# Natural family planning



## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

We have been together for 20 years, married for 15 years. We have three kids together. The oldest is 10, youngest is 5. 

She is catholic and has been quite religious for a long time. Recently she had a sort of revival of her faith. About a year ago my wife decided she is absolutely against any form of contraceptive sex. Before that, she was sort of okay with occasionally using condoms during her fertile part of the cycle, and otherwise, we would be using natural family planning (NFP).

(The NFP is the only method approved by the catholic church. Condoms are not.)

Therefore, now we basically have to completely abstain from sex for about two weeks every month or so. Often more than two weeks. While I'm ok with abstaining for some period, if that is what she needs for her religious life, I don't see myself doing this for the rest of my life.

I'm not sure what to do. She says she can't compromise on this. This is a life-or-death situation for her. I compromised as much as I could on this issue already, but I can't go against myself. This is just not how I see marriage.

For those two weeks, there is usually no physical affection, as this would eventually lead to us starting sex, but then neither of us is allowed to have an orgasm so that just leads to frustration. We are basically just roommates for those two weeks.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Eyecaless said:


> For those two weeks, there is usually no physical affection, as this would eventually lead to us starting sex, but then neither of us is allowed to have an orgasm so that just leads to frustration. We are basically just roommates for those two weeks.


Huh??????? 

Who says full grown, sane, sober, consenting, married adults are not allowed to have orgasms??


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Pope Francis allows for people to make up their own mind about it.









Let couples, not the Church, decide on contraception: Pope Francis writes in 'The Joy of Love' - World News , Firstpost


Pope Francis said the church-sanctioned family planning method must be promoted, but not that other methods are forbidden.




www.firstpost.com


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

It's sad she feels that way because as far as I know nothing God says forbids limiting a family. 
Plus there are things you can do sexually without actually having intercourse.


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## redmarshall (11 mo ago)

I mean, you can talk to her about how a unilateral decision like this(which affects both of you) can cause some issues in the long run, and of course have a conversation about the reciprocity of it, that how you take a unilateral decision which affects both of you, and she has to live with it, would she okay with that. Have a conversation, I think you can reach a compromise which works for both.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Eyecaless said:


> We have been together for 20 years, married for 15 years. We have three kids together. The oldest is 10, youngest is 5.
> 
> She is catholic and has been quite religious for a long time. Recently she had a sort of revival of her faith. About a year ago my wife decided she is absolutely against any form of contraceptive sex. Before that, she was sort of okay with occasionally using condoms during her fertile part of the cycle, and otherwise, we would be using natural family planning (NFP).
> 
> ...


Your wife just seems to be make **** up about the "rules". 

You're in luck, there was recently a whole thread dedicated to this and you will be able to get help from some staunch supporters of NPF that don't hols the same full view as your wife. @CatholicDad @Cynthia 









Natural Family Planning (NFP)


He made the decision to get a vasectomy without his spouse- she wanted more kids. There is a deep part of all women that always want more kids. It’s what keeps the species alive. Yes that primal part of her wanted more kids and a part of her that would be willing to risk all to bring for...




www.talkaboutmarriage.com


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Get snipped.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

she sounds crazy. 
you can not deal logically with crazy.
are the kids grown? Just leave her if they are.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Eyecaless said:


> We have been together for 20 years, married for 15 years. We have three kids together. The oldest is 10, youngest is 5.
> 
> She is catholic and has been quite religious for a long time. Recently she had a sort of revival of her faith. About a year ago my wife decided she is absolutely against any form of contraceptive sex. Before that, she was sort of okay with occasionally using condoms during her fertile part of the cycle, and otherwise, we would be using natural family planning (NFP).
> 
> ...


Two weeks is over double the typical 4 or 5 days. Are her signs of ovulation really hard for her to identify? If so, she might want to get some more training on the method and you should too. It’s best if you’re both knowledgeable and committed to it. It always worked well for my wife and I.

Sounds like you may have more significant marital issues than just NFP…

Were you married in a Catholic Church?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Sounds like you may have more significant marital issues than just NFP…


OK, make it two things in the entire universe that CatholicDad and I agree on. There is way more going on here than the technicalities of tracking one's ovulation. 

I've been knocking the catholic church's stance on contraception since I first found out about it age 14. But I've never once heard either Jesus or the guys with the funny hats in the church say that full grown, married adults, couldn't pleasure each other and have orgasms via other means like oral or giving each other a hand or whatever. 

BJs are probably as effective of a natural means of avoiding pregnancy as you can get. I doubt if there is one single proven case of someone getting pregnant from a hummer in the history of mankind. 

If someone is telling you that people are not allowed to have orgasms during their fertile time off, they are just saying that because they don't want to touch your junk.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

thunderchad said:


> Get snipped.


yes, get the snip... you have 3 kids already... do you really want more?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This is a sincere request of those familiar with the Bible, i am not being a sarcastic jerk, I actually want to know and believe it is germane to the OP's issue. 

Is there any witness by Mark or Luke and the guys about Christ ever saying that married adults could not give each other a hand or a hummer or anything? 

I'm not talking about any Old Testament crap about Onan spilling seed or self-masturbating with lustful desire or anything like that. 

I am sincerely asking if JESUS himself ever said that married couples could not pleasure each other through other nonPIV activities?

This is germane to the OP's issue because if there is a legitimate biblical reference to MARRIED COUPLES given EACH OTHER a hand, that is fundamentally different that maintaining a religious conviction against self-masturbation (even that is debatable as well but for another topic)

If there is no biblical reference to not giving each other a hand, then she is either mistaken in her religious teachings and may be up for a BJ/HJ or something.

......or she is simply using a false frame of reference to tell him to keep his hands off of her.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> This is a sincere request of those familiar with the Bible, i am not being a sarcastic jerk, I actually want to know and believe it is germane to the OP's issue.
> 
> Is there any witness by Mark or Luke and the guys about Christ ever saying that married adults could not give each other a hand or a hummer or anything?
> 
> ...


I'm no Bible expert, but I've had these discussions with some people that are. The consensus I got from them is pretty much anything is okay between husband and wife, so long as no one else is brought into the relationship. Even masturbation is fine, but it can't be hidden from the spouse. In fact it should be done with them.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Eyecaless said:


> We are basically just roommates for those two weeks.


The question that begs to be asked for frame of reference is what is she like during the two weeks you supposedly can have sex?

Is she tearing your clothes off, begging for the high hard one and riding you like a stolen horse?? 

Or is she still very reluctant and awkward and trying to keep you at arm's length? 

I think how she behaves when you are supposed to have the green light is actually more telling than when the gate is closed.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

(A request for the MODS,,,,, is there a way the title of this thread can be changed so is not so similar to the other quagmire and train wreck of thread with very similar name? "Natural Family Planning (NFP)" 

Assuming the OP comes back, this thread is of an actual situation where a couple needs legit advise, vs the other that is basically monkeys throwing poop at each other over a general concept)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

thunderchad said:


> Get snipped.





In Absentia said:


> yes, get the snip... you have 3 kids already... do you really want more?


I agree with the logic and this is what I did when I was in my 40s and no longer wanted any more kids. My wife wasn't happy about it but agreed to it in principle and life went on. 

However in this case, the OP needs to be aware that some of these catholic chicks will use this as their rationale and excuse to NEVER have sex with him again since vasectomy is not a condoned method of family planning, and since it is presumed to be a permanent procedure, they are not able to ever get absolution for it. 

He may be able to do it on the down low and commit to her never finding out. But if she did find out, their sex life would permanently be over just the same.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> He may be able to do it on the down low and commit to her never finding out. But if she did find out, their sex life would permanently be over just the same.


Surely there is a better solution than lying to your spouse. I wouldn’t want to live with someone I had to lie to. I even confessed about my Botox, and I’m all open about my upcoming face lift, cause I’d rather deal with someone being mad at me than lying to him. That’s just a total death knell for any marriage, IMO. It’s better to leave than to lie.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@DownByTheRiver
She is into traditional catholicism. Attends latin mass, covers her hair while at mass, etc. She doesn't really follow what pope Francis would say on this issue.


@thunderchad
If I get vasectomy she says she would never, for the rest of our marriage, be allowed to initiate sex.


@CatholicDad
She already charts, uses ovulation monitor, etc. Once she tried to move the fertile period a bit, so that we could have sex for more days of her cycle. She got pregnant and then miscarried, which was devastating for both.

Yes, we were married in the catholic church.

I don't think anyone has a perfect marriage, but there is nothing else that is a major problem. 


@oldshirt
There is a difference between what catholics do, what majority of priests tell catholics to do, and what very traditional priests say catholics to do. About 200 years ago some poor woman asked vatican what to do if her husband insists on using a contraception, oral sex, handjob, pullout, or similar. Response from vatican was given in no uncertain terms. In latin, yes, but in no uncertain terms. See page 303 here for what is the position of church on this question,



https://www.pdcnet.org/C1257D43006C9AB1/file/3513A4A9EB1B1EF485257D8E007673F4/$FILE/ncbq_2011_0011_0002_0105_0132.pdf




@oldshirt
When we have sex during her infertile period, she seems to be into it. We both have orgasms every time, it usually happens at the same time. She doesn't fake it. I ask if there is something else she would try, she says no, and that whatever I do is ok. 

(I'm with kids, help around the house, cook, do the laundry, etc. We have one income, mine. )

Her position on catholic teachings is basically that she would rather die than use contraception. However, in the heat of the moment, she suggested few times to use condom or pullout, even during her fertile period. However, I refused, as I know what would happen the next day. This is also why we now don't even try anything during the fertile period... She would say this was a moment of weakness, etc. Again, she'd rather die than use contraception.


@oldshirt
I would never do vasectomy without her knowing.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Eyecaless said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is coming from mortal men who molest children and then cover up for each other on an organizational scale. Unless some biblical scholar can come here and set the record straight, God and Jesus never said anything against consenting adult married couples giving each other a hand. This is a manmade cockammamie idea, it has nothing to do with biblical reference. 

This is why in 58 years I never had so much as a coffee date with a catholic chick.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> Eyecaless said:
> 
> 
> > @thunderchad
> ...


This is what I was talking about above. 

Since sterilization is presumed to be a permanent procedure, they would never be able to get absolution and the guy behind the curtain hearing the confession would not be able to ever absolve them and bless the married consenting adult couple having sex again.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Eyecaless said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> She is into traditional catholicism. Attends latin mass, covers her hair while at mass, etc. She doesn't really follow what pope Francis would say on this issue.
> 
> 
> ...


well, since you are both Catholics you can't even divorce...


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Eyecaless said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> She is into traditional catholicism. Attends latin mass, covers her hair while at mass, etc. She doesn't really follow what pope Francis would say on this issue.
> 
> 
> ...


Well, you're screwed then, or not screwed would be more accurate.


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## thunderchad (12 mo ago)

Sounds like you are stuck in a dead bedroom if you are not willing to do anything.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> This is a sincere request of those familiar with the Bible, i am not being a sarcastic jerk, I actually want to know and believe it is germane to the OP's issue.
> 
> Is there any witness by Mark or Luke and the guys about Christ ever saying that married adults could not give each other a hand or a hummer or anything?
> 
> ...


Maybe you should start your own thread versus muddying up NFP.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Eyecaless said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> She is into traditional catholicism.  Attends latin mass, covers her hair while at mass, etc. She doesn't really follow what pope Francis would say on this issue.
> 
> 
> ...


Did you go with her to classes on NFP when she learned the program? If you’re knowledgeable too then you will know better the risks. Two weeks is way too conservative a window in my opinion- unless you’re just starting and new to it. With experience and knowledge- the window gets smaller.

If you married her in a Catholic Church you’re obligated to allow her to practice her faith too and be willing to raise your children as Catholics too. If you’re meeting your obligations then you really can’t harass or argue with her against NFP. Your time would be better spent truly learning how and why it works.

Hard core Catholic women are the best kind!!! They’d also die before being unfaithful and are usually fantastic/devoted/loving spouses and mothers- you lucky devil. God bless, brother.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Maybe you should start your own thread versus muddying up NFP.


No, it's entirely relevant to this thread and situation. 

If her issue is faith-based and she has scriptural reference for her position, then the solution will likely need to come from a faith-based perspective as well. 

If her actual issue is she just doesn't like him and doesn't want to touch him, then she's using faith as an excuse and subterfuge and he would need to call her out on it and try to get to the actual root of the problem. 

If there is scriptural reference for her belief and conviction and it is not an attraction, desire or relationship issue, then he will need to become more aware of her belief system and find ways to work within that. 

And if she is just a complete nutjob, then he will need find mental help assistance. 

So if there is legit religious reference for her convictions or not, it is relevant to the discussion. 

I'm not familiar with the bible enough to know if there is any scriptural basis for saying that a married couple can not give each other a hand or not. I assume there is not, but figure someone else out there would have that specific answer.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Hard core Catholic women are the best kind!!! They’d also die before being unfaithful and are usually fantastic/devoted/loving spouses and mothers- you lucky devil. God bless, brother.


