# Can't seem to end it



## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

I'm in a marriage that's not bad at all, but it just doesn't really work anymore, I think. We want different things out of life and whilst we love each other a lot, he is more attracted to me and I fulfil him more than the other way around. He's very dependent upon me, not only financially (I'm the one who works whereas he takes care of our two children) but also emotionally. I find this hard, it really wears on me, and in times when he needs a lot of attention, I'm physically put off by the way he clings to me. Simply put I don't find him attractive anymore (and I won't; it's been this way for quite some time) and he has done things in the past that I can't seem to get past - maybe I'll elaborate on this later, I feel ashamed now. 

Anyway, I recently have tried to end my marriage two times. The first time, he went away for a few days and came back a 'different man'. He has changed for the good in a lot of ways since then. I just don't feel like it makes any difference anymore. So this weekend, I told him again that I want to be alone. I want to consciously uncouple, to make sure our children don't fall by the wayside, to be able to remain in a loving relationship with him as ex-partners and co-parents. However he assumes that because there is still so much love - and because he is infinitely more attracted to me than I am to him - I don't mean it and that we can work on it etc. I have a hard time putting my foot down. He cries and cries and says that he doesn't want to split and I give in yet again. Because I DO love him. I do! I just don't want to be married to him anymore.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

Some more background, this is something I recently wrote in another thread.

When my husband and I met, I was seventeen and he was twenty. He’d been in a relationship that did not fit him and when he met me, he was immediately over the moon: I was so different! I fell for him too because we had a lot in common and to be fair, I was totally unexperienced and did not know what I was supposed to feel. Throughout our relationship, I have always had a sort of nagging doubt, sometimes almost non-existent, sometimes very prominent, but every time I voiced this doubt or told him I didn’t like the way things were going or anything, he convinced me to stay because our relationship was the stuff that (his) dreams were made of. I let myself believe in that and I did always love him very much and still do, but sometimes I do wonder if we’re a good match/if we’ve ever been a good match – I feel like we get along fine but it’s not really that special sort of love. He tells me that he loves my quirks and wants to have a ‘happy, bubbly [my name]’, because I am happy and bubbly and I bring a lot of that into his life probably, besides bringing a lot more too – which, again, I’ll get to.

As the years passed, he quit his education because he couldn’t make it work and started working a part-time underpaid job. All the while I was graduating and starting work and later on building my own business, which thrived. Then at some point he lost his part-time job too and became unemployed, and he couldn’t manage to find a new job. So then I gave him a job in my business, which I regret now because it made him even more dependent on me, but at that point I didn’t feel like I had a choice: it was either this – it seemed to make him happy – or watch him be depressed and unable to get out of this because he wasn’t able to find work. 

During this time, there came a point when I was done with it and told him so. Then I made the worst mistake I could have made. He bawled like a baby and I felt so sorry for him and I also felt so much pain, because I do love him, so his pain is my pain too, and I don’t want him to hurt. Somewhere within this dynamic he cried out: “I want to have children with you!” (i.e.: “Don’t do this to me, don’t throw away this future!”) Because I felt sorry and because I love him and because he promised things would be different, I stayed, and now we have two children. Who by the way mean the world to me and if I could go back and change anything, I wouldn’t, because then I wouldn’t have them.

But things haven’t really changed. This is because he can change his behavior on some level, try to work on himself and be a better husband, give me everything I need (I need a lot of freedom I always say, but right now I feel like this is just a need for being away from him because his negativity and his down-putting comments (or belittling jokes) they wear me down too) – eh, where was I. Well so yes he tries and still when I think about my future, I don’t picture him in it. It hurts me to say this but this is true. 

So recently, I told him I wanted a divorce. He cried his heart out again and after that, he left for a few days to give both of us some room to breathe and to think. All the time he was gone from our home – where I stayed – I felt so relieved. It felt right. Again, it pains me to say this, but it did. It was like for the first time in many years I was able to be myself. 

When after these few days of complete bliss my husband came back home, he was the sweetest imaginable. He expressed his love for me a thousand times even when I was firm about not wanting to continue in this marriage, and eventually, my confidence started to crumble and I was yet again overcome by love for this flawed but beautiful man that I share so much with. Hell, we even have kids together. So we’re trying again. Now, he stopped working for my business and stopped working altogether. This was a choice we made after a long and hard talk because when he did this work, he didn’t manage to do anything else. 15 hours of work per week (whereas I work around 50) was too much for him that he couldn’t even do half of the chores around the house and half of the taking care of our kids. Now he’s not working anymore and he does the whole stay-at-home dad thing. He’s slow to change, he needs a lot of time to adjust, and I can’t really say a lot about this now or so he claims; I should be patient for him to prove that he really will step up his game. But I fear that it is just too little, too late. 

