# Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships



## pragmaster

Hey everyone,

I've come here to post a couple questions that are open for discussion. 

Before I dive into it, I would like to state that normally I would only post such a question on a forum specific to these practices, but I thought it might be a great idea to get a "public" or "mainstream" opinion on it. My real hope is for a pagan couple to share their experiences. 

A few years ago I took an apprenticeship from a shaman, with practices ranging from tibetan mastery to south american native beliefs and philosophies. The category to these beliefs and systems are technically "pagan/wiccan/occult". I do chakra healings, crystal healings, dream interpretation and teach various forms of meditations to those who seek to know. 

I've known since the beginning that these aren't widely accepted in society. If it isn't labelled meta-physics/pseudoscience or hocus pocus it's labelled as evil/satanic/witchcraft. I can assure you it is non-of those things. The majority of these practices are based from hinduism, buddism, native american beliefs, druidism and teachings from tibetan monks. It's all about love and expanding your awareness. There is plenty of information available online for those curious in learning about this stuff.

Anyways, my questions are the following:

-To my fellow sorcerers, what obstacles have you encountered in seeking and building new relationships with other sorcerers/sorceresses? ?

-To everyone else, Would you even bother dating someone with this sort of spirituality? Why?


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## Married but Happy

Interesting topic, pragmaster. I've known - and dated - a few Pagans and Wiccans, and done (a little) reading, study and participative exploration into the beliefs and practices of shamanism, Wicca, chakras, etc. I can't say that I'm aware of the connections with Buddhism (although I identify mostly as Buddhist/Taoist) or Hinduism (except the chakra concepts).

I think any of these practices can be helpful in spiritual development, just as many of the more mainstream practices can be. By "spiritual" I really mean psycho-social development, as I don't think there is any real supernatural or occult basis for any such belief or practice, including those in the mainstream. Even so, I really enjoyed my researches and experiences, and found some very useful and enlightening in a variety of ways. It's also enriching to explore and understand a little about a variety of worldviews.


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## bfree

Interesting topic indeed. I am Christian but I have several good friends that are pagan. I have attended quite a few sabbats and esbats. Additionally I have celebrated Samhain, Yule and the Feast of Hecate with my friends. I found the services to be energetic, pleasant and engaging. All the people I have met have been extremely accommodating, very nice and respectful. I in turn value their beliefs and am accepting of their spiritual convictions. My friends joke that I am probably a better pagan than many in their groups.

Having said that I must admit that I would hesitate to date someone that doesn't share my particular belief system. I just feel that it would create too many issues especially if the relationship would become permanent and children might enter the picture.


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## frootloop

I'm an atheist, but I think I would be okay with dating a pagan, et. al.
I'm not really that aware of enough of the specific beliefs to say.

I'm rather fond of Buddhism also.


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## Fozzy

I used to frequent wiccan chatrooms on AOL many years ago, mostly to find out how many people were naked. Most were.


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## Sandie

Crystal healing means you fix peoples health problems with rocks?!!

No thanks I'll go to a regular doctor!


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## SamuraiJack

Sandie said:


> Crystal healing means you fix peoples health problems with rocks?!!
> 
> No thanks I'll go to a regular doctor!


If you hit somebody over the head with a large enough crystal...I'm pretty sure that solves their problems... permanently.
:smthumbup:

For the record, I have studied many different types of religion as part of my psych training...everyone has their own comfort level with how far these deviate from traditional western models.
I tend to take it all in with a skeptical eye.


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## pragmaster

Hahaha. Oh how those who know not know not! 

Since the late 70's and thanks to prominent scientists/physicists such as Einstein, Carl Sagan and Michio Kaku, the Western world is finally catching up to our shamanic ancestors and labeling it "quantum physics". You guys really need to get informed lol. The collective consciousness, infinity, the dreaming body, the tree of life, etc... 

A good book to read about is "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, or watch any videos by Michio Kaku. 

Crystals are amplifiers. "Science" has proven this and they have also proven that certain crystals can store information and energy (i.e. quartz). Science has even proven the existence of 7 power centers in the human body although, the sages of millenias past refer to them as chakras. Crystal healings are basically chakra clearings and we place a charged crystal near each chakra to amplify the clearing effects. It's not possible to disprove this anymore . 

To each their own! 

All I can say is when you dabble with otherworldly spirits...you better be prepared!

Come on! Where are the others on this forum? Surely I am not alone lol.


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## Affaircare

pragmaster, 

I was a wiccan in my younger days. Okay I need to clarify--I really took time and studied many of the spiritual practices in the world. My time as a wiccan I would say was about 3-4 years (in that neighborhood) and I loved the aspects of a strong feminine identity and the aspect of learning from and working cooperatively with nature and the cycle rather than western "swimming against the tide." This became an off-shoot into a more natural, holistic, herbal view of healing the whole individual rather than "Here's a pill."

But I digress!

Right this moment, if I were single, I would not date someone who is pagan, not because I don't understand or because I think the spirituality is "weird" (if you know what I mean), but rather because after studying I've chose to follow the path of Christianity meaning a true believer and follower of Christ -- living like He lived and learning what He taught. Since that is my choice right now, I would feel incompatible with a person who was not also focusing on really trying to understand and study and emulate Christ. Does that make sense? 

In many ways I learned a LOT from my years as a wiccan, and I think I've sort of incorporated some of that wise woman type of thinking pattern into the woman I am now. Yet since that is not how I choose to live now, I would find it difficult to be at unity with someone who is not intimate spiritually.


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## bfree

I do agree pragmaster that we should pay more respect to our ancestors and their medicinal ways. It has recently been discovered that a recipe used more than a thousand years ago is effective over 90% of the time in treating MRSA, a staph bacteria heavily resistant to antibiotics. For some reason I find comfort in knowing that it is as rewarding to look back as it is enlightening to look forward.


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## bandit.45

I worshipped Lonnie Anderson when I was a teen. 

Does that count?


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## Fozzy

It counts twice.


IF YA KNOW WHAT I'M SAYIN'

Also, for some reason I read that as Louie Anderson the first time.


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## bfree

bandit.45 said:


> I worshipped Lonnie Anderson when I was a teen.
> 
> Does that count?


That's a cult that I think most young men are part of..myself included.


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## bfree

Fozzy said:


> It counts twice.
> 
> 
> IF YA KNOW WHAT I'M SAYIN'
> 
> Also, for some reason I read that as Louie Anderson the first time.


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## Sandie

bfree said:


> I do agree pragmaster that we should pay more respect to our ancestors and their medicinal ways. It has recently been discovered that a recipe used more than a thousand years ago is effective over 90% of the time in treating MRSA, a staph bacteria heavily resistant to antibiotics. For some reason I find comfort in knowing that it is as rewarding to look back as it is enlightening to look forward.


Our ancestors thought draining blood out of someones body will cure them from bad illnesses!

Now 100s of years later people think rocks will cure them!

We need to move forward NOT backwards!


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## SamuraiJack

pragmaster said:


> *Hahaha. Oh how those who know not know not! *
> Since the late 70's and thanks to prominent scientists/physicists such as Einstein, Carl Sagan and Michio Kaku, the Western world is finally catching up to our shamanic ancestors and labeling it "quantum physics". *You guys really need to get informed lol.* The collective consciousness, infinity, the dreaming body, the tree of life, etc...


It's the way THIS reads that turns a lot of people off to the possibility of investigating alternate frameworks of the world.

Possibly you didnt mean to, but you come across as being "superior and knowing something others do not". 

I run into this attitude with many wiccans, mostly as a justification to their different stance and a need to feel superior.
NOT because the science or practice is "different".

In the end its nothing more than another version of a framework human beings use to make sense of their world and keep the tenuous grasp on what they see as control.

But this attitude that accompanies wiccanism these days is quite frankly what is keeping it from blossoming into a beautiful thing.

More thorns than flowers from what is often presented.


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## Rowan

I've been a practicing neo-Pagan for about 10 years. There are very few people in my real life who are aware of it, and I regard my spiritual practices as something deeply personal and private. 

When dating I look for people who describe themselves as "spiritual but not religious" (or some version thereof) and I describe myself similarly. I don't really care what kind of spiritual they are, or actually, if they're agnostic or atheist. What would make me incompatible with a person is their being very devoutly anything. I steer clear of guys who mention their devotion to God or their worship habits in their online profiles or on first dates. I don't object to those things at all, but I wouldn't be compatible with someone who wanted/needed me to participate in their worship with them. I also "next" anyone who is openly intolerant of others' beliefs. I don't want to convert anyone, won't put up with anyone who wants to convert me, but also wouldn't be comfortable with anyone who felt the need to let me know they consider people with faith (of any type, or of a type not their own) to be misguided/wrong/sinners/idiots.


