# Feel like I gave bad advice



## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

A while back my H's brother was having an affair. His wife after trying to deal with it on her own and not getting any result decided to involve my H and I. She then later told my MIL after they came for a visit and the OW's mother inadvertently told my MIL of the affair.

Now, as usual we got all the stuff my BIL was doing wrong. He was not coming home or coming home late. Spending time with the OW. Telling my SIL he wanted a D. He is not happy with her or the kids. He wants out. 

My BIL is a hardworking guy, owns a number of houses before he got married and never put the properties in his wives name. The own the family house with both of their names on the deed. He does not talk a lot. His wife is very strong willed and gets her way with everything. It's all about her and her family. We know this about her and just accept it as who she is.

Yesterday, I learned some background information and now I am regretting my involvement.

It seem that when they moved to FL my SIL got a job for the first time in her life. They have been married for about 30 years. Then, she started to party. Every weekend she had a party to go to. She went out every evening, drank a lot and came home whenever. They were constantly fighting about money. She wants every thing in her name. He is not providing enough for her. She screams and cuss at him in public, in front of family and friends. She puts him down.

She tells everyone her brother gives her money and her friend gives her money. There is a guy who is a family friend, who is always at their house. I have witness her asking him for money and things. And he will give it to her or buy what she ask him to.

I know what my BIL did was wrong, if he was so unhappy, he should have gotten a divorce. Not get involved with the woman he was complaining and venting to. I don't condone the affair or how he went about it.

But I regret pushing him to go back to his wife. My H feels bad now too. Because his brother in living in hell now. My SIL keeps calling us to ask us to tell him to put the houses in her name. The properties are worth quite a lot and are in my BIL's name and my MIL and some with an uncle. She wants it all because she said, if he leaves her the kids will not get anything. He will give everything to the new wife. 

The youngest boy is 18. None of the kids are doing anything. They are always starting community college and dropping out. Then, when the father gets mad, they will take a class. So, my BIL is disappointed with his kids.

I feel so bad, that without knowing the full story, I pushed and bullied my BIL back into a bad marriage. I was very vocal about it. Now he is back to the same old sh!t. She wants him to change and bring home more money. But she should stay the same.

I am going to see them this weekend. Should I apologize to him for getting involved in his business? I feel like I owe him an apology.

I should have minded my own business and stay out of their problems.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

Yes, tell him he is right to demand a divorce. Urge him to end the marriage. Reassure him you and your husband are behind him. Tell him if you knew all the facts you would still tell him the adultery was wrong, but he still needs to separate and work towards a divorce. 

My instinct would be the same as your's was. Now when I get there I would urge him, since his youngest is 18, to just pack a bag and get out. I would also print out @marduk post on DAVO


Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I would stand up to his wife and urge him to do the same. I would be blunt and say two wrongs do not make a right. My BIL was wrong for the adultery. It was a weakness on his part, the same weakness that caused him to allow you to treat him like a pos for years. 

While marriage requires a lot of sacrifices at times, and is many things it is not a suicide pack.


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## TeddieG (Sep 9, 2015)

Well, it is tempting to respond to someone whose life seems to be in crisis because of their spouse's cheating. Can you just say to your BIL, look, I feel so strongly about cheating that I weighed in without knowing the facts? And definitely stop taking the calls from SIL and very gently but assertively say, hey, we're not helping with this. 

The thing is, I know you're NOT saying this, but it sounds like from your post that the consensus is his options were to remain with the OW or go back to the family. He's back. He's not happy. He's not with OW anymore, but that doesn't mean he can't leave the SIL and divorce? If he's that miserable and she's that horrible, the issue seems to be the marriage now, not the cheating since it doesn't appear to be ongoing. Perhaps you and your H could support your brother in his choices to leave the marriage or set some boundaries or require counseling from his w if she wants to continue the marriage?

I guess I'm just saying, it is never too late to be supportive and encouraging in helping someone solve a problem, and the choice to return to the marriage was HIS. If he regrets it, you can still support and encourage him, without violating your standards about cheating. He can leave the situation without cheating. . . .

You spoke your truth about how you felt about cheating. Now you can speak your truth about the situation as you now know it is, in an apology if you feel that's called for, or an explanation. I would be willing to bet that if you explain to your BIL that you and your h now know quite a bit more about the situation, and you would both be in support of any decision he makes, including leaving the marriage (short of cheating, perhaps), that might open the door for him to be able to confide in you and your h (if that's what you want). If you want to extricate entirely, that makes sense too, but I think you'll feel better if you tell your BIL you didn't have the whole story and you're sorry you took sides. 

