# The end or the beginning?



## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Hi everyone,

I will do my best to make this short. I'm a young man in my early 20's who met a wonderful girl 6 years ago. We got married 3 years after dating. She is 6 years older then me. We have no kids although we were both planning on having some after we bought a house. 

2 years down the road, our marriage started to fall flat. We started losing interest in each other and we both started to get more selfish in our own hobbies. We stopped putting each others needs first. Eventually I stopped initiating date nights and she stopped initiating sex. I became "betaized" and she started falling out of love. We talked about this and decided to go ahead, try and work it out, then we bought a house.

We got even busier with household chores and spent less and less time with each other. For the record I actually did most of the cleaning and cooking around the place. Never complained either. I love cooking and I am kind of a neat freak! Anyways, then one day, 6 months after we bought the house, we got in an argument (over nothing really) and she randomly walks out and doesn't come back. She said she was going to stay at a friends. She said she needed time to think and I respected her wishes. I found out about the primer and read it thoroughly. I realized a lot of mistakes I made during the relationship, but I also knew and still know I can fix this and change my poor behavior, as I have done successfully in the past. I took counselling, talked to a lot of people and started to work on myself. So far so good!

Then she started sending me these long letters by e-mail. She said all the things that made her unhappy in the relationship and I replied with my own thoughts. She said I never listened to her, I never remembered things and she didn't feel like she was part of my life. Typical stuff and I admit to doing all of that, but still, I never understood why she was so sensitive about everything all of the time, and we never actually sat down for more then 15 minutes to try and work on our issues. It was like I was always fishing in the dark with her needs. I never understood them and so I was never able to act on them accordingly. We both took the relationship for granted. We both admitted to becoming roommates and we both admitted to being unhappy. Anyways, we agreed to write a separation agreement. I saw my lawyer, she saw hers...but I probed to meet her to get it signed and she just kept ignoring me. 

2 months went by and this is where the pain really started. Things somewhat cooled off and she finally agreed to meet me for coffee. I learned to keep myself busy, not to be clingy, needy and follow the MAP as best as I could. She said she had 2 more letters to write me before meeting me. I said okay, no problem.
In the first letter she revealed that she was sexually abused as a child, was raped by a boyfriend and ended up having an abortion. Yeah. Wow. She said she never felt like she could trust me enough to tell me to my face. That hurt a lot. My poor baby. If only I knew, I would have known to be more sensitive. I said some really stupid **** and made some very bad jokes a long time ago. It sounds manipulative to say I wouldn't have said some things if I knew what she went through, but it's true. I'm a good person and always have thrived to be much more then who I am. I had no idea she had been through such horror and yet my life has been pretty much handed to me on a silver spoon. 

The next letter was one I wish she didn't send. She admitted to cheating on me, with a few guys too. What hurt the most, was that she talked about how perfect they were, and these traits they had. Alpha traits (I get it now). But I am still devastated. I never thought she would cheat on me. Seriously. We even had a talk before we bought the house. I told her; if you fall out of love it me please end it first before cheating on me. And she asked the same of me. To top it off she is very religious and so when she told me she cheated it caught me by such complete surprise, that now, I feel like I am actually traumatized and will never get over this. Sure I am a young guy and I'll make due in time, but nobody in my entire life has taken my trust, my unconditional, loving and true trust, and breached it, so selfishly. The whole 2 months she has been gone I have kept my ring on and been faithful. My hearts been broken a few times before, but not like this. I even told friends on several occasions that she would never do that to me. I thought she was much more then that. She said she didn't technically cheat because we wrote the separation agreement, but she never signed it!! I feel walked on. 

Of course all emotions ran through my system. Fear, anger, hatred. (Man I want to kill those guys!) But even stronger was the sadness and confusion I felt. What the heck did those guys do to get her to open up like that? In 6 years it was really a struggle with her to get her to open up and be intimate, and here I find out she did it effortlessly with a few dudes in a few weeks? I wish I knew their tricks. I wish I was them. I wish I was taller, I wish I wasn't such a nice guy, and so forth. It was and still is a huge blow to my self-esteem and self-worth. I talked to my best friend about it and fortunately I have been very lucky to have a great support system at home. 

Despite my rage, I calmly collected myself and set out conditions to stay married and she made her own conditions. Although I want to forgive her, I don't think I will ever be able to and also be able to fully trust her again....but I married her for better or worse, and I am not one to give up on anything. 

She has finally come back home and things seem to actually be going well. We are rebuilding the friendship, trust and praying together and communicating transparently when possible. We started doing more things together, laughing more and for the most part, up until tonight, I felt like if we just keep at it, just maybe things will get better. 

She came back on Saturday, and now it is Sunday, but towards the end of the night, I already feel like she isn't taking my conditions seriously, although I am doing my best to meet hers. I feel like I am doing all of the work and she won't a finger unless she has to. It's all about her it seems. She even had the balls to say she is scared that I might leave her down the road.... yet she is the one who left me! 

As you can see many thoughts race through my mind, and although I know there are many fish in the sea, I love this woman dearly. What breaks my heart is that I fear that she is not giving me another chance, not because she loves another, but because she doesn't love herself, and I am realizing there is nothing I can do to fix that. 