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## pragmaster

boulder
l.a/ humboldt
how to build a magnetic generator


I like what someone said about wiccans/pagans looking/feeling superior than others. I see this attitude lot, even in myself sometimes, but I understand it. It has to do with the destruction of ego and self-importance, putting self first, becoming nothing and knowing that everything we experience in this world is a direct reflection of ourselves and our knowledge (we call a tree a tree because we were taught that a tree is a tree when in reality, it's just a label). Sorcerers break habits, break egos, and don't usually care about other people. That's why they come off as such..(but it's a good thing). We must evolve individually before we can collectively! 

For myself, I can't date christians/catholics or atheists. The formers worship a lie (read the book of enoch or the lords of the left hand path for some hard truths) and atheists are quite simply, unaware of their energy bodies (and a lack of faith or witnessing in/of the divine self). If that upsets you, there is a reason! That reason is called attachment. 

Anyways, I am totally going to digress so I'll stop now. Thanks everyone.


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## happy as a clam

pragmaster said:


> For myself, I can't date christians/catholics or atheists. *The formers worship a lie...*


Jeepers. Why don't you tell us what you really think about us??


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## Sandie

pragmaster said:


> Sorcerers break habits, break egos, and don't usually care about other people. That's why they come off as such..(but it's a good thing).


It's good not to care about other people?

No thanks!

You stick with rocks I'll stick to guys who care.


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## pragmaster

Sandie...you totally don't understand but that's ok. I am literally rolling on the floor laughing! 

Of course it's "good" to care about others but there are definitely degrees of caring and in my context it was more a long the lines of vampirism. Most people let other leech energy off of them and they don't even realize it. That's all I wanted to point out.

When you see energy, you cannot disprove it. It is there and it is real. Children see aura's all the time and yet they are often dismissed. You can call it skitzo if you really want, but every single human is capable of perceiving energy directly. 

I care a lot about my friends. More then most people in fact, but if someone sais something negative, it doesn't phase me like most people. It's all cristism and I respect it, honor it and don't let my ego get in the way. Most people let their ego's get in the way.

I'm sure you have seen the typical male ego at some point in your life. 

All that matters is love. It is the language of the universe. Maybe let's just agree to that


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## Sandie

I'm so glad I made you laugh!

good luck finding someone who agress with your energy theories!


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## bfree

Well, I'm a Christian but pragmaster is certainly entitled to his views. And I'm not so sure he will have too much trouble finding like minded souls. The theory of energy transference is not new and at least partially accepted by many. Take this photo for instance. I don't know what it is but it has never been discredited or explained away. I trust that someday God will enlighten me when He calls me home.


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## Sandie

What's so weird about the photo?


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## bfree

Sandie said:


> What's so weird about the photo?


The ribbon of energy across the picture.

The picture is of Laurie Cabot's witch coven taken in 1979 by national geographic magazine.


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## Married but Happy

bfree said:


> The ribbon of energy across the picture.
> 
> The picture is of Laurie Cabot's witch coven taken in 1979 by national geographic magazine.


Interesting. I met Laurie Cabot a long time ago. I think I have one of her books that she autographed for me.


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## bfree

Married but Happy said:


> Interesting. I met Laurie Cabot a long time ago. I think I have one of her books that she autographed for me.


I met Laurie Cabot as well. Interesting is a very good word.


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## pragmaster

I guess lately I have been pretty down and feeling lonely. I have a few pagan friends but in a city of bible thumpers, we are the outcast.

Debated moving to a city with more hippies or spiritual folk. Is that so crazy?


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## Affaircare

Nope, and speaking as a herbal hippy type, I can testify because I live near enough to Eugene, OR to visit regularly and they have a market during better weather where it is "normal" to be a freer spirit wearing tie dye and patchouli. Having the chance to enjoy others who are of a like mind, and the drum circle of course, is relaxing and feels peaceful. 

If there is a city nearby that is more "hippies and spiritual folk" you may find some rest within yourself.


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## bfree

Affaircare said:


> Nope, and speaking as a herbal hippy type, I can testify because I live near enough to Eugene, OR to visit regularly and they have a market during better weather where it is "normal" to be a freer spirit wearing tie dye and patchouli. Having the chance to enjoy others who are of a like mind, and the drum circle of course, is relaxing and feels peaceful.
> 
> If there is a city nearby that is more "hippies and spiritual folk" you may find some rest within yourself.


I love the smell of patchouli.


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## Affaircare

ME TOO! And I like men who smell like sandalwood


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## Faithful Wife

I'm not a pagan but I am a magical witch. 

I live in the Pac NW and have had lots of pagan friends and been to lots of festivals and naked parties in the woods. It's just what we do here.

The stuff I study can be considered weirder than pagan stuff by some, less weird by others. For me, in the end it is all the same path no matter what path you took.

I have very few friends who fully share my beliefs, however there are groups of people all over the world who do, and I just got back from a cruise with about 1,000 of us, and that was awesome.

My husband has his own type of magic and belief system, not quite like mine but very powerful in his life. He is part Native American and has a very intimate relationship with the earth and nature.

Frankly, if I was single, I don't even know if I could date someone with MY belief system, because people are so different about this stuff. If they were sooooo into it that they couldn't relate to me on a human basis anymore, or if they were into it but really didn't get it or apply it in their life, that would be less of a match for me than someone who is agnostic but open and curious.


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## RandomDude

pragmaster said:


> -To everyone else, Would you even bother dating someone with this sort of spirituality? Why?


For me it's a +2 points
Atheists for me its +1 point

For Christians it's -2 points
Muslims its -2 points
Buddhism/Hinduism/other mainstream religions its -1 point

So yeah, I prefer dating someone with a touch of spirituality but I despise religion.


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## Sandie

bfree said:


> The ribbon of energy across the picture.
> 
> The picture is of Laurie Cabot's witch coven taken in 1979 by national geographic magazine.


It looks like a tree branch or maybe something happened during developing of the film!


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## bfree

Sandie said:


> It looks like a tree branch or maybe something happened during developing of the film!


The picture has been studied extensively and no explanation has been found. Laurie Cabot simply says the picture was taken during what they called a circle where energy is drawn in and projected. I'll post the link to her actual explanation below.

https://youtu.be/EAmiOfwTEoM


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## Sandie

Sorry I don't believe in energy fields showing up in pictures!

No explanation means just that. It doesn't mean something out of this world!


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## bfree

Sandie said:


> Sorry I don't believe in energy fields showing up in pictures!
> 
> No explanation means just that. It doesn't mean something out of this world!


A while ago I was talking to my pagan friends regarding an article I read about how science proved that auras actually existed and they could now be measured and photographed. Their response..."yeah we've known that for centuries." Sometimes it takes science a little while to catch up to widely held beliefs and known truths. I wouldn't call energy fields out of this world. I would just say we're still in the learning stages of that discipline.


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## changedbeliefs

bfree said:


> an article I read about how science proved that auras actually existed and they could now be measured and photographed.


Google "scientific proof of auras" - 

1) Japanese Scientists Prove That Auras Actually Exist

"A group of Japanese scientists from the University of Tokyo under the supervision of Mio Watanabe, conducted a series of experiments by which they managed to visually capture the aura of a person, thus proving its existence! With the assistance of highly sensitive cameras the scientists were able to photograph a person’s special glow. Notably, the glow appears brightest in the morning and seems to “fade” in the evening. It is most visible around the face, mouth, cheeks and neck. Experts believe that this technique could become a new tool for use in the diagnosis and treatment of many diseases. A faint glow around certain body parts may indicate the presence of a disease or disorder."

Funny, have yet to hear my doctor discussing this technique, especially since this article appears on such an esteemed medical blog....[/sarcasm]

2) The Aura: A Brief Review - CSI

"In summary, although there is ample evidence that human beings are surrounded by thermal, electromagnetic, and electrostatic fields (Presman 1970 as cited in Dobrin et al. 1977), there is a lack of evidence for the existence of the aura that psychics claim to see."

3) Scientific evidence explains why some healers see the 'aura' of people

"But as well as tricking the patients into healing themselves, scientists believe healers are also deceiving themselves. [They] have abilities and attitudes that make them believe in their ability to heal other people, but it is actually a case of self-deception, as synesthesia is not an extrasensory power, but a subjective and ‘adorned’ perception of reality”.

Synesthesia is when a person's senses get "mixed" so someone "sees" colors, e.g., when they hear a sound, or hear a sound when they sense a particular smell. However, nothing in this article discusses actually measuring someone's aura, it's all about explaining what the people who THINK they see auras are actually experiencing.

To dovetail into many other threads in this sub-forum, this is what the crticial thinker does, the skeptic (not the "cynic"), they take claims that seem far-fetched and demand evidence, which in this case, doesn't exist.


