# Got what I asked for



## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

This is my first post besides my introduction. I have so much on my mind and so much I want to say so I will hopefully stay on topic and not have it scrambled. I don’t have much support out in the real world for what’s going on and just from briefly browsing this forum it seems like some wonderful people are here to offer great advice and an ear to listen.

So the backstory, my wife and I had been together almost 10yrs and married almost 2 of those yrs. Before dating we started as friends. We hung out daily and she literally became my best friend. I had just gotten out of a long term relationship that I had a son in and she had just gotten out of a relationship that she had a daughter in. I wasn’t looking for a relationship but the more we hung out the more I just started to fall in love with her and her the same. One night we finally just went at it and had the most passionate sex. From their we were both so in love. She stuck with me through some of the worst times of my life and rode it out with me right by my side when most women would have left. Her daughters father was a dead beat so I was and still am to this day the father to her daughter. About 3yrs into our relationship we had a daughter of our own. We were very busy with work and kids so we didn’t get to have all that alone time we used to have. We also were both stressed and tired and would argue and fuss just like every other couple. Another year later we were really arguing but still like best friends, we are both really stubborn and don’t know when to say sorry. We had a pretty bad argument one night and she said she wanted to take a break. I was devastated. A few weeks later she had met another guy. They started dating and I was completely crushed. I mean just absolutely miserable. It still hurts to think about today. They lasted a few months and broke up and we ended up back together. From this point it was never really the same. I considered it cheating which obviously she started talking to him when we were having problems and thought the grass was greener. It really killed my trust with her. She realized it changed me and begged to let her prove herself to be perfect and show me I was the one she wanted to be with and that it was a mistake. And she was perfect. She never went out, never gave me any reason to suspect any other guys and let me know she loved me very much. Our sex life was always amazing. Still I kind of left this wall up. I couldn’t completely give her all of me like i used to. Now a little back story on her she had a very bad childhood with some very awful things that happened to her which have caused ptsd and very bad anxiety to this day. Idk if it’s from her childhood but she is a runner. When we have very bad fights she runs to stay with her family instead of staying and talking it out. This happened multiple times. She would realize it and say she needed to stop doing it but couldn’t so it kind of became the norm. Fast forward to about a year and a half ago and we got married. We both loved each other very much still and I thought this may also break that wall down that I had built up. It didn’t though. I couldn’t give her the affection she wanted and practically begged for. She says now she would argue just to get some attention from me. Anyway during one of our fights I said that maybe we should just divorce and be done. I didn’t mean it but I was just mad. She left and went to her families as usual and I basically expected her to come back like she would but she never really did. For months we were still together but there so much arguments she was basically not even living at the house. She finally asked if I was really done and I said yes(my biggest regret ever). So she moved on.

About a month or so after me saying that she had met someone else. They have now been dating about a month and she says she is happier then she has ever been. I tried to ask for marriage counseling but she declined. She still talks to me pretty regularly and is almost trying to friend zone me which I’m not going to have. The guy she is with is gone and will be for a while. So she only gets to see him via Skype and phone but did admit to sleeping with him before he left which crushed me. 

How can someone you’ve been with for almost a decade and took their daughter in as your own just turn their back on you and move on so quick? I expected us to get over our fight and fix things. I wasn’t even thinking about being with other people. The thought of her making love to him the way we did just kills me. I know begging and pleading isn’t going to do any good but I have made it clear I don’t want a divorce. She does. She says we are just bad for each other and she has moved on happily with her life. Nothing helps the pain and regret. I just wish she were back home and I could give her that affection she was desperately begging for. The affection the new guy is showing her. I just don’t know what to do. I can’t see myself with anyone else. We were best friends and knew each other better than anyone else. I can’t go on without her!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

She can move on because she wants to, and because she didn’t care about you or your marriage as much as you thought she did. It’s really that simple.

Your marriage was a bit of a disaster, just based on your post here. One day perhaps you’ll it that way, and look at her absence with relief instead of pain. I know I do, when I think of my first marriage. And I only have my second (and happy) marriage because my first one ended.

I suspected she always knew that you couldn’t go on without her, which is what she leveraged throughout the relationship to have her cake and to eat it, too.

What you need to realize is that’s a lie. You can go on without her. You’ll have to, and you will, and one day you won’t feel the same way about her. Probably sooner than you realize.

Focus on today. What one thing are you going to do that you’ve been putting off to move yourself forward today?


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Omg you CAN go on without her, stop being pathetic. She is NO PRIZE. Why would you want a woman who would immediately jump into bed with other men the way she has?? The first time killed your trust in her, your relationship was never the same after that because it was eating away at you. As it would most of us! You deserve someone who is going to stick by you and work through your issues, not run home to mommy when you fight and then jump on the first swinging **** that comes along. Dont you think better of yourself than this?? What kind example are you setting for your son? 

No begging, no pleading, no ass kissing. File for divorce and be done with her.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Your completely screwed. Your begging and pleading like a broken puppy while she is getting the attention she was begging you for in the past somewhere else now. 

It sounds like you two just aren’t that compatible as life long companions. Truth is you don’t sound like much of a partner at all from a woman’s point of view likely.

If I were a woman I would have dumped you as well.

I’m going to give you one very good piece of advice.....all that stuff you did in the past that makes you think you “earned love from her” doesn’t mean squat. Woman are animals of constant feeding. They need emotional input and output. You very much denied her in that to your own peril.

Stop begging.....let her go.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I forgot to add that any time you take back a cheating lover you just as well cut off your balls and acknowledge that you have no pride or self worth. This in itself will lead you to have a woman that will never respect you.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I just can’t help myself and keep on posting ......

Just for the record I’m not a huge fan of the RED PILL man stuff but it does have a lot of applications. I very much recommend you read The Rational Male but don’t take everything it says to the Nazi level...


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Mr.Married said:


> I just can’t help myself and keep on posting ......
> 
> Just for the record I’m not a huge fan of the RED PILL man stuff but it does have a lot of applications. I very much recommend you read The Rational Male but don’t take everything it says to the Nazi level...


YES Read "The Rational Male".....you will never have a successful relationship until you understand what you are doing wrong.
Begging has NEVER lead a woman into a man's arms!!
All women find it repulsive.
You are Blue Pill conditioned to the core my friend....
https://therationalmale.com/2011/08/19/the-cardinal-rule-of-relationships/


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

see, here's the thing;

she is 'much happier' now because her relationship is new and exciting and fresh.

she's in what they call the 'fog of love'. those two lovers have not had time yet to really test themselves and figure out all their faults.
their relationship has not gone through the fire.
eventually, probably, they will discover that it wasn't so great after all. they will have their first fight. and then some more.
the fog of love will lift and they will see the REAL themselves and probably break up. 

but when will that be? weeks, months or years????? are you really going to wait it out?

you answered your own question, really: is someone who you spent a decade with, who can move on so easily worth fighting for? 

i'm with the others: you're going to lose that battle.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Reading between the lines, I don't think you were both happy together. I think its better to divorce and find someone who does care about you and who you can care about in return .


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

For the record I said begging and pleading isn’t going to do any good meaning I haven’t been doing that. I’ve had limited contact which involves discussions about the kids. She will still try to text me like a friend but I rarely reply and usually just yes and no answers. She asks for favors I don’t do them. I think I may have been a bit misunderstood


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> Your completely screwed. Your begging and pleading like a broken puppy while she is getting the attention she was begging you for in the past somewhere else now.
> 
> It sounds like you two just aren’t that compatible as life long companions. Truth is you don’t sound like much of a partner at all from a woman’s point of view likely.
> 
> ...


Where did I say I was begging and pleading? I haven’t done that once? I asked about marriage counseling and when she said no I began the separation agreement and divorce process. And what doesn’t make me sound much like a partner from what I wrote out?


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Do what you can to win her back. Fight for your marriage. 

You guys desperately need marriage counseling and you need to learn how to fight fair. It’s not ok to always threat to leave or divorce.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Marduk said:


> She can move on because she wants to, and because she didn’t care about you or your marriage as much as you thought she did. It’s really that simple.
> 
> Your marriage was a bit of a disaster, just based on your post here. One day perhaps you’ll it that way, and look at her absence with relief instead of pain. I know I do, when I think of my first marriage. And I only have my second (and happy) marriage because my first one ended.
> 
> ...


Start thinking of myself as an independent man and not as a married man anymore. I keep seeing events and such and think of her but need to get out of that mindset and begin realizing I’m on my own again.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> I forgot to add that any time you take back a cheating lover you just as well cut off your balls and acknowledge that you have no pride or self worth. This in itself will lead you to have a woman that will never respect you.


I do have to agree with this and believe that’s what was eating away at me was realizing I took her back and lost my self worth from that point forward.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> Do what you can to win her back. Fight for your marriage.
> 
> You guys desperately need marriage counseling and you need to learn how to fight fair. It’s not ok to always threat to leave or divorce.


She isn’t willing to do marriage counseling I tried after I realized we were really coming to a close. You are right I should not have threatened leaving or divorce but it had got to the point that’s how I started feeling. Instead marriage counseling should have been the suggestion.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

3Xnocharm said:


> Omg you CAN go on without her, stop being pathetic. She is NO PRIZE. Why would you want a woman who would immediately jump into bed with other men the way she has?? The first time killed your trust in her, your relationship was never the same after that because it was eating away at you. As it would most of us! You deserve someone who is going to stick by you and work through your issues, not run home to mommy when you fight and then jump on the first swinging **** that comes along. Dont you think better of yourself than this?? What kind example are you setting for your son?
> 
> No begging, no pleading, no ass kissing. File for divorce and be done with her.


I know that I can I’m just hurt after 10yrs of a relationship. No matter how tough a man thinks he is 10yrs down the drain is going to mess with their self esteem some. I haven’t done the begging or pleading and I have started the divorce process.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> I do have to agree with this and believe that’s what was eating away at me was realizing I took her back and lost my self worth from that point forward.


You “lost your self worth” the first time you took her back after she had a short lived fling. Besides losing whatever is left of your self worth, your balls and probably your mind, can you explain exactly why you want this woman back. 
Because I don’t get it.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Mr.Married said:
> 
> 
> > Your completely screwed. Your begging and pleading like a broken puppy while she is getting the attention she was begging you for in the past somewhere else now.
> ...


You are correct. I incorrectly read part of your opening statement. 

Everything else I said still stands.

Just to be clear......when you told her you didn’t want a divorce......You also said “ Its OK that you cheated on me again.”

I know it is tough to hear and swallow but do yourself a HUGE favor and let her go. You are shopping for pain.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

For one thing, stop having children with your girlfriends. Use protection. You sound young and you will end up with multiple kids and multiple child support payments to multiple women. Second, the single mom with the kid with a deadbeat dad is something you need to stay clear of. You have your own children to raise, don’t take on the responsibility for paying for another man’s child. Finally, you may look at this as a learning experience. You rid yourself of a cheater, now focus on your kids and yourself. Don’t jump back into another relationship and make the same mistakes over and over again.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

NeverGoingBack said:


> 3Xnocharm said:
> 
> 
> > Omg you CAN go on without her, stop being pathetic. She is NO PRIZE. Why would you want a woman who would immediately jump into bed with other men the way she has?? The first time killed your trust in her, your relationship was never the same after that because it was eating away at you. As it would most of us! You deserve someone who is going to stick by you and work through your issues, not run home to mommy when you fight and then jump on the first swinging **** that comes along. Dont you think better of yourself than this?? What kind example are you setting for your son?
> ...


