# The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life.



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've posted bits of this before, but now a more complete story. My wife is LD, which is not so unusual, and I've resigned myself to a very limited sex life, but a number of things about her behavior seem inexplicable to me. At this point its really just curiosity. 

We are in our 50s, married > 25 years. no children. Spend lots of time together and get along very well in general. Both are professionals and have no financial problems, illnesses, or really anything else wrong with our lives. We are generally very affectionate. Considering our ages, we are both reasonably fit and physically attractive. 

She wants sexual activity infrequently, maybe every couple of weeks. When we have sex, she generally seems to enjoy it, seems to O (and claims to), and claims to have enjoyed it afterwards. 

We long ago added toys to are sex life, and she now essentially always wants to have an O with a vibrator. I can give her an O by oral, but it takes a long time and she prefers quicker. I've offered her stand-alone Os, but she has only accepted once in 25 years.

There was a brief time years ago when our sex life got more frequent, after I let her know that I really wanted more. We had sex a couple of times a week including a variety of activities. During that time we had PIV often and also used toys, including some large ones that she enjoyed. She gave every impression of enjoying things. That gradually declined, picked up again briefly after I talked to her on 2 other occasions, but each time dropped away faster. 

She no longer wants PIV because its uncomfortable. Long ago it was also uncomfortable but when our sex life became more frequent, it did become comfortable and enjoyable. I've suggested frequently using small toys to get her comfortable with penetration again, and she agreed it would probably work, but doesn't act on it. 

Occasionally (few x / year) she really wants PIV, but it makes her sore. There is one position that sometimes works for her, but is very awkward for me. I do it as long as I can.

She used to give me BJs on my birthday. When I asked if she would do them more often she told me no, she thought they were horrible and abusive. I of course told her not to do them for my birthday anymore (she had shown no sign of being bothered before). Strangely she said "no, I'm happy to do it on your birthday, but only then". (????). I said no - I don't want to abuse my wife. 

Now that PIV is almost always out, no BJs, all she can do is give me HJs. The problem is that quite frankly she isn't very good, and won't take any gentle suggestions or requests to change things. She then complains that I'm very slow to finish and her arm gets tired.

Every once in a while I can get her to try something new for me, she will say it was fun, but then never do it again (even if I ask). Back to the same HJs. (??) I am always willing and eager to do anything she wants in bed, and do my best to guess what she wants since she rarely says. 

She rarely wants sex but every evening wears sexy lingerie around the house and appreciates my telling her how attractive she is in it, and appreciates hugs, kisses, etc. Recently she has been wearing the especially enticing stuff that normally implied an interest in sex that night, and has said we should get bed after dinner, but almost every time has been too tired when it was time. (??)

So: why complain that I'm slow to finish, but not want to do things she has previously said were fun that work better for me?

Why wear sexy lingerie around the house, but not want sex?

How can BJs be OK on my birthday, but absolutely disgusting and abusive at other times?

Why claim to, and appear to greatly enjoy sex, but always find excuses not to do so?

(and no, she won't answer these questions, or answers with a specific reason for a specific thing, not the general answer)


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

No real answers to your questions(beyond guessing) however, it sounds like she is calling all the shots.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Occasionally (few x / year) she really wants PIV, but it makes her sore. There is one position that sometimes works for her, but is very awkward for me. I do it as long as I can.


Very common given her age, things aren't really design to keep working past "reproductive age", so hormones that keep things ready for PIV tend to drop off. You'll need to use a bit of lube and also can't just pound away like teenagers cause the tissues that work that kind of thing aren't fit for it anymore.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

We do use lube, and I'm very careful.



spotthedeaddog said:


> Very common given her age, things aren't really design to keep working past "reproductive age", so hormones that keep things ready for PIV tend to drop off. You'll need to use a bit of lube and also can't just pound away like teenagers cause the tissues that work that kind of thing aren't fit for it anymore.


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## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

Man I'm telling you thank God I'm not married. I mean I know exactly what you're going through. It just makes me sick to my stomach, and here you are a good guy you're doing everything right in life. And yet you have a spouse that is completely selfish and self absorb. either sounds like she is a narcissist or BPD. I mean how could someone be so mean, she knows no one else's going find out what's really going on in your sex life and judge her because it's your sex life between each other. She's out-of-control someone earlier yeah she's calling all the shots and frankly she is so selfish self-centered person. Doesn't she know how selfish she comes off. and then you describe her you know walk around with lingerie and all that and yet she's a fvcking nightmare it's like she's fvcking. OP this will never get better until you put your foot down, And stand up to this bully who is your wife there is no compromise whatsoever at least in your sex life she's the dictator...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@uhtred, were you on TAM before the great password debacle under a different user name? Your description sounds very similar to @richardsharpe. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

She probably wanders around in lingerie because she needs your admiration and compliments, but still isn't interested in sex.

Good Lord! Has no one ever told this woman that BJ's are the opposite of abuse or degradation? In the case of BJ's, the giver has the power and the receiver is helpless under their spell. A woman skilled with her mouth can WTFPWN a man in minutes.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She does these things because she has some dysfunctions. I think the question isn't as much why, but more: is there is any way for you two to have a mutually enriching and fulfilling and complete relationship?

From what you have shared, it doesn't sound like there are (negatively impacting) behaviors of yours that you could change to have a positive change on her attitudes.

Are you prepared to stay in this relationship for the rest of your life?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> She probably wanders around in lingerie because she needs your admiration and compliments, but still isn't interested in sex.
> 
> Good Lord! Has no one ever told this woman that BJ's are the opposite of abuse or degradation? In the case of BJ's, the giver has the power and the receiver is helpless under their spell. A woman skilled with her mouth can WTFPWN a man in minutes.


"WTFPWN" 

Filed appropriately in my brain for some future moment, but not sure which one... LOL

That was too funny, @MJJEAN!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

She's vain, inconsiderate, lazy and selfish. 


Sorry man


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> "WTFPWN"
> 
> Filed appropriately in my brain for some future moment, but not sure which one... LOL
> 
> That was too funny, @MJJEAN!


Dusted that one off from my gaming days.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

uhtred said:


> 1. She rarely wants sex but every evening wears sexy lingerie around the house and appreciates my telling her how attractive she is in it, and appreciates hugs, kisses, etc. Recently she has been wearing the especially enticing stuff that normally implied an interest in sex that night, and has said we should get bed after dinner, but almost every time has been too tired when it was time. (??)
> 
> 2. So: why complain that I'm slow to finish, but not want to do things she has previously said were fun that work better for me?
> 
> ...


I can only answer these questions from my own perspective. So here goes:

1. If I do this, I am begging to get railed, so her doing that strikes me as nothing but a mean tease.
2. I assume because she is selfish and VERY lazy.
3. See #1
4. Wow, if this is abuse, I've been enjoying abusive relationships my whole life. She really, truly doesn't care what you want at all.
5. She probably would be mortified to be lumped in as a woman that doesnt like sex. Maybe she doesn't though? So she puts on the airs to pretend she does, but when it comes down to gettin busy she turns into a boring dud.
6. Shame on her. All these years into marriage and refusing to answer specific questions from her husband. I would point exactly that out to her and then in turn ask her how she would feel if you refused to answer her specific question about things that were very important to her?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> So: why complain that I'm slow to finish, but not want to do things she has previously said were fun that work better for me?
> 
> Why wear sexy lingerie around the house, but not want sex?
> 
> ...


Short answer - it's a control thing for her. Maybe completely subconsciously. She WANTS you to want her, but often, that's enough for her. BJ's are 'abusive', but not on your birthday, because it's her choice to do so. She'll wear enticing lingerie frequently, but it doesn't mean she's in the mood - she wants you to pay her some attention.

My wife is similar in many respects (and not just about sex). She DOES want me to want her, but it's almost as though that's all she wants.

A good example - a few weekends ago, I did not pursue sex with her on our scheduled/unscheduled day (ie the day sex is normally expected by both of us). I was tired, and not particularly in the mood, so I snuggled up with her in bed that night, and eventually fell asleep. The next morning, she woke me up to have sex. This never happens. I'd like to say that nonsexual intimacy the night before got her in the mood (and perhaps it did) but I know my wife quite well. This was more for her self esteem, IMO. I didn't pursue her the night before, and that doesn't sit well with her. This is not the first time I've either declined or otherwise 'rejected' her, and every time it's happened, it bothers her.

In other words, she reserves the right to decline or otherwise not be interested, but I'm not afforded the same courtesy. In other OTHER words, she wants to be in control.

When your wife wears lingerie around the house, she's expecting you to be interested, and as such, she can decline your advances when she pleases (which seems to be often). For many, simply being desired is the goal, and the physical interactions are unnecessary for their mental and emotional state. Again, I see this in my wife. Although the physical is enjoyed by her, it's not the ultimate goal. When I don't pay attention to her, she notices. I don't believe she's completely conscious of this, either.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

1. There is no truth to the belief that women weren't designed to want sex after childbear years.
2. It may be control but I think it has more to do with anxiety/shame combined with a lack of trust. I'm not suggesting you've somehow earned her lack of trust.
3. Responsive desire means I don't want sex unless I'm sexually aroused. First comes arousal, second comes desire to have sex. Without arousal, there is no desire to have sex.

Once I was fully in menopause, no more periods for at least 6 months, my near constant state of arousal, which fueled my very high sex drive, just disappeared. Now I very rarely experience spontaneous sexual arousal. However, because I had spent years in a state of constant sexual desire, I knew that my body would respond once things got started. This knowledge has allowed me to recognize that even though I'm not currently aroused, if my husband wants sex I never have the impulse to pull away because I know I willl get there.

It is that last sentence that I believe a lot of women don't fully understand. To trust that your husband will arouse your body and once your body is aroused your desire to have sex will happen. It's a trust in your body and a trust in your husband to consciously understand that to consent to having sex really means I consent for you to help me become aroused.

I wonder if your wife has considered this? Does she believe that even though she may not 'want sex' given proper time and willingness, you will arouse her and she will develop a desire. 

One of the moderators, @Amplexor has posted a few times that during his reconciliation for his wife, who had one foot out the door and according to him was highly skeptical, he asked her to give him 3 months (I think it was 3) of her sexual submission. Not that he was going to dominate her or tie her up, he meant that she was to give him blanket consent to have sex whenever he wanted. He also assured her that he wouldn't be demanding, that the kind of sex they would have would be sex that that usually had, and that being in his 50's it was very unlikely he'd want sex more often than 2-3 times a week, usually 2. During that time period, they continued to work on their marriage. His wife saw first hand that when he wanted sex, and she wasn't "in the mood" but consented because of their deal, she always became aroused and always enjoyed sex. She learned that just didn't have to begin sex already aroused. She learned that trusting to her husband to make it good for her worked. Amp credits this deal as the corner stone of their successful reconciliation.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Also, why is sex painful to her? Has she seen a doctor about this?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Alex, yes that's it. For some the goal is to be desired and admired, that's it. The goal is not sex or even sexual, really. 

But for those who live this way like your wife and the OPs wife...they get a lot of pleasure out of being desired and admired...as much or more as having sex or other physical pleasure.

I've read stories written by wives about husbands who are the same way. 

Uhthred, your wife has no clue that her actions come across this way to you. She is simply following her own path. You pose no challenge to the way she travels down her path so she has worn a groove into the earth by repetition.

And while you wonder and ponder about what all of this "means", she goes along on her path, continuing to wear a groove into the earth, giving zero thoughts to the subject you are tortured by. You think there must be some thought behind her actions....because they are so baffling...but there aren't. She's just stuck in that groove walking in a circle, but in no way is she unhappy. She doesn't understand why you are so unhappy about this thing. She is happy and has no need for more. She's confused by your occasional outbursts when you express dissatisfaction.

You have loved her as she is for all this time. Why would she understand that you actually haven't been happy? It doesn't make sense. You are good to her and you love her and act like you are happy. When you occasionally tell her you aren't happy she feels betrayed because you normally act like everything is fine.

Stop trying to figure her out and instead figure out why you act like you are happy when you aren't. Figure out why not rocking the boat is more important to you than your intimate life. It's about you. Trying to figure her out is just your minds way of keeping you on your own worn groove in the earth.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Good evening
Yes. I lost the old account and the associated "burner" email so I had no way to reset my password.




Lila said:


> @uhtred, were you on TAM before the great password debacle under a different user name? Your description sounds very similar to @richardsharpe.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She hasn't seen a doctor, thinks its "just age".

I think it is because sex is so rare. In the past, when we went long periods of time (months) without sex it would be uncomfortable. When sex was more common, the discomfort went away. I've assumed it was a combination of vag muscles not being used to stretching, and anticipating discomfort when things are rare.

When sex was very frequent she not only enjoyed penetration but enjoyed lots of fingers, large toys etc. 

She sort of agrees with all this when we discuss it, and agrees that we should try gentle sex (or small toys) frequently to see if it gets better - but then in each individual case she turns it down.



Anon Pink said:


> Also, why is sex painful to her? Has she seen a doctor about this?


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

A few thoughts, she obviously likes the attraction of sex just not the deed or finish. Maybe she secretly wants to be taken firmly, that would explain the lingerie, some women like to be taken. Soreness can be related to lack of natural lubrication so try some coconut oil. As far as other activities, try having her strip or play with herself while you masturbate or anal sex or but crack or tit sex. Just some things we've tried. Hope this helps.

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Richard:

Overlooking the fact that you were not entirely forthcoming about who you are, do you want the two accounts merged or the old one banned?


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## ppg (Nov 12, 2016)

I joined so I could ask one question. Sorry. Are you sure there are no third parties involved? Again sorry but I had to ask.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Don't really care. I have no access to the old one, so mods can ban it if they like. Can ban this as well if they think I broke the rules. I just lost any ability to use the old one. 



farsidejunky said:


> Richard:
> 
> Overlooking the fact that you were not entirely forthcoming about who you are, do you want the two accounts merged or the old one banned?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

No evidence that there is. Not sure that would explain things anyway - why flirt with me?

She is also independently wealthy, could leave me with no problems if she wanted to .



ppg said:


> I joined so I could ask one question. Sorry. Are you sure there are no third parties involved? Again sorry but I had to ask.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm sure she doesn't want to be "taken". I've started in that direction and she has made it clear she wants me to stop.

(if she has a rape fantasy, then she would have to tell me. No way I'm going to force against her wishes if she tells me to stop, unless there are pre-arranged safe words etc). 

The funny thing is that in the past she did like a bit of that sort of play, including being tied up, but she lost interest in that long ago. 



peterrabbit said:


> A few thoughts, she obviously likes the attraction of sex just not the deed or finish. Maybe she secretly wants to be taken firmly, that would explain the lingerie, some women like to be taken. Soreness can be related to lack of natural lubrication so try some coconut oil. As far as other activities, try having her strip or play with herself while you masturbate or anal sex or but crack or tit sex. Just some things we've tried. Hope this helps.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

It looks like she wears the sexy lingerie for herself. It makes her feel feminine and the bonus is that you compliment her. So, since she isn't wearing it for you - pay her no mind. It's not like you're going to get some anyway. I'd be tempted to turn the heat way down.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Alex, yes that's it. For some the goal is to be desired and admired, that's it. The goal is not sex or even sexual, really.
> 
> But for those who live this way like your wife and the OPs wife...they get a lot of pleasure out of being desired and admired...as much or more as having sex or other physical pleasure.
> 
> ...



One of your best posts!


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> It looks like she wears the sexy lingerie for herself. It makes her feel feminine and the bonus is that you compliment her. So, since she isn't wearing it for you - pay her no mind. It's not like you're going to get some anyway. I'd be tempted to turn the heat way down.


While I like Faithful Wife and Anon Pink's sharing and explanations, I think this also has merit as long as it doesn't come to a passive-aggressive tool of vengeful "tit-for-tat". 

It's hard to be open to the hurt we feel in a way that doesn't attack the other when we release it, yet we continue to shore it up many ways. Often that hurt is a self-perception of things our mind isn't ready to understand at the time, and "ready" comes from the patience to place all the pieces in the open so they are taken at true value and not some shadowed frustration that seeds inaccurate hurt, again, that shores up the accurate hurt that is valid and troubling.

Blondilocks can correct me if I am wrong in her outcome, but to me the recommendation of turning it down a bit will give you and your wife the room to be patient while you review the how's and why's offered by the others I mentioned in their very informative and thoughtful postings.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

You're being abused. Torture would be just as apt a description. Imagine throwing a tennis ball and telling your dog to go fetch it. You throw the ball, the dog turns and runs after it. After a second, the dog stops because it doesn't see the ball or hear where it landed. Little does it realize that the ball never left your hand. She wears sexy lingerie to get you worked up, and then suggests sex later, but always shuts you down with excuses. Are you the assertive type? Why do you give her all the power? This is not a healthy dynamic, not for you anyway, because you're letting her call all the shots. Next time she suggests sex later that night, drop everything, take her hand or lift her up, and carry her to the bedroom. See what she says.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Stop admiring her and paying attention when she galavants around in her teddies. Quit telling her she looks pretty. Ignore the fvck out of her and see what happens.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

@EmergingBuddhist, I was literally talking about the heat in the house - the furnace. Sexy lingerie does not keep a lady warm. It was a little passive/aggressive ploy that could entice her to snuggle up to him for body warmth. If not, at least she'll be freezing her tatas off.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> @EmergingBuddhist, I was literally talking about the heat in the house - the furnace. Sexy lingerie does not keep a lady warm. It was a little passive/aggressive ploy that could entice her to snuggle up to him for body warmth. If not, at least she'll be freezing her tatas off.


:laugh:

That's me... overthinking what you say! 

I literally stumbled over that one...

Your explanation is crystal clear now, but not sure that pass/aggress approach would play to his favor.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Probably not. But, as it is he's sitting at the children's table when it comes to sex. He doesn't have much to lose except a bad hand-job.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Probably not. But, as it is he's sitting at the children's table when it comes to sex. He doesn't have much to lose except a bad hand-job.


I fear he could end up eating off the floor if he is not mindful about this...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Take those ego kibbles away from her and see what she does.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> @EmergingBuddhist, I was literally talking about the heat in the house - the furnace. Sexy lingerie does not keep a lady warm. It was a little passive/aggressive ploy that could entice her to snuggle up to him for body warmth. If not, at least she'll be freezing her tatas off.


That's what I would do. IMO, the tease of the sexy slips or whatever she's wearing seems frustrating to you. If she must wear sweaters and pants in a cooler house, it might give you some breathing room.
It will also give you a clue as to whether the tease is intentional or subconscious, as she will have to go out of her way to do so.

I don't know if it will be even possible for you to (literally speaking) cool your house down, given your area and climate. If not, you might have do that figuratively, and make yourself scarce when she would normally be sexy nightie-ing around the house. If it was for you, she will change her timing.

Normally, i'd advise you to just ask her. but, in your case i think you will have to observe her instead.


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I'm sure she doesn't want to be "taken". I've started in that direction and she has made it clear she wants me to stop.
> 
> (if she has a rape fantasy, then she would have to tell me. No way I'm going to force against her wishes if she tells me to stop, unless there are pre-arranged safe words etc).
> 
> The funny thing is that in the past she did like a bit of that sort of play, including being tied up, but she lost interest in that long ago.


Maybe she wants to see you pleasure yourself in front of her when in lingerie, try it and she if it turns her on or if she feels guilty about it and reconsiders her actions. Push the limits, shake things up a little, what do you have to lose

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> *She no longer wants PIV because its uncomfortable.* Long ago it was also uncomfortable but when our sex life became more frequent, it did become comfortable and enjoyable. I've suggested frequently using small toys to get her comfortable with penetration again, and she agreed it would probably work, but doesn't act on it.
> 
> Occasionally (few x / year) she really wants PIV, but* it makes her sore. **There is one position* that sometimes works for her, but is very awkward for me. I do it as long as I can.


Women reach sexual maturity between 50 & 60 according to some research, so the average woman should really be able to enjoy sex. Your wife on the other hand is experiencing pain and discomfort, which is *not normal*. While I do not know, I'm guessing she may have a fibroid tumor in or near her cervical area making sexual activity soar. This may explain why a certain position, that perhaps avoids a problematic area caused by a fibroid would still be enjoyable for her. 

Read this Myoma (Fibroids) & Painful Intercourse

Hope that helps...

Badsanta


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## dianaelaine59 (Aug 15, 2016)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Very common given her age, things aren't really design to keep working past "reproductive age", so hormones that keep things ready for PIV tend to drop off. You'll need to use a bit of lube and also can't just pound away like teenagers cause the tissues that work that kind of thing aren't fit for it anymore.


HEY! 64 here, and things are working just fine thank you.

I love sex as much as I always have, and O's are even better than in my 50's.

Sent from my 0PM92 using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, she does have fibroids and that could easily be part of the problem, but its only part. She has had them for many years and during the time when sex was more common, she found it comfortable. Its possible that they have moved to a worse position, but on average they have been shrinking

I think the fibroids do limit the positions that are comfortable. I think there is also an issue with sex being rare and that making things uncomfortable as well. She is aware oft he fibroid problem, but she doesn't think that is the main issue. 

I don't think fibroid are the main problem, she had a very limited interest in sex long ago before she had them. 

I don't in any way pressure her for PIV since I know its uncomfortable. We only do it how and when she wants. While I enjoy PIV, I'm happy to do without, I don't want her doing things that hurt her. This problem combined with her lack of interest in anything else though makes things more difficult. 






badsanta said:


> Women reach sexual maturity between 50 & 60 according to some research, so the average woman should really be able to enjoy sex. Your wife on the other hand is experiencing pain and discomfort, which is *not normal*. While I do not know, I'm guessing she may have a fibroid tumor in or near her cervical area making sexual activity soar. This may explain why a certain position, that perhaps avoids a problematic area caused by a fibroid would still be enjoyable for her.
> 
> Read this Myoma (Fibroids) & Painful Intercourse
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To answer your last question: yes. I've given it careful thought and I'd rather stay with her with a limited sex life than leave her to get a good sex life. Sex is important, but so are other things.

Really I'm just sort of griping, and also just curious for insight on other parts of her behavior. 



Livvie said:


> She does these things because she has some dysfunctions. I think the question isn't as much why, but more: is there is any way for you two to have a mutually enriching and fulfilling and complete relationship?
> 
> From what you have shared, it doesn't sound like there are (negatively impacting) behaviors of yours that you could change to have a positive change on her attitudes.
> 
> Are you prepared to stay in this relationship for the rest of your life?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree that "control" is a significant part. Maybe its the main part. Maybe she has decided that the frequency of sex and the specific acts are "right" and she is exerting her control not to be deviated from that?

Its consistent. 

