# At What Point Do You Consider A Woman "Fat"



## LadyOfTheLake

As per the discussion in the Ladies Lounge. What makes a woman "fat" vs "curvy"? Studies say that men like curves. You guys here say you like the retro look in dresses and skirts, and they all emphasize curves. So where does curvy end and fat begin? It would seem that biologically, as history would show us, men are drawn to larger women. Look at the Venus of Willendorf and other fertility goddesses. Depictions of women down through the centuries have shown the voluptuous to desirable, up until the late nineteenth century when pale and thin became de rigueur. When food became more easily obtained and was more secure, a curvy woman was no longer a symbol of a man's ability to provide for his family. It was rather the sign of a lazy and unkempt woman. Interesting how that works, isn't it?

Anyway, social conditioning aside, most men say they like a girl with some curves. Where do you draw the line? At a number on the scale? On her dress tag? Or is it aesthetics? Just the way she looks in general?


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## Amplexor

When she's out of ear shot!


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## tulsy

LadyOfTheLake said:


> As per the discussion in the Ladies Lounge. What makes a woman "fat" vs "curvy"? Studies say that men like curves. You guys here say you like the retro look in dresses and skirts, and they all emphasize curves. So where does curvy end and fat begin? It would seem that biologically, as history would show us, men are drawn to larger women. Look at the Venus of Willendorf and other fertility goddesses. Depictions of women down through the centuries have shown the voluptuous to desirable, up until the late nineteenth century when pale and thin became de rigueur. When food became more easily obtained and was more secure, a curvy woman was no longer a symbol of a man's ability to provide for his family. It was rather the sign of a lazy and unkempt woman. Interesting how that works, isn't it?
> 
> Anyway, social conditioning aside, most men say they like a girl with some curves. Where do you draw the line? At a number on the scale? On her dress tag? Or is it aesthetics? Just the way she looks in general?


If your skin hangs over your pants-button, you're out of shape. 

When you talk about beauty, you gotta remember that a* fit* frame with nice boobs, hips and butt allows those assets to really stand out. If you accentuate the assets, it looks better.


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## LadyOfTheLake

The Venus of Willendorf....just for some perspective....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_of_Willendorf


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## Mavash.

I'd post the link with pictures but I'm on my iPad. I think you are fat if your percentage of body fat is over 45% for women.


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## LadyOfTheLake

Mavash. said:


> I'd post the link with pictures but I'm on my iPad. I think you are fat if your percentage of body fat is over 45% for women.


Well how is anyone supposed to be able to calculate that?


I myself don't care for percentages and BMI's and charts and what not. I think some "fat" people are attractive. Like Star Jones, pre surgery. She looks awful now. And the girl in the Ladies Lounge thread. Ya, she is heavy, but she is tall and poised enough to carry it well. Looking at cold hard facts, she is clinically obese. But I think she is pretty. And there are plenty of healthy weight women that just look like they need 10 or 15 lbs. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder I guess. Or maybe I just am *really* relaxed about this stuff, LOL


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## Joey Joe Joe Jr. Shabadoo

LadyOfTheLake said:


> As per the discussion in the Ladies Lounge. What makes a woman "fat" vs "curvy"? Studies say that men like curves. You guys here say you like the retro look in dresses and skirts, and they all emphasize curves. So where does curvy end and fat begin? It would seem that biologically, as history would show us, men are drawn to larger women. Look at the Venus of Willendorf and other fertility goddesses. Depictions of women down through the centuries have shown the voluptuous to desirable, up until the late nineteenth century when pale and thin became de rigueur. When food became more easily obtained and was more secure, a curvy woman was no longer a symbol of a man's ability to provide for his family. It was rather the sign of a lazy and unkempt woman. Interesting how that works, isn't it?
> 
> Anyway, social conditioning aside, most men say they like a girl with some curves. Where do you draw the line? At a number on the scale? On her dress tag? Or is it aesthetics? Just the way she looks in general?


For me, it's definitely about the overall aesthetics as you say, or her proportions. If she's fairly curvy but fit and looks good, then she's just fine. It's a balance thing. The golden mean/hourglass concept definitely applies.

The other thing to know is women's ideal weight for themselves is much, much, much skinnier than most men's ideal weight for a woman. Maybe that was discussed in the other thread you mentioned but just in case I thought I'd bring it up.


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## Latigo

Pre weight loss my wife was not unlike Venus up there. Not as stacked though. I didn't mind because her skin was (is still) soft and smooth. For me it is where the weight is located. I don't mind a belly (I prefer it actually), or a big rear end (I prefer that too), but when a woman has no definable chin or calves it's kind of a turn-off.


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## joe kidd

When a trip up six stairs makes her breathe heavily .


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## nunikit

joe kidd said:


> When a trip up six stairs makes her breathe heavily .


Then that makes me fat also....:scratchhead::lol:


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## Maricha75

joe kidd said:


> When a trip up six stairs makes her breathe heavily .


Hmmm... I don't get winded going up six stairs, but I certainly do have difficulties with walking (bad hip)....so I'm ok! :smthumbup:


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## Maricha75

Latigo said:


> Pre weight loss my wife was not unlike Venus up there. Not as stacked though. I didn't mind because her skin was (is still) soft and smooth. For me it is where the weight is located. I don't mind a belly (I prefer it actually), or a big rear end (I prefer that too), but when a woman has no definable chin or calves it's kind of a turn-off.


Hey! Even with a body similar to Venus, I still have a chin and calves! Always have.


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## joe kidd

Maricha75 said:


> Hmmm... I don't get winded going up six stairs, but I certainly do have difficulties with walking (bad hip)....so I'm ok! :smthumbup:


You know what I mean. I know some carry their weight better than others. I like a little something on my woman, but I can't do slovenly. Does that make sense?


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## diwali123

Definitely depends on the man, his culture and the situation. As a fat woman who was previously thin I have noticed that a lot of men are attracted to bigger women and will have casual flings with them but don't want anyone to know. So it's not just a desire issue, it's an arm candy issue and whether he is concerned with what other people think.
Luckily I never fell for anyone who only wanted a fling. But then I chose people who were too young or too old to be relationship material. 
How do we know that the Venus of willendorf was a sex object? That's what I don't get. She has no head. It's just weird. 

We aren't in danger of dying out and men don't consider the amount of children they have to be the measure of their masculinity anymore. I think deep down a woman about a size 12 or 14 probably seems the most fertile and able to carry and nurse a baby through a famine and still be healthy. We don't have to worry that stuff so now being in shape and working on yourself is more important. it's more of a status symbol because you have to have the time and money to work out and afford good food.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ravioli

It depends on the body type. There really isn't a weight requirement but there are certainly unattractive body types. A woman can be 200 pounds but if she is shapely then there will be men that will flock to her.

Curves are nice but they need to be in the right places. A big gut in my book is a no-no. You can be a skinny to medium looking female and if your gut sticks out more than your butt, or your gut is flabby and hanging over the kitty kat then its a definite no go.

A lot of men do secretly like a big girl, but a big girl has to be clean, proportioned right, pretty and smells good. But in today's age a big woman is not considered a prize. There is no real challenge, and there is little effort for a man to scoop up an out of shape woman.


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## diwali123

It seems like too many men are concerned with getting the woman who is good arm candy and then come to TAM complaint that she is a dud in bed. 
Culture is a huge part of this too. Non white men tend to be more into larger women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

joe kidd said:


> When a trip up six stairs makes her breathe heavily .


I can't even walk a couple hundred feet without a wheelchair. How depressing.

I have a hard time with stairs too.


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## ravioli

diwali123 said:


> It seems like too many men are concerned with getting the woman who is good arm candy and then come to TAM complaint that she is a dud in bed.
> Culture is a huge part of this too. Non white men tend to be more into larger women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Non white men = Black guys

But the non white women are better proportioned for a bigger size and carry weight better. But asians like skinnier women as well. Many African Americans are just too out of shape. Africans that are indigenous to Africa are usually thinner, eat better and are in much better shape. Even the ones that come to America have better diets and are in much better health. Pork scraps, neck bones, and chitlins are not foods that should be in an everyday diet.


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## diwali123

Hispanic men like bigger women too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe

every case is different. I can't give you a specific BMI or body fat percentage or pant size. I can tell you that curvy vs. fat probably has more to do with the waist/hip and waist/bust ratio than any absolute weight or weight/height numbers. A .7 waist/hip is just about perfect curvy. Anything higher than .9 is not really curvy at any weight.


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## joe kidd

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I can't even walk a couple hundred feet without a wheelchair. How depressing.
> 
> I have a hard time with stairs too.


You have an injury right? I might have worded my response wrong.


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## Lyris

Curves need to be concave as well as convex. 

I've never read anything that suggested the Venus of Willerndorf was connected to sexual attraction. Fertility, yes, protection, abundance, wealth, but not a physical ideal.


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## WEBELONG2GETHER

diwali123 said:


> It seems like too many men are concerned with getting the woman who is good arm candy and then come to TAM complaint that she is a dud in bed.
> Culture is a huge part of this too. *Non white men tend to be more into larger women.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


I beg to differ on that. I am a beautiful, and i mean beautiful plus sized black woman. I cannot get the white men to leave me alone. i get more attention from white men than you would believe. I was so bad at one point I asked the white man. "i thought you guys did not like black women.? It said that is a lie and I believe him.

I get no attention from the non white men, but the white ones will not leave me alone. :scratchhead:


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## WEBELONG2GETHER

diwali123 said:


> It seems like too many men are concerned with getting the woman who is good arm candy and then come to TAM complaint that she is a dud in bed.
> 
> Or come here complaining that she has had an affair and she is sooooo hooot and sooo sexy and the men just love her. :lol:


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## coffee4me

WEBELONG2GETHER said:


> diwali123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like too many men are concerned with getting the woman who is good arm candy and then come to TAM complaint that she is a dud in bed.
> 
> Or come here complaining that she has had an affair and she is sooooo hooot and sooo sexy and the men just love her. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> This would suggest that a woman who is good arm candy isn't a good woman.
> 
> It is possible to be good arm candy and a good woman
Click to expand...


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## gbrad

diwali123 said:


> It seems like too many men are concerned with getting the woman who is good arm candy and then come to TAM complaint that she is a dud in bed.
> Culture is a huge part of this too. Non white men tend to be more into larger women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't see anything wrong with the combination of good arm candy and not so great in bed.


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## FalconKing

diwali123 said:


> It seems like too many men are concerned with getting the woman who is good arm candy and then come to TAM complaint that she is a dud in bed.
> Culture is a huge part of this too. *Non white men tend to be more into larger women.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't add me to that list.


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## Maricha75

joe kidd said:


> You have an injury right? I might have worded my response wrong.


I get what you're saying, Joe. Just picking on ya. 

Basically, a bit of meat (or even fat) is ok for you, as long as it's not to the point that everything is rolling all over the place and because of her WEIGHT, not any injury or other extenuating circumstances, she can't walk more than a few feet without catching her breath. AND if she was unwilling to even TRY to work on it for her own health.


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## Starstarfish

Just to point out - you can be thin and still be in ridiculously poor shape (like having issues breathing) because of other poor habits like smoking.


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## MrsOldNews

*Re: Re: At What Point Do You Consider A Woman "Fat"*



Starstarfish said:


> Just to point out - you can be thin and still be in ridiculously poor shape (like having issues breathing) because of other poor habits like smoking.


I had a friend like this In highschool. Gorgeous, very thin beautiful proportionate body. But on a very short bike ride she would be dying in short order. Not a smoker either. My friend calls people like her "Skinny fat"


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## Shaggy

When their walk shifts into a waddle they've definitely crossed the line.

When their size prevents them from participating in common activities that require movement such as sitting on the floor together, skating, tieing their shoes, getting on or off a ride at Disney.

Now most of the above describes obeses women not simply fat, but I live in the US where we have way too many obese men, women, and children.

I would say a person is fat if their size prevents them from dressing the way they want, or if their size is very disproportionate to the people they are around. What I mean by that, is a guy with a small belly might not be considered fat if he works with large guys, but if he works with guys who don't have guts then he is the fat one.

Definitely if you have the rolling fat that undulates when you walk or move your arms, then you might be fat.

You might be fat if the ship lists when you step onboard. (Especially if its an aircraft carrier)

You might be fat when your family van has to make a separate trip with just you up a steep hill.

You might be fat if you leave a seat impression behind when you sit on a concrete floor.

You might be fat if you've ever put an all you can eat restaurant out of business.

And lastly...

You might be fat if you call Rosanne Bar a skinny chick.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Shaggy said:


> When their walk shifts into a waddle they've definitely crossed the line.


This is so depressing. This is the way I walk.

I "look" normal, but I get harassed because I park in the handicapped parking spaces.

I wish people didn't judge others. This is why we have such low self esteem.


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## Shaggy

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> This is so depressing. This is the way I walk.
> 
> I "look" normal, but I get harassed because I park in the handicapped parking spaces.
> 
> I wish people didn't judge others. This is why we have such low self esteem.


Look, this is not judging the person you are. Don't ever confuse who you are as a person with how you are physically. I won't either.

I don't know your situation. Are you heavy or is there something else going on?

Done people are short, some are tall. You aren't judging them by bring honest with how their are built. Now when you discriminate because of that, then you cross the line.

I have good large friends and I have good small friends. They are all friends.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Shaggy said:


> Look, this is not judging the person you are. Don't ever confuse who you are as a person with how you are physically. I won't either.
> 
> I don't know your situation. Are you heavy or is there something else going on?
> 
> Done people are short, some are tall. You aren't judging them by bring honest with how their are built. Now when you discriminate because of that, then you cross the line.
> 
> I have good large friends and I have good small friends. They are all friends.


It's very stressful to always be judged no matter what the reasoning. I'm saying this in general people. It's hard to recognize how one feels unless you walk a mile or two in their shoes.

I personally constantly being judged. It's very taxing and stressful to say the least. I thank God everyday I have the support of my husband. Without the support of my husband and two younger children, I would of taken my life a few years ago.

We all have feelings and our insecurities. It's too bad most people don't see each other as equals. I am not overweight, but I do have other issues.


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## diwali123

I do think a woman can look good and be good in bed. It just seems like a lot of men focus too much on how she looks and don't take into account her emotional intelligence or whether she is really devoted to him for the right reasons. Is she just there for his money? Women do this even in middle class situations if they know they won't have to work. 

Maybe the question should be, at what point is a woman too overweight to date? Because clearly some men see a woman who immight be fat but they are still attracted to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Starstarfish

I'll agree with IILWMH, some of those specifications are kind of subjective, and are problems that can affect people for various reasons. 



> I would say a person is fat if their size prevents them from dressing the way they want.


I'll prevent turning this thread into a major moan fest about women's clothing, but - shopping for clothes can be an issue whether or not you are "fat." If for no other reason than women's clothing sizes are totally subjective compared to men's sizes. Rather than having set sizes like neck size or arm length or inseam like men's sizes do, each manufacturer decides on their own standard. The only piece of women's clothing that is pretty standard from one brand to another is shoes. 

Me, I've got weird proportions. I'm 5'7". If my husband (who is six feet tall) and I stand hip to hip, our legs are the same length, but I basically have no torso. Which makes buying jeans a total nightmare. Women's pants that go with a 33" rather than 32" inseam on an "Average" length tend to come from more expensive stores like Coldwater Creek or Talbots. 

This is an issue I'll have no matter how much I weigh. As no matter how toned I get - my torso isn't going to magically get any longer, and my legs aren't getting any shorter. (God, at least not for another 30 years I hope.) 

And - who can determine besides you how difficult it is to find clothes? Or whether you enjoy your clothing? Even thin chicks with a bunch of clothes will moan they "have nothing to wear." And even being thin and in shape doesn't mean you have A - fashionable taste or B - the sense to wear things that look good on you.


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## Maricha75

Shaggy said:


> When their walk shifts into a waddle they've definitely crossed the line.
> 
> When their size prevents them from participating in common activities that require movement such as sitting on the floor together, skating, tieing their shoes, getting on or off a ride at Disney.
> 
> Now most of the above describes obeses women not simply fat, but I live in the US where we have way too many obese men, women, and children.
> 
> I would say a person is fat if their size prevents them from dressing the way they want, or if their size is very disproportionate to the people they are around.


I am obese. I've posted the pics that prove it. I have been obese all of my adult life. At one point in my life, I was classified as super morbidly obese. Not sure where exactly I fall NOW, but I know it is on the "obese" side, for sure. 

1. When I was super morbidly obese, I waddled. I am still obese, but no waddling here.

2. Activities you mentioned: I was able to go on the rides at Disney, I have NEVER been able to skate...even when I was skinny (as a kid), I've always been able to tie my shoes... EXCEPT when the doctor put me on hip precautions after my hip surgery and after my c-sections...ok, MAYBE during my pregnancies there were times I couldn't tie them because of the baby belly, I can sit on the floor just fine, and I get up on my own as well.

3. My size doesn't prevent me from dressing the way I want. Even if I were smaller, I'd be buying the same STYLES I buy now... just smaller sizes.

I get what you're saying, believe me. Just saying that those particular criteria don't always apply...some fat people can do them easily. 

And some skinny people can't...as MrsOldNews pointed out.


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## that_girl

A person is "fat" when you aren't attracted to them because of their weight...no?

It's all subjective.


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## Maricha75

that_girl said:


> A person is "fat" when you aren't attracted to them because of their weight...no?
> 
> *It's all subjective.*


Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner! See when I was down to 250 pounds, do you know what I saw in the mirror? I saw that nearly 500 pound woman. Do you knwo what my HUSBAND saw? Keep in mind, this is comparative... he saw 200 pounds. I wasn't that small... but the point is, he didn't see the 500 pound woman I saw. And the thing that really boggles my mind? He still WANTED sex with me at that size...


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## joe kidd

Maricha75 said:


> Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner! See when I was down to 250 pounds, do you know what I saw in the mirror? I saw that nearly 500 pound woman. Do you knwo what my HUSBAND saw? Keep in mind, this is comparative... he saw 200 pounds. I wasn't that small... but the point is, he didn't see the 500 pound woman I saw. And the thing that really boggles my mind? He still WANTED sex with me at that size...


It is indeed subjective. There are a couple of guys at work..... one is 6'2 260. He can't even climb into a van without grunting breathing heavily and grasping at his back. There other is 5'10 295. He looks like the one to be doing that but has no problem doing any of the work required. Go figure.


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## that_girl

I used to be attracted to my husband...he's not a big guy at all...but now he just looks so scrawny to me  Random.

My friend is a bigger person. She's beautiful. Maybe people would say she's fat. I don't.

I see myself as fat, but have been told I look great.

Fatness/beauty/whatever is all in the eye of the beholder.


