# Safe spaces for college students



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

"Judith Shulevitz, writing in the New York Times, reports that infantilized college students are indulging their need for insulation by demanding “safe spaces” where any speech that could hurt their feelings would be forbidden."

'Infantilized' College Students Need 'Safe Spaces' to Avoid Scary Free Speech - Breitbart

So much for the theory that college is a place for spirited debate!


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

These days, it seems like college students need safe spaces where they won't be shot. That's really scary.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

norajane said:


> These days, it seems like college students need safe spaces where they won't be shot. That's really scary.


Yes, and irrelevant.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

technovelist said:


> "Judith Shulevitz, writing in the New York Times, reports that infantilized college students are indulging their need for insulation by demanding “safe spaces” where any speech that could hurt their feelings would be forbidden."
> 
> 'Infantilized' College Students Need 'Safe Spaces' to Avoid Scary Free Speech - Breitbart
> 
> So much for the theory that college is a place for spirited debate!


Just wait till they get a real job......The first time they are called a stipid fu-ck in front of an entire department they will put up or shut up....Although I once saw a male intern ask an engineering secretary....... 

"if I lie down in the nurses office will you put a cool cloth on my forehead?" :wtf::rofl::rofl:


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

technovelist said:


> Yes, and irrelevant.


Why is it irrelevant? College students have a lot bigger problems to worry about than who speaks at a debate on abortion. They need more basic security on their campuses, for starters. That's what they should be protesting about and pushing for.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

norajane said:


> Why is it irrelevant? College students have a lot bigger problems to worry about than who speaks at a debate on abortion. They need more basic security on their campuses, for starters. That's what they should be protesting about and pushing for.


They should be allowed to carry a firearm....


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
We need a way to separate strong disagreement from oppression.

"I think the government should end all race based programs, the are just making things too easy on minorities" is a political statement, one I disagree with but which is valid to say.

"Hey N***** , you don't belong here" is hate speech and shouldn't be allowed.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

technovelist said:


> "Judith Shulevitz, writing in the New York Times, reports that infantilized college students are indulging their need for insulation by demanding “safe spaces” where any speech that could hurt their feelings would be forbidden."
> 
> 'Infantilized' College Students Need 'Safe Spaces' to Avoid Scary Free Speech - Breitbart
> 
> So much for the theory that college is a place for spirited debate!


I can't understand why, as a society, we indulge a$$holes.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

norajane said:


> Why is it irrelevant? College students have a lot bigger problems to worry about than who speaks at a debate on abortion. They need more basic security on their campuses, for starters. That's what they should be protesting about and pushing for.


It is irrelevant precisely because the original point was that they are whiny crybabies getting upset about nothing.

As for security, the first thing to do is to get rid of signs saying "Gun Free Zone", if those idiotic signs are present in the first place.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Uh-uh
Because relatively small areas where a group of thousands of young people, exhausted, under stress, many living away from home for the first time, often making impulsive decisions, drinking too much and experimenting with recreational drugs....ought to have guns around them?

The kids are learning, and learning how to find a balance in their speech is part of that. So they're not there yet. They're kids.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> Uh-uh
> Because relatively small areas where a group of thousands of young people, exhausted, under stress, many living away from home for the first time, often making impulsive decisions, drinking too much and experimenting with recreational drugs....ought to have guns around them?
> 
> The kids are learning, and learning how to find a balance in their speech is part of that. So they're not there yet. They're kids.


If you were a murderous lunatic and wanted to kill as many people as possible before you were stopped, which would you go to?

1. A gun range
2. A school with "We welcome armed civilians" signs
3. A school with "Gun Free Zone" signs


Q. E. D.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

technovelist said:


> If you were a murderous lunatic and wanted to kill as many people as possible before you were stopped, which would you go to?
> 
> 1. A gun range
> 2. A school with "We welcome armed civilians" signs
> ...


Sorry for the t-jack here, but facts don't support your theory.

since January 2009 there have been 16 mass shootings (where 4 or more people are killed by a firearm) that took place either in part or wholly in areas where guns were not banned, and 2 others where armed guards or police were there at the time of the shooting. 
Lunatics shoot people because lunatics have access to guns, not because of where their targets are.

