# Silence gives assent



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If a woman hits on me I have 3 basic choices:
1. Shut it down. I can do this in any number of ways up to and including terminating all interaction with her. Generally, pointing directly at your wedding ring and giving them a WTF look works like a champ. 
2. Remain carefully neutral. This is just wrong as it implies that you are perfectly fine with the other person continuing to pursue you. BAD message, bad behavior. It would be unacceptable to my W if I did it, and it is not acceptable to me for her to do it. 
3. Encourage it. Flirt back. 

I read lots of posts on here about online stuff. The husband writes that his W isn't flirting with her male friends on line, THEY are flirting with her. That is a crock. If they are flirting and she doesn't shut it down hard and warn them she will break contact if they resume (and follow through on that), she IS subtly encouraging it. 

As for the women on here that claim "if she isn't flirting back" and her H gets upset about something she can't control, that is his insecurity and his problem.

If she isn't aggressively shutting the other guy down she is dissing the marriage.

And, while my wife is not responsible for me feeling secure as a person, she is responsible for me feeling secure about the marriage itself. If she blatantly shows no respect for our marriage, she is going to get a very strong reaction from me.

Facebook and other media are creating more of these "passive" female, pursuing male situations every day. The husbands need to have some boundaries and the spine to ignore false charges of insecurity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

This applies here. I totally agree with you. Ambivalence to activities is tantamount to consent in this aspect. Right or wrong.

While I agree at some point that the husband should step into certain circumstances I believe this is after the wife attempts in good faith to handle it herself. It depends how aggregious it is of course. If a man were to call my wife a b!tch for example I would handle it.

I think this goes for inappropriate comments, touching and flirting. But I also think a spouse is responsible for putting themselves purposely in situations that by their lack of objections or their poor choices sends a wrong message. This can be manifested in many ways.

On the one hand I am lectured that I do not give credit to women for their inteligence and their ability to handle situations. I think I do get this. I believe my wife is this way. I do think she is a bit too trusting of others. I have scores of real life examples. She wants to believe in peoples goodness. Probably part of why I love her. She complements me in this way.

I think women should be able to handle sitautions. I expect that from anyone I would have anything to do with. However, some seem to want to put themselves into situations, put out the vibe intentionally or unintentionally or just do not discourage advances. I can only assume they get something from this. Attention for lack of a better term. It is not so innocent however.

Yes men can be jerks. Yes there are men who will not take no for an answer. Saying I think you are hot but I am married so I cannot come with you is not saying no. Or giggling and flirting in the face of an advance. Or just flat being silent. Mostly men can be led on by women.
Also I am not buying the puppy dog stuff either. No man other than your husband needs to be your puppy dog. Being cute is not a license to disrespect.

I was watching a show last night most of us have surely seen. They had a part on speed dating. They found that guys in general are overly optimistic with women. They think they are doing great. So this tells me women need to be more clear if the attention is not wanted. That there is a boundary she is not going to let slide. They say the reason men are so optimistic is because they need to not miss out on a chance to hookup. So they don't give up so easily if they think they have the slightest chance. A mixed message is bad. So standing your ground for a few minutes and then flirting the next few and in general being inconsistent is just going to make the guy focus on the positive repsonses. He discards the rest.

If there are guys sniffing around a woman for more than a short time, they think they have a chance. They may be dumb, but they thinb they have a chance. I believe it is the wife's responisbility to make it clear that they do not. One would think telling a guy you are married would discourage them. It will not discourage the ones we are concerned about. In fact it only gives them reason for the challenge or to shift tactics.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

E,
I definitely let her handle when possible. We did have an in incident at a gym we belonged to. A steroidal monkey that my wife did not immediately give a hard shut down vibe to.

His body language quickly became unacceptable. Staring at her ignoring me. The second time that happened I followed him into the mens room and told him to stay the fvck away from my wife. I was seriously scared but angry enough to roll the dice. He did not talk to her after that.





QUOTE=Entropy3000;663124]"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"

This applies here. I totally agree with you. Ambivalence to activities is tantamount to consent in this aspect. Right or wrong.

While I agree at some point that the husband should step into certain circumstances I believe this is after the wife attempts in good faith to handle it herself. It depends how aggregious it is of course. If a man were to call my wife a b!tch for example I would handle it.

I think this goes for inappropriate comments, touching and flirting. But I also think a spouse is responsible for putting themselves purposely in situations that by their lack of objections or their poor choices sends a wrong message. This can be manifested in many ways.

On the one hand I am lectured that I do not give credit to women for their inteligence and their ability to handle situations. I think I do get this. I believe my wife is this way. I do think she is a bit too trusting of others. I have scores of real life examples. She wants to believe in peoples goodness. Probably part of why I love her. She complements me in this way.

I think women should be able to handle sitautions. I expect that from anyone I would have anything to do with. However, some seem to want to put themselves into situations, put out the vibe intentionally or unintentionally or just do not discourage advances. I can only assume they get something from this. Attention for lack of a better term. It is not so innocent however.

Yes men can be jerks. Yes there are men who will not take no for an answer. Saying I think you are hot but I am married so I cannot come with you is not saying no. Or giggling and flirting in the face of an advance. Or just flat being silent. Mostly men can be led on by women.
Also I am not buying the puppy dog stuff either. No man other than your husband needs to be your puppy dog. Being cute is not a license to disrespect.

I was watching a show last night most of us have surely seen. They had a part on speed dating. They found that guys in general are overly optimistic with women. They think they are doing great. So this tells me women need to be more clear if the attention is not wanted. That there is a boundary she is not going to let slide. They say the reason men are so optimistic is because they need to not miss out on a chance to hookup. So they don't give up so easily if they think they have the slightest chance. A mixed message is bad. So standing your ground for a few minutes and then flirting the next few and in general being inconsistent is just going to make the guy focus on the positive repsonses. He discards the rest.

If there are guys sniffing around a woman for more than a short time, they think they have a chance. They may be dumb, but they thinb they have a chance. I believe it is the wife's responisbility to make it clear that they do not. One would think telling a guy you are married would discourage them. It will not discourage the ones we are concerned about. In fact it only gives them reason for the challenge or to shift tactics.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

> On the one hand I am lectured that I do not give credit to women for their inteligence and their ability to handle situations. I think I do get this. I believe my wife is this way. I do think she is a bit too trusting of others. I have scores of real life examples. She wants to believe in peoples goodness. Probably part of why I love her. She complements me in this way.


My husband says this to me all the time...that I am too trusting and believe in people's goodness to a fault. He's definitely the opposite here.

I understand how this might be frustrating and I know it is to my husband but at the same time I also get from him that it's something he admires about me and even though he may think he wishes I would be more like him, I doubt he would actually want that to be the case.

In regards to flirting, I had a post on here about this recently. It is something I grapple with as I already vocalized. I felt guilty knowing I was dressing up in order to be treated a little differently by a man I knew was flirty. After reflecting I realized it was wrong and disrespectful both to me and my husband. I haven't had to deal with it again yet but will next week as I have another meeting with the same man. I don't know how to deal with it. It's really uncomfortable.

It is natural for me to want to please and this goes for both sexes. I will automatically read body language and speech and figure out how to make the other more comfortable, happy and satisfied. I recognize I do it on a mental level but I do it very naturally. It would actually take tremendous effort for me not to do this.

