# Next Steps and help with an 'Emotionally Comatose' spouse



## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

So i haven't posted for a long time, as my wife and I have been working through our issues with a counselor with mixed results. You can see the history behind this post if you care to read my previous threads.

Long story short, my wife thought I was being verbally abusive so she emotionally disconnected and started seeing someone else. Through therapy I have realized that she was right and I have worked very hard at curbing my emotions and now am a much more even keel person. Her short lived, plutonic affair is over and we have hashed that out at nauseum with our therapist.

The problem is that my wife can't break free of this emotional numbness as she calls it. There is no intimacy in our of affection in our marriage although, she says to our counselor that she wants to get there, but can't break free of the past.

I basically have to walk on eggshells, because anything I say that upsets her takes her back to to this emotionally numb state according to her. For example, I told her I thought she was being a little snippy this morning and she snapped. Silent treatment, more talk or emotional numbness, etc.

Feel like I'm doing my part here, but don't see that she is willing or able to do hers. Anyone have any similar experiences? Could use some advice as we are just not progressing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Have the two of you gone to couples/marriage counseling?

What sort of things do the two of you do together? How many hours a week do you two spend together, just the two of you, doing date-like things?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You probably need to be patient. Your mistreatment lasted years, correct? She is not going to trust you again quickly.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

Yes, we see a counselor as often as we can, but I travel a lot so it's tough. We seem to get along ok, and we have been trying to do dinners out and other date night stuff, but it's been hard finding sitters, to do it often enough. The problem now is that she associates all kinds of things with what she considers the abusive behavior of before. 

For example, this morning I was on the computer trying to upload some photos and she came into to help. She got all control freak like she can sometimes and tried to grab the mouse, I said hold on a second and she got all pissy. Later when I asked her a question about the upload she came in and got all testy and said 'well what I was trying to say before'. I said I thought she was being a little snooty and the next thing I know she's storming out and telling me that she's 'emotionally done' again. 

The line between what was bad behavior and just general couple stuff seems to have gotten blurred. Just about anything sets her off now and we go right back to zero.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

I understand, but we should be making some progress. Seems like we are just in a holding pattern and everything time I even show the slit east annoyance at something she rings the alarm bells and goes back into her emotional shell. Needless to say, she has no problem being annoyed at me or saying things that are hurtful. But that stuff doesn't count I guess 😒


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Hmmm. This one is toughie. I've never seen one exactly like it.

You were a bad husband. Your wife checked out because of it. You finally heard her, woke up and are now a better person but she doesn't see it. Almost like she's gone for good. Even though you really want to try. 

I don't know what to tell you. I've never seen anything quite like it before. 

Maybe try therapy or counseling...

:banghead:


Walk Away Wife 101. 

Lesson 6. Once they get to this point, they're gone. For good. And no, there is no way to see it coming. We men ALWAYS find out when it's too late. There is no mechanism in place to predict it. We all just like to treat each and every one individually. Like they're all different or something. And the best part...


...AFTER it's too late. Each and every time. 

She's gone dude. Stay in a loveless marriage or leave. There are no other options. She will NOT love you again.

Lesson 7: Read up on the 180. Live it. Learn it. Love it. It saved my life. But it's hard. REALLY hard.

You have a tough row to hoe. I am where you are now 6 years ago. I'm still with her. She still doesn't love me. But I don't care any more. That's where you need to be. That's what the 180 does.

And I am NOT giving you advice based on "it happened to me so it must happen to everybody". Nah. did I mention 6 years? On this and other sites. Reading about basic WAW 101. It should be a science. But nobody cares to figure it out. 

Good luck man. She's gone.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Alpinglow said:


> We seem to get along ok, and we have been trying to do dinners out and other date night stuff, but it's been hard finding sitters, to do it often enough. The problem now is that she associates all kinds of things with what she considers the abusive behavior of before.


WAW 101. It's a subchapter in lesson 6 about why it's almost impossible for them to come back. 

This sh1t should be a science. SO freakin' predictable.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

As a woman, my two cents. She's done. Stop trying. Granted, she may very well come around - in time. But at this point, since everything you do short of breathing is setting her off just leave her be.

Ever considered separation for awhile? It may give her the distance she needs. But, as I said, it sounds like she's got a mountain load of anger that isn't going to dissipate soon. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. We split up. Looking back, I recall having second thoughts the first eight months of the separation.

