# Men as leaders



## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

In an attempt to avoid a total thread jack I thought I would start a different thread to ask the question:

Do women want their men to lead them? 
If yes, is this biological imperative or social construction. 

On a side ntoe: how do emotional displays impact the interaction between men and women. 

My personal argument is that some women do want that, but not all women. And I don’t believe that there is a biological reason that men must lead a family. Instead, I think there are a variety of way to form a family and as long as all parties agree then there is nothing wrong with it. 

I also disagree with the premise that because someone is a man they have the ability to lead me just because I am a woman. Nor do I automatically want a leader in my relationship. I personally want a partner. I want decisions to made and problems to be solved together, using all resources at hand. I don’t need or crave a leader, and I definitely don’t want a follower. I have no problem with people wanting that dynamic, I just don’t believe there is some biological imperative that puts men ahead of women. 

*Sidenote: it has occurred to me that @DudeInProgress thinks I was calling his argument toxic masculinity. It wasn’t your argument that I was referring to. I don’t agree with your argument, but I don’t think it’s toxic.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

manowar said:


> these arguments contain two fallacies. (1) The fallacy of Subjectivism and (2) the Ad Hominen .


 1) Go on...
2) While I will admit it is an ad hominem, it is not necessarily a fallacy nor was it used as an argument. It was more of a request/command.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think most women want a guy they can trust to handle things. We tend to feel vulnerable and become anxious if our guy doesn't step up to handle business.

So do I want a leader? If by that we mean do I want a guy to make the decisions and inform me then absolutely not.

But a guy who is willing and able to take charge when it's called for is awfully attractive.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

I agree with everything you wrote. There is no biological imperative that puts men ahead of women in the realm of leadership in a relationship. I know women who want nothing more than to find a man who will lead. I know others who the mere mention of a man leading sends them into a tailspin. It's not an issue of right or wrong but what two people are comfortable with in their relationship and in most situations.

The problem I see is that although _some_ men (I can't say most or all) would say they would love that dynamic, _most_ are not mentally or emotionally capable (or willing) to carry the load of the responsibility for all of the household/family decisions on their shoulders. Sometimes decisions have bad consequences. A true leader bears the brunt of those consequences while also finding solutions. 

I have always been told that I am a natural born leader. Having been forced to lead myself since my divorce (and ****ing flourishing if I do say so myself) I don't want or need to be lead. Instead, I'll settle for a man with strong boundaries who is capable of taking responsibility for his actions. If I can find someone like that who wants to "lead" then so be it. My mother always told me "your father is the head of this house.....but I am the neck".


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

manowar said:


> Now that's a good response. You called me out on this as you should.
> 
> Here are a few off the top of my head.
> 
> ...


Obviously I haven’t had time to read your sources (well done on providing them though). But here’s sone questions for you:

1) Do your sources actually comment on leadership with solid evidence? 

Well actually, that’s my only question. Because that’s what I am debating. I already agree with you that men and women are different, both in terms of brain and body. But is there anything in those difference that suggest women should want to be lead or that men should want to lead. I don’t think that there is. I instead think that it’s social construct that has been and continues to be dismantled as women gain more economic independence. And I think that’s a good for thing for women. Women can make very good leaders, either in spite of or because of those differences. I also think most women don’t want a boss, they want a partner. And to be honest, the men I know are looking for the same thing. They are looking for an equal.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Let’s start with this equal partner idea.
There is no such thing as a 50-50 relationship, it doesn’t work that way. It’s always 51-49 or 55-45, 60-40, etc. that doesn’t mean someone barks orders and the other one complies And it doesn’t mean that one person has a greater value or worth as a human than the other.
But at the end of the day, someone is always the leader and someone always has the final say. And for the men: if you think you’re marriage is 50-50, it isn’t you.

I like the captain / first officer analogy. The captain is primary leader and is ultimately responsible for the ship/aircraft. The first officer is a trusted and valued partner who collaborates with and often advises the captain. They share the same mission and are both critical and respected leaders. But there’s only one captain.

The VAST majority of women expect their husbands to be the leader in the relationship. I’ve never seen it work out well in reverse. And every time I’ve seen the reverse, it tends to end badly.
Now, I put the responsibility of this largely on the men. This all assumes that the man is actually competent and taking responsibility to be an effective leader and partner and husband for his wife. When the man is a drunken or ineffective captain, I totally understand women’s negative reactions.

Women generally don’t want to be the captain, they want their husband to carry that responsibility. When wives end up in the captain’s chair (either because they thought they wanted it or because their husband wasn’t leading effectively), they tend to lose respect for their husband and build resentment.

So yes, women respect and are attracted to strong, competent men who can lead. Men who she feels safe with and can handle a crisis.
I’m sure there are exceptions to this, but everything I’ve ever seen, read and experienced strongly indicate that this is the reality MOST of the time for MOST people.

**Edited to add:
As for the question/argument about whether it’s biological or social construct. I don’t care. It’s evolutionary, innate, nearly universal and clearly much more than a social construct. To what extent, don’t know.

And I don’t care because I am much more interested in helping people operate more effectively and have better relationships within the bounds of current reality, rather than trying to reimagine masculinity, femininity and intersexual dynamics.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

BlueWoman



BlueWoman said:


> 1) Do your sources actually comment on leadership with solid evidence?


 the first one does. The others are tough going. Im sure they discuss leadership qualities because its a big part of it.



