# Compliments



## Faithful Wife

So on another thread, Dvls was telling us his view that men should not compliment women (and Dvls can make this more clear from his own POV if he wants to, as I'm not sure what all he meant).

But for the most part, women love compliments, or that has been my experience.

Women tend to compliment each other a lot, too.

I think a compliment that has a covert contract attached to it is what Dvls is saying is bad, and I'd agree. If you are complimenting someone to try to gain their favor or for any other reason than simply noting something complimentary and saying it, I think women resent it.

Like I have a gf who really wants constant praise and compliments, and she also gives constant praise and compliments...but when you get one from her you know this is just "her thing" and the compliments may or may not be all that real. She really just wants you to shower her with compliments so you aren't sure if she means it when she compliments you.

But most of my female friends really like getting sincere compliments and are able to give sincere ones. 

Your thoughts?


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## jld

I love to give words of affirmation. And I love to receive them. That's my love language. 

I would just accept them as genuine. You can never really know another person's heart, so why not just choose to trust that it is for real?


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## samyeagar

A lot of men would like to give genuine NSA compliments, the thing is, as many women here have expressed, the compliment is either accepted or rejected based on the guys creep factor...if the woman thinks he's attractive, the compliment is taken as intended, if she doesn't think he's attractive, she's creeped out and thinks the worst. So why bother?


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## naiveonedave

I too love to give words of affirmation. But I don't know how many times I have made a random complement that was harshly rebuked or I was blown off by a woman who, i guess, thought it was a pick up line. I learned that lesson by age 20....


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> A lot of men would like to give genuine NSA compliments, the thing is, as many women here have expressed, the compliment is either accepted or rejected based on the guys creep factor...if the woman thinks he's attractive, the compliment is taken as intended, if she doesn't think he's attractive, she's creeped out and thinks the worst. So why bother?


In my experience, no "creep" has EVER given me a sincere compliment.

I know why you would paraphrase it that if a woman thinks a guy is unattractive, this is the only thing that makes him a creep. However, that just isn't true. I'm sorry it seems that way to men, but again, that's not what makes a man a creep. If it was, then any man we aren't attracted to would be a creep and I've never heard any woman say that ever.

A guy who is a creep will stare you down, make a V with his fingers and stick his tongue through it at you (which is just one example of the creepiness), and he may or may not be good looking. Sticking his tongue between his fingers is NOT a compliment. I've had many attractive men act creepy toward me. His attraction level isn't what determines his creep level.

I have always had lots of men give me compliments, and have never considered any of those men a creep....I don't think a real creep would have the nerve to pay a sincere compliment.


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## Faithful Wife

naiveonedave said:


> I too love to give words of affirmation. But I don't know how many times I have made a random complement that was harshly rebuked or I was blown off by a woman who, i guess, thought it was a pick up line. I learned that lesson by age 20....


You know, it is too bad that the things that happen to us when we are very young are logged in our minds forever as "the truth". Because then they can become self-fulfilling.

I would hate it if what I thought about men and women when I was 20 turned out to be true! Thankfully, maturity has shown me more.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> So on another thread, Dvls was telling us his view that men should not compliment women (and Dvls can make this more clear from his own POV if he wants to, as I'm not sure what all he meant).
> 
> But for the most part, women love compliments, or that has been my experience.
> 
> Women tend to compliment each other a lot, too.
> 
> I think a compliment that has a covert contract attached to it is what Dvls is saying is bad, and I'd agree. If you are complimenting someone to try to gain their favor or for any other reason than simply noting something complimentary and saying it, I think women resent it.
> 
> Like I have a gf who really wants constant praise and compliments, and she also gives constant praise and compliments...but when you get one from her you know this is just "her thing" and the compliments may or may not be all that real. She really just wants you to shower her with compliments so you aren't sure if she means it when she compliments you.
> 
> But most of my female friends really like getting sincere compliments and are able to give sincere ones.
> 
> Your thoughts?


This is a tricky subject. I know Dvls was mostly speaking about men complimenting women they'd never met before, which is a very specific situation. The guy can only give certain kinds of compliments, and they often sound insincere whether they are or not. But still...

I need Admiration in my life, but there's nothing worse than feeling as if the compliment is insincere. DH sometimes doesn't put a lot of thought into the compliments he gives me, and it makes me feel like he can't think of anything else nice about me. "I think you're a wonderful woman." ......Okay, why? What makes me wonderful? The general statement is fine as a precursor to a more detailed compliment, but on its own falls short. So, it has to be sincere or it definitely would be better to go without altogether. 

Even when it's sincere, though, sometimes it's not always welcome. There was one guy I knew when I was in the USMC, and he was, unfortunately, an idiot. He was eventually discharged for assaulting a superior, but he thought he was hot stuff. Made it obvious all over my myspace that he was attracted to me, and gave me many different compliments, all of which had to do with my physical looks. While _getting_ the compliment was nice, it wasn't flattering based solely on who gave me the compliment. He was tall, husky, dashing...but irresponsible, immature, and arrogant.

As for whether or not men should compliment women, it really does depend on the situation, imo. The thing I find most...I dunno...resentful, is choosing not to compliment any woman based on the reactions of other women they've complimented before. I get _why_ they choose this, but at the same time, I feel like it's kind of brought on themselves to a degree. I'd rather be complimented by a man, even if his motivate was only sex, than feel like I was being manipulated for sex.


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## Created2Write

samyeagar said:


> A lot of men would like to give genuine NSA compliments, the thing is, as many women here have expressed, the compliment is either accepted or rejected based on the guys creep factor...if the woman thinks he's attractive, the compliment is taken as intended, if she doesn't think he's attractive, she's creeped out and thinks the worst. So why bother?


This assumes that every woman will find every guy a creep 100% of the time. Personally, I'd be more attracted to a guy who actually gave sincere compliments, even after being rejected. It shows confidence, it shows that he knows himself and won't allow the words and actions of other women dictate who he's going to be. That's sexy at it's zenith.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> In my experience, no "creep" has EVER given me a sincere compliment.
> 
> I know why you would paraphrase it that if a woman thinks a guy is unattractive, this is the only thing that makes him a creep. However, that just isn't true. I'm sorry it seems that way to men, but again, that's not what makes a man a creep. If it was, then any man we aren't attracted to would be a creep and I've never heard any woman say that ever.
> 
> A guy who is a creep will stare you down, make a V with his fingers and stick his tongue through it at you (which is just one example of the creepiness), and he may or may not be good looking. Sticking his tongue between his fingers is NOT a compliment. I've had many attractive men act creepy toward me. His attraction level isn't what determines his creep level.
> 
> I have always had lots of men give me compliments, and have never considered any of those men a creep....I don't think a real creep would have the nerve to pay a sincere compliment.


SO true. I've had an incredibly attractive guy tell me, "I want you to have my babies". CREEP. Attitude and behavior is much more likely to label a guy a creep, for me.


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## ReformedHubby

I enjoy complimenting women on their apparel. No one has ever been creeped out by it. If anything they seem to really appreciate that I took notice.

As for my relationships I'll admit that I compliment sparingly. I think compliments are more special, when you really, really mean it. If I gave the same type of compliments to my wife all the time I don't think it would mean as much. I of course say I love you all the time, but constantly complimenting diminishes its value in my opinion.


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## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut

Faithful Wife said:


> In my experience, no "creep" has EVER given me a sincere compliment.
> 
> I know why you would paraphrase it that if a woman thinks a guy is unattractive, this is the only thing that makes him a creep. However, that just isn't true. I'm sorry it seems that way to men, but again, that's not what makes a man a creep. If it was, then any man we aren't attracted to would be a creep and I've never heard any woman say that ever.
> 
> A guy who is a creep will stare you down, make a V with his fingers and stick his tongue through it at you (which is just one example of the creepiness), and he may or may not be good looking. Sticking his tongue between his fingers is NOT a compliment. I've had many attractive men act creepy toward me. His attraction level isn't what determines his creep level.
> 
> I have always had lots of men give me compliments, and have never considered any of those men a creep....I don't think a real creep would have the nerve to pay a sincere compliment.


The V sign, I see what you mean.


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## Faithful Wife

ReformedHubby said:


> I enjoy complimenting women on their apparel. No one has ever been creeped out by it. If anything they seem to really appreciate that I took notice.
> 
> As for my relationships I'll admit that I compliment sparingly. I think compliments are more special, when you really, really mean it. If I gave the same type of compliments to my wife all the time I don't think it would mean as much. I of course say I love you all the time, but constantly complimenting diminishes its value in my opinion.


That's sad that complimenting would diminish the value of the compliments.

I don't feel that way but...I guess it is just a matter of preference.

My H and I compliment each other every day, it just comes out naturally. I don't think a day has ever gone by without some form of "you're so beautiful" coming from each of us to the other, sometimes many times a day.


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## Created2Write

ReformedHubby said:


> I enjoy complimenting women on their apparel. No one has ever been creeped out by it. If anything they seem to really appreciate that I took notice.
> 
> As for my relationships I'll admit that I compliment sparingly. I think compliments are more special, when you really, really mean it. If I gave the same type of compliments to my wife all the time I don't think it would mean as much. I of course say I love you all the time, but constantly complimenting diminishes its value in my opinion.


My love language is affirmation/admiration. I can assure you, it doesn't matter how often my husband compliments me on anything, the value never diminishes. In fact, when the compliments slow down I start to feel like he's losing nice things to say about me.


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## Anon Pink

I used to think all compliments were some covert contract kind of thing, even though I craved positive words from anyone! I just couldn't believe them. But then I got healthy!

Now I love every nice thing ever said to me, even though that tendency to negate a compliment is still there.

I never give and insincere compliment, ever! There is always something complimentary that can be found and spoken about. My besties and I know exactly where we each have our little sore spots and we love each other and build each other up. 

My husband is actually getting pretty good about complimenting me. It's lovely!

I don't think a compliment should ever be held back. Even someone who seems vain still needs to hear nice things.


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## Anon Pink

ReformedHubby said:


> I enjoy complimenting women on their apparel. No one has ever been creeped out by it. If anything they seem to really appreciate that I took notice.
> 
> As for my relationships I'll admit that I compliment sparingly. I think compliments are more special, when you really, really mean it. If I gave the same type of compliments to my wife all the time I don't think it would mean as much. I of course say I love you all the time, but constantly complimenting diminishes its value in my opinion.


Knock it off! My husband used to be the same way! There is no such thing as too much when it comes to word of affirmation.


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## Faithful Wife

My bff grew up with a mother who told her explicitly:

You're not cute.
You're not pretty.
If someone pays you a compliment they are just being nice, so don't let it go to your head.


sigh...that really did a number on her. She honestly believes NO compliment about her, not even ones that are obvious and not about being "cute"...like "good job at work", she still thinks does not reflect her it just reflects a person "trying to be nice". So she believes the motives behind any compliment to anyone that anyone makes are them just "trying to be nice".

So she will accept the compliment by saying "how nice of you!" which is at least sincere on her part...but it also means she rejects what they actually said to her.

I've stopped giving her compliments because I know she just thinks I'm being nice...it is really really sad actually. Especially since (thanks to her mother) she thinks being humble is far more important and "worthy" than being anything else. To them, being humble means to truly believe "I'm nothing, I'm no one, don't pay me any attention and I will just muddle along and do my thing". sigh....


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> So on another thread, Dvls was telling us his view that men should not compliment women.


Wow... if you're going to ask for comment about something I've said, you could at least say it as I have said it.

I did not say never compliment. I said a man should not compliment when he approaches a woman. It is taken suspiciously. A man complimenting a woman's attractiveness when trying to pick her up is most often viewed negatively as only interested in her body. The compliment is not received as genuine, but manipulative.

Compliment wives and girlfriends all you want. They already know he's not just blowing smoke up their @ss to get laid.

The point is that it usually creeps women out when it comes from a man they're not already romantically interested in. Having approached women a hundred different ways, I know for a fact that women usually respond to such compliments with an awkward "thanks" and I almost never got their phone number. On the other hand, a little witty conversation and no compliment almost always got me a phone number. I have a clear sense that an approach that includes a compliment gets a cynical or suspicious attitude in return - as in her thinking, "what are you trying to get?"


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## Faithful Wife

That was why I said you can come and say it the way you wanted to Dvls...because I wasn't 100% sure what you had said.


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## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I did not say never compliment. I said a man should not compliment when he approaches a woman. It is taken suspiciously. A man complimenting a woman's attractiveness when trying to pick her up is most often viewed negatively as only interested in her body. The compliment is not received as genuine, but manipulative.


Ok so don't compliment AS you approach...but then after you've said hello, chatted for a moment, then you think it is ok?


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## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> In my experience, no "creep" has EVER given me a sincere compliment.
> 
> I know why you would paraphrase it that if a woman thinks a guy is unattractive, this is the only thing that makes him a creep. However, that just isn't true. I'm sorry it seems that way to men, but again, that's not what makes a man a creep. If it was, then any man we aren't attracted to would be a creep and I've never heard any woman say that ever.
> 
> A guy who is a creep will stare you down, make a V with his fingers and stick his tongue through it at you (which is just one example of the creepiness), and he may or may not be good looking. Sticking his tongue between his fingers is NOT a compliment. I've had many attractive men act creepy toward me. His attraction level isn't what determines his creep level.
> 
> I have always had lots of men give me compliments, and have never considered any of those men a creep....I don't think a real creep would have the nerve to pay a sincere compliment.


I briefly looked for the thread, but there was one here where there were several women saying just that...if she found him attractive, she accepted the compliment, if she didn't, she found it creepy. I know SA participated in that thread as well.

Of course what you are describing here, tongue between the V is not what most people think of when one says "compliment".

I am fortunate in that I generally don't fall into the creep zone, and can get away with a sincere compliment without being rebuffed at all.

All else being equal, same words, same demeanor, many women would be more accepting of a compliment from a well dressed, well groomed attractive man than they would the balding, beer gut, greasy haired guy.


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## Disenchanted

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Wow... if you're going to ask for comment about something I've said, you could at least say it as I have said it.
> 
> I did not say never compliment. I said a man should not compliment when he approaches a woman.


unless she's unattractive.

Gorgeous HBBs get hit with dumb compliments day in and day out.

BORING.


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## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I briefly looked for the thread, but there was one here where there were several women saying just that...if she found him attractive, she accepted the compliment, if she didn't, she found it creepy. I know SA participated in that thread as well.
> 
> Of course what you are describing here, tongue between the V is not what most people think of when one says "compliment".
> 
> I am fortunate in that I generally don't fall into the creep zone, and can get away with a sincere compliment without being rebuffed at all.
> 
> All else being equal, same words, same demeanor, many women would be more accepting of a compliment from a well dressed, well groomed attractive man than they would the balding, beer gut, greasy haired guy.


In the thread you are talking about, no one said that about a man giving a sincere compliment. They were talking about being checked out and catcalled by random, passing men.

I'm talking about sincere compliments that are given verbally, with eye contact.

There is a difference.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> This assumes that every woman will find every guy a creep 100% of the time. Personally, I'd be more attracted to a guy who actually gave sincere compliments, even after being rejected. It shows confidence, it shows that he knows himself and won't allow the words and actions of other women dictate who he's going to be. That's sexy at it's zenith.


I don't give insincere compliments... ever. From our many conversations, I think you know this. Not complimenting her attractiveness early on is a lesson most guys get after their first few attempts at getting a number - watching women squirm when they say "thanks". A guy needs more rapport before he can say those things and be taken genuine, because almost no matter how well you deliver it, the potential of her viewing it suspiciously is very high.

So if you want to get the date, you don't compliment her attractiveness on the approach. You build rapport, you make her laugh, you show interest in her and seem interesting yourself... but you don't compliment.


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## Faithful Wife

How soon is it ok then, Dvls?


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## committed4ever

I guess I got taken off the market so early at age 18 that I do not deal with compliments from random men very well. In high school compliments were mostly cat calls and walking through the halls was like walking through a construction site. So compliments and being checked out make me very uncomfortable. 

I know DVLS said he wasn't talking about this, but I LOVE getting compliments from my H. It is my close second love language after touch. I would like to get more compliments on how I have put myself together (like, your makeup looks nice, your hair looks nice, that's a great outfit) rather than, compliments on my looks and body (you're so fine, you have the most beautiful butt in the world, etc etc). But he also gives me compliments on what I do which I love, like "you can take all the veggies I don't like and make them taste like a gormet meal. You're amazing!" I love those kind of compliments which he does give a lot.


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## WyshIknew

naiveonedave said:


> I too love to give words of affirmation. But I don't know how many times I have made a random complement that was harshly rebuked or I was blown off by a woman who, i guess, thought it was a pick up line. I learned that lesson by age 20....


I think the benefit of age helps, I sometimes compliment women on something or other and they seem genuinely pleased, but perhaps being older gives you a 'pass' as you are regarded as safe.
I can't recall ever being rebuked, they do seem genuinely pleased that somebody has noticed something they have taken care about.


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## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't give insincere compliments... ever. From our many conversations, I think you know this.


I never said your compliments are insincere, did I? 



> Not complimenting her attractiveness early on is a lesson most guys get after their first few attempts at getting a number - watching women squirm when they say "thanks". A guy needs more rapport before he can say those things and be taken genuine, because almost no matter how well you deliver it, the potential of her viewing it suspiciously is very high.


I've only ever squirmed at getting a compliment when I already knew the guy and didn't like him. I know myself, I know what I am and am not willing to do, and I don't have to punish a guy just because he's complimenting me, even if it's obvious he only wants to get laid. 



> So if you want to get the date, you don't compliment her attractiveness on the approach. You build rapport, you make her laugh, you show interest in her and seem interesting yourself... but you don't compliment.


I just can't understand why total strangers, especially ones that sound snobbish, carry such weight. For me, it wouldn't matter if it was a compliment or a laugh...I'd take it as sincere and be happy I got attention at all. (I must give off a "don't try unless you're willing to marry me" vibe or something.)


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok so don't compliment AS you approach...but then after you've said hello, chatted for a moment, then you think it is ok?


Thank you, but not exactly. Pretty women know how pretty they are and every other nitwit who wants to get into her pants is going to tell her so. I hit on her mind, not her body - make her laugh, tease her, even frustrate her and then soften up; seem crude or c*cky and then any depth will shock her. She'll want to find out more. I wait until I already have a date with her to compliment her, there's less reason for her to believe I'm trying to get something and the compliment is more likely to be taken as genuine. But really, I don't compliment during the pickup phase at all. I wait for when it means more - after establishing a decent connection. Then, compliments are a hit.

In my experience, compliments are received better as early as a first date, as long as its tactful and not over the top or repeated. But even then, I'm not likely to do so unless she's wearing something really snazzy or went big. It says to me she really valued the date if she put this big effort into it, so when this happens, I feel it important to recognize). While I have made first date compliments when they feel natural, I typically save my compliments on her attractiveness for a few dates down the road. My sense is that the women feel safer, more connected and the compliments are received as more sincere - when given delayed like this - and they know I don't just hand out compliments to everyone left and right. Security.


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## Created2Write

For me it really is simple. If a guy is interested in me, he needs to show that interest. He could use compliments, he could try and make me laugh, flirting, all are good to go. As long he was honest, and wasn't giving me insincere compliments, his chances of succeeding would be as high as any other guys, generally speaking. But if I felt at all like I was being manipulated, like he was playing a game with me and using what I see as passive-aggressive pursuit, it would be an immediate and definite no.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I never said your compliments are insincere, did I?


You haven't. I just wanted to clear up any uncertainty. 

Don't want folks thinking I'm an even bigger @sshole than I am... I'm a refined @sshole. haha


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## Faithful Wife

Gotcha.

Yeah that's not been my experience but I believe you when you say it is yours.


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## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Thank you, but not exactly. Pretty women know how pretty they are and every other nitwit who wants to get into her pants is going to tell her so. I hit on her mind, not her body - make her laugh, tease her, even frustrate her and then soften up; seem crude or c*cky and then any depth will shock her. She'll want to find out more. I wait until I already have a date with her to compliment her, there's less reason for her to believe I'm trying to get something and the compliment is more likely to be taken as genuine. But really, I don't compliment during the pickup phase at all. I wait for when it means more - after establishing a decent connection. Then, compliments are a hit.
> 
> In my experience, compliments are received better as early as a first date, as long as its tactful and not over the top or repeated. But even then, I'm not likely to do so unless she's wearing something really snazzy or went big. It says to me she really valued the date if she put this big effort into it, so when this happens, I feel it important to recognize). While I have made first date compliments when they feel natural, I typically save my compliments on her attractiveness for a few dates down the road. My sense is that the women feel safer, more connected and the compliments are received as more sincere - when given delayed like this - and they know I don't just hand out compliments to everyone left and right. Security.


See...all of this sounds like a game to me...like, how aloof can I be and still nail her? Passive-aggressive pursuit wrapped in manipulation with a bow. Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that's exactly what it looks like to me. 

There are aspects of PUA methods I don't have an issue with, but this mindset I find...shady.


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## WyshIknew

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Thank you, but not exactly. Pretty women know how pretty they are and every other nitwit who wants to get into her pants is going to tell her so. I hit on her mind, not her body - make her laugh, tease her, even frustrate her and then soften up; seem crude or c*cky and then any depth will shock her. She'll want to find out more. I wait until I already have a date with her to compliment her, there's less reason for her to believe I'm trying to get something and the compliment is more likely to be taken as genuine. But really, I don't compliment during the pickup phase at all. I wait for when it means more - after establishing a decent connection. Then, compliments are a hit.
> 
> In my experience, compliments are received better as early as a first date, as long as its tactful and not over the top or repeated. But even then, I'm not likely to do so unless she's wearing something really snazzy or went big. It says to me she really valued the date if she put this big effort into it, so when this happens, I feel it important to recognize). While I have made first date compliments when they feel natural, I typically save my compliments on her attractiveness for a few dates down the road. My sense is that the women feel safer, more connected and the compliments are received as more sincere - when given delayed like this - and they know I don't just hand out compliments to everyone left and right. Security.


But I think this is it. It isn't enough to just say "gawsh you're purty." while a bit of drool drips from your lips.

I think the compliment should be spontaneous, genuine and it should actually 'mean' something.


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## Omego

WyshIknew said:


> I can't recall ever being rebuked, they do seem genuinely pleased that somebody has noticed something they have taken care about.


:iagree:

I'm probably thread jacking but I remember the time that an elderly, elegant man in an elevator complimented me on my handbag! Loved it!

And, I've also wondered what would happen if I complimented some random man on his appearance -- not to try to pick him up but just to compliment someone who's made an effort to look really nice....

I've never done it because I wouldn't want to look as though I'm trying to pick someone up! I'd be so embarrassed.

Okay, end thread jack.


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## NobodySpecial

Created2Write said:


> See...all of this sounds like a game to me...like, how aloof can I be and still nail her? Passive-aggressive pursuit wrapped in manipulation with a bow. Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that's exactly what it looks like to me.
> 
> There are aspects of PUA methods I don't have an issue with, but this mindset I find...shady.


It reads like I will be aloof (aka play the game) SO I can nail her.


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## WyshIknew

NobodySpecial said:


> It reads like I will be aloof (aka play the game) SO I can nail her.


I love the way you write your posts NobodySpecial.


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## WyshIknew

You always post such interesting threads Faithful Wife.


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## WyshIknew

I love the insight you bring to threads C2W.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> Yeah that's not been my experience but I believe you when you say it is yours.


I can't speak to women's experience or what you're really thinking when this happens. I only know when I get a number versus when I don't. Retelling this to other guys, I hear back an echo - don't compliment on the approach - unless you just want to be insincerely thanked and send her shields up.

For the most part I'm guessing about the winced "thanks". I'm not a mind reader, but I read faces pretty damn well and these faces usually (not always, but usually) say, "Now I have to be really courteous to this random guy. I feel ambushed." She doesn't want to be rude... she feels trapped... she hasn't made a big judgment of my attractiveness... she's off balance. Ambush by compliment; hence, defensive and suspicious.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> See...all of this sounds like a game to me...like, how aloof can I be and still nail her? Passive-aggressive pursuit wrapped in manipulation with a bow. Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that's exactly what it looks like to me.
> 
> There are aspects of PUA methods I don't have an issue with, but this mindset I find...shady.


It sounds like a game... and that is why they call it game. You're likely resistant to separating method from intent. You associate my description of methodology with ill intent, because I've given a lot of thought and analysis which seems unnatural to you. However, regardless of whether his intentions toward her are honorable or not, this is how he should proceed to maximize his appeal in most instances. Save the compliments for later when they actually mean something.


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## Faithful Wife

But even you saying, that you have to hold yourself back on a first date with compliments...I don't have any memory of any guy ever turning me off with compliments on a first date. If I've accepted a date with a guy, I'm open to him paying me compliments and vice versa.

I've been complimented my whole life...I have rarely felt pressured by it or that I owed anyone anything for it, not even courtesy. I've had plenty of compliments upon approach or on a first date. And it hasn't turned me off. The way you are describing sounds like pretty girls don't want to hear it, or something. I dunno, I just disagree but that's from my end so maybe different.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> It sounds like a game... and that is why they call it game. You're likely resistant to separating method from intent. You associate my description of methodology with ill intent. However, regardless of whether his intentions toward her are honorable or not, this is how he should proceed to maximize his appeal in most instances. Save the compliments for later when they actually mean something.


It wouldn't work with me. It would make me feel like nothing but an object, some temporary prize for following some unspoken rules that don't even apply to me anyway. It would make me feel like the guy looks at me and sees every woman who has ever rejected him, rather than a new and fresh opportunity with a completely different woman.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> But even you saying, that you have to hold yourself on a first date with compliments...I don't have any memory of any guy ever turning me off with compliments on a first date. If I've accepted a date with a guy, I'm open to him paying me compliments and vice versa.
> 
> I've been complimented my whole life...I have rarely felt pressured by it or that I owed anyone anything for it, not even courtesy. I've had plenty of compliments upon approach or on a first date. And it hasn't turned me off. The way you are describing sounds like pretty girls don't want to hear it, or something. I dunno, I just disagree but that's from my end so maybe different.


My experience is different too. Admittedly, I've only had a couple of instances where a stranger has paid me a compliment the moment he saw me, and nearly all of them made me feel extremely flattered. I wasn't put off or insulted at all, nor did I think he was after sex. So, I really can't relate to Dvls experience at all. The women he's tried to pick up sound stuck up.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I had a guy once tell me straight up he "didn't like to give compliments". I thought that was kinda weird. He explained it like it made him feel like he was putting the woman above himself by paying compliments. He also felt she should be self-assured and not need them.

He was weird, though. Not saying he was typical.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Anon Pink said:


> Knock it off! My husband used to be the same way! There is no such thing as too much when it comes to word of affirmation.


Ok, I'm fairly open minded to change. I'll make more of an effort to be more complimentary and see what happens.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Created2Write said:


> My experience is different too. Admittedly, I've only had a couple of instances where a stranger has paid me a compliment the moment he saw me, and nearly all of them made me feel extremely flattered. I wasn't put off or insulted at all, nor did I think he was after sex. So, I really can't relate to Dvls experience at all. The women he's tried to pick up sound stuck up.


I guess again, we might be having a wording difference...a sincere compliment, to me, is one you would tell someone whether or not you wanted in their pants or wanted their phone number.


----------



## Giro flee

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I can't speak to women's experience or what you're really thinking when this happens. I only know when I get a number versus when I don't. Retelling this to other guys, I hear back an echo - don't compliment on the approach - unless you just want to be insincerely thanked and send her shields up.
> 
> For the most part I'm guessing about the winced "thanks". I'm not a mind reader, but I read faces pretty damn well and these faces usually (not always, but usually) say, "Now I have to be really courteous to this random guy. I feel ambushed." She doesn't want to be rude... she feels trapped... she hasn't made a big judgment of my attractiveness... she's off balance. Ambush by compliment; hence, defensive and suspicious.


 This is my experience, men who come up out of the blue and compliment my physical appearance get my guard up. I guess I almost always have my guard up anyway, you never know who is a serial murderer. I'm never rude, like some men have experienced, but I don't like compliments from men I don't know.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I guess it would depend on the compliment. I've never had anything weird or odd in the form of a sincere compliment from a stranger. I have had plenty of "nice hair/boots/jeans" or whatever from both men and women.

If it was a really just an attempt at "hey baby wanna F" then I don't consider that a sincere compliment.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I guess again, we might be having a wording difference...a sincere compliment, to me, is one you would tell someone whether or not you wanted in their pants or wanted their phone number.


I think we may have some sort of disconnect here, or just that there are so many types of compliments in so many different situations and contexts, and even what constitutes a compliment.

Myself, in the context of a relationship, I become pretty unfiltered with the compliment, and not just physical complimeents, but smarts, cooking, you name it, I don't hold back.

Now for the extreme absurd example...fat 50 year old greasy poorly dressed guy tells a 25 year old woman in her group of friends that her shirt really brings out her eyes will probably get a very different reaction than if the guy was a fit, well groomed 30 year old guy who says the exact same thing...perhaps this says more about the maturity and ability of the woman to accept a compliment than anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lookinforhelpandhope

To me, if a guy wants to pay a woman a compliment then it should be gracefully accepted.

Even if it's just a simple 'thank you'.

I thinink it's lovely when a man has the confidence to give a compliment. Nothing wrong with it, IMO.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Currently, I drive a car that gets a lot of compliments. Mostly from young guys, they literally have their tongues wagging/hanging out when I drive by, and that's when they can't even see the driver! Then a lot of times I'll park and the dude still can't really even see me at all he's still just gagging at my car.

When I'm driving along and have a passenger, they will inevitably say "wow you sure get checked out a lot". And I'm like "it's not me, it's the car". I can tell when it is me, and it only is about 1/3 of the time compared to when it is my car. I have had dudes cross a street coming at me and I'm like "oh no, what is this about?" preparing for a creep attack (because dudes don't normally cross a street looking like they want to talk to you) and when they get there they are like "DAY-UMMM your car is HOTTT!"

Those are definitely sincere compliments.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I think we may have some sort of disconnect here, or just that there are so many types of compliments in so many different situations and contexts, and even what constitutes a compliment.
> 
> Myself, in the context of a relationship, I become pretty unfiltered with the compliment, and not just physical complimeents, but smarts, cooking, you name it, I don't hold back.
> 
> Now for the extreme absurd example...fat 50 year old greasy poorly dressed guy tells a 25 year old woman in her group of friends that her shirt really brings out her eyes will probably get a very different reaction than if the guy was a fit, well groomed 30 year old guy who says the exact same thing...perhaps this says more about the maturity and ability of the woman to accept a compliment than anything else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I still say it would have to do with his sincerity. Did he want to tell her that simply because....why? It makes him feel better? Or because he actually wanted to get closer up to look down her shirt?

A guy being 50 and fat and greasy doesn't make him a creep, but I know many of you guys feel that way.

Most women I know don't need to know how to accept a sincere compliment, it comes naturally. What also comes naturally is our ability to snif out a creep.


----------



## Created2Write

samyeagar said:


> I think we may have some sort of disconnect here, or just that there are so many types of compliments in so many different situations and contexts, and even what constitutes a compliment.
> 
> Myself, in the context of a relationship, I become pretty unfiltered with the compliment, and not just physical complimeents, but smarts, cooking, you name it, I don't hold back.
> 
> Now for the extreme absurd example...fat 50 year old greasy poorly dressed guy tells a 2t year old woman in her group of friends that her shirt really brings out her eyes will probably get a very different reaction than if the guy was a fit, well groomed 30 year old guy who says the exact same thing...perhaps this says more about the maturity and ability of the woman to accept a compliment than anything else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True story: I was at a family reunion and a neighbor stopped by during it. He was in his fifties at least and overweight, and told me I had beautiful eyes. As awkward as that was, since I didn't know him at all, I still accepted the compliment as sincere because I had no reason to believe that it wasn't. Was I physically attracted to him, like I would have been to a younger guy? Definitely not. But nothing that fifty year old could have done would have changed that. Did I think it was creepy or gross? No. He was being nice.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Currently, I drive a car that gets a lot of compliments. Mostly from young guys, they literally have their tongues wagging/hanging out when I drive by, and that's when they can't even see the driver! Then a lot of times I'll park and the dude still can't really even see me at all he's still just gagging at my car.
> 
> When I'm driving along and have a passenger, they will inevitably say "wow you sure get checked out a lot". And I'm like "it's not me, it's the car". I can tell when it is me, and it only is about 1/3 of the time compared to when it is my car. I have had dudes cross a street coming at me and I'm like "oh no, what is this about?" preparing for a creep attack (because dudes don't normally cross a street looking like they want to talk to you) and when they get there they are like "DAY-UMMM your car is HOTTT!"
> 
> Those are definitely sincere compliments.


lol. Okay, funny story kind of off topic. I was walking through the parking lot with DH and saw a beautiful Mazda RX8...one of my favorite cars. It was black, with dark red rims and wonderful interior. Just...yeah, a hot car. No one was inside, and we were walking by it to get to our car and I said outloud, "Suuuch a hot car!" and blew it a kiss. I heard a laugh behind me and turned and this guy was like, "I see you making out with my car." 

I died.  It was hilarious. DH nearly fell over. 

Okay, end derail.


----------



## WyshIknew

samyeagar said:


> I think we may have some sort of disconnect here, or just that there are so many types of compliments in so many different situations and contexts, and even what constitutes a compliment.
> 
> Myself, in the context of a relationship, I become pretty unfiltered with the compliment, and not just physical complimeents, but smarts, cooking, you name it, I don't hold back.
> 
> Now for the extreme absurd example...fat 50 year old greasy poorly dressed guy tells a 25 year old woman in her group of friends that her shirt really brings out her eyes will probably get a very different reaction than if the guy was a fit, well groomed 30 year old guy who says the exact same thing...perhaps this says more about the maturity and ability of the woman to accept a compliment than anything else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think it is the 50 thing that is the problem it is the greasy, poorly dressed aspect as far as I'm concerned.

I'm 50+ and I've never had the feeling that I gross somebody out.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Well, it is also a problem when there is an ulterior motive. Why would the greasy 50 y/o HONESTLY want to give the compliment? If he really is just a nice person and thought the girl had pretty eyes, most likely his sincerity will shine through. But if he just wanted to use the compliment as an excuse to get closer to her for some other reason, she will sense that there's a covert reason in there.


----------



## samyeagar

WyshIknew said:


> I don't think it is the 50 thing that is the problem it is the greasy, poorly dressed aspect as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I'm 50+ and I've never had the feeling that I gross somebody out.