Hang in there, you are a nice person who got manipulated, it seems to me.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I wouldn't beat yourself up over it too much, because more often than not, it is a good idea to tell someone to work on their marriage. 

In this case, a simple "knowing what I know now BIL, I wouldn't have recommended that you get back with your W" would probably suffice.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Ann, 

There are always two sides to every story. Anyone can understand your regrets about the situation. If I jumped into the situation headstrong without all the information I would apology to BIL. Temper those regrets with the thought that your BIL is a full grown adult and is responsilble for his own choices, not you. 

Best


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

I'd advise him not to re-title the houses no matter what she says. Pre-marriage property and all...


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I like how you guys put those thoughts into written words. Thanks @JohnA and @TeddieG and @Tron. I am going to try to say those things to him. 

But i am going to stay the hell away from them. I will let him know we support him whatever he decides. My SIL has always been a user, I know who she is. I thought I was helping him and now I feel used and stupid. I feel like she used me to get what she wants. I was just a piece on her chessboard. 

Then, she kept calling me about the properties and NY laws. I keep telling her to talk to a lawyer but what she wants me to do is to talk my BIL into signing everything over to her. 

I can be too trusting and thinking that everyone will act honorable. I had spoken to him about taking the uncle's name off the one property. The man is old and have ill health. So he did a few months back but put it in his name. Now my SIL thinks I have influence over him. My BiL had bought these three houses when he was a 19 and in his early 20's.

I guess I am a slow learner when it comes to people, this woman had tried to make my marriage miserable. How dumb could I have been? I guess I never learned the lesson of being careful with snakes. 

Thanks JohnA for the Marduk info. Very insightful.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Good Lord! He should divorce it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

One of the core tenants of computer science is...

"Garbage in, garbage out."

...and the meaning behind it is this --

No matter how good your algorithm is, if your input is garbage, your output is likely to be garbage as well. And I think that's what happened here.

IOW, you didn't have enough info w/ respect to everything going on in your BIL's marriage to give sound advice.

But here's the thing -- that's NOT on you.

Still, regardless of the details, your BIL's affair can't be condoned, and that's ESPECIALLY if the OW is married.

By the same token, it's probably pretty naive to think that your SIL hasn't cheated/isn't cheating as well.

I'd advise your BIL to divorce. I'd also tell him to split things as evenly as possible w/o impacting his mother or uncle.

As for his kids, if they're not working (and I'm not talking about flipping burgers) or going to school, I'd give each of them a hard timeline w/ respect to being out of the house and on their own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I understand your instinct to withdraw. I like how @TeddieG framed her response. I think @ConanHub summed it up best. 

I suggest you and your husband discuss what you see her doing with him, use Marduk's link to show him how she is, and how he can stop her, from manipulate him. After you leave I would urge your husband and their mother to each call weekly to check in and act as a sounding board, with you perhaps calling monthly or bi-monthly. 

Your goal, from my viewpoint, is for your BIL first protect himself and his assets from his wife but still own his actions. They are not mutually exclusive. If his wife insist they are one in the same divorce or wind up a case study on snapped or dateline.

Oh your response to SIL, "we are not a tool to be used by you to bully"


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

BrooklynAnn, I know you feel involved already, but my advice is to own your feelings about the error (to your BIL if you feel it the right course of action), but then do not involve yourself and your Husband any further in the matter. 

This is your BIL's life and while you should let him know you will help to offer emotional support if and when needed, it is not your place to get directly involved. 

Others may disagree, but in this case, he needs to handle his adult life and adult choices in the manner he sees fit. 

I know you feel partly responsible for the current situation, but your BIL did make a choice, and you should be ok in knowing that it is his choice to own, whatever input you first offered and however strongly you offered it.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Thanks guys. I will apologize to him. Because I feel bad and I hate feeling that because of my actions someone is in a bad place. 

I will offer our support if he needs it in the future. He deserves to be happy just divorce already.

And I am going to stay the hell away from her. She just text me about needing to talk to me and my gf who is a lawyer. I texted my girl is away in Africa, she is. This weekend I am going to tell her that I cant be involved anymore. That she also needs to change. But it's going to be that we are not taking her side, leaving her and her kids unprotected. Yada Yada.

Thanks you all. I just needed to confirm that I am doing the right thing this time. Instead of opening my big mouth without knowing the whole story.:crying:


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

BiL AND SiL BOTH sound like children. They both sound like not so great people. An adulterer who doesnt like his kids or wife and wont own up to his responsibility in it all and for lack of a better word b!tch who helped raise loser kids and isnt grown up herself and wants to party and belittle her husband and his family.

