# Date night coming up, waiting for the customary excuse



## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

We have a date tonight, kids not around. Usually hear the excuse about an hour or two before we leave. I hate it, it is like, 'Bingo, there it is'. Last date night, I sort of called her on it and said, 'oh, that's hurting again, seemed ok for the last couple of weeks since I haven't heard any complaints about it since the last date night'.

Ok, she knows I get the picture, so why keep reminding me and making me feel repulsive.

Here's the deal, don't even care for sex that much, I just want to enjoy some intimate company. How can I curtail this pending excuse. How do I 'man' up here. I've been good at it before, it seems I just need to be in the right kind of 'f it' state of mind and stay positive...I just want us to get along without all this past CSA making things miserable...


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable - here it is. We have apparently told some family friends we will go to their fathers 80th birthday tonight - wtf - that what we are doing on a rare night alone - forget about he reservations for dinner I made. This is bs and nothing else ... I am not going to this f'ing party no way
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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

What is CSA?
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Child sexual abuse
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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

You married a woman who was a victim of child abuse? Is that it? That is bound to create problems with intimacy. Was she always like this or she only began after the wedding?


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## east2west (Oct 19, 2012)

Were these date nights your idea or hers?

I would put a stop to date nights if there is a pattern of them not working.

I'd wouldn't go to the birthday party. Send her without you and make some plans on your own. Go to barnes and noble if you have to.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

costa200 said:


> You married a woman who was a victim of child abuse? Is that it? That is bound to create problems with intimacy. Was she always like this or she only began after the wedding?


Not always like this. I didn't know absolutely until recently about her past and was very understanding and supportive. The sex issues started to arrive after our kids were born. General intimacy is something difficult for her. When she is able to get past it she is aaaamaaaazing but clearly has no understanding of how it also affects me - ie how starvation feels...
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

east2west said:


> Were these date nights your idea or hers?
> 
> I would put a stop to date nights if there is a pattern of them not working.
> 
> I'd wouldn't go to the birthday party. Send her without you and make some plans on your own. Go to barnes and noble if you have to.


My idea. I usually get a baby sitter or arrange for my parents to take the kids for the night. Last time with the sitter I had the kids at up roses for the return etc. I try hard to make time for us and try to go to similar efforts as I did when we met. I still have those feelings for her. Tonight if she decides to go to this party I am definitely staying behind - which will be a first for me - done with being too nice. Time to take care of me...I just can't believe there is stronger obligation to a party than us. She is the one who told me marriage come first!
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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

So..... update? Did you go to her family party or not?


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Oh what a mess. So when she originally mentioned the party I immediately objected and said no way I made reservations remember. So, she called off the outing to the party and mentioned why don't we just pick something up and have it here. I was happy to do that and things were going great, no excuses nothing! I thought wow, awesome. Here is where it gets ugly and I feel like an idiot even mentioning it. I had purchased a small innocent looking vibrator since I knew that a long time ago (many years ago) I got her one and she loved it. So I give it to her which caused a very bad reaction - 'you call this a gift - what were you thinking' and sort tossed it on the floor. I told her 'well i remember you liked the old one and since I don't seem to satisfy you...' - Then she says 'I am jus not interested (in being satisfied)'. From there she just sort of shut down was in bed fast asleep within 30 minutes. Even a good friend of mine (a woman) is telling me I am an idiot - 'what did you expect'. It's embarrassing even telling a group of strangers. At this point I really feel like just being alone like no other. Nothing much else to say really - try to fix a problem and not even so I fall into a trap but rather build the trap myself and then jump in. I just don't think I am cut out to deal with someone who sees intimacy like this - like an invasion and a threat. I am just not cut out for it...
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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

you said 'well i remember you liked the old one and since I don't seem to satisfy you...'

So the gift was a jab at her for all the rejection she's been handing out.

My suggestion is that you write her a letter. That way you say what you need to say and she cannot get emotional, act out and then stop you from getting your point across.

She is not the only one in this situation who has issues. But she seems to think that because of the issues she gets to stomp around, be a drama queen and seriously deny you and reject you.

