# Talk About Divorce...



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

This site makes me sad sometimes. A poster will come on here and say I'm not happy, I want to be free and live my life without regret. In other words, there is no cheating, no abuse, no symptoms that would usually lead to divorce, they just kind of figured out they are either bored or it's not the fairy princess life that they envisioned on their wedding day. Their spouse is getting in the way of their independence. And everyone cheers them on as some sort of enlightened snowflake. Nobody bothers and advises them to put aside their differences, remember their vows and work on it.

Maybe I'm just too traditional, but this is exactly why marriage is so avoided and dangerous and why I would never recommend it to anyone. If marriage is not the unity of One that we are taught, and is really a selfish endeavor that eventually anyone can sort of outgrow when it suits them, then there is really no point to make a lifelong commitment in front of your family and God (if you so believe). There is no point sacrificing yourself if it can all be thrown away on a whim. There is also no point in dragging children into this divorce psychosis.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I've been here for many years and I've frankly never seen this happen.

Posters suggest divorce when the situation seems abusive or truly hopeless with severe issues.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Livvie said:


> I've been here for many years and I've frankly never seen this happen.
> 
> Posters suggest divorce when the situation seems abusive or truly hopeless with severe issues.


From a post currently circulating in the Divorce section: "Good luck with everything. And good for you for choosing to be happy. I am starting to feel the same way in my marriage. I haven’t quite been married 20 years, but will soon be approaching that milestone and I don’t want to live the rest of my marriage in regret."


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## StartingOver2020 (Aug 9, 2020)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> This site makes me sad sometimes. A poster will come on here and say I'm not happy, I want to be free and live my life without regret. In other words, there is no cheating, no abuse, no symptoms that would usually lead to divorce, they just kind of figured out they are either bored or it's not the fairy princess life that they envisioned on their wedding day. Their spouse is getting in the way of their independence. And everyone cheers them on as some sort of enlightened snowflake. Nobody bothers and advises them to put aside their differences, remember their vows and work on it.
> 
> Maybe I'm just too traditional, but this is exactly why marriage is so avoided and dangerous and why I would never recommend it to anyone. If marriage is not the unity of One that we are taught, and is really a selfish endeavor that eventually anyone can sort of outgrow when it suits them, then there is really no point to make a lifelong commitment in front of your family and God (if you so believe). There is no point sacrificing yourself if it can all be thrown away on a whim. There is also no point in dragging children into this divorce psychosis.



I literally couldn't have said it better myself. Took the words right out of my heart.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

I cant agree more. They do say that each new wife is worse than the one before. I read about a woman who divorced her husband thirty years earlier because he wasnt 'bright' enough for her. Now she sees he has remarried with children and grandchildren which she thinks could have been hers whereas now she has nothing. I think that unless you cant live with your wife you have to stay married and not look for someone better. And as I started saying it doesnt always turn out that way. And if you already have kids then that is the worst thing possible.. To only think of yourself. In certain religions there is no divorce, although I dont agree with that, it at least shows what marriage ought to be.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Guys and girls... 

I don't know if you are reading the entire thread. But here is my take. 

For me, if you are posting in the divorce forum, you have kind of made your mind up...

I think that people that are talking about TERRIBLE, or abusive, or sexless marriages... Then yes I think TAM lays it out straight. 

If you are in a sexless marriage, you have actually talked, you have tried everything, and bla bla bla, then yeah DIVORCE. 

For lots of us, there needs to be a REALLY good reason to stay. 

And to examp, I don't know about you, but each wife, GF whatever, is not always worse, over time if you are not a moron you get better at picking... 

There is no reason to beat your head against a brick wall, whine about being unhappy and not have the BALLS to get out. If you stay in it and you know you are unhappy, then that is your fault...


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

It seems you didnt read my post. I wrote unless you cant live with your wife which includes the three things you mentioned. But many divorce just because the grass is greener. Those are the people I was referring to.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

examp said:


> It seems you didnt read my post. I wrote unless you cant live with your wife which includes the three things you mentioned. But many divorce just because the grass is greener. Those are the people I was referring to.


And I am saying that I don't see that day in and day out. Not I don't spend copious amounts of time on that particular forum, but I look at all the new threads. 

What I am saying is this... If it is not working, for whatever reason, and you have actually, courageously tried, the get the **** out already. 

Those of us that have been through it, understand what is on the other side and if you do it properly, and you grow as a human, brother (I think brother) it is greener on the other side, sorry. 

Saying for the kids, is crap and over all, in most cases bad for the kids. 

But yeah, I read your post.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

In response to the above scenario where the woman regretted her divorce, I do not.

Yes - my divorce was the most painful event of my life, however, 10 years later, both my ex-husband and I are better off.

And he is getting remarried to a woman with 3 little children, and eventually, they'll probably be wonderful grandparents.

Do I feel even a hint of envy or remorse? Nooo.

Having 'nothing' is highly subjective and a matter of perspective. 

Where some may mourn a void, there are those of us who now live simple lives in peace and quiet, and we're doing just fine. 😌


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## StartingOver2020 (Aug 9, 2020)

I think marriage isn't a feeling its a commitment. Yes you can fall out of love with your partner and vise versa but you have to be committed to fostering that love again. You don't just quit on your partner because it isn't conducive to you anymore. Especially when you have kids. To me you pull out all the stops including counseling before you get divorced. Especially when its not a mutual decision. But I respect others opinions and its enlightening seeing it from different perspectives.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> This site makes me sad sometimes. A poster will come on here and say I'm not happy, I want to be free and live my life without regret. In other words, there is no cheating, no abuse, no symptoms that would usually lead to divorce, they just kind of figured out they are either bored or it's not the fairy princess life that they envisioned on their wedding day. Their spouse is getting in the way of their independence. And everyone cheers them on as some sort of enlightened snowflake. Nobody bothers and advises them to put aside their differences, remember their vows and work on it.
> 
> Maybe I'm just too traditional, but this is exactly why marriage is so avoided and dangerous and why I would never recommend it to anyone. If marriage is not the unity of One that we are taught, and is really a selfish endeavor that eventually anyone can sort of outgrow when it suits them, then there is really no point to make a lifelong commitment in front of your family and God (if you so believe). There is no point sacrificing yourself if it can all be thrown away on a whim. There is also no point in dragging children into this divorce psychosis.



I moved out 2-1/2 years ago after 25 years. I can easily blame my ex-wife for not giving me the love I wanted and a whole list of other things that I expected in a marriage. I am equally to blame though. I went to the marriage counselor by myself because she had no desire to fix anything.

I was depressed, I started drinking more than ever, and I stayed on the front porch to avoid being in the same room as my ex. I was even sleeping in our spare bedroom. 

The benefit of me moving out was that I was responsible for my own happiness. I think I put a lot the responsibility on my ex-wife for my happiness.

When I moved out, I wasn't suddenly euphoric, but I was happier even though I was alone. I don't think my ex-wife needed anybody to make her happy. I think I was envious of that.

I don't really know if I made the right decision. However, I am happier, my ex-wife is happier, and our daughter is happier. On top of that, my ex-wife and I get along better than we ever did in our 25 years.

I came to TAM because I was miserable. Something had to change so I made the decision to leave. Being on my own, I was able see my part and learn to grow to not repeat my dysfunction. That's the trick.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

Not e


minimalME said:


> In response to the above scenario where the woman regretted her divorce, I do not.
> . 😌


The cases are not exactly equal. They wont be his grandchildren. If they were would you be saying the same.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

Trickster said:


> I moved out 2-1/2 years ago after 25 years. I can easily blame my ex-wife for not giving me the love I wanted and a whole list of other things that I expected in a marriage. I went to the marriage counselor by myself because she had no desire to fix anything.


