# Dealing with spouse's pain humanely



## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

Today my stbx asked me to come into the marital home (where I no longer live as of July '12) and fix some computer problems. I was pleasantly surprised by the request, because she hadn't responded to email in a week nor answered a phone call for 6 months. So I agreed.

But 5 minutes in she came into the office in tears, "I need you to leave; I can't handle it."

She has consistently expressed over the course of our separation that she cannot stand to be near me because of intense emotional pain. She engages with our friends, laughs, chats, etc. She goes to the gym, volunteers at the kids' school. But any contact with me tortures her.

It has been 6 months now, and she seems to have not healed much since I left. I realize it takes a long time to heal after 11 years of marriage, but I really was hoping we'd at least be on cordial terms by now. I have been waiting to begin the divorce process until she was more ready, but I'm wondering if it may take several years before she is.

How long would you wait? Have you been in my shoes? In hers?


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

I would file tomorrow.

Wait, not tomorrow, that's Sunday.

First thing Monday morning, get there early, you'll beat the line for the metal detectors.


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

> First thing Monday morning, get there early, you'll beat the line for the metal detectors.


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## keepthefaith (Nov 24, 2012)

My stbx and I were married for 20 years, together for 23, before he decided that he was no longer happy. We have been separated for 6 months now and it is still very difficult for me to see him or talk to him. To everyone at work, to my family, and to my friends I appear fine. And honestly I do feel fine most of the time but it is extra difficult when he is around. The pain is something I have to deal with. My pain is no longer his "problem" to "fix". All he can do is show me respect and treat me as fairly as he can during our separation and divorce. Filing would not increase or decrease that pain...so go ahead and file.


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

keepthefaith said:


> My stbx and I were married for 20 years, together for 23, before he decided that he was no longer happy. We have been separated for 6 months now and it is still very difficult for me to see him or talk to him. To everyone at work, to my family, and to my friends I appear fine. And honestly I do feel fine most of the time but it is extra difficult when he is around. The pain is something I have to deal with. My pain is no longer his "problem" to "fix". All he can do is show me respect and treat me as fairly as he can during our separation and divorce. Filing would not increase or decrease that pain...so go ahead and file.


This is incredibly helpful. But I think you are more rational and amenable than my wife (although I remain hopeful she will come around).


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

I feel your pain. 2 years ago my wife rekindled her feelings towards an old flame, met him 2000 miles from home, then claimed she did nothing wrong because they didn't do anything physical. I spent the last 2 years trying to fix things, all the while she kept in contact with him via Facebook, then went to see him again over Christmas on a trip in which she left me and our 5 and 2 year old at home. 

I suppose for me it is easier, in a sense, she wants to file for divorce and is giving me the kids and most everything I want, at least there is no ambiguation about her wishes in all of this. Nothing requires me to file, I won't fight it, even though I think it is wrong and that she is a fool (the other man is married and will not leave his spouse).


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## LdyVenus (Dec 1, 2012)

You have to stop feeling guilty and jut rip off the band aid. You tried MC, you've been separated for a while now. The longer you two remain in limbo, the more time it will take her to heal.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

timeforpain said:


> I have been waiting to begin the divorce process until she was more ready,


:slap:


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm getting the feeling I'm a bit more passive than most people on TAM.


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## BigMac (Oct 29, 2012)

She is trying to make you feel bad about her and so to get back with her.

Any chance for R from your part ?


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## Lovingwife315 (Dec 10, 2012)

Time- I don't know your entire story, were you the one wanting out. She is the BS, or left behind?

I can relate with her, and you alittle. I wonder if my husband will feel the way you do in the months to come. I told him when he moved out that I won't even entertain the discussiong at this time, and he feels so much guilt for his A and hurting me that he will wait until I am ready.

It has been 6 months since D day and 5 days since he moved out.....I am not ready yet, I still have hope for us, with time.

IS there hope for you 2? Someone said something on here that stuck with me....instead of looking at it in all the years you have had together that you will be thowing away, maybe you can look at it as all the future years you could have together being thrown away.....Just a thought.


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## veebras (Dec 10, 2011)

I would say that if you are dead set and absolutely certain that divorce is your only option, then please file ASAP. Because you are prolonging her hopefulness, limbo, and pain..I feel for her as that's the boat I'm in myself. Stop giving her hope and let her heal. Best to try and slowly reconcile of course if any possibility! I wish you both the best
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

We separated back in July '12 and I moved into a rented room with my best friend (who is also her brother). This was a result of a badly troubled married (she agrees), and because of a physical indiscretion on her part (she says I'm overreacting).

