# Is watching porn a form of infidelity?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

When I first started to struggle to understand myself and my wife's views on this matter I found an odd forum thread on Oprah's website were there was a heated debate about this topic (well over a decade ago). It was endless post after post about varying views as people handle shame and pain related to this topic in very different ways. 

It was reading through all these posts that I learned that "lying about porn" to your spouse is way worse than just directly dealing with your spouse's conflicting views on the topic as it undermines trust and communication in a marriage. 

I have also read enough on this topic to know that couples that have no issues with porn that may even enjoy watching it together, can evolve to a point to where it becomes a serious problem. An example might be where one spouse gradually refuses to watch it together anymore and later prefers to only watch it alone. In this case it is not hidden, but more of a gesture that one of the two really just wants to be alone and is choosing to actively starve their partner of intimacy. Almost everyone can easily see that yes that is a problem and that porn is being used as a form of infidelity, but I am mostly using this case to illustrate how such a view is not always tied to a religious stance on the topic.

I know not everyone will agree, but as we debate and help others with their struggles as it relates to this topic, it may be helpful to know where TAM stands regarding this topic. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

In our relationship - no it isn't cheating. But it is a no no for my husband because in the past he let it lead to activities that ARE cheating. So it's not cheating to look at just porn (ie pictures/videos), but it is an activity that he doesn't allow himself because of what he's done in the past with it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I believe it is a form of betrayal if it hurts your spouse. Anything that comes before your spouse will come between you. According to Dr. Harley at Marriage Builders, it is a form of independent behavior, doing something that might hurt your spouse without taking their feelings into consideration.

But if two consenting adults in a LTR and marriage are both totally fine with it, and are open and honest about it...that's a different situation. It's not one I'd choose though.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Not infidelity but anyone that had read my posts knows how I feel about it.

I don't believe in hiring prostitutes to stimulate you by watching them have sex.

It is quite a different animal, watching images on a viewing screen and having physical sexual relations with people outside your marriage.

I have heard "church ladies/people" claim watching porn is as bad or the same as infidelity. Complete bull****!


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Even at the height of me really, really hating porn I never considered it cheating - in fact I had only seen it described as such when I came to TAM.

The lying hurt quite a bit and it made me question everything he said to me as he was able to lie so well (he also lied to me about lots of things unconnected to porn - so there were already issues there). But even then I understood WHY he lied and was self aware enough to understand I was contributing to the deceit.

The biggest and most damaging aspect of porn was when he chose IT over me. For instance he would sometimes stay at home whilst I went out with friends/family so he could use it (when I wanted him to be with me). He would pretend to be ill so he could 'sleep' in the spare room. When he did sleep next to me he would wake up early to use porn when I would have liked to be intimate. 

NOW I know there were reasons for all this and we have worked through our issues and reconnected - but at the time it didn't feel like infidelity, but most certainly a betrayal of sorts - like he wasn't part of the team - he was just out to please himself. It was difficult to take when I had my second child and completely lost my figure, he no longer wanted to bathe with me or be intimate like he used to. I felt replaced by better things.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*If it is a temptation to cheating, then it does not need to be happening!*


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Neither my wife nor I have any problem with it. But neither of us have much interest in what seems to be called porn these days, either.

We enjoy erotic literature more. Stories. My wife entertains herself quite often. It takes nothing from me. Whenever I get home from work she is certainly always fun.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

It is not using porn that is a problem. It is hiding the porn use. Perfectly OK to use porn if your spouse knows and approves. Not so good to use porn if you know your spouse would disapprove.

I can understand using it if your spouse does not make themselves available sexually. But in most cases it is better to divorce than to continue using porn over your spouse's objection as a way to cope with a sexless marriage.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have no objection to porn if it does not interfere with a couples sex life. In particular no one should ever choose porn instead of their partner (assuming that partner behaves reasonably in bed of course).

I have no patience with people frequently turn their partners down for sex, then object to their partners watching porn.


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

I answered no. Both my gf and I watch it together or separately, particularly if we are trying to find tutorials for certain acts we want to do correctly (kink) or one or the other of us is looking for a hot new scene to try. It doesn't take away from our sex together. In the cases where it does, porn can become an issue.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

If your advoiding sex with your partner and using porn then in my book its cheating. Or a least then next worse thing.

And by using porn I mean tickling the kitty or choking the chicken while watching.


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Yes it is.

And it is voyeurism.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

It's no more cheating than watching Daniel Craig walk down the beach in his swim trunks. 
It's no more cheating than watching any R rated movie in which two characters are having sex.

We, thankfully, do not live in a society that blames sexual misconduct on anyone other than the person misbehaving. If your husband has a porn problem, it's not porn, it's your husband. Your husband has an intimacy problem. Sex creates intimacy but porn allows a sexual outlet bypassing intimacy. That's not porn's fault. 

It would be wise for an alcoholic to avoid bars at all costs. The alcoholic doesn't blame the booze. It would be wise for someone with intimacy problems to avoid porn, but don't blame porn.


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## RideofmyLife (Dec 18, 2015)

My poor brother got caught masturbating to a Victoria's secret catalog. Both his wife and mother in law walked in on him. His wife accused him of cheating on her.  Can't believe he's still with her. 

My husband occasionally uses porn when we haven't had sex for a couple days. I have no problems with it as it doesn't impact our sex life at all.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Isn't cheating in my world but rarely looked at these days by either of us. We have a lot of sex and intimacy, if this changed and he chose porn over us then I would blame him not the porn.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

No, watching porn is not infidelity . I will say it becomes a problem if watching it interferes with your sex life with your partner/spouse in any manner.

That said, I cannot watch commercial porn without laughing or at least making fun of what is going on in the film, so for me it is not at all arousing. There are films that are not considered porn that are very arousing for me … “9 1/2 Weeks” is an example. However porn is just really badly made to the point of being silly.

My biggest problem with porn is that I see evidence of men (and perhaps women too?) who seem to think that porn is "real sex" and carry that belief or expectation into real life sexual relationships. :slap:


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Red Sonja said:


> My biggest problem with porn is that I see evidence of men (and perhaps women too?) who seem to think that porn is "real sex" and carry that belief or expectation into real life sexual relationships. :slap:


Yes, that is a problem. I've seen quite a few posts by people who seem to think sex acts they see in porn may have some relationship to reality. That is a problem.


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## hifromme67 (Oct 30, 2016)

For Catholics (like myself) it absolutely is. Porn is not only infidelity, it is a sin and destructive to a marriage. Badsanta, you know my thoughts on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I have no objection to porn if it does not interfere with a couples sex life. In particular no one should ever choose porn instead of their partner *(assuming that partner behaves reasonably in bed of course).*


This statement kept me awake last night! :smile2:

Although I agree, it can become a philosophical question as to what is unreasonable, I know my husband's expectations of me became increasingly unreasonable as he got deeper into porn. Here are some reasons he gave to me for turning to porn and away from me:

# I couldn't orgasm quick enough (therefore I wasn't very sexual)
# I never had noisy sex (therefore never enjoyed it)
# When I did orgasm I didn't like being touched - skin too sensitive (therefore I didn't like orgasms)
# I wanted extended foreplay (therefore I am probably not attracted to him)
# I needed to drink to have sex (ditto above)

From my point of view

# He came too quickly and then rolled over to sleep (I would finish off in the bathroom)
# I didn't know sex was supposed to be noisy until I watched porn. 
# Being sensitive after an orgasm seemed normal to me
# I wanted extended foreplay because I was bored with the sex we were having which was generally geared towards his needs
# I drank because I was sad and probably moderately depressed 

A selection of vibrators sorted the orgasm issue along with talking to each other rather than making assumptions. 

Porn shaped his expectations of me because he thought all women should be having multiple, very noisy orgasms, very quickly (most porn is geared to get men aroused and finished quickly). Porn doesn't show post coital affection (so he turned and went to sleep). He began to resent time in foreplay because in porn that tends to be over and straight to penetration. Porn doesn't tend to have people communicating on a real level (just dirty talk) so he didn't ask me whether I liked something - he just did it, ejaculated quickly and fell asleep. 

My responsibility fell short because I didn't speak up, because I was scapegoating the porn and knew he would never stop when I asked, I stopped initiating, he moved into the spare room. It wasn't until I explored porn that things started to make sense and I was able to talk to him about it in a more intelligent way than just getting angry. He's not interested in porn anymore and the last time we watched it together he shut the lid 5 mins in because he wanted to concentrate on me :smile2:. so we got there in the end!

It *never* felt like infidelity but it felt like Mr peacem had left the building, gone to pornland, was having a great time whilst I was left feeling very neglected, lonely and resentful. Like I didn't recognise him. A betrayal of sorts.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Its cheating mentally. For both of us its a no no. I wouldn't marry a man who thought that looking at porn was ok, I am so grateful to have a husband who goes against the flow. I would never treat my husband in that way, in such an unloving and disrespectful manner. We both feel that the only naked bodies we should see are each other, and we value our marriage enough to keep to that. 
Faithfulness is more than actual physical sex.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> Not infidelity but anyone that had read my posts knows how I feel about it.
> 
> I don't believe in hiring prostitutes to stimulate you by watching them have sex.
> 
> ...


 I talked to a lady some time ago who had a husband who had looked at porn for years. She had been deeply hurt by it and said that for her it was far worse that if he had physically cheated with one women. She felt she was having to compete with thousands of women and not just one, and I can see her point completely. I have no idea why she put up with it, I wouldn't.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

If you are not hiding from your SO, they are ok with it, and it does not interfere with your sex life, I do not view it as infidelity. Honestly, no matter what I don't consider it "infidelity". There are a whole bunch of other issues if it is being used to replace your SO or your SO has a problem with. 

How about the person who uses porn b/c their SO denies them sex, is that considered infidelity?

How about the person who masturbates, and maybe images that are not of their SO pop into their head, is that infidelity?

How about the person who gets turned on watching a sex scene in an R rated movie, is that infidelity?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Is it infidelity? Only if one or both people in the marriage believe it is.

People who swing or have open marriages don't believe it's infidelity, for example.

There's no black and white with this, or right and wrong - only to the individual do those things exist, or not exist.

All anybody has to do is respect their partners point of view on matters such as this. My ex wife did not want me watching porn AT ALL. She never specifically said why (ie. it's cheating/infidelity) but I suspect that was it. She simply did not want me seeing other naked women and masturbating to it. So, I didn't for a long, long time. At whatever point it was she started loosening her own boundaries (flirting, EA's, etc.), so did I, and that included occasional porn use. As long as the respect goes both ways, everybody's happy.

My current wife has no issue with porn, that I know of. She's not into it herself, and we did try watching together once a long time ago. Did nothing for her. What we watched was also ridiculous and badly acted, so we had a good laugh for a few minutes before she got bored. We've never tried watching 'better' porn together, or amateur, "real" stuff, but I don't get the impression it would get her excited. But I actually don't know that. Maybe one of these days I'll suggest it, but I strongly suspect she would have no interest.


TLDR - it's infidelity if you think it's infidelity. It's not if you don't.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

alexm said:


> People who swing or have open marriages don't believe it's infidelity, for example.


 @alexm I would argue that people that swing or have open marriages are practicing infidelity in the eyes of the law. So from society's point of view it would cause some serious legal conflicts if one had to address and defend that lifestyle in a court of law. For that reason I would define swinging or an open marriage as infidelity.

Now when it comes to porn, legally speaking that is NOT considered infidelity and could easily be defended in a court of law as exercising one's right to free speech. So if a married couple that was swinging or in an open marriage was doing so for the sole purpose of producing porn, then in the eyes of the law it could then be protected as free speech as well as long as the intent is to publish it. 

I find that so ironic ethically. It is as if justice becomes blind to infidelity as long as everyone gets to enjoy watching.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Infidelity is a violation of a couple's assumed or stated contract regarding emotional and/or sexual exclusivity. If they've agreed to revise their contract, there is no infidelity because there is no violation. Legally, there is almost no enforcement of existing laws, largely because free speech, freedom of association, etc., normally take precedence. Courts have established that consenting adults are free to do as they wish in the bedroom, so any such laws that restrict this are normally unenforceable.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There do seem to be a lot of people (mostly men) who don't realize that porn is fantasy, that it is no more a realistic representation of sex than a James Bond movie is of espionage. This is probably an increasing problem as porn is so available on the internet that it is "teaching" young people about sex - and teaching them completely incorrectly.

One problem with sexuality is that it is so private that there is no good source of information for most people. No indication of what is "normal". Also, there may be no "normal", peoples sexual interests are so widely varied. 

Some people (again mostly men) watch porn and think that sex is 30 seconds of oral followed by 5 minutes of pounding with the woman having constant screaming orgasms before the guy pops on their face. Other people think oral sex is a perverted thing that "normal" people would never do and that women tolerate sex as a way to reward their husbands. 

I very glad you and your husband did finally work things out in a way that works for both of you.

Oddly in my case its my wife who wants things to be very fast (hmm, wonder if she watches porn in secret). She gets bored if what I'm doing doesn't lead to a fast O for her and wants me to get out the vibrator to speed things up (as if the only point of sex is to get an O). 




peacem said:


> This statement kept me awake last night! :smile2:
> 
> Although I agree, it can become a philosophical question as to what is unreasonable, I know my husband's expectations of me became increasingly unreasonable as he got deeper into porn. Here are some reasons he gave to me for turning to porn and away from me:
> 
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> If you are not hiding from your SO, they are ok with it, and it does not interfere with your sex life, I do not view it as infidelity. Honestly, no matter what I don't consider it "infidelity". There are a whole bunch of other issues if it is being used to replace your SO or your SO has a problem with.
> 
> How about the person who uses porn b/c their SO denies them sex, is that considered infidelity?
> 
> ...


I can only answer for us, but I would't look at porn even if for whatever reason we could't have sex. To us there is no excuse, its wrong and damaging. We also avoid films or programmes with sex scenes in them. My husband is even stricter than me about things like that. If I am watching something and a scene of a sexual nature comes on unexpectedly I will wizz the programme forward.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexm said:


> Is it infidelity? Only if one or both people in the marriage believe it is.
> 
> People who swing or have open marriages don't believe it's infidelity, for example.
> 
> ...


What people with an open marriage do is still adultery whatever they call it.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I don't think it's necessarily a form of infidelity but it may cause infidelity or other problems in a marriage.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> What people with an open marriage do is still adultery whatever they call it.


Sure, it's adultery. I love adultery! Nothing at all wrong with it, if it's consensual. All adultery is, is having sex with someone who is not your spouse. The definition neither makes nor implies a value judgment. Infidelity is the term that implies a value judgment, because it requires a violation of an agreement.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

James Bond movies are a better representation of espionage than porn is of sex.

But not all porn is what is what people today seem to call porn. My wife and I find porn that is much more realistic. It's probably very boring to most people. But even that is still not like our sex. We take forever.

I asked a female director once why all the scenes are in the 6 to 8 minute range. She said something about that's all the audience wants. Everything is geared to the lowest common denominator, of course. So we set up play lists of a dozen scenes to play in the background as ambiance. 

My wife has never been noisy during sex. It turns her on to listen to others, but she is very quiet. 

Back in the seventies when we first went to an X-rated movie she had a giggling fit because of a girls' so ridiculous sounds (and we left the theater). Ever since then any time my wife goes, "Ooh, Ooh, Aah, Aah!" I know she is making fun of a movie. R-rated, X-rated, doesn't matter, she is going to end up giggling and making me laugh.

The problem of pornographic films being such extremely bad portrayals of sex is a real problem for society, though, in our opinion. It is truly unfortunate people make so little effort to educate themselves regarding how much more wonderful real sex can be. My wife wishes all young men would be forced to learn to be great lovers, so young women could all be blessed with a great love life. All I can do is shake my head.


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## Dr. Stupid (Dec 8, 2016)

To each their own. It's infidelity if the ground rules of your relationship prohibit it. It has nothing to do with prudish, intolerant, "church ladies" or conversely, those who like watching people hump each other like beasts. It has to do with agreements and established boundaries, or lack thereof. 

Watching porn has psychological consequences regardless. If a committed couple has no issues with that, then that's their own business.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> What people with an open marriage do is still adultery whatever they call it.


That's your point of view, however. To them, it's not.

And that's my point - whether it is or it isn't is up to the people involved, plain and simple.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Interesting. For me sex and love are tightly interwoven. Eliminating the sex scenes from a romantic movie would seem to take something important away. 

Nothing wrong with your choice, just very different from the way I view the world. 

I'm curious, without any sort of movie (or I assume written) sex scenes, what gives you your ideas on lovemaking. Is it all things you discover for yourselves?



Diana7 said:


> I can only answer for us, but I would't look at porn even if for whatever reason we could't have sex. To us there is no excuse, its wrong and damaging. We also avoid films or programmes with sex scenes in them. My husband is even stricter than me about things like that. If I am watching something and a scene of a sexual nature comes on unexpectedly I will wizz the programme forward.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I talked to a lady some time ago who had a husband who had looked at porn for years. She had been deeply hurt by it and said that for her it was far worse that if he had physically cheated with one women. She felt she was having to compete with thousands of women and not just one, and I can see her point completely. I have no idea why she put up with it, I wouldn't.


Although I never considered it cheating, I certainly remembering feeling like I was competing with 1000's of young beautiful women. Which is reality because there is always someone with a better body, face etc than us and nobody is perfect. 

However, once we got to a stage where we were spending more time together and working on our relationship it occurred to me that that porn really couldn't compete with ME, it was a poor substitute. Porn girls do not get to cuddle with my husband at night, or have actual sex with him, or get lovely gifts, or share a joke, or share the thoughts of the day, or go on holiday together, or enjoy children, or a meal etc etc. Porn took about 10 minutes of his day and he actually had a very low opinion of those girls (disgust) and it made him feel very ashamed. :frown2:. Whereas when he spends time with me we generally have fun and laugh a lot - we have always been close friends. See the difference?

The realities of life is that we are always under threat of competition (ever been to a beach where women are topless and fit young men in shorts). The last time I went out without my husband I got hit on by a very handsome man, it made me feel good for a few minutes (like I was young free and single), then I went back to my husband and had sex. It felt good to be chatted up, but it was my husband I REALLY wanted. In theory my husband should have been threatened but it just made him smile because he thought he had a hot wife and that hot wife came to him for sex. There is a restaurant that my husband frequents with his friends and he says a lady that works there chats him up and he gets teased a little. In the past that would have worried me but because our relationship is very secure I actually quite like the thought of his ego getting a bit of a massage - as long as he comes to me at the end of the day!

Hope your friend found some closure over this because it can really eat away at you if you let it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Porn is not sex education and if someone, man or woman, is using it as a baseline for normal sexual expectations, than that person is obviously misinformed. 

Why do we send our young people out into the world ill equipped to engage in healthy consensual sexual activity? Why do we withhold vital information about the mechanics of having sex? Why don't we teach them HOW TO HAVE GOOD SEX? 

Because of the holdover religious belief system that teaches chastity but doesn't teach how to achieve chastity without keeping a child ignorant, doesn't prepare a young adult to enter into sexual activity with detailed information on the depth and breadth of human sexuality and doesn't prepare young people to talk about sex with their intended because ignorance is key in matters of control.

Because we lament our sex lives but fail to halt the passing down of ignorance and or shame.


Im not suggesting we show adult movie to children. A Monty Python movie perhaps?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I never saw a movie with a sex scene until after I was married. 

I learned by exploring with girls I knew. I started with massage, and worked from there. But that was all in the sixties of last century. When I began reading up on sex, it was mostly biology texts and actual research on sex in college libraries before I got married. But I had pretty much learned everything I found in those texts, because I was very inquisitive with the girls I knew.

Working slow, always looking for better responses, just taking my time, I had learned a lot. I really enjoy massaging girls. By the time I was 17 I knew where the clitoris glans was, and the first part of the clitoral shaft, and how important it was in female sexual response.

All it takes is caring. I never had any trouble finding girls who wanted to let me explore for hours.

My wife thinks modern pornography may be making boys less likely to become good lovers. I think boys are just bad at caring, and porn just gives them other bad examples they can emulate to show how bad they are, and they will do a bad job with or without the bad examples. But hey, I think her interpretation is more optimistic.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

badsanta said:


> When I first started to struggle to understand myself and my wife's views on this matter I found an odd forum thread on Oprah's website were there was a heated debate about this topic (well over a decade ago). It was endless post after post about varying views as people handle shame and pain related to this topic in very different ways.
> 
> It was reading through all these posts that I learned that "lying about porn" to your spouse is way worse than just directly dealing with your spouse's conflicting views on the topic as it undermines trust and communication in a marriage.
> 
> ...


Badsanta;

Porn is a very complicated subject. Porn addiction is something else. I think attitudes toward porn are very complicated.

As to one person watching porn and not telling the other, in my mind it is closely tied to masturbation and the "traditional shame" associated with it. While porn may not lead to masturbation, both are about self stimulation (maybe to or not to the point of orgasm). The societal taught shame of masturbation is often associated with porn.

another related topic is the Madonna/***** complex. I lust after the woman I married, then I impregnated her (multiple times) and she became the mother (Madonna) of my children. I might want to do anamalistic and explicitly sexual things with the love of my life, but I can't be so disrespectful to the mother of my children. She is a lady! Actually, I would be happy to, but my wife views herself as a mother and grandmother. She has even told me "You didn't marry a sl#t, don't expect me to act like one, even if it is in private." Ah, yes and she does have the Catholic Girls School imprinted view that masturbation is a horrible sin that will cause you to go to hell, so porn must be the same thing.

During Sex Therapy to save our marriage, the Sex Therapist gave us a few home work assignments to watch Sinclair Institute Better Sex instructional videos and then in the next session report back on what we had seen and thought about specific segments. My wife just refused to watch them as she thought that they were "porn." I would watch them in bed on a laptop, so that my wife knew I was doing the homework to try to save our marriage. She would just turn away and read her romance novel (very very soft romantic porn).

So watching porn together may or may not work, even if it is kind of "tame" and instructional "porn." Yes it was naked people having sex, so my wife called it porn.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You are a sensualist which is what makes you a good lover. You enjoy the journey which is why you learned about where and how to touch women so that they enjoy being touched.




WilliamM said:


> I never saw a movie with a sex scene until after I was married.
> 
> I learned by exploring with girls I knew. I started with massage, and worked from there. But that was all in the sixties of last century. When I began reading up on sex, it was mostly biology texts and actual research on sex in college libraries before I got married. But I had pretty much learned everything I found in those texts, because I was very inquisitive with the girls I knew.
> 
> ...



I think you're both right. But a caring lad will seek mutuality no matter how mistaken his idea of sex might be. Whereas even the best sex education won't make a selfish man into a good lover. 

If you're not into me, you're aren't getting in to me.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Teaching about sex and relationships has traditionally been left to parents, and some of them do a terrible job.

Mothers who teach their daughters that men just want sex, and to view it as a sort of bribe to catch a husband, but not something to enjoy. 

Parents like mine who couldn't talk at all about sex or relationships. Would never even hold hands in front of me and treated their lives like a business relationship. Mother cooks / cleans / raises kids. Father works, brings in money. No reason for them to ever spend time together.

Romance movies are no better. The teach the perfect partner is someone you originally dislike, who is fundamentally flawed (ex con, ex prostitute etc), and with whom you fight constantly. It may make a good story, but typically the best partner is someone you actually like and enjoy happy times together.







