# Is it possible to get past indifference



## Claire

If you have been with someone for twenty years, and the relationship has been "OK" but never great. If you have built a life with someone and have children with them and it would be a big financial mess to leave even though you'd like to have a fresh start... If you have gotten to the point that you are so worn down from begging to be heard and hoping for things to change that your ability to be Ok with and fairly content to utter and total indifference toward that person, and the thought of any form of physical intimacy down to just a hug makes you cringe.. 

CAN YOU come out of that??

If you never had the wild lusty passionate feelings for that person to begin with.. I find it hard to believe with all the negative history in my mind .. that I could ever kindle a flame that never really burned so hot to begin with.

But I made a vow for forever, finacially a separation will be difficult, and then I have three children to consider ... who are oblivious to the fact that we are having problems.


My husband and I have had lots of discussions about this for the last few weeks, he says he realizes that I have tried to bring attention to the issues over the years and hes failed at holding up his end.. he said 2 weeks ago that he thought we belonged together and wanted to grow old with me and knew his words meant nothing, but only actions would now.. so I agreed to work on it. But for two weeks.. he made all SORTS of ridiculous mistakes regarding our agreement....if anything the last couple of weeks have just made me more indifferent toward him... Yesterday the conversation took place again.. and he seems to finally be upset and worried about it now... says today that he can't eat because he is so nervous about what I will do, says he understands my frustration.....

I don't want anyone to be in pain or upset, I want... in theory... to be in love with my husband.. I want my family in tact... But when you cringe when he touches you and like the house better when he just isn't around... IS IT POSSIBLE to make yourself feel something your gut feels so opposite about?

My head tells me I am supposed to make this work.. would be so much EASIER for everyone.. even easier for me... from a financial standopoint only though... 

Has ANYONE ever.... or read about... someone having these sorts of feelings about their husband for so long ever Kindled a flame back.. notice I do not say re-kindle.... and saved a marriage.. genuinely?


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## Sprite

Oh boy! I am in your shoes, are you my twin? lol

I can totaly relate to what you are going through. I am so sorry I do not offer any answers because I struggle with it myself everyday. I have been married for 20 years also, 2 years ago I was ready to call it quits, and told him so. Since then he has done everything in his power to be a better man, and he is...but...I have not been able to find that "in love" with you feeling for him still. I try to make myself, but you can not make yourself love someone that way.

We have 2 boys, 15 and 17, and I made a vow to myself years ago that I would never leave them the way my mother, then eventually father left me. I vowed to give them the childhood and life lessons I never got as a kid. 

I would like to believe that love can be found again...I am a romantic...but in reality, sometimes its too little too late. There are moments when I do feel something more for my husband, but it never stays with me. I some times wonder if it is him that I am having the feelings for, or the idea of what he just did to make me feel that way.

My head and my heart struggle with each other and battle each other every day. My heart says to stay because of my kids and that I made vows which i take seriously...my head says to guard myself and dont ever let myself get hurt again. Its a vicious cycle and I have not been able to figure it out.

I wish I could offer you some great words of wisdom, but I have none. All I can do is let you know that you are not alone. You are not the only one who feels this. You are not the only one that is looking for answers. Those answers have to come from within. I sometimes wish I had an angel that would just come down and tell me what to do. Tell me, if I do this....that will happen in 5 years. OR if I do that....this is what will happen in 5 years. I want a crystal ball!

I wish you the best of luck and all the patience you can muster to figure this out within yourself!


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## D8zed

Looks like I'm another member of the "can't get past indifference" family. I too apologize for not being able to offer the OP an answer but I am looking forward to others' replies.

My wife and I have been married 23+ years and have 2 children - S19, D16. We have been attending individual counseling sessions and will be meeting as a couple next week. I know one of the questions I/we will be asked is something along the lines of:

- Do you still love your spouse, or
- Are you still committed to the marriage, or
- Do you still have a spark for your spouse.

My wife has stated that she is willing to do whatever is necessary to keep the marriage intact. I wished I felt the same but unfortunately, I do not.

I do not have any emotional attachment to my spouse at this point. Yes, I "care" about her because she's the mother of my children and because we have a history together but it's hard to even imagine holding her with any feelings of "love".

We have not had any sexual relations in over 5 years so I'm sure that has caused some of the emotional detachment. But honestly, at this point I don't have any sexual desires for her anymore. Can they be rekindled? I doubt it.


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## Claire

well, I am sorry that you all are in this place with me...it is a sad feeling.

My head tells me... that when he says he wants to work it out and he will change and we are meant to be together and he SOUNDS like he means it...that I should... and have... said, ok we can work on it.

but my gut...it just is dead on the topic
I have no feelings for him, and have felt this way for a few years now... in this last year, I have analyzed my feelings to death...How do you give it your all to work on it..when you just DON"T FEEL IT. But know it would be better if you could!


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## D8zed

Claire said:


> ...that I should... and have... said, ok we can work on it.
> 
> but my gut...it just is dead on the topic
> I have no feelings for him, and have felt this way for a few years now... in this last year, I have analyzed my feelings to death...How do you give it your all to work on it..when you just DON"T FEEL IT. But know it would be better if you could!


