# Boundaries for Men



## AFEH

I was with my wife for a very long time, over 40 years. In many many ways I feel truly blessed to have had her by my side for so very long. But there were some seriously bad times. During those times I would try and be ever more patient, tolerant, empathetic, understanding, compassionate, comforting etc. I got into the spiritual side of life and studied and practiced Buddhism.

But with all the work I did on myself, my wife never changed, not one little bit. In a way by being ever more patient, tolerant, compassionate I was continuously annihilating my personal boundaries. I do consider my wife to have been abusive to me, emotionally and psychologically abusive to my core values and beliefs. And by dismantling my personal boundaries I was simply not only enabling her abuse but I was making its affect on me far worse.

Below is a way for men to identify and work on their boundaries. This is something I never did. I just opened myself way up and let my wife’s abuse right into the core of who I am. I was so easily emotionally controlled and manipulated by not having personal boundaries.

The following is from Finding Your N.U.T.S.

Bob


What Are N.U.T.s?

N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your work, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your emotional and psychological well-being.

N.U.T.s are the boundaries that define you as man, those things which, if repeatedly compromised, will gradually—but assuredly—turn you into a pissed-off, resentful man who will likely blame others—especially your wife—for your unhappiness.

Your N.U.T.s are uniquely yours. They reflect who you are as a man and the man you want to be. Compromise your N.U.T.s, and you’ll compromise yourself. Compromise yourself too often, and you’ll become an extremely unhappy man, husband and father.

Sample N.U.T.s

Here’s a short list of Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms provided by the men of our BetterMen Community. These will give you an idea of the N.U.T.s which men, like you, have developed for themselves in their efforts to be the men they want to be.	I am faithful to my wife.
I say what I want.
Compassion for my family trumps my need to be right.
I replace doubt with acts of faith.
I am a risk taker.
I devote at least three hours a week to my writing.
I will only seek validation from the men.
I live in accordance with my religious faith.
I do what I believe is in the best interest of my kids, even if they disagree.
My commitment to my children comes before everything else.
Patience over temper.
I do not ask for permission.
Fear does not keep me from taking risks.
I do not indulge my addictions.
I am a man of my word—period!
I take my problems to men, not to women.
I do not show anger to my elderly mother.
I do not tolerate my wife’s attempts to belittle me.
When name-calling begins, the discussion is over.
I spend time with the men.
I have my own private office/space some place in my house.
I exercise regularly.
I do whatever it takes to keep my family in our home.
I ask for help when I’m not being the man I want to be.
I speak my mind in spite of my fear of confrontation.
I honor my daily spiritual practice.
I welcome feedback.
I only apologize when it’s appropriate, not simply to please others.
I do not hide out at work just to avoid issues at home.
I decide how I interact with my boys.
I choose which of my friendships to maintain.
I do not sell out who I am to placate others.
I share my men’s work with the men in my life.
I do as I see fit.


This list is here simply to inspire you. Maybe some of these N.U.T.s resonate with you. If so, use them and make them your own. But perhaps your N.U.T.s aren’t listed above. Do you know what they are? Not sure? No problem. Let’s talk first about how a man finds his N.U.T.s.

Finding Your N.U.T.s

Never Compromise Your N.U.T.s

Understanding the importance of finding and never compromising your N.U.T.s—your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms—is the most important thing you, as a man, will do. This may be the most important lesson you will learn from Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. So here it is:

Once you find your N.U.T.s, never forget them and never compromise them.

For some men, that may sound like great advice, a few years too late. But it’s not too late. What you read here will help. In fact, men just like you have turned their lives and their relationships around because they’ve committed themselves to finding their N.U.T.s and maintaining a firm grasp of their Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.

OK, so now that you understand what N.U.T.s are, how do you get started finding yours? Some men find their N.U.T.s over time, while others sit down and make a list. Either way, here are some of the questions you’ll want to ask yourself:

What’s most important to me in life?

Are there activities I used to do for fun that I no longer do? Is someone interfering and am I resentful because of it?

Are there valuable friendships with men I’ve let slip away?

Where am I currently having problems (unhappy, frustrated, sad, angry, resentful) in my life, and did compromising myself—and what’s important to me—contribute to my feelings and/or the situation?

What dreams have I abandoned?

If I’m going to be the man I want to be, what will I have to do differently?

TIP!

Having trouble understanding what a N.U.T. feels like? Try this: You’re walking down the street with your young daughter and a stranger grabs her, intending to kidnap her. How do you feel about that? Is giving up your daughter acceptable? Could you be persuaded to see the advantages of giving your daughter to a stranger? No? Of course not! In fact, you don’t even have to consider it. It’s very clear to you: You don’t let strangers take your daughter! It’s non-negotiable and unalterable. It’s a term of yours. You have a N.U.T. How about that!

That’s how clear your N.U.T.s must eventually be for you. Your N.U.T.s must be so ingrained that you don’t even consider them when challenged. They just are.

Some men may have a hard time identifying their N.U.T.s on their own and would benefit from the support of other men. (That’s why Develop Trusting Relationships With Men is one of the BetterMen Tools.) In men’s groups, many men will find their N.U.T.s by hearing from others who have had similar challenges, men who have identified their own Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.

Protect Your N.U.T.s

Once you’ve identified your N.U.T.s, you’ll most likely have a short list of Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. Remembering them should not be a problem. Remembering to live them, however, is where you will be challenged.

Keep your N.U.T.s close to the vest—and review them daily—until you’re ready to live them. (By all means, share them with the men in your life who can help to define your N.U.T.s and then support you when you’re ready to put them into action.)

Sharing your N.U.T.s prematurely is often an indication of your need for approval. You may be tempted to mention your N.U.T.s to your woman to test her reaction, and to see what resistance you may be up against. Also, receiving permission to live your N.U.T.s defeats their purpose.

Remember, you don’t ask for permission to be the man you want to be, you simply have to be that man.

Again, N.U.T.s are to be lived, not discussed. So resist the temptation to talk about your N.U.T.s with those who ultimately will be impacted by them. Wait until you’re ready, and then live them.


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## Blanca

:smthumbup: 

great post. i think boundaries are the foundation to a good marriage, and a good life in general.


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## Willow

Great post Bob, thank you.

I am a girl who needs to find some NUTS lol. So your post is a big help, I am going to spend time thinking on this today.

Thanks again.
Willow


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## AFEH

Blanca said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> great post. i think boundaries are the foundation to a good marriage, and a good life in general.


Yes. I see boundaries as being two way. Things we will not tolerate others doing to us and things we will not tolerate ourselves doing to other people.

Really helps identify who we are at the very core of our self and communicating that to people in our life through our behaviour.

Bob


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## AFEH

Willow said:


> Great post Bob, thank you.
> 
> I am a girl who needs to find some NUTS lol. So your post is a big help, I am going to spend time thinking on this today.
> 
> Thanks again.
> Willow


Apparently wives purchase the book for their husbands lol.

Bob


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## MEM2020

Bob,
This is a beautiful list - it truly is. And your post itself is instructive and inspirational. I truly deeply love my wife. And she has absolutely helped me grow into the man I am. It is ALSO true that she has boundary issues. She sometimes behaves in a manner that if unimpeded would eventually result in the "virtual" removal of my spine and in my emotional castration. 

Somehow early on I realized this and learned how to define a specific set of boundaries that I would defend without concern for the outcome. In the beginning my defense was sometimes a yelling/screaming match - good content - very bad delivery style. 

Now I defend those same boundaries with a calm, often humorous style. If needed I adopt a sharp tone of voice but I almost never raise my voice. I have learned to "electrify" my fences. Hit one and you get one low voltage warning zap. Press hard and I crank the voltage to 220 and let you squirm in pain for a while just to convey the idea that I am really serious. 

I have become utterly certain that these boundaries create:
- Respect
- Passion - and via passion great sex

That isn't why they are there - but those are nice side effects.

By the way my boundary list is not as good as that above. I plan to augment it from your post. Sincere thanks for posting it. 




