# Would you date a woman who made more than you?



## ntamph

I guess by "date" I mean a relationship really. Not talking about casual. And by more I mean *significantly* more (not incomes that are close to the same).

I voted "No" because I would feel emasculated and I've seen that these types of relationships usually don't work out. They are usually doomed. Do you agree or disagree?


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## EleGirl

ntamph said:


> I guess by "date" I mean a relationship really. Not talking about casual. And by more I mean *significantly* more (not incomes that are close to the same).
> 
> I voted "No" because I would feel emasculated and I've seen that these types of relationships usually don't work out. They are usually doomed. Do you agree or disagree?


Interesting article on the topic.

A Marriage Mystery: Why Aren't More Wives Outearning Their Husbands? - The Atlantic

This is a very good reason why women might want to pick men who make the same or more than they do.


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## ConanHub

I would. I am not intimidated by powerful women. I find them attractive. I am also very confident. I would never be a SAHD but if my career choices and personal goals did not net as much as my SO, I would not be affected. If she was into me, I would not have an issue.

I don't think it works most of the time however. I haven't seen many lasting relationships where the woman makes twice as much or more.

I have seen the same issue with height. Not too many taller women with shorter men. But sometimes it works.

It probably boils down to how the man makes her feel.... safe, loved, sexy, attractive.

It might be harder for most men to overcome feelings of inferiority enough to deliver the emotional security that most women need in a LTR.

Interesting question.


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## Shoto1984

It wouldn't bother me a bit. Its not about the money as much as the level of intellect for me. Additionally, the ability to rock her world in bed takes care of a lot


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## BWBill

Probably not. My wife would be pretty upset.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> Interesting article on the topic.
> 
> A Marriage Mystery: Why Aren't More Wives Outearning Their Husbands? - The Atlantic
> 
> This is a very good reason why women might want to pick men who make the same or more than they do.


Pretty good article and I would have to agree with most of it.


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## Convection

Yes, wouldn't matter to me one way or the other.

Just on this one factor, long term sucess would honestly depend more on her feelings on it than mine. If it was a problem for her, I suspect it would manifest in how she treated me. Then it would be on me to confront or move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Interesting article on the topic.
> 
> A Marriage Mystery: Why Aren't More Wives Outearning Their Husbands? - The Atlantic
> 
> This is a very good reason why women might want to pick men who make the same or more than they do.


The mainstream reason for this is that men are uncomfortable with their wife earning more than them. This is the "culturally acceptable" reason. This is the conclusion of this article (it's just assumed, there's not even an effort to justify it).

However, I think that the bigger issue is that women are uncomfortable making more than their husbands. Having this opinion (that it may be women that have the problem) is VERY non-culturally acceptable.

After all, it's always the man's fault.


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## TimeHeals

Made more what?

Trips to the bathroom? Excuses for behaving badly?


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## Dad&Hubby

My happily married wife makes approximately 50% more than I do.....

I still have my testes where they belong.

I wouldn't date a woman who made more than me and judged me for it....that would be my only restriction.


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## MNLawenforcement

Well I wouldn't date a "woman" who makes more than me. I would date a guy who makes more than me. In fact, I have. It's not really that big of a deal for me, but then my relationships are naturally going to have different issues than heterosexuals.


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## always_alone

Took the liberty of answering for my SO.

Together almost 17 years, and I make about 90% of household income. His masculinity appears to be unfazed.


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## ntamph

I'm feeling a wee bit embarrassed being the only "No" vote........................


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## Buddy400

ntamph said:


> I'm feeling a wee bit embarrassed being the only "No" vote........................


Post a poll asking if women would be okay with marrying a man that made significantly less than them and I think you might see more no votes.


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## Runs like Dog

Only if she wasn't an enormous tool about it.


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## thefam

Buddy400 said:


> Post a poll asking if women would be okay with marrying a man that made significantly less than them and I think you might see more no votes.


As a woman I did it early in our marriage. My base salary at that time was only a little higher but I got a TON of overtime so I made almost double.

My H got a second job so we could save for a house, and from that point, neither one of us made significantly more than the other until he got double what he was making in the position he has been in now for 2 years. And, well, I'm now a SAHM.

And I will add that we have from day one kept our money in one pot and considered it "our" money.


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## SimplyAmorous

I asked my husband this question just now.. he said it wouldn't matter what she made..... I asked what would matter.... 
his reply...." If she was throwing it in my face or not"


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## lifeistooshort

ConanHub said:


> I would. I am not intimidated by powerful women. I find them attractive. I am also very confident. I would never be a SAHD but if my career choices and personal goals did not net as much as my SO, I would not be affected. If she was into me, I would not have an issue.
> 
> I don't think it works most of the time however. I haven't seen many lasting relationships where the woman makes twice as much or more.
> 
> I have seen the same issue with height. Not too many taller women with shorter men. But sometimes it works.
> 
> It probably boils down to how the man makes her feel.... safe, loved, sexy, attractive.
> 
> It might be harder for most men to overcome feelings of inferiority enough to deliver the emotional security that most women need in a LTR.
> 
> Interesting question.


I like you.


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## unbelievable

Not only would I date one, I'd marry one, rub her feet every night, bring her breakfast in bed, tell her she's gorgeous, and let her buy me a new Harley every year.


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## Mr The Other

ntamph said:


> I guess by "date" I mean a relationship really. Not talking about casual. And by more I mean *significantly* more (not incomes that are close to the same).
> 
> I voted "No" because I would feel emasculated and I've seen that these types of relationships usually don't work out. They are usually doomed. Do you agree or disagree?


Most high earning woman would say the reason they would not date a poorer or shorter man would be his attitude. There is some truth in this, but I think it is mainly nonsense. There is the image of the traditional couple in the back of the mind and all the time she feel she is missing out and the man has to make up for it. That is a great deal of work.

I live in a country where at 5'10", I have been out with a few women taller than me. I have a role where I am in charge of men typically 50lb heavier than me. I am not insecure in my masculinity. The answer is "yes", but there is a valid reason for hesitating.


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## Thundarr

ntamph said:


> I'm feeling a wee bit embarrassed being the only "No" vote........................


It's the wording of your question ntamph. A lot of guys would feel somehow threatened. Maybe I would have when I was younger? It's not a show stopper for most guys though considering it's one thing out of many.


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## EleGirl

Buddy400 said:


> The mainstream reason for this is that men are uncomfortable with their wife earning more than them. This is the "culturally acceptable" reason. This is the conclusion of this article (it's just assumed, there's not even an effort to justify it).
> 
> *However, I think that the bigger issue is that women are uncomfortable making more than their husbands. Having this opinion (that it may be women that have the problem) is VERY non-culturally acceptable.*
> After all, it's always the man's fault.


Ok, I created a poll in the Ladies' Lounge.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...ou-date-marry-man-who-made-less-than-you.html


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## Mr. Nail

What I feared and what I had seen would discourage me from dating a woman who made significantly more than me. 

This is what I saw: A woman earned an advanced degree while married (we can assume that he supported her financially and other wise in the pursuit of this degree) As soon as she graduated her mother started telling her she deserved more and that her husband was not good enough for her. Eventually she divorced him. 

What has been the case in my own life. My wife has advanced in her career to the point where she now makes more than me. Not more than I did at my peak but more than I can currently earn. She still values me the same as when she made half what I made.

MN


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## Mr. Nail

Bravo! Ele,

But the question I had for the Ladies was "would you Marry a man Who can cook better than you?"

MN


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## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> What I feared and what I had seen would discourage me from dating a woman who made significantly more than me.
> 
> This is what I saw: A woman earned an advanced degree while married (we can assume that he supported her financially and other wise in the pursuit of this degree) As soon as she graduated her mother started telling her she deserved more and that her husband was not good enough for her. Eventually she divorced him.


A very large percentage of both men and women who get advanced degrees while married to a person who does not have an equal degree divorce their spouse. I've read that it's as high as 90%+. 

