# Alpha + Beta = B.S.



## MisguidedMiscreant

I want to talk about the concept of "Alpha Males" and "Beta Males." Before I get into what I have to say, I want to make it clear that I've never used these phrases as I believe that one of the issues with society is that we, all of us, are so quick to put a name to something. I don't believe in this, I don't believe that there are any specific types of people, there are just people. So, just for the purpose of this post and the subject at hand, I ask that you forgive me for using those terms. 

Through personal research, I've read on this forum and elsewhere on the internet about the types of males, Alpha, Beta, and, in some cases Omega. I've read where people say that women don't like you because you're a Beta, you need to be more of an Alpha with an edge and whatever. What I've learned is that there are no such thing if you're a man that follows this way of "thinking." One thing I've noticed between the two types is that they have more things in common than not. 

They say that Alphas are the men that are take charge, funny, and have, once again, an edge. In the black community, they're called "thugs," in the white, they're called "bad boys." I'll say it again, alphas are commonly known as thugs and/or bad boys. Think about those two terms, outside of relationships, when have you ever heard those terms used positively? If you had a daughter and you were able to choose the man she would court and possibly marry, would you choose an alpha? I understand that there isn't a set definition to this condition but, from the eyeball test, these men are unscrupulous. They target women for nothing more than a sexual conquest. I'll say it again, a sexual conquest, a woman is nothing more to them than "something to do." Once they've used a woman up, they'll cast her aside and then it's on to the next conquest. So, I'll ask again, men, would you want your daughter to interact with one of these individuals? 

The Beta Males are the providers and are sought after once the women are out of options or no longer seen as acceptable options for the Alphas. I'll check myself for a moment, please don't think that I'm women bashing here, this is merely an observation. Now, these men who, often times, had little to no success and were the ghosts in the world of relationships pay it no heed as they're happy to be in a relationship and add that to their general good nature that, more often than not, attributed to their lack of success gladly provide for these women. Often times, they willingly play the fool and accept a woman that didn't really care for them and, in her heart, considers him as "settling" only with him for what he can do for her or just because he's a sharp contrast to what's probably been done to her by the alphas because he's "safe." These are the men that take care of another man's children or, at the very least, take his "sloppy seconds." Men, would you want your sons to grow up be this kind of man? 

Now, the pupose of this thread is to say that there is virtually no difference between these two, they are two sides of the same coin. All either side is doing is pandering to women, the Alpha generally acts like something he's not to attract women. Those Alphas are weak individuals that have let women and the media dictate what a man should be or how he should act, in their hearts, they don't want to behave this way and haven't been raised to behave that way. They just see that it's the easiest way to attract a woman so they do it but, when it's time to prove themselves as Alphas(physical altercation, raising children, etc.), they can't rise to the occasion. The Betas have been beaten down by women and the media and are too weak to refuse to accept someone else's responsiblity and rather than be alone, they subject themselves to a life time of hardship that they didn't directly bring upon themselves. They're left holding the bill while the Alphas "dine and dash." 

The slight of hand with these two concepts is that they're both just pandering to women for acceptance and affirmation of manhood. Neither side actually wants to be what they are but they do it because it gets them accepted one way or another and rather than face what life is or could be as their true selves, they hide behind this psychobabble and pseudo science to lead them over the cliff. If all men would wake up, they'd realize that neither side is close to what a man is, at least, in my opinion. In addition to this, all each side is doing is merely competing with each other for no reason other than to avoid being seen as less than a man by a section of society, women and the media, that have no idea what a real man is instead of coming together and supporting each other so that we can become more attuned to what we've lost as men, manhood. 

Of course, that's just me and I could be wrong but I'd really like to hear your opinions on this matter.


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## SimplyAmorous

All I want to say is, I am an odd woman, I never seeked the Alpha type in my youth (bad boy terminology then), I knew just from observing others this was a train wreck in relationships, and I likely would be left dumped & hurting. So screw that. MY husband never cared to ACT or play a part to get girls in bed, he wanted more than that. I think we both acted in a manner that is outside of society's norms, it paid off for us. 

Books like this may help you to attract the women, but they sure as He* have little to teach about being a real man of character. Amazon.com: The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed (9780312360115): Mystery, Chris Odom, Neil Strauss: Books


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## Halien

It seems that you are taking the popular dating web site view of alpha and beta, and perhaps using that to suggest that all men only think about one thing: getting women.

Some, however, look at it as a core set of personality traits that exist at a level below that. So, you could be alpha or beta in your approach to alot of things.

Personally, I didn't think of it much in the context of my marriage relationship. I was asked to develop a training and mentoring package for work to help new supervisors in a place where they tended to become everyone's best friend, letting production and quality sink to terrible levels. My General Manager noticed that I was like him, and my areas of coverage always performed well. Somehow, I was called the hatchet man by the employees, but also achieved the best employee opinion scores in a company with tens of thousands of employees. My class was called 'Becoming a Change Agent'.

When I transferred to another place, my daughter added my name to her professor's research on the Alpha Personality Type. Through it all, our dating life was rarely discussed. He wanted to understand what drove the Alpha type. Incidentally, most of us in the study group tended to have guilt issues when our actions were perceived as selfish, but we were all very driven personalities, both men and women.

In my most honest moments of self analysis, I have to admit that I tend to spot beta types immediately, and classify them as different. Weak. But then, I begin to see that maybe they have it all figured out. They don't know everything, and are willing to put another's needs above their own. Or some other holy gobly **** that's impossible to understand. My boss says they're Martians.


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## alphaomega

I think you have the entire concept of alphas and betas wrong. Alphas are men of inner strength and confidence, while betas are loving and nurturing. Your concept of alphas and betas seems to come from a dating website. Being Alpha doesn't mean you act too selfish and are a d$ck to women. And being beta doesn't mean you are acting the way you are, being a nice guy, JUST to get laid. True Alphas have the inner strength and confidence NOT JUST to get women, but because they ARE strong and confident, but also fair. Getting the woman is a side affect of being alpha, not the goal. 

Ask yourself WHY the guy being the selfish **** at the bar does in fact get the woman.... It's because he is displaying SOME desirable traits to a female. However, because he's also a **** head he doesn't have enough true internal beta qualities to make a good lifelong mate. 

Ahh..I could go on and on, but there will be some more posts to explain this in more detail I'm sure...lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## okeydokie

does anyone really know what a woman wants at any given time?


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## swedish

Chocolate!


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## okeydokie

swedish said:


> Chocolate!


:rofl:


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## MarriedWifeInLove

okeydokie said:


> does anyone really know what a woman wants at any given time?


Nope - we don't half the time.

And men, well let me say this - most of them don't have a clue, they just "think" they do.

I am an Alpha female, so an Alpha male and I would clash constantly, so therefore I've never been drawn to one as I don't need someone fighting me to be Top Dog all the time.

A full Beta male is actually more complimentary to my personality. My husband has some of the traits of a Beta male, but some of the Alpha also (but not when it pertains to me) - so he's a little of a mix of both with something else thrown in that I haven't figured out yet - HA.

I've never, ever been drawn to the bad boys and have always been drawn to the more sensitive type of man.

There's positives and negatives on both sides. One is not better than the other - just different.


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## Deejo

I think you need to do more reading, or better yet a simple self-examination and determine if you need, or want to modify anything. If you are perfectly comfortable with who you are, but who you are isn't landing you dates - and you want to be dating, then your choices are pretty straightforward.

If you like who you are, and could give a sh!t about dating or what women think of you ... then you're that omega man you read about.

You and I had an exchange some time ago.

You were frustrated with being 'Friend Zoned' with most of your female acquaintances.


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## magnoliagal

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> There's positives and negatives on both sides. One is not better than the other - just different.


I agree with this. I mean I like to think how would the world work if all men were alpha's. And why is beta necessarily a bad thing? I'm an alpha female married to a happy beta man. I'm learning he's happy to let me be in charge and prefers it that way. Where I went wrong was trying to make him into an alpha when clearly he's not.