Anon Pink said:


> Porn is not sex education and if someone, man or woman, is using it as a baseline for normal sexual expectations, than that person is obviously misinformed.
> 
> Why do we send our young people out into the world ill equipped to engage in healthy consensual sexual activity? Why do we withhold vital information about the mechanics of having sex? Why don't we teach them HOW TO HAVE GOOD SEX?
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Not everyone who enjoys the journey learns to become a good lover. The two most frequent reactions to my trying to give women long massages were: "don't your hands ever get tired, we can stop now if you like", and "it isn't doing anything for me, can we just move on to sex so you can get off and we can go do something else". Never figured out how to make it good for my partner. Guess that is how I ended up with a woman who doesn't care much for sex. To her, my lack of technique was not a major downside because she didn't want what I am unable to offer. In the end, probably a good thing. I woman who did enjoy sex probably would have left me or cheated on me. Always a silver lining, right?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I talked to a lady some time ago who had a husband who had looked at porn for years. She had been deeply hurt by it and said that for her it was far worse that if he had physically cheated with one women. She felt she was having to compete with thousands of women and not just one, and I can see her point completely. I have no idea why she put up with it, I wouldn't.


I definitely agree with your sentiment.

Her feelings do not make something true however.

Actually having sex outside your marriage has far reaching consequences that leave watching porn in the dust.

How would she feel if he had a non stop mistress for years? I guaranty she would feel far worse than about him watching porn.

I do believe he is somewhat of an ass hat for disregarding his wife's emotions and wellbeing but we could learn more from his side as well.

BTW. The church ladies I referred to were trying to compare the use of porn by their respective husbands to their very real cases of adultery.

It was some of the most mind bending blame shifting I have ever seen!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Its cheating mentally. For both of us its a no no. I wouldn't marry a man who thought that looking at porn was ok, I am so grateful to have a husband who goes against the flow. I would never treat my husband in that way, in such an unloving and disrespectful manner. We both feel that the only naked bodies we should see are each other, and we value our marriage enough to keep to that.
> Faithfulness is more than actual physical sex.


Good point, I wonder how many men who view porn would enjoy their wives orgasming while looking at other naked men? I would feel like a cold heartless witch if I decided to lust after other men while ignoring my husband.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'd have no problem with my wife watching men in porn, but I would have a problem if she was doing it and ignoring me. 



Jessica38 said:


> Good point, I wonder how many men who view porn would enjoy their wives orgasming while looking at other naked men? I would feel like a cold heartless witch if I decided to lust after other men while ignoring my husband.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> Sure, it's adultery. I love adultery! Nothing at all wrong with it, if it's consensual. All adultery is, is having sex with someone who is not your spouse. The definition neither makes nor implies a value judgment. Infidelity is the term that implies a value judgment, because it requires a violation of an agreement.


Any adultery will end badly. Its a very serious thing and has no place in a committed marriage. If you want to sleep around then dont get married.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I definitely agree with your sentiment.
> 
> Her feelings do not make something true however.
> 
> ...


It is true for her, she knows, she had to deal with it. Porn use is cited in 60% of all divorces now which doesn't surprise me at all. 
I agree with those ladies, if I was with a man who treated me so badly and so unlovingly and so disrespectfully that he looked at porn and wouldn't stop, I would see it as just as bad as physical cheating and probably end the marriage. For us as Christians, Jesus warns us that lusting after other people is adultery of the heart, and just as bad. That's what porn is. 

Cant see what it has to do with blame shifting at all. The one who looks at porn is to blame.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> Good point, I wonder how many men who view porn would enjoy their wives orgasming while looking at other naked men? I would feel like a cold heartless witch if I decided to lust after other men while ignoring my husband.


I would feel the same if I was doing that as WELL as having sex with my husband. I love and respect him far too much to act that way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexm said:


> That's your point of view, however. To them, it's not.
> 
> And that's my point - whether it is or it isn't is up to the people involved, plain and simple.


The meaning of adultery is when a married person has sex with someone who isnt their spouse, so yes its adultery whether they agree to it or not.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Any adultery will end badly. Its a very serious thing and has no place in a committed marriage. If you want to sleep around then dont get married.


You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not based on experience with ethical non-monogamy, so I think it's based in ignorance. The only thing you've said here that I agree with is that it's a serious thing - and as such is not to be taken lightly. It doesn't always end badly - I can give tens of thousands of examples to the contrary. If you mean only non-consensual scenarios, then yes, it will usually end badly. I don't deal in those. It can have a wonderful place in a committed marriage, if the couple chooses it. And there is no reason you can't be married AND have sex with others, if you mutually choose to do so. You are coming from a worldview that many people do not share and do not want to share. There is nothing wrong with your views - for you and those (admittedly, the majority of people) who think like you. Your views are wrong for me, and millions of others. They are not wrong - but they are different. What irks me is your petty prejudice that you have the only valid definition of marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> You're entitled to your opinion, but it's not based on experience with ethical non-monogamy, so I think it's based in ignorance. The only thing you've said here that I agree with is that it's a serious thing - and as such is not to be taken lightly. It doesn't always end badly - I can give tens of thousands of examples to the contrary. If you mean only non-consensual scenarios, then yes, it will usually end badly. I don't deal in those. It can have a wonderful place in a committed marriage, if the couple chooses it. And there is no reason you can't be married AND have sex with others, if you mutually choose to do so. You are coming from a worldview that many people do not share and do not want to share. There is nothing wrong with your views - for you and those (admittedly, the majority of people) who think like you. Your views are wrong for me, and millions of others. They are not wrong - but they are different. What irks me is your petty prejudice that you have the only valid definition of marriage.


I dont know a single person who thinks its ok to sleep around when you are married. Marriage is about forsaking all others and faithfulness. 
Maybe a tiny number think as you do, the majority of us are able to be faithful and monogamous and know that its very important in marriage. 
No it isn't 'wonderful in a committed marriage' to sleep around, when you commit adultery there is no commitment. Part of faithfulness and commitment is saving sexual intimacy for the one made promises to. I cant imagine treating my husband so terribly. I love and respect him far far too much.


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## Good Guy (Apr 26, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> Good point, I wonder how many men who view porn would enjoy their wives orgasming while looking at other naked men? I would feel like a cold heartless witch if I decided to lust after other men while ignoring my husband.


I'd say the ones that have wives who rarely have sex with them wouldn't complain if it meant they had more sex with them!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> It is true for her, she knows, she had to deal with it. Porn use is cited in 60% of all divorces now which doesn't surprise me at all.
> I agree with those ladies, if I was with a man who treated me so badly and so unlovingly and so disrespectfully that he looked at porn and wouldn't stop, I would see it as just as bad as physical cheating and probably end the marriage. For us as Christians, Jesus warns us that lusting after other people is adultery of the heart, and just as bad. That's what porn is.
> 
> Cant see what it has to do with blame shifting at all. The one who looks at porn is to blame.


You and I disagree on a point or three. I can very easily debunk your argument about viewing images of sex as being the same as having sex in both the secular and non secular arena.

If you want to argue the religious side with me, I would gladly give my view in the politics and religion forum.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Not everyone who enjoys the journey learns to become a good lover. The two most frequent reactions to my trying to give women long massages were: "don't your hands ever get tired, we can stop now if you like", and "it isn't doing anything for me, can we just move on to sex so you can get off and we can go do something else". Never figured out how to make it good for my partner. Guess that is how I ended up with a woman who doesn't care much for sex. To her, my lack of technique was not a major downside because she didn't want what I am unable to offer. In the end, probably a good thing. I woman who did enjoy sex probably would have left me or cheated on me. Always a silver lining, right?


Maybe....or....

Perhaps you had the bad luck to give your sensual energies to women who were not sensual and therefore could not appreciate your efforts? Perhaps she didn't like giving massages and felt bad about accepting a massage she didn't want to reciprocate? Perhaps the woman who was eager to get sex out of the way and move on to other things was a woman who wasn't into sex no matter who was providing it.

Stop beating yourself up man! I'm all for honest self assessment and reflection but I wonder if your self reflection has morphed into self flagellation. Because really, how do you screw up a massage? Too hard? Too limited to one muscle? Really, how do you screw up a massage?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I dont know a single person who thinks its ok to sleep around when you are married. Marriage is about forsaking all others and faithfulness.
> Maybe a tiny number think as you do, the majority of us are able to be faithful and monogamous and know that its very important in marriage.
> No it isn't 'wonderful in a committed marriage' to sleep around, when you commit adultery there is no commitment. Part of faithfulness and commitment is saving sexual intimacy for the one made promises to. I cant imagine treating my husband so terribly. I love and respect him far far too much.


You exemplify the church lady in all her rigid uptight repressed judginess. We get it, you're a Christian who thinks everyone should live by christian values, whether they are Christian or not. 

No one here is trying to convince you to watch porn, or to allow your husband to watch porn.

No one here is trying to convince you to open your marriage.

And yet post after post of yours here in SIM is you stating how you feel about something and then proclaiming your opinion to be the only definition, the only way, the only answer.

On behalf of heathens everywhere, I'd like to thank you for affirming my complete animosity toward most brands of Christianity.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You exemplify the church lady in all her rigid uptight repressed judginess. We get it, you're a Christian who thinks everyone should live by christian values, whether they are Christian or not.
> 
> No one here is trying to convince you to watch porn, or to allow your husband to watch porn.
> 
> ...


Yup. This is some of what I'm banging my head against in my circles. :wink2:


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I dont know a single person who thinks its ok to sleep around when you are married. Marriage is about forsaking all others and faithfulness.
> Maybe a tiny number think as you do, the majority of us are able to be faithful and monogamous and know that its very important in marriage.
> No it isn't 'wonderful in a committed marriage' to sleep around, when you commit adultery there is no commitment. Part of faithfulness and commitment is saving sexual intimacy for the one made promises to. I cant imagine treating my husband so terribly. I love and respect him far far too much.


Porn is not "sleeping around". 

I have very tight boundaries around what I want in marriage and very high expectations of a partner and yes that includes being faithful and monogamous but IMHO porn does not break that boundary.

As importantly it is super important that I am not micro managed by a man and I have no desire to do that to him. It would feel suffocating to be in a place where even seeing a sex scene in a movie is taboo. I also find it very unnatural to bind another up so tightly that even looking at another person naked is considered wrong and akin to infidelity. 

Again this is how I choose to live, what others do is their to own. But just because others have different boundaries there should be no judgement eg MBH is a poster that has much broader boundaries in his life, all power to him and MrsMBH the difference is that he has broader boundaries but also great respect in his marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Good Guy said:


> I'd say the ones that have wives who rarely have sex with them wouldn't complain if it meant they had more sex with them!


Maybe they would prefer their wives had more sex without looking at naked men!


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Porn is not "sleeping around".
> 
> I have very tight boundaries around what I want in marriage and very high expectations of a partner and yes that includes being faithful and monogamous but IMHO porn does not break that boundary.
> 
> ...


You don't seem to get it. 
I find it so freeing having a husband who treats me so well as to forsake all others and not look at porn. I love being married to a very moral man who has such standards. We don't 'bind each other' up at all, we both had these standards long long before we met each other and I love him for it. We each have our own moral values, we don't impose them on each other. He is the most easy going, easy to please man I have ever met, he never tells me how to act in this area or what I can and cant do. My moral values are my own. I will avoid sex scenes even if he isn't with me, I don't think its good for our marriage to see them. Intimacy is for us alone. I am not going to bring other men into the marriage bed, even if they are only in my mind. I respect and love him far too much to do that. 

I know what porn use and infidelity does, I have seen far too many marriages destroyed by these things. 

By sleeping around I was talking about an open marriage not porn. 

There are so many studies and articles around now telling us the damage that porn does, both to those who look and to the marriages. We would have to be blind not to know this now.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> You exemplify the church lady in all her rigid uptight repressed judginess. We get it, you're a Christian who thinks everyone should live by christian values, whether they are Christian or not.
> 
> No one here is trying to convince you to watch porn, or to allow your husband to watch porn.
> 
> ...


Having seen so many people and marriages destroyed though infidelity and porn use, I hope that people will learn the terrible damage it does both to the one who looks at it and to marriage in generaL.its sad that so few understand the damage and harm it does, and the amazing marriage and sex they can have if both are completely faithful. 

When we marry we make promises, it all depends on whether we want to keep those promises or not in the end. 

I get that you and others get angry when you encounter people who dont do this, because its going against the flow and that is never popular. There are many like us though, who recognise that its a horrible industry that damages so many in it and so many who use it. The only winners are those who make billions out of it. 

If you asked my husband, family and friends, you would know that I am not in the least rigid or repressed or uptight. I have never been happier or more relaxed. I am a very easy going and easy to please person, as is my husband. I am also someone who wont let anyone treat me badly, so I would never be with a man who thinks its ok to look at porn.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Anon Pink said:


> Porn is not sex education and if someone, man or woman, is using it as a baseline for normal sexual expectations, than that person is obviously misinformed.


Agreed, for the most part.

There are actually many 'how-to' videos, for starters, which would be considered porn by many (ie. graphic).

There are also many, many home-made videos available on certain free porn sites, that have real people doing real things in them.

If one is talking straight-up studio-produced porn, then yes, that's fake (and the people are even more so, usually!) and there's nothing educational about it. But there's plenty of so-called 'amateur' porn out there that isn't fake.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Having seen so many people and marriages destroyed though infidelity and porn use, I hope that people will learn the terrible damage it does both to the one who looks at it and to marriage in generaL.its sad that so few understand the damage and harm it does, and the amazing marriage and sex they can have if both are completely faithful.
> 
> When we marry we make promises, it all depends on whether we want to keep those promises or not in the end.
> 
> I get that you and others get angry when you encounter people who dont do this, because its going against the flow and that is never popular. There are many like us though, who recognise that its a horrible industry that damages so many in it and so many who use it. The only winners are those who make billions out of it.


I think what others are saying, and I agree with, is that you're making it all very black and white. The world simply isn't black and white.

I can't attest to open marriages and such, but I can speak to porn use.

I'm a guy who is HD, yet only has sex 3-4 times a month, and I only watch porn occasionally. Many, many people, like myself, are entirely capable of moderation in things, such as porn. Some are not, unfortunately. Some simply have addictive personalities, or a need to escape from reality. But really, most people I'd wager, do not.

So things like porn addiction (or addiction to anything, really) very much depends on the person, not the circumstances, IMO.

Porn addiction can be, and is, very destructive to a marriage, there's no doubt. But the addictive personality came first, and the circumstances are, IMO, the justification, not the cause.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It is wonderful that you have a great relationship, I really mean that. You and your husband are compatible and happy. Unfortunately not everyone is so fortunate. 

Imagine if you decided that you no longer wanted sex with your husband. You just didn't feel like it and wouldn't do it. Would you prefer if he divorced you or watched porn, or should he stay in a sexless marriage, not even able to enjoy some fantasy himself?







Diana7 said:


> You don't seem to get it.
> I find it so freeing having a husband who treats me so well as to forsake all others and not look at porn. I love being married to a very moral man who has such standards. We don't 'bind each other' up at all, we both had these standards long long before we met each other and I love him for it. We each have our own moral values, we don't impose them on each other. He is the most easy going, easy to please man I have ever met, he never tells me how to act in this area or what I can and cant do. My moral values are my own. I will avoid sex scenes even if he isn't with me, I don't think its good for our marriage to see them. Intimacy is for us alone. I am not going to bring other men into the marriage bed, even if they are only in my mind. I respect and love him far too much to do that.
> 
> I know what porn use and infidelity does, I have seen far too many marriages destroyed by these things.
> ...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> It is wonderful that you have a great relationship, I really mean that. You and your husband are compatible and happy. Unfortunately not everyone is so fortunate.
> 
> Imagine if you decided that you no longer wanted sex with your husband. You just didn't feel like it and wouldn't do it. Would you prefer if he divorced you or watched porn, or should he stay in a sexless marriage, not even able to enjoy some fantasy himself?


I'd prefer he work with me to improve the marriage. My issue with porn is mainly that many men turn to it instead of turning to their wives, especially if there are issues in the marriage. This can affect intimacy big time. Just like I think it would affect intimacy if I turned to other men to meet my intimate needs instead of my husband.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Having seen so many people and marriages destroyed though infidelity and porn use, I hope that *people will learn the terrible damage it does* both to the one who looks at it and to marriage in generaL.its sad that *so few understand  the damage and harm it does, and the amazing marriage and sex they can have if both are completely faithful.*


The bolded parts are called opinions. Opinions are not facts. 
The underlined parts are called opinion based judgements. Opinion based judgements are best left to those who have done the actual research, you know with actual science, peer reviewed, longitudinal, you know...science. Reading the Bible, attending mass, and engaging on TAM is neither research, nor science. It is called anecdotal.




> When we marry we make promises, it all depends on whether we want to keep those promises or not in the end.


Promises stated and expectations both stated and unstated. Relationships are messy and there are no hard and fast one size fits all rules that can accurately promise a close and loving marriage. You write as if you have the answer and the fact is that you do not.



> I get that you and others get angry when you encounter people who dont do this, because its going against the flow and that is never popular. There are many like us though, who recognise that its a horrible industry that damages so many in it and so many who use it. The only winners are those who make billions out of it.


I'm pretty sure the coal industry has the lock on 'harmful, damaging and horrible' to both makers (miners) and users, not to mention everyone else who lives in the vicinity of coal based energy production.

But hey let's ignore facts because they sure are inconvenient. And instead let's act like our lack of factual evidence is really just other people being popular bullies.

WRT porn... I'm sure that a significant amount of available porn involves victimizing the participants in a lasting and harmful way. But not porn made in countries that have labor regulations. Porn from very poor countries is supporting the victimization of women and girls.

Being a bartender can have negative effects. Being a doctor, a nurse, a cop...there are risks in every profession...which is why we have labor laws that reduce the risk and increase the safety and fairness of the employee.

But let's do away with collective bargaining, and OSHA and instead let's give more power to the employer, who is more than likely a big corporation and not your neighborhood bakery. 




> If you asked my husband, family and friends, you would know that I am not in the least rigid or repressed or uptight. I have never been happier or more relaxed. I am a very easy going and easy to please person, as is my husband. I am also someone who wont let anyone treat me badly, so I would never be with a man who thinks its ok to look at porn.



Because you believe porn to be evil on all fronts, you believe that a man who looks at porn is engaging in evil. Which is perfectly logical and okay for you. 

It is also true that many Catholics believe that semen should only be deposited in the vagina in welcoming of a potential birth and any sort of sex that does not end with semen inside the vagina is considered absolutely wrong. Wrong because it could never result in a birth if the semen is deposited in a mouth, or a hand, or a tissue, or the anus, or the neck, or the breasts, or the back or stomach. Wrong because all sexual energy outside of procreative intent, is called lust and lust is wrong.

Anyone who came to SIM and spouted such rigid and inflexible opinion based judgements would be shouted down and shoo'd away from participating because this forum is about Sex In Marriage. Not sex in the Christian marriage, or sex in the Muslim marriage, or even sex in the open marriage. It is about sex within the context of a committed relationship between consenting adults and opinion based judgements with no basis in facts or science should be stated as "I believe that..." or "my faith teaches me that...." or "in my opinion ...."

When the medical community publishes guidelines and recommendations they are based in fact. Unless you have something to say that is backed up by research somewhere, you are pushing your beliefs and values on others.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

alexm said:


> Agreed, for the most part.
> 
> There are actually many 'how-to' videos, for starters, which would be considered porn by many (ie. graphic).
> 
> ...


Clearly I need to broaden my porn exposure! I recently came across this web site dealing with women learning to orgasm... I don't find it porn but it involves frank discussions about the female body and ways to induce arousal and orgasm and naked women being touched to orgasm. 


https://www.omgyes.com


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

There are scientific, peer-reviewed studies showing that porn causes issues in marriage:

*1. Porn-free relationships are stronger, with a lower rate of infidelity.*

That’s what Amanda Maddox and her colleagues found in a study of men and women, ages 18 to 34, who were in romantic relationships. The researchers measured the levels of negative communication, relationship adjustment, dedication or interpersonal commitment, sexual satisfaction, and infidelity. In their study, 76.8 percent of men and 34.6 percent of women looked at sexually explicit material alone; 44.8 percent reported viewing it with partners. They found that people who didn’t view any porn had lower levels of negative communication, were more committed to the relationship, and had higher sexual satisfaction and relationship adjustment. *Their rate of infidelity was at least half of those who had watched sexual material alone and with their partners.* But people who only watched porn with their partners were more dedicated to the relationship and more sexually satisfied than those who watched alone.

It goes on to say that watching porn diminishes relationship commitment.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/tech-support/201407/what-porn-does-intimacy

And this study in the Journal of Family and Economic Issues: Pornography and Marriage | SpringerLink

"*We found that adults who had watched an X-rated movie in the past year were more likely to be divorced, more likely to have had an extramarital affair, and less likely to report being happy with their marriage or happy overall*. We also found that, for men, pornography use reduced the positive relationship between frequency of sex and happiness. Finally, we found that the negative relationship between pornography use and marital well-being has, if anything, grown stronger over time, during a period in which pornography has become both more explicit and more easily available."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Having seen so many people and marriages destroyed though infidelity and porn use, I hope that people will learn the terrible damage it does both to the one who looks at it and to marriage in generaL.its sad that so few understand the damage and harm it does, and the amazing marriage and sex they can have if both are completely faithful.
> 
> When we marry we make promises, it all depends on whether we want to keep those promises or not in the end.
> 
> ...


Just so you understand where this barbarian stands,...

I find the porn industry vile. Same or worse than straight up prostitution.

I don't advocate for it but against and I do believe it weakens marriages at best.

I do not, however, equate watching sex, simulated or otherwise, as the same as physically or emotionally cheating with an actual person.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I'd prefer he work with me to improve the marriage. My issue with porn is mainly that many men turn to it instead of turning to their wives, especially if there are issues in the marriage. This can affect intimacy big time. Just like I think it would affect intimacy if I turned to other men to meet my intimate needs instead of my husband.


But that is not because of porn's existence. Before porn there were still pics,burlesque, strip shows, topless dancers, further back there was erotic art and nude dancing, further back there were live shows and nude women serving exclusively male patrons.

The point is that porn, showing nude bodies and nude bodies engaged in sex acts, has been around since the printing press. The women involved were all victimized, almost always. Only recently, with the explosion of digital media, has porn become so easily available and only recently have anyone ever bothered with protecting women and girls from being victimized.

Men, being visual creatures and always always always having had more freedom, have availaled themselves of erotic imagery when available.

When we as a society remove stigmatization of, and rigid control upon sexuality in general we victimize less people because sexuality can never be successfully rigidly controlled. 

When we as a society have also insisted on, passed, and enforced laws that prevent victimization, and provide worker rights we will also victimize less people.

Porn isn't bad. Rigidity is bad. Ignorance is bad. Inequality is bad.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> But that is not because of porn's existence. Before porn there were still pics,burlesque, strip shows, topless dancers, further back there was erotic art and nude dancing, further back there were live shows and nude women serving exclusively male patrons.
> 
> The point is that porn, showing nude bodies and nude bodies engaged in sex acts, has been around since the printing press. The women involved were all victimized, almost always. Only recently, with the explosion of digital media, has porn become so easily available and only recently have anyone ever bothered with protecting women and girls from being victimized.
> 
> ...


