# Man up, be more responsive to HER needs, help more...



## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm sure the more regular visitors to TAM of you will have read some of my posts and so know that I am in a sexless marriage.

I've aired some of my 'frustrations' on here in the past. I have been told that I should 'man up', be more intouch with my wifes needs, help more round the house, give her all the unconditional massages etc and expect nothing in return or maybe she just isnt interested in sex with ME....if thats the case why isnt she having sex with somone else or her finger then? 
I do all of that, and more. 

Let me share with you what happened yesterday which might explain why some of us tend to lose interest and couldn't be bothered anymore.
The relationship I have with my wife other than sex is more or less fine. She simply isnt interested in sex...

This is our text/sms converstation yesterday...

Her 'I have an appointment to see the gynaecologist at 2pm' (routine check up)

Me 'Ah..good. Hope it goes well. Maybe ask her for something to make you want me and my 'little man' more often!'

Her 'I do want him more often...I'm just lazy and you never seem to have the time...we both need to work at it'

Me 'Absolutely...I love you and I want to make love to you more than maybe once a month'

Her ' well come home now then!'

ME 'I wish I could...am about to go into a meeting and when the gynae looks up you she won't want to see a load of 'me' up there!'

Her 'Lol! True. I should be home by 3pm, I'll text you and maybe you can join me!'

Me 'Can't wait! Text me and I'll be there! 'He' is already waking up!

Our children were with friends for the afternoon so it was 'game on'. Home is 5 mins from the office.

I never got 'that' text message. When I got home that evening (6.30pm) and asked if she just got home....'Nah....was back just after 3pm'....'Ah...I thought you were going to text me...'
Slight look of horror on her face...'I forgot....I watched a film on TV'.....'So a watching a film is more important than me?'
'No, I simply forgot'.

I felt hurt and rejected. The ball was firmly in her court, she 'forgot' to 'play' it. I'm not going to BEG my wife for sex.

Its things like this that make me - and I'm sure many other husbands in the same position - think 'why even bother' trying to be proactive in improving our sex life and marriage?

Before people say 'Divorce'....its not that easy...my career is 'here' we are from 'there'....if I leave my wife will go back taking the children with her. 'There' is 5,000 miles away. I would get to see my children maybe 2-3 times a year....they are all I have left...If I divorce, I will be left with nothing. Thats why I stay. I don't really have a choice.

Thanks for listening. Whinge over!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

After the gyno... there can be discomfort, cramping, discharge. Gyno isn't foreplay  

I'm sorry for your frustration... but I have to ask to a question.

If the kids were with friends for the afternoon, how come you didn't come home from work until 630? 

If she wanted sex, you would have come home earlier? But since she didn't text you for sex, you stayed at work. Hmmm. Not judging here, but if there is a next opportunity, take the quality time with your wife without the kids. 

Just thinking that if you had gone home early, kids were gone, things might have gone differently.?


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## Jeff74 (Feb 11, 2012)

Try it again and see what happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

I see the situation above so differently.

In other threads, I've asked the OP to try to explain where the breakdown really occurred, because its is hard to know exactly how an afternoon like this didn't lead to sex. I mean, we all initiate and respond differently. Some require verbal approval before continuing in sex. Others think that the wife needs to do something different than what your wife did in order for sex to happen. I'm in a marriage where neither of us has ever really verbalized that we want sex. We just do it based on the perceived receptiveness of the other. We've had a very healthy sex life for 25 years of marriage, plus the dating years.

What I'm getting at is that I would tend to be flattered if my wife responded like yours did. When I got home, the forgotten text would be no big deal, because I know what her intentions were. After such a text, we'd probably go after it immediately. No verbal signals needed. I simply make love to her and she responds if she is still in the mood, or sends our understood signals if she isn't (which tend to be along the line of, "I started").

I do tend to be very direct and agressive, which she likes, but I don't think this is an issue of manning up, or really trying to understand her more. Without further clarification, it seems like more of an issue where she or you (or both) have put certain expectation barriers in place. Perhaps you want her to meet you half way when it comes to sex? Another poster once said that he wanted his wife to initiate more often, so he settled for a nearly sexless life.

I'll point out that in really getting to know my wife, she is very turned off by the way some people focus on the act of sex as their goal, and use comments about it in arguments and discussions. It is a very subtle point. My wife wants sex to be a very natural expression of the ongoing passion in our day to day life. She just doesn't want it to sound like a chore duty, so in 25 years, there is just never a discussion of whether or not she is intiating sex enough, or willing to have sex. We stress intimacy, which may or may not lead to sex. As a discussion point, where you say that sex is not frequent enough, it is incredibly easy for any built up resentment to become attached to the duty of sex. We agreed before marriage that the most fundamental expression of marriage is physical intimacy, so neither of us would every turn down passionate kisses, or touch. This just happens to evolve into sex about three times a week during the workweek, and more often on the weekends.

I understand that all of this may be obvious and in place, but that your problems will be much more complex. I'm just throwing out that it may be worth breaking down the way the two of you initiate sex, and try to see if she is attaching resentment to the process itself, while another more natural expression of intimacy might not have the same negative connotations to her.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Dean...this will be my 69th post (what a co-incidence!) hahaha!

I'm bored of going into great detail....but...I am one of the many husbands who no matter what they do get 'pity sex' maybe once a month if I'm lucky. My wife just isn't really interested in it and isn't interested in understanding what it means to me.
We have been to counselling (I still go) but when the counselor started getting a bit 'tougher' on the sex issue my wife simply stopped going. She really and truly thinks that once a month (at most) is enough. As far as she is concerned there is NO problem. When I try to talk to her about our sex life she clams up tells and me thats all I'm interested in.
We have been together 20 years, married for 14. At the beginning sex was about twice a week...no problem. First child came...post natal sex (as in alot of marriages) dwindled to nil as the new arrival knackered you....but the frequency of sex simply never returned (as it does in many marriages)....surpringly our second child came along...postnatal sex dropped to nil (understandably) but then never returned... It was really as if I had done my 'job' - given my wife two (lovely!!) children....and that was it. Sex = procreation, we had achieved that so finished. Wife no longer interested in it. Hormones checked, all OK. 

So what is the point of banging your head against a brick wall?

I get the occasional twinkle of light coming through...like yesterday..."yes I do want you and 'him' more often' etc....come home now....knowing I probably can't just drop things and run....so she says she'll text me when she's home and if I could join her for some 'fun'... except then she sits watching TV instead. 

I'm not going to chase her...I've done it too much and been rejected too often. 
I was really looking forward to going home for a bit of quality time together and to make love....She made the suggestion, I wanted HER to go through with it, because I wanted HER to want ME, I wanted her to spend the afternoon like me....all happy and excited and cant wait to get home, meet up with me and....she 'forgot' and simply sta there watching TV = not important to her.

Deejov - I run my own company...during 'normal' office hours we have people around - secretary etc who can cover for me...so I can slink home in the afternoon for a couple of hours...but come 5pm when they all go home I have to stay on till 18-1815hrs ish as alot of our dealings are with a company in a time zone one hour behind. They close at 5pm their time = 6pm ours.
Thats why I didnt get home till nearly 6.30pm.

We had a perfect opportunity yesterday afternoon...my wife decided (for once....a rear glimmer of hope) to instigate...but never followed through.

I'm not going to chase her and beg for sex...been there, done that, got the 'Rejected' t-shirt. Have pride.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

She's not going to want you sexually if you act like a wussy.
You are acting like a wussy when you say text me and I'll come running. You have to take what you want. This will make your wife more sexual toward you.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I now what it's like to finally get your wife in a responsive mood but then it just goes away. I know that it sucks to feel like your begging for sex. It ruins everything for you (and her).

I've found that I have to rekindle her mood, and bringing up the hurt feelings right away just leads to her getting defensive (mood killer). Flirting with her and just starting anew isn't begging, so I try to keep things on the positive (though it's hard I know).

If I feel like I have to mention that she forgot me, I try to mention it in a playful way while trying to get her into the mood again. I'll say things like: "sooooo... we didn't get together at 3, where were weeee?" (and I kiss her and do the things that I know relax her and get her into the mood).

The thing I keep in mind with my wife, is that while I'll think of sex frequently throughout the day... it's just not that way for my wife at all. She'll just never think of sex on her own, so if the moment is lost I just expect her to forget all about it. It's not that she doesn't love me, it's just that's how her mind works and I just have to live with it.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

So are you saying that on the very rare occasion that she steps up to the mark I should simply play hard to get?

She'll love that...because thats exactly what she wants...to be able to say; 'Well I tried but YOU weren't interested'...

Browncoat - I hear what you are saying....Had she snuggled up to me later in bed and said 'darling...I'm sorry I forgot...' as she started to fondle my balls...NO PROBLEM!! ALL FORGIVEN!

But she made absolutely NO attempt.

(edited to respond to Browncoat)


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

7737 said:


> So are you saying that on the very rare occasion that she steps up to the mark I should simply play hard to get?
> 
> She'll love that...because thats exactly what she wants...to be able to say; 'Well I tried but YOU weren't interested'...
> 
> ...