I was married to a man who decided to go to medical school. I supported him and our son through school and paid for most of his school. When he was done he had zero debt. So you know I invested a HUGE amount in him. He very clearly told me that I was now beneath him and he wanted a divorce.

Most of the married new docs in his class and residency divorced for the same reason. What you say with that woman is not something unique to her or unique to women.



Mr. Nail said:


> What has been the case in my own life. My wife has advanced in her career to the point where she now makes more than me. Not more than I did at my peak but more than I can currently earn. She still values me the same as when she made half what I made.


The above proves a very important point. It's the people involved, not the income levels that count.


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## EleGirl

Mr. Nail said:


> Bravo! Ele,
> 
> But the question I had for the Ladies was "would you Marry a man Who can cook better than you?"
> 
> MN


Well this woman answers "YES!!!" to that question. 

I'm a good cook. If he cooks better, it would be great.


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## HappyGilmore

EleGirl said:


> Well this woman answers "YES!!!" to that question.
> 
> I'm a good cook. If he cooks better, it would be great.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Count me in, too. I'm on board with a guy that can cook better than I.

Actually, to be completely honest, my 16 year old son is a better cook than I. Of course, he wants to be a chef when he grows up, so there you have it.  I'm very proud of him.

I suppose, upon reflection on the income issue, I didn't get the memo where I was supposed to care whether I made more than he did. Am I missing something? Am I supposed to care?


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## Wolf1974

I have several times. Was never an issue for me personally, Nor if they were higher educated. I don't base my value of self on what others do, only what I do. That's just me.


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## unbelievable

Mr. Nail said:


> What I feared and what I had seen would discourage me from dating a woman who made significantly more than me.
> 
> This is what I saw: A woman earned an advanced degree while married (we can assume that he supported her financially and other wise in the pursuit of this degree) As soon as she graduated her mother started telling her she deserved more and that her husband was not good enough for her. Eventually she divorced him.
> 
> What has been the case in my own life. My wife has advanced in her career to the point where she now makes more than me. Not more than I did at my peak but more than I can currently earn. She still values me the same as when she made half what I made.
> 
> MN


My wife had an advanced degree when we married and I did not. I got mine and picked up another BS degree to boot. Not like it's particularly hard. It's more a matter of having financing and the time. Certainly doesn't mean anyone is smarter or better than anyone else. You could have a surgeon, a lawyer, a professor, a plumber, and a waiter in the same room and the plumber or the waiter might well be the smartest person there. A degree means you have a piece of paper. One could be a surgeon earning six figures one week and a penniless mentally ill dependent the next. Playing "who earns the most" is a dangerous game because roles can easily change.


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## Joylush

unbelievable said:


> Not only would I date one, I'd marry one, rub her feet every night, bring her breakfast in bed, tell her she's gorgeous, and let her buy me a new Harley every year.


I just bought mine a new work truck! I love buying him things! If the roles were reversed he would do the same for me.


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## Jasel

ntamph said:


> I'm feeling a wee bit embarrassed being the only "No" vote........................


Don't feel too bad, I voted no too.


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## unbelievable

Most of the cops I work with are married to higher wage earners. When you're the police, higher wage earners aren't hard to find.


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## bandit.45

No for me. It never works out in the long run...never will. A woman cannot love and respect a man who she out-earns. 

10,000 years of social evolution cannot be undone by economic equality.


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## Wolf1974

unbelievable said:


> Most of the cops I work with are married to higher wage earners. When you're the police, higher wage earners aren't hard to find.


Yep!


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## whitehawk

Fk yeah, days of equality man and they are the ones that brought it on.
So if she makes more than me then she can pay for more than l do to, just like l'd be doing if it was me making more , lap it up l reckon :rofl:

Nah really, l couldn't care less. The only thing that would [email protected] me is if she did much longer hours than me to get it. Nothing more boring than a women that's always working


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## Maneo

Our economic, social and cultural values are changing so some day this may be a moot question. But today in 2014 in most of the world it remains a minority of men who would say it does not matter. A growing minority. Ask again in another decade or two.


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## jorgegene

unbelievable said:


> My wife had an advanced degree when we married and I did not. I got mine and picked up another BS degree to boot. Not like it's particularly hard. It's more a matter of having financing and the time. Certainly doesn't mean anyone is smarter or better than anyone else. You could have a surgeon, a lawyer, a professor, a plumber, and a waiter in the same room and the plumber or the waiter might well be the smartest person there. A degree means you have a piece of paper. One could be a surgeon earning six figures one week and a penniless mentally ill dependent the next. Playing "who earns the most" is a dangerous game because roles can easily change.


My best buddy dropped out of high school at 16 yo. he would almost brag that he only had a tenth grade education. He's really rough around the edges, but I'd bet on him up against a few dr. types. He built up his own trucking business and made a few million several times over.


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## JCD

Dad&Hubby said:


> My happily married wife makes approximately 50% more than I do.....
> 
> I still have my testes where they belong.
> 
> I wouldn't date a woman who made more than me and judged me for it....that would be my only restriction.


Herein lies the problem, my lovelies: you don't know how she will react until you are already there. How can you know this in advance? So at that point, it's like you've already stepped into a knee deep mud wallow. How are you getting out without losing your boot?


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## JCD

unbelievable said:


> Most of the cops I work with are married to higher wage earners. When you're the police, higher wage earners aren't hard to find.


A cop has a gun and can technically arrest Bill Gates. That does a WEE bit to balance the scales.


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## Ikaika

unbelievable said:


> Most of the cops I work with are married to higher wage earners. When you're the police, higher wage earners aren't hard to find.



Same for those in academia. As the sad joke goes, what's the difference between a large pizza meal and a professor? The pizza meal can feed a family of four. 

Tapatalk does not allow me to officially vote, but I would have no issue with dating someone who earned more than myself. Personally, I have other criteria that I would weed through before I thought about this one.


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## Buddy400

EleGirl said:


> Ok, I created a poll in the Ladies' Lounge.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...ou-date-marry-man-who-made-less-than-you.html


Okay, we're all a bunch of exceptionally good people here on TAM!


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## Wolf1974

JCD said:


> A cop has a gun and can technically arrest Bill Gates. That does a WEE bit to balance the scales.


For those into the fantasy of guys in uniform. Not for the girls with the fantasy of a Ferrari


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## roostr

Not at all, meaning I wouldnt mind.


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## roostr

unbelievable said:


> Most of the cops I work with are married to higher wage earners. When you're the police, higher wage earners aren't hard to find.


Not so much these days, I know plenty that make 6 figures or close to it when they work a lot of details along with their salary.


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## ILuvTheDesserts

I have no problem with dating a woman who made more than me since I'd like to think that I'm secure enough with myself to know that the bottom net amount isn't what makes a person !?

If anything most folks thought that my wife now made more money than me since she's a registered nurse and with her overtime she does make a pretty penny. I'm blessed since I have a very good position with good pay and I do make more than the Mrs.  not that really matters to me though.


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## unbelievable

roostr said:


> Not so much these days, I know plenty that make 6 figures or close to it when they work a lot of details along with their salary.


Yippee, for only 100 hours a week, they earn close to six figures. Must be union cops up north. In Tennessee, if you have a badge that doesn't say "Chief" and you bring down over $100K, you're probably a step away from being indicted. After spending my life putting people in prison, I'm not all that anxious to live there.


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## Enginerd

If she was in the same tax bracket or just marginally higher and earned her money without family help then yes. If she made 2x my salary then no way. That would put her in the executive ranks of a major corporation or some other massively demanding job that would ultimately create too much space and damage our relationship. Anyway I will only marry once.....


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## unbelievable

If she made twice as much as me, I'd massage her feet twice as long.