Oh boy, if only you knew LOL  

But that's for another topic


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not familiar with the bible enough to know if there is any scriptural basis for saying that a married couple can not give each other a hand or not. I assume there is not, but figure someone else out there would have that specific answer.


I am Protestant. I read the Bible daily and have studied it extensively over my life, so I'm very familiar with it. I know a little about Catholic doctrine and understand where they are coming from on birth control.

Since Christ, we are no longer under the Law, but the entire Old Testament is not the Law. Furthermore, all scripture is of value for our understanding and edification. We can't simply ask, "is it in the New Testament?" to get and answer. That's not how it works.

From my understanding, what Catholics believe is that denying the reproductive aspect of sex is a sin. They use several scriptures for this doctrine, including the incident with Onan in Genesis 38. Doing things other than PIV are a part of the sexual experience, but I don't know how avoiding PIV would also be a sin. It doesn't really make sense to me. It gets complicated pretty fast when you start down that rabbit hole. Also, I flatly disagree with Catholic's interpretation of the sin of Onan, but I'm not going to get into a debate about it. It's pointless. 

@Eyecaless, where does your wife get her doctrine from? Does she study the scriptures for herself, as well as hearing what others have to say about it, or does she only follow what she is told by church leaders? 

What are your religious beliefs, Eyecaless? This will help me to understand what your position is in this matter and how you can related (or not) to your wife's belief system.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> @Eyecaless, where does your wife get her doctrine from? Does she study the scriptures for herself, as well as hearing what others have to say about it, or does she only follow what she is told by church leaders?


I'm not trying to speak for Eyecaless, but this is what he cited earlier in the thread in regards to his wife's doctrine.




Eyecaless said:


> @oldshirt
> There is a difference between what catholics do, what majority of priests tell catholics to do, and what very traditional priests say catholics to do. About 200 years ago some poor woman asked vatican what to do if her husband insists on using a contraception, oral sex, handjob, pullout, or similar. Response from vatican was given in no uncertain terms. In latin, yes, but in no uncertain terms. See page 303 here for what is the position of church on this question,
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Uh, yeah, I forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder, as it answers one of my questions. I tried to read it, but I don't speak Latin.

So, @Eyecaless, this is your wife's text that she follows? Can she read it? Does she have a translation?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Oh great- here comes the TAM theologians.

The only problem, the Catholic theologians and doctors of the church spent their entire lives reading scripture and praying about it, wrote/spoke multiple languages, and in many cases had most of the Bible committed to memory. If anyone thinks the TAM theologians can compete with Catholic church doctrine- they got another thing coming. 😆

I’m also sure Jesus didn’t mean when he said “take up your cross and follow me” that he was giving permission to everyone for complete sexual excess and depravity.

No offense, but most of the advice you’ll find here is more from the disciples of Hugh Hefner than Jesus Christ.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

Thank you all for your comments.

@CatholicDad
I know about NFP. We didn't have proper classes, as the required one didn't really go into depth on this issue. Also, she didn't want to do NFP before we got married, so we didn't feel like going to classes on our own. She later learned about NFP from several books, internet forums, other women, and she seems quite knowledgeable about this. Also, she is using these fancy stick monitors that measure her hormone levels, so I doubt she can improve the technique too much. She seems to be using the best, and most expensive, method already. She has been tracking her cycle for many years, so it is not that she doesn't know what is going on with her body. As I said, once she tried extending her infertile period for 1-2 days, and got pregnant (later she miscarried). She is going to ask for assistance with NFP, but I doubt anything will change, as she seems to have been trying everything, and is already quite geeked-out on this. At best she has 11 days of fertile period and 1 day of heavy period, per cycle. So, that is 11+1=12 days of abstaining per cycle, in best circumstance. On average, we would have 13+1=14 days of abstaining. Sometimes, if she catches even a small cold, or there is any other kind of disturbance, it is up to 19+1=20 days. Also, keep in mind, that with three kids and busy schedules, even if her infertile period starts, say, on Monday, maybe that day kids don't want to go to bed, or someone is sick, and of course marriage has its own dynamics. So, sex then might realistically happen on Tue, or more likely on Wed. 

I'm meeting obligations you mentioned regarding her and kids.


@oldshirt and @Cynthia
This is a 100% faith-based question for her. We spoke to her traditional catholic priest (the one who is serving a mass in latin) and he says that what she is doing is "holy". I think he is too young to understand what are the consequences of what he is saying, but he seems honest and he seems like he wants to help. Other priests, as well as devoted catholic couples married for many years, advised us differently. However, she doesn't think these people are true catholics and she thinks they are doing a mortal sin by not following NFP during the fertile period 100%, and she is basically excluding them from her religious life. (She talked to these folks on her own initiative.) She listens to "radical traditionalists" ("rad-trad" for short) on the internet like Taylor Marshall. This person claims that catholic church has been infiltrated by masons and that they are somehow pushing this "soft" position on sexuality that "modern" popes have been propagating for the last 150 years or so. They absolutely can't stand pope Francis. Just see for yourself, Taylor Marshall - stay salty my friends I don't think she, or us, ever spoke in-person to someone who is: married, uses NFP, and agrees that in our particular situation, what she is insisting on is good for our marriage.

She seems to be honestly trying her best. However, to her this is literally the question of eternal damnation. I asked, somewhat jokingly, but I really wanted to know how far does this position go: "what would happen if I had a day to live, and doctors said that the only way to save my life would be to have contraceptive sex, only once." She said she still wouldn't do it. From her point of view it makes complete sense! What is finite time on this earth compared to eternity in hell? It doesn't even compare... Sure, it makes no sense to me, or some of you, but to her this is completely black and white. We do love each other, but I don't see how marriage can work if we go on/off for every two weeks. Things are good, sex is good, we do stuff together, spend time with kids,.... and then we are back to being roommates who watch movies together and kiss and hug, but basically nothing else for two weeks. I'd be ok with having this period be shorter, as this issue is clearly something very important to her. However, I can't go on/off like this for the next 10 years. Also, with perimenopause, her cycle will become even less predictable in a few years, which means that we would need to abstain for even longer.

We tried a lot of different therapists. She only wants to go to the one she selects, and when she suggests we go, and even then she can't really find someone who would be impartial to the issue. So, that doesn't help. We can work on our communication even more, but that almost makes it worse, in a sense. If I see that she knows my position even better, she still can't move a millimeter on her position, which then that just makes it worse.

It would be easier if we didn't love each other, or if I didn't find her incredibly sexually attractive, but I just don't see how is this going to work... She made her position absolutely clear and I think I have as well. I was fortunate to live in a family where my parents loved each other, and expressed love for each other, and I'm just stuck with that mental image of a marriage. Physical touch is how I feel loved.

Divorce is out of the picture. I would never do that. I don't really see a solution here. Thank you again for your thoughts and suggestions.


@Cynthia
Yes, the text I posted, translated to modern english, is what ultimately changed her mind on the issue. The position of the church, from 1820-ties, is too disgusting for me to even repeat here, so I'll leave it for you to read if you really want to. The position is on the third page of the document below, it is a quote starting with "Since in the proposed case the..."



https://www.pdcnet.org/C1257D43006C9AB1/file/3513A4A9EB1B1EF485257D8E007673F4/$FILE/ncbq_2011_0011_0002_0105_0132.pdf



Until a year ago she was following position of the church from 1997 in which it looked like church is allowing a wife to participate in sex with a contracepting husband. However, this is not actually what church meant in 1997, as in that same text they seem to actually be citing the document from 1820-ties that addresses the issue in complete clarity, with no place for any kind of wiggle room. It maybe doesn't really matter what this document from 1820-ties even says, but the bottom line is that we can't have any kind of contraceptive sex, in any way shape or form (pullout, hand, oral, anything else that would lead to either of us having an orgasm) during her fertile period. There is no sense in discussing theology, as her mind is absolutely set on this, and this is against her religious freedoms. Anyone who even suggests anything contrary is automatically labelled as a bad catholic, and I feel like talking to married catholics who don't agree 100% with her, or married catholic therapists, is just backfiring and making things worse.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Eyecaless said:


> Thank you all for your comments.
> 
> @CatholicDad
> I know about NFP. We didn't have proper classes, as the required one didn't really go into depth on this issue. Also, she didn't want to do NFP before we got married, so we didn't feel like going to classes on our own. She later learned about NFP from several books, internet forums, other women, and she seems quite knowledgeable about this. Also, she is using these fancy stick monitors that measure her hormone levels, so I doubt she can improve the technique too much. She seems to be using the best, and most expensive, method already. She has been tracking her cycle for many years, so it is not that she doesn't know what is going on with her body. As I said, once she tried extending her infertile period for 1-2 days, and got pregnant (later she miscarried). She is going to ask for assistance with NFP, but I doubt anything will change, as she seems to have been trying everything, and is already quite geeked-out on this. At best she has 11 days of fertile period and 1 day of heavy period, per cycle. So, that is 11+1=12 days of abstaining per cycle, in best circumstance. On average, we would have 13+1=14 days of abstaining. Sometimes, if she catches even a small cold, or there is any other kind of disturbance, it is up to 19+1=20 days. Also, keep in mind, that with three kids and busy schedules, even if her infertile period starts, say, on Monday, maybe that day kids don't want to go to bed, or someone is sick, and of course marriage has its own dynamics. So, sex then might realistically happen on Tue, or more likely on Wed.
> ...


Cool brother. But she went from 1 to 2 fertile days to 14? The 1-2 days is absolutely super risky and the 14 days is too conservative. Isn’t there some reasonable middle ground?

I think you should learn about NFP yourself. It’s really as much your responsibility as hers and she may miss something or not understand it exactly right.

I’ve got 10 kids and been married 30 so I know how it goes. You’ve got to be clever, creative, and flexible sometimes. Strenuous physical activity or some loved hobby can help you weather the fertile days. You’ve got it tougher than me…. I was at least 100% committed to NFP as a Catholic.

Listen brother, you might as well drink the cool aid and become Catholic because if you’re doing NFP you’re 99% living it anyway and I firmly believe you’ll need the sacraments to live it without resentment. You might even come to love it- as I have.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Fwiw, I think your wife is theologically correct. There are a lot of bad bishops in the church that are allowing and perhaps even teaching false doctrine…. she’s wise to be aware of that.

Beware of TAM advice too. Many will say “you’re crazy” or “she’s crazy” but I’m convinced- some posters here are literally possessed- no kidding!

Are you a serious Christian yourself at least?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

@Eyecaless, are you Catholic? What is your faith system?


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

In my opinion, unless you are on the same level of religion as the person you are with......Run!

I personally believe that religion is just an outdated way of controlling the masses through fear..... I know this sounds disrespectful and I am not trying to be. I understand everyone has their personal beliefs and that is fine. But if you really look at religion and god, it doesn't make sense, at least not to me.

I have friends who grew up in strict religious homes and really lived a restricted lifestyle including only dating within their religion. They have lots of regrets and feel that they missed out.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@CatholicDad
No, she didn't assume that her fertile period is one or two days. 

No, she tried to adjust the fertile period by shortening it by one or two days. So, we would then have to abstain for 12 instead of 14 days.

Usually her fertile period starts certain number of days before she expects her ovulation (which is taken as average of readings from her monitor from previous 6 months). She tried to shorten that time-period before ovulation by a day or so, and she got pregnant first or second cycle we tried this. I wouldn't mind having another kid, but that wouldn't resolve any of the issues we are having, and we would be back to the same situation we have now.

So, you said you had 4-5 days of abstinence every cycle? Also, it looks like you had a really good reason to abstain, as doing anything else would be a mortal sin for you, but you needed a coping techniques and sacraments to live with it "without resentment"?

I'm not a perfect husband, but for me doing NFP is something I have to do so that my wife is happy, and I'm happy that she is happy. I don't think that I get a pass to heaven for doing this. Also, going without sex for 4-5 days wouldn't be such a problem, so I don't really see why would one need so much assistance with this? But, constantly doing this "two week thing" for another 10 years...



@oldshirt
She is a healthy, normal, good, loving person who wants to follow what her religion is telling her to do. It doesn't need to make sense to you or me or to anyone else.

All I would like to do is to find some kind of workable solution for our marriage.



@Cynthia
I'm no longer religious in any conventional sense of the word. I do believe that golden rule is a good rule to live your life by. Before she switched to the latin mass, I used to attend church with my family, as it meant a lot to her. I don't do this anymore, as I feel much more uncomfortable at her new church.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

In our NFP program we would abstain at the onset of peak type mucous. This mucous was very obvious to my wife. Then we abstained until the mucous was gone (“dry”) aka day 1. End of day 3 we could resume “activities” if no more mucus showed up (rarely did). We found also we were ok typically to resume end of day 2 but only started cheating that if we were open to another baby.

You know ovulation only lasts like 48 hours tops and the sperm can’t survive without peak type cervical mucus so two weeks is like the extreme most conservative thing ever. You might try another flavor of NFP. Is your wife actually checking mucus? (Sounds gross/hard but super easy).

If I had to wait two weeks I’d become like NFP black belt certified and would be in there checking mucus myself 😆

Good luck, brother!