Oh I wouldn't wait until bedtime. I have kids, but as soon as they are in bed (and if I'm in the mood... believe me the kids are getting to bed on time ). I try to rekindle the moment then, before she gets tired. I just try and put it out of my mind that we lost out on an earlier moment, since there's nothing to be gained by going back to that.

Main thing is that I try to stay in the driver's seat, I know that if I wait for my wife to respond on her own or remember a feeling she had earlier... lol it will never happen.

I never play hard to get with my wife, she's in the mood like 1-2 times a month... I'm not wasting those precious times like that on petty mind games.


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## inmygut (Apr 2, 2011)

7737 said:


> I'm sure the more regular visitors to TAM of you will have read some of my posts and so know that I am in a sexless marriage.
> 
> I've aired some of my 'frustrations' on here in the past. I have been told that I should 'man up', be more intouch with my wifes needs, help more round the house, give her all the unconditional massages etc and expect nothing in return or maybe she just isnt interested in sex with ME....if thats the case why isnt she having sex with somone else or her finger then?
> I do all of that, and more.
> ...


Read the Married Man Sex Life blog and book.
Put it into practice. (and confirm that there isn't someone else in the picture )
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

When you have been rejected so often in the past (and lets face it, no one likes rejection), your 'default' to protect yourself from being rejected, therefore hurt, is not to put yourself in the position where you will get rejected.

Maybe what I should have said years ago is; 'You are my wife...I do things for you, you do things for me, including sex. If you want all the nice things from me but aren't prepared to respond with what I like, then lest just call it quits'....

I suppose I should have done just that before the children came along. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

deejov said:


> If the kids were with friends for the afternoon, how come you didn't come home from work until 630?
> 
> If she wanted sex, you would have come home earlier? But since she didn't text you for sex, you stayed at work. Hmmm. Not judging here, but if there is a next opportunity, take the quality time with your wife without the kids.


Don't forget that there was no understanding as to what his wife's plans were after the Dr. visit. When he got home, he first asked his wife "did you just get home?" I don't think he asked this sarcastically.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

No one else in the picture


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Hicks said:


> She's not going to want you sexually if you act like a wussy.
> You are acting like a wussy when you say text me and I'll come running. You have to take what you want. This will make your wife more sexual toward you.


I understand what you are saying, but I think it goes much deeper than this. You see posts here all the time of what I would think the OPs wife would post, if she chose to. It makes me wonder if it is a situation where a guy is totally crazy about his wife, and she uses this to change the marriage dynamic into one where she is, in essence, in control sexually. Instead of realizing what a wonderful thing she probably has, and responding accordingly, she puts him in a place where he carries the larger burden for intimacy. She elevates herself, and her needs, above his. Its sad that what she might respond to is him treating her like something he stepped in on the way home from work.

When we tell him to man up, or to try to better understand her needs, its easy to forget that many guys like this have put her on a pedestal for many years. Why doesn't she have any burden to figure him out? I understand the argument that she is not here, so we can't post responses to her. It is just sad. He can treat her as if he is taking what is his, if this is the underlying problem, but I think it is much harder to hide the underlying signal that she is possibly sensing. The sense that he more crazy about her than she is for him.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Buried in a previous post was this gem:



Halien said:


> We agreed before marriage that the most fundamental expression of marriage is physical intimacy...


This understanding is key and cannot be assumed to be present in anyone's marriage. Many here on TAM have a story of either "I saw the warning signs before marriage but did not heed them" or "he / she agreed at first but has changed and genuinely does not care if we have sex or not"


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Interesting ...

Ex used to do the same thing. Basically she would declare she was 'in the mood' specifically at tmes when she knew I was not available.

You need to start 'forgetting' things that are important to her. I'm going to presume that you know I'm not talking about tit for tat, but more along the lines of lowering the thermostat.

The other thing that you simply cannot do ... is pout. Just don't. Then you look like a kid that didn't get what they wanted. It makes you look weak, unattractive, and reinforces her belief that you are only interested in sex. Believe me, I know how difficult that can be when your wife tells you she wants you ... and when you show up, she claims she 'forgot'.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

You're reading too much into the whole text issue. First off, people often stop responding as a way to control the conversation (often unknowingly) and keep the sender entised. She didn't mean anything by it, women are notorious for doing this because men chase... Though there are situations where it isn't always possible and people do forget sometimes.

You also got what is all to familiarly known as a "blur" where she forgot about the seduction from before. Again don't take it personally... That conversation you had died after you both stopped texting and your "wtf?!" response seemed out of place. You have to let those kind of things slide and seduce her all over again. Being married you should know you might not always get sex when you were promised, but those kind words and the clean house she comes home to will no go unappreciated later on. 

Instead of allowing your emotions to get you needy or resentful around her just act like it's no big deal. If she wants to curl up on the couch then offer to get her something to show you care then give her the space she needs while you do your own thing. What, you going to fein interest in a movie that's half way through in hopes that she will validate your action? I bet there were dishes just begging to be washed and three or four things on her "honey do" list you haven't done. Just don't make it appearant that you're doing them to please her.

If you're having this much trouble then check out some of the dating books. You can download a ton of them from thepiratebay or isohunt for free. You can get just about all the same knowledge from a handful of them but go ahead and get "the mystery method" or "magic bullets". Either one will work to explain a few things and how if you're going to have sex with your wife you have to first attract her, then comfort her, then seduce her. There's a lot more to it than that ad you'll have to be more confident but an afternoon of reading will really set you straight.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Nsweet - 'offer to get her something to show I care'...??? Yeah right! How about HER doing something for ME occasionally to show that SHE cares?
Why continue depositing money into your account if you dont get any interest in return?

Deejo - I think I might just start having memory lapses....


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

7737 said:


> if I leave my wife will go back taking the children with her. 'There' is 5,000 miles away. I would get to see my children maybe 2-3 times a year....they are all I have left...If I divorce, I will be left with nothing. Thats why I stay. I don't really have a choice.


I really don't get why people assume that men have little rights regarding their children's lives. You are married to their mother and a daily part of their lives. It's easy to argue that removing you from their lives is not in their best interest.

She simply cannot just uproot them and move without your consent. She would have to have permission from a judge to take them out of the state, much less out of the country. It's likely she would have to stay in town and make a new separate life for herself that allows you regular time with your kids.

I'm not saying that divorce is appropriate at this stage. But, rather than assume the "doom and gloom" scenario you should contact a good attorney and see exactly what your rights are.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

DTO - we are expats living and working in Africa, but we are from Europe. You can have joint custody...the children cannot spend 6 months here and 6 months in Europe. 
It is quite possible (probably) that a judge would give my wife custody but me unrestricted access. They wouldn't be made 'wards of court'..... Our eldest son starts 'secondary' school in Europe in September anyway...


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

7737 said:


> Nsweet - 'offer to get her something to show I care'...??? Yeah right! How about HER doing something for ME occasionally to show that SHE cares?
> Why continue depositing money into your account if you dont get any interest in return?
> 
> Deejo - I think I might just start having memory lapses....


Dude, you are getting bad advice. This has nothing to do with "doing more things for her". The more you do, the less you'll get. You are her BETA roommate. You still have a little sex appeal, so she plays a bit, but this is going the wrong direction fast. Go buy Married Man Sex Life - like now and read it.

You can send Athol a thank you when your wife turns into a sexual dynamo.

Also, read No More Mr. Nice Guy. You are building resentments and this is a death sentence for your marriage. Your text exchange is whiny. I would be turned off. Where is the aggressive, sexy, funny man that wooed this woman however many years ago? He didn't show up for that text exchange and the movie was just a satisfying.

Wife: "I have a 2 pm gyno appointment"
You: "Cool, I'll be home at 3:30 with my white lab coat to make sure she did a good job. Dress appropriately and wait on the couch. Text me when you leave the appointment."


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

You seem to have the typical responsive desire wife - and the typical male desire to have that responsive desire wife spontaneously combust. But, that's like looking at wood in the fireplace and expecting it to light and catch afire on its own. How often does that happen?

She RESPONDS to YOU. If you give her nothing to respond to, then you won't get much.

If you don't want to take responsibility for the outcome that you really desire, that's fine. Just accept the consequences of it.

But give her something to respond to - give her something to excite her - give her a man who has himself together - who is confident, self-assured, inspiring - someone who is a leader - and see what kind of response you can get.

She needs you to lead her in this area right now - cuz if you can lead her out of this wilderness, she could learn from you how to stoke the fires and keep them going too.

But she needs your help to do it ... or you can wait around and see if she has an epiphany someday ... or she lets her fire be stoked somewhere else.

Lead the charge, man! You should have taken a couple of hours off work and followed right up with what you desired. You showed her that you were all hot air and no fire, just as much as you believe that's what she did.

Best wishes.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

FNG - might try that. next time I know she is home alone....txt; 'U at home'
'Yup'
'Ok, see you in the bedroom naked in 5 mins....'

