# I have lost interest



## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Long story short, I recently found out about an affair that stopped happening about 8 months ago. It was between my husband and his ex. They continued their relationship for the first 2 years of our relationship. They stopped, supposedly (I've done a lot of digging too), when we got married.

So, now I am basically disgusted with him sexually. It has been 2 months and I cringe even when he tries to kiss me. I feel like I was tricked into the marriage. Had I known of this affair, obviously I wouldn't have married him.

Does anyone have experience with his? Will it go away? 

At this point I don't see the attraction coming back. It's JUST him. I still crave sex every now and again. But he turns me off.

Any input? I know that his is not a healthy first-year-of-marriage sex life.


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## x2startermom (Jan 8, 2010)

I am sorry to hear that happened to you.
if I were in your shoes I would be asking as many questions as I could think of.
O also that when you say "I feel like I was tricked into the marriage"
what do you mean.

and will the pain ever go away the answer is no but it will lessen with time and the attraction will return but it will take time.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

Thank you for your response! 



x2startermom said:


> I am sorry to hear that happened to you.
> if I were in your shoes I would be asking as many questions as I could think of.
> O also that when you say "I feel like I was tricked into the marriage"
> what do you mean.


What I meant was, I never would have married a person who had been cheating on me since day one.



x2startermom said:


> and will the pain ever go away the answer is no but it will lessen with time and the attraction will return but it will take time.


Thank you for that bit; that is exactly what I was wondering. I really wanted to know if there is a possibility that I will feel like having sex with him again. 



*If any men are reading this:* If you went from a marriage of having sex every day to a marriage of no sex (but it was because of your indiscretions) how would you handle this? He's really irritated that we weren't having sex. He claims that since the affair was 8 months ago (I only found out about it 2 months ago), that I should "get over it."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If he is not apologizing and asking YOU what HE needs to do to make YOU feel better, he is not remorseful, and he will probably do it again. Have you asked for his passwords? Do you have a keylogger installed on his computer? If he wants you to get over it, he should be taking such steps.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> If he is not apologizing and asking YOU what HE needs to do to make YOU feel better, he is not remorseful, and he will probably do it again. Have you asked for his passwords? Do you have a keylogger installed on his computer? If he wants you to get over it, he should be taking such steps.


He is profusely apologizing. He asks what needs to be done to make me feel better but he is so impatient. One moment he will be a sad puppy dog, sorry and humble, then the next when I deny him sex he gets angry and says I will never get over it and "should just leave." Whenever he says that, I pack a bag and leave for the night. Then he starts again with the apologies and the "I'll do anything please don't leave" bit.

I've had a keylogger on his computer for years. A really good one, actually - called "Spector Pro." It is seriously worth the money. But, due to me catching him numerous times using this, I feel like he just uses other computers and his phone to do anything "shady." I haven't had proof of an affair for about 7 or 8 months, but I don't doubt he's up to something. I wouldn't put it past him. Ever. He says I can look at his phone whenever I want, but he acts offended when I do. He usually keeps his message box empty.

The thing is, I actually don't think he's cheating at the moment, though. He has gained a lot of weight, he wears sweatpants ALL the time, and his keylogger shows he's almost always at home. (He's unemployed) 

I just don't feel like the sexual connection is coming back anytime soon. =/


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

as a man, i really wouldnt expect you to forgive me. i am not the type of person who could forgive that if my spouse did it, and i'm not a hypocrit


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MrsInPain said:


> He has gained a lot of weight, he wears sweatpants ALL the time, and his keylogger shows he's almost always at home. (He's unemployed)
> 
> I just don't feel like the sexual connection is coming back anytime soon. =/


My H, after 30 years, has finally gained somewhat of a belly. I never realized that it mattered to me, but it does! I cringe when he comes to bed now. Of course, I can't say anything, because I've been overweight since D19 was born, and he has never said a word. 

Physical attraction can be one of a person's top needs, from their spouse. Do you think that may be an issue for you? It can keep you from feeling close to him, if it is.

If so, he deserves to know that, so he can make a decision on whether he wants to work on it.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> My H, after 30 years, has finally gained somewhat of a belly. I never realized that it mattered to me, but it does! I cringe when he comes to bed now. Of course, I can't say anything, because I've been overweight since D19 was born, and he has never said a word.
> 
> Physical attraction can be one of a person's top needs, from their spouse. Do you think that may be an issue for you? It can keep you from feeling close to him, if it is.
> 
> If so, he deserves to know that, so he can make a decision on whether he wants to work on it.


I have told him that it would help if he was in better shape. Though, at this point I'm not sure if it would really make a huge difference. Every time he goes to touch me I *instantly* picture him having sex with the woman he cheating on me with and wonder if he made the same moves on her and etc. So, while him being in better shape would certainly be better eye candy, I don't want to make a big deal out of it because it's not his big gut that is turning me off at this point. It's his stupid mind for ever compromising our relationship with such a dumb sl*t. (pardon my language)


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

okeydokie said:


> as a man, i really wouldnt expect you to forgive me. i am not the type of person who could forgive that if my spouse did it, and i'm not a hypocrit


Thank you for that. It's always nice to see a man's perspective. I just am trying to forgive him and I know I'm supposed to forgive him "for myself" (as many self help books say), but it is much easier said than done. That's for sure!


