# Am I delusional?



## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Married 11 years this weekend, two children under the age of ten. I’ve been a long-time lurker on this site, and am now posting because I simply cannot make sense of my situation. I've lost perspective and I don't have the emotional or psychological tools to move forward. Apologies for the length of this post. 

About a year ago my marriage starting hitting a rough patch, in large part because my work stress was bleeding into daily life and I wasn’t pulling my weight around the house. I also traveled a lot for work—still do—so I was away for stretches of time. My wife’s resentment about this stress and feeling alone in running the household certainly showed, but I had no idea how deep the unhappiness was. Our love life had fizzled out and there was always an excuse (“I’m having a weird period” seemed to be the go-to) for not being intimate.

One day last November I was on my way to the airport when I realized that I had forgotten my laptop. I managed to re-schedule my flight in the car and suddenly had a morning with the family (it was a school holiday). I was actually in a good mood as I arrived back home. Missing a work dinner that night wasn’t a big deal, and I’d have the morning with my children.

As I walked through the front door, my wife emerged from the kitchen and looked at me with a face I had never seen before—a mix of deep disappointment and disgust. It was such a shock to see that face that I had a hard time hiding how distraught it made me. My wife soon recovered her composure and said that I could join the family on an outing to the local museum. In retrospect, my wife claims that her face reflected the uncertainly of what missing the flight meant. She claims she was fearful of my anger and unhappiness at missing a work flight, a plausible response given my stress level. But that's not what I saw in her face.

The outing to the local museum, which I didn’t know about beforehand, was with a local stay-at-home dad named Tim (name changed). This didn’t really raise any flags with me at the time because my daughter and Tim’s daughter were neighborhood friends and we sometimes had playdates. There did not seem to be any kind of deeper relationship between Tim and my wife, and my wife has since shown me a text to Tim’s wife that originally invited her to the museum outing. It was Tim’s wife who suggested that Tim go instead.

My wife and I limped through the next months in an unhappy status quo. The holidays weren’t great, but they weren’t terrible. Into the new year, however, I noticed a change in my wife. She was suddenly—and uncharacteristically—interested in maintaining her health through running. Mind you she had never done this in our 17-year history together. She had tried running once, but soon gave it up because it hurt her knees. The running made me suspicious because it was out of character, but she said that the new enthusiasm was due to a doctor’s visit that gave her a scare (she did visit the doctor around that time and had recently turned 40).

The turning point for me came a few weeks later when I noticed that my wife was bleaching her teeth. I literally had a moment when my stomach sank and I started blushing involuntarily in response to what I felt this behavior meant. Again, my wife has never bleached her teeth in our long history together. I confronted her about it, and she said that she was simply using a kit that had sat in our bathroom for years (this is true, I had purchased the kit for a job search and never ended up using it). 

At that moment I did the stupid thing and asked her if she was having an affair. Her reaction was volcanic—anger like I have never seen in her. She said that after all our troubles, instead of making things better I was simply coming at her with this “S—.” She didn’t try to console me or disabuse me, she was just angry. In our angry exchanges during this period, my wife said that things "have been bad for a long time." The sentence had a ring of finality to it and I felt the rug being pulled from under me.

From this moment on, I became more suspicious and started looking for patterns. I noticed a lot of what folks would consider the usual stuff, such as having her phone surgically attached and never leaving it. I noticed a lot of Facebook use. I also noticed that during this period my wife became Facebook friends with my neighbor Tim (she was already, btw, friends with Tim’s wife). 

This all came together around March/April of this year. During that same period, my wife had a strange outing alone during the middle of the night to see an eclipse (there was indeed one happening) and just seemed weird about it. She admitted that it was out of character to do this, but she had been enthusing about the eclipse with our kids. She did not, however, wake the kids up at 4 am so they could see it. 

I also had what I perceived to be strange interactions with Tim during this period, though my mind could have been playing tricks on me. For example, on a family outing in our car, we turned onto Tim’s block and saw him weeding out in front of his house with his daughter. As our car approached—very slowly at 10 mph—he quickly turned his back and seemed to ignore us. I find it unlikely that he did not see us, but I suppose it is possible. 

As for my wife’s Facebook friendship with Tim, a connection that she says never even included a message between them, it did prompt Facebook to list Tim at the top of my wife’s suggested chat buddies for three months straight. I mentioned this to my wife, and she admitted it was weird and she couldn’t explain it. I ended up doing some online research which suggested that Facebook could be using geocoded data from its iPhone Messenger app to rank people, meaning that Tim’s location three houses away could be elevating him in the chat ranking. 

By the time I was observing things in Facebook, was in full snoop mode. I checked the phone bill, her texts, her Facebook messages, etc. I left VARs in the house while she was home (she’s a stay-at-home mom). Got some strange mutterings about “giving up what she loved for what she hates” but also got mutterings to the effect of "I didn't do anything." I otherwise found n-o-t-h-i-n-g. But it did prompt her to change all her passwords and lock her phone. Her rationale was that she worried I would do something rash like delete her accounts and reach out to other people posing as her. I said that if she had nothing to hide, she wouldn’t need to lock her technology. 

I also found her diary during this period, and I don't feel proud about looking at it. But in it, she basically decries my behavior and maintains her innocence. I can't really explain this away other than thinking (and maybe this is where delusion sets in) that she is so compartmentalized that she can't event admit to herself that something untoward is happening, or happened. We did also visit a marriage counselor who essentially ignored my perspective and said that my wife didn't do it. The counselor said that my wife's anger was understandable. I wanted to believe her, but clearly I could not/ do not.

We have been fighting on-and-off since spring. Tim’s wife had a baby in August, and I do wonder whether that recommitted him to his marriage. Things have gotten somewhat better in recent months with my wife. My wife still vehemently denies that anything happened and gets very angry when I hint at it. We have occasional bad fights in which she blames me for being crazy, saying “you are doing this to us,” “you have invented this world that does not exist,” and “you are sinking this ship.”

I really want this all to go away. I love my children. I would love to work on my marriage. But in my gut there is something cancerous that keeps me coming back to the possibility of infidelity. It makes any kind of real reconciliation impossible, or fake. But I also have the deep down worry that this is a paranoid universe I have constructed. Or even if it is not, that I will never, never know the truth.

Please help.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Although there is obviously something wrong, the only big red flag here for cheating (and it is a huge one) is the digital privacy. Married people don't get to hide their digital lives from each other.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

*About a year ago my marriage starting hitting a rough patch, in large part because my work stress was bleeding into daily life and I wasn’t pulling my weight around the house. I also traveled a lot for work—still do—so I was away for stretches of time. My wife’s resentment about this stress and feeling alone in running the household certainly showed, but I had no idea how deep the unhappiness was.*

What has been done to resolve the above?

Did your counselor have any advice on how to stop the paranoia? Maybe some individual sessions? do you have any OCD issues? You are going to kill your marriage if you keep this up and if you don't work on the issues that are present (like the above that I quoted)


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Have you been cheated on in the past? (By her or others?)


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy--I left the job causing me so much stress and have been doing much more to support the household. My wife appreciates it, but also now downplays my efforts. 

LosingHim--I've been cheated on in the past by a girlfriend, though that was decades ago. I have to say, however, that the gut feeling then was similar to the gut feeling now.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Hmm. Definitely some red flags in there.

_And then there's your gut._

Anger is a somewhat common reaction when asked about/accused of an affair... _and that's whether the accused is guilty or not._

The changes in behavior -- ESPECIALLY changing passwords -- are a big concern.

And disappearing at 4 am to look at an eclipse?

Yeah.

Right.

Now for you...

On average, how many hours have you been putting in at work each week over the course of the past year?

How often do you travel for work? What's your average time spent away from home when you do travel for work?

Does your wife work outside the home? (Either you didn't mention that or I just didn't see it.)

ETA: As far as using a VAR goes, you might have to get a bit sneaky. For example, if you had one in her car, and you just happened to know that she was out driving AND that Tim wasn't at home, you could call her and start mentioning some of your concerns. Mention Tim specifically. Say something like "I dunno... I feel like I need to talk with him. I feel like some boundaries are being over-stepped. I'm going to go over there this afternoon." ...

...and then WAIT.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Gus--My work day was somewhat predictable, I didn't have crazy hours. I just have the kind of work where I need to work all the time, often late into the night and during weekends.

When traveling, I was usually gone 2-3 days at a time. At the highest volume of travel, I was gone some period during every week.

My wife does not work outside the home.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

You need to nip that secrecy [email protected] in the bud. Get the phone, email, social media passwords. Take the phone and restore deleted text. There is software for that. Get a VAR in her car.

I'm going to be honest,you sound like quite a doormat. It's time to stop being polite and nice. The nicer you are to your wife, the more she looses respect for you. Also you need to put this POS on notice that interactions are between the wives or through you. 