AFEH said:


> I was with my wife for a very long time, over 40 years. In many many ways I feel truly blessed to have had her by my side for so very long. But there were some seriously bad times. During those times I would try and be ever more patient, tolerant, empathetic, understanding, compassionate, comforting etc. I got into the spiritual side of life and studied and practiced Buddhism.
> 
> But with all the work I did on myself, my wife never changed, not one little bit. In a way by being ever more patient, tolerant, compassionate I was continuously annihilating my personal boundaries. I do consider my wife to have been abusive to me, emotionally and psychologically abusive to my core values and beliefs. And by dismantling my personal boundaries I was simply not only enabling her abuse but I was making its affect on me far worse.
> 
> Below is a way for men to identify and work on their boundaries. This is something I never did. I just opened myself way up and let my wife’s abuse right into the core of who I am. I was so easily emotionally controlled and manipulated by not having personal boundaries.
> 
> The following is from Finding Your N.U.T.S.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> What Are N.U.T.s?
> 
> N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your work, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your psychological well-being.
> 
> N.U.T.s are the boundaries that define you as man, those things which, if repeatedly compromised, will gradually—but assuredly—turn you into a pissed-off, resentful man who will likely blame others—especially your wife—for your unhappiness.
> 
> Your N.U.T.s are uniquely yours. They reflect who you are as a man and the man you want to be. Compromise your N.U.T.s, and you’ll compromise yourself. Compromise yourself too often, and you’ll become an extremely unhappy man, husband and father.
> 
> Sample N.U.T.s
> 
> Here’s a short list of Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms provided by the men of our BetterMen Community. These will give you an idea of the N.U.T.s which men, like you, have developed for themselves in their efforts to be the men they want to be.	I am faithful to my wife.
> I say what I want.
> Compassion for my family trumps my need to be right.
> I replace doubt with acts of faith.
> I am a risk taker.
> I devote at least three hours a week to my writing.
> I will only seek validation from the men.
> I live in accordance with my religious faith.
> I do what I believe is in the best interest of my kids, even if they disagree.
> My commitment to my children comes before everything else.
> Patience over temper.
> I do not ask for permission.
> Fear does not keep me from taking risks.
> I do not indulge my addictions.
> I am a man of my word—period!
> I take my problems to men, not to women.
> I do not show anger to my elderly mother.
> I do not tolerate my wife’s attempts to belittle me.
> When name-calling begins, the discussion is over.
> I spend time with the men.
> I have my own private office/space some place in my house.
> I exercise regularly.
> I do whatever it takes to keep my family in our home.
> I ask for help when I’m not being the man I want to be.
> I speak my mind in spite of my fear of confrontation.
> I honor my daily spiritual practice.
> I welcome feedback.
> I only apologize when it’s appropriate, not simply to please others.
> I do not hide out at work just to avoid issues at home.
> I decide how I interact with my boys.
> I choose which of my friendships to maintain.
> I do not sell out who I am to placate others.
> I share my men’s work with the men in my life.
> I do as I see fit.
> 
> 
> This list is here simply to inspire you. Maybe some of these N.U.T.s resonate with you. If so, use them and make them your own. But perhaps your N.U.T.s aren’t listed above. Do you know what they are? Not sure? No problem. Let’s talk first about how a man finds his N.U.T.s.
> 
> Finding Your N.U.T.s
> 
> Never Compromise Your N.U.T.s
> 
> Understanding the importance of finding and never compromising your N.U.T.s—your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms—is the most important thing you, as a man, will do. This may be the most important lesson you will learn from Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. So here it is:
> 
> Once you find your N.U.T.s, never forget them and never compromise them.
> 
> For some men, that may sound like great advice, a few years too late. But it’s not too late. What you read here will help. In fact, men just like you have turned their lives and their relationships around because they’ve committed themselves to finding their N.U.T.s and maintaining a firm grasp of their Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.
> 
> OK, so now that you understand what N.U.T.s are, how do you get started finding yours? Some men find their N.U.T.s over time, while others sit down and make a list. Either way, here are some of the questions you’ll want to ask yourself:
> 
> What’s most important to me in life?
> 
> Are there activities I used to do for fun that I no longer do? Is someone interfering and am I resentful because of it?
> 
> Are there valuable friendships with men I’ve let slip away?
> 
> Where am I currently having problems (unhappy, frustrated, sad, angry, resentful) in my life, and did compromising myself—and what’s important to me—contribute to my feelings and/or the situation?
> 
> What dreams have I abandoned?
> 
> If I’m going to be the man I want to be, what will I have to do differently?
> 
> TIP!
> 
> Having trouble understanding what a N.U.T. feels like? Try this: You’re walking down the street with your young daughter and a stranger grabs her, intending to kidnap her. How do you feel about that? Is giving up your daughter acceptable? Could you be persuaded to see the advantages of giving your daughter to a stranger? No? Of course not! In fact, you don’t even have to consider it. It’s very clear to you: You don’t let strangers take your daughter! It’s non-negotiable and unalterable. It’s a term of yours. You have a N.U.T. How about that!
> 
> That’s how clear your N.U.T.s must eventually be for you. Your N.U.T.s must be so ingrained that you don’t even consider them when challenged. They just are.
> 
> Some men may have a hard time identifying their N.U.T.s on their own and would benefit from the support of other men. (That’s why Develop Trusting Relationships With Men is one of the BetterMen Tools.) In men’s groups, many men will find their N.U.T.s by hearing from others who have had similar challenges, men who have identified their own Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.
> 
> Protect Your N.U.T.s
> 
> Once you’ve identified your N.U.T.s, you’ll most likely have a short list of Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. Remembering them should not be a problem. Remembering to live them, however, is where you will be challenged.
> 
> Keep your N.U.T.s close to the vest—and review them daily—until you’re ready to live them. (By all means, share them with the men in your life who can help to define your N.U.T.s and then support you when you’re ready to put them into action.)
> 
> Sharing your N.U.T.s prematurely is often an indication of your need for approval. You may be tempted to mention your N.U.T.s to your woman to test her reaction, and to see what resistance you may be up against. Also, receiving permission to live your N.U.T.s defeats their purpose.
> 
> Remember, you don’t ask for permission to be the man you want to be, you simply have to be that man.
> 
> Again, N.U.T.s are to be lived, not discussed. So resist the temptation to talk about your N.U.T.s with those who ultimately will be impacted by them. Wait until you’re ready, and then live them.


----------



## AFEH

I couldn’t believe that at ages 60 and 57 something again could happen and the way we handled it led into the yelling and screaming. It was like we’d learnt nothing during our 4 decades together and were right back at square one.

Something had to change so I rushed to put boundaries up to protect myself, told my wife what they are, what I’d no longer tolerate and let her know unless she works on her issues, her bitterness and resentment built up after years of being together and not cleaned up on the way, I will not spend the rest of my life with her. She booked her flight and left for England.

She’s still a very bitter and resentful person and she’s still trying to abuse me. This time she’s trying it via proxy through my elder son but he’s not playing ball with her.



“Now I defend those same boundaries with a calm, often humorous style”. That’s the way to be MEM. Sounds like you could have written that book. I do know you “get it”. And yes there are beneficial side effects. Me I have a very much calmer, authentic life and I'm seeing things that have always been there that I didn't see before.

Bob


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## nice777guy

Thanks for the info. Very helpful.


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## Deejo

I love my NUTS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## what_to_do_now

Thanks Bob,

Great info. Anyone else want to chime in on my situation and give me hope and tactics that i'm doing anything and everything I can. It's such a roller-coaster. 

I've never been so clear in understanding how much I love her.....not just infatuation. True love.

I want it bad.


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## Greentea

Bob, I really love all your posts here and I've learned something from you more mature guys here. Thanks for sharing !


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## yogachick

NUTS..... I LOVE it.....makes sense to me


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## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> I am faithful to my wife.
> I say what I want.
> Compassion for my family trumps my need to be right.
> I replace doubt with acts of faith.
> I am a risk taker.
> I devote at least three hours a week to my writing.
> I will only seek validation from the men.
> I live in accordance with my religious faith.
> I do what I believe is in the best interest of my kids, even if they disagree.
> My commitment to my children comes before everything else.
> Patience over temper.
> I do not ask for permission.
> Fear does not keep me from taking risks.
> I do not indulge my addictions.
> I am a man of my word—period!
> I take my problems to men, not to women.
> I do not show anger to my elderly mother.
> I do not tolerate my wife’s attempts to belittle me.
> When name-calling begins, the discussion is over.
> I spend time with the men.
> I have my own private office/space some place in my house.
> I exercise regularly.
> I do whatever it takes to keep my family in our home.
> I ask for help when I’m not being the man I want to be.
> I speak my mind in spite of my fear of confrontation.
> I honor my daily spiritual practice.
> I welcome feedback.
> I only apologize when it’s appropriate, not simply to please others.
> I do not hide out at work just to avoid issues at home.
> I decide how I interact with my boys.
> I choose which of my friendships to maintain.
> I do not sell out who I am to placate others.
> I share my men’s work with the men in my life.
> I do as I see fit.


 I bought this book a couple months ago out of curosity, husband will never read it but I can read to him. I see most of these VERY good & I totally agree as a wife. But some I question or let's say I am glad my husband doesn't do them. 

*I devote at least three hours a week to my writing*.

I wish he devoted 3 hours to writing -WOW -that would be earth moving. Never live to see that one. I know I know, this is they authors NUTS -but I do like that one, thought it was a little odd. 


*I will only seek validation from the men*. and *I take my problems to men, not to women*......

These 2 I don't particularly care for. What is up with this, you can't talk emotionally with the wife, show her your core, just because you have to be a MAN 24/7, as though men never cry ? Not sure if the one about problems was EXCLUDING the wife or not, but if so, again, don't care for this one at all. I will agree men should not be talking to other women besides the wife, that can only lead to trouble & backstabbing with women. (even if your Mom or sister gets involved).

*I am a risk taker* and *Fear does not keep me from taking risks*

All this RISk taking talk makes it sound like if you are a more grounded conservative soul, something is wrong with you. I think sometimes Fears mean you might be taking TOO much of a Risk, sometimes men need more common sense than being Big Risk takers. I would certainly NOT want my husband to combine these Risk Taking NUTS with...
* I do as I see fit* and *I do not ask for permission*

Not that us women need to be asked for permission in any sense, but to have things Run by us, get our imput. Absolutely. 

