# Married to a survivor of childhood sexual abuse?



## zookeeper

Hi all. First post here. I'll try to make it to the point.

My wife is a victim of childhood sexual abuse (her maternal granfather.) As a teen, she revealed this to he rparents who pretty much swept it under the rug and continued a relationship with this monster. 

I became aware of her trauma a year or two into our relationship. We have been together 14 years and married for 8. She has always had some issues with trust and fear of vulnerability but largely things were good. Shortly after marriage things started to decline and during pregancy they really began to deteriorate. We are now hanging on by a thread. In her more lucid periods she tearfully apologizes for her anger, hostility and all the rest. When the depression takes a front seat anything and everything sets her off. Or she will be constantly overwhelmed and exhausted and shuts me out entirely. 

The situation is so complex I could ramble on for hours. My questions are pretty simple:

How many of you are currently or have been married to a survivor of childhood sexual abuse/clinically depressed spouse?

Why did you stay/leave? 

Am I kidding myself that she can "get better" with all these meds and therapy? 

The whole idea of sexual abuse was very foreign to me before I met her. I just don't know if this is something a person can truly heal from or if she is "broken" permanently (as she sometimes tells me she is when she is having a breakdown episode.) 

I would love to get some different perspectives on this situation. I used to think I could endure anything for her, but I'm nearing the end of my endurance. Particularly because of my pre-school daughter. She deserves better than a home filled with tension and hostility and I am far from my best while under this strain. I don't mind investing more, but I fear I may be ignoring the 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Thanks for reading.


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## mel123

I have read that approx 27% girls & 17% of boys have suffered some type of sexual abuse as a child, not sure how true those numbers are.

Hopefully she can find an experienced councilor that has successfully treated others with with a similar past.. Best wishes


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## Thor

zookeeper, welcome aboard TAM. I am a man who has been married 30 years to a child sex abuse survivor. I never knew until a year ago when she revealed it to me as I reached the end of my rope on our marriage.

BTW, you are a "secondary survivor". 

What you describe is a fairly typical progression. The woman seems to deal with the emotional issues adequately through her teens and early 20's. When she gets married things deteriorate some. When the perp is a male relative it makes some sense. Her boyfriend is just some guy. But when they get married he jumps from being just some guy to being a relative. Now he is a male relative, and this can make him unsafe in her mind.

So she starts having difficulties due to the latent emotional trauma. Perhaps she gets triggered by sex or by displays of affection. She may have difficulties with sexual or emotional intimacy.

When she gets pregnant or gives birth (especially to a baby girl), she might become even more triggered. This was when my wife started having nightmares and rages. Other issues can pop up such as a very overprotective parenting style, or a very permissive parenting style so as to be the child's best friend rather than being the parent.

Yes the issue of being married to a child sex abuse survivor is complicated! I suggest the book "Haunted Marriage" for you. You are not alone by a long shot. I know several other men in real life who are married to sex abuse survivors, and also know numerous such men on internet support forums. I also know a number of women sex abuse survivors in real life. The ones who have had good therapy seem to be pretty well adjusted, though they are always going to have infrequent triggers or emotional reactions.

My opinion is that given the level of dysfunction you are describing, your wife is not likely to ever fully get over it. But, with good therapy there is reason to hope she will recovery substantially. We all have our quirks and weaknesses, so this will be hers. You could trade her in for another woman, but that woman will have her own quirks and weaknesses. So I think there is ample reason to try to make this work out with your wife.

Her parents sweeping it under the rug was probably as damaging to her as the abuse itself. Your wife needs competent therapy to deal with all of the issues. She probably has all kinds of misperceptions about what you think/feel about her abuse. This is complicated and you need to be educated and you need to be dialed into her recovery process via her therapist. You cannot do this alone.

Which brings up the point that your wife will have to truly commit to dealing with it.


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## dixieangel

I survived sexual abuse by my paternal grandfather, along with nearly every other trauma a child can experience. I spent my childhood counting the days until I could leave home and I planned to have a very happy life then. I certainly was going to do better than my parents. 

I did everything right. I went to college, started a career, was married for 15 years and had 3 children, stayed in a very strict religion, and had a fairly good and peaceful life. I never felt really loved by my husband though.

Second marriage I experienced infidelity and I believe it triggered me. The effects were tenfold, I suppose because of all the earlier trauma. I started doing my own research to find answers as to why my life was falling apart because doctors couldn't help me. I came across the CDCs website and an article about ACE (adverse childhood events), which explained my physical and mental health issues. So, then it dawned on me...you can't escape the damage done, no matter how good your intentions are. 

The problem is, finding the right help. I tried counseling twice, and it didn't help at all. I believe the problem is there are not enough professionals trained to deal with this. Someone suggested finding a clinical psychologist. 

I hope you can be successful at finding the right help. If she has the commitment to it, I believe that proper therapy is the key.

I wish parents knew how important it is to protect their children from trauma. I never realized how the things from childhood set the stage for the rest of our lives..even when we are determined that it won't...

My heart goes out to you both. I hope you can help your wife get the therapy she needs.


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## Daisy82

dixieangel said:


> *I wish parents knew how important it is to protect their children from trauma*. I never realized how the things from childhood set the stage for the rest of our lives..even when we are determined that it won't...
> 
> My heart goes out to you both. I hope you can help your wife get the therapy she needs.



Not trying to change the topic at hand, my thoughts go out to OP!

As a parent it is our job to protect our children! "Sweeping it under the rug" happens way to much. What does this say to your child?

With my personal experience, even at such a young age I knew what would happen if I told my parents about what was happening to me. I know that A) they might not believe me or B) if they did believe me and took action, it would destroy my extended family (aunts, uncles, grandparents). I chose to not tell. I am now 30 and I finally told my parents 2 years ago. They were shocked to say the least. Also when I became a parent myself, I made a vow to my daughter and now son, that I would do everything possible to protect them. Even if that means I'm a little over protective. 

Parents have to get their heads out of the sand and understand that there is a true threat here. It doesn't matter your race or religion or how much money you make. Take the steps to protect your children before something happens. My theory, everyone's a suspect. It may not be fair but oh well.

Again sorry for the rant, my heart goes out to OP. I'm not sure it's something that you can ever get over. For me, I found power by talking about it. Not just about what happened to me but also to other parents about prevention.


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## mel123

OP.... THor hit the nail on the head when he said "Yes the issue of being married to a child sex abuse survivor is complicated!" I was married 33 years before I found out about my wife's sexual abuse.

She always made me feel loved as a person but never made me feel wanted sexually, I was rejected a lot sexually and she made me feel like I was a pervert for wanting to do anything other than missionary and then it was like hurry up and get it over with. It really hurt my ego and self esteem but I didn't know of the abuse.

Every individual and every case is different, I just found out about 6 months ago.Like Thor said we H are the "secondary survivor" we should not have to deal with this and its not easy,or fair. But she is the real victim with the memories.


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## zookeeper

Thanks for the replies.

My wife has been in and out of counseling since she was a child. She was hospitalized a few times in her young adulthood. She did not reveal the abuse until in her late teens and all her parents did was supposedly ask him if he did it. He said no. They left it at that. This, depsite the fact that my wife's aunt claims to have been abused and one of my wife's sisters also revealed her abuse shortly afterward. 

When we were dating, I remember several instances of the grandparents visiting form out of town and staying at my in-law's house. My wife was living there at the time as well. If that's not bad enough, her father would sit the monster next to my wife at the dinner table and then give her a stern "behave" face. Had I known then what I know now I would have had trouble not sending some people to the ER. 

A year or tow after she moved in with me, I was told that there was a big anniversary party for the grandparents out of town. I was just beginning to learn of the abuse at this time My wife said she had to go and how did I know any better? I had no experience with these things. If she said it was OK I figured it was. 

I met her in Chicago on the tail end of a business trip. It is about 14 hours from where we live but we planned to drive back over a few days and have some fun. We went to the big dinner and at one point my wife's father stood up, raised his glass and toasted the animal. My wife freaked out, had a hysterical episode and insisted that we leave immediately and drive home. We left at 7:30pm and she flipped completely out at any suggestion we stop for anything, even gas. To this day I don;t know how I made that drive without sleep. This was the first glimpse I had into the damage this kind of abuse can cause.

We had our ups and downs over the next few years but with therapy, some distance from her family and my constant care taking she made a lot of improvement. We got married and had a daughter a couple years in. Pregnancy is where everything started to go off the rails. I became her enemy. She seemed angry at me almost all the time. I chalked it up to pregnancy issues but it only got worse when our daughter was born. My wife was completelty overwhelmed and nothing I did was right, even when she had told me to do it. 

When we really plunged into ther chasm is whne my daughter turned 3, the age when my wife's abuse started. It makes perfect sense that this would be a trigger, but that knowledge really does not help. My wife says she doesn't trust me, I don't care about her feelings, I'm manipulative and controlling, I don't meet my obligations, etc. Now I'm no angel, but this stuff couldn't be more false. It has gotten to the point that she insists that I have said and done things that simply did not happen. How do you cope with that?

At the beginning of the summer she ended up in the hospital's Adult Crisis Intervention Unit for a few days. Afterwards she entered a 6 week outpatient group therapy program that actually seemed to help. Unfortuantely, she began to become anxious in the last week of the program that it was ending. The progress began to reverse. She tried a new IC who is supposed to specialize in child abuse. She is now going to quit that as well. She asked me to go with her on two appointments. When the counselor refused to reinforce her view that I am the villain, she lost interest. Same thing happened in MC. 

What really spooks me is something my IC said to me not long ago. He told me that some people never get better. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I alwasy thought that if I stuck by her and supported her long enough I would eventually break through the wall. I began to think of my future as well as my daughter's. What if she never gets better? Should I sacrifice my happiness for the rest of my life? What will the tension and my wife's hostility do to my daughter as she grows up? What example am I setting for my daughter? Am I treaching her to endure abusive relationships?

I'm also worried about the parts of me that I'm losing. I'm a fun-luving, outgoing, gregarious, easy to please man by nature. I don't even recognize myself any more. Between the fear of setting my wife off and the building resenetment over the fact that I'm paying the bill that her grandfather and parents charged I have little else in me. My wife's misplaced rage and hostility flat-out wear me donw. I don't even have the energy to do the things for myself that make me happy.

I'll try to post more later, got to put the kiddo to bed. Thanks for reading my rant. It feels good to just express it somehow.


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## mel123

Op....I wish you the best my friend . My problem is nothing compared to yours.


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## Numb in Ohio

My situation is not as severe as your W, yet it is different on how it was handled "by" my H, your comment that "you are paying for her past".... was the exact same statement my H said to me. 

He would say this after he would grope, and grab at me and I would trigger. Then I would get demeaning insults.. which in turn made me feel ashamed and embarrassed about what happened "to me". 

I have finally learned that it was "not my fault" that it happened. But just someone telling you this, doesn't mean you automatically believe it.. that's where my EMDR helped. 

I also believe that I no longer have as much anxiety about my abuse because I can now bury it in my past again.. since my H and I are separated and I don't have to have those actions and words trigger me.. I'm in my "safe zone" again,,,, alone.

I wish I had words that would help you... I know you want her to get better... and I wish it were as easy as just supporting, understanding and letting her know you are beside her every step.... and no, it's not fair to you having to walk on eggshells and never knowing what's going to happen next. I hope you don't give up on her, but I hope you find a middle ground for happiness. 

Please continue to post here.. sometimes just journaling and venting is a stress relief... and to know your not alone.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

Well, someone who has experienced any kind of abuse needs to realize and accept the problems it's causing them in their relationships, and then seek help to improve their own lives. You can try to avoid her triggers, but honestly, it's an inside job, and only one that she can do herself. In my life, I've been to h*ll and back, several round trip tickets. Despite all that, through therapy and medications and persistence and staying centered and learning to communicate and be self-aware, I lead a fairly stress and drama-free life these days. You can't do it for her. If her issues are causing you trouble, the same is true of her issues causing her trouble. You can only deal with what you can control, if you can't figure it out on your own then you owe it to yourself to seek therapy in order to protect your boundaries from her not containing collateral damage from her past. It's not easy to stick with therapy, it's too easy to blame everyone else, and then to insist (when things are getting close to home) that you are doing okay. But when you really get to okay, you realize how misguided you were in prior assessments. The difference is really night and day. But you don't get there in 12 hours :-o


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## zookeeper

A few more details. My wife is on a bunch of medication, most of which seems to do little positive and a lot of negative. I have discussed the meds with pretty much all of the medical professionals we have come in contact with in the last few months. They all agree with me that medication is not the solution to my wife's problem, therapy is. The only Dr. who insists that the meds are helping is, guess who, the psychiatrist. Seems like all psychiatrists know how to do these days is pump more chemicals into people's bodies. The side effects of some of these are exacerbating the situation but my wife refuses to consider much in the way of modification because that would be me telling her what to do. Sigh...

She has not spoken to her parents in almost a year. They don't seem to mind at all. They get to enjoy their retirement in blissful denial of the situation they helped to cause. 

Our sex life was pretty good for the most part until after we got married. Currently it is awful. Infrequent and awkward. I really don't even want to try anymore but am afraid that if I refuse her occasional initiation it will humiliate her and end out sex life for good. 

Complicated...yeah that's what it is.

So, do sny of you see hope?


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

zookeeper said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> My wife has been in and out of counseling since she was a child. She was hospitalized a few times in her young adulthood. She did not reveal the abuse until in her late teens and all her parents did was supposedly ask him if he did it. He said no. They left it at that. This, depsite the fact that my wife's aunt claims to have been abused and one of my wife's sisters also revealed her abuse shortly afterward.
> 
> When we were dating, I remember several instances of the grandparents visiting form out of town and staying at my in-law's house. My wife was living there at the time as well. If that's not bad enough, her father would sit the monster next to my wife at the dinner table and then give her a stern "behave" face. Had I known then what I know now I would have had trouble not sending some people to the ER.
> 
> A year or tow after she moved in with me, I was told that there was a big anniversary party for the grandparents out of town. I was just beginning to learn of the abuse at this time My wife said she had to go and how did I know any better? I had no experience with these things. If she said it was OK I figured it was.
> 
> I met her in Chicago on the tail end of a business trip. It is about 14 hours from where we live but we planned to drive back over a few days and have some fun. We went to the big dinner and at one point my wife's father stood up, raised his glass and toasted the animal. My wife freaked out, had a hysterical episode and insisted that we leave immediately and drive home. We left at 7:30pm and she flipped completely out at any suggestion we stop for anything, even gas. To this day I don;t know how I made that drive without sleep. This was the first glimpse I had into the damage this kind of abuse can cause.
> 
> We had our ups and downs over the next few years but with therapy, some distance from her family and my constant care taking she made a lot of improvement. We got married and had a daughter a couple years in. Pregnancy is where everything started to go off the rails. I became her enemy. She seemed angry at me almost all the time. I chalked it up to pregnancy issues but it only got worse when our daughter was born. My wife was completelty overwhelmed and nothing I did was right, even when she had told me to do it.
> 
> When we really plunged into ther chasm is whne my daughter turned 3, the age when my wife's abuse started. It makes perfect sense that this would be a trigger, but that knowledge really does not help. My wife says she doesn't trust me, I don't care about her feelings, I'm manipulative and controlling, I don't meet my obligations, etc. Now I'm no angel, but this stuff couldn't be more false. It has gotten to the point that she insists that I have said and done things that simply did not happen. How do you cope with that?
> 
> At the beginning of the summer she ended up in the hospital's Adult Crisis Intervention Unit for a few days. Afterwards she entered a 6 week outpatient group therapy program that actually seemed to help. Unfortuantely, she began to become anxious in the last week of the program that it was ending. The progress began to reverse. She tried a new IC who is supposed to specialize in child abuse. She is now going to quit that as well. She asked me to go with her on two appointments. When the counselor refused to reinforce her view that I am the villain, she lost interest. Same thing happened in MC.
> 
> What really spooks me is something my IC said to me not long ago. He told me that some people never get better. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I alwasy thought that if I stuck by her and supported her long enough I would eventually break through the wall. I began to think of my future as well as my daughter's. What if she never gets better? Should I sacrifice my happiness for the rest of my life? What will the tension and my wife's hostility do to my daughter as she grows up? What example am I setting for my daughter? Am I treaching her to endure abusive relationships?
> 
> I'm also worried about the parts of me that I'm losing. I'm a fun-luving, outgoing, gregarious, easy to please man by nature. I don't even recognize myself any more. Between the fear of setting my wife off and the building resenetment over the fact that I'm paying the bill that her grandfather and parents charged I have little else in me. My wife's misplaced rage and hostility flat-out wear me donw. I don't even have the energy to do the things for myself that make me happy.
> 
> I'll try to post more later, got to put the kiddo to bed. Thanks for reading my rant. It feels good to just express it somehow.


