# The Joys of Withholding Sex



## moco82

Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.

But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:

Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


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## Shiksa

and leads to divorce... good luck. Hope you have someone to talk with about your anger issues. BTW, not all women withhold. Maybe its time to figure out why you are in this state with your spouse.


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## EleGirl

Like Shiksa said, not all woman withhold sex. And... men withhold sex at about the same rate that women do.

Soooo.... I have no idea why you think its appropriate to attack all women in this manner. It's your wife you have issues with ... not all women.


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## RandomDude

Eh? Well if he's a man who has suffered being stuck in a sexless marriage I can only imagine the gratification of sweet cold revenge.

I say let him enjoy it, as long as one doesn't get carried away in it and become addicted to this power trip.


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## EleGirl

RandomDude said:


> Eh? Well if he's a man who has suffered being stuck in a sexless marriage I can only imagine the gratification of sweet cold revenge.
> 
> I say let him enjoy it, as long as one doesn't get carried away in it and become addicted to this power trip.


He can enjoy the 'power' of withholding all he wants. But he can do it without attacking women as a whole. 

This is about his wife, not all women.


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## soulseer

Withholding sex is like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexm

Normal people usually don't seek out revenge for perceived (or even real) slights from the people they supposedly love.

There should be no gratification in hurting one's partner, ever. That's twisted.

“Revenge proves its own executioner.” - John Ford

“Grudges are for those who insist that they are owed something; forgiveness, however, is for those who are substantial enough to move on.” - Criss Jami


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## okeydokie

Withholding sex leads to the other partner eventually not wanting sex from the with holder anymore. Whether done for spite or done because as a withholder you just don't have any sex drive, the result is usually the same, divorce


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## oldgeezer

moco82 said:


> Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.
> 
> But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:
> 
> Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


Your anger inside is chewing you up like the monsters in the "Aliens" movies. Either get rid of it before it tears you apart as a person, or it will do just that.


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## PHTlump

EleGirl said:


> Like Shiksa said, not all woman withhold sex.


For the record, the OP didn't claim that all women withheld sex. He wrote that many do.


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## Faithful Wife

Where has any women on TAM said she enjoyed withholding sex? Has this ever been said?


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## moco82

Faithful Wife said:


> Where has any women on TAM said she enjoyed withholding sex? Has this ever been said?


You expect it to be self-reported? That's the equivalent of relying on a study of average penis size that's based solely on self-reported estimates.


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## MEM2020

Ele,
Totally agree. Since this board consists of a self selected sample, problematic spouses of both genders are over represented. 

Most men and women understand that chronic rejection is toxic. 

I can't see feeling good about rejecting my W when she has consistently made an effort not to reject me. Actually I wouldn't do it, because it would feel bad. 



EleGirl said:


> He can enjoy the 'power' of withholding all he wants. But he can do it without attacking women as a whole.
> 
> This is about his wife, not all women.


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## thompkevin

Yeah, you know the unhealthy thing she used to do, why don't you start doing it as well. That will improve your relationship.


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## oldgeezer

Faithful Wife said:


> Where has any women on TAM said she enjoyed withholding sex? Has this ever been said?


Many, MANY threads which discuss withholding sex to get what they want, or using it as leverage to gain some control over the guy. Ok, maybe they don't "discuss" it, but the action gets described. 

He said "enjoy", but I seriously doubt he's "enjoying" it. He's finding some fleeting satisfaction in being vengeful.


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## SimplyAmorous

moco82 said:


> Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.
> But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:
> Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


I am very happy /thankful my husband did NOT take this attitude with me -when my sex drive *superseded* his...to a pretty high degree... though I can't say I was ever a with-holder, never had a headache , we never had a fight over sex and I rarely told him NO...but there was some "waits" during the years trying to conceive...just a little more complicated....and he realizes he was at fault too, in our past. He is much more patient than I am...

I would not at all have handled "withholding" well..if he did this, it would have had the power to destruct our marriage.. and this is saying a lot -coming from me. It was something I needed when I needed it.. Thankfully he cared and would never do that to me...he doesn't play games like that...and neither do I.


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## moco82

oldgeezer said:


> He's finding some fleeting satisfaction in being vengeful.


Exactly. I've felt it for the first time last night and felt like I had to share. The older I get, the more I discover emotions and satisfactions that I didn't comprehend when described by other people. Revenge was one of them--in the past I never sought revenge for anything, except restitution for material financial losses. Never understood people holding grudges, especially if the transgression was due to simple forgetfulness. But now that this part of my brain has been activated, it was like experiencing alcoholic intoxication for the first time. I get it now. However, I want the relationship to be semi-functional until our child is a bit older, so perhaps I need to measure out this new source of satisfaction slowly and carefully. But, damn, it's sweet.


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## chillymorn

sound more like the saddness of with holding sex.

but hey what ever floats your boat. I guess.

maybe she will say this sux and find a person on the side. or leave you all together. just because you accepted it for years doesn't mean she will.

then you really will have the last laugh.


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## Catherine602

You're becoming someone you don't like. No good for you. What if you divorce? You're left with the reminants of anger and resentment to take to your next relationship. Don't engage in revenge , not for the benefit of your wife but for yourself. I know how you feel, I have the tendency to vengefulness. I work against it for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moco82

Catherine602 said:


> I know how you feel, I have the tendency to vengefulness. I work against it for me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Revenge is a normal human desire, so it may ultimately be healthy that I discovered it. Luckily my long-term plan doesn't involve any more relationships.


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## DesertRat1978

If the wife was to miraculously start having the desire for sex in any way shape or form, I do not know that I would care enough to withhold. I would probably turn her down but not to be vengeful but rather because her indifference having infected me.


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## Faithful Wife

old geezer said: *"Many, MANY threads which discuss withholding sex to get what they want, or using it as leverage to gain some control over the guy. Ok, maybe they don't "discuss" it, but the action gets described."*

How is it that I have never seen even one thread like this?

Can you link me to one, since there are so many?

Or are you talking about threads by MEN who are telling us their wives behave this way?


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## moco82

Faithful Wife said:


> Or are you talking about threads by MEN who are telling us their wives behave this way?


Pretty sure he was referring to posts by men.


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## Faithful Wife

So men write threads about how they perceive things in their marriages, and they perceive that their woman is being deliberately withholding, that she is controlling the relationship with sex on purpose, and that she is cruel and enjoys this "power" trip.

But no women write threads saying that they do this.

Right?


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## DesertRat1978

While it may not be malicious, a lot of wives/women know that they hold the reins in the bedroom. They may not do it out of vengeance or malice but they fully acknowledge that are in control of the sexual aspect of it.


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## moco82

Faithful Wife said:


> So men write threads about how they perceive things in their marriages, and they perceive that their woman is being deliberately withholding, that she is controlling the relationship with sex on purpose, and that she is cruel and enjoys this "power" trip.
> 
> But no women write threads saying that they do this.
> 
> Right?


Right. What would compel a woman for whom everything is going according to her wishes to go on a forum for troubled marriages and confess? Just like you don't see any men in the sex section gasping about how wonderful their sex life has always been.


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## MaritimeGuy

I hope the day never comes that I'm happy about having less sex.


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## DesertRat1978

moco82 said:


> Right. What would compel a woman for whom everything is going according to her wishes to go on a forum for troubled marriages and confess? Just like you don't see any men in the sex section gasping about how wonderful their sex life has always been.


:iagree:

I would never have came on here had my sex life not dried up and dissipated.


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## Faithful Wife

moco: *"What would compel a woman for whom everything is going according to her wishes to go on a forum for troubled marriages and confess?"*


I have literally never heard any woman say this ever, not here or any other place. I'm not saying it doesn't happen....but if no woman is ever saying she does this...then really, how much do you think it happens (that she ENJOYS being cruel)? Do you not think there could be a misunderstanding on the part of the husband...at least in SOME cases?

In all of my relationships, I have had a higher drive. From my point of view, men withhold sex from me.


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## SimplyAmorous

tyler1978 said:


> While it may not be malicious,* a lot of wives/women know that they hold the reins in the bedroom. They may not do it out of vengeance or malice but they fully acknowledge that are in control of the sexual aspect of it.*


I have a friend like this...she knows her husband wants more sex -she outright doesn't care, she just says "*she doesn't feel like it*" and expects him to deal with it...

I told her on the phone one day, if I was married to her, I'd leave her...he deserves better..... she still talks to me....amazingly.


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## Deejo

Faithful Wife said:


> So men write threads about how they perceive things in their marriages, and they perceive that their woman is being deliberately withholding, that she is controlling the relationship with sex on purpose, and that she is cruel and enjoys this "power" trip.
> 
> But no women write threads saying that they do this.
> 
> Right?


You _TRULY_ believe that isn't quite often the dynamic? Really?

Most women when asked why they withhold will simply say, "I don't know."

I have no problem citing my marriage as an example of what was laid out. She wasn't trying to be nefarious, but it simply became 'what she knew'. Shut him down at all costs. And she later conceded that it was one of the few ways she could influence the relationship. Healthy and reasonable? Of course not. Do I think for a New York minute that my circumstance was uncommon. Absolutely not.

I see it here. I see it in most of my friends relationships. Could both partners be doing a better job? More than likely, but that does not change the paradigm that very, very, tragically often ... women do become gate-keepers. And that role by proxy imparts power.

Being able to see that paradigm for what it is, and get the hell out of it, or avoid it altogether is important for purposes of salvaging a relationship, or knowing it's time to get the hell out.

But let's please not pretend this isn't a downright pedestrian and common dynamic ... because it is.

I don't care about blame, fault, or responsibility, or who could be doing what differently and better.

The withholding of sex, and being comfortable with, if not content about the withholding is commonplace.

And as pointed out by another poster, the OP never said 'All women'.

A woman did ... and then another woman backed her up.

See? This is how these misunderstandings flourish. Always glad to help fix them.

Oh ... and this isn't all directed at you Faithful, just used your statement as a launching pad for my brilliant observations.


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## MEM2020

SA,
The situation from earlier in your marriage is an excellent example of a genuine miscommunication between two sincere, kind and loving people. Totally different than punitive/sadistic rejection. 

BTW: While physiologically frustrating for your H, he knew you loved him.






SimplyAmorous said:


> I am very happy /thankful my husband did NOT take this attitude with me -when my sex drive *superseded* his...to a pretty high degree... though I can't say I was ever a with-holder, never had a headache , we never had a fight over sex and I rarely told him NO...but there was some "waits" during the years trying to conceive...just a little more complicated....and he realizes he was at fault too, in our past. He is much more patient than I am...
> 
> I would not at all have handled "withholding" well..if he did this, it would have had the power to destruct our marriage.. and this is saying a lot -coming from me. It was something I needed when I needed it.. Thankfully he cared and would never do that to me...he doesn't play games like that...and neither do I.


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## Faithful Wife

Hmmm....seems that I have been surrounded by highly sexual people, men and women, my whole life. My female friends have never said things like this.

When female friends were having crappy sex, they would tell me they just didn't want the crappy sex so they turned it down. Usually it ends in divorce. But they never talked about using sex as a weapon, they just said they just couldn't do it because it sucked so much. They actually highly desired sex, but not if it wasn't going to be good sex.

Mostly these females were not able to be honest with their husbands about these issues.

Which in itself, is cruel, IMO...but it was done out of ignorance.

But what always hitches me up on this topic is that I have known many women with husbands/boyfriends with lower drives, who deliberately withhold (due to their own various issues), and who seem to feel taken advantage of if they "give up" sex.

So since I know many women who have had to endure this type of sexual rejection.....it just doesn't seem like some one-gender-sided thing to me.

MANY people of both genders have BIG intimacy issues...and that is really the problem, IMO.


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## moco82

Faithful Wife said:


> then really, how much do you think it happens (that she ENJOYS being cruel)?


Some may enjoy being cruel; others probably rationalize it (e.g. he needs to be conditioned, like doggy training).


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## DesertRat1978

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have a friend like this...she knows her husband wants more sex -she outright doesn't care, she just says "*she doesn't feel like it*" and expects him to deal with it...
> 
> I told her on the phone one day, if I was married to her, I'd leave her...he deserves better..... she still talks to me....amazingly.


In a strange sort of way, sex is really a way to someone's core. It is when someone is at their most vulnerable. They are totally exposed. To have someone want to open themselves and the other to not care less is pretty damaging. It makes me think that if the relationship is at the point where one or more is withholding, the issues probably go way beyond sex.


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## Cosmos

I really wouldn't know. The only "withholding" done in my marriage was by my ex-H. I certainly don't think he enjoyed doing it, though - it was simply the way he's made. If I thought he'd been enjoying hurting me, I'd say he was one sick bast*rd - but I don't believe that was the case...


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## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> The situation from earlier in your marriage is an excellent example of a genuine miscommunication between two sincere, kind and loving people. Totally different than punitive/sadistic rejection.
> 
> BTW: *While physiologically frustrating for your H, he knew you loved him*.


The truth is ...he questioned that a little bit...although he knew I was faithful & true... never wanting anyone else......yet his #1 love language being Physical touch....he did feel he loved me *more* (for years)....since he greatly ties *TOUCH* with *"feeling loved"*...... but No, never that I didn't love him...it helped I LOVED being touched too...Unfortunately just didn't need it THERE as often as* he* wanted touched THERE. 

His restraint in this astounds me looking back...

For example...Near every night, we'd watch Lifetime movies on the couch... he'd scratch my back, fingers through my hair, up & down my arms...Oh I was in Heaven, ate that up....getting my cup filled!....

And in my lack of understanding the male sex drive.. (for all I knew he was just like me).... yet wanting to please him, I'd ask...can I scratch his back....not every time but now & then....he would always say "No" ...

Now truly, this was a prime & perfect opportunity for him to say ..."No Honey but you can scratch me here!"....and lead my hand there...never did that once, not a time I can recall.. sometimes kids were in the room, maybe this why....but still... ... Heck I would have been JUMPING to say that, even demanded it ! Shheessssh 

What to do with him.... I don't know. Still love him though! 

 MEM !


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## greenfern

I agree with cosmos. I don't think in most cases women are being manipulative in withholding. I have friends that, I guess "withhold" (they know their husbands want more sex but they don't want to have sex for whatever reasons). Its more that they are tired, feel unattractive/are unattracted to their h, etc. They definitely are not 'gleeful' about it.


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## Catherine602

moco82 said:


> Revenge is a normal human desire, so it may ultimately be healthy that I discovered it. Luckily my long-term plan doesn't involve any more relationships.


Yes, you will have another relationship. It's a normal human desire, even more so than than revenge. After you get out of this toxic situation, your mind will clear and this experience will improve your woman-picker.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faithful Wife

Here's a thread in the general discussion area that is the type of story that happens all the time, yet men (who are in sexless situations) tend to write this off as if it doesn't matter...the guy must be gay.

But seriously....it happens to women too, all the time!

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/128370-our-sex-life-sucks.html


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## DesertRat1978

SimplyAmorous said:


> The truth is ...he questioned that a little bit...although he knew I was faithful & true... never wanting anyone else......yet his #1 love language being Physical touch....he did feel he loved me *more* (for years)....since he greatly ties *TOUCH* with *"feeling loved"*...... but No, never that I didn't love him...it helped I LOVED being touched too...Unfortunately just didn't need it THERE as often as* he* wanted touched THERE.
> 
> His restraint in this astounds me looking back...
> 
> For example...Near every night, we'd watch Lifetime movies on the couch... he'd scratch my back, fingers through my hair, up & down my arms...Oh I was in Heaven, ate that up....getting my cup filled!....
> 
> And in my lack of understanding the male sex drive.. (for all I knew he was just like me).... yet wanting to please him, I'd ask...can I scratch his back....not every time but now & then....he would always say "No" ...
> 
> Now truly, this was a prime & perfect opportunity for him to say ..."No Honey but you can scratch me here!"....and lead my hand there...never did that once, not a time I can recall.. sometimes kids were in the room, maybe this why....but still... ... Heck I would have been JUMPING to say that, even demanded it ! Shheessssh
> 
> What to do with him.... I don't know. Still love him though!
> 
> MEM !


I read your posts and it gives me hope. I can get pretty cynical and nasty when I think about my marriage. Reading your posts makes me think that even if this marriage fails, I can move to greener pastures (so to speak).


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## samyeagar

tyler1978 said:


> I read your posts and it gives me hope. I can get pretty cynical and nasty when I think about my marriage. Reading your posts makes me think that even if this marriage fails, I can move to greener pastures (so to speak).


That SA is a pretty smart and very special lady isn't she? 

Her story has given me hope many many times, and you know what, let me give you some right now Tyler. I was in a horrible marriage. Got out of it, and have been with a woman who truly fills my needs, wants, and desires beyond what I ever imagined possible. At a point when I could have been very jaded against life in general, and women in particular, my STBW showed me why loving another is good, and worth the risk. My cup runneth over.


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## ocotillo

moco82 said:


> Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.
> 
> But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:
> 
> Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


Even if much of this is (I hope) hyperbole, I do know how you feel. It is *not *healthy. You need to let it go.


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## DesertRat1978

samyeagar said:


> That SA is a pretty smart and very special lady isn't she?
> 
> Her story has given me hope many many times, and you know what, let me give you some right now Tyler. I was in a horrible marriage. Got out of it, and have been with a woman who truly fills my needs, wants, and desires beyond what I ever imagined possible. At a point when I could have been very jaded against life in general, and women in particular, my STBW showed me why loving another is good, and worth the risk. My cup runneth over.


I am happy that it worked out for you. I will take what you say to heart. I have some issues to sort out but moving on is sounding better and better.


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## ReformedHubby

What joy is there in withholding sex? You're actually punishing yourself. Sex is fun!!! My wife can be furious with me and we are still intimate. In her words why should she punish herself because I've done something stupid. I get the silent treatment instead which for me is tortuous.

I just can't imagine any man with a normal sex drive being happy about abstaining from sex. I don't know your history though.


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## ReformedHubby

Faithful Wife said:


> Here's a thread in the general discussion area that is the type of story that happens all the time, yet men (who are in sexless situations) tend to write this off as if it doesn't matter...the guy must be gay.
> 
> But seriously....it happens to women too, all the time!
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/128370-our-sex-life-sucks.html


You are right it does happen to women all the time. Even worse most women feel obligated to protect their husbands from embarrassment, so they often suffer in silence. 

One of my wife's good friends divorced her husband and she never really gave a reason. People in our inner circle started giving her the cold shoulder. She finally admitted that they hadn't had sex in years and she'd tried everything. She was covering for him the whole time because she knew it would embarrass him, and also that a lot of people wouldn't believe her.


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## Jung_admirer

Faithful Wife said:


> When female friends were having crappy sex, they would tell me they just didn't want the crappy sex so they turned it down. Usually it ends in divorce. But they never talked about using sex as a weapon, they just said they just couldn't do it because it sucked so much. They actually highly desired sex, but not if it wasn't going to be good sex.


This is _quid pro quo_. My needs are not being met, so I have no reason to meet your needs. One partner voiced their intimacy needs while the other partner would/could not. Business may be based on _quid pro quo_; fortunately, love is not.



Faithful Wife said:


> Which in itself, is cruel, IMO...but it was done out of ignorance.


Ignorance? Are you saying that a partner didn't hear the other asking for sex? Are you saying the refusing partner did not know their needs were not being met? That they did not know they could/should voice their needs?


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## Faithful Wife

Jung...what I meant was that the women I have known who didn't enjoy sex with their husbands because according to them, the sex sucked....these women did not educate themselves enough to realize that with some sex therapy...reading...communcation, etc...that things might have actually improved.

They were ignorant that there was any chance at all. They believed that their husbands would not be able to change no matter what they said or tried...so they said or tried nothing, because all they could say (or so they thought) was "you suck in bed, that's why I don't want sex".

They didn't know they could have/should have said "we need sex therapy" and then discussed all the issues with a professional and it might have actually improved. They "didn't want to hurt his feelings" by being honest....which is just ignorance in itself, to believe that being dishonest is better because "it won't hurt".


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## Jung_admirer

Faithful Wife said:


> They didn't know they could have/should have said "we need sex therapy" and then discussed all the issues with a professional and it might have actually improved. They "didn't want to hurt his feelings" by being honest....which is just ignorance in itself, to believe that being dishonest is better because "it won't hurt".


Respectfully ... What you describe is fear, not ignorance. And I agree fear can stop the world in its tracks. Kindest Regards-


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## Faithful Wife

What do you believe these women were afraid of? Of hurting his feelings? I think they would have done even that, if they actually thought things could change. But many women just don't understand that a man's sexual talents can improve...that part is ignorance.


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## Jung_admirer

Faithful Wife said:


> What do you believe these women were afraid of? Of hurting his feelings? I think they would have done even that, if they actually thought things could change. But many women just don't understand that a man's sexual talents can improve...that part is ignorance.


I can think of several reasons from my perspective, but that's not important here. Generally fear boils down to hopelessness, worthlessness and abandonment. 

Back to your question: 'What do you believe these women were afraid of? ' You said you thought they didn't say anything because they thought it wouldn't change anything. When you express a need you are demonstrating vulnerability, and you must trust before you will express vulnerability. Asking for great sex means considering the possibility that your partner may not meet this need. Now I ask you, how would these women feel knowing that they risked expressing a need only to be turned down? I would say these women fear feeling worthless. They fear they are not worth the effort the partner would have to make to give them great sex. It is much safer to deny this need and blame your partner for their inadequacy. This is fear and it is the most common thread of humanity.


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## Faithful Wife

Jung: "I would say these women fear feeling worthless."

Yeah, no.

Not these particular female friends. They know they are worthy of great sex, had had it before those relationships I'm referring to in this post, and got it again after with other partners.


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## Cosmos

ReformedHubby said:


> You are right it does happen to women all the time. Even worse most women feel obligated to protect their husbands from embarrassment, so they often suffer in silence.
> 
> One of my wife's good friends divorced her husband and she never really gave a reason. People in our inner circle started giving her the cold shoulder. She finally admitted that they hadn't had sex in years and she'd tried everything. She was covering for him the whole time because she knew it would embarrass him, and also that a lot of people wouldn't believe her.


:iagree:

Yes, I divorced but told very few people why. I wasn't protecting my ex, though. It was because the shame for me was too great...


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## c2500

In my situation, the XW only wanted to have sex Saturday morning...period. I grew very resentful and dreaded Saturdays. I even started to withold. I ultimately caught her in an affair with a guy 22 years older than her...that she claimed was impotent...she 47...he 69...and he was a serial cheater. Once caught though, out were Saturdays....she and I were like when we first were together...all the time...then reality sank in (5-6 months)....she went back to her old ways, and I learned I had been played....just as my lawyer said she was doing. On the bright side, I now have a younger GF, the sex is incredible, and the XW apparently is dating another older guy who comes over late and leaves early from the old house (Ironically, most of her neigbors think she is a ***** and are friends of mine) while I am building a new, much nicer home. (She bought me out of the house, paying me some $50K over market and now can't even sell it...justice strikes again)

So in hindsight, I am glad to be past living with a lying *****...and I saw ***** cause the old guy was helping her financially for a bit...and a ***** is someone who is paid for sex.

Don't want to seem bitter, I just like to call things like they are.


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## treyvion

c2500 said:


> In my situation, the XW only wanted to have sex Saturday morning...period. I grew very resentful and dreaded Saturdays. I even started to withold. I ultimately caught her in an affair with a guy 22 years older than her...that she claimed was impotent...she 47...he 69...and he was a serial cheater. Once caught though, out were Saturdays....she and I were like when we first were together...all the time...then reality sank in (5-6 months)....she went back to her old ways, and I learned I had been played....just as my lawyer said she was doing. On the bright side, I now have a younger GF, the sex is incredible, and the XW apparently is dating another older guy who comes over late and leaves early from the old house (Ironically, most of her neigbors think she is a ***** and are friends of mine) while I am building a new, much nicer home. (She bought me out of the house, paying me some $50K over market and now can't even sell it...justice strikes again)
> 
> So in hindsight, I am glad to be past living with a lying *****...and I saw ***** cause the old guy was helping her financially for a bit...and a ***** is someone who is paid for sex.
> 
> Don't want to seem bitter, I just like to call things like they are.


I'm glad you made it out of the old situation OK. And you have a better life as a result.


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## 6301

I only saw this happen once and was so glad to see it. I had a neighbor who was a really nice guy. Didn't drink, use drugs, never went out bar hoping, basically a guy that enjoyed being with his wife. The only problem was she often used sex as a weapon was a some what of a control freak since she always blurted out about how you have to train your husband. She would say some unkind things to her husband in mixed company then laugh it off saying that it was just a joke but if you knew her, a lot of it wasn't.

One day at a BBQ party I had there were all our neighbors and relatives there and she wanted him to get her something out of the car and he was working the grill and told her that after he was finished he would get it and she looked at him from about twenty fee away and told him that if he didn't get what she wanted then she said "You want to play like that then you get none of this" as she was pointing to her body from the boobs on down and turned and slapped herself on the butt and she's standing there with the other ladies and they had a good chuckle over it.

Now the guy is about 6'2" 190, good looking guy and like I said real easy going but I think he took all he was going to take. He put the spatula down looked her in the eye and said to her, "Woman! I know I'm not a bad looking guy, maybe not a movie star but I could hold my own. I know what I look like when I look in the mirror when I get out of the shower and when I look below my waist I know what I have and most men would envy me for it and if you think for one minuet that your the only woman with all of that then your crazy. You want to withhold all of that then I promise you that I can go out and get all that on the first try and don't you ever forget it!". Then he bust out laughing and his wife turned fifty shades of red and almost cried. When he went in the house one woman came up to him and high fived him and told him to let his wife burn for a while. The look on his wife's face was priceless and so many people were glad she got shot down in front of everyone. Me too. That day he finally grew a pair.


----------



## Catherine602

Jung_admirer said:


> This is _quid pro quo_. My needs are not being met, so I have no reason to meet your needs. One partner voiced their intimacy needs while the other partner would/could not. Business may be based on _quid pro quo_; fortunately, love is not.
> 
> Ignorance? Are you saying that a partner didn't hear the other asking for sex? Are you saying the refusing partner did not know their needs were not being met? That they did not know they could/should voice their needs?


Love is quid pro quo. Any adult relationship is an exchange of satisfactions. Children and helpless adults are different all together. It's not selfish to want as much as you give. The exchange replenishes the desire to give and the ability to continue to love. 

That's why sexual denial is so debilitating. It sucks the life out of the partner being denied. The posts from sex starved spouses show this again and again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ntamph

moco82 said:


> Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.
> 
> But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:
> 
> Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


Even I realize that this is self-destructive behavior, lol.

"Communication is everything" is such a big cliche because it's true. You need to talk with her. And you can't generalize her and your own "revenge" to all women.


----------



## Cosmos

Catherine602 said:


> Love is quid pro quo. Any adult relationship is an exchange of satisfactions. Children and helpless adults are different all together. It's not selfish to want as much as you give. The exchange replenishes the desire to give and the ability to continue to love. That's why sexual denial is so debilitating. It drains the life out of the partner being denied. The posts from sex starved spouses shows that again and again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

If my SO wasn't intimate with me, no matter whatever else he did for me (bringing me flowers, telling me he loved me etc) I just wouldn't feel loved.


----------



## Holland

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Yes, I divorced but told very few people why. I wasn't protecting my ex, though. It was because the shame for me was too great...


Same here Cosmos. Coming to TAM has helped to rid myself of that shame though. In my case however it was also to protect my ex that I did not tell the whole truth of why I divorced him, I still care about him and find any sort of revenge or intent to hurt another person to be abhorrent. There are a few people (my close family, best friends and my partner) that I have told the truth to but everyone else thinks we split just because we fell out of love.

Revenge is futile and self destructive, an utter waste of your life.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Faithful Wife said:


> Not these particular female friends. They know they are worthy of great sex, had had it before those relationships I'm referring to in this post, and got it again after with other partners.


If that were the case, I would think they would have no problem saying so to their partners (?). Why not if not for fear?


----------



## Jung_admirer

Catherine602 said:


> Love is quid pro quo. Any adult relationship is an exchange of satisfactions. Children and helpless adults are different all together. It's not selfish to want as much as you give. The exchange replenishes the desire to give and the ability to continue to love.
> 
> That's why sexual denial is so debilitating. It sucks the life out of the partner being denied. The posts from sex starved spouses show this again and again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree: relationship is quid pro quo ... Love is not.
There are conditions upon which I accept a relationship, whereas my love for my partner is unconditional. This is more than a semantic difference.


----------



## moco82

Jung_admirer said:


> I agree: relationship is quid pro quo ... Love is not.


Amen. I knew all along I wasn't getting my quo, but until the love wore off I considered it my duty to dish out the quid.


----------



## Catherine602

Jung_admirer said:


> I agree: relationship is quid pro quo ... Love is not.


Why do you say that , I don't understand. 

If a relationship is QPQ then I really don't understand how a happy romantic love relationship can exist without each person meeting the needs of the other somewhat equally. Isn't that the point of the OP post? 

It is saintly to expect nothing in return for being committed, monogamous, take on financial obligations and incurring the lifetime responsibility of children. It is childish to expect someone to give just because you need. 

But so few people are saintly. Even saints expect rewards, albeit not in the here and now but in the celestial realm. 

How can it be otherwise? It's too hard to do without any perks. From what I've read on this forum, most relationships can be distilled down to a somewhat cynical "what's in it for me".