I know what her response will be....but I hope I'm wrong...so very wrong!


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

7737 said:


> When you have been rejected so often in the past (and lets face it, no one likes rejection), your 'default' to protect yourself from being rejected, therefore hurt, is not to put yourself in the position where you will get rejected.
> 
> Maybe what I should have said years ago is; 'You are my wife...I do things for you, you do things for me, including sex. If you want all the nice things from me but aren't prepared to respond with what I like, then lest just call it quits'....
> 
> I suppose I should have done just that before the children came along. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!


I'm in the same situation, I get it. I get rejected... a LOT and it hurts, a LOT (not every time, but more often than not). There's also the cumulative hurt that comes from repeated rejection. I get it. It completely sucks.

I have 4 kids, and yeah sometimes I play the thoughts of maybe I should have jumped off this ship before I had kids. That line of thinking just leaves me down and really isn't productive. It's hard, and I struggle with it at times but I just keep reminding myself it's just not worth going there. I'm in the situation I'm in, and I'm not leaving my kids... so I'm just going to have to make things work. End of story.

I know for my wife, years ago she just didn't understand at all how important sex was to me until she read some books on the subject to understand how men feel/think about sex. Before then we were a sexless marriage. For the first 10 or 12 years of our marriage I'd say on average we had sex 2-10 times a year (it was *really* hard for me).

Since reading those books, we've come to an agreement that she's open making out 2-3 times a week. Most of the time that results in sex, because as she describes it to me "I'm able to pull it out of her". Meaning that she wasn't interested in sex at all at the start, but while we make out I'm able to get her into the mood most of the time (again only try 2-3 times a week). I have to be very patient and not try and rush or pressure her into sex.

It's made a big difference in our relationship... not that we are close to where I'd like to be, but it's a ton better than before.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

*Me 'Absolutely...I love you and I want to make love to you more than maybe once a month'

Her ' well come home now then!'

ME 'I wish I could...am about to go into a meeting and when the gynae looks up you she won't want to see a load of 'me' up there!'*

Answer: 

_"You know what, call and cancel your appointment."

"I just told the meeting I had a family crisis and I had to go"

"I am 5 minutes away, start without me, and I'll be ripping my tie off as I come up the stairs....."_


She issued you a challenge and you let it drop. Work was more important to you, than she was. Next time get home and act like you own it.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

7737 said:


> So are you saying that on the very rare occasion that she steps up to the mark I should simply play hard to get?
> 
> She'll love that...because thats exactly what she wants...to be able to say; 'Well I tried but YOU weren't interested'...
> 
> ...


Could you explain why the sex would have to follow the pattern you describe? Why would she have to come to bed later and fondle your balls? What I'm getting at is if you got home and immediately made your move with 100% confidence, and an attitude that tells her that both of you are lucky that this is happening, would she have kicked you in the groin? Maybe she would stop you and tell you that she is just not in the mood, despite the flirting texts earlier?

As I said in the earlier reply, there are plenty of posts that suggest that the wife is low drive. Others say that she never initiates. Years of pity sex. I've rarely seen a post that also talks about exactly how that refusal to respond takes place, though. 

People say that those of us who are alpha types have little compassion for the feelings of our wife, but that is really not the case. We just approach sex very openly. Every relationship before that was like this. Relationship dynamics are very important, so sex is approached from a position of confidence.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> I'm in the same situation, I get it. I get rejected... a LOT and it hurts, a LOT (not every time, but more often than not). There's also the cumulative hurt that comes from repeated rejection. I get it. It completely sucks.
> 
> I have 4 kids, and yeah sometimes I play the thoughts of maybe I should have jumped off this ship before I had kids. That line of thinking just leaves me down and really isn't productive. It's hard, and I struggle with it at times but I just keep reminding myself it's just not worth going there. I'm in the situation I'm in, and I'm not leaving my kids... so I'm just going to have to make things work. End of story.
> 
> ...


It can make a HUGE difference when you have two WILLING participants and they make an effort to try and understand each other.

It's wonderful your wife took the time to try and understand about you and your sexuality. Now YOU take the time to learn about hers - hers is different than yours - not worse, just different. You are spontaneous, she is responsive. 

Do You Understand Female Sexual Desire? | Psychology Today

Nothing wrong with either one of you ... but you both have to LEARN how to make it work together. So glad to see that you two are working on that.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Halien said:


> People say that those of us who are alpha types have little compassion for the feelings of our wife, but that is really not the case. We just approach sex very openly. Every relationship before that was like this. Relationship dynamics are very important, so sex is approached from a position of confidence.


:iagree:

This is a true statement.

The compassion and passion is that you love her, ravage her, make her feel like she is desired in an over the top way.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

DTO said:


> Buried in a previous post was this gem:
> 
> 
> 
> This understanding is key and cannot be assumed to be present in anyone's marriage. Many here on TAM have a story of either "I saw the warning signs before marriage but did not heed them" or "he / she agreed at first but has changed and genuinely does not care if we have sex or not"


It can't be assumed that this dynamic simply 'exists', where intimacy is taken as a given in the relationship. In fact, it can only be assumed that it will not exist until one or more of the two bring this dynamic into every single sexual experience. If you approach sex like a negotiation, SOMEONE will start bundling resentment into to it. Instead, if you approach it like a basic human need, with full confidence in your ability to meet her needs, then the regular refusal is a very clear statement of how she views the marriage.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Enchantment - exactly. It takes TWO to tango. She said that we both needed to make the effort. 

The meeting I was on my way to way with a major hotel...if we get their business it will be a big thing for us as I have been trying to get a foot in the door for months. Simply cancelling my meeting to go home for a bonk would have been irresponsible and a very bad business move.
And seriously, having sex an hour before visiting a gynae that would involve an 'internal' examination...???? 

My wife really showed some willing, it encouraged me and made me feel good...it was a small glimmer of hope....that was then dashed by her simply 'forgetting'.

Or maybe she was being far more devious....??? Asking me to come home for sex at a time she knew I couldn't....then conveniently 'forgetting' to text me at a time when I could and would have gone home....

She has NEVER given me oral....what next? 'Hey honey, whats the weather like in Cape Town?....What are you doing?...Ah...I'm feeling really horny at the moment..I really want you...so much so that I would even give you that BJ you've always dreamed of....'

Pity I'm 6 hours flying time away. Next time I 'moan'...'But I offered! Your fault you were 6 hours away'...

She's not stupid!


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> It can make a HUGE difference when you have two WILLING participants and they make an effort to try and understand each other.
> 
> It's wonderful your wife took the time to try and understand about you and your sexuality. Now YOU take the time to learn about hers - hers is different than yours - not worse, just different. You are spontaneous, she is responsive.
> 
> ...


I think I've seen you link that article before, but never read it until now. Wow it's so true (esp the first half of the article)!

I used to get really frustrated that my wife never initiated anything. While I still kind of wish she would initiate once in a while that description of "responsive desire" hits the nail on the head. That's exactly what it's like for us... only in my wife's case she really only has it in her to "respond" about 1-3 times a week max (though that may be due to pain during/after sex... and that's a whole other topic of conversation).


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

7737 said:


> Enchantment - exactly. It takes TWO to tango. She said that we both needed to make the effort.
> 
> The meeting I was on my way to way with a major hotel...if we get their business it will be a big thing for us as I have been trying to get a foot in the door for months. Simply cancelling my meeting to go home for a bonk would have been irresponsible and a very bad business move.
> And seriously, having sex an hour before visiting a gynae that would involve an 'internal' examination...????
> ...


Hi 7737 ~

Maybe THIS occasion may have been a bad idea based upon the circumstances (anything with 'gynecologist' in it is maybe a no go), but there may be other opportunities in the future. 

Can you tell us more about your wife?

It's hard to tell from your current snapshots of her whether she 'plays' you and is just a tease (or whether that is your impression of her), whether she is ignorant of how it feels to you, whether she is disgruntled that you don't get her, or resentful of you, etc.

How much sex are you having? How often? How long has it been sexless? How long have you two been married?

Does SHE perceive the sexlessness as a problem?

The fact that she bantered with you was a positive thing ... when a wife totally turns off you usually get radio silence and a cold shoulder. 

Could it be possible that as a responsive desire person, she needs your help to get back to that place of wanting it? I am that way. My H and I can tease all day ... I may feel very much like it, but we have other obligations and can't meet up and the moment of desire is gone. When we do meet, we need to start it again ... I no longer have that desire - as it was responsive to the moment we created in our teasing. What would have happened if you would have led and tried to recreate a moment of desire when you had gotten home?

Do you think she is teasing you or testing you?

What improvements have you made - not for her... for you? 

Everyone always talks about 'manning up' like it's supposed to be some manipulation to get your wife to want sex...but that's NOT what it is... the ROOT of manning up, the essence of it is to make yourself grow into a man of conviction, character, confidence ... not to manipulate. It's to help you grow to be a calm, confident, competent leader... and in doing so you may find that you have someone along who sees that and is willing to follow.