It wasn't the 50 part in particular  Just illustrating a large age difference to increase a common creep factor 

I do think that a lot of this depends on the maturity of the woman based on her own life experiences, as well as her own self image. C2W has really shown her maturity across her whole time here, and while she is relatively young, she is also pretty comfortable with herself and her sexuality, so it doesn't surprise me the situation she described above.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Created2Write

samyeagar said:


> It wasn't the 50 part in particular  Just illustrating a large age difference to increase a common creep factor
> 
> I do think that a lot of this depends on the maturity of the woman based on her own life experiences, as well as her own self image. C2W has really shown her maturity across her whole time her, and while she is relatively young, she is also pretty comfortable with herself and her sexuality, so it doesn't surprise me the situation she described above.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks sam.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> It wasn't the 50 part in particular  Just illustrating a large age difference to increase a common creep factor
> 
> I do think that a lot of this depends on the maturity of the woman based on her own life experiences, as well as her own self image. C2W has really shown her maturity across her whole time her, and while she is relatively young, she is also pretty comfortable with herself and her sexuality, so it doesn't surprise me the situation she described above.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sam...I hate to point out the obvious, but *you guys really have no idea what it is like to be a woman* and to be butthurt about us calling some of them creeps also shows lack of maturity in your POV, IMO.

Some men really ARE CREEPS.

I'm sorry that makes some guys insecure, but it is still true. We are sorry that us thinking some guys are creeps and others aren't doesn't seem fair to some of you guys...but saying this is showing a lack of maturity, to me, makes no sense. You are implying that men really are not creeps, it is just that women are immature.

Until you've walked in the shoes of a real woman's life for a few years and seen exactly what REAL CREEPS do and say to her, you really don't know.


----------



## samyeagar

Created2Write said:


> Thanks sam.


Holy sh1t...did I just give a compliment? The funny thing is, when I wrote that, it wasn't even intended as such, just me being honest and calling it as I swa it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Also just to be clear, a young woman being GAWKED AT by an old man in a gym is NOT a sincere compliment.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam...I hate to point out the obvious, but *you guys really have no idea what it is like to be a woman* and to be butthurt about us calling some of them creeps also shows lack of maturity in your POV, IMO.
> 
> Some men really ARE CREEPS.
> 
> I'm sorry that makes some guys insecure, but it is still true. We are sorry that us thinking some guys are creeps and others aren't doesn't seem fair to some of you guys...but saying this is showing a lack of maturity, to me, makes no sense. You are implying that men really are not creeps, it is just that women are immature.
> 
> Until you've walked in the shoes of a real woman's life for a few years and seen exactly what REAL CREEPS do and say to her, you really don't know.


Interesting, is there something you could point at that makes someone a creep?
Is there a set of creep traits?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam...I hate to point out the obvious, but *you guys really have no idea what it is like to be a woman* and to be butthurt about us calling some of them creeps also shows lack of maturity in your POV, IMO.
> 
> Some men really ARE CREEPS.
> 
> I'm sorry that makes some guys insecure, but it is still true. We are sorry that us thinking some guys are creeps and others aren't doesn't seem fair to some of you guys...but saying this is showing a lack of maturity, to me, makes no sense. You are implying that men really are not creeps, it is just that women are immature.
> 
> Until you've walked in the shoes of a real woman's life for a few years and seen exactly what REAL CREEPS do and say to her, you really don't know.


Of course I don't know what it's like to be a woman, but I DO know what it is like to be lumped into a generality, and just as women don't like getting lumped into generalizations, men don't either, and there are just as many that men get lumped into that are just as unfair, but the old addage that real men should just suck it up is alive and well out in the real world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Of course I don't know what it's like to be a woman, but I DO know what it is like to be lumped into a generality, and just as women don't like getting lumped into generalizations, men don't either, and there are just as many that men get lumped into that are just as unfair, but the old addage that real men should just suck it up is alive and well out in the real world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You have a daughter. Would you tell her to ignore her instincts when she senses a guy is a creep and just "be polite" because he probably is really just a nice person and has no ulterior motive? Or would you tell her to go ahead and use her instinct on this?

And if she isn't supposed to use her instincts, what do you propose she DOES use to evaluate which guys are creeps and which are not?


----------



## Faithful Wife

WyshIknew said:


> Interesting, is there something you could point at that makes someone a creep?
> Is there a set of creep traits?


Nope. You just know it when you feel it.

But as a general rule, creeps don't make sincere compliments. They make excuses to get near you and talk to you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Of course I don't know what it's like to be a woman, but I DO know what it is like to be lumped into a generality, and just as women don't like getting lumped into generalizations, men don't either, and there are just as many that men get lumped into that are just as unfair, but the old addage that real men should just suck it up is alive and well out in the real world.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sam, if no one is lumping YOU into that generality, why are you so upset by it? I honestly don't see a lumping generality, myself, but I'm not doubting that you do. Even still, it doesn't seem to apply to you so....why do you defend men who women think are creeps just based on your assumption that they are misunderstood only? How many do you think really are creeps versus just misunderstood?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> You have a daughter. Would you tell her to ignore her instincts when she senses a guy is a creep and just "be polite" because he probably is really just a nice person and has no ulterior motive? Or would you tell her to go ahead and use her instinct on this?
> 
> And if she isn't supposed to use her instincts, what do you propose she DOES use to evaluate which guys are creeps and which are not?


Where have I ever even suggested that a woman, or anyone should ignore their instincts? I am just left with the impression that you are advocating a default position of creep until he shows differently, that his motives are suspect by default.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> Where have I ever even suggested that a woman, or anyone should ignore their instincts? I am just left with the impression that you are advocating a default position of creep until he shows differently, that his motives are suspect by default.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What? I'm the one talking about sincere compliments. You are the one who brought up that if the guy isn't attractive he is auto-assumed to be a creep. I said no, that isn't the case for me.

Where am I advocating a default position of creep, sam?

You are suggesting that most women just need to be mature and accept a compliment, that's how you are suggesting that she should ignore her instincts. If he really IS A CREEP, how would she know other than by instincts? But again, you are saying she is just immature to not accept the compliment.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Nope. You just know it when you feel it.
> 
> But as a general rule, creeps don't make sincere compliments. They make excuses to get near you and talk to you.


But not all people who want to get near you and talk to you are necessarily creeps.

Is it perhaps the intent?


----------



## Faithful Wife

WyshIknew said:


> But not all people who want to get near you and talk to you are necessarily creeps.
> 
> Is it perhaps the intent?


Again, all I can say is that you know one when you see it and feel it, yes you feel their intent. AND they will rarely give a sincere compliment, there is always a covert thing going on.

So I never said that all people who want to get near you and talk to you are creeps....what I said was that CREEPS use a fake compliment as an excuse to get near you and talk to you.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam, if no one is lumping YOU into that generality, why are you so upset by it? I honestly don't see a lumping generality, myself, but I'm not doubting that you do. Even still, it doesn't seem to apply to you so....why do you defend men who women think are creeps just based on your assumption that they are misunderstood only? How many do you think really are creeps versus just misunderstood?


While I know the generalities don't apply to me, and you personally aren't doing it, that doesn't mean it's not something I experience on a regular basis, just as you get lumped in unfairly sometimes...it's about awareness
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## WyshIknew

I paid Mrs Wysh a compliment this morning.

I said that she looked nice, she asked what clothes she was wearing that looked nice and I said "red knickers and white bra."

"What about my clothes"

"I dunno, I lost interest when you covered them up."

" oh great" she said "if I went missing and the police asked what I was wearing you would say red knickers and white bra."

Luckily she found it funny!


----------



## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut

WyshIknew said:


> Interesting, is there something you could point at that makes someone a creep?
> Is there a set of creep traits?


The Creep (feat. Nicki Minaj & John Waters) - YouTube

"1950's word used by women to decribe an undesirable man."


----------



## Created2Write

For me, "creep" is a very specific identification. I can be turned off by a guy and not find him a creep. I can be annoyed as hell at a guy and not find him a creep. I could even have an initial reaction of, "Oh no...he's coming this way" and not find him a creep. To me a creep is something set apart from all of that, and he(or she) can be any age, any attractiveness level. 

Example: I was at a Swing Dance ballroom. It was an "Open Swing" night, where you paid $5 and had like, four hours of swing dancing you could enjoy. I dance with nearly every guy who asked because I love it. It was my first time there, and a taller older man asked me to dance. The first half of the dance went well. He was a good leader, and I was enjoying myself. About halfway through the dance he did a body roll, which rolled his chest, his oversized belly, and his pelvis over the entire front of me. *CREEEP*. And the look on his face told me that he'd done it without regard for how I'd feel. 

I turned around and left the dance floor in the middle of the dance because it was utterly gross, I felt icky, mildly violated, and shocked. He did the same thing to a few other girls that night, and I think he was complained about because he didn't come back after that. That to me is creepy behavior.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> While I know the generalities don't apply to me, and you personally aren't doing it, that doesn't mean it's not something I experience on a regular basis, just as you get lumped in unfairly sometimes...it's about awareness
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, so this is about your feelings, I get that.

But please don't turn it around on me. I never said the default position is to assume someone is a creep. Never said anything close and I don't feel that way. So ... leave me out of it?


----------



## Created2Write

It's not a lack of desirability that makes someone a creep.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Sam...I hate to point out the obvious, but *you guys really have no idea what it is like to be a woman* and to be butthurt about us calling some of them creeps also shows lack of maturity in your POV, IMO.
> 
> Some men really ARE CREEPS.


Him: Got any black in you?
Me: Huh?
Him: Want some?

Guy asks me to dance. I don't know him. He takes his hands, grabs my ass and tries to grind me into him.

The WORST was the 50 year old guy who DESPERATELY wanted to go out with the 20 year old me. He would not stop asking him why I would not go out with him. Constantly invited me to sleep over. He sent his friends to ask why I would not go out with him. He simply could not understand that I needed a reason TO go out with someone not a reason NOT to. 

Just a couple of examples that come to the top of my head.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Created2Write said:


> It's not a lack of desirability that makes someone a creep.


But conversely, being a creep definitely makes someone unattractive.


----------



## NobodySpecial

WyshIknew said:


> Interesting, is there something you could point at that makes someone a creep?
> Is there a set of creep traits?


Not traits. Behaviors.


----------



## WyshIknew

Created2Write said:


> For me, "creep" is a very specific identification. I can be turned off by a guy and not find him a creep. I can be annoyed as hell at a guy and not find him a creep. I could even have an initial reaction of, "Oh no...he's coming this way" and not find him a creep. To me a creep is something set apart from all of that, and he(or she) can be any age, any attractiveness level.
> 
> Example: I was at a Swing Dance ballroom. It was an "Open Swing" night, where you paid $5 and had like, four hours of swing dancing you could enjoy. I dance with nearly every guy who asked because I love it. It was my first time there, and a taller older man asked me to dance. The first half of the dance went well. He was a good leader, and I was enjoying myself. About halfway through the dance he did a body roll, which rolled his chest, his oversized belly, and his pelvis over the entire front of me. *CREEEP*. And the look on his face told me that he'd done it without regard for how I'd feel.
> 
> I turned around and left the dance floor in the middle of the dance because it was utterly gross, I felt icky, mildly violated, and shocked. He did the same thing to a few other girls that night, and I think he was complained about because he didn't come back after that. That to me is creepy behavior.


Eeeew. I think that goes beyond creepy and borders on physically abusive.


----------



## Created2Write

NobodySpecial said:


> But conversely, being a creep definitely makes someone unattractive.


Yes. Absolutely.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> You have a daughter. Would you tell her to ignore her instincts when she senses a guy is a creep and just "be polite" because he probably is really just a nice person and has no ulterior motive? Or would you tell her to go ahead and use her instinct on this?
> 
> And if she isn't supposed to use her instincts, what do you propose she DOES use to evaluate which guys are creeps and which are not?


Objective assessment of his behavior.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Created2Write said:


> For me, "creep" is a very specific identification. I can be turned off by a guy and not find him a creep. I can be annoyed as hell at a guy and not find him a creep. I could even have an initial reaction of, "Oh no...he's coming this way" and not find him a creep. To me a creep is something set apart from all of that, and he(or she) can be any age, any attractiveness level.
> 
> Example: I was at a Swing Dance ballroom. It was an "Open Swing" night, where you paid $5 and had like, four hours of swing dancing you could enjoy. I dance with nearly every guy who asked because I love it. It was my first time there, and a taller older man asked me to dance. The first half of the dance went well. He was a good leader, and I was enjoying myself. About halfway through the dance he did a body roll, which rolled his chest, his oversized belly, and his pelvis over the entire front of me. *CREEEP*. And the look on his face told me that he'd done it without regard for how I'd feel.
> 
> I turned around and left the dance floor in the middle of the dance because it was utterly gross, I felt icky, mildly violated, and shocked. He did the same thing to a few other girls that night, and I think he was complained about because he didn't come back after that. That to me is creepy behavior.


I had a guy smash his groin against me while swing dancing once...EWWW!!! CREEP!!!

When I left the floor I was mad at myself for not calling him out right then and there...but I was so shocked I just didn't know what to do.

The next time I saw him out dancing he asked me to dance and I said "uh NO". He left but came back later and asked me why. And I told him "because the last time I danced with you, you mashed your groin on me and it was totally gross". His face went white and he just whispered "I'm sorry" and left. Creep.


----------



## Lyris

A creep is a man who has the potential to be dangerous, in my opinion. Who doesn't respect boundaries. Who tries to get women at a disadvantage by intimidating them into agreeing to things they wouldn't usually agree to.

Creeps try to use women's socialised politeness and unwillingness to upset men to their advantage.


----------



## Created2Write

WyshIknew said:


> Eeeew. I think that goes beyond creepy and borders on physically abusive.


I felt violated, that's for sure. It's why I went against proper dance etiquette and left the dance floor. Course, his actions went way against proper dance etiquette, so I guess he left me no choice, really.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> I had a guy smash his groin against me while swing dancing once...EWWW!!! CREEP!!!
> 
> When I left the floor I was mad at myself for not calling him out right then and there...but I was so shocked I just didn't know what to do.
> 
> The next time I saw him out dancing he asked me to dance and I said "uh NO". He left but came back later and asked me why. And I told him "because the last time I danced with you, you mashed your groin on me and it was totally gross". His face went white and he just whispered "I'm sorry" and left. Creep.


Ick. Yeah. Swing is kind of a 50/50 chance what kind of dancer you'll get. I've had guys who expected _me_ to do body rolls and twerking and grinding in swing before. One guy even stopped once to give me a moment to show off, but I'm more of the...ballet/ballroom type, so I just did a plie. lol. Most of them take it in stride and don't take it too far, but that one guy...sheesh. I'm just glad we weren't doing Salsa. West Coast Swing leaves a good amount of room between the dancers. 

Although, just to show that young guys can be creeps too, I was in my Swing class and one of the guys my age was a great leader. He was a very talented dancer, and he often danced with me because I learn fast and was lightyears ahead of the other dancers in my class. We were dancing Nightclub and he said, "A lot of guys use this dance as an excuse for their hands to...wander...you know, while guiding the woman and all." And he said it in a way that I knew he was testing me. Usually I laugh and pass those things off, but the guy had been pushing my boundaries already and I told him, "Well, I guess I'll know soon enough if I have to set my husband on you." He laughed, but totally backed off. 

Perhaps he was just flirting, but it felt creepy to me.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Created2Write said:


> I felt violated, that's for sure. It's why I went against proper dance etiquette and left the dance floor. Course, his actions went way against proper dance etiquette, so I guess he left me no choice, really.


I was getting pawed at and grossed at since I was so young, I was so over it by grown up hood. The dude who ground on me, I was like, oh geez. Go F yourself.


----------



## Created2Write

I was sheltered as a teen, so it was new to me to have someone behave so thoughtlessly. And in public, too. And in a ballroom, not a dance club. I was just so shocked. If he'd tried to dance with me a second time, I'd have told him to F himself.


----------



## Faithful Wife

The guy who creeped on me was young, too.


----------



## WyshIknew

Sam, in your experience have you ever met a female creep?

Trying to think of an instance of a female creep but can't think of any.

Met a few who were almost reverse creeps and thought extremely highly of themselves and would look down their noses at some guys.


----------



## Faithful Wife

My son has had some female creeps coming on to him.

As well as some old men creeps when he was a minor.


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## SimplyAmorous

samyeagar said:


> *I briefly looked for the thread, but there was one here where there were several women saying just that...if she found him attractive, she accepted the compliment, if she didn't, she found it creepy. I know SA participated in that thread as well*.


 This is the thread...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/107194-ladies-do-you-like-getting-male-attention-9.html

The last 3 pages I gave lots of my thoughts on this...the creep zone... this was my 1st response...



> Dad&Hubby said:
> 
> 
> 
> The ones she's flattered by are the ones she thinks are attractive, the ones she's disgusted by she doesn't.
> 
> Pretty simple.
> 
> 
> 
> I have always found this attitude from women (after the fact cutting down certain men)...rather offensive & horribly shallow...and no, I have never acted like this...
> 
> For one thing, if I was a homely man, I wouldn't give these type of women a word of praise - given the attitudes of some...it's too humiliating.
> 
> Granted, consciously I know I would not see some of the men who flattered as "a potential"
> (we all know what turns us *on* by a moments glance)... yet still...*the INTENT* of the compliment to me, whether by a good looking man or one that is NOT, or Grandpa over there...... should be on the same playing field...*at least when we're married*...
> 
> Even if I did get *a little more of a rise* out of the Hotter guys words (sure it can happen!)... I would quickly remind myself >> "so what!".... it ends [email protected]#
> 
> The hot Guy, the homely guy, the dirty old man, even the young inexperienced Boy with the crush....they all NOTICE & are visually tuned to Beautiful women....so for every comment one makes, another slew is out there thinking a similar thing... just wasn't as vocal about it...
> 
> To me...a Compliment is a compliment...It is flattering... so long as it as in good taste, irregardless of who it was from....even women! and I would graciously accept them all... and not look down on those who have had a harder time pulling the women in.
> 
> In fact if I was going to *"weigh" *compliments given (in any area - not just looks)..... I would give the most weight to the shyer guy who rarely puts himself out there...over the Looker who makes a past time of picking up Chicks.....or someone like Simon Cowell who rarely has something nice to say, but tends to sarcastically criticize....when someone like that uplifts you...it's time for a double take. ...did I just hear that right [email protected]#$
Click to expand...


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## Giro flee

I hate to say it but I do lump all men into the creep category until proven otherwise. I've had too many uncomfortable encounters to trust without proof. Offensive comments, touching, grabbing, you can never be too careful. They almost all started out with compliments and then got more aggressive.


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## Faithful Wife

Giro, that hasn't been my experience but if it had, I'm sure I'd feel just like you do and wouldn't trust anyone I didn't know who was giving a compliment.

I honestly have had very few times in my life that involved actual creeps. Compared to the many very nice and sincere compliments I've received, I can barely remember them.

The dance guy is the most recent example and that was several years ago.

(added...this doesn't mean I haven't had LOTS of dealings with creeps, they just aren't in the form of sincere compliments...)

(also added...I have been a creep, too, and I know the difference for myself...like if I'm in a position to be able to look down a woman's shirt, and I really shouldn't do it but I do anyway, that's me being a creep...when a woman catches me doing this, she will look at me like I'm a creep, too, because in that moment, I was...)


----------



## WyshIknew

Oh crap, I've been a creep too.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Well, when boobs are on display and I've looked, I've never gotten that "you creep!" look. But when I was being sneaky like standing in line to pay your bill and there's a woman sitting next to me and I can see down her shirt yet she NEVER intended for anyone to be able to see and I cop a peek? That's when I get the "you creep!" look. And I deserved it.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Well, when boobs are on display and I've looked, I've never gotten that "you creep!" look. But when I was being sneaky like standing in line to pay your bill and there's a woman sitting next to me and I can see down her shirt yet she NEVER intended for anyone to be able to see and I cop a peek? That's when I get the "you creep!" look. And I deserved it.


Ah perhaps not a creep then.

Of many instances, braless girl in loose t shirt on archaeological dig. Lots of bending and looking.

Women sitting with legs open so you can see their laundry.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I just try to be honest and sincere with my "visual compliments" as well as verbal ones. If I'm sneaking a peek, it is not sincere or honest by the fact of sneaking alone (I really try not to, even if I would never get caught). If I'm eye-raping someone, they might think I'm creepy (which is their right to do so) but at least I wasn't hiding anything, I was making it obvious.


----------



## Giro flee

Every now and again it's nice to be able to just bend over and pick up the pen I dropped without worrying about what I'm wearing and who's watching..... I never really thought about women trying to look down my shirt. I guess they aren't as threatening to me.


----------



## always_alone

Sincere compliments are lovely. Even from random strangers.

Compliments designed to get a phone number or extract some other form of "return", not so much.


----------



## FrenchFry

Female creep: Always Sunny, the McPoyle Sister. I think her name is Margaret...when I get home I'll GIF her :>
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FrenchFry

Also from Always Sunny--Dennis is a creep who is cute. 

As far as compliments--I love them from women and I soak them up. My lady-heavy family compliments each other constantly and I grew up giving and recieving them. So much so that my guard is completely down for women who are interested in me and I get blindsided.

Men--My guard is up not for the creeps but for being hit on. What is really nice about being married is that with my huge ass ring, the intention of the man who is throwing out a compliment becomes much clearer much quicker. So much so that I am starting to feel a little more comfortable actually accepting them and walking away where in the past it was a little sketchy to do so as I had been followed/harassed/verbally assaulted/physically assaulted for not accepting the compliment "properly." 

There is a distinctly different feeling from getting a compliment from a guy who is pursuing just YOU, a guy who is "on the prowl,
and a guy who is not interested in you and just likes an aspect of you. I don't like on the prowl compliments, I'm no longer interested in pursuit compliments and I always accept fashion compliments--I spend a lot of time on this crap.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I love compliments from DH and sincere compliments from people I know.Compliments from strangers IRL make me feel awkward.

I was at the grocery store with my little boy on Friday.We were getting some ice cream and I was in black yoga pants and a grey tank top.No makeup.Hair in a ponytail.NOT looking for attention.
These two men,obviously feeling good after work and it was apparently payday bc they were cashing their checks at customer service,started making rude perverted gestures about my breasts. LOUDLY. The one guy was acting like he was jiggling his face between them. 

It was awful bc people were looking at them then turning to look at me.It was so obvious they were referring to me with their nasty gestures and loud comments.

I wanted to cry.It was in front of my son and he knew exactly what was going on too.I was so stunned that I couldn't even put up my usual b*tchface attitude to say something about it.

Those kinds of things are NOT compliments.Men suck when they do those things to a woman.I wish someone would take men like that and humiliate them.Make them stand outside with their pants around their ankles so we can all laugh at them.


----------



## Jellybeans

I love getting compliments.


----------



## samyeagar

A lot of what has been described here goes way beyond a compliment. Rude gestures, vulgar comments, invasion or personal space..those things clearly are NOT compliments, as a compliment is intended to make the receiver comfortable, happy, feel good. I would not expect anyone to accept that attention in a positive way.

What I am talking about, as in the example I gave earlier, a strictly verbal compliment with no rude gestures, or obvious creepy things attached to it. It just seems that often there is an immediate search for the ulterior motive, and if one is not found then the compliment may be accepted rather than the other way around, that the compliment is accepted until an ulterior motive is shown.

I understand and do not doubt the MANY incidents shared here with men being creeps, and know that is only the tip of the iceberg. I see it myself, and it disgusts me. This has led many women to take the default position of the guy having an ulterior motive unless he proves otherwise, to for that generalization about men.

Men know that if they go up to a woman to compliment her, his motives WILL be questioned, and he will likely have to put in the effort to disarm her before the compliment is accepted as genuine. We do pick up on that initial discomfort in women, even if she is gracious in accepting, so if she's going to be uncomfortable to begin with, and my motives are going to be questioned, why should I bother with someone who is a complete stranger that I am likely never going to think about, let alone see again?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ScarletBegonias said:


> I love compliments from DH and sincere compliments from people I know.Compliments from strangers IRL make me feel awkward.
> 
> I was at the grocery store with my little boy on Friday.We were getting some ice cream and I was in black yoga pants and a grey tank top.No makeup.Hair in a ponytail.NOT looking for attention.
> These two men,obviously feeling good after work and it was apparently payday bc they were cashing their checks at customer service,started making rude perverted gestures about my breasts. LOUDLY. The one guy was acting like he was jiggling his face between them.
> 
> *It was awful bc people were looking at them then turning to look at me.It was so obvious they were referring to me with their nasty gestures and loud comments.*
> 
> I wanted to cry.It was in front of my son and he knew exactly what was going on too.I was so stunned that I couldn't even put up my usual b*tchface attitude to say something about it.
> 
> Those kinds of things are NOT compliments.Men suck when they do those things to a woman.I wish someone would take men like that and humiliate them.Make them stand outside with their pants around their ankles so we can all laugh at them.


If I was in a safe place and this happened, I would be VERY TEMPTED to walk up to them and say ...."Seriously Do you fvcking mind???" I probably wouldn't .. but if I got







enough, they were close enough, I could see me BURNING to say something...maybe add ..."if you all get off on oogling, try not to make it so D**k obvious & learn some class"...(and yeah, I'd say that in front of my kids too, not like they haven't heard me swear before)... always a lesson with A-holes around to teach your sons... that would be one of those moments. 

I can't think of a time where I ever felt that sort of "meat" addressed by stranger men..

I DO like compliments...my husband does too...We like friendly people...I most especially enjoy when we go out as a family...very often some older couple will walk up to us & tell us what a well behaved bunch of kids we have... just makes you feel good.. sometimes husband will get "Are they all yours?"...next question...."to the same woman?"..... and many Football team/ baseball team comments.. We enjoy it.. makes you 

Our teens have friends stay over our house, on a # of occasions...a couple of them & myself...we get into these deep discussions.....if I am hanging around...one is THE BRAIN in the class...a pianist, very talented -this one is going places, I tell him when he is a CEO -he needs to hire our sons for his company....introverted Nerds really... but such DEEP thinkers.. and I love it.. they enjoy debating me.... so what if they are just 17... they are SMART... we delve into Religion...purpose... women...anything really..and they compliment me - telling me I am fun to talk to...

But yeah.. I especially enjoy sincere compliments....if you had some sort of exchange & some laughter ...you pretty much can feel they are sincere... not just pandering for brownie points or to make themselves look good... ya know.... I especially enjoy communication, why forums greatly appeal to me.. so when someone has enjoyed talking to me, a little bantering... if I have helped them see a new insight, or challenged their mind... this makes me beam... and I enjoy encouraging where it is due..some just need a listening ear.


----------



## always_alone

FrenchFry said:


> There is a distinctly different feeling from getting a compliment from a guy who is pursuing just YOU, a guy who is "on the prowl,
> and a guy who is not interested in you and just likes an aspect of you. I don't like on the prowl compliments, I'm no longer interested in pursuit compliments and I always accept fashion compliments--I spend a lot of time on this crap.


Agreed. Guys on the prowl are skeevy and best avoided. 

I'm also not very inclined to trust pursuit compliments either, because IME, there are too many conditions attached. Perhaps this is because I never attract people who are interested in me, just those looking for a quick bang?

I like compliments from people who are just being sincere and don't want anything from it! 

That's how I like to give them too.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> But even you saying, that you have to hold yourself back on a first date with compliments...I don't have any memory of any guy ever turning me off with compliments on a first date. If I've accepted a date with a guy, I'm open to him paying me compliments and vice versa.
> 
> I've been complimented my whole life...I have rarely felt pressured by it or that I owed anyone anything for it, not even courtesy. I've had plenty of compliments upon approach or on a first date. And it hasn't turned me off. The way you are describing sounds like pretty girls don't want to hear it, or something. I dunno, I just disagree but that's from my end so maybe different.


Any explanation I give is just my attempt to explain something that doesn't make sense to me so take it with however much salt you will, but I do know that when a compliment was included in my approach a girl was far less likely to give me her number than when I didn't compliment.

Like I said, compliments on the date are ok - I don't have any clear-cut indicator as to whether its a positive or negative. I still hold back on them because doing so seems to hold my edge better. She continues the "sell" longer because I haven't really "bought". So its just based on a "feel" more than positive or negative result. When I hold back, she seems more interested or pursues more. I suspect this is similar to the well known advice to not over-share or over-text. Sounds inane, but things seem to go best when she's offering about 2/3 of the conversation. I've even put it to the test in text specifically - outnumber her texts; be the first to text more often than not; or always respond immediately after she texts and women generally become less engaged: slower to respond, fewer responses, short responses and ignored texts start to occur. Its crazy reliable. I have a lot of different thoughts about why holding back seems to play a role, but its very noticeable. The more interest I show, the less interest is returned.

Also expressed in the common advice: stop trying so hard.

Seems counter-intuitive. You'd think women would become more interested in a man they're attracted to who puts a lot of effort in, but the opposite is usually the case. Its as if the easier prize is cheaper... and from here I get a lot of ideas I've expressed as "holding your value" - appear more discerning, less eager and delay the buy-in, if you will.

This was one of my problems getting / keeping a girlfriend in high school. I was happy and excited when someone I liked returned interest, so I engaged at will. I can only guess this scared them off because I later learned that holding back, having a little aloof or nonchalant reserve gets much better results. Perhaps its a confidence signal. To use a saying from football, its "act like you've been there". One aspect of a guy who naturally draws women is that he's used to it - he has no reason to be excited and over-engage. I suspect women sniff out this over-sharing quality and it betrays a guy who's confidence isn't in line with his apparent physical attractiveness, and confidence is king.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> a sincere compliment, to me, is one you would tell someone whether or not you wanted in their pants or wanted their phone number.


Yes, but if you do say the compliment, you're effectively crossing her off your list. Wanting her doesn't make the compliment disingenuous or necessarily manipulative - but that's how they're usually taken. They send all the defenses up.

I compliment women regularly... just not the ones I'm trying to get a date with.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

ScarletBegonias said:


> I love compliments from DH and sincere compliments from people I know.Compliments from strangers IRL make me feel awkward.
> 
> I was at the grocery store with my little boy on Friday.We were getting some ice cream and I was in black yoga pants and a grey tank top.No makeup.Hair in a ponytail.NOT looking for attention.
> These two men,obviously feeling good after work and it was apparently payday bc they were cashing their checks at customer service,started making rude perverted gestures about my breasts. LOUDLY. The one guy was acting like he was jiggling his face between them.
> 
> It was awful bc people were looking at them then turning to look at me.It was so obvious they were referring to me with their nasty gestures and loud comments.
> 
> I wanted to cry.It was in front of my son and he knew exactly what was going on too.I was so stunned that I couldn't even put up my usual b*tchface attitude to say something about it.
> 
> Those kinds of things are NOT compliments.Men suck when they do those things to a woman.I wish someone would take men like that and humiliate them.Make them stand outside with their pants around their ankles so we can all laugh at them.


I'm so sorry, SB.  They should be ashamed - and with your son right there - how would they like someone to gesture about their mothers like that?

You have a hot body and weren't flaunting it and that type of reaction is very objectifying and non-complimentary because of the sexual objectification. 

You showed your son the classy thing to do was ignore them. It would have been VERY nice had a man stopped them. They obviously have no respect for women.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm so sorry, SB.  They should be ashamed - and with your son right there - how would they like someone to gesture about their mothers like that?
> 
> You have a hot body and weren't flaunting it and that type of reaction is very objectifying and non-complimentary because of the sexual objectification.
> 
> You showed your son the classy thing to do was ignore them. It would have been VERY nice had a man stopped them. They obviously have no respect for women.


Thanks Enjoli It was funny on the way out my son was like "mom those guys were being ass holes.you're really pretty but they don't need to act like that." LOL I was so proud of him that I completely ignored his profanity.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> It wouldn't work with me. It would make me feel like nothing but an object, some temporary prize for following some unspoken rules that don't even apply to me anyway. It would make me feel like the guy looks at me and sees every woman who has ever rejected him, rather than a new and fresh opportunity with a completely different woman.


"It" wouldn't work on you? lol 

You're immune to friendly guys? You require compliments from a guy trying to get your number? You know that I express these things because I have proved them to be reliable right?

What wouldn't work with you is handing you my analysis prior to hitting on you - so of course you can easily say "it wouldn't work on me" here. But in reality you perceive nothing other than a witty guy with a good sense of humor striking up conversation. The rules aren't presented to you during the approach, but they still apply.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

As to the topic, I enjoy a compliment. Most aren't creepy. The ones that are pick up lines are obvious and pathetic. I have to say my ex was pretty good about telling me I looked nice before heading to work, and complimenting my cooking after dinner.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its crazy reliable. I have a lot of different thoughts about why holding back seems to play a role, but its very noticeable. The more interest I show, the less interest is returned.


They are just playing the same game you are. No surprise that you would attract/be attracted to people who are into the same sorts of games.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> I guess it would depend on the compliment. I've never had anything weird or odd in the form of a sincere compliment from a stranger. I have had plenty of "nice hair/boots/jeans" or whatever from both men and women.
> 
> If it was a really just an attempt at "hey baby wanna F" then I don't consider that a sincere compliment.


Example of the sort of compliment I've given on an approach:

Woman at gas station wearing a really nice dress. I'm at the pump next to her. Noticing her, I immediately say "You look amazing... special occasion?" (a pretty innocuous compliment imo) She thanks me (in an almost obligatory way that barely acknowledges me), says not really, just going out with some friends, and we chit chat while the gas is pumping but she never truly engages. Short responses. Asks nothing about me, just responds to my conversational steering. Even though I already know this is over, I say something like "I know what it is, you're tying to impress your date. Its gonna work." Obligatory laugh. Says she has no date, so I say something like "Well if you give me your number I'll be your date. I'm helpful like that." Another obligatory laugh, and thanks, but I don't give out my number to people I don't know. "Ah, I gotcha... hope you have a great night." "Thanks! You too!" The end.

Exact same scenario minus the "you look amazing" and I know from experience the conversation goes better. Its very hard to have a good conversation when the other person refuses to engage. When not set up by a compliment that is most often received as an attempt to manipulate her, she doesn't spend the whole time in defensive mode waiting for me to ask for her number.

Compliments are the thing I most strongly associate with receiving various excuses as to why she can't give you her number. Take away the compliments and numbers seem to flow pretty freely.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> They are just playing the same game you are. No surprise that you would attract/be attracted to people who are into the same sorts of games.


They are? Chase the less interested guy and ditch the more interested guy?

This is appealing to men?


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> What I am talking about, as in the example I gave earlier, a strictly verbal compliment with no rude gestures, or obvious creepy things attached to it. It just seems that often there is an immediate search for the ulterior motive, and if one is not found then the compliment may be accepted rather than the other way around, that the compliment is accepted until an ulterior motive is shown.
> 
> I understand and do not doubt the MANY incidents shared here with men being creeps, and know that is only the tip of the iceberg. I see it myself, and it disgusts me. This has led many women to take the default position of the guy having an ulterior motive unless he proves otherwise, to for that generalization about men.
> 
> *Men know that if they go up to a woman to compliment her, his motives WILL be questioned, and he will likely have to put in the effort to disarm her before the compliment is accepted as genuine.* We do pick up on that initial discomfort in women, even if she is gracious in accepting, so if she's going to be uncomfortable to begin with, and my motives are going to be questioned, why should I bother with someone who is a complete stranger that I am likely never going to think about, let alone see again?


I guess if I were a man and that was my experience over and over, I wouldn't bother giving compliments either. It would get tiring to be regarded as suspicious again and again!

