# Questions about Dating and Overcoming Divorce Scars



## Greg1515

BTW Sorry for the long post. Questions are at the bottom but I felt context was important.

I've been divorced for 6 months now, but my marriage was officially over a year and a half ago. 

A quick recap of my situation. I am an extremely shy man that had not had a GF until my 30's. 

Throughout my teens, I was teased/bullied by my brother and friends about being a "kid". About not being a "man" due to being a virgin. I was really shy and avoided contact with girls. Eventually people started teasing me about being the only person that didn't know I was gay. I lived my life having very few friends and focusing on things that made me happy. Computers, sports, videogames, certain cartoons, anime's. etc.

I met my first and only GF playing online. Playing games I'm not shy. We talked for a month, and it's funny. I don't even know how I did it, but I uttered the words "Would you go out with me on a date?" . I remember thinking "Did I seriously just did that?"

She agreed. We dated for 4 months and got married. My now x-wife had the ability to give me the confidence in myself I had lacked all my life. I felt like a different person around her. However shortly after marrying her I realized there was something wrong. In nearly 5 years of marriage, from the start she was always depressed. She never got up early, never cooked, did laundry once a month, didn't want to finish college. She simply waited for me to get back from work so we could go out for lunch and dinner everyday. She kept talking about her exBF over and over. And as the months went by, she kept comparing me to him and eventually I allowed her to become the biggest bully I ever had. I took her on cruises, we traveled a ton, but she said she wished HE was there instead of me in all the places we visited. She claimed she needed a "man" in bed, not a "kid". (We never had sexual chemistry issues while dating). She would constantly gush at how her exBF was an incredible lover and I eventually caught her pleasing herself while chatting with the guy on cam when we were sleeping. That was apparently the end. 

She left me and I was devastated. I had the support of my friends and my family to help me get through this. To this day I am very grateful that they invested so much time in me to make sure I would be ok. Unfortunately I was selfish and stupid in regards to their time & help. My then-still-wife came back crying saying she realized what a monster she was to me, and that I had been nothing short of incredible to her and that she wanted a chance to prove to me she could be the wife I deserve. She claimed nothing happened with her and her exBF and that she was ready to be with me for life.

At the time I was madly in love with her, and I ignored everyone's advice and let her back into my life. After a month, the emotional abuse was back. She was no longer comparing me with her exBF but now I was being told that I wasn't good enough on a day to day basis. I wasn't rich enough like the rest of my family. She said if we ever had kids she wanted to have a sperm donor because she wanted a clear-skinned blue eyed baby. She wouldn't want to deal with a dark-skinned kid who people would call ugly. During sex , everything I did was wrong. I wasn't forceful enough, I didn't climax fast enough for her ... eventually I couldn't perform during the last week of our marriage.

We went to a marriage counselor & sex therapist to see what was wrong when she eventually confessed that the only reason she came back , was because she lived in a dysfunctional household and I was her only way out. Her brother hit her the day she came back and confessed she had to make sure I would take her back in no matter what, so she felt she had to convince me that she loved me. She said she had grown strong enough to face her family and that she didn't need to be with me anymore. She left a few days later for the last time.

She has tried to contact me saying she misses me and would like to stay friends. She said she felt she needed to feel closure and that this was really tough on her too. I didn't reply anymore. I didn't see a point. 

Now don't get me wrong. I wasn't perfect by any means. I focused too much on work, on games, on our bills at the beginning and not enough on her. I corrected that, but maybe I did it too late. And I wanted her to be a better person, instead of accepting her as she was. Despite all her faults, I feel I didn't live up to her expectations. This failure is on both of us. 

Now the reason I'm sharing this, is because I was hoping to find some answers. 

As you can imagine my self-esteem is non existant. I don't consider myself an ugly person, and I don't consider myself too socially awkward either, despite my lack of interaction. I make people laugh every time I involve myself in a conversation and in my job I'm the type of person who always jokes with my employees (I inherited the family business). However I do feel sexually awkward. I was told "You have no game whatsoever. Sex with you feel as if I'm having sex with a bumbling sibling. You have ZERO hope of sweeping me or any living creature for that matter off their feet. And I'm sorry but that is a marriage breaker to me, as it would be to any sane woman. Maybe your friends were right. Maybe you are gay and you just don't know it yet".

For the record, I respect gay people, but no, I'm not the least bit interested in having any intimacy with men. 

My questions are:

A) Friends suggested I go out on dates just for the sake of getting laid and to desensitize myself more. As someone said "You have to learn not to fall in love with the first person you have sex with, which is precisely what you did. You have to practice , practice , practice, so when the right one comes along, you have a refined GAME". When I said I had practiced for nearly 5 years he said "That doesn't count. She was insane and secondly you need to learn through variety". 

Is this really what some women want? A guy who can expertly please them, who learned through several women?

B) I really don't like to sing or dance. Yet I did both for my wife, who by the way was nice enough to say I sucked at both. I was willing to go out of my comfort zone for someone I was in love with. But I understand being an outgoing social person who goes to clubs or events and stuff has a better chance to find or be found by someone. 

Should a person learn to be good at things like singing, dancing, be more outgoing, etc .. to be socially acceptable by a wider demographic or should you hope for someone who accepts you the way you are?


I'm quite honestly afraid (damaged to a point I guess), to try and start dating, over what happened.


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## SamuraiJack

Dude...she was a borderline.
Read up on it to jumpstart your recovery.

I can tell you the certain amount of sexual prowess is always good, but its really more about following your instincts and how much chemistry you have with the other person. You have to learn to trust your instincts. More experience would expose you to more situations that could loosen you up a bit, but you really need to know yourself in order to be a better, more confident lover.
That being said, she did everything she could to bust up your mind and diminishing your prowess is a very effective way to hurt you.

Dancing and singing are social skills used to attract potential partners. Very few people sing well so that's a skill you don't need to have. 
Dancing is a skill you need.
BUT...the best part is you can suck at it and STILL woo the girl, just by telling her that you "suck at dancing but for you I will give it my all!" Then you can be as awkward as you like and still be noted for being brave and willing to risk it for her.
Two points and a possible humor point if you do it right. 

2 Rules of dancing...

1. Never EVER refuse a dance with a gal. I don't care if she is the ugliest heifer in the room and you are the beautiful bull. Just do it. Other women take note of these things.

2. The higher your hands go, the more ridiculous you look.

If you think you are bad just remember how Dr. Who (Matt Smith ) and Angel dance...that should give you some courage. 

Yes, she damaged you very well.
Fix THAT before you worry about dancing and sex.
If you fix that then you will be more prepared by virtue of being a well adjusted young man.


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## Lone Shadow

Forgive my snips. They were necessary.


> (snip)...As you can imagine my self-esteem is non existant.... (snip) ...I do feel sexually awkward. I was told "You have no game whatsoever. Sex with you feel as if I'm having sex with a bumbling sibling. You have ZERO hope of sweeping me or any living creature for that matter off their feet. And I'm sorry but that is a marriage breaker to me, as it would be to any sane woman. Maybe your friends were right. Maybe you are gay and you just don't know it yet"..... (snip)
> 
> B) I really don't like to sing or dance. Yet I did both for my wife, who by the way was nice enough to say I sucked at both. I was willing to go out of my comfort zone for someone I was in love with. But I understand being an outgoing social person who goes to clubs or events and stuff has a better chance to find or be found by someone.
> 
> Should a person learn to be good at things like singing, dancing, be more outgoing, etc .. to be socially acceptable by a wider demographic or should you hope for someone who accepts you the way you are?
> 
> 
> I'm quite honestly afraid (damaged to a point I guess), to try and start dating, over what happened.


And now to the point:

Do pushups! Until I get tired.

I'm not joking either. Go do pushups. You'll feel better, you'll develop and tone muscle groups that you didn't know you had, and as an added bonus of the above, you WILL develop some self confidence.

Step outside your comfort zone. Bask in the uncomfortableness of it. Do it with confidence. 

I have some (some? ha!) social anxiety issues. Not necessarily "social," more like crowds. I don't do crowds. I went to TGI Friday's last night after work, and Friday night as well. Game nights. The bar was so crowded that I almost turned around and walked back out, but you know what? Fvck that. I walked into the bar like I owned it. Greeted random people at the bar, said hi to a couple women sitting in a booth, greeted the bartender. And because the bartender remembered me from Friday night, my drink was already waiting for me when I sat down in the only open seat at the bar.

That many people, and that much attention, is truly painful for me to deal with. I was a mass of jello on the inside, but on the outside? My bar. And everyone knew I had arrived.:toast:


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## Ceegee

Greg,

You chose a partner that treated you as others, like your brother, treated you. 

Do you know why?

You took her back because you were still in love with her. Why would you love someone that treated you this way?

Work this out first. 

You date the way you want to date. That is the key. 

Friends always want to tell you to sleep around because that is what they think they would want. It's not the best advice for YOU. 

Focus on your needs not a potential partners needs. Choose one whose needs are in line with yours. Don't change you. A good partner will take responsibility for her needs. If you are compatible it will work out. 

Jack is right about the singing and dancing. 

You seem like a genuine guy. Don't let these other people bring you down.


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## Greg1515

SamuraiJack, Lone Shadow, Ceegee

I appreciate the feedback. 

I decided to do more research on BPD because of your post. I already had identified my Ex as a person with a Narcissistic complex as our marriage was coming to an end. I also knew that someone with the issues I'm trying to overcome is a magnet for people like her. 