My office just moved to the second floor of a construction company two weeks ago. Seriously, the kooth level is not what I'm used to and I'm at a loss on how to deal with it. There are whistles and I'm not kidding you when I say a guy who works construction will come up to me in the parking lot and say hello, make small talk, all the while literally looking at my breasts.

Is it appropriate for me to say, "Hello? My face is up here?" or "Please show me some respect and talk to me rather than my breasts?"

I'm at a loss as to how to deal with it and have taken to walking quicker and pretending to be on my phone so that I can't get stopped and stuck in a conversation I don't want to have. The girls in my office actually think it's complimentary and enjoy the attention. I find it mildly offensive but don't want to be the killjoy. 

I spoke to my husband about this and he said I should talk to the boss (who owns the whole building that we've moved into) and tell him that it bothers me.

I don't know though. It's trickier than it seems. Never had to deal with anything like this. Seems the work place is a lot harder to navigate than the park when you've got a bunch of kids around you and a baggies full of goldfish.

As far as Facebook goes...never had any problems at all there. So I can't relate to that. All of my problems are involving my work.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> E,
> I definitely let her handle when possible. We did have an in incident at a gym we belonged to. A steroidal monkey that my wife did not immediately give a hard shut down vibe to.
> 
> His body language quickly became unacceptable. Staring at her ignoring me. The second time that happened I followed him into the mens room and told him to stay the fvck away from my wife. I was seriously scared but angry enough to roll the dice. He did not talk to her after that.


That would have hacked me off as well. Good for you.

Did you tell your wife about it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes. I told her this guy was clearly "off" so most women likely gave him the shut down vibe immediately. And that he therefore interpreted normal friendliness from a woman as interest.

UOTE=Entropy3000;663310]That would have hacked me off as well. Good for you.

Did you tell your wife about it?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Trenton said:


> My husband says this to me all the time...that I am too trusting and believe in people's goodness to a fault. He's definitely the opposite here.
> 
> I understand how this might be frustrating and I know it is to my husband but at the same time I also get from him that it's something he admires about me and even though he may think he wishes I would be more like him, I doubt he would actually want that to be the case.
> 
> ...


Wow, you covered a lot of ground here.

Yeah, I love my wife for who she is. But because of this my protective intincts will kick in from time to time.

I recall what you are dealing with with that guy. You are having to walk a line with your own integrity there. All I can say is don't sell yourself short. You can be a feminine woman and not have to cater to jerks.

Construction industry. LOL. What a great example. They can be so over the top the shock value numbs people to the point where their boundaries are moved drastically. 

I very much appreciate your candor on this topic. Some women enjoy the attention even though a husband my feel it is disrespectful. I guess the confidence and boldness of the guy is attractive.
I see a dilemma with not wanting to be the killjoy. So essentially because of the environment you have shifted your boundaries to avoid the conflict. Interesting. Not judging as much as seeing how boundaries can disappear. This is why PUA can work under the right circumstances. Surely the construction guys would not be into that!? Peer pressure can play a big role as well.

But you can see how to these guys, being bold and crashing through typical boundaries works for them. They get the vibe back from the other women that the women do like it. So this is what many of us men have always known / suspected and get beatup about. Switch from this venue to one with alcohol, music and the rest. I suggest boundaries get adjusted there for similar reasons. There may be a woman with her group who does not want to be a killjoy. I can see how that could happen. Work affairs happen a lot. But that is with sexual harrassment rules in place. There are not boundaries like this in this scenario.

So how forward are these guys? I mean is this a continual barrage of being hit on? I know to some extent it is a game but essentially the guys just want to meet some chicks and get laid. If he knows a woman is married he is not looking for anything else.

I confess if I picked my wife up at work and a guy came up and acted in a crude way with her with me standing there I would b!tch slap him. No joke. No questions asked. LOL. It would not help if she then said, OMG why did you hit Tony!

Mainly though I think you have shown that women have to deal with this stuff and they can be conflicted on how to handle it. That men being very forward can brush past usual boundaries depending on the venue. Moving friction is lower, so if a guy can rush past a few boundaries quickly with the element of shock and awe and come off as cute he is way ahead of the game. He gets points for originality. Then he can back off just a tad and start slowly stripping away the boundaries methodically.
I contend if he is very cute and attractive he has fewer boundaries to deal with than the next guy.
All he needs for encouragement is to not be clearly shutdown. Add a coy smile, a hair flip and a flirty eye look and he has no reason to stop trying at all.
Or maybe just one bad comment about her husband.

Trust me there is already a pool on which construction guy can nail the first chick from your floor. They have odds on each and everyone of you.
When they do this they are only half joking.

So how many of the women are interested in meeting up with any of these guys just for some drinks? Has it progressed to this yet? Do you think it will? I assume some of the women are single.

Anyway, sorry for going off the deep end as I can, but your scenarios are like real life stuff to deal with. Our wives deal with this stuff. You have been gracious enough to share a view we don't always get. I appreciate it.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Yes. I told her this guy was clearly "off" so most women likely gave him the shut down vibe immediately. And that he therefore interpreted normal friendliness from a woman as interest.
> 
> UOTE=Entropy3000;663310]That would have hacked me off as well. Good for you.
> 
> Did you tell your wife about it?


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a real douche.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> If a woman hits on me I have 3 basic choices:


I have different choices but this is about the female side not the male side,right?

For us it's simple. If some guy flirts with Carol she may do as she wishes except for one case where I've told her to flirt back. If some guy makes an actual proposition then she will tell him that she's not a free agent but if he'd like to call me and explain what he wants to do to my wife I might approve. Personally I'm guessing not many men will have the balls and those that do will make interesting phone calls.

In other words.. in any given situation, Carol will do as I want her to. Ergo, no issues.

Matter of fact, our particular marriage arrangement is not what makes this work. It's the fact that we both are the type to take things like "honor" and "integrity" seriously even in the worst of times. The only reason I gave Carol any instructions at all regarding what to do if a guy propositioned her is that I wanted the phone calls... or else the stories of them squirming and sputtering as they failed to "man up"... one of the two.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jeff,
Perhaps I have come across as a typical "mildly controlling" H who tells his W what to do. In the story above - Harlan - yes I still recall his name - was radiating a "stalker" vibe which I wanted to squash before he confused his 40+ pound weight/muscle and 3-4 inch height advantage as allowing him to do whatever he wanted. 

Over the last 20+ years, the other 10 or so "incidents" of guys pursuing her mainly caused me to roll my eyes. 





Jeff/BC said:


> I have different choices but this is about the female side not the male side,right?
> 
> For us it's simple. If some guy flirts with Carol she may do as she wishes except for one case where I've told her to flirt back. If some guy makes an actual proposition then she will tell him that she's not a free agent but if he'd like to call me and explain what he wants to do to my wife I might approve. Personally I'm guessing not many men will have the balls and those that do will make interesting phone calls.
> 
> ...


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Entropy3000;663124On the one hand I am lectured that I do not give credit to women for their inteligence and their ability to handle situations. I think I do get this. I believe my wife is this way. [B said:


> _I do think she is a bit too trusting of others_[/B]. I have scores of real life examples. She wants to believe in peoples goodness. Probably part of why I love her. She complements me in this way.


