# 12 year old with no respect



## downfall69

please help. my 12 year old wont listen or respect me as his father or anyone for that matter. he lies about everything and fights with me my gf and his 6 years old bother all the time. he steals whenever wherever he can.his grades in school are terrible he is at a kindergarten-grade 1 lvl. now his bother is is passing him in school.

he doesn't and never tries anything he just give's up right away it is incredibly hard to help him with homework when he wont try. he hangs around with a bad group of people that are 16-18-26 year old's i try to control it by forbidding him from seeing them but he sneaks around my back anyway. i have to work because i'm a single dad so i cant watch him 24h a day. 

the school is at a loss for words even they don't know what to do they have tried all kinds of programs.
we have seen doctors and psychologist, counselors iv'e put him on pills i have tried everything but nothing works.

this has been going on since he was about 5 years old. i keep hoping as he gets older he will snap out of it but with each day it gets worse. 

now i even have trouble punishing him because he will just fight with me all day if i try to put him in his room. after 7 years of dealing with this i'm at the end of my rope i'm thinking of placing him in a home for kids i feel like i have no choice even though i don't want to my stress level is through the roof i don't know what to do.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

You need to take him to a specialist who will check him thoroughly. Like do an MRI and heavy metal testing for instance. 
Have you considered finding part time work and going on public assistance, so that you can take care of your son before and after school? You DO have to be accountable for him 24-7, he is 12, it's your responsibility. And you can't just put a kid in a home like that. He would have to go through some kind of process with an evaluation first, to determine if he was medically qualified for inpatient/residential treatment (rare these days.) My guess is that he's been exposed to some kind of toxicity (heavy metal?) or has some kind of developmental disorder that has a neurological basis. Take him to a good clinic, like a major children's medical center. Even if it's a long haul, it's worth the trip. Parents don't get off easy with being responsible for their kids. If you don't do it, who will? He's a kid, think of what you would want your parent to do for you if you were in his shoes. You need to go the distance. Tell the gf you have to focus on the kid, if she's not going to be on board with helping you put him first, and doing what it takes she needs to go. That's the way it is. After you've done your duty by your kid, then you get to have time for someone else.


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## downfall69

i have taken him to many specialist and done many test in the last 7 years. he has a learning disability other then that they cant find anything wrong he does not like heavy metal or do durgs. and i am accountable for him 24/7 that's what iv'e been doing for the last 12 years.

i am not trying to get off easy there has been nothing EASY about this situation


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## mablenc

I think she means heavy metals as in lead poisoning. Did something traumatic happen to him? Death, divorce, bulling? When does he hang out with these older men?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifewithcrazy

downfall69 said:


> i have taken him to many specialist and done many test in the last 7 years. he has a learning disability other then that they cant find anything wrong he does not like heavy metal or do durgs. and i am accountable for him 24/7 that's what iv'e been doing for the last 12 years.
> 
> *i am not trying to get off easy there has been nothing EASY about this situation*


Downfall:

Wow, you could have been writing about my son, just a few years ago. I have been where you are, and I know how gut-wrenching it is to know that you are doing everything in your power to help your child but it doesn't seem to be working. 

Having been there, let me just say a couple of things:

Raising a child like this is the single most stressful thing I have ever been through. Between waiting up all hours of the night because he refused to come home, shedding tears because he ran away, being more angry than I knew possible when he committed another crime, or just dealing with the frustration as he flushed his potential down the drain, it was killing me. Make sure that you take care of you, or else you will not be able to do what you need to do for your child. I didn't do that and was a MESS emotionally and even physically because the high levels of stress for extended periods of time just were too much for my body to handle.

Like you, we did all the testing -- we had brain scans, met with psychologists, psychiatrists, tried meds -- and ran through the gamut of medical help available to us. None of it did a bit of good, unfortunately. There wasn't some organic cause that anybody could point to and say, "This is why he's like this." He was just one of "those" kids. In fact, everyone who knows us has always marveled, "How in the world did YOU end up with a kid like THAT?" I love my son to death, don't get me wrong, but I think he was just a "bad" kid -- has been difficult since birth, and got more difficult as the years went on. None of us could save him because he simply didn't want saved or helped. 

If it weren't for my son getting arrested my next go-to option was to file unruly charges with the court, and this is something I would suggest you look into. Here, it's as simple as going to the courthouse, filling out some paperwork, and having a brief hearing. The court then appoints the equivalent of a probation officer -- but with NO record for the child -- who adds a layer of accountability that we as parents cannot. In our state, the pseudo-PO could mandate counseling, could recommend inpatient treatment stays, could do the equivalent of Scared Straight. The main goal is to do anything and everything and exhaust every resource to "save" kids like this. 

My son got really out of control about the age that you are dealing with now, and I hate to say it just got worse and worse. He was into drugs, he was arrested for beating me, he was arrested for theft, the cops were at my house on average twice a month for something or other that he had done. I will be paying off the loans I took out to pay for treatment, pay for court costs, pay for restitution for the next ten years. I gave that kid everything I had and more....but it did absolutely no good. It didn't help that my mother -- who is diagnosed BPD with NPD traits -- has always enabled him, told him not to listen to my rules, and bailed him out when I wouldn't. He was out of control, period. The police told me on numerous occasions to lock up all my valuables because I was living with a thief. They advised me to sleep with my bedroom door locked because they said they would put nothing past him, that they could see him being one of those kids who killed the whole family while they slept. It was bad, and ugly, and draining. 

My son just turned 18 in August of this year, and in September, with nothing more than a middle finger and a lot of words that aren't forum-friendly, out the door he went and I haven't heard from him since....except the time he ended up in the hospital and wanted the insurance information and for me to pay the bill. He has gone to live with my mom, the one who above I said has always been his enabler. I know he has a roof over his head and even though she's crazy, he has a safe place to live. So far I know that she has let him drop out of school, has imposed zero rules, and has even allowed his underage girlfriend to move in -- even though the two of them are actively trying to get pregnant. I don't see how his story has a happy ending given the road he's on, but he's an adult now and he will have to leave with the choices he makes. 

