# Caught Snooping



## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Most know my situation but for those that don't, here it is:

Wife hit me with "I'm unhappy, I don't know what I want etc...." It came out of the blue right after her friend had her afair exposed. My wife could not give me anyhing concrete about why she was feeling this way and she seemed over sympathetic about her friends afair.

After much consideration and advice from here I put a keylogger progtram on the computer to rule out a third party in my my marriage. I also was hoping she would open up to someone else more than me and I could figure out what was going on.

The result was no affair but my wife lied to me about alot of things especially about a bank account with ALOT of money in it.

Last Friday she seemed suspicious and because I didn't totally erase the history on my computer, discovered the program. She acted pissed but didn't say anything so I wasn't sure what she might have found until tonight. She knows everything and confronted me (she was tipsy) and I admitted everything.

I explained that due to the circumstances and the fact that she had no real answer as to why she was unhappy, I had to rule out a third part to our marriage as well as hopefulluy gain some insight as to why she was unhappy since she wasn't opening up to me. She continues to lie about everything and is trying to spin things in a way that makes me look crazy.

She got way upset and left the house tonight. She called me out saying "If I was a real man, I would be the one leaving the house so she could be with the kids".

I'm obviously hurting right now. My babies are in bed and I don't know what the future holds. I love my wife but she is acting so irrational and mean I don't know what to do. Her realithy is so different from the truth.


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## eowyn (Mar 22, 2012)

Other than the Bank Account what else did she lie (and continue to lie) about before she left?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

She’s been lying to you and deceiving you and you’re the one who goes on the defensive to justify yourself! Wake-up!

She has a secret bank account. You have been massively betrayed! And yet still you go on the defensive justifying your actions.

There’ll be a whole lot more to what’s going on, it’s a pity she discovered your snooping. I reckon you should go right into the 180, turn your back on her and blank her.

And then see if she wants to come in from the cold or not. If she doesn’t you know exactly where you stand.

Her reality is HER reality. Her reality is HER truth. You’ve just had a peek inside of it and have seen just a bit of what is going on. Slowly but surely you’ll start to become aware of just how much you have been lied to, deceived, deluded and betrayed.


And it will hurt and maybe it will hurt you a great deal. But the pain will move you to change.


But you are much further ahead now. In that you know for an ABSOLUTE FACT just how much your wife has lied to you, such that you shouldn’t believe a word that comes out of her mouth unless you can independently verify it.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You are so right, she is irrational, and defensive. You caught her in a betrayal of a different kind, but all the same a betrayeal in the marriage.

She is blameshifting. Sure its not the same kind of blameshifting an adultorer would say, but still, calling you out on your man hood is just another defence mechanism liers use to justify the deciet.

Stand your ground and do not tolorate her fitness tests!


You can't control her, but you can control how you behave when your spouses is keeping secrets.

Your actions are a result of her actions and if the shoe were on the other foot, she would do the same thing. She won't admit it, but if we can't protect our selves when the poeple we trust the most decieve us then who can we trust to protect us from more lies and additional emotional pain .

In short, her own actions brought this crap on!!!!!!!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think even with adultery it’s the betrayal and all the lies, blame shifting, deceits, delusions etc. that go with it that hurts the most.


It’s the betrayal that does more damage than anything else. And that betrayal damage is sometimes exceedingly deep and way beyond any repair. “The ship is going down. Abandon ship!”.


But Paulination has a ways to go as yet. Hopefully he can recover but it will take the two of them.


But with her secret account it sounds like her abandonment of the ship started months ago if not longer, she’s already left the ship in her mind, heart and soul and she’s just there in body at the moment. But she even took that away yesterday.


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## MrsKy (May 5, 2012)

I would call her bluff and file divorce papers. Your wife is too comfortable now, so make her uncomfortable!


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

We'll, if you were a real man, one who has seen hidden money in her account, you would defend your home, and refuse to leave so that it can't also be taken from you .... but wait .... you did that!!! As AFEH said, this secret hoarding of money is a big deal. Most rational people would try to look for motive behind such a dangerous thing.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

Women tend to have secret bank accounts because

1) There's a sugar daddy

2) She's planning to leave

3) Possibly a drug habit


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

This is what I keep circling back to--precisely what does it mean to betray a marriage?

Many people think that betrayal can only really happen with a physical affair.

But you are living proof that creating a secret life that is separate from your spouse doesn't even need another breathing human being (that you know of).

It's the LIES that constitute a betrayal of the marriage.

If it were me--this is what I would say
I believe marriage is a melding of two hearts, minds, bodies, and souls.

I believe that there are no secrets in marriage.

When you told me you were so unhappy, I feared the worst, that you had found someone else.

What I found instead was a secret bank account, which makes me think that you have been hiding your true self from me for quite some time.

I love you and want our marriage to work. But part of your unhappiness is that you are hiding your unhappiness from me. You've told me now, but you kept it secret and let it grow until now you've started to build a wall between us.

I am not leaving the house, the kids, or our marriage. If you feel you must leave, that is your choice, but I'm not giving up without a fight, because I love you.

[If you are not in counseling, here is where I'd say, we really need counseling to sort through our issues.]


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## Hank567 (Apr 23, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> This is what I keep circling back to--precisely what does it mean to betray a marriage?
> 
> Many people think that betrayal can only really happen with a physical affair.
> 
> ...



I second this. Do not leave your house. If you move out, she can say that you abandoned her and the kids. Stand your ground. This isn't going to be easy, but if you want to save your marriage, it's necessary.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Do not leave. You are guilty of trying to investigate lies and secrets. Which you found. Btw, she obviously doesn't think her following the links was wrong, which was her checking up on you.

I think you should try calmly pointing out this is what happens when a spouse doesn't tell their SO the truth and hides things. Do not back down, nor apologize for taking steps to protect your family. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

There's no point in you leaving the house because you didn't cause this sh!tty situation! It was her!


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

How can she have a secret bank account with a lot of money in it? You have to report interest income on your taxes...didn't you notice the tax form the bank would have sent you so that you can include the amount on your taxes last month?

Where did the money in the account come from? Does she have a job? If so, that's where she could be emailing another man, not her home computer. Have you checked her cell phone?

Don't leave the house. Your kids need a stable parent, and it's your house. 

Get both of you into counseling right away. She'll never stop lying and spinning stories. There's something underneath this, and it has to come out, whether it's an affair or something else. 

Your marriage didn't get to this point overnight. What's been going on the last few years?


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks for all of the responses. She just got home and went right to bed. Has a nasty disposition at the moment as well.

She is a SAHM and as such, I gave her large sums of money from time to time to pay off debts (from home improvements and such) and instead of doing that, I think she just put alot of it away. She asks for money for her CC and I just give it to her so I don't know the balances which is my fault. She has accumulated the money over many years so I don't think it is walk away money.

The other lies were small in comparison. She lied to me about IMing on facebook late at night, about conversations she's had, things like that.

Then last night after a ****tail she hits me with it. I then hit her with what I knew and the thing went south incredibly fast. Told me she hates me and everything.

What gets me is that I was only trying to get to the truth in our marriage. I needed to rule out a third party and hopefully get some insight to what her thinking was. All I was getting was "I don't know what I want, I'm not happy..." Nothing I could really work with.

I felt horrible doing it but it came down to asking myself a simple question, am I willing to do whatever it takes to save my marriage? The answer was yes so I did it.

Turns out it was warranted. She could have keylogged my computer and she would have gotten nothing. No secret accounts, no IM other women, no trash talking her to my friends nothing at all.


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## JustWaiting (Jun 28, 2011)

You should be number one to your wife. You aren't . If your wife's friend was having an affair, you can bet your wife knew about it and probably encouraged it. Discussed justifications back and forth with her friend. That tells you something about your wife's values and where her head is at. Your wife isn't over sympathetic, she was as involved in the affair as her friend was, just not physically. And she stands by her friend instead of you. 

And now your wife will blame shift and you will try and be a peacemaker to save your marriage at all costs. Guess what? That won't pull her out of this and won't make her respect you. I'll bet you hear, if you really loved me you would have trusted me. Shame you didn't have miniature VARs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Paulination said:


> She is a SAHM and as such, I gave her large sums of money from time to time to pay off debts (from home improvements and such) and instead of doing that, I think she just put alot of it away. She asks for money for her CC and I just give it to her so I don't know the balances which is my fault. She has accumulated the money over many years so I don't think it is walk away money.


Yes, it is walk away money. She might not have thought of it that way specifically, but it was her "just in case" money. Just in case SHE needed it, not YOU. Since you give her money, large sums, whenever she asks, she wasn't saving up for something. She was saving it for _herself_, just in case she decided to leave you.

I mean this in a helpful way as something to think about: if you paid so little attention to your joint finances, accounts and taxes for years, have you been paying enough attention to your wife and to your marriage? 

She opened that account years ago and has been hiding money in it for years...what was happening between you when she started that account? How has your marriage been in the intervening years?


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## humanbecoming (Mar 14, 2012)

I wonder if she is feeling trapped? Some women don't handle the SAHM thing well- running around with kids all day, feeling like you are losing yourself, not feeling like you contribute to the household.

if she has built up some resentment, she should have talked to you before it got to this point, but if you have a chance to talk to her after she becomes more rational, you may see if this is the case.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

humanbecoming said:


> if she has built up some resentment, she should have talked to you before it got to this point, but if you have a chance to talk to her after she becomes more rational, you may see if this is the case.


Just a week ago she talked about how much she loved being a SAHM and how she doesn't intend to go back to work, even part time when our youngest starts school.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Paul, you might like to read the book "After the Affair". It helped me a lot with the deception issues in my marriage. My wife, too, had a cash stash which she had locked in her office. There were many other significant lies and deceptions in our marriage, some of which I was not aware of for a long time. It left me feeling feeling *betrayed* as deeply as if she'd had an affair. 

Though the book is aimed at sexual infidelity, the concepts apply to all forms of infidelity. Your library may have the book, or it is cheap and easily available at most any large bookstore.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

An arrest and/or indictment largely stems from the legal theory of "probable cause." To that end, she gave you that "probable cause" primarily by her actions and your resulting suspicions thereof, to which you appropriately reacted. In my opinion, you have absolutely nothing to apologize for!


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Divorce her man

Liars= Unworthy of marriage and love

Trust me i know Liar's it leads you nowhere to associate with these people.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Now she's real somber. I asked her if she wanted to talk and she said "about what" I said about whatever. She declined. Now real mopey and llaying in bed cuddled with a pillow with her eyes open. I'm just leaving her alone and tending to the kids.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Where did she spend the night?