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## changedbeliefs

bfree said:


> Well, I'm a Christian but pragmaster is certainly entitled to his views. And I'm not so sure he will have too much trouble finding like minded souls. The theory of energy transference is not new and at least partially accepted by many. Take this photo for instance. I don't know what it is but it has never been discredited or explained away. I trust that someday God will enlighten me when He calls me home.
> View attachment 33650


Ok, I'll bite: what does "discredited" mean? What "credit" was given? "I purport that this is an 'energy wave' linking the people in this picture - prove me wrong"? How about, "it's a glitch in the lighting, lint on the lens, a hiccup in the developing process," etc...? A long time passed where people simply said, "thunder is produced by the anger of the gods" before someone could prove it wrong. That didn't make it any more of a viable explanation. I think it's intellectually dishonest to cherry pick something perceived to be without an explanation, and say "my beliefs explain that." What about the TRILLIONS of pictures with no such mark on it, there is just NO energy among those subjects?


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## happy as a clam

Never mind...


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## changedbeliefs

Oh, COME. ON!?!!

https://concordiaabchao.wordpress.com/2014/03/04/japanese-scientists-prove-auras-exist-or-did-they/

"I saw an article on Davi****e.com today titled: “Japanese Scientists Prove That Auras Actually Exist”. I thought: cool, finally someone did that. Then I read the article and wanted to see the source...[h]owever there is no link to the study....I decided to google Mio Watanabe, aura and University of Tokyo. I found another article...[t]here is no mention of Mio Watanabe, University of Tokyo or even Japan...[a]s far as I can tell *the origin of this alleged study is Anna LeMind of learning-mind.com*..._t seems like another new agey hoax. Someone is saying something that all of the New Agers and truthseekers already believe, so they believe the person saying it, because they want to believe it."

The "proof" is COMPLETEY UNFOUNDED, and you declare "I'm glad others have too"?? Have what, perpetuated a myth?

happy as a clam: you're open to ALL things, huh? Ok, are you open to atheism? Are you open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, your doctrine is completely wrong? That believing in a god that loves us all so much, yet wipes out millions of people every year through suffering, tragedy, disease, illness, may just be harder to swallow than, "there is no god, and life just sucks sometimes"? Your clear anxiety and urgency all starts with, "there's a god and jesus just waiting to enlighten us" - if you attached any other name to it, you'd probably think, "that's crazy," yet there's as much proof for any other name as there is for the ones you're using. Anyone who talks about "processing what is real" and includes Morgellon's, and Jesus, has a loose definition of "real."_


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

pragmaster said:


> -To everyone else, Would you even bother dating someone with this sort of spirituality? Why?


Me, personally? Nope! Not my thing. I'm agnostic; I find the 100% CERTAINTY of atheism as arrogant as the 100% CERTAINTY of theism. How can we know? We're mere humans. And just because millions of humans have believed something for millennia, doesn't make it fact. How many believed in Thor? Zeus? a flat Earth? Earth as the center of the universe? etc... I have no problem saying 'I don't know if there is god/s'. 

So, no, I would not date someone with beliefs like yours. Then again, I wouldn't date a Jewish rabbi, a Presbyterian minister, an Anglican priest either...although I'd DEFINITELY make an exception for Sydney on Grantchester! But that's because he's a very kind, caring, human priest who chain-smokes, drinks to excess, and fornicates...but I digress....


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## happy as a clam

changedbeliefs said:


> happy as a clam: you're open to ALL things, huh? *Ok, are you open to atheism?* Are you open to the idea that maybe, just maybe, your doctrine is completely wrong? That believing in a god that loves us all so much, yet wipes out millions of people every year through suffering, tragedy, disease, illness, may just be harder to swallow than, "there is no god, and life just sucks sometimes"? Your clear anxiety and urgency all starts with, "there's a god and jesus just waiting to enlighten us" - if you attached any other name to it, you'd probably think, "that's crazy," yet there's as much proof for any other name as there is for the ones you're using. Anyone who talks about "processing what is real" and includes Morgellon's, and Jesus, has a loose definition of "real."


*Am I open to atheism?* If that's what floats your boat, go for it. But I'm not atheistic at all.

*Is my doctrine completely wrong?* I doubt it. Is yours???

I refuse to argue religion. Edited my previous post for that reason.


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## bfree

Atheism is a belief system just like any/all religious belief systems. And just like any/all belief systems atheism relies on faith. The only difference is the target of the belief and the source of the faith. I have friends that are atheists as well but just like my pagan friends we respect each other's beliefs. And like the clam man I don't argue. I share, I learn, I discuss, and I grow.


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## ScrambledEggs

Atheism is not a faith or belief system. Surely it is a feature of a philosophy but it is not religion. 

Atheists do not "believe there is not god" they require empirical proof of anything before believing it to be true. Strictly speaking Atheism is the lack of belief.

Agnostic relates to a persons view of knowledge and specifically to what can be known outside the material. A person can be an agnostic atheist who believes the metaphysical cannot be known or a gnostic atheist who believes the lack of any metaphysical knowledge basically proves there isn't anything metaphysical. Both viewpoints have marginal consequences so there is not a lot of debate between the views.

I would be OK with dating a pagan. Though I'd take extra care in developing the relationship. Even though I have many pagan friends, the pagans I have known seem to have a very high rate of personal and Psychological problems. 

The concept of "proof" being thrown out in this thread suggesting that auras and other things have been 'proven' and even that quantum physics shares some connection with mysticism seems dubious to me. I think all of this is a misunderstanding of either what "proof" is in science, what may have be shown in certain experiments that are misunderstood, and an outright detachment from what quantum physics is really about. Moreover, the "energy" thing, until someone can measure it, demonstrate it in the laboratory repeatedly, science really does not have anything to say about it. It should not conclude it is impossible but perhaps improbable to a high degree. One has to wonder if a one camera can pick it up, why not others and why not repeatably and demonstrably.


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## changedbeliefs

For the love of all that is sane....

Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism does NOT require faith. Atheism is NOT a belief system. It does NOT have a doctrine. Atheism is ONLY the answer to, "do you believe in a god?" That's IT.

Gnosticism is the answer to, "do you KNOW?" We can operate under the belief that something is real or not real, but whether we claim to KNOW it is different. An agnostic atheist - my category - says, "I don't claim to know there is no god, but I don't believe there is."

Analogy: I toss a coin into the air, and as it comes down on a table, I immediately cover it with a cup, while it's stilll rotating about. The following are your choices of opinions/reactions as to the result:

Gnostic: "I know it's (heads or tails)."
Agnostic: "I don't know which it is."
Theist: "I assert that it's (heads or tails)."
Atheist: "I reject the theist's assertion."

So say we have a gnostic theist who says, "I assert that it's heads and I know it with certainty." The agnostic atheist would respond, "I don't know which it is, but I don't buy the theist's claim." Why would anyone believe the theist? Forget that it's a 50/50 shot, it's an unfounded claim, and there's no reason to believe he's right. What if it was a 30-sided dice, and the theist now says, "I believe it's 6"? Still unfounded, and now their odds are much lower. It becomes more clear this claim should be rejected until there's some kind of evidence. The claim that your god, your religion, of the THOUSANDS is "true" is even more outlandish, and the atheist simply rejects such claims until proven.

One more: suppose I'm your neighbor and I come to you one day and say, "I'm really sorry to tell you this, but there's a nuclear bomb under your backyard. When it goes off, it's going to obliterate just your house (it's a really new type of focused nuclear bomb). You really need to move asap." Would you believe me? Would you claim to KNOW whether I'm right or wrong? Would you actually take my advice without any further investigation or proof? There's lots of options there. Atheism is simply the equivalent of "I don't believe there's a bomb under my house." IMHO, theism and religion is the equivalent of going "OMG, wow, holy crap, honey, get your stuff, we gotta move!!!!!"

bfree: I believe you're confusing the fact that most atheists are skeptics and critical thinkers, and that colors their worldview and actions in many other realms of discussion. However, an atheist is not directed to "believe" or "behave" in any way because of their atheism. It is merely a stance on a single question. Said in other words, a person being a skeptic and/or critical thinker is more likely to be called a "belief system" or "doctrine," and atheism is likely just one consequence of that approach.


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## changedbeliefs

Also, I'll leave this here. See #5 in particular, it's a common myth/misconception that is simply inaccurate.

10 egregious myths the religious perpetuate about atheists, debunked - Salon.com


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## pragmaster

Haha you guys are awesome. I forgot about this thread.

Thanks for the posts everyone.

I like what was said above how a little difference is good.

For myself, there is no possible way I could date a Christian, Catholic, Muslim or Atheist...but I found the people who get defensive about talking about any sort of theology are the ones who are the most insecure about it. I dislike being with negative nellies. I like having full blown conversations about spirituality and it's difficult with narrow minded people; be it atheist, christian, or whathaveyou. I'd like to say I wouldn't ever date one of those people, but a big turn on for me is meeting someone who is secure about their faith, even if it is bat **** crazy. Conversatives and prudes typically make me sick to my stomach though. 