*I spend time with the men.* My husband doesnt do this, he gets enough time with men at work, he is all for us when not working, I like that. He has no private Den or work office either. I don't think he has ever cared, but he does have his GARAGE. I think that is his escape. 

Just a few thoughts from a wife. I do agree with all of the rest though -pretty much 100%.


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## DCMarriageCounselor

Bob, I like the concept. It sounds like its a way to get a person to conceptualize that, even though they are in a push-and-pull-negotiate-compromise-all-the-time-relationship, he is also a separate individual that has a right to see and feel things the way he wants to. 

For a long time I was a big fan and promoter of approaches that did the opposite of NUTS. They're attachment-based relationship tools...in contrast to differentiation-based tools like NUTS. Teaching attachment interventions, I helped couples adjust to and accept the reality of the other so that the other's reality, accurately mirrored and attuned to, becomes more stable, more clear and more consistent until harmony and tune happens on both sides. Its a systems principle that works really well. But doing it really well can also unexpectedly create artifacts like resentment if constant attunement/attachment is is the ONLY way to create harmony and balance, like I think you seemed to refer to in your experience pre-NUTS. Now, with more experience I still help couples learn how to do the attunement/balancing thing but coach them to not depend only on it. We very quickly introduce tools like what you're suggesting that get each to differentiate from the other and self-validate without needing the other to do so (and especially when the other is doing the opposite like criticizing or attacking). 

Have to admit, never heard of NUTS...sounds like it would appeal to many guys for its simplicity and lack of pscho-babble like what I just wrote!


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## Trenton

SimplyAmorous said:


> I bought this book a couple months ago out of curosity, husband will never read it but I can read to him. I see most of these VERY good & I totally agree as a wife. But some I question or let's say I am glad my husband doesn't do them.
> 
> *I devote at least three hours a week to my writing*.
> 
> I wish he devoted 3 hours to writing -WOW -that would be earth moving. Never live to see that one. I know I know, this is they authors NUTS -but I do like that one, thought it was a little odd.
> 
> 
> *I will only seek validation from the men*. and *I take my problems to men, not to women*......
> 
> These 2 I don't particularly care for. What is up with this, you can't talk emotionally with the wife, show her your core, just because you have to be a MAN 24/7, as though men never cry ? Not sure if the one about problems was EXCLUDING the wife or not, but if so, again, don't care for this one at all. I will agree men should not be talking to other women besides the wife, that can only lead to trouble & backstabbing with women. (even if your Mom or sister gets involved).
> 
> *I am a risk taker* and *Fear does not keep me from taking risks*
> 
> All this RISk taking talk makes it sound like if you are a more grounded conservative soul, something is wrong with you. I think sometimes Fears mean you might be taking TOO much of a Risk, sometimes men need more common sense than being Big Risk takers. I would certainly NOT want my husband to combine these Risk Taking NUTS with...
> * I do as I see fit* and *I do not ask for permission*
> 
> Not that us women need to be asked for permission in any sense, but to have things Run by us, get our imput. Absolutely.
> 
> *I spend time with the men.* My husband doesnt do this, he gets enough time with men at work, he is all for us when not working, I like that. He has no private Den or work office either. I don't think he has ever cared, but he does have his GARAGE. I think that is his escape.
> 
> Just a few thoughts from a wife. I do agree with all of the rest though -pretty much 100%.


Reading this, as a woman, I couldn't comment more similarly to you SA. I feel exactly the same about the exact same NUTS.


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## major misfit

Liked and agreed with most of them. Not all. I think you have to guard against going too far in the opposite direction when the direction you had been on didn't work for you. That probably made sense only to me.  It IS getting late, y'know.

I've always said that women have nuts too..we just wear ours on our chest.


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## AFEH

> Originally Posted by AFEH
> I am faithful to my wife.
> I say what I want.
> Compassion for my family trumps my need to be right.
> I replace doubt with acts of faith.
> I am a risk taker.
> I devote at least three hours a week to my writing.
> I will only seek validation from the men.
> I live in accordance with my religious faith.
> I do what I believe is in the best interest of my kids, even if they disagree.
> My commitment to my children comes before everything else.
> Patience over temper.
> I do not ask for permission.
> Fear does not keep me from taking risks.
> I do not indulge my addictions.
> I am a man of my word—period!
> I take my problems to men, not to women.
> I do not show anger to my elderly mother.
> I do not tolerate my wife’s attempts to belittle me.
> When name-calling begins, the discussion is over.
> I spend time with the men.
> I have my own private office/space some place in my house.
> I exercise regularly.
> I do whatever it takes to keep my family in our home.
> I ask for help when I’m not being the man I want to be.
> I speak my mind in spite of my fear of confrontation.
> I honor my daily spiritual practice.
> I welcome feedback.
> I only apologize when it’s appropriate, not simply to please others.
> I do not hide out at work just to avoid issues at home.
> I decide how I interact with my boys.
> I choose which of my friendships to maintain.
> I do not sell out who I am to placate others.
> I share my men’s work with the men in my life.
> I do as I see fit.





SimplyAmorous said:


> I bought this book a couple months ago out of curosity, husband will never read it but I can read to him. I see most of these VERY good & I totally agree as a wife. But some I question or let's say I am glad my husband doesn't do them.



SimplyAmorous,
They’re not my N.U.T.s! They’re examples from the website, a combination of many men’s N.U.T.s.

Here’re the ones I used:

“If you persecute me one more time for things I’ve actually done wrong and for the things you’ve imagined I’ve done wrong in the past I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.

“If I hear “I’ll never ever forgive you for this or that” one more time I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.

“If you do not learn to confront the issues between us in a mature adult way and continue to bury them I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.

“If you do not accept the consequences of your own mistakes and continue to hold me responsible I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.

“If you do not you come to MC with me I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.


I was literally in fear of my stbx’s persecution for things I simply didn’t do that went back decades. I’d just had enough and couldn’t see another way out or any other way of protecting myself from further abuse.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> *I will only seek validation from the men*. and *I take my problems to men, not to women*......
> 
> These 2 I don't particularly care for. What is up with this, you can't talk emotionally with the wife, show her your core, just because you have to be a MAN 24/7, as though men never cry ? Not sure if the one about problems was EXCLUDING the wife or not, but if so, again, don't care for this one at all. I will agree men should not be talking to other women besides the wife, that can only lead to trouble & backstabbing with women. (even if your Mom or sister gets involved).



My stbx was not “emotionally honest” with me. She was exceptionally two faced. It was something I felt and a gut feeling I had. But something I could not validate simply by talking with her. Why? Because she was emotionally dishonest! She’d not only deluded me she ended up deluding herself and couldn’t find her way back to the truth even if she had a mind to.

Since we’ve been separated my gut feelings have been well and truly verified and validated.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH : 

I knew those were not your N.U.T.s as I have the book (only read a little but I did get that far). I knew it was a sampling of the Authors, and that men can exclude some of these and certainly add their own. 

I think all that you just listed are GREAT ones. These should be in the book. They are not written with quite the detail you give here, but they are ones I personally would agree with -even for a woman's N.U.T.s


----------



## AFEH

DCMarriageCounselor said:


> Bob, I like the concept. It sounds like its a way to get a person to conceptualize that, even though they are in a push-and-pull-negotiate-compromise-all-the-time-relationship, he is also a separate individual that has a right to see and feel things the way he wants to.
> 
> For a long time I was a big fan and promoter of approaches that did the opposite of NUTS. They're attachment-based relationship tools...in contrast to differentiation-based tools like NUTS. Teaching attachment interventions, I helped couples adjust to and accept the reality of the other so that the other's reality, accurately mirrored and attuned to, becomes more stable, more clear and more consistent until harmony and tune happens on both sides. Its a systems principle that works really well. But doing it really well can also unexpectedly create artifacts like resentment if constant attunement/attachment is is the ONLY way to create harmony and balance, like I think you seemed to refer to in your experience pre-NUTS. Now, with more experience I still help couples learn how to do the attunement/balancing thing but coach them to not depend only on it. We very quickly introduce tools like what you're suggesting that get each to differentiate from the other and self-validate without needing the other to do so (and especially when the other is doing the opposite like criticizing or attacking).
> 
> Have to admit, never heard of NUTS...sounds like it would appeal to many guys for its simplicity and lack of pscho-babble like what I just wrote!



Wow Keith that’s a fabulous response.

Yes, we can lose ourselves in long term marriages. We can lose the essence of who we are as individuals through way too much compromising. N.U.T.s. are one way of defining who we are at our very core. Take mine as an example:

“If you persecute me one more time for things I’ve actually done wrong and for the things you’ve imagined I’ve done wrong in the past I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.
_I will never persecute for the things you did wrong. They are over and done with and they are in the past._

“If I hear “I’ll never ever forgive you for this or that” one more time I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.
_I will always forgive you. If I can't I will not live with you and take what you offer me._

“If you do not learn to confront the issues between us in a mature adult way and continue to bury them I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.
_I will always confront the issues I have with you in a mature and adult way._

“If you do not accept the consequences of your own mistakes and continue to hold me responsible I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.
_I always accept the consequences of my own mistakes._

“If you do not you come to MC with me I will not spend the rest of my life with you”.
_If you want to go to MC, I will go._


----------



## AFEH

major misfit said:


> Liked and agreed with most of them. Not all. I think you have to guard against going too far in the opposite direction when the direction you had been on didn't work for you. That probably made sense only to me.  It IS getting late, y'know.
> 
> I've always said that women have nuts too..we just wear ours on our chest.