What I didn't know was how hard it can be on a new partner to deal with someone who is still dealing with a BPD-Ex.

Makes me glad I inadvertently took the necessary steps to completely sever all ties with her. And yes every stereotype of a BPD breakup happened to me. I actually feel that I took a huge step forward in 2014 now.

In regards to dancing, I guess with a few drinks, (not really a fan of alcohol but I'll take a few shots if the situation calls for it), anything goes right? 

Ceegee, I hope you mean Jack is right about singing being a skill I don't need to have.

In regards to "fixing myself first", that's the tough part. I know I have made the transition from missing and yearning the good moments (after I finally realized they meant nothing the moment she admitted I was a means to an end), to now being ashamed and upset letting myself be put through that misery.

I feel I can't open myself to the idea of dating yet. I've been in lunch meetings @ my job, and rarely a song that reminds me of that relationship plays, but when it does, I lose focus. I stop hearing what people are telling me as I try to block out the music in my head. I can't be like this in front of someone I'm dating. Being reminded makes me feel sick and annoyed. 

Maybe it takes more time. Maybe it's just a matter of allowing myself to create new experiences and memories that will slowly wash away the bad ones.

And Lone Shadow, that is an awesome attitude to have. I also have social anxiety issues. I avoid crowds, I have skipped all of my high school reunions, and I don't even attend family events. The only time I will feel comfortable being amongst a crowd is when it has something to do with work. However I was recently invited to my best friend's son's baptism and I figured, "meh , why not". There were like 20 people I knew there, that I hadn't seen in 15 years. They thought they saw a ghost when I showed up. I had a good time to be honest. Everyone wanted to know what had become of me after all that time.

I guess it's just a matter of winning the battle against my inner hermit.

& Cegee

To answer your question.

Why would I love someone that treated me that way?...

I thought she had some bipolar issues and mistakenly believed deep down that she loved me. I wanted my wife to be proud of being married to me. I thought she was being immature and that she would one day be able to appreciate everything I did for her. I realize in hindsight that nobody that does a single thing she did to me could truly love me, let alone all the things combined. And yes I could fill pages with stories. My best friend told me "Dude stop. Hearing this garbage is like seeing a puppy getting skinned alive. Please forget her and move on".

I don't hate her anymore though. I hate what happened. But I think she might one day be a good wife and mother with someone she truly cares about. I just think both me and her need to be erased from each others lives completely to be able to be happy with someone else.


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## HeartbrokenW

Greg1515 said:


> But I think she might one day be a good wife and mother with someone she truly cares about.


I read your other thread, and I truly doubt it..you previously said:
_"that she married me only to see what she could take from me in a divorce, and that she never envisioned spending the rest of her life with me."_ 

just..wow. Anyone who could do this will never be happy with anyone. Its not you, its her.


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## Rowan

HeartbrokenW said:


> I read your other thread, and I truly doubt it..you previously said:
> _"that she married me only to see what she could take from me in a divorce, and that she never envisioned spending the rest of her life with me."_
> 
> just..wow. Anyone who could do this will never be happy with anyone. *Its not you, its her*.


Well, I'll agree she was crazy. But it can't have been just all her. Some of it was you, too. Because you stuck around and accepted the crazy.

Figure out why you stuck around for the crazy. And figure out how to not allow yourself to do it again. Fix you. You need to develop the tools to both recognize when someone isn't a good fit and to move on if they aren't. I imagine some intensive work on your self-esteem would probably be beneficial.


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## Ceegee

Greg1515 said:


> SamuraiJack, Lone Shadow, Ceegee
> 
> I appreciate the feedback.
> 
> I decided to do more research on BPD because of your post. I already had identified my Ex as a person with a Narcissistic complex as our marriage was coming to an end. *I also knew that someone with the issues I'm trying to overcome is a magnet for people like her.*
> 
> *Good observation. This is where you need to focus.*
> 
> What I didn't know was how hard it can be on a new partner to deal with someone who is still dealing with a BPD-Ex.
> 
> Makes me glad I inadvertently took the necessary steps to completely sever all ties with her. And yes every stereotype of a BPD breakup happened to me. I actually feel that I took a huge step forward in 2014 now.
> 
> In regards to dancing, I guess with a few drinks, (not really a fan of alcohol but I'll take a few shots if the situation calls for it), anything goes right?
> 
> Ceegee, I hope you mean Jack is right about singing being a skill I don't need to have.
> 
> *Some women may have this as a prerequisite but most do not. Find a woman who loves you for who you are and you'll never fail her. More importantly, be content with who you are. Love yourself and others will too.*
> 
> In regards to "fixing myself first", that's the tough part. I know I have made the transition from missing and yearning the good moments (after I finally realized they meant nothing the moment she admitted I was a means to an end), to now being ashamed and upset letting myself be put through that misery.
> 
> *It is tough but extremely rewarding and worth the effort.*
> 
> *You need to forgive yourself. Don't feel ashamed for having good memories because of whatever her intentions or feelings were. Learn to stop tying your feelings to hers.*
> 
> I feel I can't open myself to the idea of dating yet. I've been in lunch meetings @ my job, and rarely a song that reminds me of that relationship plays, but when it does, I lose focus. I stop hearing what people are telling me as I try to block out the music in my head. I can't be like this in front of someone I'm dating. Being reminded makes me feel sick and annoyed.
> 
> Maybe it takes more time. Maybe it's just a matter of allowing myself to create new experiences and memories that will slowly wash away the bad ones.
> 
> And Lone Shadow, that is an awesome attitude to have. I also have social anxiety issues. I avoid crowds, I have skipped all of my high school reunions, and I don't even attend family events. The only time I will feel comfortable being amongst a crowd is when it has something to do with work. However I was recently invited to my best friend's son's baptism and I figured, "meh , why not". There were like 20 people I knew there, that I hadn't seen in 15 years. They thought they saw a ghost when I showed up. I had a good time to be honest. Everyone wanted to know what had become of me after all that time.
> 
> I guess it's just a matter of winning the battle against my inner hermit.
> 
> & Cegee
> 
> To answer your question.
> 
> Why would I love someone that treated me that way?...
> 
> *Do you see a connection between your W and others you have loved in the past and how these people treat you?*
> 
> I thought she had some bipolar issues and mistakenly believed deep down that she loved me. I wanted my wife to be proud of being married to me. I thought she was being immature and that she would one day be able to appreciate everything I did for her. I realize in hindsight that nobody that does a single thing she did to me could truly love me, let alone all the things combined. And yes I could fill pages with stories. My best friend told me "Dude stop. Hearing this garbage is like seeing a puppy getting skinned alive. Please forget her and move on".
> 
> I don't hate her anymore though. I hate what happened. But I think she might one day be a good wife and mother with someone she truly cares about. I just think both me and her need to be erased from each others lives completely to be able to be happy with someone else.
> 
> *Maybe, maybe not. After D it's none of your business. That is, you shouldn't care and should focus on yourself not her.*


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## Healer

SamuraiJack said:


> 1. Never EVER refuse a dance with a gal. I don't care if she is the ugliest heifer in the room and you are the beautiful bull. Just do it. Other women take note of these things.
> 
> 2. The higher your hands go, the more ridiculous you look.


Lol!

But yes, all great advice.

I don't get the singing thing - who pushes someone to sing? Like for karaoke? Dancing yes - but singing? Now if you _can_ sing, that's great. I play guitar and sing and have gotten most of the women I've dated since divorce using this prowess. 

And yes, you should get out and bed some women and not fall in love with them. It's scary at first for sure. But you need to temper yourself and get some notches on your bedpost.

I loathe dancing. But women do seem to love it. That and "having fun" and "laughing". At least that's what 90% of them have on their dating profiles.

Join *******, POF and Tinder and see what's out there.


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## Healer

Rowan said:


> Well, I'll agree she was crazy. But it can't have been just all her. Some of it was you, too. Because you stuck around and accepted the crazy.
> 
> Figure out why you stuck around for the crazy. And figure out how to not allow yourself to do it again. Fix you. You need to develop the tools to both recognize when someone isn't a good fit and to move on if they aren't. I imagine some intensive work on your self-esteem would probably be beneficial.


When I was splitting with my cheating, coke head ex wife, everyone was like "she's awful - crazy, mean, just horrible etc etc". She was. But then one of my buddies was like "but you stayed with her. You were getting something out of it - you have your own issues". Yikes, he was right. I divorced her soon afterwards. But I was a bit crazy myself to stay with a crazy person for as long as I did.


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## 3Xnocharm

I have never in my life expected or asked a man to sing and dance, thats just ridiculous! Well, a slow dance now and then, yeah I am guilty of that...but otherwise, I myself dont dance, so no biggie! Greg, at this point, dont even give thought to a new relationship, you have too much to work out for yourself and to heal from. Besides, someone you are meant to be with will accept and love you for the person you ARE.


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## Rowan

Healer said:


> When I was splitting with my cheating, coke head ex wife, everyone was like "she's awful - crazy, mean, just horrible etc etc". She was. But then one of my buddies was like "but you stayed with her. You were getting something out of it - you have your own issues". Yikes, he was right. I divorced her soon afterwards. But I was a bit crazy myself to stay with a crazy person for as long as I did.


Yep. I've definitely been at the corner of "he's an asshat" and "I let him be an asshat to me". It's lowering, that first realization that you _allowed_ someone to treat you badly. But, then, I also found it empowering to know that being treated badly by someone who professed to love me was something I had power over - not by fixing them, but by fixing me so I could see it for what it was and move on.