----------



## MEM2020

I have read a number of threads from 'lower desire' wives whose spouses were remarkably resistant to feedback. 

In business and private life I have noticed that people tend to feel comfortable telling even painful truths when:
- They recognize your sincere desire to make things better for them and
- You respond in a healthy manner to honest feedback and consistently use it to improve the situation 






Jung_admirer said:


> I agree: relationship is quid pro quo ... Love is not.
> There are conditions upon which I accept a relationship, whereas my love for my partner is unconditional. This is more than a semantic difference.


----------



## Catherine602

Jung_admirer said:


> I agree: relationship is quid pro quo ... Love is not.
> There are conditions upon which I accept a relationship, whereas my love for my partner is unconditional. This is more than a semantic difference.


I didn't see this before I posted. I can see what you are saying. I think. 

My love for my husband is unconditional. I just love him and that's it. My commitment to stay in the relationship is predicated on the degree to which we both protect and care for our children, are faithful, respectful and meet each other's needs. 

People have to be willing to leave if their boundaries are crossed. Doesn't mean they stop loving but they stop being in a relationship that is not working.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Jung said: "If that were the case, I would think they would have no problem saying so to their partners (?). Why not if not for fear?"

I have already stated the reason several times. They did not believe their husbands/partners could improve their skills. So saying "hey I know what good lovers do and you ain't one of them" didn't seem to them would be constructive in anyway.

If you have it in your mind that a man cannot improve sexually, then why would you mention it to him, if there is nothing he can do about it?

That's why I'm calling it ignorance....because people can improve their skills, and these women didn't understand that. These women thought that no matter what they said, their lover would still suck in bed.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Faithful Wife said:


> Jung said: "If that were the case, I would think they would have no problem saying so to their partners (?). Why not if not for fear?"
> 
> I have already stated the reason several times. They did not believe their husbands/partners could improve their skills. So saying "hey I know what good lovers do and you ain't one of them" didn't seem to them would be constructive in anyway.
> 
> If you have it in your mind that a man cannot improve sexually, then why would you mention it to him, if there is nothing he can do about it?
> 
> That's why I'm calling it ignorance....because people can improve their skills, and these women didn't understand that. These women thought that no matter what they said, their lover would still suck in bed.


And I am asking to delve a level deeper. Why did they believe their partner could not (or more likely ... would not) improve their skills? Your friends may not be able to articulate an answer, but I assure you there is one. 

I am not quite certain how to explain ... humans are deeper than the conscious level pronouncements like, "I know I deserve good sex". There are internal subconscious understandings that form the basis for all conscious decisions. Ignoring them is like driving with your foot on the gas, and your eyes closed.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Jung I don't know what else to tell you. I am talking about women I've known for many years and have talked all through every type of life circumstance, including our deepest fears. These women did not fear they were not worthy of good sex. They simply thought their lovers were crappy in bed and that it could not/would not improve.

You can speculate to your heart's desire. I don't see what the purpose of that is. It really isn't that hard to understand. When women are young, they simply don't know how a man gets to be a good lover, so in her mind (sometimes, with some women, not all) he only has a certain skill level he can reach and it can't go higher. Since this isn't true, I'm calling that ignorance.

You can call it what you want.

But I can assure you, I'm talking about assertively sexual women who have no fear that they don't deserve or can't get good sex.


----------



## TeaLeaves4

oldgeezer said:


> Many, MANY threads which discuss withholding sex to get what they want, or using it as leverage to gain some control over the guy. Ok, maybe they don't "discuss" it, but the action gets described.
> 
> He said "enjoy", but I seriously doubt he's "enjoying" it. He's finding some fleeting satisfaction in being vengeful.


Yeah, it gets "described" by their male partners who may not know the real reasons. Or don't want to face them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

FW,
Do you have any sense as to why these women married bad lovers?

And is it accurate to say the men lacked 'skills', or was it more a lack of desire based on appearance and behavior outside the bedroom? A lack of chemistry. 


QUOTE=Faithful Wife;4808538]Jung I don't know what else to tell you. I am talking about women I've known for many years and have talked all through every type of life circumstance, including our deepest fears. These women did not fear they were not worthy of good sex. They simply thought their lovers were crappy in bed and that it could not/would not improve.

You can speculate to your heart's desire. I don't see what the purpose of that is. It really isn't that hard to understand. When women are young, they simply don't know how a man gets to be a good lover, so in her mind (sometimes, with some women, not all) he only has a certain skill level he can reach and it can't go higher. Since this isn't true, I'm calling that ignorance.

You can call it what you want.

But I can assure you, I'm talking about assertively sexual women who have no fear that they don't deserve or can't get good sex.[/QUOTE]


----------



## 2ntnuf

Jung_admirer said:


> I agree: relationship is quid pro quo ... Love is not.
> There are conditions upon which I accept a relationship, whereas my love for my partner is unconditional. This is more than a semantic difference.


This is the best explanation I have seen on this site about conditional and unconditional love. Thank you.


----------



## ocotillo

Jung_admirer said:


> I agree: relationship is quid pro quo ... Love is not.
> There are conditions upon which I accept a relationship, whereas my love for my partner is unconditional. This is more than a semantic difference.


There was a lively debate on another forum over the concept of unconditional love with questions like, "Would you still love your partner if you discovered that they had been trying to poison you for quite some time?" being posed.

I like the way you articulated that.


----------



## jay1365

I firmly believe most witholding is a control issue that is so ingrained in a persons personality they are not aware of it and think it is normal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think it's a combination of many things. I withheld sex. I am not proud of it. 

Parts of it were true at different times and some were true nearly all the time. Other combinations can happen. I think there is a bit of taking control of the only area of your life that you can feel like you have control in a marriage. Rape changes that thought.

-physical health
-mental health
-emotional health
-boundaries
-upbringing by persons in authority in our youth and as adults
-life experiences
-attraction
-respect
-love

There can be so many things, I just don't believe this is a complete list.


----------



## beachbabe

Why is she withholding? Women need to feel secure, loved, appreciated, etc...in order to enjoy sex or even want it. 
If we got all that...watch out; cause here we CUM! (I couldn't help myself...


----------



## Deejo

beachbabe said:


> Why is she withholding? Women need to feel secure, loved, appreciated, etc...in order to enjoy sex or even want it.
> If we got all that...watch out; cause here we CUM! (I couldn't help myself...


You left out the part about the energy of the universe being attuned and killing a chicken.


----------



## Racer

Deejo said:


> You left out the part about the energy of the universe being attuned and killing a chicken.


Oh, and in my wife's case, also having everything on vast "to do" list checked off like immaculate house, every whim including polite and respectful children, her looking and feeling perfect, etc. Basically, the fantasy of a perfect life in every way imaginable. Only then can she 'relax' and enjoy life. 

Until that day, we are failing in some way.... terribly unsexy, unattractive and a turn-off.


----------



## RoseAglow

Deejo said:


> You left out the part about the energy of the universe being attuned and killing a chicken.


As a HD wife of a LD husband, I HATE to find out that the chicken has been choked before I can get to it, so to speak.....dmn that chicken!!!!


----------



## Deejo

*Re: Re: The Joys of Withholding Sex*



RoseAglow said:


> As a HD wife of a LD husband, I HATE to find out that the chicken has been choked before I can get to it, so to speak.....dmn that chicken!!!!


Well played, madame.


----------



## RoseAglow

Deejo said:


> Well played, madame.


Hah, gotta get a little play somewhere!!! 

OK, the bad jokes will end for now. May the chickens thrive and the Universe be at One for all this evening....


----------



## Jung_admirer

Faithful Wife said:


> Jung I don't know what else to tell you. I am talking about women I've known for many years and have talked all through every type of life circumstance, including our deepest fears. These women did not fear they were not worthy of good sex. They simply thought their lovers were crappy in bed and that it could not/would not improve.
> 
> You can speculate to your heart's desire. I don't see what the purpose of that is. It really isn't that hard to understand. When women are young, they simply don't know how a man gets to be a good lover, so in her mind (sometimes, with some women, not all) he only has a certain skill level he can reach and it can't go higher. Since this isn't true, I'm calling that ignorance.
> 
> You can call it what you want.
> 
> But I can assure you, I'm talking about assertively sexual women who have no fear that they don't deserve or can't get good sex.


Yet not assertive enough to share their feelings with their DHs. I simply asked you .... why? 

I can see we don't communicate well, so I'll leave you with the last word with your response.


----------



## Faithful Wife

No worries, Jung. It is just several stories...several women...too much to tell, too much threadjack.


----------



## StarTrekFan

moco82 said:


> Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.
> 
> But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:
> 
> Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


I get it...I was in a similar situation last year. I don't think my drive went down, but my wife's drive definitely went up over the last year or two.There were a couple of times, I said no. I have to be honest, It felt good to be able to dictate terms. For the first time in 10 years tables were reversed.

But then, over the last year , I realized something had happened and sex for me was just not that big of a priority any more. It got to a point that I just don't think about sex as much as I used to. As a result I just stopped initiating as well. Now a days, I could go month or two without sex and it would not bother me at all.

What happened over the last two years, is that I have put a lot more focus on my kids school work, one of the kids have a bit of minor health issue that I need to watch out for and care for. Professionally I got to a point, where the next 2 years are crucial to me and I am much more focused on advancing at work. On top of that I am taking some classes that keep me busy as well.

So now what I realized is that , my wife was NOT being mean & manipulative, when she rejected, delayed or refused to take initiative. It's just that sex was just not a big priority for her, because of all the other things in her head. I totally get it now from her point of view. I can compartmentalize different aspects of my life and yet sex is not that big of a priority for me, So I can imagine how difficult it is for her to initiate.


----------



## Jung_admirer

StarTrekFan said:


> So now what I realized is that , my wife was NOT being mean & manipulative, when she rejected, delayed or refused to take initiative. It's just that sex was just not a big priority for her, because of all the other things in her head. I totally get it now from her point of view. I can compartmentalize different aspects of my life and yet sex is not that big of a priority for me, So I can imagine how difficult it is for her to initiate.


You are in a position of power, as is always the case for the LD partner. Your partner was formerly in this position and she "rejected, delayed or refused". She chose to deprioritize your needs over her own. Now the tables are turned and you would revisit this behavior on her?

Selfish behavior is selfish behavior. There are at least three ways to view this: 

1) You reap what you sow, turn about is fair play, give them a taste of their own medicine etc.
2) I felt awful while I was on the receiving end, I would never do this to my partner as I expect they would also feel awful.
3) I'll be true to myself, forgive my partner, discuss my needs and ask my partner to do the same.

other options folks?

Choose Wisely.


----------



## Racer

Jung_admirer said:


> There are at least three ways to view this:
> 
> 1) You reap what you sow, turn about is fair play, give them a taste of their own medicine etc.
> 2) I felt awful while I was on the receiving end, I would never do this to my partner as I expect they would also feel awful.
> 3) I'll be true to myself, forgive my partner, discuss my needs and ask my partner to do the same.
> 
> other options folks?.


I’m a sick monkey and accept all three at once.
1) I feel a bit of vengeance returning in kind and knowing the heartbreak she probably feels and all those emotions she’d go through; Been there, done that. That’s how it was for me.

2) I accept that it’s ok to feel vindicated every now and again. I also accept that I am me, and that is how I reacted to this being done to me. But something I’ve learned; My wife is not me and I’m no mindreader. How she is reacting internally is anyone’s guess. Unless she tells me, I don’t make any assumptions. Therefore my “1)” is more of a fantasy of me thinking she’s bothered by it. She might actually be ok with it.

3) I am true to myself. It’s ok to have resentment, anger, frustration, etc. Totally normal emotions particularly on tender bits of your ego. The only thing I truly watch out for is the passive/aggressive. I don’t do this sort of stuff to “get back” at her... Why? Because I accept my “2)” as true that I might want vengeance and her to suffer too. How she reacts internally is not mine to control. I can influence it, however by being true to myself there’s no attempt to manipulate how I might fantasize about her feeling about stuff.

So, I reject my wife sometimes. It’s not done out of some petty vengeance for sins of her past. I might feel a bit of that after and daydream on it like some sick monkey, but it did not influence why I would or wouldn’t. She might get upset or she might not. She controls that and I’m happy to talk to her to clarify where I’m coming from so she isn’t ‘mind reading’ me. I’m ok with that.

I recognize my hurt. So it’s fine for me to fantasize that my action may have extracted some measured flesh for my pain. But I don’t make choices to intentionally hurt her to get those feelings. There’s where the difference lies.


----------



## WyshIknew

I can't imagine withholding sex.

Even if I've gone to bed cross with her and I'm determined I'm not gonna give her any, just the feel of that hand sliding across gets me going every time.

Besides it's a great way to 'make up'.


----------



## okeydokie

I now have a genuine issue with attraction to my wife. Part of it was born out of lack of intimacy, then me realizing that "we" were way down her list of priorities as she would have to complete mundane basically delay able tasks before she would be able to fit us in. I don't get a sense of revenge in ignoring intimacy, I feel like its more of a relief for both of us. I have turned her down twice recently, I find it more sadly ironic than anything else.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Star Trek...thank you for the awesome post.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Each situation is unique. Someone who is not getting it when they want and how much them want from the one they love is going to want to blame as much as they can on the spouse. It's part truth and part justification. It's really tough to look at the truth when you are stuck in the middle of an unsatisfying and unhappy marriage. Like infidelity, a lack of sex from a partner who professed their love to you and committed their life to you is best prevented with communication, understanding, empathy and compromise. If you are paying attention and doing the proper things to keep your marriage alive, I don't think sex would be an issue in most cases. I suppose there are some where the spouse denying sex is mentally ill or really trying to control their spouse. There was nothing I could do to control my spouse, for the most part. She was strong and could move at will. 

Actually, she was a bit too arrogant and didn't really try to fix anything, just find proof that she wasn't the problem. Many who do that, need to clear their conscience. It's understandable because of what I know now about her infidelity. People who have gut feelings have been told to trust them. This was way before I got here. I trusted that there was something wrong. Enough that it helped to affect my sex life. Couple that with my own personal issues and you can keep going on and on. Stop trying to point fingers. If you aren't happy and can't find out what it is you are doing to contribute to your own problem and she or he will not talk, you owe it to them and you to go to counseling and tell them in front of the counselor your marriage will be over unless there is real progress. If you do not leave the marriage and find sexual happiness, you are using your spouse. That's as abusive as withholding sex. It's like the chicken or the egg. I guess the person with the paying job, is the one who is right? Think about it.


----------



## testr72

People that withhold sex from their partners should not be married.

The stress ,agony , and low self esteem as a result in a long term relationship is just cruel punishment. 

Thats what a loving relationship should not be about.

If there is a medical issue then it has to be addressed,other excuses are just unacceptable. 
A person thats withholding intimacy has to resolve their issues, and try to accommodate their partner somewhere in the middle at best

By denying intimacy and the closeness that comes with it you're basically denying your partner one of the most wonderful aspects of life


----------



## Leelan

moco82 said:


> Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.
> 
> But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:
> 
> Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


Please tell me why you do this. Has your wife hurt you? If not does she know your doing this on purpose, or do you just pretend not to be interested. Maybe I can get some insight from your behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Deejo,
Loved your post. 

Recently I have read MANY posts from HD spouses who describe their LD partner engaging in a pattern of 'flirting and forgetting', or worse 'flirting and rejecting'. 

The 'high water mark' for self serving and ludicrous gender bias on this thread was a claim by one poster that her married female 'sexual refuser' friends were married to men who 'sucked in bed'. These friends were described as:
- Strong sexually confident people 
- But refused sex a lot because their husbands sucked in bed

If we are talking about sexual cruelty, how much crueler can you get than marrying a guy who 'you think sucks in bed', choosing 'not bothering to tell him because - he is hopeless', using his lack of skills as the basis for refusing him more and more frequently and ultimately divorcing him. 

Of course 'sucks in bed' is a clever attempt to Blameshift. Most often 'sucks in bed' really means: It sucks getting in bed with him, because I am not attracted to him. 

But that requires 'taking responsibility' for marrying someone you weren't that attracted to. 




Deejo said:


> You _TRULY_ believe that isn't quite often the dynamic? Really?
> 
> Most women when asked why they withhold will simply say, "I don't know."
> 
> I have no problem citing my marriage as an example of what was laid out. She wasn't trying to be nefarious, but it simply became 'what she knew'. Shut him down at all costs. And she later conceded that it was one of the few ways she could influence the relationship. Healthy and reasonable? Of course not. Do I think for a New York minute that my circumstance was uncommon. Absolutely not.
> 
> I see it here. I see it in most of my friends relationships. Could both partners be doing a better job? More than likely, but that does not change the paradigm that very, very, tragically often ... women do become gate-keepers. And that role by proxy imparts power.
> 
> Being able to see that paradigm for what it is, and get the hell out of it, or avoid it altogether is important for purposes of salvaging a relationship, or knowing it's time to get the hell out.
> 
> But let's please not pretend this isn't a downright pedestrian and common dynamic ... because it is.
> 
> I don't care about blame, fault, or responsibility, or who could be doing what differently and better.
> 
> The withholding of sex, and being comfortable with, if not content about the withholding is commonplace.
> 
> And as pointed out by another poster, the OP never said 'All women'.
> 
> A woman did ... and then another woman backed her up.
> 
> See? This is how these misunderstandings flourish. Always glad to help fix them.
> 
> Oh ... and this isn't all directed at you Faithful, just used your statement as a launching pad for my brilliant observations.





Deejo said:


> You _TRULY_ believe that isn't quite often the dynamic? Really?
> 
> Most women when asked why they withhold will simply say, "I don't know."
> 
> I have no problem citing my marriage as an example of what was laid out. She wasn't trying to be nefarious, but it simply became 'what she knew'. Shut him down at all costs. And she later conceded that it was one of the few ways she could influence the relationship. Healthy and reasonable? Of course not. Do I think for a New York minute that my circumstance was uncommon. Absolutely not.
> 
> I see it here. I see it in most of my friends relationships. Could both partners be doing a better job? More than likely, but that does not change the paradigm that very, very, tragically often ... women do become gate-keepers. And that role by proxy imparts power.
> 
> Being able to see that paradigm for what it is, and get the hell out of it, or avoid it altogether is important for purposes of salvaging a relationship, or knowing it's time to get the hell out.
> 
> But let's please not pretend this isn't a downright pedestrian and common dynamic ... because it is.
> 
> I don't care about blame, fault, or responsibility, or who could be doing what differently and better.
> 
> The withholding of sex, and being comfortable with, if not content about the withholding is commonplace.
> 
> And as pointed out by another poster, the OP never said 'All women'.
> 
> A woman did ... and then another woman backed her up.
> 
> See? This is how these misunderstandings flourish. Always glad to help fix them.
> 
> Oh ... and this isn't all directed at you Faithful, just used your statement as a launching pad for my brilliant observations.


----------



## treyvion

MEM11363 said:


> Deejo,
> Loved your post.
> 
> Recently I have read MANY posts from HD spouses who describe their LD partner engaging in a pattern of 'flirting and forgetting', or worse 'flirting and rejecting'.
> 
> The 'high water mark' for self serving and ludicrous gender bias on this thread was a claim by one poster that her married female 'sexual refuser' friends were married to men who 'sucked in bed'. These friends were described as:
> - Strong sexually confident people
> - But refused sex a lot because their husbands sucked in bed


The "sucks in bed" debacle could be a control mechanism, control through rejection and control of the desired entity.

The control would over time lower the confidence of the rejected and bring attention to the rejector who will gain feelings of empowerment at the expece of the rejected.



MEM11363 said:


> If we are talking about sexual cruelty, how much crueler can you get than marrying a guy who 'you think sucks in bed', choosing 'not bothering to tell him because - he is hopeless', using his lack of skills as the basis for refusing him more and more frequently and ultimately divorcing him.


Why did you marry him if he "sucks in bed", did he never tend to your needs? Or you just don't like him in the romantic aspect?



MEM11363 said:


> Of course 'sucks in bed' is a clever attempt to Blameshift. Most often 'sucks in bed' really means: It sucks getting in bed with him, because I am not attracted to him.


The blameshift is "I don't want to work with him", and putting the blame on him. Not too many men in this country could thwart this type of attack unless he had a large throng of sexual conquests and had a larger outer reputation for being "good in bed". If the male has been low key about his sex or not had a large partner count or sexual reputation, the attack is indefensible.



MEM11363 said:


> But that requires 'taking responsibility' for marrying someone you weren't that attracted to.


----------



## MEM2020

People can only treat us as badly as we let them.





testr72 said:


> People that withhold sex from their partners should not be married.
> 
> The stress ,agony , and low self esteem as a result in a long term relationship is just cruel punishment.
> 
> Thats what a loving relationship should not be about.
> 
> If there is a medical issue then it has to be addressed,other excuses are just unacceptable.
> A person thats withholding intimacy has to resolve their issues, and try to accommodate their partner somewhere in the middle at best
> 
> By denying intimacy and the closeness that comes with it you're basically denying your partner one of the most wonderful aspects of life


----------



## Jung_admirer

Leelan said:


> Please tell me why you do this. Has your wife hurt you? If not does she know your doing this on purpose, or do you just pretend not to be interested.


Why is revenge so sweet?
Brain Study Shows Why Revenge Is Sweet

My take on this: Revenge or vengeance manifests itself when an individual crosses a boundary and fails to empathize with the emotion of the boundary owner. It is a dysfunctional appeasement of anger, shame or humiliation, but it's also a last resort to try to force a recognition of your humanity. 

Ex. I am a person and your actions hurt me. If you can't see this, I can force you to recognize my pain by inflicting its equivalent (or worse) upon you.


----------



## Jung_admirer

treyvion said:


> The blameshift is "I don't want to work with him", and putting the blame on him. Not too many men in this country could thwart this type of attack unless he had a large throng of sexual conquests and had a larger outer reputation for being "good in bed". If the male has been low key about his sex or not had a large partner count or sexual reputation, the attack is indefensible.


Indefensible? Why defend?
My partner: You really suck in bed. I don't want this.
Me: Yep, sucks to be me. Now show me how you like it.
My partner: "I don't want to work with you". You'll never change.
Me: OK, I have to respect your decision. Let me know when you are ready to work with me on a problem we share.


----------



## Ellie5

If my H stops making the effort in our marriage (in a general sense), I simply don't feel close to him and therefore don't want sex - if there is no emotional connection from a lack of trying, or he's indifferent to my feelings, it hardly puts me in the mood to be physically close. 

I'm not using withdrawal of sex as punishment or power, it basically boils down to a lack of connection on other levels. And it makes me terribly sad.


----------



## MEM2020

Trey,
Both men and women sometimes marry people they have 'marginal sexual desire' for. 

If the physical part of the relationship deteriorates badly they typically step up the deception both inside and outside the marriage. 

They often 'manage the external optics' in a stunningly self serving manner. I have seen it played both ways:

Open acknowledgement they are forcing sexlessness on their partner. This is uber toxic as it is a power play and sometimes also a message of availability. The power play part is obvious: I run this marriage so completely that I don't even have to put out. 

The subtext of availability comes from making it so clear they aren't into and don't respect their partner. 



QUOTE=treyvion;4827322]The "sucks in bed" debacle could be a control mechanism, control through rejection and control of the desired entity.

The control would over time lower the confidence of the rejected and bring attention to the rejector who will gain feelings of empowerment at the expece of the rejected.



Why did you marry him if he "sucks in bed", did he never tend to your needs? Or you just don't like him in the romantic aspect?



The blameshift is "I don't want to work with him", and putting the blame on him. Not too many men in this country could thwart this type of attack unless he had a large throng of sexual conquests and had a larger outer reputation for being "good in bed". If the male has been low key about his sex or not had a large partner count or sexual reputation, the attack is indefensible.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Conrad

Faithful Wife said:


> Where has any women on TAM said she enjoyed withholding sex? Has this ever been said?


Does it need to be?


----------



## treyvion

Jung_admirer said:


> Indefensible? Why defend?
> My partner: You really suck in bed. I don't want this.
> Me: Yep, sucks to be me. Now show me how you like it.
> My partner: "I don't want to work with you". You'll never change.
> Me: OK, I have to respect your decision. Let me know when you are ready to work with me on a problem we share.


Actually I have a piggish desire in torturing you and down playing you to get your ego to drop. Nothing wrong with you but if you listen to me your weak minded and stupid. This how they think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thebes

As a woman if someone makes you feel bad about the way you look or that your not enough for them withholding sex isn't the punishment for it, its the results of it.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Thanks, FF. Yes, you get it.

The women I am talking about....and yes it was more than one woman....were young when I was young, ie: pre-internet.

Can you imagine what it was like back then trying to get good information like "how to tell your man he sucks in bed"? There was no where to turn, no one knew what to tell these women.

They DID try to talk to him...but when it gets literally "giggled off" when it is brought up...you aren't very motivated to try that much harder.

There were no books for this. You could try going to the library or buying books...you would have ended up spending hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours buying and reading enough books to get enough info to go on, compared to a free few hours of research now to find the same answers. 

Counseling was available, but it wasn't nothing like it is now. It wasn't main stream, lots of people didn't have insurance coverage, etc. (I was lucky and actually did get some insurance coverage for counseling...but that was not the norm among my friends).

And the common wisdom among some of us gals...not that this was actually wisdom, it was just us shooting in the dark...was that if a man sucked in bed, this was a problem that you, as a woman, could never help him with (if the preliminary conversations yielded no changes).

Not all of the women I am talking about were married...so several of them did leave the relationship rather than marry him.

The ones who were married did try to talk it out but were met with either stonewalling, blank stares, deer in headlights...or literally giggles.

I think a lot of you guys just assume that sex is always good? I promise you, if the man sucks as a lover, it is not good for her.

I had said in my earlier posts that these women were ignorant that changes could occur, and that is true. Changes likely could have occured with enough help, enough encouragement, some counseling, some books, possibly sex therapy, etc. But this was the stone ages...we just didn't know. We really didn't. It wasn't like it is now.

And before anyone says it...yes, of course women sometimes suck in bed, too.


----------



## MEM2020

ROTFL 


QUOTE=Conrad;4830794]Does it need to be?[/QUOTE]


----------



## WyshIknew

What is 'sucks in bed'?



 I put sucks on bed first.:rofl:


----------



## WyshIknew

FrenchFry said:


> :lol:
> 
> I think it's something that probably very individual to each person and while I can clearly communicate what "sucks in bed" to me, it probably sounds perfectly fine to another person.
> 
> What I wasn't down with is that my husband wasn't listening to me anymore and that suuuuucked.


So basically not being attentive and appreciative of your partners needs.

At least if you acknowledge that some part of your love making is not satisfying to your partner you can work together to improve.


----------



## moco82

Leelan said:


> Please tell me why you do this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jung summed it up quite well above.


----------



## Leelan

Jung_admirer said:


> Why is revenge so sweet?
> Brain Study Shows Why Revenge Is Sweet
> 
> My take on this: Revenge or vengeance manifests itself when an individual crosses a boundary and fails to empathize with the emotion of the boundary owner. It is a dysfunctional appeasement of anger, shame or humiliation, but it's also a last resort to try to force a recognition of your humanity.
> 
> Ex. I am a person and your actions hurt me. If you can't see this, I can force you to recognize my pain by inflicting its equivalent (or worse) upon you.


Okay, if your partner has hurt you, why not tell them. Point out whatever the issue is and tell them that they hurt you. If this silent retaliation continues nothing will be achieved. I mean when is enough, enough. This stuff hurts, and it's damaging. I am sorry if I sound naïve, but we are in a relationships with the person we will hopefully spend the rest of our lives with. This person is the one we should be able to trust when we can trust no other. Yes we sometimes do things to each other and are honestly oblivious that our actions have harmed someone we love. But there is a big difference between being oblivious and intentional. If someone steps on our foot we scream ouch, and make them acknowledge that they stepped on our foot and hurt us. We don't keep quiet and at the next opportunity run over them and break their foot with a cement mixer.


----------



## Leelan

moco82 said:


> Jung summed it up quite well above.


Okay, but when do you stop. When do you say enough I can see that my partner is broken, devastated, miserable, lonely and will think better of hurting me in the future. When do you stop ?


----------



## 2ntnuf

WyshIknew said:


> What is 'sucks in bed'?
> 
> 
> 
> I put sucks on bed first.:rofl:



Just in case someone didn't answer this, to me, on bed and in bed are different in that one is on top of and the other under or between the covers/sheets/blankets.

So, on the bed mean I haven't pulled blankets or sheets down to climb in between them. I am lying on top of all of the sheets and blankets on the bed. 

If I'm in the bed, I mean I have pulled the blankets and sheets back and climbed on the bed and pulled the blankets and sheets up over me. Now I am "in the bed".

Hope that helped, if I read it right. If not, sorry, no offense intended.


----------



## Runs like Dog

I think many of you confuse withholding with outright hatred. Withholding implies a kind power-mad teasing in order to use sex as a weapon. Which is pretty mean but it's not as if American women aren't reared from an early age to at least consider that a valid strategy and behavior. Selfish? Of course that's all it is. 

Outright hatred is something different. Someone who radiates dislike and anger and prickliness who literally lashes out when you touch them isn't withholding - they have zero intention of it ever going that far. In my life my blushing bride said more than once, in these exact words "I don't have to do anything I'm the girl. This is you jay oh bee."

I mean that's a real "Leave the gun, take the canoli" moment, no?


----------



## moco82

Leelan said:


> Okay, but when do you stop. When do you say enough I can see that my partner is broken, devastated, miserable, lonely and will think better of hurting me in the future. When do you stop ?


