# A cheater's perspective - 4 weeks past D-Day



## Barnowl

May 6, 2012 is a day that my wife, my family, and myself will remember for the rest of our lives. It is the day that my wife of 6 years discovered that I had been cheating on her. 

This isn't an easy topic to talk about, and I have been lurking on this site for the past few weeks reading posts and perpectives in an attempt to be a better husband, and help fuel the fire to reconcile with my wife. 

My wife discovered emails between myself and three women. It took me about 4 days, but the full truth of my actions finally came out to her. I had an emotional affair that lasted three years. We had become friends, and she was someone that I spoke to often. In addition to that, I had two other physical affairs. I will not go into my "justifications" for the affairs. I understand that what I did was a choice, and I am now making every attempt possible to make amends with my wife.

I have sent a no contact email to the EA woman, and I have since deleted the email account. My wife and I confronted one of the PA women as well. That was an experience I will never forget...and one that gives me an immense amount of respect for my wife in the way that she handled herself in front of the OW. 

We have been going to marriage counseling, and my wife has begun seeing a counselor of her own. We are trying a separation. I have helped my wife find and pay for an apartment, and she will be moving out this weekend.

I don't really know what this thread will produce, but I am hoping to learn from other's mistakes, and learn from other's experiences in reconciliation. My wife has not flat out told me that she will not reconcile, but there has been no clear indication that she will reconcile either. I have done everything I was supposed to do in the newbie posts. We now have full transparency, I have implemented no contact with the OW, I am exceedingly remorseful, I am being supportive for her in every way possible.

Long story short is that this experience is like hitting the bottom of a bungie cord, and I feel like I have been snapped up back into reality. The realization that I could lose my wife has given me the motivation I need to set myself straight and do whatever I can to reconcile. 

Any input, advice, or scolding remarks you would like to make, I will happily hear and attempt to act on in order to rebuild my marriage.


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## jerry123

I would like to know, if she had not found out would you still be doing it? Or was there guilt on your part and was thinking of telling her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Barnowl

Being completely honest with myself, yes I would probably still be talking to the OW. I had extreme guilt, but it was easy to justify to myself due to ongoing issues in my marriage. I realize now that my justifications were unfounded. 

She actually found out at an interesting time... I had been talking to the EA woman about the fact that I was cutting things off between us in order to talk to my wife about the issues in our marriage. I wanted to give my marriage an honest try, and I knew that I couldn't when I was emailing another woman every day. Her finding out was the best thing that ever happened to me because it forced me to see my actions in light of what it was doing to my wife and me. I am happy that she found out and I am no longer acting in an unfaithful way, but the aftermath is something I know will last for a very long time...


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## MattMatt

I wish both of you all the best for your futures.


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## Complexity

Were the physical affairs long term as well or just one offs?


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## Hope1964

If you cheated, why is she moving out?


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## Barnowl

Hope1964 said:


> If you cheated, why is she moving out?


Seriously right?! 

The EA started as a one time PA that morphed into long term communication. There was another one-time PA three years ago, and then at the beginning of this year I was physical with another woman. I feel like a complete pig when I say that, and I can't imagine that it was me now that everything is in the open. Funny how reality does that to us...

My wife decided she needs to move out and be on her own. We were highschool sweethearts, married young, and she has relied on me for years. She feels that being on her own is her only defense against being hurt again, and she wants to know that she can do it on her own. Also, we have 5 animals, and didn't want to be in the house alone taking care of everything, so I told her I would keep the house at home as a place for her to return when she is ready. The move is this saturday.


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## Hope1964

Well, I am glad you feel like a complete pig. I am also glad you're doing everything you're supposed to. I hope you continue to do so, and know that for years this will have adverse effects on your marriage. If she decides to stay with you. If she doesn't, then learn from it, and DON'T CHEAT AGAIN EVER!!!!!


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## Tall Average Guy

Go to counseling for yourself. You clearly have some issues that you need to work through. Start that processing of making yourself a better person.


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## OhGeesh

It's going to take so much longer than you think for things to get back to normal or better than normal.

I won't say it's good she found out because I think it's better not to know. 

Best of luck on the long journey the both of you are about to embark on!!


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## survivorwife

Barnowl said:


> Seriously right?!
> 
> The EA started as a one time PA that morphed into long term communication. There was another one-time PA three years ago, and then at the beginning of this year I was physical with another woman. I feel like a complete pig when I say that, and I can't imagine that it was me now that everything is in the open. Funny how reality does that to us...
> 
> My wife decided she needs to move out and be on her own. We were highschool sweethearts, married young, and she has relied on me for years. She feels that being on her own is her only defense against being hurt again, and she wants to know that she can do it on her own. Also, we have 5 animals, and didn't want to be in the house alone taking care of everything, so I told her I would keep the house at home as a place for her to return when she is ready. The move is this saturday.


Are you REALLY being truthful here? You cheated, she wants to "be on her own". Maybe have some time without you to think about what she wants? So, she inconveniences herself by arranging to move out of her own home instead of YOU, the cheater moving out?

You see, my husband is a cheater. And he refused to leave the marital home. I wanted to be alone. To think. To get away from him. So, I had to leave in order to find peace within myself. If he had not refused to leave, I would have more than happy to stay in my own home, since I did nothing wrong.

Care to elaborate some more to convince me that this is truly what SHE wants, and there was not a bit of territorial dominance at play?


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## tacoma

survivorwife said:


> Care to elaborate some more to convince me that this is truly what SHE wants, and there was not a bit of territorial dominance at play?


I don`t see why it`s so hard to believe, I`ve walked out on cheaters rather than deal with the BS of arguing over who stays and whose stuff is whose.

It`s easier to leave than to stay.

Feels a lot more satisfying too.


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## Houstondad

I wonder if any cheaters on here could relate to another cheater who moved away? Are cheaters that wrapped up with themselves that they define themselves as selfish? My STBXW had an affair, struggled mightily to end it calling it a drug at one point while in tears. Did the whole blame game on me while I tried to be a better husband and improve on those faults. Never worked. She moved to start another life eventally with an OM (not the original one because that ended in a fiery death). Could a cheater feel so much guilt that they feel reconciliation is impossible?


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## PBear

HD, I'm not sure about feeling so much guilt that they feel reconciliation is impossible. But in my case, I recognized that my marriage was so broken that I didn't feel reconciliation was worth trying. Not sure if that helps answer your question or not...

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sigma1299

From one cheater to another - if you haven't - read this...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/38890-article-cheaters-how-rebuild-trust.html


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## survivorwife

tacoma said:


> I don`t see why it`s so hard to believe, I`ve walked out on cheaters rather than deal with the BS of arguing over who stays and whose stuff is whose.
> 
> It`s easier to leave than to stay.
> 
> Feels a lot more satisfying too.


I hear ya! 

But in this case, he got caught and is now trying to salvage his marriage. So I'm wondering if they had the conversation where she wanted to throw him out, and he instead insisted on standing his ground and staying put, which resulted in HER leaving.

I'm not clear on the dynamics of this situation, but I am crystal clear on my own. And yes, I am satisfied with my own results.


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## Acabado

What are the rules of this separation?
Are you still going to MC?
Does your BW want to date?
Do you have a plan to win her back?
Read some book about EAs.


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## frozen

suziq239 said:


> I now exactly why she moved out. Dear cheater, she wants to sow her own oats. Ill bet since the two of you have been together since kids, she has never had any of the variety of experiences that happen in your early twenties.
> 
> Be prepared - she moved out to have these experiences since your infidelity has given her a hall pass.
> 
> In many ways you deserve it and have no right to pass judgement on her. however, it may cause irrepairable damage to you if you let it. continue to be respectful and remorseful.


Barnowl,

There are many sayings about the results from hasty decisionmaking... Time is what is needed to gain clarity when used for the right purpose. 

Separation is not what is needed for reconciliation. In times of anger and frustration and deep hurt you will need to be there to listen to your wife express her feelings of pain. You will need to be there to empathize and to let her know how sorry you are for your actions and the hurt it caused. You will not be able to do this being apart.

Your wife is likely thinking of doing as suziq239 suggests. This is a very understandable reaction and she probably believes it will help to relieve her pain. But there is no way this separation can bring you together and heal the disconnection you both feel. 

You didn't mention if you discussed this with your marriage counselor and what their position was. If they are not trying to stop this move you need to get a new one immediately. Find a specialist in Emotionally Focused Therapy or Imago so you and your wife can begin to truly empathise and fulfill the needs of each other.

Give her whatever space she needs, be a shadow when she wants, but be there. You are a couple, and the endgame is to be there for each other. The benefits you can both acheive as individuals learning to cope with the hurt of this is quite immeasurable. There is so much you can do to rebuild trust and love but you and your wife must make the right decisions along the way. So much bad can occur from the physical separation you are planning so please avoid it at all costs. 

Tomorrow's move may truly be the beginning of the end. Go buy John Gottman's Seven Secrets of a Successful Marriage and read it today. You need the best counseling available your futures are worth it.

You will only be able to acheive healing if you both turn to each other when you are feeling pain. When one spouse turns away from the other, a very natural reaction to painful feelings, both parties suffer. Be there and recognize when she is feeling crushed and offer your sympathy. Encourage her to talk about how badly she feels. And for God's sake do not ever blame her. This is not about logic and reason it's about how you both feel and learning to be there for each other and understand the reasons why we feel the way we do. By understanding your own triggers to emotional flooding and pain you may gain insight into her triggers as well and how your actions contribute to her disconnection.

Best of Luck!


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## Rowan

Unlike some others here, I think it's possible that your wife - when confronted with the knowledge that you've had sex with three other women during your marriage, one of whom then turned into a LT EA - simply feels an urgent need to be as far away from you as possible. I'm pretty sure if my H's EA had turned out to actually be three separate cases of cheating, I'd have simply left. Let him deal with the house, let him cook meals for himself and shop for himself and wash his own clothes. I sure as hell wouldn't do all that for a man who hadn't just cheated once, but _three separate times_. Then again, she may just be out looking to pay you back. We can't know what's in her mind. 

So, my advice would be to help your wife do whatever she feels she needs to do to find peace. If that's get away from you, help her move. If that's go to MC and/or IC, then go. If it's a no contact letter to all three women, write them. Since you are what I would consider a serial cheater, please understand that not a lot of spouses would even think about granting you yet another opportunity with them. If you want to reconcile, then you have to convince her that you are worth her grace in granting you another chance.

I would, however, take the time to sit with her and discuss the rules governing this separation. Will the two of you date? Is sex between you two on or off the table? Is dating others during this separation ok or not? 

You should also be prepared to learn that what you're calling a separation, she intends as the first step in the divorce.


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## MEM2020

Barn,
The best thing to do - the fairest thing to do - is alas the hardest thing to do. And that basically goes like this: You fully accept that it will be a while before she even knows what she wants to do. And in the meantime you tell her:
- YOU need to be your highest priority now (meaning she is her highest priority now)
- And you (she) will be my (your) highest priority when you need me to be. That means if you wake up middle of the night and can't sleep, you are welcome to call me. 

In the meantime I understand that not knowing what you will ultimately decide is my burden to bear for causing this situation. Because of that, I am not going to ask you "if you are ready to forigive me, or think that you will someday". For now the best way for me to show genuine remorse is to limit myself to answering your questions, and listen when you want a supportive ear. 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That is the "now" part of this. If she does get to the point where she wants to reconcile, you need to be man enough to honestly discuss what YOU believe a healthy marriage requires. What you need to do, to be fair to BOTH of you, is recognize that you have two completely separate responsibilities:
1. Help her heal as best you can. Regardless of what she did or did not do as a wife, you did not address it directly. Instead you got your marital needs met in a very deceptive manner. 

2. You have a responsibility to both of you - to honestly define what a healthy, loving marriage is. And that means reconciliation cannot be a one sided, lifetime commitment of unconditional surrender of your needs. That won't work for either of you. You CANNOT bring up her failings as a wife before she makes a decision on reconciliation. And yet if she wants to reconcile you MUST tell her what YOUR marital needs and expectations are. The hardest part of that will be anything having to do with core aspects of how she treats you (respect, consideration, admiration, sex - WHATEVER was broken needs to be addressed). A decent man will say: For us to have a long term happy marriage, that part of the relationship needs to be "insert your definition here". I understand that you likely will want/need time to find out whether that is something you will feel good about. And I am willing to give us at least a (year?) to find out. If ultimately you are unable to forgive me to the degree needed for that part of our marriage to work for BOTH of us, we can part ways knowing we gave it our best shot. 

The reason that (2) is critical for both of you, is she will never sleep well unless you get to the point where you can regularly look her in the eye and say "you are a good wife, and I am very glad to be with you". The hardest part of 2 is going to be "The Talk". That's the one where your spouse elects to view the marriage as solely about themself. Thats the one where they say "great, so if I don't fvck you whenever you want, you are going to do what - cheat again - divorce me"? And thats the one where you have the balls to ask HER some hard questions accepting that the answers may be that she walks away: "Do you really want to resume a marriage in a manner that you know leaves me feeling unimportant and unloved"?

A reconcilliation based on the idea that your breach means you have no rights, needs or consideration on an open ended basis is not a reconcilliation. A real R is based on both partners forgiving and COMMITTING to making a good faith effort to understand and meet each others needs. Right now you likely feel guilty enough that you aren't feeling resentment over whatever her part in this mess was. That won't last if you try to R UNLESS you address and resolve whatever it was that you felt was broken about how she interacted with you. 




Barnowl said:


> Seriously right?!
> 
> The EA started as a one time PA that morphed into long term communication. There was another one-time PA three years ago, and then at the beginning of this year I was physical with another woman. I feel like a complete pig when I say that, and I can't imagine that it was me now that everything is in the open. Funny how reality does that to us...
> 
> My wife decided she needs to move out and be on her own. We were highschool sweethearts, married young, and she has relied on me for years. She feels that being on her own is her only defense against being hurt again, and she wants to know that she can do it on her own. Also, we have 5 animals, and didn't want to be in the house alone taking care of everything, so I told her I would keep the house at home as a place for her to return when she is ready. The move is this saturday.


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## Houstondad

PBear said:


> HD, I'm not sure about feeling so much guilt that they feel reconciliation is impossible. But in my case, I recognized that my marriage was so broken that I didn't feel reconciliation was worth trying. Not sure if that helps answer your question or not...
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If broken, you mean before the affair then I can say no. Unfortunately, she (and possibly with the help from the OM) convinced herself that it was already broken. The reality is that it was far from broken. Sure there were things that needed work and improvements, but all relationships are like this. My STBXW felt it wasn't worth trying which I find appalling because she had so much to lose (family, kids, and quite frankly a damn good husband who cared). It may be a combination of the irrational convincing that the marriage was bad and how much she hurt me and ultimately the kids.


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## Barnowl

There has been quite a bit of action in my absense. I took Friday off work, and I try to avoid the computer over the weekend if I can help it, so here we are for a Monday update. I will try to answer a few of the questions that have come up in the previous posts.

1. Why did she move out rather than me? Our house was too overwhelming for her to take care of on her own. She wanted her own space to learn some independence in. I helped her choose a safe place. I paid for her first month's rent, and then as weird as it sounds, I helped her move in a set the place up...Even through everything, and her desire for independence, we are still very connected. I want to help her in anyway possible, and make this easy on her, so I did what I could to ease the burden of the move.

2. What are the rules of the separation? We decided that we can date other people, but neither of us are wanting to right at this moment. She told me that she wants me to court her, and date her. We went on our "first date" last night, and it was amazing! We had a wonderful time. Other rules of the separation include sleepovers being ok at her place or mine, and she has given me a key to the apartment. Now this is all brand new, so it might change dramatically....but it would seem that the apartment is going to provide a sort of break from reality. A break from the life we shared that I destroyed, and provide a new neutral zone for us to reconnect in.

3. Are we going to MC? Yes. We have another appointment on Wendesday. Our counseling sessions have been pretty good so far, and I think it is helping. I have also been reading books and online postings like crazy in order to gain perspective and lear what I need to be doing to help this situation.

Last night my wife told me that she feels like our marriage is meaningless to her now. I asked if she would want a divorce, and a brand new marriage if we can reconnect, and she said No, that is a waste of money. We will be renewing wedding vows if we can manage to make this work. She does not subscribe to the word "reconciliation." There is no reconciling our marriage...at this point the best I can hope for is a new connection between us that is based on the love we have shared for so many years. Maybe we will make it, and maybe we won't. I had a good night last night with her, and I am feeling very hopeful and excited at the prospect of dating my wife, and building a new relationship with her. 

At this point, my plan to win her back is really going to depend a lot on how much effort I put into courting her. I know she loves me. She still tells me she loves me, but she is not going to move past what I have done to our marriage without me making some serious effort to show her that she is the only woman for me. If we stay married, then I have this feeling that it is going to be the most amazing bond possible. That all of the isues we have been dealing with the past few years in our marriage that I used to justify stepping out will disolve, and we will be good. Maybe that is just a "cheaters perspective" and reality will be hitting me in the face...who knows. I just can't imagine my life without her, and I want to do anything I can to keep her in my life.


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## sigma1299

Your wife is right about the word reconciliation. The marriage you had is dead and gone. The marriage that lies ahead can be better, worse or over - it's up to the two of you. 

While personally I'm not a fan of the separation and especially the rules of yours - it sounds like it's working. You do recognize that the rule about dating others is exit door for you right? It's a way of telling you, "ok, you want another woman? Go get her." If you exercise this supposed "rule" you will exit the marriage. I don't care what has been agreed between you - it's a test - don't fail. 

So did you read that thread I linked? Follow the advice and guidance in it.


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## Machiavelli

Houstondad said:


> Could a cheater feel so much guilt that they feel reconciliation is impossible?


Probably not if they're male. Now women, especially those who imagine themselves to be Christian, really will get toxic guilt. Not only will they refuse to reconcile over the guilt, they'll go off the deep end. The extremely deep end. I suppose that's to completely sear their conscience. Seen it plenty in church.


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## morituri

Barnowl said:


> 2. What are the rules of the separation? We decided that we can date other people


Did the two of you clearly define what the rules of 'dating other people' were going to be? You may not want to date other women but your wife's self-esteem took a devastating blow with your serial cheating and she may be vulnerable to the attentions of other men. Remember that both of you insisted on you ending all contact with the women you had your affairs with, and *IF* she has an affair of her own, then she's going to have to get serious and decide to either end her affair or end the marriage. There is no free hall pass unless the two of you agreed that she can have one.


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## Hope1964

Other than the 'dating other people' thing, that sounds good to me.

When I kicked my husband out, the way it happened he could have taken it that he had permission to 'date other people', but he chose not to. If he had, we wouldn't be together today.


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## Barnowl

Sigma - I did read that link. Thank you.

Morituri - My wife is certainly in "Hall Pass Mode." I wasn't going to bring this up, but this is a good enough segway. The first week after D-Day, she started texting many friends who were helping her cope with what I had done to our marriage. One of these friends just happens to be a great looking single guy who is "So nice" and "Just a friend". They text every day, they text into the evenings, and she has been hanging out with him. Of course this makes me insanely jealous, but she is her own woman who can make her own decisions. We both talked about her going out and having her own sexual experiences, and as hard as it was to talk about, that might just be a reality. At this point, what she and the other guy have going could easily (and in my opinion already is) become and emotional relationship. I don't know that they share enough compatibility for them to actually date and my wife leave me for him, but the knowledge that they might become intimate is certainly on my mind.

Honestly, sex was the major problem in our marriage. She never initiates it, and a few years ago we went 6 months with no intimate physical contact at all. (In my opinion, from the cheaters perspective) That is what I used to justify my actions. Should I have left her, probably. Was cheating a bad decision, most definitely. I just couldn't leave her though...

If she has sex with someone else, then that is something I will deal with at that time. Being a stupid jealous male, I may be inclined to try to hit the guy in the face, but that is a bridge I will cross when I come to it. 

As odd as it sounds, this situation has actually jump started my wife's libido. We have been fairly active in the past month since D-Day. That is a concern because now I know that she could be ready and willing for another man...but, that doesn't stop me from wanting to allow her to be intimate with me as much as she is comfortable with.

This entire situation is unpredictable at best. It could literally become the unraveling of my entire life, or it could lead to the most amazing connection possible with a woman that I have loved since I was in junior high. Is it weird for me to want her to have her own sexual experiences? For her to have thoughts and memories the same as I do now? I think that would help her. Maybe she would find someone better, maybe she would leave me...or maybe she would see that sex is sex, and she would still want to be with me in the end.

I honestly have no idea at this point. It is moment to moment...


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## Almostrecovered

I hate to say this but I think the main impetus of the separation is not the independence and finding herself line she is feeding you 

I think she wants the guilt free freedom to revenge cheat 

It's one thing to not be able to handle the R and separate or D and go out and date (I'd be all for that for her) but it's quite another to date while under the pretense of R. It wasn't right when you cheated and it isn't right for her to date while trying to R

I honestly don't think this will work out if she dates, in fact the way you describe the texting with the single guy sounds like she is already in an EA. The problem of course is that you have no moral ground to stop her, but if you truly want to stay married I would appeal to her sense of how hurtful it was for her.


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## Almostrecovered

to add, do you think deep down that if she dates then it will alleviate the severity of your cheating and the guilt associated with it?

it won't


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## Hope1964

Almostrecovered said:


> to add, do you think deep down that if she dates then it will alleviate the severity of your cheating and the guilt associated with it?
> 
> it won't


:iagree: 

If you guys are committing to R then there can be NO 'dating other people' happening. By either of you.


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## Barnowl

There is no R in our marriage. She made it very clear that we are not working toward reconciliation. In fact, she rejects that word altogether. 

This is starting from the ground floor. I told her I think that she has an EA going with the other man, and you are right that I have no moral grounds to stop it. 

If she slept with someone else, even for revenge, I wouldn't call it cheating at this point. There is no marriage to cheat on. The best I can hope is that she doesn't fall in love with someone else, and perhaps we can bring a union back together with just she and I in the end...

To your last comment, I don't think ANYTHING will alleviate the severity of my cheating. In fact, at times I am afraid of our future life together because I know that this will change the rest of our lives. Together or separated in the end, this situation that I have put us in will change the course of both of our lives forevor.


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## sigma1299

Barnowl said:


> There is no R in our marriage. She made it very clear that we are not working toward reconciliation. In fact, she rejects that word altogether.
> 
> This is starting from the ground floor. I told her I think that she has an EA going with the other man, and you are right that I have no moral grounds to stop it.
> 
> If she slept with someone else, even for revenge, I wouldn't call it cheating at this point. There is no marriage to cheat on. The best I can hope is that she doesn't fall in love with someone else, and perhaps we can bring a union back together with just she and I in the end...
> 
> To your last comment, I don't think ANYTHING will alleviate the severity of my cheating. In fact, at times I am afraid of our future life together because I know that this will change the rest of our lives. Together or separated in the end, this situation that I have put us in will change the course of both of our lives forevor.


This is all semantics. Being married is like being pregnant - you either are - are you aren't. YOU AND SHE ARE!! Either divorce and then she can date or she needs to come home and work on the marriage. If she really wants to divorce and see if she would choose to marry you again then she needs to divorce you and really try it on. This middle ground is in reality cake eating.


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## Almostrecovered

Barnowl said:


> There is no R in our marriage. She made it very clear that we are not working toward reconciliation. In fact, she rejects that word altogether.
> 
> This is starting from the ground floor. I told her I think that she has an EA going with the other man, and you are right that I have no moral grounds to stop it.
> 
> If she slept with someone else, even for revenge, I wouldn't call it cheating at this point. There is no marriage to cheat on. The best I can hope is that she doesn't fall in love with someone else, and perhaps we can bring a union back together with just she and I in the end...
> 
> To your last comment, I don't think ANYTHING will alleviate the severity of my cheating. In fact, at times I am afraid of our future life together because I know that this will change the rest of our lives. Together or separated in the end, this situation that I have put us in will change the course of both of our lives forevor.



well I hate to say this but I don't think there's much hope for your marriage, as long as that EA continues she will happily stay separated and not divorced for you to finance her affair, she will cake eat as much as you did and maybe moreso


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## MEM2020

The 6 month draught (spelling) was expected based on your initial post.
- she may initiate during hysterical bonding - in general she dislikes it
- you may need to accept that she is never really going to initiate a meaningful amount
- was she comfortable rejecting you? Repeatedly? That is toxic and needs to be addressed

So now she gets a revenge affair eh? Ok. Sure seems like your core model with your wife is:
-I pretend to be ok with her behavior even when I am not
- when it all gets to be too much, I find comfort from another woman

If it was me: I would tell her, either focus on the recon or don't. I can't work a recon while you and "OM" pursue somethng that looks at minimum like an EA.
Followed by a real boundary: if you prefer him, we can proceed with a divorce.

As for the 6 months - that was not a unique thing for you two - the physical part of your marriage is too flaky for stability. 
Unless that was you being stubborn about her initiating. 

If she doesn't reject often, and genuinely is into it when you get her going - you need to accept that is how she is.

If you are getting the hurry up and finsh vibe, or lots of rejection, that is different.





UOTE=Barnowl;797578]Sigma - I did read that link. Thank you.

Morituri - My wife is certainly in "Hall Pass Mode." I wasn't going to bring this up, but this is a good enough segway. The first week after D-Day, she started texting many friends who were helping her cope with what I had done to our marriage. One of these friends just happens to be a great looking single guy who is "So nice" and "Just a friend". They text every day, they text into the evenings, and she has been hanging out with him. Of course this makes me insanely jealous, but she is her own woman who can make her own decisions. We both talked about her going out and having her own sexual experiences, and as hard as it was to talk about, that might just be a reality. At this point, what she and the other guy have going could easily (and in my opinion already is) become and emotional relationship. I don't know that they share enough compatibility for them to actually date and my wife leave me for him, but the knowledge that they might become intimate is certainly on my mind.

Honestly, sex was the major problem in our marriage. She never initiates it, and a few years ago we went 6 months with no intimate physical contact at all. (In my opinion, from the cheaters perspective) That is what I used to justify my actions. Should I have left her, probably. Was cheating a bad decision, most definitely. I just couldn't leave her though...

If she has sex with someone else, then that is something I will deal with at that time. Being a stupid jealous male, I may be inclined to try to hit the guy in the face, but that is a bridge I will cross when I come to it. 

As odd as it sounds, this situation has actually jump started my wife's libido. We have been fairly active in the past month since D-Day. That is a concern because now I know that she could be ready and willing for another man...but, that doesn't stop me from wanting to allow her to be intimate with me as much as she is comfortable with.

This entire situation is unpredictable at best. It could literally become the unraveling of my entire life, or it could lead to the most amazing connection possible with a woman that I have loved since I was in junior high. Is it weird for me to want her to have her own sexual experiences? For her to have thoughts and memories the same as I do now? I think that would help her. Maybe she would find someone better, maybe she would leave me...or maybe she would see that sex is sex, and she would still want to be with me in the end.

I honestly have no idea at this point. It is moment to moment...[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gabriel

What if she does sleep with another guy? She could justify this still wasn't enough because it will be 3-to-1. You had three affairs. 

You said yourself you are a jealous male. If she sleeps with 1, 2, 3 guys to even the score, you are going to get angry, despite not having the moral ground to stand on. Revenge affairs, especially ones that are out in the open, are just horrible ideas.

You are still married - even if you say the marriage is pointless and meaningless. At this point, my description of your marriage would be "open".

My point of that is this arrangement isn't going to work, long term. And she's still "dependent" on you if you are paying for her apartment. The whole thing sounds ludicrous for working toward any sort of meaningful re-"connection".


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## Hope1964

You are making a HUGE HUGE HUGE mistake by giving her permission to date. Call it what you want to, I am going to call it R, you cannot have ANY kind of successful marriage unless you are both 100% committed. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.

Read the link in my sig about Understanding. That's how she feels right now, and you will feel if she 'dates other people'.


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## morituri

Barnowl said:


> There is no R in our marriage. *She made it very clear that we are not working toward reconciliation*. In fact, she rejects that word altogether.


Then what's there left to discuss? File for divorce and go dark on her.


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## Almostrecovered

I think we should stop saying "starts dating" because clearly she's already started something with the single guy


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## Barnowl

morituri said:


> I think that you want her to have an affair(s) because it would make YOU feel better about yourself. In your mind, it would once again level the playing field. But the fact is, that a RA (revenge affair) seldom helps the recovery of a BS (betrayed spouse).


Yeah this might be true. There is a lot of good information here on this page for me to think about. I keep going back and forth. Yes my wife rejected my physical advancements. This caused me to emotionally shut down in our marriage, which fed the vicious cycle of not having an emotional connection with my wife that ultimately helps lead to a better sex life between us. It is a bit like chicken and the egg. I get rejected, I shut down, I don't emotionally connect with her, that causes her to shut down, and then she rejects me. Ugh, that is an ugly thing to type out and say.

The EA or whatever she is having is really up to her and her actions to decide how to proceed with. I know the guy, he is Mormon, and my wife and I aren't, and he seems to be pretty committed to it. This leads me to believe that he won't sleep with her, but there is a real possibility that they will date and kiss, and become close. Being in Utah, we deal with the mormon religion a lot, and there is no way my wife will end up with this guy long term. That is at least one comfort, haha. But, he is a Man first, a friend second, and a mormon third, which leads me to believe that he will think with his *ick instead of with his head. I think most men do that anyway...:scratchhead:

I want to fix our marriage, because when it is good, it is the most amazing thing I have every experienced. Likewise, when it is bad, it is completely toxic, enough so much for me to walk away from obviously.

Maybe I am asking the wrong questions...maybe I am going about this wrong. Why hasn't anyone written a book that will help dictate my actions?? 

The six month separation was dictated by the lease contract, and it is actually 5 months. It will be done in October. She will be done with the apartment either way. We discussed that if we are going to divorce, then she will move back with her parents so she can afford to keep going to school and finish her degree. Financially we are totally separate. I still pay for her car payment, but the car could be sold at any time and she could pick herself up one. Other than that, I am not financially holding her hand through this...which, after 6 years of taking care of the finances, feels really strange to me!


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## Barnowl

morituri said:


> Then what's there left to discuss? File for divorce and go dark on her.


If I could walk away from that woman then I would have three years ago. I get physically sick thinking about filing a divorce and walking away cold turkey. I can't quit this woman!


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## morituri

Barnowl said:


> If I could walk away from that woman then I would have three years ago. I get physically sick thinking about filing a divorce and walking away cold turkey. I can't quit this woman!


Believe me I know how gut wrenching it is and I was the BS whose cheating wife was on her hands and knees, hysterically crying her eyes out and begging me not to leave her on DDay. 

Nevertheless, you would be wise to consider that if she truly believes that there can never be R between you, that she is essentially telling you that the marriage is over. So if in her eyes, the marriage is dead, then the only thing remaining is to bury the body (divorce).


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

letting her 'cake eat' is poisoning your chances of a future with her. 

I understand you feel its penance and your holding onto a picture where she realizes how much she loves you and comes home.... but, Your insuring that is not going to happen by playing this game.


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## Barnowl

How do I bring that up to her as the BS without sounding like the guy who had an affair, and now he just wants to bail. I don't want to bail. I want it to work out, but I want to get tot he bottom of how she feels. 

I think it is too early to honestly know. I think she deserves the 5-6 months of my time trying to make it work...seeing if she wants to go the route of a revenge affair...really just let things play out. We have shared 11 years of our lives together. I think she deserves a few months of my time to hopefully figure out what she wants.


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> At this point, my plan to win her back is really going to depend a lot on how much effort I put into courting her. I know she loves me. She still tells me she loves me, but she is not going to move past what I have done to our marriage without me making some serious effort to show her that she is the only woman for me.
> 
> If we stay married, then I have this feeling that it is going to be the most amazing bond possible. That all of the isues we have been dealing with the past few years in our marriage that I used to justify stepping out will disolve, and we will be good.
> 
> Maybe that is just a "cheaters perspective" and reality will be hitting me in the face...who knows. I just can't imagine my life without her, and I want to do anything I can to keep her in my life.


It's more likely reality will eventually hit her in the face.

Using marital difficulties as a reason to step out or to address issues, is a huge mistake. 

Most of the times it is a fatal mistake for the marriage. 

You do sound remorseful though, and if you continue with the heavy lifting and never cheat again, your marriage may last. 

It will never be the same though, and although some aspects of it may improve. She will never trust you again. 

Also, just a question. Since you think that cheating may resolve the marital issues and make your marriage better, are you okay with her stepping out for awhile to make things better and to address issues?


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## Barnowl

Sara8 said:


> Also, just a question. Since you think that cheating may resolve the marital issues and make your marriage better, are you okay with her stepping out for awhile to make things better and to address issues?


I kind of discussed this a bit. I don't have a problem right now with her going out and gaining her own experiences. I just don't want her to fall in love with someone else. But, as for sex...if she needs to go out and do that with someone else, then I am all for it.

I feel like the marriage is over. She feels like the marriage is over. We both feel like there is enough of a bond between us to attempt to date again and reconnect. It will be a new marriage though. She will never trust me again, at least never the way she did, and I understand that. 

I am certainly remorseful, and I have been trying to do the heavy lifting. There is still a lot bouncing around in my head about what I want for my future too...nothing is set in stone here. Barely one month past D-Day, I would say that everything is still really fresh on our minds...


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## morituri

Why not simply ask her *"Are you sure there can never be R between us?"* and if she answers with *"I told you before, there can never be R between us"* then say *"I understand, I'll contact an attorney to file divorce papers"*.

Most divorces don't happen automatically and may take months - even a year or more depending on where you live - before they are finalized. She'll have plenty of time to decide what she wants before that happens.


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## Almostrecovered

morituri said:


> Why not simply ask her *"Are you sure there can never be R between us?"* and if she answers with *"I told you before, there can never be R between us"* then say *"I understand, I'll contact an attorney to file divorce papers"*.
> 
> Most divorces don't happen automatically and may take months - even a year or more depending on where you live - before they are finalized. She'll have plenty of time to decide what she wants before that happens.


:iagree:


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> I kind of discussed this a bit. I don't have a problem right now with her going out and gaining her own experiences. I just don't want her to fall in love with someone else. But, as for sex...if she needs to go out and do that with someone else, then I am all for it.
> 
> I feel like the marriage is over. She feels like the marriage is over. We both feel like there is enough of a bond between us to attempt to date again and reconnect. It will be a new marriage though. She will never trust me again, at least never the way she did, and I understand that.
> 
> I am certainly remorseful, and I have been trying to do the heavy lifting. There is still a lot bouncing around in my head about what I want for my future too...nothing is set in stone here. Barely one month past D-Day, I would say that everything is still really fresh on our minds...


Okay. I do think she needs to stop the emotional affair though, at this point.

Mori's advice was good. Ask her to stop now. She had her chance to howl, and to show you how it feels to feel insecure about another person. 

You can file and it may take awhile. That may push her either way though. She may work on things more seriously or she may divorce.


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## Barnowl

That is the fear. I don't want to push her away. I want to keep her as close as possible. Hense the reason I helped pick out the apartment, made sure she was safe. I paid the first month of rent so I knew she had a buffer of cash in her account...all these things I have done to try to keep her close to me, and help me know that she is ok. 

If I tell her I am filing for divorce, that will most certainly push her away. That would be the beginning of the very end.


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## Hope1964

Barnowl said:


> If I tell her I am filing for divorce, that will most certainly push her away. That would be the beginning of the very end.


You just said you both think the marriage is over. I am confused. Which is it?


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## Barnowl

Hope1964 said:


> You just said you both think the marriage is over. I am confused. Which is it?


I honestly don't even know! 

It is over. There I said it. The marriage ended on May 6th, 2012. What I don't want to do is permanently shut the door on the possibility that she will be mine again. I feel like filing for divorce 4 weeks after D-Day would do that. She needs some time to figure out what is right for her. When her mind is more clear, all I can do is hope that I am the person she feels she would be most happy with for the rest of her life.

This whole situation screws up how you think. I am convinced that this has affected my ability to think clearly and rationally about things...It is going to take a lot of time I think before getting back to some amount of "normal".


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## tacoma

I think I`m on board with the OP here.

If he wants this he has to be willing to take as much as he can possibly handle.
It`s way too soon for him to be dropping D papers and the act wouldn`t be smart coming from the WS that wanted to reconcile.

He essentially has to keep on as close as he can to her while letting her go as much as he can.

After whatever amount of time it takes for BarnOwl to realize he`s wasting time or she comes back.

It`s really his only option.

Sorry BarnOwl


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## Hope1964

So ARE you committed to trying to R? Notice I said TRYING. Is she? I know it's early, but you guys should be thinking about this now in order to take the next step. If you're both waffling and she goes out and screws someone else and/or has an EA (which it appears she is) then you're doomed.


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## Barnowl

tacoma said:


> I think I`m on board with the OP here.
> 
> If he wants this he has to be willing to take as much as he can possibly handle.
> It`s way too soon for him to be dropping D papers and the act wouldn`t be smart coming from the WS that wanted to reconcile.
> 
> He essentially has to keep on as close as he can to her while letting her go as much as he can.
> 
> After whatever amount of time it takes for BarnOwl to realize he`s wasting time or she comes back.
> 
> It`s really his only option.
> 
> Sorry BarnOwl



This feels like one of those, "the truth hurts" moments. You are exactly right. I told her this morning that I feel like I am walking a fine line between finding comfort in her new apartment, and setting up shop, while at the same time providing her with space.

I am committed to at least 6 months. If after 6 months I feel like I am wasting my time, or she is wasting her time, then I think we can call it quits. 4 weeks in is way too early to make a call one way or another...


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## Barnowl

Hope1964 said:


> So ARE you committed to trying to R? Notice I said TRYING. Is she? I know it's early, but you guys should be thinking about this now in order to take the next step. If you're both waffling and she goes out and screws someone else and/or has an EA (which it appears she is) then you're doomed.


We are both trying. I mean, we have regular counseling together. I talk to her everyday. I see her everyday still. We went on a really fun date last night which included something we have never done together as well as a new restaurant...(I am really pushing this new beginnings thing). So I do definitely feel like we are both trying. She says hopeful things, but I know that this has absolutely wrecked her in so many ways, that I try not to be too demanding of answers from her. At least not at this point.

I did tell her that if are going to make this work in any real sense then the contact between her and the EA man will need to stop. We have not really discussed that further.

What happens is she feels like I am blame shifting, and down playing my infidelity. We have fought about her texting this other guy (who really is her friend) instead of discussing the fact that I cheated. It is a really weird place to be both the person who destroyed the marriage, and at the same time be insanely jealous of my wife literally just talking to another man. 

Maybe I need to talk to the other guy and let him know that my intentions are to fully work towards being with my wife, and if he undermines that in any way, then we may have problems, lol. 

There goes the stupid jealous boy thoughts...I can't help it!


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## Hope1964

I think that you have your head screwed on very well for someone going through this at this stage 

I am trying to imagine what I would have thought if, in my situation where I kicked my hubby out on D day, I had started to have a revenge affair and he demanded I stop. I think it would have shown me the level of his commitment, and it would have been a positive mark for him. If you DON'T demand she stop the EA, you're sending a message that you don't care what she does. At least, if I was her, that would be the message I got.


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## Barnowl

Good call. Thanks for that. I need to hear that. Now, here is the question. She told me that in light of my actions, she has a hard time seeing how she is doing anything wrong. She agrees that I see it as an emotional relationship she is forming, but she does not feel wrong about it.

Should my demanding it stop be conditioned on anything? Or do I just tell her how I feel, and let the chips fall where they may? 

Also, she works with this guy, so a no contact is never going to happen. I guess I could attempt to get the texts, calls, and visits to stop. Other than one time, she has always been with this guy with a group of friends. I don't mind that as much, but the one on one is not going anywhere positive in my mind...

But as the cheater in this relationship. I feel like any demands I place on her put me on very rocky ground...I just don't want it to get too far between her and him.

But, as you can see, this topic has a way of overshadowing the fact that I cheated. Already we have spent nearly a page on my wifes potential EA via a few text messages...I am really not trying to shift blame, or move past my own infidelity, but this is a stiky issue for me for sure.


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> That is the fear. I don't want to push her away. I want to keep her as close as possible. Hense the reason I helped pick out the apartment, made sure she was safe. I paid the first month of rent so I knew she had a buffer of cash in her account...all these things I have done to try to keep her close to me, and help me know that she is ok.
> 
> If I tell her I am filing for divorce, that will most certainly push her away. That would be the beginning of the very end.


Barnowl:

It's too soon, IMO, to file for divorce. Take your time. What's the rush.

Right now you sound too confused to make a rational competent decision. 

Slooooow down. Take one day at a time. 

Reconcilation apparently is possible. There is an entire board here devoted to it and sigma and others have a good R. 

No one can give you a firm answer though.

You need to take a leap of faith. 

Your wife if she will R is taking a leap of faith that you will never cheat. 

So, can you take a leap of faith to wait and see if things work out?


----------



## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> Good call. Thanks for that. I need to hear that. Now, here is the question. She told me that in light of my actions, she has a hard time seeing how she is doing anything wrong. She agrees that I see it as an emotional relationship she is forming, but she does not feel wrong about it.
> 
> Should my demanding it stop be conditioned on anything? Or do I just tell her how I feel, and let the chips fall where they may?
> 
> Also, she works with this guy, so a no contact is never going to happen. I guess I could attempt to get the texts, calls, and visits to stop. Other than one time, she has always been with this guy with a group of friends. I don't mind that as much, but the one on one is not going anywhere positive in my mind...
> 
> But as the cheater in this relationship. I feel like any demands I place on her put me on very rocky ground...I just don't want it to get too far between her and him.
> 
> But, as you can see, this topic has a way of overshadowing the fact that I cheated. Already we have spent nearly a page on my wifes potential EA via a few text messages...I am really not trying to shift blame, or move past my own infidelity, but this is a stiky issue for me for sure.


It is a tough spot. Sorry.

