

TCx - I appreciate you "holding my feet to the fire" someone has to, I am in agony, I am scared, I am sad, and I am pissed. I do not want to be alone for the rest of my life, I need people, I need people who I care about and care about me...I am more afraid that if we do end up in D, I will never be able to trust another completely...And I also know, that if I ever start back with my wife or someone else, that I have the potential to be the WS, something I didnt think I was capable of prior to this life changing event.

I feel financially screwed here also, I was paid last week and she sent me a text saying I needed to deposit 100% of my check into our joint account so we can stay current on our families bills. I said, I have to be able to pay for my rent, utilities, groceries..she said ask you mom for a loan. So I deposited my check in our joint account, have not asked my mom for $. I did it because I am the one who moved out knowing I have a responsibility for the mortgage, 2 cars, 3 insurance policies, etc...but what is not my responsibility is the thousands of dollars charged on our credit cards for her clothes, purses, makeup, etc...I am wondering if I should say, this is what I am depositing into the joint account to pay for items 1,2,3, etc and keep the majority of my pay? She has gone off the deep end when it comes to spending $...but I feel guilty, cause I am the one who left.


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Something - My wife will be hurt if she knew about my A, but, in her words "I would understand, because I am not what you want me to be" (she is referencing sexually). I am talking to a one friend about this, we do not have any family within 500 miles.
> 
> TCx - The 65-80 hours is just for several months, then back to 40-45 hours a week, I was talking about being busy now. she knew about these hours before we were married and for for 20 years never complained. About my A and any remorse - I do not feel good about what I have done, but I have not beaten myself up about it either...Am I sorry, yes...do I regret it, yes...I am not happy about my actions throughout this from the absolute beginning...how I acted when I found out, to today when I go back to my empty apartment, with that even being said, I do not know if I had acted or reacted differently, I still may be going to an empty apartment tonight. What I meant by saying "after all this", I am refering to her and myself, her anger at me for moving out and my anger at her for starting this EA...
> 
> She had told me about every boyfriend she had ever dated and cared for...except this one, the night I found her text, was the first time I ever saw or heard this guys name...the letter she wrote him (3 days after I said there cant be any contact ever again with him) was so much like a love letter, I read it and told her, "wow, i cant compete with the memories you have of this guy" (which I didnt know about the letter until I read her text to a friend saying he got the letter and wants nothing to do with me - she did not tell me about it). That day was May 3, she didnt tell me anything else about him (not even his last name) till I found out when she looked him up on our IPAD August 6th.
> 
> TCx - I appreciate you "holding my feet to the fire" someone has to, I am in agony, I am scared, I am sad, and I am pissed. I do not want to be alone for the rest of my life, I need people, I need people who I care about and care about me...I am more afraid that if we do end up in D, I will never be able to trust another completely...And I also know, that if I ever start back with my wife or someone else, that I have the potential to be the WS, something I didnt think I was capable of prior to this life changing event.
> 
> I feel financially screwed here also, I was paid last week and she sent me a text saying I needed to deposit 100% of my check into our joint account so we can stay current on our families bills. I said, I have to be able to pay for my rent, utilities, groceries..she said ask you mom for a loan. So I deposited my check in our joint account, have not asked my mom for $. I did it because I am the one who moved out knowing I have a responsibility for the mortgage, 2 cars, 3 insurance policies, etc...but what is not my responsibility is the thousands of dollars charged on our credit cards for her clothes, purses, makeup, etc...I am wondering if I should say, this is what I am depositing into the joint account to pay for items 1,2,3, etc and keep the majority of my pay? She has gone off the deep end when it comes to spending $...but I feel guilty, cause I am the one who left.


I have read other threads where others have advised the BS to secure a separate bank account so you do not fund your WS's possible A. 

Ask to see all the bills that she claims she needs to pay, and say that YOU will pay them. If you are the one paying for everything, then control what you are paying for. She might just be using this money to buy junk and funding a possible A...you need to know where it's going, which means you must take control of that on your own. 

If you say she has racked up money on your credit cards, then cut off access to the ones that are yours. and if she has credit cards with debt on them, then let her pay them herself (if she has in fact used most of it to buy junk)

Does your W work at all? 

She doesn't seem to want you back in her life just yet, or in the house...so why does she feel that you need to hand over 100% of your wages? That's ridiculous....and she said to loan money off of your mom to pay for your own life? She is being the dictator so far. You need stop living off of your guilt and start taking control of your life. Don't let her play off of your guilt for leaving. You are both wrong right now (not that she knows). She wrote a bunch of love letters to a former boyfriend (more had to have gone on than this) you have made offers to go back...she declined. 

