# So my spouse no longer wants to sleep with me ...



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

So we see an endless parade of posts with the same fundamental issue - my spouse has lost interest with sex. He's masturbating to porn. She's reading romance novels but has no time for actual romance. They're just not interested.

As a rule, the Team here gives them a shoulder to cry on and a ton of reasons why their partner is pile of human shyte.

I don't really excel at the whole "shoulder to cry on" industry, but what doesn't get enough attention is a good hard look in the mirror. Just because you have genitalia doesn't mean that your spouse is going to be stepping all over theirs to get to yours. 

Are you a good lover? Do you, within the bounds of your personal integrity and limitations, go out of your way to make your spouse want to come back for more? Is your technique poor? Personal hygiene spotty? Enthusiasm lacking? To put none-too-fine a point on it, are you the problem? A loving spouse might be mature enough to tell you this, but they might not want to hurt your feelings either. 

Perhaps you are doing all that you can, but the two of you just do not agree on what is required to remain engaged and happy. Sexual incompatibility is real, but so is sexual laziness and lackluster effort. An uninterested partner might just have good reason to have lost that lovin' feeling.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I'm confused. 😳

Is this just an open thread for people to discuss their experiences based on your title? Or has your wife said that she doesn't want to sleep with you anymore?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

minimalME said:


> I'm confused. 😳
> 
> Is this just an open thread for people to discuss their experiences based on your title? Or has your wife said that she doesn't want to sleep with you anymore?


If my wife were to post here today, it would likely be something along the lines of "my husband is no longer much interested in sex". I know exactly why - so no, I am not looking for help here.

She would get a ton of advice, little of which would be accurate. I don't have low T. I'm not a porn addict, don't abuse alcohol, I'm not in a PA or EA. My lack of interest, for better or worse, is a direct result of who we are as sexual creatures. When the sex dries up, the first question you should ask yourself is "what is my part in this problem", before you ask "how can I fix my broken spouse".

Something like removing the 12" dildo from your own eye before ..., oh, you get the idea.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Okay.

When I first read the title and saw that it was you, I felt so bad! I thought maybe things had escalated. But more of the same, yes?

As for myself, I was in a sexless marriage for 20 years. And although I agree with you, that personal responsibility is very important, I've also realized that rehashing the past over and over again on this forum isn't good for me. 

I'd rather move on - which is hard enough.

So, now that I know you're okay, I'll exit your thread. 😬😂


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

minimalME said:


> Okay.
> 
> When I first read the title and saw that it was you, I felt so bad! I thought maybe things had escalated. But more of the same, yes?
> 
> ...


Well, thanks for participating. I wasn't really howling at the moon here. I am at peace with my own situation and the role I play in it - more so than at any time in the last 30 years. This is not me rehashing the past. 

There are just so many of these threads ... this is just a reminder to the folks who do want to solve this problem but do not want to point the finger in the place it sometimes most desperately needs to be pointed. 

Just because you want sex does not mean anyone else on the planet wants sex with you. You (in part) have to earn that right. As Dan Savage used to say, any partner who is not good, giving, and game should expect to get returned to the manufacturer as defective.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I agree with you Cletus. The first thing to check if you’re the sexual pursuer is if you’re unattractive or have unattractive behaviors because those are the things you control directly.

However you can arrive at a point there where you’ve done your best effort and still nothing. In that case the partner needs to start trying (if they care). If not then well at least you know where you stand.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

What if your wife was the one looking to return you to the manufacturer as defective? It seems she is always game and enjoys it tremendously.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> I agree with you Cletus. The first thing to check if you’re the sexual pursuer is if you’re unattractive or have unattractive behaviors because those are the things you control directly.
> 
> However you can arrive at a point there where you’ve done your best effort and still nothing. In that case the partner needs to start trying (if they care). If not then well at least you know where you stand.


Given the "aww, hon, I feel for your situation" nature of this forum, it's advice I fully understand people feel is too mean or harsh for someone hurting. Which is partly why I brought it up in a separate thread divorced <chuckle> from anyone's real world situation. I don't want to be labeled a monster!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> So we see an endless parade of posts with the same fundamental issue - my spouse has lost interest with sex. He's masturbating to porn. She's reading romance novels but has no time for actual romance. They're just not interested.
> 
> As a rule, the Team here gives them a shoulder to cry on and a ton of reasons why their partner is pile of human shyte.
> 
> ...


I agree...in VERY FEW cases.

Most of the people who post about this issue here were very happy with the sex in the early part of their relationships and could tell their partners were as well, and MANY of them have done lots of work on trying to examine themselves and the possibility that THEY are creating the issue and killing the desire in their partners.

What I've seen with most of the people who post this, and actually stick around, the answers are most likely some type of affair or interest going to another person, porn and masturbation addiction for men, or complete disinterest for women (I can never understand why).

I also believe that IF there is a problem for the refusing partner, THEY NEED TO SPEAK UP. There are plenty of ways to discuss a problem someone has that's killing desire without hurting feelings. To believe that simply refusing forever, without giving a clue as to why, is somehow less hurtful than just SAYING what the problem is so it can be worked with, is childish and cowardly...and just as much to blame for the problem as the person who IS the problem...and part of the selfishness of refusing.

Most of my advice to people in this situation (after being a shoulder to cry on for a little bit) is LEAVE. I don't really think there is ever much you can do to change a selfish, uncaring partner -- if someone doesn't care about meeting your needs, and does everything they can to avoid working with you about those needs, you don't really have a loving relationship, just the shadow of one.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> What if your wife was the one looking to return you to the manufacturer as defective? It seems she is always game and enjoys it tremendously.


Fair game. But it would not be for my lack of trying. That's the rub - for those for whom sex is not that important, breaking up a marriage over it seems so over-the-top.

No one emphasizes the reality of sexual incompatibility here more than I do.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> I don't want to be labeled a monster!


Your avatar kind of looks like a monster though...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Fair game. But it would not be for my lack of trying. That's the rub - for those for whom sex is not that important, breaking up a marriage over it seems so over-the-top.


And for those for whom sex IS VERY important...living without it in a committed relationship is impossible (and even ridiculous). Sex is the only reason for me to commit at all!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Fair game. But it would not be for my lack of trying. That's the rub - for those for whom sex is not that important, breaking up a marriage over it seems so over-the-top.
> 
> No one emphasizes the reality of sexual incompatibility here more than I do.


You don't have to break up the marriage. It probably wouldn't hurt to tell her that you find sex boring as in you don't want to eat PB&J sandwiches every day for the rest of your life.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Most of my advice to people in this situation (after being a shoulder to cry on for a little bit) is LEAVE. I don't really think there is ever much you can do to change a selfish, uncaring partner -- if someone doesn't care about meeting your needs, and does everything they can to avoid working with you about those needs, you don't really have a loving relationship, just the shadow of one.


As soon as a spouse loses interest in sex, then get the "Selfish" label affixed faster than if they were a Dole banana. 

Losing interest in your partner is not an inherently selfish act. Having your partner lose interest and not questioning if you are the problem is. 

This is not a blanket indictment against everyone who comes here with that problem - but it should be one of the first things we ask someone to evaluate. 

When was the last time you asked someone if they were bad in bed and they said "yes"? This isn't Lake Wobegon.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> You don't have to break up the marriage. It probably wouldn't hurt to tell her that you find sex boring as in you don't want to eat PB&J sandwiches every day for the rest of your life.


That conversation has been had. We have our compromise.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Your avatar kind of looks like a monster though...


That's the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Look him up!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> And for those for whom sex IS VERY important...living without it in a committed relationship is impossible (and even ridiculous). Sex is the only reason for me to commit at all!


Yeah it took me a while to figure out but eventually I did. I had to quit a lot of things along the way and get older to gain the wisdom, perspective, and to be honest flexibility with my time in order to figure it out.

Infrequent and/or bad sex in a marriage is something I don’t want to be a part of.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Cletus










Well said--bravo my friend! Now I'm not suggesting a "blame the victim" scenario here, but rather taking a moment to take a look at the man in the mirror before you go off blaming your spouse...well it can be pretty eye-opening.

I personally think of it as dating forever. Remember when you were dating the person who became your spouse? You couldn't WAIT to talk to them. You made the effort to look good when they were around. You made the effort to smell good too! You paid attention to them and came up with ideas of things to do. You made witty jokes and shared your deep thoughts and feelings. Soooo...just take a minute and ask yourself if you still do all that stuff. Are you someone you'd date? Do you treat them in a kind and considerate way so that they look forward to coming home? Do you speak to them with love and respect? I mean, seriously, the first step of sexual foreplay is liking the person with whom you want to become sexual! So if you don't even like your spouse--or if you act like you don't or smell like you don't (haha)--then at least consider the possibility that maybe ya gotta step-up your game!

Now as to the "being bad in bed" thing--that is so open to interpretation it's not funny. I mean, I may think I'm a sexual dynamo because I'm medium drive and my partner is lower drive...and in reality I might be responsive but just want it more or maybe I'm a horrible kisser. How would anyone know if they are "bad in bed" without someone external telling them so? Also, what if one thinks "good in bed = opening eyes and lights on" and the other thinks "good in bed = catwoman outfit and a riding crop"? I mean--that's just too wide a gap to negotiate. 

But what I will say on this regard is this: instead of thinking of yourself and what YOU prefer, is your sex life a MUTUAL thing and does it meet what your spouse prefers? To me, that's the question. If both of you decide together what TO DO and what NOT to do...and both of you seem reasonably satisfied with your mutual sex life, then whether you're good in bed or not, things are alright. On the other hand, if either one of you kind forces the other to do things they find uncomfortable or don't want to do, or if either one of you does things you agreed NOT to do or doesn't do thing you agreed TO do...or if either one of you is not reasonably satisfied (and to me that is defined as "each gives and receives in a way they find gratifying")...in that calse then things are not alright! Period.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> How would anyone know if they are "bad in bed" without someone external telling them so? Also, what if one thinks "good in bed = opening eyes and lights on" and the other thinks "good in bed = catwoman outfit and a riding crop"? I mean--that's just too wide a gap to negotiate.


Mreow. Although, the costume alone does not maketh the kitty.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

As someone who was in a sexless marriage for over a decade, that was the first question I asked. What happens when your spouse is conflict-avoidant, dishonest or doesn't want to hurt your feelings because they want everything else you provide?

What if you love them and decide you can live without sex b/c you think they're worth it? 

Many people won't completely bare their souls when they come here for help. I haven't read your story elsewhere, but you didn't discuss it here. 

I've given up trying to understand why people do the things they do any more and just tried to understand my own motives. At the end of the day, no communication = no progress.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Cletus said:


> As soon as a spouse loses interest in sex, then get the "Selfish" label affixed faster than if they were a Dole banana.
> 
> Losing interest in your partner is not an inherently selfish act. Having your partner lose interest and not questioning if you are the problem is.
> 
> ...


Interesting point. I can't count the number of tines I've seen a guy come here complaining that his wife hardly ever wants sex but somehow manages to orgasm 15 times during the one hour a month they have it.

That's never passed the sniff test in my world. If I'm having great sex, which I currently am, I'm going to want more...which I do.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting point. I can't count the number of tines I've seen a guy come here complaining that his wife hardly ever wants sex but somehow manages to orgasm 15 times during the one hour a month they have it.
> 
> That's never passed the sniff test in my world. If I'm having great sex, which I currently am, I'm going to want more...which I do.


The orgasm gap is an obvious point of attack for any man trying to get sorted.

It probably doesn’t help that some women will not communicate if their partner is bad and even worse will fake it.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

TXTrini said:


> As someone who was in a sexless marriage for over a decade, that was the first question I asked. What happens when your spouse is conflict-avoidant, dishonest or doesn't want to hurt your feelings because they want everything else you provide?
> 
> What if you love them and decide you can live without sex b/c you think they're worth it?
> 
> ...


Here! Here! 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> That's the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Look him up!


So you kind of labeled YOURSELF a monster then...!!!! Lol!


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> As soon as a spouse loses interest in sex, then get the "Selfish" label affixed faster than if they were a Dole banana.
> 
> Losing interest in your partner is not an inherently selfish act. Having your partner lose interest and not questioning if you are the problem is.
> 
> ...


I would also say, losing interest in your partner sexually and then trying to hide it or blame-shift or gaslight your partner about your feelings, when you know they want to connect sexually with you and fix the problem, IS absolutely selfish.

Knowing your partner has a need for sex and sexual expression, and refusing to address any issues you have with that, IS inherently selfish in MY world.

Because if the banana IS a Dole, the sticker deserves to be slapped on.

I would like to add, just for clarity, I also call out ANY uncaring behavior to someone's partner as selfish, whether it's about sex or not. It's NOT about the sex, it's about the complete disregard for your partner's needs and wants that is selfish.

Successfully loving relationships have partners who's love, desire, and care for eachother are RECIPROCAL, and not one-sided...when it comes to sex or any other issue they face.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> I would also say, losing interest in your partner sexually and then trying to hide it or blame-shift or gaslight your partner about your feelings, when you know they want to connect sexually with you and fix the problem, IS absolutely selfish.
> 
> Knowing your partner has a need for sex and sexual expression, and refusing to address any issues you have with that, IS inherently selfish in MY world.


I agree, but here's the problem....

How does a guy tell a woman she's too out of shape or overweight and that's the reason a guy isn't attracted sexually? Or maybe she isn't groomed or doesn't....er.... smell fresh?? Or what if a woman can't be satisfied by a guys small dyck? how does she go about dealing with that mine field???

i mean, how would you(as a woman) react to that revelation? Would you appreciate the honesty, and inspire you or would it crush your spirit and cause you to completely turn on the guy? I'm not suggesting anything, just curious of your reaction, if this was hypothetically something you had to deal with?  

I mean, people can talk about transparency until they are blue in the face, sometimes, especially in these areas, people just can't handle the truth....So it winds up just becoming the elephant in the room no one wants to recognize...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hamadryad said:


> I agree, but here's the problem....
> 
> How does a guy tell a woman she's too out of shape or overweight and that's the reason a guy isn't attracted sexually? Or maybe she isn't groomed or doesn't....er.... smell fresh?? Or what if a woman can't be satisfied by a guys small dyck? how does she go about dealing with that mine field???
> 
> ...


@hamadryad 

First...cool name! The spirit of a tree, huh? Kind of like P'au Zotoh Zhaan of Farscape (She's a living plant being).? 

Second...back to the topic at hand. Honestly this is the issue, isn't it? Because in real life, this is part of why some people become sexually unattracted: out of shape, overweight, smelly, hairy, can't even feel your ****, cum too soon, never ever cum no matter what, etc. How DO you negotiate that mine field?

Here's the thing: people often say, "Oh I wish they had just told me the truth--I could have handled that so much better than the lies!" Yet the funny thing is, when many people are told a truth that is hard to hear--especially one that is VERY hard to hear like "you smell and it turns me off" they react in a way that teaches their spouse that they are NOT SAFE telling the truth!!! And if your spouse learns that enough times, guess what? They will lie to you. 

That's why when someone tells you a truth, even (maybe especially) when it's a hard truth to hear, it is SO IMPORTANT to control yourself. I have a personal rule to which I hold myself. If someone tells me the truth--something hurtful--I'll ask them, "Is what you're saying to me how to truly feel (or what you truly think)?" If they answer yes, I don't care if it cut me TO THE QUICK, my answer is "Thank you for being honest with me. I will admit that one hurts. So may I please have some time to think about what you've said?" 

When someone hears something hurtful, chances are very good they'll become defensive--probably feel like defending themselves or explaining. But if, instead of getting angry and defensive, we took that step of taking time, taking a breath, (okay...crying a little), and then after the initial reaction really considered "Could it be that what they said is true?" I suspect we could see their point of view and say "Huh, maybe I have slacked a little. I could do XYZ to step it up a bit."


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

Like LisaDiane also mentioned above - relationships do start with lots of passion and all indications of sexual compatibility, which gradually taper off or sometimes quite abruptly stop (for example, after the birth of the baby in my case). Then the rejected partner starts a process of self-flagellation, looking for the reason for rejection entirely within themselves. Am I too fat? Am I somewhat boring? Do I give oral like a goddess? Do I contribute enough to his good mood? Do I ...? Did I ...? Etcetera.
What drives me crazy is the unwillingness of the changed partner to admit the truth, whatever it is - too much porn, lack of interest, erectile issues, another person rather than gaslight you by insisting that everything is alright, exactly like it used to be, and that it's all in your head. Because it's not. 
My husband changed overnight after I gave birth to our baby. I had a C-section, so nothing has changed in my nether regions, if you see what I mean. I didn't put on much weight and whatever kilos I gained I managed to shed off. I shower and get waxed regularly. I smell of expensive perfumes.
I'll never forget the beginning of the end of his sexual interest. It coincided with my post partum depression. I felt ugly and disgusting without objectively looking like this. I felt intruding and crazy. We had humiliating fights, after which he would demonstrate how wrong I was by taking me directly to the bedroom. Then another dry period, another quarrel, him saying I was to blame because of the incessant rows, which killed his desire.
Two years passed like that. I am tired out of my mind. I have always believed that love and especially sex come naturally - you don't have to fight for them, you don't have to justify why you need them. 
In my previous relationships, I was the one who wasn't so interested in sex, always pursued, always desired by my men. Now I get attention and general care, but sex happens only on Saturday, and if I haven't angered him somehow before that. I feel trapped and with crushed self-esteem.
Before you ask - in the beginning we used to do it every day, sometimes even twice a day. This situation lasted for a year. And then things started going south.
You tell me - how have I changed? How have I brought it all about?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

At the end of the day, I think it's just hard over time for many couples that have been together for a long time to keep that fire going...You get too "familiar" with that individual, you get too comfortable, plus for some people sex just isn't something that goes hand in hand with difficult financial situations, household chores,, kids, problematic in laws, etc...

