# What are your emotional needs.



## sokillme

So I was reading a blog the other day, actually a post on the blog and the female posters said that she resented her husband because he didn't meet (or provide) for her emotional needs. That got me thinking. Do most men even know what are women's emotional needs? I am sure they are individualistic but still what are women's emotional needs? Now I think I have a good idea but maybe I don't because it's not like it is talked about plainly. 

So my question are. What are your emotional needs? Does your husband understand what they are? Does he meet them? If he did how would that manifest, if he does or when he doesn't?

I think this would be a good thing for all husbands to read. Me included.


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## EleGirl

You are right that needs are an individual issue. Men have emotional needs as well. And to complicate matters, a person's needs often change based on circumstances. 
I think that most people don’t even really know what their own needs are, much less really know what their spouse’s needs are either…that’s ‘both men and women.

A couple should know each other's needs and try to meet them. And they should talk about this fairly often since needs change based on the situation.

That's why some people here on TAM keep suggesting that people, and hopefully the couple, read "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". The two books are meant to go together, to teach a couple how to identify their needs, talk about them and meet those needs for each other. 

No one can meet 100% of another person's emotional needs. But if they can meet a good percentage of them, it makes the marriage much stronger.

The idea of the two books is that first the couple reads “Love Busters” and do the work of identifying the things that the other does that are love busters. Then both stop doing the things that are hurting their relationship with their spouse.

Once the love busting stops, the couple can work on identifying and meeting each other’s needs.

Here is the list of emotional needs that MB identifies. The idea is that each person ranks the list from most important to least important and how they would like those needs met. And then they both work to fill each other’s needs. The book helps people learn how to talk about their needs, and to work on meeting them, as a couple. It’s not a onetime thing either since a person’s needs change over time. So, this is work that couples need to do on an on-going basis.



Affection
 Sexual Fulfillment
 Conversation
 Recreational Companionship
 Honesty and Openness
 Physical Attractiveness
 Financial Support
 Domestic Support
 Family Commitment
 Admiration


Here is a link to an article that talks more about this.

The Most Important Emotional Needs


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## arbitrator

*Preeminently, the ability to be listened to objectively!*


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## Horizon

My ex WS and me matched up on 4 of these - no wonder we bit the dust.


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## EleGirl

Horizon said:


> My ex WS and me matched up on 4 of these - no wonder we bit the dust.



Could you explain? What do you mean by your two matching on some of them? Why is it bad to have some similar needs?


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## Horizon

Actually it was 2 ! Sorry, I explained that poorly. What I mean is that out of this list of 10 needs my exWS was only fulfilling 2 of them for me. Looking at it again I believe I was fulfilling 5 of them for her.

This was dealt with indirectly at counseling we went to some time back. We didn't talk about needs directly but clearly she only needed me to meet 3 of them; as in 3 of them were important - Financial support, domestic support and family commitment.


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## heartsbeating

sokillme said:


> If he did how would that manifest, if he does or when he doesn't?


Recent examples, current needs. He listened when I shared the type of support I needed. He then demonstrated his support further, through his actions. When he says he's going to do something, he does. Being honest and reliable equates to trust. That includes when he tells me I'm losing him in conversation details! I'd rather hear it straight than him pretend otherwise. 

He was asking about my work. Sharing various aspects, he responded I ought to be in a leadership role and nudges me consistently to consider what's next or what I can achieve. Most of the time it feels wonderful to have him believe in and encourage me. Sometimes that can also be tiring and I tell him so. He takes that in his stride, agreeing with a chuckle that he's tiring to himself at times, too. Knowing he has my best interests in mind doesn't necessarily mean I'll agree or that he's correct, but it does mean I trust his intention. 

The physical affection, various touches, loving and lustful, being and feeling desired, and sharing in that desire with him is important to me. It's in the way he offers to scrub my back in the bath tub, the eye contact he keeps when we're together, rubbing my feet while we're on the couch together, to the more sexual erotic touch. The way he initiates and responds to me, body language and flirtation. 

There's the responsibilities of life and he looks out for us, shares in planning, pragmatics, and fun. We might have opposing approaches and occasionally there's mutual frustration but we manage to figure it out.

He pays attention to know what I'm currently interested in, sharing articles, music, suggesting or making arrangements. Heck I even like when he's ordered a drink on my behalf while we're out. I don't have a consistent drink, it's whatever has caught my attention that week (so really he can't go wrong) but still, he pays attention! There's also a respect and encouragement he demonstrates towards my interests / hobbies.

As simple and obvious as it sounds with being married, I appreciate and value that he includes me. When he first became a volunteer fire fighter, it was a small but heart-warming thing to have members of the brigade already know me by name, introduce themselves and help me feel welcome. While that's his path, it's thanks to his actions that I feel a part of this and included. He doesn't just share, he includes me, while still having his own thing going on.

He makes me a cup of tea in bed on the weekend.....! 

Knowing what speaks to your wife (to each other), what is suited to your personality and who you are in the dynamic of the relationship is what matters.


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## jb02157

I think they change as time goes by...or even daily at times. That being the case a woman can always say this about their man and their's really nothing he can do about it. He can try to meet the one's he knows about but could never predict when they change and what they are at any given time.


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## Vega

jb02157 said:


> I think they change as time goes by...or even daily at times. That being the case a woman can always say this about their man and their's really nothing he can do about it. He can try to meet the one's he knows about but could never predict when they change and what they are at any given time.



Would you say it's the needs that change or the _priority_ of the needs that changes?


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## jb02157

Vega said:


> Would you say it's the needs that change or the _priority_ of the needs that changes?


Both, thanks for adding priority because that's really important to.


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## Vega

EleGirl said:


> Affection
> Sexual Fulfillment
> Conversation
> Recreational Companionship
> Honesty and Openness
> Physical Attractiveness
> Financial Support
> Domestic Support
> Family Commitment
> Admiration


Ele, I'm confused about 2 points:

1. Without Honesty and Openness at the top of the list, it seems that the rest of the list doesn't really matter. I mean, if my partner isn't honest with me in conversation, then even if he's meeting the frequency of *my* desired amount of conversation, it wouldn't matter. I wouldn't want him to talk to me unless he's going to be honest. 

2. There seems to be other deeper 'needs' (possibly one common need) that drive the others. Do you notice that too?


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## sokillme

heartsbeating said:


> Recent examples, current needs. He listened when I shared the type of support I needed. He then demonstrated his support further, through his actions. When he says he's going to do something, he does. Being honest and reliable equates to trust. That includes when he tells me I'm losing him in conversation details! I'd rather hear it straight than him pretend otherwise.
> 
> He was asking about my work. Sharing various aspects, he responded I ought to be in a leadership role and nudges me consistently to consider what's next or what I can achieve. Most of the time it feels wonderful to have him believe in and encourage me. Sometimes that can also be tiring and I tell him so. He takes that in his stride, agreeing with a chuckle that he's tiring to himself at times, too. Knowing he has my best interests in mind doesn't necessarily mean I'll agree or that he's correct, but it does mean I trust his intention.
> 
> The physical affection, various touches, loving and lustful, being and feeling desired, and sharing in that desire with him is important to me. It's in the way he offers to scrub my back in the bath tub, the eye contact he keeps when we're together, rubbing my feet while we're on the couch together, to the more sexual erotic touch. The way he initiates and responds to me, body language and flirtation.
> 
> There's the responsibilities of life and he looks out for us, shares in planning, pragmatics, and fun. We might have opposing approaches and occasionally there's mutual frustration but we manage to figure it out.
> 
> He pays attention to know what I'm currently interested in, sharing articles, music, suggesting or making arrangements. Heck I even like when he's ordered a drink on my behalf while we're out. I don't have a consistent drink, it's whatever has caught my attention that week (so really he can't go wrong) but still, he pays attention! There's also a respect and encouragement he demonstrates towards my interests / hobbies.
> 
> As simple and obvious as it sounds with being married, I appreciate and value that he includes me. When he first became a volunteer fire fighter, it was a small but heart-warming thing to have members of the brigade already know me by name, introduce themselves and help me feel welcome. While that's his path, it's thanks to his actions that I feel a part of this and included. He doesn't just share, he includes me, while still having his own thing going on.
> 
> He makes me a cup of tea in bed on the weekend.....!
> 
> Knowing what speaks to your wife (to each other), what is suited to your personality and who you are in the dynamic of the relationship is what matters.


This sounds a lot like my wife and my relationship. I know this is not the case but this just seems like what you do when you love the person. I hope someone answers who doesn't have this so I get get a feel for what that is like. Not that I am hopping for them to have a bad marriage. I think it is important that we talk about these things as married people, to other married people. So many times you read when marriage go bad that there was a disconnect. It's kind of sad. I think people really don't know what it takes to have a good marriage assuming you are married to a person who has morals and character. I suspect that in today's society so many of us come from parents of divorce so it has never been modeled for us.


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## jld

I need to feel loved and taken care of.


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## MovingForward

sokillme said:


> So I was reading a blog the other day, actually a post on the blog and the female posters said that she resented her husband because he didn't meet (or provide) for her emotional needs. That got me thinking. Do most men even know what are women's emotional needs? I am sure they are individualistic but still what are women's emotional needs? Now I think I have a good idea but maybe I don't because it's not like it is talked about plainly.
> 
> So my question are. What are your emotional needs? Does your husband understand what they are? Does he meet them? If he did how would that manifest, if he does or when he doesn't?
> 
> I think this would be a good thing for all husbands to read. Me included.


Clearly I do not, it was something I had never thought about and not something my STBXW ever discussed in a way that was clear to me or I understood


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## Jessica38

While men and women do often have different top needs (some men list recreational companionship and domestic support higher than women list financial support and conversation, for example), Dr. Harley does state that the top 4 intimate emotional needs are most important for creating feelings of love in marriage: intimate conversation, recreational companionship, affection, and sex. If a marriage is struggling because couples are no longer in love, he recommends working on those first.

As to the Openness and Honesty question, Dr. Harley states that while most spouses list that in the top 10, it usually becomes a higher ranked need for a spouse who is recovering from their partner's infidelity or if that spouse tends to feel jealous or insecure in the marriage for any reason. Another example I've heard him say on his radio show is that if a spouse has abandonment issues, they will typically list that need higher.

Also, married couples who have kids will often list Family Time as a high need, while couples who don't likely won't.


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## sokillme

jb02157 said:


> I think they change as time goes by...or even daily at times. That being the case a woman can always say this about their man and their's really nothing he can do about it. He can try to meet the one's he knows about but could never predict when they change and what they are at any given time.


This is why I wonder if there are some general needs such as communication. Taking interest in things she is doing. Stuff like that. However I agree it's unfair to say well I really got into painting and you never took interested in that so my needs weren't met, if you have never communicated that this is a priority. However someone who does this probably is going to have a bad marriage no matter what. 

I see lots of people who have been marriages just expect their partners to be mind readers as far as what they need in a marriage. This seems to particularly happen with wives who detach from there marriage when there is a mid life crisis. Many times this doesn't seem to have been communicated. To be fair I also think a lot of times it has been communicated for a long time but the husband doesn't listen, doesn't get it or worst of all doesn't care. The same could be said of men of their wives. Sex is a primary need in most men's life for instance. But so many threads on here are about wives gate keeping. I think lots of these wives don't understand what that does to their husbands. They may be hurt or upset with them and don't feel like having sex with them, but at least give the guy a chance to fix the hurt. 

Anyway my too cents.


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## Jessica38

sokillme said:


> This sounds a lot like my wife and my relationship. I know this is not the case but this just seems like what you do when you love the person. I hope someone answers who doesn't have this so I get get a feel for what that is like. Not that I am hopping for them to have a bad marriage. I think it is important that we talk about these things as married people, to other married people. So many times you read when marriage go bad that there was a disconnect. It's kind of sad. I think people really don't know what it takes to have a good marriage assuming you are married to a person who has morals and character. I suspect that in today's society so many of us come from parents of divorce so it has never been modeled for us.



I think issues arise when there are Lovebusters, especially Independent Behavior. When one spouse has a high need for recreational companionship and their partner prefers to workout with friends, or never makes time to do things with their spouse, it can become a struggle in the marriage. If one spouse has a higher need for sex and the other doesn't, that affects the marriage. And after kids come, time becomes much more limited and affection, conversation, companionship, and sex can all easily fall to the wayside unless couples understand the importance of making time for those things and work to find it.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> I need to feel loved and taken care of.


How is that manifested.


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## jld

sokillme said:


> How is that manifested.


He listens to me, he's gentle and kind to me, he nurtures me. He would say he tries to be patient with me.

He provides for our family and takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.

And Dug never says things like, "That's your job." He understands that if something is bothering me, he is very likely going to be involved.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> He listens to me, he's gentle and kind to me, he nurtures me. He would say he tries to be patient with me.
> 
> He provides for our family and takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.
> 
> And Dug never says things like, "That's your job." He understands that if something is bothering me, he is very likely going to be involved.


On that note, you say he "He provides for our family and takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.", now my understanding as a Man has always been that that is my primary responsibility as a husband. I think lots of men get that, we are taught that. Work hard for your family, provide for them, give them a good life. However there seems to be a disconnect here. So many men feel like this is the way they show love and are surprised when their wives end up feeling unloved. So would you say that your husband and you are lucky in a sense that you feel loved by him doing these things? Would you say that this just happens to be your "love language?" Were you taught that this is the way a man shows his love for his family? Or does Dug do this in a way that makes it easy to see he is doing it out of love? I think a lot of men struggle with this disconnect.


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## jld

sokillme said:


> On that note, you say he "He provides for our family and takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.", now my understanding as a Man has always been that that is my primary responsibility as a husband. I think lots of men get that, we are taught that. Work hard for your family, provide for them, give them a good life. However there seems to be a disconnect here. So many men feel like this is the way they show love and are surprised when their wives end up feeling unloved. So would you say that your husband and you are lucky in a sense that you feel loved by him doing these things? Would you say that this just happens to be your "love language?" Were you taught that this is the way a man shows his love for his family? Or does Dug do this in a way that makes it easy to see he is doing it out of love? I think a lot of men struggle with this disconnect.


Well, maybe other women are more interested in home and yard and auto maintenance than I am, but I really appreciate that he takes care of those things. And I really did not like teaching, so I really appreciate that he thinks it is perfectly normal that he supports our family, too.

Where I think my husband goes the extra mile is that he thinks my emotional needs are just fine, too, even if he doesn't always meet them as well as I would like. He never tells me I'm wrong to feel how I feel or that I have unreasonable expectations. 

I really appreciate that strength and empathy. It makes me respect him.


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## MrsAldi

sokillme said:


> I think this would be a good thing for all husbands to read.


Not all husbands are willing to read. 
Mine enjoys artistic demonstrations...













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## Dazedconfuzed

Horizon said:


> We didn't talk about needs directly but clearly she only needed me to meet 3 of them; as in 3 of them were important - Financial support, domestic support and family commitment.


Sounds exactly like my wife.

But one big factor is that I know she has little-to-no attraction for me (mostly, I would guess, because I am not really knocking it out of the park for her on any of those three needs). 

I think it's hard for women to think about wanting their partner to meet more 'intimate' needs when they unattracted to and maybe even contemptuous of that partner.

I think there is a lot that needs to be in place before the question of 'what needs can I meet?' can be relevant. If a woman finds you unattractive, trying to meet her intimate needs will make her uncomfortable at best.


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## Jessica38

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Sounds exactly like my wife.
> 
> 
> 
> But one big factor is that I know she has little-to-no attraction for me (mostly, I would guess, because I am not really knocking it out of the park for her on any of those three needs).
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard for women to think about wanting their partner to meet more 'intimate' needs when they unattracted to and maybe even contemptuous of that partner.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a lot that needs to be in place before the question of 'what needs can I meet?' can be relevant. If a woman finds you unattractive, trying to meet her intimate needs will make her uncomfortable at best.



I've read that women who aren't in love with their husbands have no desire for their husbands to meet their emotional needs- and even get angry if they try to. I believe that can be turned around though, based on evidence in His Needs, Her Needs.


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## farsidejunky

In my experience, not only do they get angry, but it erodes respect, both from the woman, as well as the self respect of the man.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> In my experience, not only do they get angry, but it erodes respect, both from the woman, as well as the self respect of the man.


Any particular experience you have had with this, far?


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## Jessica38

farsidejunky said:


> In my experience, not only do they get angry, but it erodes respect, both from the woman, as well as the self respect of the man.




I agree that pressuring her and acting overly needy can be off-putting and erode respect, but the book I mentioned suggested reaching out to her (or him) by working to pay attention to meet her needs in the way she needs, without pressuring her. 

For example, a wife whose husband has eroded love in the marriage by having angry outbursts and the wife has lost all love for him and no longer wants to be near him or have sex with him or go on dates with him. 

The husband can regain his wife's love by never having another angry outburst and engaging with the kids and home while demonstrating this, and staying very patient as she pushes him away until she trusts and feels safe with him again.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Any particular experience you have had with this, far?


Yes. 

In late 2013-early 2014, when F2 and I were a mess, she had zero interest in me meeting her needs. I was pretty selfless in that for about 8 months. The first two, she lashed out at me every time I tried to do things for her. 

It was difficult for my own self respect to continue to meet the needs of someone who treated me so poorly.

She also knew she was not meeting my needs. She has said to me that, in retrospect, she struggled to respect someone who was willing to do that, even if it was a necessary part of the process to rekindle our marriage.


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## Dazedconfuzed

farsidejunky said:


> In my experience, not only do they get angry, but it erodes respect, both from the woman, as well as the self respect of the man.


Which is why my wife loses respect for me when I keep looking for answers and reading books (or, worse, try to get her to read books, lol) on how to improve my marriage. She doesn't want a better marriage with an unattractive man. She wants a better marriage with an attractive man.

That's why, for me, I've got to figure out how I can become an attractive man again. If I am an attractive man (in general, not just to her) and she still isn't interested in improving the marriage, I know that I've done all I can. And, since I might actually be attractive again, I won't need to pressure her to allow me to meet her needs or for her to meet my needs. If she's not down for that, I will know that I've done everything I can on my end and can leave the marriage with integrity.


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## Rowan

Vega said:


> Ele, I'm confused about 2 points:
> 
> 1. Without Honesty and Openness at the top of the list, it seems that the rest of the list doesn't really matter. I mean, if my partner isn't honest with me in conversation, then even if he's meeting the frequency of *my* desired amount of conversation, it wouldn't matter. I wouldn't want him to talk to me unless he's going to be honest.
> 
> 2. There seems to be other deeper 'needs' (possibly one common need) that drive the others. Do you notice that too?



Each person will assign their own priority to each of Dr. Harley's listed needs. You seem to have a high need for Honesty and Openness. Another person may find that their need for it is of lower priority, while another of the needs takes precedence. And often, how the needs are prioritized will be reflective of what that individual hasn't been getting. After my now ex-husband's EA, I had a *very* high need for Openness and Honesty, particularly during our attempt at reconciliation. With my SO, while I still need Openness and Honesty from him, that need is being met, so it tends to be a less urgent need. It has a lower relative priority for me at this point and in this relationship. 


Personally, my list of Dr. Harley's needs runs in this order - in this relationship and at this point in my life: 

Affection
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Sexual Fulfillment
Admiration
Physical Attractiveness
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Financial Support

I don't really need financial support, domestic support, or family commitment from my partner - at least not at this time. Admiration is sincerely appreciated, but it doesn't spell "love" to me. I do find my partner attractive, so physical attractiveness isn't a super high-priority for me. Sex is absolutely a part of a healthy relationship for me, but I'm not exceptionally high drive, so it's a mid-range need for me personally. The big ones for me, things that make me feel in love with my partner, are Affection, Conversation, Recreational Companionship, and honesty. That is, a man who talks to me, shares his life/emotions/thoughts in an honest way, and is physically (non-sexually) affectionate while we do things together that we both find fun, is a man who's going to trip my trigger. 

Dr. Harley's list is longer and a bit more exacting, but doesn't really differ all that much in the fundamentals from Chapman's Five Love Languages. I'm a Quality Time (conversation and recreational companionship) and Physical Touch (affection more than sex, though that's important to me as well) person. Acts of Service, Gifts, and Words of Affirmation are appreciated, but don't do much to make me feel really loved.


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## farsidejunky

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Which is why my wife loses respect for me when I keep looking for answers and reading books (or, worse, try to get her to read books, lol) on how to improve my marriage. She doesn't want a better marriage with an unattractive man. She wants a better marriage with an attractive man.
> 
> That's why, for me, I've got to figure out how I can become an attractive man again. If I am an attractive man (in general, not just to her) and she still isn't interested in improving the marriage, I know that I've done all I can. And, since I might actually be attractive again, I won't need to pressure her to allow me to meet her needs or for her to meet my needs. If she's not down for that, I will know that I've done everything I can on my end and can leave the marriage with integrity.


This is half right. Yes, work on becoming an attractive man. Yes, work on being a better man.

However, do so for YOU, not for her. Make yourself into the man you want to be; the one who can respect the man in the mirror. If after that, your wife still is not attracted to you, then it is her loss and time to move on.

Never, ever change your principles for someone else. It never lasts, and when you revert, you will no longer be compatible.

Dazed, get the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s. It will all make sense.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Yes.
> 
> In late 2013-early 2014, when F2 and I were a mess, she had zero interest in me meeting her needs. I was pretty selfless in that for about 8 months. The first two, she lashed out at me every time I tried to do things for her.
> 
> It was difficult for my own self respect to continue to meet the needs of someone who treated me so poorly.
> 
> She also knew she was not meeting my needs. *She has said to me that, in retrospect, she struggled to respect someone who was willing to do that*, even if it was a necessary part of the process to rekindle our marriage.


That is so interesting to me. That is just completely opposite of how I think. 

To me, Dug's willingness to be kind and patient with me even when I am angry at him just speaks so much strength, so much character.