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## Runs like Dog

okeydokie said:


> does anyone really know what a woman wants at any given time?


"I don't want the world, I only want your half."


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## luckyman

Sometimes I'm an Alpha, sometimes a Beta. Whatever.


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## michzz

I can't figure out if it's an Alpha or Beta trait to read this thread, let alone to comment on it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## luckyman

michzz said:


> I can't figure out if it's an Alpha or Beta trait to read this thread, let alone to comment on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think anyone on the TAM site has at least a little Beta in them!


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## Conrad

I'll pass on this thread.

Life in the Friend Zone..... ouch.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Hey, SimplyAmorous, how's every little thing?

Actually, what I'm speaking about is a rejection of the whole concept of "Alpha," "Beta," and "Omega." It's not only for dating, I've seen scenarios in the topic of marriage, particularly infidelity, as well where some men who were acting responsibly in their marriage and have been cheated on are told to be more alpha to reattract their wives to them. I have done some self reflecting and realized that I was doing the same thing when I thought the situation warranted it. I am not absolving myself of any guilt, the point is that we've been driven by society to be what they want us to be, in other words, there's been an attack on basic manhood. No, real man would even think in these terms as he's probably too busy doing what a man does. The only time I've heard my father speak about an alpha male is when he's watching the Discovery Channel, along the way in my time in college, my view became distorted but I believe that I'm back to where my thoughts that he instilled in me on this subject should be in regards to myselfl, nothing. I have to desire to be any of these three or aparty to this thinking and thus I will no longer. Don't get me wrong, I'm still, at heart, a kind individual or I strive to be. If a woman asks for my assistance in a respectful manner and I can see that she needs it, I will help, it's what's left of the Christian in me, but at my choosing.


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## OOE

Where has anyone suggested being a "bad boy" or a "thug" or even becoming all alpha?

The real point is that it's important to display some alpha actions while at the same time keeping the beta traits that make you a good husband and father. They aren't opposing things.

Here's an example - tell me what part of this is "bad boy" behavior:

Husband calls his wife - "_Call a sitter. I'm hopping in the shower when I get home. Be ready to go out by 6:30. Wear that red dress that I like._" :smthumbup:

She asks, "_where are we going?_"

He says, "_you'll see..._" 

Compare this to the non-alpha version of this same scenario:

Husband calls his wife - "_What do you want to do tonight?_" :sleeping:

That interaction isn't about being bad or mistreating her. It's just about taking charge and showing in little confident ways that he's the man.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

OOE said:


> Where has anyone suggested being a "bad boy" or a "thug" or even becoming all alpha?
> 
> The real point is that it's important to display some alpha actions while at the same time keeping the beta traits that make you a good husband and father. They aren't opposing things.
> 
> Here's an example - tell me what part of this is "bad boy" behavior:
> 
> Husband calls his wife - "_Call a sitter. I'm hopping in the shower when I get home. Be ready to go out by 6:30. Wear that red dress that I like._" :smthumbup:
> 
> She asks, "_where are we going?_"
> 
> He says, "_you'll see..._"
> 
> Compare this to the non-alpha version of this same scenario:
> 
> Husband calls his wife - "_What do you want to do tonight?_" :sleeping:
> 
> That interaction isn't about being bad or mistreating her. It's just about taking charge and showing in little confident ways that he's the man.


If that's who you are then that's who you are as a person, what I'm saying is that there is no need to display any traits of an alpha or beta. You should only display traits of who you are as a man whatever that means to you, it's everyone else's job to adapt to you unless you identify that who you are is negative and want to change. I've come to realize that I'm tired of this game...game, that's another priceless term. All game is submission to the whims of women and the hoops they'd have you jump through. Anyway, I'm tired of this game and I'm a man not a lower form of animal so I have no need to be labeled anything let alone Alpha or Beta like I'm being documented on the Discovery Channel. I do what I want when I want, I can do it with you or without you. That choice is yours. If that scenario played out and I wanted to go somewhere for the evening, I'll ask if she wants to go. If she says yes, we can move on to discussing where we go if we can agree on a place that will be mutually enjoyable for both of us. If she declines then I will see her at a later hour.


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## Conrad

Miscreant,

I see your confusion now.

You think who we are remains static.

Far from it.

Different "parts" of our personality dominate in many different situations.

All we're talking about is emphasizing a part that's more likely to be successful than the consistent failures many experience.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Conrad said:


> Miscreant,
> 
> I see your confusion now.
> 
> You think who we are remains static.
> 
> Far from it.
> 
> Different "parts" of our personality dominate in many different situations.
> 
> All we're talking about is emphasizing a part that's more likely to be successful than the consistent failures many experience.


"Nothing is static, even the Mona Lisa's falling apart."

What I'm saying is that we've let everyone else tell us what to do, when are we, men, going to do what we want to do? If you want to be kind, then be kind. If you want to be a jerk, then be a jerk.


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## SimplyAmorous

OOE said:


> Here's an example - tell me what part of this is "bad boy" behavior:
> 
> Husband calls his wife - "_Call a sitter. I'm hopping in the shower when I get home. Be ready to go out by 6:30. Wear that red dress that I like._" :smthumbup:
> 
> She asks, "_where are we going?_"
> 
> He says, "_you'll see..._"
> 
> Compare this to the non-alpha version of this same scenario:
> 
> Husband calls his wife - "_What do you want to do tonight?_" :sleeping:
> 
> That interaction isn't about being bad or mistreating her. It's just about taking charge and showing in little confident ways that he's the man.


I like this example. Good one. I can tell you though, My husband is the one who would call & say "What do you want to do tonight?" (I wouldnt be sleeping though) I would likely have an immediate enthusastic response. I don't think he has ever talked like the Alpha example , though that would be pretty exciting! Gonna have to tell him to give me that senerio someday. 

I am more the Alpha. But I still love him for who he is.


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## Conrad

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> "Nothing is static, even the Mona Lisa's falling apart."
> 
> What I'm saying is that we've let everyone else tell us what to do, when are we, men, going to do what we want to do? If you want to be kind, then be kind. If you want to be a jerk, then be a jerk.


Not sure what you're after.

Our personalities have many parts.

And, a large part of this forum is discussing what is the best way to respond (which part of your personality to use) when challenged.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Conrad said:


> Not sure what you're after.
> 
> Our personalities have many parts.
> 
> And, a large part of this forum is discussing what is the best way to respond (which part of your personality to use) when challenged.


I'm not after anything other than dialogue on this particular topic, which I thank you and everyone else for.

I recently came to the realization that, in western culture, everything men do has a judgment passed upon it and we allow ourselves to be subjected to this judgement for no other reason than to please others, particularly women. 

I took time for some self assessment and realized that I had been aparty to this as well and realized that I don't want to be. I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul. No one will anymore tell me that trying to be decent is a negative trait.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal

OOE said:


> Here's an example - tell me what part of this is "bad boy" behavior:
> 
> Husband calls his wife - "_Call a sitter. I'm hopping in the shower when I get home. Be ready to go out by 6:30. Wear that red dress that I like._" :smthumbup:
> 
> She asks, "_where are we going?_"
> 
> He says, "_you'll see..._"
> 
> Compare this to the non-alpha version of this same scenario:
> 
> Husband calls his wife - "_What do you want to do tonight?_" :sleeping:
> 
> That interaction isn't about being bad or mistreating her. It's just about taking charge and showing in little confident ways that he's the man.


See this is why I couldn't be with an alpha man. I don't respond well to demands of any kind. I'm not a big fan of authority figures and when I worked the only way I could do it is if I were the boss or knew I'd get there quickly.

My beta husband can call and ask me nicely to get a sitter yada, yada but more than likely he will yes ask me what I want to do tonight and what's wrong with that? I'm not sleeping either I find it polite and courteous. However I'm learning that an alpha female does have responsibilities. It's up to me to make sure that he gets a say in what we do. An example for years when we went out it was always mexican because it's my favorite then I found out he was sick of it and wanted chinese but didn't speak up. That makes me a bad leader for not taking the time to find out what he wanted.

