# What do you do... with the info you have gained?



## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

I suppose... I am similar to some gentlemen here. 

You are young... you learn the _wrong_ things about love and relationships.... because society shoves it down your throat (and religion to a degree.)

You get married eventually. Have kids. **** changes. 

You don't really understand what in God's name is going on. 

You find TAM... you get an inkling of what is up or down... and then you get interested. You read. You start reading other sites/ blogs.

Before you know it... You are finding out that- your 'love' and your 'marriage' come down to:

A.) Time in relationship
B.) Hormones
C.) And your ability to take in the butt... and smile while your wife inserts it. 
D.) Annnd.. were you "NICE to her" when she inserted it and thrust further. (Joking, kind of, you know the whole- resentment 5 years earlier because- X, Y, & Z. That's the analogy for the butt reaming.)



In all seriousness... what or how did you proceed, in your marriage, once you realized that the woman you loved... was not capable of returning the love you were able to give due to the length of time in the relationship, her hormones (depending on time of month), and all the ills you placed onto her being via your own personality?

I am NOT looking for a chick's perspective here... if I were it would be in the- General Relationship forum. Duh. 

I am giving no background and no qualifiers here. I know my value as a spouse and I know I have a fairly good relationship with my wife and marriage (no dead bedroom... solved that already) .

BUT... there has been a change. I can see it and feel it. And I am intuitive enough to know that what I have been reading, here and elsewhere, concerning the female sex/ LTR seems to line up with the change(s) I have seen over the past 6 years. 

SO... gentlemen... if you agree with recent studies... WHAT do YOU do with this information? 

I have a general gut feeling... and I tend to follow that. However, I am inquisitive to the general wisdom here. 

IF you are a man and you don't agree with the whole 'females get bored in LTR'... cool... reply too.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> I suppose... I am similar to some gentlemen here.
> 
> You are young... you learn the _wrong_ things about love and relationships.... because society shoves it down your throat (and religion to a degree.)
> 
> ...


To be honest I’m a little confused about what you’re asking exactly but I’ll give it a shot.

Knowing what I know now, if I had to deal with ABCD…what are my actions?

First I need to be clear with myself whether C & D are divorceable issues.

Second, the talk. C & D have to go. Is she onboard with that or not.

Whatever her answer, go from there either towards either fixing the relationship, possibly counseling, or divorce.

Clear as mud? Fixing the relationship is the hard part that a lot of people won’t do. It’s hard work, involves personal commitment and sacrifice, and can be painful. Lots of folks say screw that and just divorce. I’m not a fan of throwing in the towel unless circumstances warrant it. Infidelity or abuse are immediate show stoppers for either spouse.

I have no idea if I answered your question or if I’m just rambling into the ether.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Your wife has hormone fluctuations but you don't want a "chick's" perspective.....because clearly we know nothing of hormones.

Ok then, I won't share my perspective. Let's see how the guys cover hormones. I'm truly interested.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Understand your value and never completely give your entire self away to someone.

I have a wife that earns my love and respect but I do not place her on a pedestal.

Your wife is not 100% accountable for your sex life. You have responsibilities there as well.

A woman doesn’t love a man the same way a man loves a woman. There is a large degree of practicality in a woman’s love.

If you don’t live your life in a manner that makes you a valuable man then you can expect trouble in your future.

Just because there are truths within the red pill philosophy doesn’t mean that there is some kind of conspiracy going on or you should resent women. Use the knowledge to better yourself and your relationships.

It isn’t your wife’s fault that social influence and misinformation aren’t in line with the truth of human sexual dynamics.

AND LASTLY: DO THE WORK OR DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. CHANGE YOURSELF IF YOU WANT TO SEE CHANGE !!!!!


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> IF you are a man and you don't agree with the whole 'females get bored in LTR'... cool... reply too.


I will say SOME (maybe most) people get “bored”, female and male. And hormones affect both genders. I have gone through some of wife’s hormone swings over a lifetime together. But they never manifested in a way for me to question her love.

To summarize, have no experience with what you are struggling with. Sorry cant help


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> how did you proceed, in your marriage, once you realized that *the woman you loved... was not capable of returning the love you were able to give* due to.... (whatever)


To cut a long story short, I left, by mutual agreement.

