# Am I being a horrible wife?



## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

Sorry if this turns into a long post but I would really appreciate feedback/advice.

I've been married 8 years, living together 12 years. We have two daughters ages 3yrs and 14 months. We also run our own business which often means me working 10-14 hour days, 6 days a week.

When we first got together, and I guess until I was pregnant with DD1, we had a good sex life, having sex generally 3-4 times a week on average. Then along comes babies (we started our own business whilst I was pregnant with DD1 - not really through choice but I was made redundant so options were limited). Since the children, our sex life has dwindled and we generally only have sex probably once every 2-3 weeks. Even then, generally, for me it is done to please my husband as opposed to me wanting sex. To be truthfully, I am normally just shattered and every minute havng sex is a minute when I could be sleeping. That may sound awful, but it is true. Trying to juggle work, home, kids etc is exhausting and when I climb into bed at 11pm the last thing on my mind is sex. Also, since having the children I have put on a lot of weight and generally feel very unsexy anyway. We don't have any friends or family nearby who can look after the girls for us, we don't get the opportunity to have nights out together without the children etc.

My husband cannot see my side of things at all. For me, it has turned into a vicious circle. The pressure of him wanting sex has totally turned me off. If I so much as turn over to cuddle him in the night, he thinks I want sex and then I get the guilt trip if I don't. I have tried talking to him but we don't get anyway and just end up going around in circles. Many a time I have found myself giving in to having sex with him just because he wants it even though I don't really enjoy it in the slightest as I have almost forced myself into it. I can only seem to enjoy sex if I actually wanted it in the first place.

Also for me, I find it hard that he doesn't show me any affection except when he thinks sex is a possibility. Gone are the days when he'd give me a kiss on the forehead or cuddle me on the sofa. Now the only contact we generally have outside of the bedroom is if he grabs my boob or my bum, which he seems to think is being affectionate but which I find it offputting. I keep trying to explain to him that affection outside of the bedroom would make me feel better generally and would help to relieve the pressure in the bedroom, but he doesn't seem to get it. My husband will watch porn on his laptop but doesn't self-pleasure which means he is ever more frustrated at bed time.

The weekend before last we had sex 3 times. Last weeked I didn't feel like sex (having worked 70hrs during the week) but I pleasured my husband by hand in bed as he was aroused - but then that was wrong because I didn't want him to touch me. I thought I was trying to meet in the middle but he didn't see it like that. Yesterday I worked 13 hours, got home from work at 9pm, grabbed some tea and went to bed about 11.15pm. I woke at 4.45am to have a wee and when I got back into bed, my husband tried to initiate sex and it turned into a row when I declined his advances.

My husband keeps saying "you won't let me near these days" and "why can't I touch you" and when I try to talk to him, we end up back at the same place.

I am feeling as though my whole relationship is being dominated by sex and I just don't know what to do. I feel like this is destroying my marriage. I do feel for my husband as I understand like all men he has needs and urges.

Please can someone give me an impartial view on this - should I force myself to have sex more often to please my husband? 

Many thanks if you have got this far!


Vic


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oh, Vic. I'm so sorry.

But sex is more important to men than you think. It's not just sex, it's the way they express and feel love.

So, no, I don't think you should force yourself, but I do think you should spend some serious time on why you don't want it. I know you're tired. We're all tired. But are you using "tired" as an excuse? Is sex not very good for you? In that case, maybe you need to show him (kindly and gently) what you like.

This will kill your marriage if you don't address it. You know the old saying, if the sex is good, it's 15% of a relationship, if it's bad, it's 95% of a relationship.

You need to figure this out. If you cannot figure it out on your own, I would encourage you to seek some counseling. This is a big deal. And I applaud you for seeking help!


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## ItMatters (Jun 6, 2012)

I could have written MUCH of your story. There are other issues that are interupting my desire for sex as well as my spouses lack of displaying any physical affection besides just directly tied to sex (or the ass grab and so forth, blech!)

We are in MC, but i finally said I don't want to have sex right now. DH was devastated even though he understood (sorta). The good news is that after about 4wks of no sex (and dh making some good efforts toward the marriage) I asked for sex and it was pretty nice. The PRESSURE of knowing he would ask for sex at some point and me not interested really made me dread it. 

Maybe you can suggest that only YOU initiate it for a while and then make sure you do at least 1-2x a month when you think you can enjoy it (earlier in the evening etc).

I was in the exact same spot as you (still not that far away from it either) and I know how miserable it is.

What can you control to help you? Get a babysitter 1x a month, not work as much, lose weight/get healthier, suggest counseling? It's a vicious circle and you will probably have to be the one to try to break it.

Good luck.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

lamaga is correct.



> Also for me, I find it hard that he doesn't show me any affection except when he thinks sex is a possibility. Gone are the days when he'd give me a kiss on the forehead or cuddle me on the sofa.


Indeed this is the case. Now imagine how your husband telling us, "Gone are the days she would initiate and love sex with me...." The fact he only shows affection except for when he thinks sex is a possibility, should be a sign that maybe sex should be a possibility a lot more? Do you want more affection from him? More attention? Well, give him more sex. That's how it works. It isn't a viscious circle, it's a circle. You will get out of the relationship what you put into it. If you initiate sex more, showing him you want him, he will in return show you more attention and affection. If you gave him more sex and he didn't have to worry about when he would get his next moment with you, he would be more open to hugging or cuddling you without needing sex. It's the fact you have left him completely desperate that makes him want sex whenever he gets touched or gets around you. You have rationed out sex and now he will take whatever he can get. It's like giving him a drop of water in the desert, of course he will always want water. If you give him a fresh lake, he will take the water whenever it's right. He will know it's always there and no feel the need to drink every chance he gets. Let him enjoy the water.

For men, sex is intimacy. Sex lets us know our wife still loves us. Sex lets us know our wife still accepts us and wants us. Sex makes us feel special. Everytime you reject his advances, whether you understand it or not, you are rejecting all of the above. In hindsight looking back on your life, are you going to be proud you worked 70 hours a week or are you going to look back and cherrish all the time you spent with your husband and family? Work is work. If you can find time for the bills, which you hate, find time for your husband, which you love. Stop thinking of sex as some selfish act your husband always wants, which makes you resent him. His need for sex is equivalent as your need to have a husband at your house, making you feel safe and secure to sleep at home at night. His need for sex is equivalent to the complacent feeling you get knowing you have kids and a family, a good job, and stability. These emotions you feel, are the same emotions your husband wants to feel, except he doesn't have that complacency because his needs are NOT being met. That isn't fair.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Have sex with your husband. Tell him for a while you need quickies, as you're tired, etc.

No one gets married to be celibate.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

VickiC said:


> Also for me, I find it hard that he doesn't show me any affection except when he thinks sex is a possibility. Gone are the days when he'd give me a kiss on the forehead or cuddle me on the sofa. Now the only contact we generally have outside of the bedroom is if he grabs my boob or my bum, which he seems to think is being affectionate but which I find it offputting. I keep trying to explain to him that affection outside of the bedroom would make me feel better generally and would help to relieve the pressure in the bedroom, but he doesn't seem to get it. My husband will watch porn on his laptop but doesn't self-pleasure which means he is ever more frustrated at bed time.


This is a problem, given that he used to be affectionate. That's happened in our home too... I kept repeating myself to him about needing affection outside of the bedroom (not the groping crap either), in fact I would point out perfect opportunities for him to do it (reaching around me to get something, or just sitting on the couch), and my H has caught on quite well (took a few months). It's pretty pleasant now and certainly something I missed more than I thought I did. And you're right, it does make you feel better overall about yourself, or at least it has for me.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

VickiC said:


> My husband will watch p*rn on his laptop but doesn't self-pleasure which means he is ever more frustrated at bed time.


You wrote that as if it (p*rn) doesn't bother you? He needs to cut that crap out.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Aristotle said:


> lamaga is correct.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which came first? The chicken or the egg? I'm sorry, I don't entirely agree with what you are saying... You are putting it squarely back on her to change this -- give him more sex and you'll get more affection, why not the other way around -- H gives more affection, he'll get more sex?


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Thunderstruck, he's getting sex twice a month if he's lucky. Of course he's watching p*rn. And I don't blame him.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

I completely understand how you feel. I could have written your post a few months ago. I have four little kids and they exhaust me. My husband and his sexual advances (and I can relate to the unending fondling) seemed like just another thing I had to take care of. 

BUT I've really been trying to change my attitude toward sex. One, I'm trying to get more pleasure out of it for ME. Two, I've realized that it really isn't fair to deprive him sexually. Ultimately, when you with hold sex, you are showing your husband that everything else is more important than him. 

I've taken it upon myself to initiate sex. These days, planning ahead works way better for me than spontaneity at the end of the day when I am absolutely wasted. In the grand scheme of things, it takes WAY less time to just have sex with your husband, than to wade through the endless arguments, tension, and sexual advances. If I initiate when I am in the right mindset, he is satisfied and I don't have to worry so much about having sex when I am exhausted and not in the mood. 

Our marriage is WAY better when we have regular sex. Obviously, I'm not sure how much sex your husband would want. My husband actually has a fairly low drive I think. We have been having sex about 2X a week, and he seems really content with this. He holds my hand on the couch, and we've had some awesome conversations for a change. Physically, I'm getting more out of it than I ever have in the past (I'm still working on that too).

You'll be amazed at how your marriage is stronger when you put sex on the front burner.


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## sculley (Jun 6, 2012)

I think he shouldn't expect you to turn on like a light bulb, for a woman its emotional so if he wanted it he should be willing to make you feel loved or at least try to romance or heat you up. He can't just assume you turn on like a light like men do. I do agree with Lamaga...being tired shouldn't be an excuse and honestly that could very well kill any want he may have of comprimising or meeting you halfway. Maybe he feels rejected... Also you not feeling sexy could have Mountains to do with your intimacy with ur husband. Maybe if you sat down and told him you are feeling emotionally hurt...maybe that you only feel like a sex object... Ya'll do need date night so I suggest you find someone to watch the kids (it's vital trust me...)


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Which came first? The chicken or the egg? I'm sorry, I don't entirely agree with what you are saying... You are putting it squarely back on her to change this -- give him more sex and you'll get more affection, why not the other way around -- H gives more affection, he'll get more sex?


Sorry Cherry but as another man, I agree with him

In my case, the affection was always there (both ways). When i realized the sex dropped off, I felt less motivated to provide the affection. I tried UPPING the affection too to see if that would help. It Did....for a week or two and then dropped off again

As I've said on a number of posts (quoting a commdiene) "A man is like a lineoleum floor. Lat him right and you can walsk on him for 40 years!"

OP is here asking for advice, not her husband so she's been given something she can do


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Of course he's not affectionate any more. Why would he want to get turned on (which he will), knowing you'll just reject him?


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Thunderstruck, he's getting s*x twice a month if he's lucky. Of course he's watching p*rn. And I don't blame him.


Doesn't seem to bother the OP, so I guess you're right. I've heard from other wives that this is close to cheating, or it is considered cheating.:scratchhead:

I know that my LD wife wouldn't be too pleased to find out I was hanging at p*rn sites.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I have a feeling your need for affectionate touch will resolve itself once sex is on the table.

From his point of view, the kids came along, there is an 800% drop in sexual frequency, you feel unsexy, and his attempts to have sex with you are being resisted so he can't help you feel sexy. On top of all this, he's expected to continue the affection as if he's in a fully satisfying relationship. 

He's in a tough place too is all I'm saying.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Thunderstruck, I don't care what you've heard or who you heard it from, looking at porn occasionally is not cheating.

Period. Sorry for the threadjack, Vic.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Which came first? The chicken or the egg? I'm sorry, I don't entirely agree with what you are saying... You are putting it squarely back on her to change this -- give him more sex and you'll get more affection, why not the other way around -- H gives more affection, he'll get more sex?


Because every person that has tried this has said it doesn't work. Sex is affection. LD women, as the OP stated, avoid any sign of affection lest their spouse interpret it as an invitation for sex. If a relatively satisfying sex life is not there, the kisses, hugs, attention, backrubs, texts, . . . cannot be there. 

Similarly, helping around the house more does not help either.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

SprucHub said:


> Because every person that has tried this has said it doesn't work. Sex is affection. LD women, as the OP stated, avoid any sign of affection lest their spouse interpret it as an invitation for sex. If a relatively satisfying sex life is not there, the kisses, hugs, attention, backrubs, texts, . . . cannot be there.
> 
> Similarly, helping around the house more does not help either.


It has been working in my home 

In fact my H's non sexual affection towards me in the last few weeks has made quite a difference and our frequency has increased. But who knows.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> Ultimately, when you with hold sex, you are showing your husband that everything else is more important than him.
> 
> I'm not sure how much sex your husband would want.


This is absolutely true and how you should think of things. Your husband is initiating sex because he wants it with you. by telling him no, aside from making him feel worthless and unloved, you are telling him his wants (they are needs, but lets just call them wants to be conservative) are unimportant to you, his happiness is unimportant to you. If you truly think that the 20-30 minutes 2x-3x per week is too much of a sacrifice, then think to yourself whether you really care.

As to how much your husband wants, I can assure you regardless of how much he'd like sex, he will just be sastisfied with your showing interest in him and wanting him - that is what he really wants, to be desired and loved.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Which came first? The chicken or the egg? I'm sorry, I don't entirely agree with what you are saying... You are putting it squarely back on her to change this -- give him more sex and you'll get more affection, why not the other way around -- H gives more affection, he'll get more sex?


Even if you are correct, what good does that do her - he isn't here, she is. So she can either wait for him to figure it our, or she can make a change to change the dynamic.

To the OP - one issue to remember is that for many men, when they don't have sex, it becomes all they think about. So when you reject, he think about it more, which causes him to press more, which makes you feel more pressure, which causes you to reject, and now we have a vicious circle. 

Consider setting up some scheduled sex dates, as well as some non-sexual initimacy dates. for example, sex twice a week, as well as cuddling twice a week with no sex expected. Get back in the habit of both of you working together on this.


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## ItMatters (Jun 6, 2012)

I've tried the more sex for him experiment and it didn't work out for me- went up to 2-3x/week and really didn't see him picking up any better behaviors, pitching in, being more affectionate etc so I didn't feel that my extra efforts at pleasing him had any other upside for me. 

(we're talking over 3-4m too, not just a few weeks)

But back then there was no conversation. Now there's discussion as well and he KNOWS I need more than what he's been doing- I see some changes and I want to reciprocate in ways HE appreciates.


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

ItMatters, discussion is good! I'm glad that things are on the upswing for you.

