# If you think your kids are resilient....



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

If you are cheating and you think your kids will adjust after the divorce, you NEED to listen to this:

When His Parents Got Divorced, This Kid Wrote Them a Letter, and It Is a *Must-Read* For All of Us

If you talk down about your spouse, you are telling your child they come from someone who is unlovable and wrong. That is unforgivable.


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## X-B (Jul 25, 2013)

I know one that is written in stone. No matter what happens in my life i will not use the kids as a bargaining chip to speak bad of her on front of or to our children. Even she-devel didn't talk bad about me to the kids. This is the part of listening to the VAR that I felt as wrong when the kids were with her. One day after she picked them up from school my son asked her if I got the go-kart going. (I had to rebuild the engine on it.) She told him yes it was running and waiting on him. What he said next makes being a dad so great. He said "boom chaka chaka I have the best dad in the world". She said "Yes you do he will do anything for you"
No matter what happens the kids are OFF LIMITS.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

The sad reality is that children _*are*_ casualties of both betrayals and the consequences of them. 

Betrayers are so hoplessly selfish and broken that they have no concern about the collateral damage they do. 

And that damage, once done, is permanent. Even if R is attempted.

Thanks for starting this thread. It's a necessary reminder,


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## Pamvhv (Apr 27, 2014)

Wow.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

*Re: Re: If you think your kids are resilient....*



X-Betaman said:


> i know one that is written in stone. No matter what happens in my life i will not use the kids as a bargaining chip so speak bad of her on front of or to our children. Even she-devel didn't talk bad about me to the kids. This is the part of listening to the VAR that I felt as wrong when the kids were with her. One day after she picked them up from school my son asked her if I got the go-kart going. (I had to rebuild the engine on it.) She told him yes it was running and waiting on him. What he said next makes being a dad so great. He said "boom chaka chaka I have the best dad in the world". She said +Yes you do he will do anything for you"
> No matter what happens the kids are OFF LIMITS.


Agree with this 100%. The end of my marriage was nasty- I was recommended a RO, but I felt separation would be enough (and it was). I never talked badly about my ex. He was a crappy husband, but a great dad. I tell my son how lucky he is quite often.

As sad as it is, the other day my BFF (who is having a hard time with her marriage) said to me "Whenever I think about how splitting up might affect DD, I look at you and xH and know it'll be okay. Your DS really is doing awesome. " 

Even if things don't go as intended in your M, you can still do right by your kids.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

All I know is Uncle Buck said they (kids) were. Gus Polinski should have the final word on this.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

Sorry this is too easy.

What about when the person who is having the affair attempts to ram their new eality down the kids throats. To tell them that it is for the best and the new man/ woman is " really nice. You would like him"
Worse still moving them in and expecting them to like it. 


What about when they do so much damage all on their own that when you say 
"Regardless of this your H/W is a good Mother/Father" they recoil in horror at you excusing a person and denying the kids reality that one of their parents, for the time being at least, is a deliberately and cruelly trying to manipulate them.
If I sound angry it is because I am. 

If someone just mentions "self esteem" I will go totally off my trolley.


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## LaQueso (Dec 30, 2012)

What Ing said. My children are dealing with watching their dad destroy the family so he can feel better cuz," happy parent is important". At the same time their dad is forcing them into activities they don't want to participate but they have no choice.

Also- just because a divorce is working out great for one couple with little damage to the children, might not be the same for your situation. Both parents need to be mature, not just one. My children seem to be adjusting and then they say something or do something that shows that it's only on the surface, they aren't, "ok".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Yeah but no one said to not tell the truth. What I'm saying is to remember that as much as you are hurting and your STBX is hurting...that your kids are hurting too! And that when you tell your kids vindictive things about their parent, you are telling them that part of THEM is <insert slur here>. 

The lesson is not "just be all smooshy and act like it's okay to commit adultery"!!!! NOOOOOO!! The lesson is really mostly aimed at those thinking of or on the verge of adultery who are telling themselves: "Well the kids are resilient. They'll adjust and be okay. In fact, they'll come to love the OP as much as I do and come to hate their other parent as much as I do." 

To those people...and to the Loyal afterward who is thinking of vilifying their cheating spouse to the kids...I say listen to this video. The kids WILL BE HARMED. It is reasonable to tell the truth in an age appropriate way, to explain what your beliefs are (and let your spouse address whatever their beliefs may be), and to not make your child's other parent out to be the devil incarnate.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Forest said:


> All I know is Uncle Buck said they (kids) were. Gus Polinski should have the final word on this.


