# In a Rough Patch



## squid1035

I posted this in another thread, but thought I'd start this one so that I wouldn't take up someone else's thread.




We're in a rough patch now - kind of a continuation of one that began earlier this year. It subsided a bit, but just a few days ago came back. I think I misread what was happening before. 

We've be married for 13 years, together for 15. We have 3 kids now. Earlier this year I thought the breakdown was more over her emotional rut and sort of soul-searching phase, like what's her other purpose other than dutiful wife and mother. Which I wasn't at all resistant to her discovering herself. I encouraged her to try and figure it out and I would help in any way.

But her recent breakdown has been more revealing. She simply says she's tired and exhausted. To my guilt, I messed things up a bit for us financially. Not anywhere near bankruptcy, but one credit card debt can really wreak havoc on a family's already tight budget. And that's what I did. I stepped in s***t again. Even at the behest of my wife. It's totally my fault. 

So now she's at the point where she doesn't think she can muster the strength to not only hang around but fears that I might drag us though the dirt again. She feels that I took her for granted. And I have. Her deepest hurt comes from the thought of even though I couldn't fully reconcile the husband/father that I wanted to be with the person that I thought I really was, she didn't care. She loved me no matter what and was proud of me not matter what. And I just didn't fully appreciate that about her. Not in any way that she could appreciate, at least.

She says she hasn't written off our marriage yet. But she'd rather us be apart and still love each other, than risk staying married and end up resenting each other. Kind of a "I'll destroy this village in order to save it" gesture. 

There's never been talk of anybody else. And we've never dealt or experienced any type of infidelity. We've always had a pretty active physical relationship and we even enjoying working out together, even now. Just a little over a week ago we were giggling at silly shows together and she even told me how much she appreciates that efforts I've been making at really paying attention to her needs.

It's a weird place. I guess I never saw it coming, which makes it all seem so devastating. My instinct is to over-coddle. Which probably comes across as manipulation. She has expressed that sometimes she just wants to move on. I know that time and attention can help mend things. But how much time is too much in terms of not specifically trying to address and remedy a marital problem?

I need insight. I know I messed up and I've expressed that. I'll do what it takes to try and win her back. Maybe we have to kind of go through a re-courtship, albeit a very measured and slow one.

Thoughts?


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## squid1035

Another post regarding the same subject:




I'm beginning to understand this. It's hard to see a light at the end of the tunnel. My wife is seems very intent on not wanting things to work out. She seems like she's already made up her mind that I'm not what she wants. I've been reduced to a commodity that's either valuable or a liability.

I've never mistreated her. At least not deliberately. We've never had shouting matches. I've never cheated and neither has she, as far as I know. She feels taken for granted. And she's right. I often tried to act like the advice she was trying to give me didn't apply - like I had it under control. Of course, that's just stupid pride.

I know I'm not the best provider. But going back to school takes time and there's a lot of pressure on me. Now there's even more, trying to keep a sinking ship afloat.

This is a hard time. There really is zero love in her eyes for me at this time. We've never gone through anything like this before. I know I messed up. And now it feels like this family unit is really unraveling. The kids have no idea, I think.

As for being confident - I don't want to come off as glib or nonchalant. I know if I was hurt and my wife starting acting like it's just another rosy day, I'd take it as mocking. Honestly, I'm dying inside and it's hard not to show it. She has every right to be mad at me. I'm the one that wants to slither away.

This is going to be a really rough patch. The worst thing that's ever happened to me. I just don't know if I can fight if the end result is only going to be devastation. 

It's hard to keep faith.

Has anyone else experienced this?


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## Plan 9 from OS

My wife and I have been in some debt that living pretty tough on us. But we communicated to each other regularly about our thoughts and feelings when going through these times. On top of that we have a child with Aspergers and that adds even more difficulty to the situation. It sounds like there is a big breakdown in communication. Either she's not talking or you aren't listening. Look at your first post. You're guessing as to what's bothering her, or that's what it looks like to me.

Have you asked your wife directly? What does she respond with? If she gives you a "I don't know why...", then you need to tell her up front that reply is not good enough. We need to figure this out together. No secrets.

Hoping for the best for you, and any more info you can provide will be helpful. 



> We've be married for 13 years, together for 15. We have 3 kids now. Earlier this year *I thought the breakdown was more over her emotional rut and sort of soul-searching phase, *like what's her other purpose other than dutiful wife and mother. Which I wasn't at all resistant to her discovering herself. I encouraged her to try and figure it out and I would help in any way.
> 
> *But her recent breakdown has been more revealing. She simply says she's tired and exhausted.* To my guilt, I messed things up a bit for us financially. Not anywhere near bankruptcy, but one credit card debt can really wreak havoc on a family's already tight budget. And that's what I did. I stepped in s***t again. Even at the behest of my wife. It's totally my fault.


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## squid1035

Plan 9,

We've actually been communicating a lot lately. She's tired. Tired of the rut of keeping this busy family going, day to day. Tired of not being able to contribute financially, of not being able to find work. She's tired of always trying to give me the right advice and me, through my stubbornness and pride, not listening. She's done so much for me as wife, as a best friend. And I took it for granted. Simply put.

If you look at the post just under my initial post there a little more info there.


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## Plan 9 from OS

squid1035 said:


> Plan 9,
> 
> We've actually been communicating a lot lately. She's tired. Tired of the rut of keeping this busy family going, day to day. Tired of not being able to contribute financially, of not being able to find work. She's tired of always trying to give me the right advice and me, through my stubbornness and pride, not listening. She's done so much for me as wife, as a best friend. And I took it for granted. Simply put.
> 
> If you look at the post just under my initial post there a little more info there.


Everything you write above is quite fixable. The key is whether both of you have the desire to remain together. Tired of keeping the family going. What does that mean? Does that mean keeping up with the household chores or is she talking about running the kids all over the world to attend their sporting events?

From what you wrote, it seems like you are working and going to school so you aren't a whole lot of help around the house or running the kids to places. When you stated keeping the "busy" family going, I'm assuming that means keeping the kids busy with lots of after school activities and any other engagements you may have through church, social clubs, etc that you and/or your wife volunteer in.

Have the two of you sat down to see if there is anything you two are willing to give up - activity wise - to allow your family and you two to spend more time together?


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## Keenwa

I think I"m on the other side of what you describe. I came to the realization about 6 months ago, that i was done, done carrying the weight of the family. I do work, I work full time, take care of the kids, plan all the meals, the outings the vacations, the list goes on. My husband is nice, caring and kind, but there is nothing left between us. I control everything and he says yes to everything. But I'm done, i want him to step up to the plate. But he doesn't. So I can relate to your wife because we have been living in this nebulous of nothing ness for years, not touching each other, not dating, not spending time together as a couple, and now that my husband is trying to do all the stuff he hasn't done, it comes across as contrived somehow. I just cannot come to grips with the fact that maybe he's being genuine. The only reason he is doing this stuff is because I "broke down" one day and said it was over. I feel like I held him to the wall and he agreed to get help, but I feel like he's waiting for me to "get better", so that life can go on. I actually realized that there is no connection, no intimacy between us and that it is not ok with me to live this way. I know a lot of married people do live this way, and it's ok for others, but for me, it's not. A lot of my therapy has been on coming to grips with the fact that it is ok to feel the way I do, and just because others think maybe I'm nuts to walk away from a "good guy", that it's still ok to do so.

We've been doing counselling for 6 months, together and separately, and we are still in the same place. I'm not sure it's fixable. I wonder if sometimes there are so many things, so many resentments that occur from bad communication, co-dependency etc... that it's hard to come back from it.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> I think I"m on the other side of what you describe. I came to the realization about 6 months ago, that i was done, done carrying the weight of the family. I do work, I work full time, take care of the kids, plan all the meals, the outings the vacations, the list goes on. My husband is nice, caring and kind, but there is nothing left between us. I control everything and he says yes to everything. But I'm done, i want him to step up to the plate. But he doesn't. So I can relate to your wife because we have been living in this nebulous of nothing ness for years, not touching each other, not dating, not spending time together as a couple, and now that my husband is trying to do all the stuff he hasn't done, it comes across as contrived somehow. I just cannot come to grips with the fact that maybe he's being genuine. The only reason he is doing this stuff is because I "broke down" one day and said it was over. I feel like I held him to the wall and he agreed to get help, but I feel like he's waiting for me to "get better", so that life can go on. I actually realized that there is no connection, no intimacy between us and that it is not ok with me to live this way. I know a lot of married people do live this way, and it's ok for others, but for me, it's not.


Keenwa,

I feel where you're coming from. I don't think we're quite at that point. And I wouldn't let it get to the point where we don't spend time together and at least have some type of date night, even if it's spent just staying in and watching a movie and have a drink with each other. And at least once a year I try and plan a romantic getaway just for us. It's hard with a very busy family life, and sometimes she feels she's the only one making the plans.

My wife is at the point where she feels she's been given a very backseat role in the relationship, not being included on big decisions or who's advice is not being heeded. And she's right. I'm too stubborn for my own good. I think as men we're often cornered and controlled by our own stupid pride and stuck in indecision. That doesn't excuse us at all. But I think that's where it comes from, the distance. Like we're so stuck in our own heads that we often overlook the people that are closest to us. 

Communication is the key. We've been having some really deep conversations lately - talking about what we both want for ourselves and for each other - and realizing that we used to be like this before, open and direct. Life and its pressures kind of made us forget about what we had. So now we're trying to get back to that. But like you said, it's hard to come back from this place, with all of the built up resentments and doubts...and the co-dependency. I know there's part of her that wonders if what I'm doing is also contrived and maybe not as sincere, also like you said.

I just know that neither of us can see a future without each other. Even if it came to divorce, I could never see me not having some kind of integral part in her life. And same goes for her. No way. Weird right?

Good luck to you. It's an uncertain road, for sure.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Keenwa,
> 
> I feel where you're coming from. I don't think we're quite at that point. And I wouldn't let it get to the point where we don't spend time together and at least have some type of date night, even if it's spent just staying in and watching a movie and have a drink with each other. And at least once a year I try and plan a romantic getaway just for us. It's hard with a very busy family life, and sometimes she feels she's the only one making the plans.
> 
> My wife is at the point where she feels she's been given a very backseat role in the relationship, not being included on big decisions or who's advice is not being heeded. And she's right. I'm too stubborn for my own good. I think as men we're often cornered and controlled by our own stupid pride and stuck in indecision. That doesn't excuse us at all. But I think that's where it comes from, the distance. Like we're so stuck in our own heads that we often overlook the people that are closest to us.
> 
> Communication is the key. We've been having some really deep conversations lately - talking about what we both want for ourselves and for each other - and realizing that we used to be like this before, open and direct. Life and its pressures kind of made us forget about what we had. So now we're trying to get back to that. But like you said, it's hard to come back from this place, with all of the built up resentments and doubts...and the co-dependency. I know there's part of her that wonders if what I'm doing is also contrived and maybe not as sincere, also like you said.
> 
> I just know that neither of us can see a future without each other. Even if it came to divorce, I could never see me not having some kind of integral part in her life. And same goes for her. No way. Weird right?
> 
> Good luck to you. It's an uncertain road, for sure.


Well that sounds promising. I have been asking my husband to step up to the plate, make some decisions, even just plan a date, organize the babysitting, or even just plan a meal, but his reply is "I'm working on it"... I wonder how long he plans to "work on it". 

Sounds like your conversations are good. Ours are not really. He is not able to connect to how he feels about anything. When I ask "how do you feel" he replies "I think...". So I really have no idea how he feels about anything. 

If you guys are both committed to making it work or at least giving it a shot that's the first step I think. I just came to the realization through our couples therapy that I am not committed, I am done, I don't see any progress in the last 6 months, and I can't keep on doing the same nothingness. He thinks there is progress and I don't. So though we are great friends sometimes maybe it's ok to say "I love you, goodbye". 

I'm glad for you that you both seem into making it work. The fact that you guys can laugh together is awesome. I can't remember the last time I laughed with my husband... 

Good luck! Sounds like a rough patch but something that you can get through.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> Well that sounds promising. I have been asking my husband to step up to the plate, make some decisions, even just plan a date, organize the babysitting, or even just plan a meal, but his reply is "I'm working on it"... I wonder how long he plans to "work on it".
> 
> Sounds like your conversations are good. Ours are not really. He is not able to connect to how he feels about anything. When I ask "how do you feel" he replies "I think...". So I really have no idea how he feels about anything.
> 
> If you guys are both committed to making it work or at least giving it a shot that's the first step I think. I just came to the realization through our couples therapy that I am not committed, I am done, I don't see any progress in the last 6 months, and I can't keep on doing the same nothingness. He thinks there is progress and I don't. So though we are great friends sometimes maybe it's ok to say "I love you, goodbye".
> 
> I'm glad for you that you both seem into making it work. The fact that you guys can laugh together is awesome. I can't remember the last time I laughed with my husband...


We seem to vacillate a lot between a cautioned road to recovery and total emotional atrophy. Yeah, at least we can laugh. But it's more of a welcomed respite from the cloudy drudgery that we're otherwise stuck in. 

My birthday is tomorrow. My wife bought us some dinner cruise tickets a while ago. It's going to be a very awkward 3 hours. Almost comical. Yay.

I want to step up, but as you say, I don't want it to come across as fake. I know it's hard for my wife to take any gestures of mine without a huge grain of salt. But as a woman and as someone who's kind of in the same boat as my wife, how would you advise me to act? I don't want to smother. Nor do I want to be too distant. But I'm also in the business of emotional self-preservation, trying to brace for the final blow, so to speak. So confused. I hate this.


Peace.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> We seem to vacillate a lot between a cautioned road to recovery and total emotional atrophy. Yeah, at least we can laugh. But it's more of a welcomed respite from the cloudy drudgery that we're otherwise stuck in.
> 
> My birthday is tomorrow. My wife bought us some dinner cruise tickets a while ago. It's going to be a very awkward 3 hours. Almost comical. Yay.
> 
> I want to step up, but as you say, I don't want it to come across as fake. I know it's hard for my wife to take any gestures of mine without a huge grain of salt. But as a woman and as someone who's kind of in the same boat as my wife, how would you advise me to act? I don't want to smother. Nor do I want to be too distant. But I'm also in the business of emotional self-preservation, trying to brace for the final blow, so to speak. So confused. I hate this.
> 
> 
> Peace.


happy birthday! wow that is a tough question to answer not knowing you or your wife. 

I can speak to what I would want, I think in that situation I would want to just try to have fun, dance, smile , laugh, not talk about our problems, be treated like a woman, maybe to just pretend for one night that this is the most amazing date ever. sometimes it helps to fake it till you make it , ie just commit to having fun , and take the lead, of course you won't know if she will jump on board ( pardon the pun) or not but hell at this point isn't it worth a try? I mean nothing can be worse than sitting looking at each other with disdain for 3 hours. 

I work in the arts and I can tell you when I walk on stage all my problems disappear, sometimes just acting is enough to get you out of the rut even if just for a few hours. you cannot control how she reacts or feels about it but you can control how you will act and how you will feel. 

I would love my husband to just jump in with both feet , put a smile on his face, take me by the hand and say "come on babe, let's have fun!". 

we had a similar uncomfortable birthday dinner a few months ago. 

maybe the biggest issue is that we worry so much about how we come across, not wanting to be fake that we are paralyzed and cannot do anything? he'll if you take a stand and you come across as fake it is better than coming across as nothing whatsoever.... at least you can have fun! 

let me know how it goes!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keenwa

over20 said:


> As females financial security is a need, not that we are all about money, but we need to feel safe in our environment. She needs you to slay the dragons so to speak. If she won't listen, maybe write a letter telling her the steps you are taking to pay down bills and living more frugal. If she has been handling the phone calls/emails/letters in the mail from creditors, you take it away from her. Tell her you are the protector and you WILL handle all money problems so she can be the loving homemaker. ...She needs a strong leader!


You make a lot of good points over20, except for this one. EGADS I cringe to read this blanket statement about women. :scratchhead::scratchhead:

Not all women are looking for a "big man of a" husband who takes all control and takes away all the things that we cannot deal with so we can be good homemakers. 

You might want to rephrase that to say "*I *needed my husband to take control and make me feel confident that he had things under control so I could be the homemaker *I* wanted to be". It has nothing to do with being a woman, but with what your wants are. It is false to say that women "need a strong leader", or that "females need financial security". 

Personally if my husband started acting like this it would draw me away from him faster than anything! I would have never married a man like this to begin with. I have no desire to be a homemaker, I love my family, and I take care of them but a homemaker I am not. There is nothing wrong with being one, just not what I am all about. 

What is important in a relationship is tending to each other's needs, respecting each other, and lots of the points you made make a lot of sense, the fact that we are not living the situation but going through it, and i have also felt that sense that in order to get through the rough patches we need to feel like we are doing it together. 

My sense from what Squid has explained is the disconnect with his wife has more to do with a loss of intimacy and respect for each other, rather than tangible issues of money etc. Sure it all plays into it but I think maybe it has to do with not feeling loved by your spouse. So while you say for you it was important for your man to take control, and that is how you felt loved, perhaps for Squid's wife it has to do with sharing feelings, and being connected on a deeper level, not so much about the paying bills etc. I know for me, it's about having a relationship as a couple, about feeling loved as a woman, not just a mother, parenting partner etc etc. 

I guess that's what makes relationships so complicated, each one is unique. What works for me wouldn't work for you, and vice versa.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> happy birthday! wow that is a tough question to answer not knowing you or your wife.
> 
> I can speak to what I would want, I think in that situation I would want to just try to have fun, dance, smile , laugh, not talk about our problems, be treated like a woman, maybe to just pretend for one night that this is the most amazing date ever. sometimes it helps to fake it till you make it , ie just commit to having fun , and take the lead, of course you won't know if she will jump on board ( pardon the pun) or not but hell at this point isn't it worth a try? I mean nothing can be worse than sitting looking at each other with disdain for 3 hours.
> 
> 
> I would love my husband to just jump in with both feet , put a smile on his face, take me by the hand and say "come on babe, let's have fun!".
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keenwa,

Well, the evening was not a disaster! That's hopeful. We danced and laughed and, of course, there were a few awkward silences. But we did not look at each other with disdain for 3 hours. Relief. We both really tried to make the best of the evening.

My 8 year old son remarked before we left for the cruise that we were going on a "romantic date". My wife then kind of said to me as and aside, "well, maybe not so much the romantic part." So there was that. Any time I would try to move a little closer to her during the cruise, she would simultaneously back away. So there's definitely a cautious air about her now. But she say did at one point in the evening say that she's pretty sure we'll be okay no matter what. I guess we're just trying to figure out how to get maybe not back to where we were, but to a new place - where ever that might be. The scary unknown.


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## squid1035

Over20,

You make some very good points. I think we are a mix of what you and Keenwa are talking about. The stresses of life and getting caught up in the pressure really got in between us. I lost sight of her emotional needs because I was too fixated on figuring how I was going to make things better. Now there's a chasm between us and I have no idea how to close the distance. I know it's going to take time. 