One of my conditions is that we start kissing again. I told her it's okay that we take it slow, but tonight right before bed I went in for one and she pulled away. I just wanted a two second peck, not a deep french kiss! She says she is numb and doesn't feel anything. I don't know what to do. Our "agreement" was to try and fix this for the next 5 months and if it doesn't work we would complete the separation agreement and go for divorce. I want to seek counselling together yet she is hesitant. I think with a little more balls I can make it happen. 

The questions I have for now are these:

1) Why do I feel like we shouldn't have to start over from scratch again? (She says she wants to be friends again first). I feel like time is too precious.

2) Why am I the one who seems to be struggling to gain her trust , when she is the one who breached mine? How can I turn these tables around? I am doing my best to be more alpha, but I am really struggling. 

3) Am I being a ***** (cat) here? How can I grow a pair???!
a. How can I take charge without being "invasive"? I find myself either tiptoeing or being too direct. She says she hates pressure. 
b. How can I make her take my conditions seriously? 
c. And if she doesn't want to (as displayed by her actions), is 5 more months of hell worth it? 

4) Would you have taken back a cheater? 

5) It's been over 3 months now that she says she is unsure of how she feels. I am pretty sure she knows, but doesn't have the balls to tell me. What can I say or do to get her to be honest with me? 

6) What would you do in my situation? 

I don't know if she came back because she wants to work at it, or because her friend isn't letting her stay at her place anymore. I feel like I am in a dark tunnel and she has the flashlight, but she won't give it to me. 

This is hands down the most difficult thing I have ever went through in my life. I know there is a long road ahead. I appreciate all feedback. Thank you for reading my post.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Why in the world would you want this woman back?

She just spent 2 months wh0ring around while blaming you for doing it.

Now she comes back and acts like you have to do all the work and fix yourself?

I guess she feels she did nothing wrong in the M that needs to be addressed.

You want to know why those other guys so quickly got what you felt you had to struggle to receive?

Because undoubtedly they were they type of guys who would never tolerate her sh*t and she was the one pursuing them and trying to win them over with easy sex.

None of these guys must have any interest in her other than using her for sex, so now she has come back to old reliable Plan B...that would be you.

My friend, you need to get away from this woman...you have no kids, so RUN.

She has no respect or care for you at all, and yet here you are desperately clinging to whatever scraps she throws your way.

You deserve better.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

pragmaster said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I will do my best to make this short. I'm a young man in my early 20's who met a wonderful girl 6 years ago. We got married 3 years after dating. She is 6 years older then me. We have no kids although we were both planning on having some after we bought a house.
> 
> ...


Oh boy...



pragmaster said:


> The questions I have for now are these:
> 
> 1) Why do I feel like we shouldn't have to start over from scratch again? (She says she wants to be friends again first). I feel like time is too precious.


She doesn't want to "start over" at all, at least not w/ you. She wants you to either pay or help to pay the bills while she continues to run around on you.



pragmaster said:


> 2) Why am I the one who seems to be struggling to gain her trust , when she is the one who breached mine? How can I turn these tables around? I am doing my best to be more alpha, but I am really struggling.


Yeah, you've got it all backwards. She's been cheating on you and she has conditions for you? You have to work toward rebuilding her trust? What the f*ck, man...?!?



pragmaster said:


> 3) Am I being a ***** (cat) here?


Uhhh... Yes.



pragmaster said:


> How can I grow a pair???!


Well, you can start by doing pretty much the opposite of what you've been doing. You mentioned above that you'd read MMSLP, correct? What about NMMNG?



pragmaster said:


> a. How can I take charge without being "invasive"? I find myself either tiptoeing or being too direct. She says she hates pressure.


You just tell her what you will and won't tolerate in terms of her inability or unwillingness to be transparent, recommit to your marriage, etc and then you back up the words w/ action.

A boundary that goes unenforced is just _waiting_ to be disrespected.



pragmaster said:


> b. How can I make her take my conditions seriously?


Divorce papers would probably do a pretty good job of this. Where do you live? Does infidelity matter (w/ respect to divorce, division of assets, etc) in your state? Either way, talk to a lawyer.



pragmaster said:


> c. And if she doesn't want to (as displayed by her actions), is 5 more months of hell worth it?


No. Hell, it's not worth even _five more *minutes*_ of her bullsh*t.



pragmaster said:


> 4) Would you have taken back a cheater?


Not this one. If she'd shown remorse and a willingness to truly reconcile, that'd be one thing... but she's not. At all.



pragmaster said:


> 5) It's been over 3 months now that she says she is unsure of how she feels. I am pretty sure she knows, but doesn't have the balls to tell me.


Correct. That and/or she'd biding her time.



pragmaster said:


> What can I say or do to get her to be honest with me?


I tend to think that she's being pretty honest w/ you... it's just that you're not really listening. For example, the whole "start over" line is pretty telling; she wants to "start over" alright, but probably w/ someone else.

You're letting _what you *think* you know about her_ plus _what you *hope* are her actual intentions_ color the way in which you translate what she's doing and saying to you.