I am done worrying about him. I did what I could, got him to 18, and it's out of my hands now. I haven't given up on him....but right now I think the distance is exactly what we needed. I remember two days after he left being outside to get my mail. My neighbor was outside getting hers and we started talking. She said, "Wow, did you just get back from vacation or something?" I told her no and asked her why she would say that. She said, "I swear it looks like you are well rested and....happy, even." She said every time she's seen me since we moved here she noticed I had bags under my eyes, always looked stressed beyond belief, and angry at times, even. 

These difficult kids are soooo incredibly draining, and my heart aches for you knowing you, too, are going through this. The other big thing I will say is this: Do NOT get stuck in a cycle where you feel guilty, that if you had just done this, or maybe done that. Do anything and everything you can for your son, but know your limitations, too. You can't MAKE them do anything, unfortunately. The best thing you can do is to allow your son to experience the consequences of his bad choices and behavior. Don't rush to the rescue always wanting to make it better. That robs him of the opportunity to grow, to learn, to mature. Take care of you, don't let this be all-consuming in your life. Know that sometimes doing the hard thing -- i.e. filing unruly charges -- is the right thing, and let it play out. 

I am sending you a giant cyber hug because Lord knows you deserve it.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

I took my son to specialists for 7 years before I finally took him to Boston Children's and got him proper diagnostic testing and many many rule-outs for his condition. He ended up with two different issues: one was a neural tube defect (which caused complete incontinence) and the other was a thyroid condition (thyroid failure) both relatively rare. I took him to Dartmouth Hitch**** and also Barbara Bush Children's Medical Centers and also a Pediatric neuropsych center with a 2-day eval, and also a regional specialized center based at the state University. None of them diagnosed him properly by following APA (American Pediatric Association) clinical guidelines for diagnosing his symptoms. You have to keep trying. If he has never been tested for blood lead, blood mercury or had an MRI or hormone testing then he has not been properly diagnosed. At a minimum he should have had testing at that age for blood lead. And even at low levels, i.e. 10 - 15, it could cause the symptoms he's having. Different children react differently to lead and mercury, exposure can be behavioral or geographical (different bedrooms, different friends' houses, etc.) If he started this at age 5 and didn't have issues before then don't just assume it's a psychological or discipline/attitude issue. AND DON'T LET ANY HIGH-FALLUTIN' DOCTORS OR SPECIALISTS ASSUME THAT EITHER. STICK EM TO IT AND ASK FOR APPROPRIATE TESTING ACCORDING TO CLINICAL CHARTS FOR HIS PRESENTING SYMPTOMS.


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## turnera

I took my daughter to many specialists for almost 10 years for back pain they all insisted wasn't there. Finally was referred to a rheumatologist when she was 21, who told her she had fibromyalgia! At her age! You just never know. Find other things you haven't ruled out yet.


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## Keenwa

You might want to read some of Gordon Neufeld's stuff about boys, kids, etc. Sounds like your son is totally peer oriented. There is a great book called "Hold on to your Kids" talks about this. Neufeld Institute


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## JustHer

I can totally understand what you are going through. Like lifewithcrazy, I have been through all that too. The only way to describe what it is like is to say "I now know what hell is like".

Your son could have borderline personality disorder, or maybe one of the physical conditions homemaker suggested. I guess you would have to get into the physical testing to find out.

I do also believe your son is on drugs, especially since he is hanging around the older kids. His next stop will be crime. The problem with this is that the juvenile system is set up so it does not discourage them from changing their ways - it is way too easy on them.

I wish I had some words of wisdom for you. It got to the point where, well, it was just awful. At 17 I was finally able to pull some money together to send him to a lock down rehab facility for boys 12-18. It helped a lot and it got him into a place where he was safe and we had peace in our home again. When he finally came home he did back slide, but he was an adult so we didn't have to live with it. He is doing much better now.

As for those younger years. It was just sooooo hard. I really feel for you. It would be so much easier if we could lock them down, but when you are living in society, you can't. And society doesn't care about you and your kid. As a parent, it is the hardest thing I have ever gone through. There is no where to turn, no one that can or will help. You are all on your own.

My prayers are with you.


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## over20

I feel for you. You mentioned you had a GF. Did your son's mother pass away? If not, the mother NEEDS to step in if she can. It sounds like he has a lot of rebel and anger inside of him. Did anything happen to him in the past? Any abuse, neglect etc.?

My DH and I have 4 kids, 20,18,15,11. I think you should sit him down and tell him you and him are starting over. You are NOT his friend. Get tougher!! He is only twelve YOU can prevent him from leaving the house and hanging out with older kids (No 16 or 18 kid wants a tag along around unless that tag a long is doing their dirty work). Set up the new house rules on the fridge where all the members of the home can see it. 

What you have done in the past is not working. It's time for very tough love. If he slams the bedroom door remove it. If he escapes through the window, lock them. Take away all privileges he has had. No cell phone, video games,Tv...EVERYTHING. He will see a new fierce parent. Try controlling his diet too, no soda, monster drinks (which aren't good for him anyway). Tell him if he wants to run around and disobey all the rules, which could eventually land him in prison, he can have a taste of Jail now! Tell him He has the power to earn back his privileges as he changes his behavior.

He needs to be in IC period. It is because you LOVE him, you are doing this.

This might sound extreme, but maybe you need to break up with your GF to fully concentrate on your son.

Your in my prayers...Blessings


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## downfall69

thank you for your response 

i have tried the rules i have tried the tough love he just doesn't care.
i found him with a red bull in his pocket a few weeks back and he know's he is forbidden from drinking that crap.i took it from him told him i never wanted to ever find one on him or in the house again and he was punished for the day in his room BUT what did he do a week later he went out and stole a CASE of monster drink.

his mother is not in his life but his attitude has been like this since he has been 5 years old getting worse each year and at that time me and his mother were together and at this point she has a new family and doesn't want him around her new kids because he is even worse when he is at her place because he knows he only goes there for a short time.

he told me this week he is trying his best to get suspended from school the principal called me and i explained to him a bit of what was going on and he told me he will most likely be calling youth protective services because as he said it seems no one can control him and i have to agree with him.

and he has been stealing a lot lately he told me to [email protected]$k myself last night because i told him i don't want him hanging around with the kids he is hanging around with i'm at a loss for words i don't know what to do i have tried everything.


