# Yes, another “I don’t know what to do” post



## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Hi all,
My wife and I have been married for 10 years. 2 kids, 9 and 6.
Trying to keep it short:
When we were dating before we got married, my wife told me about the amount of partners she was with before hand and some of the experiences she had. I honestly had a tough time digesting it but she really did (and I believe still does) love me and seemed very loyal. To me, that was more important than her past. 
We got married but I still have troubles keeping her past out of my head. I understand this is my problem and not hers so I try to hide “the pain” as best as I can. 
A few years back she was on a work trip in Vegas. She left her iPad at home where I can see all of her messages. Although she obviously didn’t realize it. She was drinking with coworkers and was messaging a lot of people. Well time had passed and I wrote her to say goodnight and she was so drunk that her messages didn’t really make sense. I was upset but let it go. After some time she had a lot of messages on her iPad. So I got up and read what was going on. She went to the strip club with a few guys and another girl. I did not care for one of those guys at all. When I first met him he talked about how a random girl we saw was hot and what a rack she had etc. I was pretty concerned at that point where I had called her and said I was not happy about what was going on. She defended it and said I just didn’t trust her. At the end, I was able to talk her into going back to her hotel room. I did find out from her that the other girl did end up having sex with one of the guys even though she was married
We ended up going to couples therapy after that. She did say that guy (that I had reservations about) and her were chatting but she wouldn’t share what they talked about. I also asked to see pictures from that night. She gave me her phone and when I looked at her photos there was nothing. But when I looked at her deleted photos, there were a handful from the night. They were close but at least clothes were still on. Thank god.
Another episode is when we were having an argument and when she didn’t get her way she decided just to say “[email protected]&? You” I know it might not sound like a big deal to some people but I really believe if you really love someone, you don’t say that or any other remark like that towards them. 
A few months back, we were getting the kids ready for school in the morning. The 9 year old was not being very cooperative. She she starting yelling at him to get him to move. Nothing major. But when I felt it was starting to become a bit excessive, I said “OK, calm down” Her reply was “Excuse me, I am talking to MY son right now.” It made me feel like she had crossed the line of respect/control.

Lastly, (I know this is a long into and I apologize) a few days ago we where having a conversation with our 9 year old. She had brought up a memory she had about something that happened on a trip in the mountains. Nothing bad but just about someone getting altitude sickness. However, I know on that same trip is when she when one of her “sexual experiences”. It just grossed me out so much to know that she even mentioned something from that same trip to one of our kids. I literally feel disgusted.

I know I could be over analyzing these situations and blowing them out of proportion But I wanted to see what others might think. I am honestly losing sleep trying to make a decision to stay with or separate because of these.
Think I should try to work it out (with her and myself) more or no? If so, at resource you would recommend that could help me?
Thanks for any reply.


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

A person who cares about their marriage will guard it and avoid a situation where they might fall under temptatation and she wouldn't bring up past experiences, unless she's reminiscing about it. The more times she brings up past experiences, the less she is connecting with you.

I had started with a relationship with somebody who kept bringing her old boyfriend's name into the conversation. That was the end of getting to know her.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Another “Work trip to Vegas”. 😞😞
If you believe that your wife went back to her room alone that night then you’ll believe anything. Any married woman who drinks herself into a stupor and goes to a strip club in Vegas with a known player doesn’t have any respect for her husband or her marriage. To me it sounds like she would have ****ed the other guy just to spite you.
As for her past history is concerned you married her and now you’re having buyers remorse. 
And rightly so in my opinion. 
One question and please be honest. Is your wife out of your league looks wise?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

RMguy said:


> A few months back, we were getting the kids ready for school in the morning. The 9 year old was not being very cooperative. She she starting yelling at him to get him to move. Nothing major. But when I felt it was starting to become a bit excessive, I said “OK, calm down” _Her reply was “Excuse me, I am talking to *MY* son right now.”_


Uhhh… anyone else want to say it?

I’m tired of being the one to say it.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Yes! DNA your kids. You’re super passive. You shouldn’t have to “talk your wife into” returning to her hotel room from a strip club with other men. You are living a in Egypt near a certain river if you think your wife has been faithful.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

I haven't read anything that would lead me to separate except for the Vegas incident. Work trips stop being work trips when coworkers go to a strip club and get drunk. That behavior is just not appropriate for a married person. The very fact that one of her married friends got laid is all the reason you need to tell her that kind of thing will never happen again as long as you are married. Have there been any more work trips since then? Her not sharing what she was talking about to another man is also wrong. She's your wife and she shouldn't be hiding anything, especially any interactions with another man. I would have pressed her hard for what was said. That was all a few years ago, so I don't think you will get anywhere if you go back to her about it now. About the only thing I can think of would be telling her she needs to take a polygraph. Has she every raised your suspicion about cheating any other time?

As for the other stuff, it may not be great, but it doesn't sound like divorce grounds. 

Sadly I have said FU to my wife in the past during arguments. Maybe happened 2 or 3 times in 30+ years of marriage. It was stupid and said in anger without thinking. I'm sure she called me some less than nice names too. I apologized and we got over it. Sometimes spouse argue and sometimes we say stupid things. You can't let it get to you, unless it becomes a common occurrence. If the marriage is strong you communicate, clear the air and get back to it without any problems. 

