# Ohhhh this is complicated



## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Ok. I will try to make this short. At least as short and sweet as possible. My DH and I have been married 9 years. We have a toddler. We are Catholic -- I have dealt with A LOT because of Catholic guilt. 

This is the latest outline. I found out my DH was addicted to porn. He went to 3 therapy appts and then stopped. He has been financially erratic. We are in debt. I recently got sued in a real estate deal -- even though it wasn't our fault. He did not join me at the mediation for the suit. He said he would watch our son while I went. It left me to make all the decisions. I got a good settlement -- but spent 9 long hours trying to reach that deal. He was mad we had to pay anything -- so he asked me to file bankruptcy! I said NO - he said it would be the best way to start over and keep all of our income. I am the breadwinner.

In the process of fulfilling my legal agreement.....I asked him to deposit a check for me. He neglected to tell me that they put a hold on the funds. The check bounced and the judgement was placed on me -- because that meant I did not fulfill the legal agreement. He again begged me to file bankruptcy. 

Now I have a 100k judgement on my head -- because my DH decided to flippantly deposit a 10k check in the ATM...and not tell me about a hold. He seemed to care less...he just keeps telling me to file bankruptcy.

I think I may file divorce instead...I can't get over how unrealisitc he is acting!!! What would you do if your DH made a stupid mistake that cost you 100k...and told you to file for bankruptcy...on your own?

Thanks for reading this...


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Bump... Please...





whatdoido said:


> Ok. I will try to make this short. At least as short and sweet as possible. My DH and I have been married 9 years. We have a toddler. We are Catholic -- I have dealt with A LOT because of Catholic guilt.
> 
> This is the latest outline. I found out my DH was addicted to porn. He went to 3 therapy appts and then stopped. He has been financially erratic. We are in debt. I recently got sued in a real estate deal -- even though it wasn't our fault. He did not join me at the mediation for the suit. He said he would watch our son while I went. It left me to make all the decisions. I got a good settlement -- but spent 9 long hours trying to reach that deal. He was mad we had to pay anything -- so he asked me to file bankruptcy! I said NO - he said it would be the best way to start over and keep all of our income. I am the breadwinner.
> 
> ...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I just wanted you to know that I've read your post and I know you are anxious for a reply, but I'm going to think and pray about it first, okay? So I'm here--just considering. And I'm so sorry to hear about this. It sounds like he's hurt you to the core.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you and your son would be better off without him. Not a great role model for your boy.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate your insight. I am really struggling. It's killing me. 
I am just so concerned about my son. My DH saw me come home from that mediation in tears. It was 
just awful. He fully KNEW that this decision was vital to our survival. He just couldn't seem to realize that he 
had to be extra careful with this situation. 

This 100k mistake is on my head only. It's in my name only ... He never went to one appt with the attorney...
He is suggesting I file for bankruptcy alone.. This week is talking about trading his car for a new car... So he could "help out"
by reducing his car payment. He plans to take a 72 month loan to do so...

So he wants ME to file bankruptcy and he is going to get a new car. 

I just don't know how he could think any of this is reasonable. My therapist suggested I talk to a 
divorce attorney... So I can at least understand my financial obligations...

We don't own anything... We have debt. Most in my name. I really am in shock... 


QUOTE=turnera;123387]I think you and your son would be better off without him. Not a great role model for your boy.[/QUOTE]
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

DEFINITELY go to an attorney this week. You can get free consultations at most of them. You need to know what your rights are, because all he does is keep pushing your buttons, and you don't know enough to fight back. It will be worth paying an attorney to protect the rest of your life.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes you could say that! He went this morning to buy me flowers and coffee. I asked why? He said no reason... You are just the most beautiful person for putting up with my crap. 
I guess he is turning on the charm again...

This is his game... He reels me right back in. 



turnera said:


> DEFINITELY go to an attorney this week. You can get free consultations at most of them. You need to know what your rights are, because all he does is keep pushing your buttons, and you don't know enough to fight back. It will be worth paying an attorney to protect the rest of your life.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Now that you are considering leaving him, you have the control. You can now tell him under which conditions you would be willing to stay with him. They may include handing over your finances to an accountant, no new cars for the next 3 calendar years, you install a keylogger so that you will always know if he goes to porn again...things like that. If he breaks ANY of them, you tell him you will walk.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you so much for your response. I really appreciate it. These latest issues come on the heels of many other marital problems. I'm just so tired of all of his drama. No one is perfect, certainly i'm not. But, his behavior is extreme. For example, 6 months ago I chose to TRY AGAIN and "start fresh" after a series of disagreements that began with his "date night" dinner conversation asking me to get bigger breast implants. Just after our son was born, I got them for him -- now he says he wants them bigger. He even went on to explain how excited he was to get out of debt THEN so we could pay for this latest surgery. Talk about making me feel self conscious. 

Then...a few months later -- I realize he is looking at porn nightly -- no wonder he wants me to have bigger breasts. He wants me to look like a porn star. Well, he certainly has never made THAT mistake again...but we are on to others....like his suggestion that I (breadwinner) file for bankruptcy -- since he doesn't want to deal with a real estate lawsuit. 

It's a trend -- he never wants to stand up and take charge. Never. From finances....to general survival. We have a son -- it's winter...and the heat went out in our house. I kept playing with the thermostat and trying to get it running. I asked him to look at it. He finally did, before leaving for work. After he left, I texted him and said "what about the heat?" He called and said "I don't know what to tell you...,it's not working". He said "you'd better call for repair". 

What am I supposed to think? The man who I married loves to cook and clean.....obsessively. He is a great help in that area...but what about when I really need him?? 
He has corrected some small things...he doesn't suggest plastic surgery anymore...he talks about saving money.. he watches Dave Ramsey.... but then tells me he will try to "help out" by buying a new car over 6 years...to drop the car payment in half. We are probably 10 months from paying off his current vehicle. He just doesn' get it....... 

What would you do? Am I too critical? I am certainly hurt.....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You already know what to do. Take care of yourself and your son. 

IF your H wants to grow up and learn responsibility, he can do it from his OWN apartment, which he will have to pay for with his OWN paycheck. 

Maybe after a couple years of reality, he will grow up and realize what a child he has been. ONLY then, IMO, will he be worth reconciling with. If you don't stand up for you and your son now, he will NEVER change.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

But how can I be sure... Leaving my DH won't make life worse for our son? 
Maybe I should do a better job of protecting him from all of it... I feel I do a decent job now.
What would be different? Sure I wouldn't be exposed to his negativity 
and stupidity... But if I split finances... Would it be better for our son? 

I will sacrifice myself for our son... But I will admit I am growing increasingly bitter
and sad. I just feel like our son will be ruined...




turnera said:


> You already know what to do. Take care of yourself and your son.
> 
> IF your H wants to grow up and learn responsibility, he can do it from his OWN apartment, which he will have to pay for with his OWN paycheck.
> 
> Maybe after a couple years of reality, he will grow up and realize what a child he has been. ONLY then, IMO, will he be worth reconciling with. If you don't stand up for you and your son now, he will NEVER change.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's a book called The Dance of Anger. Not what it sounds like. It's about learning how to set boundaries, so that you are not a constant Giver and everyone takes advantage of you. VERY helpful. You can get it at the library. Start there. See if you recognize yourself in its pages.

You don't have to leave him today. But you should start setting healthy boundaries for what you will accept in a marriage. That doesn't mean you are changing him; you can't. It means that you are telling him what you will ACCEPT in any marriage in which you participate. 

If he chooses to abide by your boundaries, great. If not, you give him his walking papers. It really is that simple. You just have to decide what your boundaries ARE.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Great advice... Thank you...do you think it's unrealistic of me 
to install a key logger and kick him out if I find him on porn again?

I say this because he says he is cured... And even stopped going to therapy .."in his effort to save money".
Which of course is BS. My therapist advised I don't even ask about his therapy... Because I begged and begged and
it's now his choice to honor my request. 

I can't tell you how long I've begged for him to go to counseling. He was "cured" of a porn "compulsion" in 3 sessions. Miraculous, isn't it?

I also saw him talking about how hot some celebrity woman was on his facebook page... And I told him enough! He apologized.
Then some other woman was posting and calling him by a petname. He said it was harmless. He them started emailing another married friend of his/ours..
Saying how great it was "to see her smile again and that no matter what he always sees her smiling... That she was such an inspiration". Gag. 

So I confronted him. He said it was harmless but that he would shut down his page to save our marriage. He didn't. He DID stop posting but still emails and chats with people...
When I called him on it... He said "I don't remember promising THAT". 

I just think ... If I catch him on porn... I'm done... He will have lied again... 



QUOTE=turnera;123988]There's a book called The Dance of Anger. Not what it sounds like. It's about learning how to set boundaries, so that you are not a constant Giver and everyone takes advantage of you. VERY helpful. You can get it at the library. Start there. See if you recognize yourself in its pages.

You don't have to leave him today. But you should start setting healthy boundaries for what you will accept in a marriage. That doesn't mean you are changing him; you can't. It means that you are telling him what you will ACCEPT in any marriage in which you participate. 

If he chooses to abide by your boundaries, great. If not, you give him his walking papers. It really is that simple. You just have to decide what your boundaries ARE.[/QUOTE]
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Basically, IIWY, I would say "These are my boundaries to remain married to you. If I find out that you have overstepped any of them, you are no longer welcome in this house, and I will get an attorney to ensure you leave.
A. fill in
B. fill in
C. fill in"

Hand it to him in writing. Tell him you are not telling him to change - you are telling him what YOU will accept in YOUR marriage. If he doesn't want to be in THAT marriage, he is free to leave. But the minute you find out he is not providing the marriage partner you want and need, you will leave him.

