# Together 20 years, through a dry spell, and coming back. My story to share.



## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

In a different thread "Porn is the Devil" I responded to a simple comment as to why two people would stay together if they didn't fancy each other. In the context of why one might turn to porn or porn addiction (as a way to augment sex activity) because the wife wasn't very interested, I told my story. I got some positive reaction to this post and at least one request to discuss it, so I have created this post as a way to share similar stories rather than totally threadjack the porn discussion.

I'd be happy to elaborate on my story if interested, hear similar stories, maybe offer support or even advice to others.

Thanks for reading.

The original post I responded to is https://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/432277-porn-devil.html#post19823883
Here is that post and my response in it's entirety:



MaiChi said:


> I don't get why spouses stay together if they do not fancy each other. Surely if one needs sex and the other is not ill then there is a half way point to be reached.
> 
> What exactly is the need for porn? What does it add to anyone and how does it replace sex with a spouse if he/she is not wanting to take part? Would it not just increase the frustration?





JamesTKirk said:


> If only it was that simple.
> If you're married for a year or two and it's not working, then save yourself the misery and end it. But what if like in my case we're married 13 years (together 17,) love each other, are happily married, had a fantastic sex life, then one day she just drops to zero desire? The relationship dynamic maked a big shift and where I'd normally get some flirtation, interest, sexual advances or maybe even straight up initiating sex, I the response is always along the lines of not really wanting to, but she'll "take care of your needs." The frequency of sex becomes forever less frequent and when it is, it's not very good because she seems like she doesn't want to. In my case, I just stopped initiating to see how long we would go before she said anything. After 3 months I gave up. She called my bluff. I even made several attempts to get her to suggest it, but she managed to find a way to avoid getting trapped into having sex with me.
> 
> So what, you just get divorced. No, not for a dozen reasons. After all, has she done anything wrong? Hasn't lied, cheated, been abusive, says she loves you, the relationship is otherwise quite good, she just doesn't want to have sex with anyone (including you) but *will* if you *need* to. But you're really tired of having to work so hard for reluctant duty sex.
> ...


Cheers,
JT Kirk


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

I’m not going to quote your entire post but to me this looks like she has “trained” you to accept whatever affection or sex she decides to give you and your attitude is it’s better than nothing. 
It is better than nothing but to a starving man a slice of bread looks like a feast. 
And you seem to be settling for breadcrumbs. 
If this is acceptable to you then that’s fine and I wish you luck but to a lot of people of both sexes it would seem like duty sex.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

So, Tiberius....

One question for which your response may be interesting....


Was it worth it?

What I mean is, with the "comeback" in place and on firm footing...

Is it better that you now have what you consider to be a satisfactory sexual relationship with someone you've shared all the other joys and sorrows of the last 20 years

or

do you think it might have been better to have bailed 20 years ago and tried again, assuming you would have found a satisfactory sexual relationship with someone else, but wouldn't have all that shared history and non-sexual bonding that comes with it?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

My questions are:

Was it discovered why or what was going on with her?

Why did she suddenly stop? What caused it within her?

Where was her head at and what was she thinking/going through internally, when she blew up at you for commenting about her sexy rear?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

We went through a very brief phase where she reduced frequency and tried to establish a controlling/doling out kind of attitude on her part when it came to sex.

I conducted a similar experiment with not initiating and I think I got to the one month mark before I started initiating again and digging into her about it.

Turns out a couple of church ladies had gotten a hold of her and convinced her that she was just being used by me and she needed to exert more Independence from me.

There was a plague of female infidelity and female initiated divorce during this time that was sweeping through the region we were living in and there was a particularly strong movement in the church.

I found this out, about the church ladies, after our breakthrough where I sat her down and explained a couple things to my wayward sweetie.

I'm a bit what might be referred to as alpha and, after Mrs. C had decided we were not having sex yet again, I sat her down and explained that I was a very passionate alpha male that was going to pour my passions into a woman. I let her know that I had chosen her to be that woman but, if she was going to try to put me off, I would be pouring my passions into another woman. I told her that I didn't want anyone but her but I would not be denied and I would definitely lack no shortage of applications for the next Mrs. Conan. 

She got a tear in her eye, grabbed my hand and led me upstairs to the bedroom and proceeded to leave no doubt who Mrs. Conan was and who she would always be.

We have had no issues since.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

The last two years leading up to this past December in terms of sex life, things hit rock bottom (In those 2 years or so I would say I had sex less than 10 times total). Since December we are probably averaging 10 times a month now. It is definitely possible to turn things around. However, it requires communication and two people who truly want to make each other happy. Unfortunately, it seems quite often (based on TAM, although I know there would undoubtedly be a bias since most people come here b/c of relationship problems) that one spouse / SO really has minimal interest in working together (or is looking to only do the bare minimum). In a case like that, if the relationship is going to continue, it typically limps along, with one person just settling for what little they can get.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Andy1001 said:


> I’m not going to quote your entire post but to me this looks like she has “trained” you to accept whatever affection or sex she decides to give you and your attitude is it’s better than nothing.
> It is better than nothing but to a starving man a slice of bread looks like a feast.
> And you seem to be settling for breadcrumbs.
> If this is acceptable to you then that’s fine and I wish you luck but to a lot of people of both sexes it would seem like duty sex.


Some people have to compromise... it sucks, but if you love your partner, you are loved back and there is communication, I don't think it's "settling for breadcrumbs". It's a rational way to solve the problem... not duty sex. How sustainable this is on the long run is a completely different kettle of fish.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> I’m not going to quote your entire post


Thank you. I really don't like when people quote a wall of text. 


> but to me this looks like she has “trained” you to accept whatever affection or sex she decides to give you and your attitude is it’s better than nothing.
> It is better than nothing but to a starving man a slice of bread looks like a feast.
> And you seem to be settling for breadcrumbs.
> If this is acceptable to you then that’s fine and I wish you luck but to a lot of people of both sexes it would seem like duty sex.


