# How to get her interested in giving oral



## Gr8Guy (Aug 2, 2014)

My wife is not much into giving oral. I give it to her although it's not her favorite to receive. She has tried it twice on me but is very timid about it and doesn't want to keep it up for long. She has such a light touch I can barely feel anything. My sex therapist recommended a book for women called "Blow Him Away." I got it but so far she has not read it. She is not against it per se but just not into it.

She is pretty traditional when it comes to sex. It took me a long time to get her to try reverse cowgirl. I like to throw in some positions/acts that are more visual for me. Not all the time just some of the time. 

Any ideas on getting her more interested?


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Ultimately, you can't (or shouldn't) make someone do anything they don't want to do. She ultimately has to either want to do it for herself or want to do it for herself because she wante to really please you by doing things she knows you like. This will involve trust and likely learning on her part.

A traditional approach of training any creature to do new things is called conditioning and breaking things into small tasks that they can manage. It is usually more effective if coupled with positive reinforcement.

My advice to you is to give your W unconditional love. For each little bit she tries praise her from the depth of your heart. Praise her when she reads the book the therapist suggested. Praise her when she gets comfortable touching and holding your P. Praise her when she will rub it against her cheeck, etc. Make her feel loved and her efforts are appreciated and she just may go all the way. Talk to her and tell her how crazy in love you are with her.

Good luck.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

My wife tried it once a long time ago and never wanted to try it again. I think women generally don't like it and may do it as a favor for their men. And non-Caucasian women probably hate it even more and think it is "disgusting".


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

nirvana said:


> My wife tried it once a long time ago and never wanted to try it again. I think women generally don't like it and may do it as a favor for their men. And non-Caucasian women probably hate it even more and think it is "disgusting".


Agree, they think it's "ickky"


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## Cecezakat (Jun 20, 2015)

I know many women who don't enjoy giving oral particularly when they were virgins and are not familiar with P in general. There are a few things you can do about it and see if she warms up to it. It is possible she won't push herself to get used to it for your benefit and you may need to accept it because being pushy about it will kill your sex-life completely. Make sure you are always freshly washed and smelling decent and then give her a lot of attention to warm her up properly before asking. Massage/caress her arms, legs, back, and feet and stroke her hair. Anything she enjoys more, do that more. If you relax her for 15-30 minutes then you can ask her to lay her head on your stomach and hold your P, then kiss, then oral. Don't push her about it and don't ask every single time until she is more comfortable giving you oral. When she does give you oral, be more obvious about how good it feels to you so that she could really see how that is a way for her to make YOU feel really good. Breathe deeper or be more vocal, anything to let her hear and see the effect she is having on you. Keep stroking her hair if she likes that while she is doing it and praise her that she is really good at it (even if she isn't). If she isn't experienced giving oral then you need to simply have patience. She can become more comfortable and better at it with time. She needs to become more familiar with your P, by you relaxing her properly first and encouraging her to do it for any amount of time she wants. Also, its best to not make her swallow. Whenever she does more than normal or even full oral make sure to give her big hugs afterwards and over praise her for doing it, how amazing it was, etc. By making her experiences giving you oral more pleasant (warming her up, being clean, not forcing her to do more or swallow, not always asking for oral as a predictable part of having sex, being more vocal about how good she is at it and how great it makes you feel) she will start to associate oral sex as a rewarding part of intimacy with you. You may find after time and patience that she wants to give you oral how and as much as you want.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I think it's rare to find a women who enjoys giving oral sex, they do it to make their man happy and he does it to her so she wants to return the favor. Have you tried suggesting 69 to her? She may not mind giving oral when she is getting it at the same time. It gives her something to think about besides giving him oral.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Gr8Guy said:


> My sex therapist recommended a book for women called "Blow Him Away."* I got it but so far she has not read it.* She is not against it per se but just not into it.


May I ask how you presented her with this..."book"?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

How long have you two been married?
Why are you seeing a sex therapist? 
Why are you seeing a sex therapist without your wife?


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## Cynthia (Jan 31, 2014)

Thanks, Personal. That answers a lot.

I think you need to stop masturbating and learn to enjoy sex with your wife, even if it means you are frustrated for months on end. You preferring masturbation over your wife is unhealthy. You probably don't feel anything, because you've been man handling yourself and are not used to the gentle touch of a woman. Why would she want to try when you show so little interest or response to her? Of course she's not interested in giving you oral. The pleasure in that for a woman is in seeing her man in ecstasy over what she is doing for him. If she gets no response, she's not going to enjoy it and will think it's pointless and upsetting.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

There's a lot of gender stereotypes in this thread!

It has nothing to do with being a woman.

What is DOES have to do with is being uninterested in providing pleasure for your partner (male OR female). Trust me when I say this - there are an equal number of men who are not interested in giving oral sex to their partners, especially as a standalone thing.

There really are two types of people when it comes to sex - those who get something from providing their partners with pleasure, and those who do not.

A huge part of sexual pleasure for me, is ensuring my partner is taken care of. Otherwise, I feel like I'm using her for my pleasure, and this is a huge turn off for me.

On the flip side, some people are fully capable of this. Sex is more about them, then it is about their partner, or the combination of the two. Ideally, you want a good balance, but it's unlikely you'll ever change somebody's view on this.

I know I will never, ever, receive oral sex from my wife unless it's part of foreplay. It's fruitless to stress over it and try to change her attitude, it just won't happen. She doesn't think it's gross, or even particularly difficult. When it's part of foreplay, she'll often do it for 4 or 5 minutes at a time. And she's good at it. And she gets into it.

But there's a return for her efforts. Whereas if it's on the couch, with no return for her, she absolutely will not do it. She feels used or something. That's her right. But there are people like me out there (of either gender) who have no problem giving with nothing in return. If my wife wanted me to give her oral sex, with nothing in return, I'd jump at it.

The act of sexually giving is pleasurable to some, boring to others, and degrading to a few. All depends on the general personality type. Good luck changing it.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Gr8Guy said:


> Any ideas on getting her more interested?


I have a friend in his second marriage that his wife does not like to give BJ's. He once bragged to me that if he took her shopping at outlet stores and got her a new brand name handbag/purse that she would pretty much do anything. Then he got too lazy to go shopping with her, and bragged that he would ask her to give him a BJ for $100 and she would do it.

Now I sat there and listened to this in complete disbelief among stories of him also complaining about having to go to court over alimony for his first wife, but nonetheless what I said above is indeed a true story. It might work, but I would not recommend resorting to paying your wife for sex unless you are a twisted political activist trying to advocate for better benefits for individuals in the sex worker industry or something of that nature.

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

badsanta said:


> I have a friend in his second marriage that his wife does not like to give BJ's. He once bragged to me that if he took her shopping at outlet stores and got her a new brand name handbag/purse that she would pretty much do anything. Then he got too lazy to go shopping with her, and bragged that he would ask her to give him a BJ for $100 and she would do it.
> 
> Now I sat there and listened to this in complete disbelief among stories of him also complaining about having to go to court over alimony for his first wife, but nonetheless what I said above is indeed a true story. It might work, but I would not recommend resorting to paying your wife for sex unless you are a twisted political activist trying to advocate for better benefits for individuals in the sex worker industry or something of that nature.
> 
> ...


You're so funny!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

nirvana said:


> My wife tried it once a long time ago and never wanted to try it again. I think women generally don't like it and may do it as a favor for their men. And non-Caucasian women probably hate it even more and think it is "disgusting".


Oh for heaven's sake. "Women" are not all the same. We are not all cut from the same cookie cutter. MANY of us love our husbands, are GGG. Just because your wife is not into you does not mean that "women" aren't into their husbands.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think a lot of people have difficulty getting into the mindset that sex is lots of fun things you can do for each other. Its a mix of things that are mutual and things that are done for the fun of seeing your partner's pleasure.

Oral sex can be a particular problem. For most people performing oral isn't directly physically pleasurable, but your partners response can make it wonderful. It just needs to be mutual - sometimes you do it for them, sometimes they do it for you.


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## VixNz (Jun 22, 2015)

alexm said:


> It has nothing to do with being a woman.
> Trust me when I say this - there are an equal number of men who are not interested in giving oral sex to their partners.


i love both giving oral to my H and receiving from him

My husband thinks giving and receiving is derogatory. In the 8 years we've been together he's let me give him oral maybe 6 times. 2 summers ago he even came in my mouth, i think thats what killed it, cause he wont let me near anymore. (w/mouth)

I used to think he liked giving(he used to do it) until i asked the other night... Makes me feel a bit insecure 
its frustrating and confusing.


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## Tobin (Jun 24, 2015)

She's not interested in oral, she's never going to be interested in oral.

The only chance you might have had was before marriage, when you could have said 'before we make this permanent, we gotta fix this whole no BJ thing'.

Now she's got the ring, and no reason to do anything she doesn't want to do.


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## Tobin (Jun 24, 2015)

AnonMale22 said:


> Hmmmmm I disagree. Couples often do things to please each other.)


Its never going to get as good as it was before the wedding.


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## Cecezakat (Jun 20, 2015)

Tobin said:


> Its never going to get as good as it was before the wedding.


From what OP has said I'm not sure there was a "before the wedding part".


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## violet37 (Apr 8, 2014)

The rules of BJ's in marriage:

Rule #1: He/she must take pleasure in giving pleasure. Let's face it, there is no g-spot located anywhere in the oral area. I know, I took Anatomy. `:smile2:

Rule #2: Proper grooming. This means freshly showered. Last night's doesn't count. Trimmed. Bye-bye Sasquatch, time to clean up your act!

Rule #3: Proper mood. Nagging, griping, and working someone into the ground or just in general ticking us off does not make anyone want to give you a special treat. Violation of this rule will automatically lead back to Rule #1.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

NobodySpecial said:


> Oh for heaven's sake. "Women" are not all the same. We are not all cut from the same cookie cutter. MANY of us love our husbands, are GGG. Just because your wife is not into you does not mean that "women" aren't into their husbands.


Agree with most of this, but the implied message that no BJ's = "she's not into you", not so much.

I, again, think that men or women who do not give oral sex as a standalone act, can be just as into their partners as those who do.

What it comes down to, I truly believe, is that some people are just not built to give, unless there's a quantifiable and immediate return. Couple that with (real, or imagined) feelings of being used, and it'll never happen without a real and honest personality change.

So for people like me, who do not need an immediate ROI, and who are also primarily "givers", doing things like standalone oral sex is perfectly fine.

For people like my wife, who does need a visible and immediate return, and who is neither giver nor taker, standalone oral sex just won't happen.

I could talk to her until I'm blue in the face about how, if she were to do that once in a while, of her own accord, the overall benefits to our relationship (sexual or otherwise) would be visible. But if it is not an immediate return (ie. we have sex, she orgasms), then she has no interest.

Part of it is due, at least in her case, to feeling that it is a somewhat degrading act, if not returned. I can't argue with that, and I'd be a fool to try to. Part of it is due to the fact that, although she enjoys receiving oral sex, orgasms from it, etc. it is not enough for her on it's own - she needs PIV. So giving and receiving oral sex with each other, in the same session, with nothing else, is not going to happen either. For her, oral sex is only foreplay for me, or occasionally the finishing move. There is no oral sex, given or received, without their being PIV as well.