Don't get me started on particular religions or atheism lol. I am happy to bash the ignorant lies that have gone on far enough. 

If you must know what I believe in, google Thelema.


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## changedbeliefs

pragmaster said:


> ...but a big turn on for me is meeting someone who is secure about their faith...


I cannot understand why people see "faith" as such a virtue. Faith is belief without evidence, without a good reason. Faith is the supposed control over that which is out of your control. It's idyllic fantasy, and we wouldn't endorse it in any real-world situation. Often, we use "faith" in place of "positivity," and I believe in the latter, to an extent, but the true definition of the former is irrational, IMHO. If I had an exam to take, I wouldn't sit back and "have faith" I'd pass. I'd study my butt off and prepare to the full extent of my abilities. I may then potentially "think positively" in the moment, I may "trust" my preparation, or I may "hope" it pays off, but I would argue all of those are irrelevant; either my preparation was sufficient or it wasn't. No amount of crossed fingers, self-motivational thoughts, or prayers to god are going to change that. I find it incredibly frustrating that a realistic, rational view of the world is often discounted in favor of someone with their head in the clouds who just "has faith" that something mystical is going to occur. Worse, when actual, real, tangible things are tossed aside, and instead attributed to the mystical. It's like thanking god after a team of surgeons saves your life. It's dismissive of the real things in front of us.


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## pragmaster

Hey dude! You are so lucky to have stumbled upon my thread. Please allow me to enlighten you. It's really simple. 

1) The external world is a reflection of your internal self. For a sorcerer, reality, or the world we all know, is only a description that has been pounded into you from the moment you were born. The reality of our day-to-day life, then, consists of an endless flow of perceptual interpretations which we have learned to make in common. The first goal of an apprentice to sorcery is to stop the world so that one see energy directly. The second goal is to eliminate every drop of fear in you so that your dreams become still, and crystal clear. The third goal is to destroy your ego so that you can truly appreciate the power of the universe and not invoke the wrong types of energy. All of these goals have a common goal of saving as much energy as possible. With all this discipline, focus and energy, one can then attempt to master lucid dreaming at will. Once the sorcerer eliminates all the crap that shows up in his dreams, he is free to fly away and do whatever he pleases, beyond the laws of time and space. Sure you could say it's all in your head...but the master sorcerer can dream in real time...and the legend says he can wake up wherever, whenever, however. The true term is brujo. The legend (this is the most important distinction between shamanism and everything else) is that one can slip into their dreaming body right before they die, and retain their consciousness instead of being channeled back into the collective to be reincarnated (Because our dreaming body's are in fact our ethereal body's). You have good reasons for believing what you do. Just know this...as crazy as I sound, there is a vast amount of knowledge around this subject, dating all the way back to the Sumerians & Egyptians. 

2) A sorcerer aims to be more than human by changing faith into two things. Will and intent. Thus the sorcerer can summon things in the world to occur and command the universe to lead him to his true will (or destiny). The world is full of omens from sounds, to animals, to winds...Most people ignore these omens and complain later...but if they followed them, oh how "lucky" they would be. Intent is just that. Looking at the sky and intending it to rip apart. Intending for something good to happen to them. Some people pray. A shaman commands. That is the difference. 

Think of shamanism as this. The ability and training involved with mastering infinite perception from a human or non-human perspective. Projected consciousness. Projected manifestation. 

I could talk forever about this stuff. I love it. And that's all that matters. I love seeing people passionate about things they love. Faith or no faith matters not...but passion... passion is life. 

My advise is to read some of Castaneda's books or go to south america to an ayuhasca retreat. 10 bucks says you wouldn't last a day. $1000 says you would come back "of faith". $5000 says you'll die. 

*In summary or in other words, the sorcerer is god and is the master of his own universe. He has full faith in himself and he represents the totality of all of his lives in this very moment. "Do as thou wilt, love is the law, love under will." That's it! *

I hope it sounds crazy. I'd be pissed if I were deemed sane.


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## ScrambledEggs

What would you call it? Essential gnostic exestentialism?

You remind me of a book that I read when I was a kid by Brian Bates, called "Way of the Wyrd". It was an interesting piece of history and speculative fiction on spirituality in the dark ages and contains most of the elements of Shamanism you describe. And no doubt the ancients believed something like it, but then they also murdered their children to keep the angry skygods happy so thats not much of an endorsement.

If cultures create their own realities, why did and do these realities match up so well as isolated cultures came into contact with one another? Whatever metaphysical there might be, there is an objective material world.

The bottom line on who I might date or associate with comes down to two things: Their ability to live rationally despite a few unfounded beliefs, and the degree in which they want to influence other people lives.

I am more less fine with proselytizing, after all I can always tell them to get lost, but people cooking laws and cultural rules around their unfounded biases is the serious issue for atheists. For example the Book of Revelations is an exceedingly toxic narrative to the development of a happy and healthy future on this planet.

Likewise, I'd not be thrilled for my State's laws to draw from shamanism because its so unfounded.


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## bfree

I respect the beliefs of atheists but I do have a problem with them refusing to admit to their "belief." It has been a bone of contention between my atheist friends and I. Many will claim they will not believe in God until there is some scientific proof. But how does scientific proof come to pass? By creating a hypothesis and then proving it. What is a hypothesis? A belief. And how many countless times did science believe something to be true but wasn't able to be proven until some later date. Will it be the same with God? Will it someday be possible to prove God's existence? Some atheists like to say "if atheism is a belief system then "off" is a television channel." My response is that all belief systems are centered on God, His existence or His non-existence. God is the TV. Religions are the channels. If you turn God off you still have to acknowledge the TV's existence.


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## Faithful Wife

pragmaster said:


> I hope it sounds crazy. I'd be pissed if I were deemed sane.


I think you nailed it, then.


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## ScrambledEggs

bfree said:


> I respect the beliefs of atheists but I do have a problem with them refusing to admit to their "belief." It has been a bone of contention between my atheist friends and I. Many will claim they will not believe in God until there is some scientific proof. But how does scientific proof come to pass? By creating a hypothesis and then proving it. What is a hypothesis? A belief. And how many countless times did science believe something to be true but wasn't able to be proven until some later date. Will it be the same with God? Will it someday be possible to prove God's existence? Some atheists like to say "if atheism is a belief system then "off" is a television channel." My response is that all belief systems are centered on God, His existence or His non-existence. God is the TV. Religions are the channels. If you turn God off you still have to acknowledge the TV's existence.



But atheism is not a belief system. it is lack of belief/faith. It is the product of the philosophy of rationalism. Call rationalism a belief system if you like, and you would be less wrong, but still wrong. Religions want us to believe things because of doctrine, or metaphysical "proof" and rationalists will only believe with material proof. What is frustrating is the desire to conflate those two concepts on equal terms. Are they both "worldview", sure, but one is about faith and the other exists with no knowledge or concept of faith.

Oh, and Buddhism has no god, so is that a faith? 

The hypothesis is "god exists". It remains unproven. That is all.

"god does not exist" as a hypothesis does not inform atheism in any way.

You frustrate your friends because you cannot view the world without god. In your world god is there right alongside the atheists and you can't separate the two out. For an atheist there is not god there at all.


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## pragmaster

"Way of the Wyrd" is an amazing book!!

This the physical plane of existence. Shamanism allows you to practice techniques that render your perception fluid (or assemblage point), so that you can take a peak at other planes of existence. 

There are too many tv shows and movies that have ruined it for real witch doctors. Everyone thinks they are crazy lol.

And yeah, sacrificing is powerful ****. There are two paths in life. The left and hand path and the right hand path. 

Those who separate from the divine (left) and those who merge with it. Satanaism, Atheism and Shamanism actually all belong to the left.


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## bfree

ScrambledEggs said:


> But atheism is not a belief system. it is lack of belief/faith. It is the product of the philosophy of rationalism. Call rationalism a belief system if you like, and you would be less wrong, but still wrong. Religions want us to believe things because of doctrine, or metaphysical "proof" and rationalists will only believe with material proof. What is frustrating is the desire to conflate those two concepts on equal terms. Are they both "worldview", sure, but one is about faith and the other exists with no knowledge or concept of faith.
> 
> Oh, and Buddhism has no god, so is that a faith?
> 
> The hypothesis is "god exists". It remains unproven. That is all.
> 
> "god does not exist" as a hypothesis does not inform atheism in any way.
> 
> You frustrate your friends because you cannot view the world without god. In your world god is there right alongside the atheists and you can't separate the two out. For an atheist there is not god there at all.