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## diwali123

You men have really surprised me. I thought there were going to be a lot of answers like "once she's above a size 12"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richie33

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> It's very stressful to always be judged no matter what the reasoning. I'm saying this in general people. It's hard to recognize how one feels unless you walk a mile or two in their shoes.
> 
> I personally constantly being judged. It's very taxing and stressful to say the least. I thank God everyday I have the support of my husband. Without the support of my husband and two younger children, I would of taken my life a few years ago.
> 
> We all have feelings and our insecurities. It's too bad most people don't see each other as equals. I am not overweight, but I do have other issues.


Your post really bothered me. I am sorry you have to feel / deal with this in your life. Growing up I was skinny as a rail. Heard the joking, the teasing, used to bother me. Most of my family is overweight then and now. My oldest sister is the heaviest. She used to be the worst one with the comments. So sometimes people can be ugliest on the inside. 
A woman who is confident, no matter what size is very attractive to me.


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## Shaggy

In TX I would be consider skinny, in CA I could stand to loose some weight. 

It's all relative to the people around you.

When I could no longer wear my favorite sportcoat or leather jacket because I had put on weight. It was time to change for me. Like I said, when I couldn't dress the way I wanted to, I considered myself fat.


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## that_girl

There could be 3 women who all weigh 200 pounds...one is round, one is hourglass and one is proportionate. They will ALL look different. It's not really the weight but where it's held.

Big booties/breasts seem to be sexy to many men...but not big guts. 

This is just what I've noticed.


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## gbrad

diwali123 said:


> You men have really surprised me. I thought there were going to be a lot of answers like "once she's above a size 12"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being a size 12 or a little bit over can still look good, but it all depends on the woman.


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## that_girl

I'm a size 12. Could be smaller, but I'm well proportioned.


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## Holland

A while back I was reading threads here and some women were saying they were a size 4 which really shocked me until finding out that the US sizes are different to Aussie sizes. We don't have size 4 here.

US size 4 = Aus size 8

I am an Aus size 10 or 12 in some brands. So about a US size 6.
My partner prefers women with a curvy shape and a bit of weight which is exactly how I look, got the boobs, smaller waist and curvy hips. I really could lose some off my thighs though.
Fortunately he likes my size and shape, he really dislikes the look of skinny women, and skinny is something I am not interested in being. Curvy looks good in or out of clothes.


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## LadyOfTheLake

that_girl said:


> I'm a size 12. Could be smaller, but I'm well proportioned.


I've been everything from an 8 to a 20. Right now I am a 10, hoping to get back to an 8. Thankfully, I've always been blessed with an hourglass figure. I've always carried weight in my boobs and bum. I like the way I look now and could be happy staying at this size but would prefer to tone the middle a bit more. Kids are hell on your belly.


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## that_girl

I have no waistline. haha I'm very boyish when thin. I don't mind, it suits me. But I always wanted a waistline. Oh well.

When I gain weight, I gain all over...so that's nice. 

When my friend gains, it's in her butt and thighs and boobs. Her arms, face and waist stay small. 

I hate her :rofl:


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## that_girl

Kids are total hell on your body.

I added up the stretchmarks measurements (I seriously did this) and I have 4 extra inches of skin (loose btw) on my belly. without this crap, I'd look thinner. I can tone all I want, but that extra skin is there for good. Lame. Men don't "get that"....mentally or physically.


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## LadyOfTheLake

that_girl said:


> Kids are total hell on your body.
> 
> I added up the stretchmarks measurements (I seriously did this) and I have 4 extra inches of skin (loose btw) on my belly. without this crap, I'd look thinner. I can tone all I want, but that extra skin is there for good. Lame. Men don't "get that"....mentally or physically.


Exactly. I had preeclampsia with my first and swelled up to an epic size before my induced labour. All the stretching left me with loose belly skin that no amount of time in the gym will get rid of. I will always have that "pooch" below my navel. It's not going anywhere


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## that_girl

I had Pre-E with my second.

Horrible swelling.

But I think that being 9 years OLDER the second time around was harder on my body (duh). Skin wasn't as forgiving.

But whatever. No one I've been with has EVER complained about my body. I can rock it no matter what size I am  Stretchmarks? Psh. Those are battle scars. I won that war though  Got a cute little girl out of it.


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## Wiserforit

It's surprisingly irrelevant to me. 

Other women - irrelevant, obviously. A size 2 or 222, what's the difference. What matters is whether they are nice people. Our closest friend is 340 lbs. 

My wife - 82 lbs when we met. 112 at her max after two kids. 96 now. It doesn't matter to me. What matters is whether she has the athletic ability. We're big on the sprint-to-the-finish ethic. We're both on diets and accellerating the exercise because I am finally recovering from a bad injury. Training together is a big connection for us.

Her self-esteem was a problem when she was heavier but I couldn't care less about the weight per se.


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## diwali123

When she was heavier at 112? Is she like 4'8"?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit

diwali123 said:


> When she was heavier at 112? Is she like 4'8"?


5'0"

Small but mighty.


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## FalconKing

that_girl said:


> A person is "fat" when you aren't attracted to them because of their weight...no?
> 
> It's all subjective.


Thread should have ended with this.


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## Gaia

LadyOfTheLake said:


> I've been everything from an 8 to a 20. Right now I am a 10, hoping to get back to an 8. Thankfully, I've always been blessed with an hourglass figure. I've always carried weight in my boobs and bum. I like the way I look now and could be happy staying at this size but would prefer to tone the middle a bit more. Kids are hell on your belly.


I have an hourglass figure as well. Two of my sisters are tall and have the legs thing going for them.. lmao. I'm shorter... sadly enough.. then most of the females in my family. Most of them have the legs and long hair. I'm stuck at 5'1.


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## Jakobi Greenleaf

My wife and I are within ten pounds of each other. She is 5'3 and I am 5'11. Having said that, I am totally in lust with her.


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## FalconKing

Gaia said:


> I have an hourglass figure as well. Two of my sisters are tall and have the legs thing going for them.. lmao. I'm shorter... sadly enough.. then most of the females in my family. Most of them have the legs and long hair. I'm stuck at 5'1.


you are that little?? I'm really surprised:rofl::rofl:. I would've guess 5'5 or so!


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## Gaia

lmao


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## Lyris

Gaia said:


> I have an hourglass figure as well. Two of my sisters are tall and have the legs thing going for them.. lmao. I'm shorter... sadly enough.. then most of the females in my family. Most of them have the legs and long hair. I'm stuck at 5'1.


Aww. Gaia's tiny! A pocket Venus.


----------



## FalconKing

Lyris said:


> Aww. Gaia's tiny! A pocket Venus.


I know right?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

My super athletic husband is 6'1" and 147 pounds. He's far from fat.

Standing next to him I feel very fat. I was 5'10", but I've shrunk to 5'8" in the last 5 years. I am slowly getting shorter too. I'm not giving out my weight to anyone other then the doctor office. When I married my husband I weighed 118 pounds at 5'10". I was underweight and very happy with it. Now I'm a normal weight and unhappy. I am trying to get my BMI around 19 or under, but it will never happen, especially now that I'm getting old.


----------



## Mavash.

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> My super athletic husband is 6'1" and 147 pounds. He's far from fat.
> 
> Standing next to him I feel very fat. I was 5'10", but I've shrunk to 5'8" in the last 5 years. I am slowly getting shorter too. I'm not giving out my weight to anyone other then the doctor office. When I married my husband I weighed 118 pounds at 5'10". I was underweight and very happy with it. Now I'm a normal weight and unhappy. I am trying to get my BMI around 19 or under, but it will never happen, especially now that I'm getting old.


Why is age a factor? I'm almost 47 and I've gotten my bmi down to 19. At the moment it's about 23 because I'm up a few pounds but I will have it off by swim suit time.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

My wife's bmi is 21.5 right now. It's about perfect. A little low if anything. I wouldn't want her any smaller. She's lost most of her butt.


----------



## Mavash.

WorkingOnMe said:


> My wife's bmi is 21.5 right now. It's about perfect. A little low if anything. I wouldn't want her any smaller. She's lost most of her butt.


True. My husband said he thought I lost too much weight. I wanted to go hard core with the bmi and prove that I could. I thought he wanted me super skinny because that's what I was when he married me. Now I'm not so sure.


----------



## ATC529R

when the owner of the chinese buffet starts screaming "YOU GO NOW, NO FOOD FO YOU!"


----------



## ATC529R

too me the weight just has to be in proportion. have hips, booty and jugs. I've always been a boob man and short of a few freaks of nature ...girls who are stacked usually have some extra meat on them. now, a hug butt, no hips and no boobs....i.e. a blob. no thank you!


----------



## Vorlon

Hi..I have always preferred athletic women. I have also been an athlete all my life. I not only respect a women who is fit, I find muscle tone sexy on a women. I personally find professional female bodybuilders too be way over the top. So it's not just a muscle fetish.  

I find a women who has a flat stomach, tight bum and firm shoulders/arms very attractive. Bust is nice but not my main focus and prefer smaller and firm to larger. So larger women do not do it for me. 

So where is the line for fat. The difference really would be how many inches you pinch and where you can pinch it. Does she carry it well or does she look sloppy. I do not like sloppy. Sloppy equates to lazy in my mind. Firm and fit put together exudes confidence, capability, energy and a love of life. IMHO anyway. 

I'm 51 and workout 6 days a week. I am not perfect and carry more fat than I like so its not like I don't know what it is like to have to be disciplined all the time about food. Its probably why I admire really fit women. I recognize and appreciate the work involved and really like the way it looks. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Goldmember357

If you can pinch an inch or more than technically you are fat. Most people in the U.S. are overweight about 70% of the adult population is, so it always blows my mind when overweight men demand a thin woman when they themselves are not in shape. As far as body types go, I judge in person I don't go off BMI as BMI has been proven to be inaccurate and BMI helps contribute to the problem of unhealthiness. For example BMI will regularly tell someone who is overweight that they are "average" however a body composition would show the true results. BMI does not factor in frame, muscle along with many other variables. Though while an Inch or more can be pinched indicating "extra fat deposits" I generally do not consider the person fat until a fat is noticeable when one is sitting, you can tell by looking at a persons stomach when sitting. 

Best way is to compare everyone to someone who is lean, and in shape. The human body is very capable of achieving beauty.

Body compositions are best, have the % of fat measured along with bone muscle etc. Body fat calipers are good to.


----------



## Goldmember357

LadyOfTheLake said:


> The Venus of Willendorf....just for some perspective....
> 
> 
> Venus of Willendorf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Different times and could not possibly be viewed as ideal physical beauty. Represented other things



Mavash. said:


> I'd post the link with pictures but I'm on my iPad. I think you are fat if your percentage of body fat is over 45% for women.


Not true, body compositions are best



Lyris said:


> Curves need to be concave as well as convex.
> 
> I've never read anything that suggested the Venus of Willerndorf was connected to sexual attraction. Fertility, yes, protection, abundance, wealth, but not a physical ideal.


:iagree:



Starstarfish said:


> Just to point out - you can be thin and still be in ridiculously poor shape (like having issues breathing) because of other poor habits like smoking.


Exactly


----------



## LadyOfTheLake

The Venus of Willendorf is a prime example of what the primitive people of that time and place thought a goddess embodying the elements of femaleness would look like. Many times, especially in the absence of readily available food, cultures will endow their theoretical "perfect woman" (as seen in depictions) with lush curves. But even in more modern times, Rembrandt, Titan, Reuben, etc, all liked to paint full figured women. This would indicate that societies at those times found that type of body sexually attractive. 

There are cultures today that deem obesity sexy. Young girls are force fed to gain weight and become fleshy and "suitable" as brides. Sadly, this again is a status symbol, not unlike the super thin in our culture. 
Beauty in Mauritania - A different perspective


----------



## humanbecoming

I think a woman is "too fat" when there are obvious rolls in places there shouldn't be, belly, back of neck, arms, etc.

Women who are totally fine in figure, but don't fit our society "ideal" of being stick thin need to learn to re think themselves. I had no problems with attraction to my wife when she was up to a size 16, and I have no problem with her at an 8 now. What sucks is a woman who turns the lights off and runs for the covers instead of being seductive and teasing her man because of her insecurities.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Mavash. said:


> Why is age a factor? I'm almost 47 and I've gotten my bmi down to 19. At the moment it's about 23 because I'm up a few pounds but I will have it off by swim suit time.


I'm 40 years old and move like an 80 year old.

I need a wheelchair when going places that require long distance walking. I wasn't this way 10 years ago.

Maybe I'm feeling sorry for myself and I need to knock it off. I've had a really rough couple if weeks where the pain is unbearable again. I just can't get away from it. I wish there was a better way, and I wish I had a better attitude about it.

I'm still holding onto hope though.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

I love "extra" on a woman. But there are women who go beyond extra.

For me, the easiest way to differentiate is with the hips.

If they aren't the widest part of your body, or there's no difference in hips versus waist...you're fat. (This obviously doesn't count women who are VERY skinny, with NO hips..for them....GO EAT A SANDWICH). Otherwise....you're perfect!


----------



## Machiavelli

LadyOfTheLake said:


> The Venus of Willendorf....just for some perspective....
> 
> 
> Venus of Willendorf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Are you pregnant? If so, that's a good look. this is a fertility goddess. Fertility. Get it?


----------



## Machiavelli

diwali123 said:


> Definitely depends on the man, his culture and the situation.


Across all nations and cultures, there is a universally appealing female figure (The Golden Ratio) which states that if the hips are 1X, the waist needs to be .7X. The Bell Curve is at play here, so that waist ratio trends toward .6 in East Asia (less hip) and .8 in Africa (more hip), but you can't go wrong with a 0.7.

Aside from that, a good rule of thumb is a body fat % no greater than 30%. You don't want your gut folding over under the navel, and you don't want your gut arriving someplace ahead of your rack.


----------



## arbitrator

*Now, I'd really have to consider this as "fat!"*


----------



## Enginerd

I consider a women officially fat when she rationalizes that the average American women is a size 14 and therefore thinks she's normal. 

Corn syrup is killing the world.........


----------



## Davelli0331

I think it depends on the person's frame. You can look at someone and kind of tell if he or she is carrying more weight than his/her skeletal structure is intended to carry.

E.g., if a person holds his/her arms at his/her sides, and the upper arms are being pushed out due to excess fat in the upper arm area, that's a sign that to me looks like that person has more fat than they should be carrying.

Similar concept with your thighs. If they touch before your knees, or if you can't touch your knees together, *and it's due to excess fat, not monster quads*, then that looks to me like you're carrying excess fat.

Take a woman whose thighs touch and push out due to excess fat, widen out her hips and pelvis to where they don't touch, then you have a woman who "wears her weight well".

And don't confuse "skinny" with "in shape". I know lots of skinny people who couldn't run a mile if they were running for their lives.


----------



## that_girl

My super thin friend has thighs that touch all the way from crotch to knee...so your theory there doesn't work for everyone.

Body frames are different. Thighs touching doesn't mean someone is fat.


----------



## that_girl

And since when did "Skinny" even mean healthy at all? Skinny means malnourished and deprived of food. Starving people get skinny. I don't want to ever be skinny. I'd like to be lean and tone and slender. But Skinny? ew.


----------



## Davelli0331

that_girl said:


> My super thin friend has thighs that touch all the way from crotch to knee...so your theory there doesn't work for everyone.
> 
> Body frames are different. Thighs touching doesn't mean someone is fat.


That's why I said "I think it depends on the person's frame" and followed that with "if you can't touch your knees together, *and it's due to excess fat*".

If your thighs touch and it's simply due to how you're built, or because you have monster quads due to squatting a lot of weight, or any other reason besides body fat, then obviously that isn't overweight. That was the point of my entire post.


----------



## Davelli0331

that_girl said:


> And since when did "Skinny" even mean healthy at all? Skinny means malnourished and deprived of food. Starving people get skinny. I don't want to ever be skinny. I'd like to be lean and tone and slender. But Skinny? ew.


I was commenting on some of the other posts in the thread where people were talking about being skinny but they couldn't climb a short flight of stairs or walk a short distance without becoming out of breath.


----------



## that_girl

Ah, I see. 

I like women with a small waist and a nice, curvy bottom half. Extra weight on the thighs and ass are not a bad thing


----------



## that_girl

Davelli0331 said:


> I was commenting on some of the other posts in the thread where people were talking about being skinny but they couldn't climb a short flight of stairs or walk a short distance without becoming out of breath.


Totally not even talking to you when I wrote that comment. People just say the word "skinny" as if it's a compliment these days. Ew.


----------



## Davelli0331

that_girl said:


> Ah, I see.
> 
> I like women with a small waist and a nice, curvy bottom half. Extra weight on the thighs and ass are not a bad thing


I agree, so long as the extra weight isn't excessive and isn't all fat.



that_girl said:


> Totally not even talking to you when I wrote that comment. People just say the word "skinny" as if it's a compliment these days. Ew.


A chick with the body of a 14 year old underfed skinny boy is just as gross and un-feminine as a chick that weighs 400 pounds.


----------



## 2ntnuf

If she thinks she is fat, there is a problem I need to look at. It could be that she is overweight and needs to lose a few pounds. More than likely she is feeling bad because I have not made enough effort to let her know how much she means to me, how sexy I think she is, or how much I appreciate her. Once she knows this, she will want to look good and will be much less volatile and do more for herself with less worry.


----------



## Gaia

I think the dress size also depends on the womans height and frame. Maybe a size 14 might very well be average if she is taller?


----------



## Mavash.

Gaia said:


> I think the dress size also depends on the womans height and frame. Maybe a size 14 might very well be average if she is taller?


Yes. Height, frame size, all factor in this.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> Across all nations and cultures, there is a universally appealing female figure (The Golden Ratio) which states that if the hips are 1X, the waist needs to be .7X. The Bell Curve is at play here, so that waist ratio trends toward .6 in East Asia (less hip) and .8 in Africa (more hip), but you can't go wrong with a 0.7.
> 
> Aside from that, a good rule of thumb is a body fat % no greater than 30%. You don't want your gut folding over under the navel, and you don't want your gut arriving someplace ahead of your rack.


Your math is backwards. Having very thin hips will up your ratio, not lower it. A thin slip of a woman with a 22" waist and 25" hips will have a hip-waist ratio of .88. Conversely, the true hourglass with a 29" waist and 43" hips will have a ratio of .67.


----------



## Holland

Enginerd said:


> I consider a women officially fat when she rationalizes that the average American women is a size 14 and therefore thinks she's normal.
> 
> Corn syrup is killing the world.........


Is this true, the average is a size US14? That is an AUS18 here and would be consider very obese.


----------



## Davelli0331

Holland said:


> Is this true, the average is a size US14? That is an AUS18 here and would be consider very obese.


I don't know if that's true about the average size, but I do know 'Merricans are generally overweight.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Ugh, I feel so fat lately. It's time to go back on my strict diet. 

I've been biking, but not enough to make a difference to lose weight.


----------



## Ostera

My wife is 'curvy' she is probably 40-50 lbs over weight by medical standards.. she has awesome hips, thighs and breasts.. 