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## 2ntnuf

Ah, when we got married, our incomes were similar and everything was decent. When she had more money than me, she allowed issues to creep into her mind like, "he never made anything of himself, he never tried to accomplish anything, he is a burden". All of these could be true. Sometimes they were and sometimes not, throughout our marriage. In the end, many of those thoughts came out in resentful language and actions that proved I wasn't worth her time, even though I was before she started having more income. No, I don't know what her income was. I wasn't privvy to much info beyond what's for dinner or were the dishes done? I felt what I think it must feel like for many SAHM's. It's definitely a libido killer. When we were relatively equal, I was most happy. I wanted to share in all things and do things for her. Of course, she had a different attitude about me, as well. 

I don't think I would consider dating someone out of my social sphere. As romantic as that might seem, it's setting myself up for pity, servitude and disrespect. You better be good in bed and not lose your "girlish figure" men. It's really sad that I think that way now.


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## WorkingOnMe

No I wouldn't. Not today anyway. When we first met she made more. I was in the service. I remember her grandmother telling her I'd be a good investment which I thought was mildly insulting. But then she was right. I made 20x my wife last year. I don't think I could handle it the other way around.


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## Anonymous07

My husband and I actually had a short conversation about this the other day when watching the tv show Madam Secretary. I asked if he would be okay if I made more money than him and he said absolutely. The idea never bothered him and he would always be supportive of me. 



unbelievable said:


> My wife had an advanced degree when we married and I did not. I got mine and picked up another BS degree to boot. Not like it's particularly hard. It's more a matter of having financing and the time. Certainly doesn't mean anyone is smarter or better than anyone else. You could have a surgeon, a lawyer, a professor, a plumber, and a waiter in the same room and the plumber or the waiter might well be the smartest person there. A degree means you have a piece of paper. One could be a surgeon earning six figures one week and a penniless mentally ill dependent the next. Playing "who earns the most" is a dangerous game because roles can easily change.


"C's get degrees" :rofl:

I know a number of people with degrees, who are not the most intelligent individuals. Both my husband and I have degrees, so we're pretty even there. I was offered a great job at the hospital, but turned it down since I was pregnant at the time and we planned on me being a SAHM. If I had taken the job, I would have earned considerably more than my husband. I wouldn't think any less of my husband had I taken that job and love him all the same. I know he was okay with the idea, but it was just bad timing. 

I remember a woman who made twice what her husband made and threw it in his face often. It was horrible. Then, when the recession hit, she lost everything. In the blink of an eye, it was gone. They were in the middle of divorcing since she had thought he was beneath her, but then she went crawling back to him at that point. Sad.


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## RandomDude

I have no degree, and a police check would hampen my employment opportunities anyway. Still, I'm happy to have achieved financial freedom before 30 so yay! And it's all legit too!

My ex herself came from a wealthy background, and yes that caused problems in itself, as her friends and family considered dating me akin to dating "downwards" due to my lack of education and seemingly inability to provide. If anything it inspired me to make something for myself which I did over the years to shut them all up, even if it took some insane years of 84 hr work weeks that I have no intention to repeat!

But there's a quality that my ex had that other women didn't - independence and stubborness. She stood by me when the whole world was against our relationship, most women would rather avoid such hardship and challenges especially when other less risky prospects are available.

Which is what leads me to my point: Yes I would date a woman who was wealthier than I BUT only if she shows such a quality. If not I'd rather not risk the inevitable breakup when the influence of her friends and family becomes too much for her to bear. Remember, external influence also comes to play in such relationships with differing wealth, class, background or upbringing.

So it's not that I would ever be intimidated by a woman who is wealthier than I, but I would question her ability to weather the external pressure to break up due to our differences.


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## notmyrealname4

There were a few years in the beginning of our relationship-marriage, where I made a bit more.

Most of the time, we made about the same.

He didn't work a few years. It didn't bother me that he didn't work. It was just really lean and scary, 'cause I don't make very much.

Then he started to make more.

Now, I stay at home. Not forever, just for the timebeing.

I'm pretty sure he likes making more than me. He's that traditional.

There was one time where I inherited some money. (It was just enough to set-up-on-your-own; if you were so minded). I used it to pay off our bills and fix up the car, replace worn out furniture, etc.

At the time, he actually said to me, "I guess you could leave me now if you wanted"

I'll never forget it.


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## 2ntnuf

Insecurity...a libido killer.


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## heartsbeating

If I made more than my husband, he'd go for the Aston Martin. And he'd be more than fine with that!


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## newbees

I don't care if she made more than me. Money is a material the important thing is loving each other.


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## Pollo

I don't think I would. Not that I would be insecure but the vast majority of women won't respect you if you make less than them. One way or another I'm sure that would end up causing some sort of a problem. 

Also, I'm not saying it's unfair for women to want someone that makes more than them, they're naturally attracted to good providers.


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## murphy5

this is all a red herring. It matters not who makes more money.

things that DO matter:
if the person making more feels somehow "entitled to more stuff". such as woman makes more, so she buys herself expensive clothes, a car, trips, while hubby's income pays the mortgage and he has little left to party with.

If the spouse making more treats the other souse as somehow inferior...like refusing to do their share of the household chores, etc.

If the spouse making more, spends more time at work, and the other spouse ends up taking care of kids most of the time, AND 1st spouse does not show a LOT of appreciation for that. If is is a SAHD....you can bet he would rather be golfing/hunting/fishing/riding is motorcycle, rather than picking kids up at the bus stop every day. TO make light of that would kill a marriage in no time at all


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## john117

drerio said:


> Same for those in academia. As the sad joke goes, what's the difference between a large pizza meal and a professor? The pizza meal can feed a family of four.



I chose industry instead of academia as did my wife after our doctorates but not because of salaries... In industry we are stuck salary wise just as well as we are too specialized or refuse to work gulag hours... Or refuse to jump ship every few years.

But this brings me to my answer. No, I don't have a problem if my wife earns more than me. She does. I make 10-15% more than her and yet I'm the "slacker" because I refuse to work said gulag hours.


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## Tommy518

Yup! Got no problem with that. My GF makes well into six figures and almost twice what I do. My Ex wife did too. I do okay at around $75k, but I like to be with educated and intelligent women. I know we are intellectually matched and neither of us could care less who makes more money. We still split the expenses pretty evenly, and she has other draws on her income (kids) that I don't have, so things even out. I still run the show in bed and she likes it that way, and we both have equal respect for each other, so it has no effect on my identity as a man.


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## Mr The Other

Tommy518 said:


> Yup! Got no problem with that. My GF makes well into six figures and almost twice what I do. My Ex wife did too. I do okay at around $75k, but I like to be with educated and intelligent women. I know we are intellectually matched and neither of us could care less who makes more money. We still split the expenses pretty evenly, and she has other draws on her income (kids) that I don't have, so things even out. I still run the show in bed and she likes it that way, and we both have equal respect for each other, so it has no effect on my identity as a man.


How was the decision making when it came to financial matters? Did/do you have a say?


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## Tommy509

Mr The Other said:


> How was the decision making when it came to financial matters? Did/do you have a say?


Well, good question. That's part of what broke up my marriage. My GF and I aren't living together, so don't really share expenses. We split meals evenly and she's good about grabbing the check if it's her turn. We've talked about how we'd split things living together.

As for my marriage, it became a problem because my Ex insisted on running the finances and spent a lot of money on things that I thought we should discuss first. She relied heavily on me giving her 2/3 of my paychecks and when I asked her where the money was going, she would say "it's complicated, I have to write everything down and get back to you", which of course she would never do. I payed a share of the bills myself and was always in a negative cash flow, which bothered me considering we made around $200k gross and weren't living an extravagant lifestyle. She also made all the major decisions around investing, the kids going to (expensive) private school, landscaping, her liposuction, etc, etc. She couldn't even give me a clear answer on how much she made, and we had been married 25 years. I could only find out by digging through her receipt drawer to find a paycheck stub. She kept most of the records in her office, so I had no access to her visa statements, bank accounts, checking account, etc. She was a CFO and saw all of this as her territory. Eventually, her financial control contributed heavily to breaking us up, and I imagine much of that was because she made more than me and felt entitled to control things. I explained my concerns and suggested many times that I take over the bill paying responsibility and she always flat out refused and became very defensive about it. 