Forest, you're thinking of my cousin, Buck Russell, but it was actually me that said that.

And let me also say this... Adult children don't always take their parents' divorce very well either.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Forest, you're thinking of my cousin, Buck Russell, but it was actually me that said that.
> 
> And let me also say this... Adult children don't always take their parents' divorce very well either.


Oh yeah, not I'm straight. That Buck is a rip-snorter, though.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> Yeah but no one said to not tell the truth. What I'm saying is to remember that as much as you are hurting and your STBX is hurting...that your kids are hurting too! And that when you tell your kids vindictive things about their parent, you are telling them that part of THEM is <insert slur here>.
> 
> The lesson is not "just be all smooshy and act like it's okay to commit adultery"!!!! NOOOOOO!! The lesson is really mostly aimed at those thinking of or on the verge of adultery who are telling themselves: "Well the kids are resilient. They'll adjust and be okay. In fact, they'll come to love the OP as much as I do and come to hate their other parent as much as I do."
> 
> To those people...and to the Loyal afterward who is thinking of vilifying their cheating spouse to the kids...I say listen to this video. The kids WILL BE HARMED. It is reasonable to tell the truth in an age appropriate way, to explain what your beliefs are (and let your spouse address whatever their beliefs may be), and to not make your child's other parent out to be the devil incarnate.


Onthese boards we tend to focus on the spouses (which is understandable) but the WHOLE family is devastated by divorce or infidelity. Children are the innocent victims and we all need to remember that. Good reminder Affaircare!


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

I watched some of the other videos on that site yesterday, had me bawling at my comp.


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Case by case imo. I appreciate that my parents divorced more than I appreciate them using me (as the youngest) as the excuse to stay together. 
They divorced the month after I graduated HS, and I moved 2800mi away and started living on my own at 18. 

My hope would be that each parent assesses their own situation and makes the best informed decision. The caveat to that is when the cheating g spouse takes that ability away from you. My dad cheated and married his AP, who was also my sixth grade teacher.


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## Fenix (Jul 2, 2013)

Yep, kids are collateral damage, for sure. The BS can't do a damn thing about that, except try not to be vitriolic about the spouse in front of the kids. Having recently being blamed for swaying my daughter's opinion on her cheating father, my response was pretty much an eye roll and a "Nope, you did that all by yourself!"


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Kids are note resilient. They are, like adults, forced into the very same situation as their parents; They move forward as time waits for no one. 

In most cases Divorces are brought on by either infidelity or abuse of some sort. Rarely do a coupe split because of their different views on sports, politics of Cola choices. It takes a lot to break a bond of marriage so the reasoning is a good one when used as a reference point for filing for divorce. Some people do split because, after how ever many years, they find that "Thing" they dislike that never changed after so many years of pleading and working with them to change and/or compromise these issues.

In this case the children have a chance to make it into adulthood unscathed or at least sheltered from the resentment or fall out from Divorce. 

As for the others, especially infidelity, the residual effects are permanent and not withstanding to these children's lives. They get to see not only their loved one hurt and betrayed but they also get the pleasure of seeing the new party introduced into their lives, which usually ends in failure since this new relationship is founded on lies, malice and betrayal. They get to be split from the very reality they came to depend on as normal and thrust into a world they will inevitably be forced to choose from. 

The father, if he was the cheater, will mostly ignore his children for his new toy only showing up when HE wants to fill that need to be seen as dad, no, an awesome dad, in his children's eyes. While the children in turn become emotionally starved from the father figure they came to know from day one. And no matter how hard a new guy will try the father will be able to trump nearly any good deeds the new guy with just a random visit, some gifts and a few other good time feelings, and again, flee from their lives with little to no communication.

Now while Dad is out and about with his new toy, mom is left doing all the cooking, cleaning, paying the bills, doctors appointments, laundry, playing both roles and trying like all hell to minimize the children's pain. Sure, she may get child support but life as it could have been, or should have been, is over. The same goals she had at one time are simply dead, unable to be attained in the same manner as she had hoped. She will also have the stigma of trying to find a partner to bond with who will be willing to accept and take on the role voided by her ex husband. 

The mother, if she is a cheater, can be either ruthless or apathetic to what is happening. Men can be as well but women tend to rewrite the marital history at an astounding rate to justify where they are in life. They will also cause far more collateral damage on the way out via cheating to their family's well being. They will cry, be coy and draw upon sympathy to get not only support but blessings from the affair and can be seen, sometimes, as a hero for leaving such a "God awful" marriage and standing up for themselves and their needs. 

