# "I don't know if I want to be married any more."



## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

That's what I heard yesterday. My wife and I have been married for over six years, and we have two children (5 and 3). By all appearances things are good - we are successful, the kids are about as happy and healthy as they can be, and we make a very strong effort to maintain our own relationship despite having children (having agreed that losing your own identity to that of a parent is bad).

I am previously divorced. My first wife struggled with depression for the entirety of our relationship (probably still does) and eventually broke. We weren't all that compatible to begin with, but we did go through counseling. She had already pretty much checked out, so her heart wasn't in it, and nobody wanted to believe that it was anything other than our marriage. Eventually she was unable to hide her deep depression, drug use, and alcoholism from her family, and (I believe) as part of her recovery program I did get a tearful apology and an assurance that I didn't do anything wrong, I was a wonderful husband, and I would've been a wonderful father. That actually mattered a lot to me personally from a recovery perspective, though it had zero bearing on what was then an ended relationship.

The point of this is not to say much of anything other than I have experience with marriage, divorce, interpersonal conflict, depression, bad relationships, and a lot of things that my current wife does not. I am cautious in how I say this as I don't want to minimize any of her feelings or concerns, but I try to tell her that marriage is work and in relationships there are lot of things that can go wrong. In all honesty our present marriage is a lot less work than my previous as we are much more compatible. But for somebody who lacks that experience, there really isn't a way to convey that to them in a way that they will understand. You simply have to go through it.

My wife has been swamped with work, which is partly because she lets herself be taken advantage of and partly because she struggles to maintain a healthy work/life balance. She used to work out during the day, and I'm aware of the effects on endorphin levels. She has gained weight and it bothers her, though it's honestly very little and relative to the general population next to nothing. She travels occasionally, and she used to check in frequently. That has gotten less and less, to the point now where (she is presently on travel) she doesn't really respond to texts and if she calls it's less than a minute or so before there's an urgent reason to end it. This isn't just me, it's the children too. It's as if she wants to escape her life, which while circumstances are different is exactly what happened before. Just like then, there isn't really a reason why, as I've been assured she loves me and I'm a wonderful husband and father. Being objective as I can be, that's true, which makes this all the more frustrating.

For those wondering, I'm not particularly suspicious of infidelity, though that's obviously a concern and (usually) a reason for something like this.

What I don't understand (I mean, one of the many things) is how she said this with such a cavalier attitude as if it wasn't an incredibly life-altering thing to say. To me, I'll be honest, a lot of the damage has been done by her even saying that. That may not be fair, but having been down this road my first thought is "regroup, reassemble, start the healing process, and begin moving on," especially keeping an eye on how I need to fill the void that would be left behind in my kids.

I guess the main thing I'm not understanding is how you can go from nostalgia for earlier times - which is normal - translates into actually intentionally saying out loud something like that. Sure, I'd have more free time, more disposable income, and much less responsibility if I were single. I think everybody thinks of that. I'm just not sure how you get from there to here.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Are you just working through your thoughts? Or is there something you'd like to discuss? 😬 🤔


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

minimalME said:


> Are you just working through your thoughts? Or is there something you'd like to discuss? 😬 🤔


Both, though not anything specific in the second case.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I’m wondering if she’s conflating the lack of work/life balance to being married? She has other responsibilities besides work so she feels drained but is only seeing the problem stemming from being married. If she were single, she may think that her life outside of work would be more carefree. That could be true for both of you but she might inherit other issues that she didn’t bank on. There are always trade offs in life.

If people stay married for the wrong reasons, that’s not healthy and the same if you get divorced for the wrong reasons. I don’t know what else could be going on but that’s what jumped out at me from your post.

I wouldn’t entirely rule out that she may be chatting to someone, not necessarily infidelity, but a guy who could be distracting her. I hope not because that’s a tougher thing to sort out.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I just can't understand the indecision? to me although it would be a painful decision, I would end the marriage. Once I'm told "I don't know If I want to be married anymore" it would be like a stab to the heart, and it would just kill it right there and then. Too much self-respect and dignity to just stand there like nothing was said.

Moreover, you'd think that knowing her is enough reason to not be suspicious that some sort of infidelity might not be part of the equation. I beg to differ. You should rule it out if possible. But like I said, the "I don't know If I want to be married anymore" would be more than than sufficient for me to say: I will make certain that you know shortly, just wait for divorce papers to be serve and then you'll be certain.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

*Deidre* said:


> I’m wondering if she’s conflating the lack of work/life balance to being married? She has other responsibilities besides work so she feels drained but is only seeing the problem stemming from being married. If she were single, she may think that her life outside of work would be more carefree. That could be true for both of you but she might inherit other issues that she didn’t bank on. There are always trade offs in life.
> 
> If people stay married for the wrong reasons, that’s not healthy and the same if you get divorced for the wrong reasons. I don’t know what else oils be going on but that’s what jumped out at me from your post.
> 
> I wouldn’t entirely rule out that she may be chatting to someone, not necessarily infidelity, but a guy who could be distracting her. I hope not because that’s a tougher thing to sort out.


That's probably a large part of it. It's definitely a contributor, and it could certainly be the entirety of it. The demands of her job have progressively ramped up over the years and it's not really possible to compare the times before to now because too many other things have changed as well. 

And you're right, I really hope it's not somebody else, because while a simpler explanation that would be far more difficult to deal with.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

What was it that brought on that statement? Was it just in the middle of a conversation out of the blue, an argument, what?

I wouldn't rule out infidelity yet either. Not much other than limerence is going to make a woman become distant to her husband and children. I also wouldn't get completely hung up on it, but it is worth doing a little digging, especially since she has opportunity with business travel. 

Have you discussed the issues going on in your marriage?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Why don’t you just ask her what is going on.

Ask if she is having an affair.

Ask why she never wants to talk when she is away on a trip.

Ask if she is just overwhelmed by everything.

Ask if she wants a divorce.

Ask why everything has changed.

Ask if she needs to find another job that isn’t so demanding.

You will have to push the conversation until it all comes out.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What was it that brought on that statement? Was it just in the middle of a conversation out of the blue, an argument, what?
> 
> I wouldn't rule out infidelity yet either. Not much other than limerence is going to make a woman become distant to her husband and children. I also wouldn't get completely hung up on it, but it is worth doing a little digging, especially since she has opportunity with business travel.
> 
> Have you discussed the issues going on in your marriage?


I too wonder what the context of this statement was?

What had you said directly before this?


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

She told you this just before leaving on a work trip (or while on her trip)? The timing of that is extremely suspect. 
You’d better go into quiet but high intensity investigation mode immediately. The likelihood of some sort of infidelity is extremely high based on what you’ve laid out here.

Even if she isn’t cheating on you (or preparing to), those words are not a casual statement. She knows the implications what she was saying and she knows exactly how devastating that statement is.

Whatever you do, do NOT try to reason with her, convince or chase her. You need to get to the bottom of this ASAP and be ready to act proactively in your own interest.

How often are you having sex?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

FS8 said:


> That's probably a large part of it. It's definitely a contributor, and it could certainly be the entirety of it. The demands of her job have progressively ramped up over the years and it's not really possible to compare the times before to now because too many other things have changed as well.
> 
> And you're right, I really hope it's not somebody else, because while a simpler explanation that would be far more difficult to deal with.


The old Occam's Razor quip, is often shorthand, apt, and quick to the _quickening _of the matter.
The easiest answer is usually the correct answer.

Those who work incessantly often do so because it is an escape from other less desirable parts of their life.

She is enjoying her work life. 
Oh, yeah.

She is an independent person at work.

At work, she is not a mother, and not a wife.
She is a _mostly_ independent member of a team.

At work, she has duties, and she gets that satisfaction when completing them.
At home, there are conflicting schedules, there is always a bit of chaos, of being pulled in too many directions.
At home, frustration is a given.

Work life is usually different.
A well oiled team has that ego boosting camaraderie.

At work, she is as available for romance, if she chooses.

Many people do choose this behavior.
If feels good, with the other person a part time love interest.

The (personal) down sides are few, until one gets caught, or one decides to escape the marriage, without naming the reason.

Note: she is ignoring her children....a big *Red Flag.*


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Our sex life has been good (probably better than average) by normal standards, based on age and life situation. I did just call her and she said that she is not having affair or even talking to other men. I pushed this issue and I will believe her for now. That would have made the conversation very short.

The remainder was disjointed and nonsensical. The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love. I asked her if she had thought about what any of that means, as in what her life would look like if she were "on her own." Her friends are all married with children, save for one who has a child but is in the process of divorce. There isn't a "single life" to go back to. You can't. But understanding that to me is as simple as understanding the sky is blue. You can't go back. Everybody knows that.

She sounds broken when she speaks, like she's unable to think clearly. It's honestly like the thought process of a teenager trying to understand romance for the first time. This is very uncharacteristic of her. She has said several times "maybe there's something wrong with me," which seems to be eminently true, but I don't know what. I think she actually does not understand the gravity of what she's saying, and I mentioned that the fact that she can seemingly function in any capacity while this is going on is indicative that something is VERY wrong.

No, I don't reason, or chase, or beg, or anything like that. I've been down this road before. I made it clear when she said "I need some time to collect my thoughts" that the world, including me, does not stop and wait while that happens.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FS8 said:


> Our sex life has been good (probably better than average) by normal standards, based on age and life situation. I did just call her and she said that she is not having affair or even talking to other men. I pushed this issue and I will believe her for now. That would have made the conversation very short.
> 
> The remainder was disjointed and nonsensical. The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love. I asked her if she had thought about what any of that means, as in what her life would look like if she were "on her own." Her friends are all married with children, save for one who has a child but is in the process of divorce. There isn't a "single life" to go back to. You can't. But understanding that to me is as simple as understanding the sky is blue. You can't go back. Everybody knows that.
> 
> ...


Still didn't answer what was the conversation when she said it.

What had you said right before?


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

FS8 said:


> Our sex life has been good (probably better than average) by normal standards, based on age and life situation. I did just call her and she said that she is not having affair or even talking to other men. I pushed this issue and I will believe her for now. That would have made the conversation very short.
> 
> The remainder was disjointed and nonsensical. The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love. I asked her if she had thought about what any of that means, as in what her life would look like if she were "on her own." Her friends are all married with children, save for one who has a child but is in the process of divorce. There isn't a "single life" to go back to. You can't. But understanding that to me is as simple as understanding the sky is blue. You can't go back. Everybody knows that.
> 
> ...


You are not going to "logic" her out of this. The more you talk the more times she will come up with reasons she 'isn't sure she wants to be married'. That's assuming there is not someone else.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Congratulations on asking her if she is having affair.
She may be lying to you....or not.

She is certainly in some sort of fog, and is in the midst of some escape fantasy.

This is a mystery until it isn't.

I see some of this through a telescope.

Change inducing _Uranus _or fog enveloping _Neptune_ has her by her short hairs.

She is being pulled apart/away by outside forces.



_KB-_


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

FS8 said:


> Our sex life has been good (probably better than average) by normal standards, based on age and life situation. I did just call her and she said that she is not having affair or even talking to other men. I pushed this issue and I will believe her for now. That would have made the conversation very short.
> 
> The remainder was disjointed and nonsensical. The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love. I asked her if she had thought about what any of that means, as in what her life would look like if she were "on her own." Her friends are all married with children, save for one who has a child but is in the process of divorce. There isn't a "single life" to go back to. You can't. But understanding that to me is as simple as understanding the sky is blue. You can't go back. Everybody knows that.
> 
> ...


First (just to get it out of the way), you don’t ever ask someone if they’re cheating on you. They will ALWAYS lie. That’s actually the stupidest, most counterproductive thing you could ever do. All it does is tip them off that you’re suspicious so they can be more careful.
You need to QUIETLY investigate because everything she’s telling you is highly indicative of an affair/cheating.

Dude, she’s TELLING you directly that she’s not in love with you and is questioning whether she still wants to be married. And the fact that she told you this means she’s already decided (or is strongly leaning towards) NO.

I highly recommend consulting an attorney now to understand the legal landscape and start preparing yourself in the event that this continues in the direction it’s going.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

1. You seem to have a track record here with a type of woman. That type seems to be "has a very hard time coping". This usually coincides with "has poor boundaries". Both things are a recipe for marital disaster. Marriage ain't for everyone. Why do you think you attract and/or are attracted to such women?

2. This kind of statements from a wife are USUALLY indicative of there being somebody else in the picture.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You can ask and you can get an answer but it doesn’t mean that it’s the truth. IOW, don’t put a lot of trust in what she says at this point.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

FS8 said:


> That's probably a large part of it. It's definitely a contributor, and it could certainly be the entirety of it. _*The demands of her job have progressively ramped up over the years and it's not really possible to compare the times before to now because too many other things have changed as well.*_
> 
> And you're right, I really hope it's not somebody else, because while a simpler explanation that would be far more difficult to deal with.


stop making excuses for your wife being a lousy wife. Divorce her. And she’s cheating.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> stop making excuses for your wife being a lousy wife. Divorce her. And she’s cheating.


Yeah, this sounds like another person is involved. On TAM, the only time a mom detaches from her kids is when a new man is involved. It takes over all of their thinking. Nothing else matters. 

There is a chance being overworked and stressed is causing this, but if that were the case she should be highly motivated to make a change. No job should be worth losing your family over. That again, makes me think there is someone else.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

The statement came up because I raised the question about her distance and initiated the conversation. It wasn't out of the blue, but stemmed from her admission that her state of mind is what it is and how that was affecting things. Not just a "hey, I'm not sure I want to be married any more."

By the way, I deal with salespeople often, and I am pretty good at reading people. I often ask questions I know the answer to to see how people react. There are reasons to initiate a confrontation (via direct questioning) of infidelity. I wanted to gauge her tone and reaction, and also see what (if anything) changes. I'm not sure I learned anything. But the truth is with a loss of trust it doesn't much matter as I can't tell (or rather I don't necessarily believe) much of anything. I am aware of what this usually means, as I mentioned in my first post.

I specifically tried to avoid the characteristics of my first wife in choosing my next. In fact our relationships were as different as can be. I don't know exactly what would be the same or why, but it's obviously something.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

FS8 said:


> She has said several times "maybe there's something wrong with me," which seems to be eminently true, but I don't know what. I think she actually does not understand the gravity of what she's saying, and I mentioned that the fact that she can seemingly function in any capacity while this is going on is indicative that something is VERY wrong.


Do you think she could be on the spectrum? Has she ever been checked for that?

Other than that, I would think there is a 3rd party involved someplace. Can you get a PI to watch her when she is on these trips?


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

jlg07 said:


> Do you think she could be on the spectrum? Has she ever been checked for that?
> 
> Other than that, I would think there is a 3rd party involved someplace. Can you get a PI to watch her when she is on these trips?


On the spectrum? No, I highly doubt it. As I said, this is uncharacteristic.

If I got to the point where I had no trust and would want to engage the services of a PI, I would be well past the point of no return.


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## BeyondRepair007 (Nov 4, 2021)

How would it change things for you if you found out she was cheating?

I'm asking how much work do you want to put into finding out for sure? Does it matter that much?

You've already said a PI is too far.
Some have said walk away now, the hurt from this statement would be enough.

What do you say? Do you want to know? Or just let divorce happen?

For me personally, I needed to know. Others... not so much. There's not a one-size-fits-all answer to this question.


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## thissucks7788 (10 mo ago)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What was it that brought on that statement? Was it just in the middle of a conversation out of the blue, an argument, what?
> 
> I wouldn't rule out infidelity yet either. Not much other than limerence is going to make a woman become distant to her husband and children. I also wouldn't get completely hung up on it, but it is worth doing a little digging, especially since she has opportunity with business travel.
> 
> Have you discussed the issues going on in your marriage?


Yeah, I am sorry but I have to agree with BigDaddyNY about possible limerence going on. Obviously we can't know from our perspective but I am always suspicious when someone suddenly wants out of a reasonably good marriage and doesn't even want to try to work anything out. Either way I am so sorry - this a very sucky position to be in. Best wishes OP.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Yeah, this sounds like another person is involved. On TAM, the only time a mom detaches from her kids is when a new man is involved. It takes over all of their thinking. Nothing else matters.
> 
> There is a chance being overworked and stressed is causing this, but if that were the case she should be highly motivated to make a change. No job should be worth losing your family over. That again, makes me think *there is someone else.*


Yeppir!


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## Zedd (Jul 27, 2021)

FS8 said:


> She sounds broken when she speaks, like she's unable to think clearly. It's honestly like the thought process of a teenager trying to understand romance for the first time. This is very uncharacteristic of her. She has said several times "maybe there's something wrong with me," which seems to be eminently true, but I don't know what. I think she actually does not understand the gravity of what she's saying, and I mentioned that the fact that she can seemingly function in any capacity while this is going on is indicative that something is VERY wrong.


Get her to a therapist/counselor. Seriously. Tons of people are struggling right now and don't know why.


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## ThatDarnGuy! (Jan 11, 2022)

Do you think it's possible that you are unknowingly sabotaging your own marriage? You mentioned how cautious you are with how you speak with her, and treat her due to your first marriage not working out. Maybe those fears and anxiety are spilling over into this marriage.

Her job also sounds very stressful and tiring. I think it's time for her to find a job that doesn't require so much out of her. I have seen people lose their marriage because of their dedication to climbing that corporate ladder. I personally think it's idiotic to stress yourself out to the point of your personality changing over a job.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

How about scheduling a visit to a doctor to evaluate her.

Would she be able to take care of the kids by herself?

If it is a mental break and she is going her own way, I suggest you get full custody of the kids.

