# Waywardness and self-degradation



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Forgive me if this doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'm having some confusing and conflicted feelings about the entire subject and trying to express myself properly is difficult. Also, please excuse me if I come across as selfish or ill-advised or totally off-base.

As some of you may have read, I came from SurvivingInfidelity before I found this place, and to be honest, I like this place better. I learned a LOT from SI about how I can help and protect my BH... but one thing I picked up there that I didn't so much like was the way the wayward spouses often lashed themselves over their affair, repeatedly saying how stupid and evil and selfish they were. At first, this really rubbed me the wrong way. I wanted to comfort them. ("Sweetie, no!! You're not a bad person! You made a mistake, but that's not who you are! Don't talk about yourself that way!") I wondered how they could bear to publicly and openly hate themselves like that. 

I (eventually, after being banned for... I don't know, I presume lack of remorse) took it upon myself to learn to accept some of these statements about myself. I _did_ make a very poor choice or two or twenty. I _did_ engage in inappropriate behavior. I _did_ risk destroying the psyche of a man who loved me dearly and would do anything for me, and I _did_ act impulsively and fall in limerance with the idea of a man who didn't really exist. I acted without thinking too much of how my actions would hurt my husband and my family, and to try to run away without warning my husband or telling him first was supremely irresponsible, self-centered, and misguided. And saying that to my BH might help him to heal a little if he knew how much I regretted my actions. And so I have said it to him sincerely.

However, the OM also abused me. He would compare me unfavorably to his adult adopted daughter, whom he would molest in front of me. He tried to coerce me into sexual acts (but thankfully didn't succeed), he tried to control how I dressed, to whom I showed affection, and how I acted. He was manipulative, making veiled threats and frequently telling me that I wasn't worth his time and that I was breaking his heart by not giving in to his sexual and romantic desires. He convinced me that my husband and parents hated me and that I shouldn't trust them. The relationship ended when he bought me a plane ticket and gave me an ultimatum. I didn't want to go with him, but I felt I _had_ to, that I had already crossed too many lines to try to reconcile with my husband, and that even if the OM killed me, I'd be better off dead than divorced and homeless. I was two days away from getting on the plane and condemning myself to a life as the OM's sex slave when my mother found me, distraught, and took me to the hospital.

I understand that focusing mainly on what the OM did to me (as opposed to what I did to my innocent husband, who asked for none of this and who loves me in spite of almost tearing the foundations of his life apart) may be construed by many as selfish. I am still not sure if it is selfish or not to focus on my own pain to the degree that I do. If my husband had nightmares or flashbacks or mind movies post-A I would drop everything and comfort him for as long as he needed. But he has never shown to me that he's had PTSD symptoms or otherwise intrusive thoughts. I have been the one to have post-A nightmares, obsessive self-loathing, mind movies, and flashbacks where I forget where I am for a moment.

The point of my writing this is to say there were definitely parts of the A that I feel okay taking the blame for and owning up to. For example, I shouldn't have allowed the OM to flirt with me. I should have stopped it before it got out of hand and I felt powerless. I should never have flirted back. I shouldn't have started spending so much time with him when we first met. But the rest...?

There are two dominant, and conflicting, cultural beliefs here: "The cheating spouse is always at fault" and "The abused woman is never at fault". And yet I am both at the same time. Where does one facet of my identity begin and the other end? How much of the self-degradation commonly displayed by WS's ("I was so stupid! This was all my own doing. I was/am a horrible person and an uncaring spouse." etc.) actually applies to me? 

I have no idea. The people at SI claimed I was never abused in the first place, which, I must adamantly state, was wrong. It took a LOT of therapy to get to a place where I could accept that the OM was not my KISA and was, in fact, a cruel and manipulative sexual deviant. So I don't feel I can let people- even strangers on a forum- take that progress and healing away from me. But how much of my own self-loathing is actually appropriate?


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Please climb out off you self imposed prison. You are obsessing about something in the past that prevents you from having a pleasant future.

Stop thinking about these things. Please get off this site and all sites that invite painful memories. Get new hobbies that do not involve betrayal and sex.

You will drive your husband away if you keep this up. When? When the bloom of your youth dries up and the mature, yet still flawed wife, looks back at him.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Please climb out off you self imposed prison. You are obsessing about something in the past that prevents you from having a pleasant future.
> 
> Stop thinking about these things. Please get off this site and all sites that invite painful memories. Get new hobbies that do not involve betrayal and sex.
> 
> You will drive your husband away if you keep this up. When? When the bloom of your youth dries up and the mature, yet still flawed wife, looks back at him.


Of all the things I had braced myself to hear, that has to be the one thing I wasn't prepared for. I have ALWAYS been afraid that he'll leave me when I am no longer beautiful. My time on this site- and others, when I was there- is only one small angle of me and my husband. We go out together and talk of happy things. We have dates and watch TV and actually he seems to love most of the suggestions places like this have given me. I make him cards, write him poetry, compose songs for him... talking about the A is one tiny percent of what we do together. He knows about my self-loathing over the A, but he sees little of it. Actually, I'm usually too busy worrying over other things like classes or something to fret over whether I have any morals. It's usually only at night when I can't sleep that I think of things like this...


----------



## CTPlay (Apr 26, 2015)

If you truly love him, let him go and never trouble his world again.

That is the only advice any WW should ever need.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

As a fellow traveler, "I" and [I am sure, others], fear for you. 

You are looking out, we are looking in.

The view "here", for/from each of us, is not a mirror-image. Your words paint a picture that you cannot see. Judgments, right or wrong are formed from pieces that once arranged, make a whole. 

You cannot see, using another's eyes. We must rely on each other's words, facial expressions and body language. If everyone were honest, life would be easier? No, that would be a disaster.....too. 

You sound fragile..........mankind are hammers, life is the anvil.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

CTPlay said:


> If you truly love him, let him go and never trouble his world again.
> 
> That is the only advice any WW should ever need.


I'm not that strong... I mean, if he wanted to be rid of me he could. But I'm not sure how I would survive. Not only would I be destitute and my chances of marrying again greatly diminished, I would also miss him dearly and mourn for the first and only real relationship I've ever had. If I married again after him it wouldn't be for love. Knowing what I know now, I couldn't bring myself to love another man. 

I think I will leave it to him to make the move for D, if he were to want that... That said, he doesn't seem to _want_ to leave me, judging by his affection towards me.


----------



## CTPlay (Apr 26, 2015)

Good luck to both of you then.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> It took a LOT of therapy to get to a place where I could accept that the OM was not my KISA and was, in fact, a cruel and manipulative sexual deviant.


Yes he sure was. And you must have given off victim vibes that he targeted you in the first place. (you might talk with your therapist about that.)



EllaSuaveterre said:


> But how much of my own self-loathing is actually appropriate?


Both experiences - your being manipulated by that sicko, and you betraying your husband, happened and I think you can have feelings about them simultaneously. IMO, You have a right for your outrage at this sicko. But that does not in any way lessen what you did to your husband.

