# Winning my wife back after her affair? :scratchhead:



## Atonement

Hello everyone, I've been scanning the threads and thought I'd join and tell you my story.

Like the title says, my wife had an affair...and now I'm the one trying to win her back. Sounds a bit backwards doesn't it. 

The story goes like this (I'll keep it short), we've been together since we were 18 (25 now), we've done a lot of growing up and learning together. We've both made tons of mistakes and there's a lot of resentment between us. The past 5 years of our marriage has been amazing, until about 6 months ago she got a job at a bar and had an affair. I found out, broke the affair up (I know for certain there has been no contact between them, via spy software/voice recorders in her car). After the affair I gave her a second chance, we worked on things...we'd have extreme ups and downs, but mostly downs. I was angry, I'd yell at her, call her a whor*, but than at the same time I was so happy to have her back. On her side, I didn't feel like she was doing the heavy lifting, she was remorseful, would cry and tell me how sorry she was, but she didn't quit her bar job (her reason was b/c I was unemployed, but I now have a job), never tried to set up marriage counseling, I had to give her books on recovering from an affair. 

Anyhow, about 2 months ago she came out and told me that she just didn't want to be with me anymore, that she loved me but wasn't in love with me. This felt like another knife to the heart, I felt like I gave her this second chance and this is how she repays me. But on the other hand I can understand, she's tired of reliving her affair everyday and talking about it non stop (I went about our recovery all wrong I realize now). At this point she has no desire to try and fix things, she feels like with all the pain and resentment it's impossible. 

So during this time, we were still living together with our children, but than we went out one night for her friends birthday. While her friend was drunk she told me that her and my wife had a sexual encounter while they were drunk 2 years ago (she used a sex toy on my wife), when my wife heard her tell me this her stomach dropped (I probably wouldn't have even cared if she was just honest with me). So 20 minutes later I can't find my wife, she's wasted, I look around the small bar and eventually find her in the bathroom naked with her girl friend? Than my stomach dropped, it's like my wife's turned into a complete different person? Next two days I dont talk to her, she doesnt apologize, she goes out with the same friend and I tell her not to come home if shes goin out with her. So she ends up staying at some guys house with her friend (claims she didnt do anything). That night I packed up all of her stuff and put it on the lawn and she's been living with her dad since than. 

I was hoping sending her to her dads would have woken her up, but it hasn't. I still let her come over here and stay the night, spend time with the kids. We still go out as a family and do fun things. We still have sex, even though I'm the one initiating it. She's not affectionate to me (unless shes drunk). She doesn't say I love you anymore, unless I say it first. 

After all this, I still love her and want her back. She was an amazing wife and mother for so long and I took her for granted, I didn't deserve her during our marriage...but now I'd like a chance to make up for that more than anything...its sad its taken this to wake me up...(her affair is a complete separate issue, there's no excuse for that in my book), but in her eyes it's to little to late, shes already given up. We've had some emotional nights, she's cried, I've told her I'd be willing to do whatever it takes to make this work, that I want our family to stay together, that I believe we can come out of this and have a stronger healthier relationship, and for that to happen we'd both have to forgive each other and let go of the resentment. She says, "it's impossible to start over, all that pain and resentment will always be there," and she say's, "I just can't do this anymore". 

I feel like she has all the power, I guess usually the person that cares the least has the power. I f'd up bad during our marriage, but she had the affair...probably as a way to exit the marriage. All I want is a second chance, for us to learn from this and grow. So the question is how do I make that happen? I've read the 180, and I feel like I've been going about it the wrong way. I always try to talk about our problems and talk sense into her, make her realize what she's throwing away (she hates it), I tell her how I feel, I tell her what I want, tell her that I'm willing to do what it takes to save our marriage and family, I'm affectionate to her and loving. Today I told her she could move back in if she wanted too, that it'd be good for the kids. That I think we should live together during the holidays and at least see how it goes...she said "I don't know, I'll have to think about it". I feel like if she's here it would be easier to work on things. I'd do it right this time, stop talking about our problems, no more yelling at her or belittling her, just be positive and fun, remind her of why we feel in love, etc. 

A lot of you are probably thinking this is a horrible relationship and why would anyone want to save it, but I have my reasons. She's always been there for me and I love her deeply, I f'd up and so had she. I just want to put it all behind me and start over, the question is how do I get her to want to do that?

If she doesn't want to move back in, I think my only other alternative is the 180 and to man up...I realize I've been a bit of a doormat in a lot of ways. I do the 180 and start seeing progress, things get better...than I ruin it by trying to talk about our relationship and its like hitting the reset button. We have an amazing night and I think it means something, but to her it was just a "fun night". Any advice is helpful, thanks...


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## Chris989

Atonement said:


> Hello everyone, I've been scanning the threads and thought I'd join and tell you my story.
> 
> Like the title says, my wife had an affair...and now I'm the one trying to win her back. Sounds a bit backwards doesn't it.
> 
> The story goes like this (I'll keep it short), we've been together since we were 18 (25 now), we've done a lot of growing up and learning together. We've both made tons of mistakes and there's a lot of resentment between us. The past 5 years of our marriage has been amazing, until about 6 months ago she got a job at a bar and had an affair. I found out, broke the affair up (I know for certain there has been no contact between them, via spy software/voice recorders in her car). After the affair I gave her a second chance, we worked on things...we'd have extreme ups and downs, but mostly downs. I was angry, I'd yell at her, call her a whor*, but than at the same time I was so happy to have her back. On her side, I didn't feel like she was doing the heavy lifting, she was remorseful, would cry and tell me how sorry she was, but she didn't quit her bar job (her reason was b/c I was unemployed, but I now have a job), never tried to set up marriage counseling, I had to give her books on recovering from an affair.
> 
> Anyhow, about 2 months ago she came out and told me that she just didn't want to be with me anymore, that she loved me but wasn't in love with me. This felt like another knife to the heart, I felt like I gave her this second chance and this is how she repays me. But on the other hand I can understand, she's tired of reliving her affair everyday and talking about it non stop (I went about our recovery all wrong I realize now). At this point she has no desire to try and fix things, she feels like with all the pain and resentment it's impossible.
> 
> So during this time, we were still living together with our children, but than we went out one night for her friends birthday. While her friend was drunk she told me that her and my wife had a sexual encounter while they were drunk 2 years ago (she used a sex toy on my wife), when my wife heard her tell me this her stomach dropped (I probably wouldn't have even cared if she was just honest with me). So 20 minutes later I can't find my wife, she's wasted, I look around the small bar and eventually find her in the bathroom naked with her girl friend? Than my stomach dropped, it's like my wife's turned into a complete different person? Next two days I dont talk to her, she doesnt apologize, she goes out with the same friend and I tell her not to come home if shes goin out with her. So she ends up staying at some guys house with her friend (claims she didnt do anything). That night I packed up all of her stuff and put it on the lawn and she's been living with her dad since than.
> 
> I was hoping sending her to her dads would have woken her up, but it hasn't. I still let her come over here and stay the night, spend time with the kids. We still go out as a family and do fun things. We still have sex, even though I'm the one initiating it. She's not affectionate to me (unless shes drunk). She doesn't say I love you anymore, unless I say it first.
> 
> After all this, I still love her and want her back. She was an amazing wife and mother for so long and I took her for granted, I didn't deserve her during our marriage...but now I'd like a chance to make up for that more than anything...its sad its taken this to wake me up...(her affair is a complete separate issue, there's no excuse for that in my book), but in her eyes it's to little to late, shes already given up. We've had some emotional nights, she's cried, I've told her I'd be willing to do whatever it takes to make this work, that I want our family to stay together, that I believe we can come out of this and have a stronger healthier relationship, and for that to happen we'd both have to forgive each other and let go of the resentment. She says, "it's impossible to start over, all that pain and resentment will always be there," and she say's, "I just can't do this anymore".
> 
> I feel like she has all the power, I guess usually the person that cares the least has the power. I f'd up bad during our marriage, but she had the affair...probably as a way to exit the marriage. All I want is a second chance, for us to learn from this and grow. So the question is how do I make that happen? I've read the 180, and I feel like I've been going about it the wrong way. I always try to talk about our problems and talk sense into her, make her realize what she's throwing away (she hates it), I tell her how I feel, I tell her what I want, tell her that I'm willing to do what it takes to save our marriage and family, I'm affectionate to her and loving. Today I told her she could move back in if she wanted too, that it'd be good for the kids. That I think we should live together during the holidays and at least see how it goes...she said "I don't know, I'll have to think about it". I feel like if she's here it would be easier to work on things. I'd do it right this time, stop talking about our problems, no more yelling at her or belittling her, just be positive and fun, remind her of why we feel in love, etc.
> 
> A lot of you are probably thinking this is a horrible relationship and why would anyone want to save it, but I have my reasons. She's always been there for me and I love her deeply, I f'd up and so had she. I just want to put it all behind me and start over, the question is how do I get her to want to do that?
> 
> If she doesn't want to move back in, I think my only other alternative is the 180 and to man up...I realize I've been a bit of a doormat in a lot of ways. I do the 180 and start seeing progress, things get better...than I ruin it by trying to talk about our relationship and its like hitting the reset button. We have an amazing night and I think it means something, but to her it was just a "fun night". Any advice is helpful, thanks...


Hi,

Firstly from what I understand, the "180" (I hate that name) is as much about preparing you for separation as it is about trying to get your wife back - it's more or less an "all or nothing" thing.

It does sound like it might be something for you to try temporarily but I would give it a time limit - say 2 weeks - and if it isn't working stop.

The involvement of another woman makes your situation... interesting. You would normally have a lot of talk about "alpha" males by now but I am guessing that will stump that particular angle.

Your wife sounds lost more than anything. Have you suggested IC or MC?

My heart goes out to you. Keep posting.


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## Atonement

I have suggested MC, but from what I've read...unless the other person wants to work on the marriage...it's a waste of money. At this point she doesnt want to work on it. But I agree, she is lost. I wish I could just shake her and wake her up!


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## Shaggy

Your wife is still hooking up and cheating. It's quite obvious. You may have possibly stopped the one affair, but their is at least one more actively going on. It may be tied to the bar she is working at, or with this girl, or even possibly several people, but I guarantee she is still actively cheating.

You booting her out only gave her the freedom to hook up more easily.

What you failed to do is truly end the cheating.

Did you expose the affair to her friends and family?
Did she write a NC letter?
Did she give you full access to email fb and her phone
Did she give you full transparency to where she is and who she is with?

She should have quit her job nice that is where contact with OM was originated and maintained.

Actually stop the affair and you might get her back, but she sounds like she is very deeply into this new open sex lifestyle.


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## Chris989

Ah. You are correct that MC without both engaging fully is a waste.

Then you must take positive action. You know that what you are doing is not working.

Either up the ante on trying to win her back by going super romantic - Richard Gere in Pretty Woman style - or do the 180.

Now the interesting thing is that no one seems to talk about the Richard Gere option and I am being dead serious about this.

It *can* work and it might be less risky than the "180" although if you fail you will feel really, really dumb and to some people that is more risky than a spouse simply walking away after getting p1ssed off with the "180" being pulled.

I would like to see what others think about this suggestion and I challenge those that reply not to use a Greek alphabet letter in doing so


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## Chris989

Shaggy said:


> Your wife is still hooking up and cheating. It's quite obvious. You may have possibly stopped the one affair, but their is at least one more actively going on. It may be tied to the bar she is working at, or with this girl, or even possibly several people, but I guarantee she is still actively cheating.
> 
> You booting her out only gave her the freedom to hook up more easily.
> 
> What you failed to do is truly end the cheating.
> 
> Did you expose the affair to her friends and family?
> Did she write a NC letter?
> Did she give you full access to email fb and her phone
> Did she give you full transparency to where she is and who she is with?
> 
> She should have quit her job nice that is where contact with OM was originated and maintained.
> 
> Actually stop the affair and you might get her back, but she sounds like she is very deeply into this new open sex lifestyle.


I suspect, by reading between the lines, that the OP's WW will simply tell him to p off if he asks for the above.


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## Complexity

I think you married way too young. Her work environment is a constant reminder to the life she wished to have. She's sowing her wild oats. If there weren't kids involved, I would've told you to cut your losses and move on.


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## lordmayhem

Shaggy said:


> Your wife is still hooking up and cheating. It's quite obvious. You may have possibly stopped the one affair, but their is at least one more actively going on. It may be tied to the bar she is working at, or with this girl, or even possibly several people, but I guarantee she is still actively cheating.
> 
> You booting her out only gave her the freedom to hook up more easily.
> 
> What you failed to do is truly end the cheating.
> 
> Did you expose the affair to her friends and family?
> Did she write a NC letter?
> Did she give you full access to email fb and her phone
> Did she give you full transparency to where she is and who she is with?
> 
> She should have quit her job nice that is where contact with OM was originated and maintained.
> 
> Actually stop the affair and you might get her back, but she sounds like she is very deeply into this new open sex lifestyle.


:iagree:

Either the old affair has resumed or there is a new one(s). This is why she won't commit to the marriage. Otherwise, she'd be begging to come home to her family and children. She's living in the high of her affair and partying like a single woman, and all this time you're living as the back up plan.


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## Atonement

I maybe naive, but I don't think she's cheating. She has confessed that she flirts at work. But it's quite obvious that she's getting to that point of starting other relationships with men, that's why I'd like to get her back before it's to late.

The man she had an affair with is completely out of the picture, his wife nows, she has gps on his phone, I stay in contact with her.

As for my wife...

