# Am I Being Out of Line?



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

My wife is a writer. As such she is involved with various writer groups... One led to a short EA that she got into and out of on her own (to her credit) when she realized it was wrong and what was happening. She's short, thin and very good looking for a woman of 52 and terribly naive when it comes to men and their intentions (another subject for another day). We are totally open about email and fb accounts and even our private journals are open to each other as we have no secrets between us. 

So she has a male, married/retired (early 60's) writer compatriot and they have run a weekend writer's conference for the last few years together (with help from several other people). But after this last one they decided it was too much work for her as she just finished a novel and has a book contract.... His emails and the like seem to getting more "friendly" lately (but not over the top) and they will be at the same writer's conference about 100 miles away the weekend of the 15th/16th. 

When the conference ends he wants to take her to dinner (and pay for it). Usually she goes out in a group of about 8 other writers at that time. He states he wants to go over some seminar ideas as she is teaching one in his place this summer. 

For some reason this just strikes me wrong. Why can't they go out with the group, sit at the end of the table and discuss it? Why can't someone else tag along? Why is he paying for it? I have told her I'd rather not see her have this dinner, and why, the way it's set up but am not sure what she will choose (if he puts pressure on her I think she will probably go with him to dinner as they are working friends). 

Am I being paranoid? Part of me tells me to have a little faith in her and part of me has heart pain over this.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> My wife is a writer. As such she is involved with various writer groups... One led to a short EA that she got into and out of on her own (to her credit) when she realized it was wrong and what was happening. She's short, thin and very good looking for a woman of 52 and terribly naive when it comes to men and their intentions (another subject for another day). We are totally open about email and fb accounts and even our private journals are open to each other as we have no secrets between us.
> 
> So she has a male, married/retired (early 60's) writer compatriot and they have run a weekend writer's conference for the last few years together (with help from several other people). But after this last one they decided it was too much work for her as she just finished a novel and has a book contract.... His emails and the like seem to getting more "friendly" lately (but not over the top) and they will be at the same writer's conference about 100 miles away the weekend of the 15th/16th.
> 
> ...


This speaks volumes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Sounds like a business dinner to me. If he wants her to teach one of his seminars a certain way, I can appreciate his wanting to talk to her in a private setting where they can focus and not be distracted. And since this is at his request, why would he not pay?

At the same time, if you are not comfortable, tell her. Ask if you can go along. Then you will know exactly what goes down.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> This speaks volumes.


To expand a bit, she is a rather timid, librarian type and has a hard time standing up for herself. As such she has a hard time saying 'no'. In fact, she lets people just walk in front of her in lines and won't step up...


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jld said:


> Sounds like a business dinner to me. If he wants her to teach one of his seminars a certain way, I can appreciate his wanting to talk to her in a private setting where they can focus and not be distracted. And since this is at his request, why would he not pay?
> 
> At the same time, if you are not comfortable, tell her. Ask if you can go along. Then you will know exactly what goes down.


I thought about that, but I feel like a bit of a heel intruding like that. I feel I should just either trust her or just flat tell her 'no'.

I would have felt better if he had cleared it with me first.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I thought about that, but I feel like a bit of a heel intruding like that. I feel I should just either trust her or just flat tell her 'no'.
> 
> I would have felt better if he had cleared it with me first.


Well, we are pretty far from the days when that might have happened . . . 

Really, I would just ask to go if you are that uncomfortable. Tell her you need it for your peace of mind. See what she says.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Sounds like a business dinner to me. If he wants her to teach one of his seminars a certain way, *I can appreciate his wanting to talk to her in a private setting where they can focus and not be distracted*. And since this is at his request, why would he not pay?
> 
> At the same time, if you are not comfortable, tell her. Ask if you can go along. Then you will know exactly what goes down.


Not sure a private evening dinner is the most appropriate setting though. He has already expressed his discomfort, which is understandable given her history of an EA.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> When the conference ends he wants to take her to dinner (and pay for it). Usually she goes out in a group of about 8 other writers at that time. *He states he wants to go over some seminar ideas as she is teaching one in his place this summer. *


LOL!

Come on...


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## Marnie (Sep 5, 2014)

This is a tough one. Since she admitted to an EA, I would be questioning her just as you are. But as a woman (also a novel writer) it would annoy me if my husband tried to meddle like this. Also, I am the "too nice" kind of woman who would have a hard time backing out of an engagement like the one your wife has agreed to. If I were her I would have asked you if it was ok before agreeing to it, but she probably assumed it would add fuel to a minor fire.

I would tell her exactly what you wrote in your post: "Part of me tells me to have faith in you, and part of me has heart pain over this." Then be silent. See what she says. Writers tend to be able to put themselves in others' shoes very easily. I wish you the best!


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Brigit said:


> LOL!
> 
> Come on...


Well, not quite as bad as it sounds. 

He was scheduled to teach on a specific topic and its in the program now. Now he cannot make it (going to buy some dog or something like that- he's a bit flaky) ad he asked her to teach the same seminar. As it's his subject and expertise, he has some specific ideas for it and so forth.

I just fail to see the need for a private dinner. He lives in the Seattle area and I don't know if he's making the 5+ hour drive home that night or has a motel for the evening. That's another concern.