In my case, this issue has nothing to do with my wife "not being into me". What it IS, is my wife not being a giver OR a taker (she won't accept me giving her oral sex unless there's PIV, either).

For what it's worth, I actually think that partners who used to, regularly, give oral sex but who no longer do (and often make excuses for it), are the ones who are "not into" their partners. At one point, he/she was not just willing, but into, providing their partners with pleasure this way, and likely received a great deal of pleasure by doing so. Then it stops.

But others, like my wife, just never were from the get-go. Maybe it's the way she was raised, maybe she had some bad experiences with it, who knows? Oral sex, especially by women, on men, CAN be very degrading, and I am willing to bet that many women have had bad experiences with it. From having a boyfriend push your head down to his crotch, to even overhearing a group of men/boys talking about how "so-and-so sucked my **** last night" followed by high fives, and talk of what a w***e she is.

Furthermore, the culture we live in these days, especially with the younger generation at the moment, is that oral sex isn't "sex" and that it's perfectly normal and acceptable, and casual, even expected. It almost means nothing to the current generation of teens and early 20's. As many of these young women grow up, they will suddenly have the realization that oral sex actually IS sex. By that point, they may have had sex with 1 or 2 people, but given oral sex to 10 or 20. And they're probably not going to feel very good about that (or they might, if they have a healthy attitude towards sex). But by the point that they're ready to settle down, get married, etc., standalone oral sex (or even at all) will have been correlated with casual encounters and an overall negative vibe.

To make a long story short (sorry) - oral sex is one of those acts that gets vilified and has a stigma attached to it, especially as far as women and younger girls are concerned. We men, while younger, tend to make it out to be a non-loving act, sexual in nature only, something that we'll accept from virtually any girl, including those that we wouldn't have sex with. That's the reality, whether we like it or not.

When I was 17, a girl gave me a BJ in my car once. I didn't ask her to do this. I had driven her home one night so she didn't have to take the bus. I didn't expect or imply any return for the favour, and more importantly, if she had verbally offered as a way of thanking me, I would have declined. In retrospect, it was clearly her way of thanking me for the lift, but because she did not imply this, I happily accepted. Now, my point is that this was not a girl I would have had sex with, let alone dated. Oral sex was literally the only thing I would have accepted from her. If she invited me into her house to "thank me", I would have declined. If she had tried to have sex with me, I would have declined. If she had specifically said "I'm going to blow you because you gave me a ride", I would have declined. Yet I happily accepted it from her because she just did it. I was 17. But even then, at age 17, if there had been a verbal or otherwise obvious implication on her part that this was BECAUSE I did something for her, I wouldn't have let it happen. I'm sure that girl has long since forgotten that act, however if this was something she did many other times for the same reasons around that age, then it's highly possible that she has negative connotations derived from it. Or she may not, of course. It may be empowering to her, I don't know. But not all people are the same, and I could understand if that particular girl has an aversion to performing oral sex as a standalone act now, in adulthood.

So imagine you're a young girl, and you do things like this (or it is occasionally expected from you). Once you mature and realize that this is not something you "have" to do, or that many men will treat you with respect even if you don't give them BJ's in the car, then it becomes a negative in many respects.


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## jimmy909 (Jun 25, 2015)

Not to mention the health side of things. It has been linked to throat/mouth cancer. Populous virus (??something like that.)

These teens that have performed oral on 30+ boys...are playing with fire. later on in life they could regret it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Bugged
there seems to be more disagreement on this than on almost any other sexual issue. As far as I can tell the two sides run to :

1). I don't like it, its uncomfortable / gross / demeaning. Why do you want me to do this thing that I don't enjoy. I'm happy to do all sorts of other sexual things with you. You seem so selfish.

or

2). Its so wonderful for me, why won't you put in the small effort it takes. I put all sorts of effort into doing things for you, why won't you do this for me? You seem so selfish.


Then to complicate things, for some people receiving oral is their very favorite sexual activity. For others they can take it or leave it, or maybe don't even like it.

For some people giving oral is fun, or maybe just a minor effort - so you get a slightly sore jaw / tongue. For others it is degrading and nasty. 

Yet another argument for premarital sex. 



I think the specific answer to your question is that people's experience of oral sex is so different that they cannot understand the opposing view. 





Bugged said:


> Why is it so difficult to undesrtand that some people simply are not into it and that age, grooming and loving your partner has got nothing to do with it..?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> Why is it so difficult to undesrtand that some people simply are not into it and that age, grooming and loving your partner has got nothing to do with it..?


Well, it all depends on what one means when they say that they "aren't into it".

I'm not "into" watching 20/20 for an hour or two with my wife. I would never do it on my own and it gives me no pleasure. However, I do it anyway because spending the time with me is very important to her and it makes her happy. Her happiness is important to me.

If my wife enjoyed inserting a dildo in my a$$, she'd be out of luck. I would actively dislike that and, as important as her happiness was to me, I couldn't do it. Hopefully deal breakers such as this have been identified prior to marriage.

So, if bjs give me a great deal of pleasure (and they do), I'd really have a hard time understanding why she wouldn't do that for me. I'd have to question how important my happiness is to her. 

If she actively disliked it, hopefully I'd find that out before marriage and take that into account.

So, if you actively dislike giving bjs, tell your SO that. Don't tell him "I'm not into that".


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
It all depends on what is meant by "do not like".

I don't physically enjoy giving my wife massages, and my hands / arms get tired, but I am happy to do it because she enjoys it.

I do not like going to jazz concerts (I find the music actively unpleasant). but go with her because she enjoys them. 

Lets say she had a fetish for urinating on me. That is something I would actively dislike ad find gross, but I would tolerate it if it really excited her.

Lets say she had a fetish for needles. I have a strong phobia of needles, so I would not accommodate that fetish no matter how much she wanted it.


In some ways "make her do" is the wrong way to think of it. I do all sorts of things for her because I enjoy making her happy. Why would she not want to do the same for me?




Bugged said:


> So you'd rather make her do something you know she does not like, because you like it?
> Would be a huge turn off for me.:surprise:


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Yes there is a psychological motive. If you think about it though, anything other that sex for procreation isn't really "rational" and could be viewed as a sort of aberrant behavior. Some non-procreative acts are enjoyed by such a large portion of the population that I think they have to be viewed as "normal" rather than some soft of issue that should be solved. Disgusting is in the eye of the beholder:

Kissing - I mean sticking your tongue in someone else's mouth - yuck! Yet a large number of people enjoy french kissing.

Homosexual activity - yikes - imagine being pressed up against another guy/girl. Yuck. Again something enjoyed by hundreds of millions if not billions of people.

Spanking - why would you hurt your partner? But many people enjoy spanking or being spanked during sex.

Anal - super gross - but a significant number of men and women enjoy giving or receiving anal. 

In fact normal intercourse is sort of gross - sticking a penis in someone else's body? Everything all wet and slimy. Why would anyone do that when you can get pregnant by artificial insemination. 


I'm not trying to give you a hard time (or at least not too much). I just think that when some activity like oral sex is enjoyed by a significant fraction of the population, it really can't be viewed as disgusting if that term is to mean anything. 

I could imagine some particular act being in general abusive if very few people enjoyed receiving it, but oral sex isn't in that category. There a lot of people who think oral sex is a fun thing to do to their partners. 


Now a particular person may find oral sex gross - but maybe they are the outlier. 

There is also the problem that in a relationship if person A is happy to do whatever person B likes, but person B is very limited in what they enjoy, A becomes the virtual sex slave of B - doing what B wants, how B wants, and when B wants. Even though each is using the rule of "don't do things you don't like", the result is an extremely unbalanced sexual relationship. 





Bugged said:


> :surprise::surprise:
> 
> No I mean...it's pretty clear to me that women that don't give bjs find it gross....honestly it is beyond me how on the contrary other people can tolerate disgusting things just to please others...I mean...urinating on you?:surprise:
> First of all one should try and find out why his/her SO are so turned on by disgusting acts..c'mon.
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> So you'd rather make her do something you know she does not like, because you like it?
> Would be a huge turn off for me.:surprise:


I think you must be purposely misinterpreting me.

If she "actively disliked" it, I wouldn't want her to do it. However, hopefully I wouldn't be in a relationship with her.

If she was anywhere from "indifferent" to "actively liking" it, I would expect my happiness to matter enough to her give it a go.

If she "wasn't fond" of it, I'd expect her to make an effort to work through it for my sake (as I would do for her).

Should it "turn me off" that my wife would like me to watch a hour of TV that I don't enjoy for her sake? It doesn't. I'm happy to do it. I enjoy the time with her and it's not much of a sacrifice. Am I supposed to insist that she watches what I want all the time? Should we just spend our time in separate rooms watching what we're each "into"?

Is a relationship only about doing things you're "into" without ever compromising for your partner's benefit?


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Dip yourself in Godiva chocolate sauce if she likes chocolate. How could she resist you then?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> If my wife enjoyed inserting a dildo in my a$$, she'd be out of luck. I would actively dislike that and, as important as her happiness was to me, I couldn't do it. Hopefully deal breakers such as this have been identified prior to marriage.
> 
> So, if bjs give me a great deal of pleasure (and they do), I'd really have a hard time understanding why she wouldn't do that for me. I'd have to question how important my happiness is to her.


I don't mean to stray off topic, OR pick on you too much, Buddy, but - if your wife wanted to put a dildo in your butt, and you never had before, then why would you say no? I mean, I GET it, to a certain extent. But if your (or somebody else's) wife says no to oral sex, there's an extremely high probability that she's at least tried it before, no?

If somebody says no to something they've never tried before (within reason, of course) then that's really not much of an excuse, is it?

I don't particularly want a dildo in MY butt, either, but if my wife wanted to try it, then why not? I have NO idea what it'd be like, so it's pretty difficult to form a solid opinion without trying it. If it was somehow important to her, I'd make the effort and go from there.

What I'm trying to say is that, I assume you have never had a dildo in your butt. I could be wrong, but your wording implied that. It's not something you are willing to do, ever, regardless of the fact that you have no idea what it'd be like.

If somebody's wife refuses to give BJ's, it's a near-certainty that she's done it before, and formed an opinion. Thus, she has a valid (to her) reason for not doing it. Whereas your reasoning is a simple "because I don't want to".

I say it's a near-certainty because oral sex is part of sex, a part of exploration, etc. It's the norm. If there's a heterosexual woman out there who has never, ever, put a penis in her mouth even once, I don't believe it. However, there are many, many men who have never put something in their butt. Therefore comparing the two is irrelevant. Not the same at all.

I would have a BIG problem if my wife refused to do oral, and had never ever done it before. But she has (and still does as part of sex) and knows why she doesn't like it (or won't do it on its own). She won't tell ME what that reason is, but she doesn't have to, either.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> It all depends on what is meant by "do not like".
> 
> I don't physically enjoy giving my wife massages, and my hands / arms get tired, but I am happy to do it because she enjoys it.
> ...


All married couples should read the words above, and live by them. These general guidelines apply to marriage in general, not just sex, and would go a LONG way to eliminating the need for such places as TAM... 