The steps are

talk about it. It was not about "realizing" it without checking with her. I don't like the sound of that "realized".
discuss _"how do we see our future, what are each of our lives *really *about, etc etc"_
potentially a counselor could help with that, but really you should be able to do it
if it _can't be talked about calmly_, then that may be the end
discussion of _"WHY???" _is a bit pointless. Is it hormones, is it our culture, is it our childhoods, who cares.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

lifeistooshort said:


> Your wife has hormone fluctuations but you don't want a "chick's" perspective.....because clearly we know nothing of hormones.
> 
> Ok then, I won't share my perspective. Let's see how the guys cover hormones. I'm truly interested.


By offering more money..🤣🤣🤣🤣

Just kidding of course.


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## 342693 (Mar 2, 2020)

Laurentium said:


> [*]discussion of _"WHY???" _is a bit pointless. Is it hormones, is it our culture, is it our childhoods, who cares.
> [/LIST]


Agree 100%. Wondering why will only consume you and prolong your pain.


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## blackclover3 (Apr 23, 2021)

here is my two cents, because you described me here and I'm actually feeling worse

1- If you have kids, mask your pains, disappointments, and satisfactions for the sake of your kids. kids grow better in a full house (Dad and MoM). they feel more secure and safe. until they are older than 18
2- If you don't have kids I would suggest splitting 
3- if your Wife cheated or had an emotional affair and you have kids then divorce 

no one is perfect and you will never find the perfect partner. I put pros and cons of what I would have had done if I had to choose a different person 

you will never be able to find a well rounded partner, positives will always have negatives. when you have kids in marriage it becomes only about kids happiness and not yours nor your wife. having kids is big decision and comes with commitments. like buying a house, and after few months or years living in you decide you dont like it because there are issues. you dont just leave the house and jump to another. you would need to fix, sell, get another mortgage, move out, search for new house, move in, fix more things. 

some people with kids who divorce because they are not happy or feel lonely in marriage are selfish. they will make up stuff like .."well, if the parents are not happy then kids arent".... no wrong, kids prefers the house stay together.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> In all seriousness... what or how did you proceed, in your marriage, once you realized that the woman you loved... was not capable of returning the love you were able to give due to the length of time in the relationship, her hormones (depending on time of month), and all the ills you placed onto her being via your own personality?


A wife doesn't just fall out of love just because it has been 3, 7, 11 years. IIRC, those are some of the most common times spouses go to MC. She doesn't fall out of love just because she has menstrual cycles (and not all women act like hormonal wackadoodles). She doesn't fall out of love just because her husband has his own personality. 



Rooster Cogburn said:


> IF you are a man and you don't agree with the whole 'females get bored in LTR'... cool... reply too.


Either spouse can get bored, feel like roommates, feel dissatisfied, etc., and it isn't caused by a date on a calendar.

If you want to feel like a helpless victim, then I guess the advice would be to suck it up, deal with it, and keep taking it up the butt.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

With I've learned over my years married, here's my thoughts. Long or short courtships only matter as to those involved. Mine was short, met in May and married I August. Normal couple first years for a new couple, struggles.with finances,.yet reckless abandon in the limerance phase of love. Then a huge difference over most, I went back into the military before 4th year. Starting deploying overseas.this aspect made both of us quite independent and contributed to a longer time of passion for each other. Also boosted us through that average marriage death routine in the relationship zone of 7 years with variety. Lots of good,lots of bad as in never developing a normal married routine, lots of frustrations and never developing communication skills. Our zone for ending hit around the 20-22 year mark after retirement and being with each other as a normal couple. Lots of changes in both of us now, some good and some not so good. Now a child is involved in the dynamic. We probably should have split, but didn't. We learned to adapt and take a lot of crap off the other. Also my mental illness undetected this far was creating havoc in our emotional relationship. Over the last few years we've begun to rediscover who we were when we met and who when are now and what we desire together not apart. Many changes throughout the marriage, yet somehow we wanted to.stay together, pig headed maybe? Our core belief systems have always aligned for sure, maybe that helped. Don't know if this is just rambling or keeps with the thought.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Is there a phenomenon where wives start trying to shove things up their husband's bum?????