Then I realized I was just done. Unfortunately, it sounds like your wife could be at this point.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If she's done how come she hasn't walked yet? Is she milking it for all its worth?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Why are the two of you trying? Do you love her? Does she say that she loves you?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

For how many years were you abusive?

For how many years have you been non-abusive? 

Or are you just less abusive than you were?


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## camerashy (May 29, 2016)

This is pretty much my life. 

I wish I could say, "she'll come back to you," but I don't know. Sometimes too much is just too much - no matter how much one party tries to correct it. 

And women find it harder letting go of the past, I think.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Alpinglow said:


> So i haven't posted for a long time, as my wife and I have been working through our issues with a counselor with mixed results. You can see the history behind this post if you care to read my previous threads.
> 
> Long story short, my wife thought I was being verbally abusive so she emotionally disconnected and started seeing someone else. Through therapy I have realized that she was right and I have worked very hard at curbing my emotions and now am a much more even keel person. Her short lived, plutonic affair is over and we have hashed that out at nauseum with our therapist.
> 
> ...


Now you know how your wife had to live when you were verbally abusive. Verbal abuse is VERY damaging. I've lived it.



Alpinglow said:


> I understand, but we should be making some progress. Seems like we are just in a holding pattern and everything time I even show the slit east annoyance at something she rings the alarm bells and goes back into her emotional shell. Needless to say, she has no problem being annoyed at me or saying things that are hurtful. But that stuff doesn't count I guess 😒


That's how she's learnt to cope over the years. It will take YEARS to undo the damage caused by the verbal abuse, if it's possible at all. Just as it will take years for any changes you make to your behaviour, to filter through and become second nature to you.

I don't know OP, I'm not hopeful of a good outcome here. When women reach this point, we're usually done and nothing will bring us back. The fact that she wants to is a good sign, but it just may not be possible.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

john117 said:


> If she's done how come she hasn't walked yet? Is she milking it for all its worth?


My wife "walked" about 15 years ago. We still go to sleep in the same bed every night. One of themain reasons "Walk-Away-Wife" never caught on. Once you leave, you;re just gone. Thew whole WAW part is that she's still in the marriage while it's happening.

This woman is a classic WAW. And nobody but me gets it.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

frusdil said:


> When women reach this point, we're usually done and nothing will bring us back. *The fact that she wants to* is a good sign, but it just may not be possible.


I missed where that bold part makes sense. She's gone and she's not trying.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think you're fighting an uphill battle here. There is some ptsd present where there's been abuse, and the result is that she's very sensitive because she doesn't trust you.

She can't distinguish between normal exchanges and you slipping back to old habits.

You think there should be progress because you weren't on the receiving end, and you yourself can't completely distinguish because according to you you didn't realize you were being abusive. 

Imagine if your wife rejected you sexually for years and you shut down. Then she realizes it and tries to do better and you're expected to respond. It may not be so easy for you, and every time she has a headache you may go right back to rejection land, even if she really does just have a headache. 

These are the battles you have to fight, and they take a long time. 

Do you want to invest the time knowing it may not work? That's a question you have to answer.

Can you be more specific about the nature of this abuse? Were you angry? Insulted her? Examples might be helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

How many years did you treat her badly? My guess it that will take as long for her to trust you again if not longer. I do get the frustration to want to know if she wants to be there. I mean it is possible she has checked out 100% but doesn't yet want to pull the plug on the marriage. You need to state your opinion in the MC, it isn't suppose to be just one sided. In this new life you guys are creating do you have any good moments. You need to be able to communicate with each other without fear but that will take some time, you have to give it time.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You might find this helpful, OP:

Reconciliation with a Hardened Wife


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

OP:

You screwed up. You know you screwed up. You are trying to fix yourself. I have been there, and I get it. Good on you for doing so.

OP, your wife likely felt powerless for a long time. Now that you have become more humble and less abusive, she is grabbing for that power, some of which is rightfully hers. This is not a slight on her, and is (IME) a somewhat normal response. However, it can be rife with problems if you do not address this now.

This requires several things:

1. *Your temper MUST be a thing of the past.* Controlling your emotions, even when she is being a snot and deserves your anger, will only seek to sabotage anything you are trying to communicate. Even if you are calm on the surface, yet seething with anger underneath, she will sense it. Figure out how to deal with your anger. As Conrad used to say, communicate everything to your wife in a cool, firm, and dispassionate (CFD) tone.