Yes I exposed the affair, she was humiliated
Yes she wrote a NC letter
Yes I still have full access to her email, fb, and her phone. Although after I kicked her out one of the first things she did was buy a new phone, which she has since returned. Her excuse was she was tired of me constantly tracking her on gps and looking through her phone calls.
Yes she DID give me full transparency, and she basically still does. That night she stayed at the guys house, she told me she was there (I'm still not sure I trust her that nothing happened, she was wasted, she was with her friend and two guys...her friend was dating the one guy and the other guy has a gf who I wrote on fb as well).

The OM does not go to her job anymore, his wife makes sure of that...the OM basically used my wife for sex and threw her away after he was caught, so she has zero interest in him. So it's not him I'm worried about, but there easily could be someone new.

She has since turned her gps off on her phone, but I can still see who she's texting and talking too...no suspicious numbers. I have thought about buying this program called spybubble and putting it on her phone. But at this point she's not living here, she's told me she doesnt want to be with me, so I feel like me snooping won't really solve anything? I've talked to her about me going on dates with other women, and she seems jealous but doesn't seem to mind it.


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## Atonement

Complexity said:


> I think you married way too young. Her work environment is a constant reminder to the life she wished to have. She's sowing her wild oats. If there weren't kids involved, I would've told you to cut your losses and move on.


Agreed completely. She missed out on her wild girl freedom stage, and now that she works there with all these young single girls she wants to experience it. Its fun and exciting to her...worth throwing her family away for and a husband she resents.



lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Either the old affair has resumed or there is a new one(s). This is why she won't commit to the marriage. Otherwise, she'd be begging to come home to her family and children. She's living in the high of her affair and partying like a single woman, and all this time you're living as the back up plan.


Yea, its hard to believe that she would do this to me again after her affair. She saw the horrible pain it caused me and seemed to be genuinely sorry and remorseful afterwards. I'd like to think she learned a lesson. Her excuse for what she did with her girl friend, was that she didn't think i would care b/c she was a girl....and I have tried to get her to pick up girls for us before, but what upset me is she lied about it. Anyhow, it seems like being around me is just a constant reminder of the awful things she's done and she can't handle it anymore and wants to move on. But also I think she's excited by the idea of this new single life, without all the baggage having the freedom to do whatever she wishes. We've talked about seeing other people, and she's promised me that if she was seeing someone else or wanted too, she would tell me...and I believe her, at this point what does she have to lose?


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## lordmayhem

Chris989 said:


> Either up the ante on trying to win her back by going super romantic - Richard Gere in Pretty Woman style - or do the 180.
> 
> Now the interesting thing is that no one seems to talk about the Richard Gere option and I am being dead serious about this.
> 
> It *can* work and it might be less risky than the "180" although if you fail you will feel really, really dumb and to some people that is more risky than a spouse simply walking away after getting p1ssed off with the "180" being pulled.


Bad movie analogy. Richard Gere was being nice to a prostitute, not competing against an OM for his WWs affections. Since when does being romantic and nice to a WS ever work? You say it can work, can you provide examples? I can certainly link to threads on the cheater site and you can read their reactions to their BS trying to be nice to them.

It's not only dumb if you fail, it's dumb period. So the WS cheats, destroys the trust in the marriage, and they get rewarded for it? Seriously?

*You cannot compete against a fantasy*. The OM/OW is perfect because the WS doesn't have to deal with real life issues with them. An affair is all puppy dogs and rainbows.



Chris989 said:


> I would like to see what others think about this suggestion and I challenge those that reply not to use a Greek alphabet letter in doing so


Do you mean acronyms?  I'm retired military, I live by acronyms. Deal with it. :smthumbup:


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## Shaggy

Does her father know about the affair?

She knows you can see the emails and texts do she's not using them.


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## Atonement

Shaggy said:


> Does her father know about the affair?
> 
> She knows you can see the emails and texts do she's not using them.


Yes, her father knows. She hates living with him. And she could have possibly bought another phone to use, but I have searched allllll over, her purse, her car, I've come up with nothing. I honestly dont think she's having a relationship with anyone, but I think shes getting to that point....as I said she's confessed to flirting with other guys.

But I will admit, it was weird when she came out and told me "I just dont want to be with you anymore, I'm not in love with you", it reminded me of when she first started her affair and was lost in the fog...


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## Chris989

lordmayhem said:


> Bad movie analogy. Richard Gere was being nice to a prostitute, not competing against an OM for his WWs affections. Since when does being romantic and nice to a WS ever work? You say it can work, can you provide examples? I can certainly link to threads on the cheater site and you can read their reactions to their BS trying to be nice to them.
> 
> It's not only dumb if you fail, it's dumb period. So the WS cheats, destroys the trust in the marriage, and they get rewarded for it? Seriously?
> 
> *You cannot compete against a fantasy*. The OM/OW is perfect because the WS doesn't have to deal with real life issues with them. An affair is all puppy dogs and rainbows.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mean acronyms?  I'm retired military, I live by acronyms. Deal with it. :smthumbup:


You might well be right - I haven't read the cheater sites and I am kind of new to this whole thing which is why I asked for opinions on my opinion.

I think it might not be helpful - when the WW is so clearly on the edge of giving up - to talk about "reward and punishment". I don't have all the answers of course, but I don't believe that one method can be the right way of dealing with every problem.

I, of course, don't have statistics on anything but I also rather suspect that no one has *real* statistics on how to recover from an affair. I don't understand much in life, but I do understand statistics - especially in a social context.

_Edit: This might be another way of saying that the sunk cost fallacy works both ways.
_

_2nd Edit: I should mention that the 180, not being nice, works wonders on my WW so perhaps I should just shut up and get my coat..._

The Greek alphabet:

Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta etc.


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## TBT

Shaggy said:


> She knows you can see the emails and texts do she's not using them.


Exactly this.You only know she's flirted because she told you.You don't know what she does when she's out and about.


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## Juicer

So, your wife cheats, and you do the heavy lifting?

So...if a guy crashed into your car, and it was his fault no doubt about it, would your insurance be paying for it? Would your insurance premiums be going up?

When my stbx told me about her affair, I pulled the 180 out of...I don't really know what made me. I just went cold, and refused to talk to her. I was raging mad. 
And to some degree, I would imagine it worked. 

So I would suggest starting with the 180. 

It will make your wife reconsider. You won't be there when she wants you to be. So hopefully, she'll stew in her own juices for a little while.
And she will hopefully realize what she wants, and talk to you about maybe moving back.
And it will give you time to think about what you want. Do you really want her back? 

Because I will tell you right now, she sounds like she is still cheating. Probably one-night-stands, but I will bet money on it. 

Now, your wife is probably sad that she got caught, but she probably just wanted to rug sweep it. You didn't, (which is right, because then you be wondering why did she cheat AGAIN 5 years down the road)
But I honestly think she has mentally checked out, and unless she can realize what she wants, she won't come back. 

You will just have to wait it out. Sorry.


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## MattMatt

She is hooking up with men and women? That must add extra stress for you. Sorry that you are going through this, sorry for your kids.

Your wife might need individual counselling.


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## Atonement

She is seeing a therapist, but it doesn't seem to be helping...if anything he's probably told her it's probably best to just end the marriage.

On a side note, she's been on anti depressants for the past few years and we just lost our insurance, so she's going cold turkey off her meds (as of a week ago).

I feel like the only way for her to snap out of it is to quit her job, but with my job we wouldn't have enough money to pay the bills. Although with her experience she could easily work some where else, but she says she makes to much money working there and she likes it...she has fun. 

At this point, I have drilled her and drilled her (she's always admitted to me in the past when I've done this). I honestly don't think she's having another affair...she been here most nights and when she's not I've talked to her and know where she's at. I will say though, that by her saying "i dont want to be with you anymore" is basically what she did during her affair to make her feel like it was okay to do what she was doing. 

If she wants to move back in and I let her, should I still do the 180?
If she doesn't move in I'm definitely moving towards the 180, no more being sweet and trying the Richard Gere shiiiiit. The past few months I've been extremely sweet and loving to her, barely talking about our problems at all. But it is frustrating b/c I seem to be making progress, but than I talk to her and realize its had no effect on her. Basically I do my version of the 180, she starts being sweet, than I collapse and give in.


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## Chris989

Atonement said:


> If she doesn't move in I'm definitely moving towards the 180, no more being sweet and trying the Richard Gere shiiiiit. The past few months I've been extremely sweet and loving to her, barely talking about our problems at all. But it is frustrating b/c I seem to be making progress, but than I talk to her and realize its had no effect on her. Basically I do my version of the 180, she starts being sweet, than I collapse and give in.


Hahahaha Ok LordMayhem that's me told. Looks like I was pretty wrong then :lol:


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## warlock07

Your only chance is to detach from the situation and follow the 180. There is nothing else you can do here. Begging and pleading her to come back is only going to make you look very unattractive. And stop having sex with her when she does not want it.


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## Thorburn

warlock07 said:


> Your only chance is to detach from the situation and follow the 180. There is nothing else you can do here. Begging and pleading her to come back is only going to make you look very unattractive. And stop having sex with her when she does not want it.


Warlock07 is correct here.


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## lordmayhem

Atonement said:


> I feel like the only way for her to snap out of it is to quit her job, but with my job we wouldn't have enough money to pay the bills. Although with her experience she could easily work some where else, but she says she makes to much money working there and she likes it...she has fun.


Of course she has fun. She's the hot flirty bartender that guys buy drinks for and want to score with. She gets *plenty* of validation from males all night. Its an ego boost for her, why would she want to give that up and just be a regular wife? 

Since she won't give up this job that she loves (that fosters a cheating environment), then I don't see much you can do.


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## PBear

Something else for you to ponder...

Sometime when people have an affair, it's because something is broken in the marriage. That's no excuse or justification for the affair, and it solves absolutely nothing, but it's reality. In cases like this, ending the affair doesn't fix the root problems. And in cases like this where one of the people isn't willing to invest the time or energy in fixing the problems, you have a dead marriage. Google "exit affairs" if you're looking for more information. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WyshIknew

Could do a lot worse than read MMSL. Been following it for about two weeks or so and seeing results already.


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## Atonement

PBear-Thats exactly what I was thinking. Her affair was an exit affair...she was tired of our life, tired of waiting around for me to be a man. Now she thinks it's impossible to fix anything, especially with all the damage she's caused...she hates herself for what she's done and says that I can never look at her the same again. All I want from her is a chance to show her we can make it work, but the temptation of her new fun lifestyle is to powerful.

WyshIknew- What is MMSL?

She texted me when she got outta work, "what are you guys doing"...I've been trying not to text her first. Anyhow, I told her just hanging out and asked if she wanted to come over...she said "maybe, I'm hanging out with my girlfriend, I'll let you know"


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## warlock07

Do you think you might be a co-dependent? why do you want a woman who rejected you so clearly?


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## Atonement

warlock07 said:


> Do you think you might be a co-dependent? why do you want a woman who rejected you so clearly?


Perhaps I am. I guess I feel like I'm to blame for where we're at, I wasnt the best husband and I want a chance to make amends. She always held all the burden...and i was just "there". I love her and my family more than anything in this world...and I honestly feel like we both could learn a lot from this and come out stronger and more happy than we ever were before.


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## Atonement

So whats everyones opinions?

Do a hard 180?
Try and get her to move back in and follow Plan A from marriagebuilders? What Are Plan A and Plan B?


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## Entropy3000

Do a hard 180 as a first step to a divorce. This is so you can prepare for your future life and start withdrawaing from her.

It is very possible she does not find you as attractive as the men who hit on her at the bar. She really needed to quite that job and frankly that life style for you to have a chance. It appears she chooses this lifestyle over you. She is a serial cheater and you probably do not even want to know what else she has gotten into.

Sorry there are children involved.

I do not believe in Plan A beyond an initial discussion requesting that the WS change their behavior. Frankly I do not think Dr. Harley does either. I know I read somewhere for him that infidelity was a deal breaker. I get the premise but it does not seem to fit your situation. Plan A is to fill an empty love bank. That is not what this is about. Her love bank is being filled by others.

Your situation is not about a single affair. She is a serial cheater. Her lifestyle is toxic. She would have to NC with all her lovers AND this lifestyle for you to engage with Plan A / Plan B IMO.

I would say in my case my wife reasoned with me. So in a sense she was doing a Plan A. But in no way did she put up with my EA. I did not refuse her. To do a Plan A when the WS totally rejects the BS seems too much like being a doormat. 

It sounds like you already tried to appeal to her. She has rejected this.


----------



## Complexity

lordmayhem said:


> There was a similar story here a few months back, where the WW worked in a bar as a bar tender and the OM was one of the customers trying to score with the hot, flirty bartender. The BH, also unemployed at the time, ended up confronting WW at a hotel where she was banging OM, and he got arrested. And then his WW started posting here too. Anyone remember that?


Wolfagar? he turned out to be cheating on her all along!


----------



## HappyHubby

Yes. I don't think you should have asked her to come over. Given the power dynamic in the relationship, simple things like that will be construed as 'PLEASE come over, I miss you'. Let her ask you to visit. Show her how awesome a time you are having without her (without being obvious - important). 180 and be nice to her not needy. Repeat the mantra to yourself until you truly believe it 'SHE is the one losing out, not you'. Dont ask her about going on dates but maybe just DO it. ASAP.. like by next weekend if nothing changes. If you ask 20 girls out for coffee, one will say yes.


----------



## Entropy3000

> To insist that the wayward spouse end the affair should not be made with the threat of punishment ("I'm make you suffer if you don't end it"), but rather with the simple fact that it's the most painful experience you've ever had in your life, and if the affair is not ended, your relationship must end with either a separation or divorce. To end the marital relationship is not punishment: It's to protect your own mental and physical health.


This from Dr. Harley.

So what he is saying is that you do not control her but you control yourself and you will not put up with her behavior. This is actually part of Plan A.