I love every inch of her. Seh is very soft and I love to cuddle with her.


----------



## joe kidd

Pidge thinks she is fat. I told her ( I'm a blunt ass) if she was I would most certainly let her know. I know full well that having my children made sure she wouldn't have her 19 yr old body ever again. I personally like the 42 yr old body she is sporting better.


----------



## Wiserforit

Davelli0331 said:


> And don't confuse "skinny" with "in shape". I know lots of skinny people who couldn't run a mile if they were running for their lives.


God yes. Their body fat index can be surprisingly high even if they look "skinny" too.


----------



## Adex

LadyOfTheLake said:


> As per the discussion in the Ladies Lounge. What makes a woman "fat" vs "curvy"? Studies say that men like curves. You guys here say you like the retro look in dresses and skirts, and they all emphasize curves. So where does curvy end and fat begin? It would seem that biologically, as history would show us, men are drawn to larger women. Look at the Venus of Willendorf and other fertility goddesses. Depictions of women down through the centuries have shown the voluptuous to desirable, up until the late nineteenth century when pale and thin became de rigueur. When food became more easily obtained and was more secure, a curvy woman was no longer a symbol of a man's ability to provide for his family. It was rather the sign of a lazy and unkempt woman. Interesting how that works, isn't it?
> 
> Anyway, social conditioning aside, most men say they like a girl with some curves. Where do you draw the line? At a number on the scale? On her dress tag? Or is it aesthetics? Just the way she looks in general?


Curvy is fat or chunky to me. Only skinny is hot and beautiful. Having a BMI of 20 or below is excellent. Models that are 5'8" and 110lbs or similar are super hot.


----------



## Gaia

I'm so glad I don't have a man who judges how hot I am based on my weight or BMI. Hell I'm glad he doesn't think I should weight a certain amount at my height or say what my BMI should be. Tits and ass do add curves and if having them means ones fat then I'd be screwed no matter how in shape I was. I've always had big tits and a ghetto booty.


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> Your math is backwards. Having very thin hips will up your ratio, not lower it. A thin slip of a woman with a 22" waist and 25" hips will have a hip-waist ratio of .88. Conversely, the true hourglass with a 29" waist and 43" hips will have a ratio of .67.


Thanks, you're correct.


----------



## Holland

Adex said:


> Curvy is fat or chunky to me. *Only skinny is hot and beautiful.* Having a BMI of 20 or below is excellent. Models that are 5'8" and 110lbs or similar are super hot.


To you and fair enough. Lucky we are all different, my partner is turned off by skinny he thinks it looks awful. His ideal is Nigella and I have to say she is one sexy woman.


----------



## that_girl

Wiserforit said:


> God yes. Their body fat index can be surprisingly high even if they look "skinny" too.


It's called skinny fat


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Mmm ghetto booty.


----------



## that_girl

Ooooh ghetto booties rock 

Skinny makes me think someone is ill. 

Small waist, big breasts, ghetto booty...yes yes.


----------



## larry.gray

that_girl said:


> It's called skinny fat


Yeah, I was shocked by one of my daughter's friends. Little tiny thing, probably 100 lbs.

Recently I saw her at the pool, and couldn't believe it. It's exactly as you describe, a tiny, thin fat girl.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

My wife was 165lbs when I married her. She had some extra weight but I found that attractive ... maybe it's the mommy potential thing. I still found her attractive at 200lbs. She now weight at least 330lbs and I suspect more. I think that is gross ... no other way to put it. Her chin has a great big chin that has baby chins. The very few times we have sex, she carries a lot of her weight in her belly and it is so large that missionary is not possible. She has to be positioned on the edge of the bed with me holding her legs. I have to lift and hold her belly up to give her oral. She has this cottage cheese look going on under her arms. Let's just say seeing her naked is a complete turnoff. Yuck. THAT is too fat and I am attracted to women with extra weight.


----------



## Gaia

Uhhh maybe suggest a diet and some exercise like walking each day?


----------



## Davelli0331

that_girl said:


> Ooooh ghetto booties rock
> 
> Skinny makes me think someone is ill.
> 
> Small waist, big breasts, ghetto booty...yes yes.


This is the traditional curvy body type, and I tend to find it hotter than the current trend towards ultra-skinny.

Take that body type, give it just a touch of muscle tone, and I look like the cat-calling wolf from the Droopy cartoons.

However, if you have the big boobs and round booty of the curvy body type, but your waist is as big or bigger and it's due to excess fat (not frame or build), then that's no longer curvy, that's just overweight IMO.


----------



## sinnister

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> My wife was 165lbs when I married her. She had some extra weight but I found that attractive ... maybe it's the mommy potential thing. I still found her attractive at 200lbs. She now weight at least 330lbs and I suspect more. I think that is gross ... no other way to put it. Her chin has a great big chin that has baby chins. The very few times we have sex, she carries a lot of her weight in her belly and it is so large that missionary is not possible. She has to be positioned on the edge of the bed with me holding her legs. I have to lift and hold her belly up to give her oral. She has this cottage cheese look going on under her arms. Let's just say seeing her naked is a complete turnoff. Yuck. THAT is too fat and I am attracted to women with extra weight.


Damn. If you're that disgusted with the sight of your own wife. It's time for a serious chat about change or leaving.


----------



## Terry_CO

LadyOfTheLake said:


> As per the discussion in the Ladies Lounge. What makes a woman "fat" vs "curvy"?


Put her in corduroy slacks, have her walk briskly for 1 mile. If she sets fire to her own thighs, she is too fat :rofl:

That's such a subjective question. Every man has his own idea of what is and isn't an acceptable weight/body condition. As a society we have stated "MEN LIKE THE CONCENTRATION CAMP LOOK", but in reality, we are quite satisfied with curves ....just as long as it's everything in moderation. Too much of anything is bad, as with anything.

I think most guys find a broad range of body types to be sexy, as long as the woman is comfortable, self-confident in her self, and just basically "pulls it off".

I've seen larger-sized women who are extremely sexy and desirable, and at the same time thin and toned women who just turn me off because they are either too egotistical, or uncomfortable with themselves, or are just too damned skinny. I don't want to be with a woman who is built like a ten-year-old boy.

It's all between the ears. A woman who is sure of herself is ALWAYS sexier than one who isn't. She sends out vibes that say "Are you ready for THIS??" That's a sexy woman, IMO :smthumbup:


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Machiavelli said:


> Across all nations and cultures, there is a universally appealing female figure (The Golden Ratio) which states that if the hips are 1X, the waist needs to be .7X. The Bell Curve is at play here, so that waist ratio trends toward .6 in East Asia (less hip) and .8 in Africa (more hip), but you can't go wrong with a 0.7.
> 
> Aside from that, a good rule of thumb is a body fat % no greater than 30%. You don't want your gut folding over under the navel, and you don't want your gut arriving someplace ahead of your rack.


Case in point: google pole vaulter Allison Stokke, who I consider the hottest female athlete on the planet. 34-25-36. .69444


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Terry_CO said:


> Put her in corduroy slacks, have her walk briskly for 1 mile. If she sets fire to her own thighs, she is too fat :rofl:
> 
> That's such a subjective question. Every man has his own idea of what is and isn't an acceptable weight/body condition. As a society we have stated "MEN LIKE THE CONCENTRATION CAMP LOOK", but in reality, we are quite satisfied with curves ....just as long as it's everything in moderation. Too much of anything is bad, as with anything.
> 
> I think most guys find a broad range of body types to be sexy, as long as the woman is comfortable, self-confident in her self, and just basically "pulls it off".
> 
> I've seen larger-sized women who are extremely sexy and desirable, and at the same time thin and toned women who just turn me off because they are either too egotistical, or uncomfortable with themselves, or are just too damned skinny. I don't want to be with a woman who is built like a ten-year-old boy.
> 
> It's all between the ears. A woman who is sure of herself is ALWAYS sexier than one who isn't. She sends out vibes that say "Are you ready for THIS??" That's a sexy woman, IMO :smthumbup:


I went from running 6 miles a day 6 days a week to walking only a couple hundred feet without using a wheelchair.

Sometimes life just sucks. BTW, I'm not overweight by any means.


----------



## anonim

ravioli said:


> Non white men = Black guys
> 
> Many African Americans are just too out of shape. Africans that are indigenous to Africa are usually thinner, eat better and are in much better shape. Even the ones that come to America have better diets and are in much better health. Pork scraps, neck bones, and chitlins are not foods that should be in an everyday diet.


Generalize/stereotype much?

What you posted applies to pretty much all of americans.


----------



## FalconKing

anonim said:


> Generalize/stereotype much?
> 
> What you posted applies to pretty much all of americans.


True. I don't see how fast food is much better than chitlins and neckbones.


----------



## Gaia

anonim said:


> Generalize/stereotype much?
> 
> What you posted applies to pretty much all of americans.


Ok I didn't see that man/woman/persons post but I have to agree. Since when the hell does being non white equate to being black? I know many african americans with better diets then "white" people. I sure as hell am not white... nor am I black!

Alot of "white" folks where I live eat things like neckbones, gizzards, ect in a thing called gumbo. Totally not my cup of tea but apparently it's a norm over here. 


Besides I've seen far more "fat and out of shape" white people then black or any other race. Mcdonalds isn't your friend.....


----------



## anonim

WorkingOnMe said:


> She's lost most of her butt.


I feel sad for you


----------



## Starstarfish

You can get fat on oatmeal. A lot of granola or healthy type cereals have a shocking amount of calories if you pay attention. 

While various foods may be better or worse for you in terms of nutritional value (IE vitamins and minerals)- even if you eat really "healthy" but eat more calories than you need, you'll still get fat.

Which is why you can have fat vegans or thin chittlin eaters, it's all about portions and frequency.


----------



## Davelli0331

Starstarfish said:


> You can get fat on oatmeal. A lot of granola or healthy type cereals have a shocking amount of calories if you pay attention.
> 
> While various foods may be better or worse for you in terms of nutritional value (IE vitamins and minerals)- even if you eat really "healthy" but eat more calories than you need, you'll still get fat.
> 
> Which is why you can have fat vegans or thin chittlin eaters, it's all about portions and frequency.


So much this. Check out the caloric content on protein bars, power bars, and the like. Some of those things contain so many calories that I don't eat the whole thing even when I'm working out like a mad man.


----------



## Dr. Rockstar

For me, the primary difference between "curvy" vs. "fat" is attitude.

I had a friend in college who was clearly obese, but people didn't really notice it because she carried herself well and took pride in her appearance. Compare that to the slobs you see in Wal-Mart and McDonald's (sorry for the stereotyping): stained sweatpants and t-shirt, unkempt hair, generally sloppy and unhappy looking.

Having said that, the physical aspect of the difference is all about the amount of belly fat; if a woman's belly extends past her boobs, she's unattractive to me. Objectively, my wife is shaped like a pear, but she carries all of it on her hips and butt, and I think she's gorgeous.


----------



## Wiserforit

Starstarfish said:


> You can get fat on oatmeal.


Exactly so. The politically correct meme is to blame food instead of the person eating it.


----------



## Machiavelli

WorkingOnMe said:


> Case in point: google pole vaulter Allison Stokke, who I consider the hottest female athlete on the planet. 34-25-36. .69444


Yes. Very Nice.


----------



## Machiavelli

Wiserforit said:


> Exactly so. The politically correct meme is to *blame food* instead of the person eating it.


I'm probably not too PC, but there is much truth in those two bolded words. When people began to greatly increase the carb and reduce the meat portions of their diet in Europe around the turn of the 19th century, French physicians commented on the phenomenon and wondered if it was significant. Now we know. The best book on how high carbs provoke lipoprotein lipase and to help us pack on the pounds is "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. The same author also has "Why We Get Fat and What to Do About It" for the general public. The most likely alternative view is that modern foods overrun the reward system in the brain (dopamine) just like affair-sex does.

High carb foods, especially those that are simultaneously high fat, are the culprits in the second hypothesis. Either way, cut the carbs and you're just fine, since fat alone does not spike insulin.


----------



## ravioli

anonim said:


> Generalize/stereotype much?
> 
> What you posted applies to pretty much all of americans.


Not really stereotyping as such as telling the truth. African Americans are the number one risk for diabetes and high blood pressure. A lot of it is due to poor eating habits, general lack of education and finances.

Yes what I posted applies to all Americans, but I was responding to the post that said non white men like bigger women. But I was informing that poster that, Food choices that are made in the African American Community, are the undoing of a lot of unhealthy lifestyles in the community and is not the same as the Ancestors that predated Africans when they were planked across the oceans.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

sinnister said:


> Damn. If you're that disgusted with the sight of your own wife. It's time for a serious chat about change or leaving.


Ha! What can I say? I have all but given up. I can't figure out a way to find that attractive in my mind, I can't figure out a way to make her want to lose weight and I'm really hesitant to breakup my family with my two daughters just because I'm no longer attracted to her. She is LD so she doesn't initiate anyway. Despite being in great shape myself, I am all but resigned to living the rest of my life in a sexless marriage ... or at least until my daughters get out of college ... when I will be about 60 years old and then I might as well forget it. I'll keep on working on it but I have almost zero hope that it will change.


----------



## Holland

Davelli0331 said:


> This is the traditional curvy body type, and I tend to find it hotter than the current trend towards ultra-skinny.
> 
> Take that body type, give it just a touch of muscle tone, and I look like the cat-calling wolf from the Droopy cartoons.
> 
> *However, if you have the big boobs and round booty of the curvy body type, but your waist is as big or bigger and it's due to excess fat (not frame or build), then that's no longer curvy, that's just overweight IMO*.


That's a great way of putting it. Doesn't matter so much the actual weight but the shape or lack of that makes the difference.
I've got the boobs, butt and hips but a smaller waist. SO goes crazy when I wear things that go in at the waist because that really shows the shape.


----------



## Davelli0331

Holland said:


> That's a great way of putting it. Doesn't matter so much the actual weight but the shape or lack of that makes the difference.
> I've got the boobs, butt and hips but a smaller waist. SO goes crazy when I wear things that go in at the waist because that really shows the shape.


Exactly. That's one reason why we say women of different actual weights "wear their weight well". A woman may be 10-20 pounds overweight, but if she still has the right figure and the excess weight doesn't cause some weird funhouse mirror effects, she's still considered curvy and attractive (at least IMO).


----------



## Wiserforit

Machiavelli said:


> people began to...


Fallacy of drawing the false conclusion. 

The food is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for being fat. The person's behavior is both necessary and sufficient. As a student of logic, I refuse to submit to illogical propositions. 

I spent a couple of decades making weight, immersed in exercise and food science the entire time and then guiding others through the same thing. It wasn't just about weight or body fat but optimum performance in competition. A big steak after weigh-in is what you hope your opponent is stupid enough to eat. And a beer. :smthumbup:

In knowing that science so well, it changed nothing about who was responsible for making weight and loading right for the event.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Gaia said:


> Uhhh maybe suggest a diet and some exercise like walking each day?


Of course! Wish I had thought of that


----------



## sinnister

I guess I fit the "stereotype". I'm a brova and that pole vaulting lady is gorgeous. But not enough fat on her for me.

LOL I know. Flame away.


----------



## Machiavelli

Wiserforit said:


> Fallacy of drawing the false conclusion.
> 
> The food is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for being fat. The person's behavior is both necessary and sufficient. As a student of logic, I refuse to submit to illogical propositions.
> 
> I spent a couple of decades making weight, immersed in exercise and food science the entire time and then guiding others through the same thing. It wasn't just about weight or body fat but optimum performance in competition. A big steak after weigh-in is what you hope your opponent is stupid enough to eat. And a beer. :smthumbup:
> 
> In knowing that science so well, it changed nothing about who was responsible for making weight and loading right for the event.


The human body is not a steam engine; i.e.: calories in, calories out. It's an extremely complicated, dynamic organism, regardless of what your "logic" or your personal experience may indicate to you. All human traits and behaviors fall along a bell curve and not just in the elite or pseudo-elite athlete range; otherwise, we'd all be elite athletes, wouldn't we.

You need to sign up for a refresher in Logic.


----------



## Conrad

Machiavelli said:


> Yes. Very Nice.


I've always found "proportion" to be very attractive.


----------



## Machiavelli

sinnister said:


> I guess I fit the "stereotype". I'm a brova and that pole vaulting lady is gorgeous. But not enough fat on her for me.
> 
> LOL I know. Flame away.


Here are some golden ratio proportions with a little more fat:


----------



## Ostera

Machiavelli said:


> Here are some golden ratio proportions with a little more fat:


I am a fan of hips like those


----------



## FalconKing

ravioli said:


> Not really stereotyping as such as telling the truth. African Americans are the number one risk for diabetes and high blood pressure. A lot of it is due to poor eating habits,* general lack of education* and finances.
> 
> Yes what I posted applies to all Americans, but I was responding to the post that said non white men like bigger women. But I was informing that poster that, Food choices that are made in the African American Community, are the undoing of a lot of unhealthy lifestyles in the community and is not the same as the Ancestors that predated Africans when they were planked across the oceans.


There are a lot of things that lead to this. Blacks didn't just decide to eat that sh!t. It started during the days of slavery when they weren't allowed to eat the good parts of livestock because they were given to whites and slave owners. So a lot of the foods choices have developed out of desperation and have now become prideful heritage. Also, remember slavery was prominent in the south. So in the north and west, many african americans don't eat that stuff. It's misplaced stubbornness and pride. Also an indifference because most people in america are overweight anyway. Not because black people are not that smart. 

But why don't you save us. Just go to a predominantly black community and tell them how you feel about their intelligence


----------



## anonim

FalconKing said:


> There are a lot of things that lead to this. Blacks didn't just decided to eat that sh!t. It started during the days of slavery when they weren't allowed to eat the good parts of livestock because they were given to whites and slave owners. So a lot of the foods choices have developed out of desperation and have now become prideful heritage. Also, remember slavery was prominent in the south. So in the north and west, many african americans don't eat that stuff. It's misplaced stubbornness and pride. Also an indifference because most people in america or overweight anyway. Not because black people are not that smart.
> 
> But why don't you save us. Just go to a predominantly black community and tell them how you feel about their intelligence


Nailed it.



ravioli said:


> Not really stereotyping as such as telling the truth. African Americans are the number one risk for diabetes and high blood pressure. A lot of it is due to poor eating habits, general lack of education and finances.
> 
> Yes what I posted applies to all Americans, but I was responding to the post that said non white men like bigger women. But I was informing that poster that, Food choices that are made in the African American Community, are the undoing of a lot of unhealthy lifestyles in the community and is not the same as the Ancestors that predated Africans when they were planked across the oceans.


Truth requires proof. Citation needed.
Your opinion, however strongly you feel about it, does not does not become truth by virtue of being your opinion.

Once again what you say about african americans generally applies to americans on the whole, except the part about diabetes; (*type 2 Diabetes* occurs more often in Hispanic/Latino Americans, African-Americans, Native Americans, Asian-Americans, Pacific Islanders, and Alaska natives.)