BlueWoman said:


> But is there anything in those difference that suggest women should want to be lead or that men should want to lead. I don’t think that there is. I instead think that it’s social construct that has been and continues to be dismantled as women gain more economic independence.


Again. It comes down to nature. We disagree on the social construct. Dude set it out pretty well. Women look to men for leadership. It's evolutionary and biological. Women (not all. Not you probably) test guys on these very qualities to weed out the weak, the agreeable, the unsure. Women flat out want guys who are sure of themselves. This stuff is Psych 101. 

What's your belief in Natures, Essences, Forms? 



BlueWoman said:


> Women can make very good leaders, either in spite of or because of those differences.



Hypothetical: You are stranded on a mountain with a guy who is seemingly normal. Like in Alive. Ever see that movie? He turns to you and says what should we do. Get me out of here. I don't know what to do. Is this what you expect? Do you say. Follow me. And lead him out. Later he says What are we going to eat. He doesn't know how to build a shelter or even a fire. He asks you to build a fire. Day two you are attacked by an animal. He hides behind you for protection.

Comon --- Am I making my point. Are you attracted to that guy? Don't forget you are the leader. Don't claim you want equality. In my experience, Women make horrible leaders. the worst. that's TV. 



BlueWoman said:


> I also think most women don’t want a boss, they want a partner. And to be honest, the men I know are looking for the same thing. They are *looking for an equal.*


Agree no one wants a boss. Women want a dominant but not domineering man. Looking for equal -- here is the construct. However, in your individual case - it's possible for a variety of reasons. You might be like my sister. She likes to get men to do things for her. Do it yourself projects/pay bills. the current clown even bought a car. She says "the man cares about me and values me". But the guy in reality is weak and doesn't stand up for himself. He falls into line fast. Afraid of losing her. She'll tell you he stands up for himself because he may have said No on a couple of occasions. But she doesn't know better because of her expectations of what men are and especially what they are supposed to do for her. This is her mindset. She has a Princess mentality rooted in her upbringing. I personally screen for this and disqualify this kind of woman quickly. I can pick a Princess out in a minute. He says hey we have an equal relationship. But once he stops doing what she wants he'll be in for a shock. So my point is sis looks for what we call here "Nice Guys". This guy doesn't lead. The last thing sis wants is a leader. In fact an Alpha, won't put up with her.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think most women want a guy they can trust to handle things. We tend to feel vulnerable and become anxious if our guy doesn't step up to handle business.
> 
> So do I want a leader? If by that we mean do I want a guy to make the decisions and inform me then absolutely not.
> 
> But a guy who is willing and able to take charge when it's called for is awfully attractive.


All of this ^^. As usual, LITS sums it up perfectly.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Social Constructs -- she's/he's my best friend. We're soulmates.

this is girl talk impressed upon men. Friends are Likes. Lovers are opposites. I truly believe the best friend notion between husband/wife came about by LD - Low Sex Drive women - who didn't want to have sex with their husbands. After all best friends don't have sex with each other.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The problem many women have who decided that their husband would be the leader, take care of everything, make the decisions -- is that if the marrige ends, by divorce or death, they are **** out of luck and can't even run their own life.


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## coquille (May 8, 2018)

BlueWoman said:


> In an attempt to avoid a total thread jack I thought I would start a different thread to ask the question:
> 
> Do women want their men to lead them?
> If yes, is this biological imperative or social construction.
> ...


I agree with you on all levels. A partnership. Equality does not mean similarity. Equality in difference. 
Probably the only place where I would like him to lead is the bedroom. I find it very attractive and a turn on.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BlueWoman said:


> In an attempt to avoid a total thread jack I thought I would start a different thread to ask the question:
> 
> Do women want their men to lead them?
> If yes, is this biological imperative or social construction.
> ...


My opinion is this. First of all lead doesn't mean be the boss, which a lot of people mistake for. I think lots of women are attracted to leaders or assertive men. Being an assertive man I never really worried if my wife wanted to me to lead or not. I am just assertive. We have a partnership, but in a crisis or when it comes to making decisions with at times she struggles with narrowing that down I have no problem taking that responsibility. I will also bring things to her attention, like we should do this. Or it's time for us to start thinking about this. Which works because she often does that about more micro thinks concerning the home. 

So I guess my point is - Women don't necessarily want leaders but I believe a great majority are attracted to them, but again that is not - I am the king of the castle do what I say. Though I think a lot of people mistake it for that, including a lot of women.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Livvie said:


> The problem many women have who decided that their husband would be the leader, take care of everything, make the decisions -- is that if the marrige ends, by divorce or death, they are **** out of luck and can't even run their own life.


If that’s the case, they did it wrong.

A man leading the marriage/family does not mean all powerful man who does all things takes care of all things and makes all decisions single-handedly, and a helpless wife who can’t do anything without him. That’s not what anyone is talking about here, or at least I’m not.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

By the way my wife is a director who handles a team of over 10 people, and accounts in the hundreds of millions of dollars. She doesn't need me to do anything for her and was well established when I met her. If I died tomorrow as far as taking care of herself she would be fine. She is also the most competent person I have ever met, man or women. Astronaut level. I have never once been intimidated by that in the sense that I couldn't keep up, though I did know at the beginning I needed to step up my game. I love that she kicks ass, and I like liked challenge of being that women's husband. I often play her wing man and am proud to do it. It's also very obvious at times that she wants me to take over and I will. She is also my wing man at times. How can that not reflect well on me. I will never understand people who feel like if their spouse shines it diminishes them.