See what my first betraying wife has done to me????? I now see everything thru a betrayed's glasses. I hate it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think it's a bad idea. Entirely possible it's a business dinner and nothing more, but it seems like an unnecessary risk to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marnie (Sep 5, 2014)

Is anything else happening in the relationship that would lead you to believe that her heart is not 100% yours?


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Boundary violation 

Spouses with a history of EA, that are naive, that are unable to put their foot down, that succumb to pressure from opposite gender friends that are either equally oblivious to boundaries or evil to the core with an agenda to wreck your marriage and boff your wife are not welcome to take said spouse out to dinner no matter what the bogus excuse for an unnecessary evening dinner. 

There is no need nor wisdom in having evening hour one on one meals with the opposite gender when married especially under said circumstances. 

Wake up


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You are in a rock and a hard place. But really it's your past lack of actions that brought you here. At this point you should tell her that in your opinion the main reason he wants to have dinner with you alone is to get into your pants, and that you are not comfortable with it or her close friendships with men in general, and that she has to decide what is most important to her in life.

Then let her choose and don't act any certain way. Don't negotiate with her.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

The thing here that worries me is that your wife isn't someone who is comfortable standing up for herself. 

It makes sense to me that they would schedule some time to review the course that she is taking over from him- sure, of course. 

However, for any woman in business working with men, it is important that she also is able to realize when a guy is working a non-professional game and that she is comfortable shutting that down firmly, professionally, quickly. (BTW men should be able to do this too, but I think most men have the inner confidence and it's not an issue, generally speaking.)

So, if she goes and he puts on some moves, will she see it? Will she be able to shut it down? She has a history of EA- I can absolutely see what you're uncomfortable, BP.

Also, just personally, I would not let a man pay for a business meeting unless he was the business owner. Otherwise it would either be a business expense or we'd split the bill. That is just a clear-cut boundary to ensure that all parties realize that it would be a business dinner, not a personal get-together. 

I'd look for a win-win here. She needs to be able to do what is required for professional success, and you need to be comfortable. 

My recommendation would be to remind her that she only sees his writer group rarely and it might be more advantageous to go with her group of 8. That opportunity for networking is rare. It would not be wise to sacrifice that yearly event for something that could happen at any time. The social/professional networking is Part 1 of her win.

She could then meet up with the guy via Skype or Facetime, pretty much at any time. So she would still get the meeting she needs, Part 2 of her Win.

Your win: no dinner with just her and another guy. You are comfortable, Big Win.

That's just one idea. If you try to approach it as a Win-Win she will probably be more willing to work with you. My husband approached me, saying "I have no reason not to trust you, you have always been honest and have done nothing wrong. This is my issue because of my past (he was also a BS.) I need your help here" and we mapped out strategies/agreements for my business travel. It was the total opposite of "controlling."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

After an affair of any kind, a WS can't engage in behaviors that risk trust again.

She had an affair in this exact environment and should never place her marriage at risk by taking chances in this area.

Private dinners should be out. Your marriage should be the priority if she wants to keep it, especially after she already seriously damaged it.

Being too "nice" is not nice at all when it gets you into crappy situations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

IMO, once a spouse has cheated, which your spouse has (EA), they lose certain privileges that otherwise they would have in a relationship, and this situation would be one of them.

Private dinner with a guy who isn't her Dad or brother ? Nope, try again.

Her being naive is not an excuse.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Marnie said:


> Is anything else happening in the relationship that would lead you to believe that her heart is not 100% yours?


Good question.

The short answer is 'no'.

The complex one is 'probably no'.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Marnie said:


> This is a tough one. Since she admitted to an EA, I would be questioning her just as you are. But as a woman (also a novel writer) it would annoy me if my husband tried to meddle like this. Also, I am the "too nice" kind of woman who would have a hard time backing out of an engagement like the one your wife has agreed to. If I were her I would have asked you if it was ok before agreeing to it, but she probably assumed it would add fuel to a minor fire.
> 
> I would tell her exactly what you wrote in your post: "Part of me tells me to have faith in you, and part of me has heart pain over this." Then be silent. See what she says. Writers tend to be able to put themselves in others' shoes very easily. I wish you the best!


Sage advice.

And from a writer!


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> Well, not quite as bad as it sounds.
> 
> He was scheduled to teach on a specific topic and its in the program now. Now he cannot make it (going to buy some dog or something like that- he's a bit flaky) ad he asked her to teach the same seminar. As it's his subject and expertise, he has some specific ideas for it and so forth.
> 
> ...


Let him email her some lesson plans. Having dinner to discuss this stuff is such a line. SUCH A LINE.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

She and I have had a couple of discussions about this and I will make it a bit more pointed when I get home tonight. 

As any BS knows, when one has been betrayed it is so hard to establish trust for anyone. It makes me feel guilty sometimes as I 'spot check' up on her at times whenever I'm feeling something isn't right. Every little thing that looks suspicious makes me concerned- and I used to be "Mr. Trusting" until my first wife had her betrayals. 

Some funny stories I could tell about how some of my suspicions were "right" but ended up being "wrong".


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

It's 2015... We live in a modern world with many modern methods of communication that do not necessitate an evening dinner alone. Phone calls, e-mail, Skype/Facetime, etc. He can accomplish what he needs to with your wife professionally in a variety of ways. He chose to invite her to dinner alone. Maybe his intentions are pure, maybe they're not. Regardless, if it makes you uncomfortable, there should be no debate. If she values you as her husband, she will respect that and address the situation accordingly.