The issue you are having with her past is called retroactive jealousy. It can be a *****, but as you said, it is your problem not hers. My wife was engaged and living with a guy before I met her. Off and on over the years I've struggled with that. Knowing she was in love with someone else, the sex, you name it. She didn't share tons of details, but the mind is great at making stuff up. Every time one of those thoughts pops into my mind I bring myself back to me and her. I've long since surpassed her ex-fiancé in ever way imaginable and there is nothing to be jealous about. I would say as long as she isn't bringing up the sordid details of those relationships I wouldn't worry about it. With the details you've provided I don't see anything wrong with the her mentioning the altitude sickness thing. It may have been a trigger for you, but unless she said something like "this guy I was sleeping with before you dad and I met got altitude sickness" you're just going to have to deal with it. You can't expect her to walk on eggshells about all her past experiences in life. Again, so long as she isn't reminiscing about the sexual aspects of her past with you and/or the kids you have to live with it. 

It doesn't sound like any of these things happened recently. What made you decide to come here now?


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

jonty30 said:


> A person who cares about their marriage will guard it and avoid a situation where they might fall under temptatation and she wouldn't bring up past experiences, unless she's reminiscing about it. The more times she brings up past experiences, the less she is connecting with you.
> 
> I had started with a relationship with somebody who kept bringing her old boyfriend's name into the conversation. That was the end of getting to know her.


i should clarify that she hasn’t (purposely) brought up any past experiences recently. When she mentioned the mountain trip, she honestly probably didn’t realize I still remembered what she told me about it in the past. 
But I agree with you in the aspect of if I didn’t try to protect and guard the marriage then we shouldn’t be together for sure.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

RMguy said:


> i should clarify that she hasn’t (purposely) brought up any past experiences recently. When she mentioned the mountain trip, she honestly probably didn’t realize I still remembered what she told me about it in the past.
> But I agree with you in the aspect of if I didn’t try to protect and guard the marriage then we shouldn’t be together for sure.


You realize that by being freaked out about her mountain comment which was not a sexual comment. It was about motion sickness. You are indicating she should forget or block out or never mention any part of her regular life that existed before you. 

You have some legitamate concerns but some are just retroactive jealousy that you knew about before marrying. If you knew you had this you really shouldn't have married anyone but a virgin. You are holding something against her from before she married you. That you know about. No secrets or lies. If you couldn't handle it you shouldn't have married her. It isn't fair.

Now some of the other stuff the vegas trip big red flag and time for a boundaries conversation and maybe a polygraph.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Andy1001 said:


> Another “Work trip to Vegas”. 😞😞
> If you believe that your wife went back to her room alone that night then you’ll believe anything. Any married woman who drinks herself into a stupor and goes to a strip club in Vegas with a known player doesn’t have any respect for her husband or her marriage. To me it sounds like she would have ****ed the other guy just to spite you.
> As for her past history is concerned you married her and now you’re having buyers remorse.
> And rightly so in my opinion.
> One question and please be honest. Is your wife out of your league looks wise?


You could be right about not going back to her room alone. I was on the phone with her when she went back to the room but I obviously was not there myself.

Honestly, she is not out of my league. I have had better looking ex girlfriends but my current has a much better heart and that’s what sold me.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

GusPolinski said:


> Uhhh… anyone else want to say it?
> 
> I’m tired of being the one to say it.


 Just say it already. 
Sounds like you have had a lot of practice. Probably not a good thing though.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> Yes! DNA your kids. You’re super passive. You shouldn’t have to “talk your wife into” returning to her hotel room from a strip club with other men. You are living a in Egypt near a certain river if you think your wife has been faithful.


I have absolutely no reason to believe the kiddos are not mine. I mean they are a terror and goofy so for sure they are mine. In all honesty, that is not a worry for me. 
However, I do appreciate the feedback. I don’t think all to many people outside of my work so it’s good to know that I am “super passive.” I need to work on that then.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

What sort of work trip involves going to Vegas and a strip club?


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> What sort of work trip involves going to Vegas and a strip club?


Lots, surprisingly for Las Vegas. 
What people do off the clock is their own business, although I would not visit a strip club. 
When I was in Vegas for two weeks, I was too busy seeing all the attractions in the casinos.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

RMguy said:


> Just say it already.
> Sounds like you have had a lot of practice. Probably not a good thing though.


What @GusPolinski was thinking about was that you should DNA your kids. 
@Evinrude58 filled in the blanks.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

Hi @RMguy
The Vegas trip.. Man, you need to wake up.. No married women that respects her husband and marriage goes to such places with other men!

It seems to me that you have not set any boundaries with your wife and now you are paying the price!
*You need to dig more about this Vegas trip!*
And you need to set firm boundaries with her or else it will be your undoing!

Understand one important relationship concept that many men forget or don't know:

Women are the gatekeepers to sexual intimacy!
Men are the gatekeepers for relationship commitment!

Men who forget about this established concept turn into weak doormats and get walked on!
Sit and think about three major boundaries (you can put more if you need), example: *No night outs without you*, *no drinking without you*, *no friends from the opposite sex*.
Lay your boundaries in a VERY calm firm way (like a CEO when he is about to fire half his company to save what's left) even if she doesn't agree and start to negotiate, shut her down, and make it clear that you will not be sticking around if she crossed any of them, tell her that's the deal now and make a reference to her Vegas night how irresponsible she was!

