# Walking on eggshells



## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Our backstory...DH is the emotional & needy one in our relationship, I am the quiet & independent one. We both admit that he is the "woman" in our marriage and I am the "man". I am very black & white, he is everything in between. He wants to talk and analyze everything to resolution, I am not a great talker and feel like we keep fighting the same things over & over. He's the talker, I'm the fixer. I can get angry and get over it, he cannot get over anything. In the love languages he is words of affirmation, I am acts of service. Our innate personalities are polar opposite. 

What brings me here today is that I can do nothing right. One of his chief complaints is that I don't make him, or time for him, a priority. I have been trying very hard lately. I set up babysitting and asked him to go to a movie. He told me that is a lazy way to date my husband, he will stay home with our children and I could go alone. I told him that defeats the purpose. One week later he told me to set up babysitting, we were going to do something together....and we went to a movie! We have a counseling appt on Friday which will be done at 4:30. I told him I was going to see if the babysitter could stay extra and maybe we could go for a drink, happy hour, early dinner thing. He said no...who wants to eat dinner at 4:00!! I have a moms night out scheduled for Saturday for a local charity event. He is working Sat night. I have our children taken care of and me going out doesn't affect him in any way, he'll be at work the whole time. I told him about it a month ago and that I wasn't sure I was going. Last night I brought it up and he said "oh, and when were you going to tell me about this?" Um...aren't we talking about this becuase I brought it up? I asked (sarcastically) if I needed his permission, he said no. I know he was feeling put out that I'm 'making time for a girls night'. Yes, I've had a couple girl nights lately. I've tried to make dates for us. I wish he would schedule some time with the guys, it would take some pressure off me to be the one to make him happy. 

He is so unhappy and I feel that there is nothing I can do right. I am finding that people disappoint him and there is no coming back from that. He has cut himself off from his entire family because they won't change in the ways he wants them to. He has cut himself off from friends because they have disappointed him. He says he is terrified of abandonment, and that I will leave him. He's creating a self fulfilling prophesy. 

I'm so unhappy in my marriage. I feel like I cannot make this man happy. He desperately needs some things that do not come naturally to me, but I try while he sits back and keeps score. He complains, but then turns me down. I have two young kids. I'm staying because of them. I don't know where to turn.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> He is so unhappy and I feel that there is nothing I can do right. I am finding that people disappoint him and there is no coming back from that. He has cut himself off from his entire family because they won't change in the ways he wants them to. He has cut himself off from friends because they have disappointed him. He says he is terrified of abandonment, and that I will leave him. He's creating a self fulfilling prophesy.


My second husband did this exact thing to his family! His way of thinking is that his way of thinking is the ONLY way of thinking, and that anyone who says, thinks, or does differently is WRONG and STUPID. So not only did he push me away until I finally divorced him, he has cut his son out of his life, and also his siblings. He has no friends. (I too used to wish that he would get some friends and go out once in a while) He lives now as a hermit with our two dogs, and does nothing with his life but go to work. I can only assume that he is satisfied with this life, because he hasnt spoken to me in years. 

It sounds like you are trying to do things to make him happy and make things work. He is sabotaging you at every turn. Maybe you can get him to agree to marriage counseling with you.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

It sounds like your husband has the expectation that it is everyone else's responsibility to "make" him happy. As I just told another poster here, happiness is an inside job. Your husband is unhappy with himself. Apparently, he also wants to make darned sure he is right; people DO disappoint him, because they are not reading his mind and fulfilling his need for happiness on his terms.

He is cutting everyone out of his life. I'm married to someone like this. However, my husband is an alcoholic, so isolating is often their way of operating. Has your husband always been somewhat of a loner? Did the two of you go out and enjoy it before you were married? In hindsight, were there any red flags prior to marriage?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> Our backstory...DH is the emotional & needy one in our relationship, I am the quiet & independent one. We both admit that he is the "woman" in our marriage and I am the "man".


Without knowing much about your situation, if this is true, then arranging dates and trying to fix things like you are makes a ton of sense to you, but will barely register for him.

You said that you understand his needs are "words of affirmation", yet your entire post is about how unhappy he is, what a horrible person he is, etc.

You may be right about all his flaws, but what it sounds like he really needs is someone to tell him that he's a wonderful guy and you want to be with him, whatever it takes. Tell him that you'd like to go to marriage counseling so you can learn to better understand what he needs.

Stop trying to fix this logically because it won't work.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal...we have always had problems in the communication dept. We did do things early on, but with kids now, our lives are more family oriented. There were probably red flags in the beginning that I didn't see or overlooked. He wasn't what I would call a loner, but I have more friends, I am more social and keep close to my family. I have encouraged him to keep friendships, be more social (less judgmental), and stay connected to his family but I can't do it all for him. People always seem to disappoint him in one way or another. He can't accept that everyone makes mistakes or may not do/think/feel the same way he does. He views the simplest things as a personal affront or attack. 

3xnocharm...we have been in MC on & off for years & have an appointment on Friday. This is his first time going in a year or two. I've been going for a couple months now because he told me I'm the one with the problem. I don't know whether to look forward to it, or dread it.

Acorn, for the most part you have hit the nail on the head. I realize he needs words, and I realize I am deficient in that category. If it came so easily and naturally to me I wouldn't be here. I am trying, and I am feeling beat down. I don't believe I'm complaining that he's a horrible person. I don't feel that. 

I do tell him he's a great husband, a great father, and I often thank him for working so hard for us....whether I feel it's true or not (he is a great father!). Do I tell him & build him up often enough? Probably not. We've been married 15 years and I'm feeling pretty beat down. When I do try he tells me it's only because he asked me to. He wants me to initiate sex more often...I do and he turns me down because I'm doing it only because he asked. He wants me to schedule time for us...I do it, and he tells me I'm lazy, the time isn't right, and to go by myself. He would like some appreciation & gratitude...I say thank you for unloading the dishwasher, working so hard for our family, taking the kids so I could get something accomplished, and he tells me to stop because it makes him feel bad. I was told that I bombard him because I will start talking with no preface...so I start prefacing. Now I'm told I talk too much, use too many words, he wants me to just get to the point. I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't.

I know I'm not an easy person to live with. I am very affectionate, demonstrative, can and will DO anything for him. I am acts of service. He knows that vacuuming the house means more to me than writing me a note or saying I look nice. He has vacuumed twice in our 15 year marriage. This is where my core dissatisfaction lies....I accept that about him. He will not accept me. He will write me love notes and not vacuum. He will speak to me in HIS language. I accept that he will not put dishes in the dishwasher. 

Am I telling him he's wonderful and I can't live without him? No. Because frankly that's not true. There is a lot more but how can I put 15 years in one post? I posted a couple weeks ago in the Private Members section...http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/71831-afraid-my-true-feelings.html That post deals more with our current circumstances and how I have lost respect for him. If you can read that it may shed more light. This also isn't my first time here. My profile will lead you to my posts from the last couple years.

I simply don't know where to go from here. I am tired of doing the "wrong" thing every time. Or doing what he asks and being told I don't have the appropriate feelings or motivation. I have always felt that I am not enough for him, and I'm afraid of the path those feelings are leading me down.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

> [Our backstory...DH is the emotional & needy one in our relationship, I am the quiet & independent one. We both admit that he is the "woman" in our marriage and I am the "man". I am very black & white, he is everything in between. He wants to talk and analyze everything to resolution, I am not a great talker and feel like we keep fighting the same things over & over./QUOTE]
> 
> I don't believe this is a "man woman thing" .Its more like an "avoid sweep it under the rug " thing and a "come to and agreement even if its agree to disagree thing".
> 
> ...