And just because he does not exhibit "signs of PTSD" doesn't necessarily mean anything. Not everyone expresses their feelings the same and I think men in particular can hide their pain. You betrayed his trust and brought that insecurity into his life.

The fact that you seem to be owning what you did to your husband is a good sign that you have a conscience. (I was pretty worried you did not for the first half of your post.) Unless you've just learned the right words to say and don't really care about what you did to him. But feeling guilty is the first sign that you're not irredeemable. The next sign is - what person are you today? 

So I don't think self loathing is helpful. I think the issue is what are you doing now to make sure nothing like that can ever happen again? And how are you acting to reassure your husband that it can never happen again, even if he's not acting concerned? (Do you check in with him frequently if you're separated during the day? Does he have access to your email/social media? Do you make sure you never flirt or talk about personal issues with other men?)

You say you don't do it often but I would try to drop the subject of how abused you were with your husband altogether. It seems it would have to trigger him to have you go to him for comfort over how you were so abused by the man you cheated on him with.

Also, You mentioned you would be "destitute" without your husband. Is there anything you can do to change that? I am wondering if lack of self esteem had to do with why you were so vulnerable to this predator, and if having better money making skills would help there.

Good luck.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I don't know exactly what SI is but yes Ido fully agree taken accountability for the affair is 100% on the wayward. I also cringe when I hear waywards state that they made a mistake and it doesn't define them. I disagree on both parts. 

First is mistake is something done unintentional and without malice. A car accident is a great example as no one that I know of wakes up and says I am purposely wrecking my car today. An affair is Doing something wrong and is intentional. Generally involves several steps of lying a deceit to make it work. Noting unintentional about that.

Second being a cheater is part of your identity. Not necessarily the whole thing but make no mistake that what you did is part of your relationship identity for as long as this relationship lasts and possibly beyond as many betrayed spouses feel as I do that we won't date former cheaters.

Now how much self loathing should you do really isn't up to us but rather your husband who you wronged. When I was betrayed I knew NO amount of apologies would make up for what she did. I lost all respect for her so the only choice for me was to leave. Your husband made another choice. Maybe he doesn't want you to feel bad at all, I really don't know the reconciliation mindset. Have you actually asked him?


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CTPlay said:


> If you truly love him, let him go and never trouble his world again.
> 
> That is the only advice any WW should ever need.


Let who go, @CTPlay?

The idea of the OM?

Or are you one of those "All you waywards are just like my ex-spouse and I hate you all" types?


----------



## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

It's hard to sympathize with a wayward spouse especially when they're downplaying their actions or talking about forgiving themselves. Then when they try to explain it away as being a mistake it really irks me. What a wayward does are MANY premeditate decisions to deceive their spouse.

Now for you to equate the other man "manipulating" you into committing adultery and betraying your family with what a betrayed spouse goes through is really mind boggling. Because all you're doing is making yourself into a victim.

As for self degradation, that's something that I just don't understand. The amount of justifying that a wayward makes for her choices has me shaking my head. Right now there's a thread from single girl justifying being some guy's side piece on LS. She proudly talks about all the wanton acts she performs for this guy portraying it as somehow more pure than what the OM has with his girlfriend. Talk about a rationalization hamster. That was going to be you if your mother hadn't intervened.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I have ALWAYS been afraid that he'll leave me when I am no longer beautiful.


The bad news is if he loves you only for your looks, its likely. In respect to, ""The abused woman is never at fault". And yet I am both at the same time. Where does one facet of my identity begin and the other end?" If I'm reading this right it sounds like if you consider yourself abused by this cat, it was voluntary on your part. You could have walked any time. Like my granddaddy would have said, "the ole boy didn't exactly have you chained to a tree".


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jsmart said:


> It's hard to sympathize with a wayward spouse especially when they're downplaying their actions or talking about forgiving themselves. Then when they try to explain it away as being a mistake it really irks me. What a wayward does are MANY premeditate decisions to deceive their spouse.
> 
> Now for you to equate the other man "manipulating" you into committing adultery and betraying your family with what a betrayed spouse goes through is really mind boggling. Because all you're doing is making yourself into a victim.
> 
> As for self degradation, that's something that I just don't understand. The amount of justifying that a wayward makes for her choices has me shaking my head. Right now there's a thread from single girl justifying being some guy's side piece on LS. She proudly talks about all the wanton acts she performs for this guy portraying it as somehow more pure than what the OM has with his girlfriend. Talk about a rationalization hamster. That was going to be you if your mother hadn't intervened.





VladDracul said:


> The bad news is if he loves you only for your looks, its likely. In respect to, ""The abused woman is never at fault". And yet I am both at the same time. Where does one facet of my identity begin and the other end?" If I'm reading this right it sounds like if you consider yourself abused by this cat, it was voluntary on your part. You could have walked any time. Like my granddaddy would have said, "the ole boy didn't exactly have you chained to a tree".




What I would have been if my mother hadn't intervened is DEAD. Dead, or chained to a radiator somewhere. I must disagree with you and say that I _am_ a victim. It was my choice to start the relationship, and to give it to his flirting the first couple of times. That was all on me, and it was horribly wrong and driven by a severe misunderstanding of the way long-lasting love is supposed to work. That part is my fault. It's why I got into therapy, read several books on infidelity, learned to establish boundaries with people, started checking in on my husband when we're apart, talking openly and deeply with my husband, and started offering to let him read everything I put on the internet.

But after the first couple of times, when I felt it had gone too far and I wanted out, I couldn't get out on my own. The OM had threatened me in ways I won't go into here, and he heavily implied that he'd destroy me if I dared make a single move he didn't approve of. When my mother took me to the hospital I agreed that I wanted to be voluntarily committed, but I called the OM and lied to him, saying I was being forced to go to the hospital, so he wouldn't come after me for disobeying him. I was AFRAID of him. I still am. Terrified actually. And the A was in 2014, and I STILL have a visceral urge to throw up when I think of him. I know I will never break NC because NC with the OM is every bit as much for my own safety as it is for my husband's. I think if I ever say the OM again, he'd hurt me very, very badly.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

WorkingWife said:


> And just because he does not exhibit "signs of PTSD" doesn't necessarily mean anything. Not everyone expresses their feelings the same and I think men in particular can hide their pain. You betrayed his trust and brought that insecurity into his life.


Fair enough, and every so often I will come up to him, and hold him, and tell him I'm so very sorry I allowed such misery to enter his life, and that I want to make him always feel safe with me, somehow, and that I'll never hurt him like that again.