Stop being a sucker. Read everything that you've typed above... if a buddy were in the same spot that you're currently in, and related all of ^that to you, what would you tell him to do?

Here's my advice...

*No kids?!? Run!!! GTFO!!!*

And, since it would appear that sex isn't even on the table at the moment, should that change at all in the near future, you should be *HIGHLY* suspicious... Seriously, no more unprotected sex w/ this woman, and if she does wind up pregnant, insist on a paternity test before signing _anything_.



pragmaster said:


> 6) What would you do in my situation?


I'd do what I did w/ my own FWW (2 EA's)... I'd tell her that the decision to stay or go is her own (and that's only if you extend the courtesy of deciding to her), but if she chooses to stay, this, this, and this are what will and won't happen. If she can't abide, then she's gone. Period.

If, however, Mrs. Gus had engaged in a PA, it's very likely that the "stay" option would not have even been available to her, and she'd now be the ex-Mrs. Gus.



pragmaster said:


> This is hands down the most difficult thing I have ever went through in my life. I know there is a long road ahead. I appreciate all feedback. Thank you for reading my post.


It's rough man, that's for sure. Stay strong, keep your chin up, and don't waver on your principles.


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## LostAndContent (Feb 22, 2013)

The conditions you layed out to her were "What I need from you if we are going to stay married." and you explained them to her in those terms.

If she isn't meeting those conditions then you have to begin divorce proceedings. Otherwise she's going to continue walking all over you and making this all about how you failed her. 

Beginning divorce proceedings is the only thing that might wake her up to the fact that she might lose you. 

But really I agree with the above, and suggest you go ahead with the divorce proceedings even if she wakes up. Why would you want to be with this woman? This is an abusive relationship dude. Don't be the guy who puts up with being shat on so a girl will hang around and continue to mistreat you.

But again, if you want her to take your conditions seriously, you need to actually carry through on your threat. Divorce isn't just a button that happens suddenly. It takes a while, she'll have time to turn herself around if she really wants to.


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## Kylie84 (May 4, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> Why in the world would you want this woman back?
> 
> She just spent 2 months wh0ring around while blaming you for doing it.
> 
> ...


:iagree: 
Hun if she says she is 'numb' when you kiss her then you need to get out. She is most likely numb because she doesn't have any sexual feelings towards you anymore. 
She can use the sexual assault card in regards to that but think about it.... I bet she wasn't 'numb' when she was banging those other guys!
She needs counseling asap to sort her head out...but you re a young man and you don't need this. 
Move on.


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## LostAndContent (Feb 22, 2013)

But again. No Kids, get out now. It'll hurt, but you'll eventually heal and be able to move onto a relationship where mutual respect is possible. As is you'll always be the one who begged his wife to stay with him. That will be your place in this relationship for the rest of your time together. Just end it now and take what you've learned from reading into your next relationship.


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## Kylie84 (May 4, 2012)

:allhail:

Gus you always say the right thing :smthumbup:


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Don't even bother. Divorce, sell the house, forget her and move on. Learn the lessons available about yourself, so you can do better next time.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Kylie84 said:


> :allhail:
> 
> Gus you always say the right thing :smthumbup:


LOL, thanks. I do try.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with the others. You have no children with her. She cheated on you with ease, praised the other men to you and now will not even kiss you.

Oh hell no. You sound like a good catch. You can do a lot better than this.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

She has been dating and having sex with other men because she is no longer in the marriage. She has friend zoned you, and will not kiss you much less have sex with you because she has found another man that she is trying to be loyal to. You are nothing more to her than the perfect roommate that does all the cooking and cleaning while also helping pay the bills. You cannot make this marriage work alone. It takes two to make a marriage and she has moved on. She is a selfish, unremorseful, cake eating cheater. You are in love with the memory of her, but that person is no longer there. Please move on and do not look back. With no children, it will never be a better time to end this marriage and move on.

BTW, stop letting her blame you for her cheating. Cheaters always set a standard of perfection for their spouse that they do not apply to themselves. They do this because as a human they know that you cannot be perfect, thus they will always have an excuse for why it is your fault. Flip their own standard and apply it to them and you will see that they will fail far more than you did because the truth is you have been the better spouse. Bottom line is that there is nothing that you could have done to stop her from cheating because she wanted to cheat. She is not good wife material. Move and find someone that is. There is someone out there that would thank God everyday for having made you their husband. The sooner that you start looking for this person, the sooner that you will find them. Good luck and be well.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Two things that you should know:

First is that this marriage is OVER! She clearly does not want to be with you and its all been one big disrespectful lie. She is not a good person (whatever happened in her past should have made her want to be more honest with you, if anything). She walked out and did what she wanted and blamed you for it. And you took it (especially when you let her come back), which only made her more sure that she didn't want you.

Secondly, even if it wasn't over, it SHOULD BE OVER!.. For your own well being, not only should you not have her back, but more importantly, you should not want to have her back - this "I love her and want her back if only she would ..." business is not only wrong but destructive to you. Get your self-respect back and work on not wanting her to come back (not just not letting her come back) to make yourself a better person.

There should be no question with regard to what you have to do next (immediately):

Secure your finances, attorney up and protect yourself.
Kick her out and expose what she has done to those that matter.
Work on your self - physically (gym, new clothes etc) and mentally (counselling).


