# PLEASE!!! To Say I need HELP would be an Enourmous Understatemet!!!



## MPDBlues

Hi, My name is Mike and I...NEED...HELP...I need to become the man I should be...and that I have never been!

I have just recently found this forum and have been reading through some of the posts from the past few years. Specifically "The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R" and just tonight I found another posting "Calling all MEN! I need your help"

I have known for a while but ignored it and only just woke up to realize in just a few days that I am in serious trouble in my Marriage, and I want to repair it.

My wife has lost all respect for me, is completely resentful of me, berates me over almost everything, belittles me, treats me like a child, and just recently told me that she finds me utterly unattractive. I realize this sounds horrible to say about her...but amazingly after just reading a few posts here...albeit from a while ago, I find I am largely to blame for it...I am the epitome of the "NICE GUY" and as far from MANNING UP as you can get. I know she loves me...sounds weird to say that but I see it in her eyes...but then there are times when she looks at me and I can see disgust.

She told me the other night with tears in her eyes that she finds me unattractive because of the way I laugh and giggle at times ( I do have a "higher" pitch and timber to my voice and laugh, no Barry White here, except first thing in the morning...lol), and although it's been the same since I met her, she told me it just keeps getting more and more grating when I do it, and she wishes that I would change it so that she would be more attracted to me, that she desperately WANTS to be attracted to me, because she loves me. But...I'm beginning to see that this is about WAY more than just my laugh...

After reading the 'Thermostat' post I was blown away by how it was as if MEM11363 was sitting in my house watching me and my wife interact on a daily basis... I am TOTALLY the 'HOT' and she is the 'COLD'. In just the last 2 days I have already put some of the things I read into effect, started "Cooling down", and plan on continuing to add everything I can( but it's hard to change so many bad habits...) 

Today, based on hearing about it here, I bought the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert Glover" and was shocked to see myself in the very first few pages. I hope that when I finish it I will be able to adapt my life and become more manly...

I was raised by mostly woman since I was 5...my parents got divorced and I had NO father figures in my life at all. I'm awash in disbelief at how quickly, literally 2 days, I have come to realize that I am not a man...I am a 6' tall 350lb mousy, girly, little boy. I am more than physically capable, pretty strong actually, a jack of all trades, mechanical, imaginative, musical, I go through all the motions of being a man. But I'm not really a MAN.

I come to all of you with the hope that I will be able to unburden myself of some things and that I will be able to learn how to become the kind of MAN that stands up for himself, has his own opinions and can stand toe to toe with a wife who will respect me and think of me as an equal once again and who will find me attractive again. 

I don't know if they are still active members or not, but the people I was really impressed with were MEM11363, BigBadWolf, Deejo, and Conrad, I hope that someone out there will maybe know them, and that they are around still and will be able to help me with their insight, and more than a little manly advice. 

I realize I sound desperate...and I am, because I have a beautiful wife and daughter that I want to take care of, and have in my life. But if I can't become the man my wife & daughter need, and that I WANT to be. I will lose myself and them...hope someone out there reads this and finds something worth saving. 

Thanks! Mike


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## EleGirl

Welcome aboard... Sorry to hear what you are going through. Not being much of a male role model myself, I'm not sure if i can be much of a help. You need those guys you listed and others. They will be along help you as others will.


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## morituri

Mike, you can PM those TAM members if you'd like to get their input.


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## Love Song

Bat signal on. Batmobile on it's way.


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## The Renegade

Mike, definitely contact those guys you have mentioned and do read through their past posts as well.

From my side, I'd recommend the following:

1) Stand yourself up in front of the mirror and say for one last time (for your entire life!): "I am not a man ... I am a 6' tall 350lb mousy, girly, little boy." Then turn yourself around 360 and say: "Today is the day when I became THE MAN. For my wife, for my daughter and for every other woman on this planet! They respect me, they admire me, they worship me." (you will instantly feel a different smile, look, posture, ... on yourself)
And even if it's hard to believe at first, keep re-inforcing THAT thought over the other. The games you play in your own head have enormous impact on your life. 

2) Detach yourself for a moment from your family (mentally) and let go of any outcome. Focus completely on yourself and how you amp up your value as a guy. Start with your physical appearance. The way you dress, the way you walk and generally carry yourself, look people in the eyes, claim your physical space. Demonstrate physically that you are a man. Be ok with coming off a tad arrogantly. Most guys I come across underestimate the power of the way they physically appear. A lot of them can add up 2 points within an hour. 
You will soon realize a difference in your confidence and by that also in your attitude. It will become easier then to "cool down" and to reestablish your boundaries (and do all those things written in the thermostat).
Don't do that for her, do it for yourself as a social animal in general (and, please, bite your tongue off before you ask her for advice on what you should wear or how you should look).

3) Together with it, let go of some of the seriousness in your relationship, which I assume is hanging in the air like heavy smoke. Take it on you to introduce more of a lighter side. Play, laugh, go through the internet and find some humorous stories, jokes, games. (This is not to become her clown, but to be more interesting.) Try to, intentionally, not get too close as a partner, but rather keep her at "arms length". Start playing and also show yourself from your sexy side. Girls do like that. 

And, by the way, I congratulate you for realizing that your daughter needs you to be as much of a MAN as your wife does. I have a 4 year old myself and I know it's really easy letting yourself be taken advantage of by those kind of "women".


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## Machiavelli

Another must read book/blog you need to get is "Married Man Sex Life". It's about how to increase your wife's attraction to you by playing up certain behaviors and reducing others. The blog is excellent and should be read, but you need to read the book ASAP.

Also, 6' 360#? That's going to be a body fat percentage of around 55-70%, even if you're genetically gifted. If you are genetically gifted, you need to be 200# @ 8% body fat. Look for a book/blog called "The Primal Solution". The food advice is fantastic, you'll be looking better and feeling better almost right away. Ignore his exercise advice, though.

The last book to get is "The New High Intensity Training" on Amazon. One of the best $13 you'll spend. Ignore his diet advice, though.

Google "lowering your speaking voice."


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## Halien

Well, its awkward to know that that those first among us who reply are not the ones that you are looking to for advice, but I've noticed that Deejo often replies more in the evening. You can PM some of them.

Look others will surely disagree, but considering your goal here, you have to realize that because your wife has been allowed to overstep some very basic boundaries of simple human respect for a spouse, this will not be an easy change. If your chosen plan is just focused on being distant and the lower temp one, she's still going to cross that boundary for quite a while.

Don't ever underestimate the power of calling out a person for each and every instance of crossing the boundary of respect, and making an issue of it each time, reminding them that you expect to be treated like you treat her. Invite her to leave the room until she can speak to you like a good wife treats a good husband. Me, I start out by making mountains of molehills, almost, which resets boundaries pretty quickly. She'll feel like she has suddenly landed on a foreign planet or something. When she "berates" you, you don't have to scream or argue. Never insult.  You say that you WILL NOT be talked to like that. Use comedy, even. When she comments and says that your voice sounds like a girl, ask her if this is the part where you get to reply about how those pants "really" look on her bottom. For me, the key is to net let it get drawn out into an argument. Reply, reinforce boundaries, then ask her to come back when she can talk to you with respect. If she pursues you, tell her you will not talk to her until it can be a respectful discussion. Do it again, and again, and again.

The key here, is to force yourself to see her on the same level as you see yourself. Right now, it seems like you are looking upward, towards a superior. But you did not marry a superior. You married someone that you could respect, and who would respect you, in turn. She only walks over those boundaries because it is safe to do so.


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## MPDBlues

Thanks for the responses and welcomes...And the assist on the info and Bat signal...lol

TheRenegade...

I will try the mirror moment today and see how I feel...I mean, really think about it for a change, not just say the words. I have already begun the process of making myself feel and look better...and I do realize that a lot of the changes necessary to make this work will be on my end...I don't have any false preconception that my wife will be making any drastic changes until she starts to address her OWN issues. And your right I definitely need to amp up on the humor and lighter side of me...she always responded really well to my humor when we dated and first got married and then through the years she finds less and less things fun or funny from me. I will take that advice about finding humorous things online and trying to slide them into conversation...Not crow-barring them in.

Machiavelli...

I realize what your thinking..."Dude let himself go BIG TIME...that's why she doesn't find him attractive". Seeing this from just the first statement I would draw the same conclusion. And although you are right about genetics...I got the worst possible draw on that one...I am actually halfway to my Goal weight of 250lbs...See, I started losing weight about a year ago, and have lost 100lbs! I was heavy when I met my wife and just got heavier...although currently I am about 25lbs less than I was the day we got married. Fitness advice, although not really what I'm here for at the moment, will STILL be greatly appreciated and I will look into that book you mentioned, as well as Googling "trying to lower the register of my voice". Thanks!

Halien...

No reason to feel awkward...I only mentioned them by name because they are the first of what I hope will be a long line of people like yourself, willing to help me through this. I'm not one for asking for help and never thought I would be on a forum for advice, but so many of the posts I read were just so dead on, kind, helpful, and understanding, and hit so close to home, that for the first time I saw that 'asking' for help in this instance WAS the MANLY thing to do. I welcome any advice and opinions that you and many others feel might help.

Your dead on with the boundary issue here...there are none. I want to call foul and be all, "why does she do this to me", but like I said in just a few days of reading this forum and starting the No More Mr. Nice Guy book, I, as a MAN, have to blame myself because if I don't SET boundaries, how will she know that they are there. But here is the problem...I REALLY need the examples and knowledge in order to see how to address these issues without being a whiny little boy.

I'll give you 2 examples of things I think I failed at just last night...

EXAMPLE 1:
My wife and daughter were out doing errands after work last night...I came home and she had cooked a gravy, and asked me to put water on for pasta...no biggie, I helped out. Then after dinner I helped clean up, I feel as a husband, and a father, I should set a good example, by putting in some effort on that side of things. As I was cleaning the table, my wife kept moving an empty pitcher around the table...closer and closer to me (she makes her own Ice-t in it) Earlier this week I had filled it for her without being asked to (being the NICE GUY pleaser before coming here, she did say thanks)...I kept telling myself "don't fill it, wait to be asked to", we were having some light conversation as we folded a few clothes together (she does all the laundry, it's not wrong of me to fold my own socks and underwear in my book) and before I knew what my mouth was doing I heard: 

ME "would you like me to fill that for you?" 
HER "Sure"
ME "two quarts?
HER "yes 2...no 3 this time"
(finished filling it and put it on the counter away from the folded clothes...last thing I wanted was to spill it on the dry clothes (another Girly moment, *cringe*)
HER..." " Yup nothing...no thank you, and I could physically see her cool off, the conversation died and I left the room...

I failed a test, but this time I recognized it...albeit after the fact. Well maybe before too and yet I still failed it. I made the classic "hotter" partner mistake and tried to please her and get some acceptance from her.

Example 2:
When I got home last night it was hot as hell in the house so I opened a bunch of windows and the back door to the deck which has a big screen in it to let in the breeze.

My wife, after having cooled down on me, sat playing computer games instead of connecting with me and watching some TV together...(distance because I failed the earlier test, I'm sure) she gets up and brings her glass into the kitchen:

HER "Want to close the back door?"
ME "Sure, go ahead"
HER "No...I mean are you gonna close the door, I think it's been open long enough, and it's not really helping any, I don't know why you even left it open"
ME "because it was hot in here" (trying like hell to keep from snapping) She then walks back into the living room, where I am sitting on the couch, at the opposite end of the house from the door, that just a moment ago she was within a few steps of.
ME "You know you were in the kitchen, you could have simply closed the door yourself"
HER" why should I, I didn't open it?"
ME " Well...because I am sitting down and you were in the kitchen and the kinder thing would have been to close the door"
HER (nothing for a moment, then coldly) "I'm going to bed, Goodnight"
ME (with very little love but still upbeat as if nothings wrong) "...Goodnight"

Now...let the picking apart begin...and don't hold back!!! I have a thick skin after all these years and want to hear the TRUTH...as well as hear how I should have done things differently in order to effect a better outcome. Show me how to set those boundaries and how to respond correctly so that she sees a MAN telling her "that is not how you will talk/act toward me" not a little boy that she can walk over anymore.

I know I am running on and on, and I probably will for a while, I won't apologize for that because I need to get this out and find the answers before I explode and cause more damage then good. Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from any and all of you whether good or bad.

Mike


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## Stonewall

do a 180


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## The Renegade

Mike, I feel you doing big steps and all the stuff you're reading and learning now will pay off. 

Commenting on your examples (please keep in mind that's an opinion from an outsider who does not necessarily know all the inside information in your family, but I guess you can judge that right.)

Example 1)
I would have probably not asked (believe it will feel like sitting on a hot stone for you when the situation comes up again, but just don't). I would have maybe kept talking and, as if it would be an unconscious move, would simply have moved that pitcher step by step back to her. 

In case you asked already, after she says "Sure" you'll ask for something much bigger in return. Normally I'd recommend something sexual, presented in a lighthearted, playful way. Maybe not possible when your daughter is on the same table, so pick something else. There's always something. 

It will help, by the way, to sit down for a moment and collect some 4 or 5 things together in your head so that you are prepared when the situation comes up again next time.

If you get a deal, there's no harm in getting her that jar filled up again. If you don't she'll understand she'll have to get it herself.

Example 2)
Latest at the point where she says "Why should I, I didn't open it." I would probably have said "Alright, then." without moving myself an inch. I'd later close it whenever it fits to me.

Man, others might do other things. What I just mentioned works for me. My wife and me have a fantastic relationship. High on trust, high on sex, ... . Sometimes we still fight to extremes, but then I'm doing exactly those kind of things and don't back down, no matter what. But she learned to understand my power in those situations and eventually loves me more for it because this is where she finds her unconditional trust in me (passing the tests).

And if she goes to her room then, bursts out in tears and gives you all kinds of animal names and blames you for the first and second world war - that's really a good sign.


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## Halien

MPDBlues said:


> I'll give you 2 examples of things I think I failed at just last night...
> 
> EXAMPLE 1:
> My wife and daughter were out doing errands after work last night...I came home and she had cooked a gravy, and asked me to put water on for pasta...no biggie, I helped out. Then after dinner I helped clean up, I feel as a husband, and a father, I should set a good example, by putting in some effort on that side of things. As I was cleaning the table, my wife kept moving an empty pitcher around the table...closer and closer to me (she makes her own Ice-t in it) Earlier this week I had filled it for her without being asked to (being the NICE GUY pleaser before coming here, she did say thanks)...I kept telling myself "don't fill it, wait to be asked to", we were having some light conversation as we folded a few clothes together (she does all the laundry, it's not wrong of me to fold my own socks and underwear in my book) and before I knew what my mouth was doing I heard:
> 
> ME "would you like me to fill that for you?"
> HER "Sure"
> ME "two quarts?
> HER "yes 2...no 3 this time"
> (finished filling it and put it on the counter away from the folded clothes...last thing I wanted was to spill it on the dry clothes (another Girly moment, *cringe*)
> HER..." " Yup nothing...no thank you, and I could physically see her cool off, the conversation died and I left the room...
> 
> I failed a test, but this time I recognized it...albeit after the fact. Well maybe before too and yet I still failed it. I made the classic "hotter" partner mistake and tried to please her and get some acceptance from her.
> 
> Example 2:
> When I got home last night it was hot as hell in the house so I opened a bunch of windows and the back door to the deck which has a big screen in it to let in the breeze.
> 
> My wife, after having cooled down on me, sat playing computer games instead of connecting with me and watching some TV together...(distance because I failed the earlier test, I'm sure) she gets up and brings her glass into the kitchen:
> 
> HER "Want to close the back door?"
> ME "Sure, go ahead"
> HER "No...I mean are you gonna close the door, I think it's been open long enough, and it's not really helping any, I don't know why you even left it open"
> ME "because it was hot in here" (trying like hell to keep from snapping) She then walks back into the living room, where I am sitting on the couch, at the opposite end of the house from the door, that just a moment ago she was within a few steps of.
> ME "You know you were in the kitchen, you could have simply closed the door yourself"
> HER" why should I, I didn't open it?"
> ME " Well...because I am sitting down and you were in the kitchen and the kinder thing would have been to close the door"
> HER (nothing for a moment, then coldly) "I'm going to bed, Goodnight"
> ME (with very little love but still upbeat as if nothings wrong) "...Goodnight"
> 
> Now...let the picking apart begin...and don't hold back!!! I have a thick skin after all these years and want to hear the TRUTH...as well as hear how I should have done things differently in order to effect a better outcome. Show me how to set those boundaries and how to respond correctly so that she sees a MAN telling her "that is not how you will talk/act toward me" not a little boy that she can walk over anymore.
> 
> I know I am running on and on, and I probably will for a while, I won't apologize for that because I need to get this out and find the answers before I explode and cause more damage then good. Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from any and all of you whether good or bad.
> 
> Mike


After the door, this his how you should have responded, in my opinion:

HER" why should I, I didn't open it?" (referring to the door)

YOU (the new you) "So, let me get this straight, in what you are saying that our relationship should be like. Since you drink the tea, and it is your tea pitcher, you are telling me that I should never, ever fill your tea pitcher for you again, or do something nice for you, even though you are my wife?"

HER "What does the tea have to do with it?"

YOU "It has everything to do with it. If you stoop to immature passive aggressive behavior towards me, I will not reward that behavior by trying to make you happy."

--- I'm not recommended tit-for-tat. Don't get angry, or stoop to her level. I do believe that if you put her on the spot, or deflect in some of the humorous ways that MEM recommends in other posts, she'll start paying attention to the difference in how she treats you, in comparison to how she expects to be treated. You don't have to get stung but a few random times to start thinking about what you are doing, and how hurtful it may be.