Make sure it's in writing.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes I agree with you. The problem is I don't even know how to create the list! He makes stupid mistakes. How do I prepare for that. The porn is tangible... But how would I list off something as ridiculous as a 100k mistake? Or the facebook bologna? How do I create limits on something he will say "he forgot" or "oh I didn't realize". Or "I don't ever remember saying that". He begged me to sue my own mother for inheritance... And I told him that the lawyer said it wasn't possible.. Just to get him off my back. How do I create a list for things that seem to be beyond my imagination? That is... Until they happen. That's how he gets by with so much...I'm just awestruck by the things that transpire...


QUOTE=turnera;124041]Basically, IIWY, I would say "These are my boundaries to remain married to you. If I find out that you have overstepped any of them, you are no longer welcome in this house, and I will get an attorney to ensure you leave.
A. fill in
B. fill in
C. fill in"

Hand it to him in writing. Tell him you are not telling him to change - you are telling him what YOU will accept in YOUR marriage. If he doesn't want to be in THAT marriage, he is free to leave. But the minute you find out he is not providing the marriage partner you want and need, you will leave him.

Make sure it's in writing.[/QUOTE]
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## rick_bachman (Jan 27, 2010)

This is an interesting thread. 

So what happened to the $100k judgement? Is that still in effect or did it already go through and you have to make monthly payments? That seems pretty extreme for a bounced $10,000 check...

Is there a particular reason why he wants you to declare bankruptcy? I mean it doesn't reset you back to 0 like it used to and those bankruptcy's are difficult to get given the recent changes in the laws. Maybe he just has the wrong idea about bankruptcy.

A keylogger is not extreme considering the number of times he hasn't changed, and how he hung you out to dry.

How are your finances together? Do you share a joint account and go over a budget that you share together? How much more money do you bring in over him - since you're the breadwinner? I think you can make it through this without getting a divorce, but it does require him to make some effort to show that he wants to be in this relationship, and share in the decisions of the family. (I know I have gotten burned a few times because I did not consult the wife on my decisions)


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Thanks for your response. I make 4 times what my husband earns... Pretty much all the debt is in my name. Even the wedding ring he finally bought me 5 months ago... Went on credit..in my name. He said he "was too scared". He filed bankruptcy alone about 5 years ago after running up his cards. 

I pretty much handle the bills now. Therapy is helping me get strength. Today I told him that I felt he should not buy a new car and we should pay off the current one. He stalled and said, but i don't like it". I'm just going to watch and see... He knows my wishes and I'm sure he won't listen to me. 

I am now making monthly payments on the judgement. It was extreme because we failed to honor the agreement Zthat we reached in mediation. Because of that, they filed the judgement on me. 

And you are right... He wants me to file because he doesn't understand how much our living expenses would be reduced in a chapter 13. His weekly steak dinner wouldn't fly with the bottle of wine...

He is big on Dave Ramsey. I wanted to give that a shot... But a day after preaching it... He is begging to buy a new car. I don't know how to get it all through
his thick skull. 

7 months ago he lied to me and told me he wouldn't ask his parents (sick and working elderly) for an early inheritance. He did... Behind my back and spent all 15k in a month. He paid off some of his credit ... Bought furniture... And told me "I didn't understand".... When I told him I thought it was wrong to take that money from them. 

He cuts coupons... Brings a lunch to work... Tells everyone he is a cheAp sob. Truth is... He is with everyone... Except himself. 


QUOTE=rick_bachman;124142]This is an interesting thread. 

So what happened to the $100k judgement? Is that still in effect or did it already go through and you have to make monthly payments? That seems pretty extreme for a bounced $10,000 check...

Is there a particular reason why he wants you to declare bankruptcy? I mean it doesn't reset you back to 0 like it used to and those bankruptcy's are difficult to get given the recent changes in the laws. Maybe he just has the wrong idea 
How are your finances together? Do you share a joint account and go over a budget that you share together? How much more money do you bring in over him - since you're the breadwinner? I think you can make it through this without getting a divorce, but it does require him to make some effort to show that he wants to be in this relationship, and share in the decisions of the family. (I know I have gotten burned a few times because I did not consult the wife on my decisions)[/QUOTE]




QUOTE=rick_bachman;124142]This is an interesting thread. 

So what happened to the $100k judgement? Is that still in effect or did it already go through and you have to make monthly payments? That seems pretty extreme for a bounced $10,000 check...

Is there a particular reason why he wants you to declare bankruptcy? I mean it doesn't reset you back to 0 like it used to and those bankruptcy's are difficult to get given the recent changes in the laws. Maybe he just has the wrong idea about bankruptcy.

A keylogger is not extreme considering the number of times he hasn't changed, and how he hung you out to dry.

How are your finances together? Do you share a joint account and go over a budget that you share together? How much more money do you bring in over him - since you're the breadwinner? I think you can make it through this without getting a divorce, but it does require him to make some effort to show that he wants to be in this relationship, and share in the decisions of the family. (I know I have gotten burned a few times because I did not consult the wife on my decisions)[/QUOTE]
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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I have an update... I asked my DH to resume counseling... He said I should call HIS therapist and ask her questions if I have any pertaining to him... He will not resume counseling. 
I suggested we split our bills and finances so we each follow our own budget. He called it a terrible idea. He said that since all of our credit was separate... We don't need to. 
I then mentioned that I was unhappy he made me get credit in my own name for my wedding ring...(8 years later) and he said it was because I chose the wrong one. HE picked it out!!! He said I shouldn't have accepted it... If I didn't want to pay for it...

What do I do with this man??? The arrogance!!!
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Leave him.

Why do you accept this treatment? Do you think you can't find someone who will respect you?

You can.

Look. He KNOWS you're a doormat. He KNOWS you'll hang on for 20, 30, 50 years because you have no self-esteem and think no one else will take you, so why should he even bother wasting time thinking about you and what you want? 

You're there for easy, free sex and all the money he wants...why should he change?


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Boy! That was well said... And unbelievably accurate. Thank you. 
It's heart breaking... This is awful. I will have to move our son to a more 
affordable home (he's moved so many times already because we always lease homes)
I feel for that boy.... But by God my DH is out of control. Now he's texting and
saying he's sorry, "he shouldn't have said anything, just wanted me to be happy". 
He knows he's blown it now! I guess divorce is the only remedy.
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not necessarily. But YOU need to set REALLY HIGH standards for yourself.

Write them out. 

I need a husband who will:
Pay half the bills.
Not add any debt.
Do half of the housework if we both work, 95% of the housework if he doesn't work.
Provide me with at least 5 hours a week 'us' time. 
One week of vacation per year.
Whatever else you would want in a 'real' marriage.

Make him plan out how he will achieve this. Don't let him just say 'I'll do it.' You have the power now, because you recognize this is not tolerable and you're willing to walk away. This time YOU get to say what it would take to accept him. Please don't let him just sweettalk you into caving. You may not have another chance to do this.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Nope, you are right. This has gone on FAR too long. It's time for him to get the message. I'm going to kick him out. I have to figure out childcare first. But, he's got to go. He needs to really understand the ramifications. He can't refuse counseling if he really wants to be in this marriage. He can't. He's done it for YEARS -- and I thought he was finally seeing the light. That only lasted a month. 

He actually does so much housework it's not even funny. He's very anal retentive. His problem is just that he cares more about cleaning and laundry than he does his son or his wife.

He also needs to understand that his 100k mistake is grounds for splitting up the finances. I unfortunately never talk to him like...I'm typing right now...but I am going to.

I mean...this is the DH who doesn't even try to fix the heat or call for repair..for his wife and child? DOES ANYONE else think that is even remotely ok? I have to ask what happened and his response was..."I don't know what to tell you...you'd better call for repair?" Come on!

Does he care at all about anything? 

I'm sorry -- I'm just so crushed and tired of the many years of emotional abuse. It's just done. it's done. I may end up spending the rest of my life alone...but I guess it's time...to just understand this is ridiculous. 

Thanks for listening to me.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Oh I'm sorry it's taken so long to get back to you. I hope you will forgive me. 

Overall I agree with tunera (I usually do) and I actually have a little twist that I think might be helpful. You say that you have no idea how to start "the list" and I have a way to make it rather clearer for you. 

Usually if a person recognizes they have an issue and they're willing to actually work on it...for real...they don't delay and delay and delay. When someone WANTS to work on their issues, they do it. Thus I suggest that you try to see if you can whittle this down to two or three "main topics" and I can give you some suggestions: 

1) a MAJOR personal issue with financial responsibility

2) a MAJOR personal issue with being wholly faithful, transparent and trustworthy

Just so you know, whatever issues you identify are the Love Extinguishers in your relationship. Anyway, I would approach him with those two or three items (or the main categories you come up with) and say: "I see these enormous issues in your life that are tearing our marriage apart. I would like to keep our marriage but I know I can not make you change. What are you willing to do today or tomorrow to address these issues to protect me, our son, and our family from your financial irresponsibility and from your lack of transparent faithfulness?" Then let him tell you what he is willing to do. 

If he says he doesn't see them as issues and he is willing to do nothing, then he's not willing to change, and it is time to separate. I would suggest separating, doing a legal separation to be sure it is clear what debts are what (to protect yourself cuz he's likely to run up a BUNCH more and you'd get stuck with it ), and begin working on yourself and working your way out from under it. 

He's may very well beg you to come back and say "I'm trying" or "I mean it this time" but here's what it looks like when he means it: HE will come to YOU and admit he did have an issue and what you did to protect yourself made sense. He will arrange for counseling on his own and figure a way to get himself there (without you reminding him or doing it for him). He will begin to live in a way that helps you pay off the financial burden he created. He will voluntarily give you access to all FB, email, chats etc. and his actions will match his promises. After he has lived like that on his own for about 6 months to a year, without your help--he means it! Otherwise he's just trying to get you back into the same old cycle and nothing has changed. 

I very, very rarely advise people to divorce. In this instance though it would look like you may be heading to legal separation at least. I pray that he will come to his senses and do the work to better himself.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you soooo much for this wonderful advice...you both have been so kind to me. 

