# anybody stay together for the children?



## brownie (Jul 28, 2009)

I have posted the long, difficult details of my marriage on the possible separation/divorce board, but I was wondering...

When your marriage is in limbo and everyday is difficult, but you still love each other, do you stay together for the kidss?

We don't argue with each other, just don't talk that much. I believe I am emotionally abused because he withholds physical affection and meaningful conversation. 

When the possibility of my H moving out came up, my youngest (who is 6) said 'I just want you to stay together.'


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## JDPreacher (Feb 27, 2009)

Maybe this will help you...from about.com

Pros
The tide seems to be swinging in the direction that parents in low-conflict marriages should stay together for the sake of the kids.

Elizabeth Marquardt, author of "Between Two Worlds": "Even a good divorce restructures children's childhoods and leaves them traveling between two distinct worlds. It becomes their job, not their parents', to make sense of those two worlds."
Source: NY Times

Elizabeth Marquardt, author: "If you are in a low-conflict marriage, the idea of a good divorce is really very misleading. It makes you think that, so long as you divorce the right way, your children will be fine. It's simply not true."
Source: Anderson Cooper 360 Interview

Dr. Joshua Coleman, psychologist and author: "Contrary to the wisdom of pop psychology, it is not essential to your or your children's well-being for you to have a great marriage." Dr. Coleman counsels that imperfect harmony in a home allows each parent to love and care for the children full-time.
Source: "Imperfect Harmony"

Elizabeth Marquardt: "The good divorce is an adult-centered vision. ... No matter what the level of conflict, a divided family often requires children to confront a whole set of challenges that children in married-parent, intact families do not have to face."
Source: USA Today

Elizabeth Marquardt: "No matter how happy a face we put on it, the children of divorce are now saying, we've been kidding ourselves. An amicable divorce is better than a bitter one, but there is no such thing as a 'good' divorce."
Source: Washington Post

Elizabeth Marquardt: "While a 'good divorce' is better than a bad divorce, it is still not good. For no matter how amicable divorced parents might be and how much they each love and care for the child, their willingness to do these things does absolutely nothing to diminish the radical restructuring of the child's universe."
Source: Jane Eisner, Philadelphia Inquirer

Cons
Professor Constance Ahrons, author of "The Good Divorce", stated in an interview that there are two elements to a good divorce.

* "One is that the parents get along sufficiently well that they can focus on their kids as parents and be parents."

* "And the other element is that children continue to have relationships with both parents."
Source: Source: Anderson Cooper 360 Interview

Robert Emery, director of the Center for Children, Families and the Law at the University of Virginia: "While a great many young people from divorced families report painful memories and ongoing troubles regarding family relationships, the majority are psychologically normal."
Source: NY Times

Stephanie Coontz, historian and author: "There will always be couples who need divorces."
Source: NY Times

There appears to be quite a few studies that show that having unhappy parents creates unhappy kids.

Constance Ahrons, sociologist: "There is an accumulating body of knowledge based on many studies that show only minor differences between children of divorce and those from intact families, and that the great majority of children with divorced parents reach adulthood to lead reasonably fulfilling lives."
Source: USA Today

Carolyn Usher, publications director at British Columbia Council for Families in Vancouver: "It's not divorce per se that causes all the damage. Children can usually cope with separation and adapt to new living arrangements. It's the ongoing high level of conflict that hurts them."
Source: Todays Parent

Where it Stands
The consensus among many marriage experts is that although it is a difficult process, most children from divorced homes will grow into successful adults.
Source: NY Times

To gain a deeper understanding of the good divorce issue, USATODAY.com did a comprehensive comparison of the two sides to the good divorce issue.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Good points JD

In our case, we did stay together for the kids. It has been over two years since the marriage was on the brink of collapse and if I were a betting man I would have bet we’d have been done by Christmas that year. But we stayed together and tried to work things out. Our kids knew there was something terribly wrong in the marriage. We were in “low conflict” but lots of discussions behind closed doors, lots of tears and anxiety. Sleeping in separate rooms for a bit. But within a month or two they saw things level out and I doubt they even knew there were problems after that. The arguing between my wife and I stopped when we discovered just how damaged the marriage was. Since that time we have had only one argument and that was about how to discipline one of the kids. Before we argued about petty BS like what show to watch or snap at some insignificant action of the other. When we really discovered and understood why we were both unhappy in the marriage we quit bickering over the little things and concentrated on the core issues. We took this time to strengthen our marriage. We worked on communicating our needs and listening to each other. To better support each other professionally and growing our friendship. The marriage is hugely improved from where it had been for several years. But it is still not fully healed. Had there not been kids involved I don’t think we would have put all the effort, pain, tears or time into repairing it. I think it is important to note that the term “low conflict” is key here. We had low conflict so they didn’t see the bickering and fighting as they had seen in the past.