@RMguy think about it.. No really sit and think about it.. Imagine if you didn't find out about the strip club, she could have done what her married female friend did (*assuming she didn't already do it*),
*So You need to dig more about this Vegas trip!*


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## jonty30 (Oct 23, 2021)

Kaliber said:


> Hi @RMguy
> The Vegas trip.. Man, you need to wake up.. No married women that respects her husband and marriage goes to such places with other men!
> 
> It seems to me that you have not set any boundaries with your wife and now you are paying the price!
> ...


Better yet, book a trip with her.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> What @GusPolinski was thinking about was that you should DNA your kids.
> @Evinrude58 filled in the blanks.


Yooo man read his latest update.

Apparently he has nothing to worry about.

😳😬😆😂🤣🤪🥴


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

I think you have to drop the retroactive jealousy. Sounds like you knew about her past before marriage, so you essentially accepted it at that point.

Regarding treating the kids emotionally etc, I'm very familiar with dealing with that. You need to separately sit her down and tell her that is not acceptable... you are an adult and can stand up for yourself, but they can't. They were learn to model that behavior and it is not something you want transferred to them.

The vegas incident sounds like she has boundary issues. Expectations of how your spouse behaves around such event should be discussed and agreed to... any spouse has the right to feel safe from infidelity.

Do you feel that you are operating as it is the two of you versus the world, or she is out for herself and you part of what she battle against? It sounds to me like she may be one of those people primarily concerned with how things effect her only, and willing to put others out over insignificant impacts to her.


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## re16 (Oct 9, 2012)

RMguy said:


> I have absolutely no reason to believe the kiddos are not mine. I mean they are a terror and goofy so for sure they are mine. In all honesty, that is not a worry for me.
> However, I do appreciate the feedback. I don’t think all to many people outside of my work so it’s good to know that I am “super passive.” I need to work on that then.


This is the attitude of every passive man on here that has been cheated on. Never believe that you have some special unicorn not capable of infidelity. I'm not saying its happening, but it surely could be. One thing about her past, it is clear that at some point she enjoyed male attention, so you need to keep that in the back of your mind at all times. A few compliments from a co-worker and...


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

RMguy said:


> Hi all,
> My wife and I have been *married for 10 years. 2 kids, 9 and 6*.
> Trying to keep it short:
> When we were dating before we got married, my wife told me about the amount of partners she was with before hand and some of the experiences she had.
> ...


First, only the Vegas thing should be of concern. If I were in your shoes, I would believe that she backed off the slippery slope of a physical affair at the last minute. That raises a lot of concern. Perhaps the most concerning thing is that the company she works for has a culture that allows for cheating on business trips. The other woman didn't object to going to a strip club with members of the opposite sex and didn't stop from having sex when she was married. That is someone you don't want you wife to be around and it sounds like the men didn't stop things. That means it is a bad company culture that does not value marriage. You should tell her that if she wants to remain married to you she should leave the company and find a job elsewhere.

Now, I would like to ask or point out that your marriage counseling probably didn't really cure your problems. From the marriage counseling session the two of you should have agreed to explicit boundaries in terms of personal behavior while apart. If that had happened and the two of you reconciled, you wouldn't be wondering if you should divorce or not.

If you were my brother or brother-in-law, I would advise you for the sake of your two children to get a much better marriage counselor, and focus of boundaries and rebuilding trust. If it doesn't succeed, then discuss during marriage counseling the concept of a good and fair divorce that has as little impact on your children.

What I think is happening is that subconsiously you have decided you want a divorce and are trying to talk yourself into it. This will lead to sabotaging the marriage so that you feel you need to divorce. You sound like you are working yourself up to viewing yourself as a victim of your wife and you will never be able to trust her sexually or in raising your children. She has clearly done some things that have not honored your marriage. 

You are a grown man and get to make up your own mind. You and your W have tried marriage counseling, so it shouldn't be a stretch to try it again with someone different and in a more focused set of directions to the marriage counselor. This is especially true considering you have two children. Good luck.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I haven't read anything that would lead me to separate except for the Vegas incident. Work trips stop being work trips when coworkers go to a strip club and get drunk. That behavior is just not appropriate for a married person. The very fact that one of her married friends got laid is all the reason you need to tell her that kind of thing will never happen again as long as you are married. Have there been any more work trips since then? Her not sharing what she was talking about to another man is also wrong. She's your wife and she shouldn't be hiding anything, especially any interactions with another man. I would have pressed her hard for what was said. That was all a few years ago, so I don't think you will get anywhere if you go back to her about it now. About the only thing I can think of would be telling her she needs to take a polygraph. Has she every raised your suspicion about cheating any other time?
> 
> As for the other stuff, it may not be great, but it doesn't sound like divorce grounds.
> 
> ...


There has some more work trips since then but nothing to the extend of that one trip. The next morning after the strip climb I told her that I was very angry and I didn’t want to talk to her until she got home. Which was scheduled for 3 days later. She tried calling and texting no less than a dozen times that same day when I told her that. I didn’t answer her. Finally she sent a text saying she really needed to talk to me. I was afraid she was sick or something bad happened so I finally called her. She said she was sorry for doing that and ended up coming back home that same day. 2 days early. It didn’t really change much for me. I was still pretty pissed at her. We ended up going to a couples therapist as I mentioned before. We also agreed that she can’t drink anymore on any work trips.
As you said, it’s a little late to revisit it now although you can tell, I am not totally over it. She hasn’t raised my suspicion about cheating any other time. This is the first time I have heard of using a polygraph in a relationship. I would feel that would be grounds for a separation itself. Is this common practice now in relationships?