To be clear, in no way am I advocating for stricter legislation/laws on porn. I'm a libertarian- live and let live. But porn is shown to cause damage in marriage. That is a fact. Use it at your discretion, but I agree- do not be ignorant of the fact that if you are married, it could impact the intimacy in marriage, as it is shown to do so.

And there are MANY sexual practices (hedonism) that have been a part of ancient cultures/civilaizations. Along with erotic literature and art in Ancient Rome, for example, was widespread prostitution. In no way do I believe that is healthy for modern marriage. Because porn is now more readily available does not make it any less damaging to the intimacy in marriage- in fact, research shows it is actually more damaging due to on-demand instant access, not to mention availability and younger ages.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> There are scientific, peer-reviewed studies showing that porn causes issues in marriage:
> 
> *1. Porn-free relationships are stronger, with a lower rate of infidelity.*
> 
> ...




LOL, and then there are the NONgerrypicked reviews of studies.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...re-any-evidence-porn-is-harmful-relationships



> "As pornography has become more widely available – thanks in no small part to the internet – rates of rape appear to have been declining rather markedly over the same time period; in much the same way, violence has been declining despite violent video games being more common and accessible than ever. The world is a complex place and there are plenty of variables at play, so those correlations are just that. Nevertheless, the evidence that pornography causes any kind of sexual offending is “inconsistent at best” (Ferguson & Hartley, 2009) and, given the nature of the topic, one might reasonably suspect that at least some of that inconsistency has to do with researchers setting out to find certain conclusions. To be blunt about it, some researchers probably “have their answer”, so to speak, before they even begin the research, and might either game their projects to find that result, or interpret otherwise ambiguous results in a manner consistent with their favored hypothesis"




https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...2/porn-could-ruin-relationship-it-doesnt-have



> "A marriage is going along just fine—until the day a wife discovers that her husband has been watching Internet porn. This porn typically bears little resemblance to what she and her husband do in bed. Maybe the sex is rougher, kinkier, wilder, or the women in the videos look nothing like her. They are younger or older than she is, thinner or fatter, or dressed in fishnet stockings or bustiers. Maybe they say nasty words during the sex, things she would never think of uttering.
> 
> She feels betrayed, almost as if she had found him in bed with another woman. Then the labels come out—sex addict, pervert, deviant, liar—raining down upon the husband like spears. He is embarrassed, filled with shame, and swears he’ll never again pursue such fantasies. He promises to stop watching porn and to do anything else that would help him escape his wife’s wrath, anything that can erase the shame he’s feeling from being exposed. And he really means to keep his promise, but in another week, month, or year, he is drawn back to that irresistible make-believe sexual world."



I could google and post all day but I suspect I'd be wasting my time. The fact remains that there is no actual evidence that porn ruins marriages. Because it's not the porn ruining the marriage!


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> LOL, and then there are the NONgerrypicked reviews of studies.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...re-any-evidence-porn-is-harmful-relationships
> 
> ...


I remember in October 2014 you told me to stop scapegoating porn and 'get to the heart of the matter'. Turned out that was considerably easier and quicker than trying analyze the allure and philosophy of porn (which turns out to be a far more complicated subject than I first thought).

Answer: just have more sex. then have more interesting sex. :smile2:


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Anon Pink said:


> LOL, and then there are the NONgerrypicked reviews of studies.
> 
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...re-any-evidence-porn-is-harmful-relationships
> 
> ...


Peer-reviewed scientific studies ARE evidence-based and your first citation shows that porn use correlates to a decrease in rape (always a good thing, for sure). The second quote you linked is an opinion piece and doesn't appear to be linked to a scientific study. The psychologist's opinion that in some cases, porn in marriage doesn't HAVE to cause issues is an interesting point, but for the wife he portrays above, I'd argue that if she feels betrayed, it already has. Obviously you feel differently, and that's fine!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> Reading the Bible, attending mass, and *engaging on TAM is neither research, nor science.* It is called anecdotal.


WTF AP, every single post I make on TAM is purely science/research based! Well, most of my posts ... OK, maybe a handful ...



Anon Pink said:


> I could google and post all day but I suspect I'd be wasting my time. The fact remains that there is no actual evidence that porn ruins marriages. Because it's not the porn ruining the marriage!



Putting aside those who suffer from addiction, the question still remains, is porn the cause of problems in a relationship or is it just simply a symptom. I would bet it is much easier to just point the finger at porn as the problem then to actually look at yourself and ask the difficult questions.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

peacem said:


> I remember in October 2014 you told me to stop scapegoating porn and 'get to the heart of the matter'. Turned out that was considerably easier and quicker than trying analyze the allure and philosophy of porn (which turns out to be a far more complicated subject than I first thought).
> 
> Answer: just have more sex. then have more interesting sex. :smile2:


Thank you for posting that.

To have more sex you needed to look inside yourself and own what you wanted and needed and disown what was false.

And to have more interesting sex you had to let go and embrace new ideas.

I'm coming across as the champion for porn and that's not entirely accurate. Your post reminded me what is MOST important to me and the reason why I come back to SIM all the time. 

The heart of the matter is almost always fear based. Porn is not the monster under the bed. The committee to end porn are preventing people from getting to the heart of the matter.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> WTF AP, every single post I make on TAM is purely science/research based! Well, most of my posts ... OK, maybe a handful ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is the heart of the matter.

More and more women are becoming porn viewers, smut readers, etc. Why? Because the internet allows a woman to engage in media based eroticism privately, without fear of shame, or fear of being victimized. As we remove the stigma of **** shaming and encourage women to embrace all of their sexuality and not just religious doctrinal approved sexuality women are safer to explore eroticism just as men have always been.

There are still many women afraid to go into a sex shop and browse toys made for women! But now the internet allows women to buy toys privately, discretely and safely.

We must encourage sexual exploration and end **** shaming and rigid controls on women and their sexuality.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Jessica38

Your first link was a review of studies done by others. Not a review of a study conducted by the author. This means the author of your link, browsed various studies done by others and picked out studies that supported her hypothesis.

Secondarily, the studies that the author you quoted, quoted for her review, (the studies she picked out) were all studies done on college students based on self reporting. These are called corollary studies and they are not evidence based. 

"Measured levels of commitment among porn "users" and found those who used porn had lower levels of commitment."

But that study only showed a correlation between a cause and potential effect. As we've seen in this thread alone, people in sex starved marriages turn to masturbation and porn for their sexual outlet. Someone inna sex starved marriage would logically have LESS commitment to their partner. So which came first? The study doesn't address that single most important question and therefore the answer the author attempts to explain is a flawed answer.

Also, the very fact that the author chose the word "user" instead of "viewer" broadcasts her intent and bias, which nullifies her hypothesis.


I didn't even bother with your second link.

And this marks the end of the battle of the Google and post war.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think citing research and peer-reviewed studies is in any way a "google war," after all, you're the one who mentioned that we not make decisions based on ignorance. Reading, learning, and sharing is why we're all here, right? I thought that your sharing the opinion of a psychologist was interesting, just as Diana's input was interesting.

It doesn't have to be a "war" because we use information published on reputable sites and in peer-reviewed scientific journals gleaned from internet search engines.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> We will have to agree to disagree. I don't think citing research and peer-reviewed studies is in any way a "google war," after all, you're the one who mentioned that we not make decisions based on ignorance. Reading, learning, and sharing is why we're all here, right? I thought that your sharing the opinion of a psychologist was interesting, just as Diana's input was interesting.
> 
> It doesn't have to be a "war" because we use information published on reputable sites and in peer-reviewed scientific journals gleaned from internet search engines.



@Jessica38 this is my opinion here, but from what I have read regarding scientific research on the topic of porn, it would seem as if scientists have a very difficult time finding a "control group" that has never been exposed to porn. So I have to conclude that any research done on pornography was done so with an actual control group never exposed to porn represents an anomaly in today's society which would likely skew any results of any research. 

So for conducting research on couples that do NOT ever watch any porn, where do you find them? Here are a few examples that I can think of:

dishonest participants seeking a financial incentive to participate in sexuality research
participants that adhere to a very strict religious code of sexual conduct
participants that have been abused and have negative attitudes towards sexuality
participants that are asexual and unmotivated regarding the topic of sexuality
participants that were very overprotected by their parents regarding access to materials of a sexual nature

The idea that you easily could find average couples that have always had access to porn but yet have chosen to completely ignore it feeling that such content is of no use to them is an issue that the scientific community admits is problematic. 

So choosing to trust any research on the topic, is also problematic at best.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jessica, human sexuality is complicated. So complicated in fact that only in the last 10 years have researchers acknowledged most sex research doesn't apply to women. Today, right now today, there is no definitive range of what scientists and clinicians deem "normal sexual response" among women, and even the widely held barometer of normal, the bell curve, is suspect when applied to women's sexuality.

In the last 15 years cardiologists have recognized that women's cardiac symptoms rarely present the way a man's typically does.

Just those two examples tells me that when it comes to women, science doesn't fully understand the depth and breadth of the difference between men and women.

With me so far?

Now, any study conducted about sex needs to ensure parity between the sexes because we know, as in documented factually know, that we cannot apply normal range of sexual behavior to women.

Did those studies find women who used porn at the same rate and frequency the male participants did? Don't know because it doesn't say and if it doesn't say it most likely didn't. And it didn't because it would have had to quadrupled the amount of women in the study in order to gain parity. Because men outnumber women 4 to 1 when it comes to porn "viewing." It didn't even discuss smut (erotic stories) but lots of people lump that into porn also.

Now, I know these things about accepted statistics because I have to know these things, more accurately, I used to have to know these things. But the vast majority of people do not. And since they do not know these things they do not know how to discriminate between valid sexual information and invalid sexual information.

If you did not know that psychologists and the DSMV do not have a definition of normal sexual response for women, if you did not know that women typically present with different symptoms even with quantifiable diseases, if you did not know that current statistics show that men outnumber women 4-1 on visual porn and the jury is still out in smut, you would not know how to spot good info and how to spot crap info.

Since my goal is to PROMOTE understanding and acceptance of human sexuality, I will discredit links that lead to misinformation, or very flawed hypothesis.

While I applaud you or anyone else interested in learning about human sexuality, I would strongly encourage that you use trusted sources for information and learn how to spot crap info.

Here are some excellent sites that I trust

https://kinseyinstitute.org/research/publications/faq.php

Scarleteen | Sex Education For The Real World


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Can I suggest a truce! 

I think fundamentally everyone agrees that porn addiction exists. I would wager that everyone believes that the road to porn addiction can be a slippery slope.

The same can be said about alcoholism. However, as a society we have not made alcohol illegal nor have be banned it. We have societal norms against public drunkenness. 

The key to everything is moderation. Whether it is eating and one's weight, porn use or social drinking.

To me the key is does the watching of porn, harm the partner and reduce their ability to get the sex they need in a healthy marriage? If not then I will go back to one of the lessons I learned in saving my marriage. I cannot change my partner. I can tell them my desires, what hurts me, what pleases me, but ultimately it is my partner's choice as to whether to change their behavior or not change it. As someone in a marriage, I should make my feelings and boundaries known and try to negotiate with my spouse for what I "need," but that doesn't mean I can force my spouse to change.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I completely agree that turning to porn and ignoring your partner is very bad. I know that a fair number of men do this.

I was just pointing out that there is also the different situation of men (or women) who turn to porn because their partners refuse almost all intimacy. 

There is likely a 3rd case where someones ideas of sex are so distorted by porn that their partner turns down their unreasonable requests. 




Jessica38 said:


> I'd prefer he work with me to improve the marriage. My issue with porn is mainly that many men turn to it instead of turning to their wives, especially if there are issues in the marriage. This can affect intimacy big time. Just like I think it would affect intimacy if I turned to other men to meet my intimate needs instead of my husband.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are some very good instructional videos, and some very good erotica out that that represent real lovemaking. In addition to some homemade stuff, some producers specialize in this. 

Then the is the continuum to really unrealistic pro stuff. 



Anon Pink said:


> Clearly I need to broaden my porn exposure! I recently came across this web site dealing with women learning to orgasm... I don't find it porn but it involves frank discussions about the female body and ways to induce arousal and orgasm and naked women being touched to orgasm.
> 
> 
> https://www.omgyes.com


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I won't be discrediting peer-reviewed scientific journals like the Journal of Family and Economic Issues as "spot crap info," as they are respected and acceptable resources in the field, and while I haven't researched Scarleteen, I appreciate the link! 

BadSanta, agreed, blind trust in any resource is problematic and science is always evolving, but when asked for evidence, peer-reviewed scientific journals are one of the best primary sources for credible information we've got. But certainly, studies have their limitations.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> To me the key is does the watching of porn, harm the partner and reduce their ability to get the sex they need in a healthy marriage?


Agree with everything you wrote but I would change the above slightly: To me the key is does the watching of porn, harm the watcher and reduce their ability to provide the sex their partner needs in a healthy marriage?

That is, my job is to provide my partner with the sex they need. If my watching porn bothers them, so they don't feel like having sex with me, then it interferes with me satisfying my partner. If my watching porn reduces my interest in my partner, so I don't feel like having sex with them, then it interferes with me satisfying my partner.

If my partner is satisfied with our sex life, then they shouldn't begrudge me watching porn.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Agree with everything you wrote but I would change the above slightly: To me the key is does the watching of porn, harm the watcher and reduce their ability to provide the sex their partner needs in a healthy marriage?
> 
> That is, my job is to provide my partner with the sex they need. If my watching porn bothers them, so they don't feel like having sex with me, then it interferes with me satisfying my partner. If my watching porn reduces my interest in my partner, so I don't feel like having sex with them, then it interferes with me satisfying my partner.
> 
> If my partner is satisfied with our sex life, then they shouldn't begrudge me watching porn.


I'm sorry if this is nit picking...

But "If my watching porn bothers them so that they don't feel like having sex with me" is canceled out by "If my partner is satisfied with our sex life then they should t begrudge me watching porn."

Porn is only a problem when the viewer's partner isn't getting the sexual energy they desire.

Being so bothered by your partner viewing porn that you no longer want sex with them, is only valid, IMO, if the porn they go to involved children or death/dismemberment. Sexual expression is very very varied, there is no normal.

Feeling like your porn viewing partner is being unfaithful because of the porn, is shaming a normal sexual behavior and that is wrong!


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> You don't seem to get it.
> I find it so freeing having a husband who treats me so well as to forsake all others and not look at porn. I love being married to a very moral man who has such standards. We don't 'bind each other' up at all, we both had these standards long long before we met each other and I love him for it. We each have our own moral values, we don't impose them on each other. He is the most easy going, easy to please man I have ever met, he never tells me how to act in this area or what I can and cant do. My moral values are my own. I will avoid sex scenes even if he isn't with me, I don't think its good for our marriage to see them. Intimacy is for us alone. I am not going to bring other men into the marriage bed, even if they are only in my mind. I respect and love him far too much to do that.
> 
> I know what porn use and infidelity does, I have seen far too many marriages destroyed by these things.
> ...


Yes I do get it, you hold yourself to certain standards which is fantastic for you. What you don't seem to get is that you are being extremely judgemental of how other people chose to live. 

The reason you and your husband don't impose your values on each other is that you both chose to live the same life yet you come here and try to impose your values on strangers.

You chose to live the way you do, yay for you. Others chose to live differently but it does not mean your moral standards are higher, you and your husband are not automatically better people because of the way you live.


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Yes I do get it, you hold yourself to certain standards which is fantastic for you. What you don't seem to get is that you are being extremely judgemental of how other people chose to live.
> 
> The reason you and your husband don't impose your values on each other is that you both chose to live the same life yet you come here and try to impose your values on strangers.
> 
> You chose to live the way you do, yay for you. Others chose to live differently but it does not mean your moral standards are higher, you and your husband are not automatically better people because of the way you live.




Totally true. 

I applaud those couples who only gaze upon each other's naked bodies...but, I also applaud those kinkster couples who are totally on board with viewing porn, alone or together, who engage in hawt fantasies and role play with each other, or are totally on board with multiples. Whatever a couple completely agrees on should be kosher. Why all the judging?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I'd prefer he work with me to improve the marriage. My issue with porn is mainly that many men turn to it instead of turning to their wives, especially if there are issues in the marriage. This can affect intimacy big time. Just like I think it would affect intimacy if I turned to other men to meet my intimate needs instead of my husband.


I don't think you are as shallow as this post would indicate?

So a spouse watching porn can, and often does, affect intimacy. A spouse having sex outside of their marriage can, and often does, affect intimacy....as well as betray marriage vows, risks STDs, paternity fraud, etc....

If I came home and found my wife watching porn, I would have a conversation with her while making her feel safe enough for her to open up to me about it and express my feelings as well.

If I came home to find another man inside her and his next conversation would possibly be with God and I might be looking at jail time while filing for divorce and shaming the hell out of my soon to be ex.

Little bit different? Not in your mind?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

introvert said:


> Totally true.
> 
> I applaud those couples who only gaze upon each other's naked bodies...but, I also applaud those kinkster couples who are totally on board with viewing porn, alone or together, who engage in hawt fantasies* and role play with each other*, or are totally on board with multiples. Whatever a couple completely agrees on should be kosher. Why all the judging?


Like many women I have a "thing" for men in uniforms, nothing to do with nakedness. MrH bought a police uniform for some sexy role play. Am I being unfaithful when I have sex with my gorgeous man in uniform?

Yes, what the couple agree is OK for them is all that matters.


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

MrsHolland said:


> Like many women I have a "thing" for men in uniforms, nothing to do with nakedness. MrH bought a police uniform for some sexy role play. Am I being unfaithful when I have sex with my gorgeous man in uniform?
> 
> Yes, what the couple agree is OK for them is all that matters.


Oh my god, that sounds so hot! And definitely not infidelity.

I have so many outfits, I have them in a separate wardrobe area. I'm definitely not being unfaithful to my gf, we are just enjoying the role playing. Same with you and Mr. H. 

Whatever a couple decides works for them should be beyond judging from others. If it works, it works.

p.s.
Did he have handcuffs?


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I don't think you are as shallow as this post would indicate?
> 
> So a spouse watching porn can, and often does, affect intimacy. A spouse having sex outside of their marriage can, and often does, affect intimacy....as well as betray marriage vows, risks STDs, paternity fraud, etc....
> 
> ...


If I look at other naked men to orgasm, how is that different than a man looking at other naked women to get off? Not getting it...I never said having SEX with other naked men is the same as a man looking at other naked women. But it would hurt me. In my mind, looking at other naked women to orgasm when you're married is hurtful to your wife, unless your wife says it isn't hurtful to her. Looking at other naked women online, in a strip club, and getting off to them is hurtful to many wives. I'm one of them 

ETA: I find sex talk highly stimulating. If I were to engage in sex talk online with another man to orgasm, that would probably be a betrayal to my husband. That's how I would feel if he were looking at another woman's naked body and getting off to her. So that's what I mean by turning to other men instead of my husband to meet what I consider an intimate need in marriage (sexual fulfillment).

I also want to add that I don't feel judgemental about how other people use porn. I find it hurtful and a betrayal of intimacy though if used with a person who is supposed to come to me to fulfill his sexual needs. That's my domain. But what others do and agree to in their own marriage is none of my business. I posted my research citing why I feel it is (or CAN be) hurtful to marriage, and they have nothing to do with religion, but every marriage is different and I realize that not everyone feels the way I (and many other women) do.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Hey, that OMGYes.com is great for everyone, but you really get into the whole what is porn question.

What about hystericalliterature.com for some fun.

But I have to say we have been literature buffs. I got my wife started on reading stories when I started dating her in 1973. My wife's favorite book is My Secret Garden. Her favorite author, of course, is Nancy Friday. 

We still run old wacky porn flicks for the fun of it, but they are for our mutual enjoyment, on a loop since they never last long, and we know the sex in them is just stupid.

I only posted again though, in this convoluted thread, because I had to say OMGYes.com is a great site, and I agree people really should see porn like that if people are going to call that porn.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Any pornographic movies or videos, or pics, I've watched or seen has been with my wife. She has watched the movies and videos with me. I know she has gotten off on some of the ideas sometimes. Was it the images? I don't know. I never asked. I never cared.

My wife has favorite X-rated movies which get her off every time she watches them. I find it odd the same movies still work to get her off every time she watches them even now after more than 25 years, (Edit: We have been married 43 years, but saw our first X-rated movie 25 years ago) but whatever. There are men in the movies. What exactly in the movies gets her off, I don't know. I don't care, either. I enjoy watching her get off.

I have my wife masturbate for me every day. We've found many different ways to get her excited. That's just one way. As I've said before she usually reads stories. The stories are about people having sex. Since I suspect people who read stories build mental images from the stories I could say she is seeing the guys in the stories. That never bothers me, either.

My wife has a nearly endless supply of orgasms. I get as much sex as I want, from my wife, any time I want it. It works well for me. I see no problem.

Another edit: My wife does masturbate sometimes while I am at work. She texts me about it afterwards to tell me she had been enjoying herself. I don't know what she may have used to help her enjoy herself, and again, I don't care. I know I will enjoy myself very much as soon as I get home from work.

Her fun in no way diminishes me. 

Another edit: I will note this is possibly not true if the roles were reversed, because in my opinion men cannot have the sexual capacity women can have.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's *lusting after another man's body?* I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


this is where so many women give free reign to their more neurotic thinking. I have seen much porn and I've never lusted after anyone in any porn, or erotic art I've ever seen. I can appreciate beauty without wanting to get naked with that person. This is true of everyone who watches porn. 

Have you seen and heard the vacuous women in porn? She may have great tits but do you honestly believe your husband watching her have sex is thinking he wishes he married her instead? Because that is just not at all close to true!

I read a lot of smut and it gets me hot. It's not that I want the "book boyfriend" in my bed, the erotic scenarios get me aroused. I am simply aroused, but not lusting after anyone pretend or otherwise. I just want to get laid!

So I reach over to my husband, who is generally watching TV, and I stroke him for a bit. He turns off the TV and says "good story?" And I say do me baby because that story was hot.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> To be clear, in no way am I advocating for stricter legislation/laws on porn. I'm a libertarian- live and let live. *But porn is shown to cause damage in marriage. That is a fact.* Use it at your discretion, but I agree- do not be ignorant of the fact that if you are married, it could impact the intimacy in marriage, as it is shown to do so.
> 
> And there are MANY sexual practices (hedonism) that have been a part of ancient cultures/civilaizations. Along with erotic literature and art in Ancient Rome, for example, was widespread prostitution. In no way do I believe that is healthy for modern marriage. *Because porn is now more readily available does not make it any less damaging to the intimacy in marriage- in fact, research shows it is actually more damaging due to on-demand instant access, not to mention availability and younger ages.*


What damage! When is this so called damage supposed to occur? is it in the first year, the third year, or is it supposed to happen after a decade or twenty years? Or will my wife and I have to wait at least half a century, for it to damage our marriage, or perhaps even longer?

In a few weeks time my wife and I will be celebrating our 18th wedding anniversary, while having shared lots of sex, through almost 21 years of being together. Where pornography has always been something that has been looked at throughout our relationship.

*Pornography Use*

From the earliest days of our relationship back in 1996, where I had a few VHS videos and a few extremely explicit and not always vanilla French, Danish and German porn mags. Through the late 90's where we got some French and Italian DVD's. Through to today where we sometimes watch mostly non-vanilla very explicit Czech, French, German and Italian amateur or professional porn with a smattering of Japanese stuff thrown in for some giggles as well.