WorkingWife said:


> The fact that you seem to be owning what you did to your husband is a good sign that you have a conscience. (I was pretty worried you did not for the first half of your post.) Unless you've just learned the right words to say and don't really care about what you did to him. But feeling guilty is the first sign that you're not irredeemable. The next sign is - what person are you today?
> 
> So I don't think self loathing is helpful. I think the issue is what are you doing now to make sure nothing like that can ever happen again? And how are you acting to reassure your husband that it can never happen again, even if he's not acting concerned? (Do you check in with him frequently if you're separated during the day? Does he have access to your email/social media? Do you make sure you never flirt or talk about personal issues with other men?)


Well, I'm in therapy, and I'm learning to establish boundaries with other people, and I'm learning to tell the difference between a guy who honestly want to be my friend and who respects my husband and a guy who wants to lift my skirt.

We go out together several times a week, we cuddle pretty much constantly, we talk about both lighthearted things and serious things, and I've offered to read "Not Just Friends" with him. He actually accepted that offer, to my surprise, and we read it together now. He says he likes it and he's learning a lot. I am too.

I text him at least once a day while he's at work. I've allowed him to look at ALL my chat logs (though he's never, to my knowledge, done so) I've offered to tell him my passwords, but he has said it's unwise for me to tell anyone- even him- my passwords. I never flirt with other guys, and when I talk to them about personal things, he is always privy to the conversation. He knows about every sit I visit, every friend I have, and everything I talk about.



WorkingWife said:


> You say you don't do it often but I would try to drop the subject of how abused you were with your husband altogether. It seems it would have to trigger him to have you go to him for comfort over how you were so abused by the man you cheated on him with.


One would think, but I remember once, 6 months or so after DDay, I was skyping with a friend in the living room when a friend asked me to visit the OM's facebook page to recover information about how said friend could help the OM's daughter. I was so horrified at the idea of being anywhere near the OM that I ran into my and my husband's bedroom crying. In a move I'd never seen him make before, my husband sat down at my laptop and- I could hear through the walls- asked said friend how dare he ask me to do that. My husband said that the entire experience with the OM was horrible for _both of us_ and that asking me to look up the OM on FB was cruel. So it's clear he understood that the A and the OM traumatized me, too, and it struck me as particularly touching because he didn't have to acknowledge my emotions at that time, by any means, but he wanted to help heal us both. And I want to help heal us both, too. Also, I'm not friends with the guy on Skype anymore.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Another thing that I thought I'd mention for the sake of it is how remarkably well-adjusted my BH is to all of it. If it wasn't for the fact that I don't believe reconciliation is ever a finished work, I'd call us reconciled. He told me a couple weeks ago that he has forgiven me, that he trusts me completely, and that the idea of another A happening was ludicrous to him! I'm sure you know how rare that is!! I mean, it's astonishing!! I am well and fully prepared to have to help my BH periodically through triggers and other unpleasantness for the rest of our lives, but he hasn't really seemed to need the help, at all.

Of course I shower him with love and such whether he "needs it" or not because he's my love and as such he always "needs it", but he doesn't seem to need anything specific relating to reconciliation from the A.


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I know a lot of people look at people who have cheated as just making excuses. And I fully believe that there are WS who just make it seem like it was a mistake, an oops, just get over it. But I think there is a small percentage who really FEEL what they did as well. I know I do. I can’t think of what I did without shame, pain and the constant questions of “who the f*ck ARE you? How could you do that? What is WRONG with you?” There was a time I didn’t want to live from the shame I felt. The embarrassment, the hurt. I destroyed myself. I can’t ever say I’m 100% faithful again. If I date anyone else, I have to tell them what I did. My ONS was not exposed to the masses, but I feel like everyone I see knows what I did. I feel like I have a scarlet letter on my chest. If someone is not nice to me, I wonder if it’s because they know what I did. Every bad thing that happens to me in life I wonder if it’s my karma for what I did. If I feel pain I think “I deserve that”. I am not a religious person, but I often have thoughts of I am deservedly being punished by God for my wrongdoings. 

My OM was a master manipulator as well. Smooth with the ladies, serial cheater, disgusting human being. But since he was a friend and I’d never seen that side of him, just heard he said, she said stuff, I didn’t think anything about it. I trusted him, felt safe around him. And I was safe around him for many years until I wasn’t. Alcohol, hurt feelings, sexual demands being made……I ALWAYS had a choice, but I didn’t fight my way out of any of it. I SAID I didn’t want to, several times. I said it jokingly, straight and concise and angrily. But at the end of the day, I still did it and I didn’t stop until 30 seconds after I started. It doesn’t matter that I stopped, it only matters that I started. That I gave in to whatever you want to call it. My evil side, manipulation, being drunk or just flat out that I’m a horrible person that didn’t care who I hurt. 

I don’t understand how people who cheat can forgive themselves. I can understand the rationalizations because it’s human nature to rationalize bad things and not many people have the balls to look deep within themselves and say “I AM A SH*TTY HUMAN BEING!” Excuses are easier. Reasons are easier. Blame is easier. Delusion is easier. 

My husband is a cheater too. The differences between us are tremendous. I did something one time 3 years ago and stopped. He did it as recently as 12 days ago. He did it repeatedly – physical parts unconfirmed, emotional parts confirmed many times over. 12 days ago and he told me last night during a text argument I just needed to let it go. But 3 years ago on my own part and I haven’t begun to let it go. The pain of what he’s done has been tremendous. The pain of what *I* did is worse. I cannot control what he does. I cannot make HIM be faithful. I cannot make HIM get it. But I could’ve controlled me. I could’ve walked away and didn’t. Yes he failed me, but I failed MYSELF worse, because I was in control of me and made the worst decision of my life. I can walk away from him, I can’t escape ME.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> I know a lot of people look at people who have cheated as just making excuses. And I fully believe that there are WS who just make it seem like it was a mistake, an oops, just get over it. But I think there is a small percentage who really FEEL what they did as well. I know I do. I can’t think of what I did without shame, pain and the constant questions of “who the f*ck ARE you? How could you do that? What is WRONG with you?” There was a time I didn’t want to live from the shame I felt. The embarrassment, the hurt. I destroyed myself. I can’t ever say I’m 100% faithful again. If I date anyone else, I have to tell them what I did. My ONS was not exposed to the masses, but I feel like everyone I see knows what I did. I feel like I have a scarlet letter on my chest. If someone is not nice to me, I wonder if it’s because they know what I did. Every bad thing that happens to me in life I wonder if it’s my karma for what I did. If I feel pain I think “I deserve that”. I am not a religious person, but I often have thoughts of I am deservedly being punished by God for my wrongdoings.
> 
> My OM was a master manipulator as well. Smooth with the ladies, serial cheater, disgusting human being. But since he was a friend and I’d never seen that side of him, just heard he said, she said stuff, I didn’t think anything about it. I trusted him, felt safe around him. And I was safe around him for many years until I wasn’t. Alcohol, hurt feelings, sexual demands being made……I ALWAYS had a choice, but I didn’t fight my way out of any of it. I SAID I didn’t want to, several times. I said it jokingly, straight and concise and angrily. But at the end of the day, I still did it and I didn’t stop until 30 seconds after I started. It doesn’t matter that I stopped, it only matters that I started. That I gave in to whatever you want to call it. My evil side, manipulation, being drunk or just flat out that I’m a horrible person that didn’t care who I hurt.
> 
> ...