Many people that have divorced, say in their 40's-60's, where kids are grown and on their own, they are more financially stable, are no longer doing soccer games and no longer keeping up with the Jones' often report that the sex with the new partners is awesome and more frequent than they ever have in their lives...

For those married couples that have somehow managed to keep it going after all these years and difficulties,, hats off to them...Its really not easy....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> So we see an endless parade of posts with the same fundamental issue - my spouse has lost interest with sex. He's masturbating to porn. She's reading romance novels but has no time for actual romance. They're just not interested.
> 
> As a rule, the Team here gives them a shoulder to cry on and a ton of reasons why their partner is pile of human shyte.
> 
> ...


I agree with your general principle that one should first take a good hard look in the mirror. 

Sure, if someone has gained 50-100lbs or lost their job 2 years ago and haven’t lifted a finger to find a new one whilst play video games all day or spanking to porn all the time or only take a shower every other Tuesday whether you need it or not.

But if none of that is truly applicable?

What if you have acted in good faith and have put forth honest effort for 25 years? 

No matter how much you workout or advance in your career or learn sexual techniques, you can’t turn back 25 years. 

When I got married, I wore 32 inch waist jeans. Today 25 years later I wear 34 (some of which are a little loose). Did those 2 inches kill my sex life?

I had thinning hair when I married, today I’m shaved bald, that kill it for me? (Possible, I admit) 

Sexual techniques?? I have A LOT more tools in my sexual toolbox and tricks up my sleeve today than I did back when we were having wild monkey sex day and night. 
(Here’s the thing about sexual skill and technique, you get to employ them when someone is stiffening up and squirming away from you and walking away from you for the umpteenth time)

People change over the course of their lives. No one can be the same after 25 years. 

And if someone does remain the same after 25 years, is that even MORE unattractive?


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> @hamadryad
> 
> First...cool name! The spirit of a tree, huh? Kind of like P'au Zotoh Zhaan of Farscape (She's a living plant being).?
> 
> ...


Men are programmed since they were little boys that you can't hurt a girl's feelings, can't say this to them, can't say that to them, blah blah....You know the old deal, when a woman asks a guy "does this outfit make me look fat" situation....right??

So...what does a guy do that has spent his whole life holding doors and walking on eggshells, that now he has to be completely honest, knowing that whatever he says will probably at the very least hurt her feelings, and could very well be worse....way worse....and say it about the most intimate part of their marriage??

.They won't do anything about it...They keep quiet and say nothing, but then wind up stewing for years over it...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> I agree, but here's the problem....
> 
> How does a guy tell a woman she's too out of shape or overweight and that's the reason a guy isn't attracted sexually? Or maybe she isn't groomed or doesn't....er.... smell fresh?? Or what if a woman can't be satisfied by a guys small dyck? how does she go about dealing with that mine field???
> 
> ...


I get what you are saying...and believe me, I've examined my feelings about handling honesty for years, and not just about sex or my physical body, but also about my personality and other things I might do that are problems for my partner (when I cared what he thought and wanted to work things out).

For ME personally, the answer is it would do both -- it WOULD hurt to have had him point to something specific about ME that turned him off, but I would ALWAYS appreciate the honesty, ESPECIALLY if it was something I could DO something to change and fix!!!!

The problem is, HE NEVER SAID IT WAS ANYTHING, even though I asked directly many many times, and offered many many changes. So I spent the whole time (and it STILL haunts me now) thinking there was some phantom flaw in ME that was a huge turn off to him (and could possibly be for other men)...but never getting a straight answer or clear direction caused my mind to go down a rabbit hole of insecurity. How in the world is THAT better...?? Instead of one or two "flaws" he might have been afraid to tell me about, he instead left me worrying about 100 things that could be wrong with me...

THAT is WORSE. YES, I'd rather have the honesty.

Now the flip side of that is, IF he had pointed out something about me that I couldn't change, or if he was afraid to tell me something because his desire was never coming back...well, as my PARTNER who I've committed to, he still had a responsibility to either TELL me what that was, so we could find a way to work through it, OR to get the fvck out and let me find someone else who would love and desire EVERYTHING about ME, since HE didn't anymore.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Cletus said:


> So we see an endless parade of posts with the same fundamental issue - my spouse has lost interest with sex. He's masturbating to porn. She's reading romance novels but has no time for actual romance. They're just not interested.
> 
> As a rule, the Team here gives them a shoulder to cry on and a ton of reasons why their partner is pile of human shyte.
> 
> ...


When you overanalyze sex, that spontaneity sputters and then lays, like a board, bored and stiff.

Males, lose the stuff, mostly the stiff.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

SunCMars said:


> When you overanalyze sex, that spontaneity sputters and then lays, like a board, bored and stiff.
> 
> Males, lose the stuff, mostly the stiff.


Speak for yourself.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Your avatar kind of looks like a monster though...


One's Avatar is a statement.

I reminded him about his choice, light years ago.

Tis' his _Rohrsach Test _for the rest of us to reveal our innermost fears.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

hamadryad said:


> Men are programmed since they were little boys that you can't hurt a girl's feelings, can't say this to them, can't say that to them, blah blah....You know the old deal, when a woman asks a guy "does this outfit make me look fat" situation....right??
> 
> So...what does a guy do that has spent his whole life holding doors and walking on eggshells, that now he has to be completely honest, knowing that whatever he says will probably at the very least hurt her feelings, and could very well be worse....way worse....and say it about the most intimate part of their marriage??
> 
> .They won't do anything about it...They keep quiet and say nothing, but then wind up stewing for years over it...


Well, as far as this particular scenario goes, I've only seen it RARELY posted on here as an issue for anyone. 

In fact, I've read MANY posts about people who have partners who have lost desire for them even though they say they are working out and looking great. And have interest in them from other people...just not from their partners.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Sfort said:


> Speak for yourself.


I cannot!

I am not ever unity, nor alone!

We are legion.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> As someone who was in a sexless marriage for over a decade, that was the first question I asked. *What happens when your spouse is conflict-avoidant, dishonest or doesn't want to hurt your feelings because they want everything else you provide?*


For me it was this one... But it was only 5 years into the marriage + 2 kids. I don't think my wife was "dishonest"... definitely "conflict-avoidant" and with her mental issues (which she hid very well). I guess it was my fault for not finding a very well paid job soon after moving to a foreign country...  But then, with no communication I lost my patience. I gave up and became a horrible man. So, yes, I played a big part and I failed to look in the mirror. I was very good at blaming other people. And now it's too late.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> The orgasm gap is an obvious point of attack for any man trying to get sorted.
> 
> It probably doesn’t help that some women will not communicate if their partner is bad and even worse will fake it.


Yeah....faking is deeply dishonest. It's a difficult topic to discuss because some guys are not receptive, and we're raised to spare a guy's ego.

And many women don't actually know what they need. But if you have to then admit that you faked all these orgasms you create a real trust issue...much better to be honest.

I've been with exactly 3 men in the past 23 years (not many before that)....my 2 husbands and my current bf and have never faked with any of them. Do I orgasm all the time? No, but women don't have the same biological need to do it that men do. I quite enjoy every round of sex I have when I O or not and I appreciate not feeling pressured to do so.

But I have to think that women who have all these O's are going to want somewhat regular sex, so I find it highly suspect that these women only want sex once every 3 months but have all these orgasms that one time. It's statistically unlikely anyway.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

LisaDiane said:


> Well, as far as this particular scenario goes, I've only seen it RARELY posted on here as an issue for anyone.
> 
> In fact, I've read MANY posts about people who have partners who have lost desire for them even though they say they are working out and looking great. And have interest in them from other people...just not from their partners.


I agree.

Not all those initial felt fires remain ever hot.

Many, settle in as warm.

A good percentage cool, some freeze over.

Cletus seems to want the work-through, not the work-around. 

He wants a solution, not a bandaid.

Maybe, just maybe, this is his way of letting us know his marriage no longer has meaning and that he will soon be available.

And, along the way, given us the reason.

So, as not to be the Cad who ditched his wife.

Plus, it shows a warmer side to him, maybe one, not yet revealed.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> But I have to think that women who have all these O's are going to want somewhat regular sex, so I find it highly suspect that these women only want sex once every 3 months but have all these orgasms that one time. It's statistically unlikely anyway.


While I agree with your logic, I cannot agree with your conclusion. It's one of the most baffling parts of life. How can multiple-orgasmic women not crave sex? It happens, and it is very real.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Men and women are so much alike, yet so different.

Culture and upbringing accounts for much of this difference, maybe 80 %.

The biggest difference is motherhood. 

That sexual response to stimuli is very much a man's bailiwick. Even that is variable. Men's sexuality varies over time as do women's.

Each decade of life sees it waxing and waning, more so, it seems, in women?

Men's sexuality is said to be a steady decline. While this is true, even that notion has variation.

Tis' mostly hormones, but also ones other general health states, to include mental health...for sure.

Sexual abuse can bring down the curtain.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Sfort said:


> While I agree with your logic, I cannot agree with your conclusion. It's one of the most baffling parts of life. How can multiple-orgasmic women not crave sex? It happens, and it is very real.


Agreed. When there are real and underlying trust issues or other issues in the relationship, you may crave sex but if you are one of those people who feels a need for real intimacy for someone you have sex with, you might not want to have sex if there are underlying issues and resentment between you and your partner.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

joannacroc said:


> Agreed. When there are real and underlying trust issues or other issues in the relationship, you may crave sex but if you are one of those people who feels a need for real intimacy for someone you have sex with, you might not want to have sex if there are underlying issues and resentment between you and your partner.


Maybe I don't get it because I'm an all or nothing type this way. If I don't trust a guy or I resent him I don't want intimacy at all so I'm certainly not having an orgasm with him.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The other thing to consider is habit. And, what it is that reduces stress.

Sexual release eases men's stress levels.

The same goes for most woman who do elicit an orgasm.

For those that don't, that quandary arises. Namely, is it worth my time?

We believe....

The longer a woman goes untouched, the more that becomes the norm.

Then comes...
It is my body. I choose what to do with it.

While true, that invites solitude.

Oh my! 

Such a poor use of natural resources.

Umm.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe I don't get it because I'm an all or nothing type this way. If I don't trust a guy or I resent him I don't want intimacy at all so I'm certainly not having an orgasm with him.


Exactly. We're actually saying the same thing. For me, it's indications that someone is being dishonest or hiding something it's like a chill down the spine and when you feel in flight or fight mode you're not going to want to be intimate with anyone.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Yeah....faking is deeply dishonest. It's a difficult topic to discuss because some guys are not receptive, and we're raised to spare a guy's ego.
> 
> And many women don't actually know what they need. But if you have to then admit that you faked all these orgasms you create a real trust issue...much better to be honest.
> 
> ...


In my journey trying to get frequency up it was an obvious attack vector. It seems logical right, but it’s not that simple sadly at least not with my wife.

She was able to have one reliably PIV only if she was on top doing the work and I could last long enough. So I worked on that first. Read the literature in medical journals on various treatments and picked a couple. I am still on 150mg St. John’s Wort 3x a day based on a paper I read and then I have the go to silver bullet of topical spray when needed. So far I have only used it a couple times because it works too well.

She doesn’t want to be on top every time for obvious reasons. So I started working on my manual game in other positions and that was mixed success and is still a work in progress.

Toys (vibrator) worked 100%. So guaranteed incorporated with PIV she will have one and depending on position and use of props (wedge) her reaction can be amazing to the point where I’m jealous.

So even with that, guaranteed crazy eye rolling loud 30+ second display going she still does not try for one every time. And we’re talking not a lot of time here after foreplay like < 5 minutes.

Orgasm gap closed completely and yet yesterday was going like a champ and she switched to a position that she described as “kinda hot” but I knew it wasn’t going to do it.

So at least with her there is still a big difference. With that said I do think that finding reliable ways to get her there if she wants to has improved things a lot.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

In Absentia said:


> For me it was this one... But it was only 5 years into the marriage + 2 kids. I don't think my wife was "dishonest"... definitely "conflict-avoidant" and with her mental issues (which she hid very well). I guess it was my fault for not finding a very well paid job soon after moving to a foreign country...  But then, with no communication I lost my patience. I gave up and became a horrible man. So, yes, I played a big part and I failed to look in the mirror. I was very good at blaming other people. And now it's too late.


Aye.

It is too late with her.

It may not be too late with another. 

Yes, while your youthful vigor has sunset, your mind can still flap its way to a kinder, a better paradise.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

joannacroc said:


> Exactly. We're actually saying the same thing. For me, it's indications that someone is being dishonest or hiding something it's like a chill down the spine and when you feel in flight or fight mode you're not going to want to be intimate with anyone.


Such that mental inertia.

The painful past, yet owns you.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Will we ever find happiness?

Few do. 
And it's fleeting.

When happiness is found, another hole in your life mischievously opens up.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> As someone who was in a sexless marriage for over a decade, that was the first question I asked. *What happens when your spouse is conflict-avoidant, dishonest or doesn't want to hurt your feelings because they want everything else you provide?*
> 
> What if you love them and decide you can live without sex b/c you think they're worth it?


THIS!!!!!!

THIS is what seems to be the basic problem that is the common thread throughout most sexless relationships, I believe. At least, for the situations I've seen posted on here.

One partner decides, or "loses", their sexual desire for their partner, and then uses every method they can come up with to try and force the partner who still wants a sexual relationship to be more like THEM...ie: not want sex.

There is nothing loving or caring going on in the refusing partner's mind, they are solely focused on only their own wants, needs, desires, and are perfectly willing to confuse, hurt, and undermine their desiring partner to get what they want - a life without sex.

Again, it's NOT ALL sexless relationships that are like this...but for the most part, the few I know of personally and most that I've read about on here, absolutely were.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that if the sex has slacked off, then the only potential source of problems they need to consider is sex. So, we hear that 'he/she orgasms every time' so there can't be any legitimate reason for not wanting lots of sex. And I think that can sometimes rather miss the point.

Think of it like the Love Languages. If your LL is acts of service, you're going to tend to perform acts of service for your partner. But if that's not their LL, then they aren't going to necessarily feel loved by you doing that. Your partner might have gifts as their LL. But if that's not your LL, you might not necessarily feel loved when they're giving you gifts. And insisting that either of you _should_ feel loved by the other's giving _in their own LL_, is a fools errand. If your partner only ever expresses love for you in their own LL, and that's not your thing, then maybe you find it harder and harder to maintain that romantic connection. Because your actual needs are going unmet. For people who count things other than sex among their top emotional/relationship needs, lots of great sex is the _product_ of a great relationship, not the source of it. 

In the beginning of relationships, everyone tends to be on their best behavior. They're paying attention, making time, talking, being affectionate, having fun, being sexual. So there's a good chance that everyone's needs are being met. The problem is, all too often, over time one partner may stop paying as much attention, making time as a couple, really talking, having fun together, being affectionate, being sexual. So the other partner may gradually also stop putting as much effort into meeting their partner's needs - because their own are going unmet. Then, suddenly, there's a problem. 

And, so the downward spiral begins, where no one is getting their needs met, resentment builds, resentment is further damaging to the relationship, even fewer needs are being met, there's even more resentment...

Which is why I usually start off my response to those "my partner doesn't want to have sex with me" threads by asking about the state of the rest of the relationship. Do they still _date_ their partner, treat him/her like they did when they first got together and fell in love? Because it's hard to enthusiastically meet a need for someone who isn't also meeting your needs. It's hard to make someone feel loved if they haven't been doing the things that make you feel loved in a long time. And it's darn near impossible to want to shag someone regularly who has made it clear they don't really even like you as a person, aren't interested in meeting your needs, or even just think you're defective for having needs that don't match their own. 

Then someone shows up here telling us that their partner orgasms every time and wondering what's wrong with their partner that they don't want to have more sex. And wondering what they can do, sexually, to make their partner want more sex. When sometimes the answer to that is that it's not a problem with the sex, at all, but a problem with the relationship. 

Sure, sometimes the answer _is_ that they were sexually incompatible to begin with. But I think it's far more common that _their relationship as a whole_ has gone wrong and it's negatively impacting their sex life, rather than that their partner is defective or asexual or just evil. And in those cases, the fix will need to be a _relationship_ fix, rather than just a sexual one.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> THIS!!!!!!
> 
> THIS is what seems to be the basic problem that is the common thread throughout most sexless relationships, I believe. At least, for the situations I've seen posted on here.


We have had sex twice in 2021. We are both fully aware of our basic problem - no one has been left in the dark to spare their feelings. I have become conflict avoidant over it, and have told her so explicitly. I refuse to continue to have the same argument, over and over and over again, that cannot be resolved because it is not a solvable problem. This isn't a "use your teeth less" or "take a shower" kind of problem. It's a basic, fundamental personality trait.