It appears that had been the case. I don't think her intent was to train me, rather she didn't want to so avoid creating an opportunity for it to happen therefore avoiding unnecessary affection. I'm not completely off the hook here. As she became evasive (at least from my perspective) I also pulled back. As it turns out her reason for avoiding sex ended up being pain (literal pain,) which I can understand. But she's a bad communicator and instead of communicating, chose to tolerate duty sex as little as possible.

No, that's not fine to me. That's the part of the "success story" in turning this around. This devolved over a two year period until I hit my limit and it's not something that happens suddenly so much as it is a gradual thing that leaves you trying to figure out exactly what is wrong (if anything.) Is it me? Is it her? Is is it age? Is there actually something wrong or is it in my head? 

Well one day I wasn't going to let it go any further which is why I confronted her about it, didn't let her talk her way out of it, and insisted on a change. But I did it in a very constructive and positive way around the message of rebuilding the intimacy, sex, and getting us back to where we were. That was a process.

Today it's not that way. She's gives unprompted affection and responds positively to mine.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

So she developed a health problem that gave her pain during sex and didn't communicate about it at all with you and also didn't seek treatment.

Did she snap at you as a defense mechanism or something when you commented about her sexy behind?


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> So, Tiberius....
> 
> One question for which your response may be interesting....
> 
> ...


Having had sexual relationships (and romantic relationships) with many women, I feel my judge of compatibility and sexual compatibility to be well informed. Twenty years ago we had a very satisfying sexual relationship and did so for at least the first fifteen years. When you have a good sex life, sex is no big deal and it's not something I gave a lot of thought to for most of our relationship.

There is only one other woman I can think of that I had "better" sex with and she was literally a nympho. I thought that was the jackpot at the time but after a couple of months of that, I was bored. If you have gormet desert at every meal, it starts to taste like ordinary desert. Maybe even pass on dessert this time around. And there was no compatibility with her. We had nothing to talk about outside the bedroom. I'd been with more sexual women and it wasn't necessarily better and they tended to be cheaters anyway. I think I hit a great balance of honest, loyal, compatible, and sexually compatible.

We're not perfect and we have our issues as do all couples, but those are things I can decidedly live with because they're trivial to the important ones.

So no regrets, and yes it was worth it. She's a great woman. And now that I have it back, I'm quite happy.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

So JamesT what's ultimately your advice to men with wives who have decreased sex drive? If you advise them to stay away from the porn.. how do you propose they do that?

I think for every good ending like yours there is probably a bad ending where hubby retreats to porn and never "wins" his wife back. Do you agree?


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> My questions are:
> 
> Was it discovered why or what was going on with her?
> 
> ...


Really a combination of factors.

First and foremost, pain the vagina causing painful sex. Being a bad communicator this wasn't adequately communicated to me. As a result, it became something she just tried to avoid resulting in lack of affection. This added to my unhappiness (also fueled by my job) so I became grumpy and withdrawn. She was unhappy about her post-birth weight gain so she didn't feel sexy. Most importantly, she just lost her sex drive completely which I think was due to hormones. The hormone situation is partially having a baby, age, and malnutrition (I think.) Add to that a five year old taking a lot of attention. Also she started becoming athletic to get back into shape so getting up early to work out meant that she wanted to get to sleep early and not drink wine and drinking wine both helps her get in the mood and gives us "us" time to be together. She just wasn't making time to be with me.

On top of that, this made me unhappy so lack of affection made me start to obsess over lack of sex, lack of interest from her, and just generally kind of freaking out over what to do. From her perspective she seemed to think things were "fine" but my perspective we lost the passion and I was having a hard time getting her to understand that. I got some "that's in your head" responses, but to be fair I sometimes included accusations of her not being in love with me anymore or not being attracted to me.

It took a while to dig into all of these issues, identify, and address them. Knowing what I know now it sounds easy, but at the time I was fishing for "a reason" and it turned out to be a combination all feeding off each other.

Where was hear head when he blew up at me? According to her it was "I'm fat, don't look at me." Maybe as a woman unhappy with her appearance that's valid perspective, but I was complimenting her so I didn't understand it. When I pointed out that she should be flattered that her husband is attracted to her and how out of place her response was, she apologized and agreed. So maybe it was an honest misunderstanding, but it came at time that validated my fears.
She never did anything like that again. If I can turn to one specific turning point, that would probably be it. It opened the door to discuss (or fight) about what was going on. Genuinely wanting to be a good wife, she changed her attitude after that. If I did something like that again, she'd just wiggle her sexy butt and wink (an expected response.)

The fix was visiting a doctor about her vagina and talking to me about it. Then it was getting her to get proper nutrition and supplements to see if it would fix it. Having no sex drive, fixing the lack of sex problem didn't seem to be a priority to her as a motivational force. So it took patience and persistence. And since discussions was what led to this revelation, at that point I had adequately communicated to her that I was unhappy, got her to admit there was a problem to be fixed, and agree to work on it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> So JamesT what's ultimately your advice to men with wives who have decreased sex drive? If you advise them to stay away from the porn.. how do you propose they do that?
> 
> I think for every good ending like yours there is probably a bad ending where hubby retreats to porn and never "wins" his wife back. Do you agree?


The answer to that is simple. What you've never answered is...

...for every good ending like that, there are many more where the wife isn't coming around even if hubby never turns to porn. So again, let's ask you what the guy is to do in that situation? You can't use porn. You can't divorce. So that leaves just sucking it up and suffering 'til death do you part. You've only left that alternative, period. But you've never had the guts to come out and say it explicitly. 

I want to hear your response as to what to do with all the faithful, sexless or sexually inadeaute marriages out there. Do you have the balls to come out and say it?


