# Were you taught sex was bad, or a chore?



## richardsharpe

Good evening all
I'm curious how many women were taught that sex is bad, or something you do "for" your husband as opposed to "with" your partner. 

Has this changed much since when I was a kid (the late Jurassic).

Were you able to eventually overcome those feelings - was it a sudden realization, or did it slowly dawn on you? Or maybe some people still feel that way.

As a guy growing up in the 70s, my parents never talked about sex, but I got the general idea that sex was something men enjoyed, but that women didn't. I realized that women could enjoy sex about when I got to college, but it wasn't until I started dating a women who really loved sex that I understood that women could have as high sex drives as men.


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## Jellybeans

I wasn't taught it was bad or good. My parents didn't really talk to me about sex.

I do have an older aunt who told me when I was 18, "If you want to keep your man, turn into a wh-re in the bedroom." I was left open-mouthed as I processed my dear sweet aunt telling me this with total conviction. 

:rofl:


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## Jellybeans

richardsharpe said:


> I realized that women could enjoy sex about when I got to college, but it wasn't until I started dating a women who really loved sex that I understood that women could have as high sex drives as men.


Yes, yes, we can.


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## Giro flee

I was definitely taught that sex for women was bad. Women who had sex were *****s, women who were beautiful were *****s, women who wore short skirts were *****s and on and on and on.

And yes it negatively impacted my marriage. I've had a bunch of therapy, but that little voice is still inside my head. It is very quiet, and I can ignore it for the most part, but it is still there. It has taken years of therapy and effort to change my feelings, and I'm still not positive that it didn't completely ruin sex for me because I still have no spontaneous desire for sex. Is that just the way I am, or did the negative influence forever rewire my circuitry?


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## DoF

My parents or my country/school system have taught me absolutely NOTHING about sex.

I learned most of it from my brother/friends/porn etc.

I never EVER thought sex was bad or a chore though. It's a big part of my life and it's something that I enjoy and love.....BUT only with the right person.

I have 0 value for sex with no feelings, quite unappealing actually. But with someone I love? I'm in heaven.


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## SimplyAmorous

I was never taught it was bad at all..I may have heard others speak how it's something to endure.. but I myself was very orgasmic & had a ton of boy fantasies as a young girl going through puberty...dancing in my head was "going all the way"...so to me.. those women were a little crazy.. or not in love or something...nothing they said tore into my hot romantic dreams of "oneness" with a special man ...one could say.. 

BUT...what I seen in the world often turned my stomach.. how people F**cked each other with no emotion, or care.. hated each other afterwards, or didn't even remember each others name... babies born to those who wanted nothing to do with each other...this was COLD , empty and UGLY to me...not the way I envisioned having sex.. the bonding beauty I had swimming in my mind...something that would be lasting & true. 

Also watching my Mother have a nervous breakdown (after the divorce) -due to having sex with a variety of men- who basically used her & threw her away (she was just a piece of meat)....One did care for her but at that point, she didn't care for anyone ....I knew at a young age...I wanted nothing to do with men LIKE THAT... 

I had high hopes to find someone special to share my ALL with...heart, body, soul and mind...where I felt a thriving sex life is most definitely one of the most beautiful parts of being in love / married...


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## Adeline

I even grew up in the Christian church, and no never was under the impression that sex was bad. Parents actually never talked to me about it... left it up to church and school I guess! Church actually set into motion an excitement for it, a special thing between a man and a woman. I really grew up feeling that both men and women enjoyed it equally. To the point where I remember almost being surprised as I grew up to find out that not everyone did enjoy it, and all the complications within that and the stigmas against woman. I'm glad that even given the variables that aided in this knowledge for me actually did the opposite for others, that for me I grew up with a fairly healthy view on sex.


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## Pooh Bear

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I'm curious how many women were taught that sex is bad, or something you do "for" your husband as opposed to "with" your partner.
> 
> Has this changed much since when I was a kid (the late Jurassic).
> 
> Were you able to eventually overcome those feelings - was it a sudden realization, or did it slowly dawn on you? Or maybe some people still feel that way.
> 
> As a guy growing up in the 70s, my parents never talked about sex, but I got the general idea that sex was something men enjoyed, but that women didn't. I realized that women could enjoy sex about when I got to college, but it wasn't until I started dating a women who really loved sex that I understood that women could have as high sex drives as men.


My parents didn't talk about sex and so I grew up really embarrassed by it. All they really said was no sex before marriage, but my sister and I decided it was ok if you love someone.  

Embarrassement didn't actually change until recently when I had a husband who is more uncomfortable about sex than I am. His parents really drilled into him that sex is dirty and wrong and so he has a lot of issues with sex. So I have actually had to start becoming less embarrassed by it so that we can work on this together.


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## Fozzy

Lila said:


> Ha! I got that speech from my mother, LOL.
> 
> I was born in the 70s and my mother taught me that sex was something to be thoroughly enjoyed.....with the right man. She clearly did not want me to wait until marriage to experience sex but she did tell us to be choosy when selecting a partner. Someone who would cherish my sexuality and never judge me negatively for it, and who was just as committed to making the experience mutually pleasurable.
> 
> Advice served me well throughout my life. Even though I've never had a ONS, I've had great sex with plenty of lovers, of which my H is by far my favorite


I think this is excellent advice, and the same kind of thing I plan on telling my girls.


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## Fozzy

I think the sex talk should go hand in hand with the "healthy relationship" talk. But i'm a coot when it comes to these things.


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## jld

My mom told me sex was the original sin. I was curious about it anyway.

One of the problems with growing up in a strict religious home is the difficulty dealing with the guilt if you don't meet the expectations.


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## Fozzy

What a curious interpretation of a book that says nothing of the sort.


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## thefam

The only thing I was taught about sex was from my Dad: women who sleep around are not marriage material; and from my Mom that sex was for the institution of marriage only. Once I was engaged at age 19 I was constantly told by my Mother until the day I got married to never turn down my H for sex. That’s why I worked through my period of LD that came from the pill. Our Pastor teaches in couples enrichment that sex is the glue that holds the marriage together so we should have sex "early and often."

After my almost 10 years of marriage I finally understand my Mother's view regarding sex. She is a devout Christian who believes you should rock each others world in the bedroom.


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## staarz21

I wasn't taught it was good or bad. I was taught that if I did it, I would be a wh*re or a sl*t - whatever term was being used more at the time. 

The first time I had sex, I cried - not because it was painful, but because I was scared that I would be known as a sl*t.

I was taught that men only want one thing. That they use women for sex and if you aren't up to par, you'll be used just the one time and left. If you could measure up, they might come back or stay for a while, but ultimately, when they get bored - they leave. I was taught that men don't really like relationships and are only "putting up" with women for the sake of getting laid frequently. 

As I've aged, I realized that's not completely true for all men. However in my experience (and mine only), it has been true for most of the men I've encountered. I haven't been with that many men due to the fact that I didn't want to be called a sl*t. This made me put a lot of guys in the friend zone. I hung out with them all of the time and got to listen to their horrible talks about the women they slept with or were playing with. It was horrible and it further secured my thoughts in not wanting to enjoy sex that much with anyone. I guess it made me more picky in who I had sex with.

That isn't to say that I don't like sex, because I most certainly do!!! Everyday....a couple of times a day would be nice - just not possible right now with young kids at home! So, I can enjoy it - but I am married and not worried about the sl*t shaming.


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## SimplyAmorous

Pooh Bear said:


> My parents didn't talk about sex and so I grew up really embarrassed by it. All they really said was no sex before marriage, but my sister and I decided it was ok if you love someone.
> 
> Embarrassement didn't actually change until recently when I had a husband who is more uncomfortable about sex than I am. His parents really drilled into him that *sex is dirty and wrong* and so he has a lot of issues with sex. So I have actually had to start becoming less embarrassed by it so that we can work on this together.


This is the problem so I feel.. if we don't explain to our children what a beautiful place sex has in a healthy relationship.. we are doing them a grave disservice....but on the other hand.. sex is not something that should be taken lightly.. not all will agree with me on this.... but I/we will continue to teach our children there is a time and a place for such beauty...

It's not that the act itself is DIRTY.. it is what people do with it that makes it dirty.. how they handle it, throw it around.. when engaged in for selfish reasons...Like money is not dirty in itself either.. but it can be used for blackmail, etc...

So the MOTIVE can be dirty.. even if the act itself is not.. we can take anything potentially beautiful and bring disgrace to it....People are good for that !

Like RAPE...when a man just wants to "get off".... he may know the woman really LIKES him, wants to get to know him...but he lies to her in the moment...acts like he feels the same...then the next day, he never speaks to her again...and she's crushed.. 

I'd feel dirty if I engaged in that..I'd want to erase it from my psyche.. 

If 2 people agree to F*** and they can walk away not caring to ever see each other again.. they both wanted it , and no one gets hurt (the hooking up culture of today-the goal seems to be to NOT attach -personally I think this causes more issues in their future, but OK).. 

Now to me...that lifestyle is just not something I'd think was healthy.... but if no one is getting hurt, no babies are aborted or end up in foster care or abused...no STD's passed..I guess it's OK.. (though it still has the potential when emotions enter in, Birth control fails, etc)..



> *Lila said:* Mine is a boy and I'm already having anxiety over what that speech will sound like. For now all I have is "By all that is good and right, please WRAP IT UP!!!!! (a.k.a No glove, no love)


 We have 5 sons, for us.. it's more of an ongoing conversation.. they know it's so much more than "just putting a condom on it" though.. we talk about many aspects of sexuality.. it's emotional impact..how some can separate this.. how they would feel if ______ .. we talk about the various sexual views..(Romantic view, Plain sex view, Power view , expressive view)...we talk about how having causal sex can become a habitual lifestyle.. 