It doesn't explain the teasing, but it does seem to match other things quite well.



alexm said:


> Short answer - it's a control thing for her. Maybe completely subconsciously. She WANTS you to want her, but often, that's enough for her. BJ's are 'abusive', but not on your birthday, because it's her choice to do so. She'll wear enticing lingerie frequently, but it doesn't mean she's in the mood - she wants you to pay her some attention.
> 
> .


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Accurate and true.
I did at one point tell her very clearly that I was unhappy, why I was unhappy and what I wanted. She mostly just got angry and said that what I wanted was unreasonable. That I was like a spoiled kid who complained when he didn't get dessert all the time. 

After she apologized for getting angry, and said she would try to improve things - except she was angry that I had asked for more frequent BJs, thats when she told me they were abusive (she had never hinted at that before). Nothing changed. 

So, I can let her know I'm not happy. She will be unhappy. That will make me more unhappy, but our sex life will not improve.

Or, I can let things go as they are, she will be happy, I'll be unhappy, but not as unhappy as I am when when she is also unhappy. Our sex life will not improve. 

Or, I can leave, but other things are fine, and its not worth it to me to leave just to get sex. 

I might get sex by threatening to leave, but sex under threat is not what I want. 







Faithful Wife said:


> Alex, yes that's it. For some the goal is to be desired and admired, that's it. The goal is not sex or even sexual, really.
> 
> But for those who live this way like your wife and the OPs wife...they get a lot of pleasure out of being desired and admired...as much or more as having sex or other physical pleasure.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That's an interesting question. I'm sure she will stop wearing lingerie if I tell her I want her to stop. Years ago I did tell her that. and she stopped - but its not clear that really helps. 

It isn't actually frustrating anymore. I'm used to the idea that lingerie doesn't imply sex, so there really isn't any negative. OTOH I think she is wearing ever more enticing stuff because she isn't getting the reaction she wants? But why want me to lust after her, but not want sex? In any case its stopped working - nothing she wears makes me expect sex.




Blondilocks said:


> It looks like she wears the sexy lingerie for herself. It makes her feel feminine and the bonus is that you compliment her.  So, since she isn't wearing it for you - pay her no mind. It's not like you're going to get some anyway. I'd be tempted to turn the heat way down.


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## Trojan John (Sep 30, 2011)

Get a girlfriend?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have asked and she seems (or acts?) confused "I thought you liked to see me in XYZ...".

Its as if at some deep level she doesn't connect flirting and kisses / touching with sex. 

She'll stop wearing those things if I ask. 

She is quite capable of adjusting the thermostat herself, so physically cooling the house doesn't work. 




sixty-eight said:


> That's what I would do. IMO, the tease of the sexy slips or whatever she's wearing seems frustrating to you. If she must wear sweaters and pants in a cooler house, it might give you some breathing room.
> It will also give you a clue as to whether the tease is intentional or subconscious, as she will have to go out of her way to do so.
> 
> I don't know if it will be even possible for you to (literally speaking) cool your house down, given your area and climate. If not, you might have do that figuratively, and make yourself scarce when she would normally be sexy nightie-ing around the house. If it was for you, she will change her timing.
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

See bandit's post above.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sort of tried this. Several months of not commenting on her appearance, not being affectionate. She did ask why but when I told her how difficult it was to be affectionate without a sex life, she just went back to her usual. apologies for why we couldn't have sex in each particular case (tired, sick etc). All valid excuses except she is never too tired or sick to do things she wants to do. 

Overall result though was not change in sexual activity. 

Its pretty clear she doesn't know herself why she doesn't want sex often. Separate from that, her idea of what are "normal" sexual activities are very limited. PIV hurts (OK we can skip thta). Oral is disgusting (I can't change how she feels about that). so she thinks that leaves HJs and she just doesn't want to even change how she does that. 

I think the idea of being in "control" is very important. Somehow changing what she does sexually is losing control to her. 

(CSA? I can't very well ask if she has a limited interest in sex because she was abused as a child, can I?).





bandit.45 said:


> Take those ego kibbles away from her and see what she does.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Yes, she does have fibroids and that could easily be part of the problem, but its only part. She has had them for many years and during the time when sex was more common, she found it comfortable. Its possible that they have moved to a worse position, but on average they have been shrinking.


If she has fibroids and has resigned herself to thinking that they will just "go away" all on their own, your wife is someone that avoids problems instead of actively addressing them. That behavior has likely created a dynamic with regards to any other things making sex problematic.

As her husband, it is ultimately your job now to care for her and to determine what is best for her. Odds are you can help her address problems for the purpose of improving her overall quality of life with complete disregard towards sex. What you will find is that if her health and quality of life improves, so does physical intimacy. The mantra to go by is that, "it is hard to feel good when you don't feel good!"

As for the fibroids, the symptoms can be wide ranging from irritability of her vaginal lining, to strong discomfort and soreness during or after sex. There are often a wide range of treatments available, particularly if you are past the age of being fertile and/or are no longer planning to have more children. Many doctors and women opt to endure the discomfort associated with fibroids in order to maintain fertility for as long as possible. In your marriage this mentality may not be what is in her best interest anymore. 

If she will not talk to her doctor, then you should and see what options are available and recommended for your wife with consideration to her age and situation in life. Then talk to your wife and let her know you care about her!

Sincerely,
Badsanta


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I just don't understand this. I don't understand why someone would want to live this way. I'm just here shaking my head....perplexed.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Richard, now that I know it's you, I want you to know I have great sympathy for you and the horrible position your marriage has created. 

You seek answers in understanding your wife and I wonder why. What difference does it make to you or to her if you understand why her desire for sex is unalterable outside of action you refuse to take? Does knowing she may have uterine fibroids help you accept the lack of sex? If she has fibroids that make sex uncomfortable, why doesn't she see a doctor? You see it all keeps coming back to one unalterable truth. She sees no value in sex. Why, is anyone's guess. But everyone agrees there isn't a damn thing you can actually do to get her to value sex nearly as much as you do. Understanding her, appreciating her, loving her, complimenting her, spending time with her, hearing her, none of this will cause her to value sex. The only thing that might is to tell her you won't fight this sexless battle for the rest of your life and you are leaving. If she values you, she will seek ways to also value sex. If she doesn't value you enough, she will blame you for being selfish. You're not selfish.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

AnonPink speaks the cold truth. Cold.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I probably wouldn't volunteer all of this if it hadn't turned out to be Richard's thread but I'm familiar with his posts and sympathize. I speak as a woman who has never seen any value in sex. Total, complete Zero. There's sex abuse in my history. I assume that's why I am the way I am but I don't know for certain because I never sought help -- nor, truthfully, wanted it. I was always comfortable the way I was and dismissed my husband's very rare complaints. My thinking was that he was a typical male who wanted sex 24/7. 

Was that wrong all those decades I was married? Absolutely. Do I accept part of the blame -- and feel guilty -- because he became a serial cheater? Yes (although he may or may not have become a serial cheater regardless of my situation). Did I try? Yes. Was it enough? No. Do I wish I had been "normal"? No. I wish I could wish that -- but still no. All that's in hindsight (and well after my divorce). During my marriage I saw none of that. Unfortunately. 

Women with very little interest in sex are under-represented on TAM. Men who post about wives who are low drive (or no drive) feel they're among the very few in that situation. But in my experience, in real life, that's not true. I'm far from unique and that's why I'm sharing my story.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Sexual incompatibility is a killer of marriages.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

This is a great post @Openminded. Though you must admit it's a tad ironic your screen name is Openminded while you admit to being unalterable wrt to sexual desire. I do hope you see the humor in there because I am not blaming you nor suggesting you were or are wrong to feel the way you do.

I wanted to highlight something you said though...

"*Do I wish I had been "normal"? No. I wish I could wish that -- but still no.*"

Do you think the fear of sex and sexual desire (talking about sex, talking about what happened and how you felt bla bla bla) played a role in your decision to accept your lack of sexual desire and to not wish to be normal? I guess I'm wondering if the abuse not only killed your sexuality but also killed your bravery or courage (for lack of a better word) by generating such intense avoidance?



I sought to become normal because I wanted to be normal. My desire to be normal generated enough bravery to learn about the uncomfortable, but not enough bravery to be honest and open about what happened for another 10 years or so.





Openminded said:


> I probably wouldn't volunteer all of this if it hadn't turned out to be Richard's thread but I'm familiar with his posts and sympathize. I speak as a woman who has never seen any value in sex. Total, complete Zero. There's sex abuse in my history. I assume that's why I am the way I am but I don't know for certain because I never sought help -- nor, truthfully, wanted it. I was always comfortable the way I was and dismissed my husband's very rare complaints. My thinking was that he was a typical male who wanted sex 24/7.
> 
> Was that wrong all those decades I was married? Absolutely. Do I accept part of the blame -- and feel guilty -- because he became a serial cheater? Yes (although he may or may not have become a serial cheater regardless of my situation). Did I try? Yes. Was it enough? No. Do I wish I had been "normal"? No. I wish I could wish that -- but still no. All that's in hindsight (and well after my divorce). During my marriage I saw none of that. Unfortunately.
> 
> Women with very little interest in sex are under-represented on TAM. Men who post about wives who are low drive (or no drive) feel they're among the very few in that situation. But in my experience, in real life, that's not true. I'm far from unique and that's why I'm sharing my story.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> This is a great post @Openminded. Though you must admit it's a tad ironic your screen name is Openminded while you admit to being unalterable wrt to sexual desire. I do hope you see the humor in there because I am not blaming you nor suggesting you were or are wrong to feel the way you do.
> 
> I wanted to highlight something you said though...
> 
> ...


Laughing. Yes, AP, I do see the irony in my name. In my defense, I grew up in an ultra-conservative Southern state and by comparison to the rest of my family I'm extremely open-minded in virtually every way (smiling). 

I think part of the problem was that my mother wanted a tough, hard-as-nails, emotionless girl exactly like her and that's what she got. No vulnerablility. Ever. I absorbed my lessons well because I wanted very much to please my mother. Abuse most certainly contributed to who I am but my mother did too. There's something "key" missing in me and I've never cared enough to try to fix it. 

I've always hated the idea of sex. It isn't fear. It's extreme dislike. And I guess I would say I think sex is beyond stupid. However, that's not to say that when called on to perform I wasn't capable of delivering porn-star sex so it wasn't that I was shy or embarrassed about it. Far from it. I still found the whole experience ridiculous. Orgasms at the speed of light -- but totally meaningless. Just something my body did that meant nothing. I can't connect at all emotionally (and don't wish to connect physically). I'm locked down. It's an even greater irony that until my divorce I was the ultimate caregiver (obviously more from a sense of duty than a true need). 

You wanted to be normal. I have never wanted to be normal in any way. As a very small child I used to ask my mother over and over if she was totally positive I wasn't an alien. She said she was sure I wasn't. I never believed her.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

There is an awful lot of poor behaviour written about on TAM but this is a great example of one of the worst cases. Unless you wife has some sort of mental health issue it is hard to believe that she does not connect the dots between wearing lingerie around the house and sex.

This is seriously passive aggressive and plain old nasty. Look at me, look at me but do not touch me. Sorry RS but the whole thing sounds miserable and humiliating for you, why on Earth do you stay? I understand being able to live without sex even with a healthy sex drive but this is not about living with a lack of sex, this is about mental abuse by a spouse that really has very little regard for your happiness.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> I probably wouldn't volunteer all of this if it hadn't turned out to be Richard's thread but I'm familiar with his posts and sympathize. I speak as a woman who has never seen any value in sex. Total, complete Zero. There's sex abuse in my history. I assume that's why I am the way I am but I don't know for certain because I never sought help -- nor, truthfully, wanted it. I was always comfortable the way I was and dismissed my husband's very rare complaints. My thinking was that he was a typical male who wanted sex 24/7.
> 
> Was that wrong all those decades I was married? Absolutely. Do I accept part of the blame -- and feel guilty -- because he became a serial cheater? Yes (although he may or may not have become a serial cheater regardless of my situation). Did I try? Yes. Was it enough? No. Do I wish I had been "normal"? No. I wish I could wish that -- but still no. All that's in hindsight (and well after my divorce). During my marriage I saw none of that. Unfortunately.
> 
> Women with very little interest in sex are under-represented on TAM. Men who post about wives who are low drive (or no drive) feel they're among the very few in that situation. But in my experience, in real life, that's not true. I'm far from unique and that's why I'm sharing my story.


I am very much like you in my complete, lifelong disinterest in sex. One big difference between us is that it really bothered me that I wasn't "normal," starting in my teenage years, mostly because I felt that I was missing out on something big in life that other people enjoyed very much. I felt cheated that I felt no desire and that sex did nothing for me. 

So when I became an adult and realized that my disinterest in sex gave all indications of being a lifelong condition, I sought therapy and medical advice for many years, to no avail. I'm completely normal as far as hormone levels go, and all other physical conditions. If any sexual abuse occurred in my life, it happened before the threshold of memory.

Women with very little interest in sex ARE under-represented on TAM, and pretty much everywhere else. Some women get handed this card in life and must deal with it as best they can. btw, I've met a few women in real life and MANY women online who suffer with the same problem.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

uhtred said:


> That's an interesting question. I'm sure she will stop wearing lingerie if I tell her I want her to stop. Years ago I did tell her that. and she stopped - but its not clear that really helps.
> 
> It isn't actually frustrating anymore. I'm used to the idea that lingerie doesn't imply sex, so there really isn't any negative. OTOH I think she is wearing ever more enticing stuff because she isn't getting the reaction she wants? But why want me to lust after her, but not want sex? In any case its stopped working - nothing she wears makes me expect sex.


She wants to know you want her because it makes her feel good and as long as you still want her physically, she can be reasonably assured you won't leave her.

She doesn't see lingerie as an annoying tease because she doesn't become aroused and need sex, so she thinks of wearing lingerie the same way she thinks of runway models dressing in lingerie. Just something pretty to wear and be seen in. Nothing more.

Have you actually said to her "Wife, it's bad enough that there isn't likely to be enthusiastic monkey sex, so could you please stop wearing clothes that imply you want enthusiastic monkey sex? It's false advertising and it's not fun."


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Sort of tried this. Several months of not commenting on her appearance, not being affectionate. She did ask why but when I told her how difficult it was to be affectionate without a sex life, she just went back to her usual. apologies for why we couldn't have sex in each particular case (tired, sick etc). All valid excuses except she is never too tired or sick to do things she wants to do.
> 
> Overall result though was not change in sexual activity.
> 
> ...


She sounds very much like my late wife. Everything mentioned above. And, like you, I stayed even though the sex was almost non existent. Because there is more to life than sex. Years later I regret it sometimes.

And, recently, I've come to believe she was abused as a child. And control was very important.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

That would require that he put his foot down, which he has been singularly unwilling to do.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> Laughing. Yes, AP, I do see the irony in my name. In my defense, I grew up in an ultra-conservative Southern state and by comparison to the rest of my family I'm extremely open-minded in virtually every way (smiling).
> 
> I think part of the problem was that my mother wanted a tough, hard-as-nails, emotionless girl exactly like her and that's what she got. No vulnerabilility. Ever. I absorbed my lessons well because I wanted very much to please my mother. Abuse most certainly contributed to who I am but my mother did too. There's something "key" missing in me and I've never cared enough to try to fix it.
> 
> ...


My mother wasn't like yours at all. Mine was a beautiful, gentle source of unconditional love. But I did see her get walked over and treated horribly by my father, for no reason except that she was vulnerable and he was in a position of power over her in every conceivable way. So I came to a place of not wanting to be vulnerable via a different path, of not wanting to end up like her, living in fear of a bully.

I was OK with delivering the porn-star sex performances for a long time when I was younger, in order to please a boyfriend or my spouse. But I still felt that sex was pointless and boring, and I really wished it weren't a necessary part of having a close romantic relationship. But it clearly was, so I did what I had to do. Now that all that is behind me, I'm a bit incredulous that I was able to keep performing sex that I didn't want or enjoy for 30 years. Today, I'm grateful that all that is behind me, and that I can live authentically, the way that is natural to me.

There must be plenty of women that are like us out there. I read somewhere that 1% of the population is asexual, so that must include plenty of men, too. My hope is that someday, this variation of human experience will be talked about openly, so that young people don't have to feel broken and abnormal if they happen to be born that way.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

2020hindsight said:


> My mother wasn't like yours at all. Mine was a beautiful, gentle source of unconditional love. But I did see her get walked over and treated horribly by my father, for no reason except that she was vulnerable and he was in a position of power over her in every conceivable way. So I came to a place of not wanting to be vulnerable via a different path, of not wanting to end up like her, living in fear of a bully.
> 
> I was OK with delivering the porn-star sex performances for a long time when I was younger, in order to please a boyfriend or my spouse. But I still felt that sex was pointless and boring, and I really wished it weren't a necessary part of having a close romantic relationship. But it clearly was, so I did what I had to do. Now that all that is behind me, I'm a bit incredulous that I was able to keep performing sex that I didn't want or enjoy for 30 years. Today, I'm grateful that all that is behind me, and that I can live authentically, the way that is natural to me.
> 
> There must be plenty of women that are like us out there. I read somewhere that 1% of the population is asexual, so that must include plenty of men, too. My hope is that someday, this variation of human experience will be talked about openly, so that young people don't have to feel broken and abnormal if they happen to be born that way.


I totally agree. Pointless and boring describe it well. I was married 45 years and that's a very long time to perform when you don't want or enjoy sex. I did it because it was a necessary part of marriage. Nothing more. What I do greatly regret is not truly figuring all of that out before I got married (my excuse -- such as it is -- is that I married young but I always knew I wasn't normal). That was totally unfair to my husband. I won't have another relationship because of it. I, too, am glad to finally be authentic for the first time ever. That could very well be part of why I'm at peace with my life now that I'm divorced (I hadn't thought of that before now).


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I totally agree. Pointless and boring describe it well. I was married 45 years and that's a very long time to perform when you don't want or enjoy sex. I did it because it was a necessary part of marriage. Nothing more. What I do greatly regret is not truly figuring all of that out before I got married (my excuse -- such as it is -- is that I married young but I always knew I wasn't normal). That was totally unfair to my husband. I won't have another relationship because of it. I, too, am glad to finally be authentic for the first time ever. That could very well be part of why I'm at peace with my life now that I'm divorced (I hadn't thought of that before now).


I had wondered what kind of inner strength you had/have that makes you feel perfectly content with your decision to never marry again. Now I know. Now I have a little better understanding of why that idea of not ever having a partner again never set easily with me.

Thanks Openminded. You've helped me today by sharing your story.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I had wondered what kind of inner strength you had/have that makes you feel perfectly content with your decision to never marry again. Now I know. Now I have a little better understanding of why that idea of not ever having a partner again never set easily with me.
> 
> Thanks Openminded. You've helped me today by sharing your story.


My story is complicated. And full of contradictions. Parts of it make no sense at all -- even to me. Sometimes I can't believe I lived that off-balance life. 

I still mourn my ex-husband's death. I miss him greatly. But I don't want to replace him for many reasons. I'm an only child and an introvert. I'm very content alone. And I'm finally at peace with my life. Very late, but finally. 

Relationships don't work for everyone, unfortunately, and I'm one of those they just don't work for.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She has talked to a doctor. The only solution in her case is a hysterectomy (she has multiple fibroids). and she doesn't want such major surger. I completely support her choice. She is well past child bearing age.

Fibroids limit PIV sex, but don't affect other things.



badsanta said:


> If she has fibroids and has resigned herself to thinking that they will just "go away" all on their own, your wife is someone that avoids problems instead of actively addressing them. That behavior has likely created a dynamic with regards to any other things making sex problematic.
> 
> As her husband, it is ultimately your job now to care for her and to determine what is best for her. Odds are you can help her address problems for the purpose of improving her overall quality of life with complete disregard towards sex. What you will find is that if her health and quality of life improves, so does physical intimacy. The mantra to go by is that, "it is hard to feel good when you don't feel good!"
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are lots of things to life. Sex is one of them, but not the only one. You hear me complaining about sex, but the rest of our lives is great. We have good friends, common interests, interesting high-paying jobs. Good health, complete trust in each other.

Sex really is the only problem. 




bandit.45 said:


> I just don't understand this. I don't understand why someone would want to live this way. I'm just here shaking my head....perplexed.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Good evening
At this point I think it really is curiosity, and a faint hope of finding a way to improve things. The rest of our lives are great. We've had brief periods - a few months at a time, of great sex. I just can't figure out how to get that back. (or maybe it was only great for me? )

You are right though, she does not value sex 





Anon Pink said:


> Richard, now that I know it's you, I want you to know I have great sympathy for you and the horrible position your marriage has created.
> 
> You seek answers in understanding your wife and I wonder why. What difference does it make to you or to her if you understand why her desire for sex is unalterable outside of action you refuse to take? Does knowing she may have uterine fibroids help you accept the lack of sex? If she has fibroids that make sex uncomfortable, why doesn't she see a doctor? You see it all keeps coming back to one unalterable truth. She sees no value in sex. Why, is anyone's guess. But everyone agrees there isn't a damn thing you can actually do to get her to value sex nearly as much as you do. Understanding her, appreciating her, loving her, complimenting her, spending time with her, hearing her, none of this will cause her to value sex. The only thing that might is to tell her you won't fight this sexless battle for the rest of your life and you are leaving. If she values you, she will seek ways to also value sex. If she doesn't value you enough, she will blame you for being selfish. You're not selfish.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Good evening Openminded
I appreciate your posting here, especially since TAM can be hostile to people with a low interest in sex. I think there are a lot of people like that, but few who are willing to post. 

I can understand not valuing sex. If you take a step back, what is the point? Its not at all obvious why it should be fun, or why people make such a big deal about it. 

A tricky question: do you not like sex for yourself, or do you feel (emotionally, not intellectually) that it is wrong for others to enjoy it? 

Does my wife's physically enjoying sex, but not wanting it match the way you felt? Could you get physical pleasure but not want it?






Openminded said:


> I probably wouldn't volunteer all of this if it hadn't turned out to be Richard's thread but I'm familiar with his posts and sympathize. I speak as a woman who has never seen any value in sex. Total, complete Zero. There's sex abuse in my history. I assume that's why I am the way I am but I don't know for certain because I never sought help -- nor, truthfully, wanted it. I was always comfortable the way I was and dismissed my husband's very rare complaints. My thinking was that he was a typical male who wanted sex 24/7.
> 
> Was that wrong all those decades I was married? Absolutely. Do I accept part of the blame -- and feel guilty -- because he became a serial cheater? Yes (although he may or may not have become a serial cheater regardless of my situation). Did I try? Yes. Was it enough? No. Do I wish I had been "normal"? No. I wish I could wish that -- but still no. All that's in hindsight (and well after my divorce). During my marriage I saw none of that. Unfortunately.
> 
> Women with very little interest in sex are under-represented on TAM. Men who post about wives who are low drive (or no drive) feel they're among the very few in that situation. But in my experience, in real life, that's not true. I'm far from unique and that's why I'm sharing my story.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But strangely she does value my happiness - in every other way. 