;and the part about blood pressure (The rate of high blood pressure for African-Americans in the U.S. ranks among the highest in the world, according to the American Heart Association. More than 36% of African-American men have high blood pressure, compared to 25.2% for white men and 24.2% for Hispanic men.)

(http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/prevention/checkup-america/nonmodifiables.html#Race)

(http://www.atlantamedcenter.com/en-... race got to do with high blood pressure.aspx)

Note that was for type 2 diabetes only. Note the citations.

Your posts are not informative or educational, and sound like a stormfront soundbite.

Edit; heres another link for you, this one will blow your mind when you find out who created chitlins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitterlings


----------



## that_girl

:rofl:

Most "traditional" foods are left overs of something else of the animal.


----------



## JustPuzzled

Holland said:


> That's a great way of putting it. Doesn't matter so much the actual weight but the shape or lack of that makes the difference.
> I've got the boobs, butt and hips but a smaller waist. SO goes crazy when I wear things that go in at the waist because that really shows the shape.


Yep. It's a waist-hip ratio thing. The same ratio is appealing across many cultures. I wish that I could trot out the study that I read about this.

Ratios aside, fit people are attractive. A person who can go on a 10 mile hike with some elevation is attractive. Doesn't matter what they weigh.

NOTE: I am not excluding people who cannot do hikes, etc. I'm just saying that fit is nice.


----------



## Lyris

Machiavelli said:


> Here are some golden ratio proportions with a little more fat:


She's wearing a boned corset though. Most people could achieve the "golden ratio" with one of those. 

Before my pregnancies, my measurements were 36-25-38. They're currently 36-28-39.5. My arse needs to be kept under strict control or it takes over. My waist is thicker now due to loss of muscle strength, not extra fat. My goal is to get that waist measurement back to 26, don't think 25 is feasible anymore. 

Maybe I should just get a corset.


----------



## that_girl

I will never have a waist like that. I'm built like a boy. When I'm at my most toned and fittest, I still have no waistline.


----------



## Holland

Yep SL is sexy as hell but let's be realistic here, that's not a standard waistline unless corsets are involved.

She is smokin hot though, well was then.


----------



## anonim

Holland said:


> Yep SL is sexy as hell but let's be realistic here, that's not a standard waistline unless corsets are involved.
> 
> She is smokin hot though, well was then.


i think she looks nasty honestly.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

anonim said:


> i think she looks nasty honestly.


Ha! What is wrong with you? Need to get your glasses checked.


----------



## Gaia

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Of course! Wish I had thought of that


I'm sure you have but the key is ... how did you suggest it?


----------



## JustPuzzled

Ms. Loren, as fetching as she is, is not representing the ratio. The corset looks a bit extreme (but hot, just sayin'...).

I have seen mentions elsewhere that Jennifer Anniston represents the "ideal" ratio.


----------



## anonim

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ha! What is wrong with you? Need to get your glasses checked.


Nothing's wrong with me or my tastes, to each, their own.

And my glasses are fine ty. What about yours?


----------



## Gaia

This is what I consider curvy... I'm guessing some see this as fat?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Gaia said:


> I'm sure you have but the key is ... how did you suggest it?


I've tried a myriad of different ways to approach it from a health perspective. I absolutely have tried to keep it positive and encouraging.

Turn of events. I just found my wife's secret dating site account with some interesting information. We literally finished talking about it and our sex life about 30 minutes ago. Now I don't consider it a normal infidelity confrontation because she opened it immediately after we separated a few years ago (we had separated due to a lot of problems unrelated to her weight ... and then reconciled). I first had found a secret email account that led me to it. This woman who I have never in 22 years caught in a lie, lied to me about it. She didn't come completely clean but the reality is under the circumstances it isn't a surprise. I knew something was wrong a long time ago when we first had sex towards the end of our separation. Let's just say she immediately did things she had never done before. Big Red Flag. She also had locked down her phone and accounts after being so transparent for years. Another Big Red Flag. She denied anything sexual had happened. I don't believe her and have some evidence that suggests that she had but isn't conclusive. I do believe her that she stopped "checking things out" after we ended the separation. Activity stopped on both accounts ... oh, and the secret Facebook account with my daughters birthdate but my wife's birth year ... right at the time our separation ended. She also said it wasn't about sex ... which I believe ... but she clearly intended to get what she wanted through sex. Her email was clearly named to say that is what she wanted and her tag line on the site said "let's keep it simple" ... hmmmm. She also said she was divorced ... and we hadn't even started MC at this point.

So anyway, what bothers me is that we had gone without sex for 3.5 years prior to our separation. This person who is LD and had rejected me for years but had grown so large that I stopped wanting sex with her. Yet, the second we separate she starts trolling for men. Meanwhile I have invested so much of myself over the years trying to fix this problem. I understand it but it still p!sses me off. Some of the things she said on the dating site absolutely changes my perception of her. It also p!sses me off that she clearly tried to portray herself as attractive as possible and yet she hasn't spent one second trying to be attractive to me.

Anyway, so we did talk about our sex life. I did talk about her weight from a health perspective and then I opened up about how it affects my attraction to her. I told her that prior to this (discovery) I had all but accepted that our marriage might remain sexless but I was going to stop beating myself up over it because there are things I simply don't have control over. I had promised myself I was going to keep on working on it but there are some things I can't work on ... namely her weight and her libido. I did tell her that there are things that I have to work on myself but at least do something about your weight for your own health. Do it for the kids if you don't want to do it for us. I told her I loved her and that I can't imagine divorcing somebody with so many good qualities that I love about her (I went into depth about that) but this is killing me and our marriage and only you can do something about it. Obviously, this was not an infidelity confrontation or it would have gone down very differently. I talked about how the constant rejection beat me down over the years but then when her weight kept going up it reached a point where I no longer wanted to initiate. I kept it civil and tried not to beat her down with the attraction thing. Finally I said this little discovery changes things; if you don't work on these things we talked about then we are done (I have no doubt she knows I'm serious about that). I was surprisingly calm and matter of fact about it. Obviously, I'm not relaying it verbatim, we talked in great detail, but that is about the gist of it. 

So .... that cat is out of the bag now.


----------



## Gaia

Oh geeze.... I'm so sorry to hear about that justsomeguy. All that energy she focused on those lame dating sites need to be put toward you. Her weight is definitely her issue and I hope she pulls her head out of her rear and starts thinking of you and the kids.. not just herself. Has she made any steps into losing weight or not yet?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Gaia said:


> Oh geeze.... I'm so sorry to hear about that justsomeguy. All that energy she focused on those lame dating sites need to be put toward you. Her weight is definitely her issue and I hope she pulls her head out of her rear and starts thinking of you and the kids.. not just herself. Has she made any steps into losing weight or not yet?


She has never done anything based on our prior discussions. Her health isn't motivating enough for her I guess.

We just had THIS conversation tonight. I just drilled down enough to get this information tonight after she went to bed. I thought about it for awhile, went upstairs turned on the light and shut the door (sleeping children). Obviously the big thing was the infidelity but it is the first time we've discussed how her weight affects my attraction towards her. We'll see what happens.


----------



## Gaia

I hope things improve for you. :/ I hope she is remorseful about the infidelity. Both are pretty screwed up. I'm not sure if you have a thread or not but would love to see an update if you feel like sharing.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Gaia said:


> I hope things improve for you. :/ I hope she is remorseful about the infidelity. Both are pretty screwed up. I'm not sure if you have a thread or not but would love to see an update if you feel like sharing.


Thanks Gaia. I need to think about starting a thread.  A lot to think about right now.

I just remembered something she said to me after we had sex towards the end of our separation. She said "so you want to be friends with benefits?" Ok, you have to know my wife to know that is so completely out of character for her to say something like that ... or even want something like that ... or even know that term. She is this otherwise fundamentalist christian who won't even listen to regular radio stations because the songs are too suggestive, lol. She wanted to stop celebrating christmas because "jesus wasn't actually born on december 25th" I even said something to that affect ... that I was completely surprised something like that would come out of her mouth. Wonder how many other "aha" moments I'm going to have.


----------



## Holland

OMG really after all the internal torture you have put yourself through to stand by her. I am really sorry to hear this JSGW, really sorry.


----------



## Lyris

Wow. How did you find the dating site stuff?


----------



## Gaia

Well there is a freak in just about every woman. Things that may seem out of character for someone possibly aren't. Perhaps your wife does indeed desire to get a bit down and dirty. So long as it's with you there is nothing wrong with that. Make sure neither of you feel you have to hide part of yourselves from the other. 

I wouldn't be suprised if she were into some bondage, a bit of publice sex, or even adding toys into the mix. I think she just tries to hard to be good instead of being herself which would be why she changes radio stations and such.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Lyris said:


> Wow. How did you find the dating site stuff?


I had left my computer at the office one night a couple of weeks ago and logged into her computer at home. I wanted to check my email. I went to type in my userid on that site and the dropdown had a different email userid than what she normally uses. It was a very suggestive name but it was clearly hers because it was an adaptation from her normal email name. I didn't have the password so I went through the change password routine. It asked me a few questions. One I didn't know and had to play around with different ideas before it would lock me out for x hours and then I would try it again. I got the right answer tonight. The emails were clearly for one purpose but there was nothing I could pin on her ... except all the dating site emails. She had clearly deleted emails up to a point out of her inbox, sent and trash. I checked one dating site that I could get into ... the others seemed like spam that didn't hit the spam box. It was tied to this secret email account so I had the reset password sent to it. From there I was able to find the secret Facebook account. I read everything and was able to put a timeline together. I scoured her cookies, history and temp directories and knew nothing recent had happened. Based on what I had I knew I wasn't going to be able to force her to admit to it but I also knew that it had stopped and I wasn't going to get any more evidence. So I confronted.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Holland said:


> OMG really after all the internal torture you have put yourself through to stand by her. I am really sorry to hear this JSGW, really sorry.


Yeah ... just yeah. I feel ... exhausted. Probably why I was able to just have that conversation so matter of factly ... that kind of surprised me.


----------



## Gaia

Wow... I know how frustrating it is to have little evidence though.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Gaia said:


> Well there is a freak in just about every woman. Things that may seem out of character for someone possibly aren't. Perhaps your wife does indeed desire to get a bit down and dirty. So long as it's with you there is nothing wrong with that. Make sure neither of you feel you have to hide part of yourselves from the other.
> 
> I wouldn't be suprised if she were into some bondage, a bit of publice sex, or even adding toys into the mix. I think she just tries to hard to be good instead of being herself which would be why she changes radio stations and such.


I don't even know what to think. I am the one who has wanted all that. I LOVE public sex and am more than happy to include toys. She knows that. Heck, on our honeymoon we stopped at this amazing glacier lake in New Zealand, climbed a hill overlooking the lake, took off all our clothes and had sex right on top of the hill out in the open. That is the kind of stuff I like. What the hell?


----------



## Gaia

I would like to say i hope things are better tomorrow.. well today rather but I doubt they will be with the added stress your going to have about the confrontation. Just hang in there Justsomeguy.


----------



## Holland

OK just adding some light hearted stuff here, ex and I did an outdoor sex trip around NZ years ago. Such a beautiful place for doing it in the great outdoors. Those were the days.

Sending you strength JSGW (sorry for going OT but you know I understand the pain of the sexless marriage)


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Holland said:


> OK just adding some light hearted stuff here, ex and I did an outdoor sex trip around NZ years ago. Such a beautiful place for doing it in the great outdoors. Those were the days.
> 
> Sending you strength JSGW (sorry for going OT but you know I understand the pain of the sexless marriage)


That's ok ... light-hearted is good for the soul. I was just thinking about the time we drove up into a cloud near the top of a mountain on the blue-ridge in North Carolina ... we stopped at an overlook and the cloud was so thick I bent her over in the parking lot. In Dallas, I shelled out bucks to pay for the dented hood of her mother's car. Plenty of other times too ... all early on in our marriage.

The thought process that led me to that was that in every case, it was my idea.

btw, NZ IS amazing. That had to be a great trip.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I hate the word fat. It's mean and disrespectful. Women of all sizes have feelings and some are confident while others are not. I think most people have some sort of insecurities about their body in some way shape or form.

There are not very many people at all who have perfect bodies. If they do, there is a good chance they had work done surgically to shape their body to their desire.

Also, a lot of these men who want these perfect looking women are not perfect looking themselves.

What really matters is how we treat others, not how we look on the outside. I'm pretty sure those who are really overweight know the health risks involved. Their doctors inform them at their physicals. I have friends who are overweight. Just because they are overweight doesn't make them less as a person.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I hate the word fat. It's mean and disrespectful. Women of all sizes have feelings and some are confident while others are not. I think most people have some sort of insecurities about their body in some way shape or form.
> 
> There are not very many people at all who have perfect bodies. If they do, there is a good chance they had work done surgically to shape their body to their desire.
> 
> Also, a lot of these men who want these perfect looking women are not perfect looking themselves.
> 
> What really matters is how we treat others, not how we look on the outside. I'm pretty sure those who are really overweight know the health risks involved. Their doctors inform them at their physicals. I have friends who are overweight. Just because they are overweight doesn't make them less as a person.


Ok, but keep it in context of the article. The CEO of my company is an amazing woman; she is brilliant and giving. She is a better person than most people I know. She is wealthy beyond what most people will attain. She is also very obese. She is all of these things and despite how great she is and how much respect I have for her, I do not want to sleep with her. She isn't curvy or voluptuous, she is obese ("fat"). It is a turn off for me so I am not attracted to her in that way ... but it does not affect her "value" as a person.


----------



## Starstarfish

Like I mentioned earlier in the article, I know my body isn't perfect, and no matter what it won't be, I have a weird leg to torso proportion. Short of Gattaca-type surgery, that's going to be a constant. Other people are otherwise good looking but have a strange feature like Meghan Fox's man hands, no offense, Meghan.

But, there's a difference in realizing that most people are not supermodel hot (there was a thread about this once, how the "average" person is indeed "average" looking) and thinking - well, as long as that's true, I might as well not bother at all. I'm married - so, who cares? 

People who don't like fantasy books and wouldn't enjoy watching the Hobbit are valuable, amazing, and brilliant people as well. Their worth to society isn't somehow less because of this. But - I didn't marry them. For me, this shared connection was of vital importance for the relationship with my husband. Like the recent thread about Game of Thrones, I didn't want someone who would roll their eyes or feel it was childish to discuss you know - the cross references to Judeo-Christian mythology and the Fall of Man in the Middle Earth tale of the Fall of Numenor. 

Which, my attraction to my husband was greatly based on that mutually shared interest. I realize that in that, I'm in the minority, as I fell in love with him before I knew what he looked like, as we met online. So - ours was a love of the mind more than of the body. But that isn't more or less valid than anyone else's reason for attraction. People have different needs. For others who are more "HD" they might have more physical needs in a partner, for me I had more mental requirements.

IMILWMH for you, having a partner who shared your vision for a large family was very important. Does that mean that other men who desired smaller families are less valuable? Well no, of course not. But you wouldn't have married them, as you had your own desires and wants out of the relationship. 

There's a difference between not discriminating against people based on their looks, and not making tasteless comments or jokes, and feeling that everyone should be equally attractive to everyone.


----------



## Machiavelli

Lyris said:


> She's wearing a boned corset though. Most people could achieve the "golden ratio" with one of those.


Fixed (no corset):


----------



## Gaia

I especially like her lips and eyes... Gorgeous...


----------



## Machiavelli

that_girl said:


> I will never have a waist like that. I'm built like a boy. When I'm at my most toned and fittest, I still have no waistline.


My wife is the same way. When she was 45 years old volunteering at the jr high the principal thought she was a student out in the halls, until she turned around.


----------



## Machiavelli

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Ha! What is wrong with you? Need to get your glasses checked.


No question.


----------



## Machiavelli

Gaia said:


> I especially like her lips and eyes... Gorgeous...


Heheh. My wife's face looks completely different, but she's got the eyes and lips. Her mouth isn't quite as wide, though.


----------



## sinnister

I'm not that concerned with the first number in the ration though (even though my wife has cannons).

But SL is inferno hot. Much more my cup of tea.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Starstarfish said:


> Which, my attraction to my husband was greatly based on that mutually shared interest. I realize that in that, I'm in the minority, as I fell in love with him before I knew what he looked like, as we met online. So - ours was a love of the mind more than of the body. But that isn't more or less valid than anyone else's reason for attraction. People have different needs. For others who are more "HD" they might have more physical needs in a partner, for me I had more mental requirements.
> 
> IMILWMH for you, having a partner who shared your vision for a large family was very important. Does that mean that other men who desired smaller families are less valuable? Well no, of course not. But you wouldn't have married them, as you had your own desires and wants out of the relationship.


I also fell very fond of my husband prior to meeting in person. He was in training for the Kona Ironman and it was quite some time before we had free time to officially date. Since then, he's completed 2 more ironmans and is in the beginnings to train for a third. We are a very athletic and healthy family. Or I was until I broke my neck. I was running 36 miles a week. Now I barely can walk and need a wheelchair for long distances, but I still am able to bike. It's very important to me to stay thin and to look the best that I can. I do this for myself and health reasons, not for someone else.

My post above is my opinion and I realize many do not agree with my opinions. I know there are so many people who judge others solely on their looks alone. Calling someone fat is very hurtful. There are many men who get upset that their wives gain weight as they age. I read it here all the time. Maybe I'm being over sensitive to the issue.

I did marry a wonderful man. If I were to gain weight, he would not be upset. He has stood by my side these last 5 years and has been extremely supportive.


----------



## FalconKing

sinnister said:


> I'm not that concerned with the first number in the ration though (even though my wife has cannons).
> 
> But SL is inferno hot. Much more my cup of tea.


Indeed..


----------



## Starstarfish

All that being said (referring to my post page on page 12) - there are obviously understandings people need to have. The connection you have with your spouse needs to be deeper than just on a raw, sexual physical level. You can read threads on TAM about the fallout when people have no shared interests and hobbies. Do you need to enjoy -all- the same activities as your spouse. No, and having individual growth and enjoyment time is important. 

But if the things they enjoy whether that's art museums, football, mountain climbing, or Dungeons and Dragons, if its totally anathema to your being but you think you can accept it because they are hot, I'd think twice about that. 

Also - you should understand that while you may have fantasies about the perfect body type - expecting your spouse to transform into that person is unrealistic. Expecting someone to get something removed or added, sucked, smashed, or cut to fulfill your desires is a bit much. Expecting your average middle class 30-something Mom to look like a knock-out porn actress who has professional hair, makeup, trainers, tanning, not to mention the joy of computer augmentation or airbrushing is a bit much. 

And in the end - you aren't going to wake up Eric Bana tomorrow, I'm not going to wake up Jessica Alba, let's accept that.