Hang around here for a while and read other stories. You will find that in general when it comes to divorce....the woman are tougher than the men mentally and have better exit plans. On the other hand men don’t tend to hang on to divorce baggage as long as the women.

Your going to be a good forum customer....you seem to handle a couple punches.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

You said your wife experienced childhood trauma, and in my (heavily biased) opinion, that is your problem here.

You mentioned your wife running when you have a fight. That is not uncommon in people who have experienced childhood trauma. For people with a background of trauma, they have been taught that the world is not safe. What do we do when we are in danger? We protect ourselves. We go into fight, flight, or freeze mode. She chooses flight. For her, that works. After all, it got her through her childhood, right? It made her survive. It becomes so ingrained that it becomes an automatic response. Something that she needs to learn, with or without you in her life, is that she no longer needs to do that. She will not be able to do that without a therapist.

People who experience childhood trauma can learn that the world is not safe, that they cannot lean on those closest to them, and that they cannot trust other people. When you told your wife that you wanted a divorce, your wife's interpretation of that may have been that you are not a safe and reliable person. That is not your fault, that is something that she has to choose to work on.

Another thing to mention is that childhood trauma can affect how someone bonds with other people. For some people, they won't fully bond because it makes it easy for them to detach if needed or if their loved one leaves them. There is a better way to word that, but my brain isn't working well right now. So, as an example: A couple of months ago, my wife and I were pretty much separated for a month. We had a fight, and I said that I wanted a divorce. We didn't really talk, and we didn't see each other. My wife, who had previously begged me to stay with her after she cheated, felt detached VERY quickly. If she had run to another man, I could honestly see her still being with him and not with me.

You mentioned how can your wife move on so quickly after how long you've been together and after everything she has done for you. Don't assume that your wife views things the same way that you do. Recently, my wife asked me, "Do you think you have ever really loved me?". My immediate reaction was hurt and anger. In my mind, it should be obvious to her that I love her. After all, I'm with her, she cheated, and I stayed with her, I chose to raise another man's child, I'm supporting her, etc. The thing is, she doesn't see it that way. She can come up with multiple reasons that negate all of my reasons. That's just the way her mind works, as a direct result of childhood trauma. That could be something that is going on as well.

All that being said, things won't change unless your wife does, so don't expect them too. You CAN move on, and you CAN live without her. You live without her before, didn't you?

The more I learn about healthy love and healthy relationships, the more I cringe at quotes, sayings, and songs about how you can't live without someone, etc. One person cannot be the end-all, be-all of your existence, and even if they could, putting that much responsibility on someone wouldn't be very fair! You are in control of your happiness, no one else.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> For one thing, stop having children with your girlfriends. Use protection. You sound young and you will end up with multiple kids and multiple child support payments to multiple women. Second, the single mom with the kid with a deadbeat dad is something you need to stay clear of. You have your own children to raise, don’t take on the responsibility for paying for another man’s child. Finally, you may look at this as a learning experience. You rid yourself of a cheater, now focus on your kids and yourself. Don’t jump back into another relationship and make the same mistakes over and over again.


My youngest is 8 and oldest 12 thanks for the tip though


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > 3Xnocharm said:
> ...


I need the punches, the good ole hardcore truth!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

bobert said:


> The more I learn about healthy love and healthy relationships, the more I cringe at quotes, sayings, and songs about how you can't live without someone, etc. One person cannot be the end-all, be-all of your existence, and even if they could, putting that much responsibility on someone wouldn't be very fair! You are in control of your happiness, no one else.


Same. Makes me cringe. Its especially off-putting when its coming from a man. (sorry)


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

bobert said:


> You said your wife experienced childhood trauma, and in my (heavily biased) opinion, that is your problem here.
> 
> You mentioned your wife running when you have a fight. That is not uncommon in people who have experienced childhood trauma. For people with a background of trauma, they have been taught that the world is not safe. What do we do when we are in danger? We protect ourselves. We go into fight, flight, or freeze mode. She chooses flight. For her, that works. After all, it got her through her childhood, right? It made her survive. It becomes so ingrained that it becomes an automatic response. Something that she needs to learn, with or without you in her life, is that she no longer needs to do that. She will not be able to do that without a therapist.
> 
> ...



Everything you said is spot on. We had deep conversations about her childhood trauma and she even said that she sometimes feels like she needs to sabotage something that is going good in her life aka me. We had that discussion after she cheated. She was very genuine with her reasons for it and that she just feels like she doesn’t deserve happiness. This in turn made me feel like I needed to be even more of a protector for her which is why I took her back. I loved this woman deeply and understood that what happened to her screwed her up all throughout her life and that she didn’t have to worry about that with me. I made that clear over and over but it just didn’t do any good. Like you said her reasoning and mine are programmed completely different. It’s a lot deeper than just some **** going out and cheating.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

3Xnocharm said:


> bobert said:
> 
> 
> > The more I learn about healthy love and healthy relationships, the more I cringe at quotes, sayings, and songs about how you can't live without someone, etc. One person cannot be the end-all, be-all of your existence, and even if they could, putting that much responsibility on someone wouldn't be very fair! You are in control of your happiness, no one else.
> ...


You’re response doesn’t bother me. I know I can live without her. I’m not sitting around with a box of tissues I’m handling my daily responsibilities as a man. Do I miss her, absolutely! Will it pass, absolutely!


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

NeverGoingBack :

For your future you need to remember men and women love differently. Neither is right or wrong....just different. There are plenty books out there that can help you learn the laws of attraction. Most of it is very basic and things you already know deep down. Some times we just need a little reminder of how “humanizing” works between the sexes. 

At this point in your state of affairs you need to stick with your divorce plan and see it through. 

Get some individual counseling. Be aware some counselors really suck .... it might take a couple tries.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Impulsive, is the way her mind works. She's a linear type thinker and nothing you say or do will change her mind. Most men are problems solvers but in love it hardly ever works why did yours last so long is this you both explode and make up with hysterical bonding (massive great sex) and you both mistake it for closeness. It isn't! 

And because your a problem solver your KISA, took over and allow you to attempt to love her differently but as you found out it didn't work. Because nonreturnable boundaries had been crossed. Well at least you're children may have a chance but only you and you STBX know if you already screwed them up. 

What can you do is the 180 read it here on TAM it's in the STICKY section. When you see her next be calm and self-assured no tears or l miss you. She's done and has the power in your relationship and she knows it. If you children need help please get them into some therapy. So they can have a shot at a normal life. And it's best if you don't play the pick me game.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Everything you said is spot on. We had deep conversations about her childhood trauma and she even said that she sometimes feels like she needs to sabotage something that is going good in her life aka me. We had that discussion after she cheated. She was very genuine with her reasons for it and that she just feels like she doesn’t deserve happiness. This in turn made me feel like I needed to be even more of a protector for her which is why I took her back. I loved this woman deeply and understood that what happened to her screwed her up all throughout her life and that she didn’t have to worry about that with me. I made that clear over and over but it just didn’t do any good. Like you said her reasoning and mine are programmed completely different. It’s a lot deeper than just some **** going out and cheating.


She is on her journey and she is now her own problem. The time where her problems are your problems are at an end.

At some point, you will feel relieved by it. The drama. Spectating the continual self-inflicted pain. The lies, half truths, continual shifting of sands beneath your feet. One day, very soon, you will open your eyes when you wake up, go through the day, go to bed, and then realize... you didn’t think about her at all today. And it was a good day.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Listen everyone I want to make it clear because a lot of you seem to be saying the same thing and sorry if it came off this way originally but I am not begging, crying or pleading for her to come back! No tears, no I miss you no any of that. I am familiar with the 180 and the LC and all of that. I learned about it the first time she cheated on me. I should have listened and took a lot of the advice back then but was stupid and didn't. I know my username and a few comments of mine may make it sound like I'm sitting around sobbing but I'm not. I would love more than anything to make my marriage work and have my family back but it's gone. I'm just wasting time at this point thinking about the past. She has moved on is ****ing another man and there would be no way I could make it work. I wouldn't be able to make love to her again without thinking about her doing that with this guy. It's over I realize it.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

I just wish people would understand it's much more complex than I've made it out to be. I feel like I need to be her protector because of her childhood events and I feel I have failed at doing that. If any man here has ever been with a woman who has ptsd and horrible anxiety for the past few decades because of something so traumatic you would hopefully understand where I'm coming from. I just understand her reasoning for a lot of her decisions but I don't feel it's my fault. I do however wish I would have been more affectionate when she was needing it most instead of being stubborn and holding grudges from petty fights. I guess I am just mad at myself for a lot of things in this failed relationship, my ego has taken a beating as has my self esteem. This is my 2nd failed relationship involving children(have a son from a previous relationship) and I feel like no woman is going to want a man in that situation. I feel like I am going to be single and lonely here on out. Now the first relationship I was young early 20s and that woman was smoking hot but bat**** crazy! There was no wrong doing on my part. She has so many mental issues it's not even funny. Co-parenting has been next to impossible but my son has turned out great, she has remarried but still holds a huge grudge against me. Anyway that's a story for another time.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Listen everyone I want to make it clear because a lot of you seem to be saying the same thing and sorry if it came off this way originally but I am not begging, crying or pleading for her to come back! No tears, no I miss you no any of that. I am familiar with the 180 and the LC and all of that. I learned about it the first time she cheated on me. I should have listened and took a lot of the advice back then but was stupid and didn't. I know my username and a few comments of mine may make it sound like I'm sitting around sobbing but I'm not. I would love more than anything to make my marriage work and have my family back but it's gone. I'm just wasting time at this point thinking about the past. She has moved on is ****ing another man and there would be no way I could make it work. I wouldn't be able to make love to her again without thinking about her doing that with this guy. It's over I realize it.


OK great.

So now what? How can we help you?


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Marduk said:


> OK great.
> 
> So now what? How can we help you?



By giving advice and doing the things that are already being done. I love this group so far. I'm just here for unbiased advice and support that is all.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Marduk said:


> She is on her journey and she is now her own problem. The time where her problems are your problems are at an end.
> 
> At some point, you will feel relieved by it. The drama. Spectating the continual self-inflicted pain. The lies, half truths, continual shifting of sands beneath your feet. One day, very soon, you will open your eyes when you wake up, go through the day, go to bed, and then realize... you didn’t think about her at all today. And it was a good day.



You don't feel that's cold though? To just say your someone else's problem now who has opened up to me more than anyone else in her life and told me her darkest secrets she held in for decades? I just feel that's cold but at the same time I can't keep being the guy waiting around for her to come back.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NeverGoingBack said:


> By giving advice and doing the things that are already being done. I love this group so far. I'm just here for unbiased advice and support that is all.


Lift heavy things often.

Eat good food.

Go to bed earlier than you think you need to.

Meditate.

Listen to good music too loud.

When you’re ready, it could be the time where it’s ok for you to be a bit of a kid again. When I got divorced in my mid/late 20’s, I went through a second teenage kind of thing. Hung out with my buddies. Played video games. Played sports. Spent money on stupid things. Bought a sports car. Built a wicked shag pad. Had way too many parties. Chased way too many women. Travelled. Would just pack up and leave for a weekend, because I could. Woke up in way too many strange situations. 