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Get both of you tested for STDs pronto. Don't have sex with her. 

She did not abide by "for better or for worse." Why does that responsibility only fall on your shoulders? She's just willingly risked your health! Wake up! This is not the behavior of a woman who loves you.


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## syhoybenden (Feb 21, 2013)

You're in love with who you thought she was.

She is not that person.

That person does not exist.

You are free to move on. Indeed, I would urge it.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

You already have a lawyer? Perfect. See him and begin divorce proceedings.

The end of your marriage. But the beginning of your freedom.

Good luck to you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dogman (Jul 24, 2012)

You know.....even in your version of the story of your relationship you come off soooo beta that she can't possibly be attracted to you.

I can't read anymore stories of guys who can't stand up....I'm out. I can't take it anymore. I don't want to be harsh so I'll log off.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Having been here awhile, I would bet money she was cheating on you before the separation. In any event she was able to do things with otoher men that she can't stomach doing with you.

My guess is that the affair partner she left you for was only in it for sex. He had no intention of keeping her but she was in love. That also explains her actions now .. She is not having sex or even a kiss with you because she is in love and being faithful to someone else.

Did she used to go out alone with her friends? Does she come home directly from work? Does she leave her phone laying around where you can use it or look at?

Have you checked her phone, text and email records for he past year and the present?

After what she has done, she should be on you like white on rice yet she isn't. That's only because she is saving it for so one else.

Does she get naked in front of you?


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

"Despite my rage, I calmly collected myself and set out conditions to stay married and she made her own conditions. Although I want to forgive her, I don't think I will ever be able to and also be able to fully trust her again....but I married her for better or worse, and I am not one to give up on anything."

What were these conditions? For both of you? 

No. You will never ever be able to trust her again. She banged multiple dudes as a married woman over a span of a couple of months (that you know of. Tips and icebergs etc etc)

Whether it's next week next year or 10 years EVERY TIME she is 10 minutes late, you will be wondering if she is stuck on the interstate, or being used as an interstate. You want to live like that? Or maybe meet one of the millions of nice, attractive, faithful women that are available?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

You have no kids and she cheated with multiple guys and she has no remorse and expects you to fix it. 

Run! GTFO as fast as you can.

Also go get tested for stds. There is no telling what she has exposed you to. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

You guys are right.

But don't people fall in love again? Am I being delusional in thinking this will happen again one day? 

Once her love for me is gone, is it gone forever? 

I certainly agree I can do better. I just don't know why part of me wants to be with her. Maybe I feel bad? I don't know...

Why am I such a forgiving person? I sincerely believe people make mistakes. Is polyamoury a real thing? 

Lastly, I used to smoke pot. One of the conditions she had was that I quit. Seemed fair? (Although I enjoyed it)

Thanks again everyone.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Falling on someone's c*ck is not a mistake. Its well thought out in advance, planned and carried out.

Did she tell you if they were one night stands or dates. She suren managed to play the field in such a short time. How long was she away from you before she decided to become the town bicycle?

I don't think you know her at all except she does have some wild excuses.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

You smoking pot did not cause her to run away and start sleeping with every guy she met. 

You stop smoking pot, she will stop sleeping around and return home to you? Come on.

Hypothetical. You buy a new TV. Spend a lot of time researching brands, then you finally commit to bringing one home. After a few weeks, all you get is static. What do you do?

You return it to the store. 

Same thing here. She doesn't work right. Return her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

look PM, 
you seriously need to grow up and realize that the person you thought you married is not the person standing before you, yeah we all make mistakes and yeah we are all human but this woman is a manipulating, self-center, lying, cheating narcissistic person. you can convince yourself anything you want, we are not buying it, and sadly neither should you, you are a doormat if you let her back in your life, and you will always be a doormat if you stay with her, you will be culkold and if you are crazy enough to have children with her, you will be raising them because she has defined her life, and expect this she will walk out again and the next time leaving you with the kids...save your soul, save your manhood, save your life, get rid of your wife.

BTW let me ask you one question is this the woman you want to be the mother of your children, has she displayed the qualities that you want to pass on your children? if either of those are no, then why are you married to her...time to grow up and put away childish toys...namely her. I am sorry for being rude but think of this as your intervention.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

pragmaster said:


> You guys are right.
> 
> But don't people fall in love again? Am I being delusional in thinking this will happen again one day?
> 
> ...


Oh. Em. Eff. Gee.

Yeah, that's what your WW needs... more guys to cheat on.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

pragmaster said:


> Despite my rage, I calmly collected myself and set out conditions to stay married and she made her own conditions. Although I want to forgive her, I don't think I will ever be able to and also be able to fully trust her again....*but I married her for better or worse, and I am not one to give up on anything.*


These are famous last words and we hear it a lot here.

A marriage involves two, committed people who both actively work on the marriage. At the best of times it's hard work.

It is impossible for you to have a marriage with only one committed adult. Your wife has just returned from a two month long wh0ring holiday. When you add in the trauma of her past (which has my sympathy) you have to realise that this is not a problem you can solve. She's blamed you for her affair. She feels she was entitled which is why you are doing all the hard work.