Was there ever something in you that, at the time and in the moment, felt incapable of saying no? I know there was with me. During the entire relationship, if it can be called that, I lived in fear- real, literal fear- of displeasing him. And he was always displeased. When he bought me the plane ticket, I was waiting and keeping the secret that I was to get on the plane with the OM for three days. I didn't want to obey him but I was afraid not to. I couldn't eat, drink, or sleep. More than anything, I wished the OM would have changed his mind. I didn't understand that I could have said no to him. If I said no to him, I'd just have to tell my husband what I had done, and then he'd leave me, and I'd be worse than dead. No husband, no OM, no parental support. I'd have nobody and nothing and my only option then, in my mind, was to kill myself.

It turned out that after I went to the hospital, the way out that my mother provided, I told my husband anyway and it didn't turn out so bad. He didn't leave me after all. I was given a second chance. I found out that my husband and my family loved me a lot more than I assumed they did.

I understand that I severely hurt my husband. I understand that the pain I brought to him could have been as bad, or worse, than anything the OM did to me. Infidelity- the thing that I did to the person I was supposed to love more than anyone- causes PTSD and suicide. I could have killed my husband. I get that. I do. I hate myself for that every day.

But what I just can't bring myself to say is that EVERYTHING that transpired in the A was my fault. Saying that would be saying that I deserved the pain and sheer panic that took over my life for those three days. That I deserved to live in fear of the OM for months. That I deserved all the psychological effects the OM brought to me. Yes, I was a terrible and thoughtless person, maybe I still am, but I can't bring myself to say I deserved that. Even as someone who also abused my husband by cheating on him, I still didn't deserve the OM's abuse, right? NOBODY deserves it, right??

Right? 

Please?


----------



## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

To a certain extent I felt like I couldn’t tell him no. But it was never that I was afraid of him. It’s that I’m a people pleaser and I don’t like to let people down. Funny considering all I did WAS let my husband and my family down by saying yes to HIM. Part of it is that I was SO high off of the compliments and I wanted them to continue that that was my currency. There was no sexual attraction. My OM is a potbellied, balding ogre with pigeon toes. The only slightly attractive thing about him was his sense of humor, but I wasn’t attracted to it, that was just the only thing I could’ve said I liked about him – he was funny. Until that night and then he was Mr. Suave complimenting me and stroking my ego and I wanted that so bad I kept encouraging that and feeding into it. So when he demanded I do what I did, I felt like I OWED him for the compliments he’d paid. It was my currency. I didn’t want the sexual act. I just wanted the ego stroking, the high of being desired, but the sex act was how I believed I had to pay for it even though I said several times I didn’t. When he demanded that I do it, I said no, but then I did because I felt like I owed him. That’s a tough one for people to understand. But I guess when you don’t have self worth and you don’t value anything about you, you deem that as something you’re willing to do.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Your BH sounds like a definite keeper. You did what you did but you have genuine remorse for it and are taking measures to get stronger (therapy), reassure your husband, and prevent any possibility of a repeat. I don't think you should dismiss what you did, but there is no point beating yourself up for it for the rest of your life either. You are who you and the wife you are today. So I agree with you that self-degradation is not helpful or appropriate at this point. You learn from your mistakes and move forward stronger and better and careful to not repeat them.


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But what I just can't bring myself to say is that EVERYTHING that transpired in the A was my fault. Saying that would be saying that I deserved the pain and sheer panic that took over my life for those three days. That I deserved to live in fear of the OM for months. That I deserved all the psychological effects the OM brought to me. Yes, I was a terrible and thoughtless person, maybe I still am, but I can't bring myself to say I deserved that. Even as someone who also abused my husband by cheating on him, I still didn't deserve the OM's abuse, right? NOBODY deserves it, right??
> 
> Right?
> 
> Please?


Ella, nobody in your situation deserves abuse. Nevertheless, when you blindly put yourself in harms way, bad things are likely to happen to you. You drew a bad card. Its history, you're a survivor so be thankful for that. You can't control what happen to you but you can control what's within you. If you're truly afraid of this horses azz, there are ways to protect yourself.
Additionally, you perennially beating yourself about the head and shoulders for your past actions is an exercise in futility. No amount of mental self-flagellation is going to rectify anything that happened and even will likely divert energy from your marriage. Your husband apparently forgave you and is willing to hold up his side of the marriage. He wants all of you back and in full vigor; not someone who works themselves up into a depression with constant guilt tripping. 
As far as seeing you remorseful, he may need that but it not what you think. Seeing remorse, if he thinks like the typical man, is a good indication you've learned your lesson and have transformed yourself into someone who no longer sees value or has desire for "activities" and confirmations outside of whats at home and available in his loving arms.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> However, the OM also abused me. He would compare me unfavorably to his adult adopted daughter, *whom he would molest in front of me.*


*Whoah!!! Woah!!!*

STOP!

Are you sure she was an adult?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> *Whoah!!! Woah!!!*
> 
> STOP!
> 
> Are you sure she was an adult?


Positive. she was 35-ish and had slight wrinkles. OM was in his late 60's. A real ogre.


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Positive. she was 35-ish and had slight wrinkles. OM was in his late 60's. A real ogre.


Well then it wasn't molesting. She was letting him have his way with her. Pretty sick. 

Stay off social media Ella. 

Oh...wait...TAM is social media. 

Sigh....


----------



## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Late 60s? 

Really? Do you have a grandpa fetish or something? That's crazy.


----------



## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Was there ever something in you that, at the time and in the moment, felt incapable of saying no? I know there was with me. During the entire relationship, if it can be called that, I lived in fear- real, literal fear- of displeasing him. And he was always displeased. When he bought me the plane ticket, I was waiting and keeping the secret that I was to get on the plane with the OM for three days. I didn't want to obey him but I was afraid not to. I couldn't eat, drink, or sleep. More than anything, I wished the OM would have changed his mind. I didn't understand that I could have said no to him. If I said no to him, I'd just have to tell my husband what I had done, and then he'd leave me, and I'd be worse than dead. No husband, no OM, no parental support. I'd have nobody and nothing and my only option then, in my mind, was to kill myself.
> 
> It turned out that after I went to the hospital, the way out that my mother provided, I told my husband anyway and it didn't turn out so bad. He didn't leave me after all. I was given a second chance. I found out that my husband and my family loved me a lot more than I assumed they did.
> 
> ...


I don't understand why you are debating and worrying about if you deserved the pain and panic associated with your affair.

The simple truth is that you did it and there are consequences associated with that behavior. You are over-thinking the entire thing. Do not dwell on what could have happened to you or your husband, but do not forget either. It is the past. You cannot change it. Unless you feel like doing the same thing again, it is a waste of time and emotions to worry over something that did not happen.