Take some time to write this letter. Even bounce it or parts of it off folks here. Let her know exactly how you feel about what she is doing and how she is driving you away.

What she is doing is emotional abuse. I just do not get how anyone thinks they can treat their spouse this way.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks elegirl - I see many recommendations for letters and I have done similar things in te past where I might send an email while at work as the 'letter' so-to-speak. Typically she just won't reply as if she never received it. I have been sitting around thinking deeply and beginning to realize something and beginning to believe this is what in fact is happening. Let me preface it by saying that when we so have sex, generally speaking she is as happy as a lark afterwards. Sometimes she actually palms things (by sometimes I mean very rarely like once or twice a year) and typically these times are amazing - and I say that in all honesty - really fantastic sex - she comments such things as that was one of the best nights if my life etc. Now as I think about it in this context I am beginning to think that actually it is not that she does not want sex - it is that she does not know how to start it and, for her to be in te mood is a complex thing. Here's another example - recently I told her to take a shower with me - I didn't initiate in the shower but now in retrospect I see that she had given me signs she wanted it. Well afterwards, she seemed disappointed. It is kind bizarre but I am coming to the realization that she is not at all uninterested but rather completely clueless how to express wanting it. 

It is so easy to come to the conclusion that I am repulsing her and that she hates sex etc. but I have seen her reading articles about how to enjoy sex more. Keep in mind how messed up her childhood was - it was a disaster really. She is totally afraid of her mother who has instilled all sorts of emotional junk onto her and thy combined with her parents turning a blind eye to sexual abuse I can understand why she can't express herself and that conditions have to be right for her to open up. Anyway I sound like I am defending her bit what I am really trying to so is see the truth here. This is a good good woman - a very kind hearted person. Her sexual behavior is inconsistent with her personality. I always suspected she was abused and was not at all surprised once she told me. 

So back to the theory here. As I look back at times where she is showing interest and I do not initiate, she shows definite signs of disappointment - and when it does happen - clear joy during and after. So yes you are right, this is abuse in my emotions for sure. Is it intentional? No. Does she want to change? I think yes. While I do think a letter is a good way for me to blurt out my feelings, I would rather do it face-to-face. I need to get a foothold on my position however - as mentioned this is not a situation where she does not want it. Her way of expressing herself is not a direct approach and I am beginning to think she'll thank me later for the toy. 

Well this has been a few hours of thought now. I know you too have an issue with emotional abandonment (if I recall your posts correctly) - each situation is unique. For me, it is not a mean spirited thing - it just feels that way big time. 

Let me know what you think about the above. Thanks
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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Ok, made a decision here - the decision to conquer this friggen sex problem, and to conquer it this way (using the new theory above). That means the following

- I am done treating myself like the victim here. Some with it and tired of it.
- ill give myself a little time to sulk privately at times of rejection - then remind myself that although it feels like hell, to get on with it.
- continuing to sulk in public only exacerbates the situation.
- I will not be codependent. Instead I will be supportive.
- I will not back down about my feelings. If I feel I desire affection, I will let it be known and not apologetically. 
- I will blend in activities if my own to balance the sources of happiness.

That's the list for now. Lets see how it goes...
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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Hm. You know she has issues with intimacy and you get her a vibrator?

Oye.

You should have just enjoyed the date the way it was going so it built up in her mind something positive about those nights. Now she could be thinking that you just use those nights for sex and I kindof agree that a sex toy isn't really a romantic/intimate gift.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Hm. You know she has issues with intimacy and you get her a vibrator?
> 
> Oye.
> 
> You should have just enjoyed the date the way it was going so it built up in her mind something positive about those nights. Now she could be thinking that you just use those nights for sex and I kindof agree that a sex toy isn't really a romantic/intimate gift.


Do you have any idea how many romantic nights I have planned as purely romantic nights with flowers babysitters etc. I think once in a while a suggestive thing is alright and considering it used to be one of her favorite toys long ago didnt sem like such a bad idea. At first I felt pretty crappy about the reaction now I am sticking by my decision, not to mention she is in a fantastic mood this morning and been quite warm. I didn't throw a tantrum last night, got over it after pouting a bit - I am so done feeling like I never do anything right - done with it!
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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, I don't think so.