I can say that many men don't have this experience, though...or at least, I've dated and been friends with lots of complimentary men (who give compliments regularly and without holding back). 

And like Giro Flee said, she has had experiences that showed her that men giving compliments are typically dangerous (or potentially dangerous) so she is suspicious of them. I would be too if that were my experience.

All I'm saying really is that we apparently have all had a different experience with this stuff and modify our behaviors accordingly.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

WyshIknew said:


> Interesting, is there something you could point at that makes someone a creep?
> Is there a set of creep traits?


Thou shalt not have rules. Thou shalt randomly pick thy creeps through thy divine power. 

TBH, beyond oft-cited obvious obnoxiousness, whether a regular guy is a creep or not depends on her state of mind and whether she's at all attracted to him imo.

He's a creep if she says he's a creep. Doesn't really matter though.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> They make excuses to get near you and talk to you.


Is wanting to talk to you really so bad?


----------



## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> They are? Chase the less interested guy and ditch the more interested guy?
> 
> This is appealing to men?


I've mentioned before that there are many such books for women, Dvls.


----------



## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Is wanting to talk to you really so bad?


Only if you're a creep...and sorry, that is not determined by attraction. There are attractive creeps and we still do not want them making excuses to get near us and talk to us.


----------



## FrenchFry

Last time I got a compliment at a gas station, dude followed me in, tried to pay for my gas, got pissed off and called me a ***** when I said "no, thank you" and then proceeded to follow me in his car. I really try not to engage with people at the gas station for that and about three other really jarring experiences.


I actually think it's a little less about being apprehensive about giving out a number than it is about people being creepy ****s that think that thinking throwing out a compliment= automatic access. Like your example, a woman doesn't know if you are going to be the guy who follows her into a gas station and gets mad and aggressive if you turn her down. I can see why removing the compliment works in that case, actually.

Places like gas stations where we aren't looking for interaction is where the guards are up the highest. It sucks that we have to act like that but chances are that the woman at the gas station has had similar gross experiences.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Lyris said:


> Creeps try to use women's socialised politeness and unwillingness to upset men to their advantage.


I like your definition. The latter mirrors my opinion on compliments during the approach. The compliment is somewhat of an entrapment. Its not an even conversation anymore, he complimented her, and now she's expected to be polite and appreciative. Take away the compliment and the conversation is comfortably neutral and she can make judgments without the obligation of the social norm.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Here's a woman's experience of street harassment...it is really sad and sickening, and not for the usual reasons one might think. THIS IS NOT sincere compliments AT ALL...but it is just another illustration of why a woman might be suspicious of anyone trying to talk to her in public:

"Ugly c*nt!" - My experience of street harassment


To me, any guy who would yell stuff at a "fat chick" out a car window is a CREEP. Period.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> Places like gas stations where we aren't looking for interaction is where the guards are up the highest. It sucks that we have to act like that but chances are that the woman at the gas station has had similar gross experiences.


That's fine, I get the shields I really do. I'm just saying a compliment does reliably send the shields up. its not even just as places like a gas station. Its everywhere. 

As for your examples of guys with weird aggression issues (lack of class), nobody listening to me would think I'm aggressive... a little c*cky maaaybe... carefree certainly, but no way aggressive. I don't even look scary... I'm a skinny 5'10" and I wear bright colors. lol

I don't get pissy when I'm turned down or even when I'm ignored. I'm about as easy going as they come. If she shuts me down she shuts me down. It doesn't mean anything. Hell, half the time I've gotten rejections I think it was just a knee-jerk reaction to surprise or not being ready. Women are strange.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Only if you're a creep...and sorry, that is not determined by attraction. There are attractive creeps and we still do not want them making excuses to get near us and talk to us.


Well, I don't consider myself to be a creep and I'll find a good excuse to get near her and talk to her. The one thing I know is that if I don't act, I'll never know her.


----------



## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Well, I don't consider myself to be a creep and I'll find a good excuse to get near her and talk to her. The one thing I know is that if I don't act, I'll never know her.


Since you are not a creep, you definitely should always try...there's no reason not to, like you said. 

I think with the compliments though...you actually are trying to manipulate them. Even if just the tiniest bit. I'm just saying this based on your descriptions of events. So for that reason, even a hint of manipulation and a woman runs scared...you are right not to compliment.


----------



## TiggyBlue

FrenchFry said:


> Places like gas stations where we aren't looking for interaction is where the guards are up the highest. It sucks that we have to act like that but chances are that the woman at the gas station has had similar gross experiences.


:iagree:
Plus you don't know if someone is going through a hard time in their life/have problems with anxiety ect, their response may not have anything to do with someone's approach.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Giro flee said:


> Every now and again it's nice to be able to just bend over and pick up the pen I dropped without worrying about what I'm wearing and who's watching.....


I don't really get this. If its a guy intentionally trying to position himself where he can get a view... ok. But a guy who got a peek when you bent over?? Do you really expect us to look away? Its incidental and meaningless imo. The guy is generally not purposely violating you, he was just looking the right way at the right time, so why feel hostile to the guy? Why worry about it so much?


----------



## Giro flee

I never trust a man who approaches me when I'm alone in public, it scares the crap out of me. I had a guy stop his van in the middle of the road while I was walking the dogs, nobody was around and he tried to compliment my dogs. Seriously, why would a man think that's a good time to talk to a woman? I almost had a heart attack. 

If I'm at a bar with friends and people around then I expect that men will come around. I guess I find compliments in this setting lazy, insincere, or just somebody looking for an easy hookup. He wouldn't have come over if he wasn't attracted so what else does he have to offer?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> :iagree:
> Plus you don't know if someone is going through a hard time in their life/have problems with anxiety ect, their response may not have anything to do with someone's approach.


On an individual basis I would agree... but lumped together with a ton of such experiences, individual explanations like that lose their sway.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Giro flee said:


> I never trust a man who approaches me when I'm alone in public, it scares the crap out of me. I had a guy stop his van in the middle of the road while I was walking the dogs, nobody was around and he tried to compliment my dogs. Seriously, why would a man think that's a good time to talk to a woman? I almost had a heart attack.


:rofl: @ "I almost had a heart attack" 

The dog thing is one I never have to worry about.A lone female walking two big dogs has a way of making people cross over to the other side of the street to avoid contact


----------



## SimplyAmorous

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Seems counter-intuitive. You'd think women would become more interested in a man they're attracted to who puts a lot of effort in,* but the opposite is usually the case*. Its as if the easier prize is cheaper... and from here I get a lot of ideas I've expressed as "holding your value" - appear more discerning, less eager and delay the buy-in, if you will.


 I give you points for saying "USUALLY"... not meaning all...:smthumbup:....it doesn't have to play this script..

I generally get riled up when I see posts speaking on the nice Boys...a little eager showing how much they CARE outright with the generalization they are of Lessor value...an unworthy catch.... I can't help but take this as a Hit on a good man like mine... 

I saw this so differently... he was quiet , because he DIDN'T put himself out there hardly at all, I felt even more valued, more precious..Like "WOW" -he came out of his shell for ME...it was like I revived him ..I shook him up.. I liked that @#$ It made me feel wholly special...set apart...

We were very open to show our selves emotionally.. this just flowed ...he had no game, I had no game... damn...I'd never change that, it's what I loved...hear me.. LOVED about him....we anticipated each other...there was receptive interest in getting to know each other...why hold back... playing some cat & mouse games...









Everything you THINK is so vehemently opposed to how I feel....and what I look for in a man...







....it doesn't devalue anyone's worth...



> This was one of my problems getting / keeping a girlfriend in high school. I was happy and excited when someone I liked returned interest, *so I engaged at will. I can only guess this scared them off because I later learned that holding back, having a little aloof or nonchalant reserve gets much better results*.


 This could play out another way too... if the guy held on to his aloof demeanor a little too long....trying to secure her feelings..

This sort of treatment , I could see more as souring my spirits towards a guy I was interested in....also knowing he had lots of other women.....that would only leave me questioning if his heart was elsewhere waffling / conflicted, that he's not all that into me...like I was wasting my time grasping for something that wasn't there...

Makes me think of this song.. I would have left a guy like that..

When I Was Your Man 

I never wanted the aloof mysterious type that keeps you hanging ..I thrive on the transparent, the emotional depth that is shared more so.... am I THAT rare among women? 

I surely understand the man should play off of our "interest" cues though..of course...this is pure WISDOM... how much enthusiasm we show to his giving parts of himself...do we light up when he is around, not making excuses to avoid him... we need to be careful to not misread..or jump in too quickly when the interest is way off...but slowly build upon the interaction / the chemistry that flows ..it's just something you RUN with ...when it's there I guess..


----------



## Giro flee

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't really get this. If its a guy intentionally trying to position himself where he can get a view... ok. But a guy who got a peek when you bent over?? Do you really expect us to look away? Its incidental and meaningless imo. The guy is generally not purposely violating you, he was just looking the right way at the right time, so why feel hostile to the guy? Why worry about it so much?


It's the vulgar comment that comes out of their mouth, or the creepy wink he gives you when you stand back up. If they had looked and kept their thoughts to themselves I would have never known. You never know which reaction you are going to get.


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## FrenchFry

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> As for your examples of guys with weird aggression issues (lack of class), nobody listening to me would think I'm aggressive... a little c*cky maaaybe... carefree certainly, but no way aggressive. I don't even look scary... I'm a skinny 5'10" and I wear bright colors. lol


The thing is the dudes who do this kind of stuff--look and act like you. They look normal and even the compliment is easy-going and non-threatening. There is literally not a way to tell without further interaction if the guy approaching is hitting on you and will take it respectfully if you turn him down and the dude who will take it wrong and get aggro.

Which is why I don't base creepiness on looks at all. It's absolutely the taking advantage of social mores.

It's not that women are strange. It's that we live a totally different life than you and we adjust our reactions accordingly. If every say, 10th time you were hit on and you turned it down, the woman became increasingly pushy/hostile/uncomfortable to the point you felt physically scared, I'm sure you would stop acting so friendly, you'd eye strange women warily and even those with good intentions you'd keep a guard up. If every 5th time you got a compliment, it was followed by pursuit even though you are giving off no signals of wanting pursuit, you'd view compliments as a negotiation.

But at the same time, you'd appreciate compliments that were thrown out of niceness with no expectation of any sort of reciprocation. Those are the compliments I live for.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

SimplyAmorous said:


> I saw this so differently... he was quiet , because he DIDN'T put himself out there hardly at all, I felt even more valued, more precious..Like "WOW" -he came out of his shell for ME...it was like I revived him ..I shook him up.. I liked that @#$ It made me feel wholly special...set apart...


That's exactly how I felt/feel about DH.



SimplyAmorous said:


> We were very open to show our selves emotionally.. this just flowed ...he had no game, I had no game... damn...I'd never change that, it's what I loved...hear me.. LOVED about him....we anticipated each other...there was receptive interest in getting to know each other...why hold back... playing some cat & mouse games...


That was us as well.Neither person had game of any sort. Every thing was put on the table and pleasantly received with no fear.




SimplyAmorous said:


> I never wanted the aloof mysterious type that keeps you hanging ..I thrive on the transparent, the emotional depth that is shared more so.... am I THAT rare among women?


That's one thing I love about DH actually.Anytime I want to know all I do is ask and the answer is given to me openly.He definitely has layers to discover but he isn't intentionally mysterious or aloof.


----------



## samyeagar

So with everything that has been said over the past few pages, how is it unreasonable for me to think that the default position is one of suspicion? That the initial reaction is one of the guy is insincere until he manages to prove otherwise.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> So with everything that has been said over the past few pages, how is it unreasonable for me to think that the default position is one of suspicion? That the initial reaction is one of the guy is insincere until he manages to prove otherwise.


It isn't unreasonable, I just objected to you saying that *I* have a default position of suspicion, because I personally do not.

I also responded and said that if I were you (or a man with similar experience) I could see why you'd feel that way.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

samyeagar said:


> So with everything that has been said over the past few pages, how is it unreasonable for me to think that the default position is one of suspicion? That the initial reaction is one of the guy is insincere until he manages to prove otherwise.


I don't feel that's unreasonable. I don't think it's necessarily a default for everyone though even if it seems that way. When it comes to compliments,common sense is a must.Men have to try to see themselves and their compliment how the woman might see it.


----------



## Cosmos

I think everyone likes sincere compliments, and I'm no exception. However, I tend to have a 6th sense for seeing when this is done with ulterior motives, and I find it insulting.

One thing I avoid and dislike more than fake compliments and flattery, are compliment wh0res or people who are _continually _looking for validation. I have a friend who will regularly pull herself apart in order for me to validate her appearance and youthfulness, and I find it _very _tedious. Side stepping her 'prompts' rarely works, because she will return to the subject again and again, coming at it from a different angle, in order to get her fix. These days I tend to avoid her...


----------



## Faithful Wife

I'm sure guys get tired of gals like that too, cosmos.

There are some guys who also do that but not really fish for compliments, rather fish for admiration or acknowledgement of some deed they accomplished.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> They are?


Yes. It's the same damn playbook, just with genders reversed:

-Don't text him more than he texts you
-Play it cool, don't show you're too interested (or he'll rabbit)
-Make it look like you have lots of option
-don't always be available; don't answer the phone too quick

Yada, Yada, Yada, blah, blah, blah.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I think men and women who are dating and trying to use the game approach should read the books intended for the other gender...just to see that it does go both ways.


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## Cosmos

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm sure guys get tired of gals like that too, cosmos.
> 
> There are some guys who also do that but not really fish for compliments, rather fish for admiration or acknowledgement of some deed they accomplished.


:iagree: FW, but IME guys don't (usually) tend to do it in such a needy and _over-powering_ way.


----------



## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> So with everything that has been said over the past few pages, how is it unreasonable for me to think that the default position is one of suspicion? That the initial reaction is one of the guy is insincere until he manages to prove otherwise.


Only if you focus on the random stranger situation, and only if the compliments are clearly about looks or other superficialities.

But why do we keep having to get stuck there, like it's the only possible time a man might compliment a woman, or the only possible subject they can relate on? 

If someone tells me I've done amazing work, made them think, inspired them, or otherwise done something useful or exciting, I'm going to take it well, pretty much every time. Even from a random stranger. But if some guy tells me I "look amazing" while I'm minding my own business pumping gas, I'm pretty sure that he's (a) lying and (b) after something.

Why else would he bother?


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## always_alone

Cosmos said:


> :iagree: FW, but IME guys don't (usually) tend to do it in such a needy and _over-powering_ way.


I dunno. I find it pretty needy and overpowering when they start name dropping, or flashing cash, or bragging about how tapped in they are to some money or status network.

Get me outta there!


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## Faithful Wife

That's true in general, Cosmos...but I do work with a guy who is a little screwy in the head, and he will come talk to people at their desk and tell them these long drawn out stories that always illustrate either his brilliance or his efforts or the fact that he saw or did something bigger and better than anyone else ever on the planet...and no matter how polite or rude people are in trying to get him to understand they don't really care and aren't listening, he will just go on and on and finish his story.

I've heard everything from ghost stories, to conspiracy theories, to his own war stories (of murder, etc), to these amazing adventures he has been on, to his personal theories, to his political views, to the story of meeting his wife and their history, etc. It is obvious as he's telling these stories that he thinks HIS story is far more fascinating than anyone else's...as shown by the fact that he knows literally nothing about me yet I know his life story. 

He definitely tries to overpower the listener...not sure what he gets out of it?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> we live a totally different life than you and we adjust our reactions accordingly.
> 
> But at the same time, you'd appreciate compliments that were thrown out of niceness with no expectation of any sort of reciprocation. Those are the compliments I live for.


Yeah, it is really different. I mean, I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've received a compliment from a woman I didn't know. What's up with that? I'm a pretty good looking guy if you ask me.  

I guess I just wouldn't care if she got pissy if I turned her down... I mean, I already turned her down. Is that really compliment dependent though? Someone may get pissy about being turned down regardless of how they approached right?

But yeah, I see how experience informs your response and that's why I posted in the first thread that I suspect its a security thing in many ways. My experience on the other side also informs my approach. My adjustment is to not compliment. Its unlikely to be received as genuine and is only going to do the opposite of what I want, which is to get her to feel comfortable enough to at least give her number to me. This is why I don't like it characterized as manipulative or as C2W expressed, passive-aggressive. To my thinking, there's nothing truly ill about it, its just awareness.

The only way to reasonably ensure that a compliment is received as genuine, is to hold off on giving them. There's kind of a synergy to it too... it shows you don't just dole out compliments left and right, giving the compliments you do give more weight. It has a greater positive effect... later.

Balancing this "hold back" with being forward and assertive is a dance... and you can see just on this simple issue of compliments how nuanced it can be. On one hand I like the game of it because I think I get the rules, but on the other hand its bothersome. Rightly, a compliment is the easiest way for a guy to announce his interest in you. Take the compliment, take a wild chance on a date because I'm cute enough and I don't have to play the game. You can always dump me after the first date.


----------



## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Balancing this "hold back" with being forward and assertive is a dance... and you can see just on this simple issue of compliments how nuanced it can be. On one hand I like the game of it because I think I get the rules, but on the other hand its bothersome. Rightly, a compliment is the easiest way for a guy to announce his interest in you. Take the compliment, take a wild chance on a date because I'm cute enough and I don't have to play the game. You can always dump me after the first date.


You don't have to play the game, or the girl doesn't have to play the game? Confusing, because you seem to think it is all game, all the time. That's why IMO you are likely coming across as manipulative...there is manipulation in what you are writing about, even if just slight manipulation, it is still there, and that's what game is about.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its unlikely to be received as genuine and is only going to do the opposite of what I want, which is to get her to feel comfortable enough to at least give her number to me. This is why I don't like it characterized as manipulative or as C2W expressed, passive-aggressive.


If you can't see this as manipulative, you mustn't even know what the word means.

You are the case-in-point of the random stranger who wants to extract a return from his compliment. And because you can't, you choose not to compliment, and find another means to extract that return.

It's exactly to avoid this sort of exchange that my shields are in place, and my stock response is now a raised eyebrow and an "are you kidding me" expression (if I'm feeling particularly cheerful), or a sarcastic comment.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> That's true in general, Cosmos...but I do work with a guy who is a little screwy in the head, and he will come talk to people at their desk and tell them these long drawn out stories that always illustrate either his brilliance or his efforts or the fact that he saw or did something bigger and better than anyone else ever on the planet...and no matter how polite or rude people are in trying to get him to understand they don't really care and aren't listening, he will just go on and on and finish his story.
> 
> I've heard everything from ghost stories, to conspiracy theories, to his own war stories (of murder, etc), to these amazing adventures he has been on, to his personal theories, to his political views, to the story of meeting his wife and their history, etc. It is obvious as he's telling these stories that he thinks HIS story is far more fascinating than anyone else's...as shown by the fact that he knows literally nothing about me yet I know his life story.
> 
> He definitely tries to overpower the listener...not sure what he gets out of it?


I have a guy like that at work, he is a total pillock. After his first few sentences I switch off and I eventually realise that I've not heard a thing he has said.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

See, if someone said I looked "amazing" that's sort of over the top unless I'm in red carpet attire. I'd much rather hear "you look dressed up for a fun night - big plans?" or "pretty dress!"

The problem with the gas station is I don't have enough time to determine if you are worth giving my number to so there's no sense in engaging. I'm not going to hang out by the pumps talking for 20 minutes getting to know you a little bit before I decide to give my number. I can do that at the grocery store standing by our cars, I can do that in a bar, restaurant, amusement park, dog park... a gas station feels way too much like "abduction potential" LOL Remember, Ted Bundy was attractive and charming. 

Women have to be more careful of ulterior motives. We are generally the weaker sex and have been taught from little girls to be on the defensive around most men. They "only want one thing", etc. and even if our own mothers weren't like that, odds are you had several good friends who were raised that way so we've heard it our whole lives. 

We know that you can't determine our inner beauty in one glance so we don't feel truly appreciated by a random comment nearly as much by someone we don't know vs. someone we do.

I'd much rather have a man approach me with a commonality like "I heard those get good gas mileage" or "are those healthy choice meals any good" (LOL - NO) or at the dog park "They say owners start to look like their dogs. It's not working!" Or a funny guy looking at a Star magazine in the checkout line saying "NO WAY! Elvis is ALIVE???" as an opener vs. a compliment. 

After a few minutes he can say something about my appearance but it can't be sexual. Eyes, smile, the color I'm wearing is flattering, shoes (can't become creepy foot-fetish compliment) or a comment on my career/intellect - "wow, I bet it was hard learning to ______" or you 're a good dancer or have good taste in beer. 

Tons of ways to compliment and approach but it has to feel safe, it has to be where we can evaluate for a bit before we give up a phone number (we've had a stalker before and don't need another TYVM) or get into your vehicle or walk somewhere quiet with you.


----------



## WyshIknew

Perhaps this is why I have never sensed a creeper vibe regarding me?

My compliments are genuine, not a pick up line (heck some of the women are less than half my age so I'm hardly a 'threat') and I hope I don't look like a perv.

I do sometimes get a puzzled look as though they are not used to some old guy talking to them but we usually part smiling.


----------



## Faithful Wife

It is because you honestly have no ulterior motive, Wysh.

We really can tell when someone does...we're used to it.

That's why there is no way to describe a creep. It could be anyone.

Women learn this very young.

As young as 10 years old, I have had grown men make total creep statements to me...you "know" what these men have in mind even before you know what sex is.

But to SAM...I still don't assume some random man giving me a compliment is a creep. I KNOW if he's a creep or not, I don't assume it just because of a compliment.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Your mentioning knowing if a guy is a creep - took my daughter camping around that age, just the two of us. We were riding our bikes on a gravel road when we came up on two men riding horses. My daughter was ahead of me so stopped uncertainly to look back at me. One guy, in the worst southern country drawl said "wanna pet my horse little girrrrrl?" and it was so freaking creepy I slept with my gun under my pillow that night. *shudder* (She said no thank you and started peddling.)


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Yes. It's the same damn playbook, just with genders reversed:
> 
> -Don't text him more than he texts you
> -Play it cool, don't show you're too interested (or he'll rabbit)
> -Make it look like you have lots of option
> -don't always be available; don't answer the phone too quick
> 
> Yada, Yada, Yada, blah, blah, blah.


Where do you get those? Because the only thing that I'm aware of that would even be in the neighborhood is to avoid being needy/clingy. A 2/3 communication ratio... solid. a 1/10 communication ratio... needy. High maintenance. Absolutely we jet... we don't want all that work just to keep her on even keel.

Play it cool and have lots of options? No. Making the approach is pretty damn scary and most guys have to psych themselves up to do it (we even have a 10 second rule... if you don't go talk to her within 10 seconds of seeing her, you're probably never going to; you've allowed too much time for self-doubt to creep in). So no. We don't want you to play it cool after we make that leap and leave us in doubt - we hate doubt. If this is girl game, then girl game is the reason there is guy game. lol Having lots of options doesn't do anything for us at all. You might cut out the under confident guys who don't think they can compete though. I suppose its a way for you to help ensure you're getting a confident guy or weed out the weak I guess... but that's about your selection process, not a play on what works for him... or any appeal to him.

I don't want to be deluged by texts anymore than she does, but most women out text me and its not a negative. Quick replies certainly have never bothered me. I think its another counter-intuitive thing that this sort of behavior is so often a turn off for women when the roles are reversed. A friend of mine thinks its the quiet stoic man stereotype - a woman doesn't want to be out talked. Maybe she'd rather be slightly clingy than perceive him to be clingy at all. No idea... but its a real thing... I run into it all the time, I'm a talker, so I have to stay mindful. But as far as guys go, unless you're really burying him in texts or always asking what he's doing or where he is, we generally don't care.


----------



## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Where do you get those? Because the only thing that I'm aware of that would even be in the neighborhood is to avoid being needy/clingy. A 2/3 communication ratio... solid. a 1/10 communication ratio... needy. High maintenance. Absolutely we jet... we don't want all that work just to keep her on even keel.
> 
> *Play it cool and have lots of options? No*. *Making the approach is pretty damn scary and most guys have to psych themselves up to do it* (we even have a 10 second rule... if you don't go talk to her within 10 seconds of seeing her, you're probably never going to; you've allowed too much time for self-doubt to creep in). So no. *We don't want you to play it cool after we make that leap and leave us in doubt - we hate doubt.* If this is girl game, then girl game is the reason there is guy game. lol *Having lots of options doesn't do anything for us at all. *You might cut out the under confident guys who don't think they can compete though. I suppose its a way for you to help ensure you're getting a confident guy or weed out the weak I guess... *but that's about your selection process, not a play on what works for him... or any appeal to him.*
> 
> I don't want to be deluged by texts anymore than she does, but most women out text me and its not a negative. Quick replies certainly have never bothered me. I think its another counter-intuitive thing that this sort of behavior is so often a turn off for women when the roles are reversed. A friend of mine thinks its the quiet stoic man stereotype - a woman doesn't want to be out talked. Maybe she'd rather be slightly clingy than perceive him to be clingy at all. No idea... but its a real thing... I run into it all the time, I'm a talker, so I have to stay mindful. *But as far as guys go, unless you're really burying him in texts or always asking what he's doing or where he is, we generally don't care.*


Dvls, we could have more and better conversation if you would accept that your experience doesn't describe everyone's.

The things I bolded are things that are your experience but not necessarily other people's. You don't get to speak for all men, even if you can speak for a lot of men (the ones who are very similar to you).

The bolded things are stuff that are opposite to my husband's experiences, for instance.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> But if some guy tells me I "look amazing" while I'm minding my own business pumping gas, I'm pretty sure that he's (a) lying and (b) after something.


I am trying to get something: a date! Yes, I want dates with women I'm attracted to. Its quite radical.

Should I go after women I think are ugly?

Do you ladies not see the catch 22? Compliment and we're after something. Don't compliment and we're passive-aggressive manipulative gamers who are after something. 

Sadly, this contradictory nonsense is exactly the experience of most men. Yes, we pursued you because you're cute. We don't know you. We know you're cute. If you weren't attractive to us, nothing else about you would make us pursue you. Is being physically attracted to someone really that criminal AA?

If I tell you you look amazing, its because I think you look amazing. I don't make it up to get a date or sleep with you... if I wasn't attracted, why would I want the date?? Whether you accept a date with me or not is your prerogative.

omg headache.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls, we could have more and better conversation if you would accept that your experience doesn't describe everyone's.
> 
> The things I bolded are things that are your experience but not necessarily other people's. You don't get to speak for all men, even if you can speak for a lot of men (the ones who are very similar to you).
> 
> The bolded things are stuff that are opposite to my husband's experiences, for instance.


Exactly, there will be a different 'approach' depending on your overall attraction level/ who you likes overall attraction level and how they interact.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls, we could have more and better conversation if you would accept that your experience doesn't describe everyone's.
> 
> The things I bolded are things that are your experience but not necessarily other people's. You don't get to speak for all men, even if you can speak for a lot of men (the ones who are very similar to you).
> 
> The bolded things are stuff that are opposite to my husband's experiences, for instance.


The one that puzzles me is the "getting a confident guy or weeding out the weak."

I don't necessarily see a less confident guy as 'weak'.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wysh, I don't either so I'm not sure what you mean.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Wysh, I don't either so I'm not sure what you mean.


From Devils quote that you were referencing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I was saying that his quote is NOT necessarily the same experience as other men.

He is the one making assumptions about "weeding out the weak" or whatever. He was responding to always alone saying that there is similar manipulation tactics women use in the early stages of dating. I don't know of any woman trying to "weed out the weak" in the way he is saying it.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> I was saying that his quote is NOT necessarily the same experience as other men.
> 
> He is the one making assumptions about "weeding out the weak" or whatever. He was responding to always alone saying that there is similar manipulation tactics women use in the early stages of dating. I don't know of any woman trying to "weed out the weak" in the way he is saying it.


Yes, that's what I meant. I intended my post to be an addition to yours, just did it somewhat clumsily.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I think Dvls has it in his head that his way and what he has experienced and the books/websites he has read are some kind of overall TRUTH in game...but the experiences he shares are only common among guys who are a lot like him. (And Dvls, I'm not saying it doesn't work for you, I'm sure it does).

Same way that my friends, who are a lot like me, have had similar experiences as I have had.

And girls who are nothing like me have reported totally different experiences.

There are books and games for many different types of people, because we all need to improve in different areas.

Just like there is the book The Surrendered Wife, which is good advice for some women and absolutely the WORST advice ever for other women. And the book Why Men Love B*tches...great advice for "nice girls", bad advice for "bad girls". If you are a "nice girl" you probably need to b*tch up a bit, and if you are a "bad girl", you probably need to tone it down a bit. (generally speaking)


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls, we could have more and better conversation if you would accept that your experience doesn't describe everyone's.
> 
> The things I bolded are things that are your experience but not necessarily other people's. You don't get to speak for all men, even if you can speak for a lot of men (the ones who are very similar to you).
> 
> The bolded things are stuff that are opposite to my husband's experiences, for instance.


That's great, and why I so often say "generally". I use blanket statements for emphasis... but you know by now my posts are riddle with "mosts", "generally" and similar qualifiers. I know you're bright enough to know that its physical impossible for me to know ALL men, so I'm sure you can make the mental adjustment and realize that I'm speaking emphatically and not from omnipotence.

I don't find much use in exceptions, but just so we're clear on the bolded sentences:

-Your husband was attracted to you because of the other men who were attracted to you? This doesn't gel with how you've described him before. The type of guy who wants what HE wants, not wants something because other people want it. A leader, not a follower.

-Second bolded sentence: note... *most guys*, right there in your bold.

-Your husband enjoys doubt?

-Your husband enjoys putting his phone down for awhile and returning to a text wall? He enjoys your diligence in keeping tabs on where he is and what he is doing at all times?

I'm very confident in saying the vast majority of guys don't. Sorry if you took me as claiming the literally impossible.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I am trying to get something: a date! Yes, I want dates with women I'm attracted to. Its quite radical.
> 
> Should I go after women I think are ugly?
> 
> Do you ladies not see the catch 22? Compliment and we're after something. Don't compliment and we're passive-aggressive manipulative gamers who are after something.
> 
> Sadly, this contradictory nonsense is exactly the experience of most men. Yes, we pursued you because you're cute. We don't know you. We know you're cute. If you weren't attractive to us, nothing else about you would make us pursue you. Is being physically attracted to someone really that criminal AA?
> 
> If I tell you you look amazing, its because I think you look amazing. I don't make it up to get a date or sleep with you... if I wasn't attracted, why would I want the date?? Whether you accept a date with me or not is your prerogative.
> 
> omg headache.


An extreme compliment sounds like you are trying too hard to impress and sincerity is up in the air. And as I pointed out, WHERE we are when you compliment is a big deal.

Being attracted to a woman is fine but if a woman looks amazing, she's heard it before. She's hit on a ton. To stand out you have to be observant about something they don't hear every day. Her toenail polish matches her dress perfectly, her hairstyle is a perfect compliment to a summery dress, etc. but you won't get anywhere at a gas station. No time to evaluate you.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dvls, I don't agree with your "mosts" either, sorry.

I don't think your experience matches "most" men, not by a long shot, nor do I agree with your "generally". I'd say your experience matches maybe about 30% of men or less.


----------



## Faithful Wife

For one thing Dvls, your experience as you retell it, seems to have you doing all of the pursuit and women being the "pickers". That is not the experience of all men, some are being pursued by women a lot and the men are the "pickers".


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

WyshIknew said:


> The one that puzzles me is the "getting a confident guy or weeding out the weak."
> 
> I don't necessarily see a less confident guy as 'weak'.


Its just a figure of speech Wysh, derived from most (<-- qualified just for you FW. ;D) women's preference for confidence. If a woman has a bunch of suitors, the under confident guy will likely self-reject. Ergo... "weeding out the weak" - figure of speech, not literally weak as in physically weak.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls, I don't agree with your "mosts" either, sorry.
> 
> I don't think your experience matches "most" men, not by a long shot, nor do I agree with your "generally". I'd say your experience matches maybe about 30% of men or less.


Suit yourself. I'm not typing your view now am I?


----------



## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> -Your husband was attracted to you because of the other men who were attracted to you? This doesn't gel with how you've described him before. The type of guy who wants what HE wants, not wants something because other people want it. A leader, not a follower.
> 
> -Second bolded sentence: note... *most guys*, right there in your bold.
> 
> -Your husband enjoys doubt?
> 
> -Your husband enjoys putting his phone down for awhile and returning to a text wall? He enjoys your diligence in keeping tabs on where he is and what he is doing at all times?
> 
> I'm very confident in saying the vast majority of guys don't. Sorry if you took me as claiming the literally impossible.


All of this just sounds sarcastic so I don't even know what to answer...again you seem to think that your experience is far more common than other mens.

But as one example, yes my husband knew I was dating other guys when we met and that we were not exclusive and we both were multi-dating.

This made me more interesting to him, not less.

He resolved to get all the other men out of my rotation and rise to the top, which he did.

And one of the dating books I was reading at the time described how he would do exactly that, and he did...so as I said, the books you are reading are going to be ones that match your experience. But there are other books and methods that match other people's experience.

I didn't have to pretend I was in high demand for dates, I actually was. And he knew that.

I know you don't like the multi-dating idea but some men and women have no problem with it.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't find much use in exceptions, but just so we're clear on the bolded sentences:


What someone will define exception will be different to another persons definition, depending on their own experiences.


----------



## doubletrouble

I used to do a compliment game. But it was a game to prove I was sincere. 

If I was in a bar or other gathering, and I saw a pretty woman, just before I left I would go to her and say, "I have to leave, but before I go I wanted to tell you that I think you are by far the prettiest woman here."

And I would have to leave, to make it sincere. And it was sincere. 

There were several times when I was invited to join her, but I left. I had to, you see.


----------



## WyshIknew

doubletrouble said:


> I used to do a compliment game. But it was a game to prove I was sincere.
> 
> If I was in a bar or other gathering, and I saw a pretty woman, just before I left I would go to her and say, "I have to leave, but before I go I wanted to tell you that I think you are by far the prettiest woman here."
> 
> And I would have to leave, to make it sincere. And it was sincere.
> 
> There were several times when I was invited to join her, but I left. I had to, you see.


Now that is brill. I bet they spent some time wondering. piqued their interest.


----------



## WyshIknew

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its just a figure of speech Wysh, derived from most (<-- qualified just for you FW. ;D) women's preference for confidence. If a woman has a bunch of suitors, the under confident guy will likely self-reject. Ergo... "weeding out the weak" - figure of speech, not literally weak as in physically weak.


Oh I got that.

I just think that just because some guy isn't all up in your face, "look at me babe", doesn't mean he is 'weak', he might be a quiet person.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> For one thing Dvls, your experience as you retell it, seems to have you doing all of the pursuit and women being the "pickers". That is not the experience of all men, some are being pursued by women a lot and the men are the "pickers".