I do think you can't demand she stop talking to him about personal stuff, but you can ask her to. 

Can you get her to an MC, a different one. Most will say the EA now for her is unhealthy. Find one who disapproves of the EA


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## Acabado

Is MC informed about her .... let's say ''special friendship''? I don't get it at all. It's insane. Every MC know you are not to be ibn competition with a new man. Many MC refuses clients engaged actively in affiars or behaviors which go against the mere porpose of rebuiding a marriage (or building a new one, it's actually semantics).Whatever effort you put on winning her back won't go though her. Ever. You have baggage, a long story together full of misunderstanding, resentments... you name the issues plus you infidelity. You can't compete with the newness, the exitement. If a woman shift the focus of her atention and leave another met her emotional needs you have ZERO chances.


ETA
I don't tell you to file but in the next MC session you should tell you can't woe her while she's ''dating'' OM. She will lose any inch of respect she have left for you and you will have no chances at all. You can love her to pieces but you can be reduced to buy her the condoms with a smile.


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## Barnowl

Our MC told her that he would not be starting an EA with another man...didn't seem to phase her much, lol. 

She definitely wants to try different things. In fact, I just got an email from her that says that because I had a three year relationship with someone, that she wants her own relationship. Of course this was hurtful to hear. I emailed her back talking about my feelings, and I think we are going to have a good conversation about it tonight.

Perhaps by tomorrow I will know exactly what the ground rules for our separation are, and better understand her feelings and what she wants to do. All I can tell her is how it will make me feel, and then let her do with it what she wants.


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## Barnowl

Acabado said:


> If a woman shift the focus of her atention and leave another met her emotional needs you have ZERO chance.


Yeah, this is where I feel like I am standing right now...


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## tacoma

I`m thinking most here ought to back off Barnowls wife a bit.

She`s just had her world ripped out from under her, she needs some time to look at her options.

She`s just flailing as any of us would in her shoes.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Barnowl said:


> Our MC told her that he would not be starting an EA with another man...didn't seem to phase her much, lol.
> 
> She definitely wants to try different things. In fact, I just got an email from her that says that because I had a three year relationship with someone, that she wants her own relationship. Of course this was hurtful to hear. I emailed her back talking about my feelings, and I think we are going to have a good conversation about it tonight.
> 
> Perhaps by tomorrow I will know exactly what the ground rules for our separation are, and better understand her feelings and what she wants to do. All I can tell her is how it will make me feel, and then let her do with it what she wants.


So in essence, your bad behavior justifies hers. I do not agree with revenge affairs. I think they are just as bad, even if I can understand why the BS would want them. Right now, her behavior is not helpful for you two staying together. She flat out wants another relationship, and wants you to be okay with it. Only you can figure out if you are.

While you might not want to go to divorce, consider setting up a legal separation that will help speed up the divorce process in the even that you end up there (a pretty likley event in my opinion). Just tell her that while you can pull it at any time, it avoids wasting time if she decides she no longer wants a relationship with you.

I also suggest individual counseling for you to get through this, as well as straighten out your own cheating ways. You have a lot to process.


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## eman

OP at least she is communicating with you. I say hold on to that and always keep your communication positive, even when your wife may be feeling upset. Be there to support her even when it feels like an emotional roller coaster.

I, on the other hand, haven't been able to get my BW to even text me back for the past few weeks due to my A  ..... let alone actually speak to me.


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## Barnowl

tacoma said:


> I`m thinking most here ought to back off Barnowls wife a bit.
> 
> She`s just had her world ripped out from under her, she needs some time to look at her options.
> 
> She`s just flailing as any of us would in her shoes.


I certainly agree! I just know that what I am about to witness will rip me apart. I cheated on her sure. I destroyed our marriage in one fell swoop in one afternoon. But, she didn't have to see me out dating people. Somehow I feel that is worse, haha. (oh the cheater's perspective...how strange it is)

My grandfather won my grandmother over by simply hogging all of her time.  She was a hottie who had men chasing her, and he made sure that she had plans with him every night. If she didn't have plans with him, he would go over to her parents house and talk to her mom about what he planned to do with her. Maybe I need to go old school and take a lesson from gramps...keep her happy and busy with me, lol. 

What is it about these situations that causes you to suddenly see what you could lose with absolute clarity? Why couldn't I realize what I had on May 5th, 2012, and delete every email and do a no contact then? Why??? 

If she leaves me, she will be my forevor "one that got away". I can see my sad life unraveling now...and the worst part is the knowledge that I did it solely to myself.


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## tacoma

I will repeat.

I believe ANY move by Barnowl that could even appear as if he is ending this marriage will all but guarantee it`s end at this point in the process.

I do not think he should legally separate nor do I think he should have D papers pursued.

The only thing he should be doing is "taking it" while making his feelings well known until he can no longer deal with it or she comes back.

I believe he has lost any and every bit of possible leverage through his infidelity and if he really wants her it`s going to really hurt to get her.
The only thing he can utilize at this point is pain tolerance.

I think he sees this.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

There are so many reasons I disagree with the way you are handling this. I understand your position, I empathize with your desperation and I see how you are thinking but... fundamentally, this is being set up to fail.


----------



## eman

Barnowl said:


> I certainly agree! I just know that what I am about to witness will rip me apart. I cheated on her sure. I destroyed our marriage in one fell swoop in one afternoon. But, she didn't have to see me out dating people. Somehow I feel that is worse, haha. (oh the cheater's perspective...how strange it is)
> 
> My grandfather won my grandmother over by simply hogging all of her time.  She was a hottie who had men chasing her, and he made sure that she had plans with him every night. If she didn't have plans with him, he would go over to her parents house and talk to her mom about what he planned to do with her. Maybe I need to go old school and take a lesson from gramps...keep her happy and busy with me, lol.
> 
> *What is it about these situations that causes you to suddenly see what you could lose with absolute clarity?* Why couldn't I realize what I had on May 5th, 2012, and delete every email and do a no contact then? Why???
> 
> If she leaves me, she will be my forevor "one that got away". I can see my sad life unraveling now...and the worst part is the knowledge that I did it solely to myself.


I've been asking myself that for the past 4 weeks!


----------



## tacoma

Barnowl said:


> My grandfather won my grandmother over by simply hogging all of her time.  She was a hottie who had men chasing her, and he made sure that she had plans with him every night. If she didn't have plans with him, he would go over to her parents house and talk to her mom about what he planned to do with her. Maybe I need to go old school and take a lesson from gramps...keep her happy and busy with me, lol.


Not a bad plan.

Take as much of her time as she can be convinced to give you.

Sooner or later this will bring you into a bit of a betaized doormat situation but if she does come around that can be dealt with later.


----------



## Barnowl

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> There are so many reasons I disagree with the way you are handling this. I understand your position, I empathize with your desperation and I see how you are thinking but... fundamentally, this is being set up to fail.


And yet, I keep it going, lol. I have a pretty high tolerance for pain, despair, etc...I kind of like the way it was put above that all I can do is ride this train until it hurts too much, or she comes back to me.

The MC told me that not a lot of men in my situation could be as understanding as I am. I have compulsive behavior problems, and I tend to do things all the way or not at all. This separation is an "all the way" moment. I am all in. I am being the super crazy supportive cheating husband. It may be to my own demise too...

She is going to want what she is going to want. There is nothing I can do about that. All I feel like I can do is be there, tell her that I love and care about her, and make sure she knows that I am fighting to get her back in my life with me.


----------



## Gabriel

Barnowl said:


> And yet, I keep it going, lol. I have a pretty high tolerance for pain, despair, etc...I kind of like the way it was put above that all I can do is ride this train until it hurts too much, or she comes back to me.
> 
> The M told me that not a lot of men in my situation could be as understanding as I am. I have compulsive behavior problems, and I tend to do things all the way or not at all. This separation is an "all the way" moment. I am all in. I am being the super crazy supportive cheating husband. It may be to my own demise too...
> 
> She is going to want what she is going to want. There is nothing I can do about that. All I feel like I can do is be there, tell her that I love and care about her, and make sure she knows that I am fighting to get her back in my life with me.



I'm with Pit on this one. You having to take the pain she lashes on you is one thing (and necessary). You condoning her having another relationship is another entirely. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm with Tacoma, though, on not filing D, or legally separating. Separating at all, to me, facilitates unfaithful behavior.

If I were you, I would express my sincere remorse, explain that I will do anything she needs to make this MARRIAGE work, but I would tell her that I would not accept her having a revenge affair to get me back. She can take that offer or leave it. Because if she has a one or more revenge affairs, starts a 3 year extra-marital relationship, etc, etc, then you have nothing to salvage. She will have moved on without you.

She has every right to do this, but not while you're still married, and certainly not while you're financing it.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

tacoma said:


> I will repeat.
> 
> I believe ANY move by Barnowl that could even appear as if he is ending this marriage will all but guarantee it`s end at this point in the process.
> 
> I do not think he should legally separate nor do I think he should have D papers pursued.
> 
> The only thing he should be doing is "taking it" while making his feelings well known until he can no longer deal with it or she comes back.
> 
> I believe he has lost any and every bit of possible leverage through his infidelity and if he really wants her it`s going to really hurt to get her.
> The only thing he can utilize at this point is pain tolerance.
> 
> I think he sees this.


Perhaps. Of course, at this rate he will never get her, because everything she is doing is harming what little relationship they have. Consider that while she runs him through the wringer, she also loses any remaining respect for him. While he "takes it", she learns that she has a doormat she can run over anytime. Not a good outcome.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Gabriel said:


> I'm with Pit on this one. You having to take the pain she lashes on you is one thing (and necessary). You condoning her having another relationship is another entirely. Two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> I'm with Tacoma, though, on not filing D, or legally separating. Separating at all, to me, facilitates unfaithful behavior.
> 
> If I were you, I would express my sincere remorse, explain that I will do anything she needs to make this MARRIAGE work, but I would tell her that I would not accept her having a revenge affair to get me back. She can take that offer or leave it. Because if she has a one or more revenge affairs, starts a 3 year extra-marital relationship, etc, etc, then you have nothing to salvage. She will have moved on without you.
> 
> She has every right to do this, but not while you're still married, and certainly not while you're financing it.


The reason I suggest a legal separation is that they already are separated. She can and is doing what she wants. Legal separation governs the ground rules and can start the time for getting a divorce (required in some states), without actually filing. It is easier to pull, less public, but really makes clear the marriage is in mortal danger. When and if one of them can't take it any more, they can end thing faster and with less pain.

Of course, the OP knows his wife better and what would work.

As I think about it, I would also wait a bit longer to see if things settle down. If she backs off having another relationship, then it might not be needed.


----------



## Barnowl

Tall Average Guy said:


> Perhaps. Of course, at this rate he will never get her, because everything she is doing is harming what little relationship they have. Consider that while she runs him through the wringer, she also loses any remaining respect for him. While he "takes it", she learns that she has a doormat she can run over anytime. Not a good outcome.


No one is making me feel any better about this today.  I have gotten some great advice today, and have written down a few notes that I am going to bring up with her tonight when we talk. I am going to lay out exactly how her experiencing another relationship makes me feel. Tell her that I will continue to pursue her and date her, but that I will not waste my time or hers. Divorce is a real option here. I always talked big to myself about how I should leave her and find a oman who actually enjoys sex, and blah blah blah, but the hard truth is that I can't just do that. I need to play this game and see how it works out....


----------



## In_The_Wind

Barnowl said:


> May 6, 2012 is a day that my wife, my family, and myself will remember for the rest of our lives. It is the day that my wife of 6 years discovered that I had been cheating on her.
> 
> This isn't an easy topic to talk about, and I have been lurking on this site for the past few weeks reading posts and perpectives in an attempt to be a better husband, and help fuel the fire to reconcile with my wife.
> 
> My wife discovered emails between myself and three women. It took me about 4 days, but the full truth of my actions finally came out to her. I had an emotional affair that lasted three years. We had become friends, and she was someone that I spoke to often. In addition to that, I had two other physical affairs. I will not go into my "justifications" for the affairs. I understand that what I did was a choice, and I am now making every attempt possible to make amends with my wife.
> 
> I have sent a no contact email to the EA woman, and I have since deleted the email account. My wife and I confronted one of the PA women as well. That was an experience I will never forget...and one that gives me an immense amount of respect for my wife in the way that she handled herself in front of the OW.
> 
> We have been going to marriage counseling, and my wife has begun seeing a counselor of her own. We are trying a separation. I have helped my wife find and pay for an apartment, and she will be moving out this weekend.
> 
> I don't really know what this thread will produce, but I am hoping to learn from other's mistakes, and learn from other's experiences in reconciliation. My wife has not flat out told me that she will not reconcile, but there has been no clear indication that she will reconcile either. I have done everything I was supposed to do in the newbie posts. We now have full transparency, I have implemented no contact with the OW, I am exceedingly remorseful, I am being supportive for her in every way possible.
> 
> Long story short is that this experience is like hitting the bottom of a bungie cord, and I feel like I have been snapped up back into reality. The realization that I could lose my wife has given me the motivation I need to set myself straight and do whatever I can to reconcile.
> 
> Any input, advice, or scolding remarks you would like to make, I will happily hear and attempt to act on in order to rebuild my marriage.


Why are yall separating If its over and you are both in MC etc
I am assuming yall are in recovery ??
its hard to work on a marriage separated Most Mc's encourage couples that are separated to work towards living together 

this normally allows the affair(s) to continue or allows the other party a revenge affair


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

When I found out my ex h was cheating I left right away. He begged, pleaded, ect.. to get me back. I was firm with my words and I truly meant it. He, too, slept with more then one woman.

I honestly think its too late to save your marriage. Lean from your mistakes and don't do this to your next wife. I highly doubt you'll be able to get your current wife back. What you did was the ultimate betrayal. You don't cheat on the ones you most dearly love. 

For me, sleeping with one woman or even an EA is a big deal breaker and I will leave without looking back! It does make it worse that there is more then one woman involved. I'm very firm with this no matter how many years I've invested with my spouse.


----------



## Barnowl

The conversations between my wife and I have pretty well disolved today...not angry or bitter, but very sad and understanding that this might be the end. My wife just told me that the marriage is completely over, and that if I need a piece of paper to confirm that (aka divorce decree) then we can go that way. 

To her, the marriage is completely finished. I think that will make our MC over too. I will still go to this guy for cuonseling as I think it has been really helpful, but I don't know why we would go to MC together now after she said that. It is a hard reality.

Learn from my mistakes and do better next time...that is feeling like my only real option right now.


----------



## Almostrecovered

I think the writing has been on the wall the whole time but you just weren't seeing it

I do feel bad for you but I feel much worse for your wife, it was your bad decision and actions that put all of this into motion. We will put warning labels on cigarettes but no one ever really talks about the harms of infidelity and it is almost canonized in media

I do hope that have indeed learned from this and will get the help that you have said you will seek.


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## In_The_Wind

Sorry You have put yourself in this situation Live and learn as they say I would based on her last conversation with you is remove her from any joint accts such as checking or credit cards etc start working on yourself such as IC and find some hobbies like exercising etc and as others have said go dark do not call her etc if she calls you let her talk to the recorder or texts take your time in responding if you go dark that means no contact with her do yall have any children ???


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## Hope1964

Don't give up all hope. When I kicked my hubby out I was DONE. Done. I never wanted to see his face again. But between him proving he was remorseful, and the IC I went to, after about 3 months I changed my mind and was open to reconciliation. And today we are happier than we were for YEARS before he cheated.

On the other hand, you don't want to beat your head against a brick wall forever. Give her a bit more time. But stick to your guns about her cheating.


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## Barnowl

I still plan on pursuing her, haha. I mean there can be no more harm done than I have already done, and she is the love of my life. This is going to be an interesting week. The first truly moved out week. I think it will be telling...I just don't really know what the outcome will be. I am going to have a VERY difficult time paring back my communication with her. I mean, I talk to her every single day through emails, nearly all day. Perhaps cutting back on that will have her wondering...I don't want to push away, but I do want her to think of me...wonder about me...geez I don't know. It is like standing on top of the empire state building and being told to walk in any direction, knowing full well that they all lead to a painful fall...

Ugly thing infidelity is. Ugly thing.


----------



## tacoma

Barnowl said:


> The conversations between my wife and I have pretty well disolved today...not angry or bitter, but very sad and understanding that this might be the end. My wife just told me that the marriage is completely over, and that if I need a piece of paper to confirm that (aka divorce decree) then we can go that way.
> 
> To her, the marriage is completely finished. I think that will make our MC over too. I will still go to this guy for cuonseling as I think it has been really helpful, but I don't know why we would go to MC together now after she said that. It is a hard reality.
> 
> Learn from my mistakes and do better next time...that is feeling like my only real option right now.


I`m very sorry Barnowl and I have no wish to give you false hope BUT...she has not asked for or demanded a divorce, this is still very early on.

Most likely, by her word your marriage is over but if I were in your shoes I would not seek to legally terminate or separate the marriage in any way unless she specifically asks you to.

Not until some good amount of time has passed, enough for either you or her to start thinking straight again.

If I were you I would do anything and everything she asked of me but I would not voluntarily process the legal end of my marriage unless asked to by her.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

as many others have stated.. I do not think filing for divorce, threatening or giving any sort of ulmitatum to her is a good idea... 

But I think keeping yourself in the present dynamic much longer is going to damage things even worse.

Your not thinking this through. your emotionally (which makes you mentally) comprimised...

Case in point.... 



Barnowl said:


> My grandfather won my grandmother over by simply hogging all of her time.  She was a hottie who had men chasing her, and he made sure that she had plans with him every night.


C'mon??? I'm assuming your grandpa hadn't just betrayed and stomped your grandmothers heart out before he attempted this. Big glitch in that plan cassanova.



Barnowl said:


> That is the fear. I don't want to push her away. I want to keep her as close as possible.
> 
> If I tell her I am filing for divorce, that will most certainly push her away. That would be the beginning of the very end.


The beginning of the very end happened many many times before this. You were there, you should know.

*Newsflash:* You've already blown it. Now your concerened about the wrong move? *Newsflash:* Your in desparation mode, your holding out for a miracle you don't deserve... Time to be bold. Step outside your instincts, they have sucked up until now. 

Your worried about pushing her away and your trying to keep her close now? lol. 

You have totally f.ucked this entire marriage and everything else up, why stop now?. Stay on your current path, I promise you'll have more regrets to pile on the already epic stack of blunders... 

Your plan is not going to work dude.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, I don't mean for it too. Time to wake up to the f.ucking trainwreck you've made both of your lives.

Best thumbnail advice I can give you....

Let her go. It's the best chance you have of getting her back.


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## Barnowl

^^^Good advice.

To answer a previous question, no, we do not have children. Two dogs and three cats (which are all our kids, lol) but no children. Kind of waiting until after Grad School. Hell, now I might be waiting even longer, haha.

Neither of us have wanted children, and we understood that we would have them when we were ready. At 28 years old, I didn't feel ready. I am glad I didn't bring children into this world, and then do what I did. At least I have that going for me...or at least we don't have that burden to bear through all of this.


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## In_The_Wind

I agree with Tacoma less is more as far as contact at this point let her pursue you is what i am saying


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## Barnowl

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> *Newsflash:* You've already blown it. Now your concerened about the wrong move? *Newsflash:* Your in desparation mode, your holding out for a miracle you don't deserve... Time to be bold. Step outside your instincts, they have sucked up until now.
> 
> Let her go. It's the best chance you have of getting her back.


I really like this advice. It is a reality check for sure. Also the cassanova omment got a  out of me for whatever that is worth. I am a pretty realitic person. I understand that this is most likely the end. I am jut having a hard time coming to grips with it is all.


----------



## Gabriel

Barnowl said:


> I really like this advice. It is a reality check for sure. Also the cassanova omment got a  out of me for whatever that is worth. I am a pretty realitic person. I understand that this is most likely the end. I am jut having a hard time coming to grips with it is all.


You seem to be taking this way too lightly with all the LOLs and emoticons and the like. You hurt your wife really, really badly. It almost seems too easy for you right now. The full gravity of the angst you caused your W appears not to have hit you.

It's like, "oh well, I screwed up, la de dah. This sucks, LOL"

Sorry for your situation, but I'm afraid the tough stuff is yet to come. Be ready for it when it fully hits.


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## Barnowl

You know it isn't that at all. I am just trying to sit back and listen to people, and you have everything from super supportive comments to those telling me my head is up my ass. This situation represents all of the above too...it is pretty crazy, and I don't know how to act during all of this, so I feel like I am just riding the emotional roller coaster. I see what you mean about the laughs, but if I don't attempt to listen with a grain of salt, then I feel like this could all lead to a very dark place. I am not light hearted about anything that has happened, but I am at least attempting to keep a positive spin on life in general...Thanks for the words though, it all keeps things in perspective.


----------



## Gabriel

Barnowl said:


> You know it isn't that at all. I am just trying to sit back and listen to people, and you have everything from super supportive comments to those telling me my head is up my ass. This situation represents all of the above too...it is pretty crazy, and I don't know how to act during all of this, so I feel like I am just riding the emotional roller coaster. I see what you mean about the laughs, but if I don't attempt to listen with a grain of salt, then I feel like this could all lead to a very dark place. I am not light hearted about anything that has happened, but I am at least attempting to keep a positive spin on life in general...Thanks for the words though, it all keeps things in perspective.


Glad to hear it. Perceptions can get lost in these posts.


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## Barnowl

My loving wife, who I have betrayed, has been so incredibly amazing dealing with this trial that I have put us through. I have been invited into her apartment with open arms. We have spent two nights there together. She makes me feel so loved even though I have done this horrific thing to her and to our marriage. I don't know what today will bring, or tomorrow...I am living moment by moment right now. Perceptions and expectations are being dismissed right now in order to focus on the only thing I can change...this very moment. The only thing I can do is be the best person I can in each and every moment, and hopefully that will lead somewhere positive out of this mess that I have caused.


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## Acabado

Be sure to use rubbers, you doesn't know newguy at all.


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## Barnowl

I just got an email from my wife who is fuming mad at her lady co-workers. Apparently after she told a few of her work friends that I was uncomfortable with the relationship she was starting with that man she works with, the women started rumors saying that my wife is doing something completely inappropriate. I don't know how I feel about it, because I basically agree with the ladies, but it kind of just adds insult to injury for my wife. I feel bad because up until this afternoon, she found solace in her work and in her friends that she works with...now that seems a bit jaded. I worry that this will push her even closer to the man she works with. 

I can't control her actions though. She is an adult, and I have made a rime against my marriage. She can make her own decisions....


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## Hope1964

The ladies your wife works with are bang on - your wife IS doing something inappropriate. If your wife can't handle the truth, she should smarten up. Quit feeling sorry for her - she's making her own bed. Just like you did, I guess, but just because you did it doesn't mean she should too.

You are being far more patient than I would be, I think.


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## tacoma

Well the situation could be seen as re-writing history from her perspective.

Are these women she works with aware that the root of your marital troubles is actually an affair you had?

Your wife could be feeling like she`s getting railroaded.


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## Barnowl

Yes, the ladies are well aware of the affair. They were both with her on the evening of her first night moved out to the new apartment. These two "friends" of hers consolled her and made her feel better, they have been friends for a while. Now they are basically just talking behind her back at work. Regardless of my wife's actions, I just think that is pretty low of them. Basically everyone in our lives knows about the affair....everyone she works with, our families, etc. This may be a case of her making her own bed, and she gets to lie in it. My counselor told me to work on my own compulsive problems, focus on the things we have discussed, and basically to let her make her own decisions.

Last night I was very open with my wife and told her that is the way I feel about what she is doing. She asked me if I had gotten "an awakening" or "a calm" come over me. I think I have. I want her back more than anything in my life, and I am doing everythign I can to that end, but at the end of this, she is an adult who can make up her own mind and I am powerless to that. 

This whole situation is so strange. It is such a rollercoaster, even being on the cheating side of things. I own the destruction that I caused, I am doing my best to help her heal, but every single thing about this situation is difficult and exhausting.


----------



## eman

Barnowl said:


> Yes, the ladies are well aware of the affair. They were both with her on the evening of her first night moved out to the new apartment. These two "friends" of hers consolled her and made her feel better, they have been friends for a while. Now they are basically just talking behind her back at work. Regardless of my wife's actions, I just think that is pretty low of them. Basically everyone in our lives knows about the affair....everyone she works with, our families, etc. This may be a case of her making her own bed, and she gets to lie in it. My counselor told me to work on my own compulsive problems, focus on the things we have discussed, and basically to let her make her own decisions.
> 
> Last night I was very open with my wife and told her that is the way I feel about what she is doing. She asked me if I had gotten "an awakening" or "a calm" come over me. I think I have. I want her back more than anything in my life, and I am doing everythign I can to that end, but at the end of this, she is an adult who can make up her own mind and I am powerless to that.
> 
> This whole situation is so strange. It is such a rollercoaster, even being on the cheating side of things. I own the destruction that I caused, I am doing my best to help her heal, but every single thing about this situation is difficult and exhausting.


Being in a very similar situation (not necessarily the way your wife is handling it though) I find that the only way to stay sane is to take it one day at a time. It may sound cliche, but it's the only way I get by. What can you do to stay busy? Do you have hobbies? Do you like to workout?


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## Barnowl

I have been staying busy. The house is the cleanest it has ever been! I haven't done many of my hobbies lately though because my wife now has such trust isues with me that I don't like to leave the house for fear that she will be worrying if I am with another woman. I have been working out. I run at a little track at the school near our house which has been great.

One of the things I have been working with in counseling is Living in the Moment. Breathing exercises and focusing intently on what is happening around me at this very moment helps keep my mind off of the terrible thing I have done, and helps me to focus on my wife instead of letting my own self disgust get the best of me each day.


----------



## Barnowl

How is it that from the cheater's perspective I can feel so depressed and burdened by the end of my marriage? Was I in the fog, did I truly not know the consequences of my actions? I tell you what, I have never felt like this in my entire life, and I think the hardest part is watching her move on so quickly from me. It makes me wonder if the relationship problems in our marriage were two sided, and now she has found an easy reason to simply walk away from 11 years together, and 6 years married. I guess I always knew deep down that if she found out what a horrible husband I was, then she would bail. That seems to be my reality now, and I am having an extremely difficult time watching my life crumble before my eyes. I wouldn't wish this pain on my enemy.


----------



## eman

Barnowl said:


> How is it that from the cheater's perspective I can feel so depressed and burdened by the end of my marriage? Was I in the fog, did I truly not know the consequences of my actions? I tell you what, I have never felt like this in my entire life, and I think the hardest part is watching her move on so quickly from me. It makes me wonder if the relationship problems in our marriage were two sided, and now she has found an easy reason to simply walk away from 11 years together, and 6 years married. I guess I always knew deep down that if she found out what a horrible husband I was, then she would bail. That seems to be my reality now, and I am having an extremely difficult time watching my life crumble before my eyes. I wouldn't wish this pain on my enemy.


Just know that you aren't alone in that feeling. The words you are saying are as if you're reading my mind about my situation. It really is hard to come to understand the gravity of what the pain can do until you are living it. Try to never give up hope. Keep telling yourself that no matter what happens that you will come out the other side a better person.


----------



## Barnowl

Thanks eman. Today is a hard day because we are in "no contact." Tomorrow is a date night, as well as our 6 year anniversary. Going to be a hard day, but I am going to plan a great date night for us. Hopefully it goes well. Hopefully the no contact day makes her want to talk to me, and doesn't just get her over me faster...I am still fighting for her.


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## Hope1964

So how'd the date go?


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## Barnowl

Ugh, last night was the most difficult night since D-Day. The day was rough, my wife and I spent most of it together jut hanging out at her apartment. We had moments of smiles and happiness, and moments of deep pain. Dinner was really really good. Then we went to a movie and saw, "What to expect when you're expecting". The movie put us both in a funk. We have no children, and the reality that we may not experience the birth of child together really set the tone for the rest of the night. We went back to her place and talked for hours. We talked about my "reasons" for infidelity, and talked about the problems we had in our marriage. We read things she wrote 6 years ago just before our wedding. It was emotional to say the least. Ultimately at the end of the night she told me that she thinks it is over between us, and I left feeling very despondent and disconnected. 

This morning she has been willing to talk to me, and told me she would come to counseling with me again this week, where last night she said she no longer saw the point in marriage counseling. I hope we are just still on the emotional roller coaster. I just feel like one month into this ordeal is too soon to make the decision to cut the chord, but she may need to do that in order to heal. I don't know how tonight will go, but we are supposed to see eachother after work...

I don't know how to accept it being over. I did this to her, to us, and to our family, but at the same time I can not accept that she will not be a part of my life. I didn't know what I had. I couldn't see the forest for the trees. Absolute clarity of what I had, what I want, and what I am losing is driving me insane. Everything is slipping through my fingers so fast, and I am powerless against it. If this is how I feel, I still can't imagine how she feels being the betrayed one. She really deerves better.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Barnowl said:


> She really deserves better.


Yet you are stll hanging on. 

Your actions are not proving how much you love her, they are confirming how much more you love yourself. 

Let her go.


----------



## Barnowl

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Let her go.


Three words that are hard to hear, and insanely hard to act on.


----------



## Barnowl

I have been keeping my distance and letting her control the level of communication. Her mom told her that she feels the marriage is worth saving. That feels like a huge blessing from her, and I was very thankful to my mother-in-law for saying that. The lines of communication are still open, but I am not being as pushy. We may be going to dinner tonight. Just trying to keep things on her timeframe and let her decide what she feels comfortable with in spending time with me. It is hard to be hands-off, but I think it is for the best.


----------



## eman

Barnowl said:


> I have been keeping my distance and letting her control the level of communication. Her mom told her that she feels the marriage is worth saving. That feels like a huge blessing from her, and I was very thankful to my mother-in-law for saying that. The lines of communication are still open, but I am not being as pushy. We may be going to dinner tonight. Just trying to keep things on her timeframe and let her decide what she feels comfortable with in spending time with me. It is hard to be hands-off, but I think it is for the best.


I think as long as she keeps communicating, what you are doing will give her a sense of "control"...but in a good way. Like she can feel that you aren't begging for her but that you are respecting her emotions.


----------



## Barnowl

Exactly what I am going for. Not "going dark" on her, or moving on, or even letting her go, but rather giving her the control in the communication department. It feels like all I can do.


----------



## morituri

So you want to stay in "the friend zone"?


----------



## sinnister

To piggy back a quote from a surprisingly decent Billy Bob Thorton and The Rock movie:

You created your own hell.

If your relationship is meant to be she'll come back. I'm not so sure though...


----------



## Barnowl

I certainly created my own hell. And I am not certain she will come back either.

We are definitely in some alternative universe and not in the "friend zone". I don't want to end up in the friend zone, and she told me that given our long hitory if she is going to leave then we will not be friends because it would be too hard. We are in a transition right now. Not sure to where, but it will eventually be to a better place.


----------



## Barnowl

Counseling last night was not good. It was actually the first session we have had where we didn't both leave feeling better. 

The counselor talked a lot about the "why" question. Why would I cheat, and what led me to cheating. I told her honestly how I felt. I did not offer justifications. I led out with the fact that I am a very selfish person, but I also told her that I resented being turned down for physical affection months at a time. I met my physical need in the wrong way not thinking that anything in our marriage would change, instead of working on the marriage. I own that. I own that choice, and I am working through that with the counselor and with my wife.

My wife did not like that answer at all. She felt blamed for my cheating, which is not what I said at all, but it is how she will forevor take those words...I have seen it on this site time and time again. The cheating is 100% my fault, but the problems in the marriage are 50/50. I don't think she will ever admit to being 50% of the problem in our marriage. I don't think we will be able to rebuild anything if she can't at least say that our physical side of the marriage was terrible. I am willing to admit that I was emotionally detached from her. I own my 50% of the marriage problems, and the 100% of the cheating...she needs to step up to the plate here a bit if she wants anything to work out for us. 

We both left couseling last night feeling that things were pretty much over, and we went home to separate houses, separate beds, and hardly even said good night on the shortest phone call on record in our marriage. She felt entirely blamed for the infidelity, and I feel like she will never accept that we both are at fault for problems in the marriage. She does not want to admit that not having sex with her husband for literally months on end was a problem in the marriage...I don't get it. I probably don't get it because I am the cheater, and I see things differently. Who knows.

Things kind of feel like they are at a stand still. Not really sure where to go from here.


----------



## eman

Barnowl said:


> Counseling last night was not good. It was actually the first session we have had where we didn't both leave feeling better.
> 
> The counselor talked a lot about the "why" question. Why would I cheat, and what led me to cheating. I told her honestly how I felt. I did not offer justifications. I led out with the fact that I am a very selfish person, but I also told her that I resented being turned down for physical affection months at a time. I met my physical need in the wrong way not thinking that anything in our marriage would change, instead of working on the marriage. I own that. I own that choice, and I am working through that with the counselor and with my wife.
> 
> My wife did not like that answer at all. She felt blamed for my cheating, which is not what I said at all, but it is how she will forevor take those words...I have seen it on this site time and time again. The cheating is 100% my fault, but the problems in the marriage are 50/50. I don't think she will ever admit to being 50% of the problem in our marriage. I don't think we will be able to rebuild anything if she can't at least say that our physical side of the marriage was terrible. I am willing to admit that I was emotionally detached from her. I own my 50% of the marriage problems, and the 100% of the cheating...she needs to step up to the plate here a bit if she wants anything to work out for us.
> 
> We both left couseling last night feeling that things were pretty much over, and we went home to separate houses, separate beds, and hardly even said good night on the shortest phone call on record in our marriage. She felt entirely blamed for the infidelity, and I feel like she will never accept that we both are at fault for problems in the marriage. She does not want to admit that not having sex with her husband for literally months on end was a problem in the marriage...I don't get it. I probably don't get it because I am the cheater, and I see things differently. Who knows.
> 
> Things kind of feel like they are at a stand still. Not really sure where to go from here.


I'll be interested to see what others have to say, especially those whose spouses cheated on them. I admitted to cheating on my wife and I do agree with what you said about the marriage and it being 50/50. I'm glad you are owning up to 100% of the infidelity.....I feel the same way with my situation.

Since my wife and I haven't even been able to get to this point of talking about the incident due to her not communicating at all, I don't have much advice other than to keep telling her that you own up to the infidelity. I think she will start to understand. I will take this as a work of caution if/when I'm able to discuss this with my wife.


----------



## Barnowl

eman said:


> I'll be interested to see what others have to say, especially those whose spouses cheated on them. I admitted to cheating on my wife and I do agree with what you said about the marriage and it being 50/50. I'm glad you are owning up to 100% of the infidelity.....I feel the same way with my situation.
> 
> Since my wife and I haven't even been able to get to this point of talking about the incident due to her not communicating at all, I don't have much advice other than to keep telling her that you own up to the infidelity. I think she will start to understand. I will take this as a work of caution if/when I'm able to discuss this with my wife.


I feel really bad for your situation eman. I am so grateful to my wife for speaking to me throughout this. Zero communication would either cause me to resent her, or slowly eat me alive inside. I am not sure where you are on that scale...good luck, and stay positive!


----------



## eman

Barnowl said:


> I feel really bad for your situation eman. I am so grateful to my wife for speaking to me throughout this. Zero communication would either cause me to *resent her, or slowly eat me alive inside*. I am not sure where you are on that scale...good luck, and stay positive!


Although I would replace resent with "starting to get feelings of bitterness", you are dead on. But, like you've stated before, I've created my own hell. I do try my hardest to push those bitter feelings away though.


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## SadSamIAm

Barnowl said:


> Counseling last night was not good. It was actually the first session we have had where we didn't both leave feeling better.
> 
> The counselor talked a lot about the "why" question. Why would I cheat, and what led me to cheating. I told her honestly how I felt. I did not offer justifications. I led out with the fact that I am a very selfish person, but I also told her that I resented being turned down for physical affection months at a time. I met my physical need in the wrong way not thinking that anything in our marriage would change, instead of working on the marriage. I own that. I own that choice, and I am working through that with the counselor and with my wife.
> 
> My wife did not like that answer at all. She felt blamed for my cheating, which is not what I said at all, but it is how she will forevor take those words...I have seen it on this site time and time again. The cheating is 100% my fault, but the problems in the marriage are 50/50. I don't think she will ever admit to being 50% of the problem in our marriage. I don't think we will be able to rebuild anything if she can't at least say that our physical side of the marriage was terrible. I am willing to admit that I was emotionally detached from her. I own my 50% of the marriage problems, and the 100% of the cheating...she needs to step up to the plate here a bit if she wants anything to work out for us.
> 
> We both left couseling last night feeling that things were pretty much over, and we went home to separate houses, separate beds, and hardly even said good night on the shortest phone call on record in our marriage. She felt entirely blamed for the infidelity, and I feel like she will never accept that we both are at fault for problems in the marriage. She does not want to admit that not having sex with her husband for literally months on end was a problem in the marriage...I don't get it. I probably don't get it because I am the cheater, and I see things differently. Who knows.
> 
> Things kind of feel like they are at a stand still. Not really sure where to go from here.


My only advice is to keep saying the affairs is 100% your fault. You made a bad decision. Don't bring up the why again when discussing the cheating. Just take ownership of it.

But you need to talk about her rejection. In a separate discussion about reconciliation. You need to make a decision if you want to reconcile. 

Keep the two discussions separate.


----------



## eman

SadSamIAm said:


> My only advice is to keep saying the affairs is 100% your fault. You made a bad decision. Don't bring up the why again when discussing the cheating. Just take ownership of it.
> 
> But you need to talk about her rejection. In a separate discussion about reconciliation. You need to make a decision if you want to reconcile.
> 
> Keep the two discussions separate.


Thats a good way to go about it as long as she allows it.


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## Vanguard

Thank the Lord that you have another ****ing chance. My wife cheated and left- I was given no opportunity to salvage things. I was afforded no luxury of a second chance, even when it was she who committed the sin. 

You count your goddamn blessings and lick that woman's toes for the rest of your life.


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## EleGirl

Barnowl said:


> Counseling last night was not good. It was actually the first session we have had where we didn't both leave feeling better.
> 
> The counselor talked a lot about the "why" question. Why would I cheat, and what led me to cheating. I told her honestly how I felt. I did not offer justifications. I led out with the fact that I am a very selfish person, but I also told her that I resented being turned down for physical affection months at a time. I met my physical need in the wrong way not thinking that anything in our marriage would change, instead of working on the marriage. I own that. I own that choice, and I am working through that with the counselor and with my wife.
> 
> My wife did not like that answer at all. She felt blamed for my cheating, which is not what I said at all, but it is how she will forevor take those words...I have seen it on this site time and time again. The cheating is 100% my fault, but the problems in the marriage are 50/50. I don't think she will ever admit to being 50% of the problem in our marriage. I don't think we will be able to rebuild anything if she can't at least say that our physical side of the marriage was terrible. I am willing to admit that I was emotionally detached from her. I own my 50% of the marriage problems, and the 100% of the cheating...she needs to step up to the plate here a bit if she wants anything to work out for us.
> 
> We both left couseling last night feeling that things were pretty much over, and we went home to separate houses, separate beds, and hardly even said good night on the shortest phone call on record in our marriage. She felt entirely blamed for the infidelity, and I feel like she will never accept that we both are at fault for problems in the marriage. She does not want to admit that not having sex with her husband for literally months on end was a problem in the marriage...I don't get it. I probably don't get it because I am the cheater, and I see things differently. Who knows.
> 
> Things kind of feel like they are at a stand still. Not really sure where to go from here.


Good for you for owning up your cheating 100%.

Hopefully your wife will come around and understand that withholding sex is a form a emotional abuse. I can understand that she might have felt that something was missing in your marriage. So she pulled away from you. But she had as much responsibility as you did to work on the marriage when a problem occurred. If she felt that you were not meeting her needs, then she needed to tell you what needs were not being met and how she needed them met.

I have read that a lot of affairs take the form of a pressure release for the marriage. The cheater goes outside the marriage so that neither spouse has to deal with the marital issues. Once the affair is discovered, generally the couple is forced to either split or to deal with their issues finally.


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## eowyn

Barnowl said:


> Counseling last night was not good. It was actually the first session we have had where we didn't both leave feeling better.
> 
> The counselor talked a lot about the "why" question. Why would I cheat, and what led me to cheating. I told her honestly how I felt. I did not offer justifications. I led out with the fact that I am a very selfish person, but I also told her that I resented being turned down for physical affection months at a time. I met my physical need in the wrong way not thinking that anything in our marriage would change, instead of working on the marriage. I own that. I own that choice, and I am working through that with the counselor and with my wife.
> 
> My wife did not like that answer at all. She felt blamed for my cheating, which is not what I said at all, but it is how she will forevor take those words...I have seen it on this site time and time again. The cheating is 100% my fault, but the problems in the marriage are 50/50. I don't think she will ever admit to being 50% of the problem in our marriage. I don't think we will be able to rebuild anything if she can't at least say that our physical side of the marriage was terrible. I am willing to admit that I was emotionally detached from her. I own my 50% of the marriage problems, and the 100% of the cheating...she needs to step up to the plate here a bit if she wants anything to work out for us.
> 
> We both left couseling last night feeling that things were pretty much over, and we went home to separate houses, separate beds, and hardly even said good night on the shortest phone call on record in our marriage. She felt entirely blamed for the infidelity, and I feel like she will never accept that we both are at fault for problems in the marriage. She does not want to admit that not having sex with her husband for literally months on end was a problem in the marriage...I don't get it. I probably don't get it because I am the cheater, and I see things differently. Who knows.
> 
> Things kind of feel like they are at a stand still. Not really sure where to go from here.


Never been to a counselor but I think it was a bad strategy to bring it up so early as to what caused you to cheat. I agree that marriage issues wld be 50/50 problem. However this was probably not the best time to pull that thread. 