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## x2startermom (Jan 8, 2010)

If you will ever feel the need to have sex with that man again will be all up to you.
I recommended that you two talk openly about what happened.
ask your hubby what the definition of marriage is in his opinion is.
my Hubby has put forth a radical Idea for our lives he calls it being naked here is what he means
"we cloth our self's to hide our self's from others so if we are to be completely honest with ourselves and others we need to be naked so every one else can see us for who we are not just in private but when there are others around"
here is an fyi before we had kids we were both completely naked in-front of each other so we could be as honest and be comfortable with the idea.


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## noona (Jan 6, 2010)

MrsInPain - I just learned about my wife's PA (knew about the EA for 3 months). I am starting the same issue you are having. I don't yet know how I will react to her sexually. I guess I will know tomorrow as I have made hotel reservations for Valentines Day. This news really puts a damper on things. I think you and I differ a bit in that I still want to have sex with my wife and I still think about being with her. I just haven't had a chance to see how I will react when the time comes. I'll keep you posted and will keep in touch to maybe provide you with any insight into my situation.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

noona said:


> MrsInPain - I just learned about my wife's PA (knew about the EA for 3 months). I am starting the same issue you are having. I don't yet know how I will react to her sexually. I guess I will know tomorrow as I have made hotel reservations for Valentines Day. This news really puts a damper on things. I think you and I differ a bit in that I still want to have sex with my wife and I still think about being with her. I just haven't had a chance to see how I will react when the time comes. I'll keep you posted and will keep in touch to maybe provide you with any insight into my situation.


I hope things go well for you. I read on here, somewhere (I forget) that you may want to try listening to some love songs that mean something to you two, look at some old pictures that bring up happy memories, and try to get that feeling you had in the beginning (you can do that alone too, before you go on your trip). 

I sort of ruined sex for us because I've developed a habit of instantly thinking of the PA as soon as he touches me. Please try not to do that - I may have ruined my sex life with him indefinitely. Perhaps you can go down a different road than me! Keep it light, playful and keep thinking of the happy times. 

Let us know how it goes!


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## jgn2112fletch (Feb 5, 2010)

MrsInPain said:


> *If any men are reading this:* If you went from a marriage of having sex every day to a marriage of no sex (but it was because of your indiscretions) how would you handle this? He's really irritated that we weren't having sex. He claims that since the affair was 8 months ago (I only found out about it 2 months ago), that I should "get over it."


MrsInPain, that is a tough one to answer but I'd like to at least give it a try and you can take it or leave it. My situation is a bit different because I've been giving myself wholely to my wife and practically begging her for sex and she is 100% disgusted and not interested in sex...so if I found she was cheating, I'd be gone, and yet somehow (I think justifiably) if I cheated, I think that she would be somewhat wrong to leave me...that's a whole other thread. But hopefully you get what I'm saying. but to answer yoru question directly, all things being equal, if I cheated AND I was being sexually satisfied (I'm trying to put myself in your hubby's situation) by my wife, I personally would be rocked with guilt...and if I was truly in love with you, I'd be willing to ride it out and work my ass off to right my wrong. But I would also need assurances that this wasn't going to be something you'd be holding over my head forever. Not to sound trite, but people make mistakes. Forgiveness doesn't mean you don't have to be mad, but it does mean you have to move on. And if you "forgave" me, but years from now you were still cold to me and holding that mistake over my head, I'd be apt to leave under the, "I fv(ked it up beyond repair" and probably cut my losses and just end it.
I hope that made sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you forgive him (and that has to be your choice...if he is truly sorry and is busting his ass to make up for it, then it seems reasonable) then you have to move on as well as him. I think it stands to reason that if there is any infidelity in the future there should be no discussion. It's over. Thats my opinion from a guy's point of view.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MrsInPain said:


> I sort of ruined sex for us because I've developed a habit of instantly thinking of the PA as soon as he touches me. Please try not to do that - I may have ruined my sex life with him indefinitely.


It may help for you to STOP blaming YOURSELF when it's your HUSBAND who is treating you like dirt by being a serial cheater and liar.

Seriously. What kind of therapy are you in? Cos it ain't working!

Has he done a polygraph yet?


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> It may help for you to STOP blaming YOURSELF when it's your HUSBAND who is treating you like dirt by being a serial cheater and liar.
> 
> Seriously. What kind of therapy are you in? Cos it ain't working!
> 
> Has he done a polygraph yet?


Thank you.. & the "therapy" I've had has been a joke. He has been seeing a therapist (she's basically a family counselor) for 10 months now to deal SPECIFICALLY with his lying issues. (His dad funded it because he stole a bunch from his dad)

Long story short - when I found out about the A 2 or so months ago, I started going with him for some sessions (about 6 or 7 sessions). I found that she was very sympathetic of him, even though he has displayed (and continues to display) an extreme amount of narcissistic behavior. She basically told me to put his infidelity in the past, which normally I would agree with... but it is very hard as he continues to lie to me about various things (DAILY). Infidelity and lying go hand in hand. She was after all HIS therapist and not mine. So I think I need to get my own. 

