# Do people really lack Moral and Ethical Values



## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

Do some people really lack understanding of Moral and Ethical Values?? I was very much surprised when my WS told me that she has very less knowledge about moral and ethical values. 

And for me the more surprise is that she was chatting all "I love u" with the OM but when I started doing 180, she was telling the same OM that "She can't even consider me as her husband", so if I was her husband who was OM?? 

She was even searching in google whether one can have a boyfriend in marriage??

Something is wrong with the cheaters ?? What is that??


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Affairs are an addiction. It impairs your thinking. There is much rationalization. Just thinking you have good character is not always enough.

This is also why doing His Needs Her Needs and setting boundaries is so critical. Peope assume too much. They assume that the person they love has the same moral values they do. Not always at all. Also the boundaries can slide.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

She's trying to justify her behaviour by googling that. When people are in cheating mode, all morals they used to have are gone.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

Op to your thread title question. Yes, I believe that some do. Unfortunately however there are those lacking as well. It depends on the person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

somethingelse said:


> She's trying to justify her behaviour by googling that. When people are in cheating mode, all morals they used to have are gone.


Even though I agree that she is justifying by searching in google but I honestly think my WS doesn't know that her husband is her boyfriend/lover/husband. My WS has toxic friends and all these toxic friends have a boyfriend/lover on side. 

I think my WS got carried away by these toxic friends. 

Just want to make it clear, I'm not in a BS fog. I just want to understand whether it is possible for an individual not to have knowledge about moral and ethical values !!!


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## inarut (Feb 9, 2013)

In a nutshell....yes, some people really lack moral and ethical values. It happens when you put yourself first without regard to how your actions and words negatively effect others. It gets rationalized some way or another. People can change with time but I think a person should have a good idea of their SO's moral and ethical values well before marriage. Unfortunately, sometimes we choose not to really acknowledge these things before hand. Call it a lesson learned...the hard way....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Some people, yes. Some people don't know any better, some people know what's wrong and don't care, some people are out for themselves, some people are flawed, and some people are strong. Every relationship has 2 different people, each affair involves even more people and moving pieces, and it's complicated. Every person is different and every situation is different.

My WS thought she could have me and her boyfriend as well. She told me she felt she could hold it all together, basically to have her cake and eat it too. 

I know she is usually a moral person, I know she knew it was wrong, and I know she feels terrible that she is now a cheater, and it's even worse that she did these things with another married man who now has a betrayed spouse of his own because of her.

I think she just had suspended her morals. Once she was deep into the fantasy and feeling entitled to what she was doing, that became her reality, and everything she did inwardly and outwardly was done to try to maintain the fantasy world she had created. Everything could be justified in some way, in her mind, though there was no legitimate justification for what she was doing. 

When the fantasy was shattered - then and only then did she snap out of everything and "find" her lost morals. Then and only then could we truly begin to assess the damage and pick up the pieces. To do this I didn't just pull a 180... I felt it and still feel it. I had to be at my breaking point, at the cusp of kicking her out of my life and forsaking her forever, having told all relevant parties in our circle of family/friends, before she no longer saw her relationship with the OM as something that had value. The only thing that was "real" was the pain and damage that was caused by their selfish actions.


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## stevehowefan (Apr 3, 2013)

I personally don't judge anyone for anything the do, not say anyone here is judging, but I can't get inside the mind of a cheater. I've probably been directly approached to cheat on my wife about 20 times in nine years, and I've been indirectly approached more than that. I'm definitely not the magnetic north of moral compasses, but I refuse to run around on my wife. I've seen it destroy families. Worse than drugs or alcohol ever could. I have many family members and friends who've stepped out. I think another question is: when people who have morals cheat, do they "lose" those morals? Is it possible to be henceforth amoral after an affair?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

look at the world and ask yourself if people lack moral/ethical values.

it appears to me that many people lack morals.

you just don't think the one you married would be lacking but I would bet if you look back at her actions through out the years there were tell tale signs that were there.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

John2012 said:


> Even though I agree that she is justifying by searching in google but I honestly think my WS doesn't know that her husband is her boyfriend/lover/husband. My WS has toxic friends and all these toxic friends have a boyfriend/lover on side.
> 
> I think my WS got carried away by these toxic friends.
> 
> Just want to make it clear, I'm not in a BS fog. I just want to understand whether it is possible for an individual not to have knowledge about moral and ethical values !!!