And my post wasn't about homicidal lunatics, but about lessening the chance that drunken, often-irresponsible, stressed out kids keep guns in their dorm rooms.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> Sorry for the t-jack here, but facts don't support your theory.
> 
> since January 2009 there have been 16 mass shootings (where 4 or more people are killed by a firearm) that took place either in part or wholly in areas where guns were not banned, and 2 others where armed guards or police were there at the time of the shooting.
> Lunatics shoot people because lunatics have access to guns, not because of where their targets are.
> ...


What proportion of all mass shootings were in "gun free zones" compared to places where there were likely to be other armed people? Note that just because a place doesn't have a "gun free zone" sign doesn't mean that there are likely to be other armed people. E.g., in places like NYC it is essentially impossible to carry a gun legally unless you are Donald Trump or the like.

And as far as kids having guns in their dorm rooms, are they legal adults? If so, then they have the right to keep and bear arms just like all other (non-felon) adults have. Everyone gets stressed out from time to time, and many people also get drunk from time to time, but that doesn't take away their rights.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

College is NOT a place for 'spirited debate.' 

It's a place for political correctness, and you'll comply or you'll fail the class, or go to the Dean's office. 
Or both.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

norajane said:


> Why is it irrelevant? College students have a lot bigger problems to worry about than who speaks at a debate on abortion. They need more basic security on their campuses, for starters. That's what they should be protesting about and pushing for.


I think he meant it's irrelevant to the point of this thread.

That coddled babies don't know how to deal with real-life problems. BTDT.

DD25 has a friend who's been trying to conceive who has flat out said she doesn't want anyone talking about their pregnancies or babies since it's 'selfish' and 'hurtful' to her.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

technovelist said:


> What proportion of all mass shootings were in "gun free zones" compared to places where there were likely to be other armed people? Note that just because a place doesn't have a "gun free zone" sign doesn't mean that there are likely to be other armed people. E.g., in places like NYC it is essentially impossible to carry a gun legally unless you are Donald Trump or the like.
> 
> And as far as kids having guns in their dorm rooms, are they legal adults? If so, then they have the right to keep and bear arms just like all other (non-felon) adults have. Everyone gets stressed out from time to time, and many people also get drunk from time to time, but that doesn't take away their rights.


you're applying your reasoning to a mass murder and I don't think that's valid. They pick a spot connected to some sort of ax they have to g, not because of a policy against weapons. College students have spats with colleges, kind of like the last shooting demonstrated.

And college students, at least the upperclass, are often legal adults who can purchase alcohol, but the schools can and do keep alcohol off campus-for the safety of others. 

Not all colleges are so quick to squash the free speech rights of their students. Some are good, some are bad. Same with violence on campus.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Pluto2 said:


> you're applying your reasoning to a mass murder and I don't think that's valid. They pick a spot connected to some sort of ax they have to g[rind], not because of a policy against weapons.


*Do they pick gun free zones?*
At least a few recent mass murderers seem to have specifically chosen the place they shot up because of the "gun-free zones":

1. James Holmes:

"So why did the killer pick the Cinemark theater? You might think that it was the one closest to the killer’s apartment. Or, that it was the one with the largest audience.

Yet, neither explanation is right. Instead, out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, it was the only one where guns were banned. In Colorado, individuals with permits can carry [a] concealed handgun in most malls, stores, movie theaters, and restaurants. But private businesses can determine whether permit holders can carry guns on their private property."

Did ?Gun-Free Zone? Sign at Theater Contribute to Shootings?

2. Eliot Rodgers:
"Rodger spent over a year and a half meticulously planning his attack.

His 141-page “manifesto” makes it clear that he feared someone with a gun could stop him before he was able to kill a lot of people.

Consider his discussion about where he thought the best place to attack people was:

“Another option was Deltopia, a day in which many young people pour in from all over the state to have a spring break party on Del Playa Street. I figured this would be the perfect day to attack Isla Vista, but after watching Youtube videos of previous Deltopia parties, I saw that there were way too many cops walking around on such an event. It would be impossible to kill enough of my enemies before being dispatched by those damnable cops.”
Isla Vista Shooter Intentionally Chose A "Gun Free Zone" - Bearing Arms - Mass Shooting, Spree Killing
*
Scholarly study exploring mass murders and how to reduce them*
There is a scholarly study from 1999 that explores mass murders and what might be done to reduce them.

Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement by John R. Lott, William M. Landes :: SSRN

Here's the meat of the conclusion, although the entire paper is very interesting:

"While arrest or conviction rates and the death penalty reduce normal murder rates, our results find that the only policy factor to influence multiple victim public shootings is the passage of concealed handgun laws. "

And guess how it influences them? If honest citizens can carry concealed, it REDUCES the severity of those shootings by stopping them faster, on the average, and with fewer casualties:

"Table 3 shows a sharp drop in multiple murders
and injuries per 100,000 persons after the passage of a shall issue law. Murders fell by 89 percent and injuries by 82 percent."

By the way, here's an interesting example of what happens when the mass murderers think they have a safe place to kill people :

"Referring to the July 1984 massacre at a San Ysidro, California,
McDonald’s restaurant, Israeli criminologist Abraham Tennenbaum
wrote that:
what occurred at a [crowded venue in] Jerusalem some
weeks before the California McDonald's massacre: three
terrorists who attempted to machine-gun the throng
managed to kill only one victim before being shot down
by handgun carrying Israelis. Presented to the press the
next day, *the surviving terrorist complained that his
group had not realized that Israeli civilians were armed*.
The terrorists had planned to machine-gun a succession
of crowd spots, thinking that they would be able to escape
before the police or army could arrive to deal with them.

What a nerve those non-criminals had!


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> We need a way to separate strong disagreement from oppression.
> 
> "I think the government should end all race based programs, the are just making things too easy on minorities" is a political statement, one I disagree with but which is valid to say.
> ...


Hate speech and oppression are not the same....Two guys squaring off in a heated argument can pretty much say anything they have the A$$ to back up.....I call him xyz....he punches me in the face...no oppression there...Hate speech can only be oppression when it comes from a government or similar power structure....If I said, I hate xyz...it is just words...When Hitler said I hate xyz 6 million died...

I think you will agree....."What do we want....Dead cops" is hate speech....No oppression...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think there is a whole range. We probably agree that hate speach itself is not the problem, (though my liberal friend would not agree) its hate speech backed by a credible threat to act on that speech.

So a random person telling jokes about my ethnicity isn't a problem. My boss doing the same would be a problem. In a cooperative environment, co-workers telling ethnic jokes is also a problem because there is the credible threat of not working with the minority person. 




Woodchuck said:


> Hate speech and oppression are not the same....Two guys squaring off in a heated argument can pretty much say anything they have the A$$ to back up.....I call him xyz....he punches me in the face...no oppression there...Hate speech can only be oppression when it comes from a government or similar power structure....If I said, I hate xyz...it is just words...When Hitler said I hate xyz 6 million died...
> 
> I think you will agree....."What do we want....Dead cops" is hate speech....No oppression...


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

technovelist said:


> *Do they pick gun free zones?*
> At least a few recent mass murderers seem to have specifically chosen the place they shot up because of the "gun-free zones":
> 
> 1. James Holmes:
> ...


Posting a bunch of pro-gun sites and Lott dribble isn't very convincing. 
and maybe this should all go on the gun thread.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Be clear though, on many/most college campuses you can openly espouse the most violent insane racist genocidal nonsense as long as you target groups who are out of favor with the leftward leaning college demographic. Much of goes far beyond ordinary hate speech and crosses into attempts to incite murder and violence. Whereas in the 1970's, neo Nazis went to court to get the 'right' to purchase ad space in college newspapers to print their antisemtism, you would have a hard time stopping it today from being freely printed on any other page of a college newspaper for free. UC Irvine's student president was only reluctantly relieved of his position for openly calling for the murder of Jews on campus and for quoting Hitler. Stanford's student council elections this year had to backpedal their own election bylaws which included "Are you a Jew?" question. Similarly UNC Chapel Hill stopped supporting more than 50 student groups for the sole reason that they self identified as 'conservative' without once having the school ever look into what their views or activities actually were. 

More often than not, the notion of 'safe spaces' in college today means censorship, book burning, threats of expulsion or violence or worse in the name of a monolithic unquestioned far left group think. To even question this ethos can get you expelled with claims of 'oppression'. It would amaze me if today, one college didn't kick out and disband at least one student group in the US, today, on Columbus Day for celebrating or even noting that it's Columbus Day.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

And, on the opposite spectrum, many of the colleges in MY state are decidedly right-leaning and punish students for not toeing THAT line.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

turnera said:


> And, on the opposite spectrum, many of the colleges in MY state are decidedly right-leaning and punish students for not toeing THAT line.


