# Just finished our first MC session...



## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

The counselor didn't seem to hone in at all on our problems, and didn't do anything to help alay our concerns. 

So after our session, we continued to talk on the drive home. In response to that I have two questions:

How do you explain/develop the ability to show love? 
-I've told my wife that I understand that she loves me, but the things she does do not come with the "feeling", emotion behind the action. It's like giving her a hug, and through body language and other non verbal cues it's apparent that I don't really want to give it, but i do it anyway. this, emotionally, does nothing for either partner, other than an action of going through the motions. i want to feel like she sees me as her "superman" and i deserve that. however, the actions are right... but the feeling is all wrong. she says she know's what i'm saying and agrees with it, but at the same time, has no idea how to work on providing the emotion with the action. what would you tell her? how does someone work on that?

other question -- 
what would you think about someone that says that we "talk about the relationship" too much, and they would rather not talk about it? i'm very open about my feelings, and interested in making things work, so i guess i do talk about it a lot... she, on the other hand is closed typically, and so i don't get much communication from her on the topic when i let it die. it's important. why would i not talk about it? right before she blew up last night, this is what she told me. i feel like she would rather not confront the issue and deal with it... sweep it under the rug and let it lay there. untouched. undealt with. 

kinda at a loss here.


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## TheFamilyStone (Jun 26, 2012)

Did your W grow up in a home where love was not openly shown between the spouses? I did and my husband had to teach me that hugging, kissing and saying I love you was okay to do in front of others. It certainly isn't your job to teach her and if you have already tried then it sounds to me that she needs individual counseling as well as marriage counseling. But remember, she can't give you what you are looking for until she has dealt with her issues first.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> other question --
> what would you think about someone that says that we "talk about the relationship" too much, and they would rather not talk about it? i'm very open about my feelings, and interested in making things work, so i guess i do talk about it a lot... she, on the other hand is closed typically, and so i don't get much communication from her on the topic when i let it die. it's important. why would i not talk about it? right before she blew up last night, this is what she told me. i feel like she would rather not confront the issue and deal with it... sweep it under the rug and let it lay there. untouched. undealt with.
> 
> kinda at a loss here.


I just went to a first MC session too. Our MC also suggested we not talk about it outside of MC, and I asked about it. She said at the beginning of MC people often don't have the tools yet for the outside talks to be productive and it's better to let her guide the discussions initially. We have the exact same issue as you, where I'm open with what I feel and wife is not. Our MC said by letting her guide the talks she can rope the wife into the talk and not let her back out so easily while also keeping me from pushing too hard when I shouldn't.

edit: oh yeah. have the exact same issue as your first issue too. My wife does the exact same thing, and admits to it. I'm working the MMSL MAP right now. I think that's one key to it. But personally I think she's going to have to force it a bit in the beginning, and just let herself relax into it and give it a chance. It's never going to work as long as her defenses go up everytime you get close to her or start to speak.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

It takes a few MC appointments for the MC to poke around and lock into your marriage specifically, so give it a little time.

Your wife sounds a lot like mine... eventually I decided to separate. My IC used to say that her emotional intelligence was just not very good, so a lot of times you broadcast a perfect reasonable emotional request - say, once in a while, I'd like a surprise text during the day just to know you are thinking of me - and she just can't hear it. I could ask her 10 times to send me 10 texts, and she'd send all 10, I could surprise text her 10 times and she'd respond all 10 times... but she has an inability to just act on her own... everything had to be prompted by reacting to some action or request.

I don't understand it either but at some point you either accept it or you don't.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Acorn said:


> It takes a few MC appointments for the MC to poke around and lock into your marriage specifically, so give it a little time.
> 
> Your wife sounds a lot like mine... eventually I decided to separate. My IC used to say that her emotional intelligence was just not very good, so a lot of times you broadcast a perfect reasonable emotional request - say, once in a while, I'd like a surprise text during the day just to know you are thinking of me - and she just can't hear it. I could ask her 10 times to send me 10 texts, and she'd send all 10, I could surprise text her 10 times and she'd respond all 10 times... but she has an inability to just act on her own... everything had to be prompted by reacting to some action or request.
> 
> I don't understand it either but at some point you either accept it or you don't.


this is exactly it... clear directions to do something get's heeded. hints, and the want for things to come from the heart gets absolutely nothing. ever. EVER.

edit: how do you fix this?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

TheFamilyStone said:


> Did your W grow up in a home where love was not openly shown between the spouses? I did and my husband had to teach me that hugging, kissing and saying I love you was okay to do in front of others. It certainly isn't your job to teach her and if you have already tried then it sounds to me that she needs individual counseling as well as marriage counseling. But remember, she can't give you what you are looking for until she has dealt with her issues first.


mom and dad have a cordial relationship, but it's openly known that they don't love each other and stayed married for my wife. 

display of affection isn't that off... it's the emotion that comes with it (or lack, thereof, i should say)


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> this is exactly it... clear directions to do something get's heeded. hints, and the want for things to come from the heart gets absolutely nothing. ever. EVER.
> 
> edit: how do you fix this?


Sounds like a sh*t test to me. Stop giving hints and give clear direction. She's asking you to step up and take charge. Stop being wishy-washy and say what you want.


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## TheFamilyStone (Jun 26, 2012)

I think you should flat out tell her what you need as well. You should not have to prompt her. My H told me what he needed first and when I was not able to deliver he asked why and I explained that I wasn't taught to show affection. I'd never seen it. He chose to work with me on it and to teach me that it was okay. If you have given her all the tools and she still doesn't pick them up and use them. That's on her not you.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Drover said:


> Sounds like a sh*t test to me. Stop giving hints and give clear direction. She's asking you to step up and take charge. Stop being wishy-washy and say what you want.





TheFamilyStone said:


> I think you should flat out tell her what you need as well. You should not have to prompt her. My H told me what he needed first and when I was not able to deliver he asked why and I explained that I wasn't taught to show affection. I'd never seen it. He chose to work with me on it and to teach me that it was okay. If you have given her all the tools and she still doesn't pick them up and use them. That's on her not you.


i think you both misunderstood me... 

i am both open and very clear on what i need. my point was that i typically give her direction, and she does it that day when it's fresh in the head. next day and thereafter, unless i remind her, it doesn't get done. i shouldn't have to remind her every day to show me love and affection. that was my point.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

TheFamilyStone said:


> I think you should flat out tell her what you need as well. You should not have to prompt her. My H told me what he needed first and when I was not able to deliver he asked why and I explained that I wasn't taught to show affection. I'd never seen it. He chose to work with me on it and to teach me that it was okay. If you have given her all the tools and she still doesn't pick them up and use them. That's on her not you.


what did he do to work with you on this? for me, affection is an "untangible" for me... i can't describe it, and i certainly have no idea how to build it... it's just there. so, for me, i haven't a clue how to help her out on this. i could show her the actions, and she could do them, but there again, it's just the actions. it's not done with the "feeling". does any of that make sense? am i just crazy and should i be happy with the actions even if i can' sense an emotional feeling in conjunction with the action? -- it's a lot like duty sex, just in every thing else that's done.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> The counselor didn't seem to hone in at all on our problems, and didn't do anything to help alay our concerns.


The counselor is just getting to know you and your wife. Give it time. Also, if you have concerns or subjects important to you, spell them out to the counselor so you can hone in on them during sessions.


> How do you explain/develop the ability to show love?
> -I've told my wife that I understand that she loves me, but the things she does do not come with the "feeling", emotion behind the action. It's like giving her a hug, and through body language and other non verbal cues it's apparent that I don't really want to give it, but i do it anyway. this, emotionally, does nothing for either partner, other than an action of going through the motions. i want to feel like she sees me as her "superman" and i deserve that. however, *the actions are right... but the feeling is all wrong.* she says she know's what i'm saying and agrees with it, but at the same time, has no idea how to work on providing the emotion with the action. what would you tell her? how does someone work on that?


Your question isn't about showing love; it's about feeling love.

Does she show you love in other ways? People here all talk about the Five Love Languages and His Needs, Her Needs. Perhaps you two just aren't understanding the _ways _ in which you need to communicate your feelings with each other.

My bf isn't a "words of affirmation" guy, (unless it's related to my "hotness", lol). So if I were expecting an "I love you" from him every day, I'd be disappointed every day. However, he shows love through acts of service and I see it every day when he makes my coffee or changes my car battery or always thinks to bring home some wine or chocolate, or calls to ask if I need anything from the grocery store when he's going, etc. 

Maybe for your wife, all the physical displays aren't really how she communicates love but does so in other ways that you aren't seeing? Maybe she feels you are discounting her love for you because she isn't displaying it the way you want her to even though she is displaying it in her "native" language?

OR, are you saying she just doesn't FEEL ANY love for you and therefore wouldn't be able to show it in any way at all? You can't teach her to feel love for you if she doesn't love you. 

ETA: you say you want to feel like she sees you as her superman..._are _you her superman? Do you treat her like you're her superman? Or do you criticize her and make her feel like she's not doing things good enough to please you? 



> other question --
> what would you think about someone that says that we "talk about the relationship" too much, and they would rather not talk about it? i'm very open about my feelings, and interested in making things work, so i guess i do talk about it a lot... she, on the other hand is closed typically, and so i don't get much communication from her on the topic when i let it die. it's important. why would i not talk about it? right before she blew up last night, this is what she told me. i feel like she would rather not confront the issue and deal with it... sweep it under the rug and let it lay there. untouched. undealt with.


If all you talk about is relationship issues, that can get to be too much and can send you into a place where you forget to see the good there is between you instead of just issues. It's good to take a break from issues talk every now and then and let each of you breathe for a bit. 

If you're going around and around and around on the same issues all the time, you're not having productive conversations. That can cause a person to not want to talk about the same issues all the time. Especially if she feels like she isn't being heard and it's all you doing the talking.

And if you're the more verbal one and talk talk talk all the time about issues, she can start feeling VERY defensive because, to her, it seems like all you want to do is complain and rehash how unhappy you are with her.

I don't know if any of this is what is going on with you and your wife, but those are some additional perspectives.


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## Jimena (May 28, 2012)

Please be patient. If she's anything like me, her thought process is probably very different from yours. I have a really crappy emotional intelligence (one test wagered I was autistic) because I'm very left-brained & analytical. I got those traits from my parents who love each other very much but are TERRIBLE communicators.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

norajane said:


> My bf isn't a "words of affirmation" guy, (unless it's related to my "hotness", lol). So if I were expecting an "I love you" from him every day, I'd be disappointed every day.


I think this is true but I also believe in a long term relationship, it is our job to become better partners for each other. You have to learn to speak each other's language. If you need an "I love you" every day or you'd be disappointed, why wouldn't your bf learn over time to give you that "I love you" every day?

The sad truth is that, regardless of what your need is, if you spouse can't meet it, you start to wonder if they are even trying. That's a bad spot to be in.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> The counselor didn't seem to hone in at all on our problems, and didn't do anything to help alay our concerns.
> 
> So after our session, we continued to talk on the drive home. In response to that I have two questions:
> 
> ...


Your marriage didn't get this way in the course of an hour, and it won't make much progress getting fixed in one hour. Think of it like fixing someone else's bad handyman project. It takes longer to undo and get it right sometimes than it did for it to be done wrong.

As far as your questions, instead of jumping in to direct answers, I'm going to tell you what strikes me. You have done an outstanding job of saying you're superman and your wife's not pulling her weight. I think a big part of your problems with your marriage have to do with your ability to exaggerate your contributions to the marriage and not give her contributions enough credit. This might sound like criticism, but I don't intend it to be. It's such a common behavior that this has been studied by scholars. (Check out "fundamental attribution error" if you want details.)

Anyway, it sounds like your marriage is suffering from some of this fundamental attribution error. If that's the case, you would benefit from being appreciative that she is making ANY effort to hug and show you affection when it's clear she doesn't want to. After all, she cares enough to at least go through those motions even when she doesn't feel she should. 

If you want her to provide the emotion, you'll need to be what SHE wants. Right now, you believe you're doing all the right things. She doesn't think so. I can see where she feels like you try to make her be someone she isn't (warm and affectionate) and to handle problems your way (by talking.) There are probably a few other ways she feels her needs are unmet, too. If you want to be her Superman and be treated like it, then make it your mission to do the things that will please HER even if you think it's unnecessary.

