# Advice needed -- 1 hours before appointment



## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

Hi…sorry for the late notice but I could use some advice before my wife & I go to our marriage counseling session today at 2pm. So, if anyone catches this in the next hour, please provide your input if you have any.

I have been doing a ton of thinking and reading lately, and my own individual counselor was able to help direct my thoughts this morning.

I have started realizing that a big part of my failure in my marriage was my lack of clear & direct communication. Because of the way that my wife reacts to stress and confrontation (passive aggressive, won’t speak for days, never really apologizes, etc.), I basically have, for years, avoided conflict with her. Thus, I would internalize many of my feelings and that probably led to a lot of resentment. That resentment, in turn, probably led to me not being the “loving” husband I could have been and thus, helped to create the environment that enabled 2 EA’s by my wife.

So this leads me to two things. One, I have to start saying what I want to say and then deal with whatever outcome happens (good or bad). In other words, I need to have the courage to stand there, say what I believe, and take the result, which might be unpleasant or might be productive.

Two, my wife has always been selfish. It is probably her one, major character flaw. That selfishness is probably at the center of many of our problems (her selfishness and the way that I have dealt with it).

So, today in counseling, I want to call her out on it but I am not sure how. Do I just say, “I think you are a selfish person?” I want to speak my mind but I don’t want to sound like I am attacking her.

Thoughts?


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Be honest , choose your words carefully. The MC may not ask you for any input at this stage so play it by ear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

John7308 said:


> I have started realizing that a big part of my failure in my marriage was my lack of clear & direct communication. Because of the way that my wife reacts to stress and confrontation (passive aggressive, won’t speak for days, never really apologizes, etc.), I basically have, for years, avoided conflict with her. Thus, I would internalize many of my feelings and that probably led to a lot of resentment. That resentment, in turn, probably led to me not being the “loving” husband I could have been and thus, helped to create the environment that enabled 2 EA’s by my wife.


Say all of the above in counselling today.

Re: the selfishness...you can word it like this "When you do X, I don't feel you have both of our best itnerests. I want a partnership with you... a mutually satisfying one and I feel we could do that if we both did X and you did X and I do X"

DO NOT HOLD BACK IN MC!!! Lay all your cards out on the table. Too many times people don't say what is happening/how they are truly feeling in MC!


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

John, you are in a very similar situation as I was right before my 1st session. You need to tell the counselor, with your W listening, why you feel you can't communicate with her. Why you feel you can't say things and thus have built resentment. You don't need to tell her she is selfish. If your W can understand where you are coming from and that you are working on your part to make the marriage work, this will go a long way. Having the counselor validate what you are saying really helps too.

If she is going to this session begrudgingly though, be prepared for a rough ride. She has to want to be there to really make it a successful session. And also know that the first session covers a lot of background, etc, and you might not get to the meat of the issue the first time you go.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Yes. Tell her what you think. Mine has BPD and I would keep things in just to avoid conflict. She had an affair and I have voiced every complaint I have held in for 16 yrs. BTW, it not your fault she chose to be selfish and have the EAs. If you don't call her on being selfish then there are no consequences for her. Why should she stop if you aren't going to say anything to her?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

One way is to speak about it from your perspective, rather than hers. "I feel like my needs are not important" as opposed to "You only care about your needs."


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

1. This will actually be our 3rd session for any of you that thought is was our 1st. Sorry if I was not clear.

2. The MC really has talked much about MY recovery from the affair. Which I think is a big thing, because even if we identify what created the environment, I (or we) can't fix it while I am still recovering from my wife's second EA.

3. Some of you have given me some good ways of saying without being to harsh, but I am not sure. For example, Tall Average Guy had a good idea by saying "I feel like my needs are not important" as opposed to "You only care about your needs." My wife will hear that and understand what I am saying...but will she understand that I am saying YOU ARE SELFISH AND HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS.

On one hand, I think if I hold anything back during these sessions, I am defeating the purpose. Likewise, if I am too bold, and I am afraid of unintentionally sinking the whole thing.


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

joe kidd said:


> BTW, it not your fault she chose to be selfish and have the EAs.


Yeah I have said multiple times to her that SHE chose to have the EA. If she would have taken all of that energy that she put into the EAs and simply came to me to let me know the problems, we would have been in a very different place right now.