I think that really says it all. If she has no desire to improve, even to find out what is wrong, then you are quite right to divorce.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

StartingOver2020 said:


> I think marriage isn't a feeling its a commitment. Yes you can fall out of love with your partner and vise versa but you have to be committed to fostering that love again. You don't just quit on your partner because it isn't conducive to you anymore. Especially when you have kids. To me you pull out all the stops including counseling before you get divorced. Especially when its not a mutual decision. But I respect others opinions and its enlightening seeing it from different perspectives.


And what do you do when you have done all that and your partner has done.......nothing???

It’s all about reciprocity. Is your partner also putting in a sincere, full-faith effort to be a good partner and to meet your needs as well? 

There probably are some people in the world that are so self absorbed and so shallow and so narcissistic that they pack up and leave the moment they don’t feel 100% fulfilled or the spouse squeezes the tube of toothpaste from the wrong end or clips their toenails in bed. 

There probably are some people that shallow of character that would divorce despite their partner for those things even when their partner is giving it their all. 

But I’m willing to bet the farm that the vast vast majority of those who file are truly at the end of their rope and their partner really isn’t stepping up to the plate even though they may think they are. 

I’m also willing to bet that for every person that leaves for frivolous or completely self-absorbed reasons with a sincere spouse, there are many more living in misery with someone that is either neglecting them or even outright mistreating them. 

Divorce is a salvation way more often than it is an evil force.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

The divorce rate is high because people no longer have to stay in unhappy marriages as they once did. I wouldn’t presume to tell someone who wants out that they need to stay. That’s their decision to make.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Let's make it more so.

My ex-husband and I have four children. The older two are estranged, and it's possible that they may have children that I'll never meet.

Throughout the past 10 years, I've made peace with their choices. I've let it go, and it no longer hurts me.

I will confess that my wiring is a little different. I'm not attached to the idea of my children getting married and/or procreating.

I want them to be healthy and happy and have fulfilling lives, and if they feel they're better off doing all that without me, then that's their choice.



examp said:


> The cases are not exactly equal. They wont be his grandchildren. If they were would you be saying the same.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

examp said:


> Not e
> 
> The cases are not exactly equal. They wont be his grandchildren. If they were would you be saying the same.


If they marry they will be his grandchildren. My husband sees my children and grandchildren very much as his, and they love him as a dad/grandad.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Openminded said:


> The divorce rate is high because people no longer have to stay in unhappy marriages as they once did. I wouldn’t presume to tell someone who wants out that they need to stay. That’s their decision to make.


You took the words out of my touch-screen. I was about to say the same.

The reason the divorce rate has risen over the last several decades is because people can. 

There is really no reason people should have to live in misery in this day and age.

No one should have to continue to be mistreated, abused, cheated on humiliated or even ignored and neglected in today’s world. 

Divorce is no longer the source of shame, scorn or poverty that it was 50 years ago.

Sad? Yes. Disruptive? Yes. Expensive? Initially yes. 

But will you get kicked out of your church? I would hope to God no. Will you lose your job? No. Will your friends and family shun you and cast you off in disgrace? If they do, they were either never your friend or they are total A-holes that you are better off without.

And in today’s western world, both men and women have access to education, job training, employment opportunities and since the divorce rate is somewhere around 50% depending on the source, people would be irresponsible and short-sighted to not have some kind of financial back up plan. 

Yes you may lose some furniture and may have to sell a new Lexus for a used Toyota and may have to go from a 6 bedroom, 4 bath house with 4 car garage to a townhome in a middle class neighborhood but nobody should be rendered actually destitute in a divorce unless they were financially irresponsible and negligent to begin with. 

“Till death do us part” is a concept and mentality that has caused untold suffering and torment and misery for centuries and I think it’s a blessing people are wisening up and realizing that mentality is flawed. 

If you are being treated badly - leave. There is no reason anyone should have to endure maltreatment or abuse or recalcitrant adultery. 

If you are mistreating, abusing or cheating on your spouse, then they should leave and you had it coming. 

Divorce is probably the medicine way more often than it is the disease.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I think lots of people come in with unreasonable expectations of marriage. And still others that are too stubborn to budge and meet their spouse in the middle. And ultimately it devolves into he said, she said pettiness when most of the time they both share plenty of blame.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> You took the words out of my touch-screen. I was about to say the same.
> 
> The reason the divorce rate has risen over the last several decades is because people can.
> 
> ...


Ok, but not talking of extremes like abuse and infidelity. In those cases, I agree, you should leave.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

examp said:


> I think that really says it all. If she has no desire to improve, even to find out what is wrong, then you are quite right to divorce.


Agreed.

Reciprocity is a thing. Are your efforts being matched.

We see it often here. An OP will come here and talk about the books they have read. The doctors and the counselor and the therapists they have seen. The deep soul-searching they have done from the mountain top. 

And what has their partner done?? Sat on the couch twiddling on their phone or watching people signing in front of judges on tv?? 

......or worse yet, still banging their AP?

Whether a marriage can or even should be saved is not up to how much work and sacrifice and sweat of their brow that one person does - but what the sum total of both parties and how close to equal they share in the heavy lifting together. 

If you are scheduling your day around counselor/therapist appointments and making Jeff Bezos richer from all your self help book orders and killing yourself at the gym to come home to your dinner of chicken and steamed vegetables while your partner sits on the couch with their phone and watching some bachelor/bachelorette screwing a dozen wannabe suitors when they haven’t laid a finger on you in a year -

- then it’s time to say, “Sayonara Sucker!!!” And make your own life.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Ok, but not talking of extremes like abuse and infidelity. In those cases, I agree, you should leave.


But I think in cases where some does leave, one or more of those elements exist to one degree or another. 

I don’t believe that a large number of divorces occur for completely frivolous and nonsensical reasons. 

I’m sure it happens here and there, but I think if one were to peel back the layers of the onion, one would find a certain degree of malfeasance.

It may not be the exact straw that would break your back, but it was the straw that broke theirs. 

I don’t think many divorces occur strictly because someone squeezes the wrong part of the toothpaste or leaves the toilet seat up. 

Somewhere in the chain of events is one degree of mistreatment, infidelity, neglect/abandonment, chronic rejection, alcohol/drug abuse etc. 

I think the number of divorces that have occurred between two perfectly kind, caring, compassion, faithful, sober people is quite small and the divorces that do occur in that population are probably pretty amicable and minimally destructive to all parties.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

StartingOver2020 said:


> I think marriage isn't a feeling its a commitment. Yes you can fall out of love with your partner and vise versa but you have to be committed to fostering that love again. You don't just quit on your partner because it isn't conducive to you anymore. Especially when you have kids. To me you pull out all the stops including counseling before you get divorced. Especially when its not a mutual decision. But I respect others opinions and its enlightening seeing it from different perspectives.


Hardly anyone wakes up and says “i want divorce” out of blue. It might be out of blue for a partner, but this person spent already years thinking it over. Trying to save the marriage, trying to understand what’s happening, why. If you read more posts on TAM, you will see how people were fighting for years for their marriage, only to learn this was one sided fight. And tgey reached the end where they are simply done, there is nothing left.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

WandaJ said:


> Hardly anyone wakes up and says “i want divorce” out of blue. It might be out of blue for a partner, but this person spent already years thinking it over. Trying to save the marriage, trying to understand what’s happening, why. If you read more posts on TAM, you will see how people were fighting for years for their marriage, only to learn this was one sided fight. And tgey reached the end where they are simply done, there is nothing left.


I think there are a lot of cases where it is the straw that breaks the camel’s back.

Things fester and build up and damage is accumulated over years and then one day someone makes a flippant remark blows off a simple request or makes one too many rejections or something that would seem very minor and superficial to others but for the person in question is the final straw. 
It’s the dam breaking after years of build up and repeated transgressions and issues. 