For the longest time, I didn’t know if our relationship was as it should be. I tried to find reasons to leave, ammunition so that when people asked about it, I would be able to explain my choice. Now I know that there doesn’t have to be an explanation. If it doesn’t feel right, it’s not right. I’m still struggling though. I tell him how I feel and he keeps rying to win me back. I wouldn’t even want to be with someone who doesn’t really want to be with me.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Didn't I read this someplace else, do you have another thread?


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

aine said:


> Didn't I read this someplace else, do you have another thread?


Yes, as I said, the second posting is something I wrote in another thread.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

It's no wonder you want to be single, he behaves like a teenager. 

He can't work 15 hours a week
He can't be a stay at home dad

What can he do? 
There's being patient and there's being a door mat, he's walking all over you, you're being too kind. 

Time to put him into the real world for some adult training. 

Has he cheated in the past also? 

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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

He needs to start working on himself!! I would have him get to individual counseling so he mans up. Also, get him working again!! Even if it's 20 hours a week- NOT with you! This should help him some to stop relying on you so much.


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## Radch1988 (Jun 3, 2017)

I think you need to decide on what you want and take action. He is not going to change, he's proven that. 

Down the line you're either going to hate yourself for staying with him or end up doing something you may regret. 

Maybe if he gets a job and sticks it out, becomes less dependant on you, maybe you could work it out but it sounds to me like you have lost interest in trying to make it work and any efforts he puts in now will make no difference. 

Life is too short to be unhappy. If you've tried and tried to make it work including professional help and it's still not working you need to get out as the situation will just deteriorate. 

Yes it will hurt but it will probably do you BOTH the world of good long term. 

Take Care. 



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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

What do you want from the people here? Like, to help you conjure up enough willpower to stick with divorce? Je to convince you to stay? 

As I see it, you have made up your mind and. Ow you are letting him live a lie. It's up to you how long you want to do that for. Some people came do it forever.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He's not ever going to agree that divorce is a good idea. So if that's what you truly want, you'll have to ignore the crying and begging and all the "I'm a changed man" statements and move on. And he will fight you every step of the way because he's financially dependent on you and has no job prospects. He's been able to manipulate you into staying in the past and he knows what works so leaving him will be very hard. It obviously can be done but you will have to be really strong in order to do it.


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## Remee81 (May 24, 2017)

Stick to your resolve, I know u feel bad that he doesn't want this but u need to feel what it's like to be in a relationship that completes u. Find ur other half. He isn't it. Hell, be alone even that felt right to u. Ur caring nature is making u let ur life pass u by. Stop wasting it with him when it's never felt right. Don't listen to the above poster the point of this forum is support advice and encouragement. The last thing u need when u r already punishing urself for feeling what u do (stop that btw) is people being negative. Let us know how ur doing. Stand ur ground, get that divorce!


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

Thank you all for replying. I keep on trying to do it and I just can't make myself stick it out. Today we talked again and I told him that I appreciate everything he does, but that for me, the feeling is not magically coming back. He was devastated. He eventually went to lie down in bed (we were talking in the bedroom) and when I asked him what he was thinking, he said "nothing"; he felt dead inside. So I asked him what he needed and he said he needed an off switch. I hope this makes sort of clear what I'm dealing with. I find it very very hard to hurt him so much.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Since you have kids with him, I'd give him the opportunity to meet your needs, which he's not currently doing and is likely why you fell out of romantic love with him. I highly recommend you get the book His Needs, Her Needs today and read it with him. The book talks about how important it is to meet your spouse's top 10 needs to maintain feelings of love in the marriage, and how even after you've fallen out of love with your spouse, it is possible to get those feelings back if your spouse starts meeting those needs. 

Financial Support is a big need many women have, even if they work too. So the most important thing your husband can do to save his marriage right now would be to figure out the steps required to secure a good job and begin taking them immediately.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

googoodoll said:


> we love each other a lot, he is more attracted to me and I fulfil him more than the other way around.


Genuine love and attraction manifest in _action_. He has given _words and tears, but no action_. If he was filled with genuine love, he'd be working hard, both in and out of the home. He works 15 hours to your 50 and yet can't do 50% of the housework? This is dependence, not love. 



googoodoll said:


> the feeling is not magically coming back.


And he has done nothing to change that. He has made it quite clear he either can't or won't.
1. Not working outside the home.
2. Not pulling his fair share in the home
3. Being clingy
4. Crying rather than manning up when faced with his failures
None of these things are attractive to any woman, nor should they be. 



googoodoll said:


> I find it very very hard to hurt him so much.


Which is natural. You're human and you care for him. But there comes a time when you have to disengage from those feelings; that time is when it becomes obvious his own action/inaction is the source of his hurt. It appears you have reached that threshold. For years, it has been within his power to fix this, it has been explained to him, and still he makes no effort, other than a few nicely placed words, but talk is cheap. So are his tears. 

