# I've reached the crossroads.



## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

I have reached the point that I am fed up with the excuses. I've been working on me, and still monitoring her, but am finding nothing. She showed me a blog on FB Sunday night about a wife that wrote a letter to her husband, and the husband responded back, if I find that again, I'll post it's contents. She has felt my distancing I guess and wanted me to know that she feels we need to do something. So, we had a talk, it was good, and then when we got into bed, we were cuddling and I started rubbing her back, then after a few minutes, she raises up and told me that she feels as though our conversation was void because I was wanting sex and that's the only reason I talked to her about things. I was offended and told her that it is possible for me to disagree with her and tell her how I feel, AND want to make love to her afterwards. As sad as it is, we agreed on sex once per week, but our last event was October 12th, and it was duty sex. I just said fine and rolled over because I didn't want to argue with her. But I started trying to make myself believe that I can be happy without her. But I wanted to write her a letter to tell her how I feel. Basically because I can't talk to her anymore without a large argument that follows on a work night that won't end until midnight. She still tells me that all I'm doing is telling her all the things that she is doing wrong. Although it's true my responses don't bring my true point home after she says stuff like that. I honestly am tired of fighting. I have written said letter and will post it up in a few. I don't know what it is, but I love her and hate her at the same time. I'm honestly torn right now. I know what I need to do, I'd just like to vent my frustrations I guess. I don't have many good friends that I can openly talk to whenever. I'm not a huge social person either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FLman (Nov 6, 2013)

The marriage has drifted apart, as many do, you have grown distant with resentment at both ends. People will say you need to communicate, be open etc...it does not work, what works is this, sounds basic and most will miss the boat on this!
In order for her to make love to you on regular basis and not out of guilt or need is for her to be in love with you, and the same for you but unfortunately we have hormones to deal with, and usually can separate the physical aspect of it! Falling back in love will take some time, it will feel a bit unnatural at first due to trust issues as her priorities and yours are different, so the key is to see what hers are and you explain what yours are (you have to be very descriptive about this and take the guess work out of it, you'll never understand what is important to her, there are books on this). She has or will send singles of what she wants, but they tend to be very subtle, so when she invites you to do something or walk with her do it! Spending time together and sharing whats important to her and the same to you will bring you closer more than you ever would imagine. Once you have built that trust and closeness, I will bet your intimacy time will be much more fulfilling, for her and yourself...Also kiss and hug her without the sexual advancements, cuddle with her, watch a movie with her, etc etc...don't make it to look like advancements.
All women want is love, and love is commitment, and commitment is sharing!
The other things you can do, is take some of her everyday stress off her hands, for example if you share the load of raising the kids, cleaning etc, she will greatly appreciate it and she will view you in a different light...that awkwardness between you too should life. Also women like a guy to lead on certain decisions, meaning they want a bit of authority, the reason most women will nag, is they want to see their partner work toward a better life, that does not mean material things, but again listen to the signals...If you have resentment toward her, is because she has pulled away, women will not always be direct about their happiness...I am currently in the same process and have taken actions, but first we both had agreed to work together, now our life is hugely improved, even in the bedroom, we still have a few issues but tides can be turned and us guys sometimes are blind to the obvious, its not as hard as you might think!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

McMuffin said:


> I have reached the point that I am fed up with the excuses. I've been working on me, and still monitoring her, but am finding nothing. She showed me a blog on FB Sunday night about a wife that wrote a letter to her husband, and the husband responded back, if I find that again, I'll post it's contents. She has felt my distancing I guess and wanted me to know that she feels we need to do something. So, we had a talk, it was good, and then when we got into bed, we were cuddling and I started rubbing her back, then after a few minutes, she raises up and told me that she feels as though our conversation was void because I was wanting sex and that's the only reason I talked to her about things. I was offended and told her that it is possible for me to disagree with her and tell her how I feel, AND want to make love to her afterwards. As sad as it is, we agreed on sex once per week, but our last event was October 12th, and it was duty sex. I just said fine and rolled over because I didn't want to argue with her. But I started trying to make myself believe that I can be happy without her. But I wanted to write her a letter to tell her how I feel. Basically because I can't talk to her anymore without a large argument that follows on a work night that won't end until midnight. She still tells me that all I'm doing is telling her all the things that she is doing wrong. Although it's true my responses don't bring my true point home after she says stuff like that. I honestly am tired of fighting. I have written said letter and will post it up in a few. I don't know what it is, but I love her and hate her at the same time. I'm honestly torn right now. I know what I need to do, I'd just like to vent my frustrations I guess. I don't have many good friends that I can openly talk to whenever. I'm not a huge social person either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