We do encourage getting to know a girl emotionally 1st & never to harm or hurt , to be a gentleman..and be careful to choose women who feel as they do in this .....our sons seem as their dad.. the "one woman" type.. the marrying type.... 

We are not religious..or pressuring.. we encourage debate, I truly want to hear HOW THEY FEEL..open dialog always.. it's not been an uncomfortable thing in our house .. very free flowing.. almost natural.. like "Yeah, that's my MOM!' sorta thing... our teen sons know I post on this forum too... they think it's pretty cool I enjoy the subject so much !


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## Holland

I was raised by an amazing mum who had strong feminist convictions. I was taught that I have equal worth as a human being, never taught that sex is to be enjoyed by men only at my expense. I was taught that I am of value as a person.

Maybe that is why so many of the weaker men are scared of feminism, because it promotes and encourages women to be equal, that they also deserve sexual pleasure. That surely would concern a non giving, selfish male lover.


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## Red Sonja

I grew up during the late Jurassic Period too. :rofl: 

I was taught, by my mother ... 

1. Sex and everything else about my body was natural and normal and, nothing to be ashamed of. 
2. A prerequisite for sex is mutual respect and caring.
3. Sex is a private experience.

I did have a religious upbringing (Christian church) but I mostly ignored it because none of it made sense to me. My father told me a few impossible stories about the physical anatomy of boys; I think it was intended to scare me into perpetual virginity but I ignored him too.

I have always enjoyed sex, aside from some "mechanical difficulties" during my first experience.


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## SimplyAmorous

BucksBunny said:


> OP as I thought some interesting reply’s maybe you would consider posting same question in men’s section. Going by some reply men can have some pretty mixed up stuff too. *How they reconcile getting told marry a good girl but want her to be a bad girl in bedroom stuff. * So many threads here are about I married a real sweet, quite, shy girl and she is not bouncing around the bed screaming the walls down, eh could that have some thing to do with her being the person you wanted to marry and her true personality and if she went all Nymph in the bedroom it would be false.


There is nothing wrong with the idea >> "I am a very sexual being but choose to wait for someone I dearly love then go *hog wild *with him or her"....unleashing it..and growing together.. 

It's the same thing for us women (at least for me)... I wanted a gentleman but also his being very horny & passionate (can I say BAD BOY ) *just for me*..

I find the concept the best of both worlds.. very romantic & beautiful.. ..this article captures my personal sexual views better than any I have ever read online to date. 








For the BEST SEX EVER Emotional Intimacy is key..here's why!









Maybe that would be an interesting thread.. to find an article that captures HOW we personally feel about sex... and post it....


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## richardsharpe

Good evening staarz21
That is very sad. I think there is a lot of variation in social groups. I have never had any of my friends say anything negative about a woman who had many partners. (OK, there may have been a slight bit of snickering - but in a good natured "wish it was me" sort of way). 







staarz21 said:


> snip
> 
> However in my experience (and mine only), it has been true for most of the men I've encountered. I haven't been with that many men due to the fact that I didn't want to be called a sl*t. This made me put a lot of guys in the friend zone. I hung out with them all of the time and got to listen to their horrible talks about the women they slept with or were playing with. It was horrible and it further secured my thoughts in not wanting to enjoy sex that much with anyone. I guess it made me more picky in who I had sex with.
> 
> That isn't to say that I don't like sex, because I most certainly do!!! Everyday....a couple of times a day would be nice - just not possible right now with young kids at home! So, I can enjoy it - but I am married and not worried about the sl*t shaming.


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## Anonymous07

I remember as a teen my mom talking about sex being something wives do to please their husbands, but I never really followed what my mom thought. Yes, that is what I was "taught" and I would always think about what ever she told me, but ultimately I always came up with my own ideas/values/convictions. I do agree with my mom on certain ideas(not sleeping around and waiting for someone you love before having sex, etc.), but in other areas we disagree(sex being for the man). I highly enjoy sex and have only ever had sex with my husband, which I am proud of. It's something special, only shared with him and shared often with him.


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## Pooh Bear

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is the problem so I feel.. if we don't explain to our children what a beautiful place sex has in a healthy relationship.. we are doing them a grave disservice....but on the other hand.. sex is not something that should be taken lightly.. not all will agree with me on this.... but I/we will continue to teach our children there is a time and a place for such beauty...
> 
> It's not that the act itself is DIRTY.. it is what people do with it that makes it dirty.. how they handle it, throw it around.. when engaged in for selfish reasons...Like money is not dirty in itself either.. but it can be used for blackmail, etc...
> 
> So the MOTIVE can be dirty.. even if the act itself is not.. we can take anything potentially beautiful and bring disgrace to it....People are good for that !
> 
> Like RAPE...when a man just wants to "get off".... he may know the woman really LIKES him, wants to get to know him...but he lies to her in the moment...acts like he feels the same...then the next day, he never speaks to her again...and she's crushed..
> 
> I'd feel dirty if I engaged in that..I'd want to erase it from my psyche..
> 
> If 2 people agree to F*** and they can walk away not caring to ever see each other again.. they both wanted it , and no one gets hurt (the hooking up culture of today-the goal seems to be to NOT attach -personally I think this causes more issues in their future, but OK)..
> 
> Now to me...that lifestyle is just not something I'd think was healthy.... but if no one is getting hurt, no babies are aborted or end up in foster care or abused...no STD's passed..I guess it's OK.. (though it still has the potential when emotions enter in, Birth control fails, etc)..
> 
> We have 5 sons, for us.. it's more of an ongoing conversation.. they know it's so much more than "just putting a condom on it" though.. we talk about many aspects of sexuality.. it's emotional impact..how some can separate this.. how they would feel if ______ .. we talk about the various sexual views..(Romantic view, Plain sex view, Power view , expressive view)...we talk about how having causal sex can become a habitual lifestyle..
> 
> We do encourage getting to know a girl emotionally 1st & never to harm or hurt , to be a gentleman..and be careful to choose women who feel as they do in this .....our sons seem as their dad.. the "one woman" type.. the marrying type....
> 
> We are not religious..or pressuring.. we encourage debate, I truly want to hear HOW THEY FEEL..open dialog always.. it's not been an uncomfortable thing in our house .. very free flowing.. almost natural.. like "Yeah, that's my MOM!' sorta thing... our teen sons know I post on this forum too... they think it's pretty cool I enjoy the subject so much !


Yes. I agree with everything you said. Wow, you have 5 boys. I have a 9 month old baby boy. He is amazing. I love my little boy.


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## Pooh Bear

badsanta said:


> We have both and it is funny with my wife being Catholic because she is already talking with our daughter that she needs to reserve herself for "the one" and not play around with sex. But when it comes to our son she is a little conflicted. She looked at me one day and said, "I want my boy to have a good time when he grows up!"
> 
> I think that is one of the things that my wife likes about me, as I was a bit of a bad boy when she met me, and her previous boyfriend was very religious and active with the church.
> 
> Perhaps a combination of little good and little bad tend to balance each other out.


That's sad for your daughter. I think it's important to give kids the same message regardless of whether they are boys or girls. They should be able to embrace their sexuality and respect themselves and the person they choose to have sex with.


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## Fozzy

My wife was brought up catholic and got the double standard also. Her brother was pretty much allowed to run wild, while she was on lock-down 24/7. She still resents her parents for it today.


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## Fozzy

badsanta said:


> I'm not that worried as she is very educated at this point. My wife basically educates her that from a religious standpoint, the topic has to be treated respectfully towards one's wellbeing and not something to do just because it is fun. She is a teenager and the topic is very relevant.
> 
> As for our son, he is much younger and the topic is not relevant yet for him. My wife was very proud when she came home from the pediatricians office to find out that he will likely grow to about six and a half feet tall. *My wife told me that day, "well I did not marry a man that is tall and handsome, but at least I managed to make one*!"




not cool.


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## Pooh Bear

badsanta said:


> I'm not that worried as she is very educated at this point. My wife basically educates her that from a religious standpoint, the topic has to be treated respectfully towards one's wellbeing and not something to do just because it is fun. She is a teenager and the topic is very relevant.
> 
> As for our son, he is much younger and the topic is not relevant yet for him. My wife was very proud when she came home from the pediatricians office to find out that he will likely grow to about six and a half feet tall. My wife told me that day, "well I did not marry a man that is tall and handsome, but at least I managed to make one!"


It sounds like your son, when old enough, will get a different message is what I am saying. Go out and have fun with sex! I think it is kind of strange. While boys are being taught to go out and sew their wild oats, girls get the message, no sex before marriage. Who are all these boys having sex with? Girls who feel guilty about their sexuality? So while the boys are feeling good about having sex with as many people as they want, the girls are feeling bad for being sexual beings. It's really unhealthy for both parties. 

I felt guilty about sex when I was younger. So when I was involved with men I had a relationship with, I felt guilty about being sexual. When I was raped, I felt like a total s**t. Nice girls don't do that. I felt like it was my fault. What could I have done to prevent it? I realize now that in that situation you are just surviving, so whatever you do to stay safe is what needs to be done. 

I think if you are going to tell your kids no sex before marriage, it needs to be the same message for the boys and the girls. I don't think I will premise it as no sex before marriage with my son. I want him to value himself and his sexuality and value the partners he chooses to engage with. And I want him to be safe and respect boundries. That is so much more than just telling a child no sex before marriage.


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## MaritimeGuy

Pooh Bear said:


> I think if you are going to tell your kids no sex before marriage, it needs to be the same message for the boys and the girls. I don't think I will premise it as no sex before marriage with my son. I want him to value himself and his sexuality and value the partners he chooses to engage with. And I want him to be safe and respect boundries. That is so much more than just telling a child no sex before marriage.


