# Is it really that prevalent?



## TX-SC

I'm seeing all of the "Me too" stories about sexual harassment and sexual assault. Are you guys seeing this often? Is it really that prevalent in our society? If so, it's really sad! 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## MrsHolland

Yes it is!


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## marriageontherocks2

I'm a dude and I had a perv rest his hands over my junk when I was 10 and grab my crotch. He was a neighbor, about 25 and I was sitting on his racing bike and he "pretended" he was just helping me over the seat. I pushed his hands away and took off. #MeToo.

If sexual assault is an event like that, it's likely almost every human being is a victim of sexual assault.


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## WilliamM

It's probably even more prevalent. 

People. No respect at all. And I think that is getting worse.


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## sokillme

TX-SC said:


> I'm seeing all of the "Me too" stories about sexual harassment and sexual assault. Are you guys seeing this often? Is it really that prevalent in our society? If so, it's really sad!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I can't tell you the number of women I dated who ended up telling me they were raped at some point. Most of these were girls from seemingly stable backgrounds. Raped by family members, boyfriends, dates, or total strangers. It's depressing. There are a lot of really ****ty men out there.


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## chillymorn69

There is reseaech out there that indicate women assult boys almost as frequently maybe even more frequently. 


By boys are not belived that it happened abd are so ashamed that they never come forward. 

Many People in power will abuse it.


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## Red Sonja

Every woman that I know or have ever known has been sexually assaulted (groped or raped) and, a large number have also have been sexually harassed (at work). My 2 sisters, my brother and I have all been raped (the legal definition of rape) at one time in our lives. The most recent "grope" incident was 3 months ago when a man I just met (that day) grabbed my breasts in public. I am 61 years old; you would think I wouldn't experience this crap any longer.

For the record, I don't personally count idiots who _verbally_ sexually harass as they are easy to ignore and do no real damage to an adult target.

Yes I agree, there are many truly ****ty people in the world.


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## Herschel

I was having this talk with my gf and she made a pint of telling me that she didn’t say me too. She said she has been in bad situations and touched I appropriately at a bar multiple times, but she didn’t think that is what the me too should be about, and I can’t argue that.

Nobody should touch someone else in that way (like a boob or butt grab at a bar). Press charges if you want, call him/her out and whatever, but emotionally that should get shrugged off after the night. 

Me too should be about actual forced sexual encounters. Made to physically do something against your will (even if it’s emotional control). That is where I think there is a blurry line with all the me toos out there.


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## uhtred

I think a lot of women have been sexually assaulted. Knowing the numbers is tricky because people define assault and harassment in different ways. 

I think that there is also a huge amount of variation in the rate at which women are harassed or assaulted in different social groups and different situations. That means that some women have never experienced serious problems while others see it all pervasive. 

I'm more familiar with workplace sexual harassment and bias, and I'm convinced that varies dramatically between workplaces. My wife has never had a problem in 30 years of work, and I've never seen a case in my main job. OTOH it seems rampant in some high tech industry. My impression is that there is a self-reinforcing effect: workplaces where harassment is tolerated, it becomes more common, making it more common in a bad positive feedback loop. In places where its stamped out quickly, it never seems to take hold.


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## Mr. Nail

I have no trouble believing it is prevalent. Personally I'm not that guy, but I've met that guy. Personally, I haven't been assaulted, but I have been the object of unhealthy desire. I don't even know if it was really unhealthy desire, All I know is I didn't want her thinking about me that way. 

It can be disturbing to think back to that time in my life, I was quite young. Infatuations and crushes happened every other week. By the time I was 17 it just didn't matter any more. I got over my last one about the time I was 19. Interestingly it was at about that time that I was shamelessly used to make another man jealous. I always thought the perpetrator of that incident felt quite guilty about the way she treated me, but as I knew that she had no real interest in me, and, that I had no expectation of her, I thought it was just a laugh. In fact the other man was a guy I respected.


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## Laurentium

I'm a man - I've had my private parts groped on public transport, but nothing more serious than that. 

Come to think of it, I have had women put the moves on me rather firmly when I was probably technically "way too drunk to consent", leading to sex, so technically some might call that rape, but I can't say for sure I would have refused if I had been cold sober, so I as far as I am concerned there was no problem.


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## Satya

I've never had an experience involving unwarranted and unwanted molestation in my life. I know several female friends who say they legitimately have. I know several ex female friends who said they have but it turned out they were lying (one was married & had gotten pregnant by an OM and I don't know the precise circumstances of the other but she was called out after her story just didn't add up). 

I honestly think it never happened to me because I was a rather ugly child, ugly/dorky teen, and a late bloomer in the looks dept.

My ex H said I got better looking with age. Not being stuck up, I'm still average by my personal judgement. There's someone for everyone, right?

While I'd never downplay someone's personal accusation of rape/molestation, I do wonder if some men and women use it as a scapegoat for poor behavior /choices. When that happens, then we begin to question the very things that are put in place to protect us and to punish the deserving. So really, I wonder if rape was always prevalent (because it's encouraged to be communicated) or because it sufficiently detracts from what could be the actual truth.

And I do believe many men are raped and not provided with adequate support and help. It's improving in areas, but could stand to improve more. 

Hopefully I haven't belittled anyone with my comments. Just speaking from experience.


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## katies

it really is that prevalent. Every one of my friends has a story. Thank God my daughters do not but they're only 28. I was raped when I was 45.
The thing about coming forward is that your victimized again, over and over. If one more person questions me about why I froze instead of scream I'm going to throw a book at them full of the statistics that say most people freeze. Including my husband.


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## EllisRedding

I think it is prevalent, among both men and women. When I was working at Blockbuster video (18 at the time), my manager who was gay told everyone he had a dream and I was dessert. His boyfriend would frequently call the store to check up on me. I wouldn't call this sexual harassment per se, but at a minimum inappropriate in a workplace (especially for a manager talking to an employee). Also, at Blockbuster I witnessed one of the male employee's slap a female employee on the ass. I actually had to go to Blockbuster headquarters and testify about what I saw. Who knew Blockbuster was a hotbed of sexual misconduct lol

My only reservation with everything going on is that now social media is being used as judgment on a person's guilt.


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## Keke24

It really is unfortunately. Most of the females I know have been sexually assaulted. Having experienced this within my own family, I think being blamed for the assault or having absolutely nothing done about it after the victim works up the nerve to report it, is even more damaging than the act itself. I feel more disgusted by women who respond that way, than I do for the man who is the perpetrator. 

I wish we heard more reports from males who've been assaulted. It seems like there's still many people who have a hard time accepting that boys and men are being assaulted by females, just because they don't know anyone its happened to.


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## RandomDude

sokillme said:


> I can't tell you the number of women I dated who ended up telling me they were raped at some point. Most of these were girls from seemingly stable backgrounds. Raped by family members, boyfriends, dates, or total strangers. It's depressing. There are a lot of really ****ty men out there.





Red Sonja said:


> Every woman that I know or have ever known has been sexually assaulted (groped or raped) and, a large number have also have been sexually harassed (at work). My 2 sisters, my brother and I have all been raped (the legal definition of rape) at one time in our lives. The most recent "grope" incident was 3 months ago when a man I just met (that day) grabbed my breasts in public. I am 61 years old; you would think I wouldn't experience this crap any longer.
> 
> For the record, I don't personally count idiots who _verbally_ sexually harass as they are easy to ignore and do no real damage to an adult target.
> 
> Yes I agree, there are many truly ****ty people in the world.


Yeah and people including ex-wife wonders why I'm worried for my kid. She reckons I shouldn't encourage violence by having my daughter learn self-defence. Doesn't help that she's not into it either, no matter how many kick ass fighting female role models I try to expose her to. If she beats up her own attacker it saves me having to track down the fkwit to rip his fking skin off!

I'm still hoping for the day she'll change her mind, I only need to teach her a few things, enough to inflict pain and breakage giving her time to escape. Not trying to make her Ronda Rousey.

Bah!


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## Ynot

While I am not downplaying the harm of real sexual assault, way too often these allegations come across as failed or bad attempts at flirting. Again I am not talking about overt physical acts, but the ones where a guy suggested something and nothing ever happened. To ruin someone's career over something like that is sad. I am sure we all have had some incident in our lives where we may have suggested to a person we were interested and that something more is possible and got shot down.

OTOH less than a year ago I went on a date with a woman. We went to dinner, saw a movie and closed a bar down. When we got in the car she climbed on my lap and started making out. She jokingly said that she felt like she was raping me. As things got hotter I put my hand up her shirt (up the back, not the front). She immediately stopped me. The next day, she told me how she had felt pressured and did not want to go that far. Needless to say that was the last time I saw her. It had nothing to do with taking things slow, it had everything to do with the inconsistency between her actions (nearly raping me) and her words (wanting to wait)

So I sometimes have to wonder


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## marriageontherocks2

To all the women here who have dealt with rape and sexual assault, I feel bad you had to endure that I couldn't imagine it. As a man the thought of being raped wouldn't even cross my mind (unless I was going to the state penitentiary). It's not something that concerns me ever, I walk down a street at 3:00 AM and I don't worry about being kidnapped and violated, or slipped a roofie in a bar and raped.

I really think it's a rare and certain type of man who does this, right mix of narcissism and psychopathy and this man has probably done it over and over before being exposed. And the vast majority of men wouldn't be capable of it. I know I could never physically hurt a woman.


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## leon2100

A man is walking on the sidewalk and meets a nice looking lady in a tight skirt walking toward him. 
1. The lady continues walking... and looking a head
2. A man will continue walking but turn to look at her ass. 
That is sexual harassment! No woman who constantly diets, spends hours at the beauty salon, buys foundation accessories at Victoria's Secret and dresses to accentuate her shapely feminine features wants this. 

I'm working on a anti-harassment device for men. This device is worn around his neck so the moment he turns to look, he gets an electrical shock to the testicles that creates such agonizing pain that he crumbles to the sidewalk in a fetal position with uncontrollable spasms. 

In time, this will cure men of their primal lust for women and stop this uncontrollable harassment that women have had to endure for the the last 200,000 years.


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## katies

^^ what the h e l l are you talking about? I get that men look. Anywhere from taking it any further than that to rape is what we're discussing.


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## marriageontherocks2

Ynot said:


> OTOH less than a year ago I went on a date with a woman. We went to dinner, saw a movie and closed a bar down. When we got in the car she climbed on my lap and started making out. She jokingly said that she felt like she was raping me. As things got hotter I put my hand up her shirt (up the back, not the front). She immediately stopped me. The next day, she told me how she had felt pressured and did not want to go that far. Needless to say that was the last time I saw her.


I think this is the nightmare scenario for all men, awkwardly mistaking signals and then getting arrested. You could've found yourself fighting an aggravated sexual assault charge for that. I think if I do divorce I wouldn't date at all, it's not the right climate for it and too risky, maybe an escort once a month but I guess she could still say anything after the fact and I would still be screwed. Maybe meditation and remaining celibate is the safest bet for men.


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## EllisRedding

What happens though is you get a knee jerk reaction in the other direction. For example, I was reading in some comments section last week of several women who approve the idea of fines/imprisonment if a guy cat calls them.

Actually, I think this may be in relation to a proposal in France:



> Proposals are under discussion to fine men for aggressive catcalling or lecherous behavior toward women in public, to extend the statute of limitations in cases of sexual assault involving minors, and to create a new age ceiling under which minors cannot legally consent to a sexual relationship.


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## uhtred

I think self defense classes are a good idea for everyone. They are worth it just for the exercise, and gaining some ability to defend yourself in an emergency is a valuable plus. 




RandomDude said:


> Yeah and people including ex-wife wonders why I'm worried for my kid. She reckons I shouldn't encourage violence by having my daughter learn self-defence. Doesn't help that she's not into it either, no matter how many kick ass fighting female role models I try to expose her to. If she beats up her own attacker it saves me having to track down the fkwit to rip his fking skin off!
> 
> I'm still hoping for the day she'll change her mind, I only need to teach her a few things, enough to inflict pain and breakage giving her time to escape. Not trying to make her Ronda Rousey.
> 
> Bah!


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## Herschel

The other issue is the double standard. When a woman does almost any of this stuff to a guy, we are all like, lucky bastard. It’s really crazy in concept. A 15 year old girl starts having sexual relations with her science teacher and we are outraged. A 15 year old boy dies the same with his art teacher and we are all like, wish that was me when I was 15!


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## uhtred

We have to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Depending on what you mean by "making out", then putting your hand in her shirt may have been fine - or not. I think most people will agree that mild escalations in sexual activity are OK. Did she accuse you of harassing / assaulting her, or did she just say she felt pressured?

When people talk about harassment they are talking about the case like the one at Uber where a woman was told explicitly that if she didn't have sex with her boss, he would give her a bad review. HR refused to act on it because he was too "valuable" to the company.

When they are talking about assault they are talking about a situation where you didn't stop when she told you to, but continued and forced her to have sex. 









Ynot said:


> While I am not downplaying the harm of real sexual assault, way too often these allegations come across as failed or bad attempts at flirting. Again I am not talking about overt physical acts, but the ones where a guy suggested something and nothing ever happened. To ruin someone's career over something like that is sad. I am sure we all have had some incident in our lives where we may have suggested to a person we were interested and that something more is possible and got shot down.
> 
> OTOH less than a year ago I went on a date with a woman. We went to dinner, saw a movie and closed a bar down. When we got in the car she climbed on my lap and started making out. She jokingly said that she felt like she was raping me. As things got hotter I put my hand up her shirt (up the back, not the front). She immediately stopped me. The next day, she told me how she had felt pressured and did not want to go that far. Needless to say that was the last time I saw her. It had nothing to do with taking things slow, it had everything to do with the inconsistency between her actions (nearly raping me) and her words (wanting to wait)
> 
> So I sometimes have to wonder


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## uhtred

There are some extremists in every cause, but the great majority of people who talk about harassment are *not* talking about men looking. 

They are talking about a case where the man sees an attractive woman and grabs / assaults her because he assumes that she must want sex with him because she dressed that way. 


Staring at someone can be rude, but its not harassment in most situation. (It could be in the workplace if it is obvious). 




leon2100 said:


> A man is walking on the sidewalk and meets a nice looking lady in a tight skirt walking toward him.
> 1. The lady continues walking... and looking a head
> 2. A man will continue walking but turn to look at her ass.
> That is sexual harassment! No woman who constantly diets, spends hours at the beauty salon, buys foundation accessories at Victoria's Secret and dresses to accentuate her shapely feminine features wants this.
> 
> I'm working on a anti-harassment device for men. This device is worn around his neck so the moment he turns to look, he gets an electrical shock to the testicles that creates such agonizing pain that he crumbles to the sidewalk in a fetal position with uncontrollable spasms.
> 
> In time, this will cure men of their primal lust for women and stop this uncontrollable harassment that women have had to endure for the the last 200,000 years.


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## marriageontherocks2

uhtred said:


> When people talk about harassment they are talking about the case like the one at Uber where a woman was told explicitly that if she didn't have sex with her boss, he would give her a bad review. HR refused to act on it because he was too "valuable" to the company.


I don't think that's accurate, I don't think it's only being defined as workplace sexual harassment to the extreme. There are many variations of what's considered sexual assault or harassment, even looking at a woman in a manner to make her uncomfortable which is highly subjective. If I was YNot and got a call the next day like he did, I would've been ****ting a brick thinking I was going to be arrested for sexual assault.


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## Ynot

uhtred said:


> We have to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Depending on what you mean by "making out", then putting your hand in her shirt may have been fine - or not. I think most people will agree that mild escalations in sexual activity are OK. Did she accuse you of harassing / assaulting her, or did she just say she felt pressured?
> 
> When people talk about harassment they are talking about the case like the one at Uber where a woman was told explicitly that if she didn't have sex with her boss, he would give her a bad review. HR refused to act on it because he was too "valuable" to the company.
> 
> When they are talking about assault they are talking about a situation where you didn't stop when she told you to, but continued and forced her to have sex.


We are talking about CLAIMS of sexual assault/harassment. Which in many cases were simply one person asking another person for some type of sexual activity with no physical activity taking place. So I am commenting on the CLAIM, not real sexual harassment/assault

Placing my hand up the back of her shirt was in response to her placing her hands inside my shirt. It was a simple escalation based one her actions. Later she said she felt pressured. As if I picked her up, placed her on my lap and forced her to do any of the things she did. That was not the case. She willingly climbed onto my lap. She wiling began kissing me. She willingly placed her hands on my body. I merely reacted (as would most any other red blooded male). 

This is my point - when does it cross over from merely reacting, to becoming an assault? Take the case of Steven Seagal and Jenny McCarthy. At the time she had appeared nude in Playboy and had a sex tape out. I think there would have be very few men, who might pass up the opportunity to take a chance on some of getting some action from her, especially given that Seagal at the time was a pretty big celebrity (so it wasn't as if there was some big disparity between the two). I could absolutely see why Seagal might have thought he had a chance with her. So was he reacting to the messages she was sending (or he thought she was sending) or was he over the line.


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## EllisRedding

Here is actually something that Jeremy Piven's just posted. I am not forming any opinion on the claims he faces (he may be full of poop in his denial, IDK), more so the fact that we are in some interesting (and dangerous) times in the way social media impacts our lives



> "We seem to be entering dark times — allegations are being printed as facts and lives are being put in jeopardy without a hearing, due process or evidence," continued Piven. "I hope we can give people the benefit of the doubt before we rush to judgment."


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## Rick Blaine

Unwelcomed sexual advances are prevalent. Even though laws have addressed this and corporations have put in harassment training programs, which are very good, it still happens. 

My exwife was harrassed at work twice, once by her principal and another time by a guy in sales in her former career. I had a boss who was a creep. He used to tell me all the time about women in the department that he had the hots for. The gals in the office office were all creeped out by him, and so was I. Once when he and I were working late he left a swingers ad in the printer. I think he did it on purpose. Really inappropriate.

When I was younger, I would take public transportation all the time. Pervs would look at me and gesture my way all the time. I was pretty young and didn't understand what was going on. But when I was in college, one of these guys followed me home after getting off a BART train. Once I was aware I was being followed, I kept walking well past my home. He kept following. Finally I reversed direction and ran. I had behind a building. When the guy came running back, I stopped him and asked him why he was following me. He said in some kind an Appalachian accent that I could not decipher (this was actually in inner city Oakland), "Because you 'cites me." (You excite me.) I was able to use words to get him to disengage, but it was creepy. There were other experiences as well that I experienced that were worse.

While our laws are doing more to protect us, the sexualization and pornofication of our culture is setting us back. 81% of men 25 and under view porn; 65% of men 26 and older view it. 56% of women 25 and under seek it out; while 27% of woment 27 and older seek it out. The porn seen today is not the same as it once was. It’s group sex, same sex, BDSM, and it escalates to child pornography and other very dark and evil things. Talk to an FBI agent dealing with sex crimes and they will tell you that the pedophiles that they catch started by watching simple porn online and as the addiction set in their appetites grew and they got into more profane and dark porn. 

The proliferation of pornography has had a normalizing affect on our culture. This generation of college kids "hook up" now in a way that no generation before it has experienced. Sure, college students have been having premarital sex since Universities came into existence. But it is wildly different now. I've heard stories where Frat houses now welcome new freshman with signs that say, "Parents, thank you for your daughters." This may sound like an exaggeration, but it is true, and it reflects how the culture has shifted and how men regard women. Girls are more likely to objectify themselves and men move on from one to the next. Culturally we have succumb to our base desires and we are conditioning ourselves to treat one another as sexual objects, tools for our self gratification. 

I'm no prude or Puritan. I'm just pointing out the trend and its disastrous impact. Yes, sexual misconduct is prevalent, and we have our culture to blame.


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## Lila

TX-SC said:


> I'm seeing all of the "Me too" stories about sexual harassment and sexual assault. Are you guys seeing this often? Is it really that prevalent in our society? If so, it's really sad!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I have _personally_ never experienced sexual harrassment or assault, and I don't know anyone who has......but that could just be because they don't talk about it.

I HAVE suffered sexual discrimination but that's for another thread. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## uhtred

Arguing what some person, not present in the conversation, means by a term is not going to get anywhere. 

When I use the term "harassment" I mean the clear cases where there is some for of threat / coercion. 




marriageontherocks2 said:


> I don't think that's accurate, I don't think it's only being defined as workplace sexual harassment to the extreme. There are many variations of what's considered sexual assault or harassment, even looking at a woman in a manner to make her uncomfortable which is highly subjective. If I was YNot and got a call the next day like he did, I would've been ****ting a brick thinking I was going to be arrested for sexual assault.


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## uhtred

You are conflating two VERY different things here. 

If you are making out with a woman (by which I assume stroking, french kissing etc), putting your hand in her shirt is reasonable. It is fine for her to tell you to stop - and of course you should, but going one additional step in making out isn't harassment / assault to me. 

The other case is completely different. I don't care if a woman is a porn star and known for having sex with lots of guys. *I* don't get to assume she wants sex with *me*, no matter how awesome I am. I don't get to take any more liberties with her than with the woman who sits next to me in church. I can ask her on a date. I can gradually escalate if she does so as well, but no more. 

Each interaction has to be treated separately. Behavior in other relationships doesn't apply. 

In addition, in a workplace environment the rules are different. I don't care if one of my direct reports is a former porn star, or even does camming at home. In the work environment she has the same right to be free of harassment as does anyone else. 



Ynot said:


> We are talking about CLAIMS of sexual assault/harassment. Which in many cases were simply one person asking another person for some type of sexual activity with no physical activity taking place. So I am commenting on the CLAIM, not real sexual harassment/assault
> 
> Placing my hand up the back of her shirt was in response to her placing her hands inside my shirt. It was a simple escalation based one her actions. Later she said she felt pressured. As if I picked her up, placed her on my lap and forced her to do any of the things she did. That was not the case. She willingly climbed onto my lap. She wiling began kissing me. She willingly placed her hands on my body. I merely reacted (as would most any other red blooded male).
> 
> This is my point - when does it cross over from merely reacting, to becoming an assault? Take the case of Steven Seagal and Jenny McCarthy. At the time she had appeared nude in Playboy and had a sex tape out. I think there would have be very few men, who might pass up the opportunity to take a chance on some of getting some action from her, especially given that Seagal at the time was a pretty big celebrity (so it wasn't as if there was some big disparity between the two). I could absolutely see why Seagal might have thought he had a chance with her. So was he reacting to the messages she was sending (or he thought she was sending) or was he over the line.


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## uhtred

that is probably a valuable thread. Its an issue I take very seriously at work, but which can be extremely slippery. 



Lila said:


> snip
> I HAVE suffered sexual discrimination but that's for another thread.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Herschel

Louis CK owning up to it with a long statement. While I appreciate honesty and candor, I wonder if being busted has shown him the error of his ways. When did he last do this, and what did he do to reconcile within himself. Not that it changes what he did, but more for the people who are in the same situation and at a crossroads. Can I come back from this? Can I take responsibility for my actions? It will be interesting what is said and done from him now...


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## thefam

I've been touched inappropriately but never forcefully. I never told anybody because I didn't want the attention and it wasnt violent. All incidents were random and one time.

After my husband introduced us, my husband's boss grabbed me and kissed me at a Christmas party when he was drunk. My husband immediately punched him in the face. Someone immediately called the police and when they arrived and listen to the stories they threatened to arrest them both. But i decided not to press charges in exchange for his boss not pressing charges against my husband. They both lost their jobs but my husband got his back after he got a lawyer.


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## Herschel

thefam said:


> After my husband introduced us, my husband's boss grabbed me and kissed me at a Christmas party when he was drunk.


This is another one of those weird areas of what we wonder is considered fair game. What if you weren’t married? Would this be ok? What if you wanted it, but he didn’t know, would it be ok?

We watch romantic movies where there is the leading man and woman, and they are standing there are some dramatic event and he grabs her and kisses her. Is that romantic? Is that sexual assault? What if she didn’t want it and kicked him in the nuts? Should it matter if she wanted it or not? This stuff was much easier to understand like 1000 years ago...


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## uhtred

Romantic movies are about as good at teaching about romance as porn flicks are at teaching how to have sex. 

The issue with when you can grab and kiss someone is really an issue of non-verbal communication - something I'm going to start a thread on.




Herschel said:


> This is another one of those weird areas of what we wonder is considered fair game. What if you weren’t married? Would this be ok? What if you wanted it, but he didn’t know, would it be ok?
> 
> We watch romantic movies where there is the leading man and woman, and they are standing there are some dramatic event and he grabs her and kisses her. Is that romantic? Is that sexual assault? What if she didn’t want it and kicked him in the nuts? Should it matter if she wanted it or not? This stuff was much easier to understand like 1000 years ago...


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## marriageontherocks2

It's easy @Herschel . In the situation you describe of laying a kiss on a woman you believe is signaling you too.