2. *Address your issues with control. * Much abuse stems from control, or a perceived lack of it. However, your opening post proved to me you have issues with control. On the mouse incident, you could have calmly asked her if she wanted to take over the computer. But you didn't. Instead, you felt like she was controlling, which caused a reaction. OP, normally the people that I see on this board that call others controlling are in fact projecting. Face it; you did not want to give up the computer. Sure, she could have handled it better, but we will get to her in a second.

3.* Recognize that your wife is trying to make up for something that was deficient in your relationship.* When she acts like a snot, it is not necessarily about you. She is hurt and trying to make herself feel better. @MEM11363 has said repeatedly, from his MC, that anger is a secondary emotion, and it normally stems from fear or hurt. Guess what? Hurt people hurt people. This will help you understand her anger is not necessarily about you, and will subsequently help you to remember to remain CFD.

4. *First try to disarm her anger.* The most effective way to do this is active listening, or just offering to help her. For the active listening, I would ask @jld. I prefer the asking for help, because it helps my partner find out what she needs in the moment to feel better, and it works most times, but others I need to use active listening.

"Wife, what can I do right now to help you?"

My wife normally responds well to that.

5. *Enforce boundaries.* If neither active listening nor offering to help her works, then it is likely her just being bratty. It happens; none of us are perfect. HOWEVER... Just because you were an @sshole in the past doesn't mean she has a license to give you arbitrary crap. This is where you enforce a boundary.

"I am not okay with you talking me in that tone." 

"I am not okay with you taking the mouse away while I was on the computer."

"I am sorry you feel that way."

Remember, CFD. Zero anger. She may get snarky. She may even call you abusive again. Enforcing a boundary is not abusive. Shrug your shoulders and walk away. Just because she suffered from you in the past does not mean she gets a free pass to "even the score".

6. *Be patient, but have a deadline.* This process will take a long time, and it may not recover. So set a deadline of whatever makes the most sense to you. For me, it was eight months. At month six, I was still convinced we were done. At month seven, she started to really come around. By month eight, we were actually pretty good, and on our way to great.

Take care, brother.


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## lisanpr (Jun 8, 2016)

.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

*" I will do anything to save my marriage...anything."*

@Alpinglow , Remember those words? Do you really believe that? Your wife indicated that your business travel is part of the problem. Are you still travelling for work? Yes. Are you doing MC? No, because "we see a counselor as often as we can, but I travel a lot so it's tough." In order words, it is not important enough to make it work for you to see a counselor. Do you do date night? No because "it's been hard finding sitters, to do it often enough." Really? Nothing here says you are pro-active at all.

You are totally reactive. You told your wife she was being "snippy"? Really? That is a fight starting word. If your boss was acting strange to you, would you call her/him "snippy" or would you mention that you notice something is wrong and ask how we both can address this?

"I have worked very hard at curbing my emotions and now am a much more even keel person." Does not sound like you have curbed your emotions? Look at the words you use: Emotionally Comatose, snippy, control freak, pissy - to mention just a few.

IMO @MattMatt is right. Are you just less abusive than you were? And @jld is right. You need to be patient. And you need to fix your **** because it is NOT fixed. 

In the past you had been physically away, and when you were home you were (by your own words) emotionally abusive. Now you complain that your wife has shelled up.

You can fix this, together with her, but you need IC to continue because you have NOT gotten to where YOU need to be. Fix you before you fix her or the marraige. In fact, you cannot fix her or fix the marriage until you fix you. Business travel is no excuse. Tough.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lisanpr said:


> Something very similar happened to me with my husband. The worse mistreatment lasted for around 7 years but escalating towards the end to the point he was physically agitated/aggressive and I started fearing he would physically hurt me or the kids.
> 
> I turned to a women's line to talk to someone cause I didn't know what else to do for help and was emotionally/psychologically broken. Through help I was able to get stronger and finally confronted him and told him pretty much I was done.
> 
> ...


Lisa, please post this on your threads, too. It gives a more complete picture of your situation.

And please read this and see if you can relate:

http://www.familyministries.com/Reconciling_husbands.htm


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think you're fighting an uphill battle here. There is some ptsd present where there's been abuse, and the result is that she's very sensitive because she doesn't trust you.
> 
> She can't distinguish between normal exchanges and you slipping back to old habits.
> 
> ...