She has to realize that your main need and release is sex. Hers is talking, listening, cuddling, a nice back rub, etc. Those are her needs and not yours. She has to understand that. So after being a good hubby, you initiate for sex and she gets upset and says all you wanted was sex? Really?! Bit of a selfish woman there.....you didn't have to do that for her and make that effort, but you did. What did she do in return, not much and shut you down. You have to tell her, you need sex and that sex is the glue that holds marriages together. Sex for you is very important, and she has to know that. At the same time, ask her what her needs are. 

Get her to write a list and you give her a list and both start doing those things for each other, see if that helps.......

Sex should be spontaneous and out of love and desire for each other. Sex should never be scheduled and duty sex, 1x week on a certain day. That's not love, that's more of a chore.



- you had a talk
- both felt good
- cuddling for her
- back rub for her
- you want to feel closer to her, initiate sex and get shut down


She literally sounds like my wife.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

McM,
If your goal is more frequent sex, you need to do at minimum one of two things. 

1. Find a way to get her comfortable telling you how to make it good/better for her than it currently is. That may not happen because she just may not like it that much, even when you are doing it 'the way she likes best/dislikes least'. 
2. Get her to grasp that: if making you happy, doesn't make her happy, than she doesn't love you. It really is that simple. She may love 'what you do for HER', but that is not the same thing at all. That is the husband as servant model, not the husband as 'loved equal partner' model. 

Your letter needs to be very short. Not much longer than the two paragraphs above. The more you talk about 'feelings', the weaker she will perceive you, and the will amplify this 'servant' theme.

Note, in the talk you described, she atttempted to invalidate your need after explaining why you need to keep loving 'her'. That is the path to sure misery. 

As for execution, she is going to game you. By either trying to water down the weekly commitment using any excuse that lets her delay it, or by radiating indifference when she does have sex with you. 

Expect this and prepare yourself. 

If you get anything other than enthusiastic participation, calmly stop the proceedings and get out of bed. Don't let her talk about how she feels 'pressured'. Just say 'this isn't love and I am not interested in whatever it is'. 

And the next 'talk' she initiates can't be you listing her failures. It needs to be simpler. Just ask her a question or two. 
- When do you put MY needs first
- When you do that, do you feel happy or resentful? 

Does she have to get up as early as you do? 

If not, you need to learn to say: 'to be continued tomorrow, I need to get up at x time tomorrow morning and am going to sleep'. 

If she tries to continue, just say: if this is urgent, I will set the alarm a half hour early and we can both wake up and continue it then. 

I am guessing that she pokes at you emotionally when you do that. Just smile and say: One more word and I will wake you tomorrow morning and deprive you of sleep as you are attempting to do to me right now. 



McMuffin said:


> I have reached the point that I am fed up with the excuses. I've been working on me, and still monitoring her, but am finding nothing. She showed me a blog on FB Sunday night about a wife that wrote a letter to her husband, and the husband responded back, if I find that again, I'll post it's contents. She has felt my distancing I guess and wanted me to know that she feels we need to do something. So, we had a talk, it was good, and then when we got into bed, we were cuddling and I started rubbing her back, then after a few minutes, she raises up and told me that she feels as though our conversation was void because I was wanting sex and that's the only reason I talked to her about things. I was offended and told her that it is possible for me to disagree with her and tell her how I feel, AND want to make love to her afterwards. As sad as it is, we agreed on sex once per week, but our last event was October 12th, and it was duty sex. I just said fine and rolled over because I didn't want to argue with her. But I started trying to make myself believe that I can be happy without her. But I wanted to write her a letter to tell her how I feel. Basically because I can't talk to her anymore without a large argument that follows on a work night that won't end until midnight. She still tells me that all I'm doing is telling her all the things that she is doing wrong. Although it's true my responses don't bring my true point home after she says stuff like that. I honestly am tired of fighting. I have written said letter and will post it up in a few. I don't know what it is, but I love her and hate her at the same time. I'm honestly torn right now. I know what I need to do, I'd just like to vent my frustrations I guess. I don't have many good friends that I can openly talk to whenever. I'm not a huge social person either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrHappyHat (Oct 24, 2012)

MEM1163 has a lot of good points.