To outside observers it appears petty and self absorbed. But to the person in question, the relationship going forward is intolerable.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Which is helpful to remember before throwing around accusations of 'rewriting history'.



oldshirt said:


> Things fester and build up and damage is accumulated over years and then one day someone makes a flippant remark blows off a simple request or makes one too many rejections or something that would seem very minor and superficial to others but for the person in question is the final straw.
> 
> It’s the dam breaking after years of build up and repeated transgressions and issues.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I do agree with the op. Many people divorce for relatively minor reasons, sometimes they are just going through a difficult patch in their marriage and instead of hanging in there, remembering the for better and for worse promises, they opt out. People havent got the staying power today, they are too ready to run and abandon their spouse and sometimes children for sellfish reasons. They do get a lot of encouragment from others to do it as well, and the promises made at their wedding are quickly forgotton.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> You took the words out of my touch-screen. I was about to say the same.
> 
> The reason the divorce rate has risen over the last several decades is because people can.
> 
> ...


I doubt if many would expect anyone to stay in a marriage where they are being cheated on, seriously abused, or have been abandoned etc. I think the op is talking abut those who end their marriage for far more minor reasons.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt if many would expect anyone to stay in a marriage where they are being cheated on, seriously abused, or have been abandoned etc. I think the op is talking abut those who end their marriage for far more minor reasons.


And how many of these do you see?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I do agree with the op. Many people divorce for relatively minor reasons, sometimes they are just going through a difficult patch in their marriage and instead of hanging in there, remembering the for better and for worse promises, they opt out. People havent got the staying power today, they are too ready to run and abandon their spouse and sometimes children for sellfish reasons. They do get a lot of encouragment from others to do it as well, and the promises made at their wedding are quickly forgotton.


Oh please. Many people?

This is just like an old geezer complaining about these "kids today".

You are pulling this opinion completely out of your ass.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt if many would expect anyone to stay in a marriage where they are being cheated on, seriously abused, or have been abandoned etc. I think the op is talking abut those who end their marriage for far more minor reasons.


Other people outside of the marriage do not get to decide what is a “minor” reason. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> And how many of these do you see?


a lot.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

3Xnocharm said:


> Other people outside of the marriage do not get to decide what is a “minor” reason.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My husband former wife said that he didnt meet her 'emotional needs'. Yes that was minor.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I was married a very long time before I gave up. There may be some who don’t give a lot of thought to divorce but I think there are a lot more like me who fight it as long as they can. That might be a brief time or a very long time but it‘s totally their decision to make and I would never second-guess them. I live my life — not theirs.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> Oh please. Many people?
> 
> This is just like an old geezer complaining about these "kids today".
> 
> You are pulling this opinion completely out of your ass.


Nope, I have seen it happen many times and it happens on these forums as well.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Openminded said:


> I was married a very long time before I gave up. There may be some who don’t give a lot of thought to divorce but I think there are a lot more like me who fight it as long as they can. That might be a brief time or a very long time but it‘s totally their decision to make and I would never second-guess them. I live my life — not theirs.


I am sure you did make a good effort, some do and some dont.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> My husband former wife said that he didnt meet her 'emotional needs'. Yes that was minor.


Emotional needs -such as affection, love, intimacy, friendship. These are minor?
So what’s left? Economical union? Is that what marriage is to you?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> Emotional needs -such as affection, love, intimacy, friendship. These are minor?
> So what’s left? Economical union? Is that what marriage is to you?


Nope, she had a lovely, kind, caring, affectionate husband with great integrity, but she threw it away for what she thought she was lacking. I have been married to him for 16 years so I know what he is like, but I guess some will always see the 5% they think they are lacking and not the 95% they have.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> My husband former wife said that he didnt meet her 'emotional needs'. Yes that was minor.


That is in no way minor to the person it’s happening too. You thinking of it as minor doesn’t mean a single damn thing and I’m sorry you would choose to live that way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I doubt if many would expect anyone to stay in a marriage where they are being cheated on, seriously abused, or have been abandoned etc. I think the op is talking abut those who end their marriage for far more minor reasons.





Diana7 said:


> I do agree with the op. Many people divorce for relatively minor reasons, sometimes they are just going through a difficult patch in their marriage and instead of hanging in there, remembering the for better and for worse promises, they opt out. People havent got the staying power today, they are too ready to run and abandon their spouse and sometimes children for sellfish reasons.


I don’t think that actually occurs the way you say it does though. 

We aren’t privy to what goes on in other people’s marriages. We don’t see how they treat each other in their own homes or in their bedrooms. 

They may tell you they had “nothing in common” or had, “irreconcilable differences” or told you they didn’t get along well. 

But what they’re not telling you is that their partner stopped taking care of themselves and put on 50 lbs and smells like a dead skunk in the Alabama sun or that they haven’t touched them in 3 years because they’re spanking to porn or diddling around on the phone every waking moment. 

Someone may say their spouse has a drinking or drug problem but what they’re not telling you is they are smashed out of their mind every night and pissing in the bed. 

What you see and hear may be nothing compared to what is really going on behind their closed doors. 

Divorce is a heart wrenching, expensive, exasperating experience where people lose half their stuff, half their savings and retirement and half their time with their children. The vast majority are not doing it because someone left the toilet seat up at night.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> My husband former wife said that he didnt meet her 'emotional needs'. Yes that was minor.


Or did your husband say that his former wife said he didn’t meet her emotional needs? 

He has his own narrative. 

And if by “emotional needs” what she really means is that he lived his own life, had nothing to do with her, spanked to porn all the time and didn’t speak to her other than an occasional one or two word grunt to a direct question for years, that isn’t minor, that is a perfectly valid reason. 
Why should someone have to live like that?? 

I’m sorry, but Wife #2 never gets the straight scoop on what went on with Wife #1.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Nope, she had a lovely, kind, caring, affectionate husband with great integrity, but she threw it away for what she thought she was lacking. I have been married to him for 16 years so I know what he is like, but I guess some will always see the 5% they think they are lacking and not the 95% they have.


Just because he is a good fit for you and treats you well means absolutely nothing about how he treated her or what their relationship dynamics were like. 

Your needs are fundamentally different than her needs and your relationship dynamics are completely different than theirs.

What you see as a legitimate deal breaker is different than hers.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Or did your husband say that his former wife said he didn’t meet her emotional needs?
> 
> He has his own narrative.
> 
> ...


His boys have said similar as has a mutual friend, so I know exactly why she ended their marriage, althougth the fact that she had met another man by then may have influenced that. Oh and BTW he doesn't watch porn, never did in his first marriage either, and tried his best to always be a good husband. Some people though are extremely hard to please and high maintenance.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Just because he is a good fit for you and treats you well means absolutely nothing about how he treated her or what their relationship dynamics were like.
> 
> Your needs are fundamentally different than her needs and your relationship dynamics are completely different than theirs.
> 
> What you see as a legitimate deal breaker is different than hers.


I disagree, he is a very good man, a man of strong moral values and integrity and that hasnt changed. A man who believes in faithfulness, decency, honesty and keeping promises made. I know people who knew them in their marriage, including his adult sons. I have heard many things about her that my husband never mentioned. Not once have I heard him slagging her off, he isnt like that. I read what she wrote in their divorce petition, it was laughable.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

By minor reasons, I mean things like, I need to fnd myself, I am bored, my husband/wife doeant understand me, I got married too young, my husband/wife isn't the same as when we married, I want my freedom, I only get sex once a week/month and I want sex more than that, I married the wrong person, we are not soul mates, we are more like house mates than husband and wife, we are too different, he works long hours, she gives the children more attention than me, things arent the same now we have small children and so on and so on.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> so I know exactly why she ended their marriage, althougth the fact that she had met another man by then may have influenced that.


Bingo! As Paul Harvey used to say - “and now you know the rest of the story.”

As I said in earlier posts, when you peel back all the layers of a divorce, there is usually going to be some degree of maltreatment, infidelity, neglect/abandonment, alcohol/chemical abuse, chronic rejection etc. 

I think it’s rare to not have one or more of those elements to one degree or another in a divorce. 

There’s an old saying, “ divorce rarely ruins a good marriage.”