There's a funny thing about "picking", everyone is doing it. If you pursue, you picked who to pursue. If you're passive, you pick from who picks you. If you believe surveys however, the majority of women prefer the man to approach.

I know some men are pursued regularly... generally by certain aggressive women. So? They and the aggressive women who go after them are an itty bitty minority. I can prove this at will in ANY singles scene. Though it totally makes sense they'd have more weight in your mind if they're getting so much of your attention. Either that, or we observe quite different things in the wild. Maybe you consider the "eyes" an approach.

It is indeed a rare thing when a woman makes the initial approach to me (they make secondary approaches all the time - my having previously broken the ice and moved on). If your intent is to bash me, I'm not bothered. We can't all be sex gods. I'm happy to go after what I want.


----------



## Cosmos

Faithful Wife said:


> That's true in general, Cosmos...but I do work with a guy who is a little screwy in the head, and he will come talk to people at their desk and tell them these long drawn out stories that always illustrate either his brilliance or his efforts or the fact that he saw or did something bigger and better than anyone else ever on the planet...and no matter how polite or rude people are in trying to get him to understand they don't really care and aren't listening, he will just go on and on and finish his story.
> 
> I've heard everything from ghost stories, to conspiracy theories, to his own war stories (of murder, etc), to these amazing adventures he has been on, to his personal theories, to his political views, to the story of meeting his wife and their history, etc. It is obvious as he's telling these stories that he thinks HIS story is far more fascinating than anyone else's...as shown by the fact that he knows literally nothing about me yet I know his life story.
> 
> He definitely tries to overpower the listener...not sure what he gets out of it?


He probably takes that glazed look of boredom in people's eyes as admiration? :rofl:


----------



## Faithful Wife

There are lots of women who love the shy men. There are different game rules for those guys and gals.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

WyshIknew said:


> Oh I got that.
> 
> I just think that just because some guy isn't all up in your face, "look at me babe", doesn't mean he is 'weak', he might be a quiet person.


Didn't mean to imply he was. Totally just a figure of speech. Just because one is quiet doesn't mean one self-rejects. Under confident men self-reject.


----------



## doubletrouble

WyshIknew said:


> Now that is brill. I bet they spent some time wondering. piqued their interest.


That's what I was hoping for. I never met one of them again.


----------



## Faithful Wife

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> There's a funny thing about "picking", everyone is doing it. If you pursue, you picked who to pursue. If you're passive, you pick from who picks you. If you believe surveys however, the majority of women prefer the man to approach.
> 
> I know some men are pursued regularly... generally by certain aggressive women. So? They and the aggressive women who go after them are an itty bitty minority. I can prove this at will in ANY singles scene. Though it totally makes sense they'd have more weight in your mind if they're getting so much of your attention. Either that, or we observe quite different things in the wild. Maybe you consider the "eyes" an approach.
> 
> It is indeed a rare thing when a woman makes the initial approach to me (they make secondary approaches all the time - my having previously broken the ice and moved on). If your intent is to bash me, I'm not bothered. We can't all be sex gods. I'm happy to go after what I want.


Being someone who is regularly pursued by the opposite sex says nothing about a person's worthiness or not. You are the one implying that's what I am saying, but I'm not.

Some people just get pursued and some don't. The ones who are pursued are not necessarily pursued by people they would like to date.

And there are some people who are never pursued, both men and women, although they are very worthy and attractive.

A lot of it has to do with where you live. More of it has to do with what your vibe is.

You can take all this as "bashing"...or you could see what I'm really saying: your experience is not the "norm" or even the average. I have no reason to bash you.

Again, I'm sure all the game you've learned actually does work for you. And I'm sure you meet and connect with people who are like you, so it works for them, too.

But most people aren't like you. I'd say you are in the minority, actually (like I guessed, 30% or so).

Not sure why you think I'm bashing you when others are agreeing with me, too. Are they bashing you, too?


----------



## WyshIknew

Mind you who am I to say Devils is wrong?

My lack of track record speaks for itself. :rofl:

Just airing my thoughts.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WyshIknew said:


> Mind you who am I to say Devils is wrong?
> 
> My lack of track record speaks for itself. :rofl:
> 
> Just airing my thoughts.


I don't think he is wrong, I think for his own experiences he knows what is going on pretty well. I just don't think it is the most common type of experience by a long shot.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> All of this just sounds sarcastic so I don't even know what to answer...again you seem to think that your experience is far more common than other mens.
> 
> But as one example, yes my husband knew I was dating other guys when we met and that we were not exclusive and we both were multi-dating.
> 
> This made me more interesting to him, not less.
> 
> He resolved to get all the other men out of my rotation and rise to the top, which he did.


So you're saying his interest wasn't so much about you as it was influenced by his competitive desire to beat the other men? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that sounds creepy competitive to me. I'd certainly be a little weirded about by a girl who derived some of her interest in me from simply her desire to be better than the other women. For that reason alone she wouldn't be better than the other women in my book.

I suppose those guys exist... although I know of none. Women dating a bunch of guys aren't more or less interesting to me or any guys I've ever hung out with. Its not an attractive quality I've ever seen shared on seduction forums or dating forums. Why is this conspicuously absent if its common? What about it would make such a woman more interesting? As for myself, she could have 1000 men all wanting her, and if I'm not into her of her own merit, those men don't sway my opinion. It doesn't add one iota to her attractiveness. If I want to throw my towel into the ring (and I have competed for a woman's interest with other guys many times on nights out - I've told some of these stories before), its entirely based on my interest in her... the other guys don't really exist. In the dating context, if she's dating other men I don't want her. That's not a competitive/anti-competitive choice, its a choice not to share my women. I accept your take on your husband, though I'm not sure how many women would view a man having greater interest as a result of just wanting to beat the other guys as much of a positive. I don't however accept it as common. Your experience, dandy. Common. No way.



Faithful Wife said:


> And one of the dating books I was reading at the time described how he would do exactly that, and he did...so as I said, the books you are reading are going to be ones that match your experience. But there are other books and methods that match other people's experience.
> 
> I didn't have to pretend I was in high demand for dates, I actually was. And he knew that.


If I may digress... is that a clever jab? You are so good at those!  Do you mean to imply I'm pretending? Because I have no reason to doubt you when you say you were in demand and I don't think I've even ever questioned your claim. If that's what you say that's what you say. I am curious though, why were you reading the books if you already had a mob of men after you?

I accept your experience in dating... however long ago that was, or at whatever age you were doing it, and what all that entails. I have no idea what dating is like when you're older, nor what dating was like a long time ago. However, I'm in the dating world right now among the swaths of college and young professional dating-age people. Are 50+ y/o women more assertive than the women I see every weekend? Because I see very few guys getting approached. Your husband is probably twice my age... and you know, I have no idea what it was like for him dating before re-marrying, nor any idea what dating was like 40 years ago. If you say women threw themselves at him, I take your word for it. It's all good, I don't know otherwise. I do know however, that what you describe his experience as is NOT what I see every weekend. It is not the experience of most men, nor is what you describe of yourself, the experience of most women. Half of women have had fewer than 4 sexual partners in their lifetimes... you've described yourself as a very sexually assertive alpha woman... don't you think your experience is quite different from most? Because its more than obvious anywhere I've ever been that women aren't running around approaching guys... not just myself... but virtually any guy. It is not common. Its almost always the guys who approach the women, and according to surveys of women, that's exactly what most women prefer.

It sure would be interesting to pull up a barstool, have a beer with you and people watch, because we're seeing very, VERY different things.



Faithful Wife said:


> I know you don't like the multi-dating idea but some men and women have no problem with it.


I never said they did. I said that the number of other guys in orbit around a woman doesn't make a woman even the slightest bit more attractive to most guys (added the qualifier again for you). I wasn't even referring to multi-dating even, but that girl at the bar drawing a lot of attention from several men. Its the girl that's drawing the attention of all the men, not the attention she's getting from other men that's drawing men.


----------



## Giro flee

Am I the only woman who has never given her number out to a complete stranger? I've been approached many times, but it never felt safe enough to hand out information to a man I don't know. I've always dated people I've known through work, school, or friends and family, that never ensured safety but I felt more confident that way... Am I weird?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dvls, perhaps you can ask some of the other women who agree with me for their assessments? Since you seem to think I'm picking on you/bashing you and making things up, yet others do agree with me so...


----------



## Faithful Wife

Also Dvls, here's a dating forum that is mostly women who are multi-dating...with lots of talk about a type of "girl game" and lots of other ideas that you claim not to see anywhere on the internet.

All Message Boards


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> I think Dvls has it in his head that his way and what he has experienced and the books/websites he has read are some kind of overall TRUTH in game...but the experiences he shares are only common among guys who are a lot like him. (And Dvls, I'm not saying it doesn't work for you, I'm sure it does).
> 
> Same way that my friends, who are a lot like me, have had similar experiences as I have had.


It is not *my* thing, or a *like me* thing. I have the conspicuous absence of references from men of being attracted to women with a lot of pursuers across a whole variety of media - sources of all kinds. There's no discussion of such a thing. Its widely discussed with genders reversed, but I've never seen a guy relate a flip of interest in how many pursuers she has. Not on dating sites, not on seduction / pua sites, not in real life... no where. These people are not all like me or even remotely so. Your expressing it is the first time I've ever heard someone claim a woman with a bunch of suitors was more attractive. The woman may be attractive, the suitors add nothing to it. Why would they? Guys wondering what's so fascinating about her like women do when the genders are reversed? No. She's hot. That's what's so fascinating about her.

Didn't you say you had a sexually liberal youth? You think this experience is very common for women, while knowing that half of women have a total of 4 sexual partners in their lifetime?

I'm sorry, it just doesn't add up to me.


----------



## FrenchFry

doubletrouble said:


> I used to do a compliment game. But it was a game to prove I was sincere.
> 
> If I was in a bar or other gathering, and I saw a pretty woman, just before I left I would go to her and say, "I have to leave, but before I go I wanted to tell you that I think you are by far the prettiest woman here."
> 
> And I would have to leave, to make it sincere. And it was sincere.
> 
> There were several times when I was invited to join her, but I left. I had to, you see.


Oh snap, you did that to my bestie! She loved it, by the way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

OK Dvls...your experience trumps all. Whatever you say.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> *I accept your experience in dating... however long ago that was, or at whatever age you were doing it, and what all that entails. I have no idea what dating is like when you're older, nor what dating was like a long time ago. However, I'm in the dating world right now among the swaths of college and young professional dating-age people. *Are 50+ y/o women more assertive than the women I see every weekend? Because I see very few guys getting approached. *Your husband is probably twice my age... and you know, I have no idea what it was like for him dating before re-marrying, nor any idea what dating was like 40 years ago. *If you say women threw themselves at him, I take your word for it. It's all good, I don't know otherwise. I do know however, that what you describe his experience as is NOT what I see every weekend. It is not the experience of most men, nor is what you describe of yourself, the experience of most women. Half of women have had fewer than 4 sexual partners in their lifetimes... you've described yourself as a very sexually assertive alpha woman... don't you think your experience is quite different from most? Because its more than obvious anywhere I've ever been that women aren't running around approaching guys... not just myself... but virtually any guy. It is not common. Its almost always the guys who approach the women, and according to surveys of women, that's exactly what most women prefer.
> 
> It sure would be interesting to pull up a barstool, have a beer with you and people watch, because we're seeing very, VERY different things.


:scratchhead: 
Don't really see what this has to do with anything.
I'm pretty sure her husband is like 50 and she's like 10 years older than you, you make it sound like there's at least a generation gap.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls, perhaps you can ask some of the other women who agree with me for their assessments? Since you seem to think I'm picking on you/bashing you and making things up, yet others do agree with me so...


Uhm... I just thought your "pretending" line must be a cute jab, since I've never even implied you were making anything up.

Others agree with you so... what? I go out with my gf almost every weekend. The women aren't approaching the guys. Before I met my gf and I was one of the single guys, the women weren't approaching the guys. Women approaching men is comparatively rare relative to men's approaches of women. It is not common, and on any given night, if I gave you $100 for every female approach and you gave me $10 for every male approach, I'd end the night with a healthy profit.

Most women prefer to be approached, not to do the approaching. Its been surveyed a hundred times, its even been born out by a poll here before.

In spite of all that, you want to insist that its common for women to approach? I'd also love to know the basis for thinking men are more attracted to women with a bunch of other boyfriends.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> :scratchhead:
> Don't really see what this has to do with anything.


She's way older than me. I have no way of knowing what dating is like then or how it differs from dating in your 20s. Its an acknowledgement of something I know nothing about.

What I do know, is that women in the bars and clubs of Baltimore, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, New Orleans, Pensacola, Dallas, Denver, or Phoenix are approaching guys in numbers that could be in any way described as common.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Again Dvls...you've just devolved down into being shady and bashing me so...what exactly do you want from me? I was being nice and discussing, but you want your experience to be the shining example for everyone and you doubt mine so....have at it.

You also don't know my details at all, and that's fine...but it would be best not to speculate.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> OK Dvls...your experience trumps all. Whatever you say.


I'll trust my eyes before I trust yours. Sorry. Like I said, we should go out... make that bet. It would be awesome, provided we could stand the company.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> She's way older than me. I have no way of knowing what dating is like then or how it differs from dating in your 20s. Its an acknowledgement of something I know nothing about.


There is about the same age gap between her and you as there is between you and me. If she's way older than you, then your way older than me and really have no place saying what it's like to date in you 20's nowadays.

Sounds like that post was just trying to make what faithful said invalid nowadays by over dramatizing her and her husbands ages make out like her dating experiences were long long ago.


----------



## Faithful Wife

As a dating coach, I work with people of all ages, 20's up to 60's. There really aren't that many differences in the way people date and at various ages, these days anyway.

Some are just hooking up.

Some are looking for marriage.

Some are in open relationships.

Some say they want marriage but are really just hooking up and don't know what they really want.

Some have a lot of challenges in their dating lives, some do not.

Some are pursued by many, some are pursued by none. Some are shy, some are not. Some are confident, some are not.

I have found there are groups of the above types, but so many groups and types that there really isn't a "common" way for any group.

What works best is the individual approach...meaning, each dater has their own sitch and working within that sitch is what will work best.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Being someone who is regularly pursued by the opposite sex says nothing about a person's worthiness or not. You are the one implying that's what I am saying, but I'm not.


I have no idea if you said it to bash me or not. You've been down that road before. I'm not sure why you'd bring up "picking" otherwise. You're basing your argument on my experience, but my experience isn't what I'm speaking for. I'm speaking for what I witness almost every weekend. Where are all these women approaching men? I'm a socialite and obsessive people watcher and I see very little of it. Perhaps this is your experience as a pursuer, but it is not what I see when I'm out. Women rarely approach.



Faithful Wife said:


> You can take all this as "bashing"...or you could see what I'm really saying: your experience is not the "norm" or even the average. I have no reason to bash you.
> 
> Again, I'm sure all the game you've learned actually does work for you. And I'm sure you meet and connect with people who are like you, so it works for them, too.
> 
> But most people aren't like you. I'd say you are in the minority, actually (like I guessed, 30% or so).


My experience dating is far outside the norm. 30% is way high. Seeing what goes on around me IS the norm. I'm not basing my opinion on who approaches ME. Hell, good luck even trying to approach me... I'm probably already talking to another girl and drifting back and forth between her, someone else and the party I came in with. She'd have to be really aggressive. 

Also, my friends are from very different walks of life. I've said before that I'm a social chameleon. Its common to the personality type. I have distinct sets of friends that don't even interact with each other. I hang out with all of them. I only know one guy who gets approached by more women than he approaches... a guy on my softball team. He's unarguably a great looking guy and gets tons of attention until they find out he works security (this is a town full of PhDs, engineers, techies and intellectual or career snobbery - we have the most per capita next to Los Alamos). Still he's content and gets plenty of women, even if none want to stay with him. I'm not sure if he's ever wanted any of them to stay either.



Faithful Wife said:


> Not sure why you think I'm bashing you when others are agreeing with me, too. Are they bashing you, too?


Agreeing with you on what? That its common for women to approach men? Unless the word common changed meaning or everywhere I've lived has been shunted to an alternate dimension... its just not. Its common for a few women to approach an even smaller few men, but its uncommon overall for women to approach men. And surveys of women say they prefer the men to approach.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> There is about the same age gap between her and you as there is between you and me. If she's way older than you, then your way older than me and really have no place saying what it's like to date in you 20's nowadays.
> 
> Sounds like that post was just trying to make what faithful said invalid nowadays by over dramatizing her and her husbands ages make out like her dating experiences were long long ago.


No, if memory serves she's about double my age. Unless you're in your teens, you are not half my age.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> No, if memory serves she's about double my age. Unless you're in your teens, you are not half my age.


She's not she's in her mid 40's lol


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Also Dvls, here's a dating forum that is mostly women who are multi-dating...with lots of talk about a type of "girl game" and lots of other ideas that you claim not to see anywhere on the internet.
> 
> All Message Boards


Before looking at the site: Women multi-dating saying men want women who have a lot of boyfriends? Is it surprising they'd think so? Confirmation bias no?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

TiggyBlue said:


> She's not she's in her mid 40's


I could swear she's previously told me she was like 60 in an old PM - she wasn't specific, but she sure implied it was way up there. Kids married off and with kids of their own... I dunno, I'll look for the PM.


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## Faithful Wife

Thanks for sticking up for my Tiggy. (Tiggy has a lot of my history, plus has seen a bunch of pics of me and hubby). It is ok, though...Dvls will think what he wants.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I said that the number of other guys in orbit around a woman doesn't make a woman even the slightest bit more attractive to most guys (added the qualifier again for you). I wasn't even referring to multi-dating even, but that girl at the bar drawing a lot of attention from several men. Its the girl that's drawing the attention of all the men, not the attention she's getting from other men that's drawing men.


Haha. You've been quick to assume that if more than one woman shows attraction, it must be because of the other women --has nothing to do with the guy. Why is that, I wonder?

When it's so clear that it's actually the person at the centre of attention is drawing it.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Play it cool and have lots of options? No. Making the approach is pretty damn scary and most guys have to psych themselves up to do it (we even have a 10 second rule... if you don't go talk to her within 10 seconds of seeing her, you're probably never going to; you've allowed too much time for self-doubt to creep in). So no. We don't want you to play it cool after we make that leap and leave us in doubt - we hate doubt.


What I was referring to was the dgaf advice that you preach all the time. Women are also often schooled in these same dgaf strategies.

And some of us quite sincerely just dgaf


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## DvlsAdvc8

well, on the bright side I think we agreed on compliments. lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone

Giro flee said:


> Am I the only woman who has never given her number out to a complete stranger? I've been approached many times, but it never felt safe enough to hand out information to a man I don't know. I've always dated people I've known through work, school, or friends and family, that never ensured safety but I felt more confident that way... Am I weird?


No. The only information I'll give to a random stranger would be first name only -- if even that. My experience is that it's mostly a terrible way to meet people.

Now if circumstances allow for a bit more sustained interaction *and* I'm still interested, *and* he's still interested, then maybe I might consider it. But that perfect storm is a rarity. 

So rare, I'm not that it has ever actually happened that way.:scratchhead:


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Haha. You've been quick to assume that if more than one woman shows attraction, it must be because of the other women --has nothing to do with the guy. Why is that, I wonder?
> 
> When it's so clear that it's actually the person at the centre of attention is drawing it.


Ha, no, its just an area where I think men and women think differently. I think women are more heavily influenced by the behavior of other women than men tend to be by other men. I have no impression of men being influenced by a woman having a bunch of men. Even women's interest in the guy with a few women hanging on him is weak imo. Both men and women think, "what's special about that guy?" Thats the weak interest. For the woman with a bunch of men, I'm not really sure of other women's opinion... but I think most men's opinions are focused on her. She gets noticed if she's hot, and not noticed if she's not, regardless of the other guys. Note, I'm not talking about multi dating, but the perception of status. Guy with girls on his arm... status goes up. Woman with men on her arm... no added status. Sucky and unfair, but thats my sense of it. Nobody Ive known cares that she's got a bunch of guys... Social status isn't something we're looking for in women for the most part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> What I was referring to was the dgaf advice that you preach all the time. Women are also often schooled in these same dgaf strategies.
> 
> And some of us quite sincerely just dgaf


Dgaf is a different concept from your examples. Its about not walking on eggshells or being concerned with rejection - thus freeing one up to actually be oneself without feeling pressure to please... which is how many men are raised to act around females - the old "be nice to girls" like they're porcelain problem. Be careful, nice and pleasing. Dgaf is about re-conditioning one's mindset. Remove worry, insecurity, self doubt and just dgaf... and poof, guys behave in more fun, more confident, more attractive, more assertive ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DvlsAdvc8

On giving your number to strange men... interesting, I have no idea how Id approach trying to alter an established platonic relationship into a romantic relationship. I dont think ive ever done that. Is that what you mean? Otherwise you're relying on introductions to new people. Just seems so cynical to me. Most people Ive met randomly are pretty decent people. The anti stranger thing seems so gloomy. Half the people I know wouldn't be in my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Dgaf is a different concept from your examples. Its about not walking on eggshells or being concerned with rejection - thus freeing one up to actually be oneself without feeling pressure to please... which is how many men are raised to act around females - the old "be nice to girls" like they're porcelain problem. Be careful, nice and pleasing. Dgaf is about re-conditioning one's mindset.


It's not different at all. Girls are totally trained to be pleasers and will often spend inordinate amounts of time and energy twisting themselves into whatever a boy wants them to be. And then the exact opposite of that for the next boy.

The advice to them is to stop being so eager to please and play various games to make him come to you.

Same problem. Same game.


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## Faithful Wife

There are lots of books to help women like that. Some women have a natural tendency to chase men in a way that is overwhelming to men. These women will then do all the man-pleasing stuff, too, and "oh yeah I love that kind of music!" stuff. It doesn't tend to work because it isn't authentic. It may be her natural tendency to chase men, but the behaviors she does which she believes are going to make him like her are manipulation.

Also there is the common problem of sleeping with a guy "too soon" (for the circumstances) because a woman is under the impression that this will make him "fall for her" or that it will mean they are exclusive. Then when she realizes her plan didn't work (even though she may also have wanted the sex) she is hurt. But the advice in these books to her would be, you were not being totally authentic about what you really wanted. In other words, if you have sex "because" any reason other than just because you wanted sex for its own sake, then you were being inauthentic and it normally will backfire.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The anti stranger thing seems so gloomy. Half the people I know wouldn't be in my life.


Not wanting to give personal information to a random dude who thinks you're hot enough for a quick bang is hardly "anti-stranger".

And, yes, most people are decent. Doesn't mean you want to hang out with them. Certainly not for an introvert like me who is pretty selective about who I spend my time with. 

I meet most people through work or mutual interests or projects that bring us together. Or other friends.


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## over20

Giro flee said:


> Am I the only woman who has never given her number out to a complete stranger? I've been approached many times, but it never felt safe enough to hand out information to a man I don't know. I've always dated people I've known through work, school, or friends and family, that never ensured safety but I felt more confident that way... Am I weird?


Nope...I haven't either, ....I have given out a WRONG number to a guy to get him to stop talking to me.....:rofl:


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## over20

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Uhm... I just thought your "pretending" line must be a cute jab, since I've never even implied you were making anything up.
> 
> Others agree with you so... what? I go out with my gf almost every weekend. The women aren't approaching the guys. Before I met my gf and I was one of the single guys, the women weren't approaching the guys. Women approaching men is comparatively rare relative to men's approaches of women. It is not common, and on any given night, if I gave you $100 for every female approach and you gave me $10 for every male approach, I'd end the night with a healthy profit.
> 
> Most women prefer to be approached, not to do the approaching. Its been surveyed a hundred times, its even been born out by a poll here before.
> 
> In spite of all that, you want to insist that its common for women to approach? I'd also love to know the basis for thinking men are more attracted to women with a bunch of other boyfriends.




I feel it's all about the chase, which personally I liked...In my single days I was much to shy to approach a guy and didn't want to either...I did however, do the whole eye contact, touching hair bit to get his attention....


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## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> There are lots of books to help women like that. Some women have a natural tendency to chase men in a way that is overwhelming to men. These women will then do all the man-pleasing stuff, too, and "oh yeah I love that kind of music!" stuff. It doesn't tend to work because it isn't authentic. It may be her natural tendency to chase men, but the behaviors she does which she believes are going to make him like her are manipulation.


My problem was always the exact opposite. And the advice to me was always to become more of a man pleaser. Wear this or that, bat your eyes, tell him how smart and interesting he is, play down your competence/intellect, and so on.

I was always a miserable failure at it because it just isn't me.

But better that way, because what would I do with a guy with all sorts of false expectations? Keep disappointing him until he eventually leaves?


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## TiggyBlue

always_alone said:


> My problem was always the exact opposite. And the advice to me was always to become more of a man pleaser. Wear this or that, bat your eyes, tell him how smart and interesting he is, play down your competence/intellect, and so on.


Pretty much the contents of all girls magazines.


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## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> There are lots of books to help women like that. Some women have a natural tendency to chase men in a way that is overwhelming to men. These women will then do all the man-pleasing stuff, too, and "oh yeah I love that kind of music!" stuff. It doesn't tend to work because it isn't authentic. It may be her natural tendency to chase men, but the behaviors she does which she believes are going to make him like her are manipulation.


 I've never done these things, never lied about anything to please a guy... I was MYSELF... might have been a little shy at 1st...but couldn't fake it & BS to save my life.. I always had a sense -a self awareness that ..I'm not playing no darn charade for anybody.....if they don't like who I really am, it's all going to fall to the ground anyway.. 

I just sought someone authentically compatible...talking and sharing brings that into the light.. or you just fall away.... being honest to the core has plenty of humor with it.. and vulnerability...is a sweet combination.


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## Faithful Wife

SA, girls like you seem to always get snapped up by just the right guy. I don't know how to describe the quality I mean but, I have known many women like you. In fact, the one with the story I told about her future hubby mentioning marriage on the first date, she was a gal like you. A lot of it has to do with what you expect out of life, and if you simply expect a good person to find you and love you, it is more likely this will happen.


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## over20

TiggyBlue said:


> Pretty much the contents of all girls magazines.


Yes...and sometimes the men's mags as well


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> It's not different at all. Girls are totally trained to be pleasers and will often spend inordinate amounts of time and energy twisting themselves into whatever a boy wants them to be. And then the exact opposite of that for the next boy.
> 
> The advice to them is to stop being so eager to please and play various games to make him come to you.
> 
> Same problem. Same game.


That helps get him? I thought women were told to like whatever he likes and laugh at his jokes. lol

Edit... I should have read the next posts. Looks like you brought that up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

always_alone said:


> My problem was always the exact opposite. And the advice to me was always to become more of a man pleaser. Wear this or that, bat your eyes, tell him how smart and interesting he is, play down your competence/intellect, and so on.
> 
> I was always a miserable failure at it because it just isn't me.
> 
> But better that way, because what would I do with a guy with all sorts of false expectations? Keep disappointing him until he eventually leaves?


Just so you know, I'd never advise someone like you in that way.

I'd tell her to only date in circles where her intellectual equals were likely to be found. Which doesn't mean you'd have to date a colleague...just means you'd have to date someone who is honestly as smart as you are (might be hard to find but that's what I'd suggest).

I would NEVER say to you that you should dumb down or placate to men, evah! You'd totally get the wrong guy with that advice (which is what you said, too).


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## over20

always_alone said:


> It's not different at all. Girls are totally trained to be pleasers and will often spend inordinate amounts of time and energy twisting themselves into whatever a boy wants them to be. And then the exact opposite of that for the next boy.
> 
> The advice to them is to stop being so eager to please and play various games to make him come to you.
> 
> Same problem. Same game.


I see your point. I think though, women in general are people pleasers by nature. IMHO it is not just with men but with girlfriends, children, parents and such.


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## MRABoysHaveSmallPeanut

over20 said:


> I see your point. I think though, women in general are people pleasers by nature. IMHO it is not just with men but with girlfriends, children, parents and such.


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## heartsbeating

FrenchFry said:


> But at the same time, you'd appreciate compliments that were thrown out of niceness with no expectation of any sort of reciprocation. Those are the compliments I live for.


Well said. I love those compliments too.


The scenario with the compliment at the gas station... it was the initial question attached that would cause me to feel guarded. You're obviously trying to engage rather than simply giving a compliment and wishing her a good evening - along with it being at the gas station as FrenchFry already eloquently worded.

Like many things, tone is indicative with compliments. I like receiving compliments. It's rare that I'd receive a compliment from a stranger though. 

As for creep factor, last week on the train there was a man standing opposite me. I thought I noticed him looking at me. I glanced over to check then looked away again. I felt he was still looking at me. Another man got on the train and was standing next to me. It was when I noticed him looking at the other guy and then back to me, that I realized he also noticed it. I looked back at the man and sure enough, he was pretty much staring at me. I stared directly back with my 'Don't f*ck with me' expression (God knows what that looks like lol) until he looked away. Then I made sure he didn't get off at the same station as me. There's room in my mind that maybe he didn't even realize he was looking at me and had other stuff he was thinking about but... I've been followed home before (not from the train) and while I remained safe, it wasn't fun times. 

But a friend saying they love me as a brunette? I'll admit to lapping that up!


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## Jung_admirer

Hmmm... Compliments (words of admiration, a love language):

-I frequently compliment my partner, and she responds positively.
-I frequently compliment men.
-I am extremely careful about complimenting women other than my wife. We have friends that need this affirmation and are not getting it from their partner. Your good intentions aside, you are potentially setting up a situation where a friend may respond by crossing the friend boundary. In these cases I limit my compliments to external matters.... "Dinner was absolutely lovely". "Your son is intelligent and charming". "I'm so glad we had the chance to catch up, DW and I have missed your company"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone

Faithful Wife said:


> Just so you know, I'd never advise someone like you in that way.
> 
> I'd tell her to only date in circles where her intellectual equals were likely to be found. Which doesn't mean you'd have to date a colleague...just means you'd have to date someone who is honestly as smart as you are (might be hard to find but that's what I'd suggest).
> 
> I would NEVER say to you that you should dumb down or placate to men, evah! You'd totally get the wrong guy with that advice (which is what you said, too).


Good! Next time I need a dating coach, I'll call you.

I don't dumb down for anyone, no matter how much it costs me.


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## always_alone

over20 said:


> I see your point. I think though, women in general are people pleasers by nature. IMHO it is not just with men but with girlfriends, children, parents and such.


Women are trained to be people pleasers, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly does have its consequences, especially if carried too far.


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## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> That helps get him? I thought women were told to like whatever he likes and laugh at his jokes. lol


You've never heard a guy complain about a girl who is too clingy, too wrapped up in him, or say that he's lostinterest because she provides no challenge and always mirrors everything he says and does?

I know personality doesn't mean too much to you, but surely you and your friends want her to at least have one. No? Or maybe you like it if she's the one walking on eggshells desperately afraid of scaring you off?


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> You've never heard a guy complain about a girl who is too clingy, too wrapped up in him, or say that he's lostinterest because she provides no challenge and always mirrors everything he says and does?


I've complained about such women myself, but nothing you've said sounds clingy to me. It feels like you're jumping around... I'm not really following. A woman showing interest in his interests or laughing at his jokes is being clingy? And the counter to this is being aloof? I thought you said you're aloof and most people think you're a B? While I admit girl game isn't my thing and I have little awareness of what you're advised, it doesn't sound like there's any principles behind the advice I've heard - its all ad hoc scattershot... even contradictory sounding.

I don't figure men as being very complicated. Show that you're capable and interested in what we're saying; have some commonality to engage us on (even willingness to try our things); that you're interested in us; that you have some life of your own and we don't have to constantly entertain or validate you... and that's about it I think. This seems a lot simpler than what I gather most women want from men.



always_alone said:


> I know personality doesn't mean too much to you, but surely you and your friends want her to at least have one. No? Or maybe you like it if she's the one walking on eggshells desperately afraid of scaring you off?


Your view of me is so amazingly distorted. My gf has an absolutely wonderful personality. Her personality is why I wanted this relationship. If she was just hot my interest wouldn't have gotten past sleeping with her. I've only perceived a handful of women as being afraid I would leave. It wasn't my actions that gave them this feeling, it was their own built-in insecurities... and its a self-fulfilling prophecy every time. Worry about someone leaving you all the time, and you're going to make them want to leave. 

That's the sort of thing I refer to as needy. Wanting to know my whereabouts every second of the day, going crazy if I don't text back in minutes, texting way too much (and I mean WAY), relying on me for the entirety of her social life, talking about our future home together weeks into the relationship; getting way too emotional weeks into the relationship. Yo girl... slow your roll. This is the stuff that says needy/clingy to me. Know anyone who posts open ended misery on facebook? Sometimes its just "Sigh.", other times its "This is awful." Lame baiting to see if someone cares enough to ask "what's wrong?" - needy. Others do similar baiting for compliments, or baiting for affection. Tragic... but needy.

The advice for these women to attract men is simple. Stop being so needy. If you're going to complain, just complain... don't beg for concern or beat around the bush. That's a far cry from telling them to be aloof.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> SA, girls like you seem to always get snapped up by just the right guy. I don't know how to describe the quality I mean but, I have known many women like you. In fact, the one with the story I told about her future hubby mentioning marriage on the first date, she was a gal like you. A lot of it has to do with what you expect out of life, and if you simply expect a good person to find you and love you, it is more likely this will happen.


I was on the verge of deleting that post last night, thinking it probably sounds braggish in some ways, but it was not like that..I wouldn't even say I was all that confident in my youth.. I was on the shy side in High school, not popular, was never in any activities, on the poor side...my home life left much to be desired...but I had one thing... *I knew what I wanted*...

. I figured I had time on my side, I never had trouble with boys noticing me.. what I had trouble with was them having right intentions or wanting what I wanted (typical -most just seeking Fun & pleausure).....but I was young & not going to be a puppet to a user so I'd want to take his balls off afterwards...

You mentioned how some women need this book earlier ......

Why Men Love *****es: From Doormat to Dreamgirl - A Woman's Guide to Holding Her Own in a Relationship: Books 
(The Female equivalent to NMMNG)...I ran across this in Barnes & Nobles yrs ago... got a good chuckle out of that name & bought it for pure curiosity...

Starting reading it... how can I say this...I never had trouble being a bi*ch...kinda flows rather naturally ...(what that really means is being Assertive , speaking up for yourself, not going along to cater)....

I think I like being a little disagreeable / playing counter...just to see how others might react... it helps you get to know someone....I've had GF's where they always seem to agree..and you just think to yourself...how do you really trust this is how they feel.. I like some countering in all people.. it helps you work out conflict too.



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> That's the sort of thing I refer to as needy. Wanting to know my whereabouts every second of the day, going crazy if I don't text back in minutes, texting way too much (and I mean WAY), relying on me for the entirety of her social life, talking about our future home together weeks into the relationship; getting way too emotional weeks into the relationship. Yo girl... slow your roll. This is the stuff that says needy/clingy to me. Know anyone who posts open ended misery on facebook? Sometimes its just "Sigh.", other times its "This is awful." Lame baiting to see if someone cares enough to ask "what's wrong?" - needy. Others do similar baiting for compliments, or baiting for affection.
> 
> The advice for these women to attract men is simple. Stop being so needy. If you're going to complain, just complain... don't beg for concern. That's a far cry from telling them to be aloof.