She hasn't slept in our bed for the past few days, opting to sleep in our youngest's room who's all the more happy to pretend camp in his little tent. I'm just going to start making all of the date plans and hope she at least agrees to go and we can maybe rebuild our relationship from there.

It's the little things that get to me the most. We always shared our meals when we ate out before. Not so much now. I think she's willing to try but she's very guarded. 

I'd love some more perspective.


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## squid1035

over20 said:


> By the way we celebrated our 21st wedding anniversary yesterday and we joked that with all the stress we had so far we should have been divorced by now!!


Congrats to you! I'm really hoping we can make it to our 14th anniversary and still be able to laugh with each other.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Over20,
> 
> You make some very good points. I think we are a mix of what you and Keenwa are talking about. The stresses of life and getting caught up in the pressure really got in between us. I lost sight of her emotional needs because I was too fixated on figuring how I was going to make things better. Now there's a chasm between us and I have no idea how to close the distance. I know it's going to take time.
> 
> She hasn't slept in our bed for the past few days, opting to sleep in our youngest's room who's all the more happy to pretend camp in his little tent. I'm just going to start making all of the date plans and hope she at least agrees to go and we can maybe rebuild our relationship from there.
> 
> It's the little things that get to me the most. We always shared our meals when we ate out before. Not so much now. I think she's willing to try but she's very guarded.
> 
> I'd love some more perspective.


Hi squid, glad to hear you had some fun on your birthday! I am finding myself feeling very much perhaps like your wife does. I feel like I am trying SO hard to feel something but it's not happening. Is it because I am cold and shut down or is it just that me being authentic means me not connecting with him. I find it so hard to believe that we can get back to the way we were, because I'm not even sure if there was a way we were. I think my barometer has changed. I think where I was satisfied with things just being ok before, I am not anymore. I also feel kind of skeptical that things are changing. I feel kind of like I just told an alcoholic that he needs to stop drinking, so he does and many things get better, but I don't have much faith that it will continue on... I guess bottom line is I've lost my trust for him. 

On the flip side all of this therapy we are doing, our commnication is better than ever, we are being more caring and more friendly than ever. So not sure I can offer much perspective, just perhaps an appreciation.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> Hi squid, glad to hear you had some fun on your birthday! I am finding myself feeling very much perhaps like your wife does. I feel like I am trying SO hard to feel something but it's not happening. Is it because I am cold and shut down or is it just that me being authentic means me not connecting with him. I find it so hard to believe that we can get back to the way we were, because I'm not even sure if there was a way we were. I think my barometer has changed. I think where I was satisfied with things just being ok before, I am not anymore. I also feel kind of skeptical that things are changing. I feel kind of like I just told an alcoholic that he needs to stop drinking, so he does and many things get better, but I don't have much faith that it will continue on... I guess bottom line is I've lost my trust for him.
> 
> On the flip side all of this therapy we are doing, our commnication is better than ever, we are being more caring and more friendly than ever. So not sure I can offer much perspective, just perhaps an appreciation.


I think that's precisely where my wife is. I've lost her trust. Which makes me sad. I'm such a mix of emotions. I'm sad that the love we had is lost, even if it wasn't perfect. It seems gone now. I'm disappointed that she gave up on me. But I also have empathy for her too. How can I blame her? Self loathing is an unwelcome visitor in my life too. Ugh.

I'm glad to hear you two are at least communicating. Our "communication" now seems more like her just telling me what she doesn't like in me - as in what she could accept before, she hates now. I don't have a lot of hope right now. I persevere now only for my own self-preservation and for our kids. I can't control what she feels.

I know I have certainly made more than my fair share of mistakes and I might have lost sight of her but in my heart I never gave up on our love, as muddled as it might have become. I know there are things that need to be fixed. But I'm just so sad and disappointed that she quit on us. I literally have dreams of just holding her in my arms. And then my conscience always intervenes and tells me to wake up, it's not real. It's just a dream. 

If she didn't quit, it sure feels like it. There's no love in her eyes for me. I tried to look into her eyes last night - for just a quiet moment - and she laughed me off saying I looked "creepy". That's a knife right into my heart.

At this point, I guess I don't need perspective - just the catharsis of sharing my emotions.

Thanks.


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## karole

Squid, I'm sorry for the situation you are in. I sincerely hope you and your wife work things out. I know you said you do not believe your wife is in an affair, but have you done any checking? Does she guard her phone? Has she given you the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech? Check your cell phone records to see if she makes a lot of texts and/or phone calls to a number you don't recognize. Check your computer history. I hope that isn't what is going on, but you need to rule it out. Best of luck to you.


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## squid1035

karole said:


> Squid, I'm sorry for the situation you are in. I sincerely hope you and your wife work things out. I know you said you do not believe your wife is in an affair, but have you done any checking? Does she guard her phone? Has she given you the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech? Check your cell phone records to see if she makes a lot of texts and/or phone calls to a number you don't recognize. Check your computer history. I hope that isn't what is going on, but you need to rule it out. Best of luck to you.


I don't think so. Yes, I've checked her phone records. I felt really bad about it too. It's just something that we'd always said we'd never do. Is this really what everyone assumes of all relationships? 

I tell you, I've run the full spectrum of dark emotions today. From despondency to full on rage. If I found out she cheated I'm not sure what I'd do.


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## karole

Squid: Read some of the threads on the CWI forum - spouses in some of those threads also said there was no way their spouse was in an affair only to eventually find out they actually were. I'm not saying your wife is definitely in an affair, but you need to rule it out. A marriage cannot survive if there are 3 people in it. I sincerely hope that she isn't.


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## LongWalk

Have you read. Bagdon's thread?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## squid1035

LongWalk said:


> Have you read. Bagdon's thread?
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_



I like MrK's better. I think that more applies to me. I need to take responsibility for how I pushed my wife away for too long and now I'm in panic mode that she's pushing me away.

F**k. I hope it's not too late.

If you read all the way through his thread, it's really kind of where I think I'm at. It's the most brutally honest thing I've read here at TAM - from all involved in the thread.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/69305-we-cant-teach-our-sons-about-walk-away-wives.html

I don't think she has entirely walked away. But she's thinking about it.


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## Keenwa

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Keenwa

Keenwa said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


hey squid, sorry to hear you are having a rough day. the toughest thing to realize is that there are 2 people in this relationship. I have the same reaction when my husband looks at me. it is an awful feeling to know that he is trying to connect and to me it seems creepy or contrived. what I did realize today after our session was that I need to either get both feet back in the door, or get out. it is unfair to the both of us if I am staying in this house but not willing to budge an inch. I am not having an affair but I am emotionally checked out and in a way seem to have decided that I want something else. 

it sounds like you need to cut yourself a break. I know that I seem to feel more respect for my husband when he takes a stand. He said to me yesterday " I want a partner who is happy"

I can also acknowledge that though I am pissed as hell, full of anger for him letting me down, I have to acknowledge that I played a role in this. it is not entirely his fault. I was not good with stating my limits and my boundaries , I tried to make it work until I just couldn't try anymore and felt like I was going to die in this marriage. I felt like I was being suffocated. my first reaction was to blame blame blame and then I had to come to the sobering reality that I played a large role in this marriage breakdown. 

Give yourself a break, and don't forget to be kind to yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squid1035

Keenwa, 

I'm pretty sure my self-loathing is pretty much spot on. I let that s***t that those commenters above suggested get the best of me. It's amazing the crap your mind will let you do when you're acting out of total desperation and insecurity. I think I just shot the relationship dead. I don't know if there's a chance of coming back from this one. Seriously. Like I want to leave out of not feeling like I deserve to be here. Yeah, that's some serious guilt. But I keep doing and saying things that, without fail, sabatoge any recovery we might be working towards. I need to shut the **** up and stop doing things. I keep trying to control the chaos and only end up making more of it. I'm the Chaos Kid. 

This might really be the beginning of the downward spiral.


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## Keenwa

What do you mean your self loathing is spot on? 

Sounds like you need to reconnect with yourself. Instead of trying to fix fix, and do the right thing you need to figure out what you want, what are your boundaries, how do you want to live? I am feeling like I wish my husband would do this. I feel like he is so focused on me, I feel like I"m the neurotic wife having a nervous breakdown and he's just trying to take care of me. What I want is for him to take a stand and make a decision for once in his life. But he doesn't. 

I decided last week that I need to either put a smile on my face and treat him like I would a new relationship, be happy, smile, laugh etc... but now that I am doing that I am realizing I am getting nothing back from him, so it is becoming more and more obvious to me that I need to get out. I am not being fed by this relationship at all. What used to feed me was our codependency (which I never realized I was living till the therapist told us so)... our mutual lack of communication has been what has kept us married so long, and what has made us drift apart.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> What do you mean your self loathing is spot on?
> 
> Sounds like you need to reconnect with yourself. Instead of trying to fix fix, and do the right thing you need to figure out what you want, what are your boundaries, how do you want to live? I am feeling like I wish my husband would do this. I feel like he is so focused on me, I feel like I"m the neurotic wife having a nervous breakdown and he's just trying to take care of me. What I want is for him to take a stand and make a decision for once in his life. But he doesn't.
> 
> I decided last week that I need to either put a smile on my face and treat him like I would a new relationship, be happy, smile, laugh etc... but now that I am doing that I am realizing I am getting nothing back from him, so it is becoming more and more obvious to me that I need to get out. I am not being fed by this relationship at all. What used to feed me was our codependency (which I never realized I was living till the therapist told us so)... our mutual lack of communication has been what has kept us married so long, and what has made us drift apart.


I feel like that is where we are now. I'm feeling like a need to take a stand. Right now, she's kind of dictating the relationship - very determined to hang on to her resentment. I'm not expecting her to instantly forgive me. We both realize that things were not so perfect before. Neither of us spoke up enough concerning how we regarded each other. So now we're in limbo. Who's going to make the 1st step? We were on the verge of separation on Friday. We're still contemplating it, if only to give each other some breathing room.

Have you 2 ever considered separating, Keenwa? I'm not sure it's the remedy. More like a prolonging of the process of whatever we are going through. We have both made mistakes. If you're going to count, I made the bigger mistakes but she's not without fault either. I'm trying to read as much as I can to help improve me and focus on my own growth. My wife is content to wish that she could gain a "change of scenery" to help her refocus. Maybe that is what she needs. Her solutions all involve some form of her leaving for a time. I suppose a vacation is not so bad. But, of course, I worry.

Perhaps you're right. I need to focus on me and what I want from this relationship. I want her to be happy but I don't think that I'm the sole reason she's become so happy with her life. She doesn't seem to want to take responsibilities for her decisions - and even her indecision. Bah! 

We definitely have codependency issues. How do you move past them? Personal growth I'm sure must be the focus. I'm all for rebuilding our relationship. I just need her to step up and decide that she's willing to take part in this relationship too.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> I feel like that is where we are now. I'm feeling like a need to take a stand. Right now, she's kind of dictating the relationship - very determined to hang on to her resentment. I'm not expecting her to instantly forgive me. We both realize that things were not so perfect before. Neither of us spoke up enough concerning how we regarded each other. So now we're in limbo. Who's going to make the 1st step? We were on the verge of separation on Friday. We're still contemplating it, if only to give each other some breathing room.
> 
> Have you 2 ever considered separating, Keenwa? I'm not sure it's the remedy. More like a prolonging of the process of whatever we are going through. We have both made mistakes. If you're going to count, I made the bigger mistakes but she's not without fault either. I'm trying to read as much as I can to help improve me and focus on my own growth. My wife is content to wish that she could gain a "change of scenery" to help her refocus. Maybe that is what she needs. Her solutions all involve some form of her leaving for a time. I suppose a vacation is not so bad. But, of course, I worry.
> 
> Perhaps you're right. I need to focus on me and what I want from this relationship. I want her to be happy but I don't think that I'm the sole reason she's become so happy with her life. She doesn't seem to want to take responsibilities for her decisions - and even her indecision. Bah!
> 
> We definitely have codependency issues. How do you move past them? Personal growth I'm sure must be the focus. I'm all for rebuilding our relationship. I just need her to step up and decide that she's willing to take part in this relationship too.


Hey Squid, sorry I didn't see this post! How are things now? I realized this was a few weeks ago. For me the getting past the codependency has been my therapist continually hounding me to state what I want and need from him. This is hard for me because at the moment my instinct is to say "I want him to leave me alone". But the truth of it is I am still in the same house,... so if I'm going to be here, I need to be here, and make an effort. That is hard for me to say what I need. Because I feel like what I need is for him to have initiative but this is too vague. I need to make specific requests, like ie. "It is important for me that you come to parent teacher meetings and make that a priority". When really what I want to say is "I can't believe you don't put any value on meeting your child's teacher".. Also for me getting out of the co-dependency is not feeling like I need to "take care" of him. So I have started living my life, seeking out things I want to do that I love, and I was feeling guilty because he's not doing any of this. So I was thinking "crap... well I need to plan a date for us, because he is not doing anything he loves and he's waiting at home for me"... but realizing that no, I don't need to, if I'm not moved to. If he is sad that I am doing things, he can plan a date. I don't need to take care of his feelings. I can be empathic but I don't need to fix his feelings. Does that make sense? That was huge for me to realize that. 

I am so sick of feeling like crap all the time, and feeling like if I can just get out of here, I'd feel better, but that's not true. I need to find my own happiness and quite blaming him for making me unhappy. You know "be the change you want to see". 

I think about separating all the time. but now it doesn't stress me out so much, because I don't see it anymore as this tragic thing. So that's what I'm working on this week. You know prentending that he's exactly the man I want him to be, and acting towards him this way. Because if I continue to be pissed and negative, how can we move forward at all? we are totally stuck. I'll let you know if it works. 
'


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> I don't need to take care of his feelings. I can be empathic but I don't need to fix his feelings. Does that make sense? That was huge for me to realize that.
> 
> I am so sick of feeling like crap all the time, and feeling like if I can just get out of here, I'd feel better, but that's not true. I need to find my own happiness and quite blaming him for making me unhappy. You know "be the change you want to see".
> 
> I think about separating all the time. but now it doesn't stress me out so much, because I don't see it anymore as this tragic thing. So that's what I'm working on this week. You know prentending that he's exactly the man I want him to be, and acting towards him this way. Because if I continue to be pissed and negative, how can we move forward at all? we are totally stuck. I'll let you know if it works.
> '


Thanks for replying. 

I'm where you are, but on the other side. I have to accept that I can't control her feelings or how she reacts towards me. Nor can I fix her heart. I can only control how I choose to act towards her and how I adjust to her newly expressed needs. If she accepts me, great. If not, oh well. I'm having to learn that I have to let go a little bit and let things fall where they may. Very cliched.

We'll have been separated 2 weeks this coming Sunday. Like I said, she's accepted me back, but there's a real caution in the way we both act towards each other. Me afraid to inadvertently hurt her again or set her off in a bad way, and she afraid to be hurt or disappointed by me again. We're walking on eggshells with each other.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Thanks for replying.
> 
> I'm where you are, but on the other side. I have to accept that I can't control her feelings or how she reacts towards me. Nor can I fix her heart. I can only control how I choose to act towards her and how I adjust to her newly expressed needs. If she accepts me, great. If not, oh well. I'm having to learn that I have to let go a little bit and let things fall where they may. Very cliched.
> 
> We'll have been separated 2 weeks this coming Sunday. Like I said, she's accepted me back, but there's a real caution in the way we both act towards each other. Me afraid to inadvertently hurt her again or set her off in a bad way, and she afraid to be hurt or disappointed by me again. We're walking on eggshells with each other.


just curious how are your kids coping with this? I can't remember if you said their ages?

interesting she would take you back but not change her behavior but then again I do find it hard to put regrets and resentment behinds as well....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> just curious how are your kids coping with this? I can't remember if you said their ages?
> 
> interesting she would take you back but not change her behavior but then again I do find it hard to put regrets and resentment behinds as well....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, Keenwa. Didn't see this reply.

The kids are taking it alright, I guess. They're ages 8, 13, and 14. They know something is not right, obviously, now that I'm out of the house. I asked them what they thought about the whole arrangement. They don't like it. They think it's weird. I reassured them that mommy and daddy just need to work some issues out and that it's just temporary. My wife told them the same thing. I think my 8 year old is really affected by it. He's very nervous about it. He hates that have to go after I visit. Very sad.

Like I said, I've been given the green light to move back, which I might do this week. I'm not sure if my wife has really thought about me moving back in, however. We're communicating much better now and getting along really well, but there's still an awkwardness. I'm not sure if me moving back will have a positive effect on our relationship or if it will just trigger more negative emotions that are lurking under the surface. That's what I'm worried about.

It's like you say. Just because things are seemingly hunky-dory on the outside does not mean at all that the root issues have really been resolved.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Sorry, Keenwa. Didn't see this reply.
> 
> The kids are taking it alright, I guess. They're ages 8, 13, and 14. They know something is not right, obviously, now that I'm out of the house. I asked them what they thought about the whole arrangement. They don't like it. They think it's weird. I reassured them that mommy and daddy just need to work some issues out and that it's just temporary. My wife told them the same thing. I think my 8 year old is really affected by it. He's very nervous about it. He hates that have to go after I visit. Very sad.
> 
> Like I said, I've been given the green light to move back, which I might do this week. I'm not sure if my wife has really thought about me moving back in, however. We're communicating much better now and getting along really well, but there's still an awkwardness. I'm not sure if me moving back will have a positive effect on our relationship or if it will just trigger more negative emotions that are lurking under the surface. That's what I'm worried about.
> 
> It's like you say. Just because things are seemingly hunky-dory on the outside does not mean at all that the root issues have really been resolved.


one thing that has helped me anyhow was our MC saying there was a moratorium on sex. HA HA. sounds funny I know, but I was feeling really resentful that he would even approach me in bed after a full day of disconnect, or what I see as disconnect. So for me it has been really helpful to know that he's not going to ask, and that if there is physical contact it's purely genuine and caring, not just grappling for some action. But then again that was one of my issues, was that there was only physical contact in bed, and it made me really mad. 

The other thing that is really helping me is the process of differentiation... really focusing on what i want separate from the relationship, and contemplating those things even if they would mean moving away etc.. ie jobs etc in other cities which I think are inspiring etc... things I never would have contemplated in the past because they were "unrealistic". Doesn't mean I am going to act on it, but for me it's huge to know that I'm not stuck in a cage, that I do have choice over my life. That was part of where my depression was coming from was the idea of not having any control over my life. So that is helping me to see myself more clearly, and to acknowledge what I want and need, separate from family, kids, spouse. Kind of like finding my identity back. 

It makes me really sad to think of how my 8 year old would react. I think my 12 year would actually do better, but my 8 year old would be very sad.


