# I need help!



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

I am a therapist in training and I am getting a slew of couples in my practice for infidelity...

I have extensive training in couples work but not this...more along the lines when they both want to work on it... But that is not what is coming through my door

A few surprising things for me to realize:

90% of the cheaters are female up to this point in my practice

The female gender strayers are not willing to work on it. It seems that when they check out and start emotionally bonding with another they completely shut off the spouse, family, and even their children.

The male gender strayers are willing to fight for the marriage and change what ever then need to get the family back and to keep the wife.

**please note I am making generalizations here as I just want a narrow response to help the people sitting before me**

I need to know what is going through the strayers mind... I get the biochemical reactions, I understand the lust stage, but there has to be something that I can do the snap them out of the fog??

*Those that have cheated: Why did you do it, what were you searching for, how did you stop?

Those that have been betrayed: Explain your heart ache to me please, I need to understand the rawness of this wound and what it did to you; initially, as time went on, and as you exist today. Can you share why they said they did it? How did it end? 

They say only 3% of couples that start out as affairs make it long term... And if I believed all my strayers I have the lucky practice where that tiny percent have migrated too.... arg! It is all the same just different names

I understand there is a lot of hate and disapproval placed on the cheater in this forum and I get that fully, however I am in this profession to help and I help the them all: the cheater, the betrayed, and the children.

But how can I help when the cheater doesn't understand the language I am speaking....

Thank you in advance for take the time. You all are so wonderful on here and provide such a sense of strong community and to that and for those that need it I am so grateful to you*


----------



## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

I am a BS my wife's PA lasted about 6 months. The only thing that snapped her out of the fog was the disapproval of her family, friends and kids and the very real threat of divorce. After my wife was caught, she feigned remorse, cried promised that was a closed chapter in our lives. She wrote a NC letter and then went right back to contact

She drove the A deeper. The PA turned into an EA with emails, calls, pictures. I was a fool not to expose because that is when she had her oh Sh1t moment and then getting served D papers

You were right she was in the fog with all the biochemical lust crap going on.

A close friend of mine had an PA a few years ago and when was caught he shut the other woman down fast and hard. The emotional connection was not there. He was not getting sex at home so he went out to get sex. He had a home a family but not sex from his wife. Yes it was very wrong but he had no problem disconnecting but he missed the intimacy he was getting from the OW.

As far as the pain it has to be close to losing a child. I have no reference to that but I could not focus, sleep, eat. I drank at night to try and sleep for at least a few hours. In my case I found extensive photos, videos, detailed emails and the mind movies we terrible. At times they still are. I am not sure if they will ever completely go away.

I have never been an angry of violent person but it came out of me like a river. The only reason I am not in jail is I could not do that to my kids. I still get angry from time to time. Also when I travel for work I trigger badly.

I hope this helps you


----------



## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

Hi, I'm a BS, almost 8 months past DDay.

1) explain my heartache. 
The first day was the worst. I couldn't stop shaking and it felt like I was going through a very real trauma. My world shattered around me. I'm usually good at controlling my emotions and trying to talk rationally and openly about things, but for the first week, I was a wreck. I cried constantly, felt like a child who needed to be held but was abandoned by everyone. 

This heartache brought back all of my past traumas. It didn't take me long to realize that they were all connected. H knew I had been sexually assaulted and cheated on in the past. He felt so bad about that for me, but it didn't stop him from doing the same to me. So I not only had to deal with the present situation, but everything else came flooding back. It felt like I was drowning in pain. But this one hurt most of all, because I trusted him most of all. I gave him everything and he still choose to abandon me. Since then it's been an uphill battle to regain some self-esteem. I still wonder sometimes what's so wrong with me that I deserve to be abandoned and abused. My children have been my strength. I'm not sure how I would have made it through without them. I know they love me. It helps me to see that I do have worth.

Today, I still think about what I'm going to do every day. I usually get lost thinking about him and what he's doing, so I have to snap myself back and work on my own recovery. I'm finding it difficult to get out of limbo. I don't feel strong enough to make decisions yet.

2)My H's why:
He snapped out of it quickly, it seems, compared to other WSs. He only tried to put any blame on me the day after DDay, but when he saw the further pain it caused me, he stopped. He couldn't stand to see the pain he has caused, and it helped him to start looking at himself. He is a multi-addict, which we both denied for a very long time. It took him a while (maybe a month), but he finally went for some help. Now he's in recovery programs and doing the hard work.