Seriously though, I think the men having these problems, more than likely have problems with their requirements and boundaries in general.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

It always takes 2 to tango as the old saying goes. In any relationship, each side has their wants, hopes and desires. Sometimes they align, sometimes they don't. We will bend to acquiesce the others needs, be patient during times the other has a rough patch in their life, taking it as stated...up the bum. It ebbs and flows like the tides. It's normal. However when it becomes lopsided, that is where the problems arise. Communication of needs and desire become important now....GOOD communication. If differences aren't resolved equitably, this is when sides get drawn, resentments build, affairs start happening or couples finally split.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> By offering more money..🤣🤣🤣🤣
> 
> Just kidding of course.


You're not wrong....at least in some cases.
LOL


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> .......*You are young... you learn the wrong things about love and relationships.... because society shoves it down your throat (and religion to a degree.)
> 
> You get married eventually. Have kids. **** changes.
> 
> ...


As I read this question it is not about hormone swings, but it is about what should I do with a better understanding of my and my wife's behaviors as I learn from experience. What do I do with the information I learn along the way during marriage? I apply it, I share it with others, but most of all, I use the new understanding to examine my actions and those of my spouse.

And yes, dating while young was incredibly important in learning about women, what they want, how they act, what seems to be important to them. I think that people who marry their first girlfriend, enter into marriage under-prepared.

Marriage is about near continuous change and negotiation with one's spouse. 

If I were advising myself or a son, I would provide several books and some solid advice.

The most important piece of advice is to find someone you like, love and are really proud of. If you are lucky have them love you more than you love them as you love can grow over the years. Marriage should be for life, so don't ever cheat on your spouse and don't bad-mouth them. 

Nothing will remain the same and everything will need to be renegotiated over the life of the marriage. The sex you have before marriage, will be different from what it is when you have small children, different when your older spouse has bad arthritis in their hip.

Now as to the books. Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy; Chapman's 5 Languages of Love; David Schnarch's books, the Crucible plus Intimacy and Desire; M.W. Davis Divorce Busting; Gottmans' Art and Science of Love; Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight.

I have learned many things from life and the list of books. Even in the most committed relationship, arguments can happen. One partner can make a huge mistake (we are human being). We can be cruel and rude to people we love. We need to be able to apologize and not get into power struggles for the sake of power struggles to dominate our spouse. We need to focus on the future and forgive the past. 

Perhaps one of the most powerful lessons was in Schnarch's book the Crucible. Marriage is hard. You are in a continuous and life-long battle of growing emotionally, and either having to pull your spouse forward in their development or have them pull you forward. You get married and start living together brings challenges of who does what chores, what do you eat, what do you save money for. Just when you feel you have the changes down, you have children and your relationship changes again. Then the kids are old enough to go to school and you have more energy and a little bit of privacy. Soon, your kids become teenagers and you have to earn much more to save for their college education and deal with their rebelliousness. That puts stress on your marriage. Then they leave home and you have an empty nest (except at holidays or college vacations) and you have time, privacy, with this person (your spouse) that you need to develop a whole new relationship with. Your kids get married, and have children and your relationship with your spouse, your children and your grandchildren becomes a new complex learning experience. Then you retire and have all this free time with your spouse. Finally, as you age your or your spouse become frail and one needs to care for the other.

Life in marriage is typically about continuous change in your relationship with your spouse. That change can be very hard at times. You have to approach marriage with the right attitude.

Sort of like being enrolled in a Continuous Improvement program for the company called marriage.


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## Casual Observer (Sep 13, 2012)

I think it can be worse; I think that just getting along OK, going through life, without any really obvious major issues but one partner is oblivious to a degree of dissatisfaction in the other could be a really awful way to live. Some degree of drama might not be such a terrible thing. Something to wake up the marriage and reassess things? We all deserve better than to just get through without big issues.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> I suppose... I am similar to some gentlemen here.
> 
> You are young... you learn the _wrong_ things about love and relationships.... because society shoves it down your throat (and religion to a degree.)


Well I've kind of always followed my own tune, and not really cared what other people think I should do.

Even when I was young I thought the idea of "happy wife, happy life" was utter nonsense. Since that is premised on doing whatever pleases the wife, at the husbands expense. Which does absolutely nothing to sustain attraction, in fact it kind of makes the man look more like a needy servant than anything else.

What I did learn when I was young, was lots of women had enormous sexual appetites and desires. And they can be splendidly fun to be with, when they feel free to enjoy their carnal desires without being shamed for it.