If you're shorter than 6' and lacking in rugged good looks = sexual assault

If you're taller than 6' and very handsome = romantic


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## thefam

Herschel said:


> This is another one of those weird areas of what we wonder is considered fair game. What if you weren’t married? Would this be ok? What if you wanted it, but he didn’t know, would it be ok?
> 
> We watch romantic movies where there is the leading man and woman, and they are standing there are some dramatic event and he grabs her and kisses her. Is that romantic? Is that sexual assault? What if she didn’t want it and kicked him in the nuts? Should it matter if she wanted it or not? This stuff was much easier to understand like 1000 years ago...


What if i was 6 ft 10 and played basketball. Would i be rich?


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## uhtred

Have you run into a situation where a woman was clearly signalling that she wanted to be kissed, but then accused you of harassment when you did so? Every time I've kissed someone, it was clearly signaled as OK, and I've never been accused of doing so inappropriately. (and I'm under 6' and don't have rugged good looks - though I make up for that with my irresistible personality, stunning brilliance, combined with exceptional modesty) 





marriageontherocks2 said:


> It's easy @Herschel . In the situation you describe of laying a kiss on a woman you believe is signaling you too.
> 
> If you're shorter than 6' and lacking in rugged good looks = sexual assault
> 
> If you're taller than 6' and very handsome = romantic


----------



## MJJEAN

RandomDude said:


> Yeah and people including ex-wife wonders why I'm worried for my kid. She reckons I shouldn't encourage violence by having my daughter learn self-defence. Doesn't help that she's not into it either, no matter how many kick ass fighting female role models I try to expose her to. If she beats up her own attacker it saves me having to track down the fkwit to rip his fking skin off!
> 
> I'm still hoping for the day she'll change her mind, I only need to teach her a few things, enough to inflict pain and breakage giving her time to escape. Not trying to make her Ronda Rousey.
> 
> Bah!


I was raised by bikers and construction workers. My dad had a boatload of cousins who were bikers and he worked as an asphalt laborer and then, later, as a foreman of multiple laborer crews. So, there were always a bunch of burly men around the house because they were related or work friends invited over for drinks and food. My parents had me young, I was often the only kid around, I was intelligent and mature for my age, I was well behaved, and I was really helpful. So, I was kind of a mascot. Most of those men, at one point or another, taught me something about self defense. They'd seen a lot and they wanted to make sure I could take care of myself. I am eternally grateful.

When I was 15, my parents went grocery shopping and were gone when I got home from school. My then BF, who lived in the neighborhood and I'd known for 2 years, asked to come in real fast to use the bathroom before he walked home. He'd been in the house many times before, he was going to leave after he'd used the facilities, no problem, right? He went into the bathroom while I went into my room to drop my gear on my bed. I turned to leave my room and he was right there. His general vibe that moment kind of made me uncomfortable, so I herded him back to the living room. When we got into the living room, I turned to say something and he pounced on me. I fought back because I'd learned how. It was quite a struggle on the floor. My clothes got ripped. He'd pin me and start touching my breasts and genitals, I'd scream and fight and get a bit loose only to be pinned again. I was terrified, but knew I had to keep fighting. Finally, he fled after I used my nails to gouge rows in his cheek. I was too shaken and scared and ashamed of my lack of judgement to ever report it to anyone. I carried a knife with me to and from the bus stop for years after that.

I moved back to my home city 13 years later when DH and I bought our house. Last I'd heard through the grapevine, he'd moved out of state so I didn't expect to ever see him again. I was visiting a friend in the old neighborhood and saw him. He'd gotten divorced and moved back to the area. He still carries those scars on his cheek.

That was my _first_ "me, too". I had two other men try to force me physically before I was 25. I fought them off, too. My exH tried to strangle me on the stairs of our apartment. I wasn't able to fight him off entirely, but I was able to fight enough that I was still breathing when the police arrived. A close friend of mine was getting beaten by her then BF, I walked in on it, and I was able to intervene. I could go on...

Teach your daughter to defend herself and others. It's not advocating violence. It's protecting her, as much as you can, from being the victim of violence.

Also, I don't know a single woman that hasn't at least been physically groped against her will and many that have been victims of attempted rape or actual rape at least once in their lives.


----------



## Yeswecan

Yes, it is that prevalent. Even something that was to appear meaningless is in fact not. The butcher at our super market would hug certain women. Dude, first of all you have on a bloody apron. Second, hugging customers is a big no no. He was fired.


----------



## GusPolinski

TX-SC said:


> I'm seeing all of the "Me too" stories about sexual harassment and sexual assault. Are you guys seeing this often? Is it really that prevalent in our society? If so, it's really sad!


Pretty messed up, right?


----------



## RandomDude

MJJEAN said:


> Teach your daughter to defend herself and others. It's not advocating violence. It's protecting her, as much as you can, from being the victim of violence.
> 
> Also, I don't know a single woman that hasn't at least been physically groped against her will and many that have been victims of attempted rape or actual rape at least once in their lives.


Ex-wife is one issue, daughter is another, they both don't want it. Daughter's in gymnastics though, that was our compromise, and she likes that at least. Quite frankly however, I don't believe it's even nearly enough from my experience. I also can't just teach her a few simple techniques and expect her to defend herself confidently. She needs to train it, and drill it into reflex and muscle memory. But she simply doesn't like it. Right now I'm in the hoping game, hoping that one day she'll come to me and tell me "Daddy! I want to learn how to kick butt!" 

Now that would be a happy day.


----------



## Diana7

There is a massive difference between a rape, as in someone forcing you to have sex against your will, or being abused or molested as a child, to a man or women putting their hand on your knee, trying to kiss you, or making a rude comment. 

Making a fuss over the latter is madness, practically all men and women will have had that happen, and most just get over it in 10 seconds and move on if they are mature people. The former cases of serious rape and abuse are a different story. Most of the people I know who were abused as children for example would never join in with this silly 'me too' thing. Most are brave people who don't go round telling people to get sympathy. If you have been abused or sexually assaulted then go to the police, not the media and accuse people who are judged as guilty before any sort of trial has taken place. 

A govt minister in Wales has just killed himself after being accused of very minor offences and sacked. He wasn't even told what the accusations were before he was sacked. He wasn't found guilty or given any opportunity to defend himself. He wasn't in a good place mentally due to other things and this tipped him over the edge and he leaves a devastated wife and children. No one should be named until found guilty in a court of law. 

We have no way of knowing how many of these accusations are made up, they are all taken as gospel truth. Its a witch hunt.


----------



## Openminded

I'm a "me too". 

Yes, it's really that prevalent. For me, it goes back to my childhood many decades ago and at times during my career. And I'm referring to physical stuff -- not words. 

There was little recourse then. Now there is.


----------



## katies

Diana7 said:


> There is a massive difference between a rape, as in someone forcing you to have sex against your will, or being abused or molested as a child, to a man or women putting their hand on your knee, trying to kiss you, or making a rude comment.
> 
> Making a fuss over the latter is madness, practically all men and women will have had that happen, and most just get over it in 10 seconds and move on if they are mature people. The former cases of serious rape and abuse are a different story. Most of the people I know who were abused as children for example would never join in with this silly 'me too' thing. Most are brave people who don't go round telling people to get sympathy. If you have been abused or sexually assaulted then go to the police, not the media and accuse people who are judged as guilty before any sort of trial has taken place.
> 
> .


There might be a difference but it's still unwarranted to touch another person, or kiss them (wth?) without their permission. 
So you're saying I'm *immature* if someone kisses me without my consent and I'm not over it in 10 seconds? Really? 
The "metoo" thing isn't silly, IMO. It has raised awareness to something that has been going on too long with too few consequences perpetuated by too many people. It was eye opening to my sons and my friends' sons how many of their female friends have gone through this so apparently, it worked. 
The "metoo" posters did not do this because we wanted sympathy, although what would be wrong with that? Jesus.
It's because we want people to know how much it happens. It was a campaign about mass experience and to bring the talk about this experience out of the closet. For what reason should it be kept quiet? If I was raped why should I stay silent? I didn't do anything wrong.


----------



## Diana7

katies said:


> There might be a difference but it's still unwarranted to touch another person, or kiss them (wth?) without their permission.
> So you're saying I'm *immature* if someone kisses me without my consent and I'm not over it in 10 seconds? Really?
> The "metoo" thing isn't silly, IMO. It has raised awareness to something that has been going on too long with too few consequences perpetuated by too many people. It was eye opening to my sons and my friends' sons how many of their female friends have gone through this so apparently, it worked.
> The "metoo" posters did not do this because we wanted sympathy, although what would be wrong with that? Jesus.
> It's because we want people to know how much it happens. It was a campaign about mass experience and to bring the talk about this experience out of the closet. For what reason should it be kept quiet? If I was raped why should I stay silent? I didn't do anything wrong.


The maturity comes out in how we deal with very minor things in life. I know many who were sexually abused as children, some in my own family, they are acting in a far more mature way than some who are complaining about some minor indiscretion that happened many many years ago and cant be proved or disproved. To smear someone's name and cause them to loose their job with no proof or details is cruel. If you are abused, then go to the police. 
We have no way of knowing how many of these accusations are even true, and by joining in with this crazy media frenzy/witch hunt, which is ruining peoples lives who may well be innocent, or have committed some very minor indiscretion 20 years ago, we are not helping.


----------



## ConanHub

My mom, both my sisters, many of my cousins, my wife, every girlfriend I have ever had has been raped or forcibly molested.

Raising awareness is fine. Learning to disable or kill your attacker is soooooo much better!


----------



## peacem

There are 3 times I can remember anything like this happening to me.

One was when I was about 8 and we used to go to a village disco that was organized by the scout leader. He often used to choose one of us to help him with the sweet shop, we would sit on a table together and he would stroke the top of my bottom. When I told my friend she said he used to do that to her too. We never said anything and still went to the discos. Funny enough it never disturbed me at all until I saw him recently on a bus, a old fat man and my stomach turned when I remembered what a creep he was (prayed he wouldn't sit next to me). 

When I was 15 my best friend's parents leased a house to a middle aged man. Her parent were never around and this man used to let us hang around his house in the evening. He would give us alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes, money - anything we asked for really. He also used to play porn films and ask us what we thought of it. We used to go to nightclubs (when our parents wouldn't let us) he let us stay at his house and cover for us. We used to sleep on his floor or settee and it was really cold. One night he came downstairs and told me that I must be cold and I could sleep in his bed. So I did. It was only when I got into his bed that I realised that he meant with him. It is hard for people to understand but I felt pressurized into having sex with him - not because I wanted to, but because I was cold and felt I owed it to him because of the money he had given me which I couldn't pay back. (You have to put your mind into that of an immature 15 year old). He was incredibly ugly and not even particularly charming but I just felt under obligation to do as he said. The next day he sent me flowers saying 'sorry'. I never went back but my friend said he had done something to her that she couldn't tell me about and her parents had evicted him from the house.

The reason I never mentioned it to anyone was because I was deeply ashamed and felt I had asked for it, terrified someone would find out. I told my husband when we first got married but nobody else. It was only recently that I stopped viewing it as something I had consented to and saw it as rape - i.e I was groomed and didn't fully understand what was happening.

The other time was my first job after leaving school and the manager had a rule that women had to wear skirts. When he sent us into the warehouse to get something he would often turn up and be very touchy feely. It used to be a big joke - we drew short straws to sit next to him at the Christmas dinner because he would get drunk and try and kiss the girls. Nobody took it particularly seriously, we thought he was just a saddo and we were old enough to tell him to sod off...and generally he did.

I think the reason I am sharing this is because people do not always understand why things are reported many years later. I also think it takes time for us to fully understand what has actually happened. i.e the creepy manager was more overt with his sexual harassment but was seen as an open joke (so he got away with it). Those who do it more covertly manage to create a conspiracy of silence were the victim is convince they are the ones to blame or feel deeply ashamed (they also get away with it).


----------



## katies

Diana7 said:


> The maturity comes out in how we deal with very minor things in life. I know many who were sexually abused as children, some in my own family, they are acting in a far more mature way than some who are complaining about some minor indiscretion that happened many many years ago and cant be proved or disproved. To smear someone's name and cause them to loose their job with no proof or details is cruel. If you are abused, then go to the police.
> We have no way of knowing how many of these accusations are even true.


 I think the women speaking up about the abuse are incredibly brave and mature. It's not a minor thing in life to be raped or assaulted. That encompasses most of the accusations against the celebrities in the most current issues. 
Again, being kissed or touched without your consent is not something to be taken lightly. Its abusive and should be treated as such. 
And many women don't go to the police because nothing is done. Or they have and there is no proof and what a DA can't prove they wont' touch.
But the worst thing is making people victims AGAIN because you poo poo it. Disgusting.


----------



## Diana7

katies said:


> I think the women speaking up about the abuse are incredibly brave and mature. It's not a minor thing in life to be raped or assaulted. That encompasses most of the accusations against the celebrities in the most current issues.
> Again, being kissed or touched without your consent is not something to be taken lightly. Its abusive and should be treated as such.
> And many women don't go to the police because nothing is done. Or they have and there is no proof and what a DA can't prove they wont' touch.
> But the worst thing is making people victims AGAIN because you poo poo it. Disgusting.


A large number of the accusations I have heard in the UK are for minor things, and BTW women do thee things as well, but not many men report it or speak up about it. 
As I said those who are raped or sexually abused as children is a difference case. 
I think that maturity means doing things the right way and living a good life despite the abuse, as so many I know have done. If you are raped the police will indeed act, in a very strong way, as they will for child abuse and serious sexual assaults. My family has lots of experience of this. 

Making out that a member of the opposite sex touching your knee is as bad as proper abuse is madness. Just tell him in a loud voice to get his hand off your knee or move it yourself. Problems sorted. People today don't seem to be able to stand up for themselves at all and seem to want everyone to think they are poor victims to get attention, well that's what facebook and twitter and such like have made us into.


----------



## peacem

@Diana7

As a church lady do you remember this?






A CofE priest who had sexually assaulted many young women in his care. The reason nobody said anything or took so long to report it is because he had managed to brainwash them into thinking they were doing the "Lords work". It was also bringing in a lot of money and a lot of new recruits, no christian woman wanted to ruin what was happening in Sheffield at the time - bringing young people into the faith. So they did things he told them simply out of obligation and fear. 

Now this may seem very strange to anyone who hasn't been in that situation. After this scandal came out in the open (eventually as the Bishops were doing a very good job of covering the whole thing up) lots of people were coming forward in my own church to speak up of sexual harassment. Church often attracts vulnerable people and those in charge (usually men) do take advantage of them. Who wants to be that woman calling out a vicar who the rest of the parish hero worships?!!


----------



## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> A large number of the accusations I have heard in the UK are for minor things, and BTW women do thee things as well, but not many men report it or speak up about it.
> As I said those who are raped or sexually abused as children is a difference case.
> I think that maturity means doing things the right way and living a good life despite the abuse, as so many I know have done. If you are raped the police will indeed act, in a very strong way, as they will for child abuse and serious sexual assaults. My family has lots of experience of this.
> 
> Making out that a member of the opposite sex touching your knee is as bad as proper abuse is madness. Just tell him in a loud voice to get his hand off your knee or move it yourself. Problems sorted. People today don't seem to be able to stand up for themselves at all and seem to want everyone to think they are poor victims to get attention, well that's what facebook and twitter and such like have made us into.


Yuk, just yuk. 

FB et al have made it possible for people (men and women) to now stand up with the knowledge they have others support. Many of these crimes were well before the FB era so your point is moot.

So a young school girl on a crowded train is indecently molested and that is OK? She should just say in a loud voice "don't touch me?" 
A woman working a a pub and made to wear a skimpy outfit is molested by a patron and then when reported her boss says "well at least some guy got lucky tonight."
etc etc
These things are OK with you and the victims should just get over it?

This is about boundaries, some people were never taught that it is wrong to cross into someone else's personal space and touch them. It is never OK and to say people should just brush it off is victim blaming. The church is very good at child abuse and then covering it up so I'm not surprised you have a blame the victim mentality. 

Truly disgusting.


----------



## sokillme

Diana7 said:


> There is a massive difference between a rape, as in someone forcing you to have sex against your will, or being abused or molested as a child, to a man or women putting their hand on your knee, trying to kiss you, or making a rude comment.
> 
> Making a fuss over the latter is madness, practically all men and women will have had that happen, and most just get over it in 10 seconds and move on if they are mature people. The former cases of serious rape and abuse are a different story. Most of the people I know who were abused as children for example would never join in with this silly 'me too' thing. Most are brave people who don't go round telling people to get sympathy. If you have been abused or sexually assaulted then go to the police, not the media and accuse people who are judged as guilty before any sort of trial has taken place.
> 
> A govt minister in Wales has just killed himself after being accused of very minor offences and sacked. He wasn't even told what the accusations were before he was sacked. He wasn't found guilty or given any opportunity to defend himself. He wasn't in a good place mentally due to other things and this tipped him over the edge and he leaves a devastated wife and children. No one should be named until found guilty in a court of law.
> 
> We have no way of knowing how many of these accusations are made up, they are all taken as gospel truth. Its a witch hunt.


First of all in the minister in Wales case which I did a little reading about just now, we don't know the story either way so you can't say it was a witch hunt. Though maybe it should have been handled better with due process. That story is way different then a hashtag anyway. 

I my mind there is a difference between harassment and rape obviously but it doesn't let the person who harasses another off the hook. The only thing that really needs to be said it don't try to make sexual contact with someone in a business setting. Period. I don't see it any difference then don't pick your nose. It's inappropriate (duh). Besides that if it is a casual setting you need to have pretty much established that there is some mutual sexual interest (again duh).

Here is a good way to think about it for guys who are straight. Assume you are in a business setting or just a normal get together with people you don't know very well and a gay colleague of yours did to you what you are about to do to this female associate, would you be cool with it? If not don't do it. Period. I have had this kind of thing happen to me with presumably gay men twice in my lifetime, once when I was about 13. Both times I pissed me off. I can only imagine if it was a common occurrence. By the way that last statement was not about homosexuality it was about unwanted physical contact. If it is sexual in nature it pisses you off. That was the point of the hashtag, and more power to them. 

Now I also met my wife at my job, somehow I was able not to kiss or grope her for a long time, I didn't put my hand down her pants, grab her knee or whip my **** out and jack in front of her either. You know how I did it. I'm not a pig. Nope I made it quite clear I wanted to date her, I waited for her reply. I courted her and eventually things progressed. 

It's pretty simple actually. Could I be falsely accused. Sure, not too worried about it. I don't have any inappropriate relationships. I also have a much better chance of dying in a car crash. I don't worry about that either.


----------



## Mr. Nail

On the self defense note, My oldest Daughter was beat by a neighbor boy with a piece of lightweight metal tubing. I had a friend who taught Karate. An arrangement was quickly made. Years later, late teens, I snuck up behind her in a store and touched her ( I don't recall exactly, but I do stay out of the strike zone as a general practice). Well to make a long story short, I got bruised, she got embarrassed, and we both knew she could take care of her self.


----------



## peacem

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4Ne...kKuI4-FZW2LyBBB6nuuh6pMwGm6eAW3Fo&pnref=story

Another story of a woman being raped by a CofE priest and it being institutionally covered up by the Bishop


----------



## Red Sonja

Diana7 said:


> There is a massive difference between a rape, as in someone forcing you to have sex against your will, or being abused or molested as a child, to a man or women putting their hand on your knee, trying to kiss you, or making a rude comment.


There you go again minimizing other people's experiences.  I sincerely hope you never experience having your breasts and/or crotch grabbed by a stranger in public.

After I was raped, at age 25, I learned Aikido and have been practicing it ever since. Anyone stranger who gropes me in the aforementioned manner is put on the ground, in seconds. Yes, I have done that before and I would do it again.


----------



## uhtred

There is a difference between an inappropriate touch and rape, but it is a matter of degree. There is a continuum between these. From a hand on a knee to grabbing a breast to more and more severe forms of molestation and rape.

While the most serious cases should get the most attention, its worth trying to stop the others as well because of the danger that they will escalate






Diana7 said:


> There is a massive difference between a rape, as in someone forcing you to have sex against your will, or being abused or molested as a child, to a man or women putting their hand on your knee, trying to kiss you, or making a rude comment.
> 
> Making a fuss over the latter is madness, practically all men and women will have had that happen, and most just get over it in 10 seconds and move on if they are mature people. The former cases of serious rape and abuse are a different story. Most of the people I know who were abused as children for example would never join in with this silly 'me too' thing. Most are brave people who don't go round telling people to get sympathy. If you have been abused or sexually assaulted then go to the police, not the media and accuse people who are judged as guilty before any sort of trial has taken place.
> 
> A govt minister in Wales has just killed himself after being accused of very minor offences and sacked. He wasn't even told what the accusations were before he was sacked. He wasn't found guilty or given any opportunity to defend himself. He wasn't in a good place mentally due to other things and this tipped him over the edge and he leaves a devastated wife and children. No one should be named until found guilty in a court of law.
> 
> We have no way of knowing how many of these accusations are made up, they are all taken as gospel truth. Its a witch hunt.


----------



## TX-SC

It's truly sad that this is so prevalent. My wife says she has not experienced this, or if so it was minor. As a 48 year old male, I have experiences that happened in my past that were unwanted (by me) but certainly not rape.

I agree that each person has their own definition of what is minor or major and it effects each person differently. I have had my crotch grabbed and my butt slapped, and I have been "pressured" into sex that I didn't want to partake in, but none of those were rape and none of them scarred me.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Ynot

uhtred said:


> You are conflating two VERY different things here.
> 
> If you are making out with a woman (by which I assume stroking, french kissing etc), putting your hand in her shirt is reasonable. It is fine for her to tell you to stop - and of course you should, but going one additional step in making out isn't harassment / assault to me.
> 
> The other case is completely different. I don't care if a woman is a porn star and known for having sex with lots of guys. *I* don't get to assume she wants sex with *me*, no matter how awesome I am. I don't get to take any more liberties with her than with the woman who sits next to me in church. I can ask her on a date. I can gradually escalate if she does so as well, but no more.
> 
> Each interaction has to be treated separately. Behavior in other relationships doesn't apply.
> 
> In addition, in a workplace environment the rules are different. I don't care if one of my direct reports is a former porn star, or even does camming at home. In the work environment she has the same right to be free of harassment as does anyone else.


I am not conflating anything. I am talking about CLAIMS, You can assume whatever you want, but if a woman is giving the signals and then backs out. That is not sexual harassment/assault. That is imply mixed signals and it does not rise to the level of destroying a career.


----------



## Red Sonja

Ynot said:


> I am not conflating anything. I am talking about CLAIMS, You can assume whatever you want, but if a woman is giving the signals and then backs out. That is not sexual harassment/assault. That is imply mixed signals and it does not rise to the level of destroying a career.


How, exactly does a woman "give the signals" in a work environment?


----------



## Diana7

peacem said:


> @Diana7
> 
> As a church lady do you remember this?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxwdyF3qZj8
> 
> A CofE priest who had sexually assaulted many young women in his care. The reason nobody said anything or took so long to report it is because he had managed to brainwash them into thinking they were doing the "Lords work". It was also bringing in a lot of money and a lot of new recruits, no christian woman wanted to ruin what was happening in Sheffield at the time - bringing young people into the faith. So they did things he told them simply out of obligation and fear.
> 
> Now this may seem very strange to anyone who hasn't been in that situation. After this scandal came out in the open (eventually as the Bishops were doing a very good job of covering the whole thing up) lots of people were coming forward in my own church to speak up of sexual harassment. Church often attracts vulnerable people and those in charge (usually men) do take advantage of them. Who wants to be that woman calling out a vicar who the rest of the parish hero worships?!!


Its sad that these women believed what he was saying! If that happened to me I would have blown the whistle immediately and gone to the police. As it happens having been to many churches over the last 60 years, and got to know countless people, that sort of thing is rare.


----------



## peacem

Diana7 said:


> Its sad that these women believed what he was saying! If that happened to me I would have blown the whistle immediately and gone to the police. As it happens having been to many churches over the last 60 years, and got to know countless people, *that sort of thing is rare*.


...yeah you would think so wouldn't you?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...urged-to-tackle-sexual-abuse-within-its-ranks

https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...sexual.harassment.in.its.own.ranks/117485.htm

https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...t.after.rape.claims.against.priest/117868.htm

https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...iest.and.i.know.the.systems.broken/117851.htm

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/artic...in-the-church-women-say#.WgXsSRhKWPM.facebook

'Unprecedented' criticism of Church of England in sexual abuse report - ITV News (this is about child abuse in the church but mostly about how the powers that be cover up when people speak out)

Tessera: Sexual Abuse of Women in the Church

This lady lectures on systematic abuse of women in american churches which she attributes to narcissistic personality disordered people being attracted to positions of power and trust. 