Yes, i'm willing to invest the time. I just hope she is. I guess the thing that is most frustrating is that I feel like I have made huge strides in my internal frustration and how it affected her. Now it feels like the bar has been moved and if I show any annoyance with her whatsoever it takes her back to this emotional comatose place. Is it possible for two people to live together and not be slightly annoyed form time to time. Lord knows she is annoyed at me regularly and isn't afraid to show it. Aren't I being held to an impossible standard here?


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

alte Dame said:


> Why are the two of you trying? Do you love her? Does she say that she loves you?


Yes, I love her and she says she loves me. I hope that's true. :|


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> *" I will do anything to save my marriage...anything."*
> 
> @Alpinglow , Remember those words? Do you really believe that? Your wife indicated that your business travel is part of the problem. Are you still travelling for work? Yes. Are you doing MC? No, because "we see a counselor as often as we can, but I travel a lot so it's tough." In order words, it is not important enough to make it work for you to see a counselor. Do you do date night? No because "it's been hard finding sitters, to do it often enough." Really? Nothing here says you are pro-active at all.
> 
> ...


All fair. But where is the line between normal human interactions and abuse? Obviously her definition and mine were way off when we started this mess (I was wrong). But now, it seems as if 'abuse' is me being slightly annoyed for a moment and saying 'I think you're being snippy'? Let's say I condition myself to never get annoyed at her again, is the bar then reset to when I'm not smiling? 

I own my past, and have worked hard to make good progress on my issues. I need to understand what success looks like in her eyes.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Alpinglow said:


> Yes, i'm willing to invest the time. I just hope she is. I guess the thing that is most frustrating is that I feel like I have made huge strides in my internal frustration and how it affected her. Now it feels like the bar has been moved and if I show any annoyance with her whatsoever it takes her back to this emotional comatose place. Is it possible for two people to live together and not be slightly annoyed form time to time. Lord knows she is annoyed at me regularly and isn't afraid to show it. Aren't I being held to an impossible standard here?


Yes and no. She's testing you because she doesn't know if she can trust you. And as farside pointed out, she's attempting to yank power and control back from you. This may swing a little until it settles into equilibrium.

When you cause trauma the price is often that you're held to much higher standards while the person heals. People who cheat can no longer get away with normal opposite gender interactions because they've shown they can't be trusted. That's the price they pay. 

I have lunch with my ex boss from time to time, he works at my company and he is really responsible for my entire career.

We are good friends and hb knows him, and I've never cheated. But if I did I'd lose my right to normal interactions, like a lunch with my male ex boss.

So what might be normal without your history is no longer normal. 

You're going to need a lot of patience and will need to choose your battles carefully. 

But you can choose a timeline to see if you guys are progressing. Just keep it to yourself, because the point isn't to pressure her, it's to get a feel for whether she can move past it. You won't be able to evaluate that with pressure.

I still think some examples would be helpful because we'd get a feel for the level of sensitivity we're talking about. That might help to give you better advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Alpinglow said:


> Yes, i'm willing to invest the time. I just hope she is. I guess the thing that is most frustrating is that I feel like I have made huge strides in my internal frustration and how it affected her. Now it feels like the bar has been moved and if I show any annoyance with her whatsoever it takes her back to this emotional comatose place. Is it possible for two people to live together and not be slightly annoyed form time to time. Lord knows she is annoyed at me regularly and isn't afraid to show it. Aren't I being held to an impossible standard here?


The only way you could resent her for improving yourself is if you were doing it for her...which is the second person you should be doing it for, not the first... YOU


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## zookeeper (Oct 2, 2012)

The bad news is that often it really is too late. She may want to forgive and move forward but simply be unable to trust you ever again. Such is the nature of relationships. It's kind of like forgetting to water a houseplant for too long. Once you go past a certain point, all the water in the world won't bring a brown, crispy plant back to life. You can keep watering it but you're really just making a mess

I would say it's time for a very direct conversation about your marriage. Listen carefully, and not just to the words that come out of her mouth. Pay attention to the body language, her facial expressions, tone, etc. The answer will not be hard to see if you are truly tuned-in.