In regards to his EA/online PA, he says that he did it because he felt the need to stop hiding from everyone. He had a shameful side that he was desperate to keep hidden from me because he actually cared what I thought. He was afraid of me abandoning him if I learned the truth. With the OW, he would be honest and wouldn't care if she abused him for it. He got addicted to abuse and could only get sexually aroused from being humiliated by women. The relationship with this woman (an old high school friend) went on for 5 years. 

The other day, he said that people in relationship are supposed to trust each other. I asked him why he strung me along if he knew I couldn't trust him, he just said "I'm a selfish a**hole". 

3?how did it end?
I never ever snooped on him, but for some reason, I did this particular day. The night before, he was acting dismissive and distant and something triggered in me. That night I had dreams of us divorcing. The next day, I opened his skype and saw a chat between him and the OW. They were planning to meet up and she told him that she was falling in love with him. I confronted immediately, which I now regret. He deleted everything. I no longer have proof. He immediately threw the OW under a bus. I still have trouble believing he could just drop someone like that. What does that say about him?

Anyway, I hope this was helpful.


----------



## Liesandlies (Oct 24, 2013)

I fall into neither category at the moment but my guess is that your cases would be very difficult as I think woman having affairs have done so for emotional reasons where the typical male cheater it's purely sex. An emotionally checked out woman would be hard to turn back on course with her marriage.


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I am a betrayed male in R. If you want some layman's advice to make you a better infidelity counselor, here's what mine would be:

Help the WS understand the moral implications of what they've done. Don't placate them or encourage them to blame their A on anything other than their own failings - not unlike an alcoholic. Help them understand that they need to "own" what they did and make amends. Help them understand the importance of demonstrating remorse if they want to R with their spouse.

As for the BS, understand that before the marriage can be worked on, the aftermath of the affair has to be dealt with. You should focus on the hurt and depression of the BS before and above anything else; and that takes time.

You may not be popular with every WS using this approach and you may loose a few clients because of it. But you'll damn sure be a better infidelity counselor.


----------



## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Lets not forget that woman tend to truly justify the affair in their mind, most men do not or at least not for long.
Due to this, woman are much less likely to admit fully the wrong doing as they are too busy giving reasons to justify why the H is the reason.
Men (most) are trying to fill a physical void. Woman seem to go into a very deep affair fog and there are a few great ways to lift this fog, none better than full exposure to all that are in her life, exposure to the wife of her affair partner, the wife's family, friends, etc... This makes her activity look sleazy and cheap, makes it public, and having all in her life judge her for it takes the fantasy enjoyment out of the equation.


----------



## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

Maybe you can get some input from the reconciling couples on this thread if they are willing.http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html This is a very open and supportive thread for both the waywards and the betrayed who are really committed to saving their marriages.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

You can read my story here if you like, maybe it will provide some insight

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/32264-hello.html#post434954

This link is also extremely informative

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Read the opening post by angelilly. It seems to be a very raw, honest view of how self-centered their thinking can be.

The wheels need to completely fall off before they can be helped.

Do you often counsel betrayed husbands (BHs) to divorce? It seems that D is often a better option for men at this point.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> 90% of the cheaters are female up to this point in my practice


Some reasons this might be happening are that there is something about you that attracts couples in which the wife has cheated. 
It’s often harder to recover a marriage when the woman cheats as women usually cheat as an exit affair. By the times she’s cheating, she’s given up on the marriage and is already out the door. Perhaps couples are more likely to seek out MC when one party is reluctant to work on the marriage. If this is the case you might very well see more couples with female cheaters.
What age rage are you mostly dealing with?



jmiller2020 said:


> The female gender strayers are not willing to work on it. It seems that when they check out and start emotionally bonding with another they completely shut off the spouse, family, and even their children.
> 
> The male gender strayers are willing to fight for the marriage and change what ever then need to get the family back and to keep the wife.


Men and women tend to cheat for different reasons. Men most often cheat for the excitement. They have no intention of leaving their wife and love their wife. Women most often cheat because they no longer want to be married to their husband due to marital issues that never get solved, etc. The woman are already out of the marriage.




jmiller2020 said:


> I need to know what is going through the strayers mind... I get the biochemical reactions, I understand the lust stage, but there has to be something that I can do the snap them out of the fog??


 I suggest you read the book “Surviving an Affair” by Dr. Harley. It covers a lot of what you are asking.


.


----------



## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

jmiller2020 said:


> there has to be something that I can do the snap them out of the fog??


Easy. EXPOSE.

Where's my doctorate degree?