Your wife needs to learn to protect herself better. That means sticking with her reality and not exposing herself to these unreal situations. Until she learns that she will be on her side 100% and never cave in, even if it means severing all ties to her family in order to avoid the insanity of their behavior (it is insane, nobody should ever have to dine with their abuser), she will not trust herself. The problem is, she has spent so much time having to cede to other people's version of reality that she can't possibly have a firm grasp on what is really hers. You probably have a clue as to how insecure she feels, try to multiply it by the hundreds. In the world of an abused person, those closest to you can turn on a dime. Until she learns to trust her own judgement and to have a firm grasp on the security of the reality that she has created with her choices (i.e. to be married to you), that other world is just an instant away. It's kind of like a low level paranoia, always feeling as though you are being watched, and someone is going to violate your boundaries at any given moment. Then the fear of running into an abuser or a similar situation or person, and losing it, because you're not sure what else to do. (You call your emergency number and go get sedated, lol...the idea is to have a plan that will work...)

I can tell you first hand that what your wife experienced is something that she can recover from. But it means a lot of letting go. It's not a matter of trusting you, it's a matter of her trusting herself, to be able to deal with whatever world there is in which the abuse does not exist. And accepting that while she has been dealing with the abuse, she hasn't been living a full life, in which she has actively participated. The term 'scared out of one's wits' applies. Most people who are abused can function in life, but a lot of the time their bodies and their minds/spirits are in two different places. This is how they dealt with the abuse as a child, splitting. But a person can become whole again, and while it really does take a miracle, that miracle can come in the form of therapy (and Rx if necessary.)

Don't give up, just try to be patient. Wait to see the moments when your wife seems to be in her own body, and then choose those times to discuss important stuff with her. Disengage from the times when she is out of her body, seems agitated, etc. Give her space at those times. Soon she will want to be centered more often because that will be a safe place, where she can connect with you and your child. Don't try to discuss anything with her when she is in panic mode. Do something centering, like vacuuming or cleaning something or cooking something or folding laundry. Domesticity is under-rated in terms of calming someone down.


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## zookeeper

Numb in Ohio said:


> My situation is not as severe as your W, yet it is different on how it was handled "by" my H, your comment that "you are paying for her past".... was the exact same statement my H said to me.
> 
> He would say this after he would grope, and grab at me and I would trigger. Then I would get demeaning insults.. which in turn made me feel ashamed and embarrassed about what happened "to me".


It's not that I'm paying for her past, it's that this is someone else's bill. Her grandfather, the animal who did this to her lived out the rest of his life in comfort and had the respect of his family and community. He should have been in prison. Her grandmother who allowed it to happen under her nose is still visited by the rest of my wife's family and has never had to admit to what happened. Her parents who were more concerned with their careers, money and vacations than they were about protecting TWO of their daughters get to pretend they did nothing wrong and my wife is just an ungrateful errant child. I am furious that my daughter and I suffer the aftermath of what happened while they just go about their lives. 

Back when we were dating, my wife told me that she didn't think they believed her. Why else would they still welcome her tormentor into their home? I told her I believed that it is because her parents are greedy and didn't want to risk losing their inheritance. She got angry with me and told me there was no way. A few months later we had a little summit with her parents where she planned to confront them about the situation and why they never did anything about it. At some point she repeated what I had said about the money. Her father ignored it but her mother actually admitted that that was a concern to them in time past but not anymore because it was too late for him to change his will. Can you believe that? I was in complete shock. Not that it was true but that her mother actually admitted it. I think my wife's heart broke a little more that day. 

The idea that she ever lumps me in with those people makes my stomach turn. I know it is her pain and fear that causes the distorted reality, but my daughter and I still have to live with the result. I have to consider that little girl's health and future before my own or my wife's. I guess I have some hard thinking to do.


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## zookeeper

mel123 said:


> Op....I wish you the best my friend . My problem is nothing compared to yours.


Everything is relative, right?


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## Thor

zookeeper said:


> When we really plunged into ther chasm is whne my daughter turned 3, the age when my wife's abuse started. It makes perfect sense that this would be a trigger, but that knowledge really does not help. My wife says she doesn't trust me, I don't care about her feelings, I'm manipulative and controlling, I don't meet my obligations, etc. Now I'm no angel, but this stuff couldn't be more false. It has gotten to the point that she insists that I have said and done things that simply did not happen. How do you cope with that?


zk, you are in a pretty bad situation right now. I can relate to a lot of your story, too, though my wife was more functional than yours. Enough so that I did not figure out what the underlying cause was.

The sex stopped just before the wedding. She managed to convince me it was somehow my fault, and that my expectations were unreasonable for one reason or another depending on the current circumstances. She became a different person when the first baby was born. Same as you, there was not a thing I could do right, especially as related to the baby. I knew every day she was going to blow up about something, but what it was going to be over was not known. Walking on eggshells was a good description.

I have heard very recently that she does not trust me and that I am controlling. This coming from the Queen of Control!

Don't let her convince you that you are defective, incompetent, undesirable, or a bad parent. You might consider journaling so that you have something to look back on for confirmation.




zookeeper said:


> What really spooks me is something my IC said to me not long ago. He told me that some people never get better. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I alwasy thought that if I stuck by her and supported her long enough I would eventually break through the wall. I began to think of my future as well as my daughter's. What if she never gets better? Should I sacrifice my happiness for the rest of my life? What will the tension and my wife's hostility do to my daughter as she grows up? What example am I setting for my daughter? Am I teaching her to endure abusive relationships?
> 
> I'm also worried about the parts of me that I'm losing. I'm a fun-luving, outgoing, gregarious, easy to please man by nature. I don't even recognize myself any more. Between the fear of setting my wife off and the building resenetment over the fact that I'm paying the bill that her grandfather and parents charged I have little else in me. My wife's misplaced rage and hostility flat-out wear me donw. I don't even have the energy to do the things for myself that make me happy.


Some people do not get better. Some are too damaged. Some are too afraid to really confront their issues. I am not qualified to opine on your wife's chances of getting better. You are in the position to see if she is getting better and whether she is working hard at it.

I think time is worth trying. Some, not a lot. The young daughter is a definite triggering event. As she gets older the trigger will reduce.

On the other hand, your questions and issues are quite valid. I look back at some of the insanity I put up with 20 years ago and wish I had been smart enough to bail out. I don't think I protected my daughters enough from their mother's issues. My kids have not had a good example of what a healthy marriage looks like. I have struggled for many years dealing with the bad marriage (not knowing about the abuse).

If you divorce, your daughter will have a good healthy home when she is with you. If you don't divorce and if your wife remains dysfunctional, your daughter spends 100% of her childhood in a dysfunctional home. If you divorce, you have the chance to have a much healthier marriage with another woman. These are all valid factors to consider.

I would suggest you set a deadline to decide. Maybe a year from now? Work hard for that year to get things turned around, and then assess where she is and where your marriage is. Think about what you need to see a year from now to keep the marriage going.

Yes you are paying the price for what someone else did. I think all of us secondaries have that feeling! I love my wife, I mourn for the child in her that had her childhood and really her adult life taken from her. I understand the psychological basis for many of her dysfunctional behaviors. Yet I am the one who has given years of my life to the evil done to her.


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## Thor

zookeeper said:


> She has not spoken to her parents in almost a year. They don't seem to mind at all. They get to enjoy their retirement in blissful denial of the situation they helped to cause.
> 
> Our sex life was pretty good for the most part until after we got married. Currently it is awful. Infrequent and awkward. I really don't even want to try anymore but am afraid that if I refuse her occasional initiation it will humiliate her and end out sex life for good.


Good, she needs to have no contact with her parents for now. What they did was at least as harmful as the abuse itself. They put context to the abuse. A small child has no understanding of what is happening, and it is my belief that it is the other parts of the situation which cause much of the damage. The coercion used by the abuser. The refusal of family or other trusted adults to believe the child, and the failure of adults to take action when told by the child something happened. Your wife's parents did a lot of damage to her.

On your sex life, you are making a mistake in your thought process. Do not assume anything about what your wife thinks or feels. Your "normal" adult understandings of sex, emotions, desires, and relationships cannot be projected onto her. She has very different views of those things. Why do you think she initiates sex? My wife said to me she felt guilty when it went past a year or so with no sex, so she would initiate because she knew men needed to "spurt it out" once in a while. It had nothing to do (in her mind) with love, intimacy, bonding, pleasure, desire, etc. There is no reason to believe your wife feels humiliated if you turn her down. There is no reason to believe she views sex in any way shape or form the way you do.

There is hope for you if you step back and realize you are not dealing with an adult woman. You are dealing with a hurt child.


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## indiecat

She has to recognize that she has to stop punishing you for the sins of her gnf. You are not the enemy. She is working very hard at destroying her marriage and family. My husband survived a lot of childhood abuse. We are separated now. I burned out! I finally left after realizing that my h can be nice to his friends, the neighbours, our kids. So he DOES have self control! He just chooses to vent his frustrations and anger on me and I'm done with it. 
Don't believe the IC that some people never get better. I think if they have a wake up call the vast majority of people can improve. Not 100% but to a good extent if they want to get their head out of their butts and see what they are doing to their loved ones. 
Tell her that you won't be demonized by her anymore. If she chooses to twist everything you say you just can't take that kind of misery. When she starts in on you just say STOP talking to me that way, and walk away. Don't debate or engage her. Tell her she's being hurtful and to stop it! Tell her you love her but you are done with the anger and fighting. Set a deadline as mentioned above.


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## srcampbell1975

I am a survivor of sexual/mental and physical abuse...by the hands of my step father and mother. im 37 years old and im STILL having issues with it all. ive been to therapist after therapist and currently seeing a new one. there is a time where as a victim you have to say enough is enough and heal yourself from the inside out. 
because of all that i went through at the most vulnerable periods of a childs life, and the time of my life that basically forms your outlook on people and yourself, age 4-6, its haunted me daily. I can still hear my mothers voice in my head telling me it was all my fault. I asked for the abuse, i deserved the abuse. i've been married now 3 times and 2 of those marriages failed because the husband couldnt handle it. couldnt handle my outbreaks, my seclusion, low self esteem, etc etc. But like my therapist told me yesterday, unless you have dealt with the abuse, no one will ever understand what i've gone through and why its so hard. It is not something that you can just shove to the back of your mind and forget...sure you come to a place where you can forgive, but youll never forget. Youre wife has to come to that place where she says enough is enough and shes not going to let all those things determine what kind of life or what kind of person she will be for the rest of her life. thats where i am now. I have always been a door mat to men and afraid to stand up for myself with women...but no more, i'm facing my demons little by little and day to day and working through them because thats what "I" deserve. what her family or my family has done to us is just that, and they have to face that in the end. She must know that none of it was her fault nor was it mine although that was drilled into our heads. There is soooooo much more I could say about this and your welcome to PM me and we can talk further about it...but for now, Youre both in my prayers and PLEASE for the Love of God and your lovely wife, dont give up on her...support her, help give her strength, be there even though its incredibly tough...if you walk out on her or ignore her cries, youll just be another one of the reasons for her to crawl back in her hole and shell never get through this. i'm not trying to make you feel guilty by any means, but be that stand up guy, husband and best friend that she knows is there. that she knows loves her no matter what and you will help her in any way that you can. Sometimes the strength of others helps when we are at our most vulnerable. 
God Bless!!!


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## Numb in Ohio

indiecat said:


> She is working very hard at destroying her marriage and family. My husband survived a lot of childhood abuse. We are separated now. I burned out!* I finally left after realizing that my h can be nice to his friends, the neighbours, our kids. So he DOES have self control! He just chooses to vent his frustrations and anger on me and I'm done with it. *


This is what I dealt with, but I was the one who was abused as a child. This was part of his abuse to me as I pulled away from him sexually. It's kinda like the chicken before the egg or vice versa.. I don't honestly know which came first, the abuse or my lack of sex with him. It seemed like that was the only time he was "happy",, if he didn't get sex or his way, the whole house was on high alert with his moods.
Was it his actions and words making me trigger? Was it just my way of coping with my memories? Or some other reason,, I have no freakin clue. 
But I feel I did not deserve the abuse he was dishing out because of my childhood abuse....I didn't want to be abused...

After his EA's and abuse were out in the open, my H told me that he was sexually abused by men as a child..... do I believe him? He never brought it up in counseling while we were going....


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## Thor

zk, this is always a minefield of a subject on this forum. We have survivors who might be offended or triggered by responses from secondaries. It does dampen the discussion a bit not knowing who might be reading. Another resource for you is Rape & Sexual Abuse Survivor Message Board, Support Forums & Chat Room where they have more private forums. Sign up as a Secondary Survivor to get access to the secondary forum.

So....

**Trigger Warning***

***Potentially offensive personal opinion warning***


ZK, all I know of your situation is what you have written. Your side of the story, your experience and your interpretation. I am not a therapist. My observations are from personal experience as a secondary and from having discussions (in person and on the web) with other secondaries and with CSA survivors. I am not aware of all the other cases which may or may not exist out there, such as happily recovered survivors.

While I hope that your wife will find peace, and I hope you can effect changes to have a happy marriage, I am not optimistic for you or her. She seems to be very deeply affected by whatever happened to her.

How much do you know about what CSA survivors deal with? Her deepest fear is likely that _it is true_. CSA survivors typically feel very great shame and guilt, and _they fear it is deserved_. You know your wife was victimized, but she still feels shame and guilt. She likely cannot differentiate between these *side effects* and the *actual abuse event(s)*. If she has difficulties with sexuality for example, she may have great difficulty talking with you about it or in dealing with the problem herself because it is linked to the abuse in her mind. It is difficult to explain clearly. If you tell her she is deficient as a wife in some way, and if it is related to her emotional or psychological fallout of the abuse, she will see it as you confirming she is to blame _for the abuse_.

So she may be resistant to admitting to herself even that she has real psychological issues which are causing problems in the marriage and the family. Facing the emotional issues is difficult because it can mean revisiting the abuse events. But I also believe that this incorrect linkage between the emotional side effects and the abuse is a very big factor. Talking with women who have recovered from CSA I hear very similar stories that they still sometimes have triggers and nightmares etc, but they recognize that their relationship problems were due to them failing to address the _side effects_, not that they were failing to deal with the abuse.

I also hear frequently that they had to hit a rock bottom event to wake them up. They had to be shocked into changing their world view. Right now your wife sees the world as dangerous. She sees men as predators. She in some ways is literally equating you with her abuser. She does not see you as emotionally or physically safe. She does not see you as her greatest ally. She does not understand what you feel about her. Many of the women I have talked to end up divorced before they make meaningful progress in their recoveries. Now they look back and they see how the _side effects_ badly influenced their perceptions and behaviors. (They also see how their husbands contributed to the bad marriage. To be fair, we all make mistakes in our marriages. Every problem is not due to her CSA.)

Your wife's second greatest fear is likely abandonment. Even when being treated badly she fears being abandoned. This is why many abuse survivors end up getting into future abusive relationships. They so desperately want to be accepted and they so desperately fear being rejected.

This is why regular MC and regular relationship advice fails with the CSA survivor. If you try the 180 she will feel panic. If you try to turn down the thermostat she will panic. If you tell her you will divorce her if she doesn't improve on XYZ, she will panic. She is as likely to preemptively bail on your marriage as try to improve. If you tell her you have a particular need, she may perfunctually perform it but without deep or lasting commitment.

You need to get good support for yourself. Find a local support group for Secondary Survivors, or go to individual counseling. Seek out someone who deals with PTSD because you likely have some. Your work may provide free _confidential_ counseling through an Employee Assistance Program, EAP. We tend to marry people with similar levels of dysfunction. You likely have issues of your own to explore. Maybe you're too much of a Nice Guy who rides in on his white horse to save the damsel in distress. Maybe you lack relationship skills. IDK, I'm not a therapist! You can likely benefit from some individual counseling though.

You do have the right to your own happiness. If your wife is unable or unwilling to make substantial and effective efforts to recover, you are not obligated to sacrifice yourself. Love yourself at least as much as you love her. I think you should give your marriage a good try. At some point you can know you did everything possible and if the marriage is not acceptable, it is not acceptable.


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## zookeeper

Thor said:


> You do have the right to your own happiness. If your wife is unable or unwilling to make substantial and effective efforts to recover, you are not obligated to sacrifice yourself. Love yourself at least as much as you love her. I think you should give your marriage a good try. At some point you can know you did everything possible and if the marriage is not acceptable, it is not acceptable.


This is the big issue for me. My wife has made great effort. We've been dealing with these issues from early in our relationship, they have merely intensified in the last few years. I recognize her efforts and applaud the progress she makes, but it all seems so temporary. In fact, I would go so far as to say that after a short period of improvment, we return to an even lower point than we were previously. 

