# A Narcissist Borderline Relationship



## hello86

I am new to marriage forums. I have been married for 3 years have a 2 year old and 1 on the way. I'll start off by saying that I plan on putting up with everything I can handle and potentially change about myself before I decide on divorce so please no "why are you still with her comments".

We started out a loving couple, very "she is my soulmate" feelings for the both of us. We are both Drs. which has given us a nice $350,000 student loan debt. Right out of school & 2 months into our marriage my wife was let go from her job and we suddenly moved to my hometown & was pregnant leaving her not working for a year. She is very driven though, so 2 months after giving birth she had opened our very own office, which I moved in to 6 months later. In this time period we have lived in my parents house (old bedroom) and in an apartment (within my parents family business) for 3 years. We are moving into our own apartment this weekend further away from my parents.

I have some questions and some venting. Throughout this tough time (some have said, extremely tough considering our situations) we have changed & grown. I have come to the realization that we both have personality problems. 

I for one seem to fit the narcissist category. I was raised with constant praise by my mother (who now that I'm older I notice is very manipulative and will talk horribly about people behind their back which ultimately severed my father and his families relationship). I also feel unnecessary guilt about things as simple as not being able to fix everything and horrible feelings & fear of failure. In my youth I always felt bullied and needed constant "pumping up" and used my success in athletics as a coping mechanism. Once without my athletics in real life I had a hard time handling it. In relationships I found women that would never amount to a long relationship and those great ones I did find I pushed them away for feeling "too boring". 

My wife on the other hand was born to a mother of 16yrs old and has a severely severed relationship with her father who left her mother just a couple years old. She states that her relationship with her dad was a typical divorced family but just 2 years ago he remarried and now has a 4yr old and another son that is the same age as ours. She has traits of a borderline personality disorder with fits of extreme rage that pick and pick with what seems like the goal of ultimately chipping away your self esteem to nothing.

If anyone has issues like me and has been in this situation you realize the trouble that I am in. I feel the need to hold the power in the relationship while she actually will demoralize me to gain control. The fighting involves personal attacks and vulgar language for what seems like no apparent reason to me, and only when I am at my most insecure will she let up. Trying to regain any amount of power in the relationship will just cause more outbursts and hateful talk. I will be honest and say that I have retaliated with my own outbursts at times but over the last few months have really tried to gain control of myself and grasp the root cause of the problem. I have given up all caffeine, sugar, and sleep as regularly as possible to help limit things that will make me tire or cranky.

Just recently I have noticed that our 2 year old will scream when he notices our fights escalating and it almost brought me to tears knowing that our actions are so noticeable to him and are molding his personality, and most likely leading to a personality disorder of his own.

I know fighting like this isn't normal. I know I can't be the only one out there going through a situation like this and I know there has to be a certain percentage of couples that are similar to mine and have been able to work though it. To those people I ask your advice on ways that I can learn to cope with this situation. Trust me I have come a very long way and I am willing to do anything I need to.


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## forumman83

Is she in any way, shape, or form, self-aware meaning she will look at herself and take responsibility for her shortcomings?

How self-aware are you? 

Coming to TAM is a good start but it sounds like its going to take two here.


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## dixieangel

I've been reading about the narcissist/borderline relationship for the last few years. My husband and I have been together for 8 years and it has been the most difficult I've ever been in by far. My first marriage was 15 years and I didn't have these kinds of problems. 

We have been to 2 different counselors and they didn't help. The 2nd one was suppose to be trained in PTSD and trauma...but my last visit she said she wasn't here to fix personality disorders. Then she mentioned that she doesn't understand why people stay together when they are obviously so unhappy together. So needless to say, I didn't feel the need to go back to her either and gave up on counseling.

I can't give you advice because I feel like I'm in the same boat. But, it would be great to vent sometime. Neither of us have been diagnosed, but we both agree the traits are there....