Get out. Don't waste your life. Your'e still a young man,


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

pragmaster said:


> But don't people fall in love again? Am I being delusional in thinking this will happen again one day?


This is going to sound harsh, but *she is not attracted to you and NO, she is not going to fall back in love with you.*

You stated that you became "beta-ized". She scr*wed around with alphas. In her mind, you will forever be a beta. You tried to kiss her and she recoiled. Not good.

She's a cheater. She doesn't sound willing to abide by the "conditions" you both laid out. She is comparing you to other males who are better lovers to further emasculate you. You don't have kids together.

Time to pull the plug on this one.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> But don't people fall in love again? Am I being delusional in thinking this will happen again one day?


I'm not sure if delusional is the right word, but it's close. She's looking for an exit affair; that's obvious. She'll find an OM that will give her one eventually. 

The problem is; you're asking the wrong questions. Instead you should be asking:

Why I am allowing myself to be her door mat? How can I get my self respect back? Why can't I see her for who she has shown herself to be? Get some counseling to find out.

The bottom line is that if a cheating spouse is not unconditionally remorseful; desperate to save the marriage; willing to do the heavy lifting - there is *NO* chance to save the marriage. 

Don't do a separation agreement. Head straight for divorce and implement the 180 to detach from her while you're in that process. There is a small chance that might get her attention, but based on how you've described her, I wouldn't expect it.

No kids - no brainer. Take this as a life lesson, take MMSLP to heart, and find another partner that will be faithful to you.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> you will be wondering if she is stuck on the interstate, or being used as an interstate.


Well said PhillyGuy. I'll have to remember that one.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Pragmaster

Your wife has been abused way before you came into the picture.

She is acting out and you cannot help her. Nor are you the reason she is acting out.

If you truly love her then your main condition should be that she gets professional counseling from a good shrink that specializes in rape and abuse.

Because until she gets that help she is going to repeat the abuse of you and continue to abuse the marriage.

Believe it!

HM


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

If you want the marriage to work, then both ends have to come to the middle and in your case....................it ain't happening.

Your doing what you need to do and giving what you have and she's taking what you have and giving nothing in return.

Doesn't sound fair or reasonable on her part does it? So now you see what your up against and now it's up to you to do what's best for you.

She hasn't moved off square one and if she had any intentions to do so, she would have. She tells you about her bout with sexual abuse, then she tells you that she cheated and not just cheated but with multiple men. 

No one deserves to be abused in any way but if that's the case and she was raped and sexually abused, IMO, I would think that she wouldn't be so care free by throwing it out there for casual sex with guys. To me, the first letter was the excuse to forgive her when she sent you the second letter.

I think you need to give her a letter also. But your letter needs to come from your attorney detailing the divorce your seeking. That should open her eyes up and see that her ways of dealing with the problems in the marriage and her cheating isn't working with you.

Yeah she came back because she doesn't have any other place to go, period and I think you know that too.

Time for you to man up and let her know that her actions and behavior isn't cutting it and it's time for her to move on because your moving on without her. 

Let her know that one of her partners she enjoyed herself with would be more than happy to put a roof over her head. 

Time for you to stand up and be heard.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Thanks everyone. I have started formulating the divorce papers and separation agreement. We live in Canada, and we have to be separated for a year before being able to divorce. 

I guess my only other question is, let's say we did try to fix things. Would you expect your SO to open up immediately (a.k.a hot make up sex), or do you think things should move slow? (I highly doubt either is going to happen)


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> I guess my only other question is, let's say we did try to fix things. *Would you expect your SO to open up immediately (a.k.a hot make up sex), or do you think things should move slow?* (I highly doubt either is going to happen)


You can move slow if you chose. She shouldn't have the luxury of choosing.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Dude, the 6 yrs was her conditioning you.
You bent over backwards doing things her way those 6 yrs.
She started small, just to see what she could get you to do.

Now think back. It's true isn't it ??

THAT my friend is why you feel the way you do now.
It took 6 yrs., but she got ya where she wants ya.

She left to stay with him, that's why she never let you come over.

Now they have broken up, or he kicked her out. Don't matter to her tho, cause she got you, until they either make up, or she finds someone else.

Likely outcome.
She lives with you for the next 6 to 12 months,,,, no sex,,,, finds her true type, D you and marry him, and walk away with half of everything.

So you can whine here, or get your butt in gear, manning up.
AND NO, I'm not talking about staying with her at all !!
Giving her demands to stay, and knowing how much she controlled you, she may stay, BUT, 3 to 5 yrs. down the road she will be back in control and leaving you.

She will ALWAYS be disgusted with you for the way you let her walk all over you. And man, it's hard for a woman to find a man attractive if she is disgusted with him.

Bright side, you are young and have learned some hard lessons.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

pragmaster said:


> Thanks everyone. I have started formulating the divorce papers and separation agreement. We live in Canada, and we have to be separated for a year before being able to divorce.
> 
> I guess my only other question is, let's say we did try to fix things. Would you expect your SO to open up immediately (a.k.a hot make up sex), or do you think things should move slow? (I highly doubt either is going to happen)


I'm also Canadian.