These are the type of girls who really shouldn't be sleeping around, deep down they just want to love someone and someone to love them back... but they took the pleaser role, did what men wanted......and now their insecurities are in the high heavens...and much of this was due to how they have been treated by men over & over & over again...oh it's partly their fault.... don't misunderstand me.. but many of those women probably wouldn't be this way TODAY had they made better choices and waited for the Man to show his intentions 1st... so now they are lost in a cycle of pandering for something they may never find... It is very sad...


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

SimplyAmorous said:


> These are the type of girls who really shouldn't be sleeping around, deep down they just want to love someone and someone to love them back... but they took the pleaser role, did what men wanted......and now their insecurities are in the high heavens...and much of this was due to how they have been treated by men over & over & over again...oh it's partly their fault.... don't misunderstand me.. but many of those women probably wouldn't be this way TODAY had they made better choices and waited for the Man to show his intentions 1st... so now they are lost in a cycle of pandering for something they may never find... It is very sad...


I don't sense this is being a pleaser. TBH, the above analysis doesn't resonate with me at all. This is just pure lack of self-worth imo. Desperate for attention of any kind. I think they were this way before they ever dated a guy... maybe a childhood thing. You can be a pleaser and still be very confident in your sense of self.

When I see these facebook posts I think "bish... you need a shrink and some Zoloft." When I first got to know them I was all concerned and interested in their problems like I would anyone... but then you discover they are an endless pit of problems and need. They've learned that this is how to get attention.


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## Lionelhutz

I never compliment women unless they are immediate family or an indirect compliment such as referring to child rearing techniques or her home. 

I find it very sad but I just can't keep track of if, when or how my comment might be misinterpreted and be seen as creepy. There have been times when I really wanted to say something nice to someone because I thought she looked particularly good that day and or her spirits looked like they needed a lift. But it has to be said in just the right way and in the right circumstance and to the right person. By the time I have thought about all that it is not spontaneous and that in itself will make it sound potentially creepy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

SA...yeah you are the type of b*tch the book describes, lol! I am one, too, naturally. In the book the author says it stands for "babe in total control of herself" (kinda dumb but she was stretching it). So when I read that book I didn't get anything new out of it, but I was glad to know the book was there to offer to gals who would benefit from it.

It just describes an "accept no nonsense" type of approach to dating. It works well, if the practices can be done authentically (if you are faking it "just to get a guy", it won't work).


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## NobodySpecial

Why are we always talking about getting dates and hooking up on Talk About MARRIAGE?


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## Faithful Wife

You can talk about swinging instead, if you like.


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## samyeagar

NobodySpecial said:


> Why are we always talking about getting dates and hooking up on Talk About MARRIAGE?


Because a lot of people deal with dating and hooking up issues within marriage...just check out the CWI forums.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't sense this is being a pleaser. TBH, the above analysis doesn't resonate with me at all. This is just pure lack of self-worth imo. Desperate for attention of any kind. I think they were this way before they ever dated a guy... maybe a childhood thing. You can be a pleaser and still be very confident in your sense of self.
> 
> When I see these facebook posts I think "bish... you need a shrink and some Zoloft." When I first got to know them I was all concerned and interested in their problems like I would anyone... but then you discover they are an endless pit of problems and need. They've learned that this is how to get attention.


How we are treated in life...can and often does contribute to a lack of self worth... would you not agree.. sure many of these women probably had a lousy family life.. maybe no father.. much hurt along the way..... I don't have the answers, of course I understand what you mean... I see some FB posts like this myself and want to cringe for the poster..

My self esteem wasn't all that high in my youth..I was just strong minded.... I compared myself to other girls..for sure.. Yet I KNOW that I know that I know...had I allowed boys to get what they wanted & walked away.. I would have been far worse off.. from where I came from, feeling more alone than ever...asking myself "wasn't I good enough.... what is wrong with me?" ..

I don't really expect you to understand this because you could care less when people walk away, you are a self made man, and there is someone else to meet the next night...

But too...this may have more to do with personality or just the examples these women grew up with ...No one ever teaching them a better way, how to handle their emotions and expectations with the opposite sex .. a lesson in *EMOTIONAL BOUNDARIES*...taking ownership of where she is contributing to the messes she is ranting about.....to change her dynamic ..

I realize it's far more than just physical boundaries...which is what you are disagreeing with...

I was raised to stand on my own 2 feet, not makes excuses for myself.. a very tough love approach from my Step Mother.....I didn't like her but she was right in many ways...I find myself being similar with my kids.. 

I only surrounded myself with decent people.. that's half the battle..... I am going to say my Husband helped me see the Best in myself...and my confidence grew just being with him......He was someone I could trust ..I wasn't the type to ASSUME anything or push where I was not wanted..I find that a very very ugly thing... did a couple posts on that yesterday.. ...the whole *Neediness Dynamic* that destroys relationships ..you have seen me post that write up before... 

This thread ..... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-c...even-meet-women-you-find-creepy-sleezy-2.html 

...I bet you have lots of stories to offer with all your experiences with women !


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I've complained about such women myself, but nothing you've said sounds clingy to me. It feels like you're jumping around... I'm not really following. A woman showing interest in his interests or laughing at his jokes is being clingy?


Let me spell it out for you:

Women are trained to be pleasers and often will bend over backwards to be whatever he wants her to be (or what she thinks he wants her to be). She will do what it takes to flatter his ego, mirror his interests, whatever, with no regard to herself. She will be a doormat, and then wonder why guys aren't that interested in her and just use her for their pleasure, or walk all over her and go chasing after the girl who treats them like sh!t.

Now obviously you have no stake or interest in helping such women resolve their doormat status, only in their male counterparts. But nonetheless it is a common enough problem and the proferred solution is much the same as the one you keep insisting men must follow: don't be a doormat.

Now, it is also the case that not all women are doormats --and so the advice to them will differ. 

My views of you are informed solely by what you post here, and since you've said again and again and again that personality isn't important to yoj, and you go for all types as long as they are hot, etc. and so on, I've simply taken you at your word.


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## Faithful Wife

Some women are too clingy...

some are too aloof...

some are too guarded...

some are too flakey...

....all of these apply to some men, too.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> "It" wouldn't work on you? lol
> 
> You're immune to friendly guys? You require compliments from a guy trying to get your number? You know that I express these things because I have proved them to be reliable right?
> 
> What wouldn't work with you is handing you my analysis prior to hitting on you - so of course you can easily say "it wouldn't work on me" here. But in reality you perceive nothing other than a witty guy with a good sense of humor striking up conversation. The rules aren't presented to you during the approach, but they still apply.


You clearly don't think much of my attentiveness. That's rather insulting.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't really expect you to understand this because you could care less when people walk away, you are a self made man, and there is someone else to meet the next night...


I do understand what you're saying. This isn't what I disagree with. I have my own blend of insecurities and doubts, I think everyone does. When I was young, it really bothered me when someone didn't want to be with me anymore. I've asked myself the same questions - "what's wrong with me?"

I think our perspectives are very different because you got what you wanted early. Just by that fact, you probably haven't been rejected nearly as many times as I have. I think rejection is just a part of life experience. I got used to rejection, even putting myself in position where it was likely. You learn that what someone thinks or says about you has no bearing on your actual worth. What one person doesn't value, someone else does. Rejection loses its teeth. It becomes meaningless. Awareness comes that you can't and will never be everything to everyone. Peace arrives. I actually appreciate rejection for that lesson.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I realize it's far more than just physical boundaries...which is what you are disagreeing with...


That's not what I'm disagreeing with. I'm only disagreeing with the notion that they are this way because some guy rejecting them made them this way. I think most of them were this way to begin with. Count me among the desperate teenagers. I sought acceptance but feared rejection so much that I never even asked for a date in high school - I self-rejected... which is like thinking *everyone* rejects you. The girlfriends I had were just weird spontaneous happenings - I didn't ask them out, they didn't ask me out... we just kept hanging out, eventually became affectionate/touchy and poof... we're dating. Assuming rejection at any moment if I made the slightest stumble, I was trying to be perfect. I felt the need to constantly work at maintaining the relationship. *I* was clingy. I know exactly what the feeling/motivation that drives someone to be this way is. But regardless I was a downright smothering weenie and made the rejection I assumed would come if I wasn't pefect happen. This is a classic "nice guy" trait - trying to be perfect, because that's the only way you have value. This is why I chose to read NMMNG after being told of it here - excerpts of it resonated with my past. I just took another path out of it as I entered adulthood... but a lot of the same stuff.

Thus, my pickup adventures began with conquering my fear of rejection. Forcing myself to risk rejection at every opportunity and developing the ability to be rejected and not lose my confidence or feel it is a statement on my worth. I went out and got rejected A LOT, mindful of my thoughts, and eventually rejection fear just disappears like anything else you're afraid of that you repeatedly expose yourself to. Today, those rejections just make for funny stories.

The rejections didn't make me needy. I was needy and caused a lot of the rejections. It wasn't them, it was me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I think it should be obvious that there are people of every type who date.

Obviously there are some people who are damaged in their various ways.

But not all quirks of behavior come from being damaged.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> You can talk about swinging instead, if you like.


Ouch!

Smokin'


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> You clearly don't think much of my attentiveness. That's rather insulting.


No, I just don't think much of your telepathy. Do you really doubt that any of the women I've pursued would say anything different than you about how "it" wouldn't work on them?

I think I've told it before, but I once picked up a girl in a conversation about how she hates PUA tactics and they don't work... only to reveal all the pua tactics I used as we're driving to her place that night. She thought it was hilarious, devious, called me an a-hole and STILL slept with me.

You're not telepathic, and you don't read half as much as you think you do. Neither do we. If you're aware of "it", he's not very good at "it".


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'll trust my eyes before I trust yours.


Same applies to all of us with regards to your experiences.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Some women are too clingy...
> 
> some are too aloof...
> 
> some are too guarded...
> 
> some are too flakey...
> 
> ....all of these apply to some men, too.


You forgot desperate.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> You can talk about swinging instead, if you like.


Gotta admit. That was good. :smthumbup:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Same applies to all of us with regards to your experiences.


Well there's one way to settle this. TAM SOCIAL!! I'll buy the first round.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dvls...this is an honest question....do you really think that just because you haven't experienced something (meaning, in dating and the things we are discussing here) that is just doesn't exist or what?


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> No, I just don't think much of your telepathy. Do you really doubt that any of the women I've pursued would say anything different than you about how "it" wouldn't work on them?
> 
> I think I've told it before, but I once picked up a girl in a conversation about how she hates PUA tactics and they don't work... only to reveal all the pua tactics I used as we're driving to her place that night? She thought it was hilarious, called me an a-hole and STILL slept with me.
> 
> You're not telepathic, and you don't read half as much as you think you do. Neither do we. If you're aware of "it", he's not very good at "it".


*shrug* If you say so. Would he get me to laugh? Sure. Would he get me to have a conversation with him? Maybe. Like I said, I like meeting new people. Would he get my number? No freaking way. Especially if he came across the way you do sometimes. I may not be telepathic, but I'm not a mindless ditz, and I would never be attracted to anyone who implied that I am. Arrogance is the single most unattractive quality a man can have, and there is no other quality that could ever make up for arrogance of any kind.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Created2Write said:


> *shrug* If you say so. Would he get me to laugh? Sure. Would he get me to have a conversation with him? Maybe. Like I said, I like meeting new people. Would he get my number? No freaking way. Especially if he came across the way you do sometimes. I may not be telepathic, but I'm not a mindless ditz, and I would never be attracted to anyone who implied that I am. Arrogance is the single most unattractive quality a man can have, and there is no other quality that could ever make up for arrogance of any kind.


I know he definitely wouldn't have got you into bed that night


----------



## Created2Write

TiggyBlue said:


> I know he definitely wouldn't have got you into bed that night


Only one man ever has, and no other man on this planet could compare to him in any way.


----------



## Faithful Wife

WyshIknew said:


> You forgot desperate.


Yes...desperate...that is a hard one to define, I think.

Someone can act like they are desperate, but not actually be desperate.

And are they desperate for...

...a date? any date?

....sex? any sex, or with someone specific?

....to get married? to anyone, or do they need it to be someone they actually love?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls...this is an honest question....do you really think that just because you haven't experienced something (meaning, in dating and the things we are discussing here) that is just doesn't exist or what?


The contention isn't over whether it exists. My disagreement is on how common it is. If you're the one doing it, I have no doubts you'd think its common.

Surveys say otherwise, and any pair of eyeballs will back up the surveys in any singles location. Women rarely approach men, even if YOU do it all the time.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Just thinking here bc it struck me as odd once I realized it LOL

I don't think I've ever given a face to face compliment to a man I didn't know!
Even when hitting on a man in a social setting I was more subtle flirty and didn't compliment him til later in the interaction if it got that far.

ETA, I did ask my husband out first.But we've known each other since we were little kids so it wasn't that scary. I came on REALLY strong with him without even meaning it. Couldn't hold back  I initiated all of it.the date,the kissing,the sex...all me


----------



## Faithful Wife

Well Dvls, you are wrong, I guess if just "saying it" makes it true then I'll just "say it" too.

??

Again, you don't have women approach you and all the (you tell us they are nerdy) guys you hang out with don't have women approaching them? I'm not surprised. But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to other men by other women.

There are a lot of other things you have said you don't see and therefore you have decided they aren't true.

So again..."you are wrong".

Apparently, if our subjective experience is the only thing that matters to make something "true" then, that's all I need to say.

Or...you could actually read some of the books for women that I have suggested, or visit the forum I suggested...or talk to some other women and men....but you really just don't want to be "wrong" I guess, because you are totally unwilling to see anything other than your own experience.

Your loss. There is a lot you could learn. And you are wrong.


----------



## Created2Write

Perhaps it's just where I live, but it is insanely common for women to approach men. I've seen it happen in a freaking grocery store, at the coffee shop, I've seen it happen at bars _a lot_. I can only imagine how common it is in the singles scene here.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I don't know if my son has ever asked a girl out on a date. He in continually swarmed by women who are asking him out first.


----------



## Created2Write

Heck, _I_ approached DH three separate times before we were officially together. So I don't believe that it's as uncommon as Dvls says. Maybe where he lives it's just different, but even as a church goer I was taught that women are more than capable of pursuing a man, and that if we liked someone, we should say so to them.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Created2Write said:


> Perhaps it's just where I live, but it is insanely common for women to approach men. I've seen it happen in a freaking grocery store, at the coffee shop, I've seen it happen at bars _a lot_. I can only imagine how common it is in the singles scene here.


Like dvls said good game is pretty much undetectable


----------



## Faithful Wife

I think samyeager has told us he has been approached by women many times, and usually turned them down.

I know reformed hubby has said that, too.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't know if my son has ever asked a girl out on a date. He in continually swarmed by women who are asking him out first.


Son 2 was like this, I couldn't understand how he did it. He certainly never inherited my problem.

It seemed that he would bring a different girl back every weekend.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> I think samyeager has told us he has been approached by women many times, and usually turned them down.
> 
> I know reformed hubby has said that, too.


I was that guy in the club or bar that never bought his own drinks and left with three phone numbers without even opening my mouth. Drank the drinks, but never called them 

My STBW was the one who initiated and I am the first man she has ever made the first move on in her life.


----------



## Faithful Wife

According to Dvls, that never happened sam.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I think a lot more guys get hit on and don't realize it. I KNOW DH has been hit on and asked out bc I've witnessed it (before dating/marriage) and he is utterly clueless about it. "chicks never approach me." uh,yeah they do.All the f***ing time.


----------



## Faithful Wife

They still try to approach my hubby all the time. I'm used to it now. But he's always been used to it so he can see them coming a mile away.

Men still approach me too, but same deal...I can see them coming and I know whether they are just being friendly or were hoping to flirt.

The nice thing is though that we are so in love that after someone may have approached trying to hit on one of us, after they see us together they look like they are thinking "oh, how sweet". I think most people are charmed when they see twoo wuv!


----------



## Created2Write

To be fair, he didn't say it "never" happens. Just that it was uncommon. But it doesn't sound like it's uncommon to me.


----------



## Created2Write

My husband has been approached a couple of time since we've been married, too.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> They still try to approach my hubby all the time. I'm used to it now.


My husband is clueless to when this happens to him, he's pretty aloof in public.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> According to Dvls, that never happened sam.


While it has not been my own experience, I have seen a lot of what Dvls has experienced.

From what has been said lately here, it seems like both genders have experienced a lot of the same things, and this all appears more to just be a human thing depending on the individual. The same "rules" for both, do this, don't do that, wait this long, all that crap. The only times I have had any issues in dealing with the opposite sex have been when I started thinking too much about the "rules" and stopped just following my gut. My own natural instincts have served me very well.


----------



## WyshIknew

I never used to, but once I got past my late twenties, thirties it happened reasonably often. It used to puzzle me.


----------



## Faithful Wife

It is very common, but it just doesn't happen for some guys. That doesn't mean those guys are worthy or not, though. Same with women, there are some very worthy and beautiful women who never get approached or asked out. Sometimes it has to do with where you live. Sometimes it is just a string of coincidences. Even NOT getting approached can be due to a string of coincidences. 

As for where you live...my kid has a certain look that I am sure plays well here where we live but may not play so well in say, Texas.


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> They still try to approach my hubby all the time. I'm used to it now. But he's always been used to it so he can see them coming a mile away.
> 
> Men still approach me too, but same deal...I can see them coming and I know whether they are just being friendly or were hoping to flirt.
> 
> The nice thing is though that we are so in love that after someone may have approached trying to hit on one of us, after they see us together they look like they are thinking "oh, how sweet". I think most people are charmed when they see twoo wuv!


Got my haircut just yesterday, and the woman cutting my hair, much to the irritation of my STBW was blatantly coming on to me, right in front of her. My STBW was quite happy to watch me politely shut her down.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> While it has not been my own experience, I have seen a lot of what Dvls has experienced.
> 
> From what has been said lately here, it seems like both genders have experienced a lot of the same things, and this all appears more to just be a human thing depending on the individual. The same "rules" for both, do this, don't do that, wait this long, all that crap. The only times I have had any issues in dealing with the opposite sex have been when I started thinking too much about the "rules" and stopped just following my gut. My own natural instincts have served me very well.


Some people don't really have the type of gut feelings that guide them well. I'm glad you do.

Have you ever ignored your gut and been sorry for it? I'm not sure the history with your ex-w...did you ignore anything that time?


----------



## samyeagar

Faithful Wife said:


> Some people don't really have the type of gut feelings that guide them well. I'm glad you do.
> 
> *Have you ever ignored your gut and been sorry for it? I'm not sure the history with your ex-w...did you ignore anything that time*?


I ignored about a billion signs that I now know were signs she was NPD. Didn't know it at the time though.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I may not be telepathic, but I'm not a mindless ditz, and I would never be attracted to anyone who implied that I am. Arrogance is the single most unattractive quality a man can have, and there is no other quality that could ever make up for arrogance of any kind.


The problem is that you think that it only applies to mindless ditzs. If I gather you're a mindless ditz, I'd be moving on to someone else. You might actually have a great ability to read people, I don't know. What I do know is that everyone says it wouldn't work on them. "I can see that guy coming a mile away" ... ok... but apparently not when I'm two feet away.

I'm very sure of my position. I can be all PC and say things like, "well, your experience is your experience and my experience is my experience" - but to the point of argument, it would be factually incorrect. The point of argument is mutually exclusive - either its common that women approach men, or its uncommon. It cannot be both. 

If its arrogant to insist on logic, then I'm happily arrogant. I pointed out that surveys reliably report that a majority of women expect the man to approach them and even a poll on this forum supports my position. I know that if we counted who approaches who at any given singles location, that the male approaches are going to FAR exceed the female approaches. Its not even close.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Well my H doesn't get hit on...he's not an Alpha God...it's very rare...but we're almost always together & he doesn't go out much.....He is out of town right now... I asked him last week if he has seen any hot women over there.....he's in this small RR town with only 6 hundred people, half of them have no teeth & the stuff he was telling me was really making me laugh...

His only mention was a Cashier at Wendys, she had tattoos, maybe about our age....and she told him he had a pretty credit card... that's the excitement of it [email protected]# .... but the thing is ...his credit card is as boring as "blue nothingness" so what was that? Of course I joked with him she must have been hitting on him , fishing for a little social interaction , he was a new face in town.


----------



## Faithful Wife

If it is that rare, why are there books for women that tell them NOT to approach first and NOT to ask men on dates, EVER?

(I don't agree with that advice for all women, but the books are there).


----------



## Faithful Wife

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well my H doesn't get hit on...he's not an Alpha God...it's very rare...but we're almost always together & he doesn't go out much.....He is out of town right now... I asked him last week if he has seen any hot women over there.....he's in this small RR town with only 6 hundred people, half of them have no teeth & the stuff he was telling me was really making me laugh...
> 
> His only mention was a Cashier at Wendys, she had tattoos, maybe about our age....and she told him he had a pretty credit card... that's the excitement of it [email protected]# .... but the thing is ...his credit card is as boring as "blue nothingness" so what was that? Of course I joked with him she must have been hitting on him , fishing for a little social interaction , he was a new face in town.


Don't you live in a small, rural area?

A lot of it has to do with where you live.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Faithful Wife said:


> Don't you live in a small, rural area?
> 
> A lot of it has to do with where you live.


Yes...Rural...and where he went to get his welding training...even more so.... we are country, don't get out much, never go to bars, except our little strip club phase..and when we do go out, more than half the time we have a slew of kids with us.


----------



## WyshIknew

Faithful Wife said:


> Don't you live in a small, rural area?
> 
> A lot of it has to do with where you live.


I've noticed this when I've been away training, there are usually a few I suspect of either sex who are on the prowl.
The bigger the town/city the more that seem to be hunting.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The problem is that you think that it only applies to mindless ditzs.


I think the problem is that you assume all women are the same. Just because you land one, you think you can land them all. That reeks of overcompensation to me. False confidence. Kind of how Trying2figureitout has to believe all women are the same, to make his situation seem less pitiable, I think you have to believe that all women are the same to make you feel more prepared when approaching women. But it's still insecurity, even if some women are fooled by it. 

And I'm not saying that "it" wouldn't work with me on _any_ level. But the level where it matters most to the guy, the actual obtaining of the phone number, no way. I have my boundaries, and no amount of "game" in any man is going to get me to change those boundaries. 



> If I gather you're a mindless ditz, I'd be moving on to someone else. You might actually have a great ability to read people, I don't know. What I do know is that everyone says it wouldn't work on them. "I can see that guy coming a mile away" ... ok... but apparently not when I'm two feet away.


Like I said, I'd have a conversation with the guy if he was friendly. I _wouldn't_ give him my phone number. And if, during the course of the conversation, I felt that he thought poorly of me in any way, the conversation would be over. 



> I'm very sure of my position. I can be all PC and say things like, "well, your experience is your experience and my experience is my experience" - but to the point of argument, it would be factually incorrect. The point of argument is mutually exclusive - either its common that women approach men, or its uncommon. It cannot be both.


And I'm sure of mine. I've seen too many instances in casual settings where women approached men to believe that it is _un_common in general. Now, unlike you, I can accept _both_ situations: I think it's common for women to approach men, and I think it's just as common for men to approach women. I don't think it has to be one or the other. A woman could be approached by a man one night, and the following night she could be the one to approach a different guy. There's no "one size fits all" when it comes to people mingling with each other.



> If its arrogant to insist on logic, then I'm happily arrogant. I pointed out that surveys reliably report that a majority of women expect the man to approach them and even a poll on this forum supports my position. I know that if we counted who approaches who at any given singles location, that the male approaches are going to FAR exceed the female approaches. Its not even close.


Your viewpoint isn't the only logical one, Dvls. To insist that it is reeks of insecurity.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Here's ONE of the many books that advise women to NEVER ask a man out...why would this book be written if women do not approach men to begin with?

http://therulesbook.com/

A quote from the book:

We began to notice that the women who played hard to get, either deliberately or by accident, were the ones who got the guys, *while the women who asked guys out or were too available were the ones who got dumped.* We put two and two together, and wrote and wrote, and that’s how The Rules were born! We had no idea The Rules would become a bestseller… we just wanted to help women stop making mistakes and get the men of their dreams—and that’s what we still do now, 20 years later! Today, Ellen is married with two children and lives in New York, and Sherrie is married with a teenage daughter and lives in New Jersey. We did The Rules, wrote The Rules, and have helped millions of women do The Rules, too. Now, we want to help you!

(end quote)

A lot of women swear by this book, but many hate it. I think it is good for certain woman and not others.

Then, because women have been told NOT to approach or ask out, there's this book suggesting to DO IT, go up and approach him! For sex, for a date, for whatever you want!

The New Rules of Attraction: How to Get Him, Keep Him, and Make Him Beg for More: Arden Leigh: 9781402266522: Amazon.com: Books

This book was ok, I read it but...meh, there is a lot of problems with it. Anyway, the author talks about how she was sick of being told by dating advice authors that a woman should not approach or ask out first, so she bucks those "rules" and finds success. She is also a professional dominatrix and poly though so...she gives plenty of advice on casual sex as well as "regular dating"...though she is also in New York and that dating market is pretty specific.

Quote from the description: 

What would you rather do-have a strategy to win the guy you want, or sit at the bar all night and wait for him to come to you? Arden Leigh schools women in the art of getting their desires, offering you effective tips for attracting him, mesmerizing him, and convincing him that what he really wants is you, including:

•Why being sexy shouldn't be your only weapon

•Why waiting for him to approach you is one of the worst things you can do

•Why you should always do more at the party than have fun

•How Facebook, Twitter, and texting can help you-or hurt you.


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Don't you live in a small, rural area?
> 
> A lot of it has to do with where you live.


Which is precisely why there can't be a "one size fits all" truth about either gender in social situations. I think it can even come down to who you're out with, too. I know I have friends that, if I went out with them, I'd be totally comfortable drinking and getting a little rowdy. And there are others that I wouldn't even order a soda with them around.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I think our perspectives are very different because you got what you wanted early. Just by that fact, you probably haven't been rejected nearly as many times as I have. I think rejection is just a part of life experience. I got used to rejection, even putting myself in position where it was likely.* You learn that what someone thinks or says about you has no bearing on your actual worth. What one person doesn't value, someone else does. *Rejection loses its teeth. It becomes meaningless. *Awareness comes that you can't and will never be everything to everyone. Peace arrives. I actually appreciate rejection for that lesson.*


 I agree with all of this... of course..it's kinda the same message you will get in sitting in the church pew...we all have value..and worth.... find your niche.. don't allow others to get you down...when all fails, God loves you. 



> That's not what I'm disagreeing with. I'm only disagreeing with the notion that they are this way because some guy rejecting them made them this way. I think most of them were this way to begin with.


 Ok, then something in their upbringing...

What do you feel contributed to your being the way you were...also things from your childhood.. I assume.. unless you will say this is all related to an obsessive temperament trait to perfection... Melanacholy's tend to do this..



> Count me among the desperate teenagers. I sought acceptance but feared rejection so much that I never even asked for a date in high school - I self-rejected... which is like thinking *everyone* rejects you. The girlfriends I had were just weird spontaneous happenings - I didn't ask them out, they didn't ask me out... we just kept hanging out, eventually became affectionate/touchy and poof... we're dating. Assuming rejection at any moment if I made the slightest stumble, I was trying to be perfect. I felt the need to constantly work at maintaining the relationship. **I* was clingy. I know exactly what the feeling/motivation that drives someone to be this way is. But regardless I was a downright smothering weenie and made the rejection I assumed would come if I wasn't pefect happen. This is a classic "nice guy" trait - trying to be perfect, because that's the only way you have value.* This is why I chose to read NMMNG after being told of it here - excerpts of it resonated with my past. I just took another path out of it as I entered adulthood... but a lot of the same stuff.


It seems you understand the Clingy person more than anyone then.. I think often times we despise in someone else what we secretly struggle with -within our selves. And we admire in others what we wish for ourselves.. I admire my husband's patience... I think he admires my assertiveness... and we've rubbed off on each other over the years...I hope..but ultimately we are geared a certain way prominently so...



> Thus, my pickup adventures began with conquering my fear of rejection. Forcing myself to risk rejection at every opportunity and developing the ability to be rejected and not lose my confidence or feel it is a statement on my worth. I went out and got rejected A LOT, mindful of my thoughts, and eventually rejection fear just disappears like anything else you're afraid of that you repeatedly expose yourself to. Today, those rejections just make for funny stories.
> 
> The rejections didn't make me needy. I was needy and caused a lot of the rejections. It wasn't them, it was me.


this book covers all this sort of thing.. never read it but my best friend gave it to me ages ago...


----------



## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's ONE of the many books that advise women to NEVER ask a man out...why would this book be written if women do not approach men to begin with?
> 
> The Rules | The Rules is a way of dating that really works!
> 
> A quote from the book:
> 
> We began to notice that the women who played hard to get, either deliberately or by accident, were the ones who got the guys, *while the women who asked guys out or were too available were the ones who got dumped.* We put two and two together, and wrote and wrote, and that’s how The Rules were born! We had no idea The Rules would become a bestseller… we just wanted to help women stop making mistakes and get the men of their dreams—and that’s what we still do now, 20 years later! Today, Ellen is married with two children and lives in New York, and Sherrie is married with a teenage daughter and lives in New Jersey. We did The Rules, wrote The Rules, and have helped millions of women do The Rules, too. Now, we want to help you!
> 
> (end quote)
> 
> A lot of women swear by this book, but many hate it. I think it is good for certain woman and not others.
> 
> Then, because women have been told NOT to approach or ask out, there's this book suggesting to DO IT, go up and approach him! For sex, for a date, for whatever you want!
> 
> The New Rules of Attraction: How to Get Him, Keep Him, and Make Him Beg for More: Arden Leigh: 9781402266522: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> This book was ok, I read it but...meh, there is a lot of problems with it. Anyway, the author talks about how she was sick of being told by dating advice authors that a woman should not approach or ask out first, so she bucks those "rules" and finds success. She is also a professional dominatrix and poly though so...she gives plenty of advice on casual sex as well as "regular dating"...though she is also in New York and that dating market is pretty specific.
> 
> Quote from the description:
> 
> What would you rather do-have a strategy to win the guy you want, or sit at the bar all night and wait for him to come to you? Arden Leigh schools women in the art of getting their desires, offering you effective tips for attracting him, mesmerizing him, and convincing him that what he really wants is you, including:
> 
> •Why being sexy shouldn't be your only weapon
> 
> •Why waiting for him to approach you is one of the worst things you can do
> 
> •Why you should always do more at the party than have fun
> 
> •How Facebook, Twitter, and texting can help you-or hurt you.


There were two guys I dated where _I_ was the initiator. The first guy, I approached him because he would flirt and flirt and flirt and flirt, but never actually make any sort of move. So, I asked him out. He was my second bf. The other was DH. I approached him because I liked a lot, more than any other guy I'd known before, and I didn't want to just wait for him to approach me. I had no guarantee that he would, so I did it. I remember asking myself before I did, "What if he's turned off by me taking the lead?" But then I thought, "Then he's definitely not right for me. I'm not going to be anyone other than who I am, and he'll other take me or leave me." 

Turns out, he loved that I initiated. He didn't want my companionship to be obligatory.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I encourage women like you to go ahead and make the approach. It has to do with your baseline personality whether it can work or not. For a long time, the common advice was to all women, NEVER approach, never ask out first, never call first, etc.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> I encourage women like you to go ahead and make the approach. It has to do with your baseline personality whether it can work or not. For a long time, the common advice was to all women, NEVER approach, never ask out first, never call first, etc.


I totally agree. I have friends who are very traditional, "The guy should always make the first move", and for them, that works.


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## jld

I really like that you were just yourself with him, Created. What a great way to begin a relationship.


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## DvlsAdvc8

FW-

-Your first misstep is creating a straw man of my position. No where have I said no women approach men. I said its uncommon. The vast majority of approaches are by men. But you're really flogging that straw man so don't let me interrupt... get it girl!

-You haven't addressed that my position does not hinge on whether my friends and I are commonly approached by women.

-My friends are not nerdy... where do you get that? My work circle definitely is. A few of my friends are. Nowadays, the word "nerd" has taken on the socially awkward connotation and the word "geek" has taken on the enthusiasm for intellectual things meaning. So don't think I'm running from terms. I'm a proud geek and I love geeks. Most of my friends though, especially the ones I go clubbing with, are neither geeks nor nerds. Calling my boxing friends, my party friends, my motorcycling friends or even my softball team nerdy is laughable. My nerdy friends barely ever go out. Regardless, my position does not hinge on all these friends who don't get approached when we're out.

-A forum of women who approach men is not evidence that women approaching men is common, nor is a book telling women how to approach men. This is both a form of confirmation bias and sampling bias.

-I am not speaking solely from experience, I also mentioned that surveys of women show that a super majority of women expect the man to approach. I posted one the last time we argued over this. There was also a poll here on it that reflected the survey results. Most women do not approach men. Most have an expectation that approaching is the man's job. If most women don't approach, women approaching men is NOT common - unless that minority of women who approach are really really busy.


Its a shame we're not local. This would make a great bet and I enjoy winning bets. We could poll it again... I can't remember whether that was the poll I posted that you had deleted because you were butthurt. If the majority of women say they are most often the approacher, I'll totally concede.


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## SimplyAmorous

Yep I'm the traditional type all the way, I feel very strongly about it too...

But you have to understand something.. I was looking for Romantic long lasting love and marriage.....if the Guy didn't have the balls to come up to me and talk, ask me out.. ya know what...I didn't catch his fancy.. that to me is the bottom line...
I will agree with Devil, an overwhelming attraction is what puts a fire under a man to pursue...

Turn it around... if I was going to be the aggressor in THIS society, I would only be deemed a bonafide DI** tease.. cause I wouldn't be putting out...and most guys would be expecting..

Different Rule books for what a girls wants.. I feel makes sense...

I want pursued... the only thing I would offer is friendliness ...willing to engage in a conversation... even though I can be very aggressive and carry a conversation with anyone.....I simply NEED the guys interest & personally I want to KNOW I caught his attention ...originally , that means something to me.


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## Faithful Wife

It isn't uncommon Dvls, period. It may not be the majority but it is not uncommon and happens enough to be called COMMON.

And even if we were local I'd never go out anywhere with you. Not my idea of a fun night.


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## Created2Write

Faithful Wife said:


> It isn't uncommon Dvls, period. It may not be the majority but it is not uncommon and happens enough to be called COMMON.


Exactly. No one has said that women approach men _more_ than men approach women. Just that it _isn't_ uncommon. Both can be true at the same time. 



> And even if we were local I'd never go out anywhere with you. Not my idea of a fun night.


Ditto!!