Talk with a lawyer and explain everything that has been going on.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ABHale said:


> How about scheduling a visit to a doctor to evaluate her.
> 
> Would she be able to take care of the kids by herself?
> 
> ...


Well I'm not sure it's a mental break. Sounds like she is going through a malaise which could be depression, mid-life crisis, pandemic issues or just not sure she wants to be married anymore. People leave perfectly good spouses on a regular basis. And of course he says he's a great husband don't have any reason to believe he isn't but that doesn't mean she's still finds him attractive, doesn't mean that she feels loved or wanted. She could feel a lot more like just a partner and also feel guilty or undeserving as a wife and mother. There are lots of reasons here that aren't mental breaks.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I'm not sure it's a mental break. Sounds like she is going through a malaise which could be depression, mid-life crisis, pandemic issues or just not sure she wants to be married anymore. People leave perfectly good spouses on a regular basis. And of course he says he's a great husband don't have any reason to believe he isn't but that doesn't mean she's still finds him attractive, doesn't mean that she feels loved or wanted. She could feel a lot more like just a partner and also feel guilty or undeserving as a wife and mother. There are lots of reasons here that aren't mental breaks.


All of which could use the help of a doctor. All could also be considered a breakdown of her mental health. Except if she just doesn’t want to be married anymore. Which wouldn’t cause her to stop talking to the kids as well when she is out of town like she is doing. 

Why so defensive?


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

ABHale said:


> All of which could use the help of a doctor. All could also be considered a breakdown of her mental health. Except if she just doesn’t want to be married anymore. Which wouldn’t cause her to stop talking to the kids as well when she is out of town like she is doing.
> 
> Why so defensive?


Not defensive but full custody for any parent is bit extreme.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Zedd said:


> Get her to a therapist/counselor. Seriously. Tons of people are struggling right now and don't know why.


She said this. One of the things I both love and hate about her is that is very self-aware. She has since apologized profusely for saying these things and has said that she knows she doesn't feel right and should maybe talk to somebody. She can't really put a word on it, but "numb" is how I would describe it. Even in talking recently she was more emotionally subdued than normal.


ThatDarnGuy! said:


> Do you think it's possible that you are unknowingly sabotaging your own marriage? You mentioned how cautious you are with how you speak with her, and treat her due to your first marriage not working out. Maybe those fears and anxiety are spilling over into this marriage.
> 
> Her job also sounds very stressful and tiring. I think it's time for her to find a job that doesn't require so much out of her. I have seen people lose their marriage because of their dedication to climbing that corporate ladder. I personally think it's idiotic to stress yourself out to the point of your personality changing over a job.


It's always possible that I'm doing something unintentionally, but what I meant when I said that was that I am careful not to play the "you haven't been there, you don't know what it's like" card because that's eminently unfair. No, a person who's never been divorced and been in the late stages of a relationship like that can't understand, but saying "I've been in a bad relationship, and this isn't even close to it" isn't something they can understand either.

Yes, her job is demanding, and she's aware of this. She has bandied about the idea of changing jobs a few times and has even gone through the interview process once. I personally do not think it's worth it, but she's recently started getting the recognition she deserves. This trip is actually supposed to be about representing the company at a trade conference and then going overseas to corporate headquarters as one of the few invitees from the US organization. I don't know what, if anything, will actually change, but she's supposed to get as many as 15 new reports in the upcoming year which should (in theory, anyway) take a lot off her plate.


Anastasia6 said:


> Well I'm not sure it's a mental break. Sounds like she is going through a malaise which could be depression, mid-life crisis, pandemic issues or just not sure she wants to be married anymore. People leave perfectly good spouses on a regular basis. And of course he says he's a great husband don't have any reason to believe he isn't but that doesn't mean she's still finds him attractive, doesn't mean that she feels loved or wanted. She could feel a lot more like just a partner and also feel guilty or undeserving as a wife and mother. There are lots of reasons here that aren't mental breaks.


It's not a mental break. I've been there. You could call this any of the things you mentioned, and indeed we both tend to agree that the "redefinition" of marriage in the last 50 years has basically made it meaningless, ultimately nullifying the need or desire to get married in the first place. But we did just the same. And yes, everything else you mentioned is not only a perfectly valid reason, they are feelings that I would imagine most married women and mothers have at some point. Men have similar thoughts. Maybe we all walk the razor's edge of those feelings becoming more than transient. As of our last conversation she admitted that she likes the feeling of being "free" when she's on travel, but knows that isn't practical or responsible. I don't think any honest individual who's not a complete homebody wouldn't say the same. I went to Hawaii for ten days (partly for work, partly for pleasure with a good friend of mine) when my oldest was in diapers, and it was great.

Also, to clarify, she doesn't ignore the kids. She talks to them, more so when she's in the same time zone, but still less than I'm used to. Then again she hasn't been outside our time zone since before the pandemic. When she travels to the US corporate office (a short flight) her calling is a lot less of an event.

And finally, I know this site is famous for immediately assuming infidelity (it hasn't changed in that regard since my first visit here more than ten years ago). When we talked I explained as clearly as possible the sequence of events that would lead me to believe what I believe (or rather feel what I feel) and explained how this now puts me in the opposing position of wanting to help the person I love(d) and trust(ed) more than anybody else and simultaneously being unsure of whether I can trust that same person. Infidelity is disqualifying and has been since before we even get together, and I did not expect anything other than "no" when I asked.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

Anastasia6 said:


> Not defensive but full custody for any parent is bit extreme.


Not when a child’s life might be at risk.

We have a young mother in jail who is responsible for the death of her little girl.

No need to mention the other stories where the mother has snapped and taken the lives of their kids.

I also mentioned before that about getting her some help if she is having a mental issue. OP has lived through it once before and should be able to notice if this is the situation or not to a point.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

FS8 said:


> The remainder was disjointed and nonsensical. The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love. I asked her if she had thought about what any of that means, as in what her life would look like if she were "on her own." Her friends are all married with children, save for one who has a child but is in the process of divorce. There isn't a "single life" to go back to. You can't. But understanding that to me is as simple as understanding the sky is blue. You can't go back. Everybody knows that.
> 
> She sounds broken when she speaks, like she's unable to think clearly. It's honestly like the thought process of a teenager trying to understand romance for the first time. This is very uncharacteristic of her. She has said several times "maybe there's something wrong with me," which seems to be eminently true, but I don't know what. I think she actually does not understand the gravity of what she's saying, and I mentioned that the fact that she can seemingly function in any capacity while this is going on is indicative that something is VERY wrong.


Some of the things you say makes me think you are not leading the marriage; she is. Further, you are trying to solve this with logic and your wife is clearly emotional. It's going to be an uphill battle trying to change the dynamic of the marriage as it's already broken. If it was my wife that said this to me, we'd be splitting assets already.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

FS8 said:


> The statement came up because I raised the question about her distance and initiated the conversation. It wasn't out of the blue, but stemmed from her admission that her state of mind is what it is and how that was affecting things. Not just a "hey, I'm not sure I want to be married any more."
> 
> By the way, I deal with salespeople often, and I am pretty good at reading people. I often ask questions I know the answer to to see how people react. There are reasons to initiate a confrontation (via direct questioning) of infidelity. I wanted to gauge her tone and reaction, and also see what (if anything) changes. I'm not sure I learned anything. But the truth is with a loss of trust it doesn't much matter as I can't tell (or rather I don't necessarily believe) much of anything. I am aware of what this usually means, as I mentioned in my first post.
> 
> I specifically tried to avoid the characteristics of my first wife in choosing my next. In fact our relationships were as different as can be. I don't know exactly what would be the same or why, but it's obviously something.


Your proximity to the situation will (in all likelihood) cloud or outright subvert your ability to spot a lie. 

There is a reason they don't allow investigators to look into crimes for which they may have been directly impacted. 

Do the work; investigate...because the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech, which is essentially what she gave you, is one of the biggest red flags for cheating in existence. 

I am not saying she is definitively cheating, but based on this limited information, I would place my money on infidelity at this point. 

Start by looking at your phone bill, assuming you share a plan. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Asterix (May 16, 2021)

FS8 said:


> On the spectrum? No, I highly doubt it. As I said, this is uncharacteristic.
> 
> If I got to the point where I had no trust and would want to engage the services of a PI, I would be well past the point of no return.





Anastasia6 said:


> Well I'm not sure it's a mental break. Sounds like she is going through a malaise which could be depression, mid-life crisis, pandemic issues or just not sure she wants to be married anymore. People leave perfectly good spouses on a regular basis. And of course he says he's a great husband don't have any reason to believe he isn't but that doesn't mean she's still finds him attractive, doesn't mean that she feels loved or wanted. She could feel a lot more like just a partner and also feel guilty or undeserving as a wife and mother. There are lots of reasons here that aren't mental breaks.


I have a couple of suggestions for you to consider.

Could this be because she's overworked and does not have a downtime of her own?

Due to her dedication to work that she enjoys, the time spent with the husband and kids becomes a chore?

Could she be perimenopausal/menopausal which may have caused to have some depression? Since she's working such long hours, she may be close to burnout if she's not there already? Taken these two things together can certainly bring up a sense of detachment and apathy towards life.

Or she may just be done with it and wants out. In that case, does she really, I mean really understand that divorce is a nuclear option and it's very difficult to come back from?

Or for all you know, this might be just ye olde' garden variety cheating? She knows you better and knows how to make a convincing argument with you. So, she is able to hide her extra-marital activities better.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Asterix said:


> I have a couple of suggestions for you to consider.
> 
> Could this be because she's overworked and does not have a downtime of her own?
> 
> ...


She is a generally social person, and that hasn't happened much recently. As mentioned, we share the importance of maintaining your own identity throughout the process of having and raising children, but most don't. So most of our friends have almost entirely given up their own social lives, limiting her opportunities to get out of the house. She doesn't want to go by herself unless it's something like yoga, which I get. So there's definitely a hard-wired need to socialize that isn't being met with just family (ours or extended), and of course the pandemic didn't help that. If I had to guess I would say that she's trying, consciously or unconsciously, to fill some of that void with work, and that just leads to more work. The general truth of not having downtime of her own is true, and while I don't travel I do play baseball, go bowling, occasionally hit the bars with friends, that sort of thing. So we each have our own time, just in different ways. Personally I don't think relying on business travel as "me time" is a great idea for a variety of reasons, most notably that you don't choose your coworkers and may not get along with them that well. 

I don't think time spent with us is a chore, though the kids are at an age where they are testing boundaries as often as not and that can be frustrating. We've had some great times recently.

She's far too young for menopause, though a lot of things can certainly combine to cause depression. There are definitely some things there that would indicate it, though having dealt with severe depression before in my first wife I wouldn't say that's a major concern. Then again, everybody is different, so who knows. I will say that being overworked leads her to work out less, and that has led to her weight gain, which makes her feel worse, and on and on. My ex was not active save for a few months at some point where she decided to get in better shape, and that was the most sexually active we were in the entire marriage. She was also less depressed. So I know there's a lot of value in that.

I appreciate that you take the time to actually think about things other than automatically assume that everything is cheating. A lot of people here think anything other than surreptitiously tracking your spouse and immediately contacting an attorney is a sign of weakness. But that said, when we talked yesterday and she was rambling about the chaotic state of her brain, I said something like "fine, let's find out. You want to be alone, try it out. I'll take your clothing to your mother's and we can figure out the rest later." That seemed to snap her back to reality, and I received several apologetic texts about her wishing she hadn't said anything, hadn't thought about it, all of that. So I think it dawned on her at least a little.

She has never been a good liar or able to hide much of anything, and honestly there are few opportunities logistically to even meet other people face to face. We both work from home, and the times when I'm away she has the children to take care of. That's not by design or anything, it just works out that way. That doesn't make it impossible. It would make it pretty hard to engineer. I'm inherently skeptical and given my life experience I find trust generally somewhat more difficult than the average person, but it hasn't been a concern of mine. I wouldn't say it is now either, but I think we're all aware it is a possibility. I'm not naive.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FS8 said:


> "regroup, reassemble, start the healing process, and begin moving on," especially keeping an eye on how I need to fill the void that would be left behind in my kids.


If she doesn't want to be married anymore, what more can you do?



FS8 said:


> The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love.


She told you she wants to me "alone", or at least not with you and her kids. Highly unusual for a mother to abandon her kids, but it does happen. You can't "reason" a person out of what they want. 



FS8 said:


> I made it clear when she said "I need some time to collect my thoughts" that *the world, including me, does not stop and wait while that happens.*


Very good. She can "find herself" but not on your time.


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## Lotsofheart73 (Oct 13, 2021)

OP- do you and your wife talk about the future much? What kinds of plans the two of you have together? Do you two regular discuss looking forward to certain milestone events both individually and regarding the kids? From my perspective it sounds like your wife may have some depression and just general feeling of being lost in the world at this time in her life.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Lotsofheart73 said:


> OP- do you and your wife talk about the future much? What kinds of plans the two of you have together? Do you two regular discuss looking forward to certain milestone events both individually and regarding the kids? From my perspective it sounds like your wife may have some depression and just general feeling of being lost in the world at this time in her life.


The kids are young, so we don't discuss things like me walking them down the aisle at some point at any length. Obviously, starting kindergarten (my oldest will in a few months), and we have ideas of things we want to do. Some of these are vacations - things to do, places to see, both with and without the kids. We often talk about wanting to live somewhere else - we are in a semi-rural exurb, though working from home we don't need to be here. So we do like to plan our future home somewhere more in the country. I honestly don't know how much other people talk about their dreams and their future, but I'd say we do as much as anybody.

I think the feeling of being lost is true. My wife has often said that she hates her own gender, and I'm not sure that's tongue in cheek to any significant extent. The "suburban white woman" as it stereotypically exists is the bane of both of us. They have lots of names - wine moms, Karens, whatever. But I know she gets frustrated that her "friends" spend far too much time inventing all sorts of problems - for themselves, their kids, society at large - and then worrying about these things. She wants to sit around a fire with her friends having a beer (or wine, or whiskey) listening to music and talking about normal things. She doesn't want to sit around with a bunch of harpies gossiping about nonsense and worrying about damn near everything. She does feel out of place and could certainly use more like-minded friends, but those are hard to find.

That may be at least in part a driver of why she wants to move more rural. We don't fit in very well in our general area, though we live in a pocket of mostly level-headed people. It's not a big issue right now and I wouldn't really bank on a change of scenery fixing anything. It might, but usually that's just treating the symptom and not the problem.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Sounds like your wife has feelings of discontent with a number of facets in her life. Weighing in as a woman here, I'll give you my take: If she says she doesn't know if she wants to stay in the marriage, something IS up. I'm not trying to jump on the she's-cheating bandwagon, but when women say they're unhappy in the marriage or having doubts as to whether or not she should stay, it's a major warning signal.

There could be an EA going on. There could even be a PA. Granted, I can only speak from my own personal experience (and bias), but if I told my husband I was questioning my role as wife and mother, it would pretty much mean that I'm REALLY unhappy with myself AND the marriage.

It sounds like she could benefit from weekly counseling sessions to clarify what is causing such discontent. This may sound somewhat far-out, but do you feel your wife is somewhat emotionally stunted or immature when it comes to handling marriage and motherhood? Could this be why she's unsure?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Maybe she was expecting you to talk her into staying married — in whatever form that would take — and when you told her she could go to her mom’s and think about it for awhile it got real that the outcome might not be what she really wants.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Prodigal said:


> Sounds like your wife has feelings of discontent with a number of facets in her life. Weighing in as a woman here, I'll give you my take: If she says she doesn't know if she wants to stay in the marriage, something IS up. I'm not trying to jump on the she's-cheating bandwagon, but when women say they're unhappy in the marriage or having doubts as to whether or not she should stay, it's a major warning signal.
> 
> There could be an EA going on. There could even be a PA. Granted, I can only speak from my own personal experience (and bias), but if I told my husband I was questioning my role as wife and mother, it would pretty much mean that I'm REALLY unhappy with myself AND the marriage.
> 
> It sounds like she could benefit from weekly counseling sessions to clarify what is causing such discontent. This may sound somewhat far-out, but do you feel your wife is somewhat emotionally stunted or immature when it comes to handling marriage and motherhood? Could this be why she's unsure?


She didn't directly say she didn't want to be married to me. She did say that she felt like she loved me but wasn't in love, which we all know is one of the oldest lines in the book and often a cover for everything else. She said she was questioning why people got married, extending that to "maybe I shouldn't be married." It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, though it reminded me of conversations we would have on the philosophy of the world early on in our relationship. Also, she has not questioned her role as a mother, and specifically stated she loved being a mom and if she weren't married would not give that up. I'm not sure how much difference this makes, but it is certainly different to me when my ex said that she wanted a relationship and wanted to be a mother, just not with me. That was very direct.

She did mention counseling, and depending on how the conversation goes when she gets home I will support that idea. I think I've made my feelings as clear as they can be made over the phone, but that only goes so far. Also, no, I wouldn't say she's emotionally stunted. Everybody has their defense mechanism, and hers is to flee. Though I do not understand (neither does she, it seems) from what. I would say she's relatively inexperienced, this being her first marriage. She had been in several "extended" relationships before that ended for various reasons, at least two of which were men cheating on her. I don't necessarily think her family history or relationship history is all that different from the average person. I didn't know her so I don't really know the extent of her previous relationships (we've talked about it, obviously, though not as an analytical exercise or anything).


Openminded said:


> Maybe she was expecting you to talk her into staying married — in whatever form that would take — and when you told her she could go to her mom’s and think about it for awhile it got real that the outcome might not be what she really wants.