I guess the main thing right now is to heal her pain and bring back the trust and faith little by little. Fixing the marriage issues as they were before cheating should not have been on the radar right now. Any insinuation that she is to blame for what happened would be like ripping off the bandage before the wound is healed. When a spouse cheats, I imagine, not only is the trust and faith lost, but also ones pride and self-esteem suffers as well. The wife should have been kept away from any blame or criticism. Not just that, such discussion focused on the cheating episode would have probably brought back bitter memories for her. Again, probably too early for that..

I think it was a bad move by the counselor. Any "whys" about the cheating is bound to cause some finger pointing, at least little bit. And that should not have been the agenda. I am no expert, so ask for advice from people.. but in my opinion you might want to change the counselor. I think he should be talking more about "How" to deal with this rather than "Why" you cheated and other post mortem discussion.


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## eman

Barnowl I hope things are going better. Keep your patience with your wife as it's hard to imagine the pain she feels. I have never had to be this patient in my life. I have really hurt my wife and I am paying for that dearly by not being able to see or hear from her.


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## Barnowl

eman said:


> Barnowl I hope things are going better. Keep your patience with your wife as it's hard to imagine the pain she feels. I have never had to be this patient in my life. I have really hurt my wife and I am paying for that dearly by not being able to see or hear from her.


My wife still talks to me, and we have had some really good days lately. It is still touch and go, but the communication is there which I am so grateful for. Not being able to talk to her kills me. She woke up in a good mood today, and wants to have lunch today. I am hopeful that we maintain the good days for as long as possible.


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> Counseling last night was not good. It was actually the first session we have had where we didn't both leave feeling better.
> 
> The counselor talked a lot about the "why" question. Why would I cheat, and what led me to cheating. I told her honestly how I felt. I did not offer justifications. I led out with the fact that I am a very selfish person, but I also told her that I resented being turned down for physical affection months at a time. I met my physical need in the wrong way not thinking that anything in our marriage would change, instead of working on the marriage. I own that. I own that choice, and I am working through that with the counselor and with my wife.
> 
> My wife did not like that answer at all. She felt blamed for my cheating, which is not what I said at all, but it is how she will forevor take those words...I have seen it on this site time and time again. The cheating is 100% my fault, but the problems in the marriage are 50/50. I don't think she will ever admit to being 50% of the problem in our marriage. I don't think we will be able to rebuild anything if she can't at least say that our physical side of the marriage was terrible. I am willing to admit that I was emotionally detached from her. I own my 50% of the marriage problems, and the 100% of the cheating...she needs to step up to the plate here a bit if she wants anything to work out for us.
> 
> We both left couseling last night feeling that things were pretty much over, and we went home to separate houses, separate beds, and hardly even said good night on the shortest phone call on record in our marriage. She felt entirely blamed for the infidelity, and I feel like she will never accept that we both are at fault for problems in the marriage. She does not want to admit that not having sex with her husband for literally months on end was a problem in the marriage...I don't get it. I probably don't get it because I am the cheater, and I see things differently. Who knows.
> 
> Things kind of feel like they are at a stand still. Not really sure where to go from here.


Barnowl:

If your wife was withholding sex for reasons she refused to discuss, counseling should have been your first choice not an affair.

As I mentioned prior when a wife pulls away sexually, it may be that she senses and affair or a disconnect. 

Also are you sure SHE pulled away first.

My husband tried to pin the disinterest in sex thing on me. But it was actually he who was the one with the Low Sex drive, at least in the relationship. 

I did pull away during his affair because I sensed a huge disconnect. 

He also tried to pin other things on me such as not wanting to travel. That too was total hogwash because while he was in the affair, I wanted to go to New Zealand because a friend had raved about it. 

You know what he said? He said I was trying to keep up with the Joneses? Huh, WTF.

Also, he told several MCs, that he liked to dine out often and I did not. 

That's more hogwash. I was good either way. I was conserving our spending because he was complaining about money and needing to save to start another business. 

In reality he likely needed me to conserve money so he had more for the expensive dinners and trips he took the OW on. 

So, when you say things, please ensure that you have first thoroughly searched your soul and know that the things you say are truly true, and not simply justifications manufactured to make you appear less guilty.

If the reasons for your straying are true, still do not blame her yet. Work on salvaging the marriage first and your blame

Then later the counselor can bring up he part, later much later.


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## Barnowl

Thanks for your advice Sara. I did not do well in counseling coming across as understanding that my emotional detachment added to the lack of intimacy in our marriage. My wife and I have talked at leangth about it, and really the majority of the issues with our physical relationship revolves around how emotionally available I am to her. I certainly don't have a low sex drive issue, and when I am emotionally available and open, things are amazing. Now that I know this is a major player in our relationship, I have something tangible that I can do to help that situation for us both. During the past 6 weeks we have been closer at times than we have for years, and I see how amazing our relationship can be if we can get through this together.

I didn't blame her in any way, nor did I make up excuses for my actions. The hard reality is that I am a selfish person. Counseling has been really good for us, and I am looking forward to this week's meeting.


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## eman

Barnowl said:


> Thanks for your advice Sara. I did not do well in counseling coming across as understanding that my emotional detachment added to the lack of intimacy in our marriage. My wife and I have talked at leangth about it, and really the majority of the issues with our physical relationship revolves around how emotionally available I am to her. I certainly don't have a low sex drive issue, and when I am emotionally available and open, things are amazing. Now that I know this is a major player in our relationship, I have something tangible that I can do to help that situation for us both. During the past 6 weeks we have been closer at times than we have for years, and I see how amazing our relationship can be if we can get through this together.
> 
> I didn't blame her in any way, nor did I make up excuses for my actions. The hard reality is that I am a *selfish person*. Counseling has been really good for us, and I am looking forward to this week's meeting.


Good for you for admitting your selfishness. If I could have admitted this months ago, I probably could have avoided cheating. I feel that my selfishness really brought me down. Keep working things out barnowl.


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## Barnowl

Once again, we are riding the emotional rollercoaster. Last night was a big drop, then this morning it feels like things have been leveling out, and hopefully moving back up. Counseling tonight will hopefully be positive and put us back on an uphill swing. Two steps forward, one step back. We are in week 6 past D-Day. With the heightened awareness, and constantly feeling "on-guard" the past 6 weeks have been the longest of my life. It feels like months have gone by. I wonder how long it takes until the hyper-sensitivity calms down, and you begin to feel "normal" during the day or during the night trying to sleep. I think I need to get more sleep...


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## cpacan

Barnowl said:


> Once again, we are riding the emotional rollercoaster. Last night was a big drop, then this morning it feels like things have been leveling out, and hopefully moving back up. Counseling tonight will hopefully be positive and put us back on an uphill swing. Two steps forward, one step back. We are in week 6 past D-Day. With the heightened awareness, and constantly feeling "on-guard" the past 6 weeks have been the longest of my life. It feels like months have gone by. I wonder how long it takes until the hyper-sensitivity calms down, and you begin to feel "normal" during the day or during the night trying to sleep. I think I need to get more sleep...


I would prepare for the longest year or two of your life. Things can seem to go well and then suddenly explode in your hands. The limbic system will not forget that easy what and who caused the pain.

But hang in, you are starting off well. I only envy your wife, that you actually take the blame and responsibility. That will make it easier.


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## Barnowl

I am not good at this. Not good at all. I say the wrong thing. I don't act the way I should. My wife thinks I am pushing her away. This is insane, and difficult, and get wrenching, and I am so so so tired. 

Counseling was ok. He gave us some things to work on to help me better understand my wife's needs and feelings. She left feeling completely grilled with questions, and she feels like she is the one who is in the wrong now, especially with her actions regarding the other guy she is talking to and hanging out with. She still insists they are just friends, but it pisses her off that I am the one who cheated, and now we just spent nearly an entire counseling session talking about her and what she is doing.

I don't know how to keep this up...but my only other option is not having her in my life which causes even more pain within me.


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - don't give up! Of course it is hard, but if you love your wife and want to make it right, it is not going to be easy, but it will be worth it when you make it through this mess. My husband cheated on me, and we are 3 months out from final DD (it took him 5 times to get his head out of his butt with this affair). Do I want him to feel my pain, yes, but I also don't want him to quit. I married him...I love him...and I hate him at the same time. It should not be easy, and I want it to be because I never want him to ever feel like cheating is an option or him ever allowing himself to even start flirting is an option....none of this is OK. For me, I want a man who is going to fight for his family, not give up like he did when he cheated. In my eyes, he threw me and his children away. I am giving him a last chance, but it should not be easy, and believe me, it is so not easy being the BS. Man up, suck it up, love your wife and give her 100% more effort than you did the OW. Nothing stings more than to know that the WS was willing to give everything for the OW but is not willing to do the same for his family once he realizes how great it really is. Just be there.


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## eman

LookingForTheSun said:


> Barnowl - don't give up! Of course it is hard, but if you love your wife and want to make it right, it is not going to be easy, but it will be worth it when you make it through this mess. My husband cheated on me, and we are 3 months out from final DD (it took him 5 times to get his head out of his butt with this affair). Do I want him to feel my pain, yes, but I also don't want him to quit. I married him...I love him...and I hate him at the same time. It should not be easy, and I want it to be because I never want him to ever feel like cheating is an option or him ever allowing himself to even start flirting is an option....none of this is OK. For me, I want a man who is going to fight for his family, not give up like he did when he cheated. In my eyes, he threw me and his children away. I am giving him a last chance, but it should not be easy, and believe me, it is so not easy being the BS. Man up, suck it up, love your wife and give her 100% more effort than you did the OW. Nothing stings more than to know that the WS was willing to give everything for the OW but is not willing to do the same for his family once he realizes how great it really is. Just be there.


LookingForTheSun, I wish you could talk to my BW  I can't tell what I'm supposed to do! 

BarnOwl, hang in there buddy!


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## Barnowl

Thank you LookingForTheSun. I think you and my wife are on the same page. I believe that she does want me to fight. She told me she doesn't want a divorce. It scares her that I have changed my behavior so much to aomodate her and spend time with her when I was so disconnected before, but I have to keep pushing forward. I will keep fighting. Your words are inspiring to me to just keep being a good husband, being there for her, and doing anything I can.


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## badbane

have you thought about surprising her at her apartment. Take her on a movie date or something you did when things were good. Before all of the affairs and marital problems. Something that ties into that things were not always this bad.

It has to be spontaneous you're going for shock and awe here.


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## LookingForTheSun

Eman - I wish I had more words of wisdom. For sure that is what I want - for him to be strong and man up, to fight for me, to fight for us and not give up. However, I am back on TAM after a break, going through emotions and issues that I thought I had overcome. Him being strong and fighting is the one constant though. I don't think we could be in R this time if he did not start to make effort. Upon last DD, he answered a bunch of really hard questions (for both of us), and a couple of days later when I had more, made a statement that he did not know how much longer he could do that because it just hurt so much - hurt him is what it was, because if I did not think I could take it or did not want to know I would not ask and I am still here. I am back in a slump where I don't know if I want revenge on the OW, to expose her to her inner circle, just mad at him again, or not feeling like he is doing all that he could/should. I am probably more forgiving than most, understanding that he is/was going through emotions/withdrawals.

No contact is just not enough after an affair. A man needs to step up and "court" his wife again, make her like him again and eventually fall in love again. Yes, you can love someone without being in love with them - which is probably why a lot of people stray but decide to stay. If there was no love, there would be no hope. 

But from my point of view as a BS and what I am needing (and we never separated - stayed in the same house because I did not feel that separation would be good, nor did I trust him), I want him to continue to fight for us, no matter how dark it gets, because I know it is way darker where I am than he could ever imagine. So, if you screwed up and are truly remorseful and truly love your wife, sacrifice yourself and fight for her. If you don't win her over in the end, at least you know that you tried to do right after you did wrong. For her, it is her choice now to decide if she wants to give it one last try, but don't fake it and don't get lazy. Be real and give her what she deserves.


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## Zanna

Barnowl, it sounds like you're on the right track. Keep showing your wife that you're in this for the long haul and I think she will eventually realize that your changes are here to stay. It does appear that she still loves you but the pain of betrayal is overwhelming. She needs time to make sense of it all.

Sadly, I understand what your wife is going through and it's heart-wrenching stuff. 

Anyway, just wanted to pass some information on to you. My H is reading this book right now. It's an easy read but it summarizes pretty much everything you need to know to help your wife heal.


Amazon.com: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Linda J. MacDonald: Books


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## Barnowl

Zanna said:


> Amazon.com: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Linda J. MacDonald: Books


Thank you. I will look the book up. If the library has it then I will grab it right now.

Library doesn't have it, but I next-day shipped it from Amazon. I also read the entire "Look Inside" section on Amazon, and it looks good. It immediately re-enforced some of the things I am doing, and I see that some things I have done are not doing me well. Thanks for the suggestion, I have been hungry to digest as muh reading material about this topic as I can. I probably spend an unhealthy amount of time in these forums too...I just can't seem to keep my mind from racing and working out how I am going to do this for my wife. How I will become the man that she needs. How do I reconcile in the "right" way...Just keep focused I guess. One day at a time.


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - it is tough being in our shoes - we don't know if the husband is sincere or just doing enough to get by for now, or just in it to "do the right thing". For me, the right thing is because he loves me, wants to spend his life with me and knows how wrong he was and totally gets it and is no longer in the "fog".

I told him that I needed to be complimented, held, a hug or whisper for no reason....that I needed him to pursue me and show me he is interested in me, no longer that I am the one giving in by hysterical bonding. I had a trigger about 2 weeks ago, and he broke down because he knows he caused it and he can't ever erase it - this is now a part of our lives....well, I got in front of him and told him this - that while I wish he would have done something differently, he didn't, and that is our reality. However, if we can take anything from this affair and make us better, it is that it happened now, and this may have been the one that finally woke him up to what it means to be a family man, a good husband, a good father and a good person, the kind of human being that he has the potential to be. That we both know not to take each other for granted and to keep communication open. If it did not happen now, it would have happened at some point further down the road - when our girls would know what was going on - when there may not be a chance for us, when I might not want to try. 

I know it was not my fault. I never once doubted myself, because I don't hold in my feelings so whenever I thought we were in a rut I told him so and he said he thought we were ok - he had affair baggage he was carrying around our whole marriage. I told him he needed to let it go and give 100% to us now. He said he is giving 100%, but he can't forgive himself - I know and feel that this is holding him back. And because of that, I get into my funks like where I am now, wondering if that is all.

I think he is lost, not knowing what to do, and because of that, not doing what he needs to besides the transparency and NC. Basically if you cheated on your spouse, you need to start over, no matter how many years you have been together. I know I have changed. It is a chance to get to know each other again like from the very start...its harder because you have everyday life and history, but you have to try to make it fresh again.


----------



## eman

Zanna said:


> Barnowl, it sounds like you're on the right track. Keep showing your wife that you're in this for the long haul and I think she will eventually realize that your changes are here to stay. It does appear that she still loves you but the pain of betrayal is overwhelming. She needs time to make sense of it all.
> 
> Sadly, I understand what your wife is going through and it's heart-wrenching stuff.
> 
> Anyway, just wanted to pass some information on to you. My H is reading this book right now. It's an easy read but it summarizes pretty much everything you need to know to help your wife heal.
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful: Linda J. MacDonald: Books


I'll have to check this out as well!

Sorry Barnowl....not trying to hijack your thread


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## Zanna

I'm glad you ordered the book, Barnowl. It's a quick read. I read it in one night.

It condenses a lot of the material you might have read on the forum and then some, so I think you'll find it very helpful.


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## Barnowl

Hijack away eman! This is a very supportive forum, so get everything you can out of these threads. I spent double the book's cost on shipping, but I plan on reading it this weekend while my wife is away on a trip with some girlfriends that she has been planning for a while now. When she gets back, I hope that I will have some tools and answers to really make next week great for both of us.

Looking - I really appreciate your perspective. It sounds so similar to my wife's, except you have raeched a level of forgiveness that she is not ready to extend to me yet. Everything else is word for word. My wife wants me to court her, date her, make her feel cherished, and she also shares your sentiments and questions about whether I am doing this because I got caught, or because I really want our marriage to work out.

She told me at first that I was "saving face" by sticking around, and I need to prove to her that is not the case. I have no face to save. I have nothing except for my actions from this moment forward to show her who I am and who I can be.

I am able to closely relate to your husband with the guilt and self-deprication. I look in the mirror and see the man who betrayed my wife, and I am sick with guilt and inward hatred. I need to get past this, but it is difficult. To quote the movie Devil's Advocate, "Guilt is like a bag of bricks, all you have to do is put it down"...but that is so much easier said than done. Without my guilt looming, I would be able to be a better husband right now. The selfishness of the affair, and my own struggles with self indulgent behavior in general make it hard for me to step away from my own pain and really put my all into understanding my wife's pain. Growing as a human being, and becoming more empathetic will be a huge stop in this process for me.

Understanding my wife more fully was the crux of last night's counseling session, and I feel prepared to really get to the bottom of how she is feeling, and what I need to do to help her work through those emotions. I know I can be a good husband, and above that, I know I can be HER good husband. It will take time and time and time in order to prove to her that my actions are genuine, that my feelings are real, and that I am truly in our marriage 100%. 

Your comments are boosting my spirits, so thank you. I appreciate the support of this forum, especially since I am one of the minority betraying parties posting here. It really helps a lot.


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## cpacan

Barnowl said:


> Hijack away eman! This is a very supportive forum, so get everything you can out of these threads. I spent double the book's cost on shipping, but I plan on reading it this weekend while my wife is away on a trip with some girlfriends that she has been planning for a while now. When she gets back, I hope that I will have some tools and answers to really make next week great for both of us.
> 
> Looking - I really appreciate your perspective. It sounds so similar to my wife's, except you have raeched a level of forgiveness that she is not ready to extend to me yet. Everything else is word for word. My wife wants me to court her, date her, make her feel cherished, and she also shares your sentiments and questions about whether I am doing this because I got caught, or because I really want our marriage to work out.
> 
> She told me at first that I was "saving face" by sticking around, and I need to prove to her that is not the case. I have no face to save. I have nothing except for my actions from this moment forward to show her who I am and who I can be.
> 
> I am able to closely relate to your husband with the guilt and self-deprication. I look in the mirror and see the man who betrayed my wife, and I am sick with guilt and inward hatred. I need to get past this, but it is difficult. To quote the movie Devil's Advocate, "Guilt is like a bag of bricks, all you have to do is put it down"...but that is so much easier said than done. Without my guilt looming, I would be able to be a better husband right now. The selfishness of the affair, and my own struggles with self indulgent behavior in general make it hard for me to step away from my own pain and really put my all into understanding my wife's pain. Growing as a human being, and becoming more empathetic will be a huge stop in this process for me.
> 
> Understanding my wife more fully was the crux of last night's counseling session, and I feel prepared to really get to the bottom of how she is feeling, and what I need to do to help her work through those emotions. I know I can be a good husband, and above that, I know I can be HER good husband. It will take time and time and time in order to prove to her that my actions are genuine, that my feelings are real, and that I am truly in our marriage 100%.
> 
> Your comments are boosting my spirits, so thank you. I appreciate the support of this forum, especially since I am one of the minority betraying parties posting here. It really helps a lot.


Minority? Yes indeed. Not many waywards shows signs of remorse and guilt the way you do.
Keep up the work.


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## LookingForTheSun

"I have nothing except for my actions from this moment forward to show her who I am and who I can be."

Barnowl - my husband basically said the same thing to me, and you telling me how you can't stand to look in the mirror and know that you are not giving as much as you want because of your own guilt and remorse gives me hope - that truly that may be all that is going on with him and if he can get past that, then things will go from good to great.

He said that he knows he cheated and lied and f***ed me over and that is sometimes too much to bear, but that he would spend the rest of his life giving us and me and our girls a good life and the life we deserve. I have said it once and I will say it again - if I only had one true DD to deal with and he did not go back and forth, I might be able to heal faster, but his constant lies made him the boy who cried wolf and hard to believe. He understands it is hard for me to believe him, but at the same time he has a difficult time with it.

I am forgiving, but I am not forgetful. My actions are based on what he has taught me through all of this. Had he handles it differntly, than maybe I wuld be reacting differently. He he comes out of his coma and courts me all over again, he will also reap the rewards of my reactions to that.

With that said, we are set to take a cruise next month for 5 days and the kids will be with family for a few weeks. I am praying that we will have an awakening where we both see something new and great in each other and can't live without each other....a girl can always hope.


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## LookingForTheSun

sorry about the typing and spelling - need to do spell check next time

On another note - I didn't see how long your affair went on for, but I have pointed out to my husband that whatever feelings I am going through, he needs to cut me some slack - he carried on for 5 months and it has only been 3 months without contact....I think I am doing pretty darn good considering. Cut your wife slack too.


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## Barnowl

LookingForTheSun said:


> With that said, we are set to take a cruise next month for 5 days and the kids will be with family for a few weeks. I am praying that we will have an awakening where we both see something new and great in each other and can't live without each other....a girl can always hope.


Good luck on your cruise! My wife and I have a vacation planned at the end of July that we are both a little gunshy about really going on. We will be two and half months past DDay at that point, and I have no clue where we will be emotionally and mentally with eachother at that point. We are playing it by ear. My EA went on for three years...that is embarrassing to write, but for half of my marriage I have had another person dragged along through emails and infrequent in-person interaction. I don't know why the hell it went on so long, but it just did. I was in the fog, or in a rut, but mostly just too selfish to let it go and focus on my wife. Selfishness takes a toll. I have been entirely self-centered for a long time. 

cpacan - Thanks for the kind words. I am remorseful, and I want to do everything right. Sometimes I think I am pushing her away, and she feels that too, but then I try twice as hard to pull her in. Walking the fine line between becoming a grovelling door mat, and someone who she can respect is really difficult. 

This is just hard all around I think. I just want to be there for her. To love her, and to hold her. I want the self-loathing to go away. If I can get passed that, then I know I will be better with the reconiliation efforts.


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## Barnowl

I dropped flowers off at her apartment on my lunch break with a little note telling her to have fun with her friends tonight, and that I want to see her tomorrow. Hopefully the little things don't go unnoticed, and it makes her smile.


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## loveisforever

Good to make your marriage work again. Try your best, man.


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## Barnowl

So update...and please offer advice...

Wife hung out with the other guy, the "just a friend". Up until now when they have hung out they have always sat separately, never touched, etc, just "hung out"...or at least that is what I have heard.

Today I ask her how they sat last night during the movie, they sat on the loveseat right by eachother, I jokingly ask about hand holding, and she says YES they did. So they are now being both physically and emotionally close. This changes the entire dynamic of their relationship, and she can never tell me they are "just friends" again. I am angry and hurt, and I knew it was coming, but I didn't think that six weeks from DDay she would be already getting physically close to another man. It is only a matter of time before she goes fully physicaly with him, and that is something that I won't be able to tolerate while we are married...even if it is just a paper marriage at this point. This was not a part of our discussed "separation agreement" but she told me, "it just sort of happened..." Yeah it is funny how easy that happens isn't it!? Maybe she understands now that when a spouse refuses sex for three years, these things an "just happen". In my case, I seeked it out, but this feels very similar. She is betrayed feeling, and now all of a sudden, things just happen...

I feel like she is just walking away now. I almost want to just implement the 180 myself. Stop with all of the transparency and remorse, and just give her a bit of a cold shoulder. A reconciliation won't mean anything if she just wants to be with another man, which she clearly does. Perhaps it is time to just man-up and file for divorce like I should have done three years ago before I went the infidelity route.

Just "a cheater's perspective"...but I have never wanted to contact the OW so bad in my life!! I feel a relapse coming just so I can talk to someone. I am fighting the urge, but it is so damn tempting to send her an email...especially since my "wife" is going to be gone for three days out of town. And the fact that she is now (in my opinion) actually dating the other guy.

Ugh!! This sucks. It sucks the most because I am the damn cause of it all too!!


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## LookingForTheSun

Don't do it!!!!!!!


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## Barnowl

LookingForTheSun said:


> Don't do it!!!!!!!


Don't do what? File for Divorce? Implement the 180? Call the sonofab*tch who put his hands on my wife? Throw a brick through a window? Punch something? 

These are all seeming like good options right now...what the hell am I supposed to do? I am so so so angry right now. And the craziest part is that I am intensely angry with ME! Internal anger is the worst, because I can't just walk away from myself...I am sitting right here just boiling about this.


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## LookingForTheSun

If you truly love your wife, you will do whatever you have to to win her back. Remember - you did this to her - and I know exactly what she is feeling - like her world has been turned upside down, like death happened all around her - very angry, very hurt, and yes, wanting you to feel the same pain - and now you have just a glimpse of it. Nothing may have happened yet - she may just be trying to make you feel some of the same that you inflicted on her - I thought about it, but never did it. I lied to him and told him that I had an affair to - crafted a crazy story just to see his reaction. He didn't buy it, but I wanted him too, just so I could cause him some pain too. Unless you are the betrayed spouse, you just have no idea how dark and bad it feels. I am pulling for you, but don't contact the OW again - you would be doing it because you are angry and wanting to inflict more pain on your wife - that is pretty crappy in my opinion - and I know that too, because until my husband stopped contating the OW, he called her every time we had an arguement...how sh***y....we are arguing because I am in pain because of what he did and he seeks the comfort of the skank who knowingly had an affair with a married man with small children....makes me sick to think about it really....please don't do it.


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## LookingForTheSun

I did not catch the last sentence "It sucks the most because I am the damn cause of it all too!! "....same thing my husband says all of the time.

You did cause it, but if you love your wife, you will let her work it out. If she makes bad choices and ends up cheating on you....you will know what it feels like, but that would not be the right thing to do on her part. 

What you can do is tell her that you know what a dirtbag you were, how you screwed up so bad and how you are desperate to make things right and be the man that she deserves. Tell her that you know that you have no right to request that she remain faithful, but please do so for the sake of R. No one wants to have that on their concience. Stay the course! I am only 3.5 months out from last contact and 5th DD, 6.5 months out from DD 1...give it just a bit more time. It s*cks and turns your stomach and you can't breath, but she felt it even worse. Wait.


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## Barnowl

Yeah, I won't contact the OW. It would just salt the already open wounds. My wife made it clear in a few different arguments that she wants to sleep with someone else. I believe this will be the guy...as insane as that sounds, I am calling it right here and right now, and I will follow up the thread to see if it happens. She seems emotionally ready, and now physically comfortable enough with him to cuddle up and hold hands. She needs a high level of emotional connection to get physical, and this guy just pushes all of the right buttons for her. 

It sucks, but it is true. I am watching the demise of my marriage, and I am powerless to her actions.


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## LookingForTheSun

and just an FYI...knowing that my husband kept contacting the OW after he said he stopped hurts more than finding out about the affair in the first place. It is like twisting a knife in an open would, around and around, dousing it with gasoline and setting it on fire...sorry, don't want you to feel bad, that is just the ugly truth and I hope you make the right choice. Again, I am pulling for you


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## Barnowl

I quit making the "right choice" a long time ago. I can't even focus. I am shaking at work. It just feels all downhill from here. I won't be able to process her having a revenge affair. This is just nuts...


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## LookingForTheSun

You don't know she is going to have an affair. She is hurting. She most likely wants you to hurt too. I don't know what your wif eis like, but I know what it is like to be cheated on - 3 times. Your comments sound a lot like my husbands, only you are really seem to be bending over backwards and want to truly fight. Kudos to you. I am waiting for my husband to get through his depression about this and kick it up a notch.

One thing he is still not good at - telling me exactly what is going through his head. I know thigs are not always OK, and I truly want to hear that. I would almost believe him more if he threw in some bad news - not that I want bad news :-( I just know my feelings have been all over the place, so I am sure his are too - obviously - he said he hates himself and doesn't know how to make it up to me and can't change it and that kills him.

On that note - tell her you are a mess - that you unsderstand her needing to get her witts about her and feeling like she hates you, but that it is killing you because you really want a last chance, and seeing her with another man and thinking of her with another man has broken you...you get it...you hurt her and you will give your manhood on a platter to prove you will never stray again and only want her for life.....that is what I would want to hear - but that is me - she may be different - but you have nothing to lose at this point and everything to get back.


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## LookingForTheSun

And start making the right choices - stop screwing up and you will feel better about yourself. No one can do the right thing for you, and to say you are just a bad person and have always made bad mistakes - that is lame. My husband said something like that too...when you know you are a bad person, you just keep living, knowing that you are bad, but when you are a bad person trying to do the right thing, it is so hard. You really want to, but it takes some work. Don't let this define you for the rest of your life. Start the change now.


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## Barnowl

My wife is officially away for a "girls weekend". We have been texting randomly. Most of it was really bad, and I was an ******* to her about the other guy. I told her I was going to date people too, and that really made her mad at me because I have already been-there, done-that in the marriage. 

This is so damn hard. I need to be a stand-up marriage-rebuilding guy, and I am struggling. I really am selfish. It is hard for me to disconnect from my own pity long enough to truly see the pain that she is going through. 

Need to be strong, need to be resilient. We both can get through this. I can be the strong supportive husband she needs. I can do it. I can.


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## EleGirl

Barnowl said:


> I quit making the "right choice" a long time ago. I can't even focus. I am shaking at work. It just feels all downhill from here. I won't be able to process her having a revenge affair. This is just nuts...


My husband had an affair years ago. 

I recall telling him that I had a strong urge to have an affair to even things out.

His response was that if I cheated he could not handle it and my having an affair would be unforgivable. 

But he wanted me to forgive him for the same thing :scratchhead:

That pissed me off.


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## Barnowl

EleGirl said:


> His response was that if I cheated he could not handle it and my having an affair would be unforgivable.
> 
> But he wanted me to forgive him for the same thing :scratchhead:
> 
> That pissed me off.


Yeah, it is a head scratcher to me too, and makes me sick with anticipation and anxiety for the day that my separated wife tells me she slept with someone. I am the one in the wrong, I stepped out of my marriage, yet I still want her to be faithful to me. It makes no sense. Nothing makes sense right now!!


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## LookingForTheSun

ok - how about this - since you have already been sending random texts, send her one last one..."I am sorry. I was an a-hole. I know I am the one who screwed up and I had no right to talk to you that way or even ask you to not see other people. I know you are hurting, and I am in a really dark place now because of what I did. I am truly sorry and don't think I will ever forgive myself. I could not see it before, but it is unmistakeably clear to me now that I don't want to spend another day without you. I will not see other people - I was hurting when I said that - sad, I know, and I hope that one day you can find it in your heart to give me one last chance to prove to you that I love you, only you, and want to spend every second of my life provong that to you. I am sorry about tonight. Please be safe, have fun, and I love you.

Just a thought from a girl in a similar boat as your wife. I don't know if you have read my story, but it is pretty crappy and I am still taking it one day at a time, but with all I have been dealt, my husband just fell asleep on me while we watched an NCIS marathon in bed....and I was setting my alarm and had an urge to check on here....so there are my two cents. Try to stay positive, but you do owe her an apology for tonight. Text her once and then leave the ball in her court.


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## eman

Stay strong Barnowl. Your wife is trying to sort out all of her emotions. Hopefully she comes to her senses and realizes that another man won't make her pain just disappear. I know how you feel.....if my wife came to me right now and told my she slept with some guy to get back at me I would just die inside.

I hate weekend mornings now. I wake up with so much anxiety wondering about my wife. I think I get the anxiety because I'm not busy getting ready for work like I am during the week. So I come here for support.

Infidelity is such an ugly, ugly thing. How is it so hard to see that before the act is done??


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## Barnowl

I am dreading tomorrow when she comes home and we have a talk about our future. Is it time to let go? Do I keep fighting for her, even though she is going to go out and date, and probably have sex with someone else? I feel like this is a crossroads, and I don't know what to do. I certainly don't want to remain in the marriage we had, but I know that it can be fulfilling and amazing...I just don't know what to do. I am sick about it.


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## LookingForTheSun

Are you seriously considering throwing in the towel? If yes, you care more about yourself than her and you really don't love her. You are barely into this - it is not supposed to be easy. The more it hurts, the more you love - I have figured that out. She has a right to figure this out too - you destroyed her reality and your marriage - you need to rebuild it. I think she deserves a little slack for what you did to her behind her back. She may make some small mistakes or she may make a huge mistake, but to give up before you even know, to give up on the one that you said you wanted to spend the rest of your life with....get over yourself and focus on her...sorry, but you have too. I have screamed that at my husband many times - "stop feeling sorry for yourself - you did this - there is no excuse - you caused this - this never should have happened." I am still pulling for you - sorry to be so harsh - but snap out of it!


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## Barnowl

Considering it? Yes. I have been doing a lot of thinking, and I cannot go back to the marriage I was in. My wife does not feel like she was any part of the problem, and has laid blame on me for any and every problem in our marriage. That isn't a healthy way to being reconciliation. I am going to let her go out and make "mistakes" as you call them. If by some chance she wants to be with me again in the future, then I would certainly go for it, but things would need to be significantly different, and right now, I do not see anything changing. I am sad and sick and shaking right now, but I think letting her go is my best and only option at this time...I will update tomorrow after we talk.


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## happyman64

Barnowl,

Looking has a good point on how to fight for your marriage.

But Pitt also had good advice "Just Let Her Go".

And if your wife feels there was nothing wrong with your marriage you will have to let her go and learn from her mistakes.

You are selfish. She is really hurting. Your one unselfish act might be to file for D.

Or you could be a good man and stay separated, give her the space she needs to make her mistakes for a few months.

She might come up to the end of her lease and realize you are the one but the marriage needs a lot of work. 

She needs to grow up and you need to pay for her sins. What is 5 more months????

Get yourself in shape both pysically and mentally.

Then the two of you re assess where you are in life in 5 months and decide what to do.

Go for it. 

HM64


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## LookingForTheSun

Happyman64 - great advice!

And listen to the song "Won't give up" by Jason Mraz...I like music but am not a big "this song was made just for us" type of person like my WS and OW did - I still have a hard time listening to music - but this one speaks volumes.

Barnowl - she is hurting, you are hurting, but if you have just an ounce of feeling that you want her for life, give you both some time to deal. Don't take the easy way out - you might be throwing away a great opportunity. If it doesn't work out, you will have grown during that time, learned some lessons and be able to better deal with your final decision.


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## Barnowl

I need to give her time I think. I am on pins and needles waiting for her to get home from her trip. I know she wants to talk to me, and I am scared what the outcome will be. She has been hanging out with her friends who hate me, and she has been with only them for three days. I am sure her head is filled with hateful words about me, and I am worried that it is going to come out when we talk tonight. 

I need to keep fighting. I want to keep fighting. I don't think that there is an easy way out though. Every avenue just leads to more pain...


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## anonymouskitty

Don't try to avoid pain friend, I say walk through the thick of it , you'll come out a much stronger person


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## Barnowl

She wants space when she comes home tonight. She doesn't want to talk. I broke down mowing the lawn. Started bawling in the front yard...Space is so hard. It just feels like losing the small connection we still do have when she is gone and won't talk to me. Today is a bad day. Thank you all for the encouragement.


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## Zanna

Barnowl, you're still very early in the game. Your D-day was in May. You have to give your W time. I know it's hard but her emotions are all over the place. 

I thought about a revenge A in the early days too. I would have never done it even though it would have been easy as I know more than one man that would take me up on that offer, but I also knew I was hurting and I thought about what kind of role model I would be to my children.

Tell your wife you love her and that her affair will solve nothing, and will in fact, make your problems worse. Ask her to think about her decisions for a few weeks before she makes them based purely on emotion. Rational mature individuals make decisions based on facts and consequences not what feels good in the moment.

However, if she does start an A, do not contact your ex-OW. Affairs solve nothing and you can't turn this into a tit for tat situation. Your OW is not a solution to any of your problems. Now or ever.

That said, you don't deserve to be the victim of an A just because you had one. Your wife is making poor decisions and using poor coping skills to deal with your infidelity. I'm assuming that's what you were doing when you had your A. You used an A to solve personal or marital problems so you know how poorly that works out in the end.

If she does go through with it, treat it like any other affair and expose it.


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## 2ndchanc81370

First of all, I would like to commend you that you honestly want to save your marriage and doing all that you can. You just have to hang in there. Gaining your wife's trust (again) takes time. It does not/will not happen overnight. I fully understand how your wife feels and her need to separate. Being a wife myself and with my own share of infidelity from my husband, I can imagine what she is going through. Good luck to you both.


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## LookingForTheSun

See if you can sit down together and watch the movie Fireproof. It is on Netflix now. I just watched it by myself while folding clothes - bawled through the whole thing - a wake up call to you both. If she won't watch it, you should. Grab some tissues, but I think it may give you some perspective. Stay strong.


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## Barnowl

LookingForTheSun said:


> See if you can sit down together and watch the movie Fireproof. It is on Netflix now. I just watched it by myself while folding clothes - bawled through the whole thing - a wake up call to you both. If she won't watch it, you should. Grab some tissues, but I think it may give you some perspective. Stay strong.


I don't see a movie with the two of us happening soon, but thank you. I will keep it in mind for an evening that she is willing to talk to me.


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## happyman64

Bar owl,

No matter what direction your marriage takes pain is inevitable for both of you. Accept it. You cheated but both of you pay the price.

Your talk will probably not go well. Accept the outcome no matter what she says.

And if she wants to move on tell her you do not but you accept her decision if that is what it takes for her to heal.

And if she is. Still wishy washy, express your thoughts, tell her your feelings and fight for her .

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Barnowl

happyman64 said:


> Bar owl,
> Accept the outcome no matter what she says.


I feel like this is a mantra that I need to have inscribed on a plaque and hung in my house. Acceptance is the most difficult thing...


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - Fireproof - watch it - and I think forgiveness is the most difficult...still pulling for ya!


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## Barnowl

LookingForTheSun said:


> Barnowl - Fireproof - watch it - and I think forgiveness is the most difficult...still pulling for ya!


Just added it to my netflix queue. Should come in a few days.


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## cpacan

Barnowl said:


> I feel like this is a mantra that I need to have inscribed on a plaque and hung in my house. Acceptance is the most difficult thing...


You are absolutely right, and the same goes for your wife. How do you think she feels about the cards she was dealt by you?

You must allow her some moves as well, _then_ you can decide whether to check, fold or raise.


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## Barnowl

I texted a bit with her tonight. Talked about how sorry I was, and that the house is empty, lonely, and sad. I told her that I read a new book and realized that I have done a lot wrong, and I will work on being a better marriage rebuilder. I told her I felt like there were some serious things to discuss between her and the other guy that she is now beginning to be physical with. She told me she doesn't want to talk about it, and that she is completely angry that the focus has changed to her and the other guy instead of my cheating. I think there is a lack of respect there for her to not think that it is a big deal. I didn't text her back after her reply. I am not going to get drawn into a fight. I am going to stay calm, stay separated from that train of thought, and hopefully she will come to her senses that having a revenge affair probably isn't the best course of action to take.

The reality is though that she is already well on the path, and I am just waiting for the day she tells me she has sex with him...I know it is coming. It feels inevitable. Throw in the towel? Sometimes I certainly want to, but it is too early. I will leave her alone and let her work through it...tomorrow is another day.


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## LookingForTheSun

I was angry when my husband tried to change the conversation when he started out apologizing and then felt like he had done enough. She might still just be mad and wants you to keep apologizing until you are blue in the face - can't blame her for that - or you may be making her uncomfortable enough with the path that you seem to think she is headed down - you didn't like to be told you were wrong did you? She is torn - not because she wants to jump into another realtionship, but because she feels to be treated better than she has been. Fireproof - ask her if she will watch it on her own - tell her it was referred by a friend for both of your healing.


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## Barnowl

F**k this. Seriously. I just got drawn into a stupid conversation with her, and she hung up on me refusing to talk about anything. She is hurt, and I fully understand that, but it is a sign of total disrespect to not even acknowledge her own actions and discuss them with me. I have answered every single question she asked me. Even the most painful questions I have ever had, I gave a response to. She won't even take 10 minutes out of her night to talk to me about her feelings for another man after 6 years of marriage. Throw in the towel. I am done...at least for tonight. I am done.


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## Zanna

Barnowl, you feel done in the moment because you are angry and frustrated. I get that and have been there far too often and I'm the BS.

This is what infidelity does and it's also how it came about. You had feelings and you reacted without thinking through the consequences.

Your wife is falling into the same trap. You don't have to tolerate her indecision forever but hang in there a bit longer. You can do this. Be the man you should have been in your M and prove to your wife you can be there for her.


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## Barnowl

Zanna said:


> Be the man you should have been in your M and prove to your wife you can be there for her.


I will absolutely be the man I was supposed to be, if she will own up to her 50% of the marriage problems, and be the wife I thought I married. If I had known going in that we would have had sex an average of 10-12 times per year, I would have never married her. Honestly, I want a reconciliation, because I love that woman, but thinking back to 6 years in hell with my manhood in a jar makes me think I should just file for divorce, cut the losses, and move on. I will play her wishy-washy game for a while longer, but at some point if she won't own up to her own faults, then I have to move on. I can't handle the heavy lifting of both 100% of my cheating, and 100% of the marriage problems. I will lift 150% all day long for the rest of my life if she will come to the table willing to do her 50% share.

At this point, she is at 0%, and blames me 210% for everything. I am pissed, I am angry, and I am so glad that I have this place that I can type this out because it stops me from sending her an angry text message. Ahhh!

I hope in some way there will be a betrayed spouse out there who reads the words of a cheater who is honestly trying to reconcile their marriage, and gains some good perspective from this thread. It has been helpful for me to read your replies and change my attitude and behaviors in some ways...but ultimately, I think I am still selfish, and rude, and just want what I want right now...maybe R won't work for me. It scares me that I am going to take this baggage into another relationship someday. If I divorce, that is it. I am single for life. (angry bitter rant over.)


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## Zanna

Barnowl, you got that right. If you don't deal with this in this R, it will carry into your next one.

When the sex goes, it means there are other issues in the M that need attending to.