My husband is the same way; he sees the good in everyone and doesn't think that there are people out there with anything other than noble intentions. He said he felt sorry for me for all that has happened to me that jaded my outlook on people and relationships in general; he said he didn't under stand because he's never BEEN through anything like what I've been through with betrayal/cheating; that MOST people aren't like that. It was at that point that I not so gently remided him that his first wife had done it to him, packed up with the kids and run off with ANOTHER MAN. Can you believe that he still to this day, almost a decade later, gives her the benefit of the doubt, insisting that he is sure she really didn't do that because he had 'no definitive proof', other than his in-laws telling him to hire a PI, and his own kids telling him that there was a man staying at the house...he is in major denial. When I reminded him of that, he had a minor breakthrough, but unfortunately, it didn't last long.

This is what I'd like him to do, and MEM, you said it in your OP. Shut these outsiders down with a point to the wedding ring and a WTF??? Most can take the hint after that...


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Jeff,
> Perhaps I have come across as a typical "mildly controlling" H who tells his W what to do. In the story above - Harlan - yes I still recall his name - was radiating a "stalker" vibe which I wanted to squash before he confused his 40+ pound weight/muscle and 3-4 inch height advantage as allowing him to do whatever he wanted.
> 
> Over the last 20+ years, the other 10 or so "incidents" of guys pursuing her mainly caused me to roll my eyes.


This is an example of how even in the "modern" world you can run into something that is stone age. The GYM can bring that out I guess. Realistically in my opinion you handled this ideally. If you let this go then the next time he is more emboldened and may not back off when confronted.

So for whatever reasons many women choose to let certain behavior pass by men that can send a vibe to them that they can continue their assault. They avoid the conflict at the least. Many men enjoy the chase if not confronted by very obvious distain. The speed dating shows some of this. It is part of the initial mating ritual many humans play. Some are more subtle than others.

Add to this that even if the men are crashing through boundaries that innately women do like some or more of the attention. One would think those that do would at least send out a mixed signal. It does not take much for a guy to be encouraged by a smile in the face of an otherwise polite woman trying to discourage him.

So I can see many women feel that this is really harmless. Sometimes even a little fun. I suspect many women might even enjoy putting themselves in this type of scenario on purpose at other venues.
What I hear a lot is that women get hit on all the time. Starbucks, church and whatever and that the venue does not matter. Ok we see this here. I am told that women can handle this and do not need their hsubands to "protect" them.

So I can see where some women would say they do not encourage the men. But this is to the dismay of many husbands who view this rightly or wrongly as their wives playing along by not shutting the men down. The men may see this dance of flirtation as part of a more primitive mating ritual. The answer from many is that the husband is wrong and need to get over it and allow their wives to allow the attention if they so choose not to shut it down. I am sure there are a multitude of nuances to this nbut my take away is that not shutting a guy down will encourage most whether that is the deired effect or not. Soooooo, I would expect an intelligent woman to adapt and shut that stuff down from the get go. Just my opinion.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Facebook. Wow. It is evolving faster than we are adapting to it. 

There is now a schoolFeed app. I do have some High School contacts on FB. I am very careful with these. I do question myself a bit in having any at all. But this new app pulls it to another level. They have a yearbook and while it is about former classmates, it feels a lot like a dating site. I felt off in the gray a bit there when I looked. I decided last night this was a mistake. At least for me. I know contacting certain females there would be just wrong for my marriage. So I am opting out.

FB is an example of where people have a false sense of security and may let things really slide. Letting escalating sexual messages slide is encouraging them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Me & my husband really haven't experienced any of these type of issues in our marriage... I am sure it helps that we live in the boonies & I don't get off the farm much, just hanging with kids all day -near every day. This is my life & this is what I wanted. Neither of us has ever joined a gym. I really don't even see many people unless I have a party, I can't even see my neighbors houses. 

We literally do everything together -from digging ditches - to even grocery shopping many times. We've always been this way- since our teens. 

Everyone in our real life who knows us....sees us as "ONE"... there is no crack to invade or even entertain. This includes a couple single guy friends... 

Never been any crossing of lines..... most of our friends are Christians & Mormons, all non drinkers ...but still alot of fun, can let their hair down & we all have great conversations , could talk into the wee hours of the night at some of our parties...and yeah, sometimes that even gets into the sexual arena, joking /bantering ...but it is all in a group setting...and we are all laughing.

Rarely am I in the position to even have a man approach me alone.. I rarely go anywhere alone- I at least have 3 kids with me. One could say it happened a few yrs back at a Campground, this guy started talking to me in the pool...he knew I was with my husband .... cause he was not too far away from me -with our smaller children. 

I talked back... do I regret it? No ... I didn't see the harm, his kids were there too. We talked about the campground, kids ... my husband eventually made his way over there ... they started talking - I swam off with the kids.... I never start a conversation with a stranger (except on a forum that is- if I have a curious question).... but if someone starts a conversation with me, I am generally friendly - unless I get some Vibe they are a freak - DANGER - time to run for the hills. I can think of a few times like that in my younger years. 

I didn't feel the need to shut him down immediately , maybe some here feel that is wrong of me... but my husband didn't - he wasn't over there thinking I was crossing some line as a wife with a little conversation... and yes, we do talk about things like this, I DO ask his opinions on near everything one could imagine...... He tells me he is not concerned about me, he doesn't feel I need to be rude..... but sure.. .the intentions of the man...this is always a concern. But like I said...he was right there. It was a public place, the guy had his kids. 

It hasn't bitten me yet. 

I think we all know when it might be getting more slippery. 

We also have FB's, I don't care who my husbands adds, he doesn't care who I add...we tell each other every darn thing anyway, just cause we want too. I have helped this one younger guy from my church on his dating profile -he likes my advice- he is not after me! 

If I had to live in a world where I couldn't talk to anyone but my husband and sons, maybe some relatives. I think that would be pretty drab indeed, my husband doesn't expect me to be put into such a box.

I must admit, I am thankful my husband is the way he is. I am sure the fact neither of us has hurt the other in any way -with the opposite sex -is why we are more lenient than some are -in this area.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There *has been only one time in 22 years *where my wife adopted a certain tone of voice with me regarding female interaction. 

My oldest child has a friend. Her friend came by the house one day to meet my daughter. I was working from home by myself. The friend came to front door and said "I came by to see Oldest-Daughter-Name who told me she would be here in a couple minutes". I said "ok, come in". We spoke in the kitchen for a few minutes - maybe 10 minutes later the phone rings. Wife is calling about something, I mention daughters friend had come by to see daugther. Conversation ends. More time goes by. Finally friend says, "oh well I guess your daughter got hung up" and she leaves. 

That night my W asked what had happened. I relayed the above. And she said in a light but sharp tone "I don't like daughters friend coming to the house unplanned, when daughter 
is not home". And I just nodded and said it wouldn't happen again - meaning if friend showed up again I would call Daughter on her cell phone right then. And ummm - yeah - there was a vibe. So my W has a very well developed spidey sense. 

And - before anyone flames me - I believed the friend when she told me oldest daughter was "on the way". This was a one time only event. 