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

In her car apparently. Didn't really sleep. Came home at 10:30 am and went right to bed.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

She’s probably in shock. She’s betrayed you for many years and proven herself to be a treacherous thief. It will have come as a great shock to her to have been caught out as she’d got away with it for so very long.

Just go about your life as normal and observe what she does. Let her make all the moves. Get some VARs and put one in her car and in rooms where she’d normally use her phone. You will uncover more and you really do need to do that for your own sanity.


You should have headed this post something like “Caught My Wife Betraying Me and Stealing From Me over Many Years”.

Instead you headed it with “Caught Snooping”. You need to change how you look at these things.

Your wife has betrayed you over many years and every single day she knew how treacherous she was being yet still she did it. It’ll take a while for that to sink in with you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm missing some detail here. Did she pay off the debts related to your home and put the leftover amount in a bank account? Or are those debts still outstanding?

Have you tracked all forms of communication. If you think she's in the grooming phase of an affair, have you checked her cellphone account?

FTR, back in the olden days when women didn't work outside the home and the men could control the finances, many women did siphon off money and started secret bank accounts. Or there was always the Coffee Club, remember that. These days, though, denying a non working spouse money is considered a form of spousal abuse. 

Your wife shouldn't feel the need to keep to hide a bank account. And if she's complaining about vague feelings of not being happy, she should be doing something about it.


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## Tigger (Dec 5, 2007)

i think it is a bit extreme to divorce or do more snooping based on this.

i would suggest you both try some marriage counseling to work on your marriage.

did she say why she was saving all that money for? do you have regular investments that you fund?

one of my sisters had to have a secret account as he was so bad with money she got tired of one financial crisis after another. she saved and invested for 27 years and when it was retirement time she finally told him and because of her they were able to retire.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

If her motivations were at all honourable she’d have just told him what they were.


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## Wheels65 (Jul 17, 2011)

> Women tend to have secret bank accounts because
> 
> 1) There's a sugar daddy
> 
> ...


Agreed, and a 4th...all of the above. Sounds like she is worried that you know more than you are letting on. In that case she is hiding other things, pure speculation on my part as I don't know you guys personally. I do wish you both all the best


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

In his other thread I think he mentioned it was a savings account and his name was on it as well...


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## lemonsthird (May 6, 2012)

Her reaction, sadly is VERY common - she may not be physically unfaithful - but marriage is not her priority. I would continue to track her on the down low and ultimately when you are ready (exit plan, etc.) confront her - understand child support and alimony are based on your current situation so you should cut back on overtime, etc. when you file. Do your online research to be as prepared as you can be.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

If your name is on the account, go get the money and pay down your mortgage.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Paulination,

I think I have this correct. It I don't please tell me. I've read through your threads a while ago. You thought she was cheating so you started snooping. Nothing wrong in my eyes with snooping. My husband can snoop all he wants. You did not find any evidence of cheating. You did find that she was talking smack to her friend about you and the marriage.

I don't remember how you found out about the bank account. Does the bank account have your name on it? When my husband and I were first married I was working. I was used to having my own money. I lived by myself for years. When I became pregnant we decided I would stay home. I loved my husband and had no thoughts of ever leaving him. But I felt insecure about not having any money of my own. This was not to leave him but to have for emergencies. I didn't tell my husband about it because I didn't want him to spend it. An emergency eventually happened and he was glad when I told him about the money. You said it took her years to accumulate that money. Maybe she just started squirreling to feel secure and kept at it. Maybe there wasn't any emergencies where it was needed.

As far as her telling her friend how unhappy she is and letting you think nothing is wrong. Sounds like you've both disconnected. Keep at the counseling and if this counselor is not working for you find another. Find ways to reconnect. Look into a marriage retreat or seminar. This may teach you ways to communicate effectively. Every long term marriage goes through it's ups and downs. Stick with the downs and try to fix the problem and hopefully you'll wind up with another up. I don't remember hearing about her doing anything that should cause a divorce. Especially when there are children involved. It sounds like you love her very much. I hope she gets on board and you find yourself on a way to an up.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

If your name is on the account, there's no way, IMO, that she opened this account for the purpose of leaving you. I had a friend who, whilst a SAHM, used to squirrel away money in order to feel 'secure.' I'm not saying this is right (or wrong) - just giving another slant on it.

Has your wife specifically told you that she's unhappy with you, as opposed to perhaps being depressed and unhappy with herself?

I think if I were you I'd suggest couple counselling, as there does seem to be rather a lot going on here.

Lastly, I don't believe you have anything to reproach yourself for checking up on her. You knew something was wrong, but she wasn't telling, so you took matters into your own hands.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Thanks all. Let me try to answer all of the questions with this post.

I did start snooping (computer and text/phone records) when I thought she may be cheating, ready to cheat or having an EA. I snooped for three months and found nothing along those lines (relief). I toned down my snooping from constantly to when I "sensed" something. That is how I found out about the account. She was taking too long to balance her checking account.

I asked if her finances were any more complicated than the checking account and her small savings and she said no. I snooped and saw her transaction and viola! A money market account.

All of her lying outside of this bank account was the "avoid a confrontation" variety. She really wasn't doing a whole lot wrong but just lied to me in case I thought what she was doing was wrong (does that make sense?). But lying is lying regardless of the motivations.

The bank account I believe was money that she simply did not appropriate the way she knew I thought it should. She was no longer working and felt secure having it there. My biggest problem is that once she lied about it, how could she ever tell me it was there?

I have stopped snooping and I don't plan to start up again unless there is really something there that needs to be investigated. I spent three months doing it and I feel I know all that there is to know. My wife unfortunatley is a different women than I thought she was. She's not evil, but she has gotten herself off track in this marriage and needs to find her way back.

I don't know how to help her, or if she even feels the need to be helped. The MC has convinced her that she feels the way she does because I emotionally abandoned her for the last four years and she has built these walls. My marriage simply was not that way but when I try to defend it I look defensive and it is used to prove her point. I am a good husband, have always been a good husband and to paint me any other way is offensive.

My wife has gotten really comfortable and has no fear whatsoever of losing me. That is what I need to figure out.


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## Tigger (Dec 5, 2007)

Paulination said:


> Thanks all. Let me try to answer all of the questions with this post.
> 
> I did start snooping (computer and text/phone records) when I thought she may be cheating, ready to cheat or having an EA. I snooped for three months and found nothing along those lines (relief). I toned down my snooping from constantly to when I "sensed" something. That is how I found out about the account. She was taking too long to balance her checking account.
> 
> ...


when you only told bits and pieces of the story until this post it is hard to give you any advice. it is like you are trying to cover things up.

the part where she says you abandoned her the past four years. what does that mean? what does she say you did?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Tigger said:


> when you only told bits and pieces of the story until this post it is hard to give you any advice. it is like you are trying to cover things up.
> 
> the part where she says you abandoned her the past four years. what does that mean? what does she say you did?


Geesh. You sound just like the MC.

His judgement is he did NOT abandon her. That the MC and his wife are toxic friends working against him.

And then you go and jump into the fray!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Paulination said:


> My wife has gotten really comfortable and has no fear whatsoever of losing me. That is what I need to figure out.


Your wife is what’s called “Over Confident”. You’ve proven yourself to be such a dependable rock in her life that she believes you will always be there for her. As a SAHM, instead of counting her blessings and appreciating you for the man you are, she is taking you totally for granted.

And it’s a darn difficult situation for you to be in. You are the guy who pays for the food on the table, the roof over her head. Without you the light wouldn’t come on when she flips the switch and water wouldn’t come out of the tap when she wanted to make herself a coffee. Without you there when it got cold in the winter she’d freeze because the heating wouldn’t come on.

But what can you do? If you withdraw the services you provide for her by stopping payment of the bills, it’s you they come after, it’s you that’s at fault. But the only way she will appreciate what you do for her is when you stop doing what it is you do!



One of the things that is within your control is money. The finances. Take all control of the finances back. This means you do the budget and you run the budget. It is something that if you don’t do it believe me you will regret it in the future. You have to know your income and your expenditure.

Your wife has proven herself untrustworthy as far as finances are concerned. So now is the time to do it. Don’t tell her what you are doing. Just do it.

While you are in the mode of taking back control of your life, cancel that MC. Don’t tell your wife, just cancel her. Then tell your wife if she still wants to go to MC she’s to find someone compatible to the two of you.

And go and have a look at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Geez, I'm sorry this has happened. It's a risk when you play detective.

Okay, so now she knows. Can't change that.
I'm betting she feels betrayed and violated, even though you have explained why you did it. You had your reasons for checking, I have done the same thing. 

I'm thinking she hides things or lies because she is unsure if you will approve or trying to do what she thinks you want her to do.

The toxic friend turned out to be nothing really, in the end.

So all that's left is trying to regain trust.
For both of you.

She now knows you don't trust her. It can be seen as a sign of insecurity. 

I agree with the Man up and Nice Guy Reference. 

How were things going with the MMSL work? Was that making a difference?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

AFEH said:


> And it’s a darn difficult situation for you to be in. You are the guy who pays for the food on the table, the roof over her head. Without you the light wouldn’t come on when she flips the switch and water wouldn’t come out of the tap when she wanted to make herself a coffee. Without you there when it got cold in the winter she’d freeze because the heating wouldn’t come on.
> 
> But what can you do? If you withdraw the services you provide for her by stopping payment of the bills, it’s you they come after, it’s you that’s at fault. But the only way she will appreciate what you do for her is when you stop doing what it is you do!
> 
> .


I think this implies that a SAHM does nothing to 'earn her keep' and is little more than a parasite... Surely by staying at home and looking after the children and home, she is freeing the OP up to actually go out and earn a living? 

I'm not condoning for _one minute_ that she felt in any way entitled to filter money away into a secret bank account without the prior approval of the OP, but where one parent agrees to stay at home and look after the children whilst the other goes out to work (and this goes for SAHDs as well), family finances are not usually viewed as 'his' or 'hers.'


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## Tigger (Dec 5, 2007)

AFEH said:


> Geesh. You sound just like the MC.
> 
> His judgement is he did NOT abandon her. That the MC and his wife are toxic friends working against him.
> 
> And then you go and jump into the fray!


im interested hearing from op what his wife said the reasons were she felt abandoned.

ill wait for his reply.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I don't really have advice to offer here. I'm sorry things have taken a really sour turn. 

My impression of your wife is that she feels constantly controlled and the discovery of the snooping doesn't help that. It reinforces her feelings of unhappiness with you and the marriage.