I feel I lead by keeping our house safe, planing for our future, creating fun for us, keeping my wife feeling safe and calm and relaxed and looked after, and even challenging her when I think she is wrong but in a respectful way because it's best for the marriage.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

manowar said:


> Women flat out want guys who are sure of themselves. This stuff is Psych 101.


Wanting a man who is sure of himself does not mean we want to be lead. It means _ we want a man who is sure of himself_. I associate with mostly strong, responsible women. They want to associate with other strong, responsible people, in general. No one likes a milk toast. 




> Hypothetical: You are stranded on a mountain with a guy who is seemingly normal. Like in Alive. Ever see that movie? He turns to you and says what should we do. Get me out of here. I don't know what to do. Is this what you expect? Do you say. Follow me. And lead him out. Later he says What are we going to eat. He doesn't know how to build a shelter or even a fire. He asks you to build a fire. Day two you are attacked by an animal. He hides behind you for protection.
> 
> Comon --- Am I making my point. Are you attracted to that guy? Don't forget you are the leader. Don't claim you want equality. In my experience, Women make horrible leaders. the worst. that's TV.


Dude! That's sounds like someone with no survival instincts who I would lose quick regardless of gender. It's called team work for a reason. If you don't contribute to the solution you're dead weight and useless to me. Again, this is regardless of gender. 

I, as a woman, would not be sitting there saying "you with a penis, please save me". I'd be proactively tossing out ideas because my survival instinct is strong. Maybe it's because I've never been the beautiful rose of the bunch and have never had the luxury of playing the damsel in distress or maybe it's my strong problem solving skills but waiting around for a man to save me is not even a thought in my mind. That's fairy tale b.s. Real life means we have to toughen up and make decisions. 

It's been my experience that leadership is earned not assumed, regardless of gender. The more capable leader in a relationship naturally leads.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

manowar said:


> BlueWoman
> 
> 
> In my experience, Women make horrible leaders. the worst. that's TV.


I thought about writing a whole response. But if that‘s something you truly believe, then there is no discussion. My time is better served doing something else. 

Now to everyone else: That misguided misogynistic statement is why feminism exist.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

As others have said, I think women want a guy who is competent. They want someone they can look up to, even women who say they want an "equal". You want to be able to look at the dude and proudly say that's MY guy.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

The reason I don't buy the biological/Evo psych story that men are better leaders is that if that were true then all of the single women of the world would be floundering. Darwin's theory would mean single women would be dying off for lack of their ability to lead themselves and having no men to lead them. That's not happening.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

sokillme said:


> By the way my wife is a director who handles a team of over 10 people, and accounts in the hundreds of millions of dollars. She doesn't need me to do anything for her and was well established when I met her. If I died tomorrow as far as taking care of herself she would be fine. She is also the most competent person I have ever met, man or women. Astronaut level. I have never once been intimidated by that in the sense that I couldn't keep up, though I did know at the beginning I needed to step up my game. I love that she kicks ass, and I like liked challenge of being that women's husband. I often play her wing man and am proud to do it. It's also very obvious at times that she wants me to take over and I will. She is also my wing man at times. How can that not reflect well on me. I will never understand people who feel like if their spouse shines it diminishes them.


 It was just suggested that because she is a woman she is a terrible leader. The worst. Despite everything you have just said about her. 


> I feel I lead by keeping our house safe, planing for our future, creating fun for us, keeping my wife feeling safe and calm and relaxed and looked after, and even challenging her when I think she is wrong but in a respectful way because it's best for the marriage.


Well as long she agrees that you are leading then it’s working for you guys. And that’s fantastic. I like a man to do those things as well, if he‘s good at it. But in my world, it doesn’t mean he’s my leader. It means he’s my partner.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

DudeInProgress said:


> **Edited to add:
> As for the question/argument about whether it’s biological or social construct. I don’t care. It’s evolutionary, innate, nearly universal and clearly much more than a social construct. To what extent, don’t know.
> 
> And I don’t care because I am much more interested in helping people operate more effectively and have better relationships within the bounds of current reality, rather than trying to reimagine masculinity, femininity and intersexual dynamics.


Except that I don’t think you are working within of the current reality. I don’t think that ever was the reality, and it’s definitely not now. The most successful unions are ones that work together towards a common goal. And if they both don’t want that goal, then it doesn’t work. I think you are imagining the TV version of the 1950s. That’s not reality. Relationships are work, and both people in the relationship have to be on the same team with the same goal. And no one person can carry it. If you and your significant other have something that works for you, then great. But I don’t think you have enough experience or data to assume that it’s how it should work for everyone. 


Al_Bundy said:


> As others have said, I think women want a guy who is competent. They want someone they can look up to, even women who say they want an "equal". You want to be able to look at the dude and proudly say that's MY guy.


Yes, just about every woman wants a man who is competent. Don’t mature men want competent women? When there is a crisis, do you want your woman to freak out and be an emotional mess, or do you want her take care of what she can and support you in taking care of what you can?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

BlueWoman said:


> Well as long she agrees that you are leading then it’s working for you guys. And that’s fantastic. I like a man to do those things as well, if he‘s good at it. But in my world, it doesn’t mean he’s my leader. It means he’s my partner.