It may be similar to what Openminded posted, my wife doesn't like or see the point of sex. She gets physical pleasure, but it doesn't mean anything, and she just can't understand that its important to other people. 





MrsHolland said:


> There is an awful lot of poor behaviour written about on TAM but this is a great example of one of the worst cases. Unless you wife has some sort of mental health issue it is hard to believe that she does not connect the dots between wearing lingerie around the house and sex.
> 
> This is seriously passive aggressive and plain old nasty. Look at me, look at me but do not touch me. Sorry RS but the whole thing sounds miserable and humiliating for you, why on Earth do you stay? I understand being able to live without sex even with a healthy sex drive but this is not about living with a lack of sex, this is about mental abuse by a spouse that really has very little regard for your happiness.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

From the posts here, maybe someone should start a thread in the ladies lounge for support for women who do not want sex. I think there may be quite a few who aren't comfortable discussing it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> There must be plenty of women that are like us out there. I read somewhere that 1% of the population is asexual, so that must include plenty of men, too. My hope is that someday, this variation of human experience will be talked about openly, so that young people don't have to feel broken and abnormal if they happen to be born that way.


I think asexuality is such a complicated subject that it's difficult to really talk about in the same way one discusses the other branches of human sexuality. It's in no small part due to the fact that nobody really talks about it... A vicious circle, if you will.

My wife identifies herself as asexual, but it's a very grey area (like much of asexuality, I'm learning). She does so because she feels no sexual attraction to anybody, and never has. Yet she does have a sex drive, albeit a small one. Basically, she is asexual with a responsive sex drive towards men.

And this is part of the reason that the entire subject isn't discussed - because the asexual spectrum is so vast to begin with, and it affects a relatively small part of the population as a whole. Far less than the other sexual identities. You start out with ~1% of the population, then you further break those people down into the myriad other identities within this already small faction. You can identify as asexual, and be attracted to men, women, or both. You can enjoy sex, you can masturbate, or you could be completely repulsed by sexual activity. You could enjoy the physical aspect of sex or just the intimate, emotional side - or both.

As far as I understand, the only thing that people who identify as asexual have in common is lack of sexual attraction to people. It's not about spontaneous desire or the inability to get turned on, per se, but just the lack of attraction to a person in a sexual manner. The way the other ~99% of the population can look at a man or woman and be attracted to them (which often includes wanting to be sexual with them).

My wife, as I understand it, has never felt a physical or sexual attraction to somebody in her life. Funny story, she went on a date with a guy, shortly before we connected. It was a guy we both knew from our school days. In a nutshell, he is not an attractive man. He IS a very nice guy, but he's definitely not blessed in the physical/facial side of things. For that matter, my wife's ex is not an attractive guy, either. My wife is beautiful, honestly, and not just to me.

I often wondered what she had seen in these guys, but it started to make sense once the topic of asexuality came up. That's not to denigrate these two particular men and what other things they bring to the table, but from the standpoint of physical attraction, it didn't make sense to me.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> She has talked to a doctor. The only solution in her case is a hysterectomy (she has multiple fibroids). and she doesn't want such major surger. I completely support her choice. She is well past child bearing age.
> 
> Fibroids limit PIV sex, but don't affect other things.


I happen to have a family member in a similar situation. She also thinks that surgery is not the best choice for her and she has chosen to live with her fibroids, but takes certain medications to help shrink them and mitigate the side effects. Every time she calls the house I cringe answering the phone. I am not sure if it is just her personality or the side effects of her condition, but she is an extremely difficult person to talk to because she is very judgmental and easily irritated. She just put me through an inquisition regarding my plans for Thanksgiving, insisting I had to do everything at my house. Turns out her plans are to take a vacation, so she is unable to attend, but she wanted to take credit for insuring our father would have a nice Thanksgiving that was planned at my house. 

...anyway I got off on a tangent there... If your wife's fibroids are not too large in size they can be treated with *Endometrial Ablation* which is a five-minute procedure for women that are no longer of child bearing age. I would read up on this and if it is really that effective for fibroids. If her fibroids are too large or outside her uterus, then indeed a hysterectomy is going to be the advised course of action.

Keep in mind that large fibroids can cause issues with digestion, in that they can interfere with her bowels natural indications of when it is time to evacuate. They can also cause back pain by placing pressure or causing swelling near areas where nerves are sensitive. What I am getting at is that fibroids and the associated symptoms are things that impact the quality of life beyond her ability to just enjoy sex again. So if she does experience any of those things, talk to her doctor, and her doctor will be like, "oh yes, it can cause all of those problems as well!"

Badsanta


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Good evening Openminded
> I appreciate your posting here, especially since TAM can be hostile to people with a low interest in sex. I think there are a lot of people like that, but few who are willing to post.
> 
> I can understand not valuing sex. If you take a step back, what is the point? Its not at all obvious why it should be fun, or why people make such a big deal about it.
> ...


Smiling. It's complicated. 

Certainly, it's possible to physically enjoy the literal moment (i.e., orgasm) and not want sex -- or even think about it once it's over. It's not important. It's definitely not a need. It happens on occasion and that's about it. And I absolutely would never feel that what others enjoy is wrong (well, as long as it's legal) but I admit I don't understand it -- no matter how much I try to. It just doesn't make sense to me. A totally foreign concept. 

What I really wish is that people like me understood how they truly feel about sex before marriage and then we could find someone like ourselves who preferred being sexless (I know they're out there). But almost always we end up marrying some HD person and sex becomes a battleground. Maybe, like me, they think they can adjust but sooner or later realize they were wrong. And there's the guilt that can go with the resentment at having to perform and not wanting to. Dreading it more times than not. Shaking my head. 

I'm familiar with your story and I'm sorry it happened to you and all the others on TAM with similar stories. In a better world there would be no sexual mismatches. I rarely say life's unfair (because what would be the point -- we know that) but, yes, it certainly is.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> From the posts here, maybe someone should start a thread in the ladies lounge for support for women who do not want sex. I think there may be quite a few who aren't comfortable discussing it.


It can be difficult to admit that you're not the norm. I've been on TAM for years and have generally avoided the subject. The two sides don't understand each other (much like my marriage was) and things can become hostile when this subject is brought up. Plenty of posters enjoy sparring. I'm not one who does. But I felt I should at least try to explain what life is like for those of us who aren't interested in sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In my wife's case, the quick summary is that she has discussed the options in detail with her doctor and decided that living with them is the best option. I wasn't aware of personality issues from fibroids, the other issues I know about. I haven't noticed personality changes since these became an issue - though its an interesg=ting possibility.






badsanta said:


> I happen to have a family member in a similar situation. She also thinks that surgery is not the best choice for her and she has chosen to live with her fibroids, but takes certain medications to help shrink them and mitigate the side effects. Every time she calls the house I cringe answering the phone. I am not sure if it is just her personality or the side effects of her condition, but she is an extremely difficult person to talk to because she is very judgmental and easily irritated. She just put me through an inquisition regarding my plans for Thanksgiving, insisting I had to do everything at my house. Turns out her plans are to take a vacation, so she is unable to attend, but she wanted to take credit for insuring our father would have a nice Thanksgiving that was planned at my house.
> 
> ...anyway I got off on a tangent there... If your wife's fibroids are not too large in size they can be treated with *Endometrial Ablation* which is a five-minute procedure for women that are no longer of child bearing age. I would read up on this and if it is really that effective for fibroids. If her fibroids are too large or outside her uterus, then indeed a hysterectomy is going to be the advised course of action.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What do you consider "putting ones foot down"? Other than threatening to leave, or withholding sex for her (which she doesn't care about), what do you suggest?



farsidejunky said:


> That would require that he put his foot down, which he has been singularly unwilling to do.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think its easy for people to project their own feelings onto others. I know I did with my wife: I physically enjoyed sex, and so wanted lots of it. I assumed that if she physically enjoyed sex, she would want lots of it, it simply never occurred to me that that might not be the case.

The resentment of feeling you have to have sex you don't want, the resentment of being denied what you think of as a "normal" sex life combine to make a mismatch really bad for a marriage. I wish this sort of issue was more openly discussed for young people - it would save a lot of misery. HD, LD, ND are all fine, but compatibility is critical.


Do you feel desire for non-sexual physical closeness? Hugs, kisses etc? 




Openminded said:


> Smiling. It's complicated.
> 
> Certainly, it's possible to physically enjoy the literal moment (i.e., orgasm) and not want sex -- or even think about it once it's over. It's not important. It's definitely not a need. It happens on occasion and that's about it. And I absolutely would never feel that what others enjoy is wrong (well, as long as it's legal) but I admit I don't understand it -- no matter how much I try to. It just doesn't make sense to me. A totally foreign concept.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The same thing I have suggested from the very first time you posted of your situation.

Stop being selfless with someone who is selfish. Stop meeting her needs. Find other things that are mutually fulfilling and invest your time in those. 

Richard, I have found myself in a similar situation when my wife becomes comfortable. We normally have to revisit it a couple of times per year. She gets comfortable, sex and intimacy dwindles, and I stop meeting her needs. It normally takes one week of this for her to lose her crap. She does not see the hypocrisy, and I am done pointing it out to her, but she can expect me to go weeks without sexual intimacy, yet can't go a week when I withdraw my providing for her EN's.

Your wife has no reason to change, to make more effort, because you are allowing her to be comfortable in the face of your own discomfort. You are enabling her; pure and simple. Until you accept that AND do something about it, nothing will change.



uhtred said:


> What do you consider "putting ones foot down"? Other than threatening to leave, or withholding sex for her (which she doesn't care about), what do you suggest?


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> The same thing I have suggested from the very first time you posted of your situation.
> 
> *Stop being selfless with someone who is selfish. Stop meeting her needs. Find other things that are mutually fulfilling and invest your time in those*.
> 
> ...


This is what i was trying to say a few pages back. I think farsidejunky said it better.
Completely agree. 
Why would she change, when she gets everything she wants?



sixty-eight said:


> I don't know if it will be even possible for you to (literally speaking) cool your house down, given your area and climate. *If not, you might have do that figuratively, and make yourself scarce when she would normally be sexy nightie-ing around the house.* If it was for you, she will change her timing.
> 
> Normally, i'd advise you to just ask her. but, in your case i think you will have to observe her instead.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I understand, but not sure how to apply. The root issues is that she doesn't want sex, or at least enjoys sex only rarely and a very limited set of activities. I can get into a situation where she does sexual things she doesn't like in return for me being nice to her in various ways, but that feels very transactional. 

I also enjoy making her happy. Avoiding doing nice things for her until she "agrees" to have sex, just feels sort of mean. 

She won't pickup hints. There have been times I've been less affectionate and she eventually asks why. When you keep in mind that she thinks our sex life is normal and good, I'm stuck with:

"I've stopped getting you flowers and giving you back rubs because you won't give me blowjobs". I just don't see any way that doesn't come across really badly.

(for "blowjobs", substitute any other sexual activity that she doesn't want to do). 

She doesn't like doing these things, and nothing I can do will make her enjoy it. I don't think there is a way to "fix" this. The LD / ND people who have been generous enough to post here can probably comment on how they would feel. 


Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all the advice and suggestions. I just think its really difficult for people with normal sexual desire to understand how it feels to have no desire. 





sixty-eight said:


> This is what i was trying to say a few pages back. I think farsidejunky said it better.
> Completely agree.
> Why would she change, when she gets everything she wants?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

New data. Last night I did a bunch of nice things for my wife in bed, but let her know that I really wasn't interested in her reciprocating. I said I was happy to please her, but trying to give me HJs was just getting her frustrated since I was so slow, and didn't do much for me. (I wasn't trying to be passive-aggressive, I just really didn't feel like another HJ). 

She responded by trying to do much more for me including some oral (something that is normally extremely rare). I honestly told her that she didn't need to do that, that I knew she hated it - but this time she said she didn't mind. 


My best read on this is that its "control" again.  She had decided that we were going to have sex, and that part of that was that I should get an O. Having decided that, she was happy to do whatever it took. 


I'm waiting to see what happens next. Its possible that she has found that this and other things are a way to get me an O more easily (she is very "goal" driven in sex). That could be nice. OTOH, its quite possible that next time I'll get a "you only like things that I dislike" complaint. 

I have BTW suggested a wide range of things I would enjoy in bed, but she normally doesn't want to do those either.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I think its easy for people to project their own feelings onto others. I know I did with my wife: I physically enjoyed sex, and so wanted lots of it. I assumed that if she physically enjoyed sex, she would want lots of it, it simply never occurred to me that that might not be the case.
> 
> The resentment of feeling you have to have sex you don't want, the resentment of being denied what you think of as a "normal" sex life combine to make a mismatch really bad for a marriage. I wish this sort of issue was more openly discussed for young people - it would save a lot of misery. HD, LD, ND are all fine, but compatibility is critical.
> 
> ...


No, I didn't really desire hugs or kisses although I dealt with that much better than I did sex. 

Adding to the problem, my husband felt he had won the lottery. I was his ultimate fantasy from the moment we met until he died (didn't stop him from cheating but that's another story) so I felt guilty about that. He wasn't my ultimate fantasy (only because I never had one) but he was a gorgeous man for sure. That was wasted on me and I felt guilty about that as well. However, none of my guilt prompted me to do anything about my issues because I felt he was the problem -- not me. 

In my defense, I didn't realize until I came to TAM just how far I am from the norm. I grew up in a very religious home and my extended family and friends were exactly the same. Ultra-conservative time and place. And I married young. But the truth is that I just didn't see why sex was a big deal and why anyone would really care about something that seemed ridiculous to me. Now that it's too late I get it. And I did apologize to my ex-husband not long before he died and told him I wished I had been a better wife (his response was that I was a wonderful wife -- which isn't true although I certainly tried, but failed). Shaking my head.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You were a good wife because you tried to make him happy, even though you didn't enjoy things yourself. 

Your feelings about sex do seem to mirror my wife's thoughts - she also doesn't see sex as a big deal. Seems legitimately perplexed that it matters to me. (her comment when angry at me about it that I was like a kid who just wanted dessert all the time). The one big difference is that she really enjoys non-sexual touch and intimacy. 

Its difficult to know what the norm really is. People who post about sexual issues on TAM are almost by definition people who care about sex. There may be many people who feel the way that you do.

I really appreciate your perspective on this. 






Openminded said:


> No, I didn't really desire hugs or kisses although I dealt with that much better than I did sex.
> 
> Adding to the problem, my husband felt he had won the lottery. I was his ultimate fantasy from the moment we met until he died (didn't stop him from cheating but that's another story) so I felt guilty about that. He wasn't my ultimate fantasy (only because I never had one) but he was a gorgeous man for sure. That was wasted on me and I felt guilty about that as well. However, none of my guilt prompted me to do anything about my issues because I felt he was the problem -- not me.
> 
> In my defense, I didn't realize until I came to TAM just how far I am from the norm. I grew up in a very religious home and my extended family and friends were exactly the same. Ultra-conservative time and place. And I married young. But the truth is that I just didn't see why sex was a big deal and why anyone would really care about something that seemed ridiculous to me. Now that it's too late I get it. And I did apologize to my ex-husband not long before he died and told him I wished I had been a better wife (his response was that I was a wonderful wife -- which isn't true although I certainly tried, but failed). Shaking my head.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

As far as being willing -- I was always willing to do whatever it was he wanted but I never wanted to. My emotions were not in it. Not once during those decades did I initiate. That's another foreign concept I can't grasp. 

I did want him to be happy. I just wished it didn't involve sex. I often told him he should not have been so caught up in the visual when it came to me because he would always be disappointed. He disagreed. We were, in my opinion, much better off as friends and once the bitterness of the divorce was over that's what we became. I loved him but not the way I should have. And I still miss him.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> You were a good wife because you tried to make him happy, even though you didn't enjoy things yourself.
> 
> Your feelings about sex do seem to mirror my wife's thoughts - she also doesn't see sex as a big deal. Seems legitimately perplexed that it matters to me. (her comment when angry at me about it that I was like a kid who just wanted dessert all the time). The one big difference is that she really enjoys non-sexual touch and intimacy.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Richard. I did a lot of damage and it's not easy to live with it. He did say before he died that I had nothing to apologize for but I know better.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Thanks, Richard. I did a lot of damage and it's not easy to live with it. He did say before he died that I had nothing to apologize for but I know better.


My wife made an apology of sorts on her deathbed but she never gave me the why of it. So alike and yet so different.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Meant to say this before and forgot. On paper we were the perfect couple. Our friends referred to us as Ken and Barbie (I didn't especially like being Barbie but being Ken amused him). The shock waves among family and friends when we divorced were huge. I had people tell me I was totally crazy for divorcing him. But I couldn't carry the illusion of the perfect couple any longer. I had kept his secret when I caught him cheating 15 years into our marriage. I refused to do that the last time. He didn't want the divorce but I knew he would remarry five minutes after the final decree was signed and he did. But he loved me until he died and I knew it. We just didn't work.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This sounds so familiar and so very sad. 

Its not your fault you didn't have the desire he wanted / needed. There is no way you could have understood how he felt, and you did the best you could do. You could physically do what he wanted, but you could not have the desire that he really needed. 

Its not his fault that he couldn't enjoy love without sex. He could not have understood how you felt. He cheated to try to get the thing that was missing from his life - something meaningless to you, and inseparable from love to him.

Having your friends think you have a wonderful life makes it worse. We are also the perfect couple. So friendly and affectionate (in a non-sexual way) in public. We go on romantic trips, enjoy our time together. No one could imagine that on our 25th anniversary, staying in an ancient palace on the grand canal in Venice, my wife spend the evening reading, and I spent it playing computer games. 

I wonder how many couples are like this. 








Openminded said:


> Meant to say this before and forgot. On paper we were the perfect couple. Our friends referred to us as Ken and Barbie (I didn't especially like being Barbie but being Ken amused him). The shock waves among family and friends when we divorced were huge. I had people tell me I was totally crazy for divorcing him. But I couldn't carry the illusion of the perfect couple any longer. I had kept his secret when I caught him cheating 15 years into our marriage. I refused to do that the last time. He didn't want the divorce but I knew he would remarry five minutes after the final decree was signed and he did. But he loved me until he died and I knew it. We just didn't work.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> This sounds so familiar and so very sad.
> 
> Its not your fault you didn't have the desire he wanted / needed. There is no way you could have understood how he felt, and you did the best you could do. You could physically do what he wanted, but you could not have the desire that he really needed.
> 
> ...


Yes, I wish very much it could have been different. 

I majored in European history and always loved going to Europe as often as I could. He didn't mind going but it wasn't his first choice. He did it for me. His first choice was Hawaii, which I had no interest in, and so I did that for him. We spent many evenings over the decades in romantic, far-away places doing exactly the same as you and your wife. I would be reading. He would be playing solitaire on the computer. What a waste.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

uhtred said:


> I understand, but not sure how to apply. The root issues is that she doesn't want sex, or at least enjoys sex only rarely and a very limited set of activities. I can get into a situation where she does sexual things she doesn't like in return for me being nice to her in various ways, but that feels very transactional.
> 
> I also enjoy making her happy. Avoiding doing nice things for her until she "agrees" to have sex, just feels sort of mean.
> 
> ...


Look... first you're framing this wrong. You don't want "sex", you don't want "blow jobs", you don't want "anal". You want a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" with your wife. NEVER again frame it as "sex" because what you will get back is "all you want is sex!"

Second, explain that a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" is important to the relationship... not to YOU.

Third, explain that a monogamous relationship with a spouse goes hand-in-hand with "forsaking all others". You can't ask for one of you don't provide the other.

Finally, don't look at these as trades. Your ability to provide for her needs (attention, moral support, non-sexual intimacy) is greatly diminished by not having your need for a "fulfilling intimate sexual relationship" with her. You can't have a one-way street.

But after all this, what do you do? If you're not ready yo (a) divorce, (b) open the marriage or (c) continue fighting this battle then you may as well just give up.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> In my wife's case, the quick summary is that she has discussed the options in detail with her doctor and decided that living with them is the best option. *I wasn't aware of personality issues from fibroids, the other issues I know about. I haven't noticed personality changes since these became an issue - though its an interesting possibility.*


Not to get too complicated, but imagine yourself with a very mild toothache that gets worse over time. At first you still enjoy eating all you favorite foods, and can indulge without too much discomfort. Then as your toothache gets worse, you have to start chewing tough foods on just one side of your mouth, avoiding acidic foods, and perhaps become rather sensitive to hot or cold foods. You adjust your diet to mitigate your toothache, and the discomfort becomes manageable. Time goes by, and now you mostly enjoy soft smoothies sipped through a straw, and convince yourself that all those other foods you used to enjoy were not healthy for you anyway, as you have started loosing a little weight. Occasionally you enjoy a cheeseburger about once a month because you really miss it, but the pain from your toothache makes it challenging to enjoy. 

Meanwhile as all this has gradually taken place over a great deal of time, it is hard to notice how your personality has changed. Especially with regards to the topic of everyone else enjoying cheeseburgers and your sentiment towards them when you feel like this:










Badsanta


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Chris Taylor said:


> Look... first you're framing this wrong. You don't want "sex", you don't want "blow jobs", you don't want "anal". You want a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" with your wife. NEVER again frame it as "sex" because what you will get back is "all you want is sex!"
> 
> Second, explain that a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" is important to the relationship... not to YOU.


If you want a "fulfilling, intimate SEXUAL relationship", a person who isn't interested in sex thinks that all you want _is_ sex. Their objection isn't to the specifics, it's to the principle of having a sexual relationship on anything other than their own terms.



> Third, explain that a monogamous relationship with a spouse goes hand-in-hand with "forsaking all others". You can't ask for one of you don't provide the other.


You can be having a monogamous relationship in which you forsake all others. Monogamy and forsaking all others explicitly exclude _having sex with anyone else_. Your semi-celibate relationship absolutely meets the definition of monogamous. Basically when you agree to the marriage vows, YOU _explicitly_ agree to not have sex with anyone else. You can argue it's implicit, but there is nothing there where your partner agrees to give you the level and type of sex you want. Not at all.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> If you want a "fulfilling, intimate SEXUAL relationship", a person who isn't interested in sex thinks that all you want _is_ sex. Their objection isn't to the specifics, it's to the principle of having a sexual relationship on anything other than their own terms.
> 
> 
> 
> You can be having a monogamous relationship in which you forsake all others. Monogamy and forsaking all others explicitly exclude _having sex with anyone else_. Your semi-celibate relationship absolutely meets the definition of monogamous. Basically when you agree to the marriage vows, YOU _explicitly_ agree to not have sex with anyone else. You can argue it's implicit, but there is nothing there where your partner agrees to give you the level and type of sex you want. Not at all.