An alpha male doesn't have to be a bad guy if he takes his responsibility seriously. He would be a great leader who would cherish his wife and kids.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

magnoliagal said:


> I agree with this. I mean I like to think how would the world work if all men were alpha's. And why is beta necessarily a bad thing? I'm an alpha female married to a happy beta man. I'm learning he's happy to let me be in charge and prefers it that way. Where I went wrong was trying to make him into an alpha when clearly he's not.


Maybe that's part of my problem. 

Maybe my husband is more of a Beta than I thought.

I don't think he wants to be an Alpha - but I wish he would - at least in the bedroom!


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## magnoliagal

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Maybe that's part of my problem.
> 
> Maybe my husband is more of a Beta than I thought.
> 
> I don't think he wants to be an Alpha - but I wish he would - at least in the bedroom!


I've really been doing a lot of thinking and the only way to find out is to try this theory out. Embrace my role at alpha, let him be beta but play it nice and cool so's not to attack his manhood. I don't think my husband wants to be an alpha either. I think he's quite happy to let me run things which I'm fine with EXCEPT for in the bedroom. I just came up with a brilliant plan that I'm going to try next time I get a chance. I'm going to nicely but in an alpha way tell him exactly what I want him to do in the bedroom. I honestly think my H is game for more than I give him credit for but he needs my permission first. I think I'm too much of a hard ass to be that approachable. Expecting him to take me now is unlikely to happen unless I tell him to do it first.


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## Halien

magnoliagal said:


> See this is why I couldn't be with an alpha man. I don't respond well to demands of any kind. I'm not a big fan of authority figures and when I worked the only way I could do it is if I were the boss or knew I'd get there quickly.
> 
> My beta husband can call and ask me nicely to get a sitter yada, yada but more than likely he will yes ask me what I want to do tonight and what's wrong with that? I'm not sleeping either I find it polite and courteous. However I'm learning that an alpha female does have responsibilities. It's up to me to make sure that he gets a say in what we do. An example for years when we went out it was always mexican because it's my favorite then I found out he was sick of it and wanted chinese but didn't speak up. That makes me a bad leader for not taking the time to find out what he wanted.
> 
> An alpha male doesn't have to be a bad guy if he takes his responsibility seriously. He would be a great leader who would cherish his wife and kids.


Somehow, though, there could be an assumption in some of the posts that alpha equates to disrespectful or not very bright. Learning a woman's tastes is not a beta domain. It's just common sense if you want to respect her. So, alphas do it. Once a guy learns what she likes, sometimes (according to my wife) its refreshing just to go out without making the decisions. While getting to know each other, some women don't mind the guy trying to take the lead in a date as long as he communicates that his intention is aimed at her happiness. But, if she's alpha too, the relationship can take an entertaining dynamic as long as its 'you focused'. I dated a few alpha women, and enjoyed to have the tables turned.

What people seem to keep missing is that an alpha type would be a poor alpha if people didn't really want to be led when appropriate. In the work force, the first stage is winning the crowd. The second is leading. Can't go to the second without having the first. 

At work, I tend to work very well with alpha women. It would be condecending to try to push them in the direction of my choosing, so we alpha guys can actually adjust our style to work with them. If they handle the project well, I'll go along. But if they don't, then I hope they can extend me the same courtesy.


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## magnoliagal

Halien said:


> What people seem to keep missing is that an alpha type would be a poor alpha if people didn't really want to be led when appropriate. In the work force, the first stage is winning the crowd. The second is leading. Can't go to the second without having the first.


Exactly. It's a balancing act. There are many times when my beta man does not want to be led or told what to do. I need to be smart to know when those times are. And yes in some areas I totally missed the mark on winning him over before leading. Still sounds so weird to say "leading". But yes at home I rule and every attempt to get him to do it have failed. 

It's a lot of pressure though. Not that long ago I had to make a huge decision regarding whether to sell our house or not (he had taken a paycut). At the time I felt terrible about it but now he says he's grateful I made that call as it was a wise one. Shortly thereafter the bottom fell out of the market and now there are more issues with his work.

My point is at the time I hadn't embraced my role as alpha female. I think if I would have the whole process would have been easier. Instead I found myself getting frustrated because he kept deferring to me to make that final decision. I didn't get it.


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## SimplyAmorous

MY husband doesn't want to hear "my mouth" if he chooses something he might want to do or buy & it might be in conflict with something I wanted (thankfully we usually have very similar ideas, plans & wants) so he almost always lets me decide- he doesn't care for this lead. This doesn't sound good I suppose but I know he feels this way in some measure. I ALWAYS ask him how he feels about everything under the sun though & make sure he is happy too, or at least the next time around-he gets his. 

When he is against something, he does make a fuss, He did ALOT of bulking about my carpet choices last week, I wanted Frieze style & he likes the more traditional carpet. He gave it a GOOD fight, he kept putting down my Frieze , making fun , saying it was old timers shag carpet, it was ugly , his was better, etc. He was even arguing with me in the store, but I LIKED this somehow, cause he doesn't stand up too much & fight me. We were even going at it in front of the Guy doing our order-but in a playful way. We agreed this year we'll get my Frieze style for 2 rooms and next year we'll get his style for 2 other rooms. 

He enjoys the fact if I plan it all and it is a disaster (rarely) then he can let me know it was MY idea. And not his . Isn't that nice of him.  

Take vacations for example - He is MUCH EASIER to please than I am, I get bored easy & require more excitement than him. His motto is - so long as he is with family, he is happy. My motto is - I want the family but it also has to be FUN, something entertaining, interesting or I would rather just stay home & be yakking on TAM.


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## boxer

LOL! I read your original message, then read every single response, then went back and read your original message again.

It's clear that everyone who responded here either didn't read the original post, or didn't care enough to give a genuine answer.

Like you, I find the alpha/beta dichotomy to be ridiculous. I don't bother acting like more of a jerk than I am already to please some female (who will never add anything substantive to my life anyway). 

Be who you are meant to be, and don't sacrifice your own integrity simply to please another person. If that means you're single for ever, so much the better. Single guys have more and better sex, far more money, and they don't lose everything in the man-hating divorce court when princess grows bored and decides to look outside the marriage for that "thug" she's always fantasized about (helped along by the sexist television programs which feature cheating "empowered" women constantly).


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## Duddy

From what I understand a good rule of thumb for understanding human behavior is that 40% is hard wired and 60% is learned. Even the most negative hardwired influences on behavior are subject to powerful mechanisms of choice and stimulus control. This is true of men and woman alike. 

80% of married couples have affairs for example, until they learn how to communicate, meet each others' core relationship needs and set up protective boundaries for their marriage. Healthy married couples who have learned these basic skills are spiritually, emotionally, psychologically and physically more healthy than their single counter parts (i.e. married couples live longer). 

From the perspective of a professional counselor and behavior consultant, I think it's far more practical to learn and talk about what kind of behavioral and emotional changes we need to make in ourselves and with our partners to be more healthy individuals and couples. 

There are so many evidence-based strategies for positive change to explore. After all, the more we focus on being better people and partners, the more we are learning and the more those "wired" influences loose their significance and influence on our choices and instead find expression in the positive paths we choose for their expression. 

So many people get tricked into thinking that internal and external behavioral influences some how mean we have little or no free choice in the matter!

Your Online Marriage Coach,
- Duddy.


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## Trenton

boxer said:


> LOL! I read your original message, then read every single response, then went back and read your original message again.
> 
> It's clear that everyone who responded here either didn't read the original post, or didn't care enough to give a genuine answer.
> 
> Like you, I find the alpha/beta dichotomy to be ridiculous. I don't bother acting like more of a jerk than I am already to please some female (who will never add anything substantive to my life anyway).
> 
> Be who you are meant to be, and don't sacrifice your own integrity simply to please another person. If that means you're single for ever, so much the better. Single guys have more and better sex, far more money, and they don't lose everything in the man-hating divorce court when princess grows bored and decides to look outside the marriage for that "thug" she's always fantasized about (helped along by the sexist television programs which feature cheating "empowered" women constantly).