Based on what you've posted here, you can start with not pushing her to talk when she doesn't want to. When you do talk, avoid criticism and blame. Instead, find reasons to praise her and show appreciation.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> The counselor is just getting to know you and your wife. Give it time. Also, if you have concerns or subjects important to you, spell them out to the counselor so you can hone in on them during sessions.
> 
> 
> Your question isn't about showing love; it's about feeling love.
> ...


good insight on all accounts...

in our mc session, the counselor mentioned the 5 love languages.. and to my surprise, my wife said that her doing laundry, dishes, cleaning, etc... were all ways that she was showing love -- only problem is i could care less about that. isn't the importance of the 5 love languages to learn what you need to do to communicate in a way that your partner understands? 

i've told her many times that if she didn't do it, i'd do it, and it'd all be good. i'd very much rather her do nice things for me, and connect physically and emotionally much more over all of that. 

she is incredibly defensive right now,.. you are probably right about that. i just feel like sometimes she doesn't really listen, and i have to "hammer" in the point... it's probably a fault of mine.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Acorn said:


> The sad truth is that, regardless of what your need is, if you spouse can't meet it, you start to wonder if they are even trying. That's a bad spot to be in.


exactly where i am at, right this moment.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I would suggest that she go to IC first to find out why she's afraid to feel.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Your marriage didn't get this way in the course of an hour, and it won't make much progress getting fixed in one hour. Think of it like fixing someone else's bad handyman project. It takes longer to undo and get it right sometimes than it did for it to be done wrong.
> 
> As far as your questions, instead of jumping in to direct answers, I'm going to tell you what strikes me. You have done an outstanding job of saying you're superman and your wife's not pulling her weight. I think a big part of your problems with your marriage have to do with your ability to exaggerate your contributions to the marriage and not give her contributions enough credit. This might sound like criticism, but I don't intend it to be. It's such a common behavior that this has been studied by scholars. (Check out "fundamental attribution error" if you want details.)
> 
> ...


appreciate the honesty... i think i do a good job... i can certainly get better. i'm not perfect, hope it doesn't come off like that. i just want her to cherish and adore me like i was, you know... sounds kinda mushy for a guy to say that, but that's what i need. 

all very good insight, so i appreciate the thoughts.

edit: the other side of the coin on this though, is that i've given a lot... done a lot for her over the years. i could do more, but in some ways, i'm waiting to see how important it is to her to step up and start showing me love in a way that i can feel it. is it really that important? if not, i don't see why i should break my back to do more...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I think this is true but I also believe in a long term relationship, it is our job to become better partners for each other. You have to learn to speak each other's language. If you need an "I love you" every day or you'd be disappointed, why wouldn't your bf learn over time to give you that "I love you" every day?
> 
> The sad truth is that, regardless of what your need is, if you spouse can't meet it, you start to wonder if they are even trying. That's a bad spot to be in.


Because I know why he's like that, and I don't feel the need to change him into someone he isn't. I know he loves me, I see it in the things he does, his behavior and consideration of me, the physical affection he gives all the time, and in the time he spends with me and the mindshare he gives me. It's more important that I see and know that he loves me, than that he show me in some specific way that isn't natural to him. I don't expect to hear him say words and he doesn't expect me to be glued to his side every minute. We accommodate each other.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> good insight on all accounts...
> 
> in our mc session, the counselor mentioned the 5 love languages.. and to my surprise, my wife said that her doing laundry, dishes, cleaning, etc... were all ways that she was showing love -- only problem is i could care less about that. *isn't the importance of the 5 love languages to learn what you need to do to communicate in a way that your partner understands? *
> 
> ...


It's a two way street. The other side of the 5 love languages is _appreciating _that your partner IS showing love in their own ways and _understanding _that is how they show love naturally and embracing it. Just because that is not how you receive love, doesn't mean her intention AND FEELING should be discounted as insignificant.

Many women have been taught from day 1 that you show love to your man by caring for him - cooking, cleaning, laundry. So, she can feel like you aren't "listening" when she does those things FOR you because she loves you and discount them like her love doesn't matter unless it's shown only in your way.

Maybe read the book and learn more - could help.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> i've given a lot... done a lot for her over the years. i could do more, but in some ways, i'm waiting to see how important it is to her to step up and start showing me love in a way that i can feel it.


So...you two are not on the same team any more. You against her. 

That'll never work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> i just feel like sometimes she doesn't really listen, and i have to "hammer" in the point... it's probably a fault of mine.


 Point made.

And trust me, if you (a male) hammer in a point, you can be almost GUARANTEED that your wife will shut you out, shut down, tune you out, and not care. That's what we do. We're like cats - show us you're dangerous (to our mental well being), we pull back and protect ourselves.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

norajane said:


> It's a two way street. The other side of the 5 love languages is _appreciating _that your partner IS showing love in their own ways and _understanding _that is how they show love naturally and embracing it. Just because that is not how you receive love, doesn't mean her intention AND FEELING should be discounted as insignificant.


Well it should not be discounted, but if your language is doing laundry and his is something else, it is fair to say that you are loving your husband and he feels unloved.

If you changed to his language, you'd be loving your husband and he'd feel loved too. So much better!

The stereotypical story on TAM is a wife that feels starved for affection, and husbands who feel starved for sex. Long term, it will be impossible to convince the woman to do without affection and accept non-stop sex, nor will the man be too keen on a sexless lifestyle full of affection. At some point, the bridge needs to be crossed and each spouse must make an effort at the other's love language.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> At some point, the bridge needs to be crossed and each spouse must make an effort at the other's love language.


The key is crossing the bridge. If he won't meet her halfway simply because he doesn't give a crap about how she shows her love naturally, then she's not likely to be able to solve this by trying to cross the bridge to his side. 

She IS listening to him, she HAS heard him say he needs physical affection like hugs and touching, and she IS doing it. She is trying to cross the bridge. He's not satisfied because it's not accompanied by the affectionate feeling he was hoping to get out of it. Now what? He wants to stop showing her love because he's not feeling her love the way wants? :scratchhead:


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> The key is crossing the bridge. If he won't meet her halfway simply because he doesn't give a crap about how she shows her love naturally, then she's not likely to be able to solve this by trying to cross the bridge to his side.
> 
> She IS listening to him, she HAS heard him say he needs physical affection like hugs and touching, and she IS doing it. She is trying to cross the bridge. He's not satisfied because it's not accompanied by the affectionate feeling he was hoping to get out of it. Now what? He wants to stop showing her love because he's not feeling her love the way wants? :scratchhead:


woah... hang on. nobody said i was withdrawing all love towards my wife. she still knows very well that i love her... no doubt in her mind whatsoever. me doing "more" is simply a function of understanding that your "best" is never accomplished, and that it is only sought after.

edit: your other point was clearly made, however. i need to realize that she is trying... and that like learning anything in life, it takes time to master. you are totally right.


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## tina2244 (May 22, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your story mattyjman.. Proves further to the point that my H and I need some MC. Too bad we can't afford it right now  I think there are things that we can learn by reading and acknowledging each others needs better. I don't even know my H's love language.. when he comes back in 10 days, I'm going to get him to take the quiz.. I took mine and I see why I've been struggling with a long distance marriage. 

Great post Kathy! I read part of your blog already too. Top 3 relationship mistakes that women make.. I think I make 2.. oops. I've thought about how I'm not a priority in my H's life and felt that way since we got married 2 years ago. You spell it out so good in your blog. He reached his "goal" and now has moved onto other projects.. I'm struggling to be his chosen priority and its a losing battle these days. 

Anyways sorry to hijack.. The title of the post struck a chord with me and I enjoyed reading peoples thoughts.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Well it should not be discounted, but if your language is doing laundry and his is something else, it is fair to say that you are loving your husband and he feels unloved.
> 
> If you changed to his language, you'd be loving your husband and he'd feel loved too. So much better!
> 
> The stereotypical story on TAM is a wife that feels starved for affection, and husbands who feel starved for sex. Long term, it will be impossible to convince the woman to do without affection and accept non-stop sex, nor will the man be too keen on a sexless lifestyle full of affection. At some point, the bridge needs to be crossed and each spouse must make an effort at the other's love language.


what this really gets at... is thinking that the other person thinks and feels the same way about everything. if your needs are getting met, then of course your partners needs are getting met... right? wrong. dead wrong. (unless you both have the same love language). how you show your love shouldn't be a chore in changing to a different language, because it doesn't impact how you receive love from your partner. it should be a relatively simple task of modifying your thought process of "i want to show love, and so i'll do "x" because i like "x". instead it should be "i want to show love, and he'll like "y" , so i'll do "y" because he would appreciate that."


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> she is incredibly defensive right now,.. you are probably right about that. i just feel like sometimes she doesn't really listen, and i have to "hammer" in the point... it's probably a fault of mine.


I do the same thing. It's a real struggle not to just keep hammering until she acknowledges what you're saying, but it just doesn;t seem like it should be that hard for her either. Anyway, I'm learning...


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> appreciate the honesty... i think i do a good job... i can certainly get better. i'm not perfect, hope it doesn't come off like that. i just want her to cherish and adore me like i was, you know... sounds kinda mushy for a guy to say that, but that's what i need.
> 
> all very good insight, so i appreciate the thoughts.
> 
> edit: the other side of the coin on this though, is that i've given a lot... done a lot for her over the years. i could do more, but in some ways, i'm waiting to see how important it is to her to step up and start showing me love in a way that i can feel it. is it really that important? if not, i don't see why i should break my back to do more...


You sound exactly like what I was feeling right before i just shut down awhile back and pretty much emotionally quit on things just to avoid the hurt. But the fact is, if you want it to work, you're going to have to change. She probably doesn't need you to do more cherishing and give more affection. She probably needs you to back off and stop pushing, which honestly requires more effort than what you've been doing.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> what this really gets at... is thinking that the other person thinks and feels the same way about everything. if your needs are getting met, then of course your partners needs are getting met... right? wrong. dead wrong. (unless you both have the same love language). how you show your love shouldn't be a chore in changing to a different language, because it doesn't impact how you receive love from your partner. it should be a relatively simple task of modifying your thought process of "i want to show love, and so i'll do "x" because i like "x". instead it should be "i want to show love, and he'll like "y" , so i'll do "y" because he would appreciate that."


How do you show love to your wife? Is that how she receives love? Do you think you could simply change to show your love in a different way if her love languages are different from how you naturally show love?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What makes you uncomfortable, in a one on one situation? For many women, it's 'hammering.' Males are typically bigger, stronger, and more aggressive. Hammering is usually more typically a male's way of getting a point across. 

Women...are different. Being the weaker sex, over the millennia we've found other ways to get what we need. Talking, reading body language, more subtle insinuations...those are comfortable to us. 

When someone 'hammers' on us, we defend ourselves. We rarely listen.


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## Drover (Jun 11, 2012)

turnera said:


> What makes you uncomfortable, in a one on one situation? For many women, it's 'hammering.' Males are typically bigger, stronger, and more aggressive. Hammering is usually more typically a male's way of getting a point across.
> 
> Women...are different. Being the weaker sex, over the millennia we've found other ways to get what we need. Talking, reading body language, more subtle insinuations...those are comfortable to us.
> 
> When someone 'hammers' on us, we defend ourselves. We rarely listen.


I've been learning this. And it's especially true when you've already passive-aggressive nice-guyed her into not trusting you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've always had a big need for a nice looking house. Goes back to when my dad left and we were so broke we couldn't afford to fix our ratty lawn mower and a neighbor kid came over and offered to fix it (because the neighbors were upset about our trashy house). But I married my father, natch, and he has let 3 houses fall apart over the last 30+ years. So he Love Busts me in a major way, KNOWING what my top Emotional Need is (maintenance) and refusing to do it. So I resent.

HE has always felt insecure in love, with an alcoholic dad and a nutty mom and spoiled siblings. So his top ENs are love and affection, couldn't care less what people think about his house. But I'm so resentful that I have a hard time giving him affection, so then HE is resentful so he feels why should he give me what he knows I need...

You can see where this leads - nowhere.

ONE of you has to go first. It's usually the one coming to forums and getting the boatload of advice. Once you step up and see that she's getting what she needs (and not Love Busting her), HER love bucket will overflow, she'll feel love again (hopefully), and she'll start giving you what you need.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> How do you show love to your wife? Is that how she receives love? Do you think you could simply change to show your love in a different way if her love languages are different from how you naturally show love?


she likes compliments, affirmation, and event related stuff... 

yes, i can and do do it. if it was different, then i wouldn't have a hard time changing. i don't know why you make this out to be such a challenge... i would do anything in my power to communicate to my wife my love for her in a way that she would understand. 

again... it's not how i receive love, so why does it matter what action/feeling is necessary, as long as you do it? it's like you are implying that in order to show love a different way you have to give something up...


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> she likes compliments, affirmation, and event related stuff...
> 
> yes, i can and do do it. if it was different, then i wouldn't have a hard time changing. i don't know why you make this out to be such a challenge... i would do anything in my power to communicate to my wife my love for her in a way that she would understand.
> 
> again... it's not how i receive love, so why does it matter what action/feeling is necessary, as long as you do it? *it's like you are implying that in order to show love a different way you have to give something up...*


You have to change ingrained behavior and start doing something else. People aren't so great with change on demand. Especially if they don't feel appreciated for the things they do - like your wife is currently feeling each time you tell her that her way of showing love (cooking and cleaning for you) doesn't matter to you at all. And when she does try it your way, which she's been doing, you tell her it's not good enough because you still don't feel loved properly. That's tough.

Can YOU change to feel more loved by her daily acts of service (cooking and cleaning)? If you can't, then maybe you can understand how changing to show her love for you in other ways is challenging for her.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> What makes you uncomfortable, in a one on one situation? For many women, it's 'hammering.' Males are typically bigger, stronger, and more aggressive. Hammering is usually more typically a male's way of getting a point across.
> 
> Women...are different. Being the weaker sex, over the millennia we've found other ways to get what we need. Talking, reading body language, more subtle insinuations...those are comfortable to us.
> 
> When someone 'hammers' on us, we defend ourselves. We rarely listen.


what's a man to think, when he does communicate the right way and nothing happens... "she didn't get it". gotta try again. hammer hammer hammer. 

tough lesson to learn, this one. but i think in order to consider something "heard", something has to be "done". otherwise, if it's heard, and not done, then what are you left to assume. i'd rather assume she didn't get it, not that she just doesn't care. 

so in all fairness, if you don't want "males" to hammer the point, do something about it. just my two cents on that. women are strange indeed... but i love 'em


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> You have to change ingrained behavior and start doing something else. People aren't so great with change on demand. Especially if they don't feel appreciated for the things they do - like your wife is currently feeling each time you tell her that her way of showing love (cooking and cleaning for you) doesn't matter to you at all.
> 
> Can YOU change to feel more loved by her daily acts of service (cooking and cleaning)? If you can't, then maybe you can understand how changing to show her love for you in other ways is challenging for her.


i disagree for the most part. it's not like you are changing yourself, you are simply doing something a little different than before... in an effort to show your SO more love. it's not a chore, and it shouldn't be hard to do. if it's hard to change, then you are getting some self satisfaction in doing it. that makes sense. so keep doing that. but also add something new in there that would really be appreciated by your SO. 

the part that i do agree with, is in understanding that she doesn't know what my love language is, and she is "attempting" to show in a way that makes sense to her. i can communicate a bit better that while i appreciate the effort, and i understand why she's doing it, that what i really need is "x". but acknowledging that what she's been doing this whole time wasn't just a waste and is appreciated on some levels... i can do that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> what's a man to think, when he does communicate the right way and nothing happens...