Also :



> If left in plan A too long, long-term mental and physical damage can occur.


So I think you have already done your Plan A my friend.

And :



> But your effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, and even exposure, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.
> 
> Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.
> 
> So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.


A brief Plan A makes most sense to me with an early EA. But since EAs escalate quickly we are talking about perhaps a day or two. I can't fathom a Plan A when a WS is banging someone else. But that is just me.


----------



## Shaggy

The 180 is for help you detach and move on without her. To help you with the divorce. Is that your goal?

If you want to stay with her than Married Man Sex Life is a must, as is moving her back home so you can watch her.


----------



## Complexity

OP, your biggest mistake is trying to win her back, it can never happen. She has to consciously choose that her life and future resides with her children and a husband who loves her. She has to willingly give up the pseudo single life and return to her wifely duties. You both have to get over the resentments you have for each other and properly reconcile. 

You can try everything under the sun to win her back but it'll never be enough. Use the 180 as a safety parachute, to brace your heart for the worst. The 180 is about winning yourself back, not the WS.


----------



## the guy

lordmayhem said:


> There was a similar story here a few months back, where the WW worked in a bar as a bar tender and the OM was one of the customers trying to score with the hot, flirty bartender. The BH, also unemployed at the time, ended up confronting WW at a hotel where she was banging OM, and he got arrested. And then his WW started posting here too. Anyone remember that?


Ya,
I don't think he got arrested, the cops talked him into taking his kids home since his chic wouldn't come out. 

She bailed on OM, and wanted back, but BH had a hard time being 2nd choice since OM went back to his wife.

If I remember correctly, the OM didn't want the drama after he got laid.

WW got thrown under the bus but would have stayed with OM.

OM refered to WW as "cheap bartender" and WW got hurt, and she was all depressed..blah, blah, blah...........


----------



## the guy

Atonement said:


> At this point, I have drilled her and drilled her (she's always admitted to me in the past when I've done this). .


Does any one see whats wrong with this statement?

Dude let her go, if she comes back great if not......even better!!!!!!


----------



## the guy

Atonement said:


> I told her just hanging out and asked if she wanted to come over...she said "maybe, I'm hanging out with my girlfriend, I'll let you know"


We now see what her priority is, even her own kids or her back up plan...they have taken a 2nd place in her life!!!!!!!!!

Very sad.


If this isn't a good case for the 180, I don't know what is? This is no longer about your marriage but *her* kids and how she is dealing with her own children....sorry brother!

She is off the reservation IMHO!


----------



## the guy

At the end of the day you have to deside what your choice is, but again IMHO, her fun life away from home out wieghs the crap she has to deal with while at her dads......

If anything her dad needs to be on board with your goal to R and let her dad to the "bad cop" while you 180.

can you get on the same page as your FIL...even for the kids sake?


your chick is gone with regards to the marraige,BUT EITHER WAY, SUPPORT FROM OTHERS, MAYBE SHE CAN REEL HER SELF IN FOR THE KIDS SAKE....... and there by get her sh*t together with you.

IDK but it is a plan....you need a team


----------



## the guy

You need to put together a support network that will work on her when you do the 180.


----------



## the guy

One more thing, I think your chic needs a taste of what it will be like when you are no longer around.....when you wife has a taste of when you and her kids no longer need to put up with her crap and move on.
maybe a taste that will show her that you and the kids can move on with out her.

From what I've read so far she thinks you will always be around...always be around with her so called kids while she continues to behave thia way.

give her a taste that she can be replaced, just like she has replaced you.

Dude I was the a crap husband, it was criminal in what I did. But my old lady choose the easy way out and decieved me in stead of bailing. The more I phisicaly pushed her around the more she screwed around. But you know what .....I changed thru my own actions for my self, she decided to hang out with me and reap the rewards. 

My point is, its all about you, and who ever whats to hang out with you can reap the rewards of a better man that you have become.


----------



## TDSC60

When she started working at a bar she was immediately immersed in the meat market atmosphere. Young singles hooking up and partying. She got involved in the life style and liked it. Still does. Boring you and a family cannot compete with this new exciting life style. She has told you this time and time again. You keep hoping she will "wake up". The problem is that in her mind she did "wake up" and is now living the life she missed by marrying young.

You need to ignore her. She is going to do what she wants and you cannot stop her. Seeing you move on with your life without her might just get her to reevaluate what she wants out of life or it may not.

The old saying still applies. "If you love her, let her go".

Get a legal separation or go for divorce. Wish her luck with her new life with out you.

I guarantee your new life with out her will be less stressful and happier.


----------



## Atonement

the guy said:


> At the end of the day you have to deside what your choice is, but again IMHO, her fun life away from home out wieghs the crap she has to deal with while at her dads......
> 
> If anything her dad needs to be on board with your goal to R and let her dad to the "bad cop" while you 180.
> 
> can you get on the same page as your FIL...even for the kids sake?
> 
> 
> your chick is gone with regards to the marraige,BUT EITHER WAY, SUPPORT FROM OTHERS, MAYBE SHE CAN REEL HER SELF IN FOR THE KIDS SAKE....... and there by get her sh*t together with you.
> 
> IDK but it is a plan....you need a team


Ya, she's basically abandoned all of her relationships with my family...and she was really close to them. Her dad is pretty much on my side, he doesnt like her lifestyle. Not really sure what he can say to wake her up though...he already makes her life hell there. Always questions her about where she is and when she's gonna be there. Past few nights she's been stayin with this pregnant girl from work whos b/f just left her for another women. Of course my wife is being this pregnant girls shoulder to cry on and offering her advice (irony?). 

Anyhow, here's the txt convo we just had to give u a little insight on what I'm dealing with (used some of what u guys said)

Her: I think we r gonna have a slumber party night and I'll come over tomm after work. Popcorn n pillow fights

Me: Awesome, so I'm back to back up status

Her: Um no

Her: See this is exactly what I was talking about

Me: How do you think I feel, you pick ur friends over your family. I want to trust u, but you've given me no reason too. U disabled icloud, the only thing that helped me to trust u...u should be at home with ur family, not hangin out at the bar and sleeping in other ppls beds

Me: But its fine, sorry for bothering u, kick some ass in that pillow fight

Her: Another thing I'm ready to be done dealing with

Her: That was a joke, And it's just gonna be me Jess and Brit

Me: K that's fine. Feel free to turn ur icloud on than

Her: For tonight I will, this is sad though

Me: It's sad that u make it so hard for me to trust u, uve used my love for u in the pasat to make a fool of me. U like this lifestyle to much, like i said, ur a mother u should be home with ur kids

Me: Everynight I'm at home taking care of the kids, while ur off enjoying urself....I reach out to u and tell u that u can stay here so u can be around them and be a mom, but obviously u dont want that

Her: Yeah u dumped all my shiiiot on the lawn and sent me to my dads remember

Her: I'm having a girls night, nothing wrong with that, I havent had enough of them

Her: No I do, but ur making me pick that and being there along with you too

Me: B/c u cheated on me in a bathroom with ur g/f and stayed at another man's house" What would u have done if i did that to u

Me: U spend 80% of ur time w them. But that's fine, I have no problem with u having a girls night...I only wish I could trust u

Me: Ya b/c being around me, ur husband, is so awful?

Her: I didn't say that

Me: K, well dont turn ur icloud shiiit on, i dont really care at this point, uve rejected me enough. Ur right, its time I developed some self respect, i dont deserve this shiiit and neither do our kids. Have a good night

Her: OMG

Me: Uve told me how u feel, u dont love me anymore, u dont want to be with me. What more do u have to say. Somethings wrong with me and I'm done being this little fuccccking pussssy trying everything to win his wife back who had an affair and has shown him over and over how little he means to her. I shouldn't have asked u to come over, I shouldn't be affectionate to u, I know u dont want to hurt me, and I keep setting myself up. Well I'm done.

Her: I'm sorry

Me: No ur not, if u were than ud be sooo thankful for another chance to save our marriage and family. Instead ur choosing this new lifestyle that u missed out on as a kid. One day u'll be sorry, but as of now...ur not even close. Enjoy ur night

Her: Think what u want

Me: What I think is based on facts and reality, what u think is based on fantasy. I'm sorry, I wish I could wake u up and save our family, and live happily ever after....maybe if I was a better person in the past u wouldnt have self destructed. The boys say hi

Me: Ur to blinded to even realize what ur priorities are now, what hurts the most is that I'm not just ur back up plan...the kids are too. Ur babies should never be 2nd place in ur life. U promised ud never do that again. Wake the fuccccck up

Her: Ur wrong. I can't even call them cuz I'm not goin to fight with u. Tell them I love them and I'll see them tomm. Good night, Im done with this tonight

Me: I'm not fighting with you, Ive said all that I needed to say. I pray for their sake ull escape this fog and realize what uve become and turn back into the amazing mom u used to be. Nothing would make me more happy, gnight


----------



## the guy

TDSC60 said:


> The old saying still applies. "If you love her, let her go".
> 
> .


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Atonement, I didn't want to do this but you made me by thinking you can make your wife do something that she clearly doesn't want to do. Take it away Bonnie.

_Turn down the lights, turn down the bed
Turn down these voices inside my head
Lay down with me, tell me no lies
Just hold me close, don't patronize - don't patronize me

Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dark, in these final hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no you won't
'Cause I can't make you love me, if you don't

I'll close my eyes, then I won't see
The love you don't feel when you're holding me
Morning will come and I'll do what's right
Just give me till then to give up this fight
And I will give up this fight

Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dark, in these lonely hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no you won't
'Cause I can't make you love me, if you don't_

Bonnie Raitt I Can't Make You Love Me Lyrics
Songwriters: REID, MICHAEL / SHAMBLIN, ALLEN


----------



## Atonement

TDSC60 said:


> When she started working at a bar she was immediately immersed in the meat market atmosphere. Young singles hooking up and partying. She got involved in the life style and liked it. Still does. Boring you and a family cannot compete with this new exciting life style. She has told you this time and time again. You keep hoping she will "wake up". The problem is that in her mind she did "wake up" and is now living the life she missed by marrying young.
> 
> You need to ignore her. She is going to do what she wants and you cannot stop her. Seeing you move on with your life without her might just get her to reevaluate what she wants out of life or it may not.
> 
> The old saying still applies. "If you love her, let her go".
> 
> Get a legal separation or go for divorce. Wish her luck with her new life with out you.
> 
> I guarantee your new life with out her will be less stressful and happier.


Great advice, I completely agree with everything. Ive even considered trying to get her fired, but thought that would just give her more reason to resent me. Before the bar, she was a completely different person. I guess I'd like to save our relationship before it goes to far...if she's going to have relationships with other men still after everything, than I'm completely done and want nothing to do with her. Sadly letting her be free and date other people might be the only way to wake her up and realize what she's thrown away. Thus far I've been the sweet husband thats at home taking care of the kids, letting her come over whenever she wants, still showing her love and affection. I've been letting her fence sit and cake eat. When we have deep heart to hearts...about giving us another chance...she'll usually say "I just dont know", "I can't do it right now"


----------



## Count of Monte Cristo

Dude, you need to download and read 'No More Mr. Nice Guy.' I don't have the link but I'm sure someone around here has it. You also need to get 'The Married Man's Sex Life.'

And all that housework and taking care of the kids only make you look unattractive in her eyes. (In spite of what Oprah and the popular media would have you think.)

A wise TAM poster once said that:

'You won't get laid if you're the maid.'


----------



## the guy

Atonement said:


> Ya, she's basically abandoned all of her relationships with my family...and she was really close to them. Her dad is pretty much on my side, he doesnt like her lifestyle. Not really sure what he can say to wake her up though...he already makes her life hell there. Always questions her about where she is and when she's gonna be there. Past few nights she's been stayin with this pregnant girl from work whos b/f just left her for another women. Of course my wife is being this pregnant girls shoulder to cry on and offering her advice (irony?).
> 
> Anyhow, here's the txt convo we just had to give u a little insight on what I'm dealing with (used some of what u guys said)
> 
> Her: I think we r gonna have a slumber party night and I'll come over tomm after work. Popcorn n pillow fights
> 
> Me: Awesome, so I'm back to back up status
> 
> Her: Um no
> 
> Her: See this is exactly what I was talking about
> 
> Me: How do you think I feel, you pick ur friends over your family. I want to trust u, but you've given me no reason too. U disabled icloud, the only thing that helped me to trust u...u should be at home with ur family, not hangin out at the bar and sleeping in other ppls beds
> 
> Me: But its fine, sorry for bothering u, kick some ass in that pillow fight
> 
> Her: Another thing I'm ready to be done dealing with
> 
> Her: That was a joke, And it's just gonna be me Jess and Brit
> 
> Me: K that's fine. Feel free to turn ur icloud on than
> 
> Her: For tonight I will, this is sad though
> 
> Me: It's sad that u make it so hard for me to trust u, uve used my love for u in the pasat to make a fool of me. U like this lifestyle to much, like i said, ur a mother u should be home with ur kids
> 
> Me: Everynight I'm at home taking care of the kids, while ur off enjoying urself....I reach out to u and tell u that u can stay here so u can be around them and be a mom, but obviously u dont want that
> 
> Her: Yeah u dumped all my **** on the lawn and sent me to my dads remember
> 
> Her: I'm having a girls night, nothing wrong with that, I havent had enough of them
> 
> Her: No I do, but ur making me pick that and being there along with you too
> 
> Me: B/c u cheated on me in a bathroom with ur g/f and stayed at another man's house" What would u have done if i did that to u
> 
> Me: U spend 80% of ur time w them. But that's fine, I have no problem with u having a girls night...I only wish I could trust u
> 
> Me: Ya b/c being around me, ur husband, is so awful?
> 
> Her: I didn't say that
> 
> Me: K, well dont turn ur icloud shiiit on, i dont really care at this point, uve rejected me enough. Ur right, its time I developed some self respect, i dont deserve this shiiit and neither do our kids. Have a good night
> 
> Her: OMG
> 
> Me: Uve told me how u feel, u dont love me anymore, u dont want to be with me. What more do u have to say. Somethings wrong with me and I'm done being this little fuccccking pussssy trying everything to win his wife back who had an affair and has shown him over and over how little he means to her. I shouldn't have asked u to come over, I shouldn't be affectionate to u, I know u dont want to hurt me, and I keep setting myself up. Well I'm done.
> 
> Her: I'm sorry
> 
> Me: No ur not, if u were than ud be sooo thankful for another chance to save our marriage and family. Instead ur choosing this new lifestyle that u missed out on as a kid. One day u'll be sorry, but as of now...ur not even close. Enjoy ur night
> 
> Her: Think what u want
> 
> Me: What I think is based on facts and reality, what u think is based on fantasy. I'm sorry, I wish I could wake u up and save our family, and live happily ever after....maybe if I was a better person in the past u wouldnt have self destructed. The boys say hi
> 
> Me: Ur to blinded to even realize what ur priorities are now, what hurts the most is that I'm not just ur back up plan...the kids are too. Ur babies should never be 2nd place in ur life. U promised ud never do that again. Wake the **** up
> 
> no more replies....