Excellent question. No ready answer.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Leelan said:


> Okay, but when do you stop. When do you say enough I can see that my partner is broken, devastated, miserable, lonely and will think better of hurting me in the future. When do you stop ?


There's nothing to be gained by taking personally the attacks you suffer from psychopaths. They certainly aren't personalizing it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Runs like Dog said:


> Withholding implies a kind power-mad teasing in order to use sex as a weapon. Which is pretty mean but it's not as if American women aren't reared from an early age to at least consider that a valid strategy and behavior. Selfish? Of course that's all it is.


Oh yeah I remember at the age of 9 my mother helping with my math homework and a tutorial of sex withholding for good measure. Give me a break, Runs.

People are manipulative, not just women. BTW, the OP who you are responding to says he never found his wife attractive, married her anyways making her believe he was and now withholds sex, taking great pleasure in it. So yeah it's not just women who manipulate.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Oh yeah I remember at the age of 9 my mother helping with my math homework and a tutorial of sex withholding for good measure. Give me a break, Runs.
> 
> People are manipulative, not just women. BTW, the OP who you are responding to says he never found his wife attractive, married her anyways making her believe he was and now withholds sex, taking great pleasure in it. So yeah it's not just women who manipulate.



Well that's true enough but the Cinderella Complex I think is a real thing. Moreover I don't think of it manipulative in the sense that the objective or goal is something else something mercenary. I think it's different from that - a kind of 'I'm a princess peering down on the mere mortals' worldview.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Runs like Dog said:


> Well that's true enough but the Cinderella Complex I think is a real thing. Moreover I don't think of it manipulative in the sense that the objective or goal is something else something mercenary. I think it's different from that - a kind of 'I'm a princess peering down on the mere mortals' worldview.


For every Cinderella there is a Prince Charming. A man with a need to "rescue" a broken woman so he can be viewed in high esteem by others. There's plenty of peering down by both genders.


----------



## moco82

I love how precise the math in this thread is.


----------



## Jamison

I really don't know why people withhold. Whether its physical, sexual, or emotional unavailability etc. I imagine most people have have withheld something at some point in their lives and didn't realize it. However, if I had to take a stab at why some people might withhold, especially on a ongoing basis, my guess is something has changed within that person. Perhaps some kind of core damage has been done, since most people don't just wake up and decide to be cold and withhold just because. Who knows, JMO.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> When female friends were having crappy sex, they would tell me they just didn't want the crappy sex so they turned it down. Usually it ends in divorce. But they never talked about using sex as a weapon, they just said they just couldn't do it because it sucked so much. They actually highly desired sex, but not if it wasn't going to be good sex.


This comment just seems meant to insult men. So these women chose to marry these men in spite of bad sex? Or did sex change for the worse and these women didn't say anything?

IMO, good sex doesn't happen with everyone... and regularly bad sex is a pretty big indicator that there's something missing and you shouldn't marry them if it's important to you. These women withholding supposedly because their hubby is bad in bed - either by choosing someone bad in bed or by not speaking up as quality declined, made their own bed no? I don't know about other guys, but I tend to get better in bed as I go along... because I learn about her preferences.

On another note, when I was married, there were times when my ex raved about the sex we had the prior night, and there were other times I could tell she was just hum drum about it... and yet I wasn't really good one day and really bad another by any objective measure. The difference on those occasions was all in her head imo. Her attitude going in. This, at least as much as anything else, dictates whether a woman is going to really enjoy sex or not. It doesn't matter what he does if you just refuse to get into it. Strangely, when I did push past the surface withholding excuses and we had sex, my ex was always happy and glowing afterwards. Yet she continued her way of c*ckblocking me at every subsequent opportunity. 

I find your attempt to pass fault for this to men in general by way of your girlfriend's reports - implying that a woman withholding is responding to having bad sex, insulting. Let's be frank, there are a myriad women who just aren't very eager to have sex period. In MC my ex claimed she was just absent minded about it... and didn't think about sex much. She would go about her daily things, keep busy and just naturally brush off my sexual intentions. In other respects she felt less sexual as a "mom" than she had before becoming one. And finally, she said she felt less attractive and "withholding/blocking" was a way to make me prove I wanted her badly enough to keep pressing.

The withholding partner is always the one at fault imo. If they're not enjoying sex, then they need to speak up or gtfo... not withhold and torture. If things don't improve, well, time to move on if its important to you. My view on it is colored by my own experience. If my ex thought I was bad in bed, I'd have been happier if she left me instead of making me squirm around trying to figure it out and decode her disinterest. I *felt* bad in bed. One of the biggest things I struggled with in therapy was disarming those vile feelings and the sense of mal-redemption I had from learning via affairs that "No, its definitely not ME."

If I ever get married again, and that's a big IF... I'm going to make it known that as far as I'm concerned withholding is just as bad as cheating. I will not be in that position again. Just as no one is justified to cheat, no one is justified to withhold.


----------



## MEM2020

French Fry,
I remember you posting about this. And recall feeling bad for you that he was being so blatantly selfish. 

You had a capable, desirable lover who was being lazy and selfish and I thought your posts were a good contribution because they show what is sometimes happening on the other side of the table. 

Any reasonable person reading what you wrote back then was thinking: Damn right you are rejecting him, he is being lazy and selfish. He deserved what he is getting. 

And clearly some of the 'sexually rejected', really 'don't want to accept' their contribution. There was one poster who bitterly complained about sexual and other issues while neglecting to mention the 100 pounds they had added after marrying. 




UOTE=FrenchFry;4831258]FW didn't really go into detail on her friend's situation, but I totally withheld sex from my husband because he started to suck in bed. Started to, key words. Wouldn't have married him if he was terrible or unteachable in the first place.

I hinted at it at first. Then I tried to all the nice ego-assuaging directing-type things that people get told to do while in bed. Then I took the reigns for a little bit and just tried to get my own orgasm which was worse than just using vibrator for sure. Then I flat out had several discussions with him about how unhappy I was. At first he made a couple half attempts to "do better," then he would just get mad and huffy when I tried to tell him what I needed.

By that time I was really not into having weak sauce sex with my husband, so I started just saying "no." Use whatever verb you want to describe it, but I don't like sad weak sex and I'd rather shut my drive off than beg and plead and play nice to the one person who should give a damn about our sex life.

My attraction went down when he was being a hissy baby about being a lazy ass in bed. I think if he had a different personality or a lower drive, I could have gone on saying no until he showed a bit more initiative. I think this was like a three/four month period when this was going on. I can't imagine trying to spend that much longer to get my husband *BACK* to where we were for no other reason than he wanted to just lay back and have me do all the work.

Probably would have been even worse if he went all revenge style instead of sacking up and listening to what I was saying. So, I don't think FW's situation is that far out there...is all I'm saying.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Vanguard

EleGirl said:


> Like Shiksa said, not all woman withhold sex. And... men withhold sex at about the same rate that women do.
> 
> Soooo.... I have no idea why you think its appropriate to attack all women in this manner. It's your wife you have issues with ... not all women.


I vehemently reject this notion. I never, ever withhold sex. From ANYone. 

All are welcome!


----------



## MEM2020

Runs,
When are you departing your hostile, angry and machine gun complaining wife? 




Runs like Dog said:


> I think many of you confuse withholding with outright hatred. Withholding implies a kind power-mad teasing in order to use sex as a weapon. Which is pretty mean but it's not as if American women aren't reared from an early age to at least consider that a valid strategy and behavior. Selfish? Of course that's all it is.
> 
> Outright hatred is something different. Someone who radiates dislike and anger and prickliness who literally lashes out when you touch them isn't withholding - they have zero intention of it ever going that far. In my life my blushing bride said more than once, in these exact words "I don't have to do anything I'm the girl. This is you jay oh bee."
> 
> I mean that's a real "Leave the gun, take the canoli" moment, no?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> This comment just seems meant to insult men. So these women chose to marry these men in spite of bad sex? Or did sex change for the worse and these women didn't say anything?
> 
> IMO, good sex doesn't happen with everyone... and regularly bad sex is a pretty big indicator that there's something missing and you shouldn't marry them if it's important to you. These women withholding supposedly because their hubby is bad in bed - either by choosing someone bad in bed or by not speaking up as quality declined, made their own bed no? I don't know about other guys, but I tend to get better in bed as I go along... because I learn about her preferences.
> 
> On another note, when I was married, there were times when my ex raved about the sex we had the prior night, and there were other times I could tell she was just hum drum about it... and yet I wasn't really good one day and really bad another by any objective measure. The difference on those occasions was all in her head imo. Her attitude going in. This, at least as much as anything else, dictates whether a woman is going to really enjoy sex or not. It doesn't matter what he does if you just refuse to get into it. Strangely, when I did push past the surface withholding excuses and we had sex, my ex was always happy and glowing afterwards. Yet she continued her way of c*ckblocking me at every subsequent opportunity.
> 
> I find your attempt to pass fault for this to men in general by way of your girlfriend's reports - implying that a woman withholding is responding to having bad sex, insulting. Let's be frank, there are a myriad women who just aren't very eager to have sex period. In MC my ex claimed she was just absent minded about it... and didn't think about sex much. She would go about her daily things, keep busy and just naturally brush off my sexual intentions. In other respects she felt less sexual as a "mom" than she had before becoming one. And finally, she said she felt less attractive and "withholding/blocking" was a way to make me prove I wanted her badly enough to keep pressing.
> 
> The withholding partner is always the one at fault imo. If they're not enjoying sex, then they need to speak up or gtfo... not withhold and torture. If things don't improve, well, time to move on if its important to you. My view on it is colored by my own experience. If my ex thought I was bad in bed, I'd have been happier if she left me instead of making me squirm around trying to figure it out and decode her disinterest. I *felt* bad in bed. One of the biggest things I struggled with in therapy was disarming those vile feelings and the sense of mal-redemption I had from learning via affairs that "No, its definitely not ME."
> 
> If I ever get married again, and that's a big IF... I'm going to make it known that as far as I'm concerned withholding is just as bad as cheating. I will not be in that position again. Just as no one is justified to cheat, no one is justified to withhold.


I have no idea why you are taking this so personally. She was talking about her friends and what THEY said, not about your ex-wife and what SHE said.


----------



## Faithful Wife

People can be good lovers to one person and crappy lovers to another. It just is what it is. Just because my female friends were telling me that their experience with these guys was sucko, I didn't necessarily assume that my friends were perfect/great/awesome lovers 100% of the time either. I "heard" their experiences and believed their perceptions of what happened...but I always knew/understood that it was possible that my friends also sucked in bed. 

My point of making that post at all was that...of all my female friends, the ONLY ONES who EVER said they were turning down sex were the ones who also said he sucked in bed. I never heard them saying "I get a rush out of the power I yield BWAH HA HA!!!"

That was my point. If women so gleefully withhold sex as this thread suggests...wouldn't one of my female friends over all of my life time have alluded to it, at least once? Never happened once.

And again...those women did try to tell him that the sex was crappy, but it fell on deaf ears, no improvements were made...and they did then leave him. I'm just reporting what happened, but it is pretty telling that even hearing the hint that one man somewhere might be sucky in bed can strike fear into other men...."oh no...are they talking about me??"


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I have no idea why you are taking this so personally. She was talking about her friends and what THEY said, not about your ex-wife and what SHE said.


I said so in the post. Its a sensitive issue for me after years of figuring my wife's lack of drive must have had something to do my performance in bed. ie - if I was better, she'd want it more. Not remotely the case.

But specifically, because FW's post as I read it, looks to be a counter attack to the post claiming women use sex as a weapon or power play by blaming men's sexual performance for their wives' withholding. In light of my experience, yes, I take that personally. There are a myriad reasons people withhold sex, none of them are good imo, and I won't pretend to understand any of them.

Regardless, there is no legitimate reason to withhold. If sex is important to you, you're dissatisfied with it and your partner can't/won't improve... divorce. The same advice given to the victims of withholding who are considering cheating.



Faithful_Wife said:


> it is pretty telling that even hearing the hint that one man somewhere might be sucky in bed can strike fear into other men...."oh no...are they talking about me??"


You weren't pointing out one man. You were making a generalization to counter a generalization - ie all I've ever heard of is women withholding due to bad sex. But then, that was really the point of your reply right? Don't like what the guy says about women, so hit men back. Looks like a tit for tat insult to me.

Thank you for being so dismissive of something I went through for 7 years. Today I know for a fact you're not talking about me being bad in bed, but implying that women only withhold because of bad sex is outright false and insulting to men who have been on that end. You show further insulting intent in this comment. "Pretty telling" of what FW? Pretty telling of your intent to insult and agitate.


----------



## Deejo

I make no distinction between withholding sex and infidelity. Two sides of the same coin.
One side simply gets all of the bad press and finger pointing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Or it really could be NOTHING ABOUT YOU, Dvls. I could have been actually talking about me and my own experiences with my friends...and maybe I even had a point...that wasn't about you.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Or it really could be NOTHING ABOUT YOU, Dvls. I could have been actually talking about me and my own experiences with my friends...and maybe I even had a point...that wasn't about you.


I wasn't saying it was about me. As I said, you were generalizing... and I am in fact a man who has been withheld on - the subject of your generalization.

Specific to me is your comment that its "pretty telling". That's not an insult?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yes Dvls...it is pretty telling because it showcases just how sensitive men are about this topic...which then shows up when a woman is actually trying to talk to a man about it. It is very difficult to have these talks because a man has so much tied up in his head about this stuff. Yet we women are ALWAYS the problem, according to most of what you are saying. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't, seems to me...and there is never any allowance for performance issues being ACTUAL problems that exist.

Again...my comments were not about you...but your reaction to what I said is common, ie: immediately taking it personally and going inward.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I make no distinction between withholding sex and infidelity.


That's sad.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes Dvls...it is pretty telling because it showcases just how sensitive men are about this topic...which then shows up when a woman is actually trying to talk to a man about it. It is very difficult to have these talks because a man has so much tied up in his head about this stuff. Yet we women are ALWAYS the problem, according to most of what you are saying. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't, seems to me...and there is never any allowance for performance issues being ACTUAL problems that exist.
> 
> Again...my comments were not about you...but your reaction to what I said is common, ie: immediately taking it personally and going inward.


I dealt with those feelings for 7 years because of a withholding woman. I shouldn't be sensitive to nor reject a false claim that applies to my life?

There ARE plenty of men who are bad in bed. A woman should leave him, not withhold from him. I'm in your generalized group of men whose wives withheld... so damn right I'm going to take it personally. I took withholding to be exactly as you describe it... "well damn... I must not be good in bed." As it turned out, her lack of drive had nothing to do with me. So I flatly reject your claim that bad sex is the root. You're just attacking men because a man attacked women. Tit for tat.

I didn't say women are to blame for everything. I said the withholder is always wrong. It is you who are trying to place impetus on men alone. If actual performance issues exist and can't be worked out: leave, its that simple; find someone better. Judging by the number of men out there complaining about withholding wives who by your account must just be bad in bed, I guess these women will have a hard time.


----------



## sparkyjim

Just me thinking out loud...

I see these kind of threads and I wonder where are the threads about men withholding romance...?

Personally I think that is just as big of an issue, and maybe part of the problem too.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Dvls said: "It is you who are trying to place impetus on men alone."

Nope. I brought up one scenario, the ONLY scenario in which I have heard women saying they are turning down sex, and that is why I made the point...I don't ever hear women wanting to turn down sex for any other reason AND they weren't happy about turning it down they WANTED good sex. And then I discussed that scenario in a few different posts...and in case you didn't read it the 5 times I already said it, these relationships DID end in divorce. 

So what exactly is your problem here? That I don't care enough about what you personally went through? Why should I? As if you care a whit about me? Sheesh. This (my posts on this topic) is NOT ABOUT YOU...but I can't help that you read it that way.


----------



## Fozzy

Jung_admirer said:


> Why is revenge so sweet?
> Brain Study Shows Why Revenge Is Sweet
> 
> My take on this: Revenge or vengeance manifests itself when an individual crosses a boundary and fails to empathize with the emotion of the boundary owner. It is a dysfunctional appeasement of anger, shame or humiliation, *but it's also a last resort to try to force a recognition of your humanity*.
> 
> Ex. I am a person and your actions hurt me. If you can't see this, I can force you to recognize my pain by inflicting its equivalent (or worse) upon you.


I'm ashamed to admit that I've fantasized about the day coming where i have an oppportunity to "return the favor". Not because I want to cause pain to my wife--I truly don't. But in some twisted way I'm hoping it will force her to acknowledge what I've been going through for years now. Telling her about it so far doesn't really seem to have had any impact on her. Not proud of it, and hopefully things get fixed so I never have to make that choice.


----------



## jay1365

Therealbrighteyes said:


> That's sad.


Sad but true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

jay1365 said:


> Sad but true.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No it's not. One has far more reaching consequences.....VD, pregnancy by another, love triangles, life threatening disease like HIV or HPV, firing from a job if a co-worker, hatred of a child towards a parent and in some cases murder.


----------



## sinnister

Being all sweet and forgiving sounds great...reality is revenge is sweet.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls said: "It is you who are trying to place impetus on men alone."
> 
> Nope. I brought up one scenario, the ONLY scenario in which I have heard women saying they are turning down sex, and that is why I made the point...I don't ever hear women wanting to turn down sex for any other reason AND they weren't happy about turning it down they WANTED good sex. And then I discussed that scenario in a few different posts...and in case you didn't read it the 5 times I already said it, these relationships DID end in divorce.
> 
> So what exactly is your problem here?


You specifically highlighted the uniqueness of your withholding scenario - your women friends only withheld due to bad sex - in response to someone else claiming it was a power issue. So what was the point of your reply if only to say "other women withhold for bad sex?" If you're not generalizing about why women withhold, then your statement is no counter to the post you intended to reject. We can infer then that you are saying "women don't withhold for power/malevolence, they withhold because they don't want bad sex"... or your reply becomes rather meaningless to the power/malevolence issue. No, your post was a clear counterpoint, not an additional reason a woman might withhold. If that wasn't the case, then your reply to me should have been acknowledging that there are a lot of reasons why women might withhold - including bad sex, low-drive, preoccupation, manipulation/power-plays, or just plain malevolence. <--- THAT is my problem with what you said in its context - it was a thinly veiled insult. Instead, you attacked men again, as insecure ("its telling").

I read your posts, thanks. Those marriages did end in divorce, but the women should never have withheld. They should have asked for a divorce the moment they deemed it appropriate to withhold (just as one ought to divorce before having an affair). At the point someone withholds, its now a crapshoot as to whether the other person responds with desired behavior (revealing its coercive nature) or resentment.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No it's not. One has far more reaching consequences.....VD, pregnancy by another, love triangles, life threatening disease like HIV or HPV, firing from a job if a co-worker, hatred of a child towards a parent and in some cases murder.


My thinking is from the context of the marriage itself, not an itemization of physical domino effects. If we take the domino effect argument, then I can say that cheating can be the result of withholding and where does that leave us? 

In the marriage context, withholding is the same as an affair in that its a betrayal. A rejection by someone who supposedly loves you. The same emotional impact and risk to the marriage as an affair.


----------



## jay1365

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No it's not. One has far more reaching consequences.....VD, pregnancy by another, love triangles, life threatening disease like HIV or HPV, firing from a job if a co-worker, hatred of a child towards a parent and in some cases murder.


Do people even say VD these days? Anyway, I don't recall when taking my marriage vows that the violations were ranked. Fact is, withholding leads to infidelity in most cases, which almost makes withholding worse in my book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Go on thinking whatever you want Dvls...your thoughts on it are amusing and fun to read.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Its the same in that its a betrayal. A rejection by someone who supposedly loves you. The same emotional impact and risk to the marriage as an affair.


We disagree. Cheating is a choice to lie, deceive, trick, betray, gas light, hide and play the other for a fool. Not wanting sex is everything from hormonal, to lack of connection/communication in the marriage to not being satisfied in bed. My husband has withheld sex. Would me having unprotected sex with his friend in our house while he was at work to provide for our family be the same? Not a single person here would advocate for that so I don't understand how the two can be "equal". It isn't in the same realm in my opinion.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Go on thinking whatever you want Dvls...your thoughts on it are amusing and fun to read.


Still throwing insults.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

jay1365 said:


> Do people even say VD these days?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry I don't have the proper lingo down. I kick it old school


----------



## sparkyjim

PHTlump said:


> For the record, the OP didn't claim that all women withheld sex. He wrote that many do.


okay...but to say "many" also kind of implies a majority...

I doubt he has slept with over 50% of the female population and I also highly doubt that he has any idea of the percentage of women who withhold sex.

I personally think that if one were to adjust for the variable that some men simply do not try to cultivate a loving sexual relationship with their spouses then the result would be that very few women actually withhold sex from their spouses.


----------



## Faithful Wife

That has been my experience, Sparky. Women love and want sex. So do men. Communication problems can get in the way, as well as many other issues...but bottom line, we all want it. There are some (both men and women) who are truly LD....they may not want it...but most everyone else does.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Therealbrighteyes said:


> We disagree. Cheating is a choice to lie, deceive, trick, betray, gas light, hide and play the other for a fool.


Pretty sure the average withholding excuse sounds a lot like a choice to "lie, deceive, trick, betray, gas light, hide and play the other for a fool." Or are we to think she really does always have a headache? 



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Not wanting sex is everything from hormonal, to lack of connection/communication in the marriage to not being satisfied in bed. My husband has withheld sex.


Deliberately withholding, for whatever reason - to coerce behavior or out of one's own dislike for their spouse, whatever - is always wrong. It deliberately communicates: "I reject you." Hormonal issues are health issues. Cutting out a couple's sex life is only going to exacerbate connection/communication issues in most cases imo.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Would me having unprotected sex with his friend in our house while he was at work to provide for our family be the same?


Odd that you'd differentiate unprotected sex from protected sex... the latter is okay? My answer to you is that I consider withholding sex from me to be an equal violation to cheating on me. Either way, the marriage is over.

The consequences of withholding or cheating are the same for the marriage to me.


----------



## moco82

Faithful Wife said:


> Dvls said: "It is you who are trying to place impetus on men alone."
> 
> This (my posts on this topic) is NOT ABOUT YOU...but I can't help that you read it that way.


He says that he falls in the segment of the population you outlined. I.e. a statement like "43-year-old lawyers residing in Dallas...", and then when a 43-year-old laywer from Dallas speaks up, saying "It's not about you".

Dvls, correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Pretty sure the average withholding excuse sounds a lot like a choice to "lie, deceive, trick, betray, gas light, hide and play the other for a fool." Or are we to think she really does always have a headache?
> 
> 
> 
> Deliberately withholding, for whatever reason - to coerce behavior or out of one's own dislike for their spouse, whatever - is always wrong. It deliberately communicates: "I reject you." Hormonal issues are health issues. Cutting out a couple's sex life is only going to exacerbate connection/communication issues in most cases imo.
> 
> 
> 
> Odd that you'd differentiate unprotected sex from protected sex... the latter is okay? My answer to you is that I consider withholding sex from me to be an equal violation to cheating on me. Either way, the marriage is over.
> 
> The consequences of withholding or cheating are the same for the marriage to me.


You and I aren't going to agree on this. That's cool. To me, cheating leaves one party out. Two people collude to deceive another. That person is totally unaware of what is going on. Withholding sex is between two people. Those two people can make informed decisions about what course of action they want to do. My wording is off but hopefully you got the gist of what I was trying to say. 

I only mentioned unprotected sex because my post right before was about how cheating (unlike withholding sex) can bring a myriad of problems to your partner.....VD/HIV and HPV being three of them.


----------



## zookeeper

I haven't read all the responsed here, but I thought I would share this.

When I was much younger, I had a girlfriend I was pretty serious with. After about 2 years of exclusivity, we took a little weekend trip together. Our sex life had been quite satisfying up to then, we couldn't keep our hands off one another. 

I took her on this weekend, the first night she was tired from the long drive so we just went to sleep. No big deal. The second night, we were fooling around a bit and she just stopped cold. No real reason, just a "I'm not in the mood." I was not pleased and probably reacted a bit childishly. There was not a lot of talking on the drive back the next day. I tried to engage her in a discussion about what happened and she just told me to drop it. 

I saw her two days later and it was as if nothing happened. She was all over me. Later, I asked her what happened over the weekend, why did she just suddenly pull back and withdraw from sex without any warning. She said she was in the mood, but that it was important for me to know that "You don't just get sex because you want it." She actually smiled when she said this, as if it was cute or something.

I was young and stupid and it took me a few weeks to understand what she meant. It was all about control. She wanted to make sure I understood her rank. I don't think there was any malice behind it, but it was humiliating for me none the less. I felt like a child, or maybe a dog who would get the treat only if he rolled over when commanded. I broke up with her.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You and I aren't going to agree on this. That's cool. To me, cheating leaves one party out. Two people collude to deceive another. That person is totally unaware of what is going on. Withholding sex is between two people so those two people can make informed decisions about what course of action they want to do. My wording is off but hopefully you got the gist of what I was trying to say.
> 
> I only mentioned unprotected sex because my post right before was about how cheating (unlike withholding sex) can bring a myriad of problems to your partner.....VD/HIV and HPV being three of them.


I get you and your wording is fine. When I say they are the same, I'm referring to the consequences for the marriage. To me they are both deceptions - lying about why you won't have sex (ie headache) vs hiding an affair. Both keep a partner in the dark.

While a partner may have tried to get the other to up their game in bed so to speak, I doubt the actual act of withholding comes with the statement "I don't want to have sex with you because of xyz that you do." It is left to the person wanting sex to connect the dots. That's kinda like a person voicing all their gripes prior to cheating. Obviously they're not equivalent physically, but both distinctly say "I don't want you anymore."

That's how I feel about them, and I totally get why someone would rank one worse than the other. Both are divorce worthy offenses to me however.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

zookeeper said:


> She said she was in the mood, but that it was important for me to know that "You don't just get sex because you want it." She actually smiled when she said this, as if it was cute or something.


I've gotten that same routine and have no idea what that's about. Asserting her control? Not feeling sl*tty? Depriving me of sex to make me prove I want her for more than just sex?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I get you and your wording is fine. When I say they are the same, I'm referring to the consequences for the marriage. To me they are both deceptions - lying about why you won't have sex (ie headache) vs hiding an affair. Both keep a partner in the dark.
> 
> While a partner may have tried to get the other to up their game in bed so to speak, I doubt the actual act of withholding comes with the statement "I don't want to have sex with you because of xyz that you do." It is left to the person wanting sex to connect the dots. That's kinda like a person voicing all their gripes prior to cheating. Obviously they're not equivalent physically, but both distinctly say "I don't want you anymore."
> 
> That's how I feel about them, and I totally get why someone would rank one worse than the other. Both are divorce worthy offenses to me however.


I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with it. I think one harms a marriage much worse. I can forgive my husband withholding when he did, I could never forgive him cheating.......ever. Heck, I'd probably be in jail.


----------



## PHTlump

Faithful Wife said:


> That was my point. If women so gleefully withhold sex as this thread suggests...wouldn't one of my female friends over all of my life time have alluded to it, at least once? Never happened once.


Perhaps your female friends refrain from bragging about doing shameful things. Do they admit to kicking dogs? Stealing candy from babies? Farting in elevators? Probably not.



> I'm just reporting what happened, but it is pretty telling that even hearing the hint that one man somewhere might be sucky in bed can strike fear into other men...."oh no...are they talking about me??"


Well, opinions are obviously relative. What might concern some people is the knowledge that their family stability, the well being of their children, and their future financial security, hangs by the thread of their being able to consistently satisfy their wives' sexual demands. To some, especially men who foolishly bought into the Judeo-Christian idea of marriage as a lifetime commitment, that knowledge can be scary.


----------



## PHTlump

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No it's not. One has far more reaching consequences.....VD, pregnancy by another, love triangles, life threatening disease like HIV or HPV, firing from a job if a co-worker, hatred of a child towards a parent and in some cases murder.


It's foolish to rank two betrayals by their potential consequences. Playing with matches would have to rank as a high problem in marriage, right? You could burn the house down. Ditto for not changing the batteries in the smoke detector.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

PHTlump said:


> It's foolish to rank two betrayals by their potential consequences.


No, it's not when one has a much higher cost to a marriage, health, children, job and extended family. Cheating on a high school test is not as serious as cheating on your taxes but both are cheating. Which would you prefer to be guilty of?


----------



## PHTlump

Therealbrighteyes said:


> We disagree. Cheating is a choice to lie, deceive, trick, betray, gas light, hide and play the other for a fool.


True.



> Not wanting sex is everything from hormonal, to lack of connection/communication in the marriage to not being satisfied in bed.


That is also true. But we're not discussing not wanting sex. We're discussing frequently withholding sex.



> My husband has withheld sex.


Does he frequently withhold sex? Does he make lame excuses that lead to you questioning his desire for you? Because that's what we're discussing.



> Would me having unprotected sex with his friend in our house while he was at work to provide for our family be the same? Not a single person here would advocate for that so I don't understand how the two can be "equal". It isn't in the same realm in my opinion.


You're wrong. What is the damage done by infidelity? It's a betrayal that leads to the betrayed spouse questioning his/her own worth, the history of the relationship, whether the disloyal spouse still loves him/her, and whether the disloyal spouse EVER loved him/her. It's not the fear of catching VD that horrifies betrayed spouses when they learn the news.