There's almost nothing I would not do for/with my wife, for the sake of our marriage, and her enjoyment of life. I Obviously have my limits, but they're not nearly as low as "no oral sex" or something else equally foolish.

Even though I don't get standalone BJ's, and respect my wifes wishes in that regards (however begrudgingly), I still think it's completely and utterly idiotic that either one of us have such soft limits in what we're willing to do for each other. Oral sex is such a simple, enjoyable thing to do to, and for, one another. As Richard said, he hates giving massages. So do I. Can't stand it. She gets a rub down and feels relaxed, while my hands and back cramp up, lol! Yet I still do it, because she gets so much enjoyment out of it. Which gives ME enjoyment.

I mean, duh.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> oh c'mon...suppose your wife was turned on by watching you having sex with other men, would you try it to see if you liked it? The Romans were pretty blasè about these things after all...:wink2:
> Why is someone supposed to try things they don't want to try..in Africa they eat insects...would you eat grasshoppers? maybe they taste good...only the thought makes me vomit...


I did say everybody has their own limits. Mine isn't as low as an inanimate object in my butt. But I have no sexual interest in other men, so that'd be a limit - for me.

I wasn't suggesting for one minute that if somebody's wife wanted to put something in his butt, that he should. I was just opining that, even something like that is really no big deal. It doesn't make you gay.

However, my REAL point was in regards to oral sex. If a man or woman absolutely refuses to do it, then I'd hope to God that he/she has actually tried it before, and knows they don't like it. Oral sex is completely, 100% normal (not that gay sex isn't, by the way, but let's not drag this thread down that road).

Being pegged in the butt by your wife? Not so normal. Being peed on? Nope. Bondage, pain, whips? Not really.

If you haven't tried oral sex in your lifetime, then there's something wrong with you, to put not-too-fine a point on it. "I'll let you stick your tongue down my throat and exchange saliva with you, but your penis isn't going anywhere near my mouth." Alrighty then.

I was really just pointing out that refusing to perform oral sex (without ever having tried it before) is not at all the same as refusing to put something in your butt (without ever having tried it before). It's easy enough to say to one's wife "nope, that ain't happening, ever." and have her understand, at least a little bit.

But if the wife says "nope, not happening, ever" to performing oral sex (without ever having done that before), that's apples and oranges right there.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

nirvana said:


> My wife tried it once a long time ago and never wanted to try it again. I think women generally don't like it and may do it as a favor for their men. And non-Caucasian women probably hate it even more and think it is "disgusting".


I would have to disagree here. I known of many that enjoy giving as well as receiving. My W gives me the works when it comes to BJ's.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> I mean..I'm a vegan...most people I know eat corpses, I find it disgusting..am I supposed to start eating corpses because the mojority of the population does?:nerd:


I'm a vegan too.

But like me, you probably spent a good deal of your life eating animals, as did I. Therefore we have that experience to fall back on, and we can both sit here and say "nope, never happening again".

I think that's generally fine when it comes to somebody's reluctance to perform oral sex. They obviously have SOME reason to never want to do it again. However, I think some people may take that as a slight offense. I know I do, to a certain degree.

My wife will not do it as a standalone thing for me. I know she has, for others, in the past. And there's a reason she won't do it now.

So the egotistical side of me, which we all have, says "hey, but I'm not THOSE guys. THOSE guys are the ones responsible for you feeling the way you do about this subject, not me!" I'm not going to grab her head, or force her down, or pull her hair, or pump her mouth, or pull out and shoot it in her eye, or whatever other thing made it such a negative experience for her.

So all I hear is that other people (or one person) made it that way for her, and I have to live with the consequences of that.

Yes, it's somewhat selfish, but it's also a reality. My wife DOES perform oral sex, and quite well. And she gets right into it. And she swallows. But it's only ever during sex, as foreplay or after she's done. No complaints.

On it's own, for the sake of pleasing me (even with the promise of a return for her at some point)? God no. But she'll give me a great 1/2 hour rub down when I'm sore and not expect anything in return. 

That's like 28 minutes more effort! :grin2:

But there's no feeling of degradation, I guess, from giving me a long massage.

Therefore, all I can do is say "F*** you" to whomever treated my wife like an object at whatever point in her life...

And that's what I was saying about 3 or 4 posts of mine before - oral sex is really, REALLY easy to get screwed up about, especially for women. And guess what? We guys, when we're young and stupid, do it to ourselves.

The average 17 year old now knows that it's not okay to pressure a girl into sex, or to otherwise take advantage of her - for intercourse. The days of "come on, baby, I paid for dinner" or whatever are sort of over. (SORT of).

Yet it doesn't seem to apply to BJ's, because young people, male AND female, don't correlate oral sex or handjobs or fingering as actual sex. It's almost as common these days as french kissing was in my day. Hell, it's barely even cheating if your girlfriend gives one to another guy. It's about as "cheating" now as it was if my girlfriend made out with some guy when I wasn't around.

And we wonder why so many women are averse to oral sex these days. They have the sudden epiphany at some point in their lives that it actually DOES mean more than they thought it did.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> i think we had a misunderstanding about the word 'dislike'..for me it is actively dislike...not indifferent..otherwise i'd use indifferent...I guess we agree on this..as for the tv ...I'd buy 2 tv sets.lol


Actually, I think the misunderstanding was over the phrase "not into".

"I'm not into that" and "I really dislike that" are worlds apart in my book. But, I guess "not into" isn't all that well defined.

All cleared up now.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> It's not clear to me were we're going with this...I'm not judging people that want to perform oral sex...I'm against making it a big deal and a reason to put pressure on your partner..I mean..I'm a vegan...most people I know eat corpses, I find it disgusting..am I supposed to start eating corpses because the mojority of the population does?:nerd:


As long as you realize that you're in a minority (i.e. vegan, oral sex), that's cool. But it's going to cause problems for you (as you are no doubt aware). I'm sympathetic to your situation. Have you ever tried to get past this?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> But if the wife says "nope, not happening, ever" to performing oral sex (without ever having done that before), that's apples and oranges right there.


Actually, I'd disagree. I think that most women (certainly older wives) that won't do it never tried it. And, if they tried it, they wouldn't like it because they had just a dislike of the idea in the first place.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> And we wonder why so many women are averse to oral sex these days. They have the sudden epiphany at some point in their lives that it actually DOES mean more than they thought it did.


I'm pretty sure there are a LOT more bjs these days than there were in the past.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> But why?Why is this a MUST?Who says one has to do it? What defines what's _normal_? Why is it so important, can't you do something else?That's my point.


It isn't a MUST. 

But most guys want oral sex. If you won't do it, that's going to reduce the pool of relationship partners that are available to you Just like being a Vegan is going to reduce the number of restaurants you can go to.

As for "normal".

If society considers something "normal", men will feel it is something they are reasonable to expect. If society considers something "abnormal" (i.e Golden Showers) then men will feel that it is NOT something reasonable to expect. 

"Doing something else instead" isn't an good option because "something else" isn't what they want. If you want to go see a movie, is taking a walk in the park just as good?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> My wife will not do it as a standalone thing for me. I know she has, for others, in the past. And there's a reason she won't do it now.
> 
> So the egotistical side of me, which we all have, says "hey, but I'm not THOSE guys. THOSE guys are the ones responsible for you feeling the way you do about this subject, not me!" I'm not going to grab her head, or force her down, or pull her hair, or pump her mouth, or pull out and shoot it in her eye, or whatever other thing made it such a negative experience for her.


This would drive me crazy.

In fact, it did. I could never understand why; knowing how much my wife loved me; knowing how much she _said_ that she cared about my happiness; knowing that she knew how much I enjoyed this; it happened so rarely. So, finally, I made a big deal out of it. The end result was bjs whenever I wanted. She claims to enjoy doing it more than ever. She claims that she never knew how important this was to me. So, looks like it was my bad for not making my needs known.

I know this drives you crazy as well (I read all the bj threads :smile2.

Is your wife aware of your thoughts on this?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm pretty sure there are a LOT more bjs these days than there were in the past.


I would agree.


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Bugged said:


> Thanks for the sympathy..nope...I honestly do not think it is a big deal.
> It grosses me out, I can't help it, moreover me and my partner are on the brink of separation so I honestly couldn't care less.>


Why does it gross you out? I mean, I wouldn't want to give random men bjs, but my husband - that's a different story. Do you allow your husband to give you oral sex - or do you think that's gross too?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

OK I admit when I saw the title of this thread I thought "well thats going to cause a stir". Ho do you make someone like something?
Then the stack of quotes really made me wonder. I know that Oral for me is 9/10 not going to make it to completion without heroic effort. Probably why it isn't all that important to me. So why does the OP think he needs this? Well only he knows. 

Then the commonly repeted chorus of it's degrading, historically, traditionally, culturally. So is sex. I'm pretty sure that currently Cunninlinguis is universally expected. I can't see any reason to treat Fellatio differently. 

I'm going to throw in an example. When My Wife was a young Teen she was sexually abused by an Adult Male relative. The Abuse involved hand jobs. So if anyone ever hasd an excuse to hate, detest, find degrading any sexual act that would certainly be her and hand jobs. She couldn't keep her hands off my stuff from the very start. What I'm saying is people can change if they want to. 

In general I agree that showing love and excitement is the way forward. Trying to find some magic word or convincing argument will fail. A little bit of openness is important in any relationship. Absoloute block walls are rarely helpfull. (except brocolli and asparagus)
MN


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> Honestly..I don't care a lot about what people expect from me...or society..I guess I could be an anarchist...


I'm not saying anyone should do anything just because it's expected of them. Far from it. I'm something of an anarchist as well.

If you truly believe that driving below the speed limit in the left hand lane is the right thing to do, go for it.

Just don't be surprised at the reaction you get from other drivers.


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## nirvana (Jul 2, 2012)

Yeswecan said:


> I would have to disagree here. I known of many that enjoy giving as well as receiving. My W gives me the works when it comes to BJ's.


Lucky you 

But I think overall if someone does a survey, most dislike it as opposed to liking it.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
The problem I see is that it is easy to get to a very unbalanced relationship. One person really cares about their partners happiness and will do almost anything they ask. The other is very selfish and only wants the things they personally enjoy. You end up with sex being the first person only pleasing the second because they are both "just doing what they want".

The more "giving" person can start turning down their partner, but that turns lovemaking into haggling. OK, I'll do X for you for 5 minutes buy only if you do Y for me for 7. 

To me lovemaking is each person trying to please the other, not each trying to get as much as they can while doing as little as they can.


i understand that some people find some common sexual activities really unpleasant - that's fine. Its just that I think people should have a pretty high bar for what is too unpleasant to do in bed if their partner wants it. 

There is very little I wouldn't do for my wife in bed, not because it is done in trade, but because I enjoy making her happy. She has finally started to do more things for me in bed - I think she finally realized just how imbalanced things had become. And that finally makes it feel like she actually loves me. 