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## blueberry (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm a product of staying together for the kids. I don't recommend it. Kids need to know what is and isn't acceptable in a marriage or else they will think your marriage is the norm and they should find someone who completes that picture. That said, if you stay together for the kids and actually work on improving your marriage you're giving them the greatest picture of all. Marriage takes hard work and it's so healthy for kids to see their parents make the effort.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Yes, we have had low points where we were in it exclusively for the children. 

I was the product of a divorce, as were the *seven* OTHER children who's lives were changed forever by the breakup of my parents. I will never believe my life was _better_ because my parents divorced. My parents were not physically abusive or such, my father drank (anyone would drink being married to MY mother....), but at least I had a father who loved me and my sisters. 

My mother went from one man (my father) to his best friend, who was a pedophile...need I say more? I think mothers of children should divorce and NOT hook up with Tom, **** or Harry, when they have children. I know, _unrealistic_, but a caution, as I see far too many children abused by boyfriends and stepfathers. This is why I am a SERIOUS proponent of women being financially SECURE before having children, because many women are cornered into getting with a new man because of financial issues single parenting creates....(BTDT).

I do NOT think kids "adjust" and are so "resilient" as people want to believe. I believe there are better times to divorce, developmental "windows" if you will, for children, and that a couple should work to hit a "window" of time in a child's life that is less traumatic than say, the teen years (12-18). 

I think divorce before age 3 is best.

The judge was giving my dh custody of our then 4 and 6 year olds, because "_He was the *least* likely to be able to be flexible...._" WTF is that? I got hosed because I was THE amicable and flexible parent!


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## brownie (Jul 28, 2009)

*~*

Sandy~ my biggest fear would be losing custody of my bys. I can't think of a single reason- I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, I make $94K+ per year. Still, while everyone else tells me no way I would lose them, it terrifies me. I just don't know what I would do without them.

DId you lose custody of yours?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

blueberry said:


> That said, if you stay together for the kids and actually work on improving your marriage you're giving them the greatest picture of all. Marriage takes hard work and it's so healthy for kids to see their parents make the effort.


:iagree:
Excellent point


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## Mommybean (Jan 22, 2009)

My H and I had our bad times, and IF we did not have kids it would have been MUCH easier to bail out when it was the worst. We are doing GREAT now, and our kids, though young (2 and 4) have seen Mom and Dad disagree, but we tell them, everyone disagrees at some point, but that does NOT mean we don't love each other or you. They've learned that you can be upset with someone and still love them at the end of the day. If it had not been for the kids, we may not have stuck around and worked thru the issues. 

There is a difference however between staying in a low conflict marriage and staying in an abusive/ extremely hostile situation.


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## Corpuswife (Apr 24, 2009)

Given the description of your marriage (no abuse, affairs, addiction), then I would say go for it.

In one of Dr. Dobson's books, I read that if in cases like yours...if you waited 3 years there would be a significant change in your relationship for the positive. Not all marriages, but a good majority. Basically, things will change over time. Of course, it isn't always good.


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## HELP ME. (Jun 10, 2009)

i have posted this before... I am the posterboy for "staying for the kids".... our marriage sucks like yours. we have nothing to say to each other, no intimacy, etc.... 

I moved out 2.5 years ago and her first "male" interactions were with a guy who taught my boys to collect knives and want "mohawk" haircuts.... I immediately undid my move out and was there for the kids...... 

nothing has changed in the 2 years really.... just more of the same barely living.... financially it is hard to split up as well... she made $25k last year and I make decent $.... but $100k / 2 = barely living with 2 mortgages, utilities, etc....

i am lost as to what to do.... if i could win the lottery and find someone who appreciates me for me, i would be in heaven... 

Goodluck..... what is your view of sticking around for the children now that a few people have posted?