On the contrary: Benefits of Marriage: Men's Health


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## Atholk

The original post seems more of a complaint than a question.

Men use a combination of Alpha and Beta Traits to attract women. Do it and have sexual access to women, or don't don't do it and don't have sexual access to women.

I think you're just complaining that you have to do something active to attract a sex partner.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Atholk said:


> The original post seems more of a complaint than a question.
> 
> Men use a combination of Alpha and Beta Traits to attract women. Do it and have sexual access to women, or don't don't do it and don't have sexual access to women.
> 
> I think you're just complaining that you have to do something active to attract a sex partner.


Why can't I just be me? Why can't I just be a man? The "active attraction" process does nothing more than distract men from doing what's needed in the world. Is it a wonder why western culture doesn't produce anything anymore?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Why can't I just be me? Why can't I just be a man? The "active attraction" process does nothing more than distract men from doing what's needed in the world. Is it a wonder why western culture doesn't produce anything anymore?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree. What kind of fraud needs a guide to themselves to pretend to be some ideal that attracts women and how will this ever really create happiness in their lives?

There is no answer unless the answer is shallow and self serving. 

So, there you have it. If you have depth and a sense of self you won't need these types of guides. If you don't you will because you've lost every sense of who you are and blame women, or more specifically a specific woman, for this loss. Although convenient, it no less points to the fact that these guides only work for men who are uncomfortable in the pants they've chosen to put on.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Trenton said:


> I agree. What kind of fraud needs a guide to themselves to pretend to be some ideal that attracts women and how will this ever really create happiness in their lives?
> 
> There is no answer unless the answer is shallow and self serving.
> 
> So, there you have it. If you have depth and a sense of self you won't need these types of guides. If you don't you will because you've lost every sense of who you are and blame women, or more specifically a specific woman, for this loss. Although convenient, it no less points to the fact that these guides only work for men who are uncomfortable in the pants they've chosen to put on.


Exactly, men are selling their souls nowadays due to what the media and non-males are telling us to be, how can we be happy being anything other than we you are? If who you are has truly changed, okay, but the world forsakes us enough. No need for us to help it. Hell, there is no guide to being we you are.


----------



## boxer

Trenton said:


> On the contrary: Benefits of Marriage: Men's Health


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You must be kidding.

In the USA, 50 percent of marriages end in divorce, and 80 percent of those divorces are sought by women. Men then become a slave of their women for life, with lifetime alimony and punitive child support. About half never see their children regularly again. Google suggests that the suicide rate is nine times higher among divorced men than women.

Simple web searches reveal lots of statistics, none of which back up the supposed "health benefits" of a marriage to a narcissistic American woman who is incentivized to cheat and divorce a faithful man. 

Staying single is the only safe way to go. Nearly all my relatives have been married and divorced, and all my acquaintances at work too, and it's been a disaster for every man and a windfall for every woman. 

Again, getting back to the topic at hand, why should any man jump through female constructed hoops simply to invite such a creature into his life?


----------



## Trenton

boxer said:


> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You must be kidding.
> 
> In the USA, 50 percent of marriages end in divorce, and 80 percent of those divorces are sought by women. Men then become a slave of their women for life, with lifetime alimony and punitive child support. About half never see their children regularly again. Google suggests that the suicide rate is nine times higher among divorced men than women.
> 
> Simple web searches reveal lots of statistics, none of which back up the supposed "health benefits" of a marriage to a narcissistic American woman who is incentivized to cheat and divorce a faithful man.
> 
> Staying single is the only safe way to go. Nearly all my relatives have been married and divorced, and all my acquaintances at work too, and it's been a disaster for every man and a windfall for every woman.
> 
> Again, getting back to the topic at hand, why should any man jump through female constructed hoops simply to invite such a creature into his life?


Don't know what to tell you besides that maybe you are better off alone. I just did a quick search and that's what came up. No idea if Men's Health is ironically run by narcissistic American women.

If I were surrounded by what you are surrounded by no doubt I'd feel similarly. No doubt marriage is difficult but it's certainly not geared towards the happiness of women alone. For everyone like a story like you there is an opposite but equally damning story towards men. Who cares? Find your happiness. If that means being single, so be it.


----------



## Trenton

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Exactly, men are selling their souls nowadays due to what the media and non-males are telling us to be, how can we be happy being anything other than we you are? If who you are has truly changed, okay, but the world forsakes us enough. No need for us to help it. Hell, there is no guide to being we you are.


If you pay attention I think you'll find women are more confused by this alpha/beta stuff than men are. I don't think it was conjured up by non-males.

If you know yourself, no doubt, you'd be happier being that than anything else.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

Trenton said:


> If you pay attention I think you'll find women are more confused by this alpha/beta stuff than men are. I don't think it was conjured up by non-males.
> 
> If you know yourself, no doubt, you'd be happier being that than anything else.


I'm not blaming women alone, I apologize if I gave that impression. There are generations of men that have signed off on it as well.

"Women like it if I'm a jerk, huh? I'll just be a jerk despite what I believe in." 

"Women like it if I spend money on them, I'll take the next woman out to a fancy restaurant I can't really afford."

"Women like it if dress this way, I'll run out and get a bunch of clothes that I'm uncomfortable in."

Yeah, no one, women included, can be happy in a relationship unless they know and are happy with themselves. Take a look at the infedility section, all of the WS are sick people and were true to themselves to begin with. There's no fog, just a twisted individual that's currently highly motivated.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I think everyone should be the "BEST" he or she -they can possibly be in this life, never putting on an act to "please" another. Learn who you are, your temperment, your strenghts & weakness's & work on those weakness as to become that better more confident balanced person- before others, in the workplace, with the opposite sex. 

I am not into people jumping through uncomfortable hoops to win anyone, friend or date. We need to 1st look at ourselves and ask if WE need a little tweeking in our *communication skills*, or *how we dress *(some really are slobs), how much attention we put on *health habits *(brushing our teeth - to exercising). 

I wouldn't whine & dine some women who expects silver platter attention if you are a frugal guy, Heck you don't want a woman like that anyway, no matter how HOT she is - so why even pursue her. Move on with a smile. 

What is so wonderful about this life is - we ARE all so very different. If you can find a woman who is not so influenced by society's norms or expectations, who chooses the nice man , because she is a nice woman & cares about such things, you will have found gold. 

I wonder how high YOUR STANDARDS are? Are you only looking to win the beautys ? I think many of men will remain single for life if their standards are set too high. I guess we can't help it if our attraction is RICHLY influenced by looks alone, but this would be a shame. 

Have you tried Online dating? I think you ought to give it a whirl , broaden your horizens. Many find love this way -it is our new reality. Be honest about yourself, what you are looking for, see who you might catch. Hook some dates. 


The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them. ~Thomas Merton


----------



## okeydokie

Trenton said:


> No doubt marriage is difficult but it's certainly not geared towards the happiness of women alone. .


oh yeah, tell me what percentage of women vs men watched the royal wedding?


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think everyone should be the "BEST" he or she -they can possibly be in this life, never putting on an act to "please" another. Learn who you are, your temperment, your strenghts & weakness's & work on those weakness as to become that better more confident balanced person- before others, in the workplace, with the opposite sex.
> 
> I am not into people jumping through uncomfortable hoops to win anyone, friend or date. We need to 1st look at ourselves and ask if WE need a little tweeking in our *communication skills*, or *how we dress *(some really are slobs), how much attention we put on *health habits *(brushing our teeth - to exercising).
> 
> I wouldn't whine & dine some women who expects silver platter attention if you are a frugal guy, Heck you don't want a woman like that anyway, no matter how HOT she is - so why even pursue her. Move on with a smile.
> 
> What is so wonderful about this life is - we ARE all so very different. If you can find a woman who is not so influenced by society's norms or expectations, who chooses the nice man , because she is a nice woman & cares about such things, you will have found gold.
> 
> I wonder how high YOUR STANDARDS are? Are you only looking to win the beautys ? I think many of men will remain single for life if their standards are set too high. I guess we can't help it if our attraction is RICHLY influenced by looks alone, but this would be a shame.
> 
> Have you tried Online dating? I think you ought to give it a whirl , broaden your horizens. Many find love this way -it is our new reality. Be honest about yourself, what you are looking for, see who you might catch. Hook some dates.
> 
> 
> The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves, and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them. ~Thomas Merton


Well said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Why can't I just be me? Why can't I just be a man? The "active attraction" process does nothing more than distract men from doing what's needed in the world. Is it a wonder why western culture doesn't produce anything anymore?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you are totally happy and content, sometimes ecstatic, and frequently experience true joy in your life then of course just be who you are right now.