I can understand the cussing thing as well. I think that one is a good one to revisit and really let her know how much I do not appreciate it. She might not understand how much it affects me so some communication can resolve that issue. Well communication without cussing that is. lol
What sort of things get you so frustrated that you have cussed at your wife?

You are correct about the RJ. It is a son of a b****! Unfortunately my mind is pretty strong and makes things pretty graphic for me. She knows about it too. So she does her best not to say things that set it off. So many times I have wondered if it would just be better not to be a long or deep loving relationship. Saying that, the more active your partner is then the worse it is. I have had partners where they had a few partners and I am not as affected. But definitely not the case currently. So this is an issue for me. Well.. and her. I have tried to completely get rid of it but to no avail. I am not insecure of her past but more so angry about it.

I decided to come here now because of how I felt when she told the story to my 9 year old. I felt angry about her experience and how it indirectly is popping up with the kids and the sick feeling I got. Almost like it’s tough to deal with it when it’s just her and I but now with the kids being here, it puts it on a different level for me I guess


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Diana7 said:


> What sort of work trip involves going to Vegas and a strip club?


The work was visiting some businesses there. The strip club was purely for fun. Or at least fun for her.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

How old were you guys when you met/married? Was she in her late 20s?


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Kaliber said:


> Hi @RMguy
> The Vegas trip.. Man, you need to wake up.. No married women that respects her husband and marriage goes to such places with other men!
> 
> It seems to me that you have not set any boundaries with your wife and now you are paying the price!
> ...


I do appreciate the response. I agree with you. Not sure when I became so passive. I am usually more of the type not to be but I guess I became more “subtle” or just more.. well passive. 
You are correct. This does need to be established or might as well just give a free damn pass for whatever goes and then be stuck with a mess when I establish boundaries are crossed. Like the Vegas trip. 
Thanks again for this post and I will be taking it into account.


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## CountryMike (Jun 1, 2021)

RMguy said:


> You could be right about not going back to her room alone. I was on the phone with her when she went back to the room but I obviously was not there myself.
> 
> Honestly, she is not out of my league. I have had better looking ex girlfriends but my current has a much better heart and that’s what sold me.


Sadly, her better heart is full of holes, cause man she's comfortable fooling around on you. 

Time for a change for you. You'll get past this relationship and be better off.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Those that like to walk on the ledge are apt to fall off.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

re16 said:


> I think you have to drop the retroactive jealousy. Sounds like you knew about her past before marriage, so you essentially accepted it at that point.
> 
> Regarding treating the kids emotionally etc, I'm very familiar with dealing with that. You need to separately sit her down and tell her that is not acceptable... you are an adult and can stand up for yourself, but they can't. They were learn to model that behavior and it is not something you want transferred to them.
> 
> ...


I agree about the RJ. Honestly can’t just drop it as much as I would like to but I can’t put that over her head.

I have the same sort of up bringing where there was a lot of mental/physical abuse and I don’t want it for my kids either.Not saying they don’t need to be disciplined but in a effective manner.

Agree with the Vegas thing as well. Not thatI need to bring the event up per se, but to use it as an so example of setting the boundaries.

Operating as a team or not. I can say it feels like at times it can be either or. Lately it has been more of a team but at times it was more so for her only in the past.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

re16 said:


> This is the attitude of every passive man on here that has been cheated on. Never believe that you have some special unicorn not capable of infidelity. I'm not saying its happening, but it surely could be. One thing about her past, it is clear that at some point she enjoyed male attention, so you need to keep that in the back of your mind at all times. A few compliments from a co-worker and...


You bring a point point up. As much as I would like to deny, I still need to consider it.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> First, only the Vegas thing should be of concern. If I were in your shoes, I would believe that she backed off the slippery slope of a physical affair at the last minute. That raises a lot of concern. Perhaps the most concerning thing is that the company she works for has a culture that allows for cheating on business trips. The other woman didn't object to going to a strip club with members of the opposite sex and didn't stop from having sex when she was married. That is someone you don't want you wife to be around and it sounds like the men didn't stop things. That means it is a bad company culture that does not value marriage. You should tell her that if she wants to remain married to you she should leave the company and find a job elsewhere.
> 
> Now, I would like to ask or point out that your marriage counseling probably didn't really cure your problems. From the marriage counseling session the two of you should have agreed to explicit boundaries in terms of personal behavior while apart. If that had happened and the two of you reconciled, you wouldn't be wondering if you should divorce or not.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. Seems like the theme here is the boundaries and limits in the relationship was not totally solid. Even if it were and she crossed the line, I should have reacted in a different way. 
The theme also follow the path of me not acting on it (either before or after) as well. Before I bring up couples therapy, I am wondering if I need to go myself just for sake of retroactive jealousy and maybe even esteem. One of the major reasons I am here asking for advice is I really do not have anyone else to turn to. Obviously can’t go to my wife for advice. Haha


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> How old were you guys when you met/married? Was she in her late 20s?