Bugged said:


> snip
> 
> How about everyone does what both people enjoy?I guess we fall in case where person A is the slave..it's an aporia.
> :surprise:


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Buddy400 said:


> This would drive me crazy.
> 
> In fact, it did. I could never understand why; knowing how much my wife loved me; knowing how much she _said_ that she cared about my happiness; knowing that she knew how much I enjoyed this; it happened so rarely. So, finally, I made a big deal out of it. The end result was bjs whenever I wanted. She claims to enjoy doing it more than ever. She claims that she never knew how important this was to me. So, looks like it was my bad for not making my needs known.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't say it drives me crazy. Standalone BJ's are not really something I _need_. But it's the whole thought process around it that bugs me. In all honesty, it could be anything. If she hated holding my hand, for example.

It's a difficult subject to broach with anybody - why they correlate "X" with "Y", even though the circumstances (and person) are completely different.

Like I said, I'm only speculating as to why my wife doesn't do this as a standalone act, but will as part of regular sex. There's obviously a reason. It's something she has done before (including with me, when we first dated some 20+ years ago, before we broke up for 15 years). Now it's completely off the table. Therefore, it's likely something negative happened over the years that caused her to say "no more".

My issue, if it's even really an issue, is that I am not that guy, or guys, who somehow turned this into a negative for her.

So rather than vilify the person or persons, or even the situation, it's the act itself that got vilified.

I know I tend to overthink things, but that's me, for better or for worse. But the reality is that this refusal to do this one thing makes me feel like I'm lumped in with everybody else, if that makes sense.

So put it this way - it was once something she had no issue with doing (with me, I was her first, and with others). At some point down the road, it became a negative for her. I don't know how or why, and I don't want to know, either. Maybe she got caught when she was 19, and she got a reputation. Maybe somebody took advantage of her. Maybe somebody secretly taped her and showed all his friends, causing her embarrassment. Maybe one guy was a little too forceful. I don't know.

But it drives me crazy when somebody has a bad experience with something (anything) in a totally different scenario, with totally different people, and then abjectly refuses to ever do it again.

Because, especially in this case, it's not the act that was negative, it was the situation, or the person who MADE it negative.

It's like saying you're never going to any restaurant ever again because you got a hair in your soup at this one place.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> Also I think when someone makes a big deal of sex act X it means someone has shifted the focus from feelings to sex, and it is a* HUGE red flag for a relationship.*
> Huge.


I think more often than not, it's a feeling of personal rejection, rather than lack of a certain sexual act. Just my opinion, and I speak from my POV.

In my case, I would love for my wife to WANT to give me stand alone BJ's. As much or as little as she wanted. Once a week, once a month, 4 times a year - honestly wouldn't make a difference to me. The fact that she actually wanted to is truly all that would matter to me. I can get on board with her not putting any importance into it, as far as she is concerned. I can't get on board with her saying it's not important to her, therefore it's no longer important to me. (she didn't actually say that, but it's implied by her actions/inactions).

I would never ask her to give me one, that's not my style. Just like she shouldn't have to ask me to hold her hand, or kiss her. Nobody should have to ask their partner to do something intimate (sexual or non-sexual) that their partner knows they enjoy, require, desire. Just my opinion.

I know what my wife wants and needs in the marriage, and I give it to her. The things that I don't particularly enjoy or even think about all that often (because they're not important to ME), aren't done as often as I'm sure she'd prefer, but they're still done.

Moreover, I make sure I don't reject her in any way, shape or form. No, I may not do "X" on a daily (or even weekly) basis, but I DO make sure to do "X" occasionally. It's about balance. If "X" is not something I require in a marriage, but it's important to her, I make damn sure that she gets it, even if it's only once in a while. If I refuse to do "X", based on the supposition that I had a negative experience doing it with, say, my ex wife, then that is a rejection of her, plain and simple. And the reason I refuse to do "X" is based solely around my ex wife and how SHE made it a negative for me.

I don't believe this mindset is okay in a healthy marriage. Refusing to do something because my ex wife ruined it for me is not an excuse that my current wife would swallow very well, I don't think. She's not my ex wife.


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## melw74 (Dec 12, 2013)

I do not think its rare at all to find a woman who enjoys it..... for a start there is one right here, and i know many. Of course i know a few people that hate it that either do not like it or do of course do it to keep their man happy, but there are also women out there that love doing it...

I have said it before, my husband would probably faint if i told him no more blow jobs .

It must be hard for a man if he does loves getting them and his partner does not, but if you really do not like giving them then i am afraid your partner has to accept it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> But why?Why is this a MUST?Who says one has to do it? What defines what's _normal_? Why is it so important, can't you do something else?That's my point.


Nobody says you have to do it. If your husband doesn't care either way, then it's a non-issue.

But the problem begins when one person requires something that their partner abjectly refuses to do for, or with, them.

Marriage isn't about living your life, your way. It's about sharing and caring and showing your partner that they are important - to you. It's rarely the act itself (whatever that act may be) that's the issue.

Marriage is two people. Marriage is meeting in the middle. Marriage is about changing yourself, while your partner changes themselves, to form a solid symbiotic bond. Hopefully one in which the two of you become better people. And you can still maintain a healthy independence while being married.

My first marriage failed miserably because my ex wife refused to budge even an inch when it came to anything. There was no "coming together". It was her way, or not at all. (and believe it or not, I got BJ's...)




Bugged said:


> I'm very sorry for your wife..but in general it's considered a degrading act by many people..


Some people, yes, but not "many".

I think those of us who don't, have a hard time understanding why some people do. To me, personally, I find nothing degrading about giving somebody pleasure. Whether it's man on woman, or woman on man. It's an act of giving, when it's done under the right circumstances.

It CAN be degrading, but that's entirely dependent on the attitude of the receiver. But if the giver goes into it feeling degraded from the very start, that's their issue, no?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

good evening
Its the same duality. It is:

you would perform this sex act if you loved me

OR

When you love someone you are willing to make great efforts to make them happy.


Maybe the root issue is that some people find oral sex to be fundamentally degrading. To others is its a completely normal part of intimacy. To some a BJ is a humiliating chore, a sign of degradation and servitude to an abusive partner. To others it is a quick fun way to make your partner go crazy with pleasure. 


To me oral sex is just a natural part of intimacy. Being turned down feels the same to me as if my wife decided that she didn't want to kiss me. 




Bugged said:


> snip
> Also I think when someone makes a big deal of sex act X it means someone has shifted the focus from feelings to sex, and it is a* HUGE red flag for a relationship.*
> Huge.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> I think this feeling of rejection does not stem from a 'selfish' partner but from someone's insecurities..and a self-imposed set of _things _that are supposed to constitute a _display _of acceptance and love.
> problem is, it is all in *your *mind , it's got nothing to do with the partner...
> @alexm does your wife expect stand alone oral-sex to feel loved and appreciated? Maybe she can't understand why you want that because for her it's not a big deal...and she does it during sex so she doesn't understand the feeling of rejection (honestly i find it very hard to understand that as well..when is enough enough)?


I can't answer this any better than Richard did above. Honestly.

Everybody's entitled to their opinion, certainly including you. I just think that, generally speaking, you are on the extreme end of this opinion, whereas many (including those who don't perform oral sex, stand alone or at all) are more in the middle. And that's okay.

From my experience only, my wife does not view oral sex the same way you do. As a stand alone act, it's degrading and/or it makes her feel used. As part of sex, not at all. That's also fine, honestly. I had one discussion with her about this subject - one. I'm not out to change her mind or have her see things my way. I respect (as I said, begrudgingly) her opinions on it, and won't argue them.

That said, I genuinely hope somebody here might read this and think twice about the logic behind it.

My wife won't give a stand alone BJ, yet she will happily, and without any sort of prompting, do it during foreplay, or at the end. She will give me a 30 minute long massage, or spend 2 hours cooking dinner, or go out of her way, sometimes with great effort, for this, that and the other thing.

Yet two minutes of doing something she ALREADY DOES but in a different setting, does not compute to me (and it doesn't have to).

So like I said, it is almost certain there is a reason for this, and it has nothing to do with me, therefore it is moderately insulting. Why? Because she should know me and trust me enough by now to know that I'm not going to turn it into a degrading act for her. Quite the opposite, really. If anything, it'd be a positive in our relationship in a myriad of ways.

Listen, here's where we're not seeing eye to eye on this (and that's okay, too!) - to me, and many many others, the act of providing sexual pleasure for those we love is completely normal and natural. And yes, expected. We ALL have our limits, absolutely. Some are more... narrow than others.

But oral sex is PART of sex, it's part of foreplay. It's not necessary every single time, no, but neither is intercourse. For me, personally, I get harder if there's oral sex as foreplay. A dry hand does not have the same effect on me. A lubed hand is definitely better. Etc. For my wife (and many women), oral sex on them has the same effect. It's a warm up, so to speak. Especially if said woman has a harder time getting aroused or lubricated. My wife is multi-orgasmic, and she very much enjoys an orgasm from oral prior to having one from intercourse. Does she need that every time? Of course not. But the whole experience is better. There have been times when she has had every orgasm possible during one session. Oral, intercourse, finger, anal, g-spot (and squirting), vibrator. They're all very different from each other.

And it's not a whole lot different for men. Generally we're not multi-orgasmic, but sex is better when there's more variety, more positions, and more intensity.

How we men feel about a handjob as foreplay is probably very similar to how many women feel about a dry hand rubbing their vagina. I mean, it works, sort of, but... yay?

As long as two people, who are in love, respect each others boundaries when it comes to sexual acts, then each person should (or would benefit from) meeting their respective partners needs. If the gap is too far to meet in the middle, then there's a compatibility issue. Nobody HAS to do more, or accept less, but it's generally a good idea to make an effort.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> I wouldn't say it drives me crazy. Standalone BJ's are not really something I _need_.* But it's the whole thought process around it that bugs me*.


Exactly!

It's like if my wife knew there was something that made me really happy which she could pick up for me at a store near her work that would cause her to get home 15 minutes later than usual. And I know there's no real reason why she can't (it's not a dangerous neighborhood, etc). But she rarely does it.

If the situation was reversed, I'd go 30 minutes out of my way *every* day. 

This leads me to think that my happiness isn't as important to her as her happiness is to me. To me, caring about one's happiness is a big part of loving someone. So, when she won't do for me what I would do for her, it causes me to question her love. 

Now, I know that people are different and they don't do the same things that I would for the same reasons. But, if someone "loves" me but doesn't care about my happiness, what good does that do me?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Bugged said:


> I also* totally reject this equation sexual act x=love*..it's a very *very dangerous idea*...like if you won't do X for me then you don't really love me..you're selfish etc etc...there's something off/wrong IMHO


But that's not the equation that we're talking about.

We're talking about "caring about our happiness" = love.

If she actively hated giving bjs and didn't give them (and never did), I wouldn't say that she didn't love me.

If she was fine with giving bjs (didn't really enjoy it, but didn't mind doing it either) and she didn't do it, I might question her love.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Bugged said:


> I think this feeling of rejection does not stem from a 'selfish' partner but from someone's insecurities..and a self-imposed set of _things _that are supposed to constitute a _display _of acceptance and love.
> problem is, it is all in *your *mind , it's got nothing to do with the partner...


My wife knows I love her already, so I'm going to stop making such a big deal about saying it. Because you know, it's just a display, and her needing me to constantly say it is just insecurity on her part.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> My wife knows I love her already, so I'm going to stop making such a big deal about saying it. Because you know, it's just a display, and her needing me to constantly say it is just insecurity on her part.