There is no reason for her to share any of the intricacies of your marriage or it's ups and downs with this person. She can simply inform him that something came up and she is no longer available for dinner, but she can suggest to him any one of the above mentioned means of communication to accomplish what needs to be done. It really should be that simple.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

SoVeryLost said:


> It's 2015... We live in a modern world with many modern methods of communication that do not necessitate an evening dinner alone. Phone calls, e-mail, Skype/Facetime, etc. He can accomplish what he needs to with your wife professionally in a variety of ways. He chose to invite her to dinner alone. Maybe his intentions are pure, maybe they're not. Regardless, if it makes you uncomfortable, there should be no debate. If she values you as her husband, she will respect that and address the situation accordingly.
> 
> There is no reason for her to share any of the intricacies of your marriage or it's ups and downs with this person. She can simply inform him that something came up and she is no longer available for dinner, but she can suggest to him any one of the above mentioned means of communication to accomplish what needs to be done. It really should be that simple.


I would agree with this in general, but when you're over 50 you tend to not adopt the new way of doing things. Some do, but most don't. I don't Skype and rarely text. If I want to communicate with someone I call or go see them. Heck, I even still send letters.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

My H had an EA and dinners alone with females is now on the no-fly list. That contributed to the start of his A, so it's off the table. That was agreed upon by both of us during R. Dinner meetings hold a perception that other types of meetings do not. And he's paying! In my world, that sounds awfully lot like a date.

If she's already had an EA in this exact environment, and has trouble standing up for herself, she has no reason to go alone to a dinner with a man who you say has already sent borderline questionable communications.

You have already received some good suggestions for alternatives. Go with one of them. Be honest with your wife.

Here's the thing, it's no longer all about her. Sure, she may now be trustworthy and nothing will happen. However, it is 100% certain that you will be tense, nervous and upset the whole time she's away. When she comes back, you will wonder what may have happened. That's what happens to a BS. The FWS should want to limit that. It's called a consequence to having an affair.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

yeah_right said:


> Dinner meetings hold a perception that other types of meetings do not. And he's paying! In my world, that sounds awfully lot like a date.
> 
> If she's already had an EA in this exact environment, and has trouble standing up for herself, she has no reason to go alone to a dinner with a man who you say has already sent borderline questionable communications.


Agreed 100%.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

yeah_right said:


> Here's the thing, *it's no longer all about her*. Sure, she may now be trustworthy and nothing will happen. However, it is 100% certain that you will be tense, nervous and upset the whole time she's away. When she comes back, you will wonder what may have happened. That's what happens to a BS. The FWS should want to limit that. It's called a consequence to having an affair.


:iagree::iagree:


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

SoVeryLost said:


> It's 2015... We live in a modern world with many modern methods of communication that do not necessitate an evening dinner alone. Phone calls, e-mail, Skype/Facetime, etc. He can accomplish what he needs to with your wife professionally in a variety of ways. He chose to invite her to dinner alone. Maybe his intentions are pure, maybe they're not. Regardless, *if it makes you uncomfortable, there should be no debate. If she values you as her husband, she will respect that and address the situation accordingly.*
> There is no reason for her to share any of the intricacies of your marriage or it's ups and downs with this person. She can simply inform him that something came up and she is no longer available for dinner, but she can suggest to him any one of the above mentioned means of communication to accomplish what needs to be done. It really should be that simple.


:iagree:

(in bold especially)
that's what a boundary is. something that makes a spouse feel uncomfortable or a bit disrespected. no one on one dinners with the opposite sex - a very reasonable marital boundary IMO. and this includes work-related dinners. there 10 or so alternatives in order to consult on the matter at hand. Even a business lunch (rather than a dinner) would be much more apropriate IMO. especially if it takes place in a public cafeteria (e.g. where people get lunch during a workshop)


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP:
a slight tangent here here, but I'm always curious how people know that their spouse' affair as ONLY emotional, and not at all physical.
certainly one way is if the two people never had a chance to be in proximity. is that the case with your wife's EA?


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## Marnie (Sep 5, 2014)

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> 
> (in bold especially)
> that's what a boundary is. something that makes a spouse feel uncomfortable or a bit disrespected. no one on one dinners with the opposite sex - a very reasonable marital boundary IMO. and this includes work-related dinners. there 10 or so alternatives in order to consult on the matter at hand. Even a business lunch (rather than a dinner) would be much more apropriate IMO. especially if it takes place in a public cafeteria (e.g. where people get lunch during a workshop)


I don't know. I'd never sign up for this kind of dinner with another man (especially in her case, after having committed an EA), so maybe I'm being naive, but I think the wife shouldn't have to follow the husband's orders on who she can dine with. Ideally she wouldn't do it to begin with, but something about following the husband's orders makes me think she will only become resentful and feel controlled. 

Ultimately, life is short, and it's painful to put so much energy into monitoring and attempting to control another person's behavior. It seems like this is issue is merely the symptom of a much larger problem of trust. You might control whether or not she dines with that man, but will that make you trust her more?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP:
> a slight tangent here here, but I'm always curious how people know that their spouse' affair as ONLY emotional, and not at all physical.
> certainly one way is if the two people never had a chance to be in proximity. is that the case with your wife's EA?