Right now we are sleeping in different rooms and I'm very hurt. Hate to throw away 8 years, some of which were the best times of my life, but so tired of the arguing.


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## hello86

Self aware is the word I've been looking for. We have gone to couples counseling before but I feel that she only goes because she wants me to go. She decided to go to a therapist on her own before but came back saying the woman "took her side on everything" and said she should divorce me. My wife then Recommended the couples therapist. So no I don't think she is self aware. There is no way that the arguments we have can be one persons fault they become too explosive but she is not willing to take action. I have mentioned that she can't swear in front of our son and she responds, well quit being an ass and treating me like **** and I will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dixieangel

Kinda feel like you don't even speak the same language at times?


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## hello86

It is frustrating to read So much stuff online about this type of relationship but yet no success stories about people working through it. The trouble is that I have a hard time accepting the mairraige could be a failure and I worry about the backlash from her if it doesn't work out. I see the way her mother is, 30 urs later and still talks horribly about my wife's father. I see the way the mother has manipulated my wife in to hating her father and I just feel that if this doesn't work out she will make it her sole purpose in life to make my children hate me and disown me. But I love them so much. Is this just something I should start coping with now, distancing myself from my children so I will be able to hadle the eventual divorce down the road to make it easier for me? Or do I suck it up for as long as possible to try to makes kids lives as normal as possible until the sudden day comes that it all comes crashing down for real and them I just man up and pick up the pieces knowing that my kids will be better off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hello86

Yup, she is a stress and workaholic. I am constantly trying to feed her potential hobbies or find tv shows we can sit down and watch together. But I have started worrying more and more because if I tell her a show is good and we sit down and she doesn't like it (which is more often than not) she gets angry and it ruins the night. I was never a liar too but have found that I keep things from her if they don't directly involve her because I don't want to risk the backlash. For example asking if she wants to go out to dinner withy friends. I know the answer is no so now I just tell my friends she is working and I just meet up with them alone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dixieangel

I've read BPD can be treated successfully with DBT but it is expensive and takes time. I have read books on Narcissism and seen programs online that say it can be cured too.

As far as the children go. Your wife has to know that turning the kids against you hurts them. I had to take a course about this before I was allowed to get a divorce in the state I live in. It is that important. Kids are hurt enough by divorce without parents making it worse by badmouthing each other.


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## oldgeezer

hello86 said:


> Yup, she is a stress and workaholic. I am constantly trying to feed her potential hobbies or find tv shows we can sit down and watch together. But I have started worrying more and more because if I tell her a show is good and we sit down and she doesn't like it (which is more often than not) she gets angry and it ruins the night. I was never a liar too but have found that I keep things from her if they don't directly involve her because I don't want to risk the backlash. For example asking if she wants to go out to dinner withy friends. I know the answer is no so now I just tell my friends she is working and I just meet up with them alone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no answers. My experience is much the same as yours. 

She (wife) is absolutely certain that the conflicts that she searches for to start are my fault. She worked for a time about 150 miles away, stayed for a few days, home for a few days . She used to come home, put down the luggage, and comb the house for something to yell at me about. And, having a cupboard door ajar in the kitchen was sufficient reason to have an angry screaming fit at me. After all, she said, it wasn't enough that she had to go and work in some far away place, she had to come home and do all the work at home. 


It once took her searching every room in the house for almost 20 minutes to find the excuse, till she found her pillow moved a bit ( I had changed sheets) and started the tirade about why can't you stop throwing my stuff around...blah blah blah. 

I actually have never been able to ascertain precisely the mechanism that leads to these, nor the actual reason why they happen. 

I just know that what she says is the pretext for what she wants to DO, but rarely, if ever, the reason. For instance, I learned that getting yelled at for having left some lights on actually was caused by the fact that she had overdrawn the bank account and racked up 200 dollars in fees. I was supposed to be scrimping miserly so we'd make it through the budget. Of course, I didn't know that, nor would a few light bulbs being on a few extra house make any significant difference. 