But I must point out, gently, that 2-3x/week is still starvation rations for most men. It may have been "more" but it certainly was not "enough".


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

ItMatters said:


> I've tried the more sex for him experiment and it didn't work out for me- went up to 2-3x/week and really didn't see him picking up any better behaviors, pitching in, being more affectionate etc so I didn't feel that my extra efforts at pleasing him had any other upside for me.
> 
> (we're talking over 3-4m too, not just a few weeks)
> 
> But back then there was no conversation. Now there's discussion as well and he KNOWS I need more than what he's been doing- I see some changes and I want to reciprocate in ways HE appreciates.


your just not into him.

do you orgasm is he good in bed?

on your death bed will you be sad that you neglected your husbands sexuall desrie for you? 

or if he quit desiring you how would you feel?


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

lamaga said:


> ItMatters, discussion is good! I'm glad that things are on the upswing for you.
> 
> But I must point out, gently, that 2-3x/week is still starvation rations for most men. It may have been "more" but it certainly was not "enough".


I think frequency is really a matter of circumstances. I think 2-3x per week is a baseline for demonstrating that you are making an effort (coming from someone who would like it 2-3x per day). But what throws me is the my "extra efforts" were not producing the desired results, so I do not know why I bother part. 

Like men who cook and clean expecting to get more, women cannot give sex to acheive a result, other than their husband's and their own general happiness. That is the sole reason for sex. If he is not meeting your needs, withholding or increasing sex is not the answer, as Itmatters has discovered, discussion is the answer.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Vic ~

Thanks for posting! It is awesome that you are reaching out for suggestions, help, and discussion - admitting that there is a problem is the first step in working toward resolving it.

So, I can empathize with your situation... and I understand being tired...oh boy, do I understand that.  Sex is a physical activity, and you actually can be too tired to be able to engage in it productively (like you could engage in it and not be able to participate as enthusiastically, but your H doesn't likely want that.  ) But, I can empathize with your H's situation too ... he likely craves affection and sex with you, even with your additional curves, and is sorely missing the intimacy with you that you two previously shared.

So, my suggestion would be to look at the priorities in your family, home, and sex life with your husband. You mention this is a family business you work for, and you have two very small, young children you have to raise as well. You need to sit down with your H and lay everything out and work a plan for how you can adjust all of the balls you are juggling... for how Vic can have a well-balanced "stool" where the legs of "employee/business owner", "family/children", "husband/love/sex" and "Vic alone" are more equally balanced. When one or more of those stool legs start to become wobbly or get shorter, the imbalance can cause quite a stir in your life.

Is the business doing well enough that you can hire additional help? Are there other employment avenues that can be explored? Can you time-share with a part-time employee so that you are working only half the time? Where do you both see your business going and growing? How do you both see it working in the time ahead when you have such small children? Does your husband help equally in the business and with the children? Ponder those kinds of thoughts for awhile in your own head and then sit down and have a calm, non-confrontational talk with your husband ... it should be couched in terms of wanting to improve your marital and family life...where the sexual/intimacy issue is one of the things (but not the only one) that needs to be discussed.

Next, start to look at things that may be consuming your time and energy that maybe don't need to. Is there anything you can cut back on during your day or streamline so that you could have some additional time ... time where you and your H could spend together, maybe taking a walk together or talking or sleeping or having sex.

Start to put together a plan with your husband (or come up with one yourself and present it to him if he refuses to work together on it with you). Coming up with that plan and starting to set some wheels in motion to resolve some of the issues that you've got in your life can go a long way toward helping you feel that you aren't just spinning your wheels. 

Best wishes.


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## happylovingwife (Jun 5, 2012)

Yes, you're not acting like a good wife in this department. I can say that because I was in your shoes not so long ago. The fact of the matter is that men get married partly because they want to have sex with you. This does not go away when you're tired. If you don't step it up, you risk losing him because you're not showing your love for him in the way he receives it. If some other woman comes along and shows him a modicum of lust, he's vulnerable. 

Here's what helped me...I also used to view sex as minutes of lost precious sleep. So I started initiating at 8pm when the kids were in bed already and I was wide awake. Our previous routine used to be dinner, bedtime for kids, tv for us, then bedtime for us. Our new routine is dinner, kids bedtime, sex, tv then bed. Make sex the priority. You'll be happier that you're not losing sleep and your husband will be ecstatic that you're initiating and are into it. Then his nonsexual affection will return (happened to me). 

When I started giving my husband regular sex, he turned from a good husband to a great husband. He was more patient of my faults. He showed me more affection. He praised me and complimented me more (something that doesn't come easily for him). He really began to appreciate me. Then the changes occurred in me, I started to like sex way more. I started to try new thing or bring back the things we had lost along the way (BJs for example). I began to like sex because I made my husband so incredibly happy and that made me happy. It really made our marriage better. 

Another thing that helped me was revving up my mind during the day. I'd think dirty thoughts and/or read novels with sexual tones. This got me ready for the night. 

The problem I see with you is that you have too much on your plate. Of course you're not a good wife. You can't be a perfect mother, perfect wife, and perfect worker. It's just not possible. Especially with children that young (mine are 4 and 1). Something has to give and what's giving is your sex life. You may have to tell your husband that you need to cut down on your work hours in order to feel sexual at night. He may not understand because men don't work that way but it's definitely true for at least some women (you and me). 

I'm sorry if I came across as preachy. I'm a SAHM and have time to do some of these things. I hope you can adjust your life in some way so that you can save this relationship with your husband before it gets too far gone. You are his only outlet for a sexual release. You are lucky that he is verbalizing how much this means to him. When he stops hounding you (without an improvement), then that means you're in big trouble.


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## boscogto (May 1, 2012)

Amen......if you are granted sex for behavior then you don't deserve to be married. Sex is to share love and give pleasure to ones partner. It should be unconditional and a priority of any relationship. So tired of hearing women wine about having to "have sex" like it's such a chore and Sooo much work. Please.....it's easy if you let it be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> Doesn't seem to bother the OP, so I guess you're right. I've heard from other wives that this is close to cheating, or it is considered cheating.:scratchhead:
> 
> I know that my LD wife wouldn't be too pleased to find out I was hanging at p*rn sites.


Then she's very selfish. She won't have sex with you, but you're not allowed to look at porn.

Hm. You can't look at her or porn. Are you a monk? no, you're not.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

YES. Make sex the priority. It's not a back-burner activity. It's kindof important.


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## ItMatters (Jun 6, 2012)

Not to threadjack- but to Chillymorn (quickly)

yes, hubbie is good in bed but with lots of other issues (feeling i'm doing almost everything in marriage from earning the dollars to doing all housework and most kidwork) I'm torn between trying to make it work and leaving as a viable option. More on the trying to make it work track ight now because hubbie has apparently realized that I am truly NOT HAPPY with our marriage and I'm serious that if he doesn't step up, I won't last a lot longer. He is stepping up and I'm doing my best to SEE what he is doing.

Vic- will your husband listen to you/work with you to try to find ways to get you some relief and you can up the sexual frequency?


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## cub!chy (May 7, 2012)

You are not a horrible wife, but you are acting like a bad wife, but the good news is you can turn it around. I have some news; I and most men prefer sex over food, clothing, house care, and anything else. The more sex we get the more we cuddle, and the longer we are without sex, the less cuddling and more animalistic we become, I don’t know why, but that’s just how it is. Being tired exhausted and kids are not an excuse for not addressing your partner’s sexual needs. You can communicate with him and try to arrange something, and he needs to do the same for you, but there is no excuse for any sex due to tiredness. I actually like it more when my wife is tired. If I am wasted and she wants it, I tell her that she needs to drive and I just coast. You can also do quickies as others have said, and jobs, oral. Ect. So, turn it around, become a great wife and provide what your hubby needs. Good luck.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Read "His Needs, Her Needs."

Right now you are feeling neglected. When women feel neglected, their libido decreases. He needs to work on being more affectionate with you (outside of just sex) and you need to work on having sex with your husband.

You need to meet halfway.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

happylovingwife said:


> Here's what helped me...I also used to view sex as minutes of lost precious sleep. So I started initiating at 8pm when the kids were in bed already and I was wide awake. Our previous routine used to be dinner, bedtime for kids, tv for us, then bedtime for us. Our new routine is dinner, kids bedtime, sex, tv then bed. Make sex the priority. You'll be happier that you're not losing sleep and your husband will be ecstatic that you're initiating and are into it. Then his nonsexual affection will return (happened to me).
> 
> When I started giving my husband regular sex, he turned from a good husband to a great husband. He was more patient of my faults. He showed me more affection. He praised me and complimented me more (something that doesn't come easily for him). He really began to appreciate me. Then the changes occurred in me, I started to like sex way more. I started to try new thing or bring back the things we had lost along the way (BJs for example). I began to like sex because I made my husband so incredibly happy and that made me happy. It really made our marriage better.


This is exactly what my wife did, and that is exactly how I responded. Our schedule also changed, to where sex became a part of our schedule, and nothing something I hoped to get before she fell asleep. 

In return my attention went from everything but her (and I didn't ignore her on purpose), to her and my kids. I do not know why I was drifting away, but I was. Lack of sex was never really an issue for me, but it was a lack of interest in sex. So my wife changed the schedule and changed her enthusiasm.

Cherry, as yes, the chicken or egg. I have no idea which came first and do not care. I know the OP should worry about what she needs to change and not turn this into a competition. If she wants to let him know she is making changes and if he likes the changes and wants it to continue, she needs some things too. That's fine. If he doesn't respond, she will have to move onto another plan, that doesn't have to do with with initiating sex a bit more. Like with me and happylovingwife's, making intimacy a priority worked, and it worked well.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

happylovingwife said:


> Here's what helped me...I also used to view sex as minutes of lost precious sleep. So I started initiating at 8pm when the kids were in bed already and I was wide awake. Our previous routine used to be dinner, bedtime for kids, tv for us, then bedtime for us. Our new routine is dinner, kids bedtime, sex, tv then bed. Make sex the priority. You'll be happier that you're not losing sleep and your husband will be ecstatic that you're initiating and are into it. Then his nonsexual affection will return (happened to me).
> 
> When I started giving my husband regular sex, he turned from a good husband to a great husband. He was more patient of my faults. He showed me more affection. He praised me and complimented me more (something that doesn't come easily for him). He really began to appreciate me. Then the changes occurred in me, I started to like sex way more. I started to try new thing or bring back the things we had lost along the way (BJs for example). I began to like sex because I made my husband so incredibly happy and that made me happy. It really made our marriage better.


I had to quote it again. It sounds so much better coming from her rather than me. She figured it out. My only question to my wife is, 'How long can this last?"

It really does bring back that first year. It takes work and a new positive mind set, but it works. Get rid of all the negative thoughts you have about sex, make it a priority, think positive, watch how everything gets better.


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## effess (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm sorry for your situation. 
My wife probably feels alot like yourself. She doesn't work as much, but her attitude to sex in general is close to you I would imagine. 
Even though I am close to your husband in terms of how I _constantly_ want/need sex from my wife, I can empathize with you. You guys are going in a vicious circle. There's no doubt about it and it will spiral downward. Your husband will either totally give up on you and tune you out completely or will have an affair and you will grow to resent him immensely. Unless someone steps out of this and makes an effort to make things change.
You mentioned how your spouse used to cuddle w/o an expectation of sex, its easier to not expect sex in those situations when you are actually getting _some_. At the same time, you were more open to sex when he put in that effort, built up that 'cuddle equity'. When life was simpler, this give and take happened organically, it didn't need to be contrived and purposeful, like it has to be now. 
You've both fallen into a rut that cannot be fixed now until the both of you put the other's need above your own. That is the situation you are in. 
When, my wife and I's sex life is in the dumps, my self-esteem, self-worth, my perception of our relationship is in the crapper. All her 'quirks' become massive obstacles to me, and she drives me up the wall. When things are good though sexually, I am patient, attentive, affectionate and helpful. 
You have to understand that sex is a HUGE DEAL to a man.

A HUGE DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot emphasize it enough. 

BUT he has to understand that you cannot expect a car to run without fuel. He can't expect a return to your former sexual lives without that time he put in bonding/cuddling/loving you. 

The other thing if there's ways to make your lives simpler outside of the bedroom, in terms of children work etc - do it. 

Until the both of you really try to understand each other's basic needs - this will not improve. 

You both need love and acceptance from your partner, how that love translates (him=sex, you=affection) to each other is the key.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Aristotle, you are so right. This is NOT a competition.

If you want things to change, change them. Do not keep score. By changing yourself, you can change how others respond to you.

Set down the pride and do things from love. Good things come.


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## miss smiley (May 3, 2011)

I can relate so well to this thread. We tried having sex on a regular basis (1-2x/wk). I had no idea that seems low to most! I've done this for 2yrs but started to resent it. I now believe that, maybe I really am just not into him. Maybe my love for him wasn't strong enough to begin witj. I think Vic should look at other possible reasons why she doesn't want it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Nevermind. I was too blunt.


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## happylovingwife (Jun 5, 2012)

miss smiley said:


> I can relate so well to this thread. We tried having sex on a regular basis (1-2x/wk). I had no idea that seems low to most! I've done this for 2yrs but started to resent it. I now believe that, maybe I really am just not into him. Maybe my love for him wasn't strong enough to begin witj. I think Vic should look at other possible reasons why she doesn't want it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Perhaps...

What turned me around was thinking about my beloved suffering in any way. Each morning when I wake up I think of one thing I can do to make his day a little bit better. It's usually very small things: make his coffee, cook something for dinner (totally new for me, I'm learning), make sure the kitchen is totally clean since it's his pet peeve, etc. Some wives do all these things and then more! They are truly amazing in my eyes. I'm far from a domestic goddess. However, their husband don't appreciate them because they aren't getting any sex. My husband tells me, "I could have asked for a better wife and mother. I thank God for you every day." And as you can see, I'm the furthest thing from June Cleaver. 

The thing is that some men would still pick me apart for all my faults. That is why it's important to choose wisely. Choose someone that loves you for you. Then treat the good man you picked well by making sure you put his needs (not just sexual) high on the priority list. As I've matured, I've come to realize that true love is not a feeling. It's a way of thinking about them where you WANT to make them happy. Until I realized this, I knew I felt love for my husband but I didn't show it well nor did I understand mature love.


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

What worked for me:

Told my wife, I want to be able to touch and cuddle with you without the expectation of sex... Because thats what you like and need. I hope you can reciprocate with what I need. Guess what... it turned around fast. We are intimate almost every night, we have sex 3 to 4 times a week. It's liberating for her to know that EVERY time I cuddle with her, it does not have to lead to sex, and for me, to know that when she cuddles, that sometimes it could lead to sex... this gives her the chance to initiate.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

thunderstruck said:


> You wrote that as if it (p*rn) doesn't bother you? He needs to cut that crap out.