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

He sounds very passive aggressive and borderline or maybe depressed. 
What does your MC say about these things?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I respect your honesty. Granted, I am only getting your side of the story. But my gut tells me you are willing to take your share of the blame for the breakdown of the marriage.

Your husband sounds like he is very depressed. It also sounds like he is harboring a great deal of resentment; thus, anger about his expectations not being met.

I'm not advocating divorce, but do you think it may be time for you to separate for awhile? I know that is easier said than done in an economy that looks downright bleak out here in "but-it's-dry-heat!" Arizona. 

Still, I had to walk out when the odds were stacked against me. However, I did not have children at home to consider. 

Speaking of children ... how is your husband with the kids? Does he also have high expectations for their behavior, grades, school activities, interaction with him?

How are the children interacting with dad, or are they?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I am very black & white, he is everything in between.


Perhaps so, MsStacy, but you seem to be describing the reverse: a man who does black-white thinking nearly all the time when it comes to his interpersonal relationships with others. If so, the B-W thinking will be evident in the way he categorizes everyone as "all good" (i.e, with me) or "all bad" (i.e., against me). Moreover, he will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other -- in just ten seconds -- based on a minor statement or action (real or imagined). 

This all-or-nothing thinking also would be evident in his frequent use of extreme expressions such as "you always..." and "you never...." This B-W thinking typically occurs in people who do not have a strong sense of who they are because, in early childhood, a trauma prevented them from developing a strong integrated sense of self. 

The result is that they are extremely uncomfortable with experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, and any other grey areas in their relationships with other people. They therefore will shoehorn everyone into a black or white box so they know how to deal with them. Not surprisingly, this type of thinking is a disaster when it comes to LTRs. This is why these folks usually have no close long-term friendships (unless the person lives a long distance away).


> People always seem to disappoint him in one way or another. He can't accept that everyone makes mistakes or may not do/think/feel the same way he does. He views the simplest things as a personal affront or attack.


Like I said, you are describing a man who is intolerant of grey areas, i.e., real people who have a mixture of good and bad traits. Because the middle ground or grey area is not an option to him, he will recategorize someone as "all bad" and "against me" on the slightest provocation (real or imagined). And because that happens in seconds and the person is now "all bad," he won't believe any explanation or apology that is offered.


> I can do nothing right.


Of course you can't. If you were doing things right, it would mean that HE has to take responsibility for some of the mistakes and shortcomings. Owning up to his mistakes, however, is very painful for a man who does B-W thinking because he applies it to himself as well as to others. 

The result is that any recognition of making a mistake does NOT mean he is a basically good guy who just happened to slip up. Rather, it means he is "all bad." Indeed, as harsh as he is in judging other people, he likely is much harsher on himself. Seeing his own mistakes therefore would be very painful for him. This, then, likely is why his subconscious protects him from seeing too much of reality by projecting all mistakes and bad feelings onto you, allowing him to believe -- at a conscious level -- that you are the bad guy.


> He says he is terrified of abandonment, and that I will leave him.


The fear of abandonment usually goes hand in hand with strong B-W thinking. I say this because -- as Diwali recognizes above -- both of these traits are in the list of nine symptoms for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. Indeed, the very first symptom on the BPD list is "Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment."

It also is interesting that "Walking on Eggshells" -- the title of your thread -- is the most common complaint of the abused partners who are living with BPDers (i.e., those having strong BPD traits). This is why _Stop Walking on Eggshells_ is the name of the best-selling BPD book that is targeted to those abused partners.

Importantly, I am not suggesting that your H has full-blown BPD. Rather, I am simply suggesting that his BPD traits may be at a stronger level than is usual for the general population. I say "usual" because every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means we all exhibit the traits to some degree.

Moreover, I am not suggesting that your H has a lifetime problem with such traits. Because we all have these traits to some degree, they can flare up for a few months, or even a few years, when we are under great stress or are experiencing a hormone change (as can occur during a midlife change, puberty, or pregnancy). This is why, for a strong pattern of BPD traits to be considered a _lifetime _problem, it must be persistent. That is, the strong traits would not disappear for years and then suddenly appear at the end of a 15-year marriage, right after a H loses his job. A flareup, however, could appear in just that way.

I therefore suggest you read about the nine BPD traits to see if most of these warning signs sound very familiar. If they do, I would suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. An easy place to start reading is my description of the traits in my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you. Take care, MsStacy.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

Uptown, I was just doing a search for your list of hell to give that link to this poster. She used the keywords - 'walking on eggshells' and 'abandonment' that made me think her husband has BPD.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

Your H sounds very much like mine. Please, please read what Uptown has posted above and follow his advice. In addition to what he posted, I'd add in reading this article about Borderline Waifs: BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. It's written from the perspective of the wife being the "waif", but you can easily substitute genders...see if your H fits the descriptions in this most enlightening article.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Uptown, I am so glad you are here. You came to mind after I made my second post. Thank you so much for coming here to answer questions the OP'er has posed that are over my head.

MsStacy ... PLEASE carefully consider what Uptown has written. It may be the key to the answers you seek. Uptown is THE expert on this subject. I am very, very grateful he is here to help us!


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

MsStacy,

Would it be accurate to suggest that you are your husband's primary social outlet (maybe even almost exclusively)? If that's the case, you aren't just his wife, you're his entire support network. If you and he are at odds, it'd be a lot more threatening to him. You'd have someone else to talk to. You might be all he's got besides work. If he's distant from his own family and you have to "wish" he'd go out with his friends, maybe he really doesn't have much in the way of close friends. I'm kinda in that boat. If my wife left me, died, or just got pissed and didn't talk to me for a while, I'd be screwed (at least for a while). She's really the only person I talk to (other than TAMS). He might be able to better roll with the occasional domestic drama if he had a fishing buddy or two. He may have stuck all his eggs in your basket.


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> MsStacy,
> 
> Would it be accurate to suggest that you are your husband's primary social outlet (maybe even almost exclusively)? If that's the case, you aren't just his wife, you're his entire support network. If you and he are at odds, it'd be a lot more threatening to him. You'd have someone else to talk to. You might be all he's got besides work. If he's distant from his own family and you have to "wish" he'd go out with his friends, maybe he really doesn't have much in the way of close friends. I'm kinda in that boat. If my wife left me, died, or just got pissed and didn't talk to me for a while, I'd be screwed (at least for a while). She's really the only person I talk to (other than TAMS). He might be able to better roll with the occasional domestic drama if he had a fishing buddy or two. He may have stuck all his eggs in your basket.


I totally agree with this 100%.Its one of the contributing factors men die earlier.Eggs in one basket.NOT sperm in one basket.But men tend to have less close relationships emotionally or any kind of "network" formed than women.Even women (of course this is always brought up but its true) in the hollocost had a better chance of survival than the men.She formed relationships.Strong ones.Not in one "basket".More women are depressed but less likely to committ suicide and on and on.Its all about having relationships.

I mean I look at myself.(just one piece of the world) .But I am close and bonded not just to my husband.But my adult children my parents , my husbands parents ,my siblings ,my friends...My husband is bonded to me and through me he is maybe connected too a few of them.But that is THROUGH me.

BLAHH!


