# Pleasing your wife?



## pag1617

Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge. I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from. 

P.S.- Also, despite all the time I spend working, she is always complaining about how we can't go do enough or get enough new stuff and complains about the house I work hard to have bought, and the car. It's like nothing is ever enough with her. Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?


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## TheTruthHurts

She's a kid who needs to grow up


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## tech-novelist

How's your sex life?


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## Diana7

Why hasnt she got a job?


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## arbitrator

*In addition to the questions above: Do the two of you have designated "date nights!" *


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## pag1617

Sex life is awful lately, she pushes to have kids as soon as possible but I feel we need time to develop as a couple before we take that step. She has been off of birth control so we haven't been taking any risks. And yes we do have set date nights, Friday evening we like to get dinner then get a movie to watch at home. Weekends we often spend a lot of time together running errands, or just relaxing at home. And she does have a job, however it is a new company and work is slowly increasing. She didn't have a job for a while since she was focusing on getting education taken care of


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## Faithful Wife

I would suggest reading the book Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.

In that book, the author explains the concepts of caving and rubberbanding.

Caving is the time a man (or woman) needs to feed his soul. He explains that men need alone time for hobbies or just to let go of everything in their minds through reading or watching sports or whatever. He explains it in a way that made me really understand my husband's need to cave sometimes. It doesn't refer to an actual man cave or physical space, it is a mental space. But typically the man does require some time completely alone to get to his mental cave, and that may include going to a physical cave.

Rubberbanding is part of the intimacy cycle most males experience. Men love to pursue and get the girl. Then once they have her, they get very close to her and allow themselves to be open and vulnerable through intimacy. Then after this deep intimacy, the man feels the need to pull away, ie: rubberbanding. This pulling away comes from the man's natural desire to feel his own autonomy again after feeling that deep intimacy (women sometimes do this, too). The author explains that this is normal and is not due to fear of intimacy, but rather comes from the very healthy desire to be autonomous, (even though also remain committed and monogamous). So after a time of close intimacy with a woman, which could be just one evening or maybe a long romantic vacation, the man will frequently automatically pull away for a short time afterwards and he may go to his cave. When a man can feel his autonomy again after rubberbanding, he then feels the desire to be close and intimate again, so he pursues his woman again. When he does this, he may actually come rushing back toward her. Thus the pulling away and then snapping back, ie: a rubberband.

These concepts certainly apply to a lot of women, and don't apply to all men. But as a woman who has been with men who absolutely did exactly what the book described about caving and rubberbanding, it was an excellent resource for me and I have a much better understanding of men ever since reading it.

The author also described how most women respond to caving and rubberbanding...most of us feel hurt, slighted, abandoned, and pissed. Especially rubberbanding, because it comes after close intimacy. To a woman it can feel like "how could he get so close to me and then suddenly pull back so far?" The woman will sometimes then chase the man, asking for answers, demanding a good reason for his pulling away. She may do this while he is just caving, too.

When I fully understood that doing any kind of chasing or shaming of my man while he was caving or rubberbanding, I stopped shooting myself in the foot like that. I was able to just say to myself "I get it, he wants to feel his autonomy again" and I would then relish in feeling my own autonomy again, too. I would do my own thing and not worry anymore about why he pulled away. I knew he would come snapping back to me once his rubberband had stretched out far enough, and he always did. In fact, it was excellent, because we could then play the pursuit game over and over, which is so much fun. You can't pursue someone if they are not at least a tiny distance away from you....so caving and rubberbanding are the perfect way to keep just enough distance to allow him to pursue me again.

Some men of course are not really rubberbanding and caving, they are just neglecting or ignoring their wives. If that is the case, then the book won't help and could actually hurt because it may make a man think this is ok and blame it on caving or rubberbanding. But from your first post, I assume that isn't you.

If you read the book and got the concepts down, you would also learn a lot about her in the process. And if she would read it with you, you two could learn them together and support each other more.

https://www.amazon.com/Men-Mars-Women-Venus-Understanding/dp/0060574216


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## pag1617

Thank you Faithful Wife for your thoughtful response, I will have to look into that book for us


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## 225985

Read Five Love Languages. Her main love language is Quality Time. She needs/wants your time and attention more than your money. My W is like that. 

Understand this or your marriage will never work. 

Google Five Love Languages. There is even a free app. Take the quiz with her. You will learn a lot. 


Btw is she in school?


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## Spicy

I would have to guess that your wife is very young. 

As a wife whose husband has encouraged me to work less because the need is not there financially, AND he knows how much I love to be a wife and mom, I will give you my take on this.

I love taking care of him. He doesn't help me with any of the inside housework. He handles all the outside and everything else in our life (like it sounds like you do). When he wants time to play his games (albeit rare and in small spurts) I leave him to decompress and go in another room and do what I want to do. Also, when he opts to play a dvr'd show that he knows I don't like (Moonshiners or Duck Dynasty types) I read that as he would like some alone time.

Who doesn't need some alone time??? 

The thought of threatening divorce over that a year into marriage is really disturbing. Wrap it up careful my friend during that lousy sex, you don't want a pregnancy at this point. Your future baby mama needs to get past being a baby before she should be a mama.


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## sokillme

pag1617 said:


> Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge. I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from.
> 
> P.S.- Also, despite all the time I spend working, she is always complaining about how we can't go do enough or get enough new stuff and complains about the house I work hard to have bought, and the car. It's like nothing is ever enough with her. Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?



Why isn't she working. Maybe then you wouldn't have to work so hard and you both could have some free time. As I have read story after story on here and elsewhere, unless there are kids I do not believe this kind of imbalance in a relationship is a good thing. It almost always leads to entitlement. Her not working is preventing her from growing up and keeping her in a kind of arrested development state. IMHO. A real job would force her to grow up.

DON'T HAVE KIDS YET!

What are your ages OP?


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## arbitrator

pag1617 said:


> Sex life is awful lately, she pushes to have kids as soon as possible but I feel we need time to develop as a couple before we take that step. *She has been off of birth control so we haven't been taking any risks.* And yes we do have set date nights, Friday evening we like to get dinner then get a movie to watch at home. Weekends we often spend a lot of time together running errands, or just relaxing at home. And she does have a job, however it is a new company and work is slowly increasing. She didn't have a job for a while since she was focusing on getting education taken care of


*"Off" of birth control and you're not taking any risks?*


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## WorkingWife

When she does have your attention what are you two doing? Are you spending nice, quality time together with intimate conversation, connecting? Because she sounds like a whiny brat, but it also sounds like she is not really in love with you right now, despite all you're doing for her. A woman who is in love with her husband doesn't complain about the house and everything else because she is happy and so who really cares about those things?

I like the Men are from Mars book idea. Also, check this out, especially Basic Concept #4 the policy of undivided attention: A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

They say women typically need 15 hours a week of undivided attention to feel in love. Things like watching TV and cleaning the house don't count as your "attention" is not undivided. If you can get her to be in love that would solve your problem. If it turns out the problem is that she is just the type of woman for whom nothing is ever enough, then just make sure you don't have kids...