Best wishes.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Or maybe she was testing you. 

To see if you were willing to make your sex life together a priority.

To see if you were willing to be irresponsible and spontaneous with her. To step outside your comfort zone and "Alpha" her up a little.

She offered, you refused. Maybe she was trying to make you jump through hoops. Maybe she was sh!t testing you. But you were the one who backed away from the offer.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

7737 said:


> Before people say 'Divorce'....its not that easy...my career is 'here' we are from 'there'....if I leave my wife will go back taking the children with her. 'There' is 5,000 miles away. I would get to see my children maybe 2-3 times a year....they are all I have left...If I divorce, I will be left with nothing. Thats why I stay. I don't really have a choice.
> 
> Thanks for listening. Whinge over!


I don't know where 'here' and 'there' are, but your wife cannot move away with our children without your consent. Talk to an attorney so that at least you know your rights. You are making decisions based on assumptions that are most likely very wrong.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

7737 said:


> I'm sure the more regular visitors to TAM of you will have read some of my posts and so know that I am in a sexless marriage.
> 
> I've aired some of my 'frustrations' on here in the past. I have been told that I should 'man up', be more intouch with my wifes needs, help more round the house, give her all the unconditional massages etc and expect nothing in return or maybe she just isnt interested in sex with ME....if thats the case why isnt she having sex with somone else or her finger then?
> I do all of that, and more.


I agree with the "Man up" part. However manning up is not doing more of what she wants/needs IMHO. It sounds like you do that already. It sounds like your the guy she has firmly in the "friend zone". The guy who buys her free drinks and then she leaves with her friends. I'm sure you remember "that girl" from dating. That's unacceptable behavior from a wife. Your situation and mine sound similar. While I do have more frequent relations with my wife than you do, she's just as unresponsive and unavailable when I'm not forcing the issue. Here is how my evening went yesterday.

Yesterday evening was "date night". She set up a date night for us. That was the first time that's happened in a long time. Kudos to her for dating me. I can't remember the last time she did that. We had sex this weekend and I gave her a two day pass until yesterday. Sex was her option basically. She said to me "only if I don't want to right?". I said yes, its her option. I kept my word, no pressure and was still intimate in other ways, making it very clear that it was not pressure to have sex. Monday and Tuesday go by with her for the most part pushing me away. By pushing me away I mean I try to give her one real decent kiss, she pecks and runs off. Wednesday rolls around and we have a great "date". We go home and its good night roomie. I didn't expect her to come home and go porn star on me. Simply being available and agreeable to a nightcap would have been perfectly acceptable to me. 

Through most of the evening and the last couple days, I listened to her complain about a coworker. This week for her is one of the busiest of the year and most important. It's part of the reason I gave the sex pass but continued nightly massages, kisses, hugs, sensitive husband stuff, etc. I sent her a flirty text yesterday afternoon. Her response was a sarcastic shoot down. I alpha'd up and got her to respond eventually the way she should have. On the way to dinner, she informed me it was probably going to be too late to have sex. Guess what happened? We got home about the same time we would go to bed, but there was time/energy left for sex IF it was important to her. It clearly wasn't as she found anything else to occupy her wind-down time and did a typical "I'm sleeping" routine. 

At dinner, she whined and complained incessantly about this coworker who is downright lazy and unreliable. This lady does the absolute bare minimum that she can get by with and is always finding ways to skip out on work. She complained that she and the rest of her team had to pick up the slack while this other lady hid in her office with the door locked and was an hour late to assume her duties. No one is supposed to call in sick this week. What does this lady do yesterday, call in sick for yesterday and today. What do I hear from my wife? You guessed it. How worthless she is, lazy, shirks her duties and could care less about the other people her laziness hurts or how it affects them. Her work performance is sub par when she is there. This lady is "so sorry" with a wink and nod that she's not there. Yeah right my wife says. My wife was "so sorry" with a smile on her face too. Yeah right I say.

I had an epiphany as she snored away and I was pissed off from the sham of a date. Her needs were met, mine were not. I appreciated the effort of a date, but we're not just friends. As far as I'm concerned, she pulled a "betty" on me. She is still a lazy and unreliable partner. The attitude I have a problem with has not changed. She's still doing the bare minimum that she can get away with, nothing more. She failed a pretty easy fitness test as far as I'm concerned. Applying the 2nd date rule, there would not have been a third. Her behavior was inexcusable and unacceptable. She had three nights where there was opportunity to woman up and she failed to. This is not my problem, this is hers. It's my problem if I don't man up and call her on it.

One of her things she want's me to do is to tell her goodbye before I leave for work. You know what I didn't to this morning? You guessed it. I got "bettied" last night. I was not going to bend over and give her what she needs/wants. I deserve better. I'm not reinforcing bad behavior. The free drinks are cut off. 

This evening I am not going home, I'm going straight to the gym. That's what I want to do. I will not be calling her to be concerned how her day was. That's what she wants/needs. Honestly, I don't care. When I'm done doing what I want to do, I'll come home. When I get home, I will make it clear to her what I think and say what I've said here. Her behavior is unacceptable. I'm married to "betty" instead of my wife. Depending on how much resistance I get (insert me being the insensitive jerk here), I will suggest to her that if she is disgusted by her husband flirting with her and putting me in the roomate zone, I will simply flirt with someone who appreciate it and will respond correctly and/or find someone to date who will have no problems putting out.

Would I really cheat on her, probably not. It's not how I'm wired. She's told me "If I ever cheat on you, it will be (insert reason here)." I see nothing wrong with telling her if I ever cheat on her, it will be because I'm married to "betty". I'm done being bent over the friend chair without a reach around. I'm not a sex feind or an insensitive jerk, even if my vent makes me sound that way. I'm just a man with unmet needs, married to an insensitive and unreliable wife who will find the will to change or be put in the ex zone. I deserve better. Venting done.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

She was open and playful. It's on you to close the deal.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Blue Moon said:


> She was open and playful. It's on you to close the deal.


I disagree and yet agree. At one point, my wife was only open and playful when there was absolutely no chance of closing the deal. The minute that could occur, she shut down and found reasons not to. I believe it was her way of dealing with the guilt of not being interested by convincing herself that she was interested but the timing was not right. We have improved our relationship (including me working on myself) where this is not a problem any more.

So, in the short term, it may not on him to close the deal because there may be nothing to close. But in the long term, it is on him to figure out how to extend that to when it can be closed.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Halien said:


> It can't be assumed that this dynamic simply 'exists', where intimacy is taken as a given in the relationship. In fact, it can only be assumed that it will not exist until one or more of the two bring this dynamic into every single sexual experience. If you approach sex like a negotiation, SOMEONE will start bundling resentment into to it. Instead, if you approach it like a basic human need, with full confidence in your ability to meet her needs, then the regular refusal is a very clear statement of how she views the marriage.


Agree with this 100%. In fact, the OP needs to figure out whether this last part is the issue, and soon. He might not like the answer to the question, but at least he will know.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I disagree and yet agree. At one point, my wife was only open and playful when there was absolutely no chance of closing the deal. The minute that could occur, she shut down and found reasons not to. I believe it was her way of dealing with the guilt of not being interested by convincing herself that she was interested but the timing was not right. We have improved our relationship (including me working on myself) where this is not a problem any more.
> 
> So, in the short term, it may not on him to close the deal because there may be nothing to close. But in the long term, it is on him to figure out how to extend that to when it can be closed.


It's the I'm available but unavailable reverse play. There's a difference in wanting to appear to be available to please your partner to set up the "catch-22" sneak play and wanting to but needing a little bit of encouragement to close the deal. 

It's the difference between going in to buy a car with financing in hand verses stopping by the lot while your vehicle is getting serviced. You "appear" interested to the sales guy. He talks to you about the car and thinks based on what you say that he has a chance. You're lying to him to keep him happy and to have the possibility of getting a free test drive to occupy your time. In one respect you would take the car home if someone else was paying for it but buying a new car is not really what you want. In reality, you have no interest in buying today. Same play, different bed.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> I agree with the "Man up" part. However manning up is not doing more of what she wants/needs IMHO. It sounds like you do that already. It sounds like your the guy she has firmly in the "friend zone". The guy who buys her free drinks and then she leaves with her friends. I'm sure you remember "that girl" from dating. That's unacceptable behavior from a wife. Your situation and mine sound similar. While I do have more frequent relations with my wife than you do, she's just as unresponsive and unavailable when I'm not forcing the issue. Here is how my evening went yesterday.
> 
> Yesterday evening was "date night". She set up a date night for us. That was the first time that's happened in a long time. Kudos to her for dating me. I can't remember the last time she did that. We had sex this weekend and I gave her a two day pass until yesterday. Sex was her option basically. She said to me "only if I don't want to right?". I said yes, its her option. I kept my word, no pressure and was still intimate in other ways, making it very clear that it was not pressure to have sex. Monday and Tuesday go by with her for the most part pushing me away. By pushing me away I mean I try to give her one real decent kiss, she pecks and runs off. Wednesday rolls around and we have a great "date". We go home and its good night roomie. I didn't expect her to come home and go porn star on me. Simply being available and agreeable to a nightcap would have been perfectly acceptable to me.
> 
> ...