Christ, now he`s sexless AND can`t even watch porn!!

Go ahead...push the whole marriage right over the edge.

lol.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm not even going to try to enter into this tit-for-tat conditional love kind of debate. It's ridiculous and will get you nowhere. You shouldn't have to live on any conditions and shouldn't love on any either. I know you mentioning that your husband doesn't show any affection is what you think you need. I'm afraid it isn't. That he doesn't is just another source of resentment. But, if he did it, you would appreciate it, but you still wouldn't feel like having sex with him. Him showing you more attention/affection will make you feel more obligated in terms of feeling you need to return the favor since he's finally making an effort. You still won't want to though for the same reasons that you don't want to now, with the exception of him showing more affection. Will you be less tired or less self-loathing just because he hugs you more?

I'm also not going to suggest you change your attitude about your husband or about having sex. That won't get you anywhere but more resentful. You noticed the woman that said it worked for her marriage is a SAHM. It's great that it worked for her, but what good does that do you?

What I AM going to suggest is you get ahold of yourself and take control of your life. No one else can do that for you but you. In other words, work on VickiC. You need some rest, woman. You need to have less responsibility. You need some time just for yourself. Resist if you want, but ask yourself these questions: As much as you work, what kind of mother do you think you are being for your children? If you keep on this path, where do you think you will be two years from now? One year from now? What I predict is you will be yelling at your wild asss kids (if not already) and well on the road to divorce. You and he won't be able to stand each other by then.

You can't fool someone who has been in your shoes, so don't even try to tell me you are a great mother. I learned the hard way there are only 24 hours in the day and as often as I tried to eek out one more hour, I only grew more tired. I didnt wake up until I had a car accident because I couldn't figure out why that cross-traffic car wasn't stopping at MY stop sign. I just kept driving and thinking "He's going to stop." It was after he broadsided me that I looked up and realized the stop sign was mine even though I saw it as I was driving past it. Yes, I actually thought he was the one who was going to stop. I was running on adrenaline and nothing else, and I didn't even realize all the things I was doing that was just as ridiculous as causing that accident. I thought I was raising my daughter, but I didn't spend any time with her. I didn't even realize I was not raising her and teaching her things while I was busy fussing at her for all the things she didn't know not to do. I was terribly impatient with her. I also didn't realize how bad my attitude was. I wasn't angry all the time, so I didn't know I was NOT okay, but I often complained about normal every day things and made work my source of contention. My job is something I loved, so this was abnormal to say the least. It took my mother to gently ask me to take some time off work. She didn't criticize. She didn't try to make me see the error of my ways. She just knew. And now, I'm telling you. I'm telling you because you came here to complain about normal every day things, and you're making a loving relationship with your husband out to be something that is an intrusion on your life. Do you see what I mean? 

Please listen and put a stop to this. I know how easy it is to fall into a rut and to feel like you are sooooo needed at the business that it won't survive without you. But it will. Find a way to make it. Refuse to allow for one more day to be a slave to that kind of obligation and cut down to 30-35 hours a week so you can re-direct your focus on yourself and your family. Once you are rested, you will see all the things you neglected to appreciate. You won't be so quick to yell at the kids, and you won't resent your husband's desire. I'm not saying you have to accept that he treats you like an object. I'm simply saying you will look at things differently and won't be so dismissive. 

It doesn't matter what you do for yourself so long as you are able to get proper rest, but do plan and be determined to do things just for you. It is not your husband's responsibility to make you feel good about yourself. That has to begin within you. In the frame of mind and constant state of unrest you are in, there is nothing he could do anyway that would satisfy you. You'll just keep complaining about all the things he still doesn't do.

There are no super women. Many of us women fall into thinking we can do it all, have it all, and be everything to everyone......only to find it isn't possible because most of what we do is half done. Something has to suffer, but you're making the wrong decision to allow it all be left to chance. The toss up comes down against your family. Your children need you. Your husband needs you. And, you need to feel good about Vicki. When you do this, you will notice a big difference in your sex drive because you'll have a different outlook about everything.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Once or twice a month might be tolerable to a man for a short time.
The groping needs to stop 100 percent
He needs to give you a lot of non sexual affection 

And you need to recognize that sex 1-2 times a month is a severe starvation diet for a healthy man. 

As for who initiates and how - make sure you work it so as to minimize rejection. Rejecting your H in the midst of frequent sex - is no big deal. Rejecting him when he is already tense from lack of frequency is very hurtful. 

My general observation with these situations is that they begin because the man is doing/not doing a bunch of stuff that creates issues. The path they follow is sadly this: he addresses the issues my as he can - and in return gets a very minimal amount of sex.

UOTE=ItMatters;819583]I could have written MUCH of your story. There are other issues that are interupting my desire for sex as well as my spouses lack of displaying any physical affection besides just directly tied to sex (or the ass grab and so forth, blech!)

We are in MC, but i finally said I don't want to have sex right now. DH was devastated even though he understood (sorta). The good news is that after about 4wks of no sex (and dh making some good efforts toward the marriage) I asked for sex and it was pretty nice. The PRESSURE of knowing he would ask for sex at some point and me not interested really made me dread it. 

Maybe you can suggest that only YOU initiate it for a while and then make sure you do at least 1-2x a month when you think you can enjoy it (earlier in the evening etc).

I was in the exact same spot as you (still not that far away from it either) and I know how miserable it is.

What can you control to help you? Get a babysitter 1x a month, not work as much, lose weight/get healthier, suggest counseling? It's a vicious circle and you will probably have to be the one to try to break it.

Good luck.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## *needaunderstand* (Jun 11, 2012)

i had a simular situation with my boyfriend. anytime that i didnt want to have sex or the longer i waited, he thought i was attracted to someone else. he thinks groping is a way to turn me on because that kinda stuff turns him on and that was the reason for that kind of attention. we arnt doing so good right now. but as far as sex goes, to keep him from bugging me, if i just have a quickie once a week, it seems to tame his beast. the porn is only gonna make him more sexually frustrated. massaging can help relax you and also get you into a more giving mood. maybe you can trade a good massage for some quickie. im sure he will just be happy to get some.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

If you're not sexually attracted to your spouse/boyfriend, why be with them? 
Wouldn't you rather be with someone you're attracted to?
Don't you think he(/she) would be happier with someone who is sexually interested in him(/her)?


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## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

You've received some lovely advice already...all of varying shades and perspectives...and so much of it borne out of personal experiences that are palpable...that's why this place is so wonderful... anonymity begets utter honesty

*Aristotle* gives you a husband's rebuttal 

*Happylovingwife* gives you the results of her experience

*River *offers some perfectly sensible advice on the motherhood-martyr complex

_Seriously how did people ever manage before the internet?_

Here's the thing: You're right in asserting that this is a vicious (or at least, never-ending) circle/cycle, a chicken or egg dilemma, a paradox...an issue in which you and your husband will naturally find yourselves at cross-purposes...

That's evident from the differing responses you've received...there are wives who share your plight...and husbands who have plights of their own...

You stated that you've tried to discuss this with your husband before

_But have you been as candid as the responses in this thread?'_

_What would be the effect of having him read all of this?_

You need *affection* to be interested in *sex*... and (presumably) he needs *sex* to be interested in *affection*

Neither of you is wrong or right, horrible or wonderful...*both* of your feelings and views on this matter are valid...

So whats the answer?

Meeting in the middle....You *MUST* come to fully appreciate your husband's perspective, he *MUST *come to fully appreciate yours...anything less and you've laid the breeing ground for dissatisfaction and *resentment*...

Ultimately, you'll *both* have to compromise your respective positions in some way ... furthermore, you *both* have to feel *the other *has compromised to an *equal *extent...(though how you establish this is totally up to you)...

But it starts with total honesty and all cards laid on the table (reading this forum?)...and it starts with a *mutual acknowledgement* of the validity of one another's opinions

(also, the points that River focused on in her post are certainly worth considering and add another layer to fully addressing this issue)

Best of Luck!!


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Wonder where VickiC is and if she's coming back?

I think this sounds a lot like my situation.

Babe, you aren't sexually attracted to him. You probably made him that way - probably not intentionally. He'll need to change. He can change in spite of your actions that made him that way, but it might help if you encouraged him more and discouraged him less.

And I'm not talking about whatever weight you've gained. He doesn't give a crap. He gropes you, that's enough confirmation that he's still sexually attracted to you.

I'm just going to make it simple. If you need persuasion I can do that, but I'm at work and my days are busy. This story, as i said, is like my own and many others. 

Have him read Married Man's Sex Life. Then wait. Trust me.


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Read "His Needs, Her Needs."
> 
> Right now you are feeling neglected. When women feel neglected, their libido decreases. He needs to work on being more affectionate with you (outside of just sex) and you need to work on having sex with your husband.
> 
> You need to meet halfway.


2 questions for you:

Please fill me in on this book, I bought it among others and haven't read it... I'm trying to read 5 Love Languages and I'm bored out of my mind, I feel like I got what I needed from reading the table of contents and the rest of it is selling the content you could get with just hte table of contents.

Second... I saw a personalized license plate yesterday - coincidence I'm guessing. It was on a Lexus. I guess I don't actually have a question, it was more a remark.. Feels a little wierd when ya see things in real life that remind you of ppl on the internet.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

VickiC said:


> Please can someone give me an impartial view on this - should I force myself to have sex more often to please my husband?
> 
> Vic


You should set up your life so that your family can be a family, you can be a mother to your children and a lover to your husband. Working 14 hour days makes all of this impossible.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

tacoma said:


> Christ, now he`s sxless AND can`t even watch p*rn!!
> 
> Go ahead...push the whole marriage right over the edge.


Shyte, you guys have convinced me. I'm watching p*rn tonight. :smthumbup:


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Just go have sex. Srsly.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Cherry said:


> It has been working in my home
> 
> In fact my H's non sexual affection towards me in the last few weeks has made quite a difference and our frequency has increased. But who knows.


That's good for you but again, which came first? His helping more or the sex?

Like I said, it worked for me too (for a while) and I kept up my end of the bargain (no pun intended) and she didn't


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Toffer said:


> That's good for you but again, which came first? His helping more or the sex?
> 
> Like I said, it worked for me too (for a while) and I kept up my end of the bargain (no pun intended) and she didn't


My H has always helped around the house, that's never been an issue  What I was needing was more non-sexual affection, he did the whole grabbing the butt and boobs thing occasionally... major turn off.

Sure my H needs sex to feel loved, well I need affection to feel loved. And it's not some tit for tat thing, or keeping score, or whatever... *it's the difference between feeling sexually used and feeling loved for ME*. When my H would only feel the need to touch me when he thought he stood a chance of getting laid, I am sorry, but I felt used... That is a turn off to me. 

I haven't felt a desire to have sex in a while*... I can remember the day (just a few months ago) when I felt that desire again, I mean I actually got horny... Where did it come from??? My H reaching for a freaking cup in the cabinet and he stopped and put his arms around me and started kissing me gently on my neck. I loved that moment. And if our twins weren't standing there watching us... Anyways.

Could Vicki up her frequency, yes, I agree she could. And I suggested she continue repeating to her H her request and need for more non-sexual affection until HE gets it.

ETA: *a myriad of issues


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Which came first? The chicken or the egg? I'm sorry, I don't entirely agree with what you are saying... You are putting it squarely back on her to change this -- give him more sex and you'll get more affection, why not the other way around -- H gives more affection, he'll get more sex?


Two things:

1) They should both be stepping up their games together. Neither should come first or, at a minimum, an improvement by one spouse should be met in very short order by an improvement in the other.

2) My gut tells me that the OP's lack of sex drive came before her husband's pulling back in other areas. In general, guys are used to delaying their own gratification a bit and only pull back after a mismatch in relationship effort has persisted for some time. Specifically to this situation, most of the OP's reasons for not wanting sex have nothing to do with her husband's treatment of her:
* She got laid off
* Her job prospects were poor so she feels she has to put 70 hours a week into her own business.
* She gained a lot of weight after having two kids and feels unsexy (nothing said of husband complaining about her weight).

It seems like her complaints about husband cooling off are almost an afterthought - coming at the end of her discussion - which IMO gives a clue about the sequence of events.

Of course, we can note that this started while she was pregnant with the first child, yet she found the motivation to have enough sex to get pregnant a second time (something that probably would not happen that fast if they were only having sex every 2-3 weeks back then). This would be a huge red flag to me as a guy "She had no problem finding the time for a second pregnancy but now I'm cut off...".


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Sex and affection...whoever withdraws theirs first has to be the one to return it. If he withdrew affection and she responded by withdrawing sex then I agree with Cherry that he has to return the affection first. But if, as I suspect is Vicki's case, she withdrew sex and he responded by withdrawing affection then it's not reasonable for him to return the affection first. After all, the last time he showered her with affection, she withdrew sex. 

It seems that she thought she could withdraw sex and he would continue to treat her like a princes. And when he stopped treating her like a princess she used that as an after the fact excuse to justify why she withdrew sex in the first place. If she wants the princess treatment back she'll need to be the one to make the first move.

If I'm wrong and he stopped the princess treatment while he was still getting sex, then HE will need to make the first move to restore the balance. Oh, and if he did that....he's an idiot.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Acorn said:


> On top of all this, he's expected to continue the affection as if he's in a fully satisfying relationship.


Absolutely.

I'm not calling out anyone on this thread, but in general (not just here but IRL as well) there is a pervading sensibility that the man should be the rock that rarely if ever falters in his provision regardless of circumstance, while the woman is entitled to a lower standard of contribution that may partially be based on whim or self-concept.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

IndiaInk said:


> You've received some lovely advice already...all of varying shades and perspectives...and so much of it borne out of personal experiences that are palpable...that's why this place is so wonderful... anonymity begets utter honesty
> 
> *Aristotle* gives you a husband's rebuttal
> 
> ...


An excellent first post IndiaInk!


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Just go have sx. Srsly.


Did...this morning. :smthumbup:

On p*rn and s*x...a few times, after my LD W shot me down several times in a row, I've said, "Okay, I guess I'll go watch p*rn and take care of my own business." That's generally enough to get her off the sofa and running to our room.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> As to how much your husband wants, I can assure you regardless of how much he'd like sex, he will just be sastisfied with your showing interest in him and wanting him - that is what he really wants, to be desired and loved.


You know, I don't think that's necessarily true.