I would move heaven and earth for my wife. God know I have tried. Facing the idea that she just simply may never get better is what is forcing me to consider previously unthinkable outcomes. I never thought I would consider ending this marriage. Now at 42 with a young daughter it no longer seems that I have all the time in the world. If we will be here or worse in 10 years, what am I doing to myself by staing together. At what point to I decide to save myself and my daughter? 

This is ever more complicated by the guilt I feel even considering this. I truly believe my wife would fall apart if we split up. I expect she would be hospitalized for the long-term. That is the last thing I want to see. Not just for her as the wife I love but also for my daughter. What is the greater good? I grew up with an angry, violent, explosive and unpredictable father (and yes, I'm well aware that in many ways I married his female equivalent.) I don't want my daughter to grow up in similar conditions. Perhaps my wife cannot reach rock bottom as long as she has me propping her up? Long-term professional care might be the thing that can help her overcome her pain and find happiness for herself? Ugh, my head is throbbing.

More selfishly, how much more of my life do I sacrifice to continue having my kindness and devotion spit back in my face? I don't blame her, it's not her fault but that doesn't change the fact that I am utterly miserable and hopeless living with her. I believe that the stress is taking a significant toll on my physical health in serious ways. No joke. If I am to love myself, don't I have to eventually take the actions necessary to make myself happy? Doctors don't perform CPR indefinitely, either the patient is stabilized or they pull the sheet up. 

Thanks again for reading. I think it is good for me that I am now at least allowing myself to think about possibilities. I will absolutely give her more time, maybe a year. Beyond that, I just can't say. She doesn't have to be "all better" by then, just show me real positive progress.


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## Thor

zk, about all I can say is that I understand what you are going through and I have had all of those same thoughts. It is not a simple problem to solve. There is a seemingly unresolvable conflict between loving your wife and being destroyed by staying married to her. What happened to her was not her fault, and she is making efforts to overcome it. Yet the situation is untenable for you and harmful to your child.

On the airplane the flight attendant tells you in an emergency to put on your own Oxygen mask first so that you can then help others. The same applies with an ill spouse. Take care of yourself so that you can then take care of your wife. Get counseling for yourself, and be sure to take care of your physical health. You have to take care of yourself so you can take care of your daughter.

I'm an airline captain, and something I tell my cabin crew is that there does come a point in an emergency when they have to get themselves out. They do not have to sacrifice themselves when there is no longer hope of saving any more passengers. The same applies to you, there comes a point when you have to save yourself.

Nobody would fault you today if you ended the marriage. Whichever way you go from here there will be plenty of negatives to go along with the potential positives. All you can do is your best. Ultimately the test is whether you can look yourself in the mirror and know you tried your hardest and you made your decisions with care.


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## zookeeper

Thanks, Thor. It helps a lot to know that someone else can identify in some way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov

I"m so sorry to read your story. It's quite painful.

This may sound... corny... but have either of you ever read "Self Matters" by Dr. Phil? Seriously. It's older, but worth a read.

There are other versions of what it's about... but basically it explains how mind tapes and bad memories over-ride how you feel about yourself, and it gives some practical ways to deal with it.

The point of the book is making one understand that no matter what happens to you, your "soul" (you, as a person, and your self esteem) is still quite okay. It's just buried under a whole bunch of horrible stuff. Things people said to you. Things people did to you. You believe you are a bad person, not worthy of love. A very very basic concept most counsellors and physchiatrists MISS. I don't think they understand that this basic concept isn't even known to someone who has been shattered in some way. Really.

Someone who is very deeply scarred will even do things on purpose (although they don't realise it) to sabatoge relationships. Because they don't BELIEVE anyone can love them. Because they think they are damaged goods. 

All of that said, there is the harsh reality that you should not stifle your life to rescue someone else. You are not a failure if you cannot help her overcome her tragedies in life. To me, it's more of a failure to put your life's goals aside. Enabling is just delaying.
And being a leader is one thing you can be.


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## dixieangel

Thank you Thor for your explanations about shame, guilt, and triggers. It has helped me too.


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## Uptown

zookeeper said:


> My wife has been in and out of counseling since she was a child. She was hospitalized a few times in her young adulthood. She did not reveal the abuse until in her late teens.


Zookeeper, like you, I was married for many years (15 in my case) to a woman who had been sexually abused by a close relative (her own father) when she was a child. Her two sisters also were sexually abused by the father. All three of them developed strong traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). 

Although most abused children do not develop BPD, the abuse GREATLY raises the risk of doing so. Moreover, abuse of a sexual nature is believed to be far more damaging to the child and, hence, to be more strongly associated with BPD development. Further, when sexual abuse occurs in early childhood (as happened to your W at age 3), it is believed to be far more damaging than when it occurs later in childhood. A recent study (pub. 2008) found that 70% of BPDers reported having been abused or abandoned in childhood.

It is worrisome that the behaviors you describe -- her always being "The Victim," the blame-shifting, verbal abuse, temper tantrums, rapid flips between being Jekyll and Hyde, and inability to trust you -- are some of the classic traits of BPD. Significantly, I don't know whether your W has most of the BPD traits at a strong level. I believe, however, you are capable of spotting any and all red flags that exist if you will take time to read about them. There is nothing subtle about BPD traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and inability to trust.


> She tried a new IC who is supposed to specialize in child abuse. She is now going to quit that as well.


If she has strong BPD traits, it is very unlikely she will stay in therapy long enough to make a difference. Moreover, even if the therapist figures out that she has strong BPD traits, it is unlikely he will tell her, much less tell her H. Therapists typically withhold such information from BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) for the BPDers' own protection. (For a more detailed explanation, see my post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-official-im-getting-divorced.html#post811909.) Hence, it is prudent for you to see YOUR OWN psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with.


> Same thing happened in MC.


My experience is that, if the spouse has strong BPD traits, MC is a total waste of time until her more serious issues are addressed in several years of IC. Yet, even the IC by a psychologist will be useless if the BPDer is not fully committed to working hard in therapy -- and, sadly, that is rarely the case. I say this after having spent a small fortune taking my exW to weekly visits -- for 15 years -- with six different psychologists and several MCs -- all to no avail. It did not make even a dent in her issues. It is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to work hard in therapy and stay with it long enough to make a difference.


> She seemed angry at me almost all the time. ...My wife's misplaced rage and hostility flat-out wear me down....I became her enemy. She seemed angry at me almost all the time.


If she is a BPDer, she's been carrying tremendous anger and shame inside since early childhood. You therefore do not have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing to TRIGGER a release of the anger that is already there.


> nothing I did was right, even when she had told me to do it.


If she is a BPDer, you are allowed to play only two roles if you want to stay in the marriage: one is "The Savior" and the other is "The Perpetrator." Both of those roles are acceptable to her because they both "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim." BPDers have such a weak, fragile sense of who they are that this false self image of being "The Victim" is the closest thing to a self image that they have. They therefore keep a death grip on it, constantly seeking validation.


> she insists that I have said and done things that simply did not happen.


My exW would do the same thing every week or two. This "rewriting of history" is a well known trait of BPDers. Sometimes it is simply the result of lies (when you get her cornered on admitting to a mistake). The vast majority of the time, however, it is not a lie but, rather, a projection created in her subconscious to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. Her conscious mind therefore is absolutely convinced it must be true. And, when her feelings change a week later and she is saying the exact opposite, she likely will be convinced that is true also.


> When we really plunged into the chasm is when my daughter turned 3, the age when my wife's abuse started.


Like I said, sexual abuse at that young age is especially damaging. The reason is that age 3 is when the child is trying hard to develop an integrated sense of who she is and the trauma stops that process in its tracks. The result is that the person's emotional development is frozen at the age of a 3 or 4 year old and the sense of self is never properly integrated.


> My wife is on a bunch of medication, most of which seems to do little positive and a lot of negative.


Medication can work wonders with emotional instability caused by bipolar disorder because it arises from a chemical imbalance in the body. With BPD traits, however, medication cannot make even a dent because such traits arise from a disordered thought process -- not from a chemical imbalance (as far as anyone now knows). That said, most BPDers also suffer from one or two other disorders such as anxiety, PTSD, depression, or bipolar. About 40% also have bipolar, 40% have PTSD, and about 75% of BPDers have one or two other PDs.


> At the beginning of the summer she ended up in the hospital's Adult Crisis Intervention Unit for a few days.


Has she done any self harming such as cutting, head banging, or suicide threats? I ask because self harming is strongly associated with having strong BPD traits. The cutting is usually associated with low functioning BPDers. The vast majority of BPDers, however, are high functioning and it is unusual for them to do cutting.


> Our sex life was pretty good for the most part until after we got married. Currently it is awful.


With BPDers, it is typical for the sex life to be gang-busters and fireworks during the courtship and then to go off a cliff right after the wedding. That's what happened with my exW and me. Because BPDers have such fragile egos, they cannot tolerate much intimacy. It makes them feel suffocated and engulfed by you. They therefore will push you away by creating a fight over nothing at all.


> When the counselor refused to reinforce her view that I am the villain, she lost interest.


Like I said, BPDers need frequent validation of their false self image of being "The Victim." You therefore will be blamed for every misfortune to befall her. If you would like to read more about BPD traits -- to see if they sound familiar -- I suggest you see my brief overview of them in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to excellent online resources. Take care, Zookeeper.


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## Thor

Uptown said:


> With BPDers, it is typical for the sex life to be gang-busters and fireworks during the courtship and then to go off a cliff right after the wedding. That's what happened with my exW and me.


Uptown, that whole post was excellent.

On the issue of sex falling off the cliff after the wedding, it is also a common experience with CSA alone, without the BPD. The boyfriend was just some unrelated person, but after the wedding (or close before it was my experience), the boyfriend is now a _male relative_, and is thus in the same category as the abuser if the abuser was a family member. Suddenly the husband is a trigger to the wife.

One caution I extend is that we should not put too much emphasis on diagnosis. The information can be helpful to have, and in the case of BPD the prognosis is so poor that it could lead to a quicker decision to D. Ultimately the spouse's behavior is what matters, and we have to guard against getting sidetracked into trying to diagnose our spouse's dysfunction rather than concentrating on efforts to improve ourselves and to establish boundaries and expectations in the marriage.


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## Uptown

Thor, thanks so much for the kind words.


Thor said:


> We should not put too much emphasis on diagnosis....


I agree, Thor. Only professionals can make a diagnosis, i.e., determine whether BPD or NPD traits are so severe that they meet 100% of the diagnostic guideline. There is a world of difference, however, between DIAGNOSING the disorder and SPOTTING RED FLAGS. 

Before Zookeeper graduated high school, he already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. He could identify the class drama queens -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. He could spot the kids having no respect for law or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And he could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. 

Similarly, Zookeeper will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur -- if he takes time to read about them so he knows what to look for. There is nothing subtle about BPD traits such as always being "The Victim," blame-shifting, verbal abuse, temper tantrums, rapid flips between Jekyll and Hyde, controlling behavior, and inability to trust.


> We have to guard against getting sidetracked into trying to diagnose our spouse's dysfunction rather than concentrating on efforts to improve ourselves.


Again, I agree. But, then, nobody on this thread is suggesting that Zookeeper try to diagnose anything. Only professionals can do that. Rather, I am encouraging him to spend a few hours reading about PD symptoms so he is capable of spotting the red flags (a far far easier task than determining whether those symptoms constitute full blown BPD). 

My experience is that the quickest and easiest way for an excessive caregiver to bring his own issues into focus is to spend a few hours learning how his wife is contributing to the toxic marriage. Then, by subtraction, he can more easily see the role he has played in contributing to that toxicity.

One reason this "backwards" approach seems to work so well is that caregivers like Zookeeper and me are usually convinced we are doing the right thing because, after all, we are "only trying to help" a loved one. Until we understand how deeply embedded the wife's issues are, we cannot see how pointless and counter-productive our efforts "to help" have been. Once we realize we have been foolishly expecting a wife with the emotional development of a four year old to behave like a rational adult, we very quickly see the folly of our own enabling behavior.

The _primary_ reason for using the backwards approach, however, is that we excessive caregivers have such low personal boundaries -- and so much  empathy -- that it is hard for us to figure out where _our own issues _ stop and our _wives' issues_ begin. It all blurs together, with the result that our happiness depends fully on their happiness. Hence, because it is FAR easier to see _another person's issues_ than one's own, I have found that this "teasing apart" process is greatly accelerated by taking time to have a basic understanding of the wife's contribution to the toxicity in the marriage.


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## zookeeper

Uptown said:


> One reason this "backwards" approach seems to work so well is that caregivers like Zookeeper and me are usually convinced we are doing the right thing because, after all, we are "only trying to help" a loved one. Until we understand how deeply embedded the wife's issues are, we cannot see how pointless and counter-productive our efforts "to help" have been. Once we realize we have been foolishly expecting a wife with the emotional development of a four year old to behave like a rational adult, we very quickly see the folly of our own enabling behavior.
> 
> The _primary_ reason for using the backwards approach, however, is that we excessive caregivers have such low personal boundaries -- and so much empathy -- that it is hard for us to figure out where _our own issues _ stop and our _wives' issues_ begin. It all blurs together, with the result that our happiness depends fully on their happiness. Hence, because it is FAR easier to see _another person's issues_ than one's own, I have found that this "teasing apart" process is greatly accelerated by taking time to have a basic understanding of the wife's contribution to the toxicity in the marriage.


Now that hits the bullseye. Funny that I am aware of these things yet I act out of instinct and make the same mistakes over and over again. 

She has been diagnosed with depression and PTSD.


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## Uptown

zookeeper said:


> She has been diagnosed with depression and PTSD.


Perhaps those are her only issues. Yet, relying on her _*psychologist's* _advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her *attorney's *advice during a divorce. It is important to get a professional who is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.

As I noted above, therapists typically withhold the name of the disorder from BPDers and narcissists for the protection of those sick patients. Insurance companies usually refuse to cover treatments for BPD or other PDs but will cover the treatments if the therapist lists only the comordid conditions such as PTSD, depression, bipolar, anxiety, or ADHD. For a more detailed explanation, see my post at It's official, I'm getting divorced.


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## Thor

Uptown said:


> One reason this "backwards" approach seems to work so well is that caregivers like Zookeeper and me are usually convinced we are doing the right thing because, after all, we are "only trying to help" a loved one. Until we understand how deeply embedded the wife's issues are, we cannot see how pointless and counter-productive our efforts "to help" have been. Once we realize we have been foolishly expecting a wife with the emotional development of a four year old to behave like a rational adult, we very quickly see the folly of our own enabling behavior.


I wasted years going down that path. The problem was that I was searching for the _why_ rather than dealing with the current behavior. If I could figure out _why_, I believed I could figure out _how_ to fix it.

As it turns out, most of what I did to tread water ended up being counter productive or enabling of her. Once I learned the real truth that she had a CSA history, all the pieces fell in place. Then I was able to do as you say, which was to deal with the real issues.

So the danger of looking for an accurate amateur diagnosis is that we can either settle on the wrong one or we can spend eternity searching for the right one. I am certain that had I set strong boundaries from, literally, Day 1 of the marriage things would have been far different. We probably would have been D by the end of the first year! I would not have had any understanding of my own dysfunctions and would probably have gotten into more bad relationships until I figured it out.

But at least if I had set strong boundaries and set clear expectations it would have either spurred her to seek recovery or it would have resulted in the end of the marriage. 

Anyhow, I think people should approach the diagnosis aspect with caution and restraint. Ultimately we cannot cause a cure for our dysfunctional partners even if we have a perfect diagnosis in hand. If we can find understanding of what their issues are, good. But it is folly to make that the centerpiece of trying to fix a marriage.


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## Sophie6

Well I'm a sex abuse survivor. My husband knew from the day we went on our first date. We've been through a lot in regards to my past. It had a huge effect on our relationship and sex life. Just 2 years ago I could say I was healed in regards to the abuse yet there will always be irreversible damage to my personality. I will never be the person I was before it happened. I was 7 when it started. I'm 33 now. So it took me a good 24 years to heal. I can say that I don't have any PTSD or panic attacks or flashbacks or anything like that anymore. But I still suffer from depression and OCD. I've had counselling and I am on antidepressants. My husband and I have been together for 11 years. If you truly love her then you will stay with her. Yes your daughter deserves better but she also deserves to see that marriages don't fall apart because of problems, that her father stuck by her mother and loves her. It sounds like she is in therapy and on medication? It sounds like she is doing everything she can to get better? You can't really put a timeline/deadline on this. If you can't deal with it then that's up to you. I do know how hard it is for you. My husband has dealt with it all. But remember... as hard as it is for you, it happened to her and it has to be 100x harder on her. She is the one dealing with the PTSD, flashbacks/memories and depression. She needs you. She needs you to forget about sex if she can't handle it.... put it on the back burner. The worst thing you can do is make her feel forced to have sex to keep you happy. She'll end up resenting you and sex will just be a chore/negative experience for her. Trust me I know. She needs you to be there for her, a shoulder to cry on and ears to listen when she needs to talk/cry. You may feel like it's not helping/she isn't making any progress but she is/will be. It is a very slow process. Everyone is different. Everyone copes differently and everyone heals in their own time.... some faster/slower than others. You need to be patient. If she's not coping... take your daughter out and give her some time out.... or do the housework for her or whatever you can think of to make life easier for her. It is very draining... the depression and the sex abuse memories/PTSD etc... very tiring. She is exhausted. I hope I've helped.