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

*Re: ~*



brownie said:


> Sandy~ my biggest fear would be losing custody of my bys. I can't think of a single reason- I don't drink, smoke, do drugs, I make $94K+ per year. Still, while everyone else tells me no way I would lose them, it terrifies me. I just don't know what I would do without them.
> 
> DId you lose custody of yours?


Yes, I did lose custody. I do not drink (social, light); I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, I have high education, success at raising my eldest alone..no abuse to kids, you name it...

DH had more MONEY to keep in court....I spent over $17,000. in lawyers, he spent about, oh, $27,000. 

SO - we are together STILL, and have another son...and doing well, some of the time. Our marriage isn't _easy_..but then again nothing worth having is attained easily. But we do have very bright moments, and the moments have gotten better.

Even with divorce, you have to remember your DH is in your life forever, if you have kids.


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## brownie (Jul 28, 2009)

Thing is, if he would start talking to me like he used to and bring down this wall he has created, he wouldn't even have to say I'm sorry to me. I realize that it is hard when trust is shaken. Most of the time, I want to try to stick it out. THe rest of the time, I feel like I have been sticking it out for 6.5 years now. 

Sometimes I believe that my kids deserve to see us both happy, whether together or aprt. Other times, I believe it is just more important for them to see us together. 

sandi55~you had another child after the separation/beginning of divorce and then divorce got called off? how long ago?


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## Heidiw (Jul 2, 2009)

Brownie
I have been with my stbx for 14yrs & we have a daughter together. For the past 3-6yrs he did the same thing to me. He barely gave me any affection & the sex life went down hill. I always thought it was me. He made it clear that I had body issues & made sure to point it out to me.

The thing is I should've left him 10yrs ago when he cheated on me but we had just had our daughter & couldn't handle being a single mom. Fast forward today...well I am divorcing him & getting rid of any life I had with him. The only good thing he gave me was our daughter & she is staying with me. He won't ask for her just wants to see her. 

You have to be the judge of what you want out of your life. Do you want to make it work for you & your husband? You have to realize that children will work through a separation/divorce. Our daughter is doing ok with everything & only wants to see me happy. She has anger towards her dad but she is working on it. The other options is talking to the husband about what you are feeling. Maybe going counseling.


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## brownie (Jul 28, 2009)

He has said no to counseling. I went alone for awhile. 95% of the time, I still want to make it work but when he says or does something completely selfish, I just want to scream and tell him to get out~which I have done. That, of course, made him stay. Now I know to say nothing of the sort. If he ever left as a result, he would later say he only left because I asked him to. 

My boys get sad when it comes up. My youngest thinks his father hung the moon and stars. And I love that they all love each other the way they do. One thing I will never stand for, though, is him telling them that it ended because their mother is a liar. I WILL NOT STAND FOR THAT!!!


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## Heidiw (Jul 2, 2009)

Its not a good situation to be in but you have to do what is best for you & your kids. They may want you to stay together but sometimes it just isn't meant to be. They don't need to grow up in a house with two parents who don't love one another. They need a healthy home to live in. If you decide to kick him out & divorce put your kids in counceling. This will help them to understand why it happened. The husband also needs to be a part of it but if he isn't willing to do it for you would he even do it for his own kids?

My daughter is 10yrs old & is the same way with her dad. Once everything went down with us she was more concerned with me then anyone else. Right now she is visiting with her dad which is what they both need. He is trying to repair their relationship & that is what matters to me right now.

There isn't much time before school starts & then she will be with me all the time. So he needs to take advantage of this time.


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## brownie (Jul 28, 2009)

I completely understand what you're saying but we do still love each other. I just don't like him very much right now. And I feel very lonely when I am around him most of the time. 

The pain in dealing with him does sometimes prevent me from being who I want to be. I am a very happy person but I have become very depressed and anxious. Not sure I'm good for the boys when I'm like this.


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## Heidiw (Jul 2, 2009)

Brownie
If u still love each other then he should be willing to work on the marriage with you. When you love someone the affection & attention is given on both sides. There is also the physical, emotional, & mental part that we all need. 

You two have to sit down together to see what has changed. He needs to talk to you & u need to do the same. Have someone watch the kids for a weekend & plan something for the two of you. 

If he truely loves you he will tell you what is going on with him & he will listen to what you have to say. Your right its not good for you kids but you are being pushed into this state of mind by him.

