# When is divorce OK?



## totallyconfused (Mar 20, 2009)

I found out nearly a year ago that my wife had been unfaithful for years. I thought the lack of intimacy in our marriage was due to her health problems, but she was having an affair and turning away from me. We have 2 young children. (Both mine, but she cheated after the birth of the first and the second.) We've gone to therapy for months. We both understand each other better, but we're still struggling. I found out before Christmas that she had continued to talk with him and continued to lie about it. Both times, she flat out denied it and didn't concede until I insisted she was a liar over and over. If I hadn't know for sure, she would have convinced me.

We've had very frank conversations. She finds me jealous and controlling. There's an element of truth to her feelings, but she also sees everything that way (the result of having had an abusive, controlling boyfriend in high school). I've come to realize I'm a very anxious person (stemming from a nightmare of a childhood between endlessly fighting parents), and when my anxiety rises, I try to control my surroundings (including the ones I love).

She's told me she is no longer in love me. I still love her. Both of us would do anything for our children.

Our therapist suggested we try to figure out what we want at a minimum from marriage. I thought it through and I think I need absolute honesty, fidelity, and (at least emotional) intimacy.

I was getting up the nerve to insist on this a few weeks ago, when she lost her job. She has significant healthcare issues and needs my health coverage. Now we can't afford to go to the therapist.

In my heart, it is incredibly important to me to be an honorable person, to follow through on my commitments, and to do my duty. Despite her infidelity, I feel a duty to honor my marriage vows. I strongly believe that if you chose to bring children in this world, you owe it to them to create the best environment possible. Her continued lying has made my anxiety almost unbearable, and yet I feel like asking for a divorce would be a betrayal of my children, of my vows, and of my duty. I would feel like a total failure.

Is it ethical to divorce if my wife and I are capable of providing a warm, loving environment for them in which they thrive, even if there is not mutual love between us? Is it ethical to divorce my wife if she doesn't love me, if she cheats on me, and if she lies to me, if I love her and she depends on me?

I am in such despair. In many ways, I wish she would just leave. What I really want is for her to love me again. The realist in me says that will never happen.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

totallyconfused said:


> I found out nearly a year ago that my wife had been unfaithful for years. I thought the lack of intimacy in our marriage was due to her health problems, but she was having an affair and turning away from me. ...I found out before Christmas that she had continued to talk with him and continued to lie about it.


Just so you know, your marriage will never make ANY progress whatsoever as long as the other man is in the picture, so the very first thing that HAS TO occur is ending all contact with the other man, forever. She can NEVER, EVER speak to him--not for work and not as friends. Further, ince she has shown that she is more than willing to lie to you to your face, extraordinary measures are reasonable to prove she is not in contact. I would think it's 100% reasonable to install a keylogger on her PC, have no cell phone for 6 months to a year, and change jobs if need be. The difference is that rather than you nagging her, she is the one who broke the commitment and it is on HER to prove to you that she is not in contact--voluntarily--or else in my opinion you have moral and legal grounds for divorce. 



> We've had very frank conversations. She finds me jealous and controlling. There's an element of truth to her feelings, but she also sees everything that way (the result of having had an abusive, controlling boyfriend in high school).


You may be a controlling person--I don't know you--but she has to realize that the natural consequence of repeated lack of transparency and dishonesty is going to be 100% loss of trust and probably human nature to be jealous! Thus it's like poking someone in the eye five times and the sixth time you stab complaining if they try to block it!



> Our therapist suggested we try to figure out what we want at a minimum from marriage. I thought it through and I think I need absolute honesty, fidelity, and (at least emotional) intimacy.


LOL You need a new therapist! You don't want a "minimum" marriage. She made a vow to be faithful to YOU (not to the other man nor to allow another man to meet her needs). Thus it's pretty simple. Is she going to honor her vow and get in this marriage 100% and make it great, loving and passionate? Or is she out? She can not continue to have both, and choosing to not leave the other men = choosing him. Make sense?



> I was getting up the nerve to insist on this a few weeks ago, when she lost her job. She has significant healthcare issues and needs my health coverage. Now we can't afford to go to the therapist.


Well permission to speak freely? Losing your healthcare is the price she pays if she continues to choose another man over you and your marriage. That's not being mean--that is allowing her to experience the natural consequences of her choice. If she picks the other man, HE can provide for her need for healthcare. If she wants the healthcare, part of the cost of that is NEVER, EVER contacting the other man again...*EVER*!