I talked to my DH tonight and he is now saying I made him feel stupid...blah blah. If I stand up to him...I'm "attacking him" ...so he hung up on me. His response about the wedding ring is "he chose the wrong words, and he's sorry." 

He is now asking to look at putting together a budget so we can determine if we can afford couples counseling. I wanted to laugh out loud, because this morning he was shopping for a new car...and tonight, he's not sure if we could afford counseling. (We have insurance). 

I am going to go visit an attorney this week and then tell him to leave. He needs to understand that I'm done being the "doormat". I will create that lists...but I believe it will be for my future...not my current reality. My DH has FINALLY crossed the line for me. 

In my own therapy, I kept wondering what it was going to take for me to get mad enough. I just continue to take this behavior, and pray he changes....but he's been clear...about the outcome. It's been YEARS!


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I have a few questions for you as I try to make an "action plan". 
I'm getting scared (as I always do). My DH is soooo sorry, but he refuses to get help.
I have told him that ..for us to work... We both need to be in therapy, take financial education classes,
and (thru therapy) find better ways to communicate our problems. 

He never "agreed" to any of that... But said he would think about it. Instead, he says he has been reading the
Bible. (guilt trip). I figured I would test him a bit and ask him to help me run errands. (my therapist says I do too much)
I found out the hard way "he forgot". Well, I didn't freak out but I told him it was an example of the behavior that 
makes me feel very unimportant. Kind of like the check that "he forgot" had a hold on it...

I asked him... Now that he knows what I need ... If he plans on making "an action plan". His only offering
was that he would do a better job of writing things down... As a reminder of their importance. No therapy. No offering to go to credit 
counseling... Nothing. 

He did tell me... He's feeling more "stupid" these days and that he heard a discussion about the damage concussions can do... He is now
convinced that a concussion he suffered in high school... Is causing his marital problems. I nearly laughed. 
3 months ago... He told me his porn addiction was a result of PTSD that he acquired from an incident before he met me...

I now look at everything and think... He has no plans to improve himself. None.
I am so scared... But I think the only choice to force him to "feel" the impact... Is to kick him out. 






UOTE=whatdoido;124566]Thank you soooo much for this wonderful advice...you both have been so kind to me. 

I talked to my DH tonight and he is now saying I made him feel stupid...blah blah. If I stand up to him...I'm "attacking him" ...so he hung up on me. His response about the wedding ring is "he chose the wrong words, and he's sorry." 

He is now asking to look at putting together a budget so we can determine if we can afford couples counseling. I wanted to laugh out loud, because this morning he was shopping for a new car...and tonight, he's not sure if we could afford counseling. (We have insurance). 

I am going to go visit an attorney this week and then tell him to leave. He needs to understand that I'm done being the "doormat". I will create that lists...but I believe it will be for my future...not my current reality. My DH has FINALLY crossed the line for me. 

In my own therapy, I kept wondering what it was going to take for me to get mad enough. I just continue to take this behavior, and pray he changes....but he's been clear...about the outcome. It's been YEARS![/QUOTE]
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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

My DH is soooo sorry, but he refuses to get help.

When he says this kind of thing, don't let him get away with it! Call him out on it!

Say NO! What you say and what you do do NOT match. DO THIS - RIGHT NOW. If you don't, then get out.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I did tell him that... While I don't threaten him... This is what I need to continue...
He said "ok"...and then left for work. Because of our schedules we only see each other for 40 min a day. I'm already asleep by the time he gets home
from work ... I get up at 3 am for work. 

So... Actually having serious conversations is nearly impossible... So when
he left... I had thought he fully understood. But the next day all I heard was that he read the book of Job... And while our family hasn't
Been killed or he wasn't covered in boils... That he could understand what Job was going through...

COME ON! Persecution??? That is what my 
DH is implying... Right? 





QUOTE=turnera;125422]My DH is soooo sorry, but he refuses to get help.

When he says this kind of thing, don't let him get away with it! Call him out on it!

Say NO! What you say and what you do do NOT match. DO THIS - RIGHT NOW. If you don't, then get out.[/QUOTE]
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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

It is very easy to get caught up in the dynamics of repairing your broken relationship. Focus on doing A, B, and C, with the expectation that you will get a positive outcome.

However, what becomes equally important ... actually more important, is being able to take a step back and evaluate if what you are trying to repair can _ever_ have a positive outcome.

I hope you will forgive me for making some blanket assumptions about the nature of your relationship. They may be incorrect, but consider them as examples nonetheless.

Seems startlingly clear that you are the giver, and he is the taker. I don't get the impression that this dynamic is new. 
My mother's second marriage was to an addict - whom she believed she could fix. This was pretty much the foundation of their relationship. Problem being, this should never be a foundation for anything. He was a very likable, charming, SOB. He used, drained their finances, and stole when he needed to. At any given time, or in any situation, his behavior was always framed as "how can I make this best serve me." Even his marriage. My mother covered for him, provided him with the respectability of a home and family, money, and of course, someone to blame when things didn't go his way.

My point is, the relationship I describe above, and in my opinion, your relationship; is never going to have that positive outcome. You will occasionally get _the appearance of a positive outcome_, but it isn't genuine. It will be your partner hoping that he can do just enough, to get you off his back, and then slowly wear you back down into the dysfunction.

Let me sum up; this isn't the man of your dreams - at least I'm sure hoping not. You have demonstrated your devotion and good will without reciprocation for years. You make his life easy. He makes yours frustrating and unnecessarily difficult. Imagine if you were with someone even remotely like yourself. Imagine what that life looks like. Do you still want to stick around with this guy?

The paragraph above sums up my marriage and it's dissolution. I lived it too.

I sincerely hope that regardless of how you proceed, that you do so with the goal of settling for nothing less than what you need and deserve. My personal opinion? Your husband can't deliver either of those things.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow. I don't know what to say. You never see each other. How can you possibly maintain a marriage? Something is going to have to change, or you'll just be roommates. What can you do to change your situation?


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

We go on weekly dates... But that's not nearly enough. Now, I'm the breadwinner. I have told Dh that the scheduling is
killing us. I asked him to consider trying a new job... Going after his dreams... Whatever. He said "not yet".

So then I found out that HE could switch to my exact hours! I thought it would be perfect! I begged... But he said he gets more job satisfaction... 
In the shift that he works.. When I pressed it... He said he'd quit wwork and just stay home. The problem there is that our child is in school!!! We don't 
need childcare...

He doesn't seem to care...


OTE=turnera;125504]Wow. I don't know what to say. You never see each other. How can you possibly maintain a marriage? Something is going to have to change, or you'll just be roommates. What can you do to change your situation?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Then I guess the bottom line is, what are you willing to ACCEPT? He seems to know that, no matter what you SAY, all he has to do is say no, and you back down.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Well the "shift switch" is no longer possible because the company already flipped someone. Ideally, I'd like to demand that he find another job... But he will use the new judgement
as proof that we need every penny we can get. I think... He doesn't beat me... Or cheat on me... So is this money situation and "feeling out of love" enough to leave? I teeter back and forth..
Because of my catholic beliefs. I'm scared... But I wonder... What if I lost my job? He doesn't have ANY motivation to go back to school for a masters... Or even start his own business. 

He only offered to quit and "stay home" so I would be forced to say.. "no, don't do that!" kind of like the time I said we needed to reduce expenses... And he DEAD SERIOUS told me that he'd trade in his car for a scooter! Yeah... We had a 3 year old at that time. He said that our little one could ride it too...

He now apologizes for "not thinking that through"...

So can I ask him to find a job with better hours to be a husband and father? Right now, he sees our child 45 minutes a day. 





turnera said:


> Then I guess the bottom line is, what are you willing to ACCEPT? He seems to know that, no matter what you SAY, all he has to do is say no, and you back down.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If I were you, I would tell him what I would accept - that means what I would require from him. Men very easily push women to accept what the MAN is willing to do.

Call him out on it.

Tell him what YOU are willing to accept. Nothing less.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

whatdoido~

I hope you don't mind or think that I'm saying this to hurt you, but I'm going to be honest with you and it may sting. Are you ready?




...




What your husband is doing is classic verbal, mental and emotional abuse. *CLASSIC*! Take a peek at this page on Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse website called "Signs of Verbal and Emotional Abuse." Do you recognize... oh all of those signs? 

Please look at the top of the site at the *Verbal Abuse* pages and *The Victim* pages. On that site there is also help for *The Abuser*--so there is a place right online where he could admit HE has the problem and get some self-help in an at-home, anonymous setting. No one would ever even need to know; and I'm telling you if he will not do anonymous online self-help, he is not interested in changing and it won't happen. 

whatdoido, there is kind of a cycle to these things. First there is an Abuse where he does or says something abusive and you feel hurt by it (for example, "forgetting" about the hold on the check and putting you into debt for $100k). After that is Hearts and Flowers where he makes promises and will do ANYTHING to get you to re-engage in the old abusive dance. You resist but eventually have hope he means it, believe him, and re-engage. Next is Tension as you watch and hope that he'll follow through on his promises, and he doesn't (because he had no intention of doing so), and he feels the inner pressure mounting and has to vent it on someone. Finally, there is an Abuse again... on and on that cycle repeats over and over. 

I would strongly suggest that you closely read all the pages under Verbal Abuse and begin to learn what it is and even see if you can start to see examples of it in your relationship. Also, bear this in mind: you are the one who is here, not him, so we want to keep our focus on you and what you do to participate in this dance...see if we can change the dance steps. He may be the one "leading" in the dance, but you're dancing too (backwards in high heels ) and you are here willing to learn, grow and do better. So don't fall into the "He needs to do XYZ or change ABC" trap. You can't make him change. But you *CAN* change you and how you respond to it and handle it. 

So okay? You have homework. Look at Dr. Irene's site, read, and learn. Another great resource (if you are a reader) is "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverly Engel. If it's easier for you to get/order a book and read it, that would be a great start. 