He is clearly holding you back. If you really think about it, you are holding him back as well; by allowing him to get away with being a clingy, dependent millstone, he has no incentive to change and he will never realize his potential either. You love him; love is more than just helping someone avoid pain--it is forcing them to grow when necessary, even if that means cutting them loose, no matter how painful it seems at the moment of truth.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

He'll never make this easy for you. If you want out then you're going to have to be strong enough to do it. If you can't then you'll be stuck with him the rest of your life.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

Let me get this straight: you fall for this guy as much as he fell for you, get married to him against your better judgment, fall out of love with him a few years later because he has no fire in his belly, decide to have kids with him anyway despite knowing it's a bad idea, and now, you're seriously thinking about divorce? 

This will divide your family and business. Your husband is entitled to half of your communal property, may be entitled to alimony, and there will be a custody battle for the kids. Are you ready to deal with this, OP?

How sure are you of this "special love" on the other side of divorce? Without relational experience outside of your marriage, I could imagine your idea of special love is more an ideal than reality. Be careful. Romance novels and movies are not representative of "other marriages". 

Marriage is hard work, full of peaks and valleys. If you leave your marriage for greener pastures, you might face the same problems in a new relationship. 

Again, be careful! And good luck


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## Tex X (May 17, 2017)

cc48kel said:


> He needs to start working on himself!! I would have him get to individual counseling so he mans up. Also, get him working again!! Even if it's 20 hours a week- NOT with you! This should help him some to stop relying on you so much.


Yep - ^^^^this exactly^^^^. Does he have decent guy friends? What is his relationship like with his Dad? 

He definitely needs to get himself together. You can make some recommendations and you definitely need to state your needs, but it's up to him to take action. A good therapist would do him worlds of good.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Tex X said:


> What is his relationship like with his Dad?


Ideally, his relationship with his dad is such that, if his dad was aware of the situation, his dad would be ready, willing, and able to put his boot square up junior's @$$.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

googoodoll said:


> Thank you all for replying. I keep on trying to do it and I just can't make myself stick it out. Today we talked again and I told him that I appreciate everything he does, but that for me, the feeling is not magically coming back. He was devastated. He eventually went to lie down in bed (we were talking in the bedroom) and when I asked him what he was thinking, he said "nothing"; he felt dead inside. So I asked him what he needed and he said he needed an off switch. I hope this makes sort of clear what I'm dealing with. I find it very very hard to hurt him so much.


Have you ever considered that he's playing you? That he's not really hurt, but instead has found exactly how to pull your strings? Seriously, he's acting like a kid.

What this reminds me of are interactions I had with my son and my neice when they were very young.

My niece was about 5 years old and was crying because I would not allow her to do something that she wanted to do. So she was just crying her little heart out. I'd seen her do this before and it usually got her what she wanted. I had her number. So I just looked at her and said something like "I know that works on your dad, but it's not going to work on me. So you can stop it now." She immediately stopped crying. She went 100% dry eyed and just looked at me. Then she smiled. She basically let me know that I was on to her little act.

My son also used to cry and throw fits when he did not get what he wanted. So I learned to just walk away when he would start this. I would just tell him that no one wanted to play with a little boy who throws fits. And I would walk to another room. And do you know what he did? After about half a minute, he would stop his fit. Walk to the room I was in, dramatically throw himself on the floor and continue his crying, kicking fit.

This is what your husband is doing. You are his mommy and he's learned to manipulate you like most little kids try to do their mommy. A smart mother does not put up with this nonsense.

You need to learn to not get sucked into his little emotional ploys.

Of course you don't want to be married to him. He's not a husband. He's a dependent, super needy child.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

How long have you been married to him?

Have you seen a lawyer to find out your rights in a divorce? Are you going to be stuck with alimony if you divorce him because he has not been working?


One thing you might want to do is to start putting yourself in a better postion. He wants to stay married to you? Tell him that the only way you will stay with him is if he gets into get a good paying job. And that he has to keep the job. If he loses the job and does not replace it immediately, you will file for divorce.

He will cry, throw a tantrum and act like a child. Do not fold. Look at his behavior for what it is, him trying to manipulate you. Just tell him that he has to do that or you are filing. Give him a dead line... say 3 months to have a job.

You seriously need to look back at the interactions that you have had with your husband and evaluate them. Look at these times through your minds eye and watch the scenes play out. Watch him acting in the manner that a child would act. What you describe here is the behavior of a child. So see it for what it is.

There is a good book that would most likely help you *Codependent No More & Beyond Codependency* by Melody Beattie

Codependency is when you put the destructive needs of someone else above your own needs. People who do this end up hurting themselves, like you are doing, in order to keep their relationship going.

Codependency is a very natural ration to a bad situation. We often see it in situations where one spouse is an alcoholic or drug user, the other spouse will keep doing things to keep fixing problems caused by the alcoholic/drug-user. And the more they do this, the worse the problem becomes.

The only way to stop this is to stop it. It's a learning process though for the co-dependent partner--that's you. You need to learn to not let him manipulate you. You need to learn to set your own healthy boundaries and keep them. You need to do this whether you stay married to him or not.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What's his relationship like with his parents? Do they live close by? Siblings?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Somewhere along the line he failed to develop and is stuck at the developmental age of an adolescent (any addictions, brain injuries or mental illness you are not telling us about?)