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Read as many threads as you can. Some of the longest ones can be a real help. You will find the cheaters follow a basic script with small variations.

When you find out how some women turn rabid within a few days let us know.

Your biggest problem will be to not belive anything a cheater says. They regularly lie to therapists, their kids, spouses and parents. If they swear on their childrens or anyone elses life, its a big lie, everytime. Lol


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You need to check out both books linked to below also.

Good luck

How do you handle your job?


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You need to check out both books linked to below also.

Good luck

How do you handle your job?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is another thread that I think would help if you read. It's long... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/127634-something-very-creepy-happening-my-home.html


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

mahike said:


> I am a BS my wife's PA lasted about 6 months. The only thing that snapped her out of the fog was the disapproval of her family, friends and kids and the very real threat of divorce. After my wife was caught, she feigned remorse, cried promised that was a closed chapter in our lives. She wrote a NC letter and then went right back to contact
> 
> She drove the A deeper. The PA turned into an EA with emails, calls, pictures. I was a fool not to expose because that is when she had her oh Sh1t moment and then getting served D papers
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for opening up to me and describing your pain in away that make sense to me. Very powerful. I cant imagine losing a child but I can put myself in that sort of hypothetical situation to get a sense of what it must have been like for you.

What I have learned thus far is those memories and the things that linger in the back of your mind sort of protect you from it happening again. It is terrible the ramifications this has on the BS It seems to me that the WS doesn't think about the longterm effects and how it can serious change the BS forever.

Thank you again.


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

now_awake said:


> Hi, I'm a BS, almost 8 months past DDay.
> 
> 1) explain my heartache.
> The first day was the worst. I couldn't stop shaking and it felt like I was going through a very real trauma. My world shattered around me. I'm usually good at controlling my emotions and trying to talk rationally and openly about things, but for the first week, I was a wreck. I cried constantly, felt like a child who needed to be held but was abandoned by everyone.
> ...


Extremely helpful. Goodness thank you so much for being vulnerable with me and sharing details from your trauma and your trauma history. You are so brave and I am glad you focus on this day. One day at a time right

I read about men and the shame aspect. That they care too much of what the wife thinks about them (this goes both ways gender speaking) that they reach out in order to get their needs met and save face. It is so backwards... I wish they were able to simply seek us out and find real comfort from home rather than a fantasy..

Keep working on yourself it is worth finding out who we are It took me many years to slow down enough to perform some introspection but for the past two years I have been working hard on dealing with past demons and my own inner critic, I am in a different place because I faced what I had been sort of running and hiding from all my life.

Thank you so very much my heart goes out to you and I appreciate your words.


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Liesandlies said:


> I fall into neither category at the moment but my guess is that your cases would be very difficult as I think woman having affairs have done so for emotional reasons where the typical male cheater it's purely sex. An emotionally checked out woman would be hard to turn back on course with her marriage.


It is proving to be dang near impossible which is frustrating till no end! I want so desperately to shake them and wake them up... but only they can do it.

Thank you.


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

jmiller2020 said:


> Thank you so much for opening up to me and describing your pain in away that make sense to me. Very powerful. I cant imagine losing a child but I can put myself in that sort of hypothetical situation to get a sense of what it must have been like for you.
> 
> What I have learned thus far is those memories and the things that linger in the back of your mind sort of protect you from it happening again. It is terrible the ramifications this has on the BS It seems to me that the WS doesn't think about the longterm effects and how it can serious change the BS forever.
> 
> Thank you again.


The points mahike make are very valid for me. I did lose twins back in 1996 due to premature births. The hollow feeling is similar, but different.

Similar in the loss of hope for a future. Similar in the pain and the acceptence.

Different in the sense the one loss was "because it happened", the other loss was "why did you chose to make this happen."

The loss of a child has more to do with accepting God's will.

The loss of a marriage has more to do with accepting that trust is not a legitimate expectation for the one you trusted most.


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

badmemory said:


> I am a betrayed male in R. If you want some layman's advice to make you a better infidelity counselor, here's what mine would be:
> 
> Help the WS understand the moral implications of what they've done. Don't placate them or encourage them to blame their A on anything other than their own failings - not unlike an alcoholic. Help them understand that they need to "own" what they did and make amends. Help them understand the importance of demonstrating remorse if they want to R with their spouse.
> 
> ...


I just have a second but I wanted to say thank you for your insight it is very helpful. I am not looking to be popular and if I lose a WS then they weren't ready to hear the truth. I agree with you and again thank you


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> 90% of the cheaters are female up to this point in my practice


And I am guessing that 90% of the cheaters they cheat with are male? 