There are plenty of things expected in a marriage that are not explicit. No where does it say at least one spouse needs to bring in enough money to keep a roof over your head or food on the table. No where in the marriage contract does it say that a man can't beat his wife. There are plenty of implied agreements in marriage and sex between spouses is one of them.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The post below is good, it is simply incomplete.

1. First of all - the idea that your very smart wife doesn't pick up hints is likely incorrect. She knows that because you are a gentleman, you have to be highly agitated to be totally blunt. 
2. You can't make someone like sex anymore than you can make someone be ambitious.





uhtred said:


> I understand, but not sure how to apply. The root issues is that she doesn't want sex, or at least enjoys sex only rarely and a very limited set of activities. I can get into a situation where she does sexual things she doesn't like in return for me being nice to her in various ways, but that feels very transactional.
> 
> I also enjoy making her happy. Avoiding doing nice things for her until she "agrees" to have sex, just feels sort of mean.
> 
> ...


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Openminded said:


> It can be difficult to admit that you're not the norm. I've been on TAM for years and have generally avoided the subject. The two sides don't understand each other (much like my marriage was) and things can become hostile when this subject is brought up. Plenty of posters enjoy sparring. I'm not one who does. But I felt I should at least try to explain what life is like for those of us who aren't interested in sex.


I'm not sure the two side don't understand each other. I am a HD woman but completely understand that everyone is different and there is no judgement for those that are different. It is not obligatory to be a sexual person. To me it really is no big deal.
The part of the OP that is not right is the teasing and wearing lingerie around the house knowing her husband does want sex. That comes across as nasty and passive aggressive. 

There are two different issues at play here. If people are LD or ND all power to them but a decent person would not throw PA behaviour into the mix.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Chris Taylor said:


> There are plenty of things expected in a marriage that are not explicit. No where does it say at least one spouse needs to bring in enough money to keep a roof over your head or food on the table._ No where in the marriage contract does it say that a man can't beat his wife. _There are plenty of implied agreements in marriage and sex between spouses is one of them.


That's covered under the Criminal Justice Act. Saying that it isn't explicitly stated in the marriage vows that you can't beat your wife won't constitute a defence against a charge of assault occasioning actual bodily harm and a year in the clink. Similarly, it might be IMPLIED that there is sex between spouses, but there is nothing whatsoever anywhere that says what constitutes the "right amount", and there is a slew of things written down quite clearly that state that trying to get anyone to do anything sexual that they aren't 100% comfortable with, whether in terms of the specifics of the act, location, frequency or whatever, is morally indefensible, and quite possibly illegal. There have been cases around this as being "controlling or coercive behaviour in intimate or familial relationships", under the Serious Crime Act.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

MrsHolland said:


> I'm not sure the two side don't understand each other. I am a HD woman but completely understand that everyone is different and there is no judgement for those that are different. It is not obligatory to be a sexual person. To me it really is no big deal.
> The part of the OP that is not right is the teasing and wearing lingerie around the house knowing her husband does want sex. That comes across as nasty and passive aggressive.
> 
> There are two different issues at play here. If people are LD or ND all power to them but a decent person would not throw PA behaviour into the mix.


I totally agree. 

PA behavior is inappropriate.


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I understand, but not sure how to apply. The root issues is that she doesn't want sex, or at least enjoys sex only rarely and a very limited set of activities. I can get into a situation where she does sexual things she doesn't like in return for me being nice to her in various ways, but that feels very transactional.
> 
> I also enjoy making her happy. Avoiding doing nice things for her until she "agrees" to have sex, just feels sort of mean.
> 
> ...


I'm saying that you fulfill her emotional needs. She enjoys being looked at, cuddled with, etc. She likes control. I would tip the canoe and not spend a lot of time at home. I don't know how else to make someone who likes having you around, but won't follow through when you explain that your needs and hers are far different (besides divorce). She takes takes takes from you, and when it's time to reciprocate, she tells you that you are selfish to want sex all the time.

She seems to have selective desire, at times she has really liked sex, and she likes cuddling and making out, and dressing in sexy things/ being looked at. That's the part that has always thrown me.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Richard! Good evening.

Your original question - why does your wife wear lingerie and appear to enjoy sex but then avoids it?

As others have already said she needs to be needed and wants to be wanted. You seem to have accepted that she will never be someone who enjoys frequent and exploratory sex. She appears quite rigid in what she will do and how often she will do it. 

Her self esteem is likely to be secure in her attractiveness. As I approach my mid 40's my attractiveness suddenly became crucial. I recognized I had an unreasonable need to be seen and verbally appreciated as attractive and sexy, when in reality my H would find me attractive wearing a bin bag. I have worked really hard in the past few years to put my energies into other - nonsexual things - that make me feel great and that my husband appreciates and admires in me. For instance my academic achievements feature high in my self worth.

As you seem to be resigned to your wife's lack of desire for sex, and the lingerie around the house seems wholly inappropriate considering; maybe you could work on nonsexual things to boost her self value and self esteem. I am sure she has lots of talents and attributes that can make her feel valued by you. Maybe ignore the lingerie and praise her for other areas in her life that are admirable. 

(I wish I had a magic wand to make you have a rocking sex life but the above is the best I can think of).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree but she would not. For her, love / romance and sex are completely unrelated things. I'm sure she thinks that she is doing her part by giving me a HJ every week (things used to be much rarer, but I think she finally decided that she *should* do this). 

She feels she is already doing a lot, and doesn't appreciate being asked for more. She said this at one point that it seemed that nothing she did was enough. The problem is that her idea and my idea of a reasonable sex life are just so very far apart. 





Chris Taylor said:


> Look... first you're framing this wrong. You don't want "sex", you don't want "blow jobs", you don't want "anal". You want a "fulfilling, intimate sexual relationship" with your wife. NEVER again frame it as "sex" because what you will get back is "all you want is sex!"
> snip
> .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Teasing about sex is like teasing someone about their weight. Very toxic.




MrsHolland said:


> I'm not sure the two side don't understand each other. I am a HD woman but completely understand that everyone is different and there is no judgement for those that are different. It is not obligatory to be a sexual person. To me it really is no big deal.
> The part of the OP that is not right is the teasing and wearing lingerie around the house knowing her husband does want sex. That comes across as nasty and passive aggressive.
> 
> There are two different issues at play here. If people are LD or ND all power to them but a decent person would not throw PA behaviour into the mix.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Why not buy her some baggy flannel pajamas, or a terrycloth bathrobe; and tell her to wear them around the house, because you're tired of looking at her in her sexy lingerie.

You have to tell her that the lingerie "modeling" is a tease to you and it makes you UNhappy when there is no sex later on.

^^^If you tell her that----point blank, explicitly---- and she _continues _to parade around in her frillies and silkies; then she is a b*tch. Sorry, but that's what it would mean.


uhtred, you've got a lot to offer a receptive woman. Since your wife is well off financially. Since there are no children/grandchildren in the picture. Since life is short; but you've probably got a couple of good decades left . . .

I understand that you can love her, for a lot of reasons. But do you really think that you *like her*?


Just want to correct something I read upthread: a woman is in menopause *after a year without having a period*; not 6 months.

Menopause and Perimenopause-Topic Overview



> Menopause is the point in a woman's life when she has not had her period for 1 year. It marks the end of the childbearing years. It's sometimes called "the change of life."


Missed Periods: When Do They Mean Menopause? - Menopause




> I can tell you that technically, menopause begins after you have missed periods for 12 months,


Irregular Periods and Perimenopause | HealthyWomen



> Menopause is timed as the date of the final period, confirmed after periods have been missed for 12 months.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Yes, 12 months. Seems like a slight difference but at least in some cases it is a difference. My wife's problems became much worse after the 12 month gap had finally occurred. The previous few years with only a small handful of periods was a mere warmup...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

To clarify, if I asked my wife to stop wearing lingerie around the house she would. I think I've mistakenly given the impression that it bothers me, when really it mystifies me. 

Once I understood that her wearing lingerie didn't imply sex, it stopped being teasing. So not it is really just curiosity: Why go out of her way to buy and wear sexy lingerie that probably isn't the most comfortable thing in the world, when she doesn't want to entice me. 

I've even make the distinction clear to hear between lingerie that looks very nice in a non-sexual way. (well mostly non-sexual, I still find her very attractive in a Japanese silk bathrobe), and lingerie that is clearly designed to entice. So if she wants non-sexual appreciation of her appearance, she can get it. Yet she still wears the very sexy stuff - why? Why look for attention that she is planning to turn down?



Again, its not really a problem anymore - I know the sexy clothes don't imply a desire for sex.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> To clarify, if I asked my wife to stop wearing lingerie around the house she would. I think I've mistakenly given the impression that it bothers me, when really it mystifies me.
> 
> Once I understood that her wearing lingerie didn't imply sex, it stopped being teasing. So not it is really just curiosity: Why go out of her way to buy and wear sexy lingerie that probably isn't the most comfortable thing in the world, when she doesn't want to entice me.
> 
> ...


Because she gets a kick rejecting you? More control?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

uhtred said:


> To clarify, if I asked my wife to stop wearing lingerie around the house she would. I think I've mistakenly given the impression that it bothers me, when really it mystifies me.



If you ask her to stop wearing it, and she complies; then it gets rid of the unwanted sexual stimulus for YOU. You know there isn't going to be sex; so stop being subjected to a woman wearing alluring, pretty robes and nighties, or whatever the case may be. This should help to get sex off of your mind. And send a message to your wife that you are sick of this situation..




> Once I understood that her wearing lingerie didn't imply sex, it stopped being teasing. So not it is really just curiosity: Why go out of her way to buy and wear sexy lingerie that probably isn't the most comfortable thing in the world, when she doesn't want to entice me.



I'm not sure I believe that you are not being teased. Really? A woman whom you are attracted to is walking around in lingerie; and you constantly want more sex. It sounds like you are trying to convince yourself that she isn't a tease. And she DOES want to "entice" you, and then not follow through on it.





> I've even make the distinction clear to hear between lingerie that looks very nice in a non-sexual way. (well mostly non-sexual, I still find her very attractive in a Japanese silk bathrobe), and lingerie that is clearly designed to entice. So if she wants non-sexual appreciation of her appearance, she can get it. * Yet she still wears the very sexy stuff - why? Why look for attention that she is planning to turn down?
> *



You're answering your own questions. She *could* wear less overtly sexual items like Japanese silk bathrobes; but she still wears the very sexy stuff. 1+1=2, uhtred.





> Again, its not really a problem anymore - I know the sexy clothes don't imply a desire for sex.



It is a problem because you are here at TAM looking for answers. And if you know that the sexy clothes don't imply a desire for sex; then ask her to stop wearing them. It might make your life with her just a little bit more bearable.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> This sounds so familiar and so very sad.
> 
> Its not your fault you didn't have the desire he wanted / needed. There is no way you could have understood how he felt, and you did the best you could do. You could physically do what he wanted, but you could not have the desire that he really needed.
> 
> ...


I don't think it's as familiar as one would believe. The drifting apart and having different priorities - yes, absolutely. That's all too common. When sex isn't important to one person, it's easy to completely forget about it entirely. However, they can be reminded that it's important, provided their interest in maintaining the relationship supercedes the interest in doing things they don't understand.

What I see in OpenMinded's story isn't simply a lack of desire, but more an inability to compute sexuality, thus leading to an unwillingness to play along any more. And that's fine. The inability to compute sexuality (as well as lack of sexual attraction) is what defines asexuality. Oddly enough, lack of desire does not. There are many asexuals who HAVE desire (mainly for physical stimulation).

Many people who identify as asexual don't understand sex in general, but they _'understand'_ its importance and role in a relationship. But then there are a small percentage who either don't, or decide 'enough is enough, I can't do this any more', and take being single over the grind of being married and having to be somebody they're not - even if it's in a relatively small way. And that's okay.

But, it's difficult for us non-asexuals to fully understand the challenges associated with engaging in sexual acts, say, once a week, for the sake of an otherwise good and healthy relationship or marriage. And it's exceedingly difficult for us to understand why we might not be worth it. In my experience with an asexual wife, I understand that there's no physical attraction to me, or anybody else. That was not easy to comprehend at first (we all want to be physically desirable to our partners). But once I wrapped my head around that, things were okay. My wife does get something out of sex, so at the moment, it's worth it to her. I don't believe she forces herself to do anything she doesn't want to do. She does get physical pleasure from it, which she enjoys (but does not require the way most of us do). She does get closeness and intimacy (which she DOES require). And she gets a good relationship from it (which she also desires).

A couple of years ago, I had a post in which I compared sexual needs to (I think it was) bowling. Weird analogy, I know, but it's what popped in my head at the time. Now I can take or leave bowling, and could never bowl again in my life and I wouldn't think twice about it. But when I do it, I have fun.

That said, if I married someone who likes to bowl once or twice a week, I'm not sure how long I could keep that going, or how fun it would be after a year or two of that. That would be up to me. Whether the trade off would be worth it, I suppose. Maybe eventually I'd grow to hate it. Maybe it'd just become part of my life and I wouldn't think twice about it. Tuesday and Saturday becomes bowling night. Or I could go all-in and we'd join a league, my wife would be happy and it's a small sacrifice I'd make for her sake.

IMO, there's no harm in doing something that makes your partner happy, provided it doesn't make you UNhappy. Would I like to bowl twice a week? No, not particularly. But if it was important to my wife, I almost certainly would, and would make the absolute best of it. After all, it's time spent together.

On the flip side, I'd expect her to understand that bowling is not a high priority to me, and that she shouldn't expect me to view it the same way she does. I wouldn't want to be berated for throwing a gutter ball once in a while.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Remember, I've lived with a woman with almost no interest in sex for decades, so I have a great deal of practice in not being attracted to her. I really don't mind the sexy lingerie, it just seems strange that she would wear it. 

My best read on her is that "sex" is something different from everything else. She wants attention, romance, non-sexual intimacy. She likes being appreciated (who doesn't), and actually loves and is attracted to me - in a non sexual way. 

At one point long ago I tried to explain to her why this sort of behavior was frustrating, and it honestly seemed that she didn't understand. I got "But I though you liked to see me dressed like this...". Its why I've described her as wanting a PG13 romance. She wants all the things that are associated with romance, but there is always a scene-cut before any actual sex happens. She thinks its completely normal to be affectionate, hug, kiss, etc - then curl up in bed together naked and go to sleep. 

Its just *sex* itself that is a problem. I wonder if there was CSA that caused some sort of hangup about sex. 





notmyrealname4 said:


> If you ask her to stop wearing it, and she complies; then it gets rid of the unwanted sexual stimulus for YOU. You know there isn't going to be sex; so stop being subjected to a woman wearing alluring, pretty robes and nighties, or whatever the case may be. This should help to get sex off of your mind. And send a message to your wife that you are sick of this situation..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

alexm said:


> I don't think it's as familiar as one would believe. The drifting apart and having different priorities - yes, absolutely. That's all too common. When sex isn't important to one person, it's easy to completely forget about it entirely. However, they can be reminded that it's important, provided their interest in maintaining the relationship supercedes the interest in doing things they don't understand.
> 
> What I see in OpenMinded's story isn't simply a lack of desire, but more an inability to compute sexuality, thus leading to an unwillingness to play along any more. And that's fine. The inability to compute sexuality (as well as lack of sexual attraction) is what defines asexuality. Oddly enough, lack of desire does not. There are many asexuals who HAVE desire (mainly for physical stimulation).
> 
> ...


It's difficult to explain because I didn't ever experience what's "normal" so I don't know what that's like in order to compare it to how I am. Being able to orgasm extremely quickly was never important to me -- just something my body was capable of -- but it was important to my ex-husband so I always made sure I did but I could have easily passed that up if it had been up to me. It was not something I needed although for a moment I enjoyed it (but never wanted to repeat it). 

Since sex was important to him, and a duty of marriage, I cooperated (for the most part) but I never initiated. That was totally up to him. As he aged, and his health declined, sex became less frequent and that bothered him. I was relieved although I didn't tell him that (he probably knew anyway). I hope his second marriage was better. I certainly messed up his first one.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

With hindsight, what would you recommend for other couples in this situation? Often you can look back and think about what you or he should have done differently. Its not fair, since hindsight is always good, but your thoughts might be useful to others who haven't gotten to the hindsight part yet. 





Openminded said:


> It's difficult to explain because I didn't ever experience what's "normal" so I don't know what that's like in order to compare it to how I am. Being able to orgasm extremely quickly was never important to me -- just something my body was capable of -- but it was important to my ex-husband so I always made sure I did but I could have easily passed that up if it had been up to me. It was not something I needed although for a moment I enjoyed it (but never wanted to repeat it).
> 
> Since sex was important to him, and a duty of marriage, I cooperated (for the most part) but I never initiated. That was totally up to him. As he aged, and his health declined, sex became less frequent and that bothered him. I was relieved although I didn't tell him that (he probably knew anyway). I hope his second marriage was better. I certainly messed up his first one.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> With hindsight, what would you recommend for other couples in this situation? Often you can look back and think about what you or he should have done differently. Its not fair, since hindsight is always good, but your thoughts might be useful to others who haven't gotten to the hindsight part yet.


Communication. From the beginning. The longer the problem exists, the less likely a good resolution is. Better to know exactly where you stand even if tough truths have to be said. I didn't do that. 

We weren't good at communicating. Not very often, he would bring frequency up and I would agree to try harder. It never lasted. Twice a week was the most I ever managed and that was difficult to sustain although I tried. The problem was the gap between what he considered good (daily) and what I considered good (never). I think he always hoped that one day a switch would be thrown and I would be like him. I knew that would never happen. I sometimes tried to explain my limitations but I didn't want to hurt his feelings so I left many things unsaid. That was wrong.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Again sounds very familiar.
As I'm sure you experienced, communication about sex is really difficult in this situation. There is so little common ground for discussion, your thoughts are just so different. Each sort of expecting that the other will change because the other's behavior makes so little sense.

Its really difficult to say "I don't like sex and never will". or "Even though I love you, I can't have a happy life without sex". 

To one person there is the never-ending question of "why does he/she want me to do this think I dislike? There are so many other things we enjoy together. They wouldn't pressure me if they really loved me."

To the other "why can't he/she enjoy something that means so much to me, or at least enjoy making me happy. They would if they really loved me". 


So, a question: did you consider an open marriage so he could have sex with someone else? If not, why not? If you were happy with no sex at all, that eliminates the classic worries of disease etc. 




Openminded said:


> Communication. From the beginning. The longer the problem exists, the less likely a good resolution is. Better to know exactly where you stand even if tough truths have to be said. I didn't do that.
> 
> We weren't good at communicating. Not very often, he would bring frequency up and I would agree to try harder. It never lasted. Twice a week was the most I ever managed and that was difficult to sustain although I tried. The problem was the gap between what he considered good (daily) and what I considered good (never). I think he always hoped that one day a switch would be thrown and I would be like him. I knew that would never happen. I sometimes tried to explain my limitations but I didn't want to hurt his feelings so I left many things unsaid. That was wrong.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> As far as being willing -- I was always willing to do whatever it was he wanted but I never wanted to. My emotions were not in it. Not once during those decades did I initiate. That's another foreign concept I can't grasp.


What you describe is the same as the sex life in my marriage. I provided sex on demand and drew no barriers in what sexual acts i would do. But I honestly would rather not have been doing any of it. It was all for him. With the best will in the world, that gets a bit dreary after a quarter century or so. I couldn't help but wonder why he wanted to do any of it, especially as we moved toward middle age.

I guess one of my illusions was that he'd probably get less interested in sex as he grew older.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The tragic hope of the HD that the LD will come to enjoy it, and of the LD that the HD will get tired of it. I wonder either of those actually happens. 

Sadly the attempts by both at compromise make this worse:

The LD tries to please the HD, and the HD interprets that as the LD starting to enjoy sex.

The HD tries to suppress their desire and not pressure the LD. The LD interprets that as the HD finally getting tired of sex. 



I guess I'd ask the same question: did you consider an open marriage as a way you could both get at least something like what you wanted?





2020hindsight said:


> What you describe is the same as the sex life in my marriage. I provided sex on demand and drew no barriers in what sexual acts i would do. But I honestly would rather not have been doing any of it. It was all for him. With the best will in the world, that gets a bit dreary after a quarter century or so. I couldn't help but wonder why he wanted to do any of it, especially as we moved toward middle age.
> 
> I guess one of my illusions was that he'd probably get less interested in sex as he grew older.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Richard, I think the answer is that you have to accept what little sex you have, be happy with it, and stop hoping to change her. I think you would be so much happier. 

If she were physically incapable of having sex, you know you wouldn't like it but you'd accept it and deal.

To me, this is basically the same.

I'm saying this because you've made it clear you will never divorce her. So this is the only path to you having more happiness....to completely accept your situation.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

alexm said:


> I don't think it's as familiar as one would believe. The drifting apart and having different priorities - yes, absolutely. That's all too common. When sex isn't important to one person, it's easy to completely forget about it entirely. However, they can be reminded that it's important, provided their interest in maintaining the relationship supercedes the interest in doing things they don't understand.
> 
> What I see in OpenMinded's story isn't simply a lack of desire, but more an inability to compute sexuality, thus leading to an unwillingness to play along any more. And that's fine. The inability to compute sexuality (as well as lack of sexual attraction) is what defines asexuality. Oddly enough, lack of desire does not. There are many asexuals who HAVE desire (mainly for physical stimulation).
> 
> ...


One way to describe "the challenges associated with engaging in sexual acts, say, once a week, for the sake of an otherwise good and healthy relationship or marriage": think of someone you really love, but in a nonsexual way. Someone you adore and would lay down your life for. Your grandmother, your brother, your parent, your child. Now think how it would feel to be obliged to perform sexual acts with them, because they really want you to, weekly or more often. Sort of icky, right? You would think, why is this necessary to prove my love? Can't they realize how much I love them without going down this road that is so unnatural for me? 

Having sex without desire is no fun. There are barriers of smell and taste that are much easier to cross, per scientific research, when arousal is present.

It's not like bowling. Bowling is an activity that you can do while dressed and reasonably dry and clean, without climbing on top of somebody naked or having them climb on top of you. There's no penetration involved in bowling, or bodily secretions. I think a person being penetrated needs to be fairly happy about that in order to enjoy it.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

uhtred said:


> The tragic hope of the HD that the LD will come to enjoy it, and of the LD that the HD will get tired of it. I wonder either of those actually happens.
> 
> Sadly the attempts by both at compromise make this worse:
> 
> ...