When I was ready to settle down again, I was really ready, because all that stuff went from distracting me from my pain to fun and exciting to stupid and boring. And then I met wife #2!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

NeverGoingBack said:


> You don't feel that's cold though? To just say your someone else's problem now who has opened up to me more than anyone else in her life and told me her darkest secrets she held in for decades? I just feel that's cold but at the same time I can't keep being the guy waiting around for her to come back.


 @NeverGoingBack

I am speaking to you as a survivor of childhood trauma, and nope I don't think what @Marduk wrote is cold at all. Let's look at it:



> She is on her journey and she is now her own problem. The time where her problems are your problems are at an end.


In real life, each one of us comes into this world alone, and each one of us leaves this world alone. No one will ever be inside my head or in my skin or live my life...so I'm actually an individual, alone. So are you. So is she. My problems ARE my problems and always are--her problems are her problems and always were. Now for a short time you two had a relationship and the two of you chose to walk along on the path together, but you may have even volunteered to help her carry her problems, but her problems were still HERS TO BEAR and they still are. What has changed is that there is a cost and a benefit to every choice, and the choice to be with another man means that YOU no longer volunteer to help her carry what is hers to carry. That is just reality. So nope, that is not cold. 



> At some point, you will feel relieved by it. The drama. Spectating the continual self-inflicted pain. The lies, half truths, continual shifting of sands beneath your feet.


You may not realize it yet, but you've been living in an adrenalized state. The pain, lies, insecuity, and drama keep you "on your toes" and when you're on your toes, adrenalin is pumping through your body. Once you've gone for a while adrenalized, it feels "normal" and when you have a couple days WITHOUT adrenalin--no crisis, no drama--you may feel either like this isn't normal or even "crash" a bit! 

Again, it is absolutely not cold for you to say "Hey for my own mental and physical health, I need some time that is peaceful, calm, and non-dramatic. That means I am going to allow you to experience the natural consequences of the choices you made and let you live with the problems you carry. " It is right and reasonable for you to take time for yourself to recover, both mentally and physically. It is not cold to feel relief at the prospect of stability and peace. 



> One day, very soon, you will open your eyes when you wake up, go through the day, go to bed, and then realize... you didn’t think about her at all today. And it was a good day.


----------



## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

I don't pretend to understand what you or she has been through.
But I do know one thing. You cannot protect a person from themselves. 
They have to face up to their demons and get some help or resolution for them.

Its only then can they grow.

Trust me. Many here have struggled with trauma, mental wellness issues and a whole host of ****
Many of us still bear the scars and get triggered (hence the tough love)

You can love. BUt you can't FIX. In the words of someone else on this forum here "not your circus, not your monkeys"


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Marduk said:


> Lift heavy things often.
> 
> Eat good food.
> 
> ...



I would love more than anything to go back to the parties, spontaneous road trips and waking up in strange places but unfortunately I have my daughter the majority of the time and no family around here to babysit so those aren't options. I wish they were. But I will do activities that I can fit in my schedule to keep me busy.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Ok so someone asked how can they help me? Here is a perfect example of why I'm here. So my daughter is with me literally 90% of the time so when I say what I'm about to say I don't want to sound like some deadbeat dad. Tonight stbxw wanted my daughter so she called and asked if she could borrow money for gas because she doesn't get her check until tomorrow and had no way to get her and get back her tomorrow morning to get her to school(she lives about 20-30min away now). At first I said no and that my daughter could just stay here again if she couldn't afford to come get her but then I remembered that I have work early in the morning and she is too young to get herself up, ready and to the bus so I ended up giving in and giving her the money. I felt like a chump, like it was a test that I failed but what am I to do in a situation like that? I have NO family around here that could have helped me in the morning and no one else I could call last minute tonight to come do it. She thanked me and I told her she didn't need to thank me that it wasn't for her it was for my daughter. The thing that pisses me off is I know for a fact she traveled and had the gas to go see her bf just last night(she doesn't know that and I didn't let her know that I know) but it makes me feel like a chump because she knew she was getting our daughter today so why wouldn't she have saved the money for her daughter over her bf? Did I do the wrong or right thing? I just really didn't have any other option for my daughter.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Affaircare said:


> @NeverGoingBack
> 
> I am speaking to you as a survivor of childhood trauma, and nope I don't think what @Marduk wrote is cold at all. Let's look at it:
> 
> ...


Thank you for this! It makes me feel a lot better regarding that whole situation. I just have a big heart and take into consideration some of her mistakes/actions based off of what she has been through but what you have wrote def. puts things in a different perspective as far as how I was looking at that whole situation. I just need to start putting myself first again and realizing I have lost my other half that I am out on my own again and only my problems are what I should worry about.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

NeverGoingBack said:


> She sometimes feels like she needs to sabotage something that is going good in her life aka me.


Self-sabotaging can be a default survival pattern. It isn't always done with the intention of hurting anyone. Now, that doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. Of course it hurts! It is also not an excuse for her cheating, so don't ever use that for a justification. It's good that she understands that part of her, but understanding that part doesn't do much good unless she puts in the effort to fix it. Until then, it will remain a problem and vulnerability. Feeling like she doesn't deserve happiness plays into that as well. 



> I loved this woman deeply and understood that what happened to her screwed her up all throughout her life and that she didn’t have to worry about that with me. I made that clear over and over but it just didn’t do any good.


You could be the best husband in the universe, and she still wouldn't believe you. Until she learns that she has value and is loveable, she won't feel loved - regardless of what you do. My wife and I are in our mid-30's, a few days ago she said "I feel like you love me" and that is the first time she has ever felt that feeling. She was, and still is, confused by the feeling and it makes her want to push me away (she doesn't, but those thoughts are there). That is after months and months of therapy. 



> I just wish people would understand it's much more complex than I've made it out to be. I feel like I need to be her protector because of her childhood events and I feel I have failed at doing that. If any man here has ever been with a woman who has ptsd and horrible anxiety for the past few decades because of something so traumatic you would hopefully understand where I'm coming from.


I'm in my mid-30's. My wife went through a lot of childhood trauma and has mental illnesses that stem from that (including PTSD and anxiety). She had two long term affairs, and she intended on divorcing to be with another man (but didn't). Various things during our marriage led to a lot of resentment towards her. I didn't give her the affection that she needed. So, I get it. I understand wishing you would have done things differently and being mad at yourself. I couldn't tell you how many "if only..." thoughts I have had. 

Here's the thing though... Yes, you played a role in the demise of your marriage. If you can dig deep and acknowledge that things that you did wrong, then you are already ahead of A LOT of people. You are responsible for your half of the marriage, and your wife is responsible for her half. However, her cheating is 100% on her. It doesn't matter what you did or how you treated her, she choose to cheat. She could have taken several other routes, but she didn't. That is NOT your fault, regardless of whatever fights you had or affection you withheld. I understand the "what if" and "if only" thoughts. At some point, you will get to the point of accepting the past for what it was. 



> Now the first relationship I was young early 20s and that woman was smoking hot but bat**** crazy! There was no wrong doing on my part. She has so many mental issues it's not even funny.


You said there was no wrongdoing on your part, during your first marriage. I think you need to think about that a little more, especially based on the pattern of women you choose. 

It sounds like you have a savior complex, a KISA. Someone with a savior complex is a person who feels compelled to rescue or fix other people, and seeks out partners to fix rescue, often to their own detriment. It sounds noble, but really, it's not. If you are trying to save your wife, you are looking at her and saying that she cannot take care of her self and that she is a project for you to fix or save. We don't get into romantic relationships to be a caregiver, protector, or parent, we do it to have a partnership.

Your wife's problems are her problems. Your problems are your problems. You can choose to share those problems but they will always be her problems and your problems. When your marriage came to an end, so did your support. Now, that doesn't mean you have to be an ***hole to her, or that you have to refuse to help her in a time of crisis. It means you take a step back, and that is something she chose - whether she realized it at the time or not. 



> I feel like no woman is going to want a man in that situation. I feel like I am going to be single and lonely here on out.


That is normal worrying. Before you worry about that you need to get yourself healthy too. Once you are healthy and ready for a relationship, you will be feeling a lot better about this. 



> Ok so someone asked how can they help me? Here is a perfect example of why I'm here. So my daughter is with me literally 90% of the time so when I say what I'm about to say I don't want to sound like some deadbeat dad. Tonight stbxw wanted my daughter so she called and asked if she could borrow money for gas because she doesn't get her check until tomorrow and had no way to get her and get back her tomorrow morning to get her to school(she lives about 20-30min away now). At first I said no and that my daughter could just stay here again if she couldn't afford to come get her but then I remembered that I have work early in the morning and she is too young to get herself up, ready and to the bus so I ended up giving in and giving her the money. I felt like a chump, like it was a test that I failed but what am I to do in a situation like that?


It sounds like in this scenario you didn't have much of a choice. I understand that it is for your daughter, but I would tell your STBX that this is a one-time exception and in the future you will not repeat this. Can you arrange a better plan for the future?

I realize that it is too late for this now, but would it have been possible for you to drop your daughter off tonight, then your STBX take her to school tomorrow - since she gets paid tomorrow?


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

NeverGoingBack said:


> You’re response doesn’t bother me. I know I can live without her. I’m not sitting around with a box of tissues I’m handling my daily responsibilities as a man. Do I miss her, absolutely! Will it pass, absolutely!


NeverGoingBack...... I understand why you want her back in some degree.....you want the pain

to go away. But trust me, it would return within 3-6 months. You would resent taking her back.

I've been there.... yes those times were over 25 years ago but pain is not prejudice.

I broke it off with my 1st and 2nd love, HS and college sweethearts. I thought I made

the wrong decision when the pain came swooping in. No I never M either. But each time.....

we got back together, it wasn't too long after, I felt I had made a mistake. So the second time around

with each....albeit there were wonderful memories....it never was the same. Yes I wasted time

trying it again with each. Time I can never get back. I never tried a 3rd time around but I've seen it

on TAM. All I can say to that is....

Fool me once......shame on you
Fool me twice.....shame on me
Fool me thrice....you must enjoy pain

She is a runner.....just like my 1st love was.... let me guess.... gorgeous on the outside, rotted on inside.

Go back and read my Crossroads II thread where I spoke about my 1st love in depth. My pop called dating her

the Cocaine Dance. So easily seduced into the tornado and you have no control. The key thing he stressed was....

she has no control either.....she actually doesn't want control. Be glad you are moving on.

Follow through with the D full speed. Your W is like my 1st love, she will run until her heart gives out.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

bobert said:


> Self-sabotaging can be a default survival pattern. It isn't always done with the intention of hurting anyone. Now, that doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. Of course it hurts! It is also not an excuse for her cheating, so don't ever use that for a justification. It's good that she understands that part of her, but understanding that part doesn't do much good unless she puts in the effort to fix it. Until then, it will remain a problem and vulnerability. Feeling like she doesn't deserve happiness plays into that as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First off thank you for taking the time to break everything down. I really appreciate all the comments. Your wife sounds a lot like my stbxw. Just curious how did you get past the two affairs? Were they just emotional or physical? As to your question regarding the payment tonight, she doesn't get paid until late tomorrow so that was the issue of needing the money tonight. I did drop my daughter of tonight and then gave her money to get them to school in the morning and my daughter has an activity after school she needs to take her to.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Chuck71 said:


> NeverGoingBack...... I understand why you want her back in some degree.....you want the pain
> 
> to go away. But trust me, it would return within 3-6 months. You would resent taking her back.
> 
> ...