Good luck to you. We all must pay for our mistakes and sometimes the price seems outrageously high. Trying to stiff the cashier usually only increases the pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Everyone has 'snippy' and 'snooty' days. The best thing to do is to ride it out until everything is calm (or you're ready to pull your hair out) and then tell her that you noticed she wasn't herself and the snippy and snooty was getting old. To comment every time is a drag for her even though you get a little thrill because you were accused of verbal abuse. Or, you can just shut down the convo and say you will continue when she is feeling better (this could backfire, though, as she may think she is on top of her game).


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

What is the timeline? How many years were you abusive? How many months did you spend in therapy? How many MONTHS have you been this new man that made huge strides?


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

Will try to answer questions and provide an update here. This whole thing started last November, right after Halloween. The catalyst was that I found out she was seeing someone else. The other relationship was very short lived and no sex involved, but still - she had real feelings for this person. After a very rocky month she ended the relationship and committed to therapy with me. As we started to diagnose what happened in therapy, it came out that she felt that I 'hated her' because I was so verbally abusive. She has two main data points for this, one was when we went to Florida with the kids and I had an adult tantrum trying to put car seats into a rental car in the blazing heat. I don't remember specifics from that day, but basically, as she was telling me what she thought I should be doing I snapped and threw the car seat in the car and said something like 'you f'n do it then'. The other was when we were pulling our small fishing boat out the water...similar situation. I was exhausted from business travel and irritable that whole day, then things came to a head. She said something that annoyed me (don't remember what) and I snapped back some snarky remark. Mind you, I never told her she was fat, ugly, useless, dumb or anything like that - it was just the _way_ I did and said things that hurt her. I've always loved her, and certinatly never hated her - so comments stating such came and still come as a complete shock to me.

I have learned through therapy that my behavior was just as damaging as more personal insults could be and, that i learned this behavior from years of watching my father treat my mother this way. I see other couples doing similar things and wonder if people's tolerance for this sort of behavior varies, but that is the beside the point. What matters is my behavior and my marriage and the happiness of my wife. 

In therapy yesterday she broke down when we talked about the computer/snippy situation. It has been rare for her to cry throughout this process, but she really let go yesterday. She said I treat her like ****, that I don't appreciate her and that it is more the way I say things than what I say. Our counselor interjected a few times and said things like....'do you think that maybe because of the damage that has been done in the past that any show of annoyance by your husband sets you off'? My wife acknowledged that, but clearly to her, it didn't matter. She's hurt. 

According to her we are back at rock bottom. And I'm just lost.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Because you are not adhering to principles. 

You need deep introspection as to what type of man you want to be. Form your principles, and live by them rigidly. 

Example: I will commit to respecting my partner, and will expect the same from her.

Another example: I will be loving and affectionate towards my partner, and will expect the same from her.

If your wife wants to remain with that man, she will show it. 

In the meantime, set about to be that man, and also set yourself a deadline. If by that deadline she is not in, then it's time for you to move on.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I think people do have different tolerances for this kind of thing. . I know I am very sensitive emotionally because of my background and my hb absolutely cannot snip at me. 

Exchanges like that would cause me to pull away because I don't feel emotionally safe. For the record, I am quite controlled this way and do not snip st people. So I'm not a hypocrite. 

But taken as isolated incidents she's probably overreacting. However, it sounds like this may be an ongoing dynamic between you two and she points to them as examples. 

Do you think looking back that this represents a greater dynamic? Or do you feel these were isolated incidents? 

Did you apologize after the exchange or let it fester? I know my hb has a tendency to bury his head in the sand, but when you don't address it you leave her to draw her own conclusions that may not be true..... like that you hate her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Dr. Obvious will ask once again... why hasn't she walked so far? Physically walked out I mean.

It seems to me that she's getting something out of the status quo which I find a bit distasteful. 

Does she work outside the house?


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

john117 said:


> Dr. Obvious will ask once again... why hasn't she walked so far? Physically walked out I mean.
> 
> It seems to me that she's getting something out of the status quo which I find a bit distasteful.
> 
> Does she work outside the house?


She's self employed so she works from home most of the item but regularly goes out for appts. etc. She told the therapist yesterday when asked why she was sticking it out that she feels like this should be the best time of our lives. Our kids are getting old enough to fend for themselves, financially we are fine, etc, etc. We just can't seem to generate mutual respect for each other she said. 

I think she sees the potential, but is just struggling to come back emotionally.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

So you are abusive for about 8-12 years and you expect that because you are this "better" man for the last six or less months that all should be well?