We tried MC, but in our first session she walked out and refused to go back.

In Nov '12 our 7 yr old was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes (which suddenly made everything else become a secondary concern). Her behavior toward me was appalling, and I decided the marriage was over: we weren't in MC and our relationship was just getting worse rather than better. When I told her this, she said we needed to try MC one more time.

In our 2nd MC attempt Dec '12, I repeated that I was done, which she did not take well. When I picked up the boys two days later, she tossed the diabetes meds bag out the door, spilling the contents onto the pavement. She is angry, obviously.

She then asked my brother-in-law to evict me from his house (in fact, she asked if she could have the pleasure of doing it herself). She is acting emotionally rather than rationally: I'm giving her 70% of my paycheck currently, and as soon as I move out of my rented room (2 weeks from now!) I'm going to need a lot more rent and she's necessarily going to get a lot less money from me.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

You're being manipulated.

File for divorce and be done with it.


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

BigMac said:


> She is trying to make you feel bad about her and so to get back with her.


DING DING DING!

We have a winner.



> Any chance for R from your part ?


Yes, there is a chance. There was a much larger chance a year ago than now, though. 

Now I would have to see such a dramatic change in her behavior that I no longer think it's realistic, so the chance is small enough that I think we should move forward and divorce.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

timeforpain said:


> I'm giving her 70% of my paycheck currently,


Were you court ordered to do so or because you're too kind?


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

keko said:


> Were you court ordered to do so or because you're too kind?


Ummm...

Uh...

Well, it wasn't a court-order. And it's going down due to my implementing some suggestions from this thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/63498-am-i-headed-nasty-divorce.html


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How many children do you have and how old are they?


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> How many children do you have and how old are they?


Boys 7 and 9. They are doing well with the shared-parenting schedule (so far).


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## oncehisangel (Oct 13, 2012)

With all your cash time..I reckon next time ask her to hire a comp' expert herself and take yourself off to the movies with your kids. 

love and peace


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

No offense, but one of the key points of getting a divorce is that her problems are no longer your problems. While you don't need to be cruel about it, you also don't need to *****foot around. If she needs to build up her support network to help her, that's up to her to do. If she needs to go to individual counselling, she can do that.

As Nike says... Just do it, if that's what you need to do.

C


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

What about your pain? Sounds like she doesn't give a sh!t about how her "physical indiscretion(s)" made you feel because you are "overreacting." 

I know you love your kids, but from your post she doesn't sound like a winner and it wasn't because you tried to paint her in negative light.

To me it sounds like she needs consequences for her decisions: quitting her job, physical indiscretion(s), being a callous and cruel to you. Men and women who are supposed to love each other shouldn't treat each other those ways. Not suggesting you punish her, it sounds like she really wants life to do that for her so she can be the victim.

I have struggled with the same thing in my relationship: how to take care of myself and not be an a$$hole to my STBXW and kids. I erred on the side of too generous while upping the appearance of strength hoping to get her back. Right now it seems that it worked, but you are done with your marriage so be done with it.

Also if you are done you need to be thinking about custody and divorce. What is your plan? Do you have a lawyer? This important because I think she is gonna be awful to divorce. Put your kids first, and that means you need to provide for them when they are with you. Hopefully, she will come around and will want to provide for them to. 

I guarantee she will not come around until she faces reality.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

I am a woman with a woman's POV:

Go back and read the post BEFORE mine.....about 100 times!


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

wtf2012 said:


> What about your pain? Sounds like she doesn't give a sh!t about how her "physical indiscretion(s)" made you feel because you are "overreacting."


She definitely does not care about my feelings (or if she does, only to the extent that it serves her needs). I'm convinced she's a narcissist, but then we all place labels on people when we're upset with them I guess.

Here's the Reader's Digest version: I lived for 11 years with a massive slob, a 12-hr-a-day sleeping, yelling, selfish, lost woman who has a doctorate and now an M.S. but is unemployed. A woman who couldn't handle staying at home (kids went to daycare even when she was unemployed). A woman who hates to clean (we have a housecleaner even though she's unemployed). A woman who prefers Netflix and solitaire to going hiking with her family (depression). A woman who had a psychotic break but decided against taking prescribed medication afterward. A woman who lives alone in the master bedroom while I sleep in a guest room, but accepts conjugal visits gladly if I don't mind that she hasn't showered in a week, or brushed her teeth, or that there are dirty dishes from last night's dinner under the sheets (I am serious... this happened!).

She has good points to be sure, and I still love her down deep, but this drunken rendezvous with Mr. Random last year was the last straw for me. I left her.