Same here.

Between the religiously infused "colleges" and the century-old traditional crap, you'd be hard pressed to find a liberal bastion of education in my state.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Why are students now cheering about the massacre at Charlie Hebdo? - Spectator Blogs


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The youth of today are not capable of defending their opinions with reasoned argument. They pay a lot of money to have their thinking formed. To then have to think just hurts them. They complain to stop the pain.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Most students today are in college because mommy and daddy told them to go. Not because they want an education. There is an entire rant in this that I won't begin to launch.

Anyway, some of you will be pleased to know Canada turfed a university board governor recently for infringing the academic freedom of a faculty member. Nasty business and definitely not a one-sided story but it was the unfortunate, if required outcome:

Former UBC board chair steps down after academic freedom review - The Globe and Mail


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

norajane said:


> These days, it seems like college students need safe spaces where they won't be shot. That's really scary.



I stand in the front of the room... Pretty sure I will be the first one down.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

This says it all, it's all from how they were raised.

I love the quote from Batman Begins

Why do we fall Bruce? So we can learn to pick ourselves up.

Sadly, most of these kids today will never learn how to pick themselves up. They're all taught that life is full of roses and they'll always be winners and everyone will bow down to them.

Alot of them are in for a rude awakening and IMO it's all the fault of their parents.

I've seen it at my kids school. One of the GATE teachers was actually moved out just 2 months into the school year because a couple of parents complained that she was giving too much homework and their kids were spending all their time doing homework every night. Well maybe your kid doesn't belong in the GATE program? HA, I could see that lawsuit coming towards the school, even if it was true.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Yep. Gates says that success is a lousy teacher, and I agree. My best lessons came from (and some still ongoing) epic failures.

To fail, however, you have to be willing to accept some risk. That's not something these parents living vicariously through their children are willing to accept either.

It may not immediately produce straight-A doctors, accountants and lawyers, but it sure does grow good humans:

“Take chances, make mistakes. That's how you grow. Pain nourishes your courage. You have to fail in order to practice being brave.”


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Read the one about trinity college in Dublin justifying the Charlie Hebdo killings.

College has turned decidedly weird even compared to the weird I dealt with in the 80s.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

In several surveys of students, American college students appear to prefer censorship of words and ideas they personally don't agree with - on campus. I say go for it. Meanwhile employers can screen for college idiot far left Social Justice Warrior groupthink and weed them out. They're not a protected class minority yet. That way they can find some sort of employment in academia talking to each other about their theories and growing another generation of glint eyed drones. 

Germaine Greer - famous feminist banned from speaking because she doesn't believe trans women are actually women
Ayan Hirsi Ali - feminist ex Muslim banned from speaking because 'someone might' be offended
Free Speech debates across England cancelled because.......people are not entitled to free speech if it angers someone

And so forth. I say do it. Do it harder. Then when you leave the creche of college you can fight that censorship fight in the real world. You can be a gay feminist standing shoulder to shoulder with Islamic terrorists who will kill you right after both of you are done killing Jews.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

True. Moreover, today it is almost impossible to fail out. You can record a GPA of 0.0 for your entire freshman year and still be allowed to return after a "timeout". I know of a student who went to a big second tier state university who drank booze, smoked pot and yet he can return when he is ready to try again.

My alma mater and many other universities are agonizing over policies to prevent non-consensual sex between students. However, they are confused about the differences between rape, sexual harassment, stalking, crude behavior and post coital regret. My university had a process that nailed a young guy who had consensual sex with a girl. When her mother read her diary over Christmas, she shamed her daughter into making a complaint against the guy, although she willingly had sex a second time after the alleged non-consensual sex. The male student was not allowed due process. The university did not refer the case to police as an instance of rape.

This is also mental babysitting by the university. Women have to be taught by their parents and other authority figures that men are going to ply them with booze to get laid. They need to file police complaints immediately. If universities are going to offer relationship counseling to women who are unhappy about their private lives, men should receive the same support.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It's all because of lawyers. Nearly ALL our problems are because of lawyers. I remember when it wasn't allowed for lawyers to advertise. Back then nobody sued. Then they changed the rule. Suddenly law schools started cranking out lawyers by the thousands, all ready to get their piece of the pie. And one by one, everything in America, at least, started changing to AVOID LAWSUITS.