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Uptown, I cannot thank you enough for the time and thought you put into your reply. I truly appreciate you for the eye opening information you shared with a weary stranger. What you have described makes so much sense. I have skimmed over the links, articles and info you guys mentioned. The way it is described, he is definitely a B&W thinker. I always thought of myself as black & white because I'm either feeling good or not, happy or not, I like it or I don't...I'm not the passionate, emotional one. The way B&W is explained is him!! Some others...he over eats. He will binge, and then sometimes (although rarely) purge. He believes he is hiding that from me. He is about 40 lbs over weight, but I'm told that is because of my cooking. He lies....often. Sometimes to make himself look better or more important, sometimes about the most stupid & inconsequential things. He has many of the traits you referenced me to. 

Waking Up To Life, I read that article. At the bottom there is a link to another article written about BPD men. 
THE MALE BORDERLINE - Surviving the Crash after your Crush. All of this information is very helpful. 

I'm still reading & researching. What I am learning is making so much sense. The funny thing...his job is as a Mental Health Tech in the Behavioral Health Unit at the hospital. He comes home and tells me about clients in the unit with BPD and how difficult his night was. I know he's not to this diagnosable degree, but I find it ironic. 

Where do I go from here? I don't know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I am researching and trying to understand my husband a bit. I just read an article (copied below) that sheds so much light for me. #1-4 are spot on. 

I have always known that he relies very heavily on me for his personal happiness and that I will never be able to provide that for him. I am struggling with my feelings for him, which is exacerbating the conflict right now. I am tired & weary. He needs to be built up, supported, told & shown he is loved, and I don't have the strength right now. We are coexisting in the house the last couple days. He had a vasectomy on Tuesday. For three days he's been laid up in front of the TV. I know he wants to talk, but I just don't have the energy. 


Why BPD relationships are so complicated

If you care about someone with borderline personality disorder, keep these four facts in mind:
To Help Your Family Member, You Must Help Yourself First
Your physical and emotional health, and the health of your relationship, partly depends upon your willingness to look after your own needs, such as taking time away, setting limits with love, and having a hearty life of your own separate from your borderline family member.
You Can Improve Your Life Even If Your Family Member Doesn’t Change
Right now, you probably feel trapped, confused, and powerless. But it doesn’t have to be this way—at least to the extent it is right now. It may seem hard to imagine, but the tools and techniques described in this web site and in The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder: New Tools and Techniques to Stop Walking on Eggshells that will enable you to feel better and more in control of your life regardless of what your loved one does or doesn’t do.
It Takes Only One Person to Fundamentally Change a Relationship 
It takes two to have a relationship. But each person is in charge of 50 percent. Right now, you may think that your family member has power over you and can “make” you do and feel things you don’t want to do and feel. This is false. When you take more control of your own reactions and make decisions true to yourself, the dynamic of your relationship will change.
Most Borderline Behavior Isn’t Deliberate 
Without education about BPD, family members take their family member’s behavior personally—especially if the BP is of the higher-functioning invisible type. This leads to much unnecessary suffering, because BPD behavior isn’t willful. Think of it this way: Why would anyone choose to be in situations that make them angry, unhappy, or otherwise in distress?

Why Are BPD Relationships So Complicated?
Some features of borderline personality disorder strike at the heart of what makes us able to have good interpersonal relationships. Some of these features are:
Low emotional intelligence
There’s more than one way to be smart. In addition to the kind of intelligence you can measure on an IQ test, there’s emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence is about monitoring emotions—both your own and those of the people around you—and then using this knowledge to guide your thinking and actions. Many people think BPs don’t have empathy. They do—it’s just that their own emotions are so intense they can be oblivious to the emotions of those around them. They’re like a drowning person who grabs on to a would-be rescuer and pulls them both down.
Impulsive aggression
Impulsive aggression is what happens when the other shoe drops, when the eggshells break, and the emotional roller coaster takes a 180-degree turn. It can be triggered by immediate threats of rejection or abandonment paired with frustration. The aggression can be turned inward (self-injury, suicide) or turned outward (raging, verbal abuse, domestic violence).
Impulsive aggression is associated with a biological “tug-of-war” between the logical and emotional aspects of the brain, in which the logical side loses. These aggressive tendencies can be inherited.
Think of impulsive aggression as a “border-lion,” a ferocious beast that is uncaged when BPs’ emotions are so strong and overwhelming they can no longer be contained. It is not exclusive to BPD, but a component of several impulse control disorders such as intermittent explosive disorder.
Whether the border-lion is turned inward or outward, it is one of the top barriers keeping BPs and those who love them from developing the close, trusting relationship each partner yearns for.
It’s going to be tough, but try to hold fast to the notion that your family member and the border-lion are not one and the same.
Rejection sensitivity
In addition to fearing abandonment, people with BPD are overly sensitive to rejection. They anxiously await it, see it when it isn’t there, and overreact to it whether it’s there or not. This is why small slights—or perceived small slights—can cause major messes.
Child-Like Characteristics
People with BPD may seem as mature as any other adult in social or professional situations. But when it comes to coping with strong emotions, they can be stuck at a child’s developmental level.
Their sadness may be similar to the way a child feels at being left out by the other kids. When angry, it could be the anger of a teen, outraged at a parent’s refusal to let them attend a party. (As in, “You’re ruining my life!”) There can be a child-like ever-present vulnerability personified in Princess Diana and Marilyn Monroe (both of whom had many classic BPD traits).

Five Familiar “Fights” (Relationship Behavioral Patterns)
Having a borderline loved one means having that “it’s déjà vu all over again” feeling much of the time. You may feel get stuck in these five familiar behavioral patterns, or “fights,” with no clue about what’s happening, how you got there, or how to get out.
1. The “It’s Your Fault” Fight
“Once my BP girlfriend snapped at me for looking through some DVDs the wrong way. I asked her in a very even tone of voice, “What are you getting upset about?” For the rest of the day she sulked and gave me the silent treatment.”
For BPs to admit to themselves or others that anything about them is less than perfect would be admitting that they are defective.
2. The “Heads I Win, Tails You Lose” Fight
“My mother is the master of double-binds. When I call her as soon as I get home at the end of my day, she is short and rude because she is in the middle of something. But if I wait until later in the evening to call, she says in an accusatory way, “You’ve been home for how long? And you didn’t call me?”
You know you’re in a no-win scenario when you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. People with BPD are consistently inconsistent.
3. The “Projection” Fight
“There’s nothing wrong with me. There’s something wrong with you!
People often try to avoid feeling bad about their own unpleasant traits, behaviors, or feelings by attributing them (often in an accusing way) to someone else. This is a common defense mechanism called projection. people with BPD take it to the extreme.
4. The “I Hate You—Don’t Leave Me” Fight
I am totally confused. My BP boyfriend broke up with me on Tuesday, then on Friday wanted to know what I was doing over the weekend. I remember one night, we had a great time together and had great sex. Then he started a fight over nothing the next morning.”
When people get too close, people with BPs feel engulfed. In turn, they distance themselves to avoid feeling controlled. But then BPs feel neglected, even abandoned. So they try to get closer again, and the cycle repeats.
5. The “Testing” Fight
Before I recovered from BPD I would tell people, “I’m just testing you to see how much you love me.” I knew that I couldn’t start with a full-blown BP rage. So I started softly and slowly. With each test I set forth and the person passed, I upped the ante and said, “If you loved me, you would do this or that.” People usually accepted the most outrageous and inappropriate behavior to maintain the relationship.
You might think that once the non-BP passes the tests, their borderline family member would feel more secure. But that doesn’t happen. Instead, people with BPD think, “Why would a healthy, normal person take the abuse? There must be something wrong with them.”
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I was a little hopeful after counseling last week. I won't bore you with the details, but counselor called DH on a couple things that I thought were big. 