Now I am not perfect: her biggest complaint about me is that I criticize her for many (or all) of the items listed above. And sometimes I'm not the loving communicative patient man I want to be while doing it. I might make a snide remark, a hurtful comment. And yes, I am *TRYING *to be more constructive and less judgmental. But this is her only complaint about me... well, that and I don't like to go dancing as much as she does.

I was born to teenage heroin addicts. I have never done drugs and don't even like to drink for fear of becoming them. I work insanely hard. I have earned everything I have. She comes from a well-to-do family who has essentially adopted me. I adore them, but they are clearly going to be lost to me.

Ok, so here we are: separated. She's in the marital home and I'm in a rented room 30 miles away. We share custody, and my kids are doing fine (so far at least). I have been giving her the vast majority of my paycheck for 8 months now (that is about to change).

But she's telling all our mutual friends: "Jake left me because he wants a second adolescence, or got tired of being a husband and father. He has no sense of responsibility and is totally selfish. He doesn't know how hard it is for me... I've been struggling for so long and now the kids and I are all alone. I'm so scared."

And you know what? * THEY BUY IT!* People won't even look at me when I say hi now. 

And you know what else? * I am starting to buy it too.* @*%(&@#(*&!(*



And next up: I'm filing for divorce, just to enhance her story even further.


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

wtf2012 said:


> Also if you are done you need to be thinking about custody and divorce. What is your plan? Do you have a lawyer? This important because I think she is gonna be awful to divorce. Put your kids first, and that means you need to provide for them when they are with you. Hopefully, she will come around and will want to provide for them to.


I have a consulting attorney (unbundled) with option to hire as a representative. However, my attorney wants to start a war like yesterday: seize the kids, psych eval the wife, pull virtually all financial support and make her get an atty, then start the war.

When I said my wife will suffer greatly, perhaps even relapse into psychosis, the lawyer made a "playing violin" motion.

This is not my style. I want to work toward mediation; I may not get there, but I don't want to give up yet. Everything I've read says it's less expensive, entails less destruction and long-term hostility, and is better for our kids if we can collaborate instead of going to war. So I'm going to try that first...


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## spun (Jul 2, 2012)

timeforpain said:


> I have a consulting attorney (unbundled) with option to hire as a representative. However, my attorney wants to start a war like yesterday: seize the kids, psych eval the wife, pull virtually all financial support and make her get an atty, then start the war.


In other words...

He wants to stir the pot and run up your tab.

Hire yourself a mediator and see if you can resolve it that way first.


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

spun said:


> Hire yourself a mediator and see if you can resolve it that way first.


It's a she (the atty).

Mediators won't even talk to me until I get the wife to agree and approach the mediator together with me. 

When I propose this to the wife, she says she needs more time. Which brings us full-circle in this thread.


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## Lifescript (Mar 12, 2012)

Think about it. She will always need more time as long as you keep giving her 70% of your paycheck.


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

Time, I feel you for real. I can relate on a lot of issues with you and your wife (kids in daycare even though she is unemployed, depression, two bachelor degrees and still unemployed, I live in a ****ty situation while she is in the nice house that I pay for).

I interviewed 3 different lawyers, and all 3 came highly reccommended by a local mediator/spokesperson for amicable divorce. All 3 said hit hard and fast (pysch eval, depose the OM, go for full custody). I will tell why they told me this: 1. their own pocket books 2. they could tell I just wanted things to be fair and would willingly go against my own interests to achieve amicability for my kids benefit 3. the shark lawyer my wife hired 4. the suprise legal attacks already employed by my wife 5. their knowledge of the f#ckedupness of the legal system in the f#ckedup southern conservative locale of my residence 6. from what little I told them they figured my wife is a spoiled princess who will absolutely not fight fair 7. loosening my wife up (through excessive legal costs and animossity) to lead her to a reasonable agreement

It is all strategy, and it mainly involves their own ego and finances. But here is the thing, that is the sh!t that gets result. Our legal system routinely screws nice guys (and probably women, but I have no first hand knowledge of the reverse) who just want to get along and be FAIR.

Depsite so many lawyers, judges, and mediators saying that amicable divorce is so much better for kids, I feel the system is broken in so many ways. The emotions that come into dissolution of a family where BOTH parents love their kids so much that they can't think about being away from them for long periods time. I mean of course I am gonna fight for what is fair and best for my kids. 

Here it is though: amicable divorces only work where both parties desire to be amicable. Amicable does not mean only one party capitulates to the other. 