Met at 31 and got married at 33


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

RMguy said:


> Met at 31 and got married at 33


Oh damn man. Ok yeah it's coming into focus about the stuff she did before and how you feel about that. Only a guess, but do you feel you were just the safe option? Got married right before the lights went out for good in the club, pumped out the first kid ASAP, no parting for you guys. Instead of enjoying each other as a couple you went right to the parenthood.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

BTW, did you ever tell the spouse of the OTHER woman who cheated that she did?


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## Galabar01 (Mar 20, 2019)

RMguy said:


> Just say it already.
> Sounds like you have had a lot of practice. Probably not a good thing though.


He was referring to “Excuse me, I am talking to MY son right now” as being a Freudian slip, with the wife telling you that the kids are _only_ her's genetically (i.e. not yours).


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

No woman that is honest goes on a with trip to Vegas, then goes to a strip club with other men. It’s always the OTHER married women getting plowed by the coworkers…. Not muffin! She was just there being a good girl…….in a strip joint….. with other male coworkers……..while married………. Off in another city…….. 
Dude, this sounds like a double date to me. 

You have some weird stuff going on in your head. Probably because you’ve accepted some weird behavior from your wife and your subconscious is having a field day.

What’s done is done. If there’s any more work trips taking place, good chance she’s sowing oats on them. The married Gf cheated with the male coworker???? Birds of a feather flock together.
I wouldn’t trust your wife as far as I could throw her.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Al_Bundy said:


> Oh damn man. Ok yeah it's coming into focus about the stuff she did before and how you feel about that. Only a guess, but do you feel you were just the safe option? Got married right before the lights went out for good in the club, pumped out the first kid ASAP, no parting for you guys. Instead of enjoying each other as a couple you went right to the parenthood.


She had some very bad relationships before me. I treated her good and honestly she treated me good too. One of those “I don’t want to date anyone else for a long time” scenarios on both ends and we kind of bumped into each other and was a person that I was “at peace” more than anyone else for a long while. 
I do think we were quick with the kids and house and stuff but we were both ready for that at the time. 
If I only knew how much energy raising kids actually took! Ha


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

jlg07 said:


> BTW, did you ever tell the spouse of the OTHER woman who cheated that she did?


I don’t know her husband. Thankfully. That is something she will have to attend to in her own way.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Galabar01 said:


> He was referring to “Excuse me, I am talking to MY son right now” as being a Freudian slip, with the wife telling you that the kids are _only_ her's genetically (i.e. not yours).


Thank you for the clarification. 
I took it as MY kid as in this is my moment to communicate with him. Honestly never dawned on me at the angle you are referring to. Well, just have to keep that in perspective as well. :/


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Diana7 said:


> What sort of work trip involves going to Vegas and a strip club?


A lot in my business. Can’t think of a single Vegas work trip where people didn’t go out to a strip club and many non-Vegas ones with strip clubs, and that’s not even counting the Europe Amsterdam detour business trips.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

RMguy said:


> *She had some very bad relationships before me.* I treated her good and honestly she treated me good too. One of those “I don’t want to date anyone else for a long time” scenarios on both ends and we kind of bumped into each other and was a person that I was “at peace” more than anyone else for a long while.
> I do think we were quick with the kids and house and stuff but we were both ready for that at the time.
> If I only knew how much energy raising kids actually took! Ha





RMguy said:


> Thanks for the response. *Seems like the theme here is the boundaries and limits in the relationship was not totally solid. Even if it were and she crossed the line*, I should have reacted in a different way.
> The theme also follow the path of me not acting on it (either before or after) as well. *Before I bring up couples therapy, I am wondering if I need to go myself just for sake of retroactive jealousy and maybe even esteem.* One of the major reasons I am here asking for advice is I really do not have anyone else to turn to. Obviously can’t go to my wife for advice. Haha


Some more advice. She obviously had some disturbing issues for you prior to marriage. Yes, you should have set very firm boundaries as a condition of marriage, so you both understood each other. Also your boundaries should have been established with your post-Vegas marriage counseling, but there weren't.

You have asked about some individual counseling. That may or may not be appropriate depending on what you want to do and if it would have added benefits over marriage counseling. From my perspective, even if you ultimately divorce her without trying marriage counseling, I think you need to get yourself emotionally healed from what happened. If you don't grieve the failed marriage or don't reconcile, you need to figure out what went wrong and what you could have done differently. If you don't you stand the risk of doing it all over again. 

Many people on the rebound are attracted to the exact same kind of personality that attracted them in the first place and then they do the same stupid things that destroy the marriage all over again. That is why there are so many 4th and 5th marriages. You need to change yourself so your next relationship has a better chance.............or you need to fix this relationship.

Good luck.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Evinrude58 said:


> No woman that is honest goes on a with trip to Vegas, then goes to a strip club with other men. It’s always the OTHER married women getting plowed by the coworkers…. Not muffin! She was just there being a good girl…….in a strip joint….. with other male coworkers……..while married………. Off in another city……..
> Dude, this sounds like a double date to me.
> 
> You have some weird stuff going on in your head. Probably because you’ve accepted some weird behavior from your wife and your subconscious is having a field day.
> ...


