# spouses and religiouse devotion



## Thisnotthat

My wife and I have been married 25 years, with two kids, a teen that still lives at home and another off in college. We are both approaching 50.

My wife is very religious and her devotion has increased significantly in the past 10 years or so. Currently she spends easily over half of her time devoted to religion, including prayer, reading scripture, teaching our son, and in service of various forms to her church. Her religion has an overwhelming presence in my life and in my home, and the time that she devotes to it shows no signs of slowing down. She works part time at my insistence, and is taking no steps to increase her employment beyond that. In fact I don’t believe she’d work at all if not for me pushing her in that direction. While I was patient with all of this through most of our marriage, I’m finding it less and less palatable. I’m an agnostic in my belief at best, but it’s not her beliefs or belief system that I have an issue with, it’s her single minded devotion to it over almost everything else (including me) that has become the problem. If I want time with her then it’s a decision between her religious practice and me. I’m essentially competing for time and attention with god, and naturally god always agrees with her (per her)! Inviting her along for a bike ride with our teen (something we all love) introduces a crisis because she’ll “have to re-schedule church meetings, and wont get all her time in at scripture study and what kind of example will that set for our family…” I’ve actually moved out of the master bedroom (clothes and everything) into the spare bedroom just so I’ll have a refuge from it all.

I’m happy for her that she has found a life path that works for her, yet I will not be the one that supports her in that path at the expense of having an actual functional spouse. I’m trying hard to develop a boundary regarding this, but its very difficult to do so. Monks, Nuns, priests and religious pilgrims generally take a vow to remain single, and I can see why. My wife’s first loyalty and her devotion are to God and to her faith, and I am not content to just be her benefactor in those pursuits, yet she has put me in that role now and would remain very satisfied if I just agree and accept that. Naturally her religion is of the mindset that sex is really terrible and should only be done to the one you love; so you can imagine how the romance and intimacy side of things goes. I have developed boundaries about that separately…
Another aspect of her personality is that she tends a bit towards extremes. She has no medium setting, its either all on or completely off, so requests to “just tone it down a little bit”, and “focus on me or us some, also” just go nowhere. She does not seem to be able to manage a middle path. As far as the rest of our lives go, she’s not really a great partner and its hard to find a lot that’s interesting in her at this point (note to religious people, zealots are not terribly interesting or insightful, in case you’re contemplating that path).

What is fair here? I would never say to somebody that they can’t believe a certain way, nor would that do any good. More moderate messages about how she spends her time just don’t seem to penetrate. I can’t seem to find a boundary that is clear. Ultimately everything I come up with seems to rely on my subjective view of how much is too much, and I don’t like that. Yet I’m done competing for time and attention from my spouse over this. I have an excellent life with a great career, friends, and sports and hobbies that I’m passionate about. Yet instead of a wife I’m married to some sort of religious supplicant and expected to be happy about that.

I’d love thoughts and opinions, with the caveat: please don’t quote scripture to me. I have enough of that in my life right now, and it’s just not helpful to me.


----------



## Married but Happy

It sounds like she has abandoned you. There may not be a solution to this short of divorcing her, if you want an actual marriage. Your only hope MAY be to talk to her minister and ask him/her to intervene to save your marriage by talking to her about boundaries and balance.


----------



## Mr.Married

Deleted


----------



## Mr.Married

She already left you .... you should return the favor. I bet she loves to proclaim that moral superiority. Makes me want to puke.


----------



## minimalME

This would be a good article to share with your wife. 

It's written in language she can identify with, and it might help her to see that her God-centered priorities are out of order.

Her devotion to God isn't her problem, but she does seem a little confused.

And I have no clue where 'sex is terrible' comes from. I've been a Christian for a long time, and I've visited many churches. I've yet to hear anyone promoting this agenda. So, there's something else going on inside her. Perhaps she doesn't fully understand her freedom to enjoy you.









Nine Tips for Managing Your Life and Calendar


The phone rang. Lucia picked it up but didn't answer. She gave it to me because she knew two things: It was about work; my job was more important than her.




rickthomas.net


----------



## Diana7

I struggle to work out what religion she has that says sex is really terrible, I am a Christian and God certainly doesn't say that. He is very much for marriage and sex within that marriage. He is against sex outside marriage but not in it.

Other than that its very hard to understand why you married someone with a faith when you dont have one. You began married life unequally yoked and its got worse. Have you tried marriage counselling?

As for your 'zealots' comment, I have known countless Christians but no 'zealots', just really nice interesting people who love God.

Other than that, it sounds as if you yourself have a busy enjoyable life so what is it you really want? A divorce? Another woman?



minimalME said:


> This would be a good article to share with your wife.
> 
> It's written in language she can identify with, and it might help her to see that her God-centered priorities are out of order.
> 
> Her devotion to God isn't her problem, but she does seem a little confused.
> 
> And I have no clue where 'sex is terrible' comes from. I've been a Christian for a long time, and I've visited many churches. I've yet to hear anyone promoting this agenda. So, there's something else going on inside her. Perhaps she doesn't fully understand her freedom to enjoy you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nine Tips for Managing Your Life and Calendar
> 
> 
> The phone rang. Lucia picked it up but didn't answer. She gave it to me because she knew two things: It was about work; my job was more important than her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rickthomas.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 72371


He hasnt actually said she is a Christian just that she is 'religious' whatever that means. I agree though, its not the Christian teaching at all.


----------



## minimalME

You're right! I made an assumption and could be completely off the mark. 😬



Diana7 said:


> He hasnt actually said she is a Christian just that she is 'religious' whatever that means. I agree though, its not the Christian teaching at all.


----------



## Diana7

minimalME said:


> You're right! I made an assumption and could be completely off the mark. 😬


Yes its confusing when people say religious. Its not a word I ever use to describe people.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Thisnotthat said:


> What is fair here? I would never say to somebody that they can’t believe a certain way, nor would that do any good. More moderate messages about how she spends her time just don’t seem to penetrate.


And I would never tell someone they can't enjoy fishing or video games, but when they insistently put either ahead of the marriage, I will remember an appointment that lasts the rest of my life. Which is what I think you should do, as others have said.


----------



## Cletus

Your wife is having an affair.


----------



## Mr.Married

Cletus said:


> Your wife is having an affair.


Your serious or joking ?


----------



## SpinyNorman

Diana7 said:


> Yes its confusing when people say *religious*. Its not a word I ever use to describe people.


I take "religious" to mean "involved with a religion". In this case, the degree of her involvement was the issue. Unfortunately, if OS had told us which religion, I suspect the thread would have devolved into people's opinions of that religion.


----------



## Diana7

SpinyNorman said:


> I take "religious" to mean "involved with a religion". In this case, the degree of her involvement was the issue. Unfortunately, if OS had told us which religion, I suspect the thread would have devolved into people's opinions of that religion.


I dont think so, which religion isnt the issues for him.


----------



## Diana7

Cletus said:


> Your wife is having an affair.


She is in love with God it seems.


----------



## Nailhead

Your wife is not what I call "well rounded". Not that is a bad thing, however, your W needs to expand her world. God wants you in W world. Perhaps your W needs to find that in the scriptures. It's there!


----------



## Nailhead

You know what I would do? Ask your W to sit with you. Start a search in the Bible for a W role as designed by God. Discuss each and then ask your W if she feels she fulfills what God has designed.

What Is God's Design And Calling For You As A Wife?


----------



## Cletus

Mr.Married said:


> Your serious or joking ?


Speaking metaphorically.

Although I might amend it to say that OP is in an open marriage, since there is nothing clandestine happening here. But there is very much a third party in the relationship whose purported wants take priority over those of her flesh and blood husband.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Diana7 said:


> I dont think so, which religion isnt the issues for him.


I don't think which religion is an issue for him, which is why he left it out, but it may well have gotten threadjacked into an argument about that religion.


----------



## Thisnotthat

Thank you all for the feedback and perspective. I’m honestly impressed and grateful for the depth of insight offered here.