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

CatholicDad said:


> So JamesT what's ultimately your advice to men with wives who have decreased sex drive? If you advise them to stay away from the porn.. how do you propose they do that?
> 
> I think for every good ending like yours there is probably a bad ending where hubby retreats to porn and never "wins" his wife back. Do you agree?


I agree. You either choose porn or you choose a sexual relationship. Pick one. The porn is going to make the relationship suffer.

My advice is to stop the porn and re-focus all of that effort, energy, angst, and sexual frustration into building your relationship. It's amazing how motivating it can be. It's surprising how your wife will notice the increased attention, affection, and interest and it may even help her have more interest in you.

Many of these LD/HD mismatched threads end up talking about a woman's "responsive desire" and if I can dumb it down for guys, that means she's not interested in sex unless she's happy. So do what you can to create a happy environment. If she's unhappy, it's an uphill battle. Happy is downhill

Work on yourself. Lose weight, get in the gym, fix your crappy job. Whatever it is, do something to make yourself a winner and someone she'll respect and adore. It's a little thing and won't just "get you laid" directly but being a loser wallowing in self-pity running away to porn with other problems in your life is going to work against you and. Instead, being a confident man that has his stuff together is forward progress and it'll help. Have self resepect and pride in yourself if you don't.

And finally, if you're really in a dry spell talk to your wife. I know it's difficult to get the balls to do this (I was there) but it's really that easy. Just come out with it. It'll seem out of the blue to her, but so what? What do you have to lose? Don't complain but have a productive non-confrontational discussion with the woman who loves and adores you and let her know you'd like to get the passion back into your relationship. I said I miss the intimacy, flirting, and sex we used to have and want to get back to that. I said the relationship was starting to feel platonic and I "wanted my old girlfriend back." You might be surprised that she may want to hear this. Maybe you'll get something out of her that gives you something to work with. Maybe it'll open up a can of worm of complaints she has. If there are problems, get them into the open so you can address them and move on. Maybe she just wants to be heard or know you care? You could see a marriage counselor, but trying it yourself is cheaper. And it isn't going to get fixed with one discussion. It took us several conversations and a few "fights."

Know a woman that was complaining to me about how her sexless marriage and none of her attempts seem to work at getting him interested in anything other than occasional duty sex. Sounds familiar. I asked what he said when she talked to him about it. She didn't have an answer because she hadn't.
I can't help but think how less pissed off she'd be if she just told her husband that she wants to have sex more frequently and ask him what it'll take to get there.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

What would you have done if things didn't change after your talk? Assume that she tries to fix the problem, but the best she can ever achieve is "I don't really feel like sex, but I'll comply if you ask."


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Thanks for being willing to explain what went on @JamesTKirk

She sounds like a gem that just needed to understand a few things and she was willing to work at it once she did.

Communication.....


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

What exactly is this “pain in the vagina”?

I have had one for 50 years and this is the first time I’ve ever heard that. Sorry if I’ve been in a cage but that seems overwhelmingly vague to me. 


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Elizabeth001 said:


> What exactly is this “pain in the vagina”?
> 
> I have had one for 50 years and this is the first time I’ve ever heard that. Sorry if I’ve been in a cage but that seems overwhelmingly vague to me.
> 
> ...


I couldn't remember the name of it so I didn't mention the condition by name, but here's what the doctor diagnossed:

What is Lichen sclerosus?
Lichen sclerosus is a skin disorder that can cause itching, burning, pain during sex, and tears in the skin. The vulvar skin may appear thin, white, and crinkled. White bumps may be present with dark purple coloring. A steroid cream is used to treat lichen sclerosus.

Sex avoidance happened prior to diagnosis and after talking to her and revealing this issue of pain so I insisted see the doctor about it. She came back with this diagnosis and a steroid cream. And yes, I spent some time with a flashlight looking up her V on her behalf and indeed it is as described. The steroid cream worked but it also caused her clitoris to be completely desensitized and to this day, that doesn't seem to have totally come back years later. The poor girl just lost her mojo.

The cause of Lichen sclerosis is unknown as it is believed to be an autoimmune disorder but it's believed that low estrogen can cause it. A test result showed that she was vitamin D deficient (and had symptoms of D deficiency.) There is a relationship between D3 and estrogen but I don't totally understand it. D3 supplements, multivitamin, a few other supplements, and better micronutrients seemed to have reversed the problem.

While I'm sympathetic to the condition, I was a little frustrated that she get this bad without even seeking medical treatment, avoiding me, and letting me think it was something I did wrong. And she isn't the best at prioritizing her health so I had to stay on her about it.

She is still relatively dry down there even when highly aroused, so often use lubricant. She also appears to be entering menopause and now she's going through that but the sex life seems to be improving, maybe because she isn't having cycles.

Fortunately, intercourse is pretty good for both of us right now. Getting her warmed up is the hard part.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

JamesTKirk said:


> I couldn't remember the name of it so I didn't mention the condition by name, but here's what the doctor diagnossed:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for the clarification. 


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

JamesTKirk said:


> She is still relatively dry down there even when highly aroused, so often use lubricant. She also appears to be entering menopause


Replens is great product, it put PiV back on the menu for post menopausal her/us. (Additional good quality “sex” lube is still needed for us.)


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Well said JamesT. I agree. Stay away from porn.... It destroys men and marriage IMO.