Ok ok. I get it. 
1. If she really had our marriage at heart then she wouldn’t have even gotten to the point where she was going to a strip club without me. Let alone with other guys. 
2. If I hadn’t intervened into the situation how much more further could have it gone. 
3. I could be kidding myself if I think it didn’t go further.
I am not saying it’s not possible, it just hard for me to accept the possibility. Only because she has been very loyal otherwise and this is one incident (that I know of). She has had to deal with my RJ issue, had a couple kids and has been super loyal (again as far as I know) up to this point . So for those reasons, that why I say it’s hard to believe my muffin would do such a thing. 
BUT I totally get your point you are making and have to consider all possibilities so only one person would be lying to me and I don’t join that party as well. 
Unfortunately, I do have some weird stuff going on in my head and trying to get it all sorted.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> Some more advice. She obviously had some disturbing issues for you prior to marriage. Yes, you should have set very firm boundaries as a condition of marriage, so you both understood each other. Also your boundaries should have been established with your post-Vegas marriage counseling, but there weren't.
> 
> You have asked about some individual counseling. That may or may not be appropriate depending on what you want to do and if it would have added benefits over marriage counseling. From my perspective, even if you ultimately divorce her without trying marriage counseling, I think you need to get yourself emotionally healed from what happened. If you don't grieve the failed marriage or don't reconcile, you need to figure out what went wrong and what you could have done differently. If you don't you stand the risk of doing it all over again.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response. 
Boundaries before hand seemed like playing a “what if” game that I honestly don’t see a lot of people playing. It’s hard for me to understand that people actually set ground rules up for the relationship before incidents happen. I guess relationships almost come with a set of “unwritten rules” that everyone sort of abides by. And then, once a line is crossed, then the boundary is set. The hope is that the other person doesn’t cross the line so much, there is no use of continuing that relationship. 
In my case, that line was crossed. But I (and the marriage counselor) failed to set that boundary back up. If the relationship continues, that will most definitely have to be established.
My question is if a boundary is attempted to be set but rejected, should that be grounds for braking it off? For example, if I were to say in this case, “no more drinking alcohol on works trips”. If she rejects that notion, is it an auto DQ and game over? 
I know it might be case by case scenario but I am really struggling on how to attend to the issue and not be too passive. Which I guess I have a problem being.

For the individual therapy. My thought is I really can’t help others unless I help myself first. I don’t think I can be my best when I have my own struggles. I should be at that level in order to have a good marriage. 
Saying that, I would not be against marriage counseling (again) but I don’t have much faith in it considering the last go round. But not against it. I really don’t want to go through all of this again with another person just to have the same outcome.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

RMguy said:


> Thanks for the response.
> Boundaries before hand seemed like playing a “what if” game that I honestly don’t see a lot of people playing. It’s hard for me to understand that people actually set ground rules up for the relationship before incidents happen. I guess relationships almost come with a set of “unwritten rules” that everyone sort of abides by. And then, once a line is crossed, then the boundary is set. The hope is that the other person doesn’t cross the line so much, there is no use of continuing that relationship.
> In my case, that line was crossed. But I (and the marriage counselor) failed to set that boundary back up. If the relationship continues, that will most definitely have to be established.
> My question is if a boundary is attempted to be set but rejected, should that be grounds for braking it off? For example, if I were to say in this case, “no more drinking alcohol on works trips”. If she rejects that notion, is it an auto DQ and game over?
> ...


A boundary is a boundary. If it isn't accepted from the start then the boundary has already been crossed. However, it could be that it is an unrealistic or unreasonable boundary. I would say that telling her that she can't have alcohol on work trips is unreasonable. That is far too controlling. You are telling her she can't even have a beer or glass of wine at dinner with colleagues. That is not reasonable. Now, telling her she shouldn't be going out to clubs and partying with people of the opposite sex while on work trips, or anytime for that matter, seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Honestly, it sounds like she already got that message during the Vegas trip. I know others will disagree and say she cheated, but the fact that she came home 2 days early tells me she didn't cheat and cared enough about the marriage to get out of the situation. At the same time it also says she knows she got way too close to going over the cliff and destroying her marriage and family. Hopefully a lesson was learned there. 

At this point in time does your wife know how big a deal all of this is for you and that it is bad enough in your mind that you are actually considering separating? Other than the mountain story, which is totally your issue, not hers, it sounds like all of the issues are from months or years ago. If she is generally unaware of how you feel and all these are relatively old issues, you will need to be careful how you bring all this up. Otherwise I fear you are in for a big argument that could be very counter productive.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

BTW, even though I've never had boundary issues with my wife because we seem to just naturally be on the same page, we have talked about them. We never sat down early in our relationship to specifically talk about boundaries. This discussion happens somewhat organically. Maybe while watching a TV show the actors are doing something that crosses one of your boundaries. That is a great opportunity to bring it up without it seeming to come out of the blue. More recently I've even used this site as a discussion starter, about boundaries and other marriage topics. I'll mention a thread and kick that off into a discussion. I may ask her directly how she would respond to a situation brought up here. I just want to throw out some tips on how to start these conversations based on what has worked with me and my wife.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

RMguy said:


> *My question is if a boundary is attempted to be set but rejected, should that be grounds for braking it off?* For example, if I were to say in this case, “no more drinking alcohol on works trips”. If she rejects that notion, is it an auto DQ and game over?
> I know it might be case by case scenario but I am really struggling on how to attend to the issue and not be too passive. Which I guess I have a problem being.