But most, not all, woman always want this children to live with them and it seems to be just for monetary gain only. Honestly, women want to get their sex thing on and Jr. saying he is hungry tends to get in the way of this so what other excuse is their. Queue the tears, the testimony and profession of love in the court room and suddenly you have a social imbalance towards the mother since someone this upset and passionate must be a good parent. They burnt down the house they helped to build and got another while the inferno rages on from their actions.

Meanwhile, the man is the one being burnt up and such by this very inferno. He gets left with little as he more than likely pays child support, which he should, probably pays alimony, which is also warranted depending the circumstances, but still, he is now left paying for 2 lives, his and hers. All the while she gets to also thrive from whatever financial and other forms of support her new AP provides. The dad then gets to try to live on his own financially and then see's himself working more hours, sometime 2 jobs and in this he is simply unable to see his children since there are only so many hours In the week to do so. 

His children are punished by this economic demand, and last I checked we still need basic shelter heat and food for the bare minimum. There is no money left for toys, treats special occasion or anything else really. And since this "Fog" is still present in the WW the dad in some form or another gets bashed so she can justify her actions, if only for herself. 

Ah, yes, but these children will adapt now will they, but the very nature of what they adapt into will not be what was intended nor a healthy manner. Remember, adapting is another form of coping, and coping is dealing with a situation that causes a change in actions, behavior and emotional management. Some therapist say kids are using coping mechanism's during these events and so far I have yet to read of one instance where coping of any kind is absent and the children have been oblivious to what is happening to them.

They feel the pressure, the anxiety, stress and changes. Focus on the last word, change. Change is supposedly a good thing for people but rarely does it come under circumstances of our choice, and even when it does, it often times invites a environment so unfamiliar to us we sometimes pine for the way it was. Hell, ask baby boomers, is home life more easier to deal with now in terms of comforts and getting things done? hell yes it is.

But they will say it "Ain't like it used to be" often with a gleefully smile and a fond memory of once was. Now think of an emotionally undeveloped child who gets put thru a Divorce. They feel the same way yet the world they know now is not one they wanted or had choice in creating. So choice too has been removed. 

They are not resilient. Trust me.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Was a topic not long ago here with several WS touting that thier affair and subsequent divorced caused no damage to kids. Incredibly naive or perhaps they just don't cafe. Either way hopefully something like this will have them come to reality


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Was a topic not long ago here with several WS touting that thier affair and subsequent divorced caused no damage to kids. Incredibly naive or perhaps they just don't cafe. Either way hopefully something like this will have them come to reality


It is inevitable when infidelity destroys a marriage. I have never heard of a friends or anyone really where they exclaimed that their cheating parent made their life better, save for maybe having 2 Christmas day's. Of course that is not really a bonus.


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## Mr Right (Oct 5, 2013)

This website is also worth a look

How Could Divorce Affect My Kids? | Focus on the Family

How will Divorce affect my kids

Many years ago, the myth began to circulate that if parents are unhappy, the kids are unhappy, too. So divorce could help both parent and child. "What's good for mom or dad is good for the children," it was assumed. But we now have an enormous amount of research on divorce and children, all pointing to the same stubborn truth: Kids suffer when moms and dads split up. (And divorce doesn't make mom and dad happier, either.)

The reasons behind the troubling statistics and the always-present emotional trauma are simple but profound. As licensed counselor and therapist Steven Earll writes:

Children (and adult children) have the attitude that their parents should be able to work through and solve any issue. Parents, who have given the children life, are perceived by the children as very competent people with supernatural abilities to meet the needs of the children. No problem should be too great for their parents to handle. For a child, divorce shatters this basic safety and belief concerning the parents' abilities to care for them and to make decisions that truly consider their well-being.

Children have the strong belief that there is only one right family relationship, and that is Mom and Dad being together. Any other relationship configuration presents a conflict or betrayal of their basic understanding of life. In divorce, children [tend to] resent both the custodial and absent parent."
1

Research on Children and Divorce

While virtually every child suffers the lost relationship and lost security described above, for many, the emotional scars have additional, more visible consequences. More than 30 years of research continues to reveal the negative effects of divorce on children. Most of these measurable effects are calculated in increased risks. In other words, while divorce does not mean these effects will definitely occur in your child, it does greatly increase the risks. The odds are simply against your kids if you divorce.