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> one thing that has helped me anyhow was our MC saying there was a moratorium on sex. HA HA. sounds funny I know, but I was feeling really resentful that he would even approach me in bed after a full day of disconnect, or what I see as disconnect. So for me it has been really helpful to know that he's not going to ask, and that if there is physical contact it's purely genuine and caring, not just grappling for some action. But then again that was one of my issues, was that there was only physical contact in bed, and it made me really mad.
> 
> The other thing that is really helping me is the process of differentiation... really focusing on what i want separate from the relationship, and contemplating those things even if they would mean moving away etc.. ie jobs etc in other cities which I think are inspiring etc... things I never would have contemplated in the past because they were "unrealistic". Doesn't mean I am going to act on it, but for me it's huge to know that I'm not stuck in a cage, that I do have choice over my life. That was part of where my depression was coming from was the idea of not having any control over my life. So that is helping me to see myself more clearly, and to acknowledge what I want and need, separate from family, kids, spouse. Kind of like finding my identity back.
> 
> .


We've both always been sort of touchy-feely beyond the bedroom. Not in an appropriate way. Just always lightly touching and holding hands. But she said a few weeks ago that she didn't know if she could ever be intimate with me again, which crushed me. As if she's suddenly found me to be a stranger. But then there are those more surprisingly tender moments that I talked about recently.

My wife is definitely in the differentiation mode, as you describe. She's so focused on the mantra that everything would be so much easier or better if she were in the Philippines. Going back to school would be easier. Getting a job would be easier. Her focus is not here at all. Obviously, she can enroll here. And she has. But her heart is at her other home. She's planning a long awaited trip home next summer. I have no idea if she'll come back like she'll just change her mind and never catch that return flight home.


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> We've both always been sort of touchy-feely beyond the bedroom. Not in an appropriate way. Just always lightly touching and holding hands. But she said a few weeks ago that she didn't know if she could ever be intimate with me again, which crushed me. As if she's suddenly found me to be a stranger. But then there are those more surprisingly tender moments that I talked about recently.
> 
> My wife is definitely in the differentiation mode, as you describe. She's so focused on the mantra that everything would be so much easier or better if she were in the Philippines. Going back to school would be easier. Getting a job would be easier. Her focus is not here at all. Obviously, she can enroll here. And she has. But her heart is at her other home. She's planning a long awaited trip home next summer. I have no idea if she'll come back like she'll just change her mind and never catch that return flight home.


perhaps in her mind, the reason she is not home with her family is because of you and that she is blaming you for this in her mind? I know I was blaming my H for not travelling etc... when that is really what I want. But I have now realized that we don't need to travel together. He is more of a homebody and I love to travel, so what is to stop me from doing this without him? I think the only way to have hope for getting through this tough time is to acknowledge what we really want individually and to allow each other to do these things. I know for us, we were so focused on family and staying together we completely lost ourselves in that... not healthy at all. And leads to blame, anger, frustration etc...


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## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> perhaps in her mind, the reason she is not home with her family is because of you and that she is blaming you for this in her mind? I know I was blaming my H for not travelling etc... when that is really what I want. But I have now realized that we don't need to travel together. He is more of a homebody and I love to travel, so what is to stop me from doing this without him? I think the only way to have hope for getting through this tough time is to acknowledge what we really want individually and to allow each other to do these things. I know for us, we were so focused on family and staying together we completely lost ourselves in that... not healthy at all. And leads to blame, anger, frustration etc...


Probably right about her blaming me for losing her connection with her family a bit, but she's not saying that. 

As for travel, we actually do travel. She and I have taken a trip somewhere together every year for the past 10 years. I really think homesickness and isolation are the key players here. We haven't traveled back to the Philippines simply because it isn't feasible to get us all over there. It'd cost over $10K just to get us there. So letting her go by herself is really something we should have done a while ago. But she was always so bent on trying to have our whole family go and would become so discouraged and disappointed that it couldn't happen, aka "blame, anger, frustration etc..."

Your comment was pretty much on the mark. I am so willing to let her go and find herself so long as I don't lose her in the process. I'm empathetic and selfish at the same time. :scratchhead:


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## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> Your comment was pretty much on the mark. I am so willing to let her go and find herself so long as I don't lose her in the process. I'm empathetic and selfish at the same time. :scratchhead:


well unfortunately I don't think you have control over whether you lose her or not, but holding on to her will only make her want to leave. I am finding it interesting how we have to let go of hanging on to hang on. Kind of ironic. But I guess we lose ourselves in the hanging on, and the we don't know who we are. The best thing if we love someone is to let them go, I know it's cliché, but it's true.

She will respect you for it, and hopefully will feel loved because you care about her enough to let her reconnect with her family and her culture.


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## sayuri

I can't even believe that what I am reading has been written by a man because I am a wife on the other end, and I could only begin to wish he would admit any of the things your writing. Like you, I don't want to let go of this marriage. I'm holding on strong but feel that the grip is loosening. In our case, it is not so much financial, it's I think his man-pride or something. Truly I don't know I guess because I am not a man.
He too is kind and caring but he is also "working on it" by "trying as hard as he can" but how do I respond by saying that I don't see his "trying." The problem is that when he tries, it comes out wrong but even that is not the problem - the problem is that after I suggest another way of doing things, he basically has the "I understand your suggestion but I'm doing it my way" and then it blows up. God forbid, I point it out because then his feelings (I call it pride) is hurt and I end up being the bad guy for making him feel bad. Squid1035, from your male-perspective, what can I do?
One thing is for sure, you both have to be on-board with the desire to making the marriage work out; without this step one, step two will never matter. I don't know your wife, but if she is reasonable and not ready to give up, then find that loophole to bring her back to your side. Sometimes that means trying and failing miserably until she gives in. Only you can decide when you've had enough of trying. That's my female perspective; I Love my husband and if I see him trying even when I don't support, then there is no way I could turn my back on him, but I Have to want to keep this marriage. Truly, I hope his helps.


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## squid1035

sayuri said:


> I can't even believe that what I am reading has been written by a man because I am a wife on the other end, and I could only begin to wish he would admit any of the things your writing. Like you, I don't want to let go of this marriage. I'm holding on strong but feel that the grip is loosening. In our case, it is not so much financial, it's I think his man-pride or something. Truly I don't know I guess because I am not a man.
> He too is kind and caring but he is also "working on it" by "trying as hard as he can" but how do I respond by saying that I don't see his "trying." The problem is that when he tries, it comes out wrong but even that is not the problem - the problem is that after I suggest another way of doing things, he basically has the "I understand your suggestion but I'm doing it my way" and then it blows up. God forbid, I point it out because then his feelings (I call it pride) is hurt and I end up being the bad guy for making him feel bad. Squid1035, from your male-perspective, what can I do?
> One thing is for sure, you both have to be on-board with the desire to making the marriage work out; without this step one, step two will never matter. I don't know your wife, but if she is reasonable and not ready to give up, then find that loophole to bring her back to your side. Sometimes that means trying and failing miserably until she gives in. Only you can decide when you've had enough of trying. That's my female perspective; I Love my husband and if I see him trying even when I don't support, then there is no way I could turn my back on him, but I Have to want to keep this marriage. Truly, I hope his helps.


Sayuri, that helps a lot, actually.

I'm pretty sure she's on board with making the marriage work. Not sure if you've been keeping up with the posts, but we separated for about 3 weeks. I moved to my mother's house and moved back the day before we left for a trip up north to visit my father for 6 days. I know, I was worried that it was going to be a fiasco, but we actually had a really great time. No awkwardness, save for the lack of physical contact. It was probably what we needed as a break from what we were going through the weeks prior. A way to take our minds off of our marriage and just spend it with family amid holiday festivities.

Now that we're back home, it seems like things are better. Still no physical contact, but I'm willing to let that hopefully run its course to where we can simply hold hands again. We haven't had any more deep, specific talks about the state of our marriage but we both already know what each other needs. So I guess we've silently agreed to just start working on it. 

As for your question, I understand about the male-pride thing. That was probably what led us to our crisis. And now, I feel like everything I do is put under even more scrutiny and criticism. The only difference is that now, I've told myself to make myself more open to my wife's advice and consult her when certain decisions arise. Obviously my plan kind of sucked before so now I'm sharing the responsibility. Even then, I'm so worried that anything I do which leads to failure, no matter how insignificant, will trigger her to revert back to where she was before - completely closed down. So I'm still walking on eggshells, despite the relatively normal veneer of our somewhat happy marriage.

Your husband will continue to make mistakes. He'll continue to disappoint you. I know it's so cliche, but no one's perfect. As long as you can recognize that he's really trying, I think that's a big plus. Tell him that. He'll appreciate the kind words. As for his male pride - hit him with a big dose of loving appreciation and then let him know how you would do something that he's not quite getting right. I think it's really important to try and not focus on just what he's doing wrong. Take a step back at try to appreciate what he's been doing right for you.

Just my two cents.



> I can't even believe that what I am reading has been written by a man because I am a wife on the other end, and I could only begin to wish he would admit any of the things your writing.


That cracked me up. I have been known to have a Dr. John Dorian sense of my own feminine side. I listen to a lot of Sarah McClachlan and have been prone to taking warm, candle-lit bubble baths. 

I would love to let her read my posts. But I'm worried it might bring back bad memories and feelings. What do you think about that? That question goes out to anyone reading this.


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## squid1035

Posted this in another thread but it applies here too.

It's so weird. You've spent this huge chunk of your life with this person. You've shared everything - your soul, your body, your heart. You've experienced the most intimate moments you could ever spend with a person, from sex right down to pooping naked in front of him/her while he/she is standing next to you brushing his/her teeth. Then one day - POOF - that's gone. It's like the spell has been broken. In its place is now indifference and mistrust. You know you haven't changed. For better or worse, your feelings haven't changed. But your partner's have. 

I don't know how unrequited within a marriage can ever work. But I kind of feel that's what is happening right now in my marriage. My wife and I are talking openly and honestly. We're laughing and joking and telling each other stories and sharing our lives. But on the other side, we no longer hold hands or even kiss. It's like I got pushed into the friend-zone inside my own marriage. How the hell is that supposed to work?


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## AlmostYoung

Hi squid, Keenwa has given us some wonderful insight as to where our W's are right now. Since your W is still there, and you guys are getting along well, I'd say there is plenty of hope for a new and better M.

You're right, your W has changed. Actually, she's still changing. Accept her for where she's at right now: Done, but not at all sure what she wants.

Give her time and space. She deserves it, right?

Accept your no touch situation for now... doesn't mean it will be like this forever. 

Listen to her, and listen more. Be there for her. 

Forgive yourself. You did the best you could at the time. You never intended to hurt her. Continuing to be hard on yourself is only holding you back.

Most importantly, LIVE YOUR LIFE!

Build an enjoyable and meaningful life for yourself. Do it for you, not to win her back. What kinds of new, (or old) activities or hobbies are you into? 

I know first hand how badly her rejection hurts you, but you have to rise above this. Decide who you want to be and get to it. Confident people with a zest for life are much more attractive. Only you can make this happen for you. 

Tell me about your Get a Life's.


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## squid1035

AlmostYoung said:


> Hi squid, Keenwa has given us some wonderful insight as to where our W's are right now. Since your W is still there, and you guys are getting along well, I'd say there is plenty of hope for a new and better M.
> 
> You're right, your W has changed. Actually, she's still changing. Accept her for where she's at right now: Done, but not at all sure what she wants.
> 
> Give her time and space. She deserves it, right?
> 
> Accept your no touch situation for now... doesn't mean it will be like this forever.
> 
> Listen to her, and listen more. Be there for her.
> 
> Forgive yourself. You did the best you could at the time. You never intended to hurt her. Continuing to be hard on yourself is only holding you back.
> 
> Most importantly, LIVE YOUR LIFE!
> 
> Build an enjoyable and meaningful life for yourself. Do it for you, not to win her back. What kinds of new, (or old) activities or hobbies are you into?
> 
> I know first hand how badly her rejection hurts you, but you have to rise above this. Decide who you want to be and get to it. Confident people with a zest for life are much more attractive. Only you can make this happen for you.
> 
> Tell me about your Get a Life's.


AlmostYoung,

Thanks for the kind, encouraging words, sincerely.

I actually asked her last night what her thoughts were about us in 2014. I asked if she was hopeful, pessimistic, ambivalent, positive or negative. She seemed positive. But maybe still figuring things out. She didn't really give a definitive response.

We kind of had a talk about all of the things she's feels she missed out on because she waited around - travel, school, work, going back home to see her family. So these are all of the things that have taken a front seat in her life. She figures if she can do these things, she can find a more fulfilled life.

And I'm right there with her. I definitely want her to finish her education and find a career. Travel is absolutely what I want too. She said she's not going to wait for me. She'll visit her "bucket list" travel destinations without me if she has to. Like I don't want to travel?? If I could make $4000 poof out of thin air to go to Paris or Sydney for a couple weeks, don't you think I would??? Her dreams are sometimes impractical within our budget at this time. But she can't seem to see that. Ironic, being that the reason we reached this rift was because of financial issues. 

You're right. I need to focus on me for a while. I'll attend to her needs but I'm not going to get myself down if she doesn't give me at least a little appreciation for the fact that I'm the only one shouldering the actual financial burden of earning money right now. I sound bitter. And I guess I am.

I'm trying to be really hopeful for 2014. 

Happy New Year, everybody.


----------



## AlmostYoung

squid1035 said:


> AlmostYoung,
> 
> Thanks for the kind, encouraging words, sincerely.
> 
> You're welcome. If I can help in any way I'm happy.
> 
> I actually asked her last night what her thoughts were about us in 2014. I asked if she was hopeful, pessimistic, ambivalent, positive or negative. She seemed positive. But maybe still figuring things out. She didn't really give a definitive response.
> 
> Ok, so you asked her and now you know where she's at for the moment. Now avoid any more relationship talks. It puts pressure on her to make a decision when she's really not sure what she wants. You don't want to force that. Just continue being friends for now. You want her to feel comfortable talking with you. If you're not there to listen and understand her during this difficult period in HER life, OM may be.
> 
> We kind of had a talk about all of the things she's feels she missed out on because she waited around - travel, school, work, going back home to see her family. So these are all of the things that have taken a front seat in her life. She figures if she can do these things, she can find a more fulfilled life.
> 
> So if you really listen here, you can see it's not really about you or the M. It's about her and her regrets in life. She needs to figure this stuff out for herself, you CAN'T do it for her. It doesn't work that way. Listen, validate, understand. Do not try to fix this for her.
> 
> And I'm right there with her. I definitely want her to finish her education and find a career. Travel is absolutely what I want too. She said she's not going to wait for me. She'll visit her "bucket list" travel destinations without me if she has to.
> 
> This is good. A lot of this is about your W searching for meaning and purpose in her life. Continue to work with her on this. (but let her lead) Even if the money isn't there right now, having plans and dreams for her future can make a big difference in how she feels about her life, and eventually you.
> 
> You're right. I need to focus on me for a while.
> 
> This is really the key. You can't control her decision on your M. But you can control your response, and your life outside the M. Make a fulfilling life you are satisfied with and you can't go wrong, whether she stays or leaves.
> 
> I'll attend to her needs but I'm not going to get myself down if she doesn't give me at least a little appreciation for the fact that I'm the only one shouldering the actual financial burden of earning money right now. I sound bitter. And I guess I am.


All your feelings are normal, and of course you will sometimes be down and even bitter. Don't let W's actions define who you are. She's in her own transition right now, and doing the best she can. She doing this for her, because she has to. She really doesn't want to hurt you. If you love her you will allow her this time to herself.


----------



## squid1035

Very sage, almost Yoda-like advice. Really, thank you. Keeping the faith is really what's important, I suppose. I'll look forward to the new year and progress.


----------



## squid1035

AlmostYoung,

You know, before we were married, we had a few struggles - even came very close to breaking up. My wife very recently told me that the difference between then and now is that back then the thing that kept us together was that she was afraid of losing "us". Now, she says she doesn't have that fear any more.

Thoughts?


----------



## AlmostYoung

squid1035 said:


> AlmostYoung,
> 
> You know, before we were married, we had a few struggles - even came very close to breaking up. My wife very recently told me that the difference between then and now is that back then the thing that kept us together was that she was afraid of losing "us". Now, she says she doesn't have that fear any more.
> 
> Thoughts?


She doesn't have the fear because she's done... at least for the moment. You need to accept this and go from there. Doesn't mean she won't recommit. The fact that she's still there and confiding in you says something.

Are you afraid of losing her? If the answer is yes, that's completely understandable, but it will help you greatly to work on getting over that fear. It doesn't serve you well in reaching your goal. It can paralyze you from enjoying your life, and also make you look needy. Both of which are not very attractive. 

She's in a funk over her life, she doesn't want to be responsible for your funk too. You have to show a PMA and strength right now. 

It may not seem like it now, but your life can be wonderful and fulfilling without her if it comes to that. Show her a strong and confident man, who may want her, but doesn't need her.

Watching her words and actions closely for signs of re-connect will also hamper your progress. It will keep you spinning if you're always trying to figure her out. She doesn't know what she wants right now, remember? How can you?

Much better to put your focus someplace where you have control, and will get the best bang for your buck... on you. (and your kids) Work on yourself. 

I looked over your first post in this thread, but couldn't figure out how long this has been going on, as you said her issues got better for a while, but then came back. Maybe she started to go through the motions of reconnection before she was ready because she was pushed into it by you? 

It often takes time for feelings to come back, but know that they can. 

No more trying to work on the M with her. No asking where she's at or what she feels about "us". (unless she initiates) Just be the best you, and allow her to figure out her stuff. Be there when she reaches out. It's the only way.


----------



## sammy3

I just found myself saying to friend this weekend, "I want to let my husband go, but I dont want to lose him."

~sammy


----------



## squid1035

sammy3 said:


> I just found myself saying to friend this weekend, "I want to let my husband go, but I dont want to lose him."
> 
> ~sammy


I resemble that remark.


----------



## Keenwa

AlmostYoung said:


> She doesn't have the fear because she's done... at least for the moment. You need to accept this and go from there. Doesn't mean she won't recommit. The fact that she's still there and confiding in you says something.
> 
> Are you afraid of losing her? If the answer is yes, that's completely understandable, but it will help you greatly to work on getting over that fear. It doesn't serve you well in reaching your goal. It can paralyze you from enjoying your life, and also make you look needy. Both of which are not very attractive.
> 
> She's in a funk over her life, she doesn't want to be responsible for your funk too. You have to show a PMA and strength right now.
> 
> It may not seem like it now, but your life can be wonderful and fulfilling without her if it comes to that. Show her a strong and confident man, who may want her, but doesn't need her.
> 
> Watching her words and actions closely for signs of re-connect will also hamper your progress. It will keep you spinning if you're always trying to figure her out. She doesn't know what she wants right now, remember? How can you?
> 
> Much better to put your focus someplace where you have control, and will get the best bang for your buck... on you. (and your kids) Work on yourself.
> 
> I looked over your first post in this thread, but couldn't figure out how long this has been going on, as you said her issues got better for a while, but then came back. Maybe she started to go through the motions of reconnection before she was ready because she was pushed into it by you?
> 
> It often takes time for feelings to come back, but know that they can.
> 
> No more trying to work on the M with her. No asking where she's at or what she feels about "us". (unless she initiates) Just be the best you, and allow her to figure out her stuff. Be there when she reaches out. It's the only way.