I would have felt that an open marriage would have been dangerous for our family in a number of ways:

- the danger of exposure to disease (from her to him to me) and the very real health consequences of venereal infection, especially for women

- the danger of a sexual partner becoming pregnant, which could result in a considerable financial drain on our family, in the form of child support for 18 years and very possibly big legal expenses

- the danger of a sexual partner making unreasonable demands, perhaps for money, perhaps pressure to leave the marriage, perhaps for time away from the family

- the danger of my husband falling in love with the new sex partner and leaving the family, leaving my children without a father

- the danger of my husband contracting the AIDS virus, which could ruin his health and possibly cut his life short

That's just off the top of my head. I should explain that, before our marriage, my husband knew all about my sexual nature (or rather my lack of a sexual nature), and he insisted that he wouldn't be happy spending his life with anyone but me, just as I was. I would never have gotten married otherwise. We also lived together for four years before we got married, so he knew the real me very well. Consequently, I would have taken a request for an open marriage from him as a betrayal of all the promises he made that convinced me to get married.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> One way to describe "the challenges associated with engaging in sexual acts, say, once a week, for the sake of an otherwise good and healthy relationship or marriage": think of someone you really love, but in a nonsexual way. Someone you adore and would lay down your life for. Your grandmother, your brother, your parent, your child. Now think how it would feel to be obliged to perform sexual acts with them, because they really want you to, weekly or more often. Sort of icky, right? You would think, why is this necessary to prove my love? Can't they realize how much I love them without going down this road that is so unnatural for me?
> 
> Having sex without desire is no fun. There are barriers of smell and taste that are much easier to cross, per scientific research, when arousal is present.
> 
> It's not like bowling. Bowling is an activity that you can do while dressed and reasonably dry and clean, without climbing on top of somebody naked or having them climb on top of you. There's no penetration involved in bowling, or bodily secretions. I think a person being penetrated needs to be fairly happy about that in order to enjoy it.


Fair enough.

But that then begs the question - why marry? (or date, for that matter). I understand that one doesn't want to be alone (though we are seeing, in this thread, an almost overjoyment of being alone, if not at least an acceptance of it, when all is said and done).

If ones KNOWS this is the way they are, then why string somebody along, ostensibly for life? If you KNOW you simply can not provide for your spouse in this, or any other major way, then why put that upon them? (or yourself, for that matter).

Apples and oranges, but when my ex wife left me, she eventually told me she had fallen out of love with me YEARS earlier. She didn't want to 'hurt me'. The irony is that it hurt MORE, and ultimately it was selfish on her part, under the guise of being selfLESS towards me. What would have hurt me less, would have been to have those years back, which she essentially took from me.

I would feel the same way if my wife told me she felt the same way you or OpenMinded did about the subject - especially about it like being with a family member. Reading this thread makes me think there's a distinct possibility this IS how she feels about it, as much as I try to think not. I would be furious, TBH.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

2020hindsight said:


> I would have felt that an open marriage would have been dangerous for our family in a number of ways:
> 
> - the danger of exposure to disease (from her to him to me) and the very real health consequences of venereal infection, especially for women
> 
> ...


Genuine question - did he know that you felt the way you described about sex, or did he simply think you had little to no desire? There's a big difference. Lack of desire, but a willingness and ability to take part, and even generally enjoy it (or at least not be repulsed by it) is a far cry from literally not wanting to have sex, at all, period, full stop.

I, too, would have been okay with the woman I loved being generally uninterested in sex, provided the rest of her was good or great. However, I would not have been okay with it if she were to tell me within the early days of our relationship that she was repulsed by sex and never wanted to do it.

It's my opinion, and it may be harsh but - if a person who is dating and otherwise looking for a relationship and eventually marriage, feels this way about sex and sexuality, it should be disclosed immediately. Not gradually. Not when you build up enough trust to drop this kind of thing, not after months or years of faking it - immediately. Like second date.

If this is how one is - it's perfectly okay. We are who we are, and there's no judgement (from me, at least). This isn't about HOW one feels about the subject, it's about disclosing unbelievably important information during the early stages of a relationship. The stage at which two people make decisions about whether each other is "the one", and if they want to spend their lives together.

AFAIK, my wife isn't repulsed by sex, but this thread is now making me question it. Maybe she is. Regardless, the fact that she has never been sexually attracted to anyone in her life, never had the urge for sex or to masturbate, never got (or gets) turned on by anything, external or otherwise, and could live without sex the rest of her life - I wish I knew that back then, not 4 years later after we bought a house together and were engaged.

Would it have changed my mind about her? I honestly don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But at least I would have had that information to go on in order to make the best decision for ME.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> AFAIK, my wife isn't repulsed by sex, but this thread is now making me question it. Maybe she is. Regardless, the fact that she has never been sexually attracted to anyone in her life, never had the urge for sex or to masturbate, never got (or gets) turned on by anything, external or otherwise, and could live without sex the rest of her life - I wish I knew that back then, not 4 years later after we bought a house together and were engaged.
> 
> Would it have changed my mind about her? I honestly don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But at least I would have had that information to go on in order to make the best decision for ME.


Alex in your case, I don't think your wife was self aware enough to have told you the truth. 

She may be now, if you and she were to break up (especially if it was over sex and you made it clear, and also if you told her things like the above) she may understand that she should not seek out a partner who is sexual while she feels asexual. She may see now that this will always just cause pain for her and her partners. But she still didn't really get that about herself when you two got together (the second time). 

When people are that far off from the middle of the bell curve in some area, they frequently just do their best to fit in to the world and behave as if they are not so far off from the middle. They pick up behaviors by watching others and emulate them. In your wife's case, she tried to emulate a sexual woman largely because this was simply expected of women in general and because "men expect sex"...this was the cultural narrative middle of the bell curve she then tried to emulate. 

It isn't that difficult for women to have sex that appears enthusiastic, if looking enthusiastic itself is their goal. So for her to emulate a sexual woman wasn't that difficult and it quickly just became part of her life. She didn't question it much (because being asexual, she really didn't get why people are so into sex, but also being asexual she simply didn't think about the matter much at all). She likely just accepted this is the way of the world and fit herself into it.

This does not mean she didn't enjoy sex and feel arousal. To her that was a separate matter which she kept privately to herself...but again, she didn't think about it too much because she is asexual. She thought "this is who I am, this is what I enjoy, I don't really enjoy this, this and this, but I have the sense that everyone around me is way more into sex than I am so I try to fit in, and now fitting in is part of who I am, too". Eventually, this was just her world view.

You have asked her to challenge her own world view, and I'm sure she has done that more with you than ever before.

But she could not have told you any of this when you met. She saw no issue with her world view nor with her sexuality or her desire to just fit in with the middle of the bell curve folks. She wanted to be with you and did what she felt "people do" when they get into a relationship together. In the sense that she was completely unaware of the toll her sexuality (later self identified as asexuality) would have on you, she did not lie or deceive you or coerce you or do a bait and switch. I'm sure she just loved you and acted as she wanted to, in those moments. The question of whether or not she was really into it or ever will be....is probably just too fuzzy to ever sort out. Even for her.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> New data. Last night I did a bunch of nice things for my wife in bed, but let her know that I really wasn't interested in her reciprocating. I said I was happy to please her, but trying to give me HJs was just getting her frustrated since I was so slow, and didn't do much for me. (I wasn't trying to be passive-aggressive, I just really didn't feel like another HJ).
> 
> She responded by trying to do much more for me including some oral (something that is normally extremely rare). I honestly told her that she didn't need to do that, that I knew she hated it - but this time she said she didn't mind.
> 
> ...


As to this...I think if you were willing to simply not accept any sex that isn't really awesome and good for you, and tell her this, you would get a lot more and better sex. She is showing you this above.

And I think you could gently deliver this message to her, and even though she may pout, you can go on being the loving Richard you are and just wait until she gets over it.

Highly likely that if you never again accepted a crappy hand job and made it clear that passionate sex is all you are willing to get an erection for...you will eventually get passionate sex.

You are obviously masturbating as you need and desire too, and that is good. Just focus your entire sexual life around your solo endeavors for now.

Enjoy your wife romping around in her lingerie. Some people are just nudists. They enjoy it for its own sake. Look at her body and fantasize about her when you MB. Fantasize about the things you'd love to do with her. Picture it and get deeply into it. (Fantasize about whatever else you want, too).

She may withdraw from you for awhile. Just ignore it and go on about your life, being loving to her as you always are. She will eventually either initiate a discussion about sex, or just initiate sex.

The first time, it still may not be the passionate sex you wanted. In this case, kiss her on the cheek and thank her for the great effort...tell her she is so very sexy, but that this or that doesn't work for you and you really only want good sex if any sex at all.

Then tell her you would be happy to just make out, if she wants. And if she does, enjoy it like teenagers in a car. Then don't let it go past a certain point, kiss her on the cheek and tell her you are tired, ready for bed, love you, night night.

Do this as many times as necessary until you get actual passionate sex.

Or....until you see that it will never be forthcoming. If that ends up being the case, you are no worse off than you are now, except you won't have to accept crappy HJ's.

Note: in a previous post I had said your only hope is to give up trying to change her. Please understand, the above advice is not going to change her. If it is successful, it will merely manipulate her into having sex with you because she will see that you will not accept crumbs anymore. 

She may actually get totally into it, though. That is the wild card here. It would seem from the quoted example, this is a possibility. Her feminine ego may have to rise to this challenge and in doing so, it might prove to be so pleasurable that she does actually shift in your direction some what.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I do agree, and I've almost completely stopped hoping for change. Every now and the though something happens that gives me irrational hope again - but I'm getting pretty good at quashing it. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Richard, I think the answer is that you have to accept what little sex you have, be happy with it, and stop hoping to change her. I think you would be so much happier.
> 
> If she were physically incapable of having sex, you know you wouldn't like it but you'd accept it and deal.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Things a couple of nights ago were surprising. I'd done some nice things for her - something I'm happy to do even if she doesn't reciprocate. She started the standard HJ again, and I told her I really was too tired, and we should just curl up together and nap. Then a bit later she said she wanted to do something for me, and when I said I was tired and it would take a long time, she started to do some oral. (this is REALLY rare). I actually told her to stop because I knew she hated it, but she said she didn't mind doing it.

OK, so it was lots of fun and she seemed very happy. (I ignore the little voice saying "great, problem solved"). 

I think though that she sees it as a trade. I gave her an O, so she has to give me one to be fair. (somehow O's are all that seem to count - no effort to reciprocate any other specific things I do). 

If I turn down anything other than oral, she will quickly strart to feel that I'm trying to manipulate her. She's in the past said "the only thing you like is the thing I don't like". (not really true, I like a wide range of things, but she dislikes all of them.

This still gets to the strange issue: She seems happy to do oral to get me off when she thinks she owes me - even though I've many times made it clear (and meant it) that its not a trade, she really doesn't have to take care of me. But, she is completely adverse to doing it if I ask, and has claimed it is gross and disgusting. 

Its as if she feels like the marriage "contract" means that she has to give me an O once a week, unless something more important comes up. That O can be delivered in the most efficient way possible. If I'm tired, she will do other things, but my asking for more than the minimum is my being unreasonable. 

I wonder what she would think If I just got her off in a couple of minutes each time with the vibrator, rather than spending lots of time doing other nice thigns. The risk of course is that maybe that is what she actually wants....

Again, mostly I'm just very curious, not expecting thigns to change.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

alexm said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> But that then begs the question - why marry? (or date, for that matter). I understand that one doesn't want to be alone (though we are seeing, in this thread, an almost overjoyment of being alone, if not at least an acceptance of it, when all is said and done).
> 
> If ones KNOWS this is the way they are, then why string somebody along, ostensibly for life? If you KNOW you simply can not provide for your spouse in this, or any other major way, then why put that upon them? (or yourself, for that matter).


When I was growing up, there was no word or concept for people like me. As a girl, I used to think that everyone was like me. When I got a little older, I realized they weren't. But I still believed in the transforming power of love; I hoped that true love would awaken that side of life for me, eventually...a very old-fashioned idea, but one reinforced by romantic movies, songs, and novels about love being the key to sexual awakening.

In short, we fell in love like everyone else and we were inseparable. We wanted to spend our lives together. Sex meant nothing to me, and we were both OK with that.



alexm said:


> Apples and oranges, but when my ex wife left me, she eventually told me she had fallen out of love with me YEARS earlier. She didn't want to 'hurt me'. The irony is that it hurt MORE, and ultimately it was selfish on her part, under the guise of being selfLESS towards me. What would have hurt me less, would have been to have those years back, which she essentially took from me.
> 
> I would feel the same way if my wife told me she felt the same way you or OpenMinded did about the subject - especially about it like being with a family member. Reading this thread makes me think there's a distinct possibility this IS how she feels about it, as much as I try to think not. I would be furious, TBH.


I was deeply in love with my husband and would do anything for him. All the sex that I had, I had for love. The hardest part of the divorce for me was turning off that love for him. But I had to do it to survive.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Richard do either, or both of you, have asbergers?


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

alexm said:


> Genuine question - did he know that you felt the way you described about sex, or did he simply think you had little to no desire? There's a big difference. Lack of desire, but a willingness and ability to take part, and even generally enjoy it (or at least not be repulsed by it) is a far cry from literally not wanting to have sex, at all, period, full stop.


First, my response to your brushing off the dangers associated with adultery. The dangers are all real, and they do happen to people and bring a lot of misery. Vasectomies fail. People get infected. Affair partners get crazy and do awful things. I can't live with those kind of risks. I'm something of a worrywart even without all of that.

Second, your question about whether he knew I felt the way I described about sex, or did he simply think I had little or no desire? I don't see any difference between the two. What I've described is what little or no desire feels like. I was willing and able to take part, for love. Doesn't that count for anything?



alexm said:


> I, too, would have been okay with the woman I loved being generally uninterested in sex, provided the rest of her was good or great. However, I would not have been okay with it if she were to tell me within the early days of our relationship that she was repulsed by sex and never wanted to do it.


I wouldn't say I was repulsed by sex. Just completely uninterested. I did tell him early on. We laughed about how he got so much out of sex and I got nothing. I didn't fake or pretend.



alexm said:


> It's my opinion, and it may be harsh but - if a person who is dating and otherwise looking for a relationship and eventually marriage, feels this way about sex and sexuality, it should be disclosed immediately. Not gradually. Not when you build up enough trust to drop this kind of thing, not after months or years of faking it - immediately. Like second date.
> 
> If this is how one is - it's perfectly okay. We are who we are, and there's no judgement (from me, at least). This isn't about HOW one feels about the subject, it's about disclosing unbelievably important information during the early stages of a relationship. The stage at which two people make decisions about whether each other is "the one", and if they want to spend their lives together.


As I tried to explain in an earlier response, I was young, and I had no way of knowing that the way I was at that age was the way I'd be forever. I thought my sexuality would just blossom somehow..eventually. Let me repeat that I never faked or pretended that I understood why people were so obsessed with sex. It was clear that other people experienced a lot of pleasure with sex. I still thought it might happen for me one day.



alexm said:


> AFAIK, my wife isn't repulsed by sex, but this thread is now making me question it. Maybe she is. Regardless, the fact that* she has never been sexually attracted to anyone in her life, never had the urge for sex or to masturbate, never got (or gets) turned on by anything, external or otherwise, and could live without sex the rest of her life* - I wish I knew that back then, not 4 years later after we bought a house together and were engaged.
> 
> Would it have changed my mind about her? I honestly don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But at least I would have had that information to go on in order to make the best decision for ME.


Wow, sexually speaking, your wife is just like me! When that's how you are, living that way is just normal to you. It's the people who are so obsessed with sex that seem bizarre.

I'm sorry your wife wasn't upfront with you. Maybe she thought that love and marriage would change her, over time, as I did.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> When people are that far off from the middle of the bell curve in some area, they frequently just do their best to fit in to the world and behave as if they are not so far off from the middle. They pick up behaviors by watching others and emulate them. In your wife's case, she tried to emulate a sexual woman largely because this was simply expected of women in general and because "men expect sex"...this was the cultural narrative middle of the bell curve she then tried to emulate.
> 
> It isn't that difficult for women to have sex that appears enthusiastic, if looking enthusiastic itself is their goal. So for her to emulate a sexual woman wasn't that difficult and it quickly just became part of her life. She didn't question it much (because being asexual, she really didn't get why people are so into sex, but also being asexual she simply didn't think about the matter much at all). She likely just accepted this is the way of the world and fit herself into it.


Wow, this description is great. This is basically how I saw the world as a girl. It's pretty easy to learn what's expected from women sexually by reading books, and you'd have to be pretty stupid not to realize what men want and why they're chasing after you. They want sex. That's the cultural narrative. So you comply to the best of your ability, to fit in with the world as you look for love.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

2020hindsight said:


> I was willing and able to take part, for love. Doesn't that count for anything?




Which of you initiated divorce?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Again sounds very familiar.
> As I'm sure you experienced, communication about sex is really difficult in this situation. There is so little common ground for discussion, your thoughts are just so different. Each sort of expecting that the other will change because the other's behavior makes so little sense.
> 
> Its really difficult to say "I don't like sex and never will". or "Even though I love you, I can't have a happy life without sex".
> ...


Sexual incompatibility is a tough road to travel for both spouses and I don't recommend staying together when the extremes are as severe as they were in my case. I didn't consider an open marriage (not something my religious upbringing would allow me to think about) although he solved that problem by cheating. Despite being anti-divorce in those days, I did suggest we end it after the first round of cheating but he was totally opposed to divorce. So for many decades we continued the dance where I felt like I was giving far too much and he felt like I wasn't giving nearly enough. The pressure was tremendous. Not a good way to live, obviously. 

Yes, communication about sex was very difficult and never productive long-term. It was like we were each speaking a foreign language the other didn't understand. That's why I don't hold much hope for the majority of couples with severe sexual incompatibility (especially when it's there from the beginning). Some manage to turn it around. Most don't. The gulf is usually just too wide.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

2020hindsight said:


> What you describe is the same as the sex life in my marriage. I provided sex on demand and drew no barriers in what sexual acts i would do. But I honestly would rather not have been doing any of it. It was all for him. With the best will in the world, that gets a bit dreary after a quarter century or so. I couldn't help but wonder why he wanted to do any of it, especially as we moved toward middle age.
> 
> I guess one of my illusions was that he'd probably get less interested in sex as he grew older.


Yes, I thought age would take a toll but that turned out not to be the case. Ill health did cause a slow-down but sex continued well into our 60's. 

I came from a very large extended family where females tolerated sex as a duty of marriage. I knew of no female in that time and place who enjoyed sex -- or at least would admit to it. Sex was for males and females were expected to put up with it. That was the lesson I absorbed from those years growing up. What was much more likely is there were females in my family who loved sex but that wasn't the cultural norm so they kept that to themselves.


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## peacem (Oct 25, 2014)

Openminded said:


> I came from a very large extended family where females tolerated sex as a duty of marriage. I knew of no female in that time and place who enjoyed sex -- or at least would admit to it. Sex was for males and females were expected to put up with it. That was the lesson I absorbed from those years growing up. What was much more likely is there were females in my family who loved sex but that wasn't the cultural norm so they kept that to themselves.


I thought this might be a generational attitude but you have reminded me of a woman I used to know. When talking about sex ed in schools she described how the only time her mother talked to her about sex was the night before her wedding referring to it as 'a duty'. She is probably about 50. 

Having a mother who never, ever talks about sex I did think better to be completely taboo than talked about it in a derogatory way to young women starting out in married life. 

If anyone from TAM could spend an afternoon with my MIL they would see a perfect example of how to **** someone up when it comes to sex. Firstly she is sex obsessed but at the same time finds it disgusting. She freely talks about 'bedroom cuddling' being totally offensive to her. If she sees a sex scene on TV rather than turning over, she writes to the TV channel to complain and tries to get others to do the same. She tried to ban her adult children from listening to radio 4 because she once *HEARD* a sex scene. Anyone who is not married is gay. Homosexuals are pedophiles. Women who wear red lipstick are prostitutes. Porn turns men into serial killers or rapists. This is the type of conversation she has over Sunday lunch. :scratchhead:

I made it my job to give my daughter a positive education in sex from a very young age. She comes home from her grandmas with her latest sex stories and thinks its hilarious :grin2:. Hopefully I have done a good job at protecting her from all that BS.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My ex-husband pushed for marriage. We had been friends for a couple of years when we began dating and I enjoyed being with him to the exclusion of everyone else but I was never madly in love with him (or anyone else) although I loved him. I don't even know what "madly in love" would be like. Obviously, I knew sex was necessary in marriage and I was prepared (or thought I was) to deal with that. However, I wasn't really prepared at all. I didn't grow up in a very affectionate family. Very few hugs and kisses. Arms length for the most part and I was comfortable with that from childhood on. 

The intimacy necessary for sex always felt like an invasion of my personal space. I had to prepare myself mentally each time. I never got used to it. To actually crave that intimacy is something I can't begin to understand no matter how hard I try. That's why people like me shouldn't be married. Fifty years ago I thought I could somehow manage to make it work. But I couldn't.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

peacem said:


> I thought this might be a generational attitude but you have reminded me of a woman I used to know. When talking about sex ed in schools she described how the only time her mother talked to her about sex was the night before her wedding referring to it as 'a duty'. She is probably about 50.
> 
> Having a mother who never, ever talks about sex I did think better to be completely taboo than talked about it in a derogatory way to young women starting out in married life.
> 
> ...


Yes, in my case the generational thing has no doubt contributed to who I am. Duty sex. All those lessons run very deep. 

And I've known more than one woman very similar to your MIL. They do exist. Unfortunately.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> This still gets to the strange issue: She seems happy to do oral to get me off when she thinks she owes me - even though I've many times made it clear (and meant it) that its not a trade, she really doesn't have to take care of me. But, she is completely adverse to doing it if I ask, and has claimed it is gross and disgusting.


My wife is the exact same way about oral sex. She (claims to) hate it, yet does it as part of foreplay about 80% of the time. In the last month alone, I've received 2 BJ's to completion, which is more than I'd received in the entire past calendar year. The ruminator (thanks FW!) in me says that it was _instead_ of sex, which is where I had thought both encounters were headed. Each time, I told her I wanted to be inside her, yet she mumbled "nuh-uh" and kept going, quite enthusiastically, so I just went with it. Worth noting that each of those occasions, she had had an O prior to mine, so it wasn't one-sided.

So it's clear to me that my wife, in no way, shape or form, wants me to ask, hint or otherwise assume a BJ will occur at any time, including as foreplay. In the beginning of our relationship I made the rookie mistake of changing my body position during foreplay (as in moving my penis towards her mouth...) and it was not appreciated. I didn't know - up to that point, BJ's were consistently part of foreplay, so I made the assumption that this move was okay. For some people it is. I have no problem if a woman steers me in that direction.