Norman and Diana you are correct that I specifically did not list her denomination because it’s really not that important in my mind, except that it does tend to support and encourage excessive devotion as somehow being a virtuous thing. It is a Christian denomination but its not as though I have another church/synagogue/mosque that I go to that’s in competition with hers, nor did I want to frame up the situation like that. I am a very happy unbeliever and I’m not interested in changing anybody’s views.

Minimal and Diana, thanks for your views on sex and sexuality in the context of Christianity. It helps to see that many belief systems have an accepting and embracing view of it. Hers would not be one of those, however. Further, she (and her mother) seem to have adopted a more harsh view; and its one that seems to suggest that any sign of interest in sex and affection, especially by women is worldly and not something that “virtuous women” would do. Gag! On that front, I’ve set a very clear boundary that sex is a fundamental aspect of a marriage for me, and is something that is offered and reciprocated freely and frequently, and that’s a minimum standard for me. I’ve been clear and upfront with that lately and I refuse to embrace the guilt that she seems to want to associate with it. I’ve also made clear that we can discuss the details, the mechanics and so on, but I absolutely refuse to be in a sexless, affectionless relationship. I’ve not set any deadlines or made innuendos, but will make decisions about this when I’m ready to, including whether or not to end our relationship.

Norman you said something important that really helped me. It would be easy if the thing she was consumed with were a video game or booze or something like that, but really anything that takes your partner away from you and makes them secondary is unacceptable and that’s what I need to focus on. Spirituality, faith, devotion, those are all good things, some of the best things, really. However, even good things taken to excess are a problem. Its her excess that’s the problem, NOT her spirituality, faith or devotion.

One really good thing that’s happened for me is moving into my own room! I know this seems counterintuitive so bear with me… I come from a background with a lot of physical and emotional abuse (not the pop culture kind, but the “going to the ER to get broken bones fixed and lying to nice social workers and teachers”, kind) and so like many who have lived through such things, I tend to be overly attuned to my environment and the people in it. I’ve had lots of help and treatment, but that aspect just never goes away. My wife, for her part brings a lot of chaos with her wherever she goes, and has a tendency to try and displace that onto others. Unfortunately, because of that I don’t feel like I’ve had many thoughts to myself for 25 years, and in fact it often feels like the purpose of my existence has been to just wait in attendance on my wife. Wait for her to share a random thought, question, grocery list, her to start a fight, make a criticism I need to respond to, wait for her to maybe want sex…. The room I moved into is all about me. The books on the shelf are just the ones that have meaning to me, same with the pictures, clothes, thoughts… Its been a refuge for me and something I have no intention of giving up. When I’m there I don’t feel like I’m just waiting in attendance on her, and in fact I could care less about what she’s doing or what she needs or whatever. I sleep so well, and it occurred to me this morning that I’ve actually been having dreams again when I sleep. I cant remember the last time I got good enough sleep to actually have and remember a dream in the morning. All of this has been a startling revelation to me, and I’m not sure how to integrate it into the rest of my life. In any case, my room is here to stay, still figuring the rest out, including her.

Diana, you asked what it is I want. Even with all the criticism I’ve leveled here, I still really like the person my wife is, and I always have. I’m not the type to jump from woman to woman, and I’m also not one to give up easily, even when maybe I should. I just like her. Some part of me thinks that I could still have that really great person that I fell for. The one that when she’s not being crazy church lady has a laugh that melts me. The one that fell asleep in the passenger seat of my car on the first date we had. The one that I worked so hard for, the one that I built a life around. That’s not easy for me to let go of, even if maybe I should.

Apologies for writing a book, but thank you all for the feedback.


----------



## Crushedandconfused

Wow. It’s 6am and I’ve been laying here since 3 trying to sleep. Grabbed my phone and this was on top. Literally EVERYTHING you so clearly out lined is where I am. Except instead of religion it has been several things but each have put me in 2nd place. From your comment about not giving up easily, to her not wanting to work etc, my wife was 110% focused on her parents since the day my son (29 years ago) was born. With there often being 40-60 phone calls a day. Every day. Some 1 min long, but all ending with “I’ll call you later” I tried so very hard to provide enough for five of us and was able to provide a very comfortable life that she grew to take advantage of to a point of acting entitled. She would get shopping coupons from her mom to upscale stores and went on a “Coach” rampage for years. I didn’t know until I found a yellow store credit that had over 3000 of credit on it. I started looking through the closet and found thousands in purses, shoes, belts, watches. You name it. She could have opened a store. I could go on but there is no need except to tell you in the 30 years of marriage she would not once sit down to go over finances. From Coach it went to mine Kors to several affairs that I discovered. I’ve always, like your self, helped with the household and was very involved with our children. I use the word entitled as about 8 years ago I started saving texts we sent. Copies of marriage ideas written by experts I would read and send. We went to counciling but she refused to do any assignment’s and would show up late and as you said be controlling of the situation by talking over us saying traffic was terrible etc. we had find friends and the day we had a councilor meeting set at 4 I looked to see if she was on her way at 3:50. She was at a Jewellery store about 20-30 min away. I went in at 4 and again looked and she was still there. At 4:25 she burst in happy and enthused and apologized for being late but said traffic was terrible. I didn’t call her out in front of the councilor, to the next week I was there alone and I did tell him. Like you said she has her great moments and we have had a lot of great memories over the 30 years, but it got to a point where after her folks passed, she now uses her phone as the replacement. I’ll ask her to put it away so we can just be together and I get nothing but excuses. “I can be on my phone and listen to you” “what’s so important I need to put it down?” There is always something. There is no longer sex. No longer any effort to reciprocate little acts of kindness. She moved into an apt and I give her 2500 a month. Rent is 1400. She caught covid and like a dumb a$$ I went over to make her food. As I was headed that way she called to ask me to stop and get some cat litter and a few other things. Trying to be kind, I did. I don’t expect it, but risking my health to go over there 4 days in a row, I thought a card or some kind of gesture of appreciation would have occurred. She’s thoughtful to most others. We both are. But I’m no longer important to her unless she needs something. When she lived here she s showed up one day with a dog. No discussion. Said it was a stray. It was wild and killed her rabbit and bird. She made me despise of the dead animals. She returned the dog and a few weeks later came home with a puppy. No discussion. She didn’t potty train it. Just played with it. We have tile everywhere so she got a mop. She expected me to mop half the time. I could go on. And on. Like you I didn’t want to give up. She filed for divorce but had no idea what was in the papers. She said she needed space, living in the in law suite was not enough. She left both dogs and then went and got herself another one. I’m at the point where at 61 I really did not want to start over. I retired with a steady income that was very comfortable. Even as I had to spend several thousand a month helping my kids out (covid job losses) but when she moved out my attorney suggested I start to pay her some aid. So 2500 a month and she takes 3100 a month out of savings each month. It will be gone in a year (and I have no idea how she can spend that) as I’m still covering cell, tolls, healthcare etc. she has rent. Electric. Internet and gas along with nails and hair. About 2000. I guess I’m mentioning this to let you know you’re not alone and where I’m at sounds like about 5 years beyond you. I’m still confused and was supposed to pay for a mediator but has been putting it off. We went to the beach. I went to care for her. And we got along great. Almost like when we dated. I was cleaning up a cloud folder I keep everything in and after reading your story I went back. I’ve asked for her help to get finances and taxes straight. Nope. For 8 or more years. It is a very hard decision to make as I still find her very sexy and appealing and she makes any gathering fun. But I realize, like you said, it is always chaotic and I don’t know what other words to use, but “fake” would cover it. I’m not glad you’re going through this but wanted you to know there is someone out there that has and is going through a VERY similar situation. I don’t give up easily, but I’ve come to the conclusion I can’t change her sense of entitlement, selfishness and being blamed for everything. Even the affairs. I’m sorry you’re dealing with it, it hurts. Hard to make friends with the covid and she and the kids have been my friend for the past 30 years. I guess I’ll send the money to the lawyer tomorrow as there is really nothing left I can try. Sorry for the book. Believe me this is the short version.... I wish you the very best. At least you have found hobbies (I’ve tried) and more important friends. Grow them. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Diana7

Thisnotthat said:


> Thank you all for the feedback and perspective. I’m honestly impressed and grateful for the depth of insight offered here.
> 
> Norman and Diana you are correct that I specifically did not list her denomination because it’s really not that important in my mind, except that it does tend to support and encourage excessive devotion as somehow being a virtuous thing. It is a Christian denomination but its not as though I have another church/synagogue/mosque that I go to that’s in competition with hers, nor did I want to frame up the situation like that. I am a very happy unbeliever and I’m not interested in changing anybody’s views.
> 
> Minimal and Diana, thanks for your views on sex and sexuality in the context of Christianity. It helps to see that many belief systems have an accepting and embracing view of it. Hers would not be one of those, however. Further, she (and her mother) seem to have adopted a more harsh view; and its one that seems to suggest that any sign of interest in sex and affection, especially by women is worldly and not something that “virtuous women” would do. Gag! On that front, I’ve set a very clear boundary that sex is a fundamental aspect of a marriage for me, and is something that is offered and reciprocated freely and frequently, and that’s a minimum standard for me. I’ve been clear and upfront with that lately and I refuse to embrace the guilt that she seems to want to associate with it. I’ve also made clear that we can discuss the details, the mechanics and so on, but I absolutely refuse to be in a sexless, affectionless relationship. I’ve not set any deadlines or made innuendos, but will make decisions about this when I’m ready to, including whether or not to end our relationship.
> 
> Norman you said something important that really helped me. It would be easy if the thing she was consumed with were a video game or booze or something like that, but really anything that takes your partner away from you and makes them secondary is unacceptable and that’s what I need to focus on. Spirituality, faith, devotion, those are all good things, some of the best things, really. However, even good things taken to excess are a problem. Its her excess that’s the problem, NOT her spirituality, faith or devotion.
> 
> One really good thing that’s happened for me is moving into my own room! I know this seems counterintuitive so bear with me… I come from a background with a lot of physical and emotional abuse (not the pop culture kind, but the “going to the ER to get broken bones fixed and lying to nice social workers and teachers”, kind) and so like many who have lived through such things, I tend to be overly attuned to my environment and the people in it. I’ve had lots of help and treatment, but that aspect just never goes away. My wife, for her part brings a lot of chaos with her wherever she goes, and has a tendency to try and displace that onto others. Unfortunately, because of that I don’t feel like I’ve had many thoughts to myself for 25 years, and in fact it often feels like the purpose of my existence has been to just wait in attendance on my wife. Wait for her to share a random thought, question, grocery list, her to start a fight, make a criticism I need to respond to, wait for her to maybe want sex…. The room I moved into is all about me. The books on the shelf are just the ones that have meaning to me, same with the pictures, clothes, thoughts… Its been a refuge for me and something I have no intention of giving up. When I’m there I don’t feel like I’m just waiting in attendance on her, and in fact I could care less about what she’s doing or what she needs or whatever. I sleep so well, and it occurred to me this morning that I’ve actually been having dreams again when I sleep. I cant remember the last time I got good enough sleep to actually have and remember a dream in the morning. All of this has been a startling revelation to me, and I’m not sure how to integrate it into the rest of my life. In any case, my room is here to stay, still figuring the rest out, including her.
> 
> Diana, you asked what it is I want. Even with all the criticism I’ve leveled here, I still really like the person my wife is, and I always have. I’m not the type to jump from woman to woman, and I’m also not one to give up easily, even when maybe I should. I just like her. Some part of me thinks that I could still have that really great person that I fell for. The one that when she’s not being crazy church lady has a laugh that melts me. The one that fell asleep in the passenger seat of my car on the first date we had. The one that I worked so hard for, the one that I built a life around. That’s not easy for me to let go of, even if maybe I should.
> 
> Apologies for writing a book, but thank you all for the feedback.


I wonder if your wife knows that there is a whole book in the Bible on love and sex. Its called Song of Songs and is very erotic. So whichever denomination she belongs to, they follow the same Bible but are clearly ignoring this book. The Bible also says that we are not to deprive each other of sex. 
You mentioned her mum, could she be a big influence on her in this?

The room sounds nice, whatever happens between you its clearly a positive place for you. 

As a Christian myself your problem makes me sad. The way she is acting isnt what God would want. He is 100% for marriage and family.


----------



## Divinely Favored

Crushedandconfused said:


> Wow. It’s 6am and I’ve been laying here since 3 trying to sleep. Grabbed my phone and this was on top. Literally EVERYTHING you so clearly out lined is where I am. Except instead of religion it has been several things but each have put me in 2nd place. From your comment about not giving up easily, to her not wanting to work etc, my wife was 110% focused on her parents since the day my son (29 years ago) was born. With there often being 40-60 phone calls a day. Every day. Some 1 min long, but all ending with “I’ll call you later” I tried so very hard to provide enough for five of us and was able to provide a very comfortable life that she grew to take advantage of to a point of acting entitled. She would get shopping coupons from her mom to upscale stores and went on a “Coach” rampage for years. I didn’t know until I found a yellow store credit that had over 3000 of credit on it. I started looking through the closet and found thousands in purses, shoes, belts, watches. You name it. She could have opened a store. I could go on but there is no need except to tell you in the 30 years of marriage she would not once sit down to go over finances. From Coach it went to mine Kors to several affairs that I discovered. I’ve always, like your self, helped with the household and was very involved with our children. I use the word entitled as about 8 years ago I started saving texts we sent. Copies of marriage ideas written by experts I would read and send. We went to counciling but she refused to do any assignment’s and would show up late and as you said be controlling of the situation by talking over us saying traffic was terrible etc. we had find friends and the day we had a councilor meeting set at 4 I looked to see if she was on her way at 3:50. She was at a Jewellery store about 20-30 min away. I went in at 4 and again looked and she was still there. At 4:25 she burst in happy and enthused and apologized for being late but said traffic was terrible. I didn’t call her out in front of the councilor, to the next week I was there alone and I did tell him. Like you said she has her great moments and we have had a lot of great memories over the 30 years, but it got to a point where after her folks passed, she now uses her phone as the replacement. I’ll ask her to put it away so we can just be together and I get nothing but excuses. “I can be on my phone and listen to you” “what’s so important I need to put it down?” There is always something. There is no longer sex. No longer any effort to reciprocate little acts of kindness. She moved into an apt and I give her 2500 a month. Rent is 1400. She caught covid and like a dumb a$$ I went over to make her food. As I was headed that way she called to ask me to stop and get some cat litter and a few other things. Trying to be kind, I did. I don’t expect it, but risking my health to go over there 4 days in a row, I thought a card or some kind of gesture of appreciation would have occurred. She’s thoughtful to most others. We both are. But I’m no longer important to her unless she needs something. When she lived here she s showed up one day with a dog. No discussion. Said it was a stray. It was wild and killed her rabbit and bird. She made me despise of the dead animals. She returned the dog and a few weeks later came home with a puppy. No discussion. She didn’t potty train it. Just played with it. We have tile everywhere so she got a mop. She expected me to mop half the time. I could go on. And on. Like you I didn’t want to give up. She filed for divorce but had no idea what was in the papers. She said she needed space, living in the in law suite was not enough. She left both dogs and then went and got herself another one. I’m at the point where at 61 I really did not want to start over. I retired with a steady income that was very comfortable. Even as I had to spend several thousand a month helping my kids out (covid job losses) but when she moved out my attorney suggested I start to pay her some aid. So 2500 a month and she takes 3100 a month out of savings each month. It will be gone in a year (and I have no idea how she can spend that) as I’m still covering cell, tolls, healthcare etc. she has rent. Electric. Internet and gas along with nails and hair. About 2000. I guess I’m mentioning this to let you know you’re not alone and where I’m at sounds like about 5 years beyond you. I’m still confused and was supposed to pay for a mediator but has been putting it off. We went to the beach. I went to care for her. And we got along great. Almost like when we dated. I was cleaning up a cloud folder I keep everything in and after reading your story I went back. I’ve asked for her help to get finances and taxes straight. Nope. For 8 or more years. It is a very hard decision to make as I still find her very sexy and appealing and she makes any gathering fun. But I realize, like you said, it is always chaotic and I don’t know what other words to use, but “fake” would cover it. I’m not glad you’re going through this but wanted you to know there is someone out there that has and is going through a VERY similar situation. I don’t give up easily, but I’ve come to the conclusion I can’t change her sense of entitlement, selfishness and being blamed for everything. Even the affairs. I’m sorry you’re dealing with it, it hurts. Hard to make friends with the covid and she and the kids have been my friend for the past 30 years. I guess I’ll send the money to the lawyer tomorrow as there is really nothing left I can try. Sorry for the book. Believe me this is the short version.... I wish you the very best. At least you have found hobbies (I’ve tried) and more important friends. Grow them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


She is still in an affair i bet you. Why have you not taken the money out of savings and moved it to a seperate account. Go back and see how much she has removed and take that out. She needs money to entertain men in her love shack you are paying for. Yoy can find a decent faithful lady to spend time with and quit being a martyr.