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## frusdil

downfall69 said:


> thank you for your response
> his mother is not in his life but his attitude has been like this since he has been 5 years old getting worse each year and at that time me and his mother were together *and at this point she has a new family and doesn't want him around her new kids *because he is even worse when he is at her place because he knows he only goes there for a short time.


His mother is a selfish b who needs to pull her head out and step up. He is her son ffs! *She doesn't get a choice in this! *She created him, with you and it's not fair for you or the boy to leave it all to you! I can't believe this!

You don't just leave, make a new family and forget about your old one. Wow.


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## turnera

downfall69 said:


> thank you for your response
> 
> i have tried the rules i have tried the tough love he just doesn't care.


So? It's not your problem if he cares or not.

Or else you're not understanding what tough love really means. It means you SET A RULE, and it is then HIS CHOICE whether to abide by it or not. Because one of two things will happen - he will abide by the rule and all will be well, and maybe some positive reinforcement. He will break the rule, and you will then provide his HIS CONSEQUENCE for breaking the rule.

No skin off your nose if he gets the positive reinforcement or the consequence. Do you see the difference? You take the emotion out of it and he loses control.


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## turnera

downfall69 said:


> and he has been stealing a lot lately he told me to [email protected]$k myself last night because i told him i don't want him hanging around with the kids he is hanging around with i'm at a loss for words i don't know what to do i have tried everything.


And where are you when this is going on?

Do you know why my DD23 never cut class? Because I told her in 7th grade that if I ever caught her skipping, I would quit my job, and my NEW job would be to take her to school every day, and to SIT IN HER CLASSES to make sure she stays there. And to throw in a little shame.

Who does he steal from? Where is he when he steals? Where are YOU?

And a parent doesn't tell a child that he 'doesn't want him' hanging around with certain kids. He mans up and says 'If I catch you with those kids again, you're going to be stuck in the house for the next 4 weeks. AND you will be doing the laundry for all of us.'


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## turnera

Oh, and I have told my DD23 her whole life if she EVER gets caught breaking the law, she'd better be prepared to settle in at jail, because I WILL NOT be bailing her out. And if she requires a lawyer, she will be paying back the lawyer's fee, if it takes her the next 20 years.

THAT is how you keep a child from stealing.


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## scatty

I have strong opinions about troubled kids, because I was one myself. Tough love might work if it is a personality problem, but not if it is a biological disorder. I was horrific as a kid, due to an undiagnosed mental illness. My parents, with the best intentions, went to "Tough Love" meetings (there's a reason you don't hear about these meetings anymore.) They suggested I be locked outside, with nowhere to go in the New England winter. Thank god I found a barn with a heater to sleep in, and relied on soup kitchens to feed me if I walked 15 miles each way (which I did because what else was I to do?) 

I ended up being diagnosed and treated for severe bipolar disorder and anxiety soon after. It's a wonder I even talk to my parents, but they didn't know any better and neither did I. I just thought I was a bad seed. 

Call crisis intervention for your area or an esteemed psych hospital and request services. Tell your son you know how hard it must be for him, do not belittle or shame him. IT HURTS TO BE THIS WAY if you cannot help it. Whether he can help it or not may take YEARS to find out, as kids and teens are sometimes in denial or less articulate than adults. I wish you and your family the best!


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## downfall69

frusdil said:


> His mother is a selfish b who needs to pull her head out and step up. He is her son ffs! *She doesn't get a choice in this! *She created him, with you and it's not fair for you or the boy to leave it all to you! I can't believe this!
> 
> You don't just leave, make a new family and forget about your old one. Wow.


it seems as she does have a choice because she bailed on me and the kids because things got tough


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## downfall69

turnera said:


> So? It's not your problem if he cares or not.
> 
> Or else you're not understanding what tough love really means. It means you SET A RULE, and it is then HIS CHOICE whether to abide by it or not. Because one of two things will happen - he will abide by the rule and all will be well, and maybe some positive reinforcement. He will break the rule, and you will then provide his HIS CONSEQUENCE for breaking the rule.
> 
> No skin off your nose if he gets the positive reinforcement or the consequence. Do you see the difference? You take the emotion out of it and he loses control.



what i mean by he doesn't care is that he is fine with the consequence iv'e tooken everything out of his room except his bed no tablet no xbox no tv nothing but it doesn't bother him iv'e put him in his room for a week stright with still no change iv'e told him i would quite my job that i would make his life hell if he didn't start listening. i try my best i watch him all the time but the few times i have let him out is when he will steal from the corner store or walmart or wherever.


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## turnera

scatty said:


> I have strong opinions about troubled kids, because I was one myself. Tough love might work if it is a personality problem, but not if it is a biological disorder. I was horrific as a kid, due to an undiagnosed mental illness. My parents, with the best intentions, went to "Tough Love" meetings (there's a reason you don't hear about these meetings anymore.) They suggested I be locked outside, with nowhere to go in the New England winter. Thank god I found a barn with a heater to sleep in, and relied on soup kitchens to feed me if I walked 15 miles each way (which I did because what else was I to do?)
> 
> I ended up being diagnosed and treated for severe bipolar disorder and anxiety soon after. It's a wonder I even talk to my parents, but they didn't know any better and neither did I. I just thought I was a bad seed.
> 
> Call crisis intervention for your area or an esteemed psych hospital and request services. Tell your son you know how hard it must be for him, do not belittle or shame him. IT HURTS TO BE THIS WAY if you cannot help it. Whether he can help it or not may take YEARS to find out, as kids and teens are sometimes in denial or less articulate than adults. I wish you and your family the best!


Of course, this goes without saying - if he's being erratic and showing signs of being unable to control himself, he needs to be assessed and diagnosed. If he's just being a jerk because he knows he can, it's coming from you and your lack of consistent actions. You say you've 'tried' tough love. Tough love doesn't work that way - it is just who you are.


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## turnera

downfall69 said:


> What I mean by he doesn't care is that he is fine with the consequence, I've taken everything out of his room except his bed - no tablet, no xbox, no tv, nothing, but it doesn't bother him. I've put him in his room for a week straight with still no change.


Great - then he's not out stealing. His choice. And have you done it consistently? Every single time he messes up? THAT is what they learn from. Not waiting til you get so fed up that you blow up and send him to his room. 