Research comparing children of divorced parents to children with married parents shows:

Children from divorced homes suffer academically. They experience high levels of behavioral problems. Their grades suffer, and they are less likely to graduate from high school.
2
Kids whose parents divorce are substantially more likely to be incarcerated for committing a crime as a juvenile.
3
Because the custodial parent's income drops substantially after a divorce, children in divorced homes are almost five times more likely to live in poverty than are children with married parents.
4
Teens from divorced homes are much more likely to engage in drug and alcohol use, as well as sexual intercourse than are those from intact families.
5
Before you say, "Not my kid," remember that the children and teens represented in these statistics are normal kids, probably not much different from yours. Their parents didn't think they would get involved in these things, either. Again, we're looking at increased risks.

A few more statistics to consider:

Children from divorced homes experience illness more frequently and recover from sickness more slowly.
6
They are also more likely to suffer child abuse.
7
Children of divorced parents suffer more frequently from symptoms of psychological distress.
8
And the emotional scars of divorce last into adulthood.
9
The scope of this last finding – children suffer emotionally from their parents' divorce – has been largely underestimated. Obviously, not every child of divorce commits crime or drops out of school. Some do well in school and even become high achievers. However, we now know that even these children experience deep and lasting emotional trauma.

For all children, their parents' divorce colors their view of the world and relationships

for the rest of their lives.


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## hurtinginohio (Nov 18, 2014)

Thank you, I just sent the link to my WH and his enabler parents. I know they will think I'm just being manipulative, but I really feel they need to see it. It WILL affect our daughters' relationships for the rest of their lives, no matter how much he denies it.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

I don't think for a moment that a child wrote that letter to his parents!

I do think that divorce and using you children as pawns dose hurt them greatly. With that said honesty is the best policy.

If your spouse has cheated, or has done other things that has broken your marriage and family apart I think it best to tell your children an age appropriated reason for the divorce with out slamming the stbx.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

My parents stayed together for the kids and it did tremendous harm to all of us. Focus on the family has a very specific religious agenda; not that this is necessarily a bad thing but as someone that works with data and statistics for a living I've found that it's always necessary to keep in mind what the agenda of whoever put together the study was. Data can often be manipulated to say whatever one wants it say.

I divorced my nasty, abusive ex. Are my kids suffering because of it? That's hard to say because based on my experience with my parents they might have suffered anyway. But they are thriving..... they see their dad on some weekends which is about as much as he's interested. I've never put him down but I can say my older son has already figured out that dad doesn't parent. He doesn't mind spending the night but usually wants to come home after that. 

Fortunately I have a good job and am remarried so they have a dad, stepdad who does not try be dad, and finances are fine. Fortunately my ex and I get along ok, though it did take some time. My boys have asked me why we divorced and I've told them that sometimes things just don't work out because I don't want to tell them their father is a nasty pr!ck that thinks women are beneath him. 

In my view how well the kids do is a direct result of whether the parents behave like adults. I'd bet it's not cheating directly that wrecks kids lives but the selfish behavior that tends to accompany it. I have known a couple of people that left bad marriages for someone else but still behaved like parents and their kids turned out fine. 

But they didn't feel the need to stick it to their exes either, and that's how I was. I just wanted out of the marriage, not to blow up his life or alienate his kids. 

Adults not acting like responsible adults messes up kids, and cheaters often don't act like responsible adults.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> ...I've found that it's always necessary to keep in mind what the agenda of whoever put together the study was. Data can often be manipulated to say whatever one wants it say.


Thank you!!!


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> If you are cheating and you think your kids will adjust after the divorce, you NEED to listen to this:
> 
> When His Parents Got Divorced, This Kid Wrote Them a Letter, and It Is a *Must-Read* For All of Us
> 
> If you talk down about your spouse, you are telling your child they come from someone who is unlovable and wrong. That is unforgivable.


Which is why I never badmouth their mother to them.

But I will say this, when they get older and want to know exactly what happened, I will tell them how their mother slept with other men during our marriage. But only if they ask.


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

Never wrote on a thread before but been reading TAM for a few years . The question about " are kids resilient " can best and probably only be answered from those who have witnessed a parents infidelity and the crushing effect it as on there partner ,

My mother was a serial cheater , from the age of 5 to 16 , I saw the crushing result of this chiseled into my father face each day .

There are things in life that are worse for a young boy to witness ,than seeing his father he adores and idolises , holding his head in his hands and sobbing uncontrollable , there are worse things than watching the misery and total helplessness of a strong powerful man being totally destroyed , there are worse things than wishing that you will fall asleep at night and never wake up again , because you just cant deal with this sickening pain any more . There are worse things but not many .