I hear lots of people spew the sentiment that men are oversexed, men are inappropriately using sex as a barometer of the relationship, etc. The truth is, guys with a normal (or higher) sex drive simply need a certain frequency and quality of sex in a relationship to be happy. No amount of home-cooked meals, "quality" time, cute little notes or gifts, etc. will ever substitute for sex for a guy with a fairly strongly sex drive.

To tell someone otherwise is just doing them a disservice. My ex got some bad advice and learned that the hard way.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ItMatters said:


> I've tried the more sex for him experiment and it didn't work out for me- went up to 2-3x/week and really didn't see him picking up any better behaviors, pitching in, being more affectionate etc so I didn't feel that my extra efforts at pleasing him had any other upside for me.


Well, you made an attempt at the frequency of sex. But, how was the quality? Were you into him? Did you initiate or just say "no" less frequently? Were you enthusiastic (nice lingerie, oral, toys, whatever floats his boat)?

Don't mean to be TMI about it, but the quality of the experience matters.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> If you're not sexually attracted to your spouse/boyfriend, why be with them?
> Wouldn't you rather be with someone you're attracted to?
> Don't you think he(/she) would be happier with someone who is sexually interested in him(/her)?


I agree, as would most men. It is cut and dried - someone to whom you are not sexually attracted is not relationship material.

But, for women it is not so clear cut. I have heard and seen women give several other reasons for dating / marrying a guy:

* Desiring a family (and someone to help raise it)
* Financial stability
* Escaping a bad current situation
* Feeling shame for pre-marital sex
* Prestige (i.e. my hubby is a doctor / scientist / professor).


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Yeah, I get that, DTO. Unfortunately.

If any of those are the primary incentives for being in a relationship, there's a real disinecentive for honesty - someone who wants a family with someone they're not attracted to would probably be 'foolish,' from a self-interested perspective, to say "I'm not attracted to you but I want to be in a relationship with you."

Which is a shame, because even most people who aren't attracted to their spouse/partner at all desire sexual exclusivity from the partner.


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

WOw what a mixed bag of responses which seem to range from telling me I should leave my husband to telling me to have sex with him as and when he asks.

I appreciate the time people have taken to respond. It is certainly interesting reading!

To clear up a couple of points

- I only work long hours because I have to, not through choice at all. We are still paying off some of my husbands debts from before I met him, coupled with other debts run up whilst he was unemployed for 3-4 years. I have always been the main bread winner and this has continued since we have had children, with him being the main carer to the children. Not ideal but the best we can do with our circumstaces.

-I don't really like him watching porn, but at the same time, I know it is not fair on me to moan at him for doing so when I accept I am probably not meeting his needs at the moment. What does upset me is when he secretly watches porn downstairs on the laptop (which I am in the room working on my laptop or eating tea etc) and then expecting sex from me as soon as we go to bed. It is as though he is turned on from the porn and not anything to do with wanting me sexually as his wife.

-My husband has never been particularly tactile or phyisically affectionate, although this has hit an all time low since I got pregnant with our first child (incidentally, the lack of affection he has shown diminished long before my sex drive). It's been probably 4-5 years since we cuddled up on the sofa together, as my husband prefers his "own" sofa.

-Trying to talk to my husband about the matter goes nowhere to be frank. I try to talk, he just clams up and goes all defensive and always put the blame back on my doorstep. I am not perfect, never have I pretended to be, but I can't help it if I don't get turned on my someone grabbing my boob whilst I do the washing up!? I get upset about the matter and end up in tears and he doesn't seem bothered.

-I totally "get" that he doesn't like the rejection of me saying no, but at the same time, it is hard for me to get my head around me getting into bed, him moving over a cuddle, him starting to touch me, me telling him it is my time of the month so he rolls over, turns his back on me and goes to sleep on the other side of the bed.

I wish I could make myself open to having sex 2-3 times a week as it would solve a lot of problems and help reduce the stress levels in my relationship but I so struggle. I am going to try harder to let go in order to please him as I know someone has to take the first step.




Vicki


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

If you are working these long hours becuase you are the breadwinner, it will be impossible for him to sexually attract you... He needs to mind his side of the bioligical street if he wants you to want him.


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## wife29 (Jun 12, 2012)

I have felt the same exact way as you. I had absolutely no sex drive. He thought I didn't want him, but I really didn't want anyone and was more than happy to never orgasm again. However, when my husband said he wanted a divorce I realized that things had to change. Sex shows my husband that I love and want him. What I did was start in the morning thinking about how things used to be between us. I would think about it all day to get myself into the mindset of wanting sex at night. The book "50 Shades of Grey" would help me a little too.  My sex drive has finally returned and things are quite a bit better in my marriage. He has started looking for ways to make me happy as well.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

yep your the head of the house by default and its not sexy for most women to be the main wage earner.

every husband I know that makes less than their wife has this problem. not saying there are no women that would be ok with it but .............. not many and alot of the one who think they could be ok with really arn't.

he needs to activly be looking for better employment or how to make extra income. espically since he came into this marriage with a fair amount of debt. 


hell I'm resentfull and I ani't even married to him.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Hicks said:


> If you are working these long hours becuase you are the breadwinner, it will be impossible for him to sexually attract you... He needs to mind his side of the bioligical street if he wants you to want him.


Interesting. I have never thought about that. But yeah, I could see some resentment if my H got to be a SAHD, all the while my dream of ever being a SAHM got further and further away. 

Vicki - you mention your H's debt from before you got married and how he was unemployed... Built up resentment spanning a few years. Perhaps?


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

VickiC said:


> -I totally "get" that he doesn't like the rejection of me saying no, but at the same time, *it is hard for me to get my head around me getting into bed, him moving over a cuddle, him starting to touch me, me telling him it is my time of the month so he rolls over, turns his back on me and goes to sleep on the other side of the bed*.


I can be hopeful this will shut these people up telling women to "just do it" and making them all the blame and responsibile. Alas, I know it won't, but I can dream someone will get the clue they need to stop being as crappy to these women as the women's husbands are. At least it will help you and other women to understand you are not at fault for lack of desire and how he turns you off and makes you resentful.


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## miss smiley (May 3, 2011)

Vicki- my husband did the same thing too! Cuddled up if he thot we'd have sex and then roll over and leave me alone if I said it was that time of the month! It even went so far as him documenting when I was on it and when he'd try again (I read his journal). I wish you luck on trying to not let it bother you. I tried to ignore it too but I started to feel used and resentment built. I took sex off the table for awhile. I just can't give and give w/o the closeness. I don't know what to do now though. We're currently trying to build that closeness but so far, it's a slow process.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happylovingwife (Jun 5, 2012)

River1977 said:


> I can be hopeful this will shut these people up telling women to "just do it" and making them all the blame and responsibile. Alas, I know it won't, but I can dream someone will get the clue they need to stop being as crappy to these women as the women's husbands are. At least it will help you and other women to understand you are not at fault for lack of desire and how he turns you off and makes you resentful.


I think that's unfair to take that attitude with regard to this thread. There have been many thoughtful and reasonable responses.

I already pointed out the difference between the OP and my own situation in both my posts. I am fully aware that working 70 hr weeks is going to totally affect how well she can force herself to feel sexual toward her husband (notice I"m not saying just do it, I think she should work to GET INTO IT not just lay there). I pointed out that she can't be everything. 

She really didn't give us much info in the OP. Now I feel like I know more. Now I question, Vicki, do you LOVE your husband still? The way you talk about him, I'm not feeling the love shine through your posts. If you have fallen out of love then it's understandable why you would reject him. I just think you have to be honest with yourself about this. If you have indeed fallen out of love, maybe you don't care that your husband might be more vulnerable to temptation (especially now that you say he's out of work since that drastically lowers a man's self-esteem and he's going to be looking for someone to reaffirm him even more) and is feeling misery that can be easily corrected with your attention for 20-30 minutes. 

I think wives that have chosen well and really love their husbands should force themselves to have sex. If you value your marriage, then you will put your spouse's needs and desires over 30 minutes of tv time or whatever else. It's supposed to be fun after all. If you aren't feeling like you love your spouse and frequent sex doesn't address the problem after 2 months (creates intimacy) or so then there are bigger issues than sex that need to be addressed.


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## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Vicki- I think I understand part of your problem because both my wife and I own a business. Sometimes I had to wake up at 3.00AM and go until 10.00Pm in the night. My wife worked very hard too. And the sex drive went down. [ We dont have kids ] 
When you carry so much of the financial burden,its hard to be sexually attracted to him. If things don't change,you may end up being resentful and worse yet, separated. 
What worked for me is that I was still affectionate. She never complained but I knew how she felt.
Maybe you can convince him [ Use some of you God given * female * talents ] that he needs to firstly schedule some time for love making and sex. Tease him, take a shower together before bed,let him soap your back and body, play with him tell him if he is a " good boy " he will get some more at 3.0AM in the morning when he's 
" up " and just wants to release. And yes sometimes you have to take matters " into your own hands" so to speak.
Do everything in your power to get him back to where you all were before the child.
Keep trying to talk to him.
I think his little porn habit is making you feel even more un-sexy. Tell him about it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Vicki,
I really do feel for you. If my wife would not have non sexual affection with me, I would not have sex with her. And I am the high drive spouse. Touch just seems so basic to me. 


UOTE=VickiC;823102]WOw what a mixed bag of responses which seem to range from telling me I should leave my husband to telling me to have sex with him as and when he asks.

I appreciate the time people have taken to respond. It is certainly interesting reading!

To clear up a couple of points

- I only work long hours because I have to, not through choice at all. We are still paying off some of my husbands debts from before I met him, coupled with other debts run up whilst he was unemployed for 3-4 years. I have always been the main bread winner and this has continued since we have had children, with him being the main carer to the children. Not ideal but the best we can do with our circumstaces.

-I don't really like him watching porn, but at the same time, I know it is not fair on me to moan at him for doing so when I accept I am probably not meeting his needs at the moment. What does upset me is when he secretly watches porn downstairs on the laptop (which I am in the room working on my laptop or eating tea etc) and then expecting sex from me as soon as we go to bed. It is as though he is turned on from the porn and not anything to do with wanting me sexually as his wife.

-My husband has never been particularly tactile or phyisically affectionate, although this has hit an all time low since I got pregnant with our first child (incidentally, the lack of affection he has shown diminished long before my sex drive). It's been probably 4-5 years since we cuddled up on the sofa together, as my husband prefers his "own" sofa.

-Trying to talk to my husband about the matter goes nowhere to be frank. I try to talk, he just clams up and goes all defensive and always put the blame back on my doorstep. I am not perfect, never have I pretended to be, but I can't help it if I don't get turned on my someone grabbing my boob whilst I do the washing up!? I get upset about the matter and end up in tears and he doesn't seem bothered.

-I totally "get" that he doesn't like the rejection of me saying no, but at the same time, it is hard for me to get my head around me getting into bed, him moving over a cuddle, him starting to touch me, me telling him it is my time of the month so he rolls over, turns his back on me and goes to sleep on the other side of the bed.

I wish I could make myself open to having sex 2-3 times a week as it would solve a lot of problems and help reduce the stress levels in my relationship but I so struggle. I am going to try harder to let go in order to please him as I know someone has to take the first step.




Vicki[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

happylovingwife said:


> I think that's unfair to take that attitude with regard to this thread. There have been many thoughtful and reasonable responses.


I hardly know where to begin because you are a sundry of contradictions. First, I don't know if you have some kind of complex that makes you so defensive. I was talking to and about the very many hardly-so-thoughtful and hardly-so-reasonable responses that told her in so many words to just do it. Whether they used those words or found some clever words to say the same thing were still essentially saying the same thing. I was also talking to and about the dozens, tens of dozens, or even hundreds of respondents in other threads who tell women that silliness. There was nothing unfair about what I said. Telling women to just do it is what is unfair - unfair to the woman, not to mention it is unkind, insensitive, and just plain ridiculous to tell women to "just do it." No one has any idea what is happening to her and how she feels used and objectified (as in Vicki's case) or if the husband does and says other types of things that causes women's libido to wane, if not disappear because she is repulsed by him. If you did not say anything like that, then clearly I was not talking to you because you didn't say anything like that, remember? But, as I recall, you certainly did, so why did you address me and claim you did not as if I accused you of something you didn't do? I surely did not accuse anyone, but you certainly did say it.

And then you said it again for the second time........



happylovingwife said:


> notice I"m not saying just do it, I think she should work to GET INTO IT not just lay there


I don't know how you think there is any difference.

And then, you said the exact same thing a THIRD time........



happylovingwife said:


> I think wives that have chosen well and really love their husbands should force themselves to have sex.


What the heck?!?!?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

No one gets married to be celibate. So, unless you (general you) actively try to be a better spouse in that area, then you can't complain about porn, masturbation, or feeling distant from your spouse.

Sexual rejection sucks.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

DTO said:


> * Feeling shame for pre-marital sex


That was a factor for my wife. I was shocked when she told me that.

Women better just be careful with that angle. If they feel bad about losing their virginity to their husband before they got married, how would they feel about losing their virginity to their EX husband before marriage? Cut him off and they just might get it.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

VickiC said:


> Also for me, I find it hard that he doesn't show me any affection except when he thinks sex is a possibility. Gone are the days when he'd give me a kiss on the forehead or cuddle me on the sofa. Now the only contact we generally have outside of the bedroom is if he grabs my boob or my bum, which he seems to think is being affectionate but which I find it offputting. I *keep trying to explain* to him that affection outside of the bedroom would make me feel better generally and would help to relieve the pressure in the bedroom, but he doesn't seem to get it. My husband will watch porn on his laptop but doesn't self-pleasure which means he is ever more frustrated at bed time.





VickiC said:


> *he is turned on from the porn and not anything to do with wanting me sexually as his wife.*
> 
> * the lack of affection he has shown diminished long before my sex drive). It's been probably 4-5 years since we cuddled up on the sofa together, as my husband prefers his "own" sofa.*
> 
> ...





that_girl said:


> No one gets married to be celibate. So, unless you (general you) actively try to be a better spouse in that area, then you can't complain about porn, masturbation, or feeling distant from your spouse.


That girl, the problem with telling women to just do it like this is how inconsiderate and insensitive you are being to the person you're talking to. I don't know how many times she has to tell you she expresses her needs to her husband but he ignores her. I don't know in how many different ways she has to explain he uses and objectifies her. If you have never experienced the kind of neglect, lack of respect, and being objectified by a man, then you have no idea how she feels. Therefore, telling her to just do it like you keep doing is not helpful to her. You are, in effect, only blaming her and making the feelings he causes her fault. You are not listening to her just like her husband is not listening.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

In all of these situations, there are 3 sides. Hers, His and the truth. They are both feeling something. There is something deeper than just sex going on and it's a vicious cycle. I am not trying to be insensitive...at all. I have been on both sides and in those situations, there was a huge gap in communication and understanding in my relationships. it just manifested itself in the sex. 