I hope you both are able to work through this. I'm not sure that after this she'll be more willing to take steps to try though... seems like she'd go further into a shell.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> I think this implies that a SAHM does nothing to 'earn her keep' and is little more than a parasite... Surely by staying at home and looking after the children and home, she is freeing the OP up to actually go out and earn a living?
> 
> I'm not condoning for _one minute_ that she felt in any way entitled to filter money away into a secret bank account without the prior approval of the OP, but where one parent agrees to stay at home and look after the children whilst the other goes out to work (and this goes for SAHDs as well), family finances are not usually viewed as 'his' or 'hers.'


You totally and absolutely missed the point.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Tigger,

Paulination has a couple of threads about his situation. Starting with when he first started snooping. Click on his name and read through some of them. It's all out there. Not just bits and pieces.

AFEH

Everybody needs different things to feel secure. Just because they have disconnected in their marriage does not mean that she should be demeaned by having the finances controlled. By her being a SAHM, her contribution is just as important as Paulinations monetary contribution.

Paulination, Have you tried the books His Needs, Her Needs or 5 Love Languages? They may help you reconnect. She should read them as well.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Just for the record. My wife was a SAHM for the first 12 years of our marriage. Even when she started working neither of our sons or myself wanted for anything. I know the true value of a good woman.

It’s different here. The guy’s wife is bemoaning him to the MC and she’s been deceiving and betraying him about the money.

It is now for him to get his wife to see his true value to her. If he doesn’t then the marriage will more than likely fail as they turn their love for one another off.

As the man it is for him to show leadership and to have a form of control over his future. Part of that leadership is canning the MC, getting a new one and taking control of the finances out of his wife’s hands as she has proven herself deceitful and incapable of honesty.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

AFEH,

I have great respect for your posts. Glad you did a just for the record. I am currently a stay at home mom. I was also a SAHM for our entire marriage. But my husband and I ran a business from home for 13 years. It has now closed due to the economy. Sometimes it's confusing to be a SAHM. I went from having a career, living alone to being married and running a business. It's very easy to loose a sense of ones self worth and contributions. I believe it's a major cause of walk away wife and disconnection in a
marriage. I hope if this is Paulination's wife's problem they can both work on it.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> I hope if this is Paulination's wife's problem they can both work on it.


I hope so, too. But it seems Paulination is choosing to dismiss the issues of "emotional abandonment" that his wife and their MC have raised. 

Fine, go get another MC. What if the new MC also highlights this as an issue between them? Paulination can't keep running away from it and dismissing it and expect anything to get better.

I still maintain there is NO WAY his wife could have a "secret" account completely "secret" unless Paulination paid no attention to their taxes every year for years. There are no secret accounts as far as the IRS is concerned. You need SS#'s to open an account in both their names; they have to report it as interest income on their joint return. If he'd paid any attention at all to their tax returns, he would have seen that account because they have to pay taxes on it. 

So if he ignored their taxes for years, I think it is possible that he has been ignoring other things in their marriage as well. There are two people in this marriage and it's not ALL his wife's fault that their marriage is not in good shape. If he does not want to take any responsibility, there will be no "working on the marriage" to improve it.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

norajane said:


> I hope so, too. But it seems Paulination is choosing to dismiss the issues of "emotional abandonment" that his wife and their MC have raised.
> 
> Fine, go get another MC. What if the new MC also highlights this as an issue between them? Paulination can't keep running away from it and dismissing it and expect anything to get better.
> 
> ...


What a brutal post that completely misses everything I have written about for the last four months.

I gave my wife large sums of cash. She stuffed some of it into a money market account without informing me. The account is with her credit union and though it is in both our names, the statments are under hers so I never openned them. Why? BECAUSE I TRUSTED HER. I trusted her to spend the money as we discussed. It never occurred to me to check. The year end interest statments would probably be under her name as well so guess what, I never opened them either. The IRS hasn't contacted us about it and I haven't thought to ask because...wait for it.... I did not know about it and I trusted my wife.

I have taken responsibilty for my actions. Take a look at my other threads, I have taken total action. The "emotional abandonment" is BS propagated by an over zealous MC which my wife happily agrees with because it keeps me in the hot seat. Every visit I leave there with my "marching orders" based on concrete actions I must take but she is never required to do anything.

Every improvement in my wifes behavior is always predicated on me donig something first. Then magically, over time my wifes feelings will improve (allegedy).


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't think that emotional abandonment is the fault of one partner. You know the saying it takes two. If Paulinations wife was feeling abandoned then it was her responsibility to address it with him. What if Paulination was feeling emotionally abandoned. That's usually what happens. One spouse feels emotionally abandoned and withdraws instead of trying to fix it. Now you have both partners feeling abandoned. In a situation like this where there is no cheating, each partner should own their part of the problems in the marriage and start working to make it better.

Paulination, If this counselor you are seeing is blaming you instead of having you BOTH work on your issues. You should find another. If there was no abuse or cheating BOTH of you have to want it and work on it. Not one working on it and the other responding. Your wife needs to own her contributions to the problem.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The issue with your wife is she is asserting power over you. She has set things up in her marriage where she can take it or leave it, and you are the one who will bend over backwards to fix the marriage, fix yourself, make her happy. All of her actions in all your posts are of the same thing.. Her moving away from the marriage and you chasing her. Her irrational unpredictable behavior is done to assert her dominance over you and the marriage. A Rational person would understand why you did this, but she act's all crazy upon finding out in order to keep asserting herself over you in the marriage.  Keep herself as the chased and you as the chaser.

You should own it, tell her you are happy you did it, did it becuase she acts in an untrustworthy way and in a way unworthy of your wife, and you will always take whatever steps are necessary to protect your interests in life.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hopefull363 said:


> AFEH,
> 
> I have great respect for your posts. Glad you did a just for the record. I am currently a stay at home mom. I was also a SAHM for our entire marriage. But my husband and I ran a business from home for 13 years. It has now closed due to the economy. Sometimes it's confusing to be a SAHM. I went from having a career, living alone to being married and running a business. It's very easy to loose a sense of ones self worth and contributions. I believe it's a major cause of walk away wife and disconnection in a
> marriage. I hope if this is Paulination's wife's problem they can both work on it.


It can work the other way around as well. In that the financial provider can feel immensely under appreciated. It’s what the A=Appreciation (lack of it) in AFEH is for. My wife never had to pay a penny towards rent or mortgages, any utilities, food etc. What she earned she kept to run the cars I bought her, presents, you know all those nice things.

While I thanked her for every meal, the clean clothes and the other things she did for me, not once did she thank me for paying the mortgage, the bills, for the holidays. It was like it was just “expected”.

I think wise people count their blessings and say thanks for them. It’s also a leadership/management thing. Good leaders go round finding people doing good things and then demonstrate their appreciation. A simple thank you can be worth a heck of a lot and very motivational.


But the bitter and resentful people withhold their thanks and it doesn’t take long for them to become blind to their blessings all around them.

There will undoubtedly be resentment in Paulination’s wife. But it sounds as though the MC is adding to her resentment, not helping it go away. It also sounds like Paulination is becoming resentful about the process if he’s not resentful already. How’s that for a really crappy MC!


But it is for Paulination to can the MC. His wife never will.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Agreed. Now we need somebody to second the motion so Paulination cans his MC.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> Agreed. Now we need somebody to second the motion so Paulination cans his MC.


I'm going to at least wait until this next visit. I am interested in seeing what she would have me do next. I have followed everything by the numbers and the ball will really be in my wifes court. There is really nothing left to say except address MY concerns at this point.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> Agreed. Now we need somebody to second the motion so Paulination cans his MC.


I second the motion and await the report from the latest appt with bated breath.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes please let us know Paulination. It sounds like this one is pining everything on you. Again I'll say it takes two. Your wife needs to address her part.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> ... If this counselor you are seeing is blaming you instead of having you BOTH work on your issues. You should find another. If there was no abuse or cheating BOTH of you have to want it and work on it. Not one working on it and the other responding. Your wife needs to own her contributions to the problem.



I agree with the above, and would also add that it surely isn't the role of a MC to take sides - but to rather steer _both_ parties into recognising certain behaviours that could be contributing to the problems in the relationship.

I also agree with others who have commented that the OP might do well to find a less biased MC.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I can hardly wait for more obtuse insight from norajane.


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

The sad thing is..one lie leads to another no matter how small the lie is.

Point is now..how do you trust her with anything she says or does? If she lied to you about one thing that you found out about..how do you know she didn't lie to you about other things that you DON'T know about??

In addition, her hiding money from you..why did she do that? Another lie.

In order to make your marriage work, the two of you need some massive counseling. Hopefully she'll agree to go and take it seriously.

Good luck to you and I hope all works out for the best.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

memyselfandi said:


> In order to make your marriage work, the two of you need some massive counseling. Hopefully she'll agree to go and take it seriously.
> 
> Good luck to you and I hope all works out for the best.


Thanks, we're in counseling now. My thought is this and let me know if it doesn't make sense. My wife really feels I betrayed her by spying. I feel she really betrayed me by lying. I am thinking about using this as an opportunity to clear the deck so to speak.

In essence we're even. No more spying, no more lying. We start at ground zero with a new understanding and everything out in the open. Like I said, I for the first time in my marriage know for sure what is going on. She for the first time knows that I know her secrets and that must be somewhat refreshing.

Is this really something we can build from or am I fooling myself? The biggest thing I have to figure out is what is the consequence if she lies again? It must be swift, severe, rock her world.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

You did nothing at all wrong by spying on your wife. You had your suspicions which you verified and validated by seeing what your wife was doing. If you’d have straight forward asked her to be honest and open with you she wouldn’t have been.


Your wife kept secrets from you. Far from you putting your hand up for some sort of guilty action, tell her until you are certain you are getting the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth you will treat each word she says as a lie until you can independently verify it.


Tell her your trust in her has gone and she must earn it back by being straight forward, honest and open with you from now on. And that until that time she can expect you to carry on spying on her. And to stop her silly nonsense about you betraying her. If she had been honest with you, you’d have had no reason to spy on her.

You my man are being played. You are being seriously played.


Your wife is a liar and a deceiver. You just haven’t cottoned on to that as yet or the consequences of it. Take her down off that pedestal you have her on. It will be better for both of you.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Paulination said:


> Thanks, we're in counseling now. My thought is this and let me know if it doesn't make sense. My wife really feels I betrayed her by spying. I feel she really betrayed me by lying. I am thinking about using this as an opportunity to clear the deck so to speak.
> 
> In essence we're even. No more spying, no more lying. We start at ground zero with a new understanding and everything out in the open. Like I said, I for the first time in my marriage know for sure what is going on. She for the first time knows that I know her secrets and that must be somewhat refreshing.
> 
> Is this really something we can build from or am I fooling myself? The biggest thing I have to figure out is what is the consequence if she lies again? It must be swift, severe, rock her world.