It is possible for some people to think that the most obscene things are ok to do. Morals and ethical values need to be learned for the most part. 

These toxic friends of hers need to go, pronto if your W is going to stand a chance


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

And not just when it comes to marriage.
I've seen social worker managers and health and welfare administrators put human life over their salaries and jobs.

And just recently had to deal with someone submitting a report knowing that the entire project was bogus in everything but intent and some applied technology.

It is what it is. I feel fortunate that I have so many 'valid' people in my life. I know who they are and they get top billing, my decisions rely on the framework provided by their participation in work, social life, etc. 

The unethical and amoral are to be noted, and worked around.

Sex on the side in a marriage when that is not the agreement is just one manifestation...there are many more. People justify by saying that others do it, so it must be normal, and then look around for the 'excuses' that apply to them.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> but I would bet if you look back at her actions through out the years there were tell tale signs that were there.


I agree with this. Way back many years ago, she entered into a chat room and started having long distance email exchanges. Within no time started "I love u" session. At that time, I was upset and there was no consequence for her action. I thought she learned her lesson but I was wrong. 

The fact that this time she went too far by having a secret email ids, deleting the contents shows that how far she got "trained" in deceiving.

She used to enjoy the company of her toxic friends, which makes it clear what was going on in her mind.

Yet she claimed she is naive regarding ethical and moral values !!! To difficult to understand.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

John2012 said:


> Do some people really lack understanding of Moral and Ethical Values??
> 
> Something is wrong with the cheaters ?? What is that??


John, do you really need to ask your first question? Just watch the evening news if you need help with that one.

As for there being something wrong with cheaters ... I guess that one is a matter of perspective. Of the married cheaters I know, selfishness is the most common trait among them. On the other hand if you are single and cheating with someone who is "spoken for", well then at the very least you're lacking in the empathy department ... but you're not necessarily the "monster predator" BSs tend to paint you as.


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## John2012 (Sep 18, 2012)

ironman said:


> John, do you really need to ask your first question? Just watch the evening news if you need help with that one.
> 
> As for there being something wrong with cheaters ... I guess that one is a matter of perspective. Of the married cheaters I know, selfishness is the most common trait among them. On the other hand if you are single and cheating with someone who is "spoken for", well then at the very least you're lacking in the empathy department ... but you're not necessarily the "monster predator" BSs tend to paint you as.


My first question was mainly concern with the infidelity especially among married couples. In my WS case, the OM is married with kids and my WS is with kids. Yet she says she doesn't have understanding of moral and ethical values. She never thought what she was doing will hurt so many people !!!


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

John2012 said:


> My first question was mainly concern with the infidelity especially among married couples. In my WS case, the OM is married with kids and my WS is with kids. Yet she says she doesn't have understanding of moral and ethical values. She never thought what she was doing will hurt so many people !!!


Well, I personally have a long, sordid history with cheaters. I learned very young that they are EVERYWHERE! So the answer to your question is YES .. many, many people lack morals/ethics and/or are oblivious to them .. end result is the same.


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

The answer to your question is..........................Wait for it!...................................................................................................................YES!


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## javawave (Apr 7, 2013)

somethingelse said:


> She's trying to justify her behaviour by googling that. When people are in cheating mode, all morals they used to have are gone.


Exactly. No rationalization, no morals, just trying to justify their own actions in their own mind. its gets crazy.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

chillymorn said:


> look at the world and ask yourself if people lack moral/ethical values.
> 
> it appears to me that many people lack morals.
> 
> you just don't think the one you married would be lacking but *I would bet if you look back at her actions through out the years there were tell tale signs that were there*.