He's a guy. He's trying to say, "hey, I love your body, you, being close to you, etc" so he grabs her boob trying to be playful and just gets denied. She is valid in her feelings but so is he. The more he gets denied, the more resentment feels, but seems he still tries to initiate something with her. He obviously doesn't have the communication skills to TELL her what he feels when he is initiating things so it falls on deaf ears because SHE feels objectified and HE feels denied. And it repeats.

When he rolls over and turns his back on her, it's in defense of her denying him again. Period or not, there are ways to be intimate without shutting the other person out/down. 

Instead of getting offended when being groped, maybe understand that he's just trying to get her attention and doesn't know what to say. 

The porn issue is something I haven't dealt with, you're right. It's poison for any relationship, but that's just my opinion. He is getting denied by her, watches porn, gets turned on, GOES TO HIS WIFE, and gets denied...which kills the ego some more. She sees it as objectifying....I see it as a vicious cycle of distancing themselves from each other.

In these situations, it's always, "I want, he wants" but never "we want". I dunno...for me to say, Just do it, isn't being rude...I mean just go take the man and do it and leave him laying there thinking, wtf?  Ya know? 

Her husband WANTS her. She obviously loves him and cares about him or she wouldn't still be with him. 

I see it from both sides. That doesn't make me insensitive. Sexual rejection is murder to the soul. Pretty soon she won't need to worry about his advances because he'll just stop trying and then she'll wonder why he never tries any more.

There is a huge bust in communication. He's not listening, she's only shutting him out. Once resentment sets in, ANY playful advance will be seen as offputting.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I'll be honest, I've only read the first page and this page. 

I have a small suggestion. There are a lot of helpful folks on here so no doubt they have already sparked things to consider. Anyway, my small suggestion is regarding the non-sexual affection. Forgive me if this was covered already.

But, I'm wondering if you kiss him, hug him, hold hands and such? You wrote that he isn't doing these things with you, but I'm wondering if you are initiating that type of touch yourself? It doesn't take energy to do this. I'm just thinking it might help you feel more inclined to be close to him if you receive this... through giving/initiating. It's that type of touch that while being non-sexual, it can be intimate, and it can strike flirtation if you let it.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Her husband WANTS her. She obviously loves him and cares about him or she wouldn't still be with him.
> 
> I see it from both sides. That doesn't make me insensitive. Sexual rejection is murder to the soul. Pretty soon she won't need to worry about his advances because he'll just stop trying and then she'll wonder why he never tries any more.
> 
> There is a huge bust in communication. He's not listening, she's only shutting him out. Once resentment sets in, ANY playful advance will be seen as offputting.


:iagree:

Someone has to go first in breaking the cycle. OP, you're here and concerned for your marriage. The current dynamic between you isn't working for either of you. I wonder if you're able to be the first "step" in changing things.

It will take both of you, the awareness will need both of you to be on the same page, but perhaps it could start with your step being first?


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Sorry, I have a tendency to think afterwards and then return to post more... it's one of my flaws. I do also think you need to work something out with your husband so you can get some sleep and solid rest. I think lack of sleep and being exhausted just heightens levels of stress and anxiety. 

It seems you do love your husband and he wants you. You need to come to a point of working together (I don't have the how...), with both of you being willing and able and aware, to change the dynamic that has formed between you - if you wish to improve your relationship. It's great that you have posted here. You get something's gotta give. Props to you for recognizing that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Vicki,

How many hours a day does your husband work? Is he as exhausted as you are?


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

River1977 said:


> Therefore, telling her to just do it like you keep doing is not helpful to her. You are, in effect, only blaming her and making the feelings he causes her fault. You are not listening to her just like her husband is not listening.


We could all sit around and blame the husband, but he's not here. Nothing we say will affect HIM. 

We can give advice to the person who is on the forum.

It's not about apportioning fault, really, it's about solving problems.

(that_girl was talking somewhat about 'fault,' but only to the extent of the control issue here: she's not interested in her hubby sexually, but she doesn't want him to look at porn either. pointing out this problem isn't necessarily "blame," but maybe just calling for self-reflection.)

[edit: I may have let my reading comp skills slip re: porn issues)


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

heartsbeating said:


> But, I'm wondering if you kiss him, hug him, hold hands and such? You wrote that he isn't doing these things with you, but I'm wondering if you are initiating that type of touch yourself? It doesn't take energy to do this. I'm just thinking it might help you feel more inclined to be close to him if you receive this... through giving/initiating. It's that type of touch that while being non-sexual, it can be intimate, and it can strike flirtation if you let it.


Well, I think she said this and if not what I'm saying is based on how things were between myself and my wife. She doesn't do that because she doesn't want him to mistake it for initiating sex.

If she's going to take the lead, there are some things that are going to need to happen. It'd be easier for the man to take the lead, and changes have to happen first but I think those changes are easier and fewer.

For the woman to take the lead, she's going to have to overcome hangups, set firm boundaries, and take on the role of trainer. Before she can take on the trainer, she's going to understand what is going on. For the man to take the lead, he needs to figure out what's going on - he has to be a little more restrained, but if he understands what's going on it's not that hard to do.

This is still an area that we're working on at this point. We've gotten to the point where I can initiate sex even though she isn't feeling horny yet. I was able to pull it off last night for the first or maybe second time. But my wife reacts negatively to contact with her t & p this morning. Otherwise she likes being touched and held. She says she doesn't like to be touched there. 

I'm pretty sure the truth is that she's developed a negative association because I used to try to initiate sex by touching her t & p. I know better than to accept that she doesn't like being touched there, I know she loves it. We just had sex so she doesn't want it again yet. My wife and I need still to build her trust in the fact that just because I cup her breast that should be enjoyable and no longer means I'm trying to initiate sex.

And for me to do that, I've had to figure out how to initiate... A bit more lengthy subject but a key is making her comfortable instead of triggering her fear response.

In order for the OP as the woman to make this kind of progress she'd have to train him to do all this.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

i am reading alot about the non sexual touch, the lack of affection from him to her. when my wife and i had sex (when) we spent 30 to 45 minutes warming up with cuddling, kissing, and any other non sexual touching you can think of. she almost always made the first sexual contact to lead into the sex. she always orgasmed when we made love and seemed to really enjoy it. i also made numerous non sexual contacts with her at times when i know sex wasnt going to happen just to try and keep the spark alive for the next time.

it hasnt mattered, in the long run i am in a basically sexless marriage. she is a SAHM with all 3 kids in school 5 days a week. i cant explain it and now she gets no affection from me. we are roomates and i feel the marriage is doomed. without the close connection of intimacy with the one woman i fell in love with and dedicated my life to, i have become quite bitter and am ready to bust out into the field to find someone i am more compatable with. a sad ending when some type of regular intimacy would have made all the difference. its really not that hard, unless you just dont love the guy, maybe thats the case for me and the OP


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## miss smiley (May 3, 2011)

@WillK- you got it!! You heard and understood your wife!  I've tried to explain this to my H over the years, that I feel like I need to hold back and not be myself because I am the type of person who enjoys alot of nonsexual contact. It got to the pt where I automatically withdrew when he came around because he'd otherwise just think all is ok and go for more. It hurts to be rejected and turned down-I do understand his feelings but it also hurts to be the rejector, to know I'm causing him pain. "So just do it" is what I did for years but OP might end up like me. Just "doing it" builds resentment. In my case, my H is the primary breadwinner but I take care of everything else. That has to count for something, and sex began to be another thing I was taking care of for him. I love sex, as I'm sure the OP does too but it's going to be more on my terms. Try to get your needs met (nonsexual intimacy) and I'm hoping all else will fall in place.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

VickiC said:


> WOw what a mixed bag of responses which seem to range from telling me I should leave my husband to telling me to have sex with him as and when he asks.
> 
> I appreciate the time people have taken to respond. It is certainly interesting reading!
> 
> ...


Vicki,

Have you and your H been to any kind of MC? You appear to have a lot of resentment built up for your H. You say yourself the two of you aren't good at communicating, or rather, he just doesn't seem to want to talk when you bring these things up. That's not healthy at all because you are here trying to figure things out... But you cannot do it on your own. When I post a problem about my marriage here, I get responses and I will share those with my H and we will discuss it in a calm, rational manner. It hasn't always been like that... We started communicating better just after our first counseling session. I'm not saying it is like that for everyone, but it might be a good start for your marriage.

In my opinion, if you just "do it", it could have the opposite effect and push you to more resentment. You do seem to understand your H needs sex and while you don't particularly care for him watching porn, your main concern seems to be that he gets himself all worked up and doesn't take care of himself, which puts you on the spot to reject him more not to mention you don't feel like it's YOU he's actually horny for... Since he just watched some porn star do her thing. 

My H use to watch porn on his phone on his breaks and crap, he'd also sneak some before I got home, or act like he's playing a game on his phone while he was really looking at porn... Of course it made him horny... Well, my drive was still very weak to non-existent. He was working himself up for what? His watching porn didn't help with my drive, what the fvck was he doing? Why wasn't he taking those opportunities to love on his wife? Why wouldn't he want to try and work his wife up instead of just himself?

Just a thought. Good luck.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

WillK said:


> Well, I think she said this and if not what I'm saying is based on how things were between myself and my wife. She doesn't do that because she doesn't want him to mistake it for initiating sex.


WillK - I thought your entire post was valuable. 

I agree there needs to be understanding of what's going on between them.

My small suggestion of the non-sexual touch, as affection, was meant more just in the way of going for a walk and holding his hand, a hug hello ....that kind of thing. To communicate love and affection on that level, simply to reignite the thought of closeness between them. I know it doesn't solve the bigger feeling of disconnect between them, just thought it might be a simple way of her to express her love and encourage that type of affection in their home again.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

River1977 said:


> I can be hopeful this will shut these people up telling women to "just do it" and making them all the blame and responsibile. Alas, I know it won't, but I can dream someone will get the clue they need to stop being as crappy to these women as the women's husbands are. At least it will help you and other women to understand you are not at fault for lack of desire and how he turns you off and makes you resentful.


One half of humanity withdraws sexually when neglected emotionally.

The other half withdraws emotionally when neglected sexually.

Both are equally predictable; human and from their respective viewpoint, often justifiable responses. But they are both counterproductive


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

okeydokie said:


> we spent 30 to 45 minutes warming up with cuddling, kissing, and any other non sexual touching you can think of.


I think that misses the point. It takes comfort rather than fear.

The problem with the above is that it was for sex. Here's an example of how things went for me yesterday when my wife didn't want sex, but that's not how the day ended.

I spent all day yesterday. Not constantly. From work I texted her. I made her laugh.

She texted me first, asking about a security question for a login on one of our credit cards. We've got a number of smaller credit cards we used to pay for roofing materials, and we're paying them off and closing them. So when I asked why she needed the info she spoke about closing the cards.

So I decided it was time to play.

My next text was "Does closing credit cards open your legs?"

She responded with "Haha"

I wrote back, just to be sure it was clear that I'm not equating sex and other things "You do know that I'd close those cards anyway."

At this point, there were other practical things to text, so when that was done I restarted "Back to what we were talking about, I believe you were about to tell me how much you enjoy... Something I mentioned?"

See, I leave it open to interpretation. If she goes for the legs opening comment, I can talk to her like she's the one that's horny. For that matter, I probably can do that anyway by inuendo if she didn't shut it down... And because I made it clear I wasn't equating the two things, I can make plant the suggestion that she's the one equating the two things.

After work, my wife was concerned about our son because he is starting tutoring, so I reassured my wife about that. By the time the kids went to bed, she was giving her "I'm tired" line. I had the kids sit on our bed to read their bedtime story, and sent them to their bedroom and I think I somehow had planted the idea in her head and all I had to do was not invoke her fear response.

It worked.. She said, without me asking, "Okay, just suck on me, but I'm too tired to do anything." (Well.. that last part of what she said turned out not to be true either. She got a bit energized by the increase in circulation.)

After we were done, we played Diablo 3 together.


So for you women on this thread that say you don't want sex. What is it you really don't want? Is it perhaps closer to the truth to say that you don't want the fear you feel when your husband tries to initiate sex, and you don't want the arguement that follows? I say that when you state "I don't want sex" it's a symptom, and the root cause is something else deeper.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

that_girl said:


> When he rolls over and turns his back on her, it's in defense of her denying him again. Period or not, there are ways to be intimate without shutting the other person out/down.


Hmmm, I see this as him rejecting her... If he can't fvck her at that moment, he just rolls over. Real nice. He's basically telling her that unless she can perform, she is useless to him.



that_girl said:


> Sexual rejection is murder to the soul.


And emotional rejection is what? It's murder to the soul and then some.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

VickiC said:


> WOw what a mixed bag of responses which seem to range from telling me I should leave my husband to telling me to have sex with him as and when he asks.
> 
> I appreciate the time people have taken to respond. It is certainly interesting reading!
> 
> ...


Vicki, seriously... The first step you should take right now is buy the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and BOTH of you read it. I promise it's an eye-opener for your relationship and you will both understand where you're doing each other wrong.

THEN, when you're done with that book, you should both read "The 5 Love Languages" to get to know each other more personally as individuals.

There's a wealth of knowledge on these forums, but it comes in spray form from tons of different sources and angles. If you want a real constructive step program to begin change for the better in your marriage, these books will lead you through the storm together.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Cherry said:


> Hmmm, I see this as him rejecting her... If he can't fvck her at that moment, he just rolls over. Real nice. He's basically telling her that unless she can perform, she is useless to him.


If you hadn't eaten for a week and someone brought you into a bakery, where you could smell all kinds of delicious foods and then told you "You can look and smell and touch, but no eating!" would you stick around? 

There's something literally painful about being that close to something you want and not being allowed to have it. Like, physically hurts. 

And it's even worse because you have promised to never, ever have sex with anyone else... and the person that you promised this to doesn't even *want* to have sex with you. 

I would HATE to cuddle if I was constantly being refused sex; not because I'd thing my wife is 'useless' to me or whatever if she refuses to have sex with me, but because (a) it HURTS!, and (b) it hurts that she isn't attracted to me at all.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Hmmm, I see this as him rejecting her... If he can't fvck her at that moment, he just rolls over. Real nice. He's basically telling her that unless she can perform, she is useless to him.
> 
> 
> 
> And emotional rejection is what? It's murder to the soul and then some.


I didn't say it wasn't. I cannot give advice to her husband, CAN I? NO. I am trying to have her see his side so she can change HER behaviour.