Whatever u do though do stay in a marriage that just isn't going to work. It will never help your kids just teach them that its ok to treat people that way. You don't want them to grow up with what they might be seeing. It could hurt any relationships they may have a ways down the road. That is why I am breaking the cycle in my family. I don't want our daughter to grow up thinking its ok to stay with someone who doesn't respect you or treats you badly.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

brownie said:


> Sometimes I believe that my kids deserve to see us both happy, whether together or aprt. Other times, I believe it is just more important for them to see us together.
> 
> sandi55~you had another child after the separation/beginning of divorce and then divorce got called off? how long ago?


(Sorry this is so long...we have been a couple since Oct 1982...)
Yes, we had another child. Once dh got custody, I began "negotiations" so I could live together again with my DH (we were physically separated 33 months, a huge mess in court, plus I ended up getting deployed to Desert Storm, but DH, who was also Reserve/Guard never got deployed). Anyway, when he got custody, the custody order was entered before property and final decree. He had his parents move into our home to care for our kids ; my MIL is - well, she has "issues" shall I say? Well, I was seriously broke and in debt to all my friends and family (very good support network), I was working full time Civil Service (GS-11) after being released from Desert Storm. Well, when DH got custody (totally unexpected as we'd had THREE custody evaluations and TWO recommended the judge make me primary custodial parent for _many_ reasons), as you can imagine my world totally ceased when I heard the judges order...I actually thought I was about to pass out right in the courtroom, and people actually gasped, they were so shocked (it meant my 12 year old daughter would be separated from the two younger sibs too!). It was a nightmare come true. SO - I began talking to my dh about "this mess" and he agreed it would be "better" if I were to "come back home".  SO, dh and I developed a plan to make that happen, negotiated...I agreed to "try". To be honest I didn't give a damn what I had to do to get back with my kids....I would do it, as if they lived with my DH full time, my MIL would be in charge of them, she hated me...so you see? 

So, I quit my Civil Service job. We moved far, far away from there to "start over". Well, before we moved, DH and I flew to look for a new home, and buy one. While we were home looking we slept together for the first time in two YEARS and bingo, we now have another son: he will be 16 in January.

I have learned that when we are young and "spunky", not so wise, we tend to act too quickly and think we should solve things by action, to change things. We can't see that patience and insight are what is needed. We don't know, as young married couples that changing out one spouse for another OFTEN brings all the same things to the next marriage, BECAUSE it is often within ourselves the change must be made, rather than trying to change our spouse.

I was divorcing my spouse because he hurt me to the core - not an affair, but I thought he would be there for me, but he could not be there because he was not capable of understanding. He had not lived long enough to learn to be the kind of man I needed in such a terrible crisis as I had the fourth year of our marriage. I think that crisis is what caused me to get so ANGRY at my DH, so DISAPPOINTED, that my love for him just faltered and I became blind to how much he loved ME, but could not be there for me because he did not know how.

I didn't understand that back then. It wasn't that he did not WANT to help me, but did not know how. 

I know that now. My DH has stuck with me, even though I had an affair during the crisis. It hurt him terribly, but I did not see that for about FIVE years, it took me FIVE years to get past most of the hurt and pain we went through. I still have times I get upset and angry just thinking how all it came about, the road we headed down; there are still times DH will bring up the OM...but I promised him I'd not have another affair...and this is because I just made MYSELF a promise, not him. The crisis brought me to my knees, and the affair buried my honor. I will never let that happen again. 

And it has been since April 1993 we have been back living together, making it. When we got back together I actually hated my DH, I hated the sight of him, and I did not treat him nicely at all. He did not treat me badly due to the affair, he kept bringing it up for about 7 years, at least once a week...boy was that exhausting. Now he may bring it up once every six months. Now we just say when one of us sees the other thinking "in that direction about the hurt of the past years" we say "Let's not go there...."