Actually I think I could count the number of times I've said it in the last ten years on one hand. She doesn't generally say it either.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good morning
But all intimacy is "in your mind". No one physically needs touches, stroking, kisses, hugs or statements of love. Theses are all things that many people "irrationally" desire from their partners.

No if someone has a real limitation, that is understandable. If my wife were confined to a wheelchair and couldn't give me a hug, I wouldn't mind at all.

Similarly if some sex act caused someone a lot of distress, then I would not suggest it. In many cases though, oral sex does not cause lots of distress, it is just something some people don't enjoy.

It is the sense of your partner refusing something that is a minor effort for them that causes the sense of rejection. For example, my wife normally won't do bjs, even though she knows I love them. But, on my birthday she will. Takes a few minutes, she is in no obvious distress. When I'm done, she rinses her mouth then comes back to bed for me to please her. By every indication she doesn't *hate* it, it just isn't something she particularly enjoys- but she will only do it once a year. (she has been trying more often recently and that is appreciated).



Normally I'd hope it is something a couple could discuss early in a relationship to be sure that if one wants this a lot and the other hates it, they can go their separate ways. Unfortunately is not a normal topic of discussion early in a relationship. 







Bugged said:


> I think this feeling of rejection does not stem from a 'selfish' partner but from someone's insecurities..and a self-imposed set of _things _that are supposed to constitute a _display _of acceptance and love.
> problem is, it is all in *your *mind , it's got nothing to do with the partner...
> @alexm does your wife expect stand alone oral-sex to feel loved and appreciated? Maybe she can't understand why you want that because for her it's not a big deal...and she does it during sex so she doesn't understand the feeling of rejection (honestly i find it very hard to understand that as well..when is enough enough)?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

There is a Christian oriented website called The Marriage Bed that addresses this in very direct and unambiguous detail. Their focus is not to look at this as a dysfunction but as an opportunity to learn to love one another more. The 'therapeutic approach' to everything isn't always the best way to go. It's rather patronizing for one and misses the deeper point it for another.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Bugged
But who is the she selfless one. The person who will do anything for their partner, or the one who will not?

It would be a sad empty relationship if neither person ever went out of their way to make the other happy.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Just my 2c


I am a veggo (and for the purpose of oral there is no difference between vegan and veggo) and I enjoy giving him BJ and swallowing, I actually find it funny that I do swallow considering the veggo connotations. But it is not about that, to me it is about love, yes sex = love to me, no other man or woman can speak for me. I love him so much I want to rock his world, I enjoy the act and I seriously enjoy making him happy.

Oral sex is not such an out there thing, to me it is a very normal, every day part of sex and love making, it is intimate, feels good and is bonding. I am happy to say that I am a very demanding woman, he laughs as he tells me that yes indeed I am very demanding as I tell him what I want in our sex life. So be it, we are good, we enjoy each other, we give and take as much as we can. Life is short.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> The problem with threads like these is that the *premise itself* is wrong...you cannot *get *someone interested in giving oral sex..age and abuse have nothing to do with that...had she been interested she would have gotten interested by herself...
> The men on this thread look a bit 'demanding' to me in their need to feel appreciated and loved in 'materialistic' ways...maybe they have very demanding wives as well..I dunno.


Disagree. Of course you can.

There were many things I did not like, or even ever try, before I met my wife. Things that I even somewhat resisted (as I made the assumption that I would not like it, or in one case, had tried before and did not like at all).

Some of those things I am still not a huge fan of, and some of them I have changed my tune and now enjoy. Again, it's all about coming together as two people. She has done the same.

FYI, I'm talking about both non-sexual things, as well as things in the bedroom.

The second part of your paragraph, I find to be sexist. There have been similar threads right in this forum in which wives inquire about how they can get their husbands interested in performing oral sex on them. It definitely goes both ways.

Also, my wife, for some unknown reason, virtually stopped giving me oral sex during sex, a few years ago. It got to the point that there might have been some cursory oral contact (ie. 30 seconds or less), every 3 or 4 times we had sex. Otherwise, foreplay was reduced to hands only. This lasted a few months. So I did the same, in return.

Guess who mentioned it first? Not me...  The odd little comment about how she wasn't getting warmed up properly, or about me putting it in so soon, or she needed more than my hands down there to get fully aroused. Really? 

So I don't know if she tried to sneak one past me, she was getting lazy, she had heard the old myth of BJ's being non-existant after marriage, or what. But once she realized she was faced with the same in return, it came back just like that.

Bugged, as somebody said above, you sound young, and you have also mentioned you aren't married. Both of which are okay, obviously! But marital dynamics are vastly different than other relationships. My ex wife went into our marriage with the mindset that she would not lose an ounce of her independence, and she was successful. Believe it or not, it was actually one of the things I admired about her. But in practice, it generally does not work. There always has to be an element of "we're in this together", never mind giving up some of your own self in order to be closer with your partner/spouse. This does not mean one has to cater to his/her needs, or agree to everything, and no, it does not mean either partner has to do things they object to. But you do have to make compromises, or at least be open to change occasionally.

You may never perform oral sex on your partner, or potential husband, and that's okay - as long as he is okay with it, too. Honestly. I, along with most other marriage veterans, simply think that it most definitely IS an issue that requires disclosure, pre-marriage (among many, many others).

Your views on the subject are not as common as you seem to think they are (ie. finding it disgusting and demeaning). The reality is, imo, that most women do not LOVE doing it, yet WILL do it, at least occasionally. Especially when their partners are pulling their weight in the needs department. Oral sex tends to be one of the first things to disappear from a relationship/marriage, but it's often because the other partner is slacking off somewhere else. It's not always because one partner consciously says "now that we're married, THAT can finally stop!". That's a bit of a myth. It just tends to be one of the easiest things to remove from the menu when hubby starts getting lazy meeting her needs. It's almost becoming a running joke, not just from men, but from women, as well. My wife has cracked that one on more than one occasion.

Furthermore, I don't find that most men have the same outlook on that subject. I think that if a man performs oral sex throughout the dating period, it'll generally continue on right through marriage. It's not really something that we guys put a stop to once there's a ring on the finger. In all honesty, we guys either do it, or don't do it. We tend not to take it away, and there's no running joke about never having to do THAT again now that we're married. (and if any of you out there did this, you're a jerk!)

Yes, there are women (and men) that love doing it. I am one of them. I am not the only person on TAM (man or woman) that loves doing it. And there are just as many who hate doing it, too. But I honestly think the majority of either sex don't MIND doing it. It's not necessarily a pleasurable experience for them, nor is it a negative one. The truth is, most men and women do this for their partners because they get the same in return (or other things). That IS how relationships and marriages work and remain successful. Nobody likes the connotations of "tit for tat", but that's reality. That IS what marriage is based around, especially sexually. There's little interest or motivation to do the things your partner requires in a relationship if he/she is not giving you the same consideration.

On the flip side, most men and women very much enjoy receiving oral sex. I would venture to say that those numbers are very equal (despite the fact that oral sex on a woman is much more difficult to perform well...). But they generally don't match up with the percentages of partners willing to perform oral sex. So it's, unfortunately, one of those things that a majority of people enjoy receiving, yet not nearly as many people want to give. And that speaks volumes, and not in a positive way.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Bugged said:


> *I think love is selfless.*..I mean that most of the times, when I read posts on this forum, it looks like love is a 'do ut des'..so I'll love you only if you show me love, the way I want you to show me love...that's BS to me...all I hear on this forum is _needs_...I don't think love has got anything to do with finding someone who'll satify YOUR needs...
> maybe marriage is? I don't know. I'm not married (and I'd say thank God at this point).
> I loved my partner for what he is..and I still do.* I don't care a lot about him satisfying MY needs*...
> 
> ...


What needs of yours are going unmet by him?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
I tend to reject the Victorian idea of "pure" love. I think sex is closely connected to the idea of love. Think of romance stories and change the genders to remove the sexual attraction. Titanic with two straight guys just doesn't work. "Outlander" becomes a guy film about hitting things with swords. "Pride and Prejudice" a story about financial contracts. For most people romantic love doesn't exist without the sexual attraction. 

Some sex is mutual, but a lot is more like gifts. Intercourse is generally mutual, but most men and many women are "one and done" - after an orgasm they lose interest in sex for a while. Should someone stop after an orgasm and leave their partner hanging? I think the proper thing to do is after at most a very brief recovery time, find some way to give your partner an orgasm as well - even if you don't particularly feel like it because your needs have been met.

I think of kissing, use of hand / fingers, intercourse, and oral sex as things that are normally expected in a sexual relationship. That isn't to say that someone *must* do it, but is is a normal part of sex. I don't think anyone is being unreasonable if they are denied one of these things.

Other activities I put in a different category because they are extremely unpleasant for a significant number of people: anal, BDSM, etc. are enjoyed by some people, but I don't think of as in any way expected because they are so unpleasant / painful for some.

It is OK to not perform oral sex, but in doing so be aware that your partner is likely to feel that they are missing something that is a normal part of most people's sexuality. If you really can't stand it, that's fine, but if it is no worse than other chores you do, then do it as a gift for your partner to make them happy.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Bugged said:


> I'm not even sure what needs he's supposed to meet..I would say none are going unmet...


All too often, people don't realize they have any particular need until it goes unmet. It is also not uncommon for people to appear unneedy, when in fact, their partner is simply good at intuitively meeting their needs.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> I said men because the posts were mostly from men...


There's a lot of women in this thread.



Bugged said:


> Again 'do ut des'....sorry I find it _terrible_...also it can drive you nuts..my partner once told me I was being selfish for not letting HIM perform oral sex on ME...so what do you do?..do you have an excel spreadsheet to keep track or reciprocation? With formulas and so on?


I wouldn't disagree with him, though it's not at all the same as not receiving, of course. I don't think I'd go so far as calling somebody selfish if they refused oral from me, but I'd definitely be scratching my head.



Bugged said:


> Here we go again with the age stereotype...I'm not young *quite the contrary since I'm 40!!!*
> OP is in *his mid 50s* so unless he married someone that could be his grandaughter I guess his wife is no spring chicken either...
> I was in a relationship for 8 years, OP has been married for 20!!!
> One does not need to be young, immature, CSA, inexperienced, have hung ups etc etc..*that's my point*.!!


You ARE young!  (I'm the same age). With all due respect, don't think of it as a stereotype, but rather... how do I put this... a somewhat immature view of something? I honestly don't know how to put that without being insulting to you, which is not my intention.

The use of the word "disgusting" to describe giving (and apparently receiving?) oral sex isn't a terribly mature description, however apt it is to you. I don't know, I just think that, at my age, I no longer describe a food I don't like as "disgusting" and "oh my god, how can people eat that???". I usually just politely say "no thank you", if offered that food.



Bugged said:


> my partner never asked for it. If it is an issue that requires disclosure pre-marriage, ok I agree with you *then what*?