Two people who do not agree on what constitutes a mutually satisfying sex life because they have wildly different ideas about what they should do in bed together have a compatibility issue, not a communication issue. We are simultaneously both to blame and neither to blame for being basically what we are. That we had good sex at all for a very long time is because one of us was willing to sacrifice for the other and because we were just younger, and something is better than nothing. As I approach 60, that balance is changing.

To return to the topic at hand, what I can say with honesty is that if your sexual nature is three sigma to the left of the mean, you will have a hard time finding a partner who is satisfied with what you offer. Having a spouse lose interest in you sexually does not require them to be having an affair. Instead of putting a VAR in their car, you might do well to just sit down and ask "Is our sex life satisfying for you? If not, why not?". It can't hurt to try. Maybe you cannot fix it, but at least you have a shot.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting point. I can't count the number of tines I've seen a guy come here complaining that his wife hardly ever wants sex but somehow manages to orgasm 15 times during the one hour a month they have it.
> 
> That's never passed the sniff test in my world. If I'm having great sex, which I currently am, I'm going to want more...which I do.


My wife is multiply orgasmic too, but that doesn't seem to change her frequency meter. Once it's over, it seems to leave no long-lasting impression. Enjoyable in the moment, but tied to nothing else.


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## Mojokillingwife (Apr 20, 2021)

TXTrini said:


> As someone who was in a sexless marriage for over a decade, that was the first question I asked. What happens when your spouse is conflict-avoidant, dishonest or doesn't want to hurt your feelings because they want everything else you provide?
> 
> What if you love them and decide you can live without sex b/c you think they're worth it?
> 
> ...


I am in a, for all intents and purposes, a sexless life. I’ve gone over a year without sex, including foreplay. The The only time she was a sex crazed beast was when she wanted to have a baby. These past couple of years I’ve asked her if she is no longer attracted to me, do I not please her in bed. Her response is always the same, it is her. Today I asked again, and she got all mad saying she just had sex with me last week. I lover her so much, but I am at the end of playing this game. I am about to start cheating and I don’t want to do that. Her constant rejection is killing me.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Cletus said:


> My wife is multiply orgasmic too, but that doesn't seem to change her frequency meter. Once it's over, it seems to leave no long-lasting impression. Enjoyable in the moment, but tied to nothing else.


I think, unfortunately, that’s true for a number of women.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Openminded said:


> I think, unfortunately, that’s true for a number of women.


Crazy. If I could do that I would be mainlining it all day.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

TXTrini said:


> As someone who was in a sexless marriage for over a decade, that was the first question I asked. What happens when your spouse is conflict-avoidant, dishonest or doesn't want to hurt your feelings because they want everything else you provide?
> 
> What if you love them and decide you can live without sex b/c you think they're worth it?
> 
> ...


You are right. People only share what they want to share. Sadly, in the last year, my desire for sex with my wife has almost completely dissipated. Last year at this time, we were at least going about once every 7-9 days. To me, that was fine, and to her, maybe not quite enough but not terrible. Now? We're lucky to have sex twice a month - it's down to maybe once every 3 weeks.

I've been the lower drive person generally, but my wife has gained so much weight, to the point I am not attracted to her anymore sexually. It's hard to say that "out loud", but it's true. It doesn't help that she's going through menopause. But you know, I love her very much - and am not interested in divorce or remarrying and rarely am I even hankering for a new sex experience. It just is what it is, and if my wife lost 40-50 lbs, would it help? Probably some, yes.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> You are right. People only share what they want to share. Sadly, in the last year, my desire for sex with my wife has almost completely dissipated. Last year at this time, we were at least going about once every 7-9 days. To me, that was fine, and to her, maybe not quite enough but not terrible. Now? We're lucky to have sex twice a month - it's down to maybe once every 3 weeks.
> 
> I've been the lower drive person generally, but my wife has gained so much weight, to the point I am not attracted to her anymore sexually. It's hard to say that "out loud", but it's true. It doesn't help that she's going through menopause. But you know, I love her very much - and am not interested in divorce or remarrying and rarely am I even hankering for a new sex experience. It just is what it is, and if my wife lost 40-50 lbs, would it help? Probably some, yes.


Do you think it's possible that your wife’s weight gain is at least somewhat related to her feeling a bit unwanted?

For many people fitness is something they pursue to remain attractive to their partner. If one feels like their partner isn't interested they may decide it isn't worth the effort and that they'll get more pleasure from ice cream.

Right now you don't want her at all....if she put in tremendous effort and lost 40-50 pounds you might want her a some. From a cost benefit analysis that's a ton of effort for not much reward.

You know your wife and marital dynamic, so what do you think?


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Do you think it's possible that your wife’s weight gain is at least somewhat related to her feeling a bit unwanted?


For my wife it'is a way of coping with her mental issues. She's doubled in size in the last few years. I still would have sex with her. But now she's got the extra baggage (no pun intended) of the body image, so, as you probably know, she's withdrawn completely. But I think that feeling unwanted is a big killer too, no doubt about it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> For my wife it'is a way of coping with her mental issues. She's doubled in size in the last few years. I still would have sex with her. But now she's got the extra baggage (no pun intended) of the body image, so, as you probably know, she's withdrawn completely. But I think that feeling unwanted is a big killer too, no doubt about it.


Body image is a huge issue for sure.

Physical attraction and sex are complicated and multi faceted.

For me I pursue athletics because I like it and feel better both physically and mentally. Even when my ex had raging ED he refused to deal with and I felt horribly unwanted I still pursued my fitness activities.

But to your point others have different ways of dealing with issues.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> To return to the topic at hand, what I can say with honesty is that if your sexual nature is three sigma to the left of the mean, you will have a hard time finding a partner who is satisfied with what you offer. Having a spouse lose interest in you sexually does not require them to be having an affair. Instead of putting a VAR in their car, *you might do well to just sit down and ask "Is our sex life satisfying for you? If not, why not?". It can't hurt to try. Maybe you cannot fix it, but at least you have a shot.*


I completely agree, and if he had any interest in being honest and open, or ANY interest at all in meeting MY needs for physical contact and connection with him (and orgasms) - or any interest in being an actual caring PARTNER - then he would have been willing to answer my questions or discuss it at all. Instead he lied, shifted the truth, told me I was imagining things, called me names (sex addict) and would get angry that I was "creating" problems that didn't exist. I was NEVER angry or demanding, I was always in "hey, what can I do to turn you on more?" mode. But I was shut down immediately, and eventually aggressively, EVERY SINGLE TIME.

For many sex refusing spouses, they just don't care...so they have NO vested interest in fixing the problem...because there is NO problem in their minds. They are focused on getting their own needs met, and don't care about meeting their partner's needs at all. And THAT was what hurt -- that he was basically trying to ignore and invalidate my needs...and that he was trying to get ME to do that TO MYSELF as well. 

How else can that be interpreted, except that I had NO value to him as a wife, a woman, or as a person? I was valued only in as much as I made his life comfortable and easier. I wasn't valued or wanted as ME at all, in any way separate from what HE thought I deserved.

And when I see other people going through that type of sexual rejection, it hurts me for them and makes me bristle. I just can't help it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Cletus said:


> My wife is multiply orgasmic too, but that doesn't seem to change her frequency meter. Once it's over, it seems to leave no long-lasting impression. Enjoyable in the moment, but tied to nothing else.


She may be, says she is...

But, is she MO?

Only she, and the little man in the rowboat know for sure


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> Body image is a huge issue for sure.
> 
> Physical attraction and sex are complicated and multi faceted.
> 
> ...


Indulge me, dear!

What is raging ED?

Being imaginative and verbose, I could.

Can you?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

In Absentia said:


> For me it was this one... But it was only 5 years into the marriage + 2 kids. I don't think my wife was "dishonest"... definitely "conflict-avoidant" and with her mental issues (which she hid very well). I guess it was my fault for not finding a very well paid job soon after moving to a foreign country...  But then, with no communication I lost my patience. I gave up and became a horrible man. So, yes, I played a big part and I failed to look in the mirror. I was very good at blaming other people. And now it's too late.


I get it, it's easier to say nothing for the moment, but what good does that do in the end? I used to talk about it at first, not just the sex, but what it meant for us, and he would just look at me (sometimes) and say nothing or get angry and guilt trip me. 

We didn't have sex sometimes when my health issues flared up, and he threw that in my face and said it was my turn now to be supportive. Fair enough, but then that went on and on and on... I'm actually relieved he cheated, I may have never left him b/c I so badly did not want to "fail".


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> You are right. People only share what they want to share. Sadly, in the last year, my desire for sex with my wife has almost completely dissipated. Last year at this time, we were at least going about once every 7-9 days. To me, that was fine, and to her, maybe not quite enough but not terrible. Now? We're lucky to have sex twice a month - it's down to maybe once every 3 weeks.
> 
> I've been the lower drive person generally, but my wife has gained so much weight, to the point I am not attracted to her anymore sexually. It's hard to say that "out loud", but it's true. It doesn't help that she's going through menopause. But you know, I love her very much - and am not interested in divorce or remarrying and rarely am I even hankering for a new sex experience. It just is what it is, and if my wife lost 40-50 lbs, would it help? Probably some, yes.


What kind of shape are you in? BOTH my ex and I gained weight, ironically, he gained several times more than I did but still expected me to be slimmer. For reference, he went from 185>250 and I from 130>150. We worked out and lost it together, I was in better shape than him and that still made no difference. Like lifeishort mentioned, sometimes it doesn't seem worth it, she sounds depressed.

We regained (my medical issue struck again), apparently he used to eat fast food out (and what I cooked at home) and drank, so he regained everything. I'm working on losing again now, and that still hasn't stalled my sex life. Ironically, my bf met me at my worst and found me very attractive.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I completely agree, and if he had any interest in being honest and open, or ANY interest at all in meeting MY needs for physical contact and connection with him (and orgasms) - or any interest in being an actual caring PARTNER - then he would have been willing to answer my questions or discuss it at all. Instead he lied, shifted the truth, told me I was imagining things, called me names (sex addict) and would get angry that I was "creating" problems that didn't exist. I was NEVER angry or demanding, I was always in "hey, what can I do to turn you on more?" mode. But I was shut down immediately, and eventually aggressively, EVERY SINGLE TIME.
> 
> For many sex refusing spouses, they just don't care...so they have NO vested interest in fixing the problem...because there is NO problem in their minds. They are focused on getting their own needs met, and don't care about meeting their partner's needs at all. And THAT was what hurt -- that he was basically trying to ignore and invalidate my needs...and that he was trying to get ME to do that TO MYSELF as well.
> 
> ...


This^^^. I was good enough to provide an organized life with home comforts, but I wasn't a "real" person with needs and desires to him. He wanted someone who only wanted to do what he wanted when he wanted.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Mojokillingwife said:


> I am in a, for all intents and purposes, a sexless life. I’ve gone over a year without sex, including foreplay. The The only time she was a sex crazed beast was when she wanted to have a baby. These past couple of years I’ve asked her if she is no longer attracted to me, do I not please her in bed. Her response is always the same, it is her. Today I asked again, and she got all mad saying she just had sex with me last week. I lover her so much, but I am at the end of playing this game. I am about to start cheating and I don’t want to do that. Her constant rejection is killing me.


Dude, while I feel for you, I can't condone cheating. Either you do like many of us and deal with it or leave, why make it messier than you need to? You'll only give your wife the excuse and opportunity to demonize you to your kid.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Indulge me, dear!
> 
> What is raging ED?
> 
> ...


Very bad erectile dysfunction.

Consciously we women know it's not personal, but boy it can sure feel like it.


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

My personal experience is that it is usually a complex mix of factors that leads to a sex issue in a marriage. In my case it was mix of:

1. Poor communication both about sex and more generally -lots of misunderstandings.
2. My wife's passive character and shame issues around sex.
3. My logical, problem-solving character approaching the issue in the wrong way.
4. A good dollop of pursuer-distancer dynamic.
5. Resentment for mistakes we have made or have perceived we have made.
6. Significant life events making one or both of us at times begin questioning our happiness.
7. The vicious circle of frustration at the issue leading to further misunderstandings and resentment.

It has taken me over 2 years to really get all this sorted in my head as well as repairing the situation (we will always be a work in progress, but that is life). That was 2 years of reading forums like this, self-help books, regular discussions and arguments with my wife and even a couple of sessions with a therapist. 

I am quite sure that if there was a fundamental issue in our marriage it would have resulted in its breakdown during that time and there were some really tough times during that period where I thought we may be heading that way. However we are still together and are having sex (and enjoying it) regularly now.

The silver lining to the cloud is that all this soul-searching has meant that I both understand myself and my wife much better and that really does help with countering any issues that we encounter in our relationship. Communication and doing your own thinking and research won't make your partner desire you but it can help you understand what you are dealing with a bit better. 

For my marriage it was clear that making some changes in my behaviour and encouraging my wife to make some changes to hers whilst accepting our fundamental characters both in and out of the bedroom has helped us out. The reality is that for us, under all that poor communication, resentment and hangups we were two people who enjoyed sex and enjoyed sex with each other. I know that sadly, there will be plenty of people who are not in that group and whose voyage of discovery won't end so positively, but you don't know that when you get in the boat.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

TXTrini said:


> What kind of shape are you in? BOTH my ex and I gained weight, ironically, he gained several times more than I did but still expected me to be slimmer. For reference, he went from 185>250 and I from 130>150. We worked out and lost it together, I was in better shape than him and that still made no difference. Like lifeishort mentioned, sometimes it doesn't seem worth it, she sounds depressed.
> 
> We regained (my medical issue struck again), apparently he used to eat fast food out (and what I cooked at home) and drank, so he regained everything. I'm working on losing again now, and that still hasn't stalled my sex life. Ironically, my bf met me at my worst and found me very attractive.


I am a foot taller than she is and she outweighs me by a couple of pounds.

Probably all you need to know.

She used to be a personal trainer and has run several marathons - and we're not talking back in her 20s, we're talking 9-10 years ago. She's completely let herself go these last few years, especially this last 18 months. I love her, I do, I just am not feeling it in the bedroom at all.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Do you think it's possible that your wife’s weight gain is at least somewhat related to her feeling a bit unwanted?
> 
> For many people fitness is something they pursue to remain attractive to their partner. If one feels like their partner isn't interested they may decide it isn't worth the effort and that they'll get more pleasure from ice cream.
> 
> ...


I think there is some natural decline given our age (roughly 50), so if she lost 40-50 lbs it's not like I'd be screwing like in college. 

Frankly, it's not even a huge frustration for me. I'm more concerned about her long term health than I am about sex. She should be motivated to live past 65-70 years old.

Her mother had a stroke in her 60s and wasn't as heavy as my wife is. She was helpless for the last 7 years of her life. I don't want that future for her or me.

Sex is secondary to that, but yeah, sometimes I wish my wife was thinner. She doesn't need to be skinny, but what's going on here is not attractive.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> I am a foot taller than she is and she outweighs me by a couple of pounds.
> 
> Probably all you need to know.
> 
> She used to be a personal trainer and has run several marathons - and we're not talking back in her 20s, we're talking 9-10 years ago. She's completely let herself go these last few years, especially this last 18 months. I love her, I do, I just am not feeling it in the bedroom at all.


Yeah, that sounds offputting. I don't know what to tell you, man. She's going to have to want to change for herself. Sometimes I wonder if loss of attraction is inevitable, there were many times I was not attracted to my husband either, but I wanted the closeness.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Gabriel said:


> I am a foot taller than she is and she outweighs me by a couple of pounds.
> 
> Probably all you need to know.
> 
> She used to be a personal trainer and has run several marathons - and we're not talking back in her 20s, we're talking 9-10 years ago. She's completely let herself go these last few years, especially this last 18 months. I love her, I do, I just am not feeling it in the bedroom at all.



If she once had that level of fitness she probably feels terrible about herself now.

I put on about 20 pounds in my late 30's and I was unhappy with that.

I was about 42 when I got the flu and lost 12...decided to make a big effort after that and went back to the mid 120's (5'4) and the difference in my self esteem is enormous.

Of course I don't wear extra weight well....my face gets fat.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

The premise here is overwhelmingly correct - and it’s also the most effective path and honestly the only useful one. The only thing you can control is you. So that’s the best place to start, no matter what.

I don’t have much perspective when it’s a wife not getting sex from her husband, not my department. so I’ll leave that to others.

But with regards to husbands not getting sex from their wives (which is the majority of sexless marriages), it’s almost always about him. Almost invariably in these cases (whether on forums like here or real life examples), he doesn’t have a broken or an asexual wife, she just doesn’t want sex with HIM. 

Usually his attractiveness has declined and his unattractiveness has increased. And we usually see some combination of the following:
He’s out of shape, fat, skinny, frumpy, unassertive, unsuccessful, not being the leader in his marriage/family, not being masculine so his wife can be feminine, being boring, over predictable, not flirting, being weak, etc. 

His wife loses respect and attraction to him (maybe not completely, but to some degree) and doesn’t want to have sex with him anymore, or at least not as much. 

So what to do...
You can’t control your spouse or their attraction/desire for you (or anyone else) and you can’t negotiate genuine desire. 