Whatdoido, I realize that he may not call you names and scream and whatnot--but what he's doing is definitely, 100% abusive mentally and emotionally. I am a nouthetic, Christian marriage coach and it is an extremely rare thing for me to tell someone to divorce or end their marriage. But I can tell you that in this situation, reading the Bible (Job) and telling you to submit is not going to fix this marriage. If he were to admit that *HE* has an abuse problem on his own (and stop blaming a concussion from decades ago--that is virtually :rofl: laughable) and read The Abuser pages on Dr. Irene...that would be promising. Otherwise, if he is utterly unwilling to even do the anonymous self-help or admit he is causing a bunch of this, I would absolutely advise you to separate from him until he is willing and able to do the counseling he needs and demonstrate to your for at least a year that he has already changed. (NOTE: Not, "he is changing or in the process of changing"...nope! One year after he has already demonstrated being different.)


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Oh my gosh. My therapist has suggested that he is verbally abusive before... But I've never
seen a checklist like that. Nearly all the questions... Pertained to my situation. He definitely fits the mold.
I guess I'm wondering now... How to bring it up with him. I truly want to see how he reacts, because If he ignores it
like everything else... I will feel much better about my decision. 

I'm really scared to admit that this has gone on FAR too long. I found out last night that he has been telling
people at my work place (we work same place/different schedules) that I am unhappy with the job and that
I may want to leave. He shared this info freely with people and now I could be eliminated in the next round of job cuts.
I DO know that this is just his normal (negative) disposition. But I have warned him about involving me! 

How do I fix this? Now I may be facing job loss!!! 




QUOTE=Affaircare;125531]whatdoido~

I hope you don't mind or think that I'm saying this to hurt you, but I'm going to be honest with you and it may sting. Are you ready?




...




What your husband is doing is classic verbal, mental and emotional abuse. *CLASSIC*! Take a peek at this page on Dr. Irene's Verbal Abuse website called "Signs of Verbal and Emotional Abuse." Do you recognize... oh all of those signs? 

Please look at the top of the site at the *Verbal Abuse* pages and *The Victim* pages. On that site there is also help for *The Abuser*--so there is a place right online where he could admit HE has the problem and get some self-help in an at-home, anonymous setting. No one would ever even need to know; and I'm telling you if he will not do anonymous online self-help, he is not interested in changing and it won't happen. 

whatdoido, there is kind of a cycle to these things. First there is an Abuse where he does or says something abusive and you feel hurt by it (for example, "forgetting" about the hold on the check and putting you into debt for $100k). After that is Hearts and Flowers where he makes promises and will do ANYTHING to get you to re-engage in the old abusive dance. You resist but eventually have hope he means it, believe him, and re-engage. Next is Tension as you watch and hope that he'll follow through on his promises, and he doesn't (because he had no intention of doing so), and he feels the inner pressure mounting and has to vent it on someone. Finally, there is an Abuse again... on and on that cycle repeats over and over. 

I would strongly suggest that you closely read all the pages under Verbal Abuse and begin to learn what it is and even see if you can start to see examples of it in your relationship. Also, bear this in mind: you are the one who is here, not him, so we want to keep our focus on you and what you do to participate in this dance...see if we can change the dance steps. He may be the one "leading" in the dance, but you're dancing too (backwards in high heels ) and you are here willing to learn, grow and do better. So don't fall into the "He needs to do XYZ or change ABC" trap. You can't make him change. But you *CAN* change you and how you respond to it and handle it. 

So okay? You have homework. Look at Dr. Irene's site, read, and learn. Another great resource (if you are a reader) is "The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverly Engel. If it's easier for you to get/order a book and read it, that would be a great start. 

Whatdoido, I realize that he may not call you names and scream and whatnot--but what he's doing is definitely, 100% abusive mentally and emotionally. I am a nouthetic, Christian marriage coach and it is an extremely rare thing for me to tell someone to divorce or end their marriage. But I can tell you that in this situation, reading the Bible (Job) and telling you to submit is not going to fix this marriage. If he were to admit that *HE* has an abuse problem on his own (and stop blaming a concussion from decades ago--that is virtually :rofl: laughable) and read The Abuser pages on Dr. Irene...that would be promising. Otherwise, if he is utterly unwilling to even do the anonymous self-help or admit he is causing a bunch of this, I would absolutely advise you to separate from him until he is willing and able to do the counseling he needs and demonstrate to your for at least a year that he has already changed. (NOTE: Not, "he is changing or in the process of changing"...nope! One year after he has already demonstrated being different.)[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, that changes everything. Read up some more on abuse so you'll know how to deal with it. Line up a nearby woman's shelter. Start putting money away that he can't access. Keep your keys in your pocket and spare clothes in your car.

Then decide what to do. When you start changing things, he may exhibit 'change back!' behavior to try to get you to be like you used to - controllable. So be careful; things may escalate.

The first thing you should do is decide your boundaries. What you'll accept, and what you'll do if he doesn't honor your boundaries.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Oh no I didn't mean to imply that my DH is physically abusive. He squeezed my arm years ago.... But I don't think he would ever turn violent.... He is just verbally abusive ... At times. 



that changes everything. Read up some more on abuse so you'll know how to deal with it. Line up a nearby woman's shelter. Start puttingl
your boundaries. What you'll accept, and what you'll do if he doesn't honor your boundaries.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I didn't think he was physically abusive. I meant that, when you pull back and no longer go along with what HE wants, you have no idea if he WILL move on to physical abuse. Most mental abusers stay that way because it WORKS. If you become smarter than that, and pull away, he may change. That's all I meant.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Excellent point. Thank you. 2 years ago I told him that we should seperate... And 
he threatened suicide. He didn't say it... But researched it on the computer we both use...

He screamed and yelled... And told our child that "mommy didn't love daddy anymore".... 

And the suicide threat... Actually led me right back to him... Because I felt guilty. 




QUOTE=turnera;125764]I didn't think he was physically abusive. I meant that, when you pull back and no longer go along with what HE wants, you have no idea if he WILL move on to physical abuse. Most mental abusers stay that way because it WORKS. If you become smarter than that, and pull away, he may change. That's all I meant.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's an awesome book called Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, by Bancroft. I urge you to read it before you do anything.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Whatdoido~

You actually have a couple of questions there so let's take them one at a time, okay?



> I guess I'm wondering now... How to bring it up with him. I truly want to see how he reacts, because If he ignores it
> like everything else... I will feel much better about my decision. ... I'm really scared to admit that this has gone on FAR too long.


I will admit to you that this was one of the hardest things for me to recognize myself. I kept thinking either "Oh it couldn't be that" or "Oh it's not that bad that it's abusive really." But then I realized something. He didn't talk to his friends that way, or his boss. He didn't act dismissive to them or "forget" things that were vitally important to them...just me. That meant he could control it at some level at least, and that to some degree he was doing it on purpose! I couldn't believe it! 

When/if you bring it up to him, he is about 99% likely to avoid it, deny it, pretend *he's* not that way, or deflect it by blaming you somehow. I mean think about it--if I came to you and said, "Oh hey, whatdoido, I think you might be abusive" wouldn't your gut reaction be something like "No I'm not!" (it's just a natural reaction ). So just know that it's really, really unlikely he'll read it and be convicted and say "Wow that is me!" 

I would suggest really studying around on that site before you say anything. The reason I suggest that is that the more you know and understand, the more you'll be able to identify when it's happening and have a few tools how to handle it in a healthy way (and not return to the old dance steps). When you try to change the dance steps, I *GUARANTEE* you that he will try every trick he can think of to get you back to the old dancing, so it's really wise to know he'll try and be prepared with some ideas how to react. And yep, if saying things to the kids gets you back to the old dance, he'll do it. If suicide threats gets you back to the old dance, he'll do it. The idea is to have a healthy response to his attempts--like when he tells the kids "Mommy doesn't love daddy anymore" you can respond "Mommy loves daddy very much but will not allow him to be verbally abusive to me anymore. I am too valuable a person to allow abuse in my life." (See how that calls it what it is and also keeps it on you versus saying "He's being abusive"?). When he threatens suicide: "It's too bad that you are so depressed you want to end your life. Shall I call 911 so you can get the psychiatric help you so clearly need? Or would you prefer the emergency room?" Anyway can you see the idea? He is going to try to get you into the old pattern/cycle and you can arm yourself with ideas of new ways to respond if you read more on that site. 



> I found out last night that he has been telling people at my work place (we work same place/different schedules) that I am unhappy with the job and that
> I may want to leave. He shared this info freely with people and now I could be eliminated in the next round of job cuts.
> I DO know that this is just his normal (negative) disposition. But I have warned him about involving me! ...How do I fix this? Now I may be facing job loss!!!


 If it were me, I'd go straight to the boss, explain to the boss that your husband "forgot" to mail a check so you could avoid a $100k debt, and now it would seem that he might be trying to cause you to lose your job so he can control you. Tell the boss that like any person there are parts of the job you love, parts that you don't like (DUH! that's true for every job) and that you appreciate being able to care for yourself and your family financially. 

It's my personal opinion that it would appear he is doing this PRECISELY because you are beginning to be independent enough to see through his emotional abuse and so he's making deliberate steps so you have to depend on him (and thus, can't leave). That is just my educated guess and opinion based on what you've written here. 

Anyway, my thought/recommendation would be to continue with the homework--read on the site and books if you can, and learn as much as you can. This will be a great way to begin protecting yourself, your children, and your finances.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I really appreciate all of this insight. I find myself fighting all of this -- thinking that I am just overreacting. Boy, it's hard to face reality. It is very clear, that my DH is in the HEARTS AND FLOWERS stage. He lit candles and "wanted" to give me a massage on Saturday. Then, I woke to find flowers and candy ... and a heart... It's almost as if he has read the textbook. And it really is so easy to feel a sense of "relief" and fall back into the normal pattern of life. 