A week later and I'm back to feeling miserable and hopeless. I even confided to my mother today that I really don't know if I can stay in this marriage. I love my husband as the father of my children.....and that's about it. 

The only two things keeping me here are my children, and the thought of the heartache I would cause him by leaving. He has alienated himself from family & friends, if I leave he will have no one.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> I was a little hopeful after counseling last week. ...A week later and I'm back to feeling miserable and hopeless.


MsStacy, I'm sorry to hear that the MC is not going well. I am not surprised, however. If your H has strong BPD traits, his issues go far beyond the lack of communication skills that MCs teach. My experience, while taking my BPDer exW to three MCs, was that MC was a total waste of time until a BPDer has had at least several years of IC to work on the more serious issues. 

Moreover, my experience was that IC also is a total waste of time if the BPDer does not have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to take advantage of it. Very few BPDers do. Certainly, my exW did not. I spent a small fortune taking her to six different psychologists in weekly visits for 15 years -- all to no avail. She just played mind games with them, as far as I can tell.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Uptown, I'm assuming that since your wife is an ex, you view marriage with a BPD spouse as pretty hopeless?

I'm sure feeling that way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> Uptown, I'm assuming that since your wife is an ex, you view marriage with a BPD spouse as pretty hopeless?


If he has strong BPD traits, yes. Granted, there are a few high functioning BPDers who have the self awareness and ego strength needed to confront their issues and work hard on them. For those folks, there are excellent treatment programs available all over this country. But, sadly, it is rare for HF BPDers to stay in such programs long enough to make a difference.

I caution, however, that BPD symptoms are not something -- like a disease -- that one "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, they are basic traits that -- like body height, sense of humor, and jealousy -- we all have to some degree. Hence, at issue is NOT whether he exhibits the nine BPD traits. Of course he does. We all do. At issue, then, is whether he exhibits them at a strong and persistent level.

Not having met the man, I certainly do not know the answer to that question. I nonetheless am confident that you can learn to spot any strong BPD traits that are occurring. There is nothing subtle about traits such as temper tantrums, verbal abuse, and black-white thinking.


> The funny thing...his job is as a Mental Health Tech in the Behavioral Health Unit at the hospital.


The vast majority of BPDers -- even those with full-blown BPD -- are high functioning. This means that they interact well with business associates, clients, patients, casual friends, and total strangers. The reason is that none of those folks pose a threat to their two fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause engulfment. The result is many HF BPDers are found excelling in demanding professions such as being a psychologist, nurse, social worker, professor, or actor.

Heaven help those folks, however, if they make the mistake of trying to draw close to the BPDer. Then they will become a threat. This is why it is common to see a BPDer being caring and considerate all day long to complete strangers -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> I was a little hopeful after counseling last week. I won't bore you with the details, but counselor called DH on a couple things that I thought were big.
> 
> A week later and I'm back to feeling miserable and hopeless. I even confided to my mother today that I really don't know if I can stay in this marriage. I love my husband as the father of my children.....and that's about it.
> 
> The only two things keeping me here are my children, and *the thought of the heartache I would cause him by leaving. He has alienated himself from family & friends, if I leave he will have no one.*


Oh, boy, if that doesn't sound like me, I don't know what does! 

What happened after therapy? How did your H handle it?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I've been thinking of asking our counselor if she believes my husband is BPD. I totally understand we all have some of the traits, I see myself in a couple. I am worried that if this is what I'm dealing with then there's no amount of counseling or "work" we can do to get to a happy place. 

After counseling it seemed we had both agreed on some things we could work on. I mentioned in the session that I am aware that I get myself into a negative loop of thinking towards him and that keeps me stuck in the negative mind frame. I've now had those words thrown back at me a few times. It's not that he's being difficult or I'm simply frustrated with him, he's a saint and I'm "swirling in my negativity". 

We talked yesterday. His ego is so fragile (and I avoid conflict at any cost) that I really never voice anything negative or disappointing to him. I once shared that I was disappointed in a specific decision he had made and he turned it into a universal...I am disappointed in him as a father, husband, man and human. I've learned to keep my mouth shut. Anyway...yesterday I finally let it out that since his job loss, I don't see him working towards the new career he speaks of. His current job is ending in 6 months and all I see is him denying shifts, taking days off and complaining that he needs a vacation. There has been no researching of financial aid for school, no plan for the education he will need, no class being taken during the summer, but there has been many television seasons bought and rented on iTunes. He told me he is "strategically planning & networking" while he is at work. I called BS on his "strategic" plan...networking will not provide him with the degree he says he is going to get. It's only been 24 hours so I don't know how my honesty is going to affect him yet. We're barely speaking and currently he's at a movie. 

My core problem right now is that I'm afraid I cannot get back to loving, trusting, and respecting my husband. In our 15 years he has lied about a lot of very inconsequential things. But there have been two very big ones that have affected our family greatly, one even put my health at risk. I'm afraid that I have learned he is not the man of integrity I thought he was. Can a person get passed that? I haven't respected him for a very long time and I don't know if I can get that back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

That's the problem with doing MC with a BPD before they work on themselves. They end up using everything against you. 
Can you have a separate session with the MC?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Diwali...that's exactly it. I often get words said in therapy thrown at me. Usually as a defense, justification, or a way to point out that I am in the wrong. 

Yes, I can go on my own. I started going by myself and then brought him in for the last session. I was told that he didn't know why he was going because I'm the one with the problem. I am going to call for an appointment for myself right now. 

I saw a glimmer of hope yesterday after our talk. We were getting ready to go out to dinner with my family. I felt lighter because I actually got something big off my chest with him, and I thought he was receiving it well (or at least not catastrophic). I had hope for a moment that our marriage was worth fighting for. Then at dinner, in front of my family and answering a question my mother asked him, he shoots me a nasty look and threw back at me something I said during our discussion that afternoon. Now I'm getting half ignored and the cold shoulder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I just want to tell you to get out now but I know it's not that easy. He sounds so much like my ex. It's heart breaking. 
No more couples counseling I think.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Diwali...that's exactly it. I often get words said in therapy thrown at me. Usually as a defense, justification, or a way to point out that I am in the wrong.
> 
> Yes, I can go on my own. I started going by myself and then brought him in for the last session. I was told that he didn't know why he was going because I'm the one with the problem. I am going to call for an appointment for myself right now.
> 
> ...


Wow, he is playing the victim here big time. I think you are going to have to just go kinda cold here, and let everything he says just roll off your back. YOU know how things really are, you have perspective on things. It seems like that is the only way you are going to be able to live with this man, because he is not going to change, or maybe is not ABLE to change. Otherwise my suggestion would be to start making your exit plan.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Diwali, you're right. It would be easier if we didn't have children. My oldest is old enough to understand and be totally crushed. She's already sensing the tension. My youngest is so little there wouldn't be any memories of her family ever being together as one unit. It tears my heart out. 