Yeah I agree. My H has been working hard at this, and it is making me see him in a new light. Only problem is I still feel like his biggest fear is losing me, so that really puts a wrench in things, and I don't see him moving towards his own life which is what I really want him to do. So that leaves me in a nebulous. It seems the more I do what I need/want the more he feels neglected. So I find that difficult. I really wish he'd find some of his own interests etc. But he is stuck, and admits it. 

But all of that to say, it really does help to have him working towards becoming his own person again.


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> Yeah I agree. My H has been working hard at this, and it is making me see him in a new light. Only problem is I still feel like his biggest fear is losing me, so that really puts a wrench in things, and I don't see him moving towards his own life which is what I really want him to do. So that leaves me in a nebulous. It seems the more I do what I need/want the more he feels neglected. So I find that difficult. I really wish he'd find some of his own interests etc. But he is stuck, and admits it.
> 
> But all of that to say, it really does help to have him working towards becoming his own person again.


I think I'm in a different situation. My wife is still very much in a transitional phase of her life. She's been in wife/mom mode for all of our marriage. She's only "woken up" last year and realized there's a laundry list of things she feels she needs to accomplish. Which I'm honestly fine with. 

Me, I'm well on my way towards accomplishing what I also feel I need to do, not just for me, but for the family. Do you think I should really only be thinking about a life outside of this marriage? Like this is already done? It'll be just me with partial custody of the kids? That is seriously a terrible thought. However, life right now is not too far from that. We're not in a terrible state. But we're definitely not in a very happy place either. More like tolerating each other.


----------



## squid1035

Hello everyone.

It's been a while. Just checking in.

If you know the story, then I'll just say that we haven't really gotten anywhere since this started about 5 months ago. That is to say, my wife hasn't really gotten anywhere. This was confirmed a few days ago from a conversation we had following an episode of "Parenthood" that dealt with one of the couple's separation.

She straightforwardly told me that she’s just not sure of the future. She doesn’t want things to go back to how they were. She’s afraid that if she let’s me back in, things will revert back to the way it was before. She told me she can see how much I’m trying and how much she appreciates it. But she also sees how much I’m hurt by her distancing.

I don’t know what to do. I made an appointment for marriage counseling this Saturday. I asked if she’d be open to it following our conversation and she immediately said ‘yes’. But it really seems like this is entirely up to her. Maybe this is what she wants - more control over our relationship. 

A big negative factor in our marriage has been the presence of my mother. My mother can be very domineering. And she tries to exert her influence over not just me but how we try to conduct our affairs. This has all been talked about and I laid down the law to my mother a year ago. Banned her from our house, even. But even then, my wife holds on to that resentment. I don’t blame her one bit. 

And I’m not expecting her to just suddenly come around. I realize that it could take a while before she’s ready to let go. And I’m honestly fine with that. I guess I just need some reassurance that she’s going to find it in herself to want to make that commitment to working on us again. For now, she’s not ready. She says she’s been waiting for a sign to help nudge her in that direction. But just the other day as I was leaving, she sighed in exasperation, “I feel like I don’t want to be married any more”. Seems like a nail in the coffin to me.


----------



## Keenwa

Hey Squid, 

I haven't been on this forum in a long time. Sorry to hear you are not doing well. I am just trying to find my own happiness. We are still married and together (say it fast).. I don't feel like we have any kind of relationship beyond that of co-parents. I do care for him and like him but not as a partner. 

Hope you're doing ok.


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa said:


> Hey Squid,
> 
> I haven't been on this forum in a long time. Sorry to hear you are not doing well. I am just trying to find my own happiness. We are still married and together (say it fast).. I don't feel like we have any kind of relationship beyond that of co-parents. I do care for him and like him but not as a partner.
> 
> Hope you're doing ok.


Dear, Keenwa

Not doing so well, but thanks for asking. We're in MC right now. It's going ok. Haven't really gotten to the meat and potatoes of our issues, but I'm not very hopeful at the moment. The proverbial writing's on the wall, and it doesn't look good. Wife's kind of where you are. She speaks often of not wanting to go back to how things were and how I "lost" her already. She doesn't talk about divorce but when I ask if that's what she wants she says "that seems like where we're heading". She's talking about where the kid's will be on which holidays, my place or hers. She says she doesn't know what she wants and I ask if splitting up the family is her solution and she accuses me of calling her a bad person. 

What have I misconstrued? There is zero talk of hope for our marriage. And she says she very happy with herself.

Of course, I'm the one who got us into MC. She's only going because I want to. So I don't know how else to feel but hopeless and lost. I feel like I'm grieving. Pathetic and sad and I need to snap the f*** out of it.

You know things are bad when your happiest dreams only make you sad. I'm coining that phrase/lyric. Putting that in a song for sure.

Sorry for venting. But I need it. I'm going to go for some counseling for myself.

Peace.


----------



## jorgegene

Maybe when she realizes the finality of it she'll change her mind.

It almost sounds to me like she is just having one long case of the blah's or mid life and she's expressing it through constant complaints.

she's going to realize though at some point that the grass is not always greener out there and throwing away a long marriage unless it is unsufferable is RARELY the answer. She's got to realize almost always, it is better to stay in an 'ok' marriage, than risk everything on a bunch of 'maybe's'.

I don't want to give you any false hopes, because she may actually go through with leaving you, but I'm thinking that reality has not hit her, or will when its' too late?

Have you generally been a good husband? If so, then I think she's making a big mistake.

Still though, what you are doing is right.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst. Take care of you!


----------



## squid1035

Well, our therapist quit...or got fired. Not sure which. So wife doesn't want to go to MC any more. She was just getting comfortable with our therapist. Too awkward to try and start with someone new. I agree that it's really awkward. We were just starting to get into the deeper issues too.

I guess that's it. Events have conspired to tell us this thing is over. Stick a fork in us. 

Wow. Totally defeated... No hope.


----------



## sammy3

Squid, 

You're not alone... really wonder what it's all about, don't you? I've started to read the 'Divine Comedy' again... Maybe Dante will shed some light... 

-sammy


----------



## squid1035

sammy3 said:


> Squid,
> 
> You're not alone... really wonder what it's all about, don't you? I've started to read the 'Divine Comedy' again... Maybe Dante will shed some light...
> 
> -sammy


Is there an abridged version?


----------



## jorgegene

squid1035 said:


> Well, our therapist quit...or got fired. Not sure which. So wife doesn't want to go to MC any more. She was just getting comfortable with our therapist. Too awkward to try and start with someone new. I agree that it's really awkward. We were just starting to get into the deeper issues too.
> 
> I guess that's it. Events have conspired to tell us this thing is over. Stick a fork in us.
> 
> Wow. Totally defeated... No hope.


squid;

remember this: as long as there is no infidelity and no 'other man'
there IS hope!

As I said before, I think when she actually visualizes what is before her, that 'world beyond marriage', it will hit her hard.

But, as said before..........hope for the best, prepare for the worst.


----------



## squid1035

Here's where we're at right now...

She basically says she's content with being roommates, essentially, and co-parents. But I shouldn't expect anything from her, romantically. She's of course talking about sex. I'm not even thinking about that. I'd just like the possibility of love happening again. But she's emphatic about that door being totally shut right now. 

She'll consider going to IC but is very reticent about going to MC. She says she's fine now and that's it. As in, she's happy with herself and her decisions and let's not talk about it again.

She just wants to be alone. No men, no relationships.

When we talk about a separation, as in me leaving, there will be no restrictions. I can come by as often as I like to see the kids and she'd even like us to all spend as much time together as a "family" as possible.

She'd also like it if she and I could even spend time together...play some tennis and maybe go out to eat. But with no strings attached. She'll make no promises and tells me that I should have zero expectations. Total friend zone. 

There is no love on her side. Only on mine.

She said she's doesn't want to chance going through what we went through again.

So her heart is shut down. 

I know she's not okay because in MC when asked particular questions she became visibly upset. But she still insists everything is hunky-dory, and by the way, I don't love you any more.

There's nobody else...no suspicions of infidelity. 

Just unrequited love.

Thoughts?


----------



## Keenwa

Sorry Squid, 

I'm sure that is pretty disconcerting. I can relate. It's been a year since I dropped the bomb... that I wanted to separate. We are still together and while things are calm, I think it's mostly like a truce... feels like we are on a "time out". I've come to realize that he is who he is, and he is not changing... so I have two choices, stay or don't stay. It is heart wrenching to be on the side of the one who seems ambivalent when your partner is wanting to be "in love" and feel all the things you felt before and unless you lie to yourself, you just don't feel them. It makes you wonder what is wrong with you and why you would want to walk away from a good person. 

My H is a good person, a honest to goodness kind person. I've read the posts from people who make comments like "get over yourself", "stop being selfish" etc... but I really have to question what kind of life one is living if it is not true to how you feel? 

The one thing that I read into your posts, is that your wife and you have great communication, as hard as it can be to hear sometimes, the truth always helps move us forward, even if it's a truth that sucks the wazoo for us. 

I guess that's the advantage to all this counselling. We learn to be more honest. It sounds like she's telling you she's done with the relationship but isn't able to actually say it out forthright. It would be interesting to know what would happen if you said you were leaving. I kind of feel like I"m there and feeling like I'm not really sure why he even wants to be with me anymore, but I don't have the energy or the gumption right now to say "see ya later ". 






squid1035 said:


> Here's where we're at right now...
> 
> She basically says she's content with being roommates, essentially, and co-parents. But I shouldn't expect anything from her, romantically. She's of course talking about sex. I'm not even thinking about that. I'd just like the possibility of love happening again. But she's emphatic about that door being totally shut right now.
> 
> She'll consider going to IC but is very reticent about going to MC. She says she's fine now and that's it. As in, she's happy with herself and her decisions and let's not talk about it again.
> 
> She just wants to be alone. No men, no relationships.
> 
> When we talk about a separation, as in me leaving, there will be no restrictions. I can come by as often as I like to see the kids and she'd even like us to all spend as much time together as a "family" as possible.
> 
> She'd also like it if she and I could even spend time together...play some tennis and maybe go out to eat. But with no strings attached. She'll make no promises and tells me that I should have zero expectations. Total friend zone.
> 
> There is no love on her side. Only on mine.
> 
> She said she's doesn't want to chance going through what we went through again.
> 
> So her heart is shut down.
> 
> I know she's not okay because in MC when asked particular questions she became visibly upset. But she still insists everything is hunky-dory, and by the way, I don't love you any more.
> 
> There's nobody else...no suspicions of infidelity.
> 
> Just unrequited love.
> 
> Thoughts?


----------



## LongWalk

Can you check cell phone history to see if she is calling some guy?

Given the her complete emotional detachment, there are two routes:

1) Bagdon
Stay at home but work on self. Gym, work, parenting. End neediness. Be happy. Let your new self confidence attract her back. Not easy but has been done. PM Bagdon after reading his thread.

2) Separate 
Do all the same self improvement stuff but detach and start new life.

You could do a 180 at home to prepare for separation. It might also jolt your wife into reconsidering but frankly she is not attracted to you anymore.


----------



## MyTurn

SQ,
I think it's time to give her what she wants,her freedom.Tell her that you love her very much but you can not keep living in limbo.
You are her husband ,her lover and her friend.You are never going to be- just her friend!

You did your part to save your M, but she has to be willing to do hers and meet you half way.She's not, so it's time to move on with your life.File for D.

Do the 180 .show her how it will be from now on.No more "us",just you and your kids.Communication only about kids and D.

Start living life without her,take charge of "YOU" and your kids 50% of the time.


----------



## sammy3

squid1035 said:


> Is there an abridged version?


Lololo....I am painfully going thur page by page of hell and back.... Slowly....painfully...((lolo))

~sammy


----------



## squid1035

LongWalk said:


> Can you check cell phone history to see if she is calling some guy?
> 
> Given the her complete emotional detachment, there are two routes:
> 
> 1) Bagdon
> Stay at home but work on self. Gym, work, parenting. End neediness. Be happy. Let your new self confidence attract her back. Not easy but has been done. PM Bagdon after reading his thread.
> .


I read through bagdon's thread. It was encouraging. 

However, when I met my wife I was really obese...pushing 230 and I'm only 5'6". And I got heavier still, almost 260. But around 2010 I dropped down to 165 and have managed to maintain a decent weight.

I'm a P90X and Insanity grad too.

My wife mentioned to me recently that since I lost all the weight and started being fit I stopped noticing her. I didn't realize that had happened at all. 

Also, when I started growing my hair recently my wife asked why. I told her that I was trying to make my self more like when she met me...more attractive. She said, "Is that why you think I changed? That's got nothing to do with it. You were way heavier when I met you and that didn't matter to me at all. I just don't want to feel alone in this marriage anymore."

I had no idea this was how she felt. Yeah, I enjoyed the new flirtations I was getting from ladies, but I never thought to act upon them. I've only had my wife in my heart. Not trying to put myself over as some perfect husband either.

But I like the 180. I know I've been needy and mopey lately. I've got to turn that around. No pun intended.


----------



## squid1035

So to be clear, the 180 plan is not the same as the Mindful Action Plan. Right?

Re: bagdon's thread, I understand working on myself, making myself more attractive. Do I continue to try and schedule date nights with my wife?

:scratchhead:


----------



## squid1035

I went to MC alone this evening after work. I explained that my W was uncomfortable attending because of the abrupt departure of our previous MC and how awkward it was for her to start again with someone new after we'd built a nice rapport. And I am honestly on the same page as my wife.

So the session was ok. Just a rehashing of the same topics and issues just to re-establish what's happening. The MC encouraged that we just try and hang out and purely just be friends...no expectations and no strings attached...no pressure. Don't call it a date. Just call it a hang-out. Which I'm honestly fine with that.

I just want to feel the closeness again. Because right now there's an enormous distance between us.

Anyoo, I came home and walked into our bedroom and my wife is on Skype talking to her brother and the topic of conversation was me. All I heard was her brother say, "What? (me) said that??" And then I left.  No idea what was being said.

Afterwards, I went into our office and then out of the blue my wife asks me if I'd like to join her and do some quick yoga with her, just 10 minutes. Of course, I obliged. I enjoy spending time with her and it's a rarity that she invite me to do anything with her lately. 

She asked me how the session went. I said it was just ok. I didn't tell her that it was really an MC and not so much an IC, which she might have though it was.

I'm not trying to read too much into the gesture. But it was an unexpected reaching out to me.

That's all.


----------



## bagdon

Squid, I read your story. The 180 will work; If you do it in the spirit of love it will last a pretty descent amount of time. You're still going to have life's peaks and lows. Like your title, this will be seen as a 'rough patch.'

I totally relate to what you've been feeling. You articulate it very well on here. Love your wife without fear of losing her and your family. (BTW your children are all keenly aware of the disconnect between you and your wife and are certainly having discussions amongst themselves about it)

Again, LOVE YOUR WIFE without fear of losing her and your family. Easier said than done and will take time and daily personal attitude checks. This situation is an enormous time of testing of what you believe and what example you will display to your wife and children. It's time to grow Squid. (in more ways than one)

I'm in yet another transitional period of personal spiritual growth and insight and I've come to find that my marriage situation all boils down to faith. What kind of faith do you have? Worldly Faith or Godly Faith?


----------



## squid1035

bagdon said:


> I'm in yet another transitional period of personal spiritual growth and insight and I've come to find that my marriage situation all boils down to faith. What kind of faith do you have? Worldly Faith or Godly Faith?


Thanks, bagdon.

As for faith...Well, we're a catholic family. I won't say I'm a very religious person, however. We attend mass every week and try to observe holy days of obligation. I just recently went to confession for the first time in decades.

I'm reading through NMMNG right now. It's a pretty spot-on depiction of how I go through life. Very eye-opening.

I like your advice of just loving without fear. I know that's where I'm at now and it's preventing me from showing any love at all. I'm stuck in trying to protect my own feelings that I can't find a way to reach out to my wife. And she's in the same place too...An emotional stalemate. 

Now's my time to step up, no matter the consequences.

I like the feeling of empowerment...of taking my destiny in my own hands. I think we were going through the routines of being married and raising kids that we lost sight of our own needs and what they even were.


----------



## bagdon

squid1035 said:


> Thanks, bagdon.
> 
> As for faith...Well, we're a catholic family. I won't say I'm a very religious person, however. We attend mass every week and try to observe holy days of obligation. I just recently went to confession for the first time in decades.
> 
> I'm reading through NMMNG right now. It's a pretty spot-on depiction of how I go through life. Very eye-opening.
> 
> I like your advice of just loving without fear. I know that's where I'm at now and it's preventing me from showing any love at all. I'm stuck in trying to protect my own feelings that I can't find a way to reach out to my wife. And she's in the same place too...An emotional stalemate.
> 
> Now's my time to step up, no matter the consequences.
> 
> I like the feeling of empowerment...of taking my destiny in my own hands. I think we were going through the routines of being married and raising kids that we lost sight of our own needs and what they even were.


Man. You are really good at describing your perceptions. Okay, sounds like worldly faith; no prob...Both work in varying degrees. My journey has evolved from worldly to Godly faith. 
Squid, whatever you do has got to be real, meaning, make a decision to follow through on your 'actions' based on authentic principles that you believe in. 
The principle of Loving your wife should have nothing to do with how, when or even if she reciprocates your love. 

This principle will help you eliminate the fear. You can only control your actions. Accept the 'fact' that she no longer loves you.(I know how painful that is) What she decides to do is not your responsibility. You've got to decide to live by the principle of love to and for your WIFE. Your WIFE; not girlfriend; not fiance'... the mother of your children. Once that principle is real inside of you, all the self improvement techniques, 180's etc.... Will take you to a place of fulfillment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bagdon

"If equal affection cannot be, let the more loving one be me."

The above quote is a mantra I sometimes think on when things start feeling 'rough patchy' in my marriage. NMMNG & MMSLP are two very good 'worldly' books that are affective (to a degree) when you are disciplined to many of the principles they teach.

Worldly principles are easier than spiritual (Godly) principles as worldly principles deal with the flesh or natural senses...not the spirit. I believe everyone's spirit is connected to God weather they believe in God or not...that's what I believe.

Interesting enough, many of the worldly principles run parallel to Godly principles, just without the faith that God requires for us to receive His promises of good success and prosperity. So, I said all that to say that the above quote is based off of Godly Faith. God's principles are based in love, not rules. Godly Faith is a gift from God...it can't be earned or 'will powered' into our spirits. In deeper ways it runs contrary to what worldly or natural wisdom teaches us.