While my wife also sometimes buys me erotic pin up art books (which she also likes) featuring Romain Hugault's Twitter/Amazon terrific illustration work. Or his other work that fits sex scenes with nudity into the graphic novels he illustrates as well.

I will look at porn alone or in bed with my wife (and often masturbate though not all the time) while viewing it a few days a week, through to occasionally every few weeks. My wife and I also share watching it together, every few weeks through to every a few months as something we enjoy before we have sex. While my wife sometimes, though infrequently looks at it on her own as well.

*Intimacy*

Exempting the times where we are sometimes away for work, a typical week for us is as follows below.

Where we share sex (with orgasm being the norm for both of us) 1-3x through weekdays (usually in the evening) and then share sex 3-6x during the weekend (morning, afternoon and or evenings) as well. We usually talk to each other for at least 2 hours in person on weeknights, talk to each other in the morning as well. Frequently talk to each other for about 10 minutes at lunchtime via phone.

While we also frequently spend our weekends together, where we usually go out somewhere for a day, often without the kids where we play and flirt and are a bit naughty and lewd with each other . We often shower together, sleep naked together, pee naked in the toilet when around each other (there's always privacy for the other requirement). In passing frequently fondle each other when no one can spot us doing it.

At the same time, we're happy to give each other space to read, post on TAM, catch up with friends, do craft in my wife's case, or to draw and paint nude men and (mostly) women for life drawing in my case.

We laugh, make fun of each other, eat out, watch music concerts, go to the theatre, watch films and even go shopping together. Likewise we share our work experiences, and use each other as sounding boards. And even talk about what's being discussed here on TAM as well.

We smile at each other, hold hands, my wife often clings onto my arm while we're out. Plus we both love kissing each other on the lips where we use lots of tongue.

So despite the warnings of relationship harm, pornography hasn't seen our wonderful intimacy wane.

*Background*

Incidentally when our relationship began, my wife had this idea that porn was bad. So when she saw that I had some, she told me she wasn't comfortable with it. While I told her that I was, then suggested that she should look at it some more and get over it. As a consequence of that she did look at it some more, found some of it quite titillating, decided it was fine and then got over it.

Likewise when we started together, many of my wife's friends were (still are) Christian wowser types (not all are wowsers) of differing denominations, while she had never in her life slept naked or looked at porn. All while she was very new to sex, having only recently lost her virginity a couple of months shy of being 26 with the only man she had been with biblically before me. Up till then then she had been saving herself for marriage, until she had decided that she was being ridiculous waiting (just after her father had died). Of the sex she had it was very limited, where she hadn't even tried giving oral sex and had never experienced an orgasm while sharing that sex.

From that beginning she has happily embraced nudity, porn and a smorgasbord of kinky sex. While also becoming considerably more daring in recent years when it comes to her sexuality while out and about with me. She also models for me so I can paint pictures of her nude and she happily poses for personal sex photos and the like as well.

For a while we were also on a popular Fetish sit as a couple, where we shared some of our own sexually explicit pornographic pictures (with identifying features and EXIF data being removed). In the end though we both found it all a bit boring, so we eventually cancelled our account since neither of us were using it.

*Reckoning*

Yet you and some others keep claiming that porn damages marital relationships. While my wife and I use and share that porn with no problems, all while having enjoyed a terrific relationship that has to date lasted almost 21 years.

By my reckoning and experience, pornography will only harm marital relationships, where marital partners take umbrage over it and or use it to the exclusion of their partner/s. While pornography will not harm marital relationships, where marital partners embrace it and do not use it to the exclusion of their partner/s.


*Is watching porn a form of (sexual) infidelity?*

No it isn't, and I also don't think solo masturbation is sexual infidelity either.

I also don't believe dreaming about having sex with others is sexual infidelity. Just as I don't think wanting to have sex with someone other than your partner/s is sexual infidelity. Likewise I don't think seeing or watching naked (or clothed) people or images of the same, where they are doing nothing in particular, all the way through to having sex is an act of sexual infidelity.

All of which is hardly a surprise since I don't buy into the idea, that sexual infidelity is a thing if it's just inside someone's head. Which all comes back to the fact that I don't care what people think, all I care about is what they do.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> this is where so many women give free reign to their more neurotic thinking. *I have seen much porn and I've never lusted after anyone in any porn*, or erotic art I've ever seen. I can appreciate beauty without wanting to get naked with that person. *This is true of everyone who watches porn*.
> 
> Have you seen and heard the vacuous women in porn? She may have great tits but do you honestly believe your husband watching her have sex is thinking he wishes he married her instead? Because that is just not at all close to true!
> 
> I read a lot of smut and it gets me hot. *It's not that I want the "book boyfriend" in my bed*, the erotic scenarios get me aroused. I am simply aroused, but not lusting after anyone pretend or otherwise. I just want to get laid!


I thought this was interesting, Anon. Because it doesn't match my experience. I have also seen and read a lot of porn and various forms of smut. But the people I'm looking at DO stir lust in me. They DO invade my fantasies and I end up finding them in my bed (albeit just in my mind). It is certainly not true of me that I don't lust after people in porn. I do lust for them and it feels great! I jill off to these images and thoughts, and I am definitely directly fantasizing about the porn stars and their amazing bodies. (yummm)

However, it does not feel great to me when I'm having sex with a partner and "others" pop into my head and invade our intimate space. So in a relationship, I find it is better for me to not watch porn unless doing it together with a partner. Somehow that helps diffuse the whole thing for me and although the porn stars may still end up in my bed through my head, it won't be as directly invasive as it would be if I was watching porn and jilling off to it regularly.

I assume my partners have definitely truly lusted after and wished to have actual sex with some of the women they've seen in porn. That to me has always seemed an obvious truth about men who watch porn. It doesn't mean they actually WOULD have sex with that woman in any given moment if the opportunity arose, it just means that they are extremely sexually attracted to the woman and certainly would want to sleep with her if whatever conditions the man could imagine would make it possible were to happen. (Doesn't mean he would cheat on his wife if a porn star came on to him, in other words, but if he was single and a porn star came on to him and he had a guilt free way to pull it off, then hell yes he'd sleep with her).

Men my whole life have explained to me how they constantly imagine having sex with every attractive woman they see. They didn't say they just pictured her naked and then used her image in the spank bank later...no they said they literally imagine sprawling the restaurant server out spread eagle on the table in front of them and diving into her. They said these fantasies are not something they choose, it just happens. The mind just naturally imagines sex with any attractive woman they see and yes, they felt lust and actual desire to have the sex (but again, doesn't mean they go outside of accepted behaviors, whatever that means to them).

Understanding this has helped me to understand myself, because I do some similar version of this sometimes, and when I was very young and uninhibited (in my mind anyway) I did it constantly and pervasively.

I eventually decided that I just didn't like how I felt about imagining having sex with everyone I found attractive. It felt invasive, even if they didn't know I was doing it. It felt sort of wrong, like I was demeaning people by quickly objectifying them in my mind's eye. I didn't feel that guilty or anything, I just didn't like a sort of squicky feeling it gave me. So I trained myself to stop doing this and at this point I can say it is no longer a habit of mine.

Though my mind will naturally go there on its own sometimes still, before I have a chance to reign it in. It seems like a natural inclination for my mind to go there.

I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say....do you feel lust for porn stars as you are watching it or later? If the opportunity was right and you were single would you have sex with a porn star who hit on you and would you be all lusty after him/her? Do you feel lust for others you see anywhere in public, or gorgeous beach babes for instance when you are vacationing? Do you imagine having sex with people you see in porn, or people you see anywhere? If you do imagine having sex with others, do you only do it while masturbating or also while having sex with your partner?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

introvert said:


> Oh my god, that sounds so hot! And definitely not infidelity.
> 
> I have so many outfits, I have them in a separate wardrobe area. I'm definitely not being unfaithful to my gf, we are just enjoying the role playing. Same with you and Mr. H.
> 
> ...


yes but I am more of a business tie (to the bedhead) kind of gal


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


MrH pretty much feels the same way I do about it all and TBH he would be very enthusiastic if he came home and caught me watching porn. If I was neglecting him for porn then he would be hurt.

Honestly he would be far more hurt by me lusting over another mans car


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


It doesn't bother me.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say....do you feel lust for porn stars as you are watching it or later? If the opportunity was right and you were single would you have sex with a porn star who hit on you and would you be all lusty after him/her? Do you feel lust for others you see anywhere in public, or gorgeous beach babes for instance when you are vacationing? Do you imagine having sex with people you see in porn, or people you see anywhere? If you do imagine having sex with others, do you only do it while masturbating or also while having sex with your partner?


If I find them sexually attractive I can feel lust for porn stars when watching them or seeing other people in public at the time. Since we have talked about this in the past, I can share that my wife also sometimes feels lust towards others on screen or out in public as well. To the point that my wife and I share common ground in only enjoying watching pornography that features people whom we find sexually appealing.

Yet absent seeing them on screen at other times in public etc, they don't intrude upon my conscience thoughts. That said when masturbating it varies a lot, if I am not looking at pornography I imagine having sex with my wife and or others. Whereas when I am looking at porn and solo masturbating, I often think of having sex with the person/s I am looking at on the screen/page etc. Or I instead also often think about having sex with my wife in the same way and doing the same things with her instead of the persons on screen.

Yet whenever I have sex with my wife, I have trouble trying to think of others besides her (I have tried to see if I can), since when I am with her in the moment (or anyone else for that matter in my experience). I feel consumed and absorbed with whoever I am with at that time and with whatever I am sharing with them. So I am very present with whoever my partners are, whenever I have sex.

The same applies when I watch porn with my wife as well, while just watching it I think of them and her, yet once we get started I just think about her or doing those things with her.

One other thing that sometimes happen as well, is my wife and I will sometimes remember some of our dreams where we seem to have a lot of sex in them.

For example my wife once woke up telling me she had this amazing and strange dream, where we were married yet she had sex with a number of men at the same time while knowing she was cheating on me. Where in her dream it felt natural to do, yet she felt bad about dreaming about cheating after the fact when she woke up. Yet explained to me that in the dream she had no regrets at all and thoroughly enjoyed herself.

Which is funny because I also have lots of dreams where I am sometimes married to my wife, or other women where I have sex with others or my wife or my wife and others, where sometimes she's my wife and sometimes she isn't. Like my wife I enjoy those dreams and feel not the slightest twang of guilt while having them and don't worry about them after the fact either.

The nice thing about such dreams though is when either of us wake up we sometimes compare notes, and tend to be very keen to share scratching that itch even further afterwards.

At the end of the day pornography amongst other things is a lot of fun for us, which is why we have both enjoyed using it over the years.

When my wife comes home and we have some time, I'll show her this discussion and ask her for some additional commentary on what she thinks and feels along the way.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> If I look at other naked men to orgasm, how is that different than a man looking at other naked women to get off? Not getting it...I never said having SEX with other naked men is the same as a man looking at other naked women. But it would hurt me. In my mind, looking at other naked women to orgasm when you're married is hurtful to your wife, unless your wife says it isn't hurtful to her. Looking at other naked women online, in a strip club, and getting off to them is hurtful to many wives. I'm one of them
> 
> ETA: I find sex talk highly stimulating. If I were to engage in sex talk online with another man to orgasm, that would probably be a betrayal to my husband. That's how I would feel if he were looking at another woman's naked body and getting off to her. So that's what I mean by turning to other men instead of my husband to meet what I consider an intimate need in marriage (sexual fulfillment).
> 
> I also want to add that I don't feel judgemental about how other people use porn. I find it hurtful and a betrayal of intimacy though if used with a person who is supposed to come to me to fulfill his sexual needs. That's my domain. But what others do and agree to in their own marriage is none of my business. I posted my research citing why I feel it is (or CAN be) hurtful to marriage, and they have nothing to do with religion, but every marriage is different and I realize that not everyone feels the way I (and many other women) do.


Thank you for elaborating. I felt I was getting the wrong idea from that post and this one confirms it.

I happen to agree with most of your thoughts here.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> Men my whole life have explained to me how they constantly imagine having sex with every attractive woman they see. They didn't say they just pictured her naked and then used her image in the spank bank later...no they said they literally imagine sprawling the restaurant server out spread eagle on the table in front of them and diving into her. They said these fantasies are not something they choose, it just happens. The mind just naturally imagines sex with any attractive woman they see and yes, they felt lust and actual desire to have the sex (but again, doesn't mean they go outside of accepted behaviors, whatever that means to them).


During my perimenopause years when my sex drive was uncontainable, I experienced this all the time. In meetings, at the store, anywhere I encountered a man who wasn't unattractive, (which is different from being attractive) I automatically imagined having sex with him right there and then. It not that I wanted to have sex with him, or even felt attracted to him, my mind just automatically pictured sex with him. I even found myself automatically checking out men's packages which embarrassed me because my eyes just went there. Now that full menopause has hit and my sex drive has slowed down to what I consider normal levels, I don't experience those automatic sex images...but sometimes it happens. 




> interested in hearing what others have to say....do you feel lust for porn stars as you are watching it or later? If the opportunity was right and you were single would you have sex with a porn star who hit on you and would you be all lusty after him/her? Do you feel lust for others you see anywhere in public, or gorgeous beach babes for instance when you are vacationing? Do you imagine having sex with people you see in porn, or people you see anywhere? If you do imagine having sex with others, do you only do it while masturbating or also while having sex with your partner?



What I imagine during jilly sessions are scenarios that turn me on not people or even body types. When porn or smut gets me hot, it's the scenarios and sometimes the positions that hit me, not the people. Imagined personality types also turn me on. Although I joke that I would drop everything to jump in bed with Daniel Craig, my mind also goes to the second part needed for an attraction to take root and that is his personality. All of my fantasies involve faceless lovers. I've never been able to put a face (other than my husband's) to a fantasy, even if I start out the fantasy with not my husband. I knew my marriage was in deep deep trouble when I couldn't force my husband's face or the impression it was him into any fantasy jilly session. Masturbation always centers around an erotic scenario.

You know what I just realized? Back in my 40's when I fantasize I always imagined that I was 25 in all of my fantasies. But when I hit 50 I stopped imagining myself as a 25 year old with a 25 year old body. I know imagine myself in my body the way it is today curvy and soft and feminine. Ha! I turn myself on!


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say....do you feel lust for porn stars as you are watching it or later? If the opportunity was right and you were single would you have sex with a porn star who hit on you and would you be all lusty after him/her? Do you feel lust for others you see anywhere in public, or gorgeous beach babes for instance when you are vacationing? Do you imagine having sex with people you see in porn, or people you see anywhere? If you do imagine having sex with others, do you only do it while masturbating or also while having sex with your partner?


I'm interested too in this question and curious to hear what others respond


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say....do you feel lust for porn stars as you are watching it or later? If the opportunity was right and you were single would you have sex with a porn star who hit on you and would you be all lusty after him/her? Do you feel lust for others you see anywhere in public, or gorgeous beach babes for instance when you are vacationing? Do you imagine having sex with people you see in porn, or people you see anywhere? If you do imagine having sex with others, do you only do it while masturbating or also while having sex with your partner?


May be a bit hypocritical, but I would not have interest in sex with a porn star. Honestly, the idea that they have been tossed around left and right, might have a gift that could keep on giving, etc... is completely unappealing to me (in the case I was in a situation with them).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Wouldn't bother me at all unless she was doing this and also turning me down for sex. I have no problem at all with fantasy as long as people recognize the difference between fantasy and reality. 





Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Porn for me is about the activities, not the people. Most often I fantasize about my wife doing things that I see in porn but that she is not wiling to do. 

I also find there are two different types of "lust":

Casual lust: The woman at the starbucks where I get coffee is really attractive to me. I could easily fantasize about sex with her. This is true of a number of women I've seen and a number of porn stars. They are good subjects for fantasy sex. At the same time I have no desire in real life to have sex with her or porn stars. Its just a sort of casual lust with no direction. I would have no difficulty politely turning down an offer of sex from them. 

Directed lust: There are women that given the opportunity and if I were not married I would really want for sex. These are women that I know well and really like. I hope not to ever act on it, but I would have to work very hard to turn down an offer from one of those women. 






Faithful Wife said:


> I thought this was interesting, Anon. Because it doesn't match my experience. I have also seen and read a lot of porn and various forms of smut. But the people I'm looking at DO stir lust in me. They DO invade my fantasies and I end up finding them in my bed (albeit just in my mind). It is certainly not true of me that I don't lust after people in porn. I do lust for them and it feels great! I jill off to these images and thoughts, and I am definitely directly fantasizing about the porn stars and their amazing bodies. (yummm)
> 
> However, it does not feel great to me when I'm having sex with a partner and "others" pop into my head and invade our intimate space. So in a relationship, I find it is better for me to not watch porn unless doing it together with a partner. Somehow that helps diffuse the whole thing for me and although the porn stars may still end up in my bed through my head, it won't be as directly invasive as it would be if I was watching porn and jilling off to it regularly.
> 
> ...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm glad to know that for those of you who do use porn, you don't have a double standard when it comes to your spouse. I remember dating a guy in college who commented on how "hot" an actress was in a movie when she was "playing with herself" and when my girlfriend and I started giving it back to him by exclaiming how "ripped and gorgeous" her male co-star was, he started to get upset.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> May be a bit hypocritical, but I would not have interest in sex with a porn star. Honestly, the idea that they have been tossed around left and right, might have a gift that could keep on giving, etc... is completely unappealing to me (in the case I was in a situation with them).


I understand this....but the question was really more about lust and attraction for others. What if she wasn't a porn star, just looked super hot and like she'd be DTF at any moment, she is hitting on you, you are single, etc......

I was just shocked that Anon was saying that the actual people in porn do not stir any lust or attraction in her. I really always assumed that the people (the way they look, what they do and say, etc) do cause lust in those who are watching. I'm still kind of confused by this.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


I'd be totally ok with that. It would only be a problem if it's a substitute for having sex with me, or if our sex life was inadequate. I think this is generally true: if porn interferes with having good sex with your spouse - assuming they want sex - then it's a problem. Otherwise, it's not.

Porn is just an aid to scratching an itch that you can't scratch at that moment by having sex with your spouse. And _occasionally_ it's just a means for a quick release when you aren't in the mood for sex with your spouse. I can achieve the same thing with my imagination - it's just a lot more work. Porn is an aid, just like a vibrator is an aid for many women - you're not lusting after the aid, it's just a means to an end.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I understand this....but the question was really more about lust and attraction for others. What if she wasn't a porn star, just looked super hot and like she'd be DTF at any moment, she is hitting on you, you are single, etc......


Tough call. Maybe I am not a good gauge, but I have never been a ONS or fling type of person, so regardless of how hot she looked or if she was DTF at that moment I would pass. For me, still too many questions about her past, STDs, etc... that would calm the blood flow downstairs and move it back into the head on my shoulders :grin2: Doesn't make me any better or worse then the person who would "jump" on the opportunity without a second thought, just seems to be how I am wired.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Porn is an aid, just like a vibrator is an aid for many women - you're not lusting after the aid, it's just a means to an end.


I don't see it as the same. A vibrator does not include another woman or man that I'm looking at and imagining having sex with. I use one and my husband got it for me- I fantasize about what I recently did with him or what he said when I use it. Likewise, he watches videos of the two of us when I'm not around.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Tough call. Maybe I am not a good gauge, but I have never been a ONS or fling type of person, so regardless of how hot she looked or if she was DTF at that moment I would pass. For me, still too many questions about her past, STDs, etc... that would calm the blood flow downstairs and move it back into the head on my shoulders :grin2: Doesn't make me any better or worse then the person who would "jump" on the opportunity without a second thought, just seems to be how I am wired.


That sounds accurate. I did nothing but hookups before meeting my wife and would have no problem bedding a porn star.

I think the wiring is key here.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I really always assumed that the people (the way they look, what they do and say, etc) do cause lust in those who are watching. I'm still kind of confused by this.


I can't speak for anyone else, but the _people_ in porn do not cause lust for me. It's the scenarios or acts that create arousal. Sure, many are very attractive, but I really don't remember what any of them look like once the video is ended. Just like a beautiful woman out in public who draws my attention does not inspire lust - just a brief appreciation.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


:grin2: I remember years and years ago the general advice on a parent forum was to reverse the tables and make sure you have hot young men with enormous cocks on our computers and phones. Just to make them see how hurtful it is. 

So that is what I did...but it just made him laugh. I remember he looked through my phone, found a naked pic and said something like 'I think he might be the best looking guy I have ever seen'. :grin2:

He really didn't care. 

He doesn't like me looking at fetish stuff or group sex. For some reason that bothers him, but not to the point of being upset or jealous, just a bit worried.


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Jessica38 said:
> 
> 
> > Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?
> ...


Some people use it this way. For me when I tried to see what porn was all about to try and understand it, when I watched it I was already aroused before so while I watched the men I didn't think they were hot, they had a nice face and a nice body but what heightened my arousal was just the act and seeing how they were feeling good doing it. After I turned it off I had no desire for them and didn't while watching it either. The images did stick in my head a little but not because I wanted them to just because I can visualize things I have seen. It can happen with grotesque images as well, they just stick


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I really always assumed that the people (the way they look, what they do and say, etc) do cause lust in those who are watching. I'm still kind of confused by this.
> ...


That's exactly how my partner describes it. He used it as an aid when he was aroused and I was not able to have sex. It hurt, but as I try to understand his thinking and seeing your comment right now it makes me see that some people do think this way. He notices attractive women but not in a lusty way and he doesn't gawk, he says it's just an appreciation usually when he sees a woman in good shape who takes care of herself, but he notices then that's it, it's forotten. He says he isn't the type who sees a woman and is blown away it's only happened twice for him so he says. He needs a connection. He has never had a ONS and doesn't see how pepole can. He is more like a woman in some of his thoughts, he likes post coital tenderness and talking and doesn't want to have sex unless I can be emotionally connected otherwise he feels used. It took awhile for me to get on board since I used sex for selfish reasons and I am barely starting to see it as real intimacy and the orgasm is not the focus where it used to be for me lol


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> I understand this....but the question was really more about lust and attraction for others. What if she wasn't a porn star, just looked super hot and like she'd be DTF at any moment, she is hitting on you, you are single, etc......
> 
> I was just shocked that Anon was saying that the actual people in porn do not stir any lust or attraction in her. I really always assumed that the people (the way they look, what they do and say, etc) do cause lust in those who are watching. I'm still kind of confused by this.


I watch porn and the actual people do not stir any lust or attraction in me (assuming that they're not physically repulsive).

It's what they're doing, not who they are.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


If I walked in and saw my wife getting aroused and excited looking at people having sex, that's totally cool.

If I walked in and saw my wife getting aroused and excited looking at a naked man by himself, not having sex, that would bother me a bit.

The first is about getting aroused by* sex*.

The second is about getting aroused by a *man* (other than me).


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I watch porn and the actual people do not stir any lust or attraction in me (assuming that they're not physically repulsive).
> 
> It's what they're doing, not who they are.


Let's not forget, the whole HD (as in hi def, not high drive) revolution is not necessarily great for porn lol.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think jealousy affects people differently. 