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I disagree, he is a very good man, a man of strong moral values and integrity and that hasnt changed. A man who believes in faithfulness, decency, honesty and keeping promises made. I know people who knew them in their marriage, including his adult sons. I have heard many things about her that my husband never mentioned. Not once have I heard him slagging her off, he isnt like that. I read what she wrote in their divorce petition, it was laughable.


I am not saying that good people don’t get dumped. Nor am I saying that everyone that gets dumped has done something terrible and deserves it. 

I’m saying that in most divorces, there is an element of one or more of those things I mentioned above to one degree or another.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> By minor reasons, I mean things like, I need to fnd myself, I am bored, my husband/wife doeant understand me, I got married too young, my husband/wife isn't the same as when we married, I want my freedom, I only get sex once a week/month and I want sex more than that, I married the wrong person, we are not soul mates, we are more like house mates than husband and wife, we are too different, he works long hours, she gives the children more attention than me, things arent the same now we have small children and so on and so on.


Those may not be justified reasons to YOU, but you’re not the one having to live in those marriages.

It’s all a matter of degrees. We all have our limit. My limit is not the same as yours and yours is not the same as mine.

It’s easy to point fingers at someone else’s divorce and say it was a minor reason. 

But to them, it WASN’T minor. 

Additionally, just because someone cited one of more of those things, doesn’t mean that was the actual reason.

“I need to find myself” usually really means, “I need to find someone taller, better looking and with a bigger Johnson.” 

“I want my freedom,” usually means, “I want to date/bang other people.” 

And so on and so on.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

StartingOver2020 said:


> I think marriage isn't a feeling its a commitment. Yes you can fall out of love with your partner and vise versa but you have to be committed to fostering that love again. You don't just quit on your partner because it isn't conducive to you anymore. Especially when you have kids. To me you pull out all the stops including counseling before you get divorced. Especially when its not a mutual decision. But I respect others opinions and its enlightening seeing it from different perspectives.


Just to be clear, no one, and not me for sure, is saying that marriage is disposable. No one is saying that you should not try everything that you should to fix it.

What I am saying is that after you have pulled out all the stops and done everything you can, don't be stupid and stay in a situation that you are NEVER GOING TO BE HAPPY about EVER!!!

And SO2020, I am especially not disagreeing with your perspective.

However the OP commented that TAM is too quick to say divorce. I disagree with that.

And I further disagree with "Staying for the kids", "Keeping the family together", "You made a commitment" and all of that crap.

I lived that, I did it, and I was stupid for doing it. And It literally almost killed me.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Ok, but not talking of extremes like abuse and infidelity. In those cases, I agree, you should leave.


And that is not what he,@oldshirt or anyone else on this thread is saying.

We are not talking extremes, we are talking, the marriage is not working, you have done everything you can do and it is still not working, the GET OUT!!!!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

@Diana7 keeps insisting on presenting us with imaginary, cartoonish version of why people divorce. People divorce out of boredom? Really? There was no funny videos on the internet to help with boredom?


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I’m sorry, but Wife #2 never gets the straight scoop on what went on with Wife #1.


That is the TRUTH.

There are three sides to every story - his version, her verision, and the truth. Not saying Diana's husband is lying, he's simply telling the story from *HIS *point of view. I'm willing to bet his ex's story is JUST as valid.

Lastly, I left my serial cheating ex-husband years ago. He actually told his new wife that I left because I wanted to "see what it was like to be single." I kid you not. I sometimes see her giving me a look and I know it's because she thinks I did HIM wrong in the marriage. I find it quite amusing actually.

So, all depending on who's telling the story, it's going to be a different version.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

One of the earlier observations kind of hit close to home.



oldshirt said:


> But I think in cases where some does leave, one or more of those elements exist to one degree or another.
> 
> I don’t believe that a large number of divorces occur for completely frivolous and nonsensical reasons.
> 
> ...


The divorce that I went through was about as painless as one could be. We compromised on divorce terms, I wrote up the agreement, and revised it as we altered terms.

Her reasons for divorce were interesting and I honestly took a couple as backhanded compliments when I wasn't in the moment. Some of the reasons she told me included:


I was in good shape for my age so she felt self conscious because she wasn't.
I made too much money. She could work as much or as little as she wanted and it mattered very little to our financial situation and it bothered her.
I didn't need her to do things for me. That is, if she was mad or overwhelmed she could literally sit on the couch when she wasn't at work and everything would still get taken care of.
I preferred to read instead of watching TV in the evenings.
The stuttering I've had as long as I can remember wasn't something she could stand anymore.
I couldn't finish her sentences or know what she was thinking even though we had been together for 20 years.
There were a couple others but they were of a similar tone. Some of the comments here have talked about "the straw that broke their back" and that was what she was describing. An accumulation of a multitude of minor annoyances that she could not tolerate anymore.

I think if she were honest, one of the things that wasn't on the list but was a motivator was that I was her first "adult" relationship. She moved out of her parent's house to move in with me. I was her first everything (as she was mine but that didn't bother me). She wanted to be independent and date in a way she never had before. She's found the dating pool to be quite different at 40 than high school... I don't think she's going to find it near as much fun or as easy as she thought it was going to be. She's mentioned that when her friends take her to things where there are single people, she's too picky and judgmental. I laughed out loud because its not my problem anymore.

I think we are both happier not living together so I guess there's that. We could have probably had an OK marriage with a slight change in her perspective but that is easy for me to say since I wouldn't be the one changing my outlook about things. I only identify her perspective as the one that would have to change because she was the one that wanted the relationship to end.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> This site makes me sad sometimes. A poster will come on here and say I'm not happy, I want to be free and live my life without regret. In other words, there is no cheating, no abuse, no symptoms that would usually lead to divorce, they just kind of figured out they are either bored or it's not the fairy princess life that they envisioned on their wedding day. Their spouse is getting in the way of their independence. And everyone cheers them on as some sort of enlightened snowflake. Nobody bothers and advises them to put aside their differences, remember their vows and work on it.
> 
> Maybe I'm just too traditional, but this is exactly why marriage is so avoided and dangerous and why I would never recommend it to anyone. If marriage is not the unity of One that we are taught, and is really a selfish endeavor that eventually anyone can sort of outgrow when it suits them, then there is really no point to make a lifelong commitment in front of your family and God (if you so believe). There is no point sacrificing yourself if it can all be thrown away on a whim. There is also no point in dragging children into this divorce psychosis.


Quite the virtue signaler you are! I have to disagree, and agree with Livvie, that people recommend divorce only in serious/severe situations. Also, the posters DON'T have to take any advice people give, they are at liberty to do what they want at the end of the day... If you don't like the site, and want to judge and generalize people...then get off the site, don't log in, it's simple really!


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

minimalME said:


> Which is helpful to remember before throwing around accusations of 'rewriting history'.


I agree, but most of the time the rewriting history part is what a cheater does.

Or it is the person that DOES NOT want to work on things, that kind of knows that the jig is fixing to be up, and does not want to be the bad guy. 

Those are the people that rewrite the history... My Ex tried some whopers…


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Those may not be justified reasons to YOU, but you’re not the one having to live in those marriages.
> 
> It’s all a matter of degrees. We all have our limit. My limit is not the same as yours and yours is not the same as mine.
> 
> ...


And along with what OS is saying, here is an example.

If something happened with my Fiancé, And please don't give me that your not married yet crap, I was in a 26 YEAR marriage.... 

But let's say that our sex life dwindled to nothing, and lets I had a serious talk with her and tried to find out what the issues were. And nothing changed, in a month maybe a little more. There is no health issue, she says she loves me, and all of that she just does not want to have sex any more. 

Now, I am 56 and a lot of guys esp in a long marriage would just live with that... 

I would not, I would not go much past a month, for ANY WOMAN... If you are not into me, fine, go your own way. What ever the reason is I AM OUT...

Some would say I am unreasonable... I would say kiss my ass. I won't live that way. 

And make no mistake, this is the MOST wonderful woman I have ever been with, and that is actually saying something. 

But ever with her, I am not wasting my life for anyone in any circumstance ever again.

