# sexless marriage of Sonya



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Hi. There was a conversation in the "Same Old Story" thread (starting post #286) that I was asked to move here. So that's what I do.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Ok, tell your story.

After seeing your other posts, I will start by asking you two questions - 

#1. Why do you think your husband is ok without having sex for the last years?

#2. What I am even more curious about is why are YOU ok without having sex for the past 6 years????

Ok I understand that your husband got fat and that you are no longer attracted to him. I get that. 

But why are YOU ok with living a life of celibacy just because he is fat?

Are you having sex with someone else? 

Why are you ok with this??


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Ok, tell your story.
> 
> After seeing your other posts, I will start by asking you two questions -
> 
> ...


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

It's not complicated for us. For #1, he never brings it up and doesn't make attempts. So he's ok with it for sure. For #2, it's not that important, more like ice cream, it's nice when it's there but not needed for my happiness. I'm glad I'm not addicted to it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Sonja said:


> It's not complicated for us. For #1, he never brings it up and doesn't make attempts. So he's ok with it for sure. For #2, it's not that important, more like ice cream, it's nice when it's there but not needed for my happiness. I'm glad I'm not addicted to it.


Interesting word choice, _addicted._

An ongoing sex drive is natural. Animals have a sex drive. Humans are Animals. Biologically, that's what it's all about, procreation and therefore sex. 

It's a natural, healthy biological drive. Not an addiction.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Livvie said:


> Interesting word choice, _addicted._
> 
> An ongoing sex drive is natural. Animals have a sex drive. Humans are Animals. Biologically, that's what it's all about, procreation and therefore sex.
> 
> It's a natural, healthy biological drive. Not an addiction.


Its stronger for some than others.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Its stronger for some than others.


I also find it notable that you used the word addicted in regards to something that is normal, healthy, pleasurable and bonding. 

Wouldn’t you prefer to have a close, pleasurable and intimate relationship with someone? 

I’m curious why neither one of you has stated any discontent with this arrangement.

How do you know that your husband isnt very dissatisfied with being roommates and is either miserable or isn’t even getting with someone else or planning his departure??

Would you even care if he were hooking up with someone else?

Would you even care if he left? 

If your answer to those questions is yes, then why aren’t you addressing it??

If your answer is no, then why not each go your own separate ways so you can each find someone you can have an intimate relationship with??


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Sonja said:


> Its stronger for some than others.


Truth.

Yet you chose the word 'addicted', not the poster who questioned it. 

Are you as negative about sex as it appears, or is there something being lost in translation?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

farsidejunky said:


> Truth.
> 
> Yet you chose the word 'addicted', not the poster who questioned it.
> 
> ...


Oh its enjoyable for sure. Anything that takes over the mind compulsively fits the definition of addiction.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Oh its enjoyable for sure. Anything that takes over the mind compulsively fits the definition of addiction.


So help me understand- if you say it’s enjoyable and you claim you aren’t addicted to it which would imply that you don’t see it as problematic, then why don’t you want to do it?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> For #1, he never brings it up and doesn't make attempts. So he's ok with it for sure.


How do you know he is ok with it other than he’s not asking you for it??

How do you know he’s not getting it elsewhere? Would you even care if he was?

How do you know he isn’t miserable and suffering in silence? Would you even care if he was?

How do you know he isn’t planning on leaving? And again, would you even care if he was?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> How do you know he is ok with it other than he’s not asking you for it??
> 
> How do you know he’s not getting it elsewhere? Would you even care if he was?
> 
> ...


He knows if he asked my answer would be no. I am not attracted. But he is a good life partner and warmth. If he gets fun elsewhere, I prefer not to know about it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Sonja said:


> He knows if he asked my answer would be no. I am not attracted. But he is a good life partner and warmth. If he gets fun elsewhere, I prefer not to know about it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.


If he got into shape would you hit it? Or did the moment with him pass and you’re done?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> If he got into shape would you hit it? Or did the moment with him pass and you’re done?


Good question. The attraction may well rekindle. But I feel attraction in my body when its there, and its not a decision or mind involved.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> He knows if he asked my answer would be no. I am not attracted. But he is a good life partner and warmth. If he gets fun elsewhere, I prefer not to know about it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.


I am not going to tell you how to run your relationship. To each their own. He apparently is a good partner. If he gets it somewhere else are you worried that he gets that connection somewhere else? Would it matter to you if he left you for someone he can have an intimate connection with?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> He knows if he asked my answer would be no. I am not attracted. But he is a good life partner and warmth. If he gets fun elsewhere, I prefer not to know about it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.


I find this very interesting, and surprised it works, but I guess it does. Good for you and your husband.
Sorry for all the questions, but I find this situation odd and out of the norm from my perspective. I would like to understand better.

Do you avoid other things you find enjoyable?
Do you think he gets sex outside of the marriage or maybe masturbates?
You say he never asks, do you really mean never? Is it possible he isn't physically attracted to you either?
Do you have non sexual ways of maintaining some kind of intimacy?
Do you guys even sleep in the same bed?

Sorry one more. When you got married were you expecting sex to disappear completely from your relationship?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Oh its enjoyable for sure. Anything that takes over the mind compulsively fits the definition of addiction.


ASAM definition of addiction
Addiction is a treatable, chronic medical disease involving complex interactions among brain circuits, genetics, the environment, and an individual’s life experiences. People with addiction use substances or engage in behaviors that become compulsive and often continue despite harmful consequences. 

You neglect harmful consequences.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Oh its enjoyable for sure. Anything that takes over the mind compulsively fits the definition of addiction.





Sonja said:


> Good question. The attraction may well rekindle. But I feel attraction in my body when its there, and its not a decision or mind involved.


OK so sex for you is not an addiction because it is not a decision of the mind.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Sonja said:


> Oh its enjoyable for sure. Anything that takes over the mind compulsively fits the definition of addiction.


Well, I think about food a lot! I love to cook. I love to eat. I'm not overweight. I'm not addicted. But animals need to eat to live.

Again with the word choice, this time _compulsively_.

I think about food a lot, many times a day (I'm now interested in an afternoon snack) but it's not an addiction, it's not a compulsion, it's BIOLOGY because I'm a living animal.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I am not going to tell you how to run your relationship. To each their own. He apparently is a good partner. If he gets it somewhere else are you worried that he gets that connection somewhere else? Would it matter to you if he left you for someone he can have an intimate connection with?


Whats truly important is that I feel becoming a bigger person, jump over my shadows, radiate warmth, prepare for an afterlife, feel growth in spirit and outlook. As long as my husband moves me that way, and I move him that way, its all good. If I ever felt I hold him back on the spiritual journey that is (his) life, I‘ll lovingly release him into freedom. That doesnt mean he needs to be an angel and I can let a lot of things slide, but the personal growth part is really Number 1.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Sonja said:


> Good question. The attraction may well rekindle. But I feel attraction in my body when its there, and its not a decision or mind involved.


So if there is a guy who is “your type” catches your eye your response is “meh”? Like you’re just done done and nothing going on in that department at all?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Livvie said:


> Well, I think about food a lot! I love to cook. I love to eat. I'm not overweight. I'm not addicted. But animals need to eat to live.
> 
> Again with the word choice, this time _compulsively_.
> 
> I think about food a lot, many times a day (I'm now interested in an afternoon snack) but it's not an addiction, it's not a compulsion, it's BIOLOGY because I'm a living animal.


I am not talking you out of it, we just share notes. Freedom is my primary value and I will sacrifice happiness for freedom. Any „need“ cuts freedom. I need air and water.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> So if there is a guy who is “your type” catches your eye your response is “meh”? Like you’re just done done and nothing going on in that department at all?


I have been attracted to maybe 4 men in my life.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Mr. Nail said:


> OK so sex for you is not an addiction because it is not a decision of the mind.


Its not an addiction cause it doesnt take up a lot of mental space and often, none


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Sonja said:


> I have been attracted to maybe 4 men in my life.


Thanks for answering all these questions. If it’s not obvious it’s pretty unusual to have someone like you on TAM and it’s great to have you answer questions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> I have been attracted to maybe 4 men in my life.


What will you do if/when #5 shows up. 

Will you have sex with him?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> What will you do if/when #5 shows up.
> 
> Will you have sex with him?


A typical male thought. Women dont think that way, me anyway.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> A typical male thought. Women dont think that way, me anyway.



I agree they don’t often think that way. 

..... but they often behave that way when it actually happens. 

I guessing you are around 35. Do you really think you will go another 45 years without ever being intimate with anyone again?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> He knows if he asked my answer would be no. I am not attracted. But he is a good life partner and warmth. If he gets fun elsewhere, I prefer not to know about it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.





Sonja said:


> A typical male thought. Women dont think that way, me anyway.


These answers seem contradictory to me...isn't your sexual desire based only on physical attraction? The first post I quoted makes it seem like you have sex only for purely physical attraction reasons, but then the second post I quoted sounds like you are saying women don't have sex because of physical attraction. 

What are you saying women don't think like men about exactly...?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Whats truly important is that I feel becoming a bigger person, jump over my shadows, radiate warmth, prepare for an afterlife, feel growth in spirit and outlook. As long as my husband moves me that way, and I move him that way, its all good. If I ever felt I hold him back on the spiritual journey that is (his) life, I‘ll lovingly release him into freedom. That doesnt mean he needs to be an angel and I can let a lot of things slide, but the personal growth part is really Number 1.


So are you in love with him in an emotional way, but you can reject physical intimacy with him based only on physical attraction?

You don't enjoy making love with THE PERSON he is that you love? You only desire to be intimate with the body he is in?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> So are you in love with him in an emotional way, but you can reject physical intimacy with him based only on physical attraction?
> 
> You don't enjoy making love with THE PERSON he is that you love? You only desire to be intimate with the body he is in?


Love is a word where people mean different things. My definition of love is to sense the light in the soul of another and be attracted to that light. In that sense, I definitely love my husband. 

Physically, no, the extra 20kg give him poor body shape and untoned. I feel no attraction, barely a kiss on the lips.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> These answers seem contradictory to me...isn't your sexual desire based only on physical attraction? The first post I quoted makes it seem like you have sex only for purely physical attraction reasons, but then the second post I quoted sounds like you are saying women don't have sex because of physical attraction.
> 
> What are you saying women don't think like men about exactly...?


Physical attraction is a must but not enough. That shouldnt be controversial.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I agree they don’t often think that way.
> 
> ..... but they often behave that way when it actually happens.
> 
> I guessing you are around 35. Do you really think you will go another 45 years without ever being intimate with anyone again?


Yes, 35. I dont know and have no answer to that.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

You say spiritual journey I assume this is some new age crap because Christianity and most religions are quite specific about people in marriages not withholding from each other.



Sonja said:


> Physical attraction is a must but not enough. That shouldnt be controversial.


Certainly isn't controversia for the shallow but there are many that are attracted to people because of the inside and not the outside.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> You say spiritual journey I assume this is some new age crap because Christianity and most religions are quite specific about people in marriages not withholding from each other.
> 
> 
> Certainly isn't controversia for the shallow but there are many that are attracted to people because of the inside and not the outside.


Correct. Both elements must be there.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Love is a word where people mean different things. My definition of love is to sense the light in the soul of another and be attracted to that light. In that sense, I definitely love my husband.
> 
> Physically, no, the extra 20kg give him poor body shape and untoned. I feel no attraction, barely a kiss on the lips.


This post certainly makes you out to be a very shallow and superficial person, in spite of your odd ball talk about light in the soul.

Does your husband feel the same way? Have you told him why you have zero interest in him sexually?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> This post certainly makes you out to be a very shallow and superficial person, in spite of your odd ball talk about light in the soul.
> 
> Does your husband feel the same way? Have you told him why you have zero interest in him sexually?


You are free to conclude what you want. It is what it is.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Love is a word where people mean different things. My definition of love is to sense the light in the soul of another and be attracted to that light. In that sense, I definitely love my husband.
> 
> Physically, no, the extra 20kg give him poor body shape and untoned. I feel no attraction, barely a kiss on the lips.


Since nobody has asked, what would happen if he did want sex again?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DTO said:


> Since nobody has asked, what would happen if he did want sex again?


That came up. If my body feels attraction, then
yes; otherwise, no.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Sonja said:


> It's not complicated for us. For #1, *he never brings it up and doesn't make attempts. So he's ok with it for sure. *For #2, it's not that important, more like ice cream, it's nice when* it's there but** not needed for my happiness *. I'm glad I'm not addicted to it.





Sonja said:


> *He knows if he asked my answer would be no. I am not attracted.* But he is a good life partner and warmth. If he gets fun elsewhere, I prefer not to know about it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.


You contradicted yourself here. You said that because he never brings it up or makes attempts that you are sure that he is okay with it. You followed up, in another post, by saying that he knows you would turn him down, because you aren't attracted to him. In reality, you don't know for sure if he's okay with it or not. Chances are that he is not.

Do you understand that marriage is about two people coming together for the good of them both? If he wants to make love to you, but you are unavailable due to not being physically attracted to him, you are okay with that as long as it doesn't bother you. What about your husband? Being a partner is about sharing, not about neglecting. It is highly unlikely that your husband is okay with you rejecting him.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sonja said:


> That came up. If my body feels attraction, then
> yes; otherwise, no.


So basically, even if he lost the weight you would not have sex if you didn't feel horny? Just wondering because hormones do diminish with age and a time might come where those feelings aren't there no matter what. You're still young.

I dunno. Not judging you, but if you'd reject someone and end a marriage for not wanting sex, that dies not seem loving.

Curious if you ever contemplated what would happen if you lost your drive.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DTO said:


> So basically, even if he lost the weight you would not have sex if you didn't feel horny? Just wondering because hormones do diminish with age and a time might come where those feelings aren't there no matter what. You're still young.
> 
> I dunno. Not judging you, but if you'd reject someone and end a marriage for not wanting sex, that dies not seem loving.
> 
> Curious if you ever contemplated what would happen if you lost your drive.


Yes. If I dont feel it at the moment, its not happening. As to loving, I dare you to provide a satisfactory definition of the word; philosophers have argued on that one for centuries, I provided mine.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Yes. If I dont feel it at the moment, its not happening. As to loving, I dare you to provide a satisfactory definition of the word; philosophers have argued on that one for centuries, I provided mine.


Perhaps a better phrasing would be "compatible with marriage".

You know with normative issues like these there never is a universal right answer. But most people agree basing sexual activity solely on your feelings is not treating your spouse well - certainly not as your equal / partner.

It is your prerogative though, and hopefully you accept your husband likewise doing as he sees fit. But be aware if you value having a spouse or partner you might regret this mindset.

As my XW (who had a similar mindset) how that worked out.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Words have meaning. That's why we have a dictionary, so people can look up a word and know what it means. If words don't have meaning to the speakers of a language, there would be no way to get your point across accurately. Communication would utterly break down. The word love has meaning. Look it up in the dictionary.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Sonja said:


> Yes. If I dont feel it at the moment, its not happening. As to loving, I dare you to provide a satisfactory definition of the word; philosophers have argued on that one for centuries, I provided mine.


I agree. Let us not forget the great philosophers Haddaway with their writings “What is Love”:

_No, I don't know why you're not fair
I give you my love, but you don't care
So what is right and what is wrong?
Gimme a sign_


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Physical attraction is a must but not enough. That shouldnt be controversial.


NOT "controversial"...contradictory. Meaning, you are saying two different things and calling them the same.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Anastasia6 said:


> ............... there are many that are attracted to people because of the inside and not the outside.


But none of those 'many' are men.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I don't know about all the psycho bubble and other species, but @Sonja have you think that maybe a woman would get your motor running sexually and not just a man? Or is some form or degree of asexuality what's going on, because 35 is at the peak of almost all women in this world, sexually speaking. Unless of course, you're just too confy with just being there with your non sexual (supposedly) husband, and couldn't care one way or another. There's people like that you know. Probably more than we think. Just being there and confy, that's all they need. Could this be you? Or ultimately, the right person that would tickle your fancy, hasn't ever show up,


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Cynthia said:


> Words have meaning. That's why we have a dictionary, so people can look up a word and know what it means. If words don't have meaning to the speakers of a language, there would be no way to get your point across accurately. Communication would utterly break down. The word love has meaning. Look it up in the dictionary.


But that dictionary was written by a white Anglo-Saxon Christian, and they no longer get to tell the rest of the world how to act and what to think.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> NOT "controversial"...contradictory. Meaning, you are saying two different things and calling them the same.


There is a notion generally in logic on „necessary but not sufficient conditions“. Physical attraction is a necessary but not sufficient condition for me to have intercourse.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> But that dictionary was written by a white Anglo-Saxon Christian, and they no longer get to tell the rest of the world how to act and what to think.


Dictionaries dont capture abstract concepts. There is a an age old debate also what „justice“ means, or even „peace“. The answer that the answer is in the Dictionary is a strange notion. On Love, people from Aristotle onward had different ideas. My definition is that Love happens when I sense the light in the soul of a person. That person can be 10 or 90, male or female. Love is separate from attraction and the like. Thats how I perceive the world. You are free to perceive it differently.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Love is a word where people mean different things. My definition of love is to sense the light in the soul of another and be attracted to that light. In that sense, I definitely love my husband.
> 
> Physically, no, the extra 20kg give him poor body shape and untoned. I feel no attraction, barely a kiss on the lips.


I don't feel any warmth or depth in your words...I feel like I'm talking to "Alexa" or one of those internet voice responders. 

I am NOT judging you...in fact, I hope this works out for you and your family, but I simply cannot understand you.
I need much more emotional connection, and from a true partner, I need to give and receive mutual acceptance of ALL of them and me, including all physical imperfections.

Because we are not just souls of light - we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. To me, your judgement against him sounds very unenlightened and unloving. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm just remarking on what I notice.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> I don't know about all the psycho bubble and other species, but @Sonja have you think that maybe a woman would get your motor running sexually and not just a man? Or is some form or degree of asexuality what's going on, because 35 is at the peak of almost all women in this world, sexually speaking. Unless of course, you're just too confy with just being there with your non sexual (supposedly) husband, and couldn't care one way or another. There's people like that you know. Probably more than we think. Just being there and confy, that's all they need. Could this be you? Or ultimately, the right person that would tickle your fancy, hasn't ever show up,


I share from my world view and experience. That your world view differs is perfectly fine, to dismiss my reality, that I freely share, as psycho bubble, is inappropriate.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't feel any warmth or depth in your words...I feel like I'm talking to "Alexa" or one of those internet voice responders.
> 
> I am NOT judging you...in fact, I hope this works out for you and your family, but I simply cannot understand you.
> I need much more emotional connection, and from a true partner, I need to give and receive mutual acceptance of ALL of them and me, including all physical imperfections.
> ...


Sharing has value, understanding is not needed. The secrets of the universe or individual souls is not limited to my imagination, and less so, to my understanding. I‘d have to be God.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Sharing has value, understanding is not needed. The secrets of the universe or individual souls is not limited to my imagination, and less so, to my understanding. I‘d have to be God.


All of your answers and sharing are all intellectual...however, I put equal value in sharing done from an emotional perspective. Understanding IS needed for me, and I don't trust any understanding I apparently gain without that perspective included.

But that is ME, I also believe you are free to follow you path.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> All of your answers and sharing are all intellectual...however, I put equal value in sharing done from an emotional perspective. Understanding IS needed for me, and I don't trust any understanding I apparently gain without that perspective included.
> 
> But that is ME, I also believe you are free to follow you path.





LisaDiane said:


> Because we are not just souls of light - we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. To me, your judgement against him sounds very unenlightened and unloving. I don't mean that in a bad way, I'm just remarking on what I notice.


I cannot believe this is happening. I said from the start only one thing: I am not physically attracted to my husband and so I dont sleep with him. For this I now get seriously ganged up on: I am called an Alexa, I am called shallow, I am called unloving. From men and WOMEN! LisaDiane, you are a WOMAN and you dont „understand“ why I am not opening my legs for a man when I am not attracted?What are we? 1955? This is seriously disturbing!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

have you ever experienced sincere, burning desire and ever had hot monkey sex even with another man? 

Is your current husband your first lover or have you been with others?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Sonja said:


> I cannot believe this is happening. I said from the start only one thing: I am not physically attracted to my husband and so I dont sleep with him. For this I now get seriously ganged up on: I am called an Alexa, I am called shallow, I am called unloving. From men and WOMEN! LisaDiane, you are a WOMAN and you dont „understand“ why I am not opening my legs for a man when I am not attracted?What are we? 1955? This is seriously disturbing!


I'm not the poster you were talking to, but don't you understand that marriage is a sexual relationship?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I cannot believe this is happening.





Sonja said:


> This is seriously disturbing!


Nah. Not all that disturbing or unbelievable. This is an online forum, so you'll get all types of responses. If you don't like what you read, you can put a poster on "ignore." If you don't know how to do that, one of the moderators here can help you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> I cannot believe this is happening. I said from the start only one thing: I am not physically attracted to my husband and so I dont sleep with him. For this I now get seriously ganged up on: I am called an Alexa, I am called shallow, I am called unloving. From men and WOMEN! LisaDiane, you are a WOMAN and you dont „understand“ why I am not opening my legs for a man when I am not attracted?What are we? 1955? This is seriously disturbing!


I can’t speak for Lisadiane,, but speaking for myself as a man, I understand not wanting to have sex with someone you do not find appealing. I get that as I do not want to have sex with anyone that I am not attracted to either. I think we all get that. 

What I don’t get is why you don’t seem to want to have a close and intimate relationship with anyone. 

I also don’t understand why your husband is apparently ok with this (unless he is with someone else, or he is as detached as you) 

I get why you don’t want to get down with some fat dude that your not attracted to. What I find very odd is that you have remained with a fat dude for 6 years that you have no intimacy with and find it really odd he hasn’t mentioned it or tried anything for 6 years. 

If it works for both of you, great. 

But I have the feeling you’re going to come home some day and find a note pinned to the refrigerator with his forwarding address to send his mail to where he is now living with his new partner and their new family.

Or you are going to meet some guy that does trip your trigger and you’ll be the one leaving the note on the refrigerator. 

I’m not sure which is sadder - a break up where there is broken hearts, crying and begging and tears and drama.........or one where there isn’t.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> I cannot believe this is happening. I said from the start only one thing: I am not physically attracted to my husband and so I dont sleep with him. For this I now get seriously ganged up on: I am called an Alexa, I am called shallow, I am called unloving. From men and WOMEN! LisaDiane, you are a WOMAN and you dont „understand“ why I am not opening my legs for a man when I am not attracted?What are we? 1955? This is seriously disturbing!


You are completely misunderstanding my posts if I am making you feel ganged up on. I even SAID TO YOU that I don't mean anything in a bad way...I tried to word everything as respectfully as I could. But I cannot agree with you or your perspective, because mine is SO different and I don't understand you at all. 

That doesn't mean I believe I am right, we are just very different. I said to you, just as you said to others - I believe you are free to follow your beliefs, I don't believe mine are right for you, OR "better" in any way...mine are just better for ME.

To answer your question -- NO, what I don't understand is what is driving your lack of attraction. My way of being attracted to a man is very different than it is for you - NOT better or worse, just DIFFERENT.


----------



## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> why I am not opening my legs for a man when I am not attracted?What are we? 1955? This is seriously disturbing!


I honestly believe on her part she like most of us are just trying to understand you. Obviously the confusion goes both ways based on your last few sentences. 

Some people will always jump on you when in an online forum but at this point most see you as sort of a curiosity and wish to understand.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I'm not the poster you were talking to, but don't you understand that marriage is a sexual relationship?


Not necessarily. Marriage is a legal construct for the rearing and provisioning of children and for legal means for property, assets and resources to pass down through family bloodlines. 

Sex can be just the mechanism to produce offspring. 

In a lot of traditional cultures with arranged marriage, it is simply the business of merging families, pooling assets and assuring the next generation. 

She hasn’t mentioned if this was an arranged marriage or not, but it wouldn’t shock me if it was.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I'm not the poster you were talking to, but don't you understand that marriage is a sexual relationship?


If marriage was supposed to be a sexual relationship, most married men would leave.
I've always viewed marriage as a business relationship, the business being raising children.
Sex I can get anywhere, and it's generally a lot cheaper and more frequent than in a marriage.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Sonja said:


> I share from my world view and experience. That your world view differs is perfectly fine, to dismiss my reality, that I freely share, as psycho bubble, is inappropriate.


I'm sorry, but could you enlighten me and direct me to where in my post did I express any contrary point of view to your way of thinking?
All I did was to give you different scenarios which could possible be what might be your situation. When I mentioned psycho babble and species it was not just at what you have been referring to, but to what others are saying. So what I meant with that was that there were a lot of "words" being thrown around in this thread, but that the possibilities to your dilemma was what I wanted to enumerate to you. I guess I did not expressed myself sufficient, or you took it as an attack directed to you.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> If marriage was supposed to be a sexual relationship, most married men would leave.
> I've always viewed marriage as a business relationship, the business being raising children.
> Sex I can get anywhere, and it's generally a lot cheaper and more frequent than in a marriage.