Geebus.

She rejects him, he rejects her. They go to their corners and resentment builds. NOT HEALTHY.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

SoWhat said:


> If you hadn't eaten for a week and someone brought you into a bakery, where you could smell all kinds of delicious foods and then told you "You can look and smell and touch, but no eating!" would you stick around?
> 
> There's something literally painful about being that close to something you want and not being allowed to have it. Like, physically hurts.
> 
> ...


The OP states that the little amount of emotional, non sexual affection that her H did show in their marriage diminished PRIOR to the sex diminishing. *That said, and only my personal opinion on this whole thing -- I would HATE, detest, despise and completely be disgusted to have sex if I was constantly being refused affection outside of the bedroom. *


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

VickiC said:


> -I totally "get" that he doesn't like the rejection of me saying no, but at the same time, it is hard for me to get my head around me getting into bed, him moving over a cuddle, him starting to touch me, me telling him it is my time of the month so he rolls over, turns his back on me and goes to sleep on the other side of the bed.Vicki


VickiC, whether or not you mean it in this way, your husband is taking that as a "hard stop" and that you want no further contact. Because he is all worked up to have sex, it's not so simple as just calming down. Maybe if he took care of things himself or if you took care of him, then he could give you the emotionally comforting contact you want. He just can't do it when all his body is telling him is "time to procreate".



miss smiley said:


> Vicki- my husband did the same thing too! Cuddled up if he thot we'd have sex and then roll over and leave me alone if I said it was that time of the month! It even went so far as him documenting when I was on it and when he'd try again (I read his journal). I wish you luck on trying to not let it bother you. I tried to ignore it too but I started to feel used and resentment built. I took sex off the table for awhile. I just can't give and give w/o the closeness. I don't know what to do now though. We're currently trying to build that closeness but so far, it's a slow process.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Cherry said:


> Hmmm, I see this as him rejecting her... If he can't fvck her at that moment, he just rolls over. Real nice. He's basically telling her that unless she can perform, she is useless to him.
> 
> And emotional rejection is what? It's murder to the soul and then some.


Cherry, what's "_real nice_" to me is that you think it's ok for the wife to let the husband think sex is on the table, and then shut him down suddenly at the last second. He's not rejecting her, she's rejecting him. It's way too obvious he wants to connect, that's why he's trying to initiate sex. The simple flat statement of "it's that time of the month" says to a man, "NO SEX". It doesn't matter that you _could_ have sex during your period, you are saying that you _won't_ have sex during your period, or anything else for that matter.

Rejection of any kind is damaging, there is no arguing that point.


General responses -
Hmm...well, as a man who has been rejected in this way numerous times, I can tell you for sure that it hurts. It can happen a number of ways. 
- Maybe the husband perceived some kind of "all systems go" signal from his wife that she would be open to sex that particular night, and so decided to make an effort. Maybe the wife really didn't want sex that night but wanted to cuddle, and so displayed some kind of "I want you" vibe that was misinterpreted by the husband.

I have been here LOTS of times myself. Maybe she's playful with you when you get home that afternoon. Maybe she's playful with you via text that day. Whatever it is, you decide that sex will happen. But then as you make your move to transition from touching to sex...*BAM!!! *The security doors slam shut, the shields go up, and the armed guards and dogs surround you.

Sometimes you feel so hurt because maybe you have already been doing the touchy stuff for 30 or 45 minutes, and you are just aching to connect with your wife. Sometimes the sudden rejection actually startles you and so you just roll over not knowing what to do. Sometimes it seriously p!sses you off because you thought you were doing what she wanted and you got a "no"...again. So you just decide it's less stressful to go to sleep. I have been here many times. I wanted sex. I thought she wanted sex. I spent a good amount of time thinking I was warming her up for sex. Then, no sex. After so much rejection we will simply stop trying. 

No matter which spouse you are, if you have no intentions of sex at that point, make those intentions clear. This one simple communication will alleviate this entire problem of "trial and error" rejection. Believe it or not, sometimes we fellas are not in the mood, but if you want it we will do our best to make it good for you. We only ask the same treatment in return.

I have had this same conversation with my wife recently after one of these incidents. I feel rejection and choose to just go to sleep. Why would I want to keep making her feel good if she has so coldly slammed the door in my face? If I know there is no sex to begin with, I can relax and enjoy it for what it is. If I think there is sex, then I get revved up because I love my wife and if I have a chance to have sex and connect with her I want to take it.

As far as documenting your woman's cycle, I do it. I didn't before, but I have found that now that I have a reasonable idea of when she will be more open to sex I can tailor how I interact with her. I can be more gentle and caring during her period, and more direct and rough with her during her ovulation. This small bit of information has allowed us to have some crazy good encounters recently.

Another thing I found was that as the frequency (and quality) of sex increased, I was less focused on getting to the sex part. I can touch my wife more in non-sexual ways without thinking, "Oh my God! I might get sex! Keep going!" 

When you are starved for that emtional connection, you focus on it more. And when there is even the slightest possibility of it happening, your body almost forces you to try and make it happen. This can lead to "overdoing" it and causing the wife to stop you cold, causing the resentment, causing emotional deprivation, causing overexcitement about maybe having sex, causing resentment in wife, causing "overdoing" it, causing the wife to stop you cold, causing resentment, causing emotional deprivation...you get where this goes.

*Now, as to who should be fixing this issue? Here's the simple answer; the spouse who came looking for help*. All of us here want to help you, VickiC. All we know to tell you is what we've learned from personal experience and from published sources that we have used successfully.

In my relationship, I was the one who came looking for help, and I am the one making changes *in me*, which *are* having an effect. Once you get "you" in order, if your spouse has not started automatically adjusting to you yet, then you start the conversation and say that you have these expectations of marriage and moving forward that is what needs to happen. If that can't happen in a reasonable amount of time then the relationship may end. 

At this point I am only about 6 months into making "me" as good as I can. Working out, trying to be more direct and not so, "I don't know what do you want?" I am going slowly, and things are changing slowly, but they are changing.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

We can do the "he started it," "No, SHE started it" game for years (look at Israel and Palestine!). 

That's about blame. 

I'm telling you that it hurts to NEVER be able to have sex (and to be guilted about masturbation!) when you're in the mood - and you'll be in the mood all the time if you're never getting any. 

The guy's attracted to his wife. His wife's not attracted to him. 
That's a problem. 

We can't tell HIM "Hey, be nice to your wife!" - he's not on here.
But we can explain to her the physical and emotional pain that comes with rejection.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

wayne81 said:


> Cherry, what's "_real nice_" to me is that you think it's ok for the wife to let the husband think sex is on the table, and then shut him down suddenly at the last second. He's not rejecting her, she's rejecting him. It's way too obvious he wants to connect, that's why he's trying to initiate sex. The simple flat statement of "it's that time of the month" says to a man, "NO SEX". It doesn't matter that you _could_ have sex during your period, you are saying that you _won't_ have sex during your period, or anything else for that matter.
> 
> Rejection of any kind is damaging, there is no arguing that point.
> 
> ...


I get all that. I'm talking about the OP here. From her two posts so far... I get that her H is on HIS SOFA away from her, he's watching porn ON HIS OWN (read her second post on page 5). They get into bed. He tries to make a move, she informs him she is on her period. He's horny from the damn porn, NOT HIS WIFE because remember, he was on his sofa, nowhere near her... Not 30-40 mins of warming up with her leading him on (in fact he's leading himself on), like you are trying to insinuate, and that's what she's saying she thinks she is missing (from her first post). 

I don't get why her H didn't know she was on her period before they got into bed... Everytime I start, my H knows like the minute I start... I text him. He knows oral for me is at least off of the table. But like last night, I gave him oral until completion... AND GUESS WHY? Because he was attentive to me all freaking day and he makes me feel special... Not just when he wants to get laid.

But whatever, we can agree to just disagree.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

Cherry said:


> ...he's watching prn ON HIS OWN (read her second post on page 5). They get into bed. He tries to make a move, she informs him she is on her period. He's hrny from the damn prn, NOT HIS WIFE...


That much should be common sense to the H. Don't get spun up watching p*rn, and then try to make a move on wifey. Even a caveman like me can figure out where that's going to lead.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> ... I get that her H is on HIS SOFA away from her, he's watching porn ON HIS OWN (read her second post on page 5). They get into bed. He tries to make a move, she informs him she is on her period. He's horny from the damn porn, NOT HIS WIFE because remember, he was on his sofa, nowhere near her...


Let's be fair. She did not connect the porn watching to this incident:



VickiC said:


> I totally "get" that he doesn't like the rejection of me saying no, but at the same time, it is hard for me to get my head around me getting into bed, him moving over a cuddle, him starting to touch me, me telling him it is my time of the month so he rolls over, turns his back on me and goes to sleep on the other side of the bed.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

VickiC said:


> -I don't really like him watching porn, but at the same time, I know it is not fair on me to moan at him for doing so when I accept I am probably not meeting his needs at the moment. *What does upset me is when he secretly watches porn downstairs on the laptop (which I am in the room working on my laptop or eating tea etc) and then expecting sex from me as soon as we go to bed. It is as though he is turned on from the porn and not anything to do with wanting me sexually as his wife.
> *
> Vicki


ocotillo - she did here............


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> ocotillo - she did here............


No, that's a general statement. It's not connected to the specific incident under discussion either explicitly or implicitly. 

If Vicki meant to connect the two, I hope she will clarify.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

ocotillo said:


> No, that's a general statement. It's not connected to the specific incident under discussion either explicitly or implicitly.
> 
> If Vicki meant to connect the two, I hope she will clarify.


She told us how she feels when he looks at porn and then comes on to her when they crawl into bed. Seems to me like the incidences are pretty connected any way you look at it. 

Perhaps they both should put their laptops down in the evenings and find a way to reconnect prior to retiring to bed -- Watch a show together, take a bath together, play a game together... Something together.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

Cherry said:


> I get all that. I'm talking about the OP here. From her two posts so far... I get that her H is on HIS SOFA away from her, he's watching porn ON HIS OWN (read her second post on page 5). They get into bed. He tries to make a move, she informs him she is on her period. He's horny from the damn porn, NOT HIS WIFE because remember, he was on his sofa, nowhere near her... Not 30-40 mins of warming up with her leading him on (in fact he's leading himself on), like you are trying to insinuate, and that's what she's saying she thinks she is missing (from her first post).
> 
> I don't get why her H didn't know she was on her period before they got into bed... Everytime I start, my H knows like the minute I start... I text him. He knows oral for me is at least off of the table. But like last night, I gave him oral until completion... AND GUESS WHY? Because he was attentive to me all freaking day and he makes me feel special... Not just when he wants to get laid.
> 
> But whatever, we can agree to just disagree.


While he may be misguided in getting visually stimulated by the porn, let's not forget that he wants to have sex with his wife. I look at porn too, but it's not a substitution for being intimate with my wife. I will say that if it's a no sex day and I know that going into it, but I still find myself feeling frisky, then porn is on the menu. If I am getting fed my emotional pizza (sex), then I have no need or desire to look at porn, at least until I start perceiving a deficit in the amount of food I get. 

We can infer from VickiC's posts that they aren't communicating very well, so it is perfectly reasonable for him not to know she's on her period, unless he's taking notes about the contents of the trash can (or can observe her behavior and understand what's behind it). We also don't know if any type of sexual contact is on the table during her period. If they've ever done anything on her period in the past, then he will feel like it's fair game. The sudden shut down _and tone of voice when said_ is I think the issue in this case. She needs to just say that she doesn't want to have sex that night and not leave it open to guess work. If it really is because of her period, fine, but present it in more of a loving way. 

Again, unless he's here looking for answers as well, he doesn't know to make any changes. VickiC has to take the lead, at least until things get going.

I personally would not use porn as a stimulant prior to engaging with my wife if no other communication had been present, so I completely agree on that front. However, I do find watching _tasteful_ porn with my wife allows me to get the visual stimulation I like and my wife to get the some of the emotional connection coming off the couple in the video. If I'm by myself I will watch raunchier stuff.

I'm thinking that he just doens't know how to communicate to his wife that he wants to connect, other than being touchy and gropy. Admittedly, that doesn't always work on my wife either! It's a multi-sided issue. She interprets his gropiness as "I only want you for sex". Hopefully that's not the case. We don't really know from the information available. He interprets the sudden "it's that time of the month" to mean that she's perfectly ok allowing him to continue to give her what she wants, the touchy stuff, but he's not going to get the stuff he wants. 

In this instance and moment in time, the wife is purposefully neglecting the husband, whether or not anything else happened that day, week, month, or year. This is not a blame game. The wife is here asking for help, and the overwhelming majority of posts have been to change her actions (to more sex) and see what happens. It's important to note here that it shouldn't just be sex, she needs to try and get into it and emotionally bond with her husband again. When it comes down to it that's all they both really want, there's just a lot of other stuff in the way right now.

We can't tell the husband to change because he's not here. However, he will notice a change and at the very least will start to wonder what's going on. VickiC needs to be careful to positively reinforce behaviors of his she finds appealing, and not pay any attention at all to the behaviors she finds distasteful, rather than negatively reinforcing them, because that then pays attention to them.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

River1977 said:


> That girl, the problem with telling women to just do it like this is how inconsiderate and insensitive you are being to the person you're talking to. I don't know how many times she has to tell you she expresses her needs to her husband but he ignores her.


And he's expressing his needs and she's rejecting him. How is that any worse?

Someone needs to make the first move.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Acorn said:


> And he's expressing his needs and she's rejecting him. How is that any worse?
> 
> Someone needs to make the first move.


She did make the first move and HE ignored her request for more affection outside of the bedroom.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

wayne81 said:


> I'm thinking that he just doens't know how to communicate to his wife that he wants to connect, other than being touchy and gropy. Admittedly, that doesn't always work on my wife either! It's a multi-sided issue. She interprets his gropiness as "I only want you for sex". Hopefully that's not the case. We don't really know from the information available. He interprets the sudden "it's that time of the month" to mean that *she's perfectly ok allowing him to continue to give her what she wants, the touchy stuff*, but he's not going to get the stuff he wants.


Apparently I'm freaking missing something that you've read somewhere in this thread... I do not see anywhere where her H is giving her what she wants which is non-sexual touch. Can you point out where VickiC wrote that her H is being affectionate to her without expecting sex? In fact I believe I read that the affection left the marriage BEFORE the sex did. But I certainly could be mistaken.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Hmmm, I see this as him rejecting her... If he can't fvck her at that moment, he just rolls over. Real nice. He's basically telling her that unless she can perform, she is useless to him.