PS the Latin Mass is a beautiful and ancient- the closest thing possible to how the early Christian church celebrated Mass.There’s real power in that but buy a missal so you can read along!


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Eyecaless said:


> @Cynthia
> I'm no longer religious in any conventional sense of the word. I do believe that golden rule is a good rule to live your life by. Before she switched to the latin mass, I used to attend church with my family, as it meant a lot to her. I don't do this anymore, as I feel much more uncomfortable at her new church.


Unfortunately, that makes your situation more difficult to deal with. However, there are some things you can try, that may help her.
Does your wife believe that that the husband is the leader of the wife and the home?
I'm trying to get a read on the situation to provide some suggestions, that may help you get through to your wife.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> OK I have to ask, is she acting erratically and nonsensically in other areas of her life?
> 
> Does she have a lot of nonsensical superstitions and rituals that impact her during the course of the day? Will she only wear certain articles of clothing on certain days regardless of what else is going on or whatever else she is doing? Does she wash and scrub her hands multiple dozens or even hundreds of times a day until they bleed even if she hasn't done anything to get them dirty? Does she pick at her skin until she bleeds or picks at her hair until she has bald spots? Does she have bizarre toilet or hygiene practices?
> 
> ...


Classic @oldshirt. Someone has religious convictions- they must be mentally ill. 😆


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

It's been a long time since I used NFP, but 12-14 days seems way out of range. Also, once she has ovulated, the ovum only lasts for, at the very most, 24 hours. The standard line is 12-24 hours. Some of the things you are saying about NFP aren't adding up for me, like averaging charting and so forth. That's not how I was taught.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Many will swear its highly effective because they have been successful with it. But in a hospital delivery room, many thought they knew what they doing roughly 9 months earlier.....I thought today was day 14 or I thought that discharge was from me ovulating..... oops!


When done correctly, NFP is highly effective.
The problem is that it's very difficult to abstain. This couple is abstaining. The problem isn't NFP. The problem is that his wife is refusing to have sex with him when she believes she is fertile. So far, NFP has worked perfectly for them, as far as preventing pregnancy, but it's having a bad effect on their marriage.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@CatholicDad
What you are saying about mucous does not apply in our case. As I said, she got unintentionally pregnant from sex we had 5 days before her ovulation. Later she miscarried. This was our fourth pregnancy.



@Cynthia and @CatholicDad
She is using the marquette method. It is one of newer methods of NFP. This method involves measuring basal temperature, checking mucus, measuring hormones in her urine, as well as using some algorithm to combine all of this information together (this is where the 6-month average comes in). She stopped checking her mucus at some point. She did it for a while, but then she gathered enough data from that and she now relies on her hormone tests. Maybe she could try adding the mucus check, but even with that we were never below that minimum of 12 days of abstinence, so I don't think this really matters, but I'll ask her.

The whole point of this marquette method is that it apparently gives you the shortest fertile period as compared to all other NFP methods.

The following document from marquette university says that average number of fertile days is 13.2, which is apparently an improvement over the average of 13.7 using mucus. Therefore, her number of fertile days seems to be an average, at least for those women in the study. Maybe women in the study had unusual cycles, or something, but your wife's 4-5 days would be way way below average for women in that study (13.7).




https://epublications.marquette.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?&article=1343&context=nursing_fac






@Cynthia
Yes, she said she thinks that husband should be spiritual protector of the family. We don't really disagree on that many practical concrete life issues, even those that are spiritual, philosophical, or however you want to call them. The main difference is this issue with sex. I could say tomorrow I'm a catholic, but it wouldn't change a thing, it would likely just make the whole situation even worse, as I would basically be a hypocrite for saying I'm catholic but not agreeing with church on what it teaches about sex. Her main issue here is with what catholic church regards as sexual sin in marriage.

Any advice would be appreciated.

I blamed myself for her becoming so strict about her catholic beliefs, but she says that it has nothing to do with me.




@ThatDarnGuy!
That is what I thought as well, especially after traumatic miscarriage, but she says this is not just an urge for another child. No, basically, "she doesn't want to sin". That's it. No matter the consequences.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is a great quote, I'm totally stealing it. Everyone I know who uses "natural family planning" has had a child about every 14 months since they got married...


How about instead of stealing, we call it permanently borrowing 🤣.... I am messing with ya!


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@ThatDarnGuy!
Yes I know, but it doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. She has her view on this, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to me or anyone else. I can't tell her what to think, she made up her mind. Also, she needs to make her choices using her own free will, not because she feels pressured into thinking something because I, or anyone else, found a really good argument for this or that position.

I'm just looking for something practical that would help us, I have no more time for arguments with her, reasonings, and so on...


(I did spend some time reading what church is saying and what members of church, priests, are doing when it comes to sex. I wish I didn't read those books by Richard Sipe. Situation on the inside of the church is much worse than what people think, but that is besides the point here...)


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Eyecaless said:


> @ThatDarnGuy!
> Yes I know, but it doesn't matter who is right or wrong here. She has her view on this, it doesn't matter if it makes sense to me or anyone else. I can't tell her what to think, she made up her mind. Also, she needs to make her choices using her own free will, not because she feels pressured into thinking something because I, or anyone else, found a really good argument for this or that position.
> 
> I'm just looking for something practical that would help us, I have no more time for arguments, reasonings, and so on...
> ...


I hear what you are saying. But she obviously read something, or listened to something that changed her mind. And I think a spouse is fully entitled and should be able to communicate what they feel and even present counter arguments to what they believe. 

This is a decision that is hurting you right now. Are you going to be able to deal with this for another 1,3,5,15,20 years? You have to be realistic to yourself as well. If you can't debate, or talk about something this importance for yourself to your spouse. Then that is a huge red flag for communication in a marriage. Communication, sex, and compatibility are an essential must in any marriage. 

This is something major that I feel needs to addressed. If not, it will build resentment which is a very slow acting poison that will destroy even the best marriage..... its like working a job and having to deal with office politics and bad management. You might be happy now, and even into next year. But you will finally say wth am I doing, and leave.

I also feel you need to closely watch for serious changes. No offense to anyone here, but religion can be a serious life altering event and I don't mean always in a positive way. A church group often has deep influence over other members. They can use guilt to achieve benefit for the congregation. Before my marriage, I was dating a lady for about 15 months. That church and its members used religion as a power to control each other. It was honestly eye opening for me. If you didn't give 10% of your income and volunteer your time, you were looked down upon and other members would say evil forces were influencing your life. And believe me, if you are not a member, they will turn on you. They will influence her with sayings like god wants you with a man of the church. That is exactly what happened to our relationship. It was a very long time ago but she approached me and said her and her pastor talked. They together didn't feel like we were a spiritual yolk or something like that lol.

I am just saying, do not just sit on the sidelines and let religion destroy your marriage if you truly want to make this work and last. I promise you, books cannot fully describe what you might be up against.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Classic @oldshirt. Someone has religious convictions- they must be mentally ill. 😆


Having religious beliefs and convictions are not in and of themselves a sign of mental illness. 

But thinking the cat is possessed by the devil or that the toaster is telling you the word of God is.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

We spend years discussing this. We could have had another kid if we spent all of that energy and time on another kid and not on these silly discussions. She even involved friends/family into this, we spoke to 5-6 therapists over the years, priests. None of it is helping. Now when someone says a thing about teaching on sex she doesn't agree with, she removes herself from the conversation, she says she feel pressured, etc. It doesn't matter how gently is one trying to approach this, or who is trying to approach this. For example, this is what happened with the last 2 therapists we saw few months ago (one catholic, one protestant, both were her choice). We can talk to her priest, but he by default just says the same thing that she is saying. Also, how exactly does one argue marriage with someone who was never married (priest)? They simply repeat that they basically have a word from god, and that is it. There is no arguing with that view.

I do see that this is going to poison the marriage, and I don't think I would forgive myself if I didn't try everything I could to fix this. I've been trying to do everything I can, but I don't know what other option do I have. I'm not suicidal or depressed, actually this whole situation is so bizarre that it is at times comical, but if I could just disappear and be replaced with a nfp-ready-catholic-husband, I would take that option.

Leaving is not an option. Say there are 10 things important in marriage, we are quite good on 9 of those. Sex remains unresolved, but it is ok during the infertile period. If I find someone new, I may not like something else about them. Also, I'm not a perfect man, and I would be even less perfect if I had to endure divorce and all of the mess that causes, so I don't see how is any of this even an option.

If she would have short fertile period, 4-5 days as @CatholicDad said, then I think that this problem would be resolved, but it is very unlikely that this will happen. Realistically, she will have even less predictable cycles in the future, and her libido will go down. So, yeah... I'm so confused by this situation, that I don't really know what else to do.

She is not pressured directly by anyone in the church, besides the whole "you would be doing a mortal sin" thing, that one expects from religion. She thinks that anything contraceptive is a mortal sin, which can be taken as a pressure on her from her church, but you know, most catholics are not bothered by what catholic church thinks about sex, so I don't know if we can call this "pressure". She certainly takes the position of the church on this very seriously, so in some sense she is pressured, but she would argue differently. I don't think that there was anything beyond this "pressure" that happened to her in the church.

There were some negative influences from a family member she talked to, but she assures me that this is no longer going on. Pretty much everyone else "took my side" (including couples who have been married for 30-40 years, have been devote catholics, practiced NFP with some modifications during the fertile period, have bunch of kids, grandkids). Again, she decided who she wanted to talk to, and for long time I didn't know she was talking to other people about this. So, it is not that I intervened, or something like that, to use someone else to change her mind.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@oldshirt
I see what you are saying, but how can one say that she is scrupulous if her priests is agreeing with her, and documents of her religion agree with her? By the same logic, founder of three large world religions, Abraham, was also mentally ill, as he heard a voice that told him to sacrifice his son on a top of a hill. Now, maybe he actually was mentally ill, but about 2.5 billion christians, and 2 billion muslims would disagree. So, do we call all of them mentally ill? How does that help?


Literally, present pope, leader of the catholic church, descendent of st. peter, couldn't change her mind on this issue. How exactly can I change her mind? I can't even if I wanted to, and even if I did, she would basically be coerced into doing something she doesn't want to do. So, what exactly would I achieve?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Eyecaless said:


> I don't see myself doing this for the rest of my life.





Eyecaless said:


> Divorce is out of the picture. I would never do that.


Well if both of those statements are true, then playing with other women on the side is probably in your future.

Have fun.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Eyecaless said:


> We spend years discussing this. We could have had another kid if we spent all of that energy and time on another kid and not on these silly discussions. She even involved friends/family into this, we spoke to 5-6 therapists over the years, priests. None of it is helping. Now when someone says a thing about teaching on sex she doesn't agree with, she removes herself from the conversation, she says she feel pressured, etc. It doesn't matter how gently is one trying to approach this, or who is trying to approach this. For example, this is what happened with the last 2 therapists we saw few months ago (one catholic, one protestant, both were her choice). We can talk to her priest, but he by default just says the same thing that she is saying. Also, how exactly does one argue marriage with someone who was never married (priest)? They simply repeat that they basically have a word from god, and that is it. There is no arguing with that view.
> 
> I do see that this is going to poison the marriage, and I don't think I would forgive myself if I didn't try everything I could to fix this. I've been trying to do everything I can, but I don't know what other option do I have. I'm not suicidal or depressed, actually this whole situation is so bizarre that it is at times comical, but if I could just disappear and be replaced with a nfp-ready-catholic-husband, I would take that option.
> 
> ...


I feel like the absolute worst thing you can do is have counseling with a religious figure. I feel like using religious counseling for your wife is about on the same level as sending a recovering alcoholic to a Friday night fraternity party where everyone is drinking. 

You sound like you deeply love her and want this to work. And as hard as it might sound to hear, I think you are beginning to lose her and maybe you are in denial about it. You are reaching out here, so that speaks volumes about how you want to hold on to her.

But I feel like if you don't try to intervene quickly, you are definitely going to be really hurting when you lose her.I promise you, if my wife got into religion and started changing like this. I am going to fight like mad to hopefully help her realize how damaging I feel religion is.... I just find it a bit odd how much money, and scandal is associated with the church and then they they try to preach morality and what should and should not happen in the sex life of a married couple. I also feel its funny how the stance of the church changes over the years and decades to better suit their image as their numbers decline 

I don't even know you, but I have been through this and I have family who has been through this. And from an outside perspective, I think I see what is coming.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@ThatDarnGuy!
I hear you man. Thank you for your thoughts on this. Yeah, we don't know each other, but I could have written myself most of the things you wrote above. She is convinced she is doing good for her, me, and our marriage. Me giving this or that argument is completely irrelevant to her. I'm telling you, if pope Francis called her tomorrow on the phone and told her that she is wrong on this, she still wouldn't accept that. Given that, how in the world could I change her view? It is simply impossible.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Maybe research and try another NFP method. If ovulation occurs over 24-48 hours how in the heck is 336 hours (14 days) reasonable?