Well if two of you male posters are now asserting that sex isn't necessary in a marriage, why don't all of the men on this forum just stop complaining about the lack of sex in their marriage?

Because now, according to two men in a row, a marriage really doesn't have to be a sexual relationship. 

I aleays thought it should be, but I'll move forward with my more enlightened view. Sex is not necessary in a marriage. Women: you heard it here.


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## johngo (Sep 18, 2021)

Livvie said:


> Well if two of you male posters are now asserting that sex isn't necessary in a marriage, why don't all of the men on this forum just stop complaining about the lack of sex in their marriage?
> 
> Because now, according to two men in a row, a marriage really doesn't have to be a sexual relationship.
> 
> I aleays thought it should be, but I'll move forward with my more enlightened view. Sex is not necessary in a marriage. Women: you heard it here.


You need to discount those two posters. Obviously both just view marriage in a more secular non personal thing. I think it is becoming more common also. People who come together just to have kids but are pretty much separate in everything else. Some partners keep their finances even separate.

But count me as a traditionalist. I think in the type of marriage I have and prefer everything is shared (money, kids, stuff, decisions, sex, religion, etc...) Everyone is free to live the way they want to. But I always wanted the traditional union wheer it is a WE instead of a me and the other sort of thing. And I think for people like me,being the man,I want sex to be a big part of my marriage. I really don't want to go around having sex with all kinds of people. I would always prefer to have sex with my wife though like most men I'll admit it doesn't occur near as often as I would like. 

Talking to my wife and my a few other women. I think it is pretty common for a man to want sex about every other day while for the women its more like once every week or two. I think for men it is like I'm on a clock. The urge is frequent. For a lot of women sex is something that they could be just fine not having for long periods of time. They like sex when they have it but it isn't a need like it is for most men.

So I read that in most sucessful marriages there is a compromise. Men won't get it as much as they want and women will have more sex than they ordinarily would have if left alone.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

johngo said:


> You need to discount those two posters. Obviously both just view marriage in a more secular non personal thing. I think it is becoming more common also. People who come together just to have kids but are pretty much separate in everything else. Some partners keep their finances even separate.
> 
> But count me as a traditionalist. I think in the type of marriage I have and prefer everything is shared (money, kids, stuff, decisions, sex, religion, etc...) Everyone is free to live the way they want to. But I always wanted the traditional union wheer it is a WE instead of a me and the other sort of thing. And I think for people like me,being the man,I want sex to be a big part of my marriage. I really don't want to go around having sex with all kinds of people. I would always prefer to have sex with my wife though like most men I'll admit it doesn't occur near as often as I would like.
> 
> ...


Rofl I bet I know who you are.


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## johngo (Sep 18, 2021)

Sonya,

I agree there must be some level attraction as part of having sex. But that I think for most people fluctuates with the strength of a person's urges. People tend to overlook a lot of physical shortcomings when they want to have sex. If I had to guess it sounds like sex for you just isn't all that important. And on the surface there is nothing wrong with that. 

But I'm more concerned with your husband. Either he has ED, is getting it from somewhere else, or from himself. He might be quietly miserable. 

And if you husband losing a little bit of weight might make him seem more attrative to you I would suggest making a game of it. I know I'd drop a pound a day if I could have sex everyday... That would be a real incentive. Heck I might starve myself to death.... lol.

I don't think, as a women, your lack of urge to have sex is really all that uncommon. I'm only pointing out that this is a lot stranger for men. If you have an agreed upon open marriage it might not be a problem. And hey, maybe he has a low drive as well and it isn't a problem. I would just say you might want to observe him a bit. He could be horribly depressed. I also know begging for sex itself can cause low self esteem. So maybe he has just given up and again is quietly suffering for the sake of his love for you. 

I realize lots of people will have differing opinions on this but sometimes we all have to do some things in a marriage that we would rather not do.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> have you ever experienced sincere, burning desire and ever had hot monkey sex even with another man?
> 
> Is your current husband your first lover or have you been with others?


I had one prior boyfriend.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Livvie said:


> I'm not the poster you were talking to, but don't you understand that marriage is a sexual relationship?


No, my marriage vows do not include having to open my legs unwillingly to a seriously overweight male.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Nah. Not all that disturbing or unbelievable. This is an online forum, so you'll get all types of responses. If you don't like what you read, you can put a poster on "ignore." If you don't know how to do that, one of the moderators here can help you.


The disturbing part is not that women willingly open their legs to men they feel unattracted to. Rather, the disturbing part is getting called „shallow“ and „unloving“ when I dont do that. Yes thats disturbing.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I can’t speak for Lisadiane,, but speaking for myself as a man, I understand not wanting to have sex with someone you do not find appealing. I get that as I do not want to have sex with anyone that I am not attracted to either. I think we all get that.
> 
> What I don’t get is why you don’t seem to want to have a close and intimate relationship with anyone.
> 
> ...


It is difficult to find a partner who is a mirror. Where that mirror constantly forces me to see aspects of myself I dont otherwise see. It would be exceedingly difficult to find another person like this. So I stay with him. If he wishes to stay is up to him. If he thinks that he finds a better home for his soul with another partner, he is free to go.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> The disturbing part is not that women willingly open their legs to men they feel unattracted to. Rather, the disturbing part is getting called „shallow“ and „unloving“ when I dont do that. Yes thats disturbing.


Interesting, I wouldn't expect someone with the demeanor you have shown to be so ruffled so easily. I still say she was expressing her lack of understanding. It wasn't an attack.


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## johngo (Sep 18, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Rofl I bet I know who you are.


lol, I seriously doubt it. And no I don't know you or Sonya or anyone on this site.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

johngo said:


> Sonya,
> 
> I agree there must be some level attraction as part of having sex. But that I think for most people fluctuates with the strength of a person's urges. People tend to overlook a lot of physical shortcomings when they want to have sex. If I had to guess it sounds like sex for you just isn't all that important. And on the surface there is nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your mature reply. I think about this.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

johngo said:


> lol, I seriously doubt it. And no I don't know you or Sonya or anyone on this site.


It's all good. It's just your writing style and sentence structure seem awfully familiar.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Not necessarily. Marriage is a legal construct for the rearing and provisioning of children and for legal means for property, assets and resources to pass down through family bloodlines.
> 
> Sex can be just the mechanism to produce offspring.
> 
> ...


Not arranged. I am an Austrian woman who married a Quebecois and living in Montreal.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Thank you for your mature reply. I think about this.


He has a lot of self control in his delivery.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> He has a lot of self control in his delivery.


I like that. Self discipline is among my most cherished virtues.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I like that. Self discipline is among my most cherished virtues.


It shows in your writing. With a few exceptions.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Interesting, I wouldn't expect someone with the demeanor you have shown to be so ruffled so easily. I still say she was expressing her lack of understanding. It wasn't an attack.


I was under attack from several people effectively for not sleeping with a man to who I am unattracted. It is healthy to let this out to set boundaries. It was healthier to let it out than to defend myself. Its one thing to share and get questions, its another to be put into the defensive by several. Now that I set boundaries, I feel free to breathe again.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> It shows in your writing. With a few exceptions.


I am not an angel. Its true I have not thought carefully to have no sex life forever. That would be a problem and I have no immediate answer.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I was under attack from several people effectively for not sleeping with a man to who I am unattracted. It is healthy to let this out to set boundaries.


Meh, some had attacked. Like I said, most are curious and asking honest questions while and giving you their observations. Most don't have malicious intent, just unsure how to approach this with someone with such a unique outlook.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Meh, some had attacked. Like I said, most are curious and asking honest questions while and giving you their observations. Most don't have malicious intent, just unsure how to approach this with someone with such a unique outlook.


It is difficult to suspend judgment when talking to people. I know that. It is a sign of great maturity.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> It is difficult to suspend judgment when talking to people. I know that. It is a sign of great maturity.


Everyone is biased, we see things through our own eyes. 
You seem to put a lot of importance on what you see as maturity.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Everyone is biased, we see things through our own eyes.
> You seem to put a lot of importance on what you see as maturity.


Yes I do. I do apply a set of standards important to me. And I like people who likewise apply their own standards. Its healthy to filter who are the true good conversation partners.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Curious, why did you fid your way to TAM?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Curious, why did you fid your way to TAM?


I want a sounding board that motivates me to organise my thoughts and feelings. That is hard to do alone. In return, I answer questions openly. I do not look for advice or evaluations.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I want a sounding board that motivates me to organise my thoughts and feelings. That is hard to do alone. In return, I answer questions openly. I do not look for advice or evaluations.


How about you? What motivates you? Its an investment of your life energy, after all.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I want a sounding board that motivates me to organise my thoughts and feelings. That is hard to do alone. In return, I answer questions openly. I do not look for advice or evaluations.


You have to know when your thoughts are put out there you will be evaluated. Even more so when your thought processes are so different from most.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> You have to know when your thoughts are put out there you will be evaluated. Even more so when your thought processes are so different from most.


The most mature people will be curious and consciously stay curious. Curiosity stops with evaluation, a person who evaluates thinks (s)he has sufficient information to do so.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> The most mature people will be curious and consciously stay curious. Curiosity stops with evaluation, a person who evaluates thinks (s)he has sufficient information to do so.


I think curiosity has nothing to do with maturity. Children are the most curious of all people. 
Evaluation isn't necessarily the end of being inquisitive, you can have evolving thoughts based on new information.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I have a few questions, since I'm not familiar with your story.

Did you ever feel desire for your husband? Were you attracted to him at one time?

You mentioned he gained weight. Are there other things besides his weight gain that make him unattractive to you?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I think curiosity has nothing to do with maturity. Children are the most curious of all people.
> Evaluation isn't necessarily the end of being inquisitive, you can have evolving thoughts based on new information.
> [/
> 
> I





uphillbattle said:


> I think curiosity has nothing to do with maturity. Children are the most curious of all people.
> Evaluation isn't necessarily the end of being inquisitive, you can have evolving thoughts based on new information.


Is that your experience? Mine is that it is hard to live with the unknown and suspend judgment, but its the fairer choice towards my conversation partner.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> I have a few questions, since I'm not familiar with your story.
> 
> Did you ever feel desire for your husband? Were you attracted to him at one time?
> 
> You mentioned he gained weight. Are there other things besides his weight gain that make him unattractive to you?





Prodigal said:


> I have a few questions, since I'm not familiar with your story.
> 
> Did you ever feel desire for your husband? Were you attracted to him at one time?
> 
> You mentioned he gained weight. Are there other things besides his weight gain that make him unattractive to you?


No, the weight gain is it.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

johngo said:


> But count me as a traditionalist. I think in the type of marriage I have and prefer everything is shared (money, kids, stuff, decisions, sex, religion, etc...)


I think you mean you're a modernist ....... traditional marriage has very defined roles for the men and the women.
Roles that fit more with my way of thinking outside of the feminised western world.
The idea of me sharing my finances with anyone is abhorrent to me.
I pay my wife a monthly wage (you might like to call it housekeeping), if she wants more she has to earn it herself.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> No, my marriage vows do not include having to open my legs unwillingly to a seriously overweight male.


My wife only made one marriage vow ........ to serve me.
And I only made one marriage vow .......... to provide for her.
Not that I ever make her serve me, there are plenty of women around more than willing.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> My wife only made one marriage vow ........ to serve me.
> And I only made one marriage vow .......... to provide for her.
> Not that I ever make her serve me, there are plenty of women around more than willing.


She will serve you as long as you are attractive to her.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> She will serve you as long as you are attractive to her.


She will serve me as long as I provide for her.
I'm not sure that any 65 year old man could be attractive to a fertile woman.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> She will serve me as long as I provide for her.
> I'm not sure that any 65 year old man could be attractive to a fertile woman.


How old are you and your wife? Does she work outside the house for money?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> I'm sorry, but could you enlighten me and direct me to where in my post did I express any contrary point of view to your way of thinking?
> All I did was to give you different scenarios which could possible be what might be your situation. When I mentioned psycho babble and species it was not just at what you have been referring to, but to what others are saying. So what I meant with that was that there were a lot of "words" being thrown around in this thread, but that the possibilities to your dilemma was what I wanted to enumerate to you. I guess I did not expressed myself sufficient, or you took it as an attack directed to you.


I‘ll re-read your response. Thanks for replying.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> How old are you and your wife? Does she work outside the house for money?


I'm 65 and retired, and she's 40 and runs 'numbers' part-time for a local gang.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> I don't know about all the psycho bubble and other species, but @Sonja have you think that maybe a woman would get your motor running sexually and not just a man? Or is some form or degree of asexuality what's going on, because 35 is at the peak of almost all women in this world, sexually speaking. Unless of course, you're just too confy with just being there with your non sexual (supposedly) husband, and couldn't care one way or another. There's people like that you know. Probably more than we think. Just being there and confy, that's all they need. Could this be you? Or ultimately, the right person that would tickle your fancy, hasn't ever show up,


I dont know and I have no immediate answer.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I'm 65 and retired, and she's 40 and works part-time for a local gang.


Whats the gang‘s specialty?


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Whats the gang‘s specialty?


Extortion, protection and drugs (meth) ...... I prefer her not to participate.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Extortion, protection and drugs (meth) ...... I prefer her not to participate.


How well do they pay her?


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> How well do they pay her?


I've never asked, and she would probably just lie as an answer if I did.
Although my sending her to high school and then university allowed her to progress from a foot soldier to management.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't find anything strange in @Sonja's relationship with her husband. They both seems to be on the same spiritual level (albeit we don't know much about the husband, apart from being overweight and in agreement with the situation), so if two people in a relationship agree, there is no abuse. Maybe the husband is getting sex somewhere else, but if that's the agreement or the wife turns a blind eye, so what? It's good to see spiritual people in this world.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

was the sex ever any good with your husband? Was he ever able to give you orgasms previously?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> was the sex ever any good with your husband? Was he ever able to give you orgasms previously?


It was enjoyable though not orgasmic.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I don't find anything strange in @Sonja's relationship with her husband. They both seems to be on the same spiritual level (albeit we don't know much about the husband, apart from being overweight and in agreement with the situation), so if two people in a relationship agree, there is no abuse. Maybe the husband is getting sex somewhere else, but if that's the agreement or the wife turns a blind eye, so what? It's good to see spiritual people in this world.


Thank you! You describe things well and yes I’d turn a blind eye.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> I've never asked, and she would probably just lie as an answer if I did.
> Although my sending her to high school and then university allowed her to progress from a foot soldier to management.


Your wife part-time manages a narco-meth-extortion gang. Talented woman.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> I have been attracted to maybe 4 men in my life.


Lmao.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I’m a-thinkin that most people who LOVE their spouse, overlook changes in their appearance to a large degree because they are seeing them through rose colored glasses.

Your rose colored glasses sound like they never existed, and your cold way of describing “opening your legs” to your own husband implies more disdain than love for him.

You feel ganged up on and upset about anyone saying something negative about your thoughts, do apparently you’re not a robot. So I’m wondering about your feelings for your husband and seemingly apathy about his happiness. It’s not love you have for him if you are apathetic to his feelings.

My premise is this: A person is not apathetic toward someone they love. They know more about their spouse’s needs and desires than you purport, if they truly see their “spiritual light” as you say.

That being said, if you’ve only found 4 men in your life attractive, you are indeed a bird of a different feather and probably few will understand your point of view as clearly as they’d Need, to offer you any thoughts that you might find useful.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> I’m a-thinkin that most people who LOVE their spouse, overlook changes in their appearance to a large degree because they are seeing them through rose colored glasses.
> 
> Your rose colored glasses sound like they never existed, and your cold way of describing “opening your legs” to your own husband implies more disdain than love for him.
> 
> ...


Oh the thread is useful to me in that some ask good questions that probe with curiosity, and I thank those. I am not interested in evaluations. If someone agrees or not with my world view is irrelevant. Thoughtful probing questions are relevant. I have received several of those, with thanks.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> Oh the thread is useful to me in that some ask good questions that probe with curiosity, and I thank those. I am not interested in evaluations.


Indeed, nor are you interested in the desires and happiness of your own husband.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Indeed, nor are you interested in the desires and happiness of your own husband.


That is your valuation and you are free to do so. Your evaluation means that a woman must sleep with her husband if she wants to or not. And it means exactly that.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> That is your valuation and you are free to do so. *Your evaluation means that a woman must sleep with her husband if she wants to or not. * And it means exactly that.


I don’t think that at all. It just doesn’t seem like you’ve asked him how he feels or care how he feels about no sex.
I agree that he should say something if not satisfied, and when you told him the weight was a thing, make an attempt to do something about it. But you’re not sure if even if back to 70 kilos you’d be attracted, correct?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> That is your valuation and you are free to do so. * Your evaluation means that a woman must sleep with her husband if she wants to or not.* And it means exactly that.


I think you oversimplify this, at least in some cases. I am sure you have had your share of run-ins with guys that just want to wet their willy and will try every trick in the book to make that happen. This is not always the case.

I won't attempt to speak for all men but I connect emotionally when I have sex with a woman I love. It's not just an urge to get off but an urge to feel closer to this person I have intense feelings for. When sex went severely down hill it wasn't the lack of it that was my biggest issue but the fact that she thought because it didn't bother her it wasn't her problem. I view her problems as mine, and am always willing to help her tackle any problem together if possible. Now for you I am betting you think I thought she should just bend over when ever I had the urge but it's not. It's figuring out what the issues may be that are causing the lack of desire that she once had and seeing if we can work on them. In our case there were many factors including mental illness so it is a different road to hoe than many but we have worked out many issues. Her effort that I see in dealing with this illness and keeping the fallout from the people around her never ceases to amaze me. Her effort to keep intimacy going in our relationship makes me feel closer to her and a love for her that I never thought possible. Does this mean I get what ever suits my fancy whenever I want? No. But that isn't even close to what matters, it's her showing that she cares about what I need to have a fulfilling relationship and not just what she needs.

Now you are one up on most LD spouses in regards to this issue, you have identified the issue you have with intimacy and conveyed it to your husband. It is entirely possible that he may not care about it, for many possible reasons. I would suggest you at some point touch base with him on this and make sure he isn't building resentment over it. If you do love him I would imagine it would be hurtful to be blindsided by divorce papers for resentment that could have easily been preventable. Just an opinion.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> I don’t think that at all. It just doesn’t seem like you’ve asked him how he feels or care how he feels about no sex.
> I agree that he should say something if not satisfied, and when you told him the weight was a thing, make an attempt to do something about it. But you’re not sure if even if back to 70 kilos you’d be attracted, correct?


What would be the point of this conversation? He knows I wont sleep with him
as long as he is overweight. So he says „xxxx“, which (a) is up to him to bring up, (b) wont affect my sexual willingness. A conversation must have an outcome.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I think you oversimplify this, at least in some cases. I am sure you have had your share of run-ins with guys that just want to wet their willy and will try every trick in the book to make that happen. This is not always the case.
> 
> I won't attempt to speak for all men but I connect emotionally when I have sex with a woman I love. It's not just an urge to get off but an urge to feel closer to this person I have intense feelings for. When sex went severely down hill it wasn't the lack of it that was my biggest issue but the fact that she thought because it didn't bother her it wasn't her problem. I view her problems as mine, and am always willing to help her tackle any problem together if possible. Now for you I am betting you think I thought she should just bend over when ever I had the urge but it's not. It's figuring out what the issues may be that are causing the lack of desire that she once had and seeing if we can work on them. In our case there were many factors including mental illness so it is a different road to hoe than many but we have worked out many issues. Her effort that I see in dealing with this illness and keeping the fallout from the people around her never ceases to amaze me. Her effort to keep intimacy going in our relationship makes me feel closer to her and a love for her that I never thought possible. Does this mean I get what ever suits my fancy whenever I want? No. But that isn't even close to what matters, it's her showing that she cares about what I need to have a fulfilling relationship and not just what she needs.
> 
> Now you are one up on most LD spouses in regards to this issue, you have identified the issue you have with intimacy and conveyed it to your husband. It is entirely possible that he may not care about it, for many possible reasons. I would suggest you at some point touch base with him on this and make sure he isn't building resentment over it. If you do love him I would imagine it would be hurtful to be blindsided by divorce papers for resentment that could have easily been preventable. Just an opinion.


That was a well written and thoughtful note. Thank you very much. I‘ll meditate on that.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> What would be the point of this conversation? He knows I wont sleep with him
> as long as he is overweight. So he says „xxxx“, which (a) is up to him to bring up, (b) wont affect my sexual willingness. A conversation must have an outcome.


Why does a conversation have yo necessarily have an outcome?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Why does a conversation have yo necessarily have an outcome?


 Because words must be an improvement on silence.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Because words must be an improvement on silence.


I quite like the silence. Married a woman who had no shared language with me, it was great, sadly she's learned to speak English now.

How I miss the silence!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> It was enjoyable though not orgasmic.


Have you ever been with a man you were truly attracted to and had good sex and orgasms and such that made you want to come back for more?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Have you ever been with a man you were truly attracted to and had good sex


....... or woman for that matter?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Because words must be an improvement on silence.


Why does there need to be a conclusion for it to be worth breaking the silence? Small talk for you must be an absolute hell.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Why does there need to be a conclusion for it to be worth breaking the silence? Small talk for you must be an absolute hell.


Neither my husband nor I are unconfortable with silence.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Have you ever been with a man you were truly attracted to and had good sex and orgasms and such that made you want to come back for more?


Yes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Yes.


So wouldn’t you want to experience that again some day?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> So wouldn’t you want to experience that again some day?


Thinking about it: yes I do.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Thinking about it: yes I do.


Lol, I think I see where you are leading this.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Lol, I think I see where you are leading this.





uphillbattle said:


> Lol, I think I see where you are leading this.


I dont know. I dont have an answer to this.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I dont know. I dont have an answer to this.


I thought the next question in the progression was going to be asked of you.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> I dont know. I dont have an answer to this.


So I understand you not wanting to have sex with your husband since he is fat and apparently hasn’t shown any interest in you either.... but why are you depriving YOURSELF of a close and intimate and pleasurable relationship?

You’ve admitted that you find sex pleasurable. You’ve admitted that you have been with men that you are attracted to and have had orgasms etc. 

And you’ve admitted that you would like to experience that again some day. 

So the question I have is what are you accomplishing by denying YOURSELF that excitement and pleasure and closeness etc? 

Why have YOU gone 6 years without something that you yourself admit you enjoy?

Is this to “punish” your husband for getting fat and for turning a blind eye towards you and showing no desire for you? 

Do you feel like you gain some sense of ‘power’ over him ?

Are you hurt and angry at him for having such disregard for you that he hasn’t made any effort to get close to you or even try to keep himself fit and attractive to you so this is some way of sticking it to him even though it means that you are also deprived of the pleasures and closeness of a marital love life???


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

/\ /\ that was the next question in the progression


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> sadly she's learned to speak English now.


Did you pay for that? Fool!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Why have YOU gone 6 years without something that you yourself admit you enjoy?


Is it so difficult to understand? Sex is not one of Sonja's top priorities, obviously. We are not all the same.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Is it so difficult to understand? Sex is not one of Sonja's top priorities, obviously. We are not all the same.


No we are not all the same. But don’t you see the contradiction and dysfunction here?

She states she finds sex enjoyable. She states she’s had good sex with men she’s attracted to. She states she wants to experience it again...

But gets she’s gone 6 years without, but not only has she gone without, she states it’s because her H has gotten fat, but yet has she ever addressed his weight or addressed their lack of marital intimacy????

This is a dysfunction. It’s not a case of mismatched libidos. Their is a breakdown in their marital dynamics. 

We’re not all the same, but we are all creatures of the earth and sexual beings. 

Assuming one isn’t having an affair or getting it elsewhere- when we deny and deprive our partner, we also deny and deprive OURSELVES.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> This is a dysfunction.


Why is it a dysfunction? She enjoys sex when she has it and it would be nice to have it again, but she is not that bothered, obviously. And her husband either, otherwise he would have lost the weight. And she's got the baby she wanted... who needs sex and a husband?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> We’re not all the same, but we are all creatures of the earth and sexual beings.
> 
> Assuming one isn’t having an affair or getting it elsewhere- when we deny and deprive our partner, *we also deny and deprive OURSELVES.*


YES...EXACTLY!!!! This is brilliant!!!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> YES...EXACTLY!!!! This is brilliant!!!


But what if she doesn't really care about that? Everybody seems to be assuming that people see sex the same way, or that people need sex. If she needed sex, she would have sex with her husband. She doesn't.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> If she needed sex, she would have sex with her husband. She doesn't.


But she has stated that she has liked sex and wants it in the future but doesn’t with her H yet remains with him and neither has even mentioned it in 6 years.