I probably beat myself up over this very issue everyday. I feel sooo selfish and feel sooo bad for the kids. Plus, I HATE hurting people. 

I am trying to be better at making decisions based on what *I* want and need. After all, if YOU don't take care of your needs, then who will?

But I have a long way to go and I have a big counseling session staring me in the face in the near future. I better learn quickly.


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## sisters359

I have heard that you may "come back" from indifference IF both you work hard at it. But, no one says it is "guaranteed" or could even tell me if it was "likely" or just "possible." Also, I could not find anyone who said they came back from sexual distaste for their spouse. And finally, I think it is obviously illogical to try to "rekindle" something if it was never there in the first place. 

These were my reasons for telling my husband our marriage was over. I have never had to do anything harder, but I did it. I was really concerned I'd cheat, and that would be so much worse. So I bit the bullet and did it. It's only been a couple of months, but I know it was the right decision. 

I am not recommending any course of action. Just be sure you are willing to commit one way or the other--achieving happiness together, or alone. That will make it easier--if you know the goal is HAPPINESS, and not just "settling." Good luck to all of you, whatever you do.


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## Claire

D8zed said:


> I probably beat myself up over this very issue everyday. I feel sooo selfish and feel sooo bad for the kids. Plus, I HATE hurting people.
> 
> I am trying to be better at making decisions based on what *I* want and need. After all, if YOU don't take care of your needs, then who will?
> 
> But I have a long way to go and I have a big counseling session staring me in the face in the near future. I better learn quickly.


Please keep me posted on how your counseling session goes, have you in your private sessions gotten any feedback on what to do when you feel like this?



Sister... Do you have kids? How long were you married and were/are finances an issue for you in terms of going out on your own? I'd be curious to know how you are handling all of that right now? this is really the part that makes me hesitant the most to pull the trigger.


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## sisters359

We have 3 children, 19, 11, and 7. Married 21 years, together about 24. I have a job and would rather be "poor" than continue as I have. A small apartment that is just enough for me and the kids on my weeks is all I need. At least it will be clean.


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## Claire

sisters359 said:


> We have 3 children, 19, 11, and 7. Married 21 years, together about 24. I have a job and would rather be "poor" than continue as I have. A small apartment that is just enough for me and the kids on my weeks is all I need. At least it will be clean.


I hear you!... I feel the same way, the only thing that makes me back down on that is that financially,it will impact my kids quality of life... so while "I" may not mind the scaling back, and they would get used to it, this is where it seems a little selfish of me to impose that on them for MY happiness.... God, so much to mentally work through!


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## D8zed

Claire said:


> Please keep me posted on how your counseling session goes, have you in your private sessions gotten any feedback on what to do when you feel like this?


Claire...

No, I haven't gotten any feedback from the therapist on these feelings. Sorry I can't offer more.

I had a somewhat interesting day yesterday related to this 'indifference issue'. I recently started reading 'The Five Love Languages'. As I was reading it yesterday and seeing some of my relationship issues in it, I began to think "Maybe I should go full bore, 100% into rebuilding this marriage. Figure out her love language and work on it every single day".

By the time I turned the lights off last night, I was thinking "who am I kidding". :sleeping:


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## MarkTwain

D8zed said:


> By the time I turned the lights off last night, I was thinking "who am I kidding". :sleeping:


Not me, that's for sure. If you're not going to give it 100% why even bother?


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## Claire

yeah, I feel the same way you do and MarkTwain..

I do have a question though, and I can't seem to find an answer, or how to google it properly....

Ok, so we have all these surrounding issues in the marriage to deal with .. but bottom line is, those have made me PHYSICALLY not attracted to him. Sex is VERY important to him and he is VERY not happy that I am not a willing participant anymore. He is wanting to work on the marriage, but the main thing he focuses on is the intamacy and touching...wanting to hug me and kiss me.... I am sorry, I am just so UTTERLY turned off by him, and now that it is festering me,.. even the most innocent and well meaning touches or hugs make my skin crawl. 

Do I EXPLAIN THIS TO HIM???, you read so much about how you must be HONEST in your relationship, but just HOW honest?

I do not think there is anything I can say when it comes to that that would sound nice. I hate the way he kisses, I have never liked it and therefore, beyond a peck on the cheek or mouth, I can say that I have not been passionately kissed in YEARS... I just don't think, even if we work out a scenario where we can be partners and stay together for the children, that I will be able to get past the ICK factor that I feel when he comes near me. And I'm really stumped as to how to explain/ or not this to him.


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## Sufficiently Breathless

I feel the same way about my H. Any time he tuoches me it makes my skin crawl. I can't even sleep in the same bed with him let alone think of having sex! 

Am curious to hear replies to this.. should you be that brutally honest??


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## D8zed

Claire...

This is good - we are on opposite sides of the issue so this should be an interesting discussion.

So I'm the H in a marriage that has not had any intimacy in 5+ years. It's not due to me not wanting sex because I DO! However, my W says "no sex until I feel close to you". 

According to my W, she will start feeling close to me if I start paying her attention - spending time together, holding hands, a goodnight kiss, a hug. I understand that women (in general) must feel an emotional attachment before they can have/enjoy sex. Whereas men are more driven by the physical aspects of sex.