HTML:


www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BU3pwBa0qU

My sister is currently researching this subject as part of her pHD and something that she said to me recently is that Church people become very very defensive when someone does speak out. The woman who is currently in the media for speaking out has received an awful amount of hate from people who allege to be fellow Christians. One of the reasons she didn't speak out was because all she could think about was destroying someone's marriage and breaking up the family home. So she kept quiet. Other women have their own reasons, sometimes it is just immaturity, vulnerability, made to think they have asked for it (must have given the wrong vibes), sometimes they don't speak out because they don't want to bring scandal to a church that they revere. Sometimes women and children who are abused over a long period of time develop Stockholm syndrome where they protect their abusers. (Abusers are not always violent and unpleasant - sometimes manipulative and charming). It is also clear that when women do speak out the Bishops do not act upon it, tell them to keep quiet, and cover it up. So the likes of you and me do not always get to hear about things that go on behind closed vestry doors.


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## sandcastle

Is it really that prevalent ?

Yep!
Warren Jeff, Catholic Priests, famous actors, producers, high school coaches, mothers, fathers, high School teachers, US Gymnastics, next door neighbor, older sibling, favorite uncle/aunt, babysitter, OB/GYN, senators, congressman, PRESIDENTS. 



Feel free to add to list.


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## Elizabeth001

sandcastle said:


> Is it really that prevalent ?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep!
> 
> Warren Jeff, Catholic Priests, famous actors, producers, high school coaches, mothers, fathers, high School teachers, US Gymnastics, next door neighbor, older sibling, favorite uncle/aunt, babysitter, OB/GYN, senators, congressman, PRESIDENTS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to add to list.




You left out that dentist guy feeling up women while they were knocked out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sandcastle

Elizabeth001 said:


> You left out that dentist guy feeling up women while they were knocked out.
> 
> 
> Him too!
> 
> Piano teacher, nanny, pool person-
> 
> Any sexual pervert and they encompass every possible job description.
> 
> Position of Power?
> 
> Sick effers are raping 9 month old babies and posting it on the Dark Web.
> 
> Is it really that prevelant?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ynot

Red Sonja said:


> How, exactly does a woman "give the signals" in a work environment?


Believe it or not there are women who use sex to get ahead in this world. Or are you not aware of that?


----------



## sandcastle

Ynot said:


> Believe it or not there are women who use sex to get ahead in this world. Or are you not aware of that?




Boom.

All those upstanding wayward spouses are boinking someone in the workplace.

According to the latest studies.


----------



## VibrantWings

Ynot said:


> Believe it or not there are women who use sex to get ahead in this world. Or are you not aware of that?


Still interested in knowing exactly what these signals are?

Oh and a guy imagining that I want to blow him and me actually blowing him are two distinctly different things. Or are you not aware of that?


----------



## sandcastle

VibrantWings said:


> Still interested in knowing exactly what these signals are?


Huh?


----------



## VibrantWings

sandcastle said:


> Huh?


Huh back?


----------



## sandcastle

sandcastle said:


> Huh?


I'll play.
Having sex in the women's bathroom?

Is that a sign?

Sex under the desk.

Sex in the parking lot around the corner from the office?

Naked pictures sent from the phone. That one is just so scintillating.


Do you live in some bubble that the rest of the world has no idea exists?

Secretaries in my bubble never flirt.
Men in my bubble never look at hot young secretaries.


----------



## VibrantWings

sandcastle said:


> I'll play.
> Having sex in the women's bathroom?
> 
> Is that a sign?
> 
> Sex under the desk.
> 
> Sex in the parking lot around the corner from the office?
> 
> Naked pictures sent from the phone. That one is just so scintillating.
> 
> 
> Do you live in some bubble that the rest of the world has no idea exists?
> 
> Secretaries in my bubble never flirt.
> Men in my bubble never look at hot young secretaries.


Not sure what you're playing- was quoting Ynot asking for specific examples. 

Personally, I believe that if someone is sending you naked pics, then it's a good sign they want to do something sexual with you. If they're sending you that on work time to a work computer then it can be classified as some type of harrassment and could get them fired. I'm speaking in terms of male or female. 

Women don't send me naked pics btw- I'm heterosexual and have no interest in that. Have seen some beautiful **** photos though 0 but just never had them sent to me at work. Don't go there at work with anyone- I value and need my job *shrugs*

If someone is actually ****ing you in the bathroom at work, I would say that's not a sign that can be misinterpreted. 
"Signals" though....that word sounds a little more cryptic to me.


----------



## 269370

Ynot said:


> While I am not downplaying the harm of real sexual assault, way too often these allegations come across as failed or bad attempts at flirting. Again I am not talking about overt physical acts, but the ones where a guy suggested something and nothing ever happened. To ruin someone's career over something like that is sad. I am sure we all have had some incident in our lives where we may have suggested to a person we were interested and that something more is possible and got shot down.
> 
> OTOH less than a year ago I went on a date with a woman. We went to dinner, saw a movie and closed a bar down. When we got in the car she climbed on my lap and started making out. She jokingly said that she felt like she was raping me. As things got hotter I put my hand up her shirt (up the back, not the front). She immediately stopped me. The next day, she told me how she had felt pressured and did not want to go that far. Needless to say that was the last time I saw her. It had nothing to do with taking things slow, it had everything to do with the inconsistency between her actions (nearly raping me) and her words (wanting to wait)
> 
> So I sometimes have to wonder




Her game was: she wanted to be in control. You should have just let her ‘rape’ you (provided you were comfortable with that...).
You ‘violated’ the rules by not abiding by her rules. 
We do play those games sometimes but I can imagine it’s a bit unusual if you don’t know each other well enough.
That’s completely separate to what is being discussed here, sorry.
What’s being discussed here: it is very prevalent among both sexes but there are also a lot of misunderstandings/grey areas which gets the baby thrown out with the bath water.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sandcastle

VibrantWings said:


> Not sure what you're playing- was quoting Ynot asking for specific examples.
> 
> Personally, I believe that if someone is sending you naked pics, then it's a good sign they want to do something sexual with you. If they're sending you that on work time to a work computer then it can be classified as some type of harrassment and could get them fired. I'm speaking in terms of male or female.
> 
> Women don't send me naked pics btw- me.


Ok- 

I guess you are not on the hot list.and you would be entirely correct.
Women sending you selfies of them in the shower- naked- would be your first clue she is not talking about payroll. Or maybe she is.

And most people are smart enough to not do this type of communication where IT picks it up.

Next.


----------



## ConanHub

I have had female physicians flirt and touch me unprofessionally during an exam.

I didn't feel threatened though.


----------



## VibrantWings

sandcastle said:


> Ok-
> 
> I guess you are not on the hot list.and you would be entirely correct.
> Women sending you selfies of them in the shower- naked- would be your first clue she is not talking about payroll. Or maybe she is.
> 
> And most people are smart enough to not do this type of communication where IT picks it up.
> 
> Next.


Sorry you're having such a bad day and needed to come to the internet to spew vitriol at strangers who weren't even talking to you. 

Have you tried to meditate? Perhaps stepping away from your keyboard and taking a walk would benefit you more than railroading a thread about sexual abuse survivors.


----------



## 269370

katies said:


> I think the women speaking up about the abuse are incredibly brave and mature. It's not a minor thing in life to be raped or assaulted. That encompasses most of the accusations against the celebrities in the most current issues.
> 
> Again, being kissed or touched without your consent is not something to be taken lightly. Its abusive and should be treated as such.
> 
> And many women don't go to the police because nothing is done. Or they have and there is no proof and what a DA can't prove they wont' touch.
> 
> But the worst thing is making people victims AGAIN because you poo poo it. Disgusting.




She wrote ‘if someone TRIED to kiss you’. Big difference. Imagine you have a conversation with a guy and for whatever reason he starts leaning over with his lips ‘in position’. You back away. He stops. Awkward moment. Is it sexual assault?
Obviously context is important here.
But as long as you want to stop them - AND THEY DO, that’s not really sexual assault, is it? Or is it. I have no idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Diana7 said:


> A large number of the accusations I have heard in the UK are for minor things, and BTW women do thee things as well, but not many men report it or speak up about it.



That’s the trouble - there are inherent double standards prevalent when it comes to sexes, for better or for worse (mostly for worse).
If, as an adult man (which I am), an attractive woman or celebrity grabbed my junk, my first instinct would be: I would be flattered probably. But next thought would be: “oh crap, that’s probably not appropriate or maybe that’s just to welcome me to Hollywood...”. And put a stop to it. (I very much hope so).
If it was the reverse, there would no doubt be a **** storm. And rightly so.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> I have had female physicians flirt and touch me unprofessionally during an exam.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't feel threatened though.




Did you have to cough when she ‘cupped’ it?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## uhtred

We really need specific examples. If a woman sends a nude selfie at work its completely reasonable to report her to HR, that is not appropriate workplace behavior. OTOH if you you want to take her up on that offer, (hopefully outside of the work environment), then you can respond in kind or with mild escalation - responding to a nude selfie with a nude video of your own should be fine. You can ask her out on a date. etc. Of course you can't rape her - she hasn't consented to sexual intercourse, she has indicate interest in some form of sexual interaction. 

One key is that the nude selfies need to have been sent to *you*. If she send them to someone else, that doesn't provide you with any approval to do anything. 

What is the situation you are talking about? What signals were sent, how did you (or some other man) respond, and what harassment / assault charges were made?


I have had women flirt with me at work - but it was always a gradual escalation until someone reached the level they were comfortable with and the escalation stopped. (this was all very low level). I have seen people at work develop workplace romances - but again it all was done in a gradual way.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a little flirting but not wanting to go beyond some point. 




Ynot said:


> I am not conflating anything. I am talking about CLAIMS, You can assume whatever you want, but if a woman is giving the signals and then backs out. That is not sexual harassment/assault. That is imply mixed signals and it does not rise to the level of destroying a career.


----------



## 269370

uhtred said:


> You are conflating two VERY different things here.
> 
> If you are making out with a woman (by which I assume stroking, french kissing etc), putting your hand in her shirt is reasonable. It is fine for her to tell you to stop - and of course you should, but going one additional step in making out isn't harassment / assault to me.
> 
> The other case is completely different. I don't care if a woman is a porn star and known for having sex with lots of guys. *I* don't get to assume she wants sex with *me*, no matter how awesome I am. I don't get to take any more liberties with her than with the woman who sits next to me in church. I can ask her on a date. I can gradually escalate if she does so as well, but no more.
> 
> Each interaction has to be treated separately. Behavior in other relationships doesn't apply.
> 
> In addition, in a workplace environment the rules are different. I don't care if one of my direct reports is a former porn star, or even does camming at home. In the work environment she has the same right to be free of harassment as does anyone else.


Not just one additional step: basically as soon as someone tells you to stop (or uses a safe word), you stop.

What about a more extreme case (totally hypothetical): a woman at a club had perhaps one drink too many, guy hits on her, makes advances, at first she protests - she doesn't really fancy him - but eventually gives in, comes back home with him, they have sex, they fall asleep. The next morning she feels disgusted with herself, regrets it, feels that she was pressured into it as she didn't want any of it at all and decides the guy raped her. (I am not saying this happens a lot btw, not at all, just looking at this particular case). What is the legal position here if she presses charges? Did the guy take advantage of her being intoxicated? Was it rape? Was there consent if she was not of 'sound mind' at the time? Should the guy have known she was not of sound mind?
I have no idea - interested in opinion.
The only problem as I see it: we (both men and women) do have a way of sometimes changing the narrative after an event with hindsight (usually correctly, as we had more time to process it rationally, but sometimes incorrectly, especially if we make a mistake). That doesn't always happen but sometimes it does happen.


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Did you have to cough when she ‘cupped’ it?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL! I've actually never been messed with there by a doctor but a sonogram technician got "friendly" during an exam for a groin injury.


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> LOL! I've actually never been messed with there by a doctor but a sonogram technician got "friendly" during an exam for a groin injury.


Lucky you! (if she was hot). See, that's just so...inappropriate...


----------



## alte Dame

When I was young, I was very aware of predators. Most men acted decently, but there were clear predators out there, many, many more than the decent men I knew could imagine.

Whenever I was out in public I had to be on the lookout. The man who trapped me against a bus window on an overnight trip and proceeded to grab my crotch. The two men who chased me down in a railroad station in Germany. The men who followed me home trying to lure me into their cars. The man sitting next to me on the plane who aggressively caged me in and touched me. I was date-raped when I was in college. I told an assistant for the Dean of Students, but never noticed anything happening. That same year, a good friend brought a date back to her room - he locked the door and used threats and force to rape her. A close friend was molested by her uncle relentlessly when she was small. Her mother and family simply wouldn't believe it, even when other girls in the family came forward. Many of us spoke up and pleaded for help or redress, but we received no support. What was I, a poor scholarship student, going to do to get some 'justice' or sound the alarm when the son of the president of a multinational company date-raped me? I was told it probably wasn't even rape.

For all the people here who are calling out the woman for staying silent, I have this to say: When you tell people, sometimes all the right people in authority, and no one cares, then you have no choice but to go on with your life. My experiences were common and not at all extreme.

There are predators out there and the decent ones among us are always shocked by this. Their shock speaks to their decency.


----------



## NextTimeAround

uhtred said:


> Arguing what some person, not present in the conversation, means by a term is not going to get anywhere.
> 
> When I use the term "harassment" I mean the clear cases where there is some for of threat / coercion.


I define harassment in the workplace where you are singled out and disadvantaged. 

When I worked for big pharma, they had a sexual harassment seminar for everyone. One of the examples in which the employer agreed was sexual harassment was one in which a woman is singled out to engage in activities deemed to be inferior to her position AND nonen of her peers are ever asked to carry out this duty. ie. always being required to take minutes in meetings; always being required to take care of the refreshments and so on.........


----------



## NextTimeAround

inmyprime said:


> Her game was: she wanted to be in control. You should have just let her ‘rape’ you (provided you were comfortable with that...).
> You ‘violated’ the rules by not abiding by her rules.
> We do play those games sometimes but I can imagine it’s a bit unusual if you don’t know each other well enough.
> That’s completely separate to what is being discussed here, sorry.
> What’s being discussed here: it is very prevalent among both sexes but there are also a lot of misunderstandings/grey areas which gets the baby thrown out with the bath water.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Another example of passive aggression.


----------



## CuddleBug

TX-SC said:


> I'm seeing all of the "Me too" stories about sexual harassment and sexual assault. Are you guys seeing this often? Is it really that prevalent in our society? If so, it's really sad!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk




- Out of all the places I've worked, I have never seen sexual harassment.


- Guys see the hot ladies but they only look, talk and flirt. That's it.


- I've never seen or heard of physical sexual harassment in any of my work places and I've never seen anyone fired for doing so.


- If a hot woman at my work physically sexually touched "harassed" me, would I freak out? No. It's every guys dream, right? But we know that doesn't happen.


----------



## Red Sonja

Red Sonja said:


> How, exactly does a woman "give the signals" in a work environment?


Still waiting for an answer @Ynot, it's a simple enough question.

As for those answering for you with "sending shower selfies" and "sex in the bathroom" ... do you work in brothels?


----------



## 269370

Red Sonja said:


> Still waiting for an answer @Ynot, it's a simple enough question.
> 
> As for those answering for you with "sending shower selfies" and "sex in the bathroom" ... do you work in brothels?


I think he was referring to his particular case (in the car), where the woman wanted to 'rape' him (sending him the 'signals') but then backed out when he responded to her - the context seems quite clear to me - i don't really understand all this questioning.
People seem to just read snippets and fly off the handle for no apparent reason. Kinda tiring.


----------



## Red Sonja

inmyprime said:


> I think he was referring to his particular case (in the car), where the woman wanted to 'rape' him (sending him the 'signals') but then backed out when he responded to her - the context seems quite clear to me - i don't really understand all this questioning.
> People seem to just read snippets and fly off the handle for no apparent reason. Kinda tiring.


LOL, go back and re-read ... he was replying to a post discussing workplace environments. The situation you are referring to was pages prior.

I asked the question because I genuinely want to know what men consider as "sending signals" in the workplace.


----------



## VibrantWings

Red Sonja said:


> LOL, go back and re-read ... he was replying to a post discussing workplace environments. The situation you are referring to was pages prior.
> 
> *I asked the question because I genuinely want to know what men consider as "sending signals" in the workplace*.


Yep, what I was wondering, too. I have seen a woman smiling at someone and saying good morning get misconstrued by some when she was simply being polite. 

And yeah, all these wild sounding sex hook ups during the middle of the workday sound like a stretch to me, as well. Someone has one hell of a benefit package or the boss needs to pull his head out of his/her hind end (if any of this is even true)


----------



## 269370

Red Sonja said:


> LOL, go back and re-read ... he was replying to a post discussing workplace environments. The situation you are referring to was pages prior.
> 
> I asked the question because I genuinely want to know what men consider as "sending signals" in the workplace.


I am sure he can answer himself but this is what he wrote:

"I am not conflating anything. I am talking about CLAIMS, You can assume whatever you want, but *if a woman is giving the signals and then backs out*. That is not sexual harassment/assault. That is imply mixed signals and it does not rise to the level of destroying a career."

He is clearly referring to his case with the backing out. You then picked up on 'mixed signals'. In his case, yes, the crazy woman in the car sent him mixed signals, for sure. I would also be a bit stunned (and worry about my employment the next day). There's no need to escalate this into an argument. I don't think any men here really think that women *want* to be sexually harassed...This just isn't the case.


----------



## Red Sonja

inmyprime said:


> I am sure he can answer himself but this is what he wrote:
> 
> "I am not conflating anything. I am talking about CLAIMS, You can assume whatever you want, but *if a woman is giving the signals and then backs out*. That is not sexual harassment/assault. That is imply mixed signals and it does not rise to the level of destroying a career."
> 
> He is clearly referring to his case with the backing out. You then picked up on 'mixed signals'. In his case, yes, the crazy woman in the car sent him mixed signals, for sure. I would also be a bit stunned (and worry about my employment the next day). There's no need to escalate this into an argument. I don't think any men here really think that women *want* to be sexually harassed...This just isn't the case.


You are the one arguing, I was only asking for clarification of a term that @Ynot used.

Peace.


----------



## sandcastle

VibrantWings said:


> Sorry you're having such a bad day and needed to come to the internet to spew vitriol at strangers who weren't even talking to you.
> 
> Have you tried to meditate? Perhaps stepping away from your keyboard and taking a walk would benefit you more than railroading a thread about sexual abuse survivors.



Excuse me?


----------



## sandcastle

Red Sonja said:


> As for those answering for you with "sending shower selfies" and "sex in the bathroom" ... do you work in brothels?


Yeah- that nonsense only takes place in brothels.


----------



## 269370

Red Sonja said:


> You are the one arguing, I was only asking for clarification of a term that @Ynot used.
> 
> Peace.


Sorry, I misunderstood your tone then  Been watching too many feminist videos today.


----------



## VibrantWings

sandcastle said:


> Excuse me?


I already have


----------



## sandcastle

VibrantWings said:


> I already have [/
> 
> Thanks!


----------



## Slartibartfast

..


----------



## uhtred

In your more extreme case:

When you say she "protests" his advances - that covers a lot of ground. Is she telling him to leave her alone or just saying "no for the moment". If he continues after she has told him to leave her alone, then its harassment.

When she does go with him, how drunk is she? I consider this the trickiest issue. For me, I would never have sex with a woman who was more than slightly drunk if for no other reason than not wanting to feel that she had to be drunk in order to desire me. 

I think the entire consent while intoxicated question is really tricky. I don't drink and won't spent time with anyone who drinks heavily. 

I don't drive or fly drunk, I'm not going to have sex drunk. 




inmyprime said:


> Not just one additional step: basically as soon as someone tells you to stop (or uses a safe word), you stop.
> 
> What about a more extreme case (totally hypothetical): a woman at a club had perhaps one drink too many, guy hits on her, makes advances, at first she protests - she doesn't really fancy him - but eventually gives in, comes back home with him, they have sex, they fall asleep. The next morning she feels disgusted with herself, regrets it, feels that she was pressured into it as she didn't want any of it at all and decides the guy raped her. (I am not saying this happens a lot btw, not at all, just looking at this particular case). What is the legal position here if she presses charges? Did the guy take advantage of her being intoxicated? Was it rape? Was there consent if she was not of 'sound mind' at the time? Should the guy have known she was not of sound mind?
> I have no idea - interested in opinion.
> The only problem as I see it: we (both men and women) do have a way of sometimes changing the narrative after an event with hindsight (usually correctly, as we had more time to process it rationally, but sometimes incorrectly, especially if we make a mistake). That doesn't always happen but sometimes it does happen.


----------



## uhtred

I would have called that discrimination / bias - also illegal. 




NextTimeAround said:


> I define harassment in the workplace where you are singled out and disadvantaged.
> 
> When I worked for big pharma, they had a sexual harassment seminar for everyone. One of the examples in which the employer agreed was sexual harassment was one in which a woman is singled out to engage in activities deemed to be inferior to her position AND nonen of her peers are ever asked to carry out this duty. ie. always being required to take minutes in meetings; always being required to take care of the refreshments and so on.........


----------



## 269370

uhtred said:


> In your more extreme case:
> 
> When you say she "protests" his advances - that covers a lot of ground. Is she telling him to leave her alone or just saying "no for the moment". If he continues after she has told him to leave her alone, then its harassment.


She does not know and he does not know. If he says: "Shall we go upstairs to my place?" She will say "not right now". She might mean "leave me alone" and he might take it literally. It's tricky.



uhtred said:


> When she does go with him, how drunk is she? I consider this the trickiest issue. For me, I would never have sex with a woman who was more than slightly drunk if for no other reason than not wanting to feel that she had to be drunk in order to desire me.
> 
> I think the entire consent while intoxicated question is really tricky. I don't drink and won't spent time with anyone who drinks heavily.
> 
> I don't drive or fly drunk, I'm not going to have sex drunk.


How do you know how drunk you are and it's even more difficult to assess how drunk she is. She is not unconscious obviously. It all relies on common sense and subjective judgement: I am just curious how it would play out in practice, in court, as it currently stands.

I assume there must be a lot of not very clear cut cases like this and I guess the jury will look at 'patterns of behaviour'. Because it will essentially be her word against his. I have read of many cases like this. What worries me that if sexual harassment becomes a political statement and the issue goes too far (in terms of what is harassment and what isn't), it will basically be best to just not talk to women at all until they 'mount you' (like in @Ynot's case and even then, it wasn't clear if she felt harassed afterwards).
I realise it was too much the other way in the past (women's statements were not taken seriously or acknowledged/dealt with properly which was unacceptable).


----------



## ConanHub

VibrantWings said:


> Yep, what I was wondering, too. I have seen a woman smiling at someone and saying good morning get misconstrued by some when she was simply being polite.
> 
> And yeah, all these wild sounding sex hook ups during the middle of the workday sound like a stretch to me, as well. Someone has one hell of a benefit package or the boss needs to pull his head out of his/her hind end (if any of this is even true)


I've definitely never seen things like that either.

I have been groped, hugged with my arms pinned to my side, had breasts pushed against me and been flirted with heavily at work.

I had a woman even bite my chest (after work gathering) when she had to much to drink.

I don't want to exacerbate the gender wars but I would definitely be far more upset by these instances if I was female. 

I have never been in danger of being physically overwhelmed or overpowered by any of those women.


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> I have been groped, hugged with my arms pinned to my side, had breasts pushed against me and been flirted with heavily at work.


Sounds like a nightmare. Hope you recovered from this


----------



## 269370

This video is very relevant to the discussion and highlights the difficulty of having different perspectives:


----------



## VibrantWings

ConanHub said:


> I've definitely never seen things like that either.
> 
> I have been groped, hugged with my arms pinned to my side, had breasts pushed against me and been flirted with heavily at work.
> 
> I had a woman even bite my chest (after work gathering) when she had to much to drink.
> 
> I don't want to exacerbate the gender wars but I would definitely be far more upset by these instances if I was female.
> 
> I have never been in danger of being physically overwhelmed or overpowered by any of those women.


I work in a place that is a Residency Program for doctors that have graduated but get a job there to further their training. *This is all voluntary and not required in this particular field.

So I work with young doctors in their twenties. There was one that I jokingly referred to as "Prince Charming". He had the look, charm, brains, personality, etc. (yeah scary perfect):angel3:

All that being said, I GOT IT when some of the older women who were his patients would make comments about him. (jokingly...in a light way) The problem I had with it all was when they would hug him before he left (and that is kind of common with the young doctors and patients in that practice with the lady doctors and female patients) but....it looked like a grope more than a friendly hug to me. I saw this happen many times and the women would laugh and make comments to me about him when he was gone. It almost seemed like the Chippendale Dancers had came through and they wanted to put dollar bills in his g-string.
At the end of his residency we had a gathering for all residents to say goodbye (the rest of the staff and Faculty doctors stay there permanently). When it was my turn to speak I commended him for seeming to have such good humor about it all.
Why? Because every time I watched one of those older ladies grab him, I would wonder how it would have felt if the genders were reversed and some older guy grabbed onto a 20-something female doctor. The police may have ended up there in a role reversal. 