I can tell you I have done this time and time again...and every time I give him another chance ....I get hit with yet another unfortunate "surprise". I often find myself feeling as if "he's such a good guy"... Then, I find new evidence of him....lying. He said more than a month ago that he would "shut down" his facebook page because of my concerns. I told him that it was NOT necessary ...I just wanted him to control his negative rants and communicating with a woman who was calling him a pet name! Anyway, he insisted. Said he wanted to do WHATEVER he could to honor me as his wife. Well, he didn't shut it down. So, I called him on it. He said "he does not remember" promising me that. He has stopped posting....but he told me he doesn't know "how" shut down his facebook page. COME ON! I said ..well figure it out. He hasn't.

Then, I saw he received an email from a relative asking why he hadn't been posting as much. He returned the email to her...saying that I told him to stop because..in so many words... I was controling. He then deleted the email trail to her.... 

I haven't confronted him on that.... I am going to spend more time researching that website. I will also get the book about angry, controling men. I suppose I need to realize that none of this is going to change... 

I have to say I am really worried about my job, as I mentioned. I think the fact that he started spreading a rumor that could endanger my job...is enough for me to walk. That is the most manipulative thing he can do... I will say that he actually was stupid enough to post his own angry rant about our employer on HIS facebook page. It's just his personality to complain and complain. When I saw this more than a month ago -- I told him to STOP! I informed him how dangerous that was...since many of his "friends" are coworkers. He said "ok". So, the fact that he is STILL telling people that I'm thinking about leaving....is just beyond me. He just can't shut his mouth....and word travels fast. 

I suppose I should tell my employer of our separation when it happens? Just in case he starts intensifying his ranting? It's such a fine line to walk ...with your employer. 

Thanks again for all this insight!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you should warn your employer NOW of the kinds of things your husband is doing, because your husband is such a good manipulator that your employer probably believes everything HE says and nothing YOU say. 

Abuse is a cycle, and getting a woman is a game for them, a thrill. They sweettalk to get you feeling in love; they relax and start being themself; they start manipulating when you express unhappiness to guilt you; they start 'hinting' that you'e be better off if you don't see your family and friends as much, cos they complicate things and all he wants is for YOU to be happy, so you give up your support system; they start criticizing to make you doubt yourself and feel grateful that he would KEEP you; they start fighting if you still push so you back down and learn to be silent; they may get violent if that doesn't work.

At that point, you become a drone, or else you get smart and pull away. At that point, they may ramp up a modified cycle of the above in a desperate attempt to rein you in: begging you, sweettalking you (flowers, etc.), guilting you, getting angry at you, abandoning you, calling you back up and begging you (suicide), getting mad again...see how it cycles?

You can be smarter than that. Decide WHAT you will accept, accept nothing less, and if he won't go along with that, it's still just a game for him.


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## SpliceStyle (Feb 8, 2010)

:iagree:


Affaircare said:


> I just wanted you to know that I've read your post and I know you are anxious for a reply, but I'm going to think and pray about it first, okay? So I'm here--just considering. And I'm so sorry to hear about this. It sounds like he's hurt you to the core.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

So, I have an update on the issues. I have been reading the verbal abuse website and I REALLY stood up for myself with my DH! Thank you SO MUCH! Yesterday, I told my DH that I really feel that we are struggling largely because of our opposite work schedules. I told him I feel like a single mother because he is never around in the evening. He is at work until 11 pm -- but he rarely even calls to say goodnight to our child at bedtime. He just doesn't communicate other than maybe a text or 2. 

Anyway, he said "ok" I will try to find a new job. I said, well I think it's time you "think big". I told him I have always felt he was so bright and capable and that THIS IS HIS TIME to figure out what he wants to do with his life. His job is about to become extinct because of changing technology. I have asked him for years to think about going back to school or launching a business... The biggest message I have always tried to send him...is that I don't want to hold all the burden of being the breadwinner FOREVER. I want him to think big. When I married him -- he had HUGE aspirations. 

So, what was his answer? He said, well you have a public job -- how would you feel if I got a new job... as say.... a garbage worker or a photoworker at CVS? I said you can do WHATEVER you'd like. He then said, "really, so ok, I'll quit my job and get a job with waste management". I UNLOADED! I told him that he was manipulating me and I wasn't going to stand for it anymore. I told him that he was doing this just to make me "say no, stay in your current job"....and that I was not going to be forced into anything. I explained that I have ALWAYS believed in him and that I wanted to HELP him get into a long term career that will help our family. He said that "making money wasn't his chief concern". He told me that he "doesn't like a lot of jobs and that he's picky".... He said "he's comfortable" where he is at. It does not bother him that we only see each other 45 minutes a day and that his job will be extinct in the next 5 years. He said "I will deal with that...when I have to". 

So, essentially he told me that making money is MY problem and that he will just try to find a job with hours to make me happy....(which he has told me he would do ...for years - he won't actually do it). I told him that he was undercutting himself and his abilities...that I was disappointed that he would be so selfish. 

He got up and said he "had to go to work". He then called me later to tell me he started looking at jobs ...and found THE PERFECT job...but it only pays 7 dollars an hour and only requires a high school diploma. This is a man who makes 50k a year right now...and has a college degree. The same person who had plans of being a business owner...when we met. I just don't believe what I'm hearing. 

I told him that he really needs to figure out if he is going to give his "all" to our marriage or not. He asked if I was going to leave him..I told him that IS UP TO HIM. I said the choice is "up to you" ...either you decide to give it all you've got...or I'm done. 

I woke up this morning...heart broken. I honestly can't see my life without him. I can't ....why am I struggling so much to just let go ...of someone who clearly doesn't REALLY want to try to be the best husband and father he can... 

I'm scared of being alone. SO scared. It's just horrible to think about....but my DH told me that he would be a garbage worker (basically to SPITE me). It's just hard for me to get my head around this ... 

Thanks for your advice. I'm getting stronger... just through the advice on this board.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm really proud of you. Really proud. Communication is the key to a relationship. He has to know where you stand, and he has to know you won't continue to accept crumbs.

I often think some men just revert to being a 9 year old when faced with adversity. As long as they get what they want - in your case, a mommy, a caretaker, free SF, and no hassle - they're fine. But test them, and wow! It's like you made them kill their mother or something. These guys never had their parents push them to grow and learn and have standards and how to do the right thing...so they never learned any of that. 

But I'm glad you're seeing the manipulation. Just keep pointing it out to him. He CAN change. I've seen bigger miracles, seemingly hopeless marriages turn around when the wife finally puts her foot down and is ready to leave. Just be true to what YOU need.

And, fwiw, you would be fine on your own. He doesn't complete you. YOU complete you. God made you, so you're worthy and whole, all on your own.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

You might want to check out info on Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder, too (PAPD) b/c it sounds like he is really good at being passive-aggressive.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes. Passive agressive is definitely my husband. It's awful and I know that will never change. 
He maintains that he loves his job and doesn't want to leave it. He is still showing me jobs... That pay 7 dollars an hour to
prove me wrong. It's frustrating. I don't even know what to say anymore. He wants to keep his job... Despite the
family/time concerns. 

What do I do? I guess I should be grateful he at least has a job and is dedicated to it. 
He still doesn't agree with splitting up the finances. I'm just going to do it. He can deal with it. 
He's agreed to go back and talk to HIS therapist... But I don't expect that to last. 

How do I get the strength to WANT to leave? I had it when I was really angry, but now I'm 
back to being depressed and complacent. 

He tried to be intimate with me over the weekend and kept pouring me wine. I had to be drunk 
and I still (secretly) cried. 

I'm a wreck! 




TE=sisters359;126416]You might want to check out info on Passive-Aggressive Personality Disorder, too (PAPD) b/c it sounds like he is really good at being passive-aggressive.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

First of all, do NOT be intimate if you don't want to! Don't DO that to yourself!

Second, you need a therapist, who can help you build up your self esteem. That's the first thing that goes in an abusive situation - your belief in yourself. Once you get that back, you can see what you need to do.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I have a therapist who is working on that with me. The problem that I face is that my DH says he turns to porn or masturbation when
I'm not willing.... So I feel as if "I" am the cause of our intimacy problems. 
And when I refuse him... There is more tension and he gets even more depressed and passive aggressive. So... I just feel trapped... Do I try to improve
the marriage or do I push him away again. 

The sad part is I look at him and see a "physically" gorgeous man. He's stunning. But I just can't "feel" it...





turnera said:


> First of all, do NOT be intimate if you don't want to! Don't DO that to yourse
> Second, you need a, who help you build up your self esteem. That's the first thing that goes in an abusive situation - your belief in yourself. Once you get that back, you can see what you need to do.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> The problem that I face is that my DH says he turns to porn or masturbation when
> I'm not willing


 You realize, right, that you are taking on HIS issues as your own? So what if he turns to that. HE's a grown man. HE can make choices. HE has to live with it. All you've done is respected yourself. Having SF when you don't feel attracted to your H is...well, you know what it is.

fwiw, do you see the manipulation in that statement? HE says HE turns to it if YOU are not willing. 

Not saying this will be easy. When you start standing up for yourself, he WON'T like it. He'll try 'change back!' behaviors to cow you back into your 'rightful' position. But this time you're smarter, and you will only agree to those things that heal YOU. Right?


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes, I know that it is manipulation. I see that. But, it's nearly impossible not to feel the pressure, even when
he doesn't say anything. Truth be told, I have felt like a cold hearted bit*h around him. 
I've found myself scoping out other men and I feel that's just asking for trouble. The last time we separated, I found myself 
in the middle of an emotional affair. I know therapistd say it's normal for people to search elsewhere when their needs are being ignored... But I
felt so guilty. Still do. And Im afraid I could find myself bAck in that position again. 

Wouldn't it be best to continue to search for some sort of connection with my DH? 
I find myself wondering though... How I could despise him so much I 
would cry during intimacy... But still not have the strength to leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not telling you to leave. I just want you to learn what YOU need to be happy in life. Let your H know what YOU need to be happy in life. Then tell him that whatever he does that detracts from that, will be dealt with in some way. At the same time, you intend to be a loving wife. But you will no longer subjugate yourself when you feel it's wrong.