I think it COULD work, but I don't think it's gonna happen without transparency.

I made that mistake, and I wouldn't suggest it. The solution to someone lying to you is not less accountability, it's more. She needs to invite you into her life and I think you should tell her that trust is only going to be built when she stops being defensive and starts being an open book.

People that don't have **** to hide don't need to hide things.

I think my wife has done a great job with this. I mean every time I ask to see something she throws it all on the table, "Look through it, I have nothing to hide, I know I haven't done anything wrong."

Coming from someone who called me a controlling spy a few months ago, I think it shows the change in mindset someone will have when they are no longer living in lies. If your wife is resisting the transparency, she's probably not ready to give up the secret life.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Paulination said:


> Thanks, we're in counseling now. My thought is this and let me know if it doesn't make sense. My wife really feels I betrayed her by spying. I feel she really betrayed me by lying. I am thinking about using this as an opportunity to clear the deck so to speak.
> 
> In essence we're even. No more spying, no more lying. We start at ground zero with a new understanding and everything out in the open. Like I said, I for the first time in my marriage know for sure what is going on. She for the first time knows that I know her secrets and that must be somewhat refreshing.
> 
> Is this really something we can build from or am I fooling myself? The biggest thing I have to figure out is what is the consequence if she lies again? It must be swift, severe, rock her world.



I think this is another chicken or the egg scenarios. Had you not had a gut feeling that she was witholding something from you, it probably wouldn't have occurred to you to snoop. I know this is certainly the case in my relationship...

I think starting from ground zero and moving forward, if possible, is a sensible plan, and I wish you both well.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with snooping in a marriage. You have a right to know what your wife is up to as well as she has a right to know what you're up to. If the communication has broken down then snooping is the only way. 

Snooping and cheating are not the problem in your marriage. It sounds like there is resentment that both of you are feeling. You both have to find out what they are and let go of them. Does your wife really want this marriage to work? If she does she has to take responsibility for her part. How did your session go last night?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

COguy said:


> If your wife is resisting the transparency, she's probably not ready to give up the secret life.


:iagree:


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Wow, I am really in the minority here.

There is nothing wrong with a woman -- especially a SAHM -- having a bank account of her own. It is, in fact, advisable. She doesn't need to have to depend on you for every dime -- and what if you up and leave her?

Secondly, any man who put a keylogger on my computer would get the riot act read loud and clear. That's a betrayal of her privacy. You just assumed that a) she was cheating and b) that you had the right to look over her private emails etc. She's your wife, not your slave, not your child. You need to work out the issues in your marriage by mature communication, not by snooping.

I don't blame her for being mad. You were in the wrong.

I know I am bucking the trend here, so flame away, I can take it


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Wow, I am really in the minority here.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a woman -- especially a SAHM -- having a bank account of her own. It is, in fact, advisable. She doesn't need to have to depend on you for every dime -- and what if you up and leave her?
> 
> ...


You're bucking the trend because what you propose isn't healthy, it's deceit.

If she wants a separate bank account, then fine, get a separate account, but it should not be done in secrecy.

Would you feel the same about a man having a secret account he tucks money away into? In a marriage with joint finances, it is literally stealing from your mate when you hide money without telling them. Especially in a marriage where there are debts and he is using his money to pay them down in good faith that it is the only resources they have.

In marriage there is no such thing as a private bank account, if there is a divorce, the money is split evenly anyway. It's called community property, and withholding the information is not just unethical, it's a crime.

As for snooping, marriage is about opening the book and sharing life with someone else. Secrets lead to mistrust. If you don't have anything to hide, it shouldn't bother you. What would you want to tell someone else that you wouldn't be comfortable sharing with your spouse? If there is anything, outside of surprise parties, it means you are keeping vital information from your spouse about your feelings or relationship that he doesn't know.

There's a million threads about it on TAM, there's a reason you're thinking is in the minority.

If I had to guess, I'd say that you are either single and don't know what it's like to be married. Or married, and actively hiding things from your spouse (like talking crap about him behind his back?).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

In one of our attempts at reconciliation, my wife confessed to me it was tempting to take the $80-$100.00 I routinely handed her and "set aside" $20 or $40 "just in case".

I'm glad she was honest.

Still hurt.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Wow, I am really in the minority here.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a woman -- especially a SAHM -- having a bank account of her own. It is, in fact, advisable. She doesn't need to have to depend on you for every dime -- and what if you up and leave her?
> 
> ...


My wife took thousands that I gave her to pay off debt and secretly put it into a bank account that she lied about having. I snooped originally because she would not communicate what her feelings were and I knew I had to rule out a third party in our marriage in order to try and fix it. Given that foundation, tell me where I was wrong.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

lamaga said:


> Wow, I am really in the minority here.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a woman -- especially a SAHM -- having a bank account of her own. It is, in fact, advisable. She doesn't need to have to depend on you for every dime -- and what if you up and leave her?
> 
> ...


Wait you have no problem with a secret bank account with a pile of money in it,but you do have a problem with him checking up on if sheis cheating. Wow, by any chance are you also of the opionion that it's ok for a person to step out and have some strange sex so long as they come home to sleep?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Paul,
Just one question and one observation for you. 

Is it correct that your W claims simultaneously that:
- She somehow doesn't trust you emotionally - trust you to treat her well AND
- Is determined to remain a stay at home wife and continue to be totally financially dependent on you

There are other threads like that. 

This is what stuns me about this type situation:
Good spouse: I resent you and am not sure how long (if ever) it will take to get over it
Naughty spouse: Sorry - what exactly did I do that was so awful? And if it was so bad, WHY didn't you say something at the time?
Good spouse: I don't know exactly what you did - but I resent you for it and you need to make up for it. 

To be fair - to your W - I believe she wants a good marriage. I also believe that she and the therapist somehow have decided that YOU are the sole reason for any marital discord and somehow need to "figure out" how to make it better. The fact that your W takes no responsibility for the situation, the resolution or acknowledges any concrete steps she should take makes this a very difficult problem to solve. 

Be careful going down this path. I do believe you truly know what you need to change/fix. I also believe that if she gets to skate this way the subtext is "she deserves a better partner - and you don't deserve her". The underlying mechanics of that are frighteningly simple. ALL the good things you do - get discounted down to zero. ONLY your flaws and mistakes get accounted for. 

I will describe the "memory tape" that plays in my head for you. 
ME: In a bad place due to stress, general irritation with life. Suddenly a stream of "mean things" my W has done to me flood into my head. I let the stream run for a while and then I stop it. And redirect my memories to the hundreds - no thousands - of kind, decent and loving things she has done for me. And after a while I shrug internally. Because the good outweighs the bad by a giant amount......




Paulination said:


> Thanks, we're in counseling now. My thought is this and let me know if it doesn't make sense. My wife really feels I betrayed her by spying. I feel she really betrayed me by lying. I am thinking about using this as an opportunity to clear the deck so to speak.
> 
> In essence we're even. No more spying, no more lying. We start at ground zero with a new understanding and everything out in the open. Like I said, I for the first time in my marriage know for sure what is going on. She for the first time knows that I know her secrets and that must be somewhat refreshing.
> 
> Is this really something we can build from or am I fooling myself? The biggest thing I have to figure out is what is the consequence if she lies again? It must be swift, severe, rock her world.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Paul,
> Just one question and one observation for you.
> 
> Is it correct that your W claims simultaneously that:
> ...


This is what’s happening in MC and it’s what happens between toxic friends. It happened to me and my wife. My younger son is her toxic friend. All they ever do is talk about the bad, never the good. And if there’s not enough bad, they make it up as they go along. It’s like frenzied, possessed feeding each trying to outdo the other!

The longer this goes on, the worse Paulination will be painted, the worse he will look in their eyes and the more there will be to get “undone”.

It’s like having a GREAT BIG SHADOW put over you, which while you are with them you simply cannot get out from under of NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!.

I literally wrenched myself away from the shadow my wife and son painted over me. And now I’m out of it, in the sunshine looking back. And from this type of perspective I can more or less see it all. Or, at least as much as I need to see.




And the really strange twist in all of this?


After a year or so of separation my wife concluded that she now feels bad because I was more concerned with keeping her happy than she was concerned with keeping me happy! It’s what happens with resentful people. They slowly but surely withdraw the loving things (that made me happy) they used to do. I was never resentful (I sure could have been) so I never withdrew my love!


And another really strange twist in all of this?


She wants back with me. But SHE has CONDITIONS! It really is all quite unbelievable.


Paulination, I hope the above somehow helps you. I really do think that while you are “there” you’re never ever going to be appreciated. It’s not until she’s lost you that she’ll appreciate the things you did for her.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I still think she's totally bored and unhappy. Not much you can do about that, she has to be willing to stop living in fantasyland and do something productive with her life. Not enough drama being a SAHM, soccer is done for the year? 

I know you think she is busy and has a fulfulling life and hobbies.
Seems like they are just time fillers, really. Otherwise she wouldn't be acting out the way she is.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Paul, is this MC actually legitimately certified in Marriage Counseling? I'm a broken record on this forum when it comes to this factoid but I think it's important - About 85% of private counseling practices *claim to offer MC services* but have not actually studied any course work and are not certified in Marriage Counseling.

Are you sure this MC is one of the 15% who is certified??? It sounds like she's not... and it could be the big difference between making or breaking your relationship at this point.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Wow, I am really in the minority here.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with a woman -- especially a SAHM -- having a bank account of her own. It is, in fact, advisable. She doesn't need to have to depend on you for every dime -- and what if you up and leave her?
> 
> ...


Ordinarily, I would agree that snooping is wrong. However, if one party is refusing to engage about what is wrong in a relationship, I believe it can be appropriate for the other party (who is desperate to save the relationship) to use any means at their disposal to find out what is wrong. Had the OP's wife communicated with him like an adult, he mightn't have been driven to doing this.

Of course a SAHM is entitled to her own bank account, but not at the expense of the family finances. The OP's wife opened a secret bank account without his knowledge, and squirrelled away _large sums of money_ without consulting him.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Well she is in absolute blame shifting and gaslighting mode tonight. We got into a slight tiff about nothing in particular and she suddenly started to cuss me out. I said "where the f&*ck is this coming from?" and she said "because I'm pissed that you spied on me".

I tried to explain the logic of me spying and basically she said that our relationship will never be the same because I betrayed her trust. I reminded her of the lies and she either denies them or minimizes them. She says she told me about the extra bank account and that I am too stupid to remember that. I kept pointing out that it wasn't true and she was lying now and she just go more pissed.

And when I say pissed, I mean pathological. She told me she hated me, doesn't want to be married to me, wants to leave and doesn't care if she dies. She drives away and then shows back up 20 minutes later accusing me of taking her thyroid medicine so she'll get fat. This is hell.