I honestly don't know how much of that was "oh, I guess I would then need to share my (hopefully temporary) insanity with my parents" and how much was "oh, that's what this would actually mean," but yeah, that certainly made a difference. Also, for what it's worth, she (like many women, as far as I can tell) wants to be pursued. I think it's normal to want or need reassurance that you are similarly wanted or needed in the relationship, but I don't think "I'm leaving, come after me" is a reasonable approach to that I and I will not play that game. My personal view (which may or may not be shared by others) is that you can't really "date" after a while as your relationship grows and changes, but I still try to show that I love her and continue to grow in our relationship. I'm a hunter and I like the thrill of the chase as much as anybody, so I get to some degree the other side of that.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I hope for your sake you are right about the situation, FS. 

When I suggested you investigate, it wasn't because I was convinced she was cheating. It is because how you deal with a cheating spouse versus one who is on the verge of walking away is dramatically different. 

Know what you are up against. 

"Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

-Sun Tzu

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

FS8 said:


> Everybody has their defense mechanism, and hers is to flee. Though I do not understand (neither does she, it seems) from what.


I also mentioned it could be emotional immaturity. Several times you have mentioned that she's "inexperienced" since this is her first marriage. Could it be that "inexperienced" equates (to some degree) to immaturity? After all, fleeing from one's problems, be they real or imagined, isn't the mark of a mature person.


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## Lotsofheart73 (Oct 13, 2021)

To me it seems like she is unhappy with her life situation and perhaps feels powerless to change things. And by changes things I don’t mean divorcing. She wants to make things better for herself but doesn’t know how. She may be in the “so this it … this is life” stage. Not meaning that she doesn’t want to be a mom or a wife but that things just aren’t as she imagined and is drowning in trying to figure out her life. I don’t know. Counseling may help.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

FS8 said:


> She didn't directly say she didn't want to be married to me. She did say that she felt like she loved me but wasn't in love, which we all know is one of the oldest lines in the book and often a cover for everything else. She said she was questioning why people got married, extending that to "maybe I shouldn't be married." It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, though it reminded me of conversations we would have on the philosophy of the world early on in our relationship. Also, she has not questioned her role as a mother, and specifically stated she loved being a mom and if she weren't married would not give that up. I'm not sure how much difference this makes, but it is certainly different to me when my ex said that she wanted a relationship and wanted to be a mother, just not with me. That was very direct.
> 
> She did mention counseling, and depending on how the conversation goes when she gets home I will support that idea. I think I've made my feelings as clear as they can be made over the phone, but that only goes so far. Also, no, I wouldn't say she's emotionally stunted. Everybody has their defense mechanism, and hers is to flee. Though I do not understand (neither does she, it seems) from what. I would say she's relatively inexperienced, this being her first marriage. She had been in several "extended" relationships before that ended for various reasons, at least two of which were men cheating on her. I don't necessarily think her family history or relationship history is all that different from the average person. I didn't know her so I don't really know the extent of her previous relationships (we've talked about it, obviously, though not as an analytical exercise or anything).
> 
> I honestly don't know how much of that was "oh, I guess I would then need to share my (hopefully temporary) insanity with my parents" and how much was "oh, that's what this would actually mean," but yeah, that certainly made a difference. Also, for what it's worth, she (like many women, as far as I can tell) wants to be pursued. I think it's normal to want or need reassurance that you are similarly wanted or needed in the relationship, but I don't think "I'm leaving, come after me" is a reasonable approach to that I and I will not play that game. My personal view (which may or may not be shared by others) is that you can't really "date" after a while as your relationship grows and changes, but I still try to show that I love her and continue to grow in our relationship. I'm a hunter and I like the thrill of the chase as much as anybody, so I get to some degree the other side of that.


OK, so you’ve had time and a lot of opinions/advice to analyze and assess your situation and options. Now what are you going to DO?

Because a clear plan and decisive course of action is critical.
This situation could go very badly, very quickly and you need to be actively taking steps to take control of your situation and get ahead of it now.
If you just sit by, passively watching and waiting, you’ll most likely get smoked.


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## Desiderata (8 mo ago)

I'm stunned to have found this thread because I've been feeling quite similarly to your wife in my own marriage recently. The words that you used about her having a mind filled with chaos, to wanting to be free, being acutely aware of maintaining one's own identity in marriage, philosophising in the past about the point of marriage, being self-aware, and how you surmised that she felt lost and/or numb, etc...all of that really resonated with me in so many ways.

I have not told hubby that I was thinking of leaving the marriage. For me, that's taking it a tad too far - actually verbalising something which I haven't fully come to terms with myself.

I'm mid-30s...2 kids. Professional about to switch careers because I just need more mental stimulation in my life.

Recently I felt the need to revisit Schopenhauer and his whole "restlessly striving" ideology. I feel like your wife is restlessly striving - searching for something more but she is not quite certain of what that "more" is.

It could be desire - because desire and love are two opposite things. Well, at least married love can be so devoid of the fiery, passionate desire that was likely there at the beginning.

While others before me suggested infidelity, or at the very least looking into that as being a possibility, I might go against the grain and suggest that infidelity can sometimes be a fantasy which can sometimes bleed into reality as a restless striving or a yearning for desire and to be desired. This doesn't mean that there is a PA or EA...yet. Even interacting with men who may resonate on the same level in any capacity may provide enough limerence to bring up these feelings of wanting to be free.


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## thissucks7788 (10 mo ago)

Desiderata said:


> I'm stunned to have found this thread because I've been feeling quite similarly to your wife in my own marriage recently. The words that you used about her having a mind filled with chaos, to wanting to be free, being acutely aware of maintaining one's own identity in marriage, philosophising in the past about the point of marriage, being self-aware, and how you surmised that she felt lost and/or numb, etc...all of that really resonated with me in so many ways.
> 
> I have not told hubby that I was thinking of leaving the marriage. For me, that's taking it a tad too far - actually verbalising something which I haven't fully come to terms with myself.
> 
> ...


Interesting perspective. Is there anything that your husband could do to help you? Try to create sparks and desire? What if anything could be done by your SO to make things better for you or is it just something you have to go through on your own? That insight could be valuable to the OP.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

thissucks7788 said:


> Interesting perspective. Is there anything that your husband could do to help you? Try to create sparks and desire? What if anything could be done by your SO to make things better for you or is it just something you have to go through on your own? That insight could be valuable to the OP.


Yeah, I'd like to know that too. It is definitely interesting to hear a woman's perspective that's in very much the same place, but what I did not hear was any possible way out. Neither my wife nor her have suggested the husband or even the marriage is missing something.

To me, many women (all, for all I know) crave that initial spark. I understand this, as men enjoy that initial phase as well. I think that's human nature. What I think represents a complete lack of perspective is thinking that can be recaptured with the same individual. You can't go back in time. It's not like it's just missing - you've grown in your relationship. The raw attraction and passion has evolved into true abiding love, having been through the ups and downs of life to a point where you're comfortable going to the bathroom with the door open and having your partner examine unpleasant medical issues. You've been through fights and happiness. Lust turns into love, but absent an "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" occurrence you can't go back. This is just a pet peeve of mine, and I don't think it's a main driver of my current situation. To the extent she verbalized anything clearly there was only a passing mention of "love, but not in love" that is honestly common to almost every relationship.

For what it's worth, I find the search for that to be a true fool's errand. My parents have been divorced for over 20 years. My dad found another woman, and they are pretty good together. My mom threw out those same lines - wanting that desire, that spark, that twinkle in his eye, the whole light up the room thing, and all that stuff that belongs on cat posters in a teenage girl's room. She will be 70 this year and I often tell her (lovingly, of course) that she will die alone because she's looking for something that doesn't exist. It's a running joke in our family. But to be honest it's something that has to be enjoyed while it's there. It's like the stages of childhood - if you love babies, the sane thing to do is to enjoy your babies while you have them, not continue to have children so you can enjoy that brief period.

Sorry for the rant, as I'm not sure this is all that relevant to my situation.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I think you’re correct that some women want the fairytale.


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## thissucks7788 (10 mo ago)

FS8 said:


> Yeah, I'd like to know that too. It is definitely interesting to hear a woman's perspective that's in very much the same place, but what I did not hear was any possible way out. Neither my wife nor her have suggested the husband or even the marriage is missing something.
> 
> To me, many women (all, for all I know) crave that initial spark. I understand this, as men enjoy that initial phase as well. I think that's human nature. What I think represents a complete lack of perspective is thinking that can be recaptured with the same individual. You can't go back in time. It's not like it's just missing - you've grown in your relationship. The raw attraction and passion has evolved into true abiding love, having been through the ups and downs of life to a point where you're comfortable going to the bathroom with the door open and having your partner examine unpleasant medical issues. You've been through fights and happiness. Lust turns into love, but absent an "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" occurrence you can't go back. This is just a pet peeve of mine, and I don't think it's a main driver of my current situation. To the extent she verbalized anything clearly there was only a passing mention of "love, but not in love" that is honestly common to almost every relationship.
> 
> ...


For what it is worth-- I'm a woman and I agree with you. In fact you are correct about not really being able to get that initial feeling again with the same person. It's called limerence and it causes chemical reactions in the brain when a new person excites them. After limerence fades (and it always does) either you break up or it turns into the more mature relationship/love that you described. Some get addicted to this feeling and jump from person to person. Often your partner forgets that they may have initially had this limerence with you as well b/c it was so long ago. You can't really get limerence back with the same person but you can get some more sparks by having new experiences etc...


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FS8 said:


> She didn't directly say she didn't want to be married to me. She did say that she felt like she loved me but wasn't in love, which we all know is one of the oldest lines in the book and often a cover for everything else. She said she was questioning why people got married, extending that to "maybe I shouldn't be married." It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me, though it reminded me of conversations we would have on the philosophy of the world early on in our relationship. Also, she has not questioned her role as a mother, and specifically stated she loved being a mom and if she weren't married would not give that up. I'm not sure how much difference this makes, but it is certainly different to me when my ex said that she wanted a relationship and wanted to be a mother, just not with me. That was very direct.
> 
> She did mention counseling, and depending on how the conversation goes when she gets home I will support that idea. I think I've made my feelings as clear as they can be made over the phone, but that only goes so far. Also, no, I wouldn't say she's emotionally stunted. Everybody has their defense mechanism, and hers is to flee. Though I do not understand (neither does she, it seems) from what. I would say she's relatively inexperienced, this being her first marriage. She had been in several "extended" relationships before that ended for various reasons, at least two of which were men cheating on her. I don't necessarily think her family history or relationship history is all that different from the average person. I didn't know her so I don't really know the extent of her previous relationships (we've talked about it, obviously, though not as an analytical exercise or anything).
> 
> I honestly don't know how much of that was "oh, I guess I would then need to share my (hopefully temporary) insanity with my parents" and how much was "oh, that's what this would actually mean," but yeah, that certainly made a difference. Also, for what it's worth, she (like many women, as far as I can tell) wants to be pursued. I think it's normal to want or need reassurance that you are similarly wanted or needed in the relationship, but I don't think "I'm leaving, come after me" is a reasonable approach to that I and I will not play that game. My personal view (which may or may not be shared by others) is that you can't really "date" after a while as your relationship grows and changes, but I still try to show that I love her and continue to grow in our relationship. I'm a hunter and I like the thrill of the chase as much as anybody, so I get to some degree the other side of that.


So she has given you the ILYBINILWU line. And that she wants the kids and likes being a mom. Thinks she would rather not be married.

How much good does therapy actually do to change a person’s mindset? Having had close family spend years and lots of bucks on it, my jaundiced view is it is a waste of time.

She seems unhappy with her life, which includes marriage to you, and wants a change. Whether there is another man is irrelevant. She has unbonded from you and wants to live without you. How can you do anything at all to change that?


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

FS8 said:


> Yeah, I'd like to know that too. It is definitely interesting to hear a woman's perspective that's in very much the same place, but what I did not hear was any possible way out. Neither my wife nor her have suggested the husband or even the marriage is missing something.
> 
> To me, many women (all, for all I know) crave that initial spark. I understand this, as men enjoy that initial phase as well. I think that's human nature. What I think represents a complete lack of perspective is thinking that can be recaptured with the same individual. You can't go back in time. It's not like it's just missing - you've grown in your relationship. The raw attraction and passion has evolved into true abiding love, having been through the ups and downs of life to a point where you're comfortable going to the bathroom with the door open and having your partner examine unpleasant medical issues. You've been through fights and happiness. Lust turns into love, but absent an "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" occurrence you can't go back. This is just a pet peeve of mine, and I don't think it's a main driver of my current situation. To the extent she verbalized anything clearly there was only a passing mention of "love, but not in love" that is honestly common to almost every relationship.
> 
> ...


Although you can't truly get the newness feeling back in a mature relationship, you can absolutely keep the spark alive or even rekindle it. Same with the passion and lustful feelings. You can also stay in love. We've been married 32 years and the passion and spark are very much alive. And I can tell you, that once we went empty nest, it felt like a new relationship with that same old spark, but also with the advantage of a multi decade familiarity.

The way you talk it sounds like you think all marriages are just destined for some rut with a lack of sexual desire and lust. I simply can't agree with that at all. That is something you choose to allow and don't recognize and stop from happening. It isn't inevitable.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Although you can't truly get the newness feeling back in a mature relationship, you can absolutely keep the spark alive or even rekindle it. Same with the passion and lustful feelings. You can also stay in love. We've been married 32 years and the passion and spark are very much alive. And I can tell you, that once we went empty nest, it felt like a new relationship with that same old spark, but also with the advantage of a multi decade familiarity.
> 
> The way you talk it sounds like you think all marriages are just destined for some rut with a lack of sexual desire and lust. I simply can't agree with that at all. That is something you choose to allow and don't recognize and stop from happening. It isn't inevitable.


That's not what I said. You're equating the post-honeymoon period with "some rut with a lack of sexual desire and lust." There is an ocean of difference between a mature relationship that remains attractive and fulfilling and a sexless marriage between roommates or co-parents. ALL relationships advance past that initial point. It isn't possible to avoid. What I'm saying is that it's not achievable to maintain that honeymoon period indefinitely.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Although you can't truly get the newness feeling back in a mature relationship, you can absolutely keep the spark alive or even rekindle it. Same with the passion and lustful feelings. You can also stay in love. We've been married 32 years and the passion and spark are very much alive. And I can tell you, that once we went empty nest, it felt like a new relationship with that same old spark, but also with the advantage of a multi decade familiarity.
> 
> *The way you talk it sounds like you think all marriages are just destined for some rut with a lack of sexual desire and lust. *I simply can't agree with that at all. That is something you choose to allow and don't recognize and stop from happening. It isn't inevitable.


People that dont have it think it doesnt happen and that being in love goes away always. Just because we havent experienced it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. As you think so shall it be.

More than 5 decades here married. Still as much in love as when we met. “Honeymoon phase” if you want to call it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

IMO, many women who cheat are bored, and disappointed with marriage, and looking for New Relationship Energy with someone new. The problem is that high doesn’t last.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Rus47 said:


> More than 5 decades here married. Still as much in love as when we met. “Honeymoon phase” if you want to call it.


Same here. I can't understand that settle down, easy peaceful feeling. Three decades with my wife and to this day is kissy-kissy, touchy-touchy on a daily basis. Although, at almost 70, I just can't with the at least 3 times a day, but hey at least 3 times a week is not so bad. But, yes those seeking for that initial spark to continue indefinitely like an eternal roman candle are mostly people that did not have a fulfilling upbringing. People that most likely missed having experienced those wonderful childhood and teen years in happiness. Once married, they look back and wish/daydream about it. I know two such ladies, and one dude. They are in their sixties, and still they're trying to re-live those teen/early twenties. They look pathetic to people in our group, but can't tell them anything.


I don't think that people like that make good partners in the long haul.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

FS8 said:


> That's not what I said. You're equating the post-honeymoon period with "some rut with a lack of sexual desire and lust." There is an ocean of difference between a mature relationship that remains attractive and fulfilling and a sexless marriage between roommates or co-parents. ALL relationships advance past that initial point. It isn't possible to avoid. What I'm saying is that it's not achievable to maintain that honeymoon period indefinitely.


This was a much more positive spin on what I thought you said, but still not sure I can agree. In my own personal experience I have feelings and thoughts about my wife today that rival, maybe even surpass, the intensity and raw desire I had when we first entered a sexual relationship almost 35 years ago. No way can we ever recreate that first sexual experience, especially since I lost my virginity to her, but the intensity, desire, and always wanting her is still there, just like in the so called honeymoon phase. She can do the smallest thing that reminds me how much she is still in love with me after 35 years and it will make me want her so bad. Just thinking about it now makes me wish she were here now. She is always on my mind, just like when I was 16. There has been an ebb and flow of these feelings over the years, but it is always there and often burns white hot. You may not understand it or believe it, but I KNOW all relationships don't have to move on past the so called honeymoon phase.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, but many women don’t experience the same level of desire that men do and become bored with sex and sometimes with their marriage. In those cases, cheating is a quick way to get all those new relationship feelings back. Obviously not all bored women cheat but, increasingly, many do. That also applies to men.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Openminded said:


> Yes, but many women don’t experience the same level of desire that men do and become bored with sex and sometimes with their marriage. In those cases, cheating is a quick way to get all those new relationship feelings back. Obviously not all bored women cheat but, increasingly, many do. That also applies to men.


Not everyone becomes bored with sex and I don't quite understand the idea that women's desire being lower causes them to become bored more quickly. I would have thought the opposite to be true. High level of desire drives more need for something new. Wouldn't their lower level of desire mean they aren't as interested in sex period? I only have one data point, but I'm not bored with it and all indications are my wife is not bored with it either. She seems quite eager, lol.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

@FS8 Is this what you think is going on with your wife? Do you feel she is bored with your marriage and wants that "newness"? What you've described sounds more like tired of nearly everything. Just plain not happy. Does she have depression?