Of course you are lost. Do what @farsidejunky suggests.

And I too want to know if you apologized for the "snippy" comment.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I think people do have different tolerances for this kind of thing. . I know I am very sensitive emotionally because of my background and my hb absolutely cannot snip at me.
> 
> Exchanges like that would cause me to pull away because I don't feel emotionally safe. For the record, I am quite controlled this way and do not snip st people. So I'm not a hypocrite.
> 
> ...


Probably part of a larger dynamic. We are both type A and are judgmental of others. This probably creeps into our relationship at times. I have a thick skin so It doesn't often bother me, and thought she did too. But I was wrong I guess. 

In every case where I was a jerk before I would apologize almost immediately. Always told her I was sorry and that it wasn't her - that I was just irritated and she happened to be there.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> So you are abusive for about 8-12 years and you expect that because you are this "better" man for the last six or less months that all should be well?
> 
> Of course you are lost. Do what @farsidejunky suggests.
> 
> And I too want to know if you apologized for the "snippy" comment.


I don't expect anything. Just trying to understand where we are and if we can fix this. Yes I apologized for the Snippy last weekend comment and bought flowers. I'm not proud of what I've done or who I am at the moment. Hurting my wife doesn't make me happy in any way. The problem is that I don't always know what hurts her. I'm learning.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Find a new vocabulary and a new way to communicate your frustration. Know going forward that your wife will take your criticisms seriously so it is up to you to as to whether you want her to feel safe with you, or not. 

Your posts have a tone of patronizing in regard to your wife. Your wife could be picking up on that. No one likes to feel that they are stupid and spouses don't need to be chastising one another.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> Your posts have a tone of patronizing in regard to your wife. Your wife could be picking up on that.


Very obvious. You are very right.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Alpinglow said:


> The problem is that I don't always know what hurts her. I'm learning.


Before you do or say anything negative, wait 10 seconds. Take a deep breath. Then don't do or say it.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Before you do or say anything negative, wait 10 seconds. Take a deep breath. Then don't do or say it.


All good advice. I guess i just really don't see it sometimes. The problem it is usually frustration or agitation over something other than my wife that gets me feeling agitated. Then something comes out that I wish I didn't say. If I could control the feeling, it would be easier to control the outburst. Anybody have any success with that? Tips on how they conquered it?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Alpinglow said:


> She's self employed so she works from home most of the item but regularly goes out for appts. etc. She told the therapist yesterday when asked why she was sticking it out that she feels like this should be the best time of our lives. Our kids are getting old enough to fend for themselves, financially we are fine, etc, etc. We just can't seem to generate mutual respect for each other she said.
> 
> I think she sees the potential, but is just struggling to come back emotionally.


"Should be" could be interpreted as... 

"I'm benefiting from sharing assets, expenses, and from getting even with you".. 

During the years of your misbehaving, did you ever consider what she did to trigger those reactions from you??


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> Find a new vocabulary and a new way to communicate your frustration. Know going forward that your wife will take your criticisms seriously so it is up to you to as to whether you want her to feel safe with you, or not.
> 
> Your posts have a tone of patronizing in regard to your wife. Your wife could be picking up on that. No one likes to feel that they are stupid and spouses don't need to be chastising one another.


He's got a way to go to get to my level of contempt so maybe there's hope...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Alpinglow said:


> All good advice. I guess i just really don't see it sometimes. The problem it is usually frustration or agitation over something other than my wife that gets me feeling agitated. Then something comes out that I wish I didn't say. If I could control the feeling, it would be easier to control the outburst. Anybody have any success with that? Tips on how they conquered it?


(wears PhD cap and gown)

1. Practice predicting her behavior ahead of time... most humans we know well are remarkably easy to predict.

2. Triage your response - no point in responding to every last thing

3. Defuse a lot of potentially bad encounters early on

4. Script important conversations ahead of time - BIG ONE

5. Pick your battles 

Now, the operative words here are "not always". If you find you have to do this every day you have other things to worry about.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

john117 said:


> (wears PhD cap and gown)
> 
> 1. Practice predicting her behavior ahead of time... most humans we know well are remarkably easy to predict.
> 
> ...


Good advice thanks. Will work on that. Are you ever able to control irritability or frustration internally? Or, is it all about conditioning yourself not be transparent in your responses?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I am, but that's only because I have learned to project a rather different image to different people for different reasons. 