I am NOT the personality type that is empathetic. I have to analyze behavior, patterns, trends, and spot consistencies and inconsistencies in order to get a handle on stuff. So, why the screaming rant at me? I don't know. I have absolutely no idea what the mechanism is that brings that out. 

But, your description has certain strikingly familiar similarities. I suspect the topic at hand or event at hand is completely unrelated, but is the pretext for whatever behavior caused by unknown reasons.


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## CanadianGuy

Perhaps I am mistaken but I thought one of the signs of Narcissism was the feeling that no one could understand your problems. You seem to have no difficulty expressing them here and asking for input. Based on what you have said about retaining power in the relationship it sounds like you may need to learn to let the small stuff go. As someone else pointed out to me on these forums I needed to decide which hill was worth dying on. 

Also it sounds like the name calling and vulgar profanities when arguing is plain and simply bullying. It is important when she looses her cool that you keep yours at all times no matter what. Sometimes speaking in a quieter than normal voice gets the other person to calm down and pay more attention. Do not lose sight of the initial topic and/or discussion even if she is throwing f bombs left and right as that's meant to distract and disrupt you. 

After your heated discussions go into the garage and let it fly on a punching bag or go for a run or do 1000 push/sit ups. I know that may sound simple but it may work for you as athletics sounded like a big part of your life in the past. You may need to call on it here. 

Forgive me if the following sounds presumptuous. My father was a DR. His advice always followed a particular pattern. Diagnosis then prescription. Worked in medicine why not relationships? It's probably pretty rare that you ask your patients after they have shown you their ailment and before your diagnosis what they are thinking they should do about the skin rash / tired feeling / gunshot wound / etc ( I think you get the picture here). 
Do you tend to both treat each other like that?


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## hello86

It's funny you say that about "diagnosing" her because over the past few months that's what I've been working on. I keep telling myself "something else must have triggered her anger, what was it" and then once I realize that it helps me not be so sensitive to the attack. I have started talking calmly but it seems to increase her rage because I feel that she feeds off and ultimately wants a screaming match so that she can say I'm crazy. I work hard in both aspects, analysing her & keeping my cool, and admit that sometimes I break and say something stupid that she'll hold over me for months. For example after one time of her screaming at me I said, "this is nuts I don't know if I can really handle this if it keeps up". That's what she was looking for though because now she holds it over my head that I want to leave her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hello86

As for the narccisist, I read a few things saying they are people pleasers that feel extreme guilt over things most do not and put blame on themselves if they can't fix something. I have also been told i am "sensitive" which for a while really hit my self esteem which is easily broken. As of now I think I've noticed these thing and tryin to accept them and change which is why I signed up for this
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dixieangel

Lack of empathy, and constant need to be right at all costs...are the two things about narcissim that are hardest to deal with...


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## AFEH

hello86 said:


> As for the narccisist, I read a few things saying they are people pleasers that feel extreme guilt over things most do not and put blame on themselves if they can't fix something. I have also been told i am "sensitive" which for a while really hit my self esteem which is easily broken. As of now I think I've noticed these thing and tryin to accept them and change which is why I signed up for this
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don’t sound as though you are a narcissist, they very rarely “own up” and take responsibility (much like your wife).

You do however sound very much like a codependent so have a read of Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself: Amazon.co.uk: Melody Beattie: Books.

Also have a read of Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books and http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hold-Your-N...4400/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1346613764&sr=8-3.


All three are potentially life changing books. I think you’re spinning your wheels trying to work with your wife as she’s not accepting any responsibility for the problems in your marriage.