Funny you mention the polygraph, I just got him to agree to taking one yesterday. Now I have to book it. None of the websites list prices. Does anyone know how much a test costs on average? I have about 20 questions drafted. Somewhere around 15 of them are specific questions about various females I'm sure he boinked. Just in case he passes the "have you cheated on your wife sine [date]" question.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I wouldn't waste time on past women, unless you really need to know. I'd focus my questions on how and when he lies, so that you can get an idea of whether -if at ALL - you could ever trust him again.

And if you still talk to his therapist, ask her to justify how to 'accept' his infidelity if it is key to WHO HE IS.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> I wouldn't waste time on past women, unless you really need to know. I'd focus my questions on how and when he lies, so that you can get an idea of whether -if at ALL - you could ever trust him again.
> 
> And if you still talk to his therapist, ask her to justify how to 'accept' his infidelity if it is key to WHO HE IS.


You're right. I guess I don't need to know each girl. I guess subconsciously maybe I was trying to find out how MUCH he has lied and how often, but I pretty much know that already. 

And I love your suggestion about what to ask the therapist. I stopped going a few weeks ago, because it was frustrating for me to sit there and let her make up excuses for him. But perhaps I will prepare some notes and go again this Tuesday.


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

MrsInPain said:


> Funny you mention the polygraph, I just got him to agree to taking one yesterday. Now I have to book it. None of the websites list prices. Does anyone know how much a test costs on average? I have about 20 questions drafted. Somewhere around 15 of them are specific questions about various females I'm sure he boinked. Just in case he passes the "have you cheated on your wife sine [date]" question.


Taking the tea leaves to Professor Trelawney is just as good and probably cheaper. Polygraph "experts" will tell you those things work, of course, but that's because they get paid to give the tests. Executives from tobacco companies insist that smoking isn't bad for you, but you don't trust them, do you?

Besides, all that is backward-looking: your problem is about what's going to happen in the _future_. And even if a lie detector worked, he can't lie about an unknown future. When they ask "Are you determined never to cheat on your wife again?", and he says "Yes", he'll probably be telling the truth.

If you're really looking for mechanical help in making sure he keeps his penis out of places it's not supposed to go, you should probably just buy some sort of chastity device and lock it on him.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

artieb said:


> Taking the tea leaves to Professor Trelawney is just as good and probably cheaper. Polygraph "experts" will tell you those things work, of course, but that's because they get paid to give the tests. Executives from tobacco companies insist that smoking isn't bad for you, but you don't trust them, do you?
> 
> Besides, all that is backward-looking: your problem is about what's going to happen in the _future_. And even if a lie detector worked, he can't lie about an unknown future. When they ask "Are you determined never to cheat on your wife again?", and he says "Yes", he'll probably be telling the truth.
> 
> If you're really looking for mechanical help in making sure he keeps his penis out of places it's not supposed to go, you should probably just buy some sort of chastity device and lock it on him.


I have to admit... I was a little confused by your post. Are you saying you don't think polygraph tests work? I think polygraph tests are far more reliable than reading tea leaves. 

On that note, to a certain degree, I think they do work. Either way, I understand your point about looking forward. It would, however, benefit me to know if his affair continued after the day he said it ended, or is still occurring.


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

MrsInPain said:


> Are you saying you don't think polygraph tests work?


That is exactly what I am saying. Polygraph tests are snake oil.

Guilty people are known to have passed polygraph tests only to be finally caught later. Had the authorities not believed the polygraph, the criminals would have been stopped sooner (and in some cases, lives could have been spared).

Other people have failed polygraph tests and lost their jobs or otherwise suffered serious disruption, even though no concrete evidence of their alleged crimes ever surfaced.

Polygraph tests are pseudoscientific claptrap. The reason you believe they work is that the people who make money selling them are convincing salesmen. There is no good reason to believe that polygraph machines work, and plenty of examples where they have failed miserably.

Learn How to Pass (or Beat) a Polygraph Test | AntiPolygraph.org

CSI | Polygraphs and the National Labs: Dangerous Ruse Undermines National Security

Too Hot of a Potato: A Citizen Soldier's Encounter With the Polygraph


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## Mal74 (Dec 24, 2009)

My perceptions are often wrong and especially so when they're built on reading internet message board posts. That said, I see a few things here. 

One, the guy seems to have a history of dishonest behavior that extends beyond the sexual realm.

Two, he's unemployed, and if I know anything about men at all, I know that there's nothing like a period of unemployment to put pressure on a man's ego. Unemployment hurts, and men who are unprepared or unwilling to process that hurt and take action often end up doing some odd behavior (maybe your guy is working hard to get working again, in which case, good for him for being healthy about it... but, you tell me).

Three, he's out of shape, and his physical condition is turning you off. I wouldn't be surprised if it's bugging him, too.

In my opinion you need to tackle these things separately even though they probably do all intersect in your sexual response to him. I think you need to pick some areas where he can demonstrate to you that he is honest AND making an effort - not to please you or pacify you, but to take control of his own life and to "win" through honest effort.

Physical condition can be an easy place to start because men see real results here reasonably quickly. He can see a nutritionist and/or hire a trainer, or if money's tight you can get on a diet (lean proteins, lots of fruit & fresh veggies, low-glycemic carbohydrates) and hit the gym or whatnot. If he makes some commitments and keeps them, he'll feel better about himself and you will see that he is capable of being honest about something.