You also might check out a book called "No more Mr. Nice guy" - I've never read it (plus I'm a woman) but I've seen it recommended to men a lot when they are in a situation where their wife is walking all over them and they are giving in and she's even less happy.

I'd start with the marriagebuilders thing first though - if you're spending all your evening and most of the weekend with her as it is -- make that time really count! When she's in love with you she'll get off your back!


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## TheTruthHurts

All good ideas. We use the cave expression at my house - I needed that for many years and DS18 definitely needed a lot of that.

We saw the show men are from mars years ago and that's where we picked it up


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## _anonymous_

Based you what you've described, I don't think you're being unreasonable in needing some time to yourself, insofar as that time is budgeted and appropriate (e.g. a few hours here and there).

Just as you've planned date night and there are expectations around that, have you considered doing the same with your free time? Could be helpful to plan that time with your spouse, so that she knows when you'll enjoy time to yourself and for how long.

Concerning your wife's complaints about not being able to do enough or buy enough new stuff (etc.), she has no reason to complain about living within your means. Consider having her read the Rachel Cruze book 'Love Your Life, Not Theirs'


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## pag1617

WorkingWife said:


> When she does have your attention what are you two doing? Are you spending nice, quality time together with intimate conversation, connecting? Because she sounds like a whiny brat, but it also sounds like she is not really in love with you right now, despite all you're doing for her. A woman who is in love with her husband doesn't complain about the house and everything else because she is happy and so who really cares about those things?
> 
> I like the Men are from Mars book idea. Also, check this out, especially Basic Concept #4 the policy of undivided attention: A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts
> 
> They say women typically need 15 hours a week of undivided attention to feel in love. Things like watching TV and cleaning the house don't count as your "attention" is not undivided. If you can get her to be in love that would solve your problem. If it turns out the problem is that she is just the type of woman for whom nothing is ever enough, then just make sure you don't have kids...
> 
> You also might check out a book called "No more Mr. Nice guy" - I've never read it (plus I'm a woman) but I've seen it recommended to men a lot when they are in a situation where their wife is walking all over them and they are giving in and she's even less happy.
> 
> I'd start with the marriagebuilders thing first though - if you're spending all your evening and most of the weekend with her as it is -- make that time really count! When she's in love with you she'll get off your back!


You ask some very good questions, but to cut to the core when there is an opportunity to have some real quality time together I feel like I can't get her off of her phone. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, etc. It drives me crazy. When I mention that it bothers me she typically responds with a redirected accusation at some facet of my behavior that she dislikes. It's an endless circle, she demands attention yet when the opportunity arises her phone has most of the attention. If I can get her to set it down it's usually in a huffy crappy mood which ruins any good conversation. Even on date nights her phone is in her hand most of the time and I make an effort to never look at mine, even if it means I'm looking out the window waiting for her to get done with whatever she's doing. Laying in bed is the same, she's on her phone.


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## pag1617

I've also given in to other things she wants, we now have six animals despite my repeated statements that I don't want more (at the beginning of our marriage I only had a cat). It's like she doesn't respect my desires at all. Or the fact that I don't want to pay for six animals. I am reasonably sure she will always want SOMETHING else at this point. Always


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## Livvie

So it doesn't sound like a very happy time. The phone usage alone would drive me away. What are you going to do about it?


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## Holdingontoit

Leave the girl wife and find a woman to spend your life with.

Do NOT have kids with her.


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## pag1617

Livvie said:


> So it doesn't sound like a very happy time. The phone usage alone would drive me away. What are you going to do about it?


Well like Holdingontoit said, first off I'm not going to have kids with her that's for sure! Not now and not for a while. But I don't believe in divorce, I said that vow in front of my family and God. My word means something to me, so I'm going to go to counseling for myself. Because you can't change anyone else you can only work on yourself. Then I'm going to work on getting her to go with me.


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## ConanHub

How do you feel about spanking?

Because were I in your shoes, she would be getting them daily.

You have an extremely unhealthy marriage dynamic and it will destruct.

Your wife is also in the red zone for an affair.

Not saying she is at all but she is swimming in shark infested waters.

Your marriage needs help immediately. Counseling and /or marriage books to read together.

You might not want to divorce but you certainly won't have a marriage without serious intervention soon.

Having a crappy sex life is only one of many super destructive elements of your marriage.


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## WorkingWife

pag1617 said:


> You ask some very good questions, but to cut to the core when there is an opportunity to have some real quality time together I feel like I can't get her off of her phone. Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, etc. It drives me crazy. When I mention that it bothers me she typically responds with a redirected accusation at some facet of my behavior that she dislikes. It's an endless circle, she demands attention yet when the opportunity arises her phone has most of the attention. If I can get her to set it down it's usually in a huffy crappy mood which ruins any good conversation. Even on date nights her phone is in her hand most of the time and I make an effort to never look at mine, even if it means I'm looking out the window waiting for her to get done with whatever she's doing. Laying in bed is the same, she's on her phone.


Uggggh that would be so frustrating. So many people are addicted to social media. She definitely sounds immature and self centered.

I wonder how it would go over if you talked to her about this when you're both in a good mood and propose a "policy" that the phones are off and put away during certain times (in the evenings, when the two of you are out together, etc.). You can bring it up as something you want to do to improve your marriage. (As opposed to this is something she's doing that is bugging you.)

That phone will always be distracting. It needs to be put in airplane mode when the two of you are together.

Something I thought of from your first post, but I'm sure it would NOT go over well, but I thought you could keep a log for a few weeks of all the time you did spend with her. Now you could add to it how many times she checked her phone while you were together. That would probably really piss her off, but seriously, she's acting like a spoiled brat if she's complaining you don't spend enough time with her and she's on her phone when you are with her. HELLO?! Does she not know that is rude and inconsiderate? Of course if she's addicted, she won't stop even if she knows it's wrong.


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## pag1617

WorkingWife said:


> Uggggh that would be so frustrating. So many people are addicted to social media. She definitely sounds immature and self centered.
> 
> I wonder how it would go over if you talked to her about this when you're both in a good mood and propose a "policy" that the phones are off and put away during certain times (in the evenings, when the two of you are out together, etc.). You can bring it up as something you want to do to improve your marriage. (As opposed to this is something she's doing that is bugging you.)
> 
> That phone will always be distracting. It needs to be put in airplane mode when the two of you are together.
> 
> Something I thought of from your first post, but I'm sure it would NOT go over well, but I thought you could keep a log for a few weeks of all the time you did spend with her. Now you could add to it how many times she checked her phone while you were together. That would probably really piss her off, but seriously, she's acting like a spoiled brat if she's complaining you don't spend enough time with her and she's on her phone when you are with her. HELLO?! Does she not know that is rude and inconsiderate? Of course if she's addicted, she won't stop even if she knows it's wrong.


I have proposed this policy in the past, maybe I didn't choose the right time, phrase it in such a way that she was receptive to it, or emphasize it enough. And I tried to put it in such a way that I was suggesting it would help our marriage. Or maybe she doesn't care to do it.

