# What is Counseling or therapy?



## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Probably seems like a ridiculous question but i'd like to hear peoples opinions or experiences. I'm seriously considering a separation and possible divorce and will start both individual and couples therapy this week. I don't know what to expect. I guess i wonder if it's possible to actually grow and change with the help of a professional if i've been reluctant to do anything without one.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

It was a waste of time and money for me. I hated my wife at the time and was just using it to make her happy so i could sleep in my comfy king bed. We saw 3 different therapists in our 8 year marriage. We were on the 3rd and 4th visit when I decided to leave her. I'm pretty sure she's still in IC once a week. I don't need therapy. I needed peace and quiet, far away from her.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

JTL said:


> Probably seems like a ridiculous question but i'd like to hear peoples opinions or experiences. I'm seriously considering a separation and possible divorce and will start both individual and couples therapy this week. I don't know what to expect. I guess i wonder if it's possible to actually grow and change with the help of a professional if i've been reluctant to do anything without one.




What's the problem with the marriage?


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## JTL (Dec 14, 2009)

Communication/meeting each others needs. I'm a narcissist so that's a problem.


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Counseling is good for learning to see a point of view that differs from your own. It is generally hard for a narcissist to do that, but if you are paying someone $150/hr it gets a lot easier.


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## ResignedWife (Jan 20, 2017)

Counseling helped my husband and me a couple times during our marriage. The first time it helped us to realize that I had suffered from clinical depression for the first several years of our marriage, and helped heal the wounds that had formed between us during that time. We went to that therapist for about 10 weeks.

A few years ago we went again for about 8 weeks, and figured out that 99% of the stuff we argued about was pointless, and the therapist taught us mechanisms to put in place to stop things from escalating. The result of that is that my husband and I become friends who rarely argued. Did it result in us becoming a successful married couple? No, but it helped reduce the stress of walking around on tenterhooks wondering when the next fight would arise.

I'm convinced that second batch of therapy is what is allowing my husband and I to mutually agree to legal separation and remain amicable about everything thus far.

Once we tell the kids, we both want to take them to family therapy sessions should the kids need/want it. If I reach a point where I feel like I need it during the separation process, I'll certainly seek it. I think it can be helpful if you invest in it and really take advantage of the tools they give you.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

JTL said:


> Communication/meeting each others needs. I'm a narcissist so that's a problem.


It will take a LOT of work on your part. A LOT. It's hard for narcissists to change, or realize that they need to change their behavior, and it will require constant vigilance on your part, long after therapy is over. But if you want to save your marriage, that's what you have to do.

A good childhood friend married a narcissist, and he almost destroyed their marriage. Somehow, he realized what he was doing, and they went to really intense therapy, and they're quite happy now.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@JTL it will also help your wife (? sorry, don't know your gender or orientation, I'm making assumptions) learn how to better handle being married to a narcissist.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I honestly don't think that you'll get any benefit at all. You are paying a therapist for their opinion, not always right or appropriate, and there's no guarantee that they will help you. There is a guarantee, however, that you pay them. Therapists really are nothing more than conmen / women. I suggest that you don't do the counseling, it will be an additional large bill that you don't need.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> I honestly don't think that you'll get any benefit at all. You are paying a therapist for their opinion, not always right or appropriate, and there's no guarantee that they will help you. There is a guarantee, however, that you pay them. Therapists really are nothing more than conmen / women. I suggest that you don't do the counseling, it will be an additional large bill that you don't need.


Have you been to therapy yourself? If not, then you are not qualified to make this kind of judgment. If yes, then it seems you had a bad experience. Also there is no guarantee in ANYTHING in life... if only... 

You will only get out of therapy what you put into it. If you both are not 100% up front and honest with everything, and open to the suggestions of the therapist, then you would be wasting your time. It is most certainly worth a try in order to help save your marriage.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I've seen two individual therapists and two marriage counselors. My opinion...