Then, of course, the job thing. He'll have to deal with that however he does, and since I don't know the details I will leave it by saying that this is another area where honest effort might pay more dividends than first appear. 

Finally I agree with Artie that you would benefit from focusing on the future, rather than the past. The truth is that you are never really, truly going to know every detail of the what, when, how, where, and with whom of everything he's done. Digging for more than you already know is, in all likelihood, going to make you feel worse because you'll keep finding more threads that you feel like you absolutely have to follow.

Believe me - I have absolutely been there and I know that gut-churning, sick feeling of finding out about an affair and wanting to know absolutely everything. It's torture. In the end, we live our lives into the future that we are creating. So you can decide what to create, and then have that. Simple, but definitely NOT easy at all.

I'd really try to help him onto a positive path. The therapist sounds like a dead-end to me, but I think there are other areas where he can make real, meaningful gains that both of you will benefit from.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'll respectfully disagree about the polygraph's validity. Of course there are those who are psychologically superior to them and can play them; but I'll bet there are more who are just normal people who will blow it. One of my friends is a specialist with the government who does these things, and I can tell you that he indeed does rely on polygraphs to get the information they need.

Anyway, the reason I suggest the polygraph is if she is planning on keeping him. If she's leaving him, there's no point. But if she's staying, having a better handle on exactly what IS going on in their marriage can give her education and ammunition to protect herself. If she knows what kinds of things he lies about, she can protect herself in the future on [i[those[/i] types of things when they come up. Plus, there may be some things that she _thinks_ she knows the truth on, and may be surprised to learn that those things, too, are not true. Kind of like a ground zero, or a base set of statistics: as of today, he hasn't spoken to ABC since November; as of today, he is up to date on his bills and there are no back taxes waiting to *** me on the head...stuff like that.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

nice777guy, 

What you said actually made me smile. He was cheating for about a year, and I've been disgusted for about 2 and a half months. So we've got 9 and a half months to go! 

Mal74,

Thank you for your response. A lot of what you said makes sense, and in a way I think it's the natural way of dealing with this. 

With respect to his work, he had a great chance to be in business with his dad and sort of "take over" when his dad passes. However, he royally F-ed that up, and didn't have a backup plan. So he is enrolled in college now. We'll see how that goes. 

As far as his physical condition, I've been trying to help him eat healthier. I think he's an emotional eater, but but it all sort of comes down to will power. He's realllllllyyyy lazy. I've told him numerous times, he'll be surprised at how big of a difference being in shape makes. Hopefully he tackles this soon.

As far as his dishonesty with regard to life in general, I ultimately think we DO need to find another therapist. It's just REALLY unfortunate because we've invested 10 months in this one! Argh!

I have been sort of on his case about getting his sh*t together and going down the right path. It always seems like it's one step forward, two steps back. He'll register for classes or send out some resumes then I'll find out he's lying/stealing from his dad again.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> I'll respectfully disagree about the polygraph's validity. Of course there are those who are psychologically superior to them and can play them; but I'll bet there are more who are just normal people who will blow it. One of my friends is a specialist with the government who does these things, and I can tell you that he indeed does rely on polygraphs to get the information they need.
> 
> Anyway, the reason I suggest the polygraph is if she is planning on keeping him. If she's leaving him, there's no point. But if she's staying, having a better handle on exactly what IS going on in their marriage can give her education and ammunition to protect herself. If she knows what kinds of things he lies about, she can protect herself in the future on [i[those[/i] types of things when they come up. Plus, there may be some things that she _thinks_ she knows the truth on, and may be surprised to learn that those things, too, are not true. Kind of like a ground zero, or a base set of statistics: as of today, he hasn't spoken to ABC since November; as of today, he is up to date on his bills and there are no back taxes waiting to *** me on the head...stuff like that.


:iagree:

However, like you have advised, I will try to keep it about NOW, not the past. It will be nice to have a clear view what's going on now and when was the last time this or that happened so I can build on things from there.

Even though I've been advised (with good reason) by several people on this board to LEAVE NOW, it's not realistic for me right now. I'm at the point though, where I can honestly say I am prepared for anything and if I found out he was cheating today I wouldn't be surprised or hurt any more than I already have been. I am focusing on making my life better, which means finishing school (I am so close to being done!) and trying to push him in the right direction. If he is not on board when I'm ready to take off into the next stage of life, then I will leave. If he, by some miracle of God, is ready and changed, then he will accompany me. 

(Okay that sounded really cheesy but oh well!)


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## ommbic (Feb 15, 2010)

an affair is an affair whether it was 8 minutes ago or 8 yrs ago it wouldnt be forgoten my dad cheated on my mom back in the 80's there are still together but my mom still doesnt trust him till this day so its truelly up to you how long it will take to "Get over it" so just take your time heck my mom is still taking hers


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I have no problems with making a plan. If you can still stand to be in the same house with him, by all means, keep working on your degree so you can leave on a better first step. Who knows? Maybe college will change him. 

In his defense, at least he's going to college. That says a lot to me, for ANY person.


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

turnera said:


> I'll respectfully disagree about the polygraph's validity. Of course there are those who are psychologically superior to them and can play them; but I'll bet there are more who are just normal people who will blow it. One of my friends is a specialist with the government who does these things, and I can tell you that he indeed does rely on polygraphs to get the information they need.