I think that was kind of the point all along. Most women want their husbands to lead, and expect him to be competent at it.

You seem to be getting really spun up around being led by a man, as if that means ordered around like a child or servant. No one is talking about that kind of a dynamic.

Marriage is a partnership, but someone is always more dominant/assertive/leading. There’s no such thing as a perfectly 50-50, co-equal, co-dominant relationship. that idea is a silly unrealistic social construct. 
So the question is, who sets the tone in the relationship, who drives division in the direction of the family? Yes, I know you both do – but who is ultimately responsible at the end of the day? It’s one of you, not both.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

Ok...so just my personal experience...

The relationships/marriages where the woman "wears the pants"..all seemed somewhat tainted in some way...Like there was always this underlying feeling that neither member was truly happy, it just kinda worked for them in that way...

I don't know if every relationship needs the guy to be the heavy...I disagree with that...The one's that are truly the best and most well situated, were the one's where there is more of a Yin/Yang component...Some of the most alpha males I have ever known( I know a lot of these types as a company owner myself for many years), have women/wives, that they trust more than anyone else with executive decisions, even more than any of their underlings...Men need this, even the very strong one's ...Most of these guys( myself included) can't live with meek and submissive women...It doesn't work...

I don't know if I answered your question or not...only additional point I can make is I don't think having a guys balls in a jar next to your reading glasses on the nightstand is a healthy arrangement...For either party..


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

BlueWoman said:


> Except that I don’t think you are working within of the current reality. I don’t think that ever was the reality, and it’s definitely not now. The most successful unions are ones that work together towards a common goal. And if they both don’t want that goal, then it doesn’t work. I think you are imagining the TV version of the 1950s. That’s not reality. Relationships are work, and both people in the relationship have to be on the same team with the same goal. And no one person can carry it. If you and your significant other have something that works for you, then great. But I don’t think you have enough experience or data to assume that it’s how it should work for everyone.


What are you talking about? It seems like you’re hearing things that no one is saying. 

What have I said that in any way suggests that both do not need to be working towards a common goal or that it’s not a partnership or a team?


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

DudeInProgress said:


> I think that was kind of the point all along. Most women want their husbands to lead, and expect him to be competent at it.


Except that I don’t think you are right. I think some women want that, and as long they are with a man who wants to be that, it’s great.
But I don’t think most women do want a leader. At least not educated smart women who can take care of things. I think they want a partner. And equal. 



> You seem to be getting really spun up around being led by a man, as if that means ordered around like a child or servant.
> [No one is talking about that kind of a dynamic.


Are you not paying attention? Someone is talking about that kind of dynamic? Someone is equating child like behaviors to women and adult behaviors to men. 

@sokillmes has offered his own version of leadership. But the idea is in direct contrast to that. You know the idea that a man should be able to build a shelter while the woman hides behind him crying. 



> Marriage is a partnership,


Yes


> but someone is always more dominant/assertive/leading.


 Not measurably true.


> There’s no such thing as a perfectly 50-50, co-equal, co-dominant relationship.
> So the question is, who sets the tone in the relationship, who drives division in the direction of the family? Yes, I know you both do – but who is ultimately responsible at the end of the day? It’s one of you, not both.


The adults are responsible at the end of the day. Even if it’s agreed that one person makes the decision, they both are going to be responsible for the consequences. Because they are both the adults. If I am on that desert island and I am the one who knows how to build a shelter, then at that moment, I’m the one in charge. If the person I’m with knows what shrubs to eat, then they are in charge of that. We are not going to get anything done arguing about who’s the leader, and we will do a substandard job just defaulting to the one with a penis. 

You can have any kind of relationship you want assuming that you can find someone to have that relationship with you. But despite your belief yours is not necessarily the best or even the most common way of doing it, unless you are in a society that physically suppresses women. Because that’s the only way you can guarantee that every relationship is like that. (And even then, the happy ones won’t be like that.) 

Yes, I personally like a strong man, because only a strong man can bring close to the same amount to the relationship that I bring. But what strength looks like is different to different people. To me strength is the ability to take care your Sh!t, to hold up your partner when they need it, and to lean on them when you need to. There is no leader. There are two people working together to get through life. 

I don’t know why that bothers you so much.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BlueWoman said:


> In an attempt to avoid a total thread jack I thought I would start a different thread to ask the question:
> 
> Do women want their men to lead them?
> If yes, is this biological imperative or social construction.
> ...


All modern social propriety aside, there are definitely circumstances where if a man doesn't lead, everyone loses respect for him and women find him less attractive.

Definitions are important. I don't consider a man leading the relationship to mean he knows more about everything or is better equipped for every task. 

Abuse should be ruled out of this conversation as well because abuse is it's own topic.

Biologically, there are a couple areas where men have to lead or a civilization will fall to a more barbaric or conquest minded civilization.

In a relationship, a woman can lead but will often grow to resent her mate and be sorely tempted to leave him for a more dominant man.

A more passive woman has a far better chance at successfully mating and having a successful long term relationship than a more passive man.

There are undeniable differences in men and women that are noticeable and measurable and one trait can be far more accepted in one sex than the other.

I think one good point is that a man doesn't have to lead but a man who won't or can't occasionally is certainly looked down on by both men and women.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I do find it somewhat telling that women often try to befriend men, but men don't befriend women typically...This dynamic may indicate that there are some aspects that women "need men around' for...that men don't seek the same from women

Women that "fight for power" in a relationship may do so at their own peril....Some of those traits can knock a boner in faster than anything I can think of...Again...its all about "complimentary" leadership...


