# Boundaries



## thomas79 (Jan 16, 2018)

I wrote recently about how my wife of 17 years had an online affair. This was in light of a troubled marriage consisting of a lot of mental health issues.

I am moving this specific ask out of my original post as I don't want to muddy the waters.

I still don't know whether she genuinely wants a or loves me. She says it but I rarely feel like she means it through her actions.

Intimacy is an issue, as is affection, compassion and communication. Now trust and respect are clearly out of the window too.

Saturday is the day when I have decided to have the talk, since the kids are out at their grandparents house.

What sort of boundaries have worked for people and how far do you go ?

Getting therapy will definately be one of them, as will coming off the offending social media site.

Any other tips would be welcome.

I know I can't force her to love and want me, I want it to come from her.

The end game to this is establishing whether there is anything left worth working on and under boundaries as the starting platfrom.

Thanks in advance.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> She commits to a) ongoing therapy for herself, b) ongoing counseling for the two of you, and c) 100% transparency in all things — _and_ gives up ALL social media, now and forever — or you divorce.
> 
> I know you feel that this is a complex issue, but you need to make it just that simple for her.
> 
> Oh, and it’s her fault.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

If she isn't showing you with actions that she loves you, then I'm sorry, she doesn't love you.

The same holds true for respect, trust, transparency, etc... 

People who have deep and profound love for others have no difficulty showing it in some fashion. It might take education to know what love language they show it in, but if you're unable to really identify any love offered, and in the quantities expected from a spouse/SO, then the love is simply not there.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

thomas79 said:


> I know I can't force her to love and want me, I want it to come from her.


Coldly tell her you want a divorce. If she doesn't start to jump through hoops to get you back you can be pretty sure she doesn't love you. If she does jump though hoops, don't make it too easy on her so she knows you aren't fooling around and this is her last chance. Being the nice guy in these situations never works, and usually counseling is a waste of time. Most women just are not attracted to needy guys so don't be needy. You need to act like you really couldn't care less, even if you really do care.


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## Limerantic (Jan 16, 2018)

I'd agree with the above. If she really loves you and wants it to work, she should be going out of her way to make things up. In her head she has got off lightly and seems to be taking advantage of your forgiveness.

it's all down to you and how you feel about marriage though. If you feel strongly about the sanctity of marriage then, no, it's not as simple as just walking away. The children also will be affected by this so not an easy decision.

However, if you are more motivated to be the happiest you can (possibly with someone else) then there is no shame in that.

In my opinion (and this is just me), any sort of online affair or ACTUAL reason to mistrust someone would spell the end of my marriage, and I'd expect my DW to think that of me as well. 

Really, it's all down to whether you think the marriage is worth saving and whether you want to try as hard as you can to save it. Her responses to these actions (counselling etc) will probably give you your answers.


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## Rhubarb (Dec 1, 2017)

........ And as for boundaries, she gets no one on one social time with any other guys, either in person or online. I keep this rule for myself anyway and while I always say that others can have different rule, if she's already had an online affair, in my book she loses that right.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

As I mentioned on your thread, transparency.

Which means, at a minimum:

She must give you all passwords to all accounts and devices. You can freely log into all her accounts and devices at any time. You can take her phone out of her hand and read it any time.

She gets no privacy from now until you decide she has proven she can be trusted, which will be years from now, or forever since she has issues.

That’s a start.

As others said, she should be trying hard to demonstrate love, not just occasionally saying something. Words mean absolutely nothing. Consider all words suspect, and probably lies calculated to deceive.

Good luck.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I can't remember the particular book this came from, perhaps "Not Just Friends". Anyhow, the quote is "Walls around the marriage, windows within the marriage". There need to be barriers around the marriage to keep out threats and to keep your weak W from wandering off. And within the marriage there needs to be communication and transparency.

Get her off of social media.
No one-on-one socializing with men.
No one-on-one business meals with men if at all avoidable.
No girls' night out events. Lots of cheating happens at these.
She gets rid of any friends who knew of her cheating.
She stops socializing with toxic friends, such as divorcees who cheated or who are sleeping around.

You get full access to all of her electronics.
You get passwords to all of her accounts everywhere.
She informs you immediately if she is contacted by OM.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

Thor said:


> I can't remember the particular book this came from, perhaps "Not Just Friends". Anyhow, the quote is "Walls around the marriage, windows within the marriage". There need to be barriers around the marriage to keep out threats and to keep your weak W from wandering off. And within the marriage there needs to be communication and transparency.
> 
> Get her off of social media.
> No one-on-one socializing with men.
> ...


THIS THIS THIS!

By chance was she abused as a child?