I was the LD person in my M. My H blamed me. It was his justification for cheating. Then he realized far too late that all the sex in the world with some other women, didn't make him stop wanting me. That's when he started drinking too much and he became very depressed. He said he realized an A was a poor solution to his problems. So he took a good long hard look at why I was rejecting him and realized he had been far from the perfect H. 

A lot of guys on the forum suggest MMSL. Google it. I also suggest Passionate Marriage. 

My H and I dealt with the issues in our M that led to the A and now we have sex every night, or at least 5-6 times a week. It could be partially due to Hysterical Bonding but I do believe we have addressed this issue in our M. Despite the A, we are communicating more, connecting more and understanding each other again. The emotional barriers are down, the anger is being acknowledged, my feelings are validated, he owns his choices and so I desire my H again.

The issue for you now is that you added infidelity to the mix and that complicates things in your M as I'm sure you know.

BUT the truth is you did not have an affair because of the lack of sex. You had an affair because you justified it due to lack of sex but it was a poor and selfish choice. The truth is you could have sought counselling or sex therapy or read book and then if that didn't work, you could have told your wife that you were unhappy and needed to separate because you were unfulfilled and needed a better sex life.

But you chose to cheat SO NOW that is the issue that has to be dealt with first. IF you explain to your wife that you cheated because you made a poor decision and you stick to that and you apologize for handling a problem poorly then eventually you can earn her trust and tackle the issue of lack of sex in your M. If at that time, she is not open well then you have choices to make - D or separation.

But you absolutely cannot blame a betrayed spouse for your decision or your justification to cheat. EVER. For one single second. I know you've said you don't but it comes across in your posts sometimes that a part of you still believes that and if I'm garnering that from your posts, well I question what message your w is getting.


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - you have helped me see some of what my husband is going through - although it took him 3 months past the first DD to get to where he really wanted to R. I could have easily left, and thought about it many times - he was selfish and that drew out my recovery even more. we are only at 3 months R, but we are 1000 times better. I will never try to take any ownership of his affair(s).....he carried guilt which I 100% believe contributed to 80% of our marriage problems. He was moody, angry, and an ass to live with - why would I want to put forth any extra effort - yet I did, and them sometimes I got tired of trying and we went a long time in between intamacy - but when we did, we both said - why aren't we dong this more often? It is not that I did not want to, but when someone makes you angry, you fall into that trap, and believe me, I could not be any angryer these last 6 months for what he did. 

Keep posting here and don't ever send your wife - your wife, an angry text. If she is going to make a mistake, let her make it on her own but don't push her any more than you have or she might break. She may just be trying to make you squirm - remember, she is angry and hurt. Get some sleep - tomorrow is a new day.


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## Barnowl

I am sure it comes across. I resent her at times, and I resented her for years. It definitely comes across...

My rational brain speaks these words that are true, such as I was selfish, I had a choice and I chose to cheat, my emotional disconnectedness made my wife not want to physically connect with me. Rationally, I understand that. But, the anger is there and the resentment is there, and it is hard not to just say, "Why didn't you want me...why did you stay married to me and refuse me night after night after night!??"

I have major issues with women now. I kind of just assume that all women don't want sex. I read the "Sex in Marriage" forum, and I can tell that I don't believe these women who talk about having a higher drive than their husbands. I roll my eyes, and think they are all full of it. I have been conditioned to think that sex DOES NOT EXIST in marriage. I have some deep rooted issues to deal with before the R is going to happen successfully. 

I am honestly trying to deal with the cheating first, and other issues second, but the sex thing really gets me going, and then add to it the fact that my wife is parading another relationship around in front of my face, and now refuses to talk to me about her relationship just pisses me off even more. It is a bad night. Just a bad night. 

Emotional rollercoaster is the understatement of the year for my life right now.


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## LookingForTheSun

First of all, I was typing fast, just read what I previosly wrote and...what a typo - doing = dong - ha!

Anywho - when you two finally get to a point when you can sit down and talk face to face (not via text or email), control your anger and tell her from your heart - " I am not trying to make any excuses or switch the blame for what I did, but I felt rejected by you sexually for most of our marriage. Maybe it was just me that felt that way, so please tell me if you just did not have a high sex drive or if you really were just uninterested in sex with me - just so I know."

As far as women having a high sex drive, it does exist. I have always liked it a lot and we started off very active, but then WS became more of a butt to live with, life happened, but I think more he just became a butt to live with - so I was not inclined to put forth so much effort all of the time, and he had his baggage and I don't know what other reasons he had other than life getting in the way - we have not gotten that far yet. 

Fast forward to now - after first DD, we had hysterical bonding - sex every night. I could not understand why I would even want to be with this man - I was disgusted, but if you read about it (hysterical bonding), it is true (so keep that in mind). This continued for about 2 months, then slowed to about 4 times a week, and now that we are in our final post DD, about 3 times a week - thing is, if we don't have sex or he seems too tired or stressed from work (this affair has put him way behind and not looking so good in work performance), a red flag goes up in my head - because didn't he have an affair because of lack of sex and bonding? I have changed and have told him, in that now I know what I want out of a relationship and sex is important to me too - it always was, only I did not step outside our marriage for it. Also, physical appearance is important too - just being in shape and caring about being healthy and not lazy and wanting to put your best foot forward for your spouse too. 

For us, we both gained weight during our 16 years together - him way more than me and he did not physically have children, but no excuse - we payed less attention to ourselves. After DD, I quickly lost 20 lbs in a month because of it (and I was usually a stress eater - this changed me and I did not even know it - could not eat, sleep, think straight). After last DD, I told him that I was visual too - so basically - "I was not as physically attracted to you either if that was your reasoning, but I loved you no less." Then we started doing rip60 together - I lost another 10 lbs and gained muscle and am in the best shape of my life and he knows is. He is still working on losing.

So - my point is, maybe you both got complacent too and did not put forth the extra effort to keep each other interested. Maybe you were not always so nice to be around because of work, or something else. I agree that I should have done better with key points, but he was just as lacking in that department plus he contributed a lot more bad stuff that I was unaware of.

Your wife is hurting - don't expect her to own up to anything right away. All she can think about right now is how you did her wrong. She needs some time to get past that, clear her head and start thinking rationally again. I am sure she is a mess, even if she comes across and confident and decisive....we BS's have to learn to put up a front as a defensive mechanism - we don't want to get hurt anymore because we really cannot handle any more right now. Hang in there!


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## Barnowl

I sent my wife a very short email this morning outlining the details of my week so there would not be any confusion on where I was. I am still trying to keep her in the loop with my actions so it doesn't further breed trust issues.

To address a few things. I have told my wife many times during our marriage that I feel rejected. She always says she does want me, but I just don't believe her anymore. I used to want to believe her, but I honestly don't. 

As for letting ourselves go...we didn't. I am young and fit, and active. In fact, the stress from this whole ordeal has made me lose too much weight! I was about 170 pounds, and now I am 150, and I cannot gain weight back for the life of me. I have been running nearly everyday too. I would say I am in the best shape I have been since I was 18 years old, so really we never let ourselves go. 

I think she just has a low sex drive coupled with the fact that I emotionally disconnected from her. It is a chicken and the egg scenario. She believes I emotionally disconnected from her first which caused her to physically shut down. I belive that I married her and was completely emotionally invested in her, but that the rejection and lack of sex caused me to emotionally shut down. We each have very different recollections and feelings about the past three years at least, and really about our entire marriage history.

At some point, do you just have to realize that you are no longer the same person you were 11 years prior, and you move on? That is so difficult to think about, but I just don't know what to do anymore. I was so fully into the R, but now I just feel like she is shut down and won't talk to me, and nothing I do changes it. I guess I just have to keep pushing forward, and trying to talk to her, and see where the cards fall. I have put all visits and communication between us in her hands for this week. We have counseling on Wednesday, and I wonder if we will even see eachother between now and then.


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## Mario Kempes

You have counseling on Wednesday? That's gives me some hope, Barnowl. Good luck!


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> I will absolutely be the man I was supposed to be, if she will own up to her 50% of the marriage problems, and be the wife I thought I married. If I had known going in that we would have had sex an average of 10-12 times per year, I would have never married her. Honestly, I want a reconciliation, because I love that woman, but thinking back to 6 years in hell with my manhood in a jar makes me think I should just file for divorce, cut the losses, and move on. I will play her wishy-washy game for a while longer, but at some point if she won't own up to her own faults, then I have to move on. I can't handle the heavy lifting of both 100% of my cheating, and 100% of the marriage problems. I will lift 150% all day long for the rest of my life if she will come to the table willing to do her 50% share.
> 
> At this point, she is at 0%, and blames me 210% for everything. I am pissed, I am angry, and I am so glad that I have this place that I can type this out because it stops me from sending her an angry text message. Ahhh!
> 
> I hope in some way there will be a betrayed spouse out there who reads the words of a cheater who is honestly trying to reconcile their marriage, and gains some good perspective from this thread. It has been helpful for me to read your replies and change my attitude and behaviors in some ways...but ultimately, I think I am still selfish, and rude, and just want what I want right now...maybe R won't work for me. It scares me that I am going to take this baggage into another relationship someday. If I divorce, that is it. I am single for life. (angry bitter rant over.)


Barnowl:

First you need to focus on the cheating issue and your betrayal of trust. 

Why did you not ask for a divorce prior? Did you want to hurt your wife? 

Since you and you alone decided to take away her choice to change by cheating, that is what needs to be first addressed.

Later, when she heals from that betrayal, than the counselor can focus on her be willing to accept some blame. 

With that said, my spouse had low sex drive. I chose to not cheat. 

I don't think lack of sex is a reason to cheat.


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> I am sure it comes across. I resent her at times, and I resented her for years. It definitely comes across...
> 
> My rational brain speaks these words that are true, such as I was selfish, I had a choice and I chose to cheat, my emotional disconnectedness made my wife not want to physically connect with me. Rationally, I understand that. But, the anger is there and the resentment is there, and it is hard not to just say, "Why didn't you want me...why did you stay married to me and refuse me night after night after night!??"
> 
> I have major issues with women now. I kind of just assume that all women don't want sex. I read the "Sex in Marriage" forum, and I can tell that I don't believe these women who talk about having a higher drive than their husbands. I roll my eyes, and think they are all full of it. I have been conditioned to think that sex DOES NOT EXIST in marriage. I have some deep rooted issues to deal with before the R is going to happen successfully.
> 
> I am honestly trying to deal with the cheating first, and other issues second, but the sex thing really gets me going, and then add to it the fact that my wife is parading another relationship around in front of my face, and now refuses to talk to me about her relationship just pisses me off even more. It is a bad night. Just a bad night.
> 
> Emotional rollercoaster is the understatement of the year for my life right now.


Barnowl:

Your wife did not reject you for sex for no reason. 

There was a reason. You may not want to consciously accept that but there was. And, it wasn't only her fault. Yet she accepted your faults and did not cheat. I am sure she had as much resentment as you do.

As far as woman having a higher sex drive than men, it happens all the time. 

Even some young men have low sex drive issue. I used to hear that from newly wed wives all the time. 

As for not trusting that some women can have a hight sex drive.....how can that possibly be your wife's fault. Geez, stop blame shifting, please. 

As for the revenge affair: That, too, is a normal reactive response to being betrayed. 

I don't agree with it, still she is reacting in a very normal way to a deep betrayal.

Since you are the one who cheated first, you need to let it run it's course and forgive her. 

After all you mentioned being in several EAs and PAs over the years. 

Serial cheating is a much deeper betrayal than just one errant episode.


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> I sent my wife a very short email this morning outlining the details of my week so there would not be any confusion on where I was. I am still trying to keep her in the loop with my actions so it doesn't further breed trust issues.
> 
> To address a few things. I have told my wife many times during our marriage that I feel rejected. She always says she does want me, but I just don't believe her anymore. I used to want to believe her, but I honestly don't.
> 
> As for letting ourselves go...we didn't. I am young and fit, and active. In fact, the stress from this whole ordeal has made me lose too much weight! I was about 170 pounds, and now I am 150, and I cannot gain weight back for the life of me. I have been running nearly everyday too. I would say I am in the best shape I have been since I was 18 years old, so really we never let ourselves go.
> 
> I think she just has a low sex drive coupled with the fact that I emotionally disconnected from her. It is a chicken and the egg scenario. She believes I emotionally disconnected from her first which caused her to physically shut down. I belive that I married her and was completely emotionally invested in her, but that the rejection and lack of sex caused me to emotionally shut down. We each have very different recollections and feelings about the past three years at least, and really about our entire marriage history.
> 
> At some point, do you just have to realize that you are no longer the same person you were 11 years prior, and you move on? That is so difficult to think about, but I just don't know what to do anymore. I was so fully into the R, but now I just feel like she is shut down and won't talk to me, and nothing I do changes it. I guess I just have to keep pushing forward, and trying to talk to her, and see where the cards fall. I have put all visits and communication between us in her hands for this week. We have counseling on Wednesday, and I wonder if we will even see eachother between now and then.


Barnowl:

You don't sound like a person who was EVER fully into the R. 

When a person keeps threatening divorce if the BS doesn't change, that is not someone who is fully into reconciliation and willing to give the BS time to recover. 

No wonder you wife is still pulling away. 

YOu need Individual counseling. You need to understand why you prefer being emotionally intimate with women other than your wife.


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> I quit making the "right choice" a long time ago. I can't even focus. I am shaking at work. It just feels all downhill from here. I won't be able to process her having a revenge affair. This is just nuts...


Yep, imaging your spouse physically entwined both emotionally and physically with another person really hurts, doesn't it. 

That's why cheating is never the solution to marital problems. 

Cheating hurts and it suck to be the betrayed spouse.

At least with a revenge affair you can understand her logic. Your wife has nothing like that to hang onto. 

She was likely completely blindsided by your affair. You on the other hand have a perfectly logical explanation for why she is cheating.


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## Sara8

eman said:


> Stay strong Barnowl. Your wife is trying to sort out all of her emotions. Hopefully she comes to her senses and realizes that another man won't make her pain just disappear. I know how you feel.....if my wife came to me right now and told my she slept with some guy to get back at me I would just die inside.
> 
> I hate weekend mornings now. I wake up with so much anxiety wondering about my wife. I think I get the anxiety because I'm not busy getting ready for work like I am during the week. So I come here for support.
> 
> Infidelity is such an ugly, ugly thing. How is it so hard to see that before the act is done??


Wow Eman, if my STBEH talked the way you do and truly acknowledge how ugly an affair is, I would not have filed for divorce.

I am sending best wishes for a speedy recovery and reconciliation in your marriage. You sound so truly remorseful and seem to have truly learned a lesson from your infidelity.


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## Barnowl

Sara - I appreciate your comments, and they help me understand. I have been rude to her, I have not been good at this R. I want our marriage, I want it so bad. She is incredibly hurt, and I am hurting too. We are both just shells of the people we used to be. Everything is different, and yet I think all we both want is to feel normal and happy with eahother again...I don't know if I see that future for us anymore.




Mario Kempes said:


> You have counseling on Wednesday? That's gives me some hope, Barnowl. Good luck!


We did have counseling, but she is cancelling it, and wants to go alone this week. I got a response email from my wife. She is very hurt, and feeling very blamed right now, and she should feel that way, because it is how I have been acting. 

It is incredible what a difference a weekend makes. This weekend is a pivotal turning point. Everything is different today.


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## eman

Sara8 said:


> Wow Eman, if my STBEH talked the way you do and truly acknowledge how ugly an affair is, I would not have filed for divorce.
> 
> I am sending best wishes for a speedy recovery and reconciliation in your marriage. You sound so truly remorseful and seem to have truly learned a lesson from you infidelity.


I feel much the same way that Barnowl does. I own the infidelity 100%. I realize I really really messed things up and these are the consequences of my actions. I've tried to put myself in my wife's shoes. I've also tried to convey all this information to my wife via texts (terrible way to communicate efficiently), a few phone calls before she cut the communication, a few emails (that I have no idea if she even read), and even a hand written letter. I've told her where I believe I was wrong and where I was selfish, and etc, etc. I told her I see where I was wrong and I have a desire to change. Not only a desire, but I've begun changing for the better. But she won't respond. It's slowly eating eating me alive. I realize that she is probably very angry at me. There is no excuse for my wrong actions. But I just want to slowly move forward in the right direction. She doesn't seem to care even for a second. I've found my voice is just as lonely as it is loud.


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## Sara8

eman said:


> I feel much the same way that Barnowl does. I own the infidelity 100%. I realize I really really messed things up and these are the consequences of my actions. I've tried to put myself in my wife's shoes. I've also tried to convey all this information to my wife via texts (terrible way to communicate efficiently), a few phone calls before she cut the communication, a few emails (that I have no idea if she even read), and even a hand written letter. I've told her where I believe I was wrong and where I was selfish, and etc, etc. I told her I see where I was wrong and I have a desire to change. Not only a desire, but I've begun changing for the better. But she won't respond. It's slowly eating eating me alive. I realize that she is probably very angry at me. There is no excuse for my wrong actions. But I just want to slowly move forward in the right direction. She doesn't seem to care even for a second. I've found my voice is just as lonely as it is loud.


Sorry, Eman, I mistakenly thought you and your wife were in reconciliation. 

I am sorry she won't respond. At least you are trying to communicate. I hope she comes around.


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## LookingForTheSun

eman - I suggest you watch Fireproof also if you have not already. It may give you some hope and see things a little brighter. Keep it up and don't stop!


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## Tall Average Guy

eman said:


> I feel much the same way that Barnowl does. I own the infidelity 100%. I realize I really really messed things up and these are the consequences of my actions. I've tried to put myself in my wife's shoes. I've also tried to convey all this information to my wife via texts (terrible way to communicate efficiently), a few phone calls before she cut the communication, a few emails (that I have no idea if she even read), and even a hand written letter. I've told her where I believe I was wrong and where I was selfish, and etc, etc. I told her I see where I was wrong and I have a desire to change. Not only a desire, but I've begun changing for the better. But she won't respond. It's slowly eating eating me alive. I realize that she is probably very angry at me. There is no excuse for my wrong actions. But I just want to slowly move forward in the right direction. She doesn't seem to care even for a second. I've found my voice is just as lonely as it is loud.


Without trying to threadjack, consider backing off for a bit and giving her space. Continue to work on yourself, but send her a brief email letting her know that you will stop bothering her for a bit, but are ready to communicate if she chooses. Give her back a little control.


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## MEM2020

This is huge - and is the premise of whether a recon is possible. 

True story:
This guy and his W go to counseling. Sex life is dead, he is losing his mind. 

Counselor to wife: Why is your sex life dead.
Wife: Because he watches porn
Husband: Sex life DIED 3 years ago, I didn't start watching porn until 1 year ago
Wife: I hate that he watches porn and don't know if I will ever get over it
Husband: Stunned - this has nothing to do with porn - tell me why you shut down our sex life 3 years ago
Wife: I didn't feel close to you
Husband: When I asked what was wrong, you kept saying nothing. And then you started making up stuff for me to do. More housework, more watching the kids. Basically, if your life was "Stress free" we would have more sex. And I took on an every more unfair workload. And nothing changed. And now you blame porn? Why do you keep making up excuses? Why can't you just tell me the truth? 
Counselor: It seems like the porn is not helping the situation






Barnowl said:


> I sent my wife a very short email this morning outlining the details of my week so there would not be any confusion on where I was. I am still trying to keep her in the loop with my actions so it doesn't further breed trust issues.
> 
> To address a few things. I have told my wife many times during our marriage that I feel rejected. She always says she does want me, but I just don't believe her anymore. I used to want to believe her, but I honestly don't.
> 
> As for letting ourselves go...we didn't. I am young and fit, and active. In fact, the stress from this whole ordeal has made me lose too much weight! I was about 170 pounds, and now I am 150, and I cannot gain weight back for the life of me. I have been running nearly everyday too. I would say I am in the best shape I have been since I was 18 years old, so really we never let ourselves go.
> 
> I think she just has a low sex drive coupled with the fact that I emotionally disconnected from her. It is a chicken and the egg scenario. She believes I emotionally disconnected from her first which caused her to physically shut down. I belive that I married her and was completely emotionally invested in her, but that the rejection and lack of sex caused me to emotionally shut down. We each have very different recollections and feelings about the past three years at least, and really about our entire marriage history.
> 
> At some point, do you just have to realize that you are no longer the same person you were 11 years prior, and you move on? That is so difficult to think about, but I just don't know what to do anymore. I was so fully into the R, but now I just feel like she is shut down and won't talk to me, and nothing I do changes it. I guess I just have to keep pushing forward, and trying to talk to her, and see where the cards fall. I have put all visits and communication between us in her hands for this week. We have counseling on Wednesday, and I wonder if we will even see eachother between now and then.


----------



## eman

LookingForTheSun said:


> eman - I suggest you watch Fireproof also if you have not already. It may give you some hope and see things a little brighter. Keep it up and don't stop!


Will do. I've never seen it. Sounds like Barnowl already has the DVD on the way.


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## Barnowl

MEM11363 said:


> This is huge - and is the premise of whether a recon is possible.
> 
> True story:
> This guy and his W go to counseling. Sex life is dead, he is losing his mind.
> 
> Counselor to wife: Why is your sex life dead.
> Wife: Because he watches porn
> Husband: Sex life DIED 3 years ago, I didn't start watching porn until 1 year ago
> Wife: I hate that he watches porn and don't know if I will ever get over it
> Husband: Stunned - this has nothing to do with porn - tell me why you shut down our sex life 3 years ago
> Wife: I didn't feel close to you
> Husband: When I asked what was wrong, you kept saying nothing. And then you started making up stuff for me to do. More housework, more watching the kids. Basically, if your life was "Stress free" we would have more sex. And I took on an every more unfair workload. And nothing changed. And now you blame porn? Why do you keep making up excuses? Why can't you just tell me the truth?
> Counselor: It seems like the porn is not helping the situation



This feels familiar, except our counselor hasn't shut me down that way yet. He is a good counselor I think, and he is trying to work through the affair first, but he saw our sexlife as a serious issue that needed to be talked through. But, he wants to address the infidelity first...which to me of course is linked to our sexlife. It is all connected. There can't be blame, but it is all certainly closely intertwined and connected.

I don't want a reconciliation into the marriage that we had. I want a new marriage where we are both 100%. Everything is so broken right now though, that I cannot even contemplate what that new marriage would be like. 

Am I just scared? Honestly I am extremely scared. Scared of being alone. Scared of not talking to the woman I love every single day. Scared that I will continue to drag down my existing relationship or future relationships with all of this baggage. I am in a low place today.


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## happyman64

Barnowl said:


> I texted a bit with her tonight. Talked about how sorry I was, and that the house is empty, lonely, and sad. I told her that I read a new book and realized that I have done a lot wrong, and I will work on being a better marriage rebuilder. I told her I felt like there were some serious things to discuss between her and the other guy that she is now beginning to be physical with. She told me she doesn't want to talk about it, and that she is completely angry that the focus has changed to her and the other guy instead of my cheating. I think there is a lack of respect there for her to not think that it is a big deal. I didn't text her back after her reply. I am not going to get drawn into a fight. I am going to stay calm, stay separated from that train of thought, and hopefully she will come to her senses that having a revenge affair probably isn't the best course of action to take.
> 
> The reality is though that she is already well on the path, and I am just waiting for the day she tells me she has sex with him...I know it is coming. It feels inevitable. Throw in the towel? Sometimes I certainly want to, but it is too early. I will leave her alone and let her work through it...tomorrow is another day.


But Barnowl even if she has sex with him why would you throw in the towel???

She has not thrown in the towel after you had sex with OW has she???

Please remember you are both hurting.

What you should do is tell her how bad you are hurting. You are hurting because you realize hw bad you have hurt her and damaged your marriage.

And while you cannot tell her what to do as she is her own person, tell her you hope she makes better choices than you did and not dishonor your marriage the way you did.

Two rights do not make it wrong and you do not wish her to further hurt herself anymore than you have done already by your poor choices.

That is all you can say and do.

Give it time. She needs time.

And if she makes those poor choices and gets physical with someone else you will be hurt. But you should realize that it was your selfish reasons that got you to where you are now.

Take each day at a time. 

Be glad that she is still communicating with you!!!

HM64


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## Barnowl

Happyman - Thanks for the advice. I did tell her most of those things, and I asked her not to sleep with anyone. I told her how I felt. The ball is in her court.

As for her throwing in the towel...at no point in the past 6-7 weeks has she told me that she is fighting for our marriage. She doesn't know what she wants. She does communicate with me, and she has been around, but I do not believe she wants to reconcile the marriage.

The separation needs to play itself out. I will keep working on myself. Work on my compulsive behaviors, keep my physical activity up, try to keep up with my Grad School work, and generally just learn to be happy being me. I don't know what I like to do alone because I have never done it, haha. I need to learn about myself too!


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## Tall Average Guy

happyman64 said:


> But Barnowl even if she has sex with him why would you throw in the towel???
> 
> She has not thrown in the towel after you had sex with OW has she???
> 
> Please remember you are both hurting.
> 
> What you should do is tell her how bad you are hurting. You are hurting because you realize hw bad you have hurt her and damaged your marriage.
> 
> And while you cannot tell her what to do as she is her own person, tell her you hope she makes better choices than you did and not dishonor your marriage the way you did.
> 
> Two rights do not make it wrong and you do not wish her to further hurt herself anymore than you have done already by your poor choices.
> 
> That is all you can say and do.
> 
> Give it time. She needs time.
> 
> And if she makes those poor choices and gets physical with someone else you will be hurt. But you should realize that it was your selfish reasons that got you to where you are now.
> 
> Take each day at a time.
> 
> Be glad that she is still communicating with you!!!
> 
> HM64


Of course, if she does go forward and cheat, she loses much of the moral high ground and Barnowl then gets to decide whether the marriage is worth saving. I hope she does not do that, and wish him luck in getting his stuff together, regardless of the outcome of his marriage.


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## DawnD

Barnowl -- Can I ask why her having an affair would end it for you? Not trying to be funny about it or anything like that, just curious why you thought it is okay to want her to forgive you after sleeping with multiple women, but you can't forgive her for sleeping with another man?

Note that I am in no way saying I think she should, or that it would help anything. I know it wouldn't. Just curious to the thought process honestly.


----------



## Barnowl

I don't know that it would end it for me. I would have to work through that. It would be terribly difficult for me. I also worry about moving forward because this guy is someone she works closely with, so I am worried about future contact...it is just a crappy situation all around. I worry that it is too broken. Who knows...I need more time to see what will come of all of this.

What is potentially ending it for me right now is the concern that I don't want to go back to the marriage we had. If it is a new revised marriage, then I am all for it, but I will not fall back into our old patterns.

I am giving her the space and time she needs to work through all of her emotions. As of this morning she wants a week without me. Hopefully that won't turn into weeks on top of weeks...


----------



## eman

DawnD said:


> Barnowl -- Can I ask why her having an affair would end it for you? Not trying to be funny about it or anything like that, just curious why you thought it is okay to want her to forgive you after sleeping with multiple women, but you can't forgive her for sleeping with another man?
> 
> Note that I am in no way saying I think she should, or that it would help anything. I know it wouldn't. Just curious to the thought process honestly.


What a difficult situation. I'm sorry Barnowl, this isn't an easy situation for you. I think what makes this hard is the feeling of her doing it out of spite (possibly). Not that it changes anything, and hopefully I'm not putting words in Barnowl's mouth. I'm interested to hear what others have to say as well. The obvious answer is that it isn't right for her to do it. But neither was the infidelity to begin with. And I say this knowing my hands aren't clean...


----------



## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I don't know that it would end it for me. I would have to work through that. It would be terribly difficult for me. I also worry about moving forward because this guy is someone she works closely with, so I am worried about future contact...it is just a crappy situation all around. I worry that it is too broken. Who knows...I need more time to see what will come of all of this.
> 
> What is potentially ending it for me right now is the concern that I don't want to go back to the marriage we had. If it is a new revised marriage, then I am all for it, but I will not fall back into our old patterns.
> 
> I am giving her the space and time she needs to work through all of her emotions. As of this morning she wants a week without me. Hopefully that won't turn into weeks on top of weeks...


 I am curious though, because I may be misunderstanding how the process is going for you, so forgive me if my assumptions are incorrect.

The way I read it ( which can be wrong) is that you more or less want her to move past your cheating, and straight in to fixing the marriage? I will be honest with you, and tell you that my H was the DS in our marriage, and when he tried that it did not work. What did happen, was in my anger I made him tell me that I was "allowed" to go cheat with anyone I wanted, and have sex the same amount of times with that man. Sounds ridiculous yes? But it made perfect sense to me at that time. Here he was, caught cheating and lying, and he wanted ME to work and change. Oh h*ll no. (LOL). He realized shortly after that the pain from his cheating and lying had to be dealt with for quite a while before he could expect a lot of effort from me. And that's when progress started. Just sharing, you may already know this all. 

I truly hope that your wife is only considering a revenge affair, and that it is just out of anger, and she realizes before she does anything that it will cause an equal amount of destruction no matter who did what first.


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## Barnowl

I think part of it is spite, and I think part of it is that she genuinely likes this guy.


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## MEM2020

You need to start with what her goal is. My guess, her goal is to return to your old marriage because you didn't enforce any boundaries which - slowly killed respect - which slowly killed desire. 

All boundaries are predicated on one thing: The willingness to end the marriage if consistently violated. It isn't nice, it isn't in the spirit of "til death do us part" however Boundaries are the foundation of a healthy marriage with most people. 

If you luck out and marry a "natural giver" who is highly attracted to you - MAYBE - you can do ok without boundaries. But that is a very rare pairing. 





Barnowl said:


> This feels familiar, except our counselor hasn't shut me down that way yet. He is a good counselor I think, and he is trying to work through the affair first, but he saw our sexlife as a serious issue that needed to be talked through. But, he wants to address the infidelity first...which to me of course is linked to our sexlife. It is all connected. There can't be blame, but it is all certainly closely intertwined and connected.
> 
> I don't want a reconciliation into the marriage that we had. I want a new marriage where we are both 100%. Everything is so broken right now though, that I cannot even contemplate what that new marriage would be like.
> 
> Am I just scared? Honestly I am extremely scared. Scared of being alone. Scared of not talking to the woman I love every single day. Scared that I will continue to drag down my existing relationship or future relationships with all of this baggage. I am in a low place today.


----------



## cpacan

DawnD said:


> I am curious though, because I may be misunderstanding how the process is going for you, so forgive me if my assumptions are incorrect.
> 
> The way I read it ( which can be wrong) is that you more or less want her to move past your cheating, and straight in to fixing the marriage? I will be honest with you, and tell you that my H was the DS in our marriage, and when he tried that it did not work. What did happen, was in my anger I made him tell me that I was "allowed" to go cheat with anyone I wanted, and have sex the same amount of times with that man. Sounds ridiculous yes? But it made perfect sense to me at that time. Here he was, caught cheating and lying, and he wanted ME to work and change. Oh h*ll no. (LOL). He realized shortly after that the pain from his cheating and lying had to be dealt with for quite a while before he could expect a lot of effort from me. And that's when progress started. Just sharing, you may already know this all.
> 
> I truly hope that your wife is only considering a revenge affair, and that it is just out of anger, and she realizes before she does anything that it will cause an equal amount of destruction no matter who did what first.


My wife did the same with me, offer a free pass. Difference is; I took it. She took me for granted, didn't respect me and, as far as I can tell, didn't quite expect me to use the pass (either because think I didn't have the guts or that I didn't have the looks Turned out I had both.

But what it did to us was, that the field was levelled a bit. I came to understand that sex with another person not necessarily meant that I didn't love my wife, and my wife wife saw that I was still attractive to other women and that I had the guts to move on. It started a thought process in her - she got jealous and started fighting more for me. It had been the other way around before this.

I also improved my self confidence and self esteem as a result of this.

We are still far from done dealing with her cheating and our relationship in general, but we are more even when we discuss, and we will maybe eventually get there.

So should she choose to act on her bf, you loose something, but you may also get some different perspective both of you. So not just bad IMO.


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## Barnowl

cpacan - I wonder if it will level the playing field, or be something I can't get over. I don't know yet...I won't know until it happens I guess. She definitely has the looks to pull it off, and it would seem that her confidence is up right now. I wouldn't be surprised if it is sooner than later. She did tell me that she doesn't want to see me this week...maybe this week will be it with relatively no contact between her and I. Ugh, sad face....

She is an adult though, she can make up her own mind about her decisions, and act however she wants to. I certainly did...


----------



## DawnD

cpacan said:


> My wife did the same with me, offer a free pass. Difference is; I took it. She took me for granted, didn't respect me and, as far as I can tell, didn't quite expect me to use the pass (either because think I didn't have the guts or that I didn't have the looks Turned out I had both.
> 
> But what it did to us was, that the field was levelled a bit. I came to understand that sex with another person not necessarily meant that I didn't love my wife, and my wife wife saw that I was still attractive to other women and that I had the guts to move on. It started a thought process in her - she got jealous and started fighting more for me. It had been the other way around before this.
> 
> I also improved my self confidence and self esteem as a result of this.
> 
> We are still far from done dealing with her cheating and our relationship in general, but we are more even when we discuss, and we will maybe eventually get there.
> 
> So should she choose to act on her bf, you loose something, but you may also get some different perspective both of you. So not just bad IMO.


 I won't say I hadn't considered using it, but I did have a moment of clarity where I realized I would have to compromise who I was just to prove a point. And I didn't want that. I wanted to remain loyal to my morals and beliefs, and had I actually gone through with it, I think I would have lost that piece of myself . Its kind of "to each their own" thing.


----------



## cpacan

DawnD said:


> I won't say I hadn't considered using it, but I did have a moment of clarity where I realized I would have to compromise who I was just to prove a point. And I didn't want that. I wanted to remain loyal to my morals and beliefs, and had I actually gone through with it, I think I would have lost that piece of myself . Its kind of "to each their own" thing.


I agree with you. To me it's not so much the sex thing as it is the dishonesty and cheating behaviour that I am angry about.


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## Tall Average Guy

cpacan said:


> I agree with you. To me it's not so much the sex thing as it is the dishonesty and cheating behaviour that I am angry about.


And yet I can see it being a sex thing for Barnowl. If he is even remotely correct (and even assuming some level of rewriting history), their sex life was pretty poor. Her not having sex with him then having sex with this new guy could be very difficult to deal with, even if it is not logical. 

I would suggest dealing with this with his IC to really explore what he is and would feel and why. He really needs to confront this head on to figure out how to move forward.


----------



## DawnD

Tall Average Guy said:


> And yet I can see it being a sex thing for Barnowl. If he is even remotely correct (and even assuming some level of rewriting history), their sex life was pretty poor. Her not having sex with him then having sex with this new guy could be very difficult to deal with, even if it is not logical.
> 
> I would suggest dealing with this with his IC to really explore what he is and would feel and why. He really needs to confront this head on to figure out how to move forward.


It is also quite possible that the EA's are what wounded his wife the deepest. Just assumptions at this point, but I would find it hard to believe that you can be meeting your spouses needs while having a three year EA and a couple of PA's.


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## Barnowl

Tall Average Guy said:


> And yet I can see it being a sex thing for Barnowl. If he is even remotely correct (and even assuming some level of rewriting history), their sex life was pretty poor. Her not having sex with him then having sex with this new guy could be very difficult to deal with, even if it is not logical.


Yeah this will be a big deal to me. I know re-writing history happens, but as someone who began keeping track of our sex life, I have a pretty good idea just how bad our sex life was... we had sex 8 times total last year. I say "once a month on average" but the reality is that we would go 2-3 months with no contact, not even foreplay, often. If we have had sex more than 50 times in our 6 year marriage, I would be shocked. 

That is the marriage that I refuse to go back to. Should I have cheated? Absolutely not. I should have made a different choice. In the future I will, and if I could take it back, I would 100 time.


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## Barnowl

DawnD said:


> It is also quite possible that the EA's are what wounded his wife the deepest. Just assumptions at this point, but I would find it hard to believe that you can be meeting your spouses needs while having a three year EA and a couple of PA's.


Absolutely Dawn. The EA, the true friendship I had with the other woman for 3 years kills her. I was emotionally disconnected. I screwed up in so many ways, I can't even count them all. The EA is the hard one for her to get over.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Absolutely Dawn. The EA, the true friendship I had with the other woman for 3 years kills her. I was emotionally disconnected. I screwed up in so many ways, I can't even count them all. The EA is the hard one for her to get over.


 I bet. Everyone has that one thing that pierces the heart. I am being truly honest when I say I understand that you want a better marriage with your wife, but I am a firm believer that before you can get that, you have to get through the dark times your A's have caused. You can't say "yes I cheated BUT" it won't get you anywhere. I hear you, I truly do, but you will have to mend what you have broken before work on that part of the marriage will begin.


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## Barnowl

DawnD said:


> but you will have to mend what you have broken before work on that part of the marriage will begin.


I hear you. And that is the hardest part. The time will be the hardest part, especially right now while she doesn't want to see me. Wouldn't it be great if we could just move forward with blind faith that it will work out? Life, unfortunately, just doesn't work that way.


----------



## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I hear you. And that is the hardest part. The time will be the hardest part, especially right now while she doesn't want to see me. Wouldn't it be great if we could just move forward with blind faith that it will work out? Life, unfortunately, just doesn't work that way.


That would be. On that note, I have no advice on how to treat the situation with her not speaking to you. I didn't do that with my H really, so I have no solid plan to make things better. I do think the sooner you begin making it about you and what you did, allowing her that time to start to heal before working on things that need to change overall is a good start, but I think MEM and the men may have a better grasp on how to get her back talking and progress.  I do wish you well Barnowl, and if I see anything I can possibly offer advice that is helpful on, I will do so.


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## Tall Average Guy

DawnD said:


> It is also quite possible that the EA's are what wounded his wife the deepest. Just assumptions at this point, but I would find it hard to believe that you can be meeting your spouses needs while having a three year EA and a couple of PA's.


I don't disagree, but I was noting this with respect to Barnowl's ability to deal with her having sex with another man. While his wife is getting emotional support from this guy (and may be in an EA), Barnowl seems to be able to deal with that. However, he does not appear to be dealing with his wife potentially having sex with this guy. Their past history, as well as the history of sex in the marriage, may have something to do with that. Because of that, I suggest that Barnowl deal with that in IC.


----------



## DawnD

Tall Average Guy said:


> I don't disagree, but I was noting this with respect to Barnowl's ability to deal with her having sex with another man. While his wife is getting emotional support from this guy (and may be in an EA), Barnowl seems to be able to deal with that. However, he does not appear to be dealing with his wife potentially having sex with this guy. Their past history, as well as the history of sex in the marriage, may have something to do with that. Because of that, I suggest that Barnowl deal with that in IC.


 Completely agree. If she does decide to go through with that, it will be a dagger to the heart of Barnowl. But I do think that she believes it to be a fair trade for his emotional unavailability. (Not saying this is right, or a good way to think, but I think its where she is). She is aiming for the heart, and as much as I am ashamed to admit, I did the same as well. Never went through with it, but I wanted him to HURT. And I knew how to do that. Thank god I had TAM to talk some sense into me. I am not sure she has something like that.


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## Barnowl

I really want to be done. I think if anything we had a false R happening. In fact, my wife just informed me that at no point in our marriage counseling did she consider that we were getting back together. WTF? I don't get it. She is over it entirely, and conversations are just failing between us. Giving her space is my new mantra. I am not calling, texting, seeing her, etc. She can dictate when she is ready.

Oh, and to add insult to injury...I calmly explained how I own 100% of my choice to cheat, and I own my full 50% of the marriage problems. She told me that she is convinced that she did not contribute to the marriage problems at all...so I essentially have 200% of the burden. F**k that. No sense in trying anymore when she is obviously checked out, and not willing to try.


----------



## cpacan

Barnowl said:


> I really want to be done. I think if anything we had a false R happening. In fact, my wife just informed me that at no point in our marriage counseling did she consider that we were getting back together. WTF? I don't get it. She is over it entirely, and conversations are just failing between us. Giving her space is my new mantra. I am not calling, texting, seeing her, etc. She can dictate when she is ready.
> 
> Oh, and to add insult to injury...I calmly explained how I own 100% of my choice to cheat, and I own my full 50% of the marriage problems. She told me that she is convinced that she did not contribute to the marriage problems at all...so I essentially have 200% of the burden. F**k that. No sense in trying anymore when she is obviously checked out, and not willing to try.


Could be that there is nothing to do about it. But just to say.... you did the "I own my cheating, but...." thing again. You are not on the same page if in the same book.


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - I know you are dealing with your own pain right now, but what I think I am starting to see more and more of is you saying, "hey, I know I screwed up and I am really sorry - I know that I won't do that again - you just need to give me a chance and believe what I am saying. I have changed because of this. I don't understand why you are being so difficult. You should trust me and just take a leap of blind faith that we can work through this.".....and I also see "What is your problem. I own the affairs, so why can't you take some blame too on things that led me to have affairs."

While I believe that you belive all of that, there is no reason why your wife should. I am 3 months post DD and I still have my doubts with my WH, even though I have heard every promise in the book and he has shown true remorse, but every now and then he does something or says something that sends up a red flag and I put my guard back up. Could it be because he is still in his own pain becuuse of this - sure. But I also have to think that maybe it is because his heart is not totally in it - not because he doesn't want it to be, but becuase he has not gotten to that point yet - and that hurts. 

You keep saying you want her, but you are so easy to give up at the same time (even though you have not yet). Think about what you REALLY, REALLY want. No, your marriage will not be the same if you work it out and it should not be - it was broken before. What do you think you are capable of bringing to the table in order to make sure it is better? Do you really want her or are you just afraid to start over?