I agree it should be the same message for both. It's healthy and part of being human.

In my mind it's not that you necessarily have to wait for the one and only...it's that the act itself is a significant one that has potentially serious repercussions. It could conceive a child, it could transmit a disease, it could hurt someone, it could embarrass someone...it could break someone's heart. It's something that should only be acted on responsibly. 

Before engaging in sex with someone you need to know both yourself and your partner well enough to know you will be mature and responsible about it. If you have any doubt about either you need to wait.


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## SurpriseMyself

When I was 17, my father asked me if I was having sex with my then boyfriend. I was honest and said I was. (Good or bad, I don't lie. Especially to my parents!).

He made me call my boyfriend and break up with him that evening. Not sure if that contributed to my issues with sex or not, but it sure sent a message. It wasn't for religious reasons, it was simply because my dad didn't like the boy I was dating and didn't want me to end up pregnant. He said if I got pregnant it would ruin the family.


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## Holland

I have kids of both genders and am raising them without a double standard.

Their school has an amazing sex/life/health ed program that goes for a few years. The sex content is wrapped up in respect for self and of other people, do not do anything you don't want and do not force others to do what they don't.
It covers the emotional aspects of sexual relationships. Overall it is a very open forum and a great program.


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## arbitrator

*I wasn't really taught that it was good or bad, per se!

The only certain intonation from my old man was that "if I ever succeeded in knocking some girl up, I could damn well count on one thing ~ having my plate broken!"*


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## BucksBunny

Santa that hurt but all your post here your bigger than that so so you know the drill count to 10 hold it in, forget it, get a good nights sleep clear your head and casual explain or ask why or what that meant don't make your own mind up as a slap to you. Could have been boiling with pride and tounge all over the place should have a been a WE in there proud of YOUR both boy no foul there a mother having pride in her son she should have cut you in as well but could have been just pride and glow speaking. We don't have kids but you have made me think things I have done I should thank H for and forgot a big part was the stable life we built.

No big deal a gental word and clarification will sort it I am sure. If it hurt ok to say it she could have been flying I would be if my kids were fit and healthy. 101 things reception called him sir and your wife got a thrill he is seen not as a kid, doctor said some thing nice or a nurse (sad to say we are being one we are terrible insicere at times to get job done).

You know tomorrow is a new day so let it go and if you have to follow it it up gental and your laughinging at your self by lunch time over a beer it is Friday tomorrow. Have a great weekend and work any thing out.


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## SimplyAmorous

Pooh Bear said:


> *Yes. I agree with everything you said. Wow, you have 5 boys. I have a 9 month old baby boy. He is amazing. I love my little boy. *


Very special time in your lives.. savor every moment, take lots of photos....








Yes, I am surrounded by Testosterone...though our sons are pretty calm...they've been a joy to raise... it just goes toooo fast...and we have 1 .... she's got more attitude , that's for sure ...(Ages ranging from 7 to 24)....

Enjoy that little one Pooh Bear !!



> *Pooh Bear said:* I think if you are going to tell your kids no sex before marriage, *it needs to be the same message for the boys and the girls*. I don't think I will premise it as no sex before marriage with my son.* I want him to value himself and his sexuality and value the partners he chooses to engage with. And I want him to be safe and respect boundries. That is so much more than just telling a child no sex before marriage.*


 Couldn't agree more so... :smthumbup:... our sons get the same message as our daughters.. I've thought of doing a thread on this.. the subject of our teens entering puberty.... when Testosterone is raging / when their minds feel hi-jacked drawn to the female form - as this will RISE in EVERY "hormone healthy" BOY !! 

How do we handle as parents, what messages have we sent / exampled....do we just allow whatever sex education the school has given, their friends & far too often accessible PORN ...and OH they will LOOK!.. or have we been approachable.. sought their feelings / opinions along the way so we KNOW how our teens tick, where their heads are at, what they are into, how they feel about treating a girl.. what they want from a relationship.. or none at all, just a good time..... 

Does this mean they are incapable of being alone with the opposite sex, should we lock our girls up.. .. I say NO !! Stringent rules on either side will only cause rebellion / encourage lying / hiding...feeling parents are impossible to talk to..

It's something I feel very strongly about... I feel we can allow a "safe place" for our young people ... nothing wrong with a little young love, but Yes.. to put the brakes on the sexual... focus on having fun, sharing experiences.. like friends would do.. keeping some of the innocence, the mystery alive.. anticipation.... to see where it may lead.. our 1st experiences with the opposite sex can "affect" us in a myriad of ways.... so let it be something good.. a precursor to things to come.. 

We are in the midst of 2 teen sons (16 & 17 yrs)...2 Girlfriends...very small hiccups along the way ... myself & H has been very pleased with how they have handled themselves ...we give them much freedom as they have shown much responsibility ... their girlfriends are wonderful...We treat them as part of our family ...

I want for both to have something GOOD to look back upon.. (even if they'd break up down the line due to incompatibilities along the way).....it's still* a taste* of a real relationship.. it's part of the maturing process...


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## BucksBunny

That's the way to go don't tell us house like yours or Kin you can't roll with the punch. Buy the boy an ice cream for making his Ma proud at Dr's hang on January cup of soup is better oh what ever is your way and give your wife a hug say our son all that is nedd.


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## SimplyAmorous

badsanta said:


> *OMG, when my wife said to me I almost fell in the floor laughing! We all show our affection in different ways, my wife and I enjoy throwing creative insults at each other. The day she stops insulting me, then I'll be worried! I actually love it when she insults me, it turns me on a little, and I beg her for more*


Yeah reading what you said, I was feeling bad too.. imaging silence on your end.. like "SLAM"!....you needed to give the other side of this.. how it really played down... So she was just messing with you.. you know she doesn't REALLY feel this way... if those were "sh1t test's"... you'd pass with flying colors BadSanta !

We act something like this too, making fun of each others quirks... we all need a little Mud slinging banter now & then to liven things up....There is always "some LINE" in these things of course.....in it's delivery or what mood one is showing, if it's playful or something else.. but to know the twisted humor of a friend , or lover...it's even "endearing".. God , we'd miss it if they were gone!

Our 3rd son & GF get on like this.. if one heard the things they said outside of the context of their devious humor style....you's think ...."HUH "....but they "get it" and like it. Then she'll turn around & say something/ write something about him that is over the top mushy & beautiful.. I guess it tends to even things out.. 

Good chemistry in that.. when you have both going on.. I tend to see couples like this VERY OPEN with each other. I bet you & the wife are....you'd have to be.



> *PS: I was the youngest in a large family and my older siblings and cousins always picked on me, so that is just part of who I am. I loved it as it was kind of like family hazing, but don't worry about me, I would always get em back one way or another*!


 I bet you did!


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## turnera

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I'm curious how many women were taught that sex is bad, or something you do "for" your husband as opposed to "with" your partner.
> 
> Has this changed much since when I was a kid (the late Jurassic).
> 
> Were you able to eventually overcome those feelings - was it a sudden realization, or did it slowly dawn on you? Or maybe some people still feel that way.
> 
> As a guy growing up in the 70s, my parents never talked about sex, but I got the general idea that sex was something men enjoyed, but that women didn't. I realized that women could enjoy sex about when I got to college, but it wasn't until I started dating a women who really loved sex that I understood that women could have as high sex drives as men.


My dad moved out when I was 12 (1970). My 15 year old brother 'became' my dad. He began telling me that it was bad and if I did it, I was bad, too. By the time I was 15 and guys were pressuring me, I tried to say no and got soundly dumped by every guy I said no to. Instantly. So I started saying yes. And hating myself, AND the act. It's never changed.


----------



## WandaJ

Holland said:


> I have kids of both genders and am raising them without a double standard.
> 
> Their school has an amazing sex/life/health ed program that goes for a few years. The sex content is wrapped up in respect for self and of other people, do not do anything you don't want and do not force others to do what they don't.
> It covers the emotional aspects of sexual relationships. Overall it is a very open forum and a great program.


that can not be in the USA , lol. My believe in abstinence only!


----------



## turnera

lol, you should see it in Texas!


----------



## ocotillo

WandaJ said:


> that can not be in the USA , lol. My believe in abstinence only!


Yes. The sexual repression in the U.S. is a weird social phenomenon. We have Christian religious that to this very day, teach that sex is purely reproductive and that oral sex is a sin.


----------



## turnera

Well, it started with the types of settlers who came here, but lately it's been ramped up by the ultra-conservative political faction that's decided it's their moral duty to get everyone to believe as they do.

*ducking*


----------



## Fozzy

I don't think it's limited so much to the USA. I think it's broader than that, incorporating MOST of North and Central America (Canada gets a pass, because what else are you supposed to do under 10 feet of snow).


----------



## ocotillo

Fozzy said:


> I don't think it's limited so much to the USA. I think it's broader than that, incorporating MOST of North and Central America (Canada gets a pass, because what else are you supposed to do under 10 feet of snow).


I don't think I've seen a lot of this in Hispanic culture. Even a brief perusal of Univision or a similar network shows a sensuality completely alien to the Bible Belt in the U.S. In border states, you can observe Anglo and Hispanic congregations within the exact same denomination side by side and the differences are sometimes quite striking.


----------



## Pooh Bear

turnera said:


> My dad moved out when I was 12 (1970). My 15 year old brother 'became' my dad. He began telling me that it was bad and if I did it, I was bad, too. By the time I was 15 and guys were pressuring me, I tried to say no and got soundly dumped by every guy I said no to. Instantly. So I started saying yes. And hating myself, AND the act. It's never changed.