Seriously? Or are you joking?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> i think in order to consider something "heard", something has to be "done". otherwise, if it's heard, and not done, then what are you left to assume. i'd rather assume she didn't get it, not that she just doesn't care.


Well, that's great if YOU want to think that. Doesn't make it a universal truth, or even something that anyone else has to think.

There are a MILLION reasons why she might hear what you say and choose not to act on it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> it's not a chore, and it shouldn't be hard to do. if it's hard to change, then you are getting some self satisfaction in doing it.


Again, you are making assumptions for how YOU think someone ELSE should act. 

Who are you to tell her how she should intrepret, feel, and act? 

It's true that we all get a payoff from doing what we do. Even if it harms us (or others). 

My IC wanted me to do a thing. A REALLY simple thing. To tell my husband, on a Saturday morning, that I was going to go out and do something on my own, by myself, that afternoon. That's it. To just say 'I'm going out today to go look at towels (fill in the blank)'. In 3 years of IC, I could not get past my fear of my husband's reaction (from his years of verbally 'hammering' home his points) to be able to do that one simple thing.

You have no clue what your wife is really thinking or feeling. That's clear. So why do you try to place YOUR view of what should be simple on HER?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Matty, the more you write, the more I empathize with your wife. You are full of double standards and hypocrisy.

Your attitude consistently seems to be that while you might not be perfect, you're doing enough and she isn't. You defend the way you "hammer" at her even when you're completely aware that it DOES NOT WORK! But you feel you're right so you'll keep doing it anyway. That just doesn't make any sense. 

You're both doing the same exact things to each other and have the same attitude as each other. I'd bet my life savings (all 30 cents of it!) that she says, "I do all this stuff to show him I love him, and he just doesn't get it. I've tried to tell him how I feel, and he doesn't listen, so I don't even want to talk any more. He is just too defensive and thinks he's right all the time. He treats me like I'm stupid or worthless!" 

You can't change her. What you can do is be the kind of man that she's motivated to please. She wants you to notice that the house is clean and compliment her on it. She wants you to treat her like your Superwoman without her having to be someone she isn't.... you know, exactly what you're expecting from her. And she's come to believe that it's probably not going to happen, so she'll go to MC but she's asking herself, "What's the use? He's not going to change. I do so much and never feel appreciated." 

You guys will not make any progress until one of you lets down your guard. You can't make her do it, so why not start with yourself? Instead of showing/receiving love the way YOU want, try it her way for a few weeks. It can't really hurt anything, can it?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Well, that's great if YOU want to think that. Doesn't make it a universal truth, or even something that anyone else has to think.
> 
> There are a MILLION reasons why she might hear what you say and choose not to act on it.


wouldn't common courtesy say that if you don't want to act on something that's important to your partner, that you at least tell him? 

otherwise we are just wondering ...


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Matty, our wives seem very similar, so I wanted to share that when I came here, I was pushing and got a lot of similar responses and didn't really believe/understand what I was doing wrong.

It took a long time and a lot of effort to pull everything back so she felt safe. As part of that process, I also learned a lot of things I was overdoing (that should have been shared responsibilities) to compensate for things missing in the marriage. I will confess that just last week in a phone call with her - after working THREE YEARS on this - I finally listened to a conversation and when she got to the part where I was supposed to fix everything, I said, "So what are you going to do now?". She was stunned. So was I. I didn't let it show but after I hung up I felt like I just won the Super Bowl.

My wife has not yet stepped up but it does not mean your efforts will meet a similar fate!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> wouldn't common courtesy say that if you don't want to act on something that's important to your partner, that you at least tell him?
> 
> otherwise we are just wondering ...


 :rofl:
You really haven't read much about women, have you?

Women don't work like you do, matty. They just don't.

Until you can accept that, and stop expecting her to do things the way you do, you will continue to be frustrated and to sabotage your relationship.

Time to read the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Mars-Women-Venus-Communication-Relationships/dp/006016848X


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Again, you are making assumptions for how YOU think someone ELSE should act.
> 
> Who are you to tell her how she should intrepret, feel, and act?
> 
> ...


this was my response to you... not my wife. don't confuse the two. and... it was simply my opinion. i understand that it's obviously hard... what i don't get is why? from my viewpoint it doesn't make sense. either way, i appreciate your perspective in all of these comments. thank you


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Matty, the more you write, the more I empathize with your wife. You are full of double standards and hypocrisy.
> 
> Your attitude consistently seems to be that while you might not be perfect, you're doing enough and she isn't. You defend the way you "hammer" at her even when you're completely aware that it DOES NOT WORK! But you feel you're right so you'll keep doing it anyway. That just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> ...


Really?

The more I read the more I think that one day the OP is going to wake up and realizing that he's beating a dead horse here...

True affection is by definition naturally and organically given...it's utterly impossible to give _forced affection _...and have it still be _defined as_ and more importantly _feel like_ affection.

And I'm sorry. I get the whole languages of love thing to an extent...but here we must make the distinction between LOVE and ATTRACTION

At the end of the day if you have _no desire_ to "love on" you spouse thats a HUGE PROBLEM...I don't care how many dishes you clean or rugs you vacuum...you have lost your "attraction" to the person at the very least...if not your love for them

You don't clean the house to show someone you're "attracted to them"

That's one thing at the heart of this OP...do you think your wife feels attracted to you? If you don't---she's probably not...not saying you can't reclaim that...but I am saying it's a core problen

Also, even in very emotionally inhibited people you can usually sense a desire to "let the walls come down"...even if they can't act on it well...usually these people will find it easier to be affectionate with a pet or baby...(something that they don't have take a risk of rejection with)

That would involve you "reading" your wife and gauging were her distance comes from


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Matty, the more you write, the more I empathize with your wife. You are full of double standards and hypocrisy.
> 
> Your attitude consistently seems to be that while you might not be perfect, you're doing enough and she isn't. You defend the way you "hammer" at her even when you're completely aware that it DOES NOT WORK! But you feel you're right so you'll keep doing it anyway. That just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> ...


lots of golden nuggets in here ... point taken. however, i think you have read too much into what i've written in some places. understandably so, since i haven't really displayed any of our history (unless you have read my other posts). either way, i appreciate your insight. 

i would be curious if you could qualify your statement of "double standards and hypocrisy", please. what are you driving at here?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> :rofl:
> You really haven't read much about women, have you?
> 
> Women don't work like you do, matty. They just don't.
> ...


i suppose not. however, i still this it's common courtesy, regardless if "women aren't made that way" which is the comment you seem to be making...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Matty, our wives seem very similar, so I wanted to share that when I came here, I was pushing and got a lot of similar responses and didn't really believe/understand what I was doing wrong.
> 
> It took a long time and a lot of effort to pull everything back so she felt safe. As part of that process, I also learned a lot of things I was overdoing (that should have been shared responsibilities) to compensate for things missing in the marriage. I will confess that just last week in a phone call with her - after working THREE YEARS on this - I finally listened to a conversation and when she got to the part where I was supposed to fix everything, I said, "So what are you going to do now?". She was stunned. So was I. I didn't let it show but after I hung up I felt like I just won the Super Bowl.
> 
> My wife has not yet stepped up but it does not mean your efforts will meet a similar fate!


help me understand a bit more... she's mentioned the words "safe", "security", etc before when talking about me in our current challenges. what did you do to pull back/change that made the difference. It also sounds like it still hasn't made a difference, so was that really the issue, or were you solving a symptom of a deeper problem? 

just trying to understand here. i'm completely open to learning from others peoples mistakes (no offense - it's just easier that way  )


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> Really?
> 
> The more I read the more I think that one day the OP is going to wake up and realizing that he's beating a dead horse here...
> 
> ...


i've thought there was an attracting issue as well.. but if there is, she hasn't shared it with me. (i've asked before). as i posted just a bit earlier, it could be the "safe" security" etc... things that are making me less attractive, not from a physical standpoint, but from a partner standpoint. which them stems into a much larger issue than i thought... i think... our goals and asperations, how we want to raise kids ... there is so much tension there due to how opposing we are to each others ideals. i gotta figure out how to fix that, and then i think we'd be back on track.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I do understand that. But I'm trying to help you see that it is your attitude, your belief system, your method of approaching problems, that your wife sees and reacts to. I guarantee that if we can figure this out about you in just a few short posts, your wife knows this tenfold. 

Realize that most people never get this deep into how and why and all. Usually it's one spouse coming here for help while the other never digs deeper than 'I'm unhappy' - and never even realizes she can or should.

So it behooves the one coming here to take all this in, see how it fits their situation, and figure out what steps to take to get the other spouse 'on the same team.' Even if you don't want to.

When I first came to a forum, I was convinced my DH was abusive; just miserable. I kept getting told 'look in the mirror.' No! I didn't want to! It was all HIS fault and I wanted them to teach me how to change HIM. After a few backbreaking years of very patient posters continuing to put my feet to the fire, I finally realized I needed to look in the mirror. Change what *I* did. Because I was the one asking for help. Didn't want to. Didn't even particularly like him any more. But I tried. Started looking at it all from HIS perspective and removing the ways I was Love Busting HIM.

The change in him was instantaneous. And then it hit me: He had been just as miserable as I had been. All he wanted was to be loved. And, because I'm a woman (and don't tell my spouse what I need, lol), I just held onto my resentment like a badge of honor instead of meeting halfway.

There's something that your wife needs from you. Up to you to figure it out. MC will help. Once you're able to figure it out (either not Love Busting her or meeting Emotional Needs you're not now meeting) and make those changes, she WILL come around (unless she's too damaged and needs IC).


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> i suppose not. however, i still this it's common courtesy, regardless if "women aren't made that way" which is the comment you seem to be making...


You can think that all you want. But you're not her. 

And if it bothers you so much, why aren't you telling her this? 

In a non-hammering way, of course.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> she's mentioned the words "safe", "security", etc before when talking about me in our current challenges.


That's the hammering we're talking about.

Men take on challenges head on. Women skirt the issue, watch carefully, see if it's safe to engage, test their toe in the water and, if they get swatted at, they withdraw the toe and tell you they don't feel safe.

I like to use men = dogs and women = cats. 

Men just burst in ready to love and be loved, like a dog. Women sit back and tentatively offer their affection, all the while keeping an eye out for danger so they can run back to safety.

And understand that if she has felt unsafe with you, like a cat, it may be a LONG time til she starts feeling totally safe again.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> help me understand a bit more... she's mentioned the words "safe", "security", etc before when talking about me in our current challenges. what did you do to pull back/change that made the difference. It also sounds like it still hasn't made a difference, so was that really the issue, or were you solving a symptom of a deeper problem?
> 
> just trying to understand here. i'm completely open to learning from others peoples mistakes (no offense - it's just easier that way  )


I have crazy analogies sometimes but say you are in a car driving her somewhere. You start discussing a problem, and get frustrated as she does not respond to you - she doesn't even acknowledge it! It ticks you off and you get angrier and angrier and in your anger the car goes faster and faster and eventually it's all she can think about is SLOW THE CAR DOWN and she can't even hear your problems. She doesn't feel safe and you get more frustrated and go faster.

This is how I learned to think of it anyway. 

I fixed it by learning to let go. I stopped the talks, I stopped asking her to do things, and really I got where I am now where I firmly believe I will be ok with or without her. I am approachable, but I'm letting her approach me now.

I instead worked on me, realized a lot of shortcomings, got better with my kids. And surprisingly, while doing all this, I got noticed for an opportunity at work, I get noticed more by women, am much closer to my kids, and generally feel better about myself.

I now realize that SHE is missing out on me. 

So, like I said, my wife might not want to play ball with me, so I'll just have to settle for the promotion, the attention from women, the better bond with my kids, etc. Maybe she'll come around, maybe she won't. We'll see.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

matty, give us a couple examples of issues you've had, and how they went about getting resolved - what you did and what she did.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

^ good god... "resolved" issues??? how about revolving  j/k... but not really. 

i'll have to think on this one for a bit... 

i'll say from a generic standpoint, i'm typically the one to compromise. the issues are almost always resolved in a lose/win situation. it's never a win/win compromise. my perception, at least


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> That's the hammering we're talking about.
> 
> Men take on challenges head on. Women skirt the issue, watch carefully, see if it's safe to engage, test their toe in the water and, if they get swatted at, they withdraw the toe and tell you they don't feel safe.
> 
> ...


i can't stand cats... hate them really. but i get the analogy. in fact, i can see how my wifes cat hates me, and how long it does take for her to come back around... 

the awful realization is that i feel like i've been doing all the giving, and her doing all the taking. my issue in this relationship is that i don't feel that she gives back. i pulled away, and have now come to the realization that things probably won't change, and that i need to move on... in fact, i'm okay with the prospect of moving on. however, i would very much rather work things out. 

however, the focus here has been that i HAVEN"T been doing enough, and there is more to give... what the... I'm a pretty logical person, and maybe logic isn't the best thing to use in fixing a relationship. i just don't see how me doing MORE will get her to do more to contribute as well... 

this is not argumentative... someone needs to help me understand this from a global, big picture perspective, and then i think it will make sense.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> i can't stand cats... hate them really. but i get the analogy. in fact, i can see how my wifes cat hates me, and how long it does take for her to come back around...
> 
> the awful realization is that i feel like i've been doing all the giving, and her doing all the taking. my issue in this relationship is that i don't feel that she gives back. i pulled away, and have now come to the realization that things probably won't change, and that i need to move on... in fact, i'm okay with the prospect of moving on. however, i would very much rather work things out.
> 
> ...