I'm less concerned about her and more concerned about my kids. I am taking the hard stance of "if you want to leave, then leave" and all that does is make her make her more pissed and crazy. She just left again. I don't know what to do. God, tonight sucks and I have to work tomorrow. How can a woman with no options and a husband that treats her like gold be such a b#$tch.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

I forgot, she also pulled out the old "if you were so suspicious of me, I should have just gone out and f%$cked someone" that was golden. A real capper for the evening.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Paulination, you mentioned thyroid medication, and I'm wondering if she's on any other meds that could be causing this irrational behaviour... For example, untreated / not treated properly, low thyroid can cause mood swings and depression. I'm not saying this is the case with your wife, but it's worth considering?

Again, given the circumstances, I think you were completely justified in snooping. Your wife opening a secret bank account, however, was not. Also, out of interest, as the bank account is in both of your names, how did she manage to get 'your' signature on the application forms for the account...

I really hope your wife starts taking some responsibility for the problems in your marriage before it's too late.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I went through similar things with my wife. The false accusations, lies and deceits, blaming/scapegoating, denials. It really did my head in.

One thing I didn’t actually consider at the time was did my wife really believe what she was saying? I thought she was saying the things to hurt and confuse me.

But now there’s been a lot of physical, psychological and most importantly emotional distance between my wife and I, I can see that she really did believe the things she was saying.

Well I know the truth of the things so now I’ve concluded that my wife was deluded. I believe this comes about because just like your wife, my wife kept secrets. Indeed years back she even had a secret savings account. And people who keep secrets think others do the same. For example after our separation my wife became convinced that I have a secret account with $75,000 in it that I’d secretly stashed away during the time we were together.

Well I don’t have any secret accounts. In all the decades we were together my finances were a totally open book, to the point my wife had joint cards on my one bank account. To be accused of these things really hurts, they cause a great deal of pain. In essence it is a massive betrayal of the honest man you were over the years you were together.

So these spouses with secrets think their spouse too has secrets and that’s how they become deluded. But they also become paranoid as well. For example your wife has been saving up for some time so that she can leave you. But what/who does she want to leave you for? And she will think that you too want to leave her. She thinks you, just like her are being two faced and deceitful and hence she becomes paranoid wrt your motivations.


So you may well have a paranoid and deluded wife on your hand.


Take a look at Paranoid schizophrenia - MayoClinic.com and research paranoid schizophrenia.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

With my wife her delusions are so deep and complex that there’s no chance they’ll ever be unravelled such that the truth can be seen and accepted. It’s why I make no attempt at reconciliation even for the purpose of being at least civil with one another.


That’s one of the reasons I urge you to get rid of the MC. The longer the toxic relationship between your wife and the MC goes on, the more deluded and paranoid your wife will become and the more concrete her belief in her delusions.


My wife’s toxic friend was/is our youngest son. I couldn’t for one reason or another either get them to see the light or break them up. My younger son has been diagnosed with schizophrenia. They are the ultimate in toxic relationships. Now they are welcome to one another in that I’ll have nothing to do with either of them.


But you have absolutely no excuses for not breaking away from your MC.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Paul,
You are going to have to address one thing quickly and firmly: the "I am never going to get over xyz - in this case spying".

If you allow her to take the role of permanent victim, you will be walking on eggshells the rest of your life.





QUOTE=Paulination;736370]Well she is in absolute blame shifting and gaslighting mode tonight. We got into a slight tiff about nothing in particular and she suddenly started to cuss me out. I said "where the f&*ck is this coming from?" and she said "because I'm pissed that you spied on me".

I tried to explain the logic of me spying and basically she said that our relationship will never be the same because I betrayed her trust. I reminded her of the lies and she either denies them or minimizes them. She says she told me about the extra bank account and that I am too stupid to remember that. I kept pointing out that it wasn't true and she was lying now and she just go more pissed.

And when I say pissed, I mean pathological. She told me she hated me, doesn't want to be married to me, wants to leave and doesn't care if she dies. She drives away and then shows back up 20 minutes later accusing me of taking her thyroid medicine so she'll get fat. This is hell.

I'm less concerned about her and more concerned about my kids. I am taking the hard stance of "if you want to leave, then leave" and all that does is make her make her more pissed and crazy. She just left again. I don't know what to do. God, tonight sucks and I have to work tomorrow. How can a woman with no options and a husband that treats her like gold be such a b#$tch.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM, I would say he’s to believe her and accept her truth.

Believe that she’ll never get over it and believe that she’ll always be a “false victim”.


And then project himself ahead in time, 10, 20 years ahead and understand how he would feel when she says in 2032 “You spied on me in 2012. I’ll never ever forgive you for that”.


And then he’d see that every good thing he did between 2012 and 2032 was a total waste of time as far as his wife is concerned.


These things happen. They are REAL. He is far better off believing she means what she says and taking his decisions from that perspective than he will ever be in trying to change her false victim personality with all it’s associated delusions and paranoia.


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

If she told you about the bank account, why did she lie about it when you asked her why it took so long to balance?

I don't think she's clinically ill, I think she is just being irrational because she wants to be manipulative and its not working. Like a two year old who doesn't get their ice cream, and throws a tantrum.

you're handling it well, if you want to up it a notch, give her some papers. She led to you and isn't remorseful and is blaming you. If she senses her security blanket leaving shell have a change of heart.if not, she want going to change anyway. Id definitely not go back to the MC together, shell reinforce you as the bad guy


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## ShawnD (Apr 2, 2012)

Cosmos said:


> where one parent agrees to stay at home and look after the children whilst the other goes out to work (and this goes for SAHDs as well), family finances are not usually viewed as 'his' or 'hers.'


The his and hers viewpoint might work as long as it's kept equal.
I mention -equal- because I remember a few studies show that people screw themselves over if they feel like they are being treated unfairly. 

test parameters:
You and I are sitting at a table. A third person has $10 to offer the two of us in any proportion. He can give us $5 each, he can give all $10 to me, he can divide the $10 any way he wants _as long as we both accept the amount_. If either us rejects the offer, we both walk away with nothing.

unfair offers:
In these types of studies, a LOT of people would favour equality over absolute value. For example, the third person offers to give me $1 and you $9. Lots of people in my position would reject the offer because it was unfair. Logically, this doesn't make any sense. I have the choice of gaining $0 or gaining $1 and lots of people would choose $0 simply because the amount _you_ receive is too much.


What do we take away from a study like this? People care a lot about equality and perceived fairness. In the situation of a stay at home parent, it might make sense to do the finances together so both people understand all of the number involved, then do a series of steps to decide how money is divided. My parents had a system loosely similar to this; both parents gave themselves an allowance.
1) start with net income
2) subtract all of the fixed bills you both agree on (mortgage)
3) subtract a projected amount for other necessities (food)
4) split the remaining money in half and give each person half

In the above, both people get the same amount of spendable cash. That way, neither person can get too upset when the other buys dumb things. I spend too much on fountain pens and my gf spends too much on pastels, but we spend our own money, so it's ok.
The system my parents had start from the end and worked backwards. Instead of variable disposable income, they would give themselves a set amount of maybe $40 per week to spend on anything they want, and the rest is all stashed away into savings and retirement.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

COguy said:


> If she told you about the bank account, why did she lie about it when you asked her why it took so long to balance?
> 
> I don't think she's clinically ill, I think she is just being irrational because she wants to be manipulative and its not working. Like a two year old who doesn't get their ice cream, and throws a tantrum.
> 
> you're handling it well, if you want to up it a notch, give her some papers. She led to you and isn't remorseful and is blaming you. If she senses her security blanket leaving shell have a change of heart.if not, she want going to change anyway. Id definitely not go back to the MC together, shell reinforce you as the bad guy


If you do go this route and server her some papers, it would be a perfect opportunity to say to her "here you go... You want to go [email protected]&k someone else? Here's your golden opportunity to fulfill that selfish fantasy."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Bottled Up said:


> If you do go this route and server her some papers, it would be a perfect opportunity to say to her "here you go... You want to go [email protected]&k someone else? Here's your golden opportunity to fulfill that selfish fantasy."
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quite right. He should call her hand and see how she responds.


She sure as heck is never going to appreciate him for the type of man he is while she still has him doing the things he does!


It may well take a year or so of separation before she realises what’s she’s lost.


But when he wakes up to just how much she’s betrayed him, he may well become repulsed by her and then it really will be the end.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

"Most" people are not mentally ill or deluded, although it does happen and if it has happened to you, your personal insights scream out.

OP, sometimes overthinking everything has consequences.

So what does your wife say about the lying? Is she cooled off enough to discuss it? 

If it makes any difference, her reaction is pretty normal. Anyone who finds out their spouse is spying because they think they are cheating (and they aren't) is likely to react with the same thoughts.
Not everyone would verbalize it, but it seems normal to me that your wife would be mad and have those thoughts.

It doesn't excuse the lying. Just that right now she is focused on being mad about it, and it might be hard to move forward right now.

How would you feel if it happened to you? And you know without a doubt you are faithful, and she spied on you "just to be sure" because there are issues in the marriage? YOu would be mad for awhile, but you would know you have nothing to hide.

You didn't suspect she was cheating... TAM advised you to check anyways. YOu didn't find anything. That doesn't mean she is deluded or ill... she didn't fall into the 90% category of posters here. You are lucky, if you ask me. I think you took action soon enough to save your marriage from an affair. Maybe that's all gone now though.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I think you should validate her reaction. Her reaction to your snooping is not out of line quite frankly. 

Wife, I understand why you are angry. I know you feel I betrayed you. I can see why you would be very upset with me. I can only tell you that I did this because I love you, I love our marriage, and I love our family. When you came to me out of left field with the feelings you expressed to me, it seemed very out of character for our situation. I felt a need to protect all that I hold dear which is my marriage and my family. I did it from a place of love for you and what we have. You can choose to allow feelings of negativity about your marriage take over your life, or choose to be in a productive, loving marriage and family. The choice is yours, but I wanted you to understand my intentions behind doing what I did.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Hicks said:


> I think you should validate her reaction. Her reaction to your snooping is not out of line quite frankly.
> 
> Wife, I understand why you are angry. I know you feel I betrayed you. I can see why you would be very upset with me. I can only tell you that I did this because I love you, I love our marriage, and I love our family. When you came to me out of left field with the feelings you expressed to me, it seemed very out of character for our situation. I felt a need to protect all that I hold dear which is my marriage and my family. I did it from a place of love for you and what we have. You can choose to allow feelings of negativity about your marriage take over your life, or choose to be in a productive, loving marriage and family. The choice is yours, but I wanted you to understand my intentions behind doing what I did.