----------



## Divinely Favored

1 Corinthians 7:5, ESV: "Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

Paul continues to reveal God's will about sex within a Christian marriage. He has written that one purpose of marriage is for mutual, unselfish sex to overcome the temptation to participate in sexual immorality outside of marriage.

To that end, both husbands and wives have an obligation to the other, as part of their mutual commitment, to be sexually available to each other. The connection between man and woman in a Christian marriage is pictured as being so close and intimate that neither has the authority over his or her own body in this area. That authority belongs to the spouse. This verse phrases this concept as a command, not a suggestion.

Given this, i believe withholding sex from your spouse who you took a marriage oath with, is itself sexually immoral. And that in itself makes it grounds for a Biblical divorce. Sexual immorality is not just physical adultry in terms of grounds for Biblical divorce. Too many people just read on the surface and jump to a conclusion and do not dig into the word. Study the original Greek.


----------



## SpinyNorman

Thisnotthat said:


> I’d love thoughts and opinions, with the caveat: please don’t quote scripture to me.





Divinely Favored said:


> 1 Corinthians 7:5, ESV: "Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, t


I believe you mean well, but the person likely to be persuaded by scripture isn't reading this.

It's also why I thought TS was wise to initially not mention what religion it was. So many people are primed to debate any particular religion that they will make any conversation about that.


----------



## Diana7

SpinyNorman said:


> I believe you mean well, but the person likely to be persuaded by scripture isn't reading this.
> 
> It's also why I thought TS was wise to initially not mention what religion it was. So many people are primed to debate any particular religion that they will make any conversation about that.


DF like me maybe thinks she is probably one of the extreme demoninations of Christianity. I suspect she is a strict RC or something along the lines of an amish type church. Hence he put the verses to show that she should be doing what it says if she follows the Bible. .


----------



## Thisnotthat

I’ve gotten some clarity over the issues in my relationship, and I appreciate the thoughts and feedback.

A couple things I’ve realized. One, my wife can be really contemptuous and disrespectful towards me. She’s also got some sort of issue with people in authority or who have power or influence over her life, or even hold expectations for her. This includes people at her work. She does seem to justify her beliefs and actions on moral and religious grounds (god always agrees with her, naturally). Next, I’m absolutely done with her displays of disrespect for me! That’s just over and in the past. As I’ve said, I have a terrific life and if she wants to spend time with me and be a part of the future that I’m building, she’ll need to find a way to drop the contempt. I am inflexible on that point.

Next, I will not compete with her religion. I mentioned that we have separate rooms now, and last night I went in to say goodnight, and was looking forward to a few minutes with her at the end of the day. As I sat on the edge of the bed, she had a devotional magazine on her lap. She would not set it aside or focus on me or really do anything to show some interest in any sort of emotional affection or connection. The devotional just sat there, a clear barrier between us that she refuses to disassemble. I affectionately wished her a good night and went to bed.

I’m not giving up on having a deep and affectionate marriage in the future, whether or not it’s with her remains to be seen. For now, I’m working to uncover and understand my role in the problems in this one. I’ll make decisions about the future when I’m ready.


----------



## Diana7

Thisnotthat said:


> I’ve gotten some clarity over the issues in my relationship, and I appreciate the thoughts and feedback.
> 
> A couple things I’ve realized. One, my wife can be really contemptuous and disrespectful towards me. She’s also got some sort of issue with people in authority or who have power or influence over her life, or even hold expectations for her. This includes people at her work. She does seem to justify her beliefs and actions on moral and religious grounds (god always agrees with her, naturally). Next, I’m absolutely done with her displays of disrespect for me! That’s just over and in the past. As I’ve said, I have a terrific life and if she wants to spend time with me and be a part of the future that I’m building, she’ll need to find a way to drop the contempt. I am inflexible on that point.
> 
> Next, I will not compete with her religion. I mentioned that we have separate rooms now, and last night I went in to say goodnight, and was looking forward to a few minutes with her at the end of the day. As I sat on the edge of the bed, she had a devotional magazine on her lap. She would not set it aside or focus on me or really do anything to show some interest in any sort of emotional affection or connection. The devotional just sat there, a clear barrier between us that she refuses to disassemble. I affectionately wished her a good night and went to bed.
> 
> I’m not giving up on having a deep and affectionate marriage in the future, whether or not it’s with her remains to be seen. For now, I’m working to uncover and understand my role in the problems in this one. I’ll make decisions about the future when I’m ready.


Thats interesting because one of the clear instuctions in the Bible for a wife, is this, 'Wives repect your husbands, husbands love your wives'. Respect is very important for a man and love for a woman. It weird that she seems to be so religious, but is ignoring God on so many things. I think she is religious as opposed to a Christian and there can be a big difference between the two. You can be religious/pious without even knowing God.


----------



## ishtov

One of the issues any non-believing person has when in a relationship with a person of faith is that the person of faith has very little room for any kind of compromise. Everything is absolute, all opinions are final.
This is what you are facing, and it's not an easy thing at all.
-
You need to decide if staying with your W, in spite of the issues her faith causes, is something you are willing to do. You need to understand that it's a sacrifice for you - you need to consciously make that decision and learn to live with it. (I too face something like this, I will be posting on a similar topic soon). Do you love her AS SHE IS? Is living with her, in the current situation, enough for you and makes you happy? Knowing that all compromise will be on your side - are you good with this? It may very well be yes. Seems from your later posts that this is a possibility. But some of her actions are NOT as a result of her faith (e.g. her disrespect) but possibly as a result of a superiority feeling she has because she does and you do not, believe. So the root cause is still there.
-
That said, specifically, she does seem to be a bit extreme in the _practice _of her faith. You might want to go to her spiritual leader and get advice. He/she will not be willing to talk to you about your wife of course, but it can be illuminating for you to get perspective and better understand if her actions are "normal" or that she might actually need some help and she has some deeper issue that her actions are possible addressing. At the very least, you will understand her better and where she is coming from.


----------



## Diana7

ishtov said:


> One of the issues any non-believing person has when in a relationship with a person of faith is that the person of faith has very little room for any kind of compromise. Everything is absolute, all opinions are final.
> This is what you are facing, and it's not an easy thing at all.
> -
> You need to decide if staying with your W, in spite of the issues her faith causes, is something you are willing to do. You need to understand that it's a sacrifice for you - you need to consciously make that decision and learn to live with it. (I too face something like this, I will be posting on a similar topic soon). Do you love her AS SHE IS? Is living with her, in the current situation, enough for you and makes you happy? Knowing that all compromise will be on your side - are you good with this? It may very well be yes. Seems from your later posts that this is a possibility. But some of her actions are NOT as a result of her faith (e.g. her disrespect) but possibly as a result of a superiority feeling she has because she does and you do not, believe. So the root cause is still there.
> -
> That said, specifically, she does seem to be a bit extreme in the _practice _of her faith. You might want to go to her spiritual leader and get advice. He/she will not be willing to talk to you about your wife of course, but it can be illuminating for you to get perspective and better understand if her actions are "normal" or that she might actually need some help and she has some deeper issue that her actions are possible addressing. At the very least, you will understand her better and where she is coming from.