I am a superb planner. Mostly because I know myself and can lay out the elements of a conversation ahead of time, or do it real time. 

Ask five people who know me well about me and you won't get back one answer. You will get lots of answers. It could be your wife is egging you.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

John, you're a psychologist so it is doubtful that the run of the mill Tom, Dirk or Alpinglow could imitate or duplicate your je ne c'est quoi. Your abilities to interact and present yourself (wife excepted, of course - what's up with that?) exceed those of the rest of us mere mortals.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not that kind of psychologist alas... I help design gadgets, not fix people.

Besides, much of what I learned for reading people came from my father, a career Army officer... long before I went to college.

You can do much of what I said by observing and thinking. A lot. That's what Major Dad taught me. Just like he could pick a fleck of rust on one of his men's rifle. 

Does it work? Part of it does. Every time. But a lot doesn't. OP needs to know what he's dealing with. I somehow sense there's more to the story, people don't verbally abuse others or take verbal abuse for years on end without some good reasons. 

Could they set measurable goals with their counselor? I'm sure they could. But it troubles me that Mrs OP feels happy with the status quo. Almost like she's getting even. 

Not everything can be fixed. Oftentimes I'll spend week after week and then scrap my work. It's like that with humans.

One could also go blunt and ask.

0. Ask if it's worth saving to begin with
1. Recognize and own up to.the past
2. Ask if there is chance for genuine reconciliation 
3. If 2 is true, ask what it will take and how would you both know you did it
4. If 2 is false, ask why she's still here

Start thinking in terms of a flowchart or directed graph, if this then that, else that. This is tough. But I did it at age 12.

It hasn't worked with my wife for a variety of reasons, yet it took me a while to figure out it wasn't fixable. I saw what I wanted to see, the bright mathematics grad student with her "I dream of Jeannie" hair and outfits (partially kidding). And when it finally dawned on me that it was a bunch of factors, each fixable in itself but all together not fixable, I decided that was it and called it a day. In retrospect I should have done it five years earlier but patience is one of my main features 😠


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification. Silly me, I didn't know gadgets needed a psychologist.:wink2:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Things change. A significant amount of work was done by the USAF in the 40's and 50's to determine what were the limits of cognitive processing for pilots. A classic example is multitasking. We knew the fundamentals of how the brain processes information. But we did not know the limits, or how to design stuff so that it's easy to use by not running into those limits... Terms like user experience were created. It's really a cool area because it combines basic cognitive science, some computer science, design work, some marketing analysis, talking to test users, analyzing how people use what we make and why...

As my kids are fond of telling their friends, I design buttons 😂


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Alpinglow said:


> So i haven't posted for a long time, as my wife and I have been working through our issues with a counselor with mixed results. You can see the history behind this post if you care to read my previous threads.
> 
> Long story short, my wife thought I was being verbally abusive so she emotionally disconnected and started seeing someone else. Through therapy I have realized that she was right and I have worked very hard at curbing my emotions and now am a much more even keel person. Her short lived, plutonic affair is over and we have hashed that out at nauseum with our therapist.
> 
> ...


First, let me say that men and women cheat for different reasons and no spouse can drive you to an affair whether it be physical or emotional. Your wife more than likely was seeking confirmation, someone that admired her and could show that. 

Just from this quick little qlimpse of an example as to why your wife became angry, I can say my reaction would have been the same had my husband said I was being "snippy." Snippy in my opinion is not a kind word. Are you angry? Are you trying to spark your wife and do not realize where your own feelings are coming from? You have reason for anger but to take it out on her in a revengeful way like saying she is "snippy" will not gain you what you want. It will continue to set you apart. She wants emotional closeness and safty with you and that is why she cannot go beyond a certain point in the relationship. I think the two of you need to continue to go to marriage counseling. Give this example to the counselor and see what they say.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

john117 said:


> I'm not that kind of psychologist alas... I help design gadgets, not fix people.
> 
> Besides, much of what I learned for reading people came from my father, a career Army officer... long before I went to college.
> 
> ...


I work in biz operations and use process diagrams, flow charts and similar methodology regularly. That being said, not sure I'd know where to begin when it comes to flow charting the emotional healing of my marriage. 