That is a dysfunction. 

Or as my grandma used to call it - “ a hitch in the gitalong.”


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> So I understand you not wanting to have sex with your husband since he is fat and apparently hasn’t shown any interest in you either.... but why are you depriving YOURSELF of a close and intimate and pleasurable relationship?
> 
> You’ve admitted that you find sex pleasurable. You’ve admitted that you have been with men that you are attracted to and have had orgasms etc.
> 
> ...


True, I feel disappointed he let himself go rather than stay attractive to me. Intimacy is of course enjoyable but I dont have a way forward on this and its not something that occupies my mind a lot.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Is it so difficult to understand? Sex is not one of Sonja's top priorities, obviously. We are not all the same.


Its like good ice cream. Its better with, but alright without. I feel no urge to leave him, as he is a phanastic spiritual partner.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> But what if she doesn't really care about that? Everybody seems to be assuming that people see sex the same way, or that people need sex. If she needed sex, she would have sex with her husband. She doesn't.


I don't mean for HER specifically...it's a great point for everyone to consider when they are refusing sex to their partners. They are also denying themselves that pleasure and opportunity for intimacy and connection.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't mean for HER specifically...it's a great point for everyone to consider when they are refusing sex to their partners. They are also denying themselves that pleasure and opportunity for intimacy and connection.


yes, I get that, but if people refuse and miss out, then they don't care - about their partners and sex in general - or they don't care enough. As Sonja says, it's like ice cream: nice to have it but not essential for some people. I don't think it's a dysfunction... some people are wired differently.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I'm not the poster you were talking to, but don't you understand that marriage is a sexual relationship?


Or, perhaps (I haven't seen it if it's even mentioned to this point) is the OP simply has a low sex drive / appetite. Six years without sex doesn't phase her. A good-looking husband is "meh". And the rest of it... it has all the signs.

Not everyone feels marriage is a sexual relationship. People marry for other reasons: companionship, build a family, security / bad home life. A psychologist involved in my divorce once said that she's known people who have sex once yearly on their anniversary and are happy; it might seem strange but that's how it is. Going from that to zero isn't that much of a leap.

I wouldn't marry anyone I didn't want or she didn't want me like that. A few years ago I stopped seeing a lady due to this. We had discussed her lack of desire / heat and nothing changed. Yet when I walked she was GENUINELY PISSED OFF, as in why should that interrupt a "good thing".

I'm sure she was imagining her happily ever after and the idea of no passion being a deal-breaker was a rude awakening. So yeah people do think like our OP and probably more commonly than we might imagine.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I aleays thought it should be, but I'll move forward with my more enlightened view. Sex is not necessary in a marriage. Women: you heard it here.


You missed a nuance. While he said a marriage didn't have to be sexual, he didn't say he would be monogamous.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

OP is definitely a bird of a different feather and she’s good with it. The only problem I see is she doesn’t care whether or not her husband is. He’s not getting any from her. He’s not complaining. He’s not getting it elsewhere. If he shows up here in 4 years complaining about a ten year sexless marriage, I can’t have a lot of compassion for him. 
Her not being attracted to him...... I doubt she’d be attracted to him no matter what. She’s only been attracted to 4 men in her whole life. He had no chance of maintaining a sexual relationship with her.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> yes, I get that, but if people refuse and miss out, then they don't care - about their partners and sex in general - or they don't care enough. As Sonja says, it's like ice cream: nice to have it but not essential for some people. I don't think it's a dysfunction... some people are wired differently.


Well, YES, obviously...but I think that is very rare in reality. It probably isn't a dysfunction for the OP, if she is really happy and fine about never having sex again. But I don't believe that is true for most people - and it was the people who are denying themselves what they really want for whom I was saying his point was brilliant.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, YES, obviously...but I think that is very rare in reality. It probably isn't a dysfunction for the OP, if she is really happy and fine about never having sex again. But I don't believe that is true for most people - and it was the people who are denying themselves what they really want for whom I was saying his point was brilliant.


One outcome of the conversation is that I‘ll think about mildly letting my husband know that I‘d look the other way as long as he does it tastefully.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> One outcome of the conversation is that I‘ll think about mildly letting my husband know that I‘d look the other way as long as he does it tastefully.


Ok, I'm sorry. I have to know. What would you consider tastefully?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

DTO said:


> I wouldn't marry anyone I didn't want or she didn't want me like that. A few years ago I stopped seeing a lady due to this. We had discussed her lack of desire / heat and nothing changed. Yet when I walked she was GENUINELY PISSED OFF, as in why should that interrupt a "good thing".
> 
> I'm sure she was imagining her happily ever after and the idea of no passion being a deal-breaker was a rude awakening. So yeah people do think like our OP and probably more commonly than we might think.


This is what happened with my STBX...he actually was furious that I had a problem with him changing the rules of our relationship, and that I wanted a separation "over sex". That showed me the true motives for his refusal, and they weren't actually about sex.

I believe most people like that are refusing sex due to other issues, not only a lack of libido. There is an enormous sense of entitlement that I've seen, and a lack of generosity of heart...so it can be a red flag for more than just the sexual relationship.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Ok, I'm sorry. I have to know. What would you consider tastefully?


A woman about who he would feel no shame even if all the world found out about it.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> A woman about who he would feel no shame even if all the world found out about it.


Is that to limit the embarrassment that it would bring to you if the world found out?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> A woman about who he would feel no shame even if all the world found out about it.


You do realize that such a woman—- he would almost guaranteed leave you for, right?


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

He is a healthy male and he is not getting at home, I imagine he is getting it somewhere else. It may not be affair outside of marriage, but it could be porn.

If OP doesn’t care if he is getting it elsewhere and just want to know about it. I think this marriage thing is done. Might as well just be roommates.

I don’t know if you guys ever talked about the situation. He is not complaining doesn’t mean he is fine with it. That just means he doesn’t want to talk about. And there are other issue in a marriage which prevent communication from happening.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> This is what happened with my STBX...he actually was furious that I had a problem with him changing the rules of our relationship, and that I wanted a separation "over sex". That showed me the true motives for his refusal, and they weren't actually about sex.
> 
> I believe most people like that are refusing sex due to other issues, not only a lack of libido. There is an enormous sense of entitlement that I've seen, and a lack of generosity of heart...so it can be a red flag for more than just the sexual relationship.


I hear you on that dynamic. But in my situation this is simply how that lady was. We weren't married / LTR. This was the stage (several months in, she's really wanting me to bond and see a future with her) where the horny feelings would be at their peak if they were going to be there at all.

But they weren't there ever. And in our early 40s this didn't seem odd to her at all - it's just the way she was. That's why I think you can't just assume there is some other issue at play.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Evinrude58 said:


> You do realize that such a woman—- he would almost guaranteed leave you for, right?


She does, and she'd be like my story - shaking her head that he'd leave over sex when there are more enlightened things to consider. Or, said differently, shaking her head that he let his sex compulsion direct his actions.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

DTO said:


> She does, and she'd be like my story - shaking her head that he'd leave over sex when there are more enlightened things to consider. Or, said differently, shaking her head that he let his sex compulsion direct his actions.


Lol, ok.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> You do realize that such a woman—- he would almost guaranteed leave you for, right?


I dont think he would leave though I could be wrong. If he feels his life is best continued without me, I wish him best.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DTO said:


> She does, and she'd be like my story - shaking her head that he'd leave over sex when there are more enlightened things to consider. Or, said differently, shaking her head that he let his sex compulsion direct his actions.


Its his choice and he is free as a bird. I dont question his choices.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> I dont think he would leave though I could be wrong. If he feels his life is best continued without me, I wish him best.


You are sure putting a lot of faith into your assumptions about your husband and his wishes for someone that has not actually talked to him about this. 

You are assuming he is ok with this arrangement because he hasn't left you (yet). But how do you know he is ok with it and isn't suffering inside but simply already knows you don't care so he just doesn't say anything?

How do you know he isn't seeing someone else or getting with sex workers, escorts etc?

How do you know he isn't waiting for your child to get to a certain age or certain stage in life and then hand you divorce papers to sign? 

How do you know he doesn't hate your guts and wishes you dead? 

What do you actually know about him at all other than he brings home money? 

99.99% of the men in this situation, if they found some little chickie that was screwing them every way but sidewise and the other woman wanted him to dump his wife and take up with her - 99.99% of those men wouldn't even come by the house to pick up their stuff. They would just leave divorce papers on the kitchen counter to sign and get back to them. 

Where is your confidence that he is in the 0.01% coming from? How do you know he is ok with this and won't be gone by this time next weekend?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> True, I feel disappointed he let himself go rather than stay attractive to me. Intimacy is of course enjoyable but I dont have a way forward on this and its not something that occupies my mind a lot.


You have many ways forward on this. You are just prefering the head-in-the-sand approach.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> You are sure putting a lot of faith into your assumptions about your husband and his wishes for someone that has not actually talked to him about this.
> 
> You are assuming he is ok with this arrangement because he hasn't left you (yet). But how do you know he is ok with it and isn't suffering inside but simply already knows you don't care so he just doesn't say anything?
> 
> ...


I am good reading people if they are warm hearted or not. He is, and may leave me but won‘t turn against me. The quality of the conversations is also excellent. Its unlikely he leaves, he would lose half of his substantial wealth.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I am good reading people if they are warm hearted or not. He is, and may leave me but won‘t turn against me. The quality of the conversations is also excellent. Its unlikely he leaves, he would lose half of his substantial wealth.


Ok this explains a lot


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

DTO said:


> Or, perhaps (I haven't seen it if it's even mentioned to this point) is the OP simply has a low sex drive / appetite. Six years without sex doesn't phase her. A good-looking husband is "meh". And the rest of it... it has all the signs.
> 
> Not everyone feels marriage is a sexual relationship. People marry for other reasons: companionship, build a family, security / bad home life. A psychologist involved in my divorce once said that she's known people who have sex once yearly on their anniversary and are happy; it might seem strange but that's how it is. Going from that to zero isn't that much of a leap.
> 
> ...



There are probably a good number of people that have consciously chosen to remain together for the other benefits of marriage and child rearing without a sexual component to that relationship. If they have both mutually agreed to that and have devised a method for them to function within that framework, then that is not dysfunctional and that is what works for them. I have no issue with that. 

But that's not what I see taking place here. 

What I see here is some dude got fat, she lost attraction and unilaterally decided to end their marital sex life without so much as peep to him and from the sounds of it really doesn't care if he lives or dies. 

additionally she has stated that she has enjoyed sexual relations in the past and would kind of like to experience that again but again hasn't uttered a word to her H about it or lifted a finger to do anything about it whether with or without him. 

And we are simply going on her word that he must be ok with it since he hasn't said anything about it is 6 years either. 

What kind of living, breathing, adult male goes 6 years without any contact with his wife and doesn't mention a word?

Is he even still alive or is he one of these mummified corpses you read about in the news every now and then where some dead guy/gal has been dead in the house for years like Norman Bate's Mother and the rest of the family just thought he/she was keeping to him/her self? 

If this was their mutual decision and mutual choice, that is fine. Each couple should determine their own marital dynamics and whether they want to have sex or not is up to them. 

But the reason I classify this under the dysfunctional column is I'm not sure if they have even spoken to each other 6 years and do either of them have the slightest idea what the wishes or wants and needs of the other is at all? Is he even still living in the house? Is he even still alive? 

If he filed for divorce, she would have gotten served with papers so we can assume he hasn't filed yet but do we actually know that he hasn't moved on with some other chick 5 years ago and he has 3 other children by now???

And I'm not pointing the finger solely at Sonya. This guy (assuming he's alive) bears his share of the accountability for the state of this marriage as well. Is he just as disconnected and unconcerned with her as she is with him. If she gets goes off the road and into the river on the way home some night, will he even notice she is missing and start a search for her?? 

This isn't about mismatched libidos or where the importance of sex falls on each of their hierarchy of needs. This is about a complete break down of human interaction between the parents of a 6 year old child.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> The quality of the conversations is also excellent.



WHAT???????? 

How can you even say that with a straight face? (I'm have to assume you have a straight face) 

What do you actually know about him and his wants and desires? What have you actually discussed in reference to the dynamics of your marriage? 

Is he good about talking about the weather? Is he always up for a lively debate on politics? 

What have you actually discussed within your marriage?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> There are probably a good number of people that have consciously chosen to remain together for the other benefits of marriage and child rearing without a sexual component to that relationship. If they have both mutually agreed to that and have devised a method for them to function within that framework, then that is not dysfunctional and that is what works for them. I have no issue with that.
> 
> But that's not what I see taking place here.
> 
> ...


You read into it whats not there. I said the quality of conversation with him is excellent and I like it and I wont leave him. If he wishes to say, is a separate matter if I wish to stay with him. He has made no sign to the contrary.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Its unlikely he leaves, he would lose half of his substantial wealth.





uphillbattle said:


> Ok this explains a lot


It might explain some things. If he is substantially wealthy, then maybe he is getting it from the secretary or a sugar baby or two. 

If he is wealthy and is getting it elsewhere, then it is in his better interest to keep his mouth shut and not rock the boat and let her go on thinking that they have this metaphysically spiritual relationship that transcends the flesh.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> WHAT????????
> 
> How can you even say that with a straight face? (I'm have to assume you have a straight face)
> 
> ...


We talk typically about topics such as the possibility or impossibility of free will in a mechanistic universe, or how Buddha is similar to Jesus, and not, and what that means for personal life; plus he unconsciously provides me with a mirror where I explore my shadow (in the Jungian sense). I totally enjoy these conversations.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> It might explain some things. If he is substantially wealthy, then maybe he is getting it from the secretary or a sugar baby or two.
> 
> If he is wealthy and is getting it elsewhere, then it is in his better interest to keep his mouth shut and not rock the boat and let her go on thinking that they have this metaphysically spiritual relationship that transcends the flesh.


If I ever learned of an outside relation with anything other than what I consider a quality woman, I‘d conclude thats the best he can do( and promptly divorce.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Sonja said:


> We talk typically about topics such as the possibility or impossibility of free will in a mechanistic universe, or how Buddha is similar to Jesus, and not, and what that means for personal life; plus he unconsciously provides me with a mirror where I explore my shadow (in the Jungian sense). I totally enjoy these conversations.


We also substantially converse on art. It is difficult to find a person more skilled than my husband to use descriptive language. He has the talent to describe the atmosphere in a room, or the taste of a good apricot. Anyone can say a ripe apricot tastes „good“, it takes skill altogether extraordinaire to describe its texture and feel in the mouth, how the taste develops in the mouth and where, how the taste experience shifts, and the like. He is masterful. I admire that.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Sonja said:


> We also substantially converse on art. It is difficult to find a person more skilled than my husband to use descriptive language. He has the talent to describe the atmosphere in a room, or the taste of a good apricot. Anyone can say a ripe apricot tastes „good“, it takes skill altogether extraordinaire to describe its texture and feel in the mouth, how the taste develops in the mouth and where, how the taste experience shifts, and the like. He is masterful. I admire that.


Another aspect we share is a TV free life. Not cause we are anti TV, but I didnt have one growing up and never missed one. He didnt either. The house is mostly quiet with not much noise. Our child has children series on YouTube in French and German.


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## DLC (Sep 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> If I ever learned of an outside relation with anything other than what I consider a quality woman, I‘d conclude thats the best he can do( and promptly divorce.


So if he is banging a Super model, you are totally cool with that. But if he banging a less than average house keeper, then you will divorce him???


----------



## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> But she has stated that she has liked sex and wants it in the future but doesn’t with her H yet remains with him and neither has even mentioned it in 6 years.
> 
> That is a dysfunction.
> 
> Or as my grandma used to call it - “ a hitch in the gitalong.”


I think it's more of a dysfunction to obsess over sex than to be middle of the road about it....


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DLC said:


> So if he is banging a Super model, you are totally cool with that. But if he banging a less than average house keeper, then you will divorce him???


I thoroughly think I am shaped by the people with whom choose to surround myself. When my husband has even casual relations with a woman he‘d be ashamed of to present to the world, says he cannot find better and that is now his new standard. That includes and is primary the spirit of the woman. With that at a low level, were this the case, is divorce ground.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> I thoroughly think I am shaped by the people with whom choose to surround myself. When my husband has even casual relations with a woman he‘d be ashamed of to present to the world, says he cannot find better and that is now his new standard. That is divorce ground.


Probably the craziest thing I’ve read in a while.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Probably the craziest thing I’ve read in a while.


Thats alright. It is what it is. It is my world view.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> Probably the craziest thing I’ve read in a while.


Stick around, I think it’s going to get crazier.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> I thoroughly think I am shaped by the people with whom choose to surround myself. When my husband has even casual relations with a woman he‘d be ashamed of to present to the world, says he cannot find better and that is now his new standard. That includes and is primary the spirit of the woman. With that at a low level, were this the case, is divorce ground.


That is kind of a catch 22 for you either way. 

If someone “better” comes along, he’ll probably simply leave. 

But if he’s getting down with someone you perceive as “lesser”, then you leave him. 

In either scenario, you’re the one out in the cold.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

oldshirt said:


> In either scenario, you’re the one out in the cold.


Not out in the cold. She gets half his personal wealth. That helps a lot with keeping warm.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> That is kind of a catch 22 for you either way.
> 
> If someone “better” comes along, he’ll probably simply leave.
> 
> ...


Were what he thinks a suitable woman came along, I am confident he would not divorce. He gave marriage vows to stay until death and he is the type of person, as am I, to not break that.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> or how Buddha is similar to Jesus


Buddha believed nobody was running the world.
Jesus believed his dad was running the world.

No similarities that I can see.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sounds like a helluva guy. Just not worth a **** at the same time. He’s a quandary.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Buddha believed nobody was running the world.
> Jesus believed his dad was running the world.
> 
> No similarities that I can see.


Jesus also said „the kingdom of heaven is within you“ and „the only way to god is the through love“. There have been meetings between Catholic monks and Buddhist monks who found they had much in common. There is one, possibly more, books on this.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Sonja said:


> Jesus also said „the kingdom of heaven is within you“ and „the only way to god is the through love“. There have been meetings between Catholic monks and Buddhist monks who found they had much in common. There is one, possibly more, books on this.


The two are in completely different realms.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

If my wife thought I was a gross fat slob I would want her to tell me. She probably wouldn’t though, she’s too nice.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Were what he thinks a suitable woman came along, I am confident he would not divorce. He gave marriage vows to stay until death and he is the type of person, as am I, to not break that.


When 99.99% of men make those vows, it is with the presumption of having a marital sex life.

So again, how much are you willing to bet he is one of the 0.01%?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> When 99.99% of men make those vows, it is with the presumption of having a marital sex life.
> 
> So again, how much are you willing to bet he is one of the 0.01%?


A confident bet if he remains sexless and a near certain bet if he finds himself a suitable long term affair which I then choose not to see.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Livvie said:


> The two are in completely different realms.


You say one thing, I say another thing, unsure where we can go from here and what such a conversation promises. Fact is Buddhist and Christian monks have written books together on the topic to what extent the creator is separate from creation. Thomas Merton also extensively commented on this and showed commonalities with his Buddhist brethren, while at the same time pointing out that Catholic understanding points to a warmer universe. „Commonalities“ does not mean they say the same thing, and Merton remained fully Catholic until he died.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> A confident bet if he remains sexless and a near certain bet if he finds himself a suitable long term affair which I then choose not to see.


I am going to give you a couple credits on this one. I think you are correct. 

If he has been sexless this long without a peep, it’s not a long shot to figure he will just keep living with it for the foreseeable future. 

And if if he is getting it elsewhere and you chose to turn a blind eye, there’s no reason to think that that won’t also go on indefinitely. 

I can’t help but wonder if the latter is more applicable than you even realize.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Just curious. Would you feel so secure on your positions if not for the guarantee of half of his substantial assets?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I am going to give you a couple credits on this one. I think you are correct.
> 
> If he has been sexless this long without a peep, it’s not a long shot to figure he will just keep living with it for the foreseeable future.
> 
> ...


I let it slide into the conversation at supper that only because we are married doesnt mean he cant start a new friendship with someone. He looked surprised and didnt say anything but he understood.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Just curious. Would you feel so secure on your positions if not for the guarantee of half of his substantial assets?


Almost as secure. He has a truly loyal personality. Loyalty as in not leaving me.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sonja said:


> Almost as secure. He has a truly loyal personality. Loyalty as in not leaving me.


Would you do have a relationship with a person you find attractive because you are sexless too and your husband is not losing the weight? Would he be ok with it? Just wondering. Although I think I know the answer...


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Would you do have a relationship with a person you find attractive because you are sexless too and your husband is not losing the weight? Would he be ok with it? Just wondering. Although I think I know the answer...


I dont know. I dont have an answer to that.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> I let it slide into the conversation at supper that only because we are married doesnt mean he cant start a new friendship with someone. He looked surprised and didnt say anything but he understood.


I wonder if he also doesn't fine YOU sexually attractive anymore...if he never shows any sexual desire for you, only intellectual...?

Gaining weight isn't the only thing that can make someone lose attraction, maybe you being pregnant and giving birth caused him to see you differently, or maybe he is bored with you sexually...or just doesn't see you as a sexually available, desirable woman anymore.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I wonder if he also doesn't fine YOU sexually attractive anymore...if he never shows any sexual desire for you, only intellectual...?
> 
> Gaining weight isn't the only thing that can make someone lose attraction, maybe you being pregnant and giving birth caused him to see you differently, or maybe he is bored with you sexually...or just doesn't see you as a sexually available, desirable woman anymore.


That is possible but would be on him. I am little changed from before pregnancy snd take care of my body as I always have.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I wonder if he also doesn't fine YOU sexually attractive anymore...if he never shows any sexual desire for you, only intellectual...?
> 
> Gaining weight isn't the only thing that can make someone lose attraction, maybe you being pregnant and giving birth caused him to see you differently, or maybe he is bored with you sexually...or just doesn't see you as a sexually available, desirable woman anymore.


I don't think they talk about sex or attraction any more.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I want a sounding board that motivates me to organise my thoughts and feelings. That is hard to do alone. In return, I answer questions openly. I do not look for advice or evaluations.


You aren't alone, you are married. Have you tried doing this with your husband?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> No, the weight gain is it.


Have you discussed this with your husband?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> True, I feel disappointed he let himself go rather than stay attractive to me. Intimacy is of course enjoyable but I dont have a way forward on this and its not something that occupies my mind a lot.


Of course there is a way forward. It starts with talking to you husband about it.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I don't think they talk about sex or attraction any more.





In Absentia said:


> I don't think they talk about sex or attraction any more.





BigDaddyNY said:


> You aren't alone, you are married. Have you tried doing this with your husband?


For most things in life yes. That said, my life benefits from multiple sounding boards.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Were what he thinks a suitable woman came along, I am confident he would not divorce. He gave marriage vows to stay until death and he is the type of person, as am I, to not break that.


You expect him to keep his vows no matter what, but you will break those vows and divorce if he slept with a women you deemed unworthy. Isn't that a double standard?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Of course there is a way forward. It starts with talking to you husband about it.


I expect an adult to be self motivated to take care of her/himself physically and to develop in spirit. I talk about it with a child. Not with an adult.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You expect him to keep his vows no matter what, but you will break those vows and divorce if he slept with a women you deemed unworthy. Isn't that a double standard?


Yes I will divorce if he becomes dull in spirit. The spirit of death is best captured by that old Pink Floyd song, „comfortably numb“.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I expect an adult to be self motivated to take care of her/himself physically and to develop in spirit. I dont complain nor nag.


Having a discussion with your husband about his weight and you lack of attraction is not complaining or nagging if it comes from a place of love. Wouldn't you talk to him about other health issues?

Do you and your husband sleep in the same bed?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Yes I will divorce if he becomes dull in spirit. The spirit of death is best captured by that old Pink Floyd song, „comfortably numb“.


Did your vows say I will stay with you I til your spirit becomes dull or till death?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Did your vows say I will stay with you I til your spirit becomes dull or till death?


Till death and I will break it when the spirit becomes dull.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Having a discussion with your husband about his weight and you lack of attraction is not complaining or nagging if it comes from a place of love. Wouldn't you talk to him about other health issues?
> 
> Do you and your husband sleep in the same bed?


I did mention it once. That suffices. I talk about other health issues yes, once or twice. That must suffice. Yes we sleep in the same bed.

Words trump action. I want to see a loss in weight, not words.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> That is possible but would be on him. I am little changed from before pregnancy snd take care of my body as I always have.


That was too quick and knee-jerk of a response. 

Read @LisaDiane post again and give it more mindful contemplation and reflection. 

Your waistline may be similar to your pre-pregnancy measurements, but you as a person and as a woman have changed profoundly since the arrival of Baby. 