RMY, like JamesTKirk I don't believe in the no win scenario (trekies know what I'm saying). I think turning to porn is always the wrong answer. I think divorce/annulment preferable to a sexless marriage. In sum, there really is no marriage, without sex. This is NOT to say that a man should abandon his wife when sick, either. I truly believe that men do not need porn or masturbation, that's all. The body takes care of itself via wet dreams TBH, and it sure does make you stronger AND more interested in finding out what's going on with your wife when she isn't available. Sex is the most powerful motivator and it sure jacks up a man's head when he's "taking care of himself"... sort of like robbing his dignity for a brief release.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Well said JamesT. I agree. Stay away from porn.... It destroys men and marriage IMO.
> 
> RMY, like JamesTKirk I don't believe in the no win scenario (trekies know what I'm saying). I think turning to porn is always the wrong answer. I think divorce/annulment preferable to a sexless marriage. In sum, there really is no marriage, without sex. This is NOT to say that a man should abandon his wife when sick, either. I truly believe that men do not need porn or masturbation, that's all. The body takes care of itself via wet dreams TBH, and it sure does make you stronger AND more interested in finding out what's going on with your wife when she isn't available. Sex is the most powerful motivator and it sure jacks up a man's head when he's "taking care of himself"... sort of like robbing his dignity for a brief release.


Thank you for the definitive statement. Of course while I respect your willingness to finally say divorce is preferable to a sexless marriage., that does contradict the faith you claim to adhere to so faithfully.


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## JamesTKirk (Sep 8, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Thank you for the definitive statement. Of course, while I respect your willingness to finally say divorce is preferable to a sexless marriage., that does contradict the faith you claim to adhere to so faithfully.


I know I don't take my marriage vows lightly. The better/worse sickness/health applies int he not-so-good end of that scale. I think it's our commitment as married spouses to exhaust all efforts to fix the problem before bailing.

But this is a predicament. The one thing that you can't get outside your marriage is sex. That is one thing. So it is our duty as a spouse to provide the sexual relationship the other desires. If my wife said she didn't want to have sex with me anymore, I'd say "Then why did you marry me if you don't want to have sex with me? And why did you commit to having sex with me throughout marriage?" If something broke to make her not want to do so, then surely that should be able to be fixed.

So if it was "no more sex and that isn't going to change" then I'd say she broke her commitment to her marriage to me and she has chosen to end it. She might say she doesn't want that, but that's' disingenuous. She doesn't want you, but she wants to keep you.

The problem is when she will say yes, but reluctantly. You get pushback but ultimately she'll do it. She's keeping up her end but discouraging it. For this, i don't have an answer.
I would say my course of action would be:
1) Talk to her. Get to the root of it. Find out why she doesn't want to do it. Is it libido, psychological issues, doesn't like it, past abuse, or she is no longer attracted to you. Maybe she doesn't feel loved anymore. It could be anything and it can be difficult to get a straight answer. In my case it took several discussions and a few fights but I think we're mostly on the same page. It's not ideal, but it's good right now.
2) If you can't get answers, insist on counseling. A third party intervention can help you both realize why you aren't meeting each other's needs. This would have been my next step if #1 had broken down with my wife.
3) Then there's the ultimatum. Either choose me, choose to love me, be the spouse I thought I had married, and be my sexual partner, or leave me. She has to decide if she wants to be married to you with all that it includes, or leave.

My wife was rather wishy washy about committing to a better sex life. In her view, having sex rarely was more than she needed. Like once a month. I don't get it, but women seem driven by hormones and feelings so if they don't feel like they want to have sex or feel sexy, then they don't seem to think they want it. Guys on the other hand sometimes think about sex, know they'll enjoy it, and want to do it not necessarily because they're horny, but because they know they'll enjoy it and be close to their woman. If my wife initiates and I'm tired, don't want to have sex, etc. I still gladly accept because despite all of that I know I'll enjoy it. It's an easy "yes" even though I don't "wan't" to. For a lot of women they have to want to in order to say yes, or it has to at least be on their radar. AKA "responsive desire."
I asked my wife what turns her on and she said "being happy." So I work on creating an environment she can be happy, I guess. I haven't really figured that out.

So back to my wishy washy wife. When I asked her to commit to trying to have sex more, she had trouble figuring out the answer. Maybe tried to get out of it? I don't know.

I asked her to give me a solution. She had trouble other than being more cooperative. So I suggested we just commit to a once-a-week date night where are together, talk, and just be with each other, and yes, have sex. This allowed us to get away from the excuses of everyday life standing in the way. And since my wife likes a glass of wine to loosen up before sex, that's our thing to share a bottle of wine. And we took it from there. After a while, things got better and I was able to suggest a back rub, foot rub, a glass of wine, and "a little fun" a second time in the week. Once or twice a week with no friction makes me very happy. Prior to this I was alwasy grumpy never knowing how she'd react to the next invitation or when I would be able to make that inviataion. "Yay, we had sex, do I have to wait three weeks go ask again?" and that wasn't happy. Now I don't really think about it. A good time once a week minimum, it's good, she's likes it, and I'm happy.

It solved a lot of problems. And one positive thing about this that she was mentally prepared and even seems to look forward to it. It wasn't really an out of the blue request from me on a day she was thinking "Shower, crappy TV, and bed early" only for me to come along and say "Hey baby, want some?" LOL.

By the way, the first talk was along the lines of telling her I wanted to have a productive conversation about our relationship (not accusing, not fighting, not complaining.) I told her I "miss her" and I miss how we used to be. I said something like "I want my old girlfriend back." Basically messaged asking her to help us reignite the excitement in our love and sex life as it had gotten dull and platonic. I leaned prety hard on telling her how much I love her and want to be closer to her as I figurted she'd like that. In that came there request to just have sex more regularly and asked her how we could make that happen. I figured she'd have to say yes or no, either way, I had something to go on.

But cracking open that conversion therapy is difficult. It's difficult to approach the topic without sounding like you're complaining about your spouse not being good enough for them.

So those are my suggestions. Get her attention and tell her how you feel and how you WANT to be with her. Figure out if there are problems. And see if she can commit to a weekly date night to start. Whatever your thing is, mine is Friday bottle of wine when the kid is asleep (unless there is schedule issue i which case Saturday night.) There is just no ambiguity. Also since I know that's coming, I don't obsess about it the rest of the week.