I keep coming back to the fact that I don't know how to respect him again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## punchlove (May 16, 2013)

Ms Stacy
Reading through your original post I can see his side. I was not as bad but all I really wanted to do was hang out at home with the kids. My wife would always suggest to do something and I would say no, I am tired or complain about financially we should not go. I was a huge boar looking back now, and I was only 28yrs old at the time. Now my wife is separated from me and yeah I am alone. Its miserable and lonely. I wish I could have gone back and taken advantage of all those times we could have gone out. Since Ive been alone I look into finding new interests, going to the gym and taken better care of myself. Still young Im only 29 and enjoying myself. My wife has seen a new me. We are still separated but taking things one day at a time. 

Just saying it was a wake up call for me.............


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> After counseling it seemed we had both agreed on some things we could work on. I mentioned in the session that I am aware that I get myself into a negative loop of thinking towards him and that keeps me stuck in the negative mind frame. I've now had those words thrown back at me a few times. *It's not that he's being difficult or I'm simply frustrated with him, he's a saint and I'm "swirling in my negativity"*.


Ok, does my H have a twin that I don't know about? It is UNCANNY that my H said almost the EXACT SAME THING to me. Reading this thread is like reading my own posts here. 



MsStacy said:


> We talked yesterday. His ego is so fragile (and I avoid conflict at any cost) that I really never voice anything negative or disappointing to him. I once shared that I was disappointed in a specific decision he had made and he turned it into a universal...I am disappointed in him as a father, husband, man and human. I've learned to keep my mouth shut.


Again...this is eerily similar to the dynamic between my H and I. He's overly sensitive to anything he perceives as criticism, even when it's not criticism, so I learned to clam up and never express anything negative or disappointing to him. And when I do, it gets turned into him feeling like a total failure. For example, I have wanted to move out of our trailer that we've lived in for 19 years. We can afford it, so that's not the problem. But every time I mentioned it in the past, he turned it into how that made him feel like he was a "bad provider" and nothing he does is good enough for me. 




MsStacy said:


> My core problem right now is that I'm afraid I cannot get back to loving, trusting, and respecting my husband. In our 15 years he has lied about a lot of very inconsequential things. But there have been two very big ones that have affected our family greatly, one even put my health at risk. I'm afraid that I have learned he is not the man of integrity I thought he was. Can a person get passed that? I haven't respected him for a very long time and I don't know if I can get that back.


As far as can you get past the feeling that your H isn't the man of integrity you thought he was, it depends...does he ADMIT that he lied and does he see the need to change his ways? And extrapolating from what you said about putting your health at risk, did he cheat on you? If so, that adds another whole level of complexity to the situation.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Waking Up To Life...I'm sorry our husbands are so similar. When I get a few moments I am going to read your story. 

No, there's no cheating. I injured my back at work many years ago and I am on a daily pain medication. About 5 years ago I found out he had been taking my prescription. He originally lied when confronted, he even blamed his brother, but then came clean. That didn't stop him from getting into the prescription again about a year later. My medication is regulated. If I take more than prescribed or run out, I'm in trouble. My pain would get out of control and I would go through withdrawal. I would either end up in the hospital or have to tell my doctor. After the second time I caught him my prescriptions have been in a locked drawer only I have a key for. He has never done drugs, illegal, prescription or otherwise, except for these two times. When I think back to that time, and then last year when his lies cost him his 18 year career and our financial security, coupled with the stupid ego driven lies that are more constant, I question his integrity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Oh, yes...he admits to these big lies now. At the time it took weeks to get the truth out of him. After losing his job last year and that series of big lies, he admitted to me that he lies for no reason a lot. So he did realize it. During that time I thought he was really seeing himself and working on some things. Well, a year later and not much has changed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

I don't know either. I think for me once I saw him for his true hateful manipulative narccistic self there wasn't anything he could do to fix it and truthfully he didn't want to. 
He thought I should just love and respect him no matter what he did, like a mother. 
I still don't think he gets it and it's been five years. 
He was making things so chaotic, refusing to save his fighting for when D wasn't there and calling me names in front of her, that I knew it was better for her not to be living in that environment. 
And it has been. 
Now she sees an independent mom who is in a loving relationship without abuse, lying and fighting.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Diwali, it's great to know that being happy is possible. Thank you for your experience and insight. I don't know where all this is going to lead me yet. 

It has started...the fallout from my honesty on Thursday. He does have a valid point...that I hold everything in until he pushes me too far and then I kinda unload. I was VERY careful though not to say anything mean, hateful, or intentionally hurtful. Of course I was just told that I did the exact opposite. I know I phrased my words carefully. He heard that he's a "lazy SOB who doesn't work hard enough, doesn't deserve a vacation or time off, and doesn't deserve happiness". Really? I'm telling him he doesnt deserve to be happy?? I was told to "build his confidence, be supportive and work on this as a team". But when I check his transcripts to see what classes he needs for prerequisites I was told that he's not a child and he can do it. Same with financial aid research. I'm told that he doesn't need me to take over and do everything. I was just now told to come to him as a team, express my concerns and offer confidence. But when I suggested a class that wouldn't be too difficult to take during the summer I was shut down "it's too late to register". 

Basically everything I said on Thursday was a mean and personal attack on him. I have been supportive for a year "you can do it, we will be fine, yes that's a good idea, thank you for working so hard for us" but it's all undone when I say that I don't see him putting forth the initiative anymore. He said that if ultimately I don't believe in him anymore, that's fine. Yeah....not even likely I'm going with honesty there right now. He can obviously sense it though.

This will likely dribble out from him in small spurts. I'm sure that this is just the beginning.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> It has started...the fallout from my honesty on Thursday. He does have a valid point...that I hold everything in until he pushes me too far and then I kinda unload. I was VERY careful though not to say anything mean, hateful, or intentionally hurtful. Of course I was just told that I did the exact opposite.
> 
> Basically everything I said on Thursday was a mean and personal attack on him. I have been supportive for a year "you can do it, we will be fine, yes that's a good idea, thank you for working so hard for us" but it's all undone when I say that I don't see him putting forth the initiative anymore.


Realize manipulation when you are faced with it. I lived with this crap for years. Heck, if I so much as showed any negative emotion whatsoever, all hell broke lose. 

But my husband? Heck, he could slam a closet door until it came off its hinges. He could jump out of a car in the middle of traffic if I said something that ticked him off, even when I had no idea what it was I said to trigger him.

But, GOD FORBID if I so much as said anything that could be construed as a personal affront. Frankly, I was so beaten down by the insanity of it all that I just shut down completely.

Honestly, I don't think you can do anything. He wants to live life on his terms, and his terms alone. If anything is outside his parameters of what is okay, you will get his disapproval.

I left. I couldn't tolerate anyone stomping on my very soul. 

You need to make some difficult decisions.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Prodigal...wow...if it was that explosive it would be easier for me to leave (hopefully!). 

The rest of the shoe is dropping. Well, probably not the rest of it but more of it for now. First, while I'm cooking dinner and both kids are under foot he seems to be asking me for something...but I know he can't be asking what he is really saying because that would devastate him, if that makes any sense. He asked if I agree with the points he made earlier. Well, no, I never said he didn't deserve happiness or a vacation. I said I heard how he felt in regards to what I said on Thursday, is there a specific question he is asking me? (I thought that was pretty insightful on my part.  Usually i tell him what I disagreed with.) It went round a couple times with both if us getting frustrated. 

He just came in a moment ago. Both kids in the bath and he pulled me away (youngest is too little to be left). He said he submits. Whatever class I pick for him during the summer he will take. Same with the fall semester. He will be a good father and he will work hard. Whatever plan I lay out for school he will do. He would like my help. Ummm...he was pissed at me 10 minutes ago. I can't keep up. 