I wish I could hit the 'like' button about 10 times for THIS^^^!

I know that my exb/f had cheated on his wife while she was at home literally DYING of cancer. His excuse was, that they hadn't had sex in about 5 years. He had the opportunity. I forgave him for that.

What I should have done was to put that 'confession' together with other things in the relationship, such as his lying to me...his condescending...occasional angry outbursts...passive-aggressiveness, to name a few. By his own admission, he gets "stressed out EASILY", which tells me that he turns a paper cut into a heart attack. Normal every day stressors, such as having to delay making a phone call for 10 minutes, wouldn't bother MOST people. But to exb/f, he'd have to take 2 hour NAP because of something like that! 

Is it any wonder WHY he cheated? Not in MY eyes!

Vega


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I keep looking for someone else who is perfect, but so far I seem to be the only one 

To me it is about understanding the limits of morality. My limits and other people's.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

John2012 said:


> Do some people really lack understanding of Moral and Ethical Values?? I was very much surprised when my WS told me that she has very less knowledge about moral and ethical values.
> 
> And for me the more surprise is that she was chatting all "I love u" with the OM but when I started doing 180, she was telling the same OM that "She can't even consider me as her husband", so if I was her husband who was OM??
> 
> ...


what was she like during your courtship? I was dating a guy who, when he was caught redhanded, would then play crazy....ie I didn't know that there was something wrong with doing/ saying that. When I had had enough of that and told him to get out of my life, he tried it again "I didn't what I had said was so bad" to which I replied "If you don't understand how seriously offensive what you said to me is, then it's all the more reason that we shouldn't see each other."

John, during your courtship, did you find quite often that she played crazy so as a to deflect responsibility, possibly on lesser issues.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I've done things in my life that I know lacked morals and eithics. It took a life-changing set of events to whack my brain back into the way I was brought up to think and live. Today I see cheaters as the completely self-centered people they are (the list of adjectives is long...), and I refuse to live that way. So.... people may know they are being unethical/amoral, and do it anyway. But they can also learn that that behavior is completely destructive not only to their own lives (even a cheater can have his heart hurt) but it spreads to so many others beyond the Betrayed, even. And that life change can happen, but I believe you have to have the framework in place at a young age if it's really going to take effect.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Ultimately it takes two to create a lie. One to tell it and a second one to believe it. Don't be that #2. Call them out and disengage.


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## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

John2012 said:


> Do some people really lack understanding of Moral and Ethical Values?? I was very much surprised when my WS told me that she has very less knowledge about moral and ethical values.
> 
> And for me the more surprise is that she was chatting all "I love u" with the OM but when I started doing 180, she was telling the same OM that "She can't even consider me as her husband", so if I was her husband who was OM??
> 
> ...


Is she not your xW yet?


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## ubercoolpanda (Sep 11, 2012)

John. 

My mother had an affair with her sisters husband. This was going on whilst her father was dying (and died) and also whilst her own sister (the wife) was pregnant with the husbands disabled child. 

Cheaters have no morals.

Edit: Oh, and my mum has zero remorse whatsoever. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

ubercoolpanda said:


> John.
> 
> My mother had an affair with her sisters husband. This was going on whilst her father was dying (and died) and also whilst her own sister (the wife) was pregnant with the husbands disabled child.
> 
> ...


23 years since my wife's affair. We are reconciled and happy but I never totally got over the pains her actions caused me.

And neither has she. She works so hard trying to make it up to me. Still.

You can't tar all cheaters with the same brush.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

John2012 said:


> Do some people really lack understanding of Moral and Ethical Values?? I was very much surprised when my WS told me that she has very less knowledge about moral and ethical values.
> 
> And for me the more surprise is that she was chatting all "I love u" with the OM but when I started doing 180, she was telling the same OM that "She can't even consider me as her husband", so if I was her husband who was OM??
> 
> ...