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## Greg1515

@HeartbrokenW:

My wife said a lot of awful things throughout our marriage. Ultimately she was overcome with guilt and grief over the fact that she married me without being in love with me. She tried to fall in love with me, I guess she learned it doesn't work that way. She wanted to make me angry hoping I would end the relationship myself. When that failed, the emotional abuse began. 

@HeartbrokenW & @Ceegee:

The reason I even bothered to mention that I thought she would make a good wife or mother to someone else, is because I tortured myself trying to determine the reasons of my marriage's downfall. While everyone pointed the finger at her, (and some pointed the finger to me for allowing this abuse in the first place), I realized that I was wasting asking the wrong questions. I needed to ask how I can grow from this, and be wiser from it. In fact given her "good moments", I could even see her being happy with someone she truly loves. But I say that because I believe there's hope for all of us. 

@Rowan:

I completely agree. Which is why I even stated I am a magnet to people like her in my current state. The reason I tolerated the crazy was because of my insecurity issues. She spoon-fed me security in myself, then took it away. Then gave it back, then took it away again. I need to love who I am, and not tolerate that type of attitude from anyone.

And it's hard. Put yourself in my "insecure" shoes. You married the love of your life. She then goes back to her parents and doesn't want to come back. She calls me to say: "I'm not coming back." . "I don't love you. Please understand , how more clear can I be about this. I tried I failed. It's on me. There's nothing wrong with you. I'm sorry."
I said: "ok". I hung up. She calls me 1 hour later sobbing uncontrollably: "I'm sorry. I'm crazy, please don't let me do this. I love you so much, and I don't want to lose you. I don't know why I'm saying things like that. Please come get me." . As we were driving back to our home town she says: "You have no idea how grateful I am that you are my husband. I want to thank you for putting up with me and my craziness, and no matter what I say , please know that I love you more than anyone in my life"


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## ne9907

People like you make me want to be a motivational speaker. DO you realize how wonderful and amazing you are??

THe tiny particles and atoms that make you, made everything else in this vast universe!! Just the fact that you are alive, breathing, creating carbon dioxide, being a wonderful biological machine is aweinspiring! (is that a word?  )

You are the creator, the north star of your own destiny. Stop lettign other dictate who you are and how you should let your life. People who truly love you, will not use you as apunching bag.

Yes, you should start dating, it will help with your confidence and self esteem. While dating, remember to treat others as you would like to be treated. 
You are made of the same elements as the brightest star in the universe. Act like that. You are the Sun of your solar system.


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## Greg1515

Sorry, post got broken up in 2 because I hit Submit instead of preview by mistake.

@ Healer:

My Ex begged me for nearly 4 months to sing for her while dating. I finally decided to do it on our wedding day. Half a minute into my effort, she interrupts me and asks : "You've never taken signing lessons , have you?".

Ok , No more singing!.

I now how to play some musical instruments. Piano mainly. But I gave up on it entering my teens. Once my parents started asking me to perform for guests ... ugh. Also blame the internet for that. Funny side note: I did however developed an uncanny ability to remember #'s. I remember every credit card # in my wallet, the Router Wep Keys to my home, work place. Hell I even remember the SSN's of all my immediate family members. Numbers stick with me for some reason. That being said, I cannot remember where I leave my wallet 90% of the time, or where I park my car sometimes. Strange.

In regards to staying longer than I should have with a crazy person, well I'm guilty of that obviously. I did manage to convince myself I'm better off w/o her. When the divorce papers were finalized and processed 6 months later, I wrote her 1 last email containing every possible info she could need from me: previous addresses, my basic info, directions & #'s to medical offices she attended in my home town, and instructions on taxes and stuff. Since then I've gotten half a dozen emails of which I read the first, stating she misses me, that she cries when she hears certain songs, etc. I proceeded to delete that message, and the rest I didn't even bother opening, straight to trash folder.

@ Healer & @3Xnocharm:

I appreciate the words of support. I'm somewhat over her, I'm not quite yet over the whole marriage nightmare, and I'm definitely not mentally prepared to be in a serious relationship any time soon. The way I see it now, my marriage was a big first step in forging the best person I can be. I simply wasn't ready, I was irresponsible, and I should've been more cautious about settling down with someone after only 4 months (or 8 weekend dates spread out). I now know that I deserve to never be disrespected the way I was by anyone in the future. I just have to work on standing up for myself and face fears head on.


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## Lone Shadow

Ok Greg, this last post of yours doesn't read like someone with no self esteem, so even though you don't realize it, you do have areas where your confidence rules. Focus on those areas, then expand them by challenging your comfort zones.

I'm going to take a guess and say that you haven't started following my advice yet, in which case, time to beat your face. Push ups my friend, go do them.


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## Greg1515

@ ne9907:

I understand how precious life is. How improbable it was (faith aside) for life to exist on this planet from a science standpoint, let alone me being here living this second.

Even though it's been a year and a half since I last I saw my eX, I feel waiting on dating is the right thing to do. At least until I can carry a day's worth of conversation without having to mention my eX at all. Not to mention, dating is something that doesn't come easy to me.

I found great articles online that this thread inspired me to look for, like: THE GOOD WIFE - Who's helping You, when his Ex is a Borderline?

I have to be as baggage free as possible to give myself the best opportunity in a new relationship. Otherwise I'm probably wasting the other person's time.

I've ran into some existential dead ends in my life, and I would be interested in putting your motivational speaking skills to the test one day. But we'll save that for another thread.

@ Lone Shadow

I guess I should have specified that my self esteem issues come in terms of intimacy and courtship. I feel a heavy weight on my shoulders when situations like these come up. As if a voice inside is saying "she'll find you laughable as soon as you open up to her", whenever I interact with someone who might show the slight interest in me, so I just am very courteous to everyone but never show interest back. I hide my feelings.

I guess until I change this and start making the first move in these situations is when I will eliminate the risk of being a punching bag. I don't know. All I know is, I will take my time to get this resolved as best as I can.


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## bravenewworld

Greg1515 said:


> My questions are:
> 
> A) Friends suggested I go out on dates just for the sake of getting laid and to desensitize myself more. As someone said "You have to learn not to fall in love with the first person you have sex with, which is precisely what you did. You have to practice , practice , practice, so when the right one comes along, you have a refined GAME". When I said I had practiced for nearly 5 years he said "That doesn't count. She was insane and secondly you need to learn through variety".
> 
> *Is this really what some women want? A guy who can expertly please them, who learned through several women?*


Honestly, yes. Not sure if variety is needed, but I would suggest sleeping with an older woman if you are in the right headspace......an FWB situation. Let her teach you some things. 

Two easy ways to start getting great in bed - learn how to give a really good sensual massage and read "The Joy of Sex." 



Greg1515 said:


> B) I really don't like to sing or dance. Yet I did both for my wife, who by the way was nice enough to say I sucked at both. I was willing to go out of my comfort zone for someone I was in love with. But I understand being an outgoing social person who goes to clubs or events and stuff has a better chance to find or be found by someone.
> 
> Should a person learn to be good at things like singing, dancing, be more outgoing, etc .. to be socially acceptable by a wider demographic or should you hope for someone who accepts you the way you are?
> 
> I'm quite honestly afraid (damaged to a point I guess), to try and start dating, over what happened.


This is odd. I never met someone who required their man to sing/dance/etc. Well, the dancing thing I understand. If a guy absolutely refuses to dance he seems like a stick in the mud - someone who takes themselves WAY too seriously. Maybe some dancing lessons will help increase your comfort zone. 

Everyone's afraid to open up and be vulnerable. The fear itself doesn't matter, but how you deal with it does.


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## Wolf1974

op to your first question I dont think that running through 100 women just to calm your nerves is the way to go. when you meet the right woman you will learn together how to best please one another. Sex to some degree has an intangible or a chemsitry. when you have sex with someone who is on the same page with you sex is incrdible. everything feels right and everything goes right. This also means the reverse is true and when having sex with someone and it doesnt click it just never seems right and that never gets better even with practice. So basically what I am saying is it's more about with who than how many.

the second part dancing. If thats not your thing then dont do it. It's not a requirement to meet or date women. I suffer from white man no rythmitus and never had an issue meeting women. True you wont be a match for those into dancing but would you really want to be anyway? I mean if you fake interest in dancing and then meet someone who is into it then they will always want to dance. Stick to things and hobbies that interest you and find partners in those areas. their are plenty of women out there.


----------



## Lone Shadow

I agree with everything Wolf said. "White man no rhythmitus" ?? Oh! Dancing like a shovel with 2 left feet. Yep. That's me.


----------



## Rowan

Lone Shadow said:


> I agree with everything Wolf said. "White man no rhythmitus" ?? Oh! Dancing like a shovel with 2 left feet. Yep. That's me.


Yeah, if you dance like Seinfeld's Elaine, but with slightly less rhythm, then you may have White Man Syndrome. WMS is a condition that sadly afflicts many on the dating scene. 

But, really, this is not a huge issue. You won't be a good match for women who love to dance with their partner, but it isn't likely to be a deal-breaker for a lot of women. IME, guys who can dance are a bit thin on the ground, so most of us ladies have learned to just deal with it. We're surprised if a guy's a good dancer, rather than being very shocked and appalled if he isn't.