I don't trust this. I REALLY don't trust it. I told him I don't know what he's doing or what he's suggesting, then the little one needed me and I finished bathing the kids. 

I know he's feeling attacked, vulnerable & hurt. I can take it from him much more than he can from me. I just don't like playing games.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> Prodigal...wow...if it was that explosive it would be easier for me to leave (hopefully!).


Actually, no. It wasn't generally explosive. I'm just giving you a couple of more dramatic examples. My husband was like yours in many ways. He just kept slowly chipping away at me until I doubted my sanity. 



MsStacy said:


> ...but I know he can't be asking what he is really saying because that would devastate him ... He asked if I agree with the points he made earlier. Well, no, I never said he didn't deserve happiness or a vacation. I said I heard how he felt in regards to what I said on Thursday, is there a specific question he is asking me?
> 
> He just came in a moment ago. Whatever plan I lay out for school he will do. ...he was pissed at me 10 minutes ago. I can't keep up.
> 
> I just don't like playing games.


^THIS.^ Read it again. Don't like playing games? Then quit engaging. Because he is playing you like a cheap guitar. Really. You are still in the loop. And you don't know how to get out of that loop.

But he keeps engaging you in the game, the dance, the no-win-I'm-a-pitiful-victim game.

You had a child in the bath tub who needed your full attention. So you let him rope you in anyway. Then, after he managed to aim his poison dart at you and pull you off balance, he retreated.

As long as he can pull you in, even a little bit, you are still playing the game.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

He's doing the push-pull game that BPDers are pro's at. "I don't need your help! Don't treat me like a baby!" is the push. Then he pulls you back saying "I submit. I'll take whatever classes you choose for me."

If you want to encourage him and support him, that's great...and you do that by speaking encouragingly to him, asking him how school is going, making sure he has enough quiet time to study, etc. That's how you do this as a "team". You cross the line from being helpful to enabling him by doing things for him that he can and should do for himself, like looking at his class schedule, suggesting what classes he should take, etc. That's what school advisors are for. If he needs help choosing the right class, gently remind him to schedule an appointment with his advisor. This way, if and when something goes wrong with school, he will have to try harder to blame it on you (he still will try...he'll just have to make a bigger stretch). 

Have you read the book Codependent No More?


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

When I quit engaging, that's when I'm not part of this partnership, not letting him in on "where I am at", being cold, etc etc. Again I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't. Why can't it be easy...meeting X as a goal is going to be a lot of hard work (on both our parts!), so lets start with A, work towards B, get to C, so on and so forth. I don't understand strategic planning, that has nothing to do with school, yet he's telling everyone he is 6 months away from a degree that will take him a minimum of 6 years...and that would be busting his hump, not turning down shifts, opportunities & whining about a day off. Everyone he tells this 6 mo timeline to looks at him like he's an ignorant ass. Yeah, and I get to be his wife. Yep, I chose him. 

He told me on Thursday he's been working 110-130 hour pay periods (2 weeks) since November. Dang those paystubs that spell it out in black & white. I didn't go back passed January but it was 79, 68, 71, 74, 71, 73, 82, 64...you see the pattern. I see one 80 hour full pay period. Where's all this extra time he's "working"?? Just another BS lie he thinks he gets away with. He lives in fantasy husband land and I'm the mean, hateful wicked witch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Great suggestions WUTL, thank you. I will definitely use those. 
I read the book a very long time ago. Time to pull it out again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

I agree with everything that 3X, Diwali, Waking, and Prodigal just said, MsStacy. Like you and me, they have much experience with abusive, unstable people.


MsStacy said:


> When I quit engaging, that's when I'm not part of this partnership, not letting him in on "where I am at", being cold, etc etc.


Likewise, my BPDer exW was always accusing me of "stonewalling" her when I would refuse to engage in her nonsense by withdrawing from all the dramas she was trying to create.


> Again I feel damned if I do and damned if I don't.


If he has strong BPD traits, as you suspect, that is exactly how you should feel as long as you continue living with him. As we discussed earlier, the only way he can continually "validate" his false self image of being "The Victim" is to find fault with your decisions, no matter what they are.


> Why can't it be easy...meeting X as a goal is going to be a lot of hard work (on both our parts!), so lets start with A, work towards B, get to C?


If he has strong BPD traits, he doesn't want "easy." Moreover, his goal is not to find compromises and solutions. Rather, it is to create lots and lots of _drama_ -- so as to support his role as "The Victim."


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Do not choose his classes. He wants you to choose them so he can blame you when he fails. 
Anytime a BPD person submits its run for the hills time. You don't like playing games? 
Their whole life is a game. All of it. 
If you refuse to play they just think of a new game.
He sounds delusional. I don't know how you deal with it. The refusal to accept reality drove me nuts. 
I feel so sad for you. Why is he trying to talk about serious issues when you are clearly busy? I would say you might gently say that you can talk after the kids are asleep or after dinner.
I have a thread here somewhere about my dad and then my ex but I never finished the story because people lost interest. 
But it definitely shows the depth of the game playing, manipulation and convenient breaks with reality. I'll find it if you are interested. 
It is possible to be happy but I don't think it is possible to be happy living with someone like that who refuses to try to get better.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you Diwali, I would like to read your story. I think I found it, titled Writing About My Story. 

My husband is in the pity party stage. After putting the kids down to bed last night we both went to our separate corners. I don't know what time he got up, but noticed he was in the living room watching tv at 4:30 this morning. He left for work at 6 and we have not spoken. I'm sure it's my fault that he could not sleep.

I'm tired of being the hateful, heartless bad guy in everything. I know he is feeling the same. In church this morning the sermon was on attitude. It amazes me (and freaks me out sometimes too) how the message will relate to me so personally. The cliff notes version is that our attitude is the only thing in life that we can control. Our attitude completely affects our behavior. I'm still trying to get myself out of the negative thinking regarding H. I think I owe our marriage, and most importantly our children, that I try my absolute hardest to make this work. 

I don't know whether to expect more of the shoe dropping when he gets home, or if I will be ignored. I'd prefer the silent treatment for tonight, but that's probably too much to wish for. For now though, I'm going to get my attitude back into a positive place.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes that's the one! 
It's hard to be positive about someone who is constantly sabotaging your marriage, lying, being childish, abusive and delusional. 
I found with my ex that the more I tried to focus on my and be peaceful the more he tried to upset me. I would come home from a yoga class all happy and peaceful and it was like he just couldn't take it. 
I could see it in him, he would try to start a fight and be a jerk and if I just didn't let him get to me he would keep escalating until my mood was ruined.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

MsStacy said:


> ... our attitude is the only thing in life that we can control. Our attitude completely affects our behavior.


You are in a crappy place. I lived in that place myself for a long time. Yes, our thoughts, which shape our attitude and overall mood, are about all we can control.

The thing is, I was allowing my AH ("alcoholic husband") to rent too much space in my head. He was always on my radar, as I tried to figure out his mood-du-jour. 

Actually, my attitude towards him didn't change for a long time. The man had lost his sanity to the bottle. And it drove me up a wall. I just kept to myself and allowed my animosity to simmer in the privacy of my own space.

Finally, I just looked at him for the sick, sad man he was. It is about detachment. Naturally we want to analyze the people with whom we interact to some degree. After all, we need to gauge how to respond.

The thing is, when people are so sick that they keep poking us into a corner, emotionally-speaking, we need to detach. That is a difficult thing to do. I had to focus on my own life, give up even trying to deal with a crazy person, and find happiness elsewhere.