I'm not familiar with catholic ceremony of marriage covenant vows, however, I think the covenant vows of marriage that you and your wife took should be used to help you. The covenant vows we men take hold us ultimately responsible for the well being of our marriages. Not our wives....

Squid, I sincerely pray for the reconciliation of your marriage and reconnect of love between you and your wife. 

One other TAM member that helped me tremendously is Amplexor. His story exemplifies the unconditional love of a husband to his wife.


----------



## squid1035

bagdon,

I guess what I'm a little confused about is that the 180 plan kind of seems contrary to your above quote of showing more love. Am I misinterpreting the 180? Instructions like not scheduling dates and not doting and being scarce on talk seem a little counter-productive. 

I understand their intent with regard to trying to move on and becoming more independent. But....do you understand my confusion?

With regard to dates, MC encouraged me to just strive to hang out more with my wife as just friends....no expectation...no stings attached. Don't call them dates. Call them hang-outs. The term "dates" implies romance. 

Should I plan hang-outs at all? I guess I need to re-read your thread more thoroughly.


----------



## bagdon

squid1035 said:


> bagdon,
> 
> I guess what I'm a little confused about is that the 180 plan kind of seems contrary to your above quote of showing more love. Am I misinterpreting the 180? Instructions like not scheduling dates and not doting and being scarce on talk seem a little counter-productive.
> 
> I understand their intent with regard to trying to move on and becoming more independent. But....do you understand my confusion?
> 
> With regard to dates, MC encouraged me to just strive to hang out more with my wife as just friends....no expectation...no stings attached. Don't call them dates. Call them hang-outs. The term "dates" implies romance.
> 
> Should I plan hang-outs at all? I guess I need to re-read your thread more thoroughly.


I would recommend you follow the 180 in a manner that fits where you two are. Do the 'hang outs'. (ie invite her to things you are doing; weather she chooses to participate or not is up to her) 

The principle of love will keep you from hardening your heart as you take care of yourself and your family. You must not let her be the center of your world, but, as her husband you can't leave her out of your world. (She's your wife, not a girlfriend)

Give her an opportunity to share your world. Leave the door open for her to walk in on her own if she chooses; get it?Your attitude should reflect being 'okay' with whatever way she chooses to go; you can handle it. You've accepted the fact that she doesn't love you. Right? (BTW love is something we all must choose to do; takes intention and effort...she'll have to decide to love you on her own; she may not but we hope she will)

I said LOVE your wife... not show more love to your wife. It's an attitude. A way of being. A resolved constitution that you've chosen by faith through your vows to follow. A strength that benefits you and your family. She's already violated her vows by acting in a way that separates the covenant of marriage. Sadly, it's one of the few recourses most wives/WAWs take that jolt us husbands awake to the reality of neglected marriages. (didn't say it was right)

So yeah man, study the books and continue the counseling for as long as you need to; strengthen your spiritual relationship through prayer and meditation. Take care of yourself and your family. I pray God enlightens you even more through this trial.


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## jld

bagdon said:


> The covenant vows we men take hold us ultimately responsible for the well being of our marriages. Not our wives....


This is how dh and I see it as well, that the husband is responsible for the marriage.


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## squid1035

jld said:


> This is how dh and I see it as well, that the husband is responsible for the marriage.


I can get on board with this idea. And I'm willing to weather the proverbial storm. I'm beginning to accept the notion of moving on without her. 

We had some weird turns just this evening. We were out to dinner with the kids and in the middle of dinner, without any prompting, my wife asked me if I was going to MC next week. I said yes, assuming that I was going alone again. She then said she'd try to catch up and try to join. Which was a genuine surprise.

But then, I told her that I'd invited my mom's sisters over for Easter Sunday. I didn't think it a problem since I know she likes them and she'd already made the surprising gesture of inviting my mother over first - a big step if you've read my story.

At first she was uneasy, saying that she wished I asked her first. 

"Please, baby steps." She said.

Then she quickly became very agitated and said, "See, you're making decisions without me again." She was practically red with anger. I took her aside and said that I honestly didn't realize it would be such an issue and offered my sincerest apology. We didn't speak a word for the rest of the night as the kids played and watched tv amongst us.

I didn't feel that belaboring an apology would do any good.

I know she's very fragile. I can barely speak a word to her without fear of setting her off. It's so tenuous of a balance.

I try not to dote and follow her around. I refrain from starting conversation too. But I feel like she resents me for my silence.

So that's my dilemma. If I talk, I risk pushing her buttons. If I remain distant, I'm resented for it.


----------



## jld

squid1035 said:


> Then she quickly became very agitated and said, "See, you're making decisions without me again." She was practically red with anger. I took her aside and said that I honestly didn't realize it would be such an issue and offered my sincerest apology. We didn't speak a word for the rest of the night as the kids played and watched tv amongst us.
> 
> I didn't feel that belaboring an apology would do any good.
> 
> I know she's very fragile. I can barely speak a word to her without fear of setting her off. It's so tenuous of a balance.
> 
> I try not to dote and follow her around. I refrain from starting conversation too. But I feel like she resents me for my silence.
> 
> So that's my dilemma. If I talk, I risk pushing her buttons. If I remain distant, I'm resented for it.


Squid, I haven't read your whole thread. I will try to soon.

How about offering to cancel the holiday with your sisters? Yes, it would be embarrassing, but since you did not have your wife's consent, it would be the respectful thing to do, to at least offer to her. That way she doesn't feel the control has been taken from her. She doesn't have to feel trapped.

I am sorry you did not end up talking last night. How painful. I usually can't go very long without talking to dh when I am upset. Maybe 15 minutes, or even an hour if I am really mad. A whole evening. How uncomfortable.

Do you do active listening? That is so helpful, squid. Just listening to her, and then repeating back to her what she says. Just really trying to hear her heart speak, just really caring what is deep in her heart.

I know, I have not read your whole thread, but if you can be kind and gentle with her, really trying to understand her and make her feel loved, that surely would relax her and make your relationship more comfortable.


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## bagdon

Weather the storm. Sounds like your wife is waiting and watching. Consistency is extreamly important from now on; not perfection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagdon

Follow the 180; adjust to your situation. You know the variables better than us.
You may want to move this thread to general discussion for more input from other TAMers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squid1035

Happy Easter, everyone.


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## alte Dame

Happy Easter, squid.

I hope things are improving in your home.


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## jld

squid1035 said:


> I'm too stubborn for my own good. I think as men we're often cornered and controlled by our own stupid pride


Squid, I just started reading your thread, but let me tell you, just from your being able to admit the above, I have great hope for you. 

Men are the key to marriage. A man who is committed to meeting his wife's needs, who does not take her for granted, and who is painfully honest with himself about his own shortcomings, can solve all kinds of problems.

I look forward to reading more.


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## WaverlyHanson

Hello all: Reading your stories and appreciating your openness about how you are feeling on this forum. 

After working with hundreds of couples over the years, I can say with lots of confidence that feelings can change relatively quickly as people are willing to begin making even small changes. I've seen many couples who come for help as a last resort, even though at least one of them had already seen a divorce lawyer.

One helpful question to each ask yourselves is "What one thing was I doing different when things were better between us?" Then, obviously start doing it again without a big fanfare!

When couples first come to me, I always say, "Don't worry about your feelings right now. They come and go and change numerous times within a day sometimes. Not a guide to making good decisions." As we begin those small changes with love and commitment, over time feelings gradually begin to change."

Many people don't allow themselves to have hope or positive feelings because they are so guarded and protective of themselves due to past hurts.....but those can be healed. (Actually if they are not healed in the present relationship, they normally go with you to the next relationship because of "unfinished business" you are carrying. )

More than once as I have worked with couples in their 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriage where their pride is at stake about having yet another divorce, they will say "If I had listened and learned in my first marriage like I am now, we could have made it work."

Don't give up hope! WaverlyHanson


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## jld

squid1035 said:


> I would love to let her read my posts. But I'm worried it might bring back bad memories and feelings. What do you think about that? That question goes out to anyone reading this.


I think it is a great idea. Transparency. It is what builds trust.

Unless there is a real threat, like beating or killing or absconding with money, I think there should be transparency in marriage. Why hiding? Transparency allows us to show our spouses who we are, and for us to know them, the real them.


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## jld

Squid, have you tried the Marriage Builders site, too? They talk about doing something like really loving for spouse for a certain period of time, and then separating if it does not start showing some results.

Bagdon's way, of just committing to your wife regardless of what she does for you, may be even better.

I am sorry I don't have any other advice for you. I really feel sorry for you and your wife, and what your marriage is going through. I hope she is able to go to MC with you. And I do think it is a hopeful sign that she is offering to go.

I will keep following your thread.


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## bagdon

Squid, Look at: When to Leave a 'Good Man' posted by Past40 in general relationship discussion.

I think your wife may be similar to this woman. (mine is very similar) I believe it will be beneficial if we can gather a general impression of what may be going on with our wives' thought processes, emotional & physical needs. You'll see how Past40's comments about her life and husband line up with highlights discussed in MMSLP and NMMNG.

Don't let past mistakes in your marriage distract you from becoming a better man/husband. Forgive yourself and move forward.


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## squid1035

Thanks for all of the replies, everyone.

bagdon, I read Past40's thread. I see a lot of similarities and I might very well be depressed and it may have affected our relationship. But there really is no getting around the in-law issue.

We had a small Easter gathering at our house - just our family and my mother (the in-law in question). It as a quiet affair, not a ton of talking. My mother knows of our problems and I've even brought up the specifics with her and the longstanding resentment my wife has for her.

Eventually my wife slid away to the office to work on her schoolwork which I know was just an excuse to be away from the presence of my mother. It was my wife who invited my mother to the gathering, by the way.

So that is really the crux: my wife's resentment and her inability so see past it and forgive. This has affected every decision and emotion she's had for quite some time. 

And you can talk my ear off about how I needed to honor her more and defend her. I know this. And I've apologized ad infinitum ad nauseum and meant every single word of it. And I've made it known to my mother that I've drawn the boundaries and that she must respect them. She's finally getting the message but still thinks she's never done anything wrong. 

As for our physical intimacy... Well, it's nil at the moment. But just before she bottomed out, we were very active. And it wasn't just me initiating. There were many mornings when she'd give me a tell-tale nudge and a wink. Or on a random afternoon, she'd silently signal me to the bedroom with a grin. Of course, I was always the frisky one but sometimes she'd be tired and I would politely acquiesce. 

Really, it's an emotional disconnect stemming from an emotional pain she's going through. Until she's willing to try and resolve it, I can't do much but just be there for her and continue to improve myself in a way that will help her to see me as someone that she can feel safe with again. We've lost that for now.


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## jld

Squid, have you tried active listening?


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## squid1035

jld said:


> Squid, have you tried active listening?


Please expound....


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## jld

squid1035 said:


> Please expound....


Well, just very simply, it is repeating back to a person what they said, really trying to understand them. You can also paraphrase. 

The idea is to sincerely listen and seek to hear what might be underlying their words. 

You are trying to get to the heart of the matter. When you can see the root of the problem, you are halfway there to solving it.


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## squid1035

jld said:


> Well, just very simply, it is repeating back to a person what they said, really trying to understand them. You can also paraphrase.
> 
> The idea is to sincerely listen and seek to hear what might be underlying their words.
> 
> You are trying to get to the heart of the matter. When you can see the root of the problem, you are halfway there to solving it.


I like the idea. We had a conversation the other night about a bad experience that she had with my mother 10 years ago. She was really pressing me very hard as to what I was thinking back then while she was arguing with my mother. Why didn't I say something back then? Why didn't I intervene? When she asked me I didn't really have a clear answer. None that would really satisfy her, anyway. And I know that probably made my her more frustrated. I've been thinking pretty hard about it and I want to talk to her and really let hear my thoughts about what happened that day. 

I like this quote in your reply:

_"One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax."_ 

Anyway, I searched for a copy of that book. I'm going to give it a good read after I finish NMMNG.

I've got MC tonight. W can't go because of after school errand running. But she says she wishes she could attend. It was kind a last minute choice. So I'll go alone and hopefully reschedule at a time that's more convenient. Tonight I'll focus the discussion on me and my issues. I know I have a lot.


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## jld

It sounds like she was really hurt, squid. 

I would really encourage you to use active listening, just really let her pour her heart out to you about how she felt about your not intervening with her and your mother. And apologize, sincerely. And realize it is your responsibility to see that your mother treats your wife with respect and courtesy. It will be good for your mother, too. 

And my signature is advice that few men can stand to take. They think they know it all already. 

But if they could listen and learn, especially by reading The Way of the Superior Man, they could turn their marriages around.


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## magnoliagal

jld said:


> It sounds like she was really hurt, squid.
> 
> I would really encourage you to use active listening, just really let her pour her heart out to you about how she felt about your not intervening with her and your mother. And apologize, sincerely. And realize it is your responsibility to see that your mother treats your wife with respect and courtesy. It will be good for your mother, too.
> 
> And my signature is advice that few men can stand to take. They think they know it all already.
> 
> But if they could listen and learn, especially by reading The Way of the Superior Man, they could turn their marriages around.


We speak much of men's behavior and responsibilities on this board. What falls on women? Is it merely to point out what men should be doing better? We seem to have that part down.


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## squid1035

jld said:


> It sounds like she was really hurt, squid.
> 
> I would really encourage you to use active listening, just really let her pour her heart out to you about how she felt about your not intervening with her and your mother. And apologize, sincerely. And realize it is your responsibility to see that your mother treats your wife with respect and courtesy. It will be good for your mother, too.
> 
> And my signature is advice that few men can stand to take. They think they know it all already.
> 
> But if they could listen and learn, especially by reading The Way of the Superior Man, they could turn their marriages around.


I'm seriously trying to learn to be that kind of man for my wife.

Thank you.


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## jld

squid1035 said:


> I'm seriously trying to learn to be that kind of man for my wife.
> 
> Thank you.


You will succeed.


----------



## squid1035

magnoliagal said:


> We speak much of men's behavior and responsibilities on this board. What falls on women? Is it merely to point out what men should be doing better? We seem to have that part down.


Not quite sure what you meant by that.

Please, jump right in.


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## squid1035

jld said:


> You will succeed.


Thank you. I appreciate (and need) the encouragement.


----------



## Nix

"So that is really the crux: my wife's resentment and her inability so see past it and forgive. This has affected every decision and emotion she's had for quite some time. "

Last year I was going through the hell of what seemed, at the time, to be the sudden, whirlwind destruction of my 10 year relationship. With the passage of time, counseling, 12-step groups to address my codependency and the beginning of a new relationship in which I am very happy (and much healthier!), I now understand that resentment - first from her, and then as more and more things happened, also from me - killed my first "marriage" (same sex, no legal paperwork ever done) over a period of 8 years. 

Resentment is to relationships what terminal cancer is to the flesh. I am not exaggerating when I say that.


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## squid1035

Nix said:


> Resentment is to relationships what terminal cancer is to the flesh. I am not exaggerating when I say that.


Nix,

Thanks. I'm beginning to understand this. I read your thread a while back. I'm glad that you found happiness after that dark time. I'm not expecting much but I'm hoping we can get past this and go on to be more communicative partners for each other.

But it's baby steps for sure.


----------



## squid1035

WaverlyHanson said:


> When couples first come to me, I always say, "Don't worry about your feelings right now. They come and go and change numerous times within a day sometimes. Not a guide to making good decisions." As we begin those small changes with love and commitment, over time feelings gradually begin to change."
> 
> Many people don't allow themselves to have hope or positive feelings because they are so guarded and protective of themselves due to past hurts.....but those can be healed. (Actually if they are not healed in the present relationship, they normally go with you to the next relationship because of "unfinished business" you are carrying. )
> 
> More than once as I have worked with couples in their 2nd, 3rd or 4th marriage where their pride is at stake about having yet another divorce, they will say "If I had listened and learned in my first marriage like I am now, we could have made it work."
> 
> Don't give up hope! WaverlyHanson


WaverlyHanson,

Do you often encounter the hurt spouse pretty much having given up on the thought of the marriage forever only to have them, in time, come back to it again?

We had a good talk this evening after my MC and I told W what we talked about in our session. Pretty much everything I've shared here.

She said she doesn't see me the way she used to any more. She says it's changed. She admits she's very guarded. And that perhaps she may never let her guard down with me.

I told her I'm not trying to force her to do anything that she doesn't want to do but that I'm trying to learn and become a better person and the partner that she needs. I hope that some day she can at least feel safe with me again.

She simply said, "time. it's going to take time." Now me, being eager and neurotic and needing to know what she meant but not wanting to put her in the spot of hurting my feelings, wanted to know if she meant, is it going to take time for her to trust me again and that she's open to the idea of being a couple again? Or was that just a general statement about us just being friends again? 

I know she's not ready to make any promises right now. The hurt is still too vivid. It's right below the surface. 

Ugh...


----------



## jld

Squid, you have a good heart. I know you want to do the right thing. I hear that in your posts.

I hope you can get The Way of the Superior Man soon. It is such a fine book.

Did you think about using active listening tonight when your wife mentioned needing time? Just repeating that back to her, and waiting, patiently, for her response?

Do you know the things that make her feel loved?

Earning back trust takes time. And transparency builds trust.

Just some ideas for now. And know that your efforts are recognized. I hope you will feel some progress made soon.


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> Squid, you have a good heart. I know you want to do the right thing. I hear that in your posts.
> 
> I hope you can get The Way of the Superior Man soon. It is such a fine book.
> 
> Did you think about using active listening tonight when your wife mentioned needing time? Just repeating that back to her, and waiting, patiently, for her response?
> 
> Do you know the things that make her feel loved?
> 
> Earning back trust takes time. And transparency builds trust.
> 
> Just some ideas for now. And know that your efforts are recognized. I hope you will feel some progress made soon.


I'll try that. I didn't really think about it last night. So simply repeating back what she's saying. Do I pry any further with leading questions? Or should I let her lead the conversation?


----------



## jld

squid1035 said:


> I'll try that. I didn't really think about it last night. So simply repeating back what she's saying. Do I pry any further with leading questions? Or should I let her lead the conversation?


The simplest way to do it is to just repeat back what she is saying. Dh does this with me, and I do it with my kids, and it works fine. Other people have said they have more success when they paraphrase. It is whatever works for you. 

You can also google it. There are some pretty detailed descriptions out there, I think.

The main thing is to show sincere interest. You are really trying to understand her, to reach her heart. She won't share it unless she feels safe, though. That is why genuinely trying to figure out where you went wrong, and humbly asking her where you went wrong, and how you might correct it, can be so helpful.

The point is not to win, or to control, but to truly love and understand. "Love covers a multitude of sins."


----------



## squid1035

I've been vacillating between a pretty wide range of emotions lately...from hopeful to angst-ridden to the darkest pit of grief. It's so exhausting. Can't sleep. Drinking more than I'd like to even admit. Ugly. 

I've been really analyzing myself as a husband and a person and I don't like what I'm discovering about myself. I'm grumpy, bitter, insecure, afraid, indecisive...happy is really only a face I put on just to make everyone think I'm normal and well-adjusted.