Thankfully, this is not happening, as evidenced by the fact the I have been up since 3:30 this morning. I may be tired, but my sex life is great...


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

Hiner112 said:


> One of the earlier observations kind of hit close to home.
> 
> I was in good shape for my age so she felt self conscious because she wasn't.
> I made too much money. She could work as much or as little as she wanted and it mattered very little to our financial situation and it bothered her.
> ...


I like this post it is quite revealing. It says never be too good. People want to be needed and wanted. That really sums it up she wasnt and I say she was right. You are not for her. It wasnt her perspective but yours. The last thing on your list also says a lot. It sounds like you didnt value her because you had no need to. You sound like that these observations mean nothing to you. And I guess you cant even understand them. I wonder how you are getting along with your present wife. 
I hope you dont mind what I am saying. I dont know who you are. This is a site where these things are discussed and I consider them important.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> @Diana7 keeps insisting on presenting us with imaginary, cartoonish version of why people divorce. People divorce out of boredom? Really? There was no funny videos on the internet to help with boredom?


I wish for Diana to experience a sexless marriage, in which her emotional needs are not met, so she can grow as a person to learn compassion and another perspective on life and relationships.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

Serious question ... how do you distinguish between rewriting history, and memories from different perspectives?

Take a vacation ... spouse A has a wonderful time at their dream vacation spot. Spouse B felt dragged along, and endures it with a forced smile. Now years later, during an argument the vacation comes up. Spouse A says "what about vacation? We had the best time". Spouse B replies "I was miserable, I only went because of you". Is spouse B rewriting history? From spouse A's point of view yes. A 'perfect family vacation' is being rewritten as a miserable ordeal. 

I am of the opinion that many instances of rewriting history are really spouse A finally having to confront things from spouse B's perspective and not liking what they find.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I wish for Diana to experience a sexless marriage, in which her emotional needs are not met, so she can grow as a person to learn compassion and another perspective on life and relationships.


I’m not directing this at Diana specifically but rather a general statement. 

But there are people that think there is some kind of Martyr Award or some kind of prize or reward for enduring and living in misery. Some even seem to have a sense of pride or bragging rights on how much they can endure and sacrifice. Or think there is some kind of pay off and 85 vestal virgins waiting for them at the end. 

News flash - there isn’t. 

Living in misery gets you nothing more than a miserable life.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I understand that people flat out lie and make up stories that aren't true, but accusing someone of altering a shared experience is more of a mind game. 

For me personally, because of my family of origin, where reality was/is twisted on a regular basis, it feels like crazy making.

My ex-husband told me that I was rewriting history, and that we _had not_ had a sexless marriage.

Which was such an outrageous mindf**k considering that by the time I asked for a divorce, I hadn't had sex _in years_.

So, bascially, I was being accused of what _he_ was doing.



BluesPower said:


> I agree, but most of the time the rewriting history part is what a cheater does.
> 
> Or it is the person that DOES NOT want to work on things, that kind of knows that the jig is fixing to be up, and does not want to be the bad guy.
> 
> Those are the people that rewrite the history... My Ex tried some whopers…


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

For me in my waning years, I actually hope @Diana7 NEVER has to deal with anything I have had to deal with. 

She has her opinion, others have theirs.

How cool would it be to have a wife or husband that did not screw you over, did the right thing most of the time... 

I would not mind that... I think we should not be so hard on her. Or am I getting soft...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

minimalME said:


> I understand that people flat out lie and make up stories that aren't true, but accusing someone of altering a shared experience is more of a mind game.
> 
> For me personally, because of my family of origin, where reality was/is twisted on a regular basis, it feels like crazy making.
> 
> ...


I was going to stop but here is another crazy example... I tried MC ONE LAST TIME WITH EX, for life of me I don't have any reason for doing it I don't know why I did.

Bare in mind she was a drug addict, and she said something that was so silly, so untrue as to be laughable...

Then the MC said, look how do you know, you were wasted, you saw everything through the eyes of a drugged out person. I think that had an impact but I am not sure.

That is an extreme example, but even without the drugs, some people believe what they want to believe...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That is the TRUTH.
> 
> There are three sides to every story - his version, her verision, and the truth. Not saying Diana's husband is lying, he's simply telling the story from *HIS *point of view. I'm willing to bet his ex's story is JUST as valid.
> 
> ...


Years ago I asked my STB ex-husband if he had told his STB new wife (who was surprisingly not his AP) why I was divorcing him. He looked down and said “not yet”. I’d be willing to bet that she was told I was never happy. Of course, those AP’s over the decades might have influenced my mood just a little.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Which is why I simply don't do the he said/she said anymore - unless individual family members would like to join me in therapy where there's a mediator and a witness to what's being said.

People are entitled to their opinions. It's none of my business.

I don't explain or defend myself to those around me anymore.



BluesPower said:


> ...people believe what they want to believe...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> But let's say that our sex life dwindled to nothing, and lets I had a serious talk with her and tried to find out what the issues were. And nothing changed, in a month maybe a little more. There is no health issue, she says she loves me, and all of that she just does not want to have sex any more.
> 
> I would not, I would not go much past a month, for ANY WOMAN... If you are not into me, fine, go your own way. What ever the reason is I AM OUT...
> 
> Some would say I am unreasonable... I would say kiss my ass. I won't live that way.


Yes, some would say that was unreasonable...... BUT NOT ME!!! 

I’d be sitting there saying, “ wow! You went a whole MONTH???? 😲 

I personally think it’s absolutely crazy and nonsensical when these guys have a cow when their previously SAHMs get a job when the kids reach a certain age and that starts a downward spiral when they aren’t home cooking and cleaning and crapping out babies and they end up leaving their wives because they want a live in maid and nanny. 

To me adults work and have job skills and an income. I can feed myself. I can run a vacuum and wash dishes and throw my underwear and dirty socks in the laundry. That’s all part of being an adult too. I don’t need a maid, nanny or mommy. 

But I can’t have sex with myself and I can’t cuddle myself on cold winter nights. 

So if some guy dumps his wife because she wants to have an adult life of her own, it makes no sense to me and seems like a stupid waste. 

But if some gal doesn’t want to touch me, why would I want to be with her and I would be highly suspicious of why she would want to remain with me. 

The Point to all this is what one person thinks is intolerable and a complete deal breaker is trivial and senseless to someone else.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> For me in my waning years, I actually hope @Diana7 NEVER has to deal with anything I have had to deal with.
> 
> She has her opinion, others have theirs.
> 
> ...


The problem is she spouts opinion as truth. No, no no. And she has a total holier than thou attitude as she _disparages people_ who leave marriages in which they are extremely unhappy. The disparaging part, and putting forth her opinion as fact, are what's not helpful or wanted.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Livvie said:


> The problem is she spouts opinion as truth. No, no no. And she has a total holier than thou attitude as she _disparages people_ who leave marriages in which they are extremely unhappy. The disparaging part, and putting forth her opinion as fact, are what's not helpful or wanted.


Totally get you. However, to an extent I do that as well. For me, in my mind, I am saying "This is my opinion", but I don't always write that. 

So I get your point. 

But can we allow her some leeway??? Maybe one person in this cynical bunch that has not been **** on repeatedly???? 

Ok, I guess I am sounding like a girl now, no offense to girls...


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

examp said:


> I like this post it is quite revealing. It says never be too good. People want to be needed and wanted. That really sums it up she wasnt and I say she was right. You are not for her. It wasnt her perspective but yours. The last thing on your list also says a lot. It sounds like you didnt value her because you had no need to. You sound like that these observations mean nothing to you. And I guess you cant even understand them. I wonder how you are getting along with your present wife.
> I hope you dont mind what I am saying. I dont know who you are. This is a site where these things are discussed and I consider them important.


I don't think there will ever be a time when I'm hungry and I would wait on or expect someone else to volunteer to make a meal. Or see a mess and not just handle it. There was a time early in our relationship where I was busy with a college project and I asked her to switch the laundry over at the laundromat without me and I was told that she wasn't my mother and I shouldn't expect her to do my laundry. That was the last time I asked for help. My independence and self-reliance is both natural and learned.