He made a playing violin because he doesn't care about her, and he thinks you shouldn't either. I think you shouldn't care as much as you do because you are enabling her. She is manipulating you. She is going to have to hit rock bottom or find someone else to prop her up. It is going to suck for everyone. If you go through with this, you are going to have to be the bigger person for your kids sake. 

Your calculus is difficult. Short term pain can lead to long term changes, but you are going to go through hell with her either way. What is best for your kids? If she has a pyschotic episode, then maybe you will end up with majority custody. I don't think you will be able to prevent a psychotic episode unless you cow tow to her (and even then it is doubtful). This is her control over you. You should make a plan to deal with the eventual craziness. 

I will say it as plainly as possible: it sounds like your wife has major mental health issues. Internet armchair possibilities include depression, bipolar, narcissist, or BPD. My guess is her childhood was f#cked up (I would wager on some form of abuse) and she can be very attractive when she wants to. 

It is very hard to negotiate with someone who doesn't live in reality. 

So this a downer response, but I will leave you with a funny true story. After my wife BEGGED me not to file because of her indiscretions ("this is not what is right for our family"), while our MC was pleading with me not to file, she went behind my back to suprise file. This insured the legal venue would not be one that automatically awards 50/50 custody (which is the only thing I want out of the divorce), and placed the venue in one that slants towards moms. A month later she gave me a book about amicable divorce called "How to do your divorce right" and it said things like don't be sneaky, compromise, be fair, select your lawyer carefully, etc.


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

wtf2012 said:


> Time, I feel you for real. I can relate on a lot of issues with you and your wife (kids in daycare even though she is unemployed, depression, two bachelor degrees and still unemployed, I live in a ****ty situation while she is in the nice house that I pay for).


Uncanny.

Does she have a housecleaner too? Mine does.



> I interviewed 3 different lawyers, and all 3 came highly reccommended by a local mediator/spokesperson for amicable divorce. All 3 said hit hard and fast (pysch eval, depose the OM, go for full custody). I will tell why they told me this: 1. their own pocket books 2. they could tell I just wanted things to be fair and would willingly go against my own interests to achieve amicability for my kids benefit 3. the shark lawyer my wife hired 4. the suprise legal attacks already employed by my wife 5. their knowledge of the f#ckedupness of the legal system in the f#ckedup southern conservative locale of my residence 6. from what little I told them they figured my wife is a spoiled princess who will absolutely not fight fair 7. loosening my wife up (through excessive legal costs and animossity) to lead her to a reasonable agreement


And you endorse these reasons, or you're objecting to them?

Seems like you're saying "nice guys finish last" which is not what I'm hoping to hear (of course).



> Here it is though: amicable divorces only work where both parties desire to be amicable.


Yeah, there's the rub: it takes TWO to have a good divorce and only one to make it absolutely miserable.



> This insured the legal venue would not be one that automatically awards 50/50 custody (which is the only thing I want out of the divorce), and placed the venue in one that slants towards moms.


Slimy!

I thought someone couldn't forum shop like this without physically *moving *and establishing residency in a different county (usually requires 90 days or so)? Did your spouse actually do this?


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## wtf2012 (Oct 22, 2012)

I'm sure she would have a house cleaner if I could afford it.

I don't endorse those reasons at all. I was just saying there are reasons why divorce is adversary despite one party's best efforts. There are reasons why lawyers are cruel besides the fact they make money. Also all the lawyers said to get to amicability with some people sometimes you have to come out swinging.

I think nice weak guys finish last (doormats). Nice strong guys finish middle of the pack to slightly better than average in most of my experience. Just don't allow yourself to be the victim.

My own course of action was to 1. fight like hell the only way I knew how (cry, beg, plead, negotiate, attempt to control, marriage counseling, accept all the blame, etc.) 2. accept we were done and take of myself (I now have pecs and arm muscles!) 3. lawyer up to protect myself only 4. stop doing any pushing on the divorce and instructed my lawyer to only take a defensive posture 5. stop pointless marriage counseling 6. started dating hotter younger versions of her and let her find out about it 7. worked really hard on not being angry over her affair, her legal shenanigans, and my situation 8. worked very hard on improving my own situation 9. let her know she could have the divorce as soon as she wanted or was able to 10. patiently waited while trying to improve my situation

Currently we are attempting to recouncile, but that is what I have wanted the whole time. I don't know if it will last but the last month has been fairly good. She came around for a few reasons and not just because I was plan b. 

No she didn't change residences, (that would have required she get a job). I live in f#cked up county where you can judge shop. Filing first makes all the difference here for a dad who wants significant parenting time. 

It's hard for me to tell what you should do. I can tell you alot of what not to do. My advice is to make up your mind what you want because either way it will take alot of resolve to accomplish what you want and what is best for your kids. Also decide how much you are willing to do (or put up with) to get what you want so you will know when to settle. 