> You get married eventually. Have kids. **** changes.


Sure in the second instance I did that. Although in the first instance I voluntarily jumped into my own self inflicted shotgun wedding at 19.

That said in terms of changes after having kids, sure things certainly changed in terms of having the responsibility of looking after them etc. Yet other things like sharing a rich sex life carried on in both of my marriages without abatement until my first marriage ended. While it's still going with tremendous frequency variety and fun in my second marriage.



> You don't really understand what in God's name is going on.


I've never really felt that I don't understand what's going on, in any of my ongoing sexual relationships inclusive of both marriages.



> You find TAM... you get an inkling of what is up or down... and then you get interested. You read. You start reading other sites/ blogs.


Well I stumbled upon TAM, looking for discussions about sex and found them interesting, so I pulled up a stool and here I am.



> Before you know it... You are finding out that- your 'love' and your 'marriage' come down to:
> 
> A.) Time in relationship


Sure time matters, so for some in can be a burden to endure, while for others it can be a journey worth sharing. If you enjoy spending time together, that time will be its own reward. On the other hand if all involved don't enjoy spending time together, then they would probably be better off not being together.

I'm 26 year 3 months and a bit into the time I have shared with my wife, and so far it has been a pleasure in the sharing, so we are content to keep sharing our time together going forward. On the other hand if it wasn't a pleasure, it would be okay for us to let each other go, so as not to make life unpleasant for each of us.



> B.) Hormones


Hormones affect all of us as do so many other factors as well. Yet it doesn't have to be a given that hormones can damage ones marital relationship.

My wife is 52 she has had children, had breast cancer, had thyroid problems and a suite of other experiences as well. On top of all the rest that life can bring in spades. Yet through all of that and surgeries and other life changes, we have continued to share a tremendously vibrant sex life together with splendid frequency that helps keep us connected through all of that, by continuing to share physically intimate experiences with each other.



> C.) And your ability to take in the butt... and smile while your wife inserts it.


Well of course I smile, because it feels really good when my wife shoves some fingers up my butt, while she has my penis in her mouth. Likewise my wife also has this tremendously long and pointy tongue (I think she might be part lizard), which she generously, uses to probe up my backside as well, and it really feels good so I am happy to smile. Of which if your wife doesn't already do this for you, I encourage you to ask her to do it, since it can feel really good.

That said although I can't speak for other people's marriages, I reckon if a man finds himself in a marriage. With a wife who willingly and enthusiastically inserts things into his behind, he may actually be in a very good marriage.



> D.) Annnd.. were you "NICE to her" when she inserted it and thrust further. (Joking, kind of, you know the whole- resentment 5 years earlier because- X, Y, & Z. That's the analogy for the butt reaming.)


Well if someone wants to hang onto things from the past if they have been supposedly resolved, then there's nothing wrong with telling them to "get over themselves".

Also for what it's worth having some level of charm and wit, can help limit some resentment, if things aren't too entrenched.

Also maybe instead of generally tap dancing and saying what people think the other person thinks they want to hear. Life can be easier by just being blunt.

Whenever my wife says, does this make me look fat, my answer is always yes if it does and no if it doesn't. Likewise if my wife says I only want her for sex, or I only want to use her for sex, my answer is always "yes I only want you for sex" or "yes I only want to use you for sex".



> In all seriousness... what or how did you proceed, in your marriage, once you realized that the woman you loved... was not capable of returning the love you were able to give due to the length of time in the relationship, her hormones (depending on time of month), and all the ills you placed onto her being via your own personality?


That's so weird, I can't imagine being with someone in a relationship like what you describe here. Seriously if I found myself n such a situation, I would end that relationship, lest I share a relationship with someone who I wouldn't enjoy being with, who also didn't enjoy being with me as well.

And on that I haven't realised what you have written, since it hasn't been my experience, And I still enjoy being with my wife, since she is a pleasure to be with, and as best as I can tell she enjoys being with me as well. Now of course things aren't perfect, since we're fallible people, yet we still spend plenty of time connecting with each other and having lots of fun. So as long as it's still fun, we keep spending time together.



> I am NOT looking for a chick's perspective here... if I were it would be in the- General Relationship forum. Duh.


Okay.