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## ffp20

Hi, i've read all of your comments and thought about each of them. I have reason to believe my wife was abused by her father when we were teenagers and dating. We've been married almost 25 years. One day early on dating she was upset and told me she went to her mom to complain about her fathers touching and kissing and mom blew it off by saying "at least he isnt raping you". That was the end of that, we could never touch that subject again. Sex was infrequent during our engagement. When i called her on that she told me she was stressed by me having a night job and by the stress of the upcoming wedding. She went on to say after the wedding, when we're together on our own, she would become everything i always wanted sexually. well, that never happened. In fact, on our 10 day honeymoon, it only happened twice-two quickies.
Fast forward to years of rejection, the inability to even have minor discussions of sex without her flipping out, i've damn near reached the end of my rope. I could never hold her in bed at night. She said i hurt her doing that but i always knew there was setting her off. I knew something was wrong but being young and stupid i simply assumed she didnt want sex or other intimacy with me. Later being more mature, she couldnt even accept that i needed the intimacy (physical and non physical) to develop and maintain the bond to her. To her, it was just me wanting sex,sex,sex and her being a piece of meat. 
I've read books, had IC, encouraged her to do the same but throws everything back on me. I pleased with her to go to IC with me to "help me" and she refused saying in her mind theres nothing wrong and its all me. I'm very near the end of my rope. When i mentioned several weeks ago how sad i was that she head to go to her mom for help and didnt get it. She said she didnt remember a thing about that and changed the subject. Its like she has secrets and either cant trust me, or just blocks them out so she can feel things never happened. I feel i'm close to an ultimatum of it's "deal with it or i go".
I thought about reaching out to her lifelong best friend to talk, but im afraid the wife will find out and flip out. Shes close to her father but gets easiliy annoyed by her mom. Thats hard for me to understand. I'm lost and dont know where to turn.


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## Thor

ffp, you are in a tough spot. Your story is quite similar to mine in a lot of ways.

You love your wife, and you want her to be happy. You know there is a path to her recovery, and you know you two can have a good marriage if she would work on it. You have tried to get her to see that she can have a better life and that she needs professional help to get there.

At some point you have done all you can. It is absolutely up to her as a grown adult woman to take responsibility for her own life. I have read many situations like yours, and know a number of people in real life in this situation, and unfortunately some of these women just cannot take that first step to recovery.

I think you are absolved of your responsibility to her by now. You are within your rights as a person to decide when enough is enough, and to have your own life back. When you get to that point of knowing you have done all you reasonably can, make the decision to save yourself.


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## romaniticallydenied

Hello, I have read all the threads in this and some of the other posts. I have been married 13yrs, and other than her not admitting that she was abused i can take something from everyone of the threads and relate to. So can i say for sure she was, no but I have lived all the rejection, the constant arguments about sex-"that's all i ever want" the constant threats or accusations im leaving or cheating or abusing her. I only ever wanted to be her prince charming, and if she ever agrees to sex its one of two things get it done or she takes complete control but in both cases she is not "with me" aim and there is no relationship greater than roommates. We have 2 children and my 10yr old daughter is asking questions.... Will i stick it out yes, will she i do not know...


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## Uptown

romaniticallydenied said:


> I have been married 13yrs, and other than her not admitting that she was abused i can take something from everyone of the threads and relate to.


RD, welcome to the TAM forum. I suggest that, if you would feel comfortable discussing your situation, you start your own thread. In that way, you may get some very useful comments and likely would benefit other members (and lurkers) by sharing your own experiences. In any event, welcome aboard.


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## romaniticallydenied

Noted, And will take it into consideration. I have never been one to think its all about me, its hard to make myself a focal of any discussion, but I realize that this will be a battle (not against my wife but to support and stay in the fight for her recovery) that i will need support myself and those i can relate to and learn from. Thank you


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## VegasEve

I am also a survivor. My major recent trigger was learning that it happened to my daughter by a family member. I tried so hard to break the cycle. This person was only around my family for one month when my daughter was 7, she is now 13. (Puberty is a major trigger for victims of childhood abuse) I had no idea what he was capable of (my own brother). I survived abuse by our father. When my daughter told me, I immediately called the police. They directed me to drive to the town it occurred in to make a report. Even though it was late, we drive from Vegas to Henderson and were able to track down a police officer to make a report. This happened in the end of August. He was recently arrested on Friday night (in Michigan) because of the wonderful detective work out in Henderson (Thanks God!!!) and will be extradited from Michigan to face his charge. My daughter was deeply affected by the flashback s which compelled her to finally tell me. I had to put her in homeschool. Last night, after celebrating his arrest, she decided that she would like to return to Jr. High. This indicates to me the power of believing our children and taking action. (I was not believed~ "swept under the rug"). Over the past week, since I learned of the warrant issued, I found myself confronting my father after he was talking to me about my brother. This entire week he has been harassing me, calling me names, calling me a liar, telling me to drop charges against my brother, telling me that I owe HIM an apology for everything HE went through because of what he did to ME, overall, sending very hurtful and destructive text messages. I have been in a daze... Very disconnected from my husband. This is the longest we have ever gone without having sex. I stumbled across this thread in means of helping him to understand why we are not having sex. He has been very understanding, but I can tell he is worried. I did not even make the connection between not having sex (since I stopped in the middle the last time [bad feelings], and did not do it again since).
I love him very much. He has been patient and wonderful, very supportive, but I know he is upset or feeling hurt or rejected. I try to tell him that I will be okay, but I'm not sure that he truly understands. I don't want him to give up on me. We have only been together three and a half years. I did not expect to be so affected by all this. I don't quite know how to help him to understand. I have even offered to try and have sex. He has been wonderful in telling me that "we can wait" until I'm feeling better. 
I really hope these awful, uncontrollable feelings go away after my brother is sentenced. I told my father to stop texting me. He was threatening to "ruin my life" if I did not go and drop the charges. He hasn't sent me a text since I repetitively answered his text with the same message, basically, "go f** yourself, he will be brought to justice." hopefully he will leave me alone. 

Any tips on how to comfort my wonderful husband through all of this. any ideas on when these bad feelings will go away?


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## Thor

VegasEve said:


> Any tips on how to comfort my wonderful husband through all of this. any ideas on when these bad feelings will go away?


VegasEve I am so sorry for what you and now your daughter have been through. Be sure to get good professional counseling for both of you. The online support group at aftersilence.org might be of benefit also, but it is not a substitute for qualified therapy.

It is not your job to comfort your husband. You can inform him and you can assure him of your concerns for him, but your job is to take care of yourself. There is a difference between a healthy concern for his well being (caring about him) and an unhealthy _caretaking_ of someone.

Have him read "Haunted Marriage" and also consider joining the Secondary Survivor subforum on aftersilence.org. He may also benefit from some counseling. A local support group may be of interest to him where he can talk in person with other men who are married to survivors.

Be sure you two are communicating a lot. You don't have to tell him what happened to you or any details at all, but he should know when you are feeling triggered and how he can best respond. It should also be safe for him to tell you how he is feeling. It is not a criticism of you or an accusation when he tells you how he feels. If he is feeling frustrated or confused or ignored, etc, he should be able to tell you that without it being meant as or received as something critical of you. Just like if you tell him you feel triggered when xyz happens it isn't a criticism of him it is just information that when he does that it isn't good for you.

It isn't your fault nor is it your husband's fault. It is your abuser's fault. Both of you should work at keeping that in mind.

If you are comfortable with non-sexual touching, your husband may benefit a lot from it emotionally. Men frequently have touch as a love language, so just holding hands or sitting close on the couch watching tv can convey your love to him. Just be clear that this is not a prelude to sex. You can even set up a specific moratorium or code word so both of you know there is no expectation of sex when there is touch.

Best of luck to you and especially to your daughter.


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## VegasEve

Thank you Thor,

I will look for that book. You have been very helpful


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## dixieangel

VegasEve,

My heart goes out to you and I can identify with you. I am a CSA survivor and my daughter is too. It happened when she was with her dad during summer break..her stepbrother. So, I know what you are going through. It is devastating. After Silence forums you can get alot of support and people to listen who will understand. But it is also very difficult to read other's stories...they made me cry and I had nightmares. They affected me so much I had to stop.

You know, I warned my ex husband to talk to his step sons about molestation and boundaries ... He refused and told me that they were being raised in a proper moral enviroment and they are going to church. He thought that made that kind of thing impossible. 

I am sorry you and your daughter are going through this..my heart sank when I read your post. I hope you find support and proper counseling. Know you aren't alone. If you need someone to vent to I am willing to listen.


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## VegasEve

Thank you so much DixieAngel...

Knowing what happened to my daughter has definitely destroyed me more than anything that has happened to me. I feel for you and your baby also... I hate when people hide behind religion! It's like they can do whatever they want as long as they "go to church"!!! Ugh... 

I hope you and your daughter are doing better. Has therapy helped much? My daughter is unwilling to talk right now. I took her to a session with our MFT and they did some trauma work, my daughter said that it helped, but she is not willing to continue. My MFT said that she is coping well at this time and not to push her too hard... I know that the only way to work through trauma is through therapy and I don't want her to have to deal with the repercussions when she is older (like I am), but I'm not sure if I should push her... please let me know if it has been effective for you...

Thank you so much for your supportive response. as horrible as it feels to say this, I'm glad we're not alone. I would never wish this on anyone!!! But I feel better that we are not alone in this.

Thank you <3
~ Eve


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## confusedanddetermined

*Re: Married to a survivor of childhood sexual abuse? / I feel your pain my friend*

My wife also suffered from abuse as a child and her family ostercizes and discredits her like it's going out of style. In addition to this her last relationship was abusive. The ex boyfriend is an absolute sociopath and was found guilty of assault (multiple times her and others) and holding her captive (in a closet for a day). If that's not enough we suffered a miscarriage a few months into our marriage (late October, Halloween no less). 

My wife is systematically destroying our marriage. She ropes me into conversations where I end up trying to defend our marriage as she attacks it. Inevitably she finds an opening and our marriage suffers a blow. I try to stay out of this conversation but she's right crafty. She the most beautiful person I'll ever meet in my life. Our marriage was great before the miscarriage. I don't see us making it as she is in the process of convincing herself our marriage isn't worth saving.

I'll do anything to save my marriage. If anyone has any advice I'm in a high state of listening. I appreciate the advice here and will share all that I learn as my life deteriorates. I pray we can turn it around. I'm thinking of just asking her, "do you want our marriage to survive?" I'm afraid she'll say no though and that will be that.


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## dilettante92

I'm in a similar situation, but never made the connection until recently. Once we were married and our daughter reached a certain age, I think it triggered. Now I'm dealing with both her depression and the after-effects of the abuse. I'm not OK with dealing with this for the rest of my life, including the "no sex" part. If I cant get her to stick with counseling, then I'm going to leave. I feel terrible, but the only alternative I see would be to cheat, which seems worse.


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## confusedanddetermined

dilettante92 said:


> I'm in a similar situation, but never made the connection until recently. Once we were married and our daughter reached a certain age, I think it triggered. Now I'm dealing with both her depression and the after-effects of the abuse. I'm not OK with dealing with this for the rest of my life, including the "no sex" part. If I cant get her to stick with counseling, then I'm going to leave. I feel terrible, but the only alternative I see would be to cheat, which seems worse.


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## confusedanddetermined

Hang in there. My marriage is now better than it's ever been. Try not to engage her in arguements. (looking back I wish I had tried the "yes dear, I'm sorry dear" approach. Make sure she knows you won't give up on her. If you decide to cheat, just leave instead. Once you've cheated its over anyway.


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## Bobby5000

I think it is unfair of these women to be very nice while people are going out and then spring the abuse thing after marriage, as a justification to not have a real marriage.


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## confusedanddetermined

Bobby5000 said:


> I think it is unfair of these women to be very nice while people are going out and then spring the abuse thing after marriage, as a justification to not have a real marriage.


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## confusedanddetermined

I don't believe it's intentional. My wife certainly didn't do anything intentional to mislead my. BTW my marriage is unbelievable now. To everyone in this situation. Just give her space and let her know you're there for her when she gets past her pain. She will then kn ow you truly love her and that she can trust you.


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## ook

You make it sound so easy....


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## confusedanddetermined

ook said:


> You make it sound so easy....


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## confusedanddetermined

My mistake. It was anything but easy. I prayed a lot and tried to do some things for myself here and there (play golf and the like) since I had the time all of a sudden (wife moved out for a while). It was very much worth it and I'd do it all again fifty times if I had to though. Hang in there and find someone to talk to so you don't feel alone. You aren't alone my friend .

I should also mention counseling SUCKED! We tried two. What a waste of dough. Even though my wife hated me at the time she actually said she felt sorry for me during the second attempt. I'm sure there are good counselors out there. Sadly I can name two that aren't though.


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## becomingstronger

Those words are so inspirational for me right now confused & determined. I am currently staying with my parents as my wife wanted out of the marriage. She made this clear the week before she started counselling for her childhood. I have quickly transitioned from husband to friend & really want to be there for her while she relives her ordeals. However I also can't imagine living the rest of my life without her as my wife. I'm "becomingstronger" by working on myself personally & learning to take care of myself mentally.


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## hurtandc0nfused

It is really amazing to hear all of your stories. I have been married for 12 years, found out about the childhood abuse (she was abused by her female babysitter for more than 2 years) a little over 2 years ago. 

Since then she has had an epiphany (1 year 7 months ago) where she decided she was no longer straight and that she no longer loved me and was not sure if she had ever loved me. She has dealt with depression for our entire marriage with meds, but they have not done the trick. 

She has been seeing an IC for more than 3 years. She went into a psych hospital 2 years ago for 2 weeks when she was considering suicide. That did not seem to help much. Things progressed slowly downhill from there, until she finally moved out in June of 2012. She moved back in this January when I confronted her about divorce and told her we had to tell the kids (all boys, 18, 10, 3). She cried and said she would try to work out the marriage again and moved back in. 

Fast forward now to last night and she was checked back into a psych hospital because of suicidal thoughts and the downward spiral again. 

I have done everything I possibly can to stay married to her, but she consistently tries to push me away. 

I feel as if the abuse is the main catalyst in all of this but she does not seem to want to deal with it anymore. She pushes that away and says that is not the problem. She tries to turn the focus onto her sexuality or the fact that it seems to be fluid as it has gone from straight to thinking she was a lesbian to now thinking she is at least bi. 

On top of all of that, she was raped when she was 17 repeatedly by not one but 7 guys. This produced our 18 year old who I adopted when he was 6.

I say all of this to let everyone know that if you choose to stay with your spouse, you can be sure that it will be a rocky and tumultuous time at best. I feel like it is my duty to stay married to the woman I love, although she does not show love towards me. We have not had sex since her epiphany back in February 2012. 

I keep asking myself why I stay but it has to do a lot with the fact that I made a commitment to her and the fact that I would be truly worried for her safety if I ever left. 

I care for this woman as my best friend and wife. I am constantly praying that this current stint in the psych hospital will do the trick and bring me my wife back, the woman I fell in love with all those years ago. For those of us dealing with survivors of sexual abuse, I pray for all of you as well. Try to work on communication with your spouse as best you can. Find a good MC. This can be tough and time consuming as you may go through a few before you find the right one. Stick with it. Your spouse is worth it. We are on our 3rd MC now but seem to have found one that we both like. He does not pick sides but pushes both of us to be better partners. 

One thing that other message boards have taught me is to ensure I do things on my own for my own sanity and well being. I have been doing that for quite awhile now and have found many benefits of it. 

Feel free to PM me with any comments or questions. Stay strong and keep talking to anyone that will listen. Talking about it does make it a little easier to handle.

Thanks


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## ShockwaveRider

All of the posts in this thread have nearly moved me to tears. My ex-wife (who just passed away recently) was abused by her uncle when she was around 10 years old. So many times I would fantacize about going to visit her uncle and torturing him to death for what he did to her. And, like others have posted, her family denied everything and even allowed this sick SOB to babysit other female family members. I fear that a lot of skeletons are going to be rattled out of the closet one of these days.

Some victims of childhood sexual abuse really never do get better. I know my wife never did. We'd make love, fall asleep in each other's arms, I would awake and lie there with her across my chest, smelling her hair and caressing the soft warmth of her body. She'd wake up screaming that she "had been sexually assaulted" by her uncle, or some gang of men, or something. Just when you think you're experiencing the best, most beautiful, loving morning of your life, the childhood sexual abuse trauma rears its ugly head and ruins the whole thing.