We started on Creighton and then switched to CCL because we moved, needed a refresher after a baby/nursing and there was no Creighton training resource near us.

I’d suggest you read about the church and learn the truth for yourself. Scott Hahn “Rome Sweet Home” perhaps or “Mere Christianity” by CS Lewis. It sounds like maybe you’ve already worn your wife down a bit by trying to talk her out of it. Maybe you need to accept who she is and learn to work with her the best you can. In my opinion she’s absolutely correct- but maybe her NFP method needs adjustment.



Creighton Model – Unleashing the power of a woman's cycle










Learn NFP at CCL | Natural Family Planning | Fertility Awareness


Learn a natural, scientific and effective way to plan your family.




ccli.org


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@CatholicDad 
I will talk to her about trying some other method. Hopefully that helps. Thanks.

Yeah, as I said, we are both worn out with discussions. I can accept her as she is, but I also have my views of marriage and sex.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Eyecaless said:


> @CatholicDad
> I will talk to her about trying some other method. Hopefully that helps. Thanks.
> 
> Yeah, as I said, we are both worn out with discussions. I can accept her as she is, but I also have my views of marriage and sex.


I highly recommend getting snipped if you do not want anymore kids. Just keep in mind that according to the CDC, NFP has about a 24% failure rate. The only other method that scored worse was using spermacides alone. That is a high failure rate and there are plenty of stories about how people thought they were doing it right and thought it was a solid form of preventing unwanted pregnancy. 

In this case, I honestly wouldn't blame you for getting snipped without her knowing. Having an unwanted baby in this matter isn't fair for the child. Its also not a good idea for a marriage going through issues right now.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> I highly recommend getting snipped if you do not want anymore kids. Just keep in mind that according to the CDC, NFP has about a 24% failure rate. The only other method that scored worse was using spermacides alone. That is a high failure rate and there are plenty of stories about how people thought they were doing it right and thought it was a solid form of preventing unwanted pregnancy.
> 
> In this case, I honestly wouldn't blame you for getting snipped without her knowing. Having an unwanted baby in this matter isn't fair for the child. Its also not a good idea for a marriage going through issues right now.


@Eyecaless I was going to say something similar. How would your wife respond to you getting a vasectomy? Since you aren't religious it is only you that will be damned to hell, not her. Or is she going to say something crazy like she still can't have sex during her fertile period?


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@ThatDarnGuy!
Well, yes and no. I looked up CDC data and CDC actually states on its website that effectiveness of nfp methods is between 2% and 23%






Contraception | CDC


Birth control methods, reversible and permanent, and resources.




www.cdc.gov





CDC got its data from this meta-study,









Effectiveness of Fertility Awareness-Based Methods for Pregnancy Prevention: A Systematic Review - PubMed


Studies on the effectiveness of each fertility awareness-based method are few and of low to moderate quality. Pregnancy rates or probabilities varied widely across different fertility awareness-based methods (and in some cases, within method types), even after excluding low-quality studies...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





The method that @CatholicDad is suggesting has a reasonable "perfect use" effectiveness, but it has those 20+% effectiveness for "typical use". The super-duper Marquette (monitor) method has more reasonable effectiveness. But yeah, of course it is effective, as it basically asks you not to have sex for half of the cycle  Let me read a bit more about these methods and see what they actually mean by "perfect use" and "typical use" for the method that @CatholicDad is suggesting.

About vasectomy: if I do this then she can never initiate sex for the rest of our life, and I think she would have to try to convince me to reverse the procedure. So, yeah, we would have sex when I wanted, but she would basically have to be passive about it. And what is the point of that? I mean, the whole point is that I feel connected to her through sex, and physical touch, but if she can't initiate sex, then who am I having sex with actually? 

This is what would happen "in theory", in practice there would probably be other issues as well, as she feels very strongly about these things, as you might have noticed. Also, I have no way of knowing how exactly she would react, and there is basically no going back if I do the procedure. (Doing this behind her back is totally out of the question. This would totally destroy the marriage. Don't even get me started.)


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Eyecaless said:


> (Doing this behind her back is totally out of the question. This would totally destroy the marriage. Don't even get me started.)


I would hope no one would advise you to do this. Even if your spouse had no issue with birth control, doing something life-changing like that without telling your spouse is beyond the pale. It's such a huge betrayal of trust, there would be no coming back from it. I appreciate that you're serious enough about your marriage and have way too much respect for her as a person to do something like that behind her back. I don't have helpful advice, unfortunately, and I'm sorry for that, but I do admire that you seem determined to solve this problem together with her. You're a good husband.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

You say vasectomy is off the table. Divorce is off the table. She decided this unilaterally. And she won't budge.

She has you by the short hairs. About all that's left for you is to count the days until menopause and hope all the equipment still works.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@DownButNotOut 
Correct. However, she is not malicious. Church hierarchy is malicious to her (in my opinion), which then affects me as well, but her intentions are good. I wish she saw things differently... but I can't change that.

We will see if we can tweak the NFP technique she is using...


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Edit: I'm sorry. I wrote a rather long post, but was in too much of a hurry. I think I gave the wrong impression. If I have time, I will rewrite it, but for now I deleted it.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

It sounds to me like she knows she has you cornered and is using religion to control you and get her way.

All I can say is good luck buddy. But she is going to really have you trapped using the NFP method when she becomes pregnant. 

The whole Catholic teaching on this is conflicting and contradicts itself. You aren't allowed to use any form of birth control as sex is for procreation. But its ok to try and figure out your cycle to only have sex when you most likely won't get pregnant. 

So honestly without trying to sound disrespectful. Isn't using NFP technically a sin since you are purposely using a method that will supposedly avoid getting pregnant?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> So honestly without trying to sound disrespectful. Isn't using NFP technically a sin since you are purposely using a method that will supposedly avoid getting pregnant?


It’s a loophole. The church tells people they can use that method and it won’t be a sin because they know darn well people will be getting pregnant...... a lot. 

It’s no coincidence that the person that promotes this the most on this site has 10 kids.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> Oh great- here comes the TAM theologians.
> 
> The only problem, the Catholic theologians and doctors of the church spent their entire lives reading scripture and praying about it, wrote/spoke multiple languages, and in many cases had most of the Bible committed to memory. If anyone thinks the TAM theologians can compete with Catholic church doctrine- they got another thing coming. 😆
> 
> ...


This is what I feel is the problem with religion. It can be interpreted to whatever suits a person for the moment and situation. It rarely has a clear definition and can be interpreted ten different ways by ten different people. 

And this is why I feel religion is going to be a major obstacle for the OP. I just feel like he is in denial about about the new changes in their sex life and has given up saying he will just accept it. But I don't think he fully grasps how much she will most likely change as she gets deeper into this religion. 

I am wondering if she is unhappy in the marriage and is possibly looking for an escape. I say this because sometimes people have a difficult time with saying I am unhappy in this relationship or marriage and will do and say things to try and push the other person away.

Kind of like when some people no longer want to be friends. Rather than telling you, they suddenly have reasons why they can't meet you, take your call, etc. All in hopes that you will eventually get the point.

At this point, you might want to at least look into making a plan to protect yourself, especially if you have any major assets. At least freeze your credit, and put any personal savings into accounts only you can access. Also put personal items of value into secure locations..... it has happened more than once when either a husband or wife starts making changes in their life like a new found religion before making an exit from marriage.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@ThatDarnGuy!
I see why you would say this thing about control, but I don't think it is a correct description of what is going on. In some sense she is scrupulous, if you compare her to an average catholic. In other sense she isn't, as she is following what (at least some) priests are telling her and what documents of her religion are telling her to do. 

On your second point. Well, yes, there are catholics who would say that NFP can be used with a contraceptive mindset. Some are against NFP in any circumstances. So, yeah, there is also that.... My wife is luckily not in either of those camps  Actually, somewhat bizarrely, she would be ok with us doing during her fertile period everything we usually do during sex minus either of us having an orgasm. So, in some sense, she is stretching herself thin, to "wiggle around" the rules to some degree... Even more, she would even go as far as to suggest in the heat of the moment that I either do a pullout or use a condom, as she sees how frustrating is this for me. But then after a day or so, she is back to her regular thinking about the issue. So, yeah, I'm not sure what to say.


Regarding that I'm in denial about "the new changes in their sex life". These are not really "new changes" in some way.

This is a long, complicated, and somewhat comical story. Let me try to explain. For most of our marriage she had some sort of "excuse" from the church in which she would sort of be ok with a condom during her fertile period. However, this would then come with a lot of legalities. For example, for a year or so she would be ok with using a condom during fertile period, as long as I initiated sex. She could initiate if it was infertile period. Then at other times she would be ok with her initiating at any time, fertile or not. Then there was a period in which she wouldn't initiate if she had a fertile period, but she didn't tell me that, but I eventually figured it out. After a lot of back and forth, I said to myself that this is just inconsistent, and I went to dig around these documents she was reading, to finally find out what the heck is church actually even saying on this point. Because what she was saying just didn't make sense. It is frustratingly difficult to dig this information from the church.

Basically, this document from 1997 she was reading, and that her "liberal" priest pointed out to her, says something like this: "wife can agree to her husband using contraception if there is a grave reason for it". Now, any normal person would think that wording "grave reason" would mean something like: "use condom if nfp would otherwise cause a lot of distress in your marriage". Basically: agree to your husband contracepting in order to "save your marriage". This is more or less what "liberal" priests told her (and me).

However, while I was digging around these church documents, I realized that no, church in 1997 actually literally meant "grave reason". Word "grave" was not a figure of speech. Basically, 1997 documents refers to document from 1820-ties which says that if husband threatens to k**l his wife unless they do certain contraceptive acts (I think this was for condom or pullout, but I forget which one they mean), that the wife is not sinning if she allows contraceptive act to happen, and that she doesn't need to resist him. (Btw, on the other hand, if he wants to have an orgasm during oral or anal sex with her, then this rule doesn't apply and according to church she should resist, no matter the consequences for her life. So, yes, you read that right, even if she loses her life. Yeah, this is extremely disturbing, but that is what is in the original documents from the church in no uncertain terms. This is in the so-called "Denzinger", which lists official position of church on various issues. See translation in the pdf I sent earlier.)

Now, when I found this document, I showed it to my wife and told her what it said. Idiot-naive-me was hoping that she would realize how insane it is to follow what catholic church is teaching about sex in our situation... But no, her reaction was: "well, in that case we can't use condoms anymore". I guess she realized how serious is church on this whole no-contraception thing. So, I guess I did this to myself, in part, I should have kept the document for myself, but at least she is now consistent 

So, no, this was in some sense a slow process, where she was actually confused about what church is saying for years, and she just couldn't internally really come to terms with agreeing to the use of condoms, even though I think she really wanted to. The shoe didn't fit. So about a year ago she stopped the whole condom thing cold turkey. Now she has clarity and internal peace, and I'm trying to figure out how to navigate this. Sex has actually improved, but it happens during infertile period only, as at least now she is internally at peace with herself, and is actually more into it than when she had to go over her beliefs on contraception. So, I guess there is some silver lining to this.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Here's my suggestion: you mentioned she was basically down for everything but PIV (is that right? I'm still new to TAM lingo). It could be a fun and very intimate and bonding project to explore ways to enjoy each other and celebrate your loving marriage in ways that aren't, ahem, standard. As long as it meets with everyone's comfort level and everyone has a nice time, that sounds like a bit of a romantic adventure... 

Just my two cents. It would have to "pass muster" with the church and I have NO idea what those rules are about sex just for enjoyment and bonding. I myself am not a church person. To quote an old comedian whose name I forget and wisdom I remember: "I trust God. I just don't trust anyone who works for Him. Not enough immediate supervision."


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> It sounds to me like she knows she has you cornered and is using religion to control you and get her way.
> 
> All I can say is good luck buddy. But she is going to really have you trapped using the NFP method when she becomes pregnant.
> 
> ...


You’re really not supposed to use NFP for years and years to avoid pregnancy unless you have a “grave reason”- such as the mother’s health or even mental health. The church recognizes that you can’t just pop out kids endlessly and obviously some wives (or even husbands) might have some underlying health concern that would make having children dangerous/difficult.

But yeah, it would also be sinful to use NFP for years and years if you were completely healthy and just didn’t want to have kids. God’s first command in the Bible was “be fruitful and multiply” so married Christians do want to try and honor that.

We had 10 kids because my wife and I are healthy and we were actually trying to not abuse NFP. So, we’d use NFP for birth spacing really because pregnancy/delivery does tend to beat a woman up so think this satisfied “grave reason”. We had 10 kids because we love kids, wanted to not offend God, and love sex- but NOT because NFP failed us. Quite the contrary, NFP was the perfect piece of the puzzle to make a Catholic marriage work.

My hope in promoting NFP is that others might try it, find it really works well and say “I wonder what other great truths can be found in the church”.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> You’re really not supposed to use NFP for years and years to avoid pregnancy unless you have a “grave reason”- such as the mother’s health or even mental health. The church recognizes that you can’t just pop out kids endlessly and obviously some wives (or even husbands) might have some underlying health concern that would make having children dangerous/difficult.