That’s very insightful. I did “go the opposite way”. From patient, tolerant, empathetic, understanding etc. etc. I turned my back on those things because I’d done way too much of them over the years because all they’d got me was persecution and abuse. That’s how it feels anyway.

But I was more than prepared to throw the towel in and walk away. I’d had enough.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> AFEH :
> 
> I knew those were not your N.U.T.s as I have the book (only read a little but I did get that far). I knew it was a sampling of the Authors, and that men can exclude some of these and certainly add their own.
> 
> I think all that you just listed are GREAT ones. These should be in the book. They are not written with quite the detail you give here, but they are ones I personally would agree with -even for a woman's N.U.T.s



SA, boundaries were so new to me and I’m seeing that as a big part of being a codependent. And I was a codependent to a bitter and resentful woman. That wasn’t the young woman I married.

But over the years in our marriage my stbx handled our marriage problems in the exact same way her mother and father handled their marriage problems. My stbx doesn’t like her mother that much at all. Yet she treated me in some respects in the exact same way her mother treated her father who she loved very much.

I could never get her to do things “differently”. I’m obviously still working my way through stuff. I’ve had like a “relapse” and I think that’s because my younger son is staying with me. I’m still very much “stuck in the past”. I’m looking forward to getting back into the present and future when my son has left.

Bob


----------



## Conrad

Bob,

Disturbing to hear of your relapse.

Do you want to share any of the details?


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> Disturbing to hear of your relapse.
> 
> Do you want to share any of the details?


I would like to confront the issues between my son and I. Resolve them in one way or another. Or agree to disagree. Either way to put it all in the past and “move on”. I’m truly struggling with the two faced nature of our relationship. I’m in like “limbo land”. I’m twixt and between.

The only way I see out of my limbo land is when he has gone. So I’m in a holding pattern. It’s a different, very unfocused world for me but at least I know it’s temporary and it will pass.


----------



## Conrad

That's really a tough spot.

It's like he's a stand-in for her.


----------



## AFEH

Conrad said:


> That's really a tough spot.
> 
> It's like he's a stand-in for her.



Hmmmmmmmmm !!!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I was going to comment on the "stand-in" part too. Usually I am totally lost with Conrads posts, but I seriously "GOT" that one and it makes all the sense in the world!!


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> I was going to comment on the "stand-in" part too. Usually I am totally lost with Conrads posts, but I seriously "GOT" that one and it makes all the sense in the world!!



I've followed that thought for a little while. My eldest son is considered a chip off the block in many ways, my block that is. If I follow that thought then my youngest is a chip off his mother’s block.

I’m not sure as to whether to let the penny drop all the way, it’s that Perceiving thing before I make the Judgement. So I’ll run with a temporary Judgment in place and see how that feels. I know if I do make that Judgment then the best thing for me to do is just let him go his own way.


----------



## anonim

AFEH said:


> I will only seek validation from the men.





AFEH said:


> I take my problems to men, not to women.


why?



AFEH said:


> I do not ask for permission.


Are there no things one should ask permission for? what exactly do you mean?


----------



## alphaomega

I find it interesting on some of the NUTS the women disagree upon.

But, I also find it natural. For lack of a better term, I think its because those NUTS you oppose are probably closest to the ones that give back the "manliness" to the man, and take that power away from the "wife".

Any comments on this thought?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

Bob.....

Why do you feel in limbo? Is the youngest son exhibiting a lot of passive agressive traits that your wife has done? Are you stuck in a Meme you learned with being with your wife and it's all flooding back? And is this causing you to shut down and not cope with the situation?

Don't allow this to happen. Don't wait to move out of your limbo until your son leaves. Ironically enough, those same NUTS are going to perhaps let you leave your limbo and face this head on if you need to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alphaomega

Interestingly, but perhaps a little sad and shameful on my part......

Once I "left" my PAgressive self behind me...it allowed me the clarity to notice that my poor children were exhibiting some of those very same traits.....learned from me!!!

The fortunate part is that they are still small children. Not to late for "reprogramming"....so to speak. Now, when we have emotional hurt in the house....I make sure we talk it out immediately and resolve those hurt feelings. Plus....it helps me understand my children's NUTS without intentionally kicking them as easy as parents sometimes do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## morituri

SimplyAmorous said:


> *I will only seek validation from the men*. and *I take my problems to men, not to women*......
> 
> These 2 I don't particularly care for. What is up with this, you can't talk emotionally with the wife, show her your core, just because you have to be a MAN 24/7, as though men never cry ? Not sure if the one about problems was EXCLUDING the wife or not, but if so, again, don't care for this one at all. I will agree men should not be talking to other women besides the wife, that can only lead to trouble & backstabbing with women. (even if your Mom or sister gets involved).


There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Relationship wise, women have formed support groups among themselves while we men have become in essence "lone wolves". Also, when it comes to validation, women find validation more from each other than they ever do from men. And when it comes to their problems, who do women turn to when they have problems, their men? no, other women. Now I'm not saying this is bad, just the opposite, so the question is, why can't men do the same?

Granted that all this is in general terms and not necessarily representative of all individuals. Nevertheless, I actually believe this NUT is beneficial for both men and women.


----------



## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> Bob.....
> 
> Why do you feel in limbo? Is the youngest son exhibiting a lot of passive agressive traits that your wife has done? Are you stuck in a Meme you learned with being with your wife and it's all flooding back? And is this causing you to shut down and not cope with the situation?
> 
> Don't allow this to happen. Don't wait to move out of your limbo until your son leaves. Ironically enough, those same NUTS are going to perhaps let you leave your limbo and face this head on if you need to.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Although just about everything in my nature was shouting at me to confront my son, I didn’t. Instead I decided to be two faced which meant cooking his meals and eating with him, having a beer and playing pool while at the same time snooping on his communication with his mother.

Not nice, not something I’d ever normally do but even looking back more than a year later I don’t regret it one little bit.

Their communications were there in Skype going back nearly three years, some 300 pages. Their relationship is exceedingly “intense” in that rarely a day went by that they didn’t chat with one another.

And some of the things they were saying about me were so unreal, I could hardly find anything I could agree with. Apparently I have secret bank accounts, hidden money and other things that just aren’t true.

Most importantly I discovered just what a two faced liar my wife is and had been with me. I came to the conclusion that she’s a habitual, pathologically compulsive liar. Such that she’d never ever be able to get back to the “truth”, back to reality because she’d totally deluded not only me but herself as well. It’s why there’s no point in me ever trying any form of reconciliation with her.

The really strange thing is that she believes her paradigm to be totally normal. That for example it’s normal to tell three different people three different things about the same event. She just tells people what she wants them to believe given the situation she is in with them.

And I discovered that some of the times she’d hurt me the pain she’d caused was premeditated, she’d actually sat down and planned it out. And again she believes this is “normal” behaviour, something every other person does. And that’s why she’s paranoid and that’s why she’s accused me of doing things to her that I didn’t do.


My wife and younger son are literally like two peas in a pod. It’s like there are joined at the hip and one cannot survive without the other. This is the exact same situation between my wife’s mother and her two sons. One of them became a mass murderer and I know the reason why.

Pathological embitterment is a way of life for some people, it’s created by hard and fast processes in their paradigm of life. And I was trying to change that within my wife by ever more patience and tolerance, empathy, compassion and coaching in new ways of doing things and I failed utterly. No way did I move her an inch forward or backward such is the hardwired nature of her mind. My younger son is the same.



It wasn’t until I found out about boundaries that I was able to stop the crazy episodes we went through on a few occasions in the years we were together. My wife’s well thought out passively aggressive acts and premeditated emotional “violence” caused a nervous breakdown in me as I internalised the anger that arose due to the pain she created inside of me.

I am quite proud of myself that the expression of my anger was not to hit my wife, not to hurt her back and cause her pain in a passive aggressive way but rather I internalised it. I think in some ways that may have cost me what with all the stress I had in me for about six months or so. But I think that cost much less than if I’d actually hit her which I felt driven to do. She had no idea the great danger she’d put herself in.


I know for certain my wife and younger son walk very different paths in these things than do my elder son and myself. And for the latter I am one seriously grateful and exceedingly blessed man. I’ve lost my younger son as, in one of her premeditated acts of emotional violence she has turned him against me. I was shocked to come to the realisation that that had been going on for over a decade! And that believe it or not was something she, of her own volition swore she’d never ever do.

I loved my wife deeply and for a very long time, she was exceptionally special to me and she really did bring me immense amounts of joy and happiness. And I can at times be very difficult and challenging (ahem).

Just to have these thoughts about her makes me feel in some way a traitor, that I’ve betrayed her. To get to some form of understanding of what went wrong and why I’ve had to believe the unbelievable.

And then when I got to that understanding, to accept it was massively difficult for me. For example “My wife set out to hurt me in a premeditated way”. Did she? Did she really do that? I didn’t think anybody did that let alone a woman who’s having sex with, eating and sleeping with, sat down in cafes with coffees and cakes, take take taking from me and all that while planning ways to hurt me.