Question for you - If you could start with a blank slate and your H did all the things I mentioned above, would you feel close to him? Would you feel close enough to him to kiss, hug, and have sex?

I did some searching and found the following on another forum. Not sure if it helps you any or not. Bottom line - there is no easy or perfect way to tell someone. Here it is:



> I commend you for being able to be honest with your husband. Even if it hurts him, he SHOULD know this. You burying it and letting it affect your marriage would hurt him eventually MORE when he finds out how long you've felt that way. I know from personal experience that when I feel something deeply, but consider my feelings "selfish" or "mean" or know that exposing them would hurt another person's feelings and I keep them to myself or try to "change" or "ignore" them, it ALWAYS hurts me more, and that person more in the long run. My anger, resentment, or emotional detachment to "protect" someone else ALWAYS backfires and ends up making MORE of a mess than it might have initially. Be true to yourself, but be true to a person who has integrity, is forgiving and accepting, and who has a rational and healthy reason for feeling the way she does.
> 
> I wish you all the best too...living a lie is the most painful and detrimental thing you can do to yourself, your children, AND your spouse.


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## Claire

I have looked at him often lately... not just him physically, but him as the person he is and thought to myself...Ok, lets forget the history... you are single, you are meeting this person for the first time, you know nothing about him and he strikes up a conversation with you and asks if you'd like to go out to dinner...

I would not go. 

So, I guess that answers the question... if I wouldn't even take him up on dinner if he had a totally clean slate, I wouldn't find myself attracted to him to want sex. I was never really physically attracted to him, can remember sitting in a car on our first date and watching him go into a convenience store thinking..mmmm, not sure about this... don't get me wrong he is not an unnatractive person, he is one of those people that you either find attractive or you don't.. I'm not sure how to explain what I am saying.. On an elevated level...take someone like Tom Cruise.. most people in general are going to agree that he is a nice looking man regardless of what you think of him. Then you take someone like hmmm, lol, my mind is going blank... Mick Jagger... some women find him TOTALLY good looking and Some find him DOWN RIGHT STRANGE looking and unattractive. Did that make sense? Something quirky about him that is either a turn on or off,...not really a middle ground thing.

I gave him a shot back then b/c I was dating no one, we knew alot of the same people, he met all the other criteria I had in my mind for a mate (or so I thought!)... it has just been a pretty disappointing ride at this point, so the physical attraction really doesn't have a chance at this point.

For a while, I argued the point your wife is arguing... b/c he didn't do any of what you are talking about... but it has become clear to me that isn't the problem. There is JUST NO CHEMISTRY... From MY end...he says the opposite.


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## D8zed

Claire,

Sounds like you feel pretty strongly about your lack of feelings for H so I suppose we're back to your original question:



> Has ANYONE ever.... or read about... someone having these sorts of feelings about their husband for so long ever Kindled a flame back.. notice I do not say re-kindle.... and saved a marriage.. genuinely?


I don't want to speak for anyone but I would guess there are couples that have successfully rekindled their relationship. However, I imagine there were "smoldering embers of love/attraction" in which the couple could blow into (through acts of love and kindness) and start the flame burning again.

If the fire is completely burned out, then it's dead. Gone. Done.

Complicating the matter, as you and I both know, is a situation in which the embers are burned out on one side and the other half is still smoldering. We have to decide either to (A) hope our flame will be kindled or rekindled by the other half, or (B) pour water on the smoldering side.

If we choose 'B', then we're faced with a very difficult, hurtful conversation.

Are you ready to have that conversation?


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## Claire

Well, that "conversation" got started a few weeks ago. It had been eating me away for several months if not years and I just kept pushing it down. A few weeks ago he brought up the fact that he knew we had grown apart.. he said he knew that I had tried over the years to bring attention to that and that he was largely to blame for not taking it seriously and do something about it. He clames he loves and adores me and wants to grow old with me,... and that he will do whatever it takes to make it right... yet when I mention counseling he said we didn't need it, he knew what went wrong and what he needed to do. He asked me if I loved him, and I told him that I would always love him because he is my family, but as far as loving him as a wife, that I that had grown from begging and pleading over the years to address the issues, to resentment..to now complete and utter indifference, and I didn't know if it was too late or not. He then said, that he knew his words meant nothing and that his actions would speak for themselves.... over the course of the next two weeks he made pathetic attempts at making things better, was made derogatory comments to me, vulgar sexual inuendo and then pulled a drunken stupor that my children witnessed.... now no, he is not an alcholic that gets like that often, but it is often enough that my children ages 6,9,10 now recognize as "daddy is drunk"...that set me off so bad on Saturday night I couldn't see straight by Monday. He realized sunday that he had made a BAD mistake and apolgized through then nose. I told him if ONE MORE sexual comment came out of his mouth in the near future I was out.... that like he had said a couple of weeks before, he knew we needed to be friends first then date some and then maybe fall back in love.. so to me right now is ridiculous that he would feel it appropriate to make any comments or "JOKES" as he likes to tell me "ease up, just a joke"...


I feel like I HAVE to make an effort at this, as my friend so bluntly put it to me a few minutes ago...
DON"T do anything now, you have three kids,...you need to wait til one is able to drive to help you!, and then all your friends will have to take sides, and then your social life will be different and if you think you are going to go out and find a man that is any different you are wrong, and chances are you won't find anyone else and then you are stuck alone and what about money? You can't afford to support yourself.... 

sigh.