I might have agreed with this kind of a response... before she actually said "maybe I should have [email protected]&cked someone else." to Paulination. That right there is a cold and heartless statement, and takes all the wind right out of her sails for any reasoning she might have had on her side before she said that.

I'm sorry, but if I were in Paul's shoes and my wife said that sh!t to me, it would be an incredibly serious threat... and I'd make damn sure my wife felt the wrath from even stooping there. No way in hell would I begin to validate anything for her unless she owned up to the severity of what she just said in that moment and was remorseful for it.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Hicks said:


> I think you should validate her reaction. Her reaction to your snooping is not out of line quite frankly.
> 
> Wife, I understand why you are angry. I know you feel I betrayed you. I can see why you would be very upset with me. I can only tell you that I did this because I love you, I love our marriage, and I love our family. When you came to me out of left field with the feelings you expressed to me, it seemed very out of character for our situation. I felt a need to protect all that I hold dear which is my marriage and my family. I did it from a place of love for you and what we have. You can choose to allow feelings of negativity about your marriage take over your life, or choose to be in a productive, loving marriage and family. The choice is yours, but I wanted you to understand my intentions behind doing what I did.


Yes, maybe you've tried this already, and maybe you are just venting frustration to us because it didn't work. But this also mirrors what I said in the previous post.

I would just say calmly, over and over and over, I did this because I love you deeply and I want to stay married. I had no intention of hurting you but I was fearful that you were leaving me for someone else. I didn't know of a way to bridge the distance between us and bring you back.

Her anger, of course, isn't just at the 'betrayal.' It's to pick a fight so she can make you the bad guy; it's a way to deflect guilt over what she did; and you've poked a hole into a secret private side that she wanted to keep hidden from you. Using anger to react to her irritability over your "betrayal" is just a tool for her to further justify her actions. 

For example, don't argue any more about whether she told you before or not. You want to keep hammering on the essential message. You want the marriage to work. You love her. You want to be united in truth.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bob,
I have been on the receiving end of that statement a small number of times during our marriage. My best reaction was to wait a few days - and revisit the event and sequence that led up to it. 

And yes - a few days later she repeated she didn't think she would EVER get over it. 

So I started at the beginning of the event and said in a soft voice. It is now 10 years later and we are at a party and I mention that while typically not grudge holders we have both CHOSEN to hold onto an incident for a full decade. My resentment is about "xyz" from that incident and her 10 year resentment is over a text message that literally read:
And then I put my phone in front of her and let her read the text message I had sent. She was quiet for a while. And then she asked me - "did I really say XYZ to you" at the start of this fight? And I replied - you did - and I handled it like a child. This is not about beating you up. Your statement was hurtful and out of line. AND you really meant it in the moment. My reaction to it was what you would expect from a poorly reared 10 year old. We have a great marriage because neither of us "clings" to injuries for use as leverage with the other. 

She nodded and I could see the anger seeping out of her body. She asked me for a hug - the fight was over. 

A lot has been written about how people perceive time. Fortunately in our house, it is possible for NEVER to equal 3-4 days. 

One cannot love passionately without injury - making passionate love unsustainable without true forgiveness.








AFEH said:


> MEM, I would say he’s to believe her and accept her truth.
> 
> Believe that she’ll never get over it and believe that she’ll always be a “false victim”.
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Hicks said:


> I think you should validate her reaction. Her reaction to your snooping is not out of line quite frankly.
> 
> Wife, I understand why you are angry. I know you feel I betrayed you. I can see why you would be very upset with me. I can only tell you that I did this because I love you, I love our marriage, and I love our family. When you came to me out of left field with the feelings you expressed to me, it seemed very out of character for our situation. I felt a need to protect all that I hold dear which is my marriage and my family. I did it from a place of love for you and what we have. You can choose to allow feelings of negativity about your marriage take over your life, or choose to be in a productive, loving marriage and family. The choice is yours, but I wanted you to understand my intentions behind doing what I did.


Geesh. His wife has a secret account! The ONLY way he found out was by snooping!

And now you want him to go on his back foot. All that will do is take attention and focus AWAY from her abusive behaviour!

Which is EXACTLY what she wants to happen.


It is called BLAME SHIFTING!


He will one day WAKE UP one day to the fact that from the date she opened that account and started stashing money into it she has been planning on leaving him. So if that was say five years ago for five years she has been withdrawing her love from him and planning to leave him!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Bob,
> I have been on the receiving end of that statement a small number of times during our marriage. My best reaction was to wait a few days - and revisit the event and sequence that led up to it.
> 
> And yes - a few days later she repeated she didn't think she would EVER get over it.
> ...


My wife said it a few times as well. Each time it seriously hurt me and took a long time to work through and get over.


The last time she told me she’d “never ever forgive me” was, well the last time. I couldn’t tolerate it any more. I now consider those words massively abusive and a massive betrayal.



Paulination should ask his wife to forgive him for the things he got wrong, for the times he hurt her in the past.


If she tells him she’ll never ever forgive him, he should believe her. He should believe that his wife will forever be bitter and resentful towards him.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

COguy said:


> If she told you about the bank account, why did she lie about it when you asked her why it took so long to balance?
> 
> I don't think she's clinically ill, I think she is just being irrational because she wants to be manipulative and its not working. Like a two year old who doesn't get their ice cream, and throws a tantrum.
> 
> you're handling it well, if you want to up it a notch, give her some papers. She led to you and isn't remorseful and is blaming you. If she senses her security blanket leaving shell have a change of heart.if not, she want going to change anyway. Id definitely not go back to the MC together, shell reinforce you as the bad guy


Every single day that she had that secret bank account she has been lying to and deceiving her husband.

Imagine that. So let’s say it’s been open for 5 years. Every day for five years she’s been lying to and deceiving her husband!

She has been leading a totally different life to the life Paulination thought she was leading. She has well and truly deluded him!


But is her behaviour pathological, in that she simply cannot help it? For a starters she has become a habitual liar. Lying for 5 years does become somewhat habitual. And she’s now probably a compulsive liar to boot. She will tell lies in a compulsive way such that her secrets are not fully revealed!


I say it’s pathological. If it wasn’t pathological she would have been full of remorse once her secret activity had been discovered.


But she is not in any way whatsoever remorseful! Until she is remorseful, until she has realised the magnitude of her betrayal her behaviour will never change for the better.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

deejov said:


> "*Most" people are not mentally ill or deluded,* although it does happen and if it has happened to you, your personal insights scream out.
> 
> OP, sometimes overthinking everything has consequences.
> 
> ...


She is not at all REMORSEFUL about her betrayal with the bank account.

That shouts of a mental illness.

No Empathy. No Compassion. For her husband!


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm one of the few that are not concerned about the secret bank account. I'm more concerned with her reactions. Either the MC you are seeing is validating her responses and making it worse or she has more to hide that you haven't found. Really need another MC, her blame shifting has to stop.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Hopefull363 said:


> *Really need another MC, her blame shifting has to stop.*


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I can't get past the way she talks to you. The way you talk to one another. It's so bad.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Paulination said:


> I tried to explain the logic of me spying
> .


Your mistake is thinking she is rational.

My wife gave me much the same kind of reaction to me asking her if the lady's razor in the car was hers. She was over the top. I tried to rationalize with her "Just because something is suspicious does not make you guilty. I agree with you on that. But just because you are innocent does not mean something cannot appear suspicious".

She argued passionately that my position was impossible.

Don't get emotionally attached to her having a rational reaction to your statements or actions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Paulination,

How has logic worked for you in the past?

Try this on for size.

Logical explanations appear needy to her - as you are seeking her AGREEMENT for what you did.

Don't do them.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Paulination:

I've been doing a lot of foreign language study lately and let me see if I can translate a few things for you:

she said "because I'm pissed that you spied on me".
she meant "I'm pissed that you caught me"

she said that our relationship will never be the same because I betrayed her trust
she meant "because I betrayed your trust". This is classic projection

She told me she hated me, doesn't want to be married to me, wants to leave and doesn't care if she dies. She drives away and then shows back up 20 minutes later accusing me of taking her thyroid medicine so she'll get fat.
This is internal rage bottled up from the past. Eventually she builds up to blaming you for everything she feels is wrong with her

I am taking the hard stance of "if you want to leave, then leave" and all that does is make her make her more pissed and crazy. 
She will continue to rage when she doesn't get her way

By the way, where is the money now?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Hopefull363 said:


> the MC you are seeing is validating her responses


I've been in counseling for 9 months and my wife still does this. I think when a skilled counselor identifies a severely broken person they tread lightly for fear of making things worse

Uncontrolled raging is a sign of internal dysfunction


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

AFEH said:


> She is not at all REMORSEFUL about her betrayal with the bank account.
> 
> That shouts of a mental illness.
> 
> No Empathy. No Compassion. For her husband!


We can't see into her head. Only know that she is pissed as hell that he was spying and she found it on the computer. 

Look go back to the original threads. 
You guys HAMMERED this guy into thinking his wife was cheating. He insisted she wasn't... but went ahead and spied on her anyways. Because you guys insisted he should do it.
He didn't find what you were sure he would.

If I play fly on the wall long enough.. I can find SOMETHING on anybody. Wanna bet?

The rest of these threads are about encouraging the OP to work on himself, and that didn't go over very well.

I find this thread sooo out of place.

Only information you have to go on is the OP.
Can't say what the absent spouse feels, or anything. You can't. All anyone can do is ----- encourage the person who IS here to take accountability for their actions. And there are a lot of things one can do in that avenue. Books, counselling, etc. How far are you going to push this one?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

If my husband gave me a very large amount of money to pay off debts that we had incurred as a married couple

And I opened up a bank account (or used a separate bank account I already had) and put a substantial amount of money in there

And I kept all of this secret from my husband and never told him

And he found out by snooping

I'd be mad too. I'd be embarrassed, mad, and afraid that I got caught, and I'd feel guilty, too.

I would know that I had seriously breached his trust in me and betrayed my duty to openness that I owe my spouse with regard to finances.

To avoid this guilt, I would tell my husband I had told him about the account (which might even be true), ignoring the fact that I had deposited a large amount of money there that I could spend at will on whatever I wanted without my husband's knowledge.

I would also deflect as much guilt and blame that I felt for keeping this secret by storming about and yelling loudly in the hopes that distracting him by accusing HIM of betrayal of trust he might just forget about mine.

and if I didn't have a job, I would expect my own husband to be FURIOUS at me, because every penny I spend without just cause means that he will have to work harder and longer and put off retirement that much further into the future. 