So yeah, I get what you're saying. 

Ever see the Southpark episode about the teacher dating the baby brother of one of the main characters and everyone acting like it's sooo great for the baby? It's kind of like that to me....


----------



## soccermom2three

I think I was around 12 years old when I realized that unwanted sexual attention was something I was going to have to deal with the rest of my life. My earliest recollection of being sexually harassed is around 12 years old by another 12 year old. 

This kid started really young and had no boundaries as far as touching others. One year in elementary school, on the first day of school, he grabbed my arm from across the desk and tried to give me some kind of burn by rubbing his hand in circles on my arm. Actually I think he was trying to knot the hairs on my arm or something. He also would snap my best friend's bra. Doesn't sound like much to some but to a 10-11 year old girl that has developed early it's mortifying and humiliating. We were always watching out for him. Then in junior high, this kid graduated to "goosing" the girls or putting his hand between their legs. His locker was near mine and I had to be on constant guard to make sure he wasn't around. 

When I look back on it, I wonder what the hell was going on in his home that he felt that it was okay to treat girls this way.


----------



## ConanHub

soccermom2three said:


> I think I was around 12 years old when I realized that unwanted sexual attention was something I was going to have to deal with the rest of my life. My earliest recollection of being sexually harassed is around 12 years old by another 12 year old.
> 
> This kid started really young and had no boundaries as far as touching others. One year in elementary school, on the first day of school, he grabbed my arm from across the desk and tried to give me some kind of burn by rubbing his hand in circles on my arm. Actually I think he was trying to knot the hairs on my arm or something. He also would snap my best friend's bra. Doesn't sound like much to some but to a 10-11 year old girl that has developed early it's mortifying and humiliating. We were always watching out for him. Then in junior high, this kid graduated to "goosing" the girls or putting his hand between their legs. His locker was near mine and I had to be on constant guard to make sure he wasn't around.
> 
> When I look back on it, I wonder what the hell was going on in his home that he felt that it was okay to treat girls this way.


A broken face and fingers are excellent medicine for someone like that.


----------



## Taxman

I am from the sixties and seventies and can remember sleazeballs in business harassing female staff and support, promising raises and advancement. I lost a great assistant because she caught a managing partner’s eye, and he tried to pressure her into th sack. I found her a position with another firm. When she had her degree and tenure she pursued charges, and was successful in having that partner humiliated and consequently stripped of his professional designation. The most damning evidence came from his ex wife.


----------



## NextTimeAround

ConanHub said:


> A broken face and fingers are excellent medicine for someone like that.


yes, I chcuckle at the thought of one incident I encoutnered. Early 20s here, and a bunch of us jumped into a car so we piled on top of each other trying to get somewhere. In the car, I felt a hand on my panties and I grabbed it and dug my nails into it. That hand withered away.

I just wish other incidents could be as easily dealt with.


----------



## katies

This thread is so triggery for me. And I cannot talk about it to my best friend, my husband, because it's like my rape raped him too.


----------



## ConanHub

NextTimeAround said:


> yes, I chcuckle at the thought of one incident I encoutnered. Early 20s here, and a bunch of us jumped into a car so we piled on top of each other trying to get somewhere. In the car, I felt a hand on my panties and I grabbed it and dug my nails into it. That hand withered away.
> 
> I just wish other incidents could be as easily dealt with.


LOL! Agreed!>


----------



## ConanHub

katies said:


> This thread is so triggery for me. And I cannot talk about it to my best friend, my husband, because it's like my rape raped him too.


Very sorry. Did it happen while you were married?


----------



## katies

ConanHub said:


> Very sorry. Did it happen while you were married?


yes, 7.5 years ago. We celebrate 30 years married next week.


----------



## Fozzy

ConanHub said:


> A broken face and fingers are excellent medicine for someone like that.


Eyes, Throat, Balls.


----------



## EllisRedding

Here is one thing I don't get. Someone posted online that any man who turned a blind eye is weak and complicit, but any female who never spoke up is considered a hero for speaking now. Depending on the situation, how is one different then the other? If a guy "turned a blind eye" for the same reason as a female (i.e. threats, job security, etc...), why is he considered weak/complicit? Notice as well, I am not blaming the victim for what happened to him/her, but the reality is (and for whatever reasons you may have) if you did not speak up over an assault that happened to you or that you are aware happened to someone else, you are in some form "complicit", at least in the sense of what this person was trying to say. This does not include people who did actually speak out and were ignored/dismissed.

Side note, I don't understand this whole "reverse sexism" concept. Shouldn't it just be called sexism, not reverse sexism or fast forward sexism or double skip sexism. Is it not a gender neutral term?


----------



## MJJEAN

Red Sonja said:


> Still waiting for an answer @Ynot, it's a simple enough question.
> 
> As for those answering for you with "sending shower selfies" and "sex in the bathroom" ... do you work in brothels?





VibrantWings said:


> Yep, what I was wondering, too. I have seen a woman smiling at someone and saying good morning get misconstrued by some when she was simply being polite.
> 
> And yeah, all these wild sounding sex hook ups during the middle of the workday sound like a stretch to me, as well. Someone has one hell of a benefit package or the boss needs to pull his head out of his/her hind end (if any of this is even true)


I've had sex at various places of employment, witnessed others doing the same, and I have a LOT of first hand accounts from people I trust who have had some awkward encounters when opening doors or going into parking lots.

Just off the top of my head...

I worked customer service on the afternoon shift (3 pm-midnight) for a telecom. Our breaks were scheduled, but if we had a long call or had to send a customer to a manager for resolution, we'd have to work through the break and take the break later. There were a few couples who'd set it up so they went on break at the same time and then they'd meet up in the bathroom or parking lot to either have oral/manual sex or, if they could get away with it, full on PIV. Most were married and cheating. 

I worked fast food, around 5 to close, part time when the kids were younger because the schedule was flexible and I could be there for them. One of the shift managers, who was engaged and sharing a home with her fiancee and their 2 young kids, would regularly sneak off into the back or the walk-in to blow the grill guy. And by grill guy, I mean whichever one of the 3 who worked afternoons and happened to be there when she was in the mood.

My husband is a truck driver. I don't have the time to go into how many of the gate chicks (the women who check the driver in and out, look for security violations, etc) at various locations were sneaking off to the truck or the guard shack or to a secluded spot in the yard where the stacks of rail car boxes blocked the view to have sex with a driver. These women get hit on all. the. time. and will occasionally decide they return the sentiment.

There was more than one company DH worked for that had office staff/driver or office staff/office staff affairs that took place on premises.

My brother works for factory and caught his boss getting oral from a line chick. This was a couple months ago. Apparently, the boss had been giving her a ride into work after her car died. They'd get there about 20 minutes before the first shift, go to the store room and do their thing, then go about their day. Brother came in early and walked right in on them in the act.

I read somewhere that meeting people and forming relationships is harder once you've passed your school years and are working full time just always busy before and after work with all the responsibilities of adulthood. I think that's where a lot of these workplace hook-ups come from. People are so busy and spend so much time at work that the people they are comfortable with and have bonds with are those they work with, so it progresses from there. 

For the dirty cheaters, at work is pretty much the only place they can do the deed with the least chance of evidence being discovered by their spouse/SO. They are where they said they were, at work, no less, which is verifiable via GPS. They don't need to send texts or emails to arrange meets. There isn't a hotel receipt. Etc. If they're smart and lucky or skilled enough to not get caught by the boss, it's almost the perfect crime. 

Personally, I wouldn't have an affair or any other relationship beyond platonic friendship with someone I worked with. I have a firm "Don't poop where you eat" policy. Other people? Not so much.


----------



## Fozzy

MJJEAN said:


> I've had sex at various places of employment, witnessed others doing the same, and I have a LOT of first hand accounts from people I trust who have had some awkward encounters when opening doors or going into parking lots.
> 
> Just off the top of my head...
> 
> I worked customer service on the afternoon shift (3 pm-midnight) for a telecom. Our breaks were scheduled, but if we had a long call or had to send a customer to a manager for resolution, we'd have to work through the break and take the break later. There were a few couples who'd set it up so they went on break at the same time and then they'd meet up in the bathroom or parking lot to either have oral/manual sex or, if they could get away with it, full on PIV. Most were married and cheating.
> 
> I worked fast food, around 5 to close, part time when the kids were younger because the schedule was flexible and I could be there for them. One of the shift managers, who was engaged and sharing a home with her fiancee and their 2 young kids, would regularly sneak off into the back or the walk-in to blow the grill guy. And by grill guy, I mean whichever one of the 3 who worked afternoons and happened to be there when she was in the mood.
> 
> My husband is a truck driver. I don't have the time to go into how many of the gate chicks (the women who check the driver in and out, look for security violations, etc) at various locations were sneaking off to the truck or the guard shack or to a secluded spot in the yard where the stacks of rail car boxes blocked the view to have sex with a driver. These women get hit on all. the. time. and will occasionally decide they return the sentiment.
> 
> There was more than one company DH worked for that had office staff/driver or office staff/office staff affairs that took place on premises.
> 
> My brother works for factory and caught his boss getting oral from a line chick. This was a couple months ago. Apparently, the boss had been giving her a ride into work after her car died. They'd get there about 20 minutes before the first shift, go to the store room and do their thing, then go about their day. Brother came in early and walked right in on them in the act.
> 
> I read somewhere that meeting people and forming relationships is harder once you've passed your school years and are working full time just always busy before and after work with all the responsibilities of adulthood. I think that's where a lot of these workplace hook-ups come from. People are so busy and spend so much time at work that the people they are comfortable with and have bonds with are those they work with, so it progresses from there.
> 
> For the dirty cheaters, at work is pretty much the only place they can do the deed with the least chance of evidence being discovered by their spouse/SO. They are where they said they were, at work, no less, which is verifiable via GPS. They don't need to send texts or emails to arrange meets. There isn't a hotel receipt. Etc. If they're smart and lucky or skilled enough to not get caught by the boss, it's almost the perfect crime.
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't have an affair or any other relationship beyond platonic friendship with someone I worked with. I have a firm "Don't poop where you eat" policy. Other people? Not so much.



Yup. When I used to work retail many years ago, employees would be getting it on anywhere they could make it happen. And our store was NASTY. Didn't stop them from doing it. Pretty gross.


----------



## CharlieParker

MJJEAN said:


> Personally, I wouldn't have an affair or any other relationship beyond platonic friendship with someone I worked with.


I had sex with a coworker while on an out of town assignment. She was technically cheating. We still work together but haven't had sex at the office in years. Worked out OK, married 25 years. YMMV.


----------



## NextTimeAround

MJJEAN said:


> I've had sex at various places of employment, witnessed others doing the same, and I have a LOT of first hand accounts from people I trust who have had some awkward encounters when opening doors or going into parking lots.
> 
> Just off the top of my head...
> 
> I worked customer service on the afternoon shift (3 pm-midnight) for a telecom. Our breaks were scheduled, but if we had a long call or had to send a customer to a manager for resolution, we'd have to work through the break and take the break later. There were a few couples who'd set it up so they went on break at the same time and then they'd meet up in the bathroom or parking lot to either have oral/manual sex or, if they could get away with it, full on PIV. Most were married and cheating. ......


Was that weird working next to someone whom you know just had sex? I think people act differently after sex, usually a little more mellow but noticeably so. And did they smell?


----------



## ConanHub

katies said:


> yes, 7.5 years ago. We celebrate 30 years married next week.


That is what I thought. This is the place to share if you like.

Happened to me, my wife and nearly every woman I have known but not during my marriage or any relationship. 

I can empathize with your situation but am only guessing at the trouble you are experiencing in your marriage from the attack.


----------



## samyeagar

And then you get the situations where there is sexual contact and neither party is sober enough to give consent.


----------



## katies

ConanHub said:


> That is what I thought. This is the place to share if you like.
> 
> Happened to me, my wife and nearly every woman I have known but not during my marriage or any relationship.
> 
> I can empathize with your situation but am only guessing at the trouble you are experiencing in your marriage from the attack.


We got through it but it was awful. The "metoo" campaign made me want to talk about it again, not from a yes, it happened standpoint but because he blamed me for some of it and that just doesn't sit right with me. We don't talk about it because we'll never agree on this. 
And the police decided not to prosecute. We were so frustrated. Even a civil case we were encouraged not to bring, because of lack of evidence. 
I wish everyone knew this information about rape or not comment on it unless they understand:
MOST people freeze
MOST people do not go to the police right away because of shame. 
STOP asking them why they didn't yell, scream or fight.
STOP asking them why they didn't go to the police or the hospital right away.


----------



## MJJEAN

CharlieParker said:


> I had sex with a coworker while on an out of town assignment. She was technically cheating. We still work together but haven't had sex at the office in years. Worked out OK, married 25 years. YMMV.


I had a close friend who married a man she met at work. Sure, a workplace relationship can work out. I've just seen far too many go bad and I don't want the risk if I'm working a job I like and/or need.



NextTimeAround said:


> Was that weird working next to someone whom you know just had sex? I think people act differently after sex, usually a little more mellow but noticeably so. And did they smell?


No, it wasn't weird. We were all adults, adults have sex, why would it be weird? I never noticed anyone behaving too differently. Just a little more energetic and cheerful. Also never noticed anyone have a noticeable sex smell, but perfumes and body sprays are so prevalent that I imagine folks just reapplied their signature scent.


----------



## 269370

.


----------



## CharlieParker

MJJEAN said:


> I had a close friend who married a man she met at work. Sure, a workplace relationship can work out. I've just seen far too many go bad and I don't want the risk if I'm working a job I like and/or need.


I get it. It was my dad’s family business so it wasn’t quite as risky. 

Back on topic, years later my wife told me that my dad had brought her, alone, to his (my childhood) suburban home with intents of sex. She was 25ish and he was 50. She pretended to fall asleep under our cocker spaniel. Let’s just say it was awkward for me after I found out. She thought it was an F U to him when we got married, he tried but lost.


----------



## ConanHub

CharlieParker said:


> I get it. It was my dad’s family business so it wasn’t quite as risky.
> 
> Back on topic, years later my wife told me that my dad had brought her, alone, to his (my childhood) suburban home with intents of sex. She was 25ish and he was 50. She pretended to fall asleep under our cocker spaniel. Let’s just say it was awkward for me after I found out. She thought it was an F U to him when we got married, he tried but lost.


Ummm.....

Yuk...?!?


----------



## CharlieParker

ConanHub said:


> Ummm.....
> 
> Yuk...?!?


It’s ok, around the same time he was banging a stewardess. 

But he had money, many people like money. He wasn’t a good person but I do miss him.


----------



## Handy

I can say i never propositioned a female inappropriately and knew of only one guy that took advantage of a woman at work. The woman asked if she could some how get a sizeable discount on her car repair bill. This guy said he might be able to work something out at her house so the left and he came back an hour later.

When I was 18 and a girl came into the car repair shop where I worked. She was wearing a skimpy swim suit and asked me some flirty questions. Our shop was on the way to a lake so the skimpy swim outfit was sort of normal.

Maybe my "sex radar" doesn't pick up on sexual clues, or I was indoctrinated to act all proper almost all of the time and think it was wrong to make a woman uncomfortable when it comes to gender issues or sexuality.


----------



## ConanHub

CharlieParker said:


> I get it. It was my dad’s family business so it wasn’t quite as risky.
> 
> Back on topic, years later my wife told me that my dad had brought her, alone, to his (my childhood) suburban home with intents of sex. She was 25ish and he was 50. She pretended to fall asleep under our cocker spaniel. Let’s just say it was awkward for me after I found out. She thought it was an F U to him when we got married, he tried but lost.


Were you involved with her at the time?


----------



## CharlieParker

ConanHub said:


> Were you involved with her at the time?


No, we got together much later. Missed my chance at the Jerry Springer show.


----------



## ConanHub

CharlieParker said:


> No, we got together much later. Missed my chance at the Jerry Springer show.


Hahaha! WOW!

Reality is indeed stranger than fiction! Got a strange tale myself but that is for another thread!


----------



## Wolf1974

katies said:


> We got through it but it was awful. The "metoo" campaign made me want to talk about it again, not from a yes, it happened standpoint but because he blamed me for some of it and that just doesn't sit right with me. We don't talk about it because we'll never agree on this.
> And Thea *police decided not to prosecute*. We were so frustrated. Even a civil case we were encouraged not to bring, because of lack of evidence.
> I wish everyone knew this information about rape or not comment on it unless they understand:
> MOST people freeze
> MOST people do not go to the police right away because of shame.
> STOP asking them why they didn't yell, scream or fight.
> STOP asking them why they didn't go to the police or the hospital right away.


police don’t prosectute. That’s left up to the district attorneys office. Maybe you mean them or maybe you meant the police didn’t make an arrest?


----------



## katies

Yes it was the DA. But thanks for correcting the most important part of my story.


----------



## Diana7

If I was raped I would call the police immediately. There is no point in reporting it months or even year later, because any evidence has gone and there is no proof either way. 
Naming a man after many years is unfair because there is no way they can defend themselves and they are judged guilty even if they didn't do it. There have been many cases in the UK recently where men have been accused of rape or assault who didn't do it, and in a few cases where women were found to have definitely been lying, the women who made the story up were sent to jail(after they ruined the mans reputation by naming him). 
It seems to me that its women who are always believed and men who never are. There are some women about who are malicious and who will lie. They keep their identity secret while men are named and shamed. Its all very skewed.


----------



## Ynot

Red Sonja said:


> Still waiting for an answer @Ynot, it's a simple enough question.
> 
> As for those answering for you with "sending shower selfies" and "sex in the bathroom" ... do you work in brothels?


I am so sorry, I guess I don't spend all my time waiting to respond to TAM posts. I have a life to live.
Anyways to answer your question - if in fact you are actually serious - women can send messages in all sorts of ways in the workplace. Wearing suggestive clothing, touching, verbal queues etc, etc. You aren't really this naïve to imagine that all women just put their heads down and go to work. There are quite a few who try to get by on their looks and feminine wiles. So stop pretending because I really don't know what point you are trying to make.


----------



## katies

Why on earth would someone LIE about being raped. Victims again by coming forward. smfh.


----------



## ConanHub

katies said:


> Why on earth would someone LIE about being raped. Victims again by coming forward. smfh.


You can't comprehend it because you are an honest woman who really was assaulted.

There are women who have cried wolf and it is just as despicable as the crime they are falsely reporting.

I do believe educating everyone about the prevalence of rape and what to do to make sure the rapist doesn't get away with it is very important.

If you were more aware and educated, knowing that no one is immune from a possible assault, you may have been able to gather your thoughts quicker and nailed the bastard.

Education can help prevent attacks as well.

Rapists are pathetic and want easy victims without coming to harm themselves.


----------



## EllisRedding

katies said:


> Why on earth would someone LIE about being raped. Victims again by coming forward. smfh.


People lie for many reasons. There was a story in the news recently about a female who said she was raped by two guys. Turns out it was consensual.



> A former college student in Connecticut who is accused of faking rape allegations against two football players in an attempt to gain sympathy from another man is facing two years in prison under a proposed plea bargain.


Co-ed faces two years for lying about rape | New York Post


----------



## Wolf1974

katies said:


> Yes it was the DA. But thanks for correcting the most important part of my story.


I wasn’t try to correct just trying to understand what you meant. :surprise:


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> People lie for many reasons. There was a story in the news recently about a female who said she was raped by two guys. Turns out it was consensual.
> 
> 
> 
> Co-ed faces two years for lying about rape | New York Post


My experience is that those who lie lie because of the “consequence factor”. Think of it like a married woman’s gno, She gets a little drunk has sex with someone then because of the fallout lies about being raped. It’s not common have only seen it three times personally vs hundreds of legitimate sex assaults. And Important to keep in mind this is one of the most under reported crimes for both women and men.


----------



## katies

Wolf1974 said:


> I wasn’t try to correct just trying to understand what you meant. :surprise:


Ok. The "authorities" decided to pass on my case, and we called and talked to them three times and called a year later to ask them to reconsider as we were meeting the statute of limitations in that state for pressing charges.


----------



## katies

Wolf1974 said:


> And Important to keep in mind this is one of the most under reported crimes for both women and men.


----------



## ConanHub

katies said:


> Ok. The "authorities" decided to pass on my case, and we called and talked to them three times and called a year later to ask them to reconsider as we were meeting the statute of limitations in that state for pressing charges.


I'm not trying to cause pain by asking, but was it someone known or a stranger?

I have seen far more attacks from someone known than strangers.


----------



## katies

ConanHub said:


> I'm not trying to cause pain by asking, but was it someone known or a stranger?
> 
> I have seen far more attacks from someone known than strangers.


It was an acquaintance I had just met.. not even really met, he was hanging around people I knew.
And this happened in another state, so I likely will never have to see him again.


----------



## Red Sonja

Ynot said:


> I am so sorry, I guess I don't spend all my time waiting to respond to TAM posts. I have a life to live.
> Anyways to answer your question - if in fact you are actually serious - women can send messages in all sorts of ways in the workplace. Wearing suggestive clothing, touching, verbal queues etc, etc. You aren't really this naïve to imagine that all women just put their heads down and go to work. There are quite a few who try to get by on their looks and feminine wiles. So stop pretending because I really don't know what point you are trying to make.


I am serious.

Perhaps it's my profession (electrical engineering) and the fact that I work in a (mostly) all male industry however I have never seen anything that I would interpret as sexual invitation "signals" (by women) at work ... not clothing, not touch, not words. I am not saying it does not happen; I am saying I have never personally witnessed it and do not know what men interpret as "signals".

I have had the occasional male "come onto me" at work and I was asking the question because the word "signals" sounded to me like there may be very subtle "signals" that a woman can give that would invite this type of "come on" unintentionally. And so, I was wondering about the male interpretation of "signals".

If you do not want to discuss it just say so (or ignore me) rather than accusing me of being disingenuous.


----------



## NextTimeAround

katies said:


> Why on earth would someone LIE about being raped. Victims again by coming forward. smfh.


It might have been more common when women were expected to be virgins before marriage. There is also the debate on campus as to whether sex is sex is consensual or not. Families who support their sons through this claim that universities do not offer due process.

Here is what some mothers think:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/22/us/campus-sex-assault-mothers.html


----------



## NextTimeAround

EllisRedding said:


> People lie for many reasons. There was a story in the news recently about a female who said she was raped by two guys. Turns out it was consensual.
> 
> 
> 
> Co-ed faces two years for lying about rape | New York Post





> Both men admitted having sex with Yovino, but claimed it was consensual. Witnesses also told police that it appeared the teen went into the bathroom willingly with the men.


I thought one problem with prosecuting date rape cases was that "No means no." That is, that the woman can change her mind at any time.

What if she had only wanted to give these guys blow jobs and they wanted something else?


----------



## EllisRedding

NextTimeAround said:


> I thought one problem with prosecuting date rape cases was that "No means no." That is, that the woman can change her mind at any time.
> 
> What if she had only wanted to give these guys blow jobs and they wanted something else?


Well, in the specific case I mentioned, there is no indication that at any point she changed her mind. If she did and they continued, yes, that would be considered rape.


----------



## Ynot

Red Sonja said:


> I am serious.
> 
> Perhaps it's my profession (electrical engineering) and the fact that I work in a (mostly) all male industry however I have never seen anything that I would interpret as sexual invitation "signals" (by women) at work ... not clothing, not touch, not words. I am not saying it does not happen; I am saying I have never personally witnessed it and do not know what men interpret as "signals".
> 
> I have had the occasional male "come onto me" at work and I was asking the question because the word "signals" sounded to me like there may be very subtle "signals" that a woman can give that would invite this type of "come on" unintentionally. And so, I was wondering about the male interpretation of "signals".
> 
> If you do not want to discuss it just say so (or ignore me) rather than accusing me of being disingenuous.


I guess I just find it rather unbelievable that you can't imagine a woman using sex to sell whatever it is she is selling whether it be an idea, product or service. When I worked a mortgage broker, the lenders would hire young attractive female sales reps. Some of these women would come in all dolled up with low cut blouses, short skirts, and high heels. They would definitely give off signals. 
So signals might be provocative clothing, lingering smiles, ready laughs, suggestive conversations, etc. While it may have all been a show, it was a show they knew full well they were performing in. 
While some of those "signals" ,may have been unintentional, I think most of these women knew exactly what they were doing. They were using their looks to sell. 
Heck, watch Fox News some time. Those women are made up like porn stars to read the news. If you don't think Rupert Murdoch doesn't use sex to sell his views, I don't know what to say.