You presumably had a sex life prior to giving birth (or you at least did it once). But now you have been sexless for 6 years since. So if we trace back to the beginning of the Dead Bedroom, the switch-point is the birth of the child so we need to start looking there. 

Many women have what is called responsive desire, which is their desire is in response to actions taken by the man. If the man doesn't do anything to ignite or stimulate her desire, she remains in a relatively sexually inert state. This can go on for years and her sexuality can become quite dormant. 

It can remain dormant for years until something (or someone) else comes along that rekindles that dying ember. 

The reason I think this needs further contemplation and reflection is me suspects there is more of this than what you are letting on (or perhaps even realise yourself)

It's not unusual for new mothers to become so wrapped up in the care of baby that sexuality gets put on the shelf for awhile. That may even be necessary for awhile. It's also not unusual for a woman to lose sexual attraction to her H if he puts on a significant amount of weight. 

What is HIGHLY unusual however is that your H has gone SIX YEARS and hasn't said a word and hasn't made any attempt at reestablishing a marital sex life or proposing an open marriage or anything. (YOU opened the can of worms of open marriage but lets set that aside for a moment) 

Again, how much are you willing to bet that your H is within that 0.01% of men that are ok with living a celibate life? 

cont......


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> That was too quick and knee-jerk of a response.
> 
> Read @LisaDiane post again and give it more mindful contemplation and reflection.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I think about this. Thats helpful.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

cont... 

Here is my bigger question -

I recognise and understand that you are not hot for your H's bod and I understand that you are not climbing the walls with horniness and desire. 

BUT,,,, way down deep inside of you, doesn't it bother you the teentsie weentsiest that he hasn't at least tried anything or at least said anything about being intimate with you in SIX YEARS??? 

You're roughly a 35 year old woman in the prime of life and at your sexual prime and by your accounts still in good shape, so doesn't it bother or even hurt you in just the slightest that he only wants to talk about art and literature with you??

You do seem intelligent and rational (overly so in fact) and you claim to be spiritual. 

And you give a variety of intellectual and spiritual rationale of why you don't have any intimacy with your husband. 

But here's the thing that has me concerned - People often use intellectual and even spiritual rationale to cover the fact they are hurting inside and use those excuses to hide the fact they feel hurt and lonely and rejected. 

The physics nerd will hide his hurt and rejection by saying that the girls are too dumb for him and that he's needs to spend his time and energy for studying for physics exams and doesn't have time for girls, but the reality is hurting because the girls aren't attracted to him and are chasing the jocks instead. 

And the church girl will claim that she has bible study on Saturday nights and that she is devoting her time and energies to serving god and trying to reach her spiritual enlightenment to hide her hurt and despair that the jocks and even the cute boy in band are all chasing after the cheerleaders. 

Trust me on this, I know what I speak for I am the Jedi Master at using intellectual and spiritual explanations to cover my pain. 

Do you trust that your H is of the 0.01% percent, or are you hurt that he hasn't shown any effort or desire for you in 6 years???


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I am good reading people if they are warm hearted or not. He is, and may leave me but won‘t turn against me. The quality of the conversations is also excellent. Its unlikely he leaves, he would lose half of his substantial wealth.


Ok, this rubs me the wrong way. He's not good enough to have sex with, but he is good enough to take 50% of what he has?

How do you feel good about that? Honestly, I don't understand. If a lady became that unattractive and then left wanted, I definitely would not want to enrich myself at her expense. I actually didn't pursue spousal support for that reason.

This sounds like you (in your mind) have created a no lose scenario. Right now you won't do anything you don't want because you don't have to. But if you leave you'll take 1/2 because the law allows it?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I wonder what his response would be if OP said “husband, I don’t find you sexually attractive anymore, but enjoy talking. What are your thoughts?”

I know what mine would be.

Then again, if all he had to do was lose some weight and get some good sex again and he’s not willing, I’d be losing the weight.

I am curious about OP’s level of attractiveness.
I’m visualizing either end of the spectrum with her. Certainly she seems confident that he should want her. Wondering what OP does to stay so fit?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DTO said:


> Ok, this rubs me the wrong way. He's not good enough to have sex with, but he is good enough to take 50% of what he has?
> 
> How do you feel good about that? Honestly, I don't understand. If a lady became that unattractive and then left wanted, I definitely would not want to enrich myself at her expense. I actually didn't pursue spousal support for that reason.
> 
> This sounds like you (in your mind) have created a no lose scenario. Right now you won't do anything you don't want because you don't have to. But if you leave you'll take 1/2 because the law allows it?


Actually I wont make his life difficult if he chooses to leave. He is free as a bird. By Canadian law it‘d be half, but I think the law is unfair to him. I dont deserve 10%, less so, half. I‘d take what he freely gives and even go for zero. That said, I wont tell him that.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

DTO said:


> Ok, this rubs me the wrong way. He's not good enough to have sex with, but he is good enough to take 50% of what he has?
> 
> How do you feel good about that? Honestly, I don't understand. If a lady became that unattractive and then left wanted, I definitely would not want to enrich myself at her expense. I actually didn't pursue spousal support for that reason.
> 
> This sounds like you (in your mind) have created a no lose scenario. Right now you won't do anything you don't want because you don't have to. But if you leave you'll take 1/2 because the law allows it?


Why the surprise? She doesn’t seem cold and calculating?????
If course she will take half his wealth. It’s the price he pays for the intellectually stimulating conversations with her.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> Actually I wont make his life difficult if he chooses to leave. He is free as a bird. By Canadian law it‘d be half, but I think the law is unfair to him. I dont deserve 10%, less so, half. I‘d take what he freely gives and even go for zero. That said, I wont tell him that.


✌


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Why the surprise? She doesn’t seem cold and calculating?????
> If course she will take half his wealth. It’s the price he pays for the intellectually stimulating conversations with her.


Think again.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

DTO said:


> Ok, this rubs me the wrong way. He's not good enough to have sex with, but he is good enough to take 50% of what he has?
> 
> How do you feel good about that? Honestly, I don't understand. If a lady became that unattractive and then left wanted, I definitely would not want to enrich myself at her expense. I actually didn't pursue spousal support for that reason.
> 
> This sounds like you (in your mind) have created a no lose scenario. Right now you won't do anything you don't want because you don't have to. But if you leave you'll take 1/2 because the law allows it?


I am astounded it took this long for someone to jump on.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I am astounded it took this long for someone to jump on.


There is the law, there is what he thinks he loses (50%) and there is what he actually loses (between 0 and 50%), its not my money and I wont fight for a dollar. Thats just bad karma.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Actually I wont make his life difficult if he chooses to leave. He is free as a bird. By Canadian law it‘d be half, but I think the law is unfair to him. I dont deserve 10%, less so, half. I‘d take what he freely gives and even go for zero. That said, I wont tell him that.


Why not tell him, especially if you're so sure he won't leave?

Honestly, your posts make it sound like you consider yourself a higher quality / better person than him. You are shapely and attractive while he is slovenly. You have transcended sex and strive for self development. If he goes and gets some strange you'll divorce him (you don't really think he can find someone at your level).

Have you asked him why he thinks the sex has dried up? You sound an awful lot like my ex wife, and while she'd sound a lot like you, the truth was far from what she claimed.

A cautionary tale: my ex is now a lonely middle-age woman with two divorces under her belt. Our daughter barely has any relationship with her for three years, and our son before he passed had issues with the attitude.. Unless you stop behaving like you can set the standard and everyone else will (or at least should) fall in line, you risk the same fate.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

uphillbattle said:


> I am astounded it took this long for someone to jump on.


But the husband doesn't have to lose 50%, just a few kilos...


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> But the husband doesn't have to lose 50%, just a few kilos...


She has said this may not fix it. Besides no matter how much people can't seem to wrap their heads around it, the op could be right about him not caring.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I'm beginning to wonder if we (meaning ME) have been looking at this all wrong since the beginning. 

From the start I have been looking at this through my own lens and have been picturing the downtrodden fat guy rejected by his cold, uncaring wife with the ice water flowing through her veins. I have pictured a suffering simp with low self esteem who's ice queen wife has gotten her offspring and now blows him off with the wave of her hand because his emotional eating has given him the middle age spare tire around the belly a little early. 

But I'm beginning to wonder if SHE is actually the one being played the fool here. I'm wondering if she is actually the rejected one and dismissed one. 

Let's look at some of her stated facts here -

....But first.. let's redirect our eyes to the title of this thread for a moment. It is titled, "Sexless Marriage of Sonya"

It is not titled, "I don't like my husband" or "My husband wants sex but I don't" or even, "I don't have any libido anymore."

She is the one claiming a sexless marriage. 

Her prose has been very blunt and brief. But it appears mindful and with purpose and she gets her point across. 

so by her own statements - 

- she has enjoyed sexual relations in the past and claims pleasure from sex.

- she claims she has been attracted to a variety of men in the past. 

-she claims she is orgasmic.

-she claims she does wish to have intimacy in her future.

-she claims husband is wealthy.

-she claims husband is highly intelligent, articulate, well read and personable. 

- I haven't noted her saying directly but I have gotten the impression she is a SAHM or at least has an income that is a very small fraction of his. 

- and she claims husband is perfectly ok with this and has not said a word or made any attempt at intimacy in SIX YEARS. 

While this may all seem like a jumble of random factoids of a pair of whackadoodles here, I'm beginning to see a picture in my head where this all makes sense.......... and it's Sonja that is being played the fool. 

What kind of man goes 6 years without having sex with his wife and doesn't say a peep about it??

Answer = the guy who's diddling the secretary and has a couple 21 year old sugar babies on the payroll. 

He has the trophy wife at home that cooks and cleans and keeps the kid out of his hair and is a good Wife Appliance that he keeps entertained by discussing art and literature and global economics and tells her how glad he is that that have a more spiritual and intellectual connection than a lot of the guys at work that are always trying to get their wives to blow them. 

Now it's true that Sonya hasn't stepped up to the plate and taken any accountability thus far for the lack of intimacy in her marriage. And I am beginning to wonder if she is using all this spirituality and talk of art and literature to cover her pain and rejection.... she obviously does have her issues as do we all. 

But I am starting to wonder if she is the one being duped, the one being played, and ultimately the one being denied and rejected.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DTO said:


> Why not tell him, especially if you're so sure he won't leave?
> 
> Honestly, your posts make it sound like you consider yourself a higher quality / better person than him. You are shapely and attractive while he is slovenly. You have transcended sex and strive for self development. If he goes and gets some strange you'll divorce him (you don't really think he can find someone at your level).
> 
> ...


thanks for the response! 
1 - I am not an angel. I would not demand anything. if his first offer is 0%, I take that, but if his first offer is 50% I take that too. 
2 - yes I have my standards and prefer solitude over a mediocre relation. The most important thing in my life is personal growth, jumping over my shadows, exploring boundaries of my soul. Everything else is secondary. If another person wants to join me in that quest, phantastic, if not, then good also. 
3 - that is not to say i feel superior. Really. I have my standards and live them and its great when others live by theirs. I truly do not judge, live and let live. 
4 - I dont claim I am a good person. I am what I am and feel comfortable in my skin.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> That is possible but would be on him. I am little changed from before pregnancy snd take care of my body as I always have.


I used to be strongly sexually attracted to my STBX - I mean, ready to rip my clothes off levels of desire for him. 
I think I'm probably a more emotional, passionate person than you are, but still - I didn't feel like that for anyone else, it was all directed at him. However, after a few years of feeling rejected and like he didn't desire me sexually in return, that ALL completely went away, and now I feel nothing for him sexually at all, and he is totally unattractive to me.

He hasn't changed physically at all, but his attitude towards me and his lack of sexual interest in ME killed all that burning desire I had for him a couple of years ago, when he was all I could think about.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Actually I wont make his life difficult if he chooses to leave. He is free as a bird. By Canadian law it‘d be half, but I think the law is unfair to him. I dont deserve 10%, less so, half. I‘d take what he freely gives and even go for zero. *That said, I wont tell him that.*


Why wouldn't you tell him that...do you mean so you can manipulate him into being afraid to leave you, even if he's unhappy, because he believes he will lose everything...? (I hope that's not what you mean...)

You know THAT brings "bad Karma" as well, right?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Why wouldn't you tell him that...do you mean so you can manipulate him into being afraid to leave you, even if he's unhappy, because he believes he will lose everything...? (I hope that's not what you mean...)
> 
> You know THAT brings "bad Karma" as well, right?


I wont tell him cause I would not say no to free money. I wont ask for it, but if offered, yup I take it. I am not an angel. I am frank. A lot of social conversation is boring with people virtue signalling how good they are and God no would never do anything selfish. I can be selfish and unapologetically so. So, no, I wont tell him that I‘d accept a 0 offer with a smile and without an argument.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I also want to throw out there that I do not know if Sonja has ever heard of the term Responsive Desire before but she has described it to a "T" a couple different times when she says "...if I don't feel it in my body."

That is what responsive desire is. RD is your body responding sexually even though your mind may not be engaged sexually at that moment. As your body becomes more stimulated and responsive, so too does your mind and emotional state (if you allow it to) 

Now I am a guy and I have a lot of spontaneous desire but I am not visually attracted to significantly overweight women. I do not see an overweight woman walk by and become attracted to her or desire her etc. 

However there have been times in the past when overweight women that was not initially drawn to started rubbing their big ol' boobs on me and putting their soft, cushy flesh against me and whispering in my ear all the things they wanted to do with me and before I knew it, somebody down south was starting to stand up looking for attention and in the end they were wonderful lovers and a good time was had by all. 

That is an example of responsive desire and I would bet a whole shiny brand new quarter that if Mr Sonja had done something similar in the past 6 years, sonya's body would have responded. 

He is not visually appealing to her. The vast vast vast majority of men in the world are NOT visually appealing enough for women to want to have sex with them just by laying eyes on them. Neither men nor women are constructed that way. 

But he hasn't said a word to her or laid a finger on her in 6 years and she is convinced down to her core that he does not want a sex life with her (and she is probably right). 

So she is not going to be attracted to him and she is not going to desire him. 

He main sexual drive is probably RD and he is not providing the stimulus......... AT ALL and doesn't appear to even want to try to. 

Me suspects he's getting all of those needs met elsewhere. 

But she is still a flesh and blood human female in her prime. The child is 6 years old. The SEVEN YEAR ITCH is real. 

It's just a matter of time before either the husband wants to take up with the secretary or try to get with one of the sugar babies fulltime. 

OR Sven From Yoga shows her his abz and gives her the nudge nudge wink wink which reignites her flame with a vengeance and she is leaving snail tracks on the floor and is herself completely perplexed about what forces are overcoming her.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> I wont tell him cause I would not say no to free money. I wont ask for it, but if offered, yup I take it. I am not an angel. I am frank. A lot of social conversation is boring with people virtue signalling how good they are and God no would never do anything selfish. I can be selfish and unapologetically so. So, no, I wont tell him that I‘d accept a 0 offer with a smile and without an argument.


That is more than selfish...it is manipulative. If you care about spirituality and karma and Buddhism, you should be attempting to be more enlightened about harming others in order to get more for yourself.

Being selfish and unapologetic about it means you are taking advantage of others for your own gain - it's actually very toxic in relationships of all kinds. I wonder what rational you make to yourself to justify such an uncaring attitude to someone who you say you love.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I also want to throw out there that I do not know if Sonja has ever heard of the term Responsive Desire before but she has described it to a "T" a couple different times when she says "...if I don't feel it in my body."
> 
> That is what responsive desire is. RD is your body responding sexually even though your mind may not be engaged sexually at that moment. As your body becomes more stimulated and responsive, so too does your mind and emotional state (if you allow it to)
> 
> ...


You give really good responses. You make me think, in a good way!


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> That is more than selfish...it is manipulative. If you care about spirituality and karma and Buddhism, you should be attempting to be more enlightened about harming others in order to get more for yourself.
> 
> Being selfish and unapologetic about it means you are taking advantage of others for your own gain - it's actually very toxic in relationships of all kinds. I wonder what rational you make to yourself to justify such an uncaring attitude to someone who you say you love.


Letting another person freely decide in making me an offer, if it came to that, does not count as manipulation. I do not volunteer this info.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around a healthy man that has regular morning erections and other spontaneous erections, which are all normal, and has not mentioned having sex with his wife in 6 years. It is hard to come up with an explanation other than getting sexual release elsewhere or erectile dysfunction. 

When you and your husband were sexually active who would typically initiate? When sex stopped, was it like the flip of a switch, or was there a period where it tapered off and were there times when the initiator was rejected?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around a healthy man that has regular morning erections and other spontaneous erections, which are all normal, and has not mentioned having sex with his wife in 6 years. It is hard to come up with an explanation other than getting sexual release elsewhere or erectile dysfunction.
> 
> When you and your husband were sexually active who would typically initiate? When sex stopped, was it like the flip of a switch, or was there a period where it tapered off and were there times when the initiator was rejected?


Yes, all of that... but not all men are the same. Also, is Sonja supposed to give her husband duty sex? Because this is what it would be at the end of the day. I thought we were all against that here...


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> I used to be strongly sexually attracted to my STBX - I mean, ready to rip my clothes off levels of desire for him.
> I think I'm probably a more emotional, passionate person than you are, but still - I didn't feel like that for anyone else, it was all directed at him. However, after a few years of feeling rejected and like he didn't desire me sexually in return, that ALL completely went away, and now I feel nothing for him sexually at all, and he is totally unattractive to me.
> 
> He hasn't changed physically at all, but his attitude towards me and his lack of sexual interest in ME killed all that burning desire I had for him a couple of years ago, when he was all I could think about.


Yes. I am like you that way. I need to feel strongly desired before I feel attracted too.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, all of that... but not all men are the same. Also, is Sonja supposed to give her husband duty sex? Because this is what it would be at the end of the day. I thought we were all against that here...


Umm...I never said I was against that...Lol!!


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around a healthy man that has regular morning erections and other spontaneous erections, which are all normal, and has not mentioned having sex with his wife in 6 years. It is hard to come up with an explanation other than getting sexual release elsewhere or erectile dysfunction.


I was scratching my head wondering the same thing. 

Then the answer that would check off all the boxes dawned on me. 

I spelled it out above in post #228.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Yes. I am like you that way. I need to feel strongly desired before I feel attracted too.


Well, this is why I wonder about your husband...could he feel rejected by you and has now lost his desire for you because of that?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, all of that... but not all men are the same. Also, is Sonja supposed to give her husband duty sex? Because this is what it would be at the end of the day. I thought we were all against that here...


A woman is free to do duty sex for her own reasons, what enraged me a few days ago were comments from a group of people who said something is wrong with a woman if she doesn‘t do that. I am glad they left the conversation.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Letting another person freely decide in making me an offer, if it came to that, does not count as manipulation. I do not volunteer this info.


A free choice on his part would require a clear understanding of all the facts pertaining to the situation. If you told him that you would happily accept any offer he made, then he has free choice. In this case his freely made offer would be based on incomplete information because you purposely withheld that information so you could get a larger sum of money. That is your stated reason for not telling him. That is very clearly manipulation.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> A free choice on his part would require a clear understanding of all the facts pertaining to the situation. If you told him that you would happily accept any offer he made, then he has free choice. In this case his freely made offer would be based on incomplete information because you purposely withheld that information so you could get a larger sum of money. That is your stated reason for not telling him. That is very clearly manipulation.


You say one thing, I say another. You are free to hold your point of view.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> You say one thing, I say another. You are free to hold your point of view.


You can say the sky is green, but it doesn't make it so. 

Purposely withholding information to skew someone's decision making process is the very definition of a manipulation.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, all of that... but not all men are the same. Also, is Sonja supposed to give her husband duty sex? Because this is what it would be at the end of the day. I thought we were all against that here...


Not to sound like a broken record, but there is a huge difference between:
(1) reluctant duty sex, and
(2) intimacy provided by a loving spouse who wants to please and bond with his or her spouse despite not being horny beforehand.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You can say the sky is green, but it doesn't make it so.
> 
> Purposely withholding information to skew someone's decision making process is the very definition of a manipulation.


That definition does not survive a closer look and you‘d qualify it fast as a general principle when applied to all situations in life. However, thats not an argument I wish to enter, as it‘d take time with no visible benefit.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, all of that... but not all men are the same. Also, is Sonja supposed to give her husband duty sex? Because this is what it would be at the end of the day. I thought we were all against that here...


I don't think he mentioned her giving it up in any way. He said he couldn't wrap his mind around it. For many on here this thread is giving them a moment of cognitive dissonance. It's quite fascinating to watch.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> That definition does not survive a closer look and you‘d qualify it fast as a general principle when applied to all situations in life. However, thats not an argument I wish to enter, as it‘d take time with no visible benefit.


I agree with you, we won't get anywhere with that and it isn't exactly on the topic of this.

I would like to see your answer to this though:
When you and your husband were sexually active who would typically initiate? When sex stopped, was it like the flip of a switch, or was there a period where it tapered off and were there times when the initiator was rejected?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> However, thats not an argument I wish to enter, as it‘d take time with no visible benefit.


Is it no benefit because you can't fit it in with how you feel?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I agree with you, we won't get anywhere with that and it isn't exactly on the topic of this.
> 
> I would like to see your answer to this though:
> When you and your husband were sexually active who would typically initiate? When sex stopped, was it like the flip of a switch, or was there a period where it tapered off and were there times when the initiator was rejected?


He initiated sex though I initiated kissing. It tapered off together with the gradual weight gain. I rejected at the end and specifically said to him his weight makes him unattractive. Its all on the table. There is no conversation needed, whats needed is action.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Is it no benefit because you can't fit it in with how you feel?


Its of no benefit cause the definition does not stand up to closer scrutiny.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Yes, all of that... but not all men are the same. Also, is Sonja supposed to give her husband duty sex? Because this is what it would be at the end of the day. I thought we were all against that here...


No, I think so called "duty sex" is no good. I know it isn't what I would want and I would never ask my wife for it. What should happen is a discussion between spouses about it. If two people decide sex isn't for them and not needed as part of their marriage, fine by me. They both understand the situation and gave it the green light. In this case there seems to have been nothing more than superficial discussion and a very cold attitude about the whole situation.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> He initiated sex though I initiated kissing. It tapered off together with the gradual weight gain. I rejected at the end and specifically said to him his weight makes him unattractive. Its all on the table. There is no conversation needed, whats needed is action.


I think what she is saying for those in the back. The ball is in his court and has been for 6 years.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> He initiated sex though I initiated kissing. It tapered off together with the gradual weight gain. I rejected at the end and specifically said to him his weight makes him unattractive. Its all on the table. There is no conversation needed, whats needed is action.


What was his response when you told him you were no longer attracted to him due to his weight gain?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Its of no benefit cause the definition does not stand up to closer scrutiny.


Scrutiny based on how you feel? It does match up with the definition fairly well.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I think what she is saying for those in the back. The ball is in his court and has been for 6 years.


Yes.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, this is why I wonder about your husband...could he feel rejected by you and has now lost his desire for you because of that?


@Sonja Read Lisa's question above with careful contemplation and soul searching. 

Then flip the question around and ask yourself if the lack of attraction you have for him could actually be do (at least in part) for the apparent lack of interest and desire he has for you also? 

I do think your sexuality is largely driven by Responsive Desire and if he is showing no interest and no initiative on his part, then your sexuality has likely gone dormant and you just think you aren't that sexual. 

You are in your sexual prime with a child that is about to reach the magical stage of child development where women start getting the urge again. IMHO you are a powder keg full of powder that just needs the match struck to go off. 

That match could very easily be Sven From Yoga or Steve From accounting or Spike The Tattoo'd Biker down the street that works on his bike in the driveway with his shirt off. 

OR with some open and honest, heartfelt dialogue, your sexless marriage might be able to be turned around if you each come to the table and be willing to put yourselves out there and be open and honest with each other. 

Frankly, after this amount of time, you may probably need some professional marriage counseling to get each of you to come to the table and actually address this in an effective manner. 

You have both been hiding and keeping secrets from each other and have shown a definate pattern of very ineffectual communication and lack of connection.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Scrutiny based on how you feel? It does match up with the definition fairly well.


Do a mental thought experiment on the many situations in life where information is withheld and ask if each counts as manipulation. As soon as you find one where it does not, the definition is faulty.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Do a mental thought experiment on the many situations in life where information is withheld and ask if each counts as manipulation. As soon as you find one where it does not, the definition is faulty.


Your statement holds up until you add the rest of what he said. Then you will be hard pressed to find one that doesn't fit. Take in ALL the information, not just that which fits your narrative.


BigDaddyNY said:


> Purposely withholding information *to skew someone's decision making process *is the very definition of a manipulation.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Umm...I never said I was against that...Lol!!


Not you... and not me. I accepted duty sex.  By "all" i meant the majority of men on TAM. This is the impression I got.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> Not you... and not me. I accepted duty sex.  By "all" i meant the majority of men on TAM. This is the impression I got.