I don't have any idea what my husband would do with such a discovery--demand MC? leave for a week? move out? and I have no intention of ever finding out, because I love him far too much to hurt him and disrepect him in this way.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Well MC went better than expected today. Earlier I talked with my wife about what happenned and she ignores the part where she lied to me and is fixated on the fact that I snooped. She wanted to bring it up in MC so I took the lead and explained to the MC what I did, why I did it and what I found. I expected to get hammered for it but the MC did a good job of puting into perspective for my wife.

She didn't agree necessarily with what I did, but said she understood and let my wife know she has seen much worse and crazier behaviour from a suspicious spouse.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Paulination said:


> Well MC went better than expected today. Earlier I talked with my wife about what happenned and she ignores the part where she lied to me and is fixated on the fact that I snooped. She wanted to bring it up in MC so I took the lead and explained to the MC what I did, why I did it and what I found. I expected to get hammered for it but the MC did a good job of puting into perspective for my wife.
> 
> She didn't agree necessarily with what I did, but said she understood and let my wife know she has seen much worse and crazier behaviour from a suspicious spouse.


What did the MC say about the secret bank account and how your wife responded to its discovery?

Did the MC give you any insights into why she thought your wife was secretly stashing away money?

Did she ask your wife to tell you both why she secretly stashed the money away?

Did she tell your wife she should deeply apologise to you for betraying you over a number of years?

Did the MC explain to your wife that she gave you “good enough” reasons to be suspicious of her and that your snooping in those circumstances was fully justified?

Did the MC tell your wife in no uncertain terms that she must now fully disclose to you all of her secret activities and give you passwords to her email, phone etc. etc?

Did the MC give your wife a detailed plan of how to regain your trust in her. Did the MC explain to your wife that it may take two or three years for you to fully trust her again but even then you may never fully regain your trust in her?





Doesn’t seem any of the above happened. Which means all you are doing is accepting crumbs from their table. And you seem pleased about that!




Look. You are the breadwinner. Sure you have responsibilities wrt your wife and children and while they have a roof over their head, bread on their table you are doing a good job! But that good job is being abused by your wife.

And sure you should maybe step up your game in other areas of your marriage. But never underestimate the job you are already doing by being the breadwinner. Because as sure as heck if you underestimate it you WILL be taken for granted and have people like the MC and your wife chipping away at you.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

deejov said:


> We can't see into her head. Only know that she is pissed as hell that he was spying and she found it on the computer.
> 
> Look go back to the original threads.
> You guys HAMMERED this guy into thinking his wife was cheating. He insisted she wasn't... but went ahead and spied on her anyways. Because you guys insisted he should do it.
> ...


Of course you can see inside her head. Of course you can. Through her external behaviour.


Body language has a lexicon all of it’s own. Within that lexicon are words, sentences and paragraphs.

The lexicon associated with remorse contains behaviours like sadness, sorrow, recompense, apologies, promises of better behaviour in the future, asking for forgiveness.

There has been none of the above!



There has though been anger, threats, temper tantrums, blame shifting, gaslighting, denials, minimising, more lies and deceits, hatred, threats of divorce.

Believe me the latter are NOT the actions of a remorseful person. They are the actions of a GUILTY person who is not remorseful and who will not under any circumstances put their hand up and be HONEST about their activities and admit their guilt.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

The seriously BIG problem is that Paulination’s wife AND her MC (and some of the people here) think his wife’s secrecy and dishonesty is somehow “ok”!


Trust is one of the MASSIVE foundations of a happy and successful marriage. Everything that is good in a marriage is built on the foundations of TRUST and VULNERABILITY.

It can take a very long time to get those two foundations back once they have been broken. Sometimes even with all the love in the world it’s just not possible to get them back and the marriage is better ended.


There’s not even a HINT from either the MC or the guy’s wife that this is recognised let alone being worked on.

In fact the very opposite seems to be happening!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

AFEH said:


> The seriously BIG problem is that Paulination’s wife AND her MC (and some of the people here) think his wife’s secrecy and dishonesty is somehow “ok”!
> 
> 
> Trust is one of the MASSIVE foundations of a happy and successful marriage. Everything that is good in a marriage is built on the foundations of TRUST and VULNERABILITY.
> ...


So how does one open a secret bank account with your spouse's name on it, and the statements come right to the house but it's "secret" because the OP just never opened the mail, (he saw the envelopes, just wasn't interested in looking at them) 

The account wasn't secret. The balance was. He could have discovered this 4 years ago. It wasn't HIDDEN from him, in the sense you are thinking. 

Yeah, there is something fishy about not telling him about the balance and making him think they were broke. 

But ummm.... lots of people have done the same thing. Savers and spenders. 

But I"ll play along. She's lying and manipulating to try and leave him. She's not doing a very good job at it. I know what it takes to be a walkaway wife. I AM one. Objectively looking at this. Seriously. 

I just don't see the flags, from what the OP has said. She made some vague comments about being unhappy... and "heck" broke loose around her. But they started going to counselling, and OP has said things are better, maybe it was just a comment and nothing to it, really. 

My first impression was she was bored, and felt "un-noticed". I still think that. But I also think the OP is trying VERY hard and I give him credit for that. 

I also recognize what it's like to live with someone who is a "lost soul" and doesn't know why they are unhappy, they are restless and don't have direction. Doesn't make them an evil deluded person planning something horrible. That would be my mother. She qualifies. I've seen both sides of the spectrum, AEFH. LIke you, I know WHY my mother is mentally ill. Family history of abuse, and I know better to avoid her. Haven't met the OP's wife. Can't say what her problem is.

And in the end, no matter who you meet in this world, all you can do is control YOUR reactions, and how you treat people. 

I"m just stumped here. He provides income, house, takes care of her and she's a b!tch for not being satsified with that. Lots of posts saying she should appreciate him for everything he does. He should knock her down a peg and make her realise she would be homeless without him. 

She won't be homeless. She'll take him to cleaners first.

Where's the love??? If she feels neglected, un-noticed, and her complaints are not heard... what happens? She gets restless, she isn't happy. He is LUCKY she said something at all. Most walkaways don't.


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## lovelygirl (Apr 15, 2012)

Paulination said:


> Earlier I talked with my wife about what happenned and she ignores the part where she lied to me and is fixated on the fact that I snooped.


She's trying to cover her fault by bringing up your snooping. It's her strategy to concentrate on your snooping to make it sound like it was a big deal. 
Don't put up with that!.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Well then as a walk away wife you will side with his wife. That’s where your empathy and compassion will be. And looking through those lenses of yours you seem to be seeing things that are just not there and ignoring things that are! It is called bias.


Plus through that lens of yours you will put in words and phrases that simply don’t exist …. _“He provides income, house, takes care of her and she's a b!tch for not being satisfied with that”._ They are your dramatising, deliberately and conceitedly emotion invoking words.



And good luck with being a walk away wife. You’re even PROUD of it. Maybe next time when you have problems within a relationship you will confront and address them at the EARLIEST OPPORTUNITY and work really hard on making it a happy and successful one. Maybe next time you will CONFRONT instead of sitting there, simmering away with your passive anger and resentment and slowly but surely withdrawing the love you once used to give and killing your marriage just like, as you say/infer the OP’s wife is doing!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

deejov said:


> So how does one open a secret bank account with your spouse's name on it, and the statements come right to the house but it's "secret" because the OP just never opened the mail, (he saw the envelopes, just wasn't interested in looking at them)
> 
> The account wasn't secret. The balance was. He could have discovered this 4 years ago. It wasn't HIDDEN from him, in the sense you are thinking.
> 
> ...


Be warned Paulination!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Paulination: I'm glad that your recent consultation with the MC went better than expected, and that she saw through the smoke screen your wife had erected in order to cover her own deceit.

I remain of the opinion that whilst snooping is never a good idea, desperate situations can call for desperate measures. I doubt you would have taken to snooping if she hadn't been blowing you off each time you tried to communicate with her, and rather than your wife fixating on your snooping - an explanation as to why she saw fit to secret money away from the family pot would have been more appropriate, IMO.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

deejov said:


> So how does one open a secret bank account with your spouse's name on it, and the statements come right to the house but it's "secret" because the OP just never opened the mail, (he saw the envelopes, just wasn't interested in looking at them)


My wife has a "secret" account. She gets the statements out of the mail and hides them before I come home. I found out about it (although I knew something like this was going on) and I said "OK" and left it at that.

Our mc was impressed by this. He also said (privately to me) that it was OK to snoop


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ten,
When you started posting your wife routinely screamed at you. She was by any standard emotionally abusive and you were by your own admission a total doormat. 

How has that changed? Why are you ok with her hiding money when she was so intensely aggresive about your $200 inheritance? 





Ten_year_hubby said:


> My wife has a "secret" account. She gets the statements out of the mail and hides them before I come home. I found out about it (although I knew something like this was going on) and I said "OK" and left it at that.
> 
> Our mc was impressed by this. He also said (privately to me) that it was OK to snoop


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

AFEH said:


> Doesn’t seem any of the above happened. Which means all you are doing is accepting crumbs from their table. And you seem pleased about that!


Sorry, I wrote what I could last night and because I had so much going on I had to talk in broad generalities. My wife explained the money as money she put aside from a couple of sources as a rainy day fund because she doesn't believe I am good at saving money (which is why she didn't tell me about it). Classic blameshifting.

The MC wasn't harsh at all for the fact that she lied about not only that, but other things as well. The conversation kept moving back to how my wife felt so I had to force my viewpoint on her actions in there.

The MC was supportive of me whic is more than I expected.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Ten,
> When you started posting your wife routinely screamed at you. She was by any standard emotionally abusive and you were by your own admission a total doormat.
> 
> How has that changed? Why are you ok with her hiding money when she was so intensely aggresive about your $200 inheritance?


Mem,

What has changed is that I led myself to understand my wife's problems, where they come from and how they manifest. I have developed compassion toward her and the pain she feels that drives her behaviors. I have separated myself from any feelings of betrayal, embarrassment, loss or helplessness that I might experience if she walked out the door tomorrow and never came back. I developed the necessary homemaking skills and external resources to feel confident that I can raise my three kids on my own if I have to. I researched the adjudication of family court in my district and understand how it works.

We've covered a lot of ground since the $200. I was never a doormat despite what I might have said. I grew up in a calm, stable household and had relatively pleasant life experiences. Until I got married, I had never experienced being screamed and raged at by a domestic partner. When I found myself in these situations, I became emotionally flooded, I couldn't think and I couldn't act. After ten years of this I developed some PTSD symptoms and I'm still a little emotionally reactive from the whole experience. Just because I don't like being attacked and I don't like being screamed at and I don't like being treated with scorn and contempt doesn't mean I'm a doormat or have dysfunctional conflict avoidance. It just means I'm into something I wasn't prepared for and I didn't know what to do. It's going to take some real work before my wife gets herself right with money. Meanwhile, it only makes things worse if I get upset about it.