I never asked for it, either. It was just something I inquired about at some point into our relationship, to gauge her reaction. Obviously it was not something my wife (then girlfriend) was going to do on her own, and I'm a gentleman, and gentlemen don't ask for BJ's. But I did ask her if there was a reason she didn't do oral sex (or handjobs, for that matter) outside of SEX sex. I never really pressed it after that, but the general answer was rather vague - don't want to, not interested. FWIW, I also let her know that I am MORE than willing to take care of her needs if and when actual intercourse is not wanted, or possible. Again, no interest.



Bugged said:


> Actually I said it's gross...the demeaning connotation* is a social construct.*.after all..****sucker is an insult..and oddly it is an insult in all of the languages that I speak...


Those words, I've always thought, were given by men, to other men. The insult is not so much in the actions, as they are in the connotation that the receiver of said words is gay. Which, sadly, is insulting to far too many men. We are free to interpret insulting words however we want to, but I think most people see that particular one in that way.




Bugged said:


> But I 've *never *said anything against people that perform OS. I honestly don't have a problem with it..it's just tiresome that when one doesn't he/she's either immature, young, inexperienced, traumatized, selfish, lazy, unloving etc etc...
> 
> for *some*, it is. Doubtless.
> 
> ...


Listen, believe it or not, I GET what you're saying. What I'M saying is that many, many men take the lack of sexual giving by their partners much the same way as many, many women take the lack of non-sexual intimacy from THEIR partners.

A huge irony with this is that we men aren't often able to complain about the lack of our needs being met, without being deemed as sexed-up male oppressors who want to show their dominance over their woman. And I'm a feminist. I kid you not.

Men's needs are often very very different from women's needs. We all know this. Sex and sexuality is generally the way we give AND receive love in relationships. Especially long term relationships. Having a partner or spouse who WANTS to meet these needs for us, even occasionally, is absolutely no different than wanting us to want to meet THEIR needs. If my wife always, constantly, every single time, needs to ASK me to hold her hand, or hug her, then eventually she's not going to feel like her needs are being met, or more importantly, that I care enough to meet her needs of my own accord. And the reverse is true.

I honestly don't know how my wife would take it if I told her I don't hug or kiss unless we're having sex. And if she asked me why I never hug and kiss her, unless we're having sex, I told her "Because I don't want to. Not interested. Makes me feel like I'm being used" or something along those lines. I don't know if she'd continue to be married to me for much longer. But our (generally male) needs are not construed as nearly the same, particularly by women. (for what it's worth, there are definitely women out there who wouldn't stay with a man who doesn't provide them with oral sex, so it's not just a male-centric thing. Just as there are men out there who require non-sexual intimacy, as well.) In short, generally speaking, men give and receive love through primarily sexual acts, especially giving and receiving. And generally speaking, women give and receive love through non-sexual acts (also giving and receiving). Yet in my experience, men are selfish ***holes if they do not hug or kiss their partner, or aren't cuddlers or hand holders, or are "too manly" to hold a purse or buy tampons, et al. But when our needs are not only not being met, but being abjectly refused, we are still selfish ***holes for even complaining.

But as I said earlier, I do not, nor ever have, asked for oral sex from my wife, or any other woman. To me, it is an act of giving, and up to that person to provide, not for the receiver to ask for.

My wife wants me, no - requires me - to kiss her, hug her, hold her hand, get close to her on the couch or in bed, etc. She should not ever have to ask for these things from me. Those are her needs, and I am sure to provide them, no matter what my own feelings are on those actions. None are "gross", obviously, but none are particularly things that I require in a relationship, at least not at the frequency that she does. But those are her needs, and I'd be doing a piss-poor job of being a good husband and partner if I only thought of my own needs.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> depends on the food...some people would call escargots disgusting or stuff like that..would you eat a dog like in China..recently some hypocrites were enraged because in somewhere in China they eat dogs..as if pigs were less intelligent or empathic than dogs..but I'm digressing...


Yes, I also find many things disgusting. What I'm saying is that the more mature we are, the less we actually SAY these things, out loud, to others who do not find it disgusting. As I said, I don't eat animals, yet I live with 3 omnivores. I just eat my own dinner, without mentioning to them what I think of their dinners.



Bugged said:


> are you sure we're talking about _her _needs in this case..my partner was always making offers of this kind..for his own _entertainment_..>


I said it once and she hasn't taken me up on it. Of course I'd love to do it. Of course I'd love for her to ask (or tell) me to do it. It's not for my "entertainment", though. I like to give. She's not interested in it, other than during sex. As I mentioned in this thread earlier, I once stopped doing it during sex, and she quickly took notice... A few times over the years, I just did it without asking, and she enjoyed it very much. Didn't have to return the favour, and I didn't get anything in return, other than the satisfaction of satisfying my wife.

For a lot of us, that alone is hot, sexy, and an ego boost.



Bugged said:


> Maybe..I've heard people insulting both men AND women with the sentence suck my ****..a number of times though...I think in English too but I'm not so sure...


Can't disagree with you too much on this. I just think that so many insults have lost their meaning, and are just that - insults. Calling somebody a retard, for example. To a lot of people, it's just a word. It barely even has connotations of being mentally challenged (or whatever the current PC term is). If you look up the etymology of the word "idiot", you'll see that it meant something very different than it does now. It used to mean, long, long ago, that one was blue collar, as opposed to a professional. (teacher, banker, writer, etc.) That insinuates that somebody who has a laborious job is less of a person than those who do not. These days, "idiot" is a throwaway insult.



Bugged said:


> Actually ALL my life I've heard men saying that to them sex !=love, at all..that they'd **** anyone that wasn't too repulsive without feeling anything and blablablabla. All my life.
> This theory that love ==sex for men is pretty new to me, it's not that I don't believe it _rationally_..but getting the memo at my age is a bit _late_...
> Maybe that's why your wife feels used dif there' nothing in for her?


You are right, and wrong. Men (AND women) do not ALWAYS equate sex with love. However, once one is with somebody they DO love, then it becomes that, unequivocally. Love changes sex.

It's still fun, and it's still a physical need (for most), but it suddenly becomes a very real emotional and intimate need, as well. For both genders.

That said, the similarities between single person sex and married person sex are many. Yes, a single person (of either gender...) may have sex with 4 or 5 different people in the span of a few months. There is no love involved, obviously, but the needs and desires are the same. The need to be wanted by somebody. To be close to somebody. To know that somebody, anybody, desires you. And yes, physical needs as well.

Having sex 4 or 5 times in the span of a few months isn't a lot of sex - if you're in a relationship. Having sex 4 or 5 times in the span of a few months with varying partners, is apparently a lot of sex - for a single person.

But the base needs are the same. The difference is that you know the person you have sex with isn't committed to you, therefore you're free to go out and have sex with somebody else whenever you feel the need.

In marriage, it's really not that simple, unless both partners are on the same page, with the same frequency requirement. People like me have partners whose requirements are not nearly the same, therefore our needs are not being met in those regards.

If I was single, I could theoretically have these needs met on a daily basis. Especially these days with the internet, dating sites, craigslist, tinder, etc. (I wouldn't, by the way, not that it matters)

So you can see our frustration when it comes to this subject, and those that don't understand that sex, to many of us adults, is not about SEX, but it's about intimacy, emotional needs, desire, closeness, and LOVE.



Bugged said:


> I absolutely agree with that...problem with 'do ut des' or tit for tat , though is that if someone is too much of a giver and is as much demanding when it comes to 'receive' the risk of wrecking a relationship is very high...too much pressure.


I don't quite agree. The acts of giving and receiving are really very simple. If somebody is worth it, then you give without the expectation of an immediate return. All that you expect from your partner is that they feel the same. Period.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Bugged said:


> Yes but you expect them to give you the way you want to, not they way they feel like.
> I took that test about love languages..If i remember correctly I was
> quality time 8, physical touch 2...my partner was physical touch 8...no wonder it's leading us to break up...on the other hand if people stopped with the do ut des..or being concentrated on needs being met..I don't know...whatever.:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


This is where the "work" part of maintaining the relationship comes in. To me, it seems kind of stubborn to have the mindset of meeting one's partners need in the way one wants as opposed to the way the partner wants. Sort of like giving someone a birthday gift THEY like instead of what the other person asked for.

At their core, all relationships are about tit for tat. If one deems the relationship not worth while, they end it. As an extreme example, take the physically and verbally abusive wife...she is not meeting her husbands need for security in the relationship. She may not see anything wrong with her behavior because, after all, her temper is a part of her. His response is to stop being around her, to keep his mouth shut when he is. He is no longer meeting her need for intimacy...and the cycle continues.

A caring and conscientious partner would start by saying to themselves...Ok, I love this person, and I want them to know just how much, so how can I best convey that to them so that they understand? It's really no different than giving a book written Latin to someone who only speaks English. Sure, they could go and learn Latin, but why, as the giver, would one want to do that when it would have been just as easy to give them the book in English?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> This is where the "work" part of maintaining the relationship comes in. To me, it seems kind of stubborn to have the mindset of meeting one's partners need in the way one wants as opposed to the way the partner wants. Sort of like giving someone a birthday gift THEY like instead of what the other person asked for.
> 
> At their core, all relationships are about tit for tat. If one deems the relationship not worth while, they end it. As an extreme example, take the physically and verbally abusive wife...she is not meeting her husbands need for security in the relationship. She may not see anything wrong with her behaviour because, after all, her temper is a part of her. His response is to stop being around her, to keep his mouth shut when he is. He is no longer meeting her need for intimacy...and the cycle continues.
> 
> A caring and conscientious partner would start by saying to themselves...Ok, I love this person, and I want them to know just how much, so how can I best convey that to them so that they understand? It's really no different than giving a book written Latin to someone who only speaks English. Sure, they could go and learn Latin, but why, as the giver, would one want to do that when it would have been just as easy to give them the book in English?


Couldn't agree more with this.

If one takes the time to understand their partner and their needs, vis-a-vis their own needs, then it kind of goes without saying that you do your utmost to meet theirs, with the expectations that they meet yours.
@Bugged, I get your point(s), I really do. My wife seems almost exactly the same as you in regards to relationships, so I know all too well where you're coming from. She also knows what my language is, yet stubbornly refuses to budge on them, never mind the fact that I routinely meet hers. Her arguments are much the same as yours. It all boils down to "this is me, if you don't like me, then leave", and this is where the question of maturity arises.

The reality is, at least in my wife's case, that this is not her first rodeo when it comes to LTR's, and from what little she's told me about her previous experiences, they have generally gone in the same direction, with the same general issues surrounding them (sex). Yet she still will not budge when it comes to this subject. There's something she doesn't quite "get", and/or she's far too proud, independent, whatever, to tackle the issue. She, like you, would rather fight me on it than "cave", because in her mind, it would be a defeat.

I would never tell her this, but she'd be better off finding somebody who has the same mindset as her. Low drive, or outright no drive, for example. Somebody to whom sex is a non-issue. But the irony is that I actually think if she was with somebody like that (ie. never chased her for sex, or sometimes rejected her, or otherwise didn't put ANY importance on it whatsoever), then it'd become an issue to HER.

For her, sex is something that's always come to her. She's never had to chase it, ever. Therefore, as somebody put it in another thread currently going on TAM, it is something that she can, and has always been able to have, whenever she wanted it, however infrequently that is. Which lessens any desire for her.