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## MPDBlues

Stonewall...

I'm still unsure as to that reference, I haven't found the post where it comes from. If there is one...could you provide a link to that info?





The Renegade said:


> Example 1)
> I would have probably not asked (believe it will feel like sitting on a hot stone for you when the situation comes up again, but just don't). I would have maybe kept talking and, as if it would be an unconscious move, would simply have moved that pitcher step by step back to her.
> 
> 
> Example 2)
> Latest at the point where she says "Why should I, I didn't open it." I would probably have said "Alright, then." without moving myself an inch. I'd later close it whenever it fits to me.


Example1:

Surprisingly I had started with just that, I moved it off of the table when I was wiping up the crumbs from my daughter, and then I put it back closer to her...I actually think I moved it twice toward her...then the old me shoved his foot in my mouth...
I didn't even think of the idea, after the fact, of asking what I would get in return...I think it would definitely have been a bad time to ask about sex as I am trying like hell to stop saying ILY and Ask for sex...the whole Thermostat thing of the 'hot' partner cooling down. I have been pretty good about it for a few days now, but have just begun the process...only say it if she does and temper the response as the post recommended. etc...

Example 2:

With the exception of responding on why SHE should have (which I now know is NOT what I should have done 20/20 and all) I did just that...When she said goodnight, I just went right back to watching TV and didn't close it until later after I was in that room and posting last night...


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## MPDBlues

Halien said:


> After the door, this his how you should have responded, in my opinion:
> 
> HER" why should I, I didn't open it?" (referring to the door)
> 
> YOU (the new you) "So, let me get this straight, in what you are saying that our relationship should be like. Since you drink the tea, and it is your tea pitcher, you are telling me that I should never, ever fill your tea pitcher for you again, or do something nice for you, even though you are my wife?"
> 
> HER "What does the tea have to do with it?"
> 
> YOU "It has everything to do with it. If you stoop to immature passive aggressive behavior towards me, I will not reward that behavior by trying to make you happy."
> 
> --- I'm not recommended tit-for-tat. Don't get angry, or stoop to her level. I do believe that if you put her on the spot, or deflect in some of the humorous ways that MEM recommends in other posts, she'll start paying attention to the difference in how she treats you, in comparison to how she expects to be treated. You don't have to get stung but a few random times to start thinking about what you are doing, and how hurtful it may be.


Wow Halien...it's so brilliant in it's simplicity, But my mind never even connected the 2 separate things like you did, even after I posted them last night...THIS is why I need the help...If I could have said that she might have been pissy about it or gotten mad but I would been completely justified and right to say it just that way...Why doesn't my brain work like that?


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## Conrad

"When I left it open, I was hoping to watch your beautiful ass jiggle as you walked across the room to close it"

Followed by a playful grin


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## AFEH

Set yourself a plan to lose 150Ibs within a set timescale and do it! You will greatly increase your impulse control and delayed gratification and by those means your self-esteem and self-respect. Once you have healthy levels of esteem and respect for yourself then you wont tolerate any less from anybody else, including your wife.


Read up on boundaries and develop your own set and then assert them http://www.bettermen.org/better-men-store.asp. Even just reading about them will give you a very much greater sense of who you are and will make your head go up and your back go straight.


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## Halien

MPDBlues said:


> Wow Halien...it's so brilliant in it's simplicity, But my mind never even connected the 2 separate things like you did, even after I posted them last night...THIS is why I need the help...If I could have said that she might have been pissy about it or gotten mad but I would been completely justified and right to say it just that way...Why doesn't my brain work like that?


MPDBlues, her behavior probably didn't reach that point overnight, and your journey, now that you recognize the need to change, will also take time. Once all of the opinions here, and the reading sets in, you'll start really seeing how the many examples in your relationship connect to just a few common problems in the dynamics of your marriage. Then, you'll make those connections instinctively.

Deejo mentioned something along these lines recently in how he learned to approach relationships differently. 

I think the biggest surprise you'll probably learn along the way is that your wife will not be proud of her own past behavior once you come to the place where you move forward in a healthier way. She'll see the new you, and appreciate how much you loved and respected her all along, and that can be pretty powerful if she has the maturity to accept the changes you make in yourself.

I hope you stay active in this thread and others. Weekends can be slow, but give it some time.


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## Thor

Since you have the book and it looks like a fit, definitely get active on the No More Mr. Nice Guy support forums at No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin . The bent over there is a bit different than here, being oriented towards you and your improvement. Your life will improve as you make changes to yourself.

You cannot control your wife. You cannot make her be attracted to you. In a year you might be as handsome and sophisticated as Brad Pitt, yet she might still be repulsed by you. So the goal from the NMMNG perspective is for you to build the best YOU that is possible. There is plenty of advice and support to be found with respect to your marriage over there, but it is definitely from a different perspective than on this forum.

Other good books to consider are "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" and "The Way of the Superior Man". Those would be after finishing NMMNG.


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## MEM2020

Mike,
This is a great post. What I like best about it is that you are highly aware of both your own behavior and your wifes reaction to it. 

It is really valuable that you are able to see both sides of your wife's reaction to you. The loving looks and the umm "not so loving looks". 

The one thing I completely disagree with is your self assessment at the end of your post. You do lots of things that we all think of as making a good man. I read the list of things you are good at twice and it is an impressive list. Throughout your life, *you have repeatedly demonstrated the ability to identify and develop useful skills*. The main reason you are currently in a bad spot is that no one ever told you anything about the importance of developing a set of *gender specific interpersonal skills.* 

So here you are, at the beginning of what will be a very interesting learning experience. And perhaps it is a bit confusing because there is a lot of information and it is difficult to know where to begin. The good news is that this skillset can be broken down into small chunks. That way you can focus on specific areas to improve, and move on once you have mastered them. 

It sounds like you already figured out the first step in this process on your own: 
1. Do not constantly seek your wife's approval and love

That one step is a big one. It drives an AMAZING amount of clingy behavior for the "hotter partner" and encourages an equal amount of hostile behavior from the "colder partner". 

The way to execute (1) is to write a list of what you believe you are doing that fits this category. For each item, make a sub-list of the situations where you do it. I will give you two simple examples:
- I am almost always the person who says "I love you" first:
a. When I am going out even for a short time
b. When I leave for work
c. When I return from work
d. Just before we go to sleep at night
- I am always the person who tries to "make up" or apologize when we have a fight:
a. Even when my partner started it
b. Even if they said hateful things to me
c. Even if they did this in front of the children/other people
d. I often try to hug my partner when they are still angry - even if they started the fight - because I can't stand it when they are mad at me. 
- I am always trying to touch / hug / kiss my partner. I do this when:
a. We watch tv
b. Etc.

Make your list - whatever it is. And then your plan becomes remarkably simple:
1. I will say "I love you" when my partner says it to me. 
a. I will smile at them when they say it, but I won't "go overboard" with my reaction. I won't do cartwheels or hug them. 
b. In all other situations - when I leave the house, at night, etc. I will replace it with a friendly phrase: "See you tonight, sleep well". 
c. After a while (a week or two) I will start saying it once a day, perhaps before sleep, or when leaving for work. IF my partner responds well to that - I will LEAVE IT THERE. If they wish to hear it more often, they are always welcome to initiate during the day. 
d. If my partner challenges me on this new pattern I will not justify, apologize or explain. I will simply ask them: "If you wish to hear it more often, all you have to do is ask, or say it to me." Stay on that theme. Don't let them change the subject to you - remember a LOT of their hostile behavior is driven by you being too warm. Even so - they are used to the constant reassurance that you used to provide. It is an UNHEALTHY habit for both of you - when one person is always initiating. 

Make your list. And then remind yourself: If you wish to get out of a hole, the very first step is to "stop digging". 

And just like "Columbo" I cannot resist the "one more thing":

As for laughing/giggling you have a choice. If it was me I would convert giggling to laughing and down shift the pitch of my laugh. But that is a very personal choice that only you get to make. 





MPDBlues said:


> Hi, My name is Mike and I...NEED...HELP...I need to become the man I should be...and that I have never been!
> 
> I have just recently found this forum and have been reading through some of the posts from the past few years. Specifically "The thermostat - the ultimate barometer of your R" and just tonight I found another posting "Calling all MEN! I need your help"
> 
> I have known for a while but ignored it and only just woke up to realize in just a few days that I am in serious trouble in my Marriage, and I want to repair it.
> 
> My wife has lost all respect for me, is completely resentful of me, berates me over almost everything, belittles me, treats me like a child, and just recently told me that she finds me utterly unattractive. I realize this sounds horrible to say about her...but amazingly after just reading a few posts here...albeit from a while ago, I find I am largely to blame for it...I am the epitome of the "NICE GUY" and as far from MANNING UP as you can get. I know she loves me...sounds weird to say that but I see it in her eyes...but then there are times when she looks at me and I can see disgust.
> 
> She told me the other night with tears in her eyes that she finds me unattractive because of the way I laugh and giggle at times ( I do have a "higher" pitch and timber to my voice and laugh, no Barry White here, except first thing in the morning...lol), and although it's been the same since I met her, she told me it just keeps getting more and more grating when I do it, and she wishes that I would change it so that she would be more attracted to me, that she desperately WANTS to be attracted to me, because she loves me. But...I'm beginning to see that this is about WAY more than just my laugh...
> 
> After reading the 'Thermostat' post I was blown away by how it was as if MEM11363 was sitting in my house watching me and my wife interact on a daily basis... I am TOTALLY the 'HOT' and she is the 'COLD'. In just the last 2 days I have already put some of the things I read into effect, started "Cooling down", and plan on continuing to add everything I can( but it's hard to change so many bad habits...)
> 
> Today, based on hearing about it here, I bought the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert Glover" and was shocked to see myself in the very first few pages. I hope that when I finish it I will be able to adapt my life and become more manly...
> 
> I was raised by mostly woman since I was 5...my parents got divorced and I had NO father figures in my life at all. I'm awash in disbelief at how quickly, literally 2 days, I have come to realize that I am not a man...I am a 6' tall 350lb mousy, girly, little boy. I am more than physically capable, pretty strong actually, a jack of all trades, mechanical, imaginative, musical, I go through all the motions of being a man. But I'm not really a MAN.
> 
> I come to all of you with the hope that I will be able to unburden myself of some things and that I will be able to learn how to become the kind of MAN that stands up for himself, has his own opinions and can stand toe to toe with a wife who will respect me and think of me as an equal once again and who will find me attractive again.
> 
> I don't know if they are still active members or not, but the people I was really impressed with were MEM11363, BigBadWolf, Deejo, and Conrad, I hope that someone out there will maybe know them, and that they are around still and will be able to help me with their insight, and more than a little manly advice.
> 
> I realize I sound desperate...and I am, because I have a beautiful wife and daughter that I want to take care of, and have in my life. But if I can't become the man my wife & daughter need, and that I WANT to be. I will lose myself and them...hope someone out there reads this and finds something worth saving.
> 
> Thanks! Mike


----------



## Deejo

Welcome to the boards.

You will get a wide array of input. That's a good thing.

You can get a sense of different coping styles and decide if any are a good match for you.

Congratulations on the physical changes you have made thus far. 

One of my personal, primary tenets is that you can't possibly expect your wife to respect or feel good about you, if you don't respect and feel good about yourself.

As others have pointed out, and if you make this journey, you will eventually come to see ... this isn't about your wife. Many, many, guys start there, but your wife CANNOT be the focus if you want this to work. This is my experience, and my opinion.

She can be a variable in the equation, but she isn't the solution. If you consistently find yourself evaluating every exchange between you and your wife, or wondering what she is thinking based upon your response, then you will end up spinning your wheels.

I have uttered the words many times ...

If you want to save your marriage, you need to be prepared to sacrifice it. If your marriage, and what your wife thinks of you is bigger or more important than how you think of yourself and how you choose to conduct, and live your life, then you will find 'manning up' enormously frustrating.

I gave up on trying to save my marriage. Quite simply because ... that's what needed to happen for me to be able to live and love in the manner that is important to ME.

Get comfortable with putting yourself first. Because if you are a dyed in the wool nice guy ... odds are you aren't comfortable with it all.

Any questions, feel free to ask. There are many, many, that have been down this road before you.


----------



## AFEH

We all live our life by our rules. In marriage, two of our rules are “Till death us do part” and “I love her unconditionally”. Meaning I will provide love (Services, Affirmation, Quality Time, Gifts, Physical Touch) for as long as I live no matter what she provides for me or how she treats me.

We’re typically massively bonded with our wife and those two rules form part of our bond. They are perhaps the deepest part of what makes us who we are. But in essence living by those rules we have put our wife ahead of our self, in front of us, over and above us.

Which can over time lead to our wife not only not appreciating us for the man we are and for what we provide and thereby taking us for granted, but also to their disrespect and contempt of us!

It’s seriously crazy stuff. Over time, the better the man you are, the better the provider the less you’re appreciated and respected! And then you get used and abused.



Breaking or at the very least deeply questioning those two rules is essential for real self improvement.


----------



## Halien

MEM11363 said:


> It sounds like you already figured out the first step in this process on your own:
> 1. Do not constantly seek your wife's approval and love
> 
> That one step is a big one. It drives an AMAZING amount of clingy behavior for the "hotter partner" and encourages an equal amount of hostile behavior from the "colder partner".


MEM brings up a point that reminds me of an eye-opening exchange with my marriage counselor. The counselor also gave me a handfull of copies of related articles. She talked about how situations like yours often evolve.

Before marriage, many men assume (maybe rightfully so), that we are less mature about relationships, and we begin to defer to our wives when she talks about "how things should be" in a marriage. There's nothing wrong with naturally deferring to each other if both of you have each others best interests at heart, but sometimes her idea of what is best is what is best for her. We elevate her, a looking upward gesture, like looking up to someone who holds a position of authority over us.

Sometimes, the wife will sense this. If she is not mature, she will lose focus on what is good about the marriage, and begin to resent every thing that keeps her marriage from meeting her expectation for a perfect marriage that meets HER needs. It is no longer a journey where she also looks herself in the mirror to ensure that she is meeting your needs also. From her perspective, she is looking down upon you.

What the others are saying is an important measure in how to value yourself, and the importance of your own happiness. It forces the relationship to become balanced, looking to each other as peers in the marriage. But the thing that we often forget to mention is that it often has the net effect of forcing your wife to once again look at the good in the marriage, and her own responsibility in getting there, instead of just focusing on all that is wrong in the marriage. She can become more content because you have begun to be a voice in the marriage. But there is always a risk that she refuses to let you have a voice in the marriage. It sound like you have the right amout of self-honesty to see both sides, though, and to navigate this needed change in a way that is sensitive to a balance that must be maintained as you change the dynamic of the marriage.


----------



## MPDBlues

MEM...

It is truly uncanny how on the nose the things in your reply truly are...The list you wrote would be me 100%. It's scary! And thank you for the words or encouragement...they are sorely needed right now. 

It's been a rough few days, I have stopped any physical contact with my wife unless she initiates it. I don't say ILY until she says it first which is few and far between, and my responses are simple "me too" or "love you too" as recommended. I have tried to work on lowering my voice and laugh, with some success...It's truly odd how I feel more confident when speaking in a lower register as I find I have to add volume to sound clear...so I am actually speaking up as well as down...lol

I haven't brought up sex in any way and have not tried to get any from her even though I am ready and raring to go. I have been watching her body language and can tell she just doesn't want to be bothered with that right now...She has been depressed for the past few weeks, due in a large part to the fact that our dog...well her dog really, of 15 years just died. I have done my best to be supportive without being clingy, and have been keeping my distance even before I started this journey.

She has a tendency to use sex as a weapon on me...that's not really the word I want...I guess an example would be:

After I got home from working a 11hr day, she says to me after dinner,"boy you should really have been here this morning when I woke up, I had some crazy dreams, we could have had some fun" to which I responded playfully. "why didn't you call me I would have come home?" to which she says "Oh I was fine I took care of myself" and then walks away...She KNOWS I am always ready for sex, but why does she have to be like that?

So anyways, now the weekend is almost over I have been working on the house like crazy, got the pool open, did a bunch of yard work, and painting the deck...Last night I went to bed before her and simply stated to her "why don't you come to bed too?" She answered she would in a bit...Stupid me took that as a maybe she might actually come up, so I stayed up for about an hour more watching TV thinking she might come up...of course she didn't. And to cap it off when she finally did come to bed (at 2am) she wakes me up and says "what's wrong with the AC...it's not on" I responded wordlessly by getting up, turning it off and then turning it back on...it started blowing again...don't know why, crawled back in to bed and for the next hour was awake listening to her snore because I couldn't fall back to sleep.

I took the time this morning to think through what I wanted to say and put my foot down:

ME " Honey, waking me up to check the AC last night was not the ideal thing to do, it would have been preferable if you had at least tried to fix it and if you couldn't and then woke me up"

HER "Well you were moving around I thought you were hot or uncomfortable:

ME " I was asleep, I do that when I sleep"

HER "well where's the remote, I haven't used it since last year?"

ME "Have I? that's just not acceptable to me"

HER "..........." Yup nothing.

So I go back to doing what I was doing...finish painting the deck, Come back inside...take a shower, and come upstairs to find her gone somewhere, no note, no text, no call...I AM PISSED and I don't know how I should deal with this, I have not called or texted her to ask where she is...and I don't know if I should or shouldn't...I want to call her and yell at her and say why did you take off without letting me know???