I have a TREMENDOUS LOATHING of any man who would abuse a child, sexually or otherwise. I seriously think they should be killed. So do alot of men in prison. Some of my co-workers (back in the days I worked construction) who had done time in prison told me that child molestors do very, very poorly in prison. Many inmates will accept you if you beat up a man in a bar fight, but they sure as heck won't accept you if you molest a child.

Best of luck to anybody dealing with this issue because for me, it was a losing battle. And the real tragedy is the effect it has on the person who was abused, whose ability to really truly love and trust another person is greatly diminished.

Shockwave


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## Thor

hurtandc0nfused said:


> I have done everything I possibly can to stay married to her, but she consistently tries to push me away.
> 
> I feel as if the abuse is the main catalyst in all of this but she does not seem to want to deal with it anymore. She pushes that away and says that is not the problem. She tries to turn the focus onto her sexuality or the fact that it seems to be fluid as it has gone from straight to thinking she was a lesbian to now thinking she is at least bi.
> 
> On top of all of that, she was raped when she was 17 repeatedly by not one but 7 guys. This produced our 18 year old who I adopted when he was 6.


Hurt, hi.

One thing I have observed over time is that the abuse (or rape) victim desperately wants to avoid blaming the abuse or the rape event because she has not separated in her mind the event itself from the psychological side effects. With sex abuse as a child she was not old enough to understand anything about the situation from a sexual or a psychological standpoint. You and I can understand with total clarity that she was the victim. No matter what the circumstances, a child is not capable of giving informed consent for sexual activity of any kind. Yet many victims feel guilty or complicit, and it adds to their shame.

So she feels horribly shamed about the abuse, and she feels horribly ashamed of herself, and she feels guilty for it happening.

Now her husband comes along and says the abuse is the cause of marital problems or the cause of her dysfunctions in relationships. Keeping in mind her shame and guilt, you can see that she now feels she has been deeply shamed and blamed by her husband for all the problems.

This is a very delicate line to try to walk with your wife. She has to accept that there are _side effects_ from what was done to her, which are *separate from* what was done to her. Depression, nightmares, sexual dysfunction, etc are all side effects.

We would not blame the robbery victim for being victimized by a criminal, and we do not blame the CSA or rape victim. Yet she blames herself. It is however reasonable to expect the robbery victim to seek treatment for injuries and to make strong efforts to overcome the emotional trauma.

At some point I think it is fair to say that this person is not making an acceptable level of effort or progress in dealing with the trauma. I think it is also fair to say that it was deeply wrong of her to withhold from you for so long the fact of her abuse. We know why she withheld it, but it was still wrong. You and your marriage are casualties of the crime also.

Best of luck to you and your family.


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## hurtandc0nfused

Thor said:


> Hurt, hi.
> 
> One thing I have observed over time is that the abuse (or rape) victim desperately wants to avoid blaming the abuse or the rape event because she has not separated in her mind the event itself from the psychological side effects. With sex abuse as a child she was not old enough to understand anything about the situation from a sexual or a psychological standpoint.


Hello Thor,

Thanks for your comments. I can not agree with you more with regards to your comment above. We discussed this in MC at one point and the therapist stated that she was raped by 7 men while she was drugged up by the same men. My wife was completely shocked by that statement. She had never considered the fact that regardless of whether or not she was drugged up, it was not her fault. She blamed herself for going back time and again to the same house. She has a hard time accepting the fact that these scumbags drugged her and took advantage of her. To this day she still has a hard time saying it and that was over 18 years ago.

You are right that we all walk a fine line when it comes to addressing the issues of our spouses past. They are often times even protective of the scum that did this to them. My wife was sexually abused by a female babysitter for more than two years. This happened between the ages of 8-10. She still says she has feelings for the monster that did this to her. I strongly believe this is where her sexuality issues come from. But trying to suggest that to the W is very difficult. 

All I can say is to keep praying, and keep supporting the spouse. The funny thing is that I am watching Shawshank Redemption and Morgan Freeman's character just said that hope has no business in jail. We are in a form of jail being married to a spouse who was abused and sometimes there seems like there is no hope. Hope is how I survive on a daily basis.


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## bewilderness

Bobby5000 said:


> I think it is unfair of these women to be very nice while people are going out and then spring the abuse thing after marriage, as a justification to not have a real marriage.


Unfair? So it's the victim's responsibility to go around shouting from the rooftops, "I'm damaged goods"?

It's not bad enough that they carry the shame and grief of sexual abuse around for the rest of their lives? They also have to *warn* people? 

Has it ever occurred to you that some victims of sexual abuse may not be able to talk about what happened to them? They may not even understand that what happened was wrong, illegal, and incredibly hurtful?

You know what is unfair? Sexual abuse. That's unfair. Start there.


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## bewilderness

To the OP:

You sound like someone who is genuinely hurting and genuinely confused about what is going on with your wife.

I second the recommendations for therapy for both you and your wife, as well as marital counseling.

The best advice I can give you is this: be on her team. What most sexual abuse survivors feel (especially those whose parents swept it under the rug) is that no one cares. No one listens. They will never be protected. They will never be rescued.

You can't rescue your wife from what happened -- but you can be an advocate for her now. You can be her voice.

She also needs to take some responsibility for her own health and well-being. I don't believe that some people will always be broken. I really don't. I think that with the right combination of therapy, caring family members, medicine, education and advocacy, many survivors can start to take charge of their lives again.

Pregnancy and childbirth are HUGE triggers, for sure. She needs help finding a way to separate her feelings about her past from her feelings for you. 

I highly recommend mindfulness-based stress reduction. Jon Kabatt-Zinn has some books on this. There may also be classes in your area. I have participated in them myself. I will not say they were easy. I will say they were extremely helpful.

Best of luck to both of you.


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## bunny23

This happened to me when I was around 13, with an uncle. My mother continued to not see it as a big deal (he did not rape me)

We moved.

The uncle then did this to his 13 yo daughter, and even worse because it was ongoing. 
Uncle died.

My mother still had his picture up all over the house and actually purchased the cologne he would wear and spray it (it was very specific)

Anyway, at that point I had it. I told her flat out that I am OUTING her and him out to the whole family, because this was a huge secret since we were all scattered around the world.
I realized how much this event influenced me and that I thought about it over and over.
Still she kept a picture- even after I told her how hurtful that was.

And so I told EVERYONE what he did. I told his mother (my grandmother), my dad... 

The picture is gone and I don't think about it anymore.

Let me just say that my situation was NOTHING compared to what others suffer and I know it was easier to let it go after I realized how much support I had, and that my mother was not able to see how far things could have gone with him. Or understand that she was hiding a sexual predator.

With all that being said, has anyone that went through this been able to speak to a counselor that specifically deals with these issues and EXPOSE the person and confront the family about them allowing this?

Your wife (to any OP who posted) will need professional advice before and after considering this. But it may help, no matter what the results are.


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## markster

Hi:

I am in much the same boat as you. 

Not saying I have all or even some of the answers you seek, nor am I an expert on anything besides living through my own situation, but you may want to look at a Personality Disorder for some more clarity on the situation.

I too had no idea what was going on or what to make of my wifes' behaviour either. I then stumbled upon info regarding Borderline Personality Disorder and it answered a lot of questions for me. The symptoms went a LOT further than anything else I could use to explain it. 

What is essential is that she needs to seriously consider counselling for the pain she is in personally and inflicting on you. My particular situation has my wife refusing to believe that she is part of the problem which makes it much harder. If your wife can consider that she is not responsible for the abuse, but IS responsible for her behaviour stemming from it, then it will go much better.

Good luck.
Mark


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## Thor

markster said:


> I too had no idea what was going on or what to make of my wifes' behaviour either. I then stumbled upon info regarding Borderline Personality Disorder and it answered a lot of questions for me. The symptoms went a LOT further than anything else I could use to explain it.


When I first found descriptions of Borderline, it seemed similar to my wife's behavior, but it just never really fit. I thought of her as BPD-ish, or BPD-lite, though I never bought into her having real BPD.

Once I learned of her abuse and a bit about how it affects people, all of the pieces fit. She is not BPD.

One of the high correlations with real BPD is a trauma history. Personality disorders and PTSD seem to go together. In any case, the behaviors are not healthy for anyone involved. I do caution people from diagnosing their spouse, because none of us are professionals, nor are we unbiased observers. Sometimes the online descriptions of a disorder totally fit, but still it should be seen as an unofficial guess.




markster said:


> * If your wife can consider that she is not responsible for the abuse, but IS responsible for her behaviour stemming from it, then it will go much better.*


:iagree: Totally completely perfectly accurate.


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## Really!?!?

This is my first post,... however I've followed this thread since the original post in Oct 2012. All I can say is, "Really!?!?".

Meaning, there really are people such as myself who have gone through this,... as a secondary survivor,... not to minimize the abuse and trauma of the CSA survivor themselves.

I am a husband of a CSA survivor, of whom she was violated at a very early age, and also raped as an adult. 

We have been married for 15 years,.... however the emotional turmoil and roller coaster effects of her CSA/Rape abuse, is literally killing me and our relationship.

I am currently on the outs with our marriage, and my W has stated yet again, she wants a divorce. We have been through this several times, and each time it has hit me as a complete ambush and sabotage. 

All the posts I've read, ring true to my experiences, and some are so eerie, that it brings chills to my soul.

Thor, I must say that you are a wealth of knowledge and support, especially from someone who was only made aware of their spouses abuse not too long ago, yet married for nearly 30+ years.

I recall one post (perhaps not on this thread) where you described the boyfriend stage transitioning to the "engagement/married" phase, when the transformation of the boyfriend to spouse, actually translates into the "adult male authority figure relative", which puts the husband into the same category as her abuser. 

This couldn't have described my situation more accurately,.... and the crazy thing is that my W does not see this at all, yet I am living the curse of her abuser's actions. She says she loves me,.... but is "not in love with me, nor has romantic/intimate or sexual desires for me anymore". As most have posted,.... the sex was great before the marriage,... but once married, it changed and became less frequent. 

Another post that ZK wrote, stated, "my wife says she doesn't trust me, I don't care about her feelings, I'm manipulative and controlling, I don't meet her obligations, there's no connection, etc,... Now I'm not an angel, but this stuff coudn't be more false. It has goten to the point that she insists that I have said and done things that simply did not happen,...".

When I read that,.... I was shocked at how accurately is pertained to my situation!!!! I'm also somehow validated,... yet, disturbed and worried at how close to home it struck a nerve in my situation. 

The unfortunate thing, is that the W has been in therapy on and off for 25 years,... but most recently (nor much in the past) hasn't been working on "her" stuff and the CSA trauma,... but more focused in therapy on "my issues" and our "marriage problems". In her eyes, I have been the focus of her problems, therefore once I'm gone, her problems go away. We've done this dance for 15 years,.... and it's just not fair.

I'm a good person, love my wife and children dearly, and do the best I can financially to support them. I make 90% of the income in our family, yet combined with all my other efforts including cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc,.... and being emotionally supportive for all her "drama" - it's not enough. I'm always to blame for what I didn't do, what I did wrong, or something I did that created a "trust issue". 

Another Thor post stated, "One thing I have observed over time is that the abuse (or rape) victim desparately wants to avoid blaming the abuse or the rape event because she has not seperated in her mind the event itself from the psychological side effects. With Sex Abuse, as a child she was not old enough to understand anything about the situation from a sexual or a psychological standpoint.

Unfortunately,... I find this statement to be incredibly accurate based on my experience and relationship with my spouse.

Most her family has denied and/or minimized the abuse that occured, and have tried to cover it up the best they could,.... to protect other individuals in the family who were also abused. It's tragic really,.... and the abuser in the family never had to pay for his crimes nor take accountability. All too familiar the situation based on what I've researched and read in this thread, books, and learned in therapy. It's incredible how this dysfunction is so readily allowed by families and loved ones.

At this point, we are getting a divorce - yet she is still living in the house, and does not plan on moving out for another 2 months or so. Recently, I discovered she may be dating, of which is driving me nuts!!!! My fear is that if I force her out right away, it will only put her into an even more emotional upheaval, and let her start having multiple sexual encounters without much regard how it looks to our family and children. For now, at least I can keep an eye on her - and hope she somehow "defrosts" from this current chasm she's in. The "defrost" has happened several times over the last 15 years, so I am desperately grasping on to hopes that it will happen again. However, this time - since she may already be dating, I don't think a "defrost" will be happening again any time soon,.... and if so, after it's too late.

Any advice?


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## Uptown

Really, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm sorry to hear that you find yourself in such a toxic marriage to an unstable woman.


Really!?!? said:


> The emotional turmoil and roller coaster effects of her CSA/Rape abuse, is literally killing me and our relationship.


Have you read about BPD to see if your W is exhibiting the warning signs for that disorder? I ask because, as I mentioned in post #26 above, BPD is strongly associated with childhood abuse and abandonment -- especially with CSA at an early age. Another reason I ask is because some behaviors you describe -- i.e., always being "The Victim," inability to trust, and need to create drama -- are symptoms of BPD.


> I am currently on the outs with our marriage, and my W has stated yet again, she wants a divorce. We have been through this several times....


If she has strong BPD traits, that is to be expected. Marriages and other LTRs with a BPDer typically go through multiple breakup/reconciliation cycles before finally ending. A BPDfamily survey, for example, found that a third of them have 6 or more breakup/recon. cycles before ending -- and two thirds have at least 3 such cycles before ending.


> The transformation of the boyfriend to spouse, actually translates into the "adult male authority figure relative", which puts the husband into the same category as her abuser....This couldn't have described my situation more accurately,.... and the crazy thing is that my W does not see this at all.


I agree with you and Thor that you are describing a transformation of your role from BF/lover to "adult male authority figure relative." Indeed, I would say you've transformed to "parent" if your W exhibits strong BPD traits, because her emotional development in that case would be stuck at the level of a four year old.

If so, HER perception would not be to see you transforming from lover to parent. Rather, she would see you transforming from "savior" to "perpetrator." I say this because, with BPDers, you will be tolerated in the relationship only if you continue to "validate" their false self image of always being "The Victim." There are only two roles that allow you to do that. One role is for you to be "The Savior," which means of couse that your W must be "The Victim" or you would not be trying so hard to rescue her. That is the role you play during the honeymoon period and occasionally thereafter (on the increasingly rare days that she splits you white).

As soon as her infatuation over you evaporates, you will immediately be relegated to playing "the Perpetrator," which means you will be blamed for every mistake and misfortune to befall her. In this way, she continues to receive "validation" that she is a perpetual victim.


> As most have posted,.... the sex was great before the marriage,... but once married, it changed and became less frequent.


It is common for the courtship period to be extremely passionate -- and for sex to go off a cliff after the wedding -- whenever the spouse suffers from strong traits of narcissism, sociopathy, or BPD. With narcissism and sociopathy, you would be witnessing "bait and switch" because you've been deceived and manipulated during the courtship period.

With BPDers, however, the spouse typically is not being manipulated or lied to. Because a BPDer is able to fall in love, she is so caught up in the infatuation that she is convinced she has met her savior and soul mate, the man who has come to rescue her from unhappiness. She is able to be so passionate and intimate during this period only because her infatuation holds her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. Hence, as soon as the infatuation evaporates, those fears return and she starts exhibiting her BPD traits.


> It has gotten to the point that she insists that I have said and done things that simply did not happen,..."


As I discussed in post #26 above, this is to be expected if your W has strong BPD traits because BPDers (those with strong traits) frequently will "rewrite history" in their minds. Because it is done subconsciously to protect their fragile egos from seeing too much of reality, they will be absolutely convinced -- at a conscious level -- that the absurd claim is true.


> The W has been in therapy on and off for 25 years,... but most recently (nor much in the past) hasn't been working on "her" stuff and the CSA trauma.


Again, if she is a BPDer, that result is to be expected. It is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to work hard on her own issues in therapy. My BPDer exW, for example, went to weekly sessions for 15 years with six different psychologists, at enormous expense to me. It did not make a dent in her behavioral problems. Not one dent. On the contrary, her behavior got worse over those years.


> I have been the focus of her problems, therefore once I'm gone, her problems go away. We've done this dance for 15 years.


Likewise, Zookeeper reports having had a 14 year toxic relationship and I had a 15 year marriage. I therefore found it interesting that a therapist, who claims to have treated many BPDer couples, said that BPDer relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. They last *18 months*, he explained, when the Non has strong personal boundaries. The Non enjoys the 6 month honeymoon period of mirroring and then is willing to spend up to a year trying to reestablish the honeymoon conditions. Then he bails.

The relationship lasts about *15 years*, he explained, when the Non has strong codependency traits and thus low personal boundaries. Such a Non typically never bails. Instead, the BPDer leaves him because, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. Also, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. 