Mostly the really vocal and aggressive ones.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

DTO said:


> Not to sound like a broken record, but there is a huge difference between:
> (1) reluctant duty sex, and
> (2) intimacy provided by a loving spouse who wants to please and bond with his or her spouse despite not being horny beforehand.


Sure, but in Sonja's case would be (1)... when I say we are all against duty sex, obviously I mean (1). Maybe it wasn't that obvious


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Your statement holds up until you add the rest of what he said. Then you will be hard pressed to find one that doesn't fit. Take in ALL the information, not just that which fits your narrative.


Correct. And now do the following thought experiment. Substitute „i withhold information in situation X“ and „the missing information changes my counterpartys decision Y“ and examine if for any X and any Y, you still call it manipulation. If you dont, the definition is faulty.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Correct. And now do the following thought experiment. Substitute „i withhold information in situation X“ and „the missing information changes my counterpartys decision Y“ and examine if for any X and any Y, you still call it manipulation. If you dont, the definition is faulty.


I've tried that thought experiment and can't come up with any where it isn't manipulation. Do you have an example?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

To be fair, it really doesn't matter all that much what she asks for or says she'll agree to in court. The courts are obligated to follow the divorce laws in that jurisdiction and they are also obligated to try to reach a settlement that will keep people from coming back to court. 

It doesn't matter if she raises her right hand and swears all she wants out of the settlement is her pink unicorn pillow and toothbrush, the court is obligated to distribute the marital assets according to the law and be at least somewhat fair and equitable. 

Each side will be obligated to disclose their financial assets and properties and some will be considered marital assets eligible for distribution and some will not. 

some things can be argued and debated and negotiated and some things cannot be. 

But at the end of the day she will get her distribution in accordance to the divorce laws of that jurisdiction and he will get his. Whether she has screwed him in the 6 years or not will likely not be part of the equation.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You can say the sky is green, but it doesn't make it so.
> 
> Purposely withholding information to skew someone's decision making process is the very definition of a manipulation.


So if you knew you would absolve a spouse of an affair, and didn't tell them, are you manipulating them into monogamy?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I don't really see the problem. The whole arrangement is based on free will. The husband is free to have sex on the side and to divorce his wife. He is free to lose weight and have sex with his wife. He is free to leave her money or to leave her nothing. Sonja won't complain. It's clearly an unusual arrangement, but nobody is forced to do anything and they enjoy a good conversation...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Do a mental thought experiment on the many situations in life where information is withheld and ask if each counts as manipulation. As soon as you find one where it does not, the definition is faulty.


This is not an accurate way to scrutinize anything, especially how people relate to eachother.
Plus, you need a more emotional way of doing so, and I don't know if you can understand emotional methods accurately since you seem to cling to logic so tightly. 

You ARE manipulating him if you are withholding complete information from him for a possible personal benefit. It's even deceptive, which is also a very negative way of relating to another person.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Correct. And now do the following thought experiment. Substitute „i withhold information in situation X“ and „the missing information changes my counterpartys decision Y“ and examine if for any X and any Y, you still call it manipulation. If you dont, the definition is faulty.


The only way I have been able to come up with a situation where it turns out faulty is if I leave out Y. Can you explain a single situation where this is not the case? I am not finding it possible.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> I don't really see the problem. The whole arrangement is based on free will. The husband is free to have sex on the side and to divorce his wife. He is free to lose weight and have sex with his wife. He is free to leave her money or to leave her nothing. Sonja won't complain. It's clearly an unusual arrangement, but nobody is forced to do anything and they enjoy a good conversation...


I see no problem either. I still find this an amazing learning experience derived from an extremely unique mind.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

uphillbattle said:


> Mostly the really vocal and aggressive ones.


Yes, an abundance of sexual frustration and feeling invalidated and hopeless and trapped tends to bring out aggression and strong expressions of unhappiness. 
I think that's much healthier than holding it in and killing a major part of one's self.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> Yes, an abundance of sexual frustration and feeling invalidated and hopeless and trapped tends to bring out aggression and strong expressions of unhappiness.
> I think that's much healthier than holding it in and killing a major part of one's self.


I don't disagree. I was just answering.


In Absentia said:


> Not you... and not me. I accepted duty sex.  By "all" i meant the majority of men on TAM. This is the impression I got.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> The only way I have been able to come up with a situation where it turns out faulty is if I leave out Y. Can you explain a single situation where this is not the case? I am not finding it possible.


I replace „X“ with: I am willing up to pay $20k for the car in the dealership for which I negotiate. I dont share that info with the sales person. I replace „Y“ with: maybe by not immediately sharing the maximum price I am willing to pay, the dealer offers me something better.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

In Absentia said:


> Not you... and not me. I accepted duty sex.  By "all" i meant the majority of men on TAM. This is the impression I got.


I don't think duty sex is even relevant here because neither wants it. .... at least not from each other. 

There's no duty here because neither wants the service. 

Neither has threatened to leave. Neither has said to put out "or else."

Noone has even filed a meaningful complaint due to lack of sexual access.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I replace „X“ with: I am willing up to pay $20k for the car in the dealership for which I negotiate. I dont share that info with the sales person. I replace „Y“ with: maybe by not immediately sharing the maximum price I am willing to pay, the dealer offers me something better.


You are making the mistake of assigning a negative connotation to the word where it does not apply. It is in this case without a doubt a manipulation. Just one that is acceptable and expected.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cletus said:


> So if you knew you would absolve a spouse of an affair, and didn't tell them, are you manipulating them into monogamy?


If I were okay with a non-monogamous marriage (same as absolving an affair), but kept my mouth shut on the topic, then yes it is a form on manipulation. Especially if my goal is to keep them monogamous when I don't really care. OP said she would be fine with 0%, but has said she wouldn't play that hand hoping to get an offer of 50%. Clearly that is manipulation.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I replace „X“ with: I am willing up to pay $20k for the car in the dealership for which I negotiate. I dont share that info with the sales person. I replace „Y“ with: maybe by not immediately sharing the maximum price I am willing to pay, the dealer offers me something better.


That is 100% manipulation. It is to your benefit, but still manipulation. You gained at the dealer's expense. Just like you would gain 50% of your husbands wealth by not telling him you are okay with 0% and will take whatever he offers. He may still give you 50%, but you've taken away he freedom to choose and gained something at his expense.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> That is 100% manipulation. It is to your benefit, but still manipulation. You gained at the dealer's expense. Just like you would gain 50% of your husbands wealth by not telling him you are okay with 0% and will take whatever he offers. He may still give you 50%, but you've taken away he freedom to choose and gained something at his expense.


Few people would describe my X/Y as manipulation. Maybe I am wrong.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If I were okay with a non-monogamous marriage (same as absolving an affair), but kept my mouth shut on the topic, then yes it is a form on manipulation. Especially if my goal is to keep them monogamous when I don't really care. OP said she would be fine with 0%, but has said she wouldn't play that hand hoping to get an offer of 50%. Clearly that is manipulation.


I didn't say anything about a non-monogamous marriage, which is NOT the same as absolving an affair.

Many posters in this forum have stated that telling your spouse that you could forgive infidelity, even if only once, is tantamount to giving them permission to have an affair. I.E., manipulating them into remaining monogamous if your definition holds.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Few people would describe my X/Y as manipulation. Maybe I am wrong.


Well, there are at least a couple people that do think you are wrong.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Few people would describe my X/Y as manipulation. Maybe I am wrong.


What is popular is not always right. Most people would refuse to look at the word as anything but negative. The same trap people fall into is with the word ignorant. Looking at things through our own personal bias skews them.
Take this whole thread for instance, many still can't wrap their heads around it because of how they view marriage. It doesn't make your marriage wrong.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> *Few people would describe my X/Y as manipulation.* Maybe I am wrong.


I think you are wrong on this point. In the end it only matters what you and your husband think.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cletus said:


> I didn't say anything about a non-monogamous marriage, which is NOT the same as absolving an affair.
> 
> Many posters in this forum have stated that telling your spouse that you could forgive infidelity is tantamount to giving them permission to have an affair. I.E., manipulating them into being monogamous.


If you are willing to absolve an affair you willing to accept a non-monogamous marriage, at least for some period of time. 

I'm a little confused by your last statement. We can have a whole discussion about whether or not saying you would forgive an affair is the same as permission to have an affair. However, I don't see how saying that is manipulating them into being monogamous.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> What is popular is not always right. Most people would refuse to look at the word as anything but negative. The same trap people fall into is with the word ignorant. Looking at things through our own personal bias skews them.
> Take this whole thread for instance, many still can't wrap their heads around it because of how they view marriage. It doesn't make your marriage wrong.


„Right“ is a dangerous word without saying what the standard is. To the extent negotiation is manipulation, I have no problems with either.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> „Right“ is a dangerous word without saying what the standard is. To the extent negotiation is manipulation, I have no problems with either.


The standard here has been the meaning of the word. It's pretty cut and dry.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Few people would describe my X/Y as manipulation. Maybe I am wrong.


The other thing to consider is the car dealer is expecting you to negotiate and try to manipulate them into selling for a lower price and you expect them to do the same. You both understand the whole dynamic of the situation. Your husband on the other hand is totally clueless that he has any room to negotiate. As far as he knows he only has one choice, because you haven't told him he has any other options.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you are willing to absolve an affair you willing to accept a non-monogamous marriage, at least for some period of time.


I suppose, in some strictly definitional sense, that is true, but most people do not equate non-monogamy and infidelity, even if technically they have the same meaning.



> I'm a little confused by your last statement. We can have a whole discussion about whether or not saying you would forgive an affair is the same as permission to have an affair. However, I don't see how saying that is manipulating them into being monogamous.


The implication being that the fear of a guaranteed divorce and all that comes with it is one of the primary reasons they have for not cheating. Holding this implied repercussion over their head without informing them that at least under some circumstances you would consider not imposing it would be a manipulation.

That's about as clearly as I can spell it out - you are not obligated to agree.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The other thing to consider is the car dealer is expecting you to negotiate and try to manipulate them into selling for a lower price and you expect them to do the same. You both understand the whole dynamic of the situation. *Your husband on the other hand is totally clueless that he has any room to negotiate. As far as he knows he only has one choice, because you haven't told him he has any other options*.


You have no way to know this for sure.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Cletus said:


> I suppose, in some strictly definitional sense, that is true, but most people do not equate non-monogamy and infidelity, even if technically they have the same meaning.
> 
> 
> 
> The implication being that the fear of a guaranteed divorce and all that comes with it is one of the primary reasons they have for not cheating. Holding this implied repercussion over their head without informing them that at least under some circumstances you would consider not imposing it would be a manipulation.


Infidelity is one sided non-monogamy. 

The threat of divorce if you cheat may seem a bit like manipulation, but it isn't because you both agreed to it. Everyone goes in eyes wide open that the rules of the marriage include fidelity and monogamy, assuming that is in your vows and what you discussed at the time of marriage.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> You have no way to know this for sure.


I don't know it for sure, but since it doesn't seem like they have talked about divorce and she has stated she wouldn't tell him that she would talk 0% I assume he has no idea that should would accept it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I don't know it for sure, but since it doesn't seem like they have talked about divorce and she has stated she wouldn't tell him that she would talk 0% I assume he has no idea that should would accept it.


She did touch on this a while back


Sonja said:


> I let it slide into the conversation at supper that only because we are married doesnt mean he cant start a new friendship with someone. He looked surprised and didnt say anything but he understood


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

DTO said:


> Ok, this rubs me the wrong way. He's not good enough to have sex with, but he is good enough to take 50% of what he has?
> 
> How do you feel good about that? Honestly, I don't understand. If a lady became that unattractive and then left wanted, I definitely would not want to enrich myself at her expense. I actually didn't pursue spousal support for that reason.
> 
> This sounds like you (in your mind) have created a no lose scenario. Right now you won't do anything you don't want because you don't have to. But if you leave you'll take 1/2 because the law allows it?


This is where my thoughts were heading.

OP, because of some waffling on yourpart in the conversation here there seems to be some small part of your future think self that you're preparing to leave him in the future. It seems small part of that thought is peeking out.

If not compatible it may be for the best. But tell that clearly to H.

His acceptance of no sex 6 yrs ago certainly contributed to his forward state of mind, and created his today state of mind.

He may have been ready to leave you after one yr of no sex but gave in to your needs which squelched his future hope. 

Yet he may still be thinking he's done everything for you in his mind today believing in you when you say you didn't ever want sex again years ago.

But in reality you may be sandbagging him, now that you're saying it's all on him and now you may want to leave him. You're laying the mental groundwork for this for yourself in some of your comments. 

Perhaps recreating the history a bit here, so you don't feel worse when you shift gears into the I'm leaving because of him, I deserve to be happy mindset.

You should tell this clearly and it may take a few times, to do the right thing.


----------



## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

CountryMike said:


> This is where my thoughts were heading.
> 
> OP, because of some waffling on yourpart in the conversation here there seems to be some small part of your future think self that you're preparing to leave him in the future. It seems small part of that thought is peeking out.
> 
> ...


Or and let me be clear, like you this is just a guess. 
While she doesn't like the fact that he has let himself go, she doesn't put nearly as high of a priority on it as she does with other things. I don't like my wife's cooking but it doesn't mean I am going to use it as an excuse to leave.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> This is where my thoughts were heading.
> 
> OP, because of some waffling on yourpart in the conversation here there seems to be some small part of your future think self that you're preparing to leave him in the future. It seems small part of that thought is peeking out.
> 
> ...


By my fault I created the impression I ponder divorce. I dont. Its true I‘d go that route if the conversation turned dull non-end, but in reality, its stimulating and meaningful as it ever was. As to the sexual, the ball has been in his court for six years; I can do without going forward indefinitely. Its like the rest of life without ice cream. Its not a divorce ground.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Sonja said:


> By my fault I created the impression I ponder divorce. I dont. Its true I‘d go that route if the conversation turned dull non-end, but in reality, its stimulating and meaningful as it ever was. As to the sexual, the ball has been in his court for six years; I can do without going forward indefinitely. Its like the rest of life without ice cream.


So you have a companionate marriage now, and you say it's OK.

Why then did you start this thread?


----------



## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Cletus said:


> So you have a companionate marriage now, and you say it's OK.
> 
> Why then did you start this thread?


She was asked to in another thread.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Or and let me be clear, like you this is just a guess.
> While she doesn't like the fact that he has let himself go, she doesn't put nearly as high of a priority on it as she does with other things. I don't like my wife's cooking but it doesn't mean I am going to use it as an excuse to leave.


My belief is that as soon as OP feels a tingle for someone she'll tell herself that she deserves it.

And it will happen. Some shift in her psychological maturation will happen, perhaps as her own SMV begins to drop more and she realizes that she really does want a little sex she'll believe shes entitled. Imho of course.

Some of her words now let that show a bit.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Cletus said:


> So you have a companionate marriage now, and you say it's OK.
> 
> Why then did you start this thread?


I started the thread as I was asked to; and as by conversation I find it easier to organise my thoughts and know what they are. I really appreciate the art of good questions and am grateful to the people who ask them. Thats different from evaluations, which I dont care for.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> My belief is that as soon as OP feels a tingle for someone she'll tell herself that she deserves it.
> 
> And it will happen. Some shift in her psychological maturation will happen, perhaps as her own SMV begins to drop more and she realizes that she really does want a little sex she'll believe shes entitled. Imho of course.
> 
> Some of her words now let that show a bit.


Almost all women receive sexual offers. Considering any would be a negative to my life, and I dont go that route.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> The standard here has been the meaning of the word. It's pretty cut and dry.


That answer confuses me.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> What is popular is not always right. Most people would refuse to look at the word as anything but negative. The same trap people fall into is with the word ignorant. Looking at things through our own personal bias skews them.
> Take this whole thread for instance, many still can't wrap their heads around it because of how they view marriage. It doesn't make your marriage wrong.


Yes. The answer to „you manipulate“ is to look the person in the eye and say you havent made a point yet. I see no problem with strategic decision making.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The other thing to consider is the car dealer is expecting you to negotiate and try to manipulate them into selling for a lower price and you expect them to do the same. You both understand the whole dynamic of the situation. Your husband on the other hand is totally clueless that he has any room to negotiate. As far as he knows he only has one choice, because you haven't told him he has any other options.


Well thats not really relevant. We talked about a definition „when X then Y“ and my proposition was you cant hold on to that definition for long without qualifying. And you already qualify. 

After a 100 scenarios with 100 different qualifiers not much remains of a definition. A definition is pure and applies 100% all the time, and needs no qualifier.

And by that definition, most negotiations are manipulations. And if so, manipulation becomes reduced to a descriptive term, not evaluative.


----------



## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> That answer confuses me.


you said


Sonja said:


> „Right“ is a dangerous word without saying what the standard is.


I replied with


uphillbattle said:


> The standard here has been the meaning of the word. It's pretty cut and dry.


I don't believe there is much room here for misinterpretation.


----------



## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Yes. The answer to „you manipulate“ is to look the person in the eye and say you havent made a point yet. I see no problem with strategic decision making.


I know you have at least 5 different conversations going on at the same time but I never said there was a problem with what you were doing.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Few people would describe my X/Y as manipulation. Maybe I am wrong.


Yeah you're wrong. About 100% of people would consider it manipulation and self-serving. 

It's not really going to matter that much though. Youre gonna get what the court decides youre gonna get based a wide and complex variety of factors and whatever each of your lawyers are able to pull off.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Well thats not really relevant. We talked about a definition „when X then Y“ and my proposition was you cant hold on to that definition for long without qualifying. And you already qualify.
> 
> After a 100 scenarios with 100 different qualifiers not much remains of a definition. A definition is pure and applies 100% all the time, and needs no qualifier.
> 
> ...


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Well thats not really relevant. We talked about a definition „when X then Y“ and my proposition was you cant hold on to that definition for long without qualifying. And you already qualify.
> 
> After a 100 scenarios with 100 different qualifiers not much remains of a definition. A definition is pure and applies 100% all the time, and needs no qualifier.
> 
> And by that definition, most negotiations are manipulations. And if so, manipulation becomes reduced to a descriptive term, not evaluative.


It was just further clarification. 

Your withholding of information is still manipulative.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah you're wrong. About 100% of people would consider it manipulation and self-serving.
> 
> It's not really going to matter that much though. Youre gonna get what the court decides youre gonna get based a wide and complex variety of factors and whatever each of your lawyers are able to pull off.


Your answer makes me question if you skipped a few posts?


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> It was just further clarification.
> 
> Your withholding of information is still manipulative.


So what? Any time you negotiate with less than fully open cards, you are manipulative by that definition _shrugs shoulders_


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The other thing to consider is the car dealer is expecting you to negotiate and try to manipulate them into selling for a lower price and you expect them to do the same. You both understand the whole dynamic of the situation. Your husband on the other hand is totally clueless that he has any room to negotiate. As far as he knows he only has one choice, because you haven't told him he has any other options.


I think he knows his options better than she does. 

I think we need to rethink that her H is some down and out overweight simp that has to live on whatever scraps of attention this Ice Queen throws at him or that he is some kind of babe in the woods naive innocent. 

From her descriptions over the course of the thread, he sounds educated, well read and well spoken and very financially successful. 

He has been with her for years and knows what kind of woman she is and what she is capable of doing. 

If he files on her, he is going to do his homework first and know his rights, responsibilities and entitlements. 

If she files first, he will muster his legal and financial team to respond in kind.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I think he knows his options better than she does.
> 
> I think we need to rethink that her H is some down and out overweight simp that has to live on whatever scraps of attention this Ice Queen throws at him or that he is some kind of babe in the woods naive innocent.
> 
> ...


I think thats a fair description. Yes.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Your answer makes me question if you skipped a few posts?


I'm sure skipped over a few because I think this line of discussion is irrelevant. 

Neither of you has filed for divorce. 

You haven't even said you want a divorce. 

You haven't said anything about him mentioning divorce. 

So whether you tell him or don't tell him what you want out of a divorce isn't really,,, and even if you did, the court is going to award each of you whatever is required by law. 
So none of this line of discussion is even germane to any of the actual issues of this thread.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I'm sure skipped over a few because I think this line of discussion is irrelevant.
> 
> Neither of you has filed for divorce.
> 
> ...


Correct. I said earlier there is no point in discussing the provided definition of „manipulation“ as it cant be sustained under scrutiny. Somehow I still let get myself dragged into a discussion of that definition, which is on me and my mistake. The outcome was that the definition can only be sustained without qualifier by removing the moral wrong from the definition, unless one is prepared to call all negotiations that play with less than open cards morally wrong. I think thats a fair summary of that side issue.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What was his response when you told him you were no longer attracted to him due to his weight gain?


He changed the topic and didnt want to talk about the weight. That was 6 years ago. He is an adult, not a child, thus he consciously chooses to keep the weight.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I don't really see the problem. The whole arrangement is based on free will. The husband is free to have sex on the side and to divorce his wife. He is free to lose weight and have sex with his wife. He is free to leave her money or to leave her nothing. Sonja won't complain. It's clearly an unusual arrangement, but nobody is forced to do anything and they enjoy a good conversation...


Yes. I dont see how I constrain him. He is free to stay married, have a quality woman on the side, and normal family life.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Yes. I dont see how I constrain him. He is free to stay married, have a quality woman on the side, and normal family life.


Quality in your opinion, correct?

Do you and your husband engage in any non-sexual forms of intimacy? What is the purpose of getting married in your opinion and why did you marry your husband?

edit...

Have you always felt this way? When you got married did you think there was any chance that 5-10 years down the road you would call off all sex and open your marriage?


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> By my fault I created the impression I ponder divorce. I dont. Its true I‘d go that route if the conversation turned dull non-end, but in reality, its stimulating and meaningful as it ever was. As to the sexual, the ball has been in his court for six years; I can do without going forward indefinitely. Its like the rest of life without ice cream. Its not a divorce ground.


I certainly could be mistaken, and hope your M remains solid. However there is a small vibe that it won't be enough through to the end.

The way you've said the ball is all in his court...that's almost never true. It's most always a little of each. Best of luck though.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> You have no way to know this for sure.


Yes. My husband knows me enough that I am not after money.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Quality in your opinion, correct?
> 
> Do you and your husband engage in any non-sexual forms of intimacy? What is the purpose of getting married to you and why did you marry your husband?


Quality in his opinion. That I framed carefully. I had stated „a woman he would feel no shame about if all the world found out“.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> I don't really see the problem. The whole arrangement is based on free will. The husband is free to have sex on the side and to divorce his wife. He is free to lose weight and have sex with his wife. He is free to leave her money or to leave her nothing. Sonja won't complain. It's clearly an unusual arrangement, but nobody is forced to do anything and they enjoy a good conversation...


This is a poll based on these facts: how many husbands, after his W tells him no sex but it's ok if you have sex with other women at will, would think their M is rock solid?

This to perhaps add more info for OPs use.

This aren't always as rosy as one thinks.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Quality in your opinion, correct?
> 
> Do you and your husband engage in any non-sexual forms of intimacy? What is the purpose of getting married in your opinion and why did you marry your husband?
> 
> ...


There is emotive intimacy. Effectively I support him through centering and calming him. I know I can do that better than any person he ever met.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Quality in his opinion. That I framed carefully. I had stated „a woman he would feel no shame about if all the world found out“.


Honestly, most guys have that same, all guys believe they have same, but normally with sex.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> There is emotive intimacy. Effectively I support him through centering and calming him. I know I can do that better than any person he ever met.


No sex whatsoever??


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> you said
> 
> I replied with
> 
> I don't believe there is much room here for misinterpretation.


I am still confused.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Quality in his opinion. That I framed carefully. I had stated „a woman he would feel no shame about if all the world found out“.


No, actually you didn't. That isn't what you said previously...



Sonja said:


> If I ever learned of an outside relation with* anything other than what I consider a quality woman*, I‘d conclude thats the best he can do( and promptly divorce.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Quality in your opinion, correct?
> 
> Do you and your husband engage in any non-sexual forms of intimacy? What is the purpose of getting married in your opinion and why did you marry your husband?
> 
> ...


No. I did not. Its sub optimal. I am a mathematician and economist by profession and call it „constrained optimisation“.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> I certainly could be mistaken, and hope your M remains solid. However there is a small vibe that it won't be enough through to the end.
> 
> The way you've said the ball is all in his court...that's almost never true. It's most always a little of each. Best of luck though.


Thank you.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Yes. I dont see how I constrain him. He is free to stay married, have a quality woman on the side, and normal family life.


If you really feel that way, why haven't you had that discussion with him? I don't mean an offhand comment over dinner. I mean state it as clearly and concisely as you have here so he has the full picture of your view on this marriage. That way he can exercise that freedom of choice you say you want for him.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> Honestly, most guys have that same, all guys believe they have same, but normally with sex.