Your analogy about Betty is spot on. I think this is an excellent strategy to make your wife see how she is ignoring your needs.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Mistys dad said:


> Or maybe she was testing you.
> 
> To see if you were willing to make your sex life together a priority.
> 
> ...


All are possibilities. Also a possibility is she was yanking his chain. She wants the validation of being wanted without having to follow through.

One way of looking at this is that the reason does not matter. Part of being alpha is being confident and forthright with his expectations of her and of himself. He might take this time to tell his wife he will make himself available but she must both commit to adequate sex and follow through. An attitude of "I wanted to but you were not around" is unacceptable.

Owning a small business is a different animal than having a corporate job. There are many day to day business functions that only the OP can do. Also, he has the responsibility to keep business coming in the door. Due to the nature of his livelihood, his wife may have to work harder than others to be available on his schedule.

The OP simply cannot knock off for a couple of hours whenever he feels like it. Being a business owner means he has to plan and schedule all these things out. Given she benefits from his work, it's reasonable to expect her cooperation.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

7737 said:


> Nsweet - 'offer to get her something to show I care'...??? Yeah right! How about HER doing something for ME occasionally to show that SHE cares?
> Why continue depositing money into your account if you dont get any interest in return?


See, there's that selfish attitude again that's making this worse. You want her to start giving you more attention but every action you make screams "I want you reward me for this" and you miss out on the joy of giving to make you feel good. When you stop caring about getting what she owes you, then you can enjoy her again without all of this negative resentment and need to have sex because it makes you feel good. When was the last time you cuddled with your wife or gave her a massage without asking for sex soon afterwards? The more you want something the less likely you are to get it. More so with sex from the person who knows you best and can read your intentions.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

All good points.

The counter to that is when there is a lack of sex, followed by an offer of "Here and Now".

OP seems to think she was bluffing. If so, then her bluff needs to be called out immediately. "I'll be there in five minutes" will get one of two responses.

"OK, I'll be waiting."

Or

"You know what, I was just kidding."

But to call the bluff, he better be ready to move mountains to get there.

Sometimes the Bull Moose theory is required. She is ready. I am going, if I have to bust down walls and have a single track mind. The only answer to a ****-tease is right here, right now, or quit wasting my time.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

7737 - I've been following your story with great interest.

I too have been in your shoes! As others here know some of my stories, I've actually had my wife say to me "You're getting some great sex tonight because we've had such a great day" or for some other reasons (Sex during the day is not really an option around our house because on most nights the kids are up past when I/we are!)

A couple of answers really caught my eye though. Ones like these:

Halien - "Why doesn't she have any burden to figure him out?"
I loved this one and agree wholeheartedly. I've done my part to understand her, meet her "emotional" needs, I've manned up and I've manned down. Been the Alpha and the Beta. All the things I've done to try and please her, not nail her! They don't work for more than a few weeks at a time.

NSweet - "If she wants to curl up on the couch then offer to get her something to show you care then give her the space she needs while you do your own thing. What, you going to fein interest in a movie that's half way through in hopes that she will validate your action? I bet there were dishes just begging to be washed and three or four things on her "honey do" list you haven't done. Just don't make it appearant that you're doing them to please her"

Sorry but I'm call Bullsh*t on this one. As someone else said, shouldn't she try pleaseing me a bit sometimes? She wants me to paint the house because it's on her "honey do" list yet she isn't doing what she needs to do? Hell no!

Enchantment - "She RESPONDS to YOU. If you give her nothing to respond to, then you won't get much"

While I guess I can't really critcize this too much, I guess providing his wife with a nice home, clothes, luxuries etc ISN'T giving? Why the hell doesn't she respond to that? I don't mean to be a complete ass here but c'mon!


"But give her something to respond to - give her something to excite her - give her a man who has himself together - who is confident, self-assured, inspiring - someone who is a leader - and see what kind of response you can get" 

Really enchantment? He's given her a man who ALREADY has himself together. He has his own company for cryin' out loud! 

Browncoat - "I'm in the same situation, I get it. I get rejected... a LOT and it hurts, a LOT (not every time, but more often than not). There's also the cumulative hurt that comes from repeated rejection. I get it. It completely sucks"

I'm with you Brown! The rejection on top of rejection adds up over the course of a marriage. If someone tells you to stand in a corner and tells you they're going to give you something good, then hits you in the head with a rock when you do come to the sense that maybe, to protect yourself from any further pain, you shouldn't stand in that corner?

Enchantment - "the ROOT of manning up, the essence of it is to make yourself grow into a man of conviction, character, confidence ... not to manipulate"

Again, how is this guy NOT a man of conviction, character, confidence? You say it is "not to manipulate". One could also make the agrument that he is being "manipulated" to change. He's being manipulated to change so his wife will give him sex! Never mind the fact that as most will agree, sex is part of the marriage contract! Somewhere along the way, the wife yelled "RENEOGOTIATE!" like she's a star athlete at the end of a successful season!

Phantomfan - "I agree with the "Man up" part. However manning up is not doing more of what she wants/needs IMHO. It sounds like you do that already"

I agree 100% with this. What the hell else does she want!

Sorry! A bit long winded today!


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Toffer:

I completely understand your frustration with the advice that you quoted. What I think Enchantment meant by being a strong, confident man, was to be strong and confident in the bedroom. Even though the OP is successful in his work life, he is letting his wife control the situation in his love life. I think he believes that he doesn't want to press his wife when she is reluctant, but he needs to get her aroused because some women are not receptive to sex initially.

I know much of this can be misunderstood. It doesn't seem fair to expect this guy to do more work when he is being a great husband. But he should not let his wife think that she can ignore his needs. He has to keep pressing forward, confidently taking what is his in the marriage like he does in the work world.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Nsweet said:


> See, there's that selfish attitude again that's making this worse. You want her to start giving you more attention but every action you make screams "I want you reward me for this" and you miss out on the joy of giving to make you feel good. When you stop caring about getting what she owes you, then you can enjoy her again without all of this negative resentment and need to have sex because it makes you feel good. When was the last time you cuddled with your wife or gave her a massage without asking for sex soon afterwards? The more you want something the less likely you are to get it. More so with sex from the person who knows you best and can read your intentions.


Its just as selfish for a spouse to deny their mate what they need when you know what they need. To know and leave them hanging in the wind is just plain cruel and heartless. What about holding them accountable?


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Toffer said:


> 7737
> 
> Phantomfan - "I agree with the "Man up" part. However manning up is not doing more of what she wants/needs IMHO. It sounds like you do that already"
> 
> ...


Good stuff. I can summarize it. Women want their cake and eat it too. Women want the beta squishy sensitive man and it repulses them to be with us when we bow to that false reality. They (being society and women themselves) train us to be a prized pet, a man in name only, then scold us for being what they asked us to be. We start getting all "manly" and angry about it, they get mad at us. Honestly, we should know better than to do what they say. 

It seems so incredibly un-intuitive. Alpha males are bad yet alpha traits hook a woman like a fishing lure with a juicy worm. Me being nice did not land my wife. Being ****y and arrogant did. What's the first thing they do? Change us into a pillowpet!

A balanced male is hard to be this day and age. Alpha traits are @**hole traits. We get hooked to the drug ****tail going on when we are with our special someone and we turn into a crackhead beta trying to get more of it. It's a curse I tell ya!

I wish I were 100 percent back to being who I was BM. I'm sure trying like hell to get there. I'm just fed up with doing the right things according to the re-negotiated rules and getting chumped. It's bull$h!t and I'm calling it for what it is. If you have a good man, then for god sakes, treat them like a king and vice versa. It should never be much more complicated than that. 

I love the sports analogy with a new contract. How many times did your favorite athlete go out there, bust his @ss on his contract year, renegotiate and turn soft? Just about all of em. We can't call out our partner for this why? Because we need to bend over more and be thankful they give us what they feel like? I don't think so.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

lovesherman,
I guess I am constantly frustrated by the inequities I see here. Not be be a sexist but how many times have we been told that holding woment to a certain "role" or "stereotype" as a wife is wrong? Aren't we trying to do the same to the OP (and other menn) here?

I actually identify with almost everything I have read from Enchantment in the past. Been there, done it, tried it and have the bruises to my ego to prove it!

Again, as a disclaimer, my wife is great in every other aspect but this one. That's probably why we are still married after 26 years! I think that if other areas were lagging, I would have left years ago!

I am just pi*sed at all the effort (above and beyond being a good husband, provider, friend, helping with chores etc.) it seems to take to get my wife to WANT to be intimate with me! It's not that she won't (we average maybe 1x/week) but as others have said, after a while it seems like pity sex or a chore. 