It would probably be more accurate to say that there was a mismatch in our perspectives and expectations. There was certainly a problem with communicating them. I will agree that given that she wants someone that needs her, we aren't a good match. I don't think when she does find someone she has to cater to or take care of that she'll like it much.

I did appreciate help when I got it. There was never an act of affection that I received that I didn't thank her for it.

The divorce was final in March this year. I haven't been on a date. When and if I do date, the person I'm with will appreciate who I am or I wont be with them. I've been in a relationship with someone that didn't like who I was and I'm not going to do that again. If that means I'll be alone, so be it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> But can we allow her some leeway??? Maybe one person in this cynical bunch that has not been **** on repeatedly????
> 
> Ok, I guess I am sounding like a girl now, no offense to girls...


if trying to be fair is girly thing, we need to re-think how our society is organized.....


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

WandaJ said:


> if trying to be fair is girly thing, we need to re-think how our society is organized.....


And it has been reorganizing over the years and public opinions and mores and narratives change over time. 

As I said in an earlier post, the reason more people are getting divorced today vs 50 years ago is because they can. 

Our grandparents did not have happier or healthier marriages 50 years ago and they weren’t more moral or ethical people - they simply had fewer options. 

Not only was there much more public scorn and shame of divorce, but most commoners simply could not afford it. 

As most women with minor children did not work outside the home, unless the man had a high enough income he could afford to pay spousal and child support as well as house and feed two separate households, it wasn’t financially feasible for either party to divorce. 

It wasn’t so much “work on the marriage” but rather learn to live it and come to some kind of cease-fire truce that both parties could tolerate.

Those that could afford divorce - did. 

Even today when we do have more options and opportunities to better our lives, there will still be church ladies that will want to stand in judgement and try to be the ones that get to determine what other people should have to live with.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> if trying to be fair is girly thing, we need to re-think how our society is organized.....


I was not thinking that way, I was just thinking that woman are generally more emotionally mature. I think they tend to give people the benefit of the doubt more than men do. 

In that respect I think I was being more "girly". As men, we tend to come out swinging too often.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

3Xnocharm said:


> That is in no way minor to the person it’s happening too. You thinking of it as minor doesn’t mean a single damn thing and I’m sorry you would choose to live that way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No one is perfect and we all have our shortcomings and hangups...if you paid attention you can spot these prior to the 'I do'. If you marry, you are understanding that you are willing to meet them half way to either overcome these roadblocks or love them regardless and vise versa (of course this doesn't apply to infidelity, abuse, sexless marriages). If you are expecting perfect than you have no business getting married and bringing other persons down with your unreasonable expectations.


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

Hiner112 said:


> I don't think there will ever be a time when I'm hungry and I would wait on or expect someone else to volunteer to make a meal. Or see a mess and not just handle it. There was a time early in our relationship where I was busy with a college project and I asked her to switch the laundry over at the laundromat without me and I was told that she wasn't my mother and I shouldn't expect her to do my laundry. That was the last time I asked for help. My independence and self-reliance is both natural and learned.


I think that is your mistake. One sometimes has to let others do for you things that one can do oneself like let your wife make a cup of tea for you. I suppose you really surprised her with your request and that is why you got such a reply. There is no need to be alone. You did get a 'like' from someone maybe she is available!


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> Totally get you. However, to an extent I do that as well. For me, in my mind, I am saying "This is my opinion", but I don't always write that.
> 
> So I get your point.
> 
> ...


You can if you want. I don't personally care to give any _leeway_ for the continual disparaging remarks made about people and situations she has absolutely no knowledge about, and the holier than thou attitude. I don't like it. In fact, I think it's harmful.

So no.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

examp said:


> I think that is your mistake. One sometimes has to let others do for you things that one can do oneself like let your wife make a cup of tea for you. I suppose you really surprised her with your request and that is why you got such a reply. There is no need to be alone. You did get a 'like' from someone maybe she is available!


You’re kind of blaming the victim here. 

@Hiner112 being a good person and functional adult did not cause his divorce and being a functional adult is not an offense to marriage. 

She divorced him because she didn’t want to be married to him anymore. 

That was her choice. We don’t have to agree with her choice and we are not obligated to leave our spouses because our spouses are functioning adults. Her criteria for divorce does not have to be our criteria. 

But I think it is misguided to try to point fingers that he being functional and self sufficient is some kind of black mark on his record. 

He was not a deficient person or husband (unless he is lying and is a closet wife beater or cheater or clips his toenails in bed) 

But just because he is a good man and functional adult does not mean he was right for HER or that she needs your or Diana’s or my or anyone else’s approval to take a different course for her life. 

If she wants someone she has to babysit and nanny and take care of, that’s her prerogative. It’s not the choice I would make, but I am not her.

I have the feeling that Hiner is going to be swim’n in women here before too long once word gets out he’s no longer married because most women do want a functional adult and grown up that they don’t have to nanny.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> He was not a deficient person or husband (unless he is lying and is a closet wife beater or cheater or *clips his toenails in bed*)


You caught me. I don't cut my toenails often enough. I am also more likely to bite my fingernails than use a nail clipper. Both of which are divorce-able offenses.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

DownButNotOut said:


> Serious question ... how do you distinguish between rewriting history, and memories from different perspectives?
> 
> Take a vacation ... spouse A has a wonderful time at their dream vacation spot. Spouse B felt dragged along, and endures it with a forced smile. Now years later, during an argument the vacation comes up. Spouse A says "what about vacation? We had the best time". Spouse B replies "I was miserable, I only went because of you". Is spouse B rewriting history? From spouse A's point of view yes. A 'perfect family vacation' is being rewritten as a miserable ordeal.
> 
> I am of the opinion that many instances of rewriting history are really spouse A finally having to confront things from spouse B's perspective and not liking what they find.


That's what I am talking about mainly. The old blindside. Typical case I see, husband thinks marriage is pretty good, finances are improving, kids are doing good, they don't fight hardly, maybe could use a little more sex and all but everything seems fine in his mind. 

Then one day, wife hits him with 'I'm not happy'. And husband is totally surprised and try's to pay more attention, but to no avail.... she is already checked out and nothing he does seems to matter. 

Or what some refer to the Walk Away Wife Syndrome.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> I was not thinking that way, I was just thinking that woman are generally more emotionally mature. I think they tend to give people the benefit of the doubt more than men do.
> 
> In that respect I think I was being more "girly". As men, we tend to come out swinging too often.


still standing for re-organizing society in more girly (empatic) ways


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> If you are expecting perfect than you have no business getting married and bringing other persons down with your unreasonable expectations.


We do not expect perfect. What you, as outsider, judge as good marriage with no reason to divorce, has nothing to do what's going on in there.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> And it has been reorganizing over the years and public opinions and mores and narratives change over time.
> 
> As I said in an earlier post, the reason more people are getting divorced today vs 50 years ago is because they can.
> 
> ...


I can't stand in judgement, but a 50% divorce rate isn't healthy for society. Raising children in two parent homes is usually better, those are just facts. Of course, individual circumstances may make that not the case 100% of the time, there are always caveats if your spouse is a wifebeater or got caught nailing the babysitter, but just walking away because it's not all sunshine and rainbows and leaving a trail of destruction behind is the height of selfishness.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> Bingo! As Paul Harvey used to say - “and now you know the rest of the story.”
> 
> As I said in earlier posts, when you peel back all the layers of a divorce, there is usually going to be some degree of maltreatment, infidelity, neglect/abandonment, alcohol/chemical abuse, chronic rejection etc.
> 
> ...


Yea, but chicken and egg. Why did she cheat? Because she was bored with hubby or because she tripped and fell on a penis?