Far, this is a hard question, but I would like to ask it. Do you think your wife has an underlying lack of respect for you?


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## *Deidre*

Compliments 
Listens and values my opinion
Grateful spirit
Leads with confidence (makes me feel loved and secure)


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## jb02157

sokillme said:


> On that note, you say he "He provides for our family and takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.", now my understanding as a Man has always been that that is my primary responsibility as a husband. I think lots of men get that, we are taught that. Work hard for your family, provide for them, give them a good life. However there seems to be a disconnect here. So many men feel like this is the way they show love and are surprised when their wives end up feeling unloved. So would you say that your husband and you are lucky in a sense that you feel loved by him doing these things? Would you say that this just happens to be your "love language?" Were you taught that this is the way a man shows his love for his family? Or does Dug do this in a way that makes it easy to see he is doing it out of love? I think a lot of men struggle with this disconnect.


I really don't see it as a disconnect. The traditional role for men is that they have to work hard, provide and give their family a good life (as you say). I would think that is really way more than a husband should be responsible for. Then, when you have your wife come to you and tell you she's unloved...it takes the husband aback...he thinks doesn't all I've been doing show my love?? I don't do it because I feel like it, I do it for you and the family out of love. How can you say then you are unloved. If you were unloved I wouldn't give a **** and wouldn't do anything for you. I would see to it that we lived in a shack and had nothing to eat. Perhaps the disconnect is for women to see that's the way men have been trained to show their love for their wives and family. I see this with alot of women on here, mainly SAHM's.


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## Dazedconfuzed

farsidejunky said:


> This is half right. Yes, work on becoming an attractive man. Yes, work on being a better man.
> 
> However, do so for YOU, not for her. Make yourself into the man you want to be; the one who can respect the man in the mirror. If after that, your wife still is not attracted to you, then it is her loss and time to move on.
> 
> Never, ever change your principles for someone else. It never lasts, and when you revert, you will no longer be compatible.
> 
> Dazed, get the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s. It will all make sense.


I couldn't agree with this more.

I know all too well that trying to make yourself attractive for some other person is humiliating for both parties involved. Trying to convince another of your own attractiveness is about as unattractive as it gets.

If I can look at myself in the mirror and feel confident that the person looking back is as attractive as he can be, whatever relationship concerns I have will naturally work themselves out. I won't even have to pay all that much attention to 'my needs' and whether they are being met or not, since *someone* is likely to see 'my needs' as an opportunity rather than a problem. And if they don't, I will, again, have my own integrity to go on.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> That is so interesting to me. That is just completely opposite of how I think.
> 
> To me, Dug's willingness to be kind and patient with me even when I am angry at him just speaks so much strength, so much character.
> 
> Far, this is a hard question, but I would like to ask it. Do you think your wife has an underlying lack of respect for you?


She certainly did. I do not believe she does now.

And this may sound insensitive, but if she still does, after all that I have done and continue to do for her, for my son, for my community and country, for how much she relies on me to sustain the business which is her livelihood, for building her confidence in areas in which she had none, for helping her through her day-to-day life...it truly is her loss, not mine. 

This is the message Dazed needs more than anything, even though I have extricated myself from his thread. 

Be the man that you want to be. Those who belong in your life will still be there; those that do not will drift away.


----------



## Jessica38

jb02157 said:


> I really don't see it as a disconnect. The traditional role for men is that they have to work hard, provide and give their family a good life (as you say). I would think that is really way more than a husband should be responsible for. Then, when you have your wife come to you and tell you she's unloved...it takes the husband aback...he thinks doesn't all I've been doing show my love?? I don't do it because I feel like it, I do it for you and the family out of love. How can you say then you are unloved. If you were unloved I wouldn't give a **** and wouldn't do anything for you. I would see to it that we lived in a shack and had nothing to eat. Perhaps the disconnect is for women to see that's the way men have been trained to show their love for their wives and family. I see this with alot of women on here, mainly SAHM's.



My husband has a high need for domestic support, since he works full-time and (rightfully) doesn't want to come home to a messy house and spend his weekends grocery shopping, doing laundry, and cleaning/running errands.

Does this mean that if I'm not meeting his need for sex I should list for him all the other things I've done for him that week to show my love? After all, it's not like I clean his shirts and scrub his toilet and hit Costco because I feel like it. I do it because I want him to eat well and wear clean clothes because I love him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

jb02157 said:


> I really don't see it as a disconnect. The traditional role for men is that they have to work hard, provide and give their family a good life (as you say). I would think that is really way more than a husband should be responsible for. Then, when you have your wife come to you and tell you she's unloved...it takes the husband aback...he thinks doesn't all I've been doing show my love?? I don't do it because I feel like it, I do it for you and the family out of love. How can you say then you are unloved. If you were unloved I wouldn't give a **** and wouldn't do anything for you. I would see to it that we lived in a shack and had nothing to eat. Perhaps the disconnect is for women to see that's the way men have been trained to show their love for their wives and family. I see this with alot of women on here, mainly SAHM's.


I am saying the disconnect is the husband has been thinking all this time he is showing his love and his wife tells him she doesn't feel loved. How many times do you read on here where the husband is blindsided and basically says as much. My first though why I think this happens is because so many women grow up in a broken family without and active father in their lives. They have no understanding to how this is a core part of what a good man believes about himself and how he lives his life. How he shows love. Most of these women have gotten their idea of what a strong man is from media. 

I suspect in a society where women can basally completely take care of herself this has led to some issues. Hell I get it, I am a man, it's in our nature to want to provide. I do think in a modern world where women don't need a provider at least not in the way they did say up until 50 years ago, working hard for the family just doesn't have the same value sadly. Unfortunately I am not sure how we raise our son's has caught up. Men now also have to be an emotional provider to a certain level for lots of women. But very few men have been raised to do that. And also as importantly women have to be taught that this is how a man shows love to his family. He is NOT meant to provide the kind of emotional awareness that say a girlfriend will in some areas. It's really not in his nature. That doesn't mean he doesn't love you and isn't a good husband. I think I am a pretty emotionally intelligent person, (some here may disagree) but even I have my limits. Some times I need to go pound stuff. And virtually hunt by shooting things on screen. There is a point where I grow weary of talking about the office politics at my wife's office and I would like her to just box the ears of everyone. I don't say that, but I think she can tell. One thing is for sure, I would never do the SAHM thing, not today. This just is not a good dynamic. Ideal hands. This is a struggle for both sexes.


----------



## sokillme

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I think it's hard for women to think about wanting their partner to meet more 'intimate' needs when they unattracted to and maybe even contemptuous of that partner.
> 
> I think there is a lot that needs to be in place before the question of 'what needs can I meet?' can be relevant. If a woman finds you unattractive, trying to meet her intimate needs will make her uncomfortable at best.


Women on this thread is this true?


----------



## sokillme

Jessica38 said:


> I agree that pressuring her and acting overly needy can be off-putting and erode respect, but the book I mentioned suggested reaching out to her (or him) by working to pay attention to meet her needs in the way she needs, without pressuring her.
> 
> For example, a wife whose husband has eroded love in the marriage by having angry outbursts and the wife has lost all love for him and no longer wants to be near him or have sex with him or go on dates with him.
> 
> The husband can regain his wife's love by never having another angry outburst and engaging with the kids and home while demonstrating this, and staying very patient as she pushes him away until she trusts and feels safe with him again.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


In this case i would think the most effective thing to do would to acknowledge that he has done that in the past and show he is taking steps to never to it again. Meaning work very hard at that.


----------



## jld

sokillme said:


> Women is this true?


If I felt unattracted to and contemptuous of my husband, we would not even be married. And we certainly would not be having sex. 

So yes, I think it is true.


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## jld

sokillme said:


> In this case i would think the most effective thing to do would to acknowledge that he has done that in the past and show he is taking steps to never to it again. Meaning work very hard at that.


And not be defensive if she brings it up.


----------



## sokillme

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Which is why my wife loses respect for me when I keep looking for answers and reading books (or, worse, try to get her to read books, lol) on how to improve my marriage. She doesn't want a better marriage with an unattractive man. She wants a better marriage with an attractive man.
> 
> That's why, for me, I've got to figure out how I can become an attractive man again. If I am an attractive man (in general, not just to her) and she still isn't interested in improving the marriage, I know that I've done all I can. And, since I might actually be attractive again, I won't need to pressure her to allow me to meet her needs or for her to meet my needs. If she's not down for that, I will know that I've done everything I can on my end and can leave the marriage with integrity.


Detach and become an attractive man to others, you will become attractive to her. (I am not saying cheat). Maybe your issue is you are too dependent on your wife for validation. It comes across as needy. That is not attractive to anyone but especially women. In my experience women want leaders, assertive men. They want you to be the hero of your story. Also start working out. Just doing that will build up your testosterone. That will also cause you to be more attractive, you also fit your clothes better. Just my two cents.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> That is so interesting to me. That is just completely opposite of how I think.
> 
> To me, Dug's willingness to be kind and patient with me even when I am angry at him just speaks so much strength, so much character.
> 
> Far, this is a hard question, but I would like to ask it. Do you think your wife has an underlying lack of respect for you?


And this speaks to the fact that in a marriage this stuff must be talked about often. That seems like basic marriage 101. Saying "You doing this makes me fell this". But I see from reading on these boards that that is a rare discussion in most marriages. And when it is mostly discussed is after someone does something that hurts the other person. It is very rare when someone says. "You know when you came home and told me about your day, but not just telling me but telling me how you felt about your day, that really made me feel close to you."


----------



## sokillme

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I couldn't agree with this more.
> 
> I know all too well that trying to make yourself attractive for some other person is humiliating for both parties involved. Trying to convince another of your own attractiveness is about as unattractive as it gets.
> 
> If I can look at myself in the mirror and feel confident that the person looking back is as attractive as he can be, whatever relationship concerns I have will naturally work themselves out. I won't even have to pay all that much attention to 'my needs' and whether they are being met or not, since *someone* is likely to see 'my needs' as an opportunity rather than a problem. And if they don't, I will, again, have my own integrity to go on.


I see this a part of being a healthy person in the marriage in general, and not just as far as your attraction level. I always feel about my wife as I am in the marriage to give to her, not for anything she gives to me. That part is a bonus. Maybe that is why it is so easy for me to advocate leaving when you are mistreated. There is lies the danger in deriving your self-worth from what others think or feel about you. At least in a core kind of way. The less you are dependent on that the more you are able to operate out of a position of strength. It is easier to make honest decisions.


----------



## jb02157

Jessica38 said:


> My husband has a high need for domestic support, since he works full-time and (rightfully) doesn't want to come home to a messy house and spend his weekends grocery shopping, doing laundry, and cleaning/running errands.
> 
> Does this mean that if I'm not meeting his need for sex I should list for him all the other things I've done for him that week to show my love? After all, it's not like I clean his shirts and scrub his toilet and hit Costco because I feel like it. I do it because I want him to eat well and wear clean clothes because I love him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I also have a need as does the rest of the family for domestic support we expect from my wife but we don't get it. We expect her to do this out of love for the family... is this wrong? She also shut down sex years ago, so she doesn't display her love in that way either. Is one of these ways of showing your love more important than the other? Maybe, for some. She does work but doesn't share her earnings with the rest of the family like I do. She doesn't show her love to us in this way either. 

What's the take home message here, that she doesn't love us and cares only for herself?


----------



## sokillme

Jessica38 said:


> My husband has a high need for domestic support, since he works full-time and (rightfully) doesn't want to come home to a messy house and spend his weekends grocery shopping, doing laundry, and cleaning/running errands.
> 
> Does this mean that if I'm not meeting his need for sex I should list for him all the other things I've done for him that week to show my love? After all, it's not like I clean his shirts and scrub his toilet and hit Costco because I feel like it. I do it because I want him to eat well and wear clean clothes because I love him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


But that was not the premise I set up. To match the premise he would have to come home and say, "I don't feel loved because you don't have sex with me. so I am leaving you." 

In a sense your premise is exactly the same as the original. You just changed genders. This is the very point. The men like you feel like their work for their wives, in more of a practical kind of action, is demonstrating a love to her. The wives in this example however are looking for an emotional action. Substitute sex (which is very much a big part of how us men experience love and bonding) for talking, or romance, or personalized gifts.)


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## Dazedconfuzed

sokillme said:


> They want you to be the hero of your story.


I think this is one of the most critical components of every relationship.

My wife would bend over backwards (or forwards, lol) for me those times that I was 'a hero' in her eyes. As would most women I know.

I haven't been a hero (hers or anyone else's) in a long time.

It's funny - a friend of mine hit the nail on the head regarding my experience when my life started really falling apart several years back. She said, "For so long, you've been the 'hero' for everyone. Everyone looked to you. What do you do, though, when the hero feels like he needs a hero?"

Of course, I know by now that there is no hero out there who is suddenly going to be a hero for me. I've got to be my own hero. How to actually accomplish that has been a tough challenge, but nothing is going to change until I become a hero again.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> If I felt unattracted to and contemptuous of my husband, we would not even be married. And we certainly would not be having sex.
> 
> So yes, I think it is true.


What if he put on a very large amount of weight?


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## Jessica38

jb02157 said:


> I also have a need as does the rest of the family for domestic support we expect from my wife but we don't get it. We expect her to do this out of love for the family... is this wrong? She also shut down sex years ago, so she doesn't display her love in that way either. Is one of these ways of showing your love more important than the other? Maybe, for some. She does work but doesn't share her earnings with the rest of the family like I do. She doesn't show her love to us in this way either.
> 
> 
> 
> What's the take home message here, that she doesn't love us and cares only for herself?




Goodness, she sounds like a very difficult person to be married to. My take home message reading this is that basically, yes, she does not know how to be married and is committing Lovebusters with her extreme independent behavior. And she sounds narcissistic. 

There is nothing wrong with expecting to have your needs met in marriage. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jld

sokillme said:


> What if he put on a very large amount of weight?


Hard to imagine that, as Dug has always been fairly trim.

Maybe through illness, though? Some sort of illness that would result in weight gain?

I am not sure how it would affect me. If he were meeting my emotional needs, maybe not at all.


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## Jessica38

sokillme said:


> But that was not the premise I set up. To match the premise he would have to come home and say, "I don't feel loved because you don't have sex with me. so I am leaving you."
> 
> In a sense your premise is exactly the same as the original. You just changed genders. This is the very point. The men like you feel like their work for their wives, in more of a practical kind of action, is demonstrating a love to her. The wives in this example however are looking for an emotional action. Substitute sex (which is very much a big part of how us men experience love and bonding) for talking, or romance, or personalized gifts.)



I thought the premise was that men are surprised when their wives tell them they are unhappy in the marriage despite the men providing for them and showing their love that way.

My point is that neglect is still a major reason why many women are unhappy in marriage, despite their husbands working hard to provide for the family (even when the wives work too).

I just think the bar in marriage needs to be higher than "as long as you provide for me and don't cheat on me, we're all good." 

That simply isn't enough for most women. And I think that's totally reasonable, as most men would agree that there are more needs to meet in marriage than fidelity and financial or domestic support (or a combo of both).

And if I never had sex with my husband, I would worry that he'd want to leave me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

jld said:


> Hard to imagine that, as Dug has always been fairly trim.
> 
> Maybe through illness, though? Some sort of illness that would result in weight gain?
> 
> I am not sure how it would affect me. If he were meeting my emotional needs, maybe not at all.


Do you feel you have any responsibility to him though? What if something happened to put him in a deep depression, and he gained weight because of it? What do you feel is your responsibility to him?


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## Jessica38

sokillme said:


> In this case i would think the most effective thing to do would to acknowledge that he has done that in the past and show he is taking steps to never to it again. Meaning work very hard at that.



Agreed. And I think this applies in other situations in marriage as well (neglect, disrespect, independent behavior).


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jb02157

Jessica38 said:


> Goodness, she sounds like a very difficult person to be married to. My take home message reading this is that basically, yes, she does not know how to be married and is committing Lovebusters with her extreme independent behavior. And she sounds narcissistic.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with expecting to have your needs met in marriage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Don't I know it...I've all but given up hope at times. I think some of it came from her parents, she came from a very dysfunctional family. Before I came onto this site, I thought that all women got like this. I'm glad I know otherwise now. Once the kids finish up their degrees in a few years, were going to have a serious talk about this.


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## sokillme

Jessica38 said:


> I thought the premise was that men are surprised when their wives tell them they are unhappy in the marriage despite the men providing for them and showing their love that way.
> 
> My point is that neglect is still a major reason why many women are unhappy in marriage, despite their husbands working hard to provide for the family (even when the wives work too).
> 
> I just think the bar in marriage needs to be higher than "as long as you provide for me and don't cheat on me, we're all good."
> 
> That simply isn't enough for most women. And I think that's totally reasonable, as most men would agree that there are more needs to meet in marriage than fidelity and financial or domestic support (or a combo of both).
> 
> And if I never had sex with my husband, I would worry that he'd want to leave me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I completely agree. I just think there are some men who don't know what are, or worse who don't know how to provide for their wives emotional needs. This is why I asked the question. I think I know what they are but do I really?


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## Jessica38

jb02157 said:


> Don't I know it...I've all but given up hope at times. I think some of it came from her parents, she came from a very dysfunctional family. Before I came onto this site, I thought that all women got like this. I'm glad I know otherwise now. Once the kids finish up their degrees in a few years, were going to have a serious talk about this.



Good. She's really hurting herself in this marriage. She's going to be facing the very difficult reality of not only an empty nest but a husband with one foot out the door. I hope for her sake, she listens to you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Jessica38

sokillme said:


> I completely agree. I just think there are some men who don't know what are, or worse who don't know how to provide for their wives emotional needs. This is why I asked the question. I think I know what they are but do I really?




I think you do, and I think it's great that you asked the question. It shows you care.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## jld

sokillme said:


> Do you feel you have any responsibility to him though? What if something happened to put him in a deep depression, and he gained weight because of it? What do you feel is your responsibility to him?


It is so hard to imagine that. Dug is very hardy.

But when our son was diagnosed with cancer, Dug cried for two days. I could not help him; I was too deep in my own grief.

I did ask that the hospital social worker stop by and speak to him. After a half an hour with her, and finding out there was hope for our son, Dug was his old self again.


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## sokillme

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I think this is one of the most critical components of every relationship.
> 
> My wife would bend over backwards (or forwards, lol) for me those times that I was 'a hero' in her eyes. As would most women I know.
> 
> I haven't been a hero (hers or anyone else's) in a long time.
> 
> It's funny - a friend of mine hit the nail on the head regarding my experience when my life started really falling apart several years back. She said, "For so long, you've been the 'hero' for everyone. Everyone looked to you. What do you do, though, when the hero feels like he needs a hero?"
> 
> Of course, I know by now that there is no hero out there who is suddenly going to be a hero for me. I've got to be my own hero. How to actually accomplish that has been a tough challenge, but nothing is going to change until I become a hero again.


I purposely said hero in your OWN life though, not hers. Hero's don't set out to become hero's in other peoples eyes at least true ones. That's the thing isn't it. To live a happy productive and stable life we should all be striving. I don't think that should have anything to do with what that does for others. I think that is where you may be missing the mark. You are trying to be a hero to her instead of just trying to be a better you. I suspect if you take your eyes off of her opinion of you and using that as a gauge things will start to change. 

Sounds like you have had a hard time for a while, why not address fighting out of that whatever that is. I suspect back when your were being that hero her opinion of that was a bonus not the motivation. 

You sound like you were her KISA. This is the risk in the KISA type of relationship though, and why it is usually not healthy. The princess is usually rich entitled royalty and a spoiled brat. The KISA dynamic never ends too, and if you stop rescuing them they lose interest because rescuing is what they think love is. Sometimes you need to tell the princes to get off her damn ass and help herself. I now see the whole KISA thing as an exercise in codependency by both parties. 

I think a much healthier dynamic is to think of your spouse as a partner. It leads to negotiation not entitlement. Both parties then have a level of ownership and strength to negotiate with.


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## sokillme

jb02157 said:


> Don't I know it...I've all but given up hope at times. I think some of it came from her parents, she came from a very dysfunctional family. Before I came onto this site, I thought that all women got like this. I'm glad I know otherwise now. Once the kids finish up their degrees in a few years, were going to have a serious talk about this.


Why wait that doesn't seem very assertive. In fact what do you tell her by waiting and letting things stay the way they are. You are saying treat me how you want, I have no demands or requirements. I am convinced for women especially this is probably the biggest turn off you could possibly give them.


----------



## crocus

jb02157 said:


> I really don't see it as a disconnect. The traditional role for men is that they have to work hard, provide and give their family a good life (as you say). I would think that is really way more than a husband should be responsible for. Then, when you have your wife come to you and tell you she's unloved...it takes the husband aback...he thinks doesn't all I've been doing show my love?? I don't do it because I feel like it, I do it for you and the family out of love. How can you say then you are unloved. If you were unloved I wouldn't give a **** and wouldn't do anything for you. I would see to it that we lived in a shack and had nothing to eat. Perhaps the disconnect is for women to see that's the way men have been trained to show their love for their wives and family. I see this with alot of women on here, mainly SAHM's.




I can see your point, women could understand that better. But but but
That's what my dad did for me. When I was a little girl. Because he loved me.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heartsbeating

sokillme said:


> This sounds a lot like my wife and my relationship. I know this is not the case but this just seems like what you do when you love the person. I hope someone answers who doesn't have this so I get get a feel for what that is like. Not that I am hopping for them to have a bad marriage. I think it is important that we talk about these things as married people, to other married people. So many times you read when marriage go bad that there was a disconnect. It's kind of sad. I think people really don't know what it takes to have a good marriage assuming you are married to a person who has morals and character. I suspect that in today's society so many of us come from parents of divorce so it has never been modeled for us.


I think hearing of healthy relationships is as important. Sure, it could be a given that that's what occurs when there's love ...in meeting needs there's knowing what the needs are / meeting those needs, as well as appreciating the way your spouse demonstrates love in the best way they're able (considering typical people and dynamics). 