There is room for compromise in many things, but not on what we believe. I think the OP's wife is making many mistakes in her relationship with her husband and as you say in the practise of her faith, but of course she wont give up her basic faith nor should she. God is so wise when He says we should marry a person who shares out faith.


----------



## TJW

Crushedandconfused said:


> I’m no longer important to her unless she needs something.


I've got news....you were NEVER important to her unless she wanted something. I'm not going to glorify what she has done by calling it "need".

And, you're right, there's nothing else you can do but cut her off before she squanders you into poverty.


----------



## Thisnotthat

ishtov said:


> You need to decide if staying with your W, in spite of the issues her faith causes, is something you are willing to do. You need to understand that it's a sacrifice for you - you need to consciously make that decision and learn to live with it. (I too face something like this, I will be posting on a similar topic soon). Do you love her AS SHE IS? Is living with her, in the current situation, enough for you and makes you happy? Knowing that all compromise will be on your side - are you good with this? It may very well be yes. Seems from your later posts that this is a possibility. But some of her actions are NOT as a result of her faith (e.g. her disrespect) but possibly as a result of a superiority feeling she has because she does and you do not, believe. So the root cause is still there.


What you say here is pretty spot on, and I keep ruminating over this. I've been able to bridge the gap for 25 years by just sort of accepting that this is the way things are and that our lives are good in so many ways. However, I just can't seem to do that anymore. My anger and frustration have built up, and it appears in retrospect that perhaps all I was doing was compartmentalizing and stuffing things down. You point out that there is a conscious decision to be made (instead of what I've been doing) and I agree. Its just not an easy one.

The other issue is as you alluded to. She doesn't seem to see anything I say as something needing compromise and conversation, so much as "needing a wayward sheep to return to the flock." That seems to be her worldview and she is unable or unwilling to get to the place where she see's me as a human and a partner in a relationship with a unique set of views, needs and issues seeking understanding and compromise. I really think that she see's compromise on just about anything as a capitulation, as loosing some fundamental part of herself. I suppose that if you believe that you hold all of the truth and understanding of human existence and purpose then any other perspective must be somehow less than, and why would you be open to considering it? This is why I say she's religious instead of spiritual or faithful or anything else. Its just this ugly fundamentalism and I can't stand it anymore. Is that worth disassembling my family and the life that I've built over? Is there some way I can find peace with some of this or am I just compartmentalizing again? Should I try to find acceptance for somebody who does not even meet my most basic needs for a romantic partner? 

Early on in our marriage she sought counseling but it only lasted three sessions. As soon as they started delving into family of origin issues she proclaimed that a bad spirit or something like that got involved in the process, counselor was bad, putting bad thoughts in her mind, so on and so forth. That ended abruptly and I don't even bring it up anymore. Again, if you believe that you hold all of the truth and understanding of human existence and purpose, then looking to anybody for help must feel like a capitulation. Such messed up thinking.

Feeling doomed, obviously. I'll just go play strip poker with Satan for awhile


----------



## ishtov

A fundamentalist (and that is what your wife seems to be) is very hard to be with if you are not. What you describe, is exactly what a religious fundamentalist has, namely a conviction that they hold 100% of the truth; anyone not holding the same conviction is wrong, and they need to correct that. She literally can't compromise on any of her values or life decisions, any more than you could go out and shoot someone. Not so much as it would be a "capitulation, as loosing some fundamental part of herself ", just simply something that is inconceivable.

I know many couples who are widely apart in their beliefs, and it's always hard - where to send the kids for education, how to celebrate holidays, what dietary laws to keep, etc. Almost always, the spouse with the stringent belief "wins", because they cannot compromise. But this only works when there is an a-priory understanding and a lot of love and respect and an understanding of the sacrifices of the non-believer. I have to admit, that it seems to me from your description that her fundamentalism does not include "Between a man and his friend", from the way she treats you. And it does not seem that will change soon. I think your choices are limited. As hard as it is to say that.


----------



## Thisnotthat

I can't take exception to anything that you wrote, Ishtov, and thanks for your thoughts.

I'm running into the same historical difficulty when I push for change in my relationship, too. My wife seems to revert to a sense of magical thinking. As I said, she does not see boundaries (set by me) as something to respect or adhere to, but rather, as an indicator that a malevolent supernatural force is at work on me, that just needs to be overcome by spiritual conformity on my part, and of course a redoubling of spiritual dedication on hers. My dreams, my ambitions are not necessarily things to be appreciated and supported except to the extent that they coincide with those of her church. Rather, in her mind they are things that I should let go of and abandoned as the misguided thoughts of a "worldly man". Its a complete cluster... I have normal human needs, wants, hopes, dreams, desires.... Nothing surprising about any of that, really. Yet my biggest task seems to be to remind myself that those things are perfectly normal, even good; permissible! 

I'm having a bit of a pity party right now. I'll move past it.

The other thing that comes up when she tries to solve problems by redoubling her religious efforts (in a belief that god will reward her faithfulness) is that she devotes even more of her time to her faith pursuits and less/no time to actually engaging with me to try and understand perspectives. Naturally I get blamed for the distance that grows ever larger as I simply pull away and go live my own life! I used to think that this was a form of her trying to punish me, but now I see it more as her simply abdicating the messy work of relationships, and instead doubling down on efforts at some sort of a divine intervention. Lately she's engaged her family in the issue, so no doubt many prayers are being sent skyward on my behalf, when really, I just need her to start engaging with me as a human - fallen though I may be.

Its such a weird problem to have.


----------



## jlg07

Have you had a meeting with her pastor, or would that be worthless?


----------



## Thisnotthat

An update, should anybody be interested.

One of the features of my wife's religion is not just that couples tend to marry within the faith, but that in the "successful" marriages that I've seen, both partners seem to place the needs and demands of the religion above or at least equal to those of the other partner. From a worldly perspective, you'd think of it almost as a polyamorouse relationship, where they both understand implicitly that there is this other entity that's a fundamental part of the relationship, complete with its own set of morals, needs, expectations and demands for time and fidelity. Very strange, but that's the best way I can describe it right now. 

As to the suggestions that I go and speak to her ecclesiastical leaders, understand that they generally hold the same perspective as any other "successful" adherent. So viewed from that perspective, the problem is not that one spouse is excessively devout, and perhaps neglecting the ordinary needs of the other because of said devotion; that's the norm. the problem lies completely with the unbeliever. That would be me. 

In real terms, I think that much of the conflict my wife has in life is trying to balance her love and devotion to her religion with her devotion to me: this real world guy with needs and wants and all these dang imperfections. I don't fit the religious/polyamorouse mold very well, and I want things like time and attention and affection and I really don't understand why somebody would neglect a real flesh and bones human for any of that. 

What I've done is to surrender. I've withdrawn from the triad and I'm living my life. Her religion wins! I'm out of the competition. I have surrendered any claim on my spouse, her time, her affection, her body, her love. She is free to pursue her first and true passion without anything from me. She can pray for as long as she wants to. She can study her scriptures and church literature for as many hours of the day as she can fit. She can devote as much time as she chooses to volunteering and ministering and whatever else she chooses to do. Its really hard to say all of that, and its taken me awhile to understand that I'm not, nor will I ever be her first love. This must be what its like when a spouse has an affair with an old flame (or anybody, really). You just have to come to terms with the painful fact that they chose something else over you. You have to surrender to the grief that comes from that. The sense of abandonment, betrayal. I'm making this very intellectual, but god it hurts! If her religion had nuns, I'd be tearfully waving goodbye across a monastery wall, right now.

The good things: I have a great life. I have work that is compelling and that I'm good at. I'm focusing on that right now and I'm working really hard. I love my work. I have great kids and I continue to communicate openly with them and am making sure I let them know who I am and the good things that I stand for in life. Some may see me as less than because I don't adhere to a strict faith/belief system with all those absolutes, but I lack nothing in my morals or my passion for life! I have great friends and wonderful hobbies. I enjoy a variety of sports and do them with some wonderful people. those relationships are deep and meaningful and have buoyed me. A life spent outdoors in the company of good friends is a life well lived, and I'll continue to live mine that way. 