In response to your questions, I'm confident that both of us would answer yes to the first question and they we are both owning up to our past. It is worth trying to save, but at this point I don't' know how to determine if we can reconcile.


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## Alpinglow (Nov 12, 2015)

AVR1962 said:


> First, let me say that men and women cheat for different reasons and no spouse can drive you to an affair whether it be physical or emotional. Your wife more than likely was seeking confirmation, someone that admired her and could show that.
> 
> Just from this quick little qlimpse of an example as to why your wife became angry, I can say my reaction would have been the same had my husband said I was being "snippy." Snippy in my opinion is not a kind word. Are you angry? Are you trying to spark your wife and do not realize where your own feelings are coming from? You have reason for anger but to take it out on her in a revengeful way like saying she is "snippy" will not gain you what you want. It will continue to set you apart. She wants emotional closeness and safty with you and that is why she cannot go beyond a certain point in the relationship. I think the two of you need to continue to go to marriage counseling. Give this example to the counselor and see what they say.



Funny, I had a long talk with her mother about this last night and she noted a few interesting things. For starters she thinks her daughter (my wife) can be very snippy and has noticed it herself. She is urging me not to put all this on myself as she thinks it is a mid life crisis of sorts. I believe it is much deeper than that and I have a lot more accountability that she wants to believe. That being said....how you you keep your cool and not be snippy when you are being snipped at? The double standard is tough here.

She also mentioned that she thought her daughter was suffering from a feeling of not being valued. I am going to put some thought behind that and see how I can address it. Obviously, I also need to finish my transformations and change my outlook entirely about how I see and interact with my wife. Just feels scary knowing that she isn't being held to the same standard and its all on me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

By believing that when you roll with the pigs, you also get dirty.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"That being said....how you you keep your cool and not be snippy when you are being snipped at? The double standard is tough here."

It isn't the first word that starts an argument, it's the second. You can do what my husband did when I got snippy - put a surprised hurt look on your face, stick your hands in your pockets, turn around and walk away. Made me feel like crap.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You flowchart specific discussions and points you want to investigate... not the relationship in itself. The difficulty arises from creating discussion points ahead of time and thinking of possible outcomes and mapping those outcomes to behaviors. 

One or two are inconclusive but over a period this way produces useful insights. The objective is more to find out real reasons behind her behaviors, not necessarily to change her behaviors. You need information and this is a good way to get it.

Form a hypothesis and take small steps to prove or disprove it. It's not as easy as it sounds but if you act in baby steps...

For example. The obvious question of whether she likes your company. Do a few activities you know she likes a lot and you don't necessarily do. Be a trooper and do them. Observe before and after. Do it a few times and see if attitude improved. Etc.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> It seems to me that she's getting something out of the status quo which I find a bit distasteful.


Don't you often mention how your relationship with your wife isn't 100% John? So what are you getting your out the status quo and should we find it distasteful? Otherwise, why haven't you left yet?



> During the years of your misbehaving, did you ever consider what she did to trigger those reactions from you??


When male posters complain about wives who are emotionally/verbally abusive, they are labeled BPD/Bi-Polar and whatever other cause du jour mental illness is the hotspot at the moment. If men self-confess to finding out they were abusive the real question is ... how was it the wife's fault somehow. Obviously, men only behave badly if they are "triggered."

Ugh.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

People behave badly sometimes, period. The question posed could provide the OP with insight into why he triggers. Did her smirk make him feel less than so he erupted, or did her tone of voice make him feel like he was back in parochial school and afraid of the ever-present ruler and so on. He can learn to control his triggers if he can put a reason to them.

Sometimes, a person (his wife) may not be thinking about the spouse when they get a tone in the voice or a smile/smirk on their face. We're all multitasking in our heads.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Starstarfish said:


> Don't you often mention how your relationship with your wife isn't 100% John? So what are you getting your out the status quo and should we find it distasteful? Otherwise, why haven't you left yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm getting a nice six figure income from her just like mine, to help pay for college😂 plus I get to have a near 100% say in my daughters lives. Had I divorced five years ago wifey would likely have taken her share and returned home, leaving me with two private college tuitions. And she would have custody, as our esteemed family court is rather anti-male... is it distasteful? Yep. And I don't care. In 11 months it's game over. 

As far as mental health, in my wife's case at least I have a diagnosis from a PhD therapist done during our FC days... her response was "can you die from BPD"? Umm no. "Ok good". No further action.


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