My GF and I have discussed this already and agreed to handle everything in a very transparent way. She had a similar experience with her Ex controlling their money and is totally on board with sharing everything in a very open manner.


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## NobodySpecial

Buddy400 said:


> The mainstream reason for this is that men are uncomfortable with their wife earning more than them. This is the "culturally acceptable" reason. This is the conclusion of this article (it's just assumed, there's not even an effort to justify it).
> 
> However, I think that the bigger issue is that women are uncomfortable making more than their husbands. Having this opinion (that it may be women that have the problem) is VERY non-culturally acceptable.


I am not sure what culture you participate in. But in the NE of USA, it is not unusual in the slightest.



> After all, it's always the man's fault.


Oh brother.


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## NobodySpecial

Income and love are not even remotely connected for us. I have been the sole bread winner. I am in that position again. He has been the sole bread winner. 

As for the cooking comments going around, how could one person's skill threaten another? Yay. He can do something. Better than being lame.


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## NobodySpecial

2ntnuf said:


> Insecurity...a libido killer.


Why would WHO does the earning affect the sense of security? You either have enough to feel secure, or you don't.


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## NobodySpecial

Mr The Other said:


> How was the decision making when it came to financial matters? Did/do you have a say?


Ugh. I can't GIVE the financial matters away. I wish he would take them. I couldn't care less what he did, as long as we ate.


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## easysolution

Having been in this situation once when I was between jobs, NO, I would never have anything more than a casual relationship with a woman who made more than me.


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## 2ntnuf

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would WHO does the earning affect the sense of security? *You either have enough to feel secure, or you don't.*


Exactly. This isn't a man against woman comment. What it means is that many of us, man or woman, would like it if we each, on his/her own, made enough to feel secure, without having to rely on the other. 

My post was a comment/guess/question(sort of) to the post above it. I thought she might have felt like her libido lowered a little when she heard her SO say that. I should have ended that with a question mark. Her like of my post answered my question. She knew what I meant.


----------



## tulsy

I wouldn't have any problem dating a woman who made more money than me. 

If she made substantially more than I do, that would be great!...she could take me on lavish trips, furnish our home, take me out for dinner and drinks, buy me a new car, pay for a pool, throw the best parties, and all of the things I've previously had to pay for in past relationships.

I wouldn't take her for granted.


----------



## treyvion

I would. Especially if she wasn't bossy and was helpful.


----------



## 2ntnuf

tulsy said:


> I wouldn't have any problem dating a woman who made more money than me.
> 
> If she made substantially more than I do, that would be great!...she could take me on lavish trips, furnish our home, take me out for dinner and drinks, buy me a new car, pay for a pool, throw the best parties, and all of the things I've previously had to pay for in past relationships.
> 
> *I wouldn't take her for granted.*


What does that look like to you? How would you show her you weren't taking her gifts for granted? Would you do more housework so she had to do less? Would you treat her nicer? Would you get the groceries more often than you do? I'm just posting some thoughts here. I'm not saying you do or do not do these already.


----------



## treyvion

2ntnuf said:


> What does that look like to you? How would you show her you weren't taking her gifts for granted? Would you do more housework so she had to do less? Would you treat her nicer? Would you get the groceries more often than you do? I'm just posting some thoughts here. I'm not saying you do or do not do these already.


If she gave me more money I would give her more time. Just like I think a friend or wife should do if they don't have more money than you.

So I would save her time while she is working getting errands done, I would do some house chores, I would spend time on myself, making sure I'm groomed, strong and masculine so she could enjoy it. I would make her feel like I really appreciated her. Just like I think a woman should do.


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## 2ntnuf

Thanks for responding to that question treyvion.


----------



## john117

treyvion said:


> So I would save her time while she is working getting errands done, I would do some house chores, I would spend time on myself, making sure I'm groomed, strong and masculine so she could enjoy it. I would make her feel like I really appreciated her. Just like I think a woman should do.



And one day she would run into a gray haired executive with power oozing out of his loafers and that's all she wrote.

Money does things to people minds.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> And one day she would run into a gray haired executive with power oozing out of his loafers and that's all she wrote.
> 
> Money does things to people minds.


Well you would have it up to you to have the physical and other sides of the equation met. They can find those grey hair power guys and still prefer a "piece of meat" for sex.


----------



## john117

treyvion said:


> Well you would have it up to you to have the physical and other sides of the equation met. They can find those grey hair power guys and still prefer a "piece of meat" for sex.



I live in a neighborhood where 90% plus of men are grey hair execs. One could be the hottest piece of meat ever and still not have a prayer against a flabbier but power hungry exec. Trust me.


----------



## treyvion

john117 said:


> I live in a neighborhood where 90% plus of men are grey hair execs. One could be the hottest piece of meat ever and still not have a prayer against a flabbier but power hungry exec. Trust me.


Theyd still do the meat on the side.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

The men do . Lots of divorces around me. There's only two women - sisters and trust fund babes both - and neither is the man hunting type.


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## 41362

I make a very, very nice income.
My wife makes a GREAT income
It's OUR money...


----------



## Mr The Other

41362 said:


> I make a very, very nice income.
> My wife makes a GREAT income
> It's OUR money...


Then you are a lucky man.

This is a great credit to your wife, as many women would have a different attitude.


----------



## 41362

Mr The Other said:


> Then you are a lucky man.
> 
> This is a great credit to your wife, as many women would have a different attitude.


I am indeed. She's a great gal.

That said, if I didn't make 100K to her 175K it might be different. As it is, our money together is ample, but nobody holds the purse strings and either could walk away and be quite fine.

If I made 25K...that might be really tough.


----------



## Lonely00

I have been married for 8 years. My wife makes double what I make. I earn 75k/yr. About 10 mos ago she dropped the i love you but am not in love with you line. Her desire for sex is gone and she says she is not attracted to me (not physical). She also says that she does not respect what I do for a living. I have worked hard to get where I am and enjoy what I do. I take care of our kids 60-70% of the time and do half the housework or more. She travels 1 week per month. If not for me she could not have her job. I am lost, what the hell would you do in my situation?? I love her but I also love myself.


----------



## homerjay

it wouldn't bother me at all.


----------



## Happilymarried25

Lonely00 said:


> I have been married for 8 years. My wife makes double what I make. I earn 75k/yr. About 10 mos ago she dropped the i love you but am not in love with you line. Her desire for sex is gone and she says she is not attracted to me (not physical). She also says that she does not respect what I do for a living. I have worked hard to get where I am and enjoy what I do. I take care of our kids 60-70% of the time and do half the housework or more. She travels 1 week per month. If not for me she could not have her job. I am lost, what the hell would you do in my situation?? I love her but I also love myself.


It sounds like you are great husband/Dad. I'm not sure you can do anything in this situation. It's sad that your children are going to live in a broken house because of your wife. It sounds like your wife doesn't respect you. She also sounds like a princess and enjoys money more being in a family with a husband and Dad who does more than his share. The divorce rate is higher in marriages where the wife earns more than the husband, one of the reasons is the women are more likely to cheat. There is more important things in life than money.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I make more than my hb, and my income is going to continue to rise relative to his because I'm still climbing the ladder in a high paying field and I'm a lot younger, so he's looking at retiring in the next decade. I could give a crap, it's household income, I just happen to be good at and enjoy a nerd field that pays well. My hb is all about supporting v my achievements, he knows he'll benefit and he already does. He'll cook dinner, clean, and take care of everything while I work and study.

And we have regular sex. It can be done, but it takes a strong man and mutual respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

lifeistooshort said:


> I make more than my hb, and my income is going to continue to rise relative to his because I'm still climbing the ladder in a high paying field and I'm a lot younger, so he's looking at retiring in the next decade. I could give a crap, it's household income, I just happen to be good at and enjoy a nerd field that pays well. My hb is all about supporting v my achievements, he knows he'll benefit and he already does. He'll cook dinner, clean, and take care of everything while I work and study.
> 
> And we have regular sex. * It can be done, but it takes a strong man and mutual respect.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It takes an unselfish and understanding woman, too, and lots of humility.