Now, examine a spouse who is neglected by a withholding spouse. He/she questions his/her own worth, the history of the relationship, whether the withholding spouse still loves him/her, and whether the disloyal spouse EVER loved him/her. No person has ever come to these boards and written, "My spouse refuses to have sex with me, but I take comfort that I won't catch VD the next time we're together."

They are similar betrayals to one's spouse.


----------



## PHTlump

sparkyjim said:


> okay...but to say "many" also kind of implies a majority...


Not to Merriam, or Webster. Many implies a large, but indefinite, number.



> I doubt he has slept with over 50% of the female population and I also highly doubt that he has any idea of the percentage of women who withhold sex.
> 
> I personally think that if one were to adjust for the variable that some men simply do not try to cultivate a loving sexual relationship with their spouses then the result would be that very few women actually withhold sex from their spouses.


You use a lack of rigorous statistical analysis as your basis for attacking the idea that many women behave in a certain way. In the same post, you then argue that many women behave in a certain way.

And you appear to do it without any sort of ironic self-awareness. For that, you deserve a hearty golf clap.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with it. I think one harms a marriage much worse. I can forgive my husband withholding when he did, I could never forgive him cheating.......ever. Heck, I'd probably be in jail.


Just curious, was he actually withholding in the way I've defined? Willfully denying you sex when he was capable?

ie - from your perspective there is no obvious cause... he just shuts down every attempt you make.


----------



## moco82

zookeeper said:


> She said she was in the mood, but that it was important for me to know that "You don't just get sex because you want it." She actually smiled when she said this, as if it was cute or something...I felt like a child, or maybe a dog who would get the treat only if he rolled over when commanded. I broke up with her.


Oh yes, in my younger days I've also been in this situation a couple of times.


----------



## PHTlump

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Withholding sex is between two people. Those two people can make informed decisions about what course of action they want to do.


There have been many (there's that word again) threads on these boards dealing with withholding spouses. Please direct me to even a single instance where a person has stated, "My spouse and I have decided that he/she should withhold sex from me."

Personally, I have never seen one. And I doubt that I just missed them. I doubt they exist. All of the withholding threads that I have seen involve lame excuses of being too busy for sex. Not too busy for Facebook, or Words with Friends, or watching a rerun of Dexter, just too busy for sex.

And most of the spouses in those threads believe the withholding spouse's excuses. Oh, maybe the more perspicacious have an idea that something more is going on. But I've lost count of the numbers of people doing more dishes to try to eliminate the excuses given for withholding sex.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

PHTlump said:


> Does he frequently withhold sex? Does he make lame excuses that lead to you questioning his desire for you? Because that's what we're discussing.
> 
> I'm aware of what we are talking about. Lame excuses? Hurt back, not feeling well, tough day at work, it's light out, it's dark out, need to get up early, his parents are in town and might pop over without notice, kids might come home from their sleepover. Yeah, I got 'em all. Guess what? I chose to stay with him anyways. That's on me. We did work through it though and counseling helped tremendously. Not perfect but we aren't in that situation anymore. I understand that isn't a solution for everybody and that's why we all have the freedom to leave.
> 
> Now, examine a spouse who is neglected by a withholding spouse. He/she questions his/her own worth, the history of the relationship, whether the withholding spouse still loves him/her, and whether the disloyal spouse EVER loved him/her. No person has ever come to these boards and written, "My spouse refuses to have sex with me, but I take comfort that I won't catch VD the next time we're together."
> 
> Are you or are you not aware that it is going on? 1 month/two months/a year and no sex? You know and make a choice to stay anyways. With cheating, you are not aware of what is going on and your choice is taken away from you. To me, the two are not the same whatsoever.
> 
> They are similar betrayals to one's spouse.


We will disagree then. I don't see them as even remotely the same. I certainly hope I don't come off as cold about this. I truly understand what it feels like. I also understand that I chose to continue with the marriage being what it was. Infidelity would have taken that choice from me.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Just curious, was he actually withholding in the way I've defined? Willfully denying you sex when he was capable?
> 
> ie - from your perspective there is no obvious cause... he just shuts down every attempt you make.


Yes.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No it's not. One has far more reaching consequences.....VD, pregnancy by another, love triangles, life threatening disease like HIV or HPV, firing from a job if a co-worker, hatred of a child towards a parent and in some cases murder.


I don't expect folks to get behind my thoughts on this. For me it's simple. It's a boundary.

Both are betrayal, abandonment, deception, obfuscation, manipulation and dishonest. Both are wrong.

The fact that a withholding spouse is exhonerated of any wrong-doing if the withheld decides to step out and is discovered, in my mind is the ultimate hypocrisy.

Are there better ways to handle the entire situation? Of course. But lets face it, people don't always make good choices.


----------



## Deejo

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I can forgive my husband withholding when he did, I could never forgive him cheating.......ever. Heck, I'd probably be in jail.



I bet he knows that too.


----------



## PHTlump

Therealbrighteyes said:


> No, it's not when one has a much higher cost to a marriage, health, children, job and extended family.


Well, what if your husband was exceedingly considerate when he cheated on you. He used condoms, so no pregnancy or disease concerns. He didn't do anything with a coworker, so no harm to his career. Would you be able to forgive him, then?

What if you husband beat you up a little bit (not leaving any marks) and locked you in a closet for a few hours. No permanent physical harm done. Nobody outside the two of you would ever know. Would that be as bad as cheating? How about cheating with a condom?



> Cheating on a high school test is not as serious as cheating on your taxes but both are cheating. Which would you prefer to be guilty of?


Your analogy is inappropriate. Cheating on a test is an offense against a school. Cheating on taxes is an offense against the government. The two entities have different powers to enforce consequences.

Withholding sex and cheating are each offenses against one's spouse. The spouse could enforce equal consequences for each offense. Now, I would certainly rather be guilty of forgetting my anniversary than having an affair. But, I see an affair and habitual withholding both as primary and visceral rejections of one's spouse.


----------



## remorseful strayer

Deejo said:


> I don't expect folks to get behind my thoughts on this. For me it's simple. It's a boundary.
> 
> Both are betrayal, abandonment, deception, obfuscation, manipulation and dishonest. Both are wrong.
> 
> The fact that a withholding spouse is exhonerated of any wrong-doing if the withheld decides to step out and is discovered, in my mind is the ultimate hypocrisy.
> 
> Are there better ways to handle the entire situation? Of course. But lets face it, people don't always make good choices.


Well, Deejo. I needed to hear something like that, today. 

Coming from a moderator it even holds more sway for me. 

At least my wife finally took some responsibility for breaking the sexual bond for ten years.

I really could have handled things better. Thinking I solved the problem with my methods was truly stupid. 

But, I couldn't drag her into counseling, physically, if she was dead set against it for ten years. 

Thank you for taking a stand.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yes.


I don't mean to be nosey, but do you mind relating what his actual reason was? (as opposed to the excuses)

Don't worry about it if I'm prying too much, I'm just curious. I've heard a lot about cases where the withholder is female and very little about male withholders.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I don't expect folks to get behind my thoughts on this. For me it's simple. It's a boundary.
> 
> Both are betrayal, abandonment, deception, obfuscation, manipulation and dishonest. Both are wrong.
> 
> The fact that a withholding spouse is exhonerated of any wrong-doing if the withheld decides to step out and is discovered, in my mind is the ultimate hypocrisy.
> 
> Are there better ways to handle the entire situation? Of course. But lets face it, people don't always make good choices.


I hear you and appreciate what you said. Perhaps at some point we could all have a discussion about why a person would withhold sex? In counseling, it came out that my husband did it because he felt like I belittled him and wouldn't listen to him. He felt like I thought I was better than him and he felt like I regretted marrying him. All of which was true at that point.  So if I made him feel that way, would I be justified then in seeking sex from someone else because he wouldn't put out? What if we flip the genders and it's a wife whose husband barely looks at her while talking, favors video games/drinking/friends/work/tv instead of interacting with her. Is he justified in cheating because at 11:00 pm he (now) wants her (sex) and after being second fiddle she doesn't?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> I bet he knows that too.


This made me smile. Love your injection of humor in to a really tense subject. :rofl:


----------



## PHTlump

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I'm aware of what we are talking about. Lame excuses? Hurt back, not feeling well, tough day at work, it's light out, it's dark out, need to get up early, his parents are in town and might pop over without notice, kids might come home from their sleepover. Yeah, I got 'em all. Guess what? I chose to stay with him anyways. That's on me.


Well, it's partly on you and it's partly on him. I doubt that, when he was giving you all of his excuses, he bluntly told you that he no longer loved you, was no longer attracted to you, or had no intention of having sex with you. Now, if he had given you THAT kind of information, and you chose to stay, then you would have made a truly informed decision.



> Are you or are you not aware that it is going on? 1 month/two months/a year and no sex? You know and make a choice to stay anyways.


In my case, no. I didn't know. I never went months or years without sex. But, for years the frequency of sex with my wife was lousy. And I bought her excuses. She just doesn't handle stress as well as most women. She just has a higher work ethic than most women. She just has a lower libido than most women. I wanted to believe her. It's no different from the person whose spouse is giving off red flags for infidelity, but he/she refuses to consider the possibility.


----------



## Deejo

remorseful strayer said:


> Well, Deejo. I needed to hear something like that, today.
> 
> Coming from a moderator it even holds more sway for me.
> 
> At least my wife finally took some responsibility for breaking the sexual bond for ten years.
> 
> I really could have handled things better. Thinking I solved the problem with my methods was truly stupid.
> 
> But, I couldn't drag her into counseling, physically, if she was dead set against it for ten years.
> 
> Thank you for taking a stand.


Humbly, all else I can say is that there is a world of difference between verbalizing a boundary, and actually having to enforce it, when you know the consequences will be painful and catastrophic.


----------



## remorseful strayer

> I hear you and appreciate what you said. Perhaps at some point we could all have a discussion about why a person would withhold sex? In counseling, it came out that my husband did it because he felt like I belittled him and wouldn't listen to him. He felt like I thought I was better than him and he felt like I regretted marrying him. All of which was true at that point. So if I made him feel that way, would I be justified then in seeking sex from someone else because he wouldn't put out? What if we flip the genders and it's a wife whose husband barely looks at her while talking, favors video games/drinking/friends/work/tv instead of interacting with her. Is he justified in cheating because at 11:00 pm he (now) wants her (sex) and after being second fiddle she doesn't?


This is a timely thread for me. 

I think a lot of what you post above is rare. A lot of women, and men simply lose interest in sex at a certain age. 

Perhaps the reasons your husband gave you were true. And, bless you for acknowledging they were true. 

Nevertheless, a large percentage of spouses are simply no longer interested in sex because they have a low sex drive and other priorities. 

My wife claimed she had transcended sex, and when pressed she would admit she thought it was messy. 

When we were having sex, she only wanted to do it on Saturday night after we had gotten home from a dinner out with friends. 

If I wanted to be spontaneous, she wasn't interested. There were all sorts of excuses. .....it would muss her hair, her makeup, etc. 

I tried romance, I tried plying her with alcohol, I tried doing the dishes and rubbing her back. 

I suggested a therapist skilled in low sex drive issues. She refused.

I loved her. She has a lot of good qualities. I remembered the days when our sex life was exquisite, and did not want a divorce. So, I tried to solve the problem, without losing her.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

remorseful strayer said:


> This is a timely thread for me.
> 
> I think a lot of what you post above is rare. A lot of women, and men simply lose interest in sex at a certain age.
> 
> Perhaps the reasons your husband gave you were true. And, bless you for acknowledging they were true.
> 
> Nevertheless, a large percentage of spouses are simply no longer interested in sex because they have a low sex drive and other priorities.
> 
> My wife claimed she had transcended sex, and when pressed she would admit she thought it was messy.
> 
> When we were having sex, she only wanted to do it on Saturday night after we had gotten home from a dinner out with friends.
> 
> If I wanted to be spontaneous, she wasn't interested. There were all sorts of excuses. .....it would muss her hair, her makeup, etc.
> 
> I tried romance, I tried plying her with alcohol, I tried doing the dishes and rubbing her back.
> 
> I suggested a therapist skilled in low sex drive issues. She refused.
> 
> I loved her. She has a lot of good qualities. I remembered the days when our sex life was exquisite, and did not want a divorce. So, I tried to solve the problem, without losing her.


I can only gauge from my own experiences but I think it is rare for a person to just lose interest in sex. Yes, they lose interest in sex with their partner but not sex. The reason for this loss of interest with their spouse is due to lack of emotional connection, loss of respect and loss of attraction. Does it suck to be on the receiving end of this? Yup. My husband told me time and time again he didn't have a "drive". Imagine my anger when I find out he in fact did, just not for me. Hurt like hell and I can sympathize with everybody here who has gone through it. The thing is, for me, (besides attraction), the other "reasons" are excuses to mask the root of the problem. The reality is he didn't want sex WITH ME but would have leapt at the opportunity to have sex with others if given the chance. I believe that is the case for many, many here. Again, this is my take from my own experience so make of it what you will. I don't know your wife or anybody else here. I just know what happened in my own marriage. He had plenty drive, it just wasn't for me.

I wanted to add I didn't wake up one day and start belittling my husband. We both contributed to the issues in our marriage. He let a co-worker of his (at a function) grope and verbally harass me in front of him and did nothing, even when other husbands stood up to this guy and knocked him to the ground. He said it "wasn't worth it to him" and he "didn't want to make a scene". He wasn't a superior either, my husband was his. Another incident involved his parents who mistreated me in a very painful way. He acknowledged that it was cruel yet said nothing to them saying "He didn't want to upset them". My respect for him went to zero. He "avoided conflict" by throwing me under the bus, repeatedly. Instead of acting mature about it though and perhaps ending the marriage, I turned to belittling/mocking/hurting him on many, many occasions. He in turn didn't want sex with me. Wash, rinse, repeat. Until we got extensive counseling, nothing changed. So no, sex drive was just an excuse.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Perhaps at some point we could all have a discussion about why a person would withhold sex?


Sure, why not now?



Therealbrighteyes said:


> So if I made him feel that way, would I be justified then in seeking sex from someone else because he wouldn't put out?


No, you are justified in asking him why he refuses to meet your needs and telling him how much it hurts you.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Is he justified in cheating because at 11:00 pm he (now) wants her (sex) and after being second fiddle she doesn't?


No, but she is responsible for telling him how she feels at the moment.


----------



## MEM2020

Remorseful,
Does your wife now understand how much distress this caused you? Did she understand it back then, and simply pretended it was 'your problem'?

The difference between us is that each one the few times my W attempted to assert total control over our sex I went straight to a simple script: 
Sounds like you really don't 'want' to do that, and I certainly don't want 'that' if you don't enjoy it. I will find an extra marital playmate or massage parlor. 

I vowed to be monogamous not celibate. 

I said it, meant it and would have calmly done it. Each time I got a brief period of hysterical bonding and then back to our normal (twice a week or so) routine. 



QUOTE=remorseful strayer;4874722]This is a timely thread for me. 

I think a lot of what you post above is rare. A lot of women, and men simply lose interest in sex at a certain age. 

Perhaps the reasons your husband gave you were true. And, bless you for acknowledging they were true. 

Nevertheless, a large percentage of spouses are simply no longer interested in sex because they have a low sex drive and other priorities. 

My wife claimed she had transcended sex, and when pressed she would admit she thought it was messy. 

When we were having sex, she only wanted to do it on Saturday night after we had gotten home from a dinner out with friends. 

If I wanted to be spontaneous, she wasn't interested. There were all sorts of excuses. .....it would muss her hair, her makeup, etc. 

I tried romance, I tried plying her with alcohol, I tried doing the dishes and rubbing her back. 

I suggested a therapist skilled in low sex drive issues. She refused.

I loved her. She has a lot of good qualities. I remembered the days when our sex life was exquisite, and did not want a divorce. So, I tried to solve the problem, without losing her.[/QUOTE]


----------



## moco82

Therealbrighteyes, I love that you're using your imagination to fill in the gaps, but her withholding days were back when I wanted her and tried to initiate almost every day. Her reasons varied, sometimes seemed legitimate, sometimes like excuses. But do carry on.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

moco82 said:


> Therealbrighteyes, I love that you're using your imagination to fill in the gaps, but her withholding days were back when I wanted her and tried to initiate almost every day. Her reasons varied, sometimes seemed legitimate, sometimes like excuses. But do carry on.


Sorry, I'm only going off what you posted. You said you weren't attracted to her and married her anyways. Was I wrong about that? If I am, please set me straight because I don't know you or your life, just what you have posted here. :scratchhead:


----------



## remorseful strayer

> Therealbrighteyes said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can only gauge from my own experiences but I think it is rare for a person to just lose interest in sex. Yes, they lose interest in sex with their partner but not sex. The reason for this loss of interest with their spouse is due to lack of emotional connection, loss of respect and loss of attraction. Does it suck to be on the receiving end of this? Yup.
> 
> 
> 
> There are studies that indicate low sex drive/high sex drive marriages is a huge and very common issue these days.
> 
> Sometimes it starts right after the honeymoon period for both men and women. Sometimes it stars after childbirth for some women as early as their 20s.
> 
> In some cases the spouse is being so obnoxious that they push the other spouse away and that is at the root.
> 
> But the assumption that marital unhappiness is at the root of Low sex drive is not supported by studies.
> 
> In counseling my wife said that she was happy in the marriage but had simply lost interest in sex.
> 
> She said it started to seem primitive to her and messy.
Click to expand...


----------



## remorseful strayer

MEM11363 said:


> Remorseful,
> Does your wife now understand how much distress this caused you? Did she understand it back then, and simply pretended it was 'your problem'?
> 
> The difference between us is that each one the few times my W attempted to assert total control over our sex I went straight to a simple script:
> Sounds like you really don't 'want' to do that, and I certainly don't want 'that' if you don't enjoy it. I will find an extra marital playmate or massage parlor.
> 
> I vowed to be monogamous not celibate.
> 
> I said it, meant it and would have calmly done it. Each time I got a brief period of hysterical bonding and then back to our normal (twice a week or so) routine.


Hi Mem: 

In retrospect, I should have used that approach rather than just having an affair. 

I did think about it, but I did not want to feel as if I were bullying her into sex. In retrospect, it still would have been better than cheating, and if she did nothing about it, at least she would have been warned. 

Yes. She did understand it was an issue. I offered to visit a skilled sex therapist so that she could feel comfortable voicing any complaints about me, and we could address the issue. 

She repeatedly refused. 

I also ruled out physical issues. She had none. She was simply no longer interested in sex with me or anyone, according to her. 

I did a number of times mention to her that her lack of desire made me feel undesirable or inadequate, but she just laughed it off and told me that a marriage is about more than sex. 

She also trotted out recent studies showing that a large proportion of couples had a sexless marriage. She suggested it was somewhat normal, and that I was abnormal for wanting sex.

I do not in any way advocate that anyone have an affair to solve this problem. 

Perhaps, if I had simply asked for a temporary separation that may have woken her up.


----------



## moco82

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Sorry, I'm only going off what you posted. You said you weren't attracted to her and married her anyways. Was I wrong about that? If I am, please set me straight because I don't know you or your life, just what you have posted here. :scratchhead:


I knew in the back of my head that if I didn't fall in love with her due to things other than appearance, I wouldn't have pursued her. She was attractive to me personally for a long period of time due to all factors together. It was actually encouraging because everything from fairy tales to modern films tells us that personality trumps looks, and I thought the balance would hold. It did not, not least because I refused to heed the voice in the back of my head that told me some things she was doing weren't nice--but I was too in love to take offense. No personality is perfect, but I tried to convince myself that the aspects of hers that I liked completely outweighed other aspects. (Textbook Nice Guy case, but that's for another thread.) Years later, she is completely nice because I eventually dispelled whatever concerned her about settling for me (brought about income high enough for her to stay at home for a while and then work part-time, did full share of parenting, household upkeep, always there to help, etc.), but it's too late. She may be nicer and hornier because I underwent a Nice Guy transformation, a kind of _Office Space_ moment when the combined pressure of work and household/parenting flipped some kind of switch in my head. But that transformation desensitized me along with curing the Nice Guy Syndrome.


----------



## Racer

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with it. I think one harms a marriage much worse. I can forgive my husband withholding when he did, I could never forgive him cheating.......ever. Heck, I'd probably be in jail.


I’m gonna jump back to this.

I was kept in a nearly sexless marriage for 10 years. During that time, we had sex maybe 8 times a year (mostly duty) and went up to 9 months without any. I really truly hated this. Night after night of rejection by someone you desperately wanted and desired and loved. Every excuse in the world was issued.

My wife also had affairs off and on for 6 years of that. She’s SA.

You know which one hurts me the most? The lack of sex between her and I. That did the most mental damage to me in the long run and shredded my own self-esteem. Because it was known and between us and talked about, I had years and years to listen to her words and excuses and think about it over and over and over. I tried to do all this stuff she said would work to make me attractive again to her. I sold my soul and became a total doormat in the pursuit of feeling like I was wanted and desired (which I get through intimacy and believed my vows gave her exclusive rights to). That is what I was denied. 

I didn’t have the same opportunity to dwell on her affairs as they were unknown to me. Even now, 4.5 years after DD, I dwell a lot more on that pain of rejection than her affairs. I still feel absolutely unwanted and undesired and struggle with this. And our sex life is petering out again. The difference this time around is I am no longer that desperate for her; I don’t whine or complain. She sort of killed that overwhelming attraction I used to have.

And interestingly, for the original poster... If you want to hurt them the most. Let them feel you go soft the minute it becomes duty sex and just dismount. Go take a shower and cry. The difference between men and women is men can’t fake it. So she knows regardless of my words, there is a part of me that completely rejects what she is offering. And it isn’t ED; She knows this too. I have zero problems with stimulation from other sources. It is her triggering resentments and regrets of a sexless marriage and feeling undesired. That’s the kind of damage this does. I’m your lab rat.


----------



## treyvion

Racer said:


> I’m gonna jump back to this.
> 
> I was kept in a nearly sexless marriage for 10 years. During that time, we had sex maybe 8 times a year (mostly duty) and went up to 9 months without any. I really truly hated this. Night after night of rejection by someone you desperately wanted and desired and loved. Every excuse in the world was issued.
> 
> My wife also had affairs off and on for 6 years of that. She’s SA.
> 
> You know which one hurts me the most? The lack of sex between her and I. That did the most mental damage to me in the long run and shredded my own self-esteem. Because it was known and between us and talked about, I had years and years to listen to her words and excuses and think about it over and over and over. I tried to do all this stuff she said would work to make me attractive again to her. I sold my soul and became a total doormat in the pursuit of feeling like I was wanted and desired (which I get through intimacy and believed my vows gave her exclusive rights to). That is what I was denied.
> 
> I didn’t have the same opportunity to dwell on her affairs as they were unknown to me. Even now, 4.5 years after DD, I dwell a lot more on that pain of rejection than her affairs. I still feel absolutely unwanted and undesired and struggle with this. And our sex life is petering out again. The difference this time around is I am no longer that desperate for her; I don’t whine or complain. She sort of killed that overwhelming attraction I used to have.
> 
> And interestingly, for the original poster... If you want to hurt them the most. Let them feel you go soft the minute it becomes duty sex and just dismount. Go take a shower and cry. The difference between men and women is men can’t fake it. So she knows regardless of my words, there is a part of me that completely rejects what she is offering. And it isn’t ED; She knows this too. I have zero problems with stimulation from other sources. It is her triggering resentments and regrets of a sexless marriage and feeling undesired. That’s the kind of damage this does. I’m your lab rat.


Your ED or going soft is due to you being responsive to her desire. No desire or negative desire and you just don't have any motivation to be super hard.


----------



## moco82

Racer said:


> If you want to hurt them the most. Let them feel you go soft the minute it becomes duty sex and just dismount. Go take a shower and cry. The difference between men and women is men can’t fake it.


Whoa. That might have been good tit-for-tat in the past that I described, but not now. My original post was in response to the amusement of seeing the shoe on the other foot a couple of times. Almost an anthropological observation. We've warmed up and had sex since, but this thread had grown into such an amusing study of gender relations that I didn't want to spoil it.


----------



## Sanity

okeydokie said:


> Withholding sex leads to the other partner eventually not wanting sex from the with holder anymore. Whether done for spite or done because as a withholder you just don't have any sex drive, the result is usually the same, divorce


Exhibit A here. My ex wife played games with sex and "punished" me when I didn't behave according to her ever changing high standards. Eventually I just got done with it and didn't ask. Ironically, after months of no sex she would accuse me of cheating because I have not had sex in awhile. How does a person not roll their eyes and whisper "I hate you".


----------



## treyvion

Sanity said:


> Exhibit A here. My ex wife played games with sex and "punished" me when I didn't behave according to her ever changing high standards. Eventually I just got done with it and didn't ask. Ironically, after months of no sex she would accuse me of cheating because I have not had sex in awhile. How does a person not roll their eyes and whisper "I hate you".


After so long for not being an option, you can kind of lose desire for it... So yes your not alone.


----------



## treyvion

Jung_admirer said:


> In the early 80's I had a serious girlfriend who believed she should be able to guide my choice of university. I asked her if she was serious, and she answered 'yes'. Ended the relationship that night ... Became a nice guy somewhere along the way, until about a year ago. Nice guy is now gone ... man, that guy was a pu$$y and I was glad to put him down.


That guy was probably that way, and not getting a large accumulation of said resource, lol...


----------



## MEM2020

Remorseful,
I think the 'bullying' concern is valid. 

Angrily threatening to 'get a girlfriend' is a direct attack on the stability of the marriage. That is a type of bullying. 

It is not bullying to tell your spouse that you accept their preference to end the physical part of the marriage and that you will get your needs met (thru paid sex) in a way that doesn't risk the stability of the marriage. 

Just as your ex used the 'sexless marriages are common / normal' 
tactic with you, the statement that 'affairs are just as common / normal' fits in here. 

The conversation goes like this: While cheating is a common reaction to a sexually broken marriage, I am not going to do that. I am however going to discretely get my needs met. 

If your LD spouse attempts to shame or threaten (divorce) you over this, it is pretty clear who the bully is. 

There is nothing remotely reasonable about a spouse simultaneously saying: I have no responsibility to meet your sexual needs and yet retain total authority over what you do with your body. 



remorseful strayer said:


> Hi Mem:
> 
> In retrospect, I should have used that approach rather than just having an affair.
> 
> I did think about it, but I did not want to feel as if I were bullying her into sex. In retrospect, it still would have been better than cheating, and if she did nothing about it, at least she would have been warned.
> 
> Yes. She did understand it was an issue. I offered to visit a skilled sex therapist so that she could feel comfortable voicing any complaints about me, and we could address the issue.
> 
> She repeatedly refused.
> 
> I also ruled out physical issues. She had none. She was simply no longer interested in sex with me or anyone, according to her.
> 
> I did a number of times mention to her that her lack of desire made me feel undesirable or inadequate, but she just laughed it off and told me that a marriage is about more than sex.
> 
> She also trotted out recent studies showing that a large proportion of couples had a sexless marriage. She suggested it was somewhat normal, and that I was abnormal for wanting sex.
> 
> I do not in any way advocate that anyone have an affair to solve this problem.
> 
> Perhaps, if I had simply asked for a temporary separation that may have woken her up.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

moco82 said:


> I knew in the back of my head that if I didn't fall in love with her due to things other than appearance, I wouldn't have pursued her. She was attractive to me personally for a long period of time due to all factors together. It was actually encouraging because everything from fairy tales to modern films tells us that personality trumps looks, and I thought the balance would hold. It did not, not least because I refused to heed the voice in the back of my head that told me some things she was doing weren't nice--but I was too in love to take offense. No personality is perfect, but I tried to convince myself that the aspects of hers that I liked completely outweighed other aspects. (Textbook Nice Guy case, but that's for another thread.) Years later, she is completely nice because I eventually dispelled whatever concerned her about settling for me (brought about income high enough for her to stay at home for a while and then work part-time, did full share of parenting, household upkeep, always there to help, etc.), but it's too late. She may be nicer and hornier because I underwent a Nice Guy transformation, a kind of _Office Space_ moment when the combined pressure of work and household/parenting flipped some kind of switch in my head. But that transformation desensitized me along with curing the Nice Guy Syndrome.


So what do you plan to do? This sounds like an awful way to live.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Racer said:


> I’m gonna jump back to this.
> 
> I was kept in a nearly sexless marriage for 10 years. During that time, we had sex maybe 8 times a year (mostly duty) and went up to 9 months without any. I really truly hated this. Night after night of rejection by someone you desperately wanted and desired and loved. Every excuse in the world was issued.
> 
> My wife also had affairs off and on for 6 years of that. She’s SA.
> 
> You know which one hurts me the most? The lack of sex between her and I. That did the most mental damage to me in the long run and shredded my own self-esteem. Because it was known and between us and talked about, I had years and years to listen to her words and excuses and think about it over and over and over. I tried to do all this stuff she said would work to make me attractive again to her. I sold my soul and became a total doormat in the pursuit of feeling like I was wanted and desired (which I get through intimacy and believed my vows gave her exclusive rights to). That is what I was denied.
> 
> I didn’t have the same opportunity to dwell on her affairs as they were unknown to me. Even now, 4.5 years after DD, I dwell a lot more on that pain of rejection than her affairs. I still feel absolutely unwanted and undesired and struggle with this. And our sex life is petering out again. The difference this time around is I am no longer that desperate for her; I don’t whine or complain. She sort of killed that overwhelming attraction I used to have.
> 
> And interestingly, for the original poster... If you want to hurt them the most. Let them feel you go soft the minute it becomes duty sex and just dismount. Go take a shower and cry. The difference between men and women is men can’t fake it. So she knows regardless of my words, there is a part of me that completely rejects what she is offering. And it isn’t ED; She knows this too. I have zero problems with stimulation from other sources. It is her triggering resentments and regrets of a sexless marriage and feeling undesired. That’s the kind of damage this does. I’m your lab rat.