Just a wild guess...


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> I need to know what is going through the strayers mind... I get the biochemical reactions, I understand the lust stage, *but there has to be something that I can do the snap them out of the fog??
> *


*

As a therapist, you should know that people do not stop a behavior or decide to make a change until they actually want to.

Nothing you can do or say to them is going to make them stop cheating/drug-abusing, etc unless they take a stand to.

Just saying.



*


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Lets not forget that woman tend to truly justify the affair in their mind, most men do not or at least not for long.
> Due to this, woman are much less likely to admit fully the wrong doing as they are too busy giving reasons to justify why the H is the reason.
> Men (most) are trying to fill a physical void. Woman seem to go into a very deep affair fog and there are a few great ways to lift this fog, none better than full exposure to all that are in her life, exposure to the wife of her affair partner, the wife's family, friends, etc... This makes her activity look sleazy and cheap, makes it public, and having all in her life judge her for it takes the fantasy enjoyment out of the equation.


You are right! They can go on and on for sessions describing all the wrong, bad, ineffective things the BS has done to them and not even truly reflect on the fact that they stepped out.

I do feel that once an affair is out in the open the whole secret dark fantasy is shattered then the fog can lift.. It is hard to convey that to the BS though that is also dealing with their own shame and does not want anyone to know it is happening. Any advice on that?

Also BS have said if I tell all her friends and family then she has no reason to stay. Right now she is staying with me to keep it quiet... That is another hard hurdle for them to hop over and to see that light will make all this dream land bs dissolve much quicker!


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

TBT said:


> Maybe you can get some input from the reconciling couples on this thread if they are willing.http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/52974-reconciliation.html This is a very open and supportive thread for both the waywards and the betrayed who are really committed to saving their marriages.


Thank you so much I am new to this site so I will check that out.


----------



## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

These contains some thoughts you've asked about 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/40052-understanding-pain-7.html


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

You all are so amazing! Thank you! I will check out the resources and various personal threads posted.

Time to take my professional cap off and take my boy to preschool


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lovemytruck said:


> The points mahike make are very valid for me. I did lose twins back in 1996 due to premature births. The hollow feeling is similar, but different.
> 
> Similar in the loss of hope for a future. Similar in the pain and the acceptence.
> 
> ...


I too lost twins, in 1986. They were still born.

Both the loss of the twins and my husband's infidelity were excruciatingly painful and life changing.

To me the difference is intent and trust.

In the loss of the twins, there was no intent. It was an act of nature. There was no one I could be angry with. Sure I had a few anger yelling sessions at God, but what good does that do really?

With the affair, is was the very person who has promised to love and protect me who made purposeful decisions to do things that he knew would destroy so much. But he did not care. His selfish needs/desires were more important to him than I am. He set out to purposely stab me in the back and purposely hurt me. That is very devastating.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> You are right! They can go on and on for sessions describing all the wrong, bad, ineffective things the BS has done to them and not even truly reflect on the fact that they stepped out.
> 
> I do feel that once an affair is out in the open the whole secret dark fantasy is shattered then the fog can lift.. It is hard to convey that to the BS though that is also dealing with their own shame and does not want anyone to know it is happening. Any advice on that?
> 
> Also BS have said if I tell all her friends and family then she has no reason to stay. Right now she is staying with me to keep it quiet... That is another hard hurdle for them to hop over and to see that light will make all this dream land bs dissolve much quicker!


When it comes to the topic of disclosure, its purpose is of utmost importance.

The purpose is not to shame or ‘out’ the cheater. NO matter what a person has done, it’s not their spouse’s place to publically humiliate and shame them.

The purpose of disclosure is to get support for marital recovery from people who the WS cares about. For example if the WS respects their parents, then telling the parents and asking for their support in recovery makes sense.

Making a public announcement on Facebook to all of the WS’s Facebook friends is mostly done to shame them. Very often most Facebook friends hardly even know the WS. They are not friends of the marriage. These people mostly could care less if the WS is cheating. They just don’t want to be part of the WS/BS’s drama.

Exposure to the AP’s spouse and/or parents is of very important. The purpose in this is not to shame the WS but instead to send the AP scrambling to repair their own marriage and their own life. When this happens, generally the AP will drop the WS like a hot potato. It usually works wonders

The advice I always give on exposure is to do it very strategically, with a select few, with the intent to get support for recovery.