In your case, doing less of what you are currently doing that makes her feel not secure and not safe is the "more" that you need to do.

For example, less hammering = she will feel more safe to talk with you. Hammering makes her feel insecure (criticized, unloved, treated like she's stupid) and unsafe (attacked because you want to keep talking about her faults - what you don't like or what she is or isn't doing).


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

^ hmm... i see. i can do that. 

the security thing is different though... it's all about our differing goals and objectives, and if i was to be less pig headed about our future, it would be to completely convert over to her side... there is no middle ground on that one. sometimes i fear that this will be the reason we won't be able to make things work.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> however, the focus here has been that i HAVEN"T been doing enough, and there is more to give... what the... I'm a pretty logical person, and maybe logic isn't the best thing to use in fixing a relationship. i just don't see how me doing MORE will get her to do more to contribute as well...


I don't think you're hearing us. We're not telling you to do MORE. We're telling you to do SMARTER. From a more educated standpoint. And if you're doing all the giving you're definitely not doing the right things. We can help with that. The specific examples will really help us pinpoint things.

How long married, your background and hers, family stories, any abuse in your histories, personality types, living situation, kids/ages, work histories, and some examples of things that you think didn't work out (or things that did).


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> wouldn't common courtesy say that if you don't want to act on something that's important to your partner, that you at least tell him?


Yes its would, but excessive fearfulness and/or distrust will overwhelm common courtesy toward an intimate partner every time. If your counselor can find their way to help you two (and I wouldn't necessarily count on it) he/she would surface the characteristics of yours and your wife's family backgrounds that have brought the two of you into this situation. Understanding this will help you develop understanding of each other which is a necessary foundation for improvement


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> ^ hmm... i see. i can do that.
> 
> the security thing is different though... it's all about our differing goals and objectives, and if i was to be less pig headed about our future, it would be to completely convert over to her side... there is no middle ground on that one. sometimes i fear that this will be the reason we won't be able to make things work.


 That will be a great area to practice on. Be sure to address that in your MC, too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yes its would, but excessive fearfulness and/or distrust will overwhelm common courtesy toward an intimate partner every time.


Definitely! My husband had no problem letting me know when I was doing something wrong. But we weren't allowed to discuss anything HE did wrong! What did that teach me? To stop talking to him. He never even noticed. Why? Because I was still meeting all his needs.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> help me understand a bit more... she's mentioned the words "safe", "security", etc before when talking about me in our current challenges.


Bingo. Safety and security are the hardwired emotional priority. Something is interfering with your wife's ability to feel these, probably baggage from childhood or previous relationships. Understanding the nature of her hurt(s) from the past while refraining from judging or condemning her and helping her release all this bad stuff and put it behind her is your present calling


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> I don't think you're hearing us. We're not telling you to do MORE. We're telling you to do SMARTER. From a more educated standpoint. And if you're doing all the giving you're definitely not doing the right things. We can help with that. The specific examples will really help us pinpoint things.
> 
> How long married, your background and hers, family stories, any abuse in your histories, personality types, living situation, kids/ages, work histories, and some examples of things that you think didn't work out (or things that did).


okay, I've posted this in a few other threads, but to bring it all together...

I grew up Mormon (religious beliefs have something to do with this i think), but am no longer religious much at all, definitely not Mormon. She is from Bulgaria, and was also raised Mormon. We met at college when we were young, dated for a year, and go married thereafter, when she was 19 and I was 22. I come from a home where parents are still married, never fought or argued that i knew of, and dad was sole provider. she, while her parents are married, the only reason as she knows openly, was for her, otherwise, her parents wouldn't be together. her father is disabled, and pretty much a bum (not a function of his disability) and mom needed to work, and did most of the parenting it seems as well. She is EXTREMELY close with her mom. She is an only child, while i am the youngest of 5. 

as far as personality, i have a very strong willed individual (you can tell) but (used to be) really passive when i want people to like me... (like i said earlier, recovering nice guy). I'm also a thinker and problem solver, and am very successful at work because of this. i prefer to be introverted most times, but am comfortable being extroverted as well... it's just not preferred. 

she is (don't kill me here... this is my observation) very strong willed as well. never really learned to share, and so her self absorbed attitude extends into all of her relationships and communication. she likes to be active and do stuff with her hands. she is a social bug, but never likes to be in the spotlight. loyalty seems to be important to her, and she likes comfort, and the status quo - probably why any change is hard for her. 

as far as work, i work as a director of a medium sized company, and work consistently with the owners in the development of the business. she works an entry level position, has applied for management and team lead roles, but never been promoted. despite this, she's maintained the job for over 5 years, despite my encouragement for her to venture out and get a job that utilizes her degree.

so, specific arguments/issues ... this one is hard. i'm not sure why, but i've never been one to remember a lot of details, but i certainly remember the feeling. it makes it hard for me to give concrete examples because of this. outside of writing things down in a ledger (which feels so wrong to document issues)... i don't really remember a lot until something jogs my memory. 

here are a few things recently that have bothered me (please don't harp on these, they have already been diagnosed as nice guy issues):
wanting to hang out very frequently with her friends
flirting with anyone that would give her the time of day
consistent prioritizing of her needs over mine

a recent example was our 6th year anniversary. i planned a trip and told her to not plan anything for that weekend. she agreed, but the day before we left, she told me that she wanted to delay the trip because she had some homework to complete before the following thursday, and needed time on both saturday and sunday to complete it. i felt completely blown off, and that she was making this homework assignment and subsequent grade (more of a hobby for her anyway, it's spanish elective and she already has a degree) more important than having a weekend that i already spent planning to celebrate our marriage. 

i told her that i was going, wanted her to come, but if she didn't want to, that was fine and i was going anyway. after some discussion, she decided (relented) to come. the hurt however, maintained. why would she choose her classwork over me?

there are lots of little things like that, that i have allowed to happen in the past, that have piled up. many times of her deciding that her interests were more important than me or mine. 

that's the latest example i have... 

the overall feeling that i get, however, and i don't think anyone has agreed with me, but it makes sense to me, is that i'm feeling the way i do, because she really is doing it. she really is taking me for granted, ignoring my needs, making her priorities higher than me or mine. here's the kicker though... she a- doesn't know she's doing it, and b- has no idea how to change it. 

being an only child, her mom giving her whatever she wanted, and never having to share anything -- there has to be some implications of those actions. 

now, the status quo... when she came out here, i had to do everything for her, with her. it was a cultural shift, and i met her soon after her getting into the states. i took care of her basically... housing, insurance, teaching her how to drive, helped her get a job, etc... and that "helping" and "giving" behavior has persisted for some time. i'd say about 2 years ago i realized that my needs weren't really getting met, and i was getting steamrolled... and so i spoke up about it. passively and not very assertively.. mostly complaining i guess. we would have spats, where we would argue for a few weeks, have a good few months, and then cycle back. 

recently i decided i was fed up with it, told her that i needed to see some love, or i was going to walk. i was tired of being used. my sister suggested me telling her instead of just dropping her, and giving it one more shot. she also suggested me looking into some online communities... which is when i found you guys. 

argued against the NMMNG premise, then read the book, and i said wow. since then i've started to establish boundaries, be more assertive and less passive-agressive, and started to be a bit more comfortable with who i am. for quite a while i've been deriving complete happiness from my giving to her. after i started thinking about myself again, i've realized i'm a pretty awesome guy. i've performed some functions of a 180 lite, to establish me being bit colder side of the relationship in an attempt to get her to warm up some. 

she's noticed and said she hasn't liked it, but have also seen a few attempts to be nicer/more giving. 

with all this however, i don't think that "manning up" is the complete answer, and there is a bit more involved here. which is why i sought out marriage counseling -- she didn't want to go, but i persisted and we ended up having our first session the other day. 

--oh, that's a good example ... after suggesting MC, and her protesting it, she finally gave in saying that she'd go. only catch was her employer covers three free sessions and she needed to set it up. she knew how important is was to me, and said she would do it the next day. the following day i asked her if it was set up, she said she "forgot", apologized and reassured me it was going to happen the next day. for the next week, it went on like this, each day with her forgetting, and each time apologizing, recognizing that this was important, and that she would do it the following day. eventually that gut us here, but there is another example for you guys... --

so anyway, i've already started to address the manning up, making changes in myself, etc... and i like the new me... honestly, it's great. i seem to have more confidence, not really seeking others approval anymore -- there is really some insightful stuff there. 

however, none of this changes her. it just makes me wish she would meet my needs, and long for someone that appreciates me for who i am and what i do. on some levels, i just think that she's incapable of feeling for someone like that. on some other levels, i just want to say "eff it" and move on to someone i know that wouldn't be like that...

issues from us getting married WAY to early in life... we didn't even know what we wanted. but now we are trying to steer our life together, and we just can't come together on any future goal .. except for making money and being great parents... all the filler stuff... it's just ballistic when we talk about it. we don't agree on anything... food tastes are different, cultural ideals are different, parenting perspectives are different. i would guess that she is resentful that i don't really care for the food they eat, and for the way that she was brought up (the same way she wants to rear the kids - when we have them), that i really don't have any interest in moving from country to country (real life goal of hers - no joke) like we were in the military or someething. and i have issues with her because her ideals are so against mine. any time we talk about the future, it's all messed up. 

and that brings you up to speed about last night. she doesn't want to talk about it anymore - lots of pressure she says. but that says to me that she just doesn't want to confront the issue and sweep it under the rug. then on the other hand, she feels frustration because a- i want to upset the status quo in our relationship ("everything is fine, what we have is just fine, why do you need anything different"), and b- because she can't understand that concept of going through the actions vs. really wanting to do the actions with love and emotion. 

go ahead, rip me apart. tell me i have x,y,z, to work on. in fact, i'd love it if some professional actually told me that the ENTIRE issue was my fault ... because then i could fix it. however, i don't believe it's all me... i'm working on fixing my stuff, that's why i'm here. i just don't understand why she doesn't want to fix hers. it takes two to tango right... and if we aren't dancing right, i don't think it's ever just one persons fault. both need to work, adapt, and change as the relationship changes... i just wish it wasn't so hard. it's so frustrating.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Opposites do attract sometimes. 

The thing with marrying young is that you still have to do a lot of learning and growing as you develop into the adults you will be. Developing your adult selves and learning to be married are tough to do at the same time. It's hard on you to have to teach her that touch means affection (probably because she never got much physical affection from her ("bum") father). It's hard on her to see you change in front of her eyes from the guy who (willingly and fully) did everything for her to the guy who is finally learning to express his needs too.

You also come from different cultures and backgrounds - that's more stuff you have to work out between you. 

You have wildly differing dreams and goals. Maybe her dream can be satisfied with vacation trips to every country she wants to experience. Maybe her dream will change...she's working on getting a degree. Maybe she'll start working somewhere and will love it and won't consider moving. Maybe she'll always have that dream? Maybe your dreams will change? Who knows? This is one you really have to talk about.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow, that helps a LOT. This is why I wish people wouldn't start more than one thread. If this had been all on one thread, I'd have read it from the beginning and not wasted time getting to the point.

You DO have a spoiled brat on your hands. That changes everything. If you DO go back to MC, make sure that is the first thing you discuss because any MC worth their salt will alter their advice. Gotta go, but will add more tomorrow.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Sounds as simple as her checking out.

My wife does the same and I'm convinced she's checking out of the marriage.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, Reader's Digest version...You're too nice, you need to find out in IC why you get more pleasure out of helping people than in finding your own happiness. Some type of FOO issue wherein you became the Giver and you became attracted to Takers (your wife). Because you don't have good enough self esteem, you Give to others so that they will appreciate you. That appreciation is what you use to soothe yourself and tell yourself you're worthy. IC will help you learn to love yourself.

I'm reading Getting The Love You Want, and he says that we marry someone who has what we feel we are lacking in, so that we can feel complete. You picked a selfish Taker who generally uses people and gets what she wants - what you wish you had the balls to be and do.

I really wonder whether you two belong together. First, I ALWAYS ALWAYS tell people to never marry before you're about 25. Our brains are literally still growing until then, and all our beliefs and wants and dislikes and goals and dreams aren't done formulating. Plus, you have no real world experience to enable you to find someone who fits what you really want and who ISN'T what you don't like - at 20, you're just wanting this intangible thing you don't even understand; still trying to please your parents; still have unrealistic ideals of what a marriage should be. A person you marry at 20 is fairly unlikely to be the person you would have picked at 25. 