I am very sorry for your situation. That literally hurt my heart reading this. I have no words to say just a virtual hug. ((((( )))))


----------



## moco82

Therealbrighteyes said:


> So what do you plan to do? This sounds like an awful way to live.


Just go with the flow. It all worked out for the protagonist in _Office Space_ when he went with the flow.


----------



## remorseful strayer

> It is not bullying to tell your spouse that you accept their preference to end the physical part of the marriage and that you will get your needs met (thru paid sex) in a way that doesn't risk the stability of the marriage.


A valid point, mem. I did have that talk and did use high end call girls. That was unacceptable to her. 

We have been married a long time, and I love her. I don't need her, though, I earn a good salary and since that happened women seem shamelessly aggressive toward me.

She has many good qualities and was always an excellent wife and very sexual. By my observation in many respects she was going through the women's version of the mid life crisis.

When other ways to solve the issue failed, I thought I could cheat and not get caught. Problem solved. I kept he marriage and as long as my wife never found out, things would be okay. 

I am just here to say that it was a very stupid thing to do. 

I think had I packed and left, she may have come around on he own. She has now and things are vastly improve albeit tainted by both the affair and her period of no sexual desire.



> There is nothing remotely reasonable about a spouse simultaneously saying: I have no responsibility to meet your sexual needs and yet retain total authority over what you do with your body.


Without a doubt. 

She does realize that now. That's a large part of why our reconciliation is working.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

moco82 said:


> Just go with the flow. It all worked out for the protagonist in _Office Space_ when he went with the flow.


Ha, ha. Are you Peter or Milton?


----------



## Runs like Dog

Therealbrighteyes said:


> For every Cinderella there is a Prince Charming. A man with a need to "rescue" a broken woman so he can be viewed in high esteem by others. There's plenty of peering down by both genders.


No doubt there is/are.


----------



## Racer

MEM11363 said:


> It is not bullying to tell your spouse that you accept their preference to end the physical part of the marriage and that you will get your needs met (thru paid sex) in a way that doesn't risk the stability of the marriage..


I went through that one a billion times in my head. What it comes down to is what sex means to me. Sort of goes back to the birds and the bee’s talk: “When a man *loves* a woman, he takes ____”. It is an emotional expression. 

Thing is, I’m also not dumb. It doesn’t have to be an expression. It can be a service, and I'm ok with that too IF it isn't the norm. That’s what a hooker does, that’s how my wife treated it too; A commodity of value and worth, not an expression of emotion. I’ve learned to enjoy myself with that gift, but it lacks emotional value for what I crave. 

What I wanted was the emotional response sort of sex; That overwhelming drawn to jump MY bones and seduce. The old romantic in me is not dead. That kind of sex was rare from my wife. No hooker can provide that; An affair can (sorry, but true). No way out without divorce. I felt petty if my sole reason for divorce and tearing my family apart was sex alone. That felt selfish. As would an affair. And was her prime argument against allowing me sex; “You are so selfish and that’s all you think about!” So, I also associate selfish things with unattractive traits. 

No winners... everything in and around sex in my head leads to overwhelming feelings of ‘loser’ and beating myself up for giving her the keys to my self-esteem as far as sex goes.


----------



## moco82

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Ha, ha. Are you Peter or Milton?


Milton didn't have an epiphany, so I guess Peter. I had actually listened to "Damn, It Feels Good to be a Gangsta" a few times in recent months. It's liberating to find out that the world doesn't come crumbling down if you say "No" and don't stay up until 2am, whether it's a work project or the dishes.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

moco82 said:


> Milton didn't have an epiphany,


He sort of did when he figured out he hated the company enough to burn it to the ground instead of sucking it up for another day.


----------



## treyvion

MEM11363 said:


> Remorseful,
> I think the 'bullying' concern is valid.
> 
> Angrily threatening to 'get a girlfriend' is a direct attack on the stability of the marriage. That is a type of bullying.
> 
> It is not bullying to tell your spouse that you accept their preference to end the physical part of the marriage and that you will get your needs met (thru paid sex) in a way that doesn't risk the stability of the marriage.
> 
> Just as your ex used the 'sexless marriages are common / normal'
> tactic with you, the statement that 'affairs are just as common / normal' fits in here.
> 
> The conversation goes like this: While cheating is a common reaction to a sexually broken marriage, I am not going to do that. I am however going to discretely get my needs met.
> 
> If your LD spouse attempts to shame or threaten (divorce) you over this, it is pretty clear who the bully is.
> 
> There is nothing remotely reasonable about a spouse simultaneously saying: I have no responsibility to meet your sexual needs and yet retain total authority over what you do with your body.


I'm glad you guys can identify the bully perspective in the situation.


----------



## TikiKeen

> There is nothing remotely reasonable about a spouse simultaneously saying: I have no responsibility to meet your sexual needs and yet retain total authority over what you do with your body.


This. Aside from the logical fallacies and serious cognitive dissonance some posters seem to have surrounding this subject, this is the dang truth.

"I refuse to honor cherishing you by maintaining a sexual relationship, but I also define 'fidelity' as only sexual, so tough sh!t for you" does. not. work. That's hostage-taking, not marriage.

I guarantee it's not just women who play the PA sex-control game; mine tried it once, and all it took to snap him back was the reminder that his ex f**ked every Tom, Di*k and Harry when he pulled that crap with her, and I would have no problem seeking fulfillment elsewhere, too, if that's how he defines "cherish". We ended up in MC within a month. I'd rather live out of my car and eat bugs than live with a sexually negligent and controlling spouse. 

If a spouse can't get it together to become healthy enough for themselves and for the being that is the marriage itself, why are they even there? Seems a little freeloading to me. JMO, of course.


----------



## c2500

Deejo said:


> I make no distinction between withholding sex and infidelity. Two sides of the same coin.
> One side simply gets all of the bad press and finger pointing.


Wow, this is a very profound observation. I never thought of it this way, but have to agree.


----------



## MEM2020

Remorseful,
I want to emphasize a couple points: I love my wife and wasn't going to leave her because her desire had gone missing. 

I would have let her leave me had she: Dug in on the sex issue and tried to demand my celibacy. 

I hope you are able to press a few points pretty hard with your wife: 
- Her attempts to shame you for having a strong sex drive were selfish and manipulative.
- Funny, but all that testosterone was a factor in producing a great life for your wife. 

I remarked to Mrs. MEM a few times that: You sure do like the ambition and emotional passion that my high T levels produce, a high sex drive is part of the 'package'. 

To be fair, I give my W high marks for coming to bed focused on pleasing even when she isn't feeling much lust. Selfless. Just as I try to be equally supportive by compromising on frequency. We found a fair middle ground that feels good for both of us. 



QUOTE=remorseful strayer;4894770]A valid point, mem. I did have that talk and did use high end call girls. That was unacceptable to her. 

We have been married a long time, and I love her. I don't need her, though, I earn a good salary and since that happened women seem shamelessly aggressive toward me.

She has many good qualities and was always an excellent wife and very sexual. By my observation in many respects she was going through the women's version of the mid life crisis.

When other ways to solve the issue failed, I thought I could cheat and not get caught. Problem solved. I kept he marriage and as long as my wife never found out, things would be okay. 

I am just here to say that it was a very stupid thing to do. 

I think had I packed and left, she may have come around on he own. She has now and things are vastly improve albeit tainted by both the affair and her period of no sexual desire.



Without a doubt. 

She does realize that now. That's a large part of why our reconciliation is working.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Perfectly stated. 


QUOTE=PHTlump;4873618]Not to Merriam, or Webster. Many implies a large, but indefinite, number.


You use a lack of rigorous statistical analysis as your basis for attacking the idea that many women behave in a certain way. In the same post, you then argue that many women behave in a certain way.

And you appear to do it without any sort of ironic self-awareness. For that, you deserve a hearty golf clap.[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020

Dvls,
This is exactly how I read the whole exchange. 

If you read FWs posts you will find a 'theme' which is simply this:
- Men do lots of bad things to their female partners 
- Women only do bad things in response to their male partners incompetence, insecurity or selfishness

For example, her thread asking if husbands would have sex with their wives even if it was obvious the wives found them unattractive. Zero interest in addressing the 1-1 correlation between a man having sex with a woman who finds him unattractive and that very same female staying in a marriage where she wants the perks of being 'loved and desired' but not the 
responsibility to either reciprocate or be brutally honest.



QUOTE=DvlsAdvc8;4870490]You specifically highlighted the uniqueness of your withholding scenario - your women friends only withheld due to bad sex - in response to someone else claiming it was a power issue. So what was the point of your reply if only to say "other women withhold for bad sex?" If you're not generalizing about why women withhold, then your statement is no counter to the post you intended to reject. We can infer then that you are saying "women don't withhold for power/malevolence, they withhold because they don't want bad sex"... or your reply becomes rather meaningless to the power/malevolence issue. No, your post was a clear counterpoint, not an additional reason a woman might withhold. If that wasn't the case, then your reply to me should have been acknowledging that there are a lot of reasons why women might withhold - including bad sex, low-drive, preoccupation, manipulation/power-plays, or just plain malevolence. <--- THAT is my problem with what you said in its context - it was a thinly veiled insult. Instead, you attacked men again, as insecure ("its telling").

I read your posts, thanks. Those marriages did end in divorce, but the women should never have withheld. They should have asked for a divorce the moment they deemed it appropriate to withhold (just as one ought to divorce before having an affair). At the point someone withholds, its now a crapshoot as to whether the other person responds with desired behavior (revealing its coercive nature) or resentment.[/QUOTE]


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Deejo said:


> I don't expect folks to get behind my thoughts on this. For me it's simple. It's a boundary.
> 
> Both are betrayal, abandonment, deception, obfuscation, manipulation and dishonest. Both are wrong.
> 
> The fact that a withholding spouse is exhonerated of any wrong-doing if the withheld decides to step out and is discovered, in my mind is the ultimate hypocrisy.
> 
> Are there better ways to handle the entire situation? Of course. But lets face it, people don't always make good choices.


I've always felt this way, I have a huge heart for the rejected and very little sympathy for the rejecting...not if the husband has been a good caring man, honest, faithful attentive to his wife's needs....(or the wife to her husband's needs)

Reading Racer's last couple posts ought to give us all pause to how much pain is in a sexless marriage... How he managed to stay with his wife....unfathomable to me...If I didn't get out of a situation like that, resentment would eat me alive, I'd be impossible to live with.. the temptation would be too strong...I WOULD FALL....and I don't consider myself a bad person ..., just honest in what I could and could NEVER handle in a marriage. Best to divorce... Life is too short.


----------



## MEM2020

SA,
Right there with you. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> I've always felt this way, I have a huge heart for the rejected and very little sympathy for the rejecting...not if the husband has been a good caring man, honest, faithful attentive to his wife's needs....(or the wife to her husband's needs)
> 
> Reading Racer's last couple posts ought to give us all pause to how much pain is in a sexless marriage... How he managed to stay with his wife....unfathomable to me...If I didn't get out of a situation like that, resentment would eat me alive, I'd be impossible to live with.. the temptation would be too strong...I WOULD FALL....and I don't consider myself a bad person ..., just honest in what I could and could NEVER handle in a marriage. Best to divorce... Life is too short.


----------



## Caribbean Man

TikiKeen said:


> *This. Aside from the logical fallacies and serious cognitive dissonance some posters seem to have surrounding this subject, this is the dang truth.
> 
> "I refuse to honor cherishing you by maintaining a sexual relationship, but I also define 'fidelity' as only sexual, so tough sh!t for you" does. not. work. That's hostage-taking, not marriage.*
> 
> I guarantee it's not just women who play the PA sex-control game; mine tried it once, and all it took to snap him back was the reminder that his ex f**ked every Tom, Di*k and Harry when he pulled that crap with her, and I would have no problem seeking fulfillment elsewhere, too, if that's how he defines "cherish". We ended up in MC within a month. I'd rather live out of my car and eat bugs than live with a sexually negligent and controlling spouse.
> 
> If a spouse can't get it together to become healthy enough for themselves and for the being that is the marriage itself, why are they even there? Seems a little freeloading to me. JMO, of course.


:iagree:

These threads are painful to read.
Every time I read a thread like this thread , images of the goradian knot comes to mind. Layers and layers of loops , hoops and intricacies that defy logic.
As hard and difficult it might seem ,I think that when a marriage has that type of dynamic, the only way out with your self esteem and sanity intact ,is the "_Alexandrian solution_."


----------



## remorseful strayer

MEM11363 said:


> Remorseful,
> I want to emphasize a couple points: I love my wife and wasn't going to leave her because her desire had gone missing.
> 
> I would have let her leave me had she: Dug in on the sex issue and tried to demand my celibacy.
> 
> I hope you are able to press a few points pretty hard with your wife:
> - Her attempts to shame you for having a strong sex drive were selfish and manipulative.
> - Funny, but all that testosterone was a factor in producing a great life for your wife.
> 
> I remarked to Mrs. MEM a few times that: You sure do like the ambition and emotional passion that my high T levels produce, a high sex drive is part of the 'package'.
> 
> To be fair, I give my W high marks for coming to bed focused on pleasing even when she isn't feeling much lust. Selfless. Just as I try to be equally supportive by compromising on frequency. We found a fair middle ground that feels good for both of us.


Hi mem: 

Thank you, Mem. I already figured that out. You seemed to have found a good solution and your wife is compromising. I hope my post didn't imply anything insulting to you or your wife. 

Low sexual desire/higher sexual desire marriage is a complex issue. 

My wife is now compromising, as am I, in the same way you and your wife do.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Mem...what are these "horrible things" you believe that I say only men do and not women? Please give me a list.

For instance, I am confused on what you brought up about my thread about asking men if they would be with a woman who wasn't into him. My hope was to hear that men would *not* do this (and overwhelmingly, that is what men said), and I stated many times that in my example *the woman was wrong and is a gold digger*. So how is that now twisted into MEN doing something horrible while women are only bad in response to men? I made that post because I KNOW men will not stand for that treatment, yet elsewhere on this board I had heard men saying that if she was hot enough, it wouldn't matter if she wasn't into him. I was actually defending a man's need to be desired for himself....how did you now make this something different?

And on this thread...my mention of women I knew when we were younger...I specifically said these women were ignorant of a better solution and yet...somehow now they were just evil? I also said I never assumed that these women were better lovers than the men they were talking about.

It is really difficult around here when everyone is already on a "side" of every issue, so when someone says something they really only hear the "side" they want to hear.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> somehow now they were just evil? I also said I never assumed that these women were better lovers than the men they were talking about.


Personally, I don't believe they're evil nor better lovers. I just think they're wrong and the purpose of telling it was more to counter punch than anything else; do we not all accept that there are 100s of reasons one might withhold? I think the entire notion of withholding sex - withholding affection - is poisonous. Now, I'm not talking about an occasional instance of declining sex because you're not into it or something he did put you in a bad mood. By "withholding", I think we're talking about a pattern of refusal to be intimate. Not having sex is rarely going to make your married sex life better. Most often, its going to cause things to get a lot worse.

IMO, such a pattern is divorce without paperwork. She's already checked out - either HER desire for him is gone, or she's apathetic to his want of intimacy.

So much of the men vs women debate is in search of a cause to place blame, but there is no single cause. Does being a lazy selfish lover justify withholding? IMO, no... it justifies divorce in the same manner that withholding doesn't justify cheating. It justifies divorce. There's 100 different reasons people withhold, but its always wrong. When its retaliatory or coercive, its down right malicious imo. Others are innocently apathetic, but still wrong.

I have a hard time believing that most women who withhold do so because their man is poor in bed and my opinion has nothing to do with any sensitivity to my performance. Sure, some might, but in my experience, sexual quality is so absurdly subjective... seemingly having more to do with her feelings for the man than the actual physical acts. Girls that are crazy about me have gone on and on about the sex even when I know I wasn't anything special. My ex was still "meh" about having sex even when I was hitting home runs. Barring extreme laziness and selfishness, I'm more inclined to believe a woman having bad sex, is more likely just not into the man anymore for a host of reasons... probably not even sexual reasons. And really, once a woman doesn't like you, its amazing how you're suddenly terrible at everything lol. Its the inverse of the flawless husband phenomenon we see in many women. I guess it depends how much weight you place in the old adage that a woman's emotional connection leads her to sex, while sex for a man leads him to emotional connection. 

On men being too sensitive to guide toward being better lovers... let me get this straight: Men are too sensitive to being corrected while simultaneously showing a total lack of sensitivity in bed by happily having short wam-bam-thank-you-mam sex that clearly didn't satisfy her? This doesn't jive to me. If he doesn't care what she got out of it, he's not sensitive to being corrected - he's just an @ss. If he's sensitive to his ability to pleasure her, then he's trying to pleasure her; to my thinking the only way she can go wrong is with obnoxiously negative feedback.


----------



## Racer

Mine was just an escalation over time. Perfectly reasonable stuff. 

Simple observation. Every woman has a “price” for admission. Sorry ladies, but true. We men have to make you feel ‘this or that way’ before we get the golden ticket. Like those little things that make you feel special and wonderful. Romantic gestures, thinking of you, sorts of stuff. After dating, it’s escalated. Words come out like “Really? I just wiped poo off a babies butt, the kitchen is filthy, I need to breast pump and you think that is going to turn me on?” We get trained to turn-off and turn-on stuff. Rules enter the bedroom like “not after midnight because it wipes me out the next day”. And on and on it starts piling.

During this, what was once a gesture like taking over the kitchen so you could sit and unwind, becomes a duty or chore. It’s no longer appreciated as a gift, just something that’s your job now; You get pissed when you can’t watch your show. So, what a gift is has a higher bar to leap over. And it escalates to resentments when I can no longer make that leap. 

Things like “I’ve always wanted to go to Florence” are said and disappointed that years pass and I’ve never taken you. It becomes a deeper sign and a ‘turn off’ that we just aren’t ‘giving’ like we used too as well as this perception that we are failing. Afterall my list of ‘duties’, which were gifts once mind you, is massive and I’m starting to drop some balls. You note those dropped balls and instead of picking up the slack gratefully, it’s seen as making up for my shortcomings (another turn-off). Every day I become less and less attractive because you are actively looking for gifts and tearing my image down in your head for where I’m failing to do some thing you decided I’m supposed to do.

Do you see how my cleaning skills become associated and attached to sex? You never question that they shouldn’t have a bearing on it or not. Sex is no longer an emotional response, it’s finding reasons I didn’t earn it or pay that price you are asking. I don’t believe she did it maliciously at the start... I think it has more to do with the levels she needed to feel ‘frisky’ and dumping it on my shoulders that I somehow control that. She is in control of her own emotions, but refuses to believe this because she doesn’t understand that I’m only a influence; yet only so far as how she interprets it all in her own head.

Me wanting a break too isn’t seen as “he’s having a hard day and I should cheer him up”. It’s seen as lazy oaf forcing her to do everything around the house. Perceptions; her control over her own damn emotions.


----------



## TikiKeen

If my guy does little around the house to show he's an equal partner there, why on Earth would I jump into bed and think he will be an equal partner there too? That's not right. It's about proportions.

And I guarantee that plenty of husbands have "an admission price" too; it's just not commonly stated as such. Not all do, I know, but plenty of men do. For instance, men exist who actually work or do hobbies obsessively, then expect sexual attention after having been emotionally absent. (Edited to complete the thought)...their price is that she will know what his expectations are and meet them without him having to make the effort to communicate. It's equivalent to women being touched-out from the kids and refusing to take a break/get a friend to help, then saying "it's all your fault you didn't read my mind and ask/do what I assumed you would do". No one should have to jump through hoops to make love and honor that wedding vow, but no one should assume it's theirs for the taking without giving in proportion as well.

Unspoken, unrealistic expectations su*k, and not in a good way, and unconditional romantic love has no place in marriage. I simply cannot love a human who would treat me like cr*p. I can love them from a distance though.


----------



## always_alone

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I hear you and appreciate what you said. Perhaps at some point we could all have a discussion about why a person would withhold sex? In counseling, it came out that my husband did it because he felt like I belittled him and wouldn't listen to him. He felt like I thought I was better than him and he felt like I regretted marrying him. All of which was true at that point.  So if I made him feel that way, would I be justified then in seeking sex from someone else because he wouldn't put out? What if we flip the genders and it's a wife whose husband barely looks at her while talking, favors video games/drinking/friends/work/tv instead of interacting with her. Is he justified in cheating because at 11:00 pm he (now) wants her (sex) and after being second fiddle she doesn't?


Exactly! Withholding is ever so often a byproduct of resentments that have built up over time. Why on earth would (s)he want to have sex with you if you think (s)he's boring, unattractive, lazy, stupid, controlling, rude, narcissistic? 

Yet so many people here complaining how awful it is to withhold refuse to accept any role whatsoever in the dynamic. Kudos to you for acknowledging yours straight up. 

I'm guessing that owning some of the responsibility is one key to saving and rebuilding the relationship. When my H was starting to withhold from me, I had to take a hard look at myself and that worked wonders.


----------



## always_alone

Deejo said:


> I make no distinction between withholding sex and infidelity. Two sides of the same coin.
> One side simply gets all of the bad press and finger pointing.


I think cheating is worse. Withholding is much less deliberate, usually creeps up, and is the result of a dynamic gone sour. The excuses are not usually outright lies in the same way as denying cheating is. They are more like diversions from facing painful truths or attempts to explain what one doesn't fully understand. If caught early, withholding is highly resolvable with good communication and caring.

Cheating, on the other hand, is straight up betrayal that adds yet another obstacle to working through the real problems of the relationship and destroys all trust.


----------



## Fozzy

always_alone said:


> I think cheating is worse. Withholding is much less deliberate, usually creeps up, and is the result of a dynamic gone sour. The excuses are not usually outright lies in the same way as denying cheating is. They are more like diversions from facing painful truths or attempts to explain what one doesn't fully understand. If caught early, withholding is highly resolvable with good communication and caring.
> 
> Cheating, on the other hand, is straight up betrayal that adds yet another obstacle to working through the real problems of the relationship and destroys all trust.


IMO, you and Deejo are both right in your own ways. Cheating is much more deliberate and requires some degree of malice. HOWEVER, i also think that the emotional damage caused by withholding can sometimes equal that caused by cheating.


----------



## always_alone

FrenchFry said:


> I'm sexually demanding but not complicated., not domestically or romantically demanding or complicated. My husband is domestically demanding and sexually complicated and it's a little hard to find advice sometimes on how to finesse our dynamic because it doesn't fit the "women need to be emotionally fufilled and romanced!!" and "men need sex to feel connected!!" boxes.


Agreed. All the boxes are much too confining. I sometimes wonder if anyone ever actually fits into them, or if they're just convenient stereotypes that we repeat so we can feel more like we know what's going on.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> Exactly! Withholding is ever so often a byproduct of resentments that have built up over time. Why on earth would (s)he want to have sex with you if you think (s)he's boring, unattractive, lazy, stupid, controlling, rude, narcissistic?
> 
> Yet so many people here complaining how awful it is to withhold refuse to accept any role whatsoever in the dynamic. Kudos to you for acknowledging yours straight up.


That may be true. However, in these cases of withholding, most (all?) of the time, the withholding spouse is not being honest and telling his/her spouse that the attraction is gone. He/she is lying and claiming to be too stressed, or too busy, or too tired, or too something for sex.

The typical withholding thread on these boards is not a case of one spouse justifiably withholding because of some abuse, while the other spouse lazily insists on being served with absolutely no effort on his/her part. It is the opposite. It is a case of one spouse being denied sex, working himself/herself into a frenzy by trying to eliminate all of the ridiculous excuses for being sexless, and ultimately coming here out of desperation.

These spouses would happily direct their energies in more productive directions if their withholding spouses would be honest enough to simply say, "You don't make enough money," or, "You're too fat." If the problem is being too fat, taking over all of the cooking will never solve the problem. And taking over the cooking, cleaning, laundry, and working full time will only make the problem worse, because it leaves no time for exercise. But we see that dynamic time and again.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> I think cheating is worse. Withholding is much less deliberate, usually creeps up, and is the result of a dynamic gone sour. The excuses are not usually outright lies in the same way as denying cheating is. They are more like diversions from facing painful truths or attempts to explain what one doesn't fully understand. If caught early, withholding is highly resolvable with good communication and caring.
> 
> Cheating, on the other hand, is straight up betrayal that adds yet another obstacle to working through the real problems of the relationship and destroys all trust.


All of your observations about withholding apply equally to cheating. I've read numerous threads on the Coping With Infidelity board and I've never seen a case where the disloyal spouse goes to bed completely faithful and wakes up the next morning and makes a conscious decision to become unfaithful. That's not the way affairs work. They sneak up on people. Behavior that's simply playful becomes just slightly inappropriate. Then, it becomes slightly more inappropriate. Next, two people are a "work couple" with no romantic ties. Each step is a small one in the direction of becoming a little more inappropriate. Rationalizations are invented for each and every step that can convince most people that this isn't an affair. It's not like they're having sex. They're just friends. Eventually, the final small step is getting naked.

Also equivalent, withholding may start as a series of legitimate excuses for avoiding sex establishing a precedent. But, just as a cheater eventually has to realize that having sex with another person is bad, a withholder eventually realizes that the frequency of sex is ridiculous. At that point, for both parties, the actions become conscious decisions to mistreat their spouses.


----------



## always_alone

Fozzy said:


> HOWEVER, i also think that the emotional damage caused by withholding can sometimes equal that caused by cheating.


Sometimes people get into these patterns of relating that bring out their worst. I've seen many couples fall into this trap. All they end up doing is piling resentment upon resentment until the relationship collapses. Even then they will sometimes stick around to destroy each other.

All of which is just a really long-winded way of agreeing that there are many ways to kill a relationship.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> The typical withholding thread on these boards is not a case of one spouse justifiably withholding because of some abuse, while the other spouse lazily insists on being served with absolutely no effort on his/her part. It is the opposite. It is a case of one spouse being denied sex, working himself/herself into a frenzy by trying to eliminate all of the ridiculous excuses for being sexless, and ultimately coming here out of desperation.
> 
> These spouses would happily direct their energies in more productive directions if their withholding spouses would be honest enough to simply say, "You don't make enough money," or, "You're too fat."


But this is exactly what's at issue isn't it? All you're doing is reiterating the blamelessness of the witholdee. I don't buy it, especially when some of the more vocal ones have made it clear that they had very little respect or love for their witholder -- long before sexlessness became an issue.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to suggest that the witholdee is the one to blame. Far from it. Sometimes the witholder is just being an a$$ and needs to shape up. But to assume the witholdee is utterly blameless (as some have done on this thread) is equally misguided, IMHO.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> All of your observations about withholding apply equally to cheating.


The main difference as I see it is that the cheater is dragging a third party into the relationship turmoil, while the witholder is still working within the original parameters. They may be doing a poor job of it, they may be unwilling to fully face themselves or work through tough and hurtful conversations, but they're still within the relationship, not seeking solace or escape. 

Both may be rationalizing their behaviour, but the witholder is trying to find a way to stay (however badly), while the cheater is already out the door, and pretending not to be.


----------



## Fozzy

I don't think PHT is holding the witholdee blameless. I think what he's trying to get at is that many witholdees may be at some fault for causing the lack of sex, but until the withholder hits them with a clue-bat they might not be able to properly address their own behavior. Shutting down the intimacy and letting your partner twist in the wind without being honest and upfront about WHY you're doing it hurts both parties.


----------



## cookingirl78

Sex should always be about love and making a connection. It should never be used as a weapon. You might get revenge, but you'll only cause long-term damage for both of you.


----------



## MEM2020

French,
I smiled reading this because sometimes a sledgehammer is the only tool for the job. The approach below should be the 'textbook' strategy for responding to the specific issue that you had.