----------



## lifeistooshort

2ntnuf said:


> It takes an unselfish and understanding woman, too, and lots of humility.


That's because for all the talk both genders still have this idea that it's the man's job to provide. At least in the us and uk. Both buy into this. I bet this is less of an issue in scandanavia where there is more equality. Who cares who make more money as long as everyone is pulling their weight and bringing what they can to the table, as well as looking to better themselves? To me it's not about money but ambition. Nobody likes a lazy bum.


Once we all embrace equality it won't matter who makes more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

lifeistooshort said:


> That's because for all the talk both genders still have this idea that it's the man's job to provide. At least in the us and uk. Both buy into this. I bet this is less of an issue in scandanavia where there is more equality. Who cares who make more money as long as everyone is pulling their weight and bringing what they can to the table, as well as looking to better themselves? To me it's not about money but ambition. Nobody likes a lazy bum.
> 
> 
> Once we all embrace equality it won't matter who makes more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, I was a lazy bum for a while at the end, but I was struggling throughout to do my part, until the end. I had many things come against me, besides myself. 

The one thing in my second marriage that no one wanted to address was this. My ex2 was pretty much a feminist. I never realized that before we married. I just looked at it as how she wanted to live and I thought it was pretty good. The part where she went off kilter a little, in my opinion, was that she didn't want to combine incomes and just work from that. I think that is a product of a lack of, trust, humility, devotion, and dedication. I also think it's not quite treating everyone as an equal. In the end, I was considered less of a man for not being able to make as much as her, and told it was solely my fault. While it is partly my fault, there were many contributing factors. No one likes to feel controlled, whether male or female.


----------



## Pooh Bear

ntamph said:


> I guess by "date" I mean a relationship really. Not talking about casual. And by more I mean *significantly* more (not incomes that are close to the same).
> 
> I voted "No" because I would feel emasculated and I've seen that these types of relationships usually don't work out. They are usually doomed. Do you agree or disagree?


I'm curious. Why would you feel emasculated? Do you know?


----------



## Forest

The first woman that delivers a Ferrari, and 120 Hp John Deere tractor wins my everlasting devotion and fidelity.


----------



## Pooh Bear

Buddy400 said:


> The mainstream reason for this is that men are uncomfortable with their wife earning more than them. This is the "culturally acceptable" reason. This is the conclusion of this article (it's just assumed, there's not even an effort to justify it).
> 
> However, I think that the bigger issue is that women are uncomfortable making more than their husbands. Having this opinion (that it may be women that have the problem) is VERY non-culturally acceptable.
> 
> After all, it's always the man's fault.


It's possible. We are all raised in this cultural mess of power and privilege. Women buy into their oppression just as men do. It's complicated. I think the important part is whenever a person becomes aware of it that we start to work to change it. Although not everyone wants to change it. So, I guess it is what it is.


----------



## Pooh Bear

EleGirl said:


> Ok, I created a poll in the Ladies' Lounge.
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...ou-date-marry-man-who-made-less-than-you.html


Excellent, EleGirl! I was thinking of doing the same thing.


----------



## Pooh Bear

Mr. Nail said:


> What I feared and what I had seen would discourage me from dating a woman who made significantly more than me.
> 
> This is what I saw: A woman earned an advanced degree while married (we can assume that he supported her financially and other wise in the pursuit of this degree) As soon as she graduated her mother started telling her she deserved more and that her husband was not good enough for her. Eventually she divorced him.
> 
> What has been the case in my own life. My wife has advanced in her career to the point where she now makes more than me. Not more than I did at my peak but more than I can currently earn. She still values me the same as when she made half what I made.
> 
> MN


Men do that too. Their wives work to pay for their medical degree and once they are getting paid six figures they dump her for a younger woman. People can be jerks either way. I guess the thing that can deter that is for someone to start dating someone already established in his or her career. Then you can avoid all that.


----------



## Pooh Bear

Mr. Nail said:


> Bravo! Ele,
> 
> But the question I had for the Ladies was "would you Marry a man Who can cook better than you?"
> 
> MN


Heck yeah. Unfortunately, neither my husband or I really like to cook all that much. Oh well.


----------



## Pooh Bear

unbelievable said:


> Most of the cops I work with are married to higher wage earners. When you're the police, higher wage earners aren't hard to find.


Plus some women love a man in a uniform.


----------



## lifeistooshort

2ntnuf said:


> Well, I was a lazy bum for a while at the end, but I was struggling throughout to do my part, until the end. I had many things come against me, besides myself.
> 
> The one thing in my second marriage that no one wanted to address was this. My ex2 was pretty much a feminist. I never realized that before we married. I just looked at it as how she wanted to live and I thought it was pretty good. The part where she went off kilter a little, in my opinion, was that she didn't want to combine incomes and just work from that. I think that is a product of a lack of, trust, humility, devotion, and dedication. I also think it's not quite treating everyone as an equal. In the end, I was considered less of a man for not being able to make as much as her, and told it was solely my fault. While it is partly my fault, there were many contributing factors. No one likes to feel controlled, whether male or female.


So what's wrong with being a feminist? I realize it's a dirty word around here, but the radical element comes from the days when women didn't have equality in any way, shape or form and men were loathe to change this, so radicalism was necessary. The radical elements will pass as generations pass, that's how social change works. It's real form simply means equality for all.

Not everyone wants to combine incomes for a variety of reasons, and this includes men. Particularly men who've already been married, and that's ok. My husband and I haven't fully combined incomes yet because we were both taking care of our own kid related issues that we brought into the marriage, but we have split things equitably. As I make more money I contribute more, and as my kids (his daughter is grown) grow up we'll probably fully combine everything. But neither of us bean counts. I think genders are still struggling with the passing of clearly defined roles.

Perhaps your 2nd ex simply didn't consider you a full partner, as opposed to "less of a man". If she did indeed use that phrase that suggests she's actually not a real feminist because in the back of her mind she believes manhood is contingent on income. It's not.
Feminism preaches equality, so to the extent a man is less of a man for not making as much money a woman is less of a woman for the same reason. But either way it's stupid because there are a variety of factors contributing to one's income, many of them out of one's control. Thus, as long as you have a full partner that's enough.....at least to me.

Now if you were a lazy bum that's on you.


----------



## 2ntnuf

lifeistooshort said:


> *So what's wrong with being a feminist?* I realize it's a dirty word around here, but the radical element comes from the days when women didn't have equality in any way, shape or form and men were loathe to change this, so radicalism was necessary. The radical elements will pass as generations pass, that's how social change works. It's real form simply means equality for all.
> 
> Not everyone wants to combine incomes for a variety of reasons, and this includes men. Particularly men who've already been married, and that's ok. My husband and I haven't fully combined incomes yet because we were both taking care of our own kid related issues that we brought into the marriage, but we have split things equitably. As I make more money I contribute more, and as my kids (his daughter is grown) grow up we'll probably fully combine everything. But neither of us bean counts. I think genders are still struggling with the passing of clearly defined roles.
> 
> Perhaps your 2nd ex simply didn't consider you a full partner, as opposed to "less of a man". If she did indeed use that phrase that suggests she's actually not a real feminist because in the back of her mind she believes manhood is contingent on income. It's not.
> *Feminism preaches equality*, so to the extent a man is less of a man for not making as much money a woman is less of a woman for the same reason. But either way it's stupid because there are a variety of factors contributing to one's income, many of them out of one's control. *Thus, as long as you have a full partner that's enough.....at least to me.*
> 
> Now if you were a lazy bum that's on you.





> So what's wrong with being a feminist?


Huh? Can't remember where I implied that. 



> Feminism preaches equality...


Yeah, that's what I thought? 



> Thus, as long as you have a full partner that's enough.....at least to me.


Yep. I gave my definition of a full partner. I don't think that idea is against equality. Do you?