But instead I am going to go have some lunch, watch a little TV and try and calm myself and relax a little, and based on the things I am learning I will not get angry when she gets home, I will simply say "HI" when she comes back and try have some stiff body language. and if SHE brings it up I will simply tell her that I am disappointed in her for not being courteous enough to let me know she was going out, and that I would think she would know better than that, because I would not do that to her.

So...wish me luck...and if you feel there is a better way to handle this PLEASE let me know, for now, it's off to make a sandwich and try and relax. Hope everyone had a GREAT Memorial Day Weekend!

Thanks,
Mike


----------



## Deejo

Engage less.

If you don't like something, state it. And then be done.

There's nothing to 'discuss'. 'Discussing' empowers her, and disables you. Would you disagree?

Humor is by far, the best weapon you have in your arsenal for dealing with those piddling little things like 'Why did you? ..." or "Why didn't you?..."

There can't possibly be a reasonable answer to an unreasonable question.

Get comfortable with making her uncomfortable. This doesn't mean you treat her poorly. What it means is that you simply don't behave in the predictable fashion that she believes you will.

Her: "Why isn't the AC on?" 

You: "Rolling power outtages. Or ... you could make a wish and push the button Sometimes magic is real... Goodnight."

Ridiculous response? Well, yeah ... to a ridiculous question.


----------



## AFEH

Mike, your wife is playing you/manipulating you. Pulling your strings. And you just like a puppet are responding and prancing all over the place. She sounds like an expert at manipulating you and you sure can dance to her tunes! It’s like you are a remotely controlled car and she has the remote in her hands. Push this button, you go forward, push that button, you crash.


She’s going to see you coming from miles away.


Read Awareness by Anthony de Mello. He will help you DETACH from your wife such that you are no longer so EASILY EMOTIONALLY MANIPULATED.


Anthony de Mello will teach you how to be an emotionally detached observer. He will teach you how to see the dynamics between you and your wife as though you are a detached third person. And you will begin to take yourself out of the equation of the abusive and dysfunctional dynamics between the two of you. And over time CHANGE will happen without you even trying.


----------



## MPDBlues

Deejo said:


> Engage less.
> 
> If you don't like something, state it. And then be done.
> 
> There's nothing to 'discuss'. 'Discussing' empowers her, and disables you. Would you disagree?
> 
> Humor is by far, the best weapon you have in your arsenal for dealing with those piddling little things like 'Why did you? ..." or "Why didn't you?..."
> 
> There can't possibly be a reasonable answer to an unreasonable question.
> 
> Get comfortable with making her uncomfortable. This doesn't mean you treat her poorly. What it means is that you simply don't behave in the predictable fashion that she believes you will.
> 
> Her: "Why isn't the AC on?"
> 
> You: "Rolling power outtages. Or ... you could make a wish and push the button Sometimes magic is real... Goodnight."
> 
> Ridiculous response? Well, yeah ... to a ridiculous question.


Thanks Deejo...

I would have been so happy to think of that last night, but I am brainless when woken from a deep sleep. I know from now on I will try and see and use humor in my dealings with my wife, and to be less engaging in general.




AFEH said:


> Mike, your wife is playing you/manipulating you. Pulling your strings. And you just like a puppet are responding and prancing all over the place. She sounds like an expert at manipulating you and you sure can dance to her tunes! It’s like you are a remotely controlled car and she has the remote in her hands. Push this button, you go forward, push that button, you crash.
> 
> 
> She’s going to see you coming from miles away.
> 
> 
> Read Awareness by Anthony de Mello. He will help you DETACH from your wife such that you are no longer so EASILY EMOTIONALLY MANIPULATED.
> 
> 
> Anthony de Mello will teach you how to be an emotionally detached observer. He will teach you how to see the dynamics between you and your wife as though you are a detached third person. And you will begin to take yourself out of the equation of the abusive and dysfunctional dynamics between the two of you. And over time CHANGE will happen without you even trying.


Thanks AFEH...

I nixed my original plan all together...I didn't call or text, AND I didn't wait around for her to come home and see what happened. I chose something I usually wouldn't do...I left the house myself, No Note, No Text, No Call...did a few errands and came home. 

When I got home the wife and my daughter were there...I greeted my daughter happily, and find my wife fuming in the kitchen folding clothes...I greet her with a "Hey Hun"...Of course I get nothing. I can tell from the snap of the clothes that she is pissed...but I am ignoring it. I continue to do the things around the house that I was planning to do. I can hear her stomping around, btu I am refraining from asking what's wrong, because I know what is wrong...She left without telling me or leaving a note, went shopping, which she knew I was prepared to do with her, and then had to come home and unload the groceries by herself with our daughter. So she is all pissed off about that. I have finally calmed down enough to try and handle this with humor...and plan, when and if she ever askes me where I was, to say. "I thought it was set off on your own, don't say where your going Sunday...It's Not?" with a smile. and le the fun begin...It's funny I am a little mad still but no where near where I was earlier. I am glad I didn't give in to the anger and respond the way she wanted me to.

Bonus!!! While in the middle of typing this response, the back doorbell rings (freshly painted deck!!!) My daughter wants some toys, I grab her off the deck and bring her through the house to the front to find my wife screaming for her...She is freaked out and now pissed at my daughter...she snaps at my daughter and tries to make her go in...I explain that she knows what she did was wrong and that she should be allowed to play...here's the kicker, Now my wife is pissed at me for bringing my daughter in through the house to the front, and blames me for doing it wrong...I calmy explain that I did nothing wrong I brought my daughter in off of the deck and straight through the house to the front where she was...and that that was the right thing to do and I DID NOTHING WRONG then I simply waslked away...no anger, just walked away...

Don't know where this will go but should be interesting I'll let you all know later!


----------



## Deejo

If you have not already ... take a gander at this thread:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html

Your wife sounds like a pro when it comes to fitness tests.


----------



## lovelygirl

What a stupid, childish b!tch your wife is! 
Sorry.

Waking you up for a ridiculous reason, leaving the house without saying anything, being mad at you and scream for no reason.. and other annoying things she does at you..

Who is she to treat you like that and walk over you??
I hate women who don't respect their devoted husbands. 

I'm sorry to hear you're going through this.


----------



## MEM2020

Mike,
You are doing awesome. This stuff takes practice. I want you to think about something that toes back to what deejo, afeh, and others have mentioned.

When your wife does something hostile, like leave without a word, and then you leave and she gets hostile remind yourself of this:
She is using the "I am mad at you BECAUSE you are mad at me"
You aren't allowed to get mad or if you do, you are not allowed to let it impact her.

Next time she is stomping around, IGNORE her. And when she finally engages, she will likely ask you to do something for her. Just smile and say, "I don't understand why you thought it was ok to leave without a note". And go back to ignoring her. Stop trying to make peace when she is initiating hostility.

And if she repeats her demand or request, just reply with "we can discuss your request after I understand why you thought it was ok to ..."

The benefit of this is you stop doing nice things until she apologizes or explains to your satisfaction.

If you get a non-apology like "you are being to sensitive" just smile and say "why are you saying that, when you seem to be the angry person at the moment".
Or "hmmm I am still confused why you though that was ok".

When she is angry and you stay calm, she is wearing herself out and you are not. THAT is the main determinant in a fair outcome.






MPDBlues said:


> Thanks Deejo...
> 
> I would have been so happy to think of that last night, but I am brainless when woken from a deep sleep. I know from now on I will try and see and use humor in my dealings with my wife, and to be less engaging in general.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks AFEH...
> 
> I nixed my original plan all together...I didn't call or text, AND I didn't wait around for her to come home and see what happened. I chose something I usually wouldn't do...I left the house myself, No Note, No Text, No Call...did a few errands and came home.
> 
> When I got home the wife and my daughter were there...I greeted my daughter happily, and find my wife fuming in the kitchen folding clothes...I greet her with a "Hey Hun"...Of course I get nothing. I can tell from the snap of the clothes that she is pissed...but I am ignoring it. I continue to do the things around the house that I was planning to do. I can hear her stomping around, btu I am refraining from asking what's wrong, because I know what is wrong...She left without telling me or leaving a note, went shopping, which she knew I was prepared to do with her, and then had to come home and unload the groceries by herself with our daughter. So she is all pissed off about that. I have finally calmed down enough to try and handle this with humor...and plan, when and if she ever askes me where I was, to say. "I thought it was set off on your own, don't say where your going Sunday...It's Not?" with a smile. and le the fun begin...It's funny I am a little mad still but no where near where I was earlier. I am glad I didn't give in to the anger and respond the way she wanted me to.
> 
> Bonus!!! While in the middle of typing this response, the back doorbell rings (freshly painted deck!!!) My daughter wants some toys, I grab her off the deck and bring her through the house to the front to find my wife screaming for her...She is freaked out and now pissed at my daughter...she snaps at my daughter and tries to make her go in...I explain that she knows what she did was wrong and that she should be allowed to play...here's the kicker, Now my wife is pissed at me for bringing my daughter in through the house to the front, and blames me for doing it wrong...I calmy explain that I did nothing wrong I brought my daughter in off of the deck and straight through the house to the front where she was...and that that was the right thing to do and I DID NOTHING WRONG then I simply waslked away...no anger, just walked away...
> 
> Don't know where this will go but should be interesting I'll let you all know later!


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## InTheBedIMade

Let me preface this with I give horrible advice and may be too alpha for my own good.

In your situation I would issue a safe word, with little to no discussion. Today.
I would take her tomorrow. 

It may be amazingly counter intuitive but you go until you hear that word. You know what you want to do, do it. Another horrible insight into my life that nobody really needs to know is that I dont proceed until she's had an o. Can never stress that enough.

Thank god for Internet anonymity...

In the past this has greatly changed the dynamics in my relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blue Moon

You're doing a good job of being mindful of her slights, but I feel like you're doing a little too much explaining in some situations. I would advise you to disengage more and focus on yourself, while not giving a damn about what she says or how she reacts. Even challenge her a little.

For instance, if she chases behind you nagging about this or that, instead of explaining philosophies, just grin, look her in the eye and say something like "Ehh, what are you gonna do?"

Then turn back around and finish whatever you were doing or go about your business. But be sure it's done in a playful tone while still showing her that you couldn't care less about the venom she's trying to spew your way.


----------



## AFEH

lovelygirl said:


> What a stupid, childish b!tch your wife is!
> Sorry.
> 
> Waking you up for a ridiculous reason, leaving the house without saying anything, being mad at you and scream for no reason.. and other annoying things she does at you..
> 
> Who is she to treat you like that and walk over you??
> I hate women who don't respect their devoted husbands.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear you're going through this.


Yes, in essence the guy’s dealing with the equivalent of a spunky six year old girl yet to be taught manners, propriety and decorum or a truly grudge holding, chip on their shoulder hate the world victim personality teenager.

Unfortunately unlike the father of such a daughter, as her husband he has absolutely no way of punishing her for her seriously abusive behaviour. Unless he withdraws into a 180 and stops providing the services he provides. But that’s seriously difficult because to stop paying the bills, paying for food etc. has all sorts of unwanted consequences. But at the very least going into the 180 will protect him from his wife’s emotionally abusive behaviour.


To protect himself I’d recommend he goes into the 180 and get a good understanding of, grip on and assertion of personal boundaries. Once he’s walking that path he will calm down internally such that peace and comfort enters inside of him and he will see things for what they really are perhaps for the very first time.


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Mike,
> You are doing awesome. This stuff takes practice. I want you to think about something that toes back to what deejo, afeh, and others have mentioned.
> 
> When your wife does something hostile, like leave without a word, and then you leave and she gets hostile remind yourself of this:
> She is using the "I am mad at you BECAUSE you are mad at me"
> You aren't allowed to get mad or if you do, you are not allowed to let it impact her.
> 
> Next time she is stomping around, IGNORE her. And when she finally engages, she will likely ask you to do something for her. Just smile and say, "I don't understand why you thought it was ok to leave without a note". And go back to ignoring her. Stop trying to make peace when she is initiating hostility.
> 
> And if she repeats her demand or request, just reply with "we can discuss your request after I understand why you thought it was ok to ..."
> 
> The benefit of this is you stop doing nice things until she apologizes or explains to your satisfaction.
> 
> If you get a non-apology like "you are being to sensitive" just smile and say "why are you saying that, when you seem to be the angry person at the moment".
> Or "hmmm I am still confused why you though that was ok".
> 
> When she is angry and you stay calm, she is wearing herself out and you are not. THAT is the main determinant in a fair outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. He has to stop REACTING. But to stop reacting he has to first stop being AFFECTED!



Mike you have seriously crap personal boundaries. If you had seriously good personal boundaries your wife’s abusive behaviour would fly right over your head as though in an airliner at 33,000 ft.


She just would not get right inside to the deepest parts of you like she is so easily doing.

Do you comprehend what I am saying?

You HAVE to stop letting her get inside of you. That is under YOUR CONTROL. It is not under anybody else’s control!



If you had good personal boundaries you would be TOTALLY UNAFFECTED by your wife’s abusive behaviour.


Contemplate that for a while. Go outside look up into the sky and think on your wife’s manipulative and abusive behaviour flying right over your head up there in the clouds.


----------



## AFEH

I think a lot of these things are to do with bonding. I think us men are at times as much bonded by our love for our wife and our commitment to her as we are by her abusive and pain causing behaviour.


It is I think that “Treat them mean to keep them keen” thing. We love them AND they treat us mean. The combination results in a massively magnetic attraction. Far more powerful than “just” love. Break one of the attractions, either our love attraction or “mean” attraction and the WHOLE RELATIONSHIP CHANGES!


So if Mike ever does read Awareness and establishes good personal boundaries such that he is TOTALLY DETACHED emotionally from his wife’s abusive behaviour he will perhaps see his wife for the type of woman she is for the very first time.


And if he ever does that he will come to know deep inside of him that it is not he that needs to change for them to remain married together but his wife!


That, if it ever happens, will be the time when the truly big changes will take place in Mike’s life.


----------



## AFEH

Mike, think on for a while, contemplate, that your wife knows EXACTLY what she is doing and she is FULLY CONSCIOUS of it.

You are not feeling hurt, angry, sad, happy, joyful with her by some kind of freak ACCIDENT or sub conscious behaviour on the part of your wife.

Those emotions come to you via deliberate and conscious manipulation by your wife. (You stop them happening or at least from being so deeply affected by them with personal boundaries).


This EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION is for a lot of us a very difficult concept to comprehend or even believe that it actually exists. Most especially if you have never once in your life even THOUGHT about causing another pain let alone actually planning and carrying those thoughts out.


----------



## AFEH

The ART of NEGOTIATION!

Mike, for example your wife wants you to change the way you laugh. What a wonderful opportunity you have to enter into negotiation with her.

Something like “Ok. You’d like me to change the way I laugh. I take all your requests like this seriously. What else would you like me to change about myself?”. Then write down the changes she’d like you to make.

The next step is where the negotiation begins. “There are things I’d like you to change about your self. Are you willing to listen and make those changes?”.

See where this is going?

I actually think the above is how things should be in a marriage. Obviously if the changes requested mean a totally different character, personality then there’s no hope. But I think some changes are all part of love and all part of growing better together.


----------



## 7737

The last book to get is "The New High Intensity Training" on Amazon. One of the best $13 you'll spend. Ignore his diet advice, though.

Or you could get the book 'Special High Intensity Training' on Amazon...!!! Sorry, couldn't resist it!:rofl:


----------



## Tommyboy

Welcome. I understand where you are coming from. I started reading "no more mr. nice guy" last Friday. I was very very shocked to discover the truth about my behavior and what I was doing to the relationship. Almost everything he said about being a nice guy, applied to me. I would say follow the activities in the book and start to keep a journal. Read back and see what you did and what her responses have been. I also got the MMSL and will read that after reading NMMNG a second time. Make sure you have someone you can contact. I have my therapist who is really good and a childhood friend. This will not be an easy process, however the fruits will be worth it. Stay strong.


----------



## Thor

"No More Mr. Nice Guy" by Dr. Robert Glover

No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group - Powered by vBulletin

"The Way of the Superior Man" by David Deida

"When I Say No, I Feel Guilty" by Manuel J Smith


----------



## MPDBlues

lovelygirl said:


> What a stupid, childish b!tch your wife is!
> Sorry.
> 
> Waking you up for a ridiculous reason, leaving the house without saying anything, being mad at you and scream for no reason.. and other annoying things she does at you..
> 
> Who is she to treat you like that and walk over you??
> I hate women who don't respect their devoted husbands.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear you're going through this.


Lovelygirl...

I appreciate your response, for the support as to her walking all over me...But I let that happen and she needs to learn I won't let it happen any more. Although she may be "B!tchy" I have realized that it stems from my ignorance of how to deal with her. I don't think my wife is a b!tch, I truly know she is a wonderful, caring, and loving woman...I have seen that before from her and hope to again. And she is an amazing mother even when she doesn't feel that way. I just need to set the ground rules and then follow them for myself and try and train her to respect my boundaries and me. Thanks again for the support.



Deejo said:


> If you have not already ... take a gander at this thread:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18347-fitness-tests.html
> 
> Your wife sounds like a pro when it comes to fitness tests.


Deejo...

You are dead nuts right on this one...she is a pro, and I have unfortunately given her all the practice she needed to become perfect at it. I have been reading that thread and am finding a lot of nuggets of wisdom to hold on to...Thanks!