Dude you were super rude to someone for doing exactly this. I'm sorry to call you out and you can report me, but that's not cool. His wife had two difficult pregnancies: when I had my boy I was probably older than you and my doctor said "Try again if you want to, but soon, and be prepared to make tough decisions." I was old and high risk. I was of course willing to die for my baby because that's how motherhood is, but we made a choice as a couple on the advice of the doctor. I may be going to hell, but it's not for that, I guarantee it.

Second, may I ask a question in good faith and have you answer it honestly? I mentioned in a post that perhaps the OP and his wife could explore sex that wouldn't risk pregnancy. Basically getting sexual satisfaction, together as a couple, without doing that one thing that causes pregnancy. What is your opinion as a Catholic of that practice? If you could put aside my history and answer me honestly, I would really appreciate it.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Dude you were super rude to someone for doing exactly this. I'm sorry to call you out and you can report me, but that's not cool. His wife had two difficult pregnancies: when I had my boy I was probably older than you and my doctor said "Try again if you want to, but soon, and be prepared to make tough decisions." I was old and high risk. I was of course willing to die for my baby because that's how motherhood is, but we made a choice as a couple on the advice of the doctor. I may be going to hell, but it's not for that, I guarantee it.
> 
> Second, may I ask a question in good faith and have you answer it honestly? I mentioned in a post that perhaps the OP and his wife could explore sex that wouldn't risk pregnancy. Basically getting sexual satisfaction, together as a couple, without doing that one thing that causes pregnancy. What is your opinion as a Catholic of that practice? If you could put aside my history and answer me honestly, I would really appreciate it.


You’re talking about @oldshirt ? He and I go back and forth and I doubt he’s crying in his cheerios- he gives as good as he gets! Hey @oldshirt - if you’re seriously offended- I apologize. I’ve always enjoyed most of your posts-even when I disagree.

I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through. Motherhood is the toughest gig for sure and suffering over the loss of unborn children is something I can relate to- not near what I know mothers do though.

The church recognizes that the second end of marriage is that it is a cure for concupiscence (or strong sexual desire). I think marital relations need to be in union with the life giving aspect of this though too. This is all described in detail at the link below. I think it is expected that spouses will enjoy/satisfy each other- and are even morally obligated to do so. It is cruel and sinful when men or women ignore the sexual needs of their spouse and this is one reason why I am opposed to pornography.

In layman’s terms: no contraception, “finish in”, NFP allowed for birth spacing for serious reasons including the health of the mother.

Are you thinking about the Catholic Church? The sacraments are to die for! In confession the priest will forgive every sin you’ve ever committed- because Jesus conferred this power to the apostles and this has been passed down to priests today via apostolic succession.





__





Humanae Vitae (July 25, 1968) | Paul VI


Humanae Vitae - Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Paul VI on the regulation of birth, 25 July 1968




www.vatican.va


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> You’re talking about @oldshirt ? He and I go back and forth and I doubt he’s crying in his cheerios- he gives as good as he gets! Hey @oldshirt - if you’re seriously offended- I apologize. I’ve always enjoyed most of your posts-even when I disagree.
> 
> I’m so sorry for what you’ve gone through. Motherhood is the toughest gig for sure and suffering over the loss of unborn children is something I can relate to- not near what I know mothers do though.
> 
> ...


Incidentally, you know nothing of what I've gone through, nor have you any interest. How dare you pretend to know the loss of a child, I cannot image greater disrespect. Feigning sympathy is insincere and dishonest. You didn't answer the question. I didn't expect you to, though. It's usually a deflection of platitudes and a reference to what someone else wrote. And I'm aware that you can commit any sin you like with impunity as "confession" absolves you of all your sins. I asked for a sincere, good faith conversation. I see it was a mistake to ask for that. I asked a clear question and hoped you'd be respectful enough to provide a real answer. You did not.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> Incidentally, you know nothing of what I've gone through, nor have you any interest. How dare you pretend to know the loss of a child, I cannot image greater disrespect. Feigning sympathy is insincere and dishonest. You didn't answer the question. I didn't expect you to, though. It's usually a deflection of platitudes and a reference to what someone else wrote. And I'm aware that you can commit any sin you like with impunity as "confession" absolves you of all your sins. I asked for a sincere, good faith conversation. I see it was a mistake to ask for that. I asked a clear question and hoped you'd be respectful enough to provide a real answer. You did not.


I’ve had to accompany my wife to deliver a near term dead baby- saw the destruction that wrought with my wife. Did I feel the loss like my wife? Of course not. But thank God for that because I was at least able to care for our living kids while she recovered and was grieving the loss. I’ve also been present at other miscarriages and been there to baptize our tiny lost babies and cried over them too. We’ve named them and asked for their prayers throughout life and hope to meet them in heaven someday. I think part of the reason I was open to 10 kids in the first place was to try and help heal my poor wife’s grieving mother’s heart. I think it partly worked too. My wife’s last and final pregnancy resulted in a beautiful baby girl which at least has been some consolation to her. So I may not feel the loss like my wife- but I’m trying to do my part.

Confession doesn’t let you sin as much as you want. You have to be truly sorry with a firm purpose of amendment. It’s clearly wrong to commit the same sins over and over because it shows you had no “purpose of amendment”.

Tried to answer your question but am perhaps a poor writer. Oh well, moving on…


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

CatholicDad said:


> I’ve had to accompany my wife to deliver a near term dead baby- saw the destruction that wrought with my wife. Did I feel the loss like my wife? Of course not. But thank God for that because I was at least able to care for our living kids while she recovered and was grieving the loss. I’ve also been present at other miscarriages and been there to baptize our tiny lost babies and cried over them too. We’ve named them and asked for their prayers throughout life and hope to meet them in heaven someday. I think part of the reason I was open to 10 kids in the first place was to try and help heal my poor wife’s grieving mother’s heart. I think it partly worked too. My wife’s last and final pregnancy resulted in a beautiful baby girl which at least has been some consolation to her. So I may not feel the loss like my wife- but I’m trying to do my part.
> 
> Confession doesn’t let you sin as much as you want. You have to be truly sorry with a firm purpose of amendment. It’s clearly wrong to commit the same sins over and over because it shows you had no “purpose of amendment”.
> 
> Tried to answer your question but am perhaps a poor writer. Oh well, moving on…


Regardless of whether we see eye to eye or fiercely disagree . I am sorry that you had to go through that. I can't say I know how you felt. But I can say that no family, mother, father, or person should have to deal with that


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> I’ve had to accompany my wife to deliver a near term dead baby- saw the destruction that wrought with my wife. Did I feel the loss like my wife? Of course not. But thank God for that because I was at least able to care for our living kids while she recovered and was grieving the loss. I’ve also been present at other miscarriages and been there to baptize our tiny lost babies and cried over them too. We’ve named them and asked for their prayers throughout life and hope to meet them in heaven someday. I think part of the reason I was open to 10 kids in the first place was to try and help heal my poor wife’s grieving mother’s heart. I think it partly worked too. My wife’s last and final pregnancy resulted in a beautiful baby girl which at least has been some consolation to her. So I may not feel the loss like my wife- but I’m trying to do my part.


This is really terrible, and I owe you an apology for my harsh words. I'm very sorry, I was disrespectful and unkind and I shouldn't have said that without knowing what you'd been through. 

I wasn't asking what the doctrine was. I wanted your personal opinion on it. You are not obligated to give it.

Again, I'm sorry for being so mean. I should be more careful, especially considering how easily I get my feelings hurt when people accuse me of things without knowing my history. I will learn from it and try to be a better person in the future.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

TexasMom1216 said:


> This is really terrible, and I owe you an apology for my harsh words. I'm very sorry, I was disrespectful and unkind and I shouldn't have said that without knowing what you'd been through.
> 
> I wasn't asking what the doctrine was. I wanted your personal opinion on it. You are not obligated to give it.
> 
> Again, I'm sorry for being so mean. I should be more careful, especially considering how easily I get my feelings hurt when people accuse me of things without knowing my history. I will learn from it and try to be a better person in the future.


No problem- clearly I’ve done the same on here many times.

My personal opinion is I love the churches teachings on everything. I suppose I’ve had to give up some kinky sexual practices, gave up porn/masturbation, sacrificed some material possessions I could have had (I’d be wealthy if we had two kids), but in exchange I have the sacraments and a house full of kids I love and get to help/watch grow up. My wife is starting menopause too so we’re in some ways like newlyweds because we’ve never been in the spot when we can have as much sex as we want- like we can now. There are no “fertile” days to wait through. Despite our sufferings together (hers more than mine)- she still loves me and I love her. My favorite thing on this earth is making love to her and will be until the day I die. We may not do the whole kinky thing but our relations are hot, expressive, wonderful and satisfying- every time. Maybe that’s from desiring her and waiting through fertile periods for 30 years and maybe because we’ve held onto each other through suffering. No one understands better than parents- this life _is_ a valley of tears.

So yeah, I’m passionate about the church, my wife, and NFP. People can have a great sex life as Catholics. It is truly divine that my wife still loves me too because she’s been through hell. Mothering is NOT respected in this world and as a result of being a hard core stay at home mom she’s been abandoned by her closest family members and friends. I was traveling a lot on business as a young man while she was home with an infant and several toddlers- she’d go days without a shower because she had no help despite her numerous family members living lives of leisure within 10 minutes away. Her family (great Christians too fwiw) abandoned her but chose to help siblings with less kids because they worked outside the home. Not many realize how much work it is with an infant and several toddlers- but I’m convinced this is the hardest and least respected job ever- especially for an extrovert. Anyway… droning on.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Regardless of whether we see eye to eye or fiercely disagree . I am sorry that you had to go through that. I can't say I know how you felt. But I can say that no family, mother, father, or person should have to deal with that


Thanks brother. We’re all going to experience some kind of hell on earth because of our love for our kids. If you have a lot of kids- likely even more- but they’re worth it.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Eyecaless, There seems to be a lot of convoluted thinking on your wife's part. Your wife seems to pick and choose which sect she is going to follow, rather than thinking for herself and following the Bible.

I recommend that you spend 10-15 minutes a day reading the Bible with your wife. Start with prayer asking the Holy Spirit to open your minds to the scriptures, then discuss what you've read for 5-10 minutes afterwards. Do not read with any other materials or Bible study. The idea is to simply see what the Bible says. I'm not talking about studying anything to do with your issue. I'm talking about your wife learning to read and think about the Bible without being told what it says by someone else. If she wants to follow the Bible, she should be reading it. I think it would be good for you to do that with her, so you can talk about it together and she can develop her own thinking. This will also help you two to get on the same page.

Personally, I think the basic issue is legalism, rather than living under the grace of God, through the Lord Jesus Christ. Your wife is not living in freedom. She is bound by rules and fear. The Bible tells us, in 2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (NASB) What is happening in your marriage is not liberty, it is bondage.

I don't think you should blame yourself for your wife's belief that condoms are sinful. You were trying to make a point, but she took it another direction.

As far as the method your wife is using:
Sperm survive a maximum of seven days in the female body.
Ovum survive a maximum of 24 hours.
This is a maximum of eight days of fertility. Women are not fertile for 13 days. Technically, women are fertile for 12-24 hours, but the sperm already there are ready to fertilize the egg.
I wouldn't trust an algorithm. I trusted the clear signs that I had learned to understand. Learning the signs should allow a woman to pinpoint when she has ovulated down to the day. If using technology, down to a couple of hours. Some women can feel it when they ovulate. The idea is to learn to know exactly where in a woman is in her cycle by the clear and present signs happening right then. When I was using it, my periods were irregular, as I was breastfeeding. I didn't have any trouble knowing exactly where I was in my cycle. I don't think this would have been a problem during menopause either. 

Of course, your wife got pregnant having sex five days before her ovulation. Her adjustment doesn't make sense.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@TexasMom1216
Thank you for your thoughts on this. I think it is helpful to hear about this from perspective of another wife.

Let me just clarify: my wife is ok with everything during fertile period, P in anything, not just V, but none of us are allowed to have an orgasm. Yes, it is really strange, think about it for a second. It takes a while to wrap ones head around this. Anything, oral for me or her, 69, vaginal, anything is ok, but none of us can have an orgasm.

So, in practice, on two or three occasions we tried, this would lead to an hour long session of us doing everything listed above. Note that this is also the peak of her cycle, when her body is much more into sex than usual, as hormones are doing their thing. She would suggest we try next time during infertile period things that she is otherwise not ok with, and so on. Also, her body is way way more into sex at fertile period than during her infertile period.

However, in the end, after an hour of piv and oral and what not, I'm basically at a point where this hurts so much physically that I can't sleep unless I have an orgasm.

So, yeah, there is that. Basically, this become so frustrating that in the end we stopped anything sexual during her fertile period. Maybe there is some in-between thing we could do, where we do stuff for a shorter period, and then stop before I know it would hurt later... but millions of year of human evolution have just wired us the way we are. I don't think that is easy to change. I mean, we could try... Maybe I'm missing something obvious here...