I was told in no uncertain terms by my lawyer not to have sex with, or sleep in the same bed or even house as my soon to be ex wife during our year of separation.

He said it "resets the clock and vastly complicates things."

So be careful.

My advice?

Do what I did. Get a hot GF and have the hot sex with her.

Clarified things substantially for me. I had more sex with her in the first month of dating than I did in 2.5 years of marriage.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

I see her conditioning is still working !!!

As far as you know, she was never abused or raped.
And why in the hell would you believe ANYTHING she say.

With so many shows on the TV concerning those subjects, she may just be playing the victim card with you, knowing you like she do.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Fair assumptions guys. 

For one though, she was staying at her girlfriends. I know this because I found out where she lived and stalked her to make sure. She has told me that the other guys aren't interested in dating her, although yes, I know I can't trust her anymore. I do know she was abused and rape; something else I confirmed behind her back. 

For two, define "walking all over someone" and "conditioning". I have never been a yes dear- sorry dear- okay dear type of guy. I've said no many times to many things but I do admit to rewarding bad behavior in the past and failing many many "fitness" tests. I stopped initiating date nights, I stopped hanging out with her and having her part of my life. We literally became roommates because it was just the "default" setting. Most of the years I hung out with my friends on the weekend and not her. She always went to bed early and to be honest was kind of boring. She changed after we got married. She wasn't always dull. We became more and more seperate with our lives until she actually started sleeping in the guest bedroom. But I didn't mind at the time, because well, she snored loudly and I worked a different shift and that allowed better sleep. 

Thirdly, I highly doubt we will have sex. Lol. 

Fourthly, in the whole 6 years I have ONLY ever felt disrespected once or twice. The first time was went she started withholding sex and I had to barter for it. After all it's her body, not mine. Whenever she said she didn't want to I respected her. You make it sound like sex is a sacred right in marriage or I could force her to do it. Fact is, she would had sex without hesitation with me when she didn't feel like it... but she would just lay there. One day I told her straight up, I don't want to have sex with you if you are not in the mood. And since, she has never been in the mood. 

Fifthly, I am a pretty chill guy. I am fluid. You say I was a doormat. How? I don't get it. Because I don't have a temper? Because I come from a family that taught me unconditional love where as she was raised in a foster home? Give me an example! I am a typical gemini folks. Pragmatist as hell. One of those guys who always sees a silver lining. I dug my own grave guys, I admit it, but at the same time, I was also just being myself, something I foolishly thought she accepted. 

Lastly, it also doesn't help how I was raised at home. My mom wore the pants in the relationship. I grew up believing that that was normal. So obviously I was passive in my relationship for a long long time, because I was used to the woman making the moves.

This is my first and last marriage. While every day I learn more mistakes I've made, I am almost still blinded by love. Appointment with the lawyer is tomorrow. I am taking initiative guys.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

That added info gives a better pic.
You both killed this marriage.

And now there is cheating thrown in.

I'm not going to debate issues, you seem to be finding your on way here.
D, date her to see if it can be revived, if not, you will be free to move on.

AND, in case I didn't say before,
Good Luck.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

I'm not disagreeing or trying to debate despite my responses. 

I totally agree in fact with everything you guys are saying.

Thank you. 

Other then taking initiative to divorce, I am wondering what else I can do in the time being? Is it worth even being her friend? What type of friend treats another like ****?

And is it worth revealing to my friends and family what she did?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Absolutely you need to expose this...not her rape her abuse that is personal and only she can tell that story, but and here is the big but...you matter how you may have contributed to the killing this marriage you DID NOT TAKE THE EASY OUT AND CHEATED...and she did clear and simple she did..that is what you expose...you walk out with your integrity she does not...she walks in shame...you want to be her friend...that will be very difficult for now , you have to much invested in your emotions for her....frankly i would stick to the 180 plan


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

pragmaster said:


> I'm not disagreeing or trying to debate despite my responses.
> 
> I totally agree in fact with everything you guys are saying.
> 
> ...


You'd only be doing her a favor by agreeing to remain "friends", as she'd likely work to milk everything that she possibly could out of such a relationship w/ you. You'd be accepting your place as her "Plan B", fallback position, second choice, etc. Damn man... that's how she's treating you now!

Establish the 180 in order to begin to fully detach from her. Cut her out of your life to the degree possible and, once the divorce is final, initiate NC and go dark on her.



pragmaster said:


> And is it worth revealing to my friends and family what she did?


File and expose on the same day. You don't have to go all emo w/ a vindictive, over-the-top exposure via e-mail, FB, or text blast to the world, but you can discretely -- and respectfully -- notify your families and common friends that you are divorcing, and this, this, and this are the reasons for it.

Make the exposure as dignified and unemotional as possible. And, if you choose to do it via social media (i.e. FB), do it via private messages as opposed to timeline/wall updates.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

You seem like a really good guy, and despite your flaws (which we all have) you are devoted to your wife and marriage. I wish she showed you the same devotion.

I personally don't think this is worth your time, effort, blood, sweat, tears, and cash to resolve. But that is your choice to make. She is going to need to do a ton of the heavy lifting, including intensive therapy. She has major issues that must be resolved before she can function in a healthy relationship. 