But I feel her treatment of me changed radically not long after we got married. When we were dating she would come over and always clean, do the dishes for me voluntarily. She was far more patient, kind, giving, and receptive. After we got married it seems the focus changed. Now when I get back from work there is usually something she has been waiting for me to arrive home to accomplish and wants my help with, running to the store, some task around the house she could accomplish alone, when she knows I have been working all day and I would appreciate being able to get home and not work more around the house. She has time, she is home far more than I am. I don't feel this is an unfair expectation, my time is limited and if she wanted the quality time with me these things could be accomplished earlier. 

And I've thought many times about keeping a record of these things, but I came to the same conclusion that it would likely just cause more conflict. And honestly I don't think I could keep up with the number of times stupid little arguments arise, because the way she is I would have to keep a log not only of what was said but the context in which it was said so that it wasn't manipulated later.


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## aine

pag1617 said:


> Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge. I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from.
> 
> P.S.- Also, despite all the time I spend working, she is always complaining about how we can't go do enough or get enough new stuff and complains about the house I work hard to have bought, and the car. It's like nothing is ever enough with her. Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?


Apart from studying what does your wife do? She doesn't seem to have enough activities to occupy her.
YOu should both read, HIs Needs Her Needs and she has to understand that you need your own time and that another person cannot possibly fulfil all her needs.

I think you have to sit her down and share with her exactly what you shared with us. Tell her, she is your 'wing man' and you are doing your best and need her support not her constant complaining, you need her to understand that you have to have downtime where you just vegetate.
It is possible that it is not a matter of time spent with her but the quality of the time you spend with her. Women generally will be please enough if you give some affection on a daily basis (not sex), kiss, hugs, hand on her back, etc


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## pag1617

ConanHub it won't let me quote you, but I think you are right about the affair issue. She has said some things lately that can only be received as attempting to bait me into arguments. For example, she is in Colorado currently helping a friend move and said she "found a girlfriend" and is "going to have sex with her". To which I said, that happens and you can expect to be out on your a$$ divorced, alone, and broke before you know what's going on. Needless to say it went downhill from there. I'm at a loss here, she has become intentionally hurtful. What are your thoughts?


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## Uptown

Pag, I agree with the five respondents concluding that your W's behavior sounds very childish. Specifically, I agree with @*TheTruthHurts *that you're describing _"*a kid* who needs to grow up."_ I agree with @*WorkingWife* that your W _"sounds like a *whiny brat*."_ Similarly, @*ConanHub* says she needs to be "spanked daily." I also agree with @*Holdingontoit* that she sounds like _"*a girl* wife."_ And I agree with @*Spicy* that your W _"needs to get past being *a baby*." _ 

It is concerning that your W sounds so emotionally immature. Also concerning is the way she exhibited irrational jealousy when you told her about a sexual hookup that had occurred before you started dating her exclusively -- moreover, she continues to beat you over the head with that false allegation (of "cheating") two years later. 

Also concerning is her blaming you for every misfortune, her threatening you with divorce when you spent a few hours alone, and her insatiable need for animals and things -- none of which manage to make her happy (an impossible task). 

All of these behaviors are concerning because, like the childish behavior that five respondents commented on, they are warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) and, to a lesser extent, for NPD (Narcissistic PD). Significantly, I am not saying that your W has a full-blown PD but, instead, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of one.

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD (or NPD) warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," irrational jealousy, and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion from a psychologist.



pag1617 said:


> I'm going to go to counseling for myself.


If by "counseling" you mean "marriage counseling," I recommend you put that on hold for a while. MCs usually are very good at teaching communication skills but, if your W exhibits strong traits of BPD or NPD, her issues are far more serious than a simple lack of communication skills.

I therefore suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you likely are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD (and NPD) warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

An easy place to start reading is my list of _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Pag.


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## Vinnydee

I am old enough to see that many people marry the wrong person. They may somehow feel that things will be different once married. Also, many do not live with their wives to be so they are going into marriage blind as to what it would be like to live together 24/7. Apparently your wife has expectations that are not realistic. I worked 6 days a week until 7pm, home by 8pm. I traveled on business for 3-4 months of the year. One difference is that I was making very good money when I got married so my wife had a new house, car and anything else she needed or wanted. She wants little, but I like to spoil her.

I could not bear coming home to a wife who complained as much as yours seems to do. We would not have lasted long. Either your wife changes or you may have to make a change because there is no pleasing some people. My niece is in her mid thirties and very good looking. Every time she had a boyfriend and moved in with him, he broke up with her. She is like your wife. Her last fiancee is a fireman and their hours are crazy. She complained about that. She complained about not being able to buy the expense fashionable clothes she wanted and new cars, etc.. Like her 6 previous boyfriends, he could not take living with her. Good thing that these guys decided to live together before marriage. 

It is not uncommon for women to marry a man who is not exactly what they want but feel that they can change him after marriage. Problem is that few adults actually change and if we do change, it may not be the way the wife wants us too. You can try to talk to her and if she will not change, then you have a decision to make.


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## DTO

Well, of course it went downhill. You hit her where it hurts - "out on her a $$" and "broke". Consider the possibility that on top of being selfish/immature in general, she prioritizes a certain lifestyle.

I see that she is fine with you busting your a$$ running your own business while she has a soft job. Does she encourage you to step back a bit from that a bit or offer to take more of the financial burden?

Also there is the issue of piling on chores instead of doing them herself. Has she hit you up for domestic help yet?

If you (God forbid) had a major injury or lost your contractor's license, what would be her response?



pag1617 said:


> ConanHub it won't let me quote you, but I think you are right about the affair issue. She has said some things lately that can only be received as attempting to bait me into arguments. For example, she is in Colorado currently helping a friend move and said she "found a girlfriend" and is "going to have sex with her". To which I said, that happens and you can expect to be out on your a$$ divorced, alone, and broke before you know what's going on. Needless to say it went downhill from there. I'm at a loss here, she has become intentionally hurtful. What are your thoughts?


----------



## TheTruthHurts

Set out specific things you want changed -attitudes, respect, tasks, time together, etc.

Set a time frame that is acceptable for you.

Then sit down with her and work out a plan of action. If you're making forward progress and the time ends, extend it if you want.

Otherwise consider MC or divorce.

Anything short of a specific action plan with consequences probably won't work.