----------



## FeministInPink

bravenewworld said:


> Honestly, yes. Not sure if variety is needed, but I would suggest sleeping with an older woman if you are in the right headspace......an FWB situation. Let her teach you some things.
> 
> *Two easy ways to start getting great in bed - learn how to give a really good sensual massage and read "The Joy of Sex." *


Greg, it's not so much about wanting a man to have many previous sexual partners, it's more about wanting a man who had invested the time to be a skilled lover, and who had learned how to be responsive to his partner's cues in terms of what she enjoys and what will please her. A woman doesn't want to tell her partner what to do, she doesn't want to be giving him directions; she wants him to know and just do it. But you can't just KNOW, really--it's all about reading her language.

You're not going to learn that by jumping around from woman to woman; if you can find one partner who can teach you that in the short-term, that might be ideal for you.

I would DEFINITELY read The Joy of Sex. It's a little cheesy, but it's spot on, and it covers damn near everything, and it will get you on the right path to what I've mentioned above.



bravenewworld said:


> This is odd. I never met someone who required their man to sing/dance/etc. Well, the dancing thing I understand. If a guy absolutely refuses to dance he seems like a stick in the mud - someone who takes themselves WAY too seriously. Maybe some dancing lessons will help increase your comfort zone.
> 
> Everyone's afraid to open up and be vulnerable. The fear itself doesn't matter, but how you deal with it does.


I'm a good singer, and I love to dance. I'd like to have a guy who's into that stuff, but it's in NO WAY a requirement. Not at all. But it you want to give it a go, I think some dance lessons might go a long way.


----------



## Jellybeans

Greg1515 said:


> My questions are:
> 
> A) Friends suggested I go out on dates just for the sake of getting laid and to desensitize myself more. As someone said "You have to learn not to fall in love with the first person you have sex with, which is precisely what you did. You have to practice , practice , practice, so when the right one comes along, you have a refined GAME". When I said I had practiced for nearly 5 years he said "That doesn't count. She was insane and secondly you need to learn through variety".
> 
> Is this really what some women want? A guy who can expertly please them, who learned through several women?.


You're talking about 2 things here. The first is about your friend suggesting you bang women to "desensitize" yourself. I personally have never been into the "to get over someone, you have to get under someone" notion of "moving on." Emotionally, if you are not there yet, whether you bang one woman or 500, it's not going to make a difference. You will move on when you are ready and nobody knows when that will be except for you. You will feel it.

The second issue is about what women want sexually - this varies by person. 

My advice: do what YOU want. Not what other people tell you to. 



Greg1515 said:


> B) I really don't like to sing or dance. Yet I did both for my wife, who by the way was nice enough to say I sucked at both. I was willing to go out of my comfort zone for someone I was in love with. But I understand being an outgoing social person who goes to clubs or events and stuff has a better chance to find or be found by someone.
> 
> Should a person learn to be good at things like singing, dancing, be more outgoing, etc .. to be socially acceptable by a wider demographic or should you hope for someone who accepts you the way you are?


Again, you are caught up in what OTHER people think/want. You need to focus on what YOU want. If you want to dance/sing, go for it. If you don't want to, don't.

Live your life for you, not by what other people tell you you need to do.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

FeministInPink said:


> Greg, it's not so much about wanting a man to have many previous sexual partners, it's more about wanting a man who had invested the time to be a skilled lover, and who had learned how to be responsive to his partner's cues in terms of what she enjoys and what will please her. A woman doesn't want to tell her partner what to do, she doesn't want to be giving him directions; she wants him to know and just do it. But you can't just KNOW, really--it's all about reading her language.
> 
> You're not going to learn that by jumping around from woman to woman; if you can find one partner who can teach you that in the short-term, that might be ideal for you.


:iagree: PERFECT!!


----------



## FeministInPink

Oh, yeah, and I forgot to mention when commenting before, about bravenewworld's sensual massage suggestion...

Do this! It will help you get more intuitive about how to touch and understand a woman's body, and it will help you to feel more confident in your sexual skills/abilities as well. And it turns women into butter. She's having a bad day? The massage will release the stress for her and get her turned on. The hand-to-skin/skin-to-skin contact is magic. 

I had my first REAL massage a few years ago, not even a sensual massage, and the masseuse was male. By halfway through, I was thinking, Oh my lord, I would let this man do anything he wants to me. ANYTHING. I only go to female masseuses now... 

So if I met a guy who knew how to do the sensual massage thing, and do it well, it would be game over for me. It's not the kind of thing that you want to throw out there when you first meet a woman, but after a couple dates you could introduce the subject.

(Every man should do this, actually.)

As you become more confident in your sexual abilities and prowess, that will bleed into your confidence in talking to women, I think.


----------



## Greg1515

@bravenewworld @FeministInPink @Jellybeans @Rowan

Thank you for your candor on this subject. All perspectives and opinions are appreciated. I have read books on sex and also just like any other person who never dated back in his teens with access to internet, I can say I watched my fair share growing up.

The complaints came not from my lack of knowledge, but in the touch, timing, control of my emotions (not be serious enough)... stuff you don't get good at just by simply reading and watching.

My xW told me "I don't want to find myself teaching my husband what gives me pleasure. Why would I go through all that trouble when I can go back to my xBF or any other man for that matter who will know exactly what to do to me".

My best friend told me : "A marriage will not survive on friendship alone. Great sex is as important as the love you feel for each other. If it's not there, the marriage will ultimately fail."

His point on getting experience through several women was because he says women have different needs in bed. Subtle as they maybe, what works on one, may not necessarily be pleasing to another. You have to learn all the tricks of the trade that you can so that you have all the tools necessary to know what works on your soul mate.

@ Wolf1974

Let me tell you one aspect of my experience I haven't clearly gotten over. It has to do with the chemistry subject you mentioned. 

I'm going to reach into my memory for the purpose of context so I apologize for making this part long folks. I'll grey out what is context. My point comes afterwards.

_I was used to being alone. I have very few friends, given that I never was very outgoing, but the few friend I have are very close to me. I never had a female friend growing up, so a great deal of my thoughts and feelings on subjects that are normally relevant in discussions with the opposite sex were kept to myself bottled up. 

When I met my xW through a video game of all things, there was something different with her. I was incredibly shy and nervous with every girl I had met to that point in my life. I couldn't sustain a 1v1 conversation with a girl sitting in front of me for more than 3 minutes. I'm not kidding. But with her, there was no barrier. No reason to feel nervous. A month later, the first time I heard her voice, there was something about it that made me feel attached to her. And when I saw her for the first time on our first date (we didn't even knew what we looked like and we agreed to date because of how much we loved to talk to each other), a feeling popped inside that told me "she is your home". That wording doesn't even make sense, but I kept getting that idea in my head every time every time I looked at her. "She's home".

On our 2nd date, as I was getting ready to drive back to my home town, I stopped by my hotel prior to dropping her at her parents off to check out. I asked her to wait in the car. She followed me to the room and looked at me as I gathered my belongings. She then took her top off and asked "I'd bet you never touched one of these before?". I had a deer in the headlights look. As she walked closer to me and said "hmmm?". I started to get extremely nervous, to the point where I'm trembling on the outside and stuttering. She laughed, put her top back on and said "you missed your chance". 

By the end of the 3rd date, I asked "I'm not going to get another chance today am I?". She said "Not until I see a ring on this finger". To which I replied "ok, let's go". She thought I was kidding, but I took her to a jewelry store and she started picking out the most extravagant design adding diamonds to every place she could fit on that ring. When I got my checkbook out, she stood up and now, she was the one with the deer in the headlights look. She said "you've have got to be kidding". We left with a receipt good for a ring that would be ready in 2 months. When we got to her house she said "I guess I have to let you touch them now", I laughed and said "You don't have to". She said "But what about the ring, I thought this was your plan". I said "No... My plan was to get you a ring, you just made it easier for me.". She laughed and started crying with the widest smile I had ever seen on her and embraced me. We started having sex after the next date. In essence this is how we got along._

My xW would dare me to do things few sane people would do, and I would do them for her. We could relate countless ways and talk about anything and everything. Video Games, Religion, Women's Clothing, Wrestling, etc... I loved giving her massages everyday and she used to enjoy them. 

What depresses me is remembering her saying, that although she thought the world of me as a human being, I had to understand we just weren't sexually compatible anymore. That at some point that chemistry between us was lost. And that was a deal breaker to her. That she rather put up with an ass that could please her, than with someone like me. I asked her why didn't she mention this sooner. Why didn't she tell me she wasn't happy with my performance in bed when we dated? She said: "You weren't bad, but the excitement of corrupting that nervous man that I met wore off. And sex has been dull ever since. Sex was never dull with any of my xBF's so after 4 years, I've come to realize I need better sex than what you're ever going to be able to give me."

I try to remember that on our last sessions our marriage counselor stopped me on the way out and said "I need to see you again. Her problems are in a different league than yours. You .. I can help". Her brother told me she was either bipolar or borderline as well as many other people who interacted with her. However I'm not the type of person that rests easy simply placing the blame of my failures on others. I can't help shake the feeling that this could've worked if I had been more outgoing in my teens. If I had the experience she craved. But would I have been happy not being myself? Is life so miserable now that it's worth turning into someone else entirely?

So I guess in reality, when it comes to the sex questions, the singing the dancing, and the overall issues my wife complained about me is, how do I prevent this from happening again?

How do you keep a relationship from feeling empty for your partner when you are willing to try everything humanly possible for the opposite?

Is sex really that powerful of an element that it outweighs all other aspects of a relationship ?

PS. Sorry for the long (and somewhat ranting post), I just needed to get stuff off my chest I guess. It's been a while .