----------



## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

Lovemytruck. I am sorry I picked something that hit so close to home for you. All my best Mahike


----------



## mahike (Aug 16, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> You are right! They can go on and on for sessions describing all the wrong, bad, ineffective things the BS has done to them and not even truly reflect on the fact that they stepped out.
> 
> I do feel that once an affair is out in the open the whole secret dark fantasy is shattered then the fog can lift.. It is hard to convey that to the BS though that is also dealing with their own shame and does not want anyone to know it is happening. Any advice on that?
> 
> Also BS have said if I tell all her friends and family then she has no reason to stay. Right now she is staying with me to keep it quiet... That is another hard hurdle for them to hop over and to see that light will make all this dream land bs dissolve much quicker!


I understand the feeling about exposing (she might leave) I did not at first and it went further underground. As everyone on TAM told me to expose. I thought I was taking the high road and not exposing, remaining a classy guy. What I did was make a big mistake. I went the direct root when I did expose. The POS's wife my kids, her best friend and that was it. Her parents being gone and her sister also had an PA and left her husband for another woman.

My wife was angry very angry but it was her still trying to protect her lover the man she had an emotional attachment too. Not me not the husband of 29 years. The anger passed in less then a day and then I saw the true remorse I had been praying for.

My wife in MC wanted to go right for what was wrong with our marriage instead of trying to deal with the A. It took a couple of sessions before our MC told her that we can deal with our marriage issues once we dealt with the A and the pain she inflicted on me.


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

mahike said:


> Lovemytruck. I am sorry I picked something that hit so close to home for you. All my best Mahike


My friend, no apology is needed. Life is full of good and painful memories.

It seems the darkest nights make the sunshine feel even brighter.

I love my other kids more because we lost babies.

I love my new wife more because she is trustworthy and giving.

My goal is to help others because I understand their pain. Many people never have the opportunity to know the depths of sorrow or betrayal. 

In my mind the experiences are a gift.


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> You can read my story here if you like, maybe it will provide some insight
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/reconciliation/32264-hello.html#post434954
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing the link I will.


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

I am a clinical counselor and a betrayed spouse, currently in R. I went through a false R for over a year, while my wife never stopped seeing the XOM and was lying the entire time. She went to counseling and pulled the wool over her eyes.

I would suggest looking at Peggy Vaughan's stuff.

Marriagemissions.com is a resource I have used. It is Christian based as is focus on the family.

There is quite a bit out there, but a lot of junk. 

What you need to understand as much as you can is what the BS and the WS is feeling. If the WS is still in the fog of the A, that will be a challenge. I would tell my clients that there are no secrets. You need to be fair to both clients, but I would not put up with lies.

Since my wife's A's I have dealt with cheaters in my practise. I can empatize with them and can also cut through the BS. I feel like I have a PH.D. in this crap.


----------



## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

jmiller, here's another good thread on the exposure hows and whys. 

Exposure 101 - Your Most Powerful Weapon - Marriage Builders® Forums


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Read the opening post by angelilly. It seems to be a very raw, honest view of how self-centered their thinking can be.
> 
> The wheels need to completely fall off before they can be helped.
> 
> Do you often counsel betrayed husbands (BHs) to divorce? It seems that D is often a better option for men at this point.


Thank you I will look into the first post by angelily.

I counsel BH and BW. Depending on how they want to proceed. If they want to fight for it male or female I roll up my sleeves and fight with them. I hold the hope if there is none and we go to work. In that process if it is a really bad situation and it is not in the best interest (mental health wise) for the BH to continue pursuing the WS I will be open and honest. I do not sugar coat things because that is just a waste of time. I try to provide the service they are looking for and the advice that I feel is most helpful.

However I am new to the powers of infidelity. That is why I am here. I guess I have never found something other than Herein as addicting, it is a monster. I honestly had no idea how profound and deep the hooks of infidelity can get a person. I guess the biggest thing that will stay with me forever is watching more than one woman walk away from her young children for the OM.. wrecks me thinking about it. That is why I am so passionate because that to me is just not natural.

I mean I get it they can replace the blame but what did the children do?


----------



## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

Its been touched on here and many other threads as well.

In general it seems that women will cheat out of 'emotional' needs while for men, they cheat more for physical reasons. A big generalization but seems to play out often.

This might help explain why the women don't really want to work on recovery as much since they may be really emotionally checked out already and have lost the "bond" with their husband/family.

Men on the other hand, can be very eager to work on repairing the relationship because an affair "really was just about the sex".

Fair disclosure, my opinions were formed just from reading and such. No actual experience (thankfully).