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## CanadianGuy

Could be she is fitness testing you. You're failing if you're loosing your temper http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html

Have you considered post-partum? A friend of mines wife has a pretty severe case. It got to the point where my friend would come home and say to his wife "I'd like to have some work buddies for dinner" - OMG all hell would break loose, from " I hate your friends" to " I hate you" etc. She would get very mad, angry, screaming etc. My buddy was at a loss as to what could possibly going on. Everything triggered her anger. Their MD. clued in and put her on drugs and now everything is okay. Even she says she was really suffering and "felt" crazy. It took along time for my buddy to admit what was going on to anyone. They talk about it openly now.


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## hello86

Fitness Tests sounds very familiar. It does seem to be a constant test of seeing if I am worthy or not. Probably because of abandonment issues with her father. I constantly feel that I am the only one trying, taking a step up while 1 slip up (forgetting to take the laundry from washer to dryer) will knock me down 5 steps in her mind.

What is interesting is that she is very similar to her mother & she has been married before and now is with a boyfriend for 12 years and neither want to get married. One day the boyfriend let out that the only reason their relationship works is because they aren't married and "dependent" on each other so she knows he'll just leave if she pulls any crap.


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## Ten_year_hubby

hello86 said:


> My wife on the other hand was born to a mother of 16yrs old and has a severely severed relationship with her father who left her mother just a couple years old. She states that her relationship with her dad was a typical divorced family but just 2 years ago he remarried and now has a 4yr old and another son that is the same age as ours. She has traits of a borderline personality disorder with fits of extreme rage that pick and pick with what seems like the goal of ultimately chipping away your self esteem to nothing.


Sadly, this is a lot more common than you might think. Unresolved (bad) feelings toward her father get expressed to you including her hostile desire to damage your self esteem (in retaliation). I would advise one to skip the heavy labels in favor of actual behavior descriptions. Yes, you can get through this but not without a superhuman effort on both your parts. Do you have a specific question?


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## Ten_year_hubby

hello86 said:


> I keep telling myself "something else must have triggered her anger, what was it" and then once I realize that it helps me not be so sensitive to the attack. I have started talking calmly but it seems to increase her rage because I feel that she feeds off and ultimately wants a screaming match so that she can say I'm crazy. I work hard in both aspects, analysing her & keeping my cool, and admit that sometimes I break and say something stupid that she'll hold over me for months. For example after one time of her screaming at me I said, "this is nuts I don't know if I can really handle this if it keeps up". That's what she was looking for though because now she holds it over my head that I want to leave her
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She shows a relationship killing trust issue experienced through extreme aversion to intimacy.


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## Uptown

Hello86, the two groups of people who most commonly tend to stay with BPDers for many years are codependents and (to a lesser extent) narcissists. The relationships are attractive to narcissists because, with the BPDers' habit of altering between loving and hating the spouse, the narcissist gets a "vacation" from intimacy every week or two. This is important to narcissists because, like BPDers, they have great difficulty handling true intimacy (even though they crave it).

That said, I nonetheless agree with AFEH that you are not describing yourself to have NPD traits. As AFEH surmised, you seem to be describing yourself as having codependent traits. Granted, a very small portion of narcissists are highly self aware. But you appear to be so amazingly self aware that it would be very unusual for a narcissist to have that level of understanding. Typically, narcissist are less self aware than BPDers, who are very lacking in self awareness themselves. BPDer have such a fragile and unstable sense of who they are that they meticulously maintain a false self image. But they do know it is false. 

In contrast, narcissists typically are so completely out of touch with their true selves that they actually believe the false self image is true. I therefore ask whether you have good reason to believe you have strong NPD traits? Have you been diagnosed as such?