I hope everything works out for both or you.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> One day I told her straight up, I don't want to have sex with you if you are not in the mood. And since, she has never been in the mood.


This is all you needed to say, isn't it really? She is telling you with her actions how little she values you. Listen to her, agree to disagree, divorce, and find someone who does value you. And get councelling to figure out all these lessons.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Is religion a reason or your hesitation ?

Do you think you cannot do better than your wife in the looks department?

Is a lot of your self esteem based on her?

You are trying hard to learn and understand why this happened to you and you are on your way to make yourself better but you are still smeared in a life time of conditioning. You cannot tell it stinks because you are still covered in it.

Was "no more mr.nice guy" was in your reading list


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

pragmaster said:


> You say I was a doormat. How? I don't get it. Because I don't have a temper? Because I come from a family that taught me unconditional love where as she was raised in a foster home? *Give me an example!*


_*I wish I knew their tricks. I wish I was them. I wish I was taller, I wish I wasn't such a nice guy, and so forth. 

I married her for better or worse, and I am not one to give up on anything.

I already feel like she isn't taking my conditions seriously, although I am doing my best to meet hers. I feel like I am doing all of the work and she won't a finger unless she has to. 

What breaks my heart is that I fear that she is not giving me another chance, not because she loves another, but because she doesn't love herself, and I am realizing there is nothing I can do to fix that.

One of my conditions is that we start kissing again. I told her it's okay that we take it slow, but tonight right before bed I went in for one and she pulled away. I just wanted a two second peck, not a deep french kiss! She says she is numb and doesn't feel anything. I don't know what to do. 

I want to seek counselling together yet she is hesitant. I think with a little more balls I can make it happen.
*_

pragmaster,

You wanted examples. These are your own words. Stop trying to nice her back. She needs to understand that she's going to lose her husband for cheating on him unless she demonstrates immediate and unconditional remorse.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

badmemory said:


> _*
> 
> pragmaster,
> 
> You wanted examples. These are your own words. Stop trying to nice her back. She needs to understand that she's going to lose her husband for cheating on him even if she demonstrates immediate and unconditional remorse.*_


_*

Fixed it for you.*_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> Because I come from a family that taught me unconditional love where as she was raised in a foster home


He actually said that ? the savior syndrome is strong in this one.



> One of my conditions is that we start kissing again.





> I think with a little more balls I can make it happen.


Kill me!!


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

SadandAngry said:


> Fixed it for you.


I can't argue with that point of view either.


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## COfan (Oct 4, 2012)

My thought here is that you two may need a mediator so to speak. A marriage counselor to guide you. It's admirable that you are trying to set up rules and work on your marriage, but it may be more helpful to have a 3rd unbiased party giving you guidance.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

COfan said:


> My thought here is that you two may need a mediator so to speak. A marriage counselor to guide you. It's admirable that you are trying to set up rules and work on your marriage, but *it may be more helpful to have a 3rd unbiased party giving you guidance.*


That's exactly what everyone here has been providing.

And you know what? We're free! MC costs a pretty good chunk of $$$... and why waste it on a marriage that's so completely broken?

OP, save your money for your divorce.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Well Prag, sounds like a crap deal, in keeping with current standards.

Hoping this doesn't turn into just another alpha/beta lingo fest.

I mentioned the phrase seen around here some to my wife today:

"Give a woman the world, and she'll despise you for it."

She replied that no woman will be truly at ease unless she feels cherished and protected by her man at all times. Fine. Great goal. Its a question of who holds the cherished/protected yard stick, I guess. Some can reach this level of satisfaction, and others will constantly be looking for more.

"If you cherished me you wouldn't mow the lawn today." 
"You didn't stand up for me when that clerk wouldn't honor my coupon"

What really gets nutty is when these perceived failures of cherish-ment and protection give the spouse the idea that she is justified in cheating.

WTF? Less than total perfection and you're free to skank it up? 

The old, "its not me, its you" bit. Why did she get married in the first place? Be married or have some balls and get a divorce.

This entitled adulteress sounds like she deserves a crash course in reality. Let her have these jerks she cheats with. They'll use her, and dump her.

Lastly, you're going to have the last laugh, and it will be a long, loud and hard laugh. When she's 40, you're 34.


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Forest said:


> Well Prag, sounds like a crap deal, in keeping with current standards.
> 
> Hoping this doesn't turn into just another alpha/beta lingo fest.
> 
> ...



Thanks guys. I came home today to find her stuff all gone. Its officially over. I'm free!!! I will never take her back too. She has a few things left to move . I took the liberty of packaging all of her **** for her. I told her this morning that make up sex was a condition of her coming back. I guess I got my answer. Im sad,but very happy

A weight has been lifted. I refuse to go another day without my needs being considered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

At least she left. Cowardly to just disapear while you were gone though. Like we say though, actions speak louder than words.

Do not answer calls. Communicate via email.