Think of the panic and the pain that took you for three days as a consequence of your actions and don't do it again.

Decide that you will be a better wife to your husband in the future and forgive yourself. I think your husband has. Know that you have learned a lot from the experience and move on to a happier marriage with your husband.

The abuse you suffered from OM is on him, not you. OM is obviously a sadistic bastard who preys on young confused girls. I think you are now smart enough not to put yourself in that situation again. Thank God for you mother who pulled you out before you did irreparable damage to you and the marriage. 

Do not live in the past, but learn from it. Move on.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Late 60s?
> 
> Really? Do you have a grandpa fetish or something? That's crazy.


Yeah. It makes me feel physically ill to picture him (or her) nowadays. I wasn't ever physically attracted to him. Not terribly emotionally attracted either, except for feeling enamoured of his (alleged) wealth and religious status (We shared the same religion and he was a priest of sorts). 

Honestly, my views of him and his daughter then and my views now are opposite. Back then, I thought he was just sexually and socially liberated, that my husband was planing to leave me, that my parents were untrustworthy, and that I was just being paranoid/unreasonable/crazy to fear him. Now, I'm aware he was a pervert and a creep, he led me to distrust my family in order to render me helpless, and my fear of him was justified. I often wonder if the woman got out okay. She always appeared small and terrified when I saw her. After some critical thinking in therapy, it occurred to me that physically, his daughter looked JUST LIKE ME, only I was over 10 years younger. It was obvious the OM just wanted fresh prey. -shudder-


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> I don't understand why you are debating and worrying about if you deserved the pain and panic associated with your affair.
> 
> The simple truth is that you did it and there are consequences associated with that behavior. You are over-thinking the entire thing. Do not dwell on what could have happened to you or your husband, but do not forget either. It is the past. You cannot change it. Unless you feel like doing the same thing again, it is a waste of time and emotions to worry over something that did not happen.
> 
> ...


I agree, I suppose... Although the A itself was in 2014, it's only over the past 6 months or so that I've been willing to admit that what I had done was adultery, and try to really reconcile with my husband. Previously, my therapy was primarily focused on convincing me that I was now safe, that the OM wouldn't damn me to hell or something (he was a priest) and on convincing me that the OM had abused me in the first place. 

Usually it's the other way around, but maybe my BH is much further along in the "acceptance" timeline than I am


----------



## drifter777 (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm not sure an infidelity forum is the right place for your story. Most BH's won't care what kind of "abuse" you tolerated with another man - they just see you as a cheater who got what you deserve. That's not fair - I think you have mental and emotional issues that very few of us can relate to or offer legitimate feedback to. Of course you are free to post whatever and wherever you like - I just don't think you are going to get much understanding or satisfaction on an infidelity forum.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Ella,

Do you have a full-time job?


----------



## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Previously, my therapy was primarily focused on convincing me that I was now safe, that the OM wouldn't damn me to hell or something (he was a priest) and on convincing me that the OM had abused me in the first place.


Did you think you were required by God to follow his orders because he was/is a "priest"? Did you fear damnation if you defied him? What religion is this?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> Did you think you were required by God to follow his orders because he was/is a "priest"? Did you fear damnation if you defied him? What religion is this?


I am a Pagan, and so was he. He was a high priest who claimed to have direct communication with the gods. Not an uncommon claim for a high priest to make, but he claimed he needed a new woman in his life to, in essence, fill the role his daughter once held before she became too ill to do so. I wasn't sure what role that was, but I'd always wanted to be a priestess or something similar... but then when things started getting weird and sexually inappropriate, he said I couldn't back out because I had a duty to the Gods, that he had already ritually bound his soul to mine, and that without his protection my afterlife- and my current life- were destined to be filled with trauma and tragedy. He never did quite specify what would happen to me, but it would be something, it would be horrible, and it would be because I didn't listen to him.

When he first mentioned this, I asked, "Are you threatening me??" and he said, "Of course not. I'm just explaining the natural consequences of going without my protection. I would never hurt you. I just won't be obligated any longer to stop things from harming you. By the way, the last person who was under my protection and then decided to step outside of it was so miserable he committed suicide."

To this day, I still catch myself wondering if he really did curse me when things go uncannily wrong in my life. Cognitively, I know it's nonsense, but subconsciously, the thought still occasionally pops up.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

RWB said:


> Ella,
> 
> Do you have a full-time job?


I do not, no, but I am a full-time student.


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I am a Pagan, and so was he. He was a high priest who claimed to have direct communication with the gods. Not an uncommon claim for a high priest to make, but he claimed he needed a new woman in his life to, in essence, fill the role his daughter once held before she became too ill to do so. I wasn't sure what role that was, but I'd always wanted to be a priestess or something similar... but then when things started getting weird and sexually inappropriate, he said I couldn't back out because I had a duty to the Gods, that he had already ritually bound his soul to mine, and that without his protection my afterlife- and my current life- were destined to be filled with trauma and tragedy. He never did quite specify what would happen to me, but it would be something, it would be horrible, and it would be because I didn't listen to him.
> 
> When he first mentioned this, I asked, "Are you threatening me??" and he said, "Of course not. I'm just explaining the natural consequences of going without my protection. I would never hurt you. I just won't be obligated any longer to stop things from harming you. By the way, the last person who was under my protection and then decided to step outside of it was so miserable he committed suicide."
> 
> To this day, I still catch myself wondering if he really did curse me when things go uncannily wrong in my life. Cognitively, I know it's nonsense, but subconsciously, the thought still occasionally pops up.


Please don't take this wrong, but this explains a LOT! I was having a lot of trouble envisioning a religious leader in a typical organized religion doing some of the stuff you described. Now, don't get me wrong--priests, ministers, pastors, rabbis, imams, monks, and nuns can be creepy and have sexual fetishes and whatnot like any human, but it sort of didn't fit and I couldn't figure it out. And I'm not saying that it fits with pagans, either--again don't get me wrong! But I do know that the Wiccan view of sexuality is much more natural and magically powerful than the sort of prudish view of many of the organized religions. 

I have a great thought: it sounds to me like this particular priest is REALLY whacked out in left field, but even if he did curse you, what's to stop you from doing a sexual protection of your own with you and your husband? I mean, what could be stronger than the two of you creating a barrier to all "dark thoughts" by bringing in the Charge of the Goddess and drawing down the moon? I mean, I get it--he claims to be some sort of special "priest" but given that being a Wiccan means "...and it harm none" I would say he's warped to the point of not even being pagan anymore! Thus his curse could not possibly carry the power of the two of you bonded together, protecting your bond with love and light! Not even close! 

If you're in a coven, maybe you can ask your leader for direction/help, but if you're a solo practitioner, what I used to do is make my own ritual following "typical styling" if that makes sense, because that makes it my own whilst also simultaneously still staying within the bounds of the ritual template. That's STRONG and it's YOURS. 