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## D8zed

First, try to not pay any attention to advice from "friends" unless they're trained/qualified to offer it. They are only providing opinions based on their perspective and they may have emotional baggage from their own past problems that clouds their thinking.

So it sounds to me like you're pretty much done with this marriage. Is that true? If not, where are you right now? 

If everything was 'easy' and everyone you knew gave you their approval, what would you do?


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## Claire

If everything was easy... 

By that meaning, that money was not an issue and my kids would be ok with it ?? what would I do?

I'd leave.

As far as what my friends think, that is really not my concern. She even said herself that as bad as she hated what I was going through part of what had her upset was how me leaving him was how it would affect HER social life.. at least she is honest.

But it isn't that easy is it. Money is a real issue, it is difficult enough these days to live a comfortable life with us both helping, but to have to support two house holds, along with the emotional baggage and tug o war with the kids.. that makes you have to stop and think, which is worse?

He doesn't want me to go anywhere, but honestly I dont' think it has anything to do with his undying love for me.. he just doesn't care for conflict and the pain in the ass it will be to divorce....he even admitted when I said I felt indifference toward him that he felt the same..... I honestly believe he would live his life just as we have been doing forever so long as things were calm... but I've also been giving in to his "booty calls".. so really life for him was all about sports, naps, and a quickie here and there... now that the sex is off the table, I dont know how long he'll still sing the tune that he wants ME.

Still.. the "indifference" is on the table, but with just indifference there was still the glimmer that a random roll in the hay was possible. ... now my skin cringes at the thought, how much does he need to be told... I would think it could be really a terrrible blow to be told that you make someone skin crawl at the thought of you touching them. ... and I don't want to hurt him. 

Sorry, I know I have shoved more than one question in this post.


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## D8zed

Okay...so I heard one big issue from your last post: money. But I'm confused about the issues of "indifference" and "sexual relations". 

You seem to mention "indifference" and you said you two have already talked about it. But at the end of your post, you mention it being difficult to tell someone they make your skin crawl.

Does that mean you haven't told H there will not be anymore sexual relations? Is that the difficult conversation?


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## Claire

I have felt indifferent for quite a while.. but was able to give into the sexual requests just to keep the peace. I have told him I do NOT want it... he has said he will respect that. From the way it was spoken, it seems that he will respect that FOR NOW... but thinks that once we work through the basic issues then I should not have an issue with it. 

The problem is now.. that is NOT how "I" see it.. that indifference has now turned to stomach turning at the thought... I feel indifferent to him on all other accounts, but my gut screams NO at the thought of anything remotely intimate. ... So when he feels that he's been patient and wants to know when that can be put back on the table... 

what do I tell him? The truth? or just buy more time and say I'm not ready without being so blunt.


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## Sufficiently Breathless

Really if you want out of the marriage... sitting down and saying, "I have no physical attraction to you. In fact your touch makes my skin crawl" would definatly seal the deal.. I mean how can they argue to fix that?


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## Claire

well, they can't.... 

And b/c of all the other issues that aren't so easy... Money/kids... and the history and the vows, there is a part of me that feels I OWE it to try to make it work... and wish I could make it work. But that brings me back to my original question. Am I fooling myself to think it could possibly ever be different when I have gotten to this point of feeling that way when he is near me?

And while we are trying to take the time to feel this out and see if there is a way to make it work.. when the sex issue comes back up.. AND IT WILL COME BACK UP, he is almost obsessed with it now that i won't give it.. how do I handle that, b/c like you just said..you say that to someone.. and it will seal the deal regardless of whether I want to try to make it work.


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## Sufficiently Breathless

well Claire honestly.. sometimes.. you just don't feel it... yanno?

doesnt mean theres anything wrong with either of you.. it just isnt there. 

There wasn't a spark of it before? because I mean there must have been, to have been married. It seems to me though, that you have never had those feelings for him.. and you might not ever. In a situation like that.. I don't think you can all of a sudden wake up one day and say "ok i'm ready for you now" and things will magically be better. Wanting to make it work, and actually making it work are two very different things. 

Instead of thinking about how you OWE it to him and your family to make it work.. think of it as how you OWE it to yourself to be happy. Get honest with YOURSELF first, before you open up a can of worms with him. It's all inside you doll, do you think you honestly can get past this?


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## D8zed

But it's your body and YOU get to decide when you want to be sexually intimate and with whom. I would simply say what my W says to me: "I do not feel close to you and until I do, I do not want to have sex. It makes me feel ____". (Fill in the blank. My W says it makes her feel like a sl__t.)

This isn't a hurtful statement. It's the truth. And you've already told him you feel indifferent and he said the same at one point so there really isn't any possibility of feeling close enough to have sex in the future.

This hopefully will allow you to co-exist while you work through the other things that are holding you back:

1. Your feelings of commitment to your vows.
2. Money
3. Kids

Related to #1 above, my W says the same thing. I think you and W should really look hard at that feeling. What is based on? Religious beliefs? Your upbringing? The kids?

Do you feel YOU have a right to find happiness?


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## Claire

I think I am to a point that no, I can not get past how I feel about the intimate situation.