What you can do is take an honest assessment of yourself, your attractiveness (physical, personality, masculinity, leadership, flirtiness, etc) and figure out how to improve yourself as a man, to be a more attractive man. 
A man that your wife wants to have sex with. 
A man that other women want - so you’ll have more options in the event that your wife doesn’t come around (or if you’re one of the unfortunate .002% that actually has a legit asexual wife). 

So, most effective path forward in a sexless marriage, recognize that it’s probably you, and go fix it.


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

In my previous marriage I was the one who refused sex. I always thought of an excuse. I demonstrated my boredom with my ex-husband, without fail. And I was always both amazed and put off by the fact that he knew I didn't love him and didn't want him, but he still demanded sex from me. As if everything had been perfectly normal between us! That's how he acted. There had been passion and desire during our first years, but after that constant rows and alienation took its toll on our marriage. 
Now, in my second marriage, again everything started pretty tempestuously: lots of love, unbridled sexual energy, slowly but surely turning into sex encounterd only once a week, not because of me. 
Now I feel exactly like my ex-husband - rejected, unwanted and manipulated into thinking it is all my fault. Because I'm not a good girl, so I don't deserve to be regularly paid attention to.
Long story short, when someone loses interest in their partner, the frequency and quality of sex is the first tell-tale sign. My heart aches to think so, but I have to accept the reality of it all.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Emily Bronte said:


> Long story short, when someone loses interest in their partner, the frequency and quality of sex is the first tell-tale sign. My heart aches to think so, but I have to accept the reality of it all.


Yet when one spouse becomes LD, the story is almost always, "It's not you...it's me!" And then, "Of course I'm attracted to you. I just don't think about it." And all of that other nonsense. It's really hard to believe that the non-initiating, non-interested, non-motivated spouse is not holding onto his or her spouse for the money.

Edited to add: Gary Chapman has defined the Five Love Languages that help two spouses communicate with each other, but are there five (or some other number) life situations that are certain to KILL communications between spouses? If so, one of them has to be a spouse having no interest in sex with her or his spouse.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Emily Bronte said:


> And I was always both amazed and put off by the fact that he knew I didn't love him and didn't want him, but he still demanded sex from me. As if everything had been perfectly normal between us! That's how he acted.


Just out of curiosity, how was he supposed to know you didn’t love or want him? Because you weren’t having sex with him or was there some other tell-tale sign he was supposed to pick up on but didn’t?

And if you didn’t love or want him, why didn’t you leave him at that point? What did you continue to want out of him if you didn’t love or want him?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Just out of curiosity, how was he supposed to know you didn’t love or want him? Because you weren’t having sex with him or was there some other tell-tale sign he was supposed to pick up on but didn’t?
> 
> And if you didn’t love or want him, why didn’t you leave him at that point? What did you continue to want out of him if you didn’t love or want him?


I know you asked Emily, but my kids dad actually told me that I was supposed to "act like I enjoyed it". So clearly he knew I didn't and had no interest at all in making any effort. I'd told him several times that I was unhappy and his response was that it was my problem...he was happy and I wasn't his problem.

Some people think like this. My ex just had a different view of relationship dynamics....in his world women were to be seen and not heard and were expected to put out on demand. If I got pleasure out of it that was great but he wasn't concerned about it. He admitted that he was "old fashioned", as he put it.

It was a long time ago and he has a long time gf so maybe he's grown up. We get along well these days so I hope so.

Obviously I did leave him.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> But I have to think that women who have all these O's are going to want somewhat regular sex, so I find it highly suspect that these women only want sex once every 3 months but have all these orgasms that one time. It's statistically unlikely anyway.


I find the 'She always enjoys sex when she has it but still usually declines' to be eminently believable.

It's like going to the gym. For most people, they feel great after going. But ask them a couple of days later when they're vegging on the couch watching TV if they want to go to the gym and you're likely to get a "not today".

It fits in nicely with the concept of Responsive Desire.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> Interesting point. I can't count the number of tines I've seen a guy come here complaining that his wife hardly ever wants sex but somehow manages to orgasm 15 times during the one hour a month they have it.
> 
> That's never passed the sniff test in my world. If I'm having great sex, which I currently am, I'm going to want more...which I do.


The problem is orgasms and “great sex” are not synonymous.

Orgasms are not necessarily an indication of good sex or that someone enjoys it or wants to have it. 

Orgasms are a reflex. Provide the right physiological stimulus and an orgasm can occur. The mind and emotions can influence them and even subvert them but not always. Sometimes it’s a reflex akin to a sneeze following nasal irritation.

Rape victims have had orgasms. 

Orgasms are not in and of themselves a sign of enjoying or wanting sex. 

Nor is the lack of orgasm necessarily a sign of not wanting or not enjoying sex. 

So some of these women can be orgasming even if they are not necessarily into the the sex with their H’s and even if she does orgasm, it’s not necessarily a given that she enjoyed it.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> The problem is orgasms and “great sex” are not synonymous.
> 
> Orgasms are not necessarily an indication of good sex or that someone enjoys it or wants to have it.
> 
> ...


I can see that...I know I very much look forward to sex and I don't know if I'm going to orgasm. Sometimes I'm pretty sure I will, sometimes I don't think I will but then I do, and sometimes I know I'm not going to. I look forward to sex anyway.

So then maybe the issue is that some people equate orgasms with good sex and don't know what other signs to look for?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> I can see that...I know I very much look forward to sex and I don't know if I'm going to orgasm. Sometimes I'm pretty sure I will, sometimes I don't think I will but then I do, and sometimes I know I'm not going to. I look forward to sex anyway.
> 
> So then maybe the issue is that some people equate orgasms with good sex and don't know what other signs to look for?


Since my Mrs is mostly responsive the only way I can tell if she is “going along with it” versus “looking forward to it” is if she actually commits to trying to orgasm.

She has gotten really good at making it seem like she’s into it in the non-orgasm case but how is a guy to know? No clue on this one...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Since my Mrs is mostly responsive the only way I can tell if she is “going along with it” versus “looking forward to it” is if she actually commits to trying to orgasm.
> 
> She has gotten really good at making it seem like she’s into it in the non-orgasm case but how is a guy to know? No clue on this one...


Can you not detect a certain level of enthusiasm and active participation?

I worry less about the O and more about the entire experience. I love being on top, I love touching him, and orgasm or not I still have functioning nerves inside that feel good. If an O is going to happen that's icing on the cake for me.

Wouldn't that be enough to know I'm happy to be there?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> Can you not detect a certain level of enthusiasm and active participation?
> 
> I worry less about the O and more about the entire experience. I love being on top, I love touching him, and orgasm or not I still have functioning nerves inside that feel good. If an O is going to happen that's icing on the cake for me.
> 
> Wouldn't that be enough to know I'm happy to be there?


Yeah, I mean if she grabs my arms, abs, face, head, hands, back, etc... or looks at me, smiles, etc... it’s good signals but when you’re the one initiating everything and your partner is like, “Nah I’m good.” then at least for me there is always an element of doubt.

Like if I didn’t initiate would she rather be playing another Candy Crush level? Sure when the act happens there can be some enthusiasm but is it responsive or manufactured or...?

When there is an attempt to have an orgasm then there is no ambiguity.

I’m not going to try and have sex unless I’m committed to having an orgasm unless I’m drunk out of my mind and fail which has happened maybe 3 times in my entire life.


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> Just out of curiosity, how was he supposed to know you didn’t love or want him? Because you weren’t having sex with him or was there some other tell-tale sign he was supposed to pick up on but didn’t?
> 
> And if you didn’t love or want him, why didn’t you leave him at that point? What did you continue to want out of him if you didn’t love or want him?


I'm really not proud of the way I handled my first marriage. I remained in a dead-end relationship for nearly a decade because of the child we had and the comfort we had achieved (beautiful home, etc.) We had constant rows, some of them really bad, reaching a point of mutual dislike which took us to the inevitable divorce. And in all this poisonous context, knowing perfectly well how I felt about him, he wanted us to have sex. As if, sex was something totally alien from the rest of the relationship. That's what made me angry.
But I see what you mean - it wasn't nice of me to keep the illusion of a marriage by staying in it indefinitely. I should have left earlier but I was young and thought that what was happening to us was normal and present everywhere. My own parents lived like that all their lives.


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## Emily Bronte (Mar 21, 2021)

oldshirt said:


> The problem is orgasms and “great sex” are not synonymous.
> 
> Orgasms are not necessarily an indication of good sex or that someone enjoys it or wants to have it.
> 
> ...


I completely agree! 
When I want / initiate sex, I don't do it to necessarily have an orgasm - it's really secondary to the primary reason I seek physical intimacy. I want to have sex because I love my partner and enjoy touching him and him touching me. I love the temperature of his body, if you like. I also believe that through being desired, you get some sort of additional validation - that you are still his number one and the relationship is still alive. 
But usually men don't understand that. Before we start anything in bed, my husband is already annoyed by the prospect of him not performing well. For him, successful sex must lead to orgasm, no matter what. If I fail to reach there, the whole thing is perceived as a complete failure. 
So, this is probably how faked orgasms emerged on our planet - to save a man's self-esteem.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yeah, I mean if she grabs my arms, abs, face, head, hands, back, etc... or looks at me, smiles, etc... it’s good signals but when you’re the one initiating everything and your partner is like, “Nah I’m good.” then at least for me there is always an element of doubt.
> 
> Like if I didn’t initiate would she rather be playing another Candy Crush level? Sure when the act happens there can be some enthusiasm but is it responsive or manufactured or...?
> 
> ...


This is a very male way of looking at it. Women don't have the same biological need to orgasm that men do so in that sense the experience is a little different for us.

But in the end does it matter? I mean, if you have a good relationship with your wife and you get other signals that she loves and desires you, maybe you should have a little faith? I know I wouldn't be walking around naked and I certainly wouldn't be putting in effort on my end if I wasn't happy to be there.

Food for thought.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Emily Bronte said:


> I completely agree!
> When I want / initiate sex, I don't do it to necessarily have an orgasm - it's really secondary to the primary reason I seek physical intimacy. I want to have sex because I love my partner and enjoy touching him and him touching me. I love the temperature of his body, if you like. I also believe that through being desired, you get some sort of additional validation - that you are still his number one and the relationship is still alive.
> But usually men don't understand that. Before we start anything in bed, my husband is already annoyed by the prospect of him not performing well. For him, successful sex must lead to orgasm, no matter what. If I fail to reach there, the whole thing is perceived as a complete failure.
> So, this is probably how faked orgasms emerged on our planet - to save a man's self-esteem.


That pressure can get in the way of us having one and also dampens our enthusiasm. He's transferring the expectations he has for himself to you and dinishimg the experience for both of you, all for his own ego.

Very sad.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

lifeistooshort said:


> This is a very male way of looking at it. Women don't have the same biological need to orgasm that men do so in that sense the experience is a little different for us.
> 
> But in the end does it matter? I mean, if you have a good relationship with your wife and you get other signals that she loves and desires you, maybe you should have a little faith? I know I wouldn't be walking around naked and I certainly wouldn't be putting in effort on my end if I wasn't happy to be there.
> 
> Food for thought.


You’re absolutely right it doesn’t matter and certainly isn’t something I stress out about but we’re having an interesting discussion here.

I used to think it mattered but it doesn’t.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ccpowerslave said:


> Since my Mrs is mostly responsive the only way I can tell if she is “going along with it” versus “looking forward to it” is if she actually commits to trying to orgasm.
> 
> She has gotten really good at making it seem like she’s into it in the non-orgasm case but how is a guy to know? No clue on this one...


It may be best just to take her at her word, or action really, even if she isn't committed to O she still shows she wants to do it with you, so maybe refrain from continuing to dwell on it as you enjoy her participation.

You believe her when she says no, true? So believe her when she says yes, and let any concerns slip away. Enjoy. Don't overthink. 

That let's you enjoy it more, and the more you show you're having a great time with her, that stays with her. Big picture that contributes to better mutual involvement.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Emily Bronte said:


> I completely agree!
> When I want / initiate sex, I don't do it to necessarily have an orgasm - it's really secondary to the primary reason I seek physical intimacy. I want to have sex because I love my partner and enjoy touching him and him touching me. I love the temperature of his body, if you like. I also believe that through being desired, you get some sort of additional validation - that you are still his number one and the relationship is still alive.
> But usually men don't understand that. Before we start anything in bed, my husband is already annoyed by the prospect of him not performing well. For him, successful sex must lead to orgasm, no matter what. If I fail to reach there, the whole thing is perceived as a complete failure.
> So, this is probably how faked orgasms emerged on our planet - to save a man's self-esteem.


Boy, that all would get in the way of a time to time morning quickie.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It may be best just to take her at her word, or action really, even if she isn't committed to O she still shows she wants to do it with you, so maybe refrain from continuing to dwell on it as you enjoy her participation.
> 
> You believe her when she says no, true? So believe her when she says yes, and let any concerns slip away. Enjoy. Don't overthink.


Absolutely.

We have moved mountains to increase and improve activity. You don’t bother if you don’t want to be with that person.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

Cletus said:


> I don't really excel at the whole "shoulder to cry on" industry, but what doesn't get enough attention is a good hard look in the mirror. Just because you have genitalia doesn't mean that your spouse is going to be stepping all over theirs to get to yours.


Wow.

From what I've seen, most people come here asking specifically, "What's wrong with me?" or "What am I doing wrong?" or "How can I be more attractive for my spouse?" Not just this forum either. Also, I've noticed that in many cases, the women are quick to get responses like "do you suck in bed?" or "are you fat?" I rarely see that when it's the man complaining. Men are usually just told to cheat or move on.

Interesting.

I'm guessing your wife has done something to offend you and cause you to lack interest? Does she know what it is, or are you waiting for her to read your mind about what she should be looking for in that mirror? 

I hope your situation improves.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

theloveofmylife said:


> Wow.
> 
> From what I've seen, most people come here asking specifically, "What's wrong with me?" or "What am I doing wrong?" or "How can I be more attractive for my spouse?" Not just this forum either. Also, I've noticed that in many cases, the women are quick to get responses like "do you suck in bed?" or "are you fat?" I rarely see that when it's the man complaining. Men are usually just told to cheat or move on.
> 
> ...


You have been here three months. I have been hear almost a decade now. Perhaps our experiences differ.

There is a long-standing poster whom I will not name whose response to "my husband has lost interest in me" is to proclaim him a porn addict, sight unseen. Others immediately jump on the affair bandwagon, with no evidence, and no discussion of the alternatives. That's what I have seen more of, overall.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I haven't read this while thread but when I saw that @Cletus was the author, my first instinct was that perhaps he had made progress in conveying that he is tired of sex as it exists in his marriage and got his wife to agree and stop wanting it as well. 

I'll just add that according to authors like Schnarch that @Cletus and his wife likely now have an iron clad devil's agreement to avoid the crucible of marriage. This is where a strong emotional conflict needed to address a couple's emotional development is avoided for the short term gain of helping ease any suffering in the relationship. In reality it only serves to prolong it and dig the relationship deeper into the depths of pain and suffering. 

Schnarch's crucible would be confronting whatever it takes for the relationship to move forwards or ending it. Helping each other to avoid that confrontation is an all too common skill that couples actually help each other to develop which is also like making a pact with the devil.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I haven't read this while thread but when I saw that @Cletus was the author, my first instinct was that perhaps he had made progress in conveying that he is tired of sex as it exists in his marriage and got his wife to agree and stop wanting it as well.
> 
> I'll just add that according to authors like Schnarch that @Cletus and his wife likely now have an iron clad devil's agreement to avoid the crucible of marriage. This is where a strong emotional conflict needed to address a couple's emotional development is avoided for the short term gain of helping ease any suffering in the relationship. In reality it only serves to prolong it and dig the relationship deeper into the depths of pain and suffering.
> 
> Schnarch's crucible would be confronting whatever it takes for the relationship to move forwards or ending it. Helping each other to avoid that confrontation is an all too common skill that couples actually help each other to develop which is also like making a pact with the devil.


This thread was not intended to be about my marriage. It is a refutation of the what I see as common opinion here that a spouse who loses interest in sex is inevitably having an affair or is a recalcitrant wanker. I am long past looking for a different solution to our issues. I only hope to serve in some small way as an example. 

I am not an advocate for the binary thinking that you can either resolve an issue to everyone's satisfaction or you terminate the marriage. Sometimes the only solution to an intractable problem is a demilitarized zone. Agree to disagree and agree to lay down your weapons. If one side loses interest in sex and the other has insufficient interest or is physically or mentally unable to make the changes required to re-engage their partner, then a companionate marriage is an acceptable solution, not a failure. The devil's agreement, openly stated or implicitly understood, as long as it is agreed to by both parties, is valid and no one else has the authority to consider it invalid, Schnarch included (whom I read long ago, and found tedious). 

Sex ends at some point in almost every marriage. Sooner for some perhaps then others.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> This is a very male way of looking at it. Women don't have the same biological need to orgasm that men do so in that sense the experience is a little different for us.
> 
> But in the end does it matter? I mean, if you have a good relationship with your wife and you get other signals that she loves and desires you, maybe you should have a little faith? I know I wouldn't be walking around naked and I certainly wouldn't be putting in effort on my end if I wasn't happy to be there.
> 
> Food for thought.


I wholeheartedly agree with this but didn't know how to convey it. Perfect! 


lifeistooshort said:


> That pressure can get in the way of us having one and also dampens our enthusiasm. He's transferring the expectations he has for himself to you and dinishimg the experience for both of you, all for his own ego.
> 
> Very sad.