I can't say exactly what the future holds. I'll make decisions about that when I'm ready to. I haven't given up on love or companionship or passion or anything like that, but I must understand and own my role in these things, so along with my joy and dedication to my life comes continued work and introspection. More on the details and events behind all of this later.


----------



## jlg07

So basically, you are ok with having a room mate (maybe NOT even that since it seems like she isn't around doing much of anything with you) existence going forward?

Just curious -- WHY are you not considering at least separating if not D? 
Also, have you TOLD her you are done -- that she is free to do what she wants with her religion, but that YOU are going to live a completely separate life from her?


----------



## Diana7

Is she a JW?


----------



## Cletus

Thisnotthat said:


> I can't say exactly what the future holds. I'll make decisions about that when I'm ready to. I haven't given up on love or companionship or passion or anything like that, but I must understand and own my role in these things, so along with my joy and dedication to my life comes continued work and introspection. More on the details and events behind all of this later.


With a teen at home, you're not too many years from being empty nesters. That's when I would expect your relationship to fall apart from this, if it is going to. 

Seems right now that she doesn't need you as a romantic partner, and you're quickly falling into the same mindset. Does your wife understand where this is headed? Have you spelled out for her a future where your only bond is a shared address? And if that really is the case, are you OK with that future? Because if you are not, the time to start considering ending it is probably now, not later. Once your last child exits, there are no other casualties here. You'll be a fully willing partner in a loveless marriage, and we will no longer be able to raise much sympathy for your position.


----------



## Thisnotthat

Thank you all for the kind and compassionate insights. 

Diana, she is not a JW, and I think I'd have very little patience with any of that. I'm not going into the specifics of her religion because I don't think its relevant, and it will just derail the discussion, so forgive me if I'm being opaque about that. 

I've figured out recently that she has a really poorly defined sense of self. I'm not sure what term a psychologist would use for this, but she has a really fragile sense of herself as a person. It goes deeper than just not knowing what she wants do do at any given moment or having a concept for the future, but rather that she's missing the idea of herself as a complete self actuating human. Being around her can sometimes be exhausting because she's constantly scanning the people around her for confirmation of who/what she is, too. It all goes fine so long as the circumstances are consistent with that perception of herself, but when anything goes against that she suddenly falls apart for awhile. Naturally I bear the brunt of that. An example from years ago when the kids were younger. We were staying at a hotel and my daughter and I were playing happily in the pool. My wife came down to join us and noticed that there were two younger women in two piece swim suits; one of whom was larger chested. She immediately went from warm and happy (vacation mode) to icy and accusatory. Mind you my daughter and I were just doing our own thing and I really had not noticed any of this, nor would I really have found the other bathers as attractive in any case (just not my thing) but she was angry with me about that for several days after. Its as though the idea that a woman could choose to dress differently than she would, or just even have different physical features than she does is a massive affront to her sense of self. Somehow I'm supposed to either fix that so it doesn't happen, or at least be as upset by it as she is.



jlg07 said:


> ust curious -- WHY are you not considering at least separating if not D?
> Also, have you TOLD her you are done -- that she is free to do what she wants with her religion, but that YOU are going to live a completely separate life from her?


I have had this conversation with her. I've explained that at this point she doesn't meet even my basic needs in our relationship. I've explained that based on how she spends her time and organizes her life, I do understand that her first passion and priority is her religion. That I wish her well in that. I've explained that I will not stay in a relationship that does not include sex and passion and time, and that while I have not made a decision just yet, I'll do so when I'm ready to. I was very clear and unambiguous about that. I mention this point because I'm not always as clear as I intend to be, but I was in this instance. She did not have a response or try to quarrel with me or launch into the "but you do..." scenarios, which for her is strange. I think she was a bit stunned. 



Cletus said:


> With a teen at home, you're not too many years from being empty nesters. That's when I would expect your relationship to fall apart from this, if it is going to.
> 
> Seems right now that she doesn't need you as a romantic partner, and you're quickly falling into the same mindset. Does your wife understand where this is headed? Have you spelled out for her a future where your only bond is a shared address? And if that really is the case, are you OK with that future? Because if you are not, the time to start considering ending it is probably now, not later. Once your last child exits, there are no other casualties here. You'll be a fully willing partner in a loveless marriage, and we will no longer be able to raise much sympathy for your position.


This is a really fair point, Cletus. Its also at the forefront of my mind lately. I have so many plans for the future, including a second career for when I retire; trips I want to do; downsizing to a different home in a more rural area.... I have no plans to stand by and watch my spouse continue to revert into "creepy church lady". Nor will I become one of those middle age men that settle for sex once a year with an angry and resentful life. I've let her know this. I've let her know that I'm not ready to give up on love and romance and having a partner that's engaged into the future, but that I don't see those things going forward with her at this point. As I said above, I haven't made a decision yet about our future together, but will do so when I'm ready. You point out that there is a cross roads ahead, and its a good point. I have much work to do in the mean time.


----------



## jlg07

So now that you've let her know this, and you aren't willing to put up with it but will continue to separate your life from hers -- What has SHE done? Have you seen any actions to indicate that you got through and she is taking it seriously?

If not, a) she just doesn't think you will do anything about it, or b) she just thinks you are wrong and in a snit. I doubt that she has really internalized what you said.

If you don't see HER taking actions based on the conversation, I don't see how anything will change, other than YOU.


----------



## Casual Observer

Divinely Favored said:


> 1 Corinthians 7:5, ESV: "Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."
> 
> Paul continues to reveal God's will about sex within a Christian marriage. He has written that one purpose of marriage is for mutual, unselfish sex to overcome the temptation to participate in sexual immorality outside of marriage.
> 
> To that end, both husbands and wives have an obligation to the other, as part of their mutual commitment, to be sexually available to each other. The connection between man and woman in a Christian marriage is pictured as being so close and intimate that neither has the authority over his or her own body in this area. That authority belongs to the spouse. This verse phrases this concept as a command, not a suggestion.
> 
> Given this, i believe withholding sex from your spouse who you took a marriage oath with, is itself sexually immoral. And that in itself makes it grounds for a Biblical divorce. Sexual immorality is not just physical adultry in terms of grounds for Biblical divorce. Too many people just read on the surface and jump to a conclusion and do not dig into the word. Study the original Greek.


The other thing that gets past a _lot_ of Christians is that sex is one of the very, very few things that, scripturally, is to be only between husband and wife. It is a very special thing for that reason. Most everything else that people might do for and with one another are allowed outside of marriage. This alone elevates sex within marriage to a very special place.


----------



## Casual Observer

@Thisnotthat - How did you meet? Were you sexually active prior to marriage (individually and/or with each other)? Is there a possibility she's reacting out of guilt, that for some reason sexuality was a traumatic thing for her prior to marriage?


----------



## Sonja

[


Thisnotthat said:


> I’ve gotten some clarity over the issues in my relationship, and I appreciate the thoughts and feedback.
> 
> A couple things I’ve realized. One, my wife can be really contemptuous and disrespectful towards me. She’s also got some sort of issue with people in authority or who have power or influence over her life, or even hold expectations for her. This includes people at her work. She does seem to justify her beliefs and actions on moral and religious grounds (god always agrees with her, naturally). Next, I’m absolutely done with her displays of disrespect for me! That’s just over and in the past. As I’ve said, I have a terrific life and if she wants to spend time with me and be a part of the future that I’m building, she’ll need to find a way to drop the contempt. I am inflexible on that point.
> 
> Next, I will not compete with her religion. I mentioned that we have separate rooms now, and last night I went in to say goodnight, and was looking forward to a few minutes with her at the end of the day. As I sat on the edge of the bed, she had a devotional magazine on her lap. She would not set it aside or focus on me or really do anything to show some interest in any sort of emotional affection or connection. The devotional just sat there, a clear barrier between us that she refuses to disassemble. I affectionately wished her a good night and went to bed.
> 
> I’m not giving up on having a deep and affectionate marriage in the future, whether or not it’s with her remains to be seen. For now, I’m working to uncover and understand my role in the problems in this one. I’ll make decisions about the future when I’m ready.