----------



## EllisRedding

Ynot said:


> I guess I just find it rather unbelievable that you can't imagine a woman using sex to sell whatever it is she is selling whether it be an idea, product or service. When I worked a mortgage broker, the lenders would hire young attractive female sales reps. Some of these women would come in all dolled up with low cut blouses, short skirts, and high heels. They would definitely give off signals.
> So signals might be provocative clothing, lingering smiles, ready laughs, suggestive conversations, etc. While it may have all been a show, it was a show they knew full well they were performing in.
> While some of those "signals" ,may have been unintentional, I think most of these women knew exactly what they were doing. They were using their looks to sell.
> Heck, watch Fox News some time. Those women are made up like porn stars to read the news. If you don't think Rupert Murdoch doesn't use sex to sell his views, I don't know what to say.


This was/is big in the pharma industry where many of the sales reps are very attractive women


----------



## NextTimeAround

EllisRedding said:


> This was/is big in the pharma industry where many of the sales reps are very attractive women


I used to organize events when I lived in London so I would go to event organizers networking activities. One was conducted by asking organizers about verious experiences.

It turned out that one person had organized an event in the Midlands for some healthcare group and a couple had sex under the dinner table before the desert was served.

Eeeek!


----------



## Diana7

katies said:


> Why on earth would someone LIE about being raped. Victims again by coming forward. smfh.


There are all sorts of reasons. For the attention and sympathy. They were rejected by a man so are getting back at him. They got so drunk they cant remember what they did with a guy so assume the man raped them. They cheated on a partner so rather than say they cheated they claim they were raped. They don't like someone so want to hurt them and ruin their life. They are compulsive lairs. 
I am sure there are loads more.


----------



## Red Sonja

Ynot said:


> I guess I just find it rather unbelievable that you can't imagine a woman using sex to sell whatever it is she is selling whether it be an idea, product or service. When I worked a mortgage broker, the lenders would hire young attractive female sales reps. Some of these women would come in all dolled up with low cut blouses, short skirts, and high heels. They would definitely give off signals.
> So signals might be provocative clothing, lingering smiles, ready laughs, suggestive conversations, etc. While it may have all been a show, it was a show they knew full well they were performing in.
> While some of those "signals" ,may have been unintentional, I think most of these women knew exactly what they were doing. They were using their looks to sell.
> Heck, watch Fox News some time. Those women are made up like porn stars to read the news. If you don't think Rupert Murdoch doesn't use sex to sell his views, I don't know what to say.


I did not know that about the mortgage industry, but then again I have never dealt with a female mortgage broker in person.

I know that amongst industries where they are selling to the public some definitely use sex as an enticement. Attend any so called trade show and you will observe it happening or look at advertising campaigns.

I misunderstood, *I thought you were taking about inside the workplace where one gives "signals" between employees.* I didn't know you were talking about selling to the public, both men and women use sex to sell in that arena.

In any case, thank you for answering.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Groped on subways and buses and the like many times. Molested as a young teen. Forcibly rapes as a young woman. Almost every woman I know has had some such thing happen to them.


----------



## Personal

My wife relates that she hasn't experienced any sexual assault or harassment.

That said her father often called her a prostitute from when she was in her teens. Then later declared that her moving out of their home without being married, proved that she was a prostitute. That said she didn't lose her virginity until after her father died, so the claims of her rotten father were hardly accurate.

On the other hand when I was 15, two then 18 year old male friends of mine. Held me down and tried to undress me for sex while saying I was gay like them, even though I was/am not. Before they got very far, I managed to I fight them off. That said I didn't tell anyone about what happened and haven't lost sleep over it since.

Back in the 90s my sister was raped following having her drink spiked while out drinking. She didn't report it though, since through her experience as a legal professional. She didn't want to go through more crap, for what she thought would probably amount to nothing.

Personally I don't care for virtue signalling on social media, and other related PC nonsense.


----------



## wild jade

I have been raped, groped, pinched, flashed, followed by guys masturbating in their cars (yes, more than once) and even walking on the street. I have lost a job because I wouldn't sleep with the manager. Only the rape was reported.

Other people I know say similar.


----------



## introvert

I've been groped too many times to count, nearly raped twice by acquaintances when I was seventeen and eighteen, stalked twice by dudes in cars on my way home from work (very young, living with my folks).

I was molested by a neighbor at the age of six. Different neighbor tried to molest my younger sister, which she reported to my mom, who did nothing. It was the sixties when I was little, and nobody wanted to rock the boat. The guy who molested me later molested his girlfriend's young daughter, and my mom claimed the girl and gf were lying. I told her they were not. 

Honestly, this stuff is so prevalent, it's disgusting. I'm glad people are finally saying something.


----------



## introvert

Herschel said:


> Me too should be about actual forced sexual encounters. Made to physically do something against your will (even if it’s emotional control). That is where I think there is a blurry line with all the me toos out there.



You don't think that a stranger grabbing a woman's crotch, breasts or butt is a forced encounter? I felt completely violated when strangers tried to grab my crotch area! 

The times I was groped, I was grabbed forcibly in the pus*y...fortunately, I think I broke one guys' thumb when I bent it back as far as I could go during the event.


----------



## introvert

Herschel said:


> Nobody should touch someone else in that way (like a boob or butt grab at a bar). Press charges if you want, call him/her out and whatever, but emotionally that should get shrugged off after the night.
> 
> Me too should be about actual forced sexual encounters. Made to physically do something against your will (even if it’s emotional control). That is where I think there is a blurry line with all the me toos out there.


Okay, see how this sits with you. What if you were approached by a man who stuck his thumb or fingers as hard as he could in your ass area? Like, he really tried to get up in there? Would you see that as a minor infraction? I mean, it wasn't a forced encounter, right?


----------



## Buddy400

Did EllisRedding actually get banned?

I'm guessing that it was something on this thread?

There is no way that I'm commenting on this thread (or having any conversation what-so-ever regarding this topic with anyone that is not a family member and, even then, not within earshot of anyone else).

And, actually, I'm not 100% sure I could trust my kids not to report me to the authorities if I happened to say something that was considered inappropriate.


----------



## Masodipstick

Is it prevalent? Yes. I think most if not all women have been harassed. Maybe the question should be which female hasn't been?


I have had a college prof grope my breasts, been propositioned by bosses and refused only to be retaliated against in the workplace. Once my car broke down at night when I was 22 years old and offered a ride home by an on duty cop who instead of driving me a couple blocks to my home drove me to a dark, deserted school yard, parked the car and slid across the front seat and asked me if I wanted to neck. I was scared to death. I didn't report it because I thought I wouldn't be believed and I was afraid that me or my family might be harassed by the local police force as it would be my word against his.


----------



## introvert

katies said:


> This thread is so triggery for me. And I cannot talk about it to my best friend, my husband, because it's like my rape raped him too.


katies, I'm so sorry. What a horrible thing to have to endure and process. (((katies)))


----------



## introvert

As an FYI, I'm a lesbian. I have felt gay for my entire life. And while I present as feminine, which I am, I don't send "signals of attraction" out to men.


----------



## Herschel

introvert said:


> Okay, see how this sits with you. What if you were approached by a man who stuck his thumb or fingers as hard as he could in your ass area? Like, he really tried to get up in there? Would you see that as a minor infraction? I mean, it wasn't a forced encounter, right?


Really? That's your analogy? I mean, if you want to go tit for tat with a boob grab and a junk grab, I can see that (though, the junk grab is more extreme). Butt for butt as well. If I tried to forcibly shove my thumb up a woman's ass, then yes, that is considerably worse.


----------



## Herschel

introvert said:


> You don't think that a stranger grabbing a woman's crotch, breasts or butt is a forced encounter? I felt completely violated when strangers tried to grab my crotch area!
> 
> The times I was groped, I was grabbed forcibly in the pus*y...fortunately, I think I broke one guys' thumb when I bent it back as far as I could go during the event.


I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Grabbing anyone's anything is a criminal offense. If you are at a bar and someone grabs any part of you, you have every right to hit them, call the cops, whatever. Never acceptable. My point is the emotional impact. Getting you butt grabbed in a bar is not on par with getting raped. I understand the sexual harassment aspect and the invasion it feels. But you should be able to brush off a butt/boob grab after the evening is over. Forced sex is something that can leave an emotional impact for a lifetime.


----------



## uhtred

I'm not quite sure of your point. The woman (or anyone) should be able to say no at any time. 

Maybe you are saying that because she consented to some actions, it is difficult to know if she consented to others. If so, I agree with you. Someone can withdraw consent at any time, but without witnesses to that withdraw of consent (unlikely) it difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that consent was withdrawn. 







NextTimeAround said:


> I thought one problem with prosecuting date rape cases was that "No means no." That is, that the woman can change her mind at any time.
> 
> What if she had only wanted to give these guys blow jobs and they wanted something else?


----------



## uhtred

Why the paranoia? 

You could get banned for something offensive, but unless you threatened or admitted to a prior crime, I don't see why anyone would contact the authorities 




Buddy400 said:


> Did EllisRedding actually get banned?
> 
> I'm guessing that it was something on this thread?
> 
> There is no way that I'm commenting on this thread (or having any conversation what-so-ever regarding this topic with anyone that is not a family member and, even then, not within earshot of anyone else).
> 
> And, actually, I'm not 100% sure I could trust my kids not to report me to the authorities if I happened to say something that was considered inappropriate.


----------



## Buddy400

uhtred said:


> Why the paranoia?
> 
> You could get banned for something offensive, but unless you threatened or admitted to a prior crime, I don't see why anyone would contact the authorities


I was obviously engaging in hyperbole for effect.

*But*, it's not as if no one has ever lost their job for saying something on social media that was deemed inappropriate by the "thought police".


----------



## NobodySpecial

Herschel said:


> I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Grabbing anyone's anything is a criminal offense. If you are at a bar and someone grabs any part of you, you have every right to hit them, call the cops, whatever. Never acceptable. My point is the emotional impact. Getting you butt grabbed in a bar is not on par with getting raped. I understand the sexual harassment aspect and the invasion it feels. But *you should be able to brush off a butt/boob grab* after the evening is over. Forced sex is something that can leave an emotional impact for a lifetime.


Of course, we all learn to. That's not the point. We "should" not have to. We should not have people groping at our privates at all. The culture of this is just bad. I think of the learning process that goes into my beautiful 14 year old girl when she discovers she "should" be able to brush off this disgusting behavior that demonstrates men see her as a piece of meat makes me cringe. But, she will have to.


----------



## Herschel

NobodySpecial said:


> Of course, we all learn to. That's not the point. We "should" not have to. We should not have people groping at our privates at all. The culture of this is just bad. I think of the learning process that goes into my beautiful 14 year old girl when she discovers she "should" be able to brush off this disgusting behavior that demonstrates men see her as a piece of meat makes me cringe. But, she will have to.


Again. Point missed. Of course you shouldn’t have to. Who said anything about that. This IS my point. My point is that MeToo should be relegated to those who have had sexual abuse done to them. I’ve had my junk grabbed, my ass grabbed and my body touched. I wouldn’t dare say me too. I do t even think that is nearly as bad as it happening to a woman. And all of it is bad. There is a difference though.


----------



## Slartibartfast

..


----------



## NobodySpecial

Herschel said:


> Again. Point missed. Of course you shouldn’t have to. Who said anything about that. This IS my point. My point is that MeToo should be relegated to those who have had sexual abuse done to them. I’ve had my junk grabbed, my ass grabbed and my body touched. I wouldn’t dare say me too. I do t even think that is nearly as bad as it happening to a woman. And all of it is bad. There is a difference though.


Apparently, men got totally railed online for posting me too. Someone very close to me was molested as a child. He did not dare post metoo. That is wrong. BUT no offense, but what YOU think of the experience of women is completely irrelevant however. The thread is about prevalence. It is systemic, for many of us, particularly when we were young, daily. So... yah, I am not considering your version of the merit of posting "metoo" as having much merit.


----------



## Herschel

NobodySpecial said:


> Apparently, men got totally railed online for posting me too. Someone very close to me was molested as a child. He did not dare post metoo. That is wrong. BUT no offense, but what YOU think of the experience of women is completely irrelevant however. The thread is about prevalence. It is systemic, for many of us, particularly when we were young, daily. So... yah, I am not considering your version of the merit of posting "metoo" as having much merit.


Of course you don’t. How could you, I have balls. While I certainly understand that ideology, it’s akin to a sports player not thinking that an analysts opinikn matters because he never played the game. I am a cognitive person and I have deleveoped quite an ability to analyze situations and on an individual basis.

Of course, this was my gf’s view of it, and she doesn’t have balls (at least, not that I have seen). And b) I feel it diminishes the horrific crimes by equating them all. But I guess that opinion doesn’t matter either.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Herschel said:


> Of course you don’t. How could you, I have balls. While I certainly understand that ideology, it’s akin to a sports player not thinking that an analysts opinikn matters because he never played the game. I am a cognitive person and I have deleveoped quite an ability to analyze situations and on an individual basis.
> 
> Of course, this was my gf’s view of it, and she doesn’t have balls (at least, not that I have seen). And b) I feel it diminishes the horrific crimes by equating them all. But I guess that opinion doesn’t matter either.


I don't think anyone anywhere intended to equate them. Just highlight... the topic of this thread... the prevalence of the objectification of women and the misuse of their private parts in the public sphere.


----------



## CharlieParker

Watching the news my wife said Al Franken ogled her way way too hard on a NYC bus. He kept his hands to himself, but she said it was creepy and wouldn’t put “impropriety” past him. 

FTR, she said she was frequently groped on the A. Screaming at the top of her lungs “get your f’ing hands off my ass” worked well on a crowded subway car.


----------



## uhtred

I think some people are unclear on the difference between being attractive and sending signals. 

There are lesbian women that I find attractive - but that doesn't mean that they are sending me signals any more than I am sending signals to gay men who might find me attractive. 




Slartibartfast said:


> See, I think there's something in here that fits into what we've been talking about. Are signals only signals when the sender consciously encodes them? No, you don't go around trying to send out overt sexual attraction signals. But - let me see if I can get this right...
> 
> I know any number of lesbians. And some of them are, to me a mostly hetero male, very attractive. And it's made up of all the things that make any woman sexually attractive. Appearance is part. So is their competence, approach to life, intelligence, and all sorts of things. But I don't read that as an invitation. I don't read them that way with any woman. I CONSCIOUSLY, intentionally don't read them as invitation, because, at least for one thing, I don't flatter myself. And I know that there's an excellent chance that whole array of items more likely than not simply don't constitute an actual invitation. Nevertheless, they are attractive.
> 
> Yes, sometimes things can be hard to read. But that's why we have language, to clarify the things in life that need clarifying. And there is language that can solicit a clarification without the language being threatening (okay - somebody somewhere won't like it - phhhht!). If the language is aggressive, it's an act of aggression. Language is one of our primary tools and it is very much one of our potential weapons. And there's no physical solicitation that can be justified at all. Being attractive simply does not equate to inviting contact - period. I don't think that's a hard concept. And aggressive language, either aggressive in its verbiage or in its persistence, amounts to contact.
> 
> And it should go without saying that invitations can be withdrawn. Not a hard concept, either.
> 
> I really wonder about people who have to analyze this to death. Seems lazy.


----------



## introvert

Herschel said:


> Really? That's your analogy? I mean, if you want to go tit for tat with a boob grab and a junk grab, I can see that (though, the junk grab is more extreme). Butt for butt as well. If I tried to forcibly shove my thumb up a woman's ass, then yes, that is considerably worse.


For a male to receive penetration, it would have to be up the ass. That's pretty personal. Just like getting someone's fingers up your *****.


----------



## introvert

Herschel said:


> Again. Point missed. Of course you shouldn’t have to. Who said anything about that. This IS my point. My point is that MeToo should be relegated to those who have had sexual abuse done to them. I’ve had my junk grabbed, my ass grabbed and my body touched. I wouldn’t dare say me too. I do t even think that is nearly as bad as it happening to a woman. And all of it is bad. There is a difference though.


I personally haven't posted on me too, although I have every right to. Two near rapes, and I mean very close to the act. The adrenaline was pumping, and only by the grace of god could I kick those bastards off of me. I was lucky. So many were not.

I am five foot eight, and I weigh 120 pounds soaking wet. Nearly any male could over power me. 

Honestly, how would you feel if a very much more powerful male tried to rape you? Or grab your junk? Wouldn't you feel violated, or terrified, even?


----------



## introvert

And I have to say, this thread has become very "triggery" for me, as well. I remembered tonight baby-sitting my dad's work buddy's two kids while he and his wife went out. I was fifteen, scrawny...30 triple A bra size. Not even menstruating yet. My dad's friend walked me home after he and his wife got home, and he tried to force me to kiss him. I was a raw kid. Totally innocent.

I think I have to leave this thread for a while.


----------



## ConanHub

introvert said:


> I personally haven't posted on me too, although I have every right to. Two near rapes, and I mean very close to the act. The adrenaline was pumping, and only by the grace of god could I kick those bastards off of me. I was lucky. So many were not.
> 
> I am five foot eight, and I weigh 120 pounds soaking wet. Nearly any male could over power me.
> 
> Honestly, how would you feel if a very much more powerful male tried to rape you? Or grab your junk? Wouldn't you feel violated, or terrified, even?


This. Men hardly feel in danger of being overpowered by any woman behaving inappropriately with them. It is annoying mostly.

The vast majority of women are in real danger of being overpowered by any man being forceful with them.


----------



## introvert

ConanHub said:


> This. Men hardly feel in danger of being overpowered by any woman behaving inappropriately with them. It is annoying mostly.
> 
> The vast majority in women are in real danger of being overpowered by any man being forceful with them.


God, thank you for your sane observation!

That's not to say that women don't become abusive, they often can and do, and I think they should be reported the same as any offender. 

Honestly, I could not fight off anybody much larger than myself. It's a huge fear and issue.


----------



## introvert

It's really sad that the more that I think, the more I am remembering. This has been ongoing from really early days.

So yes, OP...it's really that prevalent.


----------



## Herschel

introvert said:


> For a male to receive penetration, it would have to be up the ass. That's pretty personal. Just like getting someone's fingers up your *****.


I don't get your point. Why does it have to be penetration?


----------



## Herschel

introvert said:


> I personally haven't posted on me too, although I have every right to. Two near rapes, and I mean very close to the act. The adrenaline was pumping, and only by the grace of god could I kick those bastards off of me. I was lucky. So many were not.
> 
> I am five foot eight, and I weigh 120 pounds soaking wet. Nearly any male could over power me.
> 
> Honestly, how would you feel if a very much more powerful male tried to rape you? Or grab your junk? Wouldn't you feel violated, or terrified, even?



Obviously you have the right. I am not talking about that situation. I am not saying anyone shouldn't do anything honestly. It was a discussion between me and my gf about how she didn't MeToo because she felt her story diminished the terrible stories women have. 

There is a difference between attempted rape and having your junk grabbed, right? I mean, I know this is all a delicate line we are walking, but I'm not crazy there, am I? Rape is about power. Harassment is about opportunity (until it turns into something else, like it it is repeated). Anyway, I'll bail here, because I have empathy to anyone who feels like they were harassed or worse.


----------



## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> Did EllisRedding actually get banned?
> 
> I'm guessing that it was something on this thread?
> 
> There is no way that I'm commenting on this thread (or having any conversation what-so-ever regarding this topic with anyone that is not a family member and, even then, not within earshot of anyone else).
> 
> And, actually, I'm not 100% sure I could trust my kids not to report me to the authorities if I happened to say something that was considered inappropriate.


I just checked. He did not get banned for anything he said on this thread.


----------



## EleGirl

Herschel said:


> I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. Grabbing anyone's anything is a criminal offense. If you are at a bar and someone grabs any part of you, you have every right to hit them, call the cops, whatever. Never acceptable. My point is the emotional impact. Getting you butt grabbed in a bar is not on par with getting raped. I understand the sexual harassment aspect and the invasion it feels. But you should be able to brush off a butt/boob grab after the evening is over. Forced sex is something that can leave an emotional impact for a lifetime.


When the grabbing happens very often... like almost every time you are on a train, bus or in a crowd it is not easy to brush off. What it does is makes you afraid to use public transportation, go anywhere that there are crowds, etc. It can be scary because you don't know which time someone is going to take it further.

American Indians did this thing called "counting Coup". They would sneak into an enemy camp and touch their enemy/advisory. They even carried special sticks that are called "coup sticks". The purpose of this was to let your enemy/advisory know that they need to be afraid of you because they can get to you anytime they want... and next time they might not just use a coup stick.

That is a pretty good analogy for the mindset of men (and women) who grab/fondle/etc. people they don't know.. "I can do anything I want to you."

So yea, it's scary.

Look at Franken, touch that woman's boobs in the picture. Someone took that picture. What was his message? "I can do whatever I want." And I guess he could since the people in that room just let it go. 

It's not rape. But it's not easy to brush off either. Harassment is not just about opportunity, it's also about power.


----------



## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> I think some people are unclear on the difference between being attractive and sending signals.
> 
> There are lesbian women that I find attractive - but that doesn't mean that they are sending me signals any more than I am sending signals to gay men who might find me attractive.


There are some people who see signals where there are none... maybe because they want to? One person's getting dressed in the morning is another person's provocative. One person's friendliness and kindness is another person's "signals". And for some, being female is enough.


----------



## uhtred

It is possible to misread "initial" signals. By "initial" I mean signs of interest long before there is anything directly sexual. That though should in no way lead to grabbing / fondling / crude comments. At most that should lead to an invitation to get a cup of coffee / drink / whatever - which can be politely declined. 






NobodySpecial said:


> There are some people who see signals where there are none... maybe because they want to? One person's getting dressed in the morning is another person's provocative. One person's friendliness and kindness is another person's "signals". And for some, being female is enough.


----------



## Blondilocks

Uber is finding out just how prevalent this is.


----------



## Blondilocks

Buddy400;18682314[B said:


> ]Did EllisRedding actually get banned?
> [/B]
> I'm guessing that it was something on this thread?
> 
> There is no way that I'm commenting on this thread (or having any conversation what-so-ever regarding this topic with anyone that is not a family member and, even then, not within earshot of anyone else).
> 
> And, actually, I'm not 100% sure I could trust my kids not to report me to the authorities if I happened to say something that was considered inappropriate.


Un****ing believable. Again.


----------



## AVR1962

One time I was at a party, came out of the bathroom and there was a man I knew waiting for me to come out. This was not someone I was dating. He grabbed me without a word and started kissing me. It happened very quickly. I resisted, I did not like it and never wanted to be in the same room as this man again. I never gave this man the impression I was fond of him. I think he saw his act as an opportunity and I think there are many men like this.


----------



## veganmermaid

The thing is, there’s NOT a clear cut line. And we really can’t say “oh, they should brush off groping.” Everyone’s experience is different. Being groped, fondled, etc when you have not consented to it is a huge invasion of privacy, intimacy, boundaries. It’s dehumanizing. I don’t expect anyone who hasn’t experienced it to understand. You have to put yourself in a vulnerable state: being smaller, slower, less strong than a person who has demonstrated that they have no respect for your boundaries, wishes, human will. Possibly being unable to even identify who groped you. Feeling invaded, degraded, objectified. Often there’s an element of ridicule. It’s not okay. It should not happen. Shifting the focus from “No one should experience that” to “Victims should brush it off” is shifting the responsibility: offenders shouldn’t offend. Period.

I’ve experienced both. I’m a victim of rape and of sexual assault. The assault occurred when I was in 5th grade, and I blocked it out completely until recently, but through therapy it’s become crystal clear that that experience stayed with me in many ways. 

I didn’t have anyone to talk to about what happened. Therefore, I took on all the shame and fear and just buried myself in it. I was young, I didn’t know what it meant, I couldn’t explain the complex emotional and physical reactions I experienced. So I shut down.

The rape, for me, was more acutely terrifying but much less confusing; and because I was older and had the language and emotional wherewithal to at least try to process it, I spoke to trusted friends about it, which helped alleviate the shame. So for me, in the end, I think the assault was more harmful than the rape. That’s why victims of assault participated in “me too.” Had I participated it would have been with the focus on the assault, not the rape. 

And, by the way, it’s not my fault for not being able to “brush it off.” It’s my assailant’s fault for assaulting me. P E R I O D.

Let’s focus on the perpetrators, not on ranking the victims or trying to decide who “earned” a “right” to participate in this recent movement towards throwing off the shame and secrecy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VladDracul

Herschel said:


> The other issue is the double standard. When a woman does almost any of this stuff to a guy, we are all like, lucky bastard. It’s really crazy in concept. A 15 year old girl starts having sexual relations with her science teacher and we are outraged. A 15 year old boy dies the same with his art teacher and we are all like, wish that was me when I was 15!


Right or wrong notwithstanding, I look at this as a different mindset that will be around a century from now. Usually when something like this happens, the female student is complaining, the male is bragging. Folks don't like hearing it, but there are different thought processes about sex between men and women. I mean what red blooded male employee would want to do the MILF vice president of operations.


