# How to forgive completely, and the DS feeling remorse



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Me and my H have been ploughing through things. I feel the MC is helping us take a step back and look at how we interact, and ways of improving communication.

I have been slowly working through things in my mind. H had an EA with someone at work, and I was devastated when I found out. It's been an up and down and up again journey so far.

I am working really hard to find forgiveness. I have thought a lot about it. I am at the point where I feel I can forgive him for finding the OW attractive and liking her (hurts, but feel this needs to come first, everyone's going to find someone or other attractive at some point.)

Now this is where I come unstuck. Two sides of the same coin, I can forgive his actions on a selfish level, ie those which were to bolster his ego by indulging in meetings, phone calls, text messaging. I know this was about him and not me and I find it easy to forgive him from that perspective.

What I am having great difficulty with, is forgiving the lies. The hiding stuff. The making me feel like I was crazy for questioning him. I guess, I have trouble with forgiving him for breaking the trust, and knowing that although it was him that did it, it is me who feels the effects. Knowing it will never be the same, I trusted him 100% before.

Although we are getting through and things do feel better, I don't feel I can step right in completely and immerse myself in this again until I can a) forgive him completely, and b) feel remorse from him.

I'm not saying he doesn't *feel* remorseful. I know he feels guilty. He says (and has said many times now) that he would never hurt me intentionally. I know there is some genuine feeling behind this. The difficulty is that what it was for him, is different to what it was to me. He knows he has hurt me, and he is sorry for that. But I don't feel he truly understands: of course he doesn't, because he trusts me completely.

I guess what I'm wondering with this is am I hoping for something that is too much? Do people reconcile after an A without their DS feeling remorse? Can you mend things without that? How do you forgive completely?


----------



## heartbroken1957 (Apr 8, 2011)

Feeling the same here. I have forgiven for the EA, but with that said I HAVE NOT forgiven for the hurting me. The EA was a lie, in my mind. He lied to me by having an affair. He had promised with marriage vows to love and cherish me. The lie was a vow broken. 
He said I made a mistake, It was stupid and I don't know what I was thinking. I really love you and never quit loving you. He did state that he loved me in the EA letters, but that he was not happy being with me. 
We are working on the not being happy with me part. I must say that is the longest and hardest part of what we are getting through. There are days I just want to walk and say to He!! with it. There are days that I start packing. Then I look at him and decide to work harder on the problem. 
I don't like taking total blame for major things that he claims was why he didn't want to be with me. 
Money. I don't see a way around it or through it. He has always been a control freak about it and very very controlling over it. I gave over shopping to him, since it was easier to let him do it than get b####ed at. But the problem with that is there are times I need something now and he won't go. He will put it off for hours and then throw a fit when a meal isn't ready or doesn't happen. 
Well go to the store when I ask. He'll state that I should go and then he gripes about what I spent. 
A damned if you do, damned if you don't, feeling.
After a month of his rants on this, I have decided today to give it to him fully. With that he must go when I ask. 
Don't know if it will work but I'm running out of options.


----------



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

heartbroken, sorry to hear you are in a similar position. It sounds like your H has reasonings as to why he did what he did (not saying he was right btw), my H says it was nothing to do with me which in a way makes it more difficult for me. My H also says and continues to say he didn't know why he did what he did, which trouble me because I figure if he doesn't know why he did it, he could just go ahead and do it again the next time a similar situation presents itself.

I relate to the finding it hard in terms of wanting to just leave. I tell myself, not to go off in a fit of hurt when on the crest of a wave of emotion. I tell myself to make any actions, those done in a premeditated and thoughtful way. This really helps, as I know I can be prone to reacting rather than acting. Don't know if that helps.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

How can you forgive someone who isnt sorry?

I think you can 100% forgive him if he shows 100% remorse. It seem you are looking for remores from him and he may think he's being remorseful. You better tell him what your looking for as far as remorese goes b/c these two things are the pinocle of R.

It is important that you tell him what you need to heal. He will need to do the heavy lifting in doing that.

I told my wife what I needed and she jumped in with both feet. She didn't understand it, but that wasn't the point, it was about me healing. For her it was just anther consequence, for lack of a better term she "nursed me back to health" . Basicly she had to do all the things she did 21 years ago when we first started dating, being together all the time, calling all the time, those special thing that made me want to ask her out. For me that show remores. and I have fogiven her, just can't forget ( another consequence).