So do not give into the games is playing. She's dragging you through the mud already. and what's funny is she doesn't even know what you have done yet...

Despite the guilt you have about your leaving and your A, in order for you to be able to survive this, you must start taking initiative for yourself. You have to see that you are not just a rotten person who deserves nothing. You are still a person, and you have feelings like everyone else. We all make mistakes and sometimes let our emotions get the best of us. You need to start making changes to your own life for the better and get your head out of the dirt. 

Do you have a lawyer yet? I would say to get one, and tell him the situation and ask your options if you and your W do decide to D. You need to know what will happen, and prepare your heart for the pain that comes with divorce.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> in her words "I would understand, because I am not what you want me to be" (she is referencing sexually)


What do you want her to be? Just more available or something else?



NotSo said:


> TCx - The 65-80 hours is just for several months, then back to 40-45 hours a week, I was talking about being busy now.


Okay, I take that back.



NotSo said:


> she knew about these hours before we were married and for for 20 years never complained.


Well, my W would never complain if she was unhappy about something. So in my case, this wouldn't seem out of sorts.



NotSo said:


> What I meant by saying "after all this", I am refering to her and myself, her anger at me for moving out and my anger at her for starting this EA...


Okay. It sounds like she's blame shifting to you; looking for excuses to be mad at you.



NotSo said:


> I do not want to be alone for the rest of my life,


You wouldn't be.



NotSo said:


> I am more afraid that if we do end up in D, I will never be able to trust another completely...





NotSo said:


> And I also know, that if I ever start back with my wife or someone else, that I have the potential to be the WS, something I didnt think I was capable of prior to this life changing event.


That's the guilt talking and that will heal. I too never thought I could have an A and having one deconstructed my entire image of myself.

In the end, you just have to choose. Work on your problems, leave your spouse, cheat.



NotSo said:


> I feel financially screwed here also, I was paid last week and she sent me a text saying I needed to deposit 100% of my check into our joint account so we can stay current on our families bills...
> ...
> So I deposited my check in our joint account, have not asked my mom for $. I did it because I am the one who moved out knowing I have a responsibility for the mortgage, 2 cars, 3 insurance policies, etc


Good man... kind of. You are right because you have moved out doesn't mean that you are not *both* responsible for your contractual obligations. It was your choice to move out so you need to figure out how to make your financial situation better.

However, giving her all of your money isn't right. If you make all of the money then you both need to make sure the bills get paid but the both of you also need to put each other on a [realistic] budget.

Yet one more thing that you need to talk about... that you aren't.



NotSo said:


> I said, I have to be able to pay for my rent, utilities, groceries..she said ask you mom for a loan.


Except she doesn't see it that way because you moved out when she didn't want you to. She's seeing this as you making your own bed. She's had no say in this and she's seeing it as your fault. This could get very ugly for you.



NotSo said:


> ...but what is not my responsibility is the thousands of dollars charged on our credit cards for her clothes, purses, makeup, etc...I am wondering if I should say, this is what I am depositing into the joint account to pay for items 1,2,3, etc and keep the majority of my pay? She has gone off the deep end when it comes to spending $...but I feel guilty, cause I am the one who left.


Agree with SE. You need to protect yourself because if it does get ugly then you need to be able to minimize the damage that she can do.


Get a lawyer for advice; some companies give free legal advice for their employees
Open 2 new accounts, one for your money, one for mortgage and other bills; then change the bank details on all of the stuff. Do this on monday but don't tell her.
Reduce the limit on your credit cards now.
talk to her about a budget

And yes, you need to say something. But, unfortunately, she is just going to take it as more criticism for you so you need to protect yourself from the consequences of that anger.


----------



## NotSo

Something - Thanks for the advice - I knew something wasn't right with this fianancial situation...and yes my wife works and makes more money than I do. Hopefully, she will agree to talk to me tomorrow, she has turned me down twice so far this week to talk. I have opened up my own checking account with some money I have, but I cant live on just that, I need to put some money in my account - I make way too much money to have to live like I am now.

I have not contacted a lawyer, didn't think I needed to just yet??

She has not done anything physical with this guy (pretty sure with no one else either) from all the text back and forth to each other was just talk about meeting up together for the first time in 23 years on May 1st after he had his meeting here in our city.