And btw, why does he have all that stuff in his room in the first place? What's wrong with saying you can use it in the living room?



downfall69 said:


> I've told him i would quite my job that I would make his life hell if he didn't start listening. I try my best i watch him all the time but the few times i have let him out is when he will steal from the corner store or walmart or wherever.


And what happens when he steals? Does he come home and you see what he stole? Or does he get arrested? If it's the former, did you put him in the car, drive him back to the store, tell the manager what he did, and demand he apologize and offer to pay it back? Somehow, I doubt it. If it's the latter, did you bail him out or did you let him sit in jail, go to court, and take the punishment they dish out?

And if you know he's going to steal, why are you NOT following him? You threatened to quit your job, yet you then send him out to steal with no following up on your words.

Don't you see? YOU are causing this because you aren't being a strong father who's not afraid to follow through. Kids, especially boys, need a STRONG father who shows them good values and punishes the hell out of them when they don't show them, too. He NEEDS you to be strong, or he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison. Or dead.


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## JustHer

downfall69 said:


> thank you for your response
> 
> *i have tried the rules i have tried the tough love he just doesn't care.*
> i found him with a red bull in his pocket a few weeks back and he know's he is forbidden from drinking that crap*.i took it from him told him i never wanted to ever find one on him or in the house again and he was punished for the day in his room BUT what did he do a week later he went out and stole a CASE of monster drink.*
> 
> *What happened when he stole the case of monster drink? What was his punishment?*
> 
> his mother is not in his life but his attitude has been like this since he has been 5 years old getting worse each year and at that time me and his mother were together and at this point she has a new family and doesn't want him around her new kids because he is even worse when he is at her place because he knows he only goes there for a short time.
> 
> *he told me this week he is trying his best to get suspended from school* the principal called me and i explained to him a bit of what was going on and he told me he will most likely be calling youth protective services because as he said it seems no one can control him and i have to agree with him.
> 
> *Why is he trying to get suspended?*
> 
> and he has been stealing a lot lately *he told me to [email protected]$k myself* last night because i told him i don't want him hanging around with the kids he is hanging around with i'm at a loss for words i don't know what to do i have tried everything.


*What did you do to that? What was his punishment?*



downfall69 said:


> what i mean by he doesn't care is that he is fine with the consequence *iv'e tooken everything out of his room except his bed no tablet no xbox no tv nothing but it doesn't bother him iv'e put him in his room for a week stright with still no change* iv'e told him i would quite my job that i would make his life hell if he didn't start listening. i try my best i watch him all the time but the few times i have let him out is when he will steal from the corner store or walmart or wherever.


*Did you just give him his stuff back or did you make him earn it back? Why did he get it all back within a week?*

*I know it is really tough to be in your shoes, I know because I have been there. But I do see inconsistencies with your parenting. I am not saying it will fix everything, lord knows I tried everything too, but if you will allow me to point some things out and make suggestions, it might help.

First off, your kid is on drugs. Listen to me carefully, you cannot help him if you don't take him out of his social environment. All you will be doing is talking to the drugs. You cannot reach him until you get him clean.

How do you do this? You can either send him to a rehab center, which cost an exorbitant amount of money - and there are no guarantees, or, you have to drastically change your lifestyle, parenting, etc.

What I mean by this is you still have to remove him from his current life. You need to somehow have one parent be with him full time. homeschool him, no social contact with anyone other than immediate family, sleeps on the floor of your room if necessary. Get the picture? Even with this it will take some 9 months to detox him and get him to start moving forward. It might be a little shorter in a facility because he is in a habit of manipulating you. He may refuse to do school work, fine, let him stare at a wall all day every day until he is ready to do school work with you.

Second, take all his stuff away and let him "earn" it back. He can sleep on the floor until he earns his bed back. Who knows, it may take 9 months just to earn his bed back. He absolutely does not get his Xbox, computer or games until he moves out of your home. These are highly addictive, especially for boys. No TV. He gets to watch an "appropriate" movie on the weekend IF he earned it.

You need to define the rules in writing. Everything needs to be spelled out along with the corresponding consequences and rewards. These are just not all the things HE has to do, but the whole family should be living the same standards. You need to put a lot of thought into this and you HAVE to stick to it. Every time he goes against a rule the consequences have to be enforced and it has to be consistent. Think of it as if when he does something he shouldn't it is like touching a hot stove, if he doesn't get burned (taught) he is not going to learn not to touch the stove again.

With this, you have to have some kind of reward system too. Like watching a movie on the weekend, or getting a special meal. You can start each week by giving him so many points and he looses so many points for each infraction. He can be in the hole at the end of the week and when his new points at the beginning of the next week are given to him he is still in the hole, or he can turn it around and start adding the points. when he gets to so many points he gets this or that. Say if you are giving him 4 points a week, when he gets to 25 points he gets to go swimming for a few hours, or when he gets to 50 points you will take him out to dinner. This may take a while, especially if he goes 50 points in the hole before he decides to get with it. That is OK.

The down side to all this is that most parents can't be with their children 100% of the time for a year or more and that is what you need to do.

One last thought. Everyone processes things differently. When my son was in therapy it came out that when he got in trouble he processed it as if we didn't love him. As a child he just couldn't make the connection between his behavior and the consequences. 

It is really easy to get so focused on the negative with these kids, but we do have to reinforce our love to them and let them know when they do do something that is good.*


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## turnera

Excellent post. Please listen to JustHer. She knows what she's talking about. And what she describes is exactly what the professionals would have you do. Please trust us. It's not your job to make your kid happy. It's your job to keep them safe until they're an adult. And hopefully teach them right from wrong.


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## over20

Do you have any outside family that can help? Why is he unsupervised to be able to go out and steal and see those kids? He should not be alone AT ALL. 

He has unresolved anger against his mother. Does he have to go visit? She is most of the problem here. Take her back to court ask for full custody, so you can work less and be there CONSTANTLY for your child. 

Try to hang in there, you need IC also. Do you belong to a church?

Maybe there is outpatient juvenile services of some kind in your county. Contact your DHS office they will be able to help.