I'm sorry your experience with sex has been so bad. You still don't like it?


----------



## Pooh Bear

ocotillo said:


> I don't think I've seen a lot of this in Hispanic culture. Even a brief perusal of Univision or a similar network shows a sensuality completely alien to the Bible Belt in the U.S. In border states, you can observe Anglo and Hispanic congregations within the exact same denomination side by side and the differences are sometimes quite striking.


Yeah, but that's all exploitation stuff. That happens in all forms of American media. Television is not a really good judge of what is going on with actual people.


----------



## turnera

Pooh Bear said:


> I'm sorry your experience with sex has been so bad. You still don't like it?


I endure it to keep my H happy. I dread the days when I know he's going to make a move. And yes, I've told him and asked for less frequency. Married 35 years, frequency of 2-3 times a week the entire time, now it's down to about once a week.


----------



## ocotillo

Pooh Bear said:


> Yeah, but that's all exploitation stuff. That happens in all forms of American media. Television is not a really good judge of what is going on with actual people.


--Not sure what you mean by, "Exploitation stuff." A shapely female meteorologist presenting a primetime weather forecast in a bikini is *absolutely not* the only thing I had in mind although that does make a good example of something you will never see in the Bible Belt.  

Television is only one facet of the entertainment modern cultures produce and consume and it would be foolish to base a conclusion solely on that, which is why I fleshed the observation out with a real world example of Anglo and Hispanic congregations within the exact same ultra conservative Christian sect having substantially different standards of dress and conduct between the genders. 

One of the simplest and most obvious examples here is dance. Religious leaders can forbid young people to dance together because it leads to, "Fornication", etc., etc. Anglos often go along with this and again, there are real life examples right here in the U.S. today. Try pulling this stunt in a strongly Hispanic culture and see what happens.


----------



## Miss Taken

I think one of the things that my mother did right was give me a healthy attitude about sex and masturbation. She was very open to talking and explaining more difficult subjects such as sex and in turn it made me open to talking about it with my own kids.

Our son actually feels more comfortable about asking me questions than he does his father. Not that my spouse is closed off or uninformed about it but he (our son) is less embarrassed about talking to me about it right now. I suspect it may change when he is out of puberty but for now that's how it's been.

I was never told by her that is was bad or dirty. And when I was an exceptionally randy teen, suddenly spending a lot of time alone in the bathroom or my room (girls can be just as bad as teen boys in this way lol) she never once made me feel embarrassed or dirty or ashamed about it. In addition to talks about loving relationships, responsibility, contraceptives, STD's and how pregnancy occurs she also explained that it was physically/emotionally enjoyable and normal to enjoy sex/masturbation. 

I think parents can do a lot of good talking about all aspects about sex with their daughters. Of course, keeping things age appropriate and being careful not to give more information than is required/asked for. However, I think that daughters especially need not be raised to fear or feel ashamed of their sexuality. Society will do that enough as chastity in women is still encouraged and anything deviating from that is often frowned upon and publicly shamed.

Perhaps "encourage" is not the right word but at least, not discouraging young women from masturbating/exploring their bodies in private is probably a really healthy thing. I know that I better enjoy sex knowing and in turn being able to help teach my partner what works best for me, the various ways I can be brought to orgasm etc. I think teaching girls that it's dirty to touch themselves can do a disservice to their sex lives, marital sex lives in the future. I have read stories on TAM from women who have never had a CLITORAL orgasm (nevermind vaginal as those are more rare) with their husbands/in their marriages spanning decades. I just think how preventable if women's sexuality was not so taboo growing up and she had felt free enough to explore this by herself and learn her body before getting married.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Stunt Penis said:


> ...yet, those same Christians, in other countries (such as Italy) will routinely accept behavior which in the USA is considered "sinful" as perfectly acceptable (e.g. an Italian man having a mistress).
> 
> This begs the question: *Why are Americans so sexually repressed?*


When people ask these questions. ..I often wonder ..in their world view.. what are you calling repressed...

Anyone who ________________________ ? What pushes them over the line into that BOX ??

Anyone who belongs to a church and feels there is some value in waiting till marriage , something sacred about that... or only if they speak about Hell fire, sin, the judgement of God ... 

If you could wave a magic wand and the world would be FREE and healthy sexually.. THE END OF REPRESSION...what would it look like?? Where is porn ? Where are our teens... college students.. is the "hooking up culture" a step in the right direction or wrong??

Would we still have Marriage -where the 2 shall be joined as One.. I always looked upon that "ONE" as symbolic of the 2 being joined sexually...I seen beauty in this ... is there something wrong with my view ?

One thing that baffles me is.. we seem to think before we marry we should be able to sleep around to our hearts content, no big deal (this IS the push today)...but once you marry.. there is no greater betrayal than sleeping with another.. so in this way.. SEX IS VERY SIGNIFICANT... it has some sacred value between 2 people .. yet if we live as though this is not a big deal for many yrs before marriage, emotions /attachment just not necessary.... how does this make sense I ask....and furthermore how does it affect us ??? 


So I can resonate with SOME of what christians are saying.. when they focus on the emotional and bonding aspects of being with one special person.. seeking marriage.. ..but not giving a cold lecture or hell fire & brimstone on premarital sinning..I come more from a Romantic view of it.. if this makes any sense at all..


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening Turnera
I'm sorry you had such bad early experiences with sex. It really is worth trying to get to the point where you can enjoy it with your husband. Is he willing to do try to please you? Does he know that you aren't enjoying it? Have you tried counseling / therapy to see if you can learn to enjoy?

Sex is such an important part of a happy relationship - this really matters. Just "enduring" it for him is not how things should be. 




turnera said:


> I endure it to keep my H happy. I dread the days when I know he's going to make a move. And yes, I've told him and asked for less frequency. Married 35 years, frequency of 2-3 times a week the entire time, now it's down to about once a week.


----------



## Fozzy

ocotillo said:


> I don't think I've seen a lot of this in Hispanic culture. Even a brief perusal of Univision or a similar network shows a sensuality completely alien to the Bible Belt in the U.S. In border states, you can observe Anglo and Hispanic congregations within the exact same denomination side by side and the differences are sometimes quite striking.


I believe you and I hail from the same neck of the woods actually. True, Univision, Telemundo etc have a lot of scantily clad tarts jumping up and down at the slightest provocation (SABADO GIGANTE!), but the home life is often quite different. Boys are often encouraged to be macho, chase tail, etc. But girls are given a VERY different message from their families. The double standard is alive and well.


----------



## ocotillo

SimplyAmorous said:


> When people ask these questions. ..I often wonder ..in their world view.. what are you calling repressed...


SA,

Here are some examples of what I would consider sexually repressed:

Forbidding all forms of oral sex.

Forbidding positions other than missionary.

Teaching that sex is only for reproduction

Teaching that the "Fruit" of the Tree of Knowledge was a metaphor for sex. (i.e. Sex was the "Original Sin")

Forbidding all forms of artificial conception. (e.g. In-vitro fertilization.)

Demanding unusually conservative standards of dress. (e.g. Below the knee skirts on women and loose fitting pants on men.)

Forbidding boys and girls to dance together. 

Forbidding masturbation among both boys and girls.

Unusual standards of acceptable entertainment. (e.g. Even a touching love scene between a married couple is still taboo.) ​
--Not sure how old you are, SA, but I'm old enough to remember when it was considered indecent to show a married couple simply reclining on the same bed on television.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

SimplyAmorous said:


> If you could wave a magic wand and the world would be FREE and healthy sexually.. THE END OF REPRESSION...what would it look like?? Where is porn ? Where are our teens... college students.. is the "hooking up culture" a step in the right direction or wrong??


That's a very interesting question.

I suppose at the very least it would mean a world where we could openly talk about sex with a mind to all of us doing it better. Much like we talk about nutrition, financial planning, exercise etc...sharing knowledge and best practices to achieve success.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

ocotillo said:


> SA,
> 
> Here are some examples of what I would consider sexually repressed:
> 
> *Forbidding all forms of oral sex.
> 
> Forbidding positions other than missionary.
> 
> Teaching that sex is only for reproduction
> 
> Teaching that the "Fruit" of the Tree of Knowledge was a metaphor for sex. (i.e. Sex was the "Original Sin")
> 
> Forbidding all forms of artificial conception. (e.g. In-vitro fertilization.)
> 
> Demanding unusually conservative standards of dress. (e.g. Below the knee skirts on women and loose fitting pants on men.)
> 
> Forbidding boys and girls to dance together.
> 
> Forbidding masturbation among both boys and girls.
> 
> Unusual standards of acceptable entertainment. (e.g. Even a touching love scene between a married couple is still taboo.)
> *​
> 
> --Not sure how old you are, SA, but I'm old enough to remember when it was considered indecent to show a married couple simply reclining on the same bed on television.


Thank you very much for this.....I couldn't agree more with you ON EVERY SINGLE POINT ...the touching love scenes - I EAT THOSE UP - I often wish they were more erotic! 

If this is what everyone means.. I am SO with you all... I don't care for a lot of faith bashing though....I tend to be sensitive to this as many of our friends are Christians.. not terribly uptight, we talk very openly about SEX.. topics such as these... they are not all the same. 

I was born in '66... I wasn't really shielded from much of anything by my parents, my Mom exposed me to TOO MUCH.. which had it's effects on another scale.. I had to wade through the mixed messages.

Now my Husband's Mom would do that.. she's let him watch the sickest horror film , think nothing of it if he was in the room.. but Oh if there was some kissing.. she'd shew him out.. I doubt he has seen much , if any physical affection between his parents.. It's something I feel strongly we SHOULD display before our kids. a light flirtatious banter.... when he comes home he kisses me.. Yes, that's good!!! 







ocotillo!!