----------



## FalconKing

Starstarfish said:


> All that being said (referring to my post page on page 12) - there are obviously understandings people need to have. The connection you have with your spouse needs to be deeper than just on a raw, sexual physical level. You can read threads on TAM about the fallout when people have no shared interests and hobbies. Do you need to enjoy -all- the same activities as your spouse. No, and having individual growth and enjoyment time is important.
> 
> But if the things they enjoy whether that's art museums, football, mountain climbing, or Dungeons and Dragons, if its totally anathema to your being but you think you can accept it because they are hot, I'd think twice about that.
> 
> Also - you should understand that while you may have fantasies about the perfect body type - expecting your spouse to transform into that person is unrealistic. Expecting someone to get something removed or added, sucked, smashed, or cut to fulfill your desires is a bit much. Expecting your average middle class 30-something Mom to look like a knock-out porn actress who has professional hair, makeup, trainers, tanning, not to mention the joy of computer augmentation or airbrushing is a bit much.
> 
> And in the end - you aren't going to wake up Eric Bana tomorrow, I'm not going to wake up Jessica Alba, let's accept that.


I see what you are saying. You can also read out about the fallout of people losing physical attraction to their spouse. Nobody is expected their spouse to look like a fitness model just because they want you to make an effort to stay attractive. And "average" is subjective being that most people in the U.S. are overweight. But if you live in Asia or certain parts of Europe then I guess this doesn't apply. There is a thread now about a woman who is so disgusted with her husband that all she can manage is handjobs with him. But he's a super sweet guy though!


----------



## Machiavelli

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I hate the word fat. It's mean and disrespectful. Women of all sizes have feelings and some are confident while others are not. I think most people have some sort of insecurities about their body in some way shape or form.
> 
> There are not very many people at all who have perfect bodies. If they do, there is a good chance they had work done surgically to shape their body to their desire.
> 
> Also, a lot of these men who want these perfect looking women are not perfect looking themselves.
> 
> What really matters is how we treat others, not how we look on the outside. I'm pretty sure those who are really overweight know the health risks involved. Their doctors inform them at their physicals. I have friends who are overweight. Just because they are overweight doesn't make them less as a person.


Most men are attracted to most women. Nevertheless, the more a woman gets outside of what we are programmed by nature to find sexually appealing, the more difficult it will be for that woman to attract and hold a man. Simple biology.


----------



## Wiserforit

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> What really matters is how we treat others, not how we look on the outside.


Got that right.

I had no idea how much more I would love my wife for the kind of mother she has turned out to be.

I imagine her as a super plump round ball as a mental exercise. It wouldn't change the way I feel about her.


----------



## Machiavelli

Starstarfish said:


> And in the end - you aren't going to wake up Eric Bana tomorrow, I'm not going to wake up Jessica Alba, let's accept that.


Six months to a year. Faster with anabolic steroids.


----------



## Starstarfish

Machiavelli. Roids might or might not have his face though. Or his big puppy "I need a hug" eyes. 

And my thought wasn't and and/or FalconKing - it wasn't you should be attractive to them -or- like their interests. It was just a comment about making sure they are more than just "a hot bod" - as you yourself point, on either end of the extremes, it leads to problems.

The porn star comment was mostly a reference to a conversation on another thread in which posters inferred that if the wife looked more like the porn stars/hot models husbands wouldn't look at porn. I probably should have made that comment there, but it came to mind on this thread. 

Also, maybe it is a trigger for you, IMILWMH, I understand. And I seriously applaud your efforts despite the major change in your lifestyle and your mobility. But - we have to admit there's a difference between gaining some weight as you age - and gaining 100 lbs when age has nothing to do with it. If you have the physical limitations you do and still make efforts - what do we say about people who have no such limitations and just can't be bothered?

If it isn't about time, or age, or money, or a disability - what's the fine line between judging and enabling?


----------



## pidge70

joe kidd said:


> Pidge thinks she is fat. I told her ( I'm a blunt ass) if she was I would most certainly let her know. I know full well that having my children made sure she wouldn't have her 19 yr old body ever again. I personally like the 42 yr old body she is sporting better.


----------



## ravioli

FalconKing said:


> There are a lot of things that lead to this. Blacks didn't just decide to eat that sh!t. It started during the days of slavery when they weren't allowed to eat the good parts of livestock because they were given to whites and slave owners. So a lot of the foods choices have developed out of desperation and have now become prideful heritage. Also, remember slavery was prominent in the south. So in the north and west, many african americans don't eat that stuff. It's misplaced stubbornness and pride. Also an indifference because most people in america are overweight anyway. Not because black people are not that smart.
> 
> But why don't you save us. Just go to a predominantly black community and tell them how you feel about their intelligence


Right. Never said that blacks began eating pork scraps because they thought it taste good. But taking pride of eating pork trash that Massa threw to you because he didn't know what to do with it, has led to a lifestyle of slow destruction. Blacks all over the U.S. still eat this stuff. Although not as prominent in the South. Many blacks in the North are just generational transplants from previous generations that lived in the south. But it's more than just Hog scraps. It's about an overall lifestyle of unhealthy food choices, such as five unsupervised lads walking to the corner store scarfing down hot cheetos and grape soda, with low grade candy. Not eating breakfast, not eating at the dinner table, eating the worst quality meats. etc.

That's why I advocate, choosing the diets that were set before being sardined in ships. As far as going into a black community and telling them about poor food choices and lifestyle choices. I do it all the time. I'm an advocate of having healthy lifestyle choices. I'm comfortable on any Martin Luther.


----------



## ravioli

anonim said:


> Truth requires proof. Citation needed.
> Your opinion, however strongly you feel about it, does not does not become truth by virtue of being your opinion.
> 
> Once again what you say about african americans generally applies to americans on the whole, except the part about diabetes; (*type 2 Diabetes* occurs more often in Hispanic/Latino Americans, African-Americans, Native Americans, Asian-Americans, Pacific Islanders, and Alaska natives.)
> 
> ;and the part about blood pressure (The rate of high blood pressure for African-Americans in the U.S. ranks among the highest in the world, according to the American Heart Association. More than 36% of African-American men have high blood pressure, compared to 25.2% for white men and 24.2% for Hispanic men.)
> 
> (Age, Race, Gender & Family History - American Diabetes Association)
> 
> (What)
> 
> Note that was for type 2 diabetes only. Note the citations.
> 
> Your posts are not informative or educational, and sound like a stormfront soundbite.
> 
> Edit; heres another link for you, this one will blow your mind when you find out who created chitlins.
> 
> Chitterlings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There was no need to provide a citation because what I said was basic common knowledge. Sounds like you are just finding this out. Your sources are links from the first page of a google search. Nothing I said you could refute. I don't visit storm front so I don't know what is said over there. If you are in the know of the happenings of that site, well, that's on you. I can't control what you deem informative or educational. I guess the truth is too harsh for you to bear.

I already knew the facts, so what I said wasn't based on an opinion. Type 2 diabetes is the most common form of diabetes. There was no need to differentiate since Type 2 affects far more people than type 1. Generally when people refer to diabetes they are most likely talking about Type 2. Again basic common knowledge. So let me reiterate, blacks are the number 1 risk for diabetes and high blood pressure. As far as the chitlin link. Lol. It's already been looked up years ago by my peers and I. Nothing that blew my mind.


----------



## FalconKing

ravioli said:


> Right. Never said that blacks began eating pork scraps because they thought it taste good. But taking pride of eating pork trash that Massa threw to you because he didn't know what to do with it, has led to a lifestyle of slow destruction. Blacks all over the U.S. still eat this stuff. Although not as prominent in the South. Many blacks in the North are just generational transplants from previous generations that lived in the south. But it's more than just Hog scraps. It's about an overall lifestyle of unhealthy food choices, such as five unsupervised lads walking to the corner store scarfing down hot cheetos and grape soda, with low grade candy. Not eating breakfast, not eating at the dinner table, eating the worst quality meats. etc.
> 
> That's why I advocate, choosing the diets that were set before being sardined in ships. As far as going into a black community and telling them about poor food choices and lifestyle choices. I do it all the time. I'm an advocate of having healthy lifestyle choices. I'm comfortable on any Martin Luther.


Massa?
Sardined in ships? Your post is clever though. You are using a passionate front to indulge in insulting blacks. Snide remarks, blanket statements, and emphasis that blacks are the most unhealthy in the U.S.

Did you wife cheat on you with a black man or something?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

ravioli said:


> Right. Never said that blacks began eating pork scraps because they thought it taste good. But taking pride of eating pork trash that Massa threw to you because he didn't know what to do with it, has led to a lifestyle of slow destruction. Blacks all over the U.S. still eat this stuff. Although not as prominent in the South. Many blacks in the North are just generational transplants from previous generations that lived in the south. But it's more than just Hog scraps. It's about an overall lifestyle of unhealthy food choices, such as five unsupervised lads walking to the corner store scarfing down hot cheetos and grape soda, with low grade candy. Not eating breakfast, not eating at the dinner table, eating the worst quality meats. etc.
> 
> That's why I advocate, choosing the diets that were set before being sardined in ships. As far as going into a black community and telling them about poor food choices and lifestyle choices. I do it all the time. I'm an advocate of having healthy lifestyle choices. I'm comfortable on any Martin Luther.


I really don't think you do know the facts. You seem really focused on one ethnic group when it's been pointed out time and again that many ethnic groups are guilty of eating trash, lack of exercise, ect. 

What are the reactions of said community members and how do you go about saying these things?


----------



## Davelli0331

ravioli said:


> Right. Never said that blacks began eating pork scraps because they thought it taste good. But taking pride of eating pork trash that Massa threw to you because he didn't know what to do with it, has led to a lifestyle of slow destruction. Blacks all over the U.S. still eat this stuff. Although not as prominent in the South. Many blacks in the North are just generational transplants from previous generations that lived in the south. But it's more than just Hog scraps. It's about an overall lifestyle of unhealthy food choices, such as five unsupervised lads walking to the corner store scarfing down hot cheetos and grape soda, with low grade candy. Not eating breakfast, not eating at the dinner table, eating the worst quality meats. etc.
> 
> That's why I advocate, choosing the diets that were set before being sardined in ships. As far as going into a black community and telling them about poor food choices and lifestyle choices. I do it all the time. I'm an advocate of having healthy lifestyle choices. I'm comfortable on any Martin Luther.


Factual or not, these ideas could probably be stated in a less offensive manner.


----------



## ATC529R

baby got so much back you can see it from the front

Coco, Jessica Simpson, Chrita Hendricks.......etc, etc etc.

I like em built like a brick s&*thouse!


----------



## ATC529R

36-24-36?

only if she 5'3!!


----------



## Lyris

Oh good, he's been banned. Racist d*ck.


----------



## Starstarfish

Uh - I've mentioned this on other weight related threads but - there's a serious problem for lots of people in major inner cities about getting appropriate nutrition regardless of race. There's a term for this - "food desert."

Where there are no major grocery stores within an appropriate distance of public transportation and thus limited or no access to fresh, unprocessed meat and produce beyond the occasional apple, orange, or banana sold at the local bodega. So before people start commenting on how people should eat better, I think the first question should be where are they going to get this better food. 

Because if you live in a nice suburb with large mulitple grocery stores/Supercenters where you can buy anything you can think of (there are who knows 10 within easy driving distance of me) it's hard to imagine what that's like. But unless your inner city hosts farmer's markets and makes them accessible and free to the public (IE in a location accessible from public transportation) then - this is a problem that needs to be addressed. 

So - let's save up some of that ire in the appropriate direction - towards the businessmen and politicians that create this situation for an under-served population.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Starstarfish said:


> Uh - I've mentioned this on other weight related threads but - there's a serious problem for lots of people in major inner cities about getting appropriate nutrition regardless of race. There's a term for this - "food desert."
> 
> Where there are no major grocery stores within an appropriate distance of public transportation and thus limited or no access to fresh, unprocessed meat and produce beyond the occasional apple, orange, or banana sold at the local bodega. So before people start commenting on how people should eat better, I think the first question should be where are they going to get this better food.
> 
> Because if you live in a nice suburb with large mulitple grocery stores/Supercenters where you can buy anything you can think of (there are who knows 10 within easy driving distance of me) it's hard to imagine what that's like. But unless your inner city hosts farmer's markets and makes them accessible and free to the public (IE in a location accessible from public transportation) then - this is a problem that needs to be addressed.
> 
> So - let's save up some of that ire in the appropriate direction - towards the businessmen and politicians that create this situation for an under-served population.


Easy, grow your own food and process your own meat. 

Everything we grow, we re harvest the seeds from the best plants, dry them and store them in the fridge for the following year. This includes spices as well as vegetables and some fruit.

We have a nice flock of chickens which gives us fresh eggs and my husband and I have processed them ourselves for food. Our flock is fed fresh sprouts, grains and organic feed. We have fabulous compost for our gardens from our chickens.

If I had my own mill, I'd grind my own flour. Instead I use whole wheat white and unbleached white along with oat and other flours. We use either honey or brown sugar for sweeteners. 

Our family prefers home cooked foods from scratch using mostly whole wheat white flour vs pre packed foods. We maybe go out to dinner once a year.

Instead of beef we use venison which is caught by my husband during hunting season.

We grow as much as we possibly can ourselves. I love making foods from scratch, including condiments. It's organic and it tastes better. Tomorrow I get my yogurt maker delivered. I'll make my own yogurt, cheese and sour cream.

We do not live in the inner city or the suburbs. We live in the country with a few acres of land. We rarely eat foods that are prepackaged or cooked by other people. However, I do love my cereal which is cornflakes. I love super foods like chia seeds and quinoa. There are many others on TAM who cook fabulous foods from scratch.

One of my goals in life is to be as self sufficient with our food/meals as possible. If I had my own way, I'd live on a farm and grow 100% of our own foods. That is not possible and I'm grateful for what we do have.


----------



## Starstarfish

That all sounds amazing. However, I'm not sure I'd say that was an "easy" solution. Not everyone can afford to have acres of land or live in the country. Not everyone would be qualified/ able to find employment within a reasonable driving distance to make that feasible.

And that's even discounting that people might not want to live that way. For me, going out to eat is part of "date night" type activities with the H. And while different strokes for different folks, wringing a chicken's neck so I could eat dinner would not be romantic to me (I'm assuming that's what "processing them for food" meant.) and would kind of kill the mood.


----------



## Holland

I would like a bit of both of those lifestyles Starstarfish and I'mInLoveWithMyHubby and this is where we will head at some stage.

Me, complete city girl, love eating out and we try to do it at least once per week. Pre kids ex and I would eat out at least twice a week but we lived in the city and could walk everywhere so it was easy.

Mr H is a great mix of city and country, he is a fantastic vege gardener. We both love cooking together and do it most of the time unless he has a late meeting. 

The ideal for us is to have a city and a country property, best of both worlds but this will be when my youngest has finished Secondary school.


----------



## anonim

Machiavelli said:


> No question.


As I said, to each their own.


----------



## anonim

Machiavelli said:


> Most men are attracted to most women. Nevertheless, the more a woman gets outside of *what we are programmed by nature* to find sexually appealing, the more difficult it will be for that woman to attract and hold a man. Simple biology.


Most humans in western society are so outside of 'nature', that we are not able to know whether we are programmed by 'nature' or by society or by media, or by what degree of combination of the three.

When I say 'outside of nature' I mean is that we are taught what is beautiful and what is ugly by our parents, peers, teachers, television. There is no objective standard to what is beautiful or what is ugly, only what someone thinks.

Its strange how different cultures have extremely different standards of beauty and different methods of enhancing that beauty.


----------



## Machiavelli

Starstarfish said:


> So - let's save up some of that ire in the appropriate direction - towards the businessmen and politicians that create this situation for an under-served population.


Businessmen are in business to do business, not get shot.


----------



## Machiavelli

anonim said:


> Most humans in western society are so outside of 'nature', that we are not able to know whether we are programmed by 'nature' or by society or by media, or by what degree of combination of the three.
> 
> When I say 'outside of nature' I mean is that we are taught what is beautiful and what is ugly by our parents, peers, teachers, television. There is no objective standard to what is beautiful or what is ugly, only what someone thinks.
> 
> Its strange how different cultures have extremely different standards of beauty and different methods of enhancing that beauty.


Nope. Sorry, but research tells us that humans across all cultures are looking for symmetry and balance in facial features and narrow waists, relative to hips and shoulders. People who promote obesity acceptance don't like this, but these studies have reached essentially the same conclusions regardless of where they have been conducted. Here's an article for you with 214 footnotes you can do further study on.

Now, there are always going to be weirdos who fall on the edges of the bell curve (you know what that is right?). YMMV, but only slightly, numbers-wise.


----------



## anonim

ravioli said:


> There was no need to provide a citation because


Because you dont have one. Next.



ravioli said:


> what I said was basic common knowledge.


So was the earth being flat. Once. Hence the need for objective, scientific evidence, which you persistently fail to provide,



ravioli said:


> Sounds like you are just finding this out. Your sources are links from the first page of a google search.


Yes, which shows how much effort you didn't make.



ravioli said:


> Nothing I said you could refute.


I dont need to refute what you say, I just called on you to provide proof. You couldn't.



ravioli said:


> I don't visit storm front so I don't know what is said over there. If you are in the know of the happenings of that site, well, that's on you. I can't control what you deem informative or educational. I guess the truth is too harsh for you to bear.


Acquiring truth requires an effort you aren't willing to make, 
So speak not, of which you know not.



ravioli said:


> I already knew the facts, so what I said wasn't based on an opinion. Type 2 diabetes is the most common form of diabetes. There was no need to differentiate since Type 2 affects far more people than type 1. Generally when people refer to diabetes they are most likely talking about Type 2. Again basic common knowledge. So let me reiterate, blacks are the number 1 risk for diabetes and high blood pressure. As far as the chitlin link. Lol. It's already been looked up years ago by my peers and I. Nothing that blew my mind.


Not worth wasting anymore time on this one i think.


----------



## anonim

Machiavelli said:


> Businessmen are in business to do business, not get shot.


well if they are creating such situations, maybe they deserve to be.



Machiavelli said:


> Nope. Sorry, but research tells us that humans across all cultures are looking for symmetry and balance in facial features and narrow waists, relative to hips and shoulders.


So your research can tell you what I like in a woman and whether its correct/incorrect, normal/abnormal? what any particular person likes in a woman? What kind of woman they find attractive? Nope. It can only give you a sense of generalization, or a comparison to what YOU like.



Machiavelli said:


> People who promote obesity acceptance don't like this,


And people who promote western homogeneous ideals of beauty dont like that.



Machiavelli said:


> but these studies have reached essentially the same conclusions regardless of where they have been conducted. Here's an article for you with 214 footnotes you can do further study on.





Machiavelli said:


> Now, there are always going to be weirdos who fall on the edges of the bell curve (you know what that is right?). YMMV, but only slightly, numbers-wise.