Praying hard


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## downfall69

thank you they are great idea's 

he doesn't have his xbox or tablet back he has nothing i never given it back 

unfortunately i have to work i can not just quit or we will be in the streets. he is watched all of the time now but he was allowed to go outside for an hour or so a day up until this week where now he is not allowed to step outside without me or my gf with him.

as of last week he has nothing i did buy him Christmas presents and i am wondering if i should give them to him ?

you are right about not being consistant with thing's i was hoping he would just snap out of it but it is clear he wont.i do have outside help his grandparents help out but he is a lot to handle and we speak often about what the next step will be.


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## Emerald

You have my sympathies.

Out of control tweens & teens is so common these days. You need to involve the law. When he leaves the home w/o your permission, call the police & report him as a runaway. If you know where he is, the police will pick him up & bring him home. In my city, it is against the law for a minor to be out of the home w/o permission. If he steals from a department store, let the law handle it. If he skips school, report it to the school's truant officer.


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## over20

downfall69 said:


> thank you they are great idea's
> 
> he doesn't have his xbox or tablet back he has nothing i never given it back
> 
> unfortunately i have to work i can not just quit or we will be in the streets. he is watched all of the time now but he was allowed to go outside for an hour or so a day up until this week where now he is not allowed to step outside without me or my gf with him.
> 
> as of last week he has nothing i did buy him Christmas presents and i am wondering if i should give them to him ?
> 
> you are right about not being consistant with thing's i was hoping he would just snap out of it but it is clear he wont.i do have outside help his grandparents help out but he is a lot to handle and we speak often about what the next step will be.


I am not trying to be be disrespectful by any means but cool it with your GF for a while. This is YOUR son. Put all your energy into him and not her. Your son has already been rejected by his own mom... If you truly want the best for him break up! You are a father FIRST and a Boyfriend second. For Pete's sake grow up your son, that you brought into the world. Pursue a GF after your son in stable. 

I know this sounds very strong but you should be focusing on your son's well being 100% and NOT dating ( your needs vs son's needs)

I think you might be more beta than alpha?


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## downfall69

update

i've been home full time the last 2 weeks and had a few serious talks with my son he told me he just doesn't care that i get upset or get mad at him. he has fought with his bother everyday for the last 2 weeks. i took him back to one of the stores he stole from.

the manager told him she would call the police if ever she saw him in the store again. as we were leaving i asked him if he learnt lesson from the experience and his answer was he was mad at me because now he has to find another store to steal from.

so now because of all that he is locked in the house can no longer go out not even for a walk cant talk on the phone with friends nothing and i told him if i find one more thing stolen i myself will call the police on him.


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## turnera

downfall69 said:


> i told him if i find one more thing stolen i myself will call the police on him.


FINALLY some strength on your part; I'm really glad you're taking our advice to heart. I just hope you have the cajones to follow through when he steals next. And he will.

I have to ask, though, what exactly did you think taking him back there was going to do as a consequence? Shame him? Clearly he's beyond that. What I suggested you do is take him back to the store, make him apologize, and then make him PAY BACK what he stole in some form. He had no consequence.

You need to start getting creative in finding ways to GIVE him those consequences. For when he sneaks out of the house (he will). For when he steals (he will). For when you catch him with drugs (you will).

He is so far gone at this point that most likely the ONLY thing that's going to work on him is boot camp. Sorry, but it's the truth. He isn't likely to ever start respecting you again, so he needs to be getting that structure from SOMEwhere, and a boot camp is probably the only thing that's going to do it. You should probably start researching facilities, interview some, and have one ready to give them a phone call when he starts escalating to stealing cars and wallets.

Anyway, good job on taking him back there to own up.


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## turnera

downfall69 said:


> he has fought with his bother everyday for the last 2 weeks.


btw, what happens when he fights? What consequence are you giving him? Do you need help with ideas?


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## downfall69

i did make him apologize to the store manager i almost had to drag him into the store because he was so afraid they would call the cops on him. i am now looking into boot camp and will most likely taking that route.

when he fights i ask him to stop i try to explain how wrong it is to beat on his younger bother. since punishing him does no good and he wont listen to anything if you have and idea's yes please share. thank you.


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## turnera

Ok, first, stop ASKING him to do anything. Be the adult, the alpha male, in that house. He needs that from you. As for ideas, I'd suggest getting creative. We have a congressman who used to be a judge. He got famous for giving apt punishments that fit each crime. Like if someone got caught doing graffiti, the kid's punishment would be painting some old lady's house. 

Be prepared for him to refuse to do such things; fine; each time he refuses, his punishment doubles. Do this WITHOUT emotion. No skin off YOUR nose if he says no, he just adds to his 'time.' Think that dude in Breakfast Club, each time he mouthed off, he got more detention.

I guess each time he abuses his younger brother, I'd be tempted to give a punishment of doing something FOR his younger brother, like washing his clothes, or making him a sandwich, or building him a toybox.


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## over20

Very Proud of you .......he takes his anger out on his younger brother because he is filled with RAGE. The younger brother is an easy prey. You have now another issue, abuse between siblings.

I have to ask, are there drugs involved on either side? It just seems really off that for some reason your son, coming from a broken home is struggling so much. It's as if there are more issues at hand.........something does not feel right.

There are thousands of kids living in broken homes that don't result in such defiance and violence?

Did you break up with your GF yet?


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## turnera

Also, has he been assessed for personality disorders yet?


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## indiecat

Good for you taking him to the doctors and therapists. 

He may have to end up in a group home for a few months. As a dad you can only do so much. If he will not respect any house rules you will have no choice. You, your gf, and other son can only take so much.

Maybe a group home setting can get him more assessment for mental health issues.