I am curious how this developed since the time of last writing. To what extent are you still important in her life, in her eyes?


----------



## Thisnotthat

Still here!

For updates since my last one… For myself, I’ve been working very hard to focus on my life, and building it up, building me up. More about that to follow.

My wife has continued to build on her religious devotion and now she’s doing an early morning church class that requires her to be up by 4:30AM every day. Since that’s inconsistent with my sleep schedule, I just sleep in my own room during the week and have largely vacated the master bedroom, including the master bath. That way she can just do all of her church work starting early in the morning and I’m able to sleep, uninterrupted. While that might sound like a depressing change, I’m really loving the space and freedom that I have now. I have my own room so at night I’m able to just read, contemplate, write… I have my own space for my own uninterrupted thoughts. I’m building back my dreams, hopes, perspectives and sense of emotional health. I love it!

I’ve come to understand that my wife desperately seeks validation, to the point that she’s intensely in-tune with the people around her, and especially me, so that it feels like I haven't been able to have a private thought to myself for years. To have some space and time to be able to just be contemplative, to wander through my mind and sort through my feelings, my beliefs, my inner world has been amazing. I can read whatever book I want to, as late into the evening as I wish (though I never seem to make it past 10 PM…). I’ve found a sense of peace and intimacy that I haven't had for years.

For her part, she’s also decided that its time to pursue some educational goals on top of her religious devotion. This is consistent with her deep need for validation (good job, good grades, so smart!!!) even though she’s maintained her license to practice in her field for the past 25 years. I’m mixed on this one, because I understand its hard for females in the career world facing midlife. It might seem like a shiny new degree could make you more valuable and hire-able in the work force, just like a balding middle age man might feel like a fancy new sports car is going to make him more attractive to women. To me it just seems like a desperate and somewhat misguided attempt to feel adequate. I know many women who have changed careers in midlife and are very satisfied with that decision, but this isn't that. This is somebody getting an advanced degree in a field that she’s already qualified and licensed to work in, but has chosen not to do so. In any case, almost all of her time is divided between religious activities and her educational coursework. She’s been fine about keeping up with minor housework, but we really don’t do anything together at this point. Up to a month or so ago I was trying to interact and make plans with her, but I’ve just stopped doing that, as it seems to come to naught. Instead, I just live my life! I have a plan for every day and I’m making the most of them. I’ve been doing things with my son, as well as activities that I dearly love with friends that I enjoy and treasure. I’m really enjoying my life at this point, and not having another person taking up space in my head is just so nice! Its not that she does not try… She’s re-doubled her efforts to co-opt me into her studies, her church work, her stress, her loneliness. I’m just very clear with her: “this is what I’m doing, please let me know if you need something from me”. I’m not indifferent, I’m not angry, I’m feeling better emotionally than I ever have, but its just clear that I’m living my life. I’m happy to engage and do things with her to the extent that they need done, or for things that interest me, beyond those things though, I’ve got lots going on that makes me happy and brings me joy, so I’ll just stick to that, thank you very much.

Its eye opening to me about just how enmeshed I’d become with her, and its a place I won’t ever go again. It was also very hard to stop obsessing over exactly how she spends her time, and I’m a little bit embarrassed at the justifications I made for that. I think that in some ways, my emotional investment in how she spends her time have probably supercharged the issues for her, too. At this point I’m largely indifferent about what she’s doing or for how long. I’ve been very clear about what I need in a relationship and what I am or aren't getting from ours. Those have been really good conversations and I’m firm about that. At some point in the not to distant future I’ll decide if I want to stay in this particular relationship or end it, but for right now I’m just really focused on me and what's bouncing around in my head, and how I’m spending my time and the life that I’m building. Its been humbling, revealing and honestly, pretty liberating!


----------



## Sonja

Thisnotthat said:


> Still here!
> 
> For updates since my last one… For myself, I’ve been working very hard to focus on my life, and building it up, building me up. More about that to follow.
> 
> My wife has continued to build on her religious devotion and now she’s doing an early morning church class that requires her to be up by 4:30AM every day. Since that’s inconsistent with my sleep schedule, I just sleep in my own room during the week and have largely vacated the master bedroom, including the master bath. That way she can just do all of her church work starting early in the morning and I’m able to sleep, uninterrupted. While that might sound like a depressing change, I’m really loving the space and freedom that I have now. I have my own room so at night I’m able to just read, contemplate, write… I have my own space for my own uninterrupted thoughts. I’m building back my dreams, hopes, perspectives and sense of emotional health. I love it!
> 
> I’ve come to understand that my wife desperately seeks validation, to the point that she’s intensely in-tune with the people around her, and especially me, so that it feels like I haven't been able to have a private thought to myself for years. To have some space and time to be able to just be contemplative, to wander through my mind and sort through my feelings, my beliefs, my inner world has been amazing. I can read whatever book I want to, as late into the evening as I wish (though I never seem to make it past 10 PM…). I’ve found a sense of peace and intimacy that I haven't had for years.
> 
> For her part, she’s also decided that its time to pursue some educational goals on top of her religious devotion. This is consistent with her deep need for validation (good job, good grades, so smart!!!) even though she’s maintained her license to practice in her field for the past 25 years. I’m mixed on this one, because I understand its hard for females in the career world facing midlife. It might seem like a shiny new degree could make you more valuable and hire-able in the work force, just like a balding middle age man might feel like a fancy new sports car is going to make him more attractive to women. To me it just seems like a desperate and somewhat misguided attempt to feel adequate. I know many women who have changed careers in midlife and are very satisfied with that decision, but this isn't that. This is somebody getting an advanced degree in a field that she’s already qualified and licensed to work in, but has chosen not to do so. In any case, almost all of her time is divided between religious activities and her educational coursework. She’s been fine about keeping up with minor housework, but we really don’t do anything together at this point. Up to a month or so ago I was trying to interact and make plans with her, but I’ve just stopped doing that, as it seems to come to naught. Instead, I just live my life! I have a plan for every day and I’m making the most of them. I’ve been doing things with my son, as well as activities that I dearly love with friends that I enjoy and treasure. I’m really enjoying my life at this point, and not having another person taking up space in my head is just so nice! Its not that she does not try… She’s re-doubled her efforts to co-opt me into her studies, her church work, her stress, her loneliness. I’m just very clear with her: “this is what I’m doing, please let me know if you need something from me”. I’m not indifferent, I’m not angry, I’m feeling better emotionally than I ever have, but its just clear that I’m living my life. I’m happy to engage and do things with her to the extent that they need done, or for things that interest me, beyond those things though, I’ve got lots going on that makes me happy and brings me joy, so I’ll just stick to that, thank you very much.
> 
> Its eye opening to me about just how enmeshed I’d become with her, and its a place I won’t ever go again. It was also very hard to stop obsessing over exactly how she spends her time, and I’m a little bit embarrassed at the justifications I made for that. I think that in some ways, my emotional investment in how she spends her time have probably supercharged the issues for her, too. At this point I’m largely indifferent about what she’s doing or for how long. I’ve been very clear about what I need in a relationship and what I am or aren't getting from ours. Those have been really good conversations and I’m firm about that. At some point in the not to distant future I’ll decide if I want to stay in this particular relationship or end it, but for right now I’m just really focused on me and what's bouncing around in my head, and how I’m spending my time and the life that I’m building. Its been humbling, revealing and honestly, pretty liberating!


Thank you for sharing. I enjoyed reading your letter.


----------



## Rob_1

To the OP: you talk the good talk, but you don't do the walk. It's pathetic to see how a man rationalizes, tear apart the most intrinsic aspects of his relationship with their absent partner, how they talk themselves into the anytime now, anytime now while wasting away their life with a roommate, while they continue to be the mule, working and providing everything within their abilities so that their roommate partner keeps having the easy life devoted to their whatever fancy enterprises might be. I can see when the time (if ever) comes for separation and divorce how screwed this OP will be financially by her lawyers, and we all know that the longer we wait the worse the hit is.