Eyes open gratitude, brings a lot to a marriage. It may even be a starting point when reset button is hit.


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

sokillme said:


> I purposely said hero in your OWN life though, not hers. Hero's don't set out to become hero's in other peoples eyes at least true ones.


I definitely agree.

When I was my wife's (and everyone else's) 'hero', I was just living my life and doing it successfully. Promotion at work? 'Hero!' Completing a big house project? 'Hero!' Sharing what I know such that it helps someone else? 'Hero!' Putting together an exciting adventure? 'Hero!' Being there for someone who needed me? 'Hero!' Being a leader in my community? 'Hero!'



> To live a happy productive and stable life we should all be striving.


I agree. There are times, though, when the striving creates results, and times when results don't seem to happen regardless of the striving. And ultimately, it's the results that you create that count, not how hard you were striving in the process.



> You are trying to be a hero to her instead of just trying to be a better you. I suspect if you take your eyes off of her opinion of you and using that as a gauge things will start to change.


I think one of my problems is that I want to be a good husband and a good father, and given that both of those roles involve other people, it's hard to just ignore their opinions (or the opinions of others) in assessing whether I'm achieving those goals. 

I might think I'm a good husband and a good father, but if no one else agrees with me, am I really? How do I know the difference? 



> I suspect back when your were being that hero her opinion of that was a bonus not the motivation.


Certainly. But it was also a positive feedback loop. I would do great things, and I would immediately have love and desire heaped on me, which certainly helped keep me motivated to do great things. 



> You sound like you were her KISA. This is the risk in the KISA type of relationship though, and why it is usually not healthy. The princess is usually rich entitled royalty and a spoiled brat. The KISA dynamic never ends too, and if you stop rescuing them they lose interest because rescuing is what they think love is. Sometimes you need to tell the princes to get off her damn ass and help herself. I now see the whole KISA thing as an exercise in codependency by both parties.


I totally understand the KISA dynamic, and understand it's pitfalls. Learned helplessness being on of the big ones.

On the other hand, women want to be with a man they can respect and possibly even look up to. I've come to see that 'respect' and 'sexual attraction' are almost one and the same for many women. That's why many (including myself) see power as the ultimate aphrodisiac. If you look at what women say they want in a partner, attributes like 'drive' and 'ambition' and 'assertiveness' and 'dominance' and 'resourcefulness' and the like come up a lot. The PUAs (IIRC) assert that women are sexually attracted to men with the trifecta of Looks/Money/Status, and that certainly seems to play out in real life.

Additionally, most women I've talked to (including my wife) want to feel 'taken care of' by their man. So I haven't yet figured out where being a strong, powerful man who takes care of his wife crosses the line into being a KISA.

Men have always borne the 'burden of performance' in relationships. They are expected to *do* things to *earn* the respect and love of a woman. It starts with men wooing and romancing women at the beginning, and continues throughout the marriage, with the man being seen as valuable through his ability to 'protect and provide' for his family. You can argue that modern society makes a man's ability to 'protect and provide' less important, but women seem to still put a lot of value on his performance.


----------



## jld

_"I've come to see that 'respect' and 'sexual attraction' are almost one and the same for many women."_

Totally agree, Dazed. Definitely true for me, anyway.


----------



## EleGirl

@Vega



Vega said:


> Ele, I'm confused about 2 points:
> 
> 1. Without Honesty and Openness at the top of the list, it seems that the rest of the list doesn't really matter. I mean, if my partner isn't honest with me in conversation, then even if he's meeting the frequency of *my* desired amount of conversation, it wouldn't matter. I wouldn't want him to talk to me unless he's going to be honest.


In Marriage Builders, Honesty is not an individual need, it's part of the very foundation of a marriage. It cannot be negotiated and MUST exist. So these have to exist, or the marriage will not survive.

Here is a link to the MB discussion of “Radical Honesty”: *The Policy of Radical Honesty
*

The reason that “Honesty and Openness” is that some people have specific needs related to these things. For example, if there has been infidelity in a marriage, the BS will most likely have a much higher need for honesty/openness than someone who has not been cheated on. A BS might need their spouse to have joint email, facebook, etc. They might need to have the passwords to all online accounts. This is for extraordinary measures that are put in place because the BS has a much higher need for Honesty/Openness or they will not stay in the marriage.



Vega said:


> 2. There seems to be other deeper 'needs' (possibly one common need) that drive the others. Do you notice that too?


Besides your comments on Honesty and Openness, what other needs are you talking about? Could you list them?


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## EleGirl

jld said:


> He listens to me, he's gentle and kind to me, he nurtures me. He would say he tries to be patient with me.
> 
> He provides for our family and takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.
> 
> And Dug never says things like, "That's your job." He understands that if something is bothering me, he is very likely going to be involved.


 @jld

I mapped your needs based on the above quote and other things I think I know from your and Dug's posts here on TAM to the MB need list. Let me know how I did. {I'm not doing all the needs, so don't read anything into the ones that did not map. I also did not put them in order of importance.


*Financial Support*


jld said:


> He provides for our family


*Domestic Support*


jld said:


> takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.


*Family Commitment*
You have talked about how he is good with your children, helps with them. Actually if I recall, he does a lot of things with your children.

*Affection*


jld said:


> He listens to me, he's gentle and kind to me, he nurtures me. He would say he tries to be patient with me.


And Dug never says things like, "That's your job." He understands that if something is bothering me, he is very likely going to be involved.[/QUOTE]

*Sexual Fulfillment*
You guys have a good sex life.

*Conversation*
You two talk to each other quite a bit it seems.

*Honesty and Openness*
I see a lot of this between the two of you

*Admiration*
You definitely admire him. From all he’s said on TAM, I think he admires you too.

Did not address these.. but from what you have said these are in your marriage in a positive way too.

Recreational Companionship
Physical Attractiveness


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> On that note, you say he "He provides for our family and takes care of all the things around here that I cannot or would be hard for me.", now my understanding as a Man has always been that that is my primary responsibility as a husband. I think lots of men get that, we are taught that. Work hard for your family, provide for them, give them a good life. However there seems to be a disconnect here. So many men feel like this is the way they show love and are surprised when their wives end up feeling unloved. So would you say that your husband and you are lucky in a sense that you feel loved by him doing these things? Would you say that this just happens to be your "love language?" Were you taught that this is the way a man shows his love for his family? Or does Dug do this in a way that makes it easy to see he is doing it out of love? I think a lot of men struggle with this disconnect.


The bolded & underlined text seems to fit into two of the MB emotional needs: Financial Support & Domestic Support. If those are the only things that a man does, and in some marriages. like the ones you describe here, they probably are the only things these guys are doing, the guy is not meeting some of his wife’s important needs.

There is often no affection (sex is not affection), no conversation, and no recreational companionship. I can easily see why a man or woman would be profoundly unhappy in a marriage where these needs are not met.

A lot of the threads started on TAM by women who are unhappy in their marriage state exactly this, their husband works hard and does things that fall under “domestic support”. However, they husband has no interest in spending time with the woman, no interest in having conversations and Recreational Companionship

We also see a lot of threads from men who provide financially and provide domestic support. But when asked how much quality time they spend with their wife, their answer is usually none, for years, because there is not time to do that.

•	Affection
•	Sexual Fulfillment
•	Conversation
•	Recreational Companionship
•	Honesty and Openness
•	Physical Attractiveness
•	Financial Support
•	Domestic Support
•	Family Commitment
•	Admiration​


----------



## jb02157

sokillme said:


> Why wait that doesn't seem very assertive. In fact what do you tell her by waiting and letting things stay the way they are. You are saying treat me how you want, I have no demands or requirements. I am convinced for women especially this is probably the biggest turn off you could possibly give them.


The only reason I mention waiting until after the kids get out of college is because hopefully by then I can put actions behind my words. If she doesn't knock it off I'll divorce her...but I'm thinking by then I may not even want to give her that option.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> @jld
> 
> I mapped your needs based on the above quote and other things I think I know from your and Dug's posts here on TAM to the MB need list. Let me know how I did. {I'm not doing all the needs, so don't read anything into the ones that did not map. I also did not put them in order of importance.
> 
> 
> *Financial Support*
> 
> 
> *Domestic Support*
> 
> 
> *Family Commitment*
> You have talked about how he is good with your children, helps with them. Actually if I recall, he does a lot of things with your children.
> 
> *Affection*
> 
> 
> And Dug never says things like, "That's your job." He understands that if something is bothering me, he is very likely going to be involved.


*Sexual Fulfillment*
You guys have a good sex life.

*Conversation*
You two talk to each other quite a bit it seems.

*Honesty and Openness*
I see a lot of this between the two of you

*Admiration*
You definitely admire him. From all he’s said on TAM, I think he admires you too.

Did not address these.. but from what you have said these are in your marriage in a positive way too.

Recreational Companionship
Physical Attractiveness[/QUOTE]

Yes, Ele, that looks right. Thank you!


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Dazedconfuzed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it's hard for women to think about wanting their partner to meet more 'intimate' needs when they unattracted to and maybe even contemptuous of that partner.
> 
> I think there is a lot that needs to be in place before the question of 'what needs can I meet?' can be relevant. If a woman finds you unattractive, trying to meet her intimate needs will make her uncomfortable at best.
> 
> 
> 
> Women on this thread is this true?
Click to expand...

Would you want to have sex with a woman you found unattractive?

Would you want sex with a woman who you held in contempt?


----------



## sokillme

jb02157 said:


> The only reason I mention waiting until after the kids get out of college is because hopefully by then I can put actions behind my words. If she doesn't knock it off I'll divorce her...but I'm thinking by then I may not even want to give her that option.


Worst thing is to be blindsided by an affair. Look at the guy on here, just like you thinking of ending it and boom caught her again.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> And this speaks to the fact that in a marriage this stuff must be talked about often. That seems like basic marriage 101. Saying "You doing this makes me fell this". *But I see from reading on these boards that that is a rare discussion in most marriages. * And when it is mostly discussed is after someone does something that hurts the other person. It is very rare when someone says. "You know when you came home and told me about your day, but not just telling me but telling me how you felt about your day, that really made me feel close to you."


I think that you are right that most people don't talk about their needs and how to meet them. Especially not in a constructive way. And very often a spouse would take such talk as an attack or put down so there is no real discussion.

This is most likely due to the fact that we don't have a marriage model that promotes this. The idea of love marriage is a new. In the past people married because that's what you did when you grew up. Love was not part of the deal. Instead it was about obligation. Today we expect love and value it above obligation for the most part.

Marriages based on love are much harder to maintain than ones based on obligation and social pressure. So we need to figure out how to maintain a marriage with some new rules. The new rules are that we have to meet each other's emotional needs, not just meet the obligations of that were required in the past.

People are not raised in a way that teaches them to think of and verbalize their own and their partner's individual need and how to meet those needs. People just flat out don't have the words to do this. Nor do people have the understanding that when their spouse says something like "We need to spend more time together" or "I'm lonely and need more from you." that these are important statements that they must pay attention to.

That's where learning to not love bust and to meet each other's emotional needs become important. This is why people suggest the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" so often.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> The bolded & underlined text seems to fit into two of the MB emotional needs: Financial Support & Domestic Support. If those are the only things that a man does, and in some marriages. like the ones you describe here, they probably are the only things these guys are doing, the guy is not meeting some of his wife’s important needs.
> 
> There is often no affection (sex is not affection), no conversation, and no recreational companionship. I can easily see why a man or woman would be profoundly unhappy in a marriage where these needs are not met.
> 
> A lot of the threads started on TAM by women who are unhappy in their marriage state exactly this, their husband works hard and does things that fall under “domestic support”. However, they husband has no interest in spending time with the woman, no interest in having conversations and Recreational Companionship
> 
> We also see a lot of threads from men who provide financially and provide domestic support. But when asked how much quality time they spend with their wife, their answer is usually none, for years, because there is not time to do that.
> 
> •	Affection
> •	Sexual Fulfillment
> •	Conversation
> •	Recreational Companionship
> •	Honesty and Openness
> •	Physical Attractiveness
> •	Financial Support
> •	Domestic Support
> •	Family Commitment
> •	Admiration​


Yep part of the reason I started the thread. I think some men have been taught that this is what their role is. I think some men are not capable of more then this. I also thing some women are screwed up and have decent husbands and the problem is really in themselves. And before you get mad, I think some men just don't really care and are selfish.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> I see this a part of being a healthy person in the marriage in general, and not just as far as your attraction level. I always feel about my wife as I am in the marriage to give to her, not for anything she gives to me. That part is a bonus. Maybe that is why it is so easy for me to advocate leaving when you are mistreated. There is lies the danger in deriving your self-worth from what others think or feel about you. At least in a core kind of way. The less you are dependent on that the more you are able to operate out of a position of strength. It is easier to make honest decisions.


So you would be ok with it if your wife spent zero time with you, ignored you, did not house work, no child care (or whatever else it is she does).????


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Would you want to have sex with a woman you found unattractive?
> 
> Would you want sex with a woman who you held in contempt?


Me personally no, but I would say 50% of men would not care. If we are just talking about sex.


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

Answering for myself as a man, who doesn't think he is all that different from most other men:



EleGirl said:


> Would you want to have sex with a woman you found unattractive?


I personally wouldn't. I need to find a woman attractive to want to have sex with her.

I do know, however, that many men seem to place 'is willing to have easy sex with me' above 'is attractive.' Or perhaps it's the woman's willingness to give a man the sex he wants that makes her attractive.

I've seen plenty of 'high-quality', attractive, desirable men hook up (only briefly, of course) with women who seem to have very little going for them (not widely seen as attractive, or desirable, or of 'quality'), simply because those women were all over them and made it easy in the moment.



> Would you want sex with a woman who you held in contempt?


I don't know about 'contempt', per se, but I've certainly had sex with women towards whom I've felt little respect, so little that it could be argued that I may have even held them in contempt at times. In fact, I felt like this towards one of the 'hottest' sex partners I've ever had. She was very physically attractive, I very much enjoyed the sex, but I was actually kinda embarrassed to take her out to social functions and the like. It was a mess of a 'relationship', that's for sure (not my proudest achievement in life, for sure).


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Yep part of the reason I started the thread. I think some men have been taught that this is what their role is. I think some men are not capable of more then this. I also thing some women are screwed up and have decent husbands and the problem is really in themselves. And before you get mad, I think some men just don't really care and are selfish.


I agree that some men are not capable of more than financial support and maybe domestic support. They are no good husband material. Of course this raises he question, are not capable of more? Or do not just not care enough to do more and be more?

Yep some women have decent husbands and the woman is the problem.

Some men have decent wives and the man is the problem

There are both men and women who are just selfish and do not care.

But, I think most people who are having marriage difficulties are simply 'clueless' and can fix their marriage with some guidance and education of how to do this.


----------



## EleGirl

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Answering for myself as a man, who doesn't think he is all that different from most other men:
> 
> 
> 
> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you want to have sex with a woman you found unattractive?
> 
> 
> 
> I personally wouldn't. I need to find a woman attractive to want to have sex with her.
> 
> I do know, however, that many men seem to place 'is willing to have easy sex with me' above 'is attractive.' Or perhaps it's the woman's willingness to give a man the sex he wants that makes her attractive.
> 
> I've seen plenty of 'high-quality', attractive, desirable men hook up (only briefly, of course) with women who seem to have very little going for them (not widely seen as attractive, or desirable, or of 'quality'), simply because those women were all over them and made it easy in the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you want sex with a woman who you held in contempt?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't know about 'contempt', per se, but I've certainly had sex with women towards whom I've felt little respect, so little that it could be argued that I may have even held them in contempt at times. In fact, I felt like this towards one of the 'hottest' sex partners I've ever had. She was very physically attractive, I very much enjoyed the sex, but I was actually kinda embarrassed to take her out to social functions and the like. It was a mess of a 'relationship', that's for sure.
Click to expand...

There is a huge difference between things like a ONS and casual sex and sex in a long-term relationship.

If you were married to a woman who you found unattractive and held in contempt, would you still want sex with her? Clearly, sex is not an expression of love as some claim, but an expression of lust. That’s what you describe here.

If she was 300 lbs, or never showered or took care of herself, would you want sex with her? If she sat around all the time crying, or yelled at you all the time, and any other list of bad behaviors and appearance issues that one could dram up…. Over the long run, how much would you want to have sex with this woman?


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Me personally no, but I would say 50% of men would not care. If we are just talking about sex.



So you think that 50% of men would want sex with a wife who was 300 lbs., or never showered or took care of herself, would you want sex with her? If she sat around all the time crying, or yelled at you all the time, and any other list of bad behaviors and appearance issues that one could dram up…. Over the long run, how much would you want to have sex with this woman?


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

EleGirl said:


> If she was 300 lbs, or never showered or took care of herself, would you want sex with her? If she sat around all the time crying, or yelled at you all the time, and any other list of bad behaviors and appearance issues that one could dram up…. Over the long run, how much would you want to have sex with this woman?


Wait...you know my wife? :awink:

Just kidding.

Seriously, though, I will say this. My sex drive is such that yes, I probably would, since it is either celibacy or sex with that woman (or cheating or divorce - cheating isn't even an option if I wanted to, and divorce looks to be worse than celibacy at this point). 

Now, my wife isn't 300 lbs., but she is much, much heavier than she has been at any other point in our relationship. She showers and throws on her makeup in the morning, she shaves her legs every couple weeks, she goes to the salon every six months or so, but that's about it. And she has been overwhelmed, and angry and resentful towards me more often than not for the past several years, at least until recently. She's done a lot (either consciously or not) to make me feel like **** during all that time (or, to be more responsible, I've *let* her make me feel like **** - she says or does things, but I am always ultimately responsible for letting those things she says or does hurt me or make me feel like ****). 

And I still don't turn her down for sex those rare instances where she offers it, lol. 

Granted, I stopped *pursuing* her for sex years ago, but I'm not going to say no if she offers.


----------



## Affaircare

The way I view it, the ten emotional needs that Dr. Harley lists are not the ONLY emotional needs a person can have, but they are the ten most common. In addition, of the ten there are not five that are only "women's needs" and the other five that are "men's needs" but again, they are the ten most popular needs (if you will) and gender can go either way. 

That being said, one of the things Dear Hubby and I did when we were reconciling after my affair was to very specifically go over these needs. Not only did we share "this is what my needs are" but also some examples of what we thought meeting that need would look like. So my Dear Hubby does know my needs and has some ideas of what I think that means---and likewise I do know his needs and have some ideas from him of that he thinks meeting it would look like. 

IN ADDITION, we also looked over the Love Busters, and honestly I consider that even more important! Because here's the thing: how many times have you heard of a couple who goes out on dates and tries to do the stuff to feel love again, but their wheels are spinning and they're getting nowhere and can't figure out why? Tons of times, right? It's because while they ADD to the love bank by meeting emotional needs, they are also simultaneously withdrawing from the love bank by love busting!!! It's like pouring water into a bucket full of holes! 

So what you do is look at the love busters and work on stopping them first. Hey even if you don't "add" to the love account, at least the leakage has stopped! Plug the holes in the bucket and make sure that bucket is nice and waterproof first...AND THEN start pouring in the emotional needs!! Then the deposits in the old bank can add up. 
_____________

Now all that being said, here are the Love Busters:

Selfish Demands-This isn't healthy positive self-interest...this is being a married person and not considering how the decision you make will affect your spouse and your family. This is the person who doesn't request, but DEMANDS. This is the spouse who doesn't care if their actions hurt someone "because it makes me feel good."

Disrespectful Judgments-This one is probably one of the biggest love busters, because it's when one spouse assumes that THEIR WAY is the only way to do something, and they try to force their values or methods onto their spouse. The disrespect part is acting as if your spouse's value and method isn't just as equal as YOUR value and method...as if to say you are the only one who knows what's right and wrong! The judgments part is acting as if you are in a position to judge your spouse and criticize them. Perfect example: wife nags and nags hubby to help with the dishes, so he goes to load the dishwasher, and she yells at him "Because he loaded it wrong"! Will the water still get on the dishes? Will the stuff be scrubbed off? Then his way is just as equal as your way! 

Angry Outburst-This one is DEFINITELY the number one love buster, and we can all identify it. It's when our spouse gets so pissed they verbally abuse us. It's calling names, ridicules you, humiliates you, say hurtful things purposefully, twists your words, makes threats, harasses you. SOOOO...it's also when you get so pissed that you call your spouse names, ridicule them, humiliate them, say hurtful things purposefully, twist their words, threaten them with some retaliation if they don't do what you want, harass them until they do it your way, or bring up things from the past that in an attempt to "win" the fight! 

Annoying Habits-This one you might say "Whoa are you kidding me?" We all have habits that are kind of annoying like squeezing the toothpaste differently or hanging the TP differently, right? But for this to be a love buster, it's the intent behind the habit. The idea is supposed to be that you LOVE your spouse and want them to treat you in a loving way--and likewise that YOU would want to treat them in a loving way! Well how loving is it to hear your spouse repeatedly ask you to not do XXX habit and just keep doing it because you're too lazy to change? The sad thing is that most of these habits are stupid things like dropping socks on the floor...SUPER EASY TO CHANGE!! But instead, it's like the drip-drip-drip-drip-drip of a leaky faucet that eventually carves the Grand Canyon. Sock by sock the love is diminished. 