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## downfall69

over20 said:


> Very Proud of you .......he takes his anger out on his younger brother because he is filled with RAGE. The younger brother is an easy prey. You have now another issue, abuse between siblings.
> 
> I have to ask, are there drugs involved on either side? It just seems really off that for some reason your son, coming from a broken home is struggling so much. It's as if there are more issues at hand.........something does not feel right.
> 
> There are thousands of kids living in broken homes that don't result in such defiance and violence?
> 
> Did you break up with your GF yet?


you are right he is filled with rage and anger he get's a kick out of watching his bother cry. he is almost 13 and his bother 6

i have not found any drugs in the house and he has no money to be able to buy any. but i wouldn't put it past him to do drugs if someone gave them to him.

me and my gf have been living together going on 4 years now she is very good to the kids and is much more of a mother to both of them then their real mother has ever been.they need a mother figure in their life's. both kids live with us full time they see their mother 12 days a year.

not once in all the hours of trying to talk to him has he ever said he was sorry for anything or that he would try to do better or try to get along with the family. i don't know if that mean's anything but it doesn't seem normal.

he has been assessed for personality disorders by many doctor's many time's and they have found nothing. iv'e tried pills without any success.

i'll give you guy's another example of how he is
he will try to tell me what he is allowed to do or that he makes the rules. he will try to tell me it is he who decides. it doesn't work but it start's a huge argument.
because he think's the way he does he think's he can get away with anything. and this goes on everyday all day long.

now he has lost all privileges and he sit's in the house all day but it doesn't seem to bother him that much.

i cant even take him to the mall cause i will have a 13 year old
5 foot 10, 160 pound boy chasing his 6 year old little bother around the mall acting like he was 5 or 6 himself.

next week when school starts back up i will be speaking to them to see what they suggest


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## turnera

It looks like the biggest problem, barring any mental issues on his part, is that you are not being alpha enough. Have you ever given him swats? Ever given him reason to fear your punishment? You really need to get a handle on this he's the boss dynamic asap. If it takes YOU going to a therapist to get tools to work with, by all means do it.

If I ever told my dad that I was the boss, first he would have laughed at me. Then I would have been bent over his knee, to SHOW me who is the boss. That happened ONCE to me, when I was about 8, and I never questioned him or my mom again.


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## jld

Haven't read all the other replies, and maybe it is too late for your son . . . 

But have you tried active listening? Basically just listening to your child nonjudgmentally, not interrupting, just listening and then repeating back to him what he says? Sometimes just feeling listened to and understood can make a big difference.

Dh and I use active listening with our kids (dd18, ds14, ds11, ds8, and ds5) all the time to diffuse conflicts. It has just been a miracle worker in our lives, not only with the kids, but with each other, and for dh at work. I can't recommend it enough.

Your ds12 is a person with feelings. I'm not saying the tougher approaches don't have their merits, too, but this is one more idea to consider.

I hope it is not too late, that his heart is not too hardened.

My best,
jld


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## downfall69

i have been very alpha. 

he would always refuse to go to his room when punished so i would take him by his shirt and walk him to his room he does this thing where when i walk him to his room once we would get past the bedroom door he would go limp or let himself fall to the ground then accuse me of pushing him down to the ground well it just happened the last time as he went limp i tried to hold him up but i fell on top of him he hit his arm on a table in his room he got up said he was going to call the police on me and tell them i was abusing him.
i told him to call but he never did.

iv'e tried my best to make him fear me as when i was younger my father just had to look at me a certain way when i did something wrong and i would stop, BUT nothing works.

the only thing that seem's to work is when i yell at him at the top of my voice and there is smoke coming from my ear's before he stop's but then again it is only temporally because it's a cycle that happen's everyday. 

"If I ever told my dad that I was the boss, first he would have laughed at me. Then I would have been bent over his knee, to SHOW me who is the boss."

i must of tried that at least 5-6 times when he was younger. he has never told me he is the boss. what he does say is "i have the right to do this or that".


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## downfall69

jld said:


> Haven't read all the other replies, and maybe it is too late for your son . . .
> 
> But have you tried active listening? Basically just listening to your child nonjudgmentally, not interrupting, just listening and then repeating back to him what he says? Sometimes just feeling listened to and understood can make a big difference.
> 
> Dh and I use active listening with our kids (dd18, ds14, ds11, ds8, and ds5) all the time to diffuse conflicts. It has just been a miracle worker in our lives, not only with the kids, but with each other, and for dh at work. I can't recommend it enough.
> 
> Your ds12 is a person with feelings. I'm not saying the tougher approaches don't have their merits, too, but this is one more idea to consider.
> 
> I hope it is not too late, that his heart is not too hardened.
> 
> My best,
> jld



yes i have tried and still do sit down with him or go for a drive i let him talk first i listen to what's bothering him. then we talk about how we can fix the problem or try to find a solution.

(even if this might make me sound like a bad father to say) he is the root of most of the problem's in the house and it might be hard to believe but he enjoy's making our life's hell i think he get some sort of sick pleasure from it. and once again this has been going on since he was 5 years old getting worse and worse with each passing year. and so far there has been nothing the school, counselor's,doctor's or myself have been able to stop


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## indiecat

Good attention or bad attention, he seems to thrive on either. Next time he steals let the police deal with him. Tell them to take him to a group home. He needs a big wake up call. Being in a family is also a privilege.


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## turnera

Yeah, I think you may be at that point. IMO, what he really needs is 24/7 therapy, in a facility.


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## lifewithcrazy

Downfall:

I have been gone for a bit dealing with life, the holidays, and being sick, and wanted to check in on you. I'm sorry to see/hear that things aren't getting any better for you and your son. 

I know you don't want to hear it and certainly don't want to do it, but I agree with the ladies above: It may be time to let go for a bit. The next time he acts up, let the police deal with him, let him face the consequences in court, and he may very well end up in an inpatient program depending on the crime. Here, things are very stair-stepped. Like with my son, he did off-the-record probation first, then when he got arrested again, he did "for real" probation. I begged and pleaded for them to lock him up, but a group home/inpatient treatment was still six crimes away. It's just not the first thing they try, unless the crime warrants it. 

Either way, I think it's time he learns his lesson. I told you in PMs that what he's doing is called leveling, and these kids are masters at it. God knows my son must have come out of the womb thinking he was in charge, and nothing was going to convince him otherwise. Like Indiecat said, these kids thrive on attention, positive, negative, they don't care. 

Going this route doesn't mean in any way that you don't love him. In fact, I think you need to let him go this route BECAUSE you love him. You and I both know that the road he is on now is a slippery slope and he will have a hard life ahead of him. If there is any chance whatsoever that letting him face the consequences with the legal system will bring about change, I think you need to roll the dice and try it. Nothing else is working. 

I am three months out from my son leaving, and I miss him sometimes. I do. But I do not for one minute miss the hell that was my life when he lived here. I joke all the time that I swear I have PTSD from living with him, trying to manage him, and dealing with him for 18 long, hard years. Like your situation, it resembled a war zone. That's no way for us, or the kids, to live. Something has to give. 