----------



## FeministInPink

Greg1515 said:


> My best friend told me : "A marriage will not survive on friendship alone. Great sex is as important as the love you feel for each other. If it's not there, the marriage will ultimately fail."
> 
> His point on getting experience through several women was because he says women have different needs in bed. Subtle as they maybe, what works on one, may not necessarily be pleasing to another. You have to learn all the tricks of the trade that you can so that you have all the tools necessary to know what works on your soul mate.


You're friend's words are true.

Your interpretation of his point is not. Yes, different women have different needs in bed. But you don't need to learn all the tricks of the trade before you meet your "soul mate." And sex with every woman is going to be different, even if you use the exact same moves, because _every woman is different_, even if they like the same stuff.

And if you meet a person who is right for you, it isn't going to matter if you've had the same number of partners, or if there's a big imbalance. If you have the emotional connection and the chemistry, none of that matters. One of the great things about being in a new relationship is learning about each others' bodies and what each other like and doesn't like. No matter how many people you get with before, sex isn't going to be perfect with a new person the first time around, because _every woman is different_.

I mentioned in my post before that a woman doesn't want to tell you what to do in bed. What I mean is that she doesn't want to be your sexual traffic cop. But a woman WILL teach you what she likes (and doesn't) through her movements, sounds, and non-verbal cues.

You don't need to be able to please every woman in the world. Just pleasing the one you're with is more than enough.



Greg1515 said:


> What depresses me is remembering her saying, that although she thought the world of me as a human being, I had to understand we just weren't sexually compatible anymore. That at some point that chemistry between us was lost. And that was a deal breaker to her. That she rather put up with an ass that could please her, than with someone like me. I asked her why didn't she mention this sooner. Why didn't she tell me she wasn't happy with my performance in bed when we dated? She said: "You weren't bad, but the excitement of corrupting that nervous man that I met wore off. And sex has been dull ever since. Sex was never dull with any of my xBF's so after 4 years, I've come to realize I need better sex than what you're ever going to be able to give me."
> 
> I try to remember that on our last sessions our marriage counselor stopped me on the way out and said "I need to see you again. Her problems are in a different league than yours. You .. I can help". Her brother told me she was either bipolar or borderline as well as many other people who interacted with her. However I'm not the type of person that rests easy simply placing the blame of my failures on others. I can't help shake the feeling that this could've worked if I had been more outgoing in my teens. If I had the experience she craved. But would I have been happy not being myself? Is life so miserable now that it's worth turning into someone else entirely?
> 
> So I guess in reality, when it comes to the sex questions, the singing the dancing, and the overall issues my wife complained about me is, how do I prevent this from happening again?
> 
> How do you keep a relationship from feeling empty for your partner when you are willing to try everything humanly possible for the opposite?
> 
> Is sex really that powerful of an element that it outweighs all other aspects of a relationship ?
> 
> PS. Sorry for the long (and somewhat ranting post), I just needed to get stuff off my chest I guess. It's been a while .


You have to learn how to make better choices when selecting a partner. Because you never really dated, you never had the opportunity to learn what's OK and what's not in how a partner treated you.

If you choose a good partner, you won't have to prevent bad behavior, because a good partner won't behave badly. 

You can't keep a relationship from feeling empty for a partner; the relationship was empty for her because SHE was empty. You are not responsible for your partner's happiness and fulfillment; she is. A healthy partner won't expect you to take responsibility for her shortcomings.

Yes, sex IS that important. Not because it outweighs all other aspects, but because it is intricately entwined and related to all other aspects of the relationship. If a couple is having sex problems, the problem in the relationship isn't the sex; other broken parts of the relationship are affecting the sex aspect.

*You need to go back to that counselor, Greg.* You need to learn how to love yourself and accept yourself, and you need to start healing these wounds from your past to move forward into a better future. So you can make better choices, and find a partner who appreciates you.

You're not going to get the answers to the questions that you're asking, and any answers you get won't solve your problems, because *you're asking the wrong questions*.

If you start asking the right questions, and dealing with the underlying issues that led to these problems, you'll get to where you want to be. But you need a therapist/counselor for that. He will help you ask the right questions, and to find the right answers.


----------



## EnjoliWoman

Greg, it sounds like you are well on your way. You didn't buy some of the hateful lies she spewed at you. But you admit your self esteem took a hit. I hear ya - mine did, too (narcissistic ex).

All you need is time and exposure. Time to heal, time to find the next special someone. Don't rush healing OR finding someone. 

Although not super experienced, I've had just enough variety to know that variety in and of itself is NOT what makes a good lover. Feeling CONNECTED is what makes a good lover. 

I suggest you start out looking for friends of both genders. You don't need to be a smooth-taking James Bond. The real women who would interest you and who would like YOU are going to be turned off by 'that' guy. Focus on your hobbies, maybe add a new one or two. Join some meet up groups and go by yourself. This is a perfect time of year because here is your conversation starter: "I made a New Year's Resolution to get comfortable going out alone so I decided to join _______ or attend _______ or come here to _______."

Take a night class in something interesting but not related to your job. You used to play piano - take a music appreciation class at your local college. Art history, pottery, astronomy... whatever you just think would be interesting or fun. You'll meet lots of new people and develop more confidence and comfort with meeting new people and you might get invitations to join a group after class. 

Several years ago I was bored, had no friends who wanted to go out so I went out alone. I felt SO awkward but went out by myself, got a drink and started talking to the person next to me. I told him I'd made a New Year's resolution to go out so many times per month even if my friends were busy. I ended up dating his friend for a little while and had a lot of fun.

You might be an excellent lover but just not the right one for HER. A great lover is just one who is perceptive enough and pays attention to his partner's responses until he learns what drives her crazy but that's different for every woman so sleepign wtih 10 women won't make you a better lover to the 11th except to know the 11th is NOTHING like the first 10.


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## Lone Shadow

> You don't need to be a smooth-taking James Bond.


But... But... James Bond has all those really super cool toys! I like super cool toys!


----------



## bravenewworld

FeministInPink said:


> Oh, yeah, and I forgot to mention when commenting before, about bravenewworld's sensual massage suggestion...
> 
> Do this! It will help you get more intuitive about how to touch and understand a woman's body, and it will help you to feel more confident in your sexual skills/abilities as well. And it turns women into butter. She's having a bad day? The massage will release the stress for her and get her turned on. The hand-to-skin/skin-to-skin contact is magic.
> 
> I had my first REAL massage a few years ago, not even a sensual massage, and the masseuse was male. By halfway through, I was thinking, Oh my lord, I would let this man do anything he wants to me. ANYTHING. I only go to female masseuses now...
> 
> *(Every man should do this, actually.)*


Agreed! My ex refused to give massages because "it made his hands hurt." The first guy I dated somewhat seriously after my divorce would literally greet me at the door with massage oil and say, "strip." 

I'm telling you - having someone work out all the knots in your neck/legs/back THEN go onto to sensually massage....um....other parts. Heaven! Definitely the sign of a generous lover. 

This is now on my dealbreakers list. "Must give sensual massages."


----------



## Lone Shadow

Hear that Greg? We both should restock our supply of massage oils.


----------



## Greg1515

Lone Shadow said:


> Hear that Greg? We both should restock our supply of massage oils.


I have a box full of Massage Oils, Scented Bath Salts, Candles, and specialty soaps my xW was a fan of that she left behind. 

I used to love to treat her to massages 30 min a day. Until things went sour and she said she didn't feel comfortable anymore.

@FeministInPink

The only observation I have against what my friend said is that, I've seen people fall out of love when the sex hasn't been an issue. Just as I've also read comments on these boards where a spouse will say that the spark was gone after XX amount of years. That they need to rekindle their passion. Those who are unable to do it, leave to find it through someone else. 

In my opinion the foundation of marriage stems from love (empathy), respect (commitment) and sex (passion). I've been thinking that maybe the emptiness that a partner experiences when a couple drifts apart is due to a lack of empathy when life happens next to each other, but not WITH each other. I think a lack of respect leads to cheating and abuse. I think marriage is the most important contract you will sign in your life. I did my best to honor mine because it reflects on every other aspect of my being. And in regards to sex, (and I'll admit my opinion is limited to my experience through 1 relationship), I think the passion in a relationship in it's beginnings stems from physical attraction to your partner. From their personalities. I admit, there has to be a certain compatibility/chemistry for that spark to ignite, however I believe that as you go through the later stages of marriage, the passion will stem from the empathy and respect you have for the life you have built together and for each other. 

In regards to this comment:
"If a couple is having sex problems, the problem in the relationship isn't the sex; other broken parts of the relationship are affecting the sex aspect." I agree with you 100%. I think we live in a society that is trying to make us believe otherwise (viagra, penis enlargement, breast implants, etc) and it's the reason why we live in a time where more 50 year old men leave their wives for 20 year olds. And a time where the term cougar exists.

I see your point too. Someone that truly loves you won't judge you in bed. They will be focused on enjoying the moment with you. 

In regards to my choice. I completely agree. I made a mistake. I will do my best not to make it again. On the positive side, as insecure as I am, now that I look back at things, the first girl I ask out says yes, and marries me. So I just need to learn from that experience and be more judgemental before I jump the gun.

I kept seeing the counselor until my divorced was finalized. She knew I would've taken my xW back had she asked in time or cancelled the process. She wanted me to be strong in case she contacted me during that time frame. Once the divorce was finalized I stopped going. She mentioned that she was concerned for me because I was "existentially" alone. Having lost my father and my wife in the same month was very difficult to process. The man who had been the most recurring presence in my life as my father and my boss, was out of my life, along with the woman who would have taken his place as the most recurring. My life plan , vanished in 1 month.