I did alot of introspection during my 5 month separation, and I dialed into what was really important to me. I also accepted what my worst case was and started planning for what a happy life for me and my kids would look like based on those potential constraints. And I waited while actively working on changing my life and myself. 

My mantra became "This is only temporary." That combined with a deadline for limbo to end (her lease is up in August this year) and making a plan on what my life would look like totally changed my perspective and allowed my patience to flow in while my anger flowed out. Not allowing myself to be the victim allowed my anger to dissipate even more. 

My whole world view has changed. My views on women (especially my wife), the legal system, parenting, honorability, chivarly, masculinity, feminity, intergender relations, vows, consequences, monogamy, sex, and niceness have all radically changed. It was scary, and I am still figuring it all out. I no longer see the world in black and right, and it is confusing. I am not so quick to judge, and I am not so rigid. I have allowed myself to be flexible on myself about what is right. 

I learned that my wife will spin whatever I do to negative for her own benefit. She was using my honor code as a weapon against me, and your wife is doing the same. You need to find a balance that allows you to live with yourself while not letting her manipulate you. This is a major problem for alot of nice guys, and it takes soem flexibility and indifference. Indifference does not mean malicious or cruel. Sometimes when someone wants to hurt themselves, you have to let them.


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## timeforpain (Apr 29, 2012)

wtf2012 said:


> I don't endorse those reasons at all. I was just saying there are reasons why divorce is adversary despite one party's best efforts. There are reasons why lawyers are cruel besides the fact they make money. Also all the lawyers said to get to amicability with some people sometimes you have to come out swinging.


Not sure I buy it, but then I'm new to this. Maybe I'll be back in a month with a fresh opinion. 



> My own course of action was to 1. fight like hell the only way I knew how (cry, beg, plead, negotiate, attempt to control, marriage counseling, accept all the blame, etc.)


I did none of those. I am dead inside with respect to this marriage... my wife tells me I'm "emotionally bereft" because she cries, begs, pleads, accepts *NO *blame, etc., and I just sit there without saying a word.



> 2. accept we were done and take of myself (I now have pecs and arm muscles!) 3. lawyer up to protect myself only 4. stop doing any pushing on the divorce and instructed my lawyer to only take a defensive posture 5. stop pointless marriage counseling 6. started dating hotter younger versions of her and let her find out about it


2 thru 6 sound healthy; #7 is a bit immature. 



> 7. worked really hard on not being angry over her affair, her legal shenanigans, and my situation 8. worked very hard on improving my own situation 9. let her know she could have the divorce as soon as she wanted or was able to 10. patiently waited while trying to improve my situation


Sounds like you did the 179 (ie, you did most of a 180).



> It's hard for me to tell what you should do. I can tell you alot of what not to do. My advice is to make up your mind what you want because either way it will take alot of resolve to accomplish what you want and what is best for your kids.


I saw a really good lawyer today and we set out a timeline for a plan of action. We worked on it together and I'm happy with it. Of course, it'll probably blow up in my face as soon as I pitch it to my wife, but at least I had a good time designing it. 



> My whole world view has changed. My views on women (especially my wife), the legal system, parenting, honorability, chivarly, masculinity, feminity, intergender relations, vows, consequences, monogamy, sex, and niceness have all radically changed. It was scary, and I am still figuring it all out. I no longer see the world in black and right, and it is confusing. I am not so quick to judge, and I am not so rigid. I have allowed myself to be flexible on myself about what is right.


Ironically, I had already started thinking about those same things before all the fit hit the shan last year. This is going to sound insane, but I found peace, wisdom, comfort, grace, and beauty in studying atheism. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens... they changed how I view the world and I feel much more "in place" now.



> I learned that my wife will spin whatever I do to negative for her own benefit. She was using my honor code as a weapon against me, and your wife is doing the same.


I agree, but on the other hand, she can't spin it so much that makes me believe it. (Despite what I wrote above.) Or perhaps more importantly, if I step down off the high-road, I will call BS on myself immediately. That's not worth it to me. I will still be able to look at myself in the mirror when this is over, even if I could have gotten $50,000 more with some strategic ankle-biting.



> You need to find a balance that allows you to live with yourself while not letting her manipulate you. This is a major problem for alot of nice guys, and it takes soem flexibility and indifference. Indifference does not mean malicious or cruel. Sometimes when someone wants to hurt themselves, you have to let them.


My main issue is that I have to stop trying to take care of my wife now. I've been doing it so long it's hard to stop.


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