She may have given up on the marriage before OM entered the picture.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> That's what I am talking about mainly. The old blindside. Typical case I see, husband thinks marriage is pretty good, finances are improving, kids are doing good, they don't fight hardly, maybe could use a little more sex and all but everything seems fine in his mind.
> 
> Then one day, wife hits him with 'I'm not happy'. And husband is totally surprised and try's to pay more attention, but to no avail.... she is already checked out and nothing he does seems to matter.
> 
> Or what some refer to the Walk Away Wife Syndrome.


This happens, and it sucks...

However, the Female members will say that they tried to talk to their husbands until they were blue in the face. And he would not listen.

And to a certain extent, I believe that the wife "Tried to talk to him". I believe that the Man in this situation "did not listen, or did not get it".

However, early in my current relationship, I noticed my Fiancé saying some things that did not really make sense to me, then I figured out that she was "Giving me hints".

I put a complete stop to that "practice". I said, listen, if you want something from me, if you need something that I am not giving, if you want to do something, then you have to stop hinting. I don't do hints, I often miss them or misunderstand them. So I you want to hint you will be disappointed.

Conversely, I you tell me you want, or verbalize the things you need, I will take care of that almost every time.

And finally, the WAW syndrome is often mistaken by men. Often, there is another man in the wings, and lets face it folks often they have already cheated.

Both of these things happen. And we often disagree as to which one is actually going on...


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## examp (Aug 6, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> You’re kind of blaming the victim here.
> But I think it is misguided to try to point fingers that he being functional and self sufficient is some kind of black mark on his record.
> But just because he is a good man and functional adult does not mean he was right for HER or that she needs your or Diana’s or my or anyone else’s approval to take a different course for her life.
> I have the feeling that Hiner is going to be swim’n in women here before too long once word gets out he’s no longer married because most women do want a functional adult and grown up that they don’t have to nanny.


I do blame him. But from his replies and him not being angry at me (like you are) for doing it I gather he agrees and has learnt from it. I am also sure he will be 'swimming' and wish him the best.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> Conversely, I you tell me you want, or verbalize the things you need, I will take care of that almost every time.


yeah, that verbalizing things was not working too well in my marriage. Dismissed, ridiculed, yelled at.... I forgot that's what you are saying is even possible.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

WandaJ said:


> yeah, that verbalizing things was not working too well in my marriage. Dismissed, ridiculed, yelled at.... I forgot that's what you are saying is even possible.


Yes you are 1000% correct. There are men, and woman, that just do not get it. And frankly they never will. 

I have lived that as well. And it sucks...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I can't stand in judgement, but a 50% divorce rate isn't healthy for society. Raising children in two parent homes is usually better, those are just facts. Of course, individual circumstances may make that not the case 100% of the time, there are always caveats if your spouse is a wifebeater or got caught nailing the babysitter, but just walking away because it's not all sunshine and rainbows and leaving a trail of destruction behind is the height of selfishness.


Actually, these are not facts. Every one wants to think they are. There are lots of different opinions about this. 

And the other thing is, not that it matters, but I think the latest divorce rate is around 47 or 48 percent. Still high, too high. People dispute these numbers all the time. 

Now, of course, if you have two, happy, healthy, non-dysfunctional, balanced people (the mom and dad), well of course it would be better if the were raised in a household with mom and dad in a heathy marriage. 

I think everyone feels that way, but how often does that happen, Not VERY OFTEN... 

Further, I think that even raising kids in a household without visible love and affection between the two adults is actually worse for the children than the parents being divorced. Now this is my opinion. But I have seen it. 

In fact, I have lived it. Now, I worked hard with my kids and I was always there for the and supportive. But I raised them in a **** storm because I was "Keeping the family together". I got lucky with my kids. 

They are all fairly wall adjusted and successful in their lives, but that could have gone really bad. 

They still have some damage from what they went through, and they made it ok, but some of that is just good luck. 

However, everyone thinks that "Facts" are what you say (In this post) that they are. But the reality is much much different. In fact, there is real discussion about what the actual facts are.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Actually, these are not facts. Every one wants to think they are. There are lots of different opinions about this.
> 
> And the other thing is, not that it matters, but I think the latest divorce rate is around 47 or 48 percent. Still high, too high. People dispute these numbers all the time.
> 
> ...


I get that, and your case fits into one of those caveats I mentioned. I'm saying kids thrive more in a two parent home, as long as the parents are well adjusted. And a lot of that is raising a kid on your own is friggin hard with a full time job.

But I don't think it's as rare as one thinks. I think oftentimes people start down the mistaken path of thinking the grass could be greener somewhere else, instead of being thankful for what they have. Then in those cases the 'I'm not happy' conversation happens or they blow up the marriage by cheating.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I get that, and your case fits into one of those caveats I mentioned. I'm saying kids thrive more in a two parent home, as long as the parents are well adjusted. And a lot of that is raising a kid on your own is friggin hard with a full time job.
> 
> But I don't think it's as rare as one thinks. I think oftentimes people start down the mistaken path of thinking the grass could be greener somewhere else, instead of being thankful for what they have. Then in those cases the 'I'm not happy' conversation happens or they blow up the marriage by cheating.


My brother (Or sister, not sure), I don't know how old you are but trust me, two well adjusted adults, in a marriage is rare. You can figure 50% of the time. And I think that is generous.

I can think of my friends, and while they are nice people, some very nice, lots of them are not well adjusted. 

I think that you are buying into propaganda... I know you don't think that. 

It is very difficult to have a healthy, well adjusted, happy marriage. I wanted that, I tried, it did not happen. 

My Fiancé, while not perfect but close, is the MOST well adjusted woman I have ever know. And even she does things that blow my mind. 

I am pretty sure she is still trying to potty train me... She was a special needs teacher with small children for yeara, so she should be good for me...

If you are married, in love, and truly happy, then I applaud you and pray it continues for you...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> No one is perfect and we all have our shortcomings and hangups...if you paid attention you can spot these prior to the 'I do'. If you marry, you are understanding that you are willing to meet them half way to either overcome these roadblocks or love them regardless and vise versa (of course this doesn't apply to infidelity, abuse, sexless marriages). If you are expecting perfect than you have no business getting married and bringing other persons down with your unreasonable expectations.


I doubt many expect perfection. Some are excellent at hiding who they really are until after they’re married. Plus, people change — and not for the better. It’s not quite so simple as it might seem. If it were, many of us would still be married.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> That's what I am talking about mainly. The old blindside. Typical case I see, husband thinks marriage is pretty good, finances are improving, kids are doing good, they don't fight hardly, maybe could use a little more sex and all but everything seems fine in his mind.
> 
> Then one day, wife hits him with 'I'm not happy'. And husband is totally surprised and try's to pay more attention, but to no avail.... she is already checked out and nothing he does seems to matter.
> 
> Or what some refer to the Walk Away Wife Syndrome.


I think a true blind side comes in one of two forms. 

One is the dumpee is completely clueless and out of touch and either disregarded or ignored a lot of red flags and warning signs.

Or the dumper is some kind of sociopath that completely covered their tracks and intentionally deceived the dumpee into thinking everything was hunky dory.


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> This site makes me sad sometimes. A poster will come on here and say I'm not happy, I want to be free and live my life without regret. In other words, there is no cheating, no abuse, no symptoms that would usually lead to divorce, they just kind of figured out they are either bored or it's not the fairy princess life that they envisioned on their wedding day. Their spouse is getting in the way of their independence. And everyone cheers them on as some sort of enlightened snowflake. Nobody bothers and advises them to put aside their differences, remember their vows and work on it.
> 
> Maybe I'm just too traditional, but this is exactly why marriage is so avoided and dangerous and why I would never recommend it to anyone. If marriage is not the unity of One that we are taught, and is really a selfish endeavor that eventually anyone can sort of outgrow when it suits them, then there is really no point to make a lifelong commitment in front of your family and God (if you so believe). There is no point sacrificing yourself if it can all be thrown away on a whim. There is also no point in dragging children into this divorce psychosis.