As I said before, you are welcome to PM me any time. If it's easier, I can send you my e-mail since I check it all the time. You ARE going to get through this. I can't promise that you won't have battle wounds and mental anguish at the end of it, but you will get through it. It's going to hurt like hell sometimes and you will beat yourself up with guilt sometimes. Your son will definitely hate you for a while.....but you're running out of options and he doesn't want to cooperate with anything you try. This is one of those cases where he might have to experience "leveling" in reverse. If he wants to act out and commit crimes like the big kids, he will have to be punished like them, too. Maybe he will listen to a PO who has the power to make his life hell. Maybe that's all it will take. 

I always say with regards to my husband, I really don't think he can get better or make needed changes within the confines of this marriage because I'm always here with a second, third, eightieth chance. The same thing holds true for your son. He may not be able to get better within the confines of your home right now because he knows you will always be there to catch him when he falls, to give him "one more chance." 

I think we talked about this privately, but why don't you make an appointment with a therapist for yourself and talk through some of this stuff, get an objective opinion on how else to proceed, what else to try. Don't fight this war alone. Thinking of you!!


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## SunnyT

downfall.... hugs to you. 

I have sooooooooooooooooo been there, done that. 

My son was just like yours. NOTHING worked. I DID let the police handle it at one point...at about age 12. That put the fear in him a little bit. He had to pick up trash at the county jail.... he said those guys are HUGE, I don't ever want to go there. 

He was impossible to go to middle school. He ditched, I was way proactive with the truant officer. He flunked, I was proactive with his teachers.... but it didn't matter what i did. (I'm a school teacher.... this was embarassing, broke my heart, and just crushed me that he wouldn't try to see the importance of school)

Finally, at the age of 16 he made a bad choice and we told him he couldn't come home....that was so freaking hard and heartbreaking. He eventually came back, cuz you can't actually/legally keep them out when they are under age. And really, one huge part of you STILL wants to help them to get it right. 

So he was a freakin lump on the couch for a year, no matter what we said. (Stepdad and I) I think what finally worked was sibling pressure. He didn't want his siblings to really really think he was a loser (and they were thinking that). He acted all along like he don't care what anyone thinks. But he did (lol, I THINK). 

He had dropped out of school. I actually at one point withdrew him voluntarily, because they fine the parents here if your child quits going before the age of 18. BS.... I TRIED getting him there. So he finally joined JobCorps... which he b*tched about the whole time....he said it was a cross between college and jail, but which introduced him to a variety of kids. Some junkies, some losers, some just poor and needing this step up. A bit of an eye opener. 

After that, at age 17 he got his GED and I signed for him to join the army. He's been to Afghanistan.... he hated the army. He did what he had to do, and stayed in the 4 years.... but I knew he wouldn't like all those people ALWAYS telling him what to do. (BUT... I think it was easier than him figuring out what the heck to do with his life). 

He's out now. Looking of work.... not looking hard enough in my opinion....but I'm not supporting him. His hard knocks are ALL HIS. He has signed up for school at the community college... which is great, but it's still not making a decision on WHAT to do, and HOW to live his life. Just another way to put it off. 

He's 22 now..... its been a freakin LONG 10 years. And yes, I still worry about him every day. He's pleasent though, and has apoligized for the bs he put me and stepdad through. 

He's not a bad guy, loves family. Does the right thing.... but from the outside, it looks like he doesn't TRY hard enough. 

This is such a looooooooooooooooong story.... there is so much more. (Punishments, rewards, therapies, anger, resentment, sadness, confusions, frustrations.......) My son was JUST like yours. I dragged him to therapy.... he refused to participate.... I participated in spite of him. Some of the therapists were so lame, but I never let on. I TRIED. (It really crushed my confidence in therapy.... one suggested happy face stickers, one said let's pray for him, one said feed him healthier foods .....wtf?) I took away everything... he didn't care. His dad cancelled his bday one year...I didn't agree, but I backed the (then) H. His siblings snuck him gifts and greetings... which I thought was cool and i think it helped. 

So I'm sure he has issues. And at this point, I still support him mentally.... and I refuse to support him financially, and he knows his mom loves him and will help if she can. I go over his college schedule and give him advice. I text him all the time. He moved back to this town to be close to family..... 

Freakin' kids..... 

The one thing I want to say.... even when I hated it all, and when I resented this kid and how hard he made things, and when the cops got involved, and the truant officers..... even when I hated all of it.... I just wanted him to KNOW that I was still fighting FOR him. Even if at the time I knew he couldn't see or understand that, SOME DAY... he would know what I was doing. 

I really, really think he gets it now.

***Just FYI....It really made me cry to put all this in writing. Do EVERYTHING you can think of, everything someone else suggests, and KNOW that you are doing what you can and should for your kid.
Know that SOMEWHERE inside, he gets it. 

I regret some things I've done, and some things that maybe I should have done..... but it was all for the right reason. I was freaking TRYING! 

Mine is the youngest of 5. He didn't lack for anything at one time..... no rhyme or reason as far as I can tell.

Just wanted you to know that you are not alone.

FYI to others..... boot camp would have been awesome, but who could afford that? Meds (adhd) were administered but he hid them, spit them out, whatever. A "facility" was my dream...and I spent hours on the phone to no avail. If you don't have money, forget it. I called the courts, I called therapists, I called the county and the state..... I figured I needed to get all the info I could, and see what I could possibly do "in the best interest" of the kid. It sounds defeatist,, but for the average parents with average insurance, if the kid doesn't break the law in a big way... (and believe me the little ways ....graffiti and theft weren't enough) then the courts or legal system won't or can't help. Which is fine, they aren't supposed to help me raise my kid. But outsiders think.... get help. Sometimes there really isn't any help, so as a parent my advice is keep on keeping on... work on what you know is right. Get counseling for yourself is needed.


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## turnera

My biggest belief is that they ARE watching and listening and learning - they just can't let YOU know that. And later, usually between 25 and 35, they will just...change. Grow up. Whatever you want to call it. Eventually, they'll realize that all your tough love was right, and helpful. Eventually, they'll come back to the nest and be your family again. They just have to mature, to do it.