I almost forgot, I provide no material support whatsoever for my wife to have contact with anyone who supports her negative attitudes toward men. I don't prevent her from going where ever she wants with whomever she wants or talking to whomever she wants, but I don't lift a finger or spend a cent to help her with this. And I let her know what I think about these women. I used the think all this anti-man stuff was amusing and inconsequential, but no more.

There is not a lot support available for male victims of domestic partner abuse. Even our marriage counselor (that I picked) tried to accuse me of causing it. Several people on this board have done the same. I guess this is because in their minds, it has to be the man. My wife has had some counseling and she has calmed down some with less of of her mom and certain friends getting her thinking messed up. We take things one day at a time and hope for the best


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

AFEH said:


> Well then as a walk away wife you will side with his wife. That’s where your empathy and compassion will be. And looking through those lenses of yours you seem to be seeing things that are just not there and ignoring things that are! It is called bias.
> 
> 
> Plus through that lens of yours you will put in words and phrases that simply don’t exist …. _“He provides income, house, takes care of her and she's a b!tch for not being satisfied with that”._ They are your dramatising, deliberately and conceitedly emotion invoking words.
> ...


Naw, I'm deluded. Maybe mentally ill. 


I was taking the OP's side. 
I looked at his threads.
He did NOT think his wife was cheating. You guys ran him off for awhile, and then started up again with the posts that she is deceiving, etc etc blah blah he's just too blind to see it, just wait and see she is going to take him for a RIDE.

Good grief. All this experience (BAD experiences) warning him over and over that she is evil. 

My story was here. I did not sit quietly and fume. I did a frickin lot of work. Mostly on MYSELF. I'll try not to laugh.... you are so dead wrong, but welcome to your opinons. You WIN. The world is evil. Thank goodness you saved another soul. I'm more concerned with mine. And giving people the benefit of the doubt. Especially if it's someone you love.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

deejov said:


> Naw, I'm deluded. Maybe mentally ill.
> 
> 
> I was taking the OP's side.
> ...


:sleeping:


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## ZacThomas (Mar 5, 2012)

Your wife lied to you, she is faulty. You don't have to leave the house. Just divert your mind somewhere else so that you could easily get out of this situation.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Ten,
Forgive my inflammatory terminology. No one likes being treated that way - so we are in agreement there. And I understand that your calm/healthy environment growing up did not prepare you for this type marriage. 

Seriously though, what are your coping mechanisms when your wife rages out? At what point do you calmy say (after a melt down):
"There is nothing to discuss until you apologize for your outburst" AND stick to that. Whatever the outcome. 






Ten_year_hubby said:


> Mem,
> 
> What has changed is that I led myself to understand my wife's problems, where they come from and how they manifest. I have developed compassion toward her and the pain she feels that drives her behaviors. I have separated myself from any feelings of betrayal, embarrassment, loss or helplessness that I might experience if she walked out the door tomorrow and never came back. I developed the necessary homemaking skills and external resources to feel confident that I can raise my three kids on my own if I have to. I researched the adjudication of family court in my district and understand how it works.
> 
> ...


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

Well the snooping issue hasn't come up since MC and her anger seems non-existent. I don't sense any resentment either but maybe that is because unlike other issue in the past, we talked this one through to completion with a mediator (the MC).

I have shown absolutley no interest or suspicions towards her computer use or her cellphone. Likewise, she has lessened the stranglehold on her phone and actually leaves it lying around un-supervised. The more she lightens up, the less I am curious, funny how that works.

We seem to have reconcilled our issues in general and life feels good again except for the fact that she still show little to no affection. This really is the sticking point at the moment in my mind. I don't try to talk to her directly about it anymore because the MC and her are on the same page in thinking. They both say "it will just take time for it to come back". The sex is fine though I would prefer it more frequently (once, sometimes twice a week)but that is mainly a function of our schedule more than anything else.

Affection is a need to me but there is no way to talk my way to it. The last thing I want to do is fight about it so I just act as if everything is fine and it is, just wish to connect that last dot.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Ten,
> 
> Seriously though, what are your coping mechanisms when your wife rages out? At what point do you calmy say (after a melt down):
> "There is nothing to discuss until you apologize for your outburst" AND stick to that. Whatever the outcome.


Mem,

I am able to pretty much disconnect at will so her raging doesn't bother me as much now. I used to be resentful over it but no more. At a later point when she is not longer "under the influence" I make it clear that she needs to do something about her behavior and I offer my support and help. Occasionally she apologizes but she has some problems with this. 

The way men and women process anger and what triggers their anger is different. Strategies that may work for angry men don't necessarily work for angry women. For example, the often recommended consequence of leaving the room gets a very different reaction from an angry woman as opposed to an angry man. Most, if not all, the recommendations for dealing with an angry spouse are developed for women with an angry husbands. Angry women are included as an afterthought and usually without any research or trial application.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Paulination said:


> Well the snooping issue hasn't come up since MC and her anger seems non-existent. I don't sense any resentment either but maybe that is because unlike other issue in the past, we talked this one through to completion with a mediator (the MC).
> 
> I have shown absolutley no interest or suspicions towards her computer use or her cellphone. Likewise, she has lessened the stranglehold on her phone and actually leaves it lying around un-supervised. The more she lightens up, the less I am curious, funny how that works.
> 
> ...


I am by no means trivializing I just want to understand. Are you saying that through all of this you guys are still having sex once or twice a week? And that she shows no affection towards you between those times?

One of the reasons why MC is not good for me is because I find they BS and don't get to the point. Has the MC asked your wife EXACTLY what it is that has made her unhappy instead of all of this speaking in platitudes and riddles "emotional abandonment" stuff? I think what would help you two is for somebody to ask her point blank to name an instance where you make her feel emotionally abandoned. 

It's such a broad and non discript term. It can mean anything really.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

sinnister said:


> I am by no means trivializing I just want to understand. Are you saying that through all of this you guys are still having sex once or twice a week? And that she shows no affection towards you between those times?
> 
> One of the reasons why MC is not good for me is because I find they BS and don't get to the point. Has the MC asked your wife EXACTLY what it is that has made her unhappy instead of all of this speaking in platitudes and riddles "emotional abandonment" stuff? I think what would help you two is for somebody to ask her point blank to name an instance where you make her feel emotionally abandoned.
> 
> It's such a broad and non discript term. It can mean anything really.


We have sex but inbetween, there are no overt affectionate gestures on her part. When I get home from work I have to seek her out for a "hi", and she will give me a half hug. She won't come to me to cuddle or try to hold my hand, ever. If I try to hold her hand, she'll do it. If I want to cuddle, she'll do it but has these "rules" on how to position herself or myself because of her back. It has gotten to the point where I no longer bother. As far as kissing, I got a peck on the cheek the other day for the first time in months and that was only after 4 year old whispered to her to "kiss daddy".

Mind you she's not cold to me. She smiles and is pleasent and we genuinely enjoy spending time together and always have lots to talk about. She's just lost the need tp be affectionate outside of sex every now and then.

I have brought up the affection problem (as I see it) in MC and the blame falls on me. Apparently I neglected her feelings for the last four years causing her to detach and the bi-product of that is her not being able to show me love "in that way". I am supposed to be the model husband in order for her to re-attach herself and over time, those feelings will come back. 

This leads me to your second question. When my wife told me she was unhappy I probed her for the reasons. After struggling for a reason she said two things, over the last 4 years I drank too much and I "snapped" at the kids. She said she complained over and over about it but I wouldn't listen. This, was a complete re-write of history. I did not drink too much and was only as stern with the kids as the situations dictated. But, believing that this was her perception I knocked the drinking down to a glass of wine with dinner and am overly patient with the kids. I have been this way for 4 months and by my wifes own admission, I have made vast improvements but at her end there is not a stich of progress in the affection department.

I truly believe that my wifes emotions are being affected by some other issue not related to me. I believe as a defense mechanism she has no other option but to assume that her feelings, frustrations, sadness or whatever is a result of me. 

I come to this conclusion because she had to re-write history to provide the only two examples she could point to. I have reworked myself physically, emotionally and intellectually in a way that has elevated me to a new level and yet she is still the same. Doesn't seem unhappy anymore, but who knows. She obviously can't blame me, she played that card and I responded.

She is just not open to any other reasons for her negative emotions. She said her feelings started changing right after our daughters birth. I racked my mind as to what might have happened back then and then I realized that was when she started a new birth control pill, Tri-Nessa. I look it up and BAM!!! 8 out of 10 women describe the exact symptoms that my wife has complained about and blamed me for (she doesn't blame me for the weight gain). 

Speaking of that, she can't lose the final 25 pounds of her baby weight regardless of how hard she works out. That is just wierd. Many women on TriNessa complain of the same thing. Is TriNessa to blame for much of this? Who knows but at least rule it out.

I went to her with the research and asked her to at least get off of it for a few months and see how you feel. I'll wear condoms in the meantime (which I hate) and we'll see if it helps. Nope, thats not the problem. Every possible explanation other then me gets shot down. Maybe I am responsible for everything but at least we should try to rule some things out.

Can you tell I have been thinking about this? Rant over.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Paulination said:


> I truly believe that my wifes emotions are being affected by some other issue not related to me. I believe as a defense mechanism she has no other option but to assume that her feelings, frustrations, sadness or whatever is a result of me.


Paulination,

I think this is a very astute observation. In my limited experience, I have found that the wife's self image, her internal opinion of herself, can be very important in these situations. For example, a depressed person may have a very negative self image. Drugs (and certainly alcohol) can cause depressive symptoms.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

What you describe does also fit if she was sexually abused as a pre-adolescent child.

Don't be too eager to diagnose her. Her **** is her ****. It can be a comfort or relief for you to figure out what is a root cause, but ultimately what matters is she brings to the marriage enough to meet your needs and desires. And she has to do that without crossing your boundaries. So it is much more important to communicate with her about what you want in a relationship (and envision in the future) and your boundaries.

Figuring out the root cause is a low priority item. Don't make it your job to fix her.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I see some paralells between your wifes behaviour and mine.

The lack of affection is classic mrs. Sinnister. And it's ofcourse my fault for being so distant when my 5 year old was born.

This along with your wifes explanation reaks of an a grasping at straws type excuse. Showing affection is supposed to come naturally to women.

I wouldnt rule out the pharmaceutical aspect in your case.

In mine...she never went back on BC after the birth of our daughter as it wasn't required...much to my dismay.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are you going back to MC? You can bring up the birth control issue there.


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