For that I am taking her word for it. But I have my doubts.

Short version- fellow writer knew she also had good skills setting up a blog as not only has she done a few for herself but also wrote a book for setting up blogs for schools. He had been sending her some flattering emails and then wanted her to come to his place for a day to help him set up a blog. To that I forbid her to go. So they met at a coffee place and spent the afternoon setting up his blog. After that nothing. No 'thank you' emails… nothing. That really concerned me and I started monitoring but it is so easy to avoid being monitored… I found out they had met for some lunches and dinners and I was convinced they had a weekend together at the coast (but later confirmed they had not and my info was an incredible coincidence- and I went to great lengths to confirm that). But along the way she really felt things were going wrong with their "friendship and went to speak with a close friend of ours who counsels people at church and he told her to stop having any contact with this guy immediately- and she did. On the one hand I know she feels poorly about it all, but she has an incredible ability to compartmentalize and move forward. I think she developed it from a very abusive first husband.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Sounds like she's a good candidate for reading "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty." 

Go buy it for her.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> For that I am taking her word for it. But I have my doubts.
> 
> Short version- fellow writer knew she also had good skills setting up a blog as not only has she done a few for herself but also wrote a book for setting up blogs for schools. He had been sending her some flattering emails and then wanted her to come to his place for a day to help him set up a blog. To that I forbid her to go. So they met at a coffee place and spent the afternoon setting up his blog. After that nothing. No 'thank you' emails… nothing. That really concerned me and I started monitoring but it is so easy to avoid being monitored… I found out they had met for some lunches and dinners and I was convinced they had a weekend together at the coast (but later confirmed they had not and my info was an incredible coincidence- and I went to great lengths to confirm that). But along the way she really felt things were going wrong with their "friendship and went to speak with a close friend of ours who counsels people at church and he told her to stop having any contact with this guy immediately- and she did. On the one hand I know she feels poorly about it all, but she has an incredible ability to compartmentalize and move forward. I think she developed it from a very abusive first husband.


I can understand your concern. The timeline and what has occurred appears to be presenting itself again with the seemingly innocent business dinner the other fellow is willing to pay for. 

Your W does not see the potential for history to repeat itself? I think it would be best to rerun the history to your W and see if she puts the puzzle together.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Marnie said:


> I don't know. I'd never sign up for this kind of dinner with another man (especially in her case, after having committed an EA), so maybe I'm being naive, but I think the wife shouldn't have to follow the husband's orders on who she can dine with. Ideally she wouldn't do it to begin with, but something about following the husband's orders makes me think she will only become resentful and feel controlled.
> 
> Ultimately, life is short, and it's painful to put so much energy into monitoring and attempting to control another person's behavior. It seems like this is issue is merely the symptom of a much larger problem of trust. You might control whether or not she dines with that man, but will that make you trust her more?


rather than a 'I forbid you' type statement - I think one can envison more of a 'I'd rather you not do this because.....'
that's the more effective/reasonable approach to take on discussion of marital boundaries.

it then depends on the context and history of the relationship how a spouse would/should react when their partner crosses a boundary. I think a spouse that consistently crosses their SO's boundaries should be shown some consequences though.....


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> I can understand your concern. The timeline and what has occurred appears to be presenting itself again with the seemingly innocent business dinner the other fellow is willing to pay for.
> 
> Your W does not see the potential for history to repeat itself? I think it would be best to rerun the history to your W and see if she puts the puzzle together.


She does, I think, but because of knowing him for several years and nothing more than a good working relationship she simply isn't willing to think it of him.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> rather than a 'I forbid you' type statement - I think one can envison more of a 'I'd rather you not do this because.....'
> that's the more effective/reasonable approach to take on discussion of marital boundaries.
> 
> it then depends on the context and history of the relationship how a spouse would/should react when their partner crosses a boundary. I think a spouse that consistently crosses their SO's boundaries should be shown some consequences though.....


And that's my approach. Strongly reminding her of how men really are and that there are lines that simply aren't crossed out of respect for all concerned.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Personally, I'd just let her decide. And expect full accountability of that.

If she thinks that making you worried after the admitted EA is worth it, I would find that very telling for you. Especially because there's little in it for her, and a lot in it for the other guy even if it's on the up and up.

I would also be curious why, after going through all the work extracting herself from an EA, she would even approach that kind of thing ever again. Even for just her own sake.

Very telling, this.


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## Marnie (Sep 5, 2014)

marduk said:


> I would also be curious why, after going through all the work extracting herself from an EA, she would even approach that kind of thing ever again. Even for just her own sake.
> 
> Very telling, this.


Agreed!


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

Marnie said:


> I don't know. I'd never sign up for this kind of dinner with another man (especially in her case, after having committed an EA), so maybe I'm being naive, but I think *the wife shouldn't have to follow the husband's orders on who she can dine with.* Ideally she wouldn't do it to begin with, but something about following the husband's orders makes me think she will only become resentful and feel controlled.
> 
> Ultimately, life is short, and *it's painful to put so much energy into monitoring and attempting to control another person's behavior.* It seems like this is issue is merely the symptom of a much larger problem of trust. You might control whether or not she dines with that man, but will that make you trust her more?