Thanks Something


----------



## NotSo

TCx - Again, you were typing as I was. When she says "what you want me to be" she means sexually available...I stated earlier, in the last 3 years we had sex maybe 5 or 6 times...she just kept saying she doesn't feel sexual anymore??????? her excuses: weight gain, too tired, not enough energy, her job she hates, etc...
Again, hopefully she will agree to talk tomorrow?


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Something - Thanks for the advice - I knew something wasn't right with this fianancial situation...and yes my wife works and makes more money than I do. Hopefully, she will agree to talk to me tomorrow, she has turned me down twice so far this week to talk. I have opened up my own checking account with some money I have, but I cant live on just that, I need to put some money in my account - I make way too much money to have to live like I am now.
> 
> I have not contacted a lawyer, didn't think I needed to just yet??
> 
> She has not done anything physical with this guy (pretty sure with no one else either) from all the text back and forth to each other was just talk about meeting up together for the first time in 23 years on May 1st after he had his meeting here in our city.
> 
> Thanks Something


You should contact a lawyer and see what your options are...even just for a consultation. I say this because your W seems very distant from you, and is now demanding 100% of your wage to support herself. 

For all you know, your W has already contacted a lawyer (you never know). So you have to be on guard to protect yourself.

I asked you this already, but, does she work? Why is it she cannot carry her own weight?


----------



## NotSo

Something - I answered you in the second line of what you copied and pasted in your post above...yes, my wife works. She can carry her own weight, but our bills are too great for just one of our salaries...that is why I am willing to put money into our joint account to keep our payments current...and thats where I am stuck, she is depositing 100% of her pay in the joint account, shouldn't I?? I am the one who moved out, and I now have my own bills, so I guess I should figure it out?


----------



## TCx

You are separated so you both need to start looking at your joint obligations. time to deflate your spending habits (both of you); you are both responsible for the current state of the marriage so you both have to make sacrifices.

It's not just all on you.


----------



## TCx

NotSo said:


> When she says "what you want me to be" she means sexually available...I stated earlier, in the last 3 years we had sex maybe 5 or 6 times...she just kept saying she doesn't feel sexual anymore??????? her excuses: weight gain, too tired, not enough energy, her job she hates, etc...
> Again, hopefully she will agree to talk tomorrow?


Weight gain is often a big one for women; specifically body image. The problem is that it's a vicious cycle. Women get bigger and get more unhappy about it and they stop taking care of themselves so they get bigger, and the spiral continues.

Being tired/not enough energy is another one and unfortunately that kind of thing pervades every aspect of a woman's life. Is she too busy to take care of herself? Do you help around the house/with the kids? Or is she just lazy?


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Something - I answered you in the second line of what you copied and pasted in your post above...yes, my wife works. She can carry her own weight, but our bills are too great for just one of our salaries...that is why I am willing to put money into our joint account to keep our payments current...and thats where I am stuck, she is depositing 100% of her pay in the joint account, shouldn't I?? I am the one who moved out, and I now have my own bills, so I guess I should figure it out?


Oh, sorry NotSo..I misread your post 

I get that you moved out...but it was because she was cheating as far as she knows

She is putting 100% of her money into your joint account (which all goes towards the homestead) and then on top of the wants you to put 100% of your wages into it also. But she has no regard for the fact that you need to live too. 

You could go back to your home and refuse to leave. Then you would not have all of these worries.

But if that is not possible, then you have to move to step two. Which is to accept your fate, and cut off accounts. You are no longer together. Give her ONLY what she needs to live in your home. That means, see evidence of where that money is going. 

Use the rest of the money to support yourself. Do not feel guilty in doing this. You cannot live off of loans and be going into more debt.


----------



## NotSo

TCx - Yeah, tired from her sh1tty job, weight gain (funny, several weeks before his planned trip to our city and meeting my wife, she was up at 5am running)...do I help around the house? Yes sir, outside is all mine, yard, shrubs, flower beds...the entire downstairs is my cleaning responsibility, guest bedroom - which is where I lived the last 3 months, bathroom, tv room (3 levels in our home) - and we split the kitchen/dishes between us 4.

She is not lazy, just doesn't finish, she'll start something and stop...bugs me to death...EX: if I start mowing, I finish whether it starts raining or gets dark.

Her mother surprised her this weekend by flying in to visit, so we didnt have the opportunity to talk, I'll wait till next weekend. BUT, I did have a great day with my daughter - out to breakfast, shopping, we worked out in the yard together...I miss my baby girl (she's 15, but still my baby girl, always will be) so much, didn't want to leave her.