I've been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I'm really bothered that I'm that guy...Covert contracts, giving only to get, fixing, giving only what I want to give...not what needs to be given. What a selfish d*** I am. 

I know this sounds like good ol' fashioned self hatred, but I'm looking at myself the way my wife must see me now, after the magical spell of love wore off....what she put up with for the last 14 years. How can I blame her for her feelings now?

I'm not asking for pity. Really, I'm not. I just need to vent this to the internet universe...as catharsis.

We had a chat last night about what we're going to say to the kids. I know they know that something is amiss in our household between their parents and I thought it important that we address it to them together, as a team, to at least reassure them that we still love them very much and that we're trying to work this out. Sort of. Wife reiterated that even though it's not the arrangement that I was hoping for, we're still a family even if she and I are no longer together. 

The door's still pretty much shut...for now, at least. 

She talked of how bad she feels seeing me feeling so neglected and deliberately kept at arm's length by her. "Now you know how I felt," She said. 

So much hurt. So much resentment. I feel like there's just no coming back from that. Like maybe it's just best to let go.

Sorry, guys. Not a happy post, I know. Lack of sleep puts my mind in a dark place.

She's going home in June, finally, after 13 years. That had always been a big dream for us, to go back and re-visit the place where we met and fell in love and started our family. And, after a bit of string pulling, there's the strong likelihood that I can go back with her, for a week or so and then come back before her while she stays for another week. And she expressed that she'd like me to go. But I'm not sure if I want to. It'd be too bittersweet for me and I'm worried that my presence would only detract from her much-needed family time...to have to be concerned with me, Mr. Deadweight. 

That place holds so many beautiful memories for us. To go back now, together, in the emotional place that we are both in might be too much. For me, at least. To have to put on brave face to all of our family and friends that think we're still a happy couple in love about to celebrate our 15th anniversary...yeah, right.


----------



## bagdon

squid1035 said:


> I've been vacillating between a pretty wide range of emotions lately...from hopeful to angst-ridden to the darkest pit of grief. It's so exhausting. Can't sleep. Drinking more than I'd like to even admit. Ugly.
> 
> I've been really analyzing myself as a husband and a person and I don't like what I'm discovering about myself. I'm grumpy, bitter, insecure, afraid, indecisive...happy is really only a face I put on just to make everyone think I'm normal and well-adjusted.
> 
> I've been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I'm really bothered that I'm that guy...Covert contracts, giving only to get, fixing, giving only what I want to give...not what needs to be given. What a selfish d*** I am.
> 
> I know this sounds like good ol' fashioned self hatred, but I'm looking at myself the way my wife must see me now, after the magical spell of love wore off....what she put up with for the last 14 years. How can I blame her for her feelings now?
> 
> I'm not asking for pity. Really, I'm not. I just need to vent this to the internet universe...as catharsis.
> 
> We had a chat last night about what we're going to say to the kids. I know they know that something is amiss in our household between their parents and I thought it important that we address it to them together, as a team, to at least reassure them that we still love them very much and that we're trying to work this out. Sort of. Wife reiterated that even though it's not the arrangement that I was hoping for, we're still a family even if she and I are no longer together.
> 
> The door's still pretty much shut...for now, at least.
> 
> She talked of how bad she feels seeing me feeling so neglected and deliberately kept at arm's length by her. "Now you know how I felt," She said.
> 
> So much hurt. So much resentment. I feel like there's just no coming back from that. Like maybe it's just best to let go.
> 
> Sorry, guys. Not a happy post, I know. Lack of sleep puts my mind in a dark place.
> 
> She's going home in June, finally, after 13 years. That had always been a big dream for us, to go back and re-visit the place where we met and fell in love and started our family. And, after a bit of string pulling, there's the strong likelihood that I can go back with her, for a week or so and then come back before her while she stays for another week. And she expressed that she'd like me to go. But I'm not sure if I want to. It'd be too bittersweet for me and I'm worried that my presence would only detract from her much-needed family time...to have to be concerned with me, Mr. Deadweight.
> 
> That place holds so many beautiful memories for us. To go back now, together, in the emotional place that we are both in might be too much. For me, at least. To have to put on brave face to all of our family and friends that think we're still a happy couple in love about to celebrate our 15th anniversary...yeah, right.


"Your on the right road, Bagdon. There are points in our lives when we exam where we are and where we're headed. It is positive when you recognize a course correction is needed and you make that change. Do not let regret stop your journey. 

Do you exercise? It can help control the stress and keep your mind clearer. 

BTW, You should read some of the marriage and relationship books, now that you finished NMMNG. 
My eye opener was "His Needs, Her Needs" or the one Thor recommended, "The Five Love Languages". They are fast reads. 

Once you start these changes, your W is going to notice and question them. If confronted, I just let her know your not happy about the way things are going and you want improvement. You might invite her to join you. Whatever her answer, let her know you will be making changes. Remember, she doesn't trust you to be a good partner, don't let that stop you either. This is not about her, it's about you becoming a better man."

Squid, the above quote is very helpful advice I received from my good friend anchorwatch; I think it matches you as well. I suggest you PM anchorwatch for good sound advice through your journey.

I'm happy for you man. Your life is on it's way to great positive change.


----------



## jld

squid1035 said:


> I've been vacillating between a pretty wide range of emotions lately...from hopeful to angst-ridden to the darkest pit of grief. It's so exhausting. Can't sleep. Drinking more than I'd like to even admit. Ugly.
> 
> I've been really analyzing myself as a husband and a person and I don't like what I'm discovering about myself. I'm grumpy, bitter, insecure, afraid, indecisive...happy is really only a face I put on just to make everyone think I'm normal and well-adjusted.
> 
> I've been reading No More Mr. Nice Guy and I'm really bothered that I'm that guy...Covert contracts, giving only to get, fixing, giving only what I want to give...not what needs to be given. What a selfish d*** I am.
> 
> I know this sounds like good ol' fashioned self hatred, but I'm looking at myself the way my wife must see me now, after the magical spell of love wore off....what she put up with for the last 14 years. How can I blame her for her feelings now?
> 
> I'm not asking for pity. Really, I'm not. I just need to vent this to the internet universe...as catharsis.


Squid, this is the kind of honesty and self awareness that is going to totally change your life for the better. I actually think your post is one of the most encouraging I have read on TAM in a while. 

Do you realize how brave you are to be honest with yourself? To be gut level, arrogance-free honest?

The kind of honesty I see in your post changes lives and transforms marriages. You are doing great, squid. 

Keep being transparent with yourself, and with your wife. You are not taking the easy road. You are taking the hard road, but it is the one that leads most quickly to healing.

I am so impressed, squid. Truly impressed. You are a quality man.

Now put the alcohol away, okay? You don't need it.


----------



## jld

Lol, bagdon. We see squid the same way! A great man in the making! Go, squid!


----------



## squid1035

Thanks, bagdon and jld.

It's a bitter pill to swallow. I'm on chapter 5 now in NMMNG and they just talked about surrendering. I think I'm at that point now. So worried though, about just letting her go. But I cannot control her and how she feels about me. But I can focus on me and improve myself.

Still trying to think of who my "safe person" can be. Might be a little too personal for this thread. Although I can't think of much more that I haven't shared already here.

As for self-medicating...yeah, it's a concern. I've always been kind of a partier. But I see myself turning to drink as a means of coping. It's unhealthy and I'm trying to really slow it down. It's just another in a laundry list of issues and coping mechanisms I'm trying to shed.

Ironically, I'm really into working out. As I said earlier, I've lost a bunch of weight and have managed to maintain a relatively normal weight. I guess that's how I rationalize the drinking aspect. I work out hard every day so why not have a drink? Dumb. I'm not at all a 6-pack a day kind of drinker. But I do find myself looking for a beer or glass of wine at the end of each day, especially lately.

Perhaps I share too much here.


----------



## bagdon

squid1035 said:


> Thanks, bagdon and jld.
> 
> It's a bitter pill to swallow. I'm on chapter 5 now in NMMNG and they just talked about surrendering. I think I'm at that point now. So worried though, about just letting her go. But I cannot control her and how she feels about me. But I can focus on me and improve myself.


That's normal. You're afraid to step out of your comfort zone. You're conformable in your life, as bad as it is because you know how to exist there. It's amazing what crappy treatment we will put up with, not to face the unknown. 

Be assured, there are others here and at the other site that will walk along with you. 

Now YOU are going to rock the boat, not her. The difference is you will be prepared for the swell. 

Continue your reading.... 

Yet another quote from Anchorwatch that helped me...


----------



## jld

I think it is great that you share here. The more transparency you have, especially with yourself, the more you can grow.

We hurt ourselves and limit our growth by lying and hiding.

You have to be willing to let her go. What if she died in a car accident today? You would be forced to go on alone. You would survive. You would find the strength within yourself. And you are doing that now.

Again, I would encourage you to read WOTSM. It goes well with NMMNG.

You are doing well, squid. I know it is hard. But you are making progress.

So many men blame, and are bitter. You're not.

You are taking responsibility for yourself and your marriage. You know that the stronger you are, the stronger your marriage will be.

You are giving your family a gift, squid. Be proud.


----------



## alte Dame

If your wife wants you to go with her to visit her family after a 13-year drought, I hope you will agree to go with her.

If some of the things that have worn her down are your making decisions on your own and her having to deal with your mother, then it might behoove you to be her partner in a family trip for her that is so long in coming.

(FWIW, squid, I drank too much when I was dealing with serious issues and my experience was that it warped my thought processes. Maybe you should take a few days away from the alcohol to see if you see things differently.)


----------



## squid1035

alte Dame said:


> If your wife wants you to go with her to visit her family after a 13-year drought, I hope you will agree to go with her.
> 
> If some of the things that have worn her down are your making decisions on your own and her having to deal with your mother, then it might behoove you to be her partner in a family trip for her that is so long in coming.
> 
> (FWIW, squid, I drank too much when I was dealing with serious issues and my experience was that it warped my thought processes. Maybe you should take a few days away from the alcohol to see if you see things differently.)


I'm most likely going to go with her. What's the worst that could happen, right? I've already lost her. No chance we're going to divorce there.

We had a talk with our kids last night about the stuff happening with us. To our surprise, they said they weren't aware that something was off. They thought, though, that we were about to announce that I was moving out. That was after they asked if what we were about to announce was the arrival of a new baby! :rofl:

Afterwards, W pulled me aside and was so surprised that they seemed okay. She thought, "See, maybe this thing (divorce) won't be so bad." Like she really thought that would be the extent of what going through divorce would be like. A simple chat and everything would be back to normal.


----------



## jld

Wait a minute. You're talking divorce? I did not realize that.


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> Wait a minute. You're talking divorce? I did not realize that.


No, we're not talking officially of divorce. But some type of arrangement where I'm not her husband and I live elsewhere (not far) and I still spend a lot of time with the kids and her. She still envisions this as some type of family. I really don't think she realizes what she's wishing for. She want me very much in her life just not in a way where she's indebted to me an any way. I'm just here to help raise the kids and be a friend to her.

So, yeah, divorce. But not.


----------



## jld

I don't think that can work, squid. You want to have sex, right? So being friends is not going to work.

You may want to consider being a little more assertive at some point. You may want to think of boundaries to put into place in the marriage, expectations you have. You can ask her what expectations she has of you, too.

I am really sorry you are going through this. I know your wife is hurting, but there needs to be some reality here. Both your needs have to be met for this marriage to work.


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> I don't think that can work, squid. You want to have sex, right? So being friends is not going to work.
> 
> You may want to consider being a little more assertive at some point. You may want to think of boundaries to put into place in the marriage, expectations you have. You can ask her what expectations she has of you, too.
> 
> I am really sorry you are going through this. I know your wife is hurting, but there needs to be some reality here. Both your needs have to be met for this marriage to work.


Oh, there's no co-habitation in this friendship scheme. I'd be out of the house somewhere.

It just occurred to me how much she controls the marriage right now.


----------



## squid1035

Went to MC last night with W for the first time in a couple weeks and her first visit with the new MC.

We re-hashed everything that W missed for the last couple of sessions.

W kept emphasizing that she only wants to be friends and no more. 

I think a lot was discovered about me as to why I act the way I do and have this relationship with my mother. I expressed that I'm working through a lot of things and towards a change.

Maybe my W understands, not sure if it matters any more.

Still contemplating whether or not going home with her on her trip is still a good idea. She keeps saying "I don't want to lead you on or let you have hope." Pretty loud and clear. But she still wants me to go.

She admits her walls are still up and she's not willing to change. Not even willing to try. Not much I can do.

No point in this post. Just an update.


----------



## Keenwa

Hey Squid,

Your marriage sounds so similar to mine in so many ways. I personally don't enjoy controlling so much of the marriage and feeling like i am the one driving the boat, and he's along for the ride. I wish he'd take the wheel sometimes, even though I understand it would mean letting him do things his way sometimes, I feel like it's the only way to move forward. Yet he is paralyzed in this and can't seem to take the initiative really. 

I would respect him more if he stood up for himself and said "I can't live like this", but I feel like he's hanging around hoping things will improve. I also get that he is working through his own process and it's not happening fast enough for me. It's not fair for me to push him, so the only choice I have is to walk away. It's tough when you really care for the person and don't wish them harm, when you feel like you've done all you can, and find yourself at a standstill.


----------



## Keenwa

squid1035 said:


> I'm most likely going to go with her. What's the worst that could happen, right? I've already lost her. No chance we're going to divorce there.


My therapist talks a lot about making sure we don't do things out of agency i.e.. (because you think you "should" and not because you feel like it). 

I'd say go if you feel like you want to but if you are doing it only because you "should", then NO… set your boundary, she will respect you more for it. 

BTW… I don't think 1 glass of wine or a beer at the end of the day is "self medicating". If you had a bottle a day, maybe… anti depressants and other prescription meds are far stronger than that one glass of whatever you might have at the end of the day. 

My thought as well with my H is that though he really wants us to stay together, I really don't feel like it'd be good for him.. he might not see it that way right now. I don't mean that to be condescending or above it all, but sometimes we act so much out of fear that we can't see that it is not benefitting us. I think that is where he is at. 

It is pretty demoralizing to feel like you are doing everything you can and still it doesn't work. I think he feels that way, and I do as well, the fact that we both seem to fall short each time to me just means it's like we are trying to dance together but we're both listening to different music, so we keep smashing into each other and stepping on each other's toes. It's no one's fault it's just what it is.


----------



## squid1035

Keenwa,

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm not sure how open and honest you are with your husband. I know from my experience, my wife is completely up front that she no longer wants to be my wife or at least no longer wants to be in this relationship. What that means regarding divorce or separation or unorthodox living arrangement - I have no clue. 

It does seem to me that you have, in your mind, decided that you longer want to be with him. Yet you still are. Why? For his sake, set him free. I know that sounds corny. But I know firsthand how it feels to try so desperately to make something work, but still receive the message that it is of no use. At least you have the means to walk away. If I do remember, you have a job and can maybe afford to leave.

My wife has no job. So as much as this situation might not be favorable to her, it seems as though that the only reason she's staying is because she has no other means to go. I don't see why I should leave if I am not the one who wants to go.

So it's either piss or get off the pot. You're here, make the most of it. I get the feeling she knows specifically what areas could be worked on, but she just doesn't want to. She keeps telling me she can't do it any more. But really, she can't do things the way they've been done all along. So, we need to learn to do things differently so that our needs can be expressed and met. But she doesn't want that. She just wants to be alone.

I mean, is it fair that she gets to stay in the house, rent-free, while still getting to go shopping (which she does to much excess) and go to school and save up for vacations for herself (all of which is really being paid for by me as I'm the only one working here), but I have to go away?

I feel like a really reality check is in order.

I am more than willing to work through anything in order to get us back on track. She is not.

What's my next move?


----------



## Keenwa

Squid,

Oof that is rough. I completely agree with you. I have issue with women (or men, but it's more commonly women), who do not work and play the victim/helpless card. Honestly, i admit I have been burying my head in the sand the last few months, we had problems (health) with my daughter which took us astray from what was going on and I think we both gladly just buried our heads in the sand. But now it's time to **** or get off the pot like you say. 

Sounds like she does need a reality check. I have been taking on more work (I work on contract) in order to get a realistic idea of what my life will be when we have to pay for two places to live. I can't seem to wrap my head around how that will work really. I suppose we should live close to each other so the kids can easily go between homes etc… we are not flush with cash so it will really mean some lifestyle changes… I don't mind that part at all. 

I can't remember how old your kids are, but I see no reason whatsoever that when children are in school, the stay at home parent cannot work, at least 4-6 hours/day in some sort of job. But it sounds like perhaps you have not requested that of her? I can't remember. 

Anyhow, when you've been living a cushy life it's hard to give that up…our life has been relatively comfortable and I will definitely miss that financial comfort. But am willing to trade it for my life. That's how I feel at the moment. 

Thanks for the push. I need to talk to him again. We haven't been talking at all. just getting through the day… one day after the next.

You said you're willing to work though anything and she is not. There's the rub. It takes two to fix a relationship. I too have been trying to fix it … but it doesn't work if only one person does the work. 

You need to cut yourself a break too. Stop living in this awful situation, honour your right to feel good and live happily and cut her loose. You deserve to be with someone who wants you, all of you.


----------



## Keenwa

ps if she doesn't have the means to leave, then can't you sell the house, that way she doesn't get to stay in the larger property, then either buy or rent two smaller properties? That's what I'm thinking we will have to do. We can't afford two homes. So we will have to go from a home to maybe townhouse or condos. 

It sounds as if you are stuck because you don't want to leave, but you know she won't leave. Digging your heels in isn't going to move you forward either.


----------



## ifweonly

Squid_1035

There is always hope -- please read on.

About 35 or 40 years ago, we had $40,000 cash (yes, I made good money) and against my wife's wishes, I made an investment and subsequently lost it all; we lost EVERYTHING including our home. My wife wanted to walk and leave --- actually she did. I caught up with her and literally begged her to come back. I don't remember how long I was on my knees (on a county road) but I had created a hurt so deep in her.

My wife did come back and the next 6 months were very difficult as we had to sell our gold wedding bands just to buy a little food (we had three children). There were no public safety nets back then as there are today but we loaded up our beat-up pickup (we had lost our car) with what was left our lives and moved about 100 miles away.

I worked very low paying jobs while I sent out over 100 resumes` in the area of my education (biochemistry) but could not land a job as there were none. you can imagine how my wife was feeling about all of this but I assured her I would make it up to if she would stay by me.

I eventually did find employment in my area of education and after a few years, I was making more money than ever. Things were much better between us and then I told my wife that we would build another new house. This was something she really wanted and at that time she was feeling more comfortable with my decision making (no more wild investments!).

Today, we are very much a happily married couple (52 years) and those events that happened are just a bad memory that she just never talks about.

So Squid_1035 there is always hope --- you and your wife are not that far apart. I just pray that there is healing in your situation that you and your wife can once again become united in love.