Withholding is fine if: 
- It is treated as a 'measure of last resort'
- You are brutally honest about why
- Your partner is capable of addressing the issue if they want to 
- You would be ok with them doing the same thing to you if the situation was reversed 
- You are enforcing a boundary not being manipulative




[/B]


FrenchFry said:


> Straight up, I have a hard time talking to you Dvls, not because of gender-warring but because you have a tendency to have a very black-and white view of the world that fits your experiences and discount what doesn't fit in it for whatever reason. Not saying I don't, but trying to talk to you feels like you coming into my world and telling me black is white. It's hard.
> 
> But I'll try any way, why not.
> 
> 
> 
> My posts are still on the board if you want to look them up, but this pretty much what I experienced. Not quite "wham-bam" sex, but my husband was either passive-aggressively declining any kind of sex that wasn't "let me lay here and you blow me" or straight up saying "no, I don't want to do x/no, don't try and correct me on how we should have sex," and actively getting pissed when I tried to say, move his hand gently somewhere else or nicely/sexily say "hey, let's do this." He rolled over one time, took off and took a shower because I dared to say "mm, I love softer touches."
> 
> It was, straight up, _bullsh!t_. There literally was no way that I could tell him I was getting seriously unhappy in bed without him taking it the worst way possible. I was still in love with him (still am) and sat back, asked him for months what I could do better sexually for him so that our former reciprocity came back and for months I got nothing in return or had to take unfulfilling sex over and over. I was getting blue-balled 5 days a week.
> 
> He was being an ass, absolutely. What his circumstances happened to be is he had a huge amount of outside stress on his mind, couldn't take it out on the people he wanted to and took it out on me instead in multiple ways, including sexually. The only way that it got through his head that I was taking steps to be done with this was not by saying/doing nice things, by having more sex, keeping the house immaculate, changing my hair/body up _all things I did btw_ but by getting his attention by saying "no, I don't want to have sex with you right now, you are not making me happy in bed and I can't stand it anymore." That eventually snapped him out of his temporary self-centeredness and I haven't had to say a word since. He says to me now when he has a lot on his mind, and I'm happy to be giving for a while while he sorts his stuff out...but he makes up for it in spades.
> 
> I'm not most or all women, this is just my story, but I also don't think I'm that unique to where my story can be discounted as a random fluke. Mine was a short time because I've never been shy about the fact that I will walk out, but I understand that there are people in different circumstances/with different mindsets that make it hard for them to just walk away instead of suffer.
> 
> I never recommend withholding, like most of the former cheaters on here never recommend cheating as a solution to marital issues. But in my case it worked, just like cheating sometimes brings to light all of the other issues that need to be worked out.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> But this is exactly what's at issue isn't it? All you're doing is reiterating the blamelessness of the witholdee. I don't buy it, especially when some of the more vocal ones have made it clear that they had very little respect or love for their witholder -- long before sexlessness became an issue.


I'm not saying that the loyal spouse is blameless for the state of the marriage, that allowed the disloyal spouse to rationalize withholding sex. I'm saying that the loyal spouse must be held blameless for not working to fix things that he/she doesn't know is a problem. Especially, as is often the case, where the withholding spouse continually obfuscates the real reasons for withholding.

If the withholding spouse insists that doing the dishes is the activity that is ruining their sex life, we have to excuse the loyal spouse for focusing on the dishes. Now, I agree that, in practical terms, the withholding spouse will rarely state the blunt truth about why he/she is withholding. So, the loyal spouse must refuse to believe any statements on the subject and work to identify the actual reasons, such as an affair, hormonal imbalances, or lack of attraction.

But condemning the loyal spouse for believing his/her spouse who has claimed, hundreds of times, that the doing the dishes is the real issue, seems too arrogant and dismissive. When I got married, I was never given the manual that stated, _"If your wife ever withholds sex, don't ever ask her about it because she will lie. And if you do ask her about it, just assume that she's lying. Because she is. Take the following steps, ultimately involving a lack of attraction, in order to rectify the situation."_ If that manual was given out, then I would agree that I completely would deserve any scorn for not fixing my sexually unsatisfactory marriage long before I did.


----------



## Caribbean Man

cookingirl78 said:


> *Sex should always be about love and making a connection. It should never be used as a weapon. *You might get revenge, but you'll only cause long-term damage for both of you.


:iagree:

Yes. 
And that type of dynamic in a relationship is really about power and the abuse of a power differential in the relationship.

" _No problem can be solved using the same level of energy that created it.._"
- Albert Einstein



The justifications for withholding sex can be as varied as the justifications for cheating, but the root cause of both are the same.
Selfishness.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> The main difference as I see it is that the cheater is dragging a third party into the relationship turmoil, while the witholder is still working within the original parameters. They may be doing a poor job of it, they may be unwilling to fully face themselves or work through tough and hurtful conversations, but they're still within the relationship, not seeking solace or escape.


The main similarity is that the disloyal spouse has turned his/her attention away from his/her spouse. Telling a person whose spouse refuses to have sex that he/she should be thankful that his/her spouse hasn't turned to another seems, again, dismissive. At this point, we're back to playing the game we played earlier in the thread. Is an affair with an infertile partner better than an affair with a fertile partner, due to pregnancy concerns?



> Both may be rationalizing their behaviour, but the witholder is trying to find a way to stay (however badly), while the cheater is already out the door, and pretending not to be.


I don't know about that. I might be able to forgive my wife for leaving me and letting me chart my own course for future relationships more readily than I could for her trying to unilaterally force me into a celibate life as her butler.


----------



## always_alone

Fozzy said:


> I don't think PHT is holding the witholdee blameless. I think what he's trying to get at is that many witholdees may be at some fault for causing the lack of sex, but until the withholder hits them with a clue-bat they might not be able to properly address their own behavior. Shutting down the intimacy and letting your partner twist in the wind without being honest and upfront about WHY you're doing it hurts both parties.


If withholding sex isn't a clue bat, them what is?

My sense is that the wiholdeess often lack insight into why they don't want sex. They are likely being as clear as they can on the matter. 

Which is not to justify the behaviour, but to suggest that they aren't necessarily malicious and controlling a$$holes, and are often doing the best they can with what they've got.


----------



## always_alone

PHTlump said:


> Especially, as is often the case, where the withholding spouse continually obfuscates the real reasons for withholding.
> 
> If the withholding spouse insists that doing the dishes is the activity that is ruining their sex life, we have to excuse the loyal spouse for focusing on the dishes. Now, I agree that, in practical terms, the withholding spouse will rarely state the blunt truth about why he/she is withholding. So, the loyal spouse must refuse to believe any statements on the subject and work to identify the actual reasons, such as an affair, hormonal imbalances, or lack of attraction.
> 
> But condemning the loyal spouse for believing his/her spouse who has claimed, hundreds of times, that the doing the dishes is the real issue, seems too arrogant and dismissive. When I got married, I was never given the manual that stated, _"If your wife ever withholds sex, don't ever ask her about it because she will lie. And if you do ask her about it, just assume that she's lying. Because she is. Take the following steps, ultimately involving a lack of attraction, in order to rectify the situation."_ If that manual was given out, then I would agree that I completely would deserve any scorn for not fixing my sexually unsatisfactory marriage long before I did.


No scorn here for you or anyone else who has a withholding spouse. I didn't join the discussion to heap blame or scorn on anyone, certainly not those who are doing everything in their power to fix their relationships. My only goal was to counter some of the blame and scorn heaped on those who withold.

Even here you are assuming that the witholding spouse is deliberately lying and obfuscating, and revelling in their power to manipulate their partner into becoming a celibate butler. Now maybe it has happened that way some times, as their are some pretty mean and selfish people out there. But I highly doubt it's the norm --or even all that common. 

I also think that there is good practical value in refraining from seeing the witholder as evil incarnate. Certainly one of the reasons my SO stopped wanting sex with me was because he felt as though I thought the worst of him.


----------



## ocotillo

I think that if we indulge in the cause and effect exercise, we're going to end up with a long series of causes and effects.

With some things, like infidelity for example, we simply a draw in the sand and say that no cause really justifies it.


----------



## Fozzy

always_alone said:


> *If withholding sex isn't a clue bat, them what is?*My sense is that the wiholdeess often lack insight into why they don't want sex. They are likely being as clear as they can on the matter.
> 
> Which is not to justify the behaviour, but to suggest that they aren't necessarily malicious and controlling a$$holes, and are often doing the best they can with what they've got.


I would suggest that telling your partner what it is about their behavior, appearance, etc that's preventing the sex from happening is a better clue bat.

Denying sex without telling your partner what the issue is may be enough of a clue to tell them there's a problem but it's only going to prompt them to start wasting their efforts fixing things that aren't already broken, instead of fixing things that are.


----------



## MEM2020

Remorseful,
No offense taken. 




remorseful strayer said:


> Hi mem:
> 
> Thank you, Mem. I already figured that out. You seemed to have found a good solution and your wife is compromising. I hope my post didn't imply anything insulting to you or your wife.
> 
> Low sexual desire/higher sexual desire marriage is a complex issue.
> 
> My wife is now compromising, as am I, in the same way you and your wife do.


----------



## MEM2020

PHT,
It seems that LD folks are 'often' more uncomfortable talking about sex and sexually related topics. So when asked a 'how can we make this better', they start listing stuff they 'want' that have nothing to do with desire. I am not sure that I want to label this as 'lying' as it feels more like avoidance. 

There is a way to 'structure' a conversation to encourage / press for more honesty but it requires the belief that a carefully scripted discussion can help, and the ability to follow a script with branch points based on the responses you get. 

The simplest step is to determine whether the issue includes a lack of 'desire to please'. Take sex out of the equation by asking for a non sexual back massage. Very few folks here are even willing to ask that and I believe that the reason is they are fairly confident even that type request will be rejected. To me, that gives you a starting point which is: How to get my spouse to make me and my marital needs a hgh priority. And 'why' doesn't my spouse get pleasure from doing something nice for me? 





PHTlump said:


> I'm not saying that the loyal spouse is blameless for the state of the marriage, that allowed the disloyal spouse to rationalize withholding sex. I'm saying that the loyal spouse must be held blameless for not working to fix things that he/she doesn't know is a problem. Especially, as is often the case, where the withholding spouse continually obfuscates the real reasons for withholding.
> 
> If the withholding spouse insists that doing the dishes is the activity that is ruining their sex life, we have to excuse the loyal spouse for focusing on the dishes. Now, I agree that, in practical terms, the withholding spouse will rarely state the blunt truth about why he/she is withholding. So, the loyal spouse must refuse to believe any statements on the subject and work to identify the actual reasons, such as an affair, hormonal imbalances, or lack of attraction.
> 
> But condemning the loyal spouse for believing his/her spouse who has claimed, hundreds of times, that the doing the dishes is the real issue, seems too arrogant and dismissive. When I got married, I was never given the manual that stated, _"If your wife ever withholds sex, don't ever ask her about it because she will lie. And if you do ask her about it, just assume that she's lying. Because she is. Take the following steps, ultimately involving a lack of attraction, in order to rectify the situation."_ If that manual was given out, then I would agree that I completely would deserve any scorn for not fixing my sexually unsatisfactory marriage long before I did.


----------



## PHTlump

always_alone said:


> No scorn here for you or anyone else who has a withholding spouse.


Fair enough. My post was worded poorly.



> Even here you are assuming that the witholding spouse is deliberately lying and obfuscating, and revelling in their power to manipulate their partner into becoming a celibate butler. Now maybe it has happened that way some times, as their are some pretty mean and selfish people out there. But I highly doubt it's the norm --or even all that common.
> 
> I also think that there is good practical value in refraining from seeing the witholder as evil incarnate. Certainly one of the reasons my SO stopped wanting sex with me was because he felt as though I thought the worst of him.


I agree that withholding spouses aren't necessarily terrible people. I frequently say that good people do bad things, regardless of whether we're discussing withholding, cheating, abuse, or whatever.

But I do think that, at some point, withholding does become a conscious choice. I think withholding usually develops like some affairs do. Just as an affair is something that starts small and builds, the final act of getting naked is a conscious choice to betray one's spouse that can't be rationalized away. Similarly, I acknowledge that some withholders may truly believe that doing the dishes is the issue that precludes sex. However, once the loyal spouse removes all of the excuses, and the lack of sex has gone on for months, or more, the withholder has to recognize that it's not about the dishes, or the laundry, or the kids, or whatever else. At that point, withholding becomes a conscious choice to exploit one's spouse and violate one's marriage vows for a sexual marriage.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

FrenchFry said:


> Straight up, I have a hard time talking to you Dvls, not because of gender-warring but because you have a tendency to have a very black-and white view of the world that fits your experiences and discount what doesn't fit in it for whatever reason. Not saying I don't, but trying to talk to you feels like you coming into my world and telling me black is white. It's hard.


We all speak from our own experience and those who have related their experiences to us. All of FW's withholding friends' hubbies were bad in bed by their accounts. In conversations I've had, "bad in bed" is probably the rarest thing I've heard in regards to the reasons there's little to no sex being had. My ex was withholding for the most part of 6 or 7 years, you can imagine I've had this conversation a lot! Given, I've heard more sexless stories from men than women (men surely being unlikely to admit to anyone that their wife thinks they're bad in bed) but its also that "the sex sucks" just doesn't fit well with my overall understanding of women. To the contrary, my experience is more of women being very reluctant to criticize someone in bed being less focused on physical elements of sex and more so happy to just have the closeness that sex entails. I mean, when only about half the women I know are actually gung-ho about sex and the other half is seemingly low drive (a full third of which could probably go extended periods without sex and not even notice), I find it counter-intuitive that vast numbers of married women would be willing to put their relationships in peril over sexual interests most don't bother asserting much in the first place. The very fact that we've had discussions over the importance (or lack thereof) that a man gives a woman an orgasm for example, provides me some insight. You'll be hard pressed to find a man content with not having an orgasm... yet its common place for women to be fine without having one; discussions of it usually go the route of criticizing men for expecting her to orgasm or trying too hard. More than half of my married friend's wives would prefer a massage to having sex. Many of those would be more pleased by his doing the laundry than having sex with her. These are running jokes among people I know... and the women are always like "I'm dead serious."

Far to much signal interference for me to heavily lean toward "bad sex" as a prominent reason for withholding. That's just my opinion formed from perceptions, stories and intuition... its not like I've polled.



FrenchFry said:


> My posts are still on the board if you want to look them up, but this pretty much what I experienced.


I'm sorry you've been through that and by no means am I claiming that no women withhold out of sexual dissatisfaction with their partners.



FrenchFry said:


> "no, I don't want to have sex with you right now, you are not making me happy in bed and I can't stand it anymore." That eventually snapped him out of his temporary self-centeredness and I haven't had to say a word since.


Out of curiosity how long did this go on? Expanding my thinking a bit, I'm not sure what you've done is what I would consider the standard withholding story. What you did was say: "You want sex that is good for you, I want sex that is good for me." Not so much withholding as setting the terms of the exchange. Any time he wants to get laid, all he has to do is balance the exchange. In other words, you're not withholding... its within his power to get laid. Its hard to even say he was bad in bed... he wasn't even trying.

The traditional case does not have such a simple solution on his part. In fact, generally speaking, he's not even aware of why there's no more sex. She just never wants it and if he challenges her lack of desire - she wants it even less; now there is added pressure to have sex she's not actually interested in. Other times the withholder will give a ton of nonsexual reasons, and as the seeker addresses these reasons and still faces withholding, they come to discover those reasons were little more than excuses. Many people I've heard from chased their own tails like this for YEARS. In fact, its difficult to really ascertain why the withholding is going on, and THIS is why its so damaging to the one seeking sex.

I mean, if a woman tells a man who is too lazy to do oral "Hey, we'll have all kinds of crazy sex if you'd just go down on me." And he doesn't go down on her, she can't rightly be said to be withholding... the choice is his. Victims of withholding of the nature I'm referring to, and I think the one people struggle with, often for extended periods, don't have a choice. They can discern no rhyme or reason to it and can't get what they want of their own will.

Does that make sense? So... perhaps there is withholding, and then there is withholding. 

Trust me, I'm the last person to think in black and white. My entire world is gray.


----------



## MEM2020

*Those painful moments of self awareness*

PHT,
I still remember our honeymoon very well. It was good, and it could have, would have been great if I hadn't let fear cause me to choose 'avoidance' over intimacy. 

By the time we left on our honeymoon my W had shown herself to be the more adventurous of the two of us in and out of bed. Loved that about her, still do. And up until that moment I had always been glad to try anything she suggested. 

A couple days into our honeymoon she asks me what my sexual fantasies are. I remember the surge of fear, the thought that she would find my internal triggers dark or disturbing. I can still see the look of disappointment on her face as I denied having any fantasies. 

Luckily my W is determined and skillful. Eventually she got into my head. 

Avoidance based on fear is powerful. Which is why the 'refused' tend to avoid the truth staring them in the face. I get that resentment can disrupt a sex life, but when you do what you are asked and nothing changes, there is a desire to avoid the scary thought that maybe desire can't be ignited so easily. That chore play isn't really a turn on, at best it removes the obstacle of anger/resentment. 




PHTlump said:


> Fair enough. My post was worded poorly.
> 
> 
> I agree that withholding spouses aren't necessarily terrible people. I frequently say that good people do bad things, regardless of whether we're discussing withholding, cheating, abuse, or whatever.
> 
> But I do think that, at some point, withholding does become a conscious choice. I think withholding usually develops like some affairs do. Just as an affair is something that starts small and builds, the final act of getting naked is a conscious choice to betray one's spouse that can't be rationalized away. Similarly, I acknowledge that some withholders may truly believe that doing the dishes is the issue that precludes sex. However, once the loyal spouse removes all of the excuses, and the lack of sex has gone on for months, or more, the withholder has to recognize that it's not about the dishes, or the laundry, or the kids, or whatever else. At that point, withholding becomes a conscious choice to exploit one's spouse and violate one's marriage vows for a sexual marriage.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> If withholding sex isn't a clue bat, them what is?


I possibly see a tendency, more common to men, to only register direct complaints... or perhaps to compartmentalize issues. An issue in one area does not extend so much to another area. So withholding sex is a complaint that sex with their spouse isn't worth having... not so much a protest against another issue.

Perhaps this is a relative of the tendency, more common to women, to bring up a slew of past issues in a fight. Its all one big thing to women, and isolated things to men.


----------



## Caribbean Man

FrenchFry said:


> *My circle of GFs are more of the "high five I got LAAAAID" variety than the "I avoided sex high five!!" variety and get just as angry/frustrated when they can't have sex. .*


This^^^ is more or less the same attitude among the circle of women I hang out with.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Caribbean Man said:


> This^^^ is more or less the same attitude among the circle of women I hang out with.


Funny... this is the attitude among virtually all the single women I know, but almost none of the married women I know (caveat - often as told by their husbands). To hear some of the husbands tell it, their wives are damn near bothered to have sex.


----------



## Fozzy

Again and again and again...it all comes back to communicating. You can't just assume that your spouse is a mindreader and knows why you aren't up for sex any more.

Can't tell you the number of times I've tried to get my wife to tell me what the core issue is, and it's been met with the standard "I just wish you'd help me more around the house", etc. Taken care of that issue, and we've recently graduated to "I just don't know".

Maybe it's a matter of self awareness? Maybe some women AND men are just not adept at figuring out what makes themselves tick, so they're not able to communicate that to their spouse, and that's where the BS comes in?


----------



## Deejo

I posted a long time ago of a story that came to me right from the mouth of a divorced female friend.

She was out with her besties. Topic turned to sex. And then specifically, the hoops they would make their husbands jump through to get it. "Throwing them a bone for good behavior," was the phrase she used.

She was utterly appalled, as in her marriage, she was the one getting shut down. Her husband was addicted to porn, and preferred it, over her.


----------



## Deejo

Fozzy said:


> Can't tell you the number of times I've tried to get my wife to tell me what the core issue is, and it's been met with the standard "I just wish you'd help me more around the house", etc. Taken care of that issue, and we've recently graduated to "I just don't know".
> 
> Maybe it's a matter of self awareness? Maybe some women AND men are just not adept at figuring out what makes themselves tick, so they're not able to communicate that to their spouse, and that's where the BS comes in?


The "I don't know." is rampant. And infuriating. It's lazy. But I do believe you are right it is absolutely about self-awareness.

There comes a point where it's pointless to even ask the question. I forged my own answer. It's the truth, whether they are willing to give voice to it or not ... regardless whether it's a man or a woman.

Its' not that they don't want sex. It's that they don't want sex with YOU.

Coming to terms with that fact is huge in deciding how you want to deal with it.


----------



## Fozzy

Deejo said:


> The "I don't know." is rampant. And infuriating. It's lazy. But I do believe you are right it is absolutely about self-awareness.
> 
> There comes a point where it's pointless to even ask the question. I forged my own answer. It's the truth, whether they are willing to give voice to it or not ... regardless whether it's a man or a woman.
> 
> Its' not that they don't want sex. It's that they don't want sex with YOU.
> 
> Coming to terms with that fact is huge in deciding how you want to deal with it.


Depressing, but I've pretty much arrived at the same conclusion.


----------



## marshmallow

Wow. Maybe you should get some bloodwork done to see if your diminished sex drive is health related. It certainly isn't something you should be bragging about, at the very least.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Deejo said:


> Its' not that they don't want sex. It's that they don't want sex with YOU.


That was my single biggest takeaway and until I figured out why that was, nothing changed.


----------



## Racer

Fozzy said:


> Can't tell you the number of times I've tried to get my wife to tell me what the core issue is, and it's been met with the standard "I just wish you'd help me more around the house", etc. Taken care of that issue, and we've recently graduated to "I just don't know".


Been there, done that. But instead of “I don’t know.” she just evolved the original.. Yes, you cleaned the kitchen, but look at all that unfolded laundry... and on and on. Then ‘health’ things... not just headaches, but bloated, gassy, spotting, sore back, infections, menopause (at 30.. Right), tired, she even looked up stuff on webMD and claimed that she probably has it. Then shifting to “that’s all you think about!, That’s all I’m worth to you!, You have a problem and probably an addiction to sex (attached to the “I know you watch porn regularly” shaming)”... She even went so far as to tell me I’m a bad kisser, my thingy is too small, I lack any technique, my breath stinks, I smell, I’m fat, she’s repulsed by me, I’m selfish, she can’t stand the smell of cum, calling me a loser, a nerd, a wimp, etc. to rip down any remaining self-confidence I might have. She’s threatened to call the cops for attempting to “rape her” (touching her while she’s drunk or asleep). She’s insinuated that she’s scared my “problem” might lead me to molest our daughter... Horrible nasty person. I hate writing out the sh!t I tolerated; only internet strangers know... I can't tell my friends how ashamed I am over all this. 

Anything and everything to make it not her fault. No blow too low. This is my initiation into a what a sexual relationship is... it is all I have experienced. I know better, but that is the fantasy... My reality was much different. Mine is the truly ugly side of sexless marriage. 

Also, grain of salt; It took a decade to evolve to that level of abuse. The boiling frog experiment. I never jumped out of that pot.

There's a reason I'm messed up, I don't talk about sex much, I stay away from SIM sections here. And there's a reason I can easily go soft with her where sexual thoughts bring both pleasure and a lot of pain and self-loathing. You don't walk away from this level of intentional destruction easily. Even now, I'm gonna have to walk away from this board for awhile to get out of this funk just thinking about all this always brings... 



> Maybe it's a matter of self awareness? Maybe some women AND men are just not adept at figuring out what makes themselves tick, so they're not able to communicate that to their spouse, and that's where the BS comes in?


Yep.... She was too busy finding reasons I was to blame than ever looking inward. Everything I tried or changed didn't work... so she'd find some new low to blame all this on me.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Deejo said:


> Its' not that they don't want sex. It's that they don't want sex with YOU.


Not necessarily. I know more than one woman who legitimately doesn't care about sex either way and can think of a number of things they'd rather be doing. One of them even said "sleep." lol

In MC, my ex said her withholding wasn't because she lost interest in ME. She just didn't have much drive and all the excuses and runaround I was told were really her search for a reason. So when she said, "help more with the kids", it was really "I don't know why I don't feel like it. Maybe helping more with the kids will make me feel better."

Not asexual, but sex is way down the list of priorities.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

Racer said:


> Been there, done that. But instead of “I don’t know.” she just evolved the original.. Yes, you cleaned the kitchen, but look at all that unfolded laundry... and on and on. Then ‘health’ things... not just headaches, but bloated, gassy, spotting, sore back, infections, menopause (at 30.. Right), tired, she even looked up stuff on webMD and claimed that she probably has it. Then shifting to “that’s all you think about!, That’s all I’m worth to you!, You have a problem and probably an addiction to sex (attached to the “I know you watch porn regularly” shaming)”... She even went so far as to tell me I’m a bad kisser, my thingy is too small, I lack any technique, my breath stinks, I smell, I’m fat, she’s repulsed by me, I’m selfish, she can’t stand the smell of cum, calling me a loser, a nerd, a wimp, etc. to rip down any remaining self-confidence I might have. She’s threatened to call the cops for attempting to “rape her” (touching her while she’s drunk or asleep). She’s insinuated that she’s scared my “problem” might lead me to molest our daughter... Horrible nasty person. I hate writing out the sh!t I tolerated; only internet strangers know... I can't tell my friends how ashamed I am over all this.
> 
> Anything and everything to make it not her fault. No blow too low. This is my initiation into a what a sexual relationship is... it is all I have experienced. I know better, but that is the fantasy... My reality was much different. Mine is the truly ugly side of sexless marriage.
> 
> Also, grain of salt; It took a decade to evolve to that level of abuse. The boiling frog experiment. I never jumped out of that pot.
> 
> There's a reason I'm messed up, I don't talk about sex much, I stay away from SIM sections here. And there's a reason I can easily go soft with her where sexual thoughts bring both pleasure and a lot of pain and self-loathing. You don't walk away from this level of intentional destruction easily. Even now, I'm gonna have to walk away from this board for awhile to get out of this funk just thinking about all this always brings...
> 
> 
> Yep.... She was too busy finding reasons I was to blame than ever looking inward. Everything I tried or changed didn't work... so she'd find some new low to blame all this on me.


May I gently ask if this relationship is in anyway beneficial to you anymore? I just want to give you a giant hug and take you out for a beer.


----------



## Deejo

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> Not necessarily. I know more than one woman who legitimately doesn't care about sex either way and can think of a number of things they'd rather be doing. One of them even said "sleep." lol
> 
> In MC, my ex said her withholding wasn't because she lost interest in ME. She just didn't have much drive and all the excuses and runaround I was told were really her search for a reason. So when she said, "help more with the kids", it was really "I don't know why I don't feel like it. Maybe helping more with the kids will make me feel better."
> 
> Not asexual, but sex is way down the list of priorities.


I just got to the point, where "I don't know ..." wasn't acceptable. The answer I came up with enabled me to see things more clearly and respond more appropriately.

I got angry. Not pitch a fit angry, shut down and freeze her out, and call her on everything she did and pulled that I didn't like, angry. 

Literally changed our marriage dynamic overnight, no joke, and by no means for the better in terms of the marriage itself. But ... it did bring the entire dysfunctional saga to a resolution.


----------



## treyvion

Therealbrighteyes said:


> That was my single biggest takeaway and until I figured out why that was, nothing changed.


Why was it in your situation?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

treyvion said:


> Why was it in your situation?


Post 172 and 177. I don't want to re-hash it.


----------



## MEM2020

Dvl,
You totally 'nailed' the sex in marriage thing for a certain type of man in an earlier post. First the 'profile', and then a response to your previous post:

The 'type':
- Handsome, fit and well groomed 
- Successful at work
- Engineer (electrical?)
- Emotionally even keeled unless seriously provoked (low affect)
- Good at 'intellectual' conflict, strong analytical and verbal skills 
- Strongly prefers to succeed via performance/results, has a natural aversion to manipulation and dirty politics 
- Honest, fairly literal - his default assumption is that you are telling him the truth (not gullible, he knows when someone has an obvious conflict (e.g. A salesperson) of interest 
- Likes stability
- Knows his way around a female body and is a physically competent lover
- Is uncomfortable (due to strong cultural conditioning) being physically aggressive with a lover. 
- Believes that physically/emotionally dominant behavior is typically the purview of bullies and low life's. And that sexually dominant behavior is adjacent to rape. 

Has been successful applying the (non sexual part of the) template above to his career. 

------
Many men see their sex life as a big part of their marital 'report card'. When it starts to go bad, they apply the same strategies they have consistently used at 'work': 
- Ask for constructive feedback 
- Take it to heart and work hard to 'address' the feedback by being helpful, nicer etc. even when you are puzzled by the requests because you have always done at least your fair share, your spouse has always conveyed that you are a kind, loving and helpful partner etc. 

Many wives perceive this as 'deferent' behavior. It is a huge turn off. Once you traverse this path, your physical attractiveness, income and your 'kiss, touch, lick, thrust skills' become irrelevant because the woman does not want to be in bed with you. Compounding the 'deference' is this dynamic where your spouse starts to believe that you will accept and act on what they tell you even when their statements and subsequent actions are 180 degrees out of alignment. This encourages a mindset of 'what I say' matters more than 'what I do'. 

Other common types of deference are:
- Accepting a high rate of sexual rejection 
- Frequently initiating despite a high rate of rejection 
- Permitting your spouse to play avoidance and denial games as to why they are rejecting you
- Actively buying into their manipulation by taking on an increasingly disproportionate marital workload in the hope you will get scraps
- Allowing them to flirt and forget/fall asleep without even acknowledging the bad behavior 
- Tolerating being sexually teased and then rejected (this is beyond deference and is enabling a parasitic transfer of self esteem from the HD to the LD

The Dictionary definition really brings home the turnoff factor in 'deference': 

Deference: humble submission/respect
--------
In a committed relationship there are plenty of non-combative ways to address a boundary pushing partner, but they all require the same foundation:
- A willingness to convey and enforce your boundaries even if that means the relationship ends 
- A steady escalation of consequences - not discussion - consequences when you are being deprioritized 
- Initiating playful dominance games - both emotional and physical because this is the least destructive way to demonstrate your strength. And seeing, feeling that strength is exactly what the boundary pusher craves 



QUOTE=DvlsAdvc8;4938506]We all speak from our own experience and those who have related their experiences to us. All of FW's withholding friends' hubbies were bad in bed by their accounts. In conversations I've had, "bad in bed" is probably the rarest thing I've heard in regards to the reasons there's little to no sex being had. My ex was withholding for the most part of 6 or 7 years, you can imagine I've had this conversation a lot! Given, I've heard more sexless stories from men than women (men surely being unlikely to admit to anyone that their wife thinks they're bad in bed) but its also that "the sex sucks" just doesn't fit well with my overall understanding of women. To the contrary, my experience is more of women being very reluctant to criticize someone in bed being less focused on physical elements of sex and more so happy to just have the closeness that sex entails. I mean, when only about half the women I know are actually gung-ho about sex and the other half is seemingly low drive (a full third of which could probably go extended periods without sex and not even notice), I find it counter-intuitive that vast numbers of married women would be willing to put their relationships in peril over sexual interests most don't bother asserting much in the first place. The very fact that we've had discussions over the importance (or lack thereof) that a man gives a woman an orgasm for example, provides me some insight. You'll be hard pressed to find a man content with not having an orgasm... yet its common place for women to be fine without having one; discussions of it usually go the route of criticizing men for expecting her to orgasm or trying too hard. More than half of my married friend's wives would prefer a massage to having sex. Many of those would be more pleased by his doing the laundry than having sex with her. These are running jokes among people I know... and the women are always like "I'm dead serious."