So what? We don't decide the facts based on government statement. The FBI crime lab has been exposed more than once as faking test results and lying about evidence in order to get a conviction. The judge in the Brandon Mayfield case ruled that the evidence had been, and I quote exactly "fabricated and concocted by the FBI and DOJ". They didn't care about catching the right guy or finding the truth: they cared about getting a conviction so they could make the crime stats look good.

One benefit of living in the modern world is that instead of just believing whatever we're told, we can do an actual scientific test and find out for ourselves. The National Academy of Sciences and the United States Congress Office of Technology Assessment have both concluded that polygraphs are insufficiently accurate to justify the reliance on them for security screening.

If polygraph machines were medical devices, the FDA wouldn't let anybody sell them, because they haven't been shown to work.

Believe whatever you want. Buy an e-meter and a book on phrenology and Spectro-Chrome machine if you like. But don't say "the government uses it, so it must be good!" This is the same government that still thinks the National Terrorism Mood Ring is a good idea.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

um...ok? I gather you believe the feds staged 9/11, too?

fwiw, I've seen more spouses know they're about to have to take a polygraph and then fess up BEFORE the appointment, than those who went through it and gave up good information. Usually, just the expectation that they're about to get outed has the most effect.


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## MrsInPain (Feb 5, 2010)

turnera said:


> um...ok? I gather you believe the feds staged 9/11, too?
> 
> fwiw, I've seen more spouses know they're about to have to take a polygraph and then fess up BEFORE the appointment, than those who went through it and gave up good information. Usually, just the expectation that they're about to get outed has the most effect.


LOL. That's pretty much what I was hoping for and/or expecting. I was thinking of purposely booking the appointment about an hour away so that on the drive over he'd fess up and save me the $. Only in a perfect world. Le sigh.

I'd still probably go through with the test though. I'll admit, seeing him extremely nervous would give me a tiiiiiiiiny bit of satisfaction.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

MrsInPain,
I feel awful for you and I agree that an affair is an affair whether it happened 20 years ago or 20 minutes ago. Why? Because betrayal is betrayal. 
Now as for the polygraph, I say do it. My best friend did it and got all the answers she needed. She is trying hard to make her marriage work yet the polygraph is also a bit of a backup plan for her in case it does not. It cost $400. 
I don't know where you are in terms of working on your relationship. Infidelity is crushing to say the very least. My two cents, you are a very beautiful woman who clearly has put up with an awful lot in your relationship. Maybe it is time to reevaluate? 
Again, I am not sure where you are at.
Wishing you the very best and sending you a giant cyber hug!


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

"And if you still talk to his therapist, ask her to justify how to 'accept' his infidelity if it is key to WHO HE IS."

Being new here I have no idea how do put the former post in pink shading so I apologize in advance.

I just saw this part of a comment by another poster and I couldn't agree more. Since you believe that he has been with other women and one woman since the whole of your relationship I would definately ask that question of the unsympathetic and frankly irritating therapist who seems to be defending your partner. It is a pattern it appears. At least to me. Patterns happen for a reason. Something in him makes it okay to continue to cheat and lie. Stealing is another element too. Perhaps self-entitlement or as you touched on, total narcissm. It's all about him. Add to that him saying that you need to "get over it" it rings loudly to me that he is totally self absorbed. He doesn't want you to dwell on it because it makes HIM feel bad. 
Going back to the polygraph, my friend's husband actually DID confess to everything on the car ride to the appointment. So yes, many do. They finally realize that you are serious about this ****. She made him do it anyways. 
Again, I am so sorry you are hurting. I would also give some serious thought to a new counselor for him. The current one almost seems (IMO) to excuse his behavior. A really good counselor would delve deep into him and get him to explore why he would repeatedly hurt the people he loves. A good counselor would call him out on his ****. Make him own up to what he did/is doing. It is about manning up to the pain he has caused, the people he has lied to and the destruction he has caused. Only after he does that can he possibly start to look within and figure out WHY he does this to those he loves.


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

turnera said:


> um...ok? I gather you believe the feds staged 9/11, too?


I'm sorry, I didn't realize this was time to be needlessly insulting. Brandon Mayfield got a $2million settlement from the federal government because, according to the court, the FBI made up evidence. Do you think that didn't happen, or that the feds paid off because the FBI had extra money laying around that they didn't need, or what?

I notice that, though you had time to make fun of me, you didn't respond to my citations of the National Academy of Science or the Office of Technology Assessment. I also notice that you didn't manage to cite any studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals that give concrete support to the validity of polygraph machines, either.

I don't ask anyone to trust me or my opinions: you can read the NAS study for yourself.

Feel free to refer us to a counter-study from a peer-reviewed scientific journal, or from an independent group with the standing of the NAS, which supports your view. Assuming, of course, you can find one, and you can afford to take the time away from your important tasks of making fun of me and making a joke about the deaths of thousands of people in a terrorist attack.



> fwiw, I've seen more spouses know they're about to have to take a polygraph and then fess up BEFORE the appointment, than those who went through it and gave up good information. Usually, just the expectation that they're about to get outed has the most effect.