She's taking care of her appearance to attract POS. You need to up your game as well. To many husbands let themselves go. Starting today, you embark on a personal renovation. Hit the gym HARD. Up your overall look. (clothes, hair, hygiene, etc) 

Also, have you been letting her know through words & actions that you love her? helping with chores & kids? Date night? Occasional surprise gifts? I ask because you have to make sure you're doing your part. Don't let some douche bust a move on your wife and undermine your family.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

Don't keep bringing your gut feeling up to her unless you have proof she is cheating/has cheated. Even if she did cheat she isn't going to admit it and it just starts arguments. Spend that time working on your marriage. Maybe go to counseling. The better your marriage is the less chance there is she or you will have an affair.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

generico said:


> SlowlyGoingCrazy--I left the job causing me so much stress and have been doing much more to support the household. My wife appreciates it, but also now downplays my efforts.


This is not cheating related but maybe I can shed some light on how your wife may be feeling in this area. 

When I was full of resentment for kind of similar reasons it was hard for me to not downplay any efforts made. Honestly what was going through my head was "Congratulations on finally actually doing what you should have been doing years ago" "Oh, you did the dishes? What do you want a F-ing parade?!"

I felt like he wanted to be rewarded for simply doing the bare minimums or like he was helping ME out by doing them. If he wanted recognition for the couple months he helped out it was like - where the hell is mine for the YEARS I did it all myself? Or if he said "I did the sweeping for you" Excuse me? For me? You did the sweeping because you're a grown man who needs to help clean the home he lives in. 

I'm not saying it's right but it's hard to get out of that resentment rut. 
I'll suggest marriage builders for you. 

Start spending 15+ hours a week of productive alone time together.
Meet her specific emotional needs consistently 
It might take a while but eventually she will feel loved and love again and when she does, it will be a lot easier to let go of the resentments.


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## tpdallas (Aug 28, 2015)

I don't think I can be with a partner where I feel I have to lock my phone for fear he will pose as me.

I mean really?!?!?


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

This nails it. Totally.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> This is not cheating related but maybe I can shed some light on how your wife may be feeling in this area.
> 
> When I was full of resentment for kind of similar reasons it was hard for me to not downplay any efforts made. Honestly what was going through my head was "Congratulations on finally actually doing what you should have been doing years ago" "Oh, you did the dishes? What do you want a F-ing parade?!"
> 
> ...


Should he be equally resentful that he's the sole financial provider for their family?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

tpdallas said:


> I don't think I can be with a partner where I feel I have to lock my phone for fear he will pose as me.
> 
> I mean really?!?!?


Word.

Lamest excuse ever.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Re tpdallas: I would never do anything like this and understood her claims as an exaggerated justification for locking down her accounts.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

generico said:


> Re tpdallas: I would never do anything like this and understood her claims as an exaggerated justification for locking down her accounts.


You understood correctly.

ETA: You may have misunderstood the intent behind @tpdallas's reply. If not then I did -- I read the first half of it as being sarcastic.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

technovelist said:


> Although there is obviously something wrong, the only big red flag here for cheating (and it is a huge one) is the digital privacy. Married people don't get to hide their digital lives from each other.


 _I checked the phone bill, her texts, her Facebook messages, etc. I left VARs in the house. I otherwise found n-o-t-h-i-n-g. But it did prompt her to change all her passwords and lock her phone. Her rationale was that she worried I would do something rash like delete her accounts and reach out to other people posing as her._

so, it seems she let him have full reign at first, and only locked him out after he saw everything and still didn't trust her after finding nothing. That's not hiding, and that's not digital privacy. Hell, he read her diary. She doesn't seem to have any kind of privacy.

Isn't rule #1 don't confront until you have proof?


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## dignityhonorpride (Jan 2, 2014)

You've done an awful lot of spying and snooping, which is FINE, I've done it myself (my husband cheated on me), but you've been looking for months and have no evidence. Go ahead and try Gus' suggestion, but idk -- I think you're so convinced that she's cheating that you may be overlooking something else. 

In particular, if I wasn't cheating but was unhappy and unfulfilled in my marriage and pulling away from my husband, and he responded to that by insisting I was cheating and searching for evidence in my phone and email and diary, I would probably push back. I don't have a password on my phone but I also don't get accused of cheating multiple times despite evidence to the contrary. 

Keep your guard up of course but I think you both need IC and, eventually, MC.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Have you read the evidence gathering thread?

Its a huge mistake to confront without proof. Its a bigger mistake to keep accusing. In doing so you will make her a professional counter spy.

She may have even found your vars. 

Read the mmslp book linked to below. Cheating or not your behavior is relationship suicide. You need to improve your game plan.

Does she synch her phone to the computer?


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

re dignityhonorpride: thanks for your honest and sincere comments...


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Should he be equally resentful that he's the sole financial provider for their family?


Where did you read he is resentful that he is the sole financial provider? If he agrees that it's best she stay home with their children then he has no reason to be resentful. If he wants her to work because he can't afford to support the family and she refuses that's another story.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

sixty-eight said:


> _I checked the phone bill, her texts, her Facebook messages, etc. I left VARs in the house. I otherwise found n-o-t-h-i-n-g. But it did prompt her to change all her passwords and lock her phone. Her rationale was that she worried I would do something rash like delete her accounts and reach out to other people posing as her._
> 
> so, it seems she let him have full reign at first, and only locked him out after he saw everything and still didn't trust her after finding nothing. That's not hiding, and that's not digital privacy. Hell, he read her diary. She doesn't seem to have any kind of privacy.
> 
> *Isn't rule #1 don't confront until you have proof?*


Typically, yes. Some are better at bluffing than others, though.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

GusPolinski said:


> Should he be equally resentful that he's the sole financial provider for their family?


If it interferes with meeting his emotional needs, spending enough quality time together, and/or he has expressed that it has become a problem then sure. 

Whether you think it's justified or not, she is resentful and focusing on an affair that he has no proof of instead of actively working to fix the marriage is going to kill them.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Happilymarried25 said:


> *Where did you read he is resentful that he is the sole financial provider?* If he agrees that it's best she stay home with their children then he has no reason to be resentful. If he wants her to work because he can't afford to support the family and she refuses that's another story.


I didn't.

And that was my point.


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## Popcorn2015 (Sep 10, 2015)

Happilymarried25 said:


> Where did you read he is resentful that he is the sole financial provider? If he agrees that it's best she stay home with their children then he has no reason to be resentful. If he wants her to work because he can't afford to support the family and she refuses that's another story.


OP didn't say exactly how old his kids are, just under 10. If they are in school, what is his wife doing for those six-seven hours each day? No, I don't mean she's automatically spending the time cheating on him, but if he spends 40-70 hours/week working while she's watching soap operas, it's hardly fair for her to complain that he isn't doing "his share" of household chores.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

You may never know what happened that comet watching night. He may have hit it and backed away when his wife became pregnant out of guilt. short of a lie detector, you may never know.
I'm a believer in trust your gut but if there is no evidence, then at sometime you need to maybe lay low on the digging and concentrate on being a better husband. 

I recommend you get "Married Man Sex Life guide" and "Love Language" books. They can guide you in becoming a better husband.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

OK, so if there is anything going on w/ the neighbor, it's going to be awfully difficult for you to catch it since they're both SAH parents. Hell, they could be spending _hours_ together every day and you'd never know it.

But here's the thing... _it is possible_ that there's nothing going on. In fact, most would say that -- in the absence of any proof to the contrary -- you pretty much HAVE to assume that she's not cheating. Personally I think you're seeing a number of red flags, and I know (BELIEVE ME) that it's hard to talk yourself down from that... 

...but it's not like you HAVEN'T been looking.

You've deployed VARs and not found anything.

You've checked the phone bills and haven't found anything.

You read her diary and didn't find anything there. (Who keeps a diary these days? Weird.)

At some point, you _have_ to lay down your arms and armor, else you're going to drive yourself insane. Plus, if she _isn't_ cheating, you're going to do irreparable damage to your marriage.

Now... having said all that...

If you're going to continue looking then you need to change up your strategy a bit. As for what that should entail...? I couldn't really say w/o knowing more about what you have and haven't done.

Maybe suggest that the two of you resume marriage counseling. You should also insist that she re-commit to full transparency. After all, whether your concerns are justified or not, she can't reasonably expect that her unwillingness to be transparent w/ her e-mail, social media, and electronic devices is going to do anything other than amplify and aggravate your concerns.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

These are helpful responses...thanks so much!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Could you explain how she justified locking down her devices? Being afraid her spouse would use them to pretend to be her and do what exactly? This is a new one.

I would also suggest a different counselor. Is your current counselor female?


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

re Chaparral: She claimed she "just couldn't be sure what you would do." The counselor was female.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

A few other details:

The counselor said that my wife is poor communicator, which I agree with. 

My wife is generally incapable of saying she is sorry for anything. In 17 years she has apologized only twice, and unwillingly. This is a reason I generally don't trust her claims of innocence. 