Well done sir, well done...........

You have stated the facts and nothing else needed to be said.

The ball is in your court.

BTW, when I was going thru this crap I found my self more grounded by spending a crap load of time with my kids. For some reason the more things I did with them help. I mean just the little stuff like sitting down and having an ice cream helped me. I made the extra effort and it helped me and it helped my kids.


----------



## Shaggy

Please take this as constructive criticism: your being very passive aggressive and lashing out. 

Your freaking hurting and you've got a right to be that for sure. It's also shooting yourself in the foot with her.

First, stop throwing out shots to score points. No one is keeping score. There's no winner only loosers when you do that.

Second, what do want ?

If you want her back on the family, then stop the verbal shots and have her move home. Talk to her about acceptable boundaries of behavior and faithfulness. 

Stop telling her she is an untrusted cheater. She knows. You know.

If you need iCloud on to build trust tell her that and that of she wants to R she needs to give up secrecy and she needs to be home making her family her #1 priority.

Be clear, simple, firm. Ask her want she wants to be and for her to prove it with actions.


----------



## the guy

Guys, this thread hit so close to home.
2-1/2 years ago I was dealing with the exact same crap.
Sure its a big trigger for me but hopefully this crap works out for OP.

The chick on chick stuff, the distance form the kids, the bartender work, THE OM's!!! its just simular......

A- 
There is a shift in power when you balance your old self of uncaring and yet changing....a confidence that makes your WW think twice in what she is about to lose.

Its the confidence that me and you will need to have to let go of your ladies. Sure its a dangerous game, but I think its worth the risk. They know our capacity to not care...now its time to stop begging and pleading, but make them face the consequences for there sh!t.


----------



## Atonement

Shaggy- I kind of agree, I suppose I am passive agressive and I am taking shots. It's just so frustrating, I want her to snap out of it. But I'm sure that's part of the reason that's caused her to give up on R after her A, b/c of my aggressiveness...making her constantly relive it. I need to get over that and stop throwing shots, but at the same time I want her to know I'm upset and I dont agree with what she's doing.

Guy- its a dangerous game indeed. I'm about 90% sure that if I do the 180, start building a life without her, start having fun, working out, making good money, and force her to have the kids part time...her bubble will burst and she'll come crawling back after she's had her fun and realized the grass isn't greener. But by that time I doubt I'd want her back


----------



## TDSC60

Atonement said:


> Great advice, I completely agree with everything. Ive even considered trying to get her fired, but thought that would just give her more reason to resent me. Before the bar, she was a completely different person. I guess I'd like to save our relationship before it goes to far...if she's going to have relationships with other men still after everything, than I'm completely done and want nothing to do with her. Sadly letting her be free and date other people might be the only way to wake her up and realize what she's thrown away. Thus far I've been the sweet husband thats at home taking care of the kids, letting her come over whenever she wants, still showing her love and affection. I've been letting her fence sit and cake eat. When we have deep heart to hearts...about giving us another chance...she'll usually say "I just dont know", "I can't do it right now"


I didn't say let her be free to date other men. File for divorce and cut her out of your life. She does not want marriage and it looks like she does not want motherhood either.

"I just dont know", "I can't do it right now" are just excuses to keep you on the line as babysitter while she parties. What she really just said to you is that she is having too much fun partying with other guys and gals and does not want to come back to you. Accept this.

Go dark on her. Do not answer texts. Do not answer the phone.
You can give her updates on the kids but DO NOT TRY TO REASON WITH HER. Better yet tell her Dad how the kids are doing and let him relay the message. Do not ask what she is doing or where she is. Do not tell her what you are doing or what your plans are.

Change the locks on you house so she cannot get in.

Have her served divorce papers at her Dad's house.

Pisses me off that a mother would ignore her children in favor of a girls sleep over. Ridiculous.


----------



## the guy

Your right!! sorry but you are right!


But there is nothing wrong with that. Its her choice.

Work on getting your sh!t together for your self and see what happens...with your current chick or with a new lady..but at the end of the day you will like your self a lot better and so will your kids.

Your current chick is bringing out the worst in you....don't let that define you. Your action will prove your self and your kids will see it. Its your dumb @ss old lady that is challanged.


----------



## Atonement

TDSC60 said:


> I didn't say let her be free to date other men. File for divorce and cut her out of your life. She does not want marriage and it looks like she does not want motherhood either.
> 
> "I just dont know", "I can't do it right now" are just excuses to keep you on the line as babysitter while she parties. What she really just said to you is that she is having too much fun partying with other guys and gals and does not want to come back to you. Accept this.
> 
> Go dark on her. Do not answer texts. Do not answer the phone.
> You can give her updates on the kids but DO NOT TRY TO REASON WITH HER. Better yet tell her Dad how the kids are doing and let him relay the message. Do not ask what she is doing or where she is. Do not tell her what you are doing or what your plans are.
> 
> Change the locks on you house so she cannot get in.
> 
> Have her served divorce papers at her Dad's house.
> 
> Pisses me off that a mother would ignore her children in favor of a girls sleep over. Ridiculous.


I do accept that, but its a hard pill to swallow

Actually some old man went to her dads house asking for her but her dad told him she wasnt there. She asked me if I was serving her divorce papers...I went with it and said yes, even though I havent. She got a little afraid, asked what was in it, I told her that I get our house and all of our assets and I'd agree to joint custody...she said we'll see about that. 

Anyhow, If I do what ur saying she'll try and say that I'm trying to use the kids against her by not letting them see her. Like i'm punishing her for her not wanting to be with me...

Should I let her take the kids whenever she wants? Or should I set up a schedule?
Should I let her stay the night here anymore?
Should I let her move back in if she wants too?


----------



## Shaggy

Atonement said:


> I do accept that, but its a hard pill to swallow
> 
> Actually some old man went to her dads house asking for her but her dad told him she wasnt there. She asked me if I was serving her divorce papers...I went with it and said yes, even though I havent. She got a little afraid, asked what was in it, I told her that I get our house and all of our assets and I'd agree to joint custody...she said we'll see about that.
> 
> Anyhow, If I do what ur saying she'll try and say that I'm trying to use the kids against her by not letting them see her. Like i'm punishing her for her not wanting to be with me...
> 
> Should I let her take the kids whenever she wants? Or should I set up a schedule?


Don't play games. They only undermine her trust in your words and actions. If you will D, then do it. If you haven't tell her that.

Games are or weasels and children. It's more passive aggressive stuff.

Chart your course, state it, do it,


----------



## the guy

She has a new life style that brings out some savery guys. 

What if she tells a guy about her kids and this POS guy uses your wife...charms her to get at the kids? (it does happen).

How about she leaves your kids with some questionable poeple to meet a new guy?

What if her new boyfriend is a convict with domastic violence...anger management issues that gets him worked up on the kids,when your kids get in the way of him getting some?

Brother these are your kids, and they are counting on you while there mother is off the res. and you question the fact... you should let them go to her un supervised?


----------



## the guy

There are to many sick "F's in this world, and your wife's life style isn't the best examble for them.

You will be best cerved to spend more time with the kids and get some feed back...WITHOUT ASKING.... and see what they think about there "new mommy".


----------



## Machiavelli

Chris989 said:


> Now the interesting thing is that no one seems to talk about the Richard Gere option and I am being dead serious about this.


That's because it's hollywood bullsh!t. This is the hollywood move that works every time guaranteed:

Say Anything (1989) - YouTube

BTW, women with women never phases the Alpha or the Sigma. They do demand to watch and then do the GF.


----------



## Machiavelli

Atonement said:


> I do accept that, but its *a hard pill to swallow*
> Should I let her take the kids whenever she wants? Or should I set up a schedule?
> Should I let her stay the night here anymore?
> Should I let her move back in if she wants too?


Then swallow the red pill. Your wife can probably not be brought back into the marriage. She's hooked on the sex chemistry of the brain from new sexual experiences with new people. Your only chance is to start moving on, she certainly has. File on her ass right now.

Don't let her stay and don't let her move in. Consult your attorney on the kids. Get one tomorrow.

There is some slight chance she will want to get back with you once you start detaching, but if she does, you'll most likely have moved on.

Don't let your next wife work as a barmaid, stripper, bottle girl, go go dancer etc. It's a pretty dumb thing to do.

What kind of shape are you in? Do you get hit on much?


----------



## OldWolf57

First, you said yourself the 180 worked until you blew it.
So, stop talking about your relationship. You saw with your own eyes how well it worked.

Also, what you are not seeing is her girls nights are munch nights. You KNOW she swings both ways !!! So do you thinks she has given up on sex ?? COME ON MAN !!!

The Plan: Hard 180, File for D, Set up visitation.
No talk of coming home. She doesn't have one anymore. Everytime you mention getting back together, she KNOWS you are still the fallback.
Take that away. And for Gods sakes get rid of your guilt.
Your actions after blowing up the A was natural. You may have went a lil overboard, but thats to be expected. Or it would have been RUGSWEEPING.
Its about your kids now !! Not you not her.
She said you was there when she comes to see them, well leave until she is ready to go. Meet her at the door and wish her a good night as she leaves. And leave it at that.

You look more attractive to her not guilt tripping her and not chasing her.
Honestly, you really need to be swallowing the D pill at this time.
Do you want her after she has got VDs or hiv ???

And ALWAYS remember this,,, CHEATERS LIE even when the truth is simpler. So forget that ,,, she always was truthful.

This woman will only take another look at what she is losing when it looks like it going for GOOD.

So start the D for real and mean it.


----------



## Atonement

Machiavelli said:


> Then swallow the red pill. Your wife can probably not be brought back into the marriage. She's hooked on the sex chemistry of the brain from new sexual experiences with new people. Your only chance is to start moving on, she certainly has. File on her ass right now.
> 
> Don't let her stay and don't let her move in. Consult your attorney on the kids. Get one tomorrow.
> 
> There is some slight chance she will want to get back with you once you start detaching, but if she does, you'll most likely have moved on.
> 
> Don't let your next wife work as a barmaid, stripper, bottle girl, go go dancer etc. It's a pretty dumb thing to do.
> 
> What kind of shape are you in? Do you get hit on much?


Alright, well here's one vote on not letting her move back in. I guess I felt that if I let her move back in, 1. I can keep an eye on her....2. She'd be forced to be a mom and come home every night....3. I can do a slight 180 while she's living with me and can see the changes....4. My kids would benefit from having their mom around, which they miss dearly

But I can understand why I shouldn't let her move back in. Up to this point she has put me through hell, I offered her a 2nd chance and she basically did nothing with it, now she's back to party mode, she's told me loud and clear she doesnt want to be with me and that she's not in love with me. Although she doesn't mind going out and having fun with me, or staying at home having a few drinks and having sex. Shutting her out of my life, and in a way my kids life...would give her the freedom to do what she wants. But eventually I think she'd get tired of it and she'd realize what exactly she's done. Traded in her beautiful family in for a toxic bar/single lifestyle.

Agreed, I will never date another bartender
I'm pretty good looking and in athletic shape, I'd have no problem getting other women...and I've even considered it.


----------



## HappyHubby

If you are the primary caregiver then you set the schedule of when she can see them and where. Her dad's house seems like a good place. Definetly talk to a lawyer asap about all this. Dont tell her what your plans are for D settlement, talk to your lawyer. No point telling her that you will get the house and all the assets when its not totally up to you. She knows that. This is another passive aggressive comment. 'I get everything! This is how Ill get revenge on you!'

How are you financially to pay for lawyer and D?


----------



## Atonement

OldWolf57 said:


> First, you said yourself the 180 worked until you blew it.
> So, stop talking about your relationship. You saw with your own eyes how well it worked.
> 
> Also, what you are not seeing is her girls nights are munch nights. You KNOW she swings both ways !!! So do you thinks she has given up on sex ?? COME ON MAN !!!
> 
> The Plan: Hard 180, File for D, Set up visitation.
> No talk of coming home. She doesn't have one anymore. Everytime you mention getting back together, she KNOWS you are still the fallback.
> Take that away. And for Gods sakes get rid of your guilt.
> Your actions after blowing up the A was natural. You may have went a lil overboard, but thats to be expected. Or it would have been RUGSWEEPING.
> Its about your kids now !! Not you not her.
> She said you was there when she comes to see them, well leave until she is ready to go. Meet her at the door and wish her a good night as she leaves. And leave it at that.
> 
> You look more attractive to her not guilt tripping her and not chasing her.
> Honestly, you really need to be swallowing the D pill at this time.
> Do you want her after she has got VDs or hiv ???
> 
> And ALWAYS remember this,,, CHEATERS LIE even when the truth is simpler. So forget that ,,, she always was truthful.
> 
> This woman will only take another look at what she is losing when it looks like it going for GOOD.
> 
> So start the D for real and mean it.