Yes. 
You decide what you will, and will not accept in your marriage. Your wife will choose to accept your boundaries or she won’t.
If she refuses, she’s basically telling you that whatever behaviors you deem unacceptable are more important to her than you are. That’s a bad situation that you should not tolerate.

You’ll get the behavior that you tolerate, and most women (and probably men) will behave as badly as you let them.

If she actually respects and values you, she will agree to your boundaries (assuming they’re not completely insane). 
Now, she may argue or try to negotiate (especially if she’s not convinced that you’re serious and will follow through), but if you hold firm and steadfast most women will agree if they actually want to keep you.

Passive men tend to get walked on, disrespected, mistreated and ultimately discarded by women. Don’t be passive in your marriage. You need to set the tone and expectations for your marriage. You need to be purposefully leading your marriage and family.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

BigDaddyNY said:


> A boundary is a boundary. If it isn't accepted from the start then the boundary has already been crossed. However, it could be that it is an unrealistic or unreasonable boundary. I would say that telling her that she can't have alcohol on work trips is unreasonable. That is far too controlling. You are telling her she can't even have a beer or glass of wine at dinner with colleagues. That is not reasonable. Now, telling her she shouldn't be going out to clubs and partying with people of the opposite sex while on work trips, or anytime for that matter, seems perfectly reasonable to me.
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like she already got that message during the Vegas trip. I know others will disagree and say she cheated, but the fact that she came home 2 days early tells me she didn't cheat and cared enough about the marriage to get out of the situation. At the same time it also says she knows she got way too close to going over the cliff and destroying her marriage and family. Hopefully a lesson was learned there.
> 
> At this point in time does your wife know how big a deal all of this is for you and that it is bad enough in your mind that you are actually considering separating? Other than the mountain story, which is totally your issue, not hers, it sounds like all of the issues are from months or years ago. If she is generally unaware of how you feel and all these are relatively old issues, you will need to be careful how you bring all this up. Otherwise I fear you are in for a big argument that could be very counter productive.



@RMguy : I'm in agreement with @BigDaddyNY here. With the exception of the Vegas trip, I think that so far what I read from you indicates that is all in your head. So, to reiterate: tread carefully with what's in your head (the past), and what you say to your wife. You might be already creating the divide that might lead to your marriage demise.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

RMguy said:


> Thanks for the response.
> Boundaries before hand seemed like playing a “what if” game that I honestly don’t see a lot of people playing. It’s hard for me to understand that people actually set ground rules up for the relationship before incidents happen. I guess relationships almost come with a set of “unwritten rules” that everyone sort of abides by. And then, once a line is crossed, then the boundary is set. The hope is that the other person doesn’t cross the line so much, there is no use of continuing that relationship.
> In my case, that line was crossed. But I (and the marriage counselor) failed to set that boundary back up. If the relationship continues, that will most definitely have to be established.
> My question is if a boundary is attempted to be set but rejected, should that be grounds for braking it off? For example, if I were to say in this case, “no more drinking alcohol on works trips”. If she rejects that notion, is it an auto DQ and game over?
> ...


Before I married my wife, we had a long discussion on sex. I explained how important BJ's and oral sex was to me. She told me that it was too intimate prior to marriage, but afterward her love for me would grow and she would please me orally. It has never happened. During sex therapy marriage counseling sessions to try to rebuild our marriage (which worked) she had to explain that she honestly believed what she told me. She just couldn't overcome her Catholic aversion to certain sex acts. So, to respond to your point, even if you do try to set boundaries prior to marriage, and you have a meeting of the minds, the boundaries may not be set.

If you don't feel like trying marriage counseling one more time, that is your choice. My hope for you was that you might learn enough about yourself and what you need to do differently, that a reconciliation might have a chance of working.

I promised myself prior to my wife and I going to the Sex Therapist that I was going to be in a loving sexual relationship by a certain milestone birthday. While I would have preferred it to be with my wife, if she could not provide me that, I would divorce her. That was my mindset. I aslo wanted to change myself so I could be a better husband/partner. I made massive changes to myself. She saw that. The Sex Therapist helped her see what the situation really was, point out what would happen if my wife didn't change and that the New me would have no problem finding a sexual partner who would want me. So the choice given to my wife was sit back and be responsible for the divorce and live with the consequences or change the way your treat your husband. The ST did a great job of setting the perspective and making my wife focus on the reality (her reality).

My wife ultimately choose marriage. Again, you get to choose what you want for your life. Good luck.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> A boundary is a boundary. If it isn't accepted from the start then the boundary has already been crossed. However, it could be that it is an unrealistic or unreasonable boundary. I would say that telling her that she can't have alcohol on work trips is unreasonable. That is far too controlling. You are telling her she can't even have a beer or glass of wine at dinner with colleagues. That is not reasonable. Now, telling her she shouldn't be going out to clubs and partying with people of the opposite sex while on work trips, or anytime for that matter, seems perfectly reasonable to me.
> 
> Honestly, it sounds like she already got that message during the Vegas trip. I know others will disagree and say she cheated, but the fact that she came home 2 days early tells me she didn't cheat and cared enough about the marriage to get out of the situation. At the same time it also says she knows she got way too close to going over the cliff and destroying her marriage and family. Hopefully a lesson was learned there.
> 
> At this point in time does your wife know how big a deal all of this is for you and that it is bad enough in your mind that you are actually considering separating? Other than the mountain story, which is totally your issue, not hers, it sounds like all of the issues are from months or years ago. If she is generally unaware of how you feel and all these are relatively old issues, you will need to be careful how you bring all this up. Otherwise I fear you are in for a big argument that could be very counter productive.