Oh, don't get me wrong. My friends and I have lively discussions. But I wouldn't say they are frustrated and I'm certainly not frustrated. I actually love hearing different points of views. And I can indeed envision a world without God. I'm not so Christian that I'm no earthly good. I can see opposing viewpoints very well. I guess I just can't see how one can so fervently deny God's existence? Has His existence been proven? To me yes of course. To those that do not believe He exists, not yet. I believe one day it will. But to be so absolutely sure that God doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing. As I've said I have friends that are from many different faiths. Yes even some Buddhists. I even have one very good friend that has her own very specific belief system. She feels that we are all made of energy and that when we die that energy (soul?) is released and travels back to a reservoir where it shares and interacts with a collective intelligence. She says that is her vision of God. That is her creator. I respect her beliefs even if I don't share them. Who am I to tell her that what she believes is wrong? But to believe nothing? There is just too much evidence to the contrary for me.


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## bfree

pragmaster said:


> "Way of the Wyrd" is an amazing book!!
> 
> This the physical plane of existence. Shamanism allows you to practice techniques that render your perception fluid (or assemblage point), so that you can take a peak at other planes of existence.
> 
> There are too many tv shows and movies that have ruined it for real witch doctors. Everyone thinks they are crazy lol.
> 
> And yeah, sacrificing is powerful ****. There are two paths in life. The left and hand path and the right hand path.
> 
> Those who separate from the divine (left) and those who merge with it. Satanaism, Atheism and Shamanism actually all belong to the left.


I'm really enjoying your posts pragmaster. And no I'm not being sarcastic. I've never been one to restrict myself to only those that share my narrow points of view. I feel like the one thing we can always do is learn and grow.

In your previous post when you talked about sorcerers the first thing that came into my mind was "The Secret." Ever heard of it?


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## ScrambledEggs

bfree said:


> But to be so absolutely sure that God doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing.


But to be so absolutely sure that Unicorns doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing.


Not trying to be a **** just pointing out that its the same thing.

Also, what you are describing is a gnostic atheist. There are other kinds of athiests and you don't have to be sure god does not exist to be an atheist.

You idea of proof seems to be different than what atheists would view as proof. Observable, repeatable, measurable and plausible.

For example we know of the existence of extraterrestrial planets because of their gravity signature, not because we can see them (at last not all of them). We deduce with high confidence that there is a planet there, but we also can't strictly prove that it is not a giant jelly donut that is creating the gravity well. But we find the idea of a giant jelly donut implausable and would definitely have to see that to believe it. But, and this is important, in neither cause is there a proof, there is just a high and lower level of confidence in the outcome of an empirical observation. Only an empirical observation settles the matter.


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## bfree

ScrambledEggs said:


> But to be so absolutely sure that Unicorns doesn't exist? To me that's a bigger stretch than believing.
> 
> 
> Not trying to be a **** just pointing out that its the same thing.
> 
> Also, what you are describing is a gnostic atheist. There are other kinds of athiests and you don't have to be sure god does not exist to be an atheist.
> 
> You idea of proof seems to be different than what atheists would view as proof. Observable, repeatable, measurable and plausible.
> 
> For example we know of the existence of extraterrestrial planets because of their gravity signature, not because we can see them (at last not all of them). We deduce with high confidence that there is a planet there, but we also can't strictly prove that it is not a giant jelly donut that is creating the gravity well. But we find the idea of a giant jelly donut implausable and would definitely have to see that to believe it. But, and this is important, in neither cause is there a proof, there is just a high and lower level of confidence in the outcome of an empirical observation. Only an empirical observation settles the matter.


I cannot with certainty categorically state that there has never been a mammal from the Equidae family that one could term a unicorn. In other words just because I've not seen one doesn't mean one never existed. Same thing goes for dragons, Bigfoot or pink bunnies. As I've aged the most important thing I've learned is that I have much to learn.

As for what level of proof I need to believe something all I need do is open my eyes and see the world. There is too much beauty for me to believe there is no intelligent purpose behind it. And I've experienced miracles in my life that I just cannot chalk up to coincidence. But we all need to make our own mind up about what we believe.


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## pragmaster

Yeah, "the secret" book/video is great! It's a different way to view Will and Intent. 

Guys, chilax lol. That is the problem with the world today. People are too reasonable, lack trust, lack faith (tee hee!), and their lives are dull and lack magik. 

Our mistake as men is to believe that the only perception worthy of our acknowledgement is what goes through our reason. 

I will repeat this once more: 

Our mistake as men is to believe that the only perception worthy of our acknowledgement is what goes through our reason. 

That is shamanism 101. Breaking habits, seeking detachment, aloofness, destroying the human mold, channeling will and intent, harnessing energy, practicing lucid dreaming, connecting with inorganic beings. It's all about learning and not closing our minds to that which is not presently perceivable.


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## bfree

pragmaster said:


> Yeah, "the secret" book/video is great! It's a different way to view Will and Intent.
> 
> Guys, chilax lol. That is the problem with the world today. People are too reasonable, lack trust, lack faith (tee hee!), and their lives are dull and lack magik.
> 
> Our mistake as men is to believe that the only perception worthy of our acknowledgement is what goes through our reason.
> 
> I will repeat this once more:
> 
> Our mistake as men is to believe that the only perception worthy of our acknowledgement is what goes through our reason.
> 
> That is shamanism 101. Breaking habits, seeking detachment, aloofness, destroying the human mold, channeling will and intent, harnessing energy, practicing lucid dreaming, connecting with inorganic beings. *It's all about learning and not closing our minds to that which is not presently perceivable.*


I've become a better man and indeed a better Christian by sharing my beliefs and by being truly open as others share theirs. Being devout and open minded are not mutually exclusive despite what many believe.


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## ScrambledEggs

bfree said:


> And I've experienced miracles in my life that I just cannot chalk up to coincidence. But we all need to make our own mind up about what we believe.


Sure, but what you are describing is metaphysical ecstasy with the beauty of the world. Which is a wonderful and fulfilling spiritual experience wherever it leads you, but it is not a rational argument for the existence of god. You are deciding this is true despite any real evidence and (apparently) do not feel comfortable with owning up to what it really is--a total act of faith. Apologies of for the psychoanalysis but I have no explanation handy for conflating evidence/facts with belief/faith.


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## bfree

ScrambledEggs said:


> Sure, but what you are describing is metaphysical ecstasy with the beauty of the world. Which is a wonderful and fulfilling spiritual experience wherever it leads you, but it is not a rational argument for the existence of god. You are deciding this is true despite any real evidence and (apparently) do not feel comfortable with owning up to what it really is--a total act of faith. Apologies of for the psychoanalysis but I have no explanation handy for conflating evidence/facts with belief/faith.


People have believed in things long before they could be "proven." I believe it is less rational to see the world and conclude that it's just a random act of chaos than a benevolent act of an intelligence. And what is evidence? I'm sure that Copernicus received no flak for his contention that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around. And in the third century it was (correctly) theorized that the earth was round and not flat as many had believed. But not until 1518 when a man named Magellan circumvented the globe was the theory actually proven. So is my contention that there is a God but it has not yet been proven any more outlandish? Is it faith? Of course. But isn't faith just another name for having an open mind?


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## pragmaster

There is no such thing as a God like the Christians/Catholics believe. Anybody who believes in a man in the clouds that will judge them upon death is a blind fool.

The Hebrew bible and the Quran were misinterpreted. In order to know what truly happened, you must study the Book of Enoch, the Enuma Elish (Sumerian scriptures) and the Egyptians. Imhotep was Enoch. There was a link between the Egyptians, the "Archangels", the Jews and the Nicene council tried to remove this link from the Bible in the early AD's. 

Why? Simple. The Sumerians worshiped the Annunaki, a humanoid race from a distant planet with elongated skulls. They apparently came to earth looking for gold and found the Neanderthal man. The legend is that they created Adamo (interesting link) by genetically modifying our bone marrow and by giving us the gift of consciousness. Our purpose was to mine gold for them. When the task was completed, they were to return to their planet. But something crazy happened! The "gods" started having sex with the humans and they created the Nephilim! This upset the ruler Anu, and he decided that before they left they would kill all humans by not warning them about the colossal flood that would occur when there ship left earths orbit. (The great flood was real and you can find evidence in multiple cultures all across the globe). Anyways, one of the leaders, Enki, grew foud of humans. He guided the mighty Atra-hasis (known to others as Noah) to create an ark to save mankind. The thing is this. Christians believe that Noah took two of every animal. It did happen, but only DNA samples, using highly sophisticated extraction technology. It sounds crazy and I can't say I believe all of it, but it's much more interesting and plausible when you think about it, compared to other creationist stories. I don't believe evolution for a second. I think it's too "easy". I do however believe we were created by another race. I mean, we are going to other planets now and if we could "improve" something, why wouldn't we? We can already genetically modify organisms. Anyways... I love thinking and talking about this stuff, real or not. 

Hinduism talks alot about Vimana's, the flying machines of the gods. If they were gods, why the machines? Anyways, I love the show Ancient Aliens. You should totally watch it!!! I just love thinking what would happen if aliens invaded earth. What would the thumpers think then? 