Unfortunately most of us don’t continuously and consistently find ourselves in your “exalted position”. It’s in our life’s “down times” that we look to change ourselves and it’s good to know, although somewhat difficult to believe, that a person can go through life just being who they are without any need to change.

Bob


----------



## Deejo

okeydokie said:


> oh yeah, tell me what percentage of women vs men watched the royal wedding?


And of all of that coverage, 90% was focused on Kate - and 10% was focused on William, and the fact that he's losing his hair. Apparently being a prince isn't what it used to be ...

Misguided, if you want to be who you are ... then you're on the right track. If you want to be in a sexual relationship with a woman ... and who you are is preventing that, then you have a bit of a conundrum.

You are classifying behavior modification for a perceived positive result, as a negative. As Athol said, it leaves the impression that you would rather complain about it, or resent that there are steps to take to foster attraction, rather than just doing it.

If you wanted to be a singer, one would surmise that you have to practice in order to improve your voice.

If you want muscles, you have to decide which resistance exercises to do, at what time, in what fashion and combine those efforts with a healthy proper diet.

If you want to be an artist you need to know about color, light, perspective, and mediums.

Pursuing any of those goals has nothing to do with not being true to yourself, betraying who you are, or pandering.

They are necessary and worthwhile steps to achieve an outcome by the individual that chooses to pursue those goals.

If you think you can simply fall into a healthy, functional, loving, long term relationship without knowing about attraction, boundaries, communication and conflict resolution, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Being alpha or beta is not the goal. They are tools ... both of them. And most of the individuals discussing this stuff make that abundantly clear. It is not now and has never been about being one or the other. You use the tools to _strengthen who you are_, regardless of whether you are pursuing a new relationship, or ending an long term, painful one.

This love thing? It isn't easy, and you know what? It isn't supposed to be. But irresponsibly, most think it is.


----------



## Trenton

You guys know more about the royal wedding than me. Everything I learned about it I learned by mistake while reading Facebook...sometimes I am very thankful we don't have television.


----------



## Trenton

Deejo, being yourself shouldn't take practice. If it does then you are most likely not being yourself to begin with and that's why you need the lessons.


----------



## michzz

Trenton said:


> You guys know more about the royal wedding than me. Everything I learned about it I learned by mistake while reading Facebook...sometimes I am very thankful we don't have television.


My favorite wedding, hands down, is the wedding scene in "the Princess Bride."

After seeing the silliness of the last gasp of the British royalty being played out the other day, I had to watch it again. Hysterical!

YouTube - Princess Bride - The Wedding

"Mawwaaage, that dweam within a dweam."


----------



## Deejo

Trenton said:


> Deejo, being yourself shouldn't take practice. If it does then you are most likely not being yourself to begin with and that's why you need the lessons.


Using that logic, if I truly were a selfish, narcissistic, womanizing, SOB, who changed sex partners like socks, and cared nothing for the emotional wreckage I left in my wake ... but wondered why I couldn't maintain a long term, loving, relationship, I should just ... go with it, and be the best bastard I can possibly be?

I don't think you believe that statement for one moment. You just don't care for the subject matter.


----------



## Conrad

Deejo said:


> Using that logic, if I truly were a selfish, narcissistic, womanizing, SOB, who changed sex partners like socks, and cared nothing for the emotional wreckage I left in my wake ... but wondered why I couldn't maintain a long term, loving, relationship, I should just ... go with it, and be the best bastard I can possibly be?
> 
> I don't think you believe that statement for one moment. You just don't care for the subject matter.


Wasn't she the gal that just came to grips with herself over her husband's schedule issues?

Seems like the same kind of lesson here.

Ces't lavie


----------



## Trenton

Deejo said:


> Using that logic, if I truly were a selfish, narcissistic, womanizing, SOB, who changed sex partners like socks, and cared nothing for the emotional wreckage I left in my wake ... but wondered why I couldn't maintain a long term, loving, relationship, I should just ... go with it, and be the best bastard I can possibly be?
> 
> I don't think you believe that statement for one moment. You just don't care for the subject matter.


Yeah, maybe. Besides I never said I didn't need practice, just a different kind of practice. Life sort of beats us all up and we have to work that out but we're still responsible for ourselves.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> Wasn't she the gal that just came to grips with herself over her husband's schedule issues?
> 
> Seems like the same kind of lesson here.
> 
> Ces't lavie


"The gal"? hehehe

You're cute.


----------



## AFEH

Trenton said:


> Deejo, being yourself shouldn't take practice. If it does then you are most likely not being yourself to begin with and that's why you need the lessons.


People change as to whether they want to or not because life changes them. Some people even let life “make them” bitter and resentful.

It is the very wise person who changes themselves to create and bring about the world they want to live in.

Bob


----------



## tacoma

I think you have an incorrect definition of what an "alpha" or "beta" male is.

An Alpha male isn`t a "thug" or "bad boy".
A thug can be an alpha male but an alpha male need not be a thug.

An Alpha male is nothing more than a strong, confident, self assured, male who is comfortable with himself.

I would find it difficult to argue that most women don`t desire strength and confidence in their men.

Life experience has shown me that alpha males have far greater choice in mates than men who lack confidence in themselves.


----------



## PHTlump

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Why can't I just be me? Why can't I just be a man? The "active attraction" process does nothing more than distract men from doing what's needed in the world. Is it a wonder why western culture doesn't produce anything anymore?


You can absolutely be you. But you shouldn't complain when women don't want you.

Women want what they want. If you're unwilling to give them that, you shouldn't be surprised or dismayed when they decline your offers for sex or relationships.

And there's an argument to made for the case that "active attraction" is largely responsible for many of the great achievements of human civilization.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> "The gal"? hehehe
> 
> You're cute.


So I've been told.


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

tacoma said:


> I think you have an incorrect definition of what an "alpha" or "beta" male is.
> 
> An Alpha male isn`t a "thug" or "bad boy".
> A thug can be an alpha male but an alpha male need not be a thug.
> 
> An Alpha male is nothing more than a strong, confident, self assured, male who is comfortable with himself.
> 
> I would find it difficult to argue that most women don`t desire strength and confidence in their men.
> 
> Life experience has shown me that alpha males have far greater choice in mates than men who lack confidence in themselves.


Again, I reject the concept as a whole as I am a man, not an animal. I wasn't born a calf then grew into a bull, I wasn't born a cub and grew into a lion. I was born a boy and grew into a man. 

Alpha and Beta Males are labels given to define the types of males in the animal kingdom, I concede the fact that human being have animal characteristics and animal instincts. The difference is our higher brain functions, namely, a conscience. 

My instincts make me want a woman, my conscience prevent me from forcing myself on her.

My instincts make me want shelter, my conscience makes me not break into your house. 



PHTlump said:


> You can absolutely be you. But you shouldn't complain when women don't want you.
> 
> Women want what they want. If you're unwilling to give them that, you shouldn't be surprised or dismayed when they decline your offers for sex or relationships.
> 
> And there's an argument to made for the case that "active attraction" is largely responsible for many of the great achievements of human civilization.


Thank you. Really, I'm not complaining if a woman doesn't want me, that's cool. What I'm making a statement of is that men have lost the ability to define themselves. A woman can't tell you how to be a man, as someone once said to to me, "You can't tell a dolphin how to be a dolphin."

Also, to your last point, I'd love for you to hear more about that.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> So I've been told.