Now I know why in the times she seemed very quite while say in the car with me and I asked her what she’s thinking she’d say “Nothing” in a quite way. Now I know the types of things she was thinking and now I know why she wouldn’t tell me.




Getting back to boundaries. My lesson is if someone is abusing and hurting you never ever try and change them. Do not show them any patience, tolerance, empathy or compassion. Tell them you do not accept that behaviour and what the consequences will be if it’s continued. And if they don’t want to suffer the consequences then they’ll change their behaviour.

I’ve banished both my wife and younger son from my life because neither would stop their abusive behaviour. I know that at least in the beginning of our separation my wife wanted back with me. She even said at one time that she has “conditions”. She just hasn’t got a clue.


Hard and fast boundary enforcement is immensely difficult when you are so in love with the person who is abusing you. For me the pain created from her abuse reached a point in the end where I simply couldn’t tolerate it any more. And I think that’s what ends marriages, pain. We know when we’ve had enough of it.


----------



## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> I find it interesting on some of the NUTS the women disagree upon.
> 
> But, I also find it natural. For lack of a better term, I think its because those NUTS you oppose are probably closest to the ones that give back the "manliness" to the man, and take that power away from the "wife".
> 
> Any comments on this thought?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe if he has a wife who wants to control him and dominant him she’s the type of woman who wont like them. Because he simply would never let her dominate and control him. In fact to be dominated and controlled by a woman (or anyone!) is for a man to be emasculated, feeble, ineffectual, helpless, weakened.

Hold onto your N.U.T.s with those boundaries!!!


----------



## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> Interestingly, but perhaps a little sad and shameful on my part......
> 
> Once I "left" my PAgressive self behind me...it allowed me the clarity to notice that my poor children were exhibiting some of those very same traits.....learned from me!!!
> 
> The fortunate part is that they are still small children. Not to late for "reprogramming"....so to speak. Now, when we have emotional hurt in the house....I make sure we talk it out immediately and resolve those hurt feelings. Plus....it helps me understand my children's NUTS without intentionally kicking them as easy as parents sometimes do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know one of the wisest things I think a parent can teach their children is Emotional Intelligence. Some say it’s more important for their future than IQ is. And lets face it some of those with the highest of IQs can have the most tragic of lives all because they couldn’t manage their emotions in healthy ways.


But to teach a child about their emotions, we have to know our own! And so it goes on, down the line. A pathologically embittered mother for example will, by her examples, teach her children to manage their emotions in pathological, revengeful ways, sometimes in the case of mass murderers with the most tragic of results.


If you haven’t read it I highly recommend Emotional Intelligence Amazon.com: Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ (9780553383713): Daniel Goleman: Books. It’s that sort of book that is picked up time and time again and each time something new and useful is revealed.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

morituri said:


> There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Relationship wise, women have formed support groups among themselves while we men have become in essence "lone wolves". Also, when it comes to validation, women find validation more from each other than they ever do from men. And when it comes to their problems, who do women turn to when they have problems, their men? no, other women. Now I'm not saying this is bad, just the opposite, so the question is, why can't men do the same?
> 
> Granted that all this is in general terms and not necessarily representative of all individuals. Nevertheless, I actually believe this NUT is beneficial for both men and women.


I didn't misunderstand anything said here at all. You are right about one thing....this doesn't represent all individuals. My husband did need a few more "nuts" back in the day, this is true.. but he was never the type that cared to hang out with a bunch of Locker room guys. Hell no.... he'd say. 

And NO, in our marraige, I don't run to my friends, my mom, I don't have any sisters, I run to him. And he takes all his "bad days" to me also -- except when he needed a few more nuts in the past, he held some things in..... he would have been much better off ...just coming to ME. I am pretty damn easy to get along with. And I don't look down on Nice Guys either. 

We are each others Best Friend.... frankly, I wouldn't even want to be married to a man who didn't feel as strongly about that as I. 

I attended a Mops group for 13 yrs with other women...I have a # of close girlfriends... nice to get out, talk on the phone once in a while, share on FB, but in no way shape or form do I feel I get more validation from these women in my life -over my own husband. Nope, not my experience, and nor do I feel I need that. 

Nor does my husband have any desire to start hanging with the guys after work, he loves coming home to his wife...something I also cherish about him. 

It hasn't hurt us a wink... in fact I would say this has enhanced our marraige & connection. When we do get out with friends, we generally are still together, we enjoy going out with other couples. 

Granted ....if your wife is a difficult woman, belittling you, if she thinks you are a pu**y for being sensitive, for trying to be a better man, showing emotion, whatever... then sure, leave her in the dust and get yourself around some lone wolfs... but that simply is not our situation by any means.


----------



## AFEH

morituri said:


> There seems to be a misunderstanding here. Relationship wise, women have formed support groups among themselves while we men have become in essence "lone wolves". Also, when it comes to validation, women find validation more from each other than they ever do from men. And when it comes to their problems, who do women turn to when they have problems, their men? no, other women. Now I'm not saying this is bad, just the opposite, so the question is, why can't men do the same?
> 
> Granted that all this is in general terms and not necessarily representative of all individuals. Nevertheless, I actually believe this NUT is beneficial for both men and women.


Men understand men in ways women never will. Women think they understand us, but they don’t. In the same way some men think they understand women, but don’t.

A man will relate to a man’s problems far more than a woman ever will. That’s because a man is able to put himself in the other man’s shoes and “feel” (have empathy with) what his problems are, whereas a woman can’t. Unless of course she’s a trained and experienced psychotherapist. There are exceptions to every rule.

As soon as a man expresses his problems with his wife to another woman, the woman immediately puts herself in the shoes of the man’s wife and looks at his problem from his wife’s perspective. She’s far more likely to empathise with his wife (feel her pain, annoyance, aggravation, hurt, frustration) and to understand his wife’s problems with him, than she ever is to empathise with him and understand his problems with his wife!

It is the most natural and instinctive thing for the woman to do and happens often, time and time again on TAM. With some aggregation from the men! Which again is a natural response.

Whereas when a man expresses his problems to another man, the man will immediately put himself in the man’s shoes and look at the problem from the husband’s perspective. Therefore he is far better able to help the man because he actually understands his problems!


That’s not to say it doesn’t help to get both sides of the story. But for me, men have helped me through my problems more than women. That’s not to say I don’t value or under estimate a woman’s advice and help. But the biggest positive changes to my life have come from the men that are in it.

When I was going through my trauma, nervous breakdown a couple of years back I had four women nurturing me through it. One came round to see me just about every day for 30 minutes or so just to check up on me! I can’t place a value on that or the help I received from the other women. It is absolutely priceless.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> If you haven’t read it I highly recommend Emotional Intelligence Amazon.com: Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ (9780553383713): Daniel Goleman: Books. It’s that sort of book that is picked up time and time again and each time something new and useful is revealed.


I bought this book, I think the Author is too intelligent for me, I felt like I needed my electronic dictionary at my fingertips to look up a ton of words as I read. 

I didn't get very far unfortunetely. Love the subject though!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

AFEH said:


> As soon as a man expresses his problems with his wife to another woman, the woman immediately puts herself in the shoes of the man’s wife and looks at his problem from his wife’s perspective. She’s far more likely to empathise with his wife (feel her pain, annoyance, aggravation, hurt, frustration) and to understand his wife’s problems with him, than she ever is to empathise with him and understand his problems with his wife!
> 
> It is the most natural and instinctive thing for the woman to do and happens often, time and time again on TAM. With some aggregation from the men! Which again is a natural response.


 NOT me baby, I am the exception to that rule. 

But I always was one to play Devils advocate... I have seriously pissed off a # of female friends doing this. I had one de-freind me on Facebook for a time - for trying to paint how her husband feels, so she could see his side in their problems.... She got over it and asked me to be her friend again, I had to laugh.

I told another friend if I was married to her, I'd leave her. Nope, with me, there is no automatic "taking a woman's side"... absolutely NOT. I look at the whole damn picture, I ask alot of questions, and I dissect every living thing out of it, from his side to her side. Love it. 

But I have always & forever been a Psyche freak.... I live in a household of Testosterone...6 men under one roof. I better understand them!


----------



## Blanca

alphaomega said:


> I find it interesting on some of the NUTS the women disagree upon.
> 
> But, I also find it natural. For lack of a better term, I think its because those NUTS you oppose are probably closest to the ones that give back the "manliness" to the man, and take that power away from the "wife".
> 
> Any comments on this thought?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The only power struggle is within yourself. Standing up to your spouse, and regaining your manliness, is really about facing whatever fear is causing you to make that choice. It's about realizing that you are emasculating yourself because you're abjecting yourself to your fears. Once you realize that you've been choosing emasculation by letting your fears control you, you'll see that you had the power the entire time. 

The keystone of boundaries is to stop making decisions based off of fear and start making decision based on what makes you feel at peace with yourself in that moment. If you stand up to your wife you'll face your fears. When you really understand boundaries you will leave the power struggle and enter your own peaceful state of being.