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hamadryad said:


> The one's that are truly the best and most well situated, were the one's where there is more of a Yin/Yang component...


I believe that is what @BlueWoman is saying and what several other women have said about egalitarian relationships. There is no leader per se. 

Let's face it, we can't all be good at everything. 

It's been my experience that the best functioning relationships (not to be confused with most emotionally connected) both people know their roles and responsibilities and carry them out effectively and independently with little to no interference from the other. 

When it comes to family decisions, most fall under the category where one person cares and the other is "do whatever you like. I could care less either way". 

It's that tiny percent of decisions where both parties are vested that some debate is required. In my former marriage, those typically revolved around money and child rearing. Since I was the primary caregiver, I pretty much had the final say. He was the financial manager which meant i usually deferred to him on those decisions. Now I wish I hadn't but that's another story for another day.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I really don't know if it's because of the explosion in Aspergers/Autism spectrum disorders among men in the last few decades, and the additional issue of a precipitous and unexplained fall in natural testosterone levels, it will create a dynamic where there are a lot less of "traditional" male leaders...

I have already noticed this in the last, say 10 years or so with the male employees that work for me in this age range...They seem to defer to girlfriends and wives at a level FAR greater than we did...Like even for the friggin littlest of things...I can't fathom it, for the life of me...

I believe it's creating an uneasy and confusing period of male/female interaction...


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

BlueWoman said:


> Except that I don’t think you are right. I think some women want that, and as long they are with a man who wants to be that, it’s great.
> But I don’t think most women do want a leader. At least not educated smart women who can take care of things. I think they want a partner. And equal.
> *And I think you’re dead wrong that most women, and smart educated women don’t want their husbands to lead. And you keep conflating a husband leading to = not a partnership. Also wrong.*
> 
> ...


Responses in the thread above


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

BlueWoman said:


> It was just suggested that because she is a woman she is a terrible leader. The worst. Despite everything you have just said about her.


Who cares what was suggested, her bosses obviously don't feel that way. 



BlueWoman said:


> Well as long she agrees that you are leading then it’s working for you guys. And that’s fantastic. I like a man to do those things as well, if he‘s good at it. But in my world, it doesn’t mean he’s my leader. It means he’s my partner.


Well you are probably the type of person who hears leader and can get over the word boss. I can't help you.

We do have a partnership, sometimes I lead sometimes she does. Thing is I am going to lead regardless because that is how I am. I tried to explain to you that that doesn't mean bossing someone around, it just means getting **** done. 

Anyway both of us are secure enough in ourselves and are relationship to not get all bent out of shape over a word.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

hamadryad said:


> I really don't know if it's because of the explosion in Aspergers/Autism spectrum disorders among men in the last few decades, and the additional issue of a precipitous and unexplained fall in natural testosterone levels, it will create a dynamic where there are a lot less of "traditional" male leaders...
> 
> I have already noticed this in the last, say 10 years or so with the male employees that work for me in this age range...They seem to defer to girlfriends and wives at a level FAR greater than we did...Like even for the friggin littlest of things...I can't fathom it, for the life of me...
> 
> I believe it's creating an uneasy and confusing period of male/female interaction...


That is not the only area they fall behind. I think a lot of them defer because they can't compete. Some young men really need to up their game.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

BlueWoman said:


> Yes, I personally like a strong man, because only a strong man can bring close to the same amount to the relationship that I bring. But what strength looks like is different to different people.


This!!

There is one couple I know who I love hanging out with. She is a successful business owner, driven, intelligent, outgoing, excellent mother,. He's a very under the radar, subtle person, with a steadfast personality but he's super supportive of her in every way and she leans on him hard. This is a second marriage for both. She's a strong person but he's strong too, in all of the ways she's not. Together they are a powerhouse. She respects his opinions and actively seeks to please him, not because he's her husband and she has vows to uphold, but because he is a genuinely a great husband. He is her biggest cheerleader but at the same time a humble man. He's got her wrapped around his pinky.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Lila said:


> This!!
> 
> There is one couple I know who I love hanging out with. She is a successful business owner, driven, intelligent, outgoing, excellent mother,. He's a very under the radar, subtle person, with a steadfast personality but he's super supportive of her in every way and she leans on him hard. This is a second marriage for both. She's a strong person but he's strong too, in all of the ways she's not. Together they are a powerhouse. She respects his opinions and actively seeks to please him, not because he's her husband and she has vows to uphold, but because he is a genuinely a great husband. He is her biggest cheerleader but at the same time a humble man. He's got her wrapped around his pinky.


Which is great, and does not contradict anything I have been saying from the husband leading side of this thread.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lila said:


> This!!
> 
> There is one couple I know who I love hanging out with. She is a successful business owner, driven, intelligent, outgoing, excellent mother,. He's a very under the radar, subtle person, with a steadfast personality but he's super supportive of her in every way and she leans on him hard. This is a second marriage for both. She's a strong person but he's strong too, in all of the ways she's not. Together they are a powerhouse. She respects his opinions and actively seeks to please him, not because he's her husband and she has vows to uphold, but because he is a genuinely a great husband. He is her biggest cheerleader but at the same time a humble man. He's got her wrapped around his pinky.