Your situation isn't about love and commitment, it's about power and control. As you are detaching from her and becoming more self-sufficient, she's feeling the loss of control and seeking to reel you back in.

I wouldn't bother writing her a letter. She wants your provisioning, you emotional support and occasional drama as entertainment. Right now you're providing all of that. She knows how to shut you down when it comes to sex. 

Go back to working on you.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Good lord I can't say y'all the sh!t that I want to say in two short paragraphs…
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

McMuffin said:


> Good lord I can't say y'all the sh!t that I want to say in two short paragraphs…
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is a reason for that. The more you say, the worse it is likely to come across. Some women don't like their men to really bring up conversations about feelings. Your wife appears to be one of them. So don't do it.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

McMuffin said:


> Good lord I can't say y'all the sh!t that I want to say in two short paragraphs…


"I need to feel _desired _in order to feel loved. I don't feel desired or loved in this relationship. Every time you reject sex, I feel you are rejecting ME and I feel less and less desired and loved. OUR MARRIAGE IS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE."

Honestly, if she doesn't get that, none of the other stuff the guys wrote in this thread is going to get her one step closer to "getting it" and wanting to change the current dynamics between you. The more you push for "sex" the more she will shut down because it sounds like all you care about is the sexual release, which is the opposite of what you want. And you don't want sex anyway - you want to feel desired because she WANTS you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
If you ARE going to address feelings, use Norajanes approach below. 

As for 'all the things you want to address', you are wasting your time with symptoms, and not 'root' causes. The root causes are simple: You have given her way too much unconditional love, and as a consequence you have been deprioritized. All her bad behavior comes from that. And if you try to address symptoms, without hitting the root cause, you will continue to get nowhere.





norajane said:


> "I need to feel _desired _in order to feel loved. I don't feel desired or loved in this relationship. Every time you reject sex, I feel you are rejecting ME and I feel less and less desired and loved. OUR MARRIAGE IS IN SERIOUS TROUBLE."
> 
> Honestly, if she doesn't get that, none of the other stuff the guys wrote in this thread is going to get her one step closer to "getting it" and wanting to change the current dynamics between you. The more you push for "sex" the more she will shut down because it sounds like all you care about is the sexual release, which is the opposite of what you want. And you don't want sex anyway - you want to feel desired because she WANTS you.


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

Makes perfect sense. I've conditioned her to treat me like this and I have to stop that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> MC,
> If you ARE going to address feelings, use Norajanes approach below.
> 
> As for 'all the things you want to address', you are wasting your time with symptoms, and not 'root' causes. The root causes are simple: You have given her way too much unconditional love, and as a consequence you have been deprioritized. All her bad behavior comes from that. And if you try to address symptoms, without hitting the root cause, you will continue to get nowhere.


You stuck this like an olympic gymnist sticks their landing.

She's been conditioned for "Y" level of input for "X" level of output on her behalf. And the X is many times less than the Y.

It's hard to change those expectations.

I bet you even subconsciously and in body language that your not aware of that your giving and not getting.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> MC,
> If you ARE going to address feelings, use Norajanes approach below.
> 
> As for 'all the things you want to address', you are wasting your time with symptoms, and not 'root' causes. The root causes are simple: You have given her way too much unconditional love, and as a consequence you have been deprioritized. All her bad behavior comes from that. And if you try to address symptoms, without hitting the root cause, you will continue to get nowhere.


This and Norajanes comment have to be the best pieces of advice I have ever read related to dealing with a LD spouse.

We'll said and as clear as you can get.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Yes.

And if you think about your most recent discussion, she believes that the two of you agreed to the following exchange:
- She tolerates weekly (at best) use of her body for sex
- You continue to keep her needs, wants,whims and preferences at the top of your priority queue

That strikes me as frightening. Better for you to continue down the path of making your priorities number one, and supporting her when doing so doesn't get in the way of that. 