I think I am to a point where, I COULD in theory if he were to agree to it, live as friends and roommates and coparent.. but that isn't realistic unless both people feel that way. If he would say to me,...sex isn't an issue, I can live without it... I'd feel the BIGGEST SENSE OF RELIEF. I'm sure most wives have at at some if not many points in their marriages, given in to the mans requests to get him off thier backs.... I've spent YEARS doing this, never has it been satisfying for me. I'm tired of that, but in the last couple of months, there was one time I gave in when I didn't want to and something in me snapped... I went to the bathroom and felt the need to shower off and cry. ...sorry, but when something goes broken like that, I just don't see how it can go back... but maybe it's too fresh, and maybe if he really does change. ??..... there is just so much more at stake here than weather I can suck it up and give into a quickie...

I'm too young to feel this way, I should enjoy that part of my life. But the prospects of going out and dating again.. sigh.


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## D8zed

> but maybe it's too fresh, and maybe if he really does change. ??


Hold on! That makes it sound like you could be happy if he really did change. That's different from what you've been saying. Which is it?


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## Sufficiently Breathless

I have a rather personal question to ask in regards to sex... 

Is your H the only one you have been with? And have you ever reached orgasm with him? Have you ever orgasmed with others?

The only reason I ask, because I am in a simular boat.. well kind of. I used to be physically attracted to my H, but with his abusive nature and other things happening, I am repulsed by him now. But before I never reached orgasm with him, basically he is selfish in bed, its all about him getting off. 

But I have had successful orgasms with others. Its a lot about the emotional connection for us women, when thats gone its hard to connect sexually.

But knowing that I can have orgasms with others, and have that emotional and physical connection with someone else, does not make me for one minute want to stay and just be roommates and coparents. I have a chance at happiness and LIFE outside of this marriage and I wanna GRAB IT! 

I'm in no way trying to talk you to divorce. But I do want you to find some happiness for YOU. I mean really, if you don't, who will??


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## D8zed

> I'm in no way trying to talk you to divorce. But I do want you to find some happiness for YOU. I mean really, if you don't, who will??


DING, DING, DING....We have a winner! I just wish I could do that as well.


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## Sufficiently Breathless

D8zed said:


> DING, DING, DING....We have a winner! I just wish I could do that as well.



I know I should practice what I preach too.. It's so much easier to tell someone what you would do (or think you would do) than actually do it yourself. Change is scary.. for everyone.


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## D8zed

Sufficiently Breathless said:


> I know I should practice what I preach too.. It's so much easier to tell someone what you would do (or think you would do) than actually do it yourself. Change is scary.. for everyone.


So true. I wish I could hire an agent to accompany me to my next counseling session. I could tell them what to say and let them do all the dirty work.


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## Claire

D8zed said:


> Hold on! That makes it sound like you could be happy if he really did change. That's different from what you've been saying. Which is it?


no, that isn't saying something different.. I still stand by what I feel. But the logical side of me says I should give it every possible chance because it is my MARRIAGE and a 20 year relationship. In my heart of hearts, I dont' believe he is capable of change, b/c he has said he would a zillion times and never come through.. but of course this time he says it will be different... and no, I stand by the statement, that if I were to meet him as a single person today, he is not someone I would want to date and would not date him... but that isn't the case.. the case is HE IS my husband, and if there is any chance that it could be rectified, should I not try?... but don't really see how it could change honestly. But I suppose there is always a small chance anything could happen.


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## Claire

Sufficiently Breathless said:


> I have a rather personal question to ask in regards to sex...
> 
> Is your H the only one you have been with? And have you ever reached orgasm with him? Have you ever orgasmed with others?
> 
> The only reason I ask, because I am in a simular boat.. well kind of. I used to be physically attracted to my H, but with his abusive nature and other things happening, I am repulsed by him now. But before I never reached orgasm with him, basically he is selfish in bed, its all about him getting off.
> 
> But I have had successful orgasms with others. Its a lot about the emotional connection for us women, when thats gone its hard to connect sexually.
> 
> But knowing that I can have orgasms with others, and have that emotional and physical connection with someone else, does not make me for one minute want to stay and just be roommates and coparents. I have a chance at happiness and LIFE outside of this marriage and I wanna GRAB IT!
> 
> I'm in no way trying to talk you to divorce. But I do want you to find some happiness for YOU. I mean really, if you don't, who will??



Orgasms are non existent with him... and were very rare with other partners..... the difference is, with old partners, even if there weren't orgasms attached, there was attraction and making out that made my heart race...I LOVE a good kisser... we are completely incompatible kissers, haven't had a good kiss in 20 years. ... for that matter haven't really had but a hand full of kisses PERIOD in 20 years... besides the basic see you later peck.


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## D8zed

Claire,

Based on your last post, I'd recommend two things and keep in mind this is totally my opinion:

1. Read 'The 5 Love Languages'.
2. See a marriage counselor.


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## Claire

ok...I know, I have these exact same feelings... 

But I guess another question to pose, is .... when the relationship is one sided as this one is, and he likes the status quo, and you do not, but the basic living realities could potentially be a nightmare.. talking money, custody, single parenting, the potential that you may not ever meet anyone else and end up alone....