----------



## norajane

SimplyAmorous said:


> Now my Husband's Mom would do that.. she's let him watch the sickest horror film , think nothing of it if he was in the room.. but Oh if there was some kissing.. she'd shew him out.. *I doubt he has seen much , if any physical affection between his parents.. It's something I feel strongly we SHOULD display before our kids.* a light flirtatious banter.... when he comes home he kisses me.. Yes, that's good!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ocotillo!!


:iagree:

My parents taught me virtually nothing about sex except to not have sex before marriage and absolutely not to get pregnant. :nono:

However, they were 22 when I was born, so still quite young while I was growing up, and I saw lots of affection between them. And then there were all those Saturday mornings and Sunday afternoons where they stuck me in front of the tv and locked their bedroom door...

I at least learned that sex was fun and something married people like to do together. 

The hard part for me was learning to enjoy sex (beyond just the excitement of having sex) and actually have orgasms with a partner. It took me a long time, and I thought I was broken since orgasms did not come easily to me. Of course, I was expecting to orgasm during PIV, and that it would be as instantaneous as in books and movies.


----------



## Pooh Bear

badsanta said:


> As for the US mentality, reminds me so much of the SNL skit where the Republican Convention decided to launch their own brand of tampons for women.
> 
> https://screen.yahoo.com/g-o-b-tampons-000000075.html


That's awesome!


----------



## Pooh Bear

turnera said:


> I endure it to keep my H happy. I dread the days when I know he's going to make a move. And yes, I've told him and asked for less frequency. Married 35 years, frequency of 2-3 times a week the entire time, now it's down to about once a week.


That makes me so sad.


----------



## turnera

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Turnera
> I'm sorry you had such bad early experiences with sex. It really is worth trying to get to the point where you can enjoy it with your husband. Is he willing to do try to please you? Does he know that you aren't enjoying it? Have you tried counseling / therapy to see if you can learn to enjoy?
> 
> Sex is such an important part of a happy relationship - this really matters. Just "enduring" it for him is not how things should be.


richard, my H is THE BEST when it comes to making it good for me. He never goes first, always waits until I've been taken care of and he does it very well. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what goes on in there, except that I feel bad about ME doing it. I've tried therapy for it, but it's deeply ingrained, too many reasons to explain. Trust me, I know all that. It's just the programming of my childhood (and first fiance) that kind of ruined it for me. Plus I think (but have never tried to find out) that something might have happened between me and my dad. So there's that.


----------



## turnera

Lila said:


> Shell shocked is the best that I can come up with to describe what I experienced when I first arrived on campus. I just kept thinking "why are they covering up their skin so much? Aren't they hot?":scratchhead: I was also left wondering why people weren't dancing at my first fraternity party, LOL.


My DD24's best friend and roommate in college was very religious. She hung out with the religious kids, who were free to hand out criticism to ANYONE who didn't fit their standard. One time this girl showed up at a function in 100 degree weather wearing pants and a sweatshirt and when DD asked her to take off the sweatshirt, she said she couldn't, or else 'the group' would start going off on her for revealing too much skin. One guy in the group actually called another girl a 'harlot' for wearing shorts to class. That's how bad it is in the Bible Belt.


----------



## turnera

norajane said:


> Of course, I was expecting to orgasm during PIV, and that it would be as instantaneous as in books and movies.


lol

Yeah, that took me a long while to figure out, too.


----------



## BucksBunny

norajane said:


> :iagree:
> 
> 
> 
> and that it would be as instantaneous as in books and movies.


That hits home with me apart from the act well it was not like the book and no one mentioned I had to change the sheets in the morning either. 

I only presume they cut that from the movie.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

badsanta said:


> *I'll try to answer... Well I once read a great deal about the first US African American female surgeon general, Joycelyn Edlers.*
> 
> Joycelyn Elders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> *She believed that young women should have ACCESS to healthcare and be educated in what it takes to PREVENT abortions and teenage pregnancy in ways other than just abstinence only programs. To make a very long story short she thought that in order to protect young women from poverty and other problems caused by teenage pregnancies that there should be at least be a debate if the topic of masturbation should be addressed by the public school system as part of sexual health. ...Yeah, she was quickly fired! *


That's funny you mention her ....I've mentioned her a few times in threads here .... can't say I ever spent much time reading about her life... but I was very against the backlash she got for speaking UP for masturbation. ...GOOD FOR HER [email protected]#$ ....I searched for that old post & found it......still on this subject.. "repression" ...teen years type experiences ...... 



> *Simplyamorous said:* being raised going to church (off & on) and just how this sort of thing is so deplorably hush hush ....it can play on one's mind..it's not something our parents would bring up for sure...(though I have graced it kinda jokingly with our sons - not much is off the table in our house)...
> 
> In my youth...I did happen upon "*The Joy of Sex*" in Dad & Step Mom's bedroom (yeah I was looking)...God help my kids what they'll find on the shelves of mine...("Tickle His Pickle", Sex on the brain, Squirms, screams & squirts, the Hardness factor, Built for sex ", 365 sex positions, etc etc)...
> 
> But finding "the Joy of sex" ... it's not like at that young age, these visuals turned me on, it was a bit shocking actually...yet it is a human URGE & craving for sure..and good for understanding our bodies..
> 
> I found if dismaying when yrs ago Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders was fired for speaking on Masturbation... people came out with pitch forks after her...really all I seen was her suggesting this was better than teens engaging in riskier sexual behaviors... to self love.. to embrace it...taken from this article..
> 
> Surgeon General Is Fired Joycelyn Elders Has Been Controversial. Her Remark On Masturbation Was The Last Straw. - she said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "I think that is something that is a part of human sexuality, and it's a part of something that perhaps should be taught," she said in front of 200 people. "But we've not even taught our children the very basics. And I feel that we have tried ignorance for a very long time, and it's time we try education."
> 
> In a telephone interview with the Associated Press from her home outside Washington yesterday, Elders said she had intended to relate her belief that students should be taught that masturbation is a natural part of human sexuality - not that youths should be taught how to masturbate.
> 
> "Heavens, no. That's not what I was trying to say," she said. "You can't teach people how to do that, just like you can't teach them how to have sex."
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her for speaking out!!....just another example of the ongoing TABOO.... I've also seen some articles in christian circles that are completely outrageous in regards to this which promotes shame...then there are those who suggest it is healthy, good , no condemnation Example >>
> 
> Teens and Masturbation.. .. but then it gets REAL MURKY because it goes on to condemn sexual fantasies.. explaining ANY IMPURE thoughts is sinning...therefore enter Dirtiness/ shame for our thoughts..
> 
> I am no longer a Christian but I feel this is pretty unattainable and for that matter, it's just not going to happen..even suggesting " A person can focus their heart on Jesus swinging a hammer at a construction site".. I really :rofl: reading this.. like any young boy's mind is going to go here over whacking it to the hot cheerleader next door ...
> 
> Can people just be REAL please.. I am sure the author of that silly article, also had naked beauties running through his head in his youth too!! what a shame the church makes sinning so much FUN...
> 
> If we can't have some sexual fantasy , I am afraid we'd severely repress ourselves.. and that I would not call healthy.. so this is my long winded view on that.
Click to expand...


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening turnera
All I can suggest is that you not give up hope. 

Do you physically enjoy sex but feel bad emotionally about it, or do you not get physical pleasure either? Do you enjoy non-sexual physical intimacy?



turnera said:


> richard, my H is THE BEST when it comes to making it good for me. He never goes first, always waits until I've been taken care of and he does it very well. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what goes on in there, except that I feel bad about ME doing it. I've tried therapy for it, but it's deeply ingrained, too many reasons to explain. Trust me, I know all that. It's just the programming of my childhood (and first fiance) that kind of ruined it for me. Plus I think (but have never tried to find out) that something might have happened between me and my dad. So there's that.


----------



## turnera

richard, that's a long, complicated reply needed. Suffice it to say, we're surviving.


----------



## MaritimeGuy

turnera said:


> My DD24's best friend and roommate in college was very religious. She hung out with the religious kids, who were free to hand out criticism to ANYONE who didn't fit their standard. One time this girl showed up at a function in 100 degree weather wearing pants and a sweatshirt and when DD asked her to take off the sweatshirt, she said she couldn't, or else 'the group' would start going off on her for revealing too much skin. One guy in the group actually called another girl a 'harlot' for wearing shorts to class. That's how bad it is in the Bible Belt.


The irony is the bible belt probably has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy. Repressing something doesn't make it go away...only means it's done in secret with less information. In some cases may even encourage it as it makes it forbidden fruit.


----------



## ocotillo

MaritimeGuy said:


> The irony is the bible belt probably has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy. Repressing something doesn't make it go away...only means it's done in secret with less information. In some cases may even encourage it as it makes it forbidden fruit.


I think that ties in directly to Lila's observation:



Lila said:


> Anyways, what made all of this so strange to me was that although I was more outwardly sexually expressive (not repressed) - through my dress and personality - than many of my fellow freshman female classmates, I was still a virgin. Most of my "American" friends could not understand this at all, whereas my hispanic friends had no problem with it.


Less repression does not automatically equate to more promiscuity.


----------



## Faithful Wife

I was allowed to be sort of a free range child in many respects, including my own sexuality and my ideas about it. I think it was evident to my parents and everyone else in my family that they were going to have to tie me to a post if they didn't want me running wild. Apparently it was too much effort to get me tied up because I did run free.

Occasionally my mother would wring her hands and make cautionary speeches but it didn't affect me.

I wanted sex and I went for it as soon as I could figure out how.