So it's likely a control thing (there's that word again). Not once in ~8 years have I ever felt like my wife was hating giving me a BJ while doing so. Not once have I actually asked for one (hinted, yes - see above, but not out of the blue). But she's made it very clear, verbally, that she does not like doing it. It took her ~4 years to say this, and it was during an entirely different discussion. Why tell me this at all? Especially if you continue to do it, and do it seemingly enthusiastically (regardless of whether it's fake enthusiasm or not)? I mean, on one hand I appreciate the effort, if there really IS one. On the other, ruining the illusion that it's mutual (which I strongly believe oral sex is, but that's another discussion).

It all comes down to control, as it usually does with many, many people. In my example, she's happy to do it, provided I know that it's not something she wants to be doing. She's being a martyr. Look at me, doing this thing I hate for YOUR benefit.

I have a love/hate relationship with sex, which is a weird statement to make, but it's true. People complicate it SO much, when it's actually really very simple, IMO. This thread alone has proven that people complicate this subject to an un-ending degree. Having sex with the person you love is not complicated, and shouldn't BE complicated. It's such a base part of humans, and it's instinctual. You kiss, you hug, you hold hands, you have sex. All of those feel good, and make each other feel wanted, needed, desired - LOVED, and bring two people closer than is humanly possible. The rush of hormones during an encounter, never mind during an actual orgasm, is like a drug, literally. It just feels good, all around - provided you LET it. Yet there's this constant complication around it for so many - including myself.

Sometimes you just have to let go of the negative thought patterns. For me, worrying about whether my wife gave me oral to completion in order to avoid intercourse. Not my problem, and I have to remind myself of that. She wouldn't have done it if she wasn't receiving something in return, ie. my enjoyment.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Alex in your case, I don't think your wife was self aware enough to have told you the truth.
> 
> She may be now, if you and she were to break up (especially if it was over sex and you made it clear, and also if you told her things like the above) she may understand that she should not seek out a partner who is sexual while she feels asexual. She may see now that this will always just cause pain for her and her partners. But she still didn't really get that about herself when you two got together (the second time).
> 
> ...


I believe you're quite right about her not fully knowing herself at the time, however she does fully admit that she felt different, as far back as her teenage years. Even her vague descriptions of how she was with her most immediate ex should have rang alarm bells (in both of us). She had told me once that the last 14 or so months she was with him, they had sex once. At the time she told me this, she pointed to the fact that she simply didn't want to for a variety of reasons (newborn baby, his not helping at all, his expectations of sex, he was a 2-pump chump, his accusations of her getting it elsewhere starting a month after having the baby. Basically, he turned into an all-around a-hole).

What I failed to see at the time she told me this, was that she was fully capable of going over a year without sex, period, and didn't miss it, or particularly care. She had also said that there were other similar long stretches in her life in which she didn't have sex (or even masturbate) at all. 6 months here, another year there, etc. Times she chose to be single and focus on work and/or herself. Not abnormal, but at the same time, not quite normal, either.

To clarify, what I'd be upset about is if she only fully realized the scope of this while she was with me. 20-ish years of being sexually active, numerous boyfriends, two other LTR's, children, etc. And it took being married to me to admit to herself that she didn't like sex.

That said, I've had rather bad luck with previous relationships... One woman I dated briefly when I was 19 or so, I was her last BOYfriend. My ex wife lived a lie for almost 14 years with me (not being attracted to me).

So to me, this would be similar. Living a lie, and otherwise 'faking it' because I'm a good guy, stable, loving, blah blah blah. Worth the charade for all of those reasons, but for how long? My ex wife made it sound like she was a f***ing martyr for giving up her physical attraction pre-requisites for me. She had a type, and I wasn't it, but I checked all the other boxes that her 'type' hadn't. (until she met a guy who WAS her type AND checked those other boxes). That girl I dated gave it one last try before admitting she liked women. And maybe my wife will wake up one day and realize she can't do this any more, either. Maybe she'll meet somebody at some point who feels the same way she does about sex, and there you go. No more having to deal with these 'pressures' of doing something you don't want to do.

What wouldn't make sense to me is that she would have had ample opportunity to get to know herself (particularly during those long stretches of being single and having no sex whatsoever). I wouldn't expect my spouse to FULLY know themselves (we're always learning), but with something like this - yes. Don't use me as the litmus test, please. I've already been the human guinea pig - twice.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Loving and being loved shouldn't be this hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

bandit.45 said:


> Loving and being loved shouldn't be this hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


QFT.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Loving and being loved shouldn't be this hard.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In theory it shouldn't be but for many (maybe most) of us it unfortunately is. Things gets complicated because obviously you're dealing with two people who have their own ideas about how life should go -- especially involving sex. The lesson I learned about marriage was that love was no guarantee of success in any area -- and definitely not regarding sex. I think there's just too much emotion involved -- on many levels -- for it to be easy. For a few, maybe. For the rest, no. Sadly.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Which of you initiated divorce?


He did. So I guess what we had wasn't enough in the end.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Good question 
I don't think I do - (or would I know?). I'm quite empathic, and think I can pick up non-verbal clues pretty well.

My wife is not good with non-verbal / social clues. Not nearly as severe as what you would consider Asbergers, but a slight tendency in that direction.

We do have a friend with Asbergers so I'm familiar with the behaviors.



WorkingOnMe said:


> Richard do either, or both of you, have asbergers?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This really might make a good thread in ladies lounge. Its an important discussion and many people won't see it because it started out being about my personal issues. (I'm completely happy for the thread to go the way it has, I just think somewhere more visible might be better)



2020hindsight said:


> Wow, this description is great. This is basically how I saw the world as a girl. It's pretty easy to learn what's expected from women sexually by reading books, and you'd have to be pretty stupid not to realize what men want and why they're chasing after you. They want sex. That's the cultural narrative. So you comply to the best of your ability, to fit in with the world as you look for love.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, that was very generous of you - he may never have really understood what you were doing for him. 



2020hindsight said:


> snip
> I was willing and able to take part, for love. Doesn't that count for anything?
> snip
> .


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I agree that there are dangers of misery from open marriages - but these extreme cases of HD/LD mismatch are pretty miserable too. If precautions are taken, I don't know that the risks are really so bad. It seems like it would go a long way towards reducing the stress on both people in a mismatch. 



2020hindsight said:


> First, my response to your brushing off the dangers associated with adultery. The dangers are all real, and they do happen to people and bring a lot of misery. Vasectomies fail. People get infected. Affair partners get crazy and do awful things. I can't live with those kind of risks. I'm something of a worrywart even without all of that.
> /QUOTE]


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> If she were physically incapable of having sex, you know you wouldn't like it but you'd accept it and deal.
> 
> To me, this is basically the same.


A little late quoting this, but...

Being physically incapable of having sex and not wanting sex are far different. Yes, I think the majority of guys who had a wife INCAPABLE of having sex would understand and accept the situation.

But in this thread we see a woman who (a) is physically capable and (b) has enjoyed sex in the past and that is the frustrating part. If you have a spouse CAPABLE of having sex, then you get frustrated when that spouse refuses to have sex with you. And it builds resentment.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

uhtred said:


> This really might make a good thread in ladies lounge. Its an important discussion and many people won't see it because it started out being about my personal issues. (I'm completely happy for the thread to go the way it has, I just think somewhere more visible might be better)


There is something I can't quite articulate about this. You have said twice now this thread/discussion should be in TLL but the reality is that you are a huge part of the problem in your marriage. You have chosen to stay put where you are even though you are unhappy, discontent.

You are being treated how you allow yourself to be treated, BTDT. You say your wife wants you to be happy in all other areas of life but the reality is that a partner that truly cares doesn't prance around in lingerie and then turn you down for sex, it is just wrong but you are happy to live like this. Seems quite a self depreciating way to live.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > If she were physically incapable of having sex, you know you wouldn't like it but you'd accept it and deal.
> ...


Yes I agree. However, the OP has stated several times that he will never divorce her.

So with this in mind, his only hope of not living in further constant frustration and resentment for the rest of his life is to accept this situation and stop trying to change her. 

As long as he is still hopeful that she can or will change, he will be unhappy and frustrated. If he can accept her and his sex life as they are today, he may find some peace in it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This thread was started about my particular situation. From the discussion though it appears that there are a fair number of women (and maybe men?) who are not interested in sex, who do not feel sexual desire the way typical women do. I've also gotten the impression that some of these women have gotten negative responses when they tried to discuss this.

If so, then a discussion on that topic might be useful. This may be more common than many people realize. It clearly has a major effect on relationships. 


For my personal situation, life is a trade. I am happy about most things, unhappy about my sex life. My wife clearly does not have typical thoughts / behaviors regarding sex and does not see herself as being unusual. I have made the conscious choice that the life I have is better than the life I would likely have with someone else. That doesn't mean that I am happy with my sex life, but I have accepted it. I still discuss partly to let off steam, but also because sometimes I learn things. The comments from other women here with a low natural interest in sex have been very helpful in my seeing this from a different perspective. 





MrsHolland said:


> There is something I can't quite articulate about this. You have said twice now this thread/discussion should be in TLL but the reality is that you are a huge part of the problem in your marriage. You have chosen to stay put where you are even though you are unhappy, discontent.
> 
> You are being treated how you allow yourself to be treated, BTDT. You say your wife wants you to be happy in all other areas of life but the reality is that a partner that truly cares doesn't prance around in lingerie and then turn you down for sex, it is just wrong but you are happy to live like this. Seems quite a self depreciating way to live.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> This thread was started about my particular situation. From the discussion though it appears that there are a fair number of women (and maybe men?) who are not interested in sex, who do not feel sexual desire the way typical women do. I've also gotten the impression that some of these women have gotten negative responses when they tried to discuss this.
> 
> If so, then a discussion on that topic might be useful. This may be more common than many people realize. It clearly has a major effect on relationships.
> 
> ...


Answer three questions for me: 

1) Do you think your wife loves you as a lover? Not just as a partner and husband...

2) If your wife decided to get off her ass and go and get her fibroid tumors (or whatever the hell they are) taken care of, and could eventually have enjoyable sex with you, would she have the amount of sex with you that you want? 

3) If you answered "no" to the first two questions, would you still want to remain married to her?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

1). No. I don't think she is capable of having someone as a lover, not in the passionate physical sense.

2). No. I don't blame her at all for not fixing the fibroids. Her issues with sex started long before she had them, so, no she would not have as much sex as I want. 

3). Yes. A decision I've already made. Sex is important, but its not everything. 
I have a wife who jumped off a cliff in the Alps to go parasailing with me. Who led me to the almost unknown last ruins of the Minoan civilization high on a mountain side in Crete. Who thinks a thunderstorm on a south pacific island is fun. Who knows the difference between deflagration and detonation. Who is happy sitting on the sofa with me watching Spartacus or Shaun the sheep. Who trusts me to take a multi-week vacation with friends, including a woman that she knows is a close friend.






bandit.45 said:


> Answer three questions for me:
> 
> 1) Do you think your wife loves you as a lover? Not just as a partner and husband...
> 
> ...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I have a wife who jumped off a cliff in the Alps to go parasailing with me. Who led me to the almost unknown last ruins of the Minoan civilization high on a mountain side in Crete. Who thinks a thunderstorm on a south pacific island is fun. Who knows the difference between deflagration and detonation. Who is happy sitting on the sofa with me watching Spartacus or Shaun the sheep. Who trusts me to take a multi-week vacation with friends, including a woman that she knows is a close friend.


Well, if all of that is worth more to you than busting a nut once a week, more power to you. :smthumbup:


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## sixty-eight (Oct 2, 2015)

uhtred said:


> snip
> I have a wife who jumped off a cliff in the Alps to go parasailing with me. Who led me to the almost unknown last ruins of the Minoan civilization high on a mountain side in Crete. Who thinks a thunderstorm on a south pacific island is fun. Who knows the difference between deflagration and detonation. Who is happy sitting on the sofa with me watching Spartacus or Shaun the sheep. Who trusts me to take a multi-week vacation with friends, including a woman that she knows is a close friend.


I love what you said about her here. I think it's beautiful the companionship you two have, and it's somewhat sad that the two of you are mismatched in just one large way.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Maybe I missed it, but have you asked her about an open marriage?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

We have friends in an openly open marriage so the topic came up once, I didn't need to suggest. My wife made it very clear that she thought that was a terrible idea for anyone.

Remember, she thinks we have a normal / good sex life and so there would be no reason for me to want someone else. 





Chris Taylor said:


> Maybe I missed it, but have you asked her about an open marriage?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uhtred,
Having a partner who is a truly spectacular companion - is a rare and beautiful gift. 

I recognize that subtext in your writing as it permeates my own. U2 knows that you aren't really ok with that part of the marriage. 

It simply isn't easy to have sex - when you don't really want to. 

The biggest difference in our situations is that I simply wouldn't tolerate having a partner who exercised absolute control over frequency. 

Just to be clear on that. From what you describe, sex ONLY happens when she initiates. When you initiate - she says no. 

M2 is both strong willed and she like U2 is sort of accustomed to the Platinum service level. This is the only area where she is careful with me. 

I wouldn't do the open - messy affairs - sneaking around stuff. But she does know that I would get full body massage plus happy ending if we deadlocked over sex.

This is not something I hold over her head - in the day to day. That would be sadistic. Which I am not. 







uhtred said:


> 1). No. I don't think she is capable of having someone as a lover, not in the passionate physical sense.
> 
> 2). No. I don't blame her at all for not fixing the fibroids. Her issues with sex started long before she had them, so, no she would not have as much sex as I want.
> 
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> But she does know that I would get full body massage plus happy ending if we deadlocked over sex.


MEM, how many "withholding spouses" do you think would be prepared to accept this? 10%, 1%, one in fifty thousand? I suspect in most cases the difference in the end result between this and having an affair is absolutely nothing.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

There's a massive difference. Massive. 

Normal affairs are ugly because they are:
- Deceitful
- Could cause emotional entanglements which disrupt/end the marriage
- Could cause social humiliation for your spouse if your affair partner goes public 
- Could cause financial distress if your affair partner gets pregnant hits you with a paternity suit

The real conversation is: I'm not going to leave YOU, over a lack of sex. But if you choose to leave ME over doing something with others you refuse to do with me - that's your choice. 

But I would say that any spouse who refuses sex, and leaves over this type outsourcing loves themself WAY WAY WAY more than they love their partner. 





Sawney Beane said:


> MEM, how many "withholding spouses" do you think would be prepared to accept this? 10%, 1%, one in fifty thousand? I suspect in most cases the difference in the end result between this and having an affair is absolutely nothing.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Remember, she thinks we have a normal / *good sex life* and so there would be no reason for me to want someone else.


In the Absence of disabusing that notion (from your perspective), she has no reason to think otherwise.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is not an easy thing. At some level she knows. 

It is also true that it is very difficult for anyone to determine how much this is U2 taking advantage of Uhtred's good and giving nature - and how much is that she really doesn't much like sex. 

The paid for happy ending scenario is very interesting. Because the truth is - you've now basically eliminated the risks - and all that is left are issues of pride and control. 

And my wise friend Sawney has pointed out those are BIG things. Pride and control. 

Big things. 

At some level - U2's reaction to that would be: All the stuff I do to show you I love you just isn't enough. 

The ONLY play you can run in that situation is: This is ALL about you. Don't want you to do anything you don't want to do. This is just a work around. 






Personal said:


> In the Absence of disabusing that notion (from your perspective), she has no reason to think otherwise.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It has proven impossible to disabuse her of that notion (yes I have tried). She believes that *I'm* unhappy, but that is because I have very unrealistic ideas of what a normal sex life is like. I don't know where she got her idea of a normal sex life but she is absolutely sure. Having had her pass on a comment or two from her mother, I think she was brought up to believe that sex is something that women have to occasionally do for men, but should try to avoid whenever possible. Ideas like that can linger late into life. 








Personal said:


> In the Absence of disabusing that notion (from your perspective), she has no reason to think otherwise.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Different people so the situations are somewhat different. 
U2 thinks that my desire for more, and more varied sex is wrong. So, suggesting that I would get it somewhere else is would seem totally wrong. Can't you just imagine the response "so that's all I am to you, a replacement for a *****...".

Besides, a HJ from a prostitute is really not on my list of attractive options. 

I understand that the implied threat would work on some people. For U2 though she is very likely to react in the opposite direction. 




MEM2020 said:


> Uhtred,
> snip
> 
> M2 is both strong willed and she like U2 is sort of accustomed to the Platinum service level. This is the only area where she is careful with me.
> ...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Those ideas not only linger, they very often never go away. She doesn't want them to. She wants to feel in the right -- obviously.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

We do agree on one thing. You have a window of time early in any relationship to address mindset issues. 

You are decades past that point. 

No question she loves you. No question she loves herself more. If get that. M2 is the same. You get used to your partner. I am fairly sure M2 does controlling jealous stuff that you wouldn't tolerate near as well as I do. 





uhtred said:


> It has proven impossible to disabuse her of that notion (yes I have tried). She believes that *I'm* unhappy, but that is because I have very unrealistic ideas of what a normal sex life is like. I don't know where she got her idea of a normal sex life but she is absolutely sure. Having had her pass on a comment or two from her mother, I think she was brought up to believe that sex is something that women have to occasionally do for men, but should try to avoid whenever possible. Ideas like that can linger late into life.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> No question she loves you. No question she loves herself more. If get that. M2 is the same. You get used to your partner. I am fairly sure M2 does controlling jealous stuff that you wouldn't tolerate near as well as I do.


This is often a major caveat when entering a relationship with somebody who has been heartbroken before, or otherwise has been in bad relationships and hurt (or in some cases, simply brought up this way).

I can tell you my wife is very much like this. On one hand, I completely understand it. On the other, I truly don't.

She's been hurt and heartbroken, as well as used in the past, so it's easy to see how one 'evolves' into looking after themselves first, partner second. I find it sad, really, because all indications point to the fact that my wife was once a loving and giving partner in the past - with people who took advantage. By the time I came a long - a guy who would not take advantage of her, or otherwise take her for granted - it was too late. The protective walls were up. Some have come down, slowly, but others will always stand.

The problem is that the relationship is somewhat stunted in areas. It's not what I'M missing out on, it's that she's incapable of giving herself completely to me.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Admittedly, this thread is triggery for me, so I am going to make this last post and I will be bowing out as to avoid posting things that would be counterproductive.

Richard, your wife knows exactly what she is doing. She is not doing so nefariously, but there is an element of selfishness that you seem singularly unwilling to acknowledge. Why? Because you have this woman on a pedestal. As long as you continue to keep her on said pedestal, nothing will change. 

She is doing this because you are allowing it. The solution would be simple, and would likely be effective given how much is sounds like she loves your company. However, it will require that you cause her discomfort. Not leave, not be mean, just...less giving. I truly don't think it would take much of that to get her attention. 

I truly wish you luck, brother.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't know. 

Is she simply selfish? It fits the pattern, she gets what she wants, does as little as she can. OTOH, her behavior matches some of the non-sexual women who have posted on this thread about how sex just doesn't "work" for them - its not something that they ever desire. 

Is her lack of sex simply a choice, or is it like a physical disability, something that she simply cannot change and that it is unreasonable for me to object to?

Is she a good person, or have I put her on a pedestal because I don't want to admit to myself that I've dedicated most of my life to making someone undeserving happy? 


Your "simple" solution doesn't work - I've tried that. In 30 years I've tried a lot, including limiting affection, etc in response to her limiting sex. It doesn't change things. Is it because she really doesn't understand the issue, or because she is just stubborn and knows she will "win" in the end? 

The only thing that has ever worked was when years ago I got to the point where I was planning to leave, started to tell her, and our sex life suddenly improved tremendously - but it didn't last. 

A threat to leave might work, but I won't do that. Also, as I've said, I don't want sex under threat - misses the entire point of being desired. Same reason I have no interest in escorts - what is the appeal of a woman who has to be paid to want to touch you?

Before the obvious answer - I'm fully aware that the situation is not going to change because I'm not willing to "make" it change. Doing that would make things overall worse than they are now. 





farsidejunky said:


> Admittedly, this thread is triggery for me, so I am going to make this last post and I will be bowing out as to avoid posting things that would be counterproductive.
> 
> Richard, your wife knows exactly what she is doing. She is not doing so nefariously, but there is an element of selfishness that you seem singularly unwilling to acknowledge. Why? Because you have this woman on a pedestal. As long as you continue to keep her on said pedestal, nothing will change.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

uhtred

I do think you shy away from really direct questions and that doesn't help you. 

Like: 
Why are you consistently dressing in a provocative manner?

It ought to be a even toned open ended question. Maybe she was hoping it would put HER in the mood. 

But either way - the avoidance of direct comms is hurting you. 

Including direct statements: 
It is not nice that you pretend to be clueless about sex. I don't like it. 








uhtred said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Is she simply selfish? It fits the pattern, she gets what she wants, does as little as she can. OTOH, her behavior matches some of the non-sexual women who have posted on this thread about how sex just doesn't "work" for them - its not something that they ever desire.
> 
> ...


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

uhtred said:


> She wants sexual activity infrequently, maybe every couple of weeks. When we have sex, she generally seems to enjoy it, seems to O (and claims to), and claims to have enjoyed it afterwards.


Interesting that you question her claims, I mean after so many years together, I am with my husband less than a decade and just started experiencing Os together with him, he can tell the difference between the intensity based upon my involuntary movements. 

Is there any hidden lack of comfortability or trust here I wonder? 



> We long ago added toys to are sex life, and she now essentially always wants to have an O with a vibrator. I can give her an O by oral, but it takes a long time and she prefers quicker. I've offered her stand-alone Os, but she has only accepted once in 25 years.


Were you ever resentful over her use with the vibrator? 
What about offering to combine the use of both? It can lead to multiple O's for her. 




> Occasionally (few x / year) she really wants PIV, but it makes her sore. There is one position that sometimes works for her, but is very awkward for me. I do it as long as I can.


It is likely that she can sense your feeling of awkwardness, which could lead to embarrassment for her. 
Do you become awkward because it's a painful position for your body or an emotional awkwardness? 



> She used to give me BJs on my birthday. When I asked if she would do them more often she told me no, she thought they were horrible and abusive.


Any abuse in her past? 



> Now that PIV is almost always out, no BJs, all she can do is give me HJs. The problem is that quite frankly she isn't very good, and won't take any gentle suggestions or requests to change things. She then complains that I'm very slow to finish and her arm gets tired.


Interesting, both of you could have negative emotions here, it could be displayed non verbally (that you're annoyed) without you realising, she could take your suggestions as to be critical and then doesn't want to participate anymore. 



> Every once in a while I can get her to try something new for me, she will say it was fun, but then never do it again (even if I ask). Back to the same HJs. (??) I am always willing and eager to do anything she wants in bed, and do my best to guess what she wants since she rarely says.