If the WS spouse is truly remorseful and committed to R, it's not really force. They should WANT to maintain good marital boundaries. If the BS suggests it's not a good idea to have dinner alone with someone questionable, the WS should say "Yeah, that makes sense." They have shown weakness and boundaries can help protect the marriage, in the same way an alcoholic should avoid happy hours. If the WS feels that boundaries are just controls, then perhaps they aren't a good candidate for R after all. It means they are still putting their own desires above that of the spouse they have hurt. 

If a dinner with some flirty single dude is more important than the emotions of a spouse they have hurt, then that speaks volumes of her commitment to her BS.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> She does, I think, but because of knowing him for several years and nothing more than a good working relationship she simply isn't willing to think it of him.


And when it comes to pass that this colleague is seeing more than a dinner he is paying for what would your W reaction be? She can't say no for fear of what? Hurting the colleague? Has no issue hurting you though?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

marduk said:


> Personally, I'd just let her decide. And expect full accountability of that.
> 
> If she thinks that making you worried after the admitted EA is worth it, I would find that very telling for you. Especially because there's little in it for her, and a lot in it for the other guy even if it's on the up and up.
> 
> ...


Trying to be nice to wife here, but I think it's because she is always convinced no guy would ever chase her. Also, due to her mousiness, she is always agreeable.


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## SoVeryLost (May 14, 2012)

It's not about a wife being ordered around or restricted. Nor is it about someone who just can't find it in her to say "no." You mentioned you're both in your 50s? Mousy or not, she's a grown adult. A married, grown adult. Time to start behaving like one. Stop making excuses for her. People do want they want to do. If someone told her to jump off a cliff, would she be able to say no to that? I would assume so. So why can't she say no to a male colleague out of respect for her husband? 

People want to throw theories and tactics around, but it's much more simplistic than that. The old adage, "actions speak louder than words" applies here. Tell her this meeting makes you uncomfortable. You can't chain her up in the basement. She has her own free will. If she chooses to go despite your feelings, then it's time to re-evaluate things.

Perhaps I missed this, but have you two been through marriage counseling? Especially after the EA? It seems that would be a benefit to you both. For you to have a safe environment to convey your levels of distrust given past indiscretions, for her to learn effective methods to set boundaries, and for the two of you to strengthen your bond as husband and wife. If she had an EA, and possibly a PA (though not confirmed), perhaps it's time to give this some thought.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Marnie said:


> I don't know. I'd never sign up for this kind of dinner with another man (especially in her case, after having committed an EA), so maybe I'm being naive, but I think the wife shouldn't have to follow the husband's orders on who she can dine with. Ideally she wouldn't do it to begin with, but something about following the husband's orders makes me think she will only become resentful and feel controlled.
> 
> Ultimately, life is short, and it's painful to put so much energy into monitoring and attempting to control another person's behavior. It seems like this is issue is merely the symptom of a much larger problem of trust. You might control whether or not she dines with that man, but will that make you trust her more?


You are framing it wrong.

If you betray your spouse and they give you another chance then being an idiot with that chance and dining with whoever you want will simply end your marriage.

My wife never even cheated and she would not accept a dinner alone with another man. I don't order her to do a damn thing. She thinks remaining married to me is desirable. Same goes for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

thatbpguy said:


> Trying to be nice to wife here, but I think it's because she is always convinced no guy would ever chase her. Also, due to her mousiness, she is always agreeable.


That all sounds very convenient.


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## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

I don't know your wife, but I do know women. There's no such thing as a naive woman. I mean that in principle not in raw numbers. Once you start thinking a woman is naive, you put her on a pedastal, and you turn a blind eye to situations where they should be open. Women are much more emotionally intelligent then men. Their intuition is much better. They can usually tell when a guy has interest in them. beyond the levels of friendship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Tubbalard said:


> I don't know your wife, but I do know women. There's no such thing as a naive woman. I mean that in principle not in raw numbers. Once you start thinking a woman is naive, you put her on a pedastal, and you turn a blind eye to situations where they should be open. Women are much more emotionally intelligent then men. Their intuition is much better. They can usually tell when a guy has interest in them. beyond the levels of friendship.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're speaking in generalities. My wife is quirky in several ways.


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

Interesting reading this. Similar to my situation. Mrs has EA with work colleague. Tried to convince me that "1 to 1" meals are acceptable. Boundaries were laid and no 1 to 1s in restaurants etc.

It amazes me when I hear spouses think it acceptable to cover up dates as "1 to 1s"


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

You are her spouse. You are uncomfortable. That's it!
No if's ands or buts.
You are uncomfortable. She should strive to make you comfortable.
She had an EA? She has no say. You can be as controlling as you like.
It's your right. She doesn't like it? She can leave the marriage.
She wants to be resentful? You can leave the marriage.
A boundary is a boundary. Cross it and you get consequences.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> Trying to be nice to wife here.


Too much so and it is creating boundary issues, toxic people happy to wreck your marriage and family. Put protect your wife ahead of be nice to her. That is your responsibility. It's not nice to allow someone to make mistakes when you are in a position to help her avoid it.



thatbpguy said:


> she is always agreeable.


Good then she should agree to stop violating reasonable boundaries. What you meant is she agrees with the last person she speaks to because she can't stick to a promise she makes to you for instance to not contact her EA partner.