I really appreciate your feedback and I realize sitting here in front of a computer is not how I'm going to answer the questions I need to ask, but at least I don't feel alone for the moment.

@EnjoliWoman

I'm sorry you went through a narcissistic partner. Before meeting my xW I was someone who would contain my feelings very well behind a proverbial wall within myself. I let her in. I opened up. And I started being unable to control my emotions. I cried in theaters for the first time in my life a couple of years into my marriage and I ended up almost having a nervous breakdown trying to keep her happy by the end of it.

I guess I need to get over a social anxiety disorder I have. I panic in front of crowds that aren't even looking my way. I've gone to a cooking class, I plan on buying season tickets for baseball, and I guess I could do more to be more outgoing. The trick is overcoming the triple threat of social panic, insecurity & the nausea I feel whenever things that remind me of my xW come across.

@Lone Shadow

Batman had cooler toys.


----------



## Lone Shadow

Greg1515 said:


> I have a box full of Massage Oils, Scented Bath Salts, Candles, and specialty soaps my xW was a fan of that she left behind.
> 
> I used to love to treat her to massages 30 min a day. Until things went sour and she said she didn't feel comfortable anymore.
> 
> @FeministInPink
> 
> The only observation I have against what my friend said is that, I've seen people fall out of love when the sex hasn't been an issue. Just as I've also read comments on these boards where a spouse will say that the spark was gone after XX amount of years. That they need to rekindle their passion. Those who are unable to do it, leave to find it through someone else.
> 
> In my opinion the foundation of marriage stems from love (empathy), respect (commitment) and sex (passion). I've been thinking that maybe the emptiness that a partner experiences when a couple drifts apart is due to a lack of empathy when life happens next to each other, but not WITH each other. I think a lack of respect leads to cheating and abuse. I think marriage is the most important contract you will sign in your life. I did my best to honor mine because it reflects on every other aspect of my being. And in regards to sex, (and I'll admit my opinion is limited to my experience through 1 relationship), I think the passion in a relationship in it's beginnings stems from physical attraction to your partner. From their personalities. I admit, there has to be a certain compatibility/chemistry for that spark to ignite, however I believe that as you go through the later stages of marriage, the passion will stem from the empathy and respect you have for the life you have built together and for each other.
> 
> In regards to this comment:
> "If a couple is having sex problems, the problem in the relationship isn't the sex; other broken parts of the relationship are affecting the sex aspect." I agree with you 100%. I think we live in a society that is trying to make us believe otherwise (viagra, penis enlargement, breast implants, etc) and it's the reason why we live in a time where more 50 year old men leave their wives for 20 year olds. And a time where the term cougar exists.
> 
> I see your point too. Someone that truly loves you won't judge you in bed. They will be focused on enjoying the moment with you.
> 
> In regards to my choice. I completely agree. I made a mistake. I will do my best not to make it again. On the positive side, as insecure as I am, now that I look back at things, the first girl I ask out says yes, and marries me. So I just need to learn from that experience and be more judgemental before I jump the gun.
> 
> I kept seeing the counselor until my divorced was finalized. She knew I would've taken my xW back had she asked in time or cancelled the process. She wanted me to be strong in case she contacted me during that time frame. Once the divorce was finalized I stopped going. She mentioned that she was concerned for me because I was "existentially" alone. Having lost my father and my wife in the same month was very difficult to process. The man who had been the most recurring presence in my life as my father and my boss, was out of my life, along with the woman who would have taken his place as the most recurring. My life plan , vanished in 1 month.
> 
> I really appreciate your feedback and I realize sitting here in front of a computer is not how I'm going to answer the questions I need to ask, but at least I don't feel alone for the moment.
> 
> @EnjoliWoman
> 
> I'm sorry you went through a narcissistic partner. Before meeting my xW I was someone who would contain my feelings very well behind a proverbial wall within myself. I let her in. I opened up. And I started being unable to control my emotions. I cried in theaters for the first time in my life a couple of years into my marriage and I ended up almost having a nervous breakdown trying to keep her happy by the end of it.
> 
> I guess I need to get over a social anxiety disorder I have. I panic in front of crowds that aren't even looking my way. I've gone to a cooking class, I plan on buying season tickets for baseball, and I guess I could do more to be more outgoing. The trick is overcoming the triple threat of social panic, insecurity & the nausea I feel whenever things that remind me of my xW come across.
> 
> @Lone Shadow
> 
> Batman had cooler toys.


I agree. I made the mistake of talking to S7 about superheroes. Batman is his favorite. My position is that batman isn't a superhero at all, because he has no superpowers. He's just a rich kid with really cool toys. Well, that was a little over the line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EnjoliWoman

"The trick is overcoming the triple threat of social panic, insecurity & the nausea I feel whenever things that remind me of my xW come across."

Have you talked with a doctor? Maybe there is a mild anti-anxiety drug you can take ONLY when you are about to embark on something like that? To get you over the "hump". Because the nausea is probably a side effect of the anxiety. The anxiety seems to be stem from sort of a PTSD/lack of confidence combo. 

I think if you were able to take a xanax or something before a class or ball game, etc. maybe a few times doing fine would increase confidence, gradually relieve the anxiety and you can try smaller events without it until you are good to go!

I agree with your philosophy on marriage. You have learned a lot. Bonus is the next woman will reap the benefits of your experience. The trick is finding someone you are attracted to who also understands the work required and the commitment. Just don't glom on too fast to the first person you meet. There will be some heartbreak here and there so know that odds are the first person out of the gate will NOT be Mrs. Right. That's another good reason to have hobbies and other activities that do NOT involve whoever you might begin to date. Helps keep a blossoming relationship in perspective.


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## SamuraiJack

Greg1515, ty taking a 325 mg aspirin in the morning. Aspirin lowers blood pressure and may give you a slight edge. If you find that working then you could have your doctor perscribe a very mild anti-anxiety med for a short duration...like Enjoliwoman just said..

Counseling is always a good idea as well.


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## Greg1515

@EnjoliWoman, @SamuraiJack:

I was advised by the counselor who kept seeing me to take an anti-depressant. Given that at the time I couldn't sleep, I had no appetite and that I spent most of my free time crying when we finally split. 

A doctor who has looked after my well-being since I was in Jr. High (He's the father of a friend of mine) told me: "Don't take anything. You don't need this. I've known you, since you and my son played games together at school. You are a son to me. Be strong, overcome this, don't drug yourself for this. It's not worth it."

Against the counselors advice I didn't take anything and I was able to get through my divorce w/o the aid of medication.

In regards to my social panic, it's actually rather strange. I had no problems playing on teams growing up. I was focused on a goal (winning) and in some cases I led my teams. Same goes for work. I inherited a company. I deal with employees and I have no anxiety with them because the goal is clear, I am there to make sure each one of them contributes their share of productivity based on what I pay them. 

But when the games ended, when my friends got together and planned to go drinking, clubbing, etc.. to celebrate, I would shrink inside and disappear. The few times I was dragged to go with them, I never enjoyed myself in those environments. The louder and crazier it got, the gloomier I became. That has been the case all my life, EXCEPT during my marriage when for some reason I felt ok being part of it (the environment).

Since my divorce, my anxiety issues have worsened. Not to the point where I have become a hermit, but I have been a lot more reclusive ever since. It bothers me to be surrounded by a lot of people. I can't explain it. It didn't used to be this bad before marriage, and it was not the case at all during marriage.

Even though this was a bad experience, I am appreciative for what I learned:

1. Don't take your partner for granted. I did at first. But I corrected my mistake in time for it not to be a factor.
2. Don't try and change your partner. You love them because of who they are. Give them the means or the aid to grow as a person, but never expecting them to.
3. Don't change who you are for your partner. You will turn into someone they didn't fall in love with. 
4. Grow with your partner. There is a difference between growing and changing. You become knowledgeable in your partners wants and needs, not make them your own. Like a saying that went: "If you are a circle, and she's a triangle, you don't become a triangle to fit in, you grow into a sphere so that there is now depth in your life in which you can fit your partner in your life without changing the very essence of who you are".

So I guess there was a positive to all the madness. 

In regards to getting an edge through medication, I will probably need to find a different Doctor for that, given the past history of my current one.

I also stopped going to counseling because I need to break off from the habits that defined my divorce period. I will start going again once I'm able to truly make my life about myself in every way again. Otherwise I'm just wasting my time and hers.

@Lone Shadow:

Going off topic here completely but...

I actually think Batman is a very interesting super hero. He does not have a "superpower" in the conventional sense like many other Super Heroes, yet he does. His wealth. If you think about it, all super heroes were bestowed with powers. Few , if any at all , achieved them. In the same way, Bruce Wayne was granted his super power (wealth) through inheritance. I could be wrong here because my knowledge of him is limited to cartoons and movies, but Bruce Wayne is hardly ever shown being a shrewd business man that increases his wealth. It is implied. But his wealth is so vast, that it seems like a never ending source. It doesn't decay or run out like any other SH's. And it can be stolen as well like any other power of any other super hero, but my point is:

You never see the side of Bruce Wayne the shrewd business man. You see the playboy image, the philanthropist, but never the visionary, the corporate genius. Thus my theory that Batman's wealth is handled like a super power, because you never see him work for it. 