There was an Italian restaurant my wife and I used to go to and she commented that the waiter was really attractive. For a while when we were deciding where to go for dinner I'd just tease her a bit with "how about the Italian place with the really hot waiter". Sometimes we'd go. I'm well aware that I'm not the most attractive guy on earth, so I don't feel threatened that she finds someone else physically attractive. I"m not worried she is going to run off with every attractive guy she sees. 






peacem said:


> :grin2: I remember years and years ago the general advice on a parent forum was to reverse the tables and make sure you have hot young men with enormous cocks on our computers and phones. Just to make them see how hurtful it is.
> 
> So that is what I did...but it just made him laugh. I remember he looked through my phone, found a naked pic and said something like 'I think he might be the best looking guy I have ever seen'. :grin2:
> 
> ...


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I understand this....but the question was really more about lust and attraction for others. What if she wasn't a porn star, just looked super hot and like she'd be DTF at any moment, she is hitting on you, you are single, etc......
> ...


Question: do the women have to be at least average attractive with attractive bodies to watch? Do you find yourself looking for at least some what attractive women and you bypass the ones that aren't attractive at all? Just curious


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

For me it is not about how they look but their attitude and enthusiasm.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say....do you feel lust for porn stars as you are watching it or later? If the opportunity was right and you were single would you have sex with a porn star who hit on you and would you be all lusty after him/her? Do you feel lust for others you see anywhere in public, or gorgeous beach babes for instance when you are vacationing? Do you imagine having sex with people you see in porn, or people you see anywhere? If you do imagine having sex with others, do you only do it while masturbating or also while having sex with your partner?


Lust for a cute porn star as we are watching? Yes, I think so.

Even under the perfect circumstances I would not have had sex with any porn star. I have turned down some awesome opportunities with truly gorgeous babes who were not porn stars, so I am sure this is true. I would say no. I have an interest in biology, and a strong concern with avoiding disease. Sex workers have more than their share of issues with Sexually Transmitted Diseases. I understand life is full of risk, but I think that would be too much.

My wife and I did meet Nina Hartley at an event. She shook my hand. She shook my wife's hand. It was fun. Nina Hartley was there to sell VHS tapes, and we really weren't in the market to buy. It's a business. 

I certainly feel lust for other women. Some I work with. Some I meet along the way in life. I always imagine having sex with them. I wonder how responsive she would be when I stroke her clitoris. How tasty she would be as I eat her out. How hard she would spasm when she comes as I stroke into her. If my wife is with me I might whisper something to my wife about one of those things. My wife will laugh, and roll her beautiful blue eyes.

I think about having sex most of my waking hours. Certainly it is not just when having sex.

Sometimes my wife will suggest I talk about the other woman I mentioned during the day, while we are having sex, to add spice to our sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For me the women need to be moderately attractive, but then I find a lot of women to be attractive. Its not so much that I have low standards (I hope!), but that I recognize many different types of beauty. Interestingly I find traditional porn stars to usually be quite unattractive and never watch mainstream porn. They seem completely fake in appearance and behavior so it no more exciting than watching two robots have sex. 





Lizzyb said:


> Question: do the women have to be at least average attractive with attractive bodies to watch? Do you find yourself looking for at least some what attractive women and you bypass the ones that aren't attractive at all? Just curious


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

The women have to be attractive to me. But my standards are different than societal norms.

I do not like dress up, or fancy nails, or large breasts, or makeup.

Give me the girl next door, in sweats and tennis shoes. My wife is just like that. Sadly the only porn of any sort, even IShotMyself, IFeelMyself, AbbyWinters, and such, seems to be of only young girls who fit that description. While I like teens, I like a forty or fifty year old athletic woman even more. But that is so atypical it's very hard to find any films of such women.

So we only watch videos a few days a year.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> If I walked in and saw my wife getting aroused and excited looking at people having sex, that's totally cool.
> 
> If I walked in and saw my wife getting aroused and excited looking at a naked man by himself, not having sex, that would bother me a bit.
> 
> ...



Appreciating beauty isn't necessarily arousing and for me its never been arousing. I also like to look at puppies and babies, they don't arouse me either.





EllisRedding said:


> Let's not forget, the whole HD (as in hi def, not high drive) revolution is not necessarily great for porn lol.


But a boon for the make up industry.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lizzyb said:


> Question: do the women have to be at least average attractive with attractive bodies to watch? Do you find yourself looking for at least some what attractive women and you bypass the ones that aren't attractive at all? Just curious


The women (and the guys for that matter) can't be so unattractive that I feel the need to avert my eyes. 

That would kind of defeat the purpose :smile2:


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Lizzyb said:
> 
> 
> > Question: do the women have to be at least average attractive with attractive bodies to watch? Do you find yourself looking for at least some what attractive women and you bypass the ones that aren't attractive at all? Just curious
> ...


Hahaha yeah I guess you're right. I guess I should feel good that my partner picks women in porn who are less attractive than me. I think I would feel worse if they were drop dead gorgeous


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Lizzyb said:


> Hahaha yeah I guess you're right. I guess I should feel good that my partner picks women in porn who are less attractive than me. I think I would feel worse if they were drop dead gorgeous


 @Lizzyb I think this is something you are going to have to overcome (speaking as someone who felt exactly the same way).

If you could see ALL the porn your husband has viewed at some point you will see someone with better boobs, better rear, slimmer, younger, prettier, sexier...its the shop front, packaging, the thing that gets a person to 'click' onto the film and stay. Then the real allure moves to the acts, eroticism of what they are doing and natural arousal when looking at genitals. Something like striptease is a case in point - it is the teasing more than the good looks. 

When I go shopping..I want to buy from shops that advertise their goods with *good looking models*. Because its a fantasy. I wouldn't buy expensive face creams if the advertising model looked haggard, nor lingerie if the model wasn't sexy. I wouldn't go into a clothes shop if the model looked old because I don't want to be frumpy. I think porn is the same for men. 

Once your husband has ejaculated he has no interest in that woman - he may even have feelings of disgust. Chances are that when men view porn with drop dead gorgeous (unobtainable) women he is far less likely to flirt or have wandering eyes at work (or whatever). Its out of his system and its you that he cuddles up with at night. Hope that reassures you a little.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Jessica38 said:


> Also, I'm curious. For every husband here who says they look at porn, how would you feel if you walked in and your wife was getting aroused and excited looking at other naked men? Are you totally ok with that? If she's lusting after another man's body? I wonder if men would feel as hurt by that as many wives do. Maybe not?


I wouldn't, but that proves nothing.

Obviously if I walked in on her doing this regularly, and we still had sex only once a week, I'd have an issue with it. But it's not about her actually watching porn - it's about forgoing _me_ for porn. Or her vibrator(s), or the shower head, etc etc etc. Anytime something else takes the place of an intimate relationship with one's partner, that's an issue.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say....do you feel lust for porn stars as you are watching it or later? If the opportunity was right and you were single would you have sex with a porn star who hit on you and would you be all lusty after him/her? Do you feel lust for others you see anywhere in public, or gorgeous beach babes for instance when you are vacationing? Do you imagine having sex with people you see in porn, or people you see anywhere? If you do imagine having sex with others, do you only do it while masturbating or also while having sex with your partner?


I actually don't, and now that you've asked this question, I actually find it kind of weird that I don't! Like I should, or something, it would be logical.

But yeah, never. When I do watch porn and do what people do when they watch porn, I'm just watching it in the moment, not imagining myself being part of it, or involved. Once I'm done, that's it. Most of us men simply aren't that imaginative, or utilize fantasy for these purposes.

Any lust I may feel for somebody else (real life or on video) is purely visual stimulation, not imagining myself with them.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> If I walked in and saw my wife getting aroused and excited looking at people having sex, that's totally cool.
> 
> If I walked in and saw my wife getting aroused and excited looking at a naked man by himself, not having sex, that would bother me a bit.
> 
> ...


Interesting.

My ex wife (who forbade me from watching porn) had a folder of pictures of rock stars she thought were "hot" (mainly one guy...lol). Never bothered me. I thought it rather juvenile, as she was in her late 20's at the time, but it really only occurred to me later on that she was, uh, 'using' these images for other purposes.

I never called her on that, but it wouldn't have bothered me, TBH. Fairly tame, if you ask me, but then again, these weren't naked pictures, either. That said, if she was using these pictures for certain needs, it was clearly fantasy (ie. imagining herself with them) as opposed to visual stimulation (naked pictures).

In retrospect, and given your reply above, I'm not sure how I would have felt about that, now! Getting off to naked pictures of a random guy she happens to think is attractive vs. getting off to fully clothed pictures of somebody she may actually be fantasizing about, specifically (and repeatedly).


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Lizzyb said:


> Question: do the women have to be at least average attractive with attractive bodies to watch? Do you find yourself looking for at least some what attractive women and you bypass the ones that aren't attractive at all? Just curious


For me, they have to be, how do I put this? Not unattractive. It's about enthusiasm, what they're doing, and simply about whether it gets me excited or not.

I have a thing for women with hips and thighs and smaller breasts, but it's not necessary for my enjoyment (including IRL). I will probably gravitate to women that fit this general description more often than not while watching porn.

So to answer this question - yes. But I won't spend hours searching for videos of the 'perfect' woman.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

No


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Thundarr said:


> Is watching porn a form of infidelity? I say no. While infidelity is a form of betrayal and, for some couples, watching porn is also a form of betrayal, they are not forms of each other. I think there is such a consensus about the wrongness of infidelity that people want to compare other betrayals to it. So obviously someone who feels very betrayed by their spouse watching porn might compare it to infidelity and that makes perfect since but they are still two distinct types of betrayal ( or not depending on the couple).
> 
> From a symbolic stand point they are pretty similar though. My wife and I do not consider watching porn to be a terrible thing but there are couples out there with open relationships who equally do not consider having sex outside of their marriage to be a terrible thing. But I completely understand that some people consider their partner watching porn to be a betrayal up there with cheating. To each their own.


I agree it's a betrayal when the offending person says they won't and then they do. It's about honesty, being upfront and open. If you can't do that with the person you are supposed to be closest to then their is no trust


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> I'm glad to know that for those of you who do use porn, you don't have a double standard when it comes to your spouse. I remember dating a guy in college who commented on how "hot" an actress was in a movie when she was "playing with herself" and when my girlfriend and I started giving it back to him by exclaiming how "ripped and gorgeous" her male co-star was, he started to get upset.


This is interesting as I too could see myself getting upset as well if my girlfriends in college teased me about how attractive a male movie star was in a film. ...fast forward a few decades and my wife actually does tell me that she likes to go see movies just because she really enjoys how attractive the the male star is to her. She will tell me that if I want to get lucky later in the evening that I best choose "that movie." You know what, that does not bother me least bit at this point in life as I am confident that my wife loves me and I do not feel threatened by a movie star. 

Cause just like in porn, everything in Hollywood is also "fake" either with makeup, props or post production. I mean these guys have ripped six pack abs literally drawn onto them:


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

My husband and I plan to watch porn during the holidays, he will pick out a film that turns him on and I will show him a film that turns me on. 

Does that make us swingers? Or polyamorous?

Not really. Just a natural curiosity about our kinks and a cheeky peek into secret sexuality.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

peacem said:


> My husband and I plan to watch porn during the holidays, he will pick out a film that turns him on and I will show him a film that turns me on.
> 
> Does that make us swingers? Or polyamorous?
> 
> Not really. Just a natural curiosity about our kinks and a cheeky peek into secret sexuality.


I think it takes a great deal of maturity and self confidence to not feel threatened by a partner watching porn, as well as being open minded to see something that arouses your partner. 

Badsanta


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

badsanta said:


> I think it takes a great deal of maturity and self confidence to not feel threatened by a partner watching porn, as well as being open minded to see something that arouses your partner.
> 
> Badsanta


Except I don't see it as a lack of self-confidence or not being open-minded to want sexual exclusivity with your spouse. I made vows to forsake all others. Like I said, I'm highly aroused by sex talk- I think it's a matter of respect in my marriage to not engage in sex talk with anyone other than my spouse. 

If your spouse doesn't feel it's an issue, that's different. But I do, and I am not lacking because I feel that way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I think it takes a great deal of maturity and self confidence to not feel threatened by a partner watching porn, as well as being open minded to see something that arouses your partner.
> 
> Badsanta


I think it takes a great deal of maturity to go against the flow and not look at porn. I have so much respect for men who are different in this way. 
Its not about being threatened, its about treating your spouse with respect. Forsaking all others, being faithful in mind as well as body.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> Except I don't see it as a lack of self-confidence or not being open-minded to want sexual exclusivity with your spouse. I made vows to forsake all others. Like I said, I'm highly aroused by sex talk- I think it's a matter of respect in my marriage to not engage in sex talk with anyone other than my spouse.
> 
> If your spouse doesn't feel it's an issue, that's different. But I do, and I am not lacking because I feel that way.


Agreed. My husband is the only one I intend to see naked and have sexual thoughts about. 
I don't see it as lacking in anyway, only gaining. My desire for my husband is far greater because he refuses to look at porn and because of the way he treats me. I love a man who is faithful in this way.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> My desire for my husband is far greater because he refuses to look at porn and because of the way he treats me. I love a man who is faithful in this way.


Me too- I find it VERY sexy :smile2: I love knowing that I'm the only woman in the world who he turns to for sexual pleasure.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I think the best thing is if two people who actually agree with each other end up married to each other. I always hope two people married to each other have great sex with each other.

But wow, I sure can't see how disagreement over porn between people who aren't married to each other means anything, really. It sure has nothing to do with self confidence! And open-mindedness? Maybe the closed minds are the ones who refuse to see the damage to the lives of the actresses who just turned 18 and are being drawn away from their colleges and families by the lure of dollars, to be tossed on the trash heap in a few months time, tarnished and abandoned.

All of that is far afield from the original poll, though.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

If watching porn is infidelity, then so is masturbation since the only difference is images in our heads rather than on the screen. If masturbation is infidelity then most humans are engaging in infidelity a few times a week.

I have always posed the question if sending sexy nude pictures of yourself to a guy different than posing nude for him in the flesh? There is little difference between the behavior and intent. Either way the other guy sees your wife naked and posing in suggestive ways. 

My wife and I do not consider sex with others as infidelity since our marriage is not based on monogamy. Therefore porn and anything else is not considered infidelity. Deceiving and lying is considered infidelity to us. As long as we are open with each other and will end any behavior or relationship that the other is uncomfortable with, sex in any form is not infidelity. For us marriage is not about a legal obligation and sexual exclusivity, but a spiritual connection that we want to spend the rest of our lives together, and hold each other and our marriage above all else. This has worked for us over 44 years. Funny how many of the Marriage Police view us with disdain while half of them are ending up divorced.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Jessica38 said:


> Me too- I find it VERY sexy :smile2: I love knowing that I'm the only woman in the world who he turns to for sexual pleasure.


Yep. It makes me feel very special and respected and loved. :smile2:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I think it takes a great deal of maturity and self confidence to not feel threatened by a partner watching porn, as well as being open minded to see something that arouses your partner.
> 
> Badsanta






Jessica38 said:


> Except I don't see it as a lack of self-confidence or not being open-minded to want sexual exclusivity with your spouse. I made vows to forsake all others. Like I said, I'm highly aroused by sex talk- I think it's a matter of respect in my marriage to not engage in sex talk with anyone other than my spouse.
> 
> If your spouse doesn't feel it's an issue, that's different. But I do, and I am not lacking because I feel that way.






Diana7 said:


> I think it takes a great deal of maturity to go against the flow and not look at porn. I have so much respect for men who are different in this way.
> Its not about being threatened, its about treating your spouse with respect. Forsaking all others, being faithful in mind as well as body.


 @Jessica38 and @Diana7 in the context of my marriage I had a preexisting condition of many years of watching porn. My wife is very against porn, but she did make it a point to sit down with me one day and watch it. The purpose of this was to help me let go of my shame and help her understand me. By doing this it helped me let go of my compulsive behaviors that triggered me to watch porn, so now I do not have anywhere near the same desire to watch it as I used to (although I admit the underlying temptation is still there). 

Since my wife chose to watch it with me knowing that she is against it, actually makes me have more respect for her! I do NOT see this as her forsaking me by watching it with me under these circumstances, but more her trying to better understand me and help me feel loved. She also conveyed her views to me as to why she has problems with porn as we watched it in way way not to judge me, but to simply explain herself to me. For us, it really helped us understand one another better. I have always appreciated that my wife took that step to do that with me! 

I understand that you are talking more about a man that actively chooses NOT to watch porn to honor his vows, but I just wanted to point out that people that do not like porn can choose TO watch it for reasons just as morally admirable. Because in my opinion if one spouse has issues with porn, they BOTH need to help each other understand one another in order to help each other work through those issues. 

So @Jessica38 and @Diana7 if neither of you have ever sat down with your partners and said, "OK can you please show me what porn you watch and explain to me why you enjoy it" it is an experience that could be an eye opener in better understanding what triggers your partner to enjoy porn and how to help them with it by removing their shame. If you just happen to have partners that have NEVER watch porn and do NOT have these issues, try to be a little open minded for the couples that do struggle to better understand and love one another by removing the shame and pain associated with this topic.

When I first corresponded with @peacem she was ready to leave her husband and felt disgusted by his hidden use of porn. The two of them have worked through it and for them they have perhaps discovered that it helps them communicate with one another. It is also important to note at this time that some people with autism (yes autism!) have trouble communicating socially, may suffer from being able to understand a spouse sexually in ways other than mostly analytically. Perhaps both myself and peacem's husband fit into this category. 

People with autism can be extremely sensitive to stimulus in the environment such as bright light or simply being touched (grabbing their arm and pulling them somewhere as to go out) can be experienced as very painful. Most often those with autism develop heightened sensitivity to their genitalia that can cause common sensations to be painful.

In the past I struggled to understood why most men enjoy oral sex as I find it to be rather painful and really struggle to enjoy it. I find it to be way overstimulating to the point that it is painful. While watching porn I noticed that I found myself enjoying content where oral stimulation is minimal as if just to tease. So I could show my wife a video of deep throat and explain to her that I find that repulsive. But I could show her a video where oral sex was minimal and explain that I was drawn to that technique and curious to experience it. So now my wife clearly understands what I like if she gives me oral sex, and I was able to show her this before I understood that I struggled with elements of autism by communicating it with porn. 

Anyway... I still enjoy learning how others such as yourself view porn as it helps me with my struggles to better appreciate other's views such as my own wife. So thanks for sharing. I also hope by sharing my own struggles that it helps you to better understand other people and couples and realize that their issues may require more creative and open minded attitudes to help each other feel loved.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> @Jessica38 and @Diana7 in the context of my marriage I had a preexisting condition of many years of watching porn. My wife is very against porn, but she did make it a point to sit down with me one day and watch it. The purpose of this was to help me let go of my shame and help her understand me. By doing this it helped me let go of my compulsive behaviors that triggered me to watch porn, so now I do not have anywhere near the same desire to watch it as I used to (although I admit the underlying temptation is still there).
> 
> Since my wife chose to watch it with me knowing that she is against it, actually makes me have more respect for her! I do NOT see this as her forsaking me by watching it with me under these circumstances, but more her trying to better understand me and help me feel loved. She also conveyed her views to me as to why she has problems with porn as we watched it in way way not to judge me, but to simply explain herself to me. For us, it really helped us understand one another better. I have always appreciated that my wife took that step to do that with me!
> 
> ...


Badsanta, thank you for your explanation. I guess that your wife married you knowing that you were a porn user so couldn't really make a fuss when you carried on. I wouldn't marry a man who was a porn user,or who thought it was ok to do this to his wife, that's the difference. Its a no no for me. Fortunately I have a husband who thinks the same way as I do about this. 

What you said is a little like a man who keeps stealing. His wife says ok, I will steal as well to better understand why you do it. Or a man who keeps getting drunk. OK I will get drunk to better understand why you do it. 
In that situation me looking at porn wouldnt be the answer. He could tell me why he does it, I wouldn't need to watch it myself and to me it would be adding to the problem.

If I was married to a man who looked at porn it would deeply affect and damage our sex life. In fact I wouldn't want sex with him. Because my husband is so clear on keeping his eyes for me alone, it makes sex with him so much more enjoyable and inviting. I want to have sex with him more because I know that I am his one and only. It makes me feel special. He is forsaking all others as he promised. I would far rather be single than with a porn user. 

A lady I know eventually gave her husband and ultimatum, me or the porn. She meant it and he knew that. Guess what, he stopped immediately. Its amazing what we can do if we have to. All those years he said he would stop and didn't, and once he knew what he would loose he did it. 

I think that too many women enable their husbands porn use by not giving them any consequences to their actions. 

I remember when my first 2 children were small I gave up smoking. I didn't want them to be breathing in smoke all day as well as all evening and weekends when my husband was home. It wasn't easy to give up because my then husband still smoked, BUT I did it for the children's sakes. If a husband isn't prepared to stop porn use that is hurting his wife, something is wrong.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@badsanta, I understand that you and your wife enjoy porn together and I think that's fine! Like Diana said, she married you knowing that you use porn. I didn't. My husband wasn't into it...it was one of the most attractive things about him to me. He told me he'd rather have a girlfriend than use porn. Even then as a single guy, he saw it as a choice. And if we ever talked about porn, he'd always say "Why would I need that? I have my very own sexy woman to look at!" And he means it. It has never been an issue in our marriage, or even before. We made our own sex video for each other because he said it excited him to watch us if I wasn't available. 

That's just us. It means a lot to me. And my closest girlfriends feel the same. We want our men to look at US, not other naked women.


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## Tiggy! (Sep 9, 2016)

I don't see it as infidelity (maybe if porn is ruining a couples sex life it leans closer to infidelity).
Potentially it could be cheating.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There may be three very different situations being discussed. 

Some men watch porn rather than be with their willing partners. 

Some men and women watch porn in addition to an active sex life with willing partners.

Some men watch porn because their partners aren't willing. 


I can completely understand not wanting to have your partner go somewhere else for sex instead of to you. 

What I don't understand is the people who constantly turn their partners down for sex, and then are unhappy when those partners turn to porn. 






Jessica38 said:


> @badsanta, I understand that you and your wife enjoy porn together and I think that's fine! Like Diana said, she married you knowing that you use porn. I didn't. My husband wasn't into it...it was one of the most attractive things about him to me. He told me he'd rather have a girlfriend than use porn. Even then as a single guy, he saw it as a choice. And if we ever talked about porn, he'd always say "Why would I need that? I have my very own sexy woman to look at!" And he means it. It has never been an issue in our marriage, or even before. We made our own sex video for each other because he said it excited him to watch us if I wasn't available.
> 
> That's just us. It means a lot to me. And my closest girlfriends feel the same. We want our men to look at US, not other naked women.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> There may be three very different situations being discussed.
> 
> Some men watch porn rather than be with their willing partners.
> 
> ...


I get that. However, I'd still prefer my partner come to me to work out those issues instead of turning to other naked women for sexual fulfillment. My friend separated from her husband for this exact reason- after their third baby, sex significantly decreased. He was unhappy and began frequenting strip clubs. It caused a lot of pain and they ended up in therapy to reconcile. Had he gone to her in the first place and said, "I'm unhappy. We need to get help," they could have avoided almost a year's worth of pain to the entire family that was caused during their separation.

Another issue: My friend's husband was frequently drinking after work. It caused problems in the marriage. He'd come home and try to have sex with her. She rejected him because she was repulsed by his drinking and the alcohol on his breath. She stubbed her toe on a stack of porn mags under the bed and told him "Either they go, or I go." He got rid of them and stopped hanging out with co-workers after work to drink. Things improved.