It takes two to make a marriage. If one refuses to improve herself and lets herself go so that the husband cannot stand to look at her, I see nothing stopping the husband from trying to get away and find a woman that turns him on, not off. When I married my wife she was 17 and I was 23. She was cute, had a great figure and things were great. 18 years later she had put on at least a 100 pounds with each kid and is now about 500+ pounds, she packed it on and I got tired of working and then coming home and having to do all the stuff she was to lazy to get off her fat butt and do, including change diapers that the kids had been wearing all day. She refused to do anything about her weight.

I finally had it and left and filed for divorce. My current wife, while not skinny is nowhere near fat and gross. I am happy now.


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Openminded said:


> The divorce rate is high because people no longer have to stay in unhappy marriages as they once did. I wouldn’t presume to tell someone who wants out that they need to stay. That’s their decision to make.


Yeah they stayed in unhappy marriages but found something on the side that did make staying better.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WandaJ said:


> @Diana7 keeps insisting on presenting us with imaginary, cartoonish version of why people divorce. People divorce out of boredom? Really? There was no funny videos on the internet to help with boredom?


Ys they do, and I have read people saying that. People divorce for all sort of silly and crazy sounding reasons. I have heard many of them said or written by people who want to end their marriage, or whose spouse wants to. I cant believe some of them myself, but it goes to show that some people do treat marriage as very disposable and soon forget the promises they made.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Livvie said:


> I wish for Diana to experience a sexless marriage, in which her emotional needs are not met, so she can grow as a person to learn compassion and another perspective on life and relationships.


How kind of you.
If my husband could not longer have sex, or would no longer have sex, I would never end the marriage because the marriage is good and I love him. As for our 'emotional needs', one person cant possibly meet all of our needs, and isnt supposed to, thats why we have friends, siblings, parents, children, our faith, hobbies, interests, pets etc etc.
I have a very wide and deep perspective on life and relationships, I was of course divorced myself after a long marriage as was my husband. I have also been though very very hard things in life, and have several family members who have also. So please dont make such wrong assumptions when you know nothing about my life, thanks. .


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> It takes two to make a marriage. If one refuses to improve herself and lets herself go so that the husband cannot stand to look at her, I see nothing stopping the husband from trying to get away and find a woman that turns him on, not off. When I married my wife she was 17 and I was 23. She was cute, had a great figure and things were great. 18 years later she had put on at least a 100 pounds with each kid and is now about 500+ pounds, she packed it on and I got tired of working and then coming home and having to do all the stuff she was to lazy to get off her fat butt and do, including change diapers that the kids had been wearing all day. She refused to do anything about her weight.
> 
> I finally had it and left and filed for divorce. My current wife, while not skinny is nowhere near fat and gross. I am happy now.


Who is caring for those children when you arent there?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> I’m not directing this at Diana specifically but rather a general statement.
> 
> But there are people that think there is some kind of Martyr Award or some kind of prize or reward for enduring and living in misery. Some even seem to have a sense of pride or bragging rights on how much they can endure and sacrifice. Or think there is some kind of pay off and 85 vestal virgins waiting for them at the end.
> 
> ...


I do think that those with a faith may well make more effort to make a marriage work. Partly because they feel they have made promises and have a committment to their spouse and their children. Also because many people with a strong faith dont believe in ending a marriage except for the most serious things such as adultery, serious abuse or abandonment . Must admit that I wouldn't end a marriage if it meant I left the children behind. I will never understand how people can do that, they come first. 
My husband for example was not very happy in his marriage but he said he had made a promise to her before God and had children he was responsible for so he stayed and made the best of it and tried hard to be a good husband and dad. He never would have ended his marriage, but after 23 years she divorced him after meeting another man, so it happened anyway. Thats the sort of man he is and I love him for it.


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## Baldy (Jul 18, 2019)

DownButNotOut said:


> Serious question ... how do you distinguish between rewriting history, and memories from different perspectives?
> 
> Take a vacation ... spouse A has a wonderful time at their dream vacation spot. Spouse B felt dragged along, and endures it with a forced smile. Now years later, during an argument the vacation comes up. Spouse A says "what about vacation? We had the best time". Spouse B replies "I was miserable, I only went because of you". Is spouse B rewriting history? From spouse A's point of view yes. A 'perfect family vacation' is being rewritten as a miserable ordeal.
> 
> I am of the opinion that many instances of rewriting history are really spouse A finally having to confront things from spouse B's perspective and not liking what they find.


I have to remind myself that in most posts here, we’re only hearing one side of the story. (True abuse not included) We don’t hear the other person’s story or their perspective.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Baldy said:


> I have to remind myself that in most posts here, we’re only hearing one side of the story. (True abuse not included) We don’t hear the other person’s story or their perspective.


This is true. And I think we all realize that. 

However, the people on the other side, that we are talking about, usually say what you just wrote. 

That is why no one says it often. 

I will stand before every person in the world and tell my story, if I had to. 

But I don't, have to, and I really don't give a **** what she thinks. Late at night, before she puts he head down, she knows she is a horrible person, and that she abused me and her children. 

Then again I don't think about her that much unless it is a thread like this.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

examp said:


> I do blame him. But from his replies and him not being angry at me (like you are) for doing it I gather he agrees and has learnt from it. I am also sure he will be 'swimming' and wish him the best.


I've rarely gotten angry about thoughts of others on forums such as this one. I wouldn't take that as agreement though. I have learned some things from my marriage and you have prompted me to think about it a bit more.

It is nice to be needed. If she wanted to be needed inside the house, she should have done housework. If she wanted to be needed financially, she should have paid bills. If she wanted to be needed outside the house, she should have done yard work. If she wanted to be needed in the bedroom, she should have been affectionate or at least not denied mine. Her not doing those things demonstrated that I didn't. If she had needs not being met, she should have communicated them to me.

I should have called her to account earlier instead of allowing her to stop participating in life and our marriage. A confrontation would have been better than just hoping when we reached whatever the next milestone was or I tried a little harder she'd improve her mood or attitude. It would have ended earlier and I wouldn't have wasted so much time and effort.

LOL at the swimming comment. The thought of dating makes me tired. I know there are fun things to do with women but the last 5 years of my marriage mostly just provided more fatigue. It is hard to break that conditioning.


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> Who is caring for those children when you arent there?


It was back when I was in the Air Force and the answer was no one. My wife was there physically but she was worthless. The song "Momma she's Lazy" pretty much described her...


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

oldshirt said:


> I think a true blind side comes in one of two forms.
> 
> One is the dumpee is completely clueless and out of touch and either disregarded or ignored a lot of red flags and warning signs.
> 
> Or the dumper is some kind of sociopath that completely covered their tracks and intentionally deceived the dumpee into thinking everything was hunky dory.


I've seen a couple combo deal stories. One partner would spend years trying to change their partner or get them to deal with whatever relationship issue they had only to be ignored. Once the dissatisfied spouse gives up, stops complaining, and starts developing their exit strategy (whether it is emotional, practical, or whatever) the other spouse will think that things are getting better or the problems aren't an issue anymore because the complaining doesn't happen as much. Once the exit is ready, then the "blindside" happens. In a lot of cases, the dumper spouse worked on getting their financial and professional ducks in a row so the breakup could be as painless (at least for them) as possible like paying off debt, saving up for a deposit or down payment, getting a new or better job, or even something like going back to school. Alternatively, they spent the time finding the next relationship / SO where they would have the same relationship benefits (shared bills / place to live / etc).

In a kind of general way, this is how my marriage worked out. I'm not going to go into all of the specifics though.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Gomezaddams51 said:


> It was back when I was in the Air Force and the answer was no one. My wife was there physically but she was worthless. The song "Momma she's Lazy" pretty much described her...


I think @Diana7 was asking more about the situation after the divorce. When your ex wife isn't there to watch the kids, who did?


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## Gomezaddams51 (Jun 15, 2020)

By the time we were divorced the kids were old enough to fend for themselves, very late teenagers. Youngest was 16... I bit the bullet and stayed until then...


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