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Some reasons this might be happening are that there is something about you that attracts couples in which the wife has cheated.
> It’s often harder to recover a marriage when the woman cheats as women usually cheat as an exit affair. By the times she’s cheating, she’s given up on the marriage and is already out the door. Perhaps couples are more likely to seek out MC when one party is reluctant to work on the marriage. If this is the case you might very well see more couples with female cheaters.
> What age rage are you mostly dealing with?
> 
> ...



I do believe in the attraction process so I get what you are saying (great question). 

The age range is 30-48.

I never thought of it as an exit affair (thank you for that).

And yes that makes sense as to why the husbands are willing to do whatever it takes to get the wife to forgive because they truly never intended on leaving in the first place.

Do you often find that men get sick of leading the double life? Every male cheater thus far has exhaled and said to be honest I was glad I was caught, not because of the pain I would cause my wife but I was damn tired living a double life."

I got the book ordered thanks!


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> Read as many threads as you can. Some of the longest ones can be a real help. You will find the cheaters follow a basic script with small variations.
> 
> When you find out how some women turn rabid within a few days let us know.
> 
> Your biggest problem will be to not belive anything a cheater says. They regularly lie to therapists, their kids, spouses and parents. If they swear on their childrens or anyone elses life, its a big lie, everytime. Lol


The lies is what got to me. I was treating a couple for over a year and I had asked the tough questions and 100% believed the WS that she was done with the EA and she was trying but just couldn't redevelop feelings for her hubby...

Finally after the husband did the whole PI thing he discovered it had been going on the entire time. I thought back to all the things she swore on (children's lives, deceased individuals etc) I was floored absolutely could not believe she had fooled me for that long. Here I am the shrink and I felt like a fool cant imagine the BS


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Chaparral said:


> You need to check out both books linked to below also.
> 
> Good luck
> 
> How do you handle your job?


I will thank you.

This population and anything involving a child sadly I bring home with me. I feel like infidelity is an epidemic and I truly want to get to the bottom of it. One thing that I find interesting in a lot of studies is the sense of entitlement. That the WS feels entitled to have the affair... With our (US) culture raising more and more youngsters to feel as though they are entitled to have it all that freaks me out. I hope somehow I can make a dent in this trend...


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> The points mahike make are very valid for me. I did lose twins back in 1996 due to premature births. The hollow feeling is similar, but different.
> 
> Similar in the loss of hope for a future. Similar in the pain and the acceptence.
> 
> ...


Thank you for elaborating on his way of relating... I am sorry for both of your losses... It is so terrible that the ones we become most vulnerable with have the power to debilitate us with one choice... It is such a harsh way to lose our innocence in believing in trust.


----------



## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

My husband and I have been in MC for over three years now since he cheated, and one thing I can tell you to make sure you emphasize to the BS is that the cheating is NONE of their responsibility. The WS is 100% responsible for what they did. The state of the marriage, however, is something they both take responsibility for, and they need to work on having the best marriage they ever can. Gottmans 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work was a godsend for us in that regard.

WS's usually need IC in order to figure out why they cheated. If they're serious about fixing the marriage.

And the WS has GOT to come 100% clean. Suggest a polygraph. Wonder what would have happened if you'd suggested to that lying WW that she take one??

Shirley Glass book Not Just Friends is another book that every couple should read, especially if they're dealing with infidelity.

And if you ever run into someone like my husband who is a sex addict, PLEASE refer them to a certified sex addiction therapist. Trying to deal with a sex addict when you aren't a CSAT does more harm than good. The IC my husband was seeing didn't help at all - he concluded his sessions with her and then promptly went out and hired a hooker (it's all in my story). If he had been referred to a CSAT like he should have been, I don't think that ever would have happened.


----------



## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> The lies is what got to me. I was treating a couple for over a year and I had asked the tough questions and 100% believed the WS that she was done with the EA and she was trying but just couldn't redevelop feelings for her hubby...
> 
> Finally after the husband did the whole PI thing he discovered it had been going on the entire time. I thought back to all the things she swore on (children's lives, deceased individuals etc) I was floored absolutely could not believe she had fooled me for that long. Here I am the shrink and I felt like a fool cant imagine the BS


It is something that you learn over time. There are signs that liars make in their body laungage, phrases that can tip you off to lies. Some of the signs are subtle and some are just blatant. One of my clients was having marital issues. I suspected that his wife was cheating on him or was about to cheat. Turned out that he was cheating. My senses were correct in that there was cheating going on in this marriage by just what they were saying and reacting to each other. There were subtle clues that one or the other was cheating. I picked the wrong one. So, yes, ouch.