So I wouldnt be worried about any advice that didnt "help" these people. They are adults. Kind of.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

brooklynAnn said:


> Thanks guys. I will apologize to him. Because I feel bad and I hate feeling that because of my actions someone is in a bad place.
> 
> I will offer our support if he needs it in the future. He deserves to be happy just divorce already.


Don't be too hard on yourself, you did the best you could with the information you had at the time. Just apologize if you feel you need to, and let him know that should he decide to divorce (which sounds like he SHOULD) that he has your support.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Sheesh...toxic much? This marriage should be over.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Everyone gives and gets advice, then we all do whatever the hell we want anyway. He made his own decisions. His choice to cheat rather than deal with his problems head on were what led him to this crappy place. That's all on him.

That said, you have a great deal of involvement in his affairs. I think you need to step back. Being supportive is great but the best kind of supporter is the one that mostly just listens. You thought you should try to fix his life. This isn't your responsibility, it's his.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

You gave the best advice you could without knowing the rest of the story. I would let it go and whatever happens, happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Update.
So, I finally got to speak to my BIL yesterday morning. The entire weekend my SIL stuck to him like glue. 

I told him, we feel sorry that we pushed him into a corner and took his ability to make his own choices. We only want him to be happy. I also, told him if he was unhappy, he should have asked for a divorce and not go and have an affair. 

He said he asked for a divorce several times and she told him as soon as she gets the house.:grin2: So, I told him don't ever transfer the titles of the houses to her. He said no way. He figured out what she wanted.

I said next time you ask, have the papers in your hands and give it to her. He laughed.

Later, she told me how happy they are and things are going well. But in order for her to have peace of mind, she wants him to put her name on the properties. I did not say anything.

But my H said, when he went out with them, she was talking down to him. Telling him he makes no money. That he is doing nothing and he is a waste.

So, my h asked how much money she needs? The house in Fl is paid for by a house my BIL sold in NY and bought for $850k in cash. There is no mortgage. He collects about 6-8k in rent every month. I know because I somethings collect rent and make deposits when my MIL is not in the state.

She said she has bills. The kids have bills. The youngest is 18. 

So, my H told her his brother is now retired and what ever he makes is just bonus. If she can't live on her salary and the rent coming in she should look at her spending. So, she is oh, my H is not supporting her and taking his brothers side. Nobody knows what she is going thru.

So, my H told her to sell the fancy house and live in something smaller. She had no reply.

So, my weekend was tiresome with these people.

I have said my piece. Now my H and I will stay out of their affairs. Even, if they ask us. We are never involved in their lives. She is the one who asked to become involved. It not something that we do. I don't care that much for her but I love her kids.

Thanks for the advice. I knew exactly what to tell him and get it off my chest. Hopefully the dummy does not go and tell her, Ann said.

Thanks once again guys.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

JohnA said:


> Yes, tell him he is right to demand a divorce. Urge him to end the marriage.


I disagree with this advice. Apologize for putting your oar in. Tell him you love him and will support whatever decision(s) he makes. Don't URGE him to anything. Support him. Don't tell him what to do.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Why would anyone ASK for a divorce?


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why would anyone ASK for a divorce?


So, stupid. Mum can I have a candy? No. 

But, he thinks she will just hand him one. :frown2:


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I disagree with this advice. Apologize for putting your oar in. Tell him you love him and will support whatever decision(s) he makes. Don't URGE him to anything. Support him. Don't tell him what to do.


Oh, they are headed there. But I am not telling him to get one. Just take action, instead of asking. That's what I told him. Next time you want a divorce, go to the lawyer and get the papers. Don't ask. But I am out of their business now.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Middle of Everything said:


> BiL AND SiL BOTH sound like children. They both sound like not so great people. An adulterer who doesnt like his kids or wife and wont own up to his responsibility in it all and for lack of a better word b!tch who helped raise loser kids and isnt grown up herself and wants to party and belittle her husband and his family.
> 
> So I wouldnt be worried about any advice that didnt "help" these people. They are adults. Kind of.


*Given that's is the absolute truth, then I feel that no apology is in order! The advise you offered was apropos by most standards and was given honestly and forthrightly!

Pray for your brother and his entire family, but aside from dispensing occasional well-meaning advise, there's just not a lot out there that you can do!

IMHO, you do not need to be beating yourself up over any of this!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

brooklynAnn said:


> Oh, they are headed there. But I am not telling him to get one. Just take action, instead of asking. That's what I told him. Next time you want a divorce, go to the lawyer and get the papers. Don't ask. But I am out of their business now.


Smart move.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Just my opinion unless someone asks for your advice I suggest just keeping quite.


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