Now you are just marginalizing those who dont agree with you (by calling them weirdos). If there wasnt differeing ideals of what is beautiful/attractive, there wouldnt BE a bell curve. Stop being condescending.


----------



## LadyOfTheLake

My own idea of "curvy" is in the following blog....whereas it is most likely that the majority of these women are considered too fat by fashion's standards, I think most of them look pretty darn good. 

Curve Appeal


Too much bigger than this and you are likely heading into "fat" territory, IMO, unless you are lucky enough to have a nice wide frame.


----------



## Machiavelli

anonim said:


> well if they are creating such situations, maybe they deserve to be.


Obviously, they "create the problem" by moving their businesses out of high crime areas and into low crime areas.


----------



## Machiavelli

LadyOfTheLake said:


> *
> Too much bigger than this and you are likely heading into "fat" *territory, IMO, unless you are lucky enough to have a nice wide frame.


Very good observation. Notice none of these girls have folds or multichins, though. That's the probably the tipping point.


----------



## Lyris

That sounds wonderful, I'mInLoveWithMyHubby, but it wouldn't be possible where I live. Not enough room, bad soil, steep slope. You can only keep four chickens, and no roosters. Other domestic livestock is also strictly controlled.

Ordinary people can't get hunting licenses with enough of a kill allowance to feed their families entirely. Same for fishing. Most available animals are native and protected. Others are subject to control through baiting, making them unsafe to eat.

We live here for my husband's work. We couldn't buy land further out if he couldn't commute, and his industry is specialised and not available outside city areas. 

We are lucky. We aren't struggling financially and we can afford the ridiculous surcharge on food in my country arising from lack of grocery competition. We can afford to by organic, high quality food. I don't have to work full time, so I have the time and energy to make things from basic ingredients, I don't rely on packages. I also have the skills and knowledge, which not everyone does. 

I absolutely understand why people buy cheap, easy food that will fill their children up and not be wasted. If you know they'll definitely eat chips, but salad will probably end up in the bin, then on a tight budget, you're going to buy the chips. My kids, even though they have been brought up on good, whole, fresh foods and were both breastfed for more than two years still go through super fussy phases. 

Why people eat the way they do is full of complication, and emotion and way too big to have any easy solution that will work for all, or even most.


----------



## Dollystanford

Having access to fresh produce in no way means that people will choose that. I have three large supermarkets within a 2 mile radius, easy access to non processed food - fresh vegetables, fruit, meat and fish

Just take a look in people's shopping trolleys though - crisps, chocolate, pizza, biscuits, cereals high in sugar, bottles of coke. I used to have that crap in the house because of the ex but since he's gone I won't and don't miss it at all. Add that to a sedentary lifestyle and the population is f*cked

Every lunchtime the kids come out of school and off they go - do you think they buy sushi and pre-packaged salad? No they buy fried chicken and sausage rolls and most can get away with it....for now...


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

anonim said:


> .................
> 
> you are just marginalizing those who dont agree with you (by calling them weirdos). If there wasnt differeing ideals of what is beautiful/attractive, there wouldnt BE a bell curve. Stop being condescending.


*
Thank you!!*:iagree:


----------



## LouAnn Poovy

LadyOfTheLake said:


> My own idea of "curvy" is in the following blog....whereas it is most likely that the majority of these women are considered too fat by fashion's standards, I think most of them look pretty darn good.
> 
> Curve Appeal
> 
> 
> Too much bigger than this and you are likely heading into "fat" territory, IMO, unless you are lucky enough to have a nice wide frame.


*I think those women LOOK like women, not the sticks we see on magazine covers. Thanks for posting that!*
:smthumbup:


----------



## Starstarfish

Yeah, Dollystanford, I know - I see people making the same choices in my grocery store-laden mega 'burb while we are buying no-nitrate chicken sausage, organic fruits and vegetables, and flax milk. 

When free will is involved, there are no guarantees. 

But having choices at least allows a certain percentage of people to make the correct choice.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I consider a woman fat when her back has breasts,her butt has its own butt,and her belly hangs like an apron.
Women who have thighs that touch,arms that wiggle a bit,a round butt that jiggles when she walks and a puffy belly aren't fat from my point of view.


----------



## Happyquest

ScarletBegonias said:


> I consider a woman fat when her back has breasts,her butt has its own butt,and her belly hangs like an apron.
> Women who have thighs that touch,arms that wiggle a bit,a round butt that jiggles when she walks and a puffy belly aren't fat from my point of view.


And when you can no longer walk the aisles at Walmart to buy your junk food and soda and have to use their handicap cart that is over flowing with crap food.


----------



## Almostrecovered

when you start singing, "I don't want her, you can have her, she's too fat for me"


----------



## gbrad

LadyOfTheLake said:


> My own idea of "curvy" is in the following blog....whereas it is most likely that the majority of these women are considered too fat by fashion's standards, I think most of them look pretty darn good.
> 
> Curve Appeal
> 
> 
> Too much bigger than this and you are likely heading into "fat" territory, IMO, unless you are lucky enough to have a nice wide frame.


Not bad, but some of them looked a little too much.


----------



## that_girl

:rofl:

Men. 

I haven't seen many men who are "prime" specimens around where I live...


----------



## Lon

that_girl said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Men.
> 
> I haven't seen many men who are "prime" specimens around where I live...


But there are. It is all perception.


----------



## that_girl

Exactly. That's why I put it in quotes.

I think too, when you get to know someone, they look differently to you. 

I am not thin by any means...but i work on it. Lost 12 pounds since March 1 

But I'm awesome, so whatever :lol:


----------



## Machiavelli

anonim said:


> So your research can tell you what I like in a woman and whether its correct/incorrect, normal/abnormal? what any particular person likes in a woman? What kind of woman they find attractive? Nope. It can only give you a sense of generalization, or a comparison to what YOU like.


Bell curve. It ain't a generalization. It's a plot, in this case of a great many responses. It's about probability and variances and works quite well in social science. Read this and you'll understand how it works.



anonim said:


> And people who promote western homogeneous ideals of beauty dont like that.


Western ideals of beauty? Is this what you mean?










Actually, as we see in the Wikipedia article linked earlier about attraction studies across cultural and geographical concepts of beauty, what is attractive across cultures is remarkably uniform, and "eastern girls" are the winners. Remember, it's in the best interest of a man's genes to find the maximum range of females to be attractive. So, what about these studies of universal attraction? What do they tell us? That _strictly in terms of visual appeal_, men of all races are most highly attracted to East Asian women and women of all races are most highly attracted to African men. Again, I don't care if that doesn't work for you personally (hold the solipsism please) it is a measurable finding. It is no accident that African men reach testosterone max ahead of other males and stay there until about 35, it is also no accident that East Asian women have more estrogen than other women. 




anonim said:


> Now you are just marginalizing those who dont agree with you (by calling them weirdos). If there wasnt differeing ideals of what is beautiful/attractive, there wouldnt BE a bell curve. Stop being condescending.


Again, hold the solipsism, facts are facts whether or not you agree with them or have personal experience of them. Everyone out on the margins of the bell curve are marginalized by definition, that's why they fall out on the margins when you plot positions on the graph. I myself am on the margins in terms of what I find attractive, since I personally don't follow the typical male racial attraction order.

Here's some more western beauty:


----------



## Machiavelli

gbrad said:


> Not bad, but some of them looked a little too much.


The cottage cheese thighs were over the line, for sure, but easily remedied.


----------



## that_girl

LOL Dear god.

Those women were lovely.


----------



## Zatol Ugot?

LadyOfTheLake said:


> My own idea of "curvy" is in the following blog....whereas it is most likely that the majority of these women are considered too fat by fashion's standards, I think most of them look pretty darn good.
> 
> Curve Appeal
> 
> 
> Too much bigger than this and you are likely heading into "fat" territory, IMO, unless you are lucky enough to have a nice wide frame.


:smthumbup: I took a look at the site. These are some very attractive ladies. IMHO, however, they are at the top limit before going into the "too big" category. I agree with some of the other posters. I don't like the "stick" women that you see in most women's magazines. My son and I joke (he's 21) when we say "Somebody get that lady a sammich!"


----------



## anonim

Machiavelli said:


> Bell curve. It ain't a generalization.


I'm quite aware of what a bell curve is, and what it isnt.

The fact that there are differing degrees of what is found attractive, means that there are differing degrees of what is attractive. One will inevitably be the most frequently occurring, which doesn't mean that others are abnormal. Just less frequently occurring.

Don't confuse what is normal with what is common.



Machiavelli said:


> It's a plot, in this case of a great many responses. It's about probability and variances and works quite well in social science. Read this and you'll understand how it works.
> 
> 
> Western ideals of beauty? Is this what you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, as we see in the Wikipedia article linked earlier about attraction studies across cultural and geographical concepts of beauty, what is attractive across cultures is remarkably uniform, and "eastern girls" are the winners. Remember, it's in the best interest of a man's genes to find the maximum range of females to be attractive. So, what about these studies of universal attraction? What do they tell us? That _strictly in terms of visual appeal_, men of all races are most highly attracted to East Asian women and women of all races are most highly attracted to African men. Again, I don't care if that doesn't work for you personally
> 
> *(hold the solipsism please) *


Practice what you preach, since you don't seem to be able to accept that others might find attractive/beautiful that which you do not.



Machiavelli said:


> it is a measurable finding. It is no accident that African men reach testosterone max ahead of other males and stay there until about 35, it is also no accident that East Asian women have more estrogen than other women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, hold the solipsism, facts are facts whether or not you agree with them or have personal experience of them.


True. Including the fact that some people find things beautiful/attractive, for which you find disdain.



Machiavelli said:


> Everyone out on the margins of the bell curve are marginalized by definition, (*Not at all, the only one marginalizing them are you and one random poster.*) that's why they fall out on the margins when you plot positions on the graph. I myself am on the margins in terms of what I find attractive, since I personally don't follow the typical male racial attraction order.
> 
> Here's some more western beauty:


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> Nope. Sorry, but research tells us that humans across all cultures are looking for symmetry and balance in facial features and narrow waists, relative to hips and shoulders.


Hmmm. Why, then, do they practice "fattening" in the South Pacific?

I only have one reference to list, but I'm sure there are more if you're interested:

Pollock, N. J. (1995) Cultural elaborations of obesity – fattening practices in Pacific societies. Asia Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 4, pp. 357-360.


----------



## ATC529R

LadyOfTheLake said:


> My own idea of "curvy" is in the following blog....whereas it is most likely that the majority of these women are considered too fat by fashion's standards, I think most of them look pretty darn good.
> 
> Curve Appeal
> 
> 
> Too much bigger than this and you are likely heading into "fat" territory, IMO, unless you are lucky enough to have a nice wide frame.


hawt!


----------



## that_girl

I will say this:

With men and women alike, there is a fine line between still attractive and "hell no".

That's all Ima say.


----------



## Wiserforit

that_girl said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Men.
> 
> I haven't seen many men who are "prime" specimens around where I live...


Not to worry. 

Those are the ones who up their game by negging, demonstrating pre-selection and higher dating value, push-pull, deftly field your indicators of interest by paying attention to someone else, but conceal the fact they know all of this terminology from studying PUA literature. Which, I am sure, leaves you in a steaming pile of adulating goo, eh?


----------



## that_girl

Wiserforit said:


> Not to worry.
> 
> Those are the ones who up their game by negging, demonstrating pre-selection and higher dating value, push-pull, deftly field your indicators of interest by paying attention to someone else, but conceal the fact they know all of this terminology from studying PUA literature.


LMAO! Thank god I'm attracted to women.


----------



## Dollystanford

do I want to know what 'negging' is


----------



## Lyris

Machiavelli said:


> Bell curve. It ain't a generalization. It's a plot, in this case of a great many responses. It's about probability and variances and works quite well in social science. Read this and you'll understand how it works.
> 
> 
> Western ideals of beauty? Is this what you mean?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, as we see in the Wikipedia article linked earlier about attraction studies across cultural and geographical concepts of beauty, what is attractive across cultures is remarkably uniform, and "eastern girls" are the winners. Remember, it's in the best interest of a man's genes to find the maximum range of females to be attractive. So, what about these studies of universal attraction? What do they tell us? That _strictly in terms of visual appeal_, men of all races are most highly attracted to East Asian women and women of all races are most highly attracted to African men. Again, I don't care if that doesn't work for you personally (hold the solipsism please) it is a measurable finding. It is no accident that African men reach testosterone max ahead of other males and stay there until about 35, it is also no accident that East Asian women have more estrogen than other women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again, hold the solipsism, facts are facts whether or not you agree with them or have personal experience of them. Everyone out on the margins of the bell curve are marginalized by definition, that's why they fall out on the margins when you plot positions on the graph. I myself am on the margins in terms of what I find attractive, since I personally don't follow the typical male racial attraction order.
> 
> Here's some more western beauty:


Do you have links to any of the studies measuring this? Because I've never heard of it and I'm interested to read them.

I'm also confused, because it doesn't seem to go with the ratio stuff you were mentioning earlier. I've lived in Japan and been to plenty of public bathhouses and there aren't many women with a smaller waist and bigger hips. They tend to be pretty straight up and down. In fact, traditionally, the ideal Japanese women's body was a kind of willowy columnar shape, one that could wear a kimono without padding. 

I am also really sceptical that there is any reliably measurable difference in hormone levels between entire races. My husband has done a fair bit of academic work on the concept of race and the generally accepted science is that there is no variation between races that is reliable and consistent and enough to separate people into racial groups on a biological level.


----------



## Wiserforit

Dollystanford said:


> do I want to know what 'negging' is


That's where a PUA advocate insults you in order to attack your self-esteem and allegedly make him more attractive to you. 

But it is delivered covertly by camoflage as a "back handed compliment". ie, your brains are not quite as good as your looks.


----------



## Lyris

Sorry, I see you did mention a Wikipedia article. I must have missed that. Are there others that are actual real, peer-reviewed studies though?


----------



## Machiavelli

always_alone said:


> Hmmm. Why, then, do they practice "fattening" in the South Pacific?
> 
> I only have one reference to list, but I'm sure there are more if you're interested:
> 
> Pollock, N. J. (1995) Cultural elaborations of obesity – fattening practices in Pacific societies. Asia Pacific Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 4, pp. 357-360.


The one exception that proves the rule. Generally limited to royalty back in the old days. Remember, there are always going to be some a couple of sigma out. YMMV.


----------



## Machiavelli

Dollystanford said:


> do I want to know what 'negging' is


Basically, it's chickless geek-speak for what we used to call "teasing."


----------



## Shadow_Nirvana

Machiavelli said:


> Basically, it's chickless geek-speak for what we used to call "teasing."


Oh come on, doesn't it make this stuff more fun when we talk about it in made-up jargon. I feel cool and scientific


----------



## Red Sonja

I personally think Sophia Loren, Anna Nicole Smith and most on the Curve Appeal blog are “not fat” however my H thinks all these women are either “too fat” or “too big and mushy looking”. I am built like Hope Solo (athlete) and back my college days most guys would pass me over because my body was (and apparently still is) “amazon-like”, “not feminine” and “too muscular” however my H prefers my athletic body type.

Bottom line is to work with what you were given genetically, make it the best it can be and, remember that beauty (or fat) really is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## that_girl

I have a friend who's legs are so muscular (they look large) she could crack a walnut between them. She looks feminine and i'm sure many would say she's overweight...but with her booty and thighs, and small waist, she's amazingly sexy.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Happyquest said:


> And when you can no longer walk the aisles at Walmart to buy your junk food and soda and have to use their handicap cart that is over flowing with crap food.


I get harassed all the time for parking in handicap parking spots. It's embarrassing that my husband has to push me in a wheelchair at the age of 40. I don't use a wheelchair for short distances, but I must rest after 10-15 minutes.

I leave the shopping up to my husband since I'm disabled. It's sucks being a prisoner in your body and not being able to exercise or walk.

I don't eat any junk food, but I thrive on diet Mountain Dew!


----------



## Machiavelli

anonim said:


> I'm quite aware of what a bell curve is, and what it isnt.
> 
> The fact that there are differing degrees of what is found attractive, means that there are differing degrees of what is attractive. One will inevitably be the most frequently occurring, which doesn't mean that others are abnormal. Just less frequently occurring.
> 
> Don't confuse what is normal with what is common.


Abnormal and fetishistic desires exist, but nobody used the word "normal" except for you. I specifically mentioned probability and/or frequency (I think) and since you claim to understand the bell curve, you should understand that's inherently what we are discussing; i.e. commonality and deviations from the norm. Oh, there's that word.




anonim said:


> Practice what you preach, since you don't seem to be able to accept that others might find attractive/beautiful that which you do not.


Ummm. As I said previously, I am myself a deviant with regards to the racial totem pole of female attraction. This makes me somewhat of an outlier or to use your preferred term "marginalized."



anonim said:


> True. Including the fact that some people find things beautiful/attractive, for which you find disdain.


Nobody is disputing that there are outliers. Look at the chubby chaser conventions in Vegas, for example. Lots of these guys around, but as a percentage of the population, they are a couple of standard deviations out there.

And here's the thing, if you eliminated processed foods that don't occur naturally in form suitable for immediate human consumption, and limit diet to meat, fish, vegetables, and fruit, obesity recedes.


----------



## Lyris

Okay, I'm wading through those citations, and so far I'm not finding anything that supports the idea that East Asian women and African men (whatever that means precisely) are the most generally attractive to everyone. Certainly nothing about higher hormone levels.