----------



## heartbroken1957 (Apr 8, 2011)

The Guy. There are tears welling up in my eyes because I can't get that from H. I have asked and asked. I broke down recently and screamed, pleaded and sobbed my way through 3 hrs of telling him what he did to me. What I can't get past is why he still wants to hurt me. Why he is still withholding himself, and still throwing You did this, you continue to do this, at me. 
I am trying, I can't hear any B####ing in my voice. If I ask a question I am nagging him. 
He went to the MC for his individual yesterday. He walked back through the door and in a happy voice with a smirk said, she wants to see you next week again and then we'll do a couple one. It was the smirk that set me off. Did she say what she wanted to talk about? (she usually gives homework) NO (in angry tone) Then with his loud I'm King voice, he said, YOU NEED TO GO SEE HER!. 

I just wish he would tell me, show me, from his heart with emotion, that he was wrong and I mean the world to him, he can't go on without me. 
Now in full tears down the cheeks. I've never gotten anything other than "I'm sorry, but, and Yes I love you. No touching me when he says this. He has never held me and let me feel his remorse.


----------



## Squiffy (Oct 26, 2010)

So Heartbroken, seeing the way he treats you - over-controlling, insensitive and no remorse - can you tell me why are you still staying with him?


----------



## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

heartbroken, consider a new MC. One that's not taking sides, or allowing the perception of taking sides... 

walkingwounded, I'm in the same boat (+41 days from DDay). Although I don't/haven't/probably won't forgive, I do understand her "feed-the-fragile-ego" need and perhaps therefore why she did what she did. I cannot, and absolutely will not, understand nor forgive the fact that she then made a repeated choice to lie, hide, and continue with what she was doing, how she talked herself into feeling she 'deserved' it, because I was off working so much. 

I have to say, however, that after non-stop talk/MC/journaling for 3-4 weeks, there was this breakthrough with her... she suddenly understood that this really was ALL about a character flaw inside of her, an unmet, deep-seated problem with her need to have everyone and anyone want her, need her, think she was pretty, pay attention to her... suddenly, there was deeper true remorse, a deeper, renewed commitment to fix herself, even more so than fix our marriage. Because I gave her that and more when I was with her; she just needed it more frequently, and when it became available to her, she took it and like a junkie kept at it, seeking that next high. Like a light switch went off, without me saying a word to cause it.... it just somehow sunk it.

It is this epiphany that gives me hope. If this were all about me changing to better meet her needs to prevent a future affair, I'd be packing my things by now. I'm angry it took that long (despite her doing and saying the right things about wanting us to work it all out for thise first 4 weeks), but finding solace in the fact that it DID come, she did see it, and is addressing it.

Hopefully yours will find the same.


----------



## Lostinthewoods (Jun 12, 2011)

2xloser said:


> ..a flaw inside of her, an unmet, deep-seated problem with her need to have everyone and anyone want her, need her, think she was pretty, pay attention to her... ..... and when it became available to her, she took it and like a junkie kept at it, seeking that next high......


I relate to this...sadly. I have past sexual abuse that stemmed from needing attention...feeling neglected. I have never had an addiction in my life. But reading this, I believe I was experiencing my first addiction. I didn't recognize myself for a few days there. Thanks for sharing this.


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Walkingwounded, 

When you find out, please post for the rest of us... you took the exact words out of my mouth!

~sammy


----------



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

the guy said:


> How can you forgive someone who isnt sorry?
> 
> I think you can 100% forgive him if he shows 100% remorse. It seem you are looking for remores from him and he may think he's being remorseful. You better tell him what your looking for as far as remorese goes b/c these two things are the pinocle of R.
> 
> It is important that you tell him what you need to heal. He will need to do the heavy lifting in doing that.


I need to think about what exactly it is I want, you are right. Although he has gotten better, when things do get spoken about and he gets frustrated, he keep saying about wanting to move on. He has been very honest in MC and said that he says that because every time we talk about it, it reminds him of what he did. But that is, he feels bad for HIM.



heartbroken1957 said:


> I just wish he would tell me, show me, from his heart with emotion, that he was wrong and I mean the world to him, he can't go on without me.


I want this too. I don't think I will get it like that though. He would see saying that as a weakness.



2xloser said:


> I have to say, however, that after non-stop talk/MC/journaling for 3-4 weeks, there was this breakthrough with her... she suddenly understood that this really was ALL about a character flaw inside of her, an unmet, deep-seated problem with her need to have everyone and anyone want her, need her, think she was pretty, pay attention to her... suddenly, there was deeper true remorse, a deeper, renewed commitment to fix herself, even more so than fix our marriage. Because I gave her that and more when I was with her; she just needed it more frequently, and when it became available to her, she took it and like a junkie kept at it, seeking that next high. Like a light switch went off, without me saying a word to cause it.... it just somehow sunk it.
> 
> It is this epiphany that gives me hope. If this were all about me changing to better meet her needs to prevent a future affair, I'd be packing my things by now. I'm angry it took that long (despite her doing and saying the right things about wanting us to work it all out for thise first 4 weeks), but finding solace in the fact that it DID come, she did see it, and is addressing it.
> 
> Hopefully yours will find the same.