What I do accept though is that I have responsible for helping to create an environment that may have promoted some of these problems.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

John7308 said:


> Yeah I have said multiple times to her that SHE chose to have the EA. If she would have taken all of that energy that she put into the EAs and simply came to me to let me know the problems, we would have been in a very different place right now.
> 
> What I do accept though is that I have responsible for helping to create an environment that may have promoted some of these problems.


True. I'm in the same boat. Let me put it this way.... for 16 yrs I was Neville Chamberlain. Now I'm Winston Churchill. Appeasement does not work. By not voicing my opinion I help create the environment that lead to her affair. IMO


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> If she is going to this session begrudgingly though, be prepared for a rough ride.


She is going by choice, just like me. So that is a good thing.



Gabriel said:


> And also know that the first session covers a lot of background, etc, and you might not get to the meat of the issue the first time you go.


This is our 3rd session so a lot of that background has been covered. Hoping to get further along here soon.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I'd be for just saying "I feel like many of her actions have been selfish in the past." If it's what you're feeling, why not say it?

How badly does she want R? You might set her back by saying it, but you might also feel really good for getting it off your chest. Plus, the MC will be there and will help diffuse the situation. You don't want to bottle it up, then some night yell it at your wife in an arguement.

Last year I had started to jokingly tell my H, "You're greedy and selfish with your time", we'd laugh but it was true. I only added the "with your time" to soften the joke (had to be there). He did start to get kind of p!$$ed, because he knew I actually felt this way. Turns out I was dead on, he was in the middle of an affair which is exceedlingly selfish.

Now, he fully admits he's been a selfish person in our marriage, not just with his time. It's very eye opening for him and is helping a lot in our recovery. He also realizes how untrustworthy he was in the past (aside from the affair), he just did what he wanted if he thought it was okay. Like I said, selfish.

Anyway, I'm not sure where you are in R or how badly she wants it, so only you can judge what feels right for the session.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

I should add we've been in MC for several months now and it's helped a lot. Our MC mentioned in our last session I've grown a lot too, how some of my comments in therapy early on sounded juvenille. Turns out both of us needed to grow up... and we're in our 40s!


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

Saffron said:


> I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I'd be for just saying "I feel like many of her actions have been selfish in the past." If it's what you're feeling, why not say it?


That is exactly how I am going to say it. That sounds better than just saying "You are selfish"



Saffron said:


> How badly does she want R?


I think she wants R, but she only wants to R if we fix things that were not right before (communication, etc.). I agree with that. It only makes sense.


I just think that for me to have the relationship that I need to have, I am going to have to start "keeping it real" being pretty straightforward. And if she can't handle me being who I am (while still be respectful of others of course), then we will figure out our relationship problems really quickly. Our reconciliation isn't going to work without some communication changes on both of our parts.


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

joe kidd said:


> True. I'm in the same boat. Let me put it this way.... for 16 yrs I was Neville Chamberlain. Now I'm Winston Churchill. Appeasement does not work. By not voicing my opinion I help create the environment that lead to her affair. IMO


Come on man, I had to go look those names up to understand the example. I get it know though!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

John7308 said:


> 13. Some of you have given me some good ways of saying without being to harsh, but I am not sure. For example, Tall Average Guy had a good idea by saying "I feel like my needs are not important" as opposed to "You only care about your needs." My wife will hear that and understand what I am saying...but will she understand that I am saying YOU ARE SELFISH AND HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS.
> 
> On one hand, I think if I hold anything back during these sessions, I am defeating the purpose. Likewise, if I am too bold, and I am afraid of unintentionally sinking the whole thing.


It sounds like she is offended whenever you express your feelings. Not sure there is any work around on that. I would expect that the MC will support your position more if you use the softer language. However, at the end of the day, you need to express your feelings. If you don't, what is the point?


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> It sounds like she is offended whenever you express your feelings. Not sure there is any work around on that.


Whenever my feels are in directly conflict with hers, then yes, we have always had problems. She gets passive aggressive for DAYS (silent treatment, one words answers, etc.) and then sends an email to apologize. I swallow it, and then resent it. Not healthy.

I hope you are wrong about their not being any work around that...otherwise this marriage is screwed! 