To improve sex in marriage it takes work. Turning to porn is often an easier solution for some men (and women too, though some turn more to attention from other men online when they feel neglected). It takes communication and emotional intelligence. Sometimes it even takes counseling, including sex therapy. It's not easy, convenient, or cheap. In today's online on-demand world, porn is all 3.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree that people should try to fix things with their partners first. 

Unfortunately sometimes that doesn't work. I did at one point tell my wife what I would like and asked if there was anything I could do that would make her more interested. Basically got a "no", and "no". That she was happy with everything about me except that I was very spoiled about sex and was like a kid who thought that they should always be able to eat dessert. (this to my request of sex on average twice a week)





Jessica38 said:


> I get that. However, I'd still prefer my partner come to me to work out those issues instead of turning to other naked women for sexual fulfillment. My friend separated from her husband for this exact reason- after their third baby, sex significantly decreased. He was unhappy and began frequenting strip clubs. It caused a lot of pain and they ended up in therapy to reconcile. Had he gone to her in the first place and said, "I'm unhappy. We need to get help," they could have avoided almost a year's worth of pain to the entire family that was caused during their separation.
> 
> Another issue: My friend's husband was frequently drinking after work. It caused problems in the marriage. He'd come home and try to have sex with her. She rejected him because she was repulsed by his drinking and the alcohol on his breath. She stubbed her toe on a stack of porn mags under the bed and told him "Either they go, or I go." He got rid of them and stopped hanging out with co-workers after work to drink. Things improved.
> 
> To improve sex in marriage it takes work. Turning to porn is often an easier solution for some men (and women too, though some turn more to attention from other men online when they feel neglected). It takes communication and emotional intelligence. Sometimes it even takes counseling, including sex therapy. It's not easy, convenient, or cheap. In today's online on-demand world, porn is all 3.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I agree that people should try to fix things with their partners first.
> 
> Unfortunately sometimes that doesn't work. I did at one point tell my wife what I would like and asked if there was anything I could do that would make her more interested. Basically got a "no", and "no". That she was happy with everything about me except that I was very spoiled about sex and was like a kid who thought that they should always be able to eat dessert. (this to my request of sex on average twice a week)


I understand. That must be hard. In your situation, it really does sounds like you're on your own. Sex twice a week is in no way unreasonable. 

Have you had the "This is not working for me" conversation? I think in marriage, we have to be willing to work on things out of love for our spouse. If I were you, I'd schedule an appointment with a sex therapist to find out what her issue is. In a healthy marriage, a request for sex twice a week is totally reasonable. 

*In no way am I saying you should or shouldn't use porn if that's what you've decided to do to be happy. I'm asking about the sex therapist because I do think there's an issue there if your wife is telling you that you're being unreasonable when you're not. It reads to me like borderline contempt.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> I think in marriage, we have to be willing to work on things out of love for our spouse. If I were you, I'd schedule an appointment with a sex therapist to find out what her issue is. In a healthy marriage, a request for sex twice a week is totally reasonable.


Does not always work. Had the conversation. 8 years of marriage counselling. Several licensed sex therapists. Still had trouble getting frequency anywhere close to once a month much less once or twice a week. At that point I could divorce or I could stay and masturbate. My wife trying to dictate who I fantasize about or what images I view when I masturbate would not be given any credence. She had her chance to be the focus of all my sexual urges. She did not want to be the focus of any of them. Well, she wanted to be the focus of them but she did not want to have to do anything about them. Doesn't work that way.

I would totally understand if she said she was going to divorce me over my looking at porn, thinking of other women while I masturbate, etc. At this point I wouldn't stop doing it, but I would understand why it bothered her. Would I have stopped back when we were having sex if she had offered to compromise frequency with me? Heck yeah.

The funny part? These days I don't feel guilty at all about fantasizing about other women while I masturbate. You know who I DO feel guilty fantasizing about? My wife. See, I don't know the other women. For all I know, they like being sex objects. Unlikely, but possible. But I know to a moral certainty that my wife does NOT like being the focus of my sexual desire. So it feels like a violation of her privacy if I fantasize about her. I feel like I am groping her without her permission. Because I know she doesn't want me to do the things I am fantasizing about. At least she doesn't want to do them with me. So I respect her feelings, and I don't fantasize about her. Ironic, huh? I believe I am respecting her more by fantasizing about other women than if I fantasized about her.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@Holdingontoit, I mean your wife should be willing to work on the issue of her LD with a sex therapist with you. Not that it's solely on the spouse with the higher and totally reasonable drive to work on it themselves. Out of care for you and the marriage, your wife needs to get to the bottom of her issue with having a totally reasonable sex life in her marriage. Her issues may have to do with you and/or the marriage....or not. But either way, it's something that requires invesitgation, because her husband is unhappy with the level of sex in the marriage, and that's her issue too.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> @Holdingontoit, I mean your wife should be willing to work on the issue of her LD with a sex therapist with you.


There is no "should" in life or marriage. There is just what each partner is willing to do.

I understood you the first time. The issue in our marriage is that my wife does not find me sexually attractive, does not enjoy having sex with me, and there is nothing I can do about it. i tried diet, exercise, got promotions and raises at work, took her on dates, helped with the kids. Nothing mattered.

We went to a sex therapist (more than one). Each therapist gave us exercises to do at home. Hugs with clothes on. Stare at each other naked, but no touching. Massages but no touching "tingly bits". My wife did none of them.

Yes, our marriage would be stronger and I would cherish my wife more if she worked on whatever is blocking her connection to her sexuality. She won't. I could divorce her. Many people here would say I would be justified if I did. But the fact that you or I think she "should" get therapy to deal with her sexual aversion (to me) is irrelevant. She refuses to do so.

Look, I understand the dynamic. Two main issues at play. One, she was raped. She never got help for the fallout. She does not want to get help now, because that would mean admitting she was "broken". And she refuses to admit there is anything wrong with her. Understandable. But unhelpful. Second, she does not find me physically attractive. She refuses to admit that, because that would mean she lied to me from the beginning (no, I have not gone to pot in the interim, and the lack of sex started literally on our wedding night). Again - understandable. But unhelpful.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

I swear there are so many folks on TAM that are so uptight, that if you shoved a lump of coal up their ass, in 2 weeks, they would have a diamond.

Sheesh!!!!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> There is no "should" in life or marriage. There is just what each partner is willing to do.
> 
> I respectfully disagree. I expect my spouse to care enough for me to want meet my needs (as much as he is able). I do believe that in marriage, we should care about our spouses enough to want to meet their needs as much as possible. This is not my word- this is what I've learned from Dr. Harley in Marriage Builders when struggling with something in my own marriage and it really helped me. I completely understand that your experience is different and you have been to therapists who may feel differently.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

One of the many forms of what gets lumped together as "LD" are people who do not think sex is important and that their partners are the ones who have a problem with wanting too much sex. (can be either gender).

Someone who doesn't think sex is important will not want to go to any effort to improve things, and will be convinced that their partners are unreasonable. This (moving back on topic) includes thinking that their partner's interest in porn is unreasonable. To this particular type of LD, "normal" people just don't have much interest in sex. 

My wife enjoys sex when it happens, its not not *important*. I remember on an anniversary trip to Venice she didn't want to spend any time in the room (a 15th century palace on the grand canal) having sex because we could do that "any time", she wanted to explore the city. 


Other people lumped into "LD" can have completely different views. Some think of sex as important but just don't enjoy it, or don't want it often. Others aren't really LD, but are with partners whose behavior drives them away (for good of bad reasons).

That often translates to views on porn. Some women are happy with the idea that if they turn down their partners, those partners are free to masturbate to porn. Others think that sex is *bad* and so there is not excuse for watching porn. 






Jessica38 said:


> I understand. That must be hard. In your situation, it really does sounds like you're on your own. Sex twice a week is in no way unreasonable.
> 
> Have you had the "This is not working for me" conversation? I think in marriage, we have to be willing to work on things out of love for our spouse. If I were you, I'd schedule an appointment with a sex therapist to find out what her issue is. In a healthy marriage, a request for sex twice a week is totally reasonable.
> 
> *In no way am I saying you should or shouldn't use porn if that's what you've decided to do to be happy. I'm asking about the sex therapist because I do think there's an issue there if your wife is telling you that you're being unreasonable when you're not. It reads to me like borderline contempt.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> One of the many forms of what gets lumped together as "LD" are people who do not think sex is important and that their partners are the ones who have a problem with wanting too much sex. (can be either gender).
> 
> Someone who doesn't think sex is important will not want to go to any effort to improve things, and will be convinced that their partners are unreasonable. This (moving back on topic) includes thinking that their partner's interest in porn is unreasonable. To this particular type of LD, "normal" people just don't have much interest in sex.
> 
> ...


That makes sense. If my partner thought sex is bad, I'd want to get us into sex therapy to find out why he felt that way. I can see how an LD spouse would be happy for their partner to use porn for relief. 

Thanks for explaining that to me. I'm learning a lot from you all.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WOW!

I cannot fathom the mindset of the men who posted about their wives attitudes towards sex!

I guess there are definite advantages to being somewhat "uncivilized" when it comes to passionate sex.

I am so glad I am not nice enough, sensitive enough or civilized enough to stop myself from knocking the grey matter right out of my wife on a regular basis.

Ugh....


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

How are you suggesting men act towards women who don't want sex with them? I'm not talking about women who don't initiate but giggle when you throw them over you shoulder and carry them off to bed. I mean women who say "I'm feeling poorly tonight and don't want sex". 








ConanHub said:


> WOW!
> 
> I cannot fathom the mindset of the men who posted about their wives attitudes towards sex!
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Jessica38: I participated on the MB forums from 2002 to 2011. H2 and I worked with a Harley-trained counselor from 2003 to 2005. Made no difference. H2 was not willing to meet my ENs not matter how much I eliminated Love Busters and met her ENs. Sometimes you are simply not compatible.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> How are you suggesting men act towards women who don't want sex with them? I'm not talking about women who don't initiate but giggle when you throw them over you shoulder and carry them off to bed. I mean women who say "I'm feeling poorly tonight and don't want sex".


I'm not sure my suggestions about how men should act would benefit you.

I have a nature that isn't questioned.

I have always been sexual and never lacked enthusiasm from women.

When I met my wife, I had been freshly "raped" by a female roommate and the future Mrs. Conan had sex with me within 8 hours of meeting me and agreeing to a date.

We then had sex between 30-50 times in the first week and have been going strong for 25 years with a hiccup or two along the way.

My wife knew going into a relationship with me that it was going to be extremely sexual and, honestly, that was all she was after at first.

I have always been who I am unapologetically and with boldness.

My foundation has been established and built upon for 25 years.

We currently have sex almost every day and sometimes more than once a day.

I would not be married to your wife or possibly, more accurately, she would not be married to me.

If she had expressed interest in me and I was smitten like I was with Mrs. Conan, she would have been screwed silly the first week of knowing me and would have had to run for the border to escape my onslaught.

I'm not sure how your relationship started and I have also experienced sexual assault and have been with many women who have as well. We still like sex.

You would need to alter your personal dynamic and encourage your wife to fall for who you are becoming to change your situation now.

Nothing less than foundational reformation would probably work for you.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are people who simply don't want much sex. My wife's lack if interest in sex really has nothing to do with me. She has not had interest in other men, and other women have been interested in me. 

If marriage were only about sex I wouldn't have married her, but its not, there are lots of other important things as well. 





ConanHub said:


> I'm not sure my suggestions about how men should act would benefit you.
> 
> I have a nature that isn't questioned.
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'm not sure my suggestions about how men should act would benefit you.
> 
> I have a nature that isn't questioned.
> 
> ...


To be fair, your position isn't entirely unassailable.

Your story sounds similar to mine - I have always been very sexual, and have had numerous very enthusiastic sexual partners who wasted no time jumping into bed with me.

My wife was one of those very enthusiastic sexual partners. At first. She seduced me, we had sex immediately, and we spent an inordinate amount of time in bed for the first year. Multiple times a day, days on end.

After a couple years, things toned down a bit, though it was still enthusiastic as ever and more than enough to keep my happy (I can always have more, but I understand that we all probably have other things we need to do in life, lol). 

After marriage, we settled into a fun and solid 'routine' - great (not hot crazy monkey sex anymore, but still great) sex, four or five times a week. I was perfectly content.

About thirteen years in, things started to go downhill. Two or three times a week, arguments over 'tonight' or 'tomorrow morning', whatever. We started fighting about sex for the first time.

Things had dropped off so badly that, when we decided to start a family, after a couple months I finally said, "You realize that if you want to have a kid, you need to start having a lot more sex, right?"

She did, and got pregnant immediately. :smh:

It's been pretty much sexless ever since. Over six years now. Never in a million years did I think I'd end up in this situation. Really a hard pill to swallow...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> There are people who simply don't want much sex. My wife's lack if interest in sex really has nothing to do with me. She has not had interest in other men, and other women have been interested in me.
> 
> If marriage were only about sex I wouldn't have married her, but its not, there are lots of other important things as well.


And you have just confirmed my post that you quoted.

I am foundationally different from you.

Sex isn't just important to me, it is an integral part of who I am.

If your wife is a woman that wants marriage with a very low amount of sex, she would have been wasting her time going after a person like me.

I'm sure that if there were women in my sphere that were averse to having sex often, they didn't approach me or show interest.

There were far too many women who do like sex often for me to notice.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> To be fair, your position isn't entirely unassailable.
> 
> Your story sounds similar to mine - I have always been very sexual, and have had numerous very enthusiastic sexual partners who wasted no time jumping into bed with me.
> 
> ...


Very sorry to hear that.

Mrs. Conan already had a child when I met her and got pregnant within the 4th year of our relationship but that could be an unimportant detail.

I don't think that sexual frequency is the core issue that is different with our situations.

I still would not have stood for the situation you find yourself in.

If Mrs. Conan even decided today that sex was rarely going to be on the menu or taken off the menu, I would be taken off her menu as well.

Remember the hiccups? We had some issues to work around and we did.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a matter of different priorities. I'd like an excellent sex life but I'd like other things too. 

I have a wife who knows the difference between the Lydians and Lycians, between deflagration and detonation, and who likes to hike in jungles and on glaciers, and who's jumped off kilometer-high cliffs in a parasail, and happens to also be rich and beautiful. I can also trust her completely and I'm convinced that she loves me. 

I wish she enjoyed wild passionate sex as well, but I can't have everything. 




ConanHub said:


> And you have just confirmed my post that you quoted.
> 
> I am foundationally different from you.
> 
> ...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Its a matter of different priorities. I'd like an excellent sex life but I'd like other things too.
> 
> I have a wife who knows the difference between the Lydians and Lycians, between deflagration and detonation, and who likes to hike in jungles and on glaciers, and who's jumped off kilometer-high cliffs in a parasail, and happens to also be rich and beautiful. I can also trust her completely and I'm convinced that she loves me.
> 
> I wish she enjoyed wild passionate sex as well, but I can't have everything.


She would make a very good friend for me but no more and I'm sure she would feel the same.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

True. 
But would I trade those things for great sex? 




ConanHub said:


> She would make a very good friend for me but no more and I'm sure she would feel the same.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

D


uhtred said:


> True.
> But would I trade those things for great sex?


Definitely your call.

I'm very HD and a marriage to the most amazing woman that ever breathed with little to no sex would never work for either of us.

My wife isn't rich, is very cute, is in incredible shape, does all activities with me, loves me at an amazing level, is loyal and I do trust her.

She makes me laugh hard and often.

If she wasn't also an accomplished bedroom gymnast that liked performing almost every day, it just wouldn't work for me.

I'm convinced people can increase their libido if they want to work on it.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Conan, what would you do if your wife were not able to have sex anymore?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Very sorry to hear that.
> 
> Mrs. Conan already had a child when I met her and got pregnant within the 4th year of our relationship but that could be an unimportant detail.
> 
> ...


Well, two things -

One, I'm sure I could force/coerce some duty sex, but I'm not that into duty sex, so I don't want to burn capital to that end. 

Secondly, I've run the numbers numerous times. I could blow up and decimate my life (and, more importantly, the life of my son, whom I've sworn to protect from harm more times than I can count), leaving everyone with whole new problems and pain, on the *chance* that I might be able to achieve a rich and satisfying sex life again (and by no means would that be certain, and I would even say the odds don't look good), but the results of that particular cost/benefit analysis have never been positive enough to prompt me to leave.

Everyone has to run the numbers for themselves.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Conan, what would you do if your wife were not able to have sex anymore?


Give me a real life scenario and I will give you an answer.:smile2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Give me a real life scenario and I will give you an answer.:smile2:


Some kind of illness, either physical like cancer, or mental like Alzheimer's.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Well, two things -
> 
> One, I'm sure I could force/coerce some duty sex, but I'm not that into duty sex, so I don't want to burn capital to that end.
> 
> ...


Another fundamental difference.

I don't run numbers when it comes to marriage.

I find your point of view interesting.

You are taking responsibility for the pain of decimating your life?

I would say that responsibility falls squarely on the very selfish shoulders of your wife.

You, apparently, didn't sign up for a sexless marriage. She didn't appear to either.

For whatever reasons, she decided, without discussing it with you, to turn you into a eunuch roommate/provider companion and remove your status as husband.

She is destroying your marriage quite well all on her own.

I would make her own it.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

jld said:


> Some kind of illness, either physical like cancer, or mental like Alzheimer's.


Physical: I would do everything possible, as far as restrictions allow, to have some form of sexual intimacy with her as she loves the closeness of the act, not just the pleasure and pray my ass off and do everything in my power to make life good for her and, if possible, get her better.

Mental: If at all possible, I would still have sex with her and take the best care of her as I can while praying my ass off again for her recovery.

Now. There is a critical difference, to me, between can't and won't.

If she won't, she is choosing to end the marriage.

If she can't, I will be with her every step of the way, loving her and supporting her the best I am able.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Physical: I would do everything possible, as far as restrictions allow, to have some form of sexual intimacy with her as she loves the closeness of the act, not just the pleasure and pray my ass off and do everything in my power to make life good for her and, if possible, get her better.
> 
> Mental: If at all possible, I would still have sex with her and take the best care of her as I can while praying my ass off again for her recovery.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response, Conan.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Physical: I would do everything possible, as far as restrictions allow, to have some form of sexual intimacy with her as she loves the closeness of the act, not just the pleasure and pray my ass off and do everything in my power to make life good for her and, if possible, get her better.
> 
> Mental: If at all possible, I would still have sex with her and take the best care of her as I can while praying my ass off again for her recovery.
> 
> ...


I like your answer.

During a brief spell of ED my husband went the extra mile to keep me satisfied. In fact it was a really profound experience because we had to think outside the box and be creative and experimental with our intimacy - we both found it very freeing. 

There is no reason you guys will be having great sex into your 90's:smile2: To be sure.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You are taking responsibility for the pain of decimating your life?


If I'm the one blowing it up, then yes, I am responsible for blowing it up. I can have every justification in the world for doing so, but it is still my choice. There is always a choice.



> I would say that responsibility falls squarely on the very selfish shoulders of your wife.


She is responsible for what she does, and I am responsible for my response to what she does.

How my life turns out is my responsibility. It does me no good to try and offload that responsibility to someone else.

And pain is pain. Is my pain, or that of my son, lessened in any way because I can justify my actions? Are our lives any less decimated because I blame her for the decimation? Decimated is decimated. In the end, the result is the same, regardless of who's wants to claim responsibility.

Someone wiser than me once said, "In life, you can be right, or you can be happy. Rarely can you be both, so choose wisely." And there are lots of righteous people who lead unhappy lives.



> She is destroying your marriage quite well all on her own.
> 
> I would make her own it.


Again, she makes her choices, I make mine. All I can do is choose to act in my best interests in any given situation.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

peacem said:


> I like your answer.
> 
> During a brief spell of ED my husband went the extra mile to keep me satisfied. In fact it was a really profound experience because we had to think outside the box and be creative and experimental with our intimacy - we both found it very freeing.
> 
> There is no reason you guys won't be having great sex into your 90's:smile2: To be sure.


Grrr...meant "will" not "won't" sorry :grin2:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> If I'm the one blowing it up, then yes, I am responsible for blowing it up. I can have every justification in the world for doing so, but it is still my choice. There is always a choice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can view it through any lense you want but I will never acknowledge that it is your fault that your marriage is being destroyed for unwillingness to have sex.

That is on her. Now you have chosen to be a martyr and allow her to dictate your sexless existence.

You appear to be more afraid of what consequences could happen if you required your wife to shape up than any possible changes for the better.

Spouses who choose to impose celibacy on their partners are at nearly infidelity levels in terms of marital destruction.

Your wife apparently doesn't give a **** about your wellbeing or your son unless she is so incredibly out of touch with reality as to make her borderline disabled.

Everyone should be very happy for her and how well her life is going.

Does she have any disorders or conditions?

I'm actually kind of angry for you and your son.

Not taking care of you is not taking care of her child either.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You can view it through any lense you want but I will never acknowledge that it is your fault that your marriage is being destroyed for unwillingness to have sex.


It isn't my fault that our marriage is being destroyed for unwillingness to have sex.

If I file for divorce, though, then the divorce is on me. It may serve my best interests to do so, or it may not, but either way, I would be the one responsible for filing for divorce. To try to claim that I am somehow not responsible for filing would be blame shifting.

If I cheated on her instead of divorcing, would that not be my fault, either?




> That is on her.


Sure it is. And my response, whatever it is, to what she does is on me.



> Now you have chosen to be a martyr and allow her to dictate your sexless existence.


How am I being a martyr? I am acting in my best interests, as best as I can determine them to be. That's not martyrdom.



> You appear to be more afraid of what consequences could happen if you required your wife to shape up than any possible changes for the better.


How do you 'require' someone to shape up? If I say, 'Shape up or I'm filing for divorce', and she doesn't shape up, what then? I get divorced and decimate my life and the life of my son (as well as my wife's life). And, at this point, that is a losing proposition for me. 

I never make bluffs that I can't afford to get called on.



> Your wife apparently doesn't give a **** about your wellbeing or your son unless she is so incredibly out of touch with reality as to make her borderline disabled.


Well, first of all, attraction isn't a rational thing. I can't command my wife to find me sexually desirable. She either does, or she doesn't. I can try to demand duty sex from her, but I've already made clear that I'm not entirely interested in having that kind of sex life.

Secondly, she would argue that she is working her a$$ off to provide a good life for my son and for me (which she is). Accusing her of not giving a **** about either of us (and especially my son) will do nothing but further fan the flames of resentment and cause her to disconnect further. She would undoubtedly turn that gun right back around on me, and we would both retreat to our corners to further steep in our self-righteousness, anger, and resentment.



> I'm actually kind of angry for you and your son.


We're fine. Life is hard and doesn't turn out the way you hope sometimes. **** happens. And this time, it happened to me/us. 

Anger is good if it can be harnessed into productive action. Being angry at another person rarely achieves productive action, as you can't control or change anyone but yourself. 

Again, an old proverb - "making someone wrong is like drinking poison hoping that they die"


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> It isn't my fault that our marriage is being destroyed for unwillingness to have sex.
> 
> If I file for divorce, though, then the divorce is on me. It may serve my best interests to do so, or it may not, but either way, I would be the one responsible for filing for divorce. To try to claim that I am somehow not responsible for filing would be blame shifting.
> 
> ...