Again, you are questioning whether she enjoys herself, so she's either faking it or just tried it and it's not for her. 
Clear communication would have solved this, how is both of your communication regarding sex, is it clear, honest and concise or do either of you skirt around issues? 



> She rarely wants sex but every evening wears sexy lingerie around the house and appreciates my telling her how attractive she is in it, and appreciates hugs, kisses, etc. Recently she has been wearing the especially enticing stuff that normally implied an interest in sex that night, and has said we should get bed after dinner, but almost every time has been too tired when it was time. (??)


I find sexy lingerie uncomfortable to wear for normal use and only use it to entice my husband for sex, but yes it does give you a sexy boost if you received compliments, I'm wondering if she's seeking validation from you. 



> So: why complain that I'm slow to finish, but not want to do things she has previously said were fun that work better for me?
> 
> How can BJs be OK on my birthday, but absolutely disgusting and abusive at other times?
> 
> Why claim to, and appear to greatly enjoy sex, but always find excuses not to do so?


You have to sort out your communication. It's imperative. 



> (and no, she won't answer these questions, or answers with a specific reason for a specific thing, not the general answer)


Start by asking about MC for your communication issues, honestly when it comes to sex in marriage, you need to know where you stand, so then you can accept things and move on, otherwise it's forever questioning her motives. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What is confusing is that she gives every impression of usually REALLY enjoying sex when it happens, and claims to have really enjoyed it. Yet she rarely wants it. I have a difficult time understanding this combination.

I got her the vibrator and we use it during sex, or more precisely I use it on her during sex. I can give her an O other ways, but it takes a long time and she prefers me to get her off with the vibrator. I have no issues with it at all. 

The position she likes (lying flat facdedown on the bed) is good for her because it leads to very shallow penetration - and sometimes good g-spot stimulation. I usually use a vibrator on her at the same time. I'm happy to do it, but its a little akward and that combined with the shallow penetration makes it difficult to keep an erection. (I am in my 50s, things don't always work as well as they did when I was 20). Other than that physical issue, I enjoy it because she enjoys it so much,

She has never hinted at abuse in the past, but its possible. 

I think she is seeking validation from the sexy clothes. I'm happy with that, it just seems odd to want to wear really sexy stuff, but not want sex. Validation is probably it. 

Communication is difficult. I accept part of the responsibility for this. I was brought up to believe that sex was bad / evil. I don't think that anymore, but the remains of that make me very sensitive to rejection, especially the "why would you want that?" or other rejection that implies that I'm unreasonable in my sexual interests. 






MrsAldi said:


> Interesting that you question her claims, I mean after so many years together, I am with my husband less than a decade and just started experiencing Os together with him, he can tell the difference between the intensity based upon my involuntary movements.
> 
> Is there any hidden lack of comfortability or trust here I wonder?
> 
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM2020 said:


> There's a massive difference. Massive.
> 
> Normal affairs are ugly because they are:
> - Deceitful
> ...


MEM, I think the difference is between the message you send and the one received. The message you send is "If it isn't important, you won't mind".

The one received is rather different. I suspect what most people would hear in that situation is
"MEM, I have here a wooden fencepost. I could hit you in the face with it, or hit you in the testicles with it. I've decided to hit you in the testicles because I think that has less impact and less side potentially negative side effects".

You are not going to be pleased that I'm being so considerate, you're going to be incensed that I think hitting you anywhere with a lump of wood is an acceptable thing to do. The chances are the other person doesn't feel that you committing adultery on a commercial basis is "better" than doing it ad-lib. Like in the analogy with the fencepost, it's being hit that's the issue, not where or how.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@uhtred: Sounds to me that there was either (or maybe both) sexual abuse in her past or very strong FOO upbringing that sex is bad and wrong and evil and to be avoided. Very hard to reprogram your wife to eliminate these thoughts and feelings, and she has to want it for herself. So far she shows no interest in undergoing the difficult and uncomfortable process.

If you were going to destabilize the relationship, I would not ask for sex as a condition of staying. I would ask for her to seek counselling on why she thinks sex is bad and wrong and evil, and why she thinks your sex life is normal and acceptable. In the meantime, I would try to find a sex therapist whose views line up with yours (that what is bad and wrong is for a married couple to have infrequent and limited repertoire sex when one of them wants more frequent and more varied sessions). I think, if there is any hope of progress (which I tend to doubt - but that is me), that you will make more gains asking her to work on her mental state than by asking her for sex.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> I don't know.
> 
> Is she simply selfish? It fits the pattern, she gets what she wants, does as little as she can. OTOH, her behavior matches some of the non-sexual women who have posted on this thread about how sex just doesn't "work" for them - its not something that they ever desire.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's selfishness. Absolutely. No question.

The bolded part above more or less proves this.

I face the same things in my marriage - when I speak up, things change, but only for a short while. I get through to my wife, she seems to understand, then falls back into the same-old, same-old. Despite the fact that our relationship is better during these periods, and BOTH of us are happier. Happy wife, happy life. Same thing for husbands.

But as far as selfishness goes, yes, there's no other reason for it. Marriages work because both partners provide for each other's needs, and many of those needs are not necessarily our own. We don't do these things begrudgingly or reluctantly or with any sort of resentment - because we love our partners and want to make them happy as best we can. A good partner does these things with a smile on their face, because it's for the person we love, and therefore it benefits us, as well.

In some cases, the person feels that one or two of these needs are above and beyond the scope of a normal relationship, or (when it comes to sex) x-amount of times per month is sufficient. I've used this analogy here before - my wife likes it when I hold her hand. Imagine what she would think (what ANYone would think) if I refused to hold her hand every now and again, and said "I held your hand last week" or "All you ever want to do is hold my hand" or "That's all you want me for".

It's ludicrous when you think of it that way, but that's how some people feel about sex. I am not a hand-holder. I'm just not. I don't hate doing it, but I get nothing out of it, and I never think "Gee, I'd REALLY love to hold her hand right now!". But I know SHE likes it, requires it from me, gets something out of it, and likes it when I do it - so I freakin' do it, without her asking.

Now, the people who think that's a silly analogy - I get it. Apples and oranges. But is it really? Is it really so difficult to have sex with the person you love and who loves you back? Is it really that difficult to take 5, 10, 20 minutes out of your day, twice a week? To do something with, and for, your partner?

For those rare few who get nothing out of sex, then yes, it IS selfish. Because what you get out of it is a happy partner who feels loved and cared for and thought about.

And isn't that the entire freakin' point of marriage? Or is it solely about you?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

There is a lot of tip toeing around this. Yes her behaviour is selfish, yes she may well love and value herself and her own happiness well above the OP's. That is all bad but is forgivable and understandable.

The part that is so hard to read about is the wearing lingerie around the house. It comes across as a very mean thing to do. Being mean to your partner is just not on. You can love yourself more, you can be a LD person but when it stoops down to being a mean person that should be a bar too low to live with.

OP you have stated she is an intelligent women, she must understand what she is doing is nasty. To me it seems she views you as a very weak man, she knows you will just plod along with her unacceptable behaviour and do nothing about it. 

If you loved yourself as much as she loves herself then things might get better. As it stands you have over valued her and under valued yourself.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> What is confusing is that she gives every impression of usually REALLY enjoying sex when it happens, and claims to have really enjoyed it. Yet she rarely wants it. I have a difficult time understanding this combination.
> 
> I got her the vibrator and we use it during sex, or more precisely I use it on her during sex. I can give her an O other ways, but it takes a long time and she prefers me to get her off with the vibrator. I have no issues with it at all.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely not an expert on this subject (other than being similar to her in some ways) but it's very possible to enjoy some/all aspects of sex in the moment (only) and yet rarely or never want it. I had zero desire for sex but I could (and did) reliably orgasm. I looked at that as just something that my body was capable of in the moment. Sort of an involuntary response with no emotional component to it or desire on my part to even have one -- except that my husband expected me to. And I had absolutely no interest in that until the next time I needed to produce that response. 

A key difference between your wife and me is that I generally did whatever it was my husband wanted, when he wanted, without questioning him as to why he might want whatever it was. I might have thought it was all tiresome but I didn't consider it unreasonable for a normal person to want what he wanted. I knew I wasn't normal. Apparently, your wife thinks she is.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

First off, I'm not claiming this strategy is a magic wand. 

It merely creates some balance. 

So let's look at life in the MEM binary star system. M2 has - created a massive gravitational field - through a mix of nature and nurture. I've never come close achieving escape velocity. Not even halfway there. So I'm in a hyper stable orbit for good or bad (mostly bit not always very good). 

I can't leave her because I am unable to leave her. 

But and it is a gigantic but - that doesn't mean I'm incapable of independent action. And I am capable of doing what needs being done even if there is some chance SHE MIGHT LEAVE ME. Might escape my orbit. 

And that's ultimately the entire difference between a marriage like mine, where the power dynamic is decidedly skewed in favor of your partner, and a marriage where you get totally pancaked. 






Sawney Beane said:


> MEM, I think the difference is between the message you send and the one received. The message you send is "If it isn't important, you won't mind".
> 
> The one received is rather different. I suspect what most people would hear in that situation is
> "MEM, I have here a wooden fencepost. I could hit you in the face with it, or hit you in the testicles with it. I've decided to hit you in the testicles because I think that has less impact and less side potentially negative side effects".
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,

So let's talk about what this really is. Really is. Not what it might 'look' like or how someone might 'claim' to perceive this. 

This - outsourcing theme has nothing to do with fairness. Nothing. Because at the boundary condition it's laughable. Said boundary being - your spouse has completely shut down sex and has signaled non verbally it ain't ever coming back. 

And yet that same spouse has now begun to wage total war against you for telling them you plan to outsource in a low risk manner. 

That my man has nothing remotely to do with fairness. That is solely about power. About control. About selfishness. 

So when someone chooses to characterize, or more precisely mischaracterize something I am doing FOR me, as something I am doing TO them, I just shrug my shoulders and say: You can demonstrate that you consider sex utterly unimportant - by shutting it down. But if you then turn around and claim it is actually very important, enough to end the marriage over - then all I can suggest is that you seek hypocrisy therapy. 

In all sexless marriages, the refuser has managed to pull off the ultimate optical illusion in which: Chronic sexual rejection is at MOST a misdemeanor, and outsourcing of ANY type is a capitol offense. 

Or the refused is not only unwilling to leave (as I would be), but unwilling to do anything that MIGHT cause their partner to leave them. 





Sawney Beane said:


> MEM, I think the difference is between the message you send and the one received. The message you send is "If it isn't important, you won't mind".
> 
> The one received is rather different. I suspect what most people would hear in that situation is
> "MEM, I have here a wooden fencepost. I could hit you in the face with it, or hit you in the testicles with it. I've decided to hit you in the testicles because I think that has less impact and less side potentially negative side effects".
> ...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

This if friggin depressing....


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Communication is difficult. I accept part of the responsibility for this. I was brought up to believe that sex was bad / evil. *I don't think that anymore, but the remains of that make me very sensitive to rejection, especially the "why would you want that?" or other rejection that implies that I'm unreasonable in my sexual interests.*


Your story makes a lot more sense to me now. I kind of understand how you two have this dynamic together with each other. It is half as much coming from you.

You hear a lot of us asking why you don't verbally challenge her more often. You usually don't actually answer this. I get why that is now. 

Brother...now is the time to do a literal 180 and just TALK to her, risking everything, risking rejection and being branded evil and whatever else she can throw at you. Toss those shackles off your feet and walk, man! 

Its now or never. You either cast your demons aside and align with your natural sexual self (including standing up for your healthy sex life with your wife)...or you submit to those false messages that you are evil and let them drown your voice forever, never to be heard in real life and therefore, no good raunchy nookie like you wish you could have will ever be possible...with your WIFE, no less!

Go to an exorcist, a psychologist, a hypnotist or other shaman of your choice...get rid of that demon and fight for your sexual self.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I haven't been clear. It was tough but a year or two ago I did do that. I told her how I felt, what it would take to make me happy. How things seemed unbalanced. Since she seemed unclear on what I wanted, I gave a clear example of what would be an OK sex life. 

She said no. She said that having sex that often would feel like a job and she would resent me. That is when she said just how awful oral sex was for her, how disgusting and abusive and that my giving her oral was completely different from her doing it for me. She complained that this had come out of the blue and why couldn't i ask nicely. (which I'd done before and of course been turned down).

In her opinion, our sex life is good, I'm just completely unreasonable in my desires. She thinks that she does all sorts of things (unspecified) for me (in bed and out). 

Some of the LD women here seem to understand. To my wife, sex is bad, a thing to be avoided, something women do *for* selfish men who demand it. There is something wrong with me for wanting it. Her feelings are completely normal, she has no desire at all to change them. 


That is why I started this by saying that I knew things wouldn't change. 

I've already been branded as evil and a pervert. 

Or its all a show she puts on - but even then, clearly she doesn't want sex, so why should I push it. A therapist might convince here that she *should* have sex with me, but won't make her enjoy it. 







Faithful Wife said:


> Your story makes a lot more sense to me now. I kind of understand how you two have this dynamic together with each other. It is half as much coming from you.
> 
> You hear a lot of us asking why you don't verbally challenge her more often. You usually don't actually answer this. I get why that is now.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

H,
This is the part where I see parallels. I recall the time M2 and I were having a calm but very blunt exchange about conflict styles and she said in a completely even tone of voice: I don't get mad, I get even.

Which is less true today than back then - but still true at times. 

When M2 doesn't want to do something she claims to not be able to understand what I want. Suddenly her IQ drops about 50 points. Now I just laugh when that happens. Tell her: Babe, I can't make you do this. If you aren't going to - just say and I'll come up with a work around. Sometimes - she will smile and go with the flow. Others she says: that's probably best.

U2's little lingerie stunt feels very get even-ish to me. And part of their marital imbalance is Uhtred's response to this type thing. 

My simplest script is often the best: Babe, tell me why you are upset with me. I don't like it when you are being mean, especially when I don't know why. 










MrsHolland said:


> There is a lot of tip toeing around this. Yes her behaviour is selfish, yes she may well love and value herself and her own happiness well above the OP's. That is all bad but is forgivable and understandable.
> 
> The part that is so hard to read about is the wearing lingerie around the house. It comes across as a very mean thing to do. Being mean to your partner is just not on. You can love yourself more, you can be a LD person but when it stoops down to being a mean person that should be a bar too low to live with.
> 
> ...


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> H,
> This is the part where I see parallels. I recall the time M2 and I were having a calm but very blunt exchange about conflict styles and she said in a completely even tone of voice: I don't get mad, I get even.
> 
> Which is less true today than back then - but still true at times.
> ...


It works bc you break the cycle. MrU is participating in the cycle and my bet is that is why his wife is upping the get even stakes by wearing more and more enticing lingerie. His passiveness is fueling her aggressiveness. 

FWIW I very much dislike the saying "don't get mad, get even". It is a train wreck in the making. If revenge were my MO I would have decimated my ex husband, instead we co parent together better than most one house hold families.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

True
But I got dealt a totally different hand. Using a card analogy - M2 being my bridge partner: We both got dealt good hands. Both liked sex. When we met I was ummm - competent and she was - spectacular. 

More important she never had the idea sex was bad. Neither of us did. 

Add to that she absolutely came to the show with a very pronounced viewpoint: 
- Sexual indifference greatly increases the risk of an affair
- A decidedly homicidal posture towards cheaters 







MrsHolland said:


> It works bc you break the cycle. MrU is participating in the cycle and my bet is that is why his wife is upping the get even stakes by wearing more and more enticing lingerie. His passiveness is fueling her aggressiveness.
> 
> FWIW I very much dislike the saying "don't get mad, get even". It is a train wreck in the making. If revenge were my MO I would have decimated my ex husband, instead we co parent together better than most one house hold families.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I haven't been clear. It was tough but a year or two ago I did do that. I told her how I felt, what it would take to make me happy. How things seemed unbalanced. Since she seemed unclear on what I wanted, I gave a clear example of what would be an OK sex life.
> 
> She said no. She said that having sex that often would feel like a job and she would resent me. That is when she said just how awful oral sex was for her, how disgusting and abusive and that my giving her oral was completely different from her doing it for me. She complained that this had come out of the blue and why couldn't i ask nicely. (which I'd done before and of course been turned down).
> 
> ...


Did you wife say those things to you? Evil and pervert. 

It wouldn't surprise me if there was some abuse in her past. 
There is nothing wrong with you, but your wife could have issues that she chose to bury and never resurrect ever again. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It was a much longer discussion, but that was the quick summary. Maybe more abusive than evil - she made it clear that BJs are abusive to women ("I think you like it because I don't like it"). "Pervert" was sort of implied by her reaction to a variety of suggestions that I have made. The "You want me to do XYZ??????". and "I don't see why you want that". 

Abuse is quite possible. 



MrsAldi said:


> Did you wife say those things to you? Evil and pervert.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me if there was some abuse in her past.
> There is nothing wrong with you, but your wife could have issues that she chose to bury and never resurrect ever again.
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Please don't get hung up on the lingerie. Its strange and difficult to understand but I don't object to it. I've long since stopped seeing her as implying sex no matter what she wears.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

uhtred said:


> It was a much longer discussion, but that was the quick summary. Maybe more abusive than evil - she made it clear that BJs are abusive to women ("I think you like it because I don't like it"). "Pervert" was sort of implied by her reaction to a variety of suggestions that I have made. The "You want me to do XYZ??????". and "I don't see why you want that".
> 
> Abuse is quite possible.


BJs are not abusive to women, that's just her opinion/view. 
Maybe something happened with a old boyfriend or something, who knows but that's her view and only she can change it, if she wants. 

Can women change their views on sex, absolutely, but that woman has to want do it herself. 

Does she know that her comments hurt you? 

It's such a pity, it sounds like you guys otherwise have a great marriage, if only she realised that sex can add so much more love and intimacy. 

Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

A


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Please don't get hung up on the lingerie. Its strange and difficult to understand but I don't object to it. I've long since stopped seeing her as implying sex no matter what she wears.


I don't see it as confusing. Wearing lingerie makes her feel pretty and feel good about herself. She doesn't wear it for you. 

She's self-absorbed and she's not into you sexually. It is as simple as that. 

But you have decided to live with this as long as the other aspects of the relationship are of a benefit to you. I get it.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> My simplest script is often the best: Babe, tell me why you are upset with me. I don't like it when you are being mean, especially when I don't know why.


 @bandit.45 is correct. We do know why. U2 wears sexy lingerie for some combination of the following:

1. She feels guilty for rejecting U. She feels it is U's fault that she feels guilty (if he did not continue to desire sex, she would not feel guilty). She wants to punish U for making her feel guilty. So she teases him by wearing sexy lingerie even though she has no interest in having sex and would reject him if he initiated. She sees this as a fitting almost poetic "justice" for his mistreating her by triggering her guilt.
2. She likes feeling desired and desirable. She dresses up to allow U to show that he still finds her sexy.
3. She likes knowing that U remain under her thumb / thrall / control. She likes seeing U react to her dressing sexy because it means he is still tied to her. Still committed to staying married to her. If he decided to leave, his reaction to her would be very different. Her getting a "rise" out of him by dressing sexy confirms he hasn't decided to leave.

We all know this is 100% about power and control and nothing about sex or sexiness or her desire for sex with U. In fact it is quite the opposite. Her desire to dress up in sexy lingerie arises directly from her LACK of desire to have sex with U. It is sick and twisted, but quite common and understandable and actually quite rational when viewed from inside her dysfunction.

U does not need to ask her why she does this, because in reality he already knows. And he also knows she will never admit the truth. So there is no point in asking. In fact, asking is a weak move because in the end he will undoubtedly accept her total BS responses which will only further reduce her already pitiful lack of respect for him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holding,
I'd be a hypocrite if I claimed not to understand his aversion to such a conversation. 

I can just barely manage the occasional comment about M2's jealousy issues. Normally anything real difficult like that - I can sit down - and in ten minutes or so whip up a nice tight script.

But at best I give her a metaphor - the voltage is just too high on those trip wires. Just don't want to fool with them. 

U2 claims she has a normal sex drive/preference set. 

M2 claims she isn't jealous at all. 

My best case scenario is she understands how jealous she is - and then just feels really bad about it - but the underlying theme isn't going away. 






Holdingontoit said:


> @bandit.45 is correct. We do know why. U2 wears sexy lingerie for some combination of the following:
> 
> 1. She feels guilty for rejecting U. She feels it is U's fault that she feels guilty (if he did not continue to desire sex, she would not feel guilty). She wants to punish U for making her feel guilty. So she teases him by wearing sexy lingerie even though she has no interest in having sex and would reject him if he initiated. She sees this as a fitting almost poetic "justice" for his mistreating her by triggering her guilt.
> 2. She likes feeling desired and desirable. She dresses up to allow U to show that he still finds her sexy.
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Interesting update. After a several months of almost nothing Ms. Uhtred has gotten interested again and we at least engaged in some sort of sexual activity a few times in the last 2 weeks. Her only comment is that she is "less busy". This has happened before and previously never lasted, but we'll see.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I only got partway through your OP and got depressed and felt my blood pressure rising.

Sorry dude.

I'll never understand.


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## 247769 (May 18, 2016)

The cross we are called to bear is sometimes extremely hard

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Update continued: Mrs. Uhtred is still being much more interested and has also been trying a wider range of things. I've gotten my hopes up then had them dashed so many times in the past that it takes time for me to believe that there has been a real change. Still, I'm (as always) hopeful.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@uhtred: Glad to hear that her interest has picked up and glad to hear it happened while you were still interested.

Lately there are hints that H2 might be interested but I no longer am. More's the pity. Nice to witness someone else's wife waking up in time.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Update continued: Mrs. Uhtred is still being much more interested and has also been trying a wider range of things. I've gotten my hopes up then had them dashed so many times in the past that it takes time for me to believe that there has been a real change. Still, I'm (as always) hopeful.


Hope it works out for you. It's my belief that a person can only accept so much dismissiveness in a relationship before it erodes the foundations. You have the patience of a stone to put up with it and still cling to hope.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Just an update - and more mysteries.

Not surprisingly, our frequency of sex dropped again, went a month without anything this last time. This included a week long vacation with lots of opportunities.

Then this last weekend she suddenly wanted intimacy again. Seemed to really enjoy it - then gave me a BJ, something she has said in the past she finds disgusting an degrading. This was without any asking or hints on my part.

Next few days she's seemed happy and more affectionate. Yesterday she wanted to get to bed early again - but wanted to check FB first. 15 minutes later she decided she was too tired. (sigh). 

There has not been a single occasion in at least a year when we had sex after I suggested it. 