Tall Average Guy said:


> I would expect that the MC will support your position more if you use the softer language. However, at the end of the day, you need to express your feelings. If you don't, what is the point?


 Agreed.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

John7308 said:


> Come on man, I had to go look those names up to understand the example. I get it know though!



do they teach history these days?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

John7308 said:


> I hope you are wrong about their not being any work around that...otherwise this marriage is screwed!
> 
> Agreed.


What I meant was there is no work around to avoiding the conflict. If she is going to get mad either way, then you will have to face her getting mad, at least initially. Good luck.


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## totallyconfused (Mar 20, 2009)

I never found saying "I think you are selfish" worked in MC.

I did find that saying "Your choice to have an affair was selfish. You had options. You could have divorced me. You could have asked me to sleep on the couch. You could have talked to me. You chose a different course. Not me."

Also, saying "I feel that ..." rather than "You are ..." is a a much more effective way of communicating a point. The former is actually about the speaker. The latter is an indictment of the listener.


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

well, I am back from the session.

It really didn't even get to that point. These sessions need to be twice as long because at the end of every hour I feel like I need to keep talking and listening.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

John7308 said:


> well, I am back from the session.
> 
> It really didn't even get to that point. These sessions need to be twice as long because at the end of every hour I feel like I need to keep talking and listening.



Yeah, we went 4 times total, and I just cant afford it for awhile - hopefully we'll go back again soon. In 1 of the 4 I felt we really got somewhere - the last one. It was better than any of the other three combined.

I totally hear you on the communication. When EAs happen, your world is turned so upside down that you really have nothing more to lose, so why swallow things? That's what I decided - I was you before. Now I just tell her right away if something is bothering me instead of stewing about it and getting resentful. I do it in the calmest, most respectful way possible though, not in anger, more like, "I want to let you know it bothers me when you do XXX. I just want to tell you how I'm feeling so I don't bottle it up and let it get worse."


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## John7308 (Aug 17, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Yeah, we went 4 times total, and I just cant afford it for awhile - hopefully we'll go back again soon. In 1 of the 4 I felt we really got somewhere - the last one. It was better than any of the other three combined.
> 
> I totally hear you on the communication. When EAs happen, your world is turned so upside down that you really have nothing more to lose, so why swallow things? That's what I decided - I was you before. Now I just tell her right away if something is bothering me instead of stewing about it and getting resentful. I do it in the calmest, most respectful way possible though, not in anger, more like, "I want to let you know it bothers me when you do XXX. I just want to tell you how I'm feeling so I don't bottle it up and let it get worse."


Between us doing couples therapy, my therapy, and hers, this crap adds up quick. I guess it is cheaper than divorce at this point though.

I actually talked to the other man's wife last night. She said they were doing much better but he was still not living back at home. Essentially they go out together on the weekends for now...almost like they are dating again. Anyway, she mentioned that they started and completed their MC. It shocked me because they did 4 visits and that was it. In 4 visits I don't even think we have gotten to very far at all.

What is typical for MC? 

And yes, saying whats on my mind in a respectful manner, is something that I MUST start doing..otherwise the resentment for not saying it only help to kill the relationship.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

My MC said to give it a year. Not sure if she meant the therapy or our marriage, but I think a little bit of both.

We went to MC every week after d-day, then every other, now we're about every third. So, we've gone around 20 times already. We do not do individual sessions, instead we work on our personal issues together. The idea is by improving ourselves, we will improve our marriage. Of course we discuss our marriage, but our sessions are all comprehensive. So far I find it really helpful.

Can't believe the OMW said they're done with therapy after 4 session, that seems too early to have really tackled any major issues. Regardless, it's more important to focus on your own MC and continuing.

The way your wife responsed to you in the past, when you expressed feelings that were contradictory to hers, sounds incredibly juvenille. It's like a middle grade or highschooler giving the silent treatment for days. To have effective communication she will need to face her own issues as to why she doesn't take your differing opinion well. 

Many of us have problems with communicating. I alway like to make sure I'm "heard" and hate being wrong. We've figured out it could be childhood family dynamic stuff at work, my being the youngest of a large family. I was often blamed by my older siblings for things I didn't do and didn't feel anyone listened to me. I'm sure things we learn early on can become subconsciously ingrained. It takes a willingness to realize our flaws in order to grow and make improvements.


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