----------



## AFEH

SimplyAmorous said:


> I bought this book, I think the Author is too intelligent for me, I felt like I needed my electronic dictionary at my fingertips to look up a ton of words as I read.
> 
> I didn't get very far unfortunetely. Love the subject though!


Maybe you have to have a real “need” to get through it? Can’t remembering myself getting stuck on words in there and I certainly don’t see myself as having a better command of English than you have. So I’m perplexed.


I did though (due to my problems) have a massive need to learn about my emotions. My need was especially to do with my active anger. I am by no means a passive guy. If I’m seriously pushed I tend to let rip and then let it go. I don’t brood, I don’t dwell and I’m as quick to forgive (most of the time) as I am to get angry. But I didn’t like that part about me so I needed to learn what was happening inside of my so I could do something about it.

Very much the opposite to alphaomega. He wanted to change his passive anger ways, I wanted to change my active anger ways. I like that guy so much because he’s been brave enough to validate what I could only be speculative of. The world of the passively angry person was way beyond my comprehension, understanding.


The thing that really surprises me with anger, is that it is the active anger people who are seen as having a problem, but never the passive anger people. All we typically hear about is active anger and never passive anger. The husband’s physical violence against his wife, but never the wife’s emotional violence against her husband. 

For me anger management courses totally miss the point! The courses should be about pain AND anger management. Because as sure as heck the pain comes before the anger. And those passive aggressive people like my wife, who deliberately set out to cause as much emotional pain as possible do so in such a way that in no way are they seen to create the pain! All that is seen is the active anger person’s (me) response to the pain she’s created.

If we want to see why a person is angry or why we are angry, look to see where the pain has come from. Maybe everyone knows that but me. I know for a fact Deejo does.

Without boundaries, in fact with my never ending patience and tolerance etc. I annihilated any that were there in the first place, I let my wife right inside to the deepest parts of me and that’s how she got to hurt me so easily and so very deeply. But I was dealing with an absolute expert in passive aggressive ways, a pathologically embittered person and I hadn’t a clue!


----------



## Blanca

*Dean* said:


> So one of the boundaries I have is to not immediately express what I may feel.
> 
> 
> 
> Me too! It has helped me immensely.
Click to expand...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Dean* said:


> I like what morituri wrote here and agree with it.
> 
> SA, I think your relationship with your husband is an exception,
> not the norm. Not saying that is bad, it's very good in your case.


I guess that makes us just plain WEIRD...or to make myself feel better, I'll say....we're "Unique" . 

Oh well...I'd say we have always felt like square pegs trying to fit in round holes among many.... . Nothing new under the sun for us....but we are very very happy....being what we are, we embrace those differences, even love them...neither of us try to hide that around others either... I guess it sets us apart . 

BUT...

I guess that makes US not very relatable on this forum!! and well... that kinda sucks !


----------



## AFEH

Blanca said:


> The only power struggle is within yourself. Standing up to your spouse, and regaining your manliness, is really about facing whatever fear is causing you to make that choice. It's about realizing that you are emasculating yourself because you're abjecting yourself to your fears. Once you realize that you've been choosing emasculation by letting your fears control you, you'll see that you had the power the entire time.
> 
> The keystone of boundaries is to stop making decisions based off of fear and start making decision based on what makes you feel at peace with yourself in that moment. If you stand up to your wife you'll face your fears. When you really understand boundaries you will leave the power struggle and enter your own peaceful state of being.


Truly? You truly think we should never base our decisions based on our fears?

Surely that’s a serious, deliberate and exceedingly conscious destruction of our boundaries!

If someone standing in front of us already having smashed into our body with a hammer, you really think we shouldn’t make our very next decision based on our fear that they are about to do it again? You really think that a wife who’s been beaten by her husband that she’s not walking about full of anxiety in fear that he’ll do it again?

Believe me we do make decisions based on our fears and those decisions can be immediate to ensure that we never go through the same level of pain again!

But it’s not just true with physically abusive, violent people. It’s also true of emotional abusive, violent people as well. And we sure as heck get ourselves as far away as possible such that they can no longer reach us and hurt us with their premeditated, emotionally violent ways.


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## AFEH

If someone is causing us a level of pain such that we are terrified and live in fear and anxiety that they’ll do the same thing again the LAST thing we need to do is look inside ourselves!


The VERY FIRST thing we do is put a BOUNDARY around ourselves such that the abuser, the physically or emotionally violent person cannot get in!

Later on, we may well look to see what happened and why, if we contributed to our own abuse and pain.

But that most certainly does not come BEFORE erecting boundaries such that the same thing never happens again!


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## morituri

SA I was talking in general terms, not individual cases like yours. So I still stand by my belief that in most cases, men need other men for the support only men can give to each other. This should not be misinterpreted as substituting or giving higher value or priority to other men over one's female life companion. *The male support group should be marriage or relationship supportive otherwise it is a toxic gang.*

The problem with lone wolves is that they are too emotionally dependent on their wives or girlfriends and when the relationship ends, they have no support group to help them to recover. Emotionally speaking, men become marooned on a dessert island. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why men's health deteriorates so much and our life's are cut shorter.

There is no need for women to feel threatened or defensive of the male support groups.


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## Rowan

alphaomega said:


> I find it interesting on some of the NUTS the women disagree upon.
> 
> But, I also find it natural. For lack of a better term, I think its because those NUTS you oppose are probably closest to the ones that give back the "manliness" to the man, and take that power away from the "wife".
> 
> Any comments on this thought?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never wanted to control or dominate my husband and I certainly had no interest in taking his manliness away. But being considered would have been nice. Establishing boundaries of not asking permission and doing as you please works great if you're a classic nice guy who would otherwise be run over by your domineering spouse. It's less a good thing if you're narcissistic and latch on to a few of the items on the NUTS list to use as further confirmation that you are "right" in your behaviors - while disregarding those items from the list that speak to balance and integrity. 

You need boundaries in both directions. Things you won't accept from others _and_ things you won't accept from yourself or impose on others. Some people have too much of one side and too little of the other. My husband is the type who has strong boundaries about what he tolerates, and virtually no boundaries at all on what he imposes on others. He is also very unaccepting of other people's boundaries, seeming to view them as a personal affront to him that must be attacked and destroyed. I, on the other hand, had weak boundaries about what I would accept from others and strong boundaries about what I would attempt to impose on others. Neither is a healthy perspective because both lack balance.


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## AFEH

*Dean* said:


> I have a problem with a few on this list.
> 
> Example: I do as I see fit.
> 
> 
> This is just an example right?
> 
> The "I do as I see fit" is what gets me in the dog house with the wife.
> 
> "I do as I see fit" is also what held back my career when I was just getting
> started as a young man. Controling my emotions has always been a growth
> area for me. Once I learned how to control it better, I became a better leader.


The thing is to make your own boundaries, I know you are aware of that. You could of course go through other men’s boundaries and pick them to pieces. But what’s the point in that? And in any case we are each very unique individuals with our unique life circumstances and our own very unique ways of handling them. As such we will all have our very own, very special and very unique set of boundaries.


But let’s look at “fit". Don’t you do as you see “fit”? Within your marriage and work life whatever “fit” is has probably been decided after consultation with others. But say as the decision maker, it’s your responsibility so at the end of the day you do what you see as “fit”. If after consultation you were to do what someone else saw as “fit” and it goes belly up, as the decision maker you still have only yourself to blame.


On the other hand “fit” could be another guy’s unilateral declaration without any consultation whatsoever.


You could of course go through them one by one, but that’s not the point at all. The point is BOUNDARIES. Some (I think many) like me simply didn’t know of their existence let alone how to enact them in healthy ways!


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## Rowan

morituri said:


> SA I was talking in general terms, not individual cases like yours. So I still stand by my belief that in most cases, men need other men for the support only men can give to each other. This should not be misinterpreted as substituting or giving higher value or priority to other men over one's female life companion. *The male support group should be marriage or relationship supportive otherwise it is a toxic gang.*
> 
> The problem with lone wolves is that they are too emotionally dependent on their wives or girlfriends and when the relationship ends, they have no support group to help them to recover. Emotionally speaking, men become marooned on a dessert island. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why men's health deteriorates so much and our life's are cut shorter.
> 
> There is no need for women to feel threatened or defensive of the male support groups.


I would love it if my husband had a relationship-friendly group of men to offer support. Sadly, though, his closest supporters seem to fall into the "toxic gang" territory.


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## AFEH

Rowan said:


> I would love it if my husband had a relationship-friendly group of men to offer support. Sadly, though, his closest supporters seem to fall into the "toxic gang" territory.


You have to consider "Birds of a feather ......". He's probably just as toxic as his friends. That's why he spends time with them Birds of a ......


Toxic friends can be the death knell of a marriage, a warning of the end.


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## Rowan

AFEH said:


> You have to consider "Birds of a feather ......". He's probably just as toxic as his friends. That's why he spends time with them Birds of a ......
> 
> 
> Toxic friends can be the death knell of a marriage, a warning of the end.


Yep. He used to have a great group of guys he was buddies with, but always maintained a few friendships with guys that I didn't like much for reasons I couldn't really pinpoint. In recent years, the number of good guys has decreased while the number of dodgy guys has increased. And, since I've been monitoring his communications in the wake of his EA, I've learned that most of them are definitely toxic and that my husband is indeed toxic as well.