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## thomas79 (Jan 16, 2018)

Thank you for this.

Yes I believe she was. Little snippets now and again have come to light strengthening my opinion in this but she refuses to talk about it. Hence my want for her to seek help and get some closure.

She was very promiscuous prior to us getting together, lost her virginity at 13 and just kept going. Arguably seeking attention and affirmation on the basis that her childhood was lifeless too. 

Btw I am trying desperately not to defend or justify her behaviour. It's a role I have played for 19 years, one I am working very hard to break away from.

Her view on sex is strange, seeing it simply as an act. I asked her what she thought intimacy meant. I won't quote her words but essentially she thought intimacy was simple intercourse.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

thomas79 said:


> Thank you for this.
> 
> Yes I believe she was. Little snippets now and again have come to light strengthening my opinion in this but she refuses to talk about it. Hence my want for her to seek help and get some closure.
> 
> ...



Child Sex Abuse. Everything you just wrote is classic. Including her refusal to talk about it. You shouldn't press her on the issue of abuse or what happened. It is a minefield for her. Typically the CSA victim believes they are deeply undesirable because of the abuse. This could be due to what the abuser said, or it could be due to trusted adults whom she told and who then said she should be quiet about it. If you try to find out what happened or who the abuser was, or if you try to discuss how the abuse may have affected her, you are poking into her biggest fears. The most you can probably safely do is say therapy seems to help people who've had bad childhoods, and you'll support her in any way she needs. If she doesn't bring things up related to the abuse, you should not bring them up.

You as a Secondary Survivor are in a terrible position. Of course you love her and feel great pain for what she has been through. Yet she is behaving terribly towards you. This is the hell of being a Secondary. I always felt I didn't want to be seen by my W as yet another male who in some way harmed her, so I felt guilty about thinking about divorce. She didn't tell me of the abuse until long into our marriage. Looking back I can see how her behaviors all go back to her CSA. 

You mention rages, which my xw started immediately after the birth of our first child. It makes sense, because now suddenly there was a female child in the house with an adult male. Adult males are a threat in her deep psyche due to the CSA. A boundary you can establish is no raging or yelling. No disrespectful words from her. If needed, you can record her raging and then play it back to her later. She may not realize how bad it is. Discussions about the marriage or other problems should be limited to fairly short time frames, maybe 10 minutes. Try to stay unemotional. If she loses control, leave the room. Don't get into cycles of trying to justify your position.

Fwiw, at one point I was discussing our sex life with my W (we were probably 30 years into the marriage, and about a year after she'd revealed her CSA to me). Her comment was she always thought sex for a man was about "spurting it out". That's it. Just the physiologic process. She didn't feel any emotional bonding component to sex. To her, sex was a tool for a wife to manage her husband. Pair this with a Nice Guy and it is a Perfect Storm. Early sexuality and teen promiscuity seems an odd contradiction for a child who was sexually abused, but the young child learned they had value with sex. Now they can get attention from higher status and older teen boys, which gives the girl social status. The girl may indeed enjoy the sex, too. But upon marriage the unrelated boyfriend now becomes an adult male family member with a position of authority (socially as husband and head of household). He is now in the same category as her abuser, an adult male of some authority or relation. This makes the husband dangerous, at least in her subconscious. Sex may be emotionally difficult for her after marriage.

Oddly, the CSA survivor is at much higher risk of cheating. It's one of the top 3 risk factors, the others being having a history of cheating in prior relationships, and something else (substance abuse?). CSA can cause a complex web of psychological issues. The young child learned about sexuality in a totally dysfunctional way at an early age. They may have no desire for sex within marriage, and even find it emotionally traumatizing, yet they seek out extra-marital sex and they enjoy it.

All that to say you should not expect any significant changes in your W. You can use boundaries to protect your marriage and to reduce her bad behavior towards you. However, she is not going to become a different person because of the boundaries. She will continue to be who she always has been.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

you say it was just online and that you do not think there was any physical transgression....is she will to take a polygraph to prove it...to prove this was an one off, or has there been deceit in the past?


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## thomas79 (Jan 16, 2018)

Thank you Thor. 

This is so amazingly accurate I had goosebumps reading it.

Secondary is hell. Feeling the weight of responsibility blinds all other judgements, even after this betrayal.

I know there is a nice person in there but it's shrouded and locked away.

She was the schoolyard bully too, which often comes out when she rages. And yes she has no idea sometimes after the event of What she says. She lacks empathy completely, making it difficult to explain how you feel. 

The time is near to decide what I am going to do 1) Accept that this is the life, should I stay or 2) get out now, focus on the kids and myself, and find someone more capable and willing to reciprocate.