Far to much signal interference for me to heavily lean toward "bad sex" as a prominent reason for withholding. That's just my opinion formed from perceptions, stories and intuition... its not like I've polled.



I'm sorry you've been through that and by no means am I claiming that no women withhold out of sexual dissatisfaction with their partners.



Out of curiosity how long did this go on? Expanding my thinking a bit, I'm not sure what you've done is what I would consider the standard withholding story. What you did was say: "You want sex that is good for you, I want sex that is good for me." Not so much withholding as setting the terms of the exchange. Any time he wants to get laid, all he has to do is balance the exchange. In other words, you're not withholding... its within his power to get laid. Its hard to even say he was bad in bed... he wasn't even trying.

The traditional case does not have such a simple solution on his part. In fact, generally speaking, he's not even aware of why there's no more sex. She just never wants it and if he challenges her lack of desire - she wants it even less; now there is added pressure to have sex she's not actually interested in. Other times the withholder will give a ton of nonsexual reasons, and as the seeker addresses these reasons and still faces withholding, they come to discover those reasons were little more than excuses. Many people I've heard from chased their own tails like this for YEARS. In fact, its difficult to really ascertain why the withholding is going on, and THIS is why its so damaging to the one seeking sex.

I mean, if a woman tells a man who is too lazy to do oral "Hey, we'll have all kinds of crazy sex if you'd just go down on me." And he doesn't go down on her, she can't rightly be said to be withholding... the choice is his. Victims of withholding of the nature I'm referring to, and I think the one people struggle with, often for extended periods, don't have a choice. They can discern no rhyme or reason to it and can't get what they want of their own will.

Does that make sense? So... perhaps there is withholding, and then there is withholding. 

Trust me, I'm the last person to think in black and white. My entire world is gray.[/QUOTE]





DvlsAdvc8 said:


> We all speak from our own experience and those who have related their experiences to us. All of FW's withholding friends' hubbies were bad in bed by their accounts. In conversations I've had, "bad in bed" is probably the rarest thing I've heard in regards to the reasons there's little to no sex being had. My ex was withholding for the most part of 6 or 7 years, you can imagine I've had this conversation a lot! Given, I've heard more sexless stories from men than women (men surely being unlikely to admit to anyone that their wife thinks they're bad in bed) but its also that "the sex sucks" just doesn't fit well with my overall understanding of women. To the contrary, my experience is more of women being very reluctant to criticize someone in bed being less focused on physical elements of sex and more so happy to just have the closeness that sex entails. I mean, when only about half the women I know are actually gung-ho about sex and the other half is seemingly low drive (a full third of which could probably go extended periods without sex and not even notice), I find it counter-intuitive that vast numbers of married women would be willing to put their relationships in peril over sexual interests most don't bother asserting much in the first place. The very fact that we've had discussions over the importance (or lack thereof) that a man gives a woman an orgasm for example, provides me some insight. You'll be hard pressed to find a man content with not having an orgasm... yet its common place for women to be fine without having one; discussions of it usually go the route of criticizing men for expecting her to orgasm or trying too hard. More than half of my married friend's wives would prefer a massage to having sex. Many of those would be more pleased by his doing the laundry than having sex with her. These are running jokes among people I know... and the women are always like "I'm dead serious."
> 
> Far to much signal interference for me to heavily lean toward "bad sex" as a prominent reason for withholding. That's just my opinion formed from perceptions, stories and intuition... its not like I've polled.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sorry you've been through that and by no means am I claiming that no women withhold out of sexual dissatisfaction with their partners.
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity how long did this go on? Expanding my thinking a bit, I'm not sure what you've done is what I would consider the standard withholding story. What you did was say: "You want sex that is good for you, I want sex that is good for me." Not so much withholding as setting the terms of the exchange. Any time he wants to get laid, all he has to do is balance the exchange. In other words, you're not withholding... its within his power to get laid. Its hard to even say he was bad in bed... he wasn't even trying.
> 
> The traditional case does not have such a simple solution on his part. In fact, generally speaking, he's not even aware of why there's no more sex. She just never wants it and if he challenges her lack of desire - she wants it even less; now there is added pressure to have sex she's not actually interested in. Other times the withholder will give a ton of nonsexual reasons, and as the seeker addresses these reasons and still faces withholding, they come to discover those reasons were little more than excuses. Many people I've heard from chased their own tails like this for YEARS. In fact, its difficult to really ascertain why the withholding is going on, and THIS is why its so damaging to the one seeking sex.
> 
> I mean, if a woman tells a man who is too lazy to do oral "Hey, we'll have all kinds of crazy sex if you'd just go down on me." And he doesn't go down on her, she can't rightly be said to be withholding... the choice is his. Victims of withholding of the nature I'm referring to, and I think the one people struggle with, often for extended periods, don't have a choice. They can discern no rhyme or reason to it and can't get what they want of their own will.
> 
> Does that make sense? So... perhaps there is withholding, and then there is withholding.
> 
> Trust me, I'm the last person to think in black and white. My entire world is gray.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Deejo said:


> I just got to the point, where "I don't know ..." wasn't acceptable. The answer I came up with enabled me to see things more clearly and respond more appropriately.
> 
> I got angry. Not pitch a fit angry, shut down and freeze her out, and call her on everything she did and pulled that I didn't like, angry.
> 
> Literally changed our marriage dynamic overnight, no joke, and by no means for the better in terms of the marriage itself. But ... it did bring the entire dysfunctional saga to a resolution.


"I don't know" was unacceptable to me too, but "I don't know" didn't mean, "I want sex, but not with you." I think some people might try to avoid the stigma of just not having much drive by making excuses. Maybe a way to avoid the question "what is wrong with you?" Perhaps a sense of shame in being low drive.


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## DvlsAdvc8

Mem, in my case I ran the full gamut of options. I was never the doormat. The deferrals I gave in the relationship were generally in areas that were important to her, but not significant to me, the exception being having kids. I'd always maintained my interests and independence... if someone had handed me a 180 plan, I would have had very little to change.

When her sex drive plummeted, I first made it a point to up my game in the bedroom under the notion that if its really good for her, she'll want it more. She did enjoy it more, but that didn't improve our frequency any nor what I perceived at the time as her lack of desire for me. There were several serious discussions along the way where I'd register my discontent with our sex life and things would improve for a week before devolving into duty sex. I've never been one to ask for sex, much less beg for it or do the covert contract thing. To my thinking, it was only "If you're into me and happy with me, then you'd want to do this with me."

From there, I considered other issues without focusing on sex. Any issues that strained our relationship or otherwise stressed her such that she may feel overburdened or resentful. Asking her if something was wrong, she wasn't even on the same page... she seemed to think everything was great and with the exception of sex, I'd agree everything was. Pressed on it, she eventually began giving me what I later realized were excuses: "be more involved with the kids", "help more around the house", "I'm overwhelmed", even "you don't seem as attracted to me any more" (psh what? I was trying to get laid woman, what is evidence of attraction if that is not?! lol)

I addressed the things she mentioned, everything still seemed great with the relationship, but we were still barely having sex. I was always initiating, she was always unresponsive or excuse making. When I continued to press, we'd have sex and she seemed more than happy afterwards. Before kids, we had a good sex life, so I had no reason to suspect that she just had a very low sex drive. I had done all the outward things to address her complaints (even though I felt they were stretches), I had focused more on the things I knew she liked in bed, and I had ever more serious discussions of my displeasure with our sex life. All of that, got me more duty sex. Duty sex even devolved into duty bjs. I'd start seducing her with the aim of getting it on later, and when I escalated, she'd jump to a bj. I'd stop her and spin her around and she'd say she's not really in the mood and that she'd just "do for me". That was okay initially... until it began to sink in that she's not getting any sexual value from me. Its like I was worthless. Our sex life, rare as it was, was all about how she could quickly take care of me... like the most efficient way to do a chore. It sucked.

So then I stopped initiating just to test and see if she even notices. It was at least a month. I brought it up to her and she sort of laughed it off and said she didn't realize. I told her I was sick of how one sided our sex life felt... like its just something she does for me and gets nothing out of. She insisted otherwise, but nothing came of the discussion. From there forth I didn't initiate anymore.

That was the course of ~7 years, with exceptions made for late pregnancy (I'm weirded out by sex in the late stages of pregnancy... dunno why, so she was off the hook lol), and post-pregnancy. I had all but given up on sex with her, was still getting chore bjs which she began initiating. Eventually, I started turning them down. I started to feel like this was charity, or that I was just some additional task for her, and sex gave her nothing. THAT makes you feel utterly worthless and undesirable... and yet, all other aspects of home life were bizzarely chipper; sunshine and lollipops. Somewhere in that emotional place I don't connect well with, I was pissed. It wouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say I couldn't stand my wife anymore.

More and more I didn't want to be home, but honestly the thought of leaving never really came to me. Then one day on a motorcycle ride, I stopped at a gas station and a cute 21 year old came on to me really strong and ka-boom. I liked it. I'd almost forgotten what it felt like for someone to really lust for you.

Thus began a string of affairs and I didn't feel bad about it. Honestly, I felt vindicated. I even felt like it was justice. I was so deep into the resentment rationalizations that it was over. I even managed to delude myself into thinking that I had been manipulated in some way or another for the majority of the relationship. Its strange where your mind will go.

In hindsight, I wish I had the self-awareness and nerve to pull the divorce trigger years earlier. But then, I was also very image conscious; it was important to protect the illusion of the perfect family life and everything else that went into making people think I had done it all right and had a perfect life. Part of being an overachiever and having a leaky ego. :\

But I was never the pushover described by 180 or any of the other books that describe a man who has lost his wife's attraction. Gah, I started rambling again.


----------



## Fozzy

What's frustrating is that the "I don't know" line is thrown around without the follow-up statement of "I'd like to find out and address the issue".

I think "I don't know" is a valid response sometimes for SOME people, but an unwillingness to do anything about it indicates an apathy that can unravel a marriage.

Speaking for my own situation, I've suggested counseling more than once, brought home books, shared my own research on hormonal issues etc. What I get in return is "I don't know". Counseling is too expensive. Books get read up to MAYBE chapter 2 and then collect dust. Promised doctor appointments never get booked.

Honestly, I WOULD be willing to accept "I don't know"....for a while anyway--as long as there was some effort. Otherwise, I'm left with the next greatest probablility--that "I don't know" really means "I know exactly what it is but I'm not willing to tell you".


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## TikiKeen

In my house, "I don't know" seems to mean "If you'd read my mind, you _would_ know.." (See the "I'm not willing to tell you" that Fozzy ID'd.)

On a gut level, I sense that it truly means "I'll have to relinquish my illusion of control or the actual control I have, and I might not really have a 'me' down under that facade."


----------



## always_alone

Racer said:


> Yep.... She was too busy finding reasons I was to blame than ever looking inward. Everything I tried or changed didn't work... so she'd find some new low to blame all this on me.


Harsh. To me thiz screams of an extreme fear of intimacy on her part. Unfortunately, only the person who has the fear can do what's necessary to make it go away - hence the avoidance Mem talked about.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> even "you don't seem as attracted to me any more" (psh what? I was trying to get laid woman, what is evidence of attraction if that is not?! lol)


Many a male TAM poster here has made it clear this isn't necessarily true. Wanting time get laid means you're horny, not that you're attracted to her. And many women are very used to guys who care for nothing beyond their own pleasure. So much so that it makes some of us quite skeptical of compliments or declarations of love. 

Plus, I would imagine that a 180 for you would have to look quite different from the one preached by the man-up philosophy. As you tell the story, you've always been plenty alpha'ed up, independent, not a doormat. But your wife dreamed of white picket fences and children frolicking in the yard, maybe as you two watched, holdings hands and rocking on the porch.

You didn't want anything to do with her goal, her desires, her life ambitions. You gave in, but you never liked it, and wondered where that person that you loved had gone. Do you really think she felt she was attractive to you? Or that you wanting sex demonstrated your interest in her?

Yeah, you wanted sex, but as you have said many times, you didn't want the whole package.


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## Jung_admirer

It's the easiest and perhaps most natural thing in the world to blame our partner for something that bothers us. There is a widely accepted maxim of cognitive psychology that postulates that we enable the very behavior we complain about. Beyond all that, we are still people, sometimes with significant psychological deficits owning to ... living our life. Behavior can be consciously controlled for a period of time, but ultimately the internal sense of self will reflexively control behavior. A partner wants sex, then they don't. To protect their ego they blame you for their lack of libido. The avoidance of your needs is not acceptable to you, nor should it be. "I don't know" is an excuse for avoidance, which is properly met with, "I need you to own this part of you".

Like many of you, I blamed myself when I got the "I don't know". If only I was a better husband, more successful, a better listener. The compassion you extend to your partner should never be based on something external to yourself, it flows from within. And if there is a problem, it is a problem from within and should be addressed by the only person capable of doing so ... you.


----------



## MEM2020

*Disconnects*

Dvls,
I am confused by your earlier post about how everything but the sex was sunshine and lollipops. I read your old thread about how your wife relentlessly (daily) criticized you, seemed determined not to compliment anything you did and seriously deprioritized you after the kids were born. 

Still, after reading that thread I am curious: Was she ever a smoker? If so, when did she quit? Did you smoke inside the house or only outside? 

Staying up late means one thing when childless, something else entirely with young kids. 





DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I possibly see a tendency, more common to men, to only register direct complaints... or perhaps to compartmentalize issues. An issue in one area does not extend so much to another area. So withholding sex is a complaint that sex with their spouse isn't worth having... not so much a protest against another issue.
> 
> Perhaps this is a relative of the tendency, more common to women, to bring up a slew of past issues in a fight. Its all one big thing to women, and isolated things to men.


----------



## treyvion

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I can only gauge from my own experiences but I think it is rare for a person to just lose interest in sex. Yes, they lose interest in sex with their partner but not sex. The reason for this loss of interest with their spouse is due to lack of emotional connection, loss of respect and loss of attraction. Does it suck to be on the receiving end of this? Yup. My husband told me time and time again he didn't have a "drive". Imagine my anger when I find out he in fact did, just not for me. Hurt like hell and I can sympathize with everybody here who has gone through it. The thing is, for me, (besides attraction), the other "reasons" are excuses to mask the root of the problem. The reality is he didn't want sex WITH ME but would have leapt at the opportunity to have sex with others if given the chance. I believe that is the case for many, many here. Again, this is my take from my own experience so make of it what you will. I don't know your wife or anybody else here. I just know what happened in my own marriage. He had plenty drive, it just wasn't for me.
> 
> I wanted to add I didn't wake up one day and start belittling my husband. We both contributed to the issues in our marriage. He let a co-worker of his (at a function) grope and verbally harass me in front of him and did nothing, even when other husbands stood up to this guy and knocked him to the ground. He said it "wasn't worth it to him" and he "didn't want to make a scene". He wasn't a superior either, my husband was his. Another incident involved his parents who mistreated me in a very painful way. He acknowledged that it was cruel yet said nothing to them saying "He didn't want to upset them". My respect for him went to zero. He "avoided conflict" by throwing me under the bus, repeatedly. Instead of acting mature about it though and perhaps ending the marriage, I turned to belittling/mocking/hurting him on many, many occasions. He in turn didn't want sex with me. Wash, rinse, repeat. Until we got extensive counseling, nothing changed. So no, sex drive was just an excuse.


Sounds like you guys where fighting.

It sounds like some power BS to me, he didn't want to help you, definately not upsetting someone outside of you who he respected more than you.

But he also revealed all along he felt you thought you were better than him, so his ego was in conflict with yours.


----------



## Racer

always_alone said:


> Harsh. To me thiz screams of an extreme fear of intimacy on her part. Unfortunately, only the person who has the fear can do what's necessary to make it go away - hence the avoidance Mem talked about.


Probably. Violent rape survivor before my time. A common theme is ‘control’.

Also, that was my WW at the height of it about 5 years ago so it describes my entire 30's. Since then, she sees that same thing in the mirror and it’s also disturbing to her. She got suicidal... then started changing. Much different now. 

Furthermore, a lot of that really should be a dealbreaker. I was however so freaking co-dependant, that there was no limits or boundaries in place for what I would put up with. When you are that far co-dependant, your spouse IS your life; there is nothing else. That slow escalation of what she wanted had a lot to do with it.

Off-topic sort of, but google how cults work and why their members seem so indoctrinated to how they believe the world works. It was my WW’s marriage plan. It’s starts with isolating the subject from other influences like their friends & family so they come to you for advice and consultation.... And since we think so much alike, her reasons seemed rational at the time. I needed a ton of work too....


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Many a male TAM poster here has made it clear this isn't necessarily true. Wanting time get laid means you're horny, not that you're attracted to her. And many women are very used to guys who care for nothing beyond their own pleasure. So much so that it makes some of us quite skeptical of compliments or declarations of love.


I see where you're going with this, but my attraction isn't exclusively based on satisfying my horny intentions or own pleasure. My wanting sex wasn't a matter of using her for my pleasure (there was a thread on this actually, where women expressing desire for this actually blew my mind even). Literally any woman would suffice for that. I was attracted to and in love with my wife. I was attached and I don't easily attach to anything or anyone. After years of the excuse runaround and apathy toward sex, I wasn't attracted to her anymore - so if she was motivated by thinking I didn't find her attractive anymore, well, she fulfilled it all by herself. Sure enough near the end, I didn't even want to have sex with her period; regardless of her looks and for my pleasure alone or not.



always_alone said:


> Plus, I would imagine that a 180 for you would have to look quite different from the one preached by the man-up philosophy. As you tell the story, you've always been plenty alpha'ed up, independent, not a doormat. But your wife dreamed of white picket fences and children frolicking in the yard, maybe as you two watched, holdings hands and rocking on the porch.
> 
> You didn't want anything to do with her goal, her desires, her life ambitions. You gave in, but you never liked it, and wondered where that person that you loved had gone. Do you really think she felt she was attractive to you? Or that you wanting sex demonstrated your interest in her?
> 
> Yeah, you wanted sex, but as you have said many times, you didn't want the whole package.


This is sort of the reasoning I use to disarm my bitterness toward her: Ultimately, what she wanted and I wanted were no longer in alignment.. and hey, it happens and it was no one's intention. In MC, we both admitted that if we had met in our present state, we likely wouldn't have married because we wanted very different things from life.

Even though I know where you're going with this, I have to say yes, my desire for her sexually does show how attracted to her I was. What I think you're getting at is more to how I showed my love. My sacrifices (traveling, racing, my social life... even where we lived) to give her the things that became important to her (having kids, settling me down, living in a rural area closer to her parents)... should have been more than enough imo. I still wanted her individual time. She no longer wanted mine. I was completely displaced by the kids. While having children was never in my life plan, its not like I was ever an absentee parent. Even when she mentioned wanting me to be "more involved with the kids", I amped up to the task and became super dad - which I maintained all the way up until separating. I was willing and able to adapt to these things. What I couldn't adapt to was her withdrawal from me. She got her emotional fulfillment from the kids, but I got mine from her.

If all of that didn't show that I loved her, what could? If that combined with my sexual advances didn't show that I was attracted to her, what would?

I'm a pretty selfish person to begin with; anyone who knows me will probably agree. In fact, most of the emo types here think I'm emotionally closed off, walled up, what have you, and they're probably right. I don't let people in. But I gave and gave and gave to that woman like I've done with no one prior and no one since. What more could she possibly have wanted from me?

The day I realized that I didn't want her anymore was a good day.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

*Re: Disconnects*



MEM11363 said:


> Dvls,
> I am confused by your earlier post about how everything but the sex was sunshine and lollipops. I read your old thread about how your wife relentlessly (daily) criticized you, seemed determined not to compliment anything you did and seriously deprioritized you after the kids were born.
> 
> Still, after reading that thread I am curious: Was she ever a smoker? If so, when did she quit? Did you smoke inside the house or only outside?
> 
> Staying up late means one thing when childless, something else entirely with young kids.


No no... I've given you a slightly off impression. She was very critical, but not the sort of hateful critical. She wasn't this mean bish running around hating everything I did. Rather, she's the kind of person who is unknowingly critical all over the place and never complimentary... but honestly didn't mean to be hurtful. Her entire family is like this. Good things are what you're supposed to have done - they aren't complimented. Saying something like "Thank you for taking care of the kids and letting me sleep in" would never get said - you're just doing what you're supposed to do. It was more like an expected behavior. Problems should be corrected and thus they're criticized. The criticisms were not harsh... they were more like nagging or nit picking. Critical, but not mean, just always pointing out the one little wrong. Think death by a thousand paper cuts. That doesn't mean she was unhappy, it was just a sort of personality/upbringing thing. If I cooked dinner, she might say afterward that I left the salt out or forgot to wipe the counter etc etc. So while I never got compliments and thanks for what was done, I always got nitpicked for what wasn't. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression of her being some raging hyper critical bish. She wasn't.

This by itself wouldn't even bother me as I'm kinda weird about receiving compliments anyway. I downplay them. Honestly, my personality is admittedly a mess in this area. I could have done without the constant nit picks though.

So yeah, family life really was sunshine and lollipops to her. Fix our sex life and get her to do more with me alone and I'd have been pretty happy with everything too. By deprioritization, I mean to say that there was nothing done for US. She was crazy about scheduling activities... and none were for us. Everything was children. There literally was no US anymore. But family life? When all the bad things came out many of our friends confided that they thought we sh*t gold and pissed excellence. Family life seemed great.

She never smoked. I smoked when we met. I quit while we were dating so she would ride in my car. lol Over the years, I occasionally would pick up a pack and smoked while drinking. In the later years, I started smoking regularly and it was a sort of escape for me... to step outside, not have to hear kids or get put to work, sort of de-stress and be alone.


----------



## Jung_admirer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> I'm a pretty selfish person to begin with; anyone who knows me will probably agree. In fact, most of the emo types here think I'm emotionally closed off, walled up, what have you, and they're probably right. I don't let people in. But I gave and gave and gave to that woman like I've done with no one prior and no one since. What more could she possibly have wanted from me?


“We can live without religion and meditation, but we cannot survive without human affection.” -Dalai Lama

It's a strange irony when one gives all they have but still fails to meet the needs of a partner. Some people can find the grace to be grateful for what you offer and forgiving where you fell short. Others cannot... 

The entire concept is 'sex rank', and "finding a partner in my league" is based on selfish entitlement (immature). I am beautiful, powerful, smart and I deserve 'x'. I don't doubt for a second that it is absolutely true, and you need not wonder why unhappiness is so plentiful.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> The day I realized that I didn't want her anymore was a good day.


Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that you didn't love and desire your wife, only that she may not have seen it as such.

Re sex: women often suspect that wanting sex has nothing to do with love and desire because a huge number of us have plenty of experience where that was so. If, for example, time and time again men come to you looking for sex without either love or desire, it's easy to extrapolate to believe that all men only want sex, and you just happen to be the closest orifice. If you've had men time and time again profess their love for you to manipulate you into doing what they want, you can't help but wonder if it's a lie every time you hear it. 

Re other stuff: I expect that your wife was all too conscious of your resentments around her preferred lifestyle. Maybe you were superdad, maybe you did do everything you felt you could to address her needs. Why isn't it enough? Because deep down she knows that you aren't really there in heart or spirit. She knew, maybe even better than you did, that there was a deep divide between you. So why then would she want to pretend to feel an intimacy that isn't there?

None of this is a comment on your intentions or actions. Just possible explanations of her reactions. As to why she didn't just 'fess up and let you go much earlier, there are many possibilities. Maybe she thought you would settle down as you got older, or that she could change you. Or maybe she didn't have real awareness of what was going on, but only felt things were "not quite right". Maybe she was terrified of being a single mom and decided that what you had was "good enough."

ETA:. And you may be resentful and bitter about how she handled things, but truth is, you didn't do such a terrific job yourself.


----------



## Catherine602

I mean no disrespect to you MEM. I am so happy you are posting again and I respect you enormously and take to heart your advice. You have helped me and, by extension, my husband more than you can possibly imagine.


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## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Why isn't it enough? Because deep down she knows that you aren't really there in heart or spirit. She knew, maybe even better than you did, that there was a deep divide between you. So why then would she want to pretend to feel an intimacy that isn't there?
> 
> None of this is a comment on your intentions or actions. Just possible explanations of her reactions. As to why she didn't just 'fess up and let you go much earlier, there are many possibilities. Maybe she thought you would settle down as you got older, or that she could change you. Or maybe she didn't have real awareness of what was going on, but only felt things were "not quite right". Maybe she was terrified of being a single mom and decided that what you had was "good enough."


If she felt that, why not express it? Why let me run around the world chasing red herrings. Even up to the point where I asked for a divorce, she still wanted to keep the marriage. My asking, should have been a nice and convenient way for her to bow out.


----------



## always_alone

Racer said:


> Probably. Violent rape survivor before my time. A common theme is ‘control’.


Ah, see, this explains everything to me. Maybe it shouldn't. Taking out one's hurt on a loved one is no way to heal and move on.

But it does because when your own sexuality is turned into a weapon against yourself, it's a very natural reaction to want to shut it down to protect yourself from ever feeling that violated again.

This is especially true in those cases of victim blaming, when she is blamed for wearing the wrong outfit or drinking or c*ckteasing, or whatever. Many a rape trial ends up accusing the woman and exonerating the rapist--which is why so many rapes go unreported.

I'm not saying this to justify anything, just to help explain it. When we are made so vulnerable, we often build immense walls to protect ourselves.


----------



## Fozzy

always_alone said:


> Ah, see, this explains everything to me. Maybe it shouldn't. Taking out one's hurt on a loved one is no way to heal and move on.
> 
> But it does because when your own sexuality is turned into a weapon against yourself, it's a very natural reaction to want to shut it down to protect yourself from ever feeling that violated again.
> 
> This is especially true in those cases of victim blaming, when she is blamed for wearing the wrong outfit or drinking or c*ckteasing, or whatever. Many a rape trial ends up accusing the woman and exonerating the rapist--which is why so many rapes go unreported.
> 
> I'm not saying this to justify anything, just to help explain it. *When we are made so vulnerable, we often build immense walls to protect ourselves*.


This applies to both genders, in so many situations.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> ETA:. And you may be resentful and bitter about how she handled things, but truth is, you didn't do such a terrific job yourself.


Oh I know that, but I won't pretend for a second that it was my actions ended the marriage. By the time they came I was already done with the marriage. I should have left when my efforts to fix things failed and I quit trying.

My actions were wrong, but they weren't even remotely causal.


----------



## testr72

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If she felt that, why not express it? Why let me run around the world chasing red herrings. Even up to the point where I asked for a divorce, she still wanted to keep the marriage. My asking, should have been a nice and convenient way for her to bow out.


yes it looks like us men have to be psychic. we never get simple answers!


----------



## TiggyBlue

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If she felt that, why not express it? Why let me run around the world chasing red herrings. Even up to the point where I asked for a divorce, she still wanted to keep the marriage. My asking, should have been a nice and convenient way for her to bow out.


Possibly for the sake of the kids?


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> If she felt that, why not express it? Why let me run around the world chasing red herrings. Even up to the point where I asked for a divorce, she still wanted to keep the marriage. My asking, should have been a nice and convenient way for her to bow out.


Maybe she decided that the paycheck and built in babysitting were worth sacrificing intimacy for.

Or maybe one of the other "maybes" I posted earlier. I only know what I've read from your posts, so couldn't possibly answer that question.


----------



## remorseful strayer

always_alone said:


> Sometimes people get into these patterns of relating that bring out their worst. I've seen many couples fall into this trap. All they end up doing is piling resentment upon resentment until the relationship collapses. Even then they will sometimes stick around to destroy each other.
> 
> All of which is just a really long-winded way of agreeing that there are many ways to kill a relationship.


Those are all valid points. 

Sometimes, though, the issue is simply a low or non-existent sex drive rooted in personal emotional issues that have nothing to do with the spouse. 

Also, if the spouse wanting sex, invites the disinterested spouse to appropriate counseling to properly mediate the issue and the disinterested spouse refuses, there is not much the sexually interested spouse can do.


----------



## always_alone

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> My actions were wrong, but they weren't even remotely causal.


One last time, with feeling (and I promise to drop it): Yes they were!!!

What you wanted and did absolutely played a causal role in the demise of your relationship. True, I wasn't there, but from the way you describe both your wife and yourself, I *guarantee* it.