The handful of times in my life that I've rejected her, she's actually been upset. On those rare occasions, she's not actually after sex because SHE wants (or needs) it, but it's about putting forth an effort on her part, generally for my sake. So when I've rejected those advances, it upsets her greatly. She once barely spoke to me for 2 days.

Rejection is one of the worst feelings you can ever have, especially when it's from somebody who you love, and who supposedly loves you back. It'll happen from time to time, but when it's a regular occurrence, it's painful. When you know you have a partner who speaks a different language then you, you learn that language, and vice versa. Otherwise the pain of rejection will eventually become too much and everything implodes.

All it takes is to learn enough of another language to get by and effectively communicate. You don't need to become fluent in this language, just passable. Refusal to even learn the first word of this language spells relationship doom.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I believe that relationships are best when each is making a real effort to do whatever they can to make their partner happy.

Love isn't about questioning. I don't ask my wife *why* she wants to go to a jazz concert, or why she cant just listen to a MP3 - I happily go with her (I hate jazz) because it is something she enjoys.

There are lots of things both people in a relationship can enjoy together, but I wouldn't reject doing things that only one of you enjoys.


OTOH, this is not about jazz, it is about sex and people have very strange feelings about sex. There are people who will happily do hard miserable physical labor all day, change baby diapers, or spend hours doing paperwork, but who will completely reject certain sex acts with their partners. It is not that they are selfish (though it may seem that way to those partners), but there is something about the way people think about sex.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I believe that relationships are best when each is making a real effort to do whatever they can to make their partner happy.
> 
> Love isn't about questioning. I don't ask my wife *why* she wants to go to a jazz concert, or why she cant just listen to a MP3 - I happily go with her (I hate jazz) because it is something she enjoys.
> ...


I would go one step further and say, at it's heart, it's about trust...trusting one's partners needs and fulfilling them to the best of ones ability without question. Trusting that your partner has the relationships best interests at heart when expressing a need, and trusting that they have the same desire to meet your needs as you do theirs. Once that trust is broken, motives become questioned, resent builds...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

It would seem that the chances of finding a partner that adds something to your life (otherwise, why have one?) who at the same time requires no changes what-so-ever or compromises on your part is so unlikely that it would not be worth pursuing.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

I' m sorry, but does anyone but me chuckle every time you read the title of this thread? Next up, "how do I get my husband interested in purse shopping?"


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> @alexm are you talking about your 'current' wife?I'm asking because your first wife was similar in some way, maybe more 'extreme' in that way?..maybe that's what you're attracted to in the end? I mean I have exactly the same attitude.'This is me', and it was the same attitude I had when me and my partner were dating...I'm also completely _aware _that someone might say 'ok, **** it!' and leave..I can accept that...I don't think this '_mindset_' s got anything to do with maturity or selfishness...honestly...


Yes, my current wife  My first wife, believe it or not, actually did a better (?) job speaking my languages. In fact, I'd say we shared the same ones, it's just that we weren't terribly compatible sexually. Not in terms of desire or need, but in terms of execution. I can't really explain it any better than this - our drives were very similar, we both initiated, but our actual sex wasn't all that good. Not on the same page, I guess. We were incompatible in other areas, too, but drive wasn't one of them.

Whereas with my current wife, our drives do not match at all, yet our sex life is ridiculously good, for both of us, however infrequent.



Bugged said:


> I wouldn't call it defeat...I would call it not being yourself...letting someone change you...maybe to you it's not a big deal just because you are _different _(I have no idea if this is just a personality trait or it's due to life experiences or upbringing, in my case I think upbringing but I'm not very good at psychology...)...which doesn't mean necessarily that you're right and she's wrong...


Using the words you just used: "letting" someone change you - speaks volumes at how you see relationships. It's not about letting, or allowing somebody, to change you. It's changing for them, of your own volition, and to be honest, it's what you DO in a relationship with somebody you love. Of course you change. You really have no choice, if you want to be successful at love.

The thing is, some people tend to be reluctant to give up much of themself for the sake of the relationship, or their partner. In theory, it's okay. If you have to change TOO much to make something work, then it's probably not the right choice. But it's the little things, here and there. It's not about changing your entire self to suit your partner, but it IS about bending a little here and there, growing, making positive changes, etc. And yes, you expect the same in return. If you, say, spend 5 years with somebody, and you are not the same person you were 5 years ago, but your partner is, then there's an imbalance, and only one person has done any growing.




Bugged said:


> that's because she knows sex is important to YOU so if you reject her there must be something seriously wrong...


I wish that were true. No, she does not handle rejection well, at all. Nobody really does. For her, being rejected sexually is not something that has ever really happened before, primarily because she'd never really been in a position to BE rejected. As I said, it's always come to her.

I've talked to her about stuff like this before. She fully admits that every relationship she's ever been in, she's the one who was pursued in the first place. She's also never been broken up with - she's always done the breaking up. And when she was younger and had casual sex, they always came to her, not vice versa. In other words, everything relationship or sex related has been initiated by others, and every end to these relationships has been initiated by her.

So somebody saying "no" to her in these regards was foreign, because it never happened.



Bugged said:


> but from another POV if you learnt HER language, you'd know she's not rejecting YOU, she just doesn't want to have sex...that's why I think this whole theory of love languages doesn't work very well...


But that's the language I speak (well, not "sex", but touch, with affirmation being secondary). So rejection of me sexually hits on both of my two main languages.

Hers are quality time and acts of service, both of which I give to her in spades.



Bugged said:


> But you know, something that might seem easy to you, might not be so easy for someone like your wife...especially when we talk about someone's intimate life ...
> To tell you the thruth though I've personally come to the conclusion that people like me (and maybe like you're wife?) are not *marriage material*...my partner was pretty shocked when I told him that, after a lot of soul searching , I did not want to be his wife...even if the truth is that I did not want to be his _first _wife..>


Everybody is marriage material  (well, if they WANT to be married, anyway. Not everybody does)

It's just that some people are willing and able to learn a new language, and some are not. My wife and I are great in many, many ways, and we definitely DO love each other, and there's a reason we are married. We didn't just jump into it.

But the reality is that we might be a better match with different people. For her, she needs somebody who's languages match hers, as she won't change to match somebody else's.

For me, I'm flexible, and willing to learn other languages, however I require somebody who already speaks mine, or who is willing and able to learn them. I need touch (sexual and non-sexual), I need sexual intimacy, I need to be desired, and I need words of affirmation. My wife requires none of these, and that's okay.

Basically, everybody is better off with a partner who already speaks the same language from the get-go. Second best is being with somebody who has no issue with learning your language.

If and when you find a good match, that makes you marriage material


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I've gone purse shopping with my wife. I enjoy her company - oh and the purse shop was in Venice :smile2:



Hoosier said:


> I' m sorry, but does anyone but me chuckle every time you read the title of this thread? Next up, "how do I get my husband interested in purse shopping?"


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think Alexm has a point that there are a lot of people who have never experienced rejection or at least not rejection of touch / intimacy. They have partners who will do anything for them so they have never learned what it feels like.

I can't imagine my wife's reaction if she asked for a back rub, or wanted to cuddle on the sofa watching TV and I said "no, i don't feel like it tonight, I'd rather play WOW". 

For people who regularly turn down your partner's sexual requests, have you been directly turned down? Maybe some people are bothered by rejection and others are not? Its just that knowing how it feels, I would never do it to someone I love.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I have never understood the mindset of "I'm not going to change who I am for someone else" People naturally change to their environments through their entire lives whether they realize it or not. To me, it comes off as stubborn, defiance when I hear that line because it is almost always about something that is not actually a change to a persons core self, rather just a different behavioral expression of core feelings that are already supposedly there.

Going further along the idea that relationships take "work"...lets suppose one learned a skill to do A,B, and C at one job, then they got a new job where they said we do it B, C, A...most people would learn to do it the new way, of course there are some who would quit rather than change. I don't see relationships any differently.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I think Alexm has a point that there are a lot of people who have never experienced rejection or at least not rejection of touch / intimacy. They have partners who will do anything for them so they have never learned what it feels like.
> 
> I can't imagine my wife's reaction if she asked for a back rub, or wanted to cuddle on the sofa watching TV and I said "no, i don't feel like it tonight, I'd rather play WOW".
> ...


It's crazy, but it's real. I find, and pardon my generalization, that it's mostly women who go through life like this. Not all women, certainly, there are most definitely many of you who chase just as much as are chased!

But my wife is a good example of this. She's almost the perfect storm.

For starters, she doesn't handle rejection well, at all, in any aspect of life, not just sexual or relational. I suppose most of us don't, really, and it's not like she gets TOO down about it or anything, but she also tends to not let it roll off her back, either.

When it comes to sex and relationships, as I said, she doesn't do the chasing. Except one time. And guess what? She was rejected. She was young (17ish), and this was not long after we broke up after dating for 3 years back then. He was a slightly older (19 or 20) co-worker of hers, and quite the player. He friend-zoned her quickly, but she didn't give up for several months. He ended up being her prom date, and she admits now, all these years later, that he probably agreed to do it out of charity. They were in the same friend circles at that point, and for a little while afterwards, but he kept going out with (or just hooking up with) countless other women, so she eventually gave up I guess. Or got the message. One or the other. It happens.

The thing is, after she and I had broken up, she went a little wild for a short period of time, and had no trouble finding dates (or casual things), which boosted her ego. The guy she was after was, in her words, out of her league, but she didn't realize it at that time. She had had lots of success and no rejection, so she reached a little for this guy. He was older, and looked like a male stripper (not kidding). She was 17 and 50lbs overweight and looking for a boyfriend. He was a player and quite enjoyed being one. Just not with 17 year old chubby girls still in high school.

I think when this happened, it made her crash back to earth a little bit, and she stopped chasing. In her words, every other boyfriend, or casual hookup, or date she ever had from that point on, came to her. Including me. She put her first wall up (of many...) She got a taste of rejection, which was probably rather humiliating, given that she chased this guy for 1/2 a year, and she's never put herself in that position again. Although they had mutual friends and still saw each other after prom night, that was it. She said they did absolutely nothing on prom night (if you know what I mean...) and that's when she finally "got it". She had her hopes up for a magical night with this guy, ending the way most prom dates end, and it didn't happen. Boom. Rejected.

My wife is very much the type of person that, if she fails at something, she will never do it again, ever. She's not the "get back up on the horse" type at all. That doesn't keep her from taking risks or trying new things, but once and once only. And that's a shame. Not just for me, but for her. It's limiting.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Maybe were are different. For me rejection - from parents (which I've also experienced), or from a spouse hurts very badly. That's why I would try so hard to avoid doing it to someone else. Maybe if it happens a lot when you are young, you build up a resistance to it?

Why would you ask for sex if you didn't want it? If you are doing it as a favor that is different, I' talking about when you *want* sex and your partner says no, for no particularly good reason.



Bugged said:


> Actually i think it's quite the opposite for a lot of people..I've experienced rejection from my own parents when I was young, I had a _very _dysfunctional family. Maybe,I can only talk for myself I don't know, that is where all the 'independence' stems from.
> My partner has a very loving family..he's definitely a giver.
> 
> I wouldn't mind...I guess your wives are very 'emotionally' demanding that's why you feel somehow _fooled_?
> ...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
In Venice, quite a large number....:smile2:

I've gone with here several times. As I said, I like her company. Its not like purse shopping is unpleasant, just boring. 