Not true. I know of men even in famous positions who publicly clearly felt ashamed when their affair was revealed, not because of the affair itself, but the how. The tennis star Becker, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Schwarzenegger all visibly were ashamed. Its one thing to have a suitable affair, quite another, to sex the cleaning girl of your hotel in the janitor‘s closet who you just met, just because she is willing. Bill Clinton actually said it well after year of reflection: his mistake with Monica was to do it with her, just because he could.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> No sex whatsoever??


Correct.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> No, actually you didn't. That isn't what you said previously...


I said both. That is on me and I thank for pointing out. My criterion is if he feels ashamed if it came out (and thats an assessment unless it comes out.)


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Correct.


You will, one day, be open to another male who starts to lavish attention on you and shows you physical appreciation of you as a whole woman.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If you really feel that way, why haven't you had that discussion with him? I don't mean an offhand comment over dinner. I mean state it as clearly and concisely as you have here so he has the full picture of your view on this marriage. That way he can exercise that freedom of choice you say you want for him.


Call me old fashioned that I wont openly tell him he can have a girlfriend. I am a woman of taste (my taste) and choose not to see. Thats how far I‘ll go.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> You will, one day, be open to another male who starts to lavish attention on you and shows you physical appreciation of you as a whole woman.


I choose not to think about that.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Not true. I know of men even in famous positions who publicly clearly felt ashamed when their affair was revealed, not because of the affair itself, but the how. The tennis star Becker, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, Schwarzenegger all visibly were ashamed. Its one thing to have a suitable affair, quite another, to sex the cleaning girl of your hotel in the janitor‘s closet who you just met, just because she is willing. Bill Clinton actually said it well after year of reflection: his mistake with Monica was to do it with her, because he could.





Sonja said:


> I said both. That is on me and I thank for pointing out. My criterion is if he feels ashamed if it came out (and thats an assessment unless it comes out.)


None of those guys were ashamed because of who they did it with. They were ashamed because they got caught or maybe betraying their spouse. Are you really suggesting that Bill Clinton wouldn't have been ashamed if the affair was with someone appropriate for his station in life? Since Monica was so far below him he was ashamed. If his affair had been with a cabinet member he wouldn't have been ashamed? If that isn't an elitist attitude I don't know what is.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Call me old fashioned that I wont openly tell him he can have a girlfriend. I am a woman of taste (my taste) and choose not to see. Thats how far I‘ll go.


Bear in mind he won't believe he could have another woman or several without repercussions, unless you expressly tell him, and that several times.

Most men would even then believe they were being set up. Some already highly sexed men would go for it.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> None of those guys were ashamed because of who they did it with. They were ashamed because they got caught or maybe betraying their spouse. Are you really suggesting that Bill Clinton wouldn't have been ashamed if the affair was with someone appropriate for his station in life? Since Monica was so far below him he was ashamed. If his affair had been with a cabinet member he wouldn't have been ashamed? If that isn't an elitist attitude I don't know what is.


We don't know that wild Willy didn't have sex with other women higher up on the political food chain. We'll never know.

My bet is yes there are many other affairs he had, just kept on the better down low.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> None of those guys were ashamed because of who they did it with. They were ashamed because they got caught or maybe betraying their spouse. Are you really suggesting that Bill Clinton wouldn't have been ashamed if the affair was with someone appropriate for his station in life? Since Monica was so far below him he was ashamed. If his affair had been with a cabinet member he wouldn't have been ashamed? If that isn't an elitist attitude I don't know what is.


You see an affair with a person you just met in a broom closet equivalent to a loving relation with a woman you’d marry if the circumstances were right. You are free to think so. I do not.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Call me old fashioned that I wont openly tell him he can have a girlfriend. I am a woman of taste (my taste) and choose not to see. Thats how far I‘ll go.


So again you choose to withhold information from your husband preventing him from making a fully educated choice. I'm sure his expectation when he got married was that he had to be monogamous forever. You no longer care about that, but choose not to tell him. You are asking for mind reading from your husband. Would you rather just have him sneak around? Suppose he had an affair with a woman younger, more attractive, wealthier and more intelligent than you. If you caught him in this affair and expressed his shame for cheating on you, would you divorce him? He was ashamed, correct?


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So again you choose to withhold information from your husband preventing him from making a fully educated choice. I'm sure his expectation when he got married was that he had to be monogamous forever. You no longer care about that, but choose not to tell him. You are asking for mind reading from your husband. Would you rather just have him sneak around? Suppose he had an affair with a woman younger, more attractive, wealthier and more intelligent than you. If you caught him in this affair and expressed his shame for cheating on you, would you divorce him? He was ashamed, correct?


no he would not be ashamed but content he attracted a quality woman.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> You see an affair with a person you just met in a broom closet equivalent to a loving relation with a woman you’d marry if the circumstances were right. You are free to think so. I do not.


Are you saying that if your husband found a woman he could fall in love with and would want to marry, that affair would be okay, but a beautiful and smart woman that he has a purely sexual affair is not okay? It sounds like you want to give away your husband to a more deserving woman.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> no he would not be ashamed but content he attracted a quality woman.


Your husband would not be ashamed for lying to you or sneaking around having sex with another woman and not telling you?


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> You see an affair with a person you just met in a broom closet equivalent to a loving relation with a woman you’d marry if the circumstances were right. You are free to think so. I do not.


But that's an answer, too, because many a cultured woman would have sex in a closet.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Are you saying that if your husband found a woman he could fall in love with and would want to marry, that affair would be okay, but a beautiful and smart woman that he has a purely sexual affair is not okay? It sounds like you want to give away your husband to a more deserving woman.


Correct. A purely sexual affair is more unforgivable than one based on love.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Your husband would not be ashamed for lying to you or sneaking around having sex with another woman and not telling you?


No. The shame he feels would definitely depend on who is the woman.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> No. The shame he feels would definitely depend on who is the woman.


His only regret would be that he got in trouble that he got caught. Not shame, if she was a hot woman.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> His only regret would be that he got in trouble that he got caught. Not shame, if she was a hot woman.


Correct. The best woman he can attract. Not the first that is willing. The first is honourable, the second, shameful.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Correct.


So all this said, you're really NOT ok with him having women on the side?


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Correct. A purely sexual affair is *more* unforgivable than one based on love.


MORE unforgivable. So, one based on love is still unforgivable?

You seem to change your position. First you said a you would divorce if it wasn't a quality woman in your opinion. Then it was a quality woman in his opinion. Now the "quality" of the woman isn't the deciding factor it is the reasons for the affair.

You are not making a lot of sense here.
You say your marriage is all great, but there is no sex. You claim you are okay with him going outside of the marriage for sex, but if the affair is only about sex then it is unforgivable. So his only option is an affair with someone he will fall in love with. That will result in divorce and him going with the woman he loves. That all makes no sense, total insanity.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> So all this said, you're really NOT ok with him having women on the side?


EXACTLY!


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

CountryMike said:


> So all this said, you're really NOT ok with him having women on the side?


I am ok with it. With the best woman he can attract. Not the first that is willing. The first is honourable, the second, shameful. (as said)


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I am ok with it. With the best woman he can attract. Not the first that is willing. The first is honourable, the second, shameful. (as said)


That doesnt mean he’ll leave me.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> That doesnt mean he’ll leave me.


If he gets motivated it would be several, or should be.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> MORE unforgivable. So, one based on love is still unforgivable?
> 
> You seem to change your position. First you said a you would divorce if it wasn't a quality woman in your opinion. Then it was a quality woman in his opinion. Now the "quality" of the woman isn't the deciding factor it is the reasons for the affair.
> 
> ...


Excuse my sloppy language. A love based affair is forgivable. The part where you say new love results in divorce with me is incorrect. That holds only true for people who find the tension of a double life unbearable.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Excuse my sloppy language. A love based affair is forgivable. The part where you say new love results in divorce with me is incorrect. That holds only true for people who find the tension of a double life unbearable.


I think your "sloppy" language reveals truth in how you really feel. You can't plainly say one thing, then claim you said/meant, something else. 

The new love resulting in divorce could be wrong, but more likely than not it is correct. And he wouldn't be living a double life if you just gave him permission to find another woman. Then you could set boundaries around how much time you get vs her. Otherwise time with you and your son will suffer.


----------



## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I think your "sloppy" language reveals truth in how you really feel. You can't plainly say one thing, then claim you said/meant, something else.
> 
> The new love resulting in divorce could be wrong, but more likely than not it is correct. And he wouldn't be living a double life if you just gave him permission to find another woman. Then you could set boundaries around how much time you get vs her. Otherwise time with you and your son will suffer.


Much clarity here 👍.


----------



## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Excuse my sloppy language. A love based affair is forgivable. The part where you say new love results in divorce with me is incorrect. That holds only true for people who find the tension of a double life unbearable.


Life i


CountryMike said:


> Much clarity here 👍.


Thats a risk I take. I am willing to turn a blind eye to a love based affair.


----------



## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Life i
> 
> Thats a risk I take. I am willing to turn a blind eye to a love based affair.


Your willingness to gamble with your marriage and family is very concerning. He can only have an extramarital affairs if he falls in love with the woman. Do you realize that sounds completely insane to 99.9% of the women out there?


Your husband is allowed to fall in love with another woman and have sex with her, but he doesn't know it and you won't tell him. If his sexual urges get the best of him and hides a sex only affair you will divorce him. Doesn't sound like he has much free choice


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Your willingness to gamble with your marriage and family is very concerning. He can only have an extramarital affairs if he falls in love with the woman. Do you realize that sounds completely insane to 99.9% of the women out there?
> 
> 
> Your husband is allowed to fall in love with another woman and have sex with her, but he doesn't know it and you won't tell him. If his sexual urges get the best of him and hides a sex only affair you will divorce him. Doesn't sound like he has much free choice


Well, I am who I am. I apply the totality of my upbringing, character, personality, soul and mind and original insight to the table. I assume others do too, and so what other women/men think is just not relevant. In the end, people make claims to me from all directions of life. I must evaluate those claims in some sense. At that task, I am existentially alone. In the end, the answers to life‘s essential questions pearl up, usually from meditative silence. So they are MY answers. I enjoy and get value from alternate ways to see life, but I am not existentially shaken.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Correct. A purely sexual affair is more unforgivable than one based on love.


This one stopped me for about 30 min just trying to get my head around. I think I get it now. 

I have a question for you. What is your I.Q.? Yes, I know you know what it is or about what it is.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> This one stopped me for about 30 min just trying to get my head around. I think I get it now.
> 
> I have a question for you. What is your I.Q.? Yes, I know you know what it is or about what it is.


Nothing special. I tested once for 127, for what its worth.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Nothing special. I tested once for 127, for what its worth.


What's his?


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## Deepsouthdude (Feb 12, 2020)

Why is a purely sexual affair more unforgivable than one based on love? It seems a purely sexual affair would be replacing the sex he isn’t getting in the marriage but one based on love would be replacing more than just what he’s not getting.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> What's his?


Unsure but probably higher.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Deepsouthdude said:


> Why is a purely sexual affair more unforgivable than one based on love? It seems a purely sexual affair would be replacing the sex he isn’t getting in the marriage but one based on love would be replacing more than just what he’s not getting.


Among my values is that sexuality is exchange of spirit and not just penis-vagina friction, the latter when done alone, does violence to the soul. I am convinced of this.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Among my values is that sexuality is exchange of spirit and not just penis-vagina friction, the latter when done alone, does violence to the soul. I am convinced of this.


If you have no interest in him sexually, why do you believe you should be able to dictate what HE wants, what HE finds attractive, and what HE values sexually? You refuse to share sexuality with him at all, because of purely physical reasons, so why do you believe your spiritual values of sexuality should be his?
Maybe PIV friction and orgasm are nourishing to his soul, no matter who he does it with. Maybe it would be violence to your soul but not HIS.

And you haven't had sex in over 6 years, and even then you said it wasn't orgasmic...so how can you say orgasm from sexual giving ("friction") does harm to the soul...? What do you base that on...How do you even know?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> I also want to throw out there that I do not know if Sonja has ever heard of the term Responsive Desire before but she has described it to a "T" a couple different times when she says "...if I don't feel it in my body."
> 
> That is what responsive desire is. RD is your body responding sexually even though your mind may not be engaged sexually at that moment. As your body becomes more stimulated and responsive, so too does your mind and emotional state (if you allow it to)
> 
> ...


Yes a man must present me with a strong reality for attraction to occur, even the best body isnt enough of a turn-on. The strong reality must be inviting enough that I feel a desire to enter it. A man with a life plan, sense of purpose, self discipline, who values himself as the prize to be won, strong presence and reality, is highly attractive to me, as long as his body is also tuned. I met four such men in my life, my husband included.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> If you have no interest in him sexually, why do you believe you should be able to dictate what HE wants, what HE finds attractive, and what HE values sexually? You refuse to share sexuality with him at all, because of purely physical reasons, so why do you believe your spiritual values of sexuality should be his?
> Maybe PIV friction and orgasm are nourishing to his soul, no matter who he does it with. Maybe it would be violence to your soul but not HIS.
> 
> And you haven't had sex in over 6 years, and even then you said it wasn't orgasmic...so how can you say orgasm from sexual giving ("friction") does harm to the soul...? What do you base that on...How do you even know?


He can sleep with who he wants, and I make my evaluation what I accept.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> If you have no interest in him sexually, why do you believe you should be able to dictate what HE wants, what HE finds attractive, and what HE values sexually? You refuse to share sexuality with him at all, because of purely physical reasons, so why do you believe your spiritual values of sexuality should be his?
> Maybe PIV friction and orgasm are nourishing to his soul, no matter who he does it with. Maybe it would be violence to your soul but not HIS.
> 
> And you haven't had sex in over 6 years, and even then you said it wasn't orgasmic...so how can you say orgasm from sexual giving ("friction") does harm to the soul...? What do you base that on...How do you even know?


For the harming the soul part: I base this on intuitions gained over my life observations. I trust my intuitions. That by no means precludes that yours are different, or that you even base your values on gained intuitions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> You see an affair with a person you just met in a broom closet equivalent to a loving relation with a woman you’d marry if the circumstances were right. You are free to think so. I do not.


Hey, I am the only that's allowed to use the broom closet analogy around here!!!


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> If you have no interest in him sexually, why do you believe you should be able to dictate what HE wants, what HE finds attractive, and what HE values sexually? You refuse to share sexuality with him at all, because of purely physical reasons, so why do you believe your spiritual values of sexuality should be his?
> Maybe PIV friction and orgasm are nourishing to his soul, no matter who he does it with. Maybe it would be violence to your soul but not HIS.
> 
> And you haven't had sex in over 6 years, and even then you said it wasn't orgasmic...so how can you say orgasm from sexual giving ("friction") does harm to the soul...? What do you base that on...How do you even know?


I dont like to share physically intimate details of my life on the Internet, but it is useful to correct the above that I am orgasmic from stimulation but not penetration, which is true for many women.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Hey, I am the only that's allowed to use the broom closet analogy around here!!!


Is this an inside joke?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja, how much have you enjoyed this as an intellectual exercise?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Sonja, how much have you enjoyed this as an intellectual exercise?


Is the real question if this the thread is an intellectual exercise for me? It is not. Its helpful to organise my thoughts and I am grateful for the commentaries and the good questions.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> I am ok with it. With the best woman he can attract. Not the first that is willing. The first is honourable, the second, shameful. (as said)


(to the rest of the posters)

I actually understand where she is coming from here. 

It's an old European ethos amongst the noble. A blind eye was often turned towards the dalliances of the Lord of the Manor provided it was with a lady of proper social standing and within his own or higher social/political caste. 

The Lady of the Manor was within her right to be scorned if his paramour was a commoner or of the peasantry but if she was of nobility then the Lady was to mind her own affairs and not rock the boat or bring shame, scandal or distaste to the family.
If the paramour was of even higher class than he, then the Lady should look upon him with pride and admiration that he was able to win the affections and desire of a lady of such standing.

To put this into more practical and 2021 western hemisphere terms, She doesn't want sex with him but she is ok with him getting it elsewhere as long as the woman in question is of good social standing and someone that people (including Sonja herself) would pat him on the back and say, "good job!" and not look down on him as desperate enough to stick it in some lesser woman to drain his tank.

If the other woman is of higher status, then Sonja would look up to admire him for his prowess and desirability. But if she is some ho, then she would be disgusted at his lowbrow desperation to score some tail. 

It is a part of hypergamy and it is a thing. She is not really alone in this philosophy but she is probably more in touch with that feeling and has been more willing to express it than most of the western women that don't want their man touching other women regardless of social caste.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> (to the rest of the posters)
> 
> I actually understand where she is coming from here.
> 
> ...


Yes nicely explained! It shows I am Austrian/French after all.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> Well, I am who I am. I apply the totality of my upbringing, character, personality, soul and mind and original insight to the table. I assume others do too, and so what other women/men think is just not relevant. In the end, people make claims to me from all directions of life. I must evaluate those claims in some sense. At that task, I am existentially alone. In the end, the answers to life‘s essential questions pearl up, usually from meditative silence. So they are MY answers. I enjoy and get value from alternate ways to see life, but I am not existentially shaken.


Since you are a fan of philosophy, I shall quote the great philosopher Mike Tyson who is credited with saying, "everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face."

I believe you to be very intelligent and very in tune with your thoughts and feelings and I believe you assess much of the world around you through mindful analysis as well and through a philosophical lens. Many highly cerebral people do so and they account for the things that happen around them and to them through that analytical and philosophical perspective - 

but they still hurt when it happens to them. 

I believe we are creatures of the earth and no matter how smart or educated or intelligent or philosophical we may be, we still have the same emotions and the same emotional nomenclature and componentry as everyone else. Our brains do not shield our hearts. 

You haven't responded at all to my lengthy posts on my analysis of your situation at all. I find your silence quite deafening. I was hoping for at least a rebuttal to say that I am way out of my mind. A part of me hopes that I am quite mistaken. 

Some day your husband is going to find someone else. If I had to make a bet, my money would be on that he already has. She may or may not meet your standards for what a proper lady of his stature should be. He may simply dig her because she has nice t!ts. 

I think when he comes home and hands you the papers to sign, you will be quite sad and your heart will ache. You may be able to use your Jedi Mind tricks and your Zen to try to numb the pain... but your heart will ache nonetheless. I believe it already is aching that he hasn't approached you or touched you or even inquired about your feelings towards him in 6 years. It hurts me to think about that. 

I also believe that some day soon you will encounter Sven From Yoga and he will wink at you with his chrystal blue eyes and give a toss of his flowing blond hair and you will be thunderstruck that you are soaking your panties and you can't stop your heart from racing and you can't get back control of your thoughts or feelings. Your confusion of your own sexuality vs your marital duties will drive you just as nuts as it would an emotional woman or ditzy blonde. 

Your brain and your spirituality will not protect your heart; nor will they close your vagina. 

That's all ok, I'm not judging or pointing fingers. You can choose your own path and try to live your own life. But don't think you can deny your humanity and have that shield your heart or spare you from the pain of loss or the exhilaration and stark terror of lust and passion. 

At least know what you are risking and what you stand to lose as well as gain.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I still think it’s possible her husband is similar to her and he honestly could care less about no sex. Who knows?

6 years is an eternity. 6 months is like an ice age or two. 6 days is pretty bad. 6 hours is ok. 6 minutes now you’re pushing it…


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ccpowerslave said:


> I still think it’s possible her husband is similar to her and he honestly could care less about no sex. Who knows?


Some people claim to have seen Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. Some even claim that aliens walk amongst us. 

So I guess it could stand to reason that there are some asexuals out there but I don’t know if any have actually been captured and brought and confirmed by scientific research. 

I’m not buying her Ice Queen facade. I don’t think even she is the way she is presenting herself to be here. 

I think she has the same feelings and fears and desires and passions as any other woman. 

And I think he likely has a 99.99% chance of having the same yearnings as the next guy - just not with her obviously. 

Unless they actually are aliens or some kind of pod people, they have the same emotional make up and desires as you and me.... they just have a whole lot of baggage and dysfunction getting in the way.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Since you are a fan of philosophy, I shall quote the great philosopher Mike Tyson who is credited with saying, "everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face."
> 
> I believe you to be very intelligent and very in tune with your thoughts and feelings and I believe you assess much of the world around you through mindful analysis as well and through a philosophical lens. Many highly cerebral people do so and they account for the things that happen around them and to them through that analytical and philosophical perspective -
> 
> ...


You question is of a different kind, under the skin and the best question yet. I‘ll answer it, which you make more difficult by your speculations on how my husband and I tick. Here is the thing. Since as long back as I can remember, I have been interested on what motivates people to do what they do. From the get go. Even my small talk as a teenager had purpose. The girl beside me says she likes to travel. I am the type who will ask the deepening questions. What attracts you to travel. The girl says its to meet other people. I will ask how the conversations where she went are different than the ones at home. And so on. Deepening questions. My experience is that with almost everyone, I will find a topic of mutual interest and explore that topic depth. I am blessed with a nature that bestows me with many true interests, not faked interests. I have as much true interest in how to be a good salesperson as in how to be a good geologist or on how to repair an engine or how to grow broccoli and the like. Education is not important. I find solid interesting conversation topics with almost anyone and fast. And always with deepening questions. Further, since youth, I liked the friendship of older people. I had friends 60 years old who I met for coffee when I was 17. Same age of course too. But I like to spend time with older people. Even now, I volunteer at a hospice where I get to know people in depth during their last few days or weeks of life. I enjoy listening. I truly enjoy listening. What that gives me is: (a) a fine-tuned intuition of who is a warm-hearted and generally well-meaning person, and (b) people who are not genuine and pretend rather than speak from the soul. When I have intuitive doubts, I cut that person out. I have so far never been wrong on who I let into my life. Honestly, and I have great trust into my intutions from this fact alone. I have never had a friend who later turned against me, or any relation that truly turned sour. Noone has ever sprung a true shocking surprise on me in terms of character. That includes my three former boyfriends. Each was warm, thoughtful, smart, independent and with a strong personality. I am still friends with each of them, all of the three previous relations broke for reasons where there was no loss of warmth or lasting friendship. Also, I am truly not that sexual. Not once since teenage years, and including teenage years, did it happen that I got moist in my underwear just because a man was „hot“. That was never enough. I am attracted to a whole package when it is there, and that must include respect and admiration for starters. I don‘t give neither out like candy, those are earned. — to be continued next post


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Since you are a fan of philosophy, I shall quote the great philosopher Mike Tyson who is credited with saying, "everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face."
> 
> I believe you to be very intelligent and very in tune with your thoughts and feelings and I believe you assess much of the world around you through mindful analysis as well and through a philosophical lens. Many highly cerebral people do so and they account for the things that happen around them and to them through that analytical and philosophical perspective -
> 
> ...


(Part 2, continued from Post #383)
Your conjecture thus, that my husband is suddenly going to spring a divorce on me or sleep with bimbos in the bush, is so far from my prior life experience that if it happened, it‘d be an existential crisis as it would mean that I cannot trust my intuitions anymore and therefore have no basis to make decisions going forward. It would mean that I misjudged my husband from the start that - no matter what circumstance - he is the type of person who bangs bimbos in the bush , and worse still, leaves me and the child to live with the bimbo who he banged in the bush. I don‘t entertain this possibility. Twenty years of teen/young adult/adult life experience never let me to such an outcome and such a catastrophic misjudgement of character, and that I would have married such a person. I have been with him for 9 years and am certain that this is not in him. (Continued in Part 3)


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Since you are a fan of philosophy, I shall quote the great philosopher Mike Tyson who is credited with saying, "everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face."
> 
> I believe you to be very intelligent and very in tune with your thoughts and feelings and I believe you assess much of the world around you through mindful analysis as well and through a philosophical lens. Many highly cerebral people do so and they account for the things that happen around them and to them through that analytical and philosophical perspective -
> 
> ...


(Part 3)

Sexuality was not a big element to our relation prior to marriage either. We slept with each other twice a month, or less, and that was fine by him and by me. When it happened, it was always loving and truly intimate. Like me, with his previous two girlfriends the basis for sexuality was loving intimacy. He probably misses that and so do I, but the lack of physical attraction shuts the door on this and the ball really is in his court. If he met another woman who accepts his weight and offers him soul intimacy, he‘ll be tempted. I am certain he won‘t leave me even if the other woman asked him to, and even if love was there. He has a strong sense of responsibility. It will not pass his conscience to leave wife and child for a new woman. He cannot live with himself doing this. His conscience is going to hit him about it day and night. That is the kind of person he is and that is part of why I married him. He is supremely responsible, rarely does anything rash, and never anything destructive. (continued in Part 4)


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Since you are a fan of philosophy, I shall quote the great philosopher Mike Tyson who is credited with saying, "everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face."
> 
> I believe you to be very intelligent and very in tune with your thoughts and feelings and I believe you assess much of the world around you through mindful analysis as well and through a philosophical lens. Many highly cerebral people do so and they account for the things that happen around them and to them through that analytical and philosophical perspective -
> 
> ...