About the feeling the pressure...that is YOUR pressure, yes? YOU put that on your shoulders, as so many women do. It's up to you to learn to stop doing it. Did you get that book I recommended yet? What about The Dance of Anger? That might be a better one to start with. 

Once you have a healthy self esteem, you may 'feel' that pressure, but you'll be able to shove it right back at HIM (lovingly of course) and say 'you know what? today is my day off, you can handle that yourself' or whatever the situation is, and you'll be able to walk away happy, knowing you DESERVE to be happy, too.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

An update on my situation. My DH went to see HIS therapist. He said the session went "well". He said that his therapist thought I had "trust issues" ....following the porn and the fact that I keep asking him about his "slip ups". He said that his therapist encouraged him to stay in a job that makes him happy ...and not to leave a position that truly fulfills him. She told him that our small amount of time together is "very common". So, I gather that this therapist is not hearing the entire story and is encouraging him. 

He told me that he plans to go back to her, but only until "he feels better about himself". Then, an hour after he tells me that -- I had a coworker come up to me and say, "you know, your husband is a spoiled brat". I said, why would you say that? He said that he asked my DH about his car (2005 BMW sedan) and if he liked it. (My husband makes 55k a year). My DH told him "no, I hate it -- it's just my wife's hand me downs". "I hate every minute of driving it, I'm a truck guy". 
This coworker drives an older model of the same car. I confronted DH about this and he apologized. He said he was "sorry, but it's the truth, I hate that car". I asked him if he had any idea of how awful that sounds since most people would dream of driving a BMW. He quietly said "ok, I won't every complain about it again". 

Seriously? Does he NOT get it? How could he run his mouth like that? It just looks so bad....and it reflects on me. This is his behavior...in REMORSE.... he is on "good behavior" ...and he just can't understand the proper way to deal with me ..or anyone else for that matter. 

And now he has reservations for dinner for Valentine's Day. Great... I guess I just have to deal with him ...until after Valentines. I just can't comprehend ..how this stuff continues!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> He quietly said "ok, I won't every complain about it again".


There's that mommy-son complex again.

IIWY, I would print out this thread and mail it to his therapist. She needs to her your side. Call her and tell her you're mailing it to her, and ask her to consider that she is not hearing the full picture. Tell her you WANT her to help him, but if he's giving her false information, she can be harming him, thus the information. She SHOULD want to know everything.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I have to say, though, that you missed a valuable lesson here. He had a 'secret' that he kept from you. Why? Because he didn't feel safe telling you. That should make you pause, and ask yourself why.

Don't you want your H to ALWAYS tell you what he's feeling? Why wouldn't he? Because he expects to get bad feelings from telling you. And guess what? He got them! He admitted the truth, and instead of thanking him for telling you the truth, you trashed him for something about YOU, how YOU felt.

Do you think he's going to continue keeping secrets?

You can still apologize, tell him YOU are learning, too.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

No...this isn't a secret. He has hated that car for a long time. But, we were so upside down on the loan we both decided that it was best to pay the car off.

Then, a few months ago he started talking about wanting to get a new car. But, I reminded him we are broke. I offered to start driving the car to work, so he can drive the SUV throughout the day. So, we share both cars. It's not "his"..it is "ours"... and the only time he drives the car - is to work. 

I know I got upset with him -- but he shouldn't talk like that ..in my opinion. 

Do you think I should apologize??


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Apologies soften the heart. IMO, you can rarely apologize too much, when you're trying to fix a marriage. Unless the other person is manipulating or abusing you, of course. But if you see a situation where you could have handled things better, by all means, do. I think that's how most marriages get to the point of trouble - little, tiny slights that we feel at the hands of our spouse, we don't speak out, we harbor it, we start keeping track of them, we tell ourselves THEY are bad people (when in reality they're hurting just as much as we are), and then we just stop sharing with each other. Apologies are AMAZING tools.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Hello everyone. I'm here for some support. My DH and I decided to separate yesterday and it's killing me. This week has been filled with blunders and I just knew I had to finally take a stand... He let a stranger/repairman into the house while I was napping. He just left and said "wake my wife if you need anything"! Then the repairman left and he dropped our 4 year old off in the house (while I'm fast asleep in a closed bedroom w/ no knowledge of this. He told our son to "go play". Fortunately, my son came screaming "mommy, daddy left me" and woke me up.

I confronted my DH and he apologized for the repairman... But said I was overreacting with my son. He said our 4 year is "fine alone for small periods of time" and we live with a creek in our backyard!!! I couldn't believe it. 

Then... In his effort to look at new job opportunities (gotta give him that). He took a colleague of ours out to lunch. This person is starting a niche biz. My DH told me he thought he (dh) and I could do it bigger and better than our colleague. So he said he was going to ask this guy (a friend too) all of secrets, essentially. I said you can't do that unless you want to partner with him ... He said ... Oh ok... I couldn't believe he was going to do that! Well after the lunch he happily told me that he gave this guy some ideas for future projects.. They were ideas my DH and I discussed (my ideas!) for a business! He asked the guy if HE wanted to do them with him! I said HOW could you do that? He said, well I don't know... I just thought you were too busy (with our son)! 
He said "he's got too much in his head to keep it all straight". 

I told him we need to separate. I make 4 times his salary and HE is part of the reason we are so in debt.. As you'll see in previous posts in this thread. He wanted ME to move out and HE would stay in the house with our son. I said no... How would you afford the rent payment (it's more than he even brings home in a month) and he said well I'm sure you want to pay the rent for the roof over your son's head! I said yes but I'm not going to pay rent for you to live there! He couldn't understand that. Is he CRAZY? I'm going to pay a monster rent payment for him to live in my house with our son? 

He then said well I think that house is too expensive for just you and our son so you need to move out too. THEN he started apologizing and suggesting he just lives in the other bedroom while we go to counseling. He now WANTS counseling. What do I do? 

A friend suggested I call CPS on him for leaving our son... And kick him out ...

I find myself considering the other bedroom idea because I don't WANT divorce... I WANT change in his behavior. Thoughts? Thanks in advance. 








turnera said:


> Apologies soften the heart. IMO, you can rarely apologize too much, when you're trying to fix a marriage. Unless the other person is manipulating or abusing you, of course. But if you see a situation where you could have handled things better, by all means, do. I think that's how most marriages get to the point of trouble - little, tiny slights that we feel at the hands of our spouse, we don't speak out, we harbor it, we start keeping track of them, we tell ourselves THEY are bad people (when in reality they're hurting just as much as we are), and then we just stop sharing with each other. Apologies are AMAZING tools.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

when i read the beginning of your post...totally sounded like you maade a decision. The right one.

I get to the bottom and read in detail...only to find you havnt.

argh

You're just torturing yourself.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you... I value that feedback. I guess that means you think he should move out . 

I am meeting with the sttorney tomorrow... I'm just scared. She says legal papers will help get him out of the house... 
I am NOT paying for him to live there...crazy! 




63Vino said:


> when i read the beginning of your post...totally sounded like you maade a decision. The right one.
> 
> I get to the bottom and read in detail...only to find you havnt.
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluemoon7 (Jan 27, 2010)

Please stop letting yourself be guided by guilt and manipulation. You know the answer, you just need to summon the courage to follow through and trust yourself. 

He needs to move out. Since you pay the bills and raise your son mostly by yourself, it makes absolutely no sense for you to move and him to stay in the house. It might be a very educational experience for him to live alone, to pay his own bills, and reflect on the changes he needs to make to get his family back. He has been acting like a spoiled brat (Seriously?! Complaining about the $50,000 car that he has to drive. Cry me a river.) and you enable him by accepting his behavior. As Turnera said, YOU need to figure out what changes YOU need to be satisfied in this marriage.

Don't be afraid to be alone....IMO, it would be better than constantly looking over your shoulder wondering what he will do next.....


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## babooshka (Feb 20, 2010)

God. This is awful. I have no idea how you lasted so long with this abuse but you should have been out of there a long time ago. 

Maybe one day you two can reconcile, but right now, in my opinion, there is _nothing_ he can do to fix this. NOTHING! No amount of counselling, flowers or job changes. The ONLY way for you to ever give him a chance again is if, at least 6 months down the road (and I wouldn't tell him about this time frame), you find that he has made changes of his own accord. Got a serious job that can pay bills, handles his own life and bills independently, is a good father to his son and spends time with him, all of the BASIC requirements. Heavens!

The man belittles you, has put you in the poor house, NEGLECTED his own son!!! He sounds spiteful, selfish, spoiled, completely unreasonable and a liar. This isn't behavior to be tolerated in a child, let alone a spouse!

I'm not married so maybe I'm off base but you have terrified me of the thought of marriage. What you are describing is not a marriage, it sounds like a parent with a wayward child that frankly, should be kicked out of the goddam house!! Even if he was a child of 18 years and not a husband, I'd kick him out. It would be doing him a favor. Being unsafe with your child is a red line that is 100% intolerable to be crossed. This is utterly ridiculous. Being alone is infinitely better than being with this leech. What good does he possibly return that is worth all this grief??

Stick to your guns, for God's sake. Think what will happen to your son if you don't.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Thank you for your support. It's not easy. I realize that I should have stopped this behavior long ago. 

I asked my DH to get his own apartment on Saturday -- he hasn't. He moved into the spare bedroom and is doing everything possible to win me back. Interesting though -- he still hasn't seen his therapist. He attempted to set an appointment with a couples therapist, but he says the ONE person he called hasn't called back yet. So, 5 days later -- here we sit in the same situation. 

I'm talking to an attorney and I'm going to be forced to file divorce to get temporary custody of our son and get him out of the house. That's because my state does not recognize legal separation. As you might imagine, this is a very difficult thing for me to do. I still can't believe it's come to this. It's like an out of body experience, in many ways.