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## Asterix (May 16, 2021)

FS8 said:


> So there's definitely a hard-wired need to socialize that isn't being met with just family (ours or extended), and of course the pandemic didn't help that.





FS8 said:


> I don't think time spent with us is a chore,



Thank you for taking the time and clearing up my misconception regarding the situation that you are in. The more I know and if I may be a little presumptuous, I'd say that the more we know, the better we can help you with your situation. So, having all this additional information about your situation certainly helps. 

I'm glad to hear that when you proposed that she moves back to her mom's place, it seem to have brought her out of the fog that she was in. Hopefully that'll get her thinking of what would really happen to her and the family, should she chose to separate. 

One suggestion I have is: There's always an option that you can propose to her: Since the world is slowly coming out from under the rock or shell that we've been living in, there will be more opportunities for her and you to socialize. So, *how about shelving this decision for one year?* You both can see how the additional time with meaningful human interaction helps her (and you). She'll get to have her social life, get her batteries charged and hopefully make her more motivated to be an active part of the family life. Or, she may decide that she really wants to separate, or you may find out that she's indeed having some extra-marital activities. Either way, you both know that you've given it some time, made your best effort to come to a more conscious decision, instead of jumping on the first knee jerk decision that was made in haste. Either way, at the most, you would have lost only one year, but the upside is significant in waiting before making any decision that would be very difficult to reverse. Also, in this mean time, if you can afford it and if it's readily available, I'd suggest that she does individual therapy and couple's therapy to sort out issue as they arise. Hopefully all this will help in making a decision for her and you in a conscious manner. 

I didn't mean to imply that the time spent with the family is a chore, I only meant that "she might perceive it as being a chore". The difference here is that one is a reality and the other one is a perception of reality and that perception may be inaccurate or ill formed. 

Hope this helps.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

BigDaddyNY said:


> @FS8 Is this what you think is going on with your wife? Do you feel she is bored with your marriage and wants that "newness"? What you've described sounds more like tired of nearly everything. Just plain not happy. Does she have depression?


That last part, I don't know. I went through it myself, albeit briefly and relatively minor, during the separation from my first wife prior to divorce. My ex as I mentioned was a poster child for severe depression. In fact, the marital counselor we saw (we started with a psychologist, and that turned into mostly individual sessions for my ex) suggested after three sessions that we cease everything and she actually seek inpatient therapy at a rehab clinic prior to doing anything as nobody in that state of mind could possibly comprehend relationship issues. So my expectation is probably slanted by having lived with a partner with severe depression and addiction.

But to answer the larger question, no, I honestly don't think that's part of it. I believe she's very attracted to me and not that attracted to other men. Our sex life has been limited by the children, and we rarely miss an opportunity when we have one. I mean the last time we had sex was a few days before she left and the children that we thought were playing downstairs came to pound on the door within minutes. I don't really think she's searching for that new feeling or anything. Again, to the extent that she's been able to verbalize this, that's not the issue. I know that depression is often manifested in feeling numb, or lost, or just generally being unhappy, so it's a definite possibility.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Asterix said:


> Thank you for taking the time and clearing up my misconception regarding the situation that you are in. The more I know and if I may be a little presumptuous, I'd say that the more we know, the better we can help you with your situation. So, having all this additional information about your situation certainly helps.
> 
> I'm glad to hear that when you proposed that she moves back to her mom's place, it seem to have brought her out of the fog that she was in. Hopefully that'll get her thinking of what would really happen to her and the family, should she chose to separate.
> 
> ...


Where we are now is that she's apologized profusely, wishes she hadn't said anything, doesn't want to leave or anything, and on and on. It was more like thinking out loud, so I don't think it was intended that way. She's returning on Monday and we need to talk in person, obviously, as I don't like even voice calls for issues of importance like this. My plan is to return her ring (the one I wear) with an understanding that that represents her marriage vows to me, which are in question for whatever reason. I don't intend to let this go as nothing, but rather I need her to fully recommit. I'm not under any illusions that this is the end of said issues, though I can certainly hope.

That said, there IS something to be worked out, and as far as I can tell (I've admittedly not been in the most talkative or supportive mood when we're on the phone as I've got a fresh wound) it is something personal to her. Maybe it is mild depression, maybe it's a realization that we're suddenly married with kids, or just the way life happens. I don't know.


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## Asterix (May 16, 2021)

One thing I'd like to say is that I feel for you because of the predicament that you are in and I sincerely hope that you both come to an agreement that works well for the both of you.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

FS8 said:


> Where we are now is that she's apologized profusely, wishes she hadn't said anything, doesn't want to leave or anything, and on and on. It was more like thinking out loud, so I don't think it was intended that way. She's returning on Monday and we need to talk in person, obviously, as I don't like even voice calls for issues of importance like this. My plan is to return her ring (the one I wear) with an understanding that that represents her marriage vows to me, which are in question for whatever reason. I don't intend to let this go as nothing, but rather I need her to fully recommit. I'm not under any illusions that this is the end of said issues, though I can certainly hope.
> 
> That said, there IS something to be worked out, and as far as I can tell (I've admittedly not been in the most talkative or supportive mood when we're on the phone as I've got a fresh wound) it is something personal to her. Maybe it is mild depression, maybe it's a realization that we're suddenly married with kids, or just the way life happens. I don't know.


Well returning your ring to me would show your own lack of commitment. I feel like she's lost and wallowing. Your action seems petty. I understand you being upset. Ask yourself what is your goal? To show her you don't care either? To put her on uncertain footing so she doesn't feel safe sharing feelings with you about being lost? 

I'm sure you returning your ring will send her in panic mode and you'll get more apologies and she'll straighten up, at least for now. I don't think it will lead to her sharing what is going on in her head either. So my analysis is that won't help your long term relationship but will give you power in the short term.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Not everyone becomes bored with sex and I don't quite understand the idea that women's desire being lower causes them to become bored more quickly. I would have thought the opposite to be true. High level of desire drives more need for something new. Wouldn't their lower level of desire mean they aren't as interested in sex period? I only have one data point, but I'm not bored with it and all indications are my wife is not bored with it either. She seems quite eager, lol.


Definitely not everyone becomes bored with sex, and I avoided implying that’s the case, but the point is that many men and women do become bored — both high drive and low drive. Why that should be true I have no idea but it is and I’ve noticed it happening more with women than men (maybe because I’m a woman and I hear lots of stories from other women). It’s possible that OP’s wife is just bored in general with marriage and not necessarily because of sex — apparently she’s not sure what’s going on with her.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sorry if this has been asked and answered already but how old is she?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My theory still is that she wanted you to convince her — in whatever way is meaningful to her — to stay in the marriage and when you told her she could go to her mom’s at that point she woke up. Now she’s trying to do damage control because she doesn’t really want to end it. The question is what does she truly want and so far she’s not been able to explain. Maybe she doesn’t actually know. Just some vague discontent that she doesn’t understand.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

FS8 said:


> She's returning on Monday and we need to talk in person, obviously, as I don't like even voice calls for issues of importance like this. My plan is to return her ring (the one I wear) with an understanding that that represents her marriage vows to me, which are in question for whatever reason. I don't intend to let this go as nothing, but rather I need her to fully recommit. I'm not under any illusions that this is the end of said issues, though I can certainly hope.


That’s an interesting approach, I like it.
BUT
I highly recommend when you explain that and return your ring, ask for hers back as well (hopefully temporarIly).

It needs to be reciprocal and balanced or you will be creating (even subconsciously) an unfavorable commitment/ power imbalance.

If you are returning her marriage vows back to her for consideration / re-commitment, the same applies for you.
You don’t want to give her a unilateral symbolic pause to reconsider her vows while you just sit by like a sure thing waiting on her and hoping she chooses to re-commit.
And since this is a symbolic approach, she needs to understand symbolically that you will not simply be waiting around indefinitely for her to figure herself out.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> Although, at almost 70


I can accept that there is a very deep generational divide regarding marriage. People born from mid 1960s evidently have a totally different viewpoint about it. The whole "till death" and "forsaking all others" is obsolete. This thread just illustrates some of that divide. A spouse just decides they don't want to be married anymore, so expresses that in words. Damage done. OP can never unhear the words, and is planning to hand his wedding ring back for her to decide yes or no.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Rus47 said:


> I can accept that there is a very deep generational divide regarding marriage. People born from mid 1960s evidently have a totally different viewpoint about it. The whole "till death" and "forsaking all others" is obsolete. This thread just illustrates some of that divide. A spouse just decides they don't want to be married anymore, so expresses that in words. Damage done. OP can never unhear the words, and is planning to hand his wedding ring back for her to decide yes or no.


There may be something to that, but I don’t think it started in the 60s. 
I was born in the 70s (as was my wife and many in my / our circle) and take the traditional concept / expectations of marriage pretty seriously.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

She's 36 and I'm 40. We're definitely from the "nothing is permanent, not even a tattoo" generation, though we had talked about marriage being permanent and taking that more seriously than the rest of our peers. I have no idea how much that matters, as even when I was a kid the divorce rate was quite high.

Regarding the ring, one of the things she said to me in the midst of the apologies was that she wanted to start over. While I'm 99% sure she meant the discussion and not her life, that stuck with me and I thought it would make sense to symbolically "start over." As I said above, the ring I wear represents her vows to me. I will make my vows again and we can exchange rings again. I don't care if this is in the kitchen or whatever. I know it's symbolic, but I think that would mean a lot because we'd both be saying that we want to do this and we are committed. I certainly don't want it to be any sort of power play, and I don't think it would be. I think it's clear that I WANT her to be committed and give it back to me with the exact same intent that was there the first time.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

Not in love a six years in. Some of what you say makes me think you should investigate what she is doing a little more (asking her if she is cheating was the wrong move).

Statements like subdued emotional state, feeling down, gaining weight, not feeling like herself, wondering if something is wrong with her... it is possible she could have low thyroid hormone... check TSH level. It is common.

I think she is either thinking of someone else as Plan A or she has a legit health issue.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

FS8 said:


> She's 36 and I'm 40. We're definitely from the "nothing is permanent, not even a tattoo" generation, though we had talked about marriage being permanent and taking that more seriously than the rest of our peers. I have no idea how much that matters, as even when I was a kid the divorce rate was quite high.
> 
> Regarding the ring, one of the things she said to me in the midst of the apologies was that she wanted to start over. While I'm 99% sure she meant the discussion and not her life, that stuck with me and I thought it would make sense to symbolically "start over." As I said above, the ring I wear represents her vows to me. I will make my vows again and we can exchange rings again. I don't care if this is in the kitchen or whatever. I know it's symbolic, but I think that would mean a lot because we'd both be saying that we want to do this and we are committed. I certainly don't want it to be any sort of power play, and I don't think it would be. I think it's clear that I WANT her to be committed and give it back to me with the exact same intent that was there the first time.


I think this is a good approach, but I think you should consider the advice to have her give you hers too. Make it a two way commitment and restart.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FS8 said:


> She's 36 and I'm 40. *We're definitely from the "nothing is permanent,* not even a tattoo" generation, though we had talked about marriage being permanent and taking that more seriously than the rest of our peers. I have no idea how much that matters, as even when I was a kid the divorce rate was quite high.
> 
> Regarding the ring, one of the things she said to me in the midst of the apologies was that she wanted to start over. While I*'m 99% sure she meant the discussion and not her life, that stuck with me and I thought it would make sense to symbolically "start over."* As I said above, the ring I wear represents her vows to me. I will make my vows again and we can exchange rings again. I don't care if this is in the kitchen or whatever. I know it's symbolic, but I think that would mean a lot because we'd both be saying that we want to do this and we are committed. I certainly don't want it to be any sort of power play, and I don't think it would be. *I think it's clear that I WANT her to be committed and give it back to me with the exact same intent that was there the first time.*


So maybe neither of you were really "cutout" for marriage. Maybe somehow you both thought it was "the thing to do" so did. Personal observation is that marriage is viewed by most of society as a quaint "old school" custom that is obsolete in our brave new world. No reason to try to keep pounding square peg into a round hole. At your ages, you both have a lifetime ahead of you, together or not. Since this isn't your first rodeo, you at least know the drill. The custody thing would be the only added complication, but it isn't a big one. It is good that she at least SAYS she wants to remain in her children's lives.

Personally think the ring symbol and your reasoning is good. I believe someone else told you it was a bad idea. So flip a coin I guess. IMO this will allow both of you to decide if you even want to continue together, and provides her the opportunity to stay or leave NSA. Her making a tangible commitment ought to cancel the hurt of her words and allow you both to "start over".


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

@FS8

Have you heard of the 7-year itch? It's a real thing. You two have been married almost 7 years. 

The basic idea behind the "seven-year itch" is that romantic partners experience turbulence and a potential point-of-reckoning around seven years together. Viewed as a critical juncture, the seven-year itch is defined as a time when couples re-evaluate.

In marriage, love ebbs and flows. Sometimes you feel it and sometimes not. IMO, it's good that your wife told you how she's feeling because that means that she trusts you and is leaning on you. One of the big problems in marriage these days is that the first time a couple goes through something like this they panic and divorce. You can work through this if the two of you do it together.

I have a question. How much time every week to you and your wife spend together, just the two of you without children, etc doing things together that you both enjoy? What kinds of things do you two do together?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well returning your ring to me would show your own lack of commitment. I feel like she's lost and wallowing. Your action seems petty. I understand you being upset. Ask yourself what is your goal? To show her you don't care either? To put her on uncertain footing so she doesn't feel safe sharing feelings with you about being lost?
> 
> I'm sure you returning your ring will send her in panic mode and you'll get more apologies and she'll straighten up, at least for now. I don't think it will lead to her sharing what is going on in her head either. So my analysis is that won't help your long term relationship but will give you power in the short term.


If you want continued transparency from her, which is fundamental for healthy relationships, it would behoove you to take notice of this post, FS8. 

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

farsidejunky said:


> If you want continued transparency from her, which is fundamental for healthy relationships, it would behoove you to take notice of this post, FS8.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


I did notice. I don't much agree with the sentiment as I feel it is based on a rather obvious misunderstanding of the situation.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

FS8 said:


> I did notice. I don't much agree with the sentiment as I feel it is based on a rather obvious misunderstanding of the situation.


Set aside (for a moment) the judgement in her post. What else is she trying to communicate to you? If all you hear is judgement, you are ignoring the true message.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Set aside (for a moment) the judgement in her post. What else is she trying to communicate to you? If all you hear is judgement, you are ignoring the true message.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


Well I guess typing isn’t the same as life. I wasn’t trying to judge. I’m pointing out human emotions and reactions which are normal but not conducive to deepening a relationship.

but hey I’m sure I don’t know anything since I’m in an extremely happy 29 year marriage. And OP obviouslyknows what’s going on in his wife’s mind which is why he’s here for help…. Now see that was judgement.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Anastasia6 said:


> Well I guess typing isn’t the same as life. I wasn’t trying to judge. I’m pointing out human emotions and reactions which are normal but not conducive to deepening a relationship.
> 
> but hey I’m sure I don’t know anything since I’m in an extremely happy 29 year marriage. And OP obviouslyknows what’s going on in his wife’s mind which is why he’s here for help…. Now see that was judgement.


Easy, Ana. Clearly we are suffering from the same problem in that our intention was not to sound judgmental, but actually came off as the opposite.

What you were telling him is important. What I'm trying to get him to do is hear it.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> @FS8
> 
> Have you heard of the 7-year itch? It's a real thing. You two have been married almost 7 years.
> 
> ...


You are almost there, Elegirl....

Almost, but ignoring those planetary squares that come visiting at the 6 to 9 year mark.
No, not for all, but for those that had adverse aspects on one's marriage day, possibly at birth.

Plus, you yet have to believe in me, that Leprechaun, I be. 


_King Brian- _a marriage made in heaven has no guarantee of longevity.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

FS8 said:


> She did say that she felt like she loved me but wasn't in love, which we all know is one of the oldest lines in the book and often a cover for everything else. She said she was questioning why people got married, extending that to "maybe I shouldn't be married."


The I love you but I am not in love with you statement, combining with the “maybe I shouldn’t be married” statement is a very big deal. If she she does not have someone else at least in mind, she is vulnerable to there being a someone else. Trying to explain it away does not change that, it only makes you feel better.

I am guessing that there may be someone else, or more than one someone else that makes her feel good, but because it has not gone full physical, she does not consider it cheating. The beginning of emotional affairs (“EA”) are like that.

How does she respond to your non-sexual physical intimacy? Does she seek it out, or is she indifferent?


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

TRy said:


> The I love you but I am not in love with you statement, combining with the “maybe I shouldn’t be married” statement is a very big deal. If she she does not have someone else at least in mind, she is vulnerable to there being a someone else. Trying to explain it away does not change that, it only makes you feel better.
> 
> I am guessing that there may be someone else, or more than one someone else that makes her feel good, but because it has not gone full physical, she does not consider it cheating. The beginning of emotional affairs (“EA”) are like that.
> 
> How does she respond to your non-sexual physical intimacy? Does she seek it out, or is she indifferent?


I don't know on the first point, as I have mentioned many times. I know what the signs are saying, I know what she's saying, and I know what I am thinking. I have not ruled anything out. I would be foolish to do so.

Regarding the second point, she does seek it out. She responds very positively when I seek it out as well, especially because that's not something I do nearly as much as she does (I am not needy by any stretch of the imagination).


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> @FS8
> 
> Have you heard of the 7-year itch? It's a real thing. You two have been married almost 7 years.
> 
> ...