What I have found is this;



> But researchers now say this isn't just a superficial judgement - women with hourglass figures are more likely to become pregnant.
> 
> Writing in a Royal Society journal, they say this is because women with large breasts and narrow waists have higher hormone levels.
> 
> They say this offers a biological reason for Western views of beauty.
> 
> The study, in the journal Proceedings B, looked at *119 Polish women.*
> 
> Their weight and body fat was checked, and researchers also measured the circumference of their waist, hips, breast and under their breast.
> 
> They were categorised as large breasts/narrow waist, large breasts/broad waists, small breasts/narrow waist or small breasts/broad waist.
> 
> Researchers also took morning saliva samples from the women throughout one menstrual cycle which were measured for levels of two hormones; 17-b oestradial (E2) and progesterone.
> 
> High levels of these hormones are good indicators that a woman will successfully become pregnant.
> 
> 'Good nutrition'
> 
> It was found that women with higher breast to under-breast ratios (large breasts) or low waist to hip ratio (WHR) had higher hormone levels.
> 
> 
> In Western societies, the cultural icon of Barbie as a symbol of female beauty seems to have some biological grounding
> Dr Grazyna Jasienska,
> Harvard University
> Women with both had 26% higher levels of E2 on average, and 37% higher E2 levels mid-cycle than women with in the other three categories.
> 
> Women with low WHR also had higher progesterone levels.
> 
> Writing in Proceedings B, the researchers led by Dr Grazyna Jasienska of Harvard University, said the hourglass figure was popular in Western cultures, but not in others across the world.
> 
> She said men in non-Western societies did not seem to favour women with hourglass figures, and broader figures, indicating good nutritional status, were considered most attractive.
> 
> "However, in Western societies, the cultural icon of Barbie as a symbol of female beauty seems to have some biological grounding," added Dr Jasienska.
> 
> Dr Martin Tovee of the University of Newcastle, who has carried out research into what makes people attractive to others, told BBC News Online the Royal Society paper was not conclusive.
> 
> *"What the results of this paper suggest is that the ratio of bust-to-waist may predict hormone levels.
> 
> "This is in turn may predict fertility, and this might be a reason why the bust-waist ratio might predict attractiveness."
> 
> He added other studies of female attractiveness showed that when images of real women are examined, whether their figure is in proportion was considered the most important feature.
> 
> Height, bust size and waist-to-hip ratio were considered less important, he said.*


And this;



> apanese ideals for body proportions differ from Western ideals. The most prominent example of this is moe, characteristics of which include large eyes, small noses, tall irises[clarification needed], thin limbs, large heads, and neotenized faces.[9] Manga characters are usually sized to be 5.7 to 6.5 heads tall.[9][10][11] Another example of the Japanese ideal is the concept of the gracilized man: in contemporary Japanese society, bishōnen, literally "beautiful boys", are "delicate", "svelte" and "beautiful" males who are drawn to appeal to "adolescent girls".[12]


And this;



> Abstract
> 
> The human eye color blue reflects a simple, predictable, and reliable genetic mechanism of inheritance. Blue-eyed individuals represent a unique condition, as in their case there is always direct concordance between the genotype and phenotype. On the other hand, heterozygous brown-eyed individuals carry an allele that is not concordant with the observed eye color. Hence, eye color can provide a highly visible and salient cue to the child’s heredity. If men choose women with characteristics that promote the assurance of paternity, then blue-eyed men should prefer and feel more attracted towards women with blue eyes. To test these predictions, close-up photos of young women and adult men with either blue or brown eyes were rated for their attractiveness by young women and men observers with either blue or brown eyes (N=88). The eye color in the photographs of each model was manipulated so that a same face would be shown with either the natural eye color (e.g., blue) or with the other color (e.g., brown). Both blue-eyed and brown-eyed female participants showed no difference in their attractiveness ratings for male models of either eye color. Similarly, brown-eyed men showed no preference for either blue-eyed or brown-eyed female models. However, blue-eyed men rated as more attractive the blue-eyed women than the brown-eyed ones. We interpret the latter preference in terms of specific mate selective choice of blue-eyed men, reflecting strategies for reducing paternity uncertainty. In a second study, a group of young adults (N=443) of both sexes and different eye colors (blue, brown, and green) were asked to report the eye and hair color of their romantic partners. Their responses indicated the presence of assortative mating by eye color as well as, to a less degree, for hair color. Most importantly, blue-eyed male respondents were the group with the largest proportion of partners of same eye color. These findings 1) indicate that blue-eyed men do prefer women with the same eye color and 2) specifically suggest the presence of a male adaptation for the detection of extra-pair paternity based on eye color, as a phenotypically based assurance of paternity (i.e., when the father’s and offspring’s phenotypes match) as well as a defense against cuckoldry (i.e., when the phenotypes do not match).


As well as others supporting the hypothesis that people find people who look similar to themselves, ie familiar, more attractive.

So all of those actually directly refute your assertion about the East Asian women and African men. There was also quite a number of articles discussing facial symmetry and attractiveness as related to genetic health. Some more about natural scent and again, its link to genetic characteristics. 

I'm sure many of these studies could be refuted, and/or have bad study designs, such as the first one I quoted which had a sample size of only 119 and in only one country.

So statements you are making about 'facts are facts' and 'the bell curve' just aren't supported in the article you linked to. I don't have time to keep looking, but I will come back to it later.


----------



## anonim

Dollystanford said:


> do I want to know what 'negging' is


its a put down, with the purpose of attacking the ego/self value.


----------



## anonim

Lyris said:


> Okay, I'm wading through those citations, and so far I'm not finding anything that supports the idea that East Asian women and African men (whatever that means precisely) are the most generally attractive to everyone. Certainly nothing about higher hormone levels.
> 
> What I have found is this;
> 
> 
> 
> And this;
> 
> 
> 
> And this;
> 
> 
> 
> As well as others supporting the hypothesis that people find people who look similar to themselves, ie familiar, more attractive.
> 
> So all of those actually directly refute your assertion about the East Asian women and African men. There was also quite a number of articles discussing facial symmetry and attractiveness as related to genetic health. Some more about natural scent and again, its link to genetic characteristics.
> 
> I'm sure many of these studies could be refuted, and/or have bad study designs, such as the first one I quoted which had a sample size of only 119 and in only one country.
> 
> So statements you are making about 'facts are facts' and 'the bell curve' just aren't supported in the article you linked to. I don't have time to keep looking, but I will come back to it later.


The citations are there to keep you looking and them and thereby not refuting his silly arguments.


----------



## that_girl

Can't neg me!  I know who and what I am. At this point in my life, any douche trying those same old, stupid, juvenile drama games will just get shown the door.

Seriously. Be real or go home. Dang.


----------



## Machiavelli

Lyris said:


> Sorry, I see you did mention a Wikipedia article. I must have missed that. Are there others that are actual real, peer-reviewed studies though?


There are extensive notes at the bottom of that article, about 214, IIRC. Those link to scholarly papers, popular press articles that contain links to scholarly papers, etc. There is a ton of stuff on this out there.


----------



## Wiserforit

Machiavelli said:


> Basically, it's chickless geek-speak for what we used to call "teasing."


This is what makes it difficult to have a conversation with proponents. Because important distinctions can be glossed over with synonyms that conceal the malice involved.

Bullying is minimized by the bully in exactly the same way - I was "just teasing". The distinction is that teasing is by definition _playful_. The _recipient_ is the person who defines whether it is playful or not. 

Telling my wife she is fat can either be teasing or an offensive insult, and it is up to her to make that determination. The purpose of negging is to attack the self-esteem, not to joke with someone you are on friendly terms with. A joke is funny to the _recipient_. 

An example of negging with body fat would be to tell the woman that she probably looked great ten pounds ago. Or that you can see she is on a diet, good for her, she doesn't have that much to lose before she starts looking good.

Those comments are not to make her laugh because it is funny to her, but to make her feel self-conscious and insecure. So that she will be vulnerable and in theory want to have sex with you. 

As we know from our PUA geniuses, the fastest way to bed a woman is to call her "fatso".


----------



## Red Sonja

that_girl said:


> I have a friend who's legs are so muscular (they look large) she could crack a walnut between them. She looks feminine and i'm sure many would say she's overweight...but with her booty and thighs, and small waist, she's amazingly sexy.


Oh yeah, I remember those comments and I still get them occasionally when out running or riding my bicycle. My absolute favorite … “you could crack heads between those thighs”. :rofl:


----------



## Lyris

Machiavelli said:


> There are extensive notes at the bottom of that article, about 214, IIRC. Those link to scholarly papers, popular press articles that contain links to scholarly papers, etc. There is a ton of stuff on this out there.


As I said in post 235 I'm reading through them now. I'm not finding anything, peer reviewed or otherwise, to support your racially-based assertions, and i have found several that directly refute it.

Your implication was, here is an article with links to over 200 citations that support what I'm saying. And that's just not true, is it?


----------



## Dollystanford

Men think they can get me into bed by telling me I'm fat so I'll cry and become so desperate that I lower my standards to sleep with them?

awesome


----------



## Ikaika

http://youtu.be/nO5qUyUBcnQ

Is she fat?

Some of you might have your prejudice thoughts, but I see someone who is beautiful. There is no need to classify her.


----------



## anonim

always_alone said:


> Hmmm. Why, then, do they practice "fattening" in the South Pacific?


OR neck stretching?

or lip stretching?

---



Machiavelli said:


> Abnormal and fetishistic desires exist, but nobody used the word "normal" except for you. I specifically mentioned probability and/or frequency (I think) and since you claim to understand the bell curve, you should understand that's inherently what we are discussing; i.e. commonality and deviations from the norm. Oh, there's that word.
> 
> Ummm. As I said previously, I am myself a deviant with regards to the racial totem pole of female attraction. This makes me somewhat of an outlier or to use your preferred term "marginalized."
> 
> Nobody is disputing that there are outliers. Look at the chubby chaser conventions in Vegas, for example. Lots of these guys around, but as a percentage of the population, they are a couple of standard deviations out there.


As you well know, there's a difference between being an 'outlier' in a bell curve and being marginalized.
Calling people weirdos, or chubby chasers is marginalizing, because it's just attacking them for having a different preference. There is no objective standard for what is being judged and no special qualification required to find something attractive.

i.e. saying you dont find east asian women particularly more attractive, is not marginalizing what you do (or dont) find attractive.

saying that most men find east asian women more attractive is not marginalizing either. It speaks nothing of your preferences.

Saying you're a weirdo for finding the media driven western ideal of beauty that has been bludgeoned into your head, your parents heads, and their parents heads, as long as you have been able to see, as attractive IS marginalizing because it is an attempt to diminish you, solely based on the fact that what you like isnt as frequently occurring as what I like.



Machiavelli said:


> And here's the thing, if you eliminated processed foods that don't occur naturally in form suitable for immediate human consumption, and limit diet to meat, fish, vegetables, and fruit, obesity recedes.


Recedes but doesn't disappear, though I agree as people we should eat better.



Machiavelli said:


> The one exception that proves the rule. Generally limited to royalty back in the old days. Remember, there are always going to be some a couple of sigma out. YMMV.



/\
|
This is just is just BS double talk. If there is an 'exception' then its not a rule. Ever heard of science?


----------



## Machiavelli

Lyris said:


> Okay, I'm wading through those citations, and so far I'm not finding anything that supports the idea that East Asian women and African men (whatever that means precisely) are the most generally attractive to everyone. Certainly nothing about higher hormone levels.
> 
> What I have found is this;
> 
> 
> 
> And this;
> 
> 
> 
> And this;
> 
> 
> 
> As well as others supporting the hypothesis that people find people who look similar to themselves, ie familiar, more attractive.
> 
> So all of those actually directly refute your assertion about the East Asian women and African men. There was also quite a number of articles discussing facial symmetry and attractiveness as related to genetic health. Some more about natural scent and again, its link to genetic characteristics.
> 
> I'm sure many of these studies could be refuted, and/or have bad study designs, such as the first one I quoted which had a sample size of only 119 and in only one country.
> 
> So statements you are making about 'facts are facts' and 'the bell curve' just aren't supported in the article you linked to. I don't have time to keep looking, but I will come back to it later.


There is a ton of information on attraction to sift through. As with all peer-reviewed scientific papers, about half is the result of misread data or outright scientific fraud, so YMMV, and there is a bell curve on that. Take your example of blue eyes and the purported paternal insurance plan of blue-eyed males preferring blue-eyed women, this doesn't even stack up in evolutionary theory because blue eyes have only been around for ~6000 years.

As for testosterone, check this out from the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. There are plenty more such available for you to read relating to competitive sports, physique training, sexuality, IQ, impulse control, all kinds of things. happy reading.

Here is one very recent paper on sexual attraction across racial groups.


----------



## Machiavelli

anonim said:


> As you well know, there's a difference between being an 'outlier' in a bell curve and being marginalized.
> Calling people weirdos, or chubby chasers is marginalizing, because it's just attacking them for having a different preference. There is no objective standard for what is being judged and no special qualification required to find something attractive.
> 
> i.e. saying you dont find east asian women particularly more attractive, is not marginalizing what you do (or dont) find attractive.
> 
> saying that most men find east asian women more attractive is not marginalizing either. It speaks nothing of your preferences.
> 
> Saying you're a weirdo for finding the media driven western ideal of beauty that has been bludgeoned into your head, your parents heads, and their parents heads, as long as you have been able to see, as attractive IS marginalizing because it is an attempt to diminish you, solely based on the fact that what you like isnt as frequently occurring as what I like.
> 
> 
> 
> Recedes but doesn't disappear, though I agree as people we should eat better.


It actually does disappear, but it may be necessary to eliminate fruit to achieve a natural physique. Once the excess fat has been lost, unlimited fruit consumption can resume, in most people. Someone who has not already been made obese would find it extremely difficult to become obese in the absence of grain and refined sugar; note the constant force feeding of poi required of Polynesian royalty in former times to achieve obesity.


----------



## Holland

Dollystanford said:


> Men think they can get me into bed by telling me I'm fat so I'll cry and become so desperate that I lower my standards to sleep with them?
> 
> awesome


Wouldn't work on me either. 

The more I read on TAM about PUA etc the more I feel sorry for these poor sods. What the hell did their parents do to them to have such a warped view of women, themselves and life?


----------



## anonim

Wiserforit said:


> This is what makes it difficult to have a conversation with proponents. Because important distinctions can be glossed over with synonyms that conceal the malice involved.
> 
> Bullying is minimized by the bully in exactly the same way - I was "just teasing". The distinction is that teasing is by definition _playful_. The _recipient_ is the person who defines whether it is playful or not.
> 
> Telling my wife she is fat can either be teasing or an offensive insult, and it is up to her to make that determination. The purpose of negging is to attack the self-esteem, not to joke with someone you are on friendly terms with. A joke is funny to the _recipient_.
> 
> An example of negging with body fat would be to tell the woman that she probably looked great ten pounds ago. Or that you can see she is on a diet, good for her, she doesn't have that much to lose before she starts looking good.
> 
> Those comments are not to make her laugh because it is funny to her, but to make her feel self-conscious and insecure. So that she will be vulnerable and in theory want to have sex with you.
> 
> As we know from our PUA geniuses, the fastest way to bed a woman is to call her "fatso".


Nailed it.



Lyris said:


> As I said in post 235 I'm reading through them now. I'm not finding anything, peer reviewed or otherwise, to support your racially-based assertions, and i have found several that directly refute it.
> 
> Your implication was, here is an article with links to over 200 citations that support what I'm saying. And that's just not true, is it?


Like i said, it's just there to waste your time.


----------



## always_alone

Machiavelli said:


> The one exception that proves the rule. Generally limited to royalty back in the old days. Remember, there are always going to be some a couple of sigma out. YMMV.


Okay. Here's another exception, this time in the Caribbean.

Sobo, E. J. (1993) The Sweetness of Fat:* Health, Procreation, and Sociability in Rural Jamaica. In Sault, N. (Ed.), Many Mirrors:* Body Image and Social Relations (pp.132-154). New Brunswick, New Jersey

What was that rule again?


----------



## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> It actually does disappear, but it may be necessary to eliminate fruit to achieve a natural physique. Once the excess fat has been lost, unlimited fruit consumption can resume, in most people. Someone who has not already been made obese would find it extremely difficult to become obese in the absence of grain and refined sugar; note the constant force feeding of poi required of Polynesian royalty in former times to achieve obesity.


Wrong... Poi does not cause one to be obese. Traditional hawaiian diet is very healthy. Naive....


----------



## Lyris

Machiavelli said:


> There is a ton of information on attraction to sift through. As with all peer-reviewed scientific papers, about half is the result of misread data or outright scientific fraud, so YMMV, and there is a bell curve on that. Take your example of blue eyes and the purported paternal insurance plan of blue-eyed males preferring blue-eyed women, this doesn't even stack up in evolutionary theory because blue eyes have only been around for ~6000 years.
> 
> As for testosterone, check this out from the Journal of the National Cancer Institute. There are plenty more such available for you to read relating to competitive sports, physique training, sexuality, IQ, impulse control, all kinds of things. happy reading.
> 
> Here is one very recent paper on sexual attraction across racial groups.




That study is based on 40 undergraduates at a university in Wales. It is not possible to take any findings from such a study and extrapolate it to the wider community, even the wider community of Wales, let alone the entire global human population.

And I don't have any more faith in any of the articles I linked, just to be clear. I was using them to point out that you were using them to support an argument that they most certainly do not.


----------



## Ikaika

http://www.cds.hawaii.edu/kahana/do....D.MeaaiaaOlaHealth/3.D.1.FoodinOldHawaii.pdf


----------



## Lyris

I could only read the abstract of the testosterone one, but it looked interesting. Again, though, it was a pretty narrow sample, and can't be used to extrapolate to the wider community as there was no statistically random sampling.


----------



## diwali123

I used to watch the Pick up Artist and it was fascinating. I would say based on that show, they would never advise men to be that mean. The point wasn't to get her to doubt herself. It was supposedly for really attractive women who are used to being hit on nonstop, to break through their wall of apathy. Usually it would be something about their hair would look better like this, or they don't like that shirt. 
I think it might work on women who are very hot and very secure. 
On anyone else it's going to backfire. 
I've had men tell me I needed to get a tan or grow out my nails. These were guys who there was a potential attraction with and it was over after that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ikaika

Pounding kalo for Uncle Mark - YouTube


----------



## LostViking

I come from a place where obesity is almost unheard of. When I immigrated here I couldn't believe all the fat people I was seeing. 

I'm the wrong person to ask about this because too fat to me is having too much fat period. I have a nine percent body fat ratio and my two ex-wives were both very slim, athletic women. They did not have hangover bellies or huge butts. 

I am simply not attracted to women who have excess body fat at all. Voluptuous or curvy women do not do it for me. I cannot understand why a woman like Kim Kardashian is so fawned over. To me she is fat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Where are you from?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ikaika

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/articles/2012/08/16/most-and-least-obese-us-states


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## LostViking

diwali123 said:


> Where are you from?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Faroe Islands. All we eat is fish and vegetables there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## diwali123

Did you immigrate to the US?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wiserforit

anonim said:


> This is just is just BS double talk. If there is an 'exception' then its not a rule. Ever heard of science?


Anyone who mis-uses this expression as *Machiavelli* did proves themselves disqualified from the science they are pretending to push. 

"The exception that proves the rule" is an expression that means by observing the exception, we can infer what the rule is. For example, a sign might say:

"Children not permitted in pool after 10 P.M." This is an exception that proves the rule is that children can indeed swim in the pool, but only before 10pm.

The expression does NOT mean that if you can find an exception to what you just stated that it proves what you stated is actually true. Talk about irrational!


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## LostViking

diwali123 said:


> Did you immigrate to the US?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


22 years ago. I became a citizen and there is nowhere on earth I would rather live. It is a wonderful country and I have never regretted my decision to come here. 

But having said that, the obesity problem in the US is out of control. What was considered fat ten years ago is sadly becoming "normal" now. Something has to be done about it, but I don't know what can be done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adex

True. There are too many fat people around in the US. These people have to lose weight. In many countries in Europe, most people are slim.

I'm about 6'1" and 179lbs. I don't consider myself fat, but normal. However, when I get to 182lbs or so, my wife starts telling me I look a bit fatter so I lose weight. Losing weight is all about self control and calorie counting.