But START with sleep. Yep. Sleep. Because allowing her to deprive you of sleep is not only weak, but it weakens you emotionally. Because the next day you are tired. So convey and enforce your boundary. Which is:

Serious conversations need to end by 9 PM (or whatever is one hour before you wish to sleep). If she begins a convo like that after 9 PM, just smile, tilt your head and ask her: What time is it?
And when she 'pokes' you via some emasculating comment just turn to face her directly, make eye contact and say: 'No'. 
Calm, firm voice. Just that one word. And then turn and walk away. 

If you need to, be prepared to put a lock (a real one) on a second bedroom door and when this happens, go in there and lock the door and put headphones on. 

If she really is capable of malice, get a voice activated recorder and record 3 nights of her trying to provoke you. Then do a 180 until she agrees to MC. 


When cults indoctrinate new members, sleep deprivation is a core strategy they use. It makes humans more pliable. 




McMuffin said:


> Makes perfect sense. I've conditioned her to treat me like this and I have to stop that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

What is she resentful about besides sex? What is clouding her desire for you?

Does she give any indication? Do you have any guesses?


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## whathappenedtome (Nov 4, 2013)

I said in another thread, my LD wife used to shut me down all the time. I got to the point where I refused to initiate, and the frequency of the sex actually went up. 

She needed to feel desired, and because I wasn't initiating, she would to satisfy that need. 

I wouldn't say it went up to the level I would prefer, but it is MUCH better than it was.


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## movealong (Aug 9, 2013)

May I suggest reading the first chapter of this book? It is posted on line at the link below.

Divorce Busting® - Books on Marriage - First Chapter of Sex-Starved Marriage

I am 3/4 of the way through it and it is making a lot of sense. It has changed the dynamic for us a bit already. I can tell you that if you keep doing what you're doing you'll keep getting what you've been getting. You need to make changes for your sanity. If you feel like what you read at the link I provided is a good start, send the link to your wife and ask her to read the first chapter as well. When I sent my wife the link, she actually ordered two of the books for us to read and put into use.

What have you got to lose?


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

GettingIt said:


> What is she resentful about besides sex? What is clouding her desire for you?
> 
> Does she give any indication? Do you have any guesses?


I honestly do not have any clue whatsoever!


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## McMuffin (Dec 17, 2012)

movealong said:


> May I suggest reading the first chapter of this book? It is posted on line at the link below.
> 
> Divorce Busting® - Books on Marriage - First Chapter of Sex-Starved Marriage
> 
> ...


I just had her read this and although she says she understands, she still tried to pick it apart. So I asked her boldly, do you want to make it a priority? She said, ill try my best. I didnt know what that really meant because I was waiting on a "until blah blah" or "but once, blah, blah" so I just asked her to say yes or no and an argument ensued. I hypothetically asked her, "if i said nothing would change either way, what would your answer be?" and she said no, because it isnt a priority. 

I said to her that if she is really going to try, then I will get the book. She got mad, said I was trying to force her into saying yes or no instead of accepting her answer, accused me of just wanting to argue, so I said ok, ill get the book. Just ordered it, will be here Tuesday.....

my head is still spinning...


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

McMuffin said:


> I just had her read this and although she says she understands, she still tried to pick it apart. So I asked her boldly, do you want to make it a priority? She said, ill try my best. I didnt know what that really meant because I was waiting on a "until blah blah" or "but once, blah, blah" so I just asked her to say yes or no and an argument ensued. I hypothetically asked her, "if i said nothing would change either way, what would your answer be?" and she said no, because it isnt a priority.
> 
> I said to her that if she is really going to try, then I will get the book. She got mad, said I was trying to force her into saying yes or no instead of accepting her answer, accused me of just wanting to argue, so I said ok, ill get the book. Just ordered it, will be here Tuesday.....
> 
> my head is still spinning...


An image of a cat playing with a mouse jumps to mind. 

Stop being the mouse.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

It seems if it were a priority to her the book would not be needed. Shes likely lashing out because she has to choose between making this thing important to her when its not or looking like an a-holio. She doesnt want to choose changing and she doesnt want to choose moody unhappy husband. She would rather keep things the way she likes them of course. She probably wonders why you don't change to make her happy in this matter.

(I'm on your side of course. Sex is very important and making sure my spouse feels desired and has these experiences is my priority and should be a priority on marriage - in my opinion.)


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MC,
The two ultimate aphrodisiacs are:
- Power and
- Playfullness (humor, your own happiness, fun, excitement, etc.)