Yea, the problem is after seeing glimpses of my old wife coming back...while doing the 180, I thought we were making progress. And I'd open up to her about how I felt. Tell her that I still believe in us, that we can make it work, that I'm still deeply in love with her and want to do whatever it takes to keep our family together. Well that turned out to be a bad move, just pushed her away. To her, she just enjoys being able to still have good times together (cake eating?). She constantly brings up our past and all the resentment she has for me, I tell her that she has to let go of it...that she's using it as a source of energy to justify her new lifestyle. I've apologized for my past, I've asked her for forgiveness....than she cries.

At this point I think I'm going to give her an ultimatum, or is that a bad idea?

1. Move back in, quit her job, start marriage counseling, and individual counselling. Give it till after the holidays and see if anything changes, see if we can fall in love again...and if things don't, I'll move out and find my own place. (This is the option I want).

2. I do a hard 180, stop communicating with her other than matters concerning the kids. No more letting her stay the night, no more affection (which is very hard, she's beautiful and I'm still a male after all), no more asking where she is, or trying to go on dates, etc. Work on myself and enjoy the time I have with my kids. (This would be 100x harder for me to do, would take a ton of willpower)

3. Being separated for 3-4 months, agreeing not to date or have sex with other people during this time. Instead take this time to figure things out, do MC, IC, start dating again, try to renew our past love. (She's said she would do this one, but how would I know whether or not she's with other men)

So how do I express this to her without sounding like a controlling psycho? Either you come home and quit your job or you'll have no part in my life and limited time with our children!?.....I dont want it to sound like a threat. I'd just like her to know what I want, put it out on the table, and give her a choice. I just fear that at this point, she's not ready for plan 1, she doesnt think I've changed...she doesnt wanna get trapped back in a marriage where a husband is constantly talking down to her and looking at her like a wh*re...and she's afraid all the new changes I've made won't last...


----------



## Machiavelli

Atonement said:


> Agreed, I will never date another bartender
> I'm pretty good looking and in athletic shape, I'd have no problem getting other women...and I've even considered it.


Excellent! Get in even better shape. Ripped, six pack, the whole deal. Start dressing good, like a younger you with more money. You'd be amazed at how good you can dress for little $ these days.

Where are you in the male socio-sexual hierarchy?


Have you read MMSL? If not, do so.

If you want to understand why your wife is doing this, here's a lifetime of wisdom.

This stuff may help you when you wife comes to her senses, but it will really help you in your future relationships.

Your wife is probably banging multiple guys at this point, so you really don't want her back. You also don't want her bringing her sex partners around your kids. Keep the kids at home with you for now. Later on, when the courts get involved, always be available to take the kids on her days when she has other activities scheduled for herself. Eventually, you'll have the kids full time, most likely.


----------



## OldWolf57

#2 is your best bet. She already knows what you want. She is using your past behaviour to keep doing what she is doing.
There is not one BS that didn't do what you did doing R.
So you can just forget that.
AND what ever you do, STOP making it about you and her. 
Its about your kids now. Yeah they would be better with 2 livein parents that love each other, but she has TOLD YOU its over.
Manup dude.
Why do you keep asking. You saw with your own eyes how well the 180 worked.
So work it and try to keep to it this time.

I think you see all your dreams of threesome clouding your thinking dude. Well she showed she won't share her tuna.


----------



## jameskimp

You know the best way to get her back? 

You move on.

You move and work on yourself. Physically and socially. Get ripped.

However, MOST IMPORTANTLY, talk to/meet/start hanging out with plenty of girls. Make sure your wife sees this. Post it on Facebook, say you're gonna go have dinner with someone, etc. From my experience, I cannot stress this enough. Show her that other girls that are interested in you.

We always want especially what we can't have. In your state, she has you reeled in like a fish now. Start slipping away and you'll see her chasing after you like a puppy. 

Jealousy is a powerful motivator.


----------



## MattMatt

For MC to work is like two people wanting to move a log. If they don't life at the same time, nothing will happen, except the one doing the lifting by themselves gets hurt.


----------



## theroad

Atonement said:


> So whats everyones opinions?
> 
> Do a hard 180?
> Try and get her to move back in and follow Plan A from marriagebuilders? What Are Plan A and Plan B?


I found the advice the best to kill an affair and recover a marriage on MB. Why are not using that resource?


----------



## Machiavelli

theroad said:


> I found the advice the best to kill an affair and recover a marriage on MB. Why are not using that resource?


Probably because a lot of it (Plan A) doesn't work and is a waste of time.


----------



## Shaggy

#1 is an attempt to reconcile - though I recommend that you only try it if you are willing to set firm boundaries and then file if she crosses then. such as no sex with anyone else.

#2 is D - so don't mess around with the 180 and just file. You 

#3 is failure. It's where you are at now, except you think she's fooling around (I do to) and you have no way of enforcing. So #3 should be forgotten.


----------



## warlock07

# 2

This marriage is very toxic in its current state.


----------



## dymo

Shaggy said:


> #2 is D - so don't mess around with the 180 and just file. You


The 180 should be done whether you're trying to D or R. It's not about reconciliation, it's about building the strength to do what needs to be done. Whatever that may be.


----------



## snap

Shaggy said:


> #1 is an attempt to reconcile - though I recommend that you only try it if you are willing to set firm boundaries and then file if she crosses then. such as no sex with anyone else.
> 
> #2 is D - so don't mess around with the 180 and just file. You
> 
> #3 is failure. It's where you are at now, except you think she's fooling around (I do to) and you have no way of enforcing. So #3 should be forgotten.


Oddly enough, #1 has most chances after #2.


----------



## ArmyofJuan

> At this point I think I'm going to give her an ultimatum, or is that a bad idea?


It will be pointless.



> 1. Move back in, quit her job, start marriage counseling, and individual counselling. Give it till after the holidays and see if anything changes, see if we can fall in love again...and if things don't, I'll move out and find my own place. (This is the option I want).


This will fail because she doesn’t really want this. 



> 2. I do a hard 180, stop communicating with her other than matters concerning the kids. No more letting her stay the night, no more affection (which is very hard, she's beautiful and I'm still a male after all), no more asking where she is, or trying to go on dates, etc. Work on myself and enjoy the time I have with my kids. (This would be 100x harder for me to do, would take a ton of willpower)


 This is your best bet. You need to be completely uncaring and unemotional when you communicate (avoid visual/audio, stick with txt) and ignore her 90% of the time.



> 3. Being separated for 3-4 months, agreeing not to date or have sex with other people during this time. Instead take this time to figure things out, do MC, IC, start dating again, try to renew our past love. (She's said she would do this one, but how would I know whether or not she's with other men)


She won’t agree with this (she might say she does but cheat anyway).



> So how do I express this to her without sounding like a controlling psycho? Either you come home and quit your job or you'll have no part in my life and limited time with our children!?.....I dont want it to sound like a threat. I'd just like her to know what I want, put it out on the table, and give her a choice. I just fear that at this point, she's not ready for plan 1, she doesnt think I've changed...she doesnt wanna get trapped back in a marriage where a husband is constantly talking down to her and looking at her like a wh*re...and she's afraid all the new changes I've made won't last...


Don’t give her a choice, that's been part of your problem all along. You’ve been giving her all the power and just act all butt-hurt. Time to man up and start making all the decisions instead of letting her run the show.

That means option 2. Screw the M and screw R. She is no longer your problem and move to a D. IF and that’s a big “IF” there’s a chance to wake her up it will be AFTER you have basically dumped her and started a new life without her. Once it hits her that you might actually stop caring about her and turned your back on her THEN she may come crawling back like so many tend to do.

They almost NEVER wake up until you are gone and its too late so you need to work to that end. As long as she knows you'll be there for her she won't change. This isn't something you can tell her, telling her anything is a mistake. Silence will be your biggest tool, the little she knows about what you are thinking the better.


----------



## Emerald

A woman who abandons her children can never be trusted again.

I think she is mentally ill.

For your own sanity & the emotional well being of your children, please file for divorce to protect yourself & try to get full custody.


----------



## SadandAngry

Number 2 and don't look back. Take care of yourself, and take care of your boys.


----------



## walkonmars

OP
You find it difficult to resist her sexually. But consider this, at present she probably not only feels the same about a few of her "friends" but likely acts on this - and often. 

So next time you feel the urge to have sex w her your putting your health in danger. Not only is this not good for you - it's not good for your kids.

Life is short - don't make it shorter.


----------



## Atonement

Here's a quick update:

Last night after work she come home, she was in a good mood which surprised me from the "text" fight we had (which I posted on here a few pages back). She was being very sweet and wanted to take me and the boys out to dinner. We had a great time at dinner, good conversations. She initiated affection, rubbed my leg, kissed me etc. On the car ride home she asked me, "so are we gonna have sex tonight". She hasn't wanted to have sex with me in months? She was acting like the person I used to know, the one I feel in love with. Anyhow, we went home...played with the kids. Later in the night we had sex and feel asleep. 

How frustrating can women be? I'm not sure if she's trying to manipulate me or if she's just utterly confused and lost. One moment she's distant and cold, the next she's loving and affectionate? 

I think one possibility is that we lost our health insurance, so she's been going cold turkey from her anti-depressants she was on...and she's no longer on birth control (yes, I used a condom). So maybe her sex drive is picking up? What do you guys think? Also, I plan on putting this spybubble program on her phone, seem's pretty intense...does anyone have any experience with this program?






Before we left for dinner I handed her the "ultimatum" we had previously spoke about on here...

1:
*We end contact besides matters concerning the kids, no more going out together as a family or having "fun" nights
*You live at your dads and do not stay at our home
*We set up a schedule for you to have the boys, for now it can be Fri-Sat until you find a place closer where they are able to go to school, than we can figure something else out, I'm fine with 50/50 custody
*We start the divorce process

2:
*You move back into our home until the end of the holidays
*We set firm boundaries, complete honesty, no staying out all night, no flirting, no dating, no sexual relationships. If one of these boundaries are broken, than we will immediately move to the alternative (plan 1)
*You can still have the freedom to go out and spend time with your friends, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and trust you...but you must enable the gps on you phone and immediately respond to my calls/texts
*You agree to quit your job within a month and find a new one
*We both parent the children together and help out with childcare since we're both working
*No fighting or yelling at one another, no talking about relationship problems unless otherwise agreed upon
*We enjoy our time together as a family without any expectations of solving our marital problems, we just try to enjoy each day and respect each other and the boundaries we've set
*If after this time, nothing has changed and our marriage is beyond repair, I will move out and we can begin the divorce process


Whichever of these choices you think best, I will respect you're decision. I will always have a place for you in my heart and I will always cherish the moments we've shared together. You were there for me when no one else was and I will never forget that.


What do you guys think about that? She read it and we didn't talk about it last night. I think I'm putting a lot out there to give her a chance I'm not sure she's ready for.


----------



## lovelygirl

You wrote it?
I think ultimatums like this one have a better impact and are more effective when they're said face to face, calmly and firmly. It would make her take it more seriously and she'd really think you mean business.
Having it written on a piece of paper makes the ultimatum loose its importance, somehow.
If I were the cheating spouse, that's how I'd see it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

Atonement said:


> Here's a quick update:
> 
> Last night after work she come home, she was in a good mood which surprised me from the "text" fight we had (which I posted on here a few pages back). She was being very sweet and wanted to take me and the boys out to dinner. We had a great time at dinner, good conversations. She initiated affection, rubbed my leg, kissed me etc. On the car ride home she asked me, "so are we gonna have sex tonight". She hasn't wanted to have sex with me in months? She was acting like the person I used to know, the one I feel in love with. Anyhow, we went home...played with the kids. Later in the night we had sex and feel asleep.
> 
> How frustrating can women be? I'm not sure if she's trying to manipulate me or if she's just utterly confused and lost. One moment she's distant and cold, the next she's loving and affectionate?
> 
> I think one possibility is that we lost our health insurance, so she's been going cold turkey from her anti-depressants she was on...and she's no longer on birth control (yes, I used a condom). So maybe her sex drive is picking up? What do you guys think? Also, I plan on putting this spybubble program on her phone, seem's pretty intense...does anyone have any experience with this program?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Before we left for dinner I handed her the "ultimatum" we had previously spoke about on here...
> 
> 1:
> *We end contact besides matters concerning the kids, no more going out together as a family or having "fun" nights
> *You live at your dads and do not stay at our home
> *We set up a schedule for you to have the boys, for now it can be Fri-Sat until you find a place closer where they are able to go to school, than we can figure something else out, I'm fine with 50/50 custody
> *We start the divorce process
> 
> 2:
> *You move back into our home until the end of the holidays
> *We set firm boundaries, complete honesty, no staying out all night, no flirting, no dating, no sexual relationships. If one of these boundaries are broken, than we will immediately move to the alternative (plan 1)
> *You can still have the freedom to go out and spend time with your friends, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and trust you...but you must enable the gps on you phone and immediately respond to my calls/texts
> *You agree to quit your job within a month and find a new one
> *We both parent the children together and help out with childcare since we're both working
> *No fighting or yelling at one another, no talking about relationship problems unless otherwise agreed upon
> *We enjoy our time together as a family without any expectations of solving our marital problems, we just try to enjoy each day and respect each other and the boundaries we've set
> *If after this time, nothing has changed and our marriage is beyond repair, I will move out and we can begin the divorce process
> 
> 
> Whichever of these choices you think best, I will respect you're decision. I will always have a place for you in my heart and I will always cherish the moments we've shared together. You were there for me when no one else was and I will never forget that.
> 
> 
> What do you guys think about that? She read it and we didn't talk about it last night. I think I'm putting a lot out there to give her a chance I'm not sure she's ready for.