> In my heart, it is incredibly important to me to be an honorable person, to follow through on my commitments, and to do my duty. Despite her infidelity, I feel a duty to honor my marriage vows. I strongly believe that if you chose to bring children in this world, you owe it to them to create the best environment possible. Her continued lying has made my anxiety almost unbearable, and yet I feel like asking for a divorce would be a betrayal of my children, of my vows, and of my duty. I would feel like a total failure.


And I applaud you for being a man of this quality and character! What you've said here is 100% right on the money--and can you tell? I agree with you!



> Is it ethical to divorce if my wife and I are capable of providing a warm, loving environment for them in which they thrive, even if there is not mutual love between us? Is it ethical to divorce my wife if she doesn't love me, if she cheats on me, and if she lies to me, if I love her and she depends on me?


As ethics go, the standard against which I measure is the Bible (although I do try to not be forceful or judgmental--just repeat what it says). From what I can see, you would have moral grounds for divorce due to sexual immorality, and you would be free to remarry and live in peace. She would not have grounds and thus according to the Bible she should remain single if she decides to leave you. (Either way, from what I see, if your wife wants to do the right thing the other man has to go.) 

totallyconfused, I want to encourage you to grow a backbone and be the lighthouse your wife needs to get back to this marriage. It's won't be easy but you are the kind of man who can do this! There are some things you can do to help help her to end the affair... and you will probably have to endure some anger and she won't like it very much. You are the one who would have the right to divorce, and if she depends on you, she should have thought of that when she chose another man huh? But that is not the kind of man you are. You yourself said that you are able to provide a warm, stable environment for your children and you would be willing to care for her! 

So, brother, I would highly encourage you to get ready--gather your courage and strength and lets go into battle for this marriage! I'd be more than willing to help you get through this.


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## totallyconfused (Mar 20, 2009)

The other man is also married and also has kids. He can't support her, as he's apparently not leaving his wife.

I told her shortly after I first found out that she could never talk to him again. She fooled me again. Even if I insist again she never talk, I'd be a fool to think she won't just keep lying.

I want to fight for this marriage, but I don't see how. I want to be in a strong, committed relationship, but I feel duty-bound to stay in this one and I have no hope.


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## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Take the most honorable path for yourself and your children. You know in your gut what is right. The history she has created is HER gift to you and all, not yours. At the same time, don't feel the guilt of not making a decision right away. Don't feel you need to wait until the youngest is 18, but its OK to not make a decision right now. Its ok to end it. Its ok to find true happiness. Its also ok to wait a while and let the right answer come to you.
And you DO need another therapist. No one should be satisfied living with a minimum anything. That is BS.


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## totallyconfused (Mar 20, 2009)

Our kids are wonderful and thriving. My job is going great, while she looks for a new one. We're getting along fine on a day-to-day basis. I'm working my ass off to take care of her and the kids, both at home and at work, which makes me feel useful. And yet, I'm not the slightest bit happy. I'm just so tired and so lonely. I want to have hope that something will rekindle in her heart, but there's just absolutely nothing there. It's like she can't even see me. I hate the thought of year after year of this. I just hate this situation and I'm so jealous of every guy I see who so obviously has a significant other who loves him.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

totallyconfused said:


> The other man is also married and also has kids. He can't support her, as he's apparently not leaving his wife.


This is part of the proof that affairs are "fantasy" and not one bit rooted in reality. The reality is that you provide for her needs of finances and household support and he provides for affection and compliments (or something like that). Your wife may even know in her head that he'll never leave his wife to be with her--but she doesn't care. What she wants is a) to have her that Love Kindler in her life and b) to get that little zing she gets from the thrill of the affair. 




> I told her shortly after I first found out that she could never talk to him again. She fooled me again. Even if I insist again she never talk, I'd be a fool to think she won't just keep lying.


Okay--there is a slight difference here totally. I didn't say "you tell her she can't..." I said she has to want to volunteer to never, *EVER* speak to him again. If need be, take drastic measures to help her accomplish this, like quitting your job, moving, not having internet for 6 months, trading in all cell phones, etc. 