----------



## Luckylucky

I think it’s a good sign that she’s wanting to include you in her activities & thoughts. She’s talking, don’t shut that out altogether, we women like to be listened to and like for our husbands to be excited and care when we step into middle age. It can be a confusing time for some women when the kids and husband no longer see us. We can get excited about a hobby, and it can hurt if our partner’s don’t see the potential for us. It’s good that you’re letting go a bit. Hopefully your new way of being can bring you both together and open up your marriage in this new phase. Good luck.


----------



## Thisnotthat

I had “the talk” with my wife this morning. I went to see her early in the morning before others were awake. When I knocked on the door to see if she was free to talk she had her headphones in, listening to a church audio recording while seated in this strange part meditative, part prayerful position that she spends hours in. She clearly resented the interruption, and asked me to let her finish. When I came back a half hour later she said that she wanted to talk the next day (still in her audio/prayer/meditation) and it was clear that “never” would also be a good time to discuss things.

After insisting we talk, I explained that I’m updating the health insurance today, so she’ll have insurance for the next year, but that she’s going to need to start making plans to either find work that offers health coverage, or see what other programs are available. I’m filing for divorce in the new year after she has a minor medical procedure completed that she has scheduled. Naturally I explained that I’d work to take care of her during recovery. Based on my research and preparations so far I understand how much spousal maintenance and child support will be. She wont be able to keep the house and I’m not certain that I’ll be able to afford to purchase her out of half of it, in which case we’ll have to sell it. I discussed preliminary ideas for our son based on how we spend time and care for him now. This would give me about 25% custody, and I’d have him for the evenings and days when he and I tend to do things together.

She shed a few tears, but I think those are more because she’ll have less time to devote to church things and her latest educational pursuit, which is the same one she’s been doing for 25 years, with little to show for. She’ll have to get a job at some point, which will force her to curtail or limit other things, and will of course mean she’ll have to deal with heathens out in the real world, too. I’m unable to protect her from that, anymore.

I still have some dignity as a man; some self respect. I crave a relationship with a real, live flesh and blood grown up woman! I adore the feminine and have the natural urge to provide for; to protect and to love. I explained that I’m done trying to compete for her time and her affection. I’m done competing with her church. No matter how I try to twist and contort, I just cant see a shared future for the two of us. For now we have our youngest at home and we’re both very devoted parents. But he’ll be 18 in a couple of years and I can’t imagine that we’ll have anything in common after that. I’m 50, and I’m not going to spend the next 25 years preparing Sunday school lessons! So… I’m in a place I never really believed that I’d be in... I’m getting a divorce.

I read the crazy stories here on this website about torrid affairs, deceptions, and all sort of crazy sexual peccadillo's that people find themselves in, and I feel like I have no right to want for something more than I have; which is a wife that’s become an androgynous devotee to a faith system which is more than happy to consume everything she’s offering and will still ask for more. Nobody seems to have any good insight into that sort of weirdness. Does the 180 work? What do you do when your married to a person who’s been trained her entire life to spin any discontent, any negative feelings, any pain or suffering into a broader narrative of good verses evil, with herself always on the side of good and the discontented on the other side? You can’t have a relationship without being heard by your partner on an emotional level, and its impossible to move forward on anything when your deepest needs are regarded as the unholy desires of the adversary becoming manifest? Not every problem in life has a cosmic significance and the desire to be understood and loved is just a basic human need. Sometimes **** is just ****, and sometimes **** just happens. Life is scary, but that's no excuse to become a zealot.

Her life, I suspect will soon be much more scary because she’s going to have to make some big girl decisions that she’s not used to making. She’s going to have to learn to cooperate with people, and develop relationships, and not always be right, and …. god why have I shielded her from all of that for so long? For now she seems mildly exuberant about things, and I suspect that’s because she feels a sense of release from any expectations about having to meet somebody else’s needs or expectations – mainly mine.

For me, I’m sad but hopeful. I think I’ve understood what needs done for awhile, and I’ve been grieving and so very low. Now that its out there, I just feel like I have a lot of work ahead. I hope that I come out of this okay, and don’t end up another bitter and angry man, like so many do. I hope I can take care of my son and make sure he knows how much that I love him. Released from the anger and frustration that has been tormenting me so long, I hope I can continue to be responsible and respectful going forward. I hope that I’ll continue to be honest and forthright, even when it hurts so badly. I hope that the support system that I’ve worked so hard to establish is enough, and that I’m enough.

I have so many plans for the rest of my life, and its so strange to think she won't be a part of those.


----------



## sunshinie

Thisnotthat said:


> My wife and I have been married 25 years, with two kids, a teen that still lives at home and another off in college. We are both approaching 50.
> 
> My wife is very religious and her devotion has increased significantly in the past 10 years or so. Currently she spends easily over half of her time devoted to religion, including prayer, reading scripture, teaching our son, and in service of various forms to her church. Her religion has an overwhelming presence in my life and in my home, and the time that she devotes to it shows no signs of slowing down. She works part time at my insistence, and is taking no steps to increase her employment beyond that. In fact I don’t believe she’d work at all if not for me pushing her in that direction. While I was patient with all of this through most of our marriage, I’m finding it less and less palatable. I’m an agnostic in my belief at best, but it’s not her beliefs or belief system that I have an issue with, it’s her single minded devotion to it over almost everything else (including me) that has become the problem. If I want time with her then it’s a decision between her religious practice and me. I’m essentially competing for time and attention with god, and naturally god always agrees with her (per her)! Inviting her along for a bike ride with our teen (something we all love) introduces a crisis because she’ll “have to re-schedule church meetings, and wont get all her time in at scripture study and what kind of example will that set for our family…” I’ve actually moved out of the master bedroom (clothes and everything) into the spare bedroom just so I’ll have a refuge from it all.
> 
> I’m happy for her that she has found a life path that works for her, yet I will not be the one that supports her in that path at the expense of having an actual functional spouse. I’m trying hard to develop a boundary regarding this, but its very difficult to do so. Monks, Nuns, priests and religious pilgrims generally take a vow to remain single, and I can see why. My wife’s first loyalty and her devotion are to God and to her faith, and I am not content to just be her benefactor in those pursuits, yet she has put me in that role now and would remain very satisfied if I just agree and accept that. Naturally her religion is of the mindset that sex is really terrible and should only be done to the one you love; so you can imagine how the romance and intimacy side of things goes. I have developed boundaries about that separately…
> Another aspect of her personality is that she tends a bit towards extremes. She has no medium setting, its either all on or completely off, so requests to “just tone it down a little bit”, and “focus on me or us some, also” just go nowhere. She does not seem to be able to manage a middle path. As far as the rest of our lives go, she’s not really a great partner and its hard to find a lot that’s interesting in her at this point (note to religious people, zealots are not terribly interesting or insightful, in case you’re contemplating that path).
> 
> What is fair here? I would never say to somebody that they can’t believe a certain way, nor would that do any good. More moderate messages about how she spends her time just don’t seem to penetrate. I can’t seem to find a boundary that is clear. Ultimately everything I come up with seems to rely on my subjective view of how much is too much, and I don’t like that. Yet I’m done competing for time and attention from my spouse over this. I have an excellent life with a great career, friends, and sports and hobbies that I’m passionate about. Yet instead of a wife I’m married to some sort of religious supplicant and expected to be happy about that.
> 
> I’d love thoughts and opinions, with the caveat: please don’t quote scripture to me. I have enough of that in my life right now, and it’s just not helpful to me.


Its sad to hear, and yet it is very common. My father and 3rd wife has this exact problem, in that she is too holy to do anything. It has resulted in him having several affairs which has made things even worst.

As a woman of faith, I would advise you to find some material related to her belief about marriage, and earthly relationships (every religion has one) and try to discuss it in a way that also highlights your needs. You don't have to share her faith but rather communicate in her language. Right now you are speaking Mandarin and she French.

If she is Christian, tell her that King Solomon said to strike a balance. 'Don't be too righteous that you die too young or too sinful that you live too long, But rather hold onto God and he will not allow you to go to either extremes'


----------