Entropy3000 said:


> Facebook. Wow. It is evolving faster than we are adapting to it.
> 
> There is now a schoolFeed app. I do have some High School contacts on FB. I am very careful with these. I do question myself a bit in having any at all. But this new app pulls it to another level. They have a yearbook and while it is about former classmates, it feels a lot like a dating site. I felt off in the gray a bit there when I looked. I decided last night this was a mistake. At least for me. I know contacting certain females there would be just wrong for my marriage. So I am opting out.
> 
> FB is an example of where people have a false sense of security and may let things really slide. Letting escalating sexual messages slide is encouraging them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dean,
I think this is key to a healthy marriage. I could not stay in a marriage where I had to police this type behavior. 



*Dean* said:


> I agree with what MEM wrote.
> 
> I know and trust my wife and what is up above in bold, is what I expect from her.
> She expects the same from me.
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

Assent?


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Jeff,
> Perhaps I have come across as a typical "mildly controlling" H who tells his W what to do.


Nope, not at all and I didn't take it that way. Even if I did, I'm quite a bit more than "mildly controlling" so it's unlikely that I'd find it a bad thing. I think things like decision making strategies and authority structures are just one of the many things a couple either works out successfully or not as they figure out how to be married.

No, I was more commenting out of a sense of perspective. I suspect what your wrote is pretty applicable to a lot of marriages. But it's not really to mine and so I added my post as "contextual material". Perhaps I shouldn't have though. "context" that is too far away from the mainstream doesn't really provide context anymore, it's just confusing.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> There *has been only one time in 22 years *where my wife adopted a certain tone of voice with me regarding female interaction.
> 
> My oldest child has a friend. Her friend came by the house one day to meet my daughter. I was working from home by myself. The friend came to front door and said "I came by to see Oldest-Daughter-Name who told me she would be here in a couple minutes". I said "ok, come in". We spoke in the kitchen for a few minutes - maybe 10 minutes later the phone rings. Wife is calling about something, I mention daughters friend had come by to see daugther. Conversation ends. More time goes by. Finally friend says, "oh well I guess your daughter got hung up" and she leaves.
> 
> ...


I totally get this one. I have two grown daughters now. I could see me doing exactly as you. And my wife behaving as your wife as well. It would have been a :slap: moment.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
I bet you help a lot of people that way. And I don't have any problem with my wife talking to other men in the way you describe. I talk to women sitting next to me on the plane - same as I talk to the men next to me. 


QUOTE=SimplyAmorous;663959]Me & my husband really haven't experienced any of these type of issues in our marriage... I am sure it helps that we live in the boonies & I don't get off the farm much, just hanging with kids all day -near every day. This is my life & this is what I wanted. Neither of us has ever joined a gym. I really don't even see many people unless I have a party, I can't even see my neighbors houses. 

We literally do everything together -from digging ditches - to even grocery shopping many times. We've always been this way- since our teens. 

Everyone in our real life who knows us....sees us as "ONE"... there is no crack to invade or even entertain. This includes a couple single guy friends... 

Never been any crossing of lines..... most of our friends are Christians & Mormons, all non drinkers ...but still alot of fun, can let their hair down & we all have great conversations , could talk into the wee hours of the night at some of our parties...and yeah, sometimes that even gets into the sexual arena, joking /bantering ...but it is all in a group setting...and we are all laughing.

Rarely am I in the position to even have a man approach me alone.. I rarely go anywhere alone- I at least have 3 kids with me. One could say it happened a few yrs back at a Campground, this guy started talking to me in the pool...he knew I was with my husband .... cause he was not too far away from me -with our smaller children. 

I talked back... do I regret it? No ... I didn't see the harm, his kids were there too. We talked about the campground, kids ... my husband eventually made his way over there ... they started talking - I swam off with the kids.... I never start a conversation with a stranger (except on a forum that is- if I have a curious question).... but if someone starts a conversation with me, I am generally friendly - unless I get some Vibe they are a freak - DANGER - time to run for the hills. I can think of a few times like that in my younger years. 

I didn't feel the need to shut him down immediately , maybe some here feel that is wrong of me... but my husband didn't - he wasn't over there thinking I was crossing some line as a wife with a little conversation... and yes, we do talk about things like this, I DO ask his opinions on near everything one could imagine...... He tells me he is not concerned about me, he doesn't feel I need to be rude..... but sure.. .the intentions of the man...this is always a concern. But like I said...he was right there. It was a public place, the guy had his kids. 

It hasn't bitten me yet. 

I think we all know when it might be getting more slippery. 

We also have FB's, I don't care who my husbands adds, he doesn't care who I add...we tell each other every darn thing anyway, just cause we want too. I have helped this one younger guy from my church on his dating profile -he likes my advice- he is not after me! 

If I had to live in a world where I couldn't talk to anyone but my husband and sons, maybe some relatives. I think that would be pretty drab indeed, my husband doesn't expect me to be put into such a box.

I must admit, I am thankful my husband is the way he is. I am sure the fact neither of us has hurt the other in any way -with the opposite sex -is why we are more lenient than some are -in this area.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SA, nothing you said seems out of line to me. People do interact. One just has to be aware of what is going on between people. There is no reason to not speak with people in a social setting. I mean that is the point of being around people. Sometimes spouses can see things we do not pick up on. In your case it sounded normal.

I think we are talking more about guys actually hitting on women. In a more obvious way. I mean if the man swam over and got into your personal space and was trying to keep the conversation private while blocking your exit then that might have been some hints at this. It really comes down to people putting out the vibe one way of another. Your interaction just sounds like normal folks with a quick chat. Nothing to this.

One way or the other your husband came by and they chatted. Good stuff.
I don't think he c0ckblocked from what you are saying. But that would have been one way for him to help you out if required. If the guy blew him off and followed you, well that would have been something else.

Body language is very telling.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

I agree that anything other than complete shutdown is disrespecting the marriage. 

Personally I tend to avoid much interaction with the opposite sex. It avoids trouble. There are times when it happens and I am pretty conscious of my body language and conversation. I don't think all guys are hitting on me, I'm good at picking up the vibes though and I have this weird habit of though normally being a fairly reserved person to one who becomes rather brash and critical in the face of someone who obviously fancies their chances. I would never dream usually of laughing in someone's face EVER but when faced with a guy who is making the moves I just look at him and think, "wow you are incredibly stupid!" and let them know.

As an aside, my OH works in the construction industry. I think Entropy's comments are a bit extreme knowing my OH and many of the guys he works with. However a bit of female eye candy does seem to entertain them for the day. The flipside is that there are a LOT of women who shamelessly make it very plain that they want to be looked at. It makes me cringe. There is something about construction workers that makes a chunk of women very brazen and shameless (not saying this is you Trenton btw!)


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

tobio said:


> I agree that anything other than complete shutdown is disrespecting the marriage.
> 
> Personally I tend to avoid much interaction with the opposite sex. It avoids trouble. There are times when it happens and I am pretty conscious of my body language and conversation. I don't think all guys are hitting on me, I'm good at picking up the vibes though and I have this weird habit of though normally being a fairly reserved person to one who becomes rather brash and critical in the face of someone who obviously fancies their chances. I would never dream usually of laughing in someone's face EVER but when faced with a guy who is making the moves I just look at him and think, "wow you are incredibly stupid!" and let them know.
> 
> As an aside, my OH works in the construction industry. I think Entropy's comments are a bit extreme knowing my OH and many of the guys he works with. However a bit of female eye candy does seem to entertain them for the day. The flipside is that there are a LOT of women who shamelessly make it very plain that they want to be looked at. It makes me cringe. There is something about construction workers that makes a chunk of women very brazen and shameless (not saying this is you Trenton btw!)