> I am giving no background and no qualifiers here. I know my value as a spouse and I know I have a fairly good relationship with my wife and marriage (no dead bedroom... solved that already) .


Cool, I'm glad you're happy. Although I do wonder if you are happy, given what you have written?



> BUT... there has been a change. I can see it and feel it. And I am intuitive enough to know that what I have been reading, here and elsewhere, concerning the female sex/ LTR seems to line up with the change(s) I have seen over the past 6 years.


Well that sucks, I guess. Perhaps if you're wife is changing, you can change as well. For somme of us an evolving relationship can work well, for others it sees people drifting apart. I don't know, I've alway felt it's okay for relationships to come to an end, if they have seen their use by date.



> SO... gentlemen... if you agree with recent studies... WHAT do YOU do with this information?


I carry on enjoying what I have, not fretting about what might be or worrying about what I can't control. At some point I will be dead, till then I'll give life a go as best as I can.



> I have a general gut feeling... and I tend to follow that. However, I am inquisitive to the general wisdom here.


Whatever you find works for you, is probably a good place to start.



> IF you are a man and you don't agree with the whole 'females get bored in LTR'... cool... reply too.


On females getting bored in relationships, I concur that can be a thing. Although I think males can also get bored as well. At the end of the day for all, it helps to not be boring. Of which if some can't help but be boring, well it sucks to be them I suppose. Yet that's okay as well, since life isn't a sheltered workshop, where everything is supposed to be fair and everyone wins a prize.


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## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

Sooo... letting the dust settle. Reading the comments. 

Long story short- I take the kids to school... do my home chores... WORK my part-time business (service related... my scheduling pertains 100% to my customer's needs)... get booked out 2 months...wife asks- 'What's going on... you look bleak?'

My exact words- "Yeah. I am overbooked. It's a bit stressful."

I said that because- When people call you for jobs... you do the job as soon as you can or you lose the business. There's always- 'Oh, I am sorry, I know I scheduled this 2 weeks ago but my ****ter's full and I can't buy the Christmas presents.' Soooo... you not only loose one job (the present customer) but you actually lost 2 jobs... the present one and the one you could have scheduled. 

THEN the wife pulls out some psycho ap on her phone to analyze you for you being 'stressed' about it.

I can't be 'stressed' but she can be a an absolute ***** every 4 days of the month? Get out of here with- 'Oh, I'm a girl and I know you don't know about hormones'. 

That's love?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Since you seem to think women have no valuable input on how to make a marriage to a woman work, I'm suggesting these two books. They are written by a man so that should be ok. Dr. Harley's books are excellent advice on how to build and maintain and strong and passionate marriage that meets the needs of both the husband and the wife.

Love Busters: Protect Your Marriage by Replacing Love-Busting Patterns with Love-Building Habits: Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr.

His Needs, Her Needs: Building a Marriage That Lasts: Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Is there a phenomenon where wives start trying to shove things up their husband's bum?????
> 
> Seriously though, I think the men having these problems, more than likely have problems with their requirements and boundaries in general.


You get what you tolerate.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

EleGirl said:


> make a marriage to a woman work


It is absolutely a two-way street. Takes two to tango or tangle. Maybe they need read the books together, usually both spouses have fences to mend (if they care to mend them)


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Can it be that some guys just don’t want to discuss what is going on with women?

I stay off the Ladies Lounge for this reason. If they want a place to post with just the girls why should I intrude myself.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Sooo... letting the dust settle. Reading the comments.
> 
> Long story short- I take the kids to school... do my home chores... WORK my part-time business (service related... my scheduling pertains 100% to my customer's needs)... get booked out 2 months...wife asks- 'What's going on... you look bleak?'
> 
> ...


You get what you tolerate. Don’t tolerate crappy behavior. But at the same time, don’t be emotionally reactive to it either. Be above it. When she’s acting crappy, just smile, give her a kiss, pat on the head and remove yourself and find something better to do.
Remove your time and attention until she chooses to be pleasant again (or asks to talk through the situation if there’s an actual conflict involved).

It’s your responsibility to lead your relationship dynamics in your marriage. You need to set expectations and boundaries for your marriage and your life.

Fundamentally, you can’t expect your wife to be your emotional support. I know it’s unfair, but that’s the way it is. If you want emotional support, get it from other men.
Your wife expects you to be strong, capable and confident.