A very "alpha" remark


----------



## Trenton

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Again, I reject the concept as a whole as I am a man, not an animal. I wasn't born a calf then grew into a bull, I wasn't born a cub and grew into a lion. I was born a boy and grew into a man.
> 
> Alpha and Beta Males are labels given to define the types of males in the animal kingdom, I concede the fact that human being have animal characteristics and animal instincts. The difference is our higher brain functions, namely, a conscience.
> 
> My instincts make me want a woman, my conscience prevent me from forcing myself on her.
> 
> My instincts make me want shelter, my conscience makes me not break into your house.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. Really, I'm not complaining if a woman doesn't want me, that's cool. What I'm making a statement of is that men have lost the ability to define themselves. A woman can't tell you how to be a man, as someone once said to to me, "You can't tell a dolphin how to be a dolphin."
> 
> Also, to your last point, I'd love for you to hear more about that.


This idea that women want what they want and that it is some standard that if met will satisfy all or most women is demeaning. The same holds true for man. How depressing that we are supposed to believe that we are as simple as the formulas we do understand and not as complex as the formulas we've yet to discover!

Now, this is actually directed at the lump poster but, any woman or man worth their weight in gold (using a well loved cliché for ironies sake) will not be manipulated or instantly transformed by a certain set of trite behaviors. A challenging man or woman will indeed challenge your behaviors and ideals, strive to make you better and force you to look directly at yourself and what you've been taught -or so I believe-. When you come to the conclusion you were right or decide you were wrong you will know that a systematic biological response did not dictate your intense emotion for your man or woman. That is the peak and imperfect, perfection of our humanity. Hate it or love it, this is what a conscious coupled with intelligence gifts you.

Nothing less would do for me. So dare to be yourself and then figure out where you fall or stand. Granted, this is very hard to do when coupled with the ordinary stresses of every day life and our standard biological responses, but I can't imagine anything different. I truly believe we are far more capable than most of us give us credit for.


----------



## Trenton

michzz said:


> My favorite wedding, hands down, is the wedding scene in "the Princess Bride."
> 
> After seeing the silliness of the last gasp of the British royalty being played out the other day, I had to watch it again. Hysterical!
> 
> YouTube - Princess Bride - The Wedding
> 
> "Mawwaaage, that dweam within a dweam."


Exactly! :rofl:


----------



## Trenton

AFEH said:


> People change as to whether they want to or not because life changes them. Some people even let life “make them” bitter and resentful.
> 
> It is the very wise person who changes themselves to create and bring about the world they want to live in.
> 
> Bob


Change is inevitable. My five year old son is a budding Entomologist. He loves and is enthralled by bugs. Most recently he purchased caterpillars and watched them transform into butterflies. This is after he watched a hissing ****roach grow from baby to adult. After spending weeks invested in these caterpillars that turned into beautiful butterflies he decided to set them free. It's funny but as parents we didn't know if this was the right thing to do. On the instructions it says to not let them free and yet to my son it seemed like the right thing to do and so we figured it was alright. Now we joke that he has somehow managed to create a poisonous mutant of a butterfly that will be responsible for the end to humans. It is hard to know what the right choice is but I think we are capable.

“How does one become a butterfly?” she asked. “You must want to fly so much that you are willing to give up being a caterpillar.” -Anonymous


----------



## Runs like Dog

I'm just a misanthrope.


----------



## tacoma

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> Again, I reject the concept as a whole as I am a man, not an animal.


Actually humans ARE animals.


----------



## AFEH

tacoma said:


> Actually humans ARE animals.


Just that some got way too domesticated.

Bob


----------



## alphaomega

Trenton, 

I think you are fooling yourself with the idea because we are human our intelligence decides the fact what mate we choose. We are a lot more closer to the animal kingdom than most realize. Even our intelligence evolution was based on one whole purpose...live and breed or die young and childiless. We grew smart, because smarts made us the most lethal hunters and survivors in the world. Ever wonder what happened to those stronger, dumber pre-humans in history? Those ones that could overpower us and eat us for dinner? We annihilated them into extinction by building bigger and better weapons and traps!

As for mating, there is a lot more going on in your lower brain than we realize. To make an analogy based on pure fantasy...you know why Ken and barbie never got married? Even though they are the perceived perfect 10s? Because thier kids would be god awful ugly little sh$ts destined to become lower than low on the evolutionary mating scale. Why? Thier features don't genetically seem to meld well when combined. Lol!

The same thing is happening in our lower brain right now...with every single person we meet. Our brain will deduce from sight which parters will produce the best offspring with the best chance of them mating successfully based on how your brain thinks your genes will express together. Our noses pick up on pheromones that mix with ours the best, locking together perfectly like two puzzle pieces. And our intelligence will factor in more cognitive matches based on stability, means to protect, good nurturing qualities to help raise our children, and overall mental health of our mate. ALL designed to make cute little babies that will grow up to make thier own cute little babies.

We like to think we are totally cognitively in control of our choices of mates, but the fact is we are not as in control as we tend to think.






Trenton said:


> This idea that women want what they want and that it is some standard that if met will satisfy all or most women is demeaning. The same holds true for man. How depressing that we are supposed to believe that we are as simple as the formulas we do understand and not as complex as the formulas we've yet to discover!
> 
> Now, this is actually directed at the lump poster but, any woman or man worth their weight in gold (using a well loved cliché for ironies sake) will not be manipulated or instantly transformed by a certain set of trite behaviors. A challenging man or woman will indeed challenge your behaviors and ideals, strive to make you better and force you to look directly at yourself and what you've been taught -or so I believe-. When you come to the conclusion you were right or decide you were wrong you will know that a systematic biological response did not dictate your intense emotion for your man or woman. That is the peak and imperfect, perfection of our humanity. Hate it or love it, this is what a conscious coupled with intelligence gifts you.
> 
> Nothing less would do for me. So dare to be yourself and then figure out where you fall or stand. Granted, this is very hard to do when coupled with the ordinary stresses of every day life and our standard biological responses, but I can't imagine anything different. I truly believe we are far more capable than most of us give us credit for.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MisguidedMiscreant

tacoma said:


> Actually humans ARE animals.


I just said that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sinnister

Personally I have my own opinion of Alpha and Beta. You either have it or you don't. There's no middle grown. There's nothing to learn. These are inherent traits. Either you seek to lead or you follow. Either you have the confidence in your relationship to assert your aspirations, goals, convictions and seek to do the same for hers...or you don't.

The threads that go on for about a thousand pages with the original poster still not getting it is my evidence. It can't be taught.


----------



## alphaomega

sinnister said:


> Personally I have my own opinion of Alpha and Beta. You either have it or you don't. There's no middle grown. There's nothing to learn. These are inherent traits. Either you seek to lead or you follow. Either you have the confidence in your relationship to assert your aspirations, goals, convictions and seek to do the same for hers...or you don't.
> 
> The threads that go on for about a thousand pages with the original poster still not getting it is my evidence. It can't be taught.


I disagree
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien

sinnister said:


> Personally I have my own opinion of Alpha and Beta. You either have it or you don't. There's no middle grown. There's nothing to learn. These are inherent traits. Either you seek to lead or you follow. Either you have the confidence in your relationship to assert your aspirations, goals, convictions and seek to do the same for hers...or you don't.
> 
> The threads that go on for about a thousand pages with the original poster still not getting it is my evidence. It can't be taught.


I would personally clarify the statement to say that the potential is there, or missing. I was mentored into it, but my mentor claimed that he sensed the potential. I remember my first supervisor asking me if I was content to stay in my current job for 35 years, which was virtually an invisible job. I said absolutely yes. The thought of leading others was not something that I wanted a part of. My next manager challenged me to consider growing my career. This guy was incredible, because he put me in the right places at the right time, and it became like an addiction. 

I think the trigger for me to tap into my alpha nature was to work in a company so defined by integrity that those in higher positions have to sign an annual statment regarding our committment to values, and submit to periodic assessments. Its a place where many of us voluntarily took pay cuts of half our salary during the downturn so that nobody would be let go.