I had this talk with my bf many times before he understood. I am the HD, but it's not about orgasm. The activity is pleasurable and intimate enough, orgasms are like other women mentioned, the icing on the cake. I honestly don't think men should get hung up on women's orgasms if they are content otherwise, in my case, that puts additional pressure and quite frankly kills the enjoyment. 

Again, it depends on the degree of honesty that exists. I never faked and was very upfront and my bf took it in stride. There's NO way my exH would have talked about anything sexual, it's really refreshing to be able to be open, honest with no judgment. 

Thanks for starting a great discussion, Cletus. Sorry, you aren't benefitting from it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus I am super guilty of binary thinking and I treated this problem in my marriage as having a binary solution.

With that said, I think the Reddit deadbedrooms typical advice of “just leave” is terrible. You try and correct things with your partner and if it can’t be corrected and you actually require sex then you leave.

After I had done everything I could think of to do and let my wife know how important this was if she wanted to stay together I had a mental timeline of what I would do if there wasn’t measurable improvement happening. At the outset I also told her what my ultimate expectations were and asked her to tell me the same and be honest. If I was doing anything that was slamming on the brakes for her I asked her to let me know.

Ultimately she had been telling me these things for years but I didn’t get it, pay attention, or know how to react to it. Thank heavens she has a lot of patience.

If after all that she’s like, “Nah...” well that sucks but I viewed myself then and now as someone who doesn’t have to be spanking in front of a computer screen or putting on the celibate priest outfit.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> The devil's agreement, openly stated or implicitly understood, as long as it is agreed to by both parties, is valid and no one else has the authority to consider it invalid, Schnarch included (whom I read long ago, and found tedious).


As I mentioned you and your wife have an ironclad devil's agreement. Just like @Holdingontoit you now enjoy serving as an example to others for those just now journeying down that road. 

I would argue that your example and superior knowledge on this topic is just another form of pacifying yourself and avoiding the proverbial confrontation needed to move forwards. Perhaps you have moved forwards and managed pass go one last time (but not collect the $200). Now you go through the motions of rolling the dice and somehow have them rigged to never come up doubles, cause you are done. 

Regards, 
Badsanta

PS: I am looking into buying jail and adding a hotel! I think if the banker takes a vote and everyone agree that they will let me do it!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I would argue that your example and superior knowledge on this topic is just another form of pacifying yourself and avoiding the proverbial confrontation needed to move forwards.


Ok, I'll bite.

What does moving forward look like here? What is an acceptable outcome, distinct from where we are now, and not including divorce (in which I have no interest) that would count as a victory?


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

I think the personal responsibility angle works until a guy posts that he's lost interest due to his wife's weight gain. Then he's the POS who should be thrilled his wife is in the same weight class as the UFC Men's Heavyweight Champion.


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## Torninhalf (Nov 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Ok, I'll bite.
> 
> What does moving forward look like here? What is an acceptable outcome, distinct from where we are now, and not including divorce (in which I have no interest) that would count as a victory?


Can I ask why divorce is off the table? No judgement, just curious.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Ok, I'll bite.
> 
> What does moving forward look like here? What is an acceptable outcome, distinct from where we are now, and not including divorce (in which I have no interest) that would count as a victory?


Sorry you'll need to start another thread for that! Because this one is not about your marriage.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Bear in mind he's only a POS if he doesn't tell his SO that their triple weight is going to affect the long term marriage agreement. 

If he does tell her, then her response will show him what she really cares about, then it's on her (or him, if he's the one tripled in weight).

All such conversations should start as honey, let's regain our health together, because I don't want to lose you too early to avoidable health issues from too much weight, poor eating habits.

If it goes no where, then each person has a right to evaluate their future independently if needed.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Bear in mind he's only a POS if he doesn't tell his SO that their triple weight is going to affect the long term marriage agreement.
> 
> If he does tell her, then her response will show him what she really cares about, then it's on her (or him, if he's the one tripled in weight).
> 
> ...


You still put it back on the guy with no mention of what responsibility the wife has.

If a person's weight doubles (or triples) and they have to be told that it is affecting the relationship, then they clearly have some self awareness issues and/or is just out of touch with reality. Now granted, almost 3/4 of Americans are overweight so in most cases they probably gain weight together. That's a different animal.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus said:


> We have had sex twice in 2021. We are both fully aware of our basic problem - no one has been left in the dark to spare their feelings. I have become conflict avoidant over it, and have told her so explicitly. I refuse to continue to have the same argument, over and over and over again, that cannot be resolved because it is not a solvable problem. This isn't a "use your teeth less" or "take a shower" kind of problem. It's a basic, fundamental personality trait.
> 
> Two people who do not agree on what constitutes a mutually satisfying sex life because they have wildly different ideas about what they should do in bed together have a compatibility issue, not a communication issue. We are simultaneously both to blame and neither to blame for being basically what we are. That we had good sex at all for a very long time is because one of us was willing to sacrifice for the other and because we were just younger, and something is better than nothing. As I approach 60, that balance is changing.
> 
> To return to the topic at hand, what I can say with honesty is that if your sexual nature is three sigma to the left of the mean, you will have a hard time finding a partner who is satisfied with what you offer. Having a spouse lose interest in you sexually does not require them to be having an affair. Instead of putting a VAR in their car, you might do well to just sit down and ask "Is our sex life satisfying for you? If not, why not?". It can't hurt to try. Maybe you cannot fix it, but at least you have a shot.


Ok, I hope you will forgive this but I think this begs the (rhetorical) question- how many times did you masturbate to porn in 2021? I ask because in my opinion porn makes men "picky" in two ways:

1. They're not dying for sex because they use porn and masturbation to pacify their sex urge.
2. They've watched enough videos of performing ladies that their wife's beauty/sexiness/attractiveness simply loses its "value" overtime. Fantasy lady has fuller lips/longer hair/bigger X/is prettier/wilder/more enthusiastic/etc.

Of course, a sexless marriage isn't always caused by porn. However, porn sure gives men the luxury of being picky and aloof about sex. I'd challenge all men- put away the porn and see how grateful you are next time she says "yes". If you've waited two weeks- you'll be crying tears of joy. lol


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

@theloveofmylife - and there you have it.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> @theloveofmylife - and there you have it.


🤣


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## leftfield (Mar 29, 2016)

That is rich. I wonder if he even read all the comments.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

leftfield said:


> That is rich. I wonder if he even read all the comments.


No. He's above us plebs.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Cletus said:


> Sex ends at some point in almost every marriage. Sooner for some perhaps then others.


While I don’t think this is necessarily accurate in some form of sex or another, I liked your post for sharing a different type of marriage (more so the focus of companion) if that is what you’re personally content with. I don’t think there needs to be a specific mould of what love and relationships are if it’s agreeable to both.


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## theloveofmylife (Jan 5, 2021)

Cletus said:


> @theloveofmylife - and there you have it.


Not real sure why this is @ me, since I hadn't mentioned it in this conversation. It isn't always the case, of course. I do happen to agree with him that it's frequently an issue, especially with younger guys. 

And, with that I'll bow out.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

CatholicDad said:


> Ok, I hope you will forgive this but I think this begs the (rhetorical) question- how many times did you masturbate to porn in 2021? I ask because in my opinion porn makes men "picky" in two ways:
> 
> 1. They're not dying for sex because they use porn and masturbation to pacify their sex urge.
> 2. They've watched enough videos of performing ladies that their wife's beauty/sexiness/attractiveness simply loses its "value" overtime. Fantasy lady has fuller lips/longer hair/bigger X/is prettier/wilder/more enthusiastic/etc.
> ...


The problem with that last part is it comes such a scarce mindset it's not funny. It's like the guy who talks about getting "lucky".


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Al_Bundy said:


> The problem with that last part is it comes such a scarce mindset it's not funny. It's like the guy who talks about getting "lucky".


Yep. The default state is you’re hooking it up and the aberration is the case where it doesn’t happen.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Al_Bundy said:


> The problem with that last part is it comes such a scarce mindset it's not funny. It's like the guy who talks about getting "lucky".


Indeed. Don't eat for two weeks, then tell me how much you enjoyed that bone I threw your way.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Presuming or claiming sex will naturally end in marriage also comes from a scarcity mindset.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Sex ends at some point in almost every marriage. Sooner for some perhaps then others.


Not to derail your post...  but you are still having sex... twice in 2021 would have been our average. I would have accepted it, being nearly 60. But no sex at all? I wonder how you would deal with that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Al_Bundy said:


> You still put it back on the guy with no mention of what responsibility the wife has.
> 
> If a person's weight doubles (or triples) and they have to be told that it is affecting the relationship, then they clearly have some self awareness issues and/or is just out of touch with reality. Now granted, almost 3/4 of Americans are overweight so in most cases they probably gain weight together. That's a different animal.


No, I didn't, you might read again.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> Not to derail your post...  but you are still having sex... twice in 2021 would have been our average. I would have accepted it, being nearly 60. But no sex at all? I wonder how you would deal with that.


Perhaps you misunderstand.

I am not the poster coming here looking for answers as to why my spouse is no longer interested in sex, I AM the spouse no longer interested in sex. When I say not interested, I don't mean in a repulsed or avoid it at all costs sort of way, just a it-is-now-never-expected-so-it-rarely-happens way. 

I for one am glad to be rid of the feeling that every time I get intimate with my wife I'm donning a virtual straight jacket. Little to no sex is something of a relief, not a burden, even though (because?) I am nominally the higher interest partner. Any ol' port in a storm sex has lost its luster. A good book is just as enjoyable.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps you misunderstand.
> 
> I am not the poster coming here looking for answers as to why my spouse is no longer interested in sex, I AM the spouse no longer interested in sex. When I say not interested, I don't mean in a repulsed or avoid it at all costs sort of way, just a it-is-now-never-expected-so-it-rarely-happens way.
> 
> I for one am glad to be rid of the feeling that every time I get intimate with my wife I'm donning a virtual straight jacket. Little to no sex is something of a relief, not a burden, even though (because?) I am nominally the higher interest partner. Any ol' port in a storm sex has lost its luster. A good book is just as enjoyable.


Got it! To be honest, I would just do it for the physical relief (I hate porn) but also because I still fancy my wife, but I must say that not having to carry the big burden of a very troublesome and unsatisfactory sexual relationship has been one of the best things of my life... so, I get it 100%.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I for one am glad to be rid of the feeling that every time I get intimate with my wife I'm donning a virtual straight jacket.


Have you ever stopped playing pretend and allowed her to actually put you in a real straight jacket?


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## AGoodFlogging (Dec 19, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps you misunderstand.
> 
> I am not the poster coming here looking for answers as to why my spouse is no longer interested in sex, I AM the spouse no longer interested in sex. When I say not interested, I don't mean in a repulsed or avoid it at all costs sort of way, just a it-is-now-never-expected-so-it-rarely-happens way.
> 
> I for one am glad to be rid of the feeling that every time I get intimate with my wife I'm donning a virtual straight jacket. Little to no sex is something of a relief, not a burden, even though (because?) I am nominally the higher interest partner. Any ol' port in a storm sex has lost its luster. A good book is just as enjoyable.


Is that all a round about way of saying you have accepted your fate?

That's fine btw, it's only a problem if it is a problem after all.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Indeed. Don't eat for two weeks, then tell me how much you enjoyed that bone I threw your way.


Be that person that won't go two weeks without eating. That's the obvious best choice.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

AGoodFlogging said:


> Is that all a round about way of saying you have accepted your fate?
> 
> That's fine btw, it's only a problem if it is a problem after all.


Yes.

I accepted the fate of our sexual mismatch some time ago. This was a bit of an unexpected side effect that I perhaps should have seem coming. 

So far, it's working for me. It does not seem to be causing her too much distress either, although there is a moratorium on talking about our sex life at home any longer since it brings only tears and no solutions.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Be that person that won't go two weeks without eating. That's the obvious best choice.


Yes, but that requires you to want the food offered. Otherwise, a good fast may not seem so bad.

As callous as it sounds, recall that I can get sex within reason whenever I want. Which lately is not at all.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Going back to the topic... there is a lot of truth in the mantra "look at yourself in the mirror first"... if only. I didn't really do that, I didn't want to know, I was perfect. Sure, the communication issues didn't help, but I didn't stop one second to think... what if it's me? Of course, that was 15 years ago and I'm a different person now, but I was blind. I didn't want to see. I didn't think. I was just angry it was happening to me. My abandonment issues didn't help me, but I didn't even know I had issues.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

TXTrini said:


> No. He's above us plebs.


I'm not above anyone. One thing I know for sure though. When a healthy man prefers "reading a good book" to making love to his wife- that ain't a healthy marriage. Further, it's safe to assume that said man is taking care of his sexual needs via porn and masturbation.

I'm rooting for Cletus' wife here. Go ahead and hate me for it. I'm sure she's suffering over the "twice this year" problem and she quite obviously is not the type to self-satisfy (probably believes it would offend God). I hope she learns of his porn use, leaves him, and finds a man who loves her and enjoys marital sex with her.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yes.
> 
> I accepted the fate of our sexual mismatch some time ago. This was a bit of an unexpected side effect that I perhaps should have seem coming.
> 
> So far, it's working for me. It does not seem to be causing her too much distress either, although there is a moratorium on talking about our sex life at home any longer since it brings only tears and no solutions.


I read your story, and I might have missed this, but, did you two lay everything out and have a heart-to-heart about everything? I find it really sad, to just give up and live in limbo after so long together. My ex and I never had children, so maybe that's why I don't understand the dynamics of co-existing because of shared kids and grandkids.

What if one of you decided to cheat to fulfill needs that are unaddressed? Will that change anything? I remember how it felt, while I waited for my exH to come back to me. It was like I was marking time waiting to die (before I knew about the affair). 



In Absentia said:


> Going back to the topic... there is a lot of truth in the mantra "look at yourself in the mirror first"... if only. I didn't really do that, I didn't want to know, I was perfect. Sure, the communication issues didn't help, but I didn't stop one second to think... what if it's me? Of course, that was 15 years ago and I'm a different person now, but I was blind. I didn't want to see. I didn't think. I was just angry it was happening to me. My abandonment issues didn't help me, but I didn't even know I had issues.


Does it really matter anyway (for your marriage, personal development is always great)? Your situation is a bit different b/c of your wife's mental illness.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

lifeistooshort said:


> I can see that...I know I very much look forward to sex and I don't know if I'm going to orgasm. Sometimes I'm pretty sure I will, sometimes I don't think I will but then I do, and sometimes I know I'm not going to. I look forward to sex anyway.
> 
> So then maybe the issue is that some people equate orgasms with good sex and don't know what other signs to look for?


Even if I could never orgasm with my partner, I still would absolutely NEED to be able to have sex and express myself sexually with him regularly.
Even if my partner couldn't "get hard" or do PIV with me, I would still absolutely NEED to regularly have other sexual contact with him in some way.

It's NOT the orgasm that makes sex so special and intimate (although that does add to it, and I love orgasms!!)...it's the vulnerability, the openness, the sharing, the connection that makes sex valuable for couples to share, and what makes it such a necessary part of a committed relationship for ME.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Going back to the topic... there is a lot of truth in the mantra "look at yourself in the mirror first"... if only. I didn't really do that, I didn't want to know, I was perfect. Sure, the communication issues didn't help, but I didn't stop one second to think... what if it's me? Of course, that was 15 years ago and I'm a different person now, but I was blind. I didn't want to see. I didn't think. I was just angry it was happening to me. My abandonment issues didn't help me, but I didn't even know I had issues.


I don't know if you HAD actually handled things differently that they would have turned out any better for you...there is more going on with your wife's loss of sexual interest than just YOUR attitude.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I don't know if you HAD actually handled things differently that they would have turned out any better for you...there is more going on with your wife's loss of sexual interest than just YOUR attitude.


I do agree... probably, the outcome would have been the same. She did say we were 50/50 to blame...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> I read your story, and I might have missed this, but, did you two lay everything out and have a heart-to-heart about everything? I find it really sad, to just give up and live in limbo after so long together. My ex and I never had children, so maybe that's why I don't understand the dynamics of co-existing because of shared kids and grandkids.


Yes, many times - so many that I have called a complete moratorium on the topic. I do not have the desire or patience to keep dredging up unresolvable problems that only serve to make two people upset about something that they cannot fix. The best answer I can give here is that sex makes our marriage worse, not better, at least from my perspective. Probably not from hers, since she more or less got almost everything she wanted for decades - but definitely for me. 



> What if one of you decided to cheat to fulfill needs that are unaddressed? Will that change anything? I remember how it felt, while I waited for my exH to come back to me. It was like I was marking time waiting to die (before I knew about the affair).


One of us did just that in a stupid, impulsive moment. It wasn't enough to make either of us decide to terminate the marriage, but it didn't change the stalemate.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm not above anyone. One thing I know for sure though. When a healthy man prefers "reading a good book" to making love to his wife- that ain't a healthy marriage. Further, it's safe to assume that said man is taking care of his sexual needs via porn and masturbation.
> 
> I'm rooting for Cletus' wife here. Go ahead and hate me for it. I'm sure she's suffering over the "twice this year" problem and she quite obviously is not the type to self-satisfy (probably believes it would offend God). I hope she learns of his porn use, leaves him, and finds a man who loves her and enjoys marital sex with her.