The reason you do not feel an attraction for him is because he is basically another one if your children.

Your reluctance to leave is understandable because it would be much akin to kicking out your child.

However like a parent must make a child leave the nest so that it can develop and become a functioning adult, so too must you do the same.

It is as much for him as for you no matter how painful it is to both of you. 

Your rationale for cooperative coparenting is sound, although it will be questionable as to how effective his responsible his parenting will be in the initial days of your separation.

He needs some serious therapy and life coaching to develop into an adult male. 

You have already paid a heavy price for your backsliding. Do not add to your debt.


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## katiecrna (Jan 29, 2016)

Wow this would drive me crazy if I was your husband. You need to be 100% in or 100% out. Anything else in my eyes is cruel. Your not being nice at all, your actually being incredibly mean.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, she's being a typical woman. Women usually are too guilty to leave a marriage unless there's a stronger reason like abuse. So they stay. And try. And wait. And try some more.


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## gswfan (Apr 14, 2017)

Are you going to have to sell your business and split the proceeds?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

KC,

She's having as much trouble leaving as you are. 





katiecrna said:


> Wow this would drive me crazy if I was your husband. You need to be 100% in or 100% out. Anything else in my eyes is cruel. Your not being nice at all, your actually being incredibly mean.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

Wow. Thanks to all of you again. This is really hard on me but it's also tremendously necessary. I've been reading up on what someone mentioned here about emotional abuse and I am torn apart by how much I recognize. Over the years I have received numerous belittling comments (or "jokes"), silent treatments, heard him tell me how worthless some of my friends were... and also his friends by the way. He hasn't got a really vital social network for himself maybe due to this. 

GOD HOW CAN IT BE THAT I NEVER SAW THIS BEFORE!

I think the best way to explain why I stayed so long and have kids with him, is because I didn't know this relationship wasn't normal. There have been numerous times when I literally thought: I wish I could take everything I know about us, up to every little interaction, and place it in the head of someone objective. Of course there never was a chance to do this and each time, he has convinced me that it was either me, or both of us, or he was sorry and it would never happen again.

In some weird way the kids are also the reason I'm finally ready to leave. When I first came to my firm decision around two months ago - the decision that made him promise and do all these changes - it was because I saw the way he treated our daughter. For instance when I came home from work (my office is elsewhere) she came up to me and was really needy of attention, which makes sense after I'd been away the whole day. He got mad - at a three year old! - because she then deprived him of attention after everything he'd done for her that day. I was dumbfounded and in that moment, I knew I wanted out. For my children too. 

Yesterday, after the episode I had described, he asked if we could go for a walk together, so we did. We talked about our future plans and he was so willing to make it work. Planning trips and outings and saying we'll go to couples therapy. I think all that is great but I just don't want it anymore. It truly is too late. He has had so many chances to better himself and every time I confront him about something, he is not entirely to blame. I brought it up that he didn't finish his education and that he hasn't had a real job in years, and he said: "Do you even know how hard that is on me?"

I'm just so sad. So sad and so tired. I think I'm going to put my foot down by reading him something like this

I want to divorce you. This is final and not up for negotiation. I want the best for our children and to me, this is not it. I want to work together with you on this transition and I will support you in your future endeavors, but we will be a parenting team, meaning we discuss things and both do our very best to make decisions based on their best interest. You do not have a say in whom I talk to, or anything else I do for that matter, other than when you feel it hurts the children. 

-- By the way, it might be true that he gets half of everything we own and maybe I will even have to pay alimony. If that's the case, it will be so. I'm pretty sure I can keep my business because it's intellectual property and not goods, so there are no assets. Other than that we have money because whereas he has a college debt which I'll probably get half of, once our house sells there will be around twice as much cash since I saved up for a sizable downpayment at that time to ensure we wouldn't have such a high mortgage. All in all I think I'll manage. It will be hard, but I have thought this through and I feel that it's worth it. I don't care about money anyway.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

katiecrna said:


> Wow this would drive me crazy if I was your husband. You need to be 100% in or 100% out. Anything else in my eyes is cruel. Your not being nice at all, your actually being incredibly mean.


If he said this to me, I would say: I'm 100% out. I guess he knows this too.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

_anonymous_ said:


> How sure are you of this "special love" on the other side of divorce? Without relational experience outside of your marriage, I could imagine your idea of special love is more an ideal than reality. Be careful. Romance novels and movies are not representative of "other marriages".
> 
> Marriage is hard work, full of peaks and valleys. If you leave your marriage for greener pastures, you might face the same problems in a new relationship.


I'm not sure at all about this special love, no. I've thought a lot about this and I realize that it doesn't really matter to me now. I'm willing to take the risk even if it means I could end up alone. Not looking for greener pastures. I don't know where you get that idea from.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GDoll,

Instead of 'I want to divorce you', perhaps 'I'm going to divorce you'. 