I will have to go and read your Crossroads II thread. My sons mom was beautiful on the outside and completely rotten on the inside. My stbxw is very beautiful on the outside as well but not completely rotten on the inside, just very very damaged. She has a very kind heart and would give a stranger her last dollar. She has a lot of great personality traits but she is just damaged when it comes to a loving relationship. She will be happy and then flip and feel like she doesn't deserve it so she will either fight and run or make me out to be the bad guy until I snap and start fighting with her. We desperately needing counseling long ago and we should have done it while we had the chance but that's gone now.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> .. We also were both stressed and tired and would argue and fuss just like every other couple. Another year later we were really arguing but still like best friends, we are both really stubborn and don’t know when to say sorry. We had a pretty bad argument one night and she said she wanted to take a break.
> ...When we have very bad fights she runs to stay with her family instead of staying and talking it out. ... I thought this may also break that wall down that I had built up. It didn’t though. I couldn’t give her the affection she wanted and practically begged for. She says now she would argue just to get some attention from me. Anyway during one of our fights I said that maybe we should just divorce and be done. I didn’t mean it but I was just mad. She finally asked if I was really done and I said yes(my biggest regret ever).


I would suggest you begin to think about what you want your next relationship to be like. Thus far, you have chosen women with some serious problems. Perhaps try to find someone you are physically attracted to, who you are sexually compatible with, but who is more stable, mature, with less drama, maybe with no childhood trama/PTSD/anxiety disorder. I'm not implying that people who have those problems shouldn't find mates, but do you really want it to be you again who has to live with a person with so many emotional issues?

It might be wise to get to know someone fairly well before sleeping with them in order to avoid prematurely bonding with someone with 'issues'. Talk about your past relationships before getting too involved, what you want out of a relationship etc.. If there are a lot of red flags (such as past cheating, big drama, family feuds, drug/drinking abuse, or physical fights), then don't jump in. During early dates (maybe not the 1st), try to find out some family stories about the potential partner's family or relationships, and if it sounds like the people on Dr Phil or Jerry Springer shows, step away. Notice how the next woman you start dating acts when she is frustrated or angry, does she stay fairly rational and do something to cool off, or does she fly off the handle? Does she take her frustration out on you, act passive-aggressive, act controlling, insult you, act snippy, or guilt-trip you?

Meet women through shared activities and not at bars. Or if meeting online, ensure you have a lot in common before even getting together.

A red flag to me is that your above statements imply that you think it is normal to have so many fights in a marriage or relationship. In good marriages, you should not have huge fights where you scream at each other or don't speak to each for days. I wouldn't even want to be in a relationship with someone who thinks it is normal to yell when they are mad, who slams doors, or storms out. The biggest dealbreaker for me is if someone has a 'hot temper'. Sure my H and I (over 20 years married) argue about dumb things like politics, and we get mad if the other one interrupts or doesn't seem to be listening, so sometimes we don't talk much for a couple hours while we cool off. We try to not raise our voice and calmly say 'It really bothered me when you did X'. But we don't yell, insult, slam doors, emotionally abuse, say hurtful things to each other, go sleep on the couch, storm out, or threaten divorce. I could not be with someone who thought it was OK to do those things. It sounds as if you two were taking your frustrations out on each other, not cherishing or nourishing the relationship.

Perhaps you could buy some books on 'fighting fair' and anger management, or go to IC to work on these traits to prepare for your next relationship.

Perhaps read books such as 'His Needs, Her Needs' to understand how women (typically, but not always) need more talking and emotional connection than men, and make sure you are not neglecting your partner's emotional needs in your next relationship. Even when married, it is important to reserve time each week or two to go on a 'date' somewhere just the two of you to reconnect and to get out of the house. Don't take your next relationship for granted.

Re paying for the gas for your stbx, I don't think it would be fair for your stbx to often ask you for gas money. But in the near future, for the sake of your mental health and your daughter, I suggest don't sweat the small stuff. Don't worry so much about a bit of money or whether she pays you back, concentrate on your own emotional healing and physical health and happiness. I would suggest not lending your stbx any large amount, any $ you give her should be small, given only to benefit your children, and do not necessarily expect to be paid back.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

NeverGoingBack said:


> RebuildingMe said:
> 
> 
> > For one thing, stop having children with your girlfriends. Use protection. You sound young and you will end up with multiple kids and multiple child support payments to multiple women. Second, the single mom with the kid with a deadbeat dad is something you need to stay clear of. You have your own children to raise, don’t take on the responsibility for paying for another man’s child. Finally, you may look at this as a learning experience. You rid yourself of a cheater, now focus on your kids and yourself. Don’t jump back into another relationship and make the same mistakes over and over again.
> ...


You missed my point totally. I don’t care how old your kids are, you have a pattern of knocking up your girlfriends and then are forced into bad decisions.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

I agree with Rebuilding above, that you might want to think about why you decided to have children without/before being married to their mothers. Although there are a few exceptions and sometimes unavoidable circumstances, it is usually not the most stable environment for the child. Or if they were accidental pregnancies, perhaps it would be a good idea to take birth control more seriously, e.g. maybe a vasectomy for you, or the woman could implant an IUD perhaps so as not to have to remember to take a pill or have to rely only on condoms which can break.

I see it as another red flag if a person has a pattern of having kids outside of marriage with different baby moms or baby dads, maybe because they don't think things through, things like pregnancy just seem to 'happen' to them, or they thought it would be 'fun' to have a child. Of course there are exceptions where it made sense not to be married, e.g. back when sex-same couples were not allowed to marry (bad example I guess since pregnancy cannot just 'happen' to them), and of course, there are sad situations where a woman becomes pregnant due to rape.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Just curious how did you get past the two affairs? Were they just emotional or physical?


I'll let you know when I do.

Honestly, it takes time and a lot of work. I wouldn't say that I'm past the affairs, but things are a lot better than they were. Both affairs were physical. The first was a full-blown relationship, with a child conceived. The second was an off and on physical affair. I found out a year ago.

What has helped me is time, therapy, a lot of crying, and an understanding (not justification) of why my wife did what she did. I spent months ****ing around in therapy until I found what methods worked for me AND chose to actually put an effort in and move forward. Until I was ready to accept what had happened, that I couldn't change the past, and take a good look at myself, I wasn't moving forward. Keep in mind, you will never forget the past. The point of moving past the affair isn't to forget, it's to accept that the past is what it is, and choosing to move forward with your life.

For my situation, I'm reconciling so my wife has been a large part of that healing and moving forward (together). If she wasn't doing the things that she has, we wouldn't be together. Some days the only reason I stayed with her was that she was doing everything right.

I can ask her any question, any time, and she will answer it honestly. She has never once told me to "get over it." She doesn't care at all if I look through her stuff or monitor what she does. She is always thinking about me and my comfort. She tells me everything. She keeps me filled in about her day, so there is no guesswork. She has been working with therapists all year to work on her own issues. She is genuinely remorseful. She is incredibly compassionate and empathetic. She has put up with so much **** from me, and it took me a long time to cool down. I can probably count on one hand the number of times she has been truly mad at me in this process. She has never once blamed me. She owns her choices and refuses to let me take any blame for them. The times that I have tried to rug sweep or explain away her choices (with childhood trauma excuses), she refuses to allow that or play along. If I wanted to rug sweep, I highly doubt she would be with me because she wants better than that for both of us.

---

Regarding your daughter, what is your plan going forward for days that you work? Can you arrange a babysitter, daycare, neighbor? You do need to have a plan.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

NeverGoingBack said:


> For the record I said begging and pleading isn’t going to do any good meaning I haven’t been doing that. I’ve had limited contact which involves discussions about the kids. She will still try to text me like a friend but I rarely reply and usually just yes and no answers. She asks for favors I don’t do them. I think I may have been a bit misunderstood


for the record...get a head start on a better future.
https://therationalmale.com/


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

I used to be you. I took action and my life did a complete 180 and I'm far beyond where I was before. I wrote a book about it if you are interested in learning more:

Click here to learn more.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Ok so someone asked how can they help me? Here is a perfect example of why I'm here. So my daughter is with me literally 90% of the time so when I say what I'm about to say I don't want to sound like some deadbeat dad. Tonight stbxw wanted my daughter so she called and asked if she could borrow money for gas because she doesn't get her check until tomorrow and had no way to get her and get back her tomorrow morning to get her to school(she lives about 20-30min away now). At first I said no and that my daughter could just stay here again if she couldn't afford to come get her but then I remembered that I have work early in the morning and she is too young to get herself up, ready and to the bus so I ended up giving in and giving her the money. I felt like a chump, like it was a test that I failed but what am I to do in a situation like that? I have NO family around here that could have helped me in the morning and no one else I could call last minute tonight to come do it. She thanked me and I told her she didn't need to thank me that it wasn't for her it was for my daughter. The thing that pisses me off is I know for a fact she traveled and had the gas to go see her bf just last night(she doesn't know that and I didn't let her know that I know) but it makes me feel like a chump because she knew she was getting our daughter today so why wouldn't she have saved the money for her daughter over her bf? Did I do the wrong or right thing? I just really didn't have any other option for my daughter.


Yes you were a complete chump and you need to stop doing this. 

She has money to see her BF, but not to get your daughter to school, yeah that is a no go. 

You really need to get your head together and start doing things, your life and kids, in an adult way. 

You could have handled this way better. 

And why do you have your daughter 90% of the time and she can just call you up and want to play mommy whenever she wants??? 

Why is that? 

Is any of this getting through???


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NeverGoingBack said:


> I would love more than anything to go back to the parties, spontaneous road trips and waking up in strange places but unfortunately I have my daughter the majority of the time and no family around here to babysit so those aren't options. I wish they were. But I will do activities that I can fit in my schedule to keep me busy.


My point is to have fun and let you be you. All those things you stopped doing or didn’t do because of your soon to be ex... you’re now free to do. Whatever that means to you.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> @NeverGoingBack
> 
> I am speaking to you as a survivor of childhood trauma, and nope I don't think what @Marduk wrote is cold at all. Let's look at it:
> 
> ...


Wow, I sound really smart when you explain what I said. 

I should pay you to follow me around at work.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Marduk said:


> Wow, I sound really smart when you explain what I said.
> 
> I should pay you to follow me around at work.


I don't think you could pay my rate. >


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

RebuildingMe said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > RebuildingMe said:
> ...