Thank you again


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Yeah, my xw has zero empathy. Zero. She seems to have sympathy for some things, but no ability at all for empathy.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

thomas79 said:


> The time is near to decide what I am going to do 1) Accept that this is the life, should I stay or 2) get out now, focus on the kids and myself, and find someone more capable and willing to reciprocate.


You didn't say how old your kids are, but I presume early teens approximately.

Mine were middle to late teens as things started coming to a head in the marriage. Actually, I was the one who was pushing for serious work on the marriage, or ending it. It took me a while to get to that point after reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and then some IC and reading a bunch of other books. Anyhow, my w made some efforts but they weren't based in love for me. They were self protective and selfish. It didn't take too long to see they weren't genuine changes, they were just more of the husband management. Public image is very important to her. She needs to project an image of stability, professionalism, happy family, etc. All of those were factors in her willingness to make minor changes related to my discussions with her.

So don't be surprised if you do see some minor changes. I wouldn't say be skeptical, but do guard against getting overly optimistic. You've been barely getting molecules of sustenance from her, so a few crumbs will look good but they are still crumbs.

I chose to stay because the last couple years of high school are pretty tough on kids. While I believe I made the right decision given what was going on with my daughters, I do wish I'd gotten out before that. There's no wonderful age for a kid to be when parents divorce, but I believe younger is always better until they are off to college.

One of my ICs made a point which resonated with me. Everyone has issues. CSA was my xw's issue. As adults we are responsible to address our issues when we become aware of them, and we are obligated to work hard at being the best spouse and parent we can. We remain imperfect, but we have the obligation to make the effort. If someone has an addiction, they are obligated to work on it. There are many resources available. If a person fails to make the effort to seek out those resources, we would not advise someone to stay married to the addict. If a person seeks out resources but makes no effort to overcome their addiction, they are also failing at their obligation. Those people have a character flaw, and they are abusing their spouses and children with their addiction. We would advise the spouse to leave these addicts.

Your W is obligated to address the issues she knows of and which she certainly is aware affect the marriage. She is an adult. If they fail to make a strong effort, we are under no obligation to subject ourselves and our children to their continued abuse of us.

Where this can get into gray zones is if they are making _some_ effort but not really progressing much. That's a tough call especially with kids at home.

I believe the kids are a tie breaker. If you would leave were there no kids, you should leave. If you would stay and try to fix the marriage, then stay. If it is a coin toss which way to go, with kids I would say stay. If your kids are well adjusted now, divorce is not great but it may be ok for them. So many of their friends are divorced that it won't be alien to them. If your W is abusing the kids by yelling at them or otherwise, divorce would mean you can give them a safe home with you. Teens will use their feet to go to the home they want to be at.

If I'd gotten out when I first really seriously started thinking about it, my eldest was in about 9th grade. It would have been better had I done so then rather than wait. When my middle daughter was in 11th grade it was the right decision to stay despite lots of red flags my W was having an affair. 

As to finding someone else, yes you will. However, I think that is a bit of a false choice you are setting up. "My W or some other woman". If your marriage cannot be a happy place for you, then it isn't where you should be. You would be happier leaving the marriage _even if you didn't find a good woman later on_.


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## thomas79 (Jan 16, 2018)

Thanks again Thor,

I totally agree. My eldest is 16 and in what we call college in the UK. She is already incredibly aware of what her mother is like and is essentially suffering as a result. She is in therapy herself now, even though I've tried to be the buffer a lot over the years.

My other 2 are 11 and 5. I fully appreciate the impact this may have on them either way and I do indeed need to be cognisent of that.

This has helped more than you may realise. That thread of hope that someone may change under normal conditions has kept me where I am today, but also been the reason why I hit rock bottom too.

Any other reading suggestions would be welcome. I have read "no more mr nice guy" plus a couple of books ok codependence (which unfortunately I inherited from my mother).


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## smokefire05 (Aug 24, 2017)

Wayward spouses usually stay in the 'cheating-mode' for weeks and months after dday. They are not affectionate, they don't show remorse, they are not transparent ect ect ect. However I have read in many threads about wayward spouses eventually "getting it" and they refocus on the marriage and honestly understand the pain they caused. If you want the marriage to work then hang in there and give her some conditions like start IC and full transparency. Good luck


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

I wonder how she behaved with the online affair dude. 
Did you see any of their communications? 
I wonder if she was she able to give him affection, compassion, communication & show empathy? The things you're not getting?
Just sayin. . .