----------



## NobodySpecial

My Mom's attitude was that it was a distasteful chore that you did cheerfully out of love.


----------



## heartsbeating

My mother gave me a short talk around 'your body is a temple'. It was perhaps cheesy but the message was to respect myself - not in terms of waiting for marriage, not meaning that sex was something to give, but rather to walk my own path instead of someone else's ideals. She also said that boys could be sensitive too and to demonstrate respect back. Other times she said sex was overrated, she didn't understand what the fuss was about and readily termed herself a prude. We didn't talk about it much more than that. One of her friends was completely open about sex and this left my mother a bit shocked at times whereas I loved that this older woman was talking about lingerie and how she loved sex with her husband. She was quick to laugh and had a playfulness about her that I admired. 

A guy-friend shared that he'd been in a relationship with a woman in her 20s and how stockings/lingerie were a great thing haha. That did influence me to start exploring lingerie. But at dating age, I was somewhat guarded because I didn't want to be hurt emotionally - it couldn't just be sex for me. I'd observed friends who felt emotionally hurt when it had just been about sex for the guy they were with. However my view on sex was that it was to be fun, connecting, and freeing and I felt that sensuality and being able to express that, was just part of my personality...but I also needed the security and love of sharing with someone who gave a damn about me, as I did them. My views aren't to wait for marriage. I don't believe in soul-mates. I did wait for that someone special though. Mutual respect, care and admiration, as well as the chemistry, seems to allow me to be free of inhibitions and have peace of mind.

Although I haven't myself, I understand how some might approach sex for the thrills and spills of it and nothing more needed. I'll admit I can be flirtatious, I love sex and sharing desire...but I need to be cherished and love giving that to another too. I wasn't taught sex was good or bad but feel that I was given somewhat of a healthy foundation (or as best as mama hearts could offer given her own view of sex) to then figure out the rest myself.


----------



## heartsbeating

ocotillo said:


> Yes. The sexual repression in the U.S. is a weird social phenomenon. We have Christian religious that to this very day, teach that sex is purely reproductive and that oral sex is a sin.


Whah?

I guess it feels so good, it must be a sin!


----------



## heartsbeating

turnera said:


> I endure it to keep my H happy. I dread the days when I know he's going to make a move. And yes, I've told him and asked for less frequency. Married 35 years, frequency of 2-3 times a week the entire time, now it's down to about once a week.


I'm curious what you teach your daughter about sex?


----------



## turnera

She doesn't know anything about it, if that's what you mean. I've taught her since she was old enough to know about sex that it was completely natural and good and to be savored (but only with the right person, at the right time, and for the right reason). 

I taught her that her first priority was to herself, to get through high school and college without being sidelined by a boy or a baby and that, after that, go for it. If she was going to have sex during that period, to be sure she's being safe and protecting against pregnancy. I told her to ask me anything, and that I would never judge her or embarrass her (and I haven't).

I told her that boys in high school were for having fun with (not sexwise), for going on dates with and just having fun. Not to get serious with any of them because most high school romances never last because the human brain isn't done developing until about age 25 and when you think you're in love at 17 or 18, you'll be shocked to discover by 20 you've changed who you are and have nothing left in common. I told her college guys are for trying on to see what kind of personality fits you best, but best not to settle or get too serious, as you might end up wanting to move to separate parts of the country and who has to give up what they want?

She was a virgin until 20, by choice - no one was worth it. Turned down a LOT of guys in college cos she was too busy studying and no one met her standards. Dated only about 7-9 months in college. Only started dating seriously 6 months ago to a guy who met nearly all her qualifications (a real keeper!), and she's having a blast in her first real adult relationship, sex and all. I help her pick out lingerie, give her tips...she's loving it. She's getting all the right signals about sex and romance and I love it.

Oh, and just about every one of her friends, at 24, has had several abortions, is married to someone they hate cos of babies, or is single raising kids, all because all her friends had to get serious in high school, had to have a boyfriend, or felt they had to have sex to keep a guy.


----------



## heartsbeating

turnera said:


> She doesn't know anything about it, if that's what you mean.


No, that's not what I meant. If anything, I was thinking that I respect your views and was genuinely curious what you taught your daughter given your own feelings around sex. It's no surprise to me that you and your daughter speak openly about sex and that you can feel joy for her in her joyfulness.


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## ariel_angel77

My mom just told me sex is bad and I shouldn't do it, but I wish she would have talked about the emotional aspect of it and WHY I should wait for a man (not boy) who really loves me and respects me. I'm 21 and still figuring out what I myself believe and whether or not I agree with premarital sex if it's with "the one", but I know that having sex with someone who does not love me/respect me is the worst feeling ever. And that includes my STBXH! So not sure if I agree with the bounds of "you should be married to him" (because my STBXH didn't deserve an ounce of my heart, body, or soul even though I was married to him), but rather "you should be deeply in love and he should respect you and want to spend his life with you". And I'm not talking about the guy who just says "oh baby I love you" so you'll sleep with him. I'm talking about someone who loves you with all of his heart and soul and you have no ounce of doubt about it. That's who you should be having sex with. That's how I feel about it. I don't agree with ONS either, unlike most my age. Why would you contaminate such a beautiful thing with being so casual about it.


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## EleGirl

My father never mentioned sex.

The only think I ever remember my mother saying is that old thing about being a lady in the parlor, a chief in the kitchen and a ***** in the bedroom.

I was left to find out about sex on my own. I went into it with no preconceived notions. And I found out for myself that I love sex.. I've always been high drive. Perhaps the reason I've always been high drive is that no one messed with my head about sex growing up. 

I grew up before all of the sex classes were part of school. We just had a health class that include a section on human reproduction.. you know diagrams showing ovaries and where babies come from. So I did not have all the mess that goes on in school either.

It's funny how people were able to figure out sex for millions of years before it was taught in high school.


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## turnera

I realized this weekend that it isn't me I'm disgusted with because of my upbringing and experiences. It's the men. Every single male I've come in contact with aside from my very first boyfriend (who was afraid to ask for a kiss) has pushed me for sex. And rejected me or punished me if I refuse. Even my husband. So, in my experience, men look at women as vessels to satisfy themselves with. That's why I shudder when my H makes a move. It's not about me he's thinking of; it's himself.


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## Pooh Bear

turnera said:


> I realized this weekend that it isn't me I'm disgusted with because of my upbringing and experiences. It's the men. Every single male I've come in contact with aside from my very first boyfriend (who was afraid to ask for a kiss) has pushed me for sex. And rejected me or punished me if I refuse. Even my husband. So, in my experience, men look at women as vessels to satisfy themselves with. That's why I shudder when my H makes a move. It's not about me he's thinking of; it's himself.


I'm sorry, turnera. It's not really men, it's what some men have been taught. Do you feel like your husband respects your boundries? From what you have written it sounds like he does. Is there a way to seperate him from other experiences with men? I know you said you have been through counseling but did you find the right therapist? Maybe a different therapist would be better. If this is something you want to change, I don't know. 

I'm sorry it brings up so much pain. A type of therapy I went through is somatic experiencing and it was amazing. It didn't really help for what I saw the person for but it was amazing in other ways. It really helped me to connect with my body. I never realized how out of touch with my body I was.


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## turnera

He does now. After 30+ years of being 'annoyed' if I turned him down. He would do passive aggressive things like tapping his feet in bed after I'd said no, so I could hear it and feel it. Or he'd get up and go clean the kitchen or something and slam cabinets. I learned early not not to say no. Like I've said, until the last couple years, we were having sex 2-3 times a week for all 30+ years because that's what he wanted. It took me lots of therapy just to be able to tell him the truth, that I didn't want to do it that much. And even then, he didn't 'believe' me because he still pushed for it 2-3 times a week. It took another confrontation of me saying I didn't even want it to begin with, but I'd settle for once a week. And even then he pushed for twice a week. And a final confrontation a couple months ago, and now he's backed off a lot.


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## Pooh Bear

turnera said:


> He does now. After 30+ years of being 'annoyed' if I turned him down. He would do passive aggressive things like tapping his feet in bed after I'd said no, so I could hear it and feel it. Or he'd get up and go clean the kitchen or something and slam cabinets. I learned early not not to say no. Like I've said, until the last couple years, we were having sex 2-3 times a week for all 30+ years because that's what he wanted. It took me lots of therapy just to be able to tell him the truth, that I didn't want to do it that much. And even then, he didn't 'believe' me because he still pushed for it 2-3 times a week. It took another confrontation of me saying I didn't even want it to begin with, but I'd settle for once a week. And even then he pushed for twice a week. And a final confrontation a couple months ago, and now he's backed off a lot.


I'm sorry you have had such awful experiences with sex.


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## WonkyNinja

badsanta said:


> We have both and it is funny with my wife being Catholic because she is already talking with our daughter that she needs to reserve herself for "the one" and not play around with sex. But when it comes to our son she is a little conflicted. She looked at me one day and said, "I want my boy to have a good time when he grows up!"


So who is he expected to "have a good time with"?

Doesn't that give him the impression that girls who will have sex are just sl**s but it's OK to use them for sex then leave them and marry a nice Catholic girl?

That sounds like an extremely unchristian message to be passing on.


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## WonkyNinja

WandaJ said:


> that can not be in the USA , lol. My believe in abstinence only!


Yes, unfortunately that's how it has gone. 

Just one teensy weensy little problem though. Abstinence Only sex education doesn't work, period. The US teen pregnancy rates have proven that for years.


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## WonkyNinja

MaritimeGuy said:


> The irony is the bible belt probably has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy. Repressing something doesn't make it go away...only means it's done in secret with less information. In some cases may even encourage it as it makes it forbidden fruit.