Separate from that modification I'd like to suggest an addition to your paragraph. If he argues or tries to guilt you, reply with:

Love - the real thing - is energizing and uplifting, it makes a person happy. I am clearly not energizing you - not even close. In fact, I feel like almost the opposite is often true. And when someone is uplifted - they don't feel compelled to put their partner down. So - I'm freeing you - and hoping we can both find real love and be energized and uplifted. 

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After that - don't debate. At all. Just tell him you are sorry he is sad, but hopeful he will find a better path after you two part. 

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Warning: he is going to try every trick in the book to keep you - being extra nice, extra helpful, maybe even striving for an average persons productivity level. Ands he is going to want to revisit this topic and wear you down. 

Don't engage. Offer marriage counseling - for the sole and express purpose of constructively uncoupling. And in MC warn him if he tries to hijack to recon - that you will end it. 

Outside MC - just tell him you aren't going to discuss it - as the decision is 'done and irrevocable'. 

Be careful though - watch for signs of him becoming a menace. He probably won't - but - caution is good. 




googoodoll said:


> Wow. Thanks to all of you again. This is really hard on me but it's also tremendously necessary. I've been reading up on what someone mentioned here about emotional abuse and I am torn apart by how much I recognize. Over the years I have received numerous belittling comments (or "jokes"), silent treatments, heard him tell me how worthless some of my friends were... and also his friends by the way. He hasn't got a really vital social network for himself maybe due to this.
> 
> GOD HOW CAN IT BE THAT I NEVER SAW THIS BEFORE!
> 
> ...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

googoodoll said:


> -- By the way, it might be true that he gets half of everything we own and maybe I will even have to pay alimony. If that's the case, it will be so. I'm pretty sure I can keep my business because it's intellectual property and not goods, so there are no assets. Other than that we have money because whereas he has a college debt which I'll probably get half of, once our house sells there will be around twice as much cash since I saved up for a sizable downpayment at that time to ensure we wouldn't have such a high mortgage. All in all I think I'll manage. It will be hard, but I have thought this through and I feel that it's worth it. I don't care about money anyway.


College debt is separate debt. It belongs to him alone. If he cannot pay it, all he has to do is call them every so often and they will give him a waiver. There is no way it should even be considered in the divorce except to list it as his separate debt.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> College debt is separate debt. It belongs to him alone. If he cannot pay it, all he has to do is call them every so often and they will give him a waiver. There is no way it should even be considered in the divorce except to list it as his separate debt.


Actually I don't think this is true where I live. I'm not from the US. But that's alright, you know. As I said to me it's not about the money. If it will help him make a new start, I'm happy to take on half his debt and give him half the money that comes from selling the house. I just want to make a fresh start too.
@MEM2020, thank you so much. This is a very valuable addition and the warning is also good to have. I'll need it. I'll keep it in mind.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It took me a good 15 years of increasing unhappiness to get to the point that I started researching WHY I was so unhappy. Like you, I just thought this was how relationships worked. Shut up, make him happy, eat your feelings, take care of everyone. Until you just can't do it anymore. Like they say, if only I knew then what I now know...

If nothing else, if he doesn't give up and keeps harassing you, use this: "I am leaving a 1% chance on the table that I will come back to this marriage. But it will require you living in a separate home, a massive, long-term culture shift from you, combined with long-term therapy on your part. And I'm talking two years at least before I'd believe that you really changed and would even consider dating you again. If you're not up to that, fine by me. I'm moving on either way."

That way he has something to work toward; you never know, he must might grow up. And if he doesn't, you're fine anyway because you've moved on.


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## bkyln309 (Feb 1, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> College debt is separate debt. It belongs to him alone. If he cannot pay it, all he has to do is call them every so often and they will give him a waiver. There is no way it should even be considered in the divorce except to list it as his separate debt.


This is not true (at least in my state).


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

googoodoll said:


> Not looking for greener pastures. I don't know where you get that idea from.


You are hoping for more in your marriage than is currently there. You are considering divorce, in the interest of getting what's missing elsewhere. If this were not the case, there would be no mention of "special love" and you portraying your husband's affections as shallow or even financially motivated. Not sure why it's so hard for you to admit that you want a better man than him.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

_anonymous_ said:


> This will divide your family and business. Your husband is entitled to half of your communal property, may be entitled to alimony, and there will be a custody battle for the kids. Are you ready to deal with this, OP?


If the genders were reversed most here would point this out to the "man" posting as you have.

So get the divorce, prepare for he getting spousal support, and move on.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

michzz said:


> If the genders were reversed most here would point this out to the "man" posting as you have.


Since OP is the wife, the husband will get screwed out of his parental rights in the divorce. He'll be lucky to have visitation rights, and most likely won't get custody (full or joint) of his kids. 

I actually think the potential of divorce here is a different situation than most, precisely because the genders are reversed. If you're suggesting I'm 'Captain Obvious', sorry to disappoint.



michzz said:


> So get the divorce, prepare for he getting spousal support, and move on.