He is now asking to come back to the bedroom -- because "he misses me". He has no idea what I have up my sleeve and unfortunately, it has to be that way. 

When will this get easier? It is MOST difficult because as Tumera and Affaircare pointed out -- there is a cycle to his behavior. He is being so sweet and kind -- making me feel horrible about considering abandoning him.

He emails me pictures throughout the day now -- of our son -- notating how much he loves him. I understand that there is a reason he's doing that...it's not just for the fun of it. 

Thanks for your thoughts and support.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Grrr.

Just keep repeating, "You can SHOW me you deserve me by doing what I asked for. Until then, nothing will matter."

Be prepared for him to get mad, though, when he realizes his typical tricks aren't working. Always have your keys in your pocket. Don't let him park behind you. Keep your wallet on you or in your car (if it's safe) so you don't have to look for it. Have a bag in your trunk packed with stuff for you and your son, in case you need to leave in a hurry.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

So why do I feel like such a moron? Am I stupid or just too forgiving? 
I'm trying to understand why I still want to make "everything ok" and my therapist, friends etc think I shouldn't even consider couples therapy... And should just divorce. Why is it that "I" have gone through all this pain... And I'm the one who wants to repair the marriage. Right now, he is acting like the perfect husband. Except communication is still poor (he won an professional award and I had to read about it on his facebook page). 

Why am I so quick to forgive? What's wrong with me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

whatdoido said:


> Thank you for your support. It's not easy. I realize that I should have stopped this behavior long ago.


It's not easy and it's okay. You are taking steps everyday and once you had the knowledge and the strength, you began moving to protect yourself. You are doing fine! 



> I asked my DH to get his own apartment on Saturday -- he hasn't. He moved into the spare bedroom and is doing everything possible to win me back. Interesting though -- he still hasn't seen his therapist. He attempted to set an appointment with a couples therapist, but he says the ONE person he called hasn't called back yet. So, 5 days later -- here we sit in the same situation.


whatdoido says: "_DH you have one week to make living arrangements. Seven days from today, your items can either be moved into your new living arrangements or I will pack them in boxes, put the boxes in storage and give you the key. You can decide--I don't care which--but you are no longer living here_. "



> I'm talking to an attorney and I'm going to be forced to file divorce to get temporary custody of our son and get him out of the house. That's because my state does not recognize legal separation. As you might imagine, this is a very difficult thing for me to do. I still can't believe it's come to this. It's like an out of body experience, in many ways.


I'm not sure what state you're in but often you can file for divorce, get the temporary custody etc. and then if you so choose, it can be delayed when the court date is coming up, etc. Remember, filing papers does not equal divorce; it equals legally protecting yourself and your son so you can do what is wise for you. Know what I mean? There is NO RUSH to actually finalize the divorce per se...there is a rush to protect yourself. 



> He is now asking to come back to the bedroom -- because "he misses me". He has no idea what I have up my sleeve and unfortunately, it has to be that way.


Can I just point out ONE THING that really stood out to me here? It is all about him and what he wants. At no point does he acknowledge you, what you want or need, or even see you as equal. HE wants in because HE misses you. Does he even notice or care if you miss him? Who knows?



> When will this get easier? It is MOST difficult because as Tumera and Affaircare pointed out -- there is a cycle to his behavior. He is being so sweet and kind -- making me feel horrible about considering abandoning him.


whatdoido, I'm not sure that it gets "easier" but as you stop doing the dance of anger and refuse to re-engage in the abusive cycle, he will get angry but you'll start to be able to see it more objectively. Right now it's like you are right in the middle of it and it's hard to see and hurts you. The more you get away from that cycle, the easier it becomes to see the shenanigans for what they are. His sweetness now is not out of real caring for you whatdoido. It's to "get back" what he wants. 

When it is real caring for you, here's what it would look like: 
1) he would admit that he had an abuse problem and not blame his actions on you
2) he would say it's reasonable for you to be hurt because he behaved hurtfully
3) he would say "What can I do to help you through this hurt?" and follow through for you
4) he would make the counseling appt. on his own and arrange to get there on his own
5) he would do the "homework" from the counseling.
6) if you said you needed some time apart, he'd respect your wish and not pressure you. 

Get the idea? 



> He emails me pictures throughout the day now -- of our son -- notating how much he loves him. I understand that there is a reason he's doing that...it's not just for the fun of it.


Please go ahead and block him from your email temporarily. He is literally just hassling you. Well no to be specific, ask him DIRECTLY "_Please stop sending me pictures of our son in my email. That tactic will not work and I take it as pressure and harassment. I am not asking you, I'm telling you to stop...now._" I am assuming he will not respect your request to stop, so then you go ahead and block him so he does not have access to trifle with you. 



> Thanks for your thoughts and support.


 You're welcome. We care whatdoido.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

%


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I have an update. My husband and I started therapy. Marriage counseling has been ugly to say the least. 
But, I'm recognizing that he is making small steps of progress. But some of the core issues are still present. He is treating me like I'm a princess AT TIMES. He makes me lunches, gives me massages, even draws me a bath. But, it's hard to truly appreciate all of that when I learn he's secretly trying to convince his old high school friends to go on a "guys only" trip to Vegas. When I asked him about it (because my 4 ye old was asking what Vegas was) he said it was all A JOKE. But, after he got off the phone with me he started deleting all of his emails begging them to go with him. (mind you he just suggested I file for bankruptcy).

Then, our son was having an allergy attack in a store. I called him and told him and that an ambulance was on the way. He initially told me he wasn't sure if he could get off work. When I demanded he come, he quickly changed his tune. But he started asking me WHY I chose an ambulance (while we were in the middle of the emergency - waiting for paramedics) and wouldn't drive him.... even though I had just told him I had been accidentally injected with an ephinephrine pen, along with my son. I was so angry that our safety wasn't top of mind. He did come right over and he backtracked... Telling everyone how brave I was etc... But his impulse was not what I'd consider normal. This is your family!

He still won't switch schedules. (we work opposite schedules - he works till 11pm and never sees our son since he's in preschool). He says "he's tried" but he hasn't - because we work at the same place and I know his boss. He then said he'll try to find a job in a different career field. But, he was upset that someone who he spoke with on a random cold call-- filled their position without waiting for his resume to arrive (2 weeks late). He said "I thought he wanted me to send a resume and be considered."

We had a big blowout in marriage counseling about the job issue and he said he feels too much pressure from me to change careers, just so our family can be together. He says that it's common for spouses and children to only see each other for an hour a day. Mind you - I make the bulk of the income (can't change my job) and end up living like a single parent since he doesn't get home from work until midnight. But, I have to be at work my 3:45 am -- so I average about 4 hours of sleep (caring for our son ) because he doesn't want to change shifts at our company or go after a job somewhere else. 

I see little glimmers of hope because he is going to therapy and doing small things. He now says he will "man up" and try to adjust his schedule/job. But, I know he's just waiting for me to stop complaining and he will stop bringing home job opening print outs -- because he's only sent out 1 resume in 5 weeks time. 

Should I just be happy that he's trying or should I just file the darn papers. I feel bad for not being more grateful for his efforts -- but, I just get the impression I'm annoying him.
When I asked him for an update about his efforts to change schedules yesterday - he said why do you insist on asking about something that I've already told I don't want to do. I said - well in therapy - you said you were going to "man up" and consider helping me out. He got REALLY mad and said all you want to do is make me feel like I'm not good enough. I said NO I just want some sleep and less stress from all the family responsibilities. I have a right to ask, right? He then through a temper tantrum which eventually ended with him saying "i'm sorry, you're right" "I'm going to look for a more convenient job to help our family". 

I just feel like I'm reading tea leaves - because who knows if he's serious. Thanks in advance!


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Bump please. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

what, your post was confusing. It looks like you mixed your text in with someone else's answers. Can you go back and look and see if it needs to be edited? I wasn't sure what you were saying, so I didn't respond.

Thanks!


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Sorry -- I did it on my mobile phone and I have now rectified the problem.

Thanks for your time and attention, Turnera!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Hmmm...I think you should use the marriage counselor time to set down CONCRETE steps that BOTH of you are going to do. It seems like at least at their office, he does seem to be wanting to do the right thing. USE that by using that time to get in writing what is expected of both of you.

Yes, he should be stepping up. But he has to have a reason to do so. By that I mean, are you welcoming to him, appreciative of what he DOES do, making sure his Emotional Needs are getting met?

The more you please HIM, the more he will want to please you.

And you can't control him. The best you can do is to make coming home to you the best part of his life, so that he will jump through hoops to keep you happy. Getting him to do things just to AVOID punishment won't work for long; he'll revert to his 12 year old self, because YOU are turning into his mother. Not a criticism, just how things often turn out. Some men take longer to mature, you know? Make it worthwhile.

Do you know about Love Busters and Emotional Needs?


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes I have read up about emotional needs etc. I have tried. But, to be honest, I haven't even been able to do more than give him a peck on the mouth. I don't want to touch him. He IS trying in areas but he acts like such a spoiled child overall... I have a hard time wanting to please him. We have this huge debt because of him and now a 6thousand dollar tax bill and he's secretly planning a guys trip to Vegas??? 

Our marriage counselor met with me individually (he did the sane with my husband).
But he told me that he didn't understand why I was still married. He said it was clear my husband didn't have my back. He wanted to know what's holding me back. That was a tough moment. We have another session tomorrow. I'm nervous...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you can't stand him, why are you trying?


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I still love him as a person, despit it all. I keep hoping that I will be able to feel something positive again.

I do not want divorce as you can probably see from my thread. I keep thinking that each time.. Things will improve. I guess right now I am scared to let my guard down again because he's spent years causing so much damage. Tens of thousands of dollars in debt... Asking me to get plastic surgery..asking him sick elderly "working" parents to give him 20k... Because he "needed it". Even though we agreed he would not ask them for it.

Sure all of these things haven't happened again... But now what am I supposed to think? He's going to therapy.. But he's still resistant to being the man of the family. 