Are Kids resilient to the effect of a parents affair , How can they be there just kids , and infact its worse because they carry it throughout their lifes . It affects every aspect of what and who they became .
If you dont believe me ask one that lived through it .


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Devonman said:


> Never wrote on a thread before but been reading TAM for a few years . The question about " are kids resilient " can best and probably only be answered from those who have witnessed a parents infidelity and the crushing effect it as on there partner ,
> 
> My mother was a serial cheater , from the age of 5 to 16 , I saw the crushing result of this chiseled into my father face each day .
> 
> ...


I pray that your Dad somehow recovered and lived a good life afterwards. he certainly didn't deserve what happened to him and sometimes, divorce leaves everyone better off


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

wmn1 said:


> I pray that your Dad somehow recovered and lived a good life afterwards. he certainly didn't deserve what happened to him and sometimes, divorce leaves everyone better off


Thanks for your concern WMN , unfortunately my fathers life was a sad one till his passing . My parents marriage was fairly compilcated as my mother was disabled from a major stroke when I was very young . He spent his time between taking care of her , me and my elder brother and working full time . Always looking forward to the day he could retire and take things a little easier , at that point still over 20 years away . Alas true to form fate stepped in once again 5 months before his retirement and dealt him a final sh#tsandwich by way of a fatal hart attack . Some people have all the luck , especially it would seam the good guys .

Your exactly right about " sometimes divorce is better " , I can remember from a young age wishing they would split up and divorce . Which takes us back to the original theme " Are kids resilient " . Only complete idiots or ar##holes would think any child could come through unscafted the tramatic events of watching a loved parent soul being ripped out and stamped on by the other (up to that point )equally loved parent .


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Does resilient equal unscathed? 

People, including kids, are all kinds of resilient; look at the crappy things kids overcome all the time. Most of us experienced difficulty or some kind of hardship as kids, and the ones who don't often don't know what to do when life doesn't go perfectly. We're all scathed, but we've come through it.

Does infidelity inflict some kind of special hardship that's somehow worse? Does it somehow scar kids worse than the csa I suffered at the hands of a family member? I doubt it. Kids ARE resilient, but we as adults should do all we can to spare them unnecessary hardship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

In reply Lifestooshort , as I wrote in my original post yesterday there are most definately worst things that a child can experince other than to watch a parents world collapse around them and witnessing their torment and pain over many years ,and sexual abuse of a minor from an adult is certainaly one off them . Im very sorry that you suffered this in your childhood .That being said I dont understand how any experince like yours or mine can ever be impiled as anything but a total negative in a young person life that can cause irrepairable damage . The whole " it toughen me up for the life ahead and made me the strong person I am " arguement seams utter BS to me . 

I would also like your take on the fact that if kids are so resilient to things throughout their childhood why do so many take their own lifes at a early age from such things as bullying at school and such like . Why do so many kids have to have councilling at an early age from perfessionals therapist for one reson or another and why do so many end up on perscription medication before they can take their first legal drink of alchol .

Where exactly is it written or said that kids are born with an in build resilience to emotional and mental suffering ?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Devonman said:


> In reply Lifestooshort , as I wrote in my original post yesterday there are most definately worst things that a child can experince other than to watch a parents world collapse around them and witnessing their torment and pain over many years ,and sexual abuse of a minor from an adult is certainaly one off them . Im very sorry that you suffered this in your childhood .That being said I dont understand how any experince like yours or mine can ever be impiled as anything but a total negative in a young person life that can cause irrepairable damage . The whole " it toughen me up for the life ahead and made me the strong person I am " arguement seams utter BS to me .
> 
> I would also like your take on the fact that if kids are so resilient to things throughout their childhood why do so many take their own lifes at a early age from such things as bullying at school and such like . Why do so many kids have to have councilling at an early age from perfessionals therapist for one reson or another and why do so many end up on perscription medication before they can take their first legal drink of alchol .
> 
> Where exactly is it written or said that kids are born with an in build resilience to emotional and mental suffering ?


Everything you describe I would say is attested to the modern society ideals of raising a child. Seems that those raised with the "spare the rod.. spoil the child" philosophy faired much better as they developed self esteem and learned at an early age that life isn't all rainbows and unicorns. I remember learning at an early age that not everyone wins every time and there aren't trophies just for participating. We send our kids to therapists and put them on drugs because society says we should. Our children are a product of our society and the new "ideals and norms" of good behavior.