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## hello86

Uptown said:


> Hello86, the two groups of people who most commonly tend to stay with BPDers for many years are codependents and (to a lesser extent) narcissists. The relationships are attractive to narcissists because, with the BPDers' habit of altering between loving and hating the spouse, the narcissist gets a "vacation" from intimacy every week or two. This is important to narcissists because, like BPDers, they have great difficulty handling true intimacy (even though they crave it).
> 
> That said, I nonetheless agree with AFEH that you are not describing yourself to have NPD traits. As AFEH surmised, you seem to be describing yourself as having codependent traits. Granted, a very small portion of narcissists are highly self aware. But you appear to be so amazingly self aware that it would be very unusual for a narcissist to have that level of understanding. Typically, narcissist are less self aware than BPDers, who are very lacking in self awareness themselves. BPDer have such a fragile and unstable sense of who they are that they meticulously maintain a false self image. But they do know it is false.
> 
> In contrast, narcissists typically are so completely out of touch with their true selves that they actually believe the false self image is true. I therefore ask whether you have good reason to believe you have strong NPD traits? Have you been diagnosed as such?


No, like the comment prior to yours I should have probably skipped the heavy language. I had read an interesting blog post about Narcissist & BPD relationships and thought my relationship fit the explanations to a tee. I searched to find more example but couldn't find any so I ended up here, decided to set up an account. I appreciate all the help and after reading more codependent stuff it does seem like I'm more along those lines.

As for this false self image. For the past 3 years we have lived in a small house pretty much within my parents business because of the loans, her not working while pregnant, & starting the new business. We are moving to a real house style apartment this weekend. Over the years she has been embarrassed to tell people where we live and we consistently get in arguments about having friends over because she doesn't want them to see the house. She has said before that things will change once we finally move. Could this "appearance" of living poorly be wreaking havoc on her self image issues?


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## Uptown

hello86 said:


> She has said before that things will change once we finally move. Could this "appearance" of living poorly be wreaking havoc on her self image issues?


Highly unlikely. Narcissists tend to be very concerned about appearances because it is so important to them to validate their false self image of being perfect. With BPDers, however, their self image is so fragile and unstable that the appearance of the house should be the least of their concerns. If she is a high functioning BPDer, she likely will come up with an endless series of demands (e.g., move me into a real home) that, once completed, are supposed to make her "happy." But making a BPDer happy is an impossible task. It is like trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.

Because you believe your W has strong BPD traits (e.g., the temper tantrums and verbal abuse you are witnessing), I suggest you read my description of BPD traits in Maybe's thread to see if most sound very familiar. It is largely based on my experience of living with my BPDer exW for 15 years.

Although only a professional can determine whether a person has _full blown BPD_, spotting the red flags is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about traits such as strong verbal abuse, rapid transitions from Jekyll to Hyde, temper tantrums, and inability to trust. My post is located at My list of hell!. If that description rings a bell, Hello86, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources.


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## AFEH

Yes. But 

The further he walks along that particular path the deeper he gets into codependency. In my personal experience it is far better to walk the path of the “recovering codependent”. That is to work on himself, most especially understanding why he fell in love with and married his wife. Why he is still married to her even though she abuses him. Why he puts up with her abuse and most important of all why he has such ineffective boundaries if indeed he has any at all.


“Researching” why his wife behaves as she does, what type of PD she may or may not have, learning to coexist with her etc. etc. all take the focus off of the journey he should be going on. And that journey is an inner journey, to go inside of himself so he gets to know who he is.


The OP has a great deal to discover and change about his own character. He’ll never do that while he’s externally focused on his wife’s character. All he needs to do with his wife is learn how to manage her with non codependent type boundaries. Then it is for her to “change” if indeed she wants to. If she doesn’t want to change then OP knows exactly where he stands and what his future consists of if he stays with her. He’ll discover that within a few days of asserting healthy personal boundaries.

hello86 get to know the Karpman drama triangle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. You are right there on it and playing it out on a day by day basis. Another reference is An Overview of the Drama Triangle.


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## Ten_year_hubby

hello86 said:


> Over the years she has been embarrassed to tell people where we live and we consistently get in arguments about having friends over because she doesn't want them to see the house. She has said before that things will change once we finally move. Could this "appearance" of living poorly be wreaking havoc on her self image issues?