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## TiggyBlue

Created2Write said:


> Exactly. No one has said that women approach men _more_ than men approach women. Just that it _isn't_ uncommon.


:iagree:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> If it is that rare, why are there books for women that tell them NOT to approach first and NOT to ask men on dates, EVER?
> 
> (I don't agree with that advice for all women, but the books are there).


Guys who have terrible slouches are also pretty rare, but pickup books tell men its more attractive to stand up straight.

That your books tell women not to approach men probably based on conforming to social norms (don't weird him out) and the norm is that the male approaches. You bat your eyelashes, flip your hair, squeak and wear no clothes... or something.


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## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yep I'm the traditional type all the way, I feel very strongly about it too...
> 
> But you have to understand something.. I was looking for Romantic long lasting love and marriage.....if the Guy didn't have the balls to come up to me and talk, ask me out.. ya know what...I didn't catch his fancy.. that to me is the bottom line...
> I will agree with Devil, an overwhelming attraction is what puts a fire under a man to pursue...
> 
> Turn it around... if I was going to be the aggressor in THIS society, I would only be deemed a bonafide DI** tease.. cause I wouldn't be putting out...and most guys would be expecting..
> 
> Different Rule books for what a girls wants.. I feel makes sense...
> 
> I want pursued... the only thing I would offer is friendliness ...willing to engage in a conversation... even though I can be very aggressive and carry a conversation with anyone.....I simply NEED the guys interest & personally I want to KNOW I caught his attention ...originally , that means something to me.


I was looking for the same thing as you, SA. I wasn't picking anyone up, I was looking for long-term commitment, I knew that I liked the two guys enough to pursue them if they weren't going to pursue me. It wasn't that DH didn't have the balls to pursue me. I'm sure if I had waited, he'd have gotten there eventually. But I was tired of going through unsuccessful relationships, I was tired of being very attracted to a guy and waiting for months for him to ask me out. So, I took matters into my own hands. 

It actually made DH more interested in me, because it showed him that I genuinely wanted to be around him, and I wasn't just hanging out with him to be polite. For us, it was awesome.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> It isn't uncommon Dvls, period. It may not be the majority but it is not uncommon and happens enough to be called COMMON.
> 
> And even if we were local I'd never go out anywhere with you. Not my idea of a fun night.


You're no basket of sunshine yourself. You probably wouldn't take the bet anyway.

We're now going to argue about how frequent something needs to be in order to be considered common. At least we're down to calling it a minority. That's something I'll agree with.

On any given weekend outing, seeing hundreds of single people in clubs and bars with approximately even ratio male to female (except bars, slightly tilt toward men in most), I see maybe 2 women who walk up to a guy all night. Now granted, I'm not looking for it... but I'm not looking for the male approaches either, and I see dozens.

Is this what you consider women commonly approaching men? If so, I'm out. Your common isn't common imo.


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## Faithful Wife

Feel free to get out, Dvls. Like I'm stopping you?


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## Created2Write

Out of the five guys I dated, I approached two. So, a little less than half. If out of every five men who approach a woman, two of those women approach a guy, I'd call that common.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Feel free to get out, Dvls. Like I'm stopping you?


Like you could. Its a public forum.

Its simply pointless to argue over the meaning the word common. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say women approaching men is less than 10% of all approaches, and the percentage of women who are even willing to do it is almost as low... sub 20%.


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## Faithful Wife

Yes, it is pointless. You sounded like you were "threatening me" with "I'm out" and I merely said "feel free". You're the one who brought up wanting out of this silly, illogical pretend debate. No one is stopping you.


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## Created2Write

Dvls, if you're going to act like you know all there is to know about women, expect for people to respond in kind. I don't know if you intend to be as insulting as you are, but it gets very old very quick.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, it is pointless. You sounded like you were "threatening me" with "I'm out" and I merely said "feel free". You're the one who brought up wanting out of this silly, illogical pretend debate. No one is stopping you.


lol no... it was "Im out" as in, there's no arguing what you consider common.

C2W, please point out where I've insulted someone. I don't act like I know all there is to know about women. I act like I know something when I think I know something. I'm the first to say when I'm not sure or when something is based on intuition. I act like I know women aren't approaching men all over the place, because I know they're not.


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## In The Dark

You're both right. How's that for a compliment?

Men hit on women more often but it is not uncommon for a woman to hit on a man...unless they are both creeps, which ONLY happens if they are both unattractive to one another...sometimes

Back on topic, I think giving compliments is okay but you have to be conscious of how you do it. Most "creeps" are unaware of social standards and usually cross boundaries they don't even realize they cross(except in SB's case). I save the majority of my compliments for my wife but if a coworker or friends looks nice, I'll let them know. A lot is in the delivery. Non-verbal communication is a big factor. If I'm leering at them, I would get one reaction. If I give a plutonic vibe out, I'll get another.


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## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> C2W, please point out where I've insulted someone. I don't act like I know all there is to know about women. I act like I know something when I think I know something. I'm the first to say when I'm not sure or when something is based on intuition. *I act like I know women aren't approaching men all over the place, because I know they're not.*


Cause you're all-knowing and omnipresent. I forgot about that.  Seriously, you *don't* and *can't* know what women do outside of your social circle. That is exactly the overcompensation that I'm taking about. And that is exactly why I say that you think all women are the same. Because anytime it's suggested that women act in a way that is contrary to your experience, it is entirely disregarded. Women _have_ to be the same with you. They can't be different in any ways other than personality types and physical appearance. 

Your insults are, usually, implications. Difficult to directly point out, but there nonetheless. It makes talking with you impossible. Which is a shame, because you have some great qualities. Too bad your arrogance gets in the way so often.


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## samyeagar

Not to confuse things even more, but there is a difference between a woman approaching a man, coming onto him, and taking the next step and actually asking him out on a date. In my own personal experiences, I have had far more women make the initial approach, flirt, buy me drinks, give me their number unsolicited, but [email protected] asking me out on a date? Not so much...they broke the ice, made their interst veyr obvious, but usually put ghe ball in my court to actually escalate it. The two biggest exceptions being the girl I dated for two yours before she died...we were friends, but not friend zoned, and she escalated it in a bigway simplytelling me she wanted to bang my brains out, and the other being my STBW, who incidently also wanted to bang my brains out
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Like you could. Its a public forum.
> 
> Its simply pointless to argue over the meaning the word common. If I had to put a number on it, I'd say women approaching men is less than 10% of all approaches, and the percentage of women who are even willing to do it is almost as low... sub 20%.


I think the problem is that you equate what you have experienced as common across a scope that does not apply. Since it is common in your experience, it just is common period, without considering for variance based on your own approach/personality/vibe, geography, socioeconomic background.... You lump it all into a categorization of what women are that is just roundly wrong outside of the scope of your experience.


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## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> I was looking for the same thing as you, SA. I wasn't picking anyone up, I was looking for long-term commitment, I knew that I liked the two guys enough to pursue them if they weren't going to pursue me. It wasn't that DH didn't have the balls to pursue me. I'm sure if I had waited, he'd have gotten there eventually. But I was tired of going through unsuccessful relationships, I was tired of being very attracted to a guy and waiting for months for him to ask me out. So, I took matters into my own hands.
> 
> It actually made DH more interested in me, because it showed him that I genuinely wanted to be around him, and I wasn't just hanging out with him to be polite. For us, it was awesome.


I'm sorry I shouldn't have used the word "balls" like that...... I mean if anything I am the one who likes introverted type men -who often don't put themselves out there ENOUGH....

So when I said this, I was really meaning..*even the shy guys need to put themselves out there*...my best friends brother liked me for yrs (everyone knew) ..he grew on me some as we grew older...I would enjoy hanging with him as much as her when I was over there...yet he couldn't go there with me...too awkward I guess...there was one night in particular where I swear he wanted too...but ultimately - He let his shyness win...then it was too late.. I probably would have given him a chance too. 

I've read so many of your posts but didn't realize you took initiative with your husband...hey it all worked out...you went in after the ones YOU SPECIFICALLY WANTED.... that's BOLD !! 

I guess I had many crushes growing up....mostly based on looks alone..but I refused to ever let any of them know..I only shared this with my best friend ..and I'd take her face off if she told..... I would admire from a far and do absolutely nothing.. but none of this was a big deal to me.

I felt in my







from a young age...the right one would come for me.... I even prayed about it.. He was on the shy side for sure (that song, "He's so Shy"--that's all my husband!....he even gave up on girls... which makes it all the more sweeter he took that initiative (within a week of our meeting)....expecting to get rejected no less.. . I love that !...I laughed when he told me this, I had no idea he had all this turmoil going on... then squeezed him tight..









It was my friendliness that allowed him to take that chance... we both have a precious beginning story... 

The 2 of you knowing each other from childhood is awesome !


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## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm sorry I shouldn't have used the word "balls" like that...... I mean if anything I am the one who likes introverted type men -who often don't put themselves out there ENOUGH....


Oh no, I wasn't offended. Just pointing out a different perspective. 



> So when I said this, I was really meaning..*even the shy guys need to put themselves out there*...my best friends brother liked me for yrs (everyone knew) ..he grew on me some as we grew older...I would enjoy hanging with him as much as her when I was over there...yet he couldn't go there with me...too awkward I guess...there was one night in particular where I swear he wanted too...but ultimately - He let his shyness win...then it was too late.. I probably would have given him a chance too.


See, I think the shy guys sometimes assume that we don't want them, so instead of just being confident, they overcompensate and become jerks. I've seen that happen with shy guys before, and it made someone I would've been very interested in before become someone I wouldn't have given the time of day for anything. It's sad. 



> I've read so many of your posts but didn't realize you took initiative with your husband...hey it all worked out...you went in after the ones YOU SPECIFICALLY WANTED.... that's BOLD !!


See, both times I was *petrified*. I knew that there was a very great chance that neither of them would be attracted to a woman with that kind of boldness. Up until the two of them, I didn't think men _wanted_ women who approached them...and took the lead. I thought I'd be pushy. But I *had* to try. I couldn't keep quiet about how I felt, and I figured if my boldness turned them off, then I was better off without them. I've never believed in changing who I am just for acceptance. 



> I guess I had many crushes growing up....mostly based on looks alone..but I refused to ever let any of them know..I only shared this with my best friend ..and I'd take her face off if she told..... I would admire from a far and do absolutely nothing.. but none of this was a big deal to me.


My friend told her brother I had a crush on him and teased him relentlessly. So, he never, ever, spoke to me. 



> I felt in my
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> from a young age...the right one would come for me.... I even prayed about it.. He was on the shy side for sure (that song, "He's so Shy"--that's all my husband!....he even gave up on girls... which makes it all the more sweeter he took that initiative (within a week of our meeting)....expecting to get rejected no less.. . I love that !...I laughed when he told me this, I had no idea he had all this turmoil going on... then squeezed him tight..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was my friendliness that allowed him to take that chance... we both have a precious beginning story...
> 
> The 2 of you knowing each other from childhood is awesome !


I love your story, SA. It resembles mine is many ways, and yet is opposite in others.  My husband had also given up on women. It's why he was so excited when I showed my interest so strongly, and instead of pushing him away, drew him in.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I think the problem is that you assume all women are the same. Just because you land one, you think you can land them all. That reeks of overcompensation to me. False confidence. Kind of how Trying2figureitout has to believe all women are the same, to make his situation seem less pitiable, I think you have to believe that all women are the same to make you feel more prepared when approaching women. But it's still insecurity, even if some women are fooled by it.


I don't even remotely assume women are all the same. I do however accept certain fundamental principles that apply to MOST women. Peculiarities of female psychology - like being suspicious of a man who compliments on his approach. You said you were cool with compliments regardless and that's fine. However, most agree the compliment raises their defenses and doesn't feel genuine - and they gave a host of reasons that conformed exactly with what I suggested in the other thread by intuition. She's creeped out. She thinks he's trying to get something. Its doesn't feel genuine. Fundamentally: security.

Other bits apply to certain types of women and certain situations.

I have plenty of insecurities, but getting attractive women isn't one of them. Still, I have no illusion that I can get everyone. I don't want them all. Besides, some of them don't like bald men. I do think my odds are good with most women based on experience. You're in the ballpark though... I used to have horrible insecurity and fear of rejection. Everything I've learned is how I got over both. Get out, try everything, note the results, adjust... rinse and repeat. Talk to everyone. Join toastmasters. An all out assault on social anxiety. Is this false confidence? pssh... if it is I don't care. I'm confident that I'm usually successful, and I'm confident she's not questioning my confidence in the morning. For me, confidence comes from knowing. Some other schmuck can have the ignorant kind.



Created2Write said:


> And I'm not saying that "it" wouldn't work with me on _any_ level. But the level where it matters most to the guy, the actual obtaining of the phone number, no way. I have my boundaries, and no amount of "game" in any man is going to get me to change those boundaries.


If you meant it that way from the perspective of a married woman, then I've misunderstood you. Its not like I have magical hypnotic words. Nothing anyone can say will make you cross a boundary you don't want to cross. TBH, I have zero experience trying to pick up married women anyway.



Created2Write said:


> Like I said, I'd have a conversation with the guy if he was friendly. I _wouldn't_ give him my phone number. And if, during the course of the conversation, I felt that he thought poorly of me in any way, the conversation would be over.


Is playful teasing thinking poorly of you? Because that's about the only thing I do that could be taken as "thinking poorly". If I actually think poorly of her, I'm going to go after someone else.

You'd never give your number to a friendly guy you're attracted to that you just had a good conversations with? Do you mean that as a married woman? Because if you were married, I wouldn't be asking for your number. I know there are a lot of women who will never give out their number to a guy they don't know... and several who have given their number to me and said "I never give out my number, I'm so glad you didn't turn out to be a weirdo." Regardless, if I don't get a number I don't get a number... I still enjoy the exchange. It happened all the time when I was younger. Today, I usually know whether she's going to give me her number before I ask.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I don't even remotely assume women are all the same. I do however accept certain fundamental principles that apply to MOST women. Peculiarities of female psychology - like being suspicious of a man who compliments on his approach. You said you were cool with compliments regardless and that's fine. However, most agree the compliment raises their defenses and doesn't feel genuine - and they gave a host of reasons that conformed exactly with what I suggested in the other thread by intuition. She's creeped out. She thinks he's trying to get something. Its doesn't feel genuine. Fundamentally: security.
> 
> Other bits apply to certain types of women and certain situations.


I maintain that you don't and can't know whether certain things actually do apply to most women or not. You can't believe that they do, but you can't _know_ that they do. This could be semantics, but I still think it needs to be said. 



> I have plenty of insecurities, but getting attractive women isn't one of them. Still, I have no illusion that I can get everyone. I don't want them all. Besides, some of them don't like bald men. *I do think my odds are good with most women based on experience.*


Precisely my point, and this absolutely sounds like insecurity to me. Deep rooted insecurity. 



> You're in the ballpark though... I used to have horrible insecurity and fear of rejection. Everything I've learned is how I got over both. Get out, try everything, note the results, adjust... rinse and repeat. Talk to everyone. Join toastmasters. An all out assault on social anxiety. Is this false confidence? pssh... if it is I don't care. I'm confident that I'm usually successful, and I'm confident she's not questioning my confidence in the morning. For me, confidence comes from knowing. Some other schmuck can have the ignorant kind.


This all sounds fake. Do whatever you can to _seem_ as sincerely confident as possible, when deep down you're just as insecure as before the toastmaters and talking to everyone. And I think you _do_ care about whether or not it's real. Otherwise you wouldn't have gone to all the trouble in the first place. And why not? Fake confidence is enough to seduce a woman, why need the real thing?



> If you meant it that way from the perspective of a married woman, then I've misunderstood you. Its not like I have magical hypnotic words. Nothing anyone can say will make you cross a boundary you don't want to cross. TBH, I have zero experience trying to pick up married women anyway.


I didn't mean it as a married woman.



> Is playful teasing thinking poorly of you? Because that's about the only thing I do that could be taken as "thinking poorly". If I actually think poorly of her, I'm going to go after someone else.


I love playful teasing. One of my exes playfully teased me all of the time before we were together, and I didn't take it to mean that he thought poorly of me. He even joked about my lack of running ability in the DEP program, something I was sensitive about, and I never felt insulted. But the way you talk about women on here often leaves me shaking my head and feeling sorry for you. I can never tell if it's just outright bitterness, or defensiveness that causes you to say what you do, but I don't think you have a very good view of women in general. 



> You'd never give your number to a friendly guy you're attracted to that you just had a good conversations with? Do you mean that as a married woman? Because if you were married, I wouldn't be asking for your number. I know there are a lot of women who will never give out their number to a guy they don't know... and several who have given their number to me and said "I never give out my number, I'm so glad you didn't turn out to be a weirdo." Regardless, if I don't get a number I don't get a number... I still enjoy the exchange. It happened all the time when I was younger. Today, I usually know whether she's going to give me her number before I ask.


I don't mean it as a married woman, I mean it hypothetically if I were single.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Seriously, you *don't* and *can't* know what women do outside of your social circle.


Social circleS. What I know is reliable in Baltimore, Atlanta, DC, Phoenix, Denver... everywhere I've ever gone looking for women, across all the different kinds of people I associate with. For all these dramatic different people... there are still principles and attributes shared by the vast majority. I really don't know what you don't get about that? KNOWING that the vast majority of women think its the man's job to approach INFORMS my behavior to not sit back and hope some chick in the extreme minority decides to approach me. It says I better know how to approach women. KNOWING that most women receive a compliment during an approach negatively INFORMS my behavior of not complimenting.



Created2Write said:


> That is exactly the overcompensation that I'm taking about. And that is exactly why I say that you think all women are the same. Because anytime it's suggested that women act in a way that is contrary to your experience, it is entirely disregarded.


It has nothing to do with any kind of compensating... compensating for what? Its disregarded because its USELESS. Again, I don't care about exceptions. I'm after what usually applies, not what can potentially exist. For all I know some women want to have sex with horses... I don't care. I know most women do not approach. It is 100% factually accurate and informative. I have never said no woman approaches. So what about them? The only useful information is the information that applies to MOST women... because when you're interested in a random person, expecting her to be an exception is a losing bet.



Created2Write said:


> Women _have_ to be the same with you. They can't be different in any ways other than personality types and physical appearance.


There are plenty of differences. There are plenty of commonalities. Its the commonalities I'm interested in knowing, because they have predictive value. Example, if I pick any woman in a place, I can predict that she doesn't want to approach men, and I'd be right a lot more often than I'm wrong.

I know that acting one way will net me positive influence with most women, even while it completely fails for a minority. I don't care about the minority.



Created2Write said:


> Your insults are, usually, implications. Difficult to directly point out, but there nonetheless. It makes talking with you impossible. Which is a shame, because you have some great qualities. Too bad your arrogance gets in the way so often.


If you're insulted, they were your implications not mine. I'm often sharp, but I have meant no insult.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> See, I think the shy guys sometimes assume that we don't want them, so instead of just being confident, they overcompensate and become jerks. I've seen that happen with shy guys before, and it made someone I would've been very interested in before become someone I wouldn't have given the time of day for anything. It's sad.


 Well I crushed him when I liked one of his good friends early on...one of my 1st puppy love BF's.... His Mom even told me how much he liked me.. so it was a bad start....he never became a Jerk... but he did start doing weed, smoking...and I didn't like this.. he grew long hair.. that's when I took an interest.. we loved the same music.. he was so funny... to this day... he never married.. 



> See, both times I was *petrified*. I knew that there was a very great chance that neither of them would be attracted to a woman with that kind of boldness. Up until the two of them, I didn't think men _wanted_ women who approached them...and took the lead. I thought I'd be pushy. But I *had* to try. I couldn't keep quiet about how I felt, and I figured if my boldness turned them off, then I was better off without them. I've never believed in changing who I am just for acceptance.


 Curious...how did you tell them.. do you remember these petrified starters & their reactions ... how old were you ? Bold Missy!



> My friend told her brother I had a crush on him and teased him relentlessly. So, he never, ever, spoke to me.


 If this happened to me as a teen, I'd want to crawl under a rock and die ...I just wouldn't like that at all !



> I love your story, SA. It resembles mine is many ways, and yet is opposite in others.  My husband had also given up on women. It's why he was so excited when I showed my interest so strongly, and instead of pushing him away, drew him in.


Your H is very good looking... confident looking type, hard to imagine he gave up on girls!..... but I know what you mean -it wasn't anything "meaningful"..and this is something you stepped in and offered .....Here's You *>>*


----------



## soccermom2three

Wow, who knew that the though process behind giving a compliment could seem so exhausting!

Is she too pretty? Not pretty enough? Will she think I'm a creep? I'm I going for her number? blah, blah, blah. Like I said, exhausting.

Just pay the compliment and be happy with the fact that you made someone's day. Sheesh.


----------



## samyeagar

soccermom2three said:


> Wow, who knew that the though process behind giving a compliment could seem so exhausting!
> 
> Is she too pretty? Not pretty enough? Will she think I'm a creep? I'm I going for her number? blah, blah, blah. Like I said, exhausting.
> 
> Just pay the compliment and be happy with the fact that you made someone's day. Sheesh.


Of course you only make their day if you don't creep them out...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## over20

samyeagar said:


> Of course you only make their day if you don't creep them out...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Social circleS. What I know is reliable in Baltimore, Atlanta, DC, Phoenix, Denver... everywhere I've ever gone looking for women, across all the different kinds of people I associate with. For all these dramatic different people... there are still principles and attributes shared by the vast majority. *I really don't know what you don't get about that?*


Firstly, insult. (Since you wanted me to point it out.) Because I "get" that you've had these experiences with various women across various states. I'm really not an idiot, though you like to paint me that way. What I'm saying is that these "principles" of yours are not, and will not, always be so for every social circle, for every situation, for every woman. I'm not denying that these principles are true for you. But your experiences do not define the experiences of everyone. 

Do men approach women more often than women approach men? I'd say yes. But that doesn't mean it's a rarity for women to approach men? No. 



> KNOWING that the vast majority of women think its the man's job to approach INFORMS my behavior to not sit back and hope some chick in the extreme minority decides to approach me.


You can't know that about "most" women. Period. It is impossible for you to absolutely know it for a fact. 



> It has nothing to do with any kind of compensating... compensating for what?


For your lack of real confidence. 



> Its disregarded because its USELESS. Again, I don't care about exceptions. I'm after what usually applies, not what can potentially exist. For all I know some women want to have sex with horses... I don't care. I know most women do not approach. It is 100% factually accurate and informative. I have never said no woman approaches. So what about them? The only useful information is the information that applies to MOST women... because when you're interested in a random person, expecting her to be an exception is a losing bet.


Your experience can lead you to believe something about most women, but it doesn't make that belief a fact. I would agree that men, usually, approach women more often than vice versa, but I don't think that it's so rare as to say that "most" women don't approach men. 



> There are plenty of differences. There are plenty of commonalities. Its the commonalities I'm interested in knowing, because they have predictive value.


This is a nice way of saying that you want all/most women to be the same so that you are prepared to accomplish your goal. Which was exactly my point. Thank you for confirming it. 



> Example, if I pick any woman in a place, I can predict that she doesn't want to approach men, and I'd be right probably more often than I'm wrong.


I fixed it for you.



> I know that acting one way will net me positive influence with most women, even while it completely fails for a minority. I don't care about the minority.


Yes, you've made that clear. Why would you be interested in the women who would make you work for their undivided attention? Luckily, they probably don't care about you either. 



> If you're insulted, they were your implications not mine. I'm often sharp, but I have meant no insult.


I don't believe you. At all.


----------



## Created2Write

SimplyAmorous said:


> Curious...how did you tell them.. do you remember these petrified starters & their reactions ... how old were you ? Bold Missy!


The first guy I was in love with, and outright told him so. I was sixteen. He said he felt the same way, and we decided to "court". But it did not work out. He was dishonest and flirty with other girls, so the love faded really quickly. With DH, it start by just initiating conversation a couple of times(which he responded to by continuing the conversation), then flirting(which he responded to by flirting back), and then after we hung out a couple of times, I brought up whether or not we were together(and he asked me if I wanted us to be together, and I said yes.) 



> If this happened to me as a teen, I'd want to crawl under a rock and die ...I just wouldn't like that at all !


I did want to die. It was so embarrassing. 



> Your H is very good looking... confident looking type, hard to imagine he gave up on girls!..... but I know what you mean -it wasn't anything "meaningful"..and this is something you stepped in and offered .....Here's You *>>*


Hahaha! Yeah, pretty much.


----------



## Sandfly

Something in C2W's post reminded me.

I used to dish out compliments all the time to my customers, and as long as they were genuine - which they were - and were motivated by a 'this might make their day' attitude rather than a self-pointing motive, there was never a bad reaction.

It's not what you say at all, it's just the spirit and appropriateness in which they're given.

Complimenting a complete stranger is a no-no. You know them casually for a couple of weeks, you notice there's something that really suits them, just say it, then move on like nothing's happened. Because nothing _has _happened. It was motive free, except the morale-booster side of it.

On a rare occasion however - occasions enough that I noticed a definite pattern... the women I boosted would open up a bit, and quite often they asked me to go out, for lunch, then for dinner, then maybe back to my house... nothing expected of them, nothing expected of me. Pretty soon you slide into a healthy relationship.

A compliment is at the base of every relationship I've ever had, come to think of it. Often an indirect one, where something positive I've said about them has gotten back to them through someone else.

Sincere compliments therefore are pretty important. A way of showing interest, without showing interest.

No, it's not the deepest thing you've ever read. The purpose of sharing this petty personal revelation is that I'd like to hear if, thinking back, _you too _can trace most or all of your relationships to an offhand compliment, that made you go home buzzing, and eager to come back to see what else they may say.


----------



## soccermom2three

samyeagar said:


> Of course you only make their day if you don't creep them out...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Who cares if you creep them out. Are you ever going to see them again?


----------



## always_alone

My SO often dishes out compliments to other women. Some seem a bit startled by it, but none have seemed creeped out. 

They usually accept it graciously, say thanks, and seem pleased.


----------



## FrenchFry

Yeah, mine does as well.  I see more startled AND THEN happy looks because he will not drop the word "toots" from his vocabulary and I don't know any men who will call a woman toots without hitting on her...but him.


----------



## soccermom2three

FrenchFry said:


> Yeah, mine does as well.  I see more startled AND THEN happy looks because he will not drop the word "toots" from his vocabulary and I don't know any men who will call a woman toots without hitting on her...but him.


Maybe in a former life he was a 1930's gangster.


----------



## welder8899

maybe you two should get a room....



Faithful Wife said:


> Ok so don't compliment AS you approach...but then after you've said hello, chatted for a moment, then you think it is ok?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Sorry you must mean created2write. I've long ago given up the detailed back and forth slams with Dvls...there is no point in them, it goes nowhere. What a waste of money for a hotel room, eh?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Something else interesting is that if you've just now joined us recently and only have 14 posts, I wonder why you'd act like you already know some of us?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Firstly, insult. (Since you wanted me to point it out.)


It was an honest question. Not derogatory. People are more similar than they are different. I literally don't see what you don't get about that. The notion that everyone is so unique that no principles of attraction exist across the population makes no sense to me. Can you be different? Sure. Is any given woman selected at random likely to be different... no. Without seeing a woman, if I guess that she has just above shoulder length or longer hair, I'm going to be right more often than I'm wrong. Principle: women tend to have longer hair. That's all I do. Women tend to be suspicious of compliments, so I know not to compliment if I want better odds of getting a date with her. 



Created2Write said:


> Do men approach women more often than women approach men? I'd say yes. But that doesn't mean it's a rarity for women to approach men? No.


If a small minority of women are even willing to approach men, and those women only approach a fraction of men, then women approaching men is rare. It takes a less common woman finding a less common man. A tiny fraction of all approaches. Is that not a rare approach? We're apparently using the word very differently. Take speeding tickets. Cops give out many speeding tickets a day. But cops are rare. There are WAY more drivers than there are cops. Even if you regularly speed, the likelihood of actually getting a ticket is rare. Its a simple mathematical improbability. The less common speeder has to be where the less common cop is among a huge number of roads and drivers, and that cop has to notice. Rarity is by definition comparative. You'd agree that gold is rare right? Yet almost everyone owns something gold. Yet it is truly rare, because its rareness is defined by how common plain rock is.



Created2Write said:


> You can't know that about "most" women. Period. It is impossible for you to absolutely know it for a fact.


I know well enough to be more successful.



Created2Write said:


> For your lack of real confidence.


If you say so. I'd rather have confidence derived from proven experience than ignorant confidence. Real... fake... irrelevant. I care about what works. The confidently ignorant guy can try to pick her up with a compliment and see how far that gets him.



Created2Write said:


> This is a nice way of saying that you want all/most women to be the same so that you are prepared to accomplish your goal. Which was exactly my point. Thank you for confirming it.


You have it backwards. I have no desire for women to be this or that. Women are whatever they are - similar in some ways and different in others. I pay attention to their similarities and apply that information. Its this wonderful gift human beings have for observing patterns and applying reason to promote desired outcomes. Sorry that bothers you. Works out pretty well for me.



Created2Write said:


> Why would you be interested in the women who would make you work for their undivided attention? Luckily, they probably don't care about you either.


Again, I don't think you're understanding. Its no sort of declaration of one woman superior to the other, or difference of work (what work is it anyway? Its all the same). When I'm approaching someone, I don't know much of anything about her. My approach is going to be informed by what women usually respond to. I'm not going to adjust to what the minority prefers because its improbable that a given women is IN that minority. If the sort of women I want prefer a clean cut guy, I'm not going to come at them all scraggly... even if that's the minority preference. Ergo, I don't care about the minority preference. Follow me?



Created2Write said:


> I don't believe you. At all.


Ok.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> It was an honest question. Not derogatory. People are more similar than they are different. I literally don't see what you don't get about that.


As it relates to be insulting, this is pretty insulting, if one cared. Insisting that someone who disagrees with you does not understand what you are saying is tacit insult.


----------



## TiggyBlue

A genuine NSA compliment has never been anything but nice to receive.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Precisely my point, and this absolutely sounds like insecurity to me. Deep rooted insecurity.
> 
> This all sounds fake. Do whatever you can to _seem_ as sincerely confident as possible, when deep down you're just as insecure as before the toastmaters and talking to everyone. And I think you _do_ care about whether or not it's real. Otherwise you wouldn't have gone to all the trouble in the first place. And why not? Fake confidence is enough to seduce a woman, why need the real thing?


It's all good. You're welcome to have whatever opinion of me you will just as I'm free to have whatever opinion of you I will.

The whole notion you're pushing of real/fake is truly meaningless to me. I recognized certain social skills I lacked as valuable and did what was necessary to get them. Whether I am insecure, or whether you think me insecure, or whether my confidence is real or fake... is completely devoid of meaning to me. Once upon a time, having to give a speech would have made nervously ill. Today, I give speeches and presentations to large groups of highly critical technical experts; I give presentations to people that influence contracts valued from the hundreds of thousands to the low millions. Once upon a time, I wouldn't say a word to someone I didn't know. Today, I talk to anyone. Talking to women I liked was difficult - today, its cake. My experience is not most people's experience. I became who I am by sheer force of thought and will.

Constantly striving for improvement is what drives me, that's what I do, that's who I am. I can see how you'd think that's insecurity. It's all good. I'm doing pretty well with it, so I'll take it.  



Created2Write said:


> I love playful teasing. One of my exes playfully teased me all of the time before we were together, and I didn't take it to mean that he thought poorly of me. He even joked about my lack of running ability in the DEP program, something I was sensitive about, and I never felt insulted. But the way you talk about women on here often leaves me shaking my head and feeling sorry for you. I can never tell if it's just outright bitterness, or defensiveness that causes you to say what you do, but I don't think you have a very good view of women in general.


lol, well, that sort of teasing is exactly what I do. I'm not sure what "way I talk about women" you're specifically referring to... other than what you just agreed to. My saying things like: Most women enjoy playful teasing and give just as good as they get; guys who receive teasing poorly or are timid to give back are less attractive to most women. I understand it as a signal of security and comfort with someone and so its something I pursue. Does it bother you that I map it out rationally? Sorry, but that's how my mind works. 



Created2Write said:


> I don't mean it as a married woman, I mean it hypothetically if I were single.


Would you give out your number to a guy you don't know under any circumstances? If not, oh well... I'm not claiming to have magical hypnotic powers. I just know that I'm able to get the number more often than not, even though most women I know say they'd never give out their number to a strange guy. I paid attention to what my successes had in common, and what my failures had in common... and I adjusted. I became significantly more successful over time. Weirdly, I ask for fewer numbers than I did back in the day... but I generally know she'll give me her number before I even ask.

Honestly, I've enjoyed getting back into the game. Its a rush that requires quick wit and improv.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> What a waste of money for a hotel room, eh?


It really would be.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Sandfly said:


> You know them casually for a couple of weeks, you notice there's something that really suits them, just say it, then move on like nothing's happened. Because nothing _has _happened. It was motive free, except the morale-booster side of it.


This I agree with. This is great if you see them again. It demonstrates you weren't after anything, and they open up if they're actually attracted to you. I compliment my barista, waitresses... hell, I compliment pretty often when I'm not seeking a date. I don't try to pick up a woman working - its not my style. I even compliment the old lady that works our reception area because she's eclectic and puts these crazy colors/streaks in her otherwise white hair... usually purple or pink. 

In most stranger scenarios however, you're probably not going to see them again. You have to build rapport quickly and that means not complimenting.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

NobodySpecial said:


> As it relates to be insulting, this is pretty insulting, if one cared. Insisting that someone who disagrees with you does not understand what you are saying is tacit insult.


Does she actually disagree that people are more similar than different? Because what I gather is just an all out effort to tell me to go stuff my arrogance. Women are all different, I can't know anything, they're apparently unique and mysterious little unicorns. You're arrogant and insecure. wah wah wah

I could say women don't have a penis and she'd point to shemales. Its just obstinance. Do we really need to argue the definition of rare? 

Is calling someone arrogant insulting? How about calling someone insecure? Are either of these relevant points of argument? Have I made any statement about C2W other than that I don't think she understands me? I've intentionally not taken insult to many things that could be easily seen as insulting. C2W is a big girl, I'm sure she can do the same. But if she's going to dish, she shouldn't cry about what she gets.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Does she actually disagree that people are more similar than different?
> I don't know what she believes. I know that *I* believe that people are way more different than you credit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because what I gather is just an all out effort to tell me to go stuff my arrogance. Women are all different, I can't know anything, they're apparently unique and mysterious little unicorns. You're arrogant and insecure. wah wah wah
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think you are any different? You insist that you KNOW PRECISELY what women want. Bull****.
> 
> 
> 
> I could say women don't have a penis and she'd point to shemales. Its just obstinance. Do we really need to argue the definition of rare?
> 
> Is calling someone arrogant insulting? How about calling someone insecure? Are either of these relevant points of argument? Have I made any statement about C2W other than that I don't think she understands me? I've intentionally not taken insult to many things that could be easily seen as insulting. C2W is a big girl, I'm sure she can do the same. But if she's going to dish, she shouldn't cry about what she gets.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I don't know. Are you insulted?
Click to expand...