MEM11363 said:


> When your wife does something hostile, like leave without a word, and then you leave and she gets hostile remind yourself of this:
> She is using the "I am mad at you BECAUSE you are mad at me"
> You aren't allowed to get mad or if you do, you are not allowed to let it impact her.
> 
> Next time she is stomping around, IGNORE her. And when she finally engages, she will likely ask you to do something for her. Just smile and say, "I don't understand why you thought it was ok to leave without a note". And go back to ignoring her. Stop trying to make peace when she is initiating hostility.
> 
> And if she repeats her demand or request, just reply with "we can discuss your request after I understand why you thought it was ok to ..."
> 
> The benefit of this is you stop doing nice things until she apologizes or explains to your satisfaction.
> 
> If you get a non-apology like "you are being to sensitive" just smile and say "why are you saying that, when you seem to be the angry person at the moment".
> Or "hmmm I am still confused why you though that was ok".
> 
> When she is angry and you stay calm, she is wearing herself out and you are not. THAT is the main determinant in a fair outcome.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MEM...

It took all of my will power yesterday to NOT ask what is wrong...As I said in the earlier post...I KNOW what is wrong...I just continued to act as if nothing was wrong, and ignored her...she gave me the silent treatment all night, and after finishing folding the last of the laundry, while I was in the bathroom, she just went to bed...No Goodnight. One of the things I do typically is bring the folded clothes basket up after she is done...I LEFT IT WHERE IT WAS...and then this morning I would normally put the washed dishes away...and I did the same, LEFT THEM THERE... I got myself out the door and did nothing for her. I wasn't mean or loud...just made my lunch as usual...I even took out the trash because it was full. But nothing more...




InTheBedIMade said:


> Let me preface this with I give horrible advice and may be too alpha for my own good.
> 
> In your situation I would issue a safe word, with little to no discussion. Today.
> I would take her tomorrow.
> 
> It may be amazingly counter intuitive but you go until you hear that word. You know what you want to do, do it. Another horrible insight into my life that nobody really needs to know is that I dont proceed until she's had an o. Can never stress that enough.
> 
> Thank god for Internet anonymity...
> 
> In the past this has greatly changed the dynamics in my relationships.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


InTheBedIMade...

That definitely seems Alpha to me...I would love to just say and do that, but my wife has some emotional issues from her past and would feel violated if I just forced myself on her...even with a safe word...In addition she has a hard time letting go and having the "O" so if I waited for that to happen each time I would never be satisfied...LOL




Blue Moon said:


> You're doing a good job of being mindful of her slights, but I feel like you're doing a little too much explaining in some situations. I would advise you to disengage more and focus on yourself, while not giving a damn about what she says or how she reacts. Even challenge her a little.



Blue Moon...

Can't fault your logic here...I still am new at this and I know I tend to try and explain too much...And I am trying to work on that. I will try and pair it down to simple statements and walk away...I know I missed a great opportunity yesterday to set my wife on edge when she yelled about me doing it wrong when I brought my duaghter through the house to the front...20/20 lets me see that I should have simply repeated her yell in the tone and same words and then simply given her a look and walked away...I just have to keep looking for these moments and remembering those steps...




AFEH said:


> Yes. He has to stop REACTING. But to stop reacting he has to first stop being AFFECTED!
> 
> 
> 
> Mike you have seriously crap personal boundaries. If you had seriously good personal boundaries your wife’s abusive behaviour would fly right over your head as though in an airliner at 33,000 ft.
> 
> 
> She just would not get right inside to the deepest parts of you like she is so easily doing.
> 
> Do you comprehend what I am saying?
> 
> You HAVE to stop letting her get inside of you. That is under YOUR CONTROL. It is not under anybody else’s control!
> 
> 
> 
> If you had good personal boundaries you would be TOTALLY UNAFFECTED by your wife’s abusive behaviour.
> 
> 
> Contemplate that for a while. Go outside look up into the sky and think on your wife’s manipulative and abusive behaviour flying right over your head up there in the clouds.



AFEH...

THANK YOU...for not sugar coating it...You are 100% RIGHT!!!! I have the worst boundaries going...and your right to call me out on it...I still REACT to what she does instead of letting it go...It's incredibly hard NOT to get pissed off about it..but I was able to calm myself yesterday and kinda laugh about it after...I looked at this as a spoiled little girl getting mad because she didn't like what I said when I called her on waking me up...and now this silent treatment and anger is just more of her blaming me for how I RE-ACTED to what SHE DID...I accept your sage wisdom with the intent there is to better me behind it. Thanks again!


----------



## Conrad

Mike,

Many times we associate boundaries with hostility.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

You can enforce boundaries dispassionately.


----------



## sinnister

Part of being a "man" is realizing that you have to make the change from within. I have no problem with you seeking advice on how to do that, but try to remember to be true to yourself as well. You may just find you change your voice, laughing habits and everything else and she'll find another excuse to be "unnatracted" to you.

That's the reality.


----------



## Halien

sinnister said:


> Part of being a "man" is realizing that you have to make the change from within. I have no problem with you seeking advice on how to do that, but try to remember to be true to yourself as well. You may just find you change your voice, laughing habits and everything else and she'll find another excuse to be "unnatracted" to you.
> 
> That's the reality.


I think that part of the solution is for her to come to realize that she also has to work to maintain the mutual attraction. Frankly, her approach to dealing with her husband, Mike, is incredibly unnattractive. One she begins to accept that something has changed, I think she needs to learn that her passive aggressive behaviors will not only not be tolerated, but need to be replace with affirming behaviors if she is to be accepted beyond just general courtesy.


----------



## MPDBlues

Conrad said:


> Mike,
> 
> Many times we associate boundaries with hostility.
> 
> Nothing could be further from the truth.
> 
> You can enforce boundaries dispassionately.


Conrad...

This is a great warning for me...Thanks again...learning how to detach the emotional portion of confronting my wife is going to be one of the hardest things I have to do. I have been reacting in anger the way she wants for a long time...I have been trying to just remind myself to find this funny and find a way to repond with whit.





sinnister said:


> Part of being a "man" is realizing that you have to make the change from within. I have no problem with you seeking advice on how to do that, but try to remember to be true to yourself as well. You may just find you change your voice, laughing habits and everything else and she'll find another excuse to be "unnatracted" to you.
> 
> That's the reality.


Sinnister...

Unfortunately I am all too aware of that possability...and have been tryinng to train my brain to accept that if this relationship is meant to be, it will be...and if not...like has been stated in numerous posts I have to be ready to lose it and use the knowledge I gain in the next phase of my life.

After her working over of me yesterday, today I'm at work and I get a text from my wife:
"There is hamburger for tonight I don't care how you cook it. Steak tips for Thursday"

To which I responded "K" That's it...and after I hit send I kicked myself for responding at all...I should have ignored it...But regardless...I will cook tonight (I usually do on Tuesday and Wednesday as my wife works til 8)...and I will continue to ignore the other things I would normally do...I will take care of our daughter and will ignore my wife and see what happens...

Thank you all again for the continued support...


----------



## Conrad

Mike,

When we're young boys, I think many of us actually learn that confrontation and anger go hand in hand.

Standing up for yourself is much more effective when they don't.


----------



## MEM2020

Mike,
Excellent control. 

The pace at which you have grasped all this is great. I live with a tigress and so have learned a style that is effective for me/us. Humor is always best to resolve conflicts *as they happen*. When that isn't possible there are some universally useful phrases when your partner is breaching boundaries.

My goal is never to be the "irresistable force". 

IMO boundary enforcement is ALL ABOUT being the "immovable object" when need be. The difference between those two is huge. 

In the former case I "tell you" what your behavior is. And then I try to "sell you" on why I believe that. But I cannot MAKE YOU buy anything. And by making myself salesman, I am totally vulnerable to you refusing to buy - regardless of your reasons. For example: 
Husband: It was really rude when you...
Wife: I disagree
Husband: Long explanation of why it was really rude
Wife: That isn't what happened
Husband: Getting more agitated and less able to think logically AND ultimately more fatigued 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The immovable object:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The entire premise of this is that your spouse is approaching you. This doesn't work if you approach them. If you are a good H - very likely there is a long list of acts of service (that are discretionary - just like you mentioned above) that you can stop doing. And you SHOULD stop them if you are getting kicked. When asked to do something you don't sell - you "become" the buyer. 

Example: 
W: I need you to do "...xyz..."
H: (laughing and then pause and tilt your head in a "you have got to be kidding" way) Is that your idea of an apology
W: Pretending that there was no fight, there was no multi-day test of emotional endurance: "what?" 
H: (big smile nice try (go back to what you were doing)
W: (louder - angrier) "I am getting kind of sick of this. So are you just not talking to me anymore"
H: (calm) "The next step is either you convince me that your behavior the other day was justified OR you apologize for it. Either is fine". 
W: Glaring 
H: RESISTING THE URGE TO ENGAGE IN NERVOUS TALKING - NOT SAYING ANYTHING
W: I don't understand what you think I did wrong 
H: (refusing to sell his case - continues to ask questions - smiling in disbelief): Are you saying you really don't know why we haven't been talking for the last "hours/days"?
W: Angrily - "fine - don't help me"

Limit your interaction to questions when your W is being hostile/angry/combative. And accept that she is going to be VERY mad for a while until you rebalance things. She is not used to you standing up for yourself. This is like ripping off a giant band-aid. Best done as quickly as she can adjust to a fair balance. 

You can let her initiate sex but don't let her tease you and not follow through. Do NOT let her do that, it is abusive. 



MPDBlues said:


> Lovelygirl...
> 
> I appreciate your response, for the support as to her walking all over me...But I let that happen and she needs to learn I won't let it happen any more. Although she may be "B!tchy" I have realized that it stems from my ignorance of how to deal with her. I don't think my wife is a b!tch, I truly know she is a wonderful, caring, and loving woman...I have seen that before from her and hope to again. And she is an amazing mother even when she doesn't feel that way. I just need to set the ground rules and then follow them for myself and try and train her to respect my boundaries and me. Thanks again for the support.
> 
> 
> 
> Deejo...
> 
> You are dead nuts right on this one...she is a pro, and I have unfortunately given her all the practice she needed to become perfect at it. I have been reading that thread and am finding a lot of nuggets of wisdom to hold on to...Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEM...
> 
> It took all of my will power yesterday to NOT ask what is wrong...As I said in the earlier post...I KNOW what is wrong...I just continued to act as if nothing was wrong, and ignored her...she gave me the silent treatment all night, and after finishing folding the last of the laundry, while I was in the bathroom, she just went to bed...No Goodnight. One of the things I do typically is bring the folded clothes basket up after she is done...I LEFT IT WHERE IT WAS...and then this morning I would normally put the washed dishes away...and I did the same, LEFT THEM THERE... I got myself out the door and did nothing for her. I wasn't mean or loud...just made my lunch as usual...I even took out the trash because it was full. But nothing more...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> InTheBedIMade...
> 
> That definitely seems Alpha to me...I would love to just say and do that, but my wife has some emotional issues from her past and would feel violated if I just forced myself on her...even with a safe word...In addition she has a hard time letting go and having the "O" so if I waited for that to happen each time I would never be satisfied...LOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Blue Moon...
> 
> Can't fault your logic here...I still am new at this and I know I tend to try and explain too much...And I am trying to work on that. I will try and pair it down to simple statements and walk away...I know I missed a great opportunity yesterday to set my wife on edge when she yelled about me doing it wrong when I brought my duaghter through the house to the front...20/20 lets me see that I should have simply repeated her yell in the tone and same words and then simply given her a look and walked away...I just have to keep looking for these moments and remembering those steps...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AFEH...
> 
> THANK YOU...for not sugar coating it...You are 100% RIGHT!!!! I have the worst boundaries going...and your right to call me out on it...I still REACT to what she does instead of letting it go...It's incredibly hard NOT to get pissed off about it..but I was able to calm myself yesterday and kinda laugh about it after...I looked at this as a spoiled little girl getting mad because she didn't like what I said when I called her on waking me up...and now this silent treatment and anger is just more of her blaming me for how I RE-ACTED to what SHE DID...I accept your sage wisdom with the intent there is to better me behind it. Thanks again!


----------



## Tall Average Guy

MEM11363 said:


> Mike,
> Excellent control.
> 
> The pace at which you have grasped all this is great. I live with a tigress and so have learned a style that is effective for me/us. Humor is always best to resolve conflicts *as they happen*. When that isn't possible there are some universally useful phrases when your partner is breaching boundaries.
> 
> My goal is never to be the "irresistable force".
> 
> IMO boundary enforcement is ALL ABOUT being the "immovable object" when need be. The difference between those two is huge.
> 
> In the former case I "tell you" what your behavior is. And then I try to "sell you" on why I believe that. But I cannot MAKE YOU buy anything. And by making myself salesman, I am totally vulnerable to you refusing to buy - regardless of your reasons. For example:
> Husband: It was really rude when you...
> Wife: I disagree
> Husband: Long explanation of why it was really rude
> Wife: That isn't what happened
> Husband: Getting more agitated and less able to think logically AND ultimately more fatigued
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The immovable object:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The entire premise of this is that your spouse is approaching you. This doesn't work if you approach them. If you are a good H - very likely there is a long list of acts of service (that are discretionary - just like you mentioned above) that you can stop doing. And you SHOULD stop them if you are getting kicked. When asked to do something you don't sell - you "become" the buyer.
> 
> Example:
> W: I need you to do "...xyz..."
> H: (laughing and then pause and tilt your head in a "you have got to be kidding" way) Is that your idea of an apology
> W: Pretending that there was no fight, there was no multi-day test of emotional endurance: "what?"
> H: (big smile nice try (go back to what you were doing)
> W: (louder - angrier) "I am getting kind of sick of this. So are you just not talking to me anymore"
> H: (calm) "The next step is either you convince me that your behavior the other day was justified OR you apologize for it. Either is fine".
> W: Glaring
> H: RESISTING THE URGE TO ENGAGE IN NERVOUS TALKING - NOT SAYING ANYTHING
> W: I don't understand what you think I did wrong
> H: (refusing to sell his case - continues to ask questions - smiling in disbelief): Are you saying you really don't know why we haven't been talking for the last "hours/days"?
> W: Angrily - "fine - don't help me"
> 
> Limit your interaction to questions when your W is being hostile/angry/combative. And accept that she is going to be VERY mad for a while until you rebalance things. She is not used to you standing up for yourself. This is like ripping off a giant band-aid. Best done as quickly as she can adjust to a fair balance.
> 
> You can let her initiate sex but don't let her tease you and not follow through. Do NOT let her do that, it is abusive.


Further to MEM's comment, note that many women do not like when a man initiates conversation about feelings and emotions. While they want their man to be able to open up a bit when they approach him, they do not want him to repeatedly raise these issues or initiate these discussions. These women do not view raising these issues as "manly" and may help lose some attraction.

Letting her come to you may help avoid this.


----------



## Conrad

She will ask when she is prepared to listen.


----------



## AFEH

MPDBlues said:


> Conrad...
> 
> This is a great warning for me...Thanks again...learning how to detach the emotional portion of confronting my wife is going to be one of the hardest things I have to do. I have been reacting in anger the way she wants for a long time...I have been trying to just remind myself to find this funny and find a way to repond with whit.


You wife is hurting you. Your anger rises out of and is a direct result of the pain she causes you.


If she didn’t hurt you, you wouldn’t feel pain and therefore you wouldn’t get angry.


You have what I think on as a man’s anger. It’s an active anger that blows and then is over quickly, done and forgotten. At least as far as you are concerned but it does affect those around you.


Thing is your wife KNOWS she is hurting you. And she does it DELIBERATELY. It took me a very long while to get that with my wife. Decades. I didn’t believe such things were possible in a marriage, or anywhere else. I was so naive.




I think you are well on your way to stopping dancing to her dysfunctional tunes. Well on your way to not being her puppet on a string.


----------



## rider

Damn you all can type! Took me an hour to read this thing.

Been on a similar path myself and my words of wisdom are thus:

1 - Couch to 5k (c25k) look it up on runners forums, ask any fitness coach, you want to lose weight, run! You want confidence, Exercise!

2 - For me, turning down the thermostat, no more mister nice guy, etc, all distill down to: 
-Be confident
-Be rational 
-Get your happiness from life, not wife

3 - I learned this from a parenting book. People always know when they screw up badly, never explain what they did wrong. If you have to, explain your reaction to it.

Keep at it, we are all in this together.


----------



## MPDBlues

Ok...so wife has been home for 2+hrs...we haven't talked to each other yet...I'm laughing at the TV, at my daughter, but haven't said a word to her yet...not even a hello...this is killing me! Lol

And, to top off the lost day, she comes in with her already short hair...A LOT shorter. Looking at this from a good place for once I see it for what it is...she and I has a big fight about this a while ago, when I got mad at her for cutting it short even though I told her I didn't like it short on her. Classic example of her doing something deliberately to hurt me because she is mad that I am mad, and I think she is freaked that I am not responding how I used to, by saying I'M SORRY, even though I'm the one who's been wronged. NOT THIS TIME!!! Although I'm hurt, I'm not angry, because I see what she is doing clear as day. I am now going to bed...no goodnight, just going to bed...see you ask tomorrow with what, if anything happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Mike,
You are way better at this than you initially claimed. Contrast warfare is very powerful. Happy friendly and nice to everyone else. Polite, reserved and minimal in your interactions with her. Don't even acknowledge the hair. In the overall scheme of things:
It doesn't matter and
It is an area where she can legitimately claim it is totally her call





MPDBlues said:


> Ok...so wife has been home for 2+hrs...we haven't talked to each other yet...I'm laughing at the TV, at my daughter, but haven't said a word to her yet...not even a hello...this is killing me! Lol
> 
> And, to top off the lost day, she comes in with her already short hair...A LOT shorter. Looking at this from a good place for once I see it for what it is...she and I has a big fight about this a while ago, when I got mad at her for cutting it short even though I told her I didn't like it short on her. Classic example of her doing something deliberately to hurt me because she is mad that I am mad, and I think she is freaked that I am not responding how I used to, by saying I'M SORRY, even though I'm the one who's been wronged. NOT THIS TIME!!! Although I'm hurt, I'm not angry, because I see what she is doing clear as day. I am now going to bed...no goodnight, just going to bed...see you ask tomorrow with what, if anything happens.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

MEM11363 said:


> Mike,
> You are way better at this than you initially claimed. Contrast warfare is very powerful. Happy friendly and nice to everyone else. Polite, reserved and minimal in your interactions with her. Don't even acknowledge the hair. In the overall scheme of things:
> It doesn't matter and
> It is an area where she can legitimately claim it is totally her call
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, but what a way for his wife to live. Doing or not doing things out of spite, malice, ill will, nastiness and even malevolence for her husband. What a dysfunctional way to be motivated!