I suggest you ask her to meet up this weekend, talk calmly and find out if she thinks that after she does what she has to do if she is willing to give you another shot ever. If not, you have your answer. If maybe, you need to decide if you really want that, and if so, suck it up and give her space to work through this mess. If her answer is yes, you need to get yourself straight and start courting her again.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I really want to be done. I think if anything we had a false R happening. In fact, my wife just informed me that at no point in our marriage counseling did she consider that we were getting back together. WTF? I don't get it. She is over it entirely, and conversations are just failing between us. Giving her space is my new mantra. I am not calling, texting, seeing her, etc. She can dictate when she is ready.
> 
> Oh, and to add insult to injury...I calmly explained how I own 100% of my choice to cheat, and I own my full 50% of the marriage problems. She told me that she is convinced that she did not contribute to the marriage problems at all...so I essentially have 200% of the burden. F**k that. No sense in trying anymore when she is obviously checked out, and not willing to try.



I think you are doing yourself a disservice by continuing to try and roll all of that into one conversation. This should be the time where you accept 100% of the responsibility over your affair and try to see if you can earn her trust back. Instead you are pushing for the " I cheated BUT YOU didn't......" That will not work, and that will push her farther away. 

I feel confident when I say she isn't considering staying together because of the order in which you are trying to resolve things. She is hurt and angry. Your affairs have to be handled first and by itself.


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## cpacan

Barnowl said:


> Oh, and to add insult to injury...I calmly explained how I own 100% of my choice to cheat, and I own my full 50% of the marriage problems. She told me that she is convinced that she did not contribute to the marriage problems at all...so I essentially have 200% of the burden. F**k that. No sense in trying anymore when she is obviously checked out, and not willing to try.


Just read your post again. You really do need to make her take the blame for your cheating, don't you. It seems that you believe that she should take 25% of the blame for your bad decissions.

You don't seem to get it. I can tell you this; I have been very close to end our relationship some times since DD. It was never because I don't love her, it is always when she blameshifts, and it makes me either angry or just want to check out.


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## 50shades

Wow. While I hate what you did..I like where your head is at now. Keep it up and fight for your wife! She deserves it. It may not end well..but if you love her...fight for her!


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## eman

cpacan said:


> Just read your post again. You really do need to make her take the blame for your cheating, don't you. It seems that you believe that she should take 25% of the blame for your bad decissions.
> 
> You don't seem to get it. I can tell you this; I have been very close to end our relationship some times since DD. It was never because I don't love her, it is always when she blameshifts, and it makes me either angry or just want to check out.


I think I understand what Barnowl is trying to say. He is owning the infidelity 100%. He made the choice. Him alone. But, correct me if I'm speaking out of turn, he wants his wife to understand that the marriage problems are not all his fault. Did marriage problems lead to the infidelity......maybe, possibly, very likely. Does that mean his wife should take blame for the infidelity? Probably not. But he wants her to realize that the marriage is 50/50. It "takes two to tango" sort of thing.

However, I think DawnD said something that might be important..... It may be beneficial for Barnowl's wife, feeling betrayed, to have the counselor work through the infidelity first, and the emotions and feelings that has brought in to the situation. Then move on to the why's of the infidelity, and also address where both partners are responsible for a healthy marriage. I think if they tackle both the marriage issues and the infidelity at the same time (although they truly aren't completely separate) Barnowl's wife may feel like she is being blamed for the infidelity and she may close off and not truly see her husband's remorse.

I'm not the expert and I'm only suggesting an opinion, but I think that if things went well with that approach, that it would all come together at the end when Barnowl's wife would hopefully be more open to seeing that marriage problems may have led her husband down a path where HE chose to do something he is now sorry for. Still, not trying to "blame" the wife for the actual act.

Hopefully in my rambling I've made some bit of sense


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## Barnowl

Lots and lots of replies here! Let me try to address some of them.

1. Yes, I am certainly blame-shifting. And even if I am not completely blaming her, I am asking her to own up to her side of the marriages contribution. It is most likely too early to be doing that, and maybe it is a defense mechanism...I don't know, and I am trying not to do that to her, but it is hard! It is hard not to express how I feel. I need to get out of my own head, and get into her head, and just be supportive through all of this.

2. "What I REALLY REALLY want" - At this moment, I honestly don't know. I know that it makes me physically ill to think of her not being in my life. I want her in my life. I am very concerned about the future, and I need to focus on the moment and the task at hand, but again that is really really hard! I do know for certain that I don't want our old marriage back. I do know for certain that I love that woman. I do not know what I want right now, and it is stifling any R efforts.

3. I certainly need to get my mind right and figure out what I want. I am trying to give her space. I believe she is coming over tonight to see the animals, and I will ask her if she sees a future with me after she goes out and has her own experiences. I can tell from her actions that she doesn't want to bail out completely. She isn't in a place to say that we can R yet though either. It is a strange limbo, and the not-knowing is what is killing me. I need to focus on getting my head on straight while she goes out and does much of the same thing. Perhaps we can come back together and reconvene and decide if R is right for us. 

I just don't know how to do this. I am usually a very decisive person, but this has thrown my entire way of thinking for a loop. At times I am strong, and I am a good marriage rebuilder, but other times I am a whiny brat who blame-shifts and questions every action of hers without understanding that she is really just reacting to the pain I have caused. I feel like I am living with Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde....I am two or more persons at any point in time, and it is soul sucking, and hard to just keep my head above water right now.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

Barnowl said:


> I really want to be done. I think if anything we had a false R happening. In fact, my wife just informed me that at no point in our marriage counseling did she consider that we were getting back together. WTF? I don't get it. She is over it entirely, and conversations are just failing between us. Giving her space is my new mantra. I am not calling, texting, seeing her, etc. She can dictate when she is ready.


Then why is she in marriage counseling? Have you asked her?


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## Barnowl

Tall Average Guy said:


> Then why is she in marriage counseling? Have you asked her?


She told me she was worried that I would lie to the couselor about our marriage, and that I would blame her. She was there to "support me", but not there to rebuild our marriage...

Quick update - She will not be seeing me today. Things keep coming into her mind today, and she is emailing me questions, then she told me that she doesn't want to come over. I told her I would give her space. I am wondering if I need to go dark on this for a while for both of our sakes. Just to disconnect for a little while. She really feels like everything is ruined, and I cannot blame her for feeling that way. She needs time, and I need to give her time.


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## LookingForTheSun

Answer all of her questions FULLY no matter how hard it is for you. If there is more to them and you don't answer now, it will come back on you both. You may get angry or upset by the questions she has, but she is more messed up than you, believe it or not, and this is what she needs AT THIS MOMENT to help her figure stuff out and make her feel like she has a little control over the situation. 

A hard thing for a BS to deal with is that they had no say or any control when their WS committed adultery, and that hurts, makes them angry and bitter. Trickle Truth is horrible and disgusting. Show her you are committed to doing whatever she asks for her to forgive you and give you another chance. ANSWER EVERYTHING. Then you know you no longer have nothing to hide and she can make her decisions from that.

....and PLEASE - don't ever bring up the "you need to take some of the responsibility"....enough already. If she forgives you and moves on with you, she already knows that it can't go back to how it was and she will make sure that she does what she needs to do to make it work this time around. Now is not the time for any finger pointing on your part.


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## Tall Average Guy

Barnowl said:


> She told me she was worried that I would lie to the couselor about our marriage, and that I would blame her. She was there to "support me", but not there to rebuild our marriage...


Not sure that makes sense to me. In view of that, does it make sense to keep up marriage counseling? You definitely need to keep up your own IC. Not so sure about MC. On one hand, it may give her the space she needs. On the other, it has the potential to send the message that you don't care.



> Quick update - She will not be seeing me today. Things keep coming into her mind today, and she is emailing me questions, then she told me that she doesn't want to come over. I told her I would give her space. I am wondering if I need to go dark on this for a while for both of our sakes. Just to disconnect for a little while. She really feels like everything is ruined, and I cannot blame her for feeling that way. She needs time, and I need to give her time.


I think you have it right. Not about going dark, but about letting her control the timiing of the interactions for right now. Don't reach out to her, but do answer if she reaches out to you. Give her a month, then reach out to her and see if she is interested in talking more. I think it is a delicate balance you will need to achieve between showing you are interested in keeping your marriage and giving her space to heal a bit. Add the other man into this mix and I don't envy your situation.


----------



## Barnowl

As of Sunday, we are done with MC right now, and we will be seeing the counselor separately. I am going to continue with IC, and I belive she is too. 

I have been answering her questions fully, but the trust issue leads her to believe that I am lying. I have been answering her questions since DDay, and I see nothing to gain by holding back on answers. 

Finger pointing is done. It isn't helping obviously, and she feels blamed enough already for what has happened. I have my first solo counseling session tonight, and I am nervous for it. Maybe anxious, not nervous...I just don't know what is coming down the line, and that makes everything really hard. 

Time. Time is all we can count on right now. I think you are right about answering her, but not reaching out to her. That is so hard though, because I have been the one in the morning to send the first hello text message. If I don't send it, I feel like I am sending a sign to her that I don't want to communicate. Shutting down communication has been my biggest downfall, and hardest thing to cope with.


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## Acabado

> She told me she was worried that I would lie to the couselor about our marriage, and that I would blame her. She was there to "support me", but not there to rebuild our marriage...


As BSs we can't miss the obvious. She's indeed reacting to your betrayal but she's deep into another relationship therefore she's rewriting. It's human nature.Think about it, is she admited (herself first and then to you) she was at MC indeed to rebuild the marriage but now that BFF in in the picture decided to divorce it would be her decision. It's not she need any reason to end the marriage, you provided plenty. But in this case she was the one to cut the cord, while having a RA!.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Lots and lots of replies here! Let me try to address some of them.
> 
> 1. Yes, I am certainly blame-shifting. And even if I am not completely blaming her, I am asking her to own up to her side of the marriages contribution. It is most likely too early to be doing that, and maybe it is a defense mechanism...I don't know, and I am trying not to do that to her, but it is hard! It is hard not to express how I feel. I need to get out of my own head, and get into her head, and just be supportive through all of this.
> 
> 2. "What I REALLY REALLY want" - At this moment, I honestly don't know. I know that it makes me physically ill to think of her not being in my life. I want her in my life. I am very concerned about the future, and I need to focus on the moment and the task at hand, but again that is really really hard! I do know for certain that I don't want our old marriage back. I do know for certain that I love that woman. I do not know what I want right now, and it is stifling any R efforts.
> 
> 3. I certainly need to get my mind right and figure out what I want. I am trying to give her space. I believe she is coming over tonight to see the animals, and I will ask her if she sees a future with me after she goes out and has her own experiences. I can tell from her actions that she doesn't want to bail out completely. She isn't in a place to say that we can R yet though either. It is a strange limbo, and the not-knowing is what is killing me. I need to focus on getting my head on straight while she goes out and does much of the same thing. Perhaps we can come back together and reconvene and decide if R is right for us.
> 
> I just don't know how to do this. I am usually a very decisive person, but this has thrown my entire way of thinking for a loop. At times I am strong, and I am a good marriage rebuilder, but other times I am a whiny brat who blame-shifts and questions every action of hers without understanding that she is really just reacting to the pain I have caused. I feel like I am living with Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde....I am two or more persons at any point in time, and it is soul sucking, and hard to just keep my head above water right now.


 When you start feeling like you are going to blame-shift, come to your thread and post your frustrations. I personally feel that blame-shifting for anyone is about trying to avoid the realization of the destruction they have caused.

It is far too early to be pushing her to take responsibility for the problems in the marriage. You know that, we know that, now just remember it when you feel yourself wanting to push the issue. It is too soon. You need to give her a reason to want to fix the marriage, not try and force feed the fact that she is 50% at fault for the failing marriage.

I don't want to sound mean or rude, but you are focusing on yourself WAY too much. This time should be spent trying to get yourself straight and get your wife to trust you and see if she will give you another try. She will not have an answer immediately. A year out from DDay, I was still flip flopping. You had a three year EA, certainly you don't think she should get over that in just a few short months, do you? It takes time, and you will be in pain, but the aim is to put her pain first. 

If she does decide to give it another try with you, there will be plenty of opportunity for you to share your pain and explain how your needs weren't being met. But you need to move at her pace, and stop trying to force her into yours. I am dead serious when I say to post here instead. Post here, let the people here help guide you.


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## Barnowl

Acabado said:


> It's not she need any reason to end the marriage, you provided plenty. But in this case she was the one to cut the cord, while having a RA!.


But she refuses to cut the chord. Earlier today she told me that, "If you divorce me, I am going to flounder completely financially" She wants to hold onto the chord...I don't get it. :scratchhead:

I really don't understand anything right now though. I am a sense of security in some ways, yet the source of her greatest pain. It is a difficult place to be in.


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## Barnowl

DawnD said:


> you are focusing on yourself WAY too much.


I agree!! Even this thread is a bit selfish...but thank you for your words, and I will try to vent here instead of sending her angry emails or texts. I have moved waaaay too fast, and I told her that last night. Calmly I said, "I pushed to you get over what I have done and focus on the marriage without fully working through the damage I have caused, and I am sorry". I told her I would slow down and move at her pace. That we need to focus on my infidelity, and working towards understanding it and procesing it. I am trying, but then the whole OM issue comes up, and I find myself turning the tables of the conversation. Ugh, this is so hard!


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## Tall Average Guy

Barnowl said:


> But she refuses to cut the chord. Earlier today she told me that, "If you divorce me, I am going to flounder completely financially" She wants to hold onto the chord...I don't get it. :scratchhead:
> 
> I really don't understand anything right now though. I am a sense of security in some ways, yet the source of her greatest pain. It is a difficult place to be in.


To put it crudely, she is test driving this new guy while leaving you as the back-up plan.

To put it nicer, she found someone to lend her support and help her through her pain. She has entered into an EA/PA with him. Her conscious decision is to leave the marriage. Her subconscious is telling her to wait and make sure this new guy is right for her. I doubt it is intentional, or with her cackling while riding her broomstick. Rather it is the combination of you being the known factor, you causing the hurt, and her meeting this other man. Your cheating turned your marriage into an audition again.


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## anonymouskitty

Separate your finances first and stop being the chord. You have no obligation to stay with her, yes you cheated (your decision) she decided to get back at you for it. Just because she's been screwed over doesn't give her any right to screw you over no matter how you or she try to convince each other that she does


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## Zanna

Barnowl, you are also the person that can help her heal.

You need to get a handle on your selfish mind-set. I'm sorry but your D-day was in May. Give the woman time! She is hurting more than you can even begin to understand. Commit to at least 6 months and during that time, do not threaten D, do not say you're done. Just commit to it.

Start with one week or one day at a time. I'm guessing if you truly commit to it, your results will be positive. You have one foot out the door and I'm sure she senses it.

And park the whole 50/50 blame for the marriage problems talk for now. She is not ready and you are pushing her away.

Your D-day was in May! Put that on a sticky note and put it on your mirror.


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## anonymouskitty

Zanna I beg to disagree here, but an RA is not going to get them to a better place where both their slates are rubbed clean

Two wrongs don't make a right


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## Barnowl

anonymouskitty said:


> Separate your finances first and stop being the chord. You have no obligation to stay with her, yes you cheated (your decision) she decided to get back at you for it. Just because she's been screwed over doesn't give her any right to screw you over no matter how you or she try to convince each other that she does


The only financial support I am offering her now is that I pay for the car and car insurance. I did pay for her first month's rent, but after that she is on her own with her bills. We have always had separate checking accounts, and we have a joint savings which she is refusing to recognize as half hers because my paycheck is what funded it. At times she wants nothing from me, or to do with me...but I do want her to have reliable transportation, so I keep her car payment made. We have also discussed selling that car, but we just bought it in January, so with state taxes and registration, I need to pay it down a bit in order to get it to where we can sell it and not gut the savings account. At that point she will borrow her parent's extra car. I see no reason to pull the car from her now because I won't drive it. I have two cars of my own...(another unrelated fact is that I tend to go through a lot of cars. Kind of a hobby, so I always have one or two for me kicking around)



Zanna said:


> Barnowl, you are also the person that can help her heal.
> 
> You need to get a handle on your selfish mind-set. I'm sorry but your D-day was in May. Give the woman time! She is hurting more than you can even begin to understand. Commit to at least 6 months and during that time, do not threaten D, do not say you're done. Just commit to it.
> 
> Start with one week or one day at a time. I'm guessing if you truly commit to it, your results will be positive. You have one foot out the door and I'm sure she senses it.
> 
> And park the whole 50/50 blame for the marriage problems talk for now. She is not ready and you are pushing her away.
> 
> Your D-day was in May! Put that on a sticky note and put it on your mirror.


I jut literally made a sticky for my computer that reads "D-DAY MAY 6". Maybe that will humble me a bit when I look at it all day in my office...


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## DawnD

The OM: I truly think its either one of two things. Either A.) She is trying to prove her point that she can also find someone else to f*** and meet her emotional needs or B.) She really thinks that this will somehow be worth it for you to feel the pain she felt.

I don't think either of those are good ideas, but I also will admit to having thought that way myself. Does your wife have a group similar to this one to help her see what a horrible idea it is to have a revenge affair?


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## Barnowl

DawnD said:


> Does your wife have a group similar to this one to help her see what a horrible idea it is to have a revenge affair?


No. She has a group of work friends who know and respect the OM, and who all hate me for what I have done to her. If anything she has a RA support group. I don't know what her intentions are, and she just tells me, "I don't know", and she also tells me that all she wants is to be happy, and that hanging out with the OM makes her happy, and she can disconnect from the pain...so all I can do is let it play out...as sh*tty as that is, I feel it is my only option. I might just be losing her to him. I don't know. I honestly don't know.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> No. She has a group of work friends who know and respect the OM, and who all hate me for what I have done to her. If anything she has a RA support group. I don't know what her intentions are, and she just tells me, "I don't know", and she also tells me that all she wants is to be happy, and that hanging out with the OM makes her happy, and she can disconnect from the pain...so all I can do is let it play out...as sh*tty as that is, I feel it is my only option. I might just be losing her to him. I don't know. I honestly don't know.


Have you had a chance to tell her how awful your affairs make you feel, knowing you hurt her so deep and that you might lose it all? ( I mean a time to do this where you haven't gotten angry or defensive.) Tell her how if affects your opinion of yourself, as well as others have lost respect for you? It might help to let her know exactly how affairs affect self image, but I am not sure if you two are at a place where you could convey that to her.


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## eman

DawnD said:


> Have you had a chance to tell her how awful your affairs make you feel, knowing you hurt her so deep and that you might lose it all? ( I mean a time to do this where you haven't gotten angry or defensive.) Tell her how if affects your opinion of yourself, as well as others have lost respect for you? It might help to let her know exactly how affairs affect self image, but I am not sure if you two are at a place where you could convey that to her.


Oh man I can only imagine what my BW would say if I said that to her right now. I think she's still so boiling mad at me that she'd tell me "good!!"..... that is if she actually spoke to me


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## Acabado

You are the back up plan. MC is useless while she's deep into an affair. We tell this to all the betrayed newbies. It's not different in this case because he cheated first, she is attached to another man. Period. The fact he cheated doesn't change a sh!t, furthermore the effects of the entitlement she feels is - if "deserved" - no different of the average cheater or even worse. The fact you "understand" the source of the entitlemnt don't change a sh!t either.
In the same fashion there's no way to "reason" while an active affair, there's no way to love her back while in an active affair.
I'd go completely dark on her.


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## DawnD

eman said:


> Oh man I can only imagine what my BW would say if I said that to her right now. I think she's still so boiling mad at me that she'd tell me "good!!"..... that is if she actually spoke to me


 It really can come to a shock. I was blown away when my H told me how he felt his cheating had affected his self image and how everyone else thought of him. (Not too many knew, but the ones who did were blunt with their disgust towards him). It was eye opening. My H likened it to being the cause of this huge car wreck where people died and were horribly injured. Just knowing you did all that was horrible, and having to live with knowing that was a nightmare. I had never thought of it that way until then.


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## anonymouskitty

Acabado said:


> You are the back up plan. MC is useless while she's deep into an affair. We tell this to all the betrayed newbies. It's not different in this case because he cheated first, she is attached to another man. Period. The fact he cheated doesn't change a sh!t, furthermore the effects of the entitlement she feels is - if "deserved" - no different of the average cheater or even worse. The fact you "understand" the source of the entitlemnt don't change a sh!t either.
> In the same fashion there's no way to "reason" while an active affair, there's no way to love her back while in an active affair.
> I'd go completely dark on her.


Or I'd keep her on her toes "Go on lamb, get down and dirty with this guy.....I know exactly what I'm gonna do next " smile and walk away

At this point she'd probably boil over saying how she's entitled to an affair of her own
Barnowl: Smile
Wife: You bastard
Barnowl:Smile
Wife: I'm gonna make you pay
Barnowl: Smile and walkaway feeling pleased with yourself

Shift her attention from the OM to you once she realizes that you're not going to be her security blanket she's going to have second thoughts on pursuing the OM

PS: I'd also pick a dress for her to wear next time she goes off to meet him. trust me the more aloof you appear the more she's going to be confused about you

Again unpredictable things will throw her off balance, right now you're following the "remorseful WS with BS hellbent on revenge" script, break the pattern friend


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## Barnowl

Acabado said:


> You are the back up plan. MC is useless while she's deep into an affair. We tell this to all the betrayed newbies. It's not different in this case because he cheated first, she is attached to another man. Period. The fact he cheated doesn't change a sh!t, furthermore the effects of the entitlement she feels is - if "deserved" - no different of the average cheater or even worse. The fact you "understand" the source of the entitlemnt don't change a sh!t either.
> In the same fashion there's no way to "reason" while an active affair, there's no way to love her back while in an active affair.
> I'd go completely dark on her.


I am going to bring up this very point tonight with the counselor and see what his opinion is. I don't know if I will do dark on her, but I will certainly turn some shade of twilight...responsive, yet not reaching out to her. Going dark is a scary thought for me right now.


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## DawnD

anonymouskitty said:


> Or I'd keep her on her toes "Go on lamb, get down and dirty with this guy.....I know exactly what I'm gonna do next " smile and walk away


Honestly, with his three affairs, she might not care..... I think that is the worry Barnowl has right now.


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## Barnowl

DawnD said:


> It really can come to a shock. I was blown away when my H told me how he felt his cheating had affected his self image and how everyone else thought of him. (Not too many knew, but the ones who did were blunt with their disgust towards him). It was eye opening. My H likened it to being the cause of this huge car wreck where people died and were horribly injured. Just knowing you did all that was horrible, and having to live with knowing that was a nightmare. I had never thought of it that way until then.


Oh she knows full well how it makes me feel. My self-disgust. My guilt. She knows. She has consolled me while I was sobbing about it. She knows completely how it makes me feel. I just don't believe that she thinks she is doing anything "wrong" under the circumstances we are in.

Would it be too much to call her mom (who she respects a ton) and tell her what I know of her and the other man? Her mom up to this point has done nothing but assure me that my wife speaks of him as only a friend. I am not sure if I hould expose this to her mom, or if I should let my wife tell her...I don't want to alienate her from her family, but I feel like her mom would talk to her about it in a rational way.


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## eman

DawnD said:


> It really can come to a shock. I was blown away when my H told me how he felt his cheating had affected his self image and how everyone else thought of him. (Not too many knew, but the ones who did were blunt with their disgust towards him). It was eye opening. My H likened it to being the cause of this huge car wreck where people died and were horribly injured. Just knowing you did all that was horrible, and having to live with knowing that was a nightmare. I had never thought of it that way until then.


I wish I could somehow get my wife on this forum. I don't think she even knows what forums are except for seeing me on the bodybuilding and car forums before lol


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## DawnD

eman said:


> I wish I could somehow get my wife on this forum. I don't think she even knows what forums are except for seeing me on the bodybuilding and car forums before lol


Have you been reading any of the books that people here typically recommend eman? sorry, didn't mean to threadjack Barnowl.


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## anonymouskitty

@DawnD: if she didn't care she'd be out the door before Barnowl could say stop. Now that she's in the A she might not but she will when she knows Barnboy isn't going to be around and any thoughts on revenge will die


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## Acabado

> Honestly, with his three affairs, she might not care..... I think that is the worry Barnowl has right now.


Likely. Again this doesn't change anything about the chances OP has to win her back while in an active affair. How is it diferent?
He's going to marriage counseling, doing his best, she knows damm well he's ready to do the heavy lifting. She doesn't care. MC is completely useless when someone is attached to another person, what's the point? Every BS know it.
Another thing, she already lost respect for him, he won't gain any respect behaving clingly, begging her, showing no self respect.
He needs to put it clear that he accept it's the consequence of his actions but he already disrespected himself enough becoming a cheater, he can't afford to keep doing it being a cuckold. He admit divorce is horrible, the last thing he wants but sharing her is even worse. He already had horrible boundaires. He needs to fix it beyond what may happen to his marriage. For himself.


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## DawnD

anonymouskitty said:


> @DawnD: if she didn't care she'd be out the door before Barnowl could say stop. Now that she's in the A she might not but she will when she knows Barnboy isn't going to be around and any thoughts on revenge will die


I doubt it. Truly, as a BS, my anger could get to that stage of " I don't give a f*** what you do anymore, I am gonna have my fun". It almost got there until my H managed to reach out to me and explain some things that he went through. I don't necessarily think barnowl will be able to talk to her about it, but maybe a family member who knows what is happening?


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## DawnD

Acabado said:


> Likely. Again this doesn't change anything about the chances OP has to win her back while in an active affair. How is it diferent?
> He's going to marriage counseling, doing his best, she knows damm well he's ready to do the heavy lifting. She doesn't care. MC is completely useless when someone is attached to another person, what's the point? Every BS know it.
> Another thing, she already lost respect for him, he won't gain any respect behaving clingly, begging her, showing no self respect.
> He needs to put it clear that he accept it's the consequence of his actions but he already disrespected himself enough becoming a cheater, he can't afford to keep doing it being a cuckold. He admit divorce is horrible, the last thing he wants but sharing her is even worse. He already had horrible boundaires. He needs to fix it beyond what may happen to his marriage. For himself.


 She DOESN'T know that he is willing to do all the heavy lifting, because most of their conversations involve him wanting her to start taking responsibility of the state of the marriage without giving him time to heal from his affairs. I absolutely agree that she is in the wrong here, my thought was I think barnowl is afraid to hear her say " eff it, do what you want" and have her stroll off with the OM.


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## eman

DawnD said:


> Have you been reading any of the books that people here typically recommend eman? sorry, didn't mean to threadjack Barnowl.


Ya I threadjack Barnowl's thread quite a bit lol. I think he's ready to kick me out 

I just received "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda J. MacDonald. I think that was one book someone recommended here. What books are you referring to if I might ask?


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## Zanna

anonymouskitty said:


> Zanna I beg to disagree here, but an RA is not going to get them to a better place where both their slates are rubbed clean
> 
> Two wrongs don't make a right


Disagree with what? I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't agree with an RA at all. I told him earlier that IF she has an affair, to treat it like any other A and expose it. I'm not suggesting he sit back and let her have an A. 

But I do think she's hurting and she could be trying to make him jealous and therefore making all sort of dumb comments because she's hurt. I told my H that I should have an affair with the very attractive actor that sent me a FB friend request in the weeks after D-day. The first 6 weeks after D-day, I was a ranting, raving, crazy, threatening mess. I didn't do it obviously but acting a bit nuts only 6 weeks after D-day seems to be within the realm of normal. She could be testing him. Again, I'm not saying an RA is right or that he should sit back and take it and by all means, protect yourself, Barnowl but I'm not quite sure she's really done either.


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## Acabado

Remove yourself off the equation.


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## anonymouskitty

Ah right woman scorned and all, forget my advice OP


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## Barnowl

To address a few things. When she started dating this guy, I told her I would date, and that immediately blew up in her saying that I already had sex with three women, and she can't stand me doing it more. So I told her I won't date anyone.

She is in place to be told that there needs to be boundaries. Again, her anger is such that she feels completely justified in her actions. I feel that filing for separation or for divorce would only push her away. I think I need to wait a little longer before pulling that trigger.

I still wonder if talking to her mom is the right thing to do. I am tempted to call her right now...


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## DawnD

eman said:


> Ya I threadjack Barnowl's thread quite a bit lol. I think he's ready to kick me out
> 
> I just received "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful" by Linda J. MacDonald. I think that was one book someone recommended here. What books are you referring to if I might ask?


I actually don't have the book list, but I know there were a few aimed at the BS's, perhaps you could PM sigma and see if he knows?


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## anonymouskitty

Barnowl said:


> To address a few things. When she started dating this guy, I told her I would date, and that immediately blew up in her saying that I already had sex with three women, and she can't stand me doing it more.


See, that right there tells me she's doing it more for revenge and an ego boost( needed but can be done so in other ways) 

And that shows that she does care, follow my script from the previous page OP:smthumbup:

Stop thinking you're powerless over the situation OP, you are not. If being an arsehole is the only way to get her to snap out of her fog then you step up to the crease. You both have to be clear headed if you're going to make it across. And stop having affairs for goodness sake, both of you are in enough pain to last a life time


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## Acabado

If you don't want to file, don't do it. BUt remove your self from her while she's flaunting this OM, for heaven's sake.
In that last MC tell her you was wrong, you had no excuse, you accept you lost her being a two face liar and a cheater but you are moving on, becoming a better person, you won't talk with her except for the logistics while she's out there with another man.


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## Zanna

Barnowl said:


> To address a few things. When she started dating this guy, I told her I would date, and that immediately blew up in her saying that I already had sex with three women, and she can't stand me doing it more. So I told her I won't date anyone.
> 
> She is in place to be told that there needs to be boundaries. Again, her anger is such that she feels completely justified in her actions. I feel that filing for separation or for divorce would only push her away. I think I need to wait a little longer before pulling that trigger.
> 
> I still wonder if talking to her mom is the right thing to do. I am tempted to call her right now...


If you have a good R with her, call her. Tell her you love your wife, you're deeply remorseful and you will do anything to save your M but you cannot sit by while she has her own affair and destroys your M further. Don't say it with anger though.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> To address a few things. When she started dating this guy, I told her I would date, and that immediately blew up in her saying that I already had sex with three women, and she can't stand me doing it more. So I told her I won't date anyone.
> 
> She is in place to be told that there needs to be boundaries. Again, her anger is such that she feels completely justified in her actions. I feel that filing for separation or for divorce would only push her away. I think I need to wait a little longer before pulling that trigger.
> 
> I still wonder if talking to her mom is the right thing to do. I am tempted to call her right now...



I don't know how you want to address it OP, but I do think that as long as your intent is to save her from the hurt and self image issues she may suffer from cheating, then I think bringing her mom in could really be a good idea. But I also do not know your wife, so I would get a few more opinions on that matter first.


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## Barnowl

anonymouskitty said:


> See, that right there tells me she's doing it more for revenge and an ego boost( needed but can be done so in other ways)
> 
> And that shows that she does care, follow my script from the previous page OP:smthumbup:
> 
> Stop thinking you're powerless over the situation OP, you are not. If being an arsehole is the only way to get her to snap out of her fog then you step up to the crease. You both have to be clear headed if you're going to make it across. And stop having affairs for goodness sake, both of you are in enough pain to last a life time


I would follow your script, but she won't see me or let me over to her apartment right now, haha. I do like acabado saying that I need to tell her I am going to work on myelf, and I can't do that while watching her date someone. Does that sound like I am just walking away? God, I don't want to push her away, but I want to show her that I won't put up with a RA.


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## anonymouskitty

Well then tell her that when her highness decides to come out from the royal ball, the footman will sadly be on his way making merry with the maids


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## anonymouskitty

Acabado said:


> Remove yourself off the equation.


^wisdom right here


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## DawnD

How do you intend to show her that she should forgive your affairs Barnowl? Actually not being a smart a** here, trying to prepare you for what she is going to throw at you. You will tell her you will not put up with her having an A, but you had three. I think she might have some strong urges to show you how thats being a hypocrite. Be prepared to answer those questions!


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## anonymouskitty

Dawn, there are three outcomes to this situation 
1) A long bitter divorce, if he sits back and lets things flow
2) wifey snapping out of the fog and coming back to HER OP
3) A divorce that OP initiates because he simply does not wish to stay as Mr Backup plan


Forgiveness later, after dust settles, right now time to make decisions
- Confucius


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## DawnD

I am very aware of that anon. I am also aware that I wouldn't go into a script half ****ed without a plan. He simply needs to know how to respond to those questions before heading straight in to it.


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## Barnowl

I don't have any idea how to answer those questions...and she has asked me them before. I tried calling her mom. I will call again later. Her mom will most likely not be happy that my wife's "just a friend" is now someone that is much more than just a friend.

I like that I can tell her that my affairs have made me feel like a less respectable person, and that I don't want her to feel that way. That she shouldn't compromise her moral standing on anger, and that if she really feels that she needs to have sex with someone else in order to process my betrayal, then we need to file for divorce so she can go forward with a clean conscience.

Does that sound like total B*llS*it?


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## anonymouskitty

I mean what's there in simply giving her a phone call saying you're about to initiate D proceedings?


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## cabin fever

give her some time. A few days of NOTHING can be everything! 

Like you said you don't want the same marriage. I am willing to be she doesn't either. 

What ever it was you did the past, I'd do the opposite. Go Dark man. If you want to save your marriage, you have to play by her rules for the time being.


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## anonymouskitty

Not BS at all Barn. that is the right way to go about this a letter or a phone call saying that you're sorry and then hoping she has a better future, again as i said you're going to narrow the outcomes to 2, if you're lucky it'll be R if not it'll be D, can't say you don't deserve it at this point goodness man 3??


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## Barnowl

Go dark, go dark...it has started. She was the last to email, and I have not responded, and I won't be. I won't call her between now and counseling either. I have a feeling she will call or text me tonight about it, and I will need to decide if I answer. I still think I should be somewhat responsive as to just not push her away...maybe I just don't know how, or don't want to play the game.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I don't have any idea how to answer those questions...and she has asked me them before. I tried calling her mom. I will call again later. Her mom will most likely not be happy that my wife's "just a friend" is now someone that is much more than just a friend.
> 
> I like that I can tell her that my affairs have made me feel like a less respectable person, and that I don't want her to feel that way. That she shouldn't compromise her moral standing on anger, and that if she really feels that she needs to have sex with someone else in order to process my betrayal, then we need to file for divorce so she can go forward with a clean conscience.
> 
> Does that sound like total B*llS*it?



I think it'll do. Mentally prepare yourself for the fact she may say to go ahead and start the D paperwork. 

You fell really short on showing remorse, and she might be (wrongly) spending this time getting ready for that anyway with this OM. Keep your anger in check, keep your talk as short as you can, and make sure you do not in any way blame shift her for your affairs.


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## Barnowl

I jut sent this email to her response a while back...she was telling me to work on myself and that she needs time to process her own emotions. I hope this doesn't backfire!

"Yes, I will focus on myself. I know you need to focus on yourself as well. Please let me lend you some advice. My affairs have made me feel like a less respectable person, and someone who I don't like or believe in anymore. I don't want you to feel that way. You shouldn't compromise your moral standing based on a decision made from anger. If you really feel the need to be intimate with someone else in order to process my betrayal, then we really need to file for divorce or legal separation so you can move forward with a clean conscience. I am not pushing you away. I just hope for your own mental health sake that you make better decisions than I did, and you don't go the route of an affair. Take your time."


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## anonymouskitty

Perfect, grab a beer and sit back


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I jut sent this email to her response a while back...she was telling me to work on myself and that she needs time to process her own emotions. I hope this doesn't backfire!
> 
> "Yes, I will focus on myself. I know you need to focus on yourself as well. Please let me lend you some advice. My affairs have made me feel like a less respectable person, and someone who I don't like or believe in anymore. I don't want you to feel that way. You shouldn't compromise your moral standing based on a decision made from anger. If you really feel the need to be intimate with someone else in order to process my betrayal, then we really need to file for divorce or legal separation so you can move forward with a clean conscience. I am not pushing you away. I just hope for your own mental health sake that you make better decisions than I did, and you don't go the route of an affair. Take your time."


This is completely out in left field, but do you know if your wife is aware that she has to be happy with herself? She is turning to this OM to make her feel better, when honestly she needs to turn to herself, dust off, and get to a better place. From what it sounds like ( I am making huge assumptions here) she may be one who feels other people make them happy. Whats your opinion on this Barnowl?


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## Barnowl

She is highly co-dependent. I think in her heart she knows she needs to be happy with herself, and that is an issue she said she wanted to discuss with the IC, but in reality, I think she is clinging to this guy because he makes her feel happy...I am shaking after sending that email....I don't know why, but I am sitting here wishing I could recall it. 

Hopefully it was the right thing to say.


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## anonymouskitty

It was Barn, don't doubt it. Listen at some point in time we must come to a place where we're ready to accept the situation. What your wife does now is up to her. But at least you'll have the satisfaction in knowing that you didn't prolong the pain


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## Mario Kempes

Barnowl said:


> She is highly co-dependent. I think in her heart she knows she needs to be happy with herself, and that is an issue she said she wanted to discuss with the IC, but in reality, I think she is clinging to this guy because he makes her feel happy...I am shaking after sending that email....I don't know why, but I am sitting here wishing I could recall it.
> 
> *Hopefully it was the right thing to say*.


I think you did the right thing, Barnowl. As Kitty said, sit back now and see what happens....


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## Zanna

I agree that email was good. It doesn't blame her for your affairs and it shows you get it. Awesome. I hope she really thinks about what she has to lose.


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## Barnowl

Thank you all for your help today. I feel like I am on a better path. One that is scary, and might have some elements of the 180 in it...but I agree that I shouldn't be subjected to a RA on the basis of my own infidelity. I hope she takes those words to heart and really thinks about what she has within herself to lose. I really feel like a shell of the person I was. Not respectable, not honest, not a good decision-maker. Those are all traits that I need to re-learn, and I need to become OK with myself, and re-learn to respect the person in the mirror looking back at me. I think once that happens I will be in a place to really start a R with my wife, or maybe even move on with my life alone.

Thank you all.


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## eman

let us know how counseling goes


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## Barnowl

eman said:


> let us know how counseling goes


All I have is individual counseling. We aren't doing couples anymore...but yes, I will update with what the counselor says to what I am feeling and how I am trying to process everything.


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## cpacan

Tell me something, why do you feel so bad about the thought of your wife having sex with another man? (other than "two wrongs don't make a right" explanation).
Do you actually deep down feel entitled to have affairs yourself while it is immoral for others? Just curious.


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## Zanna

You're doing really well with the self-reflection, Barnowl. Give yourself credit.

Your wife could get into another R and that man could cheat. You on the other hand, have learned from your mistakes and truly get that cheating does not solve issues and in fact, makes them worse. That in itself makes you less likely to ever cheat again. Keep your boundaries high, very high around women though.


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## Barnowl

That is a good question. I think it is a jealousy and pride thing. Just to think of someone being intimate with her that way makes my blood boil. Even though, I have done the same. It is a double standard. It feels raw and like it comes from a subconscious level to not want another man being with my wife. 

It makes no sense because I did the very same thing. I think at the heart of it, it feels primal to me. Who knows...alpha male bulls*it and whatever. 

I can't control her actions though. She will do what she will do. She knows how I feel, and that is all I can do right now.


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## eman

Barnowl said:


> That is a good question. I think it is a jealousy and pride thing. *Just to think of someone being intimate with her that way makes my blood boil.* Even though, I have done the same. It is a double standard. It feels raw and like it comes from a subconscious level to not want another man being with my wife.
> 
> It makes no sense because I did the very same thing. I think at the heart of it, it feels primal to me. Who knows...alpha male bulls*it and whatever.
> 
> I can't control her actions though. She will do what she will do. She knows how I feel, and that is all I can do right now.


This is the very thought I keep in the front of my mind to remind me/help me understand just a little bit of what my BW is going through. I have to tell myself that this is what I did to her. This is how she feels every single time she thinks about it (of course how she feels in her own way)


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## Zanna

It makes no sense only because you didn't think about how it would feel if she did it when you were doing it. 

But you having already cheated doesn't make it hurt any less for her to do it to you and it shouldn't. I think we get that.

There was a part of me that wanted to hurt my H too but then I thought, do I want to be happy or do I want to be right and vengeful? Making him hurt was not going to make me happy in the long run.


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## cpacan

Barnowl said:


> That is a good question. I think it is a jealousy and pride thing. Just to think of someone being intimate with her that way makes my blood boil. Even though, I have done the same. It is a double standard. It feels raw and like it comes from a subconscious level to not want another man being with my wife.
> 
> It makes no sense because I did the very same thing. I think at the heart of it, it feels primal to me. Who knows...alpha male bulls*it and whatever.
> 
> I can't control her actions though. She will do what she will do. She knows how I feel, and that is all I can do right now.


I like your reflections and honesty. I know we are all different on this subject. 
Had my wife had this attitude towards me, I would have been furious.


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## happyman64

Bar owl,

Leave her Mom alone.

Your text is fine.

Give your wife the space she needs to heal and find happiness. You cannot control her nor set the onditions for your separation. You lost that right.

And stop worrying about the other guy. She will not end up with him. He is just her rebound. She will find that out sooner or later.

It is time to work on you. Stop worrying if you are going to date because your wife might date.

Tighten your belt, go to ic and fix your darn issues. Become a good honest person for yourself.

Maybe you will R with your wife. Maybe not. Maybe she will get her sex issues straightened out, maybe not.

What matters is that you take responsibility for yourself and your own actions.

Good Luck
HM64


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## Barnowl

I did end up calling her mom. We have a good relationship, but the conversation did get a little heated. She has the best intentions of her little girl in her mind that is for sure. I am pulling back. I need to leave her family alone. Work on myself. Let her affair or whatever it will become work itself out. I think I will be better with no contact. I don't feel the persistent urge to call her right now like I normally do...


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## Barnowl

Post-counseling update. We focused a lot on my decision surrounding filing for divorce or not. The counselor pushed me to consider my reasoning before making such a life altering decision. I talked to my wife tonight about that email I sent. She is firm in her feelings that she is not having an "affair" because we are separated. I told her that while we are married it is an affair, and I was going to file for divorce. She simply said, "ok" and that was the last thing I said to her. I don't know what to do...