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## morituri

Toxic 'friends' are the bane of marriages. Sadly it takes an epiphany to drop these so called friends and again walk the straight and narrow.


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## SimplyAmorous

morituri said:


> Toxic 'friends' are the bane of marriages. Sadly it takes an epiphany to drop these so called friends and again walk the straight and narrow.


 This really is a shame... My husband never needed an Epiphany...he was never this type of guy......Neither of us ever had any temptation to hang out at bars, living it up, those wild days..... zero interest.... I think we were mature beyond our yrs when we were young. We've probably been in a bar less than 15 times our entire marraige, it was always together & if our friends picked such a place to eat out.

I can't say any of his friends or mine was ever toxic in even the smallest degree. Some have come & gone in our lives but they've all been good people. 

I may be able to look at those types from a distance and laugh at their A-holeness but I have little patience for people like that..... It wouldn't even be healthy for me to be around them, cause at some point I'd probably get in their face & have it out with them. 

My husband would keep his mouth shut but me, well, I tend to need duct tape sometimes. 

There is a couple toxic relatives on my side, I shut them out of our life... didn't need the grief.


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## Conscious

AFEH said:


> I was with my wife for a very long time, over 40 years. In many many ways I feel truly blessed to have had her by my side for so very long. But there were some seriously bad times. During those times I would try and be ever more patient, tolerant, empathetic, understanding, compassionate, comforting etc. I got into the spiritual side of life and studied and practiced Buddhism.
> 
> But with all the work I did on myself, my wife never changed, not one little bit. In a way by being ever more patient, tolerant, compassionate I was continuously annihilating my personal boundaries. I do consider my wife to have been abusive to me, emotionally and psychologically abusive to my core values and beliefs. And by dismantling my personal boundaries I was simply not only enabling her abuse but I was making its affect on me far worse.
> 
> Below is a way for men to identify and work on their boundaries. This is something I never did. I just opened myself way up and let my wife’s abuse right into the core of who I am. I was so easily emotionally controlled and manipulated by not having personal boundaries.
> 
> The following is from Finding Your N.U.T.S.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> What Are N.U.T.s?
> 
> N.U.T.s are your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. N.U.T.s are the things you’re committed to, the things that matter more than anything else: your kids, your work, yourself, your purpose, your spiritual practice, your hobbies, your integrity, your morals and your emotional and psychological well-being.
> 
> N.U.T.s are the boundaries that define you as man, those things which, if repeatedly compromised, will gradually—but assuredly—turn you into a pissed-off, resentful man who will likely blame others—especially your wife—for your unhappiness.
> 
> Your N.U.T.s are uniquely yours. They reflect who you are as a man and the man you want to be. Compromise your N.U.T.s, and you’ll compromise yourself. Compromise yourself too often, and you’ll become an extremely unhappy man, husband and father.
> 
> Sample N.U.T.s
> 
> Here’s a short list of Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms provided by the men of our BetterMen Community. These will give you an idea of the N.U.T.s which men, like you, have developed for themselves in their efforts to be the men they want to be.	I am faithful to my wife.
> I say what I want.
> Compassion for my family trumps my need to be right.
> I replace doubt with acts of faith.
> I am a risk taker.
> I devote at least three hours a week to my writing.
> I will only seek validation from the men.
> I live in accordance with my religious faith.
> I do what I believe is in the best interest of my kids, even if they disagree.
> My commitment to my children comes before everything else.
> Patience over temper.
> I do not ask for permission.
> Fear does not keep me from taking risks.
> I do not indulge my addictions.
> I am a man of my word—period!
> I take my problems to men, not to women.
> I do not show anger to my elderly mother.
> I do not tolerate my wife’s attempts to belittle me.
> When name-calling begins, the discussion is over.
> I spend time with the men.
> I have my own private office/space some place in my house.
> I exercise regularly.
> I do whatever it takes to keep my family in our home.
> I ask for help when I’m not being the man I want to be.
> I speak my mind in spite of my fear of confrontation.
> I honor my daily spiritual practice.
> I welcome feedback.
> I only apologize when it’s appropriate, not simply to please others.
> I do not hide out at work just to avoid issues at home.
> I decide how I interact with my boys.
> I choose which of my friendships to maintain.
> I do not sell out who I am to placate others.
> I share my men’s work with the men in my life.
> I do as I see fit.
> 
> 
> This list is here simply to inspire you. Maybe some of these N.U.T.s resonate with you. If so, use them and make them your own. But perhaps your N.U.T.s aren’t listed above. Do you know what they are? Not sure? No problem. Let’s talk first about how a man finds his N.U.T.s.
> 
> Finding Your N.U.T.s
> 
> Never Compromise Your N.U.T.s
> 
> Understanding the importance of finding and never compromising your N.U.T.s—your Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms—is the most important thing you, as a man, will do. This may be the most important lesson you will learn from Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. So here it is:
> 
> Once you find your N.U.T.s, never forget them and never compromise them.
> 
> For some men, that may sound like great advice, a few years too late. But it’s not too late. What you read here will help. In fact, men just like you have turned their lives and their relationships around because they’ve committed themselves to finding their N.U.T.s and maintaining a firm grasp of their Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.
> 
> OK, so now that you understand what N.U.T.s are, how do you get started finding yours? Some men find their N.U.T.s over time, while others sit down and make a list. Either way, here are some of the questions you’ll want to ask yourself:
> 
> What’s most important to me in life?
> 
> Are there activities I used to do for fun that I no longer do? Is someone interfering and am I resentful because of it?
> 
> Are there valuable friendships with men I’ve let slip away?
> 
> Where am I currently having problems (unhappy, frustrated, sad, angry, resentful) in my life, and did compromising myself—and what’s important to me—contribute to my feelings and/or the situation?
> 
> What dreams have I abandoned?
> 
> If I’m going to be the man I want to be, what will I have to do differently?
> 
> TIP!
> 
> Having trouble understanding what a N.U.T. feels like? Try this: You’re walking down the street with your young daughter and a stranger grabs her, intending to kidnap her. How do you feel about that? Is giving up your daughter acceptable? Could you be persuaded to see the advantages of giving your daughter to a stranger? No? Of course not! In fact, you don’t even have to consider it. It’s very clear to you: You don’t let strangers take your daughter! It’s non-negotiable and unalterable. It’s a term of yours. You have a N.U.T. How about that!
> 
> That’s how clear your N.U.T.s must eventually be for you. Your N.U.T.s must be so ingrained that you don’t even consider them when challenged. They just are.
> 
> Some men may have a hard time identifying their N.U.T.s on their own and would benefit from the support of other men. (That’s why Develop Trusting Relationships With Men is one of the BetterMen Tools.) In men’s groups, many men will find their N.U.T.s by hearing from others who have had similar challenges, men who have identified their own Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms.
> 
> Protect Your N.U.T.s
> 
> Once you’ve identified your N.U.T.s, you’ll most likely have a short list of Non-negotiable, Unalterable Terms. Remembering them should not be a problem. Remembering to live them, however, is where you will be challenged.
> 
> Keep your N.U.T.s close to the vest—and review them daily—until you’re ready to live them. (By all means, share them with the men in your life who can help to define your N.U.T.s and then support you when you’re ready to put them into action.)
> 
> Sharing your N.U.T.s prematurely is often an indication of your need for approval. You may be tempted to mention your N.U.T.s to your woman to test her reaction, and to see what resistance you may be up against. Also, receiving permission to live your N.U.T.s defeats their purpose.
> 
> Remember, you don’t ask for permission to be the man you want to be, you simply have to be that man.
> 
> Again, N.U.T.s are to be lived, not discussed. So resist the temptation to talk about your N.U.T.s with those who ultimately will be impacted by them. Wait until you’re ready, and then live them.


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## OhGeesh

I didn't read this before, but just wanted to chime in my N.U.T.S are one thing only:

1. My Wife and that's it!! Everything else is just stuff, things, or wants, my wife is what makes me whole first.


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## alphaomega

Bob,

One of your comments resonates with me more on your post than any other...

" During those times I would try and be ever more patient, tolerant, empathetic, understanding, compassionate, comforting etc. I got into the spiritual side of life and studied and practiced Buddhism.

But with all the work I did on myself, my wife never changed, not one little bit. "

..and again....
"my wife never changed"

You see, to a true passive agressive, all that compassion, understanding, apologizing, pleading, comforting..... that's what we feed off of. Of course she never changed. You were feeding into exactly what she wanted. All that emotional support from you just validated what she was doing. You are wrong....she was right. You felt like shat for doing whatever the hell you did, even though you never exactly knew what you did....and that's exactly what she wanted. Payback.....for whatever reason she decided. Or maybe she was just in a bad mood, and decided to fk with your mind some more.

It's what we feed off of. This is exactly what we are searching for in our passive agressive attacks on you. That validation that we are the right ones, and that in fact, our emotional warfare is working exactly how it's supposed to.

You, of course, being of right sound and mind, had no way of knowing this. What you did is what anyone would do to try to "fix" a relationship. But, as you've already experienced, we are far from normal. It's almost psychopatic behaviour, except we know exactly what we are doing, and exactly how to win the war. the sad part of it to you is that you would never ever in a million years break through to her. And, you were never right...even if she was wrong. In fact...you would rue the day you were ever right.