I have heard of it, but I never thought it was much more than an urban legend (perhaps not the right term) or at least overstated. Maybe it is, but not to me.

It would be optimistic to assume that she is sharing something important with me because she trusts me as her partner. She did say she hasn't talked to anybody about it, which if true would lend validity to that theory. I think it's basically like dropping a nuke to tell me that over the phone at the start of a nine-day multi-country work trip. She understands that. Now, anyway. But in any case I'm not panicking - if it's not clear from this thread, I think this marriage is very good and very much worth saving. Her opinion (transient or not) was questioning marriage at all without specifically complaining about ours (other than the "not feeling in love" comment, not to minimize that).

We have no real reliable babysitter other than her parents, who are close by and willing a good amount of the time. We don't do many weeknight babysitter-type things, and it's usually them staying at Grammy's over a weekend or something like that. We do a lot - boat trips in the summer, short ski trips in the winter, breweries, wineries, hiking, live music, plenty of things. We have a lot of common interests and we do share them every chance we get. We have also through the course of marriage recognized when we're getting into a lull and do our best to schedule a weekend alone to reconnect, and we have done that many times. Other than that, our only real opportunity with young children is during weekend naptime and after they go to bed. We used to watch movies or just talk outside, and we haven't done that as much recently because she's spent more and more time working at night. It's something that needs to be fixed, which she knows, and has raised this to her management. Obviously she and I need to discuss that in greater detail when she returns, along with other things.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

FS8 said:


> Regarding the ring, one of the things she said to me in the midst of the apologies was that she wanted to start over. While I'm 99% sure she meant the discussion and not her life, that stuck with me and I thought it would make sense to symbolically "start over."


The I love you but I’m not in love with you is classic sign of infidelity. Detaching from you and even the kids, is a glaring telltale of adultery The starting over comment rings of a desire to attempt to restore after an affair. It could already be over but the damage is done. She’s emotionally detached from you and doesn’t know how to turn on the love again and fears that you both need a restart because of what she’s done. We see MANY threads where the WW thinks that the marriage is over and can’t see a way back, so they resign themselves to their marriage’s demise.

It was a bad move to ask her over the phone if she was having an affair. All you did was cause her to be on heightened alert. You need to dig into her phone and social media. Like I said above, there’s a chance the affair may be over but I suspect that with your wife’s increasing detachment, including even from the kids, it points to it still going on. Talking to you and the kids is a reminder of what she’s doing. She doesn’t want to be the bad guy.

Btw, has she been picking fights with you over petty things? That’s a common tactic to avoid intimacy. Some WWs are able to continue having sex with their husband during an affair and some even become very insatiable but the norm is for the husband to get cut off because she’s detached and feels like she’s cheating on her man.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

FS8 said:


> Regarding the second point, she does seek it out. She responds very positively when I seek it out as well, especially because that's not something I do nearly as much as she does (I am not needy by any stretch of the imagination).


Are you saying that she does most of the sexual initiating? I’ve learned on TAM that women usually don’t like to have to be the one that initiates most of the time. It makes them feel that you’re not really into her. That comment about not being needy is troubling. Taking the initiative with your sex life is not being needy. If some dude is chatting up your wife, he is going to make her feel desired. Feeling desired by a new guy that she’s attracted to is way more exciting than having a husband who’s only occasionally initiating.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

jsmart said:


> Are you saying that she does most of the sexual initiating? I’ve learned on TAM that women usually don’t like to have to be the one that initiates most of the time. It makes them feel that you’re not really into her. That comment about not being needy is troubling. Taking the initiative with your sex life is not being needy. If some dude is chatting up your wife, he is going to make her feel desired. Feeling desired by a new guy that she’s attracted to is way more exciting than having a husband who’s only occasionally initiating.


No, that was in reference to non-sexual physical contact, which I took to mean hugging, sitting together, and things like that. We both have a healthy sexual appetite, all things considered.

As to your previous post, no, she has not been picking fights over petty things or even acting all that different. She has been working more, but that's not particularly new.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Are the emotionally distant behavior changes only when she’s traveling? If so, how much traveling does she do? It’s not normal for a mother of young children to be so emotionally absent from even young kids. I know my wife would never have wanted to travel on a regular basis when we had a 3 year old at home. Is your wife one of those “lean in” corporate career comes first types? 

Do you think, as some female posters hypothesized, that your wife gets more satisfaction from her career and prefers the autonomy that it provides over the drudgery of being a wife and mother? Answering to a manager is preferred to some over the indignity having to meet the needs of a husband or children. I can’t see myself with such a woman but some are into the whole power couple thing.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Oops, duplicate post


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

jsmart said:


> Are the emotionally distant behavior changes only when she’s traveling? If so, how much traveling does she do? It’s not normal for a mother of young children to be so emotionally absent from even young kids. I know my wife would never have wanted to travel on a regular basis when we had a 3 year old at home. Is your wife one of those “lean in” corporate career comes first types?
> 
> Do you think, as some female posters hypothesized, that your wife gets more satisfaction from her career and prefers the autonomy that it provides over the drudgery of being a wife and mother? Answering to a manager is preferred to some over the indignity having to meet the needs of a husband or children. I can’t see myself with such a woman but some are into the whole power couple thing.


I'm not sure where people are getting that she's emotionally distant from the kids. She certainly isn't when she's home. I just found it odd that this trip, in having very short communication with me she is by definition having very short communication with the children. I read through again a little bit and didn't see where I said or implied that.

She travels about once a month on average. Since her most recent promotion, that is less to client sites and more to the corporate office (short flight). She does not need to go, but this is the first time in her career she's actually getting recognition and advancing and she is excited about it. That is at least partly why she's putting in the time and seems to never say no to work. I don't think she's a career comes first type of person at all, but it does seem that way recently. The second paragraph sounds pretty on point, at least to some degree. That's something to think about.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

So she got hone yesterday how did this ring give back go?


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Anastasia6 said:


> So she got hone yesterday how did this ring give back go?


She won't be home until tomorrow. She along with half of the people in Amsterdam missed her flight yesterday thanks to security taking over six hours.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

I thought I'd follow up here. She got home Wednesday morning. Having had time to cool down (and also having talked while she was traveling) I did not return the ring, as I felt at that point it was more about anger than progress. We talked a bit, and I got a lot of tearful apologies and a promise to work on things. If we are to reconcile, she needs to want to be here and be fully committed, and she is aware of that. She says that she is but it will take time. From what she's been able to elaborate she is not all that different in frame of mind from @*Desiderata *here (I'm not sure how to link an individual post or tag somebody). She has at least started to reach out to people (her friends) and talk about things a bit, and most (if not all) of them assure her that it is a normal feeling that people work through.

I am still struggling with trust. She has offered many times that she is not, has not, and is not on the precipice of being unfaithful, and has offered me her phone and her computer. I am not only in IT. but specifically cybersecurity and forensics, so there wouldn't be much of a possibility of hiding things from me. She is aware enough to know how her actions are or were perceived, and that's been gone over in this thread many times. I don't think it's all that likely, but it's by definition an emotional and not rational feeling that will take time to let go.

She has taken the initiative to schedule time with a therapist, so it was more than just a passing thought even back at the time. She discovered in talking to her friends that a lot of people see them on a regular basis and certainly have more in the past two years. So I think that's a positive step and shows at least some commitment to recovery. For what it's worth I feel like we've been making progress in the past few days, both with me being more supportive (which is hard, feeling as hurt as I was) and her being more present. The cynic in me says that's easy to fake for a short period of time, but nothing about this is easy, so I'm not surprised.

Fun fact, the government of the Netherlands has suggested people not fly at all and KLM has stopped selling tickets in certain cases because of how much of a train wreck that airport (Europe's third busiest) is.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I would back way off on the accusations, you have no definitive proof of anything, except from the satisfaction she is getting from her burgeoning career.

Which, is normal.

Be very low key and continue to snoop. Mouth shut, ears and eyes open.

I hope nothing errant is found.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

So...

Here we are. one month later. Things are on the verge of failure if they have not already reached that point. 

She did not end up seeing a therapist. Yet, anyway. She told me she had contacted one and scheduled one, but apparently she never sent her insurance information and let it the idea slowly slip away. I think in the past month I have made a conscious effort to be more attentive, checking in on her emotionally, and showing more physical touch (which is not my primary love language, though one of hers). For whatever reason, though, in the past week or so she'd been sleeping upstairs. There were excuses, mostly believable, but in the aggregate they added up to excuses. I can't sleep with the dog in the bed - she's noisy, hot, and takes up too much space - and I do not do well without sleep. Is that a fault of mine? Maybe, to her. But she wants to sleep with the dog because she's old and likely nearing the end of her life. So I let that slide. Or she wasn't feeling particularly well and expected to toss and turn.

This past Saturday we were scheduled to go on vacation. Not too far, just a short drive to the bay. Our friends were supposed to join us yesterday for the last few days, as our kids are friends and we're family friends as well. After the first night, she again found a reason to sleep in a different bed. When the kids would nap in the afternoon, she had to go to the grocery store. When the kids went to bed at night, there wasn't much time before she was tired and wanted to go to bed. So Tuesday morning I went to cuddle with her in the bed she was sleeping in and mentioned that I'd noticed she had been spending a lot of time apart and seemingly avoiding me. Within a few hours, we were having our coffee and she asked (more than once) if I would be like my dad if were divorced, as my dad has never been cordial to my mother in over 20 years since they've divorced. I eventually started to pry as that was a pretty solid departure from previous sentiments, and things spiraled from there. She was almost happy when she said she didn't even want counseling (within minutes of saying she did) as she was already done. We ended up packing up and driving home.

In the (brutal) last two days, we've "talked" and a lot of things have come out. She said that she's been feeling this way for a year or two, but never really voiced anything and simply let it get to the point where she was more or less resolved to leave the marriage. She said that she'd essentially gotten restless and bored and wanted something else, even if that were being single, in essentially all of her previous relationships. She claimed that we've grown apart, or that we've both changed, or there were a thousand little things that I've done, but to be honest it sounds to me like she's rationalizing her (continued) running away from relationships. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do the best I can and I think it's grossly unfair (and frankly emotionally immature) to bring up instances from several years ago in no way constituting any pattern of behavior as some sort of justification. I think it's extraordinarily unfair to stew in silence while you come to some sort of resolution (twisted though it may be) without ever telling your spouse. But that's the case, and we are we are. The reason I suspect it's "twisted" is because some of the things she said never happened. For example, last year on her stepdad's birthday we took our family over to their house for a party. We and our kids stayed there, as did her brother and his wife. I brewed beer and we had a great time. She mentioned that I had "ruined" his birthday by arguing about COVID vaccines and bringing everybody's mood down. The problem is that we did not discuss politics at all, and I went to bed at my normal time (10:30 or so). Some time after that, her brother's wife ended up arguing with her stepdad on the subject, and I only found out about it the next day. I don't know how to deal with that, or the other situations where she's clearly making things out to be much worse than they actually were. Again, it's my suspicion that this is simply rationalizing her intention to leave because she has a propensity to do this.

She doesn't know what she wants or believes, but on advice of other people is (supposedly) making appointments tomorrow for both herself and for us as a couple. I question the value of this, as painful as it may be, as there's no point to counseling if you've already checked out or made up your mind (unless it's the BS reason of "oh, I tried, I checked that box, it just didn't work").

I'm angry as much as sad at this point, and also wondering what I will have to do to make sure that my daughters do not turn out like their mother.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> What was it that brought on that statement? Was it just in the middle of a conversation out of the blue, an argument, what?
> 
> I wouldn't rule out infidelity yet either. Not much other than limerence is going to make a woman become distant to her husband and children. I also wouldn't get completely hung up on it, but it is worth doing a little digging, especially since she has opportunity with business travel.
> 
> Have you discussed the issues going on in your marriage?


Her behavior to me screams, "I've got someone else and they are priority over my husband and kids"


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I think it's over. Seldom if ever when women get to that point they get their Mojo back. You have been wasting your time, talking and more talking, round and round. Time to cut the cord dude.

You two are just postponing the inevitable. Don't say anything anymore, surprise her with the divorce papers. If that doesn't shock her back in, then you have your answer. Stop wasting your time/life on a dead fish.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Divinely Favored said:


> Her behavior to me screams, "I've got someone else and they are priority over my husband and kids"


for sure she has checked out and is interested in someone else.

atop begging her to stay. Serve her with divorce papers and let her figure out how to do life without blaming you!


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## gguillermo (7 mo ago)

FS8 said:


> That's not what I said. You're equating the post-honeymoon period with "some rut with a lack of sexual desire and lust." There is an ocean of difference between a mature relationship that remains attractive and fulfilling and a sexless marriage between roommates or co-parents. ALL relationships advance past that initial point. It isn't possible to avoid. What I'm saying is that it's not achievable to maintain that honeymoon period indefinitely.


And that’s because life changes. Kids and the finances of a growing family, and as you mentioned increasing career responsibilities. Those things are absent during the honeymoon phase. You can’t exercise your passion for each other all over the house at any hour of the day like it was with a childless life. Career advancement is securing the future in respect to building a life including plans for retirement. As energy is expended there it naturally takes away from the carefree lifestyle where there’s less barriers to maintain freshness in the relationship. We all need vacations from the routine to allow time to give our marital connection a recharge. We need to momentarily suspend the burden of obligations. We do it on a daily basis when we sleep. That idea needs to extend to all facets of our life.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

FS8 said:


> Our sex life has been good (probably better than average) by normal standards, based on age and life situation. *I did just call her and she said that she is not having affair or even talking to other men. I pushed this issue and I will believe her for now. That would have made the conversation very short.*
> 
> The remainder was disjointed and nonsensical. The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love. I asked her if she had thought about what any of that means, as in what her life would look like if she were "on her own." Her friends are all married with children, save for one who has a child but is in the process of divorce. There isn't a "single life" to go back to. You can't. But understanding that to me is as simple as understanding the sky is blue. You can't go back. Everybody knows that.
> 
> ...


Bud, if she is having an affair she wouldn’t tell you. 
Just as a precaution go online and review her phone bill. Text and call data.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

FS8 said:


> So...
> 
> Here we are. one month later. Things are on the verge of failure if they have not already reached that point.
> 
> ...


Sounds like blame shifting.

*Blame-shifting* is when a person does something wrong or inappropriate, and then dumps the blame on someone else to avoid taking responsibility for their own behavior.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FS8 said:


> She doesn't know what she wants or believes, but on advice of other people is (supposedly) making appointments tomorrow for both herself and for us as a couple. I question the value of this, as painful as it may be, as there's no point to counseling if you've already checked out or made up your mind (unless it's the BS reason of "oh, I tried, I checked that box, it just didn't work").


Indeed, just money wasted. Counseling isn't cheap, no point to it if your wife has already checked out.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

It sounds like she has completely checked out after a recent affair. The high that a wayward gets from sneaking around being bad is highly addictive and it is very hard for most WWs to settle for their formerly ok marriages. She is now so full of herself, that she can not tolerate even laying in the same bed with you, let alone have sex with you. You better get your ducks in a row because her mouth is barely able to contain her disdain for you while her actions are screaming that she wants out.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Sounds like she told you the truth a month ago, then did some backpedaling and now she’s back to the truth again. Women usually don’t change their minds once they are done and very often there’s someone else around to help them make that decision (although that someone else doesn’t always stick around). She may backpedal again so you need to decide what’s best for you and not let her continue to drive the bus or you’re going to end up in a ditch.


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## Asterix (May 16, 2021)

FS8 said:


> She claimed that we've grown apart, or that we've both changed, or there were a thousand little things that I've done, but to be honest it sounds to me like she's rationalizing her (continued) running away from relationships.


this is called as rewriting the history to fit her narrative.


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## So far so good (7 mo ago)

Talking to a cyber expert, You’ve heard of the "case of the stolen Szechuan Sauce" ?
You got a port scan going, and brute force on the Remote Desktop port but that’s not a hack, it’s just user traffic right…

For you piece of mind, and for your health, why not do a bit of investigating? She may not be having an affair but all signs point to it.

If it turns out to be an A, you’ll have to go through STD test (even if you D), and you’ll know that you have been gaslit all along. It will probably rule out any future R.

If there’s no A and turns out to be depression, how will this affect your child?


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

So far so good said:


> Talking to a cyber expert, You’ve heard of the "case of the stolen Szechuan Sauce" ?
> You got a port scan going, and brute force on the Remote Desktop port but that’s not a hack, it’s just user traffic right…
> 
> For you piece of mind, and for your health, why not do a bit of investigating? She may not be having an affair but all signs point to it.
> ...


That's why I said earlier that an affair would be both easier and harder. That would be a simple explanation, thus easier for me to understand. Unfortunately that's also the end of the relationship.

Depression would be pretty significant for the children. It's been a week since things changed dramatically and despite us trying to hold it together for the kids they are struggling whether they can elucidate why or not. My main concern is for the children. I will be fine, eventually, either way, and I can find a good woman who won't think it acceptable to "change her mind." But the kids will need more stability.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Buddy your wife is rewriting the history of your marriage to justify her own behaviour. 
She’s cheating, probably with a work colleague who’s more than likely her superior.


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## loblawbobblog (9 mo ago)

There's no way she's not cheating with a coworker. I've been through that and your wife is showing ALL the signs except for losing weight/working out. Sorry, man.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Well, we're pretty much at the end. She has repeatedly expressed her desire to leave and be "on her own." I'm an analytical person and I try to understand things, but I am struggling with her reasons. What she claims she will get (or thinks she will get) out of being a part-time single mom is not only no different than what she does here (spending time with her friends and family and doing things on her own), I have actively encouraged that as I have always recognized the necessity of doing those things during marriage and especially with children. In her candid moments she recognizes it's deliberate sabotage and that I don't deserve it, but that really doesn't matter.