No, her self image issues make her dissatisfied with her living situation, not vice-versa. But you are a very smart guy to ask


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## Uptown

AFEH said:


> The OP has a great deal to discover and change about his own character. He’ll never do that while he’s externally focused on his wife’s character.


I disagree. My experience is that the quickest and easiest way for a "codependent" to bring his own issues into focus is to spend a few hours learning how his wife is contributing to the toxic marriage. Then, by subtraction, he can more easily see the role he has played in contributing to that toxicity.

One reason this "backwards" approach seems to work so well is that codependents like Hello86 and me are usually convinced we are doing the right thing because, after all, we are "only trying to help" a loved one. Until we understand how deeply embedded the wife's issues are, we cannot see how pointless and counter-productive our efforts "to help" have been. Once we realize we have been foolishly expecting a wife with the emotional development of a four year old to behave like a rational adult, we very quickly see the folly of our own behavior.

The _primary_ reason for using the backwards approach, however, is that we codependents have such low personal boundaries -- and so much empathy -- that it is hard for us to figure out where our own issues stop and our wives' issues begin. It all blurs together, with the result that our happiness depends fully on her happiness. Hence, because it is FAR easier to see _another person's issues_ than one's own, I have found that this "teasing apart" process is greatly accelerated by taking time to have a basic understanding of the wife's contribution to the toxicity in the marriage. 

By "taking time," I am not suggesting weeks or months but, rather, a few hours or days. I therefore agree with you, AFEH, that it is important for Hello86 to keep the primary focus on himself -- which is why both of us have already started discussing codependency with him. Finally, please keep in mind that Hello86 said at the beginning that he wants to stay with his W if possible and thus does not want to be told to leave her. Given that objective, it is all the more important he have a basic understanding of what it is he is dealing with.


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## AFEH

Uptown said:


> I disagree. My experience is that the quickest and easiest way for a "codependent" to bring his own issues into focus is to spend a few hours learning how his wife is contributing to the toxic marriage. Then, by subtraction, he can more easily see the role he has played in contributing to that toxicity.
> 
> One reason this "backwards" approach seems to work so well is that codependents like Hello86 and me are usually convinced we are doing the right thing because, after all, we are "only trying to help" a loved one. Until we understand how deeply embedded the wife's issues are, we cannot see how pointless and counter-productive our efforts "to help" have been. Once we realize we have been foolishly expecting a wife with the emotional development of a four year old to behave like a rational adult, we very quickly see the folly of our own behavior.
> 
> The _primary_ reason for using the backwards approach, however, is that we codependents have such low personal boundaries -- and so much empathy -- *that it is hard for us to figure out where our own issues stop and our wives' issues begin*. It all blurs together, with the result that our happiness depends fully on her happiness. Hence, because it is FAR easier to see _another person's issues_ than one's own, I have found that this "teasing apart" process is greatly accelerated by taking time to have a basic understanding of the wife's contribution to the toxicity in the marriage.
> 
> By "taking time," I am not suggesting weeks or months but, rather, a few hours or days. I therefore agree with you, AFEH, that it is important for Hello86 to keep the primary focus on himself -- which is why both of us have already started discussing codependency with him. Finally, please keep in mind that Hello86 said at the beginning that he wants to stay with his W if possible and thus does not want to be told to leave her. Given that objective, it is all the more important he have a basic understanding of what it is he is dealing with.


Yes, it's why I say it is a lot about personal boundaries. For my mind he's far better off getting and implementing healthy boundaries, start to walk the path of the recovering codependent and then perhaps start to look into his wife's issues and try and help her out.


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## Uptown

AFEH said:


> For my mind he's far better off getting and implementing healthy boundaries, start to walk the path of the recovering codependent and then perhaps start to look into his wife's issues and try and help her out.


Perhaps you are right, AFEH. One thing that is certain is that there is no single path to healing and that different people usually heal the quickest by taking the path that works best for them. The beauty of this forum, then, is that members like us can share our experiences on what we found most helpful -- allowing OPs to choose whichever approach seems to work best for them at this point in time.