Independent Behavior-This one often confuses people, but here's the gist of it: when you get married, you VOLUNTEER to be two people now, not just alone by yourself. That means that whenever one spouse makes a decision or choice, it affect the other spouse! So a guy can't go around acting like a "single guy" anymore because he's not single! And a gal can't just take off for GNO because she's not single anymore! Even if there aren't kids, the two are one "entity" now--and what one chooses will have an impact on the other. So it's not to say "I have to merge my inner self with another" (that is co-dependence) but rather "If I choose to go do ___ it will mean ___ for my spouse." There is always another person to consider! It's the cost/benefit of being married: you aren't alone, but the cost is that you aren't alone 

Dishonesty-This is one of my favorite love busters, and here's why. Dishonesty is not some huge, deceptive fabrication...it's letting your spouse think you are who you aren't. Or letting them think you aren't who you are. It's LITTLE things--very little things. Good example: you tell your hubby to get going on the mowing, and he tells you "Honey, that tone of voice is not okay with me. I am more than happy for a reminder to do it, but that sounded snappy and demanding to me. Is that how you meant it to sound?" See, he's not letting her think he's the kind of guy who will take demand (letting her think he is who he's not). Likewise, when someone is just starting an EA they hide the texts etc. because they want to project the image of "the good spouse" while covering up the fact they are unfaithful (letting them think they are not who they are).


----------



## EleGirl

Affaircare said:


> The way I view it, the ten emotional needs that Dr. Harley lists are not the ONLY emotional needs a person can have, but they are the ten most common. In addition, of the ten there are not five that are only "women's needs" and the other five that are "men's needs" but again, they are the ten most popular needs (if you will) and gender can go either way.


That's a very good post (the one above this one). I want to address just this part of it. 

I am sure that some could come up with additional emotional needs. And I think that if a person has some emotional need that is not listed here, it is ok to add it to the list.

I'm not sure what these additional needs might be, since I tend to think that they can probably be put as sub-needs/sub-categories to the ones on the list. But the idea is that the list is flexible. A person ranks each from most important to least important. And then they define what in each category is important to them, why and how to meet it. It's basically a flexible framework.

Loves busters are the same... flexible and a person individualizes the list.


----------



## sokillme

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I definitely agree.
> 
> When I was my wife's (and everyone else's) 'hero', I was just living my life and doing it successfully. Promotion at work? 'Hero!' Completing a big house project? 'Hero!' Sharing what I know such that it helps someone else? 'Hero!' Putting together an exciting adventure? 'Hero!' Being there for someone who needed me? 'Hero!' Being a leader in my community? 'Hero!'
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. There are times, though, when the striving creates results, and times when results don't seem to happen regardless of the striving. And ultimately, it's the results that you create that count, not how hard you were striving in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> I think one of my problems is that I want to be a good husband and a good father, and given that both of those roles involve other people, it's hard to just ignore their opinions (or the opinions of others) in assessing whether I'm achieving those goals.
> 
> I might think I'm a good husband and a good father, but if no one else agrees with me, am I really? How do I know the difference?
> 
> 
> 
> Certainly. But it was also a positive feedback loop. I would do great things, and I would immediately have love and desire heaped on me, which certainly helped keep me motivated to do great things.
> 
> 
> 
> I totally understand the KISA dynamic, and understand it's pitfalls. Learned helplessness being on of the big ones.
> 
> On the other hand, women want to be with a man they can respect and possibly even look up to. I've come to see that 'respect' and 'sexual attraction' are almost one and the same for many women. That's why many (including myself) see power as the ultimate aphrodisiac. If you look at what women say they want in a partner, attributes like 'drive' and 'ambition' and 'assertiveness' and 'dominance' and 'resourcefulness' and the like come up a lot. The PUAs (IIRC) assert that women are sexually attracted to men with the trifecta of Looks/Money/Status, and that certainly seems to play out in real life.
> 
> Additionally, most women I've talked to (including my wife) want to feel 'taken care of' by their man. So I haven't yet figured out where being a strong, powerful man who takes care of his wife crosses the line into being a KISA.
> 
> Men have always borne the 'burden of performance' in relationships. They are expected to *do* things to *earn* the respect and love of a woman. It starts with men wooing and romancing women at the beginning, and continues throughout the marriage, with the man being seen as valuable through his ability to 'protect and provide' for his family. You can argue that modern society makes a man's ability to 'protect and provide' less important, but women seem to still put a lot of value on his performance.


Reading your post no wonder you are struggling. No offense. 

Basically everyone of your hero qualities that you list are material. Are there women out there that this is the primary reason for being in a relationship, sure, are they ****ty, hell yeah. In today's day and age where women can get their own and don't need a man to do it, a women like that is just lazy. I would run over glass to get away from them. PUAs will certainly get you a lot of those types of women though. The main way to measure your success in that philosophy is your sex count. Those types of women are probably only really safe for that. Certainly not long term relationships. That being said, not sure why you are using a hookup philosophy to measure your marriage or self-worth. Hell why even be married if that is your philosophy.

I always thought the idea is to have someone love you for _who you are_ not what you do.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> I always thought the idea is to have someone love you for _who you are_ not what you do.


It seems to me that who we are is defined by what we do.

For example a person is a cheating louse because they cheat.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> So you think that 50% of men would want sex with a wife who was 300 lbs., or never showered or took care of herself, would you want sex with her? If she sat around all the time crying, or yelled at you all the time, and any other list of bad behaviors and appearance issues that one could dram up…. Over the long run, how much would you want to have sex with this woman?


You ask about having sex. Not being married. 

I wouldn't be married to someone who I was unattracted to our held me in contempt or visa versa. First of all not all of my attraction to a person is physical. Say my wife got sick an gained a lot of weight, if she is sick I doubt we would be having sex, but I still think there are things I could find attractive about her. I have sad it before and I really mean this, my wife "to me" looks no different then the day I married her. This is just how I love. Second of all, I am not nor have I ever been contemptible no one holds me in contempt and is in a relationship with me. I am sure there are times I piss them off though. 

As far as 



> If she sat around all the time crying, or yelled at you all the time, and any other list of bad behaviors and appearance issues that one could dram up…. Over the long run, how much would you want to have sex with this woman


I would be long gone before it ever got to that state so sex wouldn't be an issue. Of course first I would try hard to fix any issues, misunderstandings or hurts. But if she was acting like that I would be divorced and probably having sex with someone else. That's just me. Frankly being that way insures it never does get to that place.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> It seems to me that who we are is defined by what we do.
> 
> For example a person is a cheating louse because they cheat.


I meant in the context of his post. "Looks/Money/Status"

Meaning, I don't want a person to love me for my Job or even if everything I do is successful. I want them to love me for what my motivation is. Who I am why I do what I do. Who I am.

In context of what you said, I would add that that what you do is just as much a reflection of who you are. The who you are comes first.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> So you think that 50% of men would want sex with a wife who was 300 lbs., or never showered or took care of herself, would you want sex with her? If she sat around all the time crying, or yelled at you all the time, and any other list of bad behaviors and appearance issues that one could dram up…. Over the long run, how much would you want to have sex with this woman?
> 
> 
> 
> You ask about having sex. Not being married.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong, but isn’t this thread about needs in marriage? I sort of assumed that it was. 


sokillme said:


> I wouldn't be married to someone who I was unattracted to our held me in contempt. First of all not all of my attraction to a person is physical. Say my wife got sick an gained a lot of weight, if she is sick I doubt we would be having sex, but I still think there are things I could find attractive about her. I have sad it before and I really mean this, my wife to me looks no different then the day I married her. Second of all, I am not nor have I ever been contemptible no one holds me in contempt and is in a relationship with me. I am sure there are times I piss them off though.
> As far as
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If she sat around all the time crying, or yelled at you all the time, and any other list of bad behaviors and appearance issues that one could dram up…. Over the long run, how much would you want to have sex with this woman
> 
> 
> 
> I would be long gone before it ever got to that state so sex wouldn't be an issue. Of course first I would try hard to fix any issues, misunderstandings or hurts. But if she was acting like that I would be divorced and probably having sex with someone else. That's just me. Frankly being that way insures it never does get to that place.
Click to expand...

Ok, so you would not be married to or have sex with someone who you found unattractive or held in contempt.

So why does it surprise you that some women (probably most) would not have sex with a husband who they found unattractive and/or they held in contempt?


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> I meant in the context of his post. "Looks/Money/Status"
> 
> Meaning, I don't want a person to love me for my Job or even if everything I do is successful. I want them to love me for what my motivation is. Who I am why I do what I do. Who I am.
> 
> In context of what you said, I would add that that what you do is just as much a reflection of who you are. The who you are comes first.


I agree that loving someone for their looks, job, money & status not ok. Those are fleeting things. If you (generic "you") love someone for their looks, job, money and status, you don't love that person, you love those things. The person simply is the way to get those things.... to use the person.

But...

If you marry someone who seems to be hardworking, loving, etc. and then after marriage they lose their job, play on the computer all day and do not get a job, do not do their fair share with the house and children, and stop spending any time with their spouse...... this is who they are... lazy, selfish, and self absorbed. Actions count and define who this person is. They can say all day that they are hard working and loving... clearly they are not.


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

sokillme said:


> Reading your post no wonder you are struggling. No offense.
> 
> Basically everyone of your hero qualities that you list are material. Are there women out there that this is the primary reason for being in a relationship, sure, are they ****ty, hell yeah. In today's day and age where women can get their own and don't need a man to do it, a women like that is just lazy.


I remember reading a broad survey from the UK a couple decades ago. It indicated that women highly desired a partner who was more financially successful than themselves, _including women who were financially successful enough to be independent themselves._ 

What is one of the first things women mention about their partners? What they do for a living. What is one of the first things a woman will ask about a man whom she finds attractive? "What does he do for a living?" 

A man being unemployed/underemployed is one of the most often cited reasons for divorce, as are 'financial difficulties.'

As I said, if you read what qualities women look for in men, the qualities of 'drive', 'ambition', 'initiative-taking', 'assertiveness', 'dominance', etc. always come out near the top. And from my conversations from women IRL, I have no reason to doubt those findings.

According to everything I've ever read/heard, 'security' is one of the highest priorities for women in a relationship, if not the highest priority. Even for women who are 'independent.' A man's ability to protect and provide for his family is one of his most valuable assets. Very few women I've met are happy with a man whom they feel is inadequate at fulfilling those roles. 

Most women I know admire a man who can, credibly, legitimately, and competently, lay claim to the role of being 'the head of the household.' Some women might enjoy 'wearing the pants' in her marriage, but they seem to be a small minority.

I have learned to not underestimate a woman's need to feel secure and 'taken care of', especially women who have or want to have children (where she knows she is going to have to rely on her husband far more than she would otherwise).



> PUAs will certainly get you a lot of those types of women though. The main way to measure your success in that philosophy is your sex count. Those types of women are probably only really safe for that. Certainly not long term relationships. That being said, not sure why you are using a hookup philosophy to measure your marriage or self-worth.


I'm not blanketly aligning myself with PUAs. I'm just referencing where I first saw the observation and giving credit where it is due. Regardless of who first made the observation, it does seem to hold true in actual practice. 



> I always thought the idea is to have someone love you for _who you are_ not what you do.


But what men *do* is a huge part of *who they are*. 

Look at all the shaming language that is ubiquitously used to describe men who aren't 'cutting it' in their roles as men. They are most attacked for their perceived incompetency and weakness and immaturity. Calling a man weak or incompetent or inadequate or worthless or immature are some of the most hard-hitting insults a man can receive. That's why the most popular derisions include some form of being a 'loser', a 'deadbeat', a 'peter pan' or 'man-child', a ****, etc.

Men are told to 'man up' and 'do what needs to be done' all the time. Men are expected to sacrifice themselves on behalf of their families, and *not* sacrificing oneself for one's family is one of the most dishonorable things a man can do. 

While men can be loved for who they are, who they are is largely determined by what they do.


----------



## Affaircare

@sokillme, 

I think I can actually give you an example that will make sense to you. I think in a very general, broad statement we could all say that we want to be loved for "who we are" not necessarily for "what we do." As a male human being, you would like to be loved for "who you are" not your wallet or job. As a female human being, I would like to be loved for "who I am" not my looks or attractiveness. These statements are just TRUE. 

But when we talk about emotional needs, we are talking about "What turns on the love spigot FOR YOU?" See, for you, and for many men, one portion of the love spigot is attractiveness in one definition or another. Now I'm not say "all men are pigs and need attractive women" or other feminist baloney...but rather that part of what fills the love bucket, if you will, is some kind of visual attraction. 

So when Dear Hubby and I met, I was a young woman, in my early thirties with two kids...now I'm in my fifties and we have SEVEN kids. My 50yo body is not my 30yo body. Does that mean that he gets to stop loving me because I have stretch marks and gray hair? Or do I have to try to compete with 30yo to keep my husband "in love" with me? No. That is not what we're saying. 

But what we ARE saying is that some people (male and female) ARE visual. For some people, attractiveness can have in impact on the feelings of love. Envision a young man who is highly successful who married a very beautiful girl for the express purpose of being arm candy and being his hostess to other high power successful men? Even as she ages some and he ages some, he wants her to keep buying form-fitting, designer clothing to keep that certain image. He wants her to get her hair and nails done. He provides for her to opportunity to have a personal trainer and nannies so she can keep her appearance as best as possible. PART of his love for her does revolve around how she looks...if she let herself go, it would be like the drip-drip-drip of the annoying habits love buster. 

Also, that's not saying he's "good" or "bad" for wanting an attractive spouse--it's just who he is and what tends to enhance love FOR HIM. 

Then there are people like me. My appearance meter is pretty low--I tend to love a person much moreso for their character, their sense of humor, their intellect--and to me if someone is within some minimal perimeters, I'm fine. If they gain or lose weight, it doesn't really affect me because that's not who I am and it doesn't enhance love FOR ME. I'm also not saying I want a pig or a slob--just that if someone's physical appearance changed but their mind was entirely the same, it most likely would not deter feelings of love because 'physical attractiveness' isn't one of my emotional needs. 

Does this make sense? It's actually very similar for financial support. The truth is that many people want a life partner who has good credit, who has access to making a good living, and who can provide finances for their joint family. It used to be that women looked for a man who would be "the provider" but I think it's becoming more and more balanced, don't you? Some men look for a woman who can do more than "contribute a little" to the family financial pool, and some men look for a woman who has good credit and has taken care of herself financially as she's not such a burden on him! Well...that means that PART of what enhances love feelings for that guy is financial support. And often that can mean a wife who can stick to a budget!! LOL 

Now not everyone needs financial support. Not everyone needs an attractive spouse. But for those who do, it just means that if a candidate is able to provide that, the likelihood is greater that love will stay or grow. If the wife's #1 need is financial support and hubby is unemployed and constantly overspends, guess what? There is going to be a loss of love!

So it's not "good" or "bad" to have either of these needs--it's just a way of describing "this is the stuff that turns on the love spigot for me." 

BTW, I realize I never even answered your question!! LOL

My top emotional needs (in no particular order) are: 

Affection
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Admiration


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> I could be wrong, but isn’t this thread about needs in marriage? I sort of assumed that it was.
> 
> As far as
> 
> 
> 
> I would be long gone before it ever got to that state so sex wouldn't be an issue. Of course first I would try hard to fix any issues, misunderstandings or hurts. But if she was acting like that I would be divorced and probably having sex with someone else. That's just me. Frankly being that way insures it never does get to that place.
> 
> Ok, so you would not be married to or have sex with someone who you found unattractive or held in contempt.
> 
> So why does it surprise you that some women (probably most) would not have sex with a husband who they found unattractive and/or they held in contempt?


I am sure there are plenty of men who still have sex with their wives they can't stand. PLENTY. Wives too. Not sure what the point is. 

Where did I say it surprised me? Where did I say they were wrong not to. I don't even know what you are talking about. 

The point of this post was to talk about women's emotional needs, not about sexless marriage. The idea of this thread was primarily as a way to start dialogue, to help MEN, maybe even me, understand what wives need from their husbands emotionally. I'm thinking maybe it would be helpful because I read those words (he isn't providing for my emotional needs) all the time. I think a lot of men don't get what this is. So I thought maybe start a post about it so us men could read it and maybe it would help all of our marriages (men and women). Even in a thread like that though you have found a way to turn this into battle of the sexes. 

Seriously I know you were married to some bad guys but not everything is an attack on you or wives or women. I happen to be very sympathetic to women whose husbands don't communicate with them. I get it. I was raised to get it. But lots of men don't. That was the point of this thread. 

You know what would be helpful? Examples from you of when yours husbands were or were not taking care of your emotional needs. What that did to you and your marriage. 

You're right if your husband is yelling at you all the time then I would tell the wife to do what I told my Mom to do with my stepfather, divorce his ass. I am the last person you should think would defend a man like that. 

If he weighs 300 pounds (because he is lazy, not because he is sick), don't have sex with him. 

OK?

In this case I am talking about the husband who is a good man, wants his marriage to work, but has not been raised to be emotionally intelligent or emotionally thoughtful enough to just understand what the needs are. Who is struggling. Or who really thinks that working hard and providing a roof over their heads is his only role. Sadly that isn't always done out of malice. There are a whole hell of a lot of men out there that fit this in this paradigm. 



> I could be wrong, but isn’t this thread about needs in marriage? I sort of assumed that it was.


You ARE wrong this is a thread about WOMEN'S emotional needs in marriage. 

GESHH


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> I agree that loving someone for their looks, job, money & status not ok. Those are fleeting things. If you (generic "you") love someone for their looks, job, money and status, you don't love that person, you love those things. The person simply is the way to get those things.... to use the person.
> 
> But...
> 
> If you marry someone who seems to be hardworking, loving, etc. and then after marriage they lose their job, play on the computer all day and do not get a job, do not do their fair share with the house and children, and stop spending any time with their spouse...... this is who they are... lazy, selfish, and self absorbed. Actions count and define who this person is. They can say all day that they are hard working and loving... clearly they are not.


 @Affaircare, @EleGirl

Please look at my reply as a response to the quoted reply in the text not a general statement about emotional needs. Frankly I would think you would agree with me since the ideas I am replying to is basically PUAs bull****. 

The man basically said his wife doesn't love him anymore because he doesn't make the money he once did and has failed at things recently. He said this is the most important thing women look for in a man. Maybe you agree with him? 

My point is she should love him for who he is, not what he does because everyone fails at times. 

Context people.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> Affection
> Conversation
> Recreational Companionship
> Honesty and Openness
> Admiration


How about some examples when that wasn't working and now that it is. What does that look like? How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it? How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you? Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> @Affaircare, @EleGirl
> 
> 
> 
> EleGirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that loving someone for their looks, job, money & status not ok. Those are fleeting things. If you (generic "you") love someone for their looks, job, money and status, you don't love that person, you love those things. The person simply is the way to get those things.... to use the person.
> 
> But...
> 
> If you marry someone who seems to be hardworking, loving, etc. and then after marriage they lose their job, play on the computer all day and do not get a job, do not do their fair share with the house and children, and stop spending any time with their spouse...... this is who they are... lazy, selfish, and self absorbed. Actions count and define who this person is. They can say all day that they are hard working and loving... clearly they are not.
> 
> 
> 
> @Affaircare, @EleGirl
> 
> Please look at my reply as a response to the quoted reply in the text not a general statement about emotional needs. Frankly I would think you would agree with me since the ideas I am replying to is basically PUAs bull****.
> 
> The man basically said his wife doesn't love him anymore because he doesn't make the money he once did and has failed at things recently. He said this is the most important thing women look for in a man. Maybe you agree with him?
> 
> My point is she should love him for who he is, not what he does because everyone fails at times.
> 
> Context people.
Click to expand...

Yes I agree with you and I was adding some context. Maybe you don’t understand my context????


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

...


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Me personally no, but I would say 50% of men would not care. If we are just talking about sex.


Yet about the same number of men will decide to end the sex in their marriage when their wife is not meeting their other needs as women do. 

That was the point.. using the emotional need of sex (since jld raised it and you were talking to her about it) as the example of a idea that men too chose to not let their wife meet their needs when they do not find their wives attractive and/or have contempt for their wives.


----------



## sokillme

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Maybe I should ask the women -
> 
> How important is 'security' (material as well as emotional) to your marriage? Does what your partner do (or not do) affect your feeling of security? Is his ability to 'protect and provide' important to you?
> 
> Has the need for security become more or less important at different times of your life? For example, was security not as important early in your relationship but more important once you got going on having children?
> 
> I have had a front row seat to more 'failed' marriages (some of which ended in divorce, some didn't) in the past several years than I ever would have wanted to have. Many/most happened within a few years of having kids. All but one divorce was initiated by the woman.
> 
> In all of them, I noticed a pretty solid trend. Almost every woman complained that she was 'sick and tired of her husband', that he was 'worthless', 'a child', 'incompetent', 'not doing enough', 'weak', 'a disappointment', 'a loser', 'an underachiever', 'needing to man up', 'didn't care about his family', etc. Three divorces were the direct result of the man becoming unemployed (and remaining unemployed for too long) during the recession.
> 
> While I can't say that those complaints (and resulting actions) were entirely the result of a lack of the wife feeling secure (and content in that security), it certainly does look that way from the outside.


Can you post this in it's own thread. I would be interested in it too. Just not in this one.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Yet about the same number of men will decide to end the sex in their marriage when their wife is not meeting their other needs as women do.
> 
> That was the point.. using the emotional need of sex (since jld raised it and you were talking to her about it) as the example of a idea that men too chose to not let their wife meet their needs when they do not find their wives attractive and/or have contempt for their wives.


OK... 

Again this was not a thread condemning women for ending marriage because their needs were not met (this is obviously situational). Maybe that is the disconnected. I am not judging them for ending it. I am trying to preemptively figure out what the needs are and talk about it. That is really all.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Yes I agree with you and I was adding some context. Maybe you don’t understand my context????


Well my point was your wife should love you for who you are, not what you do because everyone fails at times. 

But as EleGirl points out that you are what you do, so I guess you are a failure and in this case your just **** out of luck. 

Thanks Ele!


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

sokillme said:


> Can you post this in it's own thread. I would be interested in it too. Just not in this one.


Sure! Good idea...


----------



## Jessica38

Nevermind, just saw post about starting a new thread on this.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> OK...
> 
> Again this was not a thread condemning women for ending marriage because their needs were not met (this is obviously situational). Maybe that is the disconnected. I am not judging them for ending it. I am trying to preemptively figure out what the needs are and talk about it. That is really all.