And he likely sees it as just another rejection. She does not want sex and he is hurt. Neither is necessarily wrong in their interpretation - it can be both.



> And emotional rejection is what? It's murder to the soul and then some.


I don't think that you understand that to many husbands, sexual rejection is the same as emotional rejection. It is not on a lower plane just because of the physical aspect of it. Failing to recognize that is dangerous to a marriage.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I think when you aren't getting sex, any touch can be sexual...if there is this power struggle between two people, any touch will be considered 'sexual' by someone who thinks her man only wants her for sex.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

He was showing more affection! She thinks of it as groping and offputting. If he snuggles, she assumes he wants sex and says she's on her period. 

My husband and I don't spend every waking minute together. Even in the evenings sometimes we're on separate couches. But he's still horny for me when we go to bed. I don't understand why a man shouldn't be horny for his wife just because he wasn't sitting next to her.

Granted the porn thing is offputting to ME because I don't like porn, he still comes to his wife instead of busting a nut by himself.

I just think the two of them really need to talk. REALLY TALK. Clarify WHAT is nonsexual touch. Set boundaries. Talk about the porn and how it makes her feel. Not snide comments, or fighting, just a good talk.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

But Cherry, don't you see? Why would he want to do something he knows will just end up frustrating him? If he initiates physical contact, which is what he's tried to do in the past, he's so sex-starved he will have no choice but to want it to lead to sex, which he likely assumes will get him shut down, thus another rejection. 

I'm betting he had no clue she was making the first move. He doesn't get that she needs the "touchy" stuff to have that nice emotional bond. She is now starting to understand that he needs the "sex" stuff to have that nice emotional bond.

She sent the message, you are correct, he just never received it. He didn't know how to process what she was trying to tell him. I hope that we are helping VickyC see what he is trying to tell her. Again, since she's the one looking for help, the job to initiate change is her, otherwise this will continue until they are both miserable all the time or divorced and left wondering what the heck happened.

I know from personal experience that I have been able to relax and give my wife more non-sexual affection outside the bedroom, but that's only because she has really stepped up her game in the sex department. I now feel comfortable to touch her and not be constantly afraid that she's either going to brush me off and thus no sex, or if I start trying to lead it into sex I will be denied, and thus no sex.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Cherry said:


> Apparently I'm freaking missing something that you've read somewhere in this thread... I do not see anywhere where her H is giving her what she wants which is non-sexual touch. Can you point out where VickiC wrote that her H is being affectionate to her without expecting sex? In fact I believe I read that the affection left the marriage BEFORE the sex did. But I certainly could be mistaken.


The overriding fact that is being overlooked in this discussion is that his #1 need is clearly sex, and that need has not been met very well in a long long time. It is hard to be affectionate to someone that neglects you.

That is not to say that her needs are not equally important. NEITHER person is meeting the other's core need.

If the marriage is to be healthy, OP will need to heavily ramp up the sex, and H will have to heavily ramp up the affection.

And yeah, it's gonna be hard for whoever is brave enough to lead the effort and meet the other's needs while not having their own needs met. And that will probably take a long time, too, so it'll be one helluva effort.

OP - Talk about it with H. Decide you can't take it and leave. Or change yourself. Don't sit around waiting for H to change because it might never happen. Don't become the victim and blame your lack of involvement on your husbands' lack of involvement. Act and you might be surprised what happens. And go from there.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

that_girl said:


> He was showing more affection! She thinks of it as groping and offputting. If he snuggles, she assumes he wants sex and says she's on her period.


It can be really hard to get out of a cycle of rejection. When I was in one with my wife, I started to doubt even legitimate reasons. She started to interpret any physical contact as an attempt at sex.

I remember one time where I tried to initial some non-sexual touch (after reading a suggestion in an article). I approached her to cuddle in bed. I had no intent on trying for sex, but rather was trying to assure her that I loved her for more of that. As we did, I got hard, in large part because I had not had sex in over a week. My body just reacted. The minute she felt it, she immediately interpreted my attempts as trying for sex. Out came the head-ache and her body stiffened. Her tone said she did not want me to touch her. I was hurt over the rejection, so I rolled over and away to give her the space she wanted. We both took the same set of facts and interpreted them in different ways. Both of us were wrong and handled it poorly.



> My husband and I don't spend every waking minute together. Even in the evenings sometimes we're on separate couches. But he's still horny for me when we go to bed. I don't understand why a man shouldn't be horny for his wife just because he wasn't sitting next to her.
> 
> Granted the porn thing is offputting to ME because I don't like porn, he still comes to his wife instead of busting a nut by himself.


I have come to the conclusion that porn is for some men what stress eating is for some women. It is a temporary, unhealthy way to momentarily mask the pain. Does not make it right, but perhaps more understandable.



> I just think the two of them really need to talk. REALLY TALK. Clarify WHAT is nonsexual touch. Set boundaries. Talk about the porn and how it makes her feel. Not snide comments, or fighting, just a good talk.


I do think communication is the key. They need to talk about these things. I continue to think they need to schedule both sexual and non-sexual time with each other. Dates where they will cuddle with no sex, and dates where there will be sex. Get both of them practicing on working as a team.

I will lastly add that my suggestions have been to her because she is the one here. Blaming everything on her husband, as some have done, is just not helpful. May make her feel better short term, but does not solve anything unless she decides to leave him. To suggest changes for her to make does not absolve him of responsibility - it only recognizes that she is the one here, not him.


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

Thanks again to those of you who have taken the time to reply.

I have to admit to being slightly overwhelmed by some of the responses here and slightly upset by others, but I posted for advice and opinions and I guess that is what I have got. I do think certain posts have drawn wrong conclusions but hey ho.

I don't know where some of you have got the comments from that I am totally against him watching porn? I never once said that, and in fact I said that I know it is not fair of me to complain at him for doing so as I accept he's not fulfulling his sexual needs with me. That said, my feelings are that it would be beneficial for him to mastrabate and relieve some of that built up frustration (he never mastrabates).

Regarding the comments when I said that when it was my time of the month, if I mentioned that to him, he would roll over and go to sleep. I feel like I am damned if I do and damned if I don't - if I didn't tell him it was my period and let him carry on cuddling, touching etc then surely I would be leading him on? (I don't like intercourse during my period). I tell him, so that he is aware, I never say "get off me because it is my period" but he was the one that chose to roll over as soon as I said that, not make alternative suggestions. I felt totally used.

Someone asked how many hours my husband works - generally 30 hours in the business although as I have also said, he is the main carer of our children. I have never tried to say he has it easy, and he does do his share of household stuff.

Someone else mentioned about spending 30-45 minutes with their wife cuddling and kissing before taking things further. Is this normal, as my husbands introduction to sex when we get into bed is normally him putting his hand between my legs and start touching me straight away. As much as I tell him, it falls on deaf ears that I find clitoral stimulation rather painful if I am not turned on, but he doesn't listen and perserveres anyway which unfortunately generally turns me off more. I try to tell him what I like, how I like to be treated etc but he rarely takes it on board.

Resentment was also mentioned. I guses a small element of this does creep in. Why should I give him into give and give him sex as and when he wants in when he does little in response to my non-sexual requests?

Take last night as an example. He got home from work with the little ones at 4pm ish and put them to bed etc before I got home from work at 8.30pm. I made myself something quick to eat, whilst he fell asleep on the sofa, waking briefly to watch a few minutes here and there of tv (football I think). We hardly spoke - not helped by the fact my job involves talking all day long hence I am often all-talked-out by the time I get home - then about 11pm I said I was going to bed. He followed, I got into bed and he started trying to initiate sex. I let him, he came before I got close so he started touching me afterwards and then he just fell asleep whilst still touching me. Would the other women posters here feel loved and wanted by this?

It is clear that some of you here just think I am a total *****, and that's fine, posting on an open forum means I have to take whatever responses people post to me.

I am not a machine at the end of the day, I am a woman, a woman that is hurting a lot.




Vicki


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## WillK (May 16, 2012)

So it sounds like he's clueless in bed.

Tie him down and show him what to do.


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

VickiC said:


> That said, my feelings are that it would be beneficial for him to mastrabate and relieve some of that built up frustration (he never mastrabates).


Never? If he's only getting the real deal 1-2 times/month, my guess is that he MB's now and then.


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

WillK said:


> So it sounds like he's clueless in bed.
> 
> Tie him down and show him what to do.


He's 15 years my senior so has no excuse to be clueless!


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

thunderstruck said:


> Never? If he's only getting the real deal 1-2 times/month, my guess is that he MB's now and then.


No he doesn't, and this adds to his frustration and part of the reason I sometimes feel like he is just taking his frustrations out on me.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

You're not a betch  

And he does sound clueless. I dated a man for three years who was 14 years older than me and WHEW! Clueless.


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

that_girl said:


> You're not a betch
> 
> And he does sound clueless. I dated a man for three years who was 14 years older than me and WHEW! Clueless.


But he used to do foreplay, in the earlier days of our relationship, and we used to snog etc fully clothed before peeling each others clothes off (although come to think of it he has always been fairly practical in his approach as opposed to sexy or romantic). Now it is almost like "lets just cut the crap and get straight down to business".


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## thunderstruck (May 9, 2012)

VickiC said:


> No he doesn't, and this adds to his frustration and part of the reason I sometimes feel like he is just taking his frustrations out on me.


Maybe he doesn't. My W thought I didn't for the first 15+ years of our marriage.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

VickiC said:


> Take last night as an example. He got home from work with the little ones at 4pm ish and put them to bed etc before I got home from work at 8.30pm. I made myself something quick to eat, whilst he fell asleep on the sofa, waking briefly to watch a few minutes here and there of tv (football I think). We hardly spoke - *not helped by the fact my job involves talking all day long hence I am often all-talked-out by the time I get home *- then about 11pm I said I was going to bed. He followed, I got into bed and he started trying to initiate sex. I let him, he came before I got close so he started touching me afterwards and then he just fell asleep whilst still touching me. Would the other women posters here feel loved and wanted by this?


What would you want instead of this scenario? I can see somethings he is doing wrong, but the bolded part makes me wonder. Is it possible that he has picked up that you don't want to talk when you get home? If so, could his disinterest be an attempt to give you what he thinks you want?

If that is not what you want, what would you like instead? Consider what you do want, and guide him to that. Do you want or need to cuddle with him on the couch? Would that give you some intimacy and connection that you want while still letting you unwind?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

VickiC said:


> But he used to do foreplay, in the earlier days of our relationship, and we used to snog etc fully clothed before peeling each others clothes off (although come to think of it he has always been fairly practical in his approach as opposed to sexy or romantic). Now it is almost like "lets just cut the crap and get straight down to business".


Well, he is starving for sex and acceptance.

When I was a kid, my mom was a health food nut. NO JUNK ALLOWED in the house. So whenever dad brought something home, it was gone in 10 minutes. No matter what it was, we would binge on it. Ridiculous. We didn't enjoy it or savor it...we just devoured it and then felt sick.

It's somewhat where you husband is, maybe. Because he feels the way he feels, he 'jumps the gun' so to speak. he doesn't know if you'll allow it, etc...so he jumps right in.

When he starts that, do you cut him down or just tell him (sweetly) to take it slow because you want to enjoy him? Sometimes my husband can get like that. Just wants to go into penetration before my knickers are even at my ankles! :lol: But...i just laugh because he's THAT into me. Your husband is THAT into you...he just needs to slow it down a bit.

With your last conversation about this stuff, how did it go?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

And I know how you feel about being "all talked out". I'm a teacher of 5th graders (10 and 11 year olds). I am spent when I get home and need to decompress. But he works 12 hour days so he's tired too. We still hang out and debrief each other on the day and then go game together (we're geeks). You gotta make time for your spouse if you want there to be closeness.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

VickiC said:


> Thanks again to those of you who have taken the time to reply.
> 
> I have to admit to being slightly overwhelmed by some of the responses here and slightly upset by others, but I posted for advice and opinions and I guess that is what I have got. I do think certain posts have drawn wrong conclusions but hey ho.
> 
> ...



I don't think you are an "****." I think you are in a really tough situation, and I understand how you would feel "used" during sex. My advice is still that you should try to have enthusiastic sex with your husband a few times a week. Then the "no sex no affection" cannot be played. At least you will know that you are doing your part in the relationship. You are putting the foot forward to change. Your husband needs to keep the relationship moving forward by being affectionate to you and not being so inconsiderate in bed. 

You are showing your concern for the situation by even posting in the first place. It's certainly easy for some people with high sex drives to go point the finger at other individuals who are struggling. Try not to let that get you down, though. Do what you can to protect your marriage. Hugs to you.


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> What would you want instead of this scenario? I can see somethings he is doing wrong, but the bolded part makes me wonder. Is it possible that he has picked up that you don't want to talk when you get home? If so, could his disinterest be an attempt to give you what he thinks you want?
> 
> If that is not what you want, what would you like instead? Consider what you do want, and guide him to that. Do you want or need to cuddle with him on the couch? Would that give you some intimacy and connection that you want while still letting you unwind?


He could have asked me how my day had been? Offered to cook my tea? Told me how the little ones had been without me having to try to drag that info out of him? He's probably tired too in the evenings in fairness to him.


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## wayne81 (Mar 12, 2012)

VickiC said:


> I don't know where some of you have got the comments from that I am totally against him watching porn? I never once said that, and in fact I said that I know it is not fair of me to complain at him for doing so as I accept he's not fulfulling his sexual needs with me. That said, my feelings are that it would be beneficial for him to mastrabate and relieve some of that built up frustration (he never mastrabates).


I'm glad you are hanging in there, VickiC! Things can definitely get a little crazy over this medium, but we really are trying to help. I totally agree with your above statement, if he's going to look at porn, it needs to be a situation where he handles it himself, or maybe you two watch it together and then can get creative on who is handling whom... It's about having set and consistent boundaries and expectations, for both of you. If it's a no-sex night, then it can be a porn night. If it's a porn night, then you have to figure out if it's just him or if it's a couples game. 



VickiC said:


> Regarding the comments when I said that when it was my time of the month, if I mentioned that to him, he would roll over and go to sleep. I feel like I am damned if I do and damned if I don't - if I didn't tell him it was my period and let him carry on cuddling, touching etc then surely I would be leading him on? (I don't like intercourse during my period). I tell him, so that he is aware, I never say "get off me because it is my period" but he was the one that chose to roll over as soon as I said that, not make alternative suggestions. I felt totally used.


It's really important for us to have info like this so that we hopefully can help you better. Again, both of you can do better in the communication arena. Maybe in bed while he is trying to initiate sex is not the best time to mention it, because then to him it still feels like he has been led on up to this point. But it's good that you know you have a boundary about no sex on your period, and he needs to know that if he doesn't already. Then he knows that touching is cool, but it won't lead to sex, and that's less stress for both of you.