Now that is a valuable perspective. Very interesting to me, I have not thought about things like that. I have been very focused on me. I have got past the feeling like it happened because of something to do with me, and accepting that it was about him.

I haven't actually seen much from him that shows a willingness to improve himself. I haven't seen anything that says he doesn't want to, I should point out, I just don't think he's got to that place yet. What he said about why he sought the attention of the OW is *scarily* similar to what your W said about how she felt. Eerily. I am stuck thinking do I continue to give him attention knowing it is what he feeds off, or do I ease off, and worry he might get it from elsewhere? Where is that middle ground?

He has said about practical things to avoid similar situations, which is positive, after us discussing what we feel is appropriate and inappropriate behavior. I feel this is good, but to me there is an element of inconvenience almost. Like, he said he avoids talking to any other women at all now, for fear of me finding out and thinking the worst. The action is good but its the sentiment behind it that troubles me somewhat, like it is a pain for him, rather than doing it as a positive action to avoid temptation (I have not asked him to do this, this was off his own back.)

I feel we will unravel thismore in MC though, so I am hoping to address it with the support of the counselor.


----------



## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

How do you forgive completely?

IMO, forgiveiness is a choice. And forgiving and forgetting are not the same. Truth is: you will never forget. 

Tell him you wonder if he's remorseful. Be honest with him and tell him how you are feelings. 



walkingwounded said:


> What I am having great difficulty with, is forgiving the lies. The hiding stuff. The making me feel like I was crazy for questioning him. I guess, I have trouble with forgiving him for breaking the trust, and knowing that although it was him that did it, it is me who feels the effects. Knowing it will never be the same, I trusted him 100% before.


This is why I've always said the affair is bad enough, but it's the covering it up that is the worst part of the betrayal. It's the lying about it that hurts worse than the actual thing (and the actual thing is awful too).

I think for a true reconciliation to happen, there DOES have to be an apology, remorse, assurance it won't happen again and the DS owning what they did and fully understanding conveying they know how badly it affected the BS and the marriage.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I’m pretty certain SHAME must be felt BEFORE a person feels GUILTY and REMORSEFUL.

Without feeling shame (disgrace, embarrassment, dishonour, humiliation, indignity, ignominy, infamy), that is ashamed of what they have done, a person will never feel guilty or remorseful.

The antonym, opposite of shame is pride (arrogance, conceit, smugness, pride, self-importance, satisfaction, pleasure, superiority). So if a person is proud of what they have done, they’re never going to feel guilty or remorseful about it.

So ask yourself the question “Is my spouse ashamed of what they have done or are they proud of what they have done?”.

Both shame and pride are very easy to “spot” simply through their body language. They don’t need to speak a word for you to get your answer.

Bob


----------



## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> IMO, forgiveiness is a choice. And forgiving and forgetting are not the same. Truth is: you will never forget.
> 
> Tell him you wonder if he's remorseful. Be honest with him and tell him how you are feelings.
> 
> ...


Agree with all this. I want to ask him, I am worried about the oh-no-not-this-again reaction but I also need to get over that because it is not fair to pre-empt him, that is my bad, but if he does react like that, that is *his* problem.



AFEH said:


> I’m pretty certain SHAME must be felt BEFORE a person feels GUILTY and REMORSEFUL.
> 
> Without feeling shame (disgrace, embarrassment, dishonour, humiliation, indignity, ignominy, infamy), that is ashamed of what they have done, a person will never feel guilty or remorseful.
> 
> ...


He's not PROUD of it. I know that. I remember when he told his family what he had done, and the words he used were very indicative of the shame he felt. Embarrassment almost, like he couldn't believe he was talking about himself.

I just feel that remorse is different from shame. I feel like shame is about how he feels about himself, judging himself by his standards. The remorse I feel is more about the pain he feels for me, would it be empathy I think? I need that.


----------



## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

I think you've nailed it it terms & lables that I haven't been able to express (here, or to her)... I _want to know_ that she feels both the shame AND the remorse. As I said to her, I want to know that if (by some twisted, magical event) I was somehow OK with what you'd done, that you'd STILL be sorry and remorseful, just for what you've done and what it is...

The _remorse_ is for hurting me, "sinning against me" if you will... 
The _shame_ is for the act itself, "sinning against herself". 

For some reason I need to know, see, feel that she's got both emotions going on. I think she does actually (she is certainly not proud, although at one point while in the A she says she had seemed to convince herself she 'deserved' it), but she mostly expresses it in "so sorry for how I have hurt you" terms...


----------