I sincerely defer to someone closer to the construction industry than I. I have known a number of construction industry folks who have moved to my industry and they stick out like a sore thumb and in general are always in trouble with HR.

I suggest my view is on the extreme side and you may be used to it and see it for what it is.

But I find your view very plausible that some women revel in this. I guess some women do enjoy a guy walking up and looking down her blouse blatantly. If she is married her husband may or may not approve. It has not been covered but are these guys approaching these women and saying crude things to them? Or just inuendo ... or what?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Entropy3000 said:


> I don't think he c0ckblocked from what you are saying. But that would have been one way for him to help you out if required. If the guy blew him off and followed you, well that would have been something else.
> 
> Body language is very telling.


I can only think of 1 time in our lives where a guy was obviously out of line in our presence... we were not married yet...walking from our car to the entrance of a Mall....this guy comes out , walks over to both of us ... and asks me out - right in front of my boyfriend - was he looking for a fight - probably ! Some people are punks . And no, my husband didn't punch him - he is not exactly the poster child for Muscle magazine - I just handled it , I can't remember what I said... we walked into the mall & that was that. Called the guy an a**hole a few times under our breath & went about our day. 

My husband would never start a fight with a stranger unless he felt I was in danger - I felt he did the right thing, I wouldn't have wanted him to jump in there trying to defend or show he is a better man - compared to what......a rodent. 

I've seen other posts on here where the women are pi**ed at their men cause they didn't do something -- I would care more about my husbands life than defending some honor -in the heat of a moment. Though many might not agree with me. We don't mess with strangers if there is a way of escape. Not worth it.

Well I am glad to see you men don't think I am some loose canon -cause I do enjoy communication ( I likely get more on forums than anywhere else) and I wouldn't want that taken from me...it is a joy to get out of the house. I can be very bold verbally - never had an issue saying what is on my mind. IF some man was going to take me down, it was cause I wanted it... or I was raped. There is no middle ground. It would never be because I am naive or too fearful to stand up for myself & shut him down. 

My husband knows this very well.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> One way or the other your husband came by and they chatted. Good stuff.
> I don't think he c0ckblocked from what you are saying. But that would have been one way for him to help you out if required. If the guy blew him off and followed you, well that would have been something else.


I have done this for my wife and she has done it for me when it was nothing more than a longer than average convesation. Usually at parties, but else where sometimes. If I am not able to tell what is going on (talking with a friend and seeing my wife across the room), I make an excuse to go see her to make sure she is fine. 

Most of the time it has not been a big deal, but one time my wife used it as an excuse to end the conversation with the guy. I trust my wife, but this guy was not heeding her signals. Me going over gave her the excuse to get out without being rude. She has done the same for me (though I am much more clueless about the signs). To us, it is something we do for the other (and honestly, for ourselves to protect our relationship). It is a way for us to "fight" for each other.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> I read lots of posts on here about online stuff.  The husband writes that his W isn't flirting with her male friends on line, THEY are flirting with her. That is a crock. If they are flirting and she doesn't shut it down hard and warn them she will break contact if they resume (and follow through on that), she IS subtly encouraging it.
> ...
> And, while my wife is not responsible for me feeling secure as a person, she is responsible for me feeling secure about the marriage itself. If she blatantly shows no respect for our marriage, she is going to get a very strong reaction from me.
> 
> ...


Very well said. It goes for women, too. Sometimes, men claim that their wives are insecure as ways to deflect attention from the fact that they are indeed behaving inappropriately with other women. Wives need to be able to call them out on their gas-lighting when it happens. 

There's a big difference between personal insecurity and insecurity about the marriage that results from one spouse's direct misbehavior.

In my experience, how one expects one's spouse to handle flirtatious attention should definitely be discussed and dealt with when it becomes a sticking point. It's too easy to go from silently encouraging to actively encouraging...

Great post.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm sure many of you are aware that my wife Morrigan went through a situation recently where her lack of an active signal that she wasn't interested encouraged a coworker. She just didn't see him probing her boundaries. She always sees the best in people and this can oftentimes get her into trouble. She also felt safe because all these interactions were in a group setting. She realizes now that she was just ignoring the warning signs. She wasn't seeing it for what it was. Unlike Trenton's construction workers this was very subtle but not subtle enough to not be noticed by her coworkers. Thankfully she has handled it well and I'm happy she is working to reinforce her boundaries. Mem, Entropy and others are right. Silence is a green light to proceed. An active rebuff is necessary because that's the only thing that works.

Edit: Here is the link to Morrigan's thread.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/42503-head-sand.html


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Hmmmm complete shutdown or you are guilty of something. I have to disagree. It seems to me an excuse for control that is rooted deeply within insecurity which I understand completely but I'm not sure I agree with.
> 
> When you're in a work environment it is more complicated. I prefer to ignore and avoid rather than confront and shutdown. Obviously there are behaviors that we have to check ourselves on. I'm new to the workplace and still learning.
> 
> On the point of enjoying being noticed...is this not human nature? I'm not going to feel guilty because I feel complimented that men still notice me. It doesn't mean I'm even remotely attracted to them or anything else besides enjoying the compliment.


I think the point is that in certain circumstances when there is not a complete shutdown it encourages the advances. It is not about feeling guilty. It seems that many men read this the wrong way. 

But I appreciate your honesty that you can enjoy these advances as validation or appreciation for you. The men know this too.

So this comes back to the thread that spun this one off. That the lady in question felt no responsibility for the obvious interest from her personal trainer. She did not make it clear that his advances were not welcome. The inference is that she enjoyed the attention. Her husband called her on it and she refuse to shut it down even when threatened by divorce. Was this real or contriver? Idunno.

But ask yourself if your husband happened by and noticed you getting some real attention while you were chatted up by the guys. What if and you can say he would not, but what if he asked you to shut that guy down next time?

So am I hearing as long as you feel your sexuallity complimented by the advances and comments it is ok? And it may be ok if the man has social or business status. Or is cute. 

I remember a few years back a worker changing out some overhead lights made a comment to one of the 20 something ladies in the office. I don't remember what it was, but it was enough for a couple of us to come by to check on her. The other guy in all seriousness asked her if that was not sexual harassment. She said if he was not so cute yes. But she was ok with it becuase she thought he was cute and had the confidence to say it to her.

Now remember we guys are told repeatedly that wives can handle this stuff. But I think the handling is not what some husband have in mind. LOL.

I am not trying to hassle you. I have enjoyed your candor and am actually trying to learn something here about how woman views this. Unfortunately what I am hearing validating all that PUA nonsense. If a woman enjoys being hit on its ok? Not wanting her to do that is controlling and insecure?

I think what you are saying is that it is easier to let slide and it is kinda nice in its own way. One thing we have not defined though is in what form the compliment is. What are we talking about?

Are we talking about staring at your chest? Are we talking abiut a whistle.
Are we talking about a guy just stopping you to talk for a minute or are we talking about something more forward? Are we talking like baby sit on my face and all its variants? Or just like what time do you get off? I suspect things that I would think are way over the line might be taken as a compliment.