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## lifewithcrazy

turnera said:


> My biggest belief is that they ARE watching and listening and learning - they just can't let YOU know that. And later, usually between 25 and 35, they will just...change. Grow up. Whatever you want to call it. Eventually, they'll realize that all your tough love was right, and helpful. Eventually, they'll come back to the nest and be your family again. They just have to mature, to do it.


THIS!!! I think this is probably dead-on. Obviously I can't speak from experience yet, since my son and I are only three months in, but everyone I have spoken with -- from friends, neighbors, therapists, educators -- has said much the same thing; that the best we can hope for at this point was that he WAS watching and listening all those years and that even though he is fighting against every bit of it right now, the "aha" moment will come and he'll find his way back and realize that I had his back and did everything under the sun for him. 

Right now, some people see my backing off as giving up, and sometimes I feel that way myself. The reality is I love him and respect him enough to let him live his life at this point however he sees fit. He is 18, going to take on the world, could finally give the bird to mom and all her rules. Fair enough, I was 18 once, and in many ways like my son -- had to learn the hard way. I have faith that once he's out on his own for a bit, gets some life experience under his belt, and does a little growing up, things will come full circle. The other option would be to push back and I think that would only make things worse. 

Kids.....if they only knew the hell they put us through, realized how much we loved them even when it didn't look that way -- i.e. tough love -- things would be easier. This new generation of kids, though, seems to have a completely different mind set than ours did and they're tougher nuts to crack.


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## lifewithcrazy

SunnyT said:


> downfall.... hugs to you.
> 
> The one thing I want to say.... even when I hated it all, and when I resented this kid and how hard he made things, and when the cops got involved, and the truant officers..... even when I hated all of it....* I just wanted him to KNOW that I was still fighting FOR him.* Even if at the time I knew he couldn't see or understand that, SOME DAY... he would know what I was doing.
> 
> I really, really think he gets it now.
> 
> ***Just FYI....It really made me cry to put all this in writing. Do EVERYTHING you can think of, everything someone else suggests, and KNOW that you are doing what you can and should for your kid.
> Know that SOMEWHERE inside, he gets it.
> 
> I regret some things I've done, and some things that maybe I should have done..... but it was all for the right reason. I was freaking TRYING!


I totally agree with this entire post, and huge hugs to you because there are days when I write about the struggle with my own son that the tears just won't stop. 

The bolded part, though, is HUGE. I was right there with you -- I was so sick of his screw ups, so sick of the police, the drama, the BS, so sick of counselors and probation officers, so sick of every last bit of it; and I was so angry at him for being so damn difficult -- but every step of the way, even when he screwed up, I fought for him with everything I had in me. I never, ever, ever let him face the consequences without me in his corner. 

I remember the time he stole something with a group of friends and they hid it in my garage. A detective called me because "a friend of a friend said" and my heart dropped. I knew he had done it. I confronted him. He lied over and over and over again. I didn't give up. He finally admitted it. I put him in the car, drove him to the police station, made him confess, which sealed his punishment -- he was getting charged with the crime regardless. Even then, after being the one to make him take responsibility for what he did, I stood by his side through the entire process -- through court, through probation, through counseling, through house arrest. I always made it known that he was going to face the consequences for his actions, but that even when he screwed up, I loved him and I had his back.

I suppose that's part of why this hurts for me so much now, though. I gave that kid everything I had to give and then some, with never a single bit of appreciation, never a thank you, nothing other than a middle finger and out the door. I know our kids never really "owe" us anything, but I do know that if an "I'm sorry" or "thank you" never comes he will have to face whatever music he gets into from now on, on his own.


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## turnera

Those usually come later, once they have grown up.


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## turnera

lifewithcrazy said:


> Right now, some people see my backing off as giving up


First, it's NOT your job to be your kid's friend. They have friends for that. It's your job to do the tough stuff, to show love but provide guidance. And any parent or family member who tells you that you should be easier on him...IS WRONG.


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## Harken Banks

downfall69 said:


> he does not like heavy metal or do durgs.


OK, this was funny.


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## Harken Banks

Give him book: The Centaur


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## SurpriseMyself

downfall69 said:


> what i mean by he doesn't care is that he is fine with the consequence iv'e tooken everything out of his room except his bed no tablet no xbox no tv nothing but it doesn't bother him iv'e put him in his room for a week stright with still no change iv'e told him i would quite my job that i would make his life hell if he didn't start listening. i try my best i watch him all the time but the few times i have let him out is when he will steal from the corner store or walmart or wherever.


First, everything I'm about to offer assumes your son doesn't have a learning disability or mental health issue.

Most of the time when parents are the ones laying down the consequences, the child only learns to hate their parents for punishing them. They don't learn anything except they are a bad kid who needs to be punished a lot.

Think of it this way: you can work for a boss who believes in you, gives you the freedom to make "certain" choices, who wants to see you succeed more than punish you when you fail. Or you could have a boss who doesn't think much of you, ignores your hard work, has rules for everything, and who you know is going to come down hard on you if you mess up. When we go "tough love" on a daily basis, that's the environment we are raising our kids in.

I hope it's not too late for you to believe in your son. He will live up or down to the expectations you have for him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

It doesn't have to be tough love; just common, logical consequences, given without emotion, to common illogical behavior. It's the kid's choice whether to abide by the house's rules.


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## Malpheous

I noticed a couple things in the posts here. 

1.) When the question about being "alpha" was brought up. You mentioned making your son fear you. That's not really the idea. Teach him to respect you as the person in charge. That's the real goal. Not fear. 

2.) Don't argue with him. You mention he starts arguments. Don't engage in it. Give your expectations with a minimal explanation. Be sure it's clear and understood. Clarify if needed. That's it. End it there. If he offers a reasonable answer about why he can't do something then adjust your original expectation appropriately. But only if he explains himself respectfully and it's valid. But don't get on his level and bicker. Once you do that you lose footing as the alpha.


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## turnera

Exactly. I never showed emotion when telling DD what the house rules were, and what her consequences would be, nor did I when I was having to dole out those same consequences. She railed at me, I shrugged and said "You knew the rules and you chose to ignore them. This is on you. You want a different outcome, choose a different path."


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