I can understand the complexities of boundaries and that’s what I am curious as to how they come about and how people “negotiate” them. Thank you for the feedback on my particular suggestions. The “no drinking on work trips” one was to really nips the situation as a whole from happening again. The whole adage of “fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me” comes to mind. However, I would much rather live in a place where a mechanism of control is not needed but this is life and it just sucks at times. So these boundaries need to be placed/understood.

About Vegas. That’s is my thought as well BUT I don’t want to be blind either and the others do have a point. If this were someone else’s story I was reading, I probably would think she possibly could have done something that night still. However, she did come home the next day. Also, When I talked to her on the phone that next day, she really sounded like she couldn’t even breathe because she was thinking I was going to leave her. Very distraught sounding. Also after we talked about it, I told her that I don’t want her to talk to any of the people she went out with again. She agreed. She felt like I was being controlling but agreed. So I do give her some points for that.

She doesn’t know how big of a deal it for me. I don’t want to go down that road until I am certain I am at a point where I might be able to turn back. Undoubtedly, I have issues processing what is kosher or not and again, why I am here. I did tell her that I will be going to talk to a therapist and it might evolve to marriage counseling (since we have not been totally close lately as I distanced myself in the recent past thinking of these topics). She said she would be open to that.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

BigDaddyNY said:


> BTW, even though I've never had boundary issues with my wife because we seem to just naturally be on the same page, we have talked about them. We never sat down early in our relationship to specifically talk about boundaries. This discussion happens somewhat organically. Maybe while watching a TV show the actors are doing something that crosses one of your boundaries. That is a great opportunity to bring it up without it seeming to come out of the blue. More recently I've even used this site as a discussion starter, about boundaries and other marriage topics. I'll mention a thread and kick that off into a discussion. I may ask her directly how she would respond to a situation brought up here. I just want to throw out some tips on how to start these conversations based on what has worked with me and my wife.


These are good points and using the example via TV is a good tactic to address them. Thanks for mentioning it.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

DudeInProgress said:


> Yes.
> You decide what you will, and will not accept in your marriage. Your wife will choose to accept your boundaries or she won’t.
> If she refuses, she’s basically telling you that whatever behaviors you deem unacceptable are more important to her than you are. That’s a bad situation that you should not tolerate.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice. Nice guys always finish last huh?
But what you say does make sense. I push back when I need to. Especially when she tries to tell me how to drive. Lol Just because I have gone through a lot of crap in life and some things just don’t seem to matter. Well, there still needs to be a balance. 
But in this case, you are correct, I am being too passive.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Rob_1 said:


> @RMguy : I'm in agreement with @BigDaddyNY here. With the exception of the Vegas trip, I think that so far what I read from you indicates that is all in your head. So, to reiterate: tread carefully with what's in your head (the past), and what you say to your wife. You might be already creating the divide that might lead to your marriage demise.


Thank you for the feedback. It’s not to that point yet, as far as I can tell. However, I need to fine that fine line to progress forward without bringing up troublesome issues and making it worse.


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## RMguy (Jul 2, 2021)

Young at Heart said:


> Before I married my wife, we had a long discussion on sex. I explained how important BJ's and oral sex was to me. She told me that it was too intimate prior to marriage, but afterward her love for me would grow and she would please me orally. It has never happened. During sex therapy marriage counseling sessions to try to rebuild our marriage (which worked) she had to explain that she honestly believed what she told me. She just couldn't overcome her Catholic aversion to certain sex acts. So, to respond to your point, even if you do try to set boundaries prior to marriage, and you have a meeting of the minds, the boundaries may not be set.
> 
> If you don't feel like trying marriage counseling one more time, that is your choice. My hope for you was that you might learn enough about yourself and what you need to do differently, that a reconciliation might have a chance of working.
> 
> ...


I am in this mindset now. Going to talk to individual and marriage therapist. We have been married for over 10 years. That’s a long time. It won’t hurt to spend a few months trying to find a path forward together. If for some reason, that doesn’t work out. Then at the very least I have a better mindset for myself in the future. 
i just don’t want to make a rash mistake that could affect not only the 10 years together and the lives of our 2 kids.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

RMguy said:


> I am in this mindset now. Going to talk to individual and marriage therapist. We have been married for over 10 years. That’s a long time. It won’t hurt to spend a few months trying to find a path forward together. If for some reason, that doesn’t work out. Then at the very least I have a better mindset for myself in the future.
> i just don’t want to make a rash mistake that could affect not only the 10 years together and the lives of our 2 kids.


At the time, my wife and I have been married for about 38 years. We have now been married for over 50 years.

I worked toward resolution partially as my oldest son was about to get married and I didn't want to cast a shadow on his wedding. Mostly, I just wanted to figure out what went wrong, so if we stayed together (and that would be up to how my wife treated me) there would be boundaries on my wife's behaviors and I would know how to better act. If she choose not to stay married, it would all be her decision and her living with the consequences.

It is nice to be able to see our grandchildren and spend quality time with them.

Good luck to you.


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