I think that, regardless of what anyone says now, you have given her this and must follow through.


----------



## Atonement

Well we've previously talked about it, I just wanted to write it out so it was clearly defined. She took the paper with her when she left for work today, no decisions yet.

Also I kind of f'd up. While she was in the shower I turned her gps on, when she went to work she noticed I turned it on and sent me a text saying she doesnt appreciate me sneaking and turning it on. I told her I turned it on to see if she'd immediately check to see if it was on, which she did. She said an icon shows up on her phone telling her its on, thats how she knew. I told her if she has nothing to hide than why does it matter? She said this is part of the reason she hasn't wanted to work on things, she doesnt like being constantly tracked. I told her that she has to understand where I'm coming from, after everything she's done. She said she does and she'll leave it on for now.

Still I think I came off as a little needy after we shared a good night together.


----------



## WyshIknew

Sorry for replying so late.

MMSL is married mans sex life.

Very good book absolute eye opener for me.

Even if, as some do, you don't agree with the alpha/beta thing it works.
Even down to the rationalisng hamster in her head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

Do't try to snoop behind her back. Yes it does make you look weak and needy. She will have to offer it.


----------



## Atonement

warlock07 said:


> Do't try to snoop behind her back. Yes it does make you look weak and needy. She will have to offer it.


Agreed, it was a bad move on my part. I had being doing a slight 180, expressed to her how I felt the prior night. She comes home the next day and is showing me all kinds of affection and interest I haven't seen for months. Than I take 3 steps back by sneaking and turning her gps on, def a beta male trait. I suppose after posting on here, all the advice I have been given has made my suspicions grow quite a bit, that perhaps she is cheating on me and seeing someone else, which could very well be happening (even though I didn't think it is, I thought if she remained on her current path than of course it would happen eventually). So before letting her come back home I wanted to make sure she was being honest (and I still do), but I went around it the wrong way. Like she said to me after finding out I turned it on, she said this is exactly the kind of thing she's tired of and can't deal with.


----------



## Emerald

If she picks #2, I thinks her "freedom" should be very limited due to her past & her flirtatious nature. Keep an eye on that one.

Really - what does "freedom" even mean to her? Good wives & good mothers feel "free" & not like they are in jail. Her age has nothing to do with it - it's about maturity.

I know you love her very much & I hope everything works out for you.


----------



## Machiavelli

Back when the northern states invaded the South, Grant's generals were all worried about what Gen'l Lee was going to do to them next. Grant told them they needed to quit worrying about Lee and start making Lee worry about what they were getting ready to do to him (Lee). Get it?


----------



## Kallan Pavithran

She is stinging you with sex............

Dont remain as her plan B, You are 100% in or out, there is nothing like 50-50.


----------



## happyman64

Atonement,

I read your thread and decided to chime in.

Your wife is like a junky on crack right now.

She is using OW to get her fix.

And the other night she used you to get her fix.

The only reason she did this was because she thinks you are going to D her.

*A. You cannot force her to grow up!

B. You cannot force her to be a loyal, loving wife!

C. You cannot force her to want to be a Mom!*

Do not let her make you be her Plan B. Because you and your kids deserve a better life.

She has to want to do the above things and I do not think at this stage in her life she is capable of doing that.

Just her A and now lesbian trysts should prove to you that your wife has no desire for a mature, monogamous relationship with you.

I understand your desire to keep your marriage and family intact. We all know that feeling here on TAM.

Just realize that your wife may no longer have that same desire as you.

And if that is the case you really one have one option.

That is to move on in your life and protect your heart and your children as best you can.......

HM64


----------



## Atonement

Update:
Sorry everyone, it's been a rough few weeks. At the time I started this post originally my wife had been out of the house for over two months. She told me she was interested in other men and she admitted to making out with another man about two weeks ago at the bar while she was drunk with her friends. Anyhow, we have talked about things and she's going to move back in. We wrote down a list of guidelines...

Live together for the holidays, without any expectations
No fighting or arguing (or me throwing the affair in her face)
She seeks counselling and perhaps we eventually try marriage counseling 
Both help equally with the kids and house work
No more drinking or going out without each other
Strict boundaries, no flirting/cheating with other people, no staying out all night
Complete honesty
We decided to not talk about the relationship and just live each day and enjoy it the best we can
Cell phone gps on, all passwords to facebook and computer


A few things we compromised on is her work situation, she doesn't want to quit her job...she says it's the only stability she has in her life right now. I honestly don't think anything will change while she's working at the bar, getting constant attention and validation from other men. Also all of her friends work there and have zero respect for our marriage, they just want to party.

Another compromise was that I would not move out of the house if things don't improve or go smoothly, she will have to move.

This was a lengthy process, she seems like she's having a mid life crisis and I'm not to confident this will change anything. Basically she feels like I can never get over what happened during her affair. Which I'll admit, after the affair she was completely ready to reconcile...and my constant anger (probably even mental/emotional abuse) and lashing out destroyed our chances. I had never experienced anger like that, but now I feel like it's faded a great deal and I'm ready to move on. But after that she put her walls up and just wanted to move on, feeling like there was to much damage done in our relationship and it was impossible to fix. At this point I think just letting her do what she wants, doing the 180, and letting her live this single bar life until she hits rock bottom and realizes what she's thrown away...was/is the best way for her to snap out of this. But there's no way I'd want her back after that, I'm not even sure I want to be with her at this point. So I suppose this is a trial run to see if anything can improve or be salvaged. 

It is frustrating on my end, she still admits to being curious about the idea of dating other men, but she admits she has a problem and wants to get help. She doesn't want to be intimate with me, no kissing/sex? But she'll make out with a random guy? I'm always the one to initiate it and I hate it. I feel like she's done everything possible to destroy our marriage and family, and I'm the one fighting for it...and giving her my love and affection. I will say, that since she's gone cold turkey off her anti depressants, she has extreme mood swings. One day she'll be loving and affectionate (rarely), the next she'll be cold and distant. Any advice on how I can get her to lower her walls and fall in love with me again? She's still holding onto all the past resentment in our relationship and thinks I look at her as a whoooore now. Should I do the 180 while living with her? Should I keep being sweet and loving? I'm at the point where I'm considering sleeping on the couch, showing her zero affection...and just basically being her roommate that's polite and a great father. I'm a firm believer in people can't appreciate what they have until they've lost it (happened with me after her affair)...I think I just need to start playing hard to get basically.


----------



## SadandAngry

No sex, and she is the one who gets the couch. She decided the marriage was over and it was ok to sleep around.

The job would have to go too, if it were me, those aren't friends, those are enablers.

You're still heading for d, you're just setting yourself up to be walked on and hurt some more I think.

I doubt things will get better for you until you act in your own best interest and let the chips fall where they may. R is not easy, for either one of you. She doesn't get to decide if you can forgive her or not, if she is too weak to face up to what she has done, she should slink off, not blame you.


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## SadandAngry

You do not need to play hard to get. That would be acting to manipulate her. It will not work in the long run. You need to figure out what you want, how you need to be with or without her, and move towards that. If she is willing to go along for the ride, fine, but then you still need to act only to control yourself. You can not control her.


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## TBT

Atonement said:


> A few things we compromised on is her work situation, she doesn't want to quit her job...she says it's the only stability she has in her life right now. I honestly don't think anything will change while she's working at the bar, getting constant attention and validation from other men. Also all of her friends work there and have zero respect for our marriage, they just want to party.


I feel for you and your situation man I really do,but accepting this type of compromise is just setting yourself up for more misery and lies.I personally would have said either all this stops and there's real positive action/effort on her part or we each go our own way,end of story.Hope you don't have to suffer too much more before you realize some just don't come back and that you might have been holding on too tight to the memory of who she was once upon a time.Maybe I'm way off and maybe life will be kind to you and you'll both find your way back,and I really hope that for your sake you do.Whatever happens,try to take care of yourself the best you can.Peace.


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## happyman64

Atonement

You have nothing to Atone for but your wife certainly does.

Will she, no!

Give it 2 or 3 months tops. If she does not shape up then ship her out.

She wants to be a 18 year old bisexual party girl. And does bot want to party or have sex with you.

Where is the love in all that? Nowhere. Where is the respect in all that? Nowhere.

Where is there a future with your wife? Nowhere.

So she can go to IC and she can live in your house but if she does not want to grow up and show you, your family and your marriage any love & respect then it is time to move on my friend.

Because your wife will be 40 years old in 15 years, alone, doing other guys and girls in ONS and be nowhere in life.

You and your kids can do better. Go find better.

HM64


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## Atonement

SadandAngry said:


> No sex, and she is the one who gets the couch. She decided the marriage was over and it was ok to sleep around.
> 
> The job would have to go too, if it were me, those aren't friends, those are enablers.
> 
> You're still heading for d, you're just setting yourself up to be walked on and hurt some more I think.
> 
> I doubt things will get better for you until you act in your own best interest and let the chips fall where they may. R is not easy, for either one of you. She doesn't get to decide if you can forgive her or not, if she is too weak to face up to what she has done, she should slink off, not blame you.


SadandAngry, I agree the job has to go…but I’m going to be patient. She doesn’t know if we can get past this, she’s confused about how she feels about me or what the future holds for us, she feels like there’s to much damage and it would probably be best to just let go (maybe she’s right). So for now her job is a place of security and comfort. If things go well in the coming months, there’s no question that she will have to find a new job…but for now I don’t feel like I can demand she quits. She is changing her work schedule, she’s not going to be working nights anymore…which is when the real party animals come out. She’s only going to work mornings. I agree, if anyone’s going to sleep on the couch it will be her. I also agree that her friends at work aren’t friends at all…and they are enablers. They have no respect for our marriage or family, they just want to be single and party…and they want my wife to come along for the ride. She’s agreed that she will not go out with them anymore or drink alcohol.



SadandAngry said:


> You do not need to play hard to get. That would be acting to manipulate her. It will not work in the long run. You need to figure out what you want, how you need to be with or without her, and move towards that. If she is willing to go along for the ride, fine, but then you still need to act only to control yourself. You can not control her.


By hard to get, I meant a form of the 180 while living together. Being loving and affectionate is getting me nowhere with her and it makes me feel horrible when she has no interest in it (but will gladly make out with some random bar guy). Women want a man they can respect, so I’m going to focus on continuing to work on myself and stop my affection towards her until she initiates it herself. What I want is for her to snap out of this and be the women I married again. For us to get through this rough period in our lives and come out stronger. For our marriage to work out and for our family to stay together (although I’m not 100% on this, I have lots of conflicting feelings). 


happyman64 said:


> Atonement
> 
> You have nothing to Atone for but your wife certainly does.
> 
> Will she, no!
> 
> Give it 2 or 3 months tops. If she does not shape up then ship her out.
> 
> She wants to be a 18 year old bisexual party girl. And does bot want to party or have sex with you.
> 
> Where is the love in all that? Nowhere. Where is the respect in all that? Nowhere.
> 
> Where is there a future with your wife? Nowhere.
> 
> So she can go to IC and she can live in your house but if she does not want to grow up and show you, your family and your marriage any love & respect then it is time to move on my friend.
> 
> Because your wife will be 40 years old in 15 years, alone, doing other guys and girls in ONS and be nowhere in life.
> 
> You and your kids can do better. Go find better.
> 
> HM64


I agree with everything you said. She has to make a decision. She can’t have both, the comfort of me and our family and the excitement she gets from this new found single life style. If being together as a family this holiday isn’t enough to snap her out of it and make her realize what she has, than I’m more than prepared to let go and move on. I’ll be able to walk away from this marriage with zero regret, knowing that I’ve done everything I could to save it. She’s the one that will have to live with the regret once she realizes the grass isn’t greener…and what she had was truly special. A beautiful family and a husband who loved her unconditionally. With that being said, I do have much to atone for…I was far from the world’s greatest husband, I took her for granted for the large majority of our relationship. After the affair I was abusive. I’ve realized my past mistakes and I have done everything I can to grow and be a better person. The only thing I have control over is myself, sadly perhaps I woke up a bit too late. I’ll spend the next few months concentrating on being a good man and a great father. Her mistakes are her own and she will have to face them sooner or later.


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## Atonement

Last night she went back to her dads and stayed the night, she has to pick up the rest of her belongings. After work she called me to let me know she was out. We had a pretty good conversation, she seemed excited about moving back in and talked about just taking it one day at a time. Towards the end of the conversation she told me "I Love You". Which kind of caught me by surprise, she hasn't said that in months. My response was a slight laugh followed by, "Do you?" (basically I was the one telling her I loved her up until about a month ago and I stopped/180). She said, "Yes I truly do". I didn't repeat the I love you, I basically just said alright well have a good night. I'm not getting my hopes up, but I'd say this is a positive sign.


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## happyman64

Atonement said:


> Last night she went back to her dads and stayed the night, she has to pick up the rest of her belongings. After work she called me to let me know she was out. We had a pretty good conversation, she seemed excited about moving back in and talked about just taking it one day at a time. Towards the end of the conversation she told me "I Love You". Which kind of caught me by surprise, she hasn't said that in months. My response was a slight laugh followed by, "Do you?" (basically I was the one telling her I loved her up until about a month ago and I stopped/180). She said, "Yes I truly do". I didn't repeat the I love you, I basically just said alright well have a good night. I'm not getting my hopes up, but I'd say this is a positive sign.