1 - Unless you both are going for the purpose of making changes and saving your marriage, marriage counseling is a waste of time. You both have to be on the same page with this.

2 - Open and complete honesty is necessary when going to counseling. In marriage counseling you want to address ALL the issues you are having. You can't spend months talking to a marriage counselor and then one day say to your spouse "I hate when you..." and it's something you never addressed in counseling.

3 - Go in with a plan with goals and timelines. Be flexible with both. Otherwise you just become billable hours to the counselor... the more you go the more you pay. Stick to the goals and know when you've achieved them. If you can never achieve them then perhaps counseling isn't going to work.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> I honestly don't think that you'll get any benefit at all. You are paying a therapist for their opinion, not always right or appropriate, and there's no guarantee that they will help you. There is a guarantee, however, that you pay them. Therapists really are nothing more than conmen / women. I suggest that you don't do the counseling, it will be an additional large bill that you don't need.


Agreed.

And part of their 'expert knowledge' is to usually throw over-used self help books at you as 'homework.' 

This is huge business for therpists today since everyone thinks the magic bullet to cure a cheater is counseling. And these fools don't disappoint - they'll pull some magic excuse for the cheater right out of their ass - like the cheater's mommy and daddy neglected them, or they'll pull up some ridiculous childhood event that was SURELY the cause for why the cheater crossed the line, blah blah blah. And foolish BS's are sucking this stuff up, *desperate* to self-soothe themselves with a "why" for their WS' cheating. There's always got to be some deep, dark 'why' for these people, and it's always got to come from some charlatan shrink.

And now, some of these UNQUALIFIED con-men and con-women therapists are 'diagnosing' men as sex addicts every time these guys get caught with their pants down. Talk about getting a *get out of jail free *card. All the cheater has to do is walk in off the streets into some 'sex addicts' meeting and wifey is all happy they're 'recovering.' Unreal.

So yeah. I have little to no respect at all for 'therapists.'


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It is if your counselor is good. 

I have some deeply held beliefs. Some of them are healthy...Some not.

My first therapist mirrored what I said and used active listening. He did not challenge me in how my beliefs affected my circumstances. I only went to him for a couple of months and moved on.

My current therapist I see about every 3-6 months now, and he is good at challenging me, which is exactly what I need.

The MC we used was very much the same. She occasionally brought out 2x4's to get my wife to realize what her beliefs were doing to our marriage, and what my actions in response to her beliefs were doing.

If they do not challenge you, they are likely a co-pay collector.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Agreed.
> 
> And part of their 'expert knowledge' is to usually throw over-used self help books at you as 'homework.'
> 
> ...


Wow there's someone who actually agrees with me on this!! I definitely like what you say here. These so called "therapists" are not required to have a degree and no qualifications at all in some states, making them, in my mind, nothing more than high priced soothsayers. It's totally revolting to me that some people prey off people who actually think talking to them is helpful as they joyfully deposit their prey's money in their account. They always seem to come up with the "reason" for the cheating having to do with some childhood experience that justifies it. What bull****! The reason they did it, face it, is because they lack any type of moral responsibility they have to their marriage. But no, these people are justified as sex-addicts by their "therapist" and the BH or BW is encouraged to continue the marriage while the correct "hocus pokus" magically will cure their spouse. 

Naa, that's not dealing with the problem.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

GuyInColorado said:


> It was a waste of time and money for me. I hated my wife at the time and was just using it to make her happy so i could sleep in my comfy king bed. We saw 3 different therapists in our 8 year marriage. We were on the 3rd and 4th visit when I decided to leave her. I'm pretty sure she's still in IC once a week. I don't need therapy. I needed peace and quiet, far away from her.


Did the therapist pick up on your "I'm done" state of mind and try to communicate this to your erstwhile wife.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jb02157 said:


> I honestly don't think that you'll get any benefit at all. You are paying a therapist for their opinion, not always right or appropriate, and there's no guarantee that they will help you. There is a guarantee, however, that you pay them. Therapists really are nothing more than conmen / women.