The two ultimate turn offs are:
- Weakness (Neediness, fear, anger, etc.)
- Heavy, serious, analytical and detailed attempts to control your partners behavior

I am going to summarize your most recent conversation:
You: I'm unhappy and it's YOUR fault
Her: I am turned off and it's YOUR fault 
You: Read this book, it will fix you
Her: Leave me the fvck alone!!!

MC,
Prioritize yourself. 
- Do not allow her to disrupt your sleep
- Engage in outside Activities that leave you feeling good
- Enforce financial discipline 
- Adopt a playful but firm approach to conflict with your wife. Tape record an argument and remind yourself in advance to keep your comments very brief and light/humorous. And nicely tell her you are going to 'run some errands', if she is trying to hijack your emotional state. 


0. Stop discussing the relationship with her. When she complains about you being distant, just laugh and say 'I'm sorry you feel that way'. Do NOT engage in a discussion with her about what 'she' wants from you. And most of all don't tell her the truth, which is she wants to be loved, doesn't really love back and the result is servitude, not mutuality. Do NOT tell her that. She needs to come to that realization herself. 

1. Find healthy, fulfilling activities outside the house that don't include her. 
2. Make sure that you are saving a healthy amount of money by insisting on a rational budget that gives you both an equal amount of discretionary money. Enforce the budget. Many folks end up stuck in a marriage because they have zero or negative net worth. If your W demands a standard of living that prevents healthy savings, then you firmly convey that she needs to earn the 'delta' for that to happen. If need be, cancel credit cards and switch to debit cards. If she wants to argue/fight about money, stay playful: Don't be naughty or I will spank you and move us both to debit cards. And then if she is not sticking with the program, do what you said. No discussion, no arguments. Just do it. 



3. Do not mention the book again. If she asks, tell her where it is. But don't put it on the kitchen counter or God forbid her night table. 
4. 






McMuffin said:


> I just had her read this and although she says she understands, she still tried to pick it apart. So I asked her boldly, do you want to make it a priority? She said, ill try my best. I didnt know what that really meant because I was waiting on a "until blah blah" or "but once, blah, blah" so I just asked her to say yes or no and an argument ensued. I hypothetically asked her, "if i said nothing would change either way, what would your answer be?" and she said no, because it isnt a priority.
> 
> I said to her that if she is really going to try, then I will get the book. She got mad, said I was trying to force her into saying yes or no instead of accepting her answer, accused me of just wanting to argue, so I said ok, ill get the book. Just ordered it, will be here Tuesday.....
> 
> my head is still spinning...


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## FLman (Nov 6, 2013)

MEM is right, she feels threatened and forced in a way, you have to find other ways to slowly win her trust back, I went through the entire thing just recently after 18 years of marriage., If wife feels obligated or forced through constant reminder and smart remarks they will shutdown and brew some resentment without much of your knowledge except the things you want the most, which ounds like sex. I've always been HD and her LD, however, we have more intimacy than every before after months of crap (long story), even when she was young she had very little drive or interest, what brought her around is not being aroused and wanting it like a man, its the opposite for most women, now I have met women that have more drive than I do, but that's a different subject...but what will work the best for you as my first post mentioned is the connecting time, doing and sharing things together outside of the bedroom!

Trust me we have read books together etc etc, it can only shed limited light on what is wrong. You have to realize your needs are different than hers...a great book is actually HER NEEDS HIS NEEDS, picked up from the library without knowing much about it, this guy has been around and consulted with thousands of couples, first person to come up with the "love bank" which if you think about it has some solid merits...without a full account in her love bank, she will not give you what you want, so first try to give her hugs without any sexual advancement, try to be interested in her hobbies or interest etc, it might feel awkward at first since you have tension, but that's the exact point, make her feel included that she is actually in a marriage and has a partner...it will take some time, perhaps couple of months, but I can tell you if she truly still loves you (perhaps not in love with you), she will slowly fall in love with you and physical acts will become "normal" and not as repulsive to her as she feels the love back!

One added comment, we do change with time, but yu hav to realize what qualites won her over, its sounds very counter productive, but simplest things can turn people around, a touch, hug, complement, understanding, support, being positive, attentive, sharing etc...all the things we did when we were in love or interested in a partner...when that fades so does the dynamics and the mechanisms (intimacy etc)...


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