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## Adex

LostViking said:


> I am simply not attracted to women who have excess body fat at all. Voluptuous or curvy women do not do it for me. I cannot understand why a woman like Kim Kardashian is so fawned over. To me she is fat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agreed. I like my girls like a model type. Even a girl with curves is not that attractive to me. Kim Kardashian is fat and so is her sister Khloe.

Kaley Cuoco the actress from the Big Bang theory, has a nice face but chunky. Jennifer Lopez has too much booty.

Some hot actresses that are skinny are Keira Knightly, Paris Hilton, Kristen Stewart, Blake Lively, etc. SKINNY IS HOT.

I think a lot of guys think like this, but won't say it because it's not too politically correct in American society.


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## OrangeCrush

LostViking said:


> I come from a place where obesity is almost unheard of. When I immigrated here I couldn't believe all the fat people I was seeing.
> 
> I'm the wrong person to ask about this because too fat to me is having too much fat period.


same here (born in Italy, then lived in France). it still isn't 'normal' to me, to see almost everyone on the street is overweight or obese in the US. and i live in Los Angeles; i'm told it's even more extreme in more rural places. it's also weird that in the US i get told all the time i am too skinny, but in France i'm average. 

portion sizes too- it's shocking! i cannot imagine being able to finish a 'serving' of anything here; the portions are just SO big compared to what I'm used to. here you could order one item and it's enough food to share it with 3-4 people. :scratchhead:


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## that_girl

I had a man tell me once, "You have a pretty face....but the rest of you could tone up."

Never dated him again. Saw him a couple years later (looking good) and he asked me out and I have the pleasure of saying "hahahahaha right."


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## that_girl

Dollystanford said:


> Men think they can get me into bed by telling me I'm fat so I'll cry and become so desperate that I lower my standards to sleep with them?
> 
> awesome


Right? LOL Oh please, berate me and then do me. 

:lol:

No.


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## LostViking

There are lots of beautiful women in the US. But I come from what is essentially a Scandinavian culture. Faroese women are slim, blonde and usually gorgeous. I see a lot of American women who could be gorgeous if they would just stop eating fast food.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

How funny. 

Everyone has a preference. I like people lean but NOT skinny. No. 

And if I am to be with a man, he better have a penis over 8 inches. Sorry, just how I roll.


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## that_girl

LostViking said:


> There are lots of beautiful women in the US. But I come from what is essentially a Scandinavian culture. Faroese women are slim, blonde and usually gorgeous. I see a lot of American women who could be gorgeous if they would just stop eating fast food.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's the processed foods that are effing this country up.

But people make choices.

But I do know that even when I'm THIN THIN, I still have a butt. Awww yea.


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## FalconKing

Holland said:


> Wouldn't work on me either.
> 
> The more I read on TAM about PUA etc the more I feel sorry for these poor sods. What the hell did their parents do to them to have such a warped view of women, themselves and life?


If I had to guess Holland....Broken homes, dysfunctional relationships with females close to them, traumatic experiences in romantic relationships, general social awkwardness, thinking lowly of women and then socializing with women who engage in destructive behavior and poor decision making which promotes a self fulfilling prophecy in their reasoning, inability to discern proper compatability in a partner...to name a few..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking

that_girl said:


> It's the processed foods that are effing this country up.
> 
> But people make choices.
> 
> But I do know that even when I'm THIN THIN, I still have a butt. Awww yea.


A pretty round butt is attractive as long as its in proportion to the rest of a womans body. French girls have that in spades. Don't know what it is in their breeding but they have beautiful bottoms. 

Next time you are at the grocery store, pick up random canned goods and count how many have corn syrup as an ingredient. 

It is shocking. Corn syrup is the absolute worst thing thing you can ingest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## T&T

Adex said:


> SKINNY IS HOT.


Do you mean skinny or fit and athletic? 

These models going down the runway are gross IMO. 

2% body fat, barfing after meals, IS gross and it's sends a disturbing message to our female youth. Not to mention, young males...


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## Ikaika

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-trends/obesity-rates-worldwide/


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## that_girl

LostViking said:


> A pretty round butt is attractive as long as its in proportion to the rest of a womans body. French girls have that in spades. Don't know what it is in their breeding but they have beautiful bottoms.
> 
> Next time you are at the grocery store, pick up random canned goods and count how many have corn syrup as an ingredient.
> 
> It is shocking. Corn syrup is the absolute worst thing thing you can ingest.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yea. I decided with my 2nd baby to start cooking from scratch with real ingredients. Best thing I ever did for my family.


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## anonim

LostViking said:


> A pretty round butt is attractive as long as its in proportion to the rest of a womans body. French girls have that in spades. Don't know what it is in their breeding but they have beautiful bottoms.
> 
> Next time you are at the grocery store, pick up random canned goods and count how many have corn syrup as an ingredient.
> 
> It is shocking. *Corn syrup is the absolute worst thing thing you can ingest.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is The Truth. And in the US its hard NOT ingest this stuff. It's in *everything *And if you are poor??? you're screwed.


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## FalconKing

T&T said:


> Do you mean skinny or fit and athletic?
> 
> These models going down the runway are gross IMO.
> 
> 2% body fat, barfing after meals, IS gross and it's sends a disturbing message to our female youth. Not to mention, young males...


I like fitness models. The athletic build. But you should really lay off runaway models You'd look that way too if your diet consisted of cocaine and cigarettes


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## MrsOldNews

We need a "At what point do you consider a man fat" thread 

With pics of course


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## FalconKing

MrsOldNews said:


> We need a "At what point do you consider a man fat" thread
> 
> With pics of course


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## Goldmember357

Well I forgot this thread is about "what you consider" not what reality or science might say. I can see the harbored resentment and detest in this thread. To be fair someone should make "when do you consider a man fat thread" ha


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## arbitrator




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## that_girl

:rofl:

Omg. So funny.


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## LadyOfTheLake

MrsOldNews said:


> We need a "At what point do you consider a man fat" thread
> 
> With pics of course


Or a penis thread. "How small is too small?"


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## LostViking

Then we men will come back with "when is a woman's vagina too droopy?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FalconKing

LadyOfTheLake said:


> Or a penis thread. "How small is too small?"


Pfft..i'm confident in that thread. 







a man has to accept his short comings:yawn2:


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## OrangeCrush

lol, i must be weird because i care very much about looks but not at all about penis size. seriously, it can be the size of my pinky finger and i'll be totally fine with it as long as he's what i consider gorgeous.


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## LadyOfTheLake

OrangeCrush said:


> lol, i must be weird because i care very much about looks but not at all about penis size. seriously, it can be the size of my pinky finger and i'll be totally fine with it as long as he's what i consider gorgeous.


Nah not me. A guy has to be packing.


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## that_girl

I had a man with a small penis. Whoa.

Yea, no thanks.


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## LostViking

Isn't it amazing how females barge in and take over when they don't like the direction the conversation is going. 

See waht you ladies did? You chased off all the men. 

Wasn't this thread about "at what point do you consider a woman too fat?". Are you women even supposed to be posting on a men's forum? I'm new here, so I take it the administrators are lax about the rules.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl

:lol:

Relax, sir. It's all ok 

Now, hush up b'fore I squish you b'tween mah thighs.

Ooh that was bad. lmao. It's all in good fun.

And this is a public forum...


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## anonim

LostViking said:


> Isn't it amazing how females barge in and take over when they don't like the direction the conversation is going.
> 
> See waht you ladies did? You chased off all the men.
> 
> Wasn't this thread about "at what point do you consider a woman too fat?". Are you women even supposed to be posting on a men's forum? I'm new here, so I take it the administrators are lax about the rules.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


its because some of the posters are opining in a derogatory manner with regards to race, gender and socio-economic situations(i.e. class), not so much the topic.


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## that_girl

And haven't we all talked about it to death anyway? Dang. 

Basically, she's too fat when you think she's too fat and that is different for everyone.


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## Machiavelli

drerio said:


> Wrong... Poi does not cause one to be obese. Traditional hawaiian diet is very healthy. Naive....


It certainly is very healthy, which is why force-feeding was said to be necessary to attain the desired levels of royal Hawaiian fatness, according to the old story. As far as the web goes, I could only find one link about force fed fat Hawaiians. 



> In some cultures (eg, Hawaiian royalty), women voluntarily consumed or were force-fed excessive quantities of food to maintain their corpulence, a sign of fertility and power.


Since the web yields basically zero info about Hawaiians being fat prior to the introduction of the high carb white man's diet, I'm thinking this is probably a myth and conflated with Tahitian practices of cramming vast quantities of breadfruit to gain fatness (ha’apori). I couldn't find anything about Hawaiians doing the same.

So, Hawaiians force feeding for fatness prior to the arrival of refined carbs: most likely a myth.


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## Machiavelli

LostViking said:


> I am simply not attracted to women who have excess body fat at all. Voluptuous or curvy women do not do it for me. I cannot understand why a woman like Kim Kardashian is so fawned over. To me she is fat.


And that's not even counting those fake-ass ass implants.


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## LostViking

that_girl said:


> :lol:
> 
> Relax, sir. It's all ok
> 
> Now, hush up b'fore I squish you b'tween mah thighs.
> 
> Ooh that was bad. lmao. It's all in good fun.
> 
> And this is a public forum...


Let me see your thighs first. I'd like to have a glimpse of the implements of my destruction before I leave this earth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

hahaha 

My thighs aren't that bad.


----------



## Machiavelli

Wiserforit said:


> Anyone who mis-uses this expression as *Machiavelli* did proves themselves disqualified from the science they are pretending to push.
> 
> "The exception that proves the rule" is an expression that means by observing the exception, we can infer what the rule is. For example, a sign might say:
> 
> "Children not permitted in pool after 10 P.M." This is an exception that proves the rule is that children can indeed swim in the pool, but only before 10pm.
> 
> The expression does NOT mean that if you can find an exception to what you just stated that it proves what you stated is actually true. Talk about irrational!


I'm obviously using it in the colloquial sense, that there are outliers that are so unusual they're unique or nearly so. Of course it's whacked to say "exception that proves the rule" in this context, and that's what makes it so amusing. If that troubles you, I will merely point out that the bell curve often has a very thin leading edge and a very long tail. Do you like that better, boo boo? And as I say in just about every post on this stuff: YMMV. Do you understand that one?


----------



## LostViking

that_girl said:


> hahaha
> 
> My thighs aren't that bad.


I'll take your word for it. But I warn you, you would have a hard time squeezing me. I'm a slick rubber-skinned island boy. I would slip out of your thighs like a wet bar of soap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ikaika

Machiavelli said:


> It certainly is very healthy, which is why force-feeding was said to be necessary to attain the desired levels of royal Hawaiian fatness, according to the old story. As far as the web goes, I could only find one link about force fed fat Hawaiians.
> 
> 
> 
> Since the web yields basically zero info about Hawaiians being fat prior to the introduction of the high carb white man's diet, I'm thinking this is probably a myth and conflated with Tahitian practices of cramming vast quantities of breadfruit to gain fatness (ha’apori). I couldn't find anything about Hawaiians doing the same.
> 
> So, Hawaiians force feeding for fatness prior to the arrival of refined carbs: most likely a myth.


It is a myth


----------



## that_girl

LostViking said:


> I'll take your word for it. But I warn you, you would have a hard time squeezing me. I'm a slick rubber-skinned island boy. I would slip out of your thighs like a wet bar of soap.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: Oh the things you say.

 Dang.


----------



## Machiavelli

LostViking said:


> 22 years ago. I became a citizen and there is nowhere on earth I would rather live. It is a wonderful country and I have never regretted my decision to come here.


You should have come sooner, before everything was made a felony. 



LostViking said:


> But having said that, the obesity problem in the US is out of control. What was considered fat ten years ago is sadly becoming "normal" now. Something has to be done about it, but I don't know what can be done.


This is the government's fault, mostly Sen. George McGovern demonizing any food that could not be processed from corn or other grains grown in South Dakota. Now that fat is being rehabilitated, the ship will very very slowly be turned around. I'm surprised at how much of this is starting to filter out into the media lately, so there is hope.


----------



## Machiavelli

LostViking said:


> There are lots of beautiful women in the US. But I come from what is essentially a Scandinavian culture. Faroese women are slim, blonde and usually gorgeous. I see a lot of American women who could be gorgeous if they would just stop eating fast food.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They were eating that back in the 60's and 70's and looked great. The difference is, the hamburger buns were smaller (flatter), you got about 12 fries in a tiny paper envelope, and biggest coke you could get was a 10 oz "King-Size" coke. Plus, the coke was sweetened with real cane sugar. Today, the US govt pays subsidies to sugar can growers and tariffs sugar imports to keep the cane sugar price artificially high while simultaneously subsidizing corn farmers so we can poison ourselves on HFCS. Poor Congress, so much bribe money, so little time.

I had a really fat cousin in the 60's who people would actually call "fatso." I was looking at some old photos from then and he looked completely normal by today's very very low standards of physique.


----------



## Machiavelli

that_girl said:


> How funny.
> 
> Everyone has a preference. I like people lean but NOT skinny. No.
> 
> And if I am to be with a man, he better have a penis over 8 inches. Sorry, just how I roll.


Well, crap! I just had penis reduction surgery due to all the complaints I was getting.


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## that_girl

SO TRUE.

Portion sizes are INSANE and we think they are normal.

Which is why we rarely eat out.


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## Wiserforit

Machiavelli said:


> I'm obviously using it in the colloquial sense,


Not very sharp on vocabulary either, are we? You used the expression incorrectly, period. A colloquialism is informal or conversational - not something flatly incorrect. 

Parading around as the scientist with" published research" and then defending this incorrect useage on the basis of how informal you are being is pretty charming. 



> that there are outliers that are so unusual they're unique or nearly so. Of course it's whacked to say "exception that proves the rule" in this context, and that's what makes it so amusing. If that troubles you, I will merely point out that the bell curve often has a very thin leading edge and a very long tail. Do you like that better, boo boo? And as I say in just about every post on this stuff: YMMV. Do you understand that one?


I taught statistics at the undergraduate and graduate levels for two decades. I'm an econometrician.

A boo boo econometrician. If you want to get formal about it I highly doubt this preference is a normal distribution. It won't be symmetric, that's for sure, and is probably truncated too. I'll estimate this one for $200 an hour for you if you like.


----------



## Machiavelli

that_girl said:


> SO TRUE.
> 
> Portion sizes are INSANE and we think they are normal.
> 
> Which is why we rarely eat out.


Before me and my wife got fat, we would always split a meal when eating out. We got fat when we quit doing that. We're not fat anymore, but we always carry half or more of our meal home with us.


----------



## Machiavelli

Wiserforit said:


> Not very sharp on vocabulary either, are we? You used the expression incorrectly, period. A colloquialism is informal or conversational - not something flatly incorrect.
> 
> Parading around as the scientist with" published research" and then defending this incorrect useage on the basis of how informal you are being is pretty charming.
> 
> 
> 
> I taught statistics at the undergraduate and graduate levels for two decades. I'm an econometrician.
> 
> A boo boo econometrician. If you want to get formal about it I highly doubt this preference is a normal distribution. It won't be symmetric, that's for sure, and is probably truncated too. I'll estimate this one for $200 an hour for you if you like.


You ladies crack me up. While it's true that I am a published author, where did I ever claim to be a scientist? I provided links that backed up what I said, if you don't like them what's that to me?


----------



## Wiserforit

Machiavelli said:


> You ladies crack me up. While it's true that I am a published author, where did I ever claim to be a scientist? I provided links that backed up what I said, if you don't like them what's that to me?



For a lady I did quite well at welterweight. Better call the AAU, the ABF, the NCAA and various state athletic associations to ask why they didn't notice I was a girl at weigh-ins.


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## Dollystanford

I was going to say I could have sworn you were a dude


----------



## Lyris

If the links are to poorly designed, statistically invalid studies which can be refuted with almost no effort, ie by me, using Google for about ten minutes, then their backing-up value is negligible.

On the sugar subject though, I have to say, whenever I use recipes from American websites I always cut the sugar by about half. Even from healthy websites, like the Rawtarian, the food ends up much too sweet. 

And people here are pretty fat, so I'm not trying to point fingers. But, yeah, you people like stuff sweeeeeet.


----------



## LostViking

Lyris said:


> If the links are to poorly designed, statistically invalid studies which can be refuted with almost no effort, ie by me, using Google for about ten minutes, then their backing-up value is negligible.
> 
> On the sugar subject though, I have to say, whenever I use recipes from American websites I always cut the sugar by about half. Even from healthy websites, like the Rawtarian, the food ends up much too sweet.
> 
> And people here are pretty fat, so I'm not trying to point fingers. But, yeah, you people like stuff sweeeeeet.


Absolutely. I was shocked the first time I opened a can of spinach here in the US, to make a quiche, and I couldnt believe it was sweet! 

Spinach isn't upposed to be sweet! 

I rarely if ever eat canned or bottled foods anymore. If I want a sauce I'll make my own.


----------



## that_girl

Why you usin' canned? Barf.


----------



## diwali123

Our country has a lot of stake in people being fat. if you think about how much money is spent on food, recipe books, recipe websites, the food network, diet plans, gyms, bariatric surgery, it's mind boggling. 
Our culture has a very sick take on food and bodies. Yes people have choices but when you are raised to associate certain foods with events, celebrations, even love, it's hard to give those up. 
If someone has a food addiction it's not like they can just stop eating. They can't just stop going to places where there are unhealthy foods because they are everywhere. 

Last year I was on weight watchers. Our team at work had a food day and I didn't want to go because it's all junk and I was feeling tempted. People looked at me like I was crazy. My overweight boss actually called me from the room and told me to go up there. It was supposed to be voluntary on our lunch breaks and I had already taken mine. 

In addition many people are on medications that cause severe weight gain. 

Then when you work a desk job and have to drive everywhere because your city is so spread out....

I'm not trying to make excuses but I see that this culture is set up to make people fat and it's working.

I have been lucky that my relationships have been with men with 7 or more inches. I don't know how I would react to a pinky size penis. I don't think I would like it. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## that_girl

Fat, stupid and lazy people can't revolt


----------



## Machiavelli

Wiserforit said:


> For a lady I did quite well at welterweight. Better call the AAU, the ABF, the NCAA and various state athletic associations to ask why they didn't notice I was a girl at weigh-ins.


I guess it was the Dianabol. Did you stack it with Winnie?


----------



## Machiavelli

diwali123 said:


> I have been lucky that my relationships have been with men with 7 or more inches. I don't know how I would react to a pinky size penis. I don't think I would like it.


This is very depressing and confirms my personal experience with women. You're all size queens. I can tell you I would not want to be single again in my diminished state.


----------



## Machiavelli

that_girl said:


> Fat, stupid and lazy people can't revolt


Funny you should say this. Some people are getting smarter, more active, and less fat every day. If you get my drift.


----------



## that_girl

Size only matters to a woman based on the size/shape of her own anatomy.


----------

