# Are all WS Narcissists?



## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

My soon to be ex wife is a Covert Narcissist. 
Even when I talk or meet with her now I really see it.
It's her world and we all just live in it.
Just wondering how many of you experience this?


----------



## Vespil (May 21, 2018)

It's been my experience that just about every divorced person thinks their ex has serious mental problems.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

It is highly doubtful that a high percentage of WS (or any other part of the population) is diagnosable as NPD. HIGHLY doubtful.

However, the selfishness of someone when in the midst of an affair can certainly be described as narcissistic.


----------



## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

Can you give details of how you see her narcissism?
Like what does she do?
What does she say?
How she behave?

Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

There are a few people I have encountered on forums who give an armchair diagnosis regularly. Even if these people are practitioners, they are not qualified to diagnose someone they have never met. So I just roll my eyes and hope they don't do too much damage with their copy/paste medical advice...


----------



## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

Vespil said:


> It's been my experience that just about every divorced person thinks their ex has serious mental problems.


Don't we all?


Sent from my QMV7A using Tapatalk


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

I don't think my XW was. She had some mild undiagnosed depression issues due to the death of her parents, had low self esteem from being fat as a kid, and loved the attention she got when cheating. But I don't think that qualifies as a narcissist.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

You might be able to say that cheaters have XYZ condition, but that doesn't mean they have always had that condition or that condition describes them. It could be that the affair made them become that way. All the aspects of the affair will have a powerful effect on the brain. The sex, lying, illicit nature, etc. all involve very strong emotions and brain chemicals. Being in an affair may change who they are and make them into someone that they weren't before the affair.

As a comparison, think of all the people addicted to opiates. Many of them were normal, law abiding people who started with prescribed pain killers. But they got addicted and went through extreme measures to continue getting the drug. Someone who was once a loving family member is turned into someone who will steal anything and tell blatant, ridiculous lies in order to keep getting their drugs. Certainly an addict suffers from many psychological conditions, but that doesn't mean they had those conditions before they became an addict.

So I think it's something like that with some cheaters. Morally good people start out doing small things that they think are harmless. Maybe they're going through a rough patch and are looking for a little emotional support and validation. But little by little their brain chemistry changes, and things that they once thought as morally repugnant they are now able to justify to themselves. By the time they are deep in the affair, so many of their moral constructs have gone by the wayside that they don't care about the damage they cause. A cheater may very well end up a narcissist, but that doesn't mean they were a narcissist all along.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

StillSearching said:


> My soon to be ex wife is a Covert Narcissist.
> Even when I talk or meet with her now I really see it.
> It's her world and we all just live in it.
> Just wondering how many of you experience this?


When you get past the fact that you loved them, and detach, yes you see it. 

My ex may not be a narcissist, but she has some serious issues. I knew many of them were there, I just could not really understand how bad they were. 

Example, She was a drug addict for 20 years of a 26 year marriage. It was hidden because she was a pain management patient. Now many PMP can take the prescribed pain meds and function at a good/high level, and live a somewhat normal life. 

But some addicts, augment their pain meds with other meds, Fioricet is one, even Benadryl for some, to get high and abuse the meds. 

OK, so when she got sober, and I finally put 2 and 2 together, she honestly could not understand why I was so pissed off about the fact that she lied to me for 20 years. That type of addiction is a lot like infidelity, the same patterns of lies and sneaking around. 

But she could not understand what I was upset about. And she still does not to this day. IMHO that is pretty f'ed up. 

And that is just one reason that I divorced her. 



Vespil said:


> It's been my experience that just about every divorced person thinks their ex has serious mental problems.


I think this post is kind of unfair. For people that value marriage, it is hard to see someone's problems. You want to explain it away, make excuses. In the case of addiction, it sneaks up on the other partner, a little at a time. Over time, when you live from on crisis to another, that becomes the norm. Then sometimes you get a moment of clarity and you understand more of what has been going on. 

So, a lot of people stay with a person that is mentally ill, 1) because the don't really see it at first, and 2) even when you do it is hard to leave. 

Further, as you try to figure out what is going on, you learn about mental illness, addiction, and other types of behaviors. 

So, yeah, A LOT of people's ex spouses have mental issues, and when you find out and end the marriage, that is the reason. And it is in fact TRUE a large percentage of the time. I was in my case.


----------



## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Short answer? 

NO. 

One does not have to have a NIH diagnosable personality disorder to be capable of cheating. Would it make cheatin easier for them, sure. 