Does keeping it simple and just dealing with it ever trump... the potential alternative? 

If I won the lottery tomorrow, and knew that I could support myself and hire the necessary help for my kids when I wasn't able to do what needs to be done.... I'd be filing papers in the morning in search of that possiblity of happiness...


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## D8zed

Claire said:


> If I won the lottery tomorrow, and knew that I could support myself and hire the necessary help for my kids when I wasn't able to do what needs to be done.... I'd be filing papers in the morning in search of that possiblity of happiness...


Okay, but that conflicts with what you said earlier:



> the case is HE IS my husband, and if there is any chance that it could be rectified, should I not try?


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## Claire

yes you are right that does sound conflicting...

but I do not mean for it to be.. what I mean is this, at this point, I am so unhappy that I would love to think I could leave and have an easy life free to go out and find a great person that is compatible to who I am and me to him.

When I say he is my husband and should I try... well, that is what society has taught me, but in my mind, I feel I've spent 20 years trying and if I had a viable out..I'd sprint out without feeling like I didn't try hard enough.. 

But the facts are I do NOT have an easy route out, and ok.. I could move out and live on pork n beans and be ok I suppose.. but it wouldn't just affect me.. It would also affect the quality of life of my children as well, and I would do anything for my children.. so if trying to give one more chance at marriage to their father and learning to live with it in hopes that there is a glimmer of a chance that it could work..then, I owe it to them to try. ... and what if there isn't a pot of gold at the end of my rainbow? will I regret giving up a life of semi comfort and mediocrity for poor and alone...?? Of course, there is just as much if not more of a chance I will find happiness too.

Doesn't change how I feel about him right this minute.


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## Sufficiently Breathless

I know where your sitting hun.. I have no job, no way to support my kids, no prospect of a significant other in the near future (not sure i want one anyway). But I can't take the anguish and pain I'm dealt every day by staying anymore. Granted our situations might be somewhat different... My H is emotionally abusive and it's driving me to the brink of insanity. 

At this point in my relationship I know I would rather be alone forever, and moderatly happy, then with him and completely unhappy and lonely. 

My mother, when I first told her 2 years ago I was thinking of leaving my H, and about his sex addiction, she said to me, "can't you just suck it up and deal with it?" 

I just remember feeling bitter and angry towards her, thinking why would she want me to be so unhappy forever??? I guess her and I live in two different era's. But why would you want to be unhappy just for the convenience?

But I know I'm going to leave my H, and soon. I won't have an easy time of supporting my kids, as my H hasn't allowed me to work, he enjoyes having me home to care for everything. But there is help out there. You can get housing, you can get help from the county or state.. you can lean on friends and family for support if needed. And of course there will be child support. 

I just know I would rather end up as the "cat lady".. than stay any longer.

Ok now that I just hijacked your post and probably not helped you in any way.. I'll go lol


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## Sufficiently Breathless

Don't you owe it to your children to see to happy grown adults? I know I wouldn't want my kids thinking its normal to live in a marriage where mommy and daddy dont really love each other.

I think your kids would benefit more from seeing you happy, than anything else. Just my 2 cents.. probably not worth even that lol


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## Claire

D8zed? did you just remove a reply? I was about to answer it..you gave me a list of 3 things..one being to really analyze why I feel committed to stay in the marriage, or something to that effect....

No not religion.. more out of my own, I don't like to give up or quit on something and it makes me feel sort of like a failure after putting so many years into it. But I also know, i am like an open book, and there is not one thought that crosses my mind that doesn't come out of my mouth and he agrees....so I know for a fact that there was no room for him to say he didn't KNOW what I wanted.

Breathless... do we have the same mother? long about the first of the year, I told her i was having a really hard time and that I just hated the sex part....you k now what she told me?

you have three kids, trust me it sucks being a single parent, at least he helps you with the kids and helps with the bills, think of it as a job...something mindless like brushing your teeth..just something you have to do..and get it over with.

PFFFFFT.


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## Sufficiently Breathless

oh lord.. I think we do have the same mom!!! 

you know if you do leave things arent going to be easy, at least at first. But be honest with yourself.. i think the reason you aren't leaving are the same reasons i had for staying for so long... 

FEAR.. of being along.. of something new and different... of failing. oh and of eating canned beans forever!!! 

WE ARE WOMEN.. we don't need to stay unhappily married! WE CAN CONQUER ANYTHING!!! 

you owe it to your babies.. and yourself.. to be HAPPY.. even if there is just a faint glimmer of that possibility. 

If you do decide to stay with him.. kudos to you.. I suggest a sex therapist.. and a good one! lol


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## MarkTwain

Claire said:


> yeah, I feel the same way you do and MarkTwain..
> 
> I do have a question though, and I can't seem to find an answer, or how to google it properly....
> 
> Ok, so we have all these surrounding issues in the marriage to deal with .. but bottom line is, those have made me PHYSICALLY not attracted to him. Sex is VERY important to him and he is VERY not happy that I am not a willing participant anymore. He is wanting to work on the marriage, but the main thing he focuses on is the intamacy and touching...wanting to hug me and kiss me.... I am sorry, I am just so UTTERLY turned off by him, and now that it is festering me,.. even the most innocent and well meaning touches or hugs make my skin crawl.
> 
> Do I EXPLAIN THIS TO HIM???, you read so much about how you must be HONEST in your relationship, but just HOW honest?
> 
> I do not think there is anything I can say when it comes to that that would sound nice. I hate the way he kisses, I have never liked it and therefore, beyond a peck on the cheek or mouth, I can say that I have not been passionately kissed in YEARS... I just don't think, even if we work out a scenario where we can be partners and stay together for the children, that I will be able to get past the ICK factor that I feel when he comes near me. And I'm really stumped as to how to explain/ or not this to him.