Nobody denies that the _belief_ in polygraph machines is powerful. It's not unlike the placebo effect: people who think they'll get caught lying give themselves away to the interrogator, in the same way that people who believe a sugar pill is a painkiller report that their pain goes away.

That's why you put your hand on the Bible when you testify in court: the _belief_ that you'll get in trouble for swearing falsely puts emotional pressure on you. It probably worked once, and probably still works on people who are particularly religious and/or superstitious. But that doesn't mean that swearing on a Bible has any special power to compel truth out of a witness.

And in the same way, a polygraph machine doesn't do anything like detect lies. The emotional pressure of the interrogation has vastly more to do with it than the machine, which is essentially an expensive prop, and which would work just as well no matter what you hooked it up to or what kind of lines it drew.

If MrsInPain just wants her husband interrogated by an expert, and thinks the placebo effect of a polygraph machine will help pressure him into being honest, then she should go ahead. And she should take care to ensure that her husband absolutely believes that polygraph machines work, because otherwise the placebo effect will fail.

But she should do so fully aware that the two principle groups which advise the government about science and technology have concluded that polygraph machines don't work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Why would I waste more of MIP's thread to argue something we obviously have differing views on? Does her no good. I don't know what your issue with the government is, but it has nothing to do with helping her.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I have to admit I struggle with the polygraph, but for a different reason.

If it's gotten that bad then maybe its just time to move on. Let's say he passes "this one" - it doesn't mean he won't lie again. Then what? Routine polygraph tests? What kind of marriage is that?

Call me stupid or foolish (heard it before) - but I've been surprised at how good my "gut" has been during the last 9 months. Maybe I haven't caught everything, but I've caught enough. Most of us KNOW the people we married, and most of us who have been lied to start to keep our eyes open as a matter of instinct. We KNOW when a story doesn't add up.

We may not always know the truth, but we know when we are being lied to. It may take a bit longer, but it seems the truth usually comes out without taking things to the extreme.


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

turnera said:


> Why would I waste more of MIP's thread to argue something we obviously have differing views on? Does her no good. I don't know what your issue with the government is, but it has nothing to do with helping her.


And how does a polygraph test help her? What happens after the polygraph test is over? Even if I believed the thing worked, which I don't, I certainly wouldn't believe it was 100% reliable. So what is she gonna do about the results of a test which may be wrong?

Suppose the machine says he's telling the truth, but she finds unexplained condoms in MrInPain's pocket? Suppose the machine says he's lying, and he insists that the machine is wrong? Does she believe him or the machine? And what is she going to do about it?

Remember, a polygraph doesn't detect _lies_, it detects _emotional reactions_. He may feel so guilty about what happened that there's no way he'll pass the test, even if he tells only the truth.

Suppose he tells the truth and flunks, and she never forgives him or trusts him again, and he divorces her. Then she reads accounts from innocent people who flunked polygraph tests, and decides that maybe she made a mistake which is now too late to fix. What will you say then to make her feel better?

What is she going to do _after_ the test? And is she prepared to live with that outcome even if the test is wrong?

The polygraph test isn't going to be the end of this story. So MrsInPain, and perhaps her anonymous advisor who supports the test based on his supposed expertise in the reliability of polygraph machines, should probably do some thinking about what happens after the test is over. She should be sure that the responsibility of ending the marriage based on a possibly-incorrect result is something she's willing to live with.

Is advising her to do that something you're willing to live with?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm advising her to tell her husband that she's no longer willing to accept his BS. Insisting on a polygraph is just part of a united front of standing up for herself, which she has been seriously missing and is in fact part of the reason he feels so free to walk all over her.

Frankly, it doesn't even matter what happens in the polygraph; him knowing she's had it with him is the ultimate goal. I hardly think she is _stupid_ enough to base her future life on what comes out of a polygraph. At this stage in her life, just standing up to him by insisting on it is the best benefit.

Seriously, what is it with you? Did you get scr&wed over once because of a polygraph?


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

turnera said:


> Seriously, what is it with you? Did you get scr&wed over once because of a polygraph?


A good friend of mine lost his job because of a polygraph test which he failed. It was proved months later that he wasn't the one stealing from our employer, but by then he had suffered pretty badly.

I worked for a US government agency once, and had to take training with the Nuclear Regulatory Commission on handling of radioactive materials. I found out during training that several of the procedures in my department were improper, and was told to keep quiet about it. Our manager had learned the old way, and that's how he wanted us to do it. Eventually, the NRC sent an inspection team around and found out, and our department was fined.

To make that clear, one branch of the US government fined another branch, so your tax money was used by the government to pay a fine to itself. And the reason was that even though the NRC had set new rules in place that were consistent with the best available scientific information, other parts of the federal government were still doing things the old way.

So, when I read that the science advisors to the government say we shouldn't be using polygraph machines, and that other branches of the government are still using polygraph machines, it's not exactly a surprise. It happens all the time that the guys who do the research are ignored, for political reasons, or because the boss likes the old way, or just because the papers don't get filed right.