Oh - and the sex comment is ALARMING - it shows a shocking level of entitlement. Frankly that might be all I need to start planning a divorce. People tell you who they are - it's up to you to listen 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pag1617

I've been doing a lot of reading and I think I have started getting closer to the core of the issue, not saying it is the answer but it's hopefully on the right track. She often uses friends relationships as an example, I often hear that relationships "should be a certain way" and it is based on what she sees of others. She had an expectation of what marriage would be like when we got married and it doesn't match up to that expectation and despite the fact that it has been a year and a half she holds on to those expectations. I had expectations yes, I once knew a person who came over and cleaned for me without me asking, worked hard and was independent, who would work regardless of what the job was and up to 3 jobs at a time to get where she wanted to be, who was patient and respectful of my "friends" (whom I later parted ways with because they would not show her a shred of friendliness I.e. Not saying hello to her when she was standing right in front of them). I now have a wife who I have to bug to get to clean (and then it's usually a situation where I walk in and one of the first things I hear through the door is "I did the dishes you're welcome") won't work anywhere but her desired field when I have repeatedly asked for her help financially (claiming that there are absolutely no opportunities for her here), and not only dislikes the few friends I have, but openly expresses her aggravation with my family. Yet I have tried to be as patient and loving towards her as possible despite these false expectations for mine.... aside from the arguments that occasionally make me lose my patience with her and some of my sanity. She believes marriage should "make her happy" and has seemingly pinned me with the impossible task of being the person responsible for said happiness. It is an incredibly entitled attitude

Now I could be totally wrong and I am not afraid to admit that, but reading multitudes of similar experiences had led me to this train of thought


----------



## x598

pag1617 said:


> Well like Holdingontoit said, first off I'm not going to have kids with her that's for sure! Not now and not for a while. But I don't believe in divorce, I said that vow in front of my family and God. My word means something to me, so I'm going to go to counseling for myself. Because you can't change anyone else you can only work on yourself. Then I'm going to work on getting her to go with me.


I "didnt belive in divorce" and married a woman i thought was 100% sure that couldn't happen.

I'm divorced.

Let me shed some light on this......OK you BOTH took vows...."to love, honor and cherish" and its fair to say your wife ain't holding up her end of the vow.

her constantly on her phone....could be an emotional affair or worse.....or could be her looking at anyone and everyone else on Fakebook and pouting like a three year old that the Cinderella life she is dreaming of isn't going to happen.

You are in for a rough ride. But consider yourself lucky that you don;t have kids yet, have not that much of your life invested in this woman, and have the ability to make a clean break.

my advise to you is that the issues your wife is dealing with and complaining about are the tip of the iceberg. Serious counseling is in order FOR HER and you both. but be prepared for the very real reality this marriage may be over. You get to decide how deep of a hole you want to dig with her by your belief in standing by your vows no matter what.


----------



## ConanHub

pag1617 said:


> ConanHub it won't let me quote you, but I think you are right about the affair issue. She has said some things lately that can only be received as attempting to bait me into arguments. For example, she is in Colorado currently helping a friend move and said she "found a girlfriend" and is "going to have sex with her". To which I said, that happens and you can expect to be out on your a$$ divorced, alone, and broke before you know what's going on. Needless to say it went downhill from there. I'm at a loss here, she has become intentionally hurtful. What are your thoughts?


Sorry for that. Was distracted by sex threads LOL!

I honestly do not believe she is in any way ready to be a girlfriend much less wife.

My first suggestion would be to get your legal ducks in a row by consulting with a lawyer to at least get a picture of where you would stand in a divorce and how to protect yourself legally.

I think you should proceed with it but if you are convinced she is worth some serious blood, sweat and tears then just get the paperwork done without filing or having her served yet.

Get the paperwork done at least so you can have a somber talk with your wife about how your divorce will look.

You notice I'm not mentioning threatening divorce but actually preparing it?

Your wife is acting like you and her marriage are a joke. She is behaving like it is a tv comedy drama.

You need to behave like it is real. She needs to see it.

Now if she is able to be rational at all discussing divorce, you will be on a good track.

If she flips out and continues to act immature, then file and have her served, following the advice of your lawyer in what actions you should take. I advise immediate separation physically if possible.

If she reacts by becoming broken and sorrowful while expressing a desire to stay married to you, then you have to have a plan in place to build a marriage together that will require both of you.

Unless she expresses some form of negative emotion over losing you and tells you she wants to keep your marriage, I've got no other advice.

If she wants to save her marriage, and you do too, then I have several ideas for directions you two can take.

Without your willingness to put a stop to this farce and her willingness to make it a real marriage, then no plan is worth talking about.

If you want to take a different path and want to determine if she is cheating.

Getting expertise with keyloggers, phone spying apps and voice activated recorders are the way to go.

There is a thread on CWI here that is called The Standard Evidence Thread by weightlifter.

Best wishes mate!


----------



## Ursula

Hey Pag, I've dealt with some of this (see bolded text). I'm that way exactly, and also don't sleep well, SO I'm frequently wiped out. My H used to make grand plans for us every weekend when all I wanted was to recharge, and get the household chores done (this is back when he didn't lift a finger). It took him probably over 2 years to understand when I said "I'm too tired to go and do/visit ____". What really drove it home was that I ended up sitting him down and explained the way a sleep deprived introvert works. Maybe you just need to sit down with your W and explain to her why you need that time to yourself. 



pag1617 said:


> Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . *I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position* physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and *by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge.* I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from.


----------



## pag1617

I have tried many times to explain, to have a conversation about it, but she is still convinced that I don't need that time at the end of each week. In her mind every other week (or less) is enough, needless to say she is an extreme extrovert. Her demand is that I spend more time with her, yet I spend 50 hours or more working each week, around 40 hours with her throughout the week and weekend, and maybe get 6-10 hours in an entire week to do anything for myself. I have always been introverted and before marriage I was rarely in need of company, after work I usually was home but wpuld hang out with friends maybe once or twice a week....so this is a huge change I have made already. How can I get through to her that I have already changed my entire lifestyle to accommodate her needs?


----------



## *Deidre*

pag1617 said:


> Well like Holdingontoit said, first off I'm not going to have kids with her that's for sure! Not now and not for a while. But I don't believe in divorce, I said that vow in front of my family and God. My word means something to me, so I'm going to go to counseling for myself. Because you can't change anyone else you can only work on yourself. Then I'm going to work on getting her to go with me.


Sometimes though, people marry the wrong person.


----------



## pag1617

Well she just got back from Colorado, I took half a day off work to get her flowers, write a thoughtful card, clean the house, prepare dinner for us to do together. And it's been nothing but complaints and talk about divorce and a timeline for ME to change. Talk about a great welcome home!


----------



## prunus

pag1617 said:


> Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge. I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from.
> 
> P.S.- Also, despite all the time I spend working, she is always complaining about how we can't go do enough or get enough new stuff and complains about the house I work hard to have bought, and the car. It's like nothing is ever enough with her. Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?


I'm going to throw a wrench in this. My ex would have said many of the same things. He was (still is) so delusional in his part of the problem. He thought he was husband of the year, when in reality he sucked so bad.

Are you not seeing her pain?

Buying crap (house, car, expensive crap) meant absolutely nothing to me, yet he said I wanted it. Nope. Stuff means NOTHING.


----------



## ConanHub

pag1617 said:


> Well she just got back from Colorado, I took half a day off work to get her flowers, write a thoughtful card, clean the house, prepare dinner for us to do together. And it's been nothing but complaints and talk about divorce and a timeline for ME to change. Talk about a great welcome home!


Try dating. I hear there are these marvelous creatures called WOMEN.

You have something between a harpy and a lizard.

Plus you are a wimp.

Not being mean but your wife might need a John Wayne type, see Quiet Man or McClintock.