No I actually didn’t miss your point at all I don’t have that pattern you just assumed that. I’ve had many gfs in my younger days I used protection with. My sons mom was my fiancée when we had our son and planned on getting married and my daughters mom ended up being my wife. Sorry I didn’t do things the traditional way but I’m not going around knocking up every gf I’ve had. Thanks for the input though


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

BluesPower said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > Ok so someone asked how can they help me? Here is a perfect example of why I'm here. So my daughter is with me literally 90% of the time so when I say what I'm about to say I don't want to sound like some deadbeat dad. Tonight stbxw wanted my daughter so she called and asked if she could borrow money for gas because she doesn't get her check until tomorrow and had no way to get her and get back her tomorrow morning to get her to school(she lives about 20-30min away now). At first I said no and that my daughter could just stay here again if she couldn't afford to come get her but then I remembered that I have work early in the morning and she is too young to get herself up, ready and to the bus so I ended up giving in and giving her the money. I felt like a chump, like it was a test that I failed but what am I to do in a situation like that? I have NO family around here that could have helped me in the morning and no one else I could call last minute tonight to come do it. She thanked me and I told her she didn't need to thank me that it wasn't for her it was for my daughter. The thing that pisses me off is I know for a fact she traveled and had the gas to go see her bf just last night(she doesn't know that and I didn't let her know that I know) but it makes me feel like a chump because she knew she was getting our daughter today so why wouldn't she have saved the money for her daughter over her bf? Did I do the wrong or right thing? I just really didn't have any other option for my daughter.
> ...


So how would you have handled that?


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> My sons mom was my fiancée when we had our son and planned on getting married and my daughters mom ended up being my wife.


It's not just a matter of tradition to get married first and then get pregnant. It is generally a wise thing to do. A lot of people break up during the engagement period. I think people's behavior changes once they are engaged and they think the relationship is 'secure' and you are stuck with them. Sometimes they show more of their true selves, let their guard down, start taking the other person for granted, become controlling, feel free to show their anger. Also the extended families might start getting involved in the relationship and the wedding planning and you get a preview of how much the families will meddle. It is wise to have a long engagement (BEFORE having kids with the fiancée) for these reasons. You sound like it is no big deal and are being somewhat defensive, and you aren't listening to the feedback from RebuildingMe or taking time to analyze why you made the choices you did to have children before marrying. It seems that you rush into things, such as committing too soon and having children with women who have serious mental issues before really getting to know them.

Or maybe you did see red flags in these women before pregnancy, and decided to have children with them anyway, unrealistically hoping it would all work out or the women would change?


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

kari2 said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > My sons mom was my fiancée when we had our son and planned on getting married and my daughters mom ended up being my wife.
> ...



A lot of ppl get married, have children and divorce as well correct? Both relationships I had children in were long as were the engagements. I feel like the both of you kind of jumped to conclusions before knowing all the facts. It’s not defensive it’s just a matter of you don’t know all the details so how can you possibly say that? Just because someone waits until marriage to have a child because it’s tradition means nothing anymore! Have you checked the divorce rate?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

NeverGoingBack said:


> I just wish people would understand it's much more complex than I've made it out to be. I feel like I need to be her protector because of her childhood events and I feel I have failed at doing that. If any man here has ever been with a woman who has ptsd and horrible anxiety for the past few decades because of something so traumatic you would hopefully understand where I'm coming from.


Men respond to “Girl in distress” to the point of self inflicted insanity sometimes. Men will allow themselves to be put in horrible circumstances to “save the girl”

It’s a fool’s errand. The more she understands you respond to it .... the more they use it. Don’t get me wrong ...her past is indeed unfortunate, but it isn’t your job to save her. 

Read the story of Bobert and form your own opinion of what I say above.

On another note read the story of honcho for a good laugh.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> A lot of ppl get married, have children and divorce as well correct? Both relationships I had children in were long as were the engagements. I feel like the both of you kind of jumped to conclusions before knowing all the facts. It’s not defensive it’s just a matter of you don’t know all the details so how can you possibly say that? Just because someone waits until marriage to have a child because it’s tradition means nothing anymore! Have you checked the divorce rate?


NeverGoingBack: I don't care a fig about tradition either and I'm not religious, so my advice wasn't about what is 'proper' or 'traditional' or 'ethical'. I have nothing against sex before marriage and think it is smart to 'try on the shoe before buying it' and foolish to marry before knowing sexual compatibility. Sometimes there is a very good reason to have children before marriage such as if the woman is engaged but is already near the end of her fertility (e.g. she is 37+) and she is worried it will be hard to conceive so intentionally is in a rush to get pregnant. Or in the 'Murphy Brown' situation where a woman desperately wants a child, has sufficient resources (money and a lot of support from family/friends/nannies) to raise a child by herself without struggle, is getting to the end of her fertility, and cannot find a suitable partner to raise a child with. 

I just think in general a child does better in a situation where the parents are married (either a heterosexual or homosexual marriage). You are right that the divorce rate is sky high, but I think when you marry you have a better chance of staying together, of trying to work it out when there are problems, it is a higher level of commitment. I don't really respect the culture where single parenthood is thought of as just as good, and people just have kids because they neglect birth control, or because they think having a baby would be fun. I think having two married parents (and planned pregnancies) should be the goal, but of course that is not always possible in cases of death or necessary divorce. I don't believe in shotgun marriages either, it's better to raise a child when unmarried than to marry someone you can't get along with. But the concept of a shotgun marriage implies 'accidental pregnancy' which leads to the question of how that happened and how we as a society can help avoid this (e.g. give $ to Planned Parenthood to provide low-cost birth control). Maybe the woman didn't have heathcare coverage to get an IUD for instance, or was it rape, is it a teenage girl that didn't have good sex education about birth control, or did the couple ignore the need for birth control? 

Today in the US, 40% of births each year are to unmarried women. That seems ridiculous and sad to me. Studies indicate that half of births from nonmarital pregnancies today are intended, i.e. half of the time the pregnancy is not an accident for those unmarried people. Why are those women or couples choosing this, I just don't understand. It has been studied, it is increasing across all socioeconomic groups, races, and educational levels (not just a poverty or welfare effect), and the only highly correlated or proven cause identified is 'lack of stigma' associated with unmarried people having babies. I'm not in favor of going backwards to the days of stigma or shame of course. But maybe (since you one data point) you can help me understand why 20% of pregnancies are planned by unmarried women/couples?

Studies show that "parents’ marital status at the time of a child’s birth is a good predictor of longer-term family stability and complexity, both of which influence children’s longer-term wellbeing.”

In your case, you didn't tell us why you chose to have children before marriage or if the pregnancies were accidental. If intentional, why did you decide this? Perhaps one of you wasn't sure about staying together, maybe one of you had some reservations? Maybe you were arguing a lot even before the pregnancies?

If one of the pregnancies was accidental, then as suggested above "perhaps it would be a good idea to take birth control more seriously, e.g. maybe a vasectomy for you, or the woman could implant an IUD perhaps so as not to have to remember to take a pill or have to rely only on condoms which can break.". And sad to say, some women even purposely have supposedly 'accidental' pregnancies (especially women with psychological issues).

If I were single and dating, and I met a man (new dating partner) who had children with multiple women before marriage, it would be a red flag to me, I'd be wondering 'did he think it through', 'is he careless about birth control', 'does he make wise decisions in life', 'is he casual, nonchalant, or unrealistic about the commitment needed to raise a child'? I would be asking him why he chose that path.

I've read that about 3/4 divorces are partially related to 'insufficient commitment'. From a study about divorce (but I think the same could be said about having children outside of marriage): "There is a strong research base supporting the intergenerational transmission of divorce. It has been suggested that both reduced commitment to marriage as an institution and lower confidence that marriages can remain stable and happy may partially account for the heightened risk for divorce among adults from divorced families. By observing their parents separate and divorce, children may learn that marriage is impermanent. Compared to adults from non-divorced families, those whose parents divorced disagree more with the notion that marriage is a lifelong, permanent relationship. Amato and Rogers (1999) suggest that this weak commitment to the general norm of lifelong marriage may ultimately undermine people’s commitments to particular relationships."

You are a role model to your children and you are demonstrating to them that marriage and the decision to have children are separate and independent things, not necessarily tied together. This might affect their future relationships, as described above they might have 'reduced commitment to marriage as an institution' or think it is the norm to have several baby mamas or baby daddies.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

kari2 said:


> NeverGoingBack: I don't care a fig about tradition either and I'm not religious, so my advice wasn't about what is 'proper' or 'traditional' or 'ethical'. I have nothing against sex before marriage and think it is smart to 'try on the shoe before buying it' and foolish to marry before knowing sexual compatibility. Sometimes there is a very good reason to have children before marriage such as if the woman is engaged but is already near the end of her fertility (e.g. she is 37+) and she is worried it will be hard to conceive so intentionally is in a rush to get pregnant. Or in the 'Murphy Brown' situation where a woman desperately wants a child, has sufficient resources (money and a lot of support from family/friends/nannies) to raise a child by herself without struggle, is getting to the end of her fertility, and cannot find a suitable partner to raise a child with.
> 
> I just think in general a child does better in a situation where the parents are married (either a heterosexual or homosexual marriage). You are right that the divorce rate is sky high, but I think when you marry you have a better chance of staying together, of trying to work it out when there are problems, it is a higher level of commitment. I don't really respect the culture where single parenthood is thought of as just as good, and people just have kids because they neglect birth control, or because they think having a baby would be fun. I think having two married parents (and planned pregnancies) should be the goal, but of course that is not always possible in cases of death or necessary divorce. I don't believe in shotgun marriages either, it's better to raise a child when unmarried than to marry someone you can't get along with. But the concept of a shotgun marriage implies 'accidental pregnancy' which leads to the question of how that happened and how we as a society can help avoid this (e.g. give $ to Planned Parenthood to provide low-cost birth control). Maybe the woman didn't have heathcare coverage to get an IUD for instance, or was it rape, is it a teenage girl that didn't have good sex education about birth control, or did the couple ignore the need for birth control?
> 
> ...



I'm going to ask you respectfully to please drop the subject ok? For one I don't think it's the norm to have several "baby mamas". My daughter saw my mother and her get married, yes she was conceived before marriage but she saw us marry and saw that was normal to have a married couple with children. As for my son, I had ever intention on marrying his mom but things changed over the years. It was a very long term relationship not some baby mama I knocked up after a month. He also was close to my wife and saw what a marriage is like as is his mom now remarried and been so for years. So please just drop the subject it is irrelevant to my discussion at this point. Thanks


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

If you want to see what your life will be like 20+ years from now, find threads by people who have tried their whole life to "help, support and fix" their partner when the partner suffered from childhood trauma or difficult mental wellness issues.

It often resembles circling a drain, with intense pain, frustration and hopelessness. We have several members who are currently separating from their partners because they simply have to protect their own health and sanity from here on.

She has to own her issues, and seek healing. right now she is running. Will she ever stop running? some folks never do.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Yea I keep learning day by day that its over! Its ****ing over and there is nothing I can do about it. Both of us destroyed our relationship. Her by running and cheating, me by being showing no affection when she desperately wanted it. That will be one of my biggest regrets. I never thought I wouldn't even be hitting my 2nd yr of marriage and looking into a divorce and hearing that my wife is happy as can be with another man. Life goes on and I am now going to have to man up and move on with life as a single man. I am going to take some time to focus on betting myself mentally, physically and spiritually and when I am ready for a relationship I will search for one. For now it's all about me and my children. Sucks but nobody said life was fair.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

^^^ yes you summed it up pretty much.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> I'm going to ask you respectfully to please drop the subject ok? For one I don't think it's the norm to have several "baby mamas". My daughter saw my mother and her get married, yes she was conceived before marriage but she saw us marry and saw that was normal to have a married couple with children. As for my son, I had ever intention on marrying his mom but things changed over the years. It was a very long term relationship not some baby mama I knocked up after a month. He also was close to my wife and saw what a marriage is like as is his mom now remarried and been so for years. So please just drop the subject it is irrelevant to my discussion at this point. Thanks


Sure I will drop it after this post. You are absolutely right that what I'm saying on this subject is irrelevant to your current problem of trying to detach and recover from this relationship, and of course that is what you are asking and needing help with right now. I just think that (not now but later, in a few months) it might help to take time to analyze your choices and how they relate to how you got into your situation and think about what you might do differently in the future, but I will shut up on the subject of having kids before marriage from now on....