Awww, that's _sooo _ sweet of you. 

Love you too hun. I'd have my wife put in a prayer for your kind thoughts, but as she's an atheist, well, that would only scratch the surface of what you don't know.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yes, many times - so many that I have called a complete moratorium on the topic. I do not have the desire or patience to keep dredging up unresolvable problems that only serve to make two people upset about something that they cannot fix. The best answer I can give here is that sex makes our marriage worse, not better, at least from my perspective. Probably not from hers, since she more or less got almost everything she wanted for decades - but definitely for me.
> 
> One of us did just that in a stupid, impulsive moment. It wasn't enough to make either of us decide to terminate the marriage, but it didn't change the stalemate.


I'm sorry to hear that, it just seems like such a huge waste of life and pain. I know I held on despite everything not just bc I still loved my ex, but I was also afraid of change. I couldn't imagine life without him then, but I'm much happier now. I remember feeling that I was marking time until I died, it wasn't a good feeling. It sounds like you both have considered everything and made your choices.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

TXTrini said:


> I'm sorry to hear that, it just seems like such a huge waste of life and pain. I know I held on despite everything not just bc I still loved my ex, but I was also afraid of change. I couldn't imagine life without him then, but I'm much happier now. I remember feeling that I was marking time until I died, it wasn't a good feeling. It sounds like you both have considered everything and made your choices.


I've been in the same position, but I'm getting absolutely nothing from my marriage now, so it's time for different choices. But I do understand. A lot.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> I've been in the same position, but I'm getting absolutely nothing from my marriage now, so it's time for different choices. But I do understand. A lot.


That's certainly not my situation. I have a good marriage that gives both of us some but not all of what we need - which I suspect is true for just about every decent marriage on the planet. I'm not living in constant frustration or resentment for me or my spouse being who we are - what would be the point? 

If I knew at 22 what I know today, I would have done things differently. But I did not, and don't see the need to undo all of the good for the bad.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Cletus said:


> That's certainly not my situation. I have a good marriage that gives both of us some but not all of what we need


Obviously, your wife hasn't detached, but I guess she is not suffering from mental issues either (I really don't know this). Sex gives me the ultimate connection I need. Maybe I would put up with it if my wife gave me 50% of what I need. It's 0 right now. I was 22 too.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Yes, but that requires you to want the food offered. Otherwise, a good fast may not seem so bad.


That would also be a scarcity mindset. There's a LOT of "food" being offered out there, to appeal to any taste.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I guess an "eye for an eye" huh Cletus? She can't/won't satisfy you so you purposefully only give it to her twice per quarter. Surprised the feminists aren't on here crying foul.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess an "eye for an eye" huh Cletus? She can't/won't satisfy you so you purposefully only give it to her twice per quarter. Surprised the feminists aren't on here crying foul.


How many times can you be wrong in one day?

I have not turned her down for sex in at least two years. Nor her me.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Cletus said:


> How many times can you be wrong in one day?
> 
> I have not turned her down for sex in at least two years. Nor her me.


I think we've established here on TAM that hubbies not or rarely initiating is cruel punishment to a wife. Have we not? So, you're still guilty of some passive aggressive behavior towards your wife. Come on... don't deny it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> I think we've established here on TAM that hubbies not or rarely initiating is cruel punishment to a wife. Have we not?


No, we have not.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> How many times can you be wrong in one day?


MY thoughts exactly...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm rooting for Cletus' wife here. Go ahead and hate me for it. I'm sure she's suffering over the "twice this year" problem and she quite obviously is not the type to self-satisfy (probably believes it would offend God). I hope she learns of his porn use, leaves him, and finds a man who loves her and enjoys marital sex with her.





CatholicDad said:


> I guess an "eye for an eye" huh Cletus? She can't/won't satisfy you so you purposefully only give it to her twice per quarter. Surprised the feminists aren't on here crying foul.





CatholicDad said:


> I think we've established here on TAM that hubbies not or rarely initiating is cruel punishment to a wife. Have we not? So, you're still guilty of some passive aggressive behavior towards your wife. Come on... don't deny it.


Reading what you are writing on here actually sounds like you are posting solely to be contentious...which I find UGLY.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> That's certainly not my situation. I have a good marriage that gives both of us some but not all of what we need - which I suspect is true for just about every decent marriage on the planet. I'm not living in constant frustration or resentment for me or my spouse being who we are - what would be the point?
> 
> If I knew at 22 what I know today, I would have done things differently. But I did not, and don't see the need to undo all of the good for the bad.


And I think there are plenty of people who agree with you and choose their marriage even when it doesn't fulfill all their needs. It's actually a very traditional way of seeing marriage and commitment, and I am glad it works for you both and you are happy.

If you think about it, ALL marriages are like this, because there is no way all of our needs can be met all of the time in any relationship...so each person/couple must decide which needs are the ones we are in a committed relationship to have met by our partner, and which ones we are willing to let go of and live without or have met some other way.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> I'm sorry to hear that, it just seems like such a huge waste of life and pain. I know I  held on despite everything not just bc I still loved my ex, but I was also afraid of change. I couldn't imagine life without him then, but I'm much happier now. I remember feeling that I was marking time until I died, it wasn't a good feeling. It sounds like you both have considered everything and made your choices.


This was VERY similar to my situation as well. My spirit was wilting and I didn't want to admit it to myself...I saw it as a weakness at first that I actually had needs that I couldn't meet on my own or find a way to do without. Sometimes I still question my strength and if I was being selfish and unfair to him (although I know clearly now that it was BAD for my spirit to stay in my unloving marriage).

I am naturally cheerful, giving, and warm...now I can look back and see that living with my STBX took those attributes away, because I was being smothered without actually dying from it. I spent so much time lowering my expectations and crossing my own boundaries that I was only a shadow of the person I was in the beginning of our marriage. I would have given up almost anything if I could have had my happier marriage back. Most of the time I'm glad I stopped wasting my time hoping for him to turn back into the man I fell in love with...but sometimes I do still wonder if I should have been stronger and given up MORE.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> This was VERY similar to my situation as well. My spirit was wilting and I didn't want to admit it to myself...*I saw it as a weakness at first that I actually had needs that I couldn't meet on my own or find a way to do without. * Sometimes I still question my strength and if I was being selfish and unfair to him (although I know clearly now that it was BAD for my spirit to stay in my unloving marriage).
> 
> I am naturally cheerful, giving, and warm...now I can look back and see that* living with my STBX took those attributes away, because I was being smothered without actually dying from it. * I spent so much time lowering my expectations and crossing my own boundaries that I was only a shadow of the person I was in the beginning of our marriage. I would have given up almost anything if I could have had my happier marriage back. *Most of the time I'm glad I stopped wasting my time hoping for him to turn back into the man I fell in love with...but sometimes I do still wonder if I should have been stronger and given up MORE.*


You and I share similar outlooks. I also thought that marriage = commitment, and you don't give up EVER if you can fix it. Unfortunately, there's no half-assing it, you need both present & fighting. Like you, I gave too much and put everyone else's needs above my own to the point where I felt selfish to have any. 

I actually became physically ill, and I did become a shadow of my former self to the point where I lacked the confidence to do ANYTHING, even leave my damned house. I've traveled globally alone since I was 16 y/o for school, work, etc, lived in a non-English-speaking country, learned (and forgot) 3 other languages. 

Life is for living, and for people who show up to live it. It's hard AF to pick yourself up and move forward into the unknown, but what's the point in waking up every day if you're just going to accept the **** shoveled your way?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

LisaDiane said:


> And I think there are plenty of people who agree with you and choose their marriage even when it doesn't fulfill all their needs. It's actually a very traditional way of seeing marriage and commitment, and I am glad it works for you both and you are happy.
> 
> If you think about it, ALL marriages are like this, because there is no way all of our needs can be met all of the time in any relationship...so each person/couple must decide which needs are the ones we are in a committed relationship to have met by our partner, and which ones we are willing to let go of and live without or have met some other way.


Thank GOODNESS that Batman puts up with my (lack of) cooking skills!

And while I could talk pop-culture and make his head explode, my brother is a better fit for that!

Basically, no idea how ole Bats sticks around 

@Cletus strikes me as a savvy type though and based on what he's expressed about his dynamic and marriage, there seems to be a level of acceptance in terms of the sexual relationship that is perhaps balanced out through other qualities that both him and his wife appreciate in one another, and have stuck together following infidelity, too. It may not be suited to 'others' but it doesn't need to be. @Cletus do you mind, or take issue with, this post?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

CatholicDad said:


> I guess an "eye for an eye" huh Cletus? She can't/won't satisfy you so you purposefully only give it to her twice per quarter. Surprised the feminists aren't on here crying foul.


While I wouldn't 'label' myself a feminist, I will cry foul to the use of your wording though as 'give it to her' smacks of disrespect and denotes that his wife is a passive participant. There's also the connotation of lacking understanding of both equitable connection and of Cletus' dynamic.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> *Life is for living, and for people who show up to live it.* It's hard AF to pick yourself up and move forward into the unknown, but what's the point in waking up every day if you're just going to accept the **** shoveled your way?


I think this is absolutely BRILLIANT!!!!!!


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> I think this is absolutely BRILLIANT!!!!!!


Girl, I tell myself that every time I feel discouraged, everyone deals with some kind of crap or the other, right?


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

heartsbeating said:


> While I wouldn't 'label' myself a feminist, I will cry foul to the use of your wording though as 'give it to her' smacks of disrespect and denotes that his wife is a passive participant. There's also the connotation of lacking understanding of both equitable connection and of Cletus' dynamic.


I think certain people were hoping for a more dramatic response. Why bother?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

TXTrini said:


> Girl, I tell myself that every time I feel discouraged, everyone deals with some kind of crap or the other, right?


Have I told you I think you are AWESOME...??? 🤗


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

TXTrini said:


> You and I share similar outlooks. I also thought that marriage = commitment, and you don't give up EVER if you can fix it. Unfortunately, there's no half-assing it, you need both present & fighting. Like you, I gave too much and put everyone else's needs above my own to the point where I felt selfish to have any.
> 
> I actually became physically ill, and I did become a shadow of my former self to the point where I lacked the confidence to do ANYTHING, even leave my damned house. I've traveled globally alone since I was 16 y/o for school, work, etc, lived in a non-English-speaking country, learned (and forgot) 3 other languages.
> 
> Life is for living, and for people who show up to live it. It's hard AF to pick yourself up and move forward into the unknown, but what's the point in waking up every day if you're just going to accept the **** shoveled your way?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

TXTrini said:


> I had this talk with my bf many times before he understood. I am the HD, but it's not about orgasm. The activity is pleasurable and intimate enough, orgasms are like other women mentioned, the icing on the cake. I honestly don't think men should get hung up on women's orgasms if they are content otherwise, in my case, that puts additional pressure and quite frankly kills the enjoyment.


I'm not quite sure how to reconcile the "Men pressure women into faking orgasms in order to satisfy their own ego" meme with everything else I read on the internet about how "orgasm gaps", "men who don't focus on giving the woman women an orgasm are selfish lovers", "men are bad at sex", etc, etc. that I see everywhere.

I believe it to be true. But even this topic started with @lifeistooshort assuming that if women don't want to have sex, they must not be having orgasms. 

Which is it?


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

heartsbeating said:


> While I wouldn't 'label' myself a feminist, I will cry foul to the use of your wording though as 'give it to her' smacks of disrespect and denotes that his wife is a passive participant. There's also the connotation of lacking understanding of both equitable connection and of Cletus' dynamic.


Fair enough. I was rushing when I wrote this. I'll reiterate that no one seems to care about Cletus' wife here- even the women. Here we have a passive aggressive hubby (Cletus) that only initiates twice per quarter. His poor wife has some sort of sexual hang-up- I'll grant you that. She's even been in tears about it on numerous occasions per Cletus. Regardless, isn't she as deserving as anyone to receive sexual gratification from her hubby? He simply refuses, because she won't perform _all _of the acts he desires- just missionary sex it sounds like.

I mean is this how marriage works? You won't do things my way- so I'll shut down sexually on you. Isn't that what people decry here on TAM daily. I suppose the "logic" here is that she gets what she deserves- since she is unable (or unwilling) to perform like a porn star.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

CatholicDad said:


> Fair enough. I was rushing when I wrote this. I'll reiterate that no one seems to care about Cletus' wife here- even the women. Here we have a passive aggressive hubby (Cletus) that only initiates twice per quarter. His poor wife has some sort of sexual hang-up- I'll grant you that. She's even been in tears about it on numerous occasions per Cletus. Regardless, isn't she as deserving as anyone to receive sexual gratification from her hubby? He simply refuses, because she won't perform _all _of the acts he desires- just missionary sex it sounds like.
> 
> I mean is this how marriage works? You won't do things my way- so I'll shut down sexually on you. Isn't that what people decry here on TAM daily. I suppose the "logic" here is that she gets what she deserves- since she is unable (or unwilling) to perform like a porn star.


Yeah, NO...I have very little sympathy for anyone who has to live with their consequences. Empathy, sure. I'm really sorry that she is unhappy with her consequences. However, she still deserves them and has to deal with them...just like everyone else.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

LisaDiane said:


> Have I told you I think you are AWESOME...??? 🤗


Thanks, I needed to hear that today. Dealing with stuff 😟


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm not quite sure how to reconcile the "Men pressure women into faking orgasms in order to satisfy their own ego" meme with everything else I read on the internet about how "orgasm gaps", "men who don't focus on giving the woman women an orgasm are selfish lovers", "men are bad at sex", etc, etc. that I see everywhere.
> 
> I believe it to be true. But even this topic started with @lifeistooshort assuming that if women don't want to have sex, they must not be having orgasms.
> 
> Which is it?


Who knows? Different answers for different men/women in question? I can only speak for myself in this relationship.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

I think the TAM answer is get your skill up such that in the event she either wants an O right off the bat or starts wanting one midway through you can pull it off. 

Definitely in conflict with Reddit but maybe it’s more of the userbases of the two platforms being a bit different.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> Yeah, NO...I have very little sympathy for anyone who has to live with their consequences. Empathy, sure. I'm really sorry that she is unhappy with her consequences. However, she still deserves them and has to deal with them...just like everyone else.


Your point is definitely on-topic for the thread. If your spouse has lost that Lovin' Feeling because of something over which you have control, then you share the blame for that situation.

Where it gets muddy is determining when something is within your control. I don't subscribe to the notion that we all just pick and choose our sexual preferences, so sometimes dealing with the consequences really just means two incompatible spouses equally at "fault". We collectively can argue all day about what is normal in human sexuality, but normal means nothing to the individual. 

So, in a case like mine, one spouse can take one for the team for a long time, but eventually it just wears them out. Still, the advice to get hormones checked, hire a PI, snoop the phone is all completely off the mark.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Gabriel said:


> I think there is some natural decline given our age (roughly 50), so if she lost 40-50 lbs it's not like I'd be screwing like in college.
> 
> Frankly, it's not even a huge frustration for me. I'm more concerned about her long term health than I am about sex. She should be motivated to live past 65-70 years old.
> 
> ...


Is there some reason WHY she put on so much weight? Seems strange to go from being a physical trainer to COMPLETELY giving up any physical activity or stay in shape.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Your point is definitely on-topic for the thread. If your spouse has lost that Lovin' Feeling because of something over which you have control, then you share the blame for that situation.
> 
> Where it gets muddy is determining when something is within your control. I don't subscribe to the notion that we all just pick and choose our sexual preferences, so sometimes dealing with the consequences really just means two incompatible spouses equally at "fault". We collectively can argue all day about what is normal in human sexuality, but normal means nothing to the individual.
> 
> *So, in a case like mine, one spouse can take one for the team for a long time, but eventually it just wears them out.* Still, the advice to get hormones checked, hire a PI, snoop the phone is all completely off the mark.


I guess this is where my attitude differs from some others who have gone through issues like this -- I just never view giving of myself sexually to my committed partner "taking one for the team". Him choosing ME to have sex with met my basic sexual needs to begin with, and I was always less picky with HOW.

I certainly expected meeting any more specific sexual needs to be reciprocated by him at other times if that's what I wanted, but meeting his sexual needs was ALWAYS an enjoyable, desired part of our sexual relationship for me.

And actually that's how I felt about meeting most of his other needs as well in our relationship, not just the sexual ones.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

jlg07 said:


> Is there some reason WHY she put on so much weight? Seems strange to go from being a physical trainer to COMPLETELY giving up any physical activity or stay in shape.


She is broken in some ways, and once it started going downhill it was like a snowball. She was a trainer from about 2009-2012. The last year of that she lost confidence in getting new clients because she gained weight so just served existing ones until they eventually stopped. She was up and down, but mostly up in weight from there. The pandemic finished her off - she probably gained 30-40 lbs this last year.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> I guess this is where my attitude differs from some others who have gone through issues like this -- I just never view giving of myself sexually to my committed partner "taking one for the team". Him choosing ME to have sex with met my basic sexual needs to begin with, and I was always less picky with HOW.


Taking one for the team was meant to convey the how, not the what. As in, two people with very different sexual styles, and one of them defers almost completely to the other to keep the peace. It was not a case of not wanting sex with a spouse, it was more a case of wanting much more from your sex life with your spouse they they can give. 