----------



## Diana7

Maybe it depends on us and how we react to things and how sensitive we are. Some of the reports that have come out recently such as a man or women putting their hand on someone else's knee, were just bizarre and to my mind just not worth reporting or mentioning. 
I have had a few occasions such as when a man at work tried to kiss me on the lips, and boyfriends I hardly knew touching me when I didn't want them too, but to be honest they didn't bother me much then, and they never have bothered me since. I was quite capable of stopping them and they did me no emotional damage at all. People were so much tougher when I was growing up in the 60's. They just got on with life and didn't make a meal out of minor occurances. Now every little thing has to be a major drama. 

I know several people who were seriously sexually abused as children, and adults, and these other minor things such as happened to me, cant be compared to the serious things like that in anyway. 

BTW many women do things like this as well, but men rarely tell or report such things. That's the difference. I know several women whose husband's were ruthlessly persued by a woman they worked with, in some cases the man gave in and in others they didn't, but women are just as capable of such bad behaviour as men. Women openly admit that they flirt and act badly to get something that want.


----------



## AVR1962

Diana7 said:


> Maybe it depends on us and how we react to things and how sensitive we are. Some of the reports that have come out recently such as a man or women putting their hand on someone else's knee, were just bizarre and to my mind just not worth reporting or mentioning.
> I have had a few occasions such as when a man at work tried to kiss me on the lips, and boyfriends I hardly knew touching me when I didn't want them too, but to be honest they didn't bother me much then, and they never have bothered me since. I was quite capable of stopping them and they did me no emotional damage at all. People were so much tougher when I was growing up in the 60's. They just got on with life and didn't make a meal out of minor occurances. Now every little thing has to be a major drama.
> 
> I know several people who were seriously sexually abused as children, and adults, and these other minor things such as happened to me, cant be compared to the serious things like that in anyway.
> 
> BTW many women do things like this as well, but men rarely tell or report such things. That's the difference. I know several women whose husband's were ruthlessly persued by a woman they worked with, in some cases the man gave in and in others they didn't, but women are just as capable of such bad behaviour as men. Women openly admit that they flirt and act badly to get something that want.


Diana7, I agree in the sense that in our day we ladies did deal with what happened and we pressed on. Was there anyone to hear us out? Was there any platform to announce our hurts and if there had been, who would have listened and even cared? An older neighborhood boy performed an oral sex act on me when I was only 5....it certainly was nothing I was expecting or wanted and I did not put myself in a situation where I was asking for this. I went home, told my mom and she told me not to say things like that. I was silenced, there was no one to protect me and from that point on I dealt with harassment myself. I fought off two rapes and I have had all kinds of lude comments and gestures shouted at me over the years. I have had men tell me their interests in me sexually when I had no desire for them and had not lead them to believe I did. What I can say, is I have become very good at letting men know that I am not interested and I have learned to keep myself safe. 

I think these women who have come forward have come forward to STOP harassment and really I hope that is the message that gets across. Harassment does need to be stopped. Men really do need to look at their actions. Some men could care less what their actions do to impact a woman and these are many times the charming narcissistics who are manipulating to get what they want and turn into a situation where they are innocent and the woman is at fault. 

Many years ago when I was a teenager some boys called me in the middle of the night and were harassing me on the telephone. My dad picked up the other end of our land line and listened to what these boys said. I hung up the phone. My dad then asked me what i was doing to provoke this behavior from these boys. This is common. It is believed that women have done something to entice these men/boys. Not the case in many situations. 

Should we ladies have to live with harassment?

Sad thing that happens in these situations is there becomes a question of who is telling the truth, it's his word against hers. All too often the abuser gets off easy and the victim is victimized again. It happens over and over again, we see it, we feel it, we know the price we will pay if we open our mouths so we deal with it. Harassment does need to be stopped!


----------



## Blondilocks

It doesn't matter if it is a man or a woman - people need to learn to keep their hands to themselves until they have permission to touch.

Debating whether this offense or that offense is as bad as this one or that one only serves to perpetuate the behavior. Dismissing certain acts as not as harmful as others perpetuates the behavior. It is this mixed message BS that leads the behaviors to escalate.

The message is: Hands Off, People!


----------



## Diana7

AVR1962 said:


> Diana7, I agree in the sense that in our day we ladies did deal with what happened and we pressed on. Was there anyone to hear us out? Was there any platform to announce our hurts and if there had been, who would have listened and even cared? An older neighborhood boy performed an oral sex act on me when I was only 5....it certainly was nothing I was expecting or wanted and I did not put myself in a situation where I was asking for this. I went home, told my mom and she told me not to say things like that. I was silenced, there was no one to protect me and from that point on I dealt with harassment myself. I fought off two rapes and I have had all kinds of lude comments and gestures shouted at me over the years. I have had men tell me their interests in me sexually when I had no desire for them and had not lead them to believe I did. What I can say, is I have become very good at letting men know that I am not interested and I have learned to keep myself safe.
> 
> I think these women who have come forward have come forward to STOP harassment and really I hope that is the message that gets across. Harassment does need to be stopped. Men really do need to look at their actions. Some men could care less what their actions do to impact a woman and these are many times the charming narcissistics who are manipulating to get what they want and turn into a situation where they are innocent and the woman is at fault.
> 
> Many years ago when I was a teenager some boys called me in the middle of the night and were harassing me on the telephone. My dad picked up the other end of our land line and listened to what these boys said. I hung up the phone. My dad then asked me what i was doing to provoke this behavior from these boys. This is common. It is believed that women have done something to entice these men/boys. Not the case in many situations.
> 
> Should we ladies have to live with harassment?
> 
> Sad thing that happens in these situations is there becomes a question of who is telling the truth, it's his word against hers. All too often the abuser gets off easy and the victim is victimized again. It happens over and over again, we see it, we feel it, we know the price we will pay if we open our mouths so we deal with it. Harassment does need to be stopped!




I didn't mean that we just pressed on in that way, but that we just didn't let things bother us us like they do today. Not sure about you, but I have been through some awful things in life, and when I hear people getting so worked up about very minor things such as a hand on their knee, I think good grief, what is wrong with you that such an inconsequential thing is causing you to get so stressed. If that is all they have to worry about then they have it easy.


----------



## Diana7

Diana7 said:


> I didn't mean that we just pressed on in that way, but that we just didn't let things bother us us like they do today. Not sure about you, but I have been through some awful things in life, and when I hear people getting so worked up about very minor things such as a hand on their knee, I think good grief, what is wrong with you that such an inconsequential thing is causing you to get so stressed. If that is all they have to worry about then they have it easy.


----------



## Diana7

Blondilocks said:


> It doesn't matter if it is a man or a woman - people need to learn to keep their hands to themselves until they have permission to touch.
> 
> Debating whether this offense or that offense is as bad as this one or that one only serves to perpetuate the behavior. Dismissing certain acts as not as harmful as others perpetuates the behavior. It is this mixed message BS that leads the behaviors to escalate.
> 
> The message is: Hands Off, People!


and people need to learn not to be such wussies


----------



## ConanHub

Diana7 said:


> and people need to learn not to be such wussies


I agree. When men force sexual touches on unwilling women they should at least respond by blowing there worthless guts through their pathetic spines with hollow points.

Settles things nicely.


----------



## Diana7

ConanHub said:


> I agree. When men force sexual touches on unwilling women they should at least respond by blowing there worthless guts through their pathetic spines with hollow points.
> 
> Settles things nicely.


There are many ways of dealing with these minor things yes. So he/she puts their hand on your knew, you take it off and walk away. Or say loudly,' take you hand off my knee'.


----------



## ConanHub

Diana7 said:


> There are many ways of dealing with these minor things yes. So he/she puts their hand on your knew, you take it off and walk away. Or say loudly,' take you hand off my knee'.


I encourage women to injure the the morons at least.

To each their own.

Idiots with broken fingers have second thoughts next time.


----------



## introvert

ConanHub said:


> I encourage women to injure the the morons at least.
> 
> To each their own.
> 
> Idiots with broken fingers have second thoughts next time.


I really hope I broke a few thumbs, at the very least.


----------



## introvert

Herschel said:


> I don't get your point. Why does it have to be penetration?


A lot of the groping that females experience is penetrative, believe it or not. So, extremely personal. And completely unwelcome.


----------



## introvert

​


Diana7 said:


> There are many ways of dealing with these minor things yes. So he/she puts their hand on your knew, you take it off and walk away. Or say loudly,' take you hand off my knee'.


I wish I'd led your sheltered life. I know that my butch girlfriend who grew up in a rural town didn't deal with anything of which I have been describing on this thread. Perhaps your history is similar to hers, so lucky for you.


----------



## ConanHub

introvert said:


> ​
> I wish I'd led your sheltered life. I know that my butch girlfriend who grew up in a rural town didn't deal with anything of which I have been describing on this thread. Perhaps your history is similar to hers, so lucky for you.


Her point about embarrassing someone touching a knee is valid but, having experienced the wonders of sexual assault as a child and witnessing it as well, I'm a bit harder on men who perpetrate forceful and unwanted touches of any kind on someone else.


----------



## Diana7

ConanHub said:


> I encourage women to injure the the morons at least.
> 
> To each their own.
> 
> Idiots with broken fingers have second thoughts next time.


Well, I am not a violent person and I don't want to end up arrested. :surprise: Sometimes embarrassing someone can be more effective. :laugh:


----------



## ConanHub

Diana7 said:


> Well, I am not a violent person and I don't want to end up arrested. :surprise: Sometimes embarrassing someone can be more effective. :laugh:


I actually agree with embarrassing someone for touching your knee.

I am a violent person and you won't go to jail for defending yourself from unwanted forceful touches.

I actually had a guy try to grab my rear in a church one time.

A moment later, he was yelling in pain with his wrist being bent by my hand.

He was embarrassed and injured. I was touched against my will as a child as were both my sisters and mother while I witnessed it on more than one occasion.

There is a reason for my violent attitude and it is a good reason.


----------



## notmyrealname4

.


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## notmyrealname4

.


----------



## Blondilocks

Diana7 said:


> I didn't mean that we just pressed on in that way, but that we just didn't let things bother us us like they do today. Not sure about you, but I have been through some awful things in life, and when I hear people getting so worked up about very minor things such as a hand on their knee, I think good grief, what is wrong with you that such an inconsequential thing is causing you to get so stressed. If that is all they have to worry about then they have it easy.


And, now you are judging that the things that happened in your life are so much worse than what other people have suffered. The fact is you have no idea what has happened to others (if anything). You can NOT compare pain. Your pain doesn't trump theirs.

A person can have boundaries without ever having experienced a negative. It's being pro-active about your life rather than reactive.


----------



## Diana7

Blondilocks said:


> And, now you are judging that the things that happened in your life are so much worse than what other people have suffered. The fact is you have no idea what has happened to others (if anything). You can NOT compare pain. Your pain doesn't trump theirs.
> 
> A person can have boundaries without ever having experienced a negative. It's being pro-active about your life rather than reactive.


My point was that when you have faced trauma and deep pain, some of the things people complain about seem ridiculous.


----------



## ConanHub

@notmyrealname4

I know those dead shark eyes.

I have seen them up close and far more than once.

Evil doesn't care what it devours, just that it eats. Like a shark. They don't care.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Diana7 said:


> My point was that when you have faced trauma and deep pain, some of the things people complain about seem ridiculous.


Not to me. To me, the whole conversation centers around the attitude that women's bodies exist to be an accessory to men's desires, whether it is a knee or a rape. Having endured everything from molestation, having someone try to insert their finger inside me on a lemming packed subway, followed upon exiting a subway train, to forcible rape, I would not invalidate someone else' experience by self righteously claiming mine was someone "worse".


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## katies

IT's not trivial to complain about someone touching you in a sexual way without your consent.


----------



## Lila

Just for some levity on an otherwise very serious topic.....was catching up with my SNL weekend updates and found this one which is perfect for this thread.


----------



## sokillme

notmyrealname4 said:


> Wow, yeah the whole Al Franken thing has messed with my mind a bit. I mean, I thought he was a straight up good guy. It's perfectly fine that he thought your wife was attractive; but to creep her out by the way he was looking, not okay.
> 
> So sad, perhaps it's best to never look up to anyone too much I guess.


It's easy to espouse a cause, it's a lot harder to fight against your baser instincts (actually it's not it's called being a standard human being). Anyway notice how all these guys chose all the popular causes of the day for their brand of politics. Same goes with Judge Moore for instance. It's cover. They are predators they know how to use camouflage.


----------



## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> I didn't mean that we just pressed on in that way, but that we just didn't let things bother us us like they do today. Not sure about you, but I have been through some awful things in life, and when I hear people getting so worked up about very minor things such as a hand on their knee, I think good grief, what is wrong with you that such an inconsequential thing is causing you to get so stressed. If that is all they have to worry about then they have it easy.


You are doing the world a great disservice when you keep going on about "it's just a hand on the knee". No these are real people that have been in really frightening situations. Then there are the ones that have their whole career ruined by sexual harassment and worse in the work environment. What about the girls on public transport that are molested, what about girls going to concerts and being assulted? How about the fact that rape in marriage is still legal in some parts?

So if it was your daughter that was sexually assulted would you just brush her aside and say don't be such a wuss? 

By belittling this issue you are just fueling the shame and horror these people are suffering. Shame on you.

This is about respect for others and boundaries, no one has the right to cross into anothers personal boundary without invitation. It is just basic human respect, sadly many cannot comprehend that.


----------



## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> You are doing the world a great disservice when you keep going on about "it's just a hand on the knee". No these are real people that have been in really frightening situations. Then there are the ones that have their whole career ruined by sexual harassment and worse in the work environment. What about the girls on public transport that are molested, what about girls going to concerts and being assulted? How about the fact that rape in marriage is still legal in some parts?
> 
> So if it was your daughter that was sexually assulted would you just brush her aside and say don't be such a wuss?
> 
> By belittling this issue you are just fueling the shame and horror these people are suffering. Shame on you.
> 
> This is about respect for others and boundaries, no one has the right to cross into anothers personal boundary without invitation. It is just basic human respect, sadly many cannot comprehend that.


A hand on the knee is not a sexual assault. My daughters are more than capable of handling such a situation, and have, as have I. They are sensible girls who have been though hard things and keep things in perspective. 
So someone who has a hand on their knee feels horror??? Shame????Really??? Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. I am not talking about serious sexual assault here, but a minor thing such as I have described. How will these people cope with life if they are so traumatised by such an insignificant minor action. They will go to pieces if anything truly bad happens to them. 
No wonder they call this the snowflake generation. :frown2:


----------



## NobodySpecial

Diana7 said:


> A hand on the knee is not a sexual assault. My daughters are more than capable of handling such a situation, and have, as have I. They are sensible girls who have been though hard things and keep things in perspective.
> So someone who has a hand on their knee feels horror??? Shame????Really??? Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. I am not talking about serious sexual assault here, but a minor thing such as I have described. How will these people cope with life if they are so traumatised by such an insignificant minor action. They will go to pieces if anything truly bad happens to them.
> No wonder they call this the snowflake generation. :frown2:


I agree that allowing oneself to be horrified or traumatized by something like a hand on the knee is not good for the victim of such an action, especially when done among adults. Young girls are a different matter when perpetrated by adults who are supposed to be authorities in their lives. But that is a topic for another time. The thing I like about the way the public conversation is shifting is that the onus is no longer on women to pro-act or react appropriately. Everything from degrading mansplaining to groping to harassment is being laid on the feet of the men who do it as it should be.

At the ripe old age of 13, my daughter was verbally assaulted by an older schoolmate calling her b!tch, *****, c***. She handled it well. But I wonder what that boy was thinking? What goes into his upbringing that makes him think that this is how you interact with a pretty girl? (I know his father. I coached soccer with him. I can make a good guess.) More to the point, WHY is this attitude so prevalent? Why is it interested or fulfilling to denigrate someone for no other reason than they are female? 

I would love a society that allowed this responsibility to shift, even demanded it. Not until attitudes shift will behavior shift. When we stand up and say as one NOT OK. When affluent rapists are no longer given slaps on the wrist and Dad's don't write letters about 15 minutes of fun, we may see a shift. I am hopeful but not optimistic.


----------



## sandcastle

Diana7 said:


> A hand on the knee is not a sexual assault. My daughters are more than capable of handling such a situation, and have, as have I. They are sensible girls who have been though hard things and keep things in perspective.
> So someone who has a hand on their knee feels horror??? Shame????Really??? Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. I am not talking about serious sexual assault here, but a minor thing such as I have described. How will these people cope with life if they are so traumatised by such an insignificant minor action. They will go to pieces if anything truly bad happens to them.
> No wonder they call this the snowflake generation. :frown2:


A hand on the knee turns into a hand on the boob turns into a hand in the crotch turns into...

Diana- while you may be a tough broad who takes no **** and kills the prisoner and raised YOUR daughters that way - millions upon millions of humans do not have your intestinal fortitude/ life experience/ smarts/ support or whatever else you are lucky enough to have in your corner.

So- the advice that a "hand on the knee" is just perpetuating what is no big deal. 
Which is what the problem is.

Oh! I wanted to pull down my pants and show you my erect penis! What is the big deal? All us men that control your paycheck do it. No big deal.


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## sandcastle

Charlie Rose?


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## Blondilocks

Maybe over-reaction is exactly what is necessary. If more people started acting as though the offender just murdered Bambi's mom, then people would get the message.


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## uhtred

I think the attention on sexual offenses is good, but I with it was more directed at present day and very recent offenses - o which there are a lot.


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## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> A hand on the knee is not a sexual assault. My daughters are more than capable of handling such a situation, and have, as have I. They are sensible girls who have been though hard things and keep things in perspective.
> So someone who has a hand on their knee feels horror??? Shame????Really??? Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. I am not talking about serious sexual assault here, but a minor thing such as I have described. How will these people cope with life if they are so traumatised by such an insignificant minor action. They will go to pieces if anything truly bad happens to them.
> No wonder they call this the snowflake generation. :frown2:


Hard to tell if comprehension or being deliberately obtuse is at play here.

You are the one trying to debase this issue by harping on about hand on knees. Others are saying this is a very real and critical problem that has been going on for decades. Finally now people are speaking out in larger numbers, more power to them to help bring about change and stop future victims from having to suffer.

But yeah when you unconditionally support an institution that is rife with pedophiles it is better to debase these issues, you know, sweep it under the rug.


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## NobodySpecial

uhtred said:


> I think the attention on sexual offenses is good, but I with it was more directed at present day and very recent offenses - o which there are a lot.


The problem is that victims still face consequences to THEIR lives if they expose. It is a really sticky wicket.


----------



## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> Hard to tell if comprehension or being deliberately obtuse is at play here.
> 
> You are the one trying to debase this issue by harping on about hand on knees. Others are saying this is a very real and critical problem that has been going on for decades. Finally now people are speaking out in larger numbers, more power to them to help bring about change and stop future victims from having to suffer.
> 
> But yeah when you unconditionally support an institution that is rife with pedophiles it is better to debase these issues, you know, sweep it under the rug.



Firstly I am talking about hands on knees because several of the claims in the UK have been just for that. 

Secondly I am not taking about pedophiles, but adults with adults. 

Thirdly, I support no one who actually sexually abuses another.


----------



## anonmd

Red Sonja said:


> I did not know that about the mortgage industry, but then again I have never dealt with a female mortgage broker in person.
> 
> I know that amongst industries where they are selling to the public some definitely use sex as an enticement. Attend any so called trade show and you will observe it happening or look at advertising campaigns.
> 
> I misunderstood, *I thought you were taking about inside the workplace where one gives "signals" between employees.* I didn't know you were talking about selling to the public, both men and women use sex to sell in that arena.
> 
> In any case, thank you for answering.


In less public or sales oriented workplaces women still give signals. Rest assured though, they are going to be more overt and conscious. It's been a couple decades + since I've observed those particular signals, we're married, so I've either not been looking or being 'taken' is sufficient to ward them off  

Vast majority of men in the workplace should have seen enough harassment training materials by now to NOT mistake any normal to hot female going about her job no matter what she chooses to wear for anything other than a co-worker.


----------



## 269370

sandcastle said:


> A hand on the knee turns into a hand on the boob turns into a hand in the crotch turns into...
> 
> Diana- while you may be a tough broad who takes no **** and kills the prisoner and raised YOUR daughters that way - millions upon millions of humans do not have your intestinal fortitude/ life experience/ smarts/ support or whatever else you are lucky enough to have in your corner.
> 
> So- the advice that a "hand on the knee" is just perpetuating what is no big deal.
> Which is what the problem is.
> 
> Oh! I wanted to pull down my pants and show you my erect penis! What is the big deal? All us men that control your paycheck do it. No big deal.


What is this hysteria - I don't think anyone is talking about hands on crotches or boobs. Or even that putting a hand on the knee is appropriate...Just that it is normally possible to deal with a minor issue yourself and not necessarily call the cops if someone put a hand on someone's knee. *It is not ok to do it* but it is not the same as serious sexual assault. *Which still doesn't make it ok*. I think that's all she was saying. Why the need to extrapolate? People need to be able to distinguish between minor/major sexual assault or minor/major sexual harassment. *All these things are wrong*. But *they are not all the same things*. and what good does it do lumping it all together?
They don't usually give out the same sentences for different crimes why should it be different when it comes to sexual assault?


----------



## 269370

I think that's the story being referred to:

"Fallon admitted earlier this week to inappropriately touching the knee of journalist Julia Hartley-Brewer in 2002.

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/11/2/16597632/michael-fallon-resign-sexual-harassment-united-kingdom


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## Red Sonja

anonmd said:


> In less public or sales oriented workplaces women still give signals. Rest assured though, they are going to be more overt and conscious.


Perhaps then you can answer my original question and tell me what these "signals" are?


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## anonmd

Red Sonja said:


> Perhaps then you can answer my original question and tell me what these "signals" are?


Being very flirty and helpful over an extended period of time, talking about sex, exposing her body. OVERT


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## Elizabeth001

Ok...”putting a hand on the knee” is NOT a welcomed gesture. I think all of this public exposure is good. It’s making people think twice about what they are doing , even if it is as “simple” as a hand on the knee. @Diana7 putting a hand on the knee is out of bounds in most circumstances. If you want to play southern belle, then more power to you but you seem to surround yourself with a bubble of things only YOU have experienced. You come across as having zero empathy for anyone who hasn’t experienced life exactly the way you have. 

Most of your posts make me immediately want to hit the anger button, but at the end of the day, I just really feel sorry for you. Especially at your age. SMH


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## VibrantWings

Just felt the need to address all the "hand on the knee" debating.

I've had much worse happen to me than a hand on the knee. We'll leave it at that. Felt the need to share that because apparently my opinion wouldn't count with some if I couldn't truthfully say that.

What is the actual problem with the unwelcome hand on a knee? Not the hand...not the knee...not a "hysterical" reaction...not over-dramatization.

Think about the INTENT and thought process behind the hand. Do you think a man gets off by simply touching someone's knee? Nah, I doubt it. Haven't known any guys like that myself. 

I view it as a TEST of sorts...to see the reaction of knee owner. Is knee owner okay with this "no big deal" approach? Sure she might blow it off but what if it evolves into something else? Makes someone feel they have license/a green light to test/touch further? 

The men in my family, men I work with, men I am friends with....they don't touch my knees.
Boyfriends/lovers/husbands? They are being affectionate....or working up to something. I don't touch the knees of men I'm not intimate with. 

It can be, and is probably meant as a subtle (or not) sexual overture. Some people aren't comfortable with sexual overtures.

This stuff about who has "suffered more" is baloney. I'm not a hothouse flower myself and I'm the mother of three daughters. People need to keep their effing hands off their knees if they haven't been given permission.


----------



## Elizabeth001

VibrantWings said:


> Just felt the need to address all the "hand on the knee" debating.
> 
> I've had much worse happen to me than a hand on the knee. We'll leave it at that. Felt the need to share that because apparently my opinion wouldn't count with some if I couldn't truthfully say that.
> 
> What is the actual problem with the unwelcome hand on a knee? Not the hand...not the knee...not a "hysterical" reaction...not over-dramatization.
> 
> Think about the INTENT and thought process behind the hand. Do you think a man gets off by simply touching someone's knee? Nah, I doubt it. Haven't known any guys like that myself.
> 
> I view it as a TEST of sorts...to see the reaction of knee owner. Is knee owner okay with this "no big deal" approach? Sure she might blow it off but what if it evolves into something else? Makes someone feel they have license/a green light to test/touch further?
> 
> The men in my family, men I work with, men I am friends with....they don't touch my knees.
> Boyfriends/lovers/husbands? They are being affectionate....or working up to something. I don't touch the knees of men I'm not intimate with.
> 
> It can be, and is probably meant as a subtle (or not) sexual overture. Some people aren't comfortable with sexual overtures.
> 
> This stuff about who has "suffered more" is baloney. I'm not a hothouse flower myself and I'm the mother of three daughters. People need to keep their effing hands off their knees if they haven't given permission.