If you ever want an actual heartfelt successful long-term relationship (which I honestly doubt you do), you have some major changes to make. According to you, you gave your wife everything. But you left out the one thing that truly matters: yourself.

ETA: it will also help if you think more about compatibility and less about superficial attraction


----------



## always_alone

remorseful strayer said:


> Those are all valid points.
> 
> Sometimes, though, the issue is simply a low or non-existent sex drive rooted in personal emotional issues that have nothing to do with the spouse.
> 
> Also, if the spouse wanting sex, invites the disinterested spouse to appropriate counseling to properly mediate the issue and the disinterested spouse refuses, there is not much the sexually interested spouse can do.


Agreed. Unfortunately, we can never solve another person's problem for them. They have to both want to, and put in the work themselves. 

Even still, the sexually interested person may not be happy with the results.

But, amazingly, it can happen where support, nurturing, compassion, changing the dynamic or working on how we are contributing to the problem -- or sometimes even a good old-fashioned kick in the pants (metaphorically speaking of course) can make a huge difference in the disinterested spouse's willingness to work on the problem.


----------



## remorseful strayer

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> More and more I didn't want to be home, but honestly the thought of leaving never really came to me. Then one day on a motorcycle ride, I stopped at a gas station and a cute 21 year old came on to me really strong and ka-boom. I liked it. I'd almost forgotten what it felt like for someone to really lust for you.


Perfectly stated. That is why I say that everyone is vulnerable to infidelity. Even those who insist they aren't.


----------



## remorseful strayer

always_alone said:


> But, amazingly, it can happen where support, nurturing, compassion, changing the dynamic or working on how we are contributing to the problem -- or sometimes even a good old-fashioned kick in the pants (metaphorically speaking of course) can make a huge difference in the disinterested spouse's willingness to work on the problem.


Support, nurturing, compassion, etc, were all consistently offered time and again over a ten year period. 

I did not want to divorce her and I wasn't looking to leave her. 

In a weird way, and I know I will get beat up about this, my affair was the kick in the pants she needed to see a sex counselor. 

She divorced me, but I did still work on our relationship, and she decided she wanted to get back together. 

Sex had to be part of that package or I would simply have moved on. I earn a good living, am of average looks, tall and athletic, I could easily move on and I think she knew it.

The counselors told her that sex is the glue that bonds a couple. 

She worked on expressing her issues, all minor things and easily corrected really. I worked on correcting those issues. 

Another poster mentioned being stupidly happy in her reconciliation with her cheating spouse. 

Well, we are the same. We are like two teenagers and yes the sex is the glue...super glue, actually, that is bonding us tighter.

With all that said. I absolutely do not advocate an affair to solve no or low sex drive in a spouse. It could have very easily led to a permanent ending. 

Maybe bringing your spouse to a discussion group like this one, if they refuse counseling, would be a better approach. But I don't know that it would work in all or even any case.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

always_alone said:


> Maybe she decided that the paycheck and built in babysitting were worth sacrificing intimacy for.
> 
> Or maybe one of the other "maybes" I posted earlier. I only know what I've read from your posts, so couldn't possibly answer that question.


Who knows... I sure don't. She insisted in MC that she thought everything was fine until the affairs. She says she was happy. She knew I wanted more sex, and says she assumed all marriages were like that - the husband always wanting more sex than the wife. She literally said she thought that was normal.

She made good money on her own, she didn't need me for money. And she didn't need a babysitter, she never went anywhere but work without the kids (I'm not exaggerating). It was like pulling teeth to get her to commit to a babysitter just to get a date night.

All I was left with was what she cried about in MC. She's "broken" and just doesn't think about sex... like, ever (her words). She didn't mean to hurt me and didn't realize or understand that it was hurtful to me. She thought it was normal for the guy to be griping about not getting enough sex. I still don't know why she had me trying to address all her excuses instead of just admitting she just doesn't really care about sex.

But my overall point of telling all this was that, "I don't know", doesn't necessarily mean "I want sex, but not with you." Her case was literally, "I don't really care about sex. Its not important." Even if I still loved her, I wouldn't have stayed with her knowing that.


----------



## Created2Write

It seems to me that the idea of "just giving up" on a relationship if a man isn't good in bed, instead of withholding, is just as unfair as the withholding itself. Do relationships, marriages, really mean so little? That when we become dissatisfied the answer is to just let go? 

Now, I'm not justifying withholding by any means. I think it's just as cruel as cheating. It just seems to me that this isn't as simple as some are making it. I've only had one partner and I know that reinforcing my pleasure is important. And, even though DH is very good at sex, he sometimes doesn't make an effort to pleasure me before getting right to intercourse. This actually hurts _a heck of a lot_(emotionally), but is something I can't just bring up. It's such a delicate thing, telling the man you're in love with that he's not doing enough to please you sexually, and keeping any resentment or bitterness you feel out of it. 

It's not as easy as "Just tell him or leave". It really, truly, isn't. I don't withhold and never have. I would never, could never, resort to that. I need that intimacy with my husband soooo very much. But it doesn't make the situation any easier. I know it likely seems simple from the perspective of the person being withheld from, but know that it's just NOT as easy as you may think it is.


----------



## Fozzy

Here's looking forward to a time when sex stops being such a painful thing--for everyone.


----------



## ocotillo

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> But my overall point of telling all this was that, "I don't know", doesn't necessarily mean "I want sex, but not with you." Her case was literally, "I don't really care about sex. Its not important."


I can see that. There have been three very distinct sexual phases between my wife and myself

Marriage to birth of first child (~10 years) -Several times a week. Multiple times on weekends. Everybody is happy.

Birth of first child to youngest child is close to graduation (~26 years) Marriage is virtually sexless. Gaps of 18 months and more in between.

Graduation of youngest to present day (~4 years) Wife has sex on the brain all the time. Can barely keep up with her.​

I'm not complaining about water under the bridge at this point, (Putting up with it was my choice.) but if there is one obvious variable here, it was her desire for sex. Something about motherhood shut it down cold. Sex simply didn't enter into her thinking at all when there were children to care for.


----------



## Fozzy

ocotillo said:


> I can see that. There have been three very distinct sexual phases between my wife and myself
> 
> Marriage to birth of first child (~10 years) -Several times a week. Multiple times on weekends. Everybody is happy.
> 
> Birth of first child to youngest child is close to graduation (~26 years) Marriage is virtually sexless. Gaps of 18 months and more in between.
> 
> Graduation of youngest to present day (~4 years) Wife has sex on the brain all the time. Can barely keep up with her.​
> 
> I'm not complaining about water under the bridge at this point, (Putting up with it was my choice.) but if there is one obvious variable here, it was her desire for sex. Something about motherhood shut it down cold. *Sex simply didn't enter into her thinking at all when there were children to care for*.


Kids leave eventually, and then you're stuck back with the person you made them with. Why let the weeds grow all over that relationship when it's all you're going to have someday?


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> Hmmm....seems that I have been surrounded by highly sexual people, men and women, my whole life. My female friends have never said things like this.
> 
> When female friends were having crappy sex, they would tell me they just didn't want the crappy sex so they turned it down. Usually it ends in divorce. But they never talked about using sex as a weapon, they just said they just couldn't do it because it sucked so much. They actually highly desired sex, but not if it wasn't going to be good sex.
> 
> Mostly these females were not able to be honest with their husbands about these issues.
> 
> Which in itself, is cruel, IMO...but it was done out of ignorance.


I wonder if their sex life with their partner was never really good or it's sometimes a case of over time their partner got lazy,got theirs and left their partner hanging (more like FrenchFry's case). I can see why you wouldn't be into sex when sex left just leaves you feeling frustrated (especially if it's from a partner being selfish rather than ignorant, that doesn't sound any less painful than sex being withheld imo). 
It seems like withholding sex is a chicken and egg situation.


----------



## Faithful Wife

The friends in the scenario I described above were in their early 20's and married to or with very young men. These young friends are the ONLY women in my entire life of friendships with women (dozens and dozens of them over the past 20 years or so) who ever said they didn't want sex with their husbands and they specficially said this was why they didn't want it. They said these things to ME personally, in private, in a gf venting to gf type of way (contrary to someone else thinking they were "bragging"....um, to who were they "bragging"?) When telling me about this, they were distraught and didn't know how to handle it. I wrote a follow up post about how hard it was to get good information pre-internet days. I was young and foolish too and had no clue what to advise these women...I just listened and felt bad for them and for their men, and those relationships have all ended now.

My point was that if it is so common for women to gleefully withhold from men for just any ol' power control reason they feel like, like has been suggested on this thread...then wouldn't at least ONE woman in my life have actually said this? I mean, it must not be THAT common?

I know SA said she has a friend who apparently does say she gleefully withholds....only one friend? If it is so common, why wouldn't all us women know MORE women who do so and brag about it?

No where did I say that "all women who withhold sex are doing so because their lovers are crappy". I only referred to a couple women I know personally.

No where did I say that these women SHOULD HAVE withheld sex.

I did several times say it was not the right way to handle it.

I did also acknowledge that women can be crappy in bed, too and that I don't know if these women were or not, it could be that THEY were the ones who sucked in bed, how would I know?

All I was reporting was that in my experience, women want sex, they don't withhold from their husbands, and I actually know MANY women who have been with men who withhold from THEM (for many varied reasons...maybe even because they are bad in bed, I don't really know for sure).

I never said that a woman or a man should "withhold sex" for any reason, never said I agreed, never said all men suck in bed, never said women should withhold if men suck in bed....etc etc etc.

But if a man wants to hear me saying things I didn't say, it really isn't my problem.

Women love sex and don't withhold it, in my experience, with the exception of a few friends I had when we were all very young and a naive.

Added later: Also, I ask everyone I know well about their sex lives. I'm just curious like that and always have been. I like understanding sexuality and all of its huge variations. To understand better, I talk to everyone...regardless of their age or station in life or gender, I talk to them. I get the scoop. This is why I am so confused. I basically interview my friends about their sex lives...the ones who don't want to talk about it, it is obvious, but the ones who do want to talk open right up to me and let it fly. Many times they want advice and approach me first. In all of this, not ONE woman I have EVER known has said "yeah, my husband wants sex all the time but I just withhold to be cruel and I like the power trip"? Or not even anything that could be construed that way between the lines? Nope, not ever, not once. EXCEPT the very young ones in my example so many years ago, AND they didn't "gleefully" withhold...it was actually very sad, and the breakups were very difficult.


----------



## moco82

Fozzy said:


> Here's looking forward to a time when sex stops being such a painful thing--for everyone.


When we outlive our bodies and carry on as cyborgs.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I don't believe women would admit to their girlfriends that they withhold sex from there husband as a power trip. It just isn't very flattering to them. 

They would either not admit withholding at all or they would come up with a reason that doesn't make them look bad. 

I have heard my wife talk with her friends. They all support each other. If one of them says, yeah he wants it all the time and I can't be bothered, then the rest of them echo the same things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Well...here's the thing though....if a person is truly LD, then why would it be surprising that they care very little about sex?

My experience is different because like attracts like. I am HD, I am friends with HD women. Therefore, my friends actually want sex and have sex drives and also, they end up being the ones with husbands who withhold (I said this early on this thread). My friends and I are likely to talk about how we wish we could have more sex.

I do not doubt what you just said, Sam. I am just saying this: for women who actually DO have a sex drive (ie: myself and my female friends and many women around TAM) they will not be "withholding" sex nor talking about enjoying "withholding" sex.


----------



## TiggyBlue

Faithful Wife said:


> I do not doubt what you just said, Sam. I am just saying this: for women who actually DO have a sex drive (ie: myself and my female friends and many women around TAM) they will not be "withholding" sex nor talking about enjoying "withholding" sex.


:iagree:
If everything's fine in the relationship, attraction is their on you have a decent sex drive, wouldn't withholding just be torturing yourself?


----------



## MEM2020

Catherine,
No offense taken. Based on your feedback I read some earlier posts by dvlsadv8. I had not read that other stuff before now. 

I retract my profile as it was way off. 

As for my comments about 'deferent' behavior they were intended to be gender neutral. 





Catherine602 said:


> I mean no disrespect to you MEM. I am so happy you are posting again and I respect you enormously and take to heart your advice. You have helped me and, by extension, my husband more than you can possibly imagine.


----------



## solvency7

some women just arent as into it, bit like take it or leave it, this isnt always about the person they are with,bit like a piece of cake,do i dont i,
personally it baffles me to distraction why someone wouldnt as much as possible!


----------



## testr72

Im very curious, how is a LD partner defined?

If the frequency of sex is once /week would that someone be considered LD ? To me it wouldnt but once a month would.

So what constitutes someone to be LD?


----------



## ocotillo

testr72 said:


> Im very curious, how is a LD partner defined?
> 
> If the frequency of sex is once /week would that someone be considered LD ? To me it wouldnt but once a month would.
> 
> So what constitutes someone to be LD?


HD & LD are often simply relative to each other. 

Some people go so far in one direction or the other that they would fit the description by almost anybody's standard.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> My point was that if it is so common for women to gleefully withhold from men for just any ol' power control reason they feel like, like has been suggested on this thread...then wouldn't at least ONE woman in my life have actually said this? I mean, it must not be THAT common?


Is that logic any different than my saying in the 7 YEARS that I have been actively pursuing information on the subject I have NEVER heard of a woman withholding/leaving her husband solely because he was bad in bed?

I personally know several who gleefully withhold. They like the fact that they can coerce behavior through sex, or punish by withholding it. Isn't there an element of "you're in the doghouse" to this? Or "you just earned yourself a night on the couch?" These sort of things happen in a lot of relationships. One of my friends said his wife said he was "cut off" until he started cutting his toe nails more often or something. lol



Faithful Wife said:


> I know SA said she has a friend who apparently does say she gleefully withholds....only one friend? If it is so common, why wouldn't all us women know MORE women who do so and brag about it?
> 
> No where did I say that "all women who withhold sex are doing so because their lovers are crappy". I only referred to a couple women I know personally.


Okay then. That's a simple stalemate. You have some people saying its common among withholders, you have SA's friend, and you have yours and whoever's experience that it is apparently non-existent because women want sex.

My only contention with what you said was the implication that your explanation is preponderant - via "all the women I've known"; it seems to fall nicely in line with other claims you've made that if X, then the guy otherwise sexually inadequate.



Faithful Wife said:


> All I was reporting was that in my experience, women want sex, they don't withhold from their husbands, and I actually know MANY women who have been with men who withhold from THEM (for many varied reasons...maybe even because they are bad in bed, I don't really know for sure).


A bunch of female witholders on one side and a bunch of male withholders on the other. Perhaps each believes the other party doesn't want sex with them?



Faithful Wife said:


> Women love sex and don't withhold it, in my experience, with the exception of a few friends I had when we were all very young and a naive.


That is your claim, but what say you to the counter claims? I am here to tell you that I know my wife didn't care about sex. I experienced it, and those very words came out of her mouth in MC. This isn't a matter of C2W's bogus argument of me telling what women think. Octillo posts that during the child rearing years his wife didn't care about sex. I have several friends who believe their wives don't care about sex. And I know 4 women right NOW who use sex as leverage with their husbands (and boyfriend).

That's not "women loving sex and not withholding it". I have been obsessed with this subject because of my own experience, and the majority of shared experience I got back from folks was very similar to what ocotillo describes... the attitude of a woman who just doesn't think about sex. Its not important, doesn't receive thought/interest, and falls by the wayside. Typically in moms. People who have seen my first thread saw just how much I thought it was connected to motherhood.

This is a real phenomenon that shouldn't be dismissed by saying "women want sex and don't withhold". Its not a simple blanket statement that women just don't want sex. It IS fact though, that especially for women in those mommy years, many women DO seriously deprioritize sex and show little to no interest.

That FACT is straight out of my therapist's mouth as well.



Faithful Wife said:


> In all of this, not ONE woman I have EVER known has said "yeah, my husband wants sex all the time but I just withhold to be cruel and I like the power trip"? Or not even anything that could be construed that way between the lines?


I accept your experience and I'm sure some women do withhold out of disappointment with sex. It could very well be that your post just falls so closely in line with other times you've attacked men sexually that I feel you have ill intent. When OP tells you his experience or I tell you about women I know that RIGHT NOW do this sort of power tripping, it ought to at least cause you to believe it is a real thing. One woman I know even said she likes to "make him squirm" and laughed about how she can get whatever she wants by "shutting off the spigot" for a couple weeks. I think its a mistake to think that this power dynamic doesn't exist in many marriages where a guy allows it to develop, and that a person wouldn't derive enjoyment from such power. I also get the vibe from this woman that she doesn't have much respect for her husband anymore for the very reason that he allows this to go on. So if she wants sex, she sure has a strange way of having a sexual relationship.

As to your experience, I've known plenty of girls who've left boyfriends for being bad in bed alone, but I've never heard this of leaving husbands. There's always more to it than just sex. The closest thing I've got is one woman I know who found another guy on the side. And her case was really pretty extreme neglect on the husband's part - he was a workaholic type and she didn't want to divorce for the usual reasons.


----------



## testr72

To back up DvlsAdvc8 , I know of 4 married men in their 30's that complain of not having sex with their wives. 
Its always the same ; shes not interested , shes tired , kids , etc all the same excuses
It does look that motherhood changes womens sexuality to a point where intimacy ceases to exist. The problem is will she ever get her drive back.

In fact, one of my friends stated that he was getting more when he was single then now that hes married... 

Im been married for 8 years now with 2 kids ,my wife just wants to be left alone, she hates being touched, sex is the last thing on her mind.


----------



## committed_guy

moco82 said:


> Surely it's unfair, unhealthy, and passive-aggressive.
> 
> But, damn, I totally get why so many women enjoy it so much. For the man it's twice as sweet because it's sweet revenge. Now *you* get to guess and wonder! :FIREdevil: :lol: :smthumbup:
> 
> Having a diminishing sex drive has its benefits.


I can relate somewhat. For over a decade my wife refused me and then accused me of being a sex addict for needing it. I had to work through a lot of anger to forgive her for that even though she doesn't admit she did anything wrong. Now I could care less about sex. Occasionally she will say stuff to me that I used to say to her many years ago. I laugh to myself over it now.

The only difference is I don't do it out of revenge. I honestly don't care about our sex life anymore. If she initiates then I don't refuse or if it's a bad time like really late then she will buy that excuse. Luckily her drive is very sporadic so if I say I am too tired one night it doesn't carry into the next day. 

To the OP: unresolved anger is going to cause more issues later on. You need to find a way to deal with it without the anger.


----------



## testr72

so you've effectively become celibate in your marriage ^^^
resentment is a major issue, it will build up over the years.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

testr72 said:


> To back up DvlsAdvc8 , I know of 4 married men in their 30's that complain of not having sex with their wives.
> Its always the same ; shes not interested , shes tired , kids , etc all the same excuses
> It does look that motherhood changes womens sexuality to a point where intimacy ceases to exist. The problem is will she ever get her drive back.
> 
> In fact, one of my friends stated that he was getting more when he was single then now that hes married...
> 
> Im been married for 8 years now with 2 kids ,my wife just wants to be left alone, she hates being touched, sex is the last thing on her mind.


I'll admit its not all women... so I won't say motherhood changes all women's drive in this way... but it is really common from what I've gathered. When I was in therapy, the therapist said its a common issue for couples in MC, wives generally don't acknowledge it, and its usually worst while the children are young - as in pre-teen. She did say that in most cases the couple's sex life returns afterwards, but I remember thinking: so let me get this straight, I'm supposed to go sexless for 10+ years because she suddenly finds it unimportant? After 10 years, I wouldn't want it back - affection withered - and now its dead. I don't know how people make it through that. I would have nothing but anger left.

My best college friend on the other hand says he can hardly keep up with his wife and she's a mom. Hearing this, or I imagine, hearing what women say on this forum (where every woman seemingly can't get enough), and you really go through a phase of questioning yourself, your wife and the entire marriage. ie - These people are all getting busy, wtf is wrong with my situation?

One day you stop asking that question, because you don't care anymore. I think that's the day the marriage really ends.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Now more than ever super happy DH and I can't have children together.I'd miss all the sex.


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## testr72

Yep 10 years without sex, thats pretty sad. That's a very long time to wait and there are no guarantees. 
All that resentment, anger , frustration and suffering will most likely kill any feelings for her. 
To me, no sex for 2 years thats being roommates.
There will be other attractive women that will need and respect a man.
This is a very tough situation for married men that have kids to be in/
A LD women is forcing her partner to make extremely difficult choices.


----------



## Created2Write

I was horrified of that happening to us when I was pregnant. Absolutely horrified. So many cases on here, so many I knew in my life including my mother, my father thinking it was inevitable...I was petrified that that would be me. Cried about it every night before I went to sleep. Actually wished I wasn't pregnant at one point. That it had never happened. I had nightmares of my husband packing his bags and high-tailing it away from me. I was mortified. 

And then I lost the baby. I felt like little better than dirt. Still can't think back to then without feeling an enormous amount of guilt. Almost like I killed her with my stress and fear.

Don't assume that your wives are just selfish who no longer care about you. The idea of balancing the role of wife and the role of mother is _terrifying_. It's why I no longer want kids. I'll adopt someday, but right now...I can't get the dreams I had out of my head every time I think about having a baby. I fear becoming a mother only to lose my husband because of this more-than-common occurrence of losing interest in sex.


----------



## ocotillo

testr72 said:


> Yep 10 years without sex, thats pretty sad. That's a very long time to wait and there are no guarantees.
> All that resentment, anger , frustration and suffering will most likely kill any feelings for her.
> To me, no sex for 2 years thats being roommates.
> There will be other attractive women that will need and respect a man.
> This is a very tough situation for married men that have kids to be in/
> A LD women is forcing her partner to make extremely difficult choices.


On the bright side though, I can remember the day, the hour, the minute and what the weather was like when #2 and #3 were conceived :rofl:


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Created2Write said:


> Don't assume that your wives are just selfish who no longer care about you.


That's a pretty difficult thing to do when you don't understand what is going on, and she won't/can't express it.

Knowing what I know today, I understand my ex was not withholding out of lack of care for me. Still, the plant that doesn't get watered dies.

The marriage produced the children. The marriage supports the children. Putting the children before the marriage is putting the cart before the horse, but it is a refrain most women, and some men, sing proudly. Yet, how great is it for the children when the marriage fails? So is it really in the children's best interest to put them before the marriage?

Of course, my opinion on that is about as unpopular with most women as all of my arguments here, but I digress.


----------



## ocotillo

Created2Write said:


> And then I lost the baby. I felt like little better than dirt. Still can't think back to then without feeling an enormous amount of guilt. Almost like I killed her with my stress and fear.


Please don't feel that way. It wasn't you at all. Stress is more the rule than the exception during a first pregnancy. 




Created2Write said:


> The idea of balancing the role of wife and the role of mother is _terrifying_.


I wish I understood that better.


----------



## Created2Write

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> That's a pretty difficult thing to do when you don't understand what is going on, and she won't/can't express it.


I don't understand from experience, but I can see that this would be difficult. For both of you. 



> *Knowing what I know today, I understand my ex was not withholding out of lack of care for me.* Still, the plant that doesn't get watered dies.


I'm not saying women should withhold. I don't think men or women should withhold, whether that's sex or emotional support, or domestic support or quality time...whatever our spouses need to feel loved is not something that the other should withhold, especially if they continue to voice their dissatisfaction.



> The marriage produced the children. The marriage supports the children. Putting the children before the marriage is putting the cart before the horse, but it is a refrain most women, and some men, sing proudly. Yet, how great is it for the children when the marriage fails? So is it really in the children's best interest to put them before the marriage?


This is something I agree with wholeheartedly and is precisely why I was so damn terrified of being a parent. I was a wife first, therefore I don't get the luxury of putting his needs on the backburner. DH and I knew that our lives would be changing. We already struggled with putting the other person first, and adding a baby, no sleep, very little extra time together and no extra money to the whole thing...I was pretty certain my marriage would be gone in less than five years.


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## Created2Write

ocotillo said:


> Please don't feel that way. It wasn't you at all. Stress is more the rule than the exception during a first pregnancy.


It's difficult not to feel that way when you wished you weren't pregnant and secretly hoped that you might miscarry the baby. Guess it's a moment of watch what you wish for.



> I wish I understood that better.


I wish I could explain it better. For me, I had a man I loved more than anyone else I'd ever known, that I was also having a terrible time communicating with and who was having a terrible time communicating with me. Nine months seems like a long time until you're pregnant and you realize you only have nine months to get your act together, an act you've been trying to get together for nearly four years and have failed at it. Nine months to fix the big issues that, deep down, you know won't be fixed in that amount of time. Can't afford counseling with a baby on the way, and definitely won't be able to afford counseling after. 

I still have anxiety thinking back to the fear I lived with every moment of every day, and that haunted me every night. Wondering if I'd be able to pull it off...defy the odds...be among the few who stay strong and manage both roles at the same time despite how tired I might be. I hoped, but doubted, I would be successful.


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## ocotillo

Created2Write said:


> I still have anxiety thinking back to the fear I lived with every moment of every day, and that haunted me every night. Wondering if I'd be able to pull it off...defy the odds...be among the few who stay strong and manage both roles at the same time despite how tired I might be. I hoped, but doubted, I would be successful.


I think (hope) most husbands would be extremely supportive here. Believe it or not, being up all night with a feverish child doesn't do wonders for a man's libido either.  I remember the Varicella zoster vaccination was not available soon enough for us and three little girls all had children pox at once. It was hell. I think we went the better part of four days without sleep.

What I wasn't prepared for was having my wife morph into her mother. I wouldn't trade my children for anything, but I still really miss the carefree, smiling person who sang all the time and would spin pirouettes on the hardwood floors in her socks when she was really happy.


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## skype

C2W:
You will manage the juggling act of being a wife and mother successfully. How do I know that? Because you are aware of the pitfalls. You know that the best thing you can give your children is a strong marriage. You understand the importance of good communication, and you will know to make couple time a priority. 

It is just like people who have one child and cannot imagine loving a second child. Love expands infinitely to encompass all members of your family. Your love for your husband will deepen as you raise children together. You will see aspects of both of you reflected in your children, and you will learn more than you could ever imagine about being human.


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## treyvion

I just wanted to add onto the title "The joys of withholding sex".

A withholder is boldened and emblazoned as time passes on, knowing you likely won't damn well do a thing about it. I mean what can you do? Leave? Well leave then.


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## MEM2020

C2,
I'm sorry you lost your baby. 




Created2Write said:


> I don't understand from experience, but I can see that this would be difficult. For both of you.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying women should withhold. I don't think men or women should withhold, whether that's sex or emotional support, or domestic support or quality time...whatever our spouses need to feel loved is not something that the other should withhold, especially if they continue to voice their dissatisfaction.
> 
> 
> 
> This is something I agree with wholeheartedly and is precisely why I was so damn terrified of being a parent. I was a wife first, therefore I don't get the luxury of putting his needs on the backburner. DH and I knew that our lives would be changing. We already struggled with putting the other person first, and adding a baby, no sleep, very little extra time together and no extra money to the whole thing...I was pretty certain my marriage would be gone in less than five years.


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## MEM2020

Testr,
Is your wife affectionate with the children? 




testr72 said:


> To back up DvlsAdvc8 , I know of 4 married men in their 30's that complain of not having sex with their wives.
> Its always the same ; shes not interested , shes tired , kids , etc all the same excuses
> It does look that motherhood changes womens sexuality to a point where intimacy ceases to exist. The problem is will she ever get her drive back.
> 
> In fact, one of my friends stated that he was getting more when he was single then now that hes married...
> 
> Im been married for 8 years now with 2 kids ,my wife just wants to be left alone, she hates being touched, sex is the last thing on her mind.


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## moco82

committed_guy said:


> I could care less about sex. Occasionally she will say stuff to me that I used to say to her many years ago. I laugh to myself over it now.
> 
> The only difference is I don't do it out of revenge. I honestly don't care about our sex life anymore. If she initiates then I don't refuse or if it's a bad time like really late then she will buy that excuse. Luckily her drive is very sporadic so if I say I am too tired one night it doesn't carry into the next day.


This is our situation, except one night I felt the need for revenge, and the weird satisfaction that resulted prompted me to post this thread. I couldn't keep it up as I'm not vengeful by nature (to a fault--some would call me spineless; if I were firmer, this relationship would have ended pre-kid at her withholding stage), but this thread took on a life of its own that I dared not interfere.


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## testr72

MEM11363 said:


> Testr,
> Is your wife affectionate with the children?


Yes shes affectionate to her children but not as much as I am. Im a very warm and affectionate person. 

Shes having some medical issues after her pregnancy , I respect that and therefore Im willing to back off for now. However, our second child is almost 2 years old now. 

She pushes me away every time I try hugging or to get close. Im willing to wait for couple of more months but shes always been giving the typical excuses, tired, no time , last thing on her mind is sex etc.


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## MEM2020

Testr,
Why does she push you away? 

Does she dislike affection because:
- You start with affection and then initiate sex?
- She doesn't like the way you touch her?
- She dislikes intimate contact with you, even non sexual affection?



UOTE=testr72;5100290]Yes shes affectionate to her children but not as much as I am. Im a very warm and affectionate person. 

Shes having some medical issues after her pregnancy , I respect that and therefore Im willing to back off for now. However, our second child is almost 2 years old now. 

She pushes me away every time I try hugging or to get close. Im willing to wait for couple of more months but shes always been giving the typical excuses, tired, no time , last thing on her mind is sex etc.[/QUOTE]


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