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## anonymouskitty

For now your decision was the best, I'm certain that your wife was angry as hell which is why she was in denial and i still think she believes that you want go all the way, you will which is when she'll either be jolted back to her senses or she'll accept it. Whatever happens, the outcome is going to be perfect for you, don't doubt that mate.If it comes to D you'll move on and grow, this will serve as a learning experience of sorts for future relationships


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## keko

You can file for divorce to show her you're behind your words and won't put up with her "affair", and it can be stopped anytime you change your mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cpacan

I am starting to trigger by this sense of entitlement.

Did you ever have this conversation:

"Yes, I am going to marry you. I am the alpha type, and I am the one that makes the mistakes in this house. You can choose to forgive me or not, but know this, that if you ever make a mistake yourself, I will divorce you in a second."

Since I can't say this to your wife... you should file emediatly. Move on to another relationship and you will get the chance to make the ruleset crystal clear to your partner beforehand.


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## Barnowl

cpacan - I don't know if it is a sense of entitlement. The decision to file for divorce is weighing on my heart very heavily. I asked her today if she would want to return to a marriage with me after having her own experiences. She told me that maybe someday in the future, but that she feels a divorce is the best thing right now. She isn't fighting it, in fact, she is bringing over her bank statements and paystubs tonight so I can put them in the financial disclosure. I think "acceptance" is an understatement. She is ready for it. I am not, but it is my only choice right now. If I file now, we can always cancel it, or we can always get back together in the future...but this will stop the dragged out pain that I am feeling while watching her be with someone else right in front of my eyes. I am not bitter, angry, or anything...I am just really empty and sad feeling.


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## anonymouskitty

Barn, its over mate, time for some reflection and healing


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## Mario Kempes

anonymouskitty said:


> Barn, its over mate, time for some reflection and healing


I think so too, Barnowl. Really sorry for you.


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## morituri

Barn, while I believe that it is extremely foolish for your wife to have an exit affair to make herself feel better, just like you did with your multiple betrayals, the other members are right that you do need to move on and file. You also need to seek professional counseling to change the behavior patterns that made it easy for you to cheat multiple times. Everything comes to an end, including our relationships and eventually our own lives.


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## Barnowl

Thanks everyone for your support. As the cheater in the relationship, I really need to tell everyone here thank you for being so kind to me through this. I will update this thread, and keep it going through whatever happens. Mostly just for myself so I have a place to vent and release some of my emotions. The papers will most likely be filed early next week depending on when I can get all of the financial stuff I need.


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## morituri

You can also help yourself by posting on other threads. Your experience, as the cheating spouse, may help other cheating spouses coming here to start making the right decisions for themselves and their marriages. Give it some thought.


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## Paladin

cpacan said:


> I am starting to trigger by this sense of entitlement.
> 
> Did you ever have this conversation:
> 
> "Yes, I am going to marry you. I am the alpha type, and I am the one that makes the mistakes in this house. You can choose to forgive me or not, but know this, that if you ever make a mistake yourself, I will divorce you in a second."
> 
> Since I can't say this to your wife... you should file emediatly. Move on to another relationship and you will get the chance to make the ruleset crystal clear to your partner beforehand.


That really is not a fair assessment of the situation. Yes he made a mistake, he tried to own up to it. Is he supposed to sit by and watch his wife piss all over what a marriage is supposed to be? Two wrongs dont make a right, no matter how much you hate what he did.


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - I am truly sorry for the course this seems to be taking. I wish you the best and hope that you stay strong and come out of this a better and stronger person. She may be going through the motions that she feels she needs right now or that she has been enouraged to take by family and friends. Try to stay on friendly terms - you never know what could happen - this could be the jolt you both need to see what could have been and what could be, or it could be the door to new opportunities and a fresh, clean and honest start.


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## cpacan

Paladin said:


> That really is not a fair assessment of the situation. Yes he made a mistake, he tried to own up to it. Is he supposed to sit by and watch his wife piss all over what a marriage is supposed to be? *Two wrongs dont make a right, no matter how much you hate what he did.*


Well, many people, especially on the cheating side, seem to like this saying. So I guess that the trick is to be the first one to make the wrong first?

And no, it was not just one mistake, I remind you. One EA and two times PA. So I would call it very bad judgement and decissions on a number of times.

I will give OP credit for being nearly there showing remorse, I really do, he just needs to eliminate the "I am responsible, but..." from his vocabularium.

I guess that people are different in how much they can take, but asking your spouse to stand up for so much more than you are willing to take yourself, well, it's just hypocritical IMO.
Or is the reason that OP actually felt good about his affairs while they lasted (I bet he did, otherwise he wouldn't have had more than one) - he doesn't wish to let his wife experience the feelgood when it is not supplied by him? (he suggested that himself ealier on).

I know I am outnumberet on this viewpoint, but that's just the way I feel. And yes, I think it's a fair assesment.

But I agree with everybody else, they should divorce, my opinion is just based on a different reasoning.


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## keko

Never thought I would say this to a 'cheater' but Im sorry Barnowl. I wish you the best of luck for the future whether your wife forgives you or find another love.


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## Paladin

cpacan said:


> Well, many people, especially on the cheating side, seem to like this saying. So I guess that the trick is to be the first one to make the wrong first?


Not sure how things are on the cheating side, as my fWS stepped out on me. The trick, my friend, is to remain faithful to your spouse throughout the entirety of your relationship, not to be the first one to screw up.



cpacan said:


> And no, it was not just one mistake, I remind you. One EA and two times PA. So I would call it very bad judgement and decissions on a number of times.


Call it whatever you want to call it. Call him a scumbag a-hole for destroying his marriage, but dont use his a-holsih behavior to justify more a-holish behavior.



cpacan said:


> I will give OP credit for being nearly there showing remorse, I really do, he just needs to eliminate the "I am responsible, but..." from his vocabularium.


Throughout this entire thread he has made attempts to own what he did 100% without justifying it with a 'but' not sure where you see him doing otherwise.



cpacan said:


> I guess that people are different in how much they can take, but asking your spouse to stand up for so much more than you are willing to take yourself, well, it's just hypocritical IMO.
> Or is the reason that OP actually felt good about his affairs while they lasted (I bet he did, otherwise he wouldn't have had more than one) - he doesn't wish to let his wife experience the feelgood when it is not supplied by him? (he suggested that himself ealier on).


I'm really at a loss here, are you saying he should be OK with his wife dishonoring what a marriage is supposed to be because he himself did so in the past? How does that work? Cheaters who are remorseful have such a tough time forgiving themselves. He is trying to save his wife the mental torment of accepting that she herself is a cheater by Divorcing because she wants to fck another man. How is this wrong or hypocritical?



cpacan said:


> I know I am outnumberet on this viewpoint, but that's just the way I feel. And yes, I think it's a fair assesment.


No, it still is not a fair assessment.



cpacan said:


> But I agree with everybody else, they should divorce, my opinion is just based on a different reasoning.


I finally agree with you, yes your opinion is based on flawed reasoning.


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## cpacan

Paladin said:


> Not sure how things are on the cheating side, as my fWS stepped out on me. The trick, my friend, is to remain faithful to your spouse throughout the entirety of your relationship, not to be the first one to screw up.


Basically I agree, no one should cheat. But being the first one to cheat, you can have your cake and deny your partner the taste of it at the same time - and still expect your partner to just suck it up? His wife chooses not to keep it a secret, therefore she has my sympathy. 



Paladin said:


> Call it whatever you want to call it. Call him a scumbag a-hole for destroying his marriage, but dont use his a-holsih behavior to justify more a-holish behavior.


I am not justifying it, just calling the opposite hypocritical.



Paladin said:


> Throughout this entire thread he has made attempts to own what he did 100% without justifying it with a 'but' not sure where you see him doing otherwise.


Ie. in post 112, and there are more similar posts. He is strictly focused on his wifes 50% of the marriage trouble and wants to adress this before handling his own affair and the aftermath. That's why I say he is not there completely. But I also said that I give him credit. I am not black or white here.



Paladin said:


> I'm really at a loss here, are you saying he should be OK with his wife dishonoring what a marriage is supposed to be because he himself did so in the past? How does that work? Cheaters who are remorseful have such a tough time forgiving themselves. He is trying to save his wife the mental torment of accepting that she herself is a cheater by Divorcing because she wants to fck another man. How is this wrong or hypocritical?


No, he said himself that the reason he denies her this sexual experience is jealousy and pride (alpha stuff) - this is not equal to your "save his wife the mental torment"
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/47563-cheaters-perspective-4-weeks-past-d-day-20.html#post857836

Hypocritical because you set one standard for another person that you cannot live by yourself.



Paladin said:


> No, it still is not a fair assessment.


I think it is. I gave him credit for his remorse and and ability to reflect on feelings and thoughts. I still do.



Paladin said:


> I finally agree with you, yes your opinion is based on flawed reasoning.


Like I said; I know well that I am outnumbered in my opinion here, but that doesn't make my reasoning more flawed than anyone elses.


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## Barnowl

I really didn't know my thread would stir up so much controversy. Here is a little update. My wife was offered a job that she really didn't think she was going to get. It is huge news for her, and something that I am really proud of her for even through all of the turmoil going on. I am taking her to dinner tonight. It will be bittersweet because we are going to celebrate the new job, but also discuss the terms of the divorce...should be a strange one.


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## Zanna

I don't know, Barnowl. I find it hard to believe she can can go from being the "angry that you threatened to date because she might" betrayed wife to being done so quickly. She's still in shock. She will most likely change her mind again, unless she's one of those people that can truly turn her love on and off like a faucet.

I don't like that you cheated either but you're trying and I think you really do want to change. 

And I hope you do, regardless of whether you D your wife or not.

Have a good dinner. It's not over yet. Try and have fun and plant a seed in her mind that it can be good again in the future. Trust me when I say she will notice if she has even a flicker of love left for you.

Being done is about indifference and she's not indifferent to you yet.

But yes, if she gets ugly, protect yourself and file for D.


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## MEM2020

Why do you wish to reconcile on any terms other than those you can be happy with?

We have a long list of stuff that is important to my W. It just is. I don't sit there and evaluation whether or not it SHOULD be important to her. I don't tell her that she is making things important - that really aren't important. I RECOGNIZE AND ACCEPT that they are important to her. And by proxy - because she is MY WIFE - they are important to me. 

I have a list also. I believe it is much shorter - but ultimately that doesn't matter so much. Sex is on my list. Affection is on my list. She loves the affection. Lately - honestly - she could live without the sex. But she doesn't even consider that. She knows it is important to me - so that MAKES it important to her. 

I will say this - and my W is a good person and believes in marriage for life. If I:
- Did not make an effort to prioritize things that are important to her AND
- I casually ignored her needs to the point where she was clearly unhappy with me, and she could TELL I was perfectly fine with her being unhappy with US
We would be divorced. 

Same is true in reverse. 

Sex - once every 6 weeks or less - would mean that:
- I am not a priority to her
- She is very comfortable causing me distress via deprivation

And you went along with this for 6 years because?????????




Barnowl said:


> Yeah this will be a big deal to me. I know re-writing history happens, but as someone who began keeping track of our sex life, I have a pretty good idea just how bad our sex life was... we had sex 8 times total last year. I say "once a month on average" but the reality is that we would go 2-3 months with no contact, not even foreplay, often. If we have had sex more than 50 times in our 6 year marriage, I would be shocked.
> 
> That is the marriage that I refuse to go back to. Should I have cheated? Absolutely not. I should have made a different choice. In the future I will, and if I could take it back, I would 100 time.


----------



## Barnowl

Dinner went pretty well. It started off rocky on some heavy conversation, but we got past that, and got onto having a pretty good time. It is so strange, because we joke with each other about the divorce, and seeing other people, and just make light of this terrible thing. I think we are doing it just so we can get through the night without balling. Went to her place and watched a movie, and she fell asleep in my lap. When I got up to leave and come home, I asked if she still wanted me to file for divorce, and in a very sincere voice she said that she thinks it is best. I think the betrayal was too much for her to process, and move past while still being with me. I feel hopeful in a lot of ways that our lives will come back together. I don't see us drifting completely apart either. We are too close, and share too much to just cut the chord completely. Perhaps I am being naive, but I see us having some semblance of a relationship for a long time. I am going to finish the divorce documents and show her this weekend, and get her advice on splitting the finances and furniture. We will work it out. I feel a sense of relief I think now that I know what direction we are moving. It isn't the direction I wanted to go, but there is peace in knowing that a direction has been chosen. Tomorrow is another day, and I will hopefully be in a good mental place and make it through ok.

Thank you all for lending support. It means a lot to me.


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## Barnowl

Just finished filling out the divorce stuff, and the reality of the situation hit me. This is the end. It is insane, and I never thought I would be at this place in my life with this woman. I thought we were the forevor couple...She wants to go over stuff tonight. She is upset, I am upset...this whole thing is the most difficult situation I have ever been in. I don't kwow what to do...there is nothing I can do. It is inertia. We are moving too fast to stop it now, and it scares the hell out of me.


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## anonymouskitty

Hang in there Barn, pm count of monte christo or mori or keko, they've been where you are right now, they'll help you sort through your emotions


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## loveisforever

If you focus on yourself, let your wife discover a new aspect of you , and a new aspect of her really caring about, the divorce process may reverse itself. You can not force it yourself though.


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## eman

Barnowl good luck buddy. *I truly do feel you pain.*


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## onthefence16

I am the wife of a man who had an EA and PA with the same woman, it lasted almost a year, PA early on.... I give your wife credit for leaving... Maybe she wanted to be free from it all animals and all. I thought about euthenizing mine and leaving. So I don't see how anyone can call you a liar without truly knowing your wife and why she left..... It is a very hard thing to know the man you love has placed his trust, and body in another woman's arms and heart..... It took my husband 10 months to come out of his fog and finally start trying....


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## Barnowl

This has been the strangest few days of my life. We both seem resolved that the divorce is what needs to happen, but we are both taking it really hard. We talk a lot on the phone. Not so much in person. She hasn't wanted to see me much. Today she was really angry at me. I completely understand, and I am just giving her space. This has been a lot to digest in two months, and the collapse of basically everything we knew has happened so fast that our heads are spinning. Tomorrow we are supposed to go to a movie together, but I have no idea if that will pan out or not...Monday could be the day to file. Strange, strange, strange....that is about all I can say to understand how I feel about what is going on right now.


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## happyman64

Barnowl,

Go to the movie. Enjoy it together.

Give her the divorce that she is asking for.

Keep apologizing and acknowledge her pain.

But most of all remember that now is the time to become a better man than you have in the past.

Your wife is giving you that opportunity.Will you take it and become that man for yourself?

HM64


----------



## morituri

No offense to you OP, but why are we so soft on a male cheaters but downright hard on female cheaters?


----------



## OhGeesh

I say just move on  just as in your affairs you compartmentalized them put them in a box to open when needed. Be cordial, nice, aplogetic, but own up (as you are) and keep the ball rolling. You are heading for divorce embrace it!! Detach, compartmentalize as you did before, focus on you, focus on your future, I'm sure this won't be easy for some it's not.

As far as your affairs you are free now to live the life your alter ego and way fairing mind wants. You only get one shot in life wallowing in the past isn't a good use of time.

Best of luck!!


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## Paladin

morituri said:


> No offense to you OP, but why are we so soft on a male cheaters but downright hard on female cheaters?


I dont think anyone was being overly soft on him. If we are to take him at his word, and obviously without seeing her side of things directly, we must take it all with a pinch of salt, he has done everything in his power to own what he did. His partner does not seem to be interested in R, but wants to have a revenge affair, which he did not want to encourage, or be a party to. This is all the aftermath of his dysfunctional, dirty, a-holish behavior, but he seems to have seen the light, and it's hard (for me anyway) to just keep tossing him under the bus and kicking him in the teeth. 

He pissed away his marriage, a loving partner, a good life, and much, much more than that. He is now fully aware of that fact, and I dont think rubbing his nose in his own sht is really going to accomplish much more at this point.


----------



## morituri

If he was a she, there would have been a flury of members who would have come down hard on her, moreso because the serial cheating. I hate coming on members of my gender, but why are they absent?


----------



## Paladin

morituri said:


> If he was a she, there would have been a flury of members who would have come down hard on her, moreso because the serial cheating. I hate coming on members of my gender, but why are they absent?


22 pages to this thread, with plenty of bashing directed his way. Also, you know damn well that there is a loud minority of members that exist on this forum who are borderline misogynistic.


----------



## happyman64

Paladin is right.

And right now the cheater is paying the ultimate price. The loss of his marriage and the woman he loves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## tiptoe1969

Finally read through the 23 pages on this thread. Your story seems to hit home to me. I am reacting very similarly to your wife. We have been separated(he got an apartment about 2 miles away) for nearly 5 weeks. I was very angry and hurt about the betrayal and several false reconciliations that had been going on for close to a year. I too feel my marriage is dead and actually filed for the divorce because I don't want that marriage anymore it burned to the ground and any hope would be something new.

I know deep in my heart I love this man even if he wronged me throughout the year with his lies and deceit. But I have decided that I need to let him prove and fight for what he truly wants if it is me and our kids. In order for me to do that I have to let him go.

I am not sure what it is but there are times I give into my emotions with my husband. I tell myself wait I can't open up too much because he needs to really feel the consequences of his actions and I can't give in now cuz we both need to change and heal. This probably sends mixed messages and confuses us both but I feel this is the process of healing. We never talk about reconciling either we have done that and know it won't work. Instead we talk about how both of us need to change to move past this trauma. I am starting to see small changes but it is way too soon.

I know this will take months to years to resolve itself. We both have tremendous emotions as you both do but I have realized that patience and faith will bring clarity for both of us. If we try to predict what the future holds we will be trapped forever and never change.


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## Acabado

If the movie things finnaly goes through don't ask her for OM. Ever.


----------



## tiptoe1969

I also wanted to add that what you are doing is exactly what I want from my husband. I am not a mindreader but I do actually feel he is coming out of the fog and feeling the same way you feel.

I really want to believe the words he tells me but because of all the lies and betrayal it is soo hard to trust what he is saying. The changes the actions are what I am looking for now. If I give in I know I will never be at peace. 

I also try to get my husband jealous with talks of other guys, friendships, etc. Why? Couple of reasons- I want him to feel the pain I endured and it is a message I want to send that I can move on and I really don't need you (guard I am putting up so I won't get hurt again). It is funny how our emotions control us and it seems like a game.

Don't give up on her. She is trying to heal and get past this emotional trauma. We all have different coping mechanisms. We might not all agree but we should try to understand.


----------



## MEM2020

Barn,
The more upset/agitated you seem when you are with her - the worse you make this situation. 

You seem unwilling to grasp the simplicity of this situation:
1. You allowed her to disrespect her VOWS for a long time
2. In turn you disrespected the marriage

If you can't stay calm and firm on that type situation, you will have a repeat of this in your next long term relationship. If it were me, I would fully own (1) and (2) above. This isn't hard. 

I LET you treat me like I was unimportant. That is on me. If I allowed a revenge affair (which is completely different than an affair driven by a repeatedly expressed marital need that is being ignored) I would just perpetuate the situation where I am allowing myself to be treated badly. 

Nothing to argue about. You should accept that she has no intention of treating you differently/better than she did. Actually - likely worse. I imagine that with the papers in front of her and you acting very calm, you are going to be very surprised by her reaction. 

Sadly this all hinges on your ability to MASK your emotions, a skill that you don't seem to value very highly. 




Barnowl said:


> This has been the strangest few days of my life. We both seem resolved that the divorce is what needs to happen, but we are both taking it really hard. We talk a lot on the phone. Not so much in person. She hasn't wanted to see me much. Today she was really angry at me. I completely understand, and I am just giving her space. This has been a lot to digest in two months, and the collapse of basically everything we knew has happened so fast that our heads are spinning. Tomorrow we are supposed to go to a movie together, but I have no idea if that will pan out or not...Monday could be the day to file. Strange, strange, strange....that is about all I can say to understand how I feel about what is going on right now.


----------



## Barnowl

MEM11363 said:


> Barn,
> The more upset/agitated you seem when you are with her - the worse you make this situation.
> 
> You seem unwilling to grasp the simplicity of this situation:
> 1. You allowed her to disrespect her VOWS for a long time
> 2. In turn you disrespected the marriage
> 
> If you can't stay calm and firm on that type situation, you will have a repeat of this in your next long term relationship. If it were me, I would fully own (1) and (2) above. This isn't hard.
> 
> I LET you treat me like I was unimportant. That is on me. If I allowed a revenge affair (which is completely different than an affair driven by a repeatedly expressed marital need that is being ignored) I would just perpetuate the situation where I am allowing myself to be treated badly.
> 
> Nothing to argue about. You should accept that she has no intention of treating you differently/better than she did. Actually - likely worse. I imagine that with the papers in front of her and you acting very calm, you are going to be very surprised by her reaction.
> 
> Sadly this all hinges on your ability to MASK your emotions, a skill that you don't seem to value very highly.


The situation could be boiled down to being that simple, and I am not good at masking my emotions at all. 

She has seen the papers. We have talked at length about it. Once I get my retirement information I will have everything I need to file them. Perhaps filing will be the final straw that changes her resolve...I don't really know. At this point though we both feel and understand that this is the best option, and we are acting on it. Nothing has changed in the past few days since the decision was really made. Now I am just going to need to decide if my personal reasons for divorce will be enough for me to justify it in the long run. I actually still hold onto a shred of hope that she and I will reconnect in the future and start a new life together. Maybe that is regret, or maybe that is wishful thinking...I can't decide.


----------



## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> The situation could be boiled down to being that simple, and I am not good at masking my emotions at all.
> 
> She has seen the papers. We have talked at length about it. Once I get my retirement information I will have everything I need to file them. Perhaps filing will be the final straw that changes her resolve...I don't really know. At this point though we both feel and understand that this is the best option, and we are acting on it. Nothing has changed in the past few days since the decision was really made. Now I am just going to need to decide if my personal reasons for divorce will be enough for me to justify it in the long run. I actually still hold onto a shred of hope that she and I will reconnect in the future and start a new life together. Maybe that is regret, or maybe that is wishful thinking...I can't decide.


I am glad you let her go, Barnowl. 

Not because of her revenge affair, but because I do think it's good that you set her free.


----------



## Barnowl

Sara8 said:


> I am glad you let her go, Barnowl.
> 
> Not because of her revenge affair, but because I do think it's good that you set her free.


The whole idea of the revenge affair too...I know I came in heavy handed...but I actually now believe that my wife's intentions are what she has told me. I don't believe what she is doing is a "revenge affair" I have said that so many times now that it became what I called it, but really I think she just needed someone to talk to, and be close to. I believe her when she says they haven't done anything, and I believe her when she says that she does not have intentions of sleeping with the guy. I honestly still wonder if he is gay, which is what I have thought about him for a long time...

Who knows. She does want to date. She does want to get experiences. And ultimately we are getting a divorce...as far as letting her go though? That is a lot tougher. We talked yesterday, we have already talked today...I can't let her go. We have such a high level of communication that it is really difficult to say that even a divorce between us will cause us to completely detach.

Perhaps I don't know how to detach?


----------



## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> The whole idea of the revenge affair too...I know I came in heavy handed...but I actually now believe that my wife's intentions are what she has told me. I don't believe what she is doing is a "revenge affair" I have said that so many times now that it became what I called it, but really I think she just needed someone to talk to, and be close to. I believe her when she says they haven't done anything, and I believe her when she says that she does not have intentions of sleeping with the guy. I honestly still wonder if he is gay, which is what I have thought about him for a long time...
> 
> Who knows. She does want to date. She does want to get experiences. And ultimately we are getting a divorce...as far as letting her go though? That is a lot tougher. We talked yesterday, we have already talked today...I can't let her go. We have such a high level of communication that it is really difficult to say that even a divorce between us will cause us to completely detach.
> 
> Perhaps I don't know how to detach?


Why do unloyal spouse always realize this after the fact?

I wish you the best of luck,


----------



## Zanna

Paladin said:


> I dont think anyone was being overly soft on him. If we are to take him at his word, and obviously without seeing her side of things directly, we must take it all with a pinch of salt, he has done everything in his power to own what he did. His partner does not seem to be interested in R, but wants to have a revenge affair, which he did not want to encourage, or be a party to. This is all the aftermath of his dysfunctional, dirty, a-holish behavior, but he seems to have seen the light, and it's hard (for me anyway) to just keep tossing him under the bus and kicking him in the teeth.
> 
> He pissed away his marriage, a loving partner, a good life, and much, much more than that. He is now fully aware of that fact, and I dont think rubbing his nose in his own sht is really going to accomplish much more at this point.


I agree. I think he owed his bad choices pretty early in the game. There were moments but he took the 2x4's without defensiveness and without romanticizing the affairs.

I think a lot of female cheaters come on the forum and blame their H's and don't back down for pages and pages so the negative responses to that comes across as bashing. Female cheaters also seem to portray OM as some Knight in Shining Armour and I think those of us who see through that high school crap, come down on that in particular. 

Barnowl has been pretty good about seeing an IC and trying to change his cheater's mindset. Not fond of what he did and I wouldn't date him if I was single  but I have to give him credit.

And if people can't change then what's the point? There has to be something to personal growth and all that...


----------



## eman

Zanna said:


> I agree. I think he owed his bad choices pretty early in the game. There were moments but he took the 2x4's without defensiveness and without romanticizing the affairs.
> 
> I think a lot of female cheaters come on the forum and blame their H's and don't back down for pages and pages so the negative responses to that comes across as bashing. Female cheaters also seem to portray OM as some Knight in Shining Armour and I think those of us who see through that high school crap, come down on that in particular.
> 
> Barnowl has been pretty good about seeing an IC and trying to change his cheater's mindset. Not fond of what he did and I wouldn't date him if I was single  but I have to give him credit.
> 
> *And if people can't change then what's the point? There has to be something to personal growth and all that...*


^^^Wow you just summed up what I've been wrestling over for weeks but couldn't put it into words


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## MEM2020

Barn,
Yet another boundary-less conversation in Owl-land. 

If her INTENTION was to have "experience" and not engage in revenge, her first move would have been to file, and then after filing she would have said: "We are done, the courts will take a while to process but the marriage is over. You are free to date others and need to know that I am not planning to wait until some judge signs our papers before I begin to date". 

You need to be able to mask AND control your emotions in a LTR unless you marry Mother Theresa's younger sister. 







Barnowl said:


> The whole idea of the revenge affair too...I know I came in heavy handed...but I actually now believe that my wife's intentions are what she has told me. I don't believe what she is doing is a "revenge affair" I have said that so many times now that it became what I called it, but really I think she just needed someone to talk to, and be close to. I believe her when she says they haven't done anything, and I believe her when she says that she does not have intentions of sleeping with the guy. I honestly still wonder if he is gay, which is what I have thought about him for a long time...
> 
> Who knows. She does want to date. She does want to get experiences. And ultimately we are getting a divorce...as far as letting her go though? That is a lot tougher. We talked yesterday, we have already talked today...I can't let her go. We have such a high level of communication that it is really difficult to say that even a divorce between us will cause us to completely detach.
> 
> Perhaps I don't know how to detach?


----------



## MEM2020

I disagree. 

If I walk in a dangerous part of the city at 3 AM and get mugged - it isn't my "fault" that it happened. However I would be a fool not to see my contribution to the event. If I keep doing it, likely it will re-occur. 

Barn was not able to remain in a sexless (less than 10 times a year) marriage and remain true to his vows. And yet he was willing to return to the same marriage - without any commitment of change from his W. 

He had a pattern. No reason to think that he could break it, if nothing changed on her end. So he took responsibility for behaving badly - even though his BIGGEST fault was not enforcing his boundaries and either demanding a real sex life or getting a divorce. And yet - the recon was going to be based on his "hope" that she would understand now, and treat him better. 





Zanna said:


> I agree. I think he owed his bad choices pretty early in the game. There were moments but he took the 2x4's without defensiveness and without romanticizing the affairs.
> 
> I think a lot of female cheaters come on the forum and blame their H's and don't back down for pages and pages so the negative responses to that comes across as bashing. Female cheaters also seem to portray OM as some Knight in Shining Armour and I think those of us who see through that high school crap, come down on that in particular.
> 
> Barnowl has been pretty good about seeing an IC and trying to change his cheater's mindset. Not fond of what he did and I wouldn't date him if I was single  but I have to give him credit.
> 
> And if people can't change then what's the point? There has to be something to personal growth and all that...


----------



## Barnowl

So I figure that I owe an update. The reality of the divorce being filed this week has fallen on my wife pretty hard. Her entire demeaner has changed. She won't stop texting me, she emails me a lot more, and she is telling me that I never fought for her. So after her telling me over and over and over for weeks that she wants a divorce, once I finally do it, I become the bad guy who never fights for her. I don't get it. I am not playing games. I just want honesty. If she doesn't want the divorce, then don't tell me you want it day in and day out. If you do want the divorce, then don't fall to pieces when it happens. Aaaahhh!!! I don't like anything about this. 

I still haven't filed, and now I told her that I am just going to leave it for her to do. I don't want a divorce, I never wanted a divorce...and I don't think she wants it either. 

This just makes me feel insane. All of it. Like I am losing my mind.


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## SadSamIAm

If you don't file for divorce, you are telling your wife that you are fine with a sexless marriage.

You need to show her that you are serious about this issue in your marriage. I say file and see if she changes. You can always stop the filing.


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## happyman64

Barnowl,

You guys need to have it out in one room calmly.

EMotions are flying high on both sides.

You do not want to live in a sexless marriage and your wife wants you to fight for her.

DUde, take her to bed tonight and show her what you expect in your relationship.

Ask her if she is up to the task and then watch her actions.

But you both have to realize that you can no longer hurt each other by being married. Either you both are in the marriage or you are both out of it.


And if you are both too emotional then you both back off, go to your respective homes and take a time-out!!!!

You guys really need some professional help.

HM64


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - I hate to say it, but I told you - a BS wants to feel like you are willing to fight for her. She is still crying out to you now, telling you - how much more does she have to do? Get your head out and see that she is still there! Fight for her! Some of the fight is going to be with her and yourself, but you need to show her (if you still want her) that she is worth anything and everything. She is devastated - it is hard to find the words and get your head on straight as a BS as to what to do next. You can't read her mind, but listen to the other BS's that are offering you advice and telling you what she is probably thinking. Seriously - watch Fireproof together. And I agree with Happyman - you two need to "hook-up". You need to reconnect in the way that you have not for a long time. Tell her that you wanted to fight for her, but you were scared that you were going to push her away. Tell her you are so sorry and all you can think about is holding her, comforting her and trying to ease the pain that you caused. Tell her you love her so much and you just wanted to give her what you thought she needed for space. Tell her that every day away from her has been pure hell for you and you don't want to be away from her one more day and you are willing to do any counseling, answer any questions, take any anger she has to release, as long as she can try to give you another chance to prove how much you really do love her and have loved her all of these years and that you want to make your marriage better and stronger than before. Again, just my 2 cents, but I hear your wife through your posts loud and clear. She still loves you. You do have a chance if you are willing to put your ego and pride down and let her heal in your presence. Time to man up.


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## Sara8

Barnowl said:


> So I figure that I owe an update. The reality of the divorce being filed this week has fallen on my wife pretty hard. Her entire demeaner has changed. She won't stop texting me, she emails me a lot more, and she is telling me that I never fought for her. So after her telling me over and over and over for weeks that she wants a divorce, once I finally do it, I become the bad guy who never fights for her. I don't get it. I am not playing games. I just want honesty. If she doesn't want the divorce, then don't tell me you want it day in and day out. If you do want the divorce, then don't fall to pieces when it happens. Aaaahhh!!! I don't like anything about this.
> 
> I still haven't filed, and now I told her that I am just going to leave it for her to do. I don't want a divorce, I never wanted a divorce...and I don't think she wants it either.
> 
> This just makes me feel insane. All of it. Like I am losing my mind.


Barn:

If you truly did not want a divorce why threaten to file. 

It feels like you are playing a game....brinksmanship??????

She did want you to fight for her, by threatening divorce you did not fight for her, you gave up. 

I am not sure entirely what was going on between you two. I only know what you told me. 

Still, bashing her over the head with the divorce is only going to breed resentment later on. 

Never threaten a divorce. Only do it when you are so fed up that there is no turning back. 

You both need to talk about these games you are both playing.


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## Tall Average Guy

Barnowl said:


> So I figure that I owe an update. The reality of the divorce being filed this week has fallen on my wife pretty hard. Her entire demeaner has changed. She won't stop texting me, she emails me a lot more, and she is telling me that I never fought for her. So after her telling me over and over and over for weeks that she wants a divorce, once I finally do it, I become the bad guy who never fights for her. I don't get it. I am not playing games. I just want honesty. If she doesn't want the divorce, then don't tell me you want it day in and day out. If you do want the divorce, then don't fall to pieces when it happens. Aaaahhh!!! I don't like anything about this.
> 
> I still haven't filed, and now I told her that I am just going to leave it for her to do. I don't want a divorce, I never wanted a divorce...and I don't think she wants it either.
> 
> This just makes me feel insane. All of it. Like I am losing my mind.


She probably is not sure what she wants. You are the bad guy because you did cheat, so you filing divorce reinforces that. A part of her did want you to pursue her and fight for her. That would show that you love her. It would also show that her actions were hurting you. It is human nature to want to hurt those that hurt us.

She might also be having second thoughts. Even if fleeting, an event of this magnitude is almost certain to shake things up for her, even if she believes it is the right thing to do.

You need to keep working on fixing you. You can't forget that your marriage is where it is because of you and your choices. Develop into the man that you want to be and stay strong. That strength may be what she needs most from you.


----------



## Acabado

> If you truly did not want a divorce why threaten to file.


He didn't treaten sh!t. He finnaly grew a spine. Her wife was telling him there was no hope, she wanted out. She didn't stop with the talk but was walking the walk, she showed it with her actions: she went almost NC and was openly dating a new man and telling him to suck it up, she was done.
After too much beggin he told her he reached the end, was just sick of not respecting himself, he was not going to become a willing cuckold after being a neglected hubnad and later a POS cheater. Enough of toxic thought process and poor personal boundaires. He wanted to grow WITH her. Then asked her again wheter she wanted to give him one last shot. She rejected him, she accepted the divorce and seemed happy to do so. Whith thei nfo we have it seems he owned his stuff, he toke the right steps, he sough help, he asked her to give the marriage a chance to no avail. She didn't think for a minute about her contribution to the poor state of the marriage and jumped into another mans arms. It still doesn't seem taking any responsability for her own poor choices.
I only see one side growing up from this.
He never wanted the divorce, he reached his limit. He wans't happy with this end she in the other had seemed mostly happy with this. I don't believe she is second guessing it either. The reality of divorce is starting to hit hard both of them. That's all.


----------



## Barnowl

Acabado said:


> The reality of divorce is starting to hit hard both of them. That's all.


This feels like the crux of it. 

Oh, and just as an FYI, I did watch "Fireproof" with my wife. I then asked her if she would give me 40 days, and she said no. I kind of reached my limit of hearing her say she wanted a divorce. I never threatened it, I simply complied.


----------



## keko

happyman64 said:


> DUde, take her to bed tonight and show her what you expect in your relationship.


:iagree:


----------



## Barnowl

keko said:


> :iagree:


There is no way in bloody hell that she would allow me to take her to bed. The hysterical bonding has stopped. She tells me that she doesn't feel emotionally close to me right now, and that means that there is no physical attachment for her. There is no way on this earth that anything other :sleeping: will be happening in a bed in my future.

Also, if I were to suggest it or try it, it would simply re-enforce the fact that she thinks I was nice to her and supportive of her in the first few weeks just so I can get in her pants. Our physical relationship is screwed up on a level not known by many I would imagine. There is a LOT of rebuilding in multiple areas that need to happen before that is coming back. If it ever comes back...


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - I will not say another word about it after this - but in the movie, he felt like giving up too - his wife took off her ring, she blew him off, she said she had to turn in her divorce papers, she said that she did not believe he had any good intentions....but he did not give up. He did the 40 days on his own regardless of the outcome. He didn't want to, and saw it hard for the first few weeks, but soon he changed his attitude and saw how he might have pushed his wife away. Fortunately (if you can call say that) , his only infidelity was porn. Your wife has much more to recover from, along with the abandonment (which you do to your spouse the moment you cheat). Can you see your wife in the role of the wife in the movie at all? No, it is not a marriage fixer, but I think you can learn a lot from it. She still loves you. She is still waiting for you to fight. You want her to give in and say "let's just fix it - let's get past everything", but it does not happen like that. You still don't get it yet. You are still thinking about how hard it is for you.


----------



## Paladin

I've never seen fireproof, just read the synopsis of the film, if I got it straight, it's a movie about a firefighter trying to save his marriage by sticking with his wife and making god the focal point of their relationship for 40 days. You mention that you asked her if she would give you 40 days, and she turned you down. Maybe the meaning of the film was lost on her, you need to directly ask her 

"You said I never fought for you, every time I tried, it seemed to push you away. You seem to be saying you don't want a divorce, I'm confused by this because this entire time you've been telling me a divorce is what you wanted. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make our relationship work, but it takes effort from both of us. I'm willing to do the heavy lifting, but I need to know that there is at least a chance for things to work between us. I'm willing to put the D on hold, but I need to know that you will be making an effort toward the marriage. I would like you to put your relationship with the OM on hold while we figure out if we can salvage our life together. I would also like a commitment from you to go to couples counseling once or twice per week until we figure out if we are staying together or splitting up."

Simple, straight, and to the point I think. The mixed messages about the divorce are normal BTW, she may feel differently day to day.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Fireproof is religious based, but it is actually good viewing for anyone regardless of religious views. The religious aspect of course helps, but it is not necessary to get something helpful out of it.


----------



## cpacan

Barnowl said:


> There is no way in bloody hell that she would allow me to take her to bed. The hysterical bonding has stopped. She tells me that she doesn't feel emotionally close to me right now, and that means that there is no physical attachment for her. There is no way on this earth that anything other :sleeping: will be happening in a bed in my future.
> 
> Also, if I were to suggest it or try it, it would simply re-enforce the fact that she thinks I was nice to her and supportive of her in the first few weeks just so I can get in her pants. Our physical relationship is screwed up on a level not known by many I would imagine. There is a LOT of rebuilding in multiple areas that need to happen before that is coming back. If it ever comes back...


And there is no way in blood h... you are gonna win her back as long as you feel sorry for yourself and see yourself as the victim here. 

Sorry to say this, but your attitude hasn't changed, so why would she change? Change your self the way you wanna see your wife change. That'll do if anything.


----------



## Paladin

cpacan said:


> And there is no way in blood h... you are gonna win her back as long as you feel sorry for yourself and see yourself as the victim here.
> 
> Sorry to say this, but your attitude hasn't changed, so why would she change? Change your self the way you wanna see your wife change. That'll do if anything.


Are we reading the same posts? How is he feeling sorry for himself? How has his attitude not changed? This notion is so strange to me, what is he supposed to do in your eyes to signal that he is changing, growing, and working on himself? I keep getting the feeling that no matter what he does, he will remain wrong in your eyes. 

He is changing the way he wants to see his wife change, he is unwilling to be her husband while she is trying to have a relationship with another man. He is signaling to her that a marriage should be respected, regardless of how badly it was screwed up in the past. She has repeatedly told him she wants to divorce and be with this other man, short of allowing it to happen, what are his options?


----------



## Barnowl

^^^I have to agree with you cpacan. My attitude has done nothing but get worse. I don't even know right now what I want. Everything is up and down, and right now is a major down. I need to just decide what I want and go headlong into a single direction....I just need to figure out what direction that is.


----------



## eman

Barnowl said:


> ^^^I have to agree with you cpacan. My attitude has done nothing but get worse. I don't even know right now what I want. Everything is up and down, and right now is a major down. I need to just decide what I want and go headlong into a single direction....I just need to figure out what direction that is.


Has the one-on-one counseling helped in this regard?


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## tiptoe1969

I was the one to file the divorce after the year long struggle with his affair. I love my husband but I can't be treated without respect and no consequences on his part for the affair. I will never be at peace if we reconciled because things don't change overnight. We tried and it didn't work. 

I have learned to let go and if he fights for us it will be something on his own. I cannot make him do it because then I don't know if it is for real or temporary. I want a permanent change. I too really don't want a divorce and I am petrified once it becomes final. But I also want to know that he will never stray and he will come back to me for the right reasons. The only way I will know his intentions are real are changes in him which will take months or years. I too need to make the changes in my life. We both need space to work on ourselves for our kids. I do try to talk to him once and awhile but it hurts because of hope for the future(and expectations). 

It is very hard to be strong with your emotions but I know rationally this is the only way. Work on yourself and those changes are the actions which will help heal your wife. Don't expect things from her at this time. She is still healing and pride sometimes gets in the way of true emotions.

Let go, work on yourself. Your wife will also need to do the same thing. Once you both have changed you never know what the future will bring. Don't force things to happen just let it be.


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## MEM2020

Barn,
The terrible predictability of it all. Losing her plan B - when she was hoping he would stick around while she tried to upgrade. 

Choosing to sit around and wait for her to decide - that will impress her. Not.

It goes like this: You tell her nicely that she either commits to an R, which means all other men are out of the picture, or you ARE going to file. 





Barnowl said:


> So I figure that I owe an update. The reality of the divorce being filed this week has fallen on my wife pretty hard. Her entire demeaner has changed. She won't stop texting me, she emails me a lot more, and she is telling me that I never fought for her. So after her telling me over and over and over for weeks that she wants a divorce, once I finally do it, I become the bad guy who never fights for her. I don't get it. I am not playing games. I just want honesty. If she doesn't want the divorce, then don't tell me you want it day in and day out. If you do want the divorce, then don't fall to pieces when it happens. Aaaahhh!!! I don't like anything about this.
> 
> I still haven't filed, and now I told her that I am just going to leave it for her to do. I don't want a divorce, I never wanted a divorce...and I don't think she wants it either.
> 
> This just makes me feel insane. All of it. Like I am losing my mind.