Such a shame.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

turnera said:


> It's all because of lawyers. Nearly ALL our problems are because of lawyers. I remember when it wasn't allowed for lawyers to advertise. Back then nobody sued. Then they changed the rule. Suddenly law schools started cranking out lawyers by the thousands, all ready to get their piece of the pie. And one by one, everything in America, at least, started changing to AVOID LAWSUITS.
> 
> Such a shame.


May they die in agony because drug companies were sued out of developing a cure for the disease they now have, and the doctors won't relieve their pain for fear of being sued...>


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

LongWalk said:


> The youth of today are not capable of defending their opinions with reasoned argument. They pay a lot of money to have their thinking formed. To then have to think just hurts them. They complain to stop the pain.


Sort of like zombies, except instead of eating brains to stop the pain of being dead, they whine and complain to stop the pain of USING their brains...>


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

This is BS and disturbing. If you can't have a different viewpoint at college then where can you have it? Think sort of thinking comes from the stupid point of view that children in public schools should be in a "non-confrontational" atmosphere. Isn't school supposed to prepare kids for their future? If you think kids will go their entire lives without confronation and not knowing how to deal with it will serve them well, that just isn't reality.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

turnera said:


> It's all because of lawyers. Nearly ALL our problems are because of lawyers. I remember when it wasn't allowed for lawyers to advertise. Back then nobody sued. Then they changed the rule. Suddenly law schools started cranking out lawyers by the thousands, all ready to get their piece of the pie. And one by one, everything in America, at least, started changing to AVOID LAWSUITS.
> 
> Such a shame.


Lawyers don't have cases without greedy clients.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It has nothing to do with lawsuits. Colleges are generally immune from civil suits against 'views' or speakers. It has to do with THIS IS WHAT THEY TRULY BELIEVE. Cornell is a good example - 96% of all political donations from the staff go to democrats. They hired that nutjob Cynthia McKinney a few years pack - someone who took money from a Pakistani terrorist front in her failed re election campaign in Georgia. And then blamed on and I quote her from national television "The F6cking Jews! but we'll get you all!" unquote. 

Colleges are lunatic asylums. That's why.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

BS. Trust me. I watched my DD25's college make decisions with staying out of trouble in mind. Firsthand.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Lawyers don't have cases without greedy clients.


Sure they would....Why do you think late nite tv is full of adds by lawyers trying to drum up business....You might get, you might not have to, you may already...Scumbags....

Almost as bad are the medical device companies hawking knee braces, back braces, nebulizers, and other crap that costs 3X the price of similar products you could buy on ebay or at walmart...

And when it gets to their door, at no cost to them, it will be tried once and get put in a drawer till the buyer dies, and then it gets tossed in a landfill...And it costs the taxpayer billions....They sold my dad a cheap wheelchair for no cost to him, but $1200 to medicare...


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Ah, the Medicare wheelchair scam. Hospital did the same thing to my dad who died of Alzheimer's recently. The wheel was covered by insurance but it was given him for free as rental equipment. It was very poor in quality. My mother thought it did not make sense to have Medicare paying a chunk of cash every month. She thought, perhaps illogically, that it would be better to buy one with my parents' own money. The store, connected to the local hospital, did not even sell them, unless you made a special order. Selling was to simple and cheap.

After many months, probably more than two years, they said the insurance had expended itself. To keep the chair my parents would have to buy it. The price tag was outrageous, given that it was a third rate piece of crap. I think my mother gave it back. But I think the scam's idea was for my mother to forget and then receive a bill for it, which she might have just paid.

The medical supplies company and the local hospital and doctors are in cahoots, ripping off the taxpayer.

re: college students
Had an interesting conversation with a professor of piano performance. He said that getting the top students from China was vital. They filled up the music department. Why aren't there more Americans? The US is decadent.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

turnera said:


> It's all because of lawyers. Nearly ALL our problems are because of lawyers. I remember when it wasn't allowed for lawyers to advertise. Back then nobody sued. Then they changed the rule. Suddenly law schools started cranking out lawyers by the thousands, all ready to get their piece of the pie. And one by one, everything in America, at least, started changing to AVOID LAWSUITS.
> 
> Such a shame.


Someone once told me, we get the society and government we deserve. Why? Because we keep voting in the same assh0les who make these ridiculous rules and we put up with the nonsense of the cry babies that feel entitled. At some point enough is going to be enough, it's just a question of when.


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