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

To another point about the resilience of kids , maybe what you observe as resilience, could and most often probably is ,just afact of having no choice in the matter . Having no where to run and hide too , unlike an adult can . But then again how many thousand of children run away from their homes each year because they just couldnt bear it at home any longer , only to end up on the streets , many to fall into child prostitution and crime . Maybe these children just didnt build up their resilence levels enough .


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Everything you describe I would say is attested to the modern society ideals of raising a child. Seems that those raised with the "spare the rod.. spoil the child" philosophy faired much better as they developed self esteem and learned at an early age that life isn't all rainbows and unicorns. I remember learning at an early age that not everyone wins every time and there aren't trophies just for participating. We send our kids to therapists and put them on drugs because society says we should. Our children are a product of our society and the new "ideals and norms" of good behavior.


If you were happy to put your child on drugs just because society says you should more fool you . As for your "spare the rod , spoil the child " philosophy to get on in life I can only describe as sad , and something from the dark ages .

Personally I have never struck and only very very rarely raised my voice to either of my children , both of whom are doing very nicely at university . I call it being a good parent , and investing time and effort into their up bringing . 

I also have a philosophy which goes something like this , if my children can look back on their childhood and say " thankyou dad , that couldnt have been better " I will die a happy man , and I pretty sure they will have a better chance of being good parents and people than if I had taken a rod to them . 

Your arguement that no drama or trauma in their childhood does them more harm than good is astounding . I would list a hundred people from history that had a great childhood and went on to make the world a better place , but I feel it would be lost on you . Like someone once said " You cant argue with Stupid " I think he was a scientist or something dah !


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Devonman said:


> If you were happy to put your child on drugs just because society says you should more fool you . As for your "spare the rod , spoil the child " philosophy to get on in life I can only describe as sad , and something from the dark ages .
> 
> Personally I have never struck and only very very rarely raised my voice to either of my children , both of whom are doing very nicely at university . I call it being a good parent , and investing time and effort into their up bringing .
> 
> ...


So your arguments are that you are understanding and forgiving and that your children are doing wonderfully from your philosophy, yet you are calling me stupid and insulting me when I have done nothing of the sort to you. Sure doesn't seem very understanding and forgiving.

Obviously your reading comprehension is off as I never suggested placing a child on the medication. I don't even like to do medication for myself. I also didn't say that I condone corporal punishment, nor that I have practiced it, just that with the change in the mentality of society we have more issues with our children.

So I am not going to argue with you either as you can't fix your mentality obviously, which is everyone that voices an opinion opposite yours is wrong, exhibiting those ideals, and "stupid".

Good day sir.


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> So your arguments are that you are understanding and forgiving and that your children are doing wonderfully from your philosophy, yet you are calling me stupid and insulting me when I have done nothing of the sort to you. Sure doesn't seem very understanding and forgiving.
> 
> Obviously your reading comprehension is off as I never suggested placing a child on the medication. I don't even like to do medication for myself. I also didn't say that I condone corporal punishment, nor that I have practiced it, just that with the change in the mentality of society we have more issues with our children.
> 
> ...


Where exactly have I wrote anything about understanding and forgiving , I havent given any opinion on my feeling towards my mother anywhere so dont you dare try and use that BS as an attack on me . 

As for the medication issue it was you makeing sweaping general islations about society happy be put children on medication , without any facts to back this up . 

Lastly your total correct that I dont like your " spare the rod " philosophy because it amounts to the same as "its ok to give your KId a slap every now and then , it keeps them in line " its the same as " You have to whack them now and again for their own benefit " " it does them good , teaches them right from wrong " 
IT ALL AMOUNTS TO THE SAME THING , PHYSICAL VIOLENCE AGAINST A CHILD . of course you dont want to argue with me about the right or wrong of this ,because only a coward would every consider striking a child with his hand or a rod .Dont try and hide behind changes in society BS as to the reason you brought it up , if you dont beleive in it why you write it . 

As for my mentality , I notice you havent answered a single fact to what I wrote reguarding the examples for children doing terrible things to themselves because they cant face life any more , Why because your " Children are resilient " arguement doesnt stack up when presented with the hard facts .