I'll also mid week offer massages which she knows means eventually sex. I mean not always and it doesn't' have to be that way, but there is asking her if she "wants a nice message" (sex) and there is "do you need me to rub your back" (no sex.) . If it's the "nice message" she puts on some sexy panties (for me) . for me gets naked, lies face down, lets me work on her whole body for a half hour, then when she's warmed up we have sex.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> The last two years leading up to this past December in terms of sex life, things hit rock bottom (In those 2 years or so I would say I had sex less than 10 times total). Since December we are probably averaging 10 times a month now. It is definitely possible to turn things around. However, it requires communication and two people who truly want to make each other happy. Unfortunately, it seems quite often (based on TAM, although I know there would undoubtedly be a bias since most people come here b/c of relationship problems) that one spouse / SO really has minimal interest in working together (or is looking to only do the bare minimum). In a case like that, if the relationship is going to continue, it typically limps along, with one person just settling for what little they can get.


If the two people genuinely love and care about their So's happiness, then this problem can be solved.

The HD needs to make it clear just how big a problem this is for the marriage.

The LD needs to acknowledge that there's a problem and work to improve it.

My belief is that the failure is usually on the HD for not making the magnitude of the problem clear.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> My belief is that the failure is usually on the HD for not making the magnitude of the problem clear.


My wife would agree. 

She said "I never knew what a big deal this was."

But I guarantee you I was quite unambiguous. No way anybody would not have known if they were listening. 

So I'm not inclined to agree. I don't know of any men for whom this was a big deal who didn't do their level best to communicate it. 

I understand that coming across as needy, whiny, demanding, or solely focused on sex will be a turn off and there's no doubt many if not most men in this position are guilty of one or more of the above. But that's still something entirely different from not communicating the magnitude of the discontent itself.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> If the two people genuinely love and care about their So's happiness, then this problem can be solved.
> 
> The HD needs to make it clear just how big a problem this is for the marriage.
> 
> The LD needs to acknowledge that there's a problem and work to improve it.


Agreed. I am fortunate in that respect with my W. 



Buddy400 said:


> My belief is that the failure is usually on the HD for not making the magnitude of the problem clear.


See, I would say yes and no, depending. I do believe that there are some who don't make it clear their needs (or downplay), and go solely on the basis that their SO should just "know". In a case like that than yes, you could blame the HD for not making it crystal clear. 

However, I do believe there are many situations where the HD does make it clear and the SO just doesn't get it (in situations where they are not being malicious about it or there or other more significant issues in the relationship). In my situation, I would say that earlier on I was the first person I describe above, where I would downplay the importance. In the last 4 years though, I have been forthcoming about the importance of a sex life, and with that things actually got worse lol. It is reasonable to think that you shouldn't have to threaten your SO that you will leave (or in my case tell her I no longer wanted to have sex with her anymore) for the message to be received.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> My belief is that the failure is usually on the HD for not making the magnitude of the problem clear.


I think in just as many cases the issue is the HD either not making it clear that they will end the relationship over this (if they would), or not being able to "pull the trigger' of ending the relationship when the LD makes it clear that they will not do anything close to what the HD needs for the relationship to remain viable.

I think there are many cases where the problem is a failure of communication. But I do not think that is anywhere near 100% of the cases. I think many cases involve a situation where there is zero overlap between what the LD can provide and what the HD needs, but one or both of them does not want to face that reality.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed. I am fortunate in that respect with my W.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree that the LD spouse usually has more than enough information to conclude that there is a problem that threatens the marriage and needs their attention.

However, the ability to avoid hearing what you don't want to hear is massive.

I was certain that (in a similar situation) my wife had full knowledge of how important something was to me. Yet, after the problem was finally resolved, she swore she had no idea.

So, the moral of the story is that it's needs be escalated beyond what one would think is necessary.

In your case, the words "I no longer feel a desire to have sex with you" is what finally woke her up.

Does she deny ever knowing prior to that moment the seriousness of the problem?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My wife would agree.
> 
> She said "I never knew what a big deal this was."
> 
> ...


But, she DID understand eventually.

So, what ever you did in the end could have been done sooner.

This is not to say that there wasn't a tremendous ability on the part of your wife to avoid hearing what she didn't want to hear.

I think a lot of men assume that, since any normal person would have known, their wife *must* know. 

I'm here to say that, oddly enough, that's not always true.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I am confident that my wife would claim I never made the problem clear enough. Despite 8 years of MC during which I kept repeating "I am tremendously unhappy about the lack of sex in our marriage". She didn't get the message until I stopped having sex with her and told her "I would rather never have sex with you than have sex as infrequently as we used to". Somehow, our marriage moving from very infrequent sex to literally sexless was a major eye opening event for her.

I could not have sent that message sooner, because I was not ready back then to embark upon a sexless life. What I could have done earlier was leave her.

For her, as a rape victim, sex was all about power and control. I doubt she is the only victim to feel that way.

Kudos to those of you who have recovered from rape and abuse and reclaimed your sexuality. Many victims remain trapped in their victimhood.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I agree that the LD spouse usually has more than enough information to conclude that there is a problem that threatens the marriage and needs their attention.
> 
> However, the ability to avoid hearing what you don't want to hear is massive.
> 
> ...


I don't think she views the seriousness or magnitude of the problem in the same way I do. When looking back, her mindset is more focused on all the reasons why we weren't having sex (tired, kids, etc...). In general though, that is her mindset in a lot of areas, not just sex,. and something that I am working with her to get her to change (i.e. stop looking for reasons not to do things, be more assertive, etc...). With sex, my mindset is "Why shouldn't we have sex?" where her's is more "Why should we have sex?". With her she definitely falls into what you and I have talked about with Responsive Desire, once we get started she is always enthusiastic and enjoys, so it becomes more about finding a way to bridge that gap.

Really, the big thing now which she keeps making clear, she does not want things to go back to how they were (and finally understands how important sex is as part of our overall relationship). Sucks we threw away so many years, but can't do anything about that, just make the most of things going forward.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> But, she DID understand eventually.
> 
> *So, what ever you did in the end could have been done sooner.*
> 
> ...