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## AFEH

Uptown said:


> Perhaps you are right, AFEH. One thing that is certain is that there is no single path to healing and that different people usually heal the quickest by taking the path that works best for them. The beauty of this forum, then, is that members like us can share our experiences on what we found most helpful -- allowing OPs to choose whichever approach seems to work best for them at this point in time.


Absolutely Uptown. It was my experience that people don’t change because we want them to, they change because they want to change.

So in the face of abuse, for me its something like “Hey. I don’t tolerate that behaviour. If you want to keep me around you’ll drop it”.

The onus is then on the other person to change, if they want to.

I wish I’d learnt that a long time ago. It was only after I asserted and enforced a few healthy boundaries that my wife actually became introspective and looked at her own behaviour. But by then it was way too late for me.

In that way healthy personal boundaries achieved in a few months what the Rescuer in me didn’t achieve in a couple of decades. Fear of loss can be a terrific motivator for some seriously deep and fundamental changes right in the core value system of a person.


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## WalterWhite

Hello86, I had your type of marriage before and make no mistake: there is no cure for Borderline Personality Disorder. Until you leave such a person, your life will be a hell on earth. I am so sorry for you.


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## Conrad

Hello,

As AFEH indicates, you are much more likely a codependent than a narcissist.

Your wife's childhood predisposes her to a personality disorder.

If you think you can fix it for her, you are sadly mistaken.

The only thing you can do is establish personal boundaries, which you clearly have not done.

If she is cursing at you and you are taking her crap?

Much work to do on you.

Are you in individual counseling?


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## Conrad

Trenton,

I'm surprised at that reprimand.

YES... men and women that have that sort of childhood home are angry people.

You - of all people - know this.

It's one of the reasons why you've struggled - and you don't do the OP any favors by denying it.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> OK, you added the idea that I struggle because of my childhood so I'm going to tell you flat out that I don't struggle with the messed up childhood home which was still better than many. I struggle with this idea that I still love and hold in high regard my Mom & Dad even knowing my own history.
> 
> Excuses, diagnosis...it's a slippery slope to more excuses and diagnosis. When do we work on what we actually have? The choices we make today and how they will effect tomorrow?


What if I told you that understanding where another person comes from is vital in assessing their behavior?

Would you believe me?

Because, I'll tell you flat out. There is stuff that someone with a bad childhood simply cannot see or do that you would actually expect from someone who felt loved.

Why you aren't able to process that sort of insight as a good thing is all on you.

So, you go ahead and label it as projection.

I'll know I'm trying to help the OP.

What you're trying to do? I'm not sure.


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## Trenton

Conrad said:


> What if I told you that understanding where another person comes from is vital in assessing their behavior?
> 
> Would you believe me?
> 
> Because, I'll tell you flat out. There is stuff that someone with a bad childhood simply cannot see or do that you would actually expect from someone who felt loved.
> 
> Why you aren't able to process that sort of insight as a good thing is all on you.
> 
> So, you go ahead and label it as projection.
> 
> I'll know I'm trying to help the OP.
> 
> What you're trying to do? I'm not sure.


But, even if what you say is true, when assessing the situation for someone else, if all I see is my own situation, I'm going to project rather than advise.

I know you're trying to help the OP. So am I.

He's clearly not a narcissist. Whether his wife is borderline is up in the air as she's not typing but given the information he's offered, it's impossible to say. So we're at square one. Best advice is offered on what he's given us and that is the advice I've given as OP borders more on Google over'doer than anything else, and his wife borders on losing her poo from being stressed out. If they connect they can get to the bottom of it, if they label and guesstimate, they can further disconnect.

Sorry Conrad. There's more to you than is reflected in your words, of that I'm sure, but we disagree. That's OK too.