Yes, I think you should be totally honest with him. I can tell you this. If my wife ever told me that, I would have left within weeks - possibly seconds. So by telling him this, it might just set him free.


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## Claire

The last few days have been calm, and we have gotten along fine. But the truth of the matter is we have seen very little of each other as he has worked a little late, and I go to bed early. So makes it pretty easy. When I speak to him on the phone his tone of voice is completely normal as if not a thing in the world has taken place.. but the one thing he IS doing that is making me uncomfortable is wanting to hug and kiss in the morning and night... now, I realize this is normal behavior between a husband and wife and a therapist would probably recommend it... but really, has only been a few days since our last blow up and me asking him to give me space... the night before last I got up and told him good night and he said... "well aren't you going to come give me a kiss?".. my gut turned.. so, my mind had a small tug o war and I decided to walk over and give him a kiss on the cheek..but he puckered up, and while I was approaching him made this look of disbelief that I would dare go without doing that... 

What does he NOT get? and the look on his face to me... is his typical subtle way of telling me "you are the wrong one" 

Then last night, he his lying on the bed and as I pass through the room to go to sleep I tell him good night, ( we sleep in separate rooms) he motions me to come to him.. (again that internal gut thing activated) but I walked over for the sake of keeping the peace and he gives me this groping hug from the bed and kissed... of course aiming for the mouth again. (keep in mind, we have been cheek kissers for years, so this aim for the mouth thing is something that is being done purposely)

I feel like, his expectations are.. regardless of the fact that he has semi agreed to the no sex for now..that we should still be affectionate, which I do not understand WHY he feels this way when I have been so utterly blunt about telling him we need to be FRIENDS first, THEN DATE, then if it forms..lovers...(this was actually his description). I could go along with a hug i think, but the wanting to give me a kiss on the mouth is just a step to far.. and makes me feel like he is being disrespectful of my wishes... or just flat out not listening to me.


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## MarkTwain

Claire said:


> I do not understand WHY he feels this way when I have been so utterly blunt about telling him we need to be FRIENDS first, THEN DATE, then if it forms..lovers...(this was actually his description). I could go along with a hug i think, but the wanting to give me a kiss on the mouth is just a step to far.. and makes me feel like he is being disrespectful of my wishes... or just flat out not listening to me.


Why let him build up expectations. You have already stated that you would prefer never to have sex with him again, so surly say such things as " FRIENDS first, THEN DATE", are misleading.


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## Claire

No Mark, those were HIS words... which led me to believe that he understood clearly that I didnt' even see him as a friend.


Which is why it annoys me that he would think it appropriate to force the issue of cuddly hugs and kisses.

You know, that Second big discussion was on Tuesday... It is now friday..and this touchy feely kissy thing has been going on since wednesday.. Also last weekend, I told him that I had read the book "too good to leave, too bad to stay" and that since he didn't feel that counseling was necessary, that I would like for him to please read the book, and really answer the questions in the book... he agreed..He had all day that day and never touched the book. Monday morning he read the first chapter and proudly announced it. The next morning he read the second chapter.. and proudly announced it, to let me know he was reading it.. of course all that went through my mind was,..I was so torn up over what was going on that I read that book in one day trying to figure out what to do, and he wants pats on the back for taking 10 minutes to read one chapter a day?... it is now Friday and there is no evidence that he has taken any time to read anymore. Yet there is history on the computer showing he spent a few hours each night after I went to bed reading up on sports and looking at girls in hooters looking outfits.

Another thing that is one of the big issues that has contributed to my ill will toward him are his broken promises from the big to small.. on sunday, I pointed out that he had promised over a week ago to make a phone call for me.... and hadn't done it, just proving my points..here it is five days later..and of course it hasn't been done... but he wants me to smile and hug and kiss him in the mouth upon waking and going to bed?


He has asked me to go on a date lunch with him today and I have agreed. I just don't know what to say. I don't know if I should just lie low and try to make it enjoyable and just let a little time pan things out the way they are going to happen (because I am NOT prepared to separate yet..I have GOT to get my finances in order!) or point out that he is STILL not holding up the issues at hand.


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## MarkTwain

Claire-
What is it that you resent about him most - not just now, but long term?


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## Claire

I resent the fact that he never sees what I ask of him as important.

I resent the fact that I have told him over and over and over again that I do not like this town we live in and he dismisses it.

I resent the fact that he flat out ignores me when I speak and more often than not just doesn't hear a word I say.

I resent the fact that he quite a 6 figure salary when I had two infants without asking me how I felt about it first.