The root cause of her behaviour will be her bitterness and resentment. It’s expression is in her passive aggression, the result is/was Mike’s pain and anger.


You’re doing well Mike. The more disconnected and distant from your wife you become the stronger you will feel and the more clearly she will be revealed to you. It’s a real pity these things happen in marriages.


----------



## AFEH

Someone should design some software such that the men who come here can test their wife for levels of bitterness, resentment and passive aggression!


Because until that’s cured all other “self work and improvement” is just treating the symptoms and NOT the causes of the problems in their marriage.


Sure the man will become a better man but his wife will still be that bitter, resentful and passive aggressive woman. And he’ll either have to learn to live with it or if finds he no longer can, leave her.


----------



## MPDBlues

Thanks for the encouragement guys...I hate to admit this but feel it's only fair to be as honest with you as I can, Is it wrong that I spent the night with my heart pounding in my chest like I was at the apex of the first drop on the roller coaster from the front car? Even as I played all calm on the outside, inside I was in fear of what was to come...I just tried to keep repeating to myself "I can do this, I can handle this" but that feeling just sucked. I realized that she has me well trained to fear making her mad, which is why I have always been the one to try and make it better by apologizing even if I was the one wronged...heady stuff to have to face about myself in such a short time. Wierdly, although I am not looking forward to another day of this silent bullsh!t, I know I have to keep it going. As I was fallng asleep last night the last thing I remember thinking was "If you keep poking a sleeping grizzly bear, it's eventually going to wake up!" I feel that a part of me has awoken, and I'm already aware of who has been poking me the whole time. I still don't know how this will all unfold, she is a pro at turning things around on me, but I will try like hell to keep myself calm and stick to questions, not try to explain anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AFEH

MPDBlues said:


> Thanks for the encouragement guys...I hate to admit this but feel it's only fair to be as honest with you as I can, Is it wrong that I spent the night with my heart pounding in my chest like I was at the apex of the first drop on the roller coaster from the front car? Even as I played all calm on the outside, inside I was in fear of what was to come...I just tried to keep repeating to myself "I can do this, I can handle this" but that feeling just sucked. I realized that she has me well trained to fear making her mad, which is why I have always been the one to try and make it better by apologizing even if I was the one wronged...heady stuff to have to face about myself in such a short time. Wierdly, although I am not looking forward to another day of this silent bullsh!t, I know I have to keep it going. As I was fallng asleep last night the last thing I remember thinking was "If you keep poking a sleeping grizzly bear, it's eventually going to wake up!" I feel that a part of me has awoken, and I'm already aware of who has been poking me the whole time. I still don't know how this will all unfold, she is a pro at turning things around on me, but I will try like hell to keep myself calm and stick to questions, not try to explain anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




You really do need to read that Awareness book.

In essence you are right in the middle of your ego. So much so you just don’t know another place, another perspective exists. Inside your ego is where you live and experience all your fears, worries and anxieties. These are the things that have a tremendous impact on our physiological being, our body and how it works. Your pounding heart is a DIRECT result of your negative emotions.

There are two sides to us. The ME and the I. Me is where our ego is, where we experience the joys and sadness of our day to day lives. But these things are transitory, they come and go. At one time ME was a baby and then a teenager and then a father and married man.


But I was and has always been there. It’s our I that goes through the transitions, that evolves as time goes by.

You need to be able to see your I. When you are observing yourself from your I’s perspective you release yourself from your ego. And as you do that peace and harmony enters you as your fears and anxiety leaves and then your heart rate goes down and your heart stops pounding.

And because of that, because you have now learnt to observe your ego (ME) at work you begin to gain a much clearer picture and understanding of not just yourself but your wife as well.


Read that book. It’s far better for you than any anxiety reducing or sleep inducing drugs. And you’ll learn things that will last you a lifetime.


----------



## Halien

MPDBlues said:


> Thanks for the encouragement guys...I hate to admit this but feel it's only fair to be as honest with you as I can, Is it wrong that I spent the night with my heart pounding in my chest like I was at the apex of the first drop on the roller coaster from the front car? Even as I played all calm on the outside, inside I was in fear of what was to come...I just tried to keep repeating to myself "I can do this, I can handle this" but that feeling just sucked. I realized that she has me well trained to fear making her mad, which is why I have always been the one to try and make it better by apologizing even if I was the one wronged...heady stuff to have to face about myself in such a short time. Wierdly, although I am not looking forward to another day of this silent bullsh!t, I know I have to keep it going. As I was fallng asleep last night the last thing I remember thinking was "If you keep poking a sleeping grizzly bear, it's eventually going to wake up!" I feel that a part of me has awoken, and I'm already aware of who has been poking me the whole time. I still don't know how this will all unfold, she is a pro at turning things around on me, but I will try like hell to keep myself calm and stick to questions, not try to explain anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If the shorter hair is as deliberate as you say it is, I'm not sure that I could've resisted calling her out for it, given how much she expects to be treated when roles are reversed. I'd have to say something like, "Given how the last short haircut turned out, don't you think that this is behaving pretty childish and immature? Couldn't you just get it over by pitching a temper tantrum and having the sandbox and toys to yourself?"

But you have to find that inner peace and confidence. Find the way to believe in yourself, and that you are a good man who deserves the same level of respect that you pay forward. Some suggested exercise. There are many ways to get there. Believe me, she'll notice. Especially if you pursue these new areas of personal growth when she is aware of them. Take stock in who you are, and her passive aggressive games will become nothing more than childish games from one who has adopted the mindset of a toddler.


----------



## MPDBlues

AFEH said:


> You really do need to read that Awareness book.
> 
> In essence you are right in the middle of your ego. So much so you just don’t know another place, another perspective exists. Inside your ego is where you live and experience all your fears, worries and anxieties. These are the things that have a tremendous impact on our physiological being, our body and how it works. Your pounding heart is a DIRECT result of your negative emotions.
> 
> There are two sides to us. The ME and the I. Me is where our ego is, where we experience the joys and sadness of our day to day lives. But these things are transitory, they come and go. At one time ME was a baby and then a teenager and then a father and married man.
> 
> 
> But I was and has always been there. It’s our I that goes through the transitions, that evolves as time goes by.
> 
> You need to be able to see your I. When you are observing yourself from your I’s perspective you release yourself from your ego. And as you do that peace and harmony enters you as your fears and anxiety leaves and then your heart rate goes down and your heart stops pounding.
> 
> And because of that, because you have now learnt to observe your ego (ME) at work you begin to gain a much clearer picture and understanding of not just yourself but your wife as well.
> 
> 
> Read that book. It’s far better for you than any anxiety reducing or sleep inducing drugs. And you’ll learn things that will last you a lifetime.


AFEH...

Right after I saw your post I bought the book and will start reading it today...Gotta love kindle on your Droid...Immediate access...I hope that I will have a clearer picture of what you are saying once I read this book...I have been reading the NMMNG and I find some things applicable and others not so much...but just entered the relationship section so should be interesting to see where this takes me.




Halien said:


> If the shorter hair is as deliberate as you say it is, I'm not sure that I could've resisted calling her out for it, given how much she expects to be treated when roles are reversed. I'd have to say something like, "Given how the last short haircut turned out, don't you think that this is behaving pretty childish and immature? Couldn't you just get it over by pitching a temper tantrum and having the sandbox and toys to yourself?"
> 
> But you have to find that inner peace and confidence. Find the way to believe in yourself, and that you are a good man who deserves the same level of respect that you pay forward. Some suggested exercise. There are many ways to get there. Believe me, she'll notice. Especially if you pursue these new areas of personal growth when she is aware of them. Take stock in who you are, and her passive aggressive games will become nothing more than childish games from one who has adopted the mindset of a toddler.




Halien...

Thanks, I truly appreciate your response...Believe me I DID want to call her out right away, and I WILL address that in the future, but I felt that right now I should keep a hold of my emotions and stick to the one issue I want resolved. Quite simply, I want her to finally see that I am WILLING (and this is a battle of will) to keep silent, courteously so without anger, but silent until she addresses her leaving the other day and not leaving a note or any info...

The more I have thought about this, the more I am seeing from her perspective...I think when this comes to a head she will call me out on being "mean" to her when I told her that her actions at 2 in the morning were not ideal and that is was unacceptable, (which they weren't, and my objections were stated calmly and without anger) 
She will then tell me that she went to the store to be nice because I was working hard and she thought she would do me a favor (I know this is not the reality of the situation) I want her to see that I can see through to what she really did which was get mad because I stood up for myself and deliberately left without telling me, and that she is now angry at me for doing what she did, found me gone with no note, and had to deal with the groceries herself, she now feels justified in her anger towards me. but it all comes back to her acting like a child and saying "I'll show him"

All she needs to do is realize and apologize for what SHE did to me...I WILL NO LONGER apologize when I did NOTHING WRONG.


----------



## MEM2020

Mike,
With regard to her hair: The best way to teach her a lesson is to ignore it. When you respond aggressively (and I know that you have refrained from doing so) to a deliberate act of emotional manipulation by your partner, the very act of responding is a step back. 

In the middle of a real conflict over disrespectful behavior, the hair cut was a brilliant move on her part. It was intended to work like a magicians prop - and distract you from the real issue. 

When my W slips into "endurance" mode conflict can become days of non-interaction. When that happens I limit myself to smiliing at her when I come in/leave. We talk when she is ready to talk. 




MPDBlues said:


> AFEH...
> 
> Right after I saw your post I bought the book and will start reading it today...Gotta love kindle on your Droid...Immediate access...I hope that I will have a clearer picture of what you are saying once I read this book...I have been reading the NMMNG and I find some things applicable and others not so much...but just entered the relationship section so should be interesting to see where this takes me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Halien...
> 
> Thanks, I truly appreciate your response...Believe me I DID want to call her out right away, and I WILL address that in the future, but I felt that right now I should keep a hold of my emotions and stick to the one issue I want resolved. Quite simply, I want her to finally see that I am WILLING (and this is a battle of will) to keep silent, courteously so without anger, but silent until she addresses her leaving the other day and not leaving a note or any info...
> 
> The more I have thought about this, the more I am seeing from her perspective...I think when this comes to a head she will call me out on being "mean" to her when I told her that her actions at 2 in the morning were not ideal and that is was unacceptable, (which they weren't, and my objections were stated calmly and without anger)
> She will then tell me that she went to the store to be nice because I was working hard and she thought she would do me a favor (I know this is not the reality of the situation) I want her to see that I can see through to what she really did which was get mad because I stood up for myself and deliberately left without telling me, and that she is now angry at me for doing what she did, found me gone with no note, and had to deal with the groceries herself, she now feels justified in her anger towards me. but it all comes back to her acting like a child and saying "I'll show him"
> 
> All she needs to do is realize and apologize for what SHE did to me...I WILL NO LONGER apologize when I did NOTHING WRONG.


----------



## MPDBlues

MEM11363 said:


> Mike,
> With regard to her hair: The best way to teach her a lesson is to ignore it. When you respond aggressively (and I know that you have refrained from doing so) to a deliberate act of emotional manipulation by your partner, the very act of responding is a step back.
> 
> In the middle of a real conflict over disrespectful behavior, the hair cut was a brilliant move on her part. It was intended to work like a magicians prop - and distract you from the real issue.
> 
> When my W slips into "endurance" mode conflict can become days of non-interaction. When that happens I limit myself to smiliing at her when I come in/leave. We talk when she is ready to talk.


MEM...

Thank you, thank you, thank you, for validating my response...I questioned myself a bit, but after thinking it through I felt I did the right thing by just laughing to myself and ignoring it as a childish act on her part...talking to a friend at work this morning, (he is a guys guy, had a dad to raise him and 3 brothers) he said he would simply ignore it, both when it happened and going forward, wouldn't even bring it up after the first conflict was resolved. I shall continue this silent "battle of will" until SHE decides she wants to talk, because I know that this is the first step I HAVE to take in order to start gaining back her respect. I am now feeling very confident with my actions to this point...

I have to admit that I wasn't totally truthful in my earlier post about having NO interaction with my wife last night...I tried to be very simple, I did not look at her very much...but when she got herself some dinner, (and promptly went into the living room to eat, since I was in the kitchen...lol) I nicely pointed out that everything was in the fridge on the second shelf...I interacted through my daughter (who is currently potty training) by telling her to tell Mommy about how good she was, to get her stars for doing potty. My daughter then asked about having chocolate dipped strawberries, which she said mommy told her they could make...My wife and daughter went into the kitchen and made them together (I was a little hard pressed not to go in and watch) My daughter then came into the living room where I was sitting and said that mommy gave "us" strawberries, one for her and one for me. I let my daughter eat hers and have a bite off of mine before she went to bed. I then waited until my wife came back down...was on her computer ignoring me...and casually got up with the plate, ate the strawberry as I went into the kitchen with a "yumm" and deposited the plate in the sink. I wasn't mean in any way, but I also didn't thank her for it. Is it wrong that that felt a little good to do??


----------



## MEM2020

Mike,
Your friends advice is good. I really like leaving the hair alone because it is in a gray area since she can legitimately claim she likes it better that way, and it is after all her hair. 

My approach to conflict goes like this. I only defend myself in gray zone situations. I do not initiate aggression in them. If we are going to have conflict, serious take it to the wall conflict, I am going to carefully select the time and the place. 

I think it was courteous to tell your wife where dinner was. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. The only tiny tweak I would suggest is when she offered an olive branch of a strawberry through your daughter, you absolutely could have said "thank you for the strawberry". This is simply accepting an act of kindness, offered in the midst of conflict. It does not show weakness. As for how you did handle the strawberry, that is also a judgment call and might have been the right call. 

Stay the course. It is good for you to learn how to evaluate your own behavior without regard to how she feels about it. And it is good for you to know that a few days of silent deadlock won't hurt you much less kill you. 

If she hasn't thawed by Thursday, make plans to take your daughter somewhere for the day Saturday - JUST the two of you. And if your wife objects, let her have your daughter, and you go spend the day with friends. No anger though. Just minimizing your time in her company. Don't say it - just do it. 






MPDBlues said:


> MEM...
> 
> Thank you, thank you, thank you, for validating my response...I questioned myself a bit, but after thinking it through I felt I did the right thing by just laughing to myself and ignoring it as a childish act on her part...talking to a friend at work this morning, (he is a guys guy, had a dad to raise him and 3 brothers) he said he would simply ignore it, both when it happened and going forward, wouldn't even bring it up after the first conflict was resolved. I shall continue this silent "battle of will" until SHE decides she wants to talk, because I know that this is the first step I HAVE to take in order to start gaining back her respect. I am now feeling very confident with my actions to this point...
> 
> I have to admit that I wasn't totally truthful in my earlier post about having NO interaction with my wife last night...I tried to be very simple, I did not look at her very much...but when she got herself some dinner, (and promptly went into the living room to eat, since I was in the kitchen...lol) I nicely pointed out that everything was in the fridge on the second shelf...I interacted through my daughter (who is currently potty training) by telling her to tell Mommy about how good she was, to get her stars for doing potty. My daughter then asked about having chocolate dipped strawberries, which she said mommy told her they could make...My wife and daughter went into the kitchen and made them together (I was a little hard pressed not to go in and watch) My daughter then came into the living room where I was sitting and said that mommy gave "us" strawberries, one for her and one for me. I let my daughter eat hers and have a bite off of mine before she went to bed. I then waited until my wife came back down...was on her computer ignoring me...and casually got up with the plate, ate the strawberry as I went into the kitchen with a "yumm" and deposited the plate in the sink. I wasn't mean in any way, but I also didn't thank her for it. Is it wrong that that felt a little good to do??


----------



## MPDBlues

MEM...

It was a long night last night, and I slept poorly, I gave up trying to sleep at about 4:30, and have been reading Awareness until now. Thanks AFEH...it's really fast paced, I often need to slow down and re-read parts and think on what he says, his humor is great, it's making me look at things a lot differently.