People who become counselors devote at least six years plus accreditation to be able to do so. That's at least six years (10+ if you go for the PhD) of learning about people, what makes them tick, how to fix them, and knowledge about all the ways in which we screw up and/or can become better/happier. There are much easier ways to become a conman.

They also do it because they're usually able to understand people better than others and convey that knowledge that will help in a way that makes sense. The counselors I've seen have been majorly instrumental in the changes I've been able to make, through (1) showing me the truth of my situation and (2) holding me accountable for change - two things nobody else is qualified to do.


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## Ol'Pal (Aug 24, 2015)

It was a waste of time for me. I went in knowing what i needed to do for ME. Some might call it selfish and so be it. The counselor just listened and told me to go home and make lists with my wife, never did it so that part is on me for sure. 

But i still haven't filed, cause i like my house, king bed, truck, my boat, dog, etc. etc.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

I liked the guy I was seeing for about a year. 

He didn't just ask me questions and wait for me to figure out a good answer.

He'd give me suggestions and advice on how to handle difficult situations, conflict, and just better ways to deal with troublesome people in my life by giving me different perspectives and other approaches.

I've had other people tell me "wow my therapist never did that they'd just wait for me to figure it out for myself".


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

browser said:


> I liked the guy I was seeing for about a year.
> 
> He didn't just ask me questions and wait for me to figure out a good answer.
> 
> ...


You know, I think this also really depends on the patient/client as well. It's the whole, "You can lead a horse to water..." bit. If you have a patient/client who is open and receptive to your answers or perspective, perhaps the you (the therapist) is more likely to give straight up advice/answers... whereas, there are people who are less receptive, and who don't believe anything until they figure it out for themselves, and for whom the therapist's best course of action is to wait for them to figure it out themselves, rather than talk themselves blue in the face with someone who won't listen. Each patient/client needs something a little bit different--the same approach won't work for everyone. Perhaps the people who said _"wow my therapist never did that they'd just wait for me to figure it out for myself"_ were the stubborn type who won't believe anything until they've figured it out for themselves.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Agreed.
> 
> *And part of their 'expert knowledge' is to usually throw over-used self help books at you as 'homework.' *
> 
> ...


While I pretty much disagree with your entire post, I'm most interest in addressing the bolded statement above.

Assigning books as homework can actually be a very productive method, assuming that the patient/client is halfway literate and is willing to put in the work. One can only make so much progress by going to see a therapist once a week and doing nothing else... you would basically move at a snail's pace. But if a therapist assigns certain books, she can impart a much larger breadth of knowledge in a shorter period of time; reading these books forces the patient/client to think about their issues in an analytical/critical way in an ongoing fashion, rather than relegated to just that one hour a week, such that the patient/client may be made aware of behavioral patterns they may have never noticed before, or thought to mention in a session; if the patient/client take this opportunity to be more critical and analytical of their own behaviors, it better prepares them to self-regulate and manage these things without the guidance of a therapist, which will happen someday; this practice also allows the patient/client to self-direct their own therapy in a way (I read about this in the book this week, and I see this pattern happening with me, can we talk about it?)--if the patient/client can learn to self-identify their deficiencies, it helps the therapist to target the therapy, rather than having to root around to identify what the therapist wants to work on.

This method won't work well for everyone, but it worked quite well for me. In fact, my therapist said she felt bad taking my money because I was doing so great with the books on my own, and that she didn't think that I needed therapy. I said I wanted to continue seeing her, so she suggested that we switch to meeting semimonthly, rather than every week.

Not all therapists are charlatans. Many of them do a lot of good. Mine literally changed my life.


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## ChipperE (Nov 16, 2016)

My husband and I are nearly 7 weeks into Reconciliation and MC. It has been such a positive thing for us both, but especially him, as it has helped him identify issues that led to separation and shown him ways to be a better husband. For both of us it has helped us to learn to communicate effectively. SO much, in fact, that it's odd to be so rational and direct about things sometimes. Our relationship is rebuilding, I am healing and he has learned how to support me and the tools to use. 