Well. Though I am an excellent barbarian, I am far too pragmatic to be anything other than a poor philosopher.

You are so essentially different from me that your marriage might make sense.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Well. Though I am an excellent barbarian, I am far too pragmatic to be anything other than a poor philosopher.
> 
> You are so essentially different from me that your marriage might make sense.


Fair enough, lol.

And funnily enough, I tend to pride myself on my pragmatism and my disinclination to follow philosophies/ideologies, lol, so it's interesting that you see my position as more philosophical. To me, it seems entirely pragmatic. Go figure, lol...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Fair enough, lol.
> 
> And funnily enough, I tend to pride myself on my pragmatism and my disinclination to follow philosophies/ideologies, lol, so it's interesting that you see my position as more philosophical. To me, it seems entirely pragmatic. Go figure, lol...


It was your quoted proverbs.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> It was your quoted proverbs.


Ah, yes. 

But they are so _pragmatic_...lol.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazed, those were some really good posts. 

Are you showing any of these to your wife? 

Because I bet she would feel very proud to see the way you take responsibility for yourself. And she would surely feel loved to see how you stand up for her.


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## bridgetb007 (Apr 14, 2017)

In my opinion watching porn is a form of cheating. 
I have a husband who should satisfy my sexual needs. Me lusting, mind blowing another man for sexual pleasure is absolutely a form of cheating. My husband mind sexing another woman for his sexual pleasure is absolutely cheating. If in your marriage you find it acceptable for your wife/husband to mind sex another person then good for you. For me I'd rather be alone than my husband to "rub one out" over another person. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> There is no "should" in life or marriage. There is just what each partner is willing to do.
> 
> I understood you the first time. The issue in our marriage is that my wife does not find me sexually attractive, does not enjoy having sex with me, and there is nothing I can do about it. i tried diet, exercise, got promotions and raises at work, took her on dates, helped with the kids. Nothing mattered.
> 
> ...


 Why did she marry you if she doesn't find you physically attractive?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Why did she marry you if she doesn't find you physically attractive?


She thought I would be a good provider and a good father to her children and a good dinner companion on Saturday night. I have been all of those.

She claims she does not enjoy sex with anyone and gets nothing out of it. If that is true, why should it matter to her whether she finds me sexually attractive or doesn't enjoy sex with me? It is not like she is giving up something that is valuable to her, or that she believes she could have / get with another man. If you are a rape victim and engaging in any form of sex causes you to disasocciate from your body and pretend what is happening to you isn't happening, choosing men based on their physical attractiveness is pointless. The more you find him attractive, the more you will be drawn to engage in emotionally painful activity. Better to marry someone you do not find attractive - that way it will be easier to turn him down early and often.

And for the record, she said she did find me attractive and that she still does. She said "smart is sexy". She lied. The only question is whether she only lied to me or lied to herself too.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I completely agree that sexting is a form of cheating. 

As far as porn though - imagine if your husband decided he only rarely wanted sex with you -maybe once a month, and then didn't enjoy doing things that gave you pleasure. Couldn't you imagine turning to toys and masturbation? For many who are strongly visually stimulated, porn is just a type of sex toy.

Not all porn use like the above, but there are many people in that situation - with partners who have sexually abandoned them. 


In the cases where someone chooses porn over a willing partner, I completely agree with you.




bridgetb007 said:


> In my opinion watching porn is a form of cheating.
> I have a husband who should satisfy my sexual needs. Me lusting, mind blowing another man for sexual pleasure is absolutely a form of cheating. My husband mind sexing another woman for his sexual pleasure is absolutely cheating. If in your marriage you find it acceptable for your wife/husband to mind sex another person then good for you. For me I'd rather be alone than my husband to "rub one out" over another person.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> She thought I would be a good provider and a good father to her children and a good dinner companion on Saturday night. I have been all of those.
> 
> She claims she does not enjoy sex with anyone and gets nothing out of it. If that is true, why should it matter to her whether she finds me sexually attractive or doesn't enjoy sex with me? It is not like she is giving up something that is valuable to her, or that she believes she could have / get with another man. If you are a rape victim and engaging in any form of sex causes you to disasocciate from your body and pretend what is happening to you isn't happening, choosing men based on their physical attractiveness is pointless. The more you find him attractive, the more you will be drawn to engage in emotionally painful activity. Better to marry someone you do not find attractive - that way it will be easier to turn him down early and often.
> 
> And for the record, she said she did find me attractive and that she still does. She said "smart is sexy". She lied. The only question is whether she only lied to me or lied to herself too.


This would be a deal breaker for me. A marriage is not only about having children together. Did she tell you about her trauma prior to marriage? I'm sorry you're in this situation. It sounds like you've tried everything you could.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I completely agree that sexting is a form of cheating.
> 
> As far as porn though - imagine if your husband decided he only rarely wanted sex with you -maybe once a month, and then didn't enjoy doing things that gave you pleasure. Couldn't you imagine turning to toys and masturbation? For many who are strongly visually stimulated, porn is just a type of sex toy.
> 
> ...


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > I completely agree that sexting is a form of cheating.
> ...


After all my research including visiting porn sites while already aroused (ovulation time lol) I can say that fantasizing about sex the acts themselves still need to have bodies in the fantasies in your mind. Which can present an issue if the fantasies involve either made up images or images of persons who are not your partner, but thas the problem some people can't control the fantasies when already aroused it's like you not being able to control your dreams whIle asleep. And then for the ones who can't visualize and turn to images my experiment proved that it's very possible to not lust after the person and just find the image visually appealing to take care of the urge already present.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Jessica38 said:


> This would be a deal breaker for me. A marriage is not only about having children together. Did she tell you about her trauma prior to marriage? I'm sorry you're in this situation. It sounds like you've tried everything you could.


No, of course not. Two years into marriage counselling. Seven years and two kids into the marriage.

Look, it is my fault for letting it slide for so long. I should have got our marriage annulled upon return from our nearly sexless honeymoon. I should have divorced her when the first year of sex was disappointing. I took my vows too seriously. I gave too much value to her fabulous body. I did all the wrong "nice guy" moves. On me for not breaking it off sooner.
@jld and others might suggest I take a glass half full view of things and aim to be happier. We do get along as dinner companions on Saturday night. We do co-parent well. If I got sick she would "nurse" me to the best of her ability. So there are positive items to focus on if I chose to do so.

But I prefer to stay miserable and stay married. That is my "revenge". I am staying with someone who doesn't desire me sexually (or at least not enough to overcome her aversion) and she is staying with someone who is miserable and feels trapped. I am sure it is not so much fun to be married to someone like me. I pretend the lack of sex doesn't bother me, and she pretends she doesn't mind my pessimism, negativity and self-loathing. Trust me, I give as good as I get (or at least I try to - it is not my nature so sometimes I think I come up short). I am fabulously supportive on the outside. She knows the truth. But she can never admit it. Because she doesn't want to be divorced any more than I do.

After all, if we got divorced she would have to have sex with some other guy. If she stays with me, she has a dinner companion and she doesn't have to have any sex with anyone. I have made myself into her "perfect" man. One who spends every night and weekend with her and makes zero sexual demands of her. She will stay with me as long as I will have her. And I will stay with her until death do us part.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I would highly suggest counseling, Holdingontoit.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> No, of course not. Two years into marriage counselling. Seven years and two kids into the marriage.
> 
> Look, it is my fault for letting it slide for so long. I should have got our marriage annulled upon return from our nearly sexless honeymoon. I should have divorced her when the first year of sex was disappointing. I took my vows too seriously. I gave too much value to her fabulous body. I did all the wrong "nice guy" moves. On me for not breaking it off sooner.
> 
> ...


Well, I certainly can't find fault in a man who takes his marriage vows seriously. But you got screwed in the marriage department, no pun intended. Too bad because there are many women who would treat a man like you very well. 

You've definitely helped me see why men turn to porn to find some fulfillment in a sexless marriage. Still, it's got to be a poor substitute for the real thing.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> I would highly suggest counseling, Holdingontoit.


 @jld: Too late for that. I did it in my teens and 20s (talk alone). Then in my 30s and 40s (with meds). At this point so deep seated and treatment resistant that, if I had all my medical records, I would be a strong candidate for ECT. But that has nasty potential side effects and I am sole breadwinner for me, wife and 2 kids in college so no ECT for me. I would rather slog along and be miserable than risk losing the short term memory that is crucial for my high paying career that keeps my entourage going. 

I like being the martyr. That is why I stopped having sex with H2. Before that, she could play the martyr because she occasionally had sex with me - and what could be more awful than that? She was the one making the "grand sacrifice" for my benefit. Now, I get to be the martyr because I have voluntarily given up sex for her - and even she has to admit there is nothing she can do for me that outweighs that sacrifice.

See, I have flipped the power dynamic on her. Used to be that she had all the power because I would do pretty much anything to get some sex. She liked that. Now I have most of he power because I don't want nearly as much from her. And she still wants everything from me. The person who cares less about the outcome wins every negotiation. I care less about everything except her divorcing me, and as I said, she doesn't want that either.

Yes, I am a sick twisted mofo. But I do it with such style she can't seem to tear herself away from me!


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> WOW!
> 
> I cannot fathom the mindset of the men who posted about their wives attitudes towards sex!
> 
> ...


You old romantic.Hallmark couldn't have said it better.lol.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> She thought I would be a good provider and a good father to her children and a good dinner companion on Saturday night. I have been all of those.
> 
> She claims she does not enjoy sex with anyone and gets nothing out of it. If that is true, why should it matter to her whether she finds me sexually attractive or doesn't enjoy sex with me? It is not like she is giving up something that is valuable to her, or that she believes she could have / get with another man. If you are a rape victim and engaging in any form of sex causes you to disasocciate from your body and pretend what is happening to you isn't happening, choosing men based on their physical attractiveness is pointless. The more you find him attractive, the more you will be drawn to engage in emotionally painful activity. Better to marry someone you do not find attractive - that way it will be easier to turn him down early and often.
> 
> And for the record, she said she did find me attractive and that she still does. She said "smart is sexy". She lied. The only question is whether she only lied to me or lied to herself too.


Not sure you can blame all this on the rape. I know several people(men and women) who were repeatedly sexually abused and/or raped by their fathers as children who have happy marriages with regular sex. 
If it is the rape then why hasn't she sought help to get over it?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think the question comes down to whether the person on the screen in porn is more like a real person or more of a sex toy from the point of view of the observer.

Is a realistic shaped sex toy different from an abstract one? Does it matter if its realistic, or actually a duplicate of a real penis? Would animated porn (that looked real) be OK because its not a real person on the other end.

I separate sexting and camming from porn because of the interaction. Porn involves actors you are very unlikely to ever meet, and who's real names you typically don't ever know. So to me that is the same as them being imaginary. 

I can see though the idea of getting off to SOMEONE ELSE being disturbing. 

To me though the desire is for the action, not the particular person. 

On your other comment, many of us have tried everything we can think of to make our partners desire us more. The reasons for failure differ in each relationship. Some succeeded. Sometimes the failure is because one partner has very little natural desire for sex in a way that seems unchangable. 




Quote: from Jessica38 (sorry, multi-quote not working).
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I completely agree that sexting is a form of cheating. 

As far as porn though - imagine if your husband decided he only rarely wanted sex with you -maybe once a month, and then didn't enjoy doing things that gave you pleasure. Couldn't you imagine turning to toys and masturbation? For many who are strongly visually stimulated, porn is just a type of sex toy.

_I'd like to say no, but I see your point if you want to stay married but are not satisfied with your sex life and your partner is unwilling to work with you. But I'd try everything I could first to figure out what the issue is - sex therapy, for example. And I think masturbation is totally acceptable in marriage. Fantasizing about sex is different from looking at another person's naked body and lusting for them. Sex toys also bring pleasure without including a person outside the marriage. _

Not all porn use like the above, but there are many people in that situation - with partners who have sexually abandoned them. 


In the cases where someone chooses porn over a willing partner, I completely agree with you.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think the question comes down to whether the person on the screen in porn is more like a real person or more of a sex toy from the point of view of the observer.
> 
> Is a realistic shaped sex toy different from an abstract one? Does it matter if its realistic, or actually a duplicate of a real penis? Would animated porn (that looked real) be OK because its not a real person on the other end.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

So is it the visual imagery that is concerning? Whether real people or animated would bother you. I know the genders don't match but do you think you would be bothered by a realistic sex toy? (you mentioned that you would not use a toy that bothered him, but would a realistic toy bother you?)

Would you stop all toy use if all toys bothered him?

For me, sex toys (realistic and not) seem the same as porn - both are masturbation tools. I know that others see it differently, but to me they are the same. 

For sex therapy to be an option the other partner has to believe that there is a problem. 



Quote:
Originally Posted by uhtred View Post
I think the question comes down to whether the person on the screen in porn is more like a real person or more of a sex toy from the point of view of the observer.

Is a realistic shaped sex toy different from an abstract one? Does it matter if its realistic, or actually a duplicate of a real penis? Would animated porn (that looked real) be OK because its not a real person on the other end.

Honestly, if my partner were looking at naked animated women in sexually compromising positions to get off, I'd be pretty turned off. If he ever told me he didn't want me to use a certain toy, I wouldn't. 

I separate sexting and camming from porn because of the interaction. Porn involves actors you are very unlikely to ever meet, and who's real names you typically don't ever know. So to me that is the same as them being imaginary. 

And I separate using a toy like a vibrator from involving a person outside of the marriage, which is how I see getting off to another woman's (or man's) naked body. To me, anything that involves another person outside of the marriage for sexual pleasure/fulfillment is hurtful to the intimacy and exclusivity of the marriage. 

I can see though the idea of getting off to SOMEONE ELSE being disturbing. 

Yes! This is how I feel about porn use.

To me though the desire is for the action, not the particular person. 

Totally get that, and I understand that is why some couples enjoy watching together. 

On your other comment, many of us have tried everything we can think of to make our partners desire us more. The reasons for failure differ in each relationship. Some succeeded. Sometimes the failure is because one partner has very little natural desire for sex.

I understand. This is where I think sex therapy could help many couples, because I still think porn is a poor substitute for the real thing. Physical intimacy in marriage is important IMO.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> So is it the visual imagery that is concerning? Whether real people or animated would bother you. I know the genders don't match but do you think you would be bothered by a realistic sex toy? (you mentioned that you would not use a toy that bothered him, but would a realistic toy bother you?)
> 
> Yeah, if my husband enjoyed using a rubber vagina, I'd be bothered. But not for the same reason as I'd be hurt if he looked at other naked women to get off. I have no problem with him using his hand if I am not around.
> 
> ...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Not sure you can blame all this on the rape. I know several people(men and women) who were repeatedly sexually abused and/or raped by their fathers as children who have happy marriages with regular sex.
> If it is the rape then why hasn't she sought help to get over it?


I can think of lots of reasons. Yes, some people get abused and go on to have healthy sex lives. Some don't. Some of those who don't get help. Some don't. Lots of reasons why a person who is averse to sex does not want to get help. Maybe they don't want to feel broken. Maybe they don't want to go back and revisit the abuse. Maybe they want to pretend it makes no difference in their current behavior. Maybe they want to be accepted as they are and don't want to be told there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed. Lots of reasons to avoid getting help.

Plenty of addicts don't get help to get clean. Plenty of smokers don't get help to quit. Plenty of people who are overweight and out of shape don't get help with their diet and exercise habits. Not everyone is dedicated to the process of self-improvement.

Maybe you are right. Maybe it is not the rape. Maybe she just finds me horribly repulsive. If so, why did she marry me? The sex stopped literally the moment I said "I do". AT this point, it doesn't matter.

Better to ask "if sex is so important to you, then why didn't you divorce her after the sexless honeymoon"? Put the focus where it belongs. On me.

Which is my long winded way of saying: no, in my marriage porn is not a form of infidelity. My wife is free to watch as much porn as she likes. I am not having sex with her. If she wants to masturbate and fantasize about other men, she has my blessing. If she wants me to stop watching porn and stop masturbating, she can stab me through the heart in my sleep.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I was considering the case when the toys were used alone. Do you feel like masturbating alone is bad (assuming you are also available to your partner when he wants)? Would it be different if you used a realistic looking / feeling toy (assuming that masturbating that way worked for you). 

You see a rubber vagina as a problem but not a hand. Would a non-realistic looking masturbation aid be a problem?

I don't mean to interrogate, but I find it interesting to understand how other people view issues.


For me the key issue is interaction. I don't care if my wife masturbates with any sort of toy she wants, while looking at an visual aids or reading anything she wants. I would not be happy if she were interacting with someone else, even if was just by exchanged texts but no pictures.

Without interaction it doesn't seem like a real person and so isn't threatening. 


The question of sex robots I find interesting and I'm not sure what I think.





So is it the visual imagery that is concerning? Whether real people or animated would bother you. I know the genders don't match but do you think you would be bothered by a realistic sex toy? (you mentioned that you would not use a toy that bothered him, but would a realistic toy bother you?)

Yeah, if my husband enjoyed using a rubber vagina, I'd be bothered. But not for the same reason as I'd be hurt if he looked at other naked women to get off. I have no problem with him using his hand if I am not around. 

Would you stop all toy use if all toys bothered him?

Yes. 

For me, sex toys (realistic and not) seem the same as porn - both are masturbation tools. I know that others see it differently, but to me they are the same. 

Not if you don't use them alone! He got me the vibrator and we use it together. He has no issue with me using it alone if he's not around but I only do this to text him about it because it excites him. I would not get excited if he texted to tell me that he just screwed a rubber vagina.

For sex therapy to be an option the other partner has to believe that there is a problem. 

Not necessarily. A couple can go because one partner has an issue they haven't figured out how to communicate, and sometimes a couple goes because things aren't going well in the bedroom and they aren't sure why. I do think that sex therapy will not help if one partner continues to deny there is a problem. But in marriage we need to show our spouse care- and that means listening to them when they say they have a problem in the marriage. It doesn't mean we automatically know how to fix the problem (like if one spouse wants sex every day and the other only wants it every month), but we have to acknowledge that when our partner isn't happy, there is an issue there- even if we don't agree.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I was considering the case when the toys were used alone. Do you feel like masturbating alone is bad (assuming you are also available to your partner when he wants)? Would it be different if you used a realistic looking / feeling toy (assuming that masturbating that way worked for you).
> 
> I have no issue with my husband m'ing. I just have an issue with him using a person outside the marriage for sexual fulfillment.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think our biggest difference here is when we consider it "involving" another person. My opinion on this may be unusual:

I don't mind my wife getting off to a picture or video of another man as long as its one-way. To me that means non-interacting. I would not be happy with her having some video linke and telling the other guy what to do - its the up and back interaction where I draw the line. (not saying its the right place, just the way my brain works).

Maybe its because I can't imagine developing any sort of attachment without that interaction. If I see a woman in a porn movie it may get me aroused and make me want sex, but it doesn't make me want sex with *her*. If I were interacting then it would feel like a real person, not just some abstract image, and so I might develop an attachment.

My personal interactions with people are sort of empathic - I'm sensitive to what they are thinking / feeling and how they react to me. If there is only one way communication (watching an image) that link isn't there, and the feedback of each interacting with the other doesn't happen. This is also why although I watch porn as a sort of last resort, I would never prefer it to a real person. 


Another poster, Lizzyb did the experiment of looking at some porn. She found it arousing, but had no desire to have sex with the person in the video. If you have ever seen porn, did you feel any attraction to the person, or just arousal, or was it just a turn-off? I'm wondering if different people react differently, or if people who haven't seen porn imagine a different reaction than the one that porn watchers get. 


BTW - I find the rubber vagina thing gross personally, just bring it up as an example. Strangely I don't find a rubber penis gross, and my wife has more than one as a sex toy that I'm happy to use with her on the rare occasions that we have sex.

Sex bots are to me clearly inferior to real people. What I was thinking about is whether or not I'd be bothered if my wife used one. I think a simple sex bot that performs specific sexual acts wouldn't bother me - it would be just like a vibrator. I sex bot with feelings / emotions would bother me - again that implies this 2-way interaction that is what matters. 


All the above about how I'd feel about my wife is assuming that we had a good sex life. Since it is so limited, I do sort of resent her directing any sexual energies anywhere but towards me. 





Jessica38 said:


> I was considering the case when the toys were used alone. Do you feel like masturbating alone is bad (assuming you are also available to your partner when he wants)? Would it be different if you used a realistic looking / feeling toy (assuming that masturbating that way worked for you).
> 
> I have no issue with my husband m'ing. I just have an issue with him using a person outside the marriage for sexual fulfillment.
> 
> ...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I think our biggest difference here is when we consider it "involving" another person. My opinion on this may be unusual:
> 
> I don't mind my wife getting off to a picture or video of another man as long as its one-way. To me that means non-interacting. I would not be happy with her having some video linke and telling the other guy what to do - its the up and back interaction where I draw the line. (not saying its the right place, just the way my brain works).
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She doesn't know that I watch porn, but I expect she would not approve. She would not understand why I wanted porn. I would certainly stop if she was willing to work on what I consider a healthy sex life - in fact I wouldn't have any interest in porn in that case. But she isn't willing, or more realistically isn't able to change how she feels about sex. Its just not important to her, and she is unable to understand why its interesting to anyone else. Just now at dinner we were talking about dating etc in general and she basically commented that women used their appearance and sex to try to catch men to marry, and men try to get what sex they can without being married. (she didn't do this to me - there was never much sex - I was just too inexperienced to realize that it wouldn't change). 

Sex robots aren't real yet, but I don't think that they are all that far off. 10-20 years maybe? Difficult to tell where the technology is going. It will be interesting to see how they are received. They might just come across as super creepy like "real dolls".



Jessica38 said:


> I think our biggest difference here is when we consider it "involving" another person. My opinion on this may be unusual:
> 
> I don't mind my wife getting off to a picture or video of another man as long as its one-way. To me that means non-interacting. I would not be happy with her having some video linke and telling the other guy what to do - its the up and back interaction where I draw the line. (not saying its the right place, just the way my brain works).
> 
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I think the question comes down to whether the person on the screen in porn is more like a real person or more of a sex toy from the point of view of the observer.
> 
> Is a realistic shaped sex toy different from an abstract one? Does it matter if its realistic, or actually a duplicate of a real penis? Would animated porn (that looked real) be OK because its not a real person on the other end.
> 
> ...


Everyone in porn is 'someone else'.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm having technical difficulty with the mult-quoting so the previous post was a combination of several people.

To me, without two-way interaction of some sort, it doesn't feel like another person.



Diana7 said:


> Everyone in porn is 'someone else'.


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## Cuckold1967 (Apr 14, 2017)

I would say: It depends on the function it has in the relationship.

In my case: I use it a lot, and my wife, who totally disapproves of porn anyway, does not know about it and would be mad if she found out.
So, in my case, it is infidelity, and I think it is so for two reasons:
She would FEEL betrayed if she knew, and I, while watching, fantasise in ways that ARE a form of betrayal.