Shamanism is like Satanism in a way but plus a few other important tidbits found in Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism. You are God. Do whatever you want. Remember what I said. The world is a reflection of ourselves. Just remember that.


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## Faithful Wife

(sorry, couldn't help myself)


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## pragmaster

That was awesome. Lol


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## bandit.45

Can one of you wiccans help me put a love spell on this hot little Latina I work with?


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## Faithful Wife

Rule number one: can't kill anyone.

Rule number two: can't make anyone fall in love with anybody else.

Rule number three: can't bring anybody back from the dead.


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## iridiumstream

*Re: Re: Pagan/Wiccan/Occult Relationships*



pragmaster said:


> Our mistake as men is to believe that the only perception worthy of our acknowledgement is what goes through our reason.
> 
> That is shamanism 101. Breaking habits, seeking detachment, aloofness, destroying the human mold, channeling will and intent, harnessing energy, practicing lucid dreaming, connecting with inorganic beings. It's all about learning and not closing our minds to that which is not presently perceivable.


It's all good when you keep this to yourself.

However, wanting to convince other people that this is "science"... That I have a huge problem with.

The human body is of course made of electromagnetic fields, but aura photography is still fake.

As for quantum physics, I trust you've studied it. I did, and the common "theories" about vibrational energy and who knows what are nowhere to be found in quantum physics.

Do you want to believe in those spiritual theories?

Fine! Just leave science out of it.


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## ScrambledEggs

Faithful Wife said:


> Rule number one: can't kill anyone.
> 
> Rule number two: can't make anyone fall in love with anybody else.
> 
> Rule number three: can't bring anybody back from the dead.


"Can't" or "Don't"


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## Faithful Wife

You'll have to consult the Genie Handbook.


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## bandit.45

Faithful Wife said:


> Rule number one: can't kill anyone.
> 
> Rule number two: can't make anyone fall in love with anybody else.
> 
> Rule number three: can't bring anybody back from the dead.


buzzkill


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## bandit.45

Lila said:


> Lol...saw your post and just had to reply. Wiccan magic won't work on Latinas. You gotta talk to the lady at the'Botanica'.


I actually had a Curendera heal me from food poisoning once while I was traveling in Nayarit Mexico. She did a great job. Gave me some skanky soup to eat and the next day I felt great.


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## changedbeliefs

bfree said:


> I cannot with certainty categorically state that there has never been a mammal from the Equidae family that one could term a unicorn. In other words just because I've not seen one doesn't mean one never existed. Same thing goes for dragons, Bigfoot or pink bunnies. As I've aged the most important thing I've learned is that I have much to learn.
> 
> As for what level of proof I need to believe something all I need do is open my eyes and see the world. There is too much beauty for me to believe there is no intelligent purpose behind it. And I've experienced miracles in my life that I just cannot chalk up to coincidence. But we all need to make our own mind up about what we believe.


bfree: you are using logical fallacies that apologists try to use by the truckload, and they are WRONG. "Too much beauty"????? There is cancer, disease, poverty, sickness and war at every turn in this world - all "God's plan" right? Why is 99.999% of the universe completely hostile to human existence? Hell, a lot of THIS PLANET is uninhabitable and will KILL a human were they to try to live there. There are so many examples of the UNintelligent design of the human body, you could write a book on it (youtube "Stupid Design" by NdGT).

You selectively see what you want to reinforce an irrational belief. Then you try to pass off "atheist belief" as just the other side of the same coin. That is dishonest and wrong. You completely misuse terms to fit your agenda. A scientific "hypothesis" is NOT a belief, certainly not in the same mode as a religious belief, it is an educated guess. You know what happens to that hypothesis when evidence won't support it?? IT GETS ABANDONED. You know what happens when religious beliefs aren't supported by evidence? They are HELD MORE DEEPLY because God is so "mysterious."

You continue to misunderstand agnosticism and gnosticism. An atheist is not "so sure" a god does not exist. GET IT STRAIGHT. An atheist simply does not believe there is a god. THAT'S IT. If I said, "I have a diamond the size of my refrigerator buried in my backyard," do you believe me or not? Any rational, intelligent person would say, "well, let me see some evidence. Until then, I'd have to say no." If you just say "yes," you are ridiculous.


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## bfree

Cancer, disease, poverty, sickness and war are all a creation by man, not God. This is another reason why I could never be an atheist. Since according to atheists there is no God they invariably focus on man. But it seems to my humble eyes that while God creates man tends to destroy. As for your fridge sized diamond, if it makes you happy who am I to burst your bubble?


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## changedbeliefs

bfree said:


> Cancer, disease, poverty, sickness and war are all a creation by man, not God. This is another reason why I could never be an atheist. Since according to atheists there is no God they invariably focus on man. But it seems to my humble eyes that while God creates man tends to destroy. As for your fridge sized diamond, if it makes you happy who am I to burst your bubble?


It is unreal to actually hear an apologist continue to make rationalizations for their belief... Did God create everything, or didn't he? Does he have a plan, or doesn't he? Is he omniscient, or isn't he? PICK ONE AND STICK TO IT. Did he create a world, and man, knowing we'd **** it up and create all that "disease," etc...? Then he's an *******. Or did he just start the wheel and leave us all to our own devices, and he has no plan, and we're all actually operating under free will....then what is the point of a god? For him to just sit there, watch us all **** everything up, and reward the people who still believe in him, DESPITE all that mess, and DESPITE all the horrible, confusing, vague evidence, DESPITE all the OTHER gods to choose from??? It is incomprehensible to me for someone to think so irrationally to buy into any of this.

But, you know what, you're right, if YOUR belief makes you comfortable, so what, have at it? BUT THAT'S NOT HOW RELIGION WORKS. People are trying to lobby MY government that my children should be taught that "everyone has a fridge-sized diamond in their backyard," to use my metaphor. I'm sorry that I'm not sorry to say, that is INSANE thinking.

Let me put it this way, there are three possiblities: 1) Every religion is right, 2) No religion is right, and 3) only some religions are right (and each religion essentially says, only one is right). #1 is actually not possible, there are too many conflicts, they can't all be right. #3 is possible, technically, just one could be right, but - let me think - how many wars are we up to trying decide that one, with no answer still? There is absolutely no way to sift through all the stories and books and rhetoric and contradictions to decide if ONE is actually 'right.' Funny, how each religion essentially says only the dead people know for sure.

#2 could EASILY be true. EASILY. And it is the only option that logic, rationality, evidence and critical thinking supports. Religions are man made (Mormonism and Scientology are obvious modern examples; why more ancient ones, founded on less literate, less intelligent people are seen as more advanced or more likely, escapes me), gods are man made. Man created supernatural explanations for things he couldn't grasp, and in leaps and bounds, we replace those fantasies with science and intelligence. The religious are being backed into a corner holding onto "well, but science hasn't yet explained A, B, C" as their basis to believe what's left. And their apologetics. I find absolutely NO value in continuing to "have faith" in something that, outside of religion, we'd have all let go of long ago for lack of evidence.


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## bfree

changedbeliefs said:


> It is unreal to actually hear an apologist continue to make rationalizations for their belief... Did God create everything, or didn't he? Does he have a plan, or doesn't he? Is he omniscient, or isn't he? PICK ONE AND STICK TO IT. Did he create a world, and man, knowing we'd **** it up and create all that "disease," etc...? Then he's an *******. Or did he just start the wheel and leave us all to our own devices, and he has no plan, and we're all actually operating under free will....then what is the point of a god? For him to just sit there, watch us all **** everything up, and reward the people who still believe in him, DESPITE all that mess, and DESPITE all the horrible, confusing, vague evidence, DESPITE all the OTHER gods to choose from??? It is incomprehensible to me for someone to think so irrationally to buy into any of this.
> 
> But, you know what, you're right, if YOUR belief makes you comfortable, so what, have at it? BUT THAT'S NOT HOW RELIGION WORKS. People are trying to lobby MY government that my children should be taught that "everyone has a fridge-sized diamond in their backyard," to use my metaphor. I'm sorry that I'm not sorry to say, that is INSANE thinking.
> 
> Let me put it this way, there are three possiblities: 1) Every religion is right, 2) No religion is right, and 3) only some religions are right (and each religion essentially says, only one is right). #1 is actually not possible, there are too many conflicts, they can't all be right. #3 is possible, technically, just one could be right, but - let me think - how many wars are we up to trying decide that one, with no answer still? There is absolutely no way to sift through all the stories and books and rhetoric and contradictions to decide if ONE is actually 'right.' Funny, how each religion essentially says only the dead people know for sure.
> 
> #2 could EASILY be true. EASILY. And it is the only option that logic, rationality, evidence and critical thinking supports. Religions are man made (Mormonism and Scientology are obvious modern examples; why more ancient ones, founded on less literate, less intelligent people are seen as more advanced or more likely, escapes me), gods are man made. Man created supernatural explanations for things he couldn't grasp, and in leaps and bounds, we replace those fantasies with science and intelligence. The religious are being backed into a corner holding onto "well, but science hasn't yet explained A, B, C" as their basis to believe what's left. And their apologetics. I find absolutely NO value in continuing to "have faith" in something that, outside of religion, we'd have all let go of long ago for lack of evidence.