The caveat to all this is that parties must be willing to buy in 100% to the process and put the tools in place all the time. Both have to drop their defenses and both have to agree to be honest about everything. It's been hard at times, and the work continues outside of our sessions. 

I think it can work, but you need the right therapist and two willing participants.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

turnera said:


> People who become counselors devote at least six years plus accreditation to be able to do so. That's at least six years (10+ if you go for the PhD) of learning about people, what makes them tick, how to fix them, and knowledge about all the ways in which we screw up and/or can become better/happier. There are much easier ways to become a conman.
> 
> They also do it because they're usually able to understand people better than others and convey that knowledge that will help in a way that makes sense. The counselors I've seen have been majorly instrumental in the changes I've been able to make, through (1) showing me the truth of my situation and (2) holding me accountable for change - two things nobody else is qualified to do.


Yes but therapists aren't required to be accredited or certified in certain states. Even if you do have the fancy degree and certification, there's no guarantee that they will help you. I often that that you have to believe in their hocus pocus before it can be perceived to work. They give you books to read that you can buy on your own without their pricey sessions.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> Yes but therapists aren't required to be accredited or certified in certain states. Even if you do have the fancy degree and certification, there's no guarantee that they will help you. I often that that you have to believe in their hocus pocus before it can be perceived to work. They give you books to read that you can buy on your own without their pricey sessions.


I think of them kind of like personal trainers, but for your psyche or your emotional self, instead of your physical body. Some personal trainers are great, and they customize what they do based on the client's emotional state of mind, physical abilities, etc, and who are very effective... and then there are trainers who do the same thing for every client, regardless, and so they're only effective with maybe 10% of their clients.

Different clients are looking for different things when they hire a trainer. Some clients just need someone to hold them accountable, someone they have to "report to" every week; some people need someone to motivate them and push them, because they aren't motivated enough on their own and they need someone to spur them, to challenge them; some people have hit a plateau, or they're already pretty fit, but they need a professional to get them to the next level; and finally, some people are totally fvcked and have no idea what they're doing, and they need someone to walk them through it step by step, and to teach them how to eat healthily and how to take care of their bodies. The trainer meets with them once, maybe twice a week, gives them homework assignments (do these workouts this week), and the next time they meet, the trainer assesses the client's progress and adjusts the workout regimen appropriately, and assigns new homework.

And then, there are some people who don't go to a trainer, because they can buy a book on nutrition and exercise and read it and teach themselves how to exercise and eat right. They can self-motivate, self-evaluate, self-adjust, and self-assign workouts.

The client is the one who actually does all the heavy lifting (literally); the trainer is there as a mentor, as a teacher, as a cheerleader, etc... whatever the client needs from the trainer.

And finally, there are people who don't need a trainer, because they learned early in life (likely from their FOO) the importance of maintaining a healthy body and diet, and they learned how from an early age, and they just do it out of habit.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jb02157 said:


> Yes but therapists aren't required to be accredited or certified in certain states. Even if you do have the fancy degree and certification, there's no guarantee that they will help you. I often that that you have to believe in their hocus pocus before it can be perceived to work. * They give you books to read that you can buy on your own without their pricey sessions.*


Many don't hand you books.... because that would be like saying that someone knows more / better than they do.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> Many don't hand you books.... because that would be like saying that someone knows more / better than they do.


Precisely my point, they really don't know any better than anyone else does so why should you pay them large amounts of money for the same advice you can get by reading a book?


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> Precisely my point, they really don't know any better than anyone else does so why should you pay them large amounts of money for the same advice you can get by reading a book?


Books don't talk to you and help you understand yourself better.

The next time you're sick why bother going to the doctor when you can read a medical journal or something. 

If you decide to get divorced simply read a few law journals.


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