This explanation struck a strong chord with me because my relationship lasted 15 years, at which time my wife had me arrested on a trumped up charge. That gave her an opportunity to file a restraining order barring me from my own home for a year and a half (when the divorce was finalized).


> I'm always to blame for what I didn't do, what I did wrong, or something I did that created a "trust issue".


Yes, if your W has strong BPD traits, you will be blamed no matter what you do or do not do. Just by being in the room with her, you will be blamed for painful thoughts she has because, to protect her from that pain, her subconscious will project the thoughts and feelings onto you. In that way, she will be convinced that the thoughts and feelings are originating from you, not her. And, in this way, you will be used as a trash can in which to dispose all guilt and unpleasant feelings. This process, of course, also serves to "validate" her false image of being "The Victim."

That's why you will be blamed even if you are sitting perfectly still doing nothing at all. Yet, if you decide to take action, you again will find yourself in a lose-lose situation no matter what action you choose. The reason is that a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. This means that, as you back away to avoid triggering her fear of engulfment and suffocation, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering her other fear (abandonment).


> Any advice?


Really, I suspect that your divorce is going to get ugly and nasty really quick. I therefore suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._

I also suggest you read more about BPD traits to see if most of them sound very familiar. Although you cannot diagnose your W's issues, you are fully capable of spotting the warning signs if you take time to learn the red flags. An easy place to start is my discussion in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522 and here in Zookeeper's thread at post #26 above. Take care, Really.


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## zookeeper

Really:

Not sure I have advice, but I can tell you how my situation is evolving. I still have love for my wife, but it's not the same as before. I care about her and her well being but I don't think about her with longing or affection all that much anymore. When I try to, all I can feel is the constant, unending pain she has caused me. I see the total lack of appreciation, the hostility, the lack of even the slightest concern for my needs or feelings and the idea that I might spend the rest of my life being the recipient of the vitriol that her family has earned stops me in my tracks.

When she is gone, I don't miss her. (She takes periodic trips with friends or to visit someone for a few days - time off that she pines for but never satisfies her for even a few hours afterward)I worry about her, but I don't really want her to come back. I'm able to be truly relaxed when I know she won't be coming home that night. I don't get resentful when doing all the housework (which i pretty much do whether she is here or not) because she is not sitting here on her phone or computer judging my performance on HER tasks or lying in bed. I have my spark back. I don't feel anxiety. I can whistle, sing a song or simply breathe without getting the stink eye and being told that I'm irritating her. No one here to blame me for things that have nothing to do with me. No one accusing me of things she manufactured out of the clear blue sky. I could go on and on, but I'm sure you know what I mean.

I used to worry about what she was thinking, did she miss me should I call her, how come she hasn't called me, is she mad at me, are her friends talking **** about me because they only hear her distorted perspective...ad nauseam. No longer. I'm always kind of hoping that she will say she is going to stay for a few days longer. My daughter would be upset if mommy stays longer, that's the reason for the "kind of" qualifier.

What's different? I'm not entirely sure. I guess that part of my heart has died. It's not absolute. Every once in a while she will show me some kindness and say the right things and I start to feel a little something. If she could maintain it for a while it might lead to something, but it never lasts long. 

This detachment is something I expect to accelerate and I look forward to it. I'm starting to remember who I was before I got sucked into her world. I liked that guy, and so did a lot of people. I want him to come back. My daughter deserves to see him more. 

I understand your dilemma. You don't want to give up on her, on the woman you met all those years ago that you are sure is still in there, if only you could figure out how to reach her. It's most likely an illusion. Even with help and much progress on her part, you most likely would meet a completely different, third woman. 

The concept I am struggling with is permission to fail. I have failed in my mission to love her healthy. It just doesn't work. She MAY be able to fix herself but I sure as hell can't. It's hard for me to allow myself to admit that she is beyond my reach and I am powerless. It's even harder to make the decision to save myself. I'm wracked with guilt over giving up on her and possibly removing the only support my daughter's mother has. The hardest thing is to consider what my daughter would experience when alone with her mother for full days at a time if we divorced and had joint custody. These things keep me in this orbit, though the orbit is continually deteriorating. If I could help her, I would. God knows I have tried. Time to start helping myself and my little girl.

In your case, your wife may be giving you the escape hatch that mine likely never will. I'll have to make it happen myself if I'm going to get out. I suggest you move ahead as swiftly as you can before she changes her kind and you find yourself drawn back into a prison with no bars.


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## Thor

Really!?!? said:


> Another post that ZK wrote, stated, "my wife says she doesn't trust me, I don't care about her feelings, I'm manipulative and controlling, I don't meet her obligations, there's no connection, etc,... Now I'm not an angel, but this stuff coudn't be more false. It has goten to the point that she insists that I have said and done things that simply did not happen,...".
> 
> When I read that,.... I was shocked at how accurately is pertained to my situation!!!! I'm also somehow validated,... yet, disturbed and worried at how close to home it struck a nerve in my situation.


Really, welcome aboard.

The CSA survivor can become an extremely controlling person. She fears all kinds of things, and thus wants to control everything. She becomes a perfectionist, and expects others to be too. She'll correct other people's imperfections constantly. Not in a harsh or belittling way, yet it wears one down to continuously be corrected.

You might enjoy reading the thread on "The Surrendered Wife". http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies-lounge/119170-surrendered-wife-mr-nice-guy.html . Several of the women there are CSA survivors who have worked through their issues. It is interesting to see how they now recognize their previous behaviors which they thought were fine and not related to their CSA.

My wife has called me controlling, and she has said very plainly that she didn't trust me. She has made some wild and patently untrue allegations about my motivations and hidden desires. I think it really reflects her own psyche, though. She can only understand other people based on her own templates, and thus she projects onto me what she would think or do in the same situation. I bet your wife does the same thing. She interprets something you do or say based on how she would react if she were you.


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## zookeeper

Really:

If you're still reading you may be interested in this. It occurred to me that marriage is not supposed to be this hard. I have given and given and given. I have overlooked so much, forgiven so much more and continue to care for this person who is incapable of caring for me in any meaningful way.

I want to feel love and affection. Playfulness. I want to have someone in my life that I can turn to when life gets tough. Someone I can confide in and trust. Someone who makes my life better. I keep trying to nudge my wife into this role. It is pointless. She can't do it. 

I don't think I can go on much longer feeling so empty and unloved. My compassion for her can no longer mask the fact that my soul is crying out for comfort. For a break from the crushing loneliness. No doubt yours is too. How we we satisfy that need? Will we continue to be passive, allowing our wives to decide our fate? Will we take charge and, set boundaries and either save our marriages or put them in a long overdue grave?

Your wife may very well cancel her plans to divorce. My wife is conflicted between her fear of abandonment and her fear of being vulnerable. Yours likely is too. Up to now, I have always worked to hold things together. We are in a particularly difficult time right now and the million dollar question is whether I will continue to let her set the course for my life or will I take the wheel myself and be the master of my own destiny? What will you do? 

I've always been a bit of a hopeless romantic. For far too long, I have been simply hopeless. I am dying over this relationship. I truly would give anything to help my wife find happiness, to show her how wonderful life can be, to convince her of how deeply I love her. It is an impossibility. I simply can't reach her. Will you ever be able to reach yours? I'm just thinking out loud here. What makes me so arrogant to think I can love her out of this? Countless therapists, psychiatrists, social workers, etc. have tried and failed. Why should I succeed. I'm just a guy who is in over his head. 

How can you help someone who resists you at every turn? She doesn't bite the hand that feeds her, she smashes it with a hammer, wipes her ass with it and then shoves it down my throat. I then try to feed her with the other hand. Maybe my problem is more me than her. Maybe yours is too.

Good luck to you, compadre. PM me if you want to chat. It actually helps the loneliness to hear from others who share your pain.


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## Really!?!?

Zookeeper, Uptown, and Thor - thank you!!!!!!!

I AM still reading,... and honestly, finding it difficult to digest all the information, suggestions, and experience you have shared. I can say without a doubt, that you are all uniquely qualified and considerably more experienced on the subject compared to ALL the therapists I have worked with.

I recently offended my current IC last week, when I told them that unless someone has lived the life of a CSA/Rape survivor's partner (us), that they couldn't possibly understand what it's like to experience was we've gone through, seen what we've seen, and understand the pain and despair we live with. I told my IC that in many respects I was more experienced and enlightened than they were on the effects of the CSA/Rape survivors trauma and marriages, since I've LIVED it, and they only READ about it. That didn't initially go over too well, but we eventually agreed on the point I was making. 

Neither my family, my wife's family, nor our friends, understand what we've endured in our marriage, let alone acknowledge that my W (as a CSA/Rape survivor) has a mental illness and how it affects me and our children. Something profound that my IC said, was that I was not only in a relationship with my W, but also with the mental illness. I was not aware of this because the entire time I was so caught up in what I thought we're normal "ups and downs" in a "normal" marriage, and didn't understand the impact that the CSA/Rape had on not just her, but our marriage.

Reading your replies, has brought a level of sanity back into my life, that I can only say THANK YOU, from the deepest part of my soul. You all speak the same language that only individuals like us are capable of interpreting. I've tried explaining all this to family and friends, hoping to receive validation somehow,.... but not until now do I KNOW that I am not alone, and NOT the cause of all my W's issues, problems, etc,....



> Thor: One of the high correlations with real BPD is a trauma history. Personality disorders and PTSD seem to go together. In any case, the behaviors are not healthy for anyone involved. I do caution people from diagnosing their spouse, because none of us are professionals, nor are we unbiased observers.





> Uptown: Have you read about BPD to see if your W is exhibiting the warning signs for that disorder? I ask because, as I mentioned in post #26 above, BPD is strongly associated with childhood abuse and abandonment -- especially with CSA at an early age. Another reason I ask is because some behaviors you describe -- i.e., always being "The Victim," inability to trust, and need to create drama -- are symptoms of BPD.


Thanks, yes - I have read about, and continue to study BPD and PTSD. My IC has also cautioned that without meeting my W, that they (nor I, since I'm not a professional) could diagnose her as BPD. But that being said, based on the many hours of our counseling, we suspect that she is BPDish and suffering from PTSD. The W thrives on being the victim, has significant trust issues, and loves drama. She has stated that she so desparately wants to trust (and has trusted most of our 15 years together),... but at a moments notice when something intensifies a trust tissue with her, it completely devastates and derails her!



> Me: I am currently on the outs with our marriage, and my W has stated yet again, she wants a divorce. We have been through this several times....





> Uptown: If she has strong BPD traits, that is to be expected. Marriages and other LTRs with a BPDer typically go through multiple breakup/reconciliation cycles before finally ending. A BPDfamily survey, for example, found that a third of them have 6 or more breakup/recon. cycles before ending -- and two thirds have at least 3 such cycles before ending.





> Uptown: Likewise, Zookeeper reports having had a 14 year toxic relationship and I had a 15 year marriage. I therefore found it interesting that a therapist, who claims to have treated many BPDer couples, said that BPDer relationships typically last either 18 months or 15 years. They last 18 months, he explained, when the Non has strong personal boundaries. The Non enjoys the 6 month honeymoon period of mirroring and then is willing to spend up to a year trying to reestablish the honeymoon conditions. Then he bails.
> 
> The relationship lasts about 15 years, he explained, when the Non has strong codependency traits and thus low personal boundaries. Such a Non typically never bails. Instead, the BPDer leaves him because, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. Also, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging.
> 
> This explanation struck a strong chord with me because my relationship lasted 15 years, at which time my wife had me arrested on a trumped up charge. That gave her an opportunity to file a restraining order barring me from my own home for a year and a half (when the divorce was finalized).


CHECK THIS OUT! We actually DID divorce once before 13 years ago,... we initially dated about 6 months, got married for 1 year, then divorced!!! Then,.... after a year and half of being divorced, got back together and re-married 6 months after that!!! When we got back together, we thought we had talked about "our issues", and had "figured" it out now!!!!! How naive and mistaken was I?!?!? She told me about the CSA before we married the 1st time,... so this was not something I was withheld,.... however it goes without saying I totally under-estimated the ramifications of it though. 

I did however, not learn until our couseling near the end of our 1st marriage, that she had been raped twice in high school, of which she said she blocked out for several (4 - 6) years after it happened. She said she wasn't sure why she withheld the rapes to me until we were divorcing, and then also recently told me that she has always remembered the CSA from her grandfather (at ages 6 thru 9, or so - she's not exactly sure),... when previously I recall that she had blocked that out for several years as well. Perhaps, she really doesn't know, remember, or want to remember. She has the "ability/curse" of being able to emotionally numb herself at will (when there are stressful things going on), block out memories, and dissassociate herself from our reality. Usually, this is when she consumes herself in "her" reality that I am a horrible person and the cause of all our marriage and trust issues. 

It's pointless saying that had I known then, what I know now, that I'd run for the hills,.... but in the end I have a 6 year old daughter that I love, cherish, and absoltely adore like nothing else on earth!

As Uptown quoted, a third of BPD marriages have 6 or so break-ups/reconciliation cycles,.... I think we are on # 4 or 5. The other 2/3rds have about 3 cycles,.. before the marriage ends. I noticed that 100% of all BPD marriages end,.... is that true? I wouldn't doubt it,... as painful as that is to consider. 



> Uptown: The relationship lasts about 15 years, he explained, when the Non has strong codependency traits and thus low personal boundaries. Such a Non typically never bails. Instead, the BPDer leaves him because, as the years go by, she becomes increasingly resentful of his inability to make her happy or fix her. Also, she may become increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging.


Being the Non-BPDer, I admittedly have strong codependency traits and trouble setting boundaries. I'm a people pleaser, hence probably the initial attraction to my Survivor W. I am the Non that typically won't leave the relationship, and if it weren't for our 6 year old daughter, wouldn't be struggling with it as deeply. I also didn't want to leave the 1st short term marriage, but the W was in her fight or flight mode, and clearly was running from what she perceived as a perpetrator relationship.

Now, she appears to be resentful of my inability to make her happy, but won't admit that nor that she needs fixing. Her lack in sexual interest can only be associated to her "interpretation" that I'm either her "parent" and/or "perpetrator". She doesn't see it that way though,... and just knows that for some reason she doesn't have those feelings for me anymore. This has been been painful for me to hear. 

She even says, "I love you, but not in love with you (sexually/romantically)". She broke down in tears one night, hugged me, and apologized that she didn't feel that way anymore. Wouldn't you think she would talk to her IC about that and get some suggestions to work on her "stuff"? Probably not, it's easier to place the blame on me, and call me a poor lover.



> Uptown: I agree with you and Thor that you are describing a transformation of your role from BF/lover to "adult male authority figure relative." Indeed, I would say you've transformed to "parent" if your W exhibits strong BPD traits, because her emotional development in that case would be stuck at the level of a four year old.
> 
> If so, HER perception would not be to see you transforming from lover to parent. Rather, she would see you transforming from "savior" to "perpetrator."
> 
> As soon as her infatuation over you evaporates, you will immediately be relegated to playing "the Perpetrator," which means you will be blamed for every mistake and misfortune to befall her. In this way, she continues to receive "validation" that she is a perpetual victim.


Unfortunately, I can see how the sexual attraction and intimate connections become non-existant, once the infatuation period is evaporated, and the roll of "parent" or "perp" replaces lover/bf. This is where we are at now,.... but in the past we've been able to come out of it (although temporarily). What is the reason for this "awakening" like the Robert Dinero movie,... and why can't somebody invent a medication for it!!!!!?



> Uptown: With BPDers, however, the spouse typically is not being manipulated or lied to. Because a BPDer is able to fall in love, she is so caught up in the infatuation that she is convinced she has met her savior and soul mate, the man who has come to rescue her from unhappiness. She is able to be so passionate and intimate during this period only because her infatuation holds her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. Hence, as soon as the infatuation evaporates, those fears return and she starts exhibiting her BPD traits.


This dual-fear Paradox of "abandonment" and "engulfment",... is a no win situation. This sucks, because I can see no solution to this, as one salvation will only trigger the sabotage of the other fear. Tell me I'm wrong about this,....



> Uptown: Yes, if your W has strong BPD traits, you will be blamed no matter what you do or do not do. Just by being in the room with her, you will be blamed for painful thoughts she has because, to protect her from that pain, her subconscious will project the thoughts and feelings onto you. In that way, she will be convinced that the thoughts and feelings are originating from you, not her. And, in this way, you will be used as a trash can in which to dispose all guilt and unpleasant feelings. This process, of course, also serves to "validate" her false image of being "The Victim."
> 
> That's why you will be blamed even if you are sitting perfectly still doing nothing at all. Yet, if you decide to take action, you again will find yourself in a lose-lose situation no matter what action you choose. The reason is that a BPDer's two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. This means that, as you back away to avoid triggering her fear of engulfment and suffocation, you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering her other fear (abandonment).