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## TinyTbone (6 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> You get what you tolerate. Don’t tolerate crappy behavior. But at the same time, don’t be emotionally reactive to it either. Be above it. When she’s acting crappy, just smile, give her a kiss, pat on the head and remove yourself and find something better to do.
> Remove your time and attention until she chooses to be pleasant again (or asks to talk through the situation if there’s an actual conflict involved).
> 
> It’s your responsibility to lead your relationship dynamics in your marriage. You need to set expectations and boundaries for your marriage and your life.
> ...


That is good wisdom there sir!


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## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

DudeInProgress said:


> You get what you tolerate. Don’t tolerate crappy behavior. But at the same time, don’t be emotionally reactive to it either. Be above it. When she’s acting crappy, just smile, give her a kiss, pat on the head and remove yourself and find something better to do.
> Remove your time and attention until she chooses to be pleasant again (or asks to talk through the situation if there’s an actual conflict involved).
> 
> It’s your responsibility to lead your relationship dynamics in your marriage. You need to set expectations and boundaries for your marriage and your life.
> ...


Again... letting the dust settle.

Just so I get exactly where you are coming from....

A.) Lie to my wife... when she asks me, point blank- "What's going on?.... You look bleak?"

B.) Set boundaries so she doesn't ask my feelings... and if she happens to... just vent on some male friends? (Hey, Bob, I haven't seen you in 2 months but damn, I'm a mental **** show because I have a backlog of work and I can't seem to... That's what I'm supposed to unload on 'my buddies?' )


And BTW... I gave her jazz over the Phone app for everything "mental" prescription she seems/ seemed to have. BELIEVE me... she's not gonna bring that up again. 


I guess... if NOT expecting my wife to be "some" "sort" of emotional support in my marriage... then wtf did I get married?


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

I bet your wife has a hard time communicating with you. You are approaching your relationship from a position of self defense. I promise that is coming through in your tone when you speak to her. It sounds as though you have some huge resentments to unpack.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

EXIT ONLY!

Oh you aren't talking about strapons going up my sh-thole? What if my partner ain't putting out?

Still the same answer!
EXIT ONLY!


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## BootsAndJeans (3 mo ago)

I think everyone, men and women, at times, get bored in a long-term relationship/marriage. I know there are times that I did. There are times, my wife did.

We took a pragmatic approach. Together we explored doing new things together. Visited other states and countries, did new activities together, etc. 

For me, once our kids moved out, I started to not be "safe" or "dad" anymore. I think both of us identified with being Mom or Dad, as our primary identity for 22 years. 

I bought a motorcycle and some of the "bad boy" persona I had when younger and in the military, came back. This re-started her engine and personal desire for me immediately. She rides with me occasionally and she gives me that demure "you're so bad" line and then surrenders.


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## aaarghdub (Jul 15, 2017)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> In all seriousness... what or how did you proceed, in your marriage, once you realized that the woman you loved... was not capable of returning the love you were able to give due to the length of time in the relationship, her hormones (depending on time of month), and all the ills you placed onto her being via your own personality?


Biggest takeaway I’ve gotten from TAM is avoiding covert contracts and not lighting yourself on fire to warm your partner.

I also realized that it’s likely you may outgrow each other but you can’t drag someone out of their bubble. Don’t sabotage your own growth to enable someone to sit on their hands. Distance is relative. If you’re not growing and staying put, than you will grow apart. The grower looks back and sees someone choosing to stay put and distancing themselves. There’s a difference between growing and getting old together and vs growing old together. The latter implies “I don’t want to grow or be lonely.”

We tend to let “it’s never good enough” be a one-way roadblock. By that I mean many partners use “not good enough” or “it’s fine” and get offended as a way to end the discussion (usually sex not but always) and the other must be happy with what they have and drop it. Yet they can’t apply the same logic when discussing what their partner wants for lifestyle upgrades. The LL asking for the upgrade will usually not stop at hearing what they have is good enough. So if they can set a boundary for “what we have is good enough” that must be respected, than so can I.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

Mr.Married said:


> Understand your value and never completely give your entire self away to someone.
> 
> I have a wife that earns my love and respect but I do not place her on a pedestal.
> 
> ...


Lotta straw man's in your reply... BUT... I will reply to one of your comments- The metrics I mentioned regarding 'female love'... NEVER came from Red Pilled America... they were straight from a female sex counselor and marriage counselor.