Sorry.. I guess I just want an outsider's opinion, have I given my all? Am I leaving too soon? I just find myself scared.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you should leave him. And then tell him if he wants to date, you can. But he'd have to jump through hoops to be able to marry you again.

Only then can you become ok with yourself and learn that you deserve better.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry but it really isn't complicated. I am a 47 year old male - in a 20+ year marriage. After reading your whole thread I have concluded the following:
- Your happiness is not a priority to him and hasn't been for a long long time. 
- Most of his kindness is purely driven by a desire to get you to forgive him for abusing you or get you to drop the idea of divorcing him.
- He is incredibly self focused - forget about whether or not he likes the bmw - who cares. The most important person in his life is unhappy and yet he is focused on what car he is driving. The combo of HIS needs being a super high priority to him and your needs being a very low priority to him - drives almost all of this nonsense including the planned trip to vegas
- This craziness about split shifts is a very very big red flag - not making an effort to be with you - shame on him
- He talked a big provider game to get you to marry him - then no follow through - this is like women who are great in bed before marriage and then shut it down after the wedding
- He sure is manipulative in some very ugly ways










whatdoido said:


> I still love him as a person, despit it all. I keep hoping that I will be able to feel something positive again.
> 
> I do not want divorce as you can probably see from my thread. I keep thinking that each time.. Things will improve. I guess right now I am scared to let my guard down again because he's spent years causing so much damage. Tens of thousands of dollars in debt... Asking me to get plastic surgery..asking him sick elderly "working" parents to give him 20k... Because he "needed it". Even though we agreed he would not ask them for it.
> 
> ...


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Well, I'm not interested in casting any spells -- but I certainly appreciate all of the other feedback. I had a priest tell me recently that I would have "no questions" in my gut -- if I truly needed to leave my husband. I guess that's why I'm so confused. I feel like my husband is emotionally abusive. He tries to make me feel guilty for even asking about his schedule etc... but then makes me feel (a few hours later) that he's Mr. Wonderful... and so genuinely sorry. It leaves me questioning if he truly is beyond hope. But, not much has changed in the BIG PICTURE. 

He took that money from his parents many months ago - we fought about it then. But, it has always bothered me. When we nearly separated a few weeks ago - I brought it up again. I told him that it was still bothering me that we were so fundamentally different -- that he and I are night and day when it comes to issues like that. Even after ALL of that fighting -- he still was resistant and defended that decision. He said that I just "didn't understand his family". He said he agreed he shouldn't have done it behind my back after he agreed NOT to ask for it, but he still feels that it wasn't a mistake to take the money. He says they both (in 70s and sick) LOVE to work..and he sees no reason to avoid taking the money, since they called it an "early inheritance". Bottom line - his mother told him weeks before he ASKED for the money -- that his dad was showing signs of early Alzheimer's and she was worried because he was giving away their savings like it was water. I just don't know how anyone can justify taking money from their parents - under these conditions -- AND knowing we net about 5 times their income! 

I am going to have to just get the willpower and leave him. If our own marriage counselor wonders why I haven't left yet -- that must be a sign, right? :sleeping:


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## pochael (Apr 12, 2010)

Here is my only advice. God has made you one flesh. You are to complete each other. 

Now with us only getting one side of the story it is a little hard, but I will tell you, I do not discount what you are saying. With that said.

First... You must get anything out of the house that has created margin. It seems the computer is a big thing. I was into porn at one time, but that is all gone. But when I was in that, the face book and other things were harmless fun for a while, then it was changing. Thank God I never went further. Plus you have a child in the house. No telling what he will come across. Take the computer out of the house. As for the financial. Bankruptcy is not what it used to be. And I do not believe a judge will honor it, if you are making good money. 
So, have one bank account that both of your paychecks go into. From that, have a predetermined budget that allows you both to have a seperate account that you each get an allowance. I am not a believer in single named accounts for married people but you can tell him this is a temporary thing until he learns financial planning. If he uses his allotted money before the next amount goes in DO NOT GIVE HIM ANYMORE> 
This is also going to be hard on you. But I need to give you something straight. You allow him to do these things. I know you fight with him etc.. However it seems that if he cries like a kid long enough you will eventually give in. 

If you really want to fix your marriage. I want to test you on something. I see a number of similarities. Today, go to a movie store (even a rental place) and get a movie called "FireProof". Think of it as your marriage. Watch it by yourself. Let me know what you think (or your reaction). And I will tell you step 2. Please PM me, because I do not always check on these forums.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

pochael, the problem with your solution is that her husband does not CARE if she is happy. He has made that abundantly clear, that his needs come first and if she doesn't like it, tough. 

There is no negotiating with that, except for threatening to leave. And she has even done THAT, and he still makes no change. In fact, he continues to do even more destructive things.

Sometimes people just have to live apart for the two of them to finally grow up. I don't usually push separation, because it's harder to fix a marriage apart. But in 2 or 3 occasions, I have told the OP to leave, because their partner is so set on their own path that nothing else will have an effect.

Oh, I wanted to add that the advice you are giving is very sound, for most marriages.


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

It's actually an interesting movie. I'm watching it on Youtube -- it's available there.

It actually something that made me cry. It's so strange -- my husband already makes me dinners -- leaves me flowers -- calls to ask how my day was... He's made THOSE changes. 

Am I am still cold hearted...(I don't show him but I am)... because I know that he's secretly planning to spend loads of money in Vegas (if he can get his friends to go). I also know that he still won't change shifts to be with his family. He wants what he wants...he will try to appeal to me by "spoiling me". But, it's not enough. 

I think he has a fundamental difference from my beliefs. I asked him to help me do a list of priorities in life. I wanted to see where his values were ...in a spouse. It went like this (in order). 1)loving and willing to act on it. 2) Intelligent-career driven 3)Sexy and flirty/attractive 4) Family oriented 5)Spirtual 6) Honest...

This was very eye opening to me...because my number one was God ...and Family was second... That is proof that we just don't see eye to eye...

Thanks for all of this feedback..


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

I have update from our marriage counseling session yesterday. 
It was so awful. This is our second session. My husband asked ME to give HIM some reasons about why I feel like I can't let my guard down. (That is what I told the therapist). I told him that he took the money from his parents behind my back, and he asked me to get plastic surgery etc...and left me alone (sleeping) in the house with a repairman. He rolled his eyes. The therapist called him on it and asked him. He told the therapist that I was "obsessed with plastic surgery". It's totally untrue. When I tried to defend myself - he said that I work in a model type industry and that I am always worried about my appearance - hair etc. He said since I've had botox and had researched having my lips filled (he begged me to do this) that I was opening myself up for it...and also because I was asking his opinion on clothing. He said THAT gives him license to say that. AND -- he said that it was all "a joke" anyway. I said - well you even suggested how to pay for it -- HOW is that a JOKE? He said it "just was".

Then...I told him that I saw he was planning a guys trip to Vegas on his email. He said that it was just a "joke" too! I said well -- how is that a joke when you say "seriously guys, who is in -- I'm renting a house"... then later "Ok - so and so is in...who else is coming with me? " 

He SWEARS that it was all a spoof email chain and that I don't understand his friends humor. I said -- well they were talking about dates etc... and he said you just don't understand. 

What am I to think?


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

That he is a liar doing whatever it takes to undermine your confidence in your ability to make judgments.

It seems to be working. Why are you questioning yourself like this? 

He isn't taking any responsibility for the things you KNOW he's done. He never responded on the other things--the money, leaving you with the repairman. He picked something he could twist, and he did. You know which of you pushed the surgery; who cares if the therapist does or doesn't? 

Do not question yourself on these things. You know the truth and he's trying to make it seem like you don't, on selective lies. Refuse to play his game. Tell him that trying to say something is a joke--like the plastic surgery thing--when he knows YOU know the truth, demonstrates again and again why you cannot trust him.

Here is the real question: why are you subjecting yourself to this?


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## whatdoido (Jan 4, 2010)

Yes. Good Question.

He also told me (confronted me) after the session about something he told the therapist before I got there... (I was 10 minutes late -coming from work). He said I had LIED about the debt that he caused me. He told the counselor (and ME After the session) that it wasn't 90k it was merely 38 and told him that I made that up. I said UGH -- YES! It is 90k. He said I never told him that. I KNOW I did...and so now the therapist thinks I'm a liar -- that he really didnt cause me THAT much debt -- and I'm addicted (obsessed) with plastic surgery.

I just realized this morning -- that it's best I take the stance that it doesn't matter any more. I know the truth. The crazy thing is I truly believe that he didn't HEAR me tell him that the debt was that high - because he was in denial. AND he told me to stop talking about it and "rubbing his nose in it". So - I never spoke of it again.

Why do I continue to fight? I don't know. Especially after being humiliated yesterday ...and then having him tell me AFTER the session that he knows the plastic surgery issue was NOT a joke.. and that I'm NOT obsessed with it ... and apologizing... 

I told him we are separated -- done -- and that he needs to take a closer look at himself to find out why he continues to hurt me and sabatoge me. He says all he wants to do is "make me happy". Well, you don't do that by telling your crying wife in therapy....that you said these horrible things because you were "joking". I opened up and said all I want from him is an apology and a SIGN that he is willing to stop being so defensive -- and that he really wants to WORK with me. That's when he continued his "joking" antics. 

He told me that he was sorry for "ruining my day"...I said you mean..."my life?" I said -- I have spent 12 years believing in you...and I wanted to be married for life... NOW -- it looks like that isn't going to happen. 

He's going to a Catholic mens' retreat for the ifrst time this weekend... should I wait to see what happens from that before I make any final decisions? Maybe God will intervene....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

what, PLEASE find yourself a new place to live. NOW. If he does love you - and I don't see it - he will FIGHT to win you back. And about damm time. 

And if he doesn't, then you'll know the truth and you can move on and find a man who will CHERISH you and not USE you.


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