Bugged said:


> How many times in a row, would you enjoy purse shopping?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Long term sexual mismatch does not get resolved except thru divorce, affairs or serious medical problems (as in "I thought I was going to die so I figured I better boing my spouse as often as I can before I do").

If you find yourself in a long term sexual mismatch, either divorce or shut up. Those are your choices. That's it.

I say that as a person who has been in a serious mismatch for 23 years. Learn from my mistakes. Get out early or accept your fate. Whining and moaning as I have done for decades is for losers.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> In my case being a 17ish chubby (Asperger's)girl caused the 'That's me take it or leave it' attitude. The alternative was unthinkable...
> maybe your wife was bullied? I don't know just guessing..I've never been 25 lbs overweight...I'm 5'9'' so I was big and I was bullied A LOT..just guessing here...:laugh:


I don't think she was bullied, no. Made fun of, yes, but not to the point where it affected her adult life. I've always been made fun of for my height, 5'7", but it really doesn't bother me, unless it's something that's pointed out when I first meet somebody (which happens more than you'd think!) The first time I met one of my wife's cousins (who nobody likes) she said "wow, you're much shorter than I pictured you!". I replied quickly with "you're much fatter than I pictured you!". My wife was impressed with my quick wit - not something I'm known for - but her cousins husband was not...  Anyway, my wife handles comments like that much the same way, with humour or sarcasm back.

I knew her when she was 14, and we dated for 3 years - each other's first relationship. Yes, she was made fun of, but it didn't affect her as much as it may some others in the same situation. I can't explain why.

She's always been curvy, voluptuous, and she's extremely good looking. She has also always carried her weight well, even after having two kids. She's never had trouble with interest from men, either. Yes, she's overweight, but she's not "fat", if that makes any sense.

FWIW, apart from her (twice), I've never dated or been with similarly overweight or chubby women. My ex wife was, at one point, under 100lbs, and she was barely 5' tall. I'm not a chubby chaser or whatever you call it. But she is the sexiest woman I've ever been with, bar none, and it has nothing to do with her being chubby or not.

But as she learned when she was 17, men who look like strippers with 6-pack abs, who can get equally stripper-like women, generally don't go for girls like her. And I believe that's what put up that fear of rejection. She over-reached on the type of men she could land, and I think that was an eye-opener for her. Much the same as my height somewhat limits the amount of women I could theoretically date, as well. It's just life. Chippendales dancers probably won't date chubby girls (no matter how hot) and swimsuit models probably won't date shorter guys. There's always exceptions, of course, but one sometimes has to learn the hard way. My wife likely did, and the rejection and possible embarrassment affected her - not being picked on for being fat.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> I can't imagine my wife's reaction if she asked for a back rub, or wanted to cuddle on the sofa watching TV and I said "no, i don't feel like it tonight, I'd rather play WOW".


I think it would be a character builder for her if you did just that from time to time.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> so you're saying it didn't hurt when you were 17? Strange
> 
> Maybe because she was acting as if it didn't hurt?
> it's not that I was crying in a corner in my classroom all the time or i was letting people know that I was hurt..._obviously_...pretending you're not hurt is the thickest wall
> ...


I'm not saying it didn't hurt her or affect her at all. I'm saying it didn't affect her to the point of having zero self-esteem or confidence.

That said, just about everybody has something they've been made fun of for in their life. Nobody really goes unscathed throughout the teen years or younger.




Bugged said:


> I think one single incident cannot make all that difference...but maybe your wife is too sensitive or she was so head over heels with this guy.. i dunno...


I _think_ this was big for her, though. The way I understand it, this guy didn't hurt her, or reject her to her face or anything. I genuinely think she just felt foolish when all was said and done. Like I said, she ended up asking this guy to prom, and he agreed. This after months of chasing him to go out with her unsuccessfully. She shows him off, has a "hot date", she thinks he might have come around to her, and then... nothing. Her and her friends and their dates all had a hotel room that night, and what usually happens on prom night happens, just not to her, with this guy. Maybe he said something to her, I don't know, I didn't pry. I only know what she told me and didn't ask any further.

The way I understand it is that she never chased anybody ever again.

The reason this even came up between us is because well into our marriage, I remarked to her that she never really initiated with me (primarily sex, but in other ways, too. What we'd do, where we'd go, what movie we'd see, etc. was usually left up to me.)

She told me at that point that that's just the way she is. That she'd never really gone after any men, that she wasn't an initiator, that sort of thing.

I brought up the fact that I remembered, clearly, the few months we still went to school together after we had broken up back then, and how she was constantly talking about this guy. And I remembered she went to prom with him. It sure seemed like she was chasing him back then! And that's when she explained the story, downplayed it a little (yes, she was interested in him, but not vice versa), and that they just went to prom as friends. I called her on it a little bit, (because I clearly remembered how she talked about him, and how often) and she admitted eventually that she was after him, but he had no interest in her, etc.

I've never met the guy, but I've seen her prom pictures. Now, my wife is beautiful, and was back then as well. I'm not being biased. But that would have been a visible mis-match.

Her weight's never been an issue to her. She's 5'6, 175lbs, and wears a bikini (and rocks it, imo). Like most women, she doesn't "like" her body, but she complains less about it then my 5'0, 95lb ex wife. And she's always been like that. Yes, she's always been aware that she's chubby, and yes, as a teenager was targeted for it, but she's never let it get to her. It's a real non-issue for her, and it's not the reason for whatever walls she's put up over time, I promise you.

It's incidents like the above that have shaped her personality.

In some cases, it's almost better that somebody outright dismisses you, rather than you coming to your own conclusions, or being made to feel like you're a charity case or something. Maybe this guy was gentlemanly enough to be polite, and maybe he took her to prom just to be nice. I don't imagine he felt like he was leading her on, as he probably thought he had made it clear enough that she was friend-zoned by then. But the reality in situations like that, are that sometimes it's better to say no, you're not my type, this isn't going to happen, etc. rather than let the other person gradually come to the realization that there's no chance. It's entirely possible that it had nothing to do with her weight or size, or anything like that at all. But left to figure it out on her own may have done more damage to her psyche than it should have.

In any case, my wife does not handle rejection of any kind well (yet is quick to reject others, myself included...) and this appears to be the first time she ever felt rejected, at least by a member of the opposite sex. One thing I do know about my wife is that she's one-and-done when it comes to this sort of thing. One bad experience with something, and she avoids repeating it.

I truly believe that this is why she does not do oral sex on its own, either. She definitely used to, at least when we were dating 20+ years ago. I didn't have to ask her back then, she just did it. I have a hard time believing that I was the only person she ever did that for. Sometime between then and now, she said "never again", and I doubt very much it was a casual decision she made, as she's adamant about hating it. I never asked her specifically why, but I did ask why it's okay during sex, but not on it's own. Rather vague answer about how it's part of sex, and she doesn't mind doing it at all as foreplay or as a finale. No real explanation as to why it's a different thing on it's own.

The only explanation I can think of is that she had a negative experience with it, much like how she shut herself down from chasing a guy she likes. It's her prerogative, of course, but it absolutely sucks that other people have negatively affected her way of thinking about things that otherwise are positives for me, and any other man she dated along the way. I hate that mindset, and don't understand it. My ex wife ruined lots of things for me, but only with her. It hasn't kept me from doing them with my wife, simply because I had a bad experience doing it with my ex wife.

If I told my wife I'm never doing this or that with her, because when I did it with my ex wife, it ruined it for me, I think she'd be like "WTF? Are you kidding me?" She's not my ex wife, she's somebody else entirely, and the experience will be completely different. I have a hard time with that.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I think that often times the "I shouldn't have to change" thought process is used to justify and rationalize what essentially boils down to stubborn laziness in the relationship, and as a means to guilt and control the other partner into feeling as if they are being unreasonable and then into accepting the lack of desire to actually do any work.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
The thing is, I want to make her happy. Her happiness makes me happy.





Bugged said:


> well Richard, if it bothers you so much, just play WOW..i can't recall how many hours my partner spent playing Red Dead Redemption instead of paying attention to me..did I bother..nope..also when we were having sex i would seldom orgasm so making a calculation he probably owes me about 250 orgasms...do I bother..nope...>
> The tit for tat is toxic.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> The thing is, I want to make her happy. Her happiness makes me happy.


This ^^^^

And it's very difficult being with someone who does not share this outlook.

When one is like this (as I am), the ideal partner is somebody who is like-minded. This doesn't always happen of course, and sometimes the first few months, or even years, of a relationship IS like this. Then one person reverts to their "norm". Call it bait and switch if you want, or call it losing interest. Either/or. It sucks.

My wife has a best friend who is like this. She is single. I am not attracted to her for varying reasons, and there's no danger I would be attracted to her. But I notice that she has the same personality as I do. She is very thoughtful, often goes out of her way to make my wife (and I) happy with something or other, is always giving little gifts, that sort of thing. She will make a like-minded man very happy someday.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Bugged said:


> @alexm..what if this is all in your head..you can't compare the behaviour of a teenager to that of an adult..maybe she had NO trauma whatsoever regarding stand alone oral sex..she just has a lower drive that's it!
> Maybe you should just trust her answers because you might be making a big thing out of something minimal...:surprise:


You're right. I am known for over-thinking around here... 

But when you cut to the chase, I've known her since she was 14, and have spent a combined 10 years with her. People do change, and do grow up, but I knew enough of her back then and certainly know her very well now, to know that there are reasons she changed her tune about certain things. She has very definitely put up relationship walls over the intervening years (she has admitted as much) - and that's okay. But it's also okay to bring these walls down once you trust someone.

My issue is that whatever happened to make her change her tune on certain things has caused her to not fully trust and/or open up to me - the person she should be able to do so with.

It's a real catch-22, having been with her previously, and knowing her when she didn't have these walls. On the flip side, it's a rather romantic story, being each others first loves and all, and eventually reconnecting and getting married. But it's also a crying shame that certain things were ruined for her by others who did not treat her well.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
there you get into deep psychology and semantics

If you like making someone happy, are you doing it for them or for you?

I would say that if you are doing what someone else really wants, then you are doing it for them. Otherwise you end up defining anyone who likes helping others as selfish and that seems an undesirable definition.



Bugged said:


> So you only do it for her...you don't need it? Because from what i see on this forum... apparently men do an _awful _lot of things ONLY for their wives...
> Also if what you really want is play WOW, I don't see a problem with it...:grin2:
> I once had a Mafia addiction..it lasted a couple of months>...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I forgot to add - yes, PEOPLE do a lot of things for those that they love, sometimes far more than the recipients of those things ever realize. 

Anyone who doesn't feel this way might question whether they have ever experienced love.




Bugged said:


> So you only do it for her...you don't need it? Because from what i see on this forum... apparently men do an _awful _lot of things ONLY for their wives...
> Also if what you really want is play WOW, I don't see a problem with it...:grin2:
> I once had a Mafia addiction..it lasted a couple of months>...


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