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

NobodySpecial said:


> I know that *I* believe that people are way more different than you credit.


If they are, then I'd hit more walls than I do. See the previous discussion of compliments. It was largely agreed that they send most women's shields up. Its common enough to take note of and adjust accordingly even if some women aren't suspicious of them.



NobodySpecial said:


> Do you think you are any different? You insist that you KNOW PRECISELY what women want. Bull****.


Not sure where you get precision. I've repeatedly mentioned that its the common attributes that I look for. I make no claim to know precisely what women want. I know what usually nets positive response and what usually nets negative. Compliments are a net negative because they are viewed suspiciously. They only net positive after security is established - such that they are taken as genuine rather than manipulative. The discussion of compliments on this thread almost perfectly matches what experience and intuition had already led me to believe. I think this qualifies as practical knowledge even if it doesn't apply to every single woman. It's common enough to be actionable.

This is what I do across the board. It's not a claim to know all about women. It's a claim to know some things because they usually work - commonalities. I wouldn't have anything to report if women were so dramatically different. It would be a crapshoot. Its not.


----------



## Sandfly

NobodySpecial said:


> As it relates to be insulting, this is pretty insulting, if one cared. Insisting that someone who disagrees with you does not understand what you are saying is tacit insult.


Exaggeration.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Compliments are a net negative because they are viewed suspiciously. They only net positive after security is established - such that they are taken as genuine rather than manipulative.


It's an amazing amount of manipulation you undertake in order to appear genuine. I hope your gf is impressed by your success rate at collecting phone numbers.


----------



## rush

I compliment my wife a lot, and a lot of those times she just smiles and I can see it in her pretty eyes that she loves it. And I mean every compliment I give her too.


----------



## Sandfly

always_alone said:


> It's an amazing amount of manipulation you undertake in order to appear genuine. I hope your gf is impressed by your success rate at collecting phone numbers.


Stop getting so personal when it's just a discussion about 'compliments'.

He's making points that ring true for me.

He's saying you have to censor what you say when you first meet someone.

This is manipulation, but... it's manipulation which everyone outside a lunatic asylum engages in.

If genuine is saying everything that pops into your head, then I know of no genuine people on the planet.


----------



## always_alone

Sandfly said:


> He's saying you have to censor what you say when you first meet someone.


Oh? I thought he was trying to instruct us on how to get phone numbers from random women.

Cuz pretty much everyone here seems to agree that sincere compliments are completely fine things to say, even on a first meeting. 

But you think only lunatics would not self-censor them?


----------



## Sandfly

always_alone said:


> Oh? I thought he was trying to instruct us on how to get phone numbers from random women.
> 
> Cuz pretty much everyone here seems to agree that sincere compliments are completely fine things to say, even on a first meeting.
> 
> But you think only lunatics would not self-censor them?


 it appears that winning an argument is more important to you than trying to understand what someone has really said.

"you have to censor what you say when you first meet someone."

Self-evident.


----------



## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> Oh? I thought he was trying to instruct us on how to get phone numbers from random women.
> 
> *Cuz pretty much everyone here seems to agree that sincere compliments are completely fine things to say, even on a first meeting.*
> 
> But you think only lunatics would not self-censor them?


Yes, we agree on that, but the variation seems to reside with the woman receiving the compliment. It is if SHE perceives it to be genuine, sincere, and a man has no way of knowing before hand how she will perceive it as he can't mind read the woman's sixth sense.


----------



## Faithful Wife

If the man isn't a creep and he knows he isn't, does it really matter that much Sam?


----------



## always_alone

samyeagar said:


> It is if SHE perceives it to be genuine, sincere, and a man has no way of knowing before hand how she will perceive it as he can't mind read the woman's sixth sense.


My mistake. I thought we established pages and pages ago that she's attuned to the sincerity for the most part, and that it was just when there were all sorts of strings attached that made her doubt it.


----------



## samyeagar

always_alone said:


> My mistake. I thought we established pages and pages ago that she's attuned to the sincerity for the most part, and that it was just when there were all sorts of strings attached that made her doubt it.


And we have also established that different women perceive sincerity differently. Different women have different levels of guard, different filters, different tolerances. Women are different, and men, on first approach have no idea what he is going to run into.


----------



## FrenchFry

samyeagar said:


> And we have also established that different women perceive sincerity differently. Different women have different levels of guard, different filters, different tolerances. Women are different, and men, on first approach have no idea what he is going to run into.


Going on that, if you are on the hunt for a partner, don't you want to find someone who is on the same wavelength as you? Like my husband absolutely complimented me right as he met me, with one of the dicier ways to do so-- and it worked for a number of factors including me picking up on his personal vibe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> It's an amazing amount of manipulation you undertake in order to appear genuine. I hope your gf is impressed by your success rate at collecting phone numbers.


The angst here about something so innocuous blows my mind.

When you think about it, doesn't a guy asking for her number mean he must be attracted to her? He wouldn't ask for her number if he thought she's ugly. Yet, if he outright says she's pretty, he's generally going to have a harder time making her feel comfortable enough to give out her number - for bunch of reasons women listed in this thread. If you ever hear a man say women are crazy... this is what he's talking about. It doesn't make sense to us, but it makes sense to women in a world where some guys are cat-calling or making them feel pressure to be polite and respond positively to a compliment. I think women resent that pressure and the negativity is apparent.

Do you not see that you're having it both ways? If a stranger gives you a compliment, you put your guard up and perceive the compliment as a manipulation to get something - its only if he doesn't that you receive it as positive. If I hold off on complimenting, you call this manipulation too. I guess I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't... but thankfully, not complimenting doesn't raise the shields - so I'll go with that if I'm manipulative either way.

My gf teases me about my analytical personality. She laughs that I'll take the tiniest thing and break it down so much I could write a book on why this particular pebble lies sideways, beginning with the origin of the universe. She says I'm like Spock trying to understand being human... I thought that was a dig, but she says its cute. But she also jokes that I could charm a homeless man out of his cardboard box. Says I should've been a politician or a lawyer. I doubt she cares how I've done with other women, but she gave me her number.

I recently wrote an iphone app aimed at helping men be more thoughtful in their relationships. It keeps important dates, unique meaningful things she likes, and has a database of thoughtful ideas, date ideas etc... customizable by interest and effort. Based on user settings, it will randomly prompt the guy with thoughtful things to do today. The service will follow up a little later to verify he's done it and berate him if he hasn't. Or if he's consistently doing them, it'll tell him what a wonderful husband/bf he is. Its all pretty snarky and I have a lot of room for feature expansion, including gifts, and managing non-romantic relationships... ie "call mom". I haven't published it yet as I'm still working out some kinks, but most people I've shown it to think its great. My gf says this is so me. Not actually thoughtful, but knowing its importance and wanting to be, so much so as to devise a bunch of code to help me do it.

Spock.


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> Going on that, if you are on the hunt for a partner, don't you want to find someone who is on the same wavelength as you? Like my husband absolutely complimented me right as he met me, with one of the dicier ways to do so-- and it worked for a number of factors including me picking up on his personal vibe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely agree, but a sincere, NSA compliment would preclude giving one in the hopes of finding a potential partner?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> My mistake. I thought we established pages and pages ago that she's attuned to the sincerity for the most part, and that it was just when there were all sorts of strings attached that made her doubt it.


No, they get her guard up unless she knows there's no strings attached. Its not some special ability to be attuned to sincerity. Its just experience. She's come to think that most compliments come with strings.

Some will get through, probably because she's just really attracted to the guy or already noticed him, but for the most part doubt comes first.


----------



## pidge70

Such a debate over compliments!

I like to receive sincere compliments and I give them back. Something as silly as noticing a cute pair of earrings or a women's lip shade can make their day.


----------



## SadSamIAm

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The angst here about something so innocuous blows my mind.
> 
> When you think about it, doesn't a guy asking for her number mean he must be attracted to her?


That is the problem! Some guys tell a girl she is pretty and ask for her number because he thinks she is easy!


----------



## WyshIknew

pidge70 said:


> Such a debate over compliments!
> 
> I like to receive sincere compliments and I give them back. Something as silly as noticing a cute pair of earrings or a women's lip shade can make their day.


Yes!

There was a young girl in a shop the other day and I couldn't help but notice the way she had done her nails so I complimented her on them.

She seemed really pleased that I had noticed, we had a nice chat for a few minutes and then went our separate ways.

There was no intent to pick her up it was just a guy noticing a pretty young womans nails.


----------



## FrenchFry

samyeagar said:


> Absolutely agree, but a sincere, NSA compliment would preclude giving one in the hopes of finding a potential partner?


 I forgot there are like 80 different things going on here. :rofl:

Dvls isn't talking about NSA compliments, got that sorted.

I agree with FW--if it is sincere and NSA, does it really matter how the woman takes it or how she thinks of you? Even if she does think you are creepy for whatever reason, if you give it and keep it moving, it should only effect you. While compliments should hypothetically make the other person feel good, giving it is mostly about you noticing something you like and feel compelled to talk about it.

That's why I give compliments, and why I give them mostly to women and feel awesome getting them from them--that action feels pretty natural to me. I do not get those kind of NSA compliments from men too often, but it's nice when I do. I'm just not personally used to it because it happens so infrequently that it is actually NSA.

So, if I felt creeped out but dude kept it moving--it's all good because it really was NSA. If I felt creeped out and dude stayed--then its an issue of other motives and why my creepy radar is pinging.


----------



## pidge70

> That's why I give compliments, and why I give them mostly to women and feel awesome getting them from them--that action feels pretty natural to me.


This is how I am as well.


----------



## samyeagar

FrenchFry said:


> I forgot there are like 80 different things going on here. :rofl:
> 
> *Dvls isn't talking about NSA compliments, got that sorted.*
> 
> I agree with FW--if it is sincere and NSA, does it really matter how the woman takes it or how she thinks of you? Even if she does think you are creepy for whatever reason, if you give it and keep it moving, it should only effect you. While compliments should hypothetically make the other person feel good, giving it is mostly about you noticing something you like and feel compelled to talk about it.
> 
> That's why I give compliments, and why I give them mostly to women and feel awesome getting them from them--that action feels pretty natural to me. I do not get those kind of NSA compliments from men too often, but it's nice when I do. I'm just not personally used to it because it happens so infrequently that it is actually NSA.
> 
> So, if I felt creeped out but dude kept it moving--it's all good because it really was NSA. If I felt creeped out and dude stayed--then its an issue of other motives and why my creepy radar is pinging.


I'm just kind of ignoring all that part 

I think a lot of why you may not get many compliments from men is exactly what we are talking about here. A lot of men would love to give compliments, but we know there is a good chance our motives will be questioned from the start, and the initial approach will raise a certain level of discomfort in her as her BS-dar kicks on, even if it doesn't find any. Knowing my motives will be at least initially suspect, even when they are pure erodes some of the compulsion I would feel to say something.


----------



## FrenchFry

How funny, because my next comment was going to be "give more NSA compliments."  Seriously, if I had more positive experiences from men who could compliment and keep it moving like I get from women, the negative association from men giving compliments would diminish. It wouldn't be gone by any means because negatives stick more, but I wouldn't be immediately suspicious if even half of the time a compliment was sincerely NSA.

I understand the hesitation to do so because who really wants to be thought of as creepy. I have no proof of this and it's going on my experiences in other arenas, but I think if you were able to say "oh well" to the people who misinterpreted your intentions or had their radar pinged, more often than not the compliment would be well-recieved, even if it took them a minute to process.

Like doubletrouble did to my friend  she was flabbergasted, she spent a little time in the car on the way home going "what does he mean by that?!" but ultimately she felt awesome and flattered. Hell, I remember this and it was almost 10 years ago.


----------



## Faithful Wife

samyeagar said:


> I think a lot of why you may not get many compliments from men is exactly what we are talking about here. A lot of men would love to give compliments, but we know there is a good chance our motives will be questioned from the start, and the initial approach will raise a certain level of discomfort in her as her BS-dar kicks on, even if it doesn't find any. Knowing my motives will be at least initially suspect, even when they are pure erodes some of the compulsion I would feel to say something.


I guess it just depends on "why" you (anyone) want to compliment someone.

Just to make their day?

Because you want to be seen as a good guy?

Because you wanted to get on her good side, strike up a convo and get her number?

I have NEVER been given a sincere compliment by a creep...I've said that a few times but will say it again. And in fact, true creeps have been rare in my direct experience.

I do get many sincere compliments from many different people...some are trying to get closer to me, but that alone doesn't make them a creep. Some are truly NSA compliments. But again, none from creeps.

If someone really wants to give an NSA compliment for their own reasons (ie: because it makes YOU feel good to offer a compliment) and you don't expect anything back from it (ie: truly NSA) then they should do it no matter how it is received.

If the thought "but what if she thinks I am creepy" comes into your head, then I'd say you (anyone) wasn't really doing it with NSA. If their response, good or bad, changes whether you would do it or not, it wasn't really NSA. Not that this is a bad thing...it just means the compliment wasn't actually NSA. No one says we MUST give NSA compliments anyway, so it doesn't actually matter if you don't.

I think a lot of this has to do with whether a person is introverted or extroverted, too. An extroverted person typically has an easier time giving and receiving NSA compliments, because they are doing it for their own reasons many times.

An introverted person has their own reasons to keep to themselves.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

The fact that its now being referred to as NSA compliments vs SA compliments... shows exactly why I don't compliment when I'm approaching someone. The default assumption is that there are strings attached. That he's saying this to get something. You don't know that he wasn't until he's gone. I don't compliment to get something. I deliberately avoid giving that negative impression. Whether she give me her number or not, I still think she's hot - the compliment is genuine either way - at least from me.

I really don't understand the notion that he'd think she's easy. He has a phone number... not a date... and certainly not sex.

When I'm not seeking a number, I hold off on giving a compliment to a woman I don't know until we're parting ways - like complementing my waitress after I pay the check and am about to head out. Its my impression that women are usually uncomfortable if there's significant interaction after the compliment. I'm complimenting because I like something about her and want her to feel good, not uncomfortable with my continued presence.

I think its sad that this is the way it is. I don't think a compliment should make her less likely to give you her number, but it does. Likewise, there are a ton of other things that women read more into than is actually there. Negative experiences? Perhaps. Still sad.

FW, you may be on to something with the introverted/extroverted thing... the serious introverts I know don't seem comfortable with giving or receiving compliments. I enjoy giving compliments and do it pretty often, I've just learned not to when I'm trying to land a date or get a number. Still, I'm not a natural extrovert. I give compliments far easier than I receive them. As for thinking "will she think I'm creepy if I compliment her"... that's never been in my head. I'm thinking, "She has pretty hair. Should I get her number?" If so, I don't give the compliment because it only works against my getting her number.


----------



## Created2Write

NobodySpecial said:


> As it relates to be insulting, this is pretty insulting, if one cared. Insisting that someone who disagrees with you does not understand what you are saying is tacit insult.


Precisely.


----------



## FrenchFry

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The fact that its now being referred to as NSA compliments vs SA compliments... shows exactly why I don't compliment when I'm approaching someone.


Because approaching someone with a goal is SA! Even if you have the best intentions, even if it's because you think she's cute and want to get to know her better that intention is always present. That vibe is there and we don't get enough compliments that do not have that vibe to be like compliments wholesale are awesome.





> Even when I'm not seeking a number, I hold off on giving a compliment to a woman I don't know until we're parting ways - like complementing my waitress after I pay the check and am about to head out. Its my impression that women are usually uncomfortable if there's significant interaction after the compliment. I'm complimenting because I like something and want her to feel good, not uncomfortable with my continued presence.


Nah, not unless that vibe of SA is there. (edited to add) I was a waitress for several years and that job teaches you a lot about how humans interact and what to look out for. You can absolutely tell the difference between a guy complimenting you without intentions and a guy who is doing so with other intentions. (bad)Waitresses exploit guy number 2 while number 1 is filed under "good customer"



> I think its sad that this is the way it is. I don't think a compliment should make her less likely to give you her number, but it does. Likewise, there are a ton of other things that women more into than is actually there. Negative experiences? Perhaps. Still sad.


It is what it is but if it was a feature of our society that men routinely gave strange women a compliment without expecting anything in return, the whole equilibrium would change and we would be exploring different hypotheticals. As it stands though, we aren't there yet and a lot of women equate a compliment with a guy trying to get something out of them because that is the majority of the way that (I) receive compliments out of nowhere.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Does she actually disagree that people are more similar than different? Because what I gather is just an all out effort to tell me to go stuff my arrogance. Women are all different, I can't know anything, they're apparently unique and mysterious little unicorns. You're arrogant and insecure. wah wah wah
> 
> I could say women don't have a penis and she'd point to shemales. Its just obstinance. Do we really need to argue the definition of rare?
> 
> Is calling someone arrogant insulting? How about calling someone insecure? Are either of these relevant points of argument? Have I made any statement about C2W other than that I don't think she understands me? I've intentionally not taken insult to many things that could be easily seen as insulting. C2W is a big girl, I'm sure she can do the same. But if she's going to dish, she shouldn't cry about what she gets.


I think the difference between us is that I admit when I'm being insulting. You don't. But, then again, I was only repeating what you've said about yourself on this forum and others, so I don't know why you'd be insulted.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The fact that its now being referred to as NSA compliments vs SA compliments... shows exactly why I don't compliment when I'm approaching someone. The default assumption is that there are strings attached.


Aren't there strings attached?


----------



## NobodySpecial

Created2Write said:


> Aren't there strings attached?


Isn't the entire point to be disingenuous so that the strings can be hidden?


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> How funny, because my next comment was going to be "give more NSA compliments."  Seriously, if I had more positive experiences from men who could compliment and keep it moving like I get from women, the negative association from men giving compliments would diminish. It wouldn't be gone by any means because negatives stick more, but I wouldn't be immediately suspicious if even half of the time a compliment was sincerely NSA.


Well yay! Those are the ones I give. "I love your dress..." woosh... I'm there barely long enough to hear her say thank you. Whether she thinks it creepy or not makes no difference to me... odds are I'll never see her again anyway.

This actually happens pretty often when I'm leaving a place and someone else is arriving... its in passing and there's not a good way to really kick a conversation there even if she's stunning and I'd love to find out more. Can't spear every fish.


----------



## Created2Write

NobodySpecial said:


> Isn't the entire point to be disingenuous so that the strings can be hidden?


:rofl:

It sounds right to me.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

NobodySpecial said:


> Isn't the entire point to be disingenuous so that the strings can be hidden?


The point is that there are no strings. If women think compliments come with strings, then don't compliment if you actually want a date/number. She'll perceive it as giving to get... which I think is kinda retarded really... as if sucking up to her will make her like me. I'll let her decide to accept or reject on my merit, not her suspicion toward compliments.


----------



## NobodySpecial

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The point is that there are no strings. If women think compliments come with strings, then don't compliment if you actually want a date/number. She'll perceive it as giving to get... which I think is kinda retarded really... as if sucking up to her will make her like me. I'll let her decide to accept or reject on my merit, not her suspicion toward compliments.


Well that is a rather useless chicken egg discussion, innit?


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The point is that there are no strings. If women think compliments come with strings, then don't compliment *if you actually want a date/number.*


Those are strings, fyi.


----------



## Created2Write

welder8899 said:


> maybe you two should get a room....


My husband and I _will_ be!


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I think the difference between us is that I admit when I'm being insulting. You don't. But, then again, I was only repeating what you've said about yourself on this forum and others, so I don't know why you'd be insulted.


When have you ever admitted to insulting me?

In order to be insulted, I'd have to actually care about what you say about me. Coolest thing... whether I'm arrogant or insecure or anything else has no bearing on whether my argument is correct. 

If you're hurling insults, then you should be banned.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Those are strings, fyi.


Oh. My. God... my brain hurts.

So my doing nothing has strings attached. lol 

That's classic.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

NobodySpecial said:


> Well that is a rather useless chicken egg discussion, innit?


No. No compliment, no suspicion, no issue. There is no chicken. There is no egg. No compliment, no strings.

In order to "attach strings", you gotta have something to attach them to right? Exactly.


----------



## Sandfly

D, even when you're right (as in correct) 
you're wrong (unacceptable).

There's no way you'll be allowed to get anything self-evident and sensible accepted on this thread, because you used up your goodwill in another thread.

CM used all his goodwill up, and now everything he says, which would previously have garnered agreement, is wrong and objectionable.

There is no interest in exploring your point of view, the aim is putting you back in your box, by any means.

Start a thread about the sky being blue on a clear day, and you'll find out that it isn't so.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

^ that's exactly how I feel! Although, I'm pretty sure I never had any goodwill. lol


----------



## always_alone

Sandfly said:


> D, even when you're right (as in correct)
> you're wrong (unacceptable).
> 
> There's no way you'll be allowed to get anything self-evident and sensible accepted on this thread, because you used up your goodwill in another thread.


Oh, please. He's trying to argue that he has no strings attached when approaching women for a phone number. Fact is, wanting to talk to someone for the purpose of getting a phone number *is* a string.

He even referred to it as *spearing* a fish. One thing I know is that if you're attempting to spear a fish, you *always* attach strings. Otherwise you will lose both your fish and your spear.


----------



## pidge70

Awww Dvls, I think you are pretty.


----------



## Created2Write

always_alone said:


> Oh, please. He's trying to argue that he has no strings attached when approaching women for a phone number. Fact is, wanting to talk to someone for the purpose of getting a phone number *is* a string.
> 
> He even referred to it as *spearing* a fish. One thing I know is that if you're attempting to spear a fish, you *always* attach strings. Otherwise you will lose both your fish and your spear.


Precisely. 

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with having a specific intention in mind when approaching or complimenting someone. Just don't be surprised when people call it for what it is.


----------



## Sandfly

I know how you feel 

Long as you don't feel put off posting your point of view, it won't have worked.

"No compliment, no suspicion, no issue. There is no chicken. There is no egg. No compliment, no strings." 

^^^^^^
This was very Tao/Buddha, by the way, made me laugh  :


----------



## Created2Write

I admit, I was insulting you when I said you sounded insecure. I was insulting you when I said you sounded arrogant. That was _after_ you insulted me by stating over(and over and over and over) that you couldn't imagine how I could keep missing what you were saying(basically saying that I'm an idiot), even though I wasn't missing anything. I just wasn't buying what you were saying. So, I'd say they were deserved insults.


----------



## Disenchanted

I only complement Eddie Haskell style (flattery).

If you want something from someone, just be straight up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mRM1VwUiYA


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

*sigh*

Now I'm manipulative for talking to someone I'm interested in. :rofl: 

AA, I'm talking to people whether or not I want dates from them. Struck up a great conversation with the UPS guy just a little while ago. Pretty sure that conversation wasn't conditional on getting his number. Similarly, my conversation with any woman is not conditional on getting her number. Sometimes I talk just to talk - you pick that habit up when you venture out of the introverted world. Do I often want her number, yes. If she doesn't give it to me, oh well... no harm no foul. Where exactly is the string? I still pursue conversations and I'm still going to ask for a number if I want a number.

You know one way you don't ever a date? Not talking.

Y'all are reaching so much you're going to dislocate something.


----------



## Sandfly

Created2Write said:


> I admit, I was insulting you when I said you sounded insecure. I was insulting you when I said you sounded arrogant. That was _after_ you insulted me by stating over(and over and over and over) that you couldn't imagine how I could keep missing what you were saying(basically saying that I'm an idiot), even though I wasn't missing anything. I just wasn't buying what you were saying. So, I'd say they were deserved insults.


"I was wrong but you were wronger."

"Your insults required my interpretation and word play to show them as insults,

Mine were direct and intended."

Listen to yourself a moment. 

Maybe y'all should start over and, first thing which would be nice, is to stop interpreting him through the "misogynist creeper of lonely teenaged girls" spectacles. It turns everything he says into Hidden Motives. That's within you though, it's not objective reality.

This has all underlined one thing: whether a compliment, as with an opinion, is taken well or badly is down to the (oft faulty) perception of the woman who receives it.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

pidge70 said:


> Awww Dvls, I think you are pretty.


Awww... you're sweet. Wait... what's that behind your back? Is that a knife?

NOooooOOOOoooooo! *stab* *stab* stab*


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> No, they get her guard up unless she knows there's no strings attached. Its not some special ability to be attuned to sincerity. Its just experience. She's come to think that most compliments come with strings.
> 
> Some will get through, probably because she's just really attracted to the guy or already noticed him, but for the most part doubt comes first.


See, I don't really think it is the compliment that gets her guard up, despite your assertion that this is so. It's the fact that a random guy is talking to her at all.

Whether or not he compliments me, I will assume a random guy who goes out of his way to talk to me is probably doing so because he wants something from me

And the funny part is that in every other thread, you're right in there saying men have no use in talking to women except for pursuit of sex.

You accuse me of wanting it both ways, but you are the one that does.

So why are you more successful when you don't compliment? Probably because you've succeeded in hiding the strings that brought you over in the first place. That would be my guess, at any rate.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Now I'm manipulative for talking to someone I'm interested in. :rofl:


No, just in the extremely contorted and calculated way that you go about it.


----------



## pidge70

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Awww... you're sweet. Wait... what's that behind your back? Is that a knife?
> 
> NOooooOOOOoooooo! *stab* *stab* stab*


Silly man, I'm Irish. We don't stab people.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> I admit, I was insulting you when I said you sounded insecure. I was insulting you when I said you sounded arrogant. That was _after_ you insulted me by stating over(and over and over and over) that you couldn't imagine how I could keep missing what you were saying(basically saying that I'm an idiot), even though I wasn't missing anything. I just wasn't buying what you were saying. So, I'd say they were deserved insults.


Ok... well, I still have no idea what about it you don't buy. Is that better than saying I can't imagine what you don't get? Same thing as far as I'm concerned. It is true that most women view compliments from strange men suspiciously. Its not until after they know he's not trying to get something, that its taken as genuine. Not complimenting does in fact avoid this whole mess. Think whatever you will about it, but this is truth. If you think this is manipulative, wow... I can't imagine what you think of makeup.

What I do get is that everything I do or don't do is manipulative. :rofl:

Hell I don't know, its every which way up in here as long as it means avoiding agreeing with me.


----------



## Sandfly

always_alone said:


> Whether or not he compliments me, *I will assume a* random guy who goes out of his way to talk to me is *probably *doing so *because *he wants something from me.


Your filters getting in the way of seeing other possibilities.

When you were a child, you had no such pre-conceptions. Remember how easy it was to make friends? Making an enemy was hard work.

Now it's the reverse. The thing that has changed is the viewer, not the things outside the mind.

You assume hostility and magically, everyone's plotting.

For your _own _happiness, you should take steps towards not assuming everyone is out to get you. The only person harmed by cynicism is the cynic.


----------



## pidge70

> The only person harmed by cynicism is the cynic.


That's deep mate......:smthumbup:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> No, just in the extremely contorted and calculated way that you go about it.


Its wrong to apply thought to why one thing worked and another doesn't? Are people not doing the same when they wear makeup? When they dress to the 9's to hit the singles scene? Wear lipstick? Pushup bras? Working out for aesthetics? Or are these just more common... socially acceptable manipulations?


----------



## pidge70

> Pushup bras


I wear those for me. After 4 children, momma needs the underwire......


----------



## WyshIknew

Maxim #55: The training of the woman distills to this essence: Punish her bad behavior consistently, reward her good behavior intermittently.

Da fuq? :scratchhead:

This is another adult human they are talking about isn't it?


----------



## Disenchanted

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its already boiling... now you're gonna stir it too? Even I don't go that far. :rofl:


Dude, you can't explain to women how women work, they just don't get it.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Ok... well, I still have no idea what about it you don't buy. Is that better than saying I can't imagine what you don't get? Same thing as far as I'm concerned. It is true that most women view compliments from strange men suspiciously. Its not until after they know he's not trying to get something, that its taken as genuine. Not complimenting does in fact avoid this whole mess. Think whatever you will about it, but this is truth. If you think this is manipulative, wow... I can't imagine what you think of makeup.


_Your_ truth, maybe. It's not mine. And it't not _what_ you're doing that is manipulative, it's why and how you're doing it. I don't wear makeup to manipulate men, I wear makeup because I love makeup. I've always loved makeup. Same as I like clothes and shoes, and having my nails done, and keeping my legs shaved, and keeping myself in healthy shape, and brushing my teeth. 

But nice try. 



> What I do get is that everything I do or don't do is manipulative. :rofl:
> 
> Hell I don't know, its every which way up in here as long as it means avoiding agreeing with me.


Oh please. Don't act like a victim. I've agreed with you many times on many things. Now when I don't agree on something it means I'm avoiding it? Whatever.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Disenchanted said:


> Dude, you can't explain to women how women work, they just don't get it.


Oh boy... get ready to duck...


----------



## Disenchanted

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Oh boy... get ready to duck...


Meh, this entire thread appears to have been created for the sole purpose of a flame war. It's Friday, why not?


----------



## Created2Write

It's clear that a lot of the men here dislike women as a whole. I feel sorry for them. I hope they can learn to let go of their anger.


----------



## pidge70

Disenchanted said:


> Dude, you can't explain to women how women work, they just don't get it.


----------



## Disenchanted

AU contraire mon frer, I LOVE LOVE LOVE women, and they love me even more!

This text just in:

#1

"Hi Dr. Dis. Just confirming my appointment with you at 5. Please make sure you scheduled plenty of time for me as I am in need of a thorough examination"

#2 "Friendly reminder please have your equipment clean (FOOPP) and engorged"

Yep, I hate 'em.

PS no compliments required to get this attention from those people


----------



## FrenchFry

Oh look, I get to delete **** from chateau heartise.


----------



## Disenchanted

Uh I didn't realize it was against the rules to post that, my bad.


----------



## FrenchFry

No worries, men don't know what they should and shouldn't do.


----------



## pidge70

Disenchanted said:


> AU contraire mon frer, I LOVE LOVE LOVE women, and they love me even more!
> 
> This text just in:
> 
> #1
> 
> "Hi Dr. Dis. Just confirming my appointment with you at 5. Please make sure you scheduled plenty of time for me as I am in need of a thorough examination"
> 
> #2 "Friendly reminder please have your equipment clean (FOOPP) and engorged"
> 
> Yep, I hate 'em.
> 
> PS no compliments required to get this attention from those people


Doesn't sound like "love", sounds more like you are nothing but a booty call. I'm sure you are cool with that though. Not everyone has to like a person to have sex with them.....just sayin.


----------



## pidge70

FrenchFry said:


> No worries, men don't know what they should and shouldn't do.


Holy Hell! I seriously laughed out loud in front of my comp!


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> _Your_ truth, maybe.


Its not mine, its not yours. Its truth. Most women view such compliments suspiciously. If you're not like most women, cool... but its still true.



Created2Write said:


> I don't wear makeup to manipulate men, I wear makeup because I love makeup.


Okay. And you wear uncomfortable, more difficult to walk in shoes because you like uncomfortable feet and making walking more difficult.

Alrighty then. Surface answers. When you put more thought into it you'll realize you do so for social acceptance and appeal... and that they work is why they make you feel good and like them.


----------



## pidge70

Not this chick, I wear tennis shoes. Loves me some Adidas!


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> It's clear that a lot of the men here dislike women as a whole. I feel sorry for them. I hope they can learn to let go of their anger.


lol now I dislike women.

Arrogant... insecure... dislike women...

Amusements galore!


----------



## Disenchanted

pidge70 said:


> Doesn't sound like "love", sounds more like you are nothing but a booty call. I'm sure you are cool with that though. Not everyone has to like a person to have sex with them.....just sayin.


No really, I love women. _All of them_.


----------



## pidge70

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> lol now I dislike women.
> 
> Arrogant... insecure... dislike women...
> 
> Amusements galore!


You forgot narcissist.....I got your back!


----------



## FrenchFry

I actually was working on a post, so let me get to it.

My disconnect is why people give compliments.

I don't give compliments to other people to find out more. I give compliments on the things I already know, whether it be a nice dress, a job well done or a beautiful feature on a person. This is how compliments come from women in my life and very rarely from men. I'm not complimenting to start a conversation or to find out more about a person, if it does it just happens. Sometimes it actually sucks to do it to a woman because just like with men, you want to get a coffee and keep your day going.

When you/other men/other women do it the opposite way: you are giving a compliment actually to find out more, that is when the flags go up. It might be that more men do it to get to know more and more women do it to comment on a known feature but that is the disconnect. It's also why I'm letting my guard down because my experience has been 90% men trying to get to know more and 90% of the time, I'm trying to get coffee. 90% of women will comment and keep it moving or keep it on the topic of shoes so I can get my coffee.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> No worries, men don't know what they should and shouldn't do.


Not true, women have told us what to do: everything and nothing.


----------



## Disenchanted

FrenchFry said:


> I actually was working on a post, so let me get to it....


I like your avatar FF.

please don't ban me


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its not mine, its not yours. Its truth. Most women view such compliments suspiciously. If you're not like most women, cool... but its still true.


I don't buy it. 



> Okay. And you wear uncomfortable, more difficult to walk in shoes because you like uncomfortable feet and making walking more difficult.


No, I wear my totally awesome heels because I like my totally awesome heels. I wear my clothes because I like my clothes. 



> Alrighty then. Surface answers. When you put more thought into it you'll realize you do so for social acceptance and appeal... and that they work is why they make you feel good and like them.


And now you're telling me why I do the things I do.  rofl. And you wonder why I think you're arrogant? I couldn't care less about social acceptance or appeal. I care about myself and what I enjoy wearing. Period.


----------



## FrenchFry

Believe it or not, I actually do get where you are coming from.

I also know why your approach wouldn't work on me and a compliment from my husband did--I'd be hella suspicious why you were talking to me at all and waiting for the inevitability of you (a man, not you personally) asking me for my number. My husband eliminated that suspicion and gave me a choice off the bat. I (and other women) like that approach, I can see why the other way is sucessful as well.


----------



## FrenchFry

Disenchanted said:


> I like your avatar FF.
> 
> please don't ban me


 I also like compliments given under duress.

(no worries, just know that CH isn't marriage friendly.)


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> lol now I dislike women.
> 
> Arrogant... insecure... dislike women...
> 
> Amusements galore!


Your posts are definitely amusing, that's for sure.


----------



## Disenchanted

FrenchFry said:


> Believe it or not, I actually do get where you are coming from........


You have the greatest writing style, did you major in English in college? I imagine you must have at least a Masters in English, am I right?


----------



## Disenchanted

FrenchFry said:


> I also like compliments given under duress.
> 
> (no worries, just know that CH isn't marriage friendly.)


But but but that was an article for men on how to maintain attraction in a LTR (even marriage).

Did you even give it a chance?

PS you look really nice today.