That is a good sign. Keep doing what you are doing.

And keep being a good man and a great father. 

I liked your last posts and your head and heart are in the right place.

*Keep fighting to get your marriage there!*

Your family is in my prayers.


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## SadandAngry

She doesn’t know if we can get past this, she’s confused about how she feels about me or what the future holds for us, she feels like there’s to much damage and it would probably be best to just let go (maybe she’s right). 


Yeah, this could be right, but you both owe it to your kids to do your best. Will your best be good enough, doesn't really matter in the end, that's what they get. I'll say this though, the thought of how a d would negatively affect my kids helped me hang on during my war with myself to reach a point where I could let go of the anger and forgive my wife.


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## Atonement

Yes, indeed. If the kids weren't involved I probably would have thrown the towel after her affair. She even says that to me, "if it weren't for the kids you would have been done with me long ago". While I don't agree with her, she is correct to some degree. The thought of losing my family, putting my kids through the divorce process, them being affected by our broken home is a huge factor in me still being here willing to give things a chance. But it's not the sole reason I'm still here "fighting". I do love this woman, I have since we were kids. I would die for her, she's been there for me when no one else was. Before this past year, she was an incredible mother, wife, a hard worker...and all she wanted from me was to put her higher on my priority list, which I sadly did not do. I just did enough to maintain the status quo. Her affair honestly did wake me up in a lot of ways...I never even noticed our marriage getting to that point. I was very ungrateful, something now I regret with all my heart. Sadly, life loves its cruel jokes...now that I've had my wake up call (wish it happened before the affair) and want to give her everything she's ever wanted, she doesn't want me anymore. After her affair I basically let her come back immediately with no consequences...unless my constant anger and belittling her counts as a consequence. Now, she just made out with another man (while I’m still attempting to save our marriage) and I let her move back in again. I feel like my whole plan of being together during the holidays could be pointless and just prolong the pain. How can she want to be with me when she's repeatedly betrayed me and has never really faced any real consequences? How can she respect a man when she thinks he will always be there for her, even after she's done horrible things to him?
I suppose the reality of her moving back in has me rethinking things. I still feel angry about what she’s done, her total lack of respect, not fighting for our family and marriage, her not wanting to be affectionate with me…but will make out with some guy that means nothing to her. I still question if I even want to be with her or not…for the right reasons. I still honestly think the only way she can respect me and love me again is to lose me. That her best chance to snap out of this mid-life crisis would be for me to let her hit rock bottom and see what life’s like without me. But at this point, I’ve already agreed to let her live here for the holidays. So I guess my question is how do I make the best of my current situation. How do I act towards her? I want her emotions for me to return, to fall back in love with me, to truly give our marriage another chance…but I’m not sure what the best way to go about it is. Do I distance myself and do a 180 while we’re living together, let her come to me? Or do I show her that I’m ready to be the man she’s always wanted and romance her (is this to beta male)?
Also, her making out with the other guy 2 weeks ago has begun to sink in quite a bit more. While I’m trying to get her to give our marriage a second chance, writing her letters expressing how I feel…she tells me she’s going to think about things. So what’s she do, she makes out with a random bar guy while she’s drunk? She said they made out off and on for about 30 minutes. How would you guys feel about this? She had been moved out of our home for 2 months, she told me she didn’t want to be with me…is this something I should be upset about? She was honest about it at least; I suppose that’s a good sign. She’s shown remorse for it, says it was a huge mistake. She told me that night she was drunk and attracted to the guy and just wanted to see what it was like to kiss another man (bullshiiiit excuse).


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## Mr Blunt

Your wife is unable to control herself and is not capable of loving anyone at this time. She has chosen her lifestyle and other men over her children and her children’s father. 

You are weak and desperate and are fooling yourself. That is what most men do under your circumstances. Your weakness is compounded by the fact that you say that you did not treat your wife correctly n the past. Groveling over your past mistakes does nothing to improve the here and now.

Bottom line
You withholding the consequences that your wife has earned are hurting your chances of saving your marriage. Furthermore, you should be concentrating on you getting stronger and that means that you finally give up trying to change your wife, it is impossible if she does not want to and take the right action.

I would advice you to ONLY concentrate on you and how you are going to best buffet the damage that your crumbling marriage is going to do to your children. Make yourself STOP being obsessed with your wife. If your wife continues in her free will decisions then you will be reduced to an emotional cripple. You said “I would die for her”. Well if you continue to live your fantasy world and think that you can change her you may have to see if you are going to die for her. You may not die but you will be weakened even further. That will be disastrous for your children. A mother that chooses the bar, other men, and party lifestyle over her children and a father that is close to being a dish rag emotionally is not what your children need.

*PUT YOUR CHILDREN FIRST!!!! That means that you become the best Mr. Atonement that you can be so that you can buffet the damage that will come your children’s way. You have a choice. You can choose to concentrate on your wife or your children.*

Becoming stronger in body, mind, and spirit and concentrating on ONLY your children is the best chance of ever getting back with your wife. By doing that she will have to face her own consequences and that may wake her up enough to start to get better. If she never comes back to you, you will still be a much better man by taking care of your self and your children. If you do not the consequences will be very bad.


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## warlock07

She is making out with other men ? Your marriage is dead. You just don't realize it yet.



> She said they made out off and on for about 30 minutes


Are you a masochist ?
Get some help for yourself. Realize that you cannot manipulate her to come back to you. This has been suggested to you repeatedly. But you don't listen to the advice given here. Be honest to yourself. She is not coming back and this is not the kind of woman you want to come back to.


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## Atonement

Mr Blunt: I agree, I have been fairly weak considering the circumstances. After the affair she was willing to do whatever it took to fix out marriage, my anger and resentment kept us from doing that. So yea, in a way I feel partly responsible for never giving our reconciliation a real chance...I just wasn't ready. A person can only stand by for so long dealing with angry outbursts and being called a whoooore. But what hurt, was after she decided we just couldnt be together and moved on...she didn't learn much of anything from her affair. She just jumped back into her party girl lifestyle. And you're right, I doubt she will ever truly learn or grow as a person without me detaching, moving on with my life and letting her explore this new life shes so tempted by...and let her realize its not as glamorous as she believes. But for the time being I've agreed to let her move back in, she's already being more loving (slow and gradual), but she does have her mood swings and changes day to day. She's telling me she loves me, cleans the house, makes dinner, she's not goin out at night anymore, she's not drinking (all of her bad choices involved her drinking), she treats me pretty good all things considered. So ya, it's definitely a rollercoaster of emotions and I'm not sure what to make of things. She realizes she's made horrible mistakes, she's admitted to not wanting to be that person, she's admitted that she needs help from an IC, she's told me she wants to be a mother our kids can be proud of. But at the same time, she says she's lost her feelings for me and she doesn't know if they'll come back...and there's nothing she can do about it? For the next 3 months, I am going to concentrate on my kids like I've said and myself...and hope she comes back to reality.

Warlock: 
Far from a masochist, this pain has been the worst I've ever experienced. But the make out thing def didn't hurt as much as her affair. By that point I had been doing the 180 and quite a bit more detached. I understood she wanted out of our marriage, she wasn't living here, so I pretty much realized it would just be a matter of time before she did something with another man. If masochist involves loving ones family and doing what it takes to repair it, than I guess I'm a masochist. But you're right, all I can do is control myself...I have no control over her. I'm not trying to manipulate her, just wake her up and make her realize what she's throwing away. I also realize the best way for that to have happened was for me to file for divorce and show her I'm done dealing with all this shiiiit. She knows that if nothing improves after these 3 months, that's exactly what I'll be doing. I am trying to be honest with myself, that's why I've admitted I even have doubts as to whether or not I want to be with her. If she comes back and is willing to put everything into saving our marriage and be the women she was prior to all of this ****...than yes I feel like that's worth giving a chance. If she continues to be this party girl pretending to have no responsibility....than F NO i want nothing to do with someone like that. I appreciate all of the advice from you guys, but it's clear that most of you have a throw it away rather than fix it approach. You dont know my life, you dont know the amazing moments we've shared together, what we've gone through together, the beautiful family we share together, the incredible love we shared together. Marriage is a series of ups and downs, sadly we're at the lowest point we've ever experienced...but I was raised to believe family is everything and when somethings broken you fix it, you don't throw it away. I'm going to fix things on my end, she's responsible for her end. If she doesn't "come back" than so be it, I'll move on knowing I did everything I could and wish her the best.

Also, throughout this past year it honestly does seem like my wife went off the deep end. Like most cheating wives, she did a complete 180 compared to the person I thought she was. Throughout our relationship she was never selfish, now she's made decisions based solely on herself...not caring about the negative impact it has on anyone else. Before all of this, our family was her world...and she was madly in love with me. I honestly feel like she's going through a mid life crisis, especially after reading this from another post...

http://nashlinks.com/midlife.htm

Also, I've read online and found this site...and my wife is def a chaos kid, her mother left her and her family for another man. He dad basically turned her into his slave and never showed her love. And it seems like whenever we hit a low point, she reverts back to what she's learned from her parents. Is anyone familiar with chaos kids?

http://www.stopyourdivorcein4weeks.com/IL.html


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## happyman64

Atonement,

Please do not think we advise a "throw it all away including the wife" attitude.

What we advise is to take control of your life, your family and move away from the infidelity that your wayward spouse has brought ino your marriage.

Your approach to have her move back home is sound if she is done with her wayward ways and is being honest with you.

How else could you both see if you still love each other if you do not get together and cohabitate.

But remind her tht while she is trying to see if she still loves you, you are trying to see if she is still worth loving.......

It works both ways.

Good Luck
Hm64


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## SadandAngry

We don't have a throw it out attitude, but we are extremely realistic. Reconciliation is the harder way to go, and you both need some commitment for it to work. It just doesn't sound like your ws is committed at this point.


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## walkonmars

Atone:
I have kept up with your sad situation for some time but have not posted b/c others have offered some excellent insights and advice. Your anguish comes through so clearly that I feel both sad for your situation and angry at how you've been treated. 

But re the quote below:



Atonement said:


> ... I appreciate all of the advice from you guys, but *it's clear that most of you have a throw it away rather than fix it approach.*...


You do know that it was your wife that took that approach - yes I understand you blew your stack when you found out about the affair. However, were her subsequent actions reasonable? Did they convey remorse? 

If she'd left you, found another job and tried to better herself, request a divorce and in the process met someone else - well, then you _*might*_ be able to ascribe some level of blame on yourself (although I most certainly would not - not at all). 

Your 3 month plan seems worth a try but she must show within that time that she's making progress - and not by mere words - but by actions such as reading self-help books/articles, and seeking IC in addition to continuing to refrain from alcohol, nights out, unexplained absences, and of course being a stellar mother - and at least making some progress at showing you affection and true companionship. 

Continue to better yourself physically, mentally, and emotionally. You'll survive this as you say. It's a long road with many bumps - navigate judiciously. Many prayers and a sincere wish for your success be it with or without your wife.


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## Atonement

Thanks for the replies. Reconciling is definitely the harder path to go down, just leaving a cheater is definitely the easier choice. But at this point I want to reconcile. I think she's committed as much as she can be, I've listed all the things she's agreed too...I have the passwords to all accounts, phone records, gps, she lets me know where she is, when she gets out of work, she's not going out with her bar friends anymore, not drinking, not working night shifts, etc. Her problem is, in her head, she's lost these feelings for me and she feels like she has no control over that. So while trying to reconcile I can't just demand she falls back in love with me and shows me affection? She said we just need to take it one day at a time and I agree. 

Also, I'm in no way blaming myself for her choices this past year. All I've done is acknowledge what I did wrong in our marriage leading up to her affair. She knows this and even admits if we weren't even together and she was single, her actions were wrong and morally inappropriate for a mother of two. 

My main question is, with this 3 months plan...HOW DO I TREAT HER? How do I get her to lower her walls and let me back in? I don't want to smoother her with love and affection just to have her not reciprocate, but I don't want to do a complete 180 and distance myself from her and detach either. The whole point of these 3 month trial period is to show her that we can be happy and help her to realize what she's throwing away. SO how do I do that?

She is willing to read self help books, seek IC, and eventually MC too.

I will continue to better myself, be a better father and just an overall better person.


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## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Atonement
> ... I appreciate all of the advice from you guys, but it's clear that most of you have a throw it away rather than fix it approach....


I assume you are including me in your post above. I may need to be more clear in my previous post to you that is partially reprinted below:



> _Becoming stronger in body, mind, and spirit and concentrating on ONLY your children is the best chance of ever getting back with your wife. By doing that she will have to face her own consequences and that may wake her up enough to start to get better. If she never comes back to you, you will still be a much better man by taking care of your self and your children. If you do not the consequences will be very bad_.



My advice also has some professional validation but it does need more explaining. The part about you getting stronger and concentrating on only you and your children is not as a vengeance or punishment to your wife. It is advice that has the potential to help the person that has made serious mistakes and the other family members also.

When you are concentrating on you and your children you will also NOT be helping relieve your wife of her consequences. When you soften her consequences you are helping her avoid her making the decision to take strong actions that are needed to begin to correct her past actions and the action she now has which is that she does not have feeling for you.

Your wife at this time, under present circumstances, is also very weak, confused, in emotional disarray and incapable by herself of taking very strong actions to get back on the right track. Without strong consequences then strong emotional bondages cannot have much of a chance of going forward. Remember I am not taking about you adding your vengeance consequences but I am talking about the natural consequences. *One natural consequence is that she will not have you and your resources as a back up plan or a buffer to soften her consequences. *

At the present time you are taking her back and doing a few things to help her emotionally. If she gets enough relief then she will be less likely to take bold steps that are very difficult for her in order to get free enough to take the right steps. I know that it is very hard to let someone suffer the consequences that they have earned. It is hard because you care for her and she controls a lot of your emotions right now and you are concerned for your children.