(continued from Part 3)

For myself, yes some intimacy would be nice. My libido is weak (as is my husbands and all my previous boyfriends), but its not zero. With my husband it‘s not an option. Outside marriage is not excluded but not something I am currently open to, much less look for. Your Sven from Yoga made me laugh. If you really thought that‘d attract me — and it reads that way -- it‘s proof that it‘s not possible to know someone even in an elemental way a few days into chatting online. The Svens from Yoga and their equivalents have not moistened anything in me in my 20 years of sexual awareness. As a 35 year old woman, I know who my type is. If I met such a type of man and he pursued me, I get tempted. But I am generally a mind type and won‘t do anything to harm the marriage and family life. It‘s much easier to destroy than to build. I generally hang on to what is good in life. 

How far does that go to answer your question?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

[QUOTE="oldshirt, post: 20381028, member: 284017"
Unless they actually are aliens or some kind of pod people, they have the same emotional make up and desires as you and me.... 
[/QUOTE]
Now you make me curious. What is a descriptive list of the emotional make up and desires that you say everyone has?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> [QUOTE="oldshirt, post: 20381028, member: 284017"
> Unless they actually are aliens or some kind of pod people, they have the same emotional make up and desires as you and me....


Now you make me curious. What is a descriptive list of the emotional make up and desires that you say everyone has?
[/QUOTE]

If you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Now you make me curious. What is a descriptive list of the emotional make up and desires that you say everyone has?


If you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.
[/QUOTE]
I think that‘s a copout as you have difficulty writing down a list.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Sonja said:


> (continued from Part 3)
> 
> 
> How far does that go to answer your question?


That goes a long way to address a question. 

The problem is I am not sure which question you are actually addressing. 

I think in a roundabout way, what you are answering is the question of what you are willing to bet that your H is in the 0.01%. 
If your intent was a man not prone to hit the road due to lack of physical intimacy, you have done your homework, I will give you that. 

The big question for us all here is whether your skills at finding needle out of world of haystacks is more powerful than human nature itself. 

I will need to digest and meditate on this further.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sonja said:


> He changed the topic and didnt want to talk about the weight. That was 6 years ago. He is an adult, not a child, thus he consciously chooses to keep the weight.


Or, and I say this from experience, he doesn't think it well help. That is,, he feels the goal posts will be moved, so to speak. My ex did this until I put my foot down and imposed consequences for her not following through.

Which leads (again) to the question of does he really not mind the lack of sex, or is he just not courageous enough to want to leave?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> Think again.





Sonja said:


> Among my values is that sexuality is exchange of spirit and not just penis-vagina friction, the latter when done alone, does violence to the soul. I am convinced of this.


Yet according to you, the only reason you’re not banging your husband is because he’s too fat. Lol, this is the most bizarre Thinking pattens I’ve seen in a while. You are so shallow you won’t have sex with your own husband because he’s overweight, but yet pretend that sex for you is somehow “violence to the soul” if its less than an “exchange of spirit”. Are you exchanging spirits or just slapping nasties with a guy that you think has a good body?
Your value of sex being something special doesn’t pass the smell test if your attraction comes only from whether his body is fit enough for you. If his “spirit” were so important, you’d be swapping spirits in the dark where his rippling abs wouldn’t be so important.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Sonja said:


> A woman is free to do duty sex for her own reasons, what enraged me a few days ago were comments from a group of people who said something is wrong with a woman if she doesn‘t do that. I am glad they left the conversation.


Nothing wrong with a woman for refusing her man sex.
But there is something wrong with the husband that allows that (without having another woman on the side).


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

@Sonja - speaking hypothetically, you say you have low desire, but I wonder how you would feel if you had a very high sex drive? Would you be able to control it?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sonja said:


> Among my values is that sexuality is exchange of spirit and not just penis-vagina friction, the latter when done alone, does violence to the soul. I am convinced of this.


You're missing out on the outstanding relationship you could be having with a mate. There's nothing so pleasurable to to that brings a couple close together that hot passionate sex while being fully present in the moment. 

When your woman is satisfied and she's laying on your chest slowly relaxing after her third orgasm, there's not much that's more intimate and draws two spouses closer.


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## ElwoodPDowd (Aug 25, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> There's nothing so pleasurable to to that brings a couple close together that hot passionate sex while being fully present in the moment.


Would like to point out that drinking beer and smoking cannabis is just as pleasurable as sex.
And easier to do when you're old.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Yet according to you, the only reason you’re not banging your husband is because he’s too fat. Lol, this is the most bizarre Thinking pattens I’ve seen in a while. You are so shallow you won’t have sex with your own husband because he’s overweight, but yet pretend that sex for you is somehow “violence to the soul” if its less than an “exchange of spirit”. Are you exchanging spirits or just slapping nasties with a guy that you think has a good body?
> Your value of sex being something special doesn’t pass the smell test if your attraction comes only from whether his body is fit enough for you. If his “spirit” were so important, you’d be swapping spirits in the dark where his rippling abs wouldn’t be so important.


This post is abusive in language and attitude. It also adds nothing new. The „lol the most bizarre thinking pattern I have seen in a while“ is when a woman only sleeps with one she considers attractive all way round and puts some sacredness into sex. That makes said woman „shallow“. Take your attitude to the gutter.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> @Sonja - speaking hypothetically, you say you have low desire, but I wonder how you would feel if you had a very high sex drive? Would you be able to control it?


How would I know? I cant answer that.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You're missing out on the outstanding relationship you could be having with a mate. There's nothing so pleasurable to to that brings a couple close together that hot passionate sex while being fully present in the moment.
> 
> When your woman is satisfied and she's laying on your chest slowly relaxing after her third orgasm, there's not much that's more intimate and draws two spouses closer.


Nothing I said denied that?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Would like to point out that drinking beer and smoking cannabis is just as pleasurable as sex.
> And easier to do when you're old.


I can't argue that a good beer and a joint are very pleasurable, but I not as good as an evening of love making with my wife.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> You're missing out on the outstanding relationship you could be having with a mate. There's nothing so pleasurable to to that brings a couple close together that hot passionate sex while being fully present in the moment.
> 
> When your woman is satisfied and she's laying on your chest slowly relaxing after her third orgasm, there's not much that's more intimate and draws two spouses closer.


YAAAAAAYYYY!!!!!!! I am SO happy to see you posting here again!!!!!!!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> This post is abusive in language and attitude. It also adds nothing new. The „lol the most bizarre thinking pattern I have seen in a while“ is when a woman has standards and only sleeps with one she considers attractive all way round. That makes said woman „shallow“. Take your attitude to the gutter.


He could have done a better job of getting his point across, but I feel his point is still valid. Everything you talk about is very deep and soul searching, but then there is this anomaly where you refuse sex due to your husband's weight. Your letting a physical characteristic take priority over all of the other inner beauties of your husband. As a result, you are missing out on a very intimate connection with the man you love. Don't you miss that connection? I guess that connection isn't as important as the physical attraction to you.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> He could have done a better job of getting his point across, but I feel his point is still valid. Everything you talk about is very deep and soul searching, but then there is this anomaly where you refuse sex due to your husband's weight. Your letting a physical characteristic take priority over all of the other inner beauties of your husband. As a result, you are missing out on a very intimate connection with the man you love. Don't you miss that connection? I guess that connection isn't as important as the physical attraction to you.


That in your mind it is an anomaly/bizarre/shallow that a woman sleeps only with a man she considers attractive all way round says more about you than about me.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ElwoodPDowd said:


> Would like to point out that drinking beer and smoking cannabis is just as pleasurable as sex.
> And easier to do when you're old.


Or indulging just before having sex. I'm with you. I'm a basic male at that point. Hot woman, hot time.

Now indulging and kicking back playing guitar runs a close second at times. I'm of the older generation and like to chill and play.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> YAAAAAAYYYY!!!!!!! I am SO happy to see you posting here again!!!!!!!


Thanks. It's been a busy time. Glad to see y'all.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sonja said:


> Nothing I said denied that?


I hope you get to keep on enjoying same. It seems like there's trouble in paradise there.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I hope you get to keep on enjoying same. It seems like there's trouble in paradise there.


there are 400 posts for your reading pleasure on the topic


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sonja said:


> How would I know? I cant answer that.


Fair enough... but this shows me (partially) why you can behave the way you can. With little libido it's fairly easy to ignore sex because you don't feel the urge. But it's a moot point.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sonja said:


> there are 400 posts for your reading pleasure on the topic


I'll just use the cliff notes version. 400 is a lot. Wow. Hope things get better.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> That in your mind it is an anomaly/bizarre/shallow that a woman sleeps only with a man she considers attractive all way round says more about you than about me.


If it weren't the man you are married to I would be on the same page as you. However, this is your husband we are talking about. My perspective is that we should continue to love our spouse regardless of how we change as we age, and if something does go too far you discuss it and solve the problem together. I can't remember who posted it, but there was a husband on here that talked about all the imperfections time has caused on his wife. Among other things, he mentioned a double mastectomy with less than perfect reconstructive surgery, scars, some extra weight. To him all of those things are beautiful because it is his wife. It honestly brought a tear to my eye. After 35 years of being together my wife doesn't have the figure she had when we met. Her skin isn't as clear and smooth as it used to be. Her hair is turning gray. In spite of that I love her more than ever and I desire her, intimately, as much or more than I ever have. I find it disturbing that you will just cut off intimacy with your husband, with barely a discussion, because he got "fat", and ignoring the deep spiritual connection you say that you have with him. It is a very cold and shallow reaction. I guarantee if the genders were reversed in your story there would be a whole chorus of people deriding you for being so shallow and not loving your spouse as they are.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'll just use the cliff notes version. 400 is a lot. Wow. Hope things get better.


Posts #383-386


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> That in your mind it is an anomaly/bizarre/shallow that a woman sleeps only with a man she considers attractive all way round says more about you than about me.


You are not responding to the POINT he is making about this (again).


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> If it weren't the man you are married to I would be on the same page as you. However, this is your husband we are talking about. My perspective is that we should continue to love our spouse regardless of how we change as we age, and if something does go too far you discuss it and solve the problem together. I can't remember who posted it, but there was a husband on here that talked about all the imperfections time has caused on his wife. Among other things, he mentioned a double mastectomy with less than perfect reconstructive surgery, scars, some extra weight. To him all of those things are beautiful because it is his wife. It honestly brought a tear to my eye. After 35 years of being together my wife doesn't have the figure she had when we met. Her skin isn't as clear and smooth as it used to be. Her hair is turning gray. In spite of that I love her more than ever and I desire her, intimately, as much or more than I ever have. I find it disturbing that you will just cut off intimacy with your husband, with barely a discussion, because he got "fat", and ignoring the deep spiritual connection you say that you have with him. It is a very cold and shallow reaction. I guarantee if the genders were reversed in your story there would be a whole chorus of people deriding you for being so shallow and not loving your spouse as they are.


That alone is strange. People come to share from their perspectives and unless they specifically ask for advice, its just human sharing of perspectives. Any evaluation such as shallow and the like, whats the point of that? A conversation stopper? A way to feel virtuous? „There would be a whole chorus“, whats the point of that? Virtue signalling of how good one is and how evil the neighbour? A lynch mob? You can lead your life however you want and I‘ll listen and never throw a dismissive value judgment your way. I will state my own as they apply to my life, descriptively, and I will defend myself when attacked. But dismiss you or anyone for your choices that you make for your own life in an evaluative way? No. And not cause I am good. Just because it stops all genuine conversation when you evaluate and force people into the defensive.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> You are not responding to the POINT he is making about this (again).


I find it shocking when pressure gets applied for people to consent to sex. The circumstances are irrelevant. It is NEVER ok to pressure someone into consent. When someone says „I do not want sex with x“, then thats an absolute.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> I find it shocking when pressure gets applied for people to consent to sex. The circumstances are irrelevant. It is NEVER ok to pressure someone into consent. When someone says „I do not want sex with x“, then thats an absolute.


That isn't the point of what he said at all...NO ONE is saying that you should have sex with him if you don't find him attractive and really don't want to. 

You spend a considerable amount of time avoiding responding to actual points in many of the comments, and give detailed justifications for very superficial issues that have little to do with anything. 

Either you don't understand what people are trying to ask you to explain, or you are deliberately resisting thinking about and responding to the deeper issues.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> That isn't the point of what he said at all...NO ONE is saying that you should have sex with him if you don't find him attractive and really don't want to.
> 
> You spend a considerable amount of time avoiding responding to actual points in many of the comments, and give detailed justifications for very superficial issues that have little to do with anything.
> 
> Either you don't understand what people are trying to ask you to explain, or you are deliberately resisting thinking about and responding to the deeper issues.


Untrue. The same post called me shallow for not consenting to sex. That IS pressure. As for „no one“, there have been numerous posts saying exactly that my non consent makes me wrong, including the post i called out as abusive above. That IS pressure. I have said exactly that I dont want to sleep with him, and even the why. I dont know what needs adding to that.

The poster who said a few posts above that on this forum „a whole chorus of outrage“ would descend on a man who doesnt wish to sleep with his fat wife shocked me. So a mob pressures the man into sex? I thought in 2021 we dont need to talk about consent. Apparently, we do.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Untrue. I have been called shallow in the same post that you refer to for not consenting to sex. That IS pressure. As for „no one“, there have been numerous posts saying exactly that my non consent makes me wrong, including the post i called out as abusive above. That IS pressure. I have said exactly that I dont want to sleep with him, and even the why. I dont know what needs adding to that.
> 
> The poster who said a few posts above that on this forum „a whole chorus of outrage“ would descend on a man who doesnt wish to sleep with his fat wife shocked me. I thought in 2021 we dont need to talk about consent. Apparently, we do.


You are completely within your rights to refuse sex. I was not talking about consent. What I am saying is your lack of attraction is due to a very shallow reason. You are putting one negative superficial characteristic ahead of all the other characteristics that are much deeper. Furthermore, you are completely unwilling to provide any help to your husband or even discuss it with him. That comes off as a very cold and uncaring attitude. As I said, if this were a short term boyfriend it would be one thing, but this is your husband of many years. A man you say you love and have a great spiritual connection with. You say that you enjoy sex and you talk about how deeply it can affect your soul. You love your husband's intellect, his conversations, he is a good father and provides for your family. Yet, you have lost attraction to the point where you deprive him of a fundamental part of a healthy marriage, physical intimacy. All without even attempting to address it with him. Don't you think that causes him any pain? Have you even bothered to ask him if the fact you no longer desire him causes him pain?

You talk about having deep, inquisitive conversations with all kinds of people, but you won't have a deep discussion with your husband about yours and his desire, attraction, intimacy and what could be a health issue. Why do you think that is?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You are completely within your rights to refuse sex. I was not talking about consent. What I am saying is your lack of attraction is due to a very shallow reason. You are putting one negative superficial characteristic ahead of all the other characteristics that are much deeper. Furthermore, you are completely unwilling to provide any help to your husband or even discuss it with him. That comes off as a very cold and uncaring attitude. As I said, if this were a short term boyfriend it would be one thing, but this is your husband of many years. A man you say you love and have a great spiritual connection with. You say that you enjoy sex and you talk about how deeply it can affect your soul. You love your husband's intellect, his conversations, he is a good father and provides for your family. Yet, you have lost attraction to the point where you deprive him of a fundamental part of a healthy marriage, physical intimacy. All without even attempting to address it with him. Don't you think that causes him any pain? Have you even bothered to ask him if the fact you no longer desire him causes him pain?
> 
> You talk about having deep, inquisitive conversations with all kinds of people, but you won't have a deep discussion with your husband about yours and his desire, attraction, intimacy and what could be a health issue. Why do you think that is?


I dont know what to even say. For sexual attraction, I need physical attraction and psychological attraction. I need both. There is nothing to add here. The „shallow“ comment means you think there is something wrong with me for thinking that way and that I really should sleep with him. And that is pressure no matter how you cut it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I dont know what to even say. For sexual attraction, I need physical attraction and psychological attraction. I need both. There is nothing to add here. The „shallow“ comment means you think there is something wrong with me for thinking that way and that I really should sleep with him. And that is pressure no matter how you cut it.


I am not saying you should sleep with him. I am saying you should want to sleep with him and if not you should be talking to him about it. Marriage is fundamentally an intimate sexual relationship. If there is no intimacy the marriage is no longer a marriage. It is actually a different relationship. I guess you are okay with that relationship, which is entirely your choice.

I don't think you actually want your husband to have and affair, but you did say you would turn a blind eye to an affair, so long as it was an affair of love. Why not try to let him have that affair with you? I mean you are already in love. Why would you not try to make that happen for him, and for you? Is it simply not worth the effort? That is the way it seems you feel based on your description of the situation. I am just struck by all your talk of deep conversations with other people, but you won't discuss this topic with your husband. Why won't you talk to him about it? Weight is completely controllable. It is a problem you could solve together. Instead you mention it once 6 years ago, then its all on him. Why no teamwork and making it about us?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Untrue. The same post called me shallow for not consenting to sex. That IS pressure. As for „no one“, there have been numerous posts saying exactly that my non consent makes me wrong, including the post i called out as abusive above. That IS pressure. I have said exactly that I dont want to sleep with him, and even the why. I dont know what needs adding to that.
> 
> The poster who said a few posts above that on this forum „a whole chorus of outrage“ would descend on a man who doesnt wish to sleep with his fat wife shocked me. So a mob pressures the man into sex? I thought in 2021 we dont need to talk about consent. Apparently, we do.


Maybe it's the language barrier, but I haven't heard a thoughtful response from you about how your spirituality doesn't line up with how superficial you are about attraction. Your attitude is contradictory, and you haven't addressed that.

It IS shallow to base most of your attraction on physical appearance. That's fine if that is what is important to you, but when you turn around and talk about spiritual connection, it's hard to believe you actually put value on that when you are attracted mostly by what you SEE. THAT is what people are pointing out to you, no one is trying to pressure you into having sex with him...they are saying you are contradicting yourself.

People can be physically unattractive, but if they have beautiful spirits and souls, they can be VERY attractive. What if your husband was thin like he used to be, but was in a car accident and his face was disfigured and ugly...would you refuse to have sex with him after that? Or what happens when people age and lose their youth...how loving is a partner who says, you are 60 now and aren't pretty like you were when you were 30, I don't want to have sex with you anymore.
Sure, they are free to do that. But it says something about the person who only cares about the outer appearance, and not the inner person.

You are rejecting your husband based on his appearance. His inner beauty doesn't affect your attraction at all. You are so easily turned off by the shell that houses his wonderful spirit. That doesn't sound like a very spiritually enlightened person, that is all that is being said to you.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> Maybe it's the language barrier, but I haven't heard a thoughtful response from you about how your spirituality doesn't line up with how superficial you are about attraction. Your attitude is contradictory, and you haven't addressed that.
> 
> It IS shallow to base most of your attraction on physical appearance. That's fine if that is what is important to you, but when you turn around and talk about spiritual connection, it's hard to believe you actually put value on that when you are attracted mostly by what you SEE. THAT is what people are pointing out to you, no one is trying to pressure you into having sex with him...they are saying you are contradicting yourself.
> 
> ...


Lisa, lets slow down the conversation here. I said for sex to happen, I need two elements that must come together: (a) physical attraction and (b) mental attraction. Both elements must be there. Both. I will not sleep when one of the two elements is missing. 

How can this be perceived contradictory? Maybe this is a language barrier.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I am not saying you should sleep with him. I am saying you should want to sleep with him and if not you should be talking to him about it. Marriage is fundamentally an intimate sexual relationship. If there is no intimacy the marriage is no longer a marriage. It is actually a different relationship. I guess you are okay with that relationship, which is entirely your choice.
> 
> I don't think you actually want your husband to have and affair, but you did say you would turn a blind eye to an affair, so long as it was an affair of love. Why not try to let him have that affair with you? I mean you are already in love. Why would you not try to make that happen for him, and for you? Is it simply not worth the effort? That is the way it seems you feel based on your description of the situation. I am just struck by all your talk of deep conversations with other people, but you won't discuss this topic with your husband. Why won't you talk to him about it? Weight is completely controllable. It is a problem you could solve together. Instead you mention it once 6 years ago, then its all on him. Why no teamwork and making it about us?


In the end while I am bent towards mind, I am an „action speaks louder than words“ lady. His weight is on the table, its not a secret to him. I dont want to talk with him about it, I want to see a lower weight. I want to see action.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> In the end while I am bent towards mind, I am an „action speaks louder than words“ lady. His weight is on the table, its not a secret to him. I dont want to talk with him about it, I want to see a lower weight. I want to see action.


So you are saying he isn't worth your time and effort. Not worth even mentioning it every so often over the course of 6 years. This is why I say you come off as shallow and cold. 

Through conversation you will dive deeply into the thoughts of other people, but not this with your husband. Why don't you want to talk to him about it? If he lost the weight would you then be attracted to him?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So you are saying he isn't worth your time and effort. Not worth even mentioning it every so often over the course of 6 years. This is why I say you come off as shallow and cold.
> 
> Through conversation you will dive deeply into the thoughts of other people, but not this with your husband. Why don't you want to talk to him about it? If he lost the weight would you then be attracted to him?


I think what she is saying is, her husband thinks it's not worth the time or effort. She was clear in what the problem is. He did nothing at all to correct it. She put the ball in his court and he has done nothing with it.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So you are saying he isn't worth your time and effort. Not worth even mentioning it every so often over the course of 6 years. This is why I say you come off as shallow and cold.
> 
> Through conversation you will dive deeply into the thoughts of other people, but not this with your husband. Why don't you want to talk to him about it? If he lost the weight would you then be attracted to him?


I have no problems with cold, it does not faze me. I am dealing with an adult. He knows weight is the issue for me. Chances are high I‘d gain enough respect with demonstrated self discipline to resume sexual relations when the 20kg get dropped. He is free to keep his weight. I wont apply pressure on him. There is no „you should lose weight“. But I am unattracted to a blob of fat and thats it.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I think what she is saying is, her husband thinks it's not worth the time or effort. She was clear in what the problem is. He did nothing at all to correct it. She put the ball in his court and he has done nothing with it.


Thats correct, I put the ball in his court and he has done nothing with it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Lisa, lets slow down the conversation here. I said for sex to happen, I need two elements that must come together: (a) physical attraction and (b) mental attraction. Both elements must be there. Both. I will not sleep when one of the two elements is missing.
> 
> How can this be perceived contradictory? Maybe this is a language barrier.


The contradiction isn't that you want physical and mental attraction. The contradiction is in some posts you place spirituality, connection, love above all, but you are basing most of your attraction on his physical appearance. You are supposed to the main person that can see your husband true inner beauty, instead you choose to focus on his physical appearance. Any reasonable person would see this a contradictory. 

Similar contradiction here. You will forgive an affair that is based on something deep, love, but you will divorce over an affair based on physical attraction. At the same time you won't have sex with him based solely on his physical appearance.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The contradiction isn't that you want physical and mental attraction. The contradiction is in some posts you place spirituality, connection, love above all, but you are basing most of your attraction on his physical appearance. You are supposed to the main person that can see your husband true inner beauty, instead you choose to focus on his physical appearance. Any reasonable person would see this a contradictory.
> 
> Similar contradiction here. You will forgive an affair that is based on something deep, love, but you will divorce over an affair based on physical attraction. At the same time you won't have sex with him based solely on his physical appearance.


Thats the puzzle. I keep needing to defend myself and thats strange. Where did I say „i place most of my attraction on physical appearance“? I consistently said I need both physical and mental attraction. Its as if I never said that and talked to the air. I call you out on this, in what specific post did I say that I place physical attraction higher than mental attraction? I challenge you, and you cant find that in my posts as I never written that nor believe that. They are equally essential and necessary.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> I think what she is saying is, her husband thinks it's not worth the time or effort. She was clear in what the problem is. He did nothing at all to correct it. She put the ball in his court and he has done nothing with it.


To me that is the same as it isn't worth the effort. Yes it is ultimately his problem, but in marriage one partner's problem is the couple's problem.



Sonja said:


> I have no problems with cold, it does not faze me. I am dealing with an adult. He knows weight is the issue for me. Chances are high I‘d gain enough respect with demonstrated self discipline to resume sexual relations when the 20kg get dropped. He is free to keep his weight. I wont apply pressure on him. There is no „you should lose weight“. But I am unattracted to a blob of fat and thats it.


Your husband is a "blob of fat." I'm not sensing any love in that statement. When he gets type 2 diabetes from being overweight will you still just leave the ball in his court? 