I'm screwed,..... yet I desparately grasp onto some hope that there must be a cure/solution. Is there not a remedy for this paradox? Reading the last 2 paragraph quote from Uptown, really hit a nerve. I've lived those last 2 paragraphs the past 15 years. If I try to help her, I get told she doesn't need my help. If I do nothing, she feels abandoned. Because I'm there, I've taken the brunt of her issues, projection, transference,... I've been her surogate punching bag, trash can, and spittoon for her trauma and baggage.



> Me: The W has been in therapy on and off for 25 years,... but most recently hasn't been working on "her" stuff and the CSA trauma. She never really worked on it in the past 15 years that I can recall etiher.





> Uptown: Again, if she is a BPDer, that result is to be expected. It is rare for a high functioning BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength to be willing to work hard on her own issues in therapy. My BPDer exW, for example, went to weekly sessions for 15 years with six different psychologists, at enormous expense to me. It did not make a dent in her behavioral problems. Not one dent. On the contrary, her behavior got worse over those years.


I also fear this,... in the past 15 years since we've been together on and off, she's never really addressed her CSA/Rape Trauma and recovery,..... I don't think she was/is strong enough or has the Self Awareness to think she needs to. Recently, her latest "therapist" the past 7 months, has only really exemplified my W's issues with our marriage and her unhappiness with our sex life, although she's the one in control of that! Her perception of me as her "parent" or "perp" has tainted her sexuality in our marriage. Not fair,....



> Uptown: Really, I suspect that your divorce is going to get ugly and nasty really quick. I therefore suggest you read Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist.
> 
> I also suggest you read more about BPD traits to see if most of them sound very familiar. Although you cannot diagnose your W's issues, you are fully capable of spotting the warning signs if you take time to learn the red flags. An easy place to start is my discussion in Maybe's thread at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general...tml#post473522


I suspect the same thing,.... which is why my stomach is in knots, I've lost 20 lbs, can't sleep, and the anxiety and stress from this is making life very challenging. Somehow, I still have to keep working and making money (somebody has to), and being a good father.

It's been 3.5 months since she has been "off" and in her latest chasm,.... and 6 weeks since she told me she wanted a divorce (again),.... yet hasn't packed a single thing yet, nor making any efforts to make more money herself so she can be on her own. She's been sleeping in a spare bedroom for 3 months now, and won't even undress in front of me anymore. 

She will accept all the things like being taken care of, provided for, like a parent would for a child,... then resent and despise you for it because she isn't sexually attracted to you because she "see's" you as parent figure. That is the most screwed up Catch 22 I can imagine.

She tells her family regarding our pending divorce, "it's not the CSA",.... "it's about the lack of connection and intimacy in our marriage", of which she's the ones who built the emotional walls and barriers to protect herself when "needed". 

How does one tell a survivor that you are not her parent, not her perpetrator, and that we can have a healthy sex life?!

I'm not too hopeful for the replies on that one,....

So right now, she doesn't think she needs any work to do on her CSA/Rape trauma, is totaly focused on divorcing me because I'm the cause of all problems, and looking to date as soon as possible to get her sexuality/intimacy needs met, since she can't have sex with her "parent/perpetrator/husband". The B.S. part, is that we're still living together, and she still "allows" me to take care of her and pay most the bills. Any signs of affection from me is met with "what are you doing",... and if I detached (with love) from her,.... she see's that as abandonment. This is my hell,.... is there anything I can do?

more to come, re: Zookeepers replies - as I can relate to much of his situation.


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## Really!?!?

> Zookeeper: Not sure I have advice, but I can tell you how my situation is evolving. I still have love for my wife, but it's not the same as before. I care about her and her well being but I don't think about her with longing or affection all that much anymore. When I try to, all I can feel is the constant, unending pain she has caused me. I see the total lack of appreciation, the hostility, the lack of even the slightest concern for my needs or feelings and the idea that I might spend the rest of my life being the recipient of the vitriol that her family has earned stops me in my tracks.


Wow,... you are still together, and I can see how this has waned on you. I can see my probable fate in your words,.... I share that "constant, unending pain she has caused",... "total lack of appreciation, the hostility, the lack of even the slightest concerns for my needs,...". Why am I repeating you?!? Because, I can't believe (actually, now I can), the similarities of our situation. You must be one of those NICE guys, who have a huge heart and just wanted to love and care for her. We are both hopeless romantics I guess.




> Zookeeper: What's different? I'm not entirely sure. I guess that part of my heart has died. It's not absolute. Every once in a while she will show me some kindness and say the right things and I start to feel a little something. If she could maintain it for a while it might lead to something, but it never lasts long.



I've learned from my IC, that this "version" of her is actually still part of who she is, albeit perhaps not as big a percentage of "her" that was once there - or there now,.... I too struggle with this,... which makes it extremely difficult to just "cut your losses and move on", as most of my (and her) family have suggested. Easier said than done, and only we can understand why it's so difficult to just bail out. I believe you and I also share in common the fact that we have a young daughter with our CSA survivor/spouse. This is the most difficult of situations to deal with. 



> Zookeeper: The concept I am struggling with is permission to fail. I have failed in my mission to love her healthy. It just doesn't work. She MAY be able to fix herself but I sure as hell can't. It's hard for me to allow myself to admit that she is beyond my reach and I am powerless.


I totally get that,... and let me just say - you haven't failed. You are in a no win situation. You can't expect to be healthy with someone in a relationship, who isn't either willing/able or AWARE, that they need to fix themselves. Uptown and Thor (and 100% of my IC's), have said - you can't fix her, nor should you try to. It won't and never works that way, if the BPD or CSA/Rape Survivor, is unaware and/or unable to work on "THEIR" issues, "THEIR Trauma", then it's improbable that anyone could be happy in a mutually happy relationship with them. We are both in a miserable relationship,... that is cursed with this trauma that we didn't create. We don't deserve this!!!!!!!! I have been told by HER family, that I must be some kind of "saint", to have lasted this long with her, etc,...... It's "ironic" that they are willing to give accolades in this regard, yet still participate in the "denial" of the trauma's existance and impact on their WHOLE family. I guess everybody has their own issues to deal with, and eveyone else's plate is full too,.... I get it,.... this is my burden to deal with.

My experience, is that my W tried a few times while we've been together to work on her stuff, but it was so overwhelming and traumatizing to work on,... that she bailed on that "work" and DEFAULTED her focus on "our marriage issues", my "faults" as a husband, etc,..... that is an easy ESCAPE for her, because the "cause" of those problems is easy,..... the SPOUSE/PARTNER is the cause of all her problems, unhappiness, fear, and issues,.... pretty easy solution, eh? There's no prior trauma, CSA, Rape, BPD, PTSD, issues for her to deal with,.... the "disease" is the husband, so get rid of the jerk whose been supportive, loving, affectionate, helpful, and giving,.... all that is just "his way of manipulating you into doing something you don't want to do,.... be intimate with him!!!!!"



> Zookeeper: I understand your dilemma. You don't want to give up on her, on the woman you met all those years ago that you are sure is still in there, if only you could figure out how to reach her.


This is the quandry,..... and as easy as it is for outsiders to recognize, analyze, explain to you, and rationalize,..... it's the Kryptonite of us Partners (of CSA/rape survivors). We are grasping on to the fantasy, the hope, the dream, of who and what we fell in love with, and who we are still in love with. Albeit it a small percentage of who they currently are,.... we grasp on to this with our death grips. Being a co-dependent with the inability to set strong boundaries, is probably the reason we attracted our CSA spouses, and the reason why it so hard for us to let go,.... it's frigging the hardest thing I've ever had to face!!!!!




> Zookeeper: In your case, your wife may be giving you the escape hatch that mine likely never will. I'll have to make it happen myself if I'm going to get out. I suggest you move ahead as swiftly as you can before she changes her mind and you find yourself drawn back into a prison with no bars.


Ironically, you are probably 101% correct on this. 95% of the friends and family I have spoken with, have told me the same thing. "Consider this her gift to you,....", "take it and run", "she has abused and disrespected you for too long", " you deserve better", "she will repeat this (her) pattern with someone else,... she always has", "get out!". Well,... these are hard words to hear,... from both our families. Why is it so hard for me to pull the trigger?


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## hurtandc0nfused

You know, as I have been reading through these last few posts, it has occurred to me that I have finally been given the gift. After her latest stint in the psych hospital, the W moved out again and we are now working towards D. We have filled out most of the paperwork, and actually agreed on the overall split of how things will be divided. 

Really, Zoo, and Thor, you have spoken the truth when you say that we are the nice guys, the romantics, that have been caught up in a no-win situation. I am the kind of guy as well, that does laundry, cooked, cleaned, managed the house, while she has not for many years. I love the woman with all of my heart and soul, and yes, I too know that the woman I fell in love with is somewhere inside there, but the truth of the matter is that I can't make her love me. I can't do anything for her in this situation. If she does not want to work on "HER" issues, then there is nothing left for us to salvage.


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## Really!?!?

Dear Hurt, she has set you free,.... as much as it may hurt. 

Focus on your newly found opportunity, to spend the remainder of your life in a more positive serenity, peace, and eventually healthy relationship. I'm in my mid 40's, and God willing - I'll have another 25 - 40 years left on this good earth, and hope to find a companion that I adore, and who adores me as well. No more of my unconditional giving of love to someone, for no return in intimacy, love, affection, or appreciation. I cannot and should not be continuously blamed for all her unhappiness and unresolved anger, trauma, trust issues, and pain - that I didn't cause.

When I was sent a letter from my W 2 months ago, stating "it's time for me (her) to go,.... perhaps you'll look back one day and thank me". It's like she knows her behavior has been hurtful these many years,... yet continues to unleash her potent venom on me.

We are heading down the divorce route as well,.... but I can't seem to get her out of the house soon enough. Her latest plans for a new place have "fallen through, again", and she doesn't anticipate moving out for another 2 months. 

This is brutal,..... and I know she's dating and mingling, trying to catch her next prey. I hate to say this,.... but it's true.

And then recently, I have discovered many lies she has made,... she's either getting really sloppy or lazy now, or purposely being careless to hurt me and drive me crazy.

My step-daughter went away to college 7 weeks ago, and I was told by the W 2 months ago, that she had a discussion with her daughter about our pending separation, divorce, etc,..... and that she was very sad and needed time to process it, and for me to give her space (which I did). 

I just recently had a chance to speak with my step-daughter, and told her that I love her, support her, and that I was so sorry this was happening, and that I've tried and tried for many years to make my marriage to her mother work. My step-D knows all too well how hard I've tried, has always been a big supporter of mine, and has seen all that we've been through the past 15 years. 

So here's where it gets totally NUTS! My Step-D says, "sorry for WHAT? What's happening?",..... I said, "about your mom and I separating and getting a divorce". She says "WHATTTTTTTT are you talking about!!!!!??????"

I said, "uh,.... your mom said she told you,... about us divorcing,.... didn't she?". Her reply, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO she didn't!!!!" and she proceeded to just lose it uncontrollably and start waling and crying!

So I'm like, WTH?!? REALLY!?!?

Not only was I blatantly lied to,... I was set up, and ended up being the one who dropped the bomb!!! (We also have a 6 year old daughter together, and neither one of us has the balls to tell her yet).

I realized at this point, I'm dealing with a monster! I'm sorry for CSA survivors, and have deep compassion for the pain and trauma they have had to endure,.... but that doesn't give some of them a license or permission to become abusers themselves. It may not happen often,.... but it DOES happen. 

- Some BPD or CSA survivors may never improve,... some may, but not all. THAT IS REALITY. My W is in her mid 40's, and there are no signs or indication at this point in her life, that she will ever seek or acknowledge the therapy, support, work, and healing she so desparately needs. ALL her old friends and both our families know this to be true,.... only her NEW friends don't know this about her yet, as they haven't known her long enough to learn this about her.

- Some CSA Survivors are confused about the side effects of the abuse, vs. the abuse itself,.... maybe so,... but knowing that now, how does that make my life any better??!! If they don't recognize a need to fix or address that issue with themselves,... then there's not a damn thing a partner can do about it either,..... it's a doomed situation!!!

- Their sexuality is frozen at the age of their abuse as a child, their confusion with their boyfriend/lover/spouse transforming into a parent/perpetrator/abuser,..... what difference does it make? They eventually see their spouses as repulsive and lose any possible trust or sense of intimacy with them all together anyway. doom!

If it sounds like I'm pissed,.... well I am!!! Really!!!!

I am done defending her to our friends and family,.... and that the abuse has been hard on her, etc,..... I'm done. It's time to let everyone say what they've been saying all these years anyway,.... that she's an abrasive, selfish, b----!!!!!

Let it be,.... it is what it is,..... it REALLY is.


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## SScaterpillar

Before you do anything, she absolutely must see a counselor. Not just whatever counselor she can find. She needs to shop around. Find one she can trust or else nothing will work.

My husband is married to a victim of sexual abuse. Fortunately, I feel that my childhood abuses are quite tame, though they still scarred me forever. I was touched by my father, looked at as a sexual person, and he watched porn when I would sit or lay on the couch with him. This was all under the age of 8. As I got older, I was sexually assaulted by co-workers at the age of 16 and 17. My bosses, who has daughters my age at the time, told me it was my own fault. Later on, I was raped in my own home by someone I trusted and then he told our mutual friends that I was all over him (he drugged me, so I was in and out of consciousness) before I could say or do anything. I've had random men expose themselves to me, touch my genitalia and breasts without my permission, and grew up with a very uptight idea of how a female should be. Therefore, it took me a very, very long time to clue my mother into these things. I have yet to tell her about my dad, who is still her husband and with whom I am still close. I probably never will. It's not her fault and she will feel it is. 

It took me until my husband and I were fighting regularly about sex to do something about it. For a long time, I felt it was just that I tend to be with "hornballs" and whatever I do is never enough. While my husband is still a honest-to-goodness "hornball" with a supernatural sex drive, I definitely had my own issues. Him not realizing them and me not accepting them was doing us a lot of harm. 

I finally sought counseling. I had to search high and low for one I could afford. Many psychiatrists and counselors price gouge, in my opinion. Luckily, on my first try, I found the best counselor in the world. He also had reasonable pricing. In fact, he has you pay what you can. He wants all people who need access to have it, even if that means sacrificing his finances. He's an incredibly good person, which makes me trust him so very much. 

Learning so much about myself and what I've been through has changed me. I also learned that I was misdiagnosed with Bi-Polar Disorder when I was also correctly diagnosed with severe clinical depression after my boyfriend died when I was 20. I actually have a classic case of Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and my depression is a constant struggle, yet well-managed now. He helped me find the right medications along with a psychiatrist. Talking to him weekly has been a Godsend. I went from shuddering at the touch of my husband (whom I love implicitly and find very sexually attractive) to initiating sex and not just the boring type. I'm a whole new person...or really, starting to be the person I would have been had I not been abused by random, sick men.

She can get her life back. She can be who she wants herself to be. But, she needs help. She cannot do it on her own. You sound as though you would be a very supportive person for her, which is also 100% necessary. My husband's understanding and support has helped my healing. Encourage her to find someone to help her. As a survivor, I can tell you that it's possible. It takes a long time, but it will be better.


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## Really!?!?

Dear SScaterpillar,

Thank you for your insight and encouragement. It's great to hear that you have been successful in your healing journey, and I am happy for you and your husband that you have been able to grow closer together.

I also agree 100% that it is _possible_ for my W to heal,.... however - realistically,.... I have lost hope for that now. This is a reality that I have contemplated for 15 years,.... and based on her past attempts, behavior, and cycles,... I don't feel that she has the self-awareness, courage, or strength to acknowledge her need to take on these demons that still haunt her.

She has been in and out of counseling for 25 years,.... and her most recent IC the past 8 months, seems to have made things worse. I've never met this IC, and have been told that I am not welcome to see this IC with my W for couples therapy. She clearly does not want the IC to hear my side of things. I have found out the past 2 months, that they aren't even discussing her CSA and Rape trauma, and more focused on my issues as a horrible husband - who's been loving and supporting her for 15 years, not to mention financially and emotionally. Gawd,.... I feel like such a "jerk". Being a Nice Guy is not a good thing some times.

There have been times I've said, "honey, I love you with ALL my heart, and I'm always here to support you". Her reply, "DON'T tell me you want to support me,.... that just means I NEED support". 

My response, "I love you so much, I'm hear to help you,....". Her reply, "DON'T tell me you want to help me,.... that just means I need HELP". Even the words "I love you", began to freak her out,... sometimes she felt like I was using those "words" to manipulate her,....

SS,.... like you mentioned earlier, she needs to want to help herself,..... and I'm surrendering to the reality that she does not want to, and likely does not think she needs to.

Remember, she's the one leaving, the one running, the one wanting a divorce. I didn't ask for this, and I would have stayed through thick and thin, for better or for worse, til death do us part,..... shame those words don't mean **** anymore. 