YES!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Red Sonja

anonmd said:


> Being very flirty and helpful over an extended period of time, talking about sex, exposing her body. OVERT


:surprise:

You have observed this in the workplace between coworkers? What sort of industry? I have never seen it in my industry (STEM) nor in my youth when I worked construction and farm work.

I've had overtures made to me in the workplace many times (easy enough to shut down) however I always wondered if I made myself open to them somehow. I have never done what you describe above so I asked because I thought the "signals" might be something subtle. What you describe is NOT subtle.

Most of the overtures in my case were from STEM-management-types or military officers (DoD). Maybe they are more brazen? Or, I suppose it may just be due to some people having different personal boundaries in the workplace.


----------



## anonmd

Red Sonja said:


> :surprise:
> 
> You have observed this in the workplace between coworkers? What sort of industry? I have never seen it in my industry (STEM) nor in my youth when I worked construction and farm work.
> 
> I've had overtures made to me in the workplace many times (easy enough to shut down) however I *always wondered if I made myself open to them somehow*. I have never done what you describe above so I asked because I thought the "signals" might be something subtle. What you describe is NOT subtle.
> 
> Most of the overtures in my case were from STEM-management-types or military officers (DoD). Maybe they are more brazen? Or, I suppose it may just be due to some people having different personal boundaries in the workplace.


In the modern workplace, outside of Hollywood I suppose, you are not leaving yourself open to it. You would have to intentionally respond to the overture first. 

Observed others? No, goes on in private. Participated? Yes, married her . Roughly everyone eventually pairs off with someone. If the workplace has a decent # of 20-30 somethings at least some are going to get together.


----------



## uhtred

I've never seen more than light (mutual) flirting at work - but I think the prevalence varies a lot by workplace. 



Red Sonja said:


> :surprise:
> 
> You have observed this in the workplace between coworkers? What sort of industry? I have never seen it in my industry (STEM) nor in my youth when I worked construction and farm work.
> 
> I've had overtures made to me in the workplace many times (easy enough to shut down) however I always wondered if I made myself open to them somehow. I have never done what you describe above so I asked because I thought the "signals" might be something subtle. What you describe is NOT subtle.
> 
> Most of the overtures in my case were from STEM-management-types or military officers (DoD). Maybe they are more brazen? Or, I suppose it may just be due to some people having different personal boundaries in the workplace.


----------



## uhtred

I don't see the confusion - to me its all about appropriate "escalation". If a woman seems to be giving "signals" then its OK to respond in kind, slightly escalated. Say "hi". See if she wants to grab a coffee from the pot. Invite here and others to lunch. Basically take one mild step and see if she matches or draws back.

No reasonable person should assume that an attractive woman who smiles at you wants to be grabbed. 



anonmd said:


> In less public or sales oriented workplaces women still give signals. Rest assured though, they are going to be more overt and conscious. It's been a couple decades + since I've observed those particular signals, we're married, so I've either not been looking or being 'taken' is sufficient to ward them off
> 
> Vast majority of men in the workplace should have seen enough harassment training materials by now to NOT mistake any normal to hot female going about her job no matter what she chooses to wear for anything other than a co-worker.


----------



## NobodySpecial

On prevalence. My then 13 year old daughter was cornered on the subway in a city we visited. I found out yesterday that she is, now 14, already receiving unsolicited (not like she would solicit them) d!ck pics on social media. Yah, it's prevalent.


----------



## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> On prevalence. My then 13 year old daughter was cornered on the subway in a city we visited. I found out yesterday that she is, now 14, already receiving unsolicited (not like she would solicit them) d!ck pics on social media. Yah, it's prevalent.


Those braintrusts sending your daughter pics should get short video clips of cattle being castrated.


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## MrsHolland

This whole thread is akin to me as a white, middle class woman asking if racism towards minorities or black women is prevalent. I think that is what irks me about the question, men asking if sexual abuse or harassment towards women is really "that" prevalent, um, yes it is and I can't see that changing any time soon. The main difference today is that at least women can speak up and have a voice.


----------



## Blondilocks

To be fair, the OP has two teenage daughters and he needs to be up on behaviors that can affect them. If I had a teenage daughter nowadays, I would be scared to death to let her out alone. No telling what ridiculous lengths I would go to to protect her.


----------



## MattMatt

TX-SC said:


> I'm seeing all of the "Me too" stories about sexual harassment and sexual assault. Are you guys seeing this often? Is it really that prevalent in our society? If so, it's really sad!
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


When I was at a train station using the common urinal trench a scruffy looking man with dirty blonde hair with a small child in tow stood beside me, glanced down at my circumcised penis and said: "No cream cheese, I see?"

It wasn't a physical assault but it did upset me.

And when I was working for a company it was brought to my attention that a member of staff was sexually abusing young females in the workplace.

I immediately reported him to the owner of the company and she had him immediately suspended and reported him to the police.

He ended up being found guilty and lost his job.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MrsHolland said:


> This whole thread is akin to me as a white, middle class woman asking if racism towards minorities or black women is prevalent. I think that is what irks me about the question, men asking if sexual abuse or harassment towards women is really "that" prevalent, um, yes it is and I can't see that changing any time soon. The main difference today is that at least women can speak up and have a voice.


It bothers me how young my daughter has come to accept that this is just normal.


----------



## Diana7

Blondilocks said:


> To be fair, the OP has two teenage daughters and he needs to be up on behaviors that can affect them. If I had a teenage daughter nowadays, I would be scared to death to let her out alone. No telling what ridiculous lengths I would go to to protect her.


I dont think its any worse than it was.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Diana7 said:


> I dont think its any worse than it was.


It wasn't that great. I don't think that is forward progress.


----------



## Blondilocks

Diana7 said:


> I dont think its any worse than it was.


Dating has changed significantly from when I was active. Do teenagers even date anymore? I had neighbors with a teenage daughter who was a beautiful girl and a cheerleader in high school who never went on a single date in high school.


----------



## sandcastle

Diana7 said:


> I dont think its any worse than it was.


The amount of porn that Tweens, teens and under 30's are exposed to is absolutely changing "shock value" There is basically nothing that is taboo.

The amout of threesomes taking place in college dorms probably equals couple sex.

Oral sex on the school bus to Jr. High School ?

Cyber- sexing during class?

Lunchtime is not being spent playing kickball.

What used to be considered outrageous, promiscuous and ADULT behavior is the norm for very young children and that pervasive attitude is everywhere in the workplace , everywhere in the world.


----------



## NobodySpecial

sandcastle said:


> The amount of porn that Tweens, teens and under 30's are exposed to is absolutely changing "shock value" There is basically nothing that is taboo.
> 
> The amout of threesomes taking place in college dorms probably equals couple sex.
> 
> Oral sex on the school bus to Jr. High School ?
> 
> Cyber- sexing during class?
> 
> Lunchtime is not being spent playing kickball.
> 
> What used to be considered outrageous, promiscuous and ADULT behavior is the norm for very young children and that pervasive attitude is everywhere in the workplace , everywhere in the world.


**** shaming of girls who do this is also still real. I have never ever seen this sort of thing in the workplace though. That is pretty much and instant firing at the place I currently work.


----------



## Diana7

sandcastle said:


> The amount of porn that Tweens, teens and under 30's are exposed to is absolutely changing "shock value" There is basically nothing that is taboo.
> 
> The amout of threesomes taking place in college dorms probably equals couple sex.
> 
> Oral sex on the school bus to Jr. High School ?
> 
> Cyber- sexing during class?
> 
> Lunchtime is not being spent playing kickball.
> 
> What used to be considered outrageous, promiscuous and ADULT behavior is the norm for very young children and that pervasive attitude is everywhere in the workplace , everywhere in the world.


 Yes I agree that porn use is far worse and that moral values have plummeted, but I was talking about the fact that sexual abuse/molestation isn't any worse. It happened then and it happens now, both to men and women.


----------



## sandcastle

Diana7 said:


> Yes I agree that porn use is far worse and that moral values have plummeted, but I was talking about the fact that sexual abuse/molestation isn't any worse. It happened then and it happens now, both to men and women.


My point is that people have become inured to inappropriate sexual behavior because almost anything goes.

How long did Anthony Weiner get away with his antics? 

So -when an 18 yr. old in the workplace is confronted with sexual overtures or blatant hits

It is not shocking to them- 

Yeah- my boss made some reference to a BJ or a threesome or whatever. No big deal and I want to keep my job, not be a troublemaker or move my way up.

What is disturbing is how "normal" it has become.


----------



## Aspydad

Elizabeth001 said:


> Ok...”putting a hand on the knee” is NOT a welcomed gesture. I think all of this public exposure is good. It’s making people think twice about what they are doing , even if it is as “simple” as a hand on the knee. @Diana7 putting a hand on the knee is out of bounds in most circumstances. If you want to play southern belle, then more power to you but you seem to surround yourself with a bubble of things only YOU have experienced. You come across as having zero empathy for anyone who hasn’t experienced life exactly the way you have.
> 
> Most of your posts make me immediately want to hit the anger button, but at the end of the day, I just really feel sorry for you. Especially at your age. SMH
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What about hand on shoulder?? Is that an unwanted gesture too?? What about hand on back?? 

I have a women that I work with that is full of hugs and hands - all the time will put a hand on my shoulder - or even pat me on the back. Is that bad?? 

To me - hands on shoulder would worse that hand on knee. The only problem I would have with hand on knee is that can tickle sometimes.


----------



## Diana7

sandcastle said:


> My point is that people have become inured to inappropriate sexual behavior because almost anything goes.
> 
> How long did Anthony Weiner get away with his antics?
> 
> So -when an 18 yr. old in the workplace is confronted with sexual overtures or blatant hits
> 
> It is not shocking to them-
> 
> Yeah- my boss made some reference to a BJ or a threesome or whatever. No big deal and I want to keep my job, not be a troublemaker or move my way up.
> 
> What is disturbing is how "normal" it has become.


It wasnt shocking to me when I was growing up in the 60's either. We didn't get so stressed about such things then. People were far more resilient. Honestly I never think or worry about the times that I had a hand put somewhere it shouldn't be. I have far more sympathy for those who were actually seriously abused/raped, especially as children.


----------



## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> Yes I agree that porn use is far worse and that moral values have plummeted, but I was talking about the fact that sexual abuse/molestation isn't any worse. It happened then and it happens now, both to men and women.


So you are saying that women used to have a finger put up them or groped in public transport in the 60's. That women going to a crowded pub or concert were often molested back then?

Sexual abuse has always happened but without a doubt it is worse now than it used to be a few generations ago. Just because it is not a concern for you doesn't make it a non problem.


----------



## Blondilocks

I know Great Britain is an island, but holy cow!


----------



## NobodySpecial

Aspydad said:


> What about hand on shoulder?? Is that an unwanted gesture too?? What about hand on back??
> 
> I have a women that I work with that is full of hugs and hands - all the time will put a hand on my shoulder - or even pat me on the back. Is that bad??


Is it? You tell us. Every sexual harassment training from an employer I have ever had talks about the comfort level of the recipient. Step one is for said recipient to say something like, I don't like to be touched please.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MrsHolland said:


> So you are saying that women used to have a finger put up them or groped in public transport in the 60's. That women going to a crowded pub or concert were often molested back then?
> 
> Sexual abuse has always happened but without a doubt it is worse now than it used to be a few generations ago. Just because it is not a concern for you doesn't make it a non problem.


Why would we think it is worse now without a doubt? The culture back then was victim blaming. You bet your sweet ass I never reported anything that happened to me. I mean the rapist was a murdering drug dealer so that had its own risk. But we have no statistics to support that it is worse now. All we have is more vocal opposition to it.


----------



## Diana7

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would we think it is worse now without a doubt? The culture back then was victim blaming. You bet your sweet ass I never reported anything that happened to me. I mean the rapist was a murdering drug dealer so that had its own risk. But we have no statistics to support that it is worse now. All we have is more vocal opposition to it.


It was worse then I feel, but we were tougher and didn't make such a fuss. People then had far more things to worry about.
I read an article recently about a woman who was in the Wrens(air force). She said that if they didn't have their bottoms pinched on a very regular basis they thought there was something wrong with them. 
People now complain about every little thing and make such a fuss. I barely remember the things that happened to me.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Diana7 said:


> It was worse then I feel, but we were tougher and didn't make such a fuss. People then had far more things to worry about.
> I read an article recently about a woman who was in the Wrens(air force). She said that if they didn't have their bottoms pinched on a very regular basis they thought there was something wrong with them.
> People now complain about every little thing and make such a fuss. I barely remember the things that happened to me.


Yah that is what I want from my combat buddies. Woo Hoo! Do you know what a violent place the military is for women? I, for one, don't want my daughter to think that her assets are all in her body and her looks and that is her value to men. Color me nuts.


----------



## MrsHolland

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would we think it is worse now without a doubt? The culture back then was victim blaming. You bet your sweet ass I never reported anything that happened to me. I mean the rapist was a murdering drug dealer so that had its own risk. But we have no statistics to support that it is worse now. All we have is more vocal opposition to it.


Sexual assault among young people is on the rise. But why? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Australian Institute of Criminology - Trend in sexual assault
4510.0 - Recorded Crime - Victims, Australia, 2014
Sexual violence and harassment going up, according to ABS survey - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

It is still under reported, the rate of reporting dropped to 15% here in 2016. Sure there is a lot more in the media but rates of occurrence is increasing while rates of reporting is decreasing. No one knows how big an issue this really is. One of the most horrifying aspects in the increase in very young people being the perpetrators.


----------



## Diana7

NobodySpecial said:


> Yah that is what I want from my combat buddies. Woo Hoo! Do you know what a violent place the military is for women? I, for one, don't want my daughter to think that her assets are all in her body and her looks and that is her value to men. Color me nuts.


As I said things were different then and people just got on with it. Now you can't say or do anything without someone having a hissy fit.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MrsHolland said:


> Sexual assault among young people is on the rise. But why? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> Australian Institute of Criminology - Trend in sexual assault
> 4510.0 - Recorded Crime - Victims, Australia, 2014
> Sexual violence and harassment going up, according to ABS survey - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
> 
> It is still under reported, the rate of reporting dropped to 15% here in 2016. Sure there is a lot more in the media but rates of occurrence is increasing while rates of reporting is decreasing. No one knows how big an issue this really is. One of the most horrifying aspects in the increase in very young people being the perpetrators.


Huh. Thanks. Yah the digital age has made it possible.... as evidence by the unsolicited pics my FORTEEN year old is receiving.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Diana7 said:


> As I said things were different then and people just got on with it. Now you can't say or do anything without someone having a hissy fit.


So the fact that people tolerated this bad behavior somehow made it good behavior and that people feel ok speaking out about bad behavior is a bad thing. Got it.

ETA: I think I will tell my daughter not to throw a hissy fit the next time she is physically assaulted on the subway and not to make a "fuss" unless she is raped. yah, that'll be good.


----------



## 269370

MrsHolland said:


> So you are saying that women used to have a finger put up them or groped in public transport in the 60's. That women going to a crowded pub or concert were often molested back then?
> 
> Sexual abuse has always happened but without a doubt it is worse now than it used to be a few generations ago. Just because it is not a concern for you doesn't make it a non problem.


Oh I am pretty sure this is correct: molestation/abuse always happened. Perhaps even more so back then than now. The only difference NOW is that it is reported much more widely and instantly (especially more recently). Plus women dare to speak out more (which they should!). The news is instant now and things are much more interconnected. If something becomes viral, it is viral in its true sense. (Talking about news coverage).
Plus a lot of the accusations date back 20 years ago. At the moment, it's in vogue and some things are way over the top and blown out of proportion but that's just because the world and the society is a very unbalanced place: either some things are over-reported or under-reported. Does not say anything at all whether molestation happens now more or less frequent than before.
I disagree with Diane on some issues (like no sex before marriage etc) but she is right about the fact that it is and has always been prevalent and that there are more things blown out of proportion than in the past. Some things should have been made into bigger issues in the past whether other things now, are made into way too much of an issue.
But yes, any harassment is obviously wrong and should not occur at all. (We are talking about frequency and severity, not whether it is right or wrong as a concept, just to be clear).


----------



## MrsHolland

inmyprime said:


> Oh I am pretty sure this is correct: molestation/abuse always happened. Perhaps even more so back then than now. The only difference NOW is that it is reported much more widely and instantly (especially more recently). Plus women dare to speak out more (which they should!). The news is instant now and things are much more interconnected. If something becomes viral, it is viral in its true sense. (Talking about news coverage).
> Plus a lot of the accusations date back 20 years ago. At the moment, it's in vogue and some things are way over the top and blown out of proportion but that's just because the world and the society is a very unbalanced place: either some things are over-reported or under-reported. Does not say anything at all whether molestation happens now more or less frequent than before.
> I disagree with Diane on some issues (like no sex before marriage etc) but she is right about the fact that it is and has always been prevalent. Some things should have been made into bigger issues whether other things now, are made into way too much of an issue.


I think I will take the word from the experts that the rates are going up. Yes it has always been an issue but according to stats the problem is increasing. It is increasing for both male and female victims but here in Aus the males victim category is growing at a faster rate (still no where near the % of female victims).


----------



## 269370

MrsHolland said:


> I think I will take the word from the experts that the rates are going up. Yes it has always been an issue but according to stats the problem is increasing. It is increasing for both male and female victims but here in Aus the males victim category is growing at a faster rate (still no where near the % of female victims).


Sure, it's possible it's actually increasing but I would have thought that it's to do with the fact that more people are coming forward and better data collection (which makes the statistical data kind of useless).
It's fairly common for underdeveloped countries to have more rapes but have terrible reporting statistics, correct? (India etc) Common sense would indicate that that would apply to the past (more rapes, worse statistical information to work with as less people come forward/less reported data etc).


----------



## Bonkers

MrsHolland said:


> the rates are going up.


That could be a pun.


----------



## MrsHolland

inmyprime said:


> Sure, it's possible it's actually increasing but I would have thought that it's to do with the fact that more people are coming forward and better data collection (which makes the statistical data kind of useless).
> It's fairly common for underdeveloped countries to have more rapes but have terrible reporting statistics, correct? (India etc) Common sense would indicate that that would apply to the past (more rapes, worse statistical information to work with as less people come forward/less reported data etc).


The links I posted were Australian data, very much a first world country.


----------



## 269370

MrsHolland said:


> The links I posted were Australian data, very much a first world country.



I’m not sure I explained the relevance of a country like India clearly enough.

Whether you look at data from Australia or US or Uk (now vs the past): if people report more rapes, all it means is that people are reporting more rapes, not that more rapes actually take place.

Asking the question another way: what is in your opinion the explanation why the rape statistic is gone up? Due to more porn? Well there’s data that shows that porn reduces sexual violence. How do you reconcile that.
It makes absolutely no sense for there to be more sexual violence now vs 60 years ago. People obviously report it more, creating more data points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

Other data: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...n-over-past-two-decades-so-all-violent-crime/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370

MrsHolland said:


> The links I posted were Australian data, very much a first world country.




Actually the data you posted may not be accurate (or is selective):

From wiki:

‘Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%. There are several possible explanations for this, including stricter laws, education on security for women, and a correlation with the rise in Internet pornography.’




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> I’m not sure I explained the relevance of a country like India clearly enough.
> 
> Whether you look at data from Australia or US or Uk (now vs the past): if people report more rapes, all it means is that people are reporting more rapes, not that more rapes actually take place.
> 
> Asking the question another way: what is in your opinion the explanation why the rape statistic is gone up? Due to more porn? Well there’s data that shows that porn reduces sexual violence. How do you reconcile that.
> It makes absolutely no sense for there to be more sexual violence now vs 60 years ago. People obviously report it more, creating more data points.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


There are possibly fewer repercussions for raping these days.

Society plays with predators like it is a game. Start seriously harming or killing predators and the number will drop significantly.

They apparently have little to fear these days? Bad reputation? Please...


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> There are possibly fewer repercussions for raping these days.
> 
> Society plays with predators like it is a game. Start seriously harming or killing predators and the number will drop significantly.
> 
> They apparently have little to fear these days? Bad reputation? Please...


There are more repercussions for rape these days. There are also fewer rapes compared to the past.


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> Actually the data you posted may not be accurate (or is selective):
> 
> From wiki:
> 
> ‘Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped during that year) to about 0.4 per 1000 people, a decline of about 85%. There are several possible explanations for this, including stricter laws, education on security for women, and a correlation with the rise in Internet pornography.’
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Interesting. So you think porn users don't rape as much?

Porn reduces rape?


----------



## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Interesting. So you think porn users don't rape as much?
> 
> Porn reduces rape?


That's not what I think, it's what it is: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> There are more repercussions for rape these days. There are also fewer rapes compared to the past.


Having a reputation for a while, many registered rapists slip through, is hardly serious repercussions.

Personally, I think every forcible rape should be met with a lethal response.

It also depends on how far back in history you want to look.

I think rapists pretty much get a slap on the wrist even when fully prosecuted.


----------



## ConanHub

inmyprime said:


> That's not what I think, it's what it is: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault


Have to double check that very pro porn article about reducing rape but I know that article is full of sh*t claiming porn makes for closer interpersonal connections.

Over two decades of interacting with the effects of porn on sexuality in marriage and how it impacts relationships has made my point of view radically different than that article. I have never claimed, BTW, that porn increases the likelihood of rape but I have observed other factors in play.

The article looks like it was written by some serious wankers or was funded by the industry itself.


----------



## Personal

ConanHub said:


> Interesting. So you think porn users don't rape as much?
> 
> Porn reduces rape?


As published on the Australian Government, Australian Institute of Criminology website.

*PORNOGRAPHY, SEX CRIME, AND PUBLIC POLICY*
Berl Kutchinsky Professor of Criminology Institute of Criminology and Criminal Science University of Copenhagen Denmark

http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/14/kutchinsky.pdf



> *Conclusion*
> 
> The aggregate data on rape and other violent or sexual offences from four countries where pornography, including aggressive varieties, has become widely and easily available during the period we have dealt with would seem to exclude, beyond any reasonable doubt, that this availability has had any detrimental effects in the form of increased sexual violence. The data from West Germany is striking since here, the only increase in sexual violence takes place in the form which includes the least serious forms of sexual coercion and where there may have been increases in reporting frequency. As far as the other forms of sexual violence are concerned, the remarkable fact is that they decreasedthe more so, the more serious the offence.
> 
> This finding is not so strange. Most other research data we have about pornography and rape suggest that the link between them is more than weak. Our knowledge about the contents, the uses and the users of pornography suggests that pornography does not represent a blueprint for rape, but is essentially an aphrodisiac, that is, food for the sexual fantasy of personsmostly maleswho like to masturbate.
> 
> The policy implications of this conclusion are, of course open to debate. But as mentioned earlier, the mainstream attitude would seem to be a combination of two movements:
> 
> 
> * to reduce the area of total prohibition and censorship to a minimum; and
> 
> * to implement a variety of restrictions, suitable to each form of pornography, in order to obtain maximum protection of children, and of adults who want no confrontation with the material.


As published on the Psychology Today website.

*Evidence Mounts: More Porn, LESS Sexual Assault*
Those who claim that porn incites rape are mistaken.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault



> *Compared with Most Men, Rapists Consume LESS Porn*
> 
> UCLA researchers surveyed recollections of porn use among law-abiding men and a large group of convicted rapists and child sex abusers. Throughout their lives, the sex criminals recalled consuming LESS porn. More evidence that porn is a safety valve. Instead of committing rape and pedophilia, potential perpetrators find a less harmful outlet, masturbating to porn.
> 
> *Pornography DOESN’T Isolate Men*
> 
> As evidence mounted that if anything, porn helps PREVENT sexual assault, porn critics changed their tune. Instead of blaming X-media for harming women, they claimed it harms MEN by confining them in a dark prison of masturbatory isolation that destroys their interpersonal relationships with others.
> 
> English researchers gave 164 men standard psychological tests of interpersonal connectedness to determine their emotional closeness to—or distance from—the important people in their lives (spouses, family, friends). Then the researchers surveyed the men’s porn consumption.
> 
> Contrary to the critics’ assertions, as porn consumptions increased, so did emotional closeness to others. Far from providing an escape from close relationships, the researchers suggested that porn use may signify a “craving for intimacy.”
> 
> Those who feel offended or disgusted by pornography are entitled to their opinion. But they are not entitled to misrepresent its effects on men and society. Porn does NOT isolate men from significant others, nor does it contribute to rape and other sex crimes.


As published on the Scientific American website.