What forms of compliments are worth ignoring?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Complete shutdown is a concept, obviously judgement is called for. A guy you see once a quarter at most, flirts mildly, that's one thing. You can avoid him fairly easily at subsequent quarterly meetings. A guy you see every week, or every day, that is something else. You seem inclined to twist my words and then use highly inflammatory language. "rooted deeply within insecurity". Truth is that the need/desire for extra-marital attention is typically either narcissistic or insecurity driven. In my early post I mentioned pointing at a wedding ring and giving someone a clear wtf look. That isnt contentiious it's clear. And as always there is a big gray area. I avoid comments about appearance with colleagues I don't know well. If I have a good working relationship with someone, I mig make a comment every once in a while. If you can't tell the difference between a sincere compliment, and a flirtatious move I can't help you. The former deserves a simple thank you. The latter should at best get silence. The whole premise of this thread was: don't passively let someone hit on you and then claim "you didn't encourage it, and since you didn't directly fan the flames any issue your H has is his insecurity". I bet if he passively let some 25 year old hit on him regularly for a period of time you would flip out. Does that make you insecure? 




Trenton said:


> Hmmmm complete shutdown or you are guilty of something. I have to disagree. It seems to me an excuse for control that is rooted deeply within insecurity which I understand completely but I'm not sure I agree with.
> 
> When you're in a work environment it is more complicated. I prefer to ignore and avoid rather than confront and shutdown. Obviously there are behaviors that we have to check ourselves on. I'm new to the workplace and still learning.
> 
> On the point of enjoying being noticed...is this not human nature? I'm not going to feel guilty because I feel complimented that men still notice me. It doesn't mean I'm even remotely attracted to them or anything else besides enjoying the compliment.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Clearly you aren't doing anything wrong here. Construction workers seem inclined this way. Their bosses need to step up.

QUOTE=Trenton;667735]I read the other thread. On face value it seems crazy that a wife would OK divorce over dropping a trainer but I'd need more info from the OP to really understand what was going on.

In my case, we're talking very distant cues...whistles, unwanted stares but nothing inappropriate out of the mouth (besides the whistle). If any man were to directly proposition me I'd "shut them down" very clearly. It's complimentary to the point that I recognize some men still find me attractive but it's not something I would ever pursue or allow a man to pursue. It's not complimentary in a sexual way. Believe me when I say it's not at all sexual for me.

I already said that I have learned to pretend I'm on the phone or walk quickly with my head sort of down so that I'm not approachable. I certainly would not giggle and flirt with a guy I knew thought he could get in my pants. This idea grosses me out. I have no desire for that.

I respect my husband and I tell him everything that happens and ask for his feedback and advice. I don't think he'd be worried that I'd do something but he's worried about the men doing something. He seems to think all men are after sex.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Thanks Trenton. That is clear. I get it. I just was not sure what we were really talking about. Whistles and so on, yeah I mean what are you going to do anyway?
And if it is a guy who just finds an excuse to chat you up a bit, then I could see letting this go if it does not escalate. You have a way of handling this as you leave.

The other situation you have talked about might be more close to really what this is about. I know you are wrestling with that a bit and trust you have that handled to your comfort level now.

The thread where the OP was worried about her boss going after her. That is a tough situation as there really was nothing clearly questionable in a new job situation until her brought the boss wanting to meet up with her and her kids at some skating event or whatever. No mention of spouses. That seems out of bounds. Not out of bounds enough for him to push for her to leave ... yet, but close enough to watch. If the boss is pressing her for personal reasons that is a real unfair conflict of interest for her. If he was just a co-worker she could shut him down. How much does she allow for a boss doing this? I don't think we can just tell the husband to trust his wife and that he is insecure. It would not be a proper situation.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Not that my husband has had many instances where a female was overly hitting on him....remember he is/was the quiet shy guy...but there has been a couple.... I have been amused and well, even enjoyed hearing about them! 

When he worked in a Grocery store, our dating yrs, some customer who was friendly to him for a time.....then one day came in to give him some homemade jelly she made for him....he must have felt it was a "hit" cause he replied back to her...... "I don't think my girlfriend would like that"... and I guess she put down the few groceries she had & hi -tailed it out of the store in embarrassment. Not sure if he ever seen her again. He told me later that day. I got the greatest charge out of that! 

It really doesn't bother me if some woman would come on to my husband.... It is such a rare event. Frankly I'd be happy to see that some other women found him attractive, he needs a little ego boost like that... He is not the most confident man around & he deserves it. Call me strange. MY friends tell me they would like to clone him and I love hearing that, I don't blame them. I have no insecurities in this area at all, just because of who he is & how he treats me. 

I've had more advances towards me when he is not with me, and as always, I tell him as soon as I see him... we talk about it all, neither one of us are insecure in this area. Other areas... sure..... but not in this.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

Trenton said:


> I respect my husband and I tell him everything that happens and ask for his feedback and advice. I don't think he'd be worried that I'd do something but he's worried about the men doing something. He seems to think all men are after sex.


Trenton,

Have you never watched _When Harry Met Sally_? Billy Crystal was absolutely correct. And so is your husband. All men are after sex. If you don't think so you're fooling yourself.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *Trenton said*: I respect my husband and I tell him everything that happens and ask for his feedback and advice. I don't think he'd be worried that I'd do something but he's worried about the men doing something. He seems to think all men are after sex.


We are just like this Trenton.. My husband thinks exactly as your husband does in this. He would also say men ARE looking for sex or to hook up IF they are too friendly with you. Though I don't feel every situation is like this, I just don't...

For instance...last year... I went to a Christian event- was watching 2 of our smaller kids in a SPARKS competition at a local school... it went on for hours, husband was working, I didn't know a soul-except for one of the leaders ... one of my kids Coachs struck up a conversation with me...telling me what is going on, he was the 2nd volunteer leader..

.... So I talked back, I would ask him questions... he went on to tell me his wife passed away-she had cancer , how he went to College raising 2 kids on his own while working ...we talked about many things that day....our kids, my oldest son wanting to be a YOuth Pastor, most of it was religion based/ spiritual beliefs / I let him know I was no longer a christian...... It was an enjoyable day..... we sat & ate at the same table talking.

I do not feel that man did ANYTHING out of line, not a word out of line with me, nor me with him. ANd it was enjoyable for the most part. If he had any ulterier motives (I just know he didn't), one would never know.

If a guy handles himself in that fashion..around other women... I think it is very very honorable indeed.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Trenton said:


> Mem, my husband works at an advertising agency where the entire accounts department are young 20 something, attractive women--sort of the equivalent of pharma reps in pharma as they sell the product. His job has an Xbox, foosball tournaments and they seem to celebrate with champagne toasts on a regular basis. Not to mention, when there's a pitch, his company expects him to work insane hours/weekends/etc. All in the name of stirring creativity...heh
> 
> I dislike his job because of that and the premise of what they do in general. My husband is a fantastic designer and artist but I felt that he was choosing a bad career for family and he felt that he was finding a way to turn his creative abilities into a paycheck. Both reasonable arguments.
> 
> ...