Again, I am glad things worked out for you - and I hope my story doesn't bum you out. Your husband is a lucky man.

Take care SScaterpillar


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## CharlotteMcdougall

zookeeper said:


> Hi all. First post here. I'll try to make it to the point.
> 
> My wife is a victim of childhood sexual abuse (her maternal granfather.) As a teen, she revealed this to he rparents who pretty much swept it under the rug and continued a relationship with this monster.
> 
> I became aware of her trauma a year or two into our relationship. We have been together 14 years and married for 8. She has always had some issues with trust and fear of vulnerability but largely things were good. Shortly after marriage things started to decline and during pregancy they really began to deteriorate. We are now hanging on by a thread. In her more lucid periods she tearfully apologizes for her anger, hostility and all the rest. When the depression takes a front seat anything and everything sets her off. Or she will be constantly overwhelmed and exhausted and shuts me out entirely.
> 
> The situation is so complex I could ramble on for hours. My questions are pretty simple:
> 
> How many of you are currently or have been married to a survivor of childhood sexual abuse/clinically depressed spouse?
> 
> Why did you stay/leave?
> 
> Am I kidding myself that she can "get better" with all these meds and therapy?
> 
> The whole idea of sexual abuse was very foreign to me before I met her. I just don't know if this is something a person can truly heal from or if she is "broken" permanently (as she sometimes tells me she is when she is having a breakdown episode.)
> 
> I would love to get some different perspectives on this situation. I used to think I could endure anything for her, but I'm nearing the end of my endurance. Particularly because of my pre-school daughter. She deserves better than a home filled with tension and hostility and I am far from my best while under this strain. I don't mind investing more, but I fear I may be ignoring the 800 lb gorilla in the room.
> 
> Thanks for reading.


I am a survivor of CSA. 

Therapy and medication can make a world of difference. It is more than possible for your wife to heal. However, she has to *want *to heal for _herself _and not others.

I will probably always have issues with trust and vulnerability as I have been exposed to many different types of abuse. My husband's tenderness has helped me blossom in different ways. I am learning that can be weak with my husband and I don't need to scared of emotional intimacy.

My husband stays with me out of love and also out of admiration for all of the trauma that I have survived. Also, the happy days greatly outweigh the bad days in our marriage. I refuse to lose my marriage and my husband to my past.


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## TikiKeen

> I refuse to lose my marriage and my husband to my past.


This cannot be emphasized enough: when the survivor moves away from being a victim and toward being a survivor, then we start fighting for the marriage.

Why? Because we've begun to win the battle with ourselves over our past. Otherwise, it feels like two fronts of a huge inner war.

I'm concerned about the lack of information regarding the overlap between PTSD from ongoing/childhood trauma and BPD. The hallmarks are distinct, yet so much mis-diagnosis exists, along with PTSD being ID's as bipolar, too. I urge other survivors to seek a trauma specialist when looking for IC's. (I'm also grateful my H found a good one, as did I. We lucked out soon into our respective searches.)

But yes, when "distrust" is the default, we have to re-learn nearly everything emotionally. Marriages often suffer most during that time, but a good IC will want to meet periodically with both the survivor and spouse to keep the spouse in the loop concerning the survivor's treatment goals. As the spouse goes through IC, he/she deals with his/her own issues and patterns. Breaking these patterns at the same time has caused friction at my home, and we had to be taught in IC to recognize that.

Just wanted to offer more input.


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## Uptown

Really!?!? said:


> I also agree 100% that it is _possible_ for my W to heal,.... She has been in and out of counseling for 25 years,.... and her most recent IC the past 8 months, seems to have made things worse.


Really, I asked you a question about BPD warning signs in post #64 above. If you have time to post a response, I would be interested in what you have to say.


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## Really!?!?

Uptown said:


> Really, I asked you a question about BPD warning signs in post #64 above. If you have time to post a response, I would be interested in what you have to say.


Uptown, sorry for the delay - I just saw your post.

there is much to update, but I'll do that later when more time permits.

In short, the Ex and I have filed for divorce and she moved out right after Thanksgiving.

She indeed has most all BPD traits, and many narcassistic traits as well. In the research I done since your post back in Sept, I learned a lot about the correlation with promiscuity, sexual acting out, serial cheating, infidelity,... with CSA Survivors.

It's been quite disturbing what I've learned,.... but on the other hand - relieving in a way that I've been given an opportunity to be set free from it all, the eggshells, the lies, the cheating, being emotionally abused by her, being blamed for all her issues that I had nothing to do with,....

I'm over it.

More later,....


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## Really!?!?

Uptown, here's a quick follow up:

So yes, the Ex does indeed exhibit most BPD traits:


Sudden and intense anger - yes, she would be fine and in a good mood,... then when the slightest issue or conflict came about, it would send her into an angry fit, taking it out on me, the kids, etc,... most of the time over-reacting, almost like she was thriving on it - that it gave her some excuse to release some inner rage (of course, the original source of this rage was never linked to her CSA trauma from age 4 - 9)


Wide, rapid mood swings - yes, she was/is easily triggered by her emotions. When happy, very happy. When sad, very depressed. When angry, this was the most intense swing - anger into rage very quickly.


Impulsive behavior, often regretted but sometimes defended as justified - yes,... and this was never more prevalent than when she started dating other men, but we were still married and living together. She could no longer contain her addiction to seeking sex and attention from other men. As a "Christian" person, she betrayed all of her vows, and her hypocrisy disgusts me. I called her on it, and she tried to justify that she "loved me" but wasn't in love with me. It's ironic that early in our relationship, she was so attracted to our passion, and that she found someone that would love and take care of her,.... but unbenownst to both of us - that would ultimately push us apart, as over the years I eventually assumed the role of her parent/caregiver,.... and potentially "abusive family member". The whole thing just makes me want to vomit. Much of this goes way back into their "church background" and incestious history there and the cover ups, rug sweeping, denial,.... who would have known?


Substance abuse, eating disorders, or other potentially self-harming behavior - yes, she has been taking valium on a regular basis for close to a year that I know of. She said it was to maintain her anxiety, which she had on a daily basis. She's also obessed with losing weight,...now - that she is actively dating and trying to attract men. 


Potentially violent actions, with buildup of tension, and explosion of rage and then remorse - yes, nothing physical towards anyone in our family, but she's been known to shatter cell phones and my calculators from work. I sense a little remorse from her afterwards,.... but mainly embarrassment


Impaired black-and-white thnking, called "splitting", where people with BPD put their partners on pedestals at the beginning of the relationship, and then push them off when their partners are unable to meet all their demands. Splitting is a major contributor to high-conflict divorce - yes again.... this is exactly our relationship. Of course early on, things were great - and she commented over and over again how happily married she was to me, she looked up to me, was finally at peace, etc,.... but then over the years, in her eyes I haven't been able to meet all her demands, to conquer her demons, her issues, her CSA trauma,.... and she began to take it out on me. She would have these re-emerging imprisoned memories from her abuse re-surface, however she could not associate it to her abuse - therefore she would pin blame on the closest person to her.... me. This ghost mask would appear on her face, "she takes on a stony, cold countenance, often with a faraway look". A quote from "Haunted Marriage" that describes this phenomenon to a tee! 


Great fear of abandonment, which nearly always comes into play during a divorce - even if they initiate the divorce. Ironically, the combination of intense clinging and intense anger tends to push people away - again, yes to our situation. She inititated the divorce/seperation, and is now "dating" heavily to fight off her fear of abandonment. From rumors I hear from friends and people we know around town, she is apprarently "mowing them down".

There are also some other key factors about our situation and her CSA history that I found disturbing - and basically just kicked me in the butt enough to focus on letting it all go, letting her go, surrendering to a battle that I was never going to win:


"The strongest indicator of sexual abuse is sexual acting out and inappropirate sexual knowledge, interest, and behavior" - meaning, promiscuity, infidelity, serial cheating, etc,..... it has always been in her, she tried to suppress it,... but she could no longer. 


"Chronic sexual abuse, especially starting at early ages, has been found to be related to high levels of dissociative symptoms, which includes amnesia for the abuse memories  - this is a strange one, because my Ex says she remembers ALL of the abuse that occured when she was 4 - 9 years old,.... but when she would have these re-emerged horror episodes,... she could never connect it to the abuse. I've tried to get her to speak to someone about it, but she refused. At one point many years ago, she tried the EMDR process,... but it put her in a tailspin for the worse for a couple years. I think she fears to go down that path again.


Frequently, CSA Survivors (or victims as this particular article states), do not make the connection between their abuse and their present pathology - this explains why she and her therapist have been focussing on all the reasons why she's unhappy in our marriage, and not working on her CSA recovery and healing. She has stated to many friends and family that her feelings towards me have nothing to do with her child sexual abuse by her grandfather, and the cover up by her own mother,... who was also sexually abused and molested by the same abuser, her father. It's CRAZY how no one in their family see's this 800 lb gorilla FAMILY MOLESTATION that has cursed this family for generations!!!


Adults with a history of CSA, often have conflict in romantic and interpsersonal relationships - Haunted Marriage states that as CSA relationships become more intimate, so does the chances of re-emerging memories coming to the surface, as the Survivor let's their guard down (which had been supressing all this past trauma). Ironically, as my marriage became more intimate - so did her lack of trust increase, and the freqency of her "fogs" and "ghost masks".


Research has shown that traumatic stress, including stress caused by sexual abuse, causes notable changes in brain functioning and development. Various studies have suggested that severe child sexual abuse may have a deleterious effect on brain development. A 2006 study found that the self-reported math Scholastic Aptitude Test scores of their sample of women with a history of repeated child sexual abuse were significantly lower than the self-reported math SAT scores of their non-abused sample - I won't get into how this relates to my ex, but let me just say that this hit a nerve with me. And I also realized the severity in which this CSA trauma has impacted her as a person, her relationships, and her life.

Despite my anger, pain, loss, resentment, and frustration I have towards her and our marriage/divorce - I ultimately feel bad for her, and I'm sorry her childhood was so traumatic.

There better be an appropriate reservation in HELL for sex offenders.


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## Thor

Really!?!? said:


> Despite my anger, pain, loss, resentment, and frustration I have towards her and our marriage/divorce - I ultimately feel bad for her, and I'm sorry her childhood was so traumatic.
> 
> There better be an appropriate reservation in HELL for sex offenders.


:iagree:

It is difficult to dislike someone who is the victim of a terrible unthinkable crime. Yet along with all the good things which attracted us in the first place are all these dark and hurtful aspects to them which make it difficult to feel close or safe in a relationship with them.

Abusers should be publicly tortured. My wife wisely has withheld any information which would help me figure out the name of her abuser. I rationalize that he is likely dead of very old age by now. I don't know how I might react were I to find him.


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## Uptown

Really!?!? said:


> She was/is easily triggered by her emotions. When happy, very happy. When sad, very depressed. When angry, this was the most intense swing - anger into rage very quickly.


Really, thanks for describing the many BPD warning signs she exhibits. The inability to regulate one's own emotions -- which you describe here -- is the key defining trait for BPD because it is the basis of the instability. 

Indeed, a large segment of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to rename this disorder to be "Emotional Regulation Disorder." If you would like to read some of my experiences living with a BPDer for 15 years, see my discussion in Maybe's Thread.


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## Really!?!?

Uptown said:


> If you would like to read some of my experiences living with a BPDer for 15 years, see my discussion in Maybe's Thread.





Uptown said:


> ,....you don't need to know whether her traits surpass the diagnostic threshold. Even when those traits fall well short of that threshold, they can make your life miserable and destroy a marriage. Moreover, strong BPD traits are easy to identify when occurring in a woman you've known for 11 years. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about behavior such as verbal abuse and temper tantrums. I caution, however, that BPD traits are not something that would have appeared only in the last few years. They are persistent. When you were dating, they would have disappeared during the infatuation period but would have resurfaced as the infatuation evaporated. You therefore should have started seeing red flags for this behavior after the honeymoon period ended.


Uptown, thanks for the recommendation - I indeed went back and read your post on BPD. It was like reading about the last 15 years of my life and relationship with a BPD, CSA Survivor. As you mentioned, it's not important whether or not my Ex's traits surpass the diagnostic threshold for BPD and Narsacism,... enough of those traits that exist in her long term was enough to poison our relationship and marriage to the point where we were both miserable. 

I think is was me, who took (and still taking) a long time to accept the fact that it was always was present in her and our relationship (and yes, even from the beginning), and always will be there,....

I didn't know to recognize the red flags early on.... and only now seeing that they have always been there.


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## Really!?!?

Thor said:


> :iagree:
> 
> It is difficult to dislike someone who is the victim of a terrible unthinkable crime. Yet along with all the good things which attracted us in the first place are all these dark and hurtful aspects to them which make it difficult to feel close or safe in a relationship with them.


I couldn't have summarized this any better,... the complexity and diversity of all my Ex's compartmentalized personas, is indeed a tangled web of relationships that existed within our marriage. I toggled between being the Hero and the Perpetrator - AND everything in between. And, I was still always going to be doomed.




Thor said:


> :Abusers should be publicly tortured. My wife wisely has withheld any information which would help me figure out the name of her abuser. I rationalize that he is likely dead of very old age by now. I don't know how I might react were I to find him.


Knowing who the perp was, may not make things any easier. I knew of my Ex's CSA Trauma before we got married, and we discussed who her abuser was - her grandfather. He was very old and weak,.... and I was never allowed to meet him. He died 5 years into my marriage to his grand-daughter - and for some reason I attended the funeral.

That was actually very disturbing: seeing the generations of rug-sweeping, denial, cover up, with no acknowledgement that this piss-ant of a man, (who was actually being grieved by family members as a respected elder in the family,... and being greived by his victims),.... was a child molesting-incestuous-sex-offender!!!

I was also disgusted when I learned that my Ex's own mother (who was abused by this bastard when she was young), knew about the abuse but continued to let her own daughters be alone with this monster when they were small children. 

She tells me, that God has forgiven her,.....


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## mountain_minds

Thor said:


> When I first found descriptions of Borderline, it seemed similar to my wife's behavior, but it just never really fit. I thought of her as BPD-ish, or BPD-lite, though I never bought into her having real BPD.
> 
> Once I learned of her abuse and a bit about how it affects people, all of the pieces fit. She is not BPD.
> 
> One of the high correlations with real BPD is a trauma history. Personality disorders and PTSD seem to go together. In any case, the behaviors are not healthy for anyone involved. I do caution people from diagnosing their spouse, because none of us are professionals, nor are we unbiased observers. Sometimes the online descriptions of a disorder totally fit, but still it should be seen as an unofficial guess.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :iagree: Totally completely perfectly accurate.



I'm right there with Thor. My wife might have borderline tendencies -but the more I learn about abuse, the more I realize that's where it's coming from. But, I'll add this caveat: Whether it's dealing with CSA or BPD - the roads are both rocky. 
Both require incredible perseverance by the the survivor. They have to want it VERY badly to make it right. 
At the end, it has to because they WANT to make it so. My W can recognize what her past abuse did to her and her thinking in relationships in general -but it's another matter to do the hard work to change her life habits and move forward. It takes a lot of mental inertia, enduring setbacks and finding DESIRE to deal with the scary stuff.

Otherwise - being a nice guy myself, if I'm not careful... my Nice Guy tendencies are very easy to manipulate again to do the happy dance that it's all "ok". That's my role. Finally coming clean about what I need and want. And finding constructive ways to communicate that. The jury is still out in my case if my wife will want to do the hard work it takes to keep in this relationship... Takes two parts - one on my side to support her and see how I enabled some of our dysfunction and her side to do the hard work to confront the past and create a new future.

I'm not done yet. But, I'm not afraid to state my needs and know that I'm worth them too.


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## Confused Aussie

It's been a long time for this thread, even longer for me to post, but I find myself rereading this over and over again.

[Otherwise - being a nice guy myself, if I'm not careful... my Nice Guy tendencies are very easy to manipulate again to do the happy dance that it's all "ok". That's my role. Finally coming clean about what I need and want. And finding constructive ways to communicate that. The jury is still out in my case if my wife will want to do the hard work it takes to keep in this relationship... Takes two parts - one on my side to support her and see how I enabled some of our dysfunction and her side to do the hard work to confront the past and create a new future.

I'm not done yet. But, I'm not afraid to state my needs and know that I'm worth them too.[/QUOTE]

This is where I am at, I doubt I have been communicating my feelings well in the past and now I have more confidence with them it seems to have worsened my situation.

There's so many things I'd like to say and ask but my overbearing question is How much is enough?, if someone wont help themselves and continue on a self destructive path when do I take myself away from that? 

I don't wont to give up on her but I'm exhausted and starting to lower myself into the behaviours and dropping my performance in all other aspects of my life. I feel guilty just thinking about giving up but I see no end to any of this. 

After 13 years with next to no improvement I don't think I have it left in me to see it through.

Sorry to bring this up again.


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