Lets look at some simple statistics:



> According to the largest study ever conducted on personality disorders (PD) by the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH), 5.9% of the U.S. population has BPD (Grant et al. 2008) and 6.2% has NPD (Stinson et al. 2008). As some people fit both diagnoses, about 10 percent of the U.S. population has BPD and/or NPD.


https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america

If all cheaters have NPD, to come close to the rates of cheating, it would mean that all NPD have been married, and cheated on their spouses. I think the number of cheaters includes those with out NPD.


----------



## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> So, a lot of people stay with a person that is mentally ill, 1) because the don't really see it at first, and 2) even when you do it is hard to leave.


Exactly, for both. There is also a fact which my attorney said..."...you can't get rid of a person like that....".... the court-system, the laws, the "hand-tying", are all against the sober spouse, just like they are against the BS.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I don't believe that all, or even most, WS's are narcissists or are suffering from any other mental illness or personality disorder. I think most of them are weak and selfish with very poor boundaries. Some, though, do seem to be more consistently self-centered than the norm. And, of course, people who actually do have personality disorders or mental issues are often more prone to infidelity than non-sufferers. 

I don't ever claim that my ex-husband is a narcissist. He is not evil. Most people who know him think he's a wonderful guy, and he's careful to encourage and maintain that image. He thinks of himself as a rational, caring, honest, moral, upright man. And is some ways he is. 

He is also a completely unrepentant serial cheater, among a few other 'quirks'. He's selfish and self-centered in a way that makes him a _very_ poor relationship partner. It's not that he thinks other people don't matter, it's that it honestly doesn't even really occur to him that they might. 

A person can be profoundly selfish and destructive to others even if they don't meet the full criteria for a clinical NPD diagnosis.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*After my RSXW, you would have one hell of a time convincing me that she's not a narcissist!

Or for that matter, that all cheaters probably have a huge dose of narcissism embedded in their DNA!*


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

StillSearching said:


> My soon to be ex wife is a Covert Narcissist.
> Even when I talk or meet with her now I really see it.
> It's her world and we all just live in it.
> Just wondering how many of you experience this?


:surprise: SS,

Seems you touched a nerve using the "N" word.

A Narcissist and Selfishness are kiss-in cousins. I am more intrigued with realization of "Covert". My WW was a master of "Closet Vanity". From the outside looking in no one would believe or see it. It defined identify though. The admiration and attention of others gave her a feeling of worth. POSOM would pickup on this and you know the outcome.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Actually no. We all display various levels of selfishness. Narcissism.is a diagnosable disorder.

I get why people are attached to "diagnosing" all wayward. It makes us feel better and feel better than "them."

But it's just not accurate.

No nerve. Just actual facts 😉


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Actually no. We all display various levels of selfishness. Narcissism.is a diagnosable disorder.


I agree. WSs are selfish and self-centered but I dont believe most have a mental illness. Some might but I believe most are just selfish folks who cheated becuase they wanted to. 

I wonder if giving them a "diagnosis" makes it easier for some to reconcile since their WS has this or that disorder and wasn't simply interested in screwing someone else..


----------



## Spoons027 (Jun 19, 2017)

I would also like to chime in and say no, not all. But I also think there's something definitely wrong with those who keep repeatedly cheating with no guilt or regret, even after seeing the devastation it causes those they claim to love. Especially those who continue to cheat way under the radar when they're supposedly trying to reconcile.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

StillSearching said:


> My soon to be ex wife is a Covert Narcissist.
> Even when I talk or meet with her now I really see it.
> It's her world and we all just live in it.
> Just wondering how many of you experience this?


They are all broken in some way. I would say yes a lot of them are totally self focused with poor long term thinking. It's a fatal combination when you are partnered with them.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> They are all broken in some way. I would say yes a lot of them are totally self focused with poor long term thinking. It's a fatal combination when you are partnered with them.


I think character flaws are different than a diagnosed mental illness.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I think character flaws are different than a diagnosed mental illness.


I wouldn't say that are all or even most are mentally ill but most are emotionally immature.

So not narcissists true.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

sokillme said:


> I wouldn't say that are all or even most are mentally ill but most are emotionally immature.
> 
> So not narcissists true.


Serious character flaws for sure.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Serious character flaws for sure.


The real scary thing is they are not mentally ill but still abuse people so awfully. Lots of people are just ****ty and the only reason is because they want to and don't really care about the consequences. Narcissism or mental illness has nothing to do with it.


----------



## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

Are all cheaters narcissists? 

That's an insult to narcissists.