For God's sake ladies, throw your man a bone (no pun intended) every now and then and show HIM that you Want, Desire and Lust for him! It's a tremendous ego boost and I think if you do it once every month or two, he will again become the confident, inspired, self-assured leader that you all seem to want.

Continue to reject his advances and you may find yourselves tempted by the first guy who comes along who acts completely Alpha (only becasue you haven't broken him yet!)

Truly I am on the downward spiral of the roller coaster ride right now.

I plan on having the talk (AGAIN) this weekend to try and get my wife to realize that less than once a week is not enough for me. Sure, I know i have to find out all about what she wants in the frequency department and all that but if the answer isn't close to mine and not one I can comprise on (BTW, isn't comprising being a BETA?) what will my next steps be? Beats the hell out of me!


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Phantomfan, thanks for the comments!

Wondering if I can change my moniker to "Pillowpet"? 

Also, I trust that BM means Before Marraige and not Bowel Movement!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

phantomfan said:


> Good stuff. I can summarize it. Women want their cake and eat it too. Women want the beta squishy sensitive man and it repulses them to be with us when we bow to that false reality. They (being society and women themselves) train us to be a prized pet, a man in name only, then scold us for being what they asked us to be. We start getting all "manly" and angry about it, they get mad at us. Honestly, we should know better than to do what they say.
> 
> It seems so incredibly un-intuitive. Alpha males are bad yet alpha traits hook a woman like a fishing lure with a juicy worm. Me being nice did not land my wife. Being ****y and arrogant did. What's the first thing they do? *Change us into a pillowpet*!
> 
> ...


No one can change you into a pillowpet unless you allow it. At least own your part in that transformation. 

And don't give up - things take time to establish new patterns of behaviour. Your wife may not transform over-night if you have established years of this entrenched behaviour.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Toffer said:


> lovesherman,
> I guess I am constantly frustrated by the inequities I see here. Not be be a sexist but how many times have we been told that holding woment to a certain "role" or "stereotype" as a wife is wrong? Aren't we trying to do the same to the OP (and other menn) here?
> 
> I actually identify with almost everything I have read from Enchantment in the past. Been there, done it, tried it and have the bruises to my ego to prove it!
> ...


When she rejects you, have you tried continuing to pursue playfully? Teasing her, just assuming that she will get interested? Some women only respond to insistent desire from their man. I do get your frustration, however. I probably shouldn't be giving suggestions because I do not truly understand the mindset of the LD wife.


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Phantomfan, thanks for the comments!
> 
> Wondering if I can change my moniker to "Pillowpet"?
> 
> Also, I trust that BM means Before Marraige and not Bowel Movement!


Yes sir I meant before marriage. You can have pillowpet ;-). I'm gonna change mine to chuck norris. He wouldn't put up with it and neither am I :rofl:


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> When she rejects you, have you tried continuing to pursue playfully? Teasing her, just assuming that she will get interested? Some women only respond to insistent desire from their man. I do get your frustration, however. I probably shouldn't be giving suggestions because I do not truly understand the mindset of the LD wife.



I don't either LHM. I know women like to play hard to get. It's a game I don't mind playing. But, the game a lot of women play is lucy with the football. You get to the ball to kick it and whoosh, its gone. That's not hard to get, that's being a ball tease. 

@ Toffer, we absolutely DO want to be thrown a bone. Insert hound dog barking noises here. :smthumbup:


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Toffer said:


> lovesherman,
> I guess I am constantly frustrated by the inequities I see here. Not be be a sexist but how many times have we been told that holding woment to a certain "role" or "stereotype" as a wife is wrong? Aren't we trying to do the same to the OP (and other menn) here?
> 
> I actually identify with almost everything I have read from Enchantment in the past. Been there, done it, tried it and have the bruises to my ego to prove it!
> ...


You've got 26 years of patterned behaviour in your wife - allowing her to blow off what is important to you. She likely hasn't ever been challenged to have to change and been held accountable to it - and you said somewhere, I think, that she is a conflict avoider - a runner. She runs away from conflict and runs away from intimacy, so she may have learned that behaviour at a very young age (pre-Toffer) that she now needs to UN-learn.

If you broach the subject again, you should make it so that it's about the whole of the marriage, not just the sexual aspect - focus on how do you get your marriage overall to be better and to be closer? Otherwise, she will just run again if she feels backed into the proverbial corner. It's like trying to lure in a wild animal. 

And, as much as men would like to believe that because they bring home bacon or provide niceties, that isn't often what creates sexual desire in some women. If you've been a titan in the business world, but you aren't in the homefront, then she may not respond by, as Athol K says "getting her panties wet." Go read his blog about swallowing the red pill.

And, at some point like all others who have been in the same position before you - you have to evaluate whether it is worth it to you as to stay and keeping trying or to go. Nothing is guaranteed that a wife will ever respond, even if you make all the changes that are possible. She has to choose to change. Hopefully, if given the right motivation, she will.

Best wishes.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Toffer,

You need a base reset of your thinking. 

Sex is not something that is bestowed upon a man, by a woman.

It is a gift that is shared by both partners. 

Don't approach it as "looking" for something from your wife. View it as you bringing your half of the best thing ever. A little arrogance goes a long way.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> You've got 26 years of patterned behaviour in your wife - allowing her to blow off what is important to you. She likely hasn't ever been challenged to have to change and been held accountable to it - and you said somewhere, I think, that she is a conflict avoider - a runner. She runs away from conflict and runs away from intimacy, so she may have learned that behaviour at a very young age (pre-Toffer) that she now needs to UN-learn.
> 
> If you broach the subject again, you should make it so that it's about the whole of the marriage, not just the sexual aspect - focus on how do you get your marriage overall to be better and to be closer? Otherwise, she will just run again if she feels backed into the proverbial corner. It's like trying to lure in a wild animal.
> 
> ...


I would add an additional question of asking are your actions consistent with this talk? When you initiate, and she turns you down, are you following through by withdrawing some of the things you do for her?


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

I know I am responsible....To A Degree!

I believed her when she was too tired after a day at home with the kids
I believed her when she said that our sex life would get better when the kids were older
I believed her when she said she was too tired 

Like a kid who has aged a bit, I no longer believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. If I can't believe what my wife tells me, why go on?


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Misty's dad, aren't gifts bestowed in general? Can't someone say "hey, I got this for you" and can't you respond "oh thanks but you shouldn't have and I can't accept this?"

While you may not believe it, I have tried your approach. It worked...for about 6 weeks. Again, got the T-shirt to prove it.

Tall, yes, as I noted in another thread, I have withdrawn some of the things I do for her and she noticed and sent me an email at work asking me what was up and that I seemed distant. Told her we'd be talking at length about the issues that had me disconnected over the weekend that's coming up. 

Regardless, it seems that she still doesn't have a clue what the topic will be! Oh Well!

Enchantment, I know bringing home the bacon or being a CEO gurantees nothing, but I think many of us also try to be the Titan at home you mention. I do ALL the outside stuff, help with dishes, laundry, I'm the one who does most of the bathroom scrubbing and cleaning (she usually does the floors) and I paint and fix stuff all the time. Not sure how much more I can do working 13 to 14 hour days and still attending kids events! Even God got to rest on the 7th day!


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Toffer said:


> I know I am responsible....To A Degree!
> 
> I believed her when she was too tired after a day at home with the kids
> I believed her when she said that our sex life would get better when the kids were older
> ...


But that is exactly the wrong thing to do. I know that you think you are being considerate, but you have to push her to see that she is destroying your marriage. She may feel tired, but you will give her a reason to wake up!


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Lovesherman,

I know. That's where I am now and have been for a few weeks!

Every now and then it seems like it is dawning on her and she talks to me about it and I think "Holy Sh!t! She really gets it!" Then after a few weeks it's back to the same ole same ole! FRUSTRATING!

She knows. It just seems like after a while she thinks since she sexed me up a bit, I should be OK until I start to rumble again and she has so much else she needs to do!

NEWSFLASH! I am one of the things she needs to do!


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## phantomfan (Mar 7, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Lovesherman,
> 
> I know. That's where I am now and have been for a few weeks!
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

It's downright disrespectful and unacceptable. I'm burning my bra and going streaking. Whose with me?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Toffer said:


> Misty's dad, aren't gifts bestowed in general? Can't someone say "hey, I got this for you" and can't you respond "oh thanks but you shouldn't have and I can't accept this?"
> 
> While you may not believe it, I have tried your approach. It worked...for about 6 weeks. Again, got the T-shirt to prove it.
> 
> ...


What is her love language? I understand you are working hard on this, but are you working smart? Because if what she needs it quality time with you, doing all this stuff won't get you where you want to be. In your discussion this weekend, pull out the His Needs Her Needs sheets and work on them. figure out if what you are doing is actually what she needs to feel connected. This does not replace the discussion on your needs not being met, but rather is a compliment to make sure you are doing it the right way.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

I really didnt mean to stir up such a hornets nest! 

Before I moved here and started my own company I used to work for a Government agency...where I could, mid afternoon, feign feeling unwell and go home for an afternoon of passion. 
When its your own business its alot more diffiicult.