That may or may not be true. The recipient can also evolve to a point where they're willing to hear something that nothing would have made them willing to hear at an earlier point. That evolution may or may not be affected by anything the complainant could/did do. 

More than once, my wife has refused to hear something I've said, but bought into it rather quickly when exactly the same thing was said by another source.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

A women's ability to refuse to see things through a different perspective can be endless.

Direct quote as best as I can remember it a few years ago "It's funny how your sex drive has gotten higher just as mine is going away due to menopause."

Where the hell did that come from? One of those WTF moments. Took several more years before the final breakthrough...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> Does she deny ever knowing prior to that moment the seriousness of the problem?





anonmd said:


> A women's ability to refuse to see things through a different perspective can be endless.


 @Buddy400 - I am quoting @anonmd post b/c I think there is undoubtedly some truth to this (at least from my experience). So at this point things are significantly better, I laid everything out there and hopefully we (my wife and I, not you and I lol) are on the same page. There is still an aspect of things that isn't quite where I want it to be (which goes along with the below), but it is about compromise. 

Anyway, so last night I was giving myself my weekly HRT shot. My W knows that my drive usually jumps a bit after the shot, so she made a few jokes about how I will be rearing to have sex in a few minutes (I don't think she quite understands, usually the effects of the shot kick in over the following few days, not 10 minutes after, but hey, I will let her think that if it means putting sex on her mind lol). She then said not to worry, I just have to hold on for a few hours (i.e. until we get the kids to bed). So naturally I got excited, W is actually showing an interest (which was always part of the bigger issue), kids will go to bed and she will be ready to go. It won't all be on me to start something, or try to read the signs, all is good! W finally comes to bed, and as soon as she gets in bed and cuddles up with me I can tell that the only thing on her mind is going to sleep. I laid there with her for about 5 minutes so she could nod off, and then left to go downstairs and watch tv (she apologized for being tired, asked me to stay in bed with her, I could even watch tv and it wouldn't bother her, but I told her no, rather watch TV downstairs). This is exactly what I had told her in the past, that if she is not willing to follow though, to not make any sort of comments about us having sex. As of now this is just a one off since things got better, but it still shows an inability to see things from my perspective, even though we have talked about these exact moments.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

EllisRedding said:


> @Buddy400 - I am quoting @anonmd post b/c I think there is undoubtedly some truth to this (at least from my experience). So at this point things are significantly better, I laid everything out there and hopefully we (my wife and I, not you and I lol) are on the same page. There is still an aspect of things that isn't quite where I want it to be (which goes along with the below), but it is about compromise.
> 
> Anyway, so last night I was giving myself my weekly HRT shot. My W knows that my drive usually jumps a bit after the shot, so she made a few jokes about how I will be rearing to have sex in a few minutes (I don't think she quite understands, usually the effects of the shot kick in over the following few days, not 10 minutes after, but hey, I will let her think that if it means putting sex on her mind lol). She then said not to worry, I just have to hold on for a few hours (i.e. until we get the kids to bed). So naturally I got excited, W is actually showing an interest (which was always part of the bigger issue), kids will go to bed and she will be ready to go. It won't all be on me to start something, or try to read the signs, all is good! W finally comes to bed, and as soon as she gets in bed and cuddles up with me I can tell that the only thing on her mind is going to sleep. I laid there with her for about 5 minutes so she could nod off, and then left to go downstairs and watch tv (she apologized for being tired, asked me to stay in bed with her, I could even watch tv and it wouldn't bother her, but I told her no, rather watch TV downstairs). This is exactly what I had told her in the past, that if she is not willing to follow though, to not make any sort of comments about us having sex. As of now this is just a one off since things got better, but it still shows an inability to see things from my perspective, even though we have talked about these exact moments.


We used to have scheduled sex encounters... generally on the Sunday night every other week (I know, I know... I was dying by then)... but what did my wife do? Stayed up until 1 'o clock to watch TV and then claims she was too tired to have sex... sorry, honey, I was watching a film and it was so good I had to watch it until the end... now it's got very late and I'm tired... only a few years later I realised this was one of her tactics not have sex that weekend... silly me! :laugh: I really hated that...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Anyway, so last night I was giving myself my weekly HRT shot. My W knows that my drive usually jumps a bit after the shot, so she made a few jokes about how I will be rearing to have sex in a few minutes (I don't think she quite understands, usually the effects of the shot kick in over the following few days, not 10 minutes after, but hey, I will let her think that if it means putting sex on her mind lol). She then said not to worry, I just have to hold on for a few hours (i.e. until we get the kids to bed). So naturally I got excited, W is actually showing an interest (which was always part of the bigger issue), kids will go to bed and she will be ready to go. It won't all be on me to start something, or try to read the signs, all is good! W finally comes to bed, and as soon as she gets in bed and cuddles up with me I can tell that the only thing on her mind is going to sleep. I laid there with her for about 5 minutes so she could nod off, and then left to go downstairs and watch tv (she apologized for being tired, asked me to stay in bed with her, I could even watch tv and it wouldn't bother her, but I told her no, rather watch TV downstairs). This is exactly what I had told her in the past, that if she is not willing to follow though, to not make any sort of comments about us having sex. As of now this is just a one off since things got better, but it still shows an inability to see things from my perspective, even though we have talked about these exact moments.


I've been there.

It's hard to figure out what's going through their minds. ****

Did they forget what they said? Seems unlikely.

Did they think you'd forget? Unlikely.

If she felt too tired to follow through, wouldn't she say something along the lines of "Sorry baby, I was planning on having sex but I'm just SO tired, I can't follow through. I'm bummed that I said something and can't follow through. I promise I'll blow you in the morning, etc, etc".