You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that all those who profess a belief in Christianity believe exactly the same. I do believe that God is present in our lives, can answer prayers and will perform miracles (limited and usually dispensed in the form of divine knowledge and guidance.) I do not believe that He is a micro-manager. In His infinite wisdom God gave us free will. We use that will to conduct our lives and to, as you so eloquently put it, **** things up (on occasion.) If you must categorize and label me I guess you could call me a modified deist. Look it up if you desire.

As for which religion is "right" I have a 4th choice for you. They all are. I believe all religions are essentially focused on the exact same thing but in differing ways. All religions are searching for meaning, for a purpose, for a creator. All religions have settled on their own particular belief structures. And all religions have at least one and in my opinion usually several aspects of the entire whole. In my way of thinking each religion has a piece of the whole truth. Since we as humans are not (yet) capable of understanding the entire truth God has revealed parts of the truth to various groups. Someday if we don't destroy ourselves maybe we will eventually be able to put it all together and maybe then you will have the "proof" you seek.

For what it's worth I don't really subscribe to any particular organized dogma or doctrine. I agree with you that most if not all organized religions suffer due to man's influence. Hopefully one day this will also be revealed and rectified.

ETA: I also agree with you that it is reprehensible for anyone to force their beliefs on anyone else. I would stand side by side with you in protest of that action. In addition to my deist beliefs I am also a libertarian. It kind of goes well together if you ask me.


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## changedbeliefs

Your 4th choice was my 1st choice. ?? Don't backdoor the argument with some philosophical loophole. I get that every religion THINKS it's being moral, thinks it's guiding its people toward a good life, and usually an afterlife, as well. I'm not talking about the common threads of religion that may be a societal benefit (as an aside: I maintain any religion's benefit can be achieved secularly).

My point is, NO religion preaches tolerance for another. If you are a Muslim, you believe Christians don't get the virgins. If you're a Christian, the Muslims are going to hell. The Christians think the Muslims have it wrong. The Muslims think the Christians have it wrong, and on and on. Under the inherent tenets of any one religion, the others "have it wrong." Simple as that.

Furthermore, there is no evidence that one HAS to be right. Sure, there are people who hope there is, I get it, an afterlife, paradise, trying to make sense of suffering, etc..., just making up this all powerful being who's looking out for you, has a plan for you, has a mansion in the sky waiting for you....it all gives off a highly optimistic aura. That doesn't make it true. I would love to believe that one day, I will hit the lottery. It would make me feel so much better about my life, about my future, if I KNEW it would happen one day, if I believed it. That doesn't mean it will happen, and I would certainly have no evidence to provide in its favor, either. Even if I played 100 tickets every week, my odds would be astronomical, but can you imagine if I walked around, talking with certainty every day, about what I was going to do with my winnings? What if I actually started spending the money I have now, going broke, because "one day my millions are coming, so it's not a problem"? We have to operate on evidence and good reason for our beliefs, IMHO, and belief in a god simply doesn't coincide with that mindset.


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## pragmaster

Guys...take the debate elsewhere lol.

For the record, cancer and diseases are actually caused by energies that have not been cleared from a persons aura. This is often why cancer comes back, because the energy was not cleared. It's quite simple. Usually the spot of disease is where the negative energy came in. You can treat the physical body all you want but we are souls before anything, so one must correct the auric fields first. 

Those who disprove souls are just blind idiots. Enjoy rotting in the ground because if that is what you believe that is where you shall be. 

I just told you guys the secrets of the universe, immortal consciousness. Your loss if you don't agree. You'll find out when you die the hard way like most humans. Tough luck. Life after life after life until you finally see. This is the difference between shamanism and everything else. We are patient because we know that our evolution is individual before collective. Muslims,Catholics, Christians...all that stuff is great for raising your vibration and practicing love, but the moment you are not living in full unconditional love, well, that is when you lose. It doesn't matter what you study or believe. Shut up and love! 

Never allow yourself to live in revulsion.

Evolve from this physical plane. There is much more that meets the eye. Much more than just God. You are God. You need to drill that in your head until you can look at a building and watch it crumble. Your eyes can do more then what you were taught!! 

Study Thelema. Study Castaneda. Open your third eye. Talk is cheap. Thought is limiting. Transcend your fears! Transcend reason! Live a life of faith and love and you shall never go hungry. 

Yap yap yap


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## bandit.45

Buncha weirdos...


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## bfree

changedbeliefs said:


> Your 4th choice was my 1st choice. ?? Don't backdoor the argument with some philosophical loophole. I get that every religion THINKS it's being moral, thinks it's guiding its people toward a good life, and usually an afterlife, as well. I'm not talking about the common threads of religion that may be a societal benefit (as an aside: I maintain any religion's benefit can be achieved secularly).
> 
> My point is, NO religion preaches tolerance for another. If you are a Muslim, you believe Christians don't get the virgins. If you're a Christian, the Muslims are going to hell. The Christians think the Muslims have it wrong. The Muslims think the Christians have it wrong, and on and on. Under the inherent tenets of any one religion, the others "have it wrong." Simple as that.
> 
> Furthermore, there is no evidence that one HAS to be right. Sure, there are people who hope there is, I get it, an afterlife, paradise, trying to make sense of suffering, etc..., just making up this all powerful being who's looking out for you, has a plan for you, has a mansion in the sky waiting for you....it all gives off a highly optimistic aura. That doesn't make it true. I would love to believe that one day, I will hit the lottery. It would make me feel so much better about my life, about my future, if I KNEW it would happen one day, if I believed it. That doesn't mean it will happen, and I would certainly have no evidence to provide in its favor, either. Even if I played 100 tickets every week, my odds would be astronomical, but can you imagine if I walked around, talking with certainty every day, about what I was going to do with my winnings? What if I actually started spending the money I have now, going broke, because "one day my millions are coming, so it's not a problem"? We have to operate on evidence and good reason for our beliefs, IMHO, and belief in a god simply doesn't coincide with that mindset.


All the points you have made do not invalidate a belief in God. They just show a distaste and distrust of organized religion, a viewpoint I share with you btw. I am sure my pagan friends in this thread will correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that many pagans choose to join large churches or temples, others gravitate more toward smaller groups or covens, still others choose to practice solitary. All are acceptable as long as that spiritual connection can be achieved. I feel similarly. I don't need to embrace any particular doctrine, I don't have to pray with any certain group, I don't need to travel to any specific building to have a spiritual connection with God. As I've mentioned before I know several atheists and they are the most moral honorable people I know. Religion doesn't have anything to do with morality. I've also known many "religious" people that I would have a hard time trusting. And in regards to heaven/hell, that is not my reason for believing in God. In fact it really never enters my mind. Do you know that there are many religions that do not espouse an afterlife? I cherish my relationship with God right here, right now and feel very strongly that my spiritual relationship with Him strengthens and enhances my relationships with my wife and children. Now how can that be a bad thing?


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## bfree

Sorry pragmaster, I'll check out now.


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## pragmaster

Don't be sorry man. 

There is no right answer, because you are God, as I am. It's extremely simple and yet extremely powerful. This is the truth. Every single human on earth is a master sorcerer and 99% do not know it. They believe in a higher power, when in reality, that higher power is your higher self. 

Atheists/Scientologists take this too literally (they are too reasonable) and get upset because they think it means you can kill people and get away with crazy stuff (borderline nihilism). Actually you can, but there is karma, but it's also not the point. 

Christians/Catholics/Muslims usually disagree because they have witnessed the holy (but remember, the world is a reflection of ourselves). The beauty we see in others is the beauty we see in ourselves, and same goes for fear and negativity. The people that claim to be "good" yet judge the world for "evil" are truly twisted, sad individuals. There is no point in talking to these people. Don't worry about em'. 

Hindu's, Buddhists, Witches, Sorcerers, Satanists and Thelemists usually know where it's at! No need to hide anything . 

Namaste means I bow to you. Thank you for your time! 

And btw, heaven and hell are real dimensions for those who wish to go there, but absolute freedom... now that's what interests me.