----------



## Zanna

Sigh. D-day was less than two months ago.

You have had more than one affair.

Yes, your wife is all over the place but I did say a couple pages back that I think she's not done yet and she's still reeling from pain and confusion.

Okay, she's not in the clearest state of mind but I know she's not the first BS to go off the deep end. I read about one guy that ended up in a mental hospital. Another who tried to shoot himself. Your wife is in a lot of pain. Is she thinking clearly? No.

She's most likely threatening to date and threatening divorce because she's hurt! Until she's actually having an RA, then give her a break already. Less than two months from D-day!

People tell everyone here not to rush into R. Make the cheater sweat, make them do the heavy lifting. Your wife is not a doormat and good for her for at least having some self-respect. Again, don't agree with an RA but until you have proof...

What do most women want after their H's A is revealed? They want him to fight for her. To beg for the marriage. For him to do the heavy lifting.

But less than two months later, people are telling you to D her because she's not responding right away to your request to R?! If she were the BS on the board, I wonder how different the advice would be?

Yeah, she's making you pay. Yes, she's being difficult but I for one, respect her for not jumping into R and offering up her forgiveness.

Give the poor woman a break already. She just had her world blown apart.

And yes, the whole sexless M thing. My H was in a sexless M too but he of course forgot the part where he kept quitting counseling, was angry and disrespectful and certainly not the perfect H. Gee, wonder why I lost my respect and attraction for him? Point is, we don't know her side of the story. 

Barnowl, I think you're doing great with the counseling and self-reflection but I still think your wife wants you to pursue. She wants to know that she's the one for you. You can work on the sex issue once you get her back and she's feeling safe. You need to be patient.

And then if she still doesn't meet your sexual needs by all means file.

But until then, try looking at this from her point of view.

And again, not condoning an RA but still not convinced she's going to actually go through with it yet...


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## cpacan

Thank you Zanna, I was beginning to think I was the only one around here who try to look at the situation with Mrs. Barnowls perspective. I too wonder which advice people would have given her if it was her side of the story that we had witnessed.

"I'll stop my cheating, long term and multiple affairs IF you give me some more sex..." - WTF?

If my wife had come to me with that attitude 2 months past DD, I would have filed for divorce faster than you can say "f***".

I say D, not because of Barnowls wife's behaviour, but because of the underlying selfishness on Barnowls side which makes him think he is entitled/allowed to make any demands before owning up to the extended betrayal of his wife. 

If he is not able to just try to understand her point of view and her feelings as well, then I think she deserves to be set free so she can pursue a different life and life partner as well.

Paladin: No, I don't think we have read different threads and posts, but we definitely seem to have experienced the life as a BS very differently.


----------



## Paladin

cpacan said:


> "I'll stop my cheating, long term and multiple affairs IF you give me some more sex..." - WTF?


This is exactly what I'm talking about. Where in the 23 pages of this thread did the OP say this?



cpacan said:


> If my wife had come to me with that attitude 2 months past DD, I would have filed for divorce faster than you can say "f***".


Again, I'm positively stumped as to how you arrive at this statement. 



cpacan said:


> I say D, not because of Barnowls wife's behaviour, but because of the underlying selfishness on Barnowls side which makes him think he is entitled/allowed to make any demands before owning up to the extended betrayal of his wife.


He took ownership of the affairs, he is getting help through IC to understand why he chose to act like a selfish a-hole and destroy his wifes world and piss away his marriage. He repeatedly attempted to accommodate her post Dday. Helping her with the apartment, communicating, being there for her, supporting and encouraging her about her new job, not being defensive, and finally drafting up the D papers so she could go be with the OM. He is absolutely entitled to protect the marriage from further damage, in fact it is his responsibility at the moment. 



cpacan said:


> If he is not able to just try to understand her point of view and her feelings as well, then I think she deserves to be set free so she can pursue a different life and life partner as well.


This is one more area that I disagree with you on. I think he _*has*_ been making a concerted effort to understand where his wife is emotionally and mentally. Understanding that he hurt her badly, that he betrayed her, and that he acted selfishly and inappropriately, does not mean that he has to be ok with her having a relationship with another man. As I've said to you over and over again, two wrongs dont make a right, and allowing her to dishonor the marriage, no matter how badly the marriage is damaged at the moment, is the wrong thing to do. I also dislike the point of view that his wifes stated intentions about having a relationship with the OM should be chalked up to her being "emotional" two months after Dday. That fundamentally negates her agency as a person, and makes her out to be some type of child. She should be taken at her word, since she has given no reason for him to doubt her. 



cpacan said:


> Paladin: No, I don't think we have read different threads and posts, but we definitely seem to have experienced the life as a BS very differently.


Yes, everyone has unique life experiences. That being said, the pain and devastation of being a BS is universal. No matter how hurt I was, I never used my fWS affair as a justification to have my own. In fact, I wanted quite the opposite. I wanted my fWS to put everything on hold, while we figured out if there was a chance to salvage our lives together. It took so much work and attention to sort out the mess, I cant possibly imagine having to maintain another relationship at the same time.


----------



## Paladin

Zanna said:


> She's most likely threatening to date and threatening divorce because she's hurt! Until she's actually having an RA, then give her a break already. Less than two months from D-day!
> 
> People tell everyone here not to rush into R. Make the cheater sweat, make them do the heavy lifting. Your wife is not a doormat and good for her for at least having some self-respect. Again, don't agree with an RA but until you have proof...


Threatening to have an affair with another man is far from having self respect. What reason has his wife given him to doubt her word? She is an adult, capable of making adult decisions, good ones and bad ones alike. She told him in no uncertain terms that they are done, and she wants to be with the OM, I think he would be disrespecting her further if he chalked those statements up to her being "emotional."



Zanna said:


> What do most women want after their H's A is revealed? They want him to fight for her. To beg for the marriage. For him to do the heavy lifting.
> 
> But less than two months later, people are telling you to D her because she's not responding right away to your request to R?! If she were the BS on the board, I wonder how different the advice would be?


People are advising him to file for D because that is what his wife told him she wants. They are not high school kids playing drama games. This is real life and they are adults. She is certainly entitled to do whatever she wants with herself, but he doesnt have to sit by while she disrespects what a marriage is supposed to be. Yes he cheated, he screwed up bad, damaged the marriage badly, that still does not justify his wife having a relationship with another man until the D is final. My advice would not be different in the least. If she came on as the BS and said she wanted to see other men, I would tell her to file for D so she wouldnt be sinking to the level of the DS.



Zanna said:


> And again, not condoning an RA but still not convinced she's going to actually go through with it yet...


Again, we have no reason to doubt her word or her intentions. He doesnt need to catch her in the act to file, he can do it based on her wishes, or his own for that matter.


----------



## cpacan

Paladin said:


> This is exactly what I'm talking about. Where in the 23 pages of this thread did the OP say this?


We probably won't agree on this. I have defended my opinion earlier on and I have given OP credits for showing guild and reflection as well.

I have outlined the "buts..." in an earlier post. Several other posters suggests that he should "take her to bed and show her what you ecpect from a marriage and ask her if she is up to the task" - post# 348,349 and 356.

OP has stated himself that he brougt the lack of sex on the table before she would even be able to hope for a marriage without infidelity.



Paladin said:


> He took ownership of the affairs, he is getting help through IC to understand why he chose to act like a selfish a-hole and destroy his wifes world and piss away his marriage. He repeatedly attempted to accommodate her post Dday. Helping her with the apartment, communicating, being there for her, supporting and encouraging her about her new job, not being defensive, and finally drafting up the D papers so she could go be with the OM. He is absolutely entitled to protect the marriage from further damage, in fact it is his responsibility at the moment.


Partly agree on this one, and I have never said that he didn't make an effort.



Paladin said:


> This is one more area that I disagree with you on. I think he _*has*_ been making a concerted effort to understand where his wife is emotionally and mentally. Understanding that he hurt her badly, that he betrayed her, and that he acted selfishly and inappropriately, does not mean that he has to be ok with her having a relationship with another man. As I've said to you over and over again, two wrongs dont make a right, and allowing her to dishonor the marriage, no matter how badly the marriage is damaged at the moment, is the wrong thing to do. I also dislike the point of view that his wifes stated intentions about having a relationship with the OM should be chalked up to her being "emotional" two months after Dday. That fundamentally negates her agency as a person, and makes her out to be some type of child. She should be taken at her word, since she has given no reason for him to doubt her.


Well, maybe I was a bit harsh on this one. He does try. But he ruins it when he makes demands of her if he is to "take her back". She is the one in position to make demands if any one is.



Paladin said:


> Yes, everyone has unique life experiences. That being said, the pain and devastation of being a BS is universal. No matter how hurt I was, I never used my fWS affair as a justification to have my own. In fact, I wanted quite the opposite. I wanted my fWS to put everything on hold, while we figured out if there was a chance to salvage our lives together. It took so much work and attention to sort out the mess, I cant possibly imagine having to maintain another relationship at the same time.


Good for you that your self esteem was high enough to stand the pressure from being cheated on. Maybe Mrs. Barnowls self-esteem isn't - mine certainly was not at the time. Maybe that's why I can understand her where she is at the moment.

And making sexual claims on a BS deeply hurt by multiple affairs is definitely not going to help.


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## LookingForTheSun

I think what is being missed is that she told him in so many words that she wanted him to fight for her. Having a RA is not a good way to get over your own spouse's affair(s), but it is an understandable state of mind that a BS would be put in. We give so much credit to the "fog"....how about the PTS that a BS goes through? How about the ability to barely function, remember even the simplest daily routines, the numb and hollow emptyness that hits you like a ton of bricks? How about the gut wrenching pain, want to run away from everything feeling? All of that is more real than any fog that a WS is in. A BS has no warning, no choice. 

In the end, it is up to Barnowl. I feel that he is very remorseful, and as always, I am pulling for him. However, even though he is working on fixing himself, he wants his wife to work/decide/recover at his pace because he is tired of it and it is wearing on him. 

It is not high school, and games should not be played, but speaking from my own experience, you have no faith or trust in your WS, so even though you love them, you hate them for what they did. Even though you want to end the pain and believe that it will all be OK from now on, you still only allow yourself to think of a little bit of the betrayal at a time because if you think of everything all at once, you may lose it. So you digest just a little bit here and there, and each little bit feels like a ton of bricks that just keeps dropping on you. If you are lucky enough to have someone to talk to, you cling to them. They become your life support, because the one person in your life that was supposed to protect you from any danger has just hurt you worse than anything ever could have. How can you ever trust them again? You want to, and so the "I want you, I don't want you" begins. 

Mrs. Barnowl is in pain. She loves him and she hates him. He just has to decide if he loves her enough to stick it out. It is his fault and his fault alone why she is going through this. It may not end up the way he wants, but if he loves her and respects her, he owes it to her to try.

Barnowl - if you want this woman, fight for her. Don't file for divorce. It is always an option if things don't work out. For now, tell her you just can't.


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## Barnowl

I really appreciate the informative posts, the perspective, and the commentary. Thank you all!

Update - Ok, so I HAVE NOT filed for divorce yet. My wife told me she would take the papers I have prepared and file for herself, but again, it hasn't happened yet. Here is my take on the situation...

My wife WANTS me to fight for her. I can feel it, she has told me to fight for her, and I know it is what she wants because when I am all in emotionally she responds amazingly well. I need to keep up the fight because it is what I truly want. She has felt "second best" to my selfish behaviors for a long time, and I have a lot of ground to make up to put her on a pedestal and show her that she is my number one effort in life.

She may or may not be in some level of an EA with the other man, but it is not a PA, and it is most certainly not a revenge affair. I really believe that they are friends, and I have no reason not to believe her because she has been honest. I don't want to go into a lot of details, but religious differences, personal differences, and other things lead me to believe that their relationship won't progress beyond what has happened, and if it does, then I will cross that bridge when I get there.

I am going to wait her out and see what happens. She isn't actively trying to date other people. She says she wants to, but who knows if she will go through with it. I am going to keep fighting for her, and showing her that I can be the man she wants and needs in her life. I have betrayed her immensely, and it is only fair that her emotions are running high,a nd she may be saying things that she doesn't actually mean or intend to act on. I have received a lot of good advice here, and I will continue to come here for advice. 

I told myself in the beginning to wait at least three months before making any final decisions such as divorce. I have one month left, nearly exactly. I owe that to her to show her who I am, what I can be, and what changes in my behavior will come about from my IC. Getting to the bottom of my own selfih behavior is going to not only improve my potential relationship with her, but all relationships in the future. I have to keep fighting for her though. I want her in my life, and I know we can be amazing together. I will be actively showing her what I can be and who I am for the next 30 days or more before I file any papers...I may slip between now and then and have a bad day, or one that makes me want to throw in the towel, but I honestly feel like I owe it to her and to us to keep working on things, and see where they fall.

Thanks everyone.


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## Hope1964

If you get to 3 months and still don't have clarity, you don't need to make a decision then either, you know.


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## Barnowl

The three months is a benchmark I need to hit for myself. I told myself three months, and then I was ready to bail on that decision early. That is a personality flaw of mine, and one I intend on overcoming. Stick-to-it-iveness is something that I need to really work on.

If I am not ready to make the decision at three months. I will have no problem giving it more time. But for right now, three months is my benchmark date.


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - HOORAY! I believe you are only now fully "out of the fog". Because of this, since you like to use timeframes to do things by, I suggest that you start your 3 months beginning today, since today is truly the first day you realize what you must do and set aside all of your selfishness and self pity. Do it right or not at all! There is hope for you and YOUR WIFE


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## happyman64

Bar owl

Do not put your wife on a pedestal. Treat her the way a loyal spouse deserves to be treated. 100% percent love, trust and honesty is what she deserves. That is what she has asked you for.

And do not fight for her because that is what she asked for. Do it because that is what you want and she deserves.

No matter what happens to your marriage if you do it for you, then you will be the man you should have been all along.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado

Welll if your wife is not revenge cheating there's no reason, in my book, the let her go.
Fight like a mad man for her. Susprise her. Let her thinking who this man is!! Ignore every time she push you away. Be respectful if she ask for space but reagrupo and keep the fight after that.

Keep working in yourself. It will pay anyway.


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## Barnowl

I am keeping up the fight. Her guard is up, and I don't think she expects too much which is understandable. I told her I will not bring up divorce again for at least my new three month time table. I told her she can file if she feels the need to, and I won't be combative, but I am not going to file for divorce. I also put my wedding ring on. She questioned my motives, and I told her it was to be a reminder to me of the fight I am pursuing, and that it is a constant reminder of what I have to lose if I don't fight hard enough for her. She hasn't filed, but she says she most likely will. I can't control her actions, and I don't plan to try. I am going to keep showing her who I am, who I can be through my positive actions, and hope that I will be or become a man that she respects and wants to spend her life with. Here is to hope!


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## Barnowl

Well it has been 5 days of my new resolve and committment to my marriage. What a rollercoaster the past 5 days has been. We have had some of the best days possible,but also one of the worst fights that we have ever had on Sunday night...but overall, we were making amazing progress with eachother, and had shared a few really great nights.

When my wife started texting the OM a lot, I was snooping in her phone. I never found anything, but it always pissed her off that I was the one who had betrayed her, and that I was now checking up on her. Let me re-iterate, that I have never found anything...well about two weeks ago she locked her phone. She told me that she would remove the lock when I wasn't so compulsive and I could control myself from having to frantically search through it at any chance. I think I am projecting a lot of my own insecurtities and behavior onto her. Now that I realize how easy it is to fall into an EA, I worry about that happening.

Well last night I guessed her password after a few attempts, and she woke up to me snooping in her phone. This of course threw our entire progress over the past few days. I didn't finad anything either, so now I just feel sheepish, and stupid for looking at it.

My wife has never given me a reason to not believe what she tells me. She is honorable, and trustworthy, and I believe the lock on her phone is simply there as a control over my OCD. It works too. I hadn't really even thought about her phone, but when she was sitting there asleep, I went for it. Not even sure why, but I did. 

At any rate, we now have this little bump to get over and get back on things moving forward normally. We are going on a mini-vacation this weekend as a test to see if a summer vacation between us will work. If we can make it alone for three days in a hotel, then we stand a chance at making it on our annual summer trip tot he Pacific Northwest where I asked her to marry me.

I am so focused on her, and I know exactly what I want. I want "us". I know it is going to take a lot of work, but I am trying...with the exception of last night I guess. 

I have decided that the next time I am feeling extremely anxious about the OM and her phone that I am just going to ask her if she will show me her phone. That would have been the better route. No more snooping behind her back, just ask for open honesty from her. She has nothing to hide (at least that I have ever found) so I can't see her denying me, but we will see.

I have been completely open with her. She has access to everything of mine including my work email. She is worried that I have started another fake email account, but I haven't, and I don't plan to. I want to show her that I can be honorable and trustworthy again. I want it so badly that I can taste it, but I keep sabbotaging myself.

I just need to keep moving forward. Keep trusting her, keep showing her love, and ultimately just keep being hopeful. She wants me in her life, I know that for a fact. I think a true reconciliation is possible with her. She has been amazing through this entire thing, and that makes me even more sad about having done this to her and to us. She is everything I have ever wanted...why didn't I see that before I made the mistakes I have made?


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## Zanna

Barnowl, I'm glad things are going well for you and your wife. I had a feeling she just needed more time to consider R. Keep in mind you are both still on the infidelity rollercoaster and there will be dips.

I do have to say that your 3 month time limit is concerning. You had an EA for 3 years and two PA's so therefore I think 3 months is very unrealistic and not fair to your wife.

Good luck.


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## LookingForTheSun

That is so great to hear! Keep it up! And make sure you tell her how awesome this time spent with her is making you feel....and stop sabotaging! You are right - you know all the tricks of cheating, so you are now paranoid of what she COULD (not will) do. Give her some blind faith like she did you and let her prove herself to you - she sounds like a strong, great woman that you are sure as heck lucky to have. Don't blow it!


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## eman

LookingForTheSun said:


> That is so great to hear! Keep it up! And make sure you tell her how awesome this time spent with her is making you feel....and stop sabotaging! You are right - you know all the tricks of cheating, so you are now paranoid of what she COULD (not will) do. Give her some blind faith like she did you and let her prove herself to you - *she sounds like a strong, great woman that you are sure as heck lucky to have*. Don't blow it!


I agree. Barn thank her sincerely at different quiet moments for giving you a chance to try and reconcile (I'm sure you have prob done this already...keep it up).


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## Acabado

Don't snoop, don't talk about potential OM at all, don't talk about her GF who encourage her to divorce you. 
What did you do to make her fall years ago?


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## Barnowl

We had a good session at counseling last night. First time in three weeks that she has come with me, and it went well enough that she was willing to schedule another appointment next week which made me happy. We had dinner afterwards, and then we parted ways and slept at our own places. It was a nice night. I woke up feeling really good, and she seems like she is having a good day as well. We met at our local coffee shop this morning to get coffee before work, and things seemed pretty smooth. We are both looking forward to this weekend's mini vacation for my birthday. I really want it to go well. I really need to not sabotage myself. 



Acabado said:


> Don't snoop, don't talk about potential OM at all, don't talk about her GF who encourage her to divorce you.
> What did you do to make her fall years ago?


I know, I know, I know. My counselor said the same thing to me about those issues. He actually came down on me pretty hard saying that I need to work as hard to fix things, as I used to work to hide things. He is good about calling me on my bullsh*t, and I appreciate that. I think that is what led to a good counseling session because my wife didn't feel attacked at all, and she agreed with what he was saying about me and my behavior. I still have a lot to work on. I have some OCD issues and other things that I am really trying to get under control.

What did I do years ago...well, we got together in highschool, so I guess all I really did was be nice to her and be good looking, lol. We were truly the highschool sweetheart story, so it is hard to look back to when I was 17 and know how to act now to get her back. We are both so different. I can tell you a few things about her...she loves to be loved. She loves to be treated well. She loves to be complimented (even though she plays them off), and I know how to make her smile. In fact, laughter is probably my biggest advntage. If I can get that girl laugh then I am in with her. 

Cross your collective TAM fingers for me that this weekend goes well. Thanks everyone.


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## LookingForTheSun

Fingers and eyes crossed for you both 

"work as hard to fix things, as I used to work to hide things" - I am going to use that one on my husband.


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## Barnowl

LookingForTheSun said:


> Fingers and eyes crossed for you both
> 
> "work as hard to fix things, as I used to work to hide things" - I am going to use that one on my husband.


Yeah I thought was a helpful way of looking at things. He is right too. Leading a double life isn't easy, and it takes work. If I would have put that energy into my marriage, I would never have been here. Hindsight is 2020, so it doesn't help me then, but it can at least inform my actions moving forward.


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## anonymouskitty

I'm glad you're trying your hardest Barn, people can change sometimes they just need a swift kick up their asses to do so.
Even if this does not end the way you want it to, realize that you've tried your hardest, thats not something I can say for most WSs. Fingers crossed mate


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## happyman64

BO

Then be on your best behavior, knock off the OCD behavior and make her laugh her ass off with you.

You have gotten further than I gave you credit for you.

Your wife obviously still loves you. So you better return it 300x over.......

HM64
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Barnowl

happyman64 said:


> BO
> 
> Then be on your best behavior, knock off the OCD behavior and make her laugh her ass off with you.
> 
> *You have gotten further than I gave you credit for you.
> 
> Your wife obviously still loves you. So you better return it 300x over.......*
> HM64
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I honestly cannot take any credit. All credit goes to my wife for being willing to work with me through this. She is the amazing one. I am just making my best attempt to pick up the pieces.

I was so good last night, haha. I didn't ask about OM, I didn't make any jokes (which usually jut come off as rude comments) and we had a great night.

I am finding some new comedians for the ipod today to make the drive light for this weekend. It should be good. We are both in up beat moods about it, and looking forward to it. 

Thank you all for your support. This has moved along better than I could have imagined, even with the bumps in the road. Still a lot of work to do yet though. Need to stay on good behavior and keep her laughing and interested in me.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I honestly cannot take any credit. All credit goes to my wife for being willing to work with me through this. She is the amazing one. I am just making my best attempt to pick up the pieces.
> 
> I was so good last night, haha. I didn't ask about OM, I didn't make any jokes (which usually jut come off as rude comments) and we had a great night.
> 
> I am finding some new comedians for the ipod today to make the drive light for this weekend. It should be good. We are both in up beat moods about it, and looking forward to it.
> 
> Thank you all for your support. This has moved along better than I could have imagined, even with the bumps in the road. Still a lot of work to do yet though. Need to stay on good behavior and keep her laughing and interested in me.


Glad to hear things are looking up Barnowl. Please keep this in the back of your mind: no one really knows what might trigger your wife, not even her. So bear in mind that if she freezes up and has a look of devastation, something has happened that she links to your affairs. You will need to be there for her, and do anything and everything you can to be supportive and understanding. Hope you guys had a good trip!


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## Barnowl

The weekend went really well everyone! We had a great time, hardly left the hotel room, and spent a lot of great time together. About the trigger issue...she doesn't seem to trigger too much yet, but she definitely has thoughts and issues pop into her head which can affect her mood. That happened a few times, but I just tried to talk her through the thoughts she was having, and answer any questions she had. I am amazed how well things went. We have spent a lot of time together, and I am looking forward to tonight. Keep on going...keep it up, and I think we will be ok.


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## Zanna

Great news, Barnowl. I had a feeling your wife just needed time.

Please be patient with her. She may trigger and she may also hit the anger phase soon. You're going to have to be strong for her and prove to her that she is worth it.

Best of luck.


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## Barnowl

Self sabotage again. I looked at her phone and locked it by trying to guess the password. I can't f*cking leave it alone. I told her as soon as it happened, and it immediately ruined her night, and undid all of the progress we have made for the past week. She is right in believing that I cannot control my actions. She thinks that if the opportunity to cheat arises again, then I will jump right in. I try to tell her I won't, but the reality is that my actions say otherwise. It makes me mad and embarrassed. Why can't I just leave well enough alone and have a decent few days for both of our sakes??


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## Zanna

If she has nothing to hide, why is she worried about you looking at your phone? And how does looking at her phone show her you will cheat again? Sorry but that makes no sense to me.

If she expects you to be transparent (and she should), then I don't see why you can't expect the same from her. I understand that you cheated but she should show some compassion for you as she did threaten to start dating.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Self sabotage again. I looked at her phone and locked it by trying to guess the password. I can't f*cking leave it alone. I told her as soon as it happened, and it immediately ruined her night, and undid all of the progress we have made for the past week. She is right in believing that I cannot control my actions. She thinks that if the opportunity to cheat arises again, then I will jump right in. I try to tell her I won't, but the reality is that my actions say otherwise. It makes me mad and embarrassed. Why can't I just leave well enough alone and have a decent few days for both of our sakes??




Barnowl --- Can you please explain to us what the new boundaries you both have agreed to are? In a relationship with cheating ( on either side) I believe that being transparent is the only way to begin gaining each others trust. My H cheated, but I also agreed to be transparent. Why? Nothing to hide. It was as simple as that. If your wife wishes to work on the marriage, this is going to be a must. You BOTH have to be okay with the other one seeing what you are up to on phones, emails, texts, etc, etc. 

If you don't know what the new boundaries are, then that means its time to talk over them with your wife.


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## Barnowl

I don't feel like we are even in R yet, so there has been no discussion of boundaries or anything. We are still in a limbo of sorts. The lock on the phone is basically to keep me from rooting through it. I haven't ever found anything on it, but she just doesn't want me to search through it. Once we enter into R or something, then I think the full transparency will come on both sides. I am completely transparent at this point in attempting to rebuild trust.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I don't feel like we are even in R yet, so there has been no discussion of boundaries or anything. We are still in a limbo of sorts. The lock on the phone is basically to keep me from rooting through it. I haven't ever found anything on it, but she just doesn't want me to search through it. Once we enter into R or something, then I think the full transparency will come on both sides. I am completely transparent at this point in attempting to rebuild trust.


But WHY doesn't she want you going through it? My husband, my mom, my dad, and my brother could all go through my cell phone for all I care. There is nothing on it to hide from anyone.


I do think that your guilt is blinding you to some parts of this. I am not saying you need to go all Rambo on her or anything. But what makes it okay for her to deny you access to her cell phone? I have never denied that to my H, before or after he cheated. Something isn't adding up there.


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## Barnowl

Yeah I agree...I don't know this issue is something I am willing to press right now. She does still talk to the OM, but I know they aren't doing anything. Mostly I know this because I have spent so much time with her lately. She just doesn't want to answer to whatever she says to him (which has been nothing really). She starts to feel blamed, and I am sure I blame-shift to her instead of focusing on my own infidelity. We need to solve one issue at a time.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Yeah I agree...I don't know this issue is something I am willing to press right now. She does still talk to the OM, but I know they aren't doing anything. Mostly I know this because I have spent so much time with her lately. She just doesn't want to answer to whatever she says to him (which has been nothing really). She starts to feel blamed, and I am sure I blame-shift to her instead of focusing on my own infidelity. We need to solve one issue at a time.


 I agree with the fact you need to not blameshift. But that is not what this is. This is about you both needing some new boundaries for any type of relationship you are going to be in. I concur she needs a GIRLfriend to talk to about all this stuff. But not the OM. You already have some she has laid down. You are not to have contact with your OW's, and you apparently are not to check her phone. What are your boundaries right now? No contact with the OM should be #1 at that list. They may not be sleeping together, but their talking is still damaging.


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## Barnowl

No contact with the OM will not be possible. They work together. She also will not stop being friends with him. We have already discussed this. She still wants to date other people. The only reason she hasn't pursued it is because I have been treating her well and spending time with her. Like I said, we aren't in R. In fact, we are still one foot in the grave of divorce. I have a fine line to walk for a while until she commits to me again...right now her guard is up, and she isn't committed to me. Her actions show that, as do her words....It frustrates me, but I can't do anything about it right now.


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## mahike

You are the cheater. The A is a 100% on your shoulders. As far as the marriage problems go it is usually a 50 50 thing.

Get yourself into MC and then invite your wife to go as well when ever she is ready. It may take sometime. She is hurting, you are learning about the things that are going through her head today. She needs space but I know the revenge thing is something most of us BS think about at one point.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> No contact with the OM will not be possible. They work together. She also will not stop being friends with him. We have already discussed this. She still wants to date other people. The only reason she hasn't pursued it is because I have been treating her well and spending time with her. Like I said, we aren't in R. In fact, we are still one foot in the grave of divorce. I have a fine line to walk for a while until she commits to me again...right now her guard is up, and she isn't committed to me. Her actions show that, as do her words....It frustrates me, but I can't do anything about it right now.


Can I ask what has changed that now makes this circumstance acceptable to you? You were pretty insistent that you would file for D immediately if she wanted to date weren't you? I might have you confused with another poster, so let me know.


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## Barnowl

DawnD said:


> Can I ask what has changed that now makes this circumstance acceptable to you? You were pretty insistent that you would file for D immediately if she wanted to date weren't you? I might have you confused with another poster, so let me know.


What I said is that I would have a hard time with it, which I will, but I am not insistent at this point in filing for D. I don't want a D, so I am not going to file. If she really starts dating, and moving on, then I will re-evaluate, but for now I am sticking to her and not filing. The OM is a friend of hers, and isn't someone that she is dating. She does hang out with him, but I really believe her that nothing is going on.


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## eman

I'm pulling for you Barnowl. I hope things keep getting better for you.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> What I said is that I would have a hard time with it, which I will, but I am not insistent at this point in filing for D. I don't want a D, so I am not going to file. If she really starts dating, and moving on, then I will re-evaluate, but for now I am sticking to her and not filing. The OM is a friend of hers, and isn't someone that she is dating. She does hang out with him, but I really believe her that nothing is going on.


I agree that you shouldn't be insistent in filing if you are not ready. I do think that the phone thing is bad news. Is there something that I didn't read about in your thread that permits it as being reasonable?

I am rooting for you Barnowl, I truly am.


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## Barnowl

Basically the phone boils down to her feeling like I can't control myself. When I can exhibit control in not rooting through her phone, she will unlock it. I trust that she will do that. She worries that I won't be able to control myself when the opportunity to be with another woman comes up...I am trying to prove that I can be in control. I don't know...she has her guard up. Nothing about this situation lends itself to being "normal" in any way, so I am trying not to look into the phone deal too much. The lock will come off when the time is right, and if it doesn't then we will have some things to discuss.


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## DawnD

I am having trouble seeing how the two issues are linked, but as long as you are okay with how things are happening for now, then progress is progress 


It might be in your interest to sit down and write a letter, even if you don't give it to her now, about your regrets. How you hurt the marriage with your A's, how you hurt her, what you should have done, etc, etc. I actually still have a letter like that from my H, 3 years later, and read it on occassion just when I am feeling a little down and out. It truly helps reading something like that from him, and its there whenever I need it to be.


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## Regret214

Barnowl,
It sounds to me that you and your wife have a highly volatile relationship. You both need to take a step back and stop trying to outdo each other in hurting each other. You need to TALK!!!! not argue. You need to LISTEN!!!! and not respond. You are the one who f'd up and you need to let her know that you own that. She has every right to be angry and hurt, but she needs to decide if she wants to reconcile or hurt you the way she was hurt.

Just my 2 cents....from a WW early in R!


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## I'm The Prize

I've just been reading about your situation. It really makes me trigger. But, knowing that I think I can give you some things to think about. (Forgive me if I missed some of the answers within the thread, it was long)

1. You say you rarely had sex. Did you talk to her about that before you had the affair? Did you offer to go to therapy to get help with the issue?
2. Do you feel that the lack of sex "caused" the affair?

I am going to give you some things from inside my head. I'm not your wife but I'm pretty sure she probably feels a lot of the things I have. We had problems with our sex life, some of them were my personal issues and some where from the marriage that made it worse. I acknowledged the problems. I even asked to go to therapy, he refused, said he wasn't the one with the problem. So, I didn't get help and we didn't have sex. So, he used this to justify his affair. He said he was 100% to blame but he heaped most of the blame for the condition of our marriage on me. 
So, let me tell you how that thought process worked with me. First it screamed "sex is extremely important to me but sex with you is less so because I'm not willing to get you and us help but I am willing to have sex with a gold digging w**** to get it". 
Second, in my vulnerable state it made me feel guilt on top of everything else. 
Third, it made me panic and thus the hysterical bounding sex which made me feel like a w**** because it made me physically ill every time (he never noticed I threw my guts up afterward).
Fourth, I heard the unspoken words "if I don't get enough sex, when I want it, with you coming to get it, how I want it, I won't bother to say so, I'll just find someone who will give it up". So, now, no matter what he "says" I'm always worried it's not enough. Do you really want her to think that every time, thinking she can't even say no because then it's her fault all over again?

Do not for one minute think that you are not also responsible for the sex situation. You knew, you did nothing, you didn't insist on a solution, you simply lacked the integrity to face it head on or walk away. You took the selfish coward's way out and took care of yourself. Now you have said things along the lines of if she comes back she will have to agree to a certain amount of times in a week and some have supported you. That comment from my FWH would have screamed "look, it's your fault, I don't care how hurt you are or how dirty me touching is to you right now, you better give it up or you'll deserve another round." Really?
I really don't want to be insensitive but I really wish you'd realize that it's not just what is say but what is heard that give the WS a problem. Sometimes words that would be clear by themselves take on new meaning when coupled with the experience of the affair.


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## thebuckest

Imo your wife is basically in R subconsciously. She doesn't date doesn't divorce but just keeps testing you. Unfortunately u keep failing lol. But she keeps going with you. I I were u I would just be yourself be confident and leave the dmn phone alone. U realize u can't stop an affair so why try. I know ur wifes says she wants to date but instead dates u. This is screaming that she loves you and I bet if u just love her back and trust her (which u should already for go sakes u cheated not her.) Things will only get better. Just try it dude if not ur just looking needy and insane. I know the thought of ur wife leaving you is overwhelming but instead of showing insecurity show love and affection mixed with a dash of confidence. She has the power bro bend with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Barnowl

Ok, it has been a short while, so I figured an update was appropriate. We have had a few good weeks with a few very very good days, and a few very very bad days, but overall things are feeling relatively smooth, and at times "normal". My wife is an amazing person with a high resolve to be happy, and I think she is doing everything she can to find happiness in her life even during this horrible situation.



I'm The Prize said:


> I am going to give you some things from inside my head. I'm not your wife but I'm pretty sure she probably feels a lot of the things I have. We had problems with our sex life, some of them were my personal issues and some where from the marriage that made it worse. I acknowledged the problems. I even asked to go to therapy, he refused, said he wasn't the one with the problem. So, I didn't get help and we didn't have sex. So, he used this to justify his affair. He said he was 100% to blame but he heaped most of the blame for the condition of our marriage on me.
> So, let me tell you how that thought process worked with me. First it screamed "sex is extremely important to me but sex with you is less so because I'm not willing to get you and us help but I am willing to have sex with a gold digging w**** to get it".
> Second, in my vulnerable state it made me feel guilt on top of everything else.
> Third, it made me panic and thus the hysterical bounding sex which made me feel like a w**** because it made me physically ill every time (he never noticed I threw my guts up afterward).
> Fourth, I heard the unspoken words "if I don't get enough sex, when I want it, with you coming to get it, how I want it, I won't bother to say so, I'll just find someone who will give it up". So, now, no matter what he "says" I'm always worried it's not enough. Do you really want her to think that every time, thinking she can't even say no because then it's her fault all over again?
> 
> Do not for one minute think that you are not also responsible for the sex situation. You knew, you did nothing, you didn't insist on a solution, you simply lacked the integrity to face it head on or walk away. You took the selfish coward's way out and took care of yourself. Now you have said things along the lines of if she comes back she will have to agree to a certain amount of times in a week and some have supported you. That comment from my FWH would have screamed "look, it's your fault, I don't care how hurt you are or how dirty me touching is to you right now, you better give it up or you'll deserve another round." Really?
> I really don't want to be insensitive but I really wish you'd realize that it's not just what is say but what is heard that give the WS a problem. Sometimes words that would be clear by themselves take on new meaning when coupled with the experience of the affair.


What you have said here seems to be right in line with where my wife is at. Her guard is up, and she is fearful that no matter what happens in our sex life, it won't be enough for me, and I will leave her or cheat on her again. I can only be supportive, and tell her how much I appreciate the intimacy we have shared in the past three months, and that I think we will be able to make it. I told her just the other night that I was so wrong to bring up our sex life the way I did in the first few weeks. Our intimacy I so tightly tied to our emotional connection, that really I was the one to be blamed for lack of sex because I had emotionally detached from her. As seen in the past few months and weeks, when we are close emotionally, the physical side simply and easily falls into place. We have both been really happy with our physical relationship, and I am honestly satisfied and feel so good about it.

The craziest part about this whole thing to me is that our sex life has been completely charged by this. We aren't having an insane amount of sex, and the hystercal bonding sex didn't last long. We have just sort of fallen into a groove or regularity that honestly has never happened in our marriage before. I dare say we have had sex more in the past three months than we did in the past two years or more, it is that dramatic of a change.

Both of us are still moving one day at a time. She is still in her apartment, and we still have regular sleepovers. Rarely do we sleep apart. The apartment feels like a safe place...some sort of middle ground that isn't tied to our lives and the life we had prior to d-day. 

The divorce word hasn't really come up at all in the past few weeks other than one terrible night...but I think ups and dows are to be expected. I still don't know what will happen, but for now I am working on being the husband I should have been, and she is reacting so positively to my actions that it reinforces how much I want to be a part of her life. She gives me really good positive feedback in body language and her mood, and regardless what she says, I think that we are in some sort of "R". 

We talk about the future sometimes. About how we will sell our house and start over in a new place. Really try for a new start. Work on our marriage. Actually have a marriage. We have also talked a lot about kids, which up to this point we have both been on the same plane of not wanting them until a little later in life. I have found spirituality inside me that has been buried for a long time. It feels nice. I am feeling positive about where we are. Tomorrow could be different. Who knows. That is the nature of this rollercoaster. I am willing to ride it out though. I am here for the long haul, and feel like there is nowhere but up to go from here.


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## Barnowl

thebuckest said:


> Things will only get better. Just try it dude if not ur just looking needy and insane. I know the thought of ur wife leaving you is overwhelming but instead of showing insecurity show love and affection mixed with a dash of confidence. She has the power bro bend with it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I really like the way you put this by the way. Thanks!


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## happyman64

Good for you Barnowl. Never give up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Barnowl

Ahh! I am so insecure. My BW is going out tonight with work friends tonight. She will most likely be out super late, and she will be with the OM that she was hanging out with, among other single and available men of her age (as well as women) all that she works with. I know them all, and they are a fun group. They are going to a movie in the park type deal tonight after a work function, so it is all fairly public, but damn I am having a hard time. Mostly I just wish that I could go because it sounds really fun, but I am shunned from her work friends who all think she needs to leave me. She doesn't really tell her friends that she and I are still seeing eachother like we are. 

I am projecting my behavior onto her so badly. I trust her, I really do, so I don't know why in the world I can't just let her enjoy her time out with her friends. I made some comments this morning alluding to her behavior with a different guy than the first. He is married, but she sure talks about him a lot. Her reaction was pretty defensive, and she is tired of me coming at her with this stuff. I told her that her defensive reaction doesn't make me feel any better about what could be going on, and she told me that I am the one who cheated, and she isn't a cheater and that I need look at what I have done instead of what she has or hasn't done...

The counselor suggested that during our separation right now, that we actually try a real separation. We rarely go a night not sleeping in the same bed, and we talk every day multiple times per day. I wonder if a blackout on our relationship is the right thing to do. If we should step away for a few days or a week or some amount of time. The counselor wonders what the point of her moving out is if we continue to just be together constantly. He is probably right. 

I am just not feeling well about things today. I have been good. I haven't cheated again. I haven't contacted the OW, I have done what I think I should be doing. Yet I still feel super insecure about our future, and I can't seem to stop projecting. Before the affair came to light, I wouldn't have given two thoughts to her going out with work friends. It is as if my affair coming out in the open has opened my eyes to the potential for anyone to cheat. I need to trust her. I need to understand that I don't have control. Blah.

Is there a "180 for wayward spouses"?? I feel like I need to do the 180 just to get myself working on myself and not worrying about what she is doing (which I don't believe is anything other than being normal and hanging out with friends...)


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## Tall Average Guy

Barnowl said:


> The counselor suggested that during our separation right now, that we actually try a real separation. We rarely go a night not sleeping in the same bed, and we talk every day multiple times per day. I wonder if a blackout on our relationship is the right thing to do. If we should step away for a few days or a week or some amount of time. The counselor wonders what the point of her moving out is if we continue to just be together constantly. He is probably right.


Why is he right? What is the point of having a "real" separation? What will it accomplish and who will it help?



> Is there a "180 for wayward spouses"?? I feel like I need to do the 180 just to get myself working on myself and not worrying about what she is doing (which I don't believe is anything other than being normal and hanging out with friends...)


I would not do a 180, but I would make sure you work on you. That means continuing counseling, get yourself in shape emotionally and physically, and working on your happiness. Your wife is not in charge of that, you are, so working on it will hep your marriage.


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## tacoma

The apartment serves the purpose of giving your wife a good level of security.

Do not engage in separation as it will only push you two farther away.

Your wife seems to be in a type of limbo because of your affair she`s testing the waters of a single life.

There isn`t anything you can do about it except to make your marriage look a lot more appealing than a possible single life.

Roll with these punches Barnowl, don`t 180 as it will just push her more towards that single life.

You`re doing alright, keep at it.