That said, you ARE married, so what to do? IMO, keep going to MC but keep her feet to the fire there. Don't let her manipulate the MC like she has you; explain her background, explain that you became her father figure when she came here, explain that she's taking you for granted and that she's used to getting her way, and that you want a partner who isn't just there because it's convenient. Tell MC that you won't STAY in that marriage. He and she both need to hear that.

Keep doing your reading. Use the Help for Men, Mentor for Men, Men's Groups, Relationship Advice, Life Coach website. Do a 180 with her and focus on yourself. She sure as hell isn't focusing on YOU, so why should you not do the same? Let her see how it feels to be taken for granted. Let her see that you may not stick around. Let her fear for a change.

And for goodness' sake, stop being a Nice Guy! Once you become Alpha, all this crap will fall away because (1) you won't need to be passive aggressive any more to get what you want, (2) you'll attract her like crazy and she'll do whatever you want and/or (3) you'll love yourself so much that you won't put up with her crap any more.

But please do keep reading about women. You are woefully unprepared and ignorant on what women want, how they think. The more you learn about the opposite sex, the better you can deal with them. Get the Mars/Venus book for starters.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> The counselor didn't seem to hone in at all on our problems, and didn't do anything to help alay our concerns.
> 
> So after our session, we continued to talk on the drive home. In response to that I have two questions:


Sorry for skipping past responses and your questions. We've been to MC 4 times (one of the sex therapy oriented). So I think I can tell you that the first session is always just a getting to know you session, so don't expect anything as far as alaying any concerns. That's normal.

We've had good and bad counselors. We have a great one right now, and the funny thing is we don't know what the heck he's doing but we don't worry about it. He's got to be nearly 80 or something, I swear, but he has a method and I think what he seems to do is not talk about our biggest issue, but he kind of uses smaller issues to talk us into a good mood, then he applies the way that he got us into a good mood to a bigger issue...

For example, he spends a lot of time talking with us about our son and his challenges with being mild on the autism spectrum and school.. Our biggest issues are maybe that we weren't getting along sexually or work issues for me. Somehow he relates these things, such as that I have an issue with taking the initiative or my wife has a negative self image. He's such a skilled manipulator that it isn't even noticeable.

On the other hand, our previous counselor just listened to us every week for the 4 weeks we went and it was just as if there was a wildfire and she was a fireman just standing there saying "hmm, I wonder what will burn down next?"

Stick with it. If it feels this way after several sessions it might not be the right counseling for you. I'd look to see if your counselor can get you walking out feeling better than when you came in.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

WillK said:


> Sorry for skipping past responses and your questions. We've been to MC 4 times (one of the sex therapy oriented). So I think I can tell you that the first session is always just a getting to know you session, so don't expect anything as far as alaying any concerns. That's normal.
> 
> We've had good and bad counselors. We have a great one right now, and the funny thing is we don't know what the heck he's doing but we don't worry about it. He's got to be nearly 80 or something, I swear, but he has a method and I think what he seems to do is not talk about our biggest issue, but he kind of uses smaller issues to talk us into a good mood, then he applies the way that he got us into a good mood to a bigger issue...
> 
> ...


thanks for the insight... i got that wildfire thing, and as i was reflecting last night on it, we left completely empty... she provided no value in that session. if you were to say what did you pay her for... it would be that she just listened to us have the same argument over and over again... just this time, we did it in front of someone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Please don't waste your time and money arguing in front a MC. Spend that time asking MC for SPECIFIC homework to do that you will be accountable for at the next session.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Ok, Reader's Digest version...You're too nice, you need to find out in IC why you get more pleasure out of helping people than in finding your own happiness. Some type of FOO issue wherein you became the Giver and you became attracted to Takers (your wife). Because you don't have good enough self esteem, you Give to others so that they will appreciate you. That appreciation is what you use to soothe yourself and tell yourself you're worthy. IC will help you learn to love yourself.
> 
> I'm reading Getting The Love You Want, and he says that we marry someone who has what we feel we are lacking in, so that we can feel complete. You picked a selfish Taker who generally uses people and gets what she wants - what you wish you had the balls to be and do.
> 
> ...


thanks for the insight... nice to know i have someone in my corner now that i've explained things...

as i mentioned, i'm already working through the manning up, and the 180lite stuff... i honestly don't think it's going to make a difference. in our marriage i mean... i can already see benefit in myself from doing it, but anyone that goes through that process without hoping to see a change in their marriage/marital partner is not being fully honest. 

guess my question is what else can i/ should i do? 

i think deep down inside, i know the answer is that i'll never be happy with her, but for some reason, i don't want to admit that fully... maybe because of potential remorse/guilt in throwing something away.... 

any other thoughts... i've given you guys a ton of info here... what else do you have. 

thanks!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The first thing I'd do is come to grips with your real boundaries are. What can you not live without? What things MUST be in a marriage, for you to remain in it? Figure this out, independent of her - just what YOU need. Honesty, foot rubs, whatever. 

Once you have that figured out, start incorporating that in your everyday life. Say you feel that you must have SF at least once a week, barring illness. Fair enough boundary. Relay that to your wife. Not as an accusation, but as a revelation of yourself. "Wife, I've been thinking and I realize I just can't live the rest of my life in a marriage where I have to beg for SF. If my partner isn't at least nearly enough as enthusiastic as I am, enough to at least find a way to get it once a week, then I'd rather just cut my losses and move on and find someone who will. Now, how do YOU feel about SF?"

You're not telling her she has to do anything. You're telling her what YOU can live with (or not), and what the consequence would be if THIS marriage can't provide that.

Spend some time figuring out what you need.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> I come from a home where parents are still married, never fought or argued that i knew of, and dad was sole provider. she, while her parents are married, the only reason as she knows openly, was for her, otherwise, her parents wouldn't be together. her father is disabled, and pretty much a bum (not a function of his disability) and mom needed to work, and did most of the parenting it seems as well. She is EXTREMELY close with her mom. She is an only child, while i am the youngest of 5.


In my humble opinion, her relationship with her father growing up explains everything you have described. Feelings of insecurity and being let down come with her from her childhood into your marriage. This is hard for you to get because you never had these experiences. If I were you, this is where I would start


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yeah, if she won't go to IC, at least discuss this in MC.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> The first thing I'd do is come to grips with your real boundaries are. What can you not live without? What things MUST be in a marriage, for you to remain in it? Figure this out, independent of her - just what YOU need. Honesty, foot rubs, whatever.
> 
> Once you have that figured out, start incorporating that in your everyday life. Say you feel that you must have SF at least once a week, barring illness. Fair enough boundary. Relay that to your wife. Not as an accusation, but as a revelation of yourself. "Wife, I've been thinking and I realize I just can't live the rest of my life in a marriage where I have to beg for SF. If my partner isn't at least nearly enough as enthusiastic as I am, enough to at least find a way to get it once a week, then I'd rather just cut my losses and move on and find someone who will. Now, how do YOU feel about SF?"
> 
> ...


dumb question - sf...? 

she wouldn't like that sort of communication... but i do. it's open, it's straight to the point... i'm tired of americans and how we all like to beat around the bush... i'll have to try that.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> In my humble opinion, her relationship with her father growing up explains everything you have described. Feelings of insecurity and being let down come with her from her childhood into your marriage. This is hard for you to get because you never had these experiences. If I were you, this is where I would start


yes, i've always been in tune with this... i see this is where she is very independant, needing to get her needs, and not really willing to let someone else take control.. if she did, then they would end up like him. 

this is a road that she has to travel though... and i'm not sure she would ever admit how much impact it actually has on her thought process.

one thing i am not... i am not a bum. no sir, not me.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> this is a road that she has to travel though... and i'm not sure she would ever admit how much impact it actually has on her thought process.


Yes, that's called denial. When you help her understand and the two of you commit to a course of action to overcome the legacy, you will be in a position to make positive change.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> one thing i am not... i am not a bum. no sir, not me.


Yes, and you can't understand why you are being treated like one. The short answer is because that's how your wife's mother treated her husband. If you understand this then at least you can empathize with your wife which is a good start


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yes, and you can't understand why you are being treated like one. The short answer is because that's how your wife's mother treated her husband. If you understand this then at least you can empathize with your wife which is a good start


not to be a cynic, but i doubt that will ever change. she just doesn't seem like the person that wants to confront challenges and better herself. her job is a perfect example. she has a 4 year degree and double majored in management and finance. recently she's talked about getting a 2nd job to increase our income... like serving staff or something menial like that. to which my logical head says "why not get a better first job and start there"... it just seems to pass her by completely... she'd rather float through life pretending things are all hunky dorry


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> dumb question - sf...?
> 
> she wouldn't like that sort of communication... but i do. it's open, it's straight to the point... i'm tired of americans and how we all like to beat around the bush... i'll have to try that.


sf = sexual fulfillment


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> not to be a cynic, but i doubt that will ever change. she just doesn't seem like the person that wants to confront challenges and better herself.


That's not your problem, if you figure out your boundaries and actually GIVE consequences if they are crossed. Let go of trying to control or change her. That's her gig. YOUR job is to decide what you will or won't live with and anything that falls outside those boundaries (N.U.T.S.), you have to REACT. And key to being able to react is your acceptance that if she won't respect your boundaries, you don't want to be married to her. So it all rolls back around to you have to be willing to LEAVE her if she walks on you. Even if she has a valid reason for being so dysfunctional. That's what psychologists are for.

I actually gave my husband that boundary consequences last month - after 34 years together. I told him his negativity permeates everything in my life and I simply can't live with it any more - so he either agrees to go to IC (and actually goes) or I will make plans to separate.

He had his first appointment this week and has another one for next week. I've been asking him - ASKING him - to go for over 20 years, and he has completely ignored me; actually pretended I wasn't talking! So when I finally realized I couldn't live without that boundary any more - he agreed. Shocked the hell out of me, but he agreed immediately. All because I said no more.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

^ this is a great example... but at the same time... it sounds like each boundary would be a ultimatum of sorts...

how do your partners react every time you reinforce the boundary with an ultimatum. 

i think if my wife did this, after just a couple of times, i'd flip out, say whatever, and if you are so desperate and unhappy with me the way i am, then leave.... 

perhaps there is a less aggressive approach?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> not to be a cynic, but i doubt that will ever change. she just doesn't seem like the person that wants to confront challenges and better herself. her job is a perfect example. she has a 4 year degree and double majored in management and finance. recently she's talked about getting a 2nd job to increase our income... like serving staff or something menial like that. to which my logical head says "why not get a better first job and start there"... it just seems to pass her by completely... she'd rather float through life pretending things are all hunky dorry


if you don't believe your partner will change then you should just walk away now. Seriously, you a selling her short here and you can easily demonstrate her capacity to change by setting a good example through your actions and watching her follow. You could start with thinking better of her for a concentrated 30 minutes a day and in two weeks you would not believe how much better she thinks of you


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's not aggressive. You have to stop thinking like this is a war. It's not. You can't control her. You can't change her. What you CAN do is decide what you will live with. If what she does to you isn't on that list, then YOU make a choice and YOU take action. 

By calmly and logically explaining that boundary to her, you are giving her an option - go down the same path with me and respect my boundaries, or I will have to protect myself. If you don't agree with my boundary, then apparently we aren't meant to be a couple, because I can't give up my boundary. 

No different than, say, a 'I won't kill a puppy' boundary. You tell her, she agrees, and then next month she's mad at the puppy and wants you to drown it. You refuse. She rants. You move out. Because you won't kill a puppy and you can't stay with someone who will.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

i won't kill a puppy...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

ok, this just happened. i'm at work, and she texts me that 3 of her girl friends are going to San Diego this weekend, and she wanted to go. i didn't respond and she chatted me that she probably wouldn't go because it's late notice. 

i respond and tell her that it's her call. she tells me she'll stay, because it's short notice and she can hang with me. 

first off, who wants to spend an entire weekend away from their husband. and knowing what's going on between us, the ONLY reason she isn't going is because it's "short notice" not that she understands that we are in a rough patch right now and wants to continue to work on it with me... 

i keep calm, cool, collected, and respond non challantly, you know, 180 style, whatever.... but inside, my heart is just racing... wtf. we have **** going on and you want to go party with your single friends over the weekend. really. really? WTF. 

i'm probably overreacting, but this is an example of only considering her wants. eff it.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

2 hours later, and i'm still stewing about this... my head knows exactly what i need to do in this relationship, and my heart and emotions are all messed up... how do i get clarity in all of this?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

If you want clarity, I don't think acting nonchalant when you don't feel the least bit nonchalant is clear or authentic.

Why didn't you just tell her that you'd rather she spent the weekend with you? 

You're giving her mixed signals. You told her it was her call, but now are upset that she didn't take you into consideration. Or you think she didn't because she didn't say so. "Short notice" can mean that she didn't want to run out on you like that. "Short notice" is shorthand for a lot of things adding up to not doing it.

You should tell her what you think about this kind of stuff. We teach people how to treat us. It doesn't have to turn into a fight. A simple, "I was looking forward to spending the weekend with you" would have made your wishes known.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Her call?

WTH?

WHY would you say that? 

Have you learned NOTHING?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
The complex female mind. 

Took me a while to figure my W out. She wants and NEEDS financial stability which I have provided. 

But stability - like love languages - has many dimensions:
- Financial stability is good
- Total emotional stability - or if you wish: Me constantly showing her I love her: THAT makes her anxious, tense and combative. She has a strong NEED for a full spectrum emotional relationship. She needs to have the space to chase me. To be able to have conflict - and sometimes combat. 