There are pro's and con's to running your own business...you can, committments allowing, have extended 'lunch breaks'...take the afternoon off (planned) to attend a school play etc....the down sides are that the buck stops with you. Sometimes you have to work till 9.00pm... I provide a far better standard of living for my wife and family now than I did when I worked 'for' someone else.

My wife has the nice clothes, good car, weekly pedicures/manicures, holidays in Europe (she goes every July August for 2 months with the children, I join them for 2 weeks - all I can be away from work for)...etc. I also do all the cooking at home (I enjoy it)...I also maintain the house (call plumbers, get the generator serviced etc).
I buy her flowers every week (I like them in the house too). I also think its important that she has 'her' time... I sent her off to a spa at the coast (Indian ocean) for 3 days of relaxing and pampering in January... maybe instead of doing that sort of thing I should say 'B!tch! We have no firewood. Get chopping now or no dinner'...man enough?!!!!
Before anyone jumps down my throat - JOKE! I have more respect for my wife/people than that!

When I get home, I am the one that needs some space, some TLC etc. 

Traditionally, it is the mans role to approach the woman for sex. If a lioness constantly rejects the advances of the lion, eventually he gives up and walks away...

Guys - how many of you get a hard on in bed when your naked wife snuggles up to you? Yup - most.
My wife does that to me, I get hard she moves away 'all I want is a cuddle. You just want sex'.

So now, I don't instigate....I want HER to....but in an absolutely clear way....she snuggles up to me and starts massaging my balls etc. Yeah - I would love to be able to push her away saying 'all you ever want is sex'!! But when you are starving you'll eat anything!

A marriage is a union...a team. If my wife is feeling really horny and I'm not (never happened!!) I should respond to HER needs.... If she wants to go out to see the latest movie and I don't, then I have to think about what SHE wants and do it FOR HER. 
I might have a far higher sex drive than she has, but she ought to atleast make the effort. 

The incident the other afternoon was typical... She offered me sex at a time that she knew I couldn't take her up on....she then said that she would text me later in the afternoon when she was home... I told her 'I'd be there'...yet she 'forgot'. It was an ideal, and rare, opportunity for us. She preferred to watch TV. 

If we had a 'normal' sex life and chased each other then I probably would have jumped her when I got home...but we havent. She ignores my needs. 
If she 'promises' me sex, I expect her to follow through with it...just as if I promise to take her out to her favorite restaurant 'tonight' I do it. 

Being told that I am 'wussy' or that I should show HER that I care etc....well, bollocks.

Takes two. I am doing way more than my fair 'share'. She needs to 'woman up'. Our counselor (when she was still going) told her the same thing....a marriage without sex is no marriage and sooner or later I will walk away. 
Thats when my wife quit seeing the counselor, because I think she struck too close to home....far more comfortable to be an ostrich, bury your head in the sand and hope it all goes away.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Delup - my counselor has more or less told me to do the same... Do MY things, lead my own life, move forwards, start a new journey....she will notice...and she has a choice; she either joins me and we 'evolve' together or she gets left behind.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Sometimes after the thread continues for awhile, more clues pop up.
OP, I read that you do feel your wife is playing you. 

However, I notice things like you are providing tons of services, and I'm not certain that is her love language, if she is complaining that she wants to snuggle and it leaves you wanting sex. 

At this point in time... I don't think you can expect a complete turnaround by ONE act of cuddling, one date, etc. It will take time to see a change, in both of you.

My advice? You are BOTH playing each other. Someone has to make the first move, vow to be good and decent to each other, and be the leader in that behavior. 

You cannot expect her to give you sex because you do service acts for her, if you are now stooping to the same behavior and denying her affection or planning to "ignore" her. Dont' fall into that spiral. 

The advice to do your own thing is so often misunderstood. It's not about payback. It's not about revenge. It's about being happy, yourself. It's about shaking off the miserable attitude, and learning that the ONLY thing you control is yourself. Your wife is NOT responsible for your personal happiness. Your goal should be to make HER happy, and HERS to make you happy, by doing things to show you care about each other. 

I'm betting your love language is sex.
I'm betting hers is non-sexual affection. 

Have you done the Emotional Needs Quiz? Do you know what your wife really needs to feel loved? Would it hurt to try?


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

7737 said:


> Being told that I am 'wussy' or that I should show HER that I care etc....well, bollocks.


As we say in the Great State of Texas, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

You don't get it and your sex life proves it. I am baffled why you would prefer resentment to sex, but I guess everyone has their kink.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

7737 said:


> I really didnt mean to stir up such a hornets nest!
> 
> Before I moved here and started my own company I used to work for a Government agency...where I could, mid afternoon, feign feeling unwell and go home for an afternoon of passion.
> When its your own business its alot more diffiicult.
> ...


Hi 7737 ~

Thanks for this - it gives more clarity into your situation. I hope you don't think that it's suggested to man up because it means you're a wuss. That isn't what it means - but it might mean you are being taken advantage of and allowing that to happen.

You do a lot of nice things for your wife, and it sounds like she takes you for granted - because you let her take you for granted.

Not to throw another suggestion at you...but MEM's thermostat/barometer thread is really good. You might go out and read through it. It sounds like you should be trying to pull back (and you can pull back nicely without being a douche about things - you can pull back with confidence and conviction):

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

I wish I could wave a magic wand and have a coconut fall out of the sky to wake up your wife. In lieu of that, you'll have to be the one interjecting the discomfort to try and get her to wake up before it's too late to balance things out in your marriage.

Best wishes.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I grew up in a rich town (though we were poor, my dad happened to be dating a rich widow). So while I got my clothes from the Goodwill from elementary school until high school, my friends growing up got theirs from Neiman Marcus or <insert expensive store here>.

One thing I learned from that: wealth brings many things... happiness isn't one. There were many wealthy families that were happy, but far more that weren't remotely happy. Not saying that it translates to your family, aside from saying that don't mistake the things you can afford for your family as creating any sense of real happiness (short term elation now and then isn't happiness).

One simple question I'd ask your wife is this: does she feel like she's getting to spend enough quality time with you? Does she feel that you spend enough quality time with the kids. The key word is quality, since I know how hard it can be to come home and transition from work to home life and just let the stresses of the day roll off your back. Is there a real sense of warmth and love at home and does your wife feel like it's radiating from you as well as from others?


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Quality time.....Ummm...the question is trying to strike the right balance.
As things are now, I work Monday to Friday 0830-1800/1830. There may be the occasional Saturday (maybe one a month) where I have to work on a Saturday morning. 
I dont think my working hours are really any longer than most people working in the private sector.

As I mentioned before...with it being my own company and I am the boss, I can (given warning!) take the afternoon off or a couple of hours to go to a school play...meet up with my wife to look at new curtains, have sex (!) etc.

For me, home is my haven. Living and working in Africa is stressful...petty bureaucracy, corruption etc etc. I don't want to get home to be told..'we've run out of gas (bottled)', or there is a leak under the kitchen sink, or the washing machine is broken etc etc. I dont want to know. My wife is more than capable of getting the gardener (house staff etc is the norm here) to but the empty gas bottle in the car and going to buy a refill, or calling an electrician in to repair the washing machine etc.

She doesn't, because she is lazy...and she knows that I will sort it because if I don't my clothes wont get washed, there will be no dinner (no gas) etc.
What I should do is nothing...and take my clothes elsewhere to be washed etc.

But why should the children (10 and 12) suffer because their mother couldn't be bothered?

We all have responsibilities in life...be it the breadwinner, housekeeper, mother, father, husband, wife....

I could cut my work hours and stress by half, but then we'd only have half the income. The 2 moinths in Europe each year would have to go, the manicures/pedicures, club membership etc.

The trick is getting the balance right. 
I work 45-50 hours a week...just like most people. 

Is the time we spend together 'quality'...to be honest, not really. We have very little in common. She would rather sit and watch TV (soaps etc) than say watch an cooking program and get ideas, or a 'Home Makeover' program and get ideas.

She has plenty of opportunities here...but sitting infront of the TV watching [email protected] is easier than getting the washing machine fixed, having an hour of passion with her husband...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

deejov said:


> Sometimes after the thread continues for awhile, more clues pop up.
> OP, I read that you do feel your wife is playing you.
> 
> However, I notice things like you are providing tons of services, and I'm not certain that is her love language, if she is complaining that she wants to snuggle and it leaves you wanting sex.
> ...


There are a couple of really great things in here that bear repeating:

1. Figure out her love language. My wife is a SAHM. I am successful enough in my career that I too am able to get her nice gifts, pay for vacations, even put a substantial addition of our house. She likes those things, but they don't rev up her motor. On the other hand, me getting out tools and spending a Saturday hanging a chalkboard for the kids and fixing a couple of doors and suddenly I am like catnip. For her, the gifts don't matter but the acts of service are huge. I kick myself for not seeing it sooner.