I was in the process of looking for a new job earlier this year. I was under extreme stress because of politics at work, and was essentially being forced out of my job. My wife knew this, but said that my complaints were the same-old, same-old and didn't want to hear it anymore. I was left to navigate the nightmare alone, but did end up finding a new position. The situation was extra stressful because we just bought a house late last year and I felt that keeping it was entirely on my shoulders.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Gen here's the thing my man. Just because this chick married you doesn't necessarily make her a wife. Think about it like this Dawg. Look at all the married women in your town as making up a big circle. Look as all the women that are a "wife" as making up a much smaller circle inside the big circle. Your old lady is not in the smaller circle. The spouses of the guys you see around town with a smile on their face usually are.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Both unhappy. Why not just let her go?


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## sparrow555 (Jun 27, 2015)

I do not think there is strong evidence of an affair. If it is an affair, it looks like it was something shortlived and it ended it for unknown reasons. So you probably will not find evidence if you keep snooping. 

The only concern here is your own mental well being. Your wife is in an un-enviable position if she did not cheat. She cannot prove that she did not cheat. You will miserable because you will assume that you did not find the evidence for the affair, not that she did not cheat. Then there is your gut screaming at you that there is something wrong with the situation.

You might have to take a leap of faith in either direction or you two will remain absolutely miserable.


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## darkwing (Jan 2, 2014)

Popcorn2015 said:


> OP didn't say exactly how old his kids are, just under 10. If they are in school, what is his wife doing for those six-seven hours each day? No, I don't mean she's automatically spending the time cheating on him, but if he spends 40-70 hours/week working while she's watching soap operas, it's hardly fair for her to complain that he isn't doing "his share" of household chores.



Just because a woman is not "working", it doesn't mean she is watching tv all day. Caring for kids is a big job, not to mention all the house chorus. 

If OP is not spending time at home, then he need a different job. Working is not an excuse. Your top priority is your family. Children need their parents more than toys and vacation. Find another job that is less demanding and allow you to spend more time with family.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

generico said:


> A few other details:
> 
> The counselor said that my wife is poor communicator, which I agree with.
> 
> ...


Regardless of cheating, I would say that you and your wife are in a very unhappy marriage, and if counseling cannot make it better then ending it should be considered. Sometimes two people aren't right for each other, and she doesn't seem to concerned about how her attitude has been. I think you need to make these things entirely clear to her in the presence of a marriage counselor, and see what how she reacts. If she basically tells you to f--k off or blames you for all of it, then well. . .


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

A lot of women go thru this at around 40. They start to revaluate their lives. They see their youth and perceived beauty slipping away. They start exercising whitening teeth, they get consumed with losing weight. Their hormones start changing getting ready to start menopause. They get very emotional and standoffish. She may be cheating, but maybe not. The locked cell phone is a red flag though. I would suggest you back off give her some space, but keep your eyes open at the same time.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Thanks for the last few posts, all very reasonable assessments of what is going on. In my own mind, I'm simply not sure. I want to take the leap of faith and start building anew, but I worry about being a chump. Then I think back to all of the weird behavior, which does represent a pattern that had not existed earlier in our marriage. 

For example, in May of this year I encountered my wife about to leave for a Sat run and thought sure I saw her wearing eye makeup. I asked her about it, she got enraged, and then she fled immediately to the bathroom. My mind could only think that she was wiping off the makeup, but she denies to this day that there was makeup and calls me crazy. What do I make of that? It's stuff like this that nags at me.

She seems to want to improve the marriage now, but I'm worried about building a Potemkin Village.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

generico said:


> Thanks for the last few posts, all very reasonable assessments of what is going on. In my own mind, I'm simply not sure. I want to take the leap of faith and start building anew, but I worry about being a chump. Then I think back to all of the weird behavior, which does represent a pattern that had not existed earlier in our marriage.
> 
> For example, in May of this year I encountered my wife about to leave for a Sat run and thought sure I saw her wearing eye makeup. I asked her about it, she got enraged, and then she fled immediately to the bathroom. My mind could only think that she was wiping off the makeup, but she denies to this day that there was makeup and calls me crazy. What do I make of that? It's stuff like this that nags at me.
> 
> She seems to want to improve the marriage now, but I'm worried about building a Potemkin Village.


Can you imagine being under a microscope like this for so long? Every single one of your moves being questioned over and over again? Why would anyone feel safe to open up and be vulnerable in a situation like this?
IMO You need to go to IC to discuss your obsessive thinking and paranoia. It would go a long way in fixing your marriage and showing her she can be safe with you.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Slowly: My wife could have shut me down in a second by showing a little compassion during my work crisis and simply talking to me about our relationship. She did neither. She wanted to steep in self pity and make me the villain. She checked out of the relationship, was emotionally absent for months, and reacted with a volcanic rage I have never seen when confronted about the possibility of infidelity. This freaked me out and it was all before I began looking obsessively for signals. I have not lived our 17-year relationship as a snoop and a detective. Not at all.

So though I appreciate your comments, I wouldn't chalk this situation up to my obsession alone. My wife is equally the architect of this situation.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

generico said:


> Slowly: My wife could have shut me down in a second by showing a little compassion during my work crisis and simply talking to me about our relationship. She did neither. She wanted to steep in self pity and make me the villain. She checked out of the relationship, was emotionally absent for months, and reacted with a volcanic rage I have never seen when confronted about the possibility of infidelity. This freaked me out and it was all before I began looking obsessively for signals. I have not lived our 17-year relationship as a snoop and a detective. Not at all.
> 
> So though I appreciate your comments, I wouldn't chalk this situation up to my obsession alone. My wife is equally the architect of this situation.


And the fact that you began obsessively looking for signs of cheating instead of looking at yourself and what you have done to create the situation you were in is very telling. 

You stopped meeting her needs so she shut down and checked out. 
Then instead of owning up to that you try to find a scapegoat, a way to blame her and dismiss her very real and valid feelings. 

Of course she's pissed. When I try to tell my husband how I feel and he automatically thinks I'm having an affair (which he has done) it tells me he's not listening to me, he's refusing to look at himself and what he's done to cause this. 

You doing some digging to verify was fine, you crossed the line a long time ago and she is no longer equally to blame for this mess. You're actions and constant questioning of her is bordering on abusive. You need to get help for that regardless of if you stay married or not. You don't get to treat your wife like she's guilty and a constant suspect in her own home. 

That would make pretty much anyone shut down and stop trusting you enough to be open with you. You are not a safe person for her right now.

You created this mess and continue to make it worse and blame it all on her because of something she never did. Stop acting like a victim and start taking responsibility for the damage you have done here. 
You're so obsessed with every little detail, last may she looked like she had eye make-up on, just stop. Look at yourself and every one of YOUR actions that have pushed her away and lost her trust and love.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I'll put this here for you as well because it fits you along with some others I have seen. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> *when do you decide to call it a false alarm?*
> 
> I am curious about this in general. If a guy checks and finds no evidence of an affair, how is it productive to continue to be paranoid and searching for months, sometimes years on end? At what point does the posters switch to "start looking at other things, it's not an affair"
> 
> ...


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Can you imagine being under a microscope like this for so long? Every single one of your moves being questioned over and over again? Why would anyone feel safe to open up and be vulnerable in a situation like this?
> IMO You need to go to IC to discuss your obsessive thinking and paranoia. It would go a long way in fixing your marriage and showing her she can be safe with you.





SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> And the fact that you began obsessively looking for signs of cheating instead of looking at yourself and what you have done to create the situation you were in is very telling.
> 
> You stopped meeting her needs so she shut down and checked out.
> Then instead of owning up to that you try to find a scapegoat, a way to blame her and dismiss her very real and valid feelings.
> ...





SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I'll put this here for you as well because it fits you along with some others I have seen.


 @generico, it's worth noting that the validity of all of ^this^ is predicated upon the notion that a) your wife _isn't_ cheating, and b) that you are therefore simply being paranoid w/o justification.

Again, I think you're dealing w/ a number of red flags. Due to some early fumbles, though, your wife is keen to the fact that you're onto her. Personally, I'd continue to follow up, _but you need to change up your game plan._

Read through weightlifter's "Standard Evidence Post" thread here in the CWI forum, paying especially close attention to the "EYES OPEN, MOUTH SHUT" portion.

Now, here's the counter-intuitive portion of what I'm going to suggest...

Work to improve your marriage. Insist that your wife do the same. Marriage counseling. Transparency. All of it.

From both of you.

Anyway, back to chores for now.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Gus- people do things every day that could be a sign of cheating. It doesn't mean anything. He checked, it's time for him to stop now before he gets worse and falls further into abusive and controlling. No more searching for cheating. No more thinking of cheating. 