She might seriously need, desire or respond to a rougher, firmer sort of man.

Can you picture her coming home from Colorado and having no flowers or nice dinner or anything but a hard, passionate kiss, a no nonsense walk to the bedroom (over your shoulder if necessary) and then the pounding of her life, leaving her an orgasmic mess?

Just a thought.

Your wimpy, yes dear, nice guy ways as she shyts in your mouth doesn't seem to be making anyone happy.

There are women who are just fine with really nice guys but she doesn't appear to be one of them.

Regardless, this isn't working.


----------



## *Deidre*

pag1617 said:


> Well she just got back from Colorado, I took half a day off work to get her flowers, write a thoughtful card, clean the house, prepare dinner for us to do together. And it's been nothing but complaints and talk about divorce and a timeline for ME to change. Talk about a great welcome home!


She also could be seeing someone else behind your back. Someone who keeps talking about divorce, Idk. I'd get out of this marriage. There are two sides to every story, but why doesn't she file if she's so miserable? She sounds like she just wants to rule over you, and make you miserable. If she really wanted out, she would file, and stop threatening. So, I'd file if I were you, heal from this and move on. You're not a bad person, don't let one person's negativity bring you down. I hope you find some peace.


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## pag1617

Oh I'm still preparing, when I noticed her computer profile password changed that's the key logger went into effect


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## pag1617

So what you're saying is that despite the fact that I spend almost every spare moment aside from a few hours on the weekend with her, it's unreasonable and my problem that I need a little time to myself? When it is the only thing I ask for for myself?


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## Satya

pag1617 said:


> How can I get through to her that I have already changed my entire lifestyle to accommodate her needs?


This is your problem. You're being too accommodating and losing your own identity in the process. 

Show her on paper the breakdown of hours working, spent with her, and spent alone per week. A human being needs alone time. 

She'll need to find things to keep her occupied other than social media. Unless she's connecting with faraway family there is literally no reason to spend all your free time on Facebook. Or TAM for that matter.


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## pag1617

I have tried just that, I spend between 34 and 40 hours a week with her depending on my work schedule, 50 ish hours working. 



Satya said:


> pag1617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can I get through to her that I have already changed my entire lifestyle to accommodate her needs?
> 
> 
> 
> This is your problem. You're being too accommodating and losing your own identity in the process.
> 
> Show her on paper the breakdown of hours working, spent with her, and spent alone per week. A human being needs alone time.
> 
> She'll need to find things to keep her occupied other than social media. Unless she's connecting with faraway family there is literally no reason to spend all your free time on Facebook. Or TAM for that matter.
Click to expand...


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## Holdingontoit

@pag1617: Listen to @ConanHub. Time to be less reasonable. Less attentive. Less available. Less willing to compromise your needs for hers. 

Might seem to you that if giving her 110% of what you are comfortable giving isn't making her happy, then giving her 90% will surely be worse. Experience shows that it doesn't work that way. Some women feel unsafe if they can push their man around. They only feel safe if they see that their man will stand up for himself and resist her requests. After all, if he can't or won't stand up to her, how can she trust that he will stand up to other people to defend her. Not very PC and many of these women will not admit to this dynamic. But it is real and occurs often enough that it is worth our mentioning to you as a possible root cause of your predicament. And worth you trying an experiment to see if saying "no" to her produces better results than saying "yes ma'am".


----------



## pag1617

@Holdingontoit
I have stood my ground on my time alone since we first got married. This is why I am at a loss.


----------



## Holdingontoit

50 hours at work plus 40 hours with her and only 6 or 8 for you? I think you have conceded much too far in her direction. Switch that to 20 hours with her and 30 for yourself and I will agree with you that you have stood your ground.

Look, I understand it is easy for me to say and not so easy psychologically for you. I was you. Kissing my wife's butt and getting neglected. Now I go out to happy hour with a buddy from work and get home after she is ready for bed one or 2 nights a week. No, I don't cheat but I do spend time and money away from her. She gets less of me these days. And you know what? She is happier and more pleased with me and provides more affection than back when I was kissing her butt. She likes that I am stronger and more independent. Would she have told me that a couple of years ago? NO. Would she have told me that deep down she likes having to fight for my attention? NO. But she respects me more now that she can no longer push me around. Now when she tries to send me to the dog house I laugh and tell her it is her loss if she doesn't want to be with me. And then the next day I go to happy hour and my wife is the one sitting home alone. So who got punished for her rejecting me? Not me.


----------



## Steve1000

pag1617 said:


> Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?


I'm probably a bit like your wife in the regard. For me, the biggest issue is not that you want two or three hours to yourself, but that it must happen on either a Friday or Saturday night. Those are both valuable time slots.  

The issue regarding kids is more ominous.


----------



## Buddy400

pag1617 said:


> Well she just got back from Colorado, I took half a day off work to get her flowers, write a thoughtful card, clean the house, prepare dinner for us to do together. And it's been nothing but complaints and talk about divorce and a timeline for ME to change. Talk about a great welcome home!


Well, after that, you'd be a fool to stay in the marriage.

File now.

There really isn't any other option.


----------



## pag1617

She just doesn't seem to want to realize that I'm a human being with needs of my own, even the little bit of time I've carved out for myself she fights me over. So she can either complain about my little recharge time or complain if I gave her ALL my time, because I know myself and I would be a grouchy, quiet, and distant person. Instead of realizing that if she didn't fight me over this and let me relax in peace, I would be able to engage with her on a full tank


----------



## *Deidre*

pag1617 said:


> @Holdingontoit
> I have stood my ground on my time alone since we first got married. This is why I am at a loss.


My thought is there is someone else...thus her changing her password, etc. You 'not spending enough time with her' is the excuse she seems to be using to divorce you...or threaten you with divorce. If you start spending time with her, it will never be enough, it seems like. Why do you wish to stay with someone who treats you badly?


----------



## pag1617

That's becoming an increasingly good question. For example tonight is date night, the entire ride it was phone time for her, I told her no phones (included myself so as not to put defenses up and ruin a halfway decent mood) while we are actually having dinner, right after we got back in the car it was right back to the phone again. I made myself available for her to hang out with here, just in the living room, but she has decided to go to the bedroom and watch tv. Getting that quality time together is not my fault entirely. When I told her I got her just a little welcome back gift she looked at the flowers, briefly read the card and went "hm". No gratitude, no real response to what I said. I think you're right, she's just looking for a way out.


----------



## Holdingontoit

You could do some snooping to find out who is the other person in her life. Or you could cut to the chase and divorce her and find someone who actually wants to be married to you.


----------



## CuddleBug

pag1617 said:


> Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge. I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from.
> 
> P.S.- Also, despite all the time I spend working, she is always complaining about how we can't go do enough or get enough new stuff and complains about the house I work hard to have bought, and the car. It's like nothing is ever enough with her. Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?




She's dead weight.

You are the working professional and supporting her, so she doesn't have to work and can go to school. She has it really nice.

Since she isn't working, only going to school, she should be doing all the chores and have supper ready.