----------



## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I agree. WSs are selfish and self-centered but I dont believe most have a mental illness. Some might but I believe most are just selfish folks who cheated becuase they wanted to.
> 
> I wonder if giving them a "diagnosis" makes it easier for some to reconcile since their WS has this or that disorder and wasn't simply interested in screwing someone else..


I'm a diagnosed BPD'er. Didn't make our R any easier. Then again, I didn't try to use it as an excuse.


----------



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Well, my STBXH has described himself as a narcissistic @$$hole! I don't necessarily think he's a narcissist, although he does display some tendencies. However, I'm not a doctor. I do however, think that he's just really confused about what he wants out of life and love, and think he was selfish to an extent. Not that I was the perfect spouse; far from it. I did try though for years until there was nothing left to try for.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Rowan said:


> I don't believe that all, or even most, WS's are narcissists or are suffering from any other mental illness or personality disorder. I think most of them are weak and selfish with very poor boundaries. Some, though, do seem to be more consistently self-centered than the norm. And, of course, people who actually do have personality disorders or mental issues are often more prone to infidelity than non-sufferers.
> 
> I don't ever claim that my ex-husband is a narcissist. He is not evil. Most people who know him think he's a wonderful guy, and he's careful to encourage and maintain that image. He thinks of himself as a rational, caring, honest, moral, upright man. And is some ways he is.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. But, I will say till the day that I die that my Ex W is an evil person. And that is not just because she cheated, some of the things she did in my mind were far worse that cheating as bad as that is. 

Now, she actually does have Borderline personality Disorder, and she is bi-polar, so maybe she is just such a messed up person that disqualifies her as evil. 

Doesn't actually matter to me anymore what she is, because for the most part she is out of my life. 

But I am sure that not everyone that cheats is BPD, or NPD, but in a way... don't all of them have some type of issue that allows them to think it is ok or at the very least they can get away with it?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

You can pretty much guarantee that any post beginning with "all" or "most" and then a pejorative is nearly guaranteed to be wrong.

You should take the opinions and advice of anyone here who makes claims about any other group of people as being exactly what that claim is worth unless it is backed up by empirical data collected by disinterested parties in a controlled manner.

And no, "I hang out around a bunch of marriage forums" does not qualify. Certainly not to diagnose any personality issue whatsoever.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I guess here is as good a place for going on record about my feelings of infidelity. People on this board look at this one thing as if it exists in a vacuum. I can actually see the loneliness and desperation that a WS might feel. I have seen my own DH fail to "hear" my words. If I were so inclined, being a WAW would have been well within sense over the years. Thankfully I have other tools to dope slap my DH into wakefulness valuing who he is a lot on balance. But had I not had those tools? Had I gone years of loneliness and desperation only to face at least a year before I could divorce (my state)? Cheating does not really appeal to me on any level, so I can't say I would have been tempted there. But I can really understand how it happens, how a person's reality allows them to believe the fog.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> Actually no. We all display various levels of selfishness. Narcissism.is a diagnosable disorder.
> 
> I get why people are attached to "diagnosing" all wayward. It makes us feel better and feel better than "them."
> 
> ...


I think that NPD is actually a scale, or series of behaviors, a spectrum if you will. I think everyone can have some tendencies, but I guess some people have a lot of the tendencies so they kind of move into the diagnosis.


----------



## Hexagon (Jun 20, 2017)

My ex is a diagnosed BPD and undiagnosed NPD. I believe she has more on the cluster B personality disorder scale than just those two as well such as histrionic. 
Yeah, I'm not a doctor however I know this person and if it quacks like a duck.......
I would like to add that I don't need to be a theoretical physicist to understand the concept of gravity. 

Once I started to read and do some research on the subject, I started accurately predicting her behavior. Thats not to say that they are all this way. Its absurd to believe that however, when you destroy the lives or worlds of others and/or children, you are not mentally, OK.


----------



## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> I'm a diagnosed BPD'er. Didn't make our R any easier. Then again, I didn't try to use it as an excuse.


You've never used any excuses as far as I can tell from your posts. I just think we sometimes tend to rush with a "diagnosis" when there simply isn't one outside of routine selfishness. People do shh!tty things who are not narcissists.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

It’s a bit like asking: do fat people like food. Or do tanned people like the sun. Or if Christians like god.
If you regard cheating as a narcissistic activity then the question is pointless. What purpose will the answer serve?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stillthinking (Jun 1, 2016)

They may not all be bonafide Narcissists. 

But dam, they sure as hell are giving it their best shot!


----------