----------



## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> Well, I was a lazy bum for a while at the end, but I was struggling throughout to do my part, until the end. I had many things come against me, besides myself.
> 
> The one thing in my second marriage that no one wanted to address was this. My ex2 was pretty much a feminist. I never realized that before we married. I just looked at it as how she wanted to live and I thought it was pretty good. The part where she went off kilter a little, in my opinion, was that she didn't want to combine incomes and just work from that. I think that is a product of a lack of, trust, humility, devotion, and dedication. I also think it's not quite treating everyone as an equal. In the end, I was considered less of a man for not being able to make as much as her, and told it was solely my fault. While it is partly my fault, there were many contributing factors. No one likes to feel controlled, whether male or female.


Ever read any feminists? Feminism is about equality between men and women. A lot of people don't like to share income. My husband and I do share income and I am a feminist. Maybe she had a bad previous experience with someone who was not very good with money. Who knows. 

I'm sorry if she made you feel demeaned because you didn't make more money. If you weren't combining incomes what difference did it make how much money you were making? Were you not fully contributing to the household?


----------



## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> That made me think. If that is true, what in hell was she thinking when she asked me if I was going to make her respectable? I asked if she meant marry her. She said yes. See, that's the kind of stuff that just confuses the hell out of me. We were living together for a couple years and she knew what I had, what I did for a living, etc. I didn't lie or hold any info back. I really don't get it.
> 
> My laziness was in direct proportion to my realization that I was losing the war of life. At the time, that meant losing at a combination of life with her, making something of myself, and meeting any lifelong goals, which were all clearly and quickly becoming a distant fantasy. Slap on a healthy smattering of health issues, and ongoing infidelity which I was unsuccessfully attempting to be in denial about, and voila. HELL for the rest of my days.
> 
> I'm still confused because of a lack of information from her, or any communication of a closing nature.


Did she say she was a feminist? Because I would never ask someone if he was going to make me respectable. 

It sounds like maybe you had some depression issues at the time. Is that accurate? And she was unfaithful? I'm sorry. It sounds like it was a rough marriage.  How long ago did this end? Have you considered therapy to work through your grief?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Pooh Bear said:


> Ever read any feminists? Feminism is about equality between men and women. A lot of people don't like to share income. My husband and I do share income and I am a feminist. Maybe she had a bad previous experience with someone who was not very good with money. Who knows.
> 
> I'm sorry if she made you feel demeaned because you didn't make more money. If you weren't combining incomes what difference did it make how much money you were making? Were you not fully contributing to the household?


It wasn't just that she made me feel demeaned. She actually told me, through others, that this was one actual reason she left. I did lots of things before she first cheated about two years into the marriage. I did less as she respected me less and my mental health took a hit. My physical health also contributed to the things I did not do. Some things, I could not do whether I wanted or not, for mental and physical health reasons combined. Life and trusted people can be discouraging, hurtful, deceitful, mean and vengeful. I'm sure she would say the same.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Pooh Bear said:


> Did she say she was a feminist? Because I would never ask someone if he was going to make me respectable.
> 
> It sounds like maybe you had some depression issues at the time. Is that accurate? And she was unfaithful? I'm sorry. It sounds like it was a rough marriage.  How long ago did this end? Have you considered therapy to work through your grief?


She claimed feminism after leaving. 

Yeah, it was an odd question and I asked how she thought I could do that, because we can only earn respect and I wanted to hear her reasoning. Really odd. Just another red flag I ignored, because I loved her. I'd been with her about two years at that time. We lived together for almost all of that time.

I actually don't know any women, in real life, that proclaim feminism or wear a patch on a shirt or something.  That's a red flag most women realize and avoid. (Not that it's bad being a feminist, but the fact that it looks insecure when it has to be shouted from the rooftops rather than lived.)ee

July 2012 was the divorce. In therapy, but there was much damage done to me that we are working through. It may never be resolved completely.


----------



## john117

2ntnuf said:


> It takes an unselfish and understanding woman, too, and lots of humility.



Which, by the time they start pulling serious money, is out the window regardless of gender.


----------



## 2ntnuf

john117 said:


> Which, by the time they start pulling serious money, is out the window regardless of gender.


I'm thinking there are likely some aberrations. It was true for my ex, but there were other important issues too. I don't blame it all on any one thing or even all on her. I did or didn't do my part to crush the good in that marriage. Meaning I did some things which weren't good for it. I also wish I would have done some things which were good for it, and didn't.


----------



## 2ntnuf

She's taking all of the credit for her affairs. Apologies to the sympathizers. I can and do have my own opinion based on science and what I lived through.


----------



## arbitrator

Runs like Dog said:


> Only if she wasn't an enormous tool about it.


*...kinda like my rich, skanky, conniving XW!*


----------



## lifeistooshort

2ntnuf said:


> That made me think. If that is true, what in hell was she thinking when she asked me if I was going to make her respectable? I asked if she meant marry her. She said yes. See, that's the kind of stuff that just confuses the hell out of me. We were living together for a couple years and she knew what I had, what I did for a living, etc. I didn't lie or hold any info back. I really don't get it.
> 
> My laziness was in direct proportion to my realization that I was losing the war of life. At the time, that meant losing at a combination of life with her, making something of myself, and meeting any lifelong goals, which were all clearly and quickly becoming a distant fantasy. Slap on a healthy smattering of health issues, and ongoing infidelity which I was unsuccessfully attempting to be in denial about, and voila. HELL for the rest of my days.
> 
> I'm still confused because of a lack of information from her, or any communication of a closing nature.


I can't answer that, but I agree with other posters that it's not a question a feminist would ask. I wanted to get married but it had nothing to do with being respectable, it had to do with us wanting to live together and share things which I wasn't going to do without the legal protection of marriage. I moved in with my hb and there's no flipping way I was going to pay half if not more of the bills and not have a legal right to my share of the equity, and I'd do a lot more bean counting if we weren't married. And I like the formal commitment of marriage.

Sounds like you weren't so much a lazy bum as very depressed. Both can be difficult to live with but the root causes are different.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> It wasn't just that she made me feel demeaned. She actually told me, through others, that this was one actual reason she left. I did lots of things before she first cheated about two years into the marriage. I did less as she respected me less and my mental health took a hit. My physical health also contributed to the things I did not do. Some things, I could not do whether I wanted or not, for mental and physical health reasons combined. Life and trusted people can be discouraging, hurtful, deceitful, mean and vengeful. I'm sure she would say the same.


I'm sorry. That's not right that she just left you when you were ill and needed her support the most. It sounds like all she wanted was for you to make money. Those were her values.


----------



## Pooh Bear

*She claimed feminism after leaving. *

Ok.

*Yeah, it was an odd question and I asked how she thought I could do that, because we can only earn respect and I wanted to hear her reasoning.*

I mean, I can’t speak to what she meant. But what that has meant is that a woman was having sex outside of wedlock and marriage would make her “respectable.” That's why I would never say that. Because I don't think that there is anything wrong with women's sexuality or that a woman needs to be made "respectable" through marriage.

*I actually don't know any women, in real life, that proclaim feminism or wear a patch on a shirt or something. That's a red flag most women realize and avoid. (Not that it's bad being a feminist, but the fact that it looks insecure when it has to be shouted from the rooftops rather than lived.)ee*

Well, now you do. Online.  We don’t usually wear patches. And I’m not sure what you mean by a red flag or a feminist being insecure. Actually there is such a backlash against feminism, you have to be pretty secure to claim it. 

*It may never be resolved completely.*

Don’t give up. Is it depression? If it is, that would be depression talking. Whatever it is, it will get better. Just keep at it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Pooh Bear said:


> *She claimed feminism after leaving. *
> 
> Ok.
> 
> 
> I mean, I can’t speak to what she meant. But what that has meant is that a woman was having sex outside of wedlock and marriage would make her “respectable.” That's why I would never say that. Because I don't think that there is anything wrong with women's sexuality or that a woman needs to be made "respectable" through marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, now you do. Online.  We don’t usually wear patches. And I’m not sure what you mean by a red flag or a feminist being insecure. Actually there is such a backlash against feminism, you have to be pretty secure to claim it.
> 
> 
> 
> Don’t give up. Is it depression? If it is, that would be depression talking. Whatever it is, it will get better. Just keep at it.