In addiction there is a few sayings; here are a few:

*When the pain of getting better is less than the pains staying in your current condition, then you will move towards getting better.

When they get sick k and tire of being sick and tired then the chance or positive change is very close.*


It is scary to let the person receive the consequences but the consequences are what the addicts and professionals say is often the catalyst to finally taking bold actions to combat emotional and mental bondages.

You cannot change your wife but you can follow what many experts have said and lean your wife in the direction of making better choices. I know you want an absolute solution that will work every time but I know of no such solution that you can do. 

*What you can do is to determine what is enabling your wife and what is not enabling your wife. *
I hope that I have given you some information that will help you, your wife, and your children.


Blunt


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## walkonmars

Don't know if you're religious but work on your spituality too. It would be wonderful if somewhere down the road she would join you in building a home where love and forgiveness reign.


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## Atonement

Update: This ones a bit long sorry, put some thought into this

Well the past few weeks have been full ups and downs, mostly downs. The stress level in our house hold is at an all-time high (especially for my wife), we’re hurting for money, have tons of bills to pay, her ex affair partner randomly pulled up next to her at a stop light…she said she saw him and it made her sick to her stomach (good sign she was honest about this I think), she might have to spend 10 days in jail for failing an alcohol test for her dui, add to all that our current marital situation. Everything’s a complete mess and it’s wearing me out! 
I’m starting to come to the realization that perhaps my plan was a bad idea or perhaps I just don’t have the patience for it. I’ve seen no progress from her (I’m sure the stress hasn’t helped); she’s still distant, non-affectionate…she’s not giving us a real chance. In her mind she wants to take it slow, but in my mind…seeing no changes and feeling no love from her is just causing anger to build up inside me. I feel like she should be able to make a decision, either give our marriage a chance and act like a loving wife...or don’t and get out of my life and continue on her new found destructive path. I think she’s fence sitting and maybe afraid to jump in and make herself vulnerable to me and give us a real chance (or another more probable theory, next paragraph). What do you guys think? Should she be able to consciously make a decision to be a loving, affectionate wife, and give us a real chance (even though she says her feelings aren’t there and she can’t help it)? Am I asking too much or being too impatient?

Anyhow, onto the other more realistic theory...

ATTRACTION- 

Today, something dawned on me, something I already knew, but after a careless remark of hers it woke something up inside of me. I logged into her facebook and commented to her that it was pretty annoying, seeing that she basically had a new guy friend requesting her every other day. I followed with a snide remark, telling her, “I guess it comes with the job description” (I’m normally not like this to her, but like I said the stress and anger has been building). Her response? “Being insecure is unattractive”. BINGO! Sure this remark shows what little empathy she has for what she’s done, but she’s right…ATTRACTION- the most basic animalistic subconscious driving force between a person’s desire to be with another person…and she’s lost it for me. She hasn’t lost it physically, but emotionally. This explains why none of the changes I’ve made have had little or no effect on her. Taking care of the kids, cleaning the house, doing the laundry, treating her with love and showing her affection, etc…things that she was always wanted me to do in the past. But when it comes down to it, none of those changes matter; they’re basically all somewhat beta traits and do nothing to build attraction. Like every other woman, her feelings and emotions are all fueled by that subconscious attraction, regardless of what they think they want (this is where we get the line, “I can’t help how I feel”, they have no control over who they are attracted to or not). 

Example: My wife’s affair, she was willing to give up everything for this married man, a man who she knew she had zero future with (regardless of what her fantasy let her believe), she showed him affection that she hadn’t given me in years. He was an alpha male, confident, ex body builder, had a very successful job, he was a new exciting guy and gave her constant attention/validation. This deep emotional attraction (she said physically she knew I was much more attractive) towards him caused her to ignore any rational decision making, being driven purely by this emotional high (the fog?). She ignored our marital vows or any commitment she had to me, it caused her to ignore who she thought she was as a person…setting all of her morals and values aside. So is it just me, or are pretty much all affairs a combination of intense attraction and a lack of strong personal boundaries/lack of willpower. It was only after I kicked her out of the house and exposed the OM to his wife and the affair ended, that her attraction for me returned. After the affair, she was extremely loving and affectionate, our sex was incredible, she was willing to do whatever it took to make things work (but like I said previously, I wasn’t ready for this…I was to consumed by the pain and anger…I sure would love to have this back though). So what happened, she continued to work at the bar (getting more rich successful men giving her constant validation)…I continued on my emotional rollercoaster of verbal assault…and her attraction for me once again dwindled away, ending in the all to famous, “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”, followed by her new party girl life style.

Up until this point, throughout our relationship I have always been very “alpha” male, strong and confident, I’d say I’m good looking and get plenty of attention from other women, in our relationship I’ve always been the one in control…she was always the one chasing me. Now I’ve fallen quite a long way from my former self, it feels like a complete role reversal. I’m the one making changes and trying to correct the mistakes I’ve made in the past, I’m the one fighting for our marriage, I’ve taken her back after the horrible things she’s done to me with little consequences, I’m the one chasing her basically. All needy beta traits that do nothing to rebuild attraction. But honestly, with the goal of saving my marriage in mind, how am I supposed to rebuild this attraction? I feel like even if I return to my former glory  , in her eyes there’s still too much damage and resentment in our relationship…add in the fact that she’s still working in a toxic environment, receiving constant validation from men at her bar, and still surrounded by all of her enabler single friends. If she’s still interested and attracted to other men and still working in this environment, I feel like no matter what I do it will be pointless. Of course I realize there's many more factors in a sustained healthy relationship outside of just attraction, but I'd argue that it's probably one of the most important ones (along with respect).

I talked to her earlier and I told her I’m reaching my breaking point and I can’t continue to live like this. I told her its hell; trying everything I can to give our marriage another chance…just to get nothing in return from her…to feel no love. It’s a horrible feeling. I told her that she needs to make a decision to either give us a real chance and put everything she can into this, and treat me as a loving wife would…or we need to figure out a different living arrangement and I need to move on. She said that she feels like I’m forcing her, that I’m going back on our agreement (which I suppose I am, but I can’t help it…I’m not going to be her roommate for 3 months and feel like complete sh**t)

Our only chance…
1.	Reclaim manhood (feel free to help with this, it’s pretty difficult in the emotional state I’m in right now)
2.	She needs to find a new job (again, something that’s going to be difficult…we’re hurting for money and she makes great money there)

What do you guys think? Am I being to impatient? Should I give it more time? The whole idea of her coming back her was to give things a chance...so far I feel like she has her walls up and isn't doing that.


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## Chris989

So you were an "Alpha male" and she went off with other men.

How will regaining your "Alpha" status help exactly?

You are somehow linking the "Alpha" thing with her cheating and with a method of winning her back.

To be blunt it didn't seem to do you much good last time?

Perhaps you are looking in the wrong area.

Clue: your wife cheated because she's a cheat. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Actually: work out. Do the 180. Be cold and strong. Be a real man. That is sure to win her back and stop her from cheating. Just like last time.


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## Atonement

Chris-
I'm not saying being an alpha male/rebuilding attraction is the fix all solution...I'm saying it's a stepping stone. I think it's the first step in our relationship having a chance...or rather her wanting to give it a chance. Right now she's lost and doesn't know what she wants it seems like. 

Obviously, she has issues that she needs to address...there's nothing I can do about that, that's all on her. A previous poster put it perfectly...Marriage is for "better for worse". She's an amazing mother/wife when everything's for better, her biggest flaw seems to be when things are "worse" and she immediately gives up and explorers other options. Hopefully she makes some head way with her IC. Long term, nothing will change until she does this. 

Concerning me being an alpha male previously, it was a combination of things that helped her to stray. Her new bar work environment (something she has never been exposed too) and me being unemployed at the time are at the top of that list (not having a job isn't very alpha male)...like I said, I believe she saw him as an upgrade b/c of his financial success.


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## Chris989

Atonement said:


> Chris-
> I'm not saying being an alpha male/rebuilding attraction is the fix all solution...I'm saying it's a stepping stone. I think it's the first step in our relationship having a chance...or rather her wanting to give it a chance. Right now she's lost and doesn't know what she wants it seems like.
> 
> Obviously, she has issues that she needs to address...there's nothing I can do about that, that's all on her. Hopefully she makes some head way with her IC. Long term, nothing will change until she does this.
> 
> Concerning me being an alpha male previously, it was a combination of things that helped her to stray. Her new bar work environment (something she has never been exposed too) and me being unemployed at the time are at the top of that list (not having a job isn't very alpha male)...like I said, I believe she saw him as an upgrade b/c of his financial success.


It seems to me that you are blaming yourself.

As far as I understand it, the first step towards healing is accepting that you are not to blame.

Sure, work on yourself. Get confidence back. Part of getting your confidence back is accepting that your wife did not cheat because of where you were in life. To think that - and I type this with reluctance - is very "beta"!

Maybe you should ask if you want a relationship where you have to be like John Wayne all the time - or would it be nice to be able to show a truly rounded man?

I am not having a go here - just trying to show another view point and show that you need to fix you before you fix your marriage.


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## Atonement

Trust me, I'm not blaming myself. Everything she's done was her choice and that's something she's going to have to live with the rest of her life. 

If anything, right now she hates herself, this is the lowest point in her life, she has no self respect, no self esteem, she's always depressed, she realizes she has a problem. She hasn't gotten to the point where she can even forgive herself and to her seeing me is a constant reminder of the horrible choices she's made...I think that's another reason why giving up is an easier option for her. Which I agree, it probably is.


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## ArmyofJuan

The only way you are going to attract her again is to get her to chase you. Basically you have to reject her and make her win you back. Stop waiting on her to make a decision, she already made one with her actions so move forward with the consequences.

This nice guy routine is “too little too late” and makes it look like (from her POV) a pathetic attempt to win her over. She cheated and you are rewarding her for it. She knows she did wrong and seeing you tolerate it makes you look weak (no “real man” would put up with a cheater, you think someone like John Wayne would?).

She will stay on the fence until you push her off. She has to “feel” like being back in the marriage and she doesn’t feel it right now. They only way to wake up her feelings for you is to try to end things (head for a D). She needs to be afraid of losing you for her to see you in a new light.

I don’t believe anything short of that is going to work.


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## happyman64

Atonement,

Yes you are being impatient.

Yes you are going back on your agreement.

Your wife is getting over an OM. You know it. We know it. Hell, even she knows it.

So back off!

Let her do those chores. Let her take care of the kids.

You should find a way outside of your home and away from your wife to blow off steam.

The 180 is for you. But what I think you need to do is fake it till you make it.

Give your W the three months you agreed upon. Even though she is the one that broke the trust she needs to know and see the following from you:

A. You will keep your word on marriage/reconciliation commitments.

B. You will not throw the A in her face everyday let alone every hour.

C. She needs to feel secure with you that you will be there for her. I know it sounds weird because you feel she should be there because she screwed up but it does not always work that way. Your wife needs your support. When a person has little or no self esteem how do you expect them to treat you with kindness and affection.

It is not gonna happen for awhile. It needs to be built up by attraction. ANd your treatment of her (of course she deserves some of it but it is not gonna help you in the long run to fix the marriage) is pushing her away.

So make those changes, stop doing all the chores and get her involved back into your family.

Then evaluate the Relationship in 3 months to see if any improvements have been made by both of you.

One makes the damage. But it takes two to fix it!

HM64


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## Mr Blunt

BLUNT REPLIES



> By Atonement
> What do you guys think? Am I being to impatient? Should I give it more time?


It has been over 2 years, beginning with the lesbian affair, that she has been proving where she is at.
Her additional actions in the last year have also proven her decisions.
You have not been too impatient in giving her time to change.


> By Atonement 10-11-2012
> I’ve seen no progress from her






> By Atonement
> Our only chance…
> 1. Reclaim manhood (feel free to help with this, it’s pretty difficult in the emotional state I’m in right now)
> 2. She needs to find a new job (again, something that’s going to be difficult…we’re hurting for money and she makes great money there)



1	Manhood
The first thing that you need in your manhood is RESPECT
Your wife does not respect you and now you are starting to disrespect yourself. *If you keep losing respect you will become a door mat-dish rag that will be of no use to anyone. That would be disastrous for your children*.

2	New Job for your wife
Of course you are right about your wife getting another job. The job is a huge problem but the MAIN problem is your WIFE. If your wife gets another job and does not change herself, a new job will do nothing.

You cannot change your wife you can only change you.
You are in a fight for your emotional life and your self respect
*GET YOUR AZZ IN GEAR AND CONSENTRATE ON YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN!*




You have asked for my opinion and it is just a follow up on what I wrote to you several days ago. A summary is below:


> Bottom line
> You withholding the consequences that your wife has earned are hurting your chances of saving your marriage. Furthermore, you should be concentrating on you getting stronger and that means that you finally give up trying to change your wife, it is impossible if she does not want to and take the right action.
> 
> 
> PUT YOUR CHILDREN FIRST!!!! That means that you become the best Mr. Atonement that you can be so that you can buffet the damage that will come your children’s way. You have a choice. You can choose to concentrate on your wife or your children.
> 
> 
> Becoming stronger in body, mind, and spirit and concentrating on ONLY your children is the best chance of ever getting back with your wife. By doing that she will have to face her own consequences and that may wake her up enough to start to get better. If she never comes back to you, you will still be a much better man by taking care of your self and your children. If you do not the consequences will be very bad.


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