----------



## Conrad

QFT

My experience indicates this is 100% true.



alphaomega said:


> Trenton,
> 
> I think you are fooling yourself with the idea because we are human our intelligence decides the fact what mate we choose. We are a lot more closer to the animal kingdom than most realize. Even our intelligence evolution was based on one whole purpose...live and breed or die young and childiless. We grew smart, because smarts made us the most lethal hunters and survivors in the world. Ever wonder what happened to those stronger, dumber pre-humans in history? Those ones that could overpower us and eat us for dinner? We annihilated them into extinction by building bigger and better weapons and traps!
> 
> As for mating, there is a lot more going on in your lower brain than we realize. To make an analogy based on pure fantasy...you know why Ken and barbie never got married? Even though they are the perceived perfect 10s? Because thier kids would be god awful ugly little sh$ts destined to become lower than low on the evolutionary mating scale. Why? Thier features don't genetically seem to meld well when combined. Lol!
> 
> The same thing is happening in our lower brain right now...with every single person we meet. Our brain will deduce from sight which parters will produce the best offspring with the best chance of them mating successfully based on how your brain thinks your genes will express together. Our noses pick up on pheromones that mix with ours the best, locking together perfectly like two puzzle pieces. And our intelligence will factor in more cognitive matches based on stability, means to protect, good nurturing qualities to help raise our children, and overall mental health of our mate. ALL designed to make cute little babies that will grow up to make thier own cute little babies.
> 
> We like to think we are totally cognitively in control of our choices of mates, but the fact is we are not as in control as we tend to think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Runs like Dog

Most children tend toward the median. Dumb people have smarter kids and visa versa. Ugly people have slightly better looking kids. And so on.


----------



## Trenton

alphaomega said:


> Trenton,
> 
> I think you are fooling yourself with the idea because we are human our intelligence decides the fact what mate we choose. We are a lot more closer to the animal kingdom than most realize. Even our intelligence evolution was based on one whole purpose...live and breed or die young and childiless. We grew smart, because smarts made us the most lethal hunters and survivors in the world. Ever wonder what happened to those stronger, dumber pre-humans in history? Those ones that could overpower us and eat us for dinner? We annihilated them into extinction by building bigger and better weapons and traps!
> 
> As for mating, there is a lot more going on in your lower brain than we realize. To make an analogy based on pure fantasy...you know why Ken and barbie never got married? Even though they are the perceived perfect 10s? Because thier kids would be god awful ugly little sh$ts destined to become lower than low on the evolutionary mating scale. Why? Thier features don't genetically seem to meld well when combined. Lol!
> 
> The same thing is happening in our lower brain right now...with every single person we meet. Our brain will deduce from sight which parters will produce the best offspring with the best chance of them mating successfully based on how your brain thinks your genes will express together. Our noses pick up on pheromones that mix with ours the best, locking together perfectly like two puzzle pieces. And our intelligence will factor in more cognitive matches based on stability, means to protect, good nurturing qualities to help raise our children, and overall mental health of our mate. ALL designed to make cute little babies that will grow up to make thier own cute little babies.
> 
> We like to think we are totally cognitively in control of our choices of mates, but the fact is we are not as in control as we tend to think.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I politely disagree and for many reasons I already pointed out.

The Barbie thing is really funny though. The great thing about our minds is that we can choose to believe anything we want. Read an article, was trying to find it for you, about how Barbie would not be able to menstruate if she were a woman because of her fat/muscle ratio. Perhaps that is why Ken enjoyed screwing the dream but recognized she wouldn't bare the beautiful babes imagined. Although I do believe Barbie dumped Ken on Valentine's Day or so the fantasy goes years back...


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## alphaomega

Lol. I'm sure my daughter will get me up to speed on the relationship if I asked her. Of course, it may include the imaginings of a 6 year old, with descriptive dialog about how the king of the Little PetShops actually stole barbie away from Ken, but since he was abducted by aliens he could not save her. So he had to enlist the help of the lala loopsies queen to vanquish the evil queen of the Little Ponies...who isn't really evil because she had a spell cast on her by the evil Zoobles sorcerer.....and on and on.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> What I'm making a statement of is that men have lost the ability to define themselves. A woman can't tell you how to be a man, as someone once said to to me, "You can't tell a dolphin how to be a dolphin."


I think you're too idealistic about sex roles. Men try to attract women and vice versa. You don't think women naturally enjoy lipstick, miniskirts, and high heels do you? But how much attention would a woman with no makeup in sweats at a singles bar get?

I suggest you get the Disney happy ending out of your head. There is no woman alive who is your perfect match, such that you don't have to put any effort into attracting her. If you want to date a girl, even if she's attracted to you, you have to put some effort in. If you want to marry a girl, even if she's attracted to you, you have to put some effort in. If you want to stay married to your wife, even if she's attracted to you, you have to put some effort in. That's an important lesson that many people have learned the hard way. The earlier you learn it, the happier you will be.


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## luckyman

How does one explain the Alpha-Beta with regard to homosexuals? Are "twinks" beta? What about for lesbian's? 

If a man desires another man is that "alpha" behavior or "beta" behavior? I would say, beta, but within gay couples I have seen both examples and they do not seem to conform to the biological, reproductive, evolutionary factors discussed in so many posts on this thread.


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## alphaomega

I don't think there would be a difference...typically biologically or otherwise. Everyone is wired for attraction the way they are...so you are going to be attracted to whom you are attracted to regardless of sex. Those inner cortex magics would be still doing what the are hard wired to do. You will pick the mate best suited for your genotype, phenotype, and emotional/intelligence requirements.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MisguidedMiscreant

PHTlump said:


> I think you're too idealistic about sex roles. Men try to attract women and vice versa. You don't think women naturally enjoy lipstick, miniskirts, and high heels do you? But how much attention would a woman with no makeup in sweats at a singles bar get?
> 
> I suggest you get the Disney happy ending out of your head. There is no woman alive who is your perfect match, such that you don't have to put any effort into attracting her. If you want to date a girl, even if she's attracted to you, you have to put some effort in. If you want to marry a girl, even if she's attracted to you, you have to put some effort in. If you want to stay married to your wife, even if she's attracted to you, you have to put some effort in. That's an important lesson that many people have learned the hard way. The earlier you learn it, the happier you will be.


You do realize that this has nothing to do with women? Get women out of your head. I really don't care if a woman likes to dress up, it's none of my concern. I'm talking about what men have allowed ourselves to become.





luckyman said:


> How does one explain the Alpha-Beta with regard to homosexuals? Are "twinks" beta? What about for lesbian's?
> 
> If a man desires another man is that "alpha" behavior or "beta" behavior? I would say, beta, but within gay couples I have seen both examples and they do not seem to conform to the biological, reproductive, evolutionary factors discussed in so many posts on this thread.


You're overthinking it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

Pu$$ys. Thats what we've become...mostly not by choice...lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump

Trenton said:


> This idea that women want what they want and that it is some standard that if met will satisfy all or most women is demeaning. The same holds true for man. How depressing that we are supposed to believe that we are as simple as the formulas we do understand and not as complex as the formulas we've yet to discover!


The truth is sometimes demeaning and depressing. That doesn't mean we should reject it. Do you think that Brad Pitt and George Clooney are successful because they are such unique and interesting individuals that they can connect with millions of women on an individual basis? Or is it because their physical appearance and characters in their movies (they don't typically play characters heavy on beta traits) appeal to the vast majority of women? Ditto with men. It's been proven that men in Indo-European cultures typically prefer the same physical attributes in women, such as the waist to hip ratio of 0.70.



Trenton said:


> Now, this is actually directed at the lump poster but, any woman or man worth their weight in gold (using a well loved cliché for ironies sake) will not be manipulated or instantly transformed by a certain set of trite behaviors.


Of course she will. Let's say we have two identical twins name Abel and Barry. Abel is freshly showered. Barry just swam through a sewer to break out of Shawshank. Would your attraction be affected by something as trite as a shower?