VickiC said:


> Someone else mentioned about spending 30-45 minutes with their wife cuddling and kissing before taking things further. Is this normal, as my husbands introduction to sex when we get into bed is normally him putting his hand between my legs and start touching me straight away. As much as I tell him, it falls on deaf ears that I find clitoral stimulation rather painful if I am not turned on, but he doesn't listen and perserveres anyway which unfortunately generally turns me off more. I try to tell him what I like, how I like to be treated etc but he rarely takes it on board.


It does sound like he isn't quite sure how to turn on the car. I think he's been able to "pop the clutch" in the past to get it running, but just using the key I think he was absent that day. I have had this same issue with my wife, and it still happens sometimes. There are times that I'm just ready, and don't have the patience or can't control myself long enough to work to get her started. I want her THAT BAD. You do not see it as a good thing, but it seems that it could be quite the compliment. At any rate, when you are talking about what you like, make sure it's not right then and there, and not said in an accusational tone. Do it somewhere totally unrelated to sex. Maybe you could demonstrate on him the way you'd like to be touched. We are great visual learners!

I agree that this is where porn could be a bad influence. They generally are just ready to go, and it almost never works like that in reality. But if there are things that "do it" for you, let him know what those are and make sure you give positive attention to them. As I said before, completely ignore the bad stuff.



VickiC said:


> Resentment was also mentioned. I guses a small element of this does creep in. Why should I give him into give and give him sex as and when he wants in when he does little in response to my non-sexual requests?


All too close to home for our recent past. I have often asked myself that very question. "Why should I make the effort when she's not?" Here's why, because unless something happens to totally shake things up, he's not going to realize what's going on and neither are you. It's eternal misery or divorce on this path and we don't want that for either of you if it can be saved. You have taken the initiative and sought help. You know that things are in trouble. As I was the one who began the journey to see why my marriage was suddenly hearing the "D" word, I have been the one to also begin the recovery. It's slow, hard, and damn frustrating when it feels like two steps forward and one step back, but progress is progress.



VickiC said:


> Take last night as an example. He got home from work with the little ones at 4pm ish and put them to bed etc before I got home from work at 8.30pm. I made myself something quick to eat, whilst he fell asleep on the sofa, waking briefly to watch a few minutes here and there of tv (football I think). We hardly spoke - not helped by the fact my job involves talking all day long hence I am often all-talked-out by the time I get home - then about 11pm I said I was going to bed. He followed, I got into bed and he started trying to initiate sex. I let him, he came before I got close so he started touching me afterwards and then he just fell asleep whilst still touching me. Would the other women posters here feel loved and wanted by this?


So is this representative of the "norm" for you guys? If so, then again it's two-sided. He's taking what he _can_ get, and you are letting him.

Maybe a rearrangement of foreplay/sex would be a good compromise? Do things that get you off first, then he can do his thing and it won't matter how quickly he cums. Both get to feel good, and hopefully no dissapointments.



VickiC said:


> It is clear that some of you here just think I am a total *****, and that's fine, posting on an open forum means I have to take whatever responses people post to me.
> 
> I am not a machine at the end of the day, I am a woman, a woman that is hurting a lot.


I certainly don't think that about you. It speaks volumes that you are here looking for help. Just be careful that you aren't dismissing the information you are getting out of hand, otherwise it's all been a wasted effort. Try something, anything, and see what happens. Give it some time. Look for the positive.

We know that you are hurting. Many of us have been/are hurting in very similar situations. Just remember that your husband is hurting too. I'm sure we could have a discussion just as long as this one from his viewpoint about how his wife never talks to him at night after she gets home late and always has excuses whenever he tries to show her he loves her, especially after he makes sure the house is in good order and keeps the kiddos in check. Then we would likely talk about how he feels like a failure for not being able to keep steady employment in the past and support his family, and how he feels so troubled for all the debt he has brought into the mix.

Please keep us up to date on what you try and what improvements you see!


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## ItMatters (Jun 6, 2012)

I agree with some of the others. I think you should make a concerted effort but tell your husband you KNOW that sex is important to him and you want to do that for him. Also tell him that intimacy/gentle non-sex touch is important to you and tell him you want that as well. Like hug/kiss before leaving for work. Hug/kiss before going to bed when sex isn't on the table.

If he just takes your offer of sex 2-3x a week and doesn't reciprocate in ways that you TELL him YOU would like... well, that says a lot because YOU are trying and he isn't.

What's it going to hurt? 

BTW- is the sex good? Or is it as mechanical as his idea of 'foreplay' is? Bring a toy and MAKE it good for you if it isn't.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

VickiC said:


> He could have asked me how my day had been? Offered to cook my tea? Told me how the little ones had been without me having to try to drag that info out of him? He's probably tired too in the evenings in fairness to him.


have you told him this? He may just not know.

When hubs and I were separated...we had very frank discussions (uncomfortable and difficult for him) about these things.

Needs and wants. DETAILED. We're much better for it.


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

ItMatters said:


> BTW- is the sex good? Or is it as mechanical as his idea of 'foreplay' is? Bring a toy and MAKE it good for you if it isn't.



Sex is better when I feel turned on and when I want it too, I guess that goes without saying. I think I said before that my husband tends to climax quickly during intercourse (which I also said could partly be down to the fact he is so frustrated) but after he has climaxed, he generally loses interest (as in last night when he fell asleep). And I guess I know if I keep him playing around with me for too long before intercourse then he'll climax even sooner. 

But sex is never adventerous or particuarly exciting. 

Someone mentioned earlier about me being the main bread winner and how that could effect our sexual relationship, and there is some truth in that. My fantasies are of a strong man, taking control, him being empowered, even being tied up and letting him do what he wants to me. Unfortunately, that is not my husband. Not that he wouldn't try if I asked him to (as I have done in the past) but purely because he is so mild mannered, it just doesn't work.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

VickiC said:


> He could have asked me how my day had been? Offered to cook my tea? Told me how the little ones had been without me having to try to drag that info out of him? He's probably tired too in the evenings in fairness to him.


All fair and reasonable requests (as I am sure that you know). Have you asked him these questions yourself? Have you let him know this is what you want? Again, if you are sending the vibe that you don't want to talk, and he is already tired himself, he may be (wrongly) giving you exactly what he thinks you want. 

I do commend you on noting his tiredness as well. I obviously don't know what is really going through his head, only noting that when things get tough like this, it can be difficult to remember that his actions may not be driven by malice, but rather merely mistake. Since you are the one that his here, you get the burden of advice to change the dynamic.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Vicki - I've been separated from my wife for about 3 months now. And only yesterday I made an usual discovery. Even though we only speak once in a while now, when I talk to her, my talking speed is up about 100% from how I talk to anyone else. And, I don't give her a lot of breaks in the talking to interject.

Not surprisingly, one of my biggest issues in the marriage was lack of time together and her tendency to control conversations. 

I guess three months out, I still subconsciously feel like I'm not going to be able to have my say, so I rapid fire when I talk to her to ensure I get my say in too.

Anyway, I think his lack of affection for you and his perception of lack of sex have deeper ramifications that what might be obvious. Maybe he's quick and to the point in bed because he assumes you don't want to be there after all the rejections. It's his way of being nice to you? Eliminating all but the most meaningful conversations with you might be his way of being nice to you and not asking you to talk when you're talked out. Just something to think about.


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> All fair and reasonable requests (as I am sure that you know). Have you asked him these questions yourself? Have you let him know this is what you want? Again, if you are sending the vibe that you don't want to talk, and he is already tired himself, he may be


He rarely takes on board things I say. It's the little things that would make all the difference in the world to me. I often have a glass of wine when I get home in the evenings - how nice it would be if one evening he asked me if I'd like him to get me a glass of wine when I walked in the door. I can't really remember the last time he did somethign nice unprompted for me.

I'm not trying to make him out to be some sort of monster, because he's a good man and a great father to the children.


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## happylovingwife (Jun 5, 2012)

VickiC said:


> Sex is better when I feel turned on and when I want it too, I guess that goes without saying. I think I said before that my husband tends to climax quickly during intercourse (which I also said could partly be down to the fact he is so frustrated) but after he has climaxed, he generally loses interest (as in last night when he fell asleep). And I guess I know if I keep him playing around with me for too long before intercourse then he'll climax even sooner.
> 
> But sex is never adventerous or particuarly exciting.
> 
> Someone mentioned earlier about me being the main bread winner and how that could effect our sexual relationship, and there is some truth in that. My fantasies are of a strong man, taking control, him being empowered, even being tied up and letting him do what he wants to me. Unfortunately, that is not my husband. Not that he wouldn't try if I asked him to (as I have done in the past) but purely because he is so mild mannered, it just doesn't work.


For the record, I don't think your a witch with a b AT ALL. I'm sorry if my last post was too convoluted to properly explain the way I was thinking. This topic is still personal to me because I still feel some guilt over the way I treated my husband not too long ago. I'm sorry if I didn't stay objective enough. Your husband and my husband are totally different animals. So my advice may in fact not work for you. 

Just to add, that my husband used to grope me (grab a handful of boob or stick his hand over my crotch through my jeans) as a way of initiating. I don't know why but I think that's his "safe" way of initiating when he's afraid of a verbal rejection. In my case, it was my fault because he would ask "Wanna go get it on?" and I would say something to the effect of "not really." I was trying to joke around with him and be honest but it was truly cold of me. So I think he changed tactics to groping in order to feel less rejected and dismissed when I just walked away from his grope. If I was receptive, I'd ask, "are you horny?" and then I'd go do my wifely duty (my point of view then during low drive times). I'm not saying YOU did anything to cause him to take this tactic but maybe it's his way of avoiding rejection as well. I dunno. Some men, my husband included, never truly mastered the art of seduction. He does it well sometimes but other times, even now, he totally misses the mark. 

I also have VERY similar fantasies to you and my husband is also not one to take charge like that. It's funny because he has climbed up in his career and is in charge of a whole team of men at work, but he's not aggressive with me in any way. That makes him a wonderful, caring husband but not always the fantasy sex-man I encounter in the romance novels I like or movies I watch. So I feel you there. He knows my fantasy now and he's starting to try a little bit. We'll see how it works out. Either way, our sex is still good so it's not that big of a deal to me. 

With regard to him climaxing early. My husband always finishes me off orally first. EVERY TIME! Then we will have sex and he will usually get me off manually a second time during intercourse. I have also found that he loses interest after he climaxes and any attempt to get me off afterward is a waste of time. He's just not into it enough. Then my mind gets all upset because I feel like it's a chore for him and then I can't come anyway. So this strategy works best for us.

I really think resentment with regard to the work situation is the root of all this trouble. You're both overworked. 30hrs plus kids alone all night is a lot of work for him too! You recognize that which is great, but some men still feel inferior when they're not pulling in the money for the family. I don't know how you can address this issue but I think this is probably the best way to fix the sexual component of your marriage.


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## CrazyVixen (Jun 14, 2012)

I know you already have a lot of replies but I just figured I'd throw something out there. I know a lot of people are telling you to give him sex at least 2X's a week blah blah blah. The problem is you have to actually want to have sex with him. How long has this problem been going on? If you just have sex with him because he wants to you will later feel resentment. This is where it is important to be open to communication. If you are communicating and not getting anywhere, you need to see a marriage counselor. 

This is a big deal. Unless you get this problem taken care of it will only get worse from here. Please find the time to address this issue.

I wish you the best of luck.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

VickiC said:


> He rarely takes on board things I say. It's the little things that would make all the difference in the world to me. I often have a glass of wine when I get home in the evenings - how nice it would be if one evening he asked me if I'd like him to get me a glass of wine when I walked in the door. I can't really remember the last time he did somethign nice unprompted for me.
> 
> I'm not trying to make him out to be some sort of monster, because he's a good man and a great father to the children.


Does he know that? Have you told him that these things make a difference? When you give off a vibe that you don't want to talk to anyone, people tend to not stick around. Yesterday was terrible day at work - I stayed way late, had to bring work home, stayed up late doing it. I was tired and not in a good mood and certainly gave off the vibe not to talk to me. Funny thing was, people did exactly that. I was greated at the door, but everyone, my wife included, pretty much kept a wide bearth. I started off a bit ticked, but quickly realized that was on me. It is not up to others to beg to be around me - I need to give them a reason to as well. Are you giving him a reason to interact with you?

Finally, when is the last time you did something nice for him when you got home? Ever stop by the store to pick up his favorite take out or beer? Again, what do you do to make him feel special? Is it truly him falling down or is it both of you letting life get in the way?


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## VickiC (Jun 12, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Does he know that? Have you told him that these things make a difference? When you give off a vibe that you don't want to talk to anyone, people tend to not stick around. Yesterday was terrible day at work - I stayed way late, had to bring work home, stayed up late doing it. I was tired and not in a good mood and certainly gave off the vibe not to talk to me. Funny thing was, people did exactly that. I was greated at the door, but everyone, my wife included, pretty much kept a wide bearth. I started off a bit ticked, but quickly realized that was on me. It is not up to others to beg to be around me - I need to give them a reason to as well. Are you giving him a reason to interact with you?
> 
> Finally, when is the last time you did something nice for him when you got home? Ever stop by the store to pick up his favorite take out or beer? Again, what do you do to make him feel special? Is it truly him falling down or is it both of you letting life get in the way?


As per the first line of my paragraph you quote, he never takes on board what I say. Sometimes he's do it once, but that's it, even if it is gratefully received by me, it doesnt' continue from him.

I often do nice little things for him - pick him up a bar of chocolate that I know he likes at the petrol station on my way home, cook him tea if I'm first home, bake him cakes. OK, no grand gestures, but I am not asking for grand gestures either.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

VickiC said:


> As per the first line of my paragraph you quote, he never takes on board what I say. Sometimes he's do it once, but that's it, even if it is gratefully received by me, it doesnt' continue from him.
> 
> I often do nice little things for him - pick him up a bar of chocolate that I know he likes at the petrol station on my way home, cook him tea if I'm first home, bake him cakes. OK, no grand gestures, but I am not asking for grand gestures either.


Thanks for the response. He does seem to be falling down on this. 

Let me suggest you search for His Needs Her Needs and have the two of you fill out the questionaire. It can be helpful to determine your "love languages", that is, how do you recieve love. It may help him to understand that he needs to do these little things for you to receive his love. It also may help you if the things you are doing to show love (baking a cake, for example), are not ways that he "hears" or receives very well. It may help you to work smarter with your relationship.


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