This is good stuff. He was being a jerk. Been there. My working so many hours led to me not meeting my wifes needs and having some met by the wrong person. I chalk it up to arrogance and ignorance on my part. There was only willful attempt to support my family from as far as I was seeing. I missed it though. The money was good but I was missing the true goal that I wanted. When I see a challenge I tend to put it all on my back. There is a time for that but I got obsessed with it.

I have no trouble with the words jealousy, insecurity and controlling if viewed in proper light. I think the jealous reflex can be a gut feeling that demands attention. I also agree that insecurity is a state that is not all bad if it leads to positive actions and is based on reality. Controlling is often used when folks are trying establish reasonable boundaries. All three of these can also be very bad and usually assumed to be all bad.

Yes his situation was over the top. I think blind trust is lazy and asking for it is selfish and unreasonable. Couples work better in my opinion when there is transparency and real communication. 

Anyway, you seem to have great momentum with your life. I also know you are thoughtful of your actions. That is wise in my opinion. That helps restore my faith in people as so often on here we see the train wreck. 

My primary reason for joining TAM was to expand my understanding of marriage and relationships. I have spent much of my life buried in a male dominated career. All about logic and technical stuff. So I literally have had a lot of catching up to do over the years. Just clueless in so many ways. A tradeoff I guess.

So all this information helps. I need to be aware however that what matters most is MY wife. I cannot assume that she is like or not like a lot of the folks here. I am trying to sort that out. I have been taking topics and talking with her to see her views. Which is good in and of itself. Stuff that I would not have chatted with her about before. It has been interesting. I have had blind trust of her for most of our marriage. I realize now I was lazy about it and probably taking her for granted. But all indications are that she is extremely loyal to me and has gone the extra distance in everyway I could want.


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We are just like this Trenton.. My husband thinks exactly as your husband does in this. He would also say men ARE looking for sex or to hook up IF they are too friendly with you. Though I don't feel every situation is like this, I just don't...
> 
> For instance...last year... I went to a Christian event- was watching 2 of our smaller kids in a SPARKS competition at a local school... it went on for hours, husband was working, I didn't know a soul-except for one of the leaders ... one of my kids Coachs struck up a conversation with me...telling me what is going on, he was the 2nd volunteer leader..
> 
> ...


Ok, this is something women just do not understand.

Men can act honorably. Men can in fact be honorable. But all men evaluate all women in sexual terms. I don't want to burst your bubble but its simply biology. The first thing men do even if they will not admit it is size up a woman's physical appearance. This is done for one reason and one reason only. Is this woman mating material? Its usually done in a second or two and if the answer coming back is yes then the man will look further. Sometimes its like Trenton's construction workers overtly staring at her breasts. Many times its much more subtle. Have you never caught a man that you thought was just a "friend" checking out your butt or breasts when he thought you weren't looking? If you don't believe me try this. Go into a supermarket, mall, or anywhere else you like. Go in alone and have your husband follow separately. Act like you aren't together and have your husband watch other men and their reactions towards you. You may be surprised at what he reports.

Let me ask you this. If you offered to have sex with this man do you seriously believe that he wouldn't, maybe just for a second, think about it? If you do not believe he would consider it at all you are very naive. It doesn't make him a bad person or not honorable. Just a normal human male. There have been numerous scientific studies that show men cannot help their responses. They can use reasoning power to mitigate their urges but understand that the base position all men are coming from is YES SEX PLEASE.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

First SA, to be clear at the event you were at I don't think you were wrong. I am assuming he has no way of contacting you again though and that he will not.

Life is not one way or the other. Many things exist together. He may very well be an honorable man. But he did make a connection with you. Fine. That can be good in some ways and not in others all at the same time. This was just two people talking. It was also a man and a woman talking. It was also a speed date. It was also just socializing. You both enjoyed this. He obviously took a liking to you. He is no doubt lonely. He is single. He was absolutely sizing you up one way or the other at least n an automatic way. It does not make him a predator. It makes him a man. A single man. 

Remember the brain chemicals. You guys talking gave both of you a little shot of Oxytocin with each other. We get this from friends and relatives. It makes us feel secure and trust the other person. Lower our barriers. You can be sure if he invested time with you for the day he got some amount of Dopamine. If he has no woman in his life it was probably more significant. Ok fine. Nothing wrong with this in and of itself.

But Beowulf is correct, when "normal" men that have a good amount of testoterone flowing in thier veins there is ALWAYS a sexual component. It does not have to be the dominant aspect but it is there. Lurking. All intentions can be good. But yes if you put some further contact on the table he may very well have taken you up on it. It is possible that he would not pursue a married woman. But his brain would evaluate it first. He would be very tempted no matter his final choice.

Again in no way am I critisizing you at all. I am just pointing out that in this scenario there was at least in the background for this guy, because he is a guy and especially because his wife is gone a sexual component. He may very well have chatted all day with another guy and enjoyed it. He got that with you BUT he also had a nice chat with a woman and he enjoyed it for that.


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## seekinghelpnow (Apr 8, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> If a woman hits on me I have 3 basic choices:
> 1. Shut it down. I can do this in any number of ways up to and including terminating all interaction with her. Generally, pointing directly at your wedding ring and giving them a WTF look works like a champ.
> 2. Remain carefully neutral. This is just wrong as it implies that you are perfectly fine with the other person continuing to pursue you. BAD message, bad behavior. It would be unacceptable to my W if I did it, and it is not acceptable to me for her to do it.
> 3. Encourage it. Flirt back.
> ...


I agree totally and recently dealt with this with my H.... he didn't shut it down which made me feel totally insecure and although it wasn't visable to me that he was encouraging it, by doing nothing, it was not stopping it and allowed the other female to escalate things.... It just made me feel so much better seeing your post, because I tried to explain this very thing to my husband and he wasn't getting it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Beowulf said:


> Ok, this is something women just do not understand.
> 
> Men can act honorably. Men can in fact be honorable. But all men evaluate all women in sexual terms. I don't want to burst your bubble but its simply biology. The first thing men do even if they will not admit it is size up a woman's physical appearance. This is done for one reason and one reason only. Is this woman mating material? Its usually done in a second or two and if the answer coming back is yes then the man will look further. Sometimes its like Trenton's construction workers overtly staring at her breasts. Many times its much more subtle. Have you never caught a man that you thought was just a "friend" checking out your butt or breasts when he thought you weren't looking? If you don't believe me try this. Go into a supermarket, mall, or anywhere else you like. Go in alone and have your husband follow separately. Act like you aren't together and have your husband watch other men and their reactions towards you. You may be surprised at what he reports.


 Beowulf....but I DO understand, there is no bubble to burst here with me.. I do not feel I am naive in any way on this issue.... I know how men think... they are doggish.....biologically they simply can not help it - due to the effects of testosterone (even been there myself undressing every man I seen out & about- I felt like I stepped inside the body of a raging teenage male, even thought I had a sex addiction)... Oh believe me.... I get it. I am near embarrased to go on about it...how very well I get it -cause I don't think alot of females can relate to what I felt. 

.....and I agree with your every word here. No grocery store experiments necessary... my husband is always amused when he sees a man checking me out when we are out & about...he even points them out to me. Like I always say on here...we are extremely transparent with each other. 

But I ask..... what does that mean to us women....Just cause I get this... understand this.. should I be smarter and NOT ingage in any communication... what really IS this line in the sand some of you men expect here? 