2. If she needs non-sexual affection, give it to her. Cuddle with her on the couch and don't make a move. If you get hard and she pulls away, pull back in, tell her you will quick getting hard around her the day you die, then go back to what you were doing (talking, watching tv, whatever). Make it clear that you can have that touch with no sex on the menu. 

Many women feel much more sexual responsive once they feel the pressure is off. Without having to worry about whether you will want to rachet it up, they can relax and enjoy just the contact, which makes them feel good about the relationship, which makes them feel good about you, which makes them think about how wonderful you are. From there, the idea of sex is not such a big jump, because they are in control and not feeling forced. 

3. Be a fun person to be around! Manning up, pulling back, etc., all requires that you get yourself happy. Your wife was attracted to you in the beginning, very likely because to her, you were fun to be around. Get a bit of that guy back into your life. 

Last point which was not raised but bears repeating - not a single one of these things is fool-proof. I have tried a lot of things from here and other sources that did not work. But some did, and I built on those. The three I noted above worked very well for me. I do think my first point is a must - you need to speak her language, but even that does not always work, particularly if there are other issues involved. It will take and patience and at times will feel like three steps forward and two steps back, especially since this will upset the current balance in your relationship.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Toffer said:


> Misty's dad, aren't gifts bestowed in general? Can't someone say "hey, I got this for you" and can't you respond "oh thanks but you shouldn't have and I can't accept this?"


I think what Misty's Dad is trying to say is that you should not treat sex is a gift. A gift by definition is "something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned".

Your approach extend from an understanding that you have earned the sex you want but your wife needs help following through. You have forsaken and continue to forsake all others and cheerfully go above and beyond for her. She has a good deal, whether she would admit it or not.

To look at differently, your wife is taking you for granted. Regardless of what she might like to think, she would be hard-pressed to get that anywhere else. My gut says that if you tried to make an issue of what you do for her she would say "I've earned it" or "I'm entitled to it". So, why are you any less deserving?


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Perhaps she's depressed and feeling isolated. Does she have any friends that she can spend time with?


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Brown...she has 'friends'...they rarely invite her out to join them for a coffee or something because she never reciprocates...because its too much 'hassle'.
I will suggest we have a dinner party...she is against it (even though I will do 90% of the work) because it means she will have to make the 'effort' to be sociable...talk to people. 

I recall one dinner party where we were invited out....we were all sitting round the table discussing the state of the hotel/tourism industry here - both my wife and I 'came' from the hotel industry - so she could so easily have participated..but no, she quietly left the table to go and play Wii (?) with the children. 

She doesnt watch any news or read newspapers.... 'What was that Italian Captain thinking of?'''......'huh? What Captain? What capsized ship?'.....

You only get out of life what you put into it....

I really appreciate all the responses from you guys (and gals!)...

I will be away travelling (business) next week so doubt I'll be able to post....I'm not running away, just trying to keep the wolf from the door! But I will be back after Easter.

So Happy Easter y'all!!!!!!!


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Do you think she may be depressed? What you have described sounds like disconnection not just from you, but from all of life.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

She has been on a miniscule (and I mean really small) dose of some antidepressant for years.
She simply has no Oomph. She admits she is lazy. We have had all her hormone levels etc checked, all normal.

We are very fortunate with what we have...she could have a fantastic life...swimming, tennis, coffee mornings etc...all the sorts of things other 'expat' wives do. 
Its as if the lights are on but no one is in.

I've tried to get her to go back to counselling...."Why? There is nothing wrong with me...YOU are the one that needs to keep going"... So I keep going for ME...I enjoy it and find it helpful.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

7737 said:


> We are very fortunate with what we have...she could have a fantastic life...swimming, tennis, coffee mornings etc...all the sorts of things other 'expat' wives do.
> Its as if the lights are on but no one is in.


Is it possible she needs more? That a life of leisure with no real focus is not her goal or fullfilling? Some people need to be active and doing something they think is productive, whether it is paid work or for a charity.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Tall....she has a bit time job 10 hours a week (2 hours a day) in a school which she enjoys...

She has SO much going for her... either she simply has no umph or there is something missing....I've been looking for 'it' for nearly 20 years... buggered if I can find it!


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> Do you think she may be depressed? What you have described sounds like disconnection not just from you, but from all of life.


Yeah she really seems depressed to me.

I can relate, I work from home because my co-workers are at a minimum of 2000 miles away. I have "friends", but as far as I'm really concerned my only true friend is my wife (which I know is a lot to put on one person). I just don't have a real connection with anyone aside from her (I have in the past... it's just my current circumstances). It's been like this for me for years.

I don't really want to go out with others because they are basically fake friends and I'd rather just spend time with my family than spend time on a fake relationship. Don't get me wrong, I tell jokes, make others laugh... laugh myself. I appear to be having a fine time to others... but inwardly I feel shut out and distanced from those around me (again aside from my wife + kids).


I'd have a heart to heart with her and see how close she really feels to the "friends" in her life.


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## nameuser (Mar 30, 2012)

Hicks said:


> She's not going to want you sexually if you act like a wussy.
> You are acting like a wussy when you say text me and I'll come running. You have to take what you want. This will make your wife more sexual toward you.


This type of advice is such a cliché. Did you feel good acting like a tough guy?


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## nameuser (Mar 30, 2012)

Mistys dad said:


> Or maybe she was testing you.
> 
> *To see if you were willing to make your sex life together a priority.*
> 
> ...


She doesn't seem willing to make it a priority herself.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

Exactly. I'm prepared to work at it and help her in anyway I can....but she has got to;

1) realise and accept that she has 'issues
2) want to to change/put right those 'issues'
3) accept help
4) make the effort

Even if she accepts she has issues (which she doesn't) she has to want to put them right - and I'm tslking both sexual AND confidence issues.

I can only do so much...the rest has to come from her. Being an ostrich and running away from counselling isnt the way forwards!

If you bang your head against a brick wall, your head begins to hurt, so you stop banging!!!


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

7737 said:


> If you bang your head against a brick wall, your head begins to hurt, so you stop banging!!!


Cool - so what are you going to do? 

Doing nothing is not an option unless you are content to live in a sexless, lifeless marriage.

See, the problem here is that as you long as you think this is all her problem, nothing will change. You will eventually go out and have an affair or she will and the issues will come to a head. Until then, your life and your marriage suck.


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## tnhusband (Mar 28, 2012)

7737 said:


> She has SO much going for her... either she simply has no umph or there is something missing....I've been looking for 'it' for nearly 20 years... buggered if I can find it!


I think there comes a point in these sexless situations where you end up not being able to see the forest for the trees - as they say.

To me this quote (7737 above) , this way of thinking, this attitude - hits the nail on the head.

The key to High Libido versus Low Libido is THE LIBIDO.

Yours is higher than hers. So your challange is how to increase her Libido.

The problem is always figuring out what turns HER on. Not you.

It took me several years to figure out what aroused my wife and now our sex life is great - not perfect 365 days a year but our connection is so much stronger we can work through the the ups and downs.

If you're like most guys - you don't really want pity sex, obligation sex, chore/rewards sex. You want her to just be horny for you - like you are for her. Like she used to be.

You have to understand it's not her fault - she doesn't know why she's not in mood as much as she used to be. The fact that she has been more sexual in her past is great - it's in her somewhere - you have got to rekindle it. Also understand that as her Libido is low means she's not lacking or wanting more sex - so of course she's happy, she's fine. You have to increase her LIBIDO.

The thing (or maybe things) that increases her libido could be literally anything. I think its related to the Love Languages theory. It could be something simple like helping with the chores, you having six-pack abs etc - or something more out there - she wants to be really submissive to you or she wants you to wear her high heels or dress up in a diaper - it could be anything. ANYTHING!

But try to have fun finding it. Deep down maybe you already know something that seems to get her going but it's to scary for you or too much work. Then you have a decision to make.

And you have to stop whining about sex. Stop bringing it up - think about how that must turn-her OFF. It's not helping.

Good luck - but I swear this worked for me. Once I found what and how to push her buttons - it ignited her LIBIDO.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I hope your business break goes well. Take the time to shake off the negative.. your posts are riddled with examples set in your head of things she has "done" to you in the past. It doesn't sound like you even like her very much, to be honest. If she is that evil, and is teasing you and hurting you on purpose, what the heck are you doing there? 

good luck, I hope you are able to find some peace. And Happy Easter.


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## Jeff/BC (Apr 1, 2012)

7737 said:


> She's not stupid!


No, but she is, apparently, quite manipulative. I have no idea why your wife is getting such an outpouring of sympathy on this thread because honestly she's either not trying at all or trying and failing utterly... neither of which is really what I'd call A+ performance.

Were it me, I'd be telling her to come clean or it's over... no more fooling around... no more broken promises... no more stupid games. If I were you I wouldn't WANT to have sex with her any more. At this point I'd want to know whether she loved me, whether there was another man in the equation, and whether I loved her. Talk is what I'd be demanding in order to sort that all out. If I didn't get answers to my satisfaction then I'd know the answer. 

I don't deal with being coldly manipulated very well for very long.


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