Would you feel the same way if the physical change were something beyond his control, as in example @LisaDiane mentioned?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> To me that is the same as it isn't worth the effort. Yes it is ultimately his problem, but in marriage one partner's problem is the couple's problem.
> 
> 
> Your husband is a "blob of fat." I'm not sensing any love in that statement. When he gets type 2 diabetes from being overweight will you still just leave the ball in his court?
> ...


Yes when he gets Type 2 its still in his court. I treat people as adults. I dont marry a child. 

I do not know how I would feel with a disability beyond control. I would have to be in the situation to know how I feel.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> To me that is the same as it isn't worth the effort. Yes it is ultimately his problem, but in marriage one partner's problem is the couple's problem.
> @LisaDiane mentioned?


It absolutely is the problem of both, always. Now she identified the issue she has. How many HD spouses on here would kill for a straight foreword solution that she gave to her husband? He chose neither to do or say anything about it. This to me is the least puzzling thing when it comes to the op. If it were an issue that had any sort of rank to either of them something would have moved long before 6 years.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Sonja said:


> Thats correct, I put the ball in his court and he has done nothing with it.


This is why I wonder if he isn't attracted to you anymore either. If he was, he probably would try to lose weight.

Maybe he doesn't like how your body looks after having a baby...you can be thin, but there are still changes in how our bodies look (or maybe he notices things you don't, and he doesn't like them on you).

Or maybe you are starting to look older to him and he would rather enjoy eating what he likes and stay "a blob of fat", instead of do anything to earn the "privilege" of having sex with you.

I think if he thought sex with you was worth it, he would lose weight...I think if he doesn't care either, he must only be attracted to your spirit, and not your looks or your body anymore.

And since you are both happy with that, it seems to be working fine for your marriage.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Thats the puzzle. I keep needing to defend myself and thats strange. Where did I say „i place most of my attraction on physical appearance“? I consistently said I need both physical and mental attraction. Its as if I never said that and talked to the air. I call you out on this, in what specific post did I say that I place physical attraction higher than mental attraction? I challenge you, and you cant find that in my posts as I never written that nor believe that. They are equally important.


You never say those actual words, but here are a couple posts that lead me to believe you put more weight on his physical appearance. You have high praise for the light in his soul, his enlightening conversations, his spiritual partnership with you, his intellect, wealth, etc. Yet, you withhold all physical intimacy with him based solely on one physical characteristic. You are actually repulsed by him. He is a "fat blob", "barely a kiss on the lips". That is where the shallow comments come from. 

Post #31
_Love is a word where people mean different things. My definition of love is to sense the light in the soul of another and be attracted to that light. In that sense, I definitely love my husband.
Physically, no, the extra 20kg give him poor body shape and untoned. I feel no attraction, barely a kiss on the lips._
Post #96
_No, the weight gain is it. _
Post #146
_Its like good ice cream. Its better with, but alright without. I feel no urge to leave him, as he is a phanastic spiritual partner. _
Post #425
_I have no problems with cold, it does not faze me. I am dealing with an adult. He knows weight is the issue for me. Chances are high I‘d gain enough respect with demonstrated self discipline to resume sexual relations when the 20kg get dropped. He is free to keep his weight. I wont apply pressure on him. There is no „you should lose weight“. But I am unattracted to a blob of fat and thats it. _

Something I find interesting is that in this whole thread you are expressing a common message seen on TAM: I love you, but I'm not in love with you. That is a common phrase from a spouse that no longer has any physical attraction for their partner. It is often followed up with the revelation that there is someone else they are IN love with. Someone that "completes" them. The other spouse is usually totally blindsided by it, guess why? They had no clue thanks to lacking communication in the marriage.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> It absolutely is the problem of both, always. Now she identified the issue she has. How many HD spouses on here would kill for a straight foreword solution that she gave to her husband? He chose neither to do or say anything about it. This to me is the least puzzling thing when it comes to the op. If it were an issue that had any sort of rank to either of them something would have moved long before 6 years.





LisaDiane said:


> This is why I wonder if he isn't attracted to you anymore either. If he was, he probably would try to lose weight.
> 
> Maybe he doesn't like how your body looks after having a baby...you can be thin, but there are still changes in how our bodies look (or maybe he notices things you don't, and he doesn't like them on you).
> 
> ...


I agree with both of these posts.

He obviously doesn't care about no sex enough to lose the weight and she doesn't care enough to support him in changing. Maybe even on some level she doesn't want him to change so sex stays off the table. 

I guess this is a winning marriage. We hear all kinds of complaints from spouses with differing sex drives. Maybe this is just two people that have no care about sex and it is a perfect match, so just roll with it.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> This is why I wonder if he isn't attracted to you anymore either. If he was, he probably would try to lose weight.
> 
> Maybe he doesn't like how your body looks after having a baby...you can be thin, but there are still changes in how our bodies look (or maybe he notices things you don't, and he doesn't like them on you).
> 
> ...


That is good comment and true. I am fine with continuing this as is and he gives no indication to the contrary. Maybe he finds me unattractive for his own reasons and I am fine with that.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I think OP is low drive. I also suspect when they were having sex, it was so rare that her husband doesn’t feel like he’s missing out on much.
They very well may be both low drive.
For the record, it does bother me that OP has no attraction to her husband although she says she’s attracted to his other qualities. As someone pointed out, what about when he’s old and ugly? I don’t think someone a person truly loves is ever too ugly to have sex with. Even in old age, a person sees their spouse through rcolored glasses as I did my ex wife when she was badly overweight (226 lbs according to her)and I didn’t mind because I loved her. and who’d notice anyway with the lights off?
So I can’t grasp why the OP doesn’t WANT to have sex with her husband she says she loves, not that she doesn’t or think that I think she should. 

where’s the love googles OP? Where’d they go?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You never say those actual words, but here are a couple posts that lead me to believe you put more weight on his physical appearance. You have high praise for the light in his soul, his enlightening conversations, his spiritual partnership with you, his intellect, wealth, etc. Yet, you withhold all physical intimacy with him based solely on one physical characteristic. You are actually repulsed by him. He is a "fat blob", "barely a kiss on the lips". That is where the shallow comments come from.
> 
> Post #31
> _Love is a word where people mean different things. My definition of love is to sense the light in the soul of another and be attracted to that light. In that sense, I definitely love my husband.
> ...


Yes i am repulsed physically. That therefore I value the physical higher than the mental is a logical fallacy. I wont discuss love as its a poorly defined term.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> I think OP is low drive. I also suspect when they were having sex, it was so rare that her husband doesn’t feel like he’s missing out on much.
> They very well may be both low drive.
> For the record, it does bother me that OP has no attraction to her husband although she says she’s attracted to his other qualities. As someone pointed out, what about when he’s old and ugly? I don’t think someone a person truly loves is ever too ugly to have sex with. Even in old age, a person sees their spouse through rcolored glasses as I did my ex wife when she was badly overweight (226 lbs according to her)and I didn’t mind because I loved her. and who’d notice anyway with the lights off?
> So I can’t grasp why the OP doesn’t WANT to have sex with her husband she says she loves, not that she doesn’t or think that I think she should.
> ...


You cant grasp my outlook. Thats alright. That makes us different people. You are more courteous about it then in some previous posts, which is duly noted and appreciated. The „what ifs“ are meaningless. I dont know how I would feel in that situation. Again, love is a fruitless topic as its one of those magic words where people mean different things by it.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sonja said:


> You cant grasp my outlook. Thats alright. That makes us different people. You are more courteous about it then in some previous posts, which is duly noted and appreciated. The „what ifs“ are meaningless. I dont know how I would feel in that situation. Again, love is a fruitless topic as its one of those magic words where people mean different things by it.


You haven’t been anything but courteous in your posts and my apologies for the aggressive or hurtful tone. You’re right, I have nothing to offer because I just don’t understand your mindset toward your husband. I wish you the best in your marriage. It’s your life and your husband. He’s happy enough or he’d be gone.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Have you always felt this way? When you got married did you think there was any chance that 5-10 years down the road you would call off all sex and open your marriage?


This. What did you think would happen as you hit your 40s, 50s, and beyond when appearance inevitably declines?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DTO said:


> This. What did you think would happen as you hit your 40s, 50s, and beyond when appearance inevitably declines?


I dont know what happens until I get there. I have no way of knowing my feelings in „what if scenarios“. Those are meaningless.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I dont know what happens until I get there. I have no way of knowing my feelings in „what if scenarios“. Those are meaningless.


Ok.

Said more directly, you didn't marry with the intent to continue to meet his needs and honor your relationship. It's all about how you feel.

I think you're getting a ton of pushback because most of us can't conceive of marrying someone for which we did not feel that level of commitment.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I dont know what happens until I get there. I have no way of knowing my feelings in „what if scenarios“. Those are meaningless.


Well, not true that.


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

Sonja said:


> I dont know what happens until I get there. I have no way of knowing my feelings in „what if scenarios“. Those are meaningless.


Why don't you just say; feelings are meaningless and will change anyways. Then you can start looking at the world in more clearity.

You have mentioned your spiritual journey in several posts. On a spitirual note, let me say; seek wisdom.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Sonja said:


> Lisa, lets slow down the conversation here. I said for sex to happen, I need two elements that must come together: (a) physical attraction and (b) mental attraction. Both elements must be there. Both. I will not sleep when one of the two elements is missing.
> 
> How can this be perceived contradictory? Maybe this is a language barrier.


Which is completely normal and healthy.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DTO said:


> Ok.
> 
> Said more directly, you didn't marry with the intent to continue to meet his needs and honor your relationship. It's all about how you feel.
> 
> I think you're getting a ton of pushback because most of us can't conceive of marrying someone for which we did not feel that level of commitment.


Correct. I did not marry to meet soneone‘s needs. Nor do I expect someone to meet needs with me. I married for love by my definition, for partnership and for raising a family. I give freely and dont expect him to do otherwise. That was clear understanding when we married.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Which is completely normal and healthy.


Thank you.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

DTO said:


> Ok.
> 
> Said more directly, you didn't marry with the intent to continue to meet his needs and honor your relationship. It's all about how you feel.
> 
> I think you're getting a ton of pushback because most of us can't conceive of marrying someone for which we did not feel that level of commitment.


Meet his needs? First she needs to look after her own needs. "Meet his needs" is a pretty soft phrase for what you're suggesting, which is agreeing to be subserviant sexually, which is letting your own needs take a second position to his. And anyway, sounds to me like they are both doing just fine and happy, so maybe he's not as needy, obsessed, and entitled as some men are. There's no honor in letting yourself be subjugated like that. And there's certainly no honor for the one demanding that.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

leftfield said:


> Why don't you just say; feelings are meaningless and will change anyways. Then you can start looking at the world in more clearity.
> 
> You have mentioned your spiritual journey in several posts. On a spitirual note, let me say; seek wisdom.


I dont say that because it does not reflect my reality. And when I say what-ifs are meaningless to me because I have no idea how I feel about a situation until I am in it, it means exactly that. 

This puts no limitation on you. You know how you will feel with what-ifs, I dont. Thats all.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Meet his needs? First she needs to look after her own needs. "Meet his needs" is a pretty soft phrase for what you're suggesting, which is agreeing to be subserviant sexually, which is letting your own needs take a second position to his. And anyway, sounds to me like they are both doing just fine and happy, so maybe he's not as needy, obsessed, and entitled as some men are. There's no honor in letting yourself be subjugated like that. And there's certainly no honor for the one demanding that.


Thank you again.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Correct. I did not marry to meet soneone‘s needs. Nor do I expect someone to meet needs with me. I married for love *by my definition*, for partnership and for raising a family. I give freely and dont expect him to do otherwise. *That was clear understanding when we married.*


In the end this is all that matters. Weather others understand or not.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> Yes i am repulsed physically. That therefore I value the physical higher than the mental is a logical fallacy. I wont discuss love as its a poorly defined term.


Most people in happy long term marriages will overlook changes in appearance as our partners age. I am so surprised that someone that is clearly into people's spirituality and other deep qualities of a person is unable to look deeper than physical appearance.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> *Most people in happy long term marriages will overlook changes in appearance as our partners age*. I am so surprised that someone that is clearly into people's spirituality and other deep qualities of a person is unable to look deeper than physical appearance.


I will say, if OP was male the support base for her would look very different. Anyone who thinks I am speaking of them I probably am.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Most people in happy long term marriages will overlook changes in appearance as our partners age. I am so surprised that someone that is clearly into people's spirituality and other deep qualities of a person is unable to look deeper than physical appearance.


The irony is that I am more physical than a lot of commentators here, even though I have a strong mental bend. When my body is repulsed, that settles it. Its like cherry ice cream. I lick it with my mouth and either my body takes pleasure or not. And that settles it. I dont take my mind to tell my body it „should“ like the ice cream when in truth it doesnt, neither does my mind tell my body to find a man’s body attractive when it finds it in truth repulsive. I definitely stay true to myself and dont pretend to have attraction thats not there.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I apologize if I missed this being covered, but have you considered divorcing your husband? You find your husband's body "repulsive." Have you ever considered finding someone you would consider physically attractive?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> I apologize if I missed this being covered, but have you considered divorcing your husband? You find your husband's body "repulsive." Have you ever considered finding someone you would consider physically attractive?


The missing sexuality is not something I must have, and thus not a divorce ground. Furthermore, its much easier to destroy than to build. I keep onto the good things in my life and my husband is a good thing.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I keep onto the good things in my life and my husband is a good thing.


What are the things you consider good about your husband? Does your husband mind being in a sexless marriage, or is he okay with it?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> What are the things you consider good about your husband? Does your husband mind being in a sexless marriage, or is he okay with it?


Posts #383-6.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Posts #383-6.


You should just keep this on a macro


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Sonja said:


> Posts #383-6.


Okay, so I read those posts. They were mostly about you philosophizing. But I'm asking a concise question here. I don't feel like wading through a novel regarding philosophies on marriage, sex, procreation, or the meaning of life.

What, specifically, do you find attractive about your husband right now? After all, you claim you aren't going to look at future circumstances. You are living in the present. So what is it, right at this moment, that you really like about your husband? The job he has? His voice? His ability to sing well? I mean, c'mon ... I'd just like concrete examples of what you like about who he is. Seriously.


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

Sonja said:


> I have no problems with cold, it does not faze me. I am dealing with an adult. He knows weight is the issue for me. Chances are high I‘d gain enough respect with demonstrated self discipline to resume sexual relations when the 20kg get dropped. He is free to keep his weight. I wont apply pressure on him. There is no „you should lose weight“. But I am unattracted to a blob of fat and thats it.


I think saying to your husband "you should lose some weight, I might have sex with you more often" with a wink as you walk out of the room would be wonderful and inspiring, not childish due to redundancy etc.

You often imply that your approach to most topics is basically , "I've said it once, in one particular way, there's no need to repeat myself, state it in a different way, or convey other perspectives on this, it's immature." I think I would disagree with that completely; we all need that attention from the people who care for us deeply.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Quad73 said:


> I think saying to your husband "you should lose some weight, I might have sex with you more often" with a wink as you walk out of the room would be wonderful and inspiring, not childish due to redundancy etc.
> 
> You often imply that your approach to most topics is basically , "I've said it once, in one particular way, there's no need to repeat myself, state it in a different way, or convey other perspectives on this, it's immature." I think I would disagree with that completely; *we all need that attention from the people who care for us deeply.*


Maybe if he felt this way he could bring it up a single time in 6 years? Not everyone is the same.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Okay, so I read those posts. They were mostly about you philosophizing. But I'm asking a concise question here. I don't feel like wading through a novel regarding philosophies on marriage, sex, procreation, or the meaning of life.
> 
> What, specifically, do you find attractive about your husband right now? After all, you claim you aren't going to look at future circumstances. You are living in the present. So what is it, right at this moment, that you really like about your husband? The job he has? His voice? His ability to sing well? I mean, c'mon ... I'd just like concrete examples of what you like about who he is. Seriously.


I specifically like about my husband that he is one of the exceptionaliy few people who by their sheer manner of how they interact with me, hold a mirror to my face. He makes me strive to continually become a bigger person.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Sonja said:


> He makes me strive to continually become a bigger person.


He became bigger as well (+20kg).

🥁


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

ccpowerslave said:


> He became bigger as well (+20kg).
> 
> 🥁


My 9 year relation has been transformative and I am grateful to him for that. I finally settled my difficult childhood issue with my parents with internal resolution. This feels truly liberating and happened through his presence.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Thank you for answering my question. So, from what I'm reading, you have respect for your husband. He has helped you through the personal challenges you've faced. 

Just so I'm sure on this ... he's okay with a sexless marriage, too, right? 

If so, then I say good for you. Hey, whatever makes both of you happy is fine by me. Most couples want to connect with sex, but if that's not what either of you want, I say go for it!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Sonja said:


> The irony is that I am more physical than a lot of commentators here, even though I have a strong mental bend. When my body is repulsed, that settles it. Its like cherry ice cream. I lick it with my mouth and either my body takes pleasure or not. And that settles it. I dont take my mind to tell my body it „should“ like the ice cream when in truth it doesnt, neither does my mind tell my body to find a man’s body attractive when it finds it in truth repulsive. I definitely stay true to myself and dont pretend to have attraction thats not there.


Remember, tastes change over time, so you may want to sample occasionally.

Seriously though, I hope you have a happy, healthy and fulfilling life and marriage. Although I would never want to live a life without any intimate, physical contact with the person I am in love with, it is working for you and your husband. I wish you the best.

I would encourage you to talk to you husband about his weight again. Not for the purpose of him regaining your sexual attraction. Do it simply for him and your child. Obesity leads to all kinds of health issues and I assume you agree that your child deserves to grow up with a healthy father. He is also a role model to your child, so you have a vested interest in him providing a positive example. And who knows, maybe it would rekindle some desire in you.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Thank you for answering my question. So, from what I'm reading, you have respect for your husband. He has helped you through the personal challenges you've faced.
> 
> Just so I'm sure on this ... he's okay with a sexless marriage, too, right?
> 
> If so, then I say good for you. Hey, whatever makes both of you happy is fine by me. Most couples want to connect with sex, but if that's not what either of you want, I say go for it!


Just to be sure, I am not asking for advice. I just share from my marriage as it helps me organise my thoughts. He hasnt said the past 6 years he isnt ok with it. I am ok with it. But there are 400+ posts on the topic and I wont go into it again.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Remember, tastes change over time, so you may want to sample occasionally.
> 
> Seriously though, I hope you have a happy, healthy and fulfilling life and marriage. Although I would never want to live a life without any intimate, physical contact with the person I am in love with, it is working for you and your husband. I wish you the best.
> 
> I would encourage you to talk to you husband about his weight again. Not for the purpose of him regaining your sexual attraction. Do it simply for him and your child. Obesity leads to all kinds of health issues and I assume you agree that your child deserves to grow up with a healthy father. He is also a role model to your child, so you have a vested interest in him providing a positive example. And who knows, maybe it would rekindle some desire in you.


Thank you for your contributions.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Sonja said:


> I am not asking for advice


Nor am I giving it. I asked you a question. I requested a straightforward answer. That is all.



Sonja said:


> He hasnt said the past 6 years he isnt ok with it. I am ok with it. But there are 400+ posts on the topic and I wont go into it again.


I didn't ask if you were okay with it. I asked if he was okay with it. I am not interested in the post-count on this thread. I am asking direct questions. I would appreciate direct answers. That is all.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Nor am I giving it. I asked you a question. I requested a straightforward answer. That is all.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't ask if you were okay with it. I asked if he was okay with it. I am not interested in the post-count on this thread. I am asking direct questions. I would appreciate direct answers. That is all.


I do not know if he is. And I wont bring it up with him.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

So you aren't interested in whether or not your husband is sexually frustrated. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But that is not of interest to you.

Does your husband love you? Do you love your husband? Or do you feel that you serve a good purpose for him and he serves a good purpose for you? In other words, sex is off the table, you don't know if he's okay with that, but you both are deriving sustenance from this relationship.

What sustenance do you think he derives from you?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> So you aren't interested in whether or not your husband is sexually frustrated. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But that is not of interest to you.
> 
> Does your husband love you? Do you love your husband? Or do you feel that you serve a good purpose for him and he serves a good purpose for you? In other words, sex is off the table, you don't know if he's okay with that, but you both are deriving sustenance from this relationship.
> 
> What sustenance do you think he derives from you?


Love is a dangerous word as everyone has her/his own definition of what the word means. I love my husband by my definition, yes. I also feel loved. 

His sustenance from me is my listening and soul level conversation. I am very good at that. He explores himself through me. I am not irreplacable but he values me greatly and I am certain he wont leave me.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

A wise philosopher once asked, “What’s love got to do, got to do with it? What’s love but a second hand emotion?” Let us all ponder…


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

ccpowerslave said:


> A wise philosopher once asked, “What’s love got to do, got to do with it? What’s love but a second hand emotion?” Let us all ponder…


Thanks, I just spit my water out onto my keyboard.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Well, this was an interesting discourse I guess. People want to live in a sexless marriage, fine by me. There's all sorts of goofy stuff that goes on in the world.

The thing is, this is a marriage forum. Most folks subscribe to the notion that sex is an important part of marriage. Apparently, OP does not. To each his (or her) own.

Okay. I'm bored with this line of thought. I'm getting sleepy. Time for bed.

Best of luck with your version of marriage, OP.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Prodigal said:


> Well, this was an interesting discourse I guess. People want to live in a sexless marriage, fine by me. There's all sorts of goofy stuff that goes on in the world.
> 
> The thing is, this is a marriage forum. Most folks subscribe to the notion that sex is an important part of marriage. Apparently, OP does not. To each his (or her) own.
> 
> ...


I'm kind of seeing this topic being kept going in circles, for whatever reason real or imaginary. 

I'm letting this one go, dropping in in the unknown if real bin.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Prodigal said:


> Well, this was an interesting discourse I guess. People want to live in a sexless marriage, fine by me. There's all sorts of goofy stuff that goes on in the world.
> 
> The thing is, this is a marriage forum. Most folks subscribe to the notion that sex is an important part of marriage. Apparently, OP does not. To each his (or her) own.
> 
> ...


Thank you.


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I'm kind of seeing this topic being kept going in circles, for whatever reason real or imaginary.
> 
> I'm letting this one go, dropping in in the unknown if real bin.


I answer questions. Thats all.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> This is why I wonder if he isn't attracted to you anymore either. If he was, he probably would try to lose weight.


Or maybe - reversing the female stereotype - he prefers chocolate to sex...


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## Quad73 (May 10, 2021)

uphillbattle said:


> Maybe if he felt this way he could bring it up a single time in 6 years? Not everyone is the same.


I wasn't referring to sexual attention, I was referring to her conversational attention to his (and their relationship's) well being beyond 'I told you once, and that should be enough - moving on'


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Silence is golden


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

_bump_



Sonja said:


> That is one way to see it, yes. Another way to see it is full soul engagement, its a spiritual union. But I will seriously not take this further in this thread.


And how do you imagine people maintain — or even establish — “full soul engagements” or “spiritual unions” with their spouses?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

GusPolinski said:


> _bump_
> 
> 
> 
> And how do you imagine people maintain — or even establish — “full soul engagements” or “spiritual unions” with their spouses?


I can only speak for myself. It started with a desire to truly penetrate the soul of my husband with observation and deepening questions. What are his concerns, hopes, expectations, assumptions, priorities, beliefs, fears, values. 

Love is a dangerous word and it means different things to people. My best definition is love happens when i intuit the light in the soul of my husband. The light in his soul shines brightly.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Sonja said:


> I can only speak for myself. It started with a desire to truly penetrate the soul of my husband with observation and deepening questions. What are his concerns, hopes, expectations, assumptions, priorities, beliefs, fears, values.
> 
> Love is a dangerous word and it means different things to people. My best definition is love happens when i intuit the light in the soul of my husband. The light in his soul shines brightly.


How do you think you’d react if you found out that your husband was having sex with someone else?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

GusPolinski said:


> How do you think you’d react if you found out that your husband was having sex with someone else?


I do not know. I find those hypotheticals not meaningful. I understand there are those who know how they will feel in what-ifs, I am not one of those.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Sonja said:


> I do not know. I find those hypotheticals not meaningful. I understand there are those who know how they will feel in what-ifs, I am not one of those.


So what was your goal in starting this thread?


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## Sonja (Sep 13, 2021)

GusPolinski said:


> So what was your goal in starting this thread?


I did answer that. I am curious what motivates people in their lives, what truly makes them tick. In turn, I freely share my perspective. I am here for sharing, not advice, neither giving nor receiving. I mostly read threads and occasionally comment if I feel it adds unique value of something yet unsaid.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Sonja said:


> I did answer that. I am curious what motivates people in their lives, what truly makes them tick. In turn, I freely share my perspective. I am here for sharing, not advice, neither giving nor receiving. I mostly read threads and occasionally comment if I feel it adds unique value of something yet unsaid.


To have a thread that's been going in circles....


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