If they showed the side of Batman that earns his living by day, and deals with the crazies/loonies at the end of each day, then he'd simply be one more of us (I mean that literally btw).


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## SamuraiJack

@greg1515,
You dont need to get a new doctor, just explain to him that this is what your counselor suggested. 
I dont reccomend stopping counseling. 
They may be able to nudge you through things that you might miss. Besides its a good thing to have a sounding board even if it seems routine. I just have the feeling like this hasnt really gotten to you yet. It sounds like your protective mechanisms have activated but you havent started to look at your core issues. 

Dont minimize the idea that you just got out of a relationship with a personality type whose mission is basically to destroy people in order to show how damaged they really are.

Take some help..


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## Greg1515

SamuraiJack said:


> It sounds like your protective mechanisms have activated but you havent started to look at your core issues.


I stopped going to see the counselor for 2 reasons.

1. I got fed up with the "victim" I had turned into. I took it upon myself to disassociate from that period of my life. I needed a clean break. I didn't want to be reminded of the despair I went through after my breakup.

2. I felt I wasn't addressing the core issues. I wasn't mentally ready to address them, despite the fact that the counselor kept trying to help me focus on that. I realized I was wasting her time and my money, because I kept seeking her to gain an understanding on why my xwife did what she did. Not to work on myself. Despite my attempts to pretend otherwise.

After several months of coming to grips with my reality on my own, I am now able to not only identify some core issues, but also have a desire to work on them. I will renew my visits to the counselor, because she knows the back story, however this time around I have a map of my life and I now know where I am, and where I want to get to. I think future visits will be immensely more productive from now on.



SamuraiJack said:


> Dont minimize the idea that you just got out of a relationship with a personality type whose mission is basically to destroy people in order to show how damaged they really are.
> 
> Take some help..


Reading articles about Shari Schreiber in regards to BDP relationships and the effects on their partners has helped me greatly. While I knew and accepted she had borderline issues (Even the counselor who saw us both before the breakup tried to make see it), I couldn't help feel like a complete and utter failure. That was until I could completely relate to what Schreiber discusses on her books and articles, and I realized that not only was this not entirely my fault, it was inevitable. And yes I see now how troubled she was and how awful I was unfairly treated.


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## Lone Shadow

Batman is the CEO of a multi-national. I.. I mean, he doesn't have to do anything for the company to continue making money and adding to overall net worth. There are people on payroll that take care of that.

If you haven't been reading it yet, you should start reading through this thread. It's light hearted, and a lot of playful back and forth, but there are some real gems in there. Step out of your comfort zone and join the thread.


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## Hardtohandle

Hey Greg, 

Sorry you went through all of that and the way you're feeling..

I was a big online gamer myself, so I get the whole scenario between you and your Ex wife.. 

What I can say about how your feeling and getting distracted at work is common. It happened to me A LOT...

What I can tell you it gets better, BUT ( you knew there was a but ) YOU need to have the patience to see it get better. 

I will tell you try to get rid of the online gaming as much as you can.. Granted its a great time killer. Again I can related to running around in WoW or GW2, or some other MMO for 5 to 10 hours... I can get relate to taking the day off the new expansion is out.. Been there done that..

Our stories are a bit different in the sense I wasn't that shy as you and been together and married with my Ex wife almost 20 years.. 

But I can get where your coming from.

Also I did equate sex with love.. For me once I have sex I become very emotionally bonded with someone.. I've learned to hold back a bit.. 

But look don't be fooled about what this woman said.. Because you said something in your post which struck me odd.. You said you didn't orgasm quick enough for her.. Well I have to tell you that is actually a GOOD THING.. 

Personally I suffer from a form of retarded ejaculation.. So there are times I won't orgasum for hours or after days of sexual activity.. At first I thought it was a curse because women would get upset. They even thought I wasn't interested in them or something. 

Today I don't need to tell you I use it to my benefit.. I just say its skill or reading stuff online, like tantric stuff.. 

What happens is people fall in LUST and not LOVE after sex.. Many get it confused.. Me and you included.. 

Look having sex is the most intimate of things 2 people can do together and once you have it and its good, you pretty much want to have more with that person.. Matter of fact that is what pretty much happens after the first time.. The next time you meet someone, no matter what the intentions are to go out you probably end up in bed having sex.. 

But I digress... 

Look I can tell you I am in a room full of married men and they all tell me fvck as many women as I can.. They tell me if I wasn't married I would be never married and fvcking all I can.. 

I tell them straight out Bullsh!t.. If you wanted that you would have NEVER gotten married and had kids.. Its all bravado, bullsh!t talk so don't listen to any of it.. 

You definitely need therapy.. Go to 3 therapist and pick the one you like after a few sessions.. Most will tell you the same when you first come to them. Its a trial run and see if you like it.. 

After you picked one out of the three, go to that one and find 2 more and check them out to see. Pick one out of those three. 

I thought my first therapist was good, but I can say she was okay.. Mind you she was the head of the board of education psychology department for NYC.. Like doctors I think after time they lose their bedside manners and just go through the motions.

For me therapy was a god send ( not that I'm religious by any means of the imagination ).. 

TAM was also extremely helpful, though sometimes people can get under your skin here. Don't let that get you down though. 

Sex wise I can only tell you what my first GF told me.. I was 20 and she was 32.. We lived together for 4 1/2 years.. She was my first as well. 

Mind you at that time I was playing Ultima Online and was a Dungeon and Dragons fanatic as a teenager.. 

At that time I didn't know I had this retarded ejaculation issue, I just thought it was me jerking off so much that I just wasn't used to getting the real deal. 

Nonetheless, she told me. Look you can just fvck me and cum and be done, but if you want to make a women happy in bed you should try to make sure she is taken care of first.. She knew then we wouldn't be together forever and she was kind enough to educate me.. We are still friends till this day.. 

I can also tell you losing 85 LBS has given me much more stamina in bed as well. So being heavy and out of shape can be an issue as well and also short changing you in bed.. 

Yet another thing being heavy does to you.. It makes your penis smaller.. Simply the fat around the base of your penis makes it look smaller.. Yet again I speak from real life personal fact.. Nothing to hide here sorry.. 

Yet another thing about being less heavy.. MUCH MORE women look at me.. MUCH MORE.. Yes it makes me feel good.. 

Remember great looking guys doesn't mean they are great in bed.. Matter of fact they probably work less because of the looks. I can tell you my last GF didn't like being on top.. It was too much work for her.. She wanted to enjoy herself, otherwise its not fun. Pretty much quoted her verbatim there. But she was a VERY HOT piece of a$$ in the streets and going out.. For me I needed that at that time. It was me showing myself and my Ex wife I can be with a woman like that.. It lasted a year and a half, but I had so many issues with her.. I went from posting about my EX wife here to posting issues about her.. Sadly she couldn't get out of her own way if life depended on it.. Took me a year and a half for me to understand it and she broke it off with me, but was looking for me to ask her to come back.. Go figure that one.. 

I was so done I didn't shed a tear and was okay with it.. Mind you I missed the fvcking but too many issues attached.. 

I've learned I would rather have a great solid loving and caring 6 or 7 then the issues that come dealing with a 8 or a 9.. 

End result you do you.. Not what people want you to do.. People though I should have broken it off with her 8 months ago.. But I just wasn't ready at that time. I needed to learn somethings at my own pace..

I can only tell you what happen to me and what I learned.. 

Keep posting..


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## SamuraiJack

Greg1515 said:


> I stopped going to see the counselor for 2 reasons.
> 
> 1. I got fed up with the "victim" I had turned into. I took it upon myself to disassociate from that period of my life. I needed a clean break. I didn't want to be reminded of the despair I went through after my breakup.
> 
> 2. I felt I wasn't addressing the core issues. I wasn't mentally ready to address them, despite the fact that the counselor kept trying to help me focus on that. I realized I was wasting her time and my money, because I kept seeking her to gain an understanding on why my xwife did what she did. Not to work on myself. Despite my attempts to pretend otherwise.
> 
> After several months of coming to grips with my reality on my own, I am now able to not only identify some core issues, but also have a desire to work on them. I will renew my visits to the counselor, because she knows the back story, however this time around I have a map of my life and I now know where I am, and where I want to get to. I think future visits will be immensely more productive from now on.
> 
> 
> 
> Reading articles about Shari Schreiber in regards to BDP relationships and the effects on their partners has helped me greatly. While I knew and accepted she had borderline issues (Even the counselor who saw us both before the breakup tried to make see it), I couldn't help feel like a complete and utter failure. That was until I could completely relate to what Schreiber discusses on her books and articles, and I realized that not only was this not entirely my fault, it was inevitable. And yes I see now how troubled she was and how awful I was unfairly treated.


Spoken like somebody who is quickly coming out into the light. 
Expect some ups and downs and odd realizations when the puzzle peices fall into the puzzle.

If it helps any my ex was WOW player and pretty much lost herself in the game after she "gave up but didnt tell me"...

Havent touched a game without pause button since.


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## AFPhoenix

Greg,

I understand how an EX can mess with your confidence. When I initially went through my ordeal I thought no other woman would ever want me....far from the truth!

Try joining a Meet Up Group if there are some in your area.

It gets better my friend! After a lot of self-reflection, counseling, self-help books, dating, I am a much stronger person than I ever have been...and happier.