It's a shame I put my wife through the same warfare you experienced for so long until you finally had enough. And, I can fully understand your nervous breakdown. Hell, my wife was on fraking prozac until I was out of the picture. I put her on those fkn things. I kept her guessing what the rules of the relationship were, and then changed the rules mid stream. And I never forgave. I could pull up shat from one month after we were dating, stored away in my mind to use as ammo, just in case I needed it later on in the relationship....and always with a smile on my face.

I think your own love and compassion is what finally got to you. Such massive confusion as to what was really happening, without actually knowing there was a war going on.

It's not one of my highlights of my life, being like that. Yes, I am a product of my abusive and highly disfunctional past....or at least I was.

I run my own life now. thank goodness!


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## AFEH

Alphaomega, reading what you have written has been exceedingly cathartic for me and I think that’s because you’ve validated what I’ve struggled to believe, accept and come to terms with over quite a long time. And you have indeed brought me a great deal of solace through not only your understanding of these things but your willingness to stand up, put yourself forward and be counted in the bravest of ways. I thank you most sincerely for that.

As you know, I know about the affect these things have on a person. And because I know that and how deeply private, secret and pathological world of persons that can create such havoc in others lives, I know how very much, how very very much you are a changed man.

And in that I am very grateful to you and at the same time so very pleased for you. I wonder, did you consider it the right thing to tell your ex wife these things?


I’ve had to believe the unbelievable to get as far as I did in my understanding and you’ve validated what I I’ve struggled for a long time to understand. And now I can truly accept what I’ve struggled so hard to understand and believe because you’ve validated them for me.

I have absolutely no hope for my wife. As a 60 year old she is now in a world that consists of living with my younger son and as a very close neighbour to her remaining brother. Her mother is a ten minute walk from where she lives. They are all pathologically embittered, passive aggressive people. Her mother is now truly paranoid and headed for dementia and most likely Alzheimer’s if she’s not suffering from it already. So she’s like in a nest where her abnormal behaviour is normal, if that makes any sense.



On the topic of boundaries I think many of us when hurt or abused by our wives look to see why they do such things. We look to see why (we already know the what), and that can include going back into their childhood so we can “fix” them or help them fix themselves.

I walked that path each time my wife hurt me. She had an immense amount of good inside her and I wanted to keep that plus I was deeply in love with her.

But never once did she want to change. I didn’t truly discover how exceedingly hardwired she is until I put up boundaries to protect me from the worse of her behaviour.


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## AFEH

A while back I was looking to become indifferent about my wife, thinking that love and hate are the opposite sides of the same coin and maybe indifference in the middle somewhere.

Blanca responded with no, not indifference, the point to reach is acceptance. The goal is acceptance. It was enlightening for me but I couldn’t accept what I couldn’t understand. So I’ve been on a bit of a journey trying to understand and feel I have reached my goal of understanding thanks a great deal to Alphaomega’s willingness to help me.

So now I understand, all I have to do is accept it! But it’s not ended there yet for me in that I wonder what the heck I was doing with a woman if she truly is as painted, what was my participation in it all? I know I was deeply in love with her and I know she brought me wonderful gifts. I know my life long goal was to always have her by my side. Maybe that’s all it was, all it took for me to let my wife treat me like she did on occasions, love and a dream.

Maybe abusers, emotionally violent people, can only ever be emotionally violent and get away with it with people who truly love them? That kind of makes sense. And if that’s the case I was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and it had nothing whatsoever to do with the person I am. Perhaps just like the victims of her brother’s pathologically embittered, paranoid psychotic behaviour.


I wish I knew about boundaries before though. But if I wasn’t forgiving, empathetic, compassionate had sympathy and feelings for the pain and plights of others I would have been more like my wife and her family than like the person I am. And I’d now be on a path of revenge against my wife to cause her as much pain as I can! It’s a sobering and helpful thought for me.


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## alphaomega

Bob,

It's not that we don't love. It's our coping mechanism that's messed up.

When I was happy, I was really happy. The world was great. I loved my wife. Treated her great. Showered affection upon her. But when I was slighted, it's like I was embittered, and used my silence to wreak emotional havoc upon her. We don't do normal when it comes to dealing with our emotional pain, and let it fester inside us unil it's all we know.

It starts small. We get slighted, we shut own, withold our love. Maybe for a few minutes to start. Then a few hours. Then...all of a sudden, it takes over us...and it's all we know. Remember that the level of embitterment the level that your wife reached took years to develop. After a while....it's all we know.

For me....I learned this in childhood. My parents were alcoholics. And sometimes both emotionally and physically abusive. As a kid....you can't lash out at your parents. If you did....things just got so much worse. So....we internalize it. We wanted to get even with our parents...so we do the only thing we have control over....shutting down the love we give back to our parents. To us....this is how we punished thm for hurting us. It was our revenge. Even the behavior of bringing up past hurt is a learned response. "I remember all the times you hit and hurt me....and this is why I withold my love for you. How does that feel Mom? Or Dad? You like them apples? See! I can hurt you just the same! So there!"

Although everyone is different, these Passive agressive traits are the most similar. Some have them to a larger, more dis functional degree. Others not so much. Sometimes those Passive traits just stop at the fear part. Not talking or shutting down out of fear of more rejection and pain. For others...like myself...I was also in it or the revenge part. Of course...being only five....you don't really understand that the revenge part isn't so effective in the real world. It's almost like getting emotionally stuck in that age and mindset for the rest of your life.

As to your other point. Are we just emotionally violent to those that love us? I would say...no. It just affects those closest to us because...well....your close to us. You have an emotional investment with us, And so become the most confused by our behaviors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

alphaomega said:


> Bob,
> 
> It's not that we don't love. It's our coping mechanism that's messed up.
> 
> When I was happy, I was really happy. The world was great. I loved my wife. Treated her great. Showered affection upon her. But when I was slighted, it's like I was embittered, and used my silence to wreak emotional havoc upon her. We don't do normal when it comes to dealing with our emotional pain, and let it fester inside us unil it's all we know.
> 
> It starts small. We get slighted, we shut own, withold our love. Maybe for a few minutes to start. Then a few hours. Then...all of a sudden, it takes over us...and it's all we know. Remember that the level of embitterment the level that your wife reached took years to develop. After a while....it's all we know.
> 
> For me....I learned this in childhood. My parents were alcoholics. And sometimes both emotionally and physically abusive. As a kid....you can't lash out at your parents. If you did....things just got so much worse. So....we internalize it. We wanted to get even with our parents...so we do the only thing we have control over....shutting down the love we give back to our parents. To us....this is how we punished thm for hurting us. It was our revenge. Even the behavior of bringing up past hurt is a learned response. "I remember all the times you hit and hurt me....and this is why I withold my love for you. How does that feel Mom? Or Dad? You like them apples? See! I can hurt you just the same! So there!"
> 
> Although everyone is different, these Passive agressive traits are the most similar. Some have them to a larger, more dis functional degree. Others not so much. Sometimes those Passive traits just stop at the fear part. Not talking or shutting down out of fear of more rejection and pain. For others...like myself...I was also in it or the revenge part. Of course...being only five....you don't really understand that the revenge part isn't so effective in the real world. *It's almost like getting emotionally stuck in that age and mindset for the rest of your life.*
> 
> As to your other point. Are we just emotionally violent to those that love us? I would say...no. It just affects those closest to us because...well....your close to us. You have an emotional investment with us, And so become the most confused by our behaviors.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I saw that’s where my wife was. She actually hated her mother but deeply loved her father. She modelled her life, the way she wanted to live, based on her father’s behaviour, not her mother’s behaviour. So she “copied” her father in a very deliberate and conscious way. This to do with things like conscientiousness, reliability, hospitability and many other virtues which I loved her for.


What she didn’t see was that she was like her mother in a few ways. The most significant of these was the way she handled her pain and her anger associated with her pain. In very simple terms she chose the path of revenge instead of the path of forgiveness, she witnessed these things as a child with her mother. If her mother had chosen the path of forgiveness, then it’s likely my wife would as well.


Over four decades I got some things wrong and caused my wife pain. But the net result of how she processed her pain was that she betrayed, persecuted and caused a great deal of injustice against me.


The last time round trying to get to the truth through her lies, criticisms, deceits, scapegoating and denials caused me enough pain such that I ended it.


The truly crazy thing in all this for me is that if I didn’t end it she’d still be here with me betraying me on a daily basis and always ready persecute me for something from decades past and to accuse me of something I simply didn’t do!


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## TheCatfish

Fantastic post. I have just recently come to the conclusion that I have no N.U.T.S. I mean, I used to but after 10 years of devotion to my relationship, I am left with none. It is my own fault and out of fear of hurting the feelings of my partner or allowing my partner to alter my views, that my N.U.T.S. have completely disappeared.

So it is now, the moment that I am questioning my relationship and where my future lies that I read this amazing article and I believe it will lead me to once again find them. It may save my relationship or allow me to move on. Either way I feel I am no longer stuck as I now have a tool to move beyond my own entrapment.

Thank you for posting this.


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