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## thomas79 (Jan 16, 2018)

Thankfully I didn't see any of the communication. It got sexual within about 2 weeks (I was there when she explained it to the police). I can only imagine, based on the pictures, that it was very explicit.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

You wrote:

"I still don't know whether she genuinely wants a or loves me. She says it but I rarely feel like she means it through her actions.

Intimacy is an issue, as is affection, compassion and communication. Now trust and respect are clearly out of the window too."

I read she does not love you through her actions, your sex life sucks and you can't trust her and have lost respect for her. 

I have 3 questions:

1) What are you getting out of being married to her? 

2) How are boundaries going to fix the above? She has to really love you want to be with you for boundaries to mean anything. 

3) I assume she refuses to acknowledge her mental health issue. Have you considered divorce?


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

Thor said:


> I can't remember the particular book this came from, perhaps "Not Just Friends". Anyhow, the quote is "Walls around the marriage, windows within the marriage". There need to be barriers around the marriage to keep out threats and to keep your weak W from wandering off. And within the marriage there needs to be communication and transparency.
> 
> Get her off of social media.
> No one-on-one socializing with men.
> ...


OMG, you can't be serious  what kind of woman will put up with all this crap? it's extremely insecure. Won't resolve anything. There are no such thing as "toxic" friends or toxic relationship. It used to be an excuse for whinnies, but the newest concept is "your life is what you build, stop blaming childhood trauma, toxic parents, toxic partners etc,)
You should become a person that she does not want to cheat on. If you cannot, then lower your expectation and find a woman who would love and appreciate you the way you are.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

BeautyBeast said:


> OMG, you can't be serious  what kind of woman will put up with all this crap?


Someone who realized she screwed up bad and wanted to stay M'd to her BH, because my W has agreed to and lived with everything on that list for 10+ years now. She has even went permanent NC with her 2 longest (20+ year) gf's that were with her on the girls only vacation ... and FWIW, she didn't seemed to be too concerned about any of it, especially when she was "talking to God" last night. :wink2:


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

BeautyBeast said:


> OMG, you can't be serious  what kind of woman will put up with all this crap? it's extremely insecure. Won't resolve anything. There are no such thing as "toxic" friends or toxic relationship. It used to be an excuse for whinnies, but the newest concept is "your life is what you build, stop blaming childhood trauma, toxic parents, toxic partners etc,)
> You should become a person that she does not want to cheat on. If you cannot, then lower your expectation and find a woman who would love and appreciate you the way you are.


This is the path to her proving, over time, that she is worthy of being trusted. She has utterly destroyed trust with her infidelity. The betrayed needs to see she is no longer engaging in the secretive communications, and that she is no longer associating with people who enabled or even encouraged infidelity. This is also part of her feeling consequences. If there are no consequences to her bad behavior, there is no motivation for her to change.

Another path is for him to just hope she is no longer in contact with her AP, and hoping she doesn't do it again with someone else. Real life tells us this path leads to her having more affairs in the future.

The third path is to just leave her so as not to have to deal with all of this.


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## thomas79 (Jan 16, 2018)

Well, I presented these boundaries to her yesterday:

1) You will delete Instagram. You will remove all ex boyfriends or ex lovers from Facebook also. You will not communicate with any man I don't know on messenger or Snapchat or other medium.
2) I will have free access to your phone and iPad, including access to all email accounts you might have. If I find you are hiding or deleting things then the deal is off.
3) I need total honesty and transparency from you in everything. No lies, however small they might be.
4) You will attend therapy from end of Feb onwards and commit to at least 6 months. 
5) We will both commit time for one another on a regular basis every day, with no phones or ipads.
6) We Will both commit to rejuvenating our sex life and increasing intimacy. This will require talking and exploration together.
7) You will commit to communicating with me, and I to you, as we go through this process.
8) You will not disrespect me or use me as a punch bag if things aren't going well for you. I am here to support you. If I am at fault then it is fair to do so as a discussion.
9) You will commit to a date night once every 4 - 6 weeks or so, where we both make an effort to go somewhere nice (alone). We Will take it in turns, or discuss together, to decide on a venue.
10) Neither one of us will go to sleep angry. Issues will be resolved every evening in order to start the day afresh the next morning.

I purposely integrated some of the homework we were given as part of marriage councilling. That way these boundaries are set and may provide a fighting chance of replenishing parts of our relationship that were dwindling prior to this event.

She has agreed albeit naturally with some disdain. I have a half packed suitcase under our bed and have made it crystal clear that this is the last chance.

I refuse to play this game any more. I refuse to be unhappy or disrespected in any way. I am far better than that. 
I


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## BeautyBeast (Feb 3, 2015)

good intend. let's see the delivery


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