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## Greg1515

Hardtohandle said:


> I was a big online gamer myself, so I get the whole scenario between you and your Ex wife..
> 
> What I can say about how your feeling and getting distracted at work is common. It happened to me A LOT...
> 
> What I can tell you it gets better, BUT ( you knew there was a but ) YOU need to have the patience to see it get better.
> 
> I will tell you try to get rid of the online gaming as much as you can.. Granted its a great time killer. Again I can related to running around in WoW or GW2, or some other MMO for 5 to 10 hours... I can get relate to taking the day off the new expansion is out.. Been there done that..


Oh man, this is going to be a long reply...

Before I got married I reached cap level in 6 different MMO's. I was shy at first to talk to people online but once the nature of the games evolved and forced me to speak to my teammates I became very outspoken and involved with them.

To give you an idea of how much I used to gamed, I would get up at 6:00am to get ready to work from 7-5 . I would get home at 5:30pm and would not stop gaming until 2:00am. I would then rinse and repeat, and be ready for work the next day.

I gave up my MMO's habits for 2 reasons:

1. I realized they were fulfilling my need for human connection thus I would have found it extremely difficult to meet someone new in the future if there is no motivation or need to get out of my cave.

2. I'm in my mid 30's. I'm in charge of a company. And my assets were dwindling at the expense of my virtual currency. As respectful as I was to my self imposed work schedule, the fact was, part of my mind was still thinking about the games during work.



Hardtohandle said:


> But look don't be fooled about what this woman said.. Because you said something in your post which struck me odd.. You said you didn't orgasm quick enough for her.. Well I have to tell you that is actually a GOOD THING..


Her argument was that her xBF would orgasm within 3 min. every time they had sex. She said it was because he was so aroused by the mere sight of her that it made her feel flattered. She found it frustrating that she would orgasm 2x while I didn't. Of course what she didn't understand was, it was difficult for me to get aroused to the point of climax when your partner is instructing you to touch her the way her xBF used to. I thougth to myself: "well, if that's the feeling she's used to, I'll do my best to please her". I didn't know at the time she was just trying to humiliate me. 



Hardtohandle said:


> Nonetheless, she told me. Look you can just fvck me and cum and be done, but if you want to make a women happy in bed you should try to make sure she is taken care of first.. She knew then we wouldn't be together forever and she was kind enough to educate me.. We are still friends till this day..


My xW wanted to be used. She used to whisper to my ear that she wanted to be my disposable sex object (in crude terms). She would not enjoy me focusing on pleasing her first. But again, I'm beginning to understand that it was her BPD behavior at play.



Hardtohandle said:


> Look I can tell you I am in a room full of married men and they all tell me fvck as many women as I can.. They tell me if I wasn't married I would be never married and fvcking all I can..
> 
> I tell them straight out Bullsh!t.. If you wanted that you would have NEVER gotten married and had kids.. Its all bravado, bullsh!t talk so don't listen to any of it..


I agree 100%.



Hardtohandle said:


> I thought my first therapist was good, but I can say she was okay.. Mind you she was the head of the board of education psychology department for NYC.. Like doctors I think after time they lose their bedside manners and just go through the motions.


I stayed with mine because she had talked to both of us pre-breakup. I figured who better to help me through this, than someone who knows my xW's behavior wasn't just a figment of my imagination. I agree counseling can turn into a routine, specially if the patient doesn't have the commitment to help himself. 



Hardtohandle said:


> I can also tell you losing 85 LBS has given me much more stamina in bed as well. So being heavy and out of shape can be an issue as well and also short changing you in bed..


I'm 5"10 , and my weight has varied from 220 lbs to 145 lbs. I have fluctuated between both 3 times in my life. I have no problems losing weight. But the nature of my job sometimes puts me in environments where it's impossible to exercise or eat healthy. It also doesn't help being depressed and unmotivated, but the latter is just a vicious cycle that we ourselves have to break.



Hardtohandle said:


> I've learned I would rather have a great solid loving and caring 6 or 7 then the issues that come dealing with a 8 or a 9..


Actually, something I haven't shared with people in these forums was a big step I took towards personal growth.

Everyone used to tell my wife she looked like young a Katie Holmes. Every picture on her FB account had some sort of "OMG it's KH". So she was really cute. She took incredible care of her body so you can imagine. However, like you said, the emotional instability makes her not worthwhile to anyone who wasn't an insecure rookie like me.

We hired a girl as our secretary (mind you this was post divorce), who I actually found even more attractive than my xW. And while I am very oblivious to notice flirtation, my 2 most trusted employees joked around about weather or not I had made a move on her. They were the ones who made me realize she was flirting. I actually asked her to stop bringing miniskirts to work because they kept getting shorter and it was being a distraction to my employees. When it comes to the job, I purposely try to detach myself from feelings and desires to be more objective in my decisions.

My realization of personal growth came when I was able to pick up "red flags" with this woman as soon as I started being aware that she was flirting. She was in a 4 year relationship with a guy whom she openly expressed to other co-workers was just a plan B in her life. I would see her get gifts (she claimed were from her BF) delivered to our workplace which she would sell to my employees. While I appreciated her infectious happy go lucky attitude, and gave our workplace a woman's touch which it greatly benefited from, I learned avoid emotional attachment to people like her. I remembered hearing my counselor say "you are a magnet for women who will treat you badly in your current state". 

When the occasion to eat alone with her at the workplace inevitably arose she asked me if I was in a relationship. I told her I had just gotten divorced, and was in the process of healing. She was surprised at my answer and started taking funny jabs at me for some unexplained reason. She said she never thought someone as aloof as me could have ever been married. She quit the next day without saying a word.

So I think I passed the test of not falling for the first pretty face I'm not shy to interact with. 

I see what your saying about preferring a loving 6 over a hot 9. I actually share your sentiments after what I went through. That doesn't mean I will stereotype 9 or 10's, but I think I learned to see what to avoid in a woman before I get emotionally attached again.



Hardtohandle said:


> Keep posting..


I will. These forums are the best therapy whenever I feel uneasy with my life. And I know people grow and "get things" at a different rate. It took me months to understand words and advice given to me last year. And I see people here in these forums ignoring great advice by others. But I understand it simply takes time.

In any case. Thanks for your post. I really appreciate it.


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## Greg1515

SamuraiJack said:


> Spoken like somebody who is quickly coming out into the light.
> Expect some ups and downs and odd realizations when the puzzle peices fall into the puzzle.
> 
> If it helps any my ex was WOW player and pretty much lost herself in the game after she "gave up but didnt tell me"...
> 
> Havent touched a game without pause button since.


I had a lot of difficulty coming to grips with what happened. I was hit by the perfect storm:

A Stereotypical Extreme BPD wife. An extremely shy and insecure man who is the Perfect target for a Borderliner. To her marriage was a piece of paper. To me it was a life-long vow. Couple that with the fact that my father passed away right before the breakup and you've got a guy who is about to completely lose it.

I didn't buy the WoW expansion. As much as I craved saying hi to old friends in the game, I wanted to leave that part of my life in the past. 

Now that I'm not obsessing as heavily as I used to over the reasons of my failed marriage, I'm able to better evaluate myself. I'm going to get tested for ADHD. I looked up why I'm having difficulties tending to my responsibilities lately, and I came across this article.

10 Adult ADHD Symptoms: Disorganization, Recklessness, and More

I suffer from those 10 symptoms. So I'm curious to know if I can improve my quality of life if I get some sort of treatment.


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## Greg1515

AFPhoenix said:


> Greg,
> 
> I understand how an EX can mess with your confidence. When I initially went through my ordeal I thought no other woman would ever want me....far from the truth!
> 
> Try joining a Meet Up Group if there are some in your area.
> 
> It gets better my friend! After a lot of self-reflection, counseling, self-help books, dating, I am a much stronger person than I ever have been...and happier.


I know it gets better. It's better already. Not as great as the illusion of my first 2 years of marriage were. But I'm grateful that my xW had the decency to tell me the truth almost 5 years into our marriage and not 20 or 30. Unlike most others, she never fell out of love with me because she was never IN love in the first place. She tried to be, but it doesn't work that way as she found out.

I appreciate the words of support .


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## Hardtohandle

Greg1515 said:


> I had a lot of difficulty coming to grips with what happened. I was hit by the perfect storm:
> 
> A Stereotypical Extreme BPD wife. An extremely shy and insecure man who is the Perfect target for a Borderliner. To her marriage was a piece of paper. To me it was a life-long vow. Couple that with the fact that my father passed away right before the breakup and you've got a guy who is about to completely lose it.
> 
> I didn't buy the WoW expansion. As much as I craved saying hi to old friends in the game, I wanted to leave that part of my life in the past.
> 
> Now that I'm not obsessing as heavily as I used to over the reasons of my failed marriage, I'm able to better evaluate myself. I'm going to get tested for ADHD. I looked up why I'm having difficulties tending to my responsibilities lately, and I came across this article.
> 
> 10 Adult ADHD Symptoms: Disorganization, Recklessness, and More
> 
> I suffer from those 10 symptoms. So I'm curious to know if I can improve my quality of life if I get some sort of treatment.


I went through this after my divorce.. Depression can be the issue as well. Also remember this is a form of PTSD.. Everyone deals with this stuff differently.. 

My Ex GF husband was completely okay with the attention she got because he would deal with the stress by hiding in a bottle of booze.. I fought back and argued with her. 

But at first I thought, heck am I this crazy and insecure ? Is it me ? I asked the therapist straight out, am I NUTS ? Have I just completely lost it ? 

He laughed.. Like was mentioned when your broken some women know how to push those buttons.. Some people just need to be in control in a relationship and are not looking for 50/50 partnership.


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