I think it's likely that, had you initiated, she would have followed through. She probably took your lack of initiation as possibly you weren't still interested or that you weren't VERY interested. If it doesn't matter a lot to you, why should she make the effort? 

If you told your wife that you were going to buy tickets for a certain concert, how motivated to do it would you be if she seemed indifferent about it? What if she kept telling you about how excited she was about the possibility of going?

A significant element of a woman's sexual desire seems to be driven by her man's desire for her. If she promised sex; she came to bed and you didn't immediately turn to her and initiate; she's probably thinking "how badly can he need me sexually? maybe it's okay if I just go to sleep".

This is very hard for guys like us to deal with. We want to make our wives happy. But, at least in this case, the way to make our wife happy is to prioritize our own needs and we have a VERY hard time doing this.

It's similar to making a decision to go out to dinner. You'd think that, if you want your wife to be happy, you'd have her pick the restaurant. But, usually, she'll be happiest if YOU make the choice (plus it's some sort of dominant guy thing in her mind). Then, she's happy because she's making you happy. 

By making sure that she never has to go out of her way to please you, you're making sure that she never gets the satisfaction of going out of her way to please you.

I have a very hard time dealing with this myself.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I've been there.
> 
> It's hard to figure out what's going through their minds. ****
> 
> ...


Spot on Buddy. If she had never brought it up at all yesterday, and then was ready to go to bed, no big deal. 

The first bolded is really my line of thinking. She knows full well, especially with the HRT, that my libido is charged (heck, that was the whole point of her comments in the first place). All she had to do was a simple "I am sorry, I am just too tired tonight, but I will make it up to you tomorrow". That's it, I would have been ok with and stayed in bed with her. It is the idea that maybe if she just stayed silent, doesn't give off any "sex vibes", hopefully I will forget. 

It is one of those things as well that I don't want to jump to conclusions or sabotage anything. I am not going to be upset each time we don't have sex or she is too tired. What I want to do though is to make sure I get out in front of things if they start to go off the rails (but as I am sure you can understand, I don't want to keep having the same exact conversation over and over). There have been a few other things, that although minor, have come up (that combined with what happened last night) have me a little cautious (things reverting closer to how they were in the past). For now, I will just leave it at talking to her about why I was frustrated last night, and hopefully that will be enough (at least short term) to remind her about all the things we talked about and were supposed to be working on. 

There has gotta be an easier way lol!!! It does make it easier being able to talk to people here who can relate, so thanks for that @Buddy400


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

My opinion, you need to be honest with her. Both talking about why you were frustrated and revealing that her thinking that sticking the needle in means you are horny ten minutes later is off base as well. Stop playing mental games. Makes it hard to figure out who's misconceptions are bigger...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

anonmd said:


> My opinion, you need to be honest with her. Both talking about why you were frustrated and revealing that her thinking that sticking the needle in means you are horny ten minutes later is off base as well. Stop playing mental games. Makes it hard to figure out who's misconceptions are bigger...


Not sure I follow, what mental games? This just happened last night and I plan on talking to her about it tonight when I get home (the 10 minute needle thing she knew was a joke)


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

She was joking, you said you don't think she understands that it actually takes a few days and were keeping that to yourself. Thinking you know how she is thinking but not saying anything because in this particular case it might be helpful to your goal of having more sex is a mental game. Who's on first?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

anonmd said:


> She was joking, you said you don't think she understands that it actually takes a few days and were keeping that to yourself. Thinking you know how she is thinking but not saying anything because in this particular case it might be helpful to your goal of having more sex is a mental game. Who's on first?


Sorry, was just being sarcastic in that post. After she mentioned I told her the shot didn't kick in that quick. She already knows that the first few days after my shot is when it hits me the most (which is why she started the conversation)

To clarify, a) no I did not tell her or lead her to believe that we needed to have sex ASAP b/c I was giving myself an injection, b) she was the one who brought up sex and that I would essentially get taken care of in a few hours, otherwise I would have gone happily on my way with no sex that night and c) I don't really know what this has to do with the main point lol.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

I think people sometimes confuse the lack of sex drive in their partner with some external factor... I rarely see people actually look at themselves and ask themselves "Am I a person that generates sexual desire?"

For a large part of my marriage my wife would have been categorized as low sex drive. I didn't change our communication... I decided to be a better man for myself. I packed on muscle, got fit, improved my mind and body overall and now my wife wants it more than I can give it to her.



If you walked down a runway in under wears, would ladies bid to spend the night with you? If the answer is no... then maybe you hit the jackpot as to why your wife is low sex drive. At least that is why mine was


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Steve2.0 said:


> I think people sometimes confuse the lack of sex drive in their partner with some external factor... I rarely see people actually look at themselves and ask themselves "Am I a person that generates sexual desire?"
> 
> For a large part of my marriage my wife would have been categorized as low sex drive. I didn't change our communication... I decided to be a better man for myself. I packed on muscle, got fit, improved my mind and body overall and now my wife wants it more than I can give it to her.
> 
> ...


There are some men who are going to get really fit and their woman still won’t want sex with them.

But there are some who would see quite a difference.

And there are women who tell men it won’t make a difference when actually it would. She may not know it will until you do it.

To me, if it’s not worth losing your gut and adding some muscle for you to find out if your wife will want you more, then you probably don’t really want it that bad.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Steve2.0 said:


> I think people sometimes confuse the lack of sex drive in their partner with some external factor... I rarely see people actually look at themselves and ask themselves "Am I a person that generates sexual desire?"
> 
> For a large part of my marriage my wife would have been categorized as low sex drive. I didn't change our communication... I decided to be a better man for myself. I packed on muscle, got fit, improved my mind and body overall and now my wife wants it more than I can give it to her.
> 
> ...


Some good stuff here!


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> To me, if it’s not worth losing your gut and adding some muscle for you to find out if your wife will want you more, then you probably don’t really want it that bad.