There seems to be a majority of posters on TAM who are awfully hasty about divorce. Maybe many people on here have been in bad situations and divorce was their remedy. Who knows.

Once divorce is done it can't be undone, so I think it behooves those considering it to be thoughtful, especially when there are kids involved and no physical/substance abuse.

I've read OP's post, and I don't have tremendous confidence that effective communication has taken place between husband and wife. OP's husband cries about everything (as a way of evading problems, no doubt), and it seems like OP isn't moving much beyond his crying than posting here in frustration. 

Before divorce, I think OP and OP's husband need some marriage counseling as a safe forum for OP to communicate about her needs, and the counselor to back her up. OP's husband should afterward be given the chance to "man up" and a timeline for that permanent change to happen, with no excuses or crying tolerated. OP should start being no more Mrs. Nice Gal, but she must be fair about it.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

_anonymous_ said:


> Before divorce, I think OP and OP's husband need some marriage counseling as a safe forum for OP to communicate about her needs, and the counselor to back her up. OP's husband should afterward be given the chance to "man up" and a timeline for that permanent change to happen, with no excuses or crying tolerated. OP should start being no more Mrs. Nice Gal, but she must be fair about it.


I don't really disagree with this. However, based on my own experience of bending over backward for an extended period of time, doing MC, trying to "fix" things. All those things did not change a determined change of heart.

It was a mistake in thinking that i was protecting the children by staying with such a flawed person.

All situations are different of course. Honor a marriage vow by attempting to repair. But don't twist in the wind unnecessarily.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bkyln309 said:


> This is not true (at least in my state).


From your name, I assume that you state is NY.

Under New York law, there is an extremely important distinction in how the Courts will treat student loan debt when it is accumulated before versus during the marriage. Unless there is a pre or post nuptial agreement stating that the divorcing couple once signed off otherwise, New York treats all assets and debt accumulated prior to a marriage as separate property. Conversely, unless there is a pre or post nuptial agreement stating otherwise, any debt or assets accumulated during the marriage prior to the decision to separate and divorce. This is because New York follows the Equitable Distribution approach. The impact of this approach is laid out below.

When the student loan is from before the marriage, unless otherwise agreed by the parties in writing, such as through a prenuptial, postnuptial, or settlement agreement, the person who took out the loan for their education keeps the responsibility of paying for it after the divorce. They will typically have to assume all payments even if their spouse was helping them pay some or all of their payments prior to the divorce. While fair, this financial shift is quite the adjustment for many.

However, when the loans were taken out after the parties were married, deciding who has to pay them back can get far more complicated.

http://www.nyc-divorces.com/blog/2015/march/student-loans-and-divorce-who-pays-them-back-/


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

_anonymous_ said:


> michzz said:
> 
> 
> > If the genders were reversed most here would point this out to the "man" posting as you have.
> ...


We are going to MC in two weeks' time. I think it deserves a fair shot too. But as michzz has pointed out, right now I feel beyond fixing it and I can't deny this when it's so vivid and it gives me so much peace. It pains me like hell, but it also gives me peace. It's just really strange.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read up on 'walkaway wives.' It's a real eye opener.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GDoll,

What does he believe the goal of MC is? 






googoodoll said:


> We are going to MC in two weeks' time. I think it deserves a fair shot too. But as michzz has pointed out, right now I feel beyond fixing it and I can't deny this when it's so vivid and it gives me so much peace. It pains me like hell, but it also gives me peace. It's just really strange.


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## x598 (Nov 14, 2012)

OP

can you HONESTLY say you are not having any other sorts of feelings for another person?

when relationships slide into turmoil, its easy to look around (especially in today's social media age) and see things (real or not) other relationships have that yours doesn't. even more dangerous is confiding your problems to friends (or even worse a crush) who cheerlead and take you side and tell you what you want to hear.

these influences can be very powerful and super destructive. 

this is an anonymous forum. you can disappear with a click. I hear you talk about that "special love" you long for...is there someone out there that is causing these feelings? or maybe its the sort of thing looking around and seeing friends, relatives or coworkes and how happy they APPEAR to be and comparing your relationship to that?

based on what you have written....I agree your husband sounds VERY immature and has some serious growing up to do. and if kids weren't in the picture i'd say bolt as fast as you can. but since you choose to have kids with this man.....it not all about YOU anymore. from what you have written, there is more that can be done to salvage this relationship.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GDoll,

You will fare best in MC if you have a plan. And maybe even a script that supports your plan. 

In your shoes I'm pretty sure I would take them (H plus MC) through a short decision tree:
1. Is this an aptitude issue 
Or
2. An attitude issue

(1) Means he simply isn't capable of being the type man you want to go through life with
(2) Means he doesn't love you enough to do what's needed for the marriage to survive much less thrive

Two is compounded by the fact that you've been openly unhappy for a long time. And one simply means you are not compatible. 