Don't encourage that kind of behavior. It's not healthy and it's not ok for a marriage and IMO it's not ok to fuel his unhealthy obsessive behavior by telling him to continue to search. If he can't stop himself or get help then he needs to just leave. There is no use in trying to fix anything if he can't get passed his paranoia and obsessions.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> @generico, it's worth noting that the validity of all of ^this^ is predicated upon the fact that your wife _isn't_ cheating, and that you are indeed simply being paranoid w/o justification.
> 
> Again, I think you're dealing w/ a number of red flags. Due to some early fumbles, though, your wife is keen to the fact that you're onto her. Personally, I'd continue to follow up, _but you need to change up your game plan._
> 
> ...


Indeed, I agree with most everything here. Your wife's behavior is indicative of someone who wants to look attractive to someone, whether it's a particular person or to the opposite sex in general. 

Quit being openly suspicious. Tell her, as GusP said, that you two need to work on your relationship and that you are willing to do so. Tell her that you want to save your marriage and you're worried that it's falling apart. Her reaction to that will tell you a lot. If she's nothing but blame or if she is totally unwilling then that's that. Then you start to make plans accordingly. In any case do not bring up an affair.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

generico said:


> I was under extreme stress because of politics at work, and was essentially being forced out of my job. My wife knew this, but said that my complaints were the same-old, same-old and didn't want to hear it anymore. I was left to navigate the nightmare alone


 Cheating or no cheating, the fact that she was not there for you when you when you were fighting to put food on the family table, would be enough for me to consider ending the marriage. Most marriages end for reasons other than cheating. Your wife is giving you plenty of these other reasons.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

PreRaphaelite said:


> Indeed, I agree with most everything here. Your wife's behavior is indicative of someone who wants to look attractive to someone, whether it's a particular person or to the opposite sex in general.


I hope you feel the same way about every single man who decides to start hitting the gym at 40 or cares about how they look but that actually gets recommended to men. I guess it's better if us wives just let ourselves go, but then we get accused of not caring then too. Can't win.
Likely she's preparing herself to possibly leave him because of his behavior and, just like men are told to do, started focusing on herself and her own needs. 
When my needs weren't being met I sat and did nothing being mad for a while and then said f-it, I'm doing some nice things for myself then. Little things that make you feel pretty can go a long way in your overall self esteem and feeling good about yourself. Sometimes I will get all done up just to go to the store. Why? I wanted to. It makes me feel good about myself. I couldn't care less if any men notice. It's for me. I do want my husband to notice so if he does it's a bonus.

But if you get met with "Why are you wearing make-up? You're meeting someone aren't you?!! Hey, you know 6 months ago when you were going out the door, I saw make-up on you so I know there's something going on!!" instead of "Wow, you look hot! Are you wearing new eye shadow?" Well, why would anyone want to be vulnerable and open with that?

OP- if your going to her to ask to fix the relationship has any chance of working you have to be open to telling her you will get help for the paranoia and stop the accusations 100%.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I hope you feel the same way about every single man who decides to start hitting the gym at 40 or cares about how they look but that actually gets recommended to men. I guess it's better if us wives just let ourselves go, but then we get accused of not caring then too. Can't win.
> Likely she's preparing herself to possibly leave him because of his behavior and, just like men are told to do, started focusing on herself and her own needs.
> When my needs weren't being met I sat and did nothing being mad for a while and then said f-it, I'm doing some nice things for myself then. Little things that make you feel pretty can go a long way in your overall self esteem and feeling good about yourself. Sometimes I will get all done up just to go to the store. Why? I wanted to. It makes me feel good about myself. I couldn't care less if any men notice. It's for me. I do want my husband to notice so if he does it's a bonus.
> 
> ...


Well she obviously isn't looking better for her husband is she? She's looking better _despite_ her husband is what it sounds like, so your diagnosis, that she's getting ready to leave him, is probably correct. It sounds like, as you say, she could care less if her husband noticed and would prefer that he not notice.


Oh, and when he needed her support, his wife basically told him to f--k off. In short, she has put a a stone wall between herself and her husband and whether its anger, resentment or someone else, she's treating him like shyte. Calling him paranoid is a bit over the top, as if he has no reason to have doubts. if my wife were acting this way I'd for sure ask her what the hell is going on. 

Rather than heaping all the blame on him, I'd say that something about her actions and behavior are not right, and not simply because he provoked her.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

About a year ago my marriage starting hitting a rough patch, in large part because my work stress was bleeding into daily life and I wasn’t pulling my weight around the house. I also traveled a lot for work—still do—so I was away for stretches of time. My wife’s resentment about this stress and feeling alone in running the household certainly showed, but I had no idea how deep the unhappiness was.

She was also upset with his lack of support, with him being gone and not being her partner. It goes both ways. There was nothing wrong with him doing his initial digging, it's when it continues for a year, when he drills her and treats her as a suspect and monitors her every move that it becomes a problem, controlling and bordering on abusive. 

He should have checked, found no proof of cheating and moved on to other reasons why the marriage is failing - like the lack of time together and emotional needs not being met. Then focused on that. 

He's stuck in an unhealthy obsession mode and egging him on about how she might have still cheated, keep checking, VAR her again isn't doing him or her any good. He needs help to fix his issues before it becomes and even more toxic and abusive situation, not encouragement. 

Read this thread about how this kind of thinking feels for the other spouse 
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/300330-my-husband.html


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

I feel like everyone is a little bit on target here, but to be clear my behavior has been in response to some pretty radical changes in my wife's behavior. These changes, as suggested, were likely in response to her frustration with me. I've admitted that. But they were nonetheless radical and sudden changes that happened in quick succession. This is someone I have known for 17 years. And when I tried to bring them up, even before any kind of accusation, I was met with a creepy and unfamiliar distance. I don't consider myself a jealous or insecure person, and our marriage has not at all been characterized by that. I am hearing, however, that my constant vigilance will make it almost impossible for us to reconcile or even to get the truth. So I appreciate the comments and I plan to work on my marriage.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

it's like this:
sure, she could be having an affair. anyone could always be having an affair.

you can keep digging, treating the affair like a foregone conclusion. She will either 1) leave you for that kind of controlling suspicious behavior or 2) leave you for an actual AP. Either way, the marriage is over. 

if you want the marriage to work, it seems you only have one option. Figure out how to trust her enough to work on the marriage together.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Re sixty-eight: This makes a lot of sense and is essentially where I came out. The digging behavior, however, is driven by a deep need to know. Because if the answer is yes, and I've been lied to for a year, then the marriage is essentially over (I think). So trying to get this information is really trying to get some sort of clarity for the next phase of my life. But the digging has to date not worked, and the dynamic it has spawned is causing a lot of destruction.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Anything suspicious on the phone bill? It's way to check without causing suspicion.

Go online it usually lists calls, texts etc for the last year


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Re Marc: Yes, didn't find anything. Though my wife was clearly freaked out about looking. My thought was that problematic texts could have been sent by iMessage, meaning that they would not show up on the bill. I did notice some strange patterns in data use, which made me think that Facebook messenger or similar apps were in frequent use. But never found anything, so--as with everything else--could be that nothing is there.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Probably nothing, but how do you remember your wife maintaining her innocence in her diary?

As Gus mentioned, who keeps a diary these days? Did she always keep a diary? Usually they follow the format of an internal dialogue, don't they? You don't need to protest your innocence to yourself. And there might be the odd unguarded comment as it's for your eyes only. Unless it wasn't.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

How are you at downloading phone info?

Deleted texts are recoverable. Does she back up her phone?


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Re azteca: She's kept a diary on and off (mostly off) for some time, so I don't think it exists as a distractor. I don't remember the language, but if it was contrived it was a well done ploy.

Re Marc: I don't know if she backs up (don't think so), and I have not tried to download anything.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

generico said:


> A few other details:
> 
> My wife is generally incapable of saying she is sorry for anything. In 17 years she has apologized only twice, and unwillingly. This is a reason I generally don't trust her claims of innocence.
> 
> I was in the process of looking for a new job earlier this year. I was under extreme stress because of politics at work, and was essentially being forced out of my job. My wife knew this, but said that my complaints were the same-old, same-old and didn't want to hear it anymore. I was left to navigate the nightmare alone, but did end up finding a new position. The situation was extra stressful because we just bought a house late last year and I felt that keeping it was entirely on my shoulders.


Her behavior is very troubling. First, she cannot apologize for anything. She apologized only twice in your 17 years of marriage? This is definitely a record.

Career woman here, 35 years married (first time for both of us), and been the breadwinner for 25 years. I was in a very similar situation as where you were. I'm however a university professor, so I could fight through established policies. This was a very hard fight. I definitely needed to lean on my husband for both emotional and physical needs. My career was on the line. It was a battle of life and death for my adversary and I as the loser must go. I prevailed. My husband was my rock throughout my ordeal. 

Your wife's behavior is truly unexcusable as you are putting a roof over her head, put food on the table, and provided for the medical and educational needs of your family. I have no sympathy for entitled princesses as your wife. She is unhappy and will continue to be. Let her go and see an attorney to protect your rights. I don't think that your marriage will ever be good. Sorry you are here.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

It does seem that you are being paranoid given that you have not found any evidence.

However, I am a strong believer in gut instinct. If your gut is telling you something is wrong, then it is.