Ordinary police work could have caught Aldrich Ames, but the CIA used polygraph machines and Ames got away with spying for years longer than he should have. A proper investigation at my old employer would have caught the real thief, and in the end it was regular investigation by a PI firm that _did_ catch the real thief. But because management believed in polygraph machines as a quick-and-easy shortcut, my friend got fired and suffered terribly as a result. Getting straight to our current thread, his wife almost left him because she believed the machine; she didn't want to be married to a thief. He didn't take that well, and it got ugly. The managed to work it out, but not without a lot of pain on both sides.

If MrsInPain is going to follow the results of the polygraph test no matter what, then she runs the risk of _both_ ending the marriage even though her husband is actually reformed, _and_ staying with him even though he's still cheating. I've seen both kinds of errors happen with my own eyes.

If she's not going to follow the results no matter what, then she'd be better off having him followed, putting a keylogger on his computer, and otherwise doing normal investigative routines instead of depending on a shortcut.

And if she really wants to get the message across to him that she's fed up, locking a chastity device on him seems like it would send that message pretty plainly.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry about your friend. 

But I've seen a lot of marriages get turned around simply because the betrayed spouse put their foot down and demanded a polygraph. Like I said, and as MIP has agreed, it's more about the psychology involved than the test results. Her husband needs to see that she's done - done being his doormat. Taking such a bold step is a VERY clear indicator that she's not going to put up with his BS any more. It probably isn't even going to matter what goes on in that room, because she'll have made her point - she ALSO has power in their marriage: the power of leaving him. 

Another important factor with having to take a polygraph is that there is a very subtle shift of control in the marriage when this takes place. Wayward spouses often have a lofty mindset that keeps them from having to face their own trail of destruction; doing something like a polygraph is a VERY REAL way to bring him down to the level of the rest of us mere mortals. Yes it can be humiliating; I daresay that's something he has never experienced in this marriage, from what she says; he has always had the power, she has always kissed up to him. If she finally says enough - and he acquiesces - it may help him to realize he is only human and doesn't just 'deserve' her unconditional love.


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## artieb (Nov 11, 2009)

I let this sit for a little while so I could get some distance.



turnera said:


> I'm sorry about your friend.


It's worse than you know: I believed the polygraph operator. I stopped talking to my friend because, in my view, he wouldn't be straight with me. I said things like "If you needed money, why didn't you ask me? I'd have helped." He protested his innocence. I said things like "You don't have to lie anymore; it's in the open now. I won't think less of you: just be honest with me." But he maintained his innocence, and so I became disgusted with him. He wouldn't even be honest with me after it was all out in the open.

But he was being honest with me. Everybody in his life turned their backs on him, he lost his job, we all hated him for lying to us. He needed a friend, and I failed him, and our friendship never recovered from it.

After the truth came out, I started thinking about what happened. There was a man I had known for a years and who had, so far as I know, never lied to me or done anything dishonest. There was another man, a complete stranger, with a fancy box that made squiggly lines on paper. I had no information about how, or whether, the polygraph had been calibrated or by whom. I knew nothing about what training, if any, the operator had. (To this day, I still don't know if the real thief just paid the guy off, to name someone else.) But I took the word of a complete stranger over that of a man I'd known for years, and why? Because the stranger had an interesting prop, that's why. If he had been standing there was a bottle of truth serum, or something, I wouldn't have trusted him. So why did I trust him when his prop is electronic instead of chemical?
I had no reason, none whatever, to believe that a polygraph machine was actually able to detect lies. And no reason, none whatever, to believe that the man who operated it was more honest than my friend was.

So why did I believe him? Because "everybody knows" that lie detectors work. But lots of things that "everybody knows" are wrong. "Everybody knows" is not a reason to believe something.

There is not one independent double-blind study that I have been able to find anywhere which supports the claim that polygraph machines are reliable lie detectors. Not one. The history of government reliance on polygraph machines would be funny if the issues weren't so serious. Several high-profile spies got away with their crimes for years because they passed polygraph tests. The FBI just closed the case on the anthrax mailings of 2001, and identified the man they say is guilty. It took over 8 years, because they relied on a polygraph test, which he passed. If the had bothered to read the government's own studies about polygraphs, they wouldn't have used one as a shortcut. Then they could have done their job properly.

About twenty years ago, there was a Frontline documentary about "facilitated communication", a way to help autistic people communicate. Doctoral theses were written about it; it was a major breakthrough. But it was a complete illusion: the autistic patients were not communicating with anyone. Legions of professionals in the field of psychiatry were completely taken in by a fiction. And when the "facilitated communication" system started cranking out accusations of sexual abuse, people got in really big trouble with the law. The only evidence of any abuse happening at all, let alone naming who'd done it, came from people who only a few years before had been classed as completely incommunicative. Now their "testimony", which in fact they had no input on whatever, was sufficiently acceptable that people got arrested, weren't allowed back in their own homes, and lost fortunes on lawyers defending themselves against charges about completely fictional crimes. (The title is "Prisoners of Silence", and it's on Google Video. Here's a link to the transcript: FRONTLINE: previous reports: transcripts: prisoners of silence | PBS) If you read/watch it, it's chilling to see what the people say: _My first reaction was, "Why would we ever want to test it? It's working."_ She's supposed to be a scientist, yet she saw no need to do a test and find out whether what she thinks is right. Terrific.