In theory - two is fixable. But and this is a very big but - marital repair that only occurs at gunpoint - often feels hollow. 




googoodoll said:


> We are going to MC in two weeks' time. I think it deserves a fair shot too. But as michzz has pointed out, right now I feel beyond fixing it and I can't deny this when it's so vivid and it gives me so much peace. It pains me like hell, but it also gives me peace. It's just really strange.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

turnera said:


> Read up on 'walkaway wives.' It's a real eye opener.


I just did. There are some things familiar about it, but not most of it. My husband is very feminine in his communication; if ever something bothers me he will notice and we talk about it. I've never managed to keep anything hidden from him. What is true though is that despite all this talking over many years, my wish to divorce him has built up. 



MEM2020 said:


> GDoll,
> 
> What does he believe the goal of MC is?


To forget/bury the past and start afresh.



x598 said:


> OP
> 
> can you HONESTLY say you are not having any other sorts of feelings for another person?
> 
> ...


Yes, honestly. There has been, but that's been two years and while I haven't forgotten, there's been no contact. However when I tell people my story there are some who take my side and tell me what I want to hear, and others who take his side/play devil's advocate/etc. and don't tell me what I want to hear. Thing is, if I'm so sure what I want to hear - could I be convinced of the opposite? This is a serious question.



> this is an anonymous forum. you can disappear with a click. I hear you talk about that "special love" you long for...is there someone out there that is causing these feelings? or maybe its the sort of thing looking around and seeing friends, relatives or coworkes and how happy they APPEAR to be and comparing your relationship to that?
> 
> based on what you have written....I agree your husband sounds VERY immature and has some serious growing up to do. and if kids weren't in the picture i'd say bolt as fast as you can. but since you choose to have kids with this man.....it not all about YOU anymore. from what you have written, there is more that can be done to salvage this relationship.


Mostly this is based upon what I read online. I know the internet is not the real world, but again, I'd rather be alone than keep this up. I have friends and family who can offer me company and I'm very optimistic by nature so I choose to believe that there is a different kind of love. 

I'm going to MC, and I'll try to be open to any possibility. There's no denying the option I lean towards but I'll give it my best shot. 



MEM2020 said:


> GDoll,
> 
> You will fare best in MC if you have a plan. And maybe even a script that supports your plan.
> 
> ...


This is very valuable, thank you. I'm not entirely sure now if it's 1 or 2, or maybe a combination of both. His attitude right now seems to me like he will do what I ask him to, no matter what it is. When I had this crush I described above, two years ago, we went through a time when we discussed open marriage. He did not want it, could not be discussed, it was a big screaming NO. Now, at 'gunpoint', he told me yesterday night that he would be open to having an open relationship. I just can't decide if he's for real about all the things he's suddenly willing to do, or it's his fear of our marriage ending, that's behind this.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So far you've made a couple things clear:

1. He is remarkably adept at manipulating you (I am not putting you down - you strike me as an honest, good hearted person)
2. He couldn't do half the house work while putting in 15 hours a week at work

Two - would kill an average marriage. The only way to compensate for that level of laziness / disorganization would be to excel in some other area(s):
- Off the charts attractive AND good in bed 
- Off the charts charisma / lovableness 
- World class parent 

His primary ambition in life appears to be to ride the GDoll express - no sexual innuendo intended. It's why he probably isn't too keen on you having close friends. And I'm willin to bet your close friends / family ain't to keen on him.








googoodoll said:


> I just did. There are some things familiar about it, but not most of it. My husband is very feminine in his communication; if ever something bothers me he will notice and we talk about it. I've never managed to keep anything hidden from him. What is true though is that despite all this talking over many years, my wish to divorce him has built up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> So far you've made a couple things clear:
> 
> 1. He is remarkably adept at manipulating you (I am not putting you down - you strike me as an honest, good hearted person)
> 2. He couldn't do half the house work while putting in 15 hours a week at work
> ...


They're not overly keen on him, no. My family is not judging at all and they will accept most anyone so it's fine. My friends aren't really keen on him indeed. 

By the way none of it is off the charts. I've been thinking about the possibility, COULD he be that great man? I'm not so sure. Maybe, if I let him go. This is what it feels like. Give him a chance to do it on his own. Around two months ago, I had a long conversation with his mom about what I was experiencing. She recognized so much that it was scary. The way he depends on me is the same as he did on her. She said: "I was so happy when he found you because he really needed you [to be able to detach himself from me]." I wish she'd told me back then. But, I guess I wouldn't have wanted to hear it. There was only one way to find out, and that was to find out.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

googoodoll said:


> They're not overly keen on him, no. My family is not judging at all and they will accept most anyone so it's fine. My friends aren't really keen on him indeed.
> 
> By the way none of it is off the charts. I've been thinking about the possibility, COULD he be that great man? I'm not so sure. Maybe, if I let him go. This is what it feels like. Give him a chance to do it on his own. Around two months ago, I had a long conversation with his mom about what I was experiencing. She recognized so much that it was scary. The way he depends on me is the same as he did on her. She said: "I was so happy when he found you because he really needed you [to be able to detach himself from me]." I wish she'd told me back then. But, I guess I wouldn't have wanted to hear it. There was only one way to find out, and that was to find out.