*The Sunny Side of Smut*
For most people, pornography use has no negative effects—and it may even deter sexual violence

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/



> “Rates of rapes and sexual assault in the U.S. are at their lowest levels since the 1960s,” says Christopher J. Ferguson, a professor of psychology and criminal justice at Texas A&M International University. The same goes for other countries: as access to pornography grew in once restrictive Japan, China and Denmark in the past 40 years, rape statistics plummeted. Within the U.S., the states with the least Internet access between 1980 and 2000—and therefore the least access to Internet pornography—experienced a 53 percent increase in rape incidence, whereas the states with the most access experienced a 27 percent drop in the number of reported rapes, according to a paper published in 2006 by Anthony D’Amato, a law professor at Northwestern University.





> It turns out that among porn viewers, the amount of porn each subject consumed had nothing to do with his or her mental state. What mattered most, Twohig found, was whether the subjects tried to control their sexual thoughts and desires. The more they tried to clamp down on their urge for sex or porn, the more likely they were to consider their own pornography use a problem. The findings suggest that suppressing the desire to view pornography, for example, for moral or religious reasons, might actually strengthen the urge for it and exacerbate sexual problems. It’s all about “personal views and personal values,” Twohig says. In other words, the effects of pornography—positive or negative—have little to do with the medium itself and everything to do with the person viewing it.


----------



## Red Sonja

inmyprime said:


> There are more repercussions for rape these days. *There are also fewer rapes compared to the past.*


To which segment of the past do you refer? Reported rapes and per capita rape rates have been steadily increasing in the USA since 2013 (source FBI.gov). Rape had been increasing steadily for several years before that however they changed the definition of rape in 2012.

Do you forget what happened in Bosnia (recent past) or what is happening in the Middle East as we speak?


----------



## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> I think I will take the word from the experts that the rates are going up. Yes it has always been an issue but according to stats the problem is increasing. It is increasing for both male and female victims but here in Aus the males victim category is growing at a faster rate (still no where near the % of female victims).


As sokillme said, it just wasn't reported before. We just didn't think that the more minor things were worth bothering about. It was accepted as part of life. 
Now with social media etc everyone's lives are on show for everyone else. Its gone way too far now, with so many people wanting to get in on the game, but many who have actually been seriously abused would never take part in this 'and me' stuff. They are not looking for sympathy or attention, and are just getting on with their lives. I know many like this. I admire them greatly.


----------



## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> As sokillme said, it just wasn't reported before. We just didn't think that the more minor things were worth bothering about. It was accepted as part of life.
> Now with social media etc everyone's lives are on show for everyone else. Its gone way too far now, with so many people wanting to get in on the game, but many who have actually been seriously abused would never take part in this 'and me' stuff. They are not looking for sympathy or attention, and are just getting on with their lives. I know many like this. I admire them greatly.


No you are incorrect. The official stats show that the rates of sexual abuse are going up. And again what happens in your very sheltered little world is irrelevant.


----------



## ConanHub

Personal said:


> As published on the Australian Government, Australian Institute of Criminology website.
> 
> *PORNOGRAPHY, SEX CRIME, AND PUBLIC POLICY*
> Berl Kutchinsky Professor of Criminology Institute of Criminology and Criminal Science University of Copenhagen Denmark
> 
> http://aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/proceedings/14/kutchinsky.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> As published on the Psychology Today website.
> 
> *Evidence Mounts: More Porn, LESS Sexual Assault*
> Those who claim that porn incites rape are mistaken.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...evidence-mounts-more-porn-less-sexual-assault
> 
> 
> 
> As published on the Scientific American website.
> 
> *The Sunny Side of Smut*
> For most people, pornography use has no negative effects—and it may even deter sexual violence
> 
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-sunny-side-of-smut/


The rape data is very interesting. Thanks for the sources. The psychology today blog was full of excrement about porn users having closer relationships though. 

I'm not pro porn but I have nothing against data. It would appear, according to the sources listed, that some rapists stop raping as much and become wankers instead when porn is available.


----------



## RandomDude

Hope that's the case, because my generation and the previous generation's pretty messed up when it comes to this.


----------



## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> No you are incorrect. The official stats show that the rates of sexual abuse are going up. And again what happens in your very sheltered little world is irrelevant.


As it happens I know many who were sexually abused as children, some of them in my own family, so far from sheltered. In fact the complete opposite. I have even been instrumental in getting 2 lots of older children away from severely sexually, physically and emotionally abusive parents, so don't judge things that you know nothing about. 

Anyone who grew up in the 40's, 50's or 60's, knows that abuse was very common then, but the more minor things were rarely reported or spoken about. There are no official stats for abuse back then, because NO ONE reported them. Even child abuse and rape were rarely reported to the police. So we don't know the figures for those times, therefore cannot compare with today when every thing is announced on facebook or twitter, people are accused and judged guilty with no judge or jury or trial, and people will go to the police with pretty minor complaints.


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## NobodySpecial

Diana7 said:


> As sokillme said, it just wasn't reported before. We just didn't think that the more minor things were worth bothering about. *It was accepted as part of life*.
> Now with social media etc everyone's lives are on show for everyone else. Its gone way too far now, with so many people wanting to get in on the game, but many who have actually been seriously abused would never take part in this 'and me' stuff. They are not looking for sympathy or attention, and are just getting on with their lives. I know many like this. I admire them greatly.


I was molested and raped. And I did. I do not accept that ANY of this needs to be accepted as part of life. That it was accepted spoke to the attitudes about women and girls at the time and is not a desirable thing. I want a new normal where women, my daughter included, can look a person straight in the eye and say I don't like being touched so familiar at work and be supported by her community, society and employer facing no consequences. When crushed like a lemming on the subway and some guys hand travels up her leg to her crotch, I want her to feel supported when she says I can't see who you are but get your hand off my body NOW. When she is accosted on the subway platform by a hobo (her word), I want her to feel she can tell him to **** off and not run away in fear. I want a new normal where people don't see that since men have done it women should get on board and start doing the same power crap to men.

No, I do not want to accept that this is part of life. Ever. When people call out its prevalence, it is not a ploy for attention. Who the hell would want attention to their guilt and shame? Because until people's voices are heard, that is what it is. The victim's guilt and shame. Ask me how I know.


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## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> As it happens I know many who were sexually abused as children, some of them in my own family, so far from sheltered. In fact the complete opposite. I have even been instrumental in getting 2 lots of older children away from severely sexually, physically and emotionally abusive parents, so don't judge things that you know nothing about.
> 
> Anyone who grew up in the 40's, 50's or 60's, knows that abuse was very common then, but the more minor things were rarely reported or spoken about. There are no official stats for abuse back then, because NO ONE reported them. Even child abuse and rape were rarely reported to the police. So we don't know the figures for those times, therefore cannot compare with today when every thing is announced on facebook or twitter, people are accused and judged guilty with no judge or jury or trial, and people will go to the police with pretty minor complaints.


The stats show that the rate of sexual abuse is increasing. The Govt figures also show that the rate of reporting in decreasing. This is not about your little world, the Govt stats hold credibility regardless of what you think.

It is interesting that you are accusing people of lying about what has happened to them. This is not about you and how you handled or would handle sexual assault.


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## NobodySpecial

MrsHolland said:


> The stats show that the rate of sexual abuse is increasing. The Govt figures also show that the rate of reporting in decreasing. This is not about your little world, the Govt stats hold credibility regardless of what you think.
> 
> It is interesting that you are accusing people of lying about what has happened to them. This is not about you and how you handled or would handle sexual assault.


A news report I heard on the radio lately indicates that the rate of false accusation remains very low compared the rate of incident. They did not share the source of their data. I can't help but think its oft mentioned prevalence is a distraction from a very real issue. That is should not occur is obvious. I think that the removal of the shame and castigation of injudicious sexual exploration of youth, seeing it as a mistake rather than a character flaw to be learned from like any other mistake, would go along way toward ceasing this behavior. In the US in particular, I don't know about other cultures, the focus on sex as some kind of bad, horrible, terrible thing you only do with the one you love is confusing and ... well stupid, particularly to young people. Sexual morality conversations center around marital paperwork and don't speak to the really complicated thing that relationships are. It is no wonder that they reject it and have no alternative view of sexuality to mold their opinions to. It is the reason that Nancy Reagan's Just Say No approach to drugs was a failure. You people can deduce that pot and heroine are NOT the same. So when we say that all drugs are bad, we minimize the real risks of each drug. We loose credibility to speak honestly on the subject and be listened to.

Sigh.


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## Diana7

MrsHolland said:


> The stats show that the rate of sexual abuse is increasing. The Govt figures also show that the rate of reporting in decreasing. This is not about your little world, the Govt stats hold credibility regardless of what you think.
> 
> It is interesting that you are accusing people of lying about what has happened to them. This is not about you and how you handled or would handle sexual assault.




Interesting that you always resort to rudeness. As I said I have had a lot of experience of abuse in my own family, and have helped many others who were terribly abused so clearly your comments are untrue. 
I have accused no one of lying although we all know that some will lie about anything in life. There have been a few cases in the UK recently where women were sent to jail for making up stories of rape and abuse to hurt and damage a man, so we must make sure that these cases are tried in court before we judge people. 

Gov stats can only report what has been reported. I am sure you realise that unreported cases will not be in any stats. 
I was born in the 50's and I know that few cases were reported or even spoken about then, especially the more minor cases. I know many who were abused back then who never
said anything. I think its good that more people today will report serious abuse, but it must be done properly through the police and not via some vague accusation on facebook or twitter that cant be proved or disproved.


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## Diana7

NobodySpecial said:


> A news report I heard on the radio lately indicates that the rate of false accusation remains very low compared the rate of incident. They did not share the source of their data. I can't help but think its oft mentioned prevalence is a distraction from a very real issue. That is should not occur is obvious. I think that the removal of the shame and castigation of injudicious sexual exploration of youth, seeing it as a mistake rather than a character flaw to be learned from like any other mistake, would go along way toward ceasing this behavior. In the US in particular, I don't know about other cultures, the focus on sex as some kind of bad, horrible, terrible thing you only do with the one you love is confusing and ... well stupid, particularly to young people. Sexual morality conversations center around marital paperwork and don't speak to the really complicated thing that relationships are. It is no wonder that they reject it and have no alternative view of sexuality to mold their opinions to. It is the reason that Nancy Reagan's Just Say No approach to drugs was a failure. You people can deduce that pot and heroine are NOT the same. So when we say that all drugs are bad, we minimize the real risks of each drug. We loose credibility to speak honestly on the subject and be listened to.
> 
> Sigh.


I heard recently that about 40% of these recent facebook/twitter accusations are probably false. Of course we will never know because the accused cant possibly clear their name over something that happened 10, 20,30 or more years ago. Of course their name will remain tainted even if they were innocent. 
Believe me I am not going to be so uncaring and mean that I want to ruin a mans life who tried to kiss me at work 40 years ago, or whatever it was that happened. 

Its sad if anyone gets the impression that sex is horrible and bad. Its certainly not what I pick up in my country. Its got very skewed yes, and that's sad.


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## NobodySpecial

Diana7 said:


> I heard recently that about 40% of these recent facebook/twitter accusations are probably false. Of course we will never know because the accused cant possibly clear their name over something that happened 10, 20,30 or more years ago. Of course their name will remain tainted even if they were innocent.
> Believe me I am not going to be so uncaring and mean that I want to ruin a mans life who tried to kiss me at work 40 years ago, or whatever it was that happened.
> 
> Its sad if anyone gets the impression that sex is horrible and bad. Its certainly not what I pick up in my country. Its got very skewed yes, and that's sad.


Leaving aside the unsourced statistic that you "heard", I can't see how a Facebook post of something that was done 40 years ago could ruin someone's life. I am not quite old enough to have done something 40 years ago that could come back to haunt me. But 30 years ago, I am. I guess those things are still my monkeys and still my circus. I kind of hope that I run into the girl who was mean to me in middle school to apologize for my wild and highly effective overreaction that was very detrimental to her. If someone did something 40 years ago that was shameful and bad, one can easily clear ones name by amends and apology. If I knew the handle of the man that molested me when I was 12, I might even shed light on that today. Sorry but it is still his monkeys and still his circus. 

If some ass was planting smooches on you, uninvited, at WORK 40 years ago, it strikes me as a good conversation piece to highlight the difference of expectation today when people who are harassed at work no longer have to tolerate it as business as usual. Sweeping bad behavior under the rug and normalizing it is simply not a good thing.


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## MrsHolland

Diana7 said:


> Interesting that you always resort to rudeness. As I said I have had a lot of experience of abuse in my own family, and have helped many others who were terribly abused so clearly your comments are untrue.
> I have accused no one of lying although we all know that some will lie about anything in life. There have been a few cases in the UK recently where women were sent to jail for making up stories of rape and abuse to hurt and damage a man, so we must make sure that these cases are tried in court before we judge people.
> 
> Gov stats can only report what has been reported. I am sure you realise that unreported cases will not be in any stats.
> I was born in the 50's and I know that few cases were reported or even spoken about then, especially the more minor cases. I know many who were abused back then who never
> said anything. I think its good that more people today will report serious abuse, but it must be done properly through the police and not via some vague accusation on facebook or twitter that cant be proved or disproved.


Stating the fact that you are accusing people of lying is not being rude.

And people that make false accusations should be punished, that is so wrong.


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## 269370

MrsHolland said:


> The stats show that the rate of sexual abuse is increasing. The Govt figures also show that the rate of reporting in decreasing. This is not about your little world, the Govt stats hold credibility regardless of what you think.
> 
> It is interesting that you are accusing people of lying about what has happened to them. This is not about you and how you handled or would handle sexual assault.


But your data seems to contradict this data:

"In Australia the reported rape rate per 100,000 people is relatively high, although it is in a decreasing trend, coming down from 91.6 in 2003[35] to 28.6 in 2010.[36] This stands in contrast to reported rape rate of 1.2 per 100,000 in Japan, 1.8 per 100,000 in India, 4.6 rapes per 100,000 in Bahrain, 12.3 per 100,000 in Mexico, 24.1 per 100,000 in United Kingdom, 28.6 per 100,000 in United States, 66.5 per 100,000 in Sweden, and the world's highest rate of 114.9 rapes per 100,000 in South Africa.[35][36]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#Australia


It's still high but the trend is clearly decreasing. It is pretty much the same for every developed country of you look. I have to look closer at your statistics when I have time but it doesn't seem right. Everything i google brings up the same: the trend is down for every developed country when it comes to rape.

It's possible that people report and speak up about sexual assaults now much more than in the past plus it's an extremely 'hot' topic at the moment (especially with 'men of power' in focus) and all over the news. I am pretty sure sexual assaults were always taking place (more so in the past which all the statistics seem confirm), just not reported as widely and not in the focus as much as it is now.

And btw, the aim is to bring it all the way down completely which i hope one day will happen.


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## 269370

Btw note the rape rate in India, it's completely bonkers. I am sure it must be higher. it's only showing up as low because it is probably underreported, highlighting precisely the problem with statistical data for this subject.
It's very hard to get accurate data on this but I can see why it is easy to think that sexual assaults are on the rise: it's constantly in the news and talked about.


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## 269370

ConanHub said:


> Having a reputation for a while, many registered rapists slip through, is hardly serious repercussions.
> 
> Personally, I think every forcible rape should be met with a lethal response.
> 
> It also depends on how far back in history you want to look.
> 
> I think rapists pretty much get a slap on the wrist even when fully prosecuted.


I am pretty sure a convicted rapist will still have to go to prison for a while.


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## NobodySpecial

inmyprime said:


> I am pretty sure a convicted rapist will still have to go to prison for a while.


The famous Stanford rapist got six months. Pffffft.


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## Elizabeth001

Matt Lauer?!?

Wow
 


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## Blondilocks

Rape is not the only sexual assault a person can suffer.

I can't understand how a person who has dealt with the trauma of serious sexual assault can still advocate rug-sweeping lesser behavior. If a person is taught from the get-go that any touch that is not welcomed is wrong, then, escalating to more serious behavior will be curtailed. When is a good time to learn that sexually harassing/assaulting people is wrong? Is it when the kid is twelve and suspended from school or when they are on the job and fired or wind up in court?


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## 269370

Before that I would say. Teaching kids basic manners and be a good example yourself is a good start.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## katies

Elizabeth001 said:


> Matt Lauer?!?


Rumors circulating about him for years. Not surprised.


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## Elizabeth001

katies said:


> Rumors circulating about him for years. Not surprised.




I actually never really cared much for him. He seems really arrogant to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## TX-SC

This is a great debate and I appreciate all input. As a husband and the father of two teen daughters, this subject is very important to me. I never want any of them to endure this type of behavior. 

A question: 

Is the concensus here that we should just assume that all allegations are the truth and men (or women) should be fired based only on one person's complaint? How would anyone prove or disprove such an allegation? We see this in college settings where a woman reports a man for a sex crime after some drunken sex, then he is basically kicked out of college with no real way to defend himself. Now, with all of the sexual harassment allegations, how do you know what actually happened?

I have never forced myself on anyone nor have I ever sexual harassed anyone. But, as an employer or supervisor, what happens if a female employee alleges that something happened? The rule these days seems to be that you just assume the complaint is valid.

How do we address this sticking point? 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## uhtred

Do you think the rate is actually increasing, or just being reported more?

(no opinion here but its a type of crime that is difficult to study because in the past women were strongly discouraged from reporting assault / rape)



MrsHolland said:


> The stats show that the rate of sexual abuse is increasing. The Govt figures also show that the rate of reporting in decreasing. This is not about your little world, the Govt stats hold credibility regardless of what you think.
> 
> It is interesting that you are accusing people of lying about what has happened to them. This is not about you and how you handled or would handle sexual assault.


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## Blondilocks

The claims need to be investigated.


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## uhtred

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

There is endless debate about whether porn encourages sexual assault or acts like an outlet for sexual aggression. Its very difficult to study: cultures where porn is common are going to be different in lots of other ways form those where it is forbidden. Changes in porn laws will likely correlate with other independent social changes.

Even if data showed that porn users committed more rapes, it might still not indicate any causation. 

There may be a way to study this accurately, but it sounds tricky. 




ConanHub said:


> Interesting. So you think porn users don't rape as much?
> 
> Porn reduces rape?






ConanHub said:


> Interesting. So you think porn users don't rape as much?
> 
> Porn reduces rape?


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## ConanHub

uhtred said:


> Correlation doesn't imply causation.
> 
> There is endless debate about whether porn encourages sexual assault or acts like an outlet for sexual aggression. Its very difficult to study: cultures where porn is common are going to be different in lots of other ways form those where it is forbidden. Changes in porn laws will likely correlate with other independent social changes.
> 
> Even if data showed that porn users committed more rapes, it might still not indicate any causation.
> 
> There may be a way to study this accurately, but it sounds tricky.


I pretty much agree.


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## NobodySpecial

TX-SC said:


> This is a great debate and I appreciate all input. As a husband and the father of two teen daughters, this subject is very important to me. I never want any of them to endure this type of behavior.
> 
> A question:
> 
> Is the concensus here that we should just assume that all allegations are the truth and men (or women) should be fired based only on one person's complaint?


Absolutely NOT. The following of a well thought out and very well disseminated harassment policy needs to be followed. ALL of the companies I have worked at have had this and have had no issues with harassment of any kind. The steps are clear and the zero tolerance is clear. Each year every single employee takes the training and completes the understanding evaluation form. There is absolutely NO ROOM for claiming ignorance on either the part of a harassed or harasser about what steps to take or will be taken.



> How would anyone prove or disprove such an allegation? We see this in college settings where a woman reports a man for a sex crime after some drunken sex, then he is basically kicked out of college with no real way to defend himself. Now, with all of the sexual harassment allegations, how do you know what actually happened?
> 
> I have never forced myself on anyone nor have I ever sexual harassed anyone. But, as an employer or supervisor, what happens if a female employee alleges that something happened? The rule these days seems to be that you just assume the complaint is valid.
> 
> How do we address this sticking point?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


The collegiate wick is sticky. A backlash around the rug sweeping for decades of these types of complaints may well be occurring. That said, she didn't say no can no longer be an excuse for consent and recognition that a drunk person cannot give consent is a Good Thing. While I do not believe in pay pack across populations, it is unfortunate but true that just as girls and women have had to protect themselves from sexual violence when considering what to wear, where and with whom to party and what to drink, where to walk... so too do men and boys have to protect themselves from false accusation.


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## katies

Absolutely everything should be investigated. In the cases of Lauer, Keillor, Franken - reading between the lines - they all were. Otherwise, these NEWS organizations would have no credibility of reporting the actual news if they weren't investigators. Incriminating evidence on all of them, I'm sure. 
Other than Franken though, these men are not employed by the federal government but private organizations who can fire them any way they want to. Doubt they'd do that without evidence as they could be sued, in which case these allegations wouldn't be seeing the light of day.
They're guilty.


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## MrsHolland

uhtred said:


> Correlation doesn't imply causation.
> 
> There is endless debate about whether porn encourages sexual assault or acts like an outlet for sexual aggression. Its very difficult to study: cultures where porn is common are going to be different in lots of other ways form those where it is forbidden. Changes in porn laws will likely correlate with other independent social changes.
> 
> Even if data showed that porn users committed more rapes, it might still not indicate any causation.
> 
> There may be a way to study this accurately, but it sounds tricky.


While it is not a study but IMHO a very good indicator: The Melbourne rail netwook removed all advertising on its sites that were in any way misogynistic or exploitative of women's bodies. The result was a significant decrease is sexual assault on trains.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti

NobodySpecial said:


> Absolutely NOT. The following of a well thought out and very well disseminated harassment policy needs to be followed. ALL of the companies I have worked at have had this and have had no issues with harassment of any kind. The steps are clear and the zero tolerance is clear. Each year every single employee takes the training and completes the understanding evaluation form. There is absolutely NO ROOM for claiming ignorance on either the part of a harassed or harasser about what steps to take or will be taken.
> 
> The collegiate wick is sticky. A backlash around the rug sweeping for decades of these types of complaints may well be occurring. That said, she didn't say no can no longer be an excuse for consent and *recognition that a drunk person cannot give consent is a Good Thing. *While I do not believe in pay pack across populations, it is unfortunate but true that just as girls and women have had to protect themselves from sexual violence when considering what to wear, where and with whom to party and what to drink, where to walk... so too do men and boys have to protect themselves from false accusation.


As I find drunkenness to be very unattractive, I would never have sex with a drunk woman. 

That said, this whole concept is fraught with illogic and inconsistency. 

What exactly constitutes "drunk?" At what point do we cross the line from being able to give consent to not being able to give consent? BAC .05? .08? When am I actually drunk? How do we verify? There's a lot of grey area between stone cold sober and passed out on the couch. 

What if both people are drunk and they have sex? Are they both guilty of rape?

What about someone who starts the evening with the intent of 1. getting drunk and 2. getting laid? Having accomplished #1 with intent to proceed to #2, can that person no longer do #2? 

I have been sloppy drunk, unable to walk a straight line or even speak coherently, yet I was fully capable of consenting or not consenting. How dare you take away my agency in deciding my own sexual behavior?

Finally, to see the ultimate example of the silliness of this concept, simply consider that when an intoxicated person chooses to get behind the wheel of an automobile, they may be arrested and punished for DUI/DWI. * While drunk, they are still held accountable for their choice.* How is it that someone can be accountable for such a monumental choice whether or not to put others in danger, but not be accountable for a much lesser choice, which in all likelihood only affects them personally? The illogic of that one is monumental.


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## 269370

TX-SC said:


> This is a great debate and I appreciate all input. As a husband and the father of two teen daughters, this subject is very important to me. I never want any of them to endure this type of behavior.
> 
> A question:
> 
> Is the concensus here that we should just assume that all allegations are the truth and men (or women) should be fired based only on one person's complaint? How would anyone prove or disprove such an allegation? We see this in college settings where a woman reports a man for a sex crime after some drunken sex, then he is basically kicked out of college with no real way to defend himself. Now, with all of the sexual harassment allegations, how do you know what actually happened?
> 
> I have never forced myself on anyone nor have I ever sexual harassed anyone. But, as an employer or supervisor, what happens if a female employee alleges that something happened? The rule these days seems to be that you just assume the complaint is valid.
> 
> How do we address this sticking point?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk




I’m not sure that’s the case: they look at patterns in behaviour/complaints and then investigate. They don’t just believe whatever anyone says (though the rumours themselves can make enough damage in the current climate).


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## uhtred

That is an interesting data point. Were they careful not to make any other changes at the same time?

It may not be quite the same. Most people watch porn, and masturbate for sexual release. Its possible that seeing sexually stimulating posters in a situation where one can't get release has a very different effect. 



MrsHolland said:


> While it is not a study but IMHO a very good indicator: The Melbourne rail netwook removed all advertising on its sites that were in any way misogynistic or exploitative of women's bodies. The result was a significant decrease is sexual assault on trains.


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