Maybe try to stop accusing, but keep your eyes and ears open.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I hope you feel the same way about every single man who decides to start hitting the gym at 40 or cares about how they look but that actually gets recommended to men. I guess it's better if us wives just let ourselves go, but then we get accused of not caring then too. Can't win.
> Likely she's preparing herself to possibly leave him because of his behavior and, just like men are told to do, started focusing on herself and her own needs.
> When my needs weren't being met I sat and did nothing being mad for a while and then said f-it, I'm doing some nice things for myself then. Little things that make you feel pretty can go a long way in your overall self esteem and feeling good about yourself. Sometimes I will get all done up just to go to the store. Why? I wanted to. It makes me feel good about myself. I couldn't care less if any men notice. It's for me. I do want my husband to notice so if he does it's a bonus.
> 
> ...


You may have hit on something. However, the odds, when someone comes here with this story, are 99 out of 100 times there is another man/men in the woodpile.

The advice to work on the marriage with the spouse, shut up about suspicions, and do the proper detective work is right on. Its either that or go directly to divorce.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Folks that can't apologize have mental issues and too issues. Google is your friend.


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> Probably nothing, but how do you remember your wife maintaining her innocence in her diary?
> 
> As Gus mentioned, who keeps a diary these days? Did she always keep a diary? Usually they follow the format of an internal dialogue, don't they? You don't need to protest your innocence to yourself. And there might be the odd unguarded comment as it's for your eyes only. Unless it wasn't.


I agree


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## convert (Oct 4, 2013)

generico said:


> Re azteca: She's kept a diary on and off (mostly off) for some time, so I don't think it exists as a distractor. I don't remember the language, but if it was contrived it was a well done ploy.
> 
> Re Marc: I don't know if she backs up (don't think so), *and I have not tried to download anything*.


maybe you should recover any and all deleted texts.

WITHOUT YOUR WIFE KNOWING.

do this ASAP before memory gets overridden.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

generico said:


> Re azteca: She's kept a diary on and off (mostly off) for some time, so I don't think it exists as a distractor. I don't remember the language, but if it was contrived it was a well done ploy.
> 
> Re Marc: I don't know if she backs up (don't think so), and I have not tried to download anything.


The whole diary thing reads like it was written for your eyes, to throw you off. You need to get deleted text but being that POS was a neighbor, they didn't actually need to text.

Like I said earlier, work on being the husband you should have been. If evidence surfaces, then all bets are off.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

tpdallas said:


> I don't think I can be with a partner where I feel I have to lock my phone for fear he will pose as me.
> 
> I mean really?!?!?


Now there's your actual example of paranoia, right there!

You know, that sounds like the kind of BS a 'special friend' might fill someone's head with. ..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> You know, that sounds like the kind of BS a 'special friend' might fill someone's head with.


 Cheaters tend to value their right to privacy over valuing their marriage vows. Just saying.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Can't you just picture a toxic friend or a lover saying: "Be careful! If your husband has your passwords he could pretend to be you and do all sorts of baaaaad things!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

generico said:


> Re Marc: Yes, didn't find anything. Though my wife was clearly freaked out about looking. My thought was that problematic texts could have been sent by iMessage, meaning that they would not show up on the bill. *I did notice some strange patterns in data use*, which made me think that Facebook messenger or similar apps were in frequent use. But never found anything, so--as with everything else--could be that nothing is there.


You're not a cheater. Would you even know what you're looking for?

1. Dedicated cheating apps - Password protected, don't even show up on your home screen, or disguised as something innocuous.

2. Words with friends - A game with a chat function, which you won't know about if you don't play. Delete it at the end of the day before spouse gets home and all record of chats will be erased along with it. Download in the morning and go again.

3. Hide in plain sight apps like Skype - Useful for chatting with grandma. But if you delete a contact all records of your conversation and vids go along with. Accept contact request to carry on the next morning.

So, that's three ways off the top of my head which would only register as increased data usage. And totally untraceable. 

The locked phone and the feeble reason given as to why, is still the biggest red-flag you had. In combination with the withdrawal, the privacy, the utter selfishness of a Stay-At-Home-Mum neglecting your emotional needs, the resentment... yeah it looks like you _did_ have a problem on your hands.

But playing "what if" is no way to live going forward. If you're both committed to building a better marriage together, that might be the best way to invest your time and energy.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

I will admit that the reason for locking the phone seemed ridiculous.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

It's highly possible that just being around Tim made her feel alive and sexy in a way that she has not felt in your marriage for along time. She may have fantasized and even flirted a bit, which spurred the changes in her. It does not mean she had a PA or even an EA. Your getting suspicious may have actually stopped any action on her part, as she may have gotten the wake up call before anything at all happened. I think that is quite common especially in troubled marriages and when spouse's are in a time of asking themselves, is this it - Is this all my life is and will be? 

With all the snooping you have done, and still not a shred of evidence - I think it's time to move on and let it go. Your goal needs to be that she continues all that strange behavior because YOU make her feel alive and sexy. Instead of worrying about affair fallout strategies, you need to switch to affair proof strategies instead.


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## G.J. (Nov 4, 2014)

Check her deleted FB txt 
she may not have completly deleted them
If you can get into her FB page go to security or settings and click on start my archive 
It will send all deleted txt etc in a RAR format to her email account....so make sure you have her email password as well
Simply unrar and hopefully you will get all information she has delered


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## Rubicon (Jan 13, 2014)

OP, I am seeing a pattern of you letting your wife know about every bit of digging you have done.

I mean really, without you telling her how did she know you looked at the phone bill?

Do you think it is even remotely possible she is locking things down because you can't seem to stop coming at her with every irrelevant thing you can find.

IF that's the case, and I understand it may not be, then you are essentially directly responsible for her changes in behaviour as well as the red flags you now see because of it and then you are using these self created red flags to further justify persecuting her more.

I agree that she indeed looks like she is on the way out the door, affair or not. Your actions are encouraging this in either case. 

I get that you feel you must know but it looks like you will only be satisfied if you discover she is cheating and until you get THAT answer, you are going to continue wrecking your marriage and very likely driving her into an affair she is not in now.

Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.


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## Dycedarg (Apr 17, 2014)

OP, I'm very sorry. There is one plain and simple fact at play here.

There are a very, very limited number of explanations for people locking down their phones and/or computers. 

None of them are good. 

I would not be surprised in the slightest if she was cheating on you.


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## BrokenLady (Jan 19, 2015)

I've been with my H for 25 years. I've NEVER had a password on anything. I trusted him & loved him completely.

I'm now writing on my password protected iPad! 

I discovered earlier this year that my H was snooping, reading my private journal etc. It wasn't the invasion of privacy...it was the fact that he could read my heart wrenching descriptions of how I felt, I even wanted to take my own life at one point & he couldn't care less!

In my situation it was because of his A. I'm just saying locking your computer can be a rational response to discovering your H reading your private things...


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

BrokenLady said:


> I've been with my H for 25 years. I've NEVER had a password on anything. I trusted him & loved him completely.
> 
> I'm now writing on my password protected iPad!
> 
> ...



I can understand locking things down for this reason.
H is free to look at my stuff. It's always open, he has checked every now and then and I think it's being avoidant of the real issues but generally not a big deal. 
If he got obsessive about it, questioning everything, checking over and over again for some sign that might be an affair even though there is none you bet your butt I'd lock it all down. 

How many of the people who say there is no reason to lock anything down let their spouses read everything they post, say or do on the internet? How many have been spied on constantly despite being innocent? How many have been VARed and had all personal conversations recorded? Enough of that would make anyone shut down and remove access. 

BTW- Because everyone says no one does, I do keep a journal. It's mostly ranting when I'm upset because it clears my head.

The fact that she locked stuff up AFTER he went through it all tells me she did it as a reaction of his spying and not due to bad behavior.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Thanks, All, for the helpful and sincere responses. The problem I'm facing now is that I'd like to work on my marriage, but I have simmering resentment for my wife that makes me feel like a zombie. She is clearly making an effort, and has said as much. She denies cheating, but I'm left with doubts. And those doubts are making it hard to fake happiness and commitment, especially when I rewind to all of the weird signals that have emerged over the last year. Those signals are now gone, frankly, but I worry that this episode is being swept under the rug only to set up another betrayal down the road. 

I never used to think about my wife in these terms.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

generico said:


> Thanks, All, for the helpful and sincere responses. The problem I'm facing now is that I'd like to work on my marriage, but I have simmering resentment for my wife that makes me feel like a zombie. She is clearly making an effort, and has said as much. She denies cheating, but I'm left with doubts. And those doubts are making it hard to fake happiness and commitment, especially when I rewind to all of the weird signals that have emerged over the last year. Those signals are now gone, frankly, but I worry that this episode is being swept under the rug only to set up another betrayal down the road.
> 
> I never used to think about my wife in these terms.