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## Paladin

If you know where she is going to be tonight, contact a flower delivery store, and have flowers brought to her when she arrives at her destination. Attach a card to the flowers that expresses your love for her, and your desire for her to have a fun time. If you know what movie she wanted to see, attach a movie ticket to the flowers, maybe even two or three, so she can give one to her female friends.

You nailed it on the head about projecting. Let it go, and hope for her to have a fun time. She needs a mental break as much as you do. 

Tell your counselor that if he can not find a way to conduct sessions in a way that matches your goals (reconciliation), you will seek a diff counselor. Separation at this point in time seems to me to be counter intuitive.

Continue working on yourself, find a hobby to keep yourself busy while she is out doing her thing. Keep your mind off of it.


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## SomedayDig

I agree 100% with Paladin, tell your counselor to get with YOUR program. If you are trying to reconcile, the worst thing to do is say, "Yeah...let's separate, that'll help". Oh, I know that one from my first marriage because that's what we were told to do. What'd my fWW from eons ago do? Well...she continued her cheating and I caught her again - in the bar with her guy. (I know you're the WS but it still jives)

If she's in an apartment now, that's enough of a separation. 

As for tonite...well, man - the Olympics are on and I know that's what I've watched when I need to deal with Regret and my situation. It's a good break. It's nice to see these young people realize their dreams. Oh. And breathe. That's another good thing to do sometimes. Just Breathe.


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## Barnowl

Another weekend gone...I ended up going to visit some family about 2 hours away from home on Friday to keep my mind off my wife and her night out with friends. Originally she was going to drive part way on Saturday morning, and I was going to meet her, and drive her back up there to do some boating on Saturday afternoon. To keep things short, our conversations disolved on friday night when she got home from hanging out, beacuse I was a jerk to her, and I ended up driving all the way back home at 2am. The next morning after about 4 hours of sleep I was able to convince her to drive back up to the lake with me. Saturday ended up being a lot of fun in spite of the situation. Sunday was good too. Spent time with family, and did dinner and a movie. 

She is having a hell of a time though. Leaving the movie was rough last night. She told me that she never quits thinking about what I have done. She doesn't know if she will ever be able to cope with it. I have been so needy lately that I worry that she doesn't respect me. I need to stop worrying about what she is doing, and just focus oin supporting her during this insane emotional time. My insecurities are getting the best of me most of the time.

As for the counselor and the separation. My wife isn't convinced that separation is a good idea either. We have talked about it this week since her last counseling session, and we are going to talk about it in our next MC session this week. I am going to express my interest in not doing a separation, and say that the apartment serves the purpose of providing her a safe place away from the marriage home that she can relax. Who knows what will come from that.

The decision to stay or to go is weighing very heavily on my wife. Here we are exactly three months to the day away from DDay. Originally I asked her not to make any decisions for at least three months. Now that it has been three months, I still feel nowhere near ready to know what is going on. This process is going to take some serious time.


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## happyman64

BarnOwl,

Give your wife some credit. She is still with you and spending time with you.

And I understand the part where she keeps thinking about what you did.

That is normal too.

Keep working on you my man. And you should feel lucky that your wife is still trying as well.

HM64


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## cpacan

I am 15 months out and still think about what she did, almost every day.
It doesn't destroy me anymore, but i think about it.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Another weekend gone...I ended up going to visit some family about 2 hours away from home on Friday to keep my mind off my wife and her night out with friends. Originally she was going to drive part way on Saturday morning, and I was going to meet her, and drive her back up there to do some boating on Saturday afternoon. To keep things short, our conversations disolved on friday night when she got home from hanging out, beacuse I was a jerk to her, and I ended up driving all the way back home at 2am. The next morning after about 4 hours of sleep I was able to convince her to drive back up to the lake with me. Saturday ended up being a lot of fun in spite of the situation. Sunday was good too. Spent time with family, and did dinner and a movie.
> 
> She is having a hell of a time though. Leaving the movie was rough last night. She told me that she never quits thinking about what I have done. She doesn't know if she will ever be able to cope with it. I have been so needy lately that I worry that she doesn't respect me. I need to stop worrying about what she is doing, and just focus oin supporting her during this insane emotional time. My insecurities are getting the best of me most of the time.
> 
> As for the counselor and the separation. My wife isn't convinced that separation is a good idea either. We have talked about it this week since her last counseling session, and we are going to talk about it in our next MC session this week. I am going to express my interest in not doing a separation, and say that the apartment serves the purpose of providing her a safe place away from the marriage home that she can relax. Who knows what will come from that.
> 
> The decision to stay or to go is weighing very heavily on my wife. Here we are exactly three months to the day away from DDay. Originally I asked her not to make any decisions for at least three months. Now that it has been three months, I still feel nowhere near ready to know what is going on. This process is going to take some serious time.


 Why were you a jerk to her? Are you doing any individual counseling Barn? I will be dead honest with you right now. You think your wife has lost respect for you? Yes, she has. Lying, cheating, behavior post Dday, and your continuing behavior towards her is making her lose respect for you. YOU screwed up. YOU need to work on fixing your behavior. her respect for you will continue to diminish the longer you avoid working out the fact you need to learn how to NOT project your crap onto her.


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## Barnowl

I want to say I hear you and I understand, but my insane behaviordoesn't really support that. When I think rationally I do well, but when I start to freak out and my insecurties take over, I seriously become manic. 

I was a jerk to her because she had told me all day that she would drive halfway to the lake, and then when she called me after midnite coming home from hanging out with friends, she just up and told me she didn't want to come. It put me in a bad mood, and I was defensive and rude and told her that doing things with the family meant less to her than being with her friends...which I know isn't true. I guess I just pushed buttons.

In regards to the respect issue...I can feel it from her. The stronger I am, and the better man I am, I can feel that she respects me more. I need to become indifferent to her hanging out with friends, specifically her guy friend. It just bothers me to no end.

This is why I like this forum. I need to be told (repeatedly it would seem) that I need to work on myself and not project my bullsh*t onto her. I am working on it, but it is difficult. This is all just really difficult.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I want to say I hear you and I understand, but my insane behaviordoesn't really support that. When I think rationally I do well, but when I start to freak out and my insecurties take over, I seriously become manic.
> 
> I was a jerk to her because she had told me all day that she would drive halfway to the lake, and then when she called me after midnite coming home from hanging out with friends, she just up and told me she didn't want to come. It put me in a bad mood, and I was defensive and rude and told her that doing things with the family meant less to her than being with her friends...which I know isn't true. I guess I just pushed buttons.
> 
> In regards to the respect issue...I can feel it from her. The stronger I am, and the better man I am, I can feel that she respects me more. I need to become indifferent to her hanging out with friends, specifically her guy friend. It just bothers me to no end
> This is why I like this forum. I need to be told (repeatedly it would seem) that I need to work on myself and not project my bullsh*t onto her. I am working on it, but it is difficult. This is all just really difficult.


 Believe me, its not just you. my H had a horrible habit of going ape sh** crazy when I was going out to do something or getting away to get some time to myself. He would make me feel so HORRIBLE and selfish, and like I had done something that would warrant his mistrust, and that almost broke us. Not only did it make me feel like I was being punished for what HE did, it also made me think of him as less of a man for being unable to accept complete responsibility for his actions. He had not quite figured out that the more he projected his "crazy" onto me, the less respect I had, and the love I had for him started to diminish very quickly.

I won't say it is easy, but I see you hear Barn, TRYING to save this, and I am fairly certain that the first step you need to take right now, is recognizing your tendency to project this stuff onto her, stop yourself before you verbalize it, and continue to show her you fully accept the actions and consequences. My H barely found that in time, and I think its because he came in here and read my thread asking about this kind of behavior and saw the advice from others posted. This does SOOO much damage on so many levels.


----------



## Barnowl

She has asked me if I understand what I did. I KNOW what I did, but she does not feel that I understand what I have done. I have been thinking about this a lot. I feel that I understand, but there is a part of me that thinks I have pushed past the infidelity too quickly, and have pushed her to work on other aspect of our marriage. I need to own my actions 100%, and I need to show her that I own them 100% without making any expectations to her about her behavior or actions. That is the hardest part. Full commitment to understanding the horrible thing I have done has not been easy for me. 

I don't know what to do next other than just be nice to her, and hope for the best. I have been honest and at least I know that. I have not contacted the OW, I have not been doing anything behind her back, and I have been forthright in my behavior...to the point of becoming manic and insane...

Just keep perssing forward. Work on me. I need a good run or something to clear my head and wear me out. When I am worn out, I seem to be less capable of my batsh*t crazy rants. 

I need to say it again though. My wife is an amazing person to still be around me all of this. She has made this all o much easier on me than it needed to be, and I thank her for that regularly.


----------



## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I feel that I understand, but there is a part of me that thinks I have pushed past the infidelity too quickly, and have pushed her to work on other aspect of our marriage.



You should know by now, that yes you absolutely pushed the issues of your marriage too quickly, basically wanting to not talk about your cheating and get straight to the marital issues. Instead of giving your wife time to even begin to tell you how you hurt her and what she might need from you, you went straight to " I cheated, BUT if YOU....." which is such a horrible thing to say to someone you betrayed on every level possible. I don't feel that you truly understand the damage you have done either. I think your wife is truly struggling with this, because your behavior after dday was so horrid. Instead of accepting responsibility, you tried more than a few times to place it on her. There is a good chance she may not believe you when you now say you know that was wrong. Do you know WHY it was wrong to do that? Do you know the level of pain you caused her just by trying to blame her for your a's??


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## Barnowl

To be fair, I never blamed her. I never said the words, "I cheated, BUT..." I just didn't ever do that specifically. When the counselor asked me to consider what made me step out of the marriage, I was honest in saying that I resented the physical side of our marriage, and that after 6 months of no physical contact with my wife, I chose to step out. This is backhanded blaming her, and I get that, but that is my honest feeling. I don't believe that cheating is a trait that I will take forward into my current relationship or any future relationships. It was a poor coping mechanism, and I have grown from that, but habitually cheating is not me. 

I understand that I have crushed her. I have ruined parts of her that she will never get back. Watching her struggle with that is what makes me understand what I have done. I haven't pushed the sex issue for 4-6 weeks at least, and I told her that I don't feel like we are in a place where I can say anything about it. We need to work on the infidelity first, and then see if there is even a marriage left to work on after.

Of course I say these things, and then go manic and insane at other times. We are both riding the rollercoaster, but I feel like it is levelling out a bit. The first 6 weeks were a lot more crazy than the past 6 weeks, but there is still a lot of evening out to do before either of us will feel at all normal.

I am mostly just waiting for the day when she tells me that she can no longer be with me. I can see that she is trying to work through the "stay or go" feelings. I can't control her decision, so I am just trying to work on me and hope that she sees something worth salvaging in our relationship.

Thanks for the honest comments. I know I haven't been good at this...but I have been the best I could be along the way. Hopefully I can just get better.


----------



## cabin fever

keep up with your manic BS, and your day will come alot sooner then you think. 

I'm not trying to be a smart azz, but you really do need to work on you, and quit waiting around to see what she is gonna do. 

She doesn't want to come back to the old you. In her eyes, the old you is a lying, cheating, manipulating bastard. You need to show her the more paitent, laid back, fun loving, and caring you. 

In stead of telling her that her friends are more important then guilt tripping her into coming to the lake, you should have said. "

"I understand. I was just hoping we could spend some more time together is why I want you to come, but if you don't want to, I'll catch up with you when I get back. " 

IMO, that would have spoke volumes to her. Because its not something you would normally do. 

good luck man. I truly am pulling for you.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> To be fair, I never blamed her. I never said the words, "I cheated, BUT..." I just didn't ever do that specifically. When the counselor asked me to consider what made me step out of the marriage, I was honest in saying that I resented the physical side of our marriage, and that after 6 months of no physical contact with my wife, I chose to step out. This is backhanded blaming her, and I get that, but that is my honest feeling. I don't believe that cheating is a trait that I will take forward into my current relationship or any future relationships. It was a poor coping mechanism, and I have grown from that, but habitually cheating is not me.
> 
> I understand that I have crushed her. I have ruined parts of her that she will never get back. Watching her struggle with that is what makes me understand what I have done. I haven't pushed the sex issue for 4-6 weeks at least, and I told her that I don't feel like we are in a place where I can say anything about it. We need to work on the infidelity first, and then see if there is even a marriage left to work on after.
> 
> Of course I say these things, and then go manic and insane at other times. We are both riding the rollercoaster, but I feel like it is levelling out a bit. The first 6 weeks were a lot more crazy than the past 6 weeks, but there is still a lot of evening out to do before either of us will feel at all normal.
> 
> I am mostly just waiting for the day when she tells me that she can no longer be with me. I can see that she is trying to work through the "stay or go" feelings. I can't control her decision, so I am just trying to work on me and hope that she sees something worth salvaging in our relationship.
> 
> Thanks for the honest comments. I know I haven't been good at this...but I have been the best I could be along the way. Hopefully I can just get better.


 I know you may not have verbally said that to your wife, but most of your actions have said it for you. The insistence on moving forward and discussing not your affair, but what lead to it is basically the same thing. So remember that your actions are showing her these things too. 

Everyone stumbles during R. We did, I am sure you guys have, and probably everyone on this sight has. Its gonna happen, but remember that she will probably be looking for how/when/if you get back up and keep trucking. 

You are doing good Barnowl, these are honestly just more tips and ways to think on things. The hardest thing for the BS is wondering if the WS even knows what they did, and on every level. Letters explaining these things are good. You can write it anytime and deliver it when the timing is right


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I will absolutely be the man I was supposed to be, if she will own up to her 50% of the marriage problems, and be the wife I thought I married. If I had known going in that we would have had sex an average of 10-12 times per year, I would have never married her. Honestly, I want a reconciliation, because I love that woman, but thinking back to 6 years in hell with my manhood in a jar makes me think I should just file for divorce, cut the losses, and move on. I will play her wishy-washy game for a while longer, but at some point if she won't own up to her own faults, then I have to move on. I can't handle the heavy lifting of both 100% of my cheating, and 100% of the marriage problems. I will lift 150% all day long for the rest of my life if she will come to the table willing to do her 50% share.
> 
> At this point, she is at 0%, and blames me 210% for everything. I am pissed, I am angry, and I am so glad that I have this place that I can type this out because it stops me from sending her an angry text message. Ahhh!
> 
> I hope in some way there will be a betrayed spouse out there who reads the words of a cheater who is honestly trying to reconcile their marriage, and gains some good perspective from this thread. It has been helpful for me to read your replies and change my attitude and behaviors in some ways...but ultimately, I think I am still selfish, and rude, and just want what I want right now...maybe R won't work for me. It scares me that I am going to take this baggage into another relationship someday. If I divorce, that is it. I am single for life. (angry bitter rant over.)


 This was back in May, Barnowl. I am sure that your wife was getting this same vibe from you too. This is what I mean when I say you were telling her "yes I cheated BUT....."


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## Barnowl

Ugh, I read that and can't believe I said those things. I certainly have a better understanding now than I did then...


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## Paladin

To emotional roller coaster does not belong to the BS exclusively. The WS rides it too, except without the "safety bars" of being on the moral high ground.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Ugh, I read that and can't believe I said those things. I certainly have a better understanding now than I did then...


I know it can suck to look back sometimes. I have certainly done things that I don't want to have to go back and evaluate myself for. I think its a necessary tool for you right now though. Reflecting completely on who you were (even during the affairs) will help you get the complete picture that you wife has of you. The emotional disconnect, etc,etc are things that are probably snow balling with the trauma from your affairs. Keep that in mind, and you really are doing well Barnowl. I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it.


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## Tall Average Guy

Barnowl said:


> Ugh, I read that and can't believe I said those things. I certainly have a better understanding now than I did then...


Have you told this to your wife? I don't think it can hurt to let her know what you have learned and how you are trying to improve.


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## happyman64

> I am mostly just waiting for the day when she tells me that she can no longer be with me. I can see that she is trying to work through the "stay or go" feelings. I can't control her decision, so I am just trying to work on me and hope that she sees something worth salvaging in our relationship.


And instead of waiting for the day that she tells you to get lost, give her the benefit of the doubt that she is showing you right now.

Live your life as a good man that loves his wife no matter what. And show her that you want to be with her, you will love only her.

That is the actions she needs to see from you.

Get busy buddy! Focus on you and knock off the crazy behavior......


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## Barnowl

I am having a hard time staying the course. Things have fallen into a weird funk between us. I don't know if I have the same gusto for R that I had before, and as we slowly move further from DDay, I feel more and more that the previous marriage we were in was very unsatisfying on the whole for me. Her unwillingness to help around the house, or with our animals. Her general lack of interest in everything and anything. Our sex life dropped off again. 

I don't know what to do. I want to stay committed to the effort, but I am having a hard time staying excited for the reality that our marriage may never change into something that I want...


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I am having a hard time staying the course. Things have fallen into a weird funk between us. I don't know if I have the same gusto for R that I had before, and as we slowly move further from DDay, I feel more and more that the previous marriage we were in was very unsatisfying on the whole for me. Her unwillingness to help around the house, or with our animals. Her general lack of interest in everything and anything. Our sex life dropped off again.
> 
> I don't know what to do. I want to stay committed to the effort, but I am having a hard time staying excited for the reality that our marriage may never change into something that I want...


She is probably depressed Barnowl. Learning that you have been betrayed by the one who was supposed to love and protect you isn't easy. Ask her if she thinks she might be depressed.


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## DawnD

Barnowl -- I am trying to keep it short, since there is a good chance I was pushing my luck in another thread. But really, come ON. You were cheating on her for 3 years and now since she isn't jumping up and down and ready to make the marriage better in 3 months since she found out, you aren't sure you want R to happen? Come ON barnowl.


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## Barnowl

^^^ I hear you Dawn, but the reality is that I should have left the marriage years ago. I cheated instead of taking the hard road out of the marriage. I made the horrible wrong choice. Now I am really considering my own future and what I might want long term. I wonder if my efforts to R are really just an attempt to make good on the bad situation. To somehow soften the blow that I cheated, and then I might walk away. Damn, I don't know what to do...


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## ReturnOfTheKitty

In my experience, the best decisions are the ones taken when you're plagued with indecision. I think you should call it quits, because you're so early in R and you've already lost interest in her. I shudder to think whats going to happen a few years down the road. Some people are not meant to be monogamous( I don't pass judgement, just an observation). You could spare both of you a lot of pain


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> ^^^ I hear you Dawn, but the reality is that I should have left the marriage years ago. I cheated instead of taking the hard road out of the marriage. I made the horrible wrong choice. Now I am really considering my own future and what I might want long term. I wonder if my efforts to R are really just an attempt to make good on the bad situation. To somehow soften the blow that I cheated, and then I might walk away. Damn, I don't know what to do...


 Can you actually tell me what efforts you were putting towards your wife years ago when the marriage started to suffer? If I remember correctly, your attention and focus went to other women. Now that you are being asked to put in the effort to reconcile with your wife without having the person waiting in the wings, you don't seem like you want to man up to the challenge. Its okay to feel sorry for your situation, its a crappy one to be in. And I agree that if you can't take the focus off of yourself long enough to let your wife heal before pushing her into working on the marriage, you should call it quits. This is an ongoing problem for you, that she can't just push past your affairs and run into working on the marriage. Several of us have told you that already, but if you know you truly aren't capable, then yes let her go.


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## Barnowl

^^^ Good point. Another thing bothering me is she will be gone out with friends all night, and is usually really late coming home. Gives me crazy anxiety, and just puts me in a funk all day long. 

I am giving it more time. The past three months haven't been telling enough for me to be willing to hold onto anything and make a decision. 

Just random mental musings today. Feeling blue, feeling down, and just a hard day in general. She is feeling down too. We are both on the low point of the emotional rollercoaster. Kind of just waiting for the next upswing again when things will be happier.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> ^^^ Good point. Another thing bothering me is she will be gone out with friends all night, and is usually really late coming home. Gives me crazy anxiety, and just puts me in a funk all day long.
> 
> I am giving it more time. The past three months haven't been telling enough for me to be willing to hold onto anything and make a decision.
> 
> Just random mental musings today. Feeling blue, feeling down, and just a hard day in general. She is feeling down too. We are both on the low point of the emotional rollercoaster. Kind of just waiting for the next upswing again when things will be happier.


DO NOT try to guilt her into not going out with her friends. LEARN from what has already happened. 

I am not saying this in a judgmental sense or accusatory, more for informational purposes. If my husband wanted me to get over his affair and start working on the marriage 3 months after it all hit the fan, I would have packed his bags for him and filed within the week. The thing that allowed us to move toward reconciliation was that he understood that time played a part. I was not going to be ready to talk about anything until I was done talking about the affair and all that was associated with it. If you keep pushing her to "hurry up and work on things" you are going to push her right out the door. Then years later you are going to wake up and be horrified at what you have done. 

This is not me saying that she can just drag on like this forever. Not at all. But she needs some time, and you need to give it to her. I took about a year. that was a LONG year, but he gave it to me. And it made all the difference.


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## Barnowl

Again, not projecting my own bullsh*t onto her has been something I am trying to do really hard lately. I am trying to give her the space she needs and wants, but the more space I have given her, the more she says she is feeling less love from me...? I don't get it. I have been pretty good to her today, but I did make her mad this morning. Stuff comes out of my mouth before I can even process it, and then later I am mad at myself for saying anything. Working on myself is the hardest thing for me. I will give her space and time tonight, and hopefully she has a great time and will be happy about it tomorrow.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Again, not projecting my own bullsh*t onto her has been something I am trying to do really hard lately. I am trying to give her the space she needs and wants, but the more space I have given her, the more she says she is feeling less love from me...? I don't get it. I have been pretty good to her today, but I did make her mad this morning. Stuff comes out of my mouth before I can even process it, and then later I am mad at myself for saying anything. Working on myself is the hardest thing for me. I will give her space and time tonight, and hopefully she has a great time and will be happy about it tomorrow.


I think you are mixing up "giving her space" with holding back your emotional side of the relationship. If she feels a huge gap in your relationship, then she will start to question your commitment, but if you encourage her to talk and do things to make her feel better and get her back to where her self esteem is high and she is feeling more like herself, then you are giving her space while trying to be involved. Example: My H wanted to 
"give me space" by backing away, having limited contact, and basically avoiding me. He gave me the type of space I was looking for when he saw me working out and looking into what degree plan I was looking at for college, and encouraged me and showing me affection. " You would be awesome in this career path babe, and I KNOW that you can get all these classes done and beat out anyone else for the positions that are open when you are done". " I am happy you like working out, and if it makes you feel good, you should keep doing it." All this while continuing to meet my needs for physical touch by purely putting ME first.


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## Barnowl

Ok, thank you, I completely see that. Why the h*ll can't she say that to me?! lol. Tomorrow I will do just what you said there. I am taking mental notes on things in her life that I can support her on. Really thank you, because I just got a sense of relief somehow from what you said. Sometimes it just needs to come from some third party on a suggestion for what to do.

Ok, onward and upward. I will have a better day tomorrow, that is for sure.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Ok, thank you, I completely see that. Why the h*ll can't she say that to me?! lol. Tomorrow I will do just what you said there. I am taking mental notes on things in her life that I can support her on. Really thank you, because I just got a sense of relief somehow from what you said. Sometimes it just needs to come from some third party on a suggestion for what to do.
> 
> Ok, onward and upward. I will have a better day tomorrow, that is for sure.


A couple of reasons she doesn't say exactly what she needs:

A.) She might not really know. Its all still pretty fresh

B.) She might know, but not be sure how to articulate it

c.) She may still have a fear that if she is anything less than a "perfect wife" that you will go running to another woman again. This keeps her from opening up because you might see her as "weak" or "damaged"


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## lisab0105

Also, she isn't saying anything probably because if she says what she needs from you and you give it to her, it won't feel genuine.

My guy thinks he needs to give me space..I don't need space, I need constant attention and affection from him. I need him to just randomly say "I am so sorry." I need him to tell me that I mean everything to him and this will never happen again before we go to bed at night. 

I don't tell him I need these things, because if it doesn't come from the heart, it doesn't really mean what I need it to mean.


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## Barnowl

^^^I like the way you put that lisab0105, thanks. I have been saying these things to her, and I know it sounds trite to simply say, "I am sorry" but I imagine that she can't hear it enough.

This was another strained weekend. Extended family was in town, and they don't really know what is going on. It makes it hard to at normal around them. Tensions were running high, but we made it through. 

Counseling appointment tonight, and I am feeling anxious for some reason for it. Usually they make me feel better, but nothing feels good right now, and I don't want it to blow up somehow. It has only been three months, but it feels like it has been years. 

My wife told me that she keeps waiting for "time to tell..." I think she thought that she would be resolved into a direction by now, and the fact that she isn't really bothers her. She doesn't want to leave, but she doesn't know how to live with me and the betrayal. I can't begin to undertand what she is going through, so I just sit there repentent and willing to offer up any support she needs or wants.

She is starting a new job in a couple of weeks, and I think the change of pace and scenery will be good for her. Something new to hopefully change her focus in her life a bit from everything that is bad to something that is good and hopeful.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> ^^^I like the way you put that lisab0105, thanks. I have been saying these things to her, and I know it sounds trite to simply say, "I am sorry" but I imagine that she can't hear it enough.
> 
> This was another strained weekend. Extended family was in town, and they don't really know what is going on. It makes it hard to at normal around them. Tensions were running high, but we made it through.
> 
> Counseling appointment tonight, and I am feeling anxious for some reason for it. Usually they make me feel better, but nothing feels good right now, and I don't want it to blow up somehow. It has only been three months, but it feels like it has been years.
> 
> My wife told me that she keeps waiting for "time to tell..." I think she thought that she would be resolved into a direction by now, and the fact that she isn't really bothers her. She doesn't want to leave, but she doesn't know how to live with me and the betrayal. I can't begin to undertand what she is going through, so I just sit there repentent and willing to offer up any support she needs or wants.
> 
> She is starting a new job in a couple of weeks, and I think the change of pace and scenery will be good for her. Something new to hopefully change her focus in her life a bit from everything that is bad to something that is good and hopeful.


has your wife said whether or not she wants to tell the families that you cheated? Have you asked her? I would simply ask her in counseling that if it would be more helpful to her if they knew, so she could then have some support. (You know both your families better than I do, so if that is possible, offer it) That might come with the task of you having to tell them all, but that is what happens. 

Time will tell. Very true on her part. I know your 3 months feels like 3 years, so imagine how it feels to her when you cheated for 3 actual years. That feels like your whole marriage to her.


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## Barnowl

Our whole family does know on both sides. These were extended grandparents from out of state. In the case that we stay together, my wife saw no reason to tell them what happened, and risk having them hate me forevor. If we don't make it, then obviously they will learn the truth. Otherwise, all the family knows and is supportive of us both on both sides. No one has passed judgement, and everyone has been great. We have a pretty amazing support structure in both of our families.

My cheating does feel like the entire marriage to her. She is re-living everything about dday the past few days. She keeps saying that she can't believe I did this to us, and that she doesn't know me, and she can't look at me the same ever again. 

It feels like it is all coming to an end in so many ways, yet in other ways it still feels hopeful. Hard to explain. I don't know what to do to offer her help. Nothing I can do makes her feel better. I don't know what to do.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> Our whole family does know on both sides. These were extended grandparents from out of state. In the case that we stay together, my wife saw no reason to tell them what happened, and risk having them hate me forevor. If we don't make it, then obviously they will learn the truth. Otherwise, all the family knows and is supportive of us both on both sides. No one has passed judgement, and everyone has been great. We have a pretty amazing support structure in both of our families.
> 
> My cheating does feel like the entire marriage to her. She is re-living everything about dday the past few days. She keeps saying that she can't believe I did this to us, and that she doesn't know me, and she can't look at me the same ever again.
> 
> It feels like it is all coming to an end in so many ways, yet in other ways it still feels hopeful. Hard to explain. I don't know what to do to offer her help. Nothing I can do makes her feel better. I don't know what to do.


 Okay, that makes sense then with the families. Mine personally don't know H cheated, just because my side would have insisted I leave, and if I didn't I doubt they would have offered me any support. I didn't want to have to choose, so I made the call on that one.

Her feelings truly are natural. She isn't sure how to cope with it, and all she can fathom right now is severe betrayal and disappointment. Be aware, that when she does this, you do need to accept that you did this and be sincere EVERY TIME.


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## Barnowl

She is still talking to me today which is a good sign. I understand her feelings are natural. I pulled the rug out from under her entire life! I can't even believe I did this. I think back now to "problems" in our marriage, and I want to go back in time and shake the man I used to be. Show him what he has to lose, and how selfish and stubborn he is being. It is insanity. I honestly cannot believe I did this horrible thing to the person I love.


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## happyman64

Barnowl said:


> She is still talking to me today which is a good sign. I understand her feelings are natural. I pulled the rug out from under her entire life! I can't even believe I did this. I think back now to "problems" in our marriage, and I want to go back in time and shake the man I used to be. Show him what he has to lose, and how selfish and stubborn he is being. It is insanity. I honestly cannot believe I did this horrible thing to the person I love.


But you did do this to her.

And stop saying you do not know what to do because you do.

You tell her I'm sorry until she tells you stop.

You ask her how can I comfort you.

Ask her what she needs from you.

And again, make her feel secure in the relationship as best you can.

At least you are still with her BarnOwl and she is still communicating with you.

One day at a time my man.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> She is still talking to me today which is a good sign. I understand her feelings are natural. I pulled the rug out from under her entire life! I can't even believe I did this. I think back now to "problems" in our marriage, and I want to go back in time and shake the man I used to be. Show him what he has to lose, and how selfish and stubborn he is being. It is insanity. I honestly cannot believe I did this horrible thing to the person I love.


The thing to remember is that you should feel that way ALL THE TIME not just when its convenient. Even in this thread, when things weren't going your way, you turned on her. Instantly. Go back and read some. The best thing you can do for your marriage, is learn how to correct that. Which I think you see that now for yourself, and I am sure you are learning to recognize it. But if you want her to put in the hard work to reconcile, that means you have to do the same.


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## Barnowl

^^^Yes, I absolutely have a tendency to turn inward. I am selfish, I am not very good at this R. I now recognize so many things about myself, and am slowly changing the way I am in many ways. At times when I would have walkred away before, I find myelf walking back into the room to confront what I have done. I have conflict avoidance tendencies, and I know that this not something I can avoid. Hitting it hard head on is the only way to get through this. 

One day at a time.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> ^^^Yes, I absolutely have a tendency to turn inward. I am selfish, I am not very good at this R. I now recognize so many things about myself, and am slowly changing the way I am in many ways. At times when I would have walkred away before, I find myelf walking back into the room to confront what I have done. I have conflict avoidance tendencies, and I know that this not something I can avoid. Hitting it hard head on is the only way to get through this.
> 
> One day at a time.


 Absolutely. One day at a time, and putting forth the effort to show her that your marriage is one worth fighting for. It can be a while before she is ready to confront her side to the shortcomings in the marriage. (But that does need to happen) I think sometimes the resistance you are meeting is her considering she might have played a part in not meeting your needs. 

Have you done the Love Languages with her Barnowl?? I think I asked this a while ago, but I can't remember if you two sat down and talked about how you feel love and how you show love. I think you should do it, but with the express purpose of saying " hey, I know my top language is Physical touch, but I also realize that maybe I am not showing you love in the ways that you recognize it. Come here, look over this with me and show me what your top two languages are"


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## Barnowl

I haven't done the loce language yet, but it is funny because I was thinking about that just last night. Good suggestion. Maybe I can bring that up in counseling tonight as a neutral place to propose that sort of thing for her to look into.


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## DawnD

Barnowl said:


> I haven't done the loce language yet, but it is funny because I was thinking about that just last night. Good suggestion. Maybe I can bring that up in counseling tonight as a neutral place to propose that sort of thing for her to look into.


 I want you to be very careful. The way you ask about it can be telling, and the last thing you want to do is go in there and push her again. Instead ask like this :

Barnowl: Counselor, I was noticing that when my wife is having a bad day, I don't know how to comfort her. I was hoping maybe she would look through the Five Love Languages with me so I know more of what she needs from me to feel secure. 


I, I, I. Not SHE should, she needs, she can't. Keep it about you, and about her helping you see what she needs. 

Barnowl: I have realized what my top needs are, and I want to know hers so I can start meeting them. 

Counselor may ask what your top needs are, which is where you express them ( if you know them). 

Please stay close to this script, if you play it wrong it will sound like "hurry up and get over it so you can start meeting my needs"


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## cpacan

Have you thought about the way you tell her you are sorry?
You need to be specific as to what you are sorry about and that you acknowledge her feelings. Books have been written on the subject.


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## Barnowl

All good ideas. I need a note book to take with me! I like the way you framed that Dawn. I might just get the book, and bring it up to her that way outside of counseling. Let her know that I have discovered what my love languages are, and that I would like her to look at the book so I can meet her love languages. I wonder if that would work. On a sidenote, I think I know her love languages, and they would be quality time, and acts of services are what I put her top two. I want to show her the book and see if she agrees with that or not...that would be very interesting.

cpacan - I tell her sorry in many capacities, and I try my best to never make it small or unapologetic sounding. Saying sorry is something that I do feel that I am doing ok on, but any suggestion would be appreciated, as I am trying to get this right on as many levels as possible.


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## DawnD

Read the situation Barn. If she looks like she is open to hearing you ask about what she needs, bring it up after/before. But I think counseling is the perfect environment to show you want to work on things, and that you are recognizing you may not be doing all she needs. It gives her that person there to help her feel out what she needs as well.


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## Barnowl

Good idea. Thank you all!


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## happyman64

Barnowl said:


> ^^^*Yes, I absolutely have a tendency to turn inward. I am selfish, I am not very good at this R. I now recognize so many things about myself, and am slowly changing the way I am in many ways. At times when I would have walkred away before, I find myelf walking back into the room to confront what I have done. I have conflict avoidance tendencies, and I know that this not something I can avoid. Hitting it hard head on is the only way to get through this. *
> 
> One day at a time.


So now that you see these qualities/tendencies in your personality maybe you can address them with your wife.

Tell her recognize you have that or you do this and that you are actively working on yourself to be a better person, a better man.

Communicate with her and let her know you want to improve yourself......


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## Barnowl

Counseling was interesting. We got into some of my wife's personal body image issues and how they have affected her and her life. We also talked a lot about trust, and giving trust, and the question of whether she will be able to trust me again. Counselor gave us some homework assignments to work on this week, and my wife set up an appointment to go to IC to talk about her own personal struggles that she will need to address regardless of whether we end up together or not. Overall it was a productive session I felt like. Hopefully this week will be a good one, and I can curb the manic panic behavior before it starts. Lots to work on...


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## Barnowl

Wow, bring on the weird. The past week and weekend have been strange. Week was going ok until Friday. We took the day off of work to hang out and spend time together. I don't know if I was acting "off" or something, but I could tell that my wife was rubbed the wrong way from the minute I came through her door. We spent a couple hours together, we went to lunch, and then everything kind of went to hell. She told me that I wasn't acting like I wanted to be there, and that she didn't need to spend time with me if I wasnt' going to be there 100%. I don't know what I was doing...but it really bugged her. We spent the rest of the day Friday and Saturday separate. She told me Saturday night that she wants the divorce and that she can't be with me. Then comes Sunday evening. I saw her Sunday morning when she dropped the dogs off, but she had zero interest in sticking around the house, or hanging out with me. I didn't see her or really talk to her all day Sunday, and then I get a text around dinner time that says I am welcome to come over and eat dinner with her. I take the offer and head over there. We have dinner watch a movie, and then out of nowhere the evening turns physical. She told me that she wants to be sex buddies now...because she is comfortable with me, but she can't be married to me anymore. These are the strangest words I have ever heard come out of that womans mouth... I just can't imagine our relationship coming to an end and this being what is left. She wouldn't have sex with me in our marriage, and now that is the only shred of a relationship she wants with me?? haha. Makes no sense. 

I don't really believe she wants only that. I think it is a bit of a defense mechanism for the time being while she is having a hard time working through things in her mind. At any rate, I would much rather see her than not see her, so I am just going to let things continue to roll. I told her that I am still going to be the same as I have been the past few months, and that I think she really wants more from me. Who knows. I have no idea whether anything is coming or going in our relationship right now. We both have IC sessions this week, and we are not going to couples counseling together this week. This will certainly be a topic to discuss....


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## Machiavelli

Some other guy is on her radar. For the moment, you're the sex beneficiary. If she can get the new guy inside, you'll be back on the outside. But until then, you're the proxy phuck. Just wait and see.


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## MarriedTex

No, no, Mach. 

It's not that. My hunch is that he's been putting her on the pedestal and trying to win her back for months following his mistake. He's been putting in effort after effort to woo her. She's gotten blase about him trying to reconcile and make things right.

So, Friday, he finally lets his guard down. Isn't the dutiful, "just let me do anything to hang around you" guy that he's been for the past three months. He finally shows indifference.

So the divorce talk is just a way for her to beat him to the punch. Hurt him before he hurts me (from the wife's viewpoint.) 

Sure, there is the chance she could be cake-eating, keeping OP on the line while she lines up whether she wants to hang with him or another guy. But I don't think that's the case. If it were me, I'd continue to bed her under the stated pretenses and then you work in your emotional support of her over time.

In short, you're dating all over again. You're getting the no-commitment sex that guys want. You give her some escalating level of emotional support etc., and you could be on your way to a true reconciliation.

At the end of the day, though, you're both playing stupid emotional mind games. It would be a lot easier to just talk it out. But, failing that, there are some positives going on here.


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## Machiavelli

MarriedTex said:


> Sure, there is the chance she could be cake-eating, keeping OP on the line while she lines up whether she wants to hang with him or another guy. But I don't think that's the case. If it were me, I'd continue to bed her under the stated pretenses and then you work in your emotional support of her over time..


*IF* there is no new guy, this is the right play. Bang the heck out of her and let her brain chemistry do the rest.


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## Barnowl

It is always amazing to me to go back and re-read things I have written and reflect on how manic and panicky I must have been to write those words. I went to IC last night and talked about the sex buddies thing (which we really aren't doing...if anything we are in some sort of subconcious R), and generally where we are in our relationship. I feel confident that my current actions of acting like a good husband, and working on me are my best bet to win her back. We have spent each night together watching movies and making dinner together. It has been good for the most part, but she isn't sleeping well and I think it is becoming draining for her.

I am putting together a letter for her trying to synthesize my thoughts and feelings, and how much I appreciate her sticking by my side through all of this. I am hoping it is something that she can read int he low times and help make her feel better. At least that is what I would like it to do for her...who knows if she will gain any comfort from it.

I actually feel really good about where I am in life. I feel good not keeping secrets. Knowing that I am not lying to her. Knowing that I am being faithful. I am going to keep being a nice attentive husband. Keep the wedding ring on, and try not to focus on or worry about when she is going to divorce me. I think that is all I can really do right now.


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## happyman64

BarnOwl

I think a letter would be a good idea.

Especially if you think her emotions are being drained.

A few suggestions though:

Do not mention Divorce in the letter.

Tell her how much you appreciate being able to honest with her.

Thank her for being open and honest with you no matter how painful it is.

And tell her again how sorry you are for causing her pain and that no matter what the outcome of your Relationship you look forward to healing that pain and having a much better Relationship in the future.

Keep it positive Barn Owl.


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## Barnowl

Thanks HM64. The letter will be very positive. Very supportive. I am going to talk about her new job and her schooling and how proud I am of her for doing these things. Very appreciative of her and her time that she has spent with me. I want it to be as uplifting as possible. Something that tells her what my intentions are, and that I will be here for her no matter what happens in the future.


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## happyman64

That is the correct approach BO.


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## Acabado

Make that letter the one she needs to read everytime she feels low about her self and the future. A letter she can carry with herself.
Build her up, tell her you love her and what you love about her (rather what she makes you feel).


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## Barnowl

It has been nearly a month since my last update...things are still moving along. We have had some of the best times and the worst times in the past few weeks. Just got back from another extended weekend away that went really well, even with a few hiccups and sad moments. My wife is still struggling to come to terms with the betrayal, and we haven't landed ourselves in a full R, but we are not divorced either. Somewhat of a limbo state, but I feel like it is a fairly stable one. I had to leave TAM for a while because I was becoming paraniod about every little thing of her behavior after reading some of the threads. I will try to update this thread with progress, but I find myself reading into things too much and fixating when I am here a lot. Thank you all for the support. I still don't know where we will land, but we are at least moving...right now that is all I can ask for.


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## DawnD

Glad to hear it is still going somewhat well Barnowl. Good luck!


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## happyman64

Barnowl

Congrats! I give you and your wife credit for sticking it out and at least trying when it is so easy to walk away sometimes.

Do not get paranoid. It can easily happen.

Good Luck to both of you.

HM64


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## Vanguard

survivorwife said:


> Are you REALLY being truthful here? You cheated, she wants to "be on her own". Maybe have some time without you to think about what she wants? So, she inconveniences herself by arranging to move out of her own home instead of YOU, the cheater moving out?
> 
> You see, my husband is a cheater. And he refused to leave the marital home. I wanted to be alone. To think. To get away from him. So, I had to leave in order to find peace within myself. If he had not refused to leave, I would have more than happy to stay in my own home, since I did nothing wrong.
> 
> Care to elaborate some more to convince me that this is truly what SHE wants, and there was not a bit of territorial dominance at play?


I guess now, seeing as he and his wife have made substantial progress, you must feel a bit awkward. Projecting yourself and your own circumstances on to others' doesn't help you and it certainly doesn't help them.


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## LookingForTheSun

Barnowl - that is good news. You are still not that far out from DD in the grand scheme of things, so your progress is good and hopefull. Stay positive and be thankful for what you do have. That will carry you from one day to the next.


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## Acabado

You are enjoying each other company. You are bonding. She's there. Very present. It's good process. Are you in a rush to call it "reconciliation"? F0ck labels. You are reconciliating already. Every passing day.


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