You are so grossly missing the point of what I was trying to say, that I give up and will just say this....



Dazedconfuzed said:


> I think it's hard for women to think about wanting their partner to meet more 'intimate' needs when they unattracted to and maybe even contemptuous of that partner.
> 
> I think there is a lot that needs to be in place before the question of 'what needs can I meet?' can be relevant. If a woman finds you unattractive, trying to meet her intimate needs will make her uncomfortable at best.


Yes a lot of women are like this. And so are a lot of men. This is not a female only reaction to not having one's needs met. And I think it's important to realize that this both men and women can get to this point when their spouse is not meeting their needs for a long time. And they can get to this point when they are not attracted to their spouse and/or are contemptuous of their spouse. 

Who would want to have someone near them that they are not attracted to and who they are contemptuous of? Not many people regardless of gender.

Seems like relationship 101 to me.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Well my point was your wife should love you for who you are, not what you do because everyone fails at times.
> 
> But as EleGirl points out that you are what you do, so I guess you are a failure and in this case your just **** out of luck.
> 
> Thanks Ele!


Oh good Lord. You are so twisting what I said... doing a lot of that today.

Yes everyone fails at times. And your spouse should still love you if/when you fail. That's because your spouse should just love you.

If you fail at something, but then strive to learn from the failure and move forward..... then I would hope that your spouse would continue to love you.

But love in marriage is not unconditional.

If you fail at something and your response to that is to give up on life, spend every working moment playing computer games and surfing the web, do nothing to help out with home and children, and ignore your spouse don't expect the love your spouse has for you to last very long.

SoKillMe, do you really expect someone to just love their spouse for who they are in the second example I gave?


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> In this case I am talking about the husband who is a good man, wants his marriage to work, but has not been raised to be emotionally intelligent or emotionally thoughtful enough to just understand what the needs are. Who is struggling. Or who really thinks that working hard and providing a roof over their heads is his only role. Sadly that isn't always done out of malice. There are a whole hell of a lot of men out there that fit this in this paradigm.


So you are saying that some men thing that the only thing that they are supposed to do when married is to work and financially support their wife and children. That they don’t need to spend time with their wife… they can just ignore her and she is going to be happy?

Well if they are not clueless, I guess they need to get a clue, don’t they? 

I would say the same thing to a woman who was raised to believe that all she needs to do is to keep a clean house, take care of the children and cook. After all that was all she was taught. So, she ignores all the rest of her husband’s needs. She refuses to spend time with him, etc. There are a hell of a lot of women out there that fit in this paradigm as well. We certainly have a lot of men here on TAM posting about this. I’d tell her to get a clue too if she wants to stay married to her husband.

I feel badly for people who have this mind set. But they are responsible to seeking out the help that they need to fix their point of view. Their marriage will most likely fail if they don’t.


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

EleGirl said:


> his is not a female only reaction to not having one's needs met. And I think it's important to realize that this both men and women can get to this point when their spouse is not meeting their needs for a long time.


Oh yes, for sure.

As a matter of fact, I was just confronting this myself recently. As much as I complain about my spouse 'not meeting my needs', am I actually open to her doing so? Have I been open the whole time, or were there times I shut down her attempts because they weren't 'good enough/enthusiastic enough' or because I felt she was doing them out of a sense of obligation or 'duty' rather than because she wanted to? What if she was still the same person she is today (which is to say, not a person that I feel very romantic about or 'in love' with a lot of the time, i.e., a person that I'm not usually 'attracted' to) but tried to fulfill on what I say I want, would I accept what she offered? Even if I felt like she was doing it for anything but 'heartfelt' reasons?

Those were some sobering questions for me. Am I being responsible for my part, or am I just putting it all on her to 'fix things'?

If I'm going to rebuild my marriage, I may need to compromise (at least in the beginning) my 'romantic ideals.' If we 'go through the motions' for a while and still feel little-to-no 'in love' feelings or feelings of attraction, then another assessment may be needed. But in the meantime, I realize that I need to be more responsible in not pre-emptively extinguishing any efforts on her part just because they aren't how *I* want my needs to be met. It may be awkward or frustrating or unsatisfying for a while, but it's *something*, and we both need to appreciate what is offered rather than focusing on what's *not* happening in the rebuilding process.


----------



## Jessica38

I think spouses ARE responsible for making their needs known to their partner, and for complaining when they aren't. I know complaining gets a bad rap but it's important to let our spouses know if they aren't hitting the mark so they can fix it. It really can be as simple as making it a habit to ask her about her day, or giving her a warm hug outside of the bedroom, or in our case, sit with me sometimes at our child's game.

I do think more spouses could learn how to ask better. I say that because I had to learn this too. I'd get so frustrated that by the time I finally did say something, it didn't come out as nicely as it should. So I've learned that a "it would mean a lot to me if you would XYZ" can go a long way.

Dazed, I do think it's ok to ask your spouse to meet your needs in the way that you'd like. I enjoy it when my husband makes time to talk to me, but I wouldn't want to spend an hour discussing football, for example.


----------



## crocus

So kill me 
Yes it's about what you do.
As in...everyone makes mistakes. Life happens. Lose jobs, health.
It's what you DO when this stuff happens and how you handle mistakes.
True for both genders.
Meeting needs CAN be dependent on those things.
So when stuff happens, what do you do about it?
That's the point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## crocus

Jessica38 said:


> I think spouses ARE responsible for making their needs known to their partner, and for complaining when they aren't. I know complaining gets a bad rap but it's important to let our spouses know if they aren't hitting the mark so they can fix it. It really can be as simple as making it a habit to ask her about her day, or giving her a warm hug outside of the bedroom, or in our case, sit with me sometimes at our child's game.
> 
> I do think more spouses could learn how to ask better. I say that because I had to learn this too. I'd get so frustrated that by the time I finally did say something, it didn't come out as nicely as it should. So I've learned that a "it would mean a lot to me if you would XYZ" can go a long way.
> 
> Dazed, I do think it's ok to ask your spouse to meet your needs in the way that you'd like. I enjoy it when my husband makes time to talk to me, but I wouldn't want to spend an hour discussing football, for example.




Well said. I once had the idea that it would be most helpful if people wore warning labels.
If you're going to insist that feeling wanted only looks a certain way, then wear a label. So we all know not to do what we know instead.
I now try to limit my expectations to black and white yes or no answers. And take the "adjective " expectations with a grain of salt. I ask for specific examples of actions that, to them, satisfied their expectations. "When did you last feel like you were wanted? What was said, exactly "
Help write that label. (And it's perfectly okay) doesn't cost me anything to learn another language.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Oh good Lord. You are so twisting what I said... doing a lot of that today.
> 
> Yes everyone fails at times. And your spouse should still love you if/when you fail. That's because your spouse should just love you.
> 
> If you fail at something, but then strive to learn from the failure and move forward..... then I would hope that your spouse would continue to love you.
> 
> But love in marriage is not unconditional.
> 
> If you fail at something and your response to that is to give up on life, spend every working moment playing computer games and surfing the web, do nothing to help out with home and children, and ignore your spouse don't expect the love your spouse has for you to last very long.
> 
> SoKillMe, do you really expect someone to just love their spouse for who they are in the second example I gave?


For me it would have to do with the motives. For instance there is that post by that poor women who was raped. Sadly her husband may never get to have a sex life again. That is a terrible loss for both of them. Should he say? Would I stay? It's very hard to say. What if they had sex but she got morbidly obese as some women due as a defense mechanism. I would push very hard for her to seek treatment, but if she didn't would it be OK for me to leave? Maybe. Would I leave, no I don't think I would.

What if you were to marry a man who got robbed at gun point and that caused him severe PTSD. What if before that a big part of your marriage was going out on the town, but now he just couldn't. Should you leave? How about spouses who suffer from depression. How about wives who go through years of postpartum depression. That happens. 

I am very against staying with someone who abuses or abused you. But I am much easier on people who have personal failing. I believe if you love someone you love them despite personal flaws. At least you try and I mean years of trying.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> So you are saying that some men thing that the only thing that they are supposed to do when married is to work and financially support their wife and children. That they don’t need to spend time with their wife… they can just ignore her and she is going to be happy?
> 
> Yes I know there are men like that. Hell we have had men post that very thing on here, and then say how wrong they were. I don't necessarily think that it is done out of malice. What a terrible tragedy, but yes it happens. I also think for a lot more men, they are not sure how to do it so they feel powerless. They have never had to be emotionally deep so it's not easy to just do that. And yes there are some men who just don't care or more they take their wives for granted. I see this very similar to the women who think men just want to have sex with them to get off, and don't understand how important it is for a man to bond with his wife.
> 
> Well if they are not clueless, I guess they need to get a clue, don’t they?
> 
> Which is why I started this thread, in which I asked you specific questions that you have not answered that could be helpful in.
> 
> I would say the same thing to a woman who was raised to believe that all she needs to do is to keep a clean house, take care of the children and cook. After all that was all she was taught. So, she ignores all the rest of her husband’s needs. She refuses to spend time with him, etc. There are a hell of a lot of women out there that fit in this paradigm as well. We certainly have a lot of men here on TAM posting about this. I’d tell her to get a clue too if she wants to stay married to her husband.
> 
> Again I was hoping this thread could be about getting a clue, not if you are your actions or not. _sigh_
> 
> I feel badly for people who have this mind set. But they are responsible to seeking out the help that they need to fix their point of view. Their marriage will most likely fail if they don’t.
> 
> Uh huh... I start a thread to help sad people....


----------



## Affaircare

sokillme said:


> How about some examples when that wasn't working and now that it is. What does that look like? How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it? How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you? Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?


Ah good suggestion! I will try to give examples for each emotional need and answer your questions for each as well. For a little context (since that seems to be an issue here  ) I am 55yo currently and Dear Hubby is 60yo. When we married we earned about the same, I was attracted to his intellect and wit, and we had very similar backgrounds and interests. He is an INTP and I am in E/INFP but when we met we didn't know that. My affair was 10 years ago, all online. 

*Affection*
_Example: _My love language is Words of Affirmation, so an example of affection to me is telling me you love me, telling me you think I'm pretty, telling me you love my outfit or the dinner I made, reading a poem, writing a song (or singing one with meaningful words), etc. AND having actions match those words. 
_How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it? _Before R his love language is Touch, so he would hold hands, cuddle, etc. but to me that was leaning toward sex, not affection. He still as a little trouble with this one, as he's not naturally "talkative" but what he says is real (not a fake compliment) and he often can find a poem or song with lyrics that say what he wants to say. That works for both of us. 
_How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you?_ Well prior to talking about it with each other, he assumed "I told you I love you, and if that every changes I'll notify you then." LOL So HE had to learn that saying it meant something to me, even if it feels redundant to him--and I had to learn that it feels redundant to him so that when he does say something, it's a little diamond to hold onto. 
_Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Oh shoot I don't even know how to answer this question! First, I only accept affection from him. If anyone else tries to throw a little "out there" I shoot that **** down and fast! But every single day I actually LOOK FOR the little affectionate things he's doing and give him positive feedback when he does try something. So many people only look for the ways their spouse "failed them" rather than looking for the good stuff, and if they try the good stuff but don't quite do it right, do ya honestly think yelling at them is going to encourage trying again? HECK NO! They just learned "Do not try no matter what!" So if he tries, but let's say I want more affection, I'll just say "Hey sweetie could I have one of those big bear hugs that last 5 minutes too?" I've found about 90% of the time he is not sure what to do, and if I just ask out loud, he is happy to do it! Like "Yay, I don't have to figure this out and guess wrong!" 

*Conversation*
_Example:_ Well this is easy--I like to talk. So stopping what you're doing, paying attention when I talk, remembering what I said, and engaging in the talking all mean "I love you" to me. It means I am important enough for you to pay attention and interact with me!
_How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ Actually taking that Myers Briggs test during R was VERY helpful! Before the test and before R, he didn't talk much and I assumed that meant he didn't care about me or sharing with me. What I discovered is that's not true AT ALL. When we took the test, we discovered I'm an ambivert, in that I like to talk to certain people, and otherwise I like staying home and being a happy little geek! LOL But he is a capital I Introvert. His life is internal and actually now that I've gotten to know him better, he has whole worlds and universes inside his head--so no need to come out here! :grin2: So a good part of explaining what for him to understand that this was really something I needed, and for me to understand that he wasn't "ignoring" me when he doesn't talk. We both have to change the way we think about it. 
_How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you?_ Well he's still not a big talker, and his illness doesn't help. He has CHF and his lungs fill with water enough that he often feels breathless--it's a constant struggle! But what he learned was to pick a couple topics that we both are passionate about, and since he likes them himself he'll talk to me about them. So it's interaction. We also keep the talks short to accommodate his illness. And again on my side I had to learn to recognize that what he does say out loud is gold and cherish it--and when he does talk to make the interaction positive and encouraging so that he wants to keep doing it. 
_Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Actually on this one, yeah. One thing we had real issues with was that we both had abusive ex-spouses, so we kind of learned from them to keep things to ourselves and not share things and be self-contained. Okay, after our respective divorces we both grew as humans, but neither one of us had a good model of what transparency was like where you were accepted...so we both had to go out on a limb and say "Okay--you asked for it. Here's my warts and all" and let the other guy in on what we were truly thinking. That is SO HARD and so scary. But both of us had this great agreement: if the other person was actually honest, even if it hurt to hear it, we agreed to say "Thank you for being honest. I want some time to think about what you've said." NO MATTER WHAT. I mean, if it wasn't so hurtful that you could accept it, cool you can keep going. But if it was so hurtful that you felt anger rising or some emotional kneejerk response coming--just say that agreement and then literally take some time to consider it. I think we both found that it's hard to hear of your downfallings, and you want to defend yourself...but if you think about it, it's true. So that's when we learned to go back and say "I thought about it, and even though I'm upset to think this is the case, what you said was true." Ya know?

*Recreational Companionship*
_Example:_ Haha--super easy! Do something fun with me! I like such a vast variety of things, it's not very hard. When we started dating we went to car shows, county fairs, concerts, museums, and camping. We read books together, and took classes together. See--just have a shared hobby/interest. We are both HUGE sci-fi geeks. 
_How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ This one he understood pretty well, but what had happened is that as he got more ill, well he literally can't walk for something like camping. He can't read long enough to read out loud without having a coughing fit. So what we've had to do is to continue "having fun" together but adapt how that looks. I mean let's be honest--going from shows, fairs, concerts and camping to staying home every day and night is a big adjustment! What we've learned though is much like sex--you don't STOP having fun due to physical ailments, you just change HOW you have the fun. We talk about it (fulfilling the conversation need) and we reach agreements/understandings. 
_How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you?_ Oh he is so creative! We can't get out as much so one thing he does is bring stuff INTO the house! We watch travel shows together. We eat unique cuisines. We cook recipes from around the world. Sometimes we camp inside in the living room with the campfire going on the TV (haha!). We also have become movie aficionados, focusing on sci-fi and drama moreso than chickflick types--neither one of us like them much anymore. We still read together, but I read out loud to him, and he comments. We take classes online. Get the idea? 
_Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Well geez just the fact that he tries at all means so much, especially because of our history. See, @sokillme I hope you hear it in pretty much everything I write--I HIGHLY regard my husband. I'm not sure I'd say he's my hero, cuz that kind of puts a fellow human being on a pedestal, but in many ways he's the kind of person I aspire to be. Of course in other ways, I love that I'm so dynamic and verbose. LOL. 

*Honesty and Openness*
_Example_: Ah. Easy one. I got a PM from someone here on TAM and I don't do PMs as a way of protecting my marriage. Anything I have to say, I'll say right out in front of everyone including my Dear Hubby. But I got this PM and I told him about it, asked him what to do, and together we worked out a way to respond. Another example, he's in the mood, I've got a cold, and normally I'd jump him but I just can NOT get there tonight--so in honesty, even though I feel like I'm letting him down, I have to be honest and tell him I'm just feeling like doodoo and take the risk that being open may hurt a little. The honesty overrides to possibility of potential hurt feelings, because it's authentic and I believe in him and trust him to deal with the truth in a mature way. 
_How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ This was tough. He's not one to talk much, and when he does, it is rarely about "what he feels" or emotions. But I know he does feel them, and I could see him getting happy or sad or angry (whatever), so it took years of SAFE SPACE for him to take the chance to try just telling me right out what he thought or felt--and that first time I could tell he was expecting to be berated! Happily that's not me! And after a few years of dipping his toe in and being safe to share his preference or make a request or just BE who he is, now he gets it. And honestly it's the exact same for me. I was so afraid to tell him what I really thought, but what I did was take a deep breath and say out loud, "Okay I'm being honest here so be nice" and then I'd share as kindly (but honestly) as I could. See we EACH had to discipline our own selves to not attack our spouse. 
_How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you? _ Good God, yes! He used to be stoic, and he's still not Mr. Sharealot, but he does answer and it's thorough and truthful. But I think even moreso both of us have learned that part of marriage is not just "living within the same space and sharing chores" but also knowing and being intimately known by someone else. 
_Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ I am not sure how to answer this one, because there is no one on the planet whom I long to know, like I long to know him. Likewise there is no one on the planet whom I want to know me, the way that I want him to see and know the real me. It's impossible but I try to not even wear "masks" with him. 

*Admiration*
_Example:_ After a long day at work, I have a co-worker who didn't do their work and then tried to dump a bunch of it on me saying it was urgent to get it done...and I have to tell them that lack of planning on their part does not mean an emergency for me. So I gather up my courage and I stand up for myself, and go straight to the co-worker (not gossiping with everyone else) and I tell him/her. Admiration would be "Wow, honey, I am so proud of you! A) you handled it really professionally and B) you really stood up for yourself! Good Job!" When someone admires me, I will follow them around like a puppy dog. 
_How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ This one he actually still has trouble with, but I think about 99% of it is because he doesn't talk as much as I do. It's weird--I think in his head he THINKS admiring things, but out loud he doesn't say it. So sometimes I have to remind him "Did you say your thoughts with out loud words?" (said with humor, cuz seriously--he forgets!) Of course, for my own self I have to remember that if I want to BE admired, I have to behave in an admirable way!
_How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you? _ Some is fairly easy--for example, he says please and thank you very often. Also, when we play a game, if I win he'll say 'good game' or 'congrats' and mean it. We also play World of Warcraft, and as geeky as it sounds, we compete over who has the highest DPS, etc. So we track stats and if I beat him, he's actually pretty good about it and boosts me with encouragement. I can't usually beat him, but sometimes I do!
_Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Yeah there is. There is pretty much one MAJOR way that I want him to admire me, and that's when he looks at me--any day, any time--I want him to look and see this woman who did the wrong thing but rather than staying in the wrong thing, made the effort to stop and do the RIGHT thing. I want him to be proud of me and glad to be married to me, and if I act like a person who is worthy of admiration then he can admire me, right?


----------



## sokillme

crocus said:


> So kill me
> Yes it's about what you do.
> As in...everyone makes mistakes. Life happens. Lose jobs, health.
> It's what you DO when this stuff happens and how you handle mistakes.
> True for both genders.
> Meeting needs CAN be dependent on those things.
> So when stuff happens, what do you do about it?
> That's the point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, yes, yes, the word DO in that context mean JOB or WORK. 

At this point I have to admit the point was too subtle as 3 people didn't get it.