I can hear your pain and frustration. The only thing you can do is not engage him. So what if he thinks your a cold beyotch? You know you're not. From cyberspace, I can tell that you aren't.

And I admire you for putting so much effort into your marriage. But if your H isn't willing to comprehend he has a problem and get the necessary help he needs to get better, sadly, you might have to pull the plug.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

We didn't talk last night which means I know I need to address things tonight. I am really good at sweeping things under the rug and just moving on, but I realize that is not healthy & feeds his anger & insecurities. I need to address his "surrender" and that I will not be taking control of his classes but I will support him in seeing a school advisor and I will support him while in school. 

He told me last night he signed up for a couple extra shifts on days he is already working which means he'll be pulling doubles...16 hour days. That's what I'm dealing with...if I say anything he takes it to the extreme. How about pulling a shift on one of his long weekends? (He gets 4 days off every other week, then 2 days off the in between weeks.) I'm not asking him to work day & night, but an extra shift here & there so we can bank that $$ in case his job ends in December as it is supposed to. Or maybe that extra $$ could be used for his education. 

I dread opening a discussion. Maybe I need to make myself a bullet list of things I need to say tonight so when it goes sideways I can keep myself on track.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

A list is good. 
Sounds like he is trying to punish you constantly. Like how dare you ask him for things so he will do it but make it hard on you.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

That's exactly what I feel like Diwali. 

I'm too tired tonight to deal with him. I'm putting #2 child to bed right now, #1 to follow, and I didn't get a chance to get my bullet list finished. So I'm going the cowardly/easy way out tonight and going to sleep early. I'm in desperate need of some sleep. Tomorrow I will finish my bullet list!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

He's so passive aggressive. I am tired just reading about it.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Last night, before I got a chance to bring anything up, H came to me and asked if I was waiting for him to say something (we essentially haven't been speaking for a couple days). I told him no, that I was trying to sort out what I want to say to him. He said he didn't want to talk any further, he is not mad, and he doesn't want to be beat up on any further. I told him that I don't know how to say things to him without him feeling like its a huge personal attack. We left it there. Part of me felt shut down, and part of me was relieved that we weren't getting into another big discussion about everything. 

Today he thanked me. Said that he knows its difficult for me to communicate, especially when it is something negative about him. He realizes the courage it took for me to finally say the things I did and he agrees that he needs to get moving on things again. I told him I appreciate it, I'm not trying to beat him up or criticize. 

I'm not sure how to take this. He is pretty good at self reflection, whether or not he is able to change what he analyzes about himself, we will see. This has caught me off guard though. I don't know if I have mentioned this previously or not, but a couple weeks ago during a big argument he said something about separating. He has thrown that out before during arguments and I told him this is the first time I have actually considered it, thought about the logistics of it and how it would affect our children. I think that may have hit home for him. 

I don't know what to think right now. We are coexisting but slowly warming back to each other...I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Last night, before I got a chance to bring anything up, H came to me and asked if I was waiting for him to say something (we essentially haven't been speaking for a couple days). I told him no, that I was trying to sort out what I want to say to him. He said he didn't want to talk any further, he is not mad, and he doesn't want to be beat up on any further. I told him that I don't know how to say things to him without him feeling like its a huge personal attack. We left it there. Part of me felt shut down, and part of me was relieved that we weren't getting into another big discussion about everything.
> 
> Today he thanked me. Said that he knows its difficult for me to communicate, especially when it is something negative about him. He realizes the courage it took for me to finally say the things I did and he agrees that he needs to get moving on things again. I told him I appreciate it, I'm not trying to beat him up or criticize.
> 
> ...


I can SO relate to this up and down kind of crap. I have been living it for 19 years. It seems to be worse lately. One minute he's pissed at me about something beyond my control or ability to foresee...he pouts, he makes sneering passive aggressive comments, he makes a point to leave the room but not without saying he needs to "get away from me". After a while (an hour, two hours, a day, whatever strikes his fancy), he's back to being all nicey nice and trying to be attentive, ask how my day was, tell me what a wonderful cook I am. I am so tired of his moods dictating the dynamics between us, and trying to figure out if we're getting along or if he's still mad, or what. These flips can happen mulitple times a day, or sometimes he'll go for days or weeks being "relatively" normal. I just can't continue to live day to day, hour to hour, allowing him to set the tone of our relationship to whatever suits his mood at that moment. I'm emotionally and mentally drained beyond description. I am leaving, as you may know...I made the decision I needed to leave a few months ago. I knew that my mental and emotional well-being were in serious jeopardy when I started questioning if I'm the crazy one because I can't understand the mind games he plays with me. Don't let yourself get to that point.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Waking up I know the feeling so well. 
He used to say to me on Fridays sometimes "let's just have a good weekend together." I finally figured out if he said that it meant he didn't want to fight and be an obnoxious PA ahole for two days. 
If he didn't say it, the weekend would most likely be full of his tantrums and eye rolling and silent treatment. 
And then when he decided he felt like being nice again I was just supposed to go along with it. 
I'm sorry for you both.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

It's been pretty quiet around here. I've been trying to warm back up to hubby, and apparently he's been trying to give me the space to do so. It's been pretty businesslike, but there have been a few arbitrary hugs and kind words that have been helpful to me in the warming up process. I have to say he's been a lot more helpful around the house and with the children. He took on an extra shift and seemed as though he heard me. 

Then today...he started in...apparently I am "punishing" him. Now he's not speaking to me. We had a little discussion, I told him that I've been supportive and not questioning anything in the last year, but I do feel like everything is hitting me and I'm questioning now. I need him to show me he's more than just talk. I told him the last time we had a fight and he (again) brought up divorce that I actually considered it and the logistics. It seems like lately he has taken that to heart. But once again, in our discussion, he brings up separating. 

I'm trying my damnedest to like, trust and respect this man again.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm not easy to live with, I know that for sure. I can be distant (read: cold), uncommunicative, and OCD. But if he knows that certain things push my buttons, why does he continue? If he knows that I was seriously thinking separation, why does he bring it up again? He says he's not leaving, no matter what. He wants to be my "partner". And in the next breath he says he doesn't want to continue to be punished by me. Yes, I'm a little cold & distant right now. I'm trying my best to find my way back to him. I have been unconditionally supportive for over a year now after the lies and life changes he thrust upon us. I'm feeling it and dealing with it now. He's been patient for two weeks and I'm the one not working as a "team".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MsStacy said:


> Then today...he started in...Now he's not speaking to me.


MsStacy, if your H has strong BPD traits as you suspect, you likely will find him "acting out" on some occasions and "acting in" on others. While doing the latter, a BPDer will not scream and yell. Rather, he will punish you with passive-aggressive coldness and long periods of silence -- as is described so well by Schreiber in the article that Waking gave a link for in her post #11 above.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I went back and read that article again Uptown. Thanks for the reminder. 

We are living like roommates right now. Taking care of the kids, household, and being civil but basically passing each other in the hallway. I had plans with my kids & my family on Saturday and he was supposed to meet us after he got off work. Friday night I confirmed the plans with him and he mentioned he didn't know if he was going to join us. We waited for him Sat evening and when it was clear he wasn't coming we continued with our plans. I asked him about it that night, told him we had waited for him, he said since I didn't text him before he got off work he decided to do his own thing. But I'm the one he says is passive aggressive. 