But for now, I do hope you can resist trying to help your stbx too much or 'save' her, and that you don't get sucked back in. It just sounds to me like there is no long term future for you two, even if you got back together, it wouldn't last long I think.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Yea I keep learning day by day that its over! Its ****ing over and there is nothing I can do about it. Both of us destroyed our relationship. Her by running and cheating, me by being showing no affection when she desperately wanted it. That will be one of my biggest regrets. I never thought I wouldn't even be hitting my 2nd yr of marriage and looking into a divorce and hearing that my wife is happy as can be with another man. Life goes on and I am now going to have to man up and move on with life as a single man. I am going to take some time to focus on betting myself mentally, physically and spiritually and when I am ready for a relationship I will search for one. For now it's all about me and my children. Sucks but nobody said life was fair.


Wow, impressive, sounds like you are really accepting this and getting into a very good mindset very quickly.

I also second the suggestions above about really concentrating now on exercise and meditation and healthy eating/lifestyle.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Yea I keep learning day by day that its over! Its ****ing over and there is nothing I can do about it. Both of us destroyed our relationship. Her by running and cheating, me by being showing no affection when she desperately wanted it. That will be one of my biggest regrets. I never thought I wouldn't even be hitting my 2nd yr of marriage and looking into a divorce and hearing that my wife is happy as can be with another man. Life goes on and I am now going to have to man up and move on with life as a single man. I am going to take some time to focus on betting myself mentally, physically and spiritually and when I am ready for a relationship I will search for one. For now it's all about me and my children. Sucks but nobody said life was fair.



Sounds to me like your getting a handle on things quickly. You would be surprised how many men have a complete melt down and exist for vast sums of time in their own pity party.

You will recover from this faster than you think. The strong ones don't always recognize that they are strong.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Yea I keep learning day by day that its over! Its ****ing over and there is nothing I can do about it. Both of us destroyed our relationship. Her by running and cheating, me by being showing no affection when she desperately wanted it. That will be one of my biggest regrets. I never thought I wouldn't even be hitting my 2nd yr of marriage and looking into a divorce and hearing that my wife is happy as can be with another man. Life goes on and I am now going to have to man up and move on with life as a single man. I am going to take some time to focus on betting myself mentally, physically and spiritually and when I am ready for a relationship I will search for one. For now it's all about me and my children. Sucks but nobody said life was fair.


One day at a time. Focus on taking care of you and your kids. It’ll be ok. Just dont go back. She is honeymooning with this guy, it involves a feel good chemical called oxytocin.
When that wears off and reality hits she may try to come back. Although you love her, you can never go back in time and you will never get over the broken trust.
Best to move forward, close that door.


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## TXTraveller (Sep 23, 2019)

aquarius1 said:


> If you want to see what your life will be like 20+ years from now, find threads by people who have tried their whole life to "help, support and fix" their partner when the partner suffered from childhood trauma or difficult mental wellness issues.
> 
> It often resembles circling a drain, with intense pain, frustration and hopelessness. We have several members who are currently separating from their partners because they simply have to protect their own health and sanity from here on.
> 
> She has to own her issues, and seek healing. right now she is running. Will she ever stop running? some folks never do.


Please read this. Take a break. And read it again. This is me, climbing out of the drain from a husband who for a variety of reasons has no coping skills to deal with life. I have to protect my sanity for the sake of my kids who depend on me. We cannot do the work for them and our efforts to give them a soft landing are just a form of enablement.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

aquarius1 said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > Yea I keep learning day by day that its over! Its ****ing over and there is nothing I can do about it. Both of us destroyed our relationship. Her by running and cheating, me by being showing no affection when she desperately wanted it. That will be one of my biggest regrets. I never thought I wouldn't even be hitting my 2nd yr of marriage and looking into a divorce and hearing that my wife is happy as can be with another man. Life goes on and I am now going to have to man up and move on with life as a single man. I am going to take some time to focus on betting myself mentally, physically and spiritually and when I am ready for a relationship I will search for one. For now it's all about me and my children. Sucks but nobody said life was fair.
> ...


Yes I learned this the hard way. Like I said she cheated once before marriage. Came running back when the feels good wore off and she realized he wasn’t Mr. Right and I took her back. Things were never the same and that was 5yrs ago. I never could give her 100% of my love and affection the way I could before that. I guess it was my subconscious knowing not to do it because of the pain I would go through again. That’s why the pain isn’t as bad this time and why I’m moving forward so much easier I prepared myself for it ever since the first time it happened. The first affair I was a complete train wreck. Damn near suicidal and I don’t consider myself a soft man but i deeply loved her and the connection I thought we shared was so strong that cheating wasn’t even in the mind of either of us. I need to realize that I don’t understand women how I thought I did. Seems the minute they don’t get that attention they crave or have some type of mental health issue they will cheat at the drop of a dime. I did my fair share of dogging woman out in my early years but as I matured I realized how wrong that was to toy with someone’s emotions. Maybe it’s karma for all the bad I did to women in my early adulthood.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Mr.Married said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > Yea I keep learning day by day that its over! Its ****ing over and there is nothing I can do about it. Both of us destroyed our relationship. Her by running and cheating, me by being showing no affection when she desperately wanted it. That will be one of my biggest regrets. I never thought I wouldn't even be hitting my 2nd yr of marriage and looking into a divorce and hearing that my wife is happy as can be with another man. Life goes on and I am now going to have to man up and move on with life as a single man. I am going to take some time to focus on betting myself mentally, physically and spiritually and when I am ready for a relationship I will search for one. For now it's all about me and my children. Sucks but nobody said life was fair.
> ...


I can’t do that. I can’t sit around and be a pathetic man sobbing my entire life away. Do I miss her? Hell yea. Do I miss my family together and hate that my children now have a broken up family? Absolutely! But at the end of the day I let it be known I wanted marriage counseling to fix us, I stayed loyal and committed our entire relationship, I wanted her back home to fix things. She chose her bed. Am I guilty of our relationship problems? Yes I am, and I own up to my half of it. I could have been more affectionate. I could have tried harder to get the kids a baby sitter and had more date nights. I could have been nicer when I came home some days from work in a bad mood. No marriage is perfect though. It takes a balance of communication, commitment and understanding from both sides in order to make it work. Marriage is hard and she ran from ours every time things went wrong. It got to feeling like a teenage daughter than a wife. Having to chase back down the teenager who ran away because she was upset. There are also many great qualities I miss about her but overall it’s dead. What we had is dead. There’s no reviving it and I am coming to terms with that whether I like it or not. I do suffer from depression and this has made that worse. My self esteem is at an all time low. I feel no woman wants a man with two failed relationships with children from both. I fear being along which brings on horrible anxiety. So for now I’ve been just working and spending time with my children. I am going to take small steps into getting myself back out in the world and a chance to meet new people. Right now I’m just not ready.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> ...Anyway *during one of our fights I said that maybe we should just divorce and be done. I didn’t mean it but I was just mad.* She left and went to her families as usual and I basically expected her to come back like she would but she never really did. For months we were still together but there so much arguments she was basically not even living at the house. She finally asked if I was really done and I said yes(my biggest regret ever). So she moved on.
> 
> *How can someone you’ve been with for almost a decade and took their daughter in as your own just turn their back on you and move on so quick?* I expected us to get over our fight and fix things. I wasn’t even thinking about being with other people. The thought of her making love to him the way we did just kills me. I know begging and pleading isn’t going to do any good but I have made it clear I don’t want a divorce. She does. She says we are just bad for each other and she has moved on happily with her life. Nothing helps the pain and regret. I just wish she were back home and I could give her that affection she was desperately begging for. The affection the new guy is showing her. I just don’t know what to do. I can’t see myself with anyone else. We were best friends and knew each other better than anyone else. I can’t go on without her!


She moved on because you told her that you wanted a divorce. If you didn’t mean it the first time you suggested it, why would you say that you did when she confirmed with you awhile later? I’m sorry for your situation, and I’m sorry that you find yourself here, but to me, it sounds like you did yourself a big disservice by throwing around the “D” word in the first place, and then throwing it around AGAIN. No wonder she left; she thought you were done with the relationship. My suggestion to you would be to maybe start some individualized counselling, and concentrate on being there for your kids. Get some grounding, find someone new eventually, and never, ever throw around the word “divorce” again.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

Ursula said:


> She moved on because you told her that you wanted a divorce. If you didn’t mean it the first time you suggested it, why would you say that you did when she confirmed with you awhile later? I’m sorry for your situation, and I’m sorry that you find yourself here, but to me, it sounds like you did yourself a big disservice by throwing around the “D” word in the first place, and then throwing it around AGAIN. No wonder she left; she thought you were done with the relationship. My suggestion to you would be to maybe start some individualized counselling, and concentrate on being there for your kids. Get some grounding, find someone new eventually, and never, ever throw around the word “divorce” again.


Unfortunately she was cheating before they even married. 
Neither one of them is perfect.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Yes I learned this the hard way. Like I said she cheated once before marriage. Came running back when the feels good wore off and she realized he wasn’t Mr. Right an*d I took her back. Things were never the same and that was 5yrs ago*. I never could give her 100% of my love and affection the way I could before that. I guess it was my subconscious knowing not to do it because of the pain I would go through again. That’s why the pain isn’t as bad this time and why I’m moving forward so much easier I prepared myself for it ever since the first time it happened. The first affair I was a complete train wreck. Damn near suicidal and I don’t consider myself a soft man but i deeply loved her and the connection I thought we shared was so strong that cheating wasn’t even in the mind of either of us. I need to realize that I don’t understand women how I thought I did. Seems the minute they don’t get that attention they crave or have some type of mental health issue they will cheat at the drop of a dime. I did my fair share of dogging woman out in my early years but as I matured I realized how wrong that was to toy with someone’s emotions. Maybe it’s karma for all the bad I did to women in my early adulthood.


You keep blaming yourself that you didn't give her enough affection. See the bold above -- SHE never did the work to earn that affection back. You both rug-swept, and she was ok with that. You DID NOTHING to have her cheat on you.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Ursula said:


> She moved on because you told her that you wanted a divorce. If you didn’t mean it the first time you suggested it, why would you say that you did when she confirmed with you awhile later? I’m sorry for your situation, and I’m sorry that you find yourself here, but to me, it sounds like you did yourself a big disservice by throwing around the “D” word in the first place, and then throwing it around AGAIN. No wonder she left; she thought you were done with the relationship. My suggestion to you would be to maybe start some individualized counselling, and concentrate on being there for your kids. Get some grounding, find someone new eventually, and never, ever throw around the word “divorce” again.