----------



## WyshIknew

FrenchFry said:


> I actually was working on a post, so let me get to it.
> 
> My disconnect is why people give compliments.
> 
> I don't give compliments to other people to find out more. I give compliments on the things I already know, whether it be a nice dress, a job well done or a beautiful feature on a person. This is how compliments come from women in my life and very rarely from men. I'm not complimenting to start a conversation or to find out more about a person, if it does it just happens. Sometimes it actually sucks to do it to a woman because just like with men, you want to get a coffee and keep your day going.
> 
> When you/other men/other women do it the opposite way: you are giving a compliment actually to find out more, that is when the flags go up. It might be that more men do it to get to know more and more women do it to comment on a known feature but that is the disconnect. It's also why I'm letting my guard down because my experience has been 90% men trying to get to know more and 90% of the time, I'm trying to get coffee. 90% of women will comment and keep it moving or keep it on the topic of shoes so I can get my coffee.


Ha!

This was another instance.

I saw a woman in the shop the other day wearing some Louboutins, they looked terrific and I told her so. She said "thank you" and smiled. That was the limit of our conversation, I wouldn't have mentioned anything but our eyes just happened to meet.

I thought complimenting her shoes was nicer than simply saying "Hi".


----------



## FrenchFry




----------



## Disenchanted




----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> I actually was working on a post, so let me get to it.
> 
> My disconnect is why people give compliments.
> 
> I don't give compliments to other people to find out more. I give compliments on the things I already know, whether it be a nice dress, a job well done or a beautiful feature on a person. This is how compliments come from women in my life and very rarely from men. I'm not complimenting to start a conversation or to find out more about a person, if it does it just happens. Sometimes it actually sucks to do it to a woman because just like with men, you want to get a coffee and keep your day going.
> 
> When you/other men/other women do it the opposite way: you are giving a compliment actually to find out more, that is when the flags go up. It might be that more men do it to get to know more and more women do it to comment on a known feature but that is the disconnect. It's also why I'm letting my guard down because my experience has been 90% men trying to get to know more and 90% of the time, I'm trying to get coffee. 90% of women will comment and keep it moving or keep it on the topic of shoes so I can get my coffee.


Isn't this very much in alignment with what I've been saying?

Compliments are reserved for when that's all there is... an observation of something I like. With men its usually about their work or something they have, with women its usually physical or something they're wearing. I don't compliment to start a conversation. I don't compliment to get a number. If I'm complimenting, I'm probably only passing by. I liked something, I told them, and I hope it puts a smile on their face after I'm gone. That's the extent of compliments from me.

I also agree with you about being undisruptive. Even when I am trying to build rapport, I don't do so in a disruptive manner. If you're just standing there pumping gas or waiting in line, what else do you have to do? I have a lot of conversations there with men and women. People who don't want to be bothered give short replies, don't engage, and I leave them be.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Your posts are definitely amusing, that's for sure.


Thank you. I am rather charming.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Thank you. I am rather charming.


Ha! Sure. That's what I meant.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> And now you're telling me why I do the things I do.  rofl. And you wonder why I think you're arrogant? I couldn't care less about social acceptance or appeal. I care about myself and what I enjoy wearing. Period.


And fashion and beauty trends don't exist. You're immune. Your closet is full of 80s shoulder pads because you just love them, everyone else be damned! When I say you don't "get it", this is often what I mean. You literally don't understand what I'm saying. You think its all your random isolated preference without any awareness as to why you have those preferences.

If you were Kayan, you'd think your neck ring was all your isolated preference. I'm arrogant? You're naïve.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> And fashion and beauty trends don't exist. You're immune. Your closet is full of 80s shoulder pads because you just love them, everyone else be damned! When I say you don't "get it", this is often what I mean. You literally don't understand what I'm saying.


No, I really do understand. You're just wrong. 



> You think its all your random isolated preference without any awareness as to why you have those preferences.


Maybe _you_ have to fit in and be like everyone else, I really don't. As a teen, sure. Now? I do what _I_ like, completely independent of anyone else. You can believe whatever you want about me, but you'll still be wrong. 



> If you were Kayan, you'd think your neck ring was all your isolated preference. I'm arrogant? You're naïve.


You assume that fashion trends dictate personal style choice, and jump to extreme examples(like using a completely different culture) to illustrate your points. There's no talking with you. Until you can accept people as individuals and stop assuming that everyone you meet falls under the same umbrella, your personality will always push people away. I really do get what you say. I think you're wrong, at least you're wrong about me. If that makes me naive, so be it. I'd rather be naive than fit your idea of how women are.


----------



## Sandfly

Created2Write said:


> It's clear that a lot of the men here dislike women as a whole. I feel sorry for them. I hope they can learn to let go of their anger.


, haaaaaaaaaaaa. 

Does this kind of attempt to bend minds ever work IRL?

"Dislike women as a Whole".

I think you'll find the problem is some men only like women as a ... 'whole', 

... and your prior bad experiences of picking those sort of men are colouring how you feel about all men who disagree with you.

You interpret it as a lack of 'respect' for you. 

I personally have neither respect nor disrespect, like nor dislike. I don't know you!


----------



## FrenchFry

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Isn't this very much in alignment with what I've been saying?


I dunno, I lost the plot. Basically, don't talk to me at a gas station is what I'm saying.


----------



## Created2Write

I don't think it's a "lack of respect for me" at all, actually. I _do_, however, think it's unfortunate.


----------



## Sandfly

Created2Write said:


> I don't think it's a "lack of respect for me" at all, actually. I _do_, however, think it's unfortunate.


The world will keep on turning though, in spite of what either of us think.

You get people talking to you at Petrol Stations?

You mean the cashier? You're supposed to pay him, he wants your money, not your body


----------



## Created2Write

I wasn't talking about the gas station.


----------



## always_alone

Sandfly said:


> Your filters getting in the way of seeing other possibilities.


Oh, but I'm 100% accurate. Just ask Dvl's. He's spent a few hundred pages explaining to me that when men approach women, they want sex. 

Truth is, I have no problem making friends or being friendly with people. I don't assume hostility unless I see some evidence of it in tone or behaviour. I'm just not particularly receptive to PUA, and despite Dvl's claim to the contrary, they're pretty obvious -especially now that I'm older and wiser.

Oh, and cynicism *makes* me happy. Without it, I'm quite sure my head would explode.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> No, I really do understand. You're just wrong.


Everyone is subject to cultural norms and social acceptance, even a very independent, anti-establishment girl such as yourself (and I say that very tongue in cheek). Its why you want to wear make-up as you do, its why you dress within certain parameters, its why you don't wear giant rings that stretch your neck or put a big disc in your lower lip.

You don't just want what you want out of thin air. Much of what we all want is what society has taught us to want. Makeup is one of the ways women competed with other women for the attention of men - first as a heavy black eye liner worn in ancient Africa and the middle east. The contrast makes the white of the eyes appear brighter, and the whiteness of the eye is one of those universally attractive traits you and others hate so much... its strongly correlated with youth and health. From there you have foundation to cover blemishes, various shades to appear exotic or flushed/aroused. This is why makeup exists.

To wit, you want to wear makeup today because of the social norm to do so, and adherence to this norm makes you feel better; violating social norms most often feels bad; we're social creatures, we want social acceptance; non-conformist behavior is usually just a negative attention getter or response to rejection -establishing a subculture which still shares most of the features of the parent culture. Make-up is a social norm that is rooted in being more attractive to men, whether you lack awareness of it, deny it or not... and today, you down right can't go certain places without it, especially if you're seeking a mate. Its root is in appealing to men at its very core, in that really deep down place inside you, way past the part of you that just wants to be beautiful and confident and doesn't really know why.


----------



## Sandfly

always_alone said:


> Oh, but I'm 100% accurate. Just ask Dvl's. He's spent a few hundred pages explaining to me that when men approach women, they want sex.
> 
> Truth is, I have no problem making friends or being friendly with people. I don't assume hostility unless I see some evidence of it in tone or behaviour. I'm just not particularly receptive to PUA, and despite Dvl's claim to the contrary, they're pretty obvious -especially now that I'm older and wiser.
> 
> Oh, and cynicism *makes* me happy. Without it, I'm quite sure my head would explode.


Funny choice of username, if it's making you happy. 

You don't come across as happy either. 

You think you read hostility, and you double it in your response posts. Might give you a feeling of triumph, for a second. 

They respond to your tone, with tone - this time for real, not just your imagined hostility. You take this as "confirmation" that you were correct all along about all these "fake people". Chalk one up to you, victory. Right again. Happy? No.

This is not being 'right'. 

You're simply getting back what you're putting out there. Projecting.

Try a new outlook... this one isn't working for you. 

Why be 'always alone'? At least find someone to be 'miserable together'.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> I dunno, I lost the plot. Basically, don't talk to me at a gas station is what I'm saying.


How's the grocery store line work for you? Strolling the bookstore? 

Or are you saying don't talk to you unless you're at the club/bar/singles joint? Ah, that doesn't work either... a lot of you are just partying and trying to have a good time, not deal with men.

See my point? Where exactly is it okay and where is this written? Its not. You're defensive almost everywhere. lol

I talk to everyone everywhere. I especially seek to talk to women I'm attracted to... yep, that's why I chose THIS line instead of THAT line. Since I don't actually ask most of them for numbers, hopefully I'm making a deposit to the random-guy-talking-to-me-and-not-asking-me-out positive experience bank you referred to earlier.


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> You don't just want what you want out of thin air. Much of what we all want is what society has taught us to want. Makeup is one of the ways women competed with other women for the attention of men - first as a heavy black eye liner worn in ancient Africa and the middle east. The contrast makes the white of the eyes appear brighter, and the whiteness of the eye is one of those universally attractive traits you and others hate so much... its strongly correlated with youth and health. From there you have foundation to cover blemishes, various shades to appear exotic or flushed/aroused. This is why makeup exists.
> 
> To wit, you want to wear makeup today because of the social norm to do so, and adherence to this norm makes you feel better; violating social norms most often feels bad; we're social creatures, we want social acceptance; non-conformist behavior is usually just a negative attention getter or response to rejection -establishing a subculture which still shares most of the features of the parent culture. Make-up is a social norm that is rooted in being more attractive to men, whether you lack awareness of it, deny it or not... and today, you down right can't go certain places without it, especially if you're seeking a mate. Its root is in appealing to men at its very core, in that really deep down place inside you, way past the part of you that just wants to be beautiful and confident and doesn't really know why.


Throughout history both men and women used make up to accentuate their features.


----------



## always_alone

Sandfly said:


> You think you read hostility, and you double it in your response posts. Might give you a feeling of triumph, for a second.


You're not really listening to me, are you? That's all right then. Keep making stuff up and accusing me of projecting. :rofl:


----------



## FrenchFry

I actually see this complaint a lot from men and a lot of the time it really is chalked up to missing cues or not caring and taking a chance anyway. Which is fine, but don't complain that women are defensive when you don't care.

Don't tell me you walk into a bar and can't differentiate the difference between women who want nothing to do with anyone and women who are looking for someone to interact with people, even if that person isn't you in particular. You pride yourself on your observational skills, it's right there.

I give leeway to people who miss those cues, we all don't sit around observing how people behave and put things together. I don't for people who know better like you. Just you know, be real and say you don't really care and are trying to bust down the barrier anyway.


----------



## pidge70

Why does a frigging compliment have to be so ominous? 

If anyone here ever sees me out and about, feel free to compliment me. I don't care if you are fat, old, ugly, I just appreciate a sincere compliment. You also might get one back.....


----------



## FrenchFry

Pidge, I like your smoking heart. 

Also, we have a compulsive need to have circle-jerks in certain threads. Nothing ever gets solved or anything, we just can't help ourselves.


----------



## pidge70

FrenchFry said:


> Pidge, I like your smoking heart.
> 
> Also, we have a compulsive need to have circle-jerks in certain threads. Nothing ever gets solved or anything, we just can't help ourselves.


Thank you FF. I like your little dancing man in your sig.


----------



## Sandfly

always_alone said:


> You're not really listening to me, are you? That's all right then. Keep making stuff up and accusing me of projecting. :rofl:


The word 'accusing' is overused on TAM.

No-one seems to ever be 'really listening' to you AA.

No problem, just wanted to suggest that a change of outlook might change your world. I've done that, mission accomplished.


----------



## always_alone

Sandfly said:


> The word 'accusing' is overused on TAM.


This is probably true, but you do realize that you said these exact words to me:



Sandfly said:


> You're simply getting back what you're putting out there. Projecting.


Now maybe I'm supposed to see this as observation, rather than accusation, but to me it's not a problem if others disagree with my outlook.

In fact, I take it as an outright compliment when I find the views of the person disagreeing with me ill conceived, or based on utterly false assumptions.


----------



## I Notice The Details

pidge70 said:


> Why does a frigging compliment have to be so ominous?
> 
> If anyone here ever sees me out and about, feel free to compliment me. I don't care if you are fat, old, ugly, I just appreciate a sincere compliment. You also might get one back.....



:iagree: with Pidge!

I try to give out at least one compliment everyday. I know, I must be odd, but that is my personality. My son is also picking up on this habit. It has to be a sincere compliment and can be something very simple like..."I really appreciate your great smile" written on a restaurant bill as I pay it, or simply saying..."you look great in that dress" to a stranger walking by me. I told a lady in the Chicago airport on Thursday that I noticed how gracefully she walked. She smiled at me and said she was a dancer for 10 years. She said, "thank you for noticing" as she walked away. 

I usually don't wonder how they are going to take it, I just give the compliment if it is sincere. I believe it is the little things like compliments that can change a person's whole day. Everyone does good things. Everyone has something beautiful about them. Notice them, and tell them. Life if so much more interesting this way. Just my opinion.


----------



## always_alone

I realize that for a complimentary the to be sincere, it has to come from within, from a genuine appreciation. But I find it kind of sad that for women what gets noticed is always looks and fashion based.

I was thinking about this thread, and realized I dish out compliments all the time - but mostly not about looks. I might comment on an especially cool outfit or new look, but mostly I focus elsewhere.

Eg:. "What a fantastic dinner!", "Good idea!", "Great catch!", "Awesome effort".

This sort of stuff means so much more to me than stuff like "nice dress".


----------



## NobodySpecial

always_alone said:


> I realize that for a complimentary the to be sincere, it has to come from within, from a genuine appreciation. But I find it kind of sad that for women what gets noticed is always looks and fashion based.
> 
> I was thinking about this thread, and realized I dish out compliments all the time - but mostly not about looks. I might comment on an especially cool outfit or new look, but mostly I focus elsewhere.
> 
> Eg:. "What a fantastic dinner!", "Good idea!", "Great catch!", "Awesome effort".
> 
> This sort of stuff means so much more to me than stuff like "nice dress".


Yah. And it is important as we raise our daughters that our compliments will shape them. If we want our daughters to grow up thoughtful and capable, then our actions and comments toward them should reflect that and not be about only how cute and pretty she is.


----------



## I Notice The Details

always_alone said:


> I realize that for a complimentary the to be sincere, it has to come from within, from a genuine appreciation. But I find it kind of sad that for women what gets noticed is always looks and fashion based.
> 
> I was thinking about this thread, and realized I dish out compliments all the time - but mostly not about looks. I might comment on an especially cool outfit or new look, but mostly I focus elsewhere.
> 
> Eg:. "What a fantastic dinner!", "Good idea!", "Great catch!", "Awesome effort".


Awesome! We need to teach our children to give compliments and look for the good in others. It all starts at home. :smthumbup:


----------



## Created2Write

Dvls, you can insist that you know why I do the things I do all you want, you can analyse and write out your lengthy responses. At the end of the day, you're still wrong about me. Very, very wrong.


----------



## rush

hum again.....


----------



## I Notice The Details

Life is short. We should be giving out compliments daily.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Details...are you an introvert or extrovert?


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Lionelhutz said:


> *I never compliment women unless they are immediate family or an indirect compliment such as referring to child rearing techniques or her home.*
> 
> I find it very sad but I just can't keep track of if, when or how my comment might be misinterpreted and be seen as creepy. There have been times when I really wanted to say something nice to someone because I thought she looked particularly good that day and or her spirits looked like they needed a lift. But it has to be said in just the right way and in the right circumstance and to the right person. By the time I have thought about all that it is not spontaneous and that in itself will make it sound potentially creepy.


I'd have to say my H is like this.. he just doesn't go there.. well except for this one woman at work...she is like a better worker than half the men and he does uplift her...and she deserves it... so if he knows someone well -he will do it....if not...he is more just a bystander...

I am much more complimentary to strangers.... for instance..... when I appreciate a FAST organized friendly cashier/ secretary.....If I am thinking to myself 'Darn, she is on the ball... I appreciate her attitude! -what a model employee "....why not just speak it...so she is encouraged to keep up the good work...that's my feelings on it...

Cause frankly...I get annoyed with slow -stone faced employees who are yakking to another employee while you are in line...Witnessed this asinine behavior in the Grocery store yesterday... this girl was a total Ditz...she was laughing yakking to another employee, while attempting to enter some reduced flour ...dumb broad almost charged me $7.99 for something that was 79 cents... I told her she has better correct that ... I was thinking 'Good thing I am not her boss!"....so yeah...some people really SUCK at their jobs..so when I see excellence, I am compelled to praise it...I like to bring a  to someone's face...they deserve it...for doing a good job...on the job.

If a Salesman manages to sell anything to me, he is probably pretty good, my H jokes about this, In fact pretty sure he has complimented on these things..telling the guy...if you got her to buy something......you're good!...he'll say "she's tough".... 



> *I Notice the details said*:
> *I try to give out at least one compliment everyday*. *I know, I must be odd, but that is my personality. My son is also picking up on this habit. It has to be a sincere compliment and can be something very simple like..."I really appreciate your great smile" written on a restaurant bill as I pay it, or simply saying..."you look great in that dress" to a stranger walking by me. I told a lady in the Chicago airport on Thursday that I noticed how gracefully she walked. She smiled at me and said she was a dancer for 10 years. She said, "thank you for noticing" as she walked away*.


 I really LIKE your attitude, I think more people should be LIKE YOU I notice the details... 

Obviously I don't think many people deserve a compliment -given my above thoughts...but when they do.. I praise.. I also don't really worry if they think I am weird.. If I FEEL it, I say it.. 



> *I usually don't wonder how they are going to take it, I just give the compliment if it is sincere*.* I believe it is the little things like compliments that can change a person's whole day. Everyone does good things. Everyone has something beautiful about them. Notice them, and tell them. Life if so much more interesting this way. Just my opinion.*


----------



## I Notice The Details

Faithful Wife said:


> Details...are you an introvert or extrovert?


If I understand both of these terms...I think extroverts are energized by people. I would say that is true about me, and I like to give positive energy to other people. I love to do this. I have a ton of empathy and patience. Lots of confidence too. I am a giver, not a taker.

That being said, I am not a person who loves being in the spotlight, or the center of attention. That is not my personality. I have always done well staying "below the radar" in most situations. Does that make sense?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I Notice The Details said:


> If I understand both of these terms...I think extroverts are energized by people. I would say that is true about me, and I like to give positive energy to other people. I love to do this. I have a ton of empathy and patience. Lots of confidence too. I am a giver, not a taker.
> 
> That being said, I am not a person who loves being in the spotlight, or the center of attention. That is not my personality. I have always done well staying "below the radar" in most situations. Does that make sense?


Makes perfect sense. I'm an introvert..people exhaust me


----------



## SimplyAmorous

> Originally Posted by I *Notice The Details*
> If I understand both of these terms...*I think extroverts are energized by people.* I would say that is true about me, and I like to give positive energy to other people. I love to do this. I have a ton of empathy and patience. Lots of confidence too. I am a giver, not a taker.
> 
> That being said, I am not a person who loves being in the spotlight, or the center of attention. That is not my personality. I have always done well staying "below the radar" in most situations. Does that make sense?





ScarletBegonias said:


> Makes perfect sense. *I'm an introvert..people exhaust me*


I am teetering at the brink of both...in my youth, those tests came out more Introverted and now they come out more Extroverted... 

I have found...it purely depends on the person/ people I am around....If I enjoy their company/ feel comfortable with them ...(or love them)...I could tie myself to them 24 hrs a day and still be energized (like my H) but if they get on my nerves .. I can only stand it for so long and I want the run from them, thinking of ways to exit...so I can breathe again / go relax to some "solitude".... 

Good friends, good conversation, laughing, learning, a little hot debate...however, I could , and have stayed up the ENTIRE night bSing with some people...and get off on it..... 

Husband is a double whammy introvert but he never tires of being around me and doesn't need a cave (so he tells me)....this makes me feel extra special...as I know the vast majority of introverts NEED their space....to re-energize.


----------



## I Notice The Details

:iagree: SimplyAmorous

I think I am on the brink of both too. I can relate to both descriptions, but you are right SA, it depends on the people! I have always noticed positive energy in people, and I am an optimistic, giving person myself. My wife says I give off positive energy wherever I go. That is what she first noticed about me. Nice compliment from her!!!


----------



## ScarletBegonias

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have found...it purely depends on the person/ people I am around....If I enjoy their company/ feel comfortable with them ...(or love them)...I could tie myself to them 24 hrs a day and still be energized (like my H) but if they get on my nerves .. I can only stand it for so long and I want the run from them, thinking of ways to exit...so I can breathe again / go relax to some "solitude"....


you know,I feel this way about DH now that you mention it.I can spend 24/7 with him and feel totally energized and at peace. LOL selectively introverted I am


----------



## I Notice The Details

ScarletBegonias said:


> you know,I feel this way about DH now that you mention it.I can spend 24/7 with him and feel totally energized and at peace. LOL selectively introverted I am


See....it does depend on the person. SA is right!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I Notice The Details said:


> :iagree: SimplyAmorous
> 
> I think I am on the brink of both too. I can relate to both descriptions, but you are right SA, it depends on the people! I have always noticed positive energy in people, and I am an optimistic, giving person myself. My wife says I give off positive energy wherever I go. That is what she first noticed about me. Nice compliment from her!!!


My H talks about me like this..he often says 'Everyone loves you" -what he means is when we meet people...how I can talk to anyone, get them to laugh & open up...even the most difficult of people ..he doesn't mind this, as he is right there beside me...I pull him into the conversations too....I am more the social animal. 

I asked him once if I died, what he'd miss the most .... I was baiting him hoping he would say







....(in that wild spell of mine)...Ha ha ...but he answered my "liveliness" ...well that's good too  

Yet ....I'd have to say deep down...I am naturally more of a Pessimist over an Optimist ...this is teetering too...depending on *what* is in front of me.. 

I can not stand to get my hopes up for something that may not happen...to assume something that might come back & BITE ME... so I will not allow myself to go there....it's a defense mechanism I suppose.. to keep my feet on the ground, no pipe dreams in the sky for me.

If I get caught in these mental circles though... that has it's own issues, and can stop me from reaching out..... I've always been one who has to prepare myself for the worst at every peril....I am cautious, calculated in everything I do...

But given my personality out & about, one may not think this of me...There is a poster here by the name of "Optimistic Pessimist".. I loved that.. yeah that describes it !... I complimented him on his name - plus I felt his posts were deeply insightful too!

I so enjoy the "temperament" talk.. it is fascinating...and helps us know how to deal / engage with other personalities -different from our own in many ways..


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Damn... judging by those lists I'm Sanguiphlemelancholeric. 

I don't think I fit those temperament categories well, but if I had to choose a "closest fit" I guess I'd be Choleric. What traits I fit kinda depends on who I'm around or what I'm doing.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Damn... judging by those lists I'm Sanguiphlemelancholeric.
> 
> I don't think I fit those temperament categories well, but if I had to choose a "closest fit" I guess I'd be Choleric. What traits I fit kinda depends on who I'm around or what I'm doing.


If you want to get a breakdown...see where you are primary...take a moment & do this test...

Personality Score Sheet  (this one needs printed - a page for the Strength's & a page for the Weaknesses of each -then adding the scoring at the end) 

***** Or here : the same thing -without printing it but figuring online Personality Test 

I am primarily a *Choleric* ..but in conversation I can be as Enjoyable as any *Sanguine* -though every one of those weakness traits a Sanguine has irritates the crap out of me...I do not have any of those.. .of course my own weaknesses are pretty obnoxious -if I allow myself to get that unruly! ...and I hate when I see those in others...which makes sense. 

My husband works with a Choleric Boss..he is a nasty Mother...seems he allows his weaknesses to rule him.. but guess who his favorite employee is.. MY HUSBAND....the patient calm diplomatic *Phlegmatic* of course!

We are an opposite temperament match (very typical)... his strengths are my weaknesses and my strengths are His weakness...we are both secondary* Melancholy*..

The weaknesses I *don't *struggle with out of those 2 are ...I am flexible ..I can relax ..I've never been a Procrastinator...never been prone to depression ...or play a Martyr .... the rest...I've had my moments!...

I can be demanding, obsessive, impatient, argumentative, 0 empathy depending (Serial killer.. bring me the electric chair! Eye for an eye mentality lives in me in some areas)..

I can be moody -though he makes my days BRIGHT....and gets me to laugh at myself...I can be pessimistic, hard to please, I worry more about tragedy over anything else in life... 

But happily I can say.. I shine in all the strengths of those 2 temperaments....that's a plus...right!!


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## Created2Write

I mostly fit Meloncholic, though I'm not pessimistic, difficult to please, and I don't play the martyr. Although I fit into all of the others in some way.


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## I Notice The Details

Created2Write said:


> I mostly fit Meloncholic, though I'm not pessimistic, difficult to please, and I don't play the martyr. Although I fit into all of the others in some way.


I fit more in the Meloncholic box than the other 3. Not all descriptions fit, but most do.


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## SimplyAmorous

Created2Write said:


> I mostly fit Meloncholic, though I'm not pessimistic, *difficult to please*, and I don't play the martyr. Although I fit into all of the others in some way.


Honing in on this phrase... I admitted I can be "difficult to please".. I guess that means I can be particular in certain selected areas... depending.. those things that mean so much to me..personally..

For example...in relation to material things... new cars, a richer lifestyle... I don't expect much here at all... I am surely easier to please over the majority ....then in another unrelated area...I may have "higher expectations" over the next woman.. (none of this matters if our husbands feel the same.. of course).. 

I think *"high expectations"* is a better description over "difficult to please"

There is a difference there, one sounds whiny / never satisfied /ungrateful even.....the other just holds to a certain standard -in what is important to us....as best we can...


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## FeministInPink

Faithful Wife said:


> My bff grew up with a mother who told her explicitly:
> 
> You're not cute.
> You're not pretty.
> If someone pays you a compliment they are just being nice, so don't let it go to your head.
> 
> 
> sigh...that really did a number on her. She honestly believes NO compliment about her, not even ones that are obvious and not about being "cute"...like "good job at work", she still thinks does not reflect her it just reflects a person "trying to be nice". So she believes the motives behind any compliment to anyone that anyone makes are them just "trying to be nice".
> 
> So she will accept the compliment by saying "how nice of you!" which is at least sincere on her part...but it also means she rejects what they actually said to her.
> 
> I've stopped giving her compliments because I know she just thinks I'm being nice...it is really really sad actually. Especially since (thanks to her mother) she thinks being humble is far more important and "worthy" than being anything else. To them, being humble means to truly believe "I'm nothing, I'm no one, don't pay me any attention and I will just muddle along and do my thing". sigh....


I know this comment is almost two weeks old, but I had to respond. My mother did the exact same thing to me, and it so completely f*cked me up. I'm finally, at the age of 34, recognizing this, and the rest of the colossal damage she inflicted on me, and I'm working on healing, thanks in large part to TAM and members like you and your comments. So thanks for posting this.


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## Faithful Wife

I hope you do work on it, Fem! I can only imagine the damage inflicted upon my friend by the way her mother raised her...to not believe anyone who is giving a sincere compliment? To never believe any nice thing someone says about you? If that describes you, yes please do what ever you can to get rid of that idea...it is very sad. Especially to think of her as a child, never believing any nice thing said about her.


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## FeministInPink

Faithful Wife said:


> I hope you do work on it, Fem! I can only imagine the damage inflicted upon my friend by the way her mother raised her...to not believe anyone who is giving a sincere compliment? To never believe any nice thing someone says about you? If that describes you, yes please do what ever you can to get rid of that idea...it is very sad. Especially to think of her as a child, never believing any nice thing said about her.


I'm working on it! Funny enough, I've stumbled upon a new friend in my post-divorce life who has been very generous/vocal with his 
compliments. He's made it clear that he's not interested in me romantically; he just says what's on his mind, and he's very genuine. Having a friend like that in my life has been really helpful.


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## I Notice The Details

FeministInPink said:


> ... Funny enough, I've stumbled upon a new friend in my post-divorce life who has been very generous/vocal with his
> compliments. He's made it clear that he's not interested in me romantically; he just says what's on his mind, and he's very genuine. Having a friend like that in my life has been really helpful.



So...when did I meet you?  

You just described me to a "T". I am generous with my compliments and very genuine. I say what is on my mind daily. It is awesome that you recognized this as helpful from your friend. That is very cool of you to make that observation and to post this! :smthumbup:


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## FeministInPink

I Notice The Details said:


> So...when did I meet you?
> 
> You just described me to a "T". I am generous with my compliments and very genuine. I say what is on my mind daily. *It is awesome that you recognized this as helpful from your friend.* That is very cool of you to make that observation and to post this! :smthumbup:


Ha ha, you're funny 

This is something I'm working on, Details. I'm becoming more observant of others' behavior, more cognizant of their intentions with their behavior, and more aware of how it affects me/my reaction. This entire divorce and post-divorce process and self-exploration has been eye-opening, and I'm hoping it will allow me to bring more positive people - like you! - into my life.


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## lucyloo

Faithful Wife said:


> So on another thread, Dvls was telling us his view that men should not compliment women (and Dvls can make this more clear from his own POV if he wants to, as I'm not sure what all he meant).
> 
> But for the most part, women love compliments, or that has been my experience.
> 
> Women tend to compliment each other a lot, too.
> 
> I think a compliment that has a covert contract attached to it is what Dvls is saying is bad, and I'd agree. If you are complimenting someone to try to gain their favor or for any other reason than simply noting something complimentary and saying it, I think women resent it.
> 
> Like I have a gf who really wants constant praise and compliments, and she also gives constant praise and compliments...but when you get one from her you know this is just "her thing" and the compliments may or may not be all that real. She really just wants you to shower her with compliments so you aren't sure if she means it when she compliments you.
> 
> But most of my female friends really like getting sincere compliments and are able to give sincere ones.
> 
> Your thoughts?


I give compliments to family, friends, coworkers, clients....and most often strangers. There really is nothing nicer you can do to brighten someone's day by giving them a genuine compliment. 

I do it simply to make someone feel better, or to brighten their day. What I get out of it is knowing I made their day just slightly better...knowing they probably wouldn't have heard it otherwise. 

Spreading love and kindness is a simple random act of kindness that is easy to do and something I aim to do on a daily basis!


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## FeministInPink

lucyloo said:


> I give compliments to family, friends, coworkers, clients....and most often strangers. There really is nothing nicer you can do to brighten someone's day by giving them a genuine compliment.
> 
> I do it simply to make someone feel better, or to brighten their day. What I get out of it is knowing I made their day just slightly better...knowing they probably wouldn't have heard it otherwise.
> 
> Spreading love and kindness is a simple random act of kindness that is easy to do and something I aim to do on a daily basis!


 I do this, too... I like the fact that I'm brightening someone's day the most. That makes me happy, too


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## Personal

When I give compliments it is most often although not always to people I know, likewise when I receive compliments it is usually most often although not always from people I know. One thing I don't do is offer compliments to anyone unless I feel it is genuinely warranted. I don't pay compliments because of a sense of sympathy or empathy or to make someone smile. If I don't think it's true you simply aren't going to be offered a compliment.

Having said that I don't think men or women should be reticent with complimenting one another whether they be lovers, friends and acquaintances etc. Naturally with all the usual cavaets of time, place, appropriateness and that thing in the air that you can sense if it is right to proffer the compliment or not to.

Although this goes back a bit in this thread I can't help but comment in response to DvlsAdvc8 (hello to you by the way).



DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Others agree with you so... what? I go out with my gf almost every weekend. The women aren't approaching the guys. Before I met my gf and I was one of the single guys, the women weren't approaching the guys. Women approaching men is comparatively rare relative to men's approaches of women. It is not common, and on any given night, if I gave you $100 for every female approach and you gave me $10 for every male approach, I'd end the night with a healthy profit.
> 
> Most women prefer to be approached, not to do the approaching. Its been surveyed a hundred times, its even been born out by a poll here before.
> 
> In spite of all that, you want to insist that its common for women to approach? I'd also love to know the basis for thinking men are more attracted to women with a bunch of other boyfriends.


I can't argue how common it is for women to approach a man since I have no measure to make such a claim. I also don't think your experience is wrong at all, I have no doubt it is what you have experienced personally and likewise seen in others as well.

That said, in my experience it is very common for women to approach the man. It happens quite readily and is the most normal thing. Women have always approached me and asked me out, it's something that just happens. It's hard to put it in words and it's not about being a particular physique. I'm just under 5'4" tall yet their has always been interest from short and tall women alike. This even happened often with girls my age when I was in High School.

At first I though it happened only because I looked okay and was quite fit, yet even today when I am no longer fit and youth has waned it still happens. The only difference is now when I get the looks and smiles (you end up smiling as well) and the rest that follows. Often my first reaction is why is she smiling at me, surely there's someone behind me or there's something wrong with my head that is amusing? Yet she's interested in you, just like it's always happened.

Please don't think I am saying every woman or most women notice me and then approach me. That isn't the case I am just saying it happens often and is normal in my experience.

You also feel it as well, you can be across the room or a street and you can't help but notice a tingle that even has a sort of sound and colour to it that you feel when those particular women notice you as you also notice them. It kind of feels like for want of a better description, as though there's electricity between you both even though you have never met.

When I was single that would usually end in talking and then more. Whereas now since I am married to the beautiful woman I love (who asked me out at work) many years ago. It doesn't go anywhere since I'm not available. Not that I have a problem with open relationships or any other consenting adult relationship. Im happy being with my wife.

My best male friend from High School also draws women towards him and still does even though he's worn like me, it's well worth observing him when he's out, just to see how women interact with him.

Best.


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## heartsbeating

I felt this was the appropriate thread for posting this moment of curiosity. I'll admit to feeling silly even wondering this but when you receive a compliment and/or get hit-on, do you tell your husband (or wife) and why or why not?

I have a specific reason for asking. Out with friend this weekend at a wine tasting and I got hit-on. Friend and I were just having a great time together when dude came over and said I had the most beautiful smile and asked of my relationship status. I told him I was married. There was a lighthearted exchange before he respectfully backed off and left us alone. Afterwards, my friend was surprised at his boldness and said she wouldn't have been able to approach someone like that when she was single. Then we moved on to the next wine to try.

When I got home, hubs was asking how the day was and amongst other details, I blurted out, "oh and I got hit-on.." Despite him taking it with good humor, I'm wondering if it's actually poor form on my part to blurt that out to him?


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## rush

My wife has been hit on at grocery store and the bars, she just giggles ans actually I think she likes it. Me? I am kind of on my guard yes.


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