Your position seems to be "any sex with a loving partner is good enough", and a lot of people seem to be reflecting that opinion. Perhaps most of them have never been in a relationship with a huge sexual gap? Or perhaps I'm the outlier here. But hell, I'm not even remotely kinky - I think I'm just looking for pretty basic stuff here. 

So I'll be very blunt here - when sex with your spouse becomes hardly any more, or even possibly less enjoyable than sex with yourself, where's the drive to continue? And as I said before - I recognize my marital obligation to be there when requested, since one-sided loss of interest is not carte blanche to end the sexual relationship. I am specifically referring to loss of DESIRE.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Taking one for the team was meant to convey the how, not the what. As in, two people with very different sexual styles, and one of them defers almost completely to the other to keep the peace. It was not a case of not wanting sex with a spouse, it was more a case of wanting much more from your sex life with your spouse they they can give.
> 
> Your position seems to be "any sex with a loving partner is good enough", and a lot of people seem to be reflecting that opinion. Perhaps most of them have never been in a relationship with a huge sexual gap? Or perhaps I'm the outlier here. But hell, I'm not even remotely kinky - I think I'm just looking for pretty basic stuff here.
> 
> So I'll be very blunt here - when sex with your spouse becomes hardly any more, or even possibly less enjoyable than sex with yourself, where's the drive to continue? And as I said before - I recognize my marital obligation to be there when requested, since one-sided loss of interest is not carte blanche to end the sexual relationship. I am specifically referring to loss of DESIRE.


Yes, I understood you. What I actually meant was that the HOW of maintaining my partner's desire for me was what I wanted to give, without limit.

So my overriding desire was to give HIM the sex life that pleased and excited him, thereby (hopefully) ensuring that he would continue to desire me and give me exciting sexual intimacy.

For ME, any sex was good sex pretty much. But what I didn't consider ever as "taking one for the team" was meeting any sexual need that he told me he had. I was mostly happy and excited to do anything that turned HIM on.

Of course...that didn't matter to him, what he really wanted was for me to leave him alone with porn and his hand.

So maybe in a way, he COULD say that our problem WAS all MY fault because I wasn't actually sexually satisfied giving him what HE wanted sexually at all...that by me desiring sexual intimacy with him in MY way, I was denying him what he really needed to enjoy himself sexually...

Where do you draw the line, I wonder...??

I gave him what he wanted, but I just didn't feel in love with him anymore once the sex went away, and couldn't pretend that I did. And that's what he blames me for.

According to HIM, I was the selfish partner.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> She is broken in some ways, and once it started going downhill it was like a snowball. She was a trainer from about 2009-2012. The last year of that she lost confidence in getting new clients because she gained weight so just served existing ones until they eventually stopped. She was up and down, but mostly up in weight from there. The pandemic finished her off - *she probably gained 30-40 lbs this last year*.


My wife did the same... when you start getting a hanging belly (sorry for the graphic description), you know there is no way back. In my wife's case it's all in her head: body image (she always had this, even when she was thin), depression, OCD, total lack of self esteem. She is very intelligent (she has 2 degrees), but somehow she has this inferiority complex. Empty nest syndrome was the nail in the coffin (so to speak). 3 years ago, she left our bedroom to never return...


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

In Absentia said:


> My wife did the same... when you start getting a hanging belly (sorry for the graphic description), you know there is no way back. In my wife's case it's all in her head: body image (she always had this, even when she was thin), depression, OCD, total lack of self esteem. She is very intelligent (she has 2 degrees), but somehow she has this inferiority complex. Empty nest syndrome was the nail in the coffin (so to speak). 3 years ago, she left our bedroom to never return...


I'm sorry to hear that. At some point very soon, I'm going to have to have a serious talk with my wife about her health. She "knows", but can't seem to ever stick with anything. And the road to climb just keeps getting longer. We still sleep in the same bed and have sex maybe once every 3-4 weeks. But it's not a gratifying situation.

There's always an excuse - sometimes it's childbirth (20 years ago), sometimes menopause, sometimes work stress. She needs an intervention.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Gabriel said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. At some point very soon, I'm going to have to have a serious talk with my wife about her health. She "knows", but can't seem to ever stick with anything. And the road to climb just keeps getting longer. We still sleep in the same bed and have sex maybe once every 3-4 weeks. But it's not a gratifying situation.
> 
> There's always an excuse - sometimes it's childbirth (20 years ago), sometimes menopause, sometimes work stress. She needs an intervention.


It's very tough. I feel for you. I've been there and, unfortunately, failed. I hope you have more luck than me, although you probably need a miracle...  sorry, I shouldn't really joke about this.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Taking one for the team was meant to convey the how, not the what. As in, two people with very different sexual styles, and one of them defers almost completely to the other to keep the peace. It was not a case of not wanting sex with a spouse, it was more a case of wanting much more from your sex life with your spouse they they can give.
> 
> Your position seems to be "any sex with a loving partner is good enough", and a lot of people seem to be reflecting that opinion. Perhaps most of them have never been in a relationship with a huge sexual gap? Or perhaps I'm the outlier here. But hell, I'm not even remotely kinky - I think I'm just looking for pretty basic stuff here.
> 
> So I'll be very blunt here - when sex with your spouse becomes hardly any more, or even possibly less enjoyable than sex with yourself, where's the drive to continue? And as I said before - I recognize my marital obligation to be there when requested, since one-sided loss of interest is not carte blanche to end the sexual relationship. I am specifically referring to loss of DESIRE.


What I keep seeing with you is that your wife only trusts you just so far with her body. I would find it so, so hurtful if my husband had put limits on where I could touch him.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> What I keep seeing with you is that your wife only trusts you just so far with her body. I would find it so, so hurtful if my husband had put limits on where I could touch him.


No one has ever stated it exactly like this, but yes, to both points. That's what I mean when I call it straight-jacket sex.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> No one has ever stated it exactly like this, but yes, to both points. That's what I mean when I call it straight-jacket sex.


@Cletus I think you are missing out on a potentially hot, crazy and really non-vanilla lifestyle if you would be willing to embrace it. In sex shops they do sell thick leather mittens (kind of look like boxing gloves) that can be locked onto your wrists. Not only would this prevent you from touching your wife, you can't even touch yourself! I mean there is an opportunity for things to get really wild.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> @Cletus I think you are missing out on a potentially hot, crazy and really non-vanilla lifestyle if you would be willing to embrace it. In sex shops they do sell thick leather mittens (kind of look like boxing gloves) that can be locked onto your wrists. Not only would this prevent you from touching your wife, you can't even touch yourself! I mean there is an opportunity for things to get really wild.


My Anthony Hopkins impression still needs some work.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> My Anthony Hopkins impression still needs some work.


It is one thing to have your hands free and not be allowed to touch. It may create a whole new dynamic to have your hands actually restrained so that your wife knows that you can't touch. 

Seriously. On Amazon handcuffs and sets of under-the-mattress hand/feet restraints are among the best selling sex novelties. Perhaps that is because some folks fear being touched in ways that makes them feel uncomfortable and restraining a partner might enable them to open up and expand on some repertoire in the bedroom. 

Have you ever let her tie up your hands? Given how much you talk about not being allowed to touch it would seem like such an obvious thing to try.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

badsanta said:


> It is one thing to have your hands free and not be allowed to touch. It may create a whole new dynamic to have your hands actually restrained so that your wife knows that you can't touch.
> 
> Seriously. On Amazon handcuffs and sets of under-the-mattress hand/feet restraints are among the best selling sex novelties. Perhaps that is because some folks fear being touched in ways that makes them feel uncomfortable and restraining a partner might enable them to open up and expand on some repertoire in the bedroom.
> 
> Have you ever let her tie up your hands? Given how much you talk about not being allowed to touch it would seem like such an obvious thing to try.


(sounds of crickets chirping)

@Cletus have you ever asked your wife if she would be interested in tying you up?


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

If you could be single again, without a divorce and all that mess...just kind of snap your fingers like Thanos and you and your wife are no longer married, nor any entangling relationship (children) and you are free to pursue whatever interests with whatever women, men, rubber playthings, would you do it? 

Or is the straightjacket sex good enough?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you could be single again, without a divorce and all that mess...just kind of snap your fingers like Thanos and you and your wife are no longer married, nor any entangling relationship (children) and you are free to pursue whatever interests with whatever women, men, rubber playthings, would you do it?


If the snap could happen today, I probably wouldn't do it. I don't think that I would reenter the dating pool today if I were suddenly single, for any reason. It would serve no purpose. 

If the snap could have happened in 1985, then yes, I would. Fully realizing that the road untraveled is just as likely to have other bumps just as severe, I would avoid a sexually mismatched marriage as a young man. That's why I am an unrelenting proponent of sex before marriage.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> (sounds of crickets chirping)
> 
> @Cletus have you ever asked your wife if she would be interested in tying you up?


No doubt your heart is in the right place, but that proposal would be dead on arrival. It would, with 100% certainty, get a raised eyebrow and a "Why on earth would anyone want to do that?"


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> (sounds of crickets chirping)
> 
> @Cletus have you ever asked your wife if she would be interested in tying you up?


I'm guessing that would make missionary a little difficult to pull off. Also, it's not like she has Roman hands. Just what would either one get out of this?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> If the snap could happen today, I probably wouldn't do it. I don't think that I would reenter the dating pool today if I were suddenly single, for any reason. It would serve no purpose.
> 
> If the snap could have happened in 1985, then yes, I would. Fully realizing that the road untraveled is just as likely to have other bumps just as severe, I would avoid a sexually mismatched marriage as a young man. That's why I am an unrelenting proponent of sex before marriage.


Even then stuff changes. I was banging my girlfriend (now wife) 2-5 times a day for a long time maybe a year. I was like yeah... this is it! Then years later 1-3x a month.

As a young man did I have any complaints? Nope, zero.

Still, I guess it is better than showing up at your honeymoon and nothing happens as we read on here fairly often. At least in my case it took years for things to degrade.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> Even then stuff changes. I was banging my girlfriend (now wife) 2-5 times a day for a long time maybe a year. I was like yeah... this is it! Then years later 1-3x a month.
> 
> As a young man did I have any complaints? Nope, zero.
> 
> Still, I guess it is better than showing up at your honeymoon and nothing happens as we read on here fairly often. At least in my case it took years for things to degrade.


My STBX told me constantly when we were first together how much he LOVED sex and wanted to try all kinds of things, and how important sex was to love and our relationship...


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

LisaDiane said:


> My STBX told me constantly when we were first together how much he LOVED sex and wanted to try all kinds of things, and how important sex was to love and our relationship...


I didn’t so much tell it as showed it if you know what I’m saying.

Now I’m all about the show AND tell.

My frequency and quality now is actually nothing to sneeze at and my wife deserves a medal however I am a horny mofo and it’s still not quite enough. I think where we’re at with frequency now I can’t really do anything to improve it without stirring the pot again really hard. Been trying to decide for the last couple months if it worth taking that damage, so far no.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> *I'm guessing that would make missionary a little difficult to pull off.* Also, it's not like she has Roman hands. Just what would either one get out of this?


*Exactly!* If she doesn't want to be touched and @Cletus is tied up, she will have to expand her repertoire. She will likely have to be on top and may enjoy that control that position allows for her. 

I think the OP should ask her to try it. I mean it is not like he has anything to lose!

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> No doubt your heart is in the right place, but that proposal would be dead on arrival. It would, with 100% certainty, get a raised eyebrow and a "Why on earth would anyone want to do that?"


That would not be DOA, sounds like the start of some sexy dirty talk if you ask me. If she opposes have some Amazon reviews of the respective product ready to read to her and if you think people are stupid at least you will have a good laugh together. ... a few minutes later she will be game to try it as a way to just joke around using a few dusty old suit ties from your closet.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> *Exactly!* If she doesn't want to be touched and @Cletus is tied up, she will have to expand her repertoire. She will likely have to be on top and may enjoy that control that position allows for her.
> 
> I think the OP should ask her to try it. I mean it is not like he has anything to lose!
> 
> Badsanta


I see where you are coming from. Now, go back to the start line and reassess the route. In 35 years, this woman has consistently turned down any and all efforts to change up her style. If Cletus had ever thought she would go for cowgirl, he would have bought her a gold-plated saddle.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I didn’t so much tell it as showed it if you know what I’m saying.
> 
> Now I’m all about the show AND tell.
> 
> My frequency and quality now is actually nothing to sneeze at and my wife deserves a medal however I am a horny mofo and it’s still not quite enough. I think where we’re at with frequency now I can’t really do anything to improve it without stirring the pot again really hard. Been trying to decide for the last couple months if it worth taking that damage, so far no.


He started out delivering on his "opinions"...it wasn't until we had moved in together that problems started to creep in. And since he would never actually be honest with me (about anything) -- and because there was no TAM, and I had no computer yet! Lol!! -- and I was foolish enough to believe in his words, he was able to confuse and mislead me for a little longer before I was able to confidently understand that he didn't actually value sex with a partner like he said he did.

Breaking out of the SHAME I felt made it very, very difficult to face that as well.

And trying to revisit the frequency issue with her is probably going to be like a tight wire act for you - you don't want to push TOO hard and risk losing what you've already gained.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> I see where you are coming from. Now, go back to the start line and reassess the route. In 35 years, this woman has consistently turned down any and all efforts to change up her style. If Cletus had ever thought she would go for cowgirl, he would have bought her a gold-plated saddle.


Some therapists recommend even when there is an unreconcilable issue, that couples should never give up on working towards solving it.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> Some therapists recommend even when there is an unreconcilable issue, that couples should never give up on working towards solving it.


But the disappointment of trying and trying, and NEVER getting your partner to budge at all, can be painful enough to make continuing the relationship almost impossible.

At some point, ACCEPTANCE of the reality is what allows the marriage to continue.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

LisaDiane said:


> But the disappointment of trying and trying, and NEVER getting your partner to budge at all, can be painful enough to make continuing the relationship almost impossible.
> 
> At some point, ACCEPTANCE of the reality is what allows the marriage to continue.


I would debate that what @Cletus and his wife are doing right now is NOT very ACCEPTING of one another. If anything they are cranking up the pain of rejecting one another and perhaps @Cletus is now taking pleasure in seeing his wife suffer in the manner she makes him suffer. 

I don't know what world you live in, but NO. I wouldn't wish your form of accepting that onto my worst enemy.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Blondilocks said:


> I see where you are coming from. Now, go back to the start line and reassess the route. In 35 years, this woman has consistently turned down any and all efforts to change up her style. If Cletus had ever thought she would go for cowgirl, he would have bought her a gold-plated saddle.


He will NEVER reassess any route HE believes should work, no matter how many times it leads to failure.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

badsanta said:


> I would debate that what @Cletus and his wife are doing right now is NOT very ACCEPTING of one another. If anything they are cranking up the pain of rejecting one another and perhaps @Cletus is now taking pleasure in seeing his wife suffer in the manner she makes him suffer.


As has been pointed out to you many times, in many different situations, YOUR way does not work for many couples.
Your advice is great in many situations, but sometimes you seem unwilling to want to understand couples who are suffering and choose a DIFFERENT manner to handle it than what YOU believe is best.



badsanta said:


> *I don't know what world you live in*, but NO. I wouldn't wish your form of accepting that onto my worst enemy.


You don't need to respond to me like this...I wasn't challenging you, I was offering a different perspective. Which is just as valid as yours is.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

LisaDiane said:


> But the disappointment of trying and trying, and NEVER getting your partner to budge at all, can be painful enough to make continuing the relationship almost impossible.
> 
> At some point, ACCEPTANCE of the reality is what allows the marriage to continue.


This is sadly a good summary. 

What each accepts combined with the whole picture does vary.

I'd have a flat spot on my head from banging my head on the wall, if good bi-directional communication was happening yet still no improvements. 🙂🙂🙂


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> This is sadly a good summary.
> 
> What each accepts combined with the whole picture does vary.
> 
> I'd have a flat spot on my head from banging my head on the wall, if good bi-directional communication was happening yet still no improvements. 🙂🙂🙂


Yes, and the PAIN of being with someone who makes it crystal clear that your needs don't matter at all to them, coupled with the frustration, can make people choose paths that others who don't understand what it's like would never choose.

I, myself, would NEVER be able to stay in a marriage like that (and I didn't). However, MY choice isn't what is right for everyone.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

LisaDiane said:


> My STBX told me constantly when we were first together how much he LOVED sex and wanted to try all kinds of things, and how important sex was to love and our relationship...


This topic hasn't come up in a while, so I always have to clarify.

Sleeping with your prospective mate before marriage does not guarantee 50 years of marital sexual bliss. 

It only takes the temperature of your baseline compatibility. It is necessary but insufficient information for how happy your sex life will be going forward before you need to file for divorce as the only remedy. 

Outcome #1 - you find that you are more-or-less compatible in the bedroom. Please pass Go and collect your $200 dollars. You may go bankrupt in the future - no guarantees.

Outcome #2 - you find that you do not have a shared view of what constitutes a mutually satisfying sexual relationship. Go your merry way and try again. The chances of this improving over time are non-zero, but fraught with potential for issues down the road.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> *Exactly!* If she doesn't want to be touched and @Cletus is tied up, she will have to expand her repertoire. She will likely have to be on top and may enjoy that control that position allows for her.