Looking back in hindsight now, I hope you realize that if you "tell her to never talk to him again" what that means to her is "I still want to talk to him so I'll have to be more secretive now." There is no chance this will work until *SHE* wants to go through the pain of no contact, and until SHE willingly agrees that her actions (twice now) mean that she deserves to be watched, recorded, and basically spied on like a hawk until she can prove otherwise--which would reasonably be a LONG, LONG time!

Can you hear the difference between the two? In one example you are telling her what to do then trying to force her to do what you want...and in the other she is willingly admitting what she did and what she needs to do so she doesn't do it anymore. 



> I want to fight for this marriage, but I don't see how. I want to be in a strong, committed relationship, but I feel duty-bound to stay in this one and I have no hope.


Totally, this one CAN BE a strong, committed relationship, but I suspect you'll need to start at the beginning. No I don't mean 'start by dating each other' as that is so old and cliche. I mean that the first times around this marriage was built on the lie that she loved you and was committed to only you...and then the second time was built on the lie that she was listening to you when you told her to never contact again. To start over, the very first #1 thing that has to be done is confirming/proving no contact for a set amount of time (like several months at least). During that time, she will need to go through withdrawal from not having those needs met and missing him. If you do not see tears and withdrawal, then I guarantee you they are in contact somehow! Also during that time, you will need to look at yourself, not her, and start to work on eliminating the Love Extinguishers that you do. Now bear in mind I'm not saying it's your fault or that she's not responsible for her choices--I'm just saying that this is a chance for you to become the man you were intended to be! 

So totally you have children together. You have a home together. You have a past together. BUILD a loving, committed passionate relationship, brick-by-brick, with your wife.


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## stillINshock (Apr 9, 2009)

Have you told her that you feel so 'tired and lonely'? These are very humbling words that pull at the heartstrings in a powerful way. Have you tried (though YOU are not at fault) to drop the ego and just give?

I have found Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice to be very helpful. (I just mentioned it on another post and feel like I should be getting a commission - but seriously it is very helpful stuff.)
Read it TOGETHER. Its worth it. Its all on line. If she wants to repair the marriage, she owes this to you. You will feel strength from it - in whatever form it is meant to be.
Good luck.


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## totallyconfused (Mar 20, 2009)

Couple of questions perhaps folks on this list can point me to.

1) I've heard about the cycle of guilt leading to resentment to anger to belittling the betrayed spouse to guilt on the part of the cheater. Can someone suggest references to learn more about this cycle and how to cope with it?

2) My wife's pattern * seems to be "get angry at me" for a "recurring spousal disagreement" and then act out by cheating or at least engaging in inappropriate online banter. Can someone suggest references to learn more about this cycle and how to cope with it?

Many thanks.

* For the curious, the latest episode when like this. I was tired, annoyed, etc. because she was being pretty harsh all day. At one point, I put some paperwork on top of her purse, when she's asked me not to do that before. Normal little nits between any married couple. She got annoyed at me. I was frustrated with how she'd been acting all day, so I muttered "Don't be rude" under my breath. She was then angry and stormed out of the house to take our child to an event. As soon as she got back, I apologized. She didn't acknowledge it. That night, as soon as the kids were in bed, she got on her computer as usual. (I interpret this to be her nightly defensive mechanism to keep a barrier between us.)

Since she's flat-out lied to me twice, I'm not concerned with periodically spying on her to see if she's betraying me again. (Basically, I know how to use software to sniff packets going to the wireless router and display them on my computer in real time. So, I can spy on her computer usage without having to install a keylogger.) Anyhow, she started chatting with a male friend (not the guy she cheated with). He's an old college buddy and a scumbag who makes blatant sexual propositions in IM chats to her. He was telling her he'd be visiting the state next month and to come over and visit him while he was there. She didn't really encourage him, but she didn't leave the chat and just gently deflected him. In other words, she was angry at me, so she let another guy blatantly hit on her. I'm guessing she does this as a way to deal with her anger and stroke her ego.

All the while she was doing this, I'm in the room. If I didn't know what she was doing, I would have never guessed that she wasn't just IM'ing with an old girlfriend. She's just a good liar.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Don't know how much poking around the forums you have done, but the way in which you present, and the behavior you describe is very familiar to myself and many others here. All you have to do is decide that you want, and deserve better.

Check out this link: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/10676-man-up-books.html

Strongly recommend that you consider 'No More Mr. Nice Guy'


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