In some sense it would be easier to be celibate for life than to constantly go on/off like this, every two weeks... If you read experiences of other women doing NFP you'll see that folks try all sort of things. Wife would sleep in a different room during her fertile period as she can't stand being next to her husband, as they can't have sex, they try anti-depressants (I think to lower her libido), and so on. There is surprisingly little information on the internet about what exactly men are going through during the fertile period. There is a lot of preaching, and rules, and advice on how to distract yourself from sex, and what-not, but not much data about what men actually end up doing during this period. I think we all know why.


@CatholicDad
To reply to your earlier suggestion: my wife contacted someone who could help with her charts and NFP. I can update what she finds, but it doesn't seem that she was doing NFP incorrectly. To the contrary, I think she is using already the most recent/expensive/fancy method there is. Basically, I think this would then mean two weeks of abstinence for each of her cycle.

We could try less efficient NFP method that maybe might allow for a shorter fertile period. As I said before, I don't mind having another kid. The three we have are great, seem happy, and are doing very well. A bigger concern is that if NFP fails again she could have another miscarriage. This devastated her last time. Even worse, if she had a high risk pregnancy, it would devastate her or she would risk dying.

Again, given that she will in a few years start her 2 to 10 year period of perimenopause, her cycle will become even more unpredictable. So, this will mean either an even longer fertile period, or a high-risk pregnancy.


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Eyecaless said:


> Let me just clarify: my wife is ok with everything during fertile period, P in anything, not just V, but none of us are allowed to have an orgasm. Yes, it is really strange, think about it for a second. It takes a while to wrap ones head around this. Anything, oral for me or her, 69, vaginal, anything is ok, but none of us can have an orgasm.


I would really, really like to hear from the staunch Catholics on the board (and any other religious people) where this particular rule comes from and what purpose it serves. Because to be honest, that sounds unhealthy and just... mean. I'm not a fan of the church (I think I've mentioned that before  ), but I do believe in the divinity of Christ and simply I cannot imagine Jesus honestly being all in on something like that, he was a really nice guy who understood what it was to be human and that seems out of character. I do NOT get that, but because I don't go to church I don't feel like I can really say that's absurd, because maybe it's not. @Diana7, can you weigh in on this one? It just seems so... mean. That's the only word I can think of for it. It seems to me to be less about self control and more about, well, punishment. I do not understand it.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@Cynthia
Thank you for your thoughts on this. It helps to get a point of view from a female on this.

My wife would say that for years she was following what "liberal" side of the church was telling her. So, these are people who are serious about their catholic faith, but have a more "liberal" take on teachings about sex. For example, in our situation they would be ok with pullout or condom during the fertile period.

She actually thinks that only now she is truly thinking for herself and following the religion the way she wanted. She does seem more confident in herself in other areas of her life, and she had therapist helping her with this as well.

Your suggestion seems closer to what non-catholic churches are saying, so I don't think this would fly with her. I basically suggested to my wife, this was like 10+ years ago, that maybe we could find some non-denominational church we could attend, in addition to her catholic church, so that we would have things to talk about together. I mean, I'm also open to discussing catholic theology with her, reading bible or whatever. I don't have to agree with her on everything, it wouldn't be something odd for me. I think we learn more by talking to people we disagree with. Also, I was raised in a very catholic (but she would now say "liberal" I guess) family, so these teachings are not unknown to me. Actually, as I said earlier, two of us have quite similar outlooks on life in general. I don't remember us having a real strong arguments about anything "standard" like: how many kids should we have, how to spend money, or whatever else there is that normal folks argue about. This goes for some of the more "philosophical" things as well.

I hear what you are saying about my wife "living in fear". I get it. I tried talking to her about that, maybe I need to be even more tactful, but I don't think she is open to discuss these things. For example, I recently sent her the text below, on pope Francis. The text quotes pope saying "Rigidity [in the church] is a sin against the patience of God." She got very upset. On the other hand, if we watch a movie that sort-of-kind-of has the theme of "not-living-in-fear" we talk about it, and agree on the message of the movie. (However, then it doesn't have any reference to god, contraception, sex, or whatever else.)









Pope Francis: Rigidity in the church ‘is a sin against the patience of God’


“There is much resistance to overcome the image of a church rigidly divided between leaders and subordinates, between those who teach and those who have to learn,” the pope said during an audience with the faithful from the Diocese of Rome.




www.americamagazine.org






@Cynthia
Regarding what you said about NFP. She does know by the day when she ovulates. She is using these clearblue testing sticks that detect her hormone levels. I don't know whether mucus testing is more reliable than these hormone tests, but she is in contact with a NFP coach and is investigating it right now. My guess is that there would be no market for her method ($200 monitor, $2 per test) if mucus thing resulted in a shorter fertile period and is also free. The whole point of the $200 monitor, and this whole marquette method, is that it supposedly gives the shortest possible fertile period. That is their whole selling point... why would someone buy the monitor if it results in longer presumed fertile period.

I think the point here is that basically if one wants to use a 20% effective method, that then, yes, then you can assume a shorter fertile period. If you want a 2% effective method, then basically you need to assume a very long fertile period. Maybe I'm wrong, this is my hunch, but we will dig further. Thanks.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

TexasMom1216 said:


> I would really, really like to hear from the staunch Catholics on the board (and any other religious people) where this particular rule comes from and what purpose it serves. Because to be honest, that sounds unhealthy and just... mean. I'm not a fan of the church (I think I've mentioned that before  ), but I do believe in the divinity of Christ and simply I cannot imagine Jesus honestly being all in on something like that, he was a really nice guy who understood what it was to be human and that seems out of character. I do NOT get that, but because I don't go to church I don't feel like I can really say that's absurd, because maybe it's not. @Diana7, can you weigh in on this one? It just seems so... mean. That's the only word I can think of for it. It seems to me to be less about self control and more about, well, punishment. I do not understand it.


I'm also curious what other catholics say on this. On the other hand, I can just directly copy paste for you the translation of the original position of the catholic church on this. This text was written by official vatican, and still is quoted by vatican to this day. This text appears in a book that is a collection of official church positions on a wide range of issues. It is absolutely clear, there is no ambiguity on their official position here. Read it for yourself:

_Since in the proposed case the woman, on her part, performs no action against nature and is involved in something lawful, the whole deordination of the act however comes from the malice of the husband who withdraws instead of consummating and loses his seed outside the vas; thus if a woman, after due entreaties, achieves no effect, yet the man persists, with threats of blows or death or other serious cruelties, she may (as approved theologians teach) remain passive, since in such circumstances she is simply permitting the sin of her husband and for a grave cause which excuses her, since charity, by which she would be bound to impede the sin, does not oblige in so great inconvenience._

So, in normal language, if husband decides to do a pullout, she would have to tell him to not do it, if he would then threaten her with life, she would not be sinning to remain passive. What normal person wouldn't tell her to run away from this man?

Here it is in official latin if you prefer 

_Qu: Potestne pia uxor permittere, ut maritus suus ad eam accedat, postquam experientia ipsi constiterit eum more nefando Onan se gerere ... , praesertim si uxor denegando se exponat periculo saevitiarumauttimeat,nemaritusadmeretricesaccedat?Resp.:Cuminpropositocasu mulier e sua quidem parte nihil contra naturam agat detque operam rei licitae, tota autem actus inordinatio ex viri malitia procedat, qui loco consummandi retrahit se et extra vaseffundit,
ideo si mulier post debitas admonitiones nihil proficiat,vir autem instet, minando verbera aut mortem aut alias graves saevitias, poterit ipsa (ut probati theologi docent) citra peccatum passive se praebere, cum in his rerum adiunctis ipsa viri sui peccatum simpliciter permittat idque ex gravi causa quae eam excuset; quoniam caritas, qua illud impedire teneretur, cum tanto incommodo non obligat._


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## TexasMom1216 (Nov 3, 2021)

Eyecaless said:


> So, in normal language, if husband decides to do a pullout, she would have to tell him to not do it, if he would then threaten her with life, she would not be sinning to remain passive. What normal person wouldn't tell her to run away from this man?


I find it difficult to trust the intent of any organization that tells a woman she must submit to violence and rape. That the man is her husband does not change what she is being ordered to do here. If her husband has "malice" against her, as described in the passage, and is beating her and threatening her life, an organization that places ANY value on women at all would tell her she should leave him and would offer to protect her from that violence, not submit to it.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

How old is your wife?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

My suggestion about reading the Bible together isn't so you can debate or disagree. It's so she will read the Bible for herself and have her husband to discuss it with. That should help her not go down rabbit holes so easily and will help her to really learn and know the Bible for herself. I have personally found that reading the Bible straight, without study aids, except a concordance, is helpful for my understanding of what the Bible is really about.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

This is just my humble opinion and many will disagree and some will think I am a horrible person. 

I don’t think you wife is right in the head. 

Even current church doctrine and the current Pope are not telling people to do what she is claiming so she can’t really claim religious conviction here. 

She’s not acting in a rationale and prudent manner. 

I don’t believe in inmates running the asylum. I think sane, rational, responsible people should be the ones making life-impacting decisions. 

On the matter of having a normal, healthy, uninhibited and unencumbered sex life, I don’t see it happening with her unless she has some other kind of wild swing in religious experience ((which is a sign of mental health issues but that’s another topic)

But as far as concern for unwanted pregnancies, IMHO she isn’t competent to make rational decisions for herself if this is what she is coming up with. 

If you are sure you no longer want to have any more children whether it is with her or with anyone else, I wouldn’t blame you if you took care of that on your own. Especially if you know she no longer wants any more kids either. 

At least that way if she was DTF with whatever methodology she was employing at that time, you could at least enjoy it without having to worry about more unintended mouths to feed or more miscarriages. 

If she never finds out, then to her it was God’s will and all is well. 

If she does find out - in reality how much worse is it going to be vs what you’re going through now?

Only you can answer that. 

IMHO your not dealing with a mentally healthy and competent person. Is that who you want making these decisions on your reproductivity?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think it is probably sinful to do “everything but orgasm” as this still opposes the life giving side of our sexual nature and is in fact putting yourself in a near occasion of sin because as a man you would then be so tempted to spill your seed, masturbate, or the like and you would then be doing the exact sin God killed Onan for. It is also opposed to charity towards your spouse also to rev them up and leave them frustrated because this itself is against the second end of marriage as a “cure for concupiscence”. That “doing everything but” sure ain’t a cure for anything but sounds frustrating beyond belief. You really should spend the two week fertile period another way because what you’re doing goes against ordinary common sense and is really inviting trouble (pregnancy) and sin. As a Catholic man and you fall into some heat of the moment sin- you just run to confession, get absolved, pick yourself up and resolve not to fall into it again and move on.

You know brother, if you were Catholic you could be talking to your priest about all this and he could probably offer some good advice (they’ve heard and counseled husbands/wives on all of it). You know, you don’t have to be perfect as a husband or Catholic- you just have to try. When you learn the things that lead you to temptation or sin- you simply avoid it. Catholics are not expected to be perfect- we’re all sinners. Nor are we called on to be successful…. God wants us to try our best to love Him and be obedient to Him.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Brother, it occurred to me that you’re NOT even practicing NFP if you’re having full on sex (albeit non-orgasmic) during fertile periods. There are no NFP programs that would support that. I find it more likely you got her pregnant during one of these insane events versus the “5 days before ovulation” theory. Further, you’re suppose to chart intercourse- so how do you “chart” that… as a “non-orgasmic intercourse” day?

No offense but you actually AREN’T actually doing NFP and it almost sounds like your wife is trying to get pregnant. I mean, is she just waiting for you to slip up and then she can claim the resulting baby is your fault? Her claiming some huge increase in desire when ovulating sounds suspicious too.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@CatholicDad
I think you misunderstood what I said. I said that we tried the "everything but orgasm" thing in total about two or three times. We stopped with that, as it clearly wasn't working. Therefore, we are now just "roommates" for those two weeks. We would kiss or cuddle, but nothing else.

With the whole "everything but" thing I was just trying to illustrate the point, and say that my wife is trying to bend the rules as much as she can, and is not insisting on nfp out of malice. No, she truly is trying, in her own way, to find something that would work for our marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Eyecaless said:


> @DownByTheRiver
> She is into traditional catholicism. Attends latin mass, covers her hair while at mass, etc. She doesn't really follow what pope Francis would say on this issue.
> 
> 
> ...


What a shame she doesn't go on what God says in the Bible rather than what RC priests may say.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@TexasMom1216
Yes, of course.

@Cynthia
My wife is almost 40.

@Cynthia
I see what you mean about reading Bible. It might bring us even closer, but it wouldn't resolve this particular issue with sex, I think.


@oldshirt
Technically speaking, current pope didn't really change any of the official positions of the church. He maybe is trying to adjust the melody a bit, muddy the water, but the message is basically the same. Also, my wife's priest is agreeing with her. I could find a priest who would disagree with her, but she would say that this priest is corrupt.