Her leaving tells you everything you need to know. This is pure luck under the circumstances.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

A truly hearty "congratulations!" Pragmaster. Your WW has saved you a lot of trouble and heartache by cowardly bailing out on you when you weren't there. Be thankful that, save for working out the terms of your divorce, you won't have to deal with her and her problems anymore. She probably will drift from one guy's bed to another until her looks fail and the offers stop coming. She really deserves her fate. Good luck to you. You'll find someone much better who loves you and would never hurt you in this way. Keep smilin', brother, your future's lookin' up!!! :smthumbup:


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

You got a big break---YOU GOT YOUR LIFE BACK

You married tooooo young, and on top of that, at your young age you married a woman 6 yrs older than you

In some instances---the mge makes it----yours, didn't----you were not ready to be married---and eventually it drove her to seek what she needed elsewhere

This time, take your time, benefit from your past mistakes---don't move to fast---- you will find the right partner, and hopefully have a good solid mge---just don't rush into anything, as in a REBOUND situation.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

PM, you may not see the silver lining in her cowardly escape plan , i get that, but one day you will be back in what i hope is a healthy relationship and realize that you escaped a bullet, a bullet that would have crippled your future. otherwise. right now your hurting and we are truly sorry for that, no one wants that for anyone. But grief is part of the healing process, and believe or not you will heal in a much better way then she will, for she will continue to be broken until she stops and gets help. But that can not be your burden to carry she must... like all of us carry our own burden if we are ever to get well. For now seek help and love from those who are not selfish to share and support you. then one day come back and reread the words from the other posters, reread your words and will have new eyes and new perspective and hopefully a wiser insight...you may never completely understand her, but you will understand yourself and that is half the battle.


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## BashfulB (Jul 1, 2013)

Change the door locks as soon as possible.


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## Idyit (Mar 5, 2013)

Looks like you may be done with this one and that's a good thing.

For your own sanity you may want to do a little reading about BPD (borderline personality disorder). Not as a fix for her but to see what you were dealing with and why you were 'chosen' to participate. 

I wish you well.

~ Passio


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

pragmaster said:


> Thanks guys. I came home today to find her stuff all gone. Its officially over. I'm free!!! I will never take her back too. She has a few things left to move . I took the liberty of packaging all of her **** for her. I told her this morning that make up sex was a condition of her coming back. I guess I got my answer. Im sad,but very happy
> 
> A weight has been lifted. I refuse to go another day without my needs being considered.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



A lot of us here wish we would have been as lucky! Saved you a heap of time and trouble. 

DO NOT TAKE HER BACK. Take this time to get your head on straight and make some boundaries for your next relationship. 

There is a difference between a passive doormat and a "chill" guy. Your language speaks as the former. 

You can be a chill guy, even smoke pot, and not have to take any of that crap! 

Best of luck to you. Don't waiver.


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

It's hard to man up when you don't have any balls


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ok. I take that back. It seems your growing some.

It's the end, and the beginning. Your free!


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

Thanks guys. **** you alphaomega. 

Yeah, it's been a hard to face truth that nice guys do indeed finish last but even harder to admit that there were childhood reasons that caused me to seek approval in her, and in women in general. I will never take her back and I have learned a lot from this experience. I also said some extremely harsh things to level the playing field and ensure that it won't happen. Lol. **** her! Not only did I expose the whole world to her cheating ways, I took the liberty of packing all of her ****, taking away all of our pictures of us from her photo albums, cancelling her phone bill that was under my work plan and also telling off her friends who knew she was cheating. Call me an bumhole. But I accept the fact that I am now without hesitation. No more Mr.Nice guy. I have always known what I want but have settled for less due to fear. I will never compromise my standards again! 

Dr.Glover and his No more Mr. Nice Guy book, and his PET courses have been phenomenally helpful. Honestly, this book should be given to men when they become old enough to date. It's changing my life.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

This chick's actions told you everything you need to know. Everything. 

She will be back. Think very carefully about getting her back. 

I'll quote Rollo here:

Iron Rule of Tomassi #7
"It is always time and effort better spent developing new, fresh, prospective women than it will ever be in attempting to reconstruct a failed relationship. Never root through the trash once the garbage has been dragged to the curb. You get messy, your neighbors see you do it, and what you thought was worth digging for is never as valuable as you thought it was."


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

pragmaster said:


> Thanks guys. I came home today to find her stuff all gone. Its officially over. I'm free!!! I will never take her back too. She has a few things left to move . I took the liberty of packaging all of her **** for her. I told her this morning that make up sex was a condition of her coming back. I guess I got my answer. Im sad,but very happy
> 
> A weight has been lifted. I refuse to go another day without my needs being considered.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You were lucky that she left you. You do not have any other option now

learn from this. You were arguing with poster defending your actions. You never had a chance TBH


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

No kids?

Run like Forrest Gump away from this one.


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## Sammy64 (Oct 28, 2013)

helolover said:


> This chick's actions told you everything you need to know. Everything.
> 
> She will be back. Think very carefully about getting her back.
> 
> ...


Wow.. I have never looked at it that way, and it really sticks true...


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## pragmaster (May 7, 2014)

It's so true. And I want to apologize for arguing. You guys were right! So right!

And you bet I will never take her back. No kids! Few! It's just sad her dad and I get a long very well. She thinks I turned him against her, but I simply told him the truth because I think family deserves to know...even extended family.


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