Just proves how fluid morals & ethics can be. We pick them up and discard them at will. We lie when we say how moral & ethical we are.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

everyone has a voice in them that says "This is wrong...This is right". For some people that voice is minnie mouse and other people have Andrea Boccelli...BUT the voice is there. 

Many people CHOOSE to have "fun" versus listening to the voice. It's simply called being selfish. But for her to say "I'm not knowledgeable about morals"...BULL CRAP! So she's saying she didn't KNOW it was wrong to cheat? Seriously. Maybe you didn't realize it was wrong to smack her upside her empty head. Maybe you didn't realize it was wrong to go shopping with her at the mall, walk away and drive home to catch the game leaving her stranded. SERIOUSLY?!?! 

The googling is because SHE KNOWS IT'S WRONG but she's trying to convince herself it's not. It's the old "if all your friends jumped off the bridge, would you?" scenario but with people ACTUALLY convincing themselves it's okay to jump.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

John2012 said:


> Even though I agree that she is justifying by searching in google but I honestly think my WS doesn't know that her husband is her boyfriend/lover/husband. My WS has toxic friends and all these toxic friends have a boyfriend/lover on side.
> 
> I think my WS got carried away by these toxic friends.
> 
> Just want to make it clear, I'm not in a BS fog. I just want to understand whether it is possible for an individual not to have knowledge about moral and ethical values !!!


Here is your biggest problem, toxic friends. How is it their husbands do not kn ow they are cheating. If you run with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

Is your wife cheating? How is it you know about hese women and your wife hangs out with them instead of you?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

John2012 said:


> My first question was mainly concern with the infidelity especially among married couples. In my WS case, the OM is married with kids and my WS is with kids. Yet she says she doesn't have understanding of moral and ethical values. She never thought what she was doing will hurt so many people !!!


More likely she simply can't handle the responsibility for the damage she has done.

Many very moral people have affairs. Their desire overcomes their common sense. I think what is common though, is they convince themselves they won't get caught and no one will get hurt, enven themselves.

We are wired to be attracted to other people. Monogomous animals, birds etc., it has been found,that both sexes cheat on their mates constantly. LOL I assume they think their partner is none the wiser.

About 75% of men and women claim they would have an affair if they knew for sure they would not get caught. Its the consequences they fear, not a lack of desire. Studies claim 80% of affairs are never detected.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

John2012 said:


> Even though I agree that she is justifying by searching in google but I honestly think my WS doesn't know that her husband is her boyfriend/lover/husband. My WS has toxic friends and all these toxic friends have a boyfriend/lover on side.
> 
> I think my WS got carried away by these toxic friends.
> 
> Just want to make it clear, I'm not in a BS fog. I just want to understand whether it is possible for an individual not to have knowledge about moral and ethical values !!!


This shows her lack of values. Her choice in friends. Her friends did not cause her lack of values. They validated her lack of values. Yes they are toxic. But she chose them.


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

John2012 said:


> Do some people really lack understanding of Moral and Ethical Values??
> 
> ...
> 
> Something is wrong with the cheaters ?? What is that??


I think that depends on whether you think your definition of morals and ethical values are the absolute definitions.

These two terms are set by our communities, be they based on religious or secular value systems. Different communities view them in vastly different ways. In some communities it is perfectly reasonable, if not expected, to conduct extra-marital relationships.

I think you are surprised at the difference in your wife's morals and ethics in the context that you have known them in her until this event. Have you explained this to her? Has she always been genuinely aligned with your beliefs?

Short of her views radically changing because of hormones or other medically related reasons, I think she is in a fog and needs to understand that she has veered off course.

Good luck.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There are plenty of people with very flexible moral and ethical values & these are the ones who find it easy to justify bending the rules to gratify themselves.

I have also known some people in my life who just seem to have grown to adulthood looking at the rules of engagement in society, but making 'unusual' conclusions about them. These are perfectly respectable, nice, kind-hearted people whom I wouldn't consider selfish, but who nonetheless have a moral compass that is 'off.'