I think the real wrecking ball was when she said yesterday that she's wanted to cheat - multiple times, in fact. So while I'm home with the kids and she's on travel, she'll have some guy hit on her and she said she was upset that she couldn't cheat. This blew my mind, as this is a fundamental failure of moral character and a complete misunderstanding of a committed relationship - of any kind, not just marriage. It's normal to enjoy attention from the opposite sex. That's probably good for anybody's self esteem. And while it may not be appropriate, I think it's also normal to fantasize about other people. What is in no way normal is actively wanting to be unfaithful and feeling "held back" or whatever by your marriage. That is not somebody that can be trusted. She swears that she didn't, and acted like she wants some credit for that. But I think that would be like me saying "man, I really wanted to punch your mom in the face, but I couldn't because we were at dinner" and then asking for credit because I didn't do it. Actively feeling such things is a major part of the problem.

It's just bizarre. I'm effectively dealing with the real-time death of a spouse because I have quite literally no idea who this person is. I've been talking with people who've gone through similar things and they mentioned they had to compartmentalize the "before" and "after" because they were different people. To some extent this happened with my first wife, though I recognized the point where she was just being deliberately hurtful.

Today's my birthday. Life happens and in the grand scheme of things a single day doesn't matter. It's just amazing that she managed to ruin my Father's Day vacation and my birthday in the span of a few weeks, but I guess ruining our family's entire life at present probably dwarfs that.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FS8 said:


> Well, we're pretty much at the end. She has repeatedly expressed her desire to leave and be "on her own." I'm an analytical person and I try to understand things, but I am struggling with her reasons. What she claims she will get (or thinks she will get) out of being a part-time single mom is not only no different than what she does here (spending time with her friends and family and doing things on her own), I have actively encouraged that as I have always recognized the necessity of doing those things during marriage and especially with children. In her candid moments she recognizes it's deliberate sabotage and that I don't deserve it, but that really doesn't matter.
> 
> I think the real wrecking ball was when she said yesterday that she's wanted to cheat - multiple times, in fact. So while I'm home with the kids and she's on travel, she'll have some guy hit on her and she said she was upset that she couldn't cheat. This blew my mind, as this is a fundamental failure of moral character and a complete misunderstanding of a committed relationship - of any kind, not just marriage. It's normal to enjoy attention from the opposite sex. That's probably good for anybody's self esteem. And while it may not be appropriate, I think it's also normal to fantasize about other people. What is in no way normal is actively wanting to be unfaithful and feeling "held back" or whatever by your marriage. That is not somebody that can be trusted. She swears that she didn't, and acted like she wants some credit for that. But I think that would be like me saying "man, I really wanted to punch your mom in the face, but I couldn't because we were at dinner" and then asking for credit because I didn't do it. Actively feeling such things is a major part of the problem.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry this is happening but maybe you need to frame it differently. 

She's doing what everyone who has been cheated on wanted their spouse to do instead, which is _end the marriage BEFORE they cheat_.

She wanted to cheat. She didn't. She recognizes that wanting to cheat means she should end the marriage. So she has taken that route. 

Be careful labeling it "abnormal" to want to cheat and be done with the marriage. It's not abnormal, it means she wants to be out of the marriage and she has told you so. 

It would be far more "abnormal" to want to cheat and want to be on your own yet STAY in a marriage. 

We want people who want to cheat and be on their own to end a marriage. That's the moral way of doing it. End it when you know you are done instead of cheating.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Livvie said:


> I'm sorry this is happening but maybe you need to frame it differently.
> 
> She's doing what everyone who has been cheated on wanted their spouse to do instead, which is _end the marriage BEFORE they cheat_.
> 
> ...


I disagree with the notion that that's the "moral" way of doing it; morality's got nothing to do with it. Excusing such behavior helps perpetuate it.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FS8 said:


> I disagree with the notion that that's the "moral" way of doing it; morality's got nothing to do with it. Excusing such behavior helps perpetuate it.


So no one can ever want out of a marriage?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Sorry your birthday sucks. This stuff is soul crushing. It never gets better until you rip the bandaids off. Divorce her with gusto. Yes, once they fall out of love, they truly are different people.
Believe me when I tell you that getting rid of her and being single is far, far, far bette than what you’re enduring now. 
Dating beautiful women, doing what you want when you want, and being mentally clear of a cheater is not a bad life at all.

She’s given you a blessing. You just can’t see it yet. Please resolve to see a lawyer abd file the paperwork and start building a future without her. Until you start doing that, you’re stuck in misery. Good luck.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> Sorry your birthday sucks. This stuff is soul crushing. It never gets better until you rip the bandaids off. Divorce her with gusto. Yes, once they fall out of love, they truly are different people.
> Believe me when I tell you that getting rid of her and being single is far, far, far bette than what you’re enduring now.
> Dating beautiful women, doing what you want when you want, and being mentally clear of a cheater is not a bad life at all.
> 
> She’s given you a blessing. You just can’t see it yet. Please resolve to see a lawyer abd file the paperwork and start building a future without her. Until you start doing that, you’re stuck in misery. Good luck.


I agree. She told you she's not in love with you, wants to be in her own, and that she's been struggling with this for awhile now. 

It's unfortunate and painful, but it's not abnormal or immoral. 

She wants to end the marriage. 

Work together to get it done and move on with your life as best you can.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Livvie said:


> So no one can ever want out of a marriage?


Perhaps you should revisit the traditional wedding vows. The most basic definition of "vow" is "a solemn promise or assertion, specifically one by which a person is bound to an act, service, or condition." Getting married - taking those vows - is intended to be permanent. For better or for worse. Of course one can "want out" of a marriage for any reason. That reason, though, reflects on that individual's moral and ethical character. Things like this - whether you do them or simply enable them by excusing them - completely trivialize the institution of marriage. That is, of course, your prerogative, but such people have no business being married.


Evinrude58 said:


> Sorry your birthday sucks. This stuff is soul crushing. It never gets better until you rip the bandaids off. Divorce her with gusto. Yes, once they fall out of love, they truly are different people.
> Believe me when I tell you that getting rid of her and being single is far, far, far bette than what you’re enduring now.
> Dating beautiful women, doing what you want when you want, and being mentally clear of a cheater is not a bad life at all.
> 
> She’s given you a blessing. You just can’t see it yet. Please resolve to see a lawyer abd file the paperwork and start building a future without her. Until you start doing that, you’re stuck in misery. Good luck.


I have already drawn up a draft agreement. I'm in the process of contacting my existing bank and seeing if I can assume the mortgage or, if not, refinance with minimal pain (though obviously not zero). I agree with what you said, difficult though that may be at this moment.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

FS8 said:


> Perhaps you should revisit the traditional wedding vows. The most basic definition of "vow" is "a solemn promise or assertion, specifically one by which a person is bound to an act, service, or condition." Getting married - taking those vows - is intended to be permanent. For better or for worse. Of course one can "want out" of a marriage for any reason. That reason, though, reflects on that individual's moral and ethical character. Things like this - whether you do them or simply enable them by excusing them - completely trivialize the institution of marriage. That is, of course, your prerogative, but such people have no business being married.
> 
> I have already drawn up a draft agreement. I'm in the process of contacting my existing bank and seeing if I can assume the mortgage or, if not, refinance with minimal pain (though obviously not zero). I agree with what you said, difficult though that may be at this moment.


I’ve been through it. It’s awful. I’m very very sorry. 
But I have been through it and come out the other side. There’s nothing good about a divorce, but I do want you to know that although the pain takes so long and decreases so slowly, it’s just awful. But if you let it go and move on, it will keep the pain tolerable and it will go away faster.

once you file, I strongly urge you to go no contact with your ex wife and resist the urge to get “closure” which never happens. Any contact with her thAt you have will just set you back and bring you pain. Any contact you are forced to have regarding kids. Keep it short and in point. Do not respond to anything she says or asks abut you and her. She will likely want to be “friends”. That’s for her benefit, not yours. I advise against it.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

FS8 said:


> I'm an analytical person and I try to understand things, but I am struggling with her reasons.




Dude, there's no need to understand her reasons because it doesn't matters. She wants out, show her the doors period. Your trying to understand her reasons is nothing but your defence mechanism trying to find a way to keep her.

Come on dude, have some self respect and dignity. Why haven't you given her divorce papers by now? This is not time to chicken out, being afraid, and showing her that you're a weak dude. This is no time to show indecisions and weakness so that she can see it and disrespect you more.

I can't understand how you can just sit there listening to her bullshits about wanting to **** other dudes? I mean what it would take for you to just get angry and tell her to **** off out your life.

You seem to want to keep yourself married at all costs, hence your bizarre statements about marriage vows and all that. That's not how the world works. If it did, no one would ever break their marriage vows. Those marriage vows are nothing but wishful thinking that we all want them forever, but as you can see by the amount of divorces around the world, that's not how it actually goes.

Regardless, Happy Birthday!!


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FS8 said:


> mentioned they had to compartmentalize the "before" and "after" because they were different people. To some extent this happened with my first wife, though I recognized the point where she was just being deliberately hurtful.


Just recognize that the “after” is who they always were, the “before” was a lie. You need to get some therapy to figure out how you picked two wives with the same bad character.


FS8 said:


> It's just amazing that she managed to ruin my Father's Day vacation and my birthday in the span of a few weeks


Sorry for the ruined holidays, you need to decouple from her. She can only ruin what you allow her power over. Hopefully she will move out to “do her thing”.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

FS8 said:


> Perhaps you should revisit the traditional wedding vows. The most basic definition of "vow" is "a solemn promise or assertion, specifically one by which a person is bound to an act, service, or condition." Getting married - taking those vows - is intended to be permanent. For better or for worse. Of course one can "want out" of a marriage for any reason. That reason, though, reflects on that individual's moral and ethical character. Things like this - whether you do them or simply enable them by excusing them - completely trivialize the institution of marriage. That is, of course, your prerogative, but such people have no business being married.
> 
> I have already drawn up a draft agreement. I'm in the process of contacting my existing bank and seeing if I can assume the mortgage or, if not, refinance with minimal pain (though obviously not zero). I agree with what you said, difficult though that may be at this moment.


We disagree. Strongly. And no, I don't need to revisit anything, I have all of my mental acuity and I know what a vow is. That was a condescending comment from you. 

It's 2022. I don’t believe a man or a woman should stay in a marriage they STRONGLY want to be out of. And no, it's not a moral or ethical failure to know and feel that you don't want to be married anymore because you don’t have those feelings for your spouse anymore and know you aren't able to be a loving, good, full partner to them anymore. Sometimes **** happens. It would, however, be a moral and ethical failure to stay and FAKE it. And provide your partner with a loveless, lackluster relationship 

Sounds like you are advocating for people who want out of a marriage to stay in the marriage anyway, thus subjecting their partner to a life of being with someone who strongly does not want to be with them. Sounds miserable for both parties.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I know this is difficult, all of us who’ve gone through divorce likely remember every moment, but it does eventually get better. Much better. But it takes a lot of time, and pain, to get there.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Rob_1 said:


> Dude, there's no need to understand her reasons because it doesn't matters. She wants out, show her the doors period. Your trying to understand her reasons is nothing but your defence mechanism trying to find a way to keep her.
> 
> Come on dude, have some self respect and dignity. Why haven't you given her divorce papers by now? This is not time to chicken out, being afraid, and showing her that you're a weak dude. This is no time to show indecisions and weakness so that she can see it and disrespect you more.
> 
> ...


This is not the first time something like this has been posted in this thread. In fact I think you've said the same thing previously. But I don't know where it's coming from. I do not and have not asked her to stay. I certainly don't beg or plead or anything like that. All I've said to her is that I in fact do not want her to stay if she doesn't want to. Understanding the reasons is almost surely solely for my own catharsis and I am aware that I may never get that.

I am not afraid, other than being uncertain about the future of my children as it will now be more difficult. For my own perspective, I'm mostly venting. I am aware my marriage is over and no, I don't want it to stay at all costs. In fact I don't want it to stay at any cost. I am not sure how you would want me to react to her saying that she wanted to cheat. All it did was solidify that this is not somebody I can trust.

I fundamentally believe that words have meaning, but we seem to be doing everything we can (and this is by no way limited to the words "marriage" or "vow") to ensure that they actually mean nothing. I can't change my own reality. I have no illusions about that.


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## RebuildingMe (Aug 18, 2019)

I’ve been through two divorces. Kids from both marriages. It sucks cowballs, it really does. I had a smoking gun, a murder weapon found in both marriages. It seems like you don’t, and that’s the part your struggling with. Have no doubt that if you continue in this marriage, you will have your smoking gun shortly and it won’t make anything any easier.

There are a new set of problems when you are a single parent, we’ve all experienced them. However they are not nearly the same at the anger, loneliness, depression and resentment you feel in a marriage such as you are in. Break free. You are young,your kids are young and you can recover, emotionally and financially.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Livvie said:


> We disagree. Strongly. And no, I don't need to revisit anything, I have all of my mental acuity and I know what a vow is. That was a condescending comment from you.
> 
> It's 2022. I don’t believe a man or a woman should stay in a marriage they STRONGLY want to be out of. And no, it's not a moral or ethical failure to know and feel that you don't want to be married anymore because you don’t have those feelings for your spouse anymore and know you aren't able to be a loving, good, full partner to them anymore. Sometimes **** happens. It would, however, be a moral and ethical failure to stay and FAKE it. And provide your partner with a loveless, lackluster relationship
> 
> Sounds like you are advocating for people who want out of a marriage to stay in the marriage anyway, thus subjecting their partner to a life of being with someone who strongly does not want to be with them. Sounds miserable for both parties.


There's a pretty broad spectrum of "wanting out." Nobody would be faulted these days for leaving an emotionally or physically abusive spouse. But I would argue that leaving for "good reasons" almost always means that the "bad" spouse broke their own vows - you aren't loving and cherishing your wife if you're beating her, for example.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, and I don't mean to be condescending. I simply believe that pursuant to your wedding vows in the majority of cases you should attempt to adhere to them. Staying in a marriage that is detrimental to one's mental health doesn't benefit anybody. I just believe that leaving should otherwise be the last resort in such a case, not the first.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

OP, I guess that I either did not understand well what you said, or you haven't said until now what your stance is in your situation.

Nonetheless, the moment your partner tells you that they want to **** other people that's the moment you immediately tell her/him to get out of your life, I mean, that is if you have self respect and dignity.

And no, you just don't try to stay in a relationship at all cost. You don't just try to adhere to said vows in order to save a relationship that already ran its course. That's pathetic and detrimental to yourself in the long run. When a marriage is over, is over, no need to try to stick a fork in it.

I do understand the children issue, but you just can't stay because of the children. A marriage where there's not love is a very dysfunctional marriage and children are being exposed to it, making them live and think that that's normal; which is just as bad or in a lot of cases worse to their emotional upbringing.

It's much better for children two happy homes than a miserable one, whether you'd acept it or not.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

I just read all 7 pages of your thread. And my heart hurts for what you are going through. You went into this second marriage feeling more prepared, ready to see problems before they became monumental, ready to make this one work in a way the last one did not...and still, you were blindsided. So now you are reeling from the betrayal that you were in a relationship with someone who has admitted, that they knew years ago that they were not invested and they literally stole those years from you. They could have spoken up and not wasted your time. I am sure you are going back and trying to make sense of the 'alternate reality' that you have been living for the last couple of years. I understand that all too well.

All I can say that might be helpful is, it may not seem like it now, but your situation could have been so much worse than it already is. You are already reeling from this pain, but I can promise you, it would have been far worse if there had been more time that passed and she had someone else on the side. You have been spared the mind movies, visualizing what you were doing while she was with someone in a motel room. You have been spared having to go through bits of evidence to try to piece together the story of what your reality actually was. You have been given your future, instead of her stealing even more time from you. It doesn't feel like a gift right now at all. Its awful that she didn't honor her promise to you and to your children. But, for your sake, I am glad she didn't steal even more from you.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> it would have been far worse if there had been more time that passed and she had someone else on the side.


I'm not trying to pile on OP more than what he's already going through, but when you are in these type of situations, it behooves you to be as realistic as possible. And the possibility that his wife already been with someone are very strong. Her whole demeanor indicates that, regardless of what little evidence he might actually have. If you were to peruse through all the similar threads in TAM you will find that in 99% of them it is so. Of course, there's the occasional one where it didn't happened, but here right now for OP that 99% is weighing heavy. That's my opinion.


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## Inside_Looking_Out (Apr 8, 2012)

Rob_1 said:


> I'm not trying to pile on OP more than what he's already going through, but when you are in these type of situations, it behooves you to be as realistic as possible. And the possibility that his wife already been with someone are very strong. Her whole demeanor indicates that, regardless of what little evidence he might actually have. If you were to peruse through all the similar threads in TAM you will find that in 99% of them it is so. Of course, there's the occasional one where it didn't happened, but here right now for OP that 99% is weighing heavy. That's my opinion.


I understand what you are saying, and yes I realize, in most situations, that is exactly what happens. 

But, the OP feels he has done his diligence and feels that hasn't happened. I am not going to pile on even more despair by telling him a stranger on the internet doesn't believe his judgement just because it's happened to others (including myself). 

If he is one of the rare cases that was 'fortunate' enough be spared an affair on top of the impending divorce, I wanted to remind him, he is 'luckier' than he may realize. Although, I know logically, he even knows that already.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Yes, divorce is much harder when you have young children. That’s why I stayed far too long in my marriage. What I was very slow to learn is that you don’t do your children any favors when you stay in a dysfunctional marriage. They know. Your children will obviously have a period of adjustment, as all children of divorce do, but you will be there to help them get through it.