----------



## sokillme

Affaircare said:


> Ah good suggestion! I will try to give examples for each emotional need and answer your questions for each as well. For a little context (since that seems to be an issue here  ) I am 55yo currently and Dear Hubby is 60yo. When we married we earned about the same, I was attracted to his intellect and wit, and we had very similar backgrounds and interests. He is an INTP and I am in E/INFP but when we met we didn't know that. My affair was 10 years ago, all online.
> 
> *Affection*
> _Example: _My love language is Words of Affirmation, so an example of affection to me is telling me you love me, telling me you think I'm pretty, telling me you love my outfit or the dinner I made, reading a poem, writing a song (or singing one with meaningful words), etc. AND having actions match those words.
> _How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it? _Before R his love language is Touch, so he would hold hands, cuddle, etc. but to me that was leaning toward sex, not affection. He still as a little trouble with this one, as he's not naturally "talkative" but what he says is real (not a fake compliment) and he often can find a poem or song with lyrics that say what he wants to say. That works for both of us.
> _How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you?_ Well prior to talking about it with each other, he assumed "I told you I love you, and if that every changes I'll notify you then." LOL So HE had to learn that saying it meant something to me, even if it feels redundant to him--and I had to learn that it feels redundant to him so that when he does say something, it's a little diamond to hold onto.
> _Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Oh shoot I don't even know how to answer this question! First, I only accept affection from him. If anyone else tries to throw a little "out there" I shoot that **** down and fast! But every single day I actually LOOK FOR the little affectionate things he's doing and give him positive feedback when he does try something. So many people only look for the ways their spouse "failed them" rather than looking for the good stuff, and if they try the good stuff but don't quite do it right, do ya honestly think yelling at them is going to encourage trying again? HECK NO! They just learned "Do not try no matter what!" So if he tries, but let's say I want more affection, I'll just say "Hey sweetie could I have one of those big bear hugs that last 5 minutes too?" I've found about 90% of the time he is not sure what to do, and if I just ask out loud, he is happy to do it! Like "Yay, I don't have to figure this out and guess wrong!"
> 
> *Conversation*
> _Example:_ Well this is easy--I like to talk. So stopping what you're doing, paying attention when I talk, remembering what I said, and engaging in the talking all mean "I love you" to me. It means I am important enough for you to pay attention and interact with me!
> _How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ Actually taking that Myers Briggs test during R was VERY helpful! Before the test and before R, he didn't talk much and I assumed that meant he didn't care about me or sharing with me. What I discovered is that's not true AT ALL. When we took the test, we discovered I'm an ambivert, in that I like to talk to certain people, and otherwise I like staying home and being a happy little geek! LOL But he is a capital I Introvert. His life is internal and actually now that I've gotten to know him better, he has whole worlds and universes inside his head--so no need to come out here! :grin2: So a good part of explaining what for him to understand that this was really something I needed, and for me to understand that he wasn't "ignoring" me when he doesn't talk. We both have to change the way we think about it.
> _How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you?_ Well he's still not a big talker, and his illness doesn't help. He has CHF and his lungs fill with water enough that he often feels breathless--it's a constant struggle! But what he learned was to pick a couple topics that we both are passionate about, and since he likes them himself he'll talk to me about them. So it's interaction. We also keep the talks short to accommodate his illness. And again on my side I had to learn to recognize that what he does say out loud is gold and cherish it--and when he does talk to make the interaction positive and encouraging so that he wants to keep doing it.
> _Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Actually on this one, yeah. One thing we had real issues with was that we both had abusive ex-spouses, so we kind of learned from them to keep things to ourselves and not share things and be self-contained. Okay, after our respective divorces we both grew as humans, but neither one of us had a good model of what transparency was like where you were accepted...so we both had to go out on a limb and say "Okay--you asked for it. Here's my warts and all" and let the other guy in on what we were truly thinking. That is SO HARD and so scary. But both of us had this great agreement: if the other person was actually honest, even if it hurt to hear it, we agreed to say "Thank you for being honest. I want some time to think about what you've said." NO MATTER WHAT. I mean, if it wasn't so hurtful that you could accept it, cool you can keep going. But if it was so hurtful that you felt anger rising or some emotional kneejerk response coming--just say that agreement and then literally take some time to consider it. I think we both found that it's hard to hear of your downfallings, and you want to defend yourself...but if you think about it, it's true. So that's when we learned to go back and say "I thought about it, and even though I'm upset to think this is the case, what you said was true." Ya know?
> 
> *Recreational Companionship*
> _Example:_ Haha--super easy! Do something fun with me! I like such a vast variety of things, it's not very hard. When we started dating we went to car shows, county fairs, concerts, museums, and camping. We read books together, and took classes together. See--just have a shared hobby/interest. We are both HUGE sci-fi geeks.
> _How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ This one he understood pretty well, but what had happened is that as he got more ill, well he literally can't walk for something like camping. He can't read long enough to read out loud without having a coughing fit. So what we've had to do is to continue "having fun" together but adapt how that looks. I mean let's be honest--going from shows, fairs, concerts and camping to staying home every day and night is a big adjustment! What we've learned though is much like sex--you don't STOP having fun due to physical ailments, you just change HOW you have the fun. We talk about it (fulfilling the conversation need) and we reach agreements/understandings.
> _How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you?_ Oh he is so creative! We can't get out as much so one thing he does is bring stuff INTO the house! We watch travel shows together. We eat unique cuisines. We cook recipes from around the world. Sometimes we camp inside in the living room with the campfire going on the TV (haha!). We also have become movie aficionados, focusing on sci-fi and drama moreso than chickflick types--neither one of us like them much anymore. We still read together, but I read out loud to him, and he comments. We take classes online. Get the idea?
> _Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Well geez just the fact that he tries at all means so much, especially because of our history. See, @sokillme I hope you hear it in pretty much everything I write--I HIGHLY regard my husband. I'm not sure I'd say he's my hero, cuz that kind of puts a fellow human being on a pedestal, but in many ways he's the kind of person I aspire to be. Of course in other ways, I love that I'm so dynamic and verbose. LOL.
> 
> *Honesty and Openness*
> _Example_: Ah. Easy one. I got a PM from someone here on TAM and I don't do PMs as a way of protecting my marriage. Anything I have to say, I'll say right out in front of everyone including my Dear Hubby. But I got this PM and I told him about it, asked him what to do, and together we worked out a way to respond. Another example, he's in the mood, I've got a cold, and normally I'd jump him but I just can NOT get there tonight--so in honesty, even though I feel like I'm letting him down, I have to be honest and tell him I'm just feeling like doodoo and take the risk that being open may hurt a little. The honesty overrides to possibility of potential hurt feelings, because it's authentic and I believe in him and trust him to deal with the truth in a mature way.
> _How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ This was tough. He's not one to talk much, and when he does, it is rarely about "what he feels" or emotions. But I know he does feel them, and I could see him getting happy or sad or angry (whatever), so it took years of SAFE SPACE for him to take the chance to try just telling me right out what he thought or felt--and that first time I could tell he was expecting to be berated! Happily that's not me! And after a few years of dipping his toe in and being safe to share his preference or make a request or just BE who he is, now he gets it. And honestly it's the exact same for me. I was so afraid to tell him what I really thought, but what I did was take a deep breath and say out loud, "Okay I'm being honest here so be nice" and then I'd share as kindly (but honestly) as I could. See we EACH had to discipline our own selves to not attack our spouse.
> _How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you? _ Good God, yes! He used to be stoic, and he's still not Mr. Sharealot, but he does answer and it's thorough and truthful. But I think even moreso both of us have learned that part of marriage is not just "living within the same space and sharing chores" but also knowing and being intimately known by someone else.
> _Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ I am not sure how to answer this one, because there is no one on the planet whom I long to know, like I long to know him. Likewise there is no one on the planet whom I want to know me, the way that I want him to see and know the real me. It's impossible but I try to not even wear "masks" with him.
> 
> *Admiration*
> _Example:_ After a long day at work, I have a co-worker who didn't do their work and then tried to dump a bunch of it on me saying it was urgent to get it done...and I have to tell them that lack of planning on their part does not mean an emergency for me. So I gather up my courage and I stand up for myself, and go straight to the co-worker (not gossiping with everyone else) and I tell him/her. Admiration would be "Wow, honey, I am so proud of you! A) you handled it really professionally and B) you really stood up for yourself! Good Job!" When someone admires me, I will follow them around like a puppy dog.
> _How did you explain it to him so he understood or did he just get it?_ This one he actually still has trouble with, but I think about 99% of it is because he doesn't talk as much as I do. It's weird--I think in his head he THINKS admiring things, but out loud he doesn't say it. So sometimes I have to remind him "Did you say your thoughts with out loud words?" (said with humor, cuz seriously--he forgets!) Of course, for my own self I have to remember that if I want to BE admired, I have to behave in an admirable way!
> _How has he grown and changed to fill those things for you? _ Some is fairly easy--for example, he says please and thank you very often. Also, when we play a game, if I win he'll say 'good game' or 'congrats' and mean it. We also play World of Warcraft, and as geeky as it sounds, we compete over who has the highest DPS, etc. So we track stats and if I beat him, he's actually pretty good about it and boosts me with encouragement. I can't usually beat him, but sometimes I do!
> _Is there anything that only he can do but that you know it means so much more because of your history?_ Yeah there is. There is pretty much one MAJOR way that I want him to admire me, and that's when he looks at me--any day, any time--I want him to look and see this woman who did the wrong thing but rather than staying in the wrong thing, made the effort to stop and do the RIGHT thing. I want him to be proud of me and glad to be married to me, and if I act like a person who is worthy of admiration then he can admire me, right?


Eureka! Thank you - AC this is exactly the type of post I was hoping for in this thread.

Anyone else have some examples?


----------



## crocus

sokillme said:


> Yes, yes, yes, the word DO in that context mean JOB or WORK.
> 
> 
> 
> At this point I have to admit the point was too subtle as 3 people didn't get it.




And that's why I think it's helpful to give men actions to do. That will trigger the feelings a woman wants. But honestly enough to say "when you do that....I feel".
I have a question...if,as a man, does the perceived resistance to a woman ,come from a place of...confidence? 

Example:
Wife: you don't make me feel special or loved
Husband: (i don't know how to do that. I will fail. And you will leave.)
Defense: don't ask for that. Look at all the stuff I did do instead. 
I ask as I'm more willing to just take responsibility for my expectations before I ever ask. This I don't have many that aren't yes or no answers.
Most people aren't this way. So for me, understanding the male ego (not a slight) could be beneficial 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jessica38

sokillme said:


> Eureka! Thank you - AC this is exactly the type of post I was hoping for in this thread.
> 
> Anyone else have some examples?


Oh! Thanks for starting this thread. Yes, I do have examples.

1. Affection. This is not a high need for my husband, so we have gone through periods where non-sexual affection simply doesn't happen. When he does hold my hand, place his hand in the small of my back while walking, touch my arm, hug me from behind while I'm making tea or cooking, I melt.

2. Conversation. I love it when he engages with me and shows interest in my day, and when we get into a good conversation that interests both of us. Sitting in awkward silence or always being the one responsible to come up with topics that will engage him bothers me. My husband does enjoy sitting in silence sometimes, and I can appreciate that, but I need engagement and good conversation sometimes too. This is actually a big deal to me.

3. Recreational Companionship. I want a partner who likes to do things with me. We have different interests, and that's fine too, but I do want us to do things for fun together besides a weekly date night. We started working out together 5xs a week in the last year and this has made a difference in our level of closeness.

4. Sex. We both are highly attracted to each other so this happens naturally about every 3 days at least. But we've been too busy in the past where this slides into a lower priority and we both felt the distance in the marriage.

5. Family Time. Nothing is more attractive to me than watching my husband play with our kids.


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## Affaircare

crocus said:


> And that's why I think it's helpful to give men actions to do. That will trigger the feelings a woman wants. But honestly enough to say "when you do that....I feel".
> I have a question...if,as a man, does the perceived resistance to a woman ,come from a place of...confidence?
> 
> Example:
> Wife: you don't make me feel special or loved
> Husband: (i don't know how to do that. I will fail. And you will leave.)
> Defense: don't ask for that. Look at all the stuff I did do instead.
> I ask as I'm more willing to just take responsibility for my expectations before I ever ask. This I don't have many that aren't yes or no answers.
> Most people aren't this way. So for me, understanding the male ego (not a slight) could be beneficial


 @crocus

I agree with you, I find it much "easier" if you will to give my Dear Hubby direct requests. Then he knows what to do. 

If I were to tell him "You don't make me feel special" or "Honey do something to make me feel loved" he'd look at me with that blank stare that puppies have. Now I don't mean he couldn't figure them out--he's as intelligent a man as I've ever met! 

But here's the trouble I find. How in the WORLD is he supposed to know what would make me feel anything at any given moment? How is he supposed to filter through whether I'm hungry, angry, lonely or tired...or if it's a hormone time of the month? Plus, ordering a pizza one day doesn't make me feel special because I had plenty of energy to make something else and we're low on money--but it DOES make me feel special another day because I'm so wiped from work I just can not life my arms to cook!!

Wouldn't it be a LOT easier for him and for me to just request what I need? "Honey I am exhausted tonight. I know money isn't super lose but oh my god if we could order pizza tonight I would feel like you care about me! Could we do it?" 

See? He set up for success--and so I am I. I feel like he heard me. I feel important enough for him to LISTEN and agree to my request. 




BTW, honestly, I don't believe anyone "makes" anyone feel anything--but I would agree that he can set the atmosphere so that it's more likely I feel XYZ, especially if he knows me. He'd be able to calculate likelihood of success (she asked this before--it went well before--chances of success algorithm is positive)!


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## aine

sokillme said:


> So I was reading a blog the other day, actually a post on the blog and the female posters said that she resented her husband because he didn't meet (or provide) for her emotional needs. That got me thinking. Do most men even know what are women's emotional needs? I am sure they are individualistic but still what are women's emotional needs? Now I think I have a good idea but maybe I don't because it's not like it is talked about plainly.
> 
> So my question are. What are your emotional needs? Does your husband understand what they are? Does he meet them? If he did how would that manifest, if he does or when he doesn't?
> 
> I think this would be a good thing for all husbands to read. Me included.


Mine do not require my H to be a rocket scientist or a lot of time either.

1. conversation
2. something to let me know he is thinking of me (not always in a sexual way). E.g flowers, a nice text message saying he is missing me, etc
3. touch, such as hug, kiss (that doesn't lead to sex).
4. Listen to me, without trying to solve things. I sometimes feel like I am not being heard. Everything is about him.

Does he meet my needs? Perhaps 50% of the time, but I have got used to it, and am pretty ok with doing my own thing. If he started paying more attention to me I would probably think something is wrong and feel overwhelmed at the change in our dynamic.


----------



## aine

jb02157 said:


> I really don't see it as a disconnect. The traditional role for men is that they have to work hard, provide and give their family a good life (as you say). I would think that is really way more than a husband should be responsible for. Then, when you have your wife come to you and tell you she's unloved...it takes the husband aback...he thinks doesn't all I've been doing show my love?? I don't do it because I feel like it, I do it for you and the family out of love. How can you say then you are unloved. If you were unloved I wouldn't give a **** and wouldn't do anything for you. I would see to it that we lived in a shack and had nothing to eat. Perhaps the disconnect is for women to see that's the way men have been trained to show their love for their wives and family. I see this with alot of women on here, mainly SAHM's.


I find this very interesting because many men show love in this way, but as I have pointed out to my H, I don't need a banker or financier, I am financially independent, therefore what would i need him for if it's just about providing for me? I have always been independent, can take care of my self, my car, the house, the kids, etc (much better than him) whatever needs to be done because I have had to due to his travelling for work. So to turn around and tell me he shows his love through his work and provision for the family is not enough. I think this is a huge mistake, surely there has to be more to a relationship than a financial arrangement? He works comes home, slouches on the sofa watching TV, etc, surely that is not enough?
The bottom line is what do I need him for if that is all he brings to the table? Just wondering what you think as a man.


----------



## sokillme

crocus said:


> Example:
> Wife: you don't make me feel special or loved
> Husband: (i don't know how to do that. I will fail. And you will leave.)
> Defense: don't ask for that. Look at all the stuff I did do instead.
> I ask as I'm more willing to just take responsibility for my expectations before I ever ask. This I don't have many that aren't yes or no answers.
> Most people aren't this way. So for me, understanding the male ego (not a slight) could be beneficial


This is a little confusing but I think you are asking this as a question right?

So here is how I see it.

What tends to happen:::

*Wife:* you don't make me feel special or loved.

*Husband thinks:* What!! I work all day at a job I hate when I really just want to run away from my responsibility a lot of the time and act like I did when I was 20. Do you see me do that for anyone else? I wouldn't do that for maybe even myself. (meaning if I wasn't doing it for you and my kids I might have gone and lived on the beach). Doesn't she see I want to do this? Why doesn't she get this? I am so frustrated and mostly hurt. I am wasting my time if she doesn't think I love her. 

*Husband:* doesn't say this. Says stuff from hurt and frustration and

_fight ensues._

Better way:::

*Wife:*We never talk much anymore and it makes me feel you don't like my company (more specific, changes from being accusatory to entreating, also plays against husbands nature to want to provide and take care of his wife, doesn't say you love isn't good enough to make me feel loved, which is kind of what the first version did.)

*Husband thinks:* ****, I got nothing to take about. Now what do I do. 

*Husband says: *That's silly I talk to you all the time.

This is a problem.. This is the kind of think marriage counseling can help with. 

But you could try..

*Wife:* I mean like telling me what you really think about stuff. How is work? Are you happy? How do you think we are doing? 

*Husband thinks:* ****, ****, she is really not happy? I don't know how to make her happy.

*Husband:* Are you saying you are not happy?

*Wife:* sometimes

*Husband:* with me?

Now here is the thing, someone has to be vulnerable and just say it. This is how good communication and good marriages work, but the being vulnerable is the ultimate test. Will your spouse honor that or use it against you. I good man will have compassion for his wife's vulnerability. 

*Wife:* No I don't think you want to talk to me because you don't love me like you used to..

*Husband thinks:* Wow I never knew she felt this way, talking to her about stuff must really be important to her.

*Husband:* I love you more then I used to. I am just tired. I didn't know you felt that way. What do you want to talk about. 

If you do that enough, meaning be vulnerable then your communication can get like this:

*Wife:*We never talk much anymore and it makes me feel you don't like my company.

*Husband thinks:* **** she is obviously looking for something but I got nothing to take about. Now what do I do. 

*Husband says:* OK but now I feel like I am put on the spot. By the way I love your company. Seriously you are the one I want to be with most.

*Wife thinks:* YES!

Next day Husband tries to remember things through his day to talk to his wife about. That night he brings them up.

*Husband:* Did you see the Mets came back and beat the Phillies last night. (I'm kidding, hopefully better then this) 


So in your case how specific are you about not feeling loved. Also there is a better way to put it then I don't feel loved. Be more specific. Also saying I don't feel loved is probably going to make a person defensive when they think they are showing love, even if that is the way you feel. It's better to say. When you do or don't do this, I feel this. Then: do you really mean to make me feel this way? If not please help me not feel this way. 

One other thing, men have no bigger ego then women. Hell listen to half the female pop stars today and the songs are all about their ego. What a lot of us are is less expressive and we don't need to be with each other. A big problem is parents don't talk to there male children about their feelings. I was practically forced by my mother to talk and explain them all the time. What do you feel? Why do you think you feel this way? It wasn't as important when men were out in the fields most of the day, but in a multimedia\social media world this is an absolute must now. Also there is this stereotype out there that boys are not capable of this, and some Mom's believe it so they don't even bother. 

That's how I see it.


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## crocus

This. This is great! Thank you.
You did explain what I was asking.
I feel...emotionally dumb.
I practice Zen Buddhism. Let's just say that I explore my own feelings (as needs) and would rarely ever ask anyone to do an action with the intent of making me feel "good".
I'm grateful when it happens, appreciate it, but it's a bonus not a need. 
It's perfectly okay if someone else does. No big deal. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it. It's the reading between the lines that is hard. I have compassion but maybe not enough empathy?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jld

I think my husband loves me unconditionally. I did not *expect* to be loved unconditionally, but I think I am. Same as he loves our kids.


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## sokillme

aine said:


> I find this very interesting because many men show love in this way, but as I have pointed out to my H, I don't need a banker or financier, I am financially independent, therefore what would i need him for if it's just about providing for me? I have always been independent, can take care of my self, my car, the house, the kids, etc (much better than him) whatever needs to be done because I have had to due to his travelling for work. So to turn around and tell me he shows his love through his work and provision for the family is not enough. I think this is a huge mistake, surely there has to be more to a relationship than a financial arrangement? He works comes home, slouches on the sofa watching TV, etc, surely that is not enough?
> The bottom line is what do I need him for if that is all he brings to the table? Just wondering what you think as a man.


Only your husband can answer that. 

Most people are not financially independent. Have you asked him to take another job where he doesn't work so hard and long? Would you still have the same financial security if he did? Would you be willing to have less if not?


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## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Which is why I started this thread, in which I asked you specific questions that you have not answered that could be helpful in.


Some of the women posted about their emotional needs and whether or not their husbands meet them.

I, and others, have posted quite a bit about the “Love Busters“ and “His Needs, Her Needs“ books. To reiterate why these books and their concepts are being talked about… because they teach a couple about identifying their emotional needs and how to meet them. It’s what guys who think the way you describe need to learn and what the need to do. Just like it’s about what women need to learn about their husbands and do.

I’m not going to list my emotional needs here. The short story is that yes, both of my husbands knew what my emotional needs were because we talked about it. And neither of them felt that they needed to do anything at all to meet them. So no I’m not going to answer your question directly because I cannot say how they met my needs, since they did not. The best I can do it to help people find resources to help themselves and their spouse in this area.



sokillme said:


> Again I was hoping this thread could be about getting a clue, not if you are your actions or not. _sigh_


You seem rather angry today. You bring up topics in discussion and then you get all bet out of shape when they are discussed. This makes it hard to have a discussion.


----------



## EleGirl

Jessica38 said:


> I think spouses ARE responsible for making their needs known to their partner, and for complaining when they aren't. I know complaining gets a bad rap but it's important to let our spouses know if they aren't hitting the mark so they can fix it. It really can be as simple as making it a habit to ask her about her day, or giving her a warm hug outside of the bedroom, or in our case, sit with me sometimes at our child's game.
> 
> I do think more spouses could learn how to ask better. I say that because I had to learn this too. I'd get so frustrated that by the time I finally did say something, it didn't come out as nicely as it should. So I've learned that a "it would mean a lot to me if you would XYZ" can go a long way.
> 
> Dazed, I do think it's ok to ask your spouse to meet your needs in the way that you'd like. I enjoy it when my husband makes time to talk to me, but I wouldn't want to spend an hour discussing football, for example.


I agree. I think a lot of people tell their spouses pretty clearly what their needs are.

But there are some people who do not care about their spouses needs, even when it's been clearly communicated. I think that this is one of the reasons that a lot of marriages fail.


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## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Some of the women posted about their emotional needs and whether or not their husbands meet them.
> 
> I, and others, have posted quite a bit about the “Love Busters“ and “His Needs, Her Needs“ books. To reiterate why these books and their concepts are being talked about… because they teach a couple about identifying their emotional needs and how to meet them. It’s what guys who think the way you describe need to learn and what the need to do. Just like it’s about what women need to learn about their husbands and do.
> 
> I’m not going to list my emotional needs here. The short story is that yes, both of my husbands knew what my emotional needs were because we talked about it. And neither of them felt that they needed to do anything at all to meet them. So no I’m not going to answer your question directly because I cannot say how they met my needs, since they did not. The best I can do it to help people find resources to help themselves and their spouse in this area.
> 
> 
> You seem rather angry today. You bring up topics in discussion and then you get all bet out of shape when they are discussed. This makes it hard to have a discussion.


I'm not angry you are exhausting.


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## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Eureka! Thank you - AC this is exactly the type of post I was hoping for in this thread.
> 
> Anyone else have some examples?


Do you only want examples of situations in which a husband meets his wife's needs? How about when they are not met?


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## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> I'm not angry you are exhausting.


Well then it's mutual. I find you to be exhausting. You are twisting everything I say. Guess I just need to avoid you. Geez


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## aine

sokillme said:


> Only your husband can answer that.
> 
> Most people are not financially independent. Have you asked him to take another job where he doesn't work so hard and long? Would you still have the same financial security if he did? Would you be willing to have less if not?