----------



## squid1035

ifweonly said:


> Squid_1035
> 
> There is always hope -- please read on.
> 
> About 35 or 40 years ago, we had $40,000 cash (yes, I made good money) and against my wife's wishes, I made an investment and subsequently lost it all; we lost EVERYTHING including our home. My wife wanted to walk and leave --- actually she did. I caught up with her and literally begged her to come back. I don't remember how long I was on my knees (on a county road) but I had created a hurt so deep in her.
> 
> My wife did come back and the next 6 months were very difficult as we had to sell our gold wedding bands just to buy a little food (we had three children). There were no public safety nets back then as there are today but we loaded up our beat-up pickup (we had lost our car) with what was left our lives and moved about 100 miles away.
> 
> I worked very low paying jobs while I sent out over 100 resumes` in the area of my education (biochemistry) but could not land a job as there were none. you can imagine how my wife was feeling about all of this but I assured her I would make it up to if she would stay by me.
> 
> I eventually did find employment in my area of education and after a few years, I was making more money than ever. Things were much better between us and then I told my wife that we would build another new house. This was something she really wanted and at that time she was feeling more comfortable with my decision making (no more wild investments!).
> 
> Today, we are very much a happily married couple (52 years) and those events that happened are just a bad memory that she just never talks about.
> 
> So Squid_1035 there is always hope --- you and your wife are not that far apart. I just pray that there is healing in your situation that you and your wife can once again become united in love.


Thank you, ifweonly.

We had a good talk last night. She called me into the bedroom and we chatted for a bit and it seemed like she had really taken to heart what we talked about in MC. She asked a lot about other couples that I had mentioned to her and how bad things were with them and how they managed to turn things around. I told her how I'd heard of so many experiences from TAM of couples that had cheated, suffered through many years of abuse and loss of love and had even filed for divorce, but managed to turn it around. 

I said that at some point you just have to make a choice that you at least want to try. I told her that I have no expectations, but that I'm still her husband and as long as we're married, I will honor her and continue to learn and grow in order to be the husband she deserves. She said, "But you don't believe I want to try." I said all signs say no, but that I understand that she's afraid and hurt and can't bring herself to let down her guard right now.

I think she seems to be turning a bit. Before this last MC session she was firmly pointed in the opposite direction. She might be turning a bit to a neutral position. I mean she really has been more open, more engaging in deeper conversation and seems to be searching for answers since the MC. I think she's at least open to the process. 

I can accept when she says "I'm just not feeling it yet. It's going to take some time." I said I'm totally ok with that.


----------



## jld

I'm glad to hear there is some openness there, squid.

Any chance she would come here and explain her side of things?


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> I'm glad to hear there is some openness there, squid.
> 
> Any chance she would come here and explain her side of things?


You know, I think she could really benefit from hearing other people's experiences. She really thinks that she's alone in her experience. I tell her how amazed I am at the stories I've heard from others that were so similar to ours and even far worse. Some didn't make it. But many others have.

I'll suggest it for sure. She needs to share. She's not very good at that. It makes her uneasy being so open.


----------



## anchorwatch

As he has had no safe person IRL to express himself, I think this should be squid's sanctuary. Also, her reaction to his written thoughts can't be gauged right now.

Squid, not that she couldn't use her own experience. Think about this a bit.


----------



## anchorwatch

How's the reading going? 

If she doesn't express herself easy, does she read?


----------



## jld

Squid, would you feel inhibited or threatened in any way by your wife's coming here? Or would you welcome it?


----------



## squid1035

jld and anchorwatch, 

I don't think there's much here that I haven't already talked about with her. Maybe some of my deepest fears and hurts weren't fully shared with her, but I know she understands.

Would I mind? I don't think so. She'd definitely get the most unedited version of my thoughts here.

I just finished NMMNG. Great book. I see myself as a Nice Guy who's is so stuck in his own head that he can't get out of his own way. Pretty much spot on.

My other books are en route as we speak.

You know, I started a new thread in the Men's Clubhouse section of this forum that pretty much mirrored this thread. I'll tell you, the advice there is pretty brutal. Kick her to the curb and good riddance is pretty much the overwhelming sentiment. There's only one voice amidst the chorus that is really helpful and a lot more like what I've found here. Focus on myself and learn to grow and improve. Worry about what I can control and forget about what you cannot control. For now, at least.

As for this being my safe zone, I do like that. I'm not sure if I should even see what my wife would post. I think she should have her safe zone too. For her sense of integrated self.


----------



## jld

You could make an agreement not to read each other's threads, if it would make you feel more comfortable.

I think TAM is a great place for couples, squid. My husband, Duguesclin, is here. I love reading posts with him and discussing them. We don't always agree, and we learn from listening to each other's perspective.

I would encourage you to propose coming here to her. I think it would be eye-opening for both of you. 

And I would just ignore all those bitter, harsh voices. I am going to check out your thread. That one poster seems right on.


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> You could make an agreement not to read each other's threads, if it would make you feel more comfortable.
> 
> I think TAM is a great place for couples, squid. My husband, Duguesclin, is here. I love reading posts with him and discussing them. We don't always agree, and we learn from listening to each other's perspective.
> 
> I would encourage you to propose coming here to her. I think it would be eye-opening for both of you.
> 
> And I would just ignore all those bitter, harsh voices. I am going to check out your thread. That one poster seems right on.



HAHA! Thanks for sticking up for me and my wife. :smthumbup:

They're pretty unforgiving, right?? I'll probably delete that thread and maybe post in general discussion area just to get a wider perspective from people.


----------



## anchorwatch

Maybe she could browse Dr Harley's basic concepts to see what you have learned. Then maybe you could have a conversation comparing them to why you both feel the way you do. 

A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts


----------



## squid1035

Does anybody think it wOuld be a bad idea if i suggested she stay in the Philippines when she goes home? if her current position is that she doesn't love me anymore and the only thing she wants to work towards is to be just friends, what else is there? 

I can only accePt rejection for so long. she's been in this frame of mind since OcTober and hasn't budged. 

Any exercises we do in MC are only done by her for friendship and any talk of the future doesn't hint towards our marriage.

Am I being too negative?

PS: I mean that if by the time she goes home in late June she still hasn't budged, make that suggestion, as kind of a reality check.

She's always thought that being back home would solve her problems. She could go back to school and find a job and pick up where she left off so many years ago. So there's her out.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## jld

You might offer that to her. What would you do about the kids?


----------



## anchorwatch

Have you given up on the idea of one last shot with the interventions I mentioned? 


Ar


----------



## squid1035

anchorwatch said:


> Have you given up on the idea of one last shot with the interventions I mentioned?
> 
> 
> Ar


No, I haven't given up on that. Unfortunately we just missed a workshop that was very near to us. The next one is in a town 3 hours away. There's another one that's closer but it's happening the on the weekend that she returns from her trip. Once again, it seems like timing is really working against us here.

But I'm still look around for other options.


----------



## squid1035

Here's a question for you all. Have any of you come back after your spouse tells you that he/she doesn't love you?

We had this conversation just now. She asked,"what would you do if the tables were turned? What if you didn't love me? What would you do?" Very matter-of-factly. Just while we were watching tv together.

So there's really nothing to interpret. I just don't know if it's even possible to come back from that.


----------



## Lon

squid1035 said:


> Here's a question for you all. Have any of you come back after your spouse tells you that he/she doesn't love you?
> 
> We had this conversation just now. She asked,"what would you do if the tables were turned? What if you didn't love me? What would you do?" Very matter-of-factly. Just while we were watching tv together.
> 
> So there's really nothing to interpret. I just don't know if it's even possible to come back from that.


Has she ever loved you?

For some reason after scanning several of your threads, I get the sense that you were largely seen as the means to the quality of life she wanted. She had no need to be cruel to you, but nor was it in her interest to ever be completely honest with you.

Or am I totally off-base?


----------



## squid1035

Lon said:


> Has she ever loved you?
> 
> For some reason after scanning several of your threads, I get the sense that you were largely seen as the means to the quality of life she wanted. She had no need to be cruel to you, but nor was it in her interest to ever be completely honest with you.
> 
> Or am I totally off-base?


Well, I'd certainly like to think that at one time we were both really in love. She had our old photo albums out the other day and remarked at all of the wonderful memories we had. So many beautiful memories.

I was her first boyfriend. Her first love. Her first everything. She's just sees me differently now. Like a potential cautionary tale that she might have to live through again and she doesn't want to do it any more. She doesn't want to feel rejected and "downgraded".


----------



## anchorwatch

Squid, granted the situation, you're paying your wife a lot of attention. How much attention are you paying yourself?


----------



## squid1035

anchorwatch said:


> Squid, granted the situation, you're paying your wife a lot of attention. How much attention are you paying yourself?


Not a lot. Pretty self destructive haze I'm in lately. I realize it but I don't know how to snap out of it. I woke up again in the middle of the night and was immediately struck with my sad reality and couldn't go back to sleep.

I just can't find hope....

Many comments here point towards a sad dissolution. And they far outnumber the positive advice and encouragement, by a long shot.

I guess I have to try and heal and move on. She certainly has moved on.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: In a Rough Patch*



squid1035 said:


> Not a lot. Pretty self destructive haze I'm in lately. I realize it but I don't know how to snap out of it. I woke up again in the middle of the night and was immediately struck with my sad reality and couldn't go back to sleep.
> 
> I just can't find hope....
> 
> Many comments here point towards a sad dissolution. And they far outnumber the positive advice and encouragement, by a long shot.
> 
> I guess I have to try and heal and move on. She certainly has moved on.


Quite the contrary squid, not a sad dissolution rather the right outcome you need to accept the truth (whatever that may be at this point) so you can begin healing and enjoying a fulfilling life again (be it in your current marriage, as a single or in a future relationship).

It is not sad that we can't control what other people want. It is only sad when we lose control over being able to make our own life what we want. It is sad to love someone that is unable or unwilling to love us back.


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## anchorwatch

As cliche as it sounds, hope is found in one's self, not in others, and not in her. Has it passed your mind the reason she feels the the way she does about you is because you've become dependent on her, for your hope and happiness? 

Do you have any interest, hobbies, activities? May I suggest you get involved in something asap, running or the gym would work. It will help you stay center, while you're going through this. How about the breaking free exercises?


----------



## squid1035

anchorwatch said:


> As cliche as it sounds, hope is found in one's self, not in others, and not in her. Has it passed your mind the reason she feels the the way she does about you is because you've become dependent on her, for your hope and happiness?
> 
> Do you have any interest, hobbies, activities? May I suggest you get involved in something asap, running or the gym would work. It will help you stay center, while you're going through this. How about the breaking free exercises?


You're totally right. I placed to much of my identity in being a husband, father and family man. I guess I'm mourning at seeing it crumble away. I feel like I'm grieving the loss of loved one. I know, I have to find something productive to get my mind out of this rut. I agree.

Thanks. Lon, too.


----------



## professor_panda

squid1035 said:


> You're totally right. I placed to much of my identity in being a husband, father and family man. I guess I'm mourning at seeing it crumble away. I feel like I'm grieving the loss of loved one. I know, I have to find something productive to get my mind out of this rut. I agree.
> 
> Thanks. Lon, too.


Yep, that was me a year ago when I got the all-too-familiar "I love you but I'm not IN LOVE with you" speech. 

I was the best dad in the world. I was a very sweet guy. Very kind. Very loving. I was not a sexy guy by any stretch.

Women fall in love with the sexy guy... and learn to love and appreciate the rest. The rub is that they can very easily fall out of love with a man... and once they fall out of love, it's over. Most times, they fall out of love when a new man is introduced (an affair - extremely common). That's what my ex-wife did. She got somebody else to rub push her "sexy needs" button, and it was enough to overrule all of my good qualities.

I've since divorced, found my old self again, dated, got laid many times, and found an incredibly good person I now call my "girlfriend". Yes, a lot happened in one short year. 

On the surface, without me knowing you and your wife (obviously), it SOUNDS like she's getting the sexy button pushed by somebody else, but wants you around for stability and comfort factor as the nice guy provider.

It's time to show her the door.


----------



## professor_panda

squid1035 said:


> I'm most likely going to go with her. What's the worst that could happen, right? I've already lost her. No chance we're going to divorce there.
> 
> We had a talk with our kids last night about the stuff happening with us. To our surprise, they said they weren't aware that something was off. They thought, though, that we were about to announce that I was moving out. That was after they asked if what we were about to announce was the arrival of a new baby! :rofl:
> 
> Afterwards, W pulled me aside and was so surprised that they seemed okay. She thought, "See, maybe this thing (divorce) won't be so bad." Like she really thought that would be the extent of what going through divorce would be like. A simple chat and everything would be back to normal.


How old are the kiddos?


----------



## squid1035

Just checking in, everyone.

Nothing great to report here. No real progress. W is really focusing all of my past transgressions and questioning my judgement and pretty much attacking my character. Some incidents didn't even involve her. 

Safe to say she no longer even likes me as a person. Also isn't interested in sticking around to really see me change. The finger pointing is firmly all directed at me. Any fault she's accepting is minimal.

I asked her what she wants she said "not to be stuck anymore." I said, "Then go. I'm not keeping you here." She said I know. Later she asked where would she go. 

She's not really interested in MC anymore. Doesn't seem to care one way or the other. Only sees it as a drain on our finances. So I'm not sure if any of the marriage 911 interventions might be of any use.

Does anybody think MC is of any use if she doesn't really want to go?


----------



## squid1035

professor_panda said:


> how old are the kiddos?


9, 14, & 15


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: In a Rough Patch*



squid1035 said:


> I asked her what she wants she said "not to be stuck anymore." I said, "Then go. I'm not keeping you here." She said I know. Later she asked where would she go.
> 
> Does anybody think MC is of any use if she doesn't really want to go?


So even though you are letting her go, and she doesn't want to be there, she still feels stuck.

Has it maybe dawned on her yet that you are not the source of her problems? That she is the one causing the issues, so any complaints she has about you are completely invalid, and that she is being an idiot for throwing away a loving husband and destroying a family?

She doesn't need MC, she needs IC for herself and to pull her head from her ass.


----------



## squid1035

Lon said:


> So even though you are letting her go, and she doesn't want to be there, she still feels stuck.
> 
> Has it maybe dawned on her yet that you are not the source of her problems? That she is the one causing the issues, so any complaints she has about you are completely invalid, and that she is being an idiot for throwing away a loving husband and destroying a family?
> 
> She doesn't need MC, she needs IC for herself and to pull her head from her ass.



I don't think she'd be up for IC. She doesn't think anything is wrong her. She's happy with who she is.

One time I asked if there was any other way that she could see this working out other than separation/divorce. And she said she didn't know. And I said, "So the only solution is to blow up this family?" She then accused me of calling her a bad person because she wants to destroy the family. She called me defensive because I somehow misinterpreted her desire for me to move out as something other than the fracturing of our family. 

Yeah, it sounds bad when you say it like that, but that's what it is, right? If the family unit is no longer intact, then it is not a family unit. Everything is not normal if a family member is cast out from the home.


----------



## Lon

squid1035 said:


> She called me defensive because I somehow misinterpreted her desire for me to move out as something other than the fracturing of our family.


OH... so she wants YOU to move??

I get it now.

Honestly, tell her to fvck off. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but she wants you to just stop existing except for the paychecks and home you provide.

If you want to remain in YOUR home, and sleep in YOUR bed, you are absolutely entitled to, and if she doesn't like it, she leaves (maybe that would help her to not feel so stuck?)

Lawyer up, and if anyone is to be cast from the family home let it be her...


----------



## Lon

Going back and perusing this entire thread it completely occurred to me that she is checked out and is simply trying to angle you out. She has held your marriage over your head and used it to try to sell you on the idea that if you move out you "may" be able to win her back... yada yada, she is blameshifting you entirely on the reasons for her to be unhappy, and she is demonstrating that she is not going to do anything to improve her situation other than try to make your life as miserable as possible until you leave, at which point she will pounce with all the legal force she can muster.

Of all the comments and advice I have read and written, I say this with absolute certainly squid, more certain than anything I have written on TAM: DO NOT MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOUSE, and DO NOT GIVE UP CUSTODY OF YOUR CHILDREN.

She is manipulating you, and wants you out of the picture so she can replace you. Not with anyone in particular, just someone that she believes will be an upgrade. Wake up and put a stop to it because you are revealing all the ways that she can continue to bully you. She either acts like a Wife or you kick her out. (I do not mean this in any misogynistic way, but you need to protect yourself because what I see is a cruel calculating person in her that is so obviously acting to preserve her best interests at all costs to you)


----------



## alte Dame

She only knows negatives at this point:

- She doesn't love you.
- She doesn't like your family.
- She doesn't want to live with you.
- She doesn't want a divorce.
- She doesn't want to break up the family.
- She doesn't know how to have a career.
- She doesn't know how to be happy.
....

Your wife is wholly unconstructive now. There is certainly no point in trying to take any cues from someone who only knows what she doesn't want and can't move forward with any constructive goals.

Many people have said that you should focus on working on yourself, just for the sake of being the best person you can be.

This sounds good and it's hard to see how you have any alternative.


----------



## squid1035

It's certainly hard not to get sucked into her vortex. If I continued to live my life only believing everything she says about me, I'd end up believing I was some kind of monster.

I know I'm not anywhere near perfect, but I've always tried to act with her best interests at heart. I wish she could see that.

I am trying to work at being the change that I want to see.


----------



## Lon

alte Dame said:


> She only knows negatives at this point:
> 
> - She doesn't love you.
> - She doesn't like your family.
> - She doesn't want to live with you.
> - She doesn't want a divorce.
> - She doesn't want to break up the family.
> - She doesn't know how to have a career.
> - She doesn't know how to be happy.
> ....
> 
> Your wife is wholly unconstructive now. There is certainly no point in trying to take any cues from someone who only knows what she doesn't want and can't move forward with any constructive goals.
> 
> Many people have said that you should focus on working on yourself, just for the sake of being the best person you can be.
> 
> This sounds good and it's hard to see how you have any alternative.



I agree wholeheartedly. Much of this thread from earlier this year was about squid manning up, reading the way of the superior man etc. taking ultimate responsibility for the state of the marriage. But at what point did he or anyone question whether squid's W is accepting, or worthy of that? Would she stand behind her man? Support him? offer unconditional love?

To me it seems clear that he has no love or support coming from her at all, in fact just the opposite.


----------



## jld

Lon said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. Much of this thread from earlier this year was about squid manning up, reading the way of the superior man etc. taking ultimate responsibility for the state of the marriage. But at what point did he or anyone question whether squid's W is accepting, or worthy of that? Would she stand behind her man? Support him? offer unconditional love?
> 
> To me it seems clear that he has no love or support coming from her at all, in fact just the opposite.


Lon, she has been greatly disappointed by him. He lost a lot of money twice, right? Would you have great trust in someone who lost a lot of money twice? When you are and have been financially dependent on him your whole married life?