Not to play the blame game but she had brought it up before a few different times during heated arguments so it's not like she was perfect and caught off guard by the one time I said it. And maybe I did mean it. Maybe it's not her Im missing but the good times we used to have before she decided to cheat on me and then instead of marriage counseling as suggested go get a bf while still my wife and start ****ing him! Trust me she was far from perfect.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Not to play the blame game but she had brought it up before a few different times during heated arguments so it's not like she was perfect and caught off guard by the one time I said it. And maybe I did mean it. *Maybe it's not her Im missing but the good times we used to have before she decided to cheat on me and then instead of marriage counseling as suggested go get a bf while still my wife and start ****ing him!* Trust me she was far from perfect.


 @NeverGoingBack
I think you will be just fine, actually better than that. You have an exceptional grasp on the nuances of infidelity and how to handle them. Good onya. I also think you should probably be giving advice to the many weak men that just don't get it.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Rubix Cubed said:


> @NeverGoingBack
> I think you will be just fine, actually better than that. You have an exceptional grasp on the nuances of infidelity and how to handle them. Good onya. I also think you should probably be giving advice to the many weak men that just don't get it.



I greatly appreciate your comment. I have just been through it before. With my sons mom I was in love with her(so I thought) and we got in a huge fight one evening so she asked to be dropped off at her moms, this was back in my early 20s. She left the car all upset crying and later that night went camping with some friends and slept with a man who actually turned out to be her husband now ironically. Anyway, she begged and pleaded and like a fool I took her back as well, few yrs went by we got engaged and had a son. She was such a drama queen though and not the one for me. Beautiful as can be, I mean model material but so ugly on the inside and still is. Treats her husband the same way she always did me. Anyway, point to all this is I have been cheated on a few times in my life by women who meant a lot to me so I have learned almost to not let it tear you up inside. It does no good. It's not going to change what happened and they certainly have no remorse for it even if they cry and say they do. You don't cheat on someone you love. On a side note I used to cheat on almost all my girlfriends in my late teens so maybe it's karma I am receiving for all the hearts I broke. Anyway, maybe with time I will build the courage to start speaking out to the weak men and trying to give them an understanding that sobbing for months or years on end is only destroying themselves while the person they are sobbing about is out probably having the best sex of their life.


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Not to play the blame game but she had brought it up before a few different times during heated arguments so it's not like she was perfect and caught off guard by the one time I said it. And maybe I did mean it. Maybe it's not her Im missing but the good times we used to have before she decided to cheat on me and then instead of marriage counseling as suggested go get a bf while still my wife and start ****ing him! Trust me she was far from perfect.





aquarius1 said:


> Unfortunately she was cheating before they even married.
> Neither one of them is perfect.


Gotcha. Yeah, it's not right for anyone in a marriage or relationship in general to throw around the "D" word. I wasn't trying to paint your ex as perfect; no one is, and I'm sorry that she cheated on you. To be honest, it sounds like you're better off without someone like that, and I wish you well in the future.


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## kari2 (Jul 8, 2016)

NeverGoingBack said:


> Not to play the blame game but she had brought it up before a few different times during heated arguments so it's not like she was perfect and caught off guard by the one time I said it. And maybe I did mean it. Maybe it's not her Im missing but the good times we used to have before she decided to cheat on me and then instead of marriage counseling as suggested go get a bf while still my wife and start ****ing him! Trust me she was far from perfect.


Hopefully you can avoid spending much time thinking about blame right now since it is better for your own mental state to focus of how to move on in the future, how to be healthy and try to find some joy in life. Also focus on preventing yourself from socializing with your stbx (or giving her another chance) since there may come a day where she might try to get you to take her back someday if she and her new guy break up. 

Focusing on 'blame' sounds like wallowing in the past. Your stbx has some major emotional issues, partly due to her childhood trauma, but that doesn't excuse her behavior. However maybe understanding about her childhood trauma will help you to not hate her because it is healthy for you to let go of anger. Ideally you should get to the point of only being civil, aloof, business-like only, not socializing or discussing her problems, but being respectful and polite to each other, and only communicate when necessary regarding your children. She is troubled, but her problems should not be your problems from now on.

Even though I think you shouldn't focus on it, I do think that she has a greater share of the responsibility for your breakup because she cheated and because she kept running away. Married people who are having problems are not going to make their relationship better or solve anything by living separately. It was immature for her to go stay/live somewhere else unless you were abusing her physically or emotionally or frightening her (I hope you were not).

The major issue I think you should focus on for yourself (but not for a few months after you are further down the path of healing and are less traumatized and feeling happier), is to work on your anger management skills and fair fighting skills for the sake of any future relationships you have.

With both of your long-term relationships, you have described having 'huge fights' as if it is normal. A healthy marriage does not involve 'huge fights' or people screaming at each other. Fair fighting doesn't involve saying things you really don't mean, like talking about divorce or separation, or anything you will live to regret saying once the disagreement is over.

I don't think you will be good relationship material until you learn how to handle your disagreements with people without having a shouting match, insulting each other, or saying horrible things that you regret later. From your description, both you and your ex'es were equal participants in the huge fights.

If you date another women who yells, insults you, or says awful things when angry and she wants you to participate or put up with it, step away from her before it gets more serious. Think of those behaviors as a toxic red flag, and stop thinking everyone does this and it's normal, e.g. in your first post you said '[when stressed and tired, we] would argue and fuss just like every other couple'.

So far I've heard you own up to the fact you did not give your wife enough emotional affection or attention, although I certainly understand why you did not, you two rug-swept the infidelity and that is a common negative after-affect. It sounds great that you realize how important attention and affection is within relationships, the need to (forever) keep making the other person feel special, doing date nights (going out of the house somewhere nice, just the two of you, not with your buddies) no matter how long married. But I have not yet heard you own up to your own anger management issues and lack of ability to handle disagreements in a mature manner.


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## aquarius1 (May 10, 2019)

NeverGoingBack said:


> I greatly appreciate your comment. I have just been through it before. With my sons mom I was in love with her(so I thought) and we got in a huge fight one evening so she asked to be dropped off at her moms, this was back in my early 20s. She left the car all upset crying and later that night went camping with some friends and slept with a man who actually turned out to be her husband now ironically. Anyway, she begged and pleaded and like a fool I took her back as well, few yrs went by we got engaged and had a son. She was such a drama queen though and not the one for me. Beautiful as can be, I mean model material but so ugly on the inside and still is. Treats her husband the same way she always did me. Anyway, point to all this is I have been cheated on a few times in my life by women who meant a lot to me so I have learned almost to not let it tear you up inside. It does no good. It's not going to change what happened and they certainly have no remorse for it even if they cry and say they do. You don't cheat on someone you love. On a side note I used to cheat on almost all my girlfriends in my late teens so maybe it's karma I am receiving for all the hearts I broke. Anyway, maybe with time I will build the courage to start speaking out to the weak men and trying to give them an understanding that sobbing for months or years on end is only destroying themselves while the person they are sobbing about is out probably having the best sex of their life.


I'm thinking you might benefit from some counselling. I think that your picker is broken


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

kari2 said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > Not to play the blame game but she had brought it up before a few different times during heated arguments so it's not like she was perfect and caught off guard by the one time I said it. And maybe I did mean it. Maybe it's not her Im missing but the good times we used to have before she decided to cheat on me and then instead of marriage counseling as suggested go get a bf while still my wife and start ****ing him! Trust me she was far from perfect.
> ...



Sorry I have had a busy past few days and not been online much so I’m just not getting back to reading recent responses. 

No I was not physically or emotionally abusing her so I do agree with you that her continuous running away from our issues instead of staying and talking them over made it next to impossible to fix any of our issues. She would even acknowledge this as a problem and say how she needed to stop doing it because of how unhealthy it was to our marriage. I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily anger management issues I have as much as it is the need to feel to defend myself and argue back in an unhealthy way. Maybe some of my wording made me sound like an angry person but I’m actually very laid back I just feel the need to defend myself when verbally attacked. I believe some individual counseling would do some good to work on how to handle disagreements in a more mature way though, I do agree with you there.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

aquarius1 said:


> NeverGoingBack said:
> 
> 
> > I greatly appreciate your comment. I have just been through it before. With my sons mom I was in love with her(so I thought) and we got in a huge fight one evening so she asked to be dropped off at her moms, this was back in my early 20s. She left the car all upset crying and later that night went camping with some friends and slept with a man who actually turned out to be her husband now ironically. Anyway, she begged and pleaded and like a fool I took her back as well, few yrs went by we got engaged and had a son. She was such a drama queen though and not the one for me. Beautiful as can be, I mean model material but so ugly on the inside and still is. Treats her husband the same way she always did me. Anyway, point to all this is I have been cheated on a few times in my life by women who meant a lot to me so I have learned almost to not let it tear you up inside. It does no good. It's not going to change what happened and they certainly have no remorse for it even if they cry and say they do. You don't cheat on someone you love. On a side note I used to cheat on almost all my girlfriends in my late teens so maybe it's karma I am receiving for all the hearts I broke. Anyway, maybe with time I will build the courage to start speaking out to the weak men and trying to give them an understanding that sobbing for months or years on end is only destroying themselves while the person they are sobbing about is out probably having the best sex of their life.
> ...


Yea I def have counseling on my list of to do’s. You also have to remember that people don’t always show their true colors right off the bat. The arguing and cheating didn’t happen with them until well into the relationships. It’s impossible to pick a woman you know isn’t going to cheat on you or turn out way down the line to show mental issues such as my sons mom. She was great for the longest time and slowly began to show her true self. Back then I was also young and dumb and believed I could change her. Should have listened to my moms advice back then that you can’t change a person even though you so badly want to.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

So I do have to be honest and admit to everyone that I have been having an extremely difficult last couple of days. We have went pretty much completely nc except very short talks Ab days w the kids etc. I had my own bday party for my daughter which was a huge realization that this is how life is going to be now. This wasn’t just my wife but my best friend. The first person I went to for advice about everything , confided in and just thought about when I saw something fun or that she would like at the store etc. after I dropped my daughter off last night I had a breakdown I have to admit. Just thinking about the holidays coming up and how they are going to be spent single this yr. no decorating the Xmas tree and going to this awesome Xmas light display walk through at a park, having thanksgiving at her families home like I did every yr(I don’t really have any family.)


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

What makes you think you cant decorate the tree or go through the light display? Those are still things you can do with your kids, and it would probably mean a lot to them for them to do this with you. And you need to not dump your sadness on them either, keep in mind that they will look to you as to how to behave and handle all of this. It is normal to have some emotional struggles in the beginning, but this is NOT the end of your life. You are simply turning a page to a new chapter, and it may serve you well to tap into some anger over her running out like she did.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Sorry to hear, but remember only you can let someone else make you this way. Hell man make a day of it. Make plans of inviting the men who you work with and have Thanksgiving catered to your house. Get some booze and watch football for a day with them. And then for Xmas invite all the single girls you work with to help you decorate a tree or if not when you daughter come you two do it . Try something different.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

3Xnocharm said:


> What makes you think you cant decorate the tree or go through the light display? Those are still things you can do with your kids, and it would probably mean a lot to them for them to do this with you. And you need to not dump your sadness on them either, keep in mind that they will look to you as to how to behave and handle all of this. It is normal to have some emotional struggles in the beginning, but this is NOT the end of your life. You are simply turning a page to a new chapter, and it may serve you well to tap into some anger over her running out like she did.


Quote: 
and it may serve you well to tap into some anger over her running out like she did. End quote.