So good day to you sir 
PS , Stupidity isnt a virtual


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Devonman said:


> In reply Lifestooshort , as I wrote in my original post yesterday there are most definately worst things that a child can experince other than to watch a parents world collapse around them and witnessing their torment and pain over many years ,and sexual abuse of a minor from an adult is certainaly one off them . Im very sorry that you suffered this in your childhood .That being said I dont understand how any experince like yours or mine can ever be impiled as anything but a total negative in a young person life that can cause irrepairable damage . The whole " it toughen me up for the life ahead and made me the strong person I am " arguement seams utter BS to me .
> 
> I would also like your take on the fact that if kids are so resilient to things throughout their childhood why do so many take their own lifes at a early age from such things as bullying at school and such like . Why do so many kids have to have councilling at an early age from perfessionals therapist for one reson or another and why do so many end up on perscription medication before they can take their first legal drink of alchol .
> 
> Where exactly is it written or said that kids are born with an in build resilience to emotional and mental suffering ?



Before I say anything else I want to say that I am sorry for all that your father suffered and for your suffering. 

As for kids taking their lives, both kids and adults take their lives for all kinds of reasons. But different people have different capacities to deal with hardship; why else does one kid take their life when a bully calls them names but others persevere through all kinds of horrible things to become productive adults. 

It's never good to inflict hardship to make a kid get stronger..... some is necessary to function in life and some is not. I am stronger in many ways for what I've suffered, but it's not something that should be inflicted for that purpose.

Some people are simply more resilient than others, and life happens. That's always been true. But the original issue was whether kids are resilient, and I stand by my assertion that they are. Of course hardship leaves scars, but that's life. If adults do the best they can that's all they can do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Devonman said:


> To another point about the resilience of kids , maybe what you observe as resilience, could and most often probably is ,just afact of having no choice in the matter . Having no where to run and hide too , unlike an adult can . But then again how many thousand of children run away from their homes each year because they just couldnt bear it at home any longer , only to end up on the streets , many to fall into child prostitution and crime . Maybe these children just didnt build up their resilence levels enough .



Kids are more vulnerable for sure, but plenty of adults deal with things regarding which they have no say in. That's a fact of life, and teaching kids that they don't control everything and the world doesn't revolve around them is a gift.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Everything you describe I would say is attested to the modern society ideals of raising a child. Seems that those raised with the "spare the rod.. spoil the child" philosophy faired much better as they developed self esteem and learned at an early age that life isn't all rainbows and unicorns. I remember learning at an early age that not everyone wins every time and there aren't trophies just for participating. We send our kids to therapists and put them on drugs because society says we should. Our children are a product of our society and the new "ideals and norms" of good behavior.


Your own words "those raised with the "spare the rod" spoil the child philosophy FAIRED MUCH BETTER as they developed self esteem . Clear support for this philosophy . 
Your own words " We send our kids to therapists and put them on drugs because society says we should " Where is this even remotely true .
Your own words " Our children are products of our society and the new ideals and norms of good behavior " Wrong our children are products of their parents and the buck stops there .
You seam to have a one answer fits all problems in life ."ITS SOCIETY FAULT "


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Devonman said:


> Where exactly have I wrote anything about understanding and forgiving , I havent given any opinion on my feeling towards my mother anywhere so dont you dare try and use that BS as an attack on me .


Wow. Never ,mentioned you mother, but you said you were gentle and understanding with your kids and handled them that way. I never mentioned your mother or your father and wasn't insinuating anything.

Once again reading comprehension is your friend.. not your enemy, so USE IT!



> As for the medication issue it was you makeing sweaping general islations about society happy be put children on medication , without any facts to back this up .


You brought up the same sweeping generalizations and issues about parents putting their children on meds and where is your presented proof??? Oh that is right, like every other argument on the net, you got there first, so your comments get to stand on their own merits and everyone else must provide proof or stand the wrath of being belittled and called names. With a STBXW that teaches I have seen it progress incredibly over the years, all you have to do is pull the data about children being diagnosed with ADHD/ADD and any variant of those afflictions, then compared to the prior generation coupled with the advent of the new drugs and there is your proof that it is a tried and true practice these days. Teachers are instructed when they have a child that is acting out to recommend them for counseling and evaluation. I have seen it in the 16 years my STBXW has been teaching that kids are being referred at record numbers.



> Lastly your total correct that I dont like your " spare the rod " philosophy because it amounts to the same as "its ok to give your KId a slap every now and then , it keeps them in line " its the same as " You have to whack them now and again for their own benefit " " it does them good , teaches them right from wrong "
> IT ALL AMOUNTS TO THE SAME THING , PHYSICAL VIOLENCE AGAINST A CHILD . of course you dont want to argue with me about the right or wrong of this ,because only a coward would every consider striking a child with his hand or a rod .Dont try and hide behind changes in society BS as to the reason you brought it up , if you dont beleive in it why you write it .
> 
> As for my mentality , I notice you havent answered a single fact to what I wrote reguarding the examples for children doing terrible things to themselves because they cant face life any more , Why because your " Children are resilient " arguement doesnt stack up when presented with the hard facts .