It would never be acceptable to me to banish all communication with men -just because I am aware of this.





> Let me ask you this. If you offered to have sex with this man do you seriously believe that he wouldn't, maybe just for a second, think about it?


 His few seconds thoughts ...yeah probably...like you say ...he can't help that.....but NO...I do not believe THIS MAN was the type to engage in anything -outside of his beliefs. My husband is not even a christian and I know he wouldn't . We can't control our thoughts...and some of our fantasies -we may not want to control even... But REASON and our BELIEFS..... if we are are a man or women or integrity...these are our boundaries. 

I believe Unbelievable explained it best on this thread --how the male brain works.... http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/24519-way-men-really-think-12.html



> *Unbelievable said*: I have already said that fixating on a woman (ie, imaging an actual sex act with her or fantasizing about her stripping) is a bit creepy and, of course, that is a choice. My point is that there is an immediate "yes", "no", "Maybe if I was drunk" sort of selection going on for the briefest of nanoseconds in every male brain (at least the straight ones). Having been male for nearly 50 years, I have been "listening" to "yep", "nope", "no way in hell", etc every day for at least 40 years. Of the thousands of guys I have worked and lived closely with, they all seem to have the same thing going on. Naturally, only a creton would attempt to act on those thoughts and one would be sort of a perv to dwell on the subject and create disgusting mental scenarios. I'm a Christian and I'm married. Neither experience rendered me blind or oblivious to my surroundings. The OP asked how men thought and I've given the most honest answer I can.


 I asked my own Husband this same question..... in another post further down...


> Here is how he explained it ....
> 
> 1st he looks at the face, this will not sound nice but he says "if she is dog faced, no sense in going any further", then he automatically puts them into baskets >>> "Doable" ..."Maybe".... or "ewwww NEVER". He said IF there is a CHOICE in these matters, it would be to LOOK AWAY immediately, but he admitted he doesn't want to do that, "it is no fun". Then here is his next mental thoughts within seconds "I love my wife, STD's, I love my kids , STD's" and that is the end of the fleeting fantasy


 So I have no doubt all men are like this...having these urging automatic thought patterns..... but still... Not all would jump to have sex, or do something out of their character...anyway, isn't this a bit silly -as it is not like I was ready to jump his bones. (I was not even physically attracted to him- not my type). 

No matter how much of a fantasy may be dancing in other's head.... and I do understand this could be going on... his being single could have even added to such a fantasy (Enthrophy's fine point). 

But I still don't think you are suggesting I did anything wrong -- or does that change since I AM aware of how men think -does that suddenly make me GUILTY of a wrong?


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## Beowulf (Dec 7, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> But I still don't think you are suggesting I did anything wrong -- or does that change since I AM aware of how men think -does that suddenly make me GUILTY of a wrong?


No, you absolutely did nothing wrong. As long as you are aware that to every man you talk to you are a potential sex partner and your boundaries reflect that you are fine. I think some women do not understand that and then are surprised when the hits keep on coming. Let me ask you, if he started subtly flirting with you or if he said something like "my that is a nice blouse and you wear it well" how would you have reacted? If you know that you'd have put up your walls of protection and told him that he was being inappropriate then no problem. If you chose to ignore it and continued in conversation that is a problem because now you are encouraging him, at least in his mind.

Men may be subtle in their moves but it takes a brick to the skull to get them to back off sometimes.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Entropy3000 said:


> First SA, to be clear at the event you were at I don't think you were wrong. I am assuming he has no way of contacting you again though and that he will not.


 No way of contact - other than IF he was to ask the other leader details about me-that leader is the one who takes our 2 kids to all the Sparks meetings, a neighbor down the road. Just not something that would happen though. 



> It was also a speed date. It was also just socializing. You both enjoyed this. He obviously took a liking to you. He is no doubt lonely. He is single. He was absolutely sizing you up one way or the other at least n an automatic way. It does not make him a predator. It makes him a man. A single man.


 A speed date ? this seems a bit much in my opinion. I am not really even sure what that means exactly. 

All the rest of your thoughts in your post....no disagreements here.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> No way of contact - other than IF he was to ask the other leader details about me-that leader is the one who takes our 2 kids to all the Sparks meetings, a neighbor down the road. Just not something that would happen though.
> 
> A speed date ? this seems a bit much in my opinion. I am not really even sure what that means exactly.
> 
> All the rest of your thoughts in your post....no disagreements here.


If you look back as what has been discussed it is a speed date for the man. He automatically assesses the woman one way of another. That has already been agreed to. I am saying that people assess each other initially in a small amount of time. I am not saying you dated this man.

I am assuming you are familiar with what speed dating is? Now I agree this is meant for people to meet eah other to decide if they want to see each other again and I an not inferring that in your case. I just mean that people evaluate each other in many ways when they strike uo a conversation. A man wil evaluate the woman as a woman. Again this may not even really be a consciuos thing.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Beowulf said:


> Let me ask you, if he started subtly flirting with you or if he said something like "my that is a nice blouse and you wear it well" how would you have reacted? If you know that you'd have put up your walls of protection and told him that he was being inappropriate then no problem. If you chose to ignore it and continued in conversation that is a problem because now you are encouraging him, at least in his mind.
> 
> Men may be subtle in their moves but it takes a brick to the skull to get them to back off sometimes.



No, I don't know what speed dating is - have heard the term, but not familiar with how that works. 

If some subtle flirting was put upon me, I do not believe I would be silent, I would come up with something in response..... Maybe a "hmmm I think you need to be checking out some of the blouses of these single women around here". It would be something very honest- turning another direction.... not silence, or encouragement..possibly turning it into a question..."do you not have a woman in your life?" 

I can't see me getting all rude in a huff, give him an disgusted look, point to my wedding ring - run off, keeping my back to him the rest of the day - I simply know I would not respond like that. 

I would respond in a communicative manner - and would likely continue to do so -until I got a sense ...he is not reasonable... he is disrespectful... or he threw another obvious "hit" -after my responses in a kind fashion to invite our conversing -but with a boundary attached. 

I wouldn't want to purposely STIR. 

But there is no Halo here.... I can't sit here & say I've always handled myself as I likely should have. Are any of us perfect? I would say my bar of disrespect is a little lower even - before I hi tail it out of there... before I might put on a verbal brake- that is more deliberate- more brickish. Never to the point of anything that would hurt my husband though. There is no conversations I've had I would need to hide from him, or have I...I speak the truth in this. I am also one to give details. 

We have talked about these things.... I do have a very sensitive conscience... I still need to look myself in the mirror everyday.....my feelings always on my sleeve, it can't be helped. If I do something in my heart against him .... I can't swallow it....(my record is 3 days)...we are talking being together for 30 yrs here... he knows this... thankfully it is a rare thing ... this is what keeps me in line.

When it comes to the "Brick to the skull", I can be a pretty good thrower... never been one afraid to say what is on my mind (a blessing & a curse).... In my teens... It was a bit overkill to tell every boy who pushed /flirted a little too much... ...he would have to marry me to get me in bed....I wasn't into games & those were my boundaries. My husband was the only 1 to stick around & honor that. 

Even then, I expected that is all guys want. He proved to me some are different, they want more... the whole package deal.


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