Correct use what you have for your benefit. Yes even anger, and justification you did did the right choice, and l do mean YOU! It will be good for the health of the children. And you to accept the new way of your life.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"Just thinking about the holidays coming up and how they are going to be spent single this yr. no decorating the Xmas tree and going to this awesome Xmas light display walk through at a park, having thanksgiving at her families home like I did every yr(I don’t really have any family.)
"

Yeah do NOT let your wife take this from you. Decorate with your kids, do the light display with them also. For thanksgiving, you need to create your OWN traditions now with your kids. Have them help make dinner -- have each of them make something special. Watch movies, etc. -- you will get past this.

VERY sorry you have to deal with all this. Your best friend really WASN'T who you thought her to be.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

NeverGoingBack said:


> ... Just thinking about the holidays coming up and how they are going to be spent single this yr. no decorating the Xmas tree and going to this awesome Xmas light display walk through at a park, having thanksgiving at her families home like I did every yr(I don’t really have any family.)


May I make a suggestion or two?

I recommend this year that you have TWO thanksgivings. For the first one, go volunteer at a homeless shelter that's having a thanksgiving meal. SHARE with people who are less fortunate, and you will soon discover just how blessed you are and you'll also make someone else feel "not so alone." For the second one, invite over anyone you know who doesn't have anywhere to go for thanksgiving. You make the turkey--they bring a dish to share if they want to come...and you will have more food than you know what to do with!

Next, for Christmas, I recommend that you think about what traditions are important to YOU (just you...all yours) and do those traditions. If there is a tradition you've always WANTED to do but couldn't because of being married, do that tradition too. And if there's a new tradition you aren't sure about but you want to try...try it! 

My first Christmas after divorce, my exH took my kids to DisneyLand (I seriously could not make this up!). Anyway, I was all alone, so I went to the Nutcracker Ballet and LOVED IT! I got super dressed up. I also took myself on a horse-drawn carriage ride...why not? I went to the candle-light Christmas Eve service, and it meant something to me. I made pancakes for myself in my pajamas, and enjoyed it! I called my family (parents and siblings), and baked cookies, and then went SLEDDING. Again...why not? My point is that I did some stuff I like that no one else does (no one in my family wanted to go to the ballet--trust me LOL...and no one thought an adult should go sledding).


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Affaircare said:


> May I make a suggestion or two?
> 
> ..and no one thought an adult should go sledding).



That was awesome..... thanks for sharing!!


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

Thank each of you for the wonderful suggestions. I most def still planned to decorate the tree and do the light display walkthrough as I always do with my kids, I just know my mind will be flooded with thoughts of my wife as I’m doing them. I ALWAYS put my children first no matter how bad I’m hurting I always try to put a smile on for them and move on like everything is ok. I’ve let them know things will be a little different just like I let my daughter know before her bday party but we still had a great time. I never had a father so I give them everything I never got to do with a dad. Also I really liked the volunteering at homeless shelter suggestion! I’ve been involved with volunteer work with the homeless in the past and that’s a great idea! Who knows maybe I’ll also just take a day or two to myself around the holidays and end up taking a spontaneous trip to somewhere like NYC and catch a broadway show and just see the city. Take sometime for just me.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

@NeverGoingBack, I read where you gave your stbx money for gas to get your daughter to school. I have no idea how it is to get a child ready in the morning for school and myself off to work. I have three kids, but I was a sahm/homeschool teacher.

That being said, I think if you were going to help her with gas money it should have been a loan, not a gift.

Secondly, I recommend you develop some strategies for preparing both you and your daughter for mornings when she has to get ready for school and you have to get ready for work. This is the life of a single parent that you can do. I've seen many people do it. It's not easy, but you can figure it out and make it work. Then you won't be in a situation of giving your ex money. That is a road you don't want to get on, because it won't end.


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

This separation is beginning to feel like a roller coaster ride that I desperately want off of. I’ve been handling the nc very well. Haven’t spoke much at all the last week or so unless it was about the kids and of importance. Well today I had off work. When she left she moved out of the kids school district so she brings them here in the morning to get on the bus, grab some things they may need inside etc etc. So she came in this morning woke me up and was acting all friendly. I was keeping it to yes/no responses and soon enough the bus came and she left. Later on in the morning she texted a question regarding our daughter and then follows up with she thought about climbing into bed this morning and then again with nevermind. Then asked if I’d like to take her out to lunch. I told her I couldn’t do that and asked why she was doing this, that everything is hard enough as is so basically why toy with my emotions. She agreed, apologized and then said she would leave me alone. She can’t though. She has let me know she misses me and that this is hard on her too but declined marriage counseling or coming back home to make it work. I finally just said today to tell me she so done for good and that she is never coming back and I will start the divorce process. I got no reply. What is it with her? Is she making sure that I still care and have feelings in case who’s she moved on to doesn’t work out? I just don’t get it anymore. She can say how bad things had got and that it didn’t even feel like home to her anymore but she can’t tell me that it’s over for good and proceed with the divorce. I keep feeling strong and that I’m moving in the right direction and then little things like this start me right back at square one. I can’t help that I am still in love with her and asked today if she was still in love with me and she said of course. God! I just don’t get this woman! Someone please chime in and give me your opinion please.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Dont fall for this song and dance. She is testing you as her safety net, and also wants to be sure that you still have feelings for her so that she can feel good about herself. She is screwing with your head and your emotions. Be direct and tell her you have no interest in hearing about her feelings or sharing yours, as she fired you as her husband. Tell her to only text or email regarding your kids. Also make it clear she is not welcome to come into your house any more when she drops the kids off like she does, and if she continues to enter that you will change the locks. This is crap that she comes into your home the way she does, she doesnt belong any more. You have to set boundaries, or she is just going to USE YOU and continue to abuse you. Dont let her.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Yeah she is trying to keep you from pulling the divorce just to string you along "in case..." for her. Don't fall for it. Follow your plan. (and yeah, what she did was just ****ty manipulation -- very hurtful).


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## NeverGoingBack (Oct 29, 2019)

3Xnocharm said:


> Dont fall for this song and dance. She is testing you as her safety net, and also wants to be sure that you still have feelings for her so that she can feel good about herself. She is screwing with your head and your emotions. Be direct and tell her you have no interest in hearing about her feelings or sharing yours, as she fired you as her husband. Tell her to only text or email regarding your kids. Also make it clear she is not welcome to come into your house any more when she drops the kids off like she does, and if she continues to enter that you will change the locks. This is crap that she comes into your home the way she does, she doesnt belong any more. You have to set boundaries, or she is just going to USE YOU and continue to abuse you. Dont let her.


My thoughts exactly! The funny thing about coming in my house is her big thing about not wanting to come back is that it started “not even feeling like her home anymore she felt like a guest” but has no problem coming in to get them ready in the morning, come into my room and wake me up etc. Usually the case is my daughter stays with me most the time so as soon as she gets there I leave for work so i have my daughters stuff laid out so my daughter can get up, get dressed and have her mom take her to the bus stop down the street or drive her to school. So sometimes her coming in unfortunately has to happen but I’m not there. However she knows my days off and today being one of them she had no reason to come in but walked right on into the home that doesn’t feel like a home. Anyway I’ve blocked her from everything. I bought my daughter a phone for her bday so there is no reason we need to speak anymore if it’s an emergency regarding the kids she can reach me on my daughters phone. I refuse to keep having my emotions screwed with. We’ve never went even a week without talking our entire relationship even when she cheated years ago so here’s to a start of a new life! My issue is I’ve been in a ltr my entire adult life(her and my sons mom) so it’s a very challenging adjustment. I’d like to be pretend I’m excited for this new chapter of life but more nervous. Also I have this awful fear I am going to be alone the rest of my life.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Well, change the locks anyhow don't you see these are the consequences of her Cheating. And she has clothes at her location for your daughter. And doing what has been recommended to your already doesn't mean you don't love you daughter. But rather, you stop being the doormat and pushover to your Cheating wife. Nothing more so don't use this as a crutch to validation to let her do willynilly anything she wants to do.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

And loving someone, doesn't give them the right to step on you.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

No contact is up to you. Deep down you know who and what she is so in essence you are keeping yourself in this.

Until you correct your behavior you'll continue on your current path.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Do not get sucked into the black hole !!!!!!!

just like @Marc878 said : correct that behavior or you'll keep yourself under her control. Don't do it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She’s the only one who knows for sure what she’s thinking but my guess is that she wants to keep you as an option. 

If you’re not interested In being an option, then file and move on.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

She DOES NOT NEED to come into the house to pick up your daughter when you are not there. I had the same arrangement with my ex husband, the days she stayed at his place, I picked her up for school shortly after he left. I NEVER went into the house to do so. She would be ready and watching for me, and when she got a cell phone, I would text when I showed up. Tell her she isnt welcome inside any more, stand up for yourself and your privacy.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

NeverGoingBack said:


> This separation is beginning to feel like a roller coaster ride that I desperately want off of. I’ve been handling the nc very well. Haven’t spoke much at all the last week or so unless it was about the kids and of importance. Well today I had off work. When she left she moved out of the kids school district so she brings them here in the morning to get on the bus, grab some things they may need inside etc etc. So she came in this morning woke me up and was acting all friendly. I was keeping it to yes/no responses and soon enough the bus came and she left. Later on in the morning she texted a question regarding our daughter and then follows up with she thought about climbing into bed this morning and then again with nevermind. Then asked if I’d like to take her out to lunch. I told her I couldn’t do that and asked why she was doing this, that everything is hard enough as is so basically why toy with my emotions. She agreed, apologized and then said she would leave me alone. She can’t though. She has let me know she misses me and that this is hard on her too but declined marriage counseling or coming back home to make it work. I finally just said today to tell me she so done for good and that she is never coming back and I will start the divorce process. I got no reply. What is it with her? Is she making sure that I still care and have feelings in case who’s she moved on to doesn’t work out? I just don’t get it anymore. She can say how bad things had got and that it didn’t even feel like home to her anymore but she can’t tell me that it’s over for good and proceed with the divorce. I keep feeling strong and that I’m moving in the right direction and then little things like this start me right back at square one. I can’t help that I am still in love with her and asked today if she was still in love with me and she said of course. God! I just don’t get this woman! Someone please chime in and give me your opinion please.


Answer to "do you want to take me out for lunch?": No, ask your boyfriend. I'm not dating you.

Answer to "I miss you": nothing.

Don't ask her to divorce you and make it final. You divorce her and make it final.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The why should not matter at this point, as you know her to be toxic. 

But, if you really want to know why she is doing it...here you go. 

She is doing this because you are rejecting her. The very same gap in her personhood/ego that led her to seek attention outside the marriage also cannot handle being rejected. 

Furthermore, the more you reject, the more she will attempt to circumvent your rejections.

She doesn't care that it causes you pain. Why? Because she likely has emotional pain/discomfort every day, and her pain killer of choice is ego kibbles. She is so busy assuaging her own pain that she lacks the ability to see, and thereby empathize, with others pain.

I'm not telling you this to feel sorry for her, although part of you should pity her.

I'm telling you that she is a leaky bucket...desperate for someone to add water to her...yet unwilling to actually fill the holes in the bottom...because that would require that she address that very same ego that led to her pain...so she continues to pursue more ways to fill it...ad infinitum.

Hurt people hurt people. Never forget it. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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