IF - and this is rare - I want her to love me more - I do two things in concert:
- Make the effort to be more present and more fun when we are together AND
- Make sure we are together a bit less than "in theory" she wants

Together includes texts and calls and emails and physically doing things with each other. If it was always me initiating, she would feel smothered - and frankly that is the ONLY sure fired way to make her batshlt crazy. 




mattyjman said:


> appreciate the honesty... i think i do a good job... i can certainly get better. i'm not perfect, hope it doesn't come off like that. i just want her to cherish and adore me like i was, you know... sounds kinda mushy for a guy to say that, but that's what i need.
> 
> all very good insight, so i appreciate the thoughts.
> 
> edit: the other side of the coin on this though, is that i've given a lot... done a lot for her over the years. i could do more, but in some ways, i'm waiting to see how important it is to her to step up and start showing me love in a way that i can feel it. is it really that important? if not, i don't see why i should break my back to do more...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
Your post below is logical - it just isn't correct. As an example, you insist on doing something she intensely dislikes which goes a bit like this:
You: I am unhappy because you aren't "feeling" the way I want and I can tell because I know you well. At this point she has heard and understands you: The rest of the conversation what she really hears is a long, detailed, highly analyzed explanation of WHY she sucks. 

Have you thought about the fact that being Super Man husband is more about reading your W well, so you learn what she likes/dislikes and how to elicit the response you want? Because:
- She does NOT like hearing about your negative feelings and
- Does not wish to have a lengthy discussion of how and why she is failing you

Body language is so powerful and men tend to be so very bad at it. And smart men who are good with words (which is a big asset at work) tend to get MORE wordy and more analytical (smart) when they are stressed. 





mattyjman said:


> what this really gets at... is thinking that the other person thinks and feels the same way about everything. if your needs are getting met, then of course your partners needs are getting met... right? wrong. dead wrong. (unless you both have the same love language). how you show your love shouldn't be a chore in changing to a different language, because it doesn't impact how you receive love from your partner. it should be a relatively simple task of modifying your thought process of "i want to show love, and so i'll do "x" because i like "x". instead it should be "i want to show love, and he'll like "y" , so i'll do "y" because he would appreciate that."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Spot on




turnera said:


> what makes you uncomfortable, in a one on one situation? For many women, it's 'hammering.' males are typically bigger, stronger, and more aggressive. Hammering is usually more typically a male's way of getting a point across.
> 
> Women...are different. Being the weaker sex, over the millennia we've found other ways to get what we need. Talking, reading body language, more subtle insinuations...those are comfortable to us.
> 
> When someone 'hammers' on us, we defend ourselves. We rarely listen.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Humor me for a moment Matty. Imagine this for a moment: Your spouse isn't getting enough spontaneous affection/sex from you and they are angry. 
Option 1:
They hammer you. 

Option 2: 
They are friendly and upbeat when with you, they even dress a bit nicer. They also stop saying "ILY" FIRST. They stop hugging you, and calling/texting you FIRST. If you reach out they respond, but they stop initiating. And they are around less - physically - less present. 

Those are their two options. Which makes you love them more? Which makes you DESIRE them more? 

Getting angry again and again because someone doesn't love you enough (this is NOT a communication problem - she knows what you want/need) actually makes them love you LESS. 




mattyjman said:


> what's a man to think, when he does communicate the right way and nothing happens... "she didn't get it". gotta try again. hammer hammer hammer.
> 
> tough lesson to learn, this one. but i think in order to consider something "heard", something has to be "done". otherwise, if it's heard, and not done, then what are you left to assume. i'd rather assume she didn't get it, not that she just doesn't care.
> 
> so in all fairness, if you don't want "males" to hammer the point, do something about it. just my two cents on that. women are strange indeed... but i love 'em


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
Follow the logic below. It is solid in both cases. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
A dog thinks: Hey, those people I live with feed me, love me, provide me with a nice warm, dry house, pet me, and take good care of me.....They must be gods!

A cat thinks: Hey, these people I live with feed me, love me, provide me with a nice warm, dry house, pet me, and take good care of me...I must be a god.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My W - who I love (in the way she wants to be loved) has quite a bit of cat in her. If I act like a dog - all hell breaks out. 

You Matty - act like a dog - so eager to please and so very obvious about it. And you expect her to respond in kind. At core - if she is a cat - she simply perceives you in an emotionally negative manner. 





mattyjman said:


> i can't stand cats... hate them really. but i get the analogy. in fact, i can see how my wifes cat hates me, and how long it does take for her to come back around...
> 
> the awful realization is that i feel like i've been doing all the giving, and her doing all the taking. my issue in this relationship is that i don't feel that she gives back. i pulled away, and have now come to the realization that things probably won't change, and that i need to move on... in fact, i'm okay with the prospect of moving on. however, i would very much rather work things out.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1. You can't hammer her into loving you more - I know you get that.
2. You MUST enforce behavioral boundaries. If she flirts with another man, you simply say "THAT behavior is unacceptable, when you are ready to apologize, and commit to not doing it again let me know"

And then shut up - don't debate the point. And in fact go into a true 180 (only communicate about kids and schedules) until she accepts the boundary or you end the marriage. 

And yes - that must be an absolute boundary. She CANNOT love you if she doesn't respect you. And flirting with other men is the ULTIMATE in your face sign of disrespect. 




mattyjman said:


> okay, I've posted this in a few other threads, but to bring it all together...
> 
> I grew up Mormon (religious beliefs have something to do with this i think), but am no longer religious much at all, definitely not Mormon. She is from Bulgaria, and was also raised Mormon. We met at college when we were young, dated for a year, and go married thereafter, when she was 19 and I was 22. I come from a home where parents are still married, never fought or argued that i knew of, and dad was sole provider. she, while her parents are married, the only reason as she knows openly, was for her, otherwise, her parents wouldn't be together. her father is disabled, and pretty much a bum (not a function of his disability) and mom needed to work, and did most of the parenting it seems as well. She is EXTREMELY close with her mom. She is an only child, while i am the youngest of 5.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
You are either benefiting from or contributing to my insomnia. Openly flirting with other men is a VERY cat like thing to do. The physical analog is when you see a cat move into a stalking posture. You can't mistake it, but it is very quiet. 

They are now in ready to kill mode. When THAT happens you put your boundaries in place immediately, because the alternative is that the cat kills you and then moves on. 

You don't assert your boundaries lightly. That one is quick and absolute. A slower moving response is: I won't stay with a partner who takes me for granted. And that is something you enforce gradually. 




mattyjman said:


> ^ this is a great example... but at the same time... it sounds like each boundary would be a ultimatum of sorts...
> 
> how do your partners react every time you reinforce the boundary with an ultimatum.
> 
> ...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Her call?
> 
> WTH?
> 
> ...


first thought... i'm becoming jaded

second thought ... i guess not. i thought a 180 included being something to the effect of not wanting/needing love and affection. 

one thing for sure, i'm much ****tier at relationships than i thought.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> one thing for sure, i'm much ****tier at relationships than i thought.


That's kinda what I was getting at when I said you both married young, and it's tough to learn to be an adult person and a married person at the same time. 

Marriage and relationship skills aren't necessarily intuitive, and require learning how to interact and communicate with each other in a productive and positive way so that you become a team rather than adversaries. There is you, her, and "the marriage" or "us". Ultimately, both of you have to support the "us", almost as a third entity whose needs might differ somewhat from purely your needs and her needs. 

Neither of you are good at it (yet), but both of you are still learning and can learn how to be good at it. Don't despair.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> That's kinda what I was getting at when I said you both married young, and it's tough to learn to be an adult person and a married person at the same time.
> 
> Marriage and relationship skills aren't necessarily intuitive, and require learning how to interact and communicate with each other in a productive and positive way so that you become a team rather than adversaries. There is you, her, and "the marriage" or "us". Ultimately, both of you have to support the "us", almost as a third entity whose needs might differ somewhat from purely your needs and her needs.
> 
> Neither of you are good at it (yet), but both of you are still learning and can learn how to be good at it. Don't despair.


i appreciate that, but i'm honestly just left here wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze, if i'm really wanting to make things work with her, make the marriage work. 

it dawned on me this morning, that possibly i'm not feeling her love and affection, because i'm not in love with her anymore. in love with the idea of marriage, and the marriage i want, but not her anymore. 

i have no idea anymore... i'm so confused it's downright insane.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The more you are hurt, beat down, ignored, criticized...the less you love someone. It's human nature.

The Love Bucket:
There's this bucket when you get married and it's pretty full of all the loving things she did for you when you were dating (and not having to deal with bills together, kids, taxes, work, etc. - all your time was fun time; easy to fill that Love Bucket).

As you go down the marriage road and have to learn how to get along in the same house, how to let BOTH of you get what you want and still take care of each other, the Love Busters start. Say she shaves in the shower and leaves the remains there without cleaning it up (eww!). Single, she never cared. Married, she needs to remember you're there now and may not enjoy her shavings. 

Each Love Buster that she does to you pokes a hole in your Love Bucket. A little of that love you feel for her, stored up, starts to leak out the hole. Another LB, another hole. She may still be loving on you, which replenishes the love in the bucket, but at some point she may start poking more LB holes in the bucket faster than she can replace the love now pouring out of the big gaping holes. There's a tipping point at which no matter what she does, it won't be enough to make up for all the LB NOT-love you feel. Unless she changes and stops LBing you (going out with the girls, etc.)

Same goes for you, of course. But it sounds like right now, you have little bucket left.

You are going to HAVE to address her LBs or you won't stay married. Telling her 'your choice' was a passive aggressive SET-UP so that you get to stay the victim and pull out the 'look what you're doing to me' card. VERY unattractive. I know, I played it for years.

What's needed here is for you to realize you CAN leave her and WILL, unless she becomes the wife you need. Once you reach that, you will then feel safe to say 'Excuse me? After all that's happened, you're wanting to go out AGAIN? I'll tell you what - you go ahead and go out; I'll be here packing your suitcases.'

In a nice, non-LB way, of course.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
I agree with th



QUOTE=turnera;866883]The more you are hurt, beat down, ignored, criticized...the less you love someone. It's human nature.

The Love Bucket:
There's this bucket when you get married and it's pretty full of all the loving things she did for you when you were dating (and not having to deal with bills together, kids, taxes, work, etc. - all your time was fun time; easy to fill that Love Bucket).

As you go down the marriage road and have to learn how to get along in the same house, how to let BOTH of you get what you want and still take care of each other, the Love Busters start. Say she shaves in the shower and leaves the remains there without cleaning it up (eww!). Single, she never cared. Married, she needs to remember you're there now and may not enjoy her shavings. 

Each Love Buster that she does to you pokes a hole in your Love Bucket. A little of that love you feel for her, stored up, starts to leak out the hole. Another LB, another hole. She may still be loving on you, which replenishes the love in the bucket, but at some point she may start poking more LB holes in the bucket faster than she can replace the love now pouring out of the big gaping holes. There's a tipping point at which no matter what she does, it won't be enough to make up for all the LB NOT-love you feel. Unless she changes and stops LBing you (going out with the girls, etc.)

Same goes for you, of course. But it sounds like right now, you have little bucket left.

You are going to HAVE to address her LBs or you won't stay married. Telling her 'your choice' was a passive aggressive SET-UP so that you get to stay the victim and pull out the 'look what you're doing to me' card. VERY unattractive. I know, I played it for years.

What's needed here is for you to realize you CAN leave her and WILL, unless she becomes the wife you need. Once you reach that, you will then feel safe to say 'Excuse me? After all that's happened, you're wanting to go out AGAIN? I'll tell you what - you go ahead and go out; I'll be here packing your suitcases.'

In a nice, non-LB way, of course. [/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

IndiaInk said:


> Really?
> 
> The more I read the more I think that one day the OP is going to wake up and realizing that he's beating a dead horse here...
> 
> ...


I partially agree with you. However, feeling attracted is still a function of the brain. When our brains get cluttered with things that interfere with being receptive to another person, both men and women can have a tough time feeling sexy or affectionate. On the other side of that same coin, we can feel attraction or develop attraction for someone because of how they treat us.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Matty, I've been away quite a bit this week and just now am sitting back down at my computer. I saw where you asked me to qualify my statement that I see hypocrisy and double standards in your posts (a reply to my post on page 3 of this thread.)

I'll quote statements you've made in this thread, and then insert my thoughts that lead me to believe there are double-standards and hypocrisy by using italics:

YOU: my point was that i typically give her direction, and she does it that day when it's fresh in the head. next day and thereafter, unless i remind her, it doesn't get done. i shouldn't have to remind her every day to show me love and affection.

_This sounds very controlling on your part, and very resistant on her part. This would work against her feeling valued and appreciated. It also indicates that you may feel like your beliefs and priorities are automatically superior to whatever hers might be._

YOU: for me, affection is an "untangible" for me... i can't describe it, and i certainly have no idea how to build it... it's just there. so, for me, i haven't a clue how to help her out on this. i could show her the actions, and she could do them, but there again, it's just the actions. it's not done with the "feeling". does any of that make sense? am i just crazy and should i be happy with the actions even if i can' sense an emotional feeling in conjunction with the action?

_ You're upset that you can't measure something you're not even able to define. This means that no matter what she does, neither of you will be able to say it's satisfactory. In a later post, you described making plans to celebrate your marriage. When she changed her plans to do what you wanted, you still weren't satisfied. This is what her life feels like to her - nothing she does will measure up, and the rules change as she goes along. If she spit shined your shoes every morning, you'd still be able to say there's no affection there. She cannot succeed because you're creating an environment that ONLY allows for failure.