I never said that I agreed nor used that strategy, you just assumed. Once again READING COMPREHENSION comes into play here. I am just stating that since society has abandoned this ideal that children are more defiant than in past eras and cultures. Since you are using cold hard facts as a defense, where are they. You stated it several times about me defending my "opinions" (which is what they are and have always been stated as such) but you are claiming that "hard facts" will prove it, so provide some of these "facts" and back up your claims!! 

Only a coward would hide behind the internet and make false accusations and claims against others while belittling them. Step up and prove your statements if you are such the man to personally attack, of which I have done no such thing, just stating some thoughts and opinions and never anything posted directly at you without provocation.




> PS , Stupidity isnt a virtual


Isn't a virtual what?? Do you mean virtue or it isn't virtual?

If you mean it isn't virtual, than I completely understand and agree with this statement as I spend all day on the net for work and none of yours has leaked through to my side yet and infected me, it is staying all on solely on your side!!


If you mean a virtue, then you are right, as* yours* gives you no moral superiority here!


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> Kids are more vulnerable for sure, but plenty of adults deal with things regarding which they have no say in. That's a fact of life, and teaching kids that they don't control everything and the world doesn't revolve around them is a gift.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hi lifetooshort , Im glad you agree that kids are more vulnerable than adults , I do feel that adults do have a say in their lifes much much more than any child does . Only in extremely exceptional circumstanses would I say that an adult have no choice in their life , ie a spouse that is so totaly dominated by their partner out of fear , even then most will find the courage to leave . 
I would also say teaching kids that they dont control everything and the world doesnt revolve around them isnt so much a gift as simple standard parenting skills which certainly dont require anything more than time and comittment, . I have to believe that the vast vast amount of TAM readers recongise this , and have acheieved this without the so called "Rod of iron " technique .


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## Devonman (Sep 4, 2014)

Squeakr said:


> Wow. Never ,mentioned you mother, but you said you were gentle and understanding with your kids and handled them that way. I never mentioned your mother or your father and wasn't insinuating anything.
> 
> Once again reading comprehension is your friend.. not your enemy, so USE IT!
> 
> ...


Print the page where I said im Gentle and Understanding with my kids and I consider them wonderful .
As for proving any prove , you in you wisdom have done that for me ,by quoteing your STBXW and the record numbers of children she sends to counseling , dont you understand your argueing against yourself .
If you take my quotes from history by famous people about stupidity as a personal attack on you , even thou I never mentioned your name once , im afraid that something you need to deal with , READING COMPREHENSION


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Devonman said:


> Print the page where I said im Gentle and Understanding with my kids and I consider them wonderful .


Never said anything to the contrary, so what this statement proves is nothing. :scratchhead:



> As for proving any prove , you in you wisdom have done that for me ,by quoteing your STBXW and the record numbers of children she sends to counseling , dont you understand your argueing against yourself .


2 words for you: READING COMPREHENSION! 

Show me where i stated that my* STBXW ever sent any kids for evaluation*! You can't as I never stated it!

Also since when are my generalizations now considered proof of anything, as that is what supposedly started this disagreement, that I made sweeping generalizations. Proof is data and facts of which none have been provided, but now they are fine for meeting your needs. I ask again where is your proof to back your statements??



> If you take my quotes from history by famous people about stupidity as a personal attack on you , even thou I never mentioned your name once , im afraid that something you need to deal with , READING COMPREHENSION


Enlighten me then on where I went wrong in my reading comprehension here.

So you are telling me these are not personal attacks and insinuations as to my intelligence and bravery, but are in actuality quotes from famous people in history: 



> of course you dont want to argue with me about the right or wrong of this ,because only a coward would every consider striking a child with his hand or a rod .





> PS , Stupidity isnt a virtual





> but I feel it would be lost on you . Like someone once said " You cant argue with Stupid " I think he was a scientist or something dah


Gotcha, then! These were not in anyway attacks against my character or intelligence but just me being obtuse and overly sensitive and these are just the quotes of famous people in history.

I am a bit of a history buff (and definitely like to learn things new), so please enlighten me as to whom said each of these things and within what context, as it doesn't appear to be anything other than veiled insults from my viewpoints. If you can't, at least come out and be the man that you claim to be an own up to your insults!!


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Anyone else find it...ironic people are getting into a fight on a thread about kids in divorce situations?


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