She will take the top - missionary is her preferred, and face-to-face is absolutely required, but this has always been acceptable. Her stamina is limited, though, to about 10 minutes.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> She will take the top - missionary is her preferred, and face-to-face is absolutely required, but this has always been acceptable. Her stamina is limited, though, to about 10 minutes.


Wow, that is a revelation, Cletus! You've been holding out on us.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> Wow, that is a revelation, Cletus! You've been holding out on us.


Perhaps I have not been clear. This has been in our repertoire since our honeymoon, even though we may only use it 10% of the time.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Cletus said:


> If the snap could happen today, I probably wouldn't do it. I don't think that I would reenter the dating pool today if I were suddenly single, for any reason. It would serve no purpose.
> 
> If the snap could have happened in 1985, then yes, I would. Fully realizing that the road untraveled is just as likely to have other bumps just as severe, I would avoid a sexually mismatched marriage as a young man. That's why I am an unrelenting proponent of sex before marriage.


Unfortunately, sex before marriage is no indication of marital bliss in the bedroom. Probably best not to get married, so if things get dull, you can pack up.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Unfortunately, sex before marriage is no indication of marital bliss in the bedroom. Probably best not to get married, so if things get dull, you can pack up.


See reply above. It is necessary but insufficient. The converse is absolutely true - difficulties with sex before marriage guarantee future trouble.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Unfortunately, sex before marriage is no indication of marital bliss in the bedroom. Probably best not to get married, so if things get dull, you can pack up.


It's not really about being "dull" for most couples with this problem, it's about being monogamous with someone who suddenly wants to change the sexual dynamic and refuses to care about or consider their spouse's needs and how their change in desire affects them.

It's a VERY different problem than just boredom or things getting dull.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Unfortunately, sex before marriage is no indication of marital bliss in the bedroom. Probably best not to get married, so if things get dull, you can pack up.


Imo, and I know people are different and all points are equal in what works for them...(whew!)

I can share DW and I had only an approx 90 day relationship before marriage, that period of my youth we had sex as a target everytime got together. I know we had sex approximately 70 times. I was traveling for work some of that time, so had some time apart.

We did know we were sexually compatible at least. 36 yrs later I'm still learning more. 👍👍😉😉


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Unfortunately, sex before marriage is no indication of marital bliss in the bedroom. Probably best not to get married, so if things get dull, you can pack up.


Oh right, we see so many healthy children coming from unmarried, long term relationships. And of course, boys without fathers in the home always grow up to be saints.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Let me get this straight. 

Wife loves you and cares for you ✔
Wife is pleasant to be around ✔
Wife orgasms easily and is available for sex whenever you want ✔
Paid off mortgage ✔
Good job as an engineer ✔
Two great kids ✔

... still unhappy??

Maybe you've been given so many gifts in life you're stirring up trouble over nothing?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> She will take the top - missionary is her preferred, and face-to-face is absolutely required, but this has always been acceptable. Her stamina is limited, though, to about 10 minutes.


Men sometimes use numbing creams to improve stamina. How about you place a dab of that just in the right spot so that it transfers onto your wife and increases her stamina or even goes so far to give her anorgasmia/frustration? 

I mean if you want to diminish your wife's pleasure by starving her for affection, there are more playful ways to go about that. If you have read Schnarch you understand the concept how the dynamic of sexual sadism can sometimes be the needed tool to spark development. You are already engaged in that by denying her sex and causing pain. Why not do that in a way that is with a little better sportsmanship and playful? 

Badsanta

PS: Some philosophers argue that pleasure is exclusively experienced as relief from suffering. So @Cletus that sounds as if you are positioned to give your wife an unreasonable amount pleasure! So put in some effort and get creative with how you relieve things so that it is not overwhelming.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

CatholicDad said:


> Let me get this straight.
> 
> Wife loves you and cares for you ✔
> Wife is pleasant to be around ✔
> ...


When this problem became a problem :

Wife loves you and cares for you ✔
Wife is pleasant to be around ✔

Wife orgasms easily and is available for sex whenever you want ⍻ 
Paid off mortgage ⍻ 
Good job as an engineer ⍻ 
Two great kids ⍻ 

It's not like I invented this out of the blue because I was bored one day 35 years into my marriage. This became an obvious problem on day 2 of our marriage. I might think you would be a little more supportive of someone who thought enough of the sanctity of the institution to remain with it for this long. 

One gets the feeling that your position is that any spouse should find acceptable sex of any kind in their relationship, as long as it is offered, as "good enough". 

Well, screw that. You want your spouse to want to bed you? Be good in bed.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

CatholicDad said:


> Oh right, we see so many healthy children coming from unmarried, long term relationships. And of course, boys without fathers in the home always grow up to be saints.


I agree if you bring children into the equation, marriage is certainly preferable. But, with the divorce rate as it is, why bother nowadays. Kids are overrated anyways.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So @Cletus how exactly does your wife respond when you talk to her about the nature of intimacy in your marriage and have you told her that you need for things to change? 

I am not sure if you have gone into detail on this but I am assuming she gets upset and shuts down this type of conversation or just finds ways to make communication on this topic impossible. 

In my marriage there used to be a HUGE problem when it came to communicating our issues with one another as both of us would become very defensive and upset over topics related to improving intimacy. My wife even got to the point where she felt like if we had one more argument that would be it and she couldn't take it anymore. I however didn't give up and just accept this to be an irreconcilable issue. One of the things I did was to tell my wife that if she refused further arguments that I would start reading books and we could discuss some of the topic as they were written about in the books. Because my wife loves to read she agreed to this but insisted that I could only read well reviewed books by author's with a PHD in medicine or psychology. She insisted that books written by authors without a doctorate degree was likely going to be unhelpful (which looking back I tend to agree). At first this felt like a fools errand because she refused to read any of these books herself and it felt she was just allowing me to read as a solution to prevent arguments. @Cletus you seem well read so I assume you went through this phase as well. For me after reading these books, I would often start out conversations with my wife by pointing out my own faults that I needed to work on and this was extremely validating for her because admittedly I am not perfect. These conversation ultimately lead themselves for her to admit the same and we would come up with strategies to help each other work on our issues and better ourselves. Most of these issues were inherently nonsexual but mostly related to an inability to communicate in a way to calmly discuss and address problematic issues. 

For example you can't insist that your wife has a problem and that it needs to be corrected. You can take the exact same issue and shift the perspective to describe it as your own problem and ask your wife to help you. For example you can tell your wife that you really struggle with not being able to touch her and ask her to help you with that. Have you ever confronted the issue in that manner? If so, what does she say?

Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So @Cletus how did Mother's Day go for you two?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

badsanta said:


> So @Cletus how did Mother's Day go for you two?


Wife was out of town with her mother. Our celebration is next weekend with our children.

You realize that you are trying to solve a problem that I am no longer looking to fix, right?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> You realize that you are trying to solve a problem that I am no longer looking to fix, right?


That is my specialty!

Part of a successful marriage is learning to embrace failure as something that creates a personal challenge that is transformed into a playful adventure. 

OK, so you know the quality of sex for your marriage in terms of variety is going to be a failure. You are limited to missionary, looking towards another and no touching anything. 

I look at that and I might ask, well OK what are your ears doing? Have you ever tried dirty talking with one another? If your wife wouldn't like that, perhaps it could improve her stamina by knocking her just off her game a little to make things last more than ten minutes. As in you tell her everywhere you would want to touch her and fondle every part of her body with just words and not your hands! Hello!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

badsanta said:


> That is my specialty!
> 
> Part of a successful marriage is learning to embrace failure as something that creates a personal challenge that is transformed into a playful adventure.
> 
> ...


What makes you think he didn't try that 34 1/2 years ago?

Your heart is in the right place, Billy Bob. You just have a wee bit of a problem with taking no for an answer. I'm sure your wife has pointed this out to you (on a number of occasions).


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> What makes you think he didn't try that 34 1/2 years ago?
> 
> Your heart is in the right place, Billy Bob. You just have a wee bit of a problem with taking no for an answer. I'm sure your wife has pointed this out to you (on a number of occasions).


For what it's worth, I agree with @badsanta. @Cletus shouldn't quit given he appears to love his wife and vice versa. Like Sisyphus.... just keep trying to push that rock up the hill. We'll all be in our graves in the next couple decades. Selflessly loving someone... is noble, good, and true.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> What makes you think he didn't try that 34 1/2 years ago?
> 
> Your heart is in the right place, Billy Bob. You just have a wee bit of a problem with taking no for an answer. I'm sure your wife has pointed this out to you (on a number of occasions).


According to you, @Cletus actually has a golden saddle already!

If there is one thing my wife compliments me on it would be my persistence and not giving up on challenges. She has admitted that from her perspective that sex is something not that important and that she would have missed out on much of what that experience has to offer had I not been so persistent over the years. 

So @Blondilocks in your opinion why is Cletus here? To serve as an example of refusing to solve problems and tell everyone there is no point to even trying? He does make a good point in that most common efforts are off base and often misguided solutions that do nothing to actually solve problems.

My particular thing I noticed is asking what his wife says when they communicate on this topic. Perhaps he answered that years ago and doesn't care to anymore. I would still be interested to hear that answer. Particularly if he has talked to her in the context of drastically reducing his interest in working to correct things. Generally speaking those who care the least have all the power, so @Cletus has indeed positioned himself to now have some of that power for the first time in a significant way. Should he use that power to try and improve things or just continue his prolonged passive aggressive tantrum and embrace a sexually frustrated solitude of just not wanting it anymore?

If he really didn't want it, in my opinion his issue would be at peace and he would have no need to post here on TAM. 

Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I gave up thinking that @Cletus was going to solve the issue(s). I observed he was ok with still taking up the challenge when he feels like it. To address in a way not to let the whole thing blow up his life choices or circumstances if you will.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> For what it's worth, I agree with @badsanta. @Cletus shouldn't quit given he appears to love his wife and vice versa. Like Sisyphus.... just keep trying to push that rock up the hill. We'll all be in our graves in the next couple decades.* Selflessly loving someone... is noble, good, and true.*


How do you figure continually badgering a person to do something they have repeatedly told you that they don't want to do equals selfless love? How does repeatedly making your spouse feel 'not good enough' equal selfless love?

Maybe, you're thinking it's Cletus' job to make his wife become a selfless lover so that then she can be considered noble, good and true. Sorry, I doubt his wife would give a rat's patoot what you consider to be noble, good and true.

Some people are into games and some aren't. Some people spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing about sex and some don't.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I think, and @Cletus can correct me if needed, that he and W have struck a certain balance. The balance isn't in the middle, but it works apparently sufficiently.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I started this thread not to get help, but to serve as a counterpoint to the endless drumbeat of advice given here about why a spouse might lose interest in sex - not to rekindle my love life at home. 

Constantly pushing your spouse to become better at something is to constantly tell them that they are not good enough, no matter how lovingly presented (and as anyone who has been around here a while knows, excessive empathy is not my Achilles heal). It wears your partner out. I wears you out.

Even if your partner is willing to do things you desire, if you can see it sucking the life out of them for the effort, continuing to push on that thread becomes abusive at some point. You may get the "thing" you desire, but the cost is too great to consider it a win. You are sacrificing your good for theirs, so ultimately you wind up with neither. But at the other end of the debate, I am who I am as well - I did my part for a long time and operated under severe flight restrictions. Does anyone really expect that not to eventually cost me my interest too? 

No one here is denying their spouse. If this living situation becomes untenable, we will have to deal with it going forward. So far, everyone seems content enough to let sleeping dogs lie that took decades to put to bed in the first place.

Why am I still posting here? That's a good question. Perhaps I should reconsider if I have anything useful to offer any longer.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> How do you figure continually badgering a person to do something they have repeatedly told you that they don't want to do equals selfless love? How does repeatedly making your spouse feel 'not good enough' equal selfless love?
> 
> Maybe, you're thinking it's Cletus' job to make his wife become a selfless lover so that then she can be considered noble, good and true. Sorry, I doubt his wife would give a rat's patoot what you consider to be noble, good and true.
> 
> Some people are into games and some aren't. Some people spend an inordinate amount of time obsessing about sex and some don't.


I never said badger anyone. Just thought next time he makes love to her he might push the envelop another millimeter or two. Or he could try to be super romantic... bring flowers for no reason, woo her like the old days, take her on a trip or two to someplace beautiful.... 

Badgering or even discussing a desired sex act never works... but there is sure nothing wrong with setting the stage and then seeing what happens. Isn't that what a good love life is- exploring new "frontiers". By "frontiers" I'm not talking about some gross kink either... rather, kissing her a little more deeply, starting into her eyes.... maybe just seeing her a little differently. Hope that makes sense. That's all I'm advocating here.

Are these games? Every romantic thing a hubby tries is a "game"? If so, I'm guilty... aren't we all?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Constantly pushing your spouse to become better at something is to constantly tell them that they are not good enough, no matter how lovingly presented (and as anyone who has been around here a while knows, excessive empathy is not my Achilles heal). It wears your partner out. I wears you out.


My wife used to complain to no end that I made her feel inadequate and as if she would never be enough. I kept pushing for things to get better and never gave up on us. One thing that I observed that changed with my pushiness over the years was that I focused on the positive. For every problem there is, life is exactly like algebra in that you can flip a negative to the other side of the equation and make it into a positive. For example instead of apologizing for something being difficult you can say thanks for the patience needed to work on something. So @Cletus instead of complaining that your wife has a body that you can't touch, have you ever thanked her for having a body that you would want to touch? 

By shifting things around a bit you can be pushy in a positive way that actually serves to build somebody up as opposed to being critically pushy in a way that tears somebody down. 

These days instead of my wife feeling inadequate and if she is not enough, I have empowered her to feel overconfident and that it is me that is not strong enough to handle her overwhelming awesomeness. And she now owns that! I would try to give myself some credit to that, but she would laugh and claim it herself as if I did nothing. 



Badsanta


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Cletus said:


> I started this thread not to get help, but to serve as a counterpoint to the endless drumbeat of advice given here about why a spouse might lose interest in sex - not to rekindle my love life at home.
> 
> Constantly pushing your spouse to become better at something is to constantly tell them that they are not good enough, no matter how lovingly presented (and as anyone who has been around here a while knows, excessive empathy is not my Achilles heal). It wears your partner out. I wears you out.
> 
> ...


I'd say imho you do. Absolutely.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

Cletus said:


> Why am I still posting here? That's a good question. Perhaps I should reconsider if I have anything useful to offer any longer.


Think it over and then decide YES, YOU DO. 

Your lack of excessive empathy makes you a very rare and valuable poster!!!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I agree with @badsanta here. You certainly will never benefit from trying to sit someone down and talk to them about your needs (i.e. how they are inadequate at fulfilling them). 

I get the feeling that after lovemaking you're probably a bit pissed off and cold, albeit imperceptible to most- but no doubt your wife is very aware of it (even if you are doing all the right things, saying all the right things, and being polite). Women are mind readers about emotions... you know that right?

Maybe if you truly try to love her, celebrate her, enjoy her- the situation may improve. You're too focused on the 10% talents she doesn't have and not the 90% talents she does have.

If she won't let you kiss her somewhere- kiss her where you can and enjoy it. Kiss her hand, or arm, or wrist- frequently. Perhaps after a nice dinner and a bottle of wine and she's very used to you kissing her arm, sneak a kiss on her stomach... you get the idea. She says no then smile and laugh and crack a joke "but your stomach looks too delicious".

Admittedly, this may not get you anywhere except that on your death bed you can say "I loved my wife and never quit on her".


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I agree with @badsanta here. You certainly will never benefit from trying to sit someone down and talk to them about your needs (i.e. how they are inadequate at fulfilling them).


Since @Cletus wife allows no touching, one could wonder what happens when she visits the OBGYN. Based on the OP's feedback I guess her doctor's are required to wear a straight jacket and perhaps a blindfold too while she tells them what they need to know during routine visits. Or perhaps that part of life goes about completely normal for her. If so, I could suggest a costume and role play scenario for @Cletus to play doctor with his wife. He will still need to work on his Dr. Hannibal Lecter impression and somehow convert a mechanical wheelchair into an unassuming hand truck that he can control. 



I shouldn't make fun, but some couples do like role play. If his wife has no problem going to the doctor perhaps that actually would make a good role play conversation for the two of them. Otherwise why would a complete stranger with a medical degree be trusted to touch and a loving husband not? 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'd add that I had the pleasure of waking my wife up this morning which meant (fully clothed) I laid on her from behind and proceeded to kiss her neck, arms, back, and low back. I also routinely grab and squeeze her legs/thighs/buttocks- etc. I tend to do these things so routinely outside of lovemaking that I can't imagine my wife pulling back or saying "no" to these simple acts of attraction and love. We were fully clothed and a toddler in the next room so I wasn't going for sex. I kiss her all over because I like it and want to. This seems like a natural course of action after holding her throughout the night.

My thought is doing these things routinely outside of lovemaking leads to these things when lovemaking- right?

Can't imagine a woman that prefers sex as just "stick it in".. if that's what is being dealt with- well I'm sure sorry to hear. If so, she must have some serious resentments/issues then too.

I guess I'd better leave this alone... I'm sure like always I'm being super offensive in my assumptions.


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