Your responses, and understanding, a well as advice are truly appreciated and humbling at times. Like I said, long night of trying to be quiet, but not mean. My wife came home and was dead to me...no looks even. I now think it might be more than few days before she does talk. However, tonight, no pounding heart, I felt calmer, more self-assured about the process. She was still loving and giving with my daughter, as was I, which I was happy to see. I was even, through my daughter, offered another strawberry, which I declined with a "Thank you, but daddy had a lot of dinner, and is full, but that was very nice", stated just loudly enough to be heard by my wife in the kitchen. Once my daughter was asleep, and my wife was silently playing at her computer, I decided to try something...I picked a show from the DVR, that we like to watch "together" (So you think you can dance, go ahead knock me, but I like it!) and started watching it...she could see the TV as well from where she was. I was enjoying it, as if it were any normal night, not the frosty one it was...and about 30 minutes in, she just got up and went upstairs. I didn't stop, and didn't react, just kept watching...then during a commercial as I was fast forwarding...in the quiet, I could hear her crying...I know that like you said before, thats probably a good thing, but it was hard to hear... I just went back to watching and eventually came to bed. I could tell she wasn't asleep when I came in the room, I just lowered the temp on the AC a bit, and got into bed. It was like I could feel her looking at me, moving around a bit, settling in, I knew when she was facing me, and she was asleep in a few minutes after that. Maybe I'm just projecting, but I would swear she was waiting to make sure that I still came to our bed before she went to sleep...I don't know, probably just wishful thinking. 
Mike
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Halien

MPDBlues said:


> MEM...
> 
> It was a long night last night, and I slept poorly, I gave up trying to sleep at about 4:30, and have been reading Awareness until now. Thanks AFEH...it's really fast paced, I often need to slow down and re-read parts and think on what he says, his humor is great, it's making me look at things a lot differently.
> 
> Your responses, and understanding, a well as advice are truly appreciated and humbling at times. Like I said, long night of trying to be quiet, but not mean. My wife came home and was dead to me...no looks even. I now think it might be more than few days before she does talk. However, tonight, no pounding heart, I felt calmer, more self-assured about the process. She was still loving and giving with my daughter, as was I, which I was happy to see. I was even, through my daughter, offered another strawberry, which I declined with a "Thank you, but daddy had a lot of dinner, and is full, but that was very nice", stated just loudly enough to be heard by my wife in the kitchen. Once my daughter was asleep, and my wife was silently playing at her computer, I decided to try something...I picked a show from the DVR, that we like to watch "together" (So you think you can dance, go ahead knock me, but I like it!) and started watching it...she could see the TV as well from where she was. I was enjoying it, as if it were any normal night, not the frosty one it was...and about 30 minutes in, she just got up and went upstairs. I didn't stop, and didn't react, just kept watching...then during a commercial as I was fast forwarding...in the quiet, I could hear her crying...I know that like you said before, thats probably a good thing, but it was hard to hear... I just went back to watching and eventually came to bed. I could tell she wasn't asleep when I came in the room, I just lowered the temp on the AC a bit, and got into bed. It was like I could feel her looking at me, moving around a bit, settling in, I knew when she was facing me, and she was asleep in a few minutes after that. Maybe I'm just projecting, but I would swear she was waiting to make sure that I still came to our bed before she went to sleep...I don't know, probably just wishful thinking.
> Mike
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My opinion on how to frame a situation and respond often differs from others, yet I can't help but also agree with their responses. Not easy to get my meaning, I guess. Mem makes a great distinction by saying that he draws the line on avoiding in "gray area" issues. This points to my concern - personally, I find it hard to distinguish between avoiding and passive agressive behavior sometimes. Often, avoiding IS the right choice, or even apologizing to end a dispute that really doeasn't mean anything in the scheme of things, compared to the importance of a happy marriage. What I'm getting at is that I prefer to be very deliberate when I'm making a drastic change regarding some aspect of the marriage. My approach is to "say what you will do, then do it".

I think your goal is to find a balance between loving your wife, and all it implies about seeking her happiness, while maintaining healthy personal boundaries in how you are treated. Maybe its because my wife is bipolar, but I only fear that leaving your wife completely in the dark concerning your actions leaves her open to wild conjecture. In fact, if I were her, with a guilty awareness of some of the ways that I hurt you in the past, I'd be pretty sure that your actions are simply nothing more than cutting the ties to step out of the relationship you two once had. I'm not afraid to tell my wife that I love her so much that it hurts, but her love is also hurting me sometimes. 

I'm embarrassed to say that I have enough alpha in me that it is pretty common for me to start out a new business relationship by quickly following an unintended sleight by the other person with a response that leaves a pretty hefty sting. The challenge for me is to keep such behaviors out of my marriage. I mention this because I may be looking at your responses based on actions from my past that I've since regretted. Really, you are the one who has your finger on the pulse of your marriage. I at least wanted to throw out an alternate way of looking at the situation, though.


----------



## AFEH

Mike, your wife crying more likely indicates very deep feelings about you and the situation you are both in. You know, when we meet and later get married what we actually do is take into our marriage the ways our parents behaved in their marriage.

But sometimes that just doesn’t work and causes great problems that can seem insurmountable. I think we all want a “Healthy and Happy Marriage” but we just don’t know how to get it, what it’s based on, what to believe in, what rules to follow and how to behave.

One of the things I didn’t find out about until after I’d separated from my wife is The Marriage Course - Explore Alpha Marriage Course | Alpha USA. (Nothing whatsoever to do with alpha spoken elsewhere here!)

Take a look at the modules/topics

Session Topics

1. Building Strong Foundations – This session helps couples to look at their lifestyle and its effect upon their marriage, and to discover more about each other’s needs and desires – particularly on an emotional level.

2. The Art of Communication – Listening is a vital skill for a strong marriage. In this session couples practise communicating their feelings and listening effectively to one another.

3. Resolving Conflict – In this session we look at how couples can increase their intimacy by expressing appreciation to each other, recognising their differences, learning to negotiate disagreements and praying for each other (if they feel comfortable doing so).

4. The Power of Forgiveness – This session addresses the ways we will inevitably have hurt each other and how to resolve these so we don’t create a backlog of anger and resentment. We look at the process of healing through identifying the hurt, saying sorry and forgiving.

5. The Impact of Family – Past and Present – This session focuses on helping couples to recognise how their family background affects the way they relate to each other. They also consider how to build a good and healthy relationship with their parents, in-laws and wider family, and how hurt from childhood can be healed.

6. Good Sex – Sexual intimacy needs to be worked at and developed. It isn’t just the icing on the cake; it’s a vital ingredient of the cake itself. In this session couples are encouraged to talk about their sexual relationship and to recognise where they need to make changes.

7. Love in Action – This session looks at five ways of expressing love – through words, time, touch, presents and actions. Couples discover which expression of love is most important for their partner and how to put this into practice.



Stunning isn’t it? These people know what they’re about. Find out where they’re run in your area and ask your wife to join you.


----------



## AFEH

MPDBlues said:


> MEM...
> 
> It was a long night last night, and I slept poorly, I gave up trying to sleep at about 4:30, and have been reading Awareness until now. Thanks AFEH...it's really fast paced, I often need to slow down and re-read parts and think on what he says, his humor is great, it's making me look at things a lot differently.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_“Don't ask the world to change....you change first.” 
― Anthony de Mello, Awareness_
It’s amazing how much the world changes as we change and see it through different eyes!


I more or less live by this one ….

_“The one who would be constant in happiness must frequently change.” 
― Anthony de Mello, Awareness_


You’re a Good Man Mike, it comes out in your words. Your wife wont want to lose you.


----------



## Relationship Coach

MPDBlues said:


> I know I am running on and on, and I probably will for a while, I won't apologize for that because I need to get this out and find the answers before I explode and cause more damage then good.


You should NOT be apologizing for this. My guess is you apologize for way too much in life. Stop it. Don't apologize for being you. Don't apologize for being here, now. Don't apologize for being in a place where you feel like you've made mistakes or you need to improve. 

You should probably stop apologizing to your wife for the time being, especially if it has anything to do with your personal growth and happiness. Don't EVER apologize unless you are truly and deeply sorry for something you have done.


----------



## MPDBlues

Halien...

I have in the past done the whole "fine , I'M sorry" for the small stuff to start, and then it became bigger stuff and easier than fighting which is why I feel I am where I am in this relationship now. 
I will probably do that again in the future for the small things but for now I know that I have to curb any thoughts of apologizing unless like RC stated "I am truly and deeply sorry for what I've done" 
I really am hoping to find that "Balance" you talked about because I want my relationship with my wife to BE balanced. I am not looking to become some kind of domineering jerk, I am hoping to continue to be a loving husband who is respected and loved in return equally.

AFEH...

You amaze me with the things you have brought to my attention...I know it must have been a hard road for you in the past, and to be this generous to a complete stranger truly shows the quality of man that you are...Thank you again for the info, I will definitely be looking into a local course for the both of us in the future.

Relationship Coach...

Thank you for the nudge, it is appreciated...and for seeing the truth of me from just my posts...I have always been quick to apologize for many things throughout my life, and from the things I have been learning with everyones help here and the posts they have laid down before me, I have truly begun a change in myself for the better. I know in my heart that I won't be the same man I have been ever again. I Will BE BETTER...I know I have a long journey ahead of me and many steps to take, but look forward to sharing with the wonderful people I have only so briefly been introduced to here...

Well......I thought my wife MIGHT be ready to talk today. I made a pot of coffee this morning and she texted me "Thanks for the coffee" to which I simply responded "Sure" like it was no big deal...and really it wasn't. I didn't do it for her, but was happy to share it with her. 

Later in the day she contacted me again, via Email about a Dentist I was looking for, HER " Is this the one, and do you want to try him" ME "Yes & yes" And the final thing that had me thinking we MIGHT talk was the fact that she texted me when leaving the house "Heading to the mall for G's Reward" I simply responded "K"

Based on these things I thought maybe she had owned up to her being disrespectful the other day.....I WAS WRONG...

I got home, cooked dinner, ate by myself, (I wasn't going to be a fool and wait for her). She finally gets home with my daughter around 8:40...and it's ARCTIC CHILL WIFEY still...no look, no talk, and now just like last night, just goes off to bed a few minutes ago...

I'm not mad, really I'm not, I am throughly frustrated...and quite a bit disappointed though. I really thought she could be more mature than this. I truly am beginning to wonder just how long I am going to have to wait for an apology? I already have plans for this weekend on Saturday night, I did before this happened and plan on going to a friends house for a party... I had hoped to bring my wife and daughter, but at this point I am almost certain I will be going alone. 

Do I keep waiting it out, or do I push the issue and confront her on this? I mean I knew she was stubborn but 3+ days and she still has a serious layer of frost....My gut says, be the man...if it goes a month then so be it...I will keep acting like nothing is wrong, I just won't directly interact with her. Your thought would be appreciated

Mike


----------



## MEM2020

Mike,
She is also confused. 
- She wants to make up. 
- She doesn't want to give up being in total control of the house because like a bad habit, she is now addicted to it.
- She wants to respect you, knows that is important
- She doesn't want to give up being in control of the house because like a bad habit, it is addictive
- She has NO IDEA why you are suddenly acting completely different, and so she keeps doing little things for you, hoping you will somehow approach her to "make up" at which point she is likely going to tell you that you were totally wrong and need to beg forgiveness. 

Stay the course. Please and thank you remain on the menu. Go to the party yourself Saturday. 






MPDBlues said:


> Halien...
> 
> I have in the past done the whole "fine , I'M sorry" for the small stuff to start, and then it became bigger stuff and easier than fighting which is why I feel I am where I am in this relationship now.
> I will probably do that again in the future for the small things but for now I know that I have to curb any thoughts of apologizing unless like RC stated "I am truly and deeply sorry for what I've done"
> I really am hoping to find that "Balance" you talked about because I want my relationship with my wife to BE balanced. I am not looking to become some kind of domineering jerk, I am hoping to continue to be a loving husband who is respected and loved in return equally.
> 
> AFEH...
> 
> You amaze me with the things you have brought to my attention...I know it must have been a hard road for you in the past, and to be this generous to a complete stranger truly shows the quality of man that you are...Thank you again for the info, I will definitely be looking into a local course for the both of us in the future.
> 
> Relationship Coach...
> 
> Thank you for the nudge, it is appreciated...and for seeing the truth of me from just my posts...I have always been quick to apologize for many things throughout my life, and from the things I have been learning with everyones help here and the posts they have laid down before me, I have truly begun a change in myself for the better. I know in my heart that I won't be the same man I have been ever again. I Will BE BETTER...I know I have a long journey ahead of me and many steps to take, but look forward to sharing with the wonderful people I have only so briefly been introduced to here...
> 
> Well......I thought my wife MIGHT be ready to talk today. I made a pot of coffee this morning and she texted me "Thanks for the coffee" to which I simply responded "Sure" like it was no big deal...and really it wasn't. I didn't do it for her, but was happy to share it with her.
> 
> Later in the day she contacted me again, via Email about a Dentist I was looking for, HER " Is this the one, and do you want to try him" ME "Yes & yes" And the final thing that had me thinking we MIGHT talk was the fact that she texted me when leaving the house "Heading to the mall for G's Reward" I simply responded "K"
> 
> Based on these things I thought maybe she had owned up to her being disrespectful the other day.....I WAS WRONG...
> 
> I got home, cooked dinner, ate by myself, (I wasn't going to be a fool and wait for her). She finally gets home with my daughter around 8:40...and it's ARCTIC CHILL WIFEY still...no look, no talk, and now just like last night, just goes off to bed a few minutes ago...
> 
> I'm not mad, really I'm not, I am throughly frustrated...and quite a bit disappointed though. I really thought she could be more mature than this. I truly am beginning to wonder just how long I am going to have to wait for an apology? I already have plans for this weekend on Saturday night, I did before this happened and plan on going to a friends house for a party... I had hoped to bring my wife and daughter, but at this point I am almost certain I will be going alone.
> 
> Do I keep waiting it out, or do I push the issue and confront her on this? I mean I knew she was stubborn but 3+ days and she still has a serious layer of frost....My gut says, be the man...if it goes a month then so be it...I will keep acting like nothing is wrong, I just won't directly interact with her. Your thought would be appreciated
> 
> Mike


----------



## Halien

MPDBlues said:


> Halien...
> 
> I have in the past done the whole "fine , I'M sorry" for the small stuff to start, and then it became bigger stuff and easier than fighting which is why I feel I am where I am in this relationship now.
> I will probably do that again in the future for the small things but for now I know that I have to curb any thoughts of apologizing unless like RC stated "I am truly and deeply sorry for what I've done"


Looking back at my last response, I don't think I worded it very clearly. I wasn't suggesting that you should apologize. Sometimes, it is best to ignore the gray areas. If you were wrong, apologize. But what I was really talking about is that your relationship is currently moving along in a period of indecision, tentative actions to gauge a response, and negative reactions. I'm talking about the last few days. What is your purpose now? Does she even have a clue what this purpose is?

Personally, being a person who leans toward the alpha side, I seek purpose. As long as the relationship is moving along with purpose, a mutually fulfulling purpose, I'm okay. I'll ignore the gray area issues. Apologize if an apology is needed. Love it when my wife is also using her strengths to lead. But in a period like this, where the two of you are circling around an undefined state in the marriage, where she senses that something has changed, but doesn't know that that something is, I think you owe it to her to take the lead and tell her "This is what's happening. The new us." Take the lead on setting the direction of the new paradigm. Some will call it domineering, but when she begins to start emulating clear, directive leadership in the areas where she is stronger, let her have it. Both of you will find attraction in each other because both of you are responding with purpose, using your own individual strengths.

I'm suggesting that you break the problem down into two levels. One is purpose. Always having a marriage that has purpose in the way the two of you respond. Both of you need to agree on the ground rules, so if she begins to circle the wagon, wondering what is going on, or displaying repetitive passive aggressive behaviors, talk about where the marriage should be going. Sounds like this might be something that begins to become natural to her also, once she gets used to the new you. She'll give you the same speeches when you lose your way in meeting her needs.

The second level is where you are currently focused. It is the day to day conflict resolution. Maybe you both agree that the ideas you presented for change are good changes, but you still need to learn these day-to-day tactics for communicating. You certainly don't want to be beating the drum of pupose every time she says something out of place, in other words.

My only point here is that I think it is important to make sure that she understands the reason behind what you are doing, and you begin to frame it in a way that is now focused on both of you having an equal, committed voice in the relationship. You'll rarely have to have this discussion, though. Because of the bad habits that she has developed, it will be incredibly easy for her to assume that you are currently only dishing out her own medicine back to her, and that your intentions are self-serving.


----------



## MPDBlues

So MEM, you're saying stay the course and I agree...I want her to see that even though I may be laughing at the TV, or playing with my daughter, that I am NOT going to go to her, that she needs to come to me, because, well, this all began with her getting mad at my standing up for myself, and her being disrespectful. Based on the last few days that may take some time.(that is putting it mildly, brrrrrrrrr!)

And Halien, 
First off, no confusion on my part from your post concerning apologizing. I didn't think you were saying I should, I was really only making a blanket statement that in the future I may give in on the little things, the whole "pick your battles" thought...but now I am a little confused...are you suggesting I go to her and explain what it is I am attempting to do for our relationship...and to myself? That seems very contrary to the whole process of standing my ground...it seems that if I do this right she will eventually(?) give a little and begin to understand things to some extent on her own, based on how I begin to change. Please clarify for me if you will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

As a further refinement of an earlier post: in a gray area, I will typically ask: are you mad about X? If the answer is yes, I ask "what is it you are wanting me to do when (that situation) arises in the future? If the request is reasonable I say "ok", if not I briefly say what I am willing to do. 

If general tone has been good between us (and it usually is) and she pushes for an apology (which she usually does), I give one. It is brief and low key. If she has been pushing boundaries a lot, she gets a lite interrogation: before we talk more about me, what do you see as your part in this situation? 

At this point humor is invaluable if she is continuing to push the edge:
"so let me get this right, your behavior is straight out of the "low maintenance wIfe's handbook", while mine barely makes the grade for cro magnun man"?
Usually she says "finally you understand" and we both break up laughing.




QUOTE=MPDBlues;790237]So MEM, you're saying stay the course and I agree...I want her to see that even though I may be laughing at the TV, or playing with my daughter, that I am NOT going to go to her, that she needs to come to me, because, well, this all began with her getting mad at my standing up for myself, and her being disrespectful. Based on the last few days that may take some time.(that is putting it mildly, brrrrrrrrr!)