Facilitated communication never once passed a double-blind test which showed that it actually worked. Never once. But people went to jail, families split up, and piles of money were lost to lawyers as innocent people had to defend themselves against phony charges. Facilitated Communication was a complete, unscientific, unsupportable, fiction. But because enough credulous people believed it without bothering to check it out, innocents suffered horribly.

There is no more reason to believe that polygraph machines are lie detectors than there was to believe in facilitated communication. Not one thing. Neither has ever been demonstrated to work in a double-blind test. Both have failed spectacularly in high-profile criminal cases involving accusations of serious crimes. The only reason either was ever taken seriously is because enough credulous people believed in them without bothering to do a test.

I was one of those credulous people. I hurt someone who had been close to me, and I paid a heavy price for it. I won't be one of those people again. And nobody else should be one, either.

I'm sorry about MrsInPain's problem, I really am. If I could make it go away, I would. And if I were in her shoes, I'd probably want some sort of easy answer too. If a snazzy prop puts a lot of psychological pressure on her husband and changes the way he behaves, great.

But she should understand that it's nothing but a snazzy prop, like Tarot cards or crystals from a New Age Health Shop, or something. The machine puts psychological pressure on people because they believe it works, and that psychological pressure can be useful.

But the idea that the machine actually _works_ is a fiction. In terms of actually identifying a lie from the truth, it would be just as good to flip a coin.


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## Flanders (Feb 26, 2010)

My neighbor is going through the same thing right now, she is staying with him and spending all of his money. Get what you can out of it.


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## AJ2010 (Apr 2, 2010)

As a man, I have to say I can totally understand what you are feeling. I recently found out my wife was having an EA and although she has cut off all contact with TOM, I find myself thinking about all the texts I found on her phone and what might have taken place with all the calls she was making to him over the last 2 months.
Even though your H's affair may have ended months ago, its still hard to truly forgive, and forgetting is next to impossible, at least at this stage of the game. If you want it to work you're going to have to eventually get over the imaginings (real word?) you have about him and his ex. I believe sex is a very important part of marriage (I am a man! ) and if you withhold it for too long, he obviously has a willing woman waiting in the background.
I don't mean to sound insensitive, but you may end up having to fake it through and "take one for the team" if you hope to make your marriage work. I'm not saying roll over every time he wants sex, but you will have to show him what he has been missing!
Try to find a time when you're both calm and explain to him why you are having a tough time with sex. Maybe you can start by just allowing him to cuddle with you and that's it. No fondling and maybe even no kissing at first. Just get used to the fact that he's holding you. When you start to think about her, focus on the fact that he's with YOU, and not with her. When you can do that without images of them together flashing through your mind, you could let him know you're ready to move forward, but only a little, and allow him to kiss you. Get through that and allow him to touch you in a more intimate manner, and eventually work back into sex. Take a week, or a month, or 6 months - whatever it takes for YOU to feel comfortable again.
Once you do allow sex, don't worry about him, focus on what YOU are feeling. Allow yourself to enjoy it and concentrate on the pleasure you're feeling. Don't look at him, don't think about him. Hell, maybe think about another man you find attractive and imagine its him you're making love with!
This might not work for you. I'm no therapist! But I think its a good option to try. If you can't get those images out of your head, you might need to consider a therapist of your own, and maybe even divorce, as a last resort. One thing you will have to keep in mind is that since TOW is the mother of his child, he WILL continue to have contact with her. If you can't live with that, and I imagine it would be difficult, his infidelity may be unforgivable.
Wish you the best. 
PS - Please don't think I'm putting any of the blame on you! You didn't do anything wrong! I know its got to be hard on you, and I hope you at least consider this an honest attempt at helping. If you don't like the advice, or think it won't work, my feelings won't be hurt.  Like I said, I'm not a therapist!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Just a gentle suggestion on this. Love is highly asymmetrical. Your weight might not have bothered him at all - or it did but he didn't speak. Start by asking him about that. 

But tactfully TELL him his weight bothers you. Just tell him. One reason sex is so plentiful in our home is that the house rule is totally open honest communication about sex - turn ons and turn offs. 

It TOTALLY hurt my feelings when wife was turned off by my weight - too thin - but it was so worth the effort to pack on 20 pounds of mostly muscle which she just loves. 

Sure I could have played the "you are shallow" game but what would that accomplish? She doesn't choose to be turned on/off by my weight she just is. Twenty pounds on my frame makes a big difference and I love that she is turned on by me now. 





turnera said:


> My H, after 30 years, has finally gained somewhat of a belly. I never realized that it mattered to me, but it does! I cringe when he comes to bed now. Of course, I can't say anything, because I've been overweight since D19 was born, and he has never said a word.
> 
> Physical attraction can be one of a person's top needs, from their spouse. Do you think that may be an issue for you? It can keep you from feeling close to him, if it is.
> 
> If so, he deserves to know that, so he can make a decision on whether he wants to work on it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh, it's not that big a deal to me. I'll take him however he is. My D19 and I have been getting him to to go the gym with us, and that's fine with me. He'll never be a sports person or exercise person. D19, however, has come up with the perfect solution. She is finding him a puppy!


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## w.s.winstonsarah (May 4, 2010)

MrsInPain 
I was wondering how things were going I have noticed you havent posted in a while, I hope that they are for the better for you, I hate that anyone has to go through such a roller coaster ride with feelings and emotions it these situations.


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