But, that being said, all I would REALLY wish for is for my wife to share my sexuality to a greater extent and for us to live that out TOGETHER.
Hence, I feel caught in a downward spiral as my increasing consumption has become an addiction that alienates me from her.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

uhtred said:


> She doesn't know that I watch porn, but I expect she would not approve. She would not understand why I wanted porn. * I would certainly stop if she was willing to work on what I consider a healthy sex life - in fact I wouldn't have any interest in porn in that case. * But she isn't willing, or more realistically isn't able to change how she feels about sex. Its just not important to her, and she is unable to understand why its interesting to anyone else. Just now at dinner we were talking about dating etc in general and she basically commented that women used their appearance and sex to try to catch men to marry, and men try to get what sex they can without being married. (she didn't do this to me - there was never much sex - I was just too inexperienced to realize that it wouldn't change).
> 
> Sex robots aren't real yet, but I don't think that they are all that far off. 10-20 years maybe? Difficult to tell where the technology is going. It will be interesting to see how they are received. They might just come across as super creepy like "real dolls".


I can definitely understand this. You've really opened my eyes as to why husbands would use porn. In the situation you describe above, I really see where you're coming from.


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## Lizzyb (Mar 29, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > She doesn't know that I watch porn, but I expect she would not approve. She would not understand why I wanted porn. * I would certainly stop if she was willing to work on what I consider a healthy sex life - in fact I wouldn't have any interest in porn in that case. * But she isn't willing, or more realistically isn't able to change how she feels about sex. Its just not important to her, and she is unable to understand why its interesting to anyone else. Just now at dinner we were talking about dating etc in general and she basically commented that women used their appearance and sex to try to catch men to marry, and men try to get what sex they can without being married. (she didn't do this to me - there was never much sex - I was just too inexperienced to realize that it wouldn't change).
> ...


What I am learning through my experience and research is that a lot of men who use it wouldn't have to if they have a partner who was willing to have sex when they were having the intense desire and they have open communication. Some couples don't and the women send out vibes that it's the the right time and the men won't voice anything so they take the matter into their own hands and use the quickest way to do it which is visual stimulation. Yes there are some men who use it for other reasons but I'm not talking about them. These normal men who feel they have no other outlet feel guilt and ashamed and just wished they had their woman to share and give all their sexual energy to. If women would take the time to understand how these men are wired and understand the feelings of them and talk to them they maybe could work through it but it takes both and not always one is willing.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Lizzyb said:


> What I am learning through my experience and research is that a lot of men who use it wouldn't have to if they have a partner who was willing to have sex when they were having the intense desire and they have open communication. Some couples don't and the women send out vibes that it's the the right time and the men won't voice anything so they take the matter into their own hands and use the quickest way to do it which is visual stimulation. Yes there are some men who use it for other reasons but I'm not talking about them. These normal men who feel they have no other outlet feel guilt and ashamed and just wished they had their woman to share and give all their sexual energy to. If women would take the time to understand how these men are wired and understand the feelings of them and talk to them they maybe could work through it but it takes both and not always one is willing.


This is exactly what I'm learning here on TAM. I really understand it so much more now, and I feel for men who are trying to make their marriages work with a sub-par sexual life. I actually hope they are finding fulfillment with this alternative.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

One thing I've found on TAM and other sites is the very wide variety of different situations that seem to be similar at a first glance. 

Porn use seems to have an especially large variation. There are men who ignore their wives and watch porn, or who expect their wives to behave like porn stars. There are men who are clueless about sex and women and just watch porn. There are men who watch as a last resort when they can't fix their sex lives. There are women who watch when they can't fix their sex lives. There are men and women who watch to enhance their sex lives. Then there are actual addicts who wish they could stop but cant.

People are complicated.

I think when there is a porn issue in a relationship its worth trying to learn about that specific situation rather than looking for generalizations or jumping to conclusions. It takes time and may be difficult because the topic is so emotionally charged, but I think its important.

I'm very happy to see real discussion of issues like this here. Whether or not people eventually agree isn't important as long as they have really thought about the issue. 



Jessica38 said:


> This is exactly what I'm learning here on TAM. I really understand it so much more now, and I feel for men who are trying to make their marriages work with a sub-par sexual life. I actually hope they are finding fulfillment with this alternative.


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## Justsayin4897 (Jan 22, 2016)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> People are complicated.
> 
> I think when there is a porn issue in a relationship its worth trying to learn about that specific situation rather than looking for generalizations or jumping to conclusions. It takes time and may be difficult because the topic is so emotionally charged, but I think its important.
> 
> I'm very happy to see real discussion of issues like this here. Whether or not people eventually agree isn't important as long as they have really thought about the issue.


 @uhtred that is a very good point. One problem with porn is that it can also become BOTH the cause AND effect of problems in a relationship. When couples struggle with it, too often the aspect of porn being a symptom of other issues will be overlooked. Then much like going to the doctor with a problem, it os often decided to just treat the symptoms and not even bother to try and find out what is causing the problem in the first place. 

I had a teacher in elementary school described drugs to us. She was like "somebody might be in a lot of pain because their head hurts, so they take drugs to make it stop. Meanwhile they just keep on hitting themselves in the head with a hammer over and over and over." In this analogy porn is likely the drug of choice to numb emotional pain in a relationship with some serious issues that are the metaphorical equivalent to hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. 

In another situation someone might be struggling to understand their own sexuality, and porn may actually help them understand that their desires are actually common and can be explored within the the context of a healthy monogamous relationship. In this situation porn reduces shame and helps someone understand themselves. This is often cited as an example for those that identify with the LGBTQIA community as something that helps them come out and just be themselves. 

Then you have those that initially use porn to enhance their sexuality, but might eventually struggle with how overstimulating and unrealistic that it is. This then likely causes their partners to suffer as in this situation wives are asked to perform sexual acts that may be emotionally/physically uncomfortable or painful as a result of their male partner needing more and more stimulation to reach climax after being exposed to too much porn. 

Then you have men/women that perhaps suffer from mild performance anxiety and/or arousal difficulty. Watching a little porn may actually help give them a little stimulation boost needed to get things started. One would argue that doing this is much healthier and safer than using a pharmaceutical solution of administering drugs. This turned out to be exactly the case in clinical trials to try and create a female version of viagra as the "placebo" was very effective at helping couples. Turns out the placebo was that the couples had all been instructed to watch porn, so congress anecdotally asked the pharmaceutical companies to only produce the placebo since it had actually proven effective. 

So look at all those situations and ask yourself what happens if porn was forbidden or removed from all of those situations. Would it help or hurt the couples? In some situations perhaps it would actually help, and others it would not. 

Badsanta


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## Journee723 (Apr 26, 2017)

I'm new here this is my very first reply or question or whatever...lol! Anyway my issue with porn is that my husband started using porn as a means for release instead of attempting to have sex with me. I cannot keep tract of the gazillion times I've walked in or awakened to him jerking off while watching porn! The first few times it didn't bother me that much but when it started happening on a daily basis I knew this was now out of control. I told him I didn't want him looking at porn anymore because it was stopping us from actually having sex and he agreed but then he started this behavior of jerking off at the foot of the bed while I'm sleeping! I would wake up to him literally jerking off on me! Wth? I finally had enough and asked him why he was doing this and he said it was because I'm so difficult to approach sexually anymore and it was easier for him to keep his connection with me if he visually looked at me while jerking off???? I'm so confused because I have tried to be more sexually available and I've even joined in when I would walk in or catch him jerking off. I would wake up to him jerking off at the foot of the bed and I would again make myself available to him. Am I missing something? 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Journee723 said:


> I'm new here this is my very first reply or question or whatever...lol! Anyway my issue with porn is that my husband started using porn as a means for release instead of attempting to have sex with me. I cannot keep tract of the gazillion times I've walked in or awakened to him jerking off while watching porn! The first few times it didn't bother me that much but when it started happening on a daily basis I knew this was now out of control. I told him I didn't want him looking at porn anymore because it was stopping us from actually having sex and he agreed but then he started this behavior of jerking off at the foot of the bed while I'm sleeping! I would wake up to him literally jerking off on me! Wth? I finally had enough and asked him why he was doing this and he said it was because I'm so difficult to approach sexually anymore and it was easier for him to keep his connection with me if he visually looked at me while jerking off???? I'm so confused because I have tried to be more sexually available and I've even joined in when I would walk in or catch him jerking off. I would wake up to him jerking off at the foot of the bed and I would again make myself available to him. Am I missing something?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum :smile2:

When chronic masturbation overtakes the need for physical intimacy then something has gone wrong between you (not necessarily sex - it could literally be anything - but is now coming out in bad and unhealthy ways). It is important to not be overly critical and accusatory (I'm sure you are not) as stress makes it worse. You need to talk *a lot* about how you feel and why he does what he does. A really good idea to switch off the internet while you two work together to reconnect. 

I wonder if you could make a new thread because your question may go missing in a thread that has been on the go for so long. You will get a whole range of advice if you had a thread of your own - it is actually a fairly common problem on Sex In Marriage board. :smile2: I have been through something similar and managed to work through our issues.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Journee723 said:


> I'm new here this is my very first reply or question or whatever...lol! Anyway my issue with porn is that my husband started using porn as a means for release instead of attempting to have sex with me. I cannot keep tract of the gazillion times I've walked in or awakened to him jerking off while watching porn! The first few times it didn't bother me that much but when it started happening on a daily basis I knew this was now out of control. I told him I didn't want him looking at porn anymore because it was stopping us from actually having sex and he agreed but then he started this behavior of jerking off at the foot of the bed while I'm sleeping! I would wake up to him literally jerking off on me! Wth? I finally had enough and asked him why he was doing this and he said it was because I'm so difficult to approach sexually anymore and it was easier for him to keep his connection with me if he visually looked at me while jerking off???? I'm so confused because I have tried to be more sexually available and I've even joined in when I would walk in or catch him jerking off. I would wake up to him jerking off at the foot of the bed and I would again make myself available to him. Am I missing something?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It sounds as if your husband is either dealing with shame of some sorts. Perhaps it is not that you are hard to approach, but more so that he can not let go of is shame and just be himself around you sexually.


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## Journee723 (Apr 26, 2017)

badsanta said:


> It sounds as if your husband is either dealing with shame of some sorts. Perhaps it is not that you are hard to approach, but more so that he can not let go of is shame and just be himself around you sexually.




That actually makes a lot of sense considering my husbands personality and how secretive he is....wow! I feel like we do not connect in ways we should. I'm the opposite I'm an open book and He gets very uncomfortable about certain issues. Thank u for ur reply it really made me think a bit differently about all of this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Journee723 said:


> That actually makes a lot of sense considering my husbands personality and how secretive he is....wow! I feel like we do not connect in ways we should. I'm the opposite I'm an open book and He gets very uncomfortable about certain issues. Thank u for ur reply it really made me think a bit differently about all of this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Research into marital relationships indicates as individuals we often struggle to make ourselves truly known to our partners out of fear that it may somehow harm the relationship. When this happens perhaps one struggles trying to be someone "better" than who they might actually be in order to keep a partner happy and pleased, but in reality this is a form of lying to one's self as well as a partner. When this happens in regards to someone's sexuality, porn and secretive behavior are generally tell tale signs that this behavior has resulted in shaming one's self for a long period of time. 

A good example of this would be sexual fantasies that might easily be perceived as harmful to the marriage, such as exploring sex with multiple partners or acting out something deemed socially unacceptable such as a fetish of some sorts. He may not even have any fantasies and it may be as simple as him feeling ashamed to enjoy sex with you because he feels as though he does not deserve it, and perhaps feels more comfortable enjoying it mostly alone. 

Badsanta


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## Puny_T-Rex_Arms (Apr 20, 2017)

Anyone that actually answers 'yes' to this is probably pretty insecure.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

badsanta said:


> When I first started to struggle to understand myself and my wife's views on this matter I found an odd forum thread on Oprah's website were there was a heated debate about this topic (well over a decade ago). It was endless post after post about varying views as people handle shame and pain related to this topic in very different ways.
> 
> It was reading through all these posts that I learned that "lying about porn" to your spouse is way worse than just directly dealing with your spouse's conflicting views on the topic as it undermines trust and communication in a marriage.
> 
> ...


I don't believe so but I guess it depends on how often and the circumstances, i would never use it in place of my W it was always a second choice and she knew and did not care as it meant I left her alone when she was not in the mood.

If it comes in place on intimacy with spouse then I would say yes it is a form of infidelity.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Puny_T-Rex_Arms said:


> Anyone that actually answers 'yes' to this is probably pretty insecure.


So too is every husband that deletes his browsing history! 










and another!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

deleted


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## Happykat (Mar 29, 2016)

My opinion:

Porn is a fancy word for online prostitution.

You view a video, producer gets a click, advertiser pays or direct payment to producer.

Of course it is easier and effortless. But the basic concept is still the same.

----
Why imagination/ erotic stories vs video and photos are not the same. They are apples and oranges: 

Because videos and photo are made of real people. 

Fiction vs. Non.fiction.

---

But of course, when you have no religion, anything in the world is your oyster.


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## Happykat (Mar 29, 2016)

peacem said:


> @Lizzyb
> 
> Once your husband has ejaculated he has no interest in that woman - he may even have feelings of disgust. Chances are that when men view porn with drop dead gorgeous (unobtainable) women he is far less likely to flirt or have wandering eyes at work (or whatever). Its out of his system and its you that he cuddles up with at night. Hope that reassures you a little.


This is what you call: desensitization.

When you touch hot water and then move your hand to a warm water, the warm water feels cool.

When you are exposed to 100 bats at once and then move to a room with one bat, that room with one bat seems boring.

Same thing with porn, once you are exposed to super hot prostitute and then you see your wife or average women, well... Not aroused! No wandering eyes.

This is why Japanese men have no motivation to approach women and get married. Why? Online prostitution is sooo much easy and accessible.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Happykat said:


> *This is what you call: desensitization.*
> 
> When you touch hot water and then move your hand to a warm water, the warm water feels cool.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately females are unable to empathize with men on this topic. Men experience a release of hormones upon climax that creates the "refractory period." These hormones specifically counteract testosterone and can stay in the male's system for days. Many men will use porn specifically to achieve the hormonal after effects of the refractory period as it can be just as strong as taking a valium. It will allow a man that was once upset to become rather calm and lethargic. Some men will repeat this process even in the absence of any arousal and it compounds that amount of refractory hormones in the male body.

Now yes, since the hormones released (one being prolactin in particular) counteract testosterone, he will become very desensitized towards all and any women. But that is only a small part of the equation. 

Overall porn and masturbation that leads to one appearing to be desensitized is more about "self medicating!" Antidepressants tend to have the exact same effect on most men in that the medications counteract their libidos.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Puny_T-Rex_Arms (Apr 20, 2017)

It's important to understand the definition of words like _insecure_ before replying.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Would you view realistic animated porn differently?




Happykat said:


> My opinion:
> 
> Porn is a fancy word for online prostitution.
> 
> ...


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## Journee723 (Apr 26, 2017)

peacem said:


> Welcome to the forum :smile2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow! I'm so grateful for ur feedback and advice. It makes me feel less alone in this situation. I'm not sure how to make my own thread but I will absolutely try and figure it out because it is very therapeutic for me to hear what others have to say. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Journee723 said:


> Wow! I'm so grateful for ur feedback and advice. It makes me feel less alone in this situation. I'm not sure how to make my own thread but I will absolutely try and figure it out because it is very therapeutic for me to hear what others have to say.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Go to Sex in Marriage. On the left hand side there is a button that says 'start new thread'.


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## Tony Conrad (Oct 7, 2013)

Porn is definitely mental adultery in my book. No question about it. Obviously if one is doing porn they will disagree but that doesn't change the truth none.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Tony Conrad said:


> Porn is definitely mental adultery in my book. No question about it. Obviously if one is doing porn they will disagree but that doesn't change the truth none.


These statements are not congruent.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

Do what works for you. We don't watch porn, at least I don't think she does and I don't. We keep each other busy enough that I'd be missing out on her if I were to waste it on masturbating. I think it could rob you of each other. But that's taking into account that both partners are into sex and willing to try out what each other wants enthusiastically.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Tony Conrad said:


> Porn is definitely *mental adultery* in my book. No question about it. Obviously if one is doing porn they will disagree but that doesn't change the truth none.


Set the topic of porn aside for a moment and let us focus just on the concept of this "mental adultery" which you describe. Hypothetically imagine a situation in which one has a very vivid and dream of sexual experiences outside the context of their marriage. So vivid in fact that it results in climax and the person experiencing the dream fully embraced and enjoyed this experience to its fullest. 

Now given that one has no known control over his/her dreams, most people would say such an experience would be completely exempt of being a form of infidelity. Yet the person that experiences such a dream may actually feel ashamed and upset as if the dream did qualify as a form of infidelity, particularly if he/she is able to recall how much the dream was enjoyed while experiencing it.

Should the person that experienced such a dream forgive themselves and let go of the shame, particularly if that shame has started causing severe problems in the marriage?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Tony Conrad said:


> Porn is definitely mental adultery in my book. No question about it. Obviously if one is doing porn they will disagree but that doesn't change the truth none.


Mental adultery?

a·dul·ter·y
əˈdəlt(ə)rē/Submit
noun
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.


So porn as _mental adultery_ would be mentally engaging in sex with someone who is not your spouse--that would apply then to _*any fantasy* that involves someone other than your spouse_. I daresay many (most?) people who decry porn, both men and women, have engaged in this sort of mental adultery. Does the use of an image to facilitate this fantasy make it worse? It's still "mental adultery" either way. 

And must it be "mental adultery?' When I watch a football game, I don't imagine myself threading through the defense and scoring the winning touchdown. I just enjoy watching the impressive athletic feats of others. No personal fantasy involved whatsoever. We like watching others play games. Similarly, can we not enjoy watching others have sex without imagining ourselves as a participant? 

I say this as someone who does not "do porn."


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Mental adultery?


I think there is such a thing as "mental adultery" particularly if applied within the context of an emotional affair. While people that find themselves having an EA may or may not define it as infidelity/adultery, all the elements are there on an emotional/mental level even though nothing has happened physically. 

Perhaps a key thing may be to ask if such instances of what is being described as "mental adultery" serves to pull you away and make you more emotionally distant from your spouse...

As for porn, YES it can cause problems and put distance in marriages. Although in my opinion the porn is actually a symptom of the problem as opposed to the source of the problem. While sometimes you can resolve issues by treating just the symptoms (avoiding porn), sometimes you need to find out what the real problem is in order to make any real progress. More often than not it is shame, sexual disgust, and fear of being rejected should one become completely open and vulnerable to a spouse about who they are.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I think there is such a thing as "mental adultery" particularly if applied within the context of an emotional affair. While people that find themselves having an EA may or may not define it as infidelity/adultery, all the elements are there on an emotional/mental level even though nothing has happened physically.
> 
> Perhaps a key thing may be to ask if such instances of what is being described as "mental adultery" serves to pull you away and make you more emotionally distant from your spouse...
> 
> As for porn, YES it can cause problems and put distance in marriages. Although in my opinion the porn is actually a symptom of the problem as opposed to the source of the problem. While sometimes you can resolve issues by treating just the symptoms (avoiding porn), sometimes you need to find out what the real problem is in order to make any real progress. More often than not it is shame, sexual disgust, and fear of being rejected should one become completely open and vulnerable to a spouse about who they are.


I remember when I first came to TAM I heard for the first time 'Emotional Affair' and in my naivety had to look it up - to my absolute horror I sincerely believed myself to be guilty of this at least twice in my married life. I had an evening of heartfelt confession, admitting to it all and feeling very remorseful (tears to boot).

My husbands reaction was :scratchhead::lol:. He reassured me I hadn't had an affair. Our marriage hadn't been happy, he ignored me so I had developed crushes, which I recognised as unhealthy and cut ties. 

With porn. If something is not right in a marriage it is an easy place to turn to relieve frustration or self-sooth, but there is no physical contact and no emotional bonding (as far as I can gather). In fact it is better that than actually connecting with someone in real life. In retrospect my 'crushes' were far more deviant to my marriage than my husband's porn use but we don't consider either to be infidelity. Neither were healthy.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Set the topic of porn aside for a moment and let us focus just on the concept of this "mental adultery" which you describe. Hypothetically imagine a situation in which one has a very vivid and dream of sexual experiences outside the context of their marriage. So vivid in fact that it results in climax and the person experiencing the dream fully embraced and enjoyed this experience to its fullest.
> 
> Now given that one has no known control over his/her dreams, most people would say such an experience would be completely exempt of being a form of infidelity. Yet the person that experiences such a dream may actually feel ashamed and upset as if the dream did qualify as a form of infidelity, particularly if he/she is able to recall how much the dream was enjoyed while experiencing it.
> 
> Should the person that experienced such a dream forgive themselves and let go of the shame, particularly if that shame has started causing severe problems in the marriage?


Dreams are greatly influenced by what we see and think about during the day.So if we watch porn, then we may well dream of having sex with other people. If we don't watch porn and try not to fantasise about others but still occasionally have a dream like that, I cant see that its our fault and we need to let it go.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Dreams are greatly influenced by what we see and think about during the day.So if we watch porn, then we may well dream of having sex with other people. If we don't watch porn and try not to fantasise about others but still occasionally have a dream like that, I cant see that its our fault and we need to let it go.


Dreams are also stimulated by what the body is physically experiencing while one is sleeping. If you go to bed with a injured leg, perhaps you dream about stepping in lava and your leg catching on fire. In an interview with Chilean minors trapped in a hot mine underground for many days, they reported that they had dreams that their bodies were being BBQ'd while sleeping. 

So ironically for those that watch porn, the body has released and exhausted its hormonal urges for sex. Many people that watch a great deal of porn and masturbate often report never ever having a "wet dream" for the entirety of their lives. And it is suggested that if these individuals desired to experience a sexual dream that they would need to stop watching porn and masturbating so that the body would build up a hormonal urge to release while sleeping. 

So for those having sexual dreams are more likely individuals that are stressed out and have a buildup of hormonal urges that can not be released while the individual is awake. Strong sexual dreams follow because the body has to do "something" with all that chemistry to keep things in balance. 

Something interesting to think about.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Dreams are greatly influenced by what we see and think about during the day.So if we watch porn, then we may well dream of having sex with other people. If we don't watch porn and try not to fantasise about others but still occasionally have a dream like that, I cant see that its our fault and we need to let it go.


Diana - sexual dreams are exclusively about being horny. I used to have porny dreams long before I had even seen porn, even as a young girl cloistered by religious prudery and in the days when tv was far more innocent than it is now. I remember going to school and worrying about them throughout the day, they were completely unwanted. Sadly I never had dreams about the hot boy in 6th form which would have been far more preferable at the age of 14.


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## lizattwu (Nov 1, 2017)

My husband have an addiction to voyeurism and that has been a battle for many years in our marriage. After therapy and counseling, now its back again. There seem to be no hope in it, so I finally realized just let it be. There is not much there in a marriage when you lost the trust, with betrayal or deceived. Dilemma is having to stick together for the kids I figure is the best thing to do until they are grown. It is not easy, we all have our issues. Can only make the best of it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

By "addiction" do you mean that he can't control himself, or that he doesn't want to stop? "Voyerism" means watching porn, or actually spying on people?



lizattwu said:


> My husband have an addiction to voyeurism and that has been a battle for many years in our marriage. After therapy and counseling, now its back again. There seem to be no hope in it, so I finally realized just let it be. There is not much there in a marriage when you lost the trust, with betrayal or deceived. Dilemma is having to stick together for the kids I figure is the best thing to do until they are grown. It is not easy, we all have our issues. Can only make the best of it.


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