And Halien, 
First off, no confusion on my part from your post concerning apologizing. I didn't think you were saying I should, I was really only making a blanket statement that in the future I may give in on the little things, the whole "pick your battles" thought...but now I am a little confused...are you suggesting I go to her and explain what it is I am attempting to do for our relationship...and to myself? That seems very contrary to the whole process of standing my ground...it seems that if I do this right she will eventually(?) give a little and begin to understand things to some extent on her own, based on how I begin to change. Please clarify for me if you will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MPDBlues

Good Morning All!!!

No...we didn't talk...lol...As stated earlier she is still trying to freeze my will.

I just had a bit of an epiphony this morning. As I was driving into work I spoke...aloud...to myself(felt right, don't knock it) and went over this week...where I started to where I am...and I am REALLY happy about who I have been this week. 

I realized that I went from trying to stand up for myself...to being apesh!t mad...to finding a way to cool down...to finding a way to show that I will not accept this behaviour...to stepping through the fear and pain, and see the childishness...to doubting what I was doing...to questioning my resolve...to owning my reposonsibilty for the situation as it stands...to feeling calm, and in control for the first time...to knowing, I mean REALLY knowing that I AM NOT TO BLAME AND DID NOTHING WRONG...

It's all new and shiny and I am sure there will be setbacks, but I see something I never did before...Who I WANT TO BE and how I WANT TO BE TREATED...

I have been a good husband and father all week...I did cut back, not going over board on anything, but not shirking any part of my responsibilties...I have cooked, done dishes, cleaned a bit, put away laundry, taken care of my daughter, and myself...but what I have not done is let MY WIFES behaviour cause me to back down and capitulate...(I capitolized MY WIFES...because I noticed when reading through my posts that sometimes I said...'the wife', and she isn't 'the' anything...she is MY wife and I need to be the "MAN" she needs me to be, but I mostly need to be the man "I" want to be... 

I still hope to hear advice, and will still be posting as I need to...(and I'm sure I will need to) but I don't fear what will happen at this point, I'm not worried about what she might be thinking or what she might do...I just have to be patient, and see if she will come to me for the first time...and if she doesn't then I guess she doesn't, then I'll be back to say WTF HELP...LOL

Please feel free, (as I'm sure you will) to recommend actions, or show me if I am in error, or shoot down the balloon my head has become...or whatever you think you need to point out, either GOOD or BAD...I welcome all thoughts and comments. And THANK YOU for them ALL!!!

Mike


----------



## Halien

MPDBlues said:


> And Halien,
> First off, no confusion on my part from your post concerning apologizing. I didn't think you were saying I should, I was really only making a blanket statement that in the future I may give in on the little things, the whole "pick your battles" thought...but now I am a little confused...are you suggesting I go to her and explain what it is I am attempting to do for our relationship...and to myself? That seems very contrary to the whole process of standing my ground...it seems that if I do this right she will eventually(?) give a little and begin to understand things to some extent on her own, based on how I begin to change. Please clarify for me if you will.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mike,

Don't forget that your wife is a good person, and a good woman, who has fallen into behaviors that are not supportive of a mutually fulfilling marriage. You can tell her that currently, the marriage is taking away all the self-worth you once felt. Maybe say that you choose to believe that she is not doing that deliberately, but you cannot accept some of the behaviors that you once just took on the chin with a smile. Also, your goal is a marriage where you meet her needs, because you will not try to suggest that you were perfect, but it is also for you to find self-worth within the relationship. Simple enough. You know your wife, and you know how to find the right words to tell her that you are now driven by a deliberate, healthy view of marriage. Don't tell her the detail of what you are going through, or the books that you read, but let her know what is going on with you. Eliminate doubts.

There have been some women who have replied to similar posts in the past, offering that some of the advice suggested sounds a lot like games, and women shouldn't be "played". I think that you really want to do the right thing here, so always stay connected to your final goal here. Don't let your wife make the wrong assumptions about what your change really means. If she's headed in a way that ultimately hurts the marriage (which she has been), because it kills a part of you, be the leader and point her in the right direction when needed. She can learn to admire you, because you are a man who knows what it takes to get to a marriage full of attraction both ways, and you are going there. Its not about domineering. Its about leading in a vacuum, and being ready for the day that she'll lead her fair share of the time too.

Telling her what has led you to this change, and its purpose, can serve a couple of purposes. It keeps her from assuming that you've gone off the rails, or that you are preparing yourself to divorce. It can also gauge her concern for a marriage where neither of you know what its like to live in fear and humiliation. That's why its important to stress that you've changed because you recognize the need to get to a place where both of you feel respected and loved. If she argues with this, what does that say?

I'm not suggesting that you make this a huge deal. Only describing it expressively to illustrate the point. I'm really just challenging you to demonstrate a a simple explanation during this period of confusion, only a brief explanation, that also suggests that you are a man who faces conflict with a plan, even an unpolular one. A simple, "I want you to know why I've been distant the last few days ..." will not only correct any wrong assumptions she has, but it might make her start wondering why she suddenly finds your behavior attractive?

It took years for my wife and me reached a balance in this. Yes, at a different level, in the day to day, I struggled with learning the behaviors that MEM suggests so effectively. But when we went through expented periods where we were both circling the wagons, confused, gauging each other, etc, I finally learned that sometimes I'd just end it and say, "This has no purpose. This is what we'll do... " Other times, when I knew that she was smarter and more equipped to handle a different conflict, I'd say, "Look, I don't know what is going on. Tell me what we'll do..." Five minutes flat, and we were having incredible make-up sex. It takes time to get to this point.


----------



## MEM2020

Halien,
I think this is good. 

Mike,
I believe you should set a time limit on the "180" you are currently doing. Maybe a full week - it shows you are serious. 

At the end of that time - you can/should provide her a brief explanation of what you are doing. If it were me, I would leave her a note because it ensures you can convey exactly what you want, without interruption or distraction, and it will give her time to digest and understand what is happening. 




Halien said:


> Mike,
> 
> Don't forget that your wife is a good person, and a good woman, who has fallen into behaviors that are not supportive of a mutually fulfilling marriage. You can tell her that currently, the marriage is taking away all the self-worth you once felt. Maybe say that you choose to believe that she is not doing that deliberately, but you cannot accept some of the behaviors that you once just took on the chin with a smile. Also, your goal is a marriage where you meet her needs, because you will not try to suggest that you were perfect, but it is also for you to find self-worth within the relationship. Simple enough. You know your wife, and you know how to find the right words to tell her that you are now driven by a deliberate, healthy view of marriage. Don't tell her the detail of what you are going through, or the books that you read, but let her know what is going on with you. Eliminate doubts.
> 
> There have been some women who have replied to similar posts in the past, offering that some of the advice suggested sounds a lot like games, and women shouldn't be "played". I think that you really want to do the right thing here, so always stay connected to your final goal here. Don't let your wife make the wrong assumptions about what your change really means. If she's headed in a way that ultimately hurts the marriage (which she has been), because it kills a part of you, be the leader and point her in the right direction when needed. She can learn to admire you, because you are a man who knows what it takes to get to a marriage full of attraction both ways, and you are going there. Its not about domineering. Its about leading in a vacuum, and being ready for the day that she'll lead her fair share of the time too.
> 
> Telling her what has led you to this change, and its purpose, can serve a couple of purposes. It keeps her from assuming that you've gone off the rails, or that you are preparing yourself to divorce. It can also gauge her concern for a marriage where neither of you know what its like to live in fear and humiliation. That's why its important to stress that you've changed because you recognize the need to get to a place where both of you feel respected and loved. If she argues with this, what does that say?
> 
> I'm not suggesting that you make this a huge deal. Only describing it expressively to illustrate the point. I'm really just challenging you to demonstrate a a simple explanation during this period of confusion, only a brief explanation, that also suggests that you are a man who faces conflict with a plan, even an unpolular one. A simple, "I want you to know why I've been distant the last few days ..." will not only correct any wrong assumptions she has, but it might make her start wondering why she suddenly finds your behavior attractive?
> 
> It took years for my wife and me reached a balance in this. Yes, at a different level, in the day to day, I struggled with learning the behaviors that MEM suggests so effectively. But when we went through expented periods where we were both circling the wagons, confused, gauging each other, etc, I finally learned that sometimes I'd just end it and say, "This has no purpose. This is what we'll do... " Other times, when I knew that she was smarter and more equipped to handle a different conflict, I'd say, "Look, I don't know what is going on. Tell me what we'll do..." Five minutes flat, and we were having incredible make-up sex. It takes time to get to this point.


----------



## Seawolf

Hi Mike, I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I think you've received some real quality advice. You clearly are a decent guy who cares about his family and I suspect your wife is quite aware that she has a real diamond as a husband...she just intuitively knows and wants you to step up the manliness but is confused about how to get you to do this and not lose her own comfort in the marriage. Change will be scary for her because you are asking her to release control to man who, although she loves him, she's not yet confident in his ability to run, protect and provide for the family. The fact that you've realized this and taken action is damn impressive and should give you the confidence to know you have it in you to do this. To the rest of us your words here make this fact clear.

My only advice to you now is that you need to go from acting the part to being the part. As Chevy Chase famously said in caddie shack. "be the ball". My guess is that you've spent most of your life living in your head. Your inner dialogue is a constant voice for you and you've grown accustomed to consulting it before you take action. It probably appears to have served you well as it helps you avoid conflict, stay out of harms way and allowed you to please others. The thing is, this is a damn Tiring and stressful way to live and it prevents you from fully evolving into you best highest self. 

Your wife's reluctance to relinquish control to you is reflective of this. In a sense, you have been to afraid to give your own self control without checking that voice before every move. I see it in your writing here, and it's understandable as this change is new, but if you're going to be successful here, you'll need to starting trusting the fact that you are the guy you want to be and just act on instinct. How can you otherwise expect your wife to trust you if you don't trust yourself and reflect that confidence?!

Don't worry about every action you take, this is a process that isn't scored every moment. You, your wife and your marriage evolve over time like water on stone. Set the course, be consistent, trust yourself, and don't sweat every little action. You're going to make mistakes, but your instincts will serve you well over the long term. Trust them.

As for some of the recent developments your wife has given you some strong clues. The hair: this tells you that she not only knows you care about it, but that she also values the power of physical cues. This is an important insight into the message you can send her. Start on a physical improvement program. Take time to get some exercise, class up your dress style - even if you're just watching TV. Secondly, in my view, the crying was as much an act as it was anything else. She has realized that anger at you isn't effective as it has been in the past, so she tried guilt. Guess what? You passed! 

Keep it up! I think you innately have the right touch to combine authority, compassion and romance to get this marriage where it needs to be. Oh, and the romance thing. This is important. Call me a cave man, but the longer I'm married the more I realize that a woman needs her man to jump her bones once in a while. Now I guess she has some history here so you've got to calibrate your approach, but brother, you are her man and just as you've got to demonstrate competence and confidence in every day life, you've got to do the same in the bedroom and this means some mattress time for her. Trust me, done well with strength and confidence, you'll marvel at the positive impact on the rest of your relationship.

Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

There was a Jack London book I loved as a child....

This post is excellent. And Mike really is a natural. 




Seawolf said:


> Hi Mike, I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I think you've received some real quality advice. You clearly are a decent guy who cares about his family and I suspect your wife is quite aware that she has a real diamond as a husband...she just intuitively knows and wants you to step up the manliness but is confused about how to get you to do this and not lose her own comfort in the marriage. Change will be scary for her because you are asking her to release control to man who, although she loves him, she's not yet confident in his ability to run, protect and provide for the family. The fact that you've realized this and taken action is damn impressive and should give you the confidence to know you have it in you to do this. To the rest of us your words here make this fact clear.
> 
> My only advice to you now is that you need to go from acting the part to being the part. As Chevy Chase famously said in caddie shack. "be the ball". My guess is that you've spent most of your life living in your head. Your inner dialogue is a constant voice for you and you've grown accustomed to consulting it before you take action. It probably appears to have served you well as it helps you avoid conflict, stay out of harms way and allowed you to please others. The thing is, this is a damn Tiring and stressful way to live and it prevents you from fully evolving into you best highest self.
> 
> Your wife's reluctance to relinquish control to you is reflective of this. In a sense, you have been to afraid to give your own self control without checking that voice before every move. I see it in your writing here, and it's understandable as this change is new, but if you're going to be successful here, you'll need to starting trusting the fact that you are the guy you want to be and just act on instinct. How can you otherwise expect your wife to trust you if you don't trust yourself and reflect that confidence?!
> 
> Don't worry about every action you take, this is a process that isn't scored every moment. You, your wife and your marriage evolve over time like water on stone. Set the course, be consistent, trust yourself, and don't sweat every little action. You're going to make mistakes, but your instincts will serve you well over the long term. Trust them.
> 
> As for some of the recent developments your wife has given you some strong clues. The hair: this tells you that she not only knows you care about it, but that she also values the power of physical cues. This is an important insight into the message you can send her. Start on a physical improvement program. Take time to get some exercise, class up your dress style - even if you're just watching TV. Secondly, in my view, the crying was as much an act as it was anything else. She has realized that anger at you isn't effective as it has been in the past, so she tried guilt. Guess what? You passed!
> 
> Keep it up! I think you innately have the right touch to combine authority, compassion and romance to get this marriage where it needs to be. Oh, and the romance thing. This is important. Call me a cave man, but the longer I'm married the more I realize that a woman needs her man to jump her bones once in a while. Now I guess she has some history here so you've got to calibrate your approach, but brother, you are her man and just as you've got to demonstrate competence and confidence in every day life, you've got to do the same in the bedroom and this means some mattress time for her. Trust me, done well with strength and confidence, you'll marvel at the positive impact on the rest of your relationship.
> 
> Good luck!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MPDBlues

Thank you all for your help, I look forward to your continued support.

I have come to a decision...it is what I need to say and how I want to say it. I freely share this with you all...I am not looking for help with it, nor am I unwilling to hear your thoughts. 

It is what it is, with no apologies...I will share the results when they happen...good or bad.


"To My Wife:

I want you to know why I've pulled back and have been distant this last week…take a moment to read this and understand I do have a plan…

I Love you…I am In Love with you…that has NOT changed, regardless of what I say here, or the way I have been…You may be scared or make assumptions based on that…let that go…this is important for US. I won’t ask you to trust me. That will take time…but know that I am doing something necessary, again for US…

I take full responsibility for my part in our not having a mutually fulfilling marriage. I don’t truly believe that you are doing certain things deliberately, but I can no longer accept some of the behaviors that I once just took on the chin with a smile. My goal is a marriage where I meet your needs, and you meet mine equally, with trust, confidence, and respect. I will not try to suggest that I was perfect, far from it, but this is necessary for me, to find a self-worth within our relationship. I have lost that self-worth. I am taking it back. 

The first change I made was to stand up for what I need. This will continue. I will not be making lame apologies for imagined slights, but a level of respect, from both of us is required, and I will expect apologies for certain behaviors, and I think you know what I am talking about. I have been patient, but my patience is at an end. A week is long enough. This may make you angry, 
I understand, and accept that. So be it.

However…I do not blame you…nor am I angry with you. Let me say that again…I do not blame you…nor am I angry with you. You NEED to understand THAT above all else…The way I have been all week should show that. I didn’t stop being a husband or being a father at all. When we talked last week and you stated your feelings about me as a man, it woke something up…it really hit me very hard, made me face some very serious and potent demons within myself. It made me take a VERY deep look at myself and who I am…I have begun to see that I have tried to be a good Husband…and a good Father, but that I, WAS FAILING, at being a good MAN. No More…This, first and foremost, is what I am endeavoring to repair and to reclaim…Being the MAN we both need. I should have listened harder and heard what you were saying well before it got to this point…

I no longer want to look away from the things I see hurting our marriage and I know you don’t either, you have made that clear to me in the past and I expect that will continue. I meant the vows I made to you and I know you meant them too. I don’t expect this to be a quick fix, or for everything to happen without its fair share of more bumps in the road, 

But…I need to change ME. This is a must.

I am going to be making changes to myself…I am not asking you to change, nor making any demands of you…that isn’t within my power…what is within my power is to change the man I am, into the MAN I want to be. I don’t expect you to like all of these changes at first, because they will affect you, and our relationship…I expect that some of these changes may even scare you, and anger you, well…so be it, they are necessary…

I hope that you will have the Patience, the Love, and the Faith in US to accept these changes for what they are…a positive change in ME to be YOUR Husband, the one you can put your trust in, the one you can lean on for support and strength, YOUR Lover, whom you can let yourself be free with, and in who’s arms you want to be held, YOUR Friend, who will comfort, shelter and protect you, YOUR MAN, above all other considerations."