DoneWithHurting said:


> You are her spouse. You are uncomfortable. That's it!
> No if's ands or buts.
> You are uncomfortable. She should strive to make you comfortable.
> She had an EA? She has no say. You can be as controlling as you like.
> ...


:iagree:


Toooooo paaaaassssiiiivvveee at your own peril


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

So after we discussed things again last night I did lay down the law- if there is more then just the 2 of you, fine. Otherwise, it's a date and unacceptable. I will have her phone VAR set and I have a fair amount of confidence she will do as I request.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

You came here for advice. Let the record show I still think you are way too passive. 

She should have told her friend a firm "no I wont be able to buy the book written by my EA partner as that might be misinterpreted by him as an excuse to encourage him to resume pursuit."

"Fair amount of confidence" shouldn't cut it. 

It is your choice, but I would gather up all your buddies and intervene on you to put your foot down more firmly and agree to some OBVIOUS boundaries, no more ignoring the possibility of unsavory motives of other men, no more no contact violations and no one on one dates with the opposite gender. Business with the opposite gender needs to be conducting in a setting that is not able to be misinterpreted by anyone under any circumstances.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think the var is a sneaky move. If you don't trust her, the honorable thing would be to come right out and tell her.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jld said:


> I think the var is a sneaky move. If you don't trust her, the honorable thing would be to come right out and tell her.


This is a very fair point.

But my response is this...

I do "trust" her, but I don't trust her ability to not be swayed by people she thinks are safe. What she thinks is safe I see red flags. So I remind her marriage may be about trust, and she is asking for some from me, but I have seen the other side and I know men angling in far better than she can.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> This is a very fair point.
> 
> But my response is this...
> 
> I do "trust" her, but I don't trust her ability to not be swayed by people she thinks are safe. What she thinks is safe I see red flags. So I remind her marriage may be about trust, and she is asking for some from me, but I have seen the other side and I know men angling in far better than she can.


You cannot go with her to the conference?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

thread the needle said:


> You came here for advice. Let the record show I still think you are way too passive...


I have heard that loud and clear from a few.

But I might remind you that this passive person beat one of my first wife's bf's and was going to to bf #3 but let him off the hook for a technical reason. I have also called this Sam guy and offered to come down and explain my position with my fists to his face. 

I am not a passive person.

That said, this is a relationship and my wife is damaged goods from a very abusive first husband. Kicking her around is counter-productive. She is intelligent and we discuss and converse very well together. I get far more traction for communicating with her than otherwise (unlike my first wife). 

I've laid my case out to her. She gets it. Now, it's up to her. But as I am also damaged goods from a betraying spouse that was the true love of my life so now this stuff always works me up. As such I have resorted to a VAR in her purse. 

My other options are to go with her (I think a poor idea as it screams to her I have zero trust and have to babysit you) or do absolutely nothing (after being betrayed, this isn't an option as I will go nuts-o wondering. Also, if Sam or John get out of line she will be very hesitant to tell me). So this is, to me, my best option.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jld said:


> You cannot go with her to the conference?


I can (in fact, we have talked about going down the night before, getting a motel, and having a nice dinner out and I'd head home in my car Saturday), but see my post above.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I can (in fact, we have talked about going down the night before, getting a motel, and having a nice dinner out and I'd head home in my car Saturday), but see my post above.


I think that var option is a bad choice. How do you think she would react if she found out?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jld said:


> I think that var option is a bad choice. How do you think she would react if she found out?


I'd have a LOT of explaining to do.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I'd have a LOT of explaining to do.


This is the thing. You know it's not right. You know it does not make you feel good about yourself. Why would you want to be that kind of person?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jld said:


> This is the thing. You know it's not right. You know it does not make you feel good about yourself. Why would you want to be that kind of person?


To me, it's the lesser of all evils. 

I _want_ to trust her. Hell, I _should _trust her. But she has slipped once and I am damaged goods from by first betraying wife. 

jld, I feel as if I'm in a no win situation and I feel crappy about it. So I'm holding my nose and sending her off with a VAR. I feel like a schmuck, but I just _have_ to know. If not, it'll eat at me. It's what I have become after everything that has happened to me.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

thatbpguy said:


> I have heard that loud and clear from a few.
> 
> But I might remind you that this passive person beat one of my first wife's bf's and was going to to bf #3 but let him off the hook for a technical reason. I have also called this Sam guy and offered to come down and explain my position with my fists to his face.
> 
> ...


First and foremost, I would wish no one the pain you have endured in your lost love. The only point is to help you avoid a repeat in the future. 

It does beg the question though, were boundaries too casual in that relationship also?

Full credit for the beat downs and phone calls and being assertive and the like. That is not passive behavior. The boundary setting is the passive behavior. 

The reason beat downs and phone calls and upsetting things keep happening is a result of the boundaries not being firm and violations not being called out and your wife not comprehending their firmness because they are not firm since she just broke one and they were no consequences.

Despite your assertiveness in regard to confrontation with these men, where is that assertiveness when it comes to not being heard by your wife about the motives of unsavory men in pursuit, about no contact means NO CONTACT as in ZERO and that is NOT NEGOTIABLE and your wife thinking after an EA that having one on one dinners with another man is a red flag not to be ignored REGARDLESS of her naiveté. 