Yes, you planned romantic nights before. That's awesome of you, truly it is 

But she's in a different place than before. She isn't into sex and you buy her a vibrator. I don't get that.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Well she like other things I have gotten for her from the same place and has requested this item or that item in fact not too recently ago gave me a list of ideas to get from there. I told her last time I almost bought this particular item and there was no mention of 'good thing you didn't'...
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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> What she is doing is emotional abuse. I just do not get how anyone thinks they can treat their spouse this way.


Agree completely.

Unfortunately, my experience and what I've read indicates that this is far too common with CSA survivors. Such people are damaged and do not / cannot view marriage as a two-way relationship. They instead view it as a way to get their needs met and have no problem hiding the truth and blame shifting.

Some, like my ex, actually have the notion that they are entitled to preferential treatment from their current partners as reparations for the past wrongs committed against them. Rather than take responsibility for their own health and healing, they make it our responsibility to temper our needs, avoid triggering them, etc.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

KendalMintcake said:


> I just don't think I am cut out to deal with someone who sees intimacy like this - like an invasion and a threat. I am just not cut out for it...


Well, it's good you are defining your limits and what you can and cannot do - that is where boundaries start.

I'll go one step further - you are not cut out to live with a CSA victim who refuses to overcome her past. And, what's more, there is nothing wrong with that. It is her problem, not yours.

I won't diminish the terrible thing that happened to her. But you did not abuse her nor could you have stopped it. It is not your fault and you should not suffer for it. It is her responsibility to bring a healthy self to your marriage, not your responsibility to handle her with kid gloves.

I applaud your desire to be supportive of her, but you must make sure that your support does not cross the line to enabling her dysfunction. You also must make sure that your needs are met. To that end, I think your plan to be around less and have your own activities and interests is a good idea.

If I were you, I would limit your direct support to efforts to get your W the counseling she needs and then, once healthy, making an informed decision as to whether she wishes to participate in your marriage in a manner that meets your needs as well as hers.

I strongly suspect that my ex would not have married me if she had a healthy view of marriage and sexuality, and willing to build her own life rather than look for someone to support her. It seems like having a bad childhood tends to do that to people. Thus, I think it's worth examining whether your W still wants to be with you once she figures out what marriage really is about.


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## KendalMintcake (Nov 3, 2012)

Thanks for the input DTO. Actually she does and is on a pathway to help herself and often (as you may have seen in former replies) makes an effort - as I said she will plan fun nights in occassion and she enjoys it and is vocal about it. The most difficult part is dealing with the downtime. I am learning that we get along so much better the less I encourage her bit the difficulty is gauging how much less because I also refuse to ignore it. Some of the things you say ring home but particularly and similarly I am also supposed to bear her guilt for the lack of affection - that is - if I say 'you are sleeping in a cocoon again' she sees that as an attack and she knows it hurts bit the attack stings her worse and so she goes on the offense basically handing over her guilt to me. That is where it suck. Then after some time she usually gets her mjnd together and does something really nice. What I want to do is get to the point where I don't have to be dealt out guilt before receiving. What seems to be happening is that each time I bring it up, I get better at expressing my needs as opposed to critiquing her behavior and she gets better at calming down and explaining how she feels. At which point I always listen.
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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

KendalMintcake said:


> Thanks for the input DTO. Actually she does and is on a pathway to help herself and often (as you may have seen in former replies) makes an effort - as I said she will plan fun nights in occassion and she enjoys it and is vocal about it. The most difficult part is dealing with the downtime. I am learning that we get along so much better the less I encourage her bit the difficulty is gauging how much less because I also refuse to ignore it. Some of the things you say ring home but particularly and similarly I am also supposed to bear her guilt for the lack of affection - that is - if I say 'you are sleeping in a cocoon again' she sees that as an attack and she knows it hurts bit the attack stings her worse and so she goes on the offense basically handing over her guilt to me. That is where it suck. Then after some time she usually gets her mjnd together and does something really nice. What I want to do is get to the point where I don't have to be dealt out guilt before receiving. What seems to be happening is that each time I bring it up, I get better at expressing my needs as opposed to critiquing her behavior and she gets better at calming down and explaining how she feels. At which point I always listen.