We have CLEAR frustrations and issues, but we are still learning. What we are learning is to let go of the little stuff.
We are still learning to let go of resentments.....and the little crap in life. Marriage seems to start out with this pyramid, at the beginning you have the base, the big part, and in the base are all these "issues" and as the years go on, the pyramid starts to move upward, the "issues" getting smaller and smaller as you near the top (pointed end) of the pyramid...it is as if the focus becomes clearer. On the way up the pyramid sometimes you fall back to the base and have to re-assess, and re-work whatever issues life has thrown in to your pyramid (illnesses, children, deaths, moves, job losses, money issues - all the "wrenches" life throw you (the meteors that fall out of the sky into your marriage, including deployments, affairs and all the crap life hands us all). BUT in a good marriage you learn to realize those wrenches ARE going to happen. You work to NOT have too many, if you can avoid it, by SMART choices...but if a couple REALIZES things are going to happen, really DIFFICULT things...one or the other disappoints the other DEEPLY - as my DH did...and the other reacts BADLY - as I did with the affair. IF the couple realizes these things are going to happen, but WE are a unit and a unit that WE (or ONE of us if the need be at times - as has been the case with my DH - he NEVER gave up on us, even though I threw in the towel for YEARS) will NOT quit, then you make it to the top of the pyramid. 

I think it takes a certain hard-headedness. Like my DH.  My DH never used to say "sorry" to me for anything. As he has matured, he has looked back and more and more often come to me and asked for my forgiveness. He has been learning, slow as it has been, he has learned, and so have I.


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

Oh, and Brownie:

Our kids are now 33, 23, 21, and almost 16. They have seen us go through ALL this "stuff". Early on we had arguments (I actually threw a toaster one day, I was SO mad at DH!), from years 1-14; less and less frequent and less intense as time went on.

Our kids have LEARNED what marriage is about...and I think it has had a good effect. They have seen the WORK it takes and now they all call us "cute" together. They love our family and how it is turning out. My DD 33 has been married 10 years in February and has a very strong marriage and four children. My DS 23 is married, no kids, and in a very complex marriage, but hanging in there..am very amazed how hard he does keep trying to keep his long distance marriage together; DD 21 says she is not ready, and probably will wait and is in no hurry as she wants to get it right the "first time". DS 16, says: "I am just here living with these old people" and "Mom, I like living here with you and Dad..." 


And now we hardly ever never argue, we just _look_ at each other or read body language. 

I love that part. I will hear one of the boys (still at home DS 16 and DS 23) say "Dad, she's got the look...".

:rofl::rofl: And everyone runs for cover. :rofl: Just kidding.


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## brownie (Jul 28, 2009)

That is a very inspiring story, even though we haven't gotten to what was your bottom of the pyramid. This still feels like it though sometimes. 

H has had some health issues on and off for the last year and the doctors just can't find what is wrong with him after many, many tests. Part of me thinks it is stress showing its head in the physical sense. When he was at his lowest and really thought he might not wake up again, he kept telling me how much he loves me and he always tells the boys. In my dresser drawer right now, I have a paper that tells us that he loves us ALL and that he prays every night that he will see us again tomorrow. 

Then rewind to about 2-3 weeks ago when he told me that he needs his boys to see that they shouldn't stay with someone who will lie to them in their faces. That was heartbreaking for me, the thought of it. I told him that he better be 100% sure that what he was telling them was the truth and that I know it can't be because there is nothing else that I have done. I just can't have them go through that for no reason at all. 

He is sitting across the room from me now and while I am looking right at him and feeling sad because I can't just say what I want or do what I want like I used to, I definitely do still love him. Getting teary eyed right now! And I do still regret so much the fact that I lied to him over and over about the same thing for so long. I have to keep reminding myself that I have been a faithful and loving wife and that may just not be enough for him.

I do know that I made changes in my behavior when I would see that something bothered him and in hindsight, I shouldn't have done that, should have just been myself and then he either could deal with it or not. Example, if one of his friends gave me a hug goodbye or kissed me on the cheek, he would get mad at me. Once when pregnant, we were going away with some friends, and when we stopped for gas, his friend came to the car to say hi to me and reached in and put his hand on my belly. Yes, that was uncomfortable for me but I had nowhere to go! He barely spoke the rest of the car ride and then he fumed when we got therel. I told him that his friends' actions were in showing him respect by being kind to his wife but he didn't see it like that. 


Yes, we DO have our issues, but I really cannot imagine my life without him. I have been with him more than half my life afterall and thought it would be that way until one of us left this world. Now, how do I get him to see all that without having to beg? I won't be doing that for sure because that would mean that all his behaviors are ok and THEY ARE NOT!


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