Yeah, we can only command respect through our actiions, imo. I don't see anything wrong with women having sex outside marriage.*(Edit: I better clarify that I mean, when she is single and her partner is single. I messed that up.) * That's their business. Is it a sin? Well, I'm not God. I have to go with what I am taught on that. I've done it, so, I guess I'm a sinner just as bad, because one sin is really not worse than another in God's eyes. 

When the convictions of a person are good for themselves and others, their actions tell the tale. No words will be significant enough to explain to those who do not agree. Actions and their results, are what tell the tale. Stuffing a good idea down the throats of those who disagree never seems to create lasting change. I'm not accusing you of doing that. I have seen it. 

Depression, anxiety, bitterness, anger, hate, ostracism, denial, real life experiences, bitter powerful people, misunderstanding, assumption, I could go on and on. I've discussed it in therapy. I've been told much of what I believe is valid. Those aren't what made me make the red flag comment. Experience and knowledge did. People are human. Even feminists are human. jk.


----------



## John Lee

It's interesting that that Atlantic article jumps to the assumption that it must only be the men who don't want the arrangement. In my experience, many women also don't like the idea of dating a man who makes less than them. 

Also -- this is just anecdotal, but I find that in my marriage and a number of others that I know, the man is more likely to make decisions purely based on earning potential whereas the woman is more likely to have other considerations. 

I earn about 2/3 of the income in my family, and it was never my plan for it to be that way, it was just that, when it came down to it, I was the one who chose the more lucrative career, and I did so based on the fact that it was more lucrative. I don't mind this arrangement, because my wife's career gives her more time to be at home with our kids. I think it's better for one parent to work less and be home more and the other to work more and earn more, rather than two parents working all the time. But my wife continues to make decisions that are not based on finances first, e.g. getting a degree for a career change that will not necessarily earn her more than she earns now.


----------



## lifeistooshort

John Lee said:


> It's interesting that that Atlantic article jumps to the assumption that it must only be the men who don't want the arrangement. In my experience, many women also don't like the idea of dating a man who makes less than them.
> 
> Also -- this is just anecdotal, but I find that in my marriage and a number of others that I know, the man is more likely to make decisions purely based on earning potential whereas the woman is more likely to have other considerations.
> 
> I earn about 2/3 of the income in my family, and it was never my plan for it to be that way, it was just that, when it came down to it, I was the one who chose the more lucrative career, and I did so based on the fact that it was more lucrative. I don't mind this arrangement, because my wife's career gives her more time to be at home with our kids. I think it's better for one parent to work less and be home more and the other to work more and earn more, rather than two parents working all the time. But my wife continues to make decisions that are not based on finances first, e.g. getting a degree for a career change that will not necessarily earn her more than she earns now.


I wonder how many men would date a woman less attractive then them? I'd bet not many. We choose based on the values we are raised with..... for women this is money and for men it's attractiveness. How many guys would date a woman who made money but was a good bit less attractive than him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> Yeah, we can only command respect through our actiions, imo. I don't see anything wrong with women having sex outside marriage.*(Edit: I better clarify that I mean, when she is single and her partner is single. I messed that up.) * That's their business. Is it a sin? Well, I'm not God. I have to go with what I am taught on that. I've done it, so, I guess I'm a sinner just as bad, because one sin is really not worse than another in God's eyes.
> 
> When the convictions of a person are good for themselves and others, their actions tell the tale. No words will be significant enough to explain to those who do not agree. Actions and their results, are what tell the tale. Stuffing a good idea down the throats of those who disagree never seems to create lasting change. I'm not accusing you of doing that. I have seen it.
> 
> Depression, anxiety, bitterness, anger, hate, ostracism, denial, real life experiences, bitter powerful people, misunderstanding, assumption, I could go on and on. I've discussed it in therapy. I've been told much of what I believe is valid. Those aren't what made me make the red flag comment. Experience and knowledge did. People are human. Even feminists are human. jk.


Yes. We are all human and all make mistakes. I wish you the best of luck with the therapy. My father, Uncle, and sister have depression, my brother has anxiety, and my sister and I have OCD. Keep plugging away. You are not alone.


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## 2ntnuf

lifeistooshort said:


> I wonder how many men would date a woman less attractive then them? I'd bet not many. We choose based on the values we are raised with..... for women this is money and for men it's attractiveness. How many guys would date a woman who made money but was a good bit less attractive than him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a hard time with this. The money thing is so shallow. I never wanted to believe women were shallow like this on a general basis. I wanted to believe only some were like this. I think it might be true for most women. This would trump the attraction of a man and everything. So much of this site's responses by women seem to have been lies. I'm really having a hard time with this. It really goes against the basic respect I have for women. I don't like that.


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## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> I have a hard time with this. The money thing is so shallow. I never wanted to believe women were shallow like this on a general basis. I wanted to believe only some were like this. I think it might be true for most women. This would trump the attraction of a man and everything. So much of this site's responses by women seem to have been lies. I'm really having a hard time with this. It really goes against the basic respect I have for women. I don't like that.


I think there are some shallow people. I think it is just as shallow to marry someone based solely on physical attractiveness. There are shallow people in the world and there are people who are not shallow. You just have to choose the ones who have depth.


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## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> I have a hard time with this. The money thing is so shallow. I never wanted to believe women were shallow like this on a general basis. I wanted to believe only some were like this. I think it might be true for most women. This would trump the attraction of a man and everything. So much of this site's responses by women seem to have been lies. I'm really having a hard time with this. It really goes against the basic respect I have for women. I don't like that.


I mean I see posts by guys complaining their wife is getting fat and they are no longer attracted to her. Is that all you married your wife for? Are you still as attractive as when you first married? That is just as shallow. It's a people thing. You just have to choose the people who you resonate with.


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## lifeistooshort

2ntnuf said:


> I have a hard time with this. The money thing is so shallow. I never wanted to believe women were shallow like this on a general basis. I wanted to believe only some were like this. I think it might be true for most women. This would trump the attraction of a man and everything. So much of this site's responses by women seem to have been lies. I'm really having a hard time with this. It really goes against the basic respect I have for women. I don't like that.



I think the are fewer women like this than men who try date up looks wise. That's not shallow? I struggle with why it's ok for guys to marry up looks wise but not ok for women to marry up money wise. Both are shallow..... everyone is entitled to standards, we all need someone we find attractive and we all need to pay bills, but how many guys have passed over very good women in favor of hotter ones? Why is that ok?

How often do we send on tam where bitter middle aged divorced guy is encouraged find a younger, hotter woman to soothe his ego. On what basis is said guy appealing to younger women? Well he's told that if he has a job and house he's appealing, implying that this is where his value is, but women aren't allowed to judge him for this or else she's shallow. But he's not shallow to use younger and hotter as his criteria. Hmm, does not compute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf

Pooh Bear said:


> I think there are some shallow people. I think it is just as shallow to marry someone based solely on physical attractiveness. There are shallow people in the world and there are people who are not shallow. You just have to choose the ones who have depth.


I must have a hell of a bad picker, cause I really really thought I found a woman who was a combination of reasonable looks, morals and principles, dedication, devotion and love. I mean, I did not take it lightly when I chose. I was too afraid to fail again. I guess she was not as committed as I was. She had that "gene" that makes it okay to decide to cheat rather than work on improving until it is determined there is no chance. Some have that weakness, whether men or women. My faith in humans is weak. Pretty much most of the ones I've known irl suck. They think it's humorous to be the way they are and brag about it.


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## John Lee

For what it's worth, I don't think caring about money is shallow. I mean yes, at some point maybe it's just a pissing contest -- "This guy makes $300k, the other guy only makes $200k" but money means financial stability, comfort, safety, ability to provide for a family. Why is it shallow of a woman (or man) to care about it? Should a woman not care that a guy only has a part-time job and makes $10K a year because that would be "shallow"?