________________________
Finally--note to self so as not to confuse everyone here on TAM. When I was young (20s) I was most definitely a Wiccan; I married a Jewish man and converted in my 30's; exH and I divorced when I was late 30's; in my 40's I got into New Age-Angels-Crystals, etc; and now here I am in my 50's and I'm back to being a Christian! LOL Crazy...I know!


----------



## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

OK. I am not well versed in the specifics of either Wiccan nor Pagan. I don't even know if they are the same or different. But I do know that ALL religions have their fair share of individuals who claim to have powers given by God(s) and use this to get others to submit to their will. And unfortunately it is easy to blame a curse or a spell for what is just bad luck.

These people revel in having power over you when in truth you have ALL the power - don't let them do this to you.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> OK. I am not well versed in the specifics of either Wiccan nor Pagan. I don't even know if they are the same or different. But I do know that ALL religions have their fair share of individuals who claim to have powers given by God(s) and use this to get others to submit to their will. And unfortunately it is easy to blame a curse or a spell for what is just bad luck.
> 
> These people revel in having power over you when in truth you have ALL the power - don't let them do this to you.


Oh, I don't anymore. This man left my life for good- thanks to my mother calling the police and then calling him and demanding he never contact me again lest she file a restraining order- in November of 2014. I promise I'm usually more "over it" than I have been recently. 

And @Affaircare, what a beautiful idea!! We have a (re-rescheduled) date night on NYE and I'm _absolutely_ doing that. Thanks so much for the suggestion!


----------



## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@EllaSuaveterre, 

This weekend is waxing moon, not full moon, but just barely! The 28th, 29th and 30th are the dark moon so it's just squeeking into the waxing crescent, so this weekend would be perfect for "attracting" type magic. Draw on the building energy and light to encircle you and your love and marriage in protection. PERFECT! Then in the full moon, draw down that moon for full energy, full power, full LIGHT!


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

P.S.

No magician in the world can cast a spell over my wife because she is protected by my "wand"!😉


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

WorkingWife said:


> You say you don't do it often but I would try to drop the subject of how abused you were with your husband altogether. It seems it would have to trigger him to have you go to him for comfort over how you were so abused by the man you cheated on him with.


QFT


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

LosingHim said:


> *To a certain extent I felt like I couldn’t tell him no. But it was never that I was afraid of him. It’s that I’m a people pleaser and I don’t like to let people down. Funny considering all I did WAS let my husband and my family down by saying yes to HIM.* Part of it is that I was SO high off of the compliments and I wanted them to continue that that was my currency. There was no sexual attraction. My OM is a potbellied, balding ogre with pigeon toes. The only slightly attractive thing about him was his sense of humor, but I wasn’t attracted to it, that was just the only thing I could’ve said I liked about him – he was funny. Until that night and then he was Mr. Suave complimenting me and stroking my ego and I wanted that so bad I kept encouraging that and feeding into it. So when he demanded I do what I did, I felt like I OWED him for the compliments he’d paid. It was my currency. I didn’t want the sexual act. I just wanted the ego stroking, the high of being desired, but the sex act was how I believed I had to pay for it even though I said several times I didn’t. When he demanded that I do it, I said no, but then I did because I felt like I owed him. That’s a tough one for people to understand. But I guess when you don’t have self worth and you don’t value anything about you, you deem that as something you’re willing to do.


Then you're not a people pleaser, it's something else and worth exploring.

I'm sure my first husband looked like a people pleaser to others. To me he was someone who was passive aggressive ie saying yes to others while deprioritising his wife; witholding information from me claiming that he "forgot" and effectively that his sight and hearing were selective.

Maybe this should be filed under "cognitive dissonance." 

Saying that you're a people pleaser sounds nice and gives an excuse.......... but you didn't work to please everybody. 

Why the selectivity? That answer here would interesting and revealing.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

NextTimeAround said:


> *I'm sure my first husband looked like a people pleaser to others. To me he was someone who was passive aggressive ie saying yes to others while de-prioritizing his wife; *


Whoa! spot on.

Does this ring the bell with my fWW... people pleaser, passive aggressive, closet vanity that loves the thrill of the next complement. The hardest word my wife ever said to anyone besides me... NO.

I think this personality complex is primed to have an affair. Disappointing someone other than spouse that will showers them with compliments, warranted or not is a sin.

Nutshell... DD my wife begs for mercy, one chance, do anything. I'm emotionally gone, checking my options. She says she is done with AP and will send an email saying it's over and never contact her again... Right?

*"Can't do this now."
"I afraid I'll lose my children forever."
"I'm sorry I messed things up."
"I'm ok."
"Please forgive me."*

:slap:

I was like WTF. In retrospect should not of expected anything less. Says she didn't want to hurt his feelings. She really didn't get it.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I think you can feel bad about what happened to you, but I think you must also acknowledge that you failed in your job to protect him. Where you were wrong was that in the beginning before the abuse your own gratification was more important to you then his. Marry is a gift, it means you give up you and life for your spouse. That means that your own wants and needs should not take precedent. You have a right to them but they should not be paramount. 

In truth by going down the selfish path you kind of lead yourself to the abuse. It was a trap that you set up for yourself. A lot of WS do this. But they all do it for selfish reasons. No one is entitled to more then one person in their lives. If you had had your eyes on your husband and your marriage you would have never gotten there. That is what you should concentrate on.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> But after the first couple of times, when I felt it had gone too far and I wanted out, I couldn't get out on my own. The OM had threatened me in ways I won't go into here, and he heavily implied that he'd destroy me if I dared make a single move he didn't approve of. When my mother took me to the hospital I agreed that I wanted to be voluntarily committed, but I called the OM and lied to him, saying I was being forced to go to the hospital, so he wouldn't come after me for disobeying him. I was AFRAID of him. I still am. Terrified actually. And the A was in 2014, and I STILL have a visceral urge to throw up when I think of him. I know I will never break NC because NC with the OM is every bit as much for my own safety as it is for my husband's. I think if I ever say the OM again, he'd hurt me very, very badly.



Ella all of those things are horrible and I feel deep sympathy for you, but you need to acknowledge that at that point you were already a cheater. No of those things caused you to cheat because you had already cheated. The bad stuff that happened to you was a direct result of you going down the path you did. Not that you deserved it but in a sense you opened up the door and let a bad person into you and your husbands life.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Was there ever something in you that, at the time and in the moment, felt incapable of saying no? I know there was with me. During the entire relationship, if it can be called that, I lived in fear- real, literal fear- of displeasing him. And he was always displeased. When he bought me the plane ticket, I was waiting and keeping the secret that I was to get on the plane with the OM for three days. I didn't want to obey him but I was afraid not to. I couldn't eat, drink, or sleep. More than anything, I wished the OM would have changed his mind. I didn't understand that I could have said no to him. If I said no to him, I'd just have to tell my husband what I had done, and then he'd leave me, and I'd be worse than dead. No husband, no OM, no parental support. I'd have nobody and nothing and my only option then, in my mind, was to kill myself.
> 
> It turned out that after I went to the hospital, the way out that my mother provided, I told my husband anyway and it didn't turn out so bad. He didn't leave me after all. I was given a second chance. I found out that my husband and my family loved me a lot more than I assumed they did.
> 
> ...