For example, my son had a true WTH moment with the sweet, book-smart gf of one of his closest friends. He had always described her as 'naive.' His friend had worked overtime to buy himself a plane ticket to visit this sweet girl in her home state. After the romantic weekend, she called her bf to let him know that she had just slept with another guy. When her bf went ballistic and broke up with her, she was 'confused.' She explained to my son that she had always only done threesomes and didn't know her bf would get upset. Why was he upset? she wanted to know. He should have told her that he was sensitive to that, etc., etc. My son said he thought his head would start spinning around. He called me sputtering, wanting to know if he was crazy.

So, here was this perfectly ordinary-seeming young woman who had no real understanding of this aspect of morality. She seemed to learn it by dispassionately observing. Once she knew that her bf would get 'mad' about her sleeping with another man, well, then she could start to follow that dictate.

I've actually known a few people with this sort of personality.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> So she's saying she didn't KNOW it was wrong to cheat? Seriously. Maybe you didn't realize it was wrong to smack her upside her empty head.
> .


LOL!! My ex gave me the "It Just Happened" line. I can't tell you how many times I wanted to beat the ever livin' CRAP out of both of them, and while they're on the ground in agony, very calmly saying, "It Just Happened". 

Vega


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> There are plenty of people with very flexible moral and ethical values & these are the ones who find it easy to justify bending the rules to gratify themselves.
> 
> I have also known some people in my life who just seem to have grown to adulthood looking at the rules of engagement in society, but making 'unusual' conclusions about them. These are perfectly respectable, nice, kind-hearted people whom I wouldn't consider selfish, *but who nonetheless have a moral compass that is 'off.'*
> 
> ...


May I ask if you can think of anyone who would think that your moral compass is off?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here ... really, I'm not. I just consider conversations about ethics and morals to be so subjective and therefore judgmental.

For example, by the Puritan code, would your behavior be deemed unethical or immoral? How about in a different faith? If you eat meat, or God forbid Foie Gras; to a vegetarian, would your behavior be deemed immoral, or amoral?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

PastOM said:


> May I ask if you can think of anyone who would think that your moral compass is off?
> 
> I'm not trying to be argumentative here ... really, I'm not. I just consider conversations about ethics and morals to be so subjective and therefore judgmental.
> 
> For example, by the Puritan code, would your behavior be deemed unethical or immoral? How about in a different faith? If you eat meat, or God forbid Foie Gras; to a vegetarian, would your behavior be deemed immoral, or amoral?


I think that human beings have a universal set of rules of engagement. If we look across cultures, we see broad agreement on basic principles - don't murder, don't lie, don't steal, etc. And then there are cultural ethics and morals that differ based on societal group, time, place, etc. And then there are ethics and morals that are defined by much smaller groups, like the family.

So, this is all definitely relative, even on the basic level, because our fundamental human sense of rules will be different from the patterns of other species in many cases. When I say that someone's moral compass is off, this is, of course, defined in relative terms. I think it has to be. That doesn't make it any less true. It is 'off' in relation to some specified standard. Does the standard have provable absolute value? Again, a philosophical question.


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## PastOM (Apr 12, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> I think that human beings have a universal set of rules of engagement. If we look across cultures, we see broad agreement on basic principles - don't murder, don't lie, don't steal, etc. And then there are cultural ethics and morals that differ based on societal group, time, place, etc. And then there are ethics and morals that are defined by much smaller groups, like the family.
> 
> So, this is all definitely relative, even on the basic level, because our fundamental human sense of rules will be different from the patterns of other species in many cases. When I say that someone's moral compass is off, this is, of course, defined in relative terms. I think it has to be. That doesn't make it any less true. It is 'off' in relation to some specified standard. Does the standard have provable absolute value? Again, a philosophical question.


Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am in absolute agreement with you.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

PastOM said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am in absolute agreement with you.


My pleasure .