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## lifeistooshort

John Lee said:


> For what it's worth, I don't think caring about money is shallow. I mean yes, at some point maybe it's just a pissing contest -- "This guy makes $300k, the other guy only makes $200k" but money means financial stability, comfort, safety, ability to provide for a family. Why is it shallow of a woman (or man) to care about it? Should a woman not care that a guy only has a part-time job and makes $10K a year because that would be "shallow"?


I agree, I said in my other post that people need to have minimum standards. I suppose I get tired of the shallow finger being pointed at women by guys who are just as shallow. I bet if in started a thread about how men won't date less attractive women and that made them shallow I'd get all kinds of heat. Love doesn't pay bills and doesn't necessarily turn you on. We all have standards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pooh Bear

John Lee said:


> For what it's worth, I don't think caring about money is shallow. I mean yes, at some point maybe it's just a pissing contest -- "This guy makes $300k, the other guy only makes $200k" but money means financial stability, comfort, safety, ability to provide for a family. Why is it shallow of a woman (or man) to care about it? Should a woman not care that a guy only has a part-time job and makes $10K a year because that would be "shallow"?


For me it depends on what he's doing. If he is working at McDonald's, not so much. If he is working with homeless men, then yeah, that's someone I would want to be with.


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## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> I must have a hell of a bad picker, cause I really really thought I found a woman who was a combination of reasonable looks, morals and principles, dedication, devotion and love. I mean, I did not take it lightly when I chose. I was too afraid to fail again. I guess she was not as committed as I was. She had that "gene" that makes it okay to decide to cheat rather than work on improving until it is determined there is no chance. Some have that weakness, whether men or women. My faith in humans is weak. Pretty much most of the ones I've known irl suck. They think it's humorous to be the way they are and brag about it.


How long ago did your divorce happen 2ntnuf? I'm sorry you are struggling so much right now. You sound like you are still really grieving.


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## 2ntnuf

John Lee said:


> For what it's worth, I don't think caring about money is shallow. I mean yes, at some point maybe it's just a pissing contest -- "This guy makes $300k, the other guy only makes $200k" but money means financial stability, comfort, safety, ability to provide for a family. Why is it shallow of a woman (or man) to care about it? Should a woman not care that a guy only has a part-time job and makes $10K a year because that would be "shallow"?


Opinions are like a******s. Everyone has one. 

You make good points. Would it be shallow to choose a mate based on money?

Also, what would it be when a person goes into a marriage knowing the earning capacity of their partner, but then decides that's a huge factor years later? An excuse? An oversight? A mistake? They didn't realize they could not share incomes with a spouse as was mentioned previously, by combining them into one account? 

Edit: I'm talking about a fully grown woman with a previous marriage, a fully grown child, and 43 years old, with previous experience of owning a successful business. I don't think she was stupid, or naive with men, because she wasn't a virgin and she certainly had been with many more men than just her previous husband. She even had at least one relationship before me, in which he ended up in a similar mental/emotional state as me. He made much more than me, so it seemed that had little to do with why she was with me, because she could have been with other men. Like most women, she chose me, whether I set my sights on her or not. Women always have that on their side. They choose who they want to continue to pursue them, and make just enough moves to keep them interested. At least, that's what I've encountered. 

If there was deception involved, that's one thing. If one of them was handicapped or mentally unstable, that's another.


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## 2ntnuf

Pooh Bear said:


> How long ago did your divorce happen 2ntnuf? I'm sorry you are struggling so much right now. You sound like you are still really grieving.


July 2012.

I am grieving the loss of the most important person that ever entered my life. Though I could not do enough, I did all I was capable of and begged for her to work with me to help me be the man she needed. It was too late. She, and her AP(s) did some things that changed me and I'm fighting to see the reason to live again instead of existing. Essentially, I am fighting to find meaning, value in going on trying, because, even my counselor has told me he understands how and why I feel and believe the way I do. It's like this was my last chance and she believes it's not big deal. We just need to find someone else. It was my whole life, my whole being, my whole world. I put all my faith and trust in my decision to be with her and create something that was glorious and wonderful for the rest of our lives. What an idiot I am. What a fool. What a doormat. She was not on the same page and I rugswept in an attempt to believe in us and what we could do together. It was, for a time, more than I ever thought it could be and I was willing to give my life for us. Stupid..idiot. She never was worth it.


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## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> July 2012.
> 
> I am grieving the loss of the most important person that ever entered my life. Though I could not do enough, I did all I was capable of and begged for her to work with me to help me be the man she needed. It was too late. She, and her AP(s) did some things that changed me and I'm fighting to see the reason to live again instead of existing. Essentially, I am fighting to find meaning, value in going on trying, because, even my counselor has told me he understands how and why I feel and believe the way I do. It's like this was my last chance and she believes it's not big deal. We just need to find someone else. It was my whole life, my whole being, my whole world. I put all my faith and trust in my decision to be with her and create something that was glorious and wonderful for the rest of our lives. What an idiot I am. What a fool. What a doormat. She was not on the same page and I rugswept in an attempt to believe in us and what we could do together. It was, for a time, more than I ever thought it could be and I was willing to give my life for us. Stupid..idiot. She never was worth it.


I'm sorry you are still hurting. Has your therapist worked with you on techniques to help you accept what you cannot change? There is really nothing you can do to change the past no matter who did what. Have you ever tried using mindfulness, attention to the present moment, when your mind starts to think about the past? That really helps me when I am caught in the future or the past. I have to keep coming back to the present though. My mind will start to wander again.


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## 2ntnuf

Pooh Bear said:


> I mean I see posts by guys complaining their wife is getting fat and they are no longer attracted to her. Is that all you married your wife for? Are you still as attractive as when you first married? That is just as shallow. It's a people thing. You just have to choose the people who you resonate with.


I didn't see this post. No, she was fat already. hahaha That's an over-simplification and not very nice. She was no model and neither was I. I was better looking than I am right now. My appearance has changed due to the stress I've been under, and some other things you would not believe. I have shown ID to others and they look twice or three times because I look so differently. They ask if something happened to me and I say, yes, but that is me in the picture.


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## 2ntnuf

Pooh Bear said:


> I'm sorry you are still hurting. Has your therapist worked with you on techniques to help you accept what you cannot change? There is really nothing you can do to change the past no matter who did what. Have you ever tried using mindfulness, attention to the present moment, when your mind starts to think about the past? That really helps me when I am caught in the future or the past. I have to keep coming back to the present though. My mind will start to wander again.


Acceptance means rug-sweeping to me. You cannot stop thinking of things, you can only ignore them or get busy doing something else and let those thoughts run their course without doing anything about them. I have not done a thing with those thoughts, unless you believe doing nothing is doing something. I have not yet learned or mastered anything. Reconciliation is changing the beliefs and perceptions of the past along with the present and setting up the future for the greatest chance of success. I do not desire reconciliation.


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## Pooh Bear

2ntnuf said:


> Acceptance means rug-sweeping to me. You cannot stop thinking of things, you can only ignore them or get busy doing something else and let those thoughts run their course without doing anything about them. I have not done a thing with those thoughts, unless you believe doing nothing is doing something. I have not yet learned or mastered anything. Reconciliation is changing the beliefs and perceptions of the past along with the present and setting up the future for the greatest chance of success. I do not desire reconciliation.


No, you can't stop thinking of things. Believe me, I know that. What mindfulness does, however, is bring you back to the present moment. This moment. Your thoughts are giving attention to the past or the future. When you are giving attention the this moment, you are only thinking about right now. This moment. Does that make sense? 

And while you can't stop thinking of things, you can learn to give thoughts less power. You can learn to just observe thoughts. 

Just some ideas. Those techniques help for me but everyone is different. I had a thought that the Biblical God YWHW means "I am who I am." That is very present. Not I was who I was or I am who I will be but I am who I am. That's so cool. Sorry, tangent.


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