Meanwhile, what SHE thinks is showing affection and love gets completely rejected by you. She does things for you, and you tell her "it doesn't matter." In fact, even when she lets you "tell her" what to do and follows your direction, she's rewarded with criticism. For instance, she didn't make an appointment on YOUR timeline, so you hammered at her until she did it the way you wanted. When it got done, instead of celebrating that she came to your side, you b*tch about it. When she set aside her plans for the weekend to participate in something YOU set up without her influence - and maybe without even asking what she thought was the best way to celebrate your marriage - you don't give her credit for it. Instead, you focus on poor you, who had to face the possibility of going alone._

YOU: i've given a lot... done a lot for her over the years. i could do more, but in some ways, i'm waiting to see how important it is to her to step up and start showing me love in a way that i can feel it.

i just feel like sometimes she doesn't really listen, and i have to "hammer" in the point... it's probably a fault of mine.

_Your decision on what is "doing enough" clearly implies that what SHE thinks is enough doesn't count. You've again discredited her efforts and beliefs because you're so focused on your own. Yet this is exactly what you're upset about - that she puts herself first instead of treasuring the things you've done for her. _

YOU: what this really gets at... is thinking that the other person thinks and feels the same way about everything. if your needs are getting met, then of course your partners needs are getting met... right? wrong. dead wrong. (unless you both have the same love language). how you show your love shouldn't be a chore in changing to a different language, because it doesn't impact how you receive love from your partner. it should be a relatively simple task of modifying your thought process of "i want to show love, and so i'll do "x" because i like "x". instead it should be "i want to show love, and he'll like "y" , so i'll do "y" because he would appreciate that."

_ You're not doing this, but you expect it from her. You say only that you "should" recognize that she is "trying." What a crappy attitude! You *should *feel blessed that a woman in this world cares enough about you to let you influence the way she goes through her days, who loves you enough that she wants to keep a clean home for you, and who loves you enough that she's willing to see a counselor with you. Instead, you're on here criticizing her ways and sticking to your own. What gives you the right to say she *should* feel blessed for all that you've done for her, when your methods meet her needs as much as a clean kitchen does yours?

That sounds harsher than I mean it to, but I don't know how else to make the point. You are BOTH doing the best you have with the tools you've got. If you want to be treated like her Superhero, you've GOT to learn how to adopt her values and priorities as much as you want her to adopt yours. If my husband gave me so little credit as you give your wife, I would not consider marriage counseling because I'd be busy packing._


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> If you want to be treated like her Superhero, you've GOT to learn how to adopt her values and priorities as much as you want her to adopt yours. If my husband gave me so little credit as you give your wife, I would not consider marriage counseling because I'd be busy packing.[/I]



thanks for the input and reply, there is a lot of stuff in there that i'll need to go over again, just to let it sink in... but...
good god, you make me out to be the worst facking person on earth...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

i am so utterly confused right now, it's downright impossible to think. 

is it just me, or is there a ton of conflicting information/opinion in this thread?? 

here is where i think i'm stuck... i've been the nice guy. might as well have it stamped on my stupid forehead. so i start attempting a 180, to man up a bit. 

everything you guys are telling me seems counter to what the whole basis of manning up is... unless i just don't seem to get it.

i really appreciate all the input, and if you guys continue to bare with me... i really want to fix whatever it is that's going on. 

let's start from the beginning... this whole issue between my wife and i started because i felt like she was deprioritizing me and my needs. solution to do that is "man up", no? me to take care of me... right? 

this is like a stupid jigsaw puzzle... never were very good at those. so i'm having a hard time trying to figure out how all the pieces fit in.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> thanks for the input and reply, there is a lot of stuff in there that i'll need to go over again, just to let it sink in... but...
> good god, you make me out to be the worst facking person on earth...


 actually, Kathy, I was telling him the same stuff as you...until I read the long history he finally gave. And I turned my advice around 180. Did you read the whole thread?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
What is it that is conflicting? 




mattyjman said:


> i am so utterly confused right now, it's downright impossible to think.
> 
> is it just me, or is there a ton of conflicting information/opinion in this thread??
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FF,
I think your input is very balanced. 






FrenchFry said:


> Hi matty!
> 
> So I've been silently following this thread since the start because some of the things you have said/some of the actions you say you do sound an awful lot like my husband and I've been trying to gain insight on how he thinks. I also have followed this thread because since the way you talk about your wife has extremely similar undertones to the way my husband talks to me, I on some level empathize as to the way your wife acts, especially the poor reactions you don't understand.
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

FrenchFry said:


> This was an internal process though, and there are setbacks all the time (like when my husband cleans up after I just cleaned)


Reminds me of all the years when I would mow the grass, and my husband would come behind me and mow AGAIN...to get it right.

Took me a couple years, but I finally realized to stop mowing the yard. If what I do isn't good enough for him, why am I doing it?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

matty, I think here's a good, quick synopsis of all the advice: Start figuring out what your wife is thinking, so you can understand how she thinks and feels; if you don't know what's going on in her head, how can you make her happy? At the same time, continue to work on yourself so that you become a happy, HEALTHY person - one who is not a Nice Guy but who is also not a jerk. KNOW yourself, know what you need in life to be happy, productive, and loving (i.e., not resentful). Know that at all time, what you need (within reason) and look at what happens to you and compare it to what you're getting. If you find yourself compromising, walking on eggshells, or swallowing your words, just to keep your wife from getting upset, then SHE is the one who needs to do some work and you need to protect your boundaries. And you need to start speaking up.

Does that make more sense?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Hi matty!
> 
> So I've been silently following this thread since the start because some of the things you have said/some of the actions you say you do sound an awful lot like my husband and I've been trying to gain insight on how he thinks. I also have followed this thread because since the way you talk about your wife has extremely similar undertones to the way my husband talks to me, I on some level empathize as to the way your wife acts, especially the poor reactions you don't understand.
> 
> ...





turnera said:


> matty, I think here's a good, quick synopsis of all the advice: Start figuring out what your wife is thinking, so you can understand how she thinks and feels; if you don't know what's going on in her head, how can you make her happy? At the same time, continue to work on yourself so that you become a happy, HEALTHY person - one who is not a Nice Guy but who is also not a jerk. KNOW yourself, know what you need in life to be happy, productive, and loving (i.e., not resentful). Know that at all time, what you need (within reason) and look at what happens to you and compare it to what you're getting. If you find yourself compromising, walking on eggshells, or swallowing your words, just to keep your wife from getting upset, then SHE is the one who needs to do some work and you need to protect your boundaries. And you need to start speaking up.
> 
> Does that make more sense?


both very good summaries of what was said here... and since FF's response, it started to click in my head. i just wasn't understanding all the pieces and how they'd all fit in... especially after Kathy's post... hers seemed to be counter to everything else, but i see how it all fits in now. 

the last few weeks have been a complete rollercoaster .. its nice to finally understand what's happening, what i'm doing to cause it, what she's doing to exacerbate it, and what i need to do to fix it. however, i wonder if its all coming just a little bit too late.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, if it's too late to make it work with her, you'll make a hell of a partner for your next female.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
If you read his posts again you will see something very consistent: he is trying too hard to make her happy, at the expense of enforcing his boundaries. He love busts over things that are NOT his responsibility, and yet is afraid to make her angry when she violates boundaries.

The bad place they are in is very bad. In that situation you focus mostly on two things:
- stop love busting her (example: stop telling her she is wasting her abilities in a menial job)
- stop complaining about her lack of feeling, and instead make low key positive statements about what she does
- stop talking about the R - she hates that
- let her initiate time together, saying ily, etc, give her room to breathe - stop texting except in response

Boundary enforcement in key areas:
- don't tolerate disrespect (a quick calm and firm, " don't do that") without any nonsense about "you always, you never"
- as for weekends apart - he can pick a timescale during which that isn't ok - and can add that any flirting will just extend that 
- pick specific areas where he always gives in - come up with a compromise - and when it comes up - offer the compromise as the best he can do and then don't budge

The reason he can't focus on making her happy - is that enforcing his boundaries is going to make her unhappy for the next 6-12 months.
- 



turnera said:


> matty, I think here's a good, quick synopsis of all the advice: Start figuring out what your wife is thinking, so you can understand how she thinks and feels; if you don't know what's going on in her head, how can you make her happy? At the same time, continue to work on yourself so that you become a happy, HEALTHY person - one who is not a Nice Guy but who is also not a jerk. KNOW yourself, know what you need in life to be happy, productive, and loving (i.e., not resentful). Know that at all time, what you need (within reason) and look at what happens to you and compare it to what you're getting. If you find yourself compromising, walking on eggshells, or swallowing your words, just to keep your wife from getting upset, then SHE is the one who needs to do some work and you need to protect your boundaries. And you need to start speaking up.
> 
> Does that make more sense?


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Well, if it's too late to make it work with her, you'll make a hell of a partner for your next female.


i appreciate the vote of confidence


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> that enforcing his boundaries is going to make her unhappy for the next 6-12 months.
> -
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


therein lies the problem...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You can either do this before kids or after kids. If it fails, and she walks, far better before kids.


UOTE=mattyjman;872666]therein lies the problem...[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

yeah, i get that. kids are off the table right now, both of us agree with that. 

i've been so much one way with her, that any pull back in any degree would be a huge change for her. now that's not weighing heavy on my mind... that's her deal. but i guess what i'm saying is, i simply have to decide if it's worth it to give this up, because there is a huge chance that we wouldn't make it through that. the answer, at this point, is yes. i'm prepared to do that. but i also assume the outcome, and at that point, is it really worth all the unhappiness that will come while waiting around for 6 months to a year?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> Hi matty!
> 
> So I've been silently following this thread since the start because some of the things you have said/some of the actions you say you do sound an awful lot like my husband and I've been trying to gain insight on how he thinks. I also have followed this thread because since the way you talk about your wife has extremely similar undertones to the way my husband talks to me, I on some level empathize as to the way your wife acts, especially the poor reactions you don't understand.
> 
> ...


never really said thank you specifically. if your husband is anything like me then you have a great guy there... be patient


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> If you read his posts again you will see something very consistent: he is trying too hard to make her happy, at the expense of enforcing his boundaries. He love busts over things that are NOT his responsibility, and yet is afraid to make her angry when she violates boundaries.
> 
> The bad place they are in is very bad. In that situation you focus mostly on two things:
> ...


mem, i appreciate your insight on this thread. it was your thermastat post that actually brought me here in the first place... thanks for taking the time to participate.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> yeah, i get that. kids are off the table right now, both of us agree with that.
> 
> i've been so much one way with her, that any pull back in any degree would be a huge change for her. now that's not weighing heavy on my mind... that's her deal. but i guess what i'm saying is, i simply have to decide if it's worth it to give this up, because there is a huge chance that we wouldn't make it through that. the answer, at this point, is yes. i'm prepared to do that. but i also assume the outcome, and at that point, is it really worth all the unhappiness that will come while waiting around for 6 months to a year?


Worth it give WHAT up?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

^ the relationship.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

It's worth it to your own peace of mind. IF this relationship doesn't make it.... You have to know, in your heart, that you did everything you could. You didn't just chicken out and walk away. THAT is worth ALOT.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Matty, I don't think you're the "worst person in the world" or even remotely close to that. Just wanted to clarify that. FrenchFry hit the nail on the head better than I did, so I won't try to clarify my entire post because she got the ideas across very well. 

I do tend to focus on the person who's talking here because I believe telling people "how to make others change" is worthless advice. That sort of put you on the hot seat and made it seem like I didn't "get" what has you frustrated. For not making it clearer that I do understand, I apologize.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I get the sense - and correct me if I'm reading this incorrectly - that you think if you man up and make changes in the marriage, you're going to go through about 6 months of her fighting back, to get you to turn back into Beta Man, and you're wondering if you want to go through that crap. That maybe you should just walk away. Is that what you're saying?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
I think I understand your point to be: this will be a miserable 6 to 12 months, and at the end she is likely to leave anyway. 

That might be true. But not if you do this properly. If you
1. write down your boundaries
2. Accept that she is likely to leave over them because she is used to steamrolling you to get what she wants
3. Don't threaten to leave her, just let her know that if she wants the marriage to survive she needs to respect your boundaries 
4. And get ready for your first full blown precipice dance - where she threatens the end, and keeps poking at you and you go completely dark and wait for her to fold or leave
5. If you can control yourself and stay dark until she folds or leaves you - you can accelerate the process to more like 3 months


UOTE=mattyjman;872720]yeah, i get that. kids are off the table right now, both of us agree with that. 

i've been so much one way with her, that any pull back in any degree would be a huge change for her. now that's not weighing heavy on my mind... that's her deal. but i guess what i'm saying is, i simply have to decide if it's worth it to give this up, because there is a huge chance that we wouldn't make it through that. the answer, at this point, is yes. i'm prepared to do that. but i also assume the outcome, and at that point, is it really worth all the unhappiness that will come while waiting around for 6 months to a year?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Matty,
> I think I understand your point to be: this will be a miserable 6 to 12 months, and at the end she is likely to leave anyway.


If this is what you're saying, then I'll say: do it anyway and consider this 12 months as your practice run to perfect yourself. You'll either be doing it for her and your bonus will be a great marriage with her, or you'll be doing it for yourself and you'll make a great mate for the next woman. Either way, you need to do the work on yourself, and you need to learn what makes a great marriage. So why not?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

T,
Agreed. This is how Matty will learn that her respect for him will rise if he controls his emotions. He will know that has happened when he is able to have conflict with her, and then be polite,'friendly and reserved until she apologizes and/or commits to some change. To do that he needs to stop smothering her and being needy. 