Why is the no contact agreement violation not addressed if you are not passive and are firm about boundaries to protect your marriage from your wife's naiveté and inability to put her foot up someone's arse?

In no way did I miss the assertiveness towards other men. What it seems you are missing, is those outcomes would not be necessary if the boundaries were firm non-negotiable so no man was inviting his nose under your tent. 

All the best no matter what you decide. 

I will leave it there so not to beat the horse


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

thread the needle said:


> It does beg the question though, were boundaries too casual in that relationship also?
> 
> The boundary setting is the passive behavior.
> 
> ...


All good points.

Boundaries are only as good as those who keep them. Also, there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. I also want to respect her and be respected, so I walk this line.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

If it were my wife, under the circumstances you have outlined, I would say "No, you are not doing that. It is very hard for men and women to be just friends, unless (at least) the woman finds the man unattractive. Given your former EA, I can't allow you to take the risk of it going bad."


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> To me, it's the lesser of all evils.
> 
> I _want_ to trust her. Hell, I _should _trust her. But she has slipped once and I am damaged goods from by first betraying wife.
> 
> jld, I feel as if I'm in a no win situation and I feel crappy about it. So I'm holding my nose and sending her off with a VAR. I feel like a schmuck, but I just _have_ to know. If not, it'll eat at me. It's what I have become after everything that has happened to me.


Then tell her. Be honest about it.

BP, you seem to have a good heart. Expose that heart to her as honestly and openly as you are to me. Tell her you need to feel your own heart is being protected and her actions are not doing that.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

thatbpguy, I do not think you are being out of line at all.

I have read nearly all your past posts and have formed the following picture of your wife (and I may be way off but here goes):



She has a very relaxed view of sex - its something that she easily does with friends and with not a lot of emotion attached to the act.


That having been said, she does enjoy it even if she protests otherwise and would happily engage in it with someone that she is even mildly attracted to.


She does not respect the boundaries that you set easily and always finds reasons to occasionally not comply.


She seems to be generally attracted to men in her industry (writing) even more so than she is to you. You and her just happened to be good friends who hooked up and sort of married because it felt right and comfortable.


She is smart enough to understand that what she is doing is not acceptable (in general and to you in particular).


If she ever did engage in extra marital sex or affairs (2 different things in her mind probably), she could easily keep it from you without guilting too much about it because after all she is married to you because you two get on so well and these affairs don't really mean that much.


I know the above is harsh to hear and as I said, I could be completely wrong. Its based on what I have read from you and because of that, I would say this going to dinner with this other guy is wrong, buying a book from the other [email protected] is also wrong and you are more than justified to monitor what she is up to.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

jld said:


> Then tell her. Be honest about it.
> 
> BP, you seem to have a good heart. Expose that heart to her as honestly and openly as you are to me. Tell her you need to feel your own heart is being protected and her actions are not doing that.


I think I have conveyed this to her. But as she wouldn't want to hurt or bother me, I am not so sure she'd report much back. When I had enough evidence on the EA I directly confronted her and she couldn't even answer me as she knew it would be painful. 

So while I am 100% appreciative and agree with you, my best judgement is to do this.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> So after we discussed things again last night I did lay down the law- if there is more then just the 2 of you, fine. Otherwise, it's a date and unacceptable. I will have her phone VAR set and I have a fair amount of confidence she will do as I request.


but what was her response back to you? e.g. did she say "OK. absolutely, I won't go if its just him." or was she more vague noncommital?

from what you said it doesn't sound like there's much stopping you from going with her. surely she knows you still have trust issues with her - justifiably. but you should focus on the chance you guys will have to be together, have a little fun, stay over a couple extra days....whatever. secondly you might be able to assess, to some degree, how she is acting around her male colleagues. get a feel for just how sincere her efforts to regain your trust are.....


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> I am not a passive person.


In context he was obviously talking about your wife. It is not a conundrum nor a contradiction to be both at the same time. 

As someone who has read many, if not all, of your posts you are too passive with her.

I'm not going to waste your time, or anyone else, getting quotes, but everything with your wife is naive, accidental and quirky. Sorry, there is a certain point, after all of these issues, years and talks a person knows EXACTLY what they are doing.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I think I have conveyed this to her. But as she wouldn't want to hurt or bother me, I am not so sure she'd report much back. When I had enough evidence on the EA I directly confronted her and she couldn't even answer me as she knew it would be painful.
> 
> So while I am 100% appreciative and agree with you, my best judgement is to do this.


Then eyes wide open to what you are risking, not only if she finds out, but by knowing, yourself, what you have consented to doing.

I think you are better than this, BP.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> *I can (in fact, we have talked about going down the night before, getting a motel, and having a nice dinner out* and I'd head home in my car Saturday), but see my post above.


Do this!!! This is the BEST idea, IMO.

Go, drive with her, spend time with her, let her show you off. You can eliminate all the threats right there, right then.

You _know_ that has a hard time standing up for herself. So go and be her rock and remove the risk entirely.

Go and be charming, be supportive, have fun! Don't go as her captor, go as her supporter.

This is a 10000x better than the VAR. The VAR is a risk game. It is saying, "I want to see what you are going to do," and the consequences if she is weak are catastrophic to you and your marriage.

How often do these risks show up? It doesn't sound like your wife is someone who is out and about every day, finding risky situations to get into. 