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## Rus47 (Apr 1, 2021)

FS8 said:


> *I fundamentally believe that words have meaning,* but we seem to be doing everything we can (and this is by no way limited to the words "marriage" or "vow") to ensure that they actually mean nothing. I can't change my own reality. I have no illusions about that.


Unfortunately, the world isn't how we wish it was. I doubt that more than a tiny fraction of people think anything about vows they make about anything. Most likely don't even pay any attention to what the words of the vow are. Your wife MAYBE meant whatever she vowed to do/be when she married you. But if she has slept since then, she doesn't remember what the vows were. 

I sometimes think that modern society would be better served with less drama by using a simple yearly contract with option for renewal rather than walking the aisle pretending it is 'til death do us part.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Inside_Looking_Out said:


> I just read all 7 pages of your thread. And my heart hurts for what you are going through. You went into this second marriage feeling more prepared, ready to see problems before they became monumental, ready to make this one work in a way the last one did not...and still, you were blindsided. So now you are reeling from the betrayal that you were in a relationship with someone who has admitted, that they knew years ago that they were not invested and they literally stole those years from you. They could have spoken up and not wasted your time. I am sure you are going back and trying to make sense of the 'alternate reality' that you have been living for the last couple of years. I understand that all too well.
> 
> All I can say that might be helpful is, it may not seem like it now, but your situation could have been so much worse than it already is. You are already reeling from this pain, but I can promise you, it would have been far worse if there had been more time that passed and she had someone else on the side. You have been spared the mind movies, visualizing what you were doing while she was with someone in a motel room. You have been spared having to go through bits of evidence to try to piece together the story of what your reality actually was. You have been given your future, instead of her stealing even more time from you. It doesn't feel like a gift right now at all. Its awful that she didn't honor her promise to you and to your children. But, for your sake, I am glad she didn't steal even more from you.


Thank you. This means a lot to me. And yes, as difficult as it is, I believe this is indeed for the best.


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

@FS8

I have gone through your thread and I am very sorry about your situation. You have my respect and sympathy.

Stay strong, bro.

Karma happens to people who mistreat other people and do not make informed choices.

_Where are ALL the good men? _Right? __

You are a good man - you take your marital wows seriously. This is admirable quality.

This might be early to say but *IF* you decide to marry [again] at some point in the future, reach out to me on TAM for advice. I will tell you what things you should observe.

Best wishes.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

FS8 said:


> Well, we're pretty much at the end. She has repeatedly expressed her desire to leave and be "on her own." I'm an analytical person and I try to understand things, but I am struggling with her reasons. What she claims she will get (or thinks she will get) out of being a part-time single mom is not only no different than what she does here (spending time with her friends and family and doing things on her own), I have actively encouraged that as I have always recognized the necessity of doing those things during marriage and especially with children. In her candid moments she recognizes it's deliberate sabotage and that I don't deserve it, but that really doesn't matter.
> 
> I think the real wrecking ball was when she said yesterday that she's wanted to cheat - multiple times, in fact. So while I'm home with the kids and she's on travel, she'll have some guy hit on her and she said she was upset that she couldn't cheat. This blew my mind, as this is a fundamental failure of moral character and a complete misunderstanding of a committed relationship - of any kind, not just marriage. It's normal to enjoy attention from the opposite sex. That's probably good for anybody's self esteem. And while it may not be appropriate, I think it's also normal to fantasize about other people. What is in no way normal is actively wanting to be unfaithful and feeling "held back" or whatever by your marriage. That is not somebody that can be trusted. She swears that she didn't, and acted like she wants some credit for that. But I think that would be like me saying "man, I really wanted to punch your mom in the face, but I couldn't because we were at dinner" and then asking for credit because I didn't do it. Actively feeling such things is a major part of the problem.
> 
> ...


You are trying to rationalize the irrational. That won’t get you a thing. Her actions tell you everything you need to know. Words are meaningless BS. Being a martyr for the kids is just an excuse to do nothing. 
Only you can make yourself a chump. Let her go and save yourself first. If not you’ll be no good for your kids or anyone else. 
If you learn nothing else. All cheaters lie a lot. Most in your situation want to believe so they don’t have to make a decision.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

She wants out because she found someone new and exciting. Did you ever go online and check your phone bill? It only takes 10-15 minutes. Perhaps you don’t want to know.
Living in limbo is a temporary comfort some.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

LeGenDary_Man said:


> @FS8
> 
> I have gone through your thread and I am very sorry about your situation. You have my respect and sympathy.
> 
> ...


Right now, I'm processing what was essentially a fraudulent marriage. It is a rather vicious back and forth between the reality I thought I had - happy marriage, picture-perfect life, happy kids, happy wife - and the reality that it apparently was, which was a person I ultimately did not know pretending to be something she wasn't. It hurts to say it, but my wife is not a good person for a variety of reasons. I imagine I'm about the 700 millionth person to say this, but it's hard to accept that you were happy - I would've said I had almost all I wanted out of life a few months ago - with a person that isn't fundamentally good. It is odd to try to feed the children breakfast with this woman standing next to me - the same woman who I thought was giving me loving touches, hugs, or dancing while we cooked breakfast for the kids. I miss what I thought I had, but it's ultimately no different than a dream if it isn't real. That doesn't mean my happiness wasn't real, but it was based on an illusion. I went out on my boat today with my friends and sure enough, her dad and stepmom were there. To my knowledge nobody has "condoned" what she's doing and it has been varying degrees of pushback. But ultimately, family is family, and they're stuck. They told me that regardless of what happens they aren't divorcing me, and we had a good time together. But it was odd being out on the water for the first time in eight years without her, with something feeling missing. But I'm at a point where nothing I knew can ever be considered real. It's a very bizarre feeling.

But at some point, I will get back on the horse. I believe humans, especially men, are built to work, protect, and provide. I am fulfilled by doing that. I don't think family is some antiquated notion. I, like the majority of humans, am driven to propagate the species, and I do what I can to do exactly that - build a family, build shelter, protect, provide. It's primitive, but I am fulfilled by being a useful man. And I know many women feel the same way. I just have to find one. It seems difficult right now. I'm 41 with two young children and will be divorced twice. What woman will believe that both my previous wives made mistakes? I could very easily do the whole "casual sex" thing as I look ten years younger than I am, I'm a good looking guy, and I'm in better shape than 98% of men, even those half my age. But I have no interest in that - I never have, and I wouldn't want a woman who places so little value on her own dignity either. I'm realistic and understand that many of my options will ultimately be divorced women, probably with children of their own. So yeah, I need all the advice I can get. Right now I fully expect that I will be looking for a person who has hopefully learned from their previous mistakes, but I also will be struggling with trust issues and despite essentially "interviewing" potential mates on why their marriage failed (looking for candor as much as anything) I will not know whether I can trust them. This is an issue I need to overcome.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

OK, we're nearing the end of this phase of the saga. I thought I'd provide an update.

We've been talking here and there, mostly for the sake of my own understanding and healing. My wife seems to think that it's always about her, and talking with her means that I want her back or hope she will change her mind. I have mentioned that there is a significant pattern of selfish behavior, and her wanting affirmation that "I will be OK" or "the kids will be OK" is probably in large part so she can assuage her own guilt over what she's doing. She had even thrown out that her "biological clock was ticking" and perhaps this relationship was longer (or even came about) because she saw me as a suitable mate for reproduction, but ultimately not companionship, because it seems that she isn't very good at that.

As has been mentioned, she has sabotaged every relationship she's ever had save one where the man cheated on her before she could sabotage herself. She cheated at some point in college on an extended relationship, and the answer to why was "I don't know, I guess I just wanted to." She mentioned yesterday that she only likes the beginning of relationships, and then a lot dawned on me. I assume it's part of the sabotage, just like her recognizing that the "newness" was fading and subsequently doing nothing about it. People who addicted to the honeymoon phase - the butterflies or whatever you want to call it - are ultimately no different than any other addict. I've seen addictive behavior before - in my first wife, for one, and perhaps the common thread between the two is an "addictive" personality. Most people would've (and have) said the two were nothing alike. I read through plenty of articles and commentary on such addictions and how destructive they are. This article in particular made a lot of sense and described her very well:

How to Break the Pattern of Love Addiction

Of note in there is that absent true introspection and evaluation of why you are the way you are or do what you do, nothing will ever change. It is entirely likely if not certain that many of her previous relationships did nothing wrong - they were simply not new any more. And because you can't go back in time or erase memories, that person (me included) no longer has any value as a relationship partner. This is fundamentally broken, but I can't really do anything about that. I'm just another casualty in the wake of her destruction.

While this is a terminal diagnosis absent pretty extensive therapy, it did help me realize that nothing I did made any real difference. She wanted to cheat because somebody made her feel pretty or interesting. She said (at this point, there's zero reason to lie) that she never did more than flirt with a co-worker, an overweight beta male who I know for a fact she is not attracted to. It's simply a matter of being "outside the lines" or new. I have a good memory and I can recall many of the times throughout the years where I told her she was most beautiful in the morning, that she looked too good to go out without supervision, that she would do well giving a presentation or meeting with a client. But at some point when I was no longer "new" my affirmation meant nothing. This is completely backwards - it should mean more when the person knows you entirely - when they've taken care of you sick, seen you sad, miserable, lonely, drunk, struggling with a newborn, looking wrecked after nearly dying in childbirth - says words of affirmation and means them. But instead she derives some benefit from people who DON'T know her and only want to get in her pants. There are well-worn adages that are so for a reason, like how people treat you when they don't want anything from you.

At this point the agreement is done and should be signed this week. I'm providing documentation to the bank to refinance in my name alone, and while I lose a great rate it isn't that bad. I'll be fine. I've even had a few days where I didn't break down hard. Today has been so far, so good. My main focus is encouraging her to continue her therapy, in large part so she can recover mentally and be an emotionally stable and fulfilled person and thus a better parent to my children. If she doesn't, she'll just continue to ruin relationships, not only setting a bad example for my children but also potentially putting them at risk. Not everybody takes kindly to that level of emotional manipulation and betrayal. But hopefully she can find a decent man and, for lack of a better description, grow up and start being an adult.


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## SongoftheSouth (Apr 22, 2014)

FS8 said:


> At this point the agreement is done and should be signed this week. I'm providing documentation to the bank to refinance in my name alone, and while I lose a great rate it isn't that bad. I'll


You have a separation and opting out agreement spelling out all the details of your divorce in 2 months including children issues? I wish my divorce moved this quickly. You are lucky. I get interest rates have gone up but refinance should be lower than traditional new mortgage. Why not simply have in the separation agreement you are solely responsible for the mortgage going forward assuming the agreement was for you to keep the house and the deed will be solely titled to you if it isn't already.


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## LeGenDary_Man (Sep 25, 2013)

FS8 said:


> Right now, I'm processing what was essentially a fraudulent marriage. It is a rather vicious back and forth between the reality I thought I had - happy marriage, picture-perfect life, happy kids, happy wife - and the reality that it apparently was, which was a person I ultimately did not know pretending to be something she wasn't. It hurts to say it, but my wife is not a good person for a variety of reasons. I imagine I'm about the 700 millionth person to say this, but it's hard to accept that you were happy - I would've said I had almost all I wanted out of life a few months ago - with a person that isn't fundamentally good. It is odd to try to feed the children breakfast with this woman standing next to me - the same woman who I thought was giving me loving touches, hugs, or dancing while we cooked breakfast for the kids. I miss what I thought I had, but it's ultimately no different than a dream if it isn't real. That doesn't mean my happiness wasn't real, but it was based on an illusion. I went out on my boat today with my friends and sure enough, her dad and stepmom were there. To my knowledge nobody has "condoned" what she's doing and it has been varying degrees of pushback. But ultimately, family is family, and they're stuck. They told me that regardless of what happens they aren't divorcing me, and we had a good time together. But it was odd being out on the water for the first time in eight years without her, with something feeling missing. But I'm at a point where nothing I knew can ever be considered real. It's a very bizarre feeling.
> 
> But at some point, I will get back on the horse. I believe humans, especially men, are built to work, protect, and provide. I am fulfilled by doing that. I don't think family is some antiquated notion. I, like the majority of humans, am driven to propagate the species, and I do what I can to do exactly that - build a family, build shelter, protect, provide. It's primitive, but I am fulfilled by being a useful man. And I know many women feel the same way. I just have to find one. It seems difficult right now. I'm 41 with two young children and will be divorced twice. What woman will believe that both my previous wives made mistakes? I could very easily do the whole "casual sex" thing as I look ten years younger than I am, I'm a good looking guy, and I'm in better shape than 98% of men, even those half my age. But I have no interest in that - I never have, and I wouldn't want a woman who places so little value on her own dignity either. I'm realistic and understand that many of my options will ultimately be divorced women, probably with children of their own. So yeah, I need all the advice I can get. Right now I fully expect that I will be looking for a person who has hopefully learned from their previous mistakes, but I also will be struggling with trust issues and despite essentially "interviewing" potential mates on why their marriage failed (looking for candor as much as anything) I will not know whether I can trust them. This is an issue I need to overcome.





FS8 said:


> OK, we're nearing the end of this phase of the saga. I thought I'd provide an update.
> 
> We've been talking here and there, mostly for the sake of my own understanding and healing. My wife seems to think that it's always about her, and talking with her means that I want her back or hope she will change her mind. I have mentioned that there is a significant pattern of selfish behavior, and her wanting affirmation that "I will be OK" or "the kids will be OK" is probably in large part so she can assuage her own guilt over what she's doing. She had even thrown out that her "biological clock was ticking" and perhaps this relationship was longer (or even came about) because she saw me as a suitable mate for reproduction, but ultimately not companionship, because it seems that she isn't very good at that.
> 
> ...


Thanks for these responses and updates.

I understand that this is time for you to recollect yourself and heal. You will.

_"My main focus is encouraging her to continue her therapy, in large part so she can recover mentally and be an emotionally stable and fulfilled person and thus a better parent to my children."_

Good decision on your part.

_"I'm realistic and understand that many of my options will ultimately be divorced women, probably with children of their own. So yeah, I need all the advice I can get. Right now I fully expect that I will be looking for a person who has hopefully learned from their previous mistakes, but I also will be struggling with trust issues and despite essentially "interviewing" potential mates on why their marriage failed (looking for candor as much as anything) I will not know whether I can trust them. This is an issue I need to overcome."_

I understand.

You should try to figure out *WHY* YOU end up with marriage to a woman who is wrong for you (not suitable for marriage herself). This have happened TWICE to you by now. This mistake should NOT be repeated - not good for you

Keep following tips in mind when you decide to marry a woman:

1. You should try to learn about her past. You should ask her if this is her 1st relationship or there were more. You should try to determine that she has the tendency to LEAVE when things get rough or she will try her best to FIX problems in a relationship. This is important consideration. If she is hesitant to talk about her past then this is RED FLAG.

2. You should evaluate her family members and social circle. Most are happily married or not? A woman learns much from her company. This is natural.

3. You should try to determine if she have any 'trauma' or 'condition' or 'history of therapy' or perfectly healthy.

4. You should seek feedback about her from her neighborhood (early on when you are just getting to know her). Friends and family can be biased in their views. Neighbors will be more honest.

In your defense, you can say that you saw good in people and gave them the benefit of doubt. You wanted to work on your marriage; they didn't. But you know better now. You want to be with someone who have integrity and does not QUIT in difficult situations. You cannot do this alone.

If you meet a woman who is OK with your probing, does not have history of infidelity, and her social circle is positive, then she is a keeper.

A woman having insecurities is not for you.

- - - - -

Take your time to recollect yourself and heal.

When you feel that you are ready to date women, you may open a new thread in this forum and tag me in it.

Best wishes.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

Adding an update here for those who have been following my (rapid) saga.

In my quest to heal, I've been reading and researching. Yesterday, I came across an excerpt from a book on "betrayal trauma," and the words and phrases there - specifically from the perspective of men - are things I strongly identify with and in fact have used almost exactly in this thread. I was never under any illusion that I was unique in this regard, but apparently it's common to people who have spouses with an addiction. What the precise addiction is is not relevant. To the extent that I know, it's relationship or love addiction. Since I last posted, I've gotten an admission of additional emotional cheating. I came home from baseball and I went to say goodnight, at that point my intent being that since we need to coexist as parents we should try to achieve some sort of emotional peace and stability. She did not respond to a door knock, and I heard her talking to somebody. What little I heard sounded...I'm not sure how to describe it. She claims it was her friend (who is also getting divorced) but didn't offer to show me her call logs (as she has many times, though I've never snooped or felt the need to). Her evasiveness was very telling. Within a few minutes, she came down and said she'd been using WhatsApp to text with a guy she met on work travel about a year ago. But she'd just uninstalled it and would stop talking to him, and she swears she was actually just talking to her friend, and on and on. She claims it was never more than "getting to know each other" via text, not even phone calls. But again (and as I've said from the beginning) when you can't trust somebody because of their history of deception, I don't believe that. Hard to believe much of anything a liar says. I am not sure disclosure would matter much at this point. I fully expect there's more, either more with that person or more people. It's apparently common for disclosure to come at a trickle. This probably isn't relevant either. It's cheating, it's dishonest, and it's betrayal, no matter what form it ultimately took. 