You will also find that as you do more research that you will be more decerning in seeing certain behaviors and hone in on those. A cheater lies, and those lies after time don't add up and in the sessions you will hear something that just does not add up. Cheater behavior is fairly consistant. Not always but more consistant then not. My counselor in 2010 predicted that my wife would have a PA and he never met her and to my pain he was correct. 

Takes time and experience.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> Thank you I will look into the first post by angelily.
> 
> I counsel BH and BW. Depending on how they want to proceed. If they want to fight for it male or female I roll up my sleeves and fight with them. I hold the hope if there is none and we go to work. In that process if it is a really bad situation and it is not in the best interest (mental health wise) for the BH to continue pursuing the WS I will be open and honest. I do not sugar coat things because that is just a waste of time. I try to provide the service they are looking for and the advice that I feel is most helpful.
> 
> ...


You only work with the betrayed spouse and not the WS?


----------



## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

jmiller2020 said:


> Thank you I will look into the first post by angelily.
> 
> I counsel BH and BW. Depending on how they want to proceed. If they want to fight for it male or female I roll up my sleeves and fight with them. I hold the hope if there is none and we go to work. *In that process if it is a really bad situation and it is not in the best interest (mental health wise) for the BH to continue pursuing the WS I will be open and honest. I do not sugar coat things because that is just a waste of time.* I try to provide the service they are looking for and the advice that I feel is most helpful.
> 
> ...


Good points. I respect my MC that asked me on the 1st visit what I wanted to do. He made sure that I understood it was far more painful to give false hope to my exWW, or drag my sons through it.

He reminded me that the guilt I had for wanting a D after being betrayed was misplaced. He reminded me of the story of Jesus clearing money-changers from the temple. I am not a big fan of mixing religion and marriage therapy, but this was a good lesson for me.

It seems that there is a risk/reward issue that you must face.

We all want the odds to be in our favor, but I really feel when the damage is so deep, it is easier to heal for both the BS and WS with a fresh start.

My hope is maybe a couple could R if they started from neutrality. Get divorced, live apart for a year or two, date other people, then remarry. It is probably rare. Most would elect to find a new partner because there are no wounds in a new relationship.

For kids I feel badly. It was not their choice either. The betrayal, or the divorce are simply not of their chosing. They are robbed in a way similar to the BS. Maybe the age of the kids has much to do with the desire to R or D.

Kids should not be the glue in a marriage either.

I would think a great step-parent would be better than a lousy biological parent for kids.

Things one must consider when facing a betrayal.

It is amazing what adults will do for sex/emotional validation.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> Do you often find that men get sick of leading the double life? Every male cheater thus far has exhaled and said to be honest I was glad I was caught, not because of the pain I would cause my wife but I was damn tired living a double life."


Most WS, male and female usually find out that cheating is not now fun thing. Living the double life, lying, sneaking around, etc. takes a lot of work. Living if fear is emotionally draining for them. I’ve heard just about every cheater I’m spoken to say that living the double life is hard, exhausting. And most surprisingly most end up feeling like they let themselves down. They did something that they never thought they were capable of. 

There are also I believe more than one type of cheater.
I’ve read that only about 15%-20% of all cheaters ever repeat. Most are people who fall from grace with their life for a while. At some point they pull themselves together and never do it again.

There is another type however who are real serial cheaters. Some are narcissists who just use people for their own reasons and have no capacity for empathy. They see others simply as a means to their own goals. 

Some are people who are BP or have other mental illness that lead them to act out, often seeking risky behaviors. Of course not all people with BP/mental illness cheat. These things can manifest differently in different people.

Then there are those who just have bad morals. For example my son’s father was like this. His father cheated, to the point of brining his affair partner home for his wife to serve dinner to. My ex thinks things like “what she does not know does not hurt her” and that men have the prerogative to cheat. Many men are brought up with this attitude.

Another book that you might find interesting is “The Erotic Silence of the American Wife” by Dalma Heyn. I think you might find her conclusions surprising.


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Hope1964 said:


> My husband and I have been in MC for over three years now since he cheated, and one thing I can tell you to make sure you emphasize to the BS is that the cheating is NONE of their responsibility. The WS is 100% responsible for what they did. The state of the marriage, however, is something they both take responsibility for, and they need to work on having the best marriage they ever can. Gottmans 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work was a godsend for us in that regard.
> 
> WS's usually need IC in order to figure out why they cheated. If they're serious about fixing the marriage.
> 
> ...