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## ScrambledEggs

pragmaster said:


> Don't be sorry man.
> 
> There is no right answer, because you are God, as I am. It's extremely simple and yet extremely powerful. This is the truth. Every single human on earth is a master sorcerer and 99% do not know it. They believe in a higher power, when in reality, that higher power is your higher self.
> 
> Atheists/Scientologists take this too literally (they are too reasonable) and get upset because they think it means you can kill people and get away with crazy stuff (borderline nihilism). Actually you can, but there is karma, but it's also not the point.
> 
> Christians/Catholics/Muslims usually disagree because they have witnessed the holy (but remember, the world is a reflection of ourselves). The beauty we see in others is the beauty we see in ourselves, and same goes for fear and negativity. The people that claim to be "good" yet judge the world for "evil" are truly twisted, sad individuals. There is no point in talking to these people. Don't worry about em'.
> 
> Hindu's, Buddhists, Witches, Sorcerers, Satanists and Thelemists usually know where it's at! No need to hide anything .
> 
> Namaste means I bow to you. Thank you for your time!
> 
> And btw, heaven and hell are real dimensions for those who wish to go there, but absolute freedom... now that's what interests me.


I think I have a very open mind about things and I'd certainly like much of what you said to be true, and I think the redemption message of Christianity is also very compelling. In fact, having read the Bates book (twice) I am probably the 2nd most knowledgable person on Shamanism in this thread. It is all very compelling but then so is Tolkien's Middle Earth creation story where the world is brought into creating with music from god--just in comparison. 

But these are all just stories to me and I find no connection nor do I experience any truth with them. While you find some connection with the metaphysical and others find some sort to ecstasy with their relationship with a particular incarnation of god, I have none of that. Maybe it is that I am virtually devoid any intuition and reason is all I have, and it objectively demonstrates truth consistently and repeatably even if falling well short of complete understanding of the universe. If a god did make me, he must have known he was building me with absolutely no knowledge or of him or faculty to perceive him.


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## changedbeliefs

pragmaster said:


> For the record, cancer and diseases are actually caused by energies that have not been cleared from a persons aura. This is often why cancer comes back, because the energy was not cleared. It's quite simple. Usually the spot of disease is where the negative energy came in. You can treat the physical body all you want but we are souls before anything, so one must correct the auric fields first.
> 
> Those who disprove souls are just blind idiots. Enjoy rotting in the ground because if that is what you believe that is where you shall be.
> 
> I just told you guys the secrets of the universe, immortal consciousness. Your loss if you don't agree. You'll find out when you die the hard way like most humans. Tough luck. Life after life after life until you finally see. This is the difference between shamanism and everything else. We are patient because we know that our evolution is individual before collective. Muslims,Catholics, Christians...all that stuff is great for raising your vibration and practicing love, but the moment you are not living in full unconditional love, well, that is when you lose. It doesn't matter what you study or believe. Shut up and love!
> 
> Never allow yourself to live in revulsion.
> 
> Evolve from this physical plane. There is much more that meets the eye. Much more than just God. You are God. You need to drill that in your head until you can look at a building and watch it crumble. Your eyes can do more then what you were taught!!
> 
> Study Thelema. Study Castaneda. Open your third eye. Talk is cheap. Thought is limiting. Transcend your fears! Transcend reason! Live a life of faith and love and you shall never go hungry.
> 
> Yap yap yap


Are you a Poe? If not....seriously, you CANNOT actually believe all of that, can you!?!!? Why aren't you out there curing cancer with your "auric cleanses"!?! Can you back up even one OUNCE of ANY of that? And threats of "you'll find out" are cheap, charlatan shots that seek only to invoke and take mean advantage of a person's natural doubt, uncertainty and often fear of the unknown, i.e., after our death. To purport that YOU have figured out the 'answer' and won't have to 'rot in the ground' is arrogant, and patently false as well.

To paraphrase Sam Harris, to say you can't imagine what it will be like after you die, is really just from lack of trying. Right now, the vast majority of the world's humans are functioning in complete ignorance of my existence, and after I die, they'll continue to do the same. You, me, everyone will simply cease to exist one day, yes, and our bodies will decompose or be cremated and that's it. All the more reason not to waste time on this utter woo-woo and nonsense and simply make the most of this ONE life we have, here and now. If you think you know any different, PROVE IT.


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## pragmaster

ScrambledEggs said:


> I think I have a very open mind about things and I'd certainly like much of what you said to be true, and I think the redemption message of Christianity is also very compelling. In fact, having read the Bates book (twice) I am probably the 2nd most knowledgable person on Shamanism in this thread. It is all very compelling but then so is Tolkien's Middle Earth creation story where the world is brought into creating with music from god--just in comparison.
> 
> But these are all just stories to me and I find no connection nor do I experience any truth with them. While you find some connection with the metaphysical and others find some sort to ecstasy with their relationship with a particular incarnation of god, I have none of that. Maybe it is that I am virtually devoid any intuition and reason is all I have, and it objectively demonstrates truth consistently and repeatably even if falling well short of complete understanding of the universe. If a god did make me, he must have known he was building me with absolutely no knowledge or of him or faculty to perceive him.


That's cool man. Nah, you just need to go do Ayahuasca, Salvia or DMT.


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## pragmaster

changedbeliefs said:


> Are you a Poe? If not....seriously, you CANNOT actually believe all of that, can you!?!!? Why aren't you out there curing cancer with your "auric cleanses"!?! Can you back up even one OUNCE of ANY of that? And threats of "you'll find out" are cheap, charlatan shots that seek only to invoke and take mean advantage of a person's natural doubt, uncertainty and often fear of the unknown, i.e., after our death. To purport that YOU have figured out the 'answer' and won't have to 'rot in the ground' is arrogant, and patently false as well.
> 
> To paraphrase Sam Harris, to say you can't imagine what it will be like after you die, is really just from lack of trying. Right now, the vast majority of the world's humans are functioning in complete ignorance of my existence, and after I die, they'll continue to do the same. You, me, everyone will simply cease to exist one day, yes, and our bodies will decompose or be cremated and that's it. All the more reason not to waste time on this utter woo-woo and nonsense and simply make the most of this ONE life we have, here and now. If you think you know any different, PROVE IT.


What does POE mean? I believe everything and yet I believe nothing, which is often hypocritical and non-nonsensical. I say this and yet do that. I live in accordance to faith, or my "gut feeling". "Do as though wilt shall be the whole of the law, love under will." It's a good thing and it's gotten me very far in life. 

When you die, so goes your reason. So to become thoughtless prior to death allows one to observe the shift in consciousness, and possibly take control if they have mastered their lucidity...of course they cannot indulge in fear or pain like 99.9% of people. One must be calm as a turtle. Seems to me regardless that if there is even a 0.00000001% chance to gain immortal consciousness that it is worth seeking. 

Tons of books out there dude but again they are just books: Rumi, Drunvalo, Michael Talbot, Gurdjieff, the Kabalah, Lord of the left hand path, The Augura V1-V3, The Mahabharata, The Tibetan Book of the Dead, Way of Wyrd, Carlos Castaneda, Encyclopedia Britannica, Carl Sagan, etc...

I heal those who come to me. I don't need to prove anything to anyone but myself. Yes I can back up the facts, but are you willing to jump off the cliff? I have a network of shamans and we have helped all sorts of people; cancer & aids in particular. The problem with cancer though, is that while I said it's caused by the energy, I meant that, but it is also caused by air pollution (chem trails), lack of clean water, lack of ionized water (no energy in the water) and pesticides. Clearing the energy helps clear the "woe is me, self-pity" mentality that is the real plague. Most people are totally unaware that there is a negative force that has invaded human consciousness since our creation. They are called the flyers but there are many many names for these silly little things, that feed off of our negative ego. Dude I shouldn't even be telling you this stuff haha. My teacher might not be happy, but that's okay. I feel like it's time talk. 

Oh heck ya it's arrogant as hell ha ha.  

And yes your right, you can't imagine. But you can take ayahuasca, dmt or salvia, which will give you a near death experience. A chemical in your brain is released when you are born and when you die (this has been proven), and when you take these substances, the chemical is released, giving you a momentary out-of-body experience IN REAL TIME. You can do things and prove them to yourself, such as flying somewhere, into someone's house with your astral body, noticing the placement of things, and then after your experience (or meditation for the masters), come out, go check that spot and see if you really are full of crap.

Again, most people indulge in fears come go time. All I aim for is to destroy fear, eliminate thought, raise the vibration to reach higher forms of consciousness, and love, love love.


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## pragmaster

When I was younger I had a friend who told me how he remembered dying in his past life and I guess you could say it had a big influence on me. He had night terrors all his childhood. They ended up bringing him to a psychologist and he was perfectly fine in the end.

My friend knew of details of things that it was impossible he learned at that age. Things like knowing all of the controls on a plane, how to make bombs and other advanced military knowledge.

He drew alot of the stuff with ridiculous accuracy. His parents ended up going nuts because they couldn't believe that their little boy had died in WW2 and reincarnated. 

Believe it or not. I don't care. Everyone's got their perspective and reasoning for that perspective. I've read and heard of many such stories too after the fact.


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## pragmaster

And that is why I don't date Christians/Catholics or Muslims.

Lol


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