What if Abel is a brilliant conversationalist and Barry stares at your shoes, or chest, while stammering a few words at you. Would your attraction be affected by something as trite as social skills?

Recognizing that women are generally attracted to a set of physical and social attributes is not demeaning to women. It just is what it is. It also can help the men who are willing to provide women what they seek. You want conversation, I'll stop talking about the Packers and start talking about a topic you're more interested in. That doesn't change me fundamentally as a man and it isn't some sort of hypnotic trick to get weak-minded women to spread their legs.


Trenton said:


> A challenging man or woman will indeed challenge your behaviors and ideals, strive to make you better and force you to look directly at yourself and what you've been taught -or so I believe-.


You believe that people at singles hangouts are there trying to challenge each others' ideals and force them to reexamine their beliefs? Or do you think they're looking for a basic set of physical attributes and behaviors?


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## PHTlump

MisguidedMiscreant said:


> You do realize that this has nothing to do with women? Get women out of your head. I really don't care if a woman likes to dress up, it's none of my concern. I'm talking about what men have allowed ourselves to become.


I thought you were complaining about the actions necessary to attract women. If you are not interested in attracting women, then why are you resentful of the actions necessary to better attract them?

And, no offense, but you're new to this game. Men trying to attract women is as old as men and women. The game has existed for thousands of generations and will exist for thousands more. You can accept it, or you can be bitter about a truth that you can never hope to change.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

PHTlump said:


> I thought you were complaining about the actions necessary to attract women. If you are not interested in attracting women, then why are you resentful of the actions necessary to better attract them?
> 
> And, no offense, but you're new to this game. Men trying to attract women is as old as men and women. The game has existed for thousands of generations and will exist for thousands more. You can accept it, or you can be bitter about a truth that you can never hope to change.




There's difference between attracting someone rather than being what they want you to be or what you're told you should be instead of who you are or who you want to be.

If there's a woman that likes what I am or what I've become through the hard work I put myself through of my own accord, good, but that process was my choice. I didn't do it because of a woman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bingofuel

I agree with the Thread starter!

It's Horse manure!
All men consider themselves alphas-That's what makes us men. We just use different tactics to get what we want. Nothing works all the time in every situation and, so I feel the whole concept is a bunch of malarky! The badboy /thug will probably become another man's ***** in prison. A boss is "alpha" to his workers, yet rolls over when HIS "boss" is around! The boss's boss may get his ass handed to him at a bar or lose everything in the stock market...and so on. It's all situational- Every man stands tall sometimes, and other times, fate ***** slaps us back into humility. It's the circle of life!


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## Trenton

Lump,

I'm not bitter at all, not even slightly. 

I wonder if you see the irony in your words though. On one hand you cite evolution and biology as your reasoning and on the other hand you say it is impossible for us to evolve.

I am willing to discover, question and challenge. I do not limit my views to long held beliefs or a black and white world. It's just not who I am. Sometimes I am wrong. I can respect that you have a right to your own happiness as well and if this works for you and others so be it. That doesn't mean I have to agree.

Your examples don't back up your case. There is a difference between attraction and believing that there are black and white rules to attraction that always apply.

If the reality (not the truth) is demeaning and depressing then I do not embrace it. It is changeable. There is a quote by John Lennon, "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace."

We create our world and it is certainly a choice.


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## alphaomega

Trenton. The beauty of evolution is that the more generations use their "intelligence" to pick a mate, then after X number of generations mates will be chosen using more cognitive functions. It is starting now, but I still believe we rely more on those basal brain functions right now..lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

alphaomega said:


> Trenton. The beauty of evolution is that the more generations use their "intelligence" to pick a mate, then after X number of generations mates will be chosen using more cognitive functions. It is starting now, but I still believe we rely more on those basal brain functions right now..lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right and TAM is an exercise in exploring relationship education. Strange that instinct is an argument when intelligence is allowing you to debate it, change behaviors and learn...isn't it?


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## PHTlump

Trenton said:


> I wonder if you see the irony in your words though. On one hand you cite evolution and biology as your reasoning and on the other hand you say it is impossible for us to evolve.


That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying it's foolish to discount evolution and biology as being relevant factors for attraction.



Trenton said:


> Your examples don't back up your case. There is a difference between attraction and believing that there are black and white rules to attraction that always apply.


I have never stated that there are black and white rules that always apply. It should go without saying that I'm speaking in generalities. The fact that something is a general rule does not mean that it must be true in every case.



Trenton said:


> If the reality (not the truth) is demeaning and depressing then I do not embrace it. It is changeable. There is a quote by John Lennon, "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace."


Reality is truth. Sometimes, reality is convenient and pretty. Sometimes, it is inconvenient and ugly. That doesn't mean it's not true. Sometimes, reality is changeable. Sometimes, it's not. Even if a singer says that it is. You can choose to be 10 feet tall. But the reality, and thus truth, of your situation is that your choice in the matter is irrelevant.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

What I'm trying to say, men, is take control of your own life. Take control of your own destiny. Go your own way, to help with the way of the world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

PHTlump said:


> That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying it's foolish to discount evolution and biology as being relevant factors for attraction.
> 
> I have never stated that there are black and white rules that always apply. It should go without saying that I'm speaking in generalities. The fact that something is a general rule does not mean that it must be true in every case.
> 
> Reality is truth. Sometimes, reality is convenient and pretty. Sometimes, it is inconvenient and ugly. That doesn't mean it's not true. Sometimes, reality is changeable. Sometimes, it's not. Even if a singer says that it is. You can choose to be 10 feet tall. But the reality, and thus truth, of your situation is that your choice in the matter is irrelevant.


Actually, you're saying that your (and man's biology) leads you to behave as you are and you (and other men/women) can't change that. I disagree.

OK. You never stated that there were black and white rules. I'll give you that. Perhaps you should be looking to where it is not true in every case and thinking...hmm the minority might have something here.

Reality is not truth. I get that you don't like singers. How about geniuses? 

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." -Albert Einstein


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## Deejo

Trenton said:


> I'm not bitter at all, not even slightly.
> 
> I am willing to discover, question and challenge.


How about accept? When you gonna take that for a spin, hmmm? :butterfly:


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## Trenton

Deejo said:


> How about accept? When you gonna take that for a spin, hmmm? :butterfly:


:smthumbup:


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## Halien

bingofuel said:


> I agree with the Thread starter!
> 
> A boss is "alpha" to his workers, yet rolls over when HIS "boss" is around! The boss's boss may get his ass handed to him at a bar or lose everything in the stock market...and so on.


This just makes me cringe, but I represent a very narrow job field. A surefire way to get stuck permantly under the six figure ceiling in most corporations is to roll in front of your boss. They tend to toss this kind of person back into the peanut gallery. In my organization, the only way to get put into the executive path is to display your strongest skills in front of the boss. I only argue with the boss. Never a subordinate. 

Losing everything in the stock market doesn't make you less alpha. Its how you handle it. Like most of us, my personal retirement portfolio took a dive during the downturn. It was sickening to see half the portfolio disappear almost overnight, but that didn't stop me from adding my name to the list of those who were willing to take a pay cut to keep the hourly guys from being laid off. Maybe its not alpha, but the intent was to lead by example.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Bravo Halien. I couldn't agree more.


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## MisguidedMiscreant

Halien, man, more power to you. That was a great gesture for those workers, mother****ers like you deserve to be in high ranking positions. Seriously, it's good to hear that corporate America isn't completely full of *******s.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal

Halien glad to see there are men out there like you. It's called doing the right thing and that is to me very alpha.


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## bingofuel

Halien said:


> Losing everything in the stock market doesn't make you less alpha. Its how you handle it. Like most of us, my personal retirement portfolio took a dive during the downturn. It was sickening to see half the portfolio disappear almost overnight, but that didn't stop me from adding my name to the list of those who were willing to take a pay cut to keep the hourly guys from being laid off. Maybe its not alpha, but the intent was to lead by example.


True.
I guess I was just making the point that karma tends to check in and humble even the most aggressive, even if someone else doesn't.


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