This is probably close to my wife's and my dynamic, although given my opinionated posts here I suspect some would think I am a very in your face type person. My wife is much more of a high energy person then I am. I enjoy watching her do her thing and will back her up when she needs it, I will pitch in too, but I just can't stress the way she does. Now I have had a good career too, we are kind of even that way, but despite how I am here, I am much more laid back at home and in company. I also understand that she deals with a lot more stress then I do, and guilt. So a lot of my role is just reassuring her that she is doing enough. I think I am a calming influence. I don't want my wife wrapped around my pinky, I want my wife's respect but only if I earned it.

I have also said it on here before but she has thanked me more then once for challenging her though too. Some of my friends are also the type that defer and will just say they agree as to not have to deal with any confrontation. Our dynamic isn't like that so much.

Again I keep getting back to this but leadership is not telling people do this or do that, a lot of it is setting the tone and the atmosphere. It's being thoughtful and looking out for your group. Putting them in the best conditions to succeed. I really try to do that with my wife, some of that is financial, some of that is physical, and some of that is emotional. I feel that is part of my role as a husband. In that way I am going to be a leader of my marriage and I have no shame about that.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

hamadryad said:


> Ok...so just my personal experience...
> 
> The relationships/marriages where the woman "wears the pants"..all seemed somewhat tainted in some way...Like there was always this underlying feeling that neither member was truly happy, it just kinda worked for them in that way...
> 
> ...


Completely agree. With everything.


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

“Doesn’t bother me at all, you are free believe silly things if you’d like. But nice manipulation tactic.” Pot meet Kettle.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> Which is great, and does not contradict anything I have been saying from the husband leading side of this thread.


Hmmm.... I didn't post my response in reply to anything you wrote. Don't know why you would think I was trying to contradict you. 

But now that mention it, you posted this



> So yes, women respect and are attracted to strong, competent men who can lead. Men who she feels safe with and can handle a crisis.
> 
> I’m sure there are exceptions to this, but everything I’ve ever seen, read and experienced strongly indicate that this is the reality MOST of the time for MOST people.


My point is that no one can define what it means to be a "strong man" much less what if means to be a leader. My idea of a strong man is unique to me just as @BlueWoman's is to her. Looking at my friend's husband, some would say he's weak because he caters to her but if you look a little deeper, he's the rock she treasures. By your definition he's not the Captain.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> As for the question/argument about whether it’s biological or social construct. I don’t care. It’s evolutionary, innate, nearly universal and clearly much more than a social construct. To what extent, don’t know.
> 
> And I don’t care because I am much more interested in helping people operate more effectively and have better relationships within the bounds of current reality, rather than trying to reimagine masculinity, femininity and intersexual dynamics


Please tell us how you can help people operate more effectively and have better relationships if you don't know exactly the source of the problem?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Lila said:


> Hmmm.... I didn't post my response in reply to anything you wrote. Don't know why you would think I was trying to contradict you.
> 
> But now that mention it, you posted this
> 
> ...


That depends. A man can set the tone and lead his marriage, while still supporting his wife in her endeavors. Not necessarily a conflict there. As far as your friends husband, unless he is a supplicating, submissive, “nice guy”, still doesn’t necessarily contradict my point.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Lila said:


> Please tell us how you can help people operate more effectively and have better relationships if you don't know exactly the source of the problem?


Um, because every case is specific but there are some basic and fairly universal trends underlying human relationships and intersexual dynamics. And this whole discussion started on another thread trying to help a guy with his specific marriage issue. So not really sure the point you’re trying to make here…


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> Um, because every case is specific but there are some basic and fairly universal trends underlying human relationships and intersexual dynamics. And this whole discussion started on another thread trying to help a guy with his specific marriage issue. So not really sure the point you’re trying to make here…


I thought the ? at the end of my post would be the dead giveaway that i was asking a question not making a point. 

My perceptions of this topic based on my life experiences does not match your perceptions of this topic.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Lila said:


> I thought the ? at the end of my post would be the dead giveaway that i was asking a question not making a point.
> 
> My perceptions of this topic based on my life experiences does not match your perceptions of this topic.


Well, did I answer your question then?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> Well, did I answer your question then?


No but it's not necessary. I think your incredibly dismissive response to @BlueWoman will now be my response to you. _"You are free to believe silly things if you’d like."_


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

I think "boss" and "leader" are two very different things. Just as a suggestion and a command are two very different things. And from what I've seen, few people want to be in a relationship with someone who's either (a) inert and unable to set anything in motion with a suggestion, or (b) automatically resistant to anything that anyone else suggests.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

There are some women who truly want to be led (for whatever reason) and others who find the idea to be anathema. There are some women who realize the idea is important to their partner and graciously allow them to believe they are so as not to pierce their ego - they allow their men that small vanity. Whatever works for the couple.


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## hamadryad (Aug 30, 2020)

I can only speak for myself, but if you spend your entire day leading and directing, and practically nothing happens without action from you, then the last thing you want is a woman that can't take a lead on practically anything and needs or wants the man to lead....That will just completely wear him out...


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

BlueWoman said:


> 1) Go on...
> 2) While I will admit it is an ad hominem, it is not necessarily a fallacy nor was it used as an argument. It was more of a request/command.