I can relate, hope it gets better for you. I also suspected my wife was cheating on me and she denied it. I only had circumstantial evidence and many red flags that could be refuted but a big gut feeling that didn't want to go away. It has finally started to dissipate. 

I feel like I could have written this post of yours. I started crossfit to help me clear my head, I was very depressed and this has helped a lot. Good luck.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

generico said:


> Thanks, All, for the helpful and sincere responses. The problem I'm facing now is that I'd like to work on my marriage, but I have simmering resentment for my wife that makes me feel like a zombie. She is clearly making an effort, and has said as much. She denies cheating, but I'm left with doubts. And those doubts are making it hard to fake happiness and commitment, especially when I rewind to all of the weird signals that have emerged over the last year. Those signals are now gone, frankly, but I worry that this episode is being swept under the rug only to set up another betrayal down the road.
> 
> I never used to think about my wife in these terms.


Sucks, doesn't it?



Slow Hand said:


> I can relate, hope it gets better for you. I also suspected my wife was cheating on me and she denied it. *I only had circumstantial evidence and many red flags that could be refuted but a big gut feeling that didn't want to go away.* It has finally started to dissipate.
> 
> I feel like I could have written this post of yours. I started crossfit to help me clear my head, I was very depressed and this has helped a lot. Good luck.


Care to share?


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

When this situation first emerged about a year ago, I was so in love with my wife. I was neglectful and caught up in my work, but in my heart I simply wanted to get through the professional rough patch to the happy family life that awaited. My love for her never wavered. But after going through hell to keep a hated job as long as possible and rising to the challenge of finding a new one ASAP--all very much alone--I simply don't feel the same way about her. She stepped on my fingers as I clung to the cliff, not only abandoning me but acting in ways that made me doubt her commitment to the marriage. I don't know...


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Sucks, doesn't it?
> 
> 
> 
> Care to share?


It was the usual red flags, taking the cell phone everywhere, password protecting the phone, emails and online phone bill. Refusing to let me see her cell phone, very protective of it, sleeping with it under her pillow. A lot of other red flags, but no missing time that I know of. She always came home when she was supposed to. Was never gone anywhere other than work, that I knew about. 

Calling me for her lunch and asking where I am at that exact minute, even asking twice after I told her where I was.

She never did give me the ILYBNILWY speech either. She started lying to me about even little things and then blaming it on her memory being bad and that she doesn't lie.

I saw what looked like hickeys on her breasts and she said it was a rash. Found her very wet a couple of times with what looked like semen and asked her what it was and she said probably cum. I asked how that was possible when we hadn't had sex in a week and I always use a condom. She said she didn't know what it was then. 

The co-worker I suspected she was seeing gave me dirty looks on two separate occasions when I went to pick her up for lunch and she got mad at me when I asked what that was all about and forbade me from getting down at her work to pick her up after that incident. 

I hacked the phone bill online and her emails, could not find anything. I placed a VAR in her car for a week and nothing. backed up her phone and used a recovery software for deleted text, pictures, whatsapp and found nothing. 

She also said she'll never take a poly because they are very unreliable and not even admissible in court.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Slow Hand said:


> It was the usual red flags, taking the cell phone everywhere, password protecting the phone, emails and online phone bill. Refusing to let me see her cell phone, very protective of it, sleeping with it under her pillow. A lot of other red flags, but no missing time that I know of. She always came home when she was supposed to. Was never gone anywhere other than work, that I knew about.
> 
> Calling me for her lunch and asking where I am at that exact minute, even asking twice after I told her where I was.
> 
> ...


Uhhh...

FWIW, those are some pretty damn big red flags.

I'd encourage you to re-deploy the VAR at random one-week intervals every month or so. If somethings up, she'll eventually let her guard down, and you'll have her dead to rights.

Do the same w/ her cell and recovery software.

Also, she can't KNOW that you're doing anything.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh...
> 
> FWIW, those are some pretty damn big red flags.
> 
> I'd encourage you to re-deploy the VAR at random one-week intervals every months or so. If somethings up, she'll eventually let her guard down, and you'll have her dead to rights.


I know, it's been hell. I went through all the motions of being cheated on, the thoughts of suicide, weight loss, all of it.  I'm still not over it but I don't know what else to do. She says she wants to make it work but I have no trust, she lied and denied, even when I knew for a fact she was lying. It was difficult to tell she was lying, I asked how she got so good at lying and she said, maybe I'm a natural.

I asked her if she loved this guy and she replied, of course I love him, everyone loves him, he's a nice guy. Ugh......

I even sent in a pair of her underwear that I held onto for two weeks because of her behavior and it came back positive for semen and no sperm. We had had sex 3 days before and I unfortunately used coconut oil on a latex condom so it could have been mine. I authorized a DNA test to see if they could find any but they ended up taking 3 times as long as they said they would and finally refunded my money with no explanations and no results. :surprise:

In our entire 26 year marriage, she has never apologized for anything, not counting these last few months when I brought up that fact with her. Now she's apologized 2 times because I said something about her offending me.

She has tried to gaslight me and rewrite our history, as if I were such a bad husband. She also liked to put me down a lot, telling me that nobody even likes or cares for me. 

I got her to finally read 5 love languages and she has changed a bit. A long way to go yet.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Slow Hand--why do you want to stay with her?


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

generico said:


> Slow Hand--why do you want to stay with her?


Some days I do and some days I don't. If I knew for a fact that she cheated on me, it would be over for sure. It's hard not knowing and not being able to trust her.

That being said, I'm still madly in love with her and I haven't even told you guys everything. Like she's a husband beater.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Why are you madly in love with someone who has so little respect for you?


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Why are you madly in love with someone who has so little respect for you?


I don't know. The thought of living the rest of my life without her is awful. I can't seem to shake it. 

I'm trying to detach, any advice?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Slow Hand said:


> I don't know. The thought of living the rest of my life without her is awful. I can't seem to shake it.
> 
> *I'm trying to detach, any advice?*


Divorce papers would probably help w/ that.


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Divorce papers would probably help w/ that.


Ugh, I promised to honor my marriage except for infidelity though. :|


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

generico said:


> When this situation first emerged about a year ago, I was so in love with my wife. I was neglectful and caught up in my work, but in my heart I simply wanted to get through the professional rough patch to the happy family life that awaited. My love for her never wavered. But after going through hell to keep a hated job as long as possible and rising to the challenge of finding a new one ASAP--all very much alone--I simply don't feel the same way about her. She stepped on my fingers as I clung to the cliff, not only abandoning me but acting in ways that made me doubt her commitment to the marriage. I don't know...


It's a difficult conflict to resolve, between protecting yourself and loving your spouse -- I get it. You've got to choose a path, though, and stick to it, because continuing to resent her without evidence means that your goal is still to save the marriage, but your actions are ultimately undermining it.

So, which are you going to choose.. in-depth investigation, or letting it go? Whichever one you pick, you should really work on being good to your wife in the interim. It'll be harder when investigating, as it'll be somewhat fake.. but at least the investigation will end, one way or another, at some point. Right now you're in an indefinite loop.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

mary35 said:


> It's highly possible that just being around Tim made her feel alive and sexy in a way that she has not felt in your marriage for along time. She may have fantasized and even flirted a bit, which spurred the changes in her.
> 
> It does not mean she had a PA or even an EA. Your getting suspicious may have actually stopped any action on her part, as she may have gotten the wake up call before anything at all happened. I think that is quite common especially in troubled marriages and when spouse's are in a time of asking themselves, is this it - Is this all my life is and will be?


Very possible. Tim is definitely in the mix. 

We all know the truth of how affairs start. Let's be honest, should a married woman be having children "play dates" alone with SAH friend Tim . Remember, OP was going out of town, wife never disclosed the "play date". Chances are this was not the first time they "arranged" their "play date", OP was never privy. 

Opposite Sex Friends in marriage is recipe for Affairs.


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## truster (Jul 23, 2015)

Slow Hand said:


> I hacked the phone bill online and her emails, could not find anything. I placed a VAR in her car for a week and nothing. backed up her phone and used a recovery software for deleted text, pictures, whatsapp and found nothing.


Seems pretty thorough, although it's hard to get over sleeping with a phone under the pillow -- that's a REALLY big red flag in my eyes. Sounds like there's more to this, though.. maybe even enough to justify getting out without knowing about cheating. You should start your own thread


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

truster said:


> Seems pretty thorough, although it's hard to get over sleeping with a phone under the pillow -- that's a REALLY big red flag in my eyes. Sounds like there's more to this, though.. maybe even enough to justify getting out without knowing about cheating. You should start your own thread


Huge red flag. When I told her I wanted to see it or I'd move out of the house, she "accidentally" put it in the washing machine with her clothes. :surprise:

I know, I may start one today. Sorry to hijack your thread, generico!


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

RWB said:


> Very possible. Tim is definitely in the mix.
> 
> We all know the truth of how affairs start. Let's be honest, should a married woman be having children "play dates" alone with SAH friend Tim . Remember, OP was going out of town, wife never disclosed the "play date". Chances are this was not the first time they "arranged" their "play date", OP was never privy.
> 
> Opposite Sex Friends in marriage is recipe for Affairs.