To answer the specific question about myself: I doubt that within my own culture I would be described as 'off' in terms of moral or ethical norms. Outside of my culture, I am definitely 'off,' but that judgment would probably have more to do with my violating particular cultural norms. I've lived in different countries, so I'm familiar with being 'the other,' but I'd have to think hard to decide whether the differences could be classified as moral or ethical.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

I think cheating, lying, and deceit, especially to those we profess to love, are pretty much universally considered to be wrong.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> I think cheating, lying, and deceit, especially to those we profess to love, are pretty much universally considered to be wrong.


There're still nowadays cultures where a man cheating on her wife, even having permanent mistresses is not only accepted but expected. Everybody knows, everybody knows it's never to be talked about. Discretion is a must.


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## cledus_snow (Feb 19, 2012)

yes, some people really do lack these values.

just reading through some of these threads confirms it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

John2012 said:


> Do some people really lack understanding of Moral and Ethical Values?? I was very much surprised when my WS told me that she has very less knowledge about moral and ethical values.
> 
> And for me the more surprise is that she was chatting all "I love u" with the OM but when I started doing 180, she was telling the same OM that "She can't even consider me as her husband", so if I was her husband who was OM??
> 
> ...


How old are you and how long have you been married? 

Did you discuss morals adn ethical values with her before you married her?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

In my very humble opinion, most people are as useless as mammaries on a boar because they operate using situational ethics. They can talk themselves into things they shouldn't do and they can just as easily talk themselves out of those things they should do. If you find someone with real ethics, they are to be treasured because they are rare.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

I'm not sure if blanket statements like loss of moral code is the correct term, but people remove boundaries and make poor choices much of the time.

Pick your vice gambling, alcoholism, drug addiction, affairs, ruthless business practices, lieing, tax evasion, abuse......throughout life I think few are truly blameless anymore. Life while very short seems long at times. I know few people who haven't made misteps throughout their marriage at some point.

A group of 6 of us were talking the other day. All married 15 years or longer. Every single guy (except me) had at least one affair. Some guys were in their late 50's some mid 30's. 

One guys story was "Yeah, I've crossed the tracks a few times, but those days are long gone. I don't even want to be with another woman anymore I'm lucky to have her".

Then again if my wife acted crazy like some stories I hear at work I might be looking too I don't know.

Either way, I think affairs are so common nowadays far more than any statistic would predicate.


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## ExisaWAW (Mar 5, 2013)

I wanted to share my views. Since this thread is in the CWI forum, I'll answer from the perspective of the LBS that was cheated on by their spouse. 

When ppl get married, they often go before God (if married in a church) their friends & family (if they had a wedding ceremony) and they commit to one another publicly by saying things like love, honor, cherish till death do us part. Give yourself only to each other & forsake all others. In good times and in bad, etc., etc. 

These aren't just words. It's a life-long commitment. Marriage vows are just that. A vow to the other person. You look into their eyes, you spent a huge amount of money on a dress, a wedding, a honeymoon, & you celebrate this union with your family & best friends. It's supposed to be one of the biggest, if not THE biggest commitment you make in your life. 

When someone decides to betray those commitments, they are morally corrupt. The ONLY reason God allows a man to divorce his wife is for adultery. Trust me, this is a huge sin. 

So, do ppl lack ethics & moral values? Yes, many do unfortunately. As a Christian, I am supposed to forgive as Christ forgives us. That's tough for me (and a lot of us LBSs here). I guess I can forgive but not be loving, there for her emotionally, etc., etc. Heck, I don't even want to see or communicate with her ever again. 

My goal in life is to teach my two small girls to honor their commitments whether it's their marriage vows or anything else where they've given their word.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PamJ (Mar 22, 2013)

Maybe some people do not have morals if they were not raised by example with them. My H was not one of these people. He was just able to compartmentalize what he was doing. He knew it was wrong on some level or he wouldn't have gone to such lengths to hide it to continue with it. 

As far as how it would affect me, he suppressed that in his mind and hoped for the best, that I would not find out. But really, how many of these affairs do not get found out sooner or later? It is a ticking time bomb of pain.


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