Is it me, or are there whole posts deleted? I tried to follow the upthread and several times was sent out of the thread completely.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

manowar said:


> Hypothetical: You are stranded on a mountain with a guy who is seemingly normal. Like in Alive. Ever see that movie? He turns to you and says what should we do. Get me out of here. I don't know what to do. Is this what you expect? Do you say. Follow me. And lead him out. Later he says What are we going to eat. He doesn't know how to build a shelter or even a fire. He asks you to build a fire. Day two you are attacked by an animal. He hides behind you for protection.


I would not find this attractive in a woman either.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Lila said:


> No but it's not necessary. I think your incredibly dismissive response to @BlueWoman will now be my response to you. _"You are free to believe silly things if you’d like."_


Bless your heart


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

DudeInProgress said:


> Bless your heart


Lol, I am more blessed than I deserve to be but in good Southern fashion....I'll pray for you.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

DudeInProgress said:


> So the question is, who sets the tone in the relationship, who drives division in the direction of the family? Yes, I know you both do – but who is ultimately responsible at the end of the day? It’s one of you, not both.


I don't even know to what you are referring here. Responsible at the end of the day? For what, exactly?

She's responsible for her ****, me for mine, and the two of us together when those don't agree. She decides where we go on vacation. I run the remote, as is my God-given and evolutionary right. No one decides when to put on our super-hero Dynamic Duo capes, unless there is a spider or snake involved. Then I'd god damned well better be Thor.

But this whole "leadership thing?". Sounds so _incredibly _paternalistic. But for my leadership, this relationship would flounder about aimlessly? Bah. Though if you want that, and your wife wants that, more power to you. Far be it for me to try to generalize to your specific life.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Lila said:


> It's been my experience that the best functioning relationships (not to be confused with most emotionally connected) both people know their roles and responsibilities and carry them out effectively and independently with little to no interference from the other.


Hallelujah, sister.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hamadryad said:


> I really don't know if it's because of the explosion in Aspergers/Autism spectrum disorders among men in the last few decades, and the additional issue of a precipitous and unexplained fall in natural testosterone levels, it will create a dynamic where there are a lot less of "traditional" male leaders...
> 
> I have already noticed this in the last, say 10 years or so with the male employees that work for me in this age range...They seem to defer to girlfriends and wives at a level FAR greater than we did...Like even for the friggin littlest of things...I can't fathom it, for the life of me...
> 
> I believe it's creating an uneasy and confusing period of male/female interaction...


If only we could return to Mad Men. 

What I think happened was women figured out that they didn't have to defer to us penis owners just by virtue of having that Y chromosome.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> There are some women who truly want to be led (for whatever reason) and others who find the idea to be anathema. There are some women who realize the idea is important to their partner and graciously allow them to believe they are so as not to pierce their ego - they allow their men that small vanity. Whatever works for the couple.


I don't remember asking for your opinion. Or giving it to you, once asked. 

Uppity broad.


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## coquille (May 8, 2018)

Lila said:


> This!!
> 
> There is one couple I know who I love hanging out with. She is a successful business owner, driven, intelligent, outgoing, excellent mother,. He's a very under the radar, subtle person, with a steadfast personality but he's super supportive of her in every way and she leans on him hard. This is a second marriage for both. She's a strong person but he's strong too, in all of the ways she's not. Together they are a powerhouse. She respects his opinions and actively seeks to please him, not because he's her husband and she has vows to uphold, but because he is a genuinely a great husband. He is her biggest cheerleader but at the same time a humble man. He's got her wrapped around his pinky.


Imho it takes a lot of strength of character in a man to be a cheerleader for his wife. Most men feel the pressure from society in general and from men and women in their lives not to be cheerleaders to their wives, and a lot of men feel very threatened by an independent and intelligent woman because of all the insecurities they feel in her presence. After all, we literally raise girls to be cheerleaders to boys playing sports and flexing their muscles. 
Kudos to this guy because he figured out the definition of strength.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I don't remember asking for your opinion. Or giving it to you, once asked.
> 
> Uppity broad.


I'm glad you have finally come to appreciate one of my more outstanding characteristics.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I don't remember asking for your opinion. Or giving it to you, once asked.
> 
> Uppity broad.


You forgot to tell her to get you a sandwich.😉🤣🤣


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The implication that he would have to say it, rather than...say...having the sandwich ALREADY WAITING, really tells you all you need to know.



Lila said:


> You forgot to tell her to get you a sandwich.😉🤣🤣


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> The implication that he would have to say it, rather than...say...having the sandwich ALREADY WAITING, really tells you all you need to know.


This is what real leadership looks like.


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## pastasauce79 (Mar 21, 2018)

I don't want to be a leader. I would hate to be a supervisor or a boss. I don't like the responsibility or the pressure of leadership roles. 

At home I'm ok with my husband leading the house. It's funny but my husband asks for my opinion on many subjects and I do my own thing on my own without his opinion. 

I guess he's good at some things and I'm good at others and we together compliment each other and the result is perfect for our family. 

I don't like people doing things for me unless I ask for help. I like my husband does things I'm not good at like construction stuff, mechanical stuff, financial (he's better at investing.) I don't feel I can't manage without him, but I'm glad I don't have to do everything on my own. 

I feel I'm privileged and spoiled I'm not responsible for everything at home. 

I like it this way.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

Lila said:


> Lol, I am more blessed than I deserve to be but in good Southern fashion....I'll pray for you.


We really need an ROFL option.


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## Enigma32 (Jul 6, 2020)

I think questions like this tend to work themselves out. If a woman is the type to prefer her man be a leader then she will be attracted to that sort of man.