It always concerns me when parents make statements like these.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

farsidejunky said:


> It always concerns me when parents make statements like these.


Would you explain why?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

googoodoll said:


> Would you explain why?


Because it indicates a lack of faith on the parents part that their child can manage their life on their own.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

farsidejunky said:


> It always concerns me when parents make statements like these.


lol, my daughter started dating a guy who turned out to be abusive, but she didn't know it at first. She met his mom and she said 'oh, thank goodness! You're going to be so good for him!'

lol, in retrospect, if you hear something like that, run!



> Because it indicates a lack of faith on the parents part that their child can manage their life on their own.


Or their knowledge that their kid is a screwup.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

turnera said:


> lol, my daughter started dating a guy who turned out to be abusive, but she didn't know it at first. She met his mom and she said 'oh, thank goodness! You're going to be so good for him!'
> 
> lol, in retrospect, if you hear something like that, run!


In hindsight, there were enough signs in my relationship as well. But, ya know, hindsight. 

I'm pretty sure now that my husband has shown abusive behavior and maybe still is. However I don't want to tell him all this because I don't want to despise him, don't want to fight over this, I don't want any of that. I just want to part ways and remain some sort of friends, so we can be good co-parents. 

Still not over this idea, as you can see. I wish our first MC session came sooner.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> Because it indicates a lack of faith on the parents part that their child can manage their life on their own.


Sometimes parents who do this lack faith for no good reason. 

And sometimes the parents know their child well and know that there is good reason to not have faith that the adult child can manage their life well on their own.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Assuming that your friends are not addicts, criminals, cheaters or crumby people that want to see you suffer, the chances if they don't like your partner - it is usually for good reason. 

How friends accept someone's partner is often a good gauge if that person is in your league or a good match for you or not.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

googoodoll said:


> Thank you all for replying. I keep on trying to do it and I just can't make myself stick it out. Today we talked again and I told him that I appreciate everything he does, but that for me, the feeling is not magically coming back. He was devastated. He eventually went to lie down in bed (we were talking in the bedroom) and when I asked him what he was thinking, he said "nothing"; he felt dead inside. So I asked him what he needed and he said he needed an off switch. I hope this makes sort of clear what I'm dealing with. I find it very very hard to hurt him so much.


This is also similar to what I experience, although my H is done trying to convince me at this point.

From the outside, your husband's antics sound manipulative. I'm sure he doesn't see it that way, but rather than step up and be a provider for his family he "needs an off switch" from the pain this has caused. 

My advice to you, based on what I am going through, is just tell yourself - this will be painful. This will make me feel guilty. He will appear (and be) miserable. FEEL THE PAIN and KEEP MOVING FORWARD anyhow. 

You don't need to have his conversation with him, but where has his concern for your pain/stress level been all these years that he's let you be 100% bread winner? Just because you don't complain that you "feel dead inside" does not make it okay for him to let you carry the load.

I tried to break up with my H a couple times at least 15 - 18 years ago. Before I married him. I failed because he rallied and I was the only one for him and we had a special love and blah blah blah bottom line I was too much of a chicken to say - NO. This love is NOT special. NOT special for me. I cannot feel romantic love for a man who is able to let me support him financially, especially when he has such expensive standards.

If you hang in there another 20 years, you'll end up bursting and leaving at some point anyhow. Like I am now at 51. Do it now and get it over with.

If he talks you out of your convictions don't give reasons, just say things like "I am sorry, I can't explain it but this just feels wrong to me." "I am sick to my stomach constantly." "I love you but I am just not happy. I feel it's affecting my health." Things he can cry about but not really argue over.

Sorry you're going through this - will read to the bottom of your thread now to see your current situation.

Best of luck. 

Just do it.


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## googoodoll (Mar 6, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> This is also similar to what I experience, although my H is done trying to convince me at this point.
> 
> From the outside, your husband's antics sound manipulative. I'm sure he doesn't see it that way, but rather than step up and be a provider for his family he "needs an off switch" from the pain this has caused.
> 
> ...


Thank you so, so much for this. The thing that really hit me was this: 

"Just because you don't complain, does not make it okay for him to let you carry the load."

Which doesn't only go for carrying the load but for pretty much everything. I've never been a complainer, really I haven't. I wanted my relationship to go smoothly. I wanted it so bad and I was the only one who was able to make that happen, by not complaining. So now I 'suddenly' complain a lot and do selfish things. I can see from his point of view that this change is like an earthquake. 

Another thing that struck me is this:

"I failed because he rallied and I was the only one for him and we had a special love and blah blah blah"

Yes, I've been there too. Trying to break up, hearing that our love is so special, chickening out of it. I've been there. I don't want to be there again. I'm still fighting against it every day. He will not let go without this fight. I'm sure your husband doesn't either. Keep fighting. I will too.


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