Would I be willing to have less?

Absolutely yes! In fact its him who wants the big house, the cars, the designer suits, club memberships, the fancy holidays, not me. I live in the house (sure), I don't drive a fancy car ( i pay for it myself) , I don't buy designer stuff ( I do not see the point, he buys stuff though) , I don't use the club membership at all, I go on the holidays, but a simple road trip in the car would suffice.
Simplicity is what I want, my value system is different, I would rather live simply, do charity work, support NGOs, etc, am a bit of a hippy at heart.
I resent that all of this is being done for me, because I never asked for it and don't really avail of it either much to his frustration. I appreciate his support of the kids and their education but they are his kids too not only mine. So forgive me if I do not fall at his feet in ecstatic appreciation and I think that is where the problem probably is, because he thinks I should.


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## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Do you only wan examples of situations in which a husband meets his wife's needs? How about when they are not met?


For real? Do you not read my responses to you?

Me to you about 10 post ago..



> You know what would be helpful? Examples from you of when yours husbands were or *were not* taking care of your emotional needs. What that did to you and your marriage.


You basically just blew it off in the last post and said you can't be bothered. 

Seriously what is your deal, are you just messing with me or something. Is it important that we have some examples here of when men are being jerks? Would that make it more impartial?

Again the point of the post was to talk about what emotional needs are (FOR WOMEN), met or not. So that there are some very clear understanding and examples. So that maybe men could read the thread and get some ideas, spark conversation. Basically before their marriages die. Sadly some posters, mostly you have blown up this thread. You seem to be determined to turn this into a debate. Who would want to be bothered reading the post now.


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## sokillme

aine said:


> Would I be willing to have less?
> 
> Absolutely yes! In fact its him who wants the big house, the cars, the designer suits, club memberships, the fancy holidays, not me. I live in the house (sure), I don't drive a fancy car ( i pay for it myself) , I don't buy designer stuff ( I do not see the point, he buys stuff though) , I don't use the club membership at all, I go on the holidays, but a simple road trip in the car would suffice.
> Simplicity is what I want, my value system is different, I would rather live simply, do charity work, support NGOs, etc, am a bit of a hippy at heart.
> I resent that all of this is being done for me, because I never asked for it and don't really avail of it either much to his frustration. I appreciate his support of the kids and their education but they are his kids too not only mine. So forgive me if I do not fall at his feet in ecstatic appreciation and I think that is where the problem probably is, because he thinks I should.


Have you said this? Does he get his self-worth from his job, his status, money? Was it always like this, did you or he change? Did you talk about this when you were dating?

What could he change that would make you happy. Give me an idea of how he could change maybe not earth shaking but enough so you could both be happy. Where you would get specific emotional needs met.


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## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> For real? Do you not read my responses to you?
> 
> Me to you about 10 post ago..
> 
> 
> 
> You basically just blew it off in the last post and said you can't be bothered.
> 
> Seriously what is your deal, are you just messing with me or something. Is it important that we have some examples here of when men are being jerks? Would that make it more impartial?
> 
> Again the point of the post was to talk about what emotional needs are (FOR WOMEN), met or not. So that there are some very clear understanding and examples. So that maybe men could read the thread and get some ideas, spark conversation. Basically before their marriages die. Sadly some posters, mostly you have blown up this thread. You seem to be determined to turn this into a debate. Who would want to be bothered reading the post now.


Here is why I have been reluctant to talk about it. I can basically sum it all up with one sentence. I talked about emotional needs. The reponse I got was that he could not be bothered.

For example, my son's father quit his job one day unilaterally and announced that he was going to medical school. It took him another year to get into medical school.
He told me that he did not ask me for my input because it did nto matter, he was going whether I agreed or not.

I was miffed because he, the man who said that he would never financialy support a woman decided to put me in the position of supporting him through medical school with out giving me a say in it.

I told him that under the circumstances I would be supportive. Even though he already had an MS EE and a good career as a electrical engineer, if he fled that being a doctor was what he really wanted to do with his life I was with him on that. I asked only one thing of him. I asked that he promised to put aside time very week so that we would could have a weekly date. I really needed that weekly time together. His reply what that he got angry at me and told me that he was not going to promise me anything. 

Then in all the years of medical school and residency, we went on maybe 4 'dates'. He said that he did not have time for that.

That is just one example of a clearly stated need that a husband clearly refused to meet. 


Here is another with my second husband. He was laid off in the second year of our marriage and never found another job. He really was not looking. The only thing he did with his time was to play computer games and surf the web. When we married, his had custody of his 3 young children. I had my son. I was the bread winner, did 100% of the house work, yard work, child care, shopping, cooking, handled finances, etc. He could not budge on anything.

We clearly spoke about both of our needs often. He always said that his needs were being met. He was happy. I told him that I was not happy. I was exhausted and needed him to pull his weight. For example, I asked that he take more responsibility with his own children. And, since he was home all day, that he take over the shopping and cook dinner very night. That way when I got home from work, a hot meal would be waiting. He agreed to do this.

After that he cooked about once a week. Usually he did not cook. When I asked him where dinner was, he’d say that he was not hungry. I would tell him that the children were hungry. He ignored that. So, I would go cook for me and the children. And then, once the food was cooked, he would suddenly get hungry and eat.

So, there are two examples of husbands not meeting a wife’s needs. I could write page after page of this since neither of my ex’s cared to meet my needs.

I have no examples of either husband meeting my needs after we married. And writing page upon page of how they did not meet my needs is beyond depressing. So I was trying to participate in this thread in another way.


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## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> Here is why I have been reluctant to talk about it. I can basically sum it all up with one sentence. I talked about emotional needs. The reponse I got was that he could not be bothered.
> 
> For example, my son's father quit his job one day unilaterally and announced that he was going to medical school. It took him another year to get into medical school.
> He told me that he did not ask me for my input because it did nto matter, he was going whether I agreed or not.
> 
> I was miffed because he, the man who said that he would never financialy support a woman decided to put me in the position of supporting him through medical school with out giving me a say in it.
> 
> I told him that under the circumstances I would be supportive. Even though he already had an MS EE and a good career as a electrical engineer, if he fled that being a doctor was what he really wanted to do with his life I was with him on that. I asked only one thing of him. I asked that he promised to put aside time very week so that we would could have a weekly date. I really needed that weekly time together. His reply what that he got angry at me and told me that he was not going to promise me anything.
> 
> Then in all the years of medical school and residency, we went on maybe 4 'dates'. He said that he did not have time for that.
> 
> That is just one example of a clearly stated need that a husband clearly refused to meet.
> 
> 
> Here is another with my second husband. He was laid off in the second year of our marriage and never found another job. He really was not looking. The only thing he did with his time was to play computer games and surf the web. When we married, his had custody of his 3 young children. I had my son. I was the bread winner, did 100% of the house work, yard work, child care, shopping, cooking, handled finances, etc. He could not budge on anything.
> 
> We clearly spoke about both of our needs often. He always said that his needs were being met. He was happy. I told him that I was not happy. I was exhausted and needed him to pull his weight. For example, I asked that he take more responsibility with his own children. And, since he was home all day, that he take over the shopping and cook dinner very night. That way when I got home from work, a hot meal would be waiting. He agreed to do this.
> 
> After that he cooked about once a week. Usually he did not cook. When I asked him where dinner was, he’d say that he was not hungry. I would tell him that the children were hungry. He ignored that. So, I would go cook for me and the children. And then, once the food was cooked, he would suddenly get hungry and eat.
> 
> So, there are two examples of husbands not meeting a wife’s needs. I could write page after page of this since neither of my ex’s cared to meet my needs.
> 
> I have no examples of either husband meeting my needs after we married. And writing page upon page of how they did not meet my needs is beyond depressing. So I was trying to participate in this thread in another way.


Yeah both those men wouldn't benefit from reading this thread. No offense but they sound like losers. That isn't even emotional needs that's just like marriage 101. Those things just show they are too far gone to be married to anyone.

You had no idea your second husband was capable of that or did you maybe settle a little bit because you wanted to try marriage again?


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## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> Yeah both those men wouldn't benefit from reading this thread. No offense but they sound like losers. That isn't even emotional needs that's just like marriage 101. Those things just show they are too far gone to be married to anyone.


Yep I agree. That's why I'm not married to them anymore.



sokillme said:


> You had no idea your second husband was capable of that or did you maybe settle a little bit because you wanted to try marriage again?


I had no idea he was capable of that. When we dated he was extremely attentive and loving. He was hard working. Had been raising children on his own for about 3 years.

When I met him I had no intent on ever getting married again. We dated for 2 years before getting married. I thought I knew him. He literally changed the day after we go married. And it was mostly down hill from there.

ETA: when you say that these things do not fall into the needs category.... I think they do. WE see a lot of people here saying that their spouse will not spend time with them, there is no time to date, or that their spouse will not take any responsibility in the home and with children. These are needs.


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## jld

Times my husband has neglected me have been the hardest in our marriage. 

I am a serious partner, so it is not like I would go and spend irresponsibly or have an affair or anything dramatic like that. But I will raise my voice and likely withdraw from him to some extent. 

It is up to him to seek to understand my feelings and make things right. He is responsible for this marriage, after all. That is how we see it, anyway.


----------



## aine

sokillme said:


> Have you said this? Does he get his self-worth from his job, his status, money? Was it always like this, did you or he change? Did you talk about this when you were dating?
> 
> What could he change that would make you happy. Give me an idea of how he could change maybe not earth shaking but enough so you could both be happy. Where you would get specific emotional needs met.


Yes, I have many times. He absolutely gets his self worth from his job and how well he scores at golf games, how many contracts he wins, he is very driven. He grew up dirt poor but his parents scraped enough together to educate him overseas whereas they did nothing for themselves, everything went towards educating their kids. Neither parent is educated, just to primary school level.

No, we never talked about anything of significance (values, kids, cultures, parents in law, sex, etc) when we were dating, we were young, in love, from different cultures, we were ready to overcome our families, the world, just to be together. We probably didn't know ourselves very well either. I know myself better now with the benefit of hindsight.

What could he do better?
See me, hear me, actually listen without trying to fix me or my problem.
I do not need grand gestures or a big investment in terms of time nor money.
Flowers occasionally, a nice text
Talk less about himself and his work and his problems, he is somewhat self absorbed. (Unfortunately, I have become so used to this that I get my emotional support from my friends, I rarely tell him anything much, I shut down a long time ago after years of trying to get him to hear me). I do talk but not about the things that really are on my heart. He lost that privilege and now it doesn't bother me so much anymore, it is what it is.


----------



## crocus

aine said:


> Yes, I have many times. He absolutely gets his self worth from his job and how well he scores at golf games, how many contracts he wins, he is very driven. He grew up dirt poor but his parents scraped enough together to educate him overseas whereas they did nothing for themselves, everything went towards educating their kids. Neither parent is educated, just to primary school level.
> 
> 
> 
> No, we never talked about anything of significance (values, kids, cultures, parents in law, sex, etc) when we were dating, we were young, in love, from different cultures, we were ready to overcome our families, the world, just to be together. We probably didn't know ourselves very well either. I know myself better now with the benefit of hindsight.
> 
> 
> 
> What could he do better?
> 
> See me, hear me, actually listen without trying to fix me or my problem.
> 
> I do not need grand gestures or a big investment in terms of time nor money.
> 
> Flowers occasionally, a nice text
> 
> Talk less about himself and his work and his problems, he is somewhat self absorbed. (Unfortunately, I have become so used to this that I get my emotional support from my friends, I rarely tell him anything much, I shut down a long time ago after years of trying to get him to hear me). I do talk but not about the things that really are on my heart. He lost that privilege and now it doesn't bother me so much anymore, it is what it is.


and there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. It only becomes a problem if one of you decides that a relationship "should" look differently and hold the other accountable for your view. You are wise to continue to get emotional support. (Friendship). You are probably his, and that's something kind you are giving.
It doesn't cost you anything to listen. 
The risk is that the idea of how things should look will overcome what is. It happens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tropicalbeachiwish

One of my top needs is to feel loved & cared about. I want my husband to ask about my day. It doesn’t have to be an interrogation but just a general inquiry works perfect. If I say that I have a headache or don’t feel well, following up later on the status of that makes me feel loved & cared about. If I go out with a friend to the movies or dinner, ask me how it went. Was the movie good? What’s new with your friend? Show your love by taking an interest in me; how I’m feeling or what I’m doing outside of the marriage (friends/family/work).


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## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> ETA: when you say that these things do not fall into the needs category.... I think they do. WE see a lot of people here saying that their spouse will not spend time with them, there is no time to date, or that their spouse will not take any responsibility in the home and with children. These are needs.


You and I really don't communicate well. That is not an attack on you, I just mean a lot of times I feel like when you respond to what I write we are not on the same page. 

I said it doesn't fall under the emotional needs category. What I mean by that is having a job and working to support yourself and your family is not really an emotional need it's a base need as human being. You need to work to eat. Yes it is also an emotional need but really it shouldn't even get to that point. Again life 101.


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## DustyDog

sokillme said:


> So I was reading a blog the other day, actually a post on the blog and the female posters said that she resented her husband because he didn't meet (or provide) for her emotional needs. That got me thinking. Do most men even know what are women's emotional needs? I am sure they are individualistic but still what are women's emotional needs? Now I think I have a good idea but maybe I don't because it's not like it is talked about plainly.
> 
> So my question are. What are your emotional needs? Does your husband understand what they are? Does he meet them? If he did how would that manifest, if he does or when he doesn't?
> 
> I think this would be a good thing for all husbands to read. Me included.


After two years in marital and individual counseling, and reading a few dozen books on relationships, here's my capsule summary:

* Every person has different wants and needs.

* Assuming a person's needs based on their gender is to demean them as a person - it's a form of stereotyping.

* Nobody can read anybody's mind.

* Therefore, it is up to each individual to know what they need and express it to their partners.

* Holding your partner accountable for not supporting needs you did not express is called "giving them a handicap" and strongly reduces the likelihood of a good relationship.



I've not seen it written anywhere, but what I've experience most often is women who assume that what will make me feel loved is exactly the same stuff that makes them feel loved. So, my wife, who has completely buried any thoughts of being her own person and only lives to follow whatever rules are put upon her, believes that I should think I married the best woman on the planet because she cleans the dishes if they're dirty.


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## Jessica38

jld said:


> Times my husband has neglected me have been the hardest in our marriage.


Absolutely, me too. Mine is a very driven guy in everything he does. He pursued me hard, and takes his role as a husband very seriously. He takes his role as a provider very seriously. He takes his role as a father very seriously. When those 3 things collide, he expects that I will understand when he's too busy coaching and working to spend time with me. At first, I did, but then when months went by and we were spending maybe 2 hours a week together max, and it wasn't enjoyable because we weren't connected, I started really having a hard time. I spoke up, and he told me that we have the rest of our lives....but only a few years left with the kids. So I had to speak up louder, and make it clear that I do expect my needs to be met in our marriage and to come first. 
@sokillme, that is an example of a time when my husband was not meeting my needs, and it sucked, despite him being a great dad and taking care of our family financially.


----------



## Rowan

DustyDog said:


> I've not seen it written anywhere, but what I've experience most often is women who assume that what will make me feel loved is exactly the same stuff that makes them feel loved.


I don't think that's a woman thing. Many people blindly assume that what makes them happy is what will make their partner happy. The trouble comes when someone refuses to believe that their partner actually needs what they're asking for, because they themselves do not need that thing. Then it's more a lack of empathy, immaturity, and/or narcissism thing. 

My ex-husband was that way. Whatever he needed was what I _should_ need too. If I expressed a need for something that wasn't important to him, it was because I was being "wrong" or "difficult" or "crazy" or "high maintenance" or some other commonly used phrase of complete dismissal. He considered himself a rational, intelligent, stable, normal, person. Thus, anyone who differed from him in what they thought, felt, needed, believed, experienced, etc. was therefore obviously _not_ being rational, intelligent, stable or normal.


----------



## jb02157

aine said:


> I find this very interesting because many men show love in this way, but as I have pointed out to my H, I don't need a banker or financier, I am financially independent, therefore what would i need him for if it's just about providing for me? I have always been independent, can take care of my self, my car, the house, the kids, etc (much better than him) whatever needs to be done because I have had to due to his travelling for work. So to turn around and tell me he shows his love through his work and provision for the family is not enough. I think this is a huge mistake, surely there has to be more to a relationship than a financial arrangement? He works comes home, slouches on the sofa watching TV, etc, surely that is not enough?
> The bottom line is what do I need him for if that is all he brings to the table? Just wondering what you think as a man.


My situation, unfortunately, is different than your's. My wife is not close to financial independence, therefore, finances are more part if it for me than for you. Another part of this would showing each other love, wanting to be with each other and planning things together. Since I'm stuck with providing all the finances there's not as much money for date nights and vacations as I would like but that's part of it to. My wife doesn't response to things like this so I don't know if this is right or wrong. Sometimes when I plan a nice family vacation it pissed her off so I don't do that anymore.


----------



## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> You and I really don't communicate well. That is not an attack on you, I just mean a lot of times I feel like when you respond to what I write we are not on the same page.


I did not take what you wrote as an attack on me. I was expanding on what you said and expressing that I do think it was about emotional needs.

And I agree, I don't know why, but it seems that you think I am attacking your when I try posting to you. 



sokillme said:


> I said it doesn't fall under the emotional needs category. What I mean by that is having a job and working to support yourself and your family is not really an emotional need it's a base need as human being. You need to work to eat. Yes it is also an emotional need but really it shouldn't even get to that point. Again life 101.


I get what you are saying. 

Having lived through it, I also agree with Dr. Harley that there is a large emotional need component to it. 

For a person to just unilaterally decide to not contribute financially to their household comes with a very harsh emotional statement. I read it as "I do not care about you and the children. You can either work yourself to the point of exhaustion or all live in the street. I don't care about you or the children." That is the emotional impact that his not working had on me. By the way, it had the same emotional impact on his children. I don't think that they will ever forgive him for what he did.


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## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> I did not take what you wrote as an attack on me. I was expanding on what you said and expressing that I do think it was about emotional needs.


See this is what I mean. I meant - saying we have a hard time communicating was not an attack on you. In other words I am not blaming you for our communication problems. 

I didn't mean me expanding on the post about those crappy husbands was an attack on you. It pisses me off that they were that way. It reminds me of my Mom in a way, she married some bad dudes. My Dad was the best one and he cheated. I can relate. 

But anyway is very obvious to me that we always get crossed up communication wise, maybe it is the way I write. I notice I tend to do double negative stuff.

Anyway we really have a hard time communicating.  I am happy this post is starting to become the discussion I was looking for.


----------



## sokillme

EleGirl said:


> For a person to just unilaterally decide to not contribute financially to their household comes with a very harsh emotional statement. I read it as "I do not care about you and the children. You can either work yourself to the point of exhaustion or all live in the street. I don't care about you or the children." That is the emotional impact that his not working had on me. By the way, it had the same emotional impact on his children. I don't think that they will ever forgive him for what he did.


That's interesting, I think I see this from a male point of view, under the guides of part of our role is to be a provider. To me if you are not trying to work and provide for your family you are not even a man, you are just a kid. I don't even get to the emotional aspect of it. But thinking of from a wives point of view, under the guides of traditional roles, it does seem like a slap in the face. I don't worry about my wife's financial contribution to your household. I just see that as a bonus. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate it, but I don't worry about it. I see both her and my financial responsibility being my responsibility.


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## EleGirl

sokillme said:


> That's interesting, I think I see this from a male point of view, under the guides of part of our role is to be a provider. To me if you are not trying to work and provide for your family you are not even a man, you are just a kid. I don't even get to the emotional aspect of it. But thinking of from a wives point of view, under the guides of traditional roles, it does seem like a slap in the face. I don't worry about my wife's financial contribution to your household. I just see that as a bonus. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate it, but I don't worry about it. I see both her and my financial responsibility being my responsibility.


I grew up in a traditional home.. my father worked. My mom was a SAHM who stayed home to take care of their 8 children, the home, etc. 

But I also grew up in a time when things were changing. And I had a father who told all 5 of his daughters to make sure that we were able to support ourselves because you new know how life will turn out. The upshot of it is that I do not see anything in marriage to be the default responsibly of a person based on gender. Really the only thing that is, IMHO, is having a baby. Nature dictates that only women can do that. :wink2:

I think that both spouses are responsibly for everything, but they have the option to divide up the responsibility as it fits their individual strengths. And this can change over time. The key is that BOTH people in the couple have to agree to this. No one makes unilateral decisions on whether or not they participate in the financial support, or take care of children, etc. I think marriage is moving more and more towards this. 

My grandmother told me that the way she and my grandfather made it through the depression with 5 children was that one of them always got a job when the other got laid off. So which ever one of them had the job, the other took care of the home, children, garden etc. . And if you are lucky enough for both of you to have a job at the same time, you take advantage of that. Now to me, that's how it works


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## DTO

I too found that trying to amp up the service for a wife who's lost attraction does not yield results.

Also, I feel it's inappropriate for a woman to expect treatment like a good wife when she is not attracted to her husband (and not willing to meet his needs). I am not talking about a situation where she has been wronged, but rather the everyday situation where he is no longer a priority.

Rather than piling on the attention, you need to pull back. Act in a manner that conveys your worth and the concept that she needs to earn your attention as much as you do hers.

Otherwise you are teaching her that her needs matter more and yours less.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> farsidejunky said:
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience, not only do they get angry, but it erodes respect, both from the woman, as well as the self respect of the man.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is why my wife loses respect for me when I keep looking for answers and reading books (or, worse, try to get her to read books, lol) on how to improve my marriage. She doesn't want a better marriage with an unattractive man. She wants a better marriage with an attractive man.
> 
> That's why, for me, I've got to figure out how I can become an attractive man again. If I am an attractive man (in general, not just to her) and she still isn't interested in improving the marriage, I know that I've done all I can. And, since I might actually be attractive again, I won't need to pressure her to allow me to meet her needs or for her to meet my needs. If she's not down for that, I will know that I've done everything I can on my end and can leave the marriage with integrity.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

sokillme said:


> To me if you are not trying to work and provide for your family you are not even a man, you are just a kid.