Tim is most certainly in the mix. He's at the bus stop every day. Can't escape him, which is one of the factors that keeps picking at this scab.


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## HobbesTheTiger (Apr 7, 2014)

Hi. 

Some of my advice: 
1. Go buy a VAR (voice activated recorder) or a GoPro immediately and use it to record all your interactions with her. She might try to falsely accuse you of domestic violence to the police. Better safe than sorry, and there have been (betrayed) husbands here who were hit with false DV charges.

2. Start documenting your and her care for the kids immediately. I recommend you be as detailed as possible, and I recommend you send the details of the day every day to a good friend of yours or to an alternate e-mail account so you will have time-stamped proof in case of a custody battle.

3. Set up individual counselling for yourself IMMEDIATELY! If necessary, through church. You need professional help in dealing with this! Also, if you separate or divorce, ask your counsellor if they can recommend a good children's therapist and set up counselling for them.

4. Go see your doctor about STD testing. Be aware that if you have sex with her, you risk getting an STD and/or getting her pregnant.

5. Confide in your friends&family about this, both in person and in writing. You will get their support, plus it will help you in case of later false accusations of domestic violence. Have you told any of them yet of her behaviour?

6. Make sure you eat, sleep and exercise as much as possible. If you're having trouble, talk to your doctor or a pharmacist. DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL.

7. Google "No more mr. nice guy pdf", it's a great book available online for free that might be a source of great strength for you.

8. Go to the library and check out "Not just friends", "His needs, her needs" and "5 languages of love" as well as "Married man sex life primer".

9. If I were you, I'd spend the next few weeks preparing for the worst-case scenario (divorce, her accusations of DV,...). Go see a lawyer, get your ducks in a row. Get yourself in the best possible position for losing the marriage. This is crucial because IF YOU WANT TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE, YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO LOSE IT. Prepare a list of non-negotiable conditions for NOT filling for divorce. Among those I'd include a.) she take a polygraph to prove she's not or wasn't cheating (offer that you'll take one too), b.) her going to an individual counsellor YOU choose and you attend the first session to tell your side of the story, c.) after a few months of her IC, you'll consider MC.

Most of all, keep talking to us, the more you talk to us, the more we can help you and support you!

Best wishes


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## Meghan78 (Nov 21, 2015)

I feel that she is pulling herself together to get attention from other men because she is insecure. I think you may need to compliment her more and give her more love, so she stops looking for it elsewhere. I also think you should up your game, start exercising, new cologne and keep yourself in shape. Maybe you could run with her? You need to change routine to spice up your marriage.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I can't remember.

Have you talked to Tim's wife about your suspicions?


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Re TDS: I have not talked with Tim's wife, and I fear doing so will be a disaster if indeed nothing happened. That said, I notice that Tim's wife seems depressed ( to the point of looking sad in pictures posted online). My wife speculates that she could have postpartum depression from the birth of her baby several months ago, but I do wonder if she knows something.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Re Meghan: I did get myself in excellent shape over the summer and tried to pay more attention to her. When she remarked on my physique, if at all, it would be in sort of a detached and intellectual way. Something like: "you certainly are getting in shape." No attraction, nothing.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

generico said:


> Re TDS: I have not talked with Tim's wife, and I fear doing so will be a disaster if indeed nothing happened. That said, I notice that Tim's wife seems depressed ( to the point of looking sad in pictures posted online). My wife speculates that she could have postpartum depression from the birth of her baby several months ago, but I do wonder if she knows something.


You are purposely missing an opportunity to help yourself and the OM's Wife.

You wife's cheating is the enemy, of you AND the OM's Wife. By getting the OM's Wife on the same page as you, you'll be putting another set of eyes and ears on finding out what's going on with these two.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. The friendly thing to do is get the OM's Wife on board by informing her of what you know and suspect.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

Re Groundpounder: I hear you, but if I'm wrong I just detonated a nuke in our little neighborhood cluster. I've contemplated subtle ways to get on the wife's radar, but I'm really worried about blowback.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

generico said:


> Re Groundpounder: I hear you, but if I'm wrong I just detonated a nuke in our little neighborhood cluster. I've contemplated subtle ways to get on the wife's radar, but I'm really worried about blowback.


Do you have a good friend in the neighborhood who is not close to Tim or your wife? Maybe you could enlist some help to act as an extra pair of eyes while you are away?

The first affair with the employee years ago - was it physical? 

If it was I think you have never really dealt with it and that is why your radar is being triggered at any sign of possible infidelity. Not that this is a bad thing. Just don't stress out over it. Remain calm and do your investigating. It could be nothing or it could be time to walk away given her history.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

TDS: My wife knows most folks in the neighborhood better than I do since she is one staying at home. Also, I've never known of any confirmed infidelity on her part...you might be mixing up my scenario with another one that surfaced in this string.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

generico...
It's time to get a few voice activated recorders and set them in the house and car.
Walking on eggshells is no way to live at least for me.
Take care.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

tom: I agree, though my wife and I have gone round and round on this so long that I fear she had gone deep underground. I don't know if I have the energy, given everything else I need to do, to sustain the kind of effort to reveal.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

generico said:


> TDS: My wife knows most folks in the neighborhood better than I do since she is one staying at home. Also, I've never known of any confirmed infidelity on her part...you might be mixing up my scenario with another one that surfaced in this string.


My apologies. I was mixing up threads - sorry.


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## generico (Nov 14, 2015)

I'm thinking more of contacting Tim's wife, but I'm worried about stirring something up if nothing in fact happened (is happening). That said, I do wonder if she is picking up on some of the same signals. Has anyone contacted a spouse without solid proof? Is there a subtle way to her thinking that doesn't come right out and make an accusation? 

If indeed my wife is being unfaithful, she has likely gone deep and probably won't be vulnerable to most of the detection strategies offered here...


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Not a good idea but you know best about the situation. Do you know her well?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

generico said:


> I'm thinking more of contacting Tim's wife, but I'm worried about stirring something up if nothing in fact happened (is happening). That said, I do wonder if she is picking up on some of the same signals. Has anyone contacted a spouse without solid proof? Is there a subtle way to her thinking that doesn't come right out and make an accusation?
> 
> If indeed my wife is being unfaithful, she has likely gone deep and probably won't be vulnerable to most of the detection strategies offered here...


Did you say you haven't put a VAR in her car or around the house. This is the most basic and effecting resource you can take advantage of. If she has successfully thwarted your investigation s so far she may get sloppy.

Sahd and sahms have some of the highest infidelity rates.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Instead of asking Tim's wife if she thinks something is going on between the two of them, just ask her if she's heard anything about your wife having an affair with anyone. And swear her to secrecy. Of course if she doesn't know anything, she WILL discuss it with Tim. He will contact your wife and she will come at you. Then you know they are contacting each other inappropriately.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

My friend you didnt do anything what we told you.

Wake up and do something. It is your life,your Marriage.

VAR is around 10 euros I think here in Germany.

I would give a lot more if I was in your shoes.


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## kirst72 (Oct 7, 2015)

You've tried pretty much everything to find out if your wife's having an affair and so far, nothing concrete. Could be that she's not or that she's an experienced cheater.

If I was in your shoes, I'd go all out on paying a Private Investigator to follow her for three days (perhaps whilst you're away from the home). 

If nothing is found, you need to stop thinking she's cheating and get help in ways to communicate effectively, together and come back together. If investigation finds she's up to stuff...say nothing, sort your finances, etc, prepare your exit strategy and leave her.

You will NOT stop thinking she's cheating until you get proof either way and your marriage will be over if you don't get answers, as you're always looking for proof. Vicious cycle needs to stop one way or another.


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## MarriedToTheOne (Apr 22, 2015)

Gus,

I like this approach.

There may have been some "thoughts" on both sides (Tim and wife) or may have just been platonic - but excessively so (emotional cheating can easily be as bad as physical cheating).

This should generate some activity if it is either.