You are responsible for your actions that is all. You are not responsible for how others treated you. Everyone is entitled to be safe and treated with respect. Everyone even child molesters (not in anyway comparing you to that) are deserving of human dignity, maybe not life in my opinion but dignity.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Ella all of those things are horrible and I feel deep sympathy for you, but you need to acknowledge that at that point you were already a cheater. No of those things caused you to cheat because you had already cheated. The bad stuff that happened to you was a direct result of you going down the path you did. Not that you deserved it but in a sense you opened up the door and let a bad person into you and your husbands life.


No, I get that part. I started it by responding to his flirting. I understand that well enough.

Even my missing him at the end, before I went to therapy to process everything that happened, was still cheating.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I think you can feel bad about what happened to you, but I think you must also acknowledge that you failed in your job to protect him. Where you were wrong was that in the beginning before the abuse your own gratification was more important to you then his. Marry is a gift, it means you give up you and life for your spouse. That means that your own wants and needs should not take precedent. You have a right to them but they should not be paramount.
> 
> *In truth by going down the selfish path you kind of lead yourself to the abuse. It was a trap that you set up for yourself. A lot of WS do this. *But they all do it for selfish reasons. No one is entitled to more then one person in their lives. If you had had your eyes on your husband and your marriage you would have never gotten there. That is what you should concentrate on.


Interesting thought since we can all think of a chain of relationships, kind of like a centipede where each segment down the line takes all the shyt from upstream.

That's one thing that I do shy away from. Don't hang out with me and waste my time while you complain about how you let someone else shyte on you. But I can think of a few situations in which guys tried that on me.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you are way too hard on yourself, Ella. That man was a predator, and you his naive prey.

Your husband is really lucky you are still here, and alive. So glad your mother rescued you!


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> No, I get that part. I started it by responding to his flirting. I understand that well enough.


So when you are thinking about the fact that you cheated, think about that part. You can do that and also be upset about what happened to you which was a consequence but in no way your responsibility.

I think the one poster said it right. This is a part of your history, like they say on SI, own your sh!t, don't let it own you. You have moved on, your job now as a wife is to be the best wife you can be. When you fixate on the past you are not doing that, you are still being the girl who got caught up in the mess because you emotional and mental energy is still there. 

Look we all have things in our lives that we have done that we are ashamed of. I know you are not a Christian but I think the scripture


Romans 3:23

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,​
is applicable. This is why many of us Christians believe the way we do. You are human meaning you are fallible. We all have made bad choices, many of us horrible ones that have hurt other people. Part of having honor is acknowledging when you do wrong and trying to do better. The way you strive to goodness is in the struggling to be better not in continuing to degradate yourself for the actions of the past. If you are stuck in the past you are not doing. Goodness requires DOING because our nature is to be selfish and not good. Goodness is like exercise. You either work or you get out of shape. 

Your husband deserves a wife who is present in her life and his, not ruminating of the past. You know my feeling about R, but your husband has chosen it for himself, and you have chosen it to accept it. If you want to honor that then you need to stop thinking about this like you are. You have said many times in the past he has told you and shown you he forgives you. That is even more important then you forgiving yourself because he was innocent. If the innocent party whose blood was spilled in all this is willing to forgive you what right do you have not to forgive yourself. 

As I said in my other post, marriage is giving yourself to him. You can't truly give yourself until you let go of yourself. Your husband wants you even with what you did. Accept it, and give yourself to your life with him, presently. Accept that he wants you bad decisions and all. Strive to be the best wife you can be, strive to be over faithful to him, if that is possible, to make it up to him. And most of all accept that you failed and that is OK, again we all have.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Goodness requires DOING because our nature is to be selfish and not good. Goodness is like exercise. You either work or you get out of shape.
> 
> Your husband deserves a wife who is present in her life and his, not ruminating of the past. You know my feeling about R, but your husband has chosen it for himself, and you have chosen it to accept it. If you want to honor that then you need to stop thinking about this like you are. You have said many times in the past he has told you and shown you he forgives you. That is even more important then you forgiving yourself because he was innocent. *If the innocent party whose blood was spilled in all this is willing to forgive you what right do you have not to forgive yourself.*


That's incredibly touching. Yes, I seldom bring it up to him anymore. Next step I suppose is in changing my thought patterns to get out of shame spirals. I wish that part came more naturally to me. I'm gonna go cuddle the daylights out of my sweet husband. Thanks. :smile2:


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> That's incredibly touching. Yes, I seldom bring it up to him anymore. Next step I suppose is in changing my thought patterns to get out of shame spirals. I wish that part came more naturally to me. I'm gonna go cuddle the daylights out of my sweet husband. Thanks. :smile2:


Does he do anything to help you with your shame?


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Does he do anything to help you with your shame?


Well, he doesn't seem to blame me for what happened. Whenever I do mention it, which is rarer now, he says, "Just think of it as a hard lesson learned."


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Well, he doesn't seem to blame me for what happened. Whenever I do mention it, which is rarer now, he says, "Just think of it as a hard lesson learned."


That's good. He may want to do more to help you heal, though. Shame can be really tough to overcome.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> That's good. He may want to do more to help you heal, though. Shame can be really tough to overcome.


I wonder what else he could do. And I wonder whether I should even think that way. It seems to be common knowledge on relationship/infidelity forums that the BS shouldn't have to help the WS with emotional labor related to the A.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I wonder what else he could do. And I wonder whether I should even think that way. It seems to be common knowledge on relationship/infidelity forums that the BS shouldn't have to help the WS with emotional labor related to the A.


I disagree. Sometimes the betrayed spouse is the needier one and sometimes the wayward spouse is the needier one. You just have to focus on whoever's need at whatever time is greater.

As far as how he could help you, I think his sharing with you that if he had been born into the same situation you were and had your personality and had your same weaknesses and met that same man at the same time under the same conditions, he might've ended up doing the same thing.

You are not some specially evil person, Ella, not in any way. 

Honestly, I think if we knew more of the reasons why most people cheat, we would end up being a lot more compassionate than judgmental.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I wonder what else he could do. And I wonder whether I should even think that way. It seems to be common knowledge on relationship/infidelity forums that the BS shouldn't have to help the WS with emotional labor related to the A.


Again this is not moving forward. Moving forward is not focusing on the past.