----------



## Halien

MPDBlues said:


> "To My Wife:
> 
> I want you to know why I've pulled back and have been distant this last week…take a moment to read this and understand I do have a plan…
> 
> I Love you…I am In Love with you…that has NOT changed, regardless of what I say here, or the way I have been…You may be scared or make assumptions based on that…let that go…this is important for US. I won’t ask you to trust me. That will take time…but know that I am doing something necessary, again for US…
> 
> I take full responsibility for my part in our not having a mutually fulfilling marriage. I don’t truly believe that you are doing certain things deliberately, but I can no longer accept some of the behaviors that I once just took on the chin with a smile. My goal is a marriage where I meet your needs, and you meet mine equally, with trust, confidence, and respect. I will not try to suggest that I was perfect, far from it, but this is necessary for me, to find a self-worth within our relationship. I have lost that self-worth. I am taking it back.
> 
> The first change I made was to stand up for what I need. This will continue. I will not be making lame apologies for imagined slights, but a level of respect, from both of us is required, and I will expect apologies for certain behaviors, and I think you know what I am talking about. I have been patient, but my patience is at an end. A week is long enough. This may make you angry,
> I understand, and accept that. So be it.
> 
> However…I do not blame you…nor am I angry with you. Let me say that again…I do not blame you…nor am I angry with you. You NEED to understand THAT above all else…The way I have been all week should show that. I didn’t stop being a husband or being a father at all. When we talked last week and you stated your feelings about me as a man, it woke something up…it really hit me very hard, made me face some very serious and potent demons within myself. It made me take a VERY deep look at myself and who I am…I have begun to see that I have tried to be a good Husband…and a good Father, but that I, WAS FAILING, at being a good MAN. No More…This, first and foremost, is what I am endeavoring to repair and to reclaim…Being the MAN we both need. I should have listened harder and heard what you were saying well before it got to this point…
> 
> I no longer want to look away from the things I see hurting our marriage and I know you don’t either, you have made that clear to me in the past and I expect that will continue. I meant the vows I made to you and I know you meant them too. I don’t expect this to be a quick fix, or for everything to happen without its fair share of more bumps in the road,
> 
> But…I need to change ME. This is a must.
> 
> I am going to be making changes to myself…I am not asking you to change, nor making any demands of you…that isn’t within my power…what is within my power is to change the man I am, into the MAN I want to be. I don’t expect you to like all of these changes at first, because they will affect you, and our relationship…I expect that some of these changes may even scare you, and anger you, well…so be it, they are necessary…
> 
> I hope that you will have the Patience, the Love, and the Faith in US to accept these changes for what they are…a positive change in ME to be YOUR Husband, the one you can put your trust in, the one you can lean on for support and strength, YOUR Lover, whom you can let yourself be free with, and in who’s arms you want to be held, YOUR Friend, who will comfort, shelter and protect you, YOUR MAN, above all other considerations."




Wonderfully written!!!

I also like Seawolf's comment about recognizing that you won't be perfect with every attempt you make. If your heart is in it, you will get there.


----------



## MPDBlues

Halien said:


> Wonderfully written!!!
> 
> I also like Seawolf's comment about recognizing that you won't be perfect with every attempt you make. If your heart is in it, you will get there.


I freely admit to borrowing a few things, and thank you all for the inspiration.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

Ha! You’re feeling better already. Isn’t it amazing what a “state of mind” can do! And that’s where it all starts, in the mind, in the imagination.

With a good will and vision we start dropping off old habits and getting into new, healthier ones. It is a journey this life thing whose destination is assured. So we better enjoy every single day of our journeys!

A lot of change is about impulse control. Life is mainly made up of many different habits and our natural impulses lay within them. One of the biggest and best single things we can do is to master our unhealthy impulses.

For example if your wife pokes you and you feel your anger rising, resist the impulse to express it! Instead just smile (a new impulse) and walk away (another new impulse) until you’ve processed your anger.


----------



## MEM2020

I am utterly dumbstruck - at how perfect this is. 




MPDBlues said:


> Thank you all for your help, I look forward to your continued support.
> 
> I have come to a decision...it is what I need to say and how I want to say it. I freely share this with you all...I am not looking for help with it, nor am I unwilling to hear your thoughts.
> 
> It is what it is, with no apologies...I will share the results when they happen...good or bad.
> 
> 
> "To My Wife:
> 
> I want you to know why I've pulled back and have been distant this last week…take a moment to read this and understand I do have a plan…
> 
> I Love you…I am In Love with you…that has NOT changed, regardless of what I say here, or the way I have been…You may be scared or make assumptions based on that…let that go…this is important for US. I won’t ask you to trust me. That will take time…but know that I am doing something necessary, again for US…
> 
> I take full responsibility for my part in our not having a mutually fulfilling marriage. I don’t truly believe that you are doing certain things deliberately, but I can no longer accept some of the behaviors that I once just took on the chin with a smile. My goal is a marriage where I meet your needs, and you meet mine equally, with trust, confidence, and respect. I will not try to suggest that I was perfect, far from it, but this is necessary for me, to find a self-worth within our relationship. I have lost that self-worth. I am taking it back.
> 
> The first change I made was to stand up for what I need. This will continue. I will not be making lame apologies for imagined slights, but a level of respect, from both of us is required, and I will expect apologies for certain behaviors, and I think you know what I am talking about. I have been patient, but my patience is at an end. A week is long enough. This may make you angry,
> I understand, and accept that. So be it.
> 
> However…I do not blame you…nor am I angry with you. Let me say that again…I do not blame you…nor am I angry with you. You NEED to understand THAT above all else…The way I have been all week should show that. I didn’t stop being a husband or being a father at all. When we talked last week and you stated your feelings about me as a man, it woke something up…it really hit me very hard, made me face some very serious and potent demons within myself. It made me take a VERY deep look at myself and who I am…I have begun to see that I have tried to be a good Husband…and a good Father, but that I, WAS FAILING, at being a good MAN. No More…This, first and foremost, is what I am endeavoring to repair and to reclaim…Being the MAN we both need. I should have listened harder and heard what you were saying well before it got to this point…
> 
> I no longer want to look away from the things I see hurting our marriage and I know you don’t either, you have made that clear to me in the past and I expect that will continue. I meant the vows I made to you and I know you meant them too. I don’t expect this to be a quick fix, or for everything to happen without its fair share of more bumps in the road,
> 
> But…I need to change ME. This is a must.
> 
> I am going to be making changes to myself…I am not asking you to change, nor making any demands of you…that isn’t within my power…what is within my power is to change the man I am, into the MAN I want to be. I don’t expect you to like all of these changes at first, because they will affect you, and our relationship…I expect that some of these changes may even scare you, and anger you, well…so be it, they are necessary…
> 
> I hope that you will have the Patience, the Love, and the Faith in US to accept these changes for what they are…a positive change in ME to be YOUR Husband, the one you can put your trust in, the one you can lean on for support and strength, YOUR Lover, whom you can let yourself be free with, and in who’s arms you want to be held, YOUR Friend, who will comfort, shelter and protect you, YOUR MAN, above all other considerations."


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## Seawolf

Excellent. I wouldn't change a thing. I also would set any preconceptions about how she initially reacts. It may be great, but truthfully, it will probably be underwhelming. Stay strong, confident and positive. You're on the right path.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Seawolf

Er, that should be "wouldn't"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MPDBlues

Seawolf said:


> Excellent. I wouldn't change a thing. I also would set any preconceptions about how she initially reacts. It may be great, but truthfully, it will probably be underwhelming. Stay strong, confident and positive. You're on the right path.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seawolf...

Your warning about preconceptions was dead on...I prepared myself for the worst...so I wasn't shocked when I heard it...

First off let me thank EVERYONE who has given their two cents, as well as say thanks for letting me blatantly plagiarize from many of you when putting the note together...



With that said here's what happened...

I left the note for her right on her laptop, as that is the first thing she sees when she comes downstairs...I was up before her and headed down to the basement to get myself ready for the day, I came up expecting the worse and wasn't dissapointed...

HER (hysterically) "Someone is leaving this house today for good, will it be you or me?:
ME (calmly)"and why is that?"
HER (Crying)"because I'm done"
ME " really? our marriage means that little?"
HER "I can't do this, you are asking too much of me, I don't want to talk about this now...why couldn't you do this last night when our Daughter was asleep?"
ME "We are doing this now, and I'm not asking for anything I'm telling you what I need"

I then called my M-I-L, and brought my daughter over to give us time to talk (used the wifes car, she doesn't have a key to mine)

When I got back, it was VERY rough...for both of us, Lot's of tears...from both of us...(not afraid to admit that one at all)
I told her what I was doing about me...and for me...which would benefit us. She kept getting stuck on "your asking me to change and I can't!" and I kept repeating, with all the love I could muster, "I'm not asking you to change unless you choose to change, I am asking you to accept the changes I am making to ME"

When push came to shove I got her to finally admit she was scared to death that she was going to lose me, she thought the calmness I had displayed meant it was over and that I was leaving. She knew what she had been doing was causing a lot of the problems between us, she blamed herself for things over and over...she owned up to the issue that started it all....

I just kept explaining to her in the simplest terms I could, that this was not me trying to change her at all...it was me changing ME...to be the true MAN we both needed. It's impossible to give all the details of everything we talked about...it was close to 3 hours from start to finish. But by the end, there were no more tears, she gave me one of the most heartfelt apologies I think she has ever given...I mean EVER...and I could see she really understood that I had no intention of leaving, that I was really fighting like hell to keep us together...

I capped it off by letting a bit of the Alpha in me shine through, and grabbed my wife, kissed her like we haven't kissed in...well lets just say it's been a looong time...

She laughed and said "I don't want to have make up sex right now" (with a smile)
I said "this isn't make up anything, this is me taking my wife, because I want her here and now" (wolfish grin and a half...lol)

After some time, we got my daughter and went for lunch and it was the most relaxed and comfortable we have been with each other in a while. 

T.A.M. is the best thing I have ever done for my marriage, and I will recommend it to everyone and anyone. You have all helped us set our marriage on the right path. We have a long way to go and many a step to take, but I am looking forward to remaking myself and my marriage into what they are supposed to be. 

God Bless you all, sincerely,

Mike


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## Seawolf

Well done brother, well done
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020

Mike,
I have never seen anyone completely rewire their behavior in one week. Not even close. A year is typical for someone who is determined.
Most men are not able to respond to a direct threat of divorce in a calm, constructive and loving manner. Actually very few are able to do that. 

Your wife really, really loves you. 





MPDBlues said:


> Seawolf...
> 
> Your warning about preconceptions was dead on...I prepared myself for the worst...so I wasn't shocked when I heard it...
> 
> First off let me thank EVERYONE who has given their two cents, as well as say thanks for letting me blatantly plagiarize from many of you when putting the note together...
> 
> 
> 
> With that said here's what happened...
> 
> I left the note for her right on her laptop, as that is the first thing she sees when she comes downstairs...I was up before her and headed down to the basement to get myself ready for the day, I came up expecting the worse and wasn't dissapointed...
> 
> HER (hysterically) "Someone is leaving this house today for good, will it be you or me?:
> ME (calmly)"and why is that?"
> HER (Crying)"because I'm done"
> ME " really? our marriage means that little?"
> HER "I can't do this, you are asking too much of me, I don't want to talk about this now...why couldn't you do this last night when our Daughter was asleep?"
> ME "We are doing this now, and I'm not asking for anything I'm telling you what I need"
> 
> I then called my M-I-L, and brought my daughter over to give us time to talk (used the wifes car, she doesn't have a key to mine)
> 
> When I got back, it was VERY rough...for both of us, Lot's of tears...from both of us...(not afraid to admit that one at all)
> I told her what I was doing about me...and for me...which would benefit us. She kept getting stuck on "your asking me to change and I can't!" and I kept repeating, with all the love I could muster, "I'm not asking you to change unless you choose to change, I am asking you to accept the changes I am making to ME"
> 
> When push came to shove I got her to finally admit she was scared to death that she was going to lose me, she thought the calmness I had displayed meant it was over and that I was leaving. She knew what she had been doing was causing a lot of the problems between us, she blamed herself for things over and over...she owned up to the issue that started it all....
> 
> I just kept explaining to her in the simplest terms I could, that this was not me trying to change her at all...it was me changing ME...to be the true MAN we both needed. It's impossible to give all the details of everything we talked about...it was close to 3 hours from start to finish. But by the end, there were no more tears, she gave me one of the most heartfelt apologies I think she has ever given...I mean EVER...and I could see she really understood that I had no intention of leaving, that I was really fighting like hell to keep us together...
> 
> I capped it off by letting a bit of the Alpha in me shine through, and grabbed my wife, kissed her like we haven't kissed in...well lets just say it's been a looong time...
> 
> She laughed and said "I don't want to have make up sex right now" (with a smile)
> I said "this isn't make up anything, this is me taking my wife, because I want her here and now" (wolfish grin and a half...lol)
> 
> After some time, we got my daughter and went for lunch and it was the most relaxed and comfortable we have been with each other in a while.
> 
> T.A.M. is the best thing I have ever done for my marriage, and I will recommend it to everyone and anyone. You have all helped us set our marriage on the right path. We have a long way to go and many a step to take, but I am looking forward to remaking myself and my marriage into what they are supposed to be.
> 
> God Bless you all, sincerely,
> 
> Mike


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

So proud of you, Mike!!! I'm really glad you helped her to understand. Way to go!!!


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## Tigerman

Good stuff. Congrats and best of luck on everything to follow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

_Said a disappointed visitor, 'Why has my stay here yielded no fruit?'

'Could it be because you lacked the courage to shake the tree?' said the Master benignly._

Anthony de Mello



You shook your tree Mike. You’ll never regret it.


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## Unendinglove

Deejo, great words! I need to get aboard with that line of thinking as I am in some deep ----- when it comes to that!


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## MPDBlues

Hey All,

Just thought I would follow up with everyone, because I realize I want to keep in touch even when things are good.

My wife and I really had a good day yesterday, after the trial of Saturday. We were able to banter back and forth...I was able to find a little touch of humor in many of the things we did during the day, and so was my wife...

At one point she pointed to the counter where I had used a red marker to make a wet paint sign last week, and it had bled through the paper onto the counter, she looked at me and with a smile said "So I'm not supposed to get mad about this?" and I came over, looked at it, and with a deadpan expression said "No...you can get mad when I goof up...your supposed too, It's on me to come up with a wise ass crack about my woman cleaning up after her man when he makes a mess" and started to walk away...she actually laughed, smacked me on the ass and said "You really ARE a man" It was awesome to be banterig with her again.

I'm really beginning to understand what I need to be for us in the relationship...I have still been keeping it "cool" for her, not initiating touch, and not saying ILY first, etc...What's killing me is I am having a hell of a time breaking out of the habit of saying the word "sorry" for simple stupid stuff...I opened the bathroom door to brush my teeth and she was behind it and I scared her a little, it came out...It crops up like turrets...I cringe evertime...I am trying to be conscious of it and yet it seems it's so ingraned that I can't stop it...

What do you know I'm back to asking for help...lol Would appreciate some advice on how I can curb...if not kill this habit.

Mike


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## Seawolf

This is easy. You can't stop it, so modify it to fit the new you. Next time it should go like this; "I'm sorry...but you're so hot I must take you right here!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

I used to believe that changing a habit was all about will power, strength of will. That we had actually to think about breaking the habit on a more or less constant basis, kind of worry about it. But that just focuses us on the habit we’re trying to break and keeps it at the forefront of our mind, which is the last thing we want to happen.


For me now it’s all about impulse control. We get a triggering event for the habit, say to have a cigarette and instead of satisfying the impulse we just tell our self “no”. Then we let the impulse pass us by and carry on with what we are doing. When we get the impulse again in the near future (it is habitual!) we just tell our self no again and move on again. It’s this way that I broke a smoking habit of just about 50 years. It took just 8 weeks to break the habit, that was over a year ago and now I just don’t think about them at all. I never get the impulse to have one.


We can actually feel these impulses “rising” in our mind. “Hey here it comes, the impulse to say “sorry” has risen in my mind!”. It’s at this point you just tell your self no and carry on with what you were doing. It really is that easy. You just keep saying no to the impulse to say sorry and pretty soon you will find you no longer get the impulse at all.


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## MPDBlues

Seawolf said:


> This is easy. You can't stop it, so modify it to fit the new you. Next time it should go like this; "I'm sorry...but you're so hot I must take you right here!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Seawolf...

I am realizing that in a spur of the moment situation I am going to be unable to stop it, so I am looking forward to the day when I can present that much of an alpha to my wife on a daily basis...lol




AFEH said:


> I used to believe that changing a habit was all about will power, strength of will. That we had actually to think about breaking the habit on a more or less constant basis, kind of worry about it. But that just focuses us on the habit we’re trying to break and keeps it at the forefront of our mind, which is the last thing we want to happen.
> 
> 
> For me now it’s all about impulse control. We get a triggering event for the habit, say to have a cigarette and instead of satisfying the impulse we just tell our self “no”. Then we let the impulse pass us by and carry on with what we are doing. When we get the impulse again in the near future (it is habitual!) we just tell our self no again and move on again. It’s this way that I broke a smoking habit of just about 50 years. It took just 8 weeks to break the habit, that was over a year ago and now I just don’t think about them at all. I never get the impulse to have one.
> 
> 
> We can actually feel these impulses “rising” in our mind. “Hey here it comes, the impulse to say “sorry” has risen in my mind!”. It’s at this point you just tell your self no and carry on with what you were doing. It really is that easy. You just keep saying no to the impulse to say sorry and pretty soon you will find you no longer get the impulse at all.


AFEH...

Would love to equate the impulse control from smoking to this...but I quit smoking cold turkey...and never looked back...Don't think I will be able to NEVER say I'm sorry again...lol

Although I am now more capable of seeing the situations that I tend to say it in more clearly...I have been doing my best daily to find better ways to express what I want to say without saying, excuse me, or pardon me, or sorry...Not that I am being rude by any means...just attempting to change the dynamic.

An example would be today, at work I overlooked a part number on something and it was brought to my attention. Instead of giving a quick "sorry about that" I simply stated "You are correct sir…it was. That’s not gonna work for you, is it?" it was received without comment and I felt empowered by it.

This is what I will keep doing when I can think it through, and when I do slip I will simply note it to myself and look to change it the next time I am in similar circumstances. Thanks!


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