I agree completely. 

It's similar those ridiculous chastity pledges that girls are made to sign. They have been proven to make no change to sexual activity but they do give the parents a smug feeling of satisfaction and that they have nothing to worry about when in actual fact they have more to worry about.


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## Thor

A very large portion of teen pregnancies are in fact intentional on the part of the girl. It has everything to do with social factors and nothing to do with sex per se. And it cuts across all socio-economic and ethnic boundaries.


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## Pooh Bear

Thor said:


> A very large portion of teen pregnancies are in fact intentional on the part of the girl. It has everything to do with social factors and nothing to do with sex per se. And it cuts across all socio-economic and ethnic boundaries.


What? What evidence do you have of that?


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## turnera

My DD24's best friend did it. And lied about it. Went to a Catholic all-girls school, dated a white boy her parents didn't approve of, but decided to have a baby cos he was 'getting an engineering degree' and could get her out of that house. This was 3 years ago and DD only just found out that her friend had been trying for months, while she'd told DD all along that it was an accident.


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## Pooh Bear

turnera said:


> My DD24's best friend did it. And lied about it. Went to a Catholic all-girls school, dated a white boy her parents didn't approve of, but decided to have a baby cos he was 'getting an engineering degree' and could get her out of that house. This was 3 years ago and DD only just found out that her friend had been trying for months, while she'd told DD all along that it was an accident.


That's one person, turnera. That is not an overwhelming majority.


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## NobodySpecial

Pooh Bear said:


> That's one person, turnera. That is not an overwhelming majority.


How would anyone even know that?

(I'm joking. Movie quote.)


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## richardsharpe

Good evening Pooh Beam
I'm sure it happens, but I can't think of any way to know how often. I think you are right that it is NOT a majority or anything like it. 

I do also know of a case of this happening to a friend, so it isn't terribly rare.

It is a risk for young men to be aware of - an unwanted child can have a terrible impact on someone's life. This applies to women as well as men of course - I suspect that very few of the women who become pregnant by deceptive means actually end up happy with their decision.

I suspect that there is still a social undercurrent of telling boys that "sex is for fun" and girls that "sex is to snag a husband" or to "have a baby". 

I wish everyone would learn that sex is fun, and that babies are something you only want when you life is in the sort of stable situation that makes raising ac child a joy rather than a daily struggle. 






Pooh Bear said:


> That's one person, turnera. That is not an overwhelming majority.


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## WonkyNinja

Thor said:


> A very large portion of teen pregnancies are in fact intentional on the part of the girl. It has everything to do with social factors and nothing to do with sex per se. And it cuts across all socio-economic and ethnic boundaries.


But it doesn't cut across national boundaries. 

Compare the US teen pregnancy rates to those in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Germany etc. 

Those countries also have socio-economic and ethnic (maybe not so much in Scandinavia) diversity but they have great public healthcare and none of them teach abstinence as the only method of sex education, they have a complete and accurate sex education program and it starts from a young age. 

The European and Scandinavian countries also have far more liberal attitudes towards sex but their teen pregnancy rates are a mere fraction of the US ones.


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## ocotillo

NobodySpecial said:


> How would anyone even know that?
> 
> (I'm joking. Movie quote.)


LOL - People either love that movie or hate it.


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## Pooh Bear

*I wish everyone would learn that sex is fun, and that babies are something you only want when you life is in the sort of stable situation that makes raising ac child a joy rather than a daily struggle.*

I agree.

I know there is some of that. I just wonder how much of it is deception verses kids are stupid and don't use protection. Course, if no one teaches them about birth control then how can they know?


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## WonkyNinja

Pooh Bear said:


> What? What evidence do you have of that?


Teens getting pregnant has nothing to do with sex. That can only be from Fox News.


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## Pooh Bear

WonkyNinja said:


> Teens getting pregnant has nothing to do with sex. That can only be from Fox News.


LOL. Yeah because, you know, all girls and women are deceptive and spiteful and cause the downfall of all mankind.


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## richardsharpe

Good evening all
please be nice.

I'm sure what one poster meant was that teenage pregnancy rates are not statistically correlated with rates of teenage sex for different countries. (I haven't check the statistics myself). 

If true, a usable explanation is that in countries where people are more open about sex, children learn more about how to avoid pregnancy, but also have sex more often.

In general, possibly miraculous exceptions aside, we all know that getting pregnant involves having sex .


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## turnera

Pooh Bear said:


> That's one person, turnera. That is not an overwhelming majority.


Never said it was, PB.


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## Pooh Bear

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> please be nice.
> 
> I'm sure what one poster meant was that teenage pregnancy rates are not statistically correlated with rates of teenage sex for different countries. (I haven't check the statistics myself).
> 
> If true, a usable explanation is that in countries where people are more open about sex, children learn more about how to avoid pregnancy, but also have sex more often.
> 
> In general, possibly miraculous exceptions aside, we all know that getting pregnant involves having sex .



Sorry. I wasn't trying to be mean.


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## ocotillo

turnera said:


> It's the men. Every single male I've come in contact with aside from my very first boyfriend (who was afraid to ask for a kiss) has pushed me for sex. And rejected me or punished me if I refuse.


Is it different when a woman is truly HD?


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## Pooh Bear

turnera said:


> Never said it was, PB.


I know you didn't. That's just what the previous poster said. That most teen-age pregnancies are because teen-age girls are attempting to decieve their boyfriends.


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## ConanHub

NobodySpecial said:


> How would anyone even know that?
> 
> (I'm joking. Movie quote.)


It scared me at first but the second time, I loved it!&#55357;&#56833;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

ocotillo said:


> Is it different when a woman is truly HD?


Are you asking me or just in general?


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## Pooh Bear

ConanHub said:


> It scared me at first but the second time, I loved it!��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What movie is it?


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## ocotillo

turnera said:


> Are you asking me or just in general?


Mostly just thinking out loud....


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## ConanHub

Pooh Bear said:


> What movie is it?


Napoleon Dynamite unless I missed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thor

Pooh Bear said:


> What? What evidence do you have of that?


I read a peer reviewed published study a few years ago that looked into it.


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## Thor

Pooh Bear said:


> I know you didn't. That's just what the previous poster said. That most teen-age pregnancies are because teen-age girls are attempting to decieve their boyfriends.


No, what the study found was that the girls were using boys to get pregnant. They wanted to have a baby in order to be cool or be like other girls, or other impressions they have about what it would mean if they had a baby.

This is why there are clusters of teen pregnancies. One girl will get pregnant in a high school, and then suddenly several others are too.

The truly accidental pregnancies might be attributable to the Victorian attitudes of society in tandem with the large amount of casual sex being portrayed in mass media as cool or mature.  Kids used to smoke to be cool like adults. These days perhaps kids are having more casual and unprotected sex in order to be cool like all those tv shows and music videos depict it.


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## tangled123

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> I'm curious how many women were taught that sex is bad, or something you do "for" your husband as opposed to "with" your partner.
> 
> Has this changed much since when I was a kid (the late Jurassic).
> 
> Were you able to eventually overcome those feelings - was it a sudden realization, or did it slowly dawn on you? Or maybe some people still feel that way.
> 
> As a guy growing up in the 70s, my parents never talked about sex, but I got the general idea that sex was something men enjoyed, but that women didn't. I realized that women could enjoy sex about when I got to college, but it wasn't until I started dating a women who really loved sex that I understood that women could have as high sex drives as men.


When I was 15, my grandma said "Sex is bad, very very bad if its not with your husband"


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## always_alone

ocotillo said:


> Is it different when a woman is truly HD?


Not necessarily. You get punished and rejected for saying yes too.

No one ever told me much about sex. I learned through experience. And what my experience taught me was that I was nothing but tits and vagina, to be used, and then despised for it.


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## TheCuriousWife

My entire sex talk consisted of my mom asking, "is there anything you want to talk about?" 2 days before my wedding... 

Good thing I was inquisitive and figured things out on my own, long before that.


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## ocotillo

always_alone said:


> Not necessarily. You get punished and rejected for saying yes too.


I believe you, AA. I was thinking more along the lines of Tunera's observation and wondering about the degree to which sexual frustration translates into general irritability and other bad behavior in a relationship.


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## WonkyNinja

ocotillo said:


> Is it different when a woman is truly HD?


My understanding from women I've spoken with is that the rejection is worse for women.

The standard stereotype is that men are up for it anytime, anyplace, anywhere that they are concious and that wives always "have a headache". 

When a man is rejected by his partner his friends will nod and sympathize at how bad it is for him. When a woman is rejected even her best friends will wonder what is wrong with her that her partner isn't interested.


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## Pooh Bear

Thor said:


> No, what the study found was that the girls were using boys to get pregnant. They wanted to have a baby in order to be cool or be like other girls, or other impressions they have about what it would mean if they had a baby.
> 
> This is why there are clusters of teen pregnancies. One girl will get pregnant in a high school, and then suddenly several others are too.
> 
> The truly accidental pregnancies might be attributable to the Victorian attitudes of society in tandem with the large amount of casual sex being portrayed in mass media as cool or mature. Kids used to smoke to be cool like adults. These days perhaps kids are having more casual and unprotected sex in order to be cool like all those tv shows and music videos depict it.


Ok. I guess I read more into it than what you actually said. Sorry. I know that girls do get pregnant to be cool - which is scary. I think I heard that this show sixteen and pregnant is helping to curb some of that. Do you know anything about that? It's terrible for the girls and the babies.


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## turnera

DD24 and I watch it religiously. And Teen Mom. DD24 likes it because it shows all the pitfalls that I warned her against and it shows girls how stupid it is to have sex when you're in high school. Not one of those girls has had an easy life.