----------



## NotSo

Something - I told her that I would pay the mortgage and both car payments if she could handle the rest, she got mad and said keep your Fing money...I said no, this place is my responsibility also...if I were to pay for the cars and mortgage, I would still have money for me to live...


----------



## barbiegirl

Couleur said:


> Let me get this straight --
> 
> You haven't told your wife *you* are having an affair, but you want to out her own affair to the OM's wife?
> 
> I can understand exposing the affair if you thought it would help save your marriage but this seems like revenge. Be the man your kids think you are.




:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## somethingelse

NotSo said:


> Something - I told her that I would pay the mortgage and both car payments if she could handle the rest, she got mad and said keep your Fing money...I said no, this place is my responsibility also...if I were to pay for the cars and mortgage, I would still have money for me to live...


She says "keep your fing money" say to her "I will, thank you, after all I need to survive"

Don't let her play manipulative games with you. This is why I say get a lawyer ready just in case she does a 180 on you. She already sounds like she's playing with your life (and money)

She makes more than you and she can't even just pay the bills and groceries? That's odd.


----------



## barbiegirl

WTH..
Your Divorcing your wife(which needs to obviously be done) 
for cheating on you! But yet you are doing the same thing that she is!! That hypocritically! The ONLY differnce here is that the man that shes with has a wife! But that isent up to you to be getting into there buisness anymore! You two are seperated now! And you are seeing someone else! SO WHY are you so pressed about what she is doing! Your NOT the victim here ANYMORE!! you ARE NOW just as guilty as she is! So just move out and move on with your life! You have Someone new and she does too leave it AT THAT!
Dont make it into a big ol drama scene..if her and the other man are wanting to honestly be together than the wife will find out eventually on her own! Its not YOUR place to go and tell her! When you out doing the samething! Thats just my opinion!


----------



## NotSo

Barbie - I didn't do it, wanted to - "revenge factor" - I was venting in that post. A lot of things I wanted to do but didn't, things I should have done and didn't and things that I should have not done, but did.
I screwed up in handling this situation in so many ways - but I am trying to do better every day


----------



## NotSo

Something - I think she is doing some parts of the 180 - and she doesn't even know what the 180 is.

Barbie - I am guilty - I am a hypocrite - we are both victims of deceipt and betrayal - I am wanting to talk to her, but she is refusing at the moment. I'll wait, for how long, I don't know


----------



## TCx

barbiegirl said:


> which needs to obviously be done


It does? Isn't that you applying your value set to his situation? How about we let him make that decision?


----------



## barbiegirl

NotSo said:


> Something - I think she is doing some parts of the 180 - and she doesn't even know what the 180 is.
> 
> Barbie - I am guilty - I am a hypocrite - we are both victims of deceipt and betrayal - I am wanting to talk to her, but she is refusing at the moment. I'll wait, for how long, I don't know


I am no BETTER than you!!
Husband has cheated on me! then got revenge cheated on him
then he again cheated on me!!
i am no better than you!
i re read my message i send sounds preety *****y
And like im pointing my finger at you 
when i DONT EVEN KNOW the whole situation of your marriage life!!..so please excuse that message! Wasent meaning to sound so rude! My Apologies for sounding that way


----------



## barbiegirl

TCx said:


> It does? Isn't that you applying your value set to his situation? How about we let him make that decision?


YES!! Indeed it is!! 
My Apologizes besides who am i to do that
when im with a husband that cheated on me
then i cheated on him then he cheated on me again!!!

So your right message was *****y!
my Apologize!


----------



## NotSo

Barbie - no apology needed...we all have our own opinions and values, as a poster on TAM of my current situation, I think we are looking for support, even if we are the WS...When all this started back in late April, I thought, holy sh1t, I am the only one who is going through this...boy, was I wrong. I am happy I found this place to air and to hear others opinions...I have learned.

Update - no news, wife will not talk about anything to me other than the kids. She will not talk to my daughter about the situation, just tells her. "everything will be fine". Last night on the phone, my daughter broke down crying, saying "mom is so different, I know she is upset, but she is not seeing how upset I am." This broke my heart, I am my daughters rock, and I am not there for her, and she feels alone. I will talk to my wife on Sunday, whether she likes it or not...I will only tell her what is happening financially and how she is hurting my daughter. I contacted a lawyer this week (a friend from home - who was an usher at our wedding) and asked his opinion on what steps legally I need to take to for separation rights and eventually D.
I have been so busy, I have not started IC...I know I said I would, and I will...I really need someone in my life to prod me on to take care of myself - other than the hundred of people I am responsible 24 hours a day.


----------