I am working to stop letting her hurt me. That's an obvious trigger. She talks loudly on the phone and is either a complete sociopath or able to dissociate almost entirely. Neither of those are even remotely healthy and just feed the (again, very common) feelings of a betrayed spouse that you don't know who this person is or how they could be so cold. I've heard her talking more than once to coworkers about her situation and just generally having lighthearted conversations about it, as though she should "persevere" and find a rental. You know, because blowing up a family and leaving a husband and two children in the dust isn't a bad thing, just the difficulty of finding a rental. I have no idea what she has told her family, and while I don't do social media my mom does and has told me she's seen things that she finds tone deaf or in poor taste. This would include things like my mother in law posting about her son's new baby and how their family core is strong, the importance of family, and all of that. Or my wife's stepmother posting a picture of them at a bar doing shots. I don't begrudge somebody living their life, but I think you can do so while acknowledging the gravity of your situation. I am not capable of dissociating like that, but my wife is. Honestly, one of the things I had always found odd (and excused) was her ability to "pretend" things were OK. If I were having a particularly bad day (not often at all, just a few times) I would cancel plans and let people know I was having a bad day and probably wouldn't be great company. She was able to put on a mask and pretend everything was fine. That's consistent with bottling up and hiding her other emotions, so in retrospect it's not a surprise. But it fits with the way she's been acting now, so I shouldn't be surprised. Part of me is upset that not a single person on her side of the family has even reached out to me to see how I was doing. I would assume that at the very least the most watered-down version she could possibly give them - the "I don't want to be married any more" - would make most people wonder how I would be handling it. But I guess not.

That said, she has been rather sentimental at home, trying to cuddle with me in bed and hugging me often. She's said that she would go smell my pillow and cry. I don't believe the person I fell in love with and married is gone. Just buried right now. But I don't think there's any desire to change her behavior. She has more or less from the beginning just said that she's not cut out for this, can't be loyal, doesn't do relationships well, all of that stuff. But instead of trying to be a better person and fight her addiction and emotional issues, she's at best accepting them and at worst embracing them. That leaves me zero choice other than to heal on my own, which I have been working on. To be fair, she's never said it was me, and she's always said it was her. It's normal for the betrayed to wonder why they aren't or weren't good enough, but I know that I am and I was. I am a good husband and father, maybe even great. It is her. It is her addiction, her bad behavior, her impulse control, her dishonesty, her insecurity. I didn't deserve it. I didn't cause it.

The paperwork has been signed. The loan is in progress, and the appraiser was here yesterday to value the home. Within a month she'll be moved out of my house, and within six weeks I'll be the sole owner of this home. I will heal and move on and be the best dad I can be to my daughters. As I've always said, if you're on my team I'll be the most loyal supporter you've ever had. But once you're not, well, bye. You leave, you leave all of this behind. I don't wish you ill. I'm not vindictive. But if you reject me, then see yourself out.

Anyway, logistically and financially this could've ended up a lot worse for me. Emotionally, it's tough, but I'm on the (long) road to healing.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

You’re starting to see clearly, but not there yet.
“That said, she has been rather sentimental at home, trying to cuddle with me in bed and hugging me often. She's said that she would go smell my pillow and cry. I don't believe the person I fell in love with and married is gone. Just buried right now.”

When you’ve detached, you’ll see that it was the person that she showed you to start with in order to capture your heart—- that was the fake part of her. What you’re seeing now is the part she had buried.

All this smelling your pillow and crying bs, is a manipulation tactic to keep you feeling compassion for her so she can use you still.

I’m very sorry. You’ll get it soon. It’s the hardest thing to go through, and sadly, you’ll be changed as a result. You’ll see people differently.

I have about 6 people that truly care about me in my life. I TREASURE them. 
The rest come and go and I just have to accept it. Lots of people in life are just there for a season.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

People like her want it all and they feel entitled to have it. They almost never change. I know this is tough but, believe me, you’re better off without her.


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

FS8 said:


> Adding an update here for those who have been following my (rapid) saga.
> 
> In my quest to heal, I've been reading and researching. Yesterday, I came across an excerpt from a book on "betrayal trauma," and the words and phrases there - specifically from the perspective of men - are things I strongly identify with and in fact have used almost exactly in this thread. I was never under any illusion that I was unique in this regard, but apparently it's common to people who have spouses with an addiction. What the precise addiction is is not relevant. To the extent that I know, it's relationship or love addiction. Since I last posted, I've gotten an admission of additional emotional cheating. I came home from baseball and I went to say goodnight, at that point my intent being that since we need to coexist as parents we should try to achieve some sort of emotional peace and stability. She did not respond to a door knock, and I heard her talking to somebody. What little I heard sounded...I'm not sure how to describe it. She claims it was her friend (who is also getting divorced) but didn't offer to show me her call logs (as she has many times, though I've never snooped or felt the need to). Her evasiveness was very telling. Within a few minutes, she came down and said she'd been using WhatsApp to text with a guy she met on work travel about a year ago. But she'd just uninstalled it and would stop talking to him, and she swears she was actually just talking to her friend, and on and on. She claims it was never more than "getting to know each other" via text, not even phone calls. But again (and as I've said from the beginning) when you can't trust somebody because of their history of deception, I don't believe that. Hard to believe much of anything a liar says. I am not sure disclosure would matter much at this point. I fully expect there's more, either more with that person or more people. It's apparently common for disclosure to come at a trickle. This probably isn't relevant either. It's cheating, it's dishonest, and it's betrayal, no matter what form it ultimately took.
> 
> ...


Well, there it is. Finally. There was another guy. 

You may still not realize it, but she installed an app to communicate with him for a year. About you. And your marriage. And wanting to be free. 

Funny, after my Walk-Away Wife announced in a marriage counseling session that she did not want to be married (I was stunned) I found out she had talked to some guy in a very similar fashion. It definitely could have gone further but I never bothered to find out. Just filed and got the heck out. 

But yes, there has been another guy all along....


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Yep. How long has the other guy been there = When did your trouble start abd she started to seem distant?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Evinrude58 said:


> Yep. How long has the other guy been there = When did your trouble start abd she started to seem distant?


Interestingly enough, these dates typically coincide.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

uwe.blab said:


> Well, there it is. Finally. There was another guy.
> 
> You may still not realize it, but she installed an app to communicate with him for a year. About you. And your marriage. And wanting to be free.
> 
> ...


Of course I realize it. That's obvious. I don't know all the details. Obviously using that app indicates the intent to hide it from the start. So I'm not surprised about that. I've been lied to, and I'm sure I would still be lied to if I brought it up. But I don't really think there's any point in talking any longer. Not with her, anyway. She's not honest or faithful and has not expressed any desire to change or rebuild or reconcile, and I don't have the slightest idea if I would even be able to forgive her. Probably not, as I would not want to be looking over my shoulder knowing that there is absolutely no guarantee it wouldn't happen again.

As to when did she start talking to him, as far as I know it's been about a year. As to when did the "trouble" start, it was about two months ago that I first started the thread and she said what she said. Before that, I had been noticing little things (being distant) for about a month or so before that. And by that I mean it was more (in my gut) than I could chalk up to the stress and difficulties of having two young children. 

Keeping in mind I'm dealing with a woman who, to put it mildly, has deep difficulties with being honest, I have heard everything from "sometime after we had kids" to two years ago to a year ago. I believe that because of her issues (relationship addiction), she becomes "receptive" at some point in a relationship to wanting something new. I would imagine this guy came after that, but probably sped up the process. The timelines may or may not line up. I don't know. But it truly doesn't matter at this point. The entire point of understanding betrayal, to me at least, is that it isn't my fault. It wasn't my fault. It's her.


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## uwe.blab (May 2, 2019)

FS8 said:


> Of course I realize it. That's obvious. I don't know all the details. Obviously using that app indicates the intent to hide it from the start. So I'm not surprised about that. I've been lied to, and I'm sure I would still be lied to if I brought it up. But I don't really think there's any point in talking any longer. Not with her, anyway. She's not honest or faithful and has not expressed any desire to change or rebuild or reconcile, and I don't have the slightest idea if I would even be able to forgive her. Probably not, as I would not want to be looking over my shoulder knowing that there is absolutely no guarantee it wouldn't happen again.
> 
> As to when did she start talking to him, as far as I know it's been about a year. As to when did the "trouble" start, it was about two months ago that I first started the thread and she said what she said. Before that, I had been noticing little things (being distant) for about a month or so before that. And by that I mean it was more (in my gut) than I could chalk up to the stress and difficulties of having two young children.
> 
> Keeping in mind I'm dealing with a woman who, to put it mildly, has deep difficulties with being honest, I have heard everything from "sometime after we had kids" to two years ago to a year ago. I believe that because of her issues (relationship addiction), she becomes "receptive" at some point in a relationship to wanting something new. I would imagine this guy came after that, but probably sped up the process. The timelines may or may not line up. I don't know. But it truly doesn't matter at this point. The entire point of understanding betrayal, to me at least, is that it isn't my fault. It wasn't my fault. It's her.


My point is that you asked her multiple times if she was having an affair. Maybe not physical but this relationship -- however innocent she might characterize it -- is the actual impetus of the demise of your marriage.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

FS8 said:


> Of course I realize it. That's obvious. I don't know all the details. Obviously using that app indicates the intent to hide it from the start. So I'm not surprised about that. I've been lied to, and I'm sure I would still be lied to if I brought it up. But I don't really think there's any point in talking any longer. Not with her, anyway. She's not honest or faithful and has not expressed any desire to change or rebuild or reconcile, and I don't have the slightest idea if I would even be able to forgive her. Probably not, as I would not want to be looking over my shoulder knowing that there is absolutely no guarantee it wouldn't happen again.
> 
> As to when did she start talking to him, as far as I know it's been about a year. As to when did the "trouble" start, it was about two months ago that I first started the thread and she said what she said. Before that, I had been noticing little things (being distant) for about a month or so before that. And by that I mean it was more (in my gut) than I could chalk up to the stress and difficulties of having two young children.
> 
> Keeping in mind I'm dealing with a woman who, to put it mildly, has deep difficulties with being honest, I have heard everything from "sometime after we had kids" to two years ago to a year ago. I believe that because of her issues (relationship addiction), she becomes "receptive" at some point in a relationship to wanting something new. I would imagine this guy came after that, but probably sped up the process. The timelines may or may not line up. I don't know. But it truly doesn't matter at this point. The entire point of understanding betrayal, to me at least, is that it isn't my fault. It wasn't my fault. It's her.


Ok, you understand. Acceptance follows. Hopefully you're past that. 

So have you made her move out yet? And you filed for divorce? If not, you're the one now slowing down your journey to a single, happier you.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

uwe.blab said:


> My point is that you asked her multiple times if she was having an affair. Maybe not physical but this relationship -- however innocent she might characterize it -- is the actual impetus of the demise of your marriage.


I tend to agree. All of the dissembling about this or that or the other thing probably boils down to this relationship.


Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Ok, you understand. Acceptance follows. Hopefully you're past that.
> 
> So have you made her move out yet? And you filed for divorce? If not, you're the one now slowing down your journey to a single, happier you.


She is moving out within the month. I haven't kicked her out to either of her parents' houses or anything like that. We have young children and for their sake I am trying to make the transition as minimally painful as possible.

The earliest I can file (or the earliest a decree can be granted) is going to be January. There aren't any delays.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Just read through this thread, and while some of the specifics are different, when it comes to how this all unfolded...I could have written it myself as what I went through with my ex-wife. Almost identical. She'd been having an emotional affair with our kids teacher, that became physical right around the time I got the I love you, but am not in love with you speech. Then the marital history started getting rewritten. Took me a few months to start putting the pieces together, but once I did, that was that.

And ya know, right from the beginning when I started posting here about it, when my ex-wife first started with the Not sure I want to be married bit, I swore up and down there was no possibility of another man in the picture, even when the 2x4s were flying here telling me there was. Not necessarily that she was having a torrid serial sexcapade, but there was someone else who had turned her head.

In the end, the divorce went through rather quickly. She did try and fight the custody arrangements, and ironically, that came back to bite her in the ass as she demanded I have a psych evaluation, and the court ordered it, but ordered we both have one. Hers took a bit longer to complete than mine, but over the course of three months, she came away diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder...which pretty much explained everything and the entire history of our marriage.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> Just read through this thread, and while some of the specifics are different, when it comes to how this all unfolded...I could have written it myself as what I went through with my ex-wife. Almost identical. She'd been having an emotional affair with our kids teacher, that became physical right around the time I got the I love you, but am not in love with you speech. Then the marital history started getting rewritten. Took me a few months to start putting the pieces together, but once I did, that was that.
> 
> And ya know, right from the beginning when I started posting here about it, when my ex-wife first started with the Not sure I want to be married bit, I swore up and down there was no possibility of another man in the picture, even when the 2x4s were flying here telling me there was. Not necessarily that she was having a torrid serial sexcapade, but there was someone else who had turned her head.
> 
> In the end, the divorce went through rather quickly. She did try and fight the custody arrangements, and ironically, that came back to bite her in the ass as she demanded I have a psych evaluation, and the court ordered it, but ordered we both have one. Hers took a bit longer to complete than mine, but over the course of three months, she came away diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder...which pretty much explained everything and the entire history of our marriage.


You know, what's interesting is that people who know me and my story have suggested both NPD and BPD. I didn't immediately jump to something like that, but those that have experience with those personality disorders said so pretty much immediately. I wouldn't doubt it but I don't know for sure.

I just wonder why cheaters cheat, _especially_ emotionally. Physical is one thing. I think everybody gets the reason why. Raw attraction and physical pleasure is a powerful driver. But the emotional attachment makes no sense to me. Most people in relationships subconsciously have the sign up that says "not open for business." But some don't. And then they devote time and energy to nurturing a relationship that would obviously be better spent on the committed one they're in. Even if the relationship is lacking (believe me, mine wasn't, and I've gone from questioning to understanding the betrayal and knowing that I didn't do anything wrong), it would be more beneficial to work on the one you have. You can't do two things at once.

I didn't think there was another man because I automatically assumed physical and the logistics were not there for that. She works from home and hadn't been doing anything differently. But the emotional, all you really need is a few minutes alone. Texting can even be done while you're in bed next to your spouse. The reason I asked her so many times is that I thought I could eventually pry the truth out of her. Mostly because while I'm a scientist and not a big believer in instinct vice evidence, my gut kept telling me there was somebody else. I have no idea how much truth I've gotten. I do know that night I heard her talking I did not and do not believe it was her friend as what I heard (tone of voice) was not how you would talk to your friend, and while I can't remember what exactly it was she was explaining something said friend already knew. I think it might have been where they're going on vacation (my wife and kids), and that friend had been to that family vacation spot several times in her life. She knows where it is. But some boy (I'm not going to call somebody who messes with another man's wife a man), he doesn't know. She got on her knees, said hand to God, strike me down, that was Christina. I'm 99% sure it was him. It doesn't matter, but having somebody lie to my face just rubs me the wrong way.

In retrospect, my wife was incapable of telling a story without lying. I don't know that it ever happened. She could be recounting an already exciting story, and she'd fabricate details. She could be recounting something mundane, and she'd fabricate details. That always bothered me but I never bothered to connect it to chronic dishonesty. Though apparently I should have.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

FS8 said:


> You know, what's interesting is that people who know me and my story have suggested both NPD and BPD. I didn't immediately jump to something like that, but those that have experience with those personality disorders said so pretty much immediately. I wouldn't doubt it but I don't know for sure.
> 
> I just wonder why cheaters cheat, _especially_ emotionally. Physical is one thing. I think everybody gets the reason why. Raw attraction and physical pleasure is a powerful driver. But the emotional attachment makes no sense to me. Most people in relationships subconsciously have the sign up that says "not open for business." But some don't. And then they devote time and energy to nurturing a relationship that would obviously be better spent on the committed one they're in. Even if the relationship is lacking (believe me, mine wasn't, and I've gone from questioning to understanding the betrayal and knowing that I didn't do anything wrong), it would be more beneficial to work on the one you have. You can't do two things at once.
> 
> ...


Hind sight is 20/20. Don't beat yourself up too much. Just learn from it.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

FS8 said:


> She got on her knees, said hand to God, strike me down, that was Christina. I'm 99% sure it was him. It doesn't matter, but having somebody lie to my face just rubs me the wrong way.


You should have said -- OK, then let me have your phone so I can verify it. I BET she would NOT have given it to you.
Cheaters lie as you know.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FS8 said:


> Our sex life has been good (probably better than average) by normal standards, based on age and life situation. I did just call her and she said that she is not having affair or even talking to other men. I pushed this issue and I will believe her for now. That would have made the conversation very short.
> 
> The remainder was disjointed and nonsensical. The consistent thread (if there is one) is that she thinks she should be "alone" and perhaps shouldn't be married because she doesn't think she is in love. I asked her if she had thought about what any of that means, as in what her life would look like if she were "on her own." Her friends are all married with children, save for one who has a child but is in the process of divorce. There isn't a "single life" to go back to. You can't. But understanding that to me is as simple as understanding the sky is blue. You can't go back. Everybody knows that.
> 
> ...


I really like that you let her know she needs to figure herself out lest she regret that you've moved on.


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## FS8 (Jun 17, 2011)

jlg07 said:


> You should have said -- OK, then let me have your phone so I can verify it. I BET she would NOT have given it to you.
> Cheaters lie as you know.


She had always said "here, you can have my phone" when the subject came up. I never took it. But that night I asked and she refused. I even said I don't want to hold it - just show me the call log. She still refused. 

20 minutes later is when she swore it was her friend. She did show me the call log, and it had been empty for hours. That's also when she admitted to the relationship with the other guy, but said she had deleted her secret communication app. So yeah, evidence of absence in what she did show me, and no way to verify anything else. That was pretty obvious to me.


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