Thank you for your thoughts though.


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## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

EleGirl said:


> Since you seem to think women have no valuable input on how to make a marriage to a woman work, I'm suggesting these two books. They are written by a man so that should be ok. Dr. Harley's books are excellent advice on how to build and maintain and strong and passionate marriage that meets the needs of both the husband and the wife.
> 
> Love Busters: Protect Your Marriage by Replacing Love-Busting Patterns with Love-Building Habits: Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr.
> 
> His Needs, Her Needs: Building a Marriage That Lasts: Dr. Willard F. Harley Jr.



Thanks. We read them together.... oh... about 6 months ago.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> Lotta straw man's in your reply... BUT... I will reply to one of your comments- The metrics I mentioned regarding 'female love'... NEVER came from Red Pilled America... they were straight from a female sex counselor and marriage counselor.
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts though.


Sorry if I’m dense but define “straw men in your reply”


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

So that's it..


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## Rooster Cogburn (9 mo ago)

DownByTheRiver said:


> So that's it..


Yup.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Rooster Cogburn said:


> You are dense. I pretty much served this one up to you


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## Griswold (1 mo ago)

I've been at this marriage thing for a very long time (30+ years). Things ebb and flow. I think I've seen a few of the studies you may be referring to in passing. My instinct (I'm not qualified for anything except babbling on the internet) is the better view is look to evolutionary psychology. Red Pill stuff extracts bits and pieces of EP and seems to misuse it. But one of the concepts you'll see a lot (any book by David Buss) is mate value. Relationships can ebb and flow as mate value between partners closes and opens. Yours goes down and she starts to detach. Yours goes up...she's a tad more interested. All of our values go up and down over the decades. But you paying attention to her...does not move your mate value. Only you move your value (and she hers). I think the other thing that explains a ton of behavior that I've seen with my wife over the years is what every reader of the infidelity sites sees: on average women value/fear loss of emotional attachment to the man (while men fear loss of sexual fidelity ...again - on average). Some of the "battiest" behavior I noticed by my wife back in the '90s I can now see, looking back, was because I was triggering this abandonment/detachment fear. I worked a ton of hours , and I spent a fair amount of free time on hobbies, we had baby etc. In my mind I was present, earning and doing the right thing and rewarding myself. In her primate brain...I was leaving/not there/ignoring her. She is not a needy narcissist. She's actually brilliant. But we are all primates under the hood. I can only hope she did not do more than just act out on me. (my suspicion on the infidelity front is that what separates the women who succumb and cheat from the non cheaters is how they respond to this internal almost hard wired trigger). To be clear, any EP would point out that their findings are "on average." So not every guy or gal is going to actually follow their models or have reactions. But on balance I think this kind of stuff explains what you see in your marriage. Just my Cliff Claven view.


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## gaius (Nov 5, 2020)

BeyondRepair007 said:


> Clear as mud? Fixing the relationship is the hard part that a lot of people won’t do. It’s hard work, involves personal commitment and sacrifice, and can be painful. Lots of folks say screw that and just divorce. I’m not a fan of throwing in the towel unless circumstances warrant it. Infidelity or abuse are immediate show stoppers for either spouse.


That might very well be part of your problem. Women find a guy they can't get rid of rather boring.

I love my wife, she's the woman of my dreams that I never thought I'd find, I want to spend the rest of my life with her and don't want to lose her or get divorced, but I have my boundaries and enforce them. 

For example, my wife started doing something that was disrespectful and annoyed the piss out of me every weekend for a while, so I told her directly to knock it off a few times. She kept doing it, so I planned a weekend trip to show her how great we can be together. During the trip I took a break from showing her how studly I was and all the things of value I had to offer and told her it would be a pity if we weren't together anymore, and that the behavior had to stop. So the weekend after that she did it again and I just didn't come home. I was traveling for work during the week and just stayed out. It was the Superbowl weekend too and we had a whole party planned. That finally drove home the message and the behavior stopped.

That's the thing 98% of men don't seem to get anymore. I don't know what you mean by emotional support, but it's not your wife's responsibility to prop you up emotionally in any way. And if you want to keep her interested don't put up with nonsense and don't be afraid to lose her. No matter how much you might not want to.


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