Honestly, I don't think she has healed / is healing nearly enough to make this work. I say this as someone with a seriously screwed up ex (CSA, other childhood neglect and abuse issues).

1) It looks like her tolerance for sex is really low. It's more than not liking it much. Having sex bothers her. So she knows you have a regular need for sex, yet chooses to wait until you make an issue of it to provide. If you take a softer approach to it, she talks you down from sex by telling you how hard it is, etc.

Unless your need is way over the top, a healthy spouse should be able to provide enough to make these repeated discussions and deferrals unnecessary.

And yes, you have to meet her needs. But, her stated needs must be reasonable and appropriate to your situation. So, asking to you romance her, etc. is fine. OTOH, asking you to forego sex for long periods, to refrain from pressuring her for sex, etc. is not reasonable.

2) I have seen no mention of professional help here. It sounds like you have been at this for some while. She simply is not able to overcome the effects of the abuse. So she has a little bit of sex with you, the stress gets to her, and then the sex stops until she recovers from the trauma of having sex with you. What's worse, you may find that her ability to tolerate sex decreases with time. The sex is less and less, and the breaks between sex increases.

She needs counseling to get healthy - now. Yeah it will be painful and take a great deal of time, energy, and possibly money. But it is what she has to do to meet her responsibility of bringing a healthy self to the marriage - just the way it is. You


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

Yes she needs counseling from someone who specializes in treating victims of sexual abuse. It's not going to get better just by thinking about it.
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## kingsfan (Jun 4, 2012)

Date was a good plan, piss poor execution though.

The vibrator wasn't a bad idea either to be honest, but it all comes down to the execution. 

You stood up to her about the birthday party, and what happened? You won. She respected that you drew a line in the sand.

Things were going good, then you whip out the vibrator and imply that she should use it since she clearly doesn't get much satisfaction from you...

Yeah, that'll kill the mood in a hurry. 

What you should have done is just keep proceeding with the evening and see if it would have led to sex. If so, then after sex maybe have a nice talk about it and ask her if she wanted a toy to use and if she said yes, then a few days later surprise her with the vibrator.

It seems like you have understood your mistake, which is good.

I see you have some hurdles in your relationship but I think the biggest hurdle is you. You seem to have a very difficult time communicating your needs directly to your wife. You imply a lot of things, sugget things and even put your foot in your mouth (like this date night) without actually saying what you want to say.

I think writing is a good idea for you, but write the letter and then tell her you want her to read it with you there, so you know she's read it. If she has any questions, you can then answer them as well. And try and prepare yourself for any questions she might have to your letter and ready an answer for those questions in your head. Rehearsh it and try to stick to it as much as possible. 

Clearly your wife is willing to focus on the marriage and will respect you to some degree by how she reacted to you putting your foot down. You have to be willing to do this more often (not all the time though) and you need to learn how to communicate better with her. If there's something she does to prevent you from being comfortable, you need to explain this to her. Pick the right moment too, don't just blurt it out in the middle of an argument. 

Take some time and reevalute what you tell your wife. If you aren't being direct, you can't guarantee the message is getting through and you could be blaming her for something that she doesn't even understand. That's got to stop.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Only one thing to add. Talking about feelings and acting them out are different. 

You said "you are going into your cocoon again" . Finger pointing. 

If instead you had said "I feel like you are going into your cocoon again" then the responsibility of the feeling is placed on you not her and she would have little reason to feel attacked. If she does feel attacked then the answer is simple as you had said you feel that way. 

In other words telling someone to "f off' is not talking about feelings it's expressing them. 

Saying " When you do that it makes me feel like I want to tell you to "f off" is talking about feelings. 

I hope that distinction will clear other pathways for understanding and communication with your wife.


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