And again, she is from a totally different culture. That needs to be taken into account. She may have been brought up with very different expectations than an American woman.

Squid, you seem dependent on her. You seem to be looking to her for support. She does not seem able to give it. 

What do you think you can do to make yourself stronger?


----------



## Lon

jld said:


> Lon, she has been greatly disappointed by him. He lost a lot of money twice, right? Would you have great trust in someone who lost a lot of money twice? When you are and have been financially dependent on him your whole married life?
> 
> And again, she is from a totally different culture. That needs to be taken into account. She may have been brought up with very different expectations than an American woman.


She totally disrespects him.

He overspent on his credit card... who hasn't done that?

What you see is a self-flagellating Squid, not one that has failed over and over.

Whatever her expectations, they were good enough 15 years ago. She is the one who has changed, and is unhappy as a result, and who wants more change, and for those changes to favour her entirely.

The more I read from Squid, the more I sympathize with him and less I like his W. He is in a no win situation because she has chosen to put him there.


----------



## jld

Lon said:


> She totally disrespects him.
> 
> He overspent on his credit card... who hasn't done that?
> 
> What you see is a self-flagellating Squid, not one that has failed over and over.
> 
> Whatever her expectations, they were good enough 15 years ago. She is the one who has changed, and is unhappy as a result, and who wants more change, and for those changes to favour her entirely.
> 
> The more I read from Squid, the more I sympathize with him and less I like his W. He is in a no win situation because she has chosen to put him there.


Hmm, I wonder if I am confusing squid's financial misdeeds with someone else. I thought he had lost a significant amount of money twice. My apologies, squid.

The thing is, Lon, that we have not heard Mrs. squid's side of this. I'm not sure that giving squid lots of sympathy is really going to help him.

And is she really able to put him in a no win situation? She seems pretty confused to me. I think she is looking to him for leadership, but squid does not seem to be able to provide it.


----------



## squid1035

Well, 

She read this thread. Not sure if she read the whole thing. She didn't seem pleased. Maybe she felt misrepresented or feels like no one is on her side.

Lon, I'm sure your comments did make her feel good.

Oh well. It's not like I can make her not love me more.


----------



## Lon

I don't care if she likes my comments or not squid. I sympathize with you because I get the impression that you are willingly accepting the blame for a whole lot of things, even beyond what you are really responsible for. I get it, I too blamed myself for a whole lot more problems in my marriage than I was capable of fixing alone... but 1) it doesn't win you any attraction from your wife back 2) it doesn't produce actual results because if you set out to fix things you have no control over you will fail, all for naught.

If she wants people to listen to her side we are all ears. I promise to not judge harshly or be blinded by me own personal biases. I truly am interested in hearing the other side of the equation.


----------



## jld

squid1035 said:


> Well,
> 
> She read this thread. Not sure if she read the whole thing. She didn't seem pleased. * Maybe she felt misrepresented or feels like no one is on her side.*
> 
> Lon, I'm sure your comments did make her feel good.
> 
> Oh well. It's not like I can make her not love me more.


I am not surprised by the bolded.

Looking at your last sentence, squid . . . do you see how selfish that makes you look? 

I think if you could not take what she is saying personally, but could somehow remove yourself, detach at least somewhat emotionally, you would be in a better position to see how to best help her. You are not going to get the love you want if she is not getting her needs met.

And I, too, hope Mrs. squid comes to tell her side of the story.


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> I am not surprised by the bolded.
> 
> Looking at your last sentence, squid . . . do you see how selfish that makes you look?
> 
> I think if you could not take what she is saying personally, but could somehow remove yourself, detach at least somewhat emotionally, you would be in a better position to see how to best help her. You are not going to get the love you want if she is not getting her needs met.
> 
> And I, too, hope Mrs. squid comes to tell her side of the story.



Fair enough. I wish she would share her story too.:iagree:

Selfish is definitely a description that she's used on me, and I definitely resemble that remark. I have trouble seeing things from other people's point of view. 

In accordance with Nice Guy descriptions, I'm all of the above. Giving only to get...covert contracts...only in it for approval for myself. Recently we've talked about my upbringing - only child, latchkey kid, no dad. She asked last night if I used that as some lame excuse for my crappy behavior. 

Be more like teflon and let these remarks bounce off. But she's pretty spot on. And I'm not just self-flagellating. I am a pretty weak person. Not as weak as I used to be, but weak nonetheless.

She found some old letters I wrote to her from before when we got married. We had a couple conflicts with her trying to accept that I had feelings with somebody before her. I am her 1st boyfriend and 1st love and everything else. In those notes I can see that I was so co-dependent and trying to say anything to make her stay. Perhaps the better thing would have been to just let her go now. 

That was back in 1998. It's come back full circle. I don't know if there's any chance of this marriage lasting any longer. I honestly don't think so.

For the record, Lon, I don't think there's anybody else. So from now on, let's leave that conversation out. Unless I have any evidence that can point me that way, then I will address those concerns. I think I've done enough due diligence to conclude that is not going on. I don't want to paint that type of picture of her. There is no evidence that suggests it, at least. I still love this woman and appreciate the blessings she has brought into my life.

Surely, though, she's looking for greener pastures. I can't display an appreciably positive change in me overnight, and that's what she seems to be demanding of me. If she can't see it now, then there's no point in her staying. That seems to be the vibe I get from her. I'm probably wrong, as usual.

I'm not looking for justification here at all. I even don't want to be told that I'm right. For the most part, I was not the best husband I could be and I think that is what has disappointed her so much. She's in a state of disillusionment and cannot see anything good coming of it. For sure, we are broken and she cannot see the point trying to right a sinking (if not already sunken) ship.


----------



## jld

That was a really honest post, squid. Every time I read a post like that from you, I feel hopeful for your marriage. When a person can be humble, he can acknowledge problems and change things. But it sounds like you are giving up.

You said you are a weak person. I don't like to say that, but I do think your wife would appreciate more strength, because I think she is dealing with a lot of weakness in herself.

Does that NMMNG book have exercises in it that are supposed to strengthen you? Have you finished reading the book?

Please don't give up on the marriage just yet. It would be expensive and hard to be away from the kids. And I do think you love your wife. And I think she loves you. Otherwise she would have left already.

I think she is looking to you for direction. She wants you to tell her why she should stay with you. She wants you to be strong enough to hear all the awful things she feels, and love her anyway. 

It's what every wife wants, squid.


----------



## anchorwatch

Now you can go about positive change without worrying how it will effect her. Like you should have all along.

Will you?


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> That was a really honest post, squid. Every time I read a post like that from you, I feel hopeful for your marriage. When a person can be humble, he can acknowledge problems and change things. But it sounds like you are giving up.
> 
> You said you are a weak person. I don't like to say that, but I do think your wife would appreciate more strength, because I think she is dealing with a lot of weakness in herself.
> 
> Does that NMMNG book have exercises in it that are supposed to strengthen you? Have you finished reading the book?
> 
> Please don't give up on the marriage just yet. It would be expensive and hard to be away from the kids. And I do think you love your wife. And I think she loves you. Otherwise she would have left already.
> 
> I think she is looking to you for direction. She wants you to tell her why she should stay with you. She wants you to be strong enough to hear all the awful things she feels, and love her anyway.
> 
> It's what every wife wants, squid.



I just talked with her. She was mortally offended at how she seemed to be judged throughout the thread. She only read the 1st couple of pages and the last, however. She says she doesn't know who I am anymore.

She's making plans to get work abroad maybe sometime in January. She doesn't see any reason to stay. She thinks I don't need her and thinks she has no positive effect on my life.

So that's my time line. I have until January to make a positive change that MIGHT win my wife back. If not, oh well. I can't reason her into wanting to stay for the kids and all that. I do know that the kids need their mom. And she's a great mom. A great homemaker too. And an awesome wife. She stood by me through the sh*tstorm for almost 15 years. She just can't take it anymore. Period.


And I can't convince her to stay.


----------



## squid1035

anchorwatch said:


> Now you can go about positive change without worrying how it will effect her. Like you should have all along.
> 
> Will you?


I HAVE to. For my kids.


----------



## Lon

Squid, I stopped insinuating that there was possibly some OM quite some time ago, however you put it very succinctly that she wants greener pastures. As for her feeling judged etc, it was only me and a couple others that are saying it is all on her that she wants to end the marriage, most others on here seem to back the idea that you need to win her back somehow. I'm not saying, nor never have said, treat her unlovingly, but like her saying what is the point of remaining married if she has no feelings, what is the point of you continuing to make deposits to her love bank if she isn't even going to register them? She is the one checked out here, not you. This is your thread and I'm on your side.


----------



## jld

squid1035 said:


> I just talked with her. She was mortally offended at how she seemed to be judged throughout the thread. She only read the 1st couple of pages and the last, however. She says she doesn't know who I am anymore.
> 
> She's making plans to get work abroad maybe sometime in January. She doesn't see any reason to stay. She thinks I don't need her and thinks she has no positive effect on my life.
> 
> So that's my time line. I have until January to make a positive change that MIGHT win my wife back. If not, oh well. I can't reason her into wanting to stay for the kids and all that. I do know that the kids need their mom. And she's a great mom. A great homemaker too. And an awesome wife. She stood by me through the sh*tstorm for almost 15 years. She just can't take it anymore. Period.
> 
> 
> And I can't convince her to stay.


Well, I will tell you, I think it is *appalling* the way some people have talked about your wife. Of course she was mortally offended. She seems like a very nice woman who is just disappointed in her husband. She needs support, not criticism.

And those comments about how she could be cheating?  Your wife has never struck me that way at all.

No wonder she does not want to come here.


----------



## squid1035

I guess I'm done here. She's determined now to leave as soon as she's financially able. She is officially checked out. There's no reasoning or rationale. All she sees is an escape from a life of emotional pain. I don't want to be her source of pain.

I'll work on me, for my kids.

I'll check back in if some miracle happens. Take care.


----------



## jld

Good luck, squid.

And please tell your wife sorry for some of the things that were said here.


----------



## squid1035

jld said:


> Good luck, squid.
> 
> And please tell your wife sorry for some of the things that were said here.


Thank you.


----------



## Lon

*Re: Re: In a Rough Patch*



squid1035 said:


> I guess I'm done here. She's determined now to leave as soon as she's financially able. She is officially checked out. There's no reasoning or rationale. All she sees is an escape from a life of emotional pain. I don't want to be her source of pain.
> 
> I'll work on me, for my kids.
> 
> I'll check back in if some miracle happens. Take care.


Sorry for what you are going through squid, I make no apologies for what I've written on here, but I do hope you find the conviction to do what you believe is right for you. Good luck...


----------



## Keenwa

Hi Squid, I have come back to check in… and just wanted to say sorry to hear that things are not going well. I really identified with your wife in your thread at the beginning, however I think where she is really wrong is to refuse to go for IC. No doubt this is out of fear. When I decided to walk out of my marriage, I was at the end of my rope, I felt betrayed, angry, and full of resentment… but this past year of IC and some MC, has shown me that I was contributing equally to the disfunction. 

So what I hear in your posts is that you are doing all the work to fix the marriage… and I can completely relate to your wife not wanting to work at it. I felt this way too, and still do, I worked and worked and worked at it, and when I told him I needed him to plan things for us, or that I wanted a relationship, he would look at me stupefied. I waited too long, I waited until I could not go on living that way, until I felt like I had disappeared, lost myself, and had no hope for the future and for life as I was living it. So, I threw it at him, told him I was leaving,told him we both needed to work on ourselves individually and separately, and he asked me to stay, to work it out. I agreed for a year, but I made very little effort, I was angry, hurt, exhausted, really really exhausted. I felt like it was his turn, after all, he was the one who wanted to fix this right?

Only problem is that if you feel this way, you simply cannot get anywhere. So I would say that if she feels that stuck it would be best to let her go. Especially since she is not willing to seek counselling. It takes 2 people to make a relationship work, to work out conflict, to fix things. I didn't think I could ever come back from it, but I am now starting to regain some respect and feelings of caring for my H. It's been a year… I have done some intense IC. 

I still don't know if we'll stay together, but a good hard look in the mirror is always good, and if you are the only one looking, then you can't go anywhere with that. 

Your children will be better off with you guys separated… 

Sometimes I think we just need to honour how we feel, let go and move on.


----------



## squid1035

The last bit of irony/kismet/bad luck...

After last week's meltdown over reading this thread we talked quite a bit and really started to share our deeper feelings again. I went to MC alone last Wednesday and told W that we talked quite a bit about the aforementioned meltdown and her subsequent plans to split. MC told me that she was acting pretty irrationally and selfishly and that I needed to say something to her. So I did. And in a much calmer state of mind, W agreed. She gave me assurances that she would never just leave me to raise the kids alone and that she was pretty emotional when she said those remarks. 

Anyway, this conversation seemed to peak some interest in her to want to at least start going to IC, to gain some clarity and a different perspective. She had become comfortable enough with our MC that she thought she could at least go to her to seek some IC.

So fast forward to this past Monday (two days before my W was scheduled to go to her 1st IC), and I get a text that our MC is "no longer with the facility" and that we'd have to schedule with another counselor. That's the second counselor that has abruptly left that facility. And on both occasions, my wife had just began to get comfortable with the idea of seeking counsel that she made the choice to want to go, only for them to leave just days before. And then we get passed off like some redheaded stepchild to somebody else that we'd have to rebuild our trust and rapport with and start from zero again.

I mean, talk about bad luck. How ironic is it that I have childhood abandonment issues that I need to get worked out through therapy and BOTH of my therapists "abandon" me/us? 

It's almost comedic.

My W said, "Is it us?" And she's been talking all of this time about waiting for some kind of sign to help show her what she should do. 

It's been obstacle after obstacle. 3 steps forward, 4 steps back.

I've been reading a lot. W.F. Harley's work is the only thing giving me hope. But I don't know how to kickstart her into wanting to try and change.

For sure, I'll be looking into IC next week. I'm wallowing in a dark pit lately. I NEED out.

-squid


----------



## Lon

Find out where the counselor went and go there.


----------



## jld

squid1035 said:


> we talked quite a bit and really started to *share our deeper feelings again*. . . . She gave me assurances that she would never just leave me to raise the kids alone and that* she was pretty emotional when she said those remarks. *


So glad to see that you two are sharing deeply. That is what will sustain a marriage: transparency on the deepest level. It bonds us to one another.

And of course she was emotional and did not mean what she said. That is how I function when angry, too. That is why dh does not take that seriously. He told me once that he hears my words, but he knows my heart.

Always hear beyond her words, squid. Hear her heart. Hear what she is not saying.

Glad to read your post today.


----------



## squid1035

I'm glad to share.


----------



## Keenwa

how frustrating! but also what a great excuse for it not to move forward. I agree with others, find out where that counsellor went and find him/her. They are not allowed to contact their clients and let them know, but surely you can find him/her if you look. Your counsellor didn't abandon you. He/she left the position or was let go, and they are not legally allowed to contact you. BUT you can find them and seek out their services.


----------



## squid1035

Hi all.

A quick update, for anyone that's interested.

I have been working on self improvements. I haven't sought a new IC as I've been really busy lately with my summer classes and kids' birthdays now that their summer vacation is here. But I intend to find one when things die down a bit.

I recently started Mort Fertel's Marriage Fitness Tele Boot Camp. It's really helped me to see where I can focus to try and reconnect with my wife. I understand this will take time. I know that before I was hanging on my wife's every word and taking all of my emotional cues from her. Fertel's program helped me to see that I had to not worry so much about what she's trying to project, but to try and become the husband that she desires. And he has some great advice regarding that and how to approach my marriage. 

My wife has been really focused on going home to visit her family. She'll be leaving this Saturday for 3 weeks to see them. This will be the first time in 13 years that she's visited them so it's a really big deal and it's the only thing that she's focused on right now. So marriage isn't really in her heart at this moment. And I think I need to give her space to let her fully enjoy her experience. She's been terribly homesick for the past couple of years and she NEEDS this.

She's given hints here and there that she might be willing to let me back into her heart. They may be small, but at least she's making sure to express them. 

When she gets back I'm going to really try and get her involved in Fertel's program with me. Her part wouldn't be too hard. I've been the one that has made the most transgressions. But she can gain a lot as to how she might have contributed to the broken state of our marriage and how we might be able to rebuild it.

We had brief heart-to-heart and she asked me if I regret that I'm stuck with her or that we're stuck together. She's referring to the fact that if she could, she would leave. But because she has no job, she can't. I said my only regret is that she simply no longer wants to try. And that she can't bring herself to try and even entertain the idea of working towards watching our marriage succeed.

She says she's moved on. I take that as emotionally checked out and never looking back.

So that's it. Stuck in a loveless marriage with someone who doesn't want to work things out. Doesn't even want to work on herself. Just wants to work on finishing goals she had to put aside for many years.

I don't know anything anymore. Sad.


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## squid1035

A brief update:

(from a PM I sent to somebody else)

Yes, she's there now. It hasn't been the best time for her, unfortunately. The city she left is not at all how it was. Overcrowded, traffic, polluted. It's been very stressful. We've been texting and Skyping and more and more she says she's really missing me. Just yesterday she was at a beach that we once went to and she said she really wished I was there so that she could put her head on my shoulder. 

She said it's such a shame I couldn't go. And nobody there could understand why I wasn't with her. Her first day there she said I should have been there with her and that we really could have bonded. She's seeing all of the places where we first fell in love and I'm not there to experience it with her. She cried a few times over the phone at how much she missed me and I felt how much she needed me there.

I really missed a critical opportunity to reconnect with her. I'm really regretting not being with her. I've got excuses - commitments made that couldn't be broken, kids, school. My main fear was that if I went, this thing between us would have lessened the experience. Maybe made it more depressing. I couldn't stand the thought of faking happiness with everyone there knowing that we might be on the verge of total separation. Now, every time I hear her say she misses me or hear her exasperation of such a wasted opportunity I just kick myself so hard.

But she's always talking now about the future and when we go back there again and all of the things we need to do. So I hope that's positive. I know I still need to work on being a better man. And I fear that when she gets back things will be as they were when she left. 

Maybe absence does make the heart grow fonder. Or maybe it's just the escape of a different place. Eventually reality and its problems come back until they're resolved. I've got to work on that part.

Peace.

squid


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## jld

Squid, I am really glad you did not go. Your wife needed that. She needed to go alone. Please do not feel guilty in any way.

She will come back motivated to work on the marriage. 

I think that as you two work on yourselves, and on the marriage, things will come back together. So glad to hear this update.


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## AlmostYoung

Hi squid. That W missed you when she was away is a good thing. I agree with jld, it's better that you weren't there! My W has done at least 5 vacations over the last 2 and half years. On her own, with my sister, or with her GF. All good things.

You missed no "critical opportunity". You're still there, and W pretty much is too. Allow her to figure herself out while you do the same. It will all work out as it should in the end. In the mean time, ENJOY EVERY DAY!


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