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## Twodecades (Apr 4, 2021)

I think there's a difference between leading in a marriage and leading in a workplace. I've experienced both good and bad leadership in both. In the workplace, from both genders. It was both more painful and more positively significant within my marriage than any workplace. My husband changed a lot for the better as he matured, which is to his credit. He was willing to learn and wanted to be a better marriage partner.

I am not the type of person who really wants to be in charge. I do it when I must, but I'm more interested in details and troubleshooting. (I realize that not all women are like me, and I think it is harder for a woman who has strong leadership tendencies to get the same respect as men.) I also don't think leadership within marriage means what a lot of men think it does. It's not a parent-child relationship.

I feel like feminism has gone too far to correct toxic attitudes towards women held in past generations and instead has left us trying to play too roles at once within a family...breadwinning AND housework AND childrearing and even sometimes yardwork/house/auto repairs and maintenance, etc. Any particular thing can be done by either gender, but all of it is too much for one person. That said, feminism was a reaction to how grossly misunderstood, undervalued, and even abused women were by men, while society looked on. It was a reaction to an imbalance. 

I don't know if any of that helped or not. Just my perspective.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

Lila said:


> The reason I don't buy the biological/Evo psych story that men are better leaders is that if that were true then all of the single women of the world would be floundering. Darwin's theory would mean single women would be dying off for lack of their ability to lead themselves and having no men to lead them. That's not happening.


Yes but Darwin didn't account for govt assistance. Without that there would be a lot of men and women dying off.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

What the heck does Darwin have to do with interpersonal relationship dynamics???


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

It's been interesting reading this thread.

For myself, I do admire, and am attracted to, men with good leadership skills. A guy who has his stuff together, handles his business and gets things done is attractive. I don't want to be in a relationship with a guy who lacks those traits. However, I also have my stuff together, handle my business and get things done. So, while I like a man who can lead, I neither need nor want him to lead _me_.

And, so far at least, this seems to work well for my husband and I. Neither of us is "the" leader. We each lead where our strengths are, with consent and input from the other. If we run into a situation where we're equally matched, then we just talk it through until we've reached a joint decision on the situation, or at least on which of us will handle the situation. Sometimes one of us doesn't care as much as the other. Sometimes one of us is willing to just let the other have it. Sometimes, we spend a long while discussing options until we settle on something that works for both of us. In crisis situations where we can't discuss options together, we both trust one another to handle things.

He's not just responsible for me. I'm not just responsible for him. We are both responsible for ourselves as well as for each other and for our family as a whole.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

I started out passive in my marriage and my wife was stressed making the decisions and me just going along with her. If she made the wrong decision that was detrimental to the family...it is her choice and thereby her fault.

She was unhappy about it, as was i with her constant prodding for me to take the helm. I woke up and took control of the ship. She is soo much happier now. She has always been the responsible person since 12yr old. Raising her 2 little brothers with mom staying with abusive spouse. She has a scar and crooked tooth due to going to fists with her dad(at 13?) when his psychotic azz turned on her little brother, while mom cowered and did nothing.

She is by no means incapable. Before we met she was living on her own and making more than I. She has chosen to be submissive because God said wives are to be submissive to their husbands.

We are opposites in most everything, except for our love, faithfulness and direction we are going. She is short and a fire cracker. I am big ole laid back country boy. I am strong in areas she is weak in and vice versa. She is 5'03 i am 6'05" but i let her thing she can still take me. Well, he wanted to be accountant so she does the bills. She would rather me do it but it is her strength so it is delegated to her. If she has question on something she comes to me and we discuss it and i make the decision. If it is bad decision it is on me.

She deferrs to me on things that may affect me and we will discuss and make the final decision. Im good with most all she might want but if i disagree, my decision stands. Most times it is her wanting to do something dangerous, like getting on a ladder 30' up repainting eves of the house. "Hell to the no! If i catch you i am going to turn you over my knee and spank that Azz! Cant take my Baby Girl getting hurt." She says you could get hurt too....i've had broken bones and can deal with it, i dont want her to experience that.

Too many women think they have to fight for power. If they will submit and love their husbands he will typically give the power to them.

Esther was submissive and loved her husband the King, when she approached him, she was not called for and could be put to death for, he said he would grant anything she asked, up to half his kingdom. He loved her.

I am the Captain of our ship, but my wife is my 1st officer. She is very capable of being at the helm and many times is because we are one.

Some speak of making a samich, my wife many times will tell me to sit down in recliner when i get home from work and she will pull off my boots and bring me a glass of iced tea while she gets dinner ready. In morning i get up and make coffee and wake her up with rubbing from neck to feet down her back. Get her robe on her and go make her a cup of coffee the way she likes and have it ready beside her place on the couch. She does submit and treats me like a King, but i love and do for her because she is my Queen. There is very little i pull rank on.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

+1 to what @Rowan said. There are probably some relationships that work with a pure lead-follow kind of thing going on but I like when my wife sometimes takes charge of things.

I don’t want a woman that defers to me for everything all the time.

When dealing with people I generally tend to go from zero to “I want to destroy you.” if they start pissing me off and it’s nice to have someone like my wife who is like, “Hold on there punchy you go sit over there let me handle this.” Many times we have achieved more from her catch more flies with honey approach over my smash through obstacles thinking.

At least for me it’s good to have balance in life and balance in my relationship.


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