Not telling her about vasectomy would be worse than divorcing her. I don't think I would even know how to look at her with a straight face if I did that. Also, this would ruin both sex and marriage, which then defeats the purpose. The whole point is that sex is a bonding experience for us. Doing something like this would just prevent us from achieving the whole point of sex.
(But ok, since you are insisting, let me run this hypothetical scenario... Keep in mind that she knows to the day when she can and can't get pregnant. She gets pregnant very easily. If I initiate sex during her fertile period I'm basically telling her with this that I would want her to get pregnant. So, this is something I would want to discuss with her first, right? And then what, should I then lie that I would want us to try to have another kid, and then act surprised that she can't get pregnant? Then should I go to my primary care physician and ask why can't she get pregnant, even though he is the one who wrote me a referral for this hypothetical vasectomy? Maybe I should also change my name to George Costanza  Sorry, my attempts at humor serve me as a good distraction from all of this. I thank you for your suggestion, but I don't think this particular one would resolve the issue. Or, maybe I misunderstood what you meant?
Regarding: "if she does find out". Well, in that case she wouldn't be allowed to initiate sex, ever again. She would also feel incredibly betrayed. Justifiably so. If we had sex, this would be like having sex with a sex doll, basically. She wouldn't be "into it" at all. The way it is now, at least she is into sex. Maybe her body is not 100% into it, as it is her infertile period, but she is otherwise into sex. The only issue is that there are these periods when we are "roommates" for two weeks every month or so.)


@CatholicDad
So, you are suggesting that if I was a catholic that I could talk to a priest and get advice about how to go about those two weeks of fertile period? I considered that. My view is that this advice you offered is precisely the whole problem with how church is addressing the issue of nfp and sex. In fact, I don't need to guess, I basically already talked to the priest about this recently with my wife. He said similar thing to what you said. If I had the sacraments, and grace, etc, it would be easier for me to go through this whole fertile period. Also, he said something that stuck with me. Basically he compared how he can be celibate his entire life, while it is hard for me to go on for those two weeks without sex. Not in those words, he didn't mean to judge, I think, but he meant to offer his life as an example to me.

Now, if priests really were celibate, then ok, maybe there is something wrong with me, and I should fix my libido or something. However, that is not the case. Priests are not celibate, at least not the way this is presented to the public. There is a really detailed study on priests, hundreds and hundreds of priests. I'm not talking about those 5-6% of abusers, I'm talking about your average normal Joe the priest in your local church. This is your normal good person stuck doing an impossible job. Some priests are maybe somewhat celibate for some period of time (this priest I talked to was ordained not even 3 years ago...) but that doesn't last very long. This information on sex lives of priests was obtained by a therapist, ex-priest himself, who was working as a therapist of priests for decades. The information he obtained was a first-hand information he got from talking to hundreds of priests (and their partners) one-on-one. This is not a hearsay.

The name of the person who did these studies is Richard Sipe. Funnily enough, radical traditional catholics also tend to quote Richard Sipe quite a bit. They use his research to claim that church is rotten from the inside, starting form the current pope downwards. I assume this is also why some of these traditionalists claim that there was an "infiltration" in the church in 19th century, and that there are some evil forces inside that are trying to destroy the church.

In my view, this is just a classic example of scapegoating. Celibacy never existed inside the church, at least not in the sense in which this is being presented to the public. This includes period far before this 19th century nonsense. Some priest are "more celibate", others are less, but the whole celibacy picture that church is trying to paint is a fairy tale. In some sense I think that church actually prefers that public is preoccupied with those 5-6% of abusers in the catholic church, as then the church can easily say that "well, those 5-6% were just bad apples, and we got rid of them, other organizations also have abusers", and so on. This just deflects from the fact that remaining 95% are pretending to be celibate, but are not.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

So these are the people ruling your sexuality and reproductivity.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> So these are the people ruling your sexuality and reproductivity.


Sad, isn't it?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Look brother, I’m not buying any of this. It seems like the intent of your entire thread here is to discredit NFP and the church. I don’t think my wife had a two week fertile period in the 30 years we practiced NFP- but for you it’s supposedly typical. Further, none of the NFP methods would condone “non-orgasmic” penetrative sex.

The book you wrote above discrediting priest celibacy is a ridiculous lie too, bro. I personally (as a sex obsessed married man) have been celibate for 6-8 weeks after the birth of children and my weeny didn’t shrivel up and fall off…. I’d just have wet dreams during these periods (not sinful). My priests have often beat my family members to the hospital when we’ve had medical emergencies in the family- so I’d never believe they were all liars and not living to their vow of celibacy!

I never once, even in my twenties was dumb enough to try full on non orgasmic sex with my wife during fertility- I mean who would ever want to do that? - rev up and stop! That’s not even using common sense. Besides, we all know any Protestant brother would run off to masturbate anyway because I’ve yet to meet a Protestant who believes masturbation is sinful. In fact, any atheist or Protestant brother would be playing with himself almost every day of a fertile period anyway- only a devout catholic would believe that was wrong.

I don’t know what your beef is with NFP and the Catholic Church but I do know this. We’ll all stand before the throne of God someday.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> . It seems like the intent of your entire thread here is to discredit NFP and the church.


He’s not trying to discredit the church or NFP, he is a victim of it and is suffering its effects.

He’s obviously not trying to discredit it as he has been pushing back and defending it against people offering rational advice. 

He’s not trying to discredit it, he is an example of its lunacy.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> He’s not trying to discredit the church or NFP, he is a victim of it and is suffering its effects.
> 
> He’s obviously not trying to discredit it as he has been pushing back and defending it against people offering rational advice.
> 
> He’s not trying to discredit it, he is an example of its lunacy.


Too many things don’t add up…

We never had a two week long fertile period with NFP.

Why write two pages about priest celibacy- how’s that relevant if not to discredit.

What BS!!


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Eyecaless said:


> @Cynthia
> I see what you mean about reading Bible. It might bring us even closer, but it wouldn't resolve this particular issue with sex, I think.


I think it might change her thinking on a lot of things. I've studied the Bible since I was a kid, but wasn't until I started simply reading it straight through that it changed my understanding of it. I'm not saying that your wife will change her mind on this issue, but she might, simply because she will begin to develop a better understanding of the scripture. The Bible is an integrated message. You can't just open the Bible to a section on sex or salvation or grace. Those topics are sprinkled throughout the Bible and can only be fully appreciated and understood in light of the whole. It changed my way of looking at it when I started reading it that way. I still do other studies and reading, but I will never stop reading it through over and over, because of how it changes my understanding.



CatholicDad said:


> Too many things don’t add up…
> We never had a two week long fertile period with NFP.
> Why write two pages about priest celibacy- how’s that relevant if not to discredit.
> What BS!!


He is frustrated! Where is your grace? Also, it's not his fault that she is stuck believing they need to abstain for two weeks. If your wife did this, I'm pretty sure you'd be frustrated as well. Thankfully for you, you and your wife are on the same page. He and his wife are not. If you can't read without getting defensive, perhaps don't read this one. I'm not embarrassed to say that I've had to do that.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

I didn't call priests liars. If anything, they got much worse deal then any of us here. I don't blame them for being sexual. Some of the stories in Sipe's book are just heartbreaking. I'll try to explain later what I meant to say with my rant, but let me for a moment get back to the main point:

@CatholicDad 
If there is a NFP method that has 4-5 day fertile period, as you are saying, and this method is effective, this would resolve all of the issues I have with NFP. I'll shut up here at the forum, you guys can go back to your lives, and I'll be forever thankful that this forum exists  Heck, we'll send you and your wife the best bottle of wine we can find.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Eyecaless said:


> I didn't call priests liars. If anything, they got much worse deal then any of us here. I don't blame them for being sexual. Some of the stories in Sipe's book are just heartbreaking. I'll try to explain later what I meant to say with my rant, but let me for a moment get back to the main point:
> 
> @CatholicDad
> If there is a NFP method that has 4-5 day fertile period, as you are saying, and this method is effective, this would resolve all of the issues I have with NFP. I'll shut up here at the forum, you guys can go back to your lives, and I'll be forever thankful that this forum exists  Heck, we'll send you and your wife the best bottle of wine we can find.


Priests take a vow of celibacy because they want to give all of themselves to God, Jesus and the priesthood. You saying “you don’t blame them for being sexual” is a huge insult to the priesthood. I’d think only a few bad priests are “sexual”- but most are holy men.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

Let me get back to you on Sipe and all of that. For the moment, let me assume Sipe is completely wrong, I don't think he is, but for the sake of argument let us say he is. (Also, let me just note that Sipe is not against the celibacy (the way he defines it), or against religion, etc.)

Putting this issue aside for a moment, could you answer my question about NFP?  Do I understand correctly that you are saying that Creighton NFP method typically needs 4-5 days of abstinence per cycle, and that abstaining for those 4-5 days would be effective at preventing pregnancy?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Priests take a vow of celibacy because they want to give all of themselves to God, Jesus and the priesthood. You saying “you don’t blame them for being sexual” is a huge insult to the priesthood. I’d think only a few bad priests are “sexual”- but most are holy men.


What! That isn't an insult at all. Just because someone takes a vow of celibacy doesn't mean they aren't sexual. It simply means that they vow to not act on their sexuality. As per humans, some priests have trouble keeping the vow of celibacy, just like humans sometimes have trouble keeping vows.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This is a sincere request of those familiar with the Bible, i am not being a sarcastic jerk, I actually want to know and believe it is germane to the OP's issue.
> 
> Is there any witness by Mark or Luke and the guys about Christ ever saying that married adults could not give each other a hand or a hummer or anything?
> 
> ...


No. But Catholics hold the papacy as God's mouthpiece and ever since they wrote those edicts a few decades ago, it's the official doctrine. In another 10 or 20 years they will probably reverse course, but those of us that hold that only God's own words are the truth don't have to worry with these fools.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Eyecaless said:


> Let me get back to you on Sipe and all of that. For the moment, let me assume Sipe is completely wrong, I don't think he is, but for the sake of argument let us say he is. (Also, let me just note that Sipe is not against the celibacy (the way he defines it), or against religion, etc.)
> 
> Putting this issue aside for a moment, could you answer my question about NFP? Do I understand correctly that you are saying that Creighton NFP method typically needs 4-5 days of abstinence per cycle, and that abstaining for those 4-5 days would be effective at preventing pregnancy?


Based on sperm being able to live up to seven days and counting one day for ovulation, that would be 8 days, not 4-5. Seven days would probably be fine, but that's pushing it just a little.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cynthia said:


> What! That isn't an insult at all. Just because someone takes a vow of celibacy doesn't mean they aren't sexual. It simply means that they vow to not act on their sexuality. As per humans, some priests have trouble keeping the vow of celibacy, just like humans sometimes have trouble keeping vows.


He said a lot more than just that about priests in #89 and I find it very insulting. Who are you to tell me what I can get insulted about?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> He said a lot more than just that about priests in #89 and I find it very insulting. Who are you to tell me what I can get insulted about?


Why are you so argumentative? I never said you can't be insulted. I said that saying priests are sexual isn't an insult and explained why. Your comments are often insulting and argumentative, but apparently you can dish it out, but not take it.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@Cynthia
Thanks. What is the efficiency of NFP if one assumes this 8 day fertile period?
[My understanding is that sometimes it is not quite clear from the symptoms/hormone level measurements when exactly ovulation happens, body can release two eggs, and so on, so the marquette method asks for more than 8 days in total, as it adds few days after presumed ovulation. My understanding is that about 13 day is an average fertile period, which would make my wife's situation about average.]


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

I am not trying to be rude or nasty. But from your posts, it sounds like you have no backbone at all. It seems like you just cave in and quickly give in to anything she says or wants with no regards to how you yourself feel and/or are affected. 

This is a big turn off for a lot of ladies. They want a guy who has some confidence and assertiveness. Not a puppy dog attitude of I will do whatever you want and I don't care about my feelings or what I want.... I can see that it appears that you are desperate. But I think you seriously need to pay attention to her behavior to see if she is not emotionally leaving the marriage. 

New found religion 
Far less sex
No real arguments ever

There are more red flags that you posted. But I seriously hope you are at least taking basic steps to protect yourself. I also would look into her browsing history, text/phone records, social media and so on. 

With this sudden major change of behavior and sex life. Have you thought about the possibility that she is just using that two week sex break just to get it on with someone else?

Everything about this is just strange behavior.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@ThatDarnGuy!
I'm a very argumentative person. Annoyingly argumentative. This is my professional deformation.

However, in this situation the power dynamics is completely one-sided. I don't have any hand. She made a unilateral decision and that is it.

Yes, I tried everything, and yes, I'm desperate.

And no, being more assertive just pushes her away more.

We argue, we argue about NFP stuff a lot. I said we don't argue about nonsense material bs stuff, like where should we spend money, or whatnot.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Eyecaless said:


> @ThatDarnGuy!
> I'm a very argumentative person. Annoyingly argumentative. This is my professional deformation.
> 
> However, in this situation the power dynamics is completely one-sided. I don't have any hand. She made a unilateral decision and that is it.
> ...