QUOTE=turnera;873719]If this is what you're saying, then I'll say: do it anyway and consider this 12 months as your practice run to perfect yourself. You'll either be doing it for her and your bonus will be a great marriage with her, or you'll be doing it for yourself and you'll make a great mate for the next woman. Either way, you need to do the work on yourself, and you need to learn what makes a great marriage. So why not?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> T,
> Agreed. This is how Matty will learn that her respect for him will rise if he controls his emotions. He will know that has happened when he is able to have conflict with her, and then be polite,'friendly and reserved until she apologizes and/or commits to some change. To do that he needs to stop smothering her and being needy.
> 
> 
> QUOTE=turnera;873719]If this is what you're saying, then I'll say: do it anyway and consider this 12 months as your practice run to perfect yourself. You'll either be doing it for her and your bonus will be a great marriage with her, or you'll be doing it for yourself and you'll make a great mate for the next woman. Either way, you need to do the work on yourself, and you need to learn what makes a great marriage. So why not?


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]

this has already started a few weeks ago... she has responded in kind with being more reserved and drawn away. 

the unfortunate thing is that she can now go and get her "emotional fill" from her parents, that are now living with us, without having to confront the real issue. i'm actually very worried about the impact that will have on this whole deal... i should never have let her bring them here. THAT was a boundary i didn't enforce


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

KathyBatesel said:


> Matty, I don't think you're the "worst person in the world" or even remotely close to that. Just wanted to clarify that. FrenchFry hit the nail on the head better than I did, so I won't try to clarify my entire post because she got the ideas across very well.
> 
> I do tend to focus on the person who's talking here because I believe telling people "how to make others change" is worthless advice. That sort of put you on the hot seat and made it seem like I didn't "get" what has you frustrated. For not making it clearer that I do understand, I apologize.


kathy, you are totally right. i did think that you were all for my wife and really didn't understand my point of view. even still, there is lots of gold in there, but it just seemed counter since it was displayed in the "here's all the bad stuff you are doing" but i appreciate that. it's good to have opposing viewpoints, so i can really attack my issues, and build a better me. thank you for that.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Matty,
You are completely right about the situation with the parents. Can they stay in the US if you two divorce? Can she afford to support them? 

Do you think they know the two of you have an issue?




mattyjman said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


this has already started a few weeks ago... she has responded in kind with being more reserved and drawn away. 

the unfortunate thing is that she can now go and get her "emotional fill" from her parents, that are now living with us, without having to confront the real issue. i'm actually very worried about the impact that will have on this whole deal... i should never have let her bring them here. THAT was a boundary i didn't enforce [/QUOTE]


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think you should tell her parents what's going on.

After all, what happens will directly affect them.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Matty,
> You are completely right about the situation with the parents. Can they stay in the US if you two divorce? Can she afford to support them?
> 
> Do you think they know the two of you have an issue?
> ...


[/QUOTE]
no they can't support themselves. her dad is on a tourist visa, mom on a permanent residency status. she'll have a hard time supporting just herself... she's always depended on me for everything. (nice guy, right  ) her mom knows we have had issues, i have no idea if she knows how serious it is this time.




turnera said:


> I think you should tell her parents what's going on.
> 
> After all, what happens will directly affect them.



oohhh man... now that is a whole 'nother story. are you ready for this one... (i can't believe i didn't stay my ground on this one...)

ok, a little back story... she's from bulgaria, which until 30 years ago, was under the soviet union (read: parents = communist upbringing). She is an only child, and her parents had her when they were older. Now, her mom is 68 and dad is 72, wife is now 25. Dad is disabled, diabetic, and isn't really mobile, so he can't work. Mom, still healthy, can work, but is getting older right...

but... here's the kicker. neither of them speak english... at all. it's broken at best. 

she brought them here, because they were getting older, and she feels a responsibility to take care of them, so wanted to bring them here to help them have better opportunities. she thinks she'll be able to find her mom a job out here, while AZ unemployment is around 10%. Count in her age, language barrier, etc... not gonna happen. I told her that, and she still persisted, and i finally gave in. 

the option was, either we go there and take care of them when they get sick, or they come here and we take care of them when they get sick. either way, she said, in no uncertain terms (not a heated debated or anything.), that if it came between choosing me or her parents, she would choose them. 

so with that, my choice was either to move to bulgaria, or have them here. and here we are. they have been living with us for a month now, and it almost feels as if i'm a stranger in my own house. so, can i talk with them about what's going on? ... nope. not without my wife translating for me. 

sad thing is though, i think her mom would support my wife and encourage her to be independent. it's just how she was raised. 

anyway, it didn't dawn on me until earlier this week that this could be causing some issue with her wanting to connect with me when i'm doing the 180... 

i can totally see it now. i pulling away now, distancing myself some, but she isn't coming at all for any reinforcement, loving affection, etc.... in fact, she's pulling away hard too, drawing more distance between us. of course, she always does that anyway... any time i'm upset about something, she finds some way to get mad at me ... it's her defense mechanism. it's something as assanine as her saying, "well, i don't like him being mad at me, so now i'm mad at him" - instead of actually trying to understand what went wrong and addressing it.

i think at this point, i'm just over it now. she's made minimal effort, and while i can appreciate what she's done, i feel like it's too little too late. its taken so long (over 2 years) to get to this point. i'm tired. exhausted. i'm emotionally beat up and confused. i think i'm going to tell her to move out. sometimes i wonder if she takes any of this seriously, of if it's just another one of those times where i'm upset and will get over it. why do relationships have to be so ****ty... i'm reading books, online looking up how to be better, and i'm learning and applying a lot. it doesn't seem like she's putting any extra effort into making this survive, and if i don't see that... why keep trying? i'm done.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> she said, in no uncertain terms (not a heated debated or anything.), that if it came between choosing me or her parents, she would choose them.


So let her. Sit her down and let her figure out how she's going to afford taking care of them on her own. This is a perfect place for you to insert a boundary:

"Wife, I am NOT your pocketbook. I love your parents, but I didn't marry you just so I could pay for your lifestyle and so you could be a good daughter. If you want to be a good daughter and treat me like Daddy Warbucks, well, that's gonna stop. I deserve to be married to a woman who wants ME, not my checkbook. So you have a decision to make. Either make me your priority and figure out HOW to care about me, or I will be moving on to find someone who will."


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

been there, done that. not exactly worded like that, but absolutely this has been communicated.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So you've been to the lawyer, then? She knows this?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

not to a lawyer yet, but she's well aware of where i "say" we are... i just wonder if she is taking this seriously.. well, i know she isn't. either way, i don't think it matters. 

should i contact a lawyer if this is just a separation at first... not a full blown divorce?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> should i contact a lawyer if this is just a separation at first... not a full blown divorce?


Absolutely! Know your rights and responsibilities, and what you need to do to prepare for a divorce. Absolutely.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

i just hate that it's come to this... i would love to avoid this if at all possible... 

at times i'm completely dead, emotionally. just nothing's there. 

other times, i'm hurt. after how good i've been, someone is just willing to throw that all away. sure, i've made a lot of mistakes, but that's not excuse to not want to work through our challenges... 

it's so weird... at work, i'm 100% set on what i need to do. when i get home, and she's around, it's all messed up in my head. 

until last night... i resolved myself to do what was necessary for me to move on ... i still feel bad, but i don't want to feel this way anymore. i need someone that can appreciate me for who i am... why is this so hard...

sorry for my ranting... i'm all effed up right now


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Sorry, Mattyjam. Yes, for a separation you should definitely seek an attorney. This can have a big impact on what happens if you proceed to divorce later. 

When relationships break up, it's normal to go through a grieving process that very similar to when a loved one dies. That numbness, anger, sadness, that all go back and forth over and over again can crop up and overwhelm us again and again, but as time passes, we keep moving closer to acceptance. I guess I'm trying to say "Hang in there. It does get better eventually."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Realize that, once she figures out you're serious, she will PANIC. About FINANCES. (not about you, unfortunately) She will start scrambling to make her case to ensure that you keep paying for her. She may turn into a person you don't even recognize, when it comes to money.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mattyjman said:


> it's so weird... at work, i'm 100% set on what i need to do. when i get home, and she's around, it's all messed up in my head.


That's because you KNOW your value at work and you are proud of yourself there. At home, you have tied your worth into whether or not she chooses you. It's that simple. Remove her ability to determine your worth. You weren't born attached at the hip. You won't die that way even if you stay together. You are all you have. A wife is just icing on the cake.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

turnera said:


> Realize that, once she figures out you're serious, she will PANIC. About FINANCES. (not about you, unfortunately) She will start scrambling to make her case to ensure that you keep paying for her. She may turn into a person you don't even recognize, when it comes to money.


i see that's possible.. it's not like she's not well off on her own... she could make it without me, but it would be tough, and a significant lifestyle adjustment, especially with her parents under her care... 

she makes almost 50k... so it's not like she has a case for spousal support or anything... we don't have kids, we are under on our house, and we have two cars... both of which i could keep and pay for if needed, so she can get a cheaper mode of transportation. we both have student loans, and the only credit cards we have are in my name, and nearly paid off... she can't really make a case, can she?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

we do share finances by the way... but we don't have much in the way of savings, but i understand that we would probably split that.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

She can withdraw everything in your joint accounts before you finish reading this post.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

understood... she isn't aware of this discussion though... so, shhhh !


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> understood... she isn't aware of this discussion though... so, shhhh !


You have no idea what she is or isn't aware of... seriously, you wouldn't know it if she had a keystroke logger on your computer. It's unlikely, but it is possible. It's also possible that people will tell her to get all the money she can while it's still accessible.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

i'd be surprised if she even knew what a keystroke logger is... 

but if she did know this was coming, i have no doubt that her wonderful influential friends would be cajoling her to take me through the wash... 

thanks for the advice... it's unfortunate that it's not going to work out..


for what it's worth, i've read his needs, her needs last week, and started with Men are from mars, women from venus yesterday ... and wow... what an eye opener. i come home from a long day and want to relax and she hates that, can't understand. if she was willing to do some reading, she might understand that... but on the flip side, i suck at what you women call "listening". either way, good to know moving forward.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Yep. You'll make a great partner...for someone.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

^ i hope so. 

i'm surprised no one is trying to talk me out of this...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Leaving after cheating is a personal decision. I told my DH when we married 30 years ago that if I ever caught him cheating, he'd never see me again. I'd just disappear. He told me recently that that was the main reason he never even considered cheating. But who knows what I'd really do?

The only thing I advise against is divorcing IMMEDIATELY. I know enough psychology and have seen enough stories like yours to know that your feelings will flop all over the place for the first 6 months or so. I've seen people go two years apart, and then realize they should try again. When you feel like (in a calm mind) you know what you want, who are we to say no?


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

CALM being the key word...


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

we share finances, and both of our names are on everything... both cars, the house, the bank account ,etc... 

with her moving out, how do you go about splitting all that stuff up and removing names, etc... 

what's the best way to have a clean separation?


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mattyjman said:


> we share finances, and both of our names are on everything... both cars, the house, the bank account ,etc...
> 
> with her moving out, how do you go about splitting all that stuff up and removing names, etc...
> 
> what's the best way to have a clean separation?


Consult an attorney!


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

okay okay... it's in the works. i was just wondering about any outside advice from someone that's been there


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I've heard that you can have each of you write down a list, in order, of what's most important to you (to keep) - picture, pet, pots & pans, piano, etc. Then sit down and compare the list, starting with what's most important, and agree, or agree to discuss later. Work your way down the list.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I personally think it's a great idea to have a tentative agreement before seeing an attorney, because attorneys have a great reason to make you want to fight for everything you can get. They make a lot more money and build their reputations that way. 

My ex and I planned our own divorce, and paid the attorney to make sure it happened the way we wanted it to.

Things with joint ownership either go to one or the other, or they get sold and the money gets divided.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

community property state... yuck. my wife and i talked yesterday, and came up with a distribution list of who get's what... 

i started making some calls to get her name removed from a few things and learned that we can't until an official divorce. i have a free consult with an attorney on wednesday... any things I should be prepared with in this meeting? things to talk about, questions to ask? 

i opened another thread in the divorce and separation section about the differences (comparatively from a value perspective - i obviously understand the obvious) between a separation and divorce. Not sure which route to go...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/50800-divorce-vs-separation.html


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

... and NOW... NOW... she starts to show signs of love and affection... like she's going to lose the most near and dear thing to her. she can't sleep, keeps crying, etc... 

after we talked and came to a decision i've been kinda cold and removed... 

could she be not wanting to leave ME, or our awesome life?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Only time will tell.


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## mattyjman (Jun 6, 2012)

talk about messing with my brain... i don't hate her or anything, i just can't keep doing this. 

but if she now sees that im serious, and is willing to work with me on improving us together, then maybe we have a fighting chance... i'd hate to throw it away if she's willing to make some effort

i got to this point because it didn't seem like it was all that important to her in the first place.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ok, then, if that is your mindset, then you need to have a solid plan to fall back on.

Sit down and write out what you would need in AN IDEAL WIFE.

Be serious here - ANY wife, what would you have to get from her.

Also make a list of what kind of actions you would need from her SPECIFICALLY, to make up for what happened. Set this bar VERY VERY HIGH. So high that she would have to really want you to be willing to take those leaps.

Write it all down. Print it out. Tape it your mirror so you see it every day. Then, when/if she makes any overtures, you know immediately what you would have to see from her to even THINK of ever seeing her again.


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