That is a good point about the affair being 100% their doing. I go about working with couples that the affair is a symptom not an illness. But this helps in terms of the replacement of blame. Yes he neglected your emotional needs for X amount of years but you made the choice to turn your back and step out not him... Thank you that helps.

The John and Julie Gottman are amazing I am actually am level 2 clinician in their work. I find their research and therapeutic techniques to be a huge help for relationships. 

I agree SA is a real thing and not something that I am trained in, I will listen to your advice and thank you for sharing your personal experience with a therapist that was not specifically trained for it.


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> You only work with the betrayed spouse and not the WS?


No I work with both. The question was directed towards BH that was what I was speaking to


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Most WS, male and female usually find out that cheating is not now fun thing. Living the double life, lying, sneaking around, etc. takes a lot of work. Living if fear is emotionally draining for them. I’ve heard just about every cheater I’m spoken to say that living the double life is hard, exhausting. And most surprisingly most end up feeling like they let themselves down. They did something that they never thought they were capable of.
> 
> There are also I believe more than one type of cheater.
> I’ve read that only about 15%-20% of all cheaters ever repeat. Most are people who fall from grace with their life for a while. At some point they pull themselves together and never do it again.
> ...



Do you happen to know where you read that statistic? That would be a big comfort for so many that struggle with "What if he/she does it again?" I am a big nerd hence my love for the Gottmans but I just like to know where my stats are coming from

I will look at book now thank you!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jmiller2020 said:


> Do you happen to know where you read that statistic? That would be a big comfort for so many that struggle with "What if he/she does it again?" I am a big nerd hence my love for the Gottmans but I just like to know where my stats are coming from
> 
> I will look at book now thank you!


By the way, on the "Erotic Silence Book", I disagree with what is said in both of the reviews. Her main conclusions come at the end of the book. And they are not what is talked about in the reviews.


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> By the way, on the "Erotic Silence Book", I disagree with what is said in both of the reviews. Her main conclusions come at the end of the book. And they are not what is talked about in the reviews.


I am reading a sample chapter now


----------



## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

In what area of the world do you practice? 

Or the couple that you mentioned that you work for/with?


----------



## Twistedheart (May 17, 2010)

It seems the rabbit hole goes a lot further than you ever imagined. And coming from a licensed therapist even, I am not surprised at all. I've read thread after thread about this therapist/counceler said this and that one said that and I (we,TAM) could tell right away how off base they were because of their lack of knowledge on this subject. It is a phenomenon (almost an exact science) and more addicting than any drug if you ask me.

It is something that is really hard to understand unless you've been through it or have some extensive training, like yourself. You seem to be extra motivated in getting this right. And I for one hope that you do. There are lots of people that could use the proper help. This site has helped scores more than any therapist could, so far. Good luck!


----------



## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

Twistedheart said:


> It seems the rabbit hole goes a lot further than you ever imagined. And coming from a licensed therapist even, I am not surprised at all. I've read thread after thread about this therapist/counceler said this and that one said that and I (we,TAM) could tell right away how off base they were because of their lack of knowledge on this subject. It is a phenomenon (almost an exact science) and more addicting than any drug if you ask me.
> 
> It is something that is really hard to understand unless you've been through it or have some extensive training, like yourself. You seem to be extra motivated in getting this right. And I for one hope that you do. There are lots of people that could use the proper help. This site has helped scores more than any therapist could, so far. Good luck!


I have a 5" binder full of research, I have read book after book on infidelty and affairs, and yet nothing holds a candle to actually speaking to those and learning from those that have been through it. I came accoss this site last month and started reading threads. I am just blown away by how many have been hurt and how much support is here. The vast number of people viewing "coping with infidelity" takes my breath away...My heart breaks when I read your stories. I truly want to help but I cant give my clients that precious piece that comes from knowing and experience on this topic. Thank you all again for educating me in such a way and taking the time to respond. I value all your feedback and genuinly appreciate your vulnerablitly.


----------



## now_awake (May 29, 2013)

jmiller2020 said:


> Extremely helpful. Goodness thank you so much for being vulnerable with me and sharing details from your trauma and your trauma history. You are so brave and I am glad you focus on this day. One day at a time right
> 
> I read about men and the shame aspect. That they care too much of what the wife thinks about them (this goes both ways gender speaking) that they reach out in order to get their needs met and save face. It is so backwards... I wish they were able to simply seek us out and find real comfort from home rather than a fantasy..
> 
> ...


You're welcome! It's pretty easy to open up on a fairly anonymous forum.


----------