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## Pooh Bear

ocotillo said:


> Mostly just thinking out loud....



I'm sort of wondering what your question has to do with turnera's quote. She has an individual experience of sex and then there is a larger societal view of sex. That is that men want it all the time and that women never want it. Are you referring to the larger societal issue? Like would an HD woman feel rejected if a partner were turning her down all the time? Would you clarify what you are asking?


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## ocotillo

Pooh Bear said:


> I'm sort of wondering what your question has to do with turnera's quote. She has an individual experience of sex and then there is a larger societal view of sex. That is that men want it all the time and that women never want it. Are you referring to the larger societal issue? Like would an HD woman feel rejected if a partner were turning her down all the time? Would you clarify what you are asking?


Like I said to AA on the previous page, I was simply wondering about the degree to which sexual frustration translates into irritability and other bad behavior among people in general and especially in relationships. I was curious what, if any corollaries there are to Tunera's description of her husband's childish behavior when he couldn't get what he wanted. Of course, the short answer is that it depends entirely on the individual and unrequited desires probably don't bring out the best in anyone, but that's not what stereotypes and conventional wisdom condition us to think.


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## turnera

lol, unrequited desires...he was STILL getting sex at least 3 times a week. For 30+ years. I almost never turned him down.


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## ocotillo

turnera said:


> lol, unrequited desires...he was STILL getting sex at least 3 times a week. For 30+ years. I almost never turned him down.


...Which is why it was quite childish. There is no way his behavior could possibly have been endearing.


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## turnera

eh, that's just his SOP for everything when he doesn't get his way - pout. Luckily, I'm finally learning to not accept it.


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## ThoughtsUnknown

Like the OP, I was told my body is a temple and I should respect it. Based on my perception of what this meant I didn't want to do it with just anyone.

I have only been with one person my entire life and is the person I married. When I mean one person I only kissed others and actually waited until marriage.

To each their own, but I find it disgusting how people just have sex with whomever to get off or just to do it without any emotional backing behind it. I find sex to be a very intimate experience that should only be shared between people in love. I know I speak for probably the 5% of us out there, but honestly, I feel hollywood movies, TV in general pollute our youth on what sex is and that they should be doing it with everyone possible.

Disturbing.

OP, to your original question, my mother now speaks to me about sex (I'm 33 now) and she makes it sound like a chore.

I only engage in the act when I want to and will decline when I am not in the mood.


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## Mr The Other

ocotillo said:


> Yes. The sexual repression in the U.S. is a weird social phenomenon. We have Christian religious that to this very day, teach that sex is purely reproductive and that oral sex is a sin.


Oddly enough, an old Priest of mine gave a sermon on sex and marrieag the other day. I confess, I had never heard that oral sex was particularly bad.

"Too often people start to explain the Christian view about sex the wrong way round. We should always start by looking at what is the best expression of our sexuality, and only then go on to talk about other sexual practices that might be described as a less than full expression of what sex is for, rather than using that emotive word “sin”.

For Christians, the best expression of our sexuality is an activity where a man and a woman who are deeply committed to one another use their sexuality to strengthen and enhance that relationship, and in the process, and when the time is right, produce children that they can then bring up together in a good family life. Notice that this kind of sex is not principally a way of getting pleasure but of giving it. We may well get pleasure in the process but this is not what it is for. Recreational sex (as it is called) where one or both of the people simply wants to get physical pleasure for themselves (even in marriage) is therefore an imperfect expression of what sex is for.

Imperfect expressions of sex vary in their imperfection. We would all agree that using a child to get sexual pleasure is wrong, whereas when a wife allows her husband to have sex for pleasure, even when she doesn’t really want it herself , provided she is not being forced into it, then this sex is simply less perfect than it could be. The Church has a technical term for anything that is less than perfect. That term is the word “sin”. But the world thinks that “sin” means something evil, which is simply often not the case. Many many things that we do are less than perfect, but only some of them can really be described as evil.

We then have to look at a whole range of sexual activity that is less than perfect. Clearly the nearer sexual activity is to the perfect expression of it, as described above, then the less sinful it is. So sex outside marriage between two people who really love each other, and where neither is pretending love, is quite near to really good sex, but its problem is that full commitment isn’t there, and too often one or other of the people involved hasn’t really committed himself or herself as fully as they should. This is hard for young people who really think they love each other and then get let down, so to wait until marriage is the best way, but it is understandable when people fail here. But this less than perfect expression of sex can happen inside marriage too, and it is worth remembering that the Church would say that if it can be shown that one or other of the partners in marriage never intended full commitment then that marriage can be annulled.

Other kinds of sexual activity become more and more imperfect the further they move from its perfect expression. The Church would describe all such activity as “sinful” but note what I have already said about that word “sin”. Failing to be perfect is part of being human. God wants us to move towards what is perfect, not spend our time agonising or feeling guilty about what is less than perfect. So for many things like this, we will go to Confession, as part of the process of asking God to help us move towards a more perfect expression of our humanity. To concentrate on our sexual failings, and ignore other failings, like anger, deceit, greed, unkindness is to have an unbalanced view of ourselves.

The Church argues that the best way to stop having too many children is to use the Natural method. That means using something like “Persona” that can be bought in most Chemist Shops, where the couple can identify the wife’s natural cycle of fertility, and then abstain from full sexual intercourse for the short period each month when she is fertile. This method can also be used by couples having difficulty conceiving making sure they have sex at the optimum time. As for the Pill, most women would surely prefer not to have to put a drug into their body over a long period if there was some easy alternative. In the same way most couples will tell you that having sex with a condom is not as good as having sex without it. In both cases the Church is arguing that such means of contraception are a less than perfect way of having sex.

The best sex is when a couple do not have to worry about whether the woman might get pregnant or not. It is pleasure freely given to one another, and open to the possibility of a child if one should come along. This is the kind of sex the Church encourages, but the Church understands that this perfection is not always reached : that we all have to live with what we are as humans, and accept the need for God’s love and mercy in every aspect of our lives, not just the sexual one.

It is worth pointing out that of all the explicit sex portrayed on Film and TV, there is little is shown where the couple are married. We are therefore presented from quite an early age with the idea that this less than perfect sex is the normal way of having sex. This must affect our sex life when we begin to have sex with a permanent partner, and we need to be aware that this can lead us into the temptation to be unfaithful in certain circumstances. Being faithful to one’s partner is an attitude to be worked at, not something we should take for granted.

We have therefore to face the fact that we may well have all sorts of sexual feelings. Most men (I can only speak for men) tend to have feelings about having sex with people other than their partner, but would not want to be defined by these desires. In the same way those who have homosexual or bisexual feelings or desires are actually restricting their freedom if they decide to be defined by these desires. But Jesus warns us to be aware that we do have certain feelings – like anger or lust – and that we need to face the fact that this could lead to putting those feelings into action. That is why the Church encourages people to share these feelings in the Confessional, not least because it is a way of honestly facing up to them, rather than hiding them away until they come bursting out at one of our weaker moments."

Feel free to be outraged, but bear in mind it is aimed at a Catholic audience.


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## ocotillo

Mr The Other said:


> Oddly enough, an old Priest of mine gave a sermon on sex and marriage the other day....
> 
> ...Feel free to be outraged, but bear in mind it is aimed at a Catholic audience.


Interesting. Thank you. For some strange reason, (I've never heard a really good explanation for it..) a whole slew of Protestant denominations sprang up in the U.S. during the 1800's. The meaning of the Catholic sermon was clear, but the delivery struck me as actually fairly tactful. Contrast that with one of the lesser known Protestant sects:

"The natural way for a married couple to have sexual relations is quite apparent from the very design given their respective organs by the Creator, and it should not be necessary to describe here how these organs complement each other in normal sexual copulation. We believe that, aside from those who have been indoctrinated with the view that ‘in marriage anything goes,’ the vast majority of persons would normally reject as repugnant the practice of oral copulation... 

...If these forms of intercourse are not “contrary to nature,” then what is? That those practicing such acts do so by mutual consent as married persons would not thereby make these acts natural or not “obscene.” Are we being ‘narrow’ or ‘extreme’ in taking such position? No, as seen by the fact that several states of the United States have for long had laws against precisely such practices, classifying them as forms of “sodomy”—_even though those engaging in them are married._"​


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## Mr The Other

ocotillo said:


> Interesting. Thank you. For some strange reason, (I've never heard a really good explanation for it..) a whole slew of Protestant denominations sprang up in the U.S. during the 1800's. The meaning of the Catholic sermon was clear, but the delivery struck me as actually fairly tactful. Contrast that with one of the lesser known Protestant sects:
> 
> "The natural way for a married couple to have sexual relations is quite apparent from the very design given their respective organs by the Creator, and it should not be necessary to describe here how these organs complement each other in normal sexual copulation. We believe that, aside from those who have been indoctrinated with the view that ‘in marriage anything goes,’ the vast majority of persons would normally reject as repugnant the practice of oral copulation...
> 
> ...If these forms of intercourse are not “contrary to nature,” then what is? That those practicing such acts do so by mutual consent as married persons would not thereby make these acts natural or not “obscene.” Are we being ‘narrow’ or ‘extreme’ in taking such position? No, as seen by the fact that several states of the United States have for long had laws against precisely such practices, classifying them as forms of “sodomy”—_even though those engaging in them are married._"​


I tend to think that everything started go go wrong after the C14th. It has been downhill ever since.

I have heard oral sex discussed my Priests, but rarely and not in the sense of it being ruled out at all. That said, I am writing from Europe, where even the most prudish areas are less prudish, I suspect, that the most easy going areas of the USA. Actually, in the time in the USA, I do not recall any sermons on sex.


----------