Our 15 year anniversary is this Friday. Normally I would plan an out of town over night for us. Instead, I have lined up childcare and we will go to dinner at one of the "usual" restaurants in our small town. It makes me sad. I'm not into celebrating "us" this year. I have no idea what we can talk about at dinner that won't lead to arguing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MsStacy, it sure sounds like his passive-aggressive phase is still in effect.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Yesterday H ignored me half the day and the other half he was moody. A couple times, when parting, I went to give him a kiss and he turned his head to give me his cheek. At one point he asked if I was in a mood which is my cue lately that he's stewing on something. After we put the kids down to bed he told me, very business like, that he was going to bed and asked what I needed from him for the kids the next day. We exchanged a couple logistics & that was all. I went to bed 30 minutes later and he turns to me for sex. He's cold all day, provides me his cheek all day, then wants me. I have rarely denied him, but I am finding it difficult, almost repulsive. I know that I am at a low point in my marriage. I am so afraid of not finding my way back. Right now I am staying because of my children.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MsStacy said:


> Yesterday H ignored me half the day and the other half he was moody. A couple times, when parting, I went to give him a kiss and he turned his head to give me his cheek. At one point he asked if I was in a mood which is my cue lately that he's stewing on something. After we put the kids down to bed he told me, very business like, that he was going to bed and asked what I needed from him for the kids the next day. We exchanged a couple logistics & that was all. I went to bed 30 minutes later and he turns to me for sex. He's cold all day, provides me his cheek all day, then wants me. I have rarely denied him, but I am finding it difficult, almost repulsive. I know that I am at a low point in my marriage. I am so afraid of not finding my way back. Right now I am staying because of my children.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe if the sex stops, it will get his attention.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Yeah...I have dreamt of that 3Xnocharm. I may as well take sex off the menu...I don't even want to admit how long I've been faking it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ginger-snap (Apr 10, 2013)

> He's cold all day, provides me his cheek all day, then wants me.


Maybe you can say exactly this to him?


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## Foolish1 (Apr 5, 2013)

dallasapple said:


> I don't believe this is a "man woman thing" .Its more like an "avoid sweep it under the rug " thing and a "come to and agreement even if its agree to disagree thing".
> 
> Quiet and independent" can also be seen as aloof and indifferent.(uncaring).
> 
> ...


I really agree, I think it is extremely bad to say you're the man and he's the woman. My husband and I seem very similar to you two, and I'd never characterize him as the woman of the relationship. Everyone's different, I've come to learn there are not many gender specific traits. I don't like to talk much, I know other women like this, and plenty of guys who talk all the time. I see nothing good coming from saying a guy, your husband, is womanly.

Words of affirmation are also my husband's thing and this is what I'm doing. I talk him up. To him and others. When he starts the petty stuff, like your H with the movie date thing, I don't engage with him. Once you're cooled down, talk him up some more. Once he's cooled down, bring it up in a way that you want to find out what's really bothering him and want to help. When he does something that's bothering you, tell him about it as briefly as possible while still getting your point across, then go back to being appreciative of him.

I'm coming from a place of sympathizing with you. My H being upset that I'm going out when he's already doing something and it has no impact on him; I've been there and it annoys me to no end! Good luck.

ETA: I'm sorry, I just read the more recent posts and see this is worse than attitude about a girl's night and a planned movie date with him. This sounds so rough, hang in there and take care of yourself.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

I understand that we shouldn't characterize each other into stereotypes. We have only done it occasionally, and usually in a joking manner. He was the one to say it first, many years ago, so I don't feel it is used in any way to emasculate him, but I will make sure we do not continue. I can see how it could be harmful. I used it here for the purpose of illustrating our personalities. I'll check that and do it differently from now on. 

Today is our 15 year anniversary. I asked him last night if there was some place he would like to go for dinner. He replied, "I haven't thought about it. You're not doing anything are you? (meaning gifts). Because I'm not doing anything. It's not like you planned anything anyway. I'm not doing anything." He knows I was trying to plan an overnight trip but my parents are out of town so that didn't work. My oldest will be at an event in town so he said he didn't want to get massages (another of my suggestions) so we wouldn't be hard to contact. Each time I made a suggestion he nixed it. I feel I tried to plan something decent but kept getting shut down. So we will go somewhere for dinner, which frankly I am dreading because I'm resentful and don't know what we'll talk about without arguing. 

I can guarantee that tonight is going to be a flop and it will come back to bite me at some point because I didn't "care enough to plan something". Apparently I'm the only one in this marriage with the ability to plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foolish1 (Apr 5, 2013)

That all really stinks, I'm sorry you're dealing with it. I read some off the wall advice once, I can't remember the guy's name, but it was just to agree with everything your spouse says. I've applied it when my H is really negative and it worked surprisingly well. (And when he really is right I am one step ahead.) The idea being the more you argue with someone, the stronger they'll hold onto their POV, it's just human nature. But if you agree with them, their nature tends towards defending whatever they were just talking down. It'd be interesting on someone who is constantly negative and you sound pretty checked out (don't blame you at all for that), so it may save you some arguments and grief.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

This is so hard to read. 
It's so like my ex. Someone posted a link earlier about BPD men and I was struck by this:


"He may tell you every day, that he "loves" you--but his actions don't back it up, and the words start feeling hollow. You'll begin to resent hearing them, as you've recognized they have no meaning anymore, and they never make a dent in your loneliness. Your marriage feels like a sham; he's the roommate now, who still expects husband privileges. His narcissism prevents him from noticing your pain, or identifying with it. He's in his own little bubble, which won't burst until you've left--or kicked him out. This is when you'll see the 'waterworks,' and hear about his remorse. You've probably been here before. Will you forgive him again?"

It's so true. He is acting in unloving ways. Yet he will say he isn't. He is an expert saboteur.


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## MsStacy (Nov 11, 2008)

Our anniversary was ok. We talked a little about the state of our marriage. Thankfully there was no arguing. Mostly he wanted to know if I was still thinking about leaving him. I told him that right now I'm not thinking that, but told him he's shooting himself in the foot every time he brings it up. 

In the mean time, I'm not finding that I can warm up to him. I'm not as repulsed, which is a warm up I guess. I love him as the father of my children, as the person I have spent 16 years of my life with...but in love with him, as a husband and a lover, no. I feel like a very comfortable roommate. His job is still ending in December and I don't see any forward progress on that front. There's a lot of talk from him, but no school, no job hunting, no forward progress. 

I have noticed recently that he is doing more around the house and he is trying to be more helpful with the kids. That does mean a lot to me but I thought it would make me feel more warm and fuzzy than it is. Every single day he asks me "why are you in a mood?" Usually I am not but that simple question is putting me in one. I think it's because he can sense so much about me, and I'm finding it to be so much easier when he's at work, away from home. I've asked him to stop asking me that but it seems he can't help himself. He's not pressuring me to talk anymore and he's mostly keeping to himself. It's only a matter of time till that blows. He is not happy, it's quite evident. Last night at work one of the patients had a meltdown & tried to hit him. He was visibly still upset this morning. He said that its hard, sad & frustrating when someone goes after you and I don't understand the personal frustration. I get that to a point. But he works with mentally ill. It is absolutely not personal against him, but he could never see it that way. I'm just so very tired of the mentality that the world is against him. 

Last night, completely unprompted by me, my oldest wrote a letter to daddy telling of what a great dad he is (yes, he is a great dad!!) and all the reasons she loves him. She knows Father's Day is coming so I'm sure that was why. It literally brought me to tears. THAT is why I stay, my happiness be damned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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