She needs to grow up.

What would stop you leaving her, finding a real woman that works? Nothing.

Since she has more time on her hands, isn't working, she should be catering to your needs after a long tough day. Dinner ready, your favorite tv show or movie playing, give you a nice body massage and talk about each others days.

If she wants more money to do things and buy more stuff, tell her to get a job!!!


----------



## pag1617

She refuses to get a job other than the field she wants to be in. I have told her over and over that she will have to take jobs she doesn't like to get where she wants to be, I have had to do it. She is now convinced that Colorado is "where she is supposed to be" and I have told her that I will offer absolutely no financial support if she decides to go there(we live in Oklahoma). I think the only way I can get her to see reason is to let her FAIL 



CuddleBug said:


> pag1617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge. I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from.
> 
> P.S.- Also, despite all the time I spend working, she is always complaining about how we can't go do enough or get enough new stuff and complains about the house I work hard to have bought, and the car. It's like nothing is ever enough with her. Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's dead weight.
> 
> You are the working professional and supporting her, so she doesn't have to work and can go to school. She has it really nice.
> 
> Since she isn't working, only going to school, she should be doing all the chores and have supper ready.
> 
> She needs to grow up.
> 
> What would stop you leaving her, finding a real woman that works? Nothing.
> 
> Since she has more time on her hands, isn't working, she should be catering to your needs after a long tough day. Dinner ready, your favorite tv show or movie playing, give you a nice body massage and talk about each others days.
> 
> If she wants more money to do things and buy more stuff, tell her to get a job!!!
Click to expand...


----------



## Holdingontoit

She can move to CO, file for divorce and force you to send her money for a while. You might as well file and figure out how much it is going to cost you to be rid of her. Doesn't seem like her staying with you is very likely at this juncture anyway.


----------



## pag1617

Little update here:

She has decided to move to another city, has found a part time job but still expects me to pay the startup cost of moving and living. When I said I can't afford to do that she reacted negatively, "oh it's not OUR money anymore?". No, it's not. You decided to move when I said over and over it's a bad decision and I can't support it. I have been doing some research on her behavior and out of the many indicators of borderline personality disorder, she only lacks one or two of the indicators. I feel like I am fighting an impossible battle. I have begun contacting lawyers to discuss divorce. Everything is in my name. There was no prenuptial agreement. What kind of outcome am I looking at?


----------



## Uptown

pag1617 said:


> I have been doing some research on her behavior and out of the many indicators of *borderline personality disorder*, she only lacks one or two of the indicators.


In that case, Pag, I suggest you read the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder_. For good online articles written by professionals, I recommend Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and also recommend Leaving a Partner with BPD. Two other good articles are Pain of Breaking Up and Divorcing a Narcissist.

I also suggest that you consider seeing a psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you've been dealing with since marrying your wife. Finally, if you would like to discuss any of the red flags on my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs, it would be helpful if you would tell us which are particularly strong and which are very weak. Take care, Pag.


----------



## FeministInPink

pag1617 said:


> Little update here:
> 
> She has decided to move to another city, has found a part time job but still expects me to pay the startup cost of moving and living. When I said I can't afford to do that she reacted negatively, "oh it's not OUR money anymore?". No, it's not. You decided to move when I said over and over it's a bad decision and I can't support it. I have been doing some research on her behavior and out of the many indicators of borderline personality disorder, she only lacks one or two of the indicators. I feel like I am fighting an impossible battle. I have begun contacting lawyers to discuss divorce. Everything is in my name. There was no prenuptial agreement. What kind of outcome am I looking at?


Is she moving closer to where her school is? How much of the bill was she expecting to foot with shared monies? She is, unfortunately entitled to half of what's saved, etc., but if she's moving out and working I don't know that she can expect you to continue to support her financially. Many full-time students end up taking out loans fro living expenses while they are in school. You would be wise to ask the lawyers about this matter.

It sounds like she obviously isn't realistic about the financials of a divorce, or life after a divorce.

And also, I would like to second @Uptown's post, just above mine. You may be in for a bumpy ride with this one.


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## pag1617

Uptown said:


> In that case, Pag, I suggest you read the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder_. For good online articles written by professionals, I recommend Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and also recommend Leaving a Partner with BPD. Two other good articles are Pain of Breaking Up and Divorcing a Narcissist.
> 
> I also suggest that you consider seeing a psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you've been dealing with since marrying your wife. Finally, if you would like to discuss any of the red flags on my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs, it would be helpful if you would tell us which are particularly strong and which are very weak. Take care, Pag.


Regarding you post about BPD from this article:

1-Best example would be while driving. She can pass people in a reckless manner, run lights, ride people's tails. Then claim that every driver on the road other than her is the worst. Despite the fact that she is exhibiting the behavior of a reckless driver.
2-I can't remember the last time we discussed finances without her saying "you're always worried about money". When I want to have some time to myself "all you want is time to play games". If one bad thing happens in a day, the whole day is ruined apparently.
3-Cant stand my family because of their religious beliefs. Repeatedly will say "bible thumpers" when referring to them. Has no desire to be around them. Has labeled all my friends "bad influences" despite the fact that she can to to Colorado and smoke weed, and go to bars. 
4-I have changed my entire lifestyle, from being a single man supporting himself with a job that paid the bills to a job that requires a huge amount of my time to support her and myself. I have given up the time I would have had to myself for time with her, and restricted it to only two nights a week to do anything I want for myself. I come home from a 10+ hour workday and I am struggling to keep up with the chores around the house, while she has had time to do all these things and expects my help.
5-All I have to do is disagree with her on a decision and suddenly I am the worst person on earth.
6-Best example from the recent past would be my misunderstanding of what burger king she was asking about. I described where one used to be, thinking she was heading there. Her response to me was "you can be so f&*(ing stupid adam" when I was just giving a description of where I thought she was headed.
7-I can never compliment her without her saying it's not true, or not showing any gratefulness in any way whatsoever for the compliment.
8-See NO. 6
9-The entire reason for our problems. I spend 50+ hours a week working, on average 30+ hours with her, and maybe 12 doing anything for myself. Will ask me to get a glass of water when it is five feet away from her. Will ask me to let the dogs in when she has been sleeping all day. Will ask me what is for dinner when I get home from a long workday, then leave me alone to cook.
10-Even now, she is unhappy because of me. Despite the fact that she decided to move to marry me. And somehow it is my fault. I have never once heard her say "I think I made a bad decision."
11-Moved away from her home
12-They were "abusive" and "let her get raped"
13-I married the person who was respectful to my friends who showed her no respect, she did dishes for them. Cleaned for me without me asking. Let me watch tv or play a game without complaint. Was always available for sex.
14-Veterinarian, Cop, Lawyer, Nurse, Entrepreneur? Who knows?! Changes every month or two.
15-Always complains to me when things are bad, Every little thing. Headache, cramps, annoying driver. Yet when I have a valid complaint no sincerity seems to be there.
16-Long term friends have very tenuous relationships.
17-Not really.
18-Will claim I said a specific thing when she is emotionally charged, claiming she has a perfect memory of what was said.