This situation is a 2-fold risk- the former EA will be there, high risk one. Another guy asking for 1:1 time. Well, when you are there YOU can buy the book and YOU can be the 2:1 for the dinner (which probably won't even happen if you show up.)

If you run cost-benefit ratio, what exactly is the cost to you going? We know there is a lot of benefit- it is security for you and your wife.

What is the cost for a VAR? Even if it turns up clean, there is an emotional cost to you, waiting, wondering, listening to it, thinking about the lengths you just went to. 

Think about it.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

manfromlamancha said:


> thatbpguy, I do not think you are being out of line at all.
> 
> I have read nearly all your past posts and have formed the following picture of your wife (and I may be way off but here goes):
> 
> ...


I'd like to respond point by point- not to draw this all out, but to set straight my wife…

1. She does have a relaxed view of sex and feels it is part and parcel of a friendship- BUT, she also understands fully that it is taboo when married. No issue there.

2. I think where she gets lost in that she doesn't understand or recognize what an EA really is. To her, it's a friendship. To him, he's after her for sex. She simply misses what the guy is up to. 

3. I think she reluctantly tries to comply, but wants to apply her own set of "in the moment" rules. As an example, when Sam was all over her at last summer's conference, she (and her friends verify this) did nothing to encourage him, but felt the need to at least be polite despite his fawning all over her. I would have preferred she simply excuse herself and walk away, but to her this is too rude.

4. Trust me, she is attracted to me. I never thought I'd see the day I struggled to keep up sexually with a wife, but she is deeply affectionate. I think the issue with her writer friends is that she wants to feel accepted by them. Almost all of them are novelists and she is non fiction education material and poetry (2 published poetry books and won a national contest 2 years ago. Her first full novel is currently with publishers.) and she feels as if they don’t have the same respect for her as a result. So she works hard for their acceptance.

5. Yes. But it is modified by the above.

6. That is my #1 issue. One time we were talking and based on a TAM debate, I asked her the TAM debate question- if you had sex with another man, would you tell me? "Never", she said. That answer, based with my first wife's betrayals makes me overly worried at times.


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## yeah_right (Oct 23, 2013)

RoseAglow said:


> Do this!!! This is the BEST idea, IMO.
> 
> Go, drive with her, spend time with her, let her show you off. You can eliminate all the threats right there, right then.
> 
> ...


This solves everything. Find solutions to any reasons why you can't go. Seriously, this is your MARRIAGE and your PEACE OF MIND you are fighting for. It's worth the effort.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

I love the idea of going with her and creating sweet space for both of you as support, not babysitting. Give her you to come home to and at the same time eliminating the risk of her going off with him if it became a risk.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

yeah_right said:


> This solves everything. Find solutions to any reasons why you can't go. Seriously, this is your MARRIAGE and your PEACE OF MIND you are fighting for. It's worth the effort.


True, but I want her to make the right decisions. I want her to understand my concerns and then follow up appropriately. In a way, this is a good test for her and for us.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> True, but I want her to make the right decisions. I want her to understand my concerns and then follow up appropriately. In a way, this is a good test for her and for us.


I agree as an end goal, but its ok to come along side her to cultivate that over time.

Those of us who are abuse survivors tend to need a bit of a learning curve and support til we can do it on our own.

This falls under the compassionate Alpha for me. You are being assertive and not allowing another man to make inroads, until she is strong enough to do that herself, but you are doing it in a compassionate way that doesn't make her a fool or a child. You are reasonably assessing her and seeing her need for a bit of support, but she doesn't have to become your daughter.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> I agree as an end goal, but its ok to come along side her to cultivate that over time.
> 
> Those of us who are abuse survivors tend to need a bit of a learning curve and support til we can do it on our own.
> 
> This falls under the compassionate Alpha for me. * You are being assertive and not allowing another man to make inroads, until she is strong enough to do that herself, but you are doing it in a compassionate way that doesn't make her a fool or a child. You are reasonably assessing her and seeing her need for a bit of support, but she doesn't have to become your daughter*.


:iagree:


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> Do this!!! This is the BEST idea, IMO.
> 
> Go, drive with her, spend time with her, let her show you off. You can eliminate all the threats right there, right then.
> 
> ...


Reservations have been made.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> Reservations have been made.


That is awesome!!! Have a great time. :smthumbup:

(And BTW I am jealous. I wish my husband could come with me on my work trips!)


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> Reservations have been made.


:smthumbup:


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## tonygunner007 (Apr 24, 2015)

jld said:


> Sounds like a business dinner to me. If he wants her to teach one of his seminars a certain way, I can appreciate his wanting to talk to her in a private setting where they can focus and not be distracted. And since this is at his request, why would he not pay?
> 
> At the same time, if you are not comfortable, tell her. Ask if you can go along. Then you will know exactly what goes down.


I agree with her.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Super cool bpguy  Have fun!!


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## knightRider (Dec 31, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> Reservations have been made.


I like it. Subtle alpha behaviour with politeness and you can charm the Mrs as well as keep possible threats at bay.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

bpguy:

I assume will you be able to attend part or all of the conference?? i.e. not just hang with your wife in the evenings....

Do you flirt or are you out of practice? sorry......just wondering if you have ever given your wife a taste of her own medicine. if you paid a lot of attention to one or two female writers there, would she care?


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