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## Blinders2 (Mar 10, 2012)

AID,

I read your posting almost like a book that I myself had already written. I feel your anguish and can sympathize. There are so many similarities btwn what you describe and my situation a few years ago. The demands of job and of life in general are items that we as men tend to take on with full force without really, I mean really considering what it might be for those we love around us. In short, I did 2 things that were so simple but at the time seemed like mountains to climb. First, I found my walk again with the God of the bible. Yes, I know I might be ridiculed and I know that not everyone going through your kind of situation will choose to do that especially those of us, men, who are hard headed and stubborn. That's ok. It's just simply what I did. Let the mocking begin.
2nd, the person who counseled me told me to walk the walk and talk the talk. Know how hard that is after spending years with resentments, ill feelings, and constant threats of divorce? However, I somehow managed to actually do it. It might sound crazy but I guess what I am trying to convey is that I focused on what I could be for the woman that I pledged my life to and knew in my heart was and is my soul mate. No matter the looks she would give, no matter how little the sex had become, no matter how she treated me,,,, I in turn treated her the complete opposite and did it all with a smile on my face. Honestly, when I thought I could no longer maintain this self deprecating existence, I would think of it as a game. In truth, I would think of it as me being a much better person than she and for some reason it made me want to do it more (sick, I know). Believe it or not, after just a few months the apologies started to come my way. Sex became more frequent and more passionate. There was a little more laughter and less blaming. These days I actually get looks of longing from her and it's the most amazing time of our marriage. We are slow to anger and quick to make amends. It's true that I was the cause of "most" of our prior problems and I have since asked for forgiveness many a time (making money my God, chatting online with women for the thrill, not being there for her when she needed me) but.... so has she (the guy "friend" she also would go run with because she NEVER was a runner..?!, the "Daddy issues" of me not living up to her fantasy of what a husband and father should be). The list could go on and on back and forth but my little piece of advice is to be the person to her that you would want for yourself. If you are still married, she obviously is still in it for some reason other than financial stability or the kids. I mean, if someone is THAT miserable and truly disgusted with their spouse, most likely they will high tail it outta there pretty quickly. I think, just like my wife, yours is hurt and doesn't know how, at this point, to communicate that hurt other than trying to hurt you back and it sounds like she knows the exact buttons to rip out off your winter jacket to make you absolutely crazy! I wish you well and really hope it work outs. It is pure hell to be in a situation where the one you want most doesn't want you so I understand the angst that you are living with each day. At the end of it all if you have honestly done all YOU can do and nothing changes, well, you at least have your answer and can try to move on with your life as a much wiser and happier person.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

You raised your wife up so she might have cut Tim off cold turkey. He might not be happy with that, thus the turning his back to you.

Is your wife still doing herself up ? Or has that suddenly slowed down ?

Since both wives are stay at home it will be tough calling her I think..

But if you had a chance to talk to her I would not hint about Tim but instead hint about your wife and thinking she might be or has been cheating and then see what SHE SAYS.. She might say it for you.. 

Make it clear also that you might be going nuts yourself because of work and such.. This way if she does give you up to your wife, at least or hope that she does also remember that line about work making you nuts..

Why did you tell Tim's wife ? 

I don't know babe.. I guess I needed to hear a woman's opinion on it.. Who knows maybe I am just going nuts..

What I can tell you is this from my own personal experience.. You are right it does come back.. I caught my Ex wife the first time with no evidence.. I just called her out on it ( but I didn't know what IT was )... I didn't think IT was cheating or looking to cheat..

Months later I really caught her red handed looking to cheat.. Personally I think the first time she was kicked to the curb by someone and was depressed.. Like breaking up with a boyfriend and then found someone else in a chatroom a few weeks later.. 

But she continued to cheat on and off until we divorced. 

So you might have caught her and now she is laying low. 
You have no evidence now and she isn't that dumb I guess. 

Maybe she woke up and had her "Oh Sh!t" Moment or she might be scared right now and it will start back up once she feels safe.. 

You know her better than we do.. 

Personally I'm big on just being confrontational and saying fvck you when you cry about my job or how you feel because of it.. I don't give a sh!t.. I don't work there anymore.. I think you fvcked Tim.. So fvcking tell me what the fvck is going in or I will find out my way.. 

You know she will just derail and complain about your job and that NOW you want to be a husband and a father.. Which means she fvcked him. Because if she thinks that little of you then you lost her already.. 

Sometimes it is *"did you order the code red"* moment and they tell the truth..


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Bull****.....my agency locks people up based on results of their polys. She knows you can bust her ass with it. I'd be done with her if she is not willing to take a poly after the cum comment. She was right it was!


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

RWB said:


> mary35 said:
> 
> 
> > It's highly possible that just being around Tim made her feel alive and sexy in a way that she has not felt in your marriage for along time. She may have fantasized and even flirted a bit, which spurred the changes in her.
> ...



IV seen other threads where wife was at play date and while kids were playing in yard, POSOM and WW were going at it in the bed upstairs.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

generico, I wouldn't say anything to Tim's wife. There are several reasons, the most important of all is that you aren't likely to get anything solid from it. But you may also poison their marriage. If there was no affair, it would be a bad thing to do to another marriage. Now if you are good friends with Tim and his wife that is different. But if you are just neighbor friends then it would seem to be unexpected for you to talk to her about your wife, and that may start her thinking you were really fishing about her husband and your wife (which is what you would be doing!), and then she starts to doubt her own husband. If there's been no affair, that would just not be right imo to potentially poison their marriage.

Additionally, what if it wasn't Tim? Maybe it was someone else.

If I had to bet money, I'd put a small wager on your wife did have an affair, and probably with Tim. But I wouldn't wager someone else's family on it!

Your best bet is VAR in the house where she may make private calls. A pen VAR is one option, as well as a traditional VAR hidden under something where she won't find it (like when she's cleaning or dusting). There are thumbdrive VARs which you can just leave lying around without raising any suspicion. They make excellent hidden video cameras built into all kinds of things, like clocks, pens, smoke detectors, etc. There are keyloggers which look like a thumbdrive and you can plug into the back of a computer in a USB port. She likely will never notice it, and if she did she wouldn't know what it is most likely.

My guess is she's put things on hold for the time being. Act calm and don't give her any hint of you being suspicious. Keep your surveillance in place. If something is up, you'll catch it.

For the record, I believe my wife had an affair about 6 years ago. Due to teen daughter drama at home I didn't pursue investigating, and I really didn't know how to anyway. When I finally did confront her I had no hard evidence, just circumstantial things which she had an explanation for. I couldn't disprove her explanations after the fact.

I suggest you dwell less on the possible past affair and concentrate more on current behaviors and whether the marriage is otherwise acceptable to you. If she did have a one-off affair and never does again, and if she is a good wife to you now and into the future, you'll never get your answer on the affair but you will have a good wife in the present and future. But if the marriage is not acceptable now, you have something actionable. You can work on the marriage and/or you can move to divorce.

If you find out later she really did have the affair with Tim you can then use that as justification for divorce. But I really doubt you'll ever get closure on it if the affair is ended.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

One more thing - you can trust your gut. You don't need CSI crime lab DNA evidence. You can know what you know without it. You don't have to prove anything to her. You can make a decision based on what you believe in your heart.

You are where you are because of what she has done. Even if it was totally innocent, she is the one who had a play date scheduled secretly with Tim, she's the one who made the comment about cum, etc. You aren't crazy for having these gut feelings.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

G,

From one who has been there... please lay low, play nice, be the perfect H... set the traps (VARs, Friend Eyes, what ever). Do not confront without IRON CLAD PROOF.

Regardless of R or D, the TRUTH is the only clarity. 

Don't be me.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Divinely Favored said:


> Bull****.....my agency locks people up based on results of their polys. She knows you can bust her ass with it. I'd be done with her if she is not willing to take a poly after the cum comment. She was right it was!


I cant recall or find a c*m comment. where did that come from?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I felt like he wanted to be rewarded for simply doing the bare minimums or like he was helping ME out by doing them. If he wanted recognition for the couple months he helped out it was like - where the hell is mine for the YEARS I did it all myself? Or if he said "I did the sweeping for you" Excuse me? For me? You did the sweeping because you're a grown man who needs to help clean the home he lives in.


doesnt help when there are asymmetrical expectations about house state, she likes playing house, so when is the joint sport participation outing or mechanical stuff happening? (my thought was "wtf do I give a damn about sweeping, on a list of priorities and fun things to do that's got to be at the end of the list")


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## Slow Hand (Oct 4, 2015)

Chaparral said:


> I cant recall or find a c*m comment. where did that come from?


I believe it was a reply to my post, #80. :smile2:


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

generico said:


> Re TDS: I have not talked with Tim's wife, and I fear doing so will be a disaster if indeed nothing happened. That said, I notice that Tim's wife seems depressed ( to the point of looking sad in pictures posted online). My wife speculates that she could have postpartum depression from the birth of her baby several months ago, but I do wonder if she knows something.


Now would be the great time to do so. And if your wife gets her panties in a bunch for you doing so, "Sorry, but your actions have left me less than enthusiastic and more than a little skeptical. I'm covering my bases to protect this marriage. And if asking his wife is your hill to die on, then it's pretty clear you aren't as into saving this marriage as I am, and we should just agree to move on."

It would actually be a really good stress test of your marriage.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

turnera said:


> Now would be the great time to do so. And if your wife gets her panties in a bunch for you doing so, "Sorry, but your actions have left me less than enthusiastic and more than a little skeptical. I'm covering my bases to protect this marriage. And if asking his wife is your hill to die on, then it's pretty clear you aren't as into saving this marriage as I am, and we should just agree to move on."
> 
> It would actually be a really good stress test of your marriage.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:
Good grief no wonder if you don't respect yourself who will?:banghead:


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