I resent the fact that the following 9 mos we ran through a large part of our savings b/c he was jobless...b/c he was "taking his time to find the right thing" 

I resent the fact that I was supportive of him making a total career move change with him explaining to me that it was straight commission and the following 5 years were going to be hard financially and with him working lots of late nights..but easy street should follow at that mark based on talking to so many others in the field... only for it to be 8 years later, and he has yet to work even ONE 40 hour week to try to get to easy street and we are still scraping by... There is just no excuse in it.

I resent the fact that he continually promises me he will do things... Such as make that phone call for me and fix the faucet and two weeks later they are still not done, which forces me to have to ask again, which in turn gives him the right to say I am a nag.

I resent the fact that for 20 years, MY sexual needs have NEVER been addressed, a life of unfullifilling wham bam thank you mams and as I start pulling away, instead of trying to make it better I a met with the constant rude comments and reminders of how long it has been for him. 

I resent the fact that he has shown time and again that he is incapable of drinking alcohol (beer is ok) without his whole personality changing and making a fool of himself and just being obnoxious to be around.... He agrees it is embarrassing and says he won't do it, yet happens often enough that my grade school kids respond by saying "dad is drunk again"

I resent the fact that when I got pregnant with our first child and lost it in the hospital... he sat in the waiting room with my best friend.. who I later found out they were having an affair.

I resent that I have at least once or twice a year said.. PLEASE address these things!!!... we have Nothing in common..if we don't do something about it.. we are doomed.. and he agrees but nothing changes...

do I need to say more?


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## D8zed

Claire, I think you REALLY need to get out of this relationship. I hope you're starting to look into the financial aspects so you can move on.

Have you researched how much child support you may be entitled to? If not, this might give you an idea:

Child Support Calculators


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## Sufficiently Breathless

I agree with D8zed, things aren't going to get better, and you know it girl!!! 

I have no income.. zero.. the money I rely on is the money he brings home every two weeks. We are barely scraping by as well, and he NEVER gives me the money I need to pay bills and keep our utilities on.... 

I have looked into help.. The state I live in has funding for housing aide, food stamps, welfare, and medicaid. I figure to get out, if I have to take advantage of these state benefits, just until I get on my feet and find a job of my own, i'm going to use them. That's what they are there for! Look into your state aide.. I'm sure you can find something to help you out at least for now.

I finally realized things in my home aren't going to get any better, I need to get out, just to save our sanity. It isn't normal for the children to see our marriages the way they are. And it isn't right for us to sacrifice everything for us to try and stick it out. YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT!! 

So.. start investigating ways for you to get out, and ways to be happy. I feel so much better now that I actually see a way out.. I hope you will get there too.


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## TiredLady

Never realized how many people's stories mirror my own life! 

I am so checked out of my marriage. The only thing that is keeping me in it are my children S6 D2. We separated for a few months last year and I am still haunted by the images of my children screaming and crying during drop off and pickups...when ever my H and I argue my son shows immediate anxiety and asks why are you speaking that way? what's happening? Are you leaving? And this KILLS me inside.

We've been married for 9 years and since day one we've had problems and oh so much drama. I'm just plain tired, frustrated and resentful for so much. He seems to be at the same place if not heading there. We both just don't want to see the children suffer.

I don't see any postings that are hopeful...getting past indifference must be as easy as building the Egyptian Pyramids!


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## unhappy at home

Claire....wow, reading your posts is like reading my journal! I am in the same place as you, including trying to get my husband who has said he will do anything to make our marriage work read the book 5 Love languages -which he has had over a month to do and has read the first 5 pages and did the quiz in the back - but has stated that he has found nothing worthy in it.
I wish I had words of wisdom for us both, but I don't. I am seeing a counsellor on my own, I am not sure if it is helping, but it can't hurt.
I have talked to my husband about a trial separation, but although he say's he will do anything, that is the one thing he will not do - for me it was a last chance to see if I could re capture feeling for him, guess he is not willing to do "anything". 

He has told me that he could live like this for the next 30 - 40 yrs!
He feels that there are 2 types of people - people like me who live by emotions, marry 4-5 times in their life and never find what they are looking for and people like him who takes what life gives him and learns to live with it! ( this is first marriage for us both)
He does not mention love to me at all.
Wish I had the answers


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## D8zed

I am on the opposite side of this - my wife says she's willing to work and work on our relationship and I am feeling indifference and no emotional attachment to her. We have met with counselors individually for the past month and will be meeting as a couple today. I have no idea what will happen today. Part of me is very nervous....well, make it ALL of me is very nervous.

One question I have for the counselor is where/how do I rediscover the love or emotional attachment to work on it more.


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## Sufficiently Breathless

good luck to you d8zed.. let us know what the therapist says!! I'm quite curious...


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## D8zed

Thanks, SB.

I asked the therapist if it was possible to rediscover love in an indifferent relationship and if she had seen it accomplished before. She said she had seen practically everything in her career and while it was indeed possible, it was a long process. Unfortunately, she didn't say much more than that.


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## MarkTwain

Claire said:


> IS IT POSSIBLE to make yourself feel something your gut feels so opposite about?


Not when you have a list of resentments that long (see above). It would contradict the known laws of physics, (and a few unknown ones as well).

If you want to feel any better about being with him, you will have to deal with the resentments one way or another - either by negotiating with him, or by forgiving him or a bit of both. I can understand why sex flew south for the winter...


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