I agree... Its not worth it for your partner. Its worth it for yourself. A better life awaits


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I don't think she views the seriousness or magnitude of the problem in the same way I do. When looking back, her mindset is more focused on all the reasons why we weren't having sex (tired, kids, etc...). In general though, that is her mindset in a lot of areas, not just sex,. and something that I am working with her to get her to change (i.e. stop looking for reasons not to do things, be more assertive, etc...). With sex, my mindset is "Why shouldn't we have sex?" where her's is more "Why should we have sex?". With her she definitely falls into what you and I have talked about with Responsive Desire, once we get started she is always enthusiastic and enjoys, so it becomes more about finding a way to bridge that gap.
> 
> *Really, the big thing now which she keeps making clear, she does not want things to go back to how they were (and finally understands how important sex is as part of our overall relationship). *Sucks we threw away so many years, but can't do anything about that, just make the most of things going forward.


Yes sucks. But bolded sounds pretty awesome to me! Sounds like it doesn't always sound pretty awesome to you. And I feel that sucks too. Not like -- you suck and shouldn't feel that way -- but it sucks that you can't have everything you want. Cuz you know me, I want that for you!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Steve2.0 said:


> I agree... Its not worth it for your partner. Its worth it for yourself. A better life awaits


Right. And pretty much any partner in your future, whether she cops to it or not, is going to want to see you fit continuously.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Steve2.0 said:


> I think people sometimes confuse the lack of sex drive in their partner with some external factor... I rarely see people actually look at themselves and ask themselves "Am I a person that generates sexual desire?"
> ...
> If you walked down a runway in under wears, would ladies bid to spend the night with you? If the answer is no... then maybe you hit the jackpot as to why your wife is low sex drive. At least that is why mine was


There's two separate issues:

1. Lack of desire
2. Lack of desire for you

If a woman has no desire for sex at all, that's not the same thing as a woman who doesn't want sex with her husband because he's a slob. Men are generally different in that even if they don't want sex with their wife, they still want sex. The women's drop in libido is often a drop in her total libido. It's not that her desire to her husband drops but her desire for other people remains high. Her desire for sex in general declines and she doesn't want it from her husband, doesn't masturbate, and doesn't fantasize about sex with other people.

If a man is in a low-sex marriage, certainly he should tackle the easy and simple issues like improve his appearance and be a better provider. In some cases that will fix the situation. But when it doesn't seem to help, then doing these superficial things may not matter. It may be necessary to instead dig deeper into the emotional disconnect instead of packing on more muscle.

A man's drive is generally like hunger. He will always be hungry. Even if he doesn't like a certain kind of food, his hunger won't magically go away. He'll still be hungry and get food somehow.

A woman's drive might be more like how we enjoy music. Even if we really like a band or genre of music, we may eventually get bored of it. Sometime listening to a different genre will help, but sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes we just get bored of music in general or our enjoyment of it is never as passionate as it once was.

Since this issue comes up so often on TAM, I think it's important to figure out which of the two situations is happening so we know which approach to take.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

wilson said:


> If a woman has no desire for sex at all, that's not the same thing as a woman who doesn't want sex with her husband because he's a slob.


Are you male or female? Just want to know if your speaking from personal experience (internal) or listening to what your wife tells you.

I've seen a lot of women who 'have no sexual desire' suddenly get hot and start fanning their face with a paper plate when some hotty rolls around. But I can definitely see your statement being true when she is surrounded by unattractive dad-bods at a local YMCA


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Steve2.0 said:


> Are you male or female? Just want to know if your speaking from personal experience (internal) or listening to what your wife tells you.
> 
> I've seen a lot of women who 'have no sexual desire' suddenly get hot and start fanning their face with a paper plate when some hotty rolls around. But I can definitely see your statement being true when she is surrounded by unattractive dad-bods at a local YMCA



From personal experience and from many of the stories here. And even in your example, it's someone *new* that is creating that desire. In many of the stories here, it does't matter how buff a guy is, how good a provider he is, etc.. His wife doesn't want him, doesn't crave other guys, doesn't masturbate, or seem to have much of interest in anything sexual at all. Even if some hottie can swoop into her life and revive her interest, that may not relate for her husband of 10+ years who's the father of her kids. She wants a new hottie, not the husband she has no matter how hot he gets.

I totally agree that a husband can effectively kill her desire by being a slob, being disrespectful, loading her life with stress, etc. The H should take an honest look at himself and change any of those negative behaviors which legitimately will reduce desire. But if it's not that kind of loss of desire, then he needs to look deeper to see where the disconnect is happening and figure out how to fix that.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Yes sucks. But bolded sounds pretty awesome to me! Sounds like it doesn't always sound pretty awesome to you. And I feel that sucks too. Not like -- you suck and shouldn't feel that way -- but it sucks that you can't have everything you want. Cuz you know me, I want that for you!


Talk talk talk. It is something that when we do actually do, we both do a good job listening to each other. Simple thing, but something we just don't do enough (getting better at though)


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Talk talk talk. It is something that when we do actually do, we both do a good job listening to each other. Simple thing, but something we just don't do enough (getting better at though)


25 year in we can often find ourselves in that position.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Steve2.0 said:


> Are you male or female? Just want to know if your speaking from personal experience (internal) or listening to what your wife tells you.
> 
> I've seen a lot of women who 'have no sexual desire' suddenly get hot and start fanning their face with a paper plate when some hotty rolls around. But I can definitely see your statement being true when she is surrounded by unattractive dad-bods at a local YMCA


Word...


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## MRS.SEXYTAZ (May 10, 2019)

Hi James Tkirk,

Thanks so much for sharing your story . Iam living that story as we speak and praying for my Marriage to strive through this storm ...... I am so glad you and your wife found a common ground to work on y'all relationship and marriage. 

My wishes an prayers that y'all continue to have a strong relationship and marriage .😇


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