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## lovelygirl

Did you read what you just wrote above?? 
I think you need to print it out and keep it everywhere with you. 

File for D, no need for separation. Do you really plan to spend the *next 40 years of your life* with her??


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## pag1617

No, I can't do it. I'm nearing 30, if I want to have a functional family and kids in my lifetime I can't waste my time with someone so self centered and childish


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## Uptown

Pag, thanks for the detailed response to my list of 18 BPD warning signs. I agree that you are describing behaviors that match most of those red flags. 



> #3-Cant stand my family because of their religious beliefs. Repeatedly will say "bible thumpers" when referring to them. Has no desire to be around them. Has labeled all my friends "bad influences" despite the fact that she can to to Colorado and smoke weed, and go to bars.


Yes, that is a good example of her trying to isolate you away from your friends and family, i.e., away from your support network. The best example of her irrational jealousy, however, is an incident you described earlier. Specifically, you told her about a sexual hookup that had occurred before you started dating her exclusively and she became very jealous of that woman -- moreover, she continues to beat you over the head with that false allegation (of "cheating") two years later.



> I don't believe in divorce, I said that vow in front of my family and God.


Pag, if your W is a BPDer as you suspect, your relationship with her is not husband/wife but, rather, parent/child. I say this because BPDers typically have the emotional development of a four year old. This is why they exhibit the issues -- e.g., the temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, weak self identity, and black-white thinking -- you describe. If this is accurate, the issue is not whether to end the so-called _"marriage"_ but, rather, to reverse the _adoption_.


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## lovelygirl

pag1617 said:


> No, I can't do it. I'm nearing 30, if I want to have a functional family and kids in my lifetime I can't waste my time with someone so self centered and childish


Exactly.

You don't want to spend the next 40 years raising your kids *AND* your childish WIFE. 
By the time you reach 40, you will feel already consumed, unwanted and full of resentment.

And please think twice before having kids with her. By the time you'll feel trapped, it'll be too late. It's important to start the process of detachment from her.


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## In2thewoods

I do not understand clinical psychology like some of you do, but I don't like over use of spectrum disorders like BPD...of course, it may be completely legitimate in this case, but don't be afraid to call a selfish brat a SELFISH BRAT. Sadly, I was that selfish brat in college and was diagnosed with BPD and bi-polar disorder. I never fully embraced my diagnosis though, and that turned out to be a really good thing. In retrospect, I can't help but wonder if my doctrs were just lumping me in with all the other selfish unstable immature people(and there are alot of them)-- If I really did have these rather serious behavioral illnesses, shouldn't it have been harder to change things and get my head on straight? I didn't want to stay on the drugs the Drs gave me, and out of sheer stubbornness decided I would figure it out-- some people i trusted were honest enough with me to reveal that I was just plain selfish, and also scared, so getting healthy, getting away from bad influences, and getting counseling were my best path. I had serious growing up to do, and getting married to a very strong minded guy(senior year in college) exacerbated AND helped my issues. I probably should have waited to get married, but hindsight being 20/20... I almost hope yr wife doesn't get diagnosed as BPD, the 2 people I know who have been loud about their diagnoses just use the label as an excuse to whine about why everything should go their way and how unfair things are, and that other people need to bend bc of their illness. I suppose some Dctrs have trouble saying, "You don't have any disorder other than pride, entitlement, and old-school meanness. You are a b$#@! and unless you smarten up, nobodies going to want to be near you". Just my opinion. 

My DH (we've been married 16 yrs) has serious rage issues, and his anger helped me to realize I needed him to form my own identity. Every time he had a bad day, I would whine or sulk, or give him plastic-smile-face, all the while resenting him and keeping tallies against him. Through IC (Christian counseling, Im one of those Bible-thumpers yr W doesn't prefer) I realized that alot of my demanding/ narrow-minded/ vengeful/ ungrateful/ unstable behavior was due to deep rooted insecurity from sexual abuse from my childhood that I had never dealt with. Yikes. 1st time Ive ever said that in "public". Still painful. Moving on-- Its OK to feel pain and fear, just not to take it out on everyone around you, as yr W seems to be doing. I realized I could not control everything, and that I need to be responsible for my own happiness and actions. That meant eating healthy, not staying out super late, ditching stupid unhelpful juvenile friends, and getting involved with positive people who would call me out on my crap. (For me these helpful people were church people, they hold me accountable and love the hot mess I am to this day.) Shockingly enough, doing these rather obvious things brought me to stable enough place that I could receive correction, speak kindly when frustrated, deal with lack of instant gratification, and take responsibility for my actions. It also gave me interest in doing things outside my house without my DH-- it took me a while to realize that it's GOOD to have separate interests and hobbies.

Things are still rocky in my house sometimes, changing a mindset away from self-focus is a lifelong proposition. Also, my DH is in counseling for his struggles. It is totally valid for you to go to IC to vent about yr selfish demanding hurtful W. If you don't get your frustration at her out somewhere, it'll likely end up spewing out on her. Not that she doesn't deserve it, but keeping yr own nose clean will definitely be an asset, especially if you pursue divorce and it becomes "he said-she said".

I believe your marriage can be saved, but it's gonna take HER choosing to turn around. If you are one of those Bible-thumpers, start praying-- HARD. 

Also, having been on the receiving end of someone raging on you; don't take it, Pag. Tell her in a calm moment that if she drops an "F bomb" on you, you'll walk away and the conversation is over.

All the best to you, man.


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## pag1617

In2thewoods said:


> I do not understand clinical psychology like some of you do, but I don't like over use of spectrum disorders like BPD...of course, it may be completely legitimate in this case, but don't be afraid to call a selfish brat a SELFISH BRAT. Sadly, I was that selfish brat in college and was diagnosed with BPD and bi-polar disorder. I never fully embraced my diagnosis though, and that turned out to be a really good thing. In retrospect, I can't help but wonder if my doctrs were just lumping me in with all the other selfish unstable immature people(and there are alot of them)-- If I really did have these rather serious behavioral illnesses, shouldn't it have been harder to change things and get my head on straight? I didn't want to stay on the drugs the Drs gave me, and out of sheer stubbornness decided I would figure it out-- some people i trusted were honest enough with me to reveal that I was just plain selfish, and also scared, so getting healthy, getting away from bad influences, and getting counseling were my best path. I had serious growing up to do, and getting married to a very strong minded guy(senior year in college) exacerbated AND helped my issues. I probably should have waited to get married, but hindsight being 20/20... I almost hope yr wife doesn't get diagnosed as BPD, the 2 people I know who have been loud about their diagnoses just use the label as an excuse to whine about why everything should go their way and how unfair things are, and that other people need to bend bc of their illness. I suppose some Dctrs have trouble saying, "You don't have any disorder other than pride, entitlement, and old-school meanness. You are a b$#@! and unless you smarten up, nobodies going to want to be near you". Just my opinion.
> 
> My DH (we've been married 16 yrs) has serious rage issues, and his anger helped me to realize I needed him to form my own identity. Every time he had a bad day, I would whine or sulk, or give him plastic-smile-face, all the while resenting him and keeping tallies against him. Through IC (Christian counseling, Im one of those Bible-thumpers yr W doesn't prefer) I realized that alot of my demanding/ narrow-minded/ vengeful/ ungrateful/ unstable behavior was due to deep rooted insecurity from sexual abuse from my childhood that I had never dealt with. Yikes. 1st time Ive ever said that in "public". Still painful. Moving on-- Its OK to feel pain and fear, just not to take it out on everyone around you, as yr W seems to be doing. I realized I could not control everything, and that I need to be responsible for my own happiness and actions. That meant eating healthy, not staying out super late, ditching stupid unhelpful juvenile friends, and getting involved with positive people who would call me out on my crap. (For me these helpful people were church people, they hold me accountable and love the hot mess I am to this day.) Shockingly enough, doing these rather obvious things brought me to stable enough place that I could receive correction, speak kindly when frustrated, deal with lack of instant gratification, and take responsibility for my actions. It also gave me interest in doing things outside my house without my DH-- it took me a while to realize that it's GOOD to have separate interests and hobbies.
> 
> Things are still rocky in my house sometimes, changing a mindset away from self-focus is a lifelong proposition. Also, my DH is in counseling for his struggles. It is totally valid for you to go to IC to vent about yr selfish demanding hurtful W. If you don't get your frustration at her out somewhere, it'll likely end up spewing out on her. Not that she doesn't deserve it, but keeping yr own nose clean will definitely be an asset, especially if you pursue divorce and it becomes "he said-she said".
> 
> I believe your marriage can be saved, but it's gonna take HER choosing to turn around. If you are one of those Bible-thumpers, start praying-- HARD.
> 
> Also, having been on the receiving end of someone raging on you; don't take it, Pag. Tell her in a calm moment that if she drops an "F bomb" on you, you'll walk away and the conversation is over.
> 
> All the best to you, man.


Thank you for your candid response, I think you could help me. With the abuse you went through, I'm so sorry, and I imagine even revealing that to a stranger is scary. I think my wife has some childhood problems as well that she hasn't dealt with in a healthy manner, she was adopted, her adopted father had serious anger issues, they also separated when she was 15. She had an aborted child at 18. 

In hindsight, what really made you look to change yourself? I'm afraid she still blames the world around her for every problem that arises in her life. But if you think back to when you were in such turmoil, what do you think would have helped you most even in that selfish mindset, when the anger was so present. I can't do anything more for my wife, I can only hope that she desires to change.


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## MrRight

Just read through this thread - same problem here.
We both work from home - she cant leave me alone for 5 minutes.
No cure for it - only eventual divorce when the child grows up.
But yes - it is like bringing up 2 kids.


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## urf

pag1617 said:


> Thought that title might get some attention. So here's my dilemma; my wife and I have been married for about a year and a half. During the entire duration of our marriage, I have more or less been the working spouse(with the exception of a few short lived jobs on her part). I am an electrical contractor, my days typically consist of waking at 6:15 A.M. and being out the door no later than 7. An average day gets me home by 5:30-6:00 P.M., but usually one or two days a week I won't be home until 7 or possibly later. From the moment I get home my time and attention is hers, however I try to always pitch in around the house in the evenings and clean, do dishes, etc. On the weekends I spend every bit of time with her I can. With one exception being the night time on Friday or Saturday night (generally sneak off to be alone and watch some tv, read, play a game around 9:30- 10:00 up til maybe 1, 2 at the latest) . I am the type of person who values his solitude, I spend all week in the "on" position physically working, dealing with customers, dealing with contractors, phone calls, bids, billing, etc. and by the end of the week I feel worn raw, irritable, and fatigued. The time alone allows me to recharge. I don't ask her for little favors, in fact I try to get as much done as possible so as not to place much of a workload on her as she in school. But despite the fact that the only thing I ever ask of her is to have some time to myself on the weekends, she will repeatedly say "You don't spend enough time with me." Which I can't help but feel is unfair to me, I took this job to support her through school, the only spare time I DON'T spend with her is a few hours on the weekends, at night, when there isn't much to do that time of night anyways. She has made these few hours into a huge deal even threatening divorce because she says "All you care about is being alone and watching tv or playing a game" when that couldn't be more untrue. I simply know that when I reach a certain point I begin to get snappy and I don't want to treat her that way so solitude gives me some space to unwind. Did I miss the waiver that forfeited every moment of my time after marriage or am I just way off base? Anyone who has dealt with something similar, I would be glad to hear from.
> 
> P.S.- Also, despite all the time I spend working, she is always complaining about how we can't go do enough or get enough new stuff and complains about the house I work hard to have bought, and the car. It's like nothing is ever enough with her. Again, anyone who has dealt with a similar situation, did you find resolution or deal with these things in a specific manner?


There is an easy solution to this. I know. I was in a similar position at one time. Make her your partner in your business. Put her to work for you. It will free up some time for you, give her something a value to do and let her see what you do all day. You need some really well spelled out starting rules though. In my case she took over all the office duties and I did the customer and hands on work. We managed this way for 50 years. For me at least it
was great. She is very efficient and you can't find a more loyal employee. Plus the bennie of sex on the desk when things get slow.


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## SunCMars

Faithful Wife said:


> But typically the man does require some time completely alone to get to his mental cave, and that may include going to a physical cave.


This is a Great Post...BigTime...

Very helpful for wives.
...................................................................................................................................

I turned my back from the Shadows on the Wall and did a 180. Walked out of the Cave. That is another Cave and another perspective.

Yes, men need "alone" time. Even older men.

As we age, nothing really changes, well, maybe our eyesight and.......................


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## SunCMars

MrRight said:


> Just read through this thread - same problem here.
> We both work from home - she cant leave me alone for 5 minutes.
> No cure for it - only eventual divorce when the child grows up.
> But yes - it is like bringing up 2 kids.


Ahhh!

Good and bad....this.

Does she nuzzle you. Is her nose warm or cool? I do not mean this in a "mean" way.

I like my woman close. Within arms reach, sweaty palm reach. Of course, no work gets done. 

Why else "have" a woman? 

I see the arrows coming...they have burning [kerosene-soaked] feminine pads tied on the end. 

Fire away. I am an easy target. My heart is big, easy to hit.


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## Fozzy

SunCMars said:


> Ahhh!
> 
> Good and bad....this.
> 
> Does she nuzzle you. Is her nose warm or cool? I do not mean this in a "mean" way.
> 
> I like my woman close. Within arms reach, sweaty palm reach. Of course, no work gets done.
> 
> Why else "have" a woman?
> 
> I see the arrows coming...they have burning [kerosene-soaked] feminine pads tied on the end.
> 
> Fire away. I am an easy target. My heart is big, easy to hit.


As a side note--tampons really do make amazing fire-starters.


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## SunCMars

Fozzy said:


> As a side note--tampons really do make amazing fire-starters.



Good One! 

Fozzy, my friend, we come from the same body of men.....and you are my funny bone!


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