----------



## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I don't propose to completely understand your situation, but there is some advice I would give to anyone in your situation. There are three phrases I want you to say and use, first is "I am sorry". I am sure you have already said this but it is not a bad thing to do again to your husband for the things that you did to him. The next phrase is "I love you", again this is to your husband, though he seems to be progressing well, it can't be said too often. The last phrase is "I forgive you", this is something you need to say to yourself. There is nothing to gain by beating yourself up everyday, you need to understand and own what you did, but at some point you have to forgive yourself. This should not define your life, own it, learn from it, forgive yourself, move on to better things.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I wonder what else he could do. And I wonder whether I should even think that way. It seems to be common knowledge on relationship/infidelity forums that the BS shouldn't have to help the WS with emotional labor related to the A.


Of course. If we were on a domestic violence forum you would be appalled at the suggestion the the victim of that in some was take responsibility for being hit. They should never do such a thing. 

Affairs are emotional abuse. Same concept .

So not he doesn't take responsibility for the affair but that doesn't mean that if he has chosen to stay and forgive that he isn't willing to support and help you with your issues. He clearly loves you to forgive you all this right?


----------



## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Ella, one of my favorite saying is "you can fix a problem you refuse to see". I've already addressed this in an earlier post in respect to you saying the following:

_"The people at SI claimed I was never abused in the first place, which, I must adamantly state, was wrong. It took a LOT of therapy to get to a place where I could accept that the OM was not my KISA and was, in fact, a cruel and manipulative sexual deviant. So I don't feel I can let people- even strangers on a forum- take that progress and healing away from me. But how much of my own self-loathing is actually appropriate? "_

If he sent you a plane ticket to be with him, I have to conclude you lived at least several hundred miles. He may be a cruel and manipulative sexual deviant and if you consider yourself abused, it was willful on your part. You or anybody else would have a hard time getting sympathy with, "ever time I communicated with this cat in this long distance relationship he said awful things and I just didn't know how to stop this abuse"

Because of you mother, you dodged a bullet but my observation is youre still trying to lay the responsibility for your participation on to some else. You're not owning it. This cat was not like a disease you catch. He was like a drug you willingly took an got hooked on. I think you're doing like I do occasionally; wondering how you could have possibly been that stupid and obsessing on what could have happened due to that stupidity. Hey, I do multiple autopsies on my stupid actions all the time and feel worse with each iteration. The good news is everybody seems to be ok with your past "misdemeanors" except you and the only other punishment you'll suffer is controlled by you.


----------



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> If he sent you a plane ticket to be with him, I have to conclude you lived at least several hundred miles. He may be a cruel and manipulative sexual deviant and if you consider yourself abused, it was willful on your part. You or anybody else would have a hard time getting sympathy with, "ever time I communicated with this cat in this long distance relationship he said awful things and I just didn't know how to stop this abuse"
> 
> Because of you mother, you dodged a bullet but my observation is youre still trying to lay the responsibility for your participation on to some else. You're not owning it. This cat was not like a disease you catch. He was like a drug you willingly took an got hooked on. I think you're doing like I do occasionally; wondering how you could have possibly been that stupid and obsessing on what could have happened due to that stupidity. Hey, I do multiple autopsies on my stupid actions all the time and feel worse with each iteration. The good news is everybody seems to be ok with your past "misdemeanors" except you and the only other punishment you'll suffer is controlled by you.


I understand you probably don't see how I could have felt out of control of the situation and in over my head with someone who couldn't even physically harm me. In hindsight, I see that I could have made it stop at any time just by telling him to leave me alone. I can also see that there were many moments before the abuse started for which I must take full responsibility. For example, there was one moment a few days after we met where he told me he didn't like it when I said good things about my husband in front of him. I didn't really think anything of it except maybe he was just insecure, so I stopped talking about my husband to him so as not to hurt his feelings. In hindsight, I see he was just trying to test my boundaries, and I should have told him I would talk about my husband as much as I pleased, OM's feelings be hanged. There were plenty of other things that were 100% my fault too. Things like allowing myself to be captivated by him in the first place, and responding to his attention, and spending any degree of time thinking about how to impress him and get on his good side, so as to have access to his alleged spiritual power.

However, I also think there was a point at which, _at the time_, I could not have undone what I and my poor boundaries had set in motion. Because I didn't see the red flags at the time, it felt like almost overnight he went from being just a nice guy to an abusive control freak. He promised to curse both my earthly life and my afterlife if I ever dared disobey him. By the time I was hospitalized I wanted nothing more than for him to withdraw all his threats and promises and leave me alone. His alleged rewards for my compliance meant nothing to me.I just wanted to not be eternally cursed, forced into suicide, and damned to Tartarus. Even though we never met in person, he did damage my psyche. Two years post-D-day and I was STILL occasionally wondering if the random bouts of bad luck (car accidents, illness, etc) might not be the OM's curse.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I understand you probably don't see how I could have felt out of control of the situation and in over my head with someone who couldn't even physically harm me. In hindsight, I see that I could have made it stop at any time just by telling him to leave me alone. I can also see that there were many moments before the abuse started for which I must take full responsibility. For example, there was one moment a few days after we met where he told me he didn't like it when I said good things about my husband in front of him. I didn't really think anything of it except maybe he was just insecure, so I stopped talking about my husband to him so as not to hurt his feelings. In hindsight, I see he was just trying to test my boundaries, and I should have told him I would talk about my husband as much as I pleased, OM's feelings be hanged. There were plenty of other things that were 100% my fault too. Things like allowing myself to be captivated by him in the first place, and responding to his attention, and spending any degree of time thinking about how to impress him and get on his good side, so as to have access to his alleged spiritual power.
> 
> However, I also think there was a point at which, _at the time_, I could not have undone what I and my poor boundaries had set in motion. Because I didn't see the red flags at the time, it felt like almost overnight he went from being just a nice guy to an abusive control freak. He promised to curse both my earthly life and my afterlife if I ever dared disobey him. By the time I was hospitalized I wanted nothing more than for him to withdraw all his threats and promises and leave me alone. His alleged rewards for my compliance meant nothing to me.I just wanted to not be eternally cursed, forced into suicide, and damned to Tartarus. Even though we never met in person, he did damage my psyche. Two years post-D-day and I was STILL occasionally wondering if the random bouts of bad luck (car accidents, illness, etc) might not be the OM's curse.


Wow, he was quite the abuser. So manipulative and predatory. How old were he and you at the time?

I am so sorry he took advantage of your naivete, Ella.  And I am so sorry for the scars on your psyche. 

Have you talked to anyone in your spiritual group about your experience? Have they been able to offer any helpful counsel?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

sokillme said:


> So when you are thinking about the fact that you cheated, think about that part. You can do that and also be upset about what happened to you which was a consequence but in no way your responsibility.
> 
> I think the one poster said it right. This is a part of your history, like they say on SI, own your sh!t, don't let it own you. You have moved on, your job now as a wife is to be the best wife you can be. When you fixate on the past you are not doing that, you are still being the girl who got caught up in the mess because you emotional and mental energy is still there.
> 
> ...


Had a post very similar to this but it glitched.

Well said.


----------