I then have no idea what you are hoping to get from this site...... you have two choices. Either silently live with this while the resentment poison infiltrates your marriage. Or sit down and say look, you have chosen religion over our marriage. I am sorry, but I am not living the rest of my life with this. 

Just whatever you do, do not get her pregnant with using that NFP method. You absolutely will have some serious deep regrets.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@ThatDarnGuy! 
Well, another option is that we could try making this NFP thing work. NFP is effective if used assuming long fertile period, even CDC says this. If it can be made effective with a shorter period, then problem is solved... However, I don't understand if this is what @CatholicDad is even claiming, that NFP is effective if used with a short period?


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Eyecaless said:


> @ThatDarnGuy!
> Well, another option is that we could try making this NFP thing work. NFP is effective if used assuming long fertile period, even CDC says this. If it can be made effective with a shorter period, then problem is solved... However, I don't understand if this is what @CatholicDad is even claiming, that NFP is effective if used with a short period?


That is the problem with nfp, EVERYTHING is about assumptions, assumptions, and more assumptions . In reality, cycles are all over the place with women and they will confirm this. 

Nfp would be highly effective if every lady was exactly the same, but they are not. Nfp is like doing a household budget every week for years in advance while making major purchases and assuming what your income will be every week. 

Dude, you are playing the Russian roulette game of pregnancy. It's about the worst way of avoiding an unwanted pregnancy out there.The information you are being given about it being highly effective is manure. Any nurse or doctor in the medical community will tell you how bad of a plan this is if you want to avoid pregnancy..... You cannot feel or control pre-ejaculatory fluid. That fluid absolutely can contain active sperm.... All of this information is easily accessible to read about online. 

*Presence of Sperm in Pre-Ejaculatory Fluid of Healthy Males*
Ekachai Kovavisarach et al. J Med Assoc Thai. 2016 Feb.
Show details

Abstract PubMed PMID 
Cite
*Abstract*
*Background: *Coitus interruptus, a common contraceptive method, has a high failure rate. Two reasons have been proposed for this: delayed withdrawal after ejaculation and presence of sperm in the pre-ejaculatory fluid.
*Objective: *To determine whether sperm was present in the pre-ejaculatory fluid of healthy males.
*Material and method: *A total of 42 healthy Thai men were enrolled in the study between August 1, 2009 and November 30, 2009 at the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Rajavithi Hospital. They were asked to collect pre-ejaculatory fluid smears in two glass slides and then deposit a semen sample in a plastic bottle after masturbation. Microscopic examination of wet and air-dried preparations and routine semen analyses were done consecutively in the human genetics laboratory.
*Results: *Actively mobile sperm were found in 16.7% (7/42 cases) of the pre-ejaculatory penile secretions of subjects whose sperm counts were 2 in 2 cases, 3 in 3 cases and 4 per high power field in the other 2 cases of positive sperm. Semen analyses were normal in 41/42 volunteers (97.6%); there was one case of oligospermia (14 x 10⁶/ml).
*Conclusion: *Actively mobile sperm were discovered in the pre-ejaculatory fluid of 16.7% of healthy men.



Here is a second article to read

*Is Your Ovulation Tracker Wrong? How to Really Know When You’re Fertile*
By Lindsay Meisel | Published Nov 1, 2018 | Last updated Feb 20, 2020✓ Fact checked








Once you’ve decided you want to conceive, you probably want it to happen quickly. To that end, you might be using an ovulation tracker to find your fertile window.
There are a variety of tools (apps, fertility calendars, ovulation calculators, and ovulation tests) that promise to pinpoint ovulation, and therefore your fertile window. However, the reality is that the timing of ovulation is unpredictable—even if you have a regular cycle.
Studies show that most women _don’t_ ovulate on the fourteenth day of their cycle, as they are commonly told. (In fact, one study showed that 70% of women have fertile windows that don’t fall entirely within cycle days 10 – 17.)
So, if your ovulation tracker follows the “ovulation occurs on cycle day 14” formula, then chances are it’s not accurate. Here, we’ll review:


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

My wife uses hormone test to determine when she is ovulating. It is theoretically effective, but it requires a very long abstinence period about two weeks every month. _That_ method is probably effective. Yeah, I doubt that other methods of NFP are equally effective and have short abstinence periods. 

We don't do anything sexual during fertile period, as it was just making things worse. I know that preejaculate can make her pregnant. This was an act of desperation.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@CatholicDad
Let me respond to why I mentioned study by Sipe on priests. I think that there is a strong parallel between what church is asking of priests and what it is asking of lay people. Also, there is a strong parallel in the outcomes, of what priests do and what laity do.

I'm not concerned here about rules, or about judging people, or anything else. I'm simply trying to see what is the actual situation on the ground. What _actually_ happens with people who are using NFP, and are they even actually using NFP as advertised?

Let me start with what Sipe is estimating about priests. While he has information from one-on-one interviews with hundreds of priests and their partners, some of the numbers below are estimated in indirect ways, as he is making estimates for the entire population of priests.

Sipe gives a rough estimates of how many priests are celibate, and at what level. At any given time about 50% are in a sexual relationship (out of 50% about 2/3 are in hetero and 1/3 in homosexual relationship). Of the remainder about 40% are not currently in a sexual relationship but are basically going back-and-forth, 8% seem quite firm in not having sex with other people despite some past failures, and 2% have reached the point where for all intents and purposes they are irreversibly in the state in which they are not going to have sex with anyone. Sipe calls these 2% (and to some extent 8%) celibate, but even then, Sipe's definition of celibate is not necessarily what is advertised by the church.

Now, keeping this in mind, let me try to make a parallel to laity and NFP. I can't use priest data to conclude anything about laity, but I'm asking here what is the _actual_ on-the-ground situation with laity when it comes to NFP?

1. As we know, a vast majority of catholics not only don't do NFP, they don't even know what is NFP.

2. Those catholics who know about NFP mostly ignore it.

3. That small fraction of a fraction of catholics that actually say they are "doing NFP" I think are not actually doing NFP. I talked to very religious catholics who claim do be doing NFP but when you talk to them one-on-one you see that actually they are abstaining for few days in the cycle, then when they are not sure the fertile period they use a condom/pullout or similar, and for the rest of the time they use NFP when they are certain that wife is not fertile. Even worse, there seem to be quite a few catholics where the guy "slips up" on his own and then confesses, and then does it again.

There are some older studies on the subject that claim that this is basically what is going on with those who claim to "use NFP". There is not a lot of recent data on the subject. I don't know why.

Therefore, my problem with NFP is basically that it is asking of catholic laity to do something that is not consistent with human nature. Similarly, priests are asked also to do stuff that are not consistent with human natures.

Or, maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are catholics who use NFP consistently as advertised, and who have completely internalized NFP and are some equivalent of those "2%" of priests who are sort-of-kind-of celibate. I don't think I've met anyone like that before. If church has these examples, why is it not advertising this? I see a lot of women stories online about NFP, but very few stories from men describing in detail what exactly has been their practice with NFP. I don't care about preaching. I care about what _actually_ happens to these people in _real_ _life_. Not stories about "slip ups" and constant confessions on the same topic, not walking around like loaded shotgun trying to avoid any kind of temptation (we have a friend who can't go to a gym for this reason), or constantly living in the fear of "slip ups" or whatever. That is just nonsense. Are there men who actually follow what NFP is asking them to do??

If there are no priests who follow their thing, I doubt that there are many laity who follow theirs. Also, in some sense it is easier to completely be celibate all the time, than to sleep next to a very sexy (and ovulating) wife you had sex with a week ago, but now need to wait for another week to have sex. It is just torture. Basically, I can't even touch her then, as then we can't get our hands off of each other. It would be easier almost to be a priest... and not deal with the whole on/off sex torture.

I'm not judging any of these people, all I'm saying is that hierarchy in church is putting up this facade of NFP, and that the facade is even more obvious than that for priest's celibacy. If the data on priest's celibacy is what it is, how can you expect anything better for lay catholics and their supposed use of NFP?

Basically, I would be ok with being in group "3" where we would use NFP for part of the cycle and then use condoms for part of her fertile period. We could abstain for 5-6 days or whatever when she is the most fertile, but then would use condoms for the rest of the period. We did something like this for a year. It worked great, sex was great, relationship was good as well. She thinks that basically this internal peace means that devil won in some sense. She thinks that when you sin that that somehow deceives you to think that everything is good when it actually isn't.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@Cynthia
What you suggested would actually work but I don't know how to do that. Yes, I suspect that my wife has a spiritual issue (not necessarily psychological). There are some things that I could list here, but I think I already provided too much personally identifiable information on this thread. Now, the thing is that it is not really on me to tell her that she has a problem with this or that. I could ask assistance of some of her priests, but even then it might backfire. She can't help herself if she doesn't see that there is a problem.

My wife talked to someone else, a very religious life-long catholic, on her own initiative. This other person was telling my wife a story of Tamar from old testament, and how Tamar did something "sinful" because she was in some sense interested in a greater good (I'm paraphrasing). Anyways, this whole thing backfired, and I doubt how this could work. When it comes to sexual "sin" she would believe radical-traditionalist like Taylor Marshall, or priests serving latin mass, but not many other folks. I mean, she would talk to others about many things, but when it comes to "sexual sin" it is only a very small fraction of catholics she could talk to about.

Maybe talking about stuff in general would eventually lead to her seeing things differently and maybe realizing why is she actually so stuck on the sexual sin. I can only hope, but it might take years.

Anyways, I think that ultimately something along the lines of what you @Cynthia are suggesting would work, but it is not clear how to get there. Thank you again for your suggestion.


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

I'm sorry for the situation your are in. The official Catholic position on this doesn't make sense to me. Since they use the scripture "Be fruitful and multiply" as a command for everyone, then NFP makes no sense at all. Yet, they take the situation with Onan and apply that to everyone as well, when it had little to do with family planning and everything to do with how he was treating the woman he was with. Then the document that you linked to saying that a woman should have sex with a man who she is in fear for her life of. In my opinion, it is a huge disconnect with reality and a serious (and obvious) twisting of the scripture. Plus, what you said about it being impossible and going against they way God designed us makes sense to me as well.

I think some people dig in deeper, rather than seeing the disconnect, because they are trying to make sense of it all and doing the best they can to please God. I don't think any of this tension in your marriage, over this NFP, is pleasing God. I think what you are facing in your marriage is against his design for your marriage relationship.

I do believe that when a man and woman make love, they have to be open to the possibility of children, because no method is failsafe. Even vasectomy can fail. But that doesn't mean that we have to resign ourselves to having more children than we can reasonably care for or than we believed God is calling us to. And I don't mean they have to be rich, just have their needs met. Large families can be wonderful and successful. I'm very glad that my dad came from a large family. I have lots of cousins and five of the best aunts on the planet. I often pray and thank God for them.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

@Cynthia
Yes, I agree with most of what you said. Also, I agree what you said about large families, I'm fortunate to come from a large family myself.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

[_Edit: below is a reply to a post by @CatholicDad that got erased somehow._]

@CatholicDad
You didn't answer my question that I asked several times. Is this Creighton method of NFP you guys were using efficient when assuming 4-5 day fertile period?

I'm asking this because typical assumed fertile period with Marquette method of NFP is about 13 days, so what my wife is doing is within the average.

Maybe what is going on here is that you were using a method that didn't really plan family size but simply spaced out pregnancies? I'm happy that this worked for you guys, but you need to provide a bit more context here.

Richard Sipe is the person who did these studies I mentioned. He used to be a priest, he worked for church for decades. He is catholic, he is not against the catholic faith, and he is not even against the celibacy!! You should try reading his books and how he describes priests who he calls celibate. He published several books on the topic. You seem to be angry at the messenger who did these studies (Sipe), and at me for pointing out his work, but I suspect you are actually angry at someone else in the hierarchy of the church? You said yourself that there are "a lot of bad bishops" out there (who did you have in mind? McCarrick?). Note that I didn't label anyone here as "bad", that is not up to me. See your earlier messages.

I'm here simply trying to understand what actually happens with lay people when it comes to NFP, and what happens with priests when it comes to celibacy. I'm not judging anyone, I'm just asking what is the reality of the situation here.

Let me put it this way, if I may. If Jesus came back tomorrow, would he say "oh, wow, you guys really wrote down some nice laws about sexual morality, that is great" or would he actually wonder about what is actually going on in the world when it comes to the issue of sex?

We can all pretend that catholics follow these rules, man, but that is simply not the case. Not even close.


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## Eyecaless (11 mo ago)

... also, I'm not saying that these rules shouldn't be followed because they are hard, or because someone else is not following them. I'm not a relativist.

No, I'm saying that these rules on sex from the Catholic church are simply incompatible with the human nature. Church is asking people to do things that are unnatural. This is like asking a fish to climb a tree and then telling the fish it is stupid because it was unable to climb the tree. See? I'm not mad at the fish that it couldn't climb a tree, and I'm not judging the fish that it couldn't climb the tree. My issue is with the hierarchy that is asking fish to climb a tree. In this case: my issue is with the church hierarchy that is asking priests to be celibate and is asking 100% adherence to NFP from lay people.


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