See, you and I aren't so far apart in our assertions, lol. 

Interesting that you would take issue with my observation that money and status are critical to the attraction a woman feels for a man, yet you would see a man who isn't working and providing for his family (which often fulfills both the money and the status requirements) as nothing more than "just a kid." So would you expect a woman to be attracted to someone who is "just a kid" because she loves him?

And believe me, I learned all to well just how prevalent and powerful that view of what it means to be a man when I became a SAHD. It was awesome for myself and my son, and I feel I share a bond with him that surpasses the bond many fathers report to have with their kids, it was disastrous for the rest of my life, and especially my sex/love life. And I know several other SAHDs who suffered the same fate.

Again, I assert that men are valued primarily by what they *do* and *accomplish* in the world, not so much by 'who they are.'


----------



## jld

Dazedconfuzed said:


> See, you and I aren't so far apart in our assertions, lol.
> 
> Interesting that you would take issue with my observation that money and status are critical to the attraction a woman feels for a man, yet you would see a man who isn't working and providing for his family (which often fulfills both the money and the status requirements) as nothing more than "just a kid." So would you expect a woman to be attracted to someone who is "just a kid" because she loves him?
> 
> And believe me, I learned all to well just how prevalent and powerful that view of what it means to be a man when I became a SAHD. It was awesome for myself and my son, and I feel I share a bond with him that surpasses the bond many fathers report to have with their kids, it was disastrous for the rest of my life, and especially my sex/love life. And I know several other SAHDs who suffered the same fate.
> 
> Again, I assert that *men are valued primarily by what they *do* and *accomplish* in the world, not so much by 'who they are.*'


Yeah, that makes sense. 

Would you say that women are more valued for "who they are"?


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

jld said:


> Would you say that women are more valued for "who they are"?


I would say that a woman's value/attractiveness to a man is more 'intrinsic' (for lack of a better word) in nature.

Extrinsic aspects, such as her accomplishments and social status, can certainly boost a woman's attractiveness to a man, but they aren't usually requisite for most men. The still fairly widespread appeal of women who take on the role of 'housewife' and/or 'SAHM' would certainly be an illustration of this difference, IMO.


----------



## sokillme

Dazedconfuzed said:


> See, you and I aren't so far apart in our assertions, lol.
> 
> Interesting that you would take issue with my observation that money and status are critical to the attraction a woman feels for a man, yet you would see a man who isn't working and providing for his family (which often fulfills both the money and the status requirements) as nothing more than "just a kid." So would you expect a woman to be attracted to someone who is "just a kid" because she loves him?
> 
> And believe me, I learned all to well just how prevalent and powerful that view of what it means to be a man when I became a SAHD. It was awesome for myself and my son, and I feel I share a bond with him that surpasses the bond many fathers report to have with their kids, it was disastrous for the rest of my life, and especially my sex/love life. And I know several other SAHDs who suffered the same fate.
> 
> Again, I assert that men are valued primarily by what they *do* and *accomplish* in the world, not so much by 'who they are.'


We agree on not working, but you said what is important is "Looks/Money/Status" and that is where we disagree. Show me a man who make huge bank and spends no time with wife and children, and I have more respect for the contractor who brings home his wife dinner, and coaches this kids little league. I want to be a man whose primary motivation in his life is his family, not money or status. That is a Man to me, that is where my honor is. 

As far is you go, your life isn't over. What's keeping you from moving forward your not dead. Get up and change your life. It can be done. 

Honestly man I don't know if your problem is so much where you are as much as it is that you have resigned yourself to it. You sound like you have just given up and feel sorry for yourself. No one is going to find that attractive. SAHD or not.


----------



## jld

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I would say that a woman's value/attractiveness to a man is more 'intrinsic' (for lack of a better word) in nature.
> 
> Extrinsic aspects, such as her accomplishments and social status, can certainly boost a woman's attractiveness to a man, but they aren't usually requisite for most men. The still fairly widespread appeal of women who take on the role of 'housewife' and/or 'SAHM' would certainly be an illustration of this difference, IMO.


Yes, I read something similar to this once. It said that if a man likes a woman, he just likes her. She may look at his status and how well he can provide, but men do not usually think of a woman in those terms.

I think my husband was looking for a life companion and mother of the children he wanted. I am certain he did not care what kind of work I was doing at the time, nor did he ever think of me in terms of bringing money into our home.

He did tell me once, though, that if I had not already graduated from college when we met, he would have sent me. It was important to him to be with an educated woman.

I, otoh, definitely considered what kind of life he could provide for me. It was as important a part of the equation as what kind of husband and father he would be.


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## Dazedconfuzed

sokillme said:


> Show me a man who make huge bank and spends no time with wife and children, and I have more respect for the contractor who brings home his wife dinner, and coaches this kids little league. I want to be a man whose primary motivation in his life is his family, not money or status. That is a Man to me, that is where my honor is.


While I certainly respect that, I'm not talking about A) the kind of man you want to be (not that there is anything wrong with it), nor am I B) talking about what makes for a good or honorable husband.

I'm talking about what women even self-report they find sexy and attractive. 

Women do love 'family men'. That's not a question. The question is *attraction*, such that a man who values having his partner *desire* him and treat him accordingly can accomplish being attractive.



> As far is you go, your life isn't over. What's keeping you from moving forward your not dead.


Other than working all the time and always being chronically sleep deprived, lol?

Look, I get it. I have to figure out how the hell I'm going to get myself out of the mess I'm in. There is no one who is going to save me, no one who can do it for me - I'm in this alone, and I'm the only one can help me. 

But let me tell you, actually coming up with a solid game plan that will actually put me in the position I need to be in with any kind of reasonable time frame, that takes into consideration the fact that our finances are practically non-existent (looking into possibly getting an MBA - I'm hoping I can pull a lot of student loans, one's that probably won't be paid off until after my death, lol), that doesn't conflict too much with my current job (until I have a well-paying full-time position lined up, at least), and that doesn't involve allowing my home (and my son's life) to fall into chaos, has involved a lot more than just 'getting up.' 

But I am beginning to realize that I really do need to be more independent, and that is going to take what it takes. My family may suffer some (hard to deal with, but I'm coming to terms with it), and there may be hell to pay, but things can't go on like this much longer. I'd probably be headed towards divorce either way - I gotta start making sure that I am in a position to handle things well if the worst happens.



> Honestly man I don't know if your problem is so much where you are as much as it is that you have resigned yourself to it.


Some days that is the problem, I will agree. But if I were truly resigned, I wouldn't keep trying to find answers and solutions. 



> You sound like you have just given up and feel sorry for yourself. No one is going to find that attractive. SAHD or not.


And that is the truth. I know for a fact (unfortunately) that my feeling sorry for myself is about the least attractive thing I can do. 

While I still sometimes get stuck in feeling sorry for myself (like, lying awake in the middle of the night, lol), I do my damnedest to not ever let it show. I've become way more stoic through this process, which is good. I'm nowhere near as emotional in life as I was when this started...


----------



## jld

@Dazedconfuzed

Please do not get yourself in debt for an MBA. It may not pay off.

And if you and your wife are over your heads in debt now, please consider downsizing in some way. Life is already stressful enough without financial pressure.

I do not think it is healthy to try to appear stoic, or really "appear" anything. Being yourself and being honest about your struggles, while taking constructive steps to improve your situation, is much healthier.

I get the sense that you are in despair, and I just do not see any reason to be. Is it the lack of sex that is causing this?

Maybe I should post this over on your thread . . .


----------



## Dazedconfuzed

jld said:


> @Dazedconfuzed
> 
> Please do not get yourself in debt for an MBA. It may not pay off.
> 
> And if you and your wife are over your heads in debt now, please consider downsizing in some way. Life is already stressful enough without financial pressure.
> 
> I do not think it is healthy to try to appear stoic, or really "appear" anything. Being yourself and being honest about your struggles, while taking constructive steps to improve your situation, is much healthier.
> 
> I get the sense that you are in despair, and I just do not see any reason to be. Is it the lack of sex that is causing this?
> 
> Maybe I should post this over on your thread . . .


Yep, this is definitely becoming a TJ. When I get a chance, I will copy this and respond over there. Thanks...


----------



## jld

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Yep, this is definitely becoming a TJ. When I get a chance, I will copy this and respond over there. Thanks...


 I posted it on your thread earlier.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Affaircare said:


> Independent Behavior-This one often confuses people, but here's the gist of it: when you get married, you VOLUNTEER to be two people now, not just alone by yourself. That means that whenever one spouse makes a decision or choice, it affect the other spouse! So a guy can't go around acting like a "single guy" anymore because he's not single! And a gal can't just take off for GNO because she's not single anymore! Even if there aren't kids, the two are one "entity" now--and what one chooses will have an impact on the other. So it's not to say "I have to merge my inner self with another" (that is co-dependence) but rather "If I choose to go do ___ it will mean ___ for my spouse." There is always another person to consider! It's the cost/benefit of being married: you aren't alone, but the cost is that you aren't alone


 Love your bringing up the Love Busters side of this... I did a thread on this a while back.. trying to explain this one right here...it's also very important to me.. when I married, my intention, my deep desire was to be in UNION with my man.. I want us to go forth as a team.. as a pair.. it matters how he feels.. it matters how I feel...it's about the two becoming one... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-t...vior-attitude-how-can-hurt-our-marriages.html

I can see the need for all the "Emotional Needs" listed in His Needs/ Her Needs also..... 

1. *Admiration*
2. *Affection*
3. *Conversation*
4. *Domestic support*
5. *Family commitment*
6.* Financial support*
7. *Honesty and openness*
8. *Physical attractiveness*
9. *Recreational companionship*
10. *Sexual fulfillment*

They are all important to me.. I need sexual fulfillment, lots of affection, his listening to me.. our discussions, they soothe me, they brighten my day that I have someone to share my life with, Honesty and openness, another way of saying a "willing transparency" ...it would bother me a great deal if I was married to someone who didn't care to share his day with me.. or what is happening in his life.. if he was very privacy prone... 

I want to share and give of myself.. I want the same in return...


----------



## Sunny3

sokillme said:


> So I was reading a blog the other day, actually a post on the blog and the female posters said that she resented her husband because he didn't meet (or provide) for her emotional needs. That got me thinking. Do most men even know what are women's emotional needs? I am sure they are individualistic but still what are women's emotional needs? Now I think I have a good idea but maybe I don't because it's not like it is talked about plainly.
> 
> So my question are. What are your emotional needs? Does your husband understand what they are? Does he meet them? If he did how would that manifest, if he does or when he doesn't?
> 
> I think this would be a good thing for all husbands to read. Me included.


It would be nice if he would care about my well being. Meaning I am unwell, he probably doesn't care enough to know what's even wrong. It would be nice to not be treated as worthless being as I bust my hump all the while not feeling well. I don't need too much affection but a hug here and there would be nice! I find happiness in myself! If you are married and want answers ask her! Ask her what interests her and find her light! Share yours too! Make her feel secure! If you do all of those things and still have problems then re-evaluate what you want and where to go from there! It doesn't seem like you do have issues though, it seems that you are just observing! Good luck!

Sent from my SM-J320R4 using Tapatalk


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## Faithful Wife

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I would say that a woman's value/attractiveness to a man is more 'intrinsic' (for lack of a better word) in nature.
> 
> Extrinsic aspects, such as her accomplishments and social status, can certainly boost a woman's attractiveness to a man, but they aren't usually requisite for most men. The still fairly widespread appeal of women who take on the role of 'housewife' and/or 'SAHM' would certainly be an illustration of this difference, IMO.


In my age bracket, there's a lot more to this. Most men my age are divorced and if they partner with someone again they typically aren't going to be immediately attracted to a woman who literally needs his financial support. They are looking for women who are financially stable on their own. That doesn't mean a man may not eventually still provide in various ways to a new partner, but if a woman is coming out of the gate on early dates making it clear that she can't support herself and needs a man to do it (whether she has kids or not), I don't know any man out there who would be interested in that.

In my recent dating experience, I've received a lot of extra attention and have caused extra attraction for me based on my generally "having my sh*t together" and being able to do for myself anything I want or need to do (with enough money, anything is possible...not saying I am wealthy just that I can afford to hire out anything I can't do myself  ).

Also my intelligence, which is largely why I hold a respectable professional job, is highly attractive to the type of guys in my dating pool.

All the men I've dated have also been physically attracted to me....but once they also find out that I am not looking for someone to support my carefree lifestyle, but rather, someone who can join me in it, they are far more attracted to me.

Now it is true that a man might hit it and quit it with a physically attractive but financially drained and socially "low class" woman...thereby this seems to indicate his "attraction" to her.

But that is not the type of attraction that builds a relationship and most guys know this. The same is true that a woman might hit it with some hot, young cabana boy, yet she would never bring him home to meet her family. Nor even call him back, in some cases.


----------



## farsidejunky

Faithful Wife said:


> In my age bracket, there's a lot more to this. Most men my age are divorced and if they partner with someone again they typically aren't going to be immediately attracted to a woman who literally needs his financial support. They are looking for women who are financially stable on their own. That doesn't mean a man may not eventually still provide in various ways to a new partner, but if a woman is coming out of the gate on early dates making it clear that she can't support herself and needs a man to do it (whether she has kids or not), I don't know any man out there who would be interested in that.
> 
> In my recent dating experience, I've received a lot of extra attention and have caused extra attraction for me based on my generally "having my sh*t together" and being able to do for myself anything I want or need to do (with enough money, anything is possible...not saying I am wealthy just that I can afford to hire out anything I can't do myself  ).
> 
> Also my intelligence, which is largely why I hold a respectable professional job, is highly attractive to the type of guys in my dating pool.
> 
> All the men I've dated have also been physically attracted to me....but once they also find out that I am not looking for someone to support my carefree lifestyle, but rather, someone who can join me in it, they are far more attracted to me.
> 
> Now it is true that a man might hit it and quit it with a physically attractive but financially drained and socially "low class" woman...thereby this seems to indicate his "attraction" to her.
> 
> But that is not the type of attraction that builds a relationship and most guys know this. The same is true that a woman might hit it with some hot, young cabana boy, yet she would never bring him home to meet her family. Nor even call him back, in some cases.


FW:

You painted a bit of a bleak picture of the female dating pool in your age bracket. Is it really that bad?


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## Faithful Wife

farsidejunky said:


> FW:
> 
> You painted a bit of a bleak picture of the female dating pool in your age bracket. Is it really that bad?


I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't really comment about other women in my age bracket, was just saying that men in my dating pool are attracted to me based on my position in life and my intelligence, not just my appearance. I was not saying there are few women like me.


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## jld

New blog post by the man I quoted earlier on this thread, talking about how a man can get caught up in being right instead trying to understand and be sensitive to the feelings of his wife:

_It will never matter who makes the best or most-convincing or most-skilled argument.

That’s NOT why she’s leaving us.

You couldn’t out-debate her because Correct vs. Incorrect never even came into play.

It’s about this really important secret, and nothing else:

Something you did, said, or are actively doing, HURT her or is HURTING her.

Like if you were throwing rocks at her face, or striking her with a belt. Like if you were calling her vile names and telling her she was ugly and that you didn’t love her anymore.

Something you’re doing or saying is causing actual pain.

And the scary part is that you don’t know. We don’t know because it would never hurt us. Because it would never hurt us, we act like she’s weak. We act like her response is crazy or illogical or out of line with reality.

Then when she tells us about it, we don’t apologize and stop the hurtful behavior like we would if we were accidentally hitting her with rocks or belts.

Moreover, we pile on more hurt in the form of us puffing our chests in all of our “correctness,” defending our behavior, and implying or saying outright that she’s stupid or mentally unstable or a bad or mean person for feeling all of these illogical things on account of our perfectly reasonable and justifiable actions.

…

First, we inflict pain without realizing it.

Second, we are informed of the pain we cause, and we wave our hands dismissively and tell her she’s full of ****.

Third, we get angry when she won’t let it go, and flip it around into a “This is actually YOUR fault for being such a miserable and ungrateful ***** all the time” discussion.

Fourth, we stay angry that she keeps bringing it up and “nagging” us about something we think we’re “right” about, and make everything about us, and how she’s the unfair person ruining the marriage.

Don’t you see it?

I’m not blaming anyone for this. These aren’t the behaviors of evil people. These are the behaviors of two people who emotionally harm one another over the course of five to 10 years with little to no awareness of it.

We accidentally cut and bruise her with our stones and belts without ever realizing we’re striking her.

Then, not only do we NOT apologize for it, or attempt to change the behavior, but we often defiantly blame everything on her, and tell her that nothing is ever going to change because she’s got this whole thing wrong.

And if you keep saying it enough times, maybe you believe she’ll figure it out too.

Ironically, she feels exactly the same, right up until she can’t take the hurt anymore.

She might be able to handle the metaphorical stones and belt lashes. Because the years have scarred and hardened her.

But she’s sure as hell not going to take the blame for it anymore, nor dedicate the rest of her life to an intimate partnership that rewards her with: “Why don’t you cry about it, you nagging *****? And by the way, I love you, honey. Wanna have sex later?”

…

Neither person meant to hurt the other. It just happens, and most of these guys have no idea how it’s perceived by his wife or girlfriend. Not until it’s too late. Not until she’s heartbroken and gone.

It’s one person being hurt and the other person saying through their actions, “I don’t care about the same things you care about. Also, I don’t even care THAT you care. Your stuff doesn’t matter to me.”

Because THAT ends marriages. Thousands of times per day._


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## jld

Focusing in on this:

*But she’s sure as hell not going to take the blame for it anymore, nor dedicate the rest of her life to an intimate partnership that rewards her with: “Why don’t you cry about it, you nagging *****? And by the way, I love you, honey. Wanna have sex later?”*

When a wife does not want sex, it can be helpful for a man to be honest with himself about how he has treated her, rather than becoming defensive and perhaps even aggressive about how she "owes him" for whatever reason.


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## FeministInPink

@jld Can you share the link for this blog? It's good stuff.



jld said:


> New blog post by the man I quoted earlier on this thread, talking about how a man can get caught up in being right instead trying to understand and be sensitive to the feelings of his wife:
> 
> _It will never matter who makes the best or most-convincing or most-skilled argument.
> 
> That’s NOT why she’s leaving us.
> 
> You couldn’t out-debate her because Correct vs. Incorrect never even came into play.
> 
> It’s about this really important secret, and nothing else:
> 
> Something you did, said, or are actively doing, HURT her or is HURTING her.
> 
> Like if you were throwing rocks at her face, or striking her with a belt. Like if you were calling her vile names and telling her she was ugly and that you didn’t love her anymore.
> 
> Something you’re doing or saying is causing actual pain.
> 
> And the scary part is that you don’t know. We don’t know because it would never hurt us. Because it would never hurt us, we act like she’s weak. We act like her response is crazy or illogical or out of line with reality.
> 
> Then when she tells us about it, we don’t apologize and stop the hurtful behavior like we would if we were accidentally hitting her with rocks or belts.
> 
> Moreover, we pile on more hurt in the form of us puffing our chests in all of our “correctness,” defending our behavior, and implying or saying outright that she’s stupid or mentally unstable or a bad or mean person for feeling all of these illogical things on account of our perfectly reasonable and justifiable actions.
> 
> …
> 
> First, we inflict pain without realizing it.
> 
> Second, we are informed of the pain we cause, and we wave our hands dismissively and tell her she’s full of ****.
> 
> Third, we get angry when she won’t let it go, and flip it around into a “This is actually YOUR fault for being such a miserable and ungrateful ***** all the time” discussion.
> 
> Fourth, we stay angry that she keeps bringing it up and “nagging” us about something we think we’re “right” about, and make everything about us, and how she’s the unfair person ruining the marriage.
> 
> Don’t you see it?
> 
> I’m not blaming anyone for this. These aren’t the behaviors of evil people. These are the behaviors of two people who emotionally harm one another over the course of five to 10 years with little to no awareness of it.
> 
> We accidentally cut and bruise her with our stones and belts without ever realizing we’re striking her.
> 
> Then, not only do we NOT apologize for it, or attempt to change the behavior, but we often defiantly blame everything on her, and tell her that nothing is ever going to change because she’s got this whole thing wrong.
> 
> And if you keep saying it enough times, maybe you believe she’ll figure it out too.
> 
> Ironically, she feels exactly the same, right up until she can’t take the hurt anymore.
> 
> She might be able to handle the metaphorical stones and belt lashes. Because the years have scarred and hardened her.
> 
> But she’s sure as hell not going to take the blame for it anymore, nor dedicate the rest of her life to an intimate partnership that rewards her with: “Why don’t you cry about it, you nagging *****? And by the way, I love you, honey. Wanna have sex later?”
> 
> …
> 
> Neither person meant to hurt the other. It just happens, and most of these guys have no idea how it’s perceived by his wife or girlfriend. Not until it’s too late. Not until she’s heartbroken and gone.
> 
> It’s one person being hurt and the other person saying through their actions, “I don’t care about the same things you care about. Also, I don’t even care THAT you care. Your stuff doesn’t matter to me.”
> 
> Because THAT ends marriages. Thousands of times per day._


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## jld

FeministInPink said:


> @jld Can you share the link for this blog? It's good stuff.


My pleasure, FIP:

https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2017/04/26/the-cancer-of-misunderstanding/#comments


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## FeministInPink

jld said:


> My pleasure, FIP:
> 
> https://mustbethistalltoride.com/2017/04/26/the-cancer-of-misunderstanding/#comments


Oh, I love this guy's blog! I don't subscribe or read super regularly--I just don't have the time--but I have cited some of his posts on TAM from time to time. Really good stuff. He clearly learned from his mistakes the first time around.


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