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## Conrad

Yes, I can tell I've completely missed it:

_*My wife on the other hand was born to a mother of 16yrs old and has a severely severed relationship with her father who left her mother just a couple years old. She states that her relationship with her dad was a typical divorced family but just 2 years ago he remarried and now has a 4yr old and another son that is the same age as ours. She has traits of a borderline personality disorder with fits of extreme rage that pick and pick with what seems like the goal of ultimately chipping away your self esteem to nothing.

If anyone has issues like me and has been in this situation you realize the trouble that I am in. I feel the need to hold the power in the relationship while she actually will demoralize me to gain control. The fighting involves personal attacks and vulgar language for what seems like no apparent reason to me, and only when I am at my most insecure will she let up. Trying to regain any amount of power in the relationship will just cause more outbursts and hateful talk. I will be honest and say that I have retaliated with my own outbursts at times but over the last few months have really tried to gain control of myself and grasp the root cause of the problem. I have given up all caffeine, sugar, and sleep as regularly as possible to help limit things that will make me tire or cranky.*_

Yeah, I'm really "projecting"

Funny stuff.

She's not the slightest bit angry.


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## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Yes, I can tell I've completely missed it:
> 
> _*My wife on the other hand was born to a mother of 16yrs old and has a severely severed relationship with her father who left her mother just a couple years old. She states that her relationship with her dad was a typical divorced family but just 2 years ago he remarried and now has a 4yr old and another son that is the same age as ours. She has traits of a borderline personality disorder with fits of extreme rage that pick and pick with what seems like the goal of ultimately chipping away your self esteem to nothing.
> 
> If anyone has issues like me and has been in this situation you realize the trouble that I am in. I feel the need to hold the power in the relationship while she actually will demoralize me to gain control. The fighting involves personal attacks and vulgar language for what seems like no apparent reason to me, and only when I am at my most insecure will she let up. Trying to regain any amount of power in the relationship will just cause more outbursts and hateful talk. I will be honest and say that I have retaliated with my own outbursts at times but over the last few months have really tried to gain control of myself and grasp the root cause of the problem. I have given up all caffeine, sugar, and sleep as regularly as possible to help limit things that will make me tire or cranky.*_
> 
> Yeah, I'm really "projecting"
> 
> Funny stuff.





> We started out a loving couple, very "she is my soulmate" feelings for the both of us. We are both Drs. which has given us a nice $350,000 student loan debt. Right out of school & 2 months into our marriage my wife was let go from her job and we suddenly moved to my hometown & was pregnant leaving her not working for a year. She is very driven though, so 2 months after giving birth she had opened our very own office, which I moved in to 6 months later. In this time period we have lived in my parents house (old bedroom) and in an apartment (within my parents family business) for 3 years. We are moving into our own apartment this weekend further away from my parents.


Yeah, funny stuff, this stress followed by looking for a diagnosis for an answer, huh? Your quote follows mine in OP's history.

Symptoms of BPD:
-Fear of being abandoned

-Feelings of emptiness and boredom

-Frequent displays of inappropriate anger

-Impulsiveness with money, substance abuse, sexual relationships, binge eating, or shoplifting

-Intolerance of being alone

-Repeated crises and acts of self-injury, such as wrist cutting or overdosing

You know many doctors who are BPD? Most go from job to job, hobby to hobby, boyfriend to boyfriend....it's hard to become a doctor in-between cuttings, impulsive behaviors and feelings of self loathing.

So how do you define stress in a person?
-Moodiness
-Irritability or short temper
-Agitation, inability to relax
-Feeling overwhelmed
-Sense of loneliness and isolation
-Depression or general unhappiness

Hmmmm...

Now, I'm not saying that past experiences don't effect current circumstance. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just not willing to say that past experiences are automatically a result in a personality disorder.


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## WalterWhite

BPD is always a lost battle. Get out with your life, youth, and sanity. Nobody makes BPD work, I promise!!


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