I don't understand this woman. She gives every impression of enjoying sex and it making her happy. She often talks as if she wants sex, but usually changes her mind at the last minute. When I've asked her about it, she just apologizes and says that she got "tired".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Just an update - and more mysteries.
> 
> Not surprisingly, our frequency of sex dropped again, went a month without anything this last time. This included a week long vacation with lots of opportunities.
> 
> ...


As you well know, our wives are quite similar in many ways. The one difference that I can see is that we at least maintain a regularity in our sex life.

And frankly, that's because I don't let her get sidetracked by things such as checking FB, or playing board games, or what have you.

It may seem overly simple and obvious, but when she says she wants to do something beforehand, don't allow her. Literally say "no" if you have to. Check FB later.

In short, stop taking these rain checks, as they almost always seem to end up like this.

Your wife's interest in sex seems to be extremely fleeting, and easily lost. So the key is to pounce when she's indicated it's there. Because in 5 minutes, it won't be - and you know this.

I'm sure I've said this to you before, but you know your wife HAS a sex drive. It IS there. It just doesn't last very long when it comes to her. Even my wife doesn't have those moments of being in the mood - ever. She's RD, so it's _always_ up to me. Yours is telling you, even if it's relatively rare, that she's in the mood, but then you're making the huge mistake of allowing her to get sidetracked, which inevitably turns into her no longer being receptive.

And I'm sure this has been discussed before, but it almost seems to me that your wife purposely allows herself to get sidetracked when she has these brief moments.

OR, because she's not sexually aggressive at all, maybe these moments when she tells you she's ready, she wants you to jump her, right then and there. But then when you don't, she subconsciously sabotages it all. It seems like you have a very very small window with her. She tells you she's game, and if you don't act immediately, she finds something else to do, all with the promise of "when I'm done doing this". Then the inevitable happens.

I actually think she KNOWS this, TBH. That it's her 'out' because you didn't pounce at that exact moment. Her interest is so fleeting, and she wants you to take her the second she indicates she's game.

So maybe next time she says something, take her by the hand, lead her upstairs, and do your thing. Don't allow her to do some mundane, time-wasting activity beforehand. You know what the outcome will be.

Beyond all that, the main issue is that the two of you are inherently sexually passive - and that just never works. I'm not sexually aggressive by nature, either, but I've learned to be on occasion. It goes against my grain, I'm afraid, and I don't always feel comfortable with it, but it's necessary. The only times in my life where I've been comfortable being sexually aggressive is when my partner is the same. So in a weird way, I seem to mimic my partners attitudes towards sex - and that's weak, I know.

My wife is passive, so I mimic those traits. She burned it into my head long ago that she despises being viewed as a sexual object, so I've subconsciously (or consciously) avoided doing that. And by not doing that, I'm not showing her much sexual passion. It's lose-lose.

My ex wife and I were neither passive nor aggressive with one another - or rather, we were somewhat both. Most of the time, we just had sex. On occasion, either one of us would jump the other. Sex would just happen. There was no discussion, no asking. It was 80% mutual, 20% one of us jumped the other. No schedule, no discussions, no rain checks or planning. Nobody kept track of how often. On occasion if one of us wasn't in the mood, or too tired, we'd take care of the other. Or she'd masturbate in bed next to me while I fell asleep, or vice-versa. No shame, no keeping track, or keeping score, no "you owe me one" - nada. All natural, and no big deal.

But as you know, we both have wives who generally dictate to us what our sex lives will be. I've taken steps to remedy that in my marriage, and it's _better_, but I'm not there yet.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've tried being more aggressive and it doesn't work. I think its because her getting side tracked isn't the cause, its the effect. I think she *thinks* she wants sex, but actually doesn't. She knows she enjoys it, in an intellectual sense wants it, but realizes at the last minute that she doesn't desire it now, and somehow hopes she will. 

Its as if the first stage of desire / arousal works, but the next step just doesn't happen. If we actually do start being intimate, she does get aroused, but there is some barrier before that point. 

If I try to push against one of these distractions, she'll say "I'll just be a minute". 

I could call her on it, and she might have sex out of guilt - but that really isn't the goal. Most of the time she is very limited in what she will do in bed anyway (last weekend was a very rare exception). I'm just not willing to pressure her into "sex" when that means that she gives me a quick HJ and figures its all good for that month.


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

sixty-eight said:


> Blondilocks said:
> 
> 
> > @EmergingBuddhist, I was literally talking about the heat in the house - the furnace. Sexy lingerie does not keep a lady warm. It was a little passive/aggressive ploy that could entice her to snuggle up to him for body warmth. If not, at least she'll be freezing her tatas off.
> ...





uhtred said:


> Sort of tried this. Several months of not commenting on her appearance, not being affectionate. She did ask why but when I told her how difficult it was to be affectionate without a sex life, she just went back to her usual. apologies for why we couldn't have sex in each particular case (tired, sick etc). All valid excuses except she is never too tired or sick to do things she wants to do.
> 
> Overall result though was not change in sexual activity.
> 
> ...


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## SoSmartJuliet (May 25, 2017)

uhtred said:


> I've tried being more aggressive and it doesn't work. I think its because her getting side tracked isn't the cause, its the effect. I think she *thinks* she wants sex, but actually doesn't. She knows she enjoys it, in an intellectual sense wants it, but realizes at the last minute that she doesn't desire it now, and somehow hopes she will.
> 
> Its as if the first stage of desire / arousal works, but the next step just doesn't happen. If we actually do start being intimate, she does get aroused, but there is some barrier before that point.
> 
> ...


You'd rather play all these games than just divorce her? Why?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The rest of the marriage is good. 



SoSmartJuliet said:


> You'd rather play all these games than just divorce her? Why?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Just an update:. Wife has developed an arthritis-like problem in her hands. The motions of her using her hands to stimulate me make it worse (I believe this is true). So that eliminates the last sexual thing she could do for me. 

She tried to be intimate a couple of times a week, using toys to get used to penetration again, but that faded away. That means that intercourse is out. She generally hates doing oral (with very rare exceptions, maybe 1/year). 

So I can live with a very nice roommate, or divorce. I've thought about it for a long time and decided that a really nice roommate is the better choice.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Just an update:. Wife has developed an arthritis-like problem in her hands. The motions of her using her hands to stimulate me make it worse (I believe this is true). So that eliminates the last sexual thing she could do for me.
> 
> She tried to be intimate a couple of times a week, using toys to get used to penetration again, but that faded away. That means that intercourse is out. She generally hates doing oral (with very rare exceptions, maybe 1/year).
> 
> So I can live with a very nice roommate, or divorce. I've thought about it for a long time and decided that a really nice roommate is the better choice.


I'm glad that you're happy.

But the Gods of Cosmic Justice are not!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Does that mean no sex at all?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Probably. The constraints are:

She only wants sexual activity 1-2X/month. She really doesn't want it more often no matter what. 

At that low rate, PIV doesn't work. She is post menopause, and without some relatively frequent stretching PIV is painful for her. He expectation of pain of course makes it worse. 

Her hand problem is real. She may be right that the last time she gave me a HJ triggered this. I've never enjoyed HJs much anyway, so its not a big loss. 

She finds doing oral disgusting and unpleasant. So unpleasant that she would rather do without any sexual activity ever than do oral.

She is not interested in any more exotic sexual activities. 

She is not interested in changing things. She believes that sex is not an important part of life. 

I enjoy pleasing her, so while I could just withhold intimacy completely, what is the point? It wouldn't result in her being willing to do anything for me and she is content to go without sex indefinitely. 

I could threaten to divorce over lack of sex and that might work, but I don't want sex under threat. If I wanted sex with someone who is unhappy during the act, I'd just hire a call girl - at least some of them are probably happy with the overall transaction, and just bored during the act itself. 

20 years ago I might have divorced her, but in my mid 50s? The rest of our lives are very good. Its just not worth throwing away everything else for sex. 

What is good?
She is smart. She is affectionate (in a non-sexual way). She works a high paying job and has significant additional wealth. She is happy to share in all chores. We enjoy a lot of the same activities / vacations together - including travel to rather exotica places. We share a lot of the same intellectual and political interests. She is absolutely trustworthy. She, like me, is happy without children. 







Personal said:


> Does that mean no sex at all?


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I actually think this would be the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

BUT, I'm not in my mid-50's, either.

Listen, the lack of sexuality in your life is obviously an issue - otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. I genuinely think that if you saw how the other half lived, you'd change your mind.

I got into this rut a few years ago, where I had the "This is it, make the best of it" mindset. Something - I don't know what - said "NO, this is NOT it". Perhaps it's because I had already been married once before.

I can't say I'm a success story, but I've made great strides to at least prevent my marriage from getting to the point where you're at now. I have little doubt that had I let it be and been passive, it would have.

So while my sex life is not where I want it to be, my wife DOES know what I will not stand for much less than what it currently is.

FWIW, handjobs can be done with the other hand. Oral sex IS something she gives you occasionally (a few posts above this one, you said she gave you one out of the blue). Lube, and more frequent penetration will alleviate the vaginal tightness and subsequent pain. My opinion - these things can be overcome, but you've been beat down so much, and so often, that these things have made you hit your proverbial wall, and cry 'uncle'.

The bottom line, IMO, is that she does not love you as much as you love her, nor does she value the marriage as much as you do. That may sound harsh, and does not imply she does NOT love you, or does NOT value you or the marriage - just that it's not as much as you do.

Yes, marriage is so much more than sex, but sex in marriage is so much more than just the physical, as well. It encompasses everything that you can't do with someone else and is quite literally the dividing line between having a companion and having a spouse.

If you're okay with having a life partner, a companion, a really good friend, then so be it. But I don't think you do.





uhtred said:


> Probably. The constraints are:
> 
> She only wants sexual activity 1-2X/month. She really doesn't want it more often no matter what.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uh,

I'm not certain you will be unhappier with this result. Meaning - you were at an irritatingly low frequency - and she has some unfortunate habits: consistently suggesting sex and then not following through, her control issues, etc. 

That said - while I'm not a mechanical engineer - I have a very solid understanding of Newtonian physics. 

It's way, way less mechanically stressful (on U2's hands and wrists) if you:
1. Use lube
2. She creates a tunnel with one hand and does something useful with her second hand
3. You kind of do the work - motion 

This allows you to control the pace and it's easy for her. Oh and she is lying on her back - I put a towel on M2. 







uhtred said:


> Probably. The constraints are:
> 
> She only wants sexual activity 1-2X/month. She really doesn't want it more often no matter what.
> 
> ...


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> She probably wanders around in lingerie because she needs your admiration and compliments, but still isn't interested in sex.
> 
> Good Lord! Has no one ever told this woman that BJ's are the opposite of abuse or degradation? In the case of BJ's, the giver has the power and the receiver is helpless under their spell. A woman skilled with her mouth can WTFPWN a man in minutes.


Woof!.....I wuv u......

Red Dog's residual Epigenetics still live on in this life form.

Carried from the old sack to the newest one.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

uhtred said:


> She rarely wants sex but *every evening wears sexy lingerie around the house and appreciates my telling her how attractive she is in it,* and appreciates hugs, kisses, etc. Recently she has been wearing the especially enticing stuff that normally implied an interest in sex that night, and has said we should get bed after dinner, but almost every time has been too tired when it was time. (??)


Like most men you cannot read a women's mind. The program is written in Hieroglyphics. The code 'cipher' is written on the vestige tip of her umbilical chord inside her belly button opening. 

Only a women priest can read this...with the aid of a microscope. For you to do this would require her to be unconscious. Expensive equipment would need to be had. Once you get the cipher, you must go to the Library of Alexandria to decode it. 

Oh, dear, I forgot, it was burned down by Mohammedans centuries ago. Ask @Hope1964, she is on the Red Queens council. She may be able to get it decoded.

On second thought.....fa-get-about-it! 
...............................................................................................................................................
Lingerie? Walking around with her luscious stuff showing through?

You do not get it, because you do not get it.

She wants to be taken. Grab her, pick her up and take her to your bed. 

Go down of her. Lick it softly. Ignore her phony pleas.

Lube her and yourself up...................... and go for broke. Pound her.

Tell her that what she has is what you want. I want to say more, but it upsets @EleGirl.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Probably. The constraints are:
> 
> She only wants sexual activity 1-2X/month. She really doesn't want it more often no matter what.
> 
> ...


Well it looks like you will be doing ALL the chores from now on, with her unusable hands that is. 

Maybe you can get a house keeper that doubles up as a FWB.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

It is threads like this and my own experience that makes me wish there was a pill to eliminate sexual desire.

Cold and hot, games, emotions, connections, the guessing, the hoping, disappointments, the small successes, reading silly self-help books,---- is it worth it?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> The bottom line, IMO, is that she does not love you as much as you love her, nor does she value the marriage as much as you do. That may sound harsh, and does not imply she does NOT love you, or does NOT value you or the marriage - just that it's not as much as you do.


I don't think this is possible to tell from our vantage point...both that of not knowing either one of them personally, and also the vantage point of being normal-to-HD persons.

LD's and asexual people can and do love as deeply and as full of emotion as all other types of people. Just because this love doesn't cause sexual arousal or willingness or wanting in them doesn't mean the love isn't there or isn't as "real". For people like me and you, if we love them, we will also want to have sex with them in most relationships (if no other anti-sexual feelings are present). But we can't think or feel like people who aren't like us. So it is impossible to imagine Mrs. U's feelings of love or anything else, from our vantage point.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Its as if the first stage of desire / arousal works, but the next step just doesn't happen. *If we actually do start being intimate, she does get aroused*, but there is some barrier before that point.


This is called Responsive Desire.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MH,
This is that theme - most folks in the modern world simply won't address. And frankly the way it is 'typically' addressed in the first world is in this big, undifferentiated bucket called cheating. 

Cheating - to me - is about Deception, Disease and Disrespect. Opening the marriage - whole different deal. 

I think it's sad when people limit their options to having a happy sex life or divorce. 

I'm fairly certain the U2 would try to simultaneously claim that sex is not that important AND that their marital world will be instantly destroyed by any extra-marital activity on his part - even if it is purely physical (read pay for sex).

I also believe that in this one case - Uhtred - is looking through the wrong end of the telescope. 

I doubt U2 is anymore able to leave him, than he is to leave her. They are orbiting each other, he isn't orbiting her. And the same gravitational field he finds so unbreakable - same deal for her. 

And the thing he sort of doesn't seem to get is this. In this case, her control issues can be his friend. 

That was my message to M2 - who is the biggest control freak this side of the Mason Dixon line. Babe, you can do whatever you want. Have sex with me, don't have sex with me. I'm not leaving. That said - I'm not gonna be celibate. So - let me know what you want to do. 

And just so there is no ambiguity on this point, my message wasn't: Put out on demand or I'm gonna sleep with other women. I'm neither insane, abusive or suicidal. It was more along the lines of: 

If you've truly lost your desire - I'm not gonna leave you. But - I'm not gonna be celibate either. 






MrsHolland said:


> Well it looks like you will be doing ALL the chores from now on, with her unusable hands that is.
> 
> Maybe you can get a house keeper that doubles up as a FWB.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> MH,
> This is that theme - most folks in the modern world simply won't address. And frankly the way it is 'typically' addressed in the first world is in this big, undifferentiated bucket called cheating.
> 
> Cheating - to me - is about Deception, Disease and Disrespect. Opening the marriage - whole different deal.
> ...


In some cases (mine included) the options were limited to happy sex life or divorce. By that point I no longer liked or loved my ex but Uhtred does love his wife so given that, he would do well to take on board what you have written here.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Probably. The constraints are:
> 
> She only wants sexual activity 1-2X/month. She really doesn't want it more often no matter what.
> 
> ...


I always see sex as part of the foundation of marriage, as important as love, communication, trust and the other ones. If there is corrosion in your foundation eventually the structure will fall. So in my opinion what you are accepting involves some significant risks.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It is an interesting point. In the past she has always claimed that we had a normal sex life. Now if we are truly celibate, maybe she can't claim that is normal. 



MEM2020 said:


> MH,
> This is that theme - most folks in the modern world simply won't address. And frankly the way it is 'typically' addressed in the first world is in this big, undifferentiated bucket called cheating.
> 
> Cheating - to me - is about Deception, Disease and Disrespect. Opening the marriage - whole different deal.
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

QFT 

I will add that - if the LD partner has fairly strong control issues - that can either make this issue a lot worse or a lot better. 

In a marriage where the LD+CP (controlling personality) considers monogamy an absolute and unconditional commitment, the control issues amplify the sexual disconnect. 

In a marriage where the LD+CP considers monogamy to be every bit as much a responsibility as a commit - whole different deal.




Faithful Wife said:


> I don't think this is possible to tell from our vantage point...both that of not knowing either one of them personally, and also the vantage point of being normal-to-HD persons.
> 
> LD's and asexual people can and do love as deeply and as full of emotion as all other types of people. Just because this love doesn't cause sexual arousal or willingness or wanting in them doesn't mean the love isn't there or isn't as "real". For people like me and you, if we love them, we will also want to have sex with them in most relationships (if no other anti-sexual feelings are present). But we can't think or feel like people who aren't like us. So it is impossible to imagine Mrs. U's feelings of love or anything else, from our vantage point.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MH,

I feel like your H betrayed you for most of the marriage - where sex is concerned. I know he didn't cheat - but he sure as heck lied to you on a regular basis. 





MrsHolland said:


> In some cases (mine included) the options were limited to happy sex life or divorce. By that point I no longer liked or loved my ex but Uhtred does love his wife so given that, he would do well to take on board what you have written here.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> And the thing he sort of doesn't seem to get is this. In this case, her control issues can be his friend.
> 
> That was my message to M2 - who is the biggest control freak this side of the Mason Dixon line. Babe, you can do whatever you want. Have sex with me, don't have sex with me. I'm not leaving. That said - I'm not gonna be celibate. So - let me know what you want to do.
> 
> ...


A couple of thoughts....

Given that you are younger than Mr and Mrs U, you obviously drew this line with M2 long ago, and you were both very young (compared to Mrs and Mr U). If Mr U would have delivered such a boundary when they were much younger, this may have worked for them as it did for your marriage. But that moment has come and gone. Mrs U, very correctly, knows that Mr U isn't going to leave her or go outside the marriage (at least not openly, the way you stated it "I won't be celibate".) If he attempted to say such a thing now she would just be hurt and angry and know that he was full of hot air.

And also...Mrs U is a different animal than M2. M2 genuinely enjoys sex with you. Mrs U seems to only genuinely enjoy being sexually stimulated, but not sex and not sexually stimulating Mr U.

Apples to oranges.


----------



## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> MH,
> 
> I feel like your H betrayed you for most of the marriage - where sex is concerned. I know he didn't cheat - but he sure as heck lied to you on a regular basis.


Well more fool me for buying the lie and not getting out sooner. Then again we had kids and up till the last few years I still did love him. 

So here is something ironic, he is on the verge of wanting to sit down and talk about it all (8 years down the track) and I am the one that is avoiding it. I did my introspection, healing, forgiving years ago and just don't want to put in the energy. So now I am the LD and am making excuses and avoiding the opportunity to talk to him about this. I now sort of understand the fear a LD person can have.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

The differences between our marriage and theirs are huge. 
- Children
- Financial dependence (M2 was determined to be a SAHM)
- Social anxiety issues (M2's)

And yes - M2 likes sex. She likes it physically and takes pride in feeling sort of invincible. For example, when I came back from a biz trip to Jakarta - where there was zero chance of her 'catching me' I said: I had a couple moments where I was alone with a masseuse and had to say no. And it wasn't that difficult to do. 

And that is a massive positive reinforcement to someone who honestly thinks infidelity is worse than murder. 










Faithful Wife said:


> A couple of thoughts....
> 
> Given that you are younger than Mr and Mrs U, you obviously drew this line with M2 long ago, and you were both very young (compared to Mrs and Mr U). If Mr U would have delivered such a boundary when they were much younger, this may have worked for them as it did for your marriage. But that moment has come and gone. Mrs U, very correctly, knows that Mr U isn't going to leave her or go outside the marriage (at least not openly, the way you stated it "I won't be celibate".) If he attempted to say such a thing now she would just be hurt and angry and know that he was full of hot air.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nothing foolish about trusting someone else to behave the same (positive) way that you would. 

He wants your forgiveness. That's why he wants to talk. 





MrsHolland said:


> Well more fool me for buying the lie and not getting out sooner. Then again we had kids and up till the last few years I still did love him.
> 
> So here is something ironic, he is on the verge of wanting to sit down and talk about it all (8 years down the track) and I am the one that is avoiding it. I did my introspection, healing, forgiving years ago and just don't want to put in the energy. So now I am the LD and am making excuses and avoiding the opportunity to talk to him about this. I now sort of understand the fear a LD person can have.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

uhtred said:


> It is an interesting point. In the past she has always claimed that we had a normal sex life. Now if we are truly celibate, maybe she can't claim that is normal.


Maybe.

Or maybe she will just claim that it's normal to stop having sex after a certain number of years being married, or when one partner has a disability, or something else equally "valid".

I'd be amazed if she admitted that it isn't normal.

Why should she? She has what she wants.

The fact that you don't have what *you *want doesn't matter to her.

And as far as her being a nice roommate, in that case she would be fine with your dating someone else.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Devil's Advocate questions whether her arthritis condition impacts the rest of her life, be it typing on a laptop, loading the dishwasher, or gardening.

I'm speaking from experience. My hands are in not so great condition due to repetitive stress injury - lots of exercises to help, and so on. I also use an OTC med that is quite effective. I've had one surgery already and will likely need another. I don't think any of this is debilitating enough.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uh,
Nothing normal about how much I love M2. And I'm not interested in what is or isn't normal for other husbands. Just what works for me or doesn't. 

Something doesn't work for me, that's not a: I'm leaving you - type deal

That's purely a matter of: I will do what I need to for myself. Doing it FOR ME, not TO M2. 

What makes it easy is that - I have a very, very short list of priorities. So I'm not shy where those items are concerned.








uhtred said:


> It is an interesting point. In the past she has always claimed that we had a normal sex life. Now if we are truly celibate, maybe she can't claim that is normal.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You are right. The thing is, I don't see a path to getting what I want - which is a good sexy life with my wife. 

I might have a good sex life with someone else. They might turn out to be a good person in all the other ways, but it is a huge gamble. 



tech-novelist said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Or maybe she will just claim that it's normal to stop having sex after a certain number of years being married, or when one partner has a disability, or something else equally "valid".
> 
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think this particular problem is exaggerated, but in a sense it doesn't really matter. Either she can't or doesn't want to have sex. The result is the same. 



john117 said:


> Devil's Advocate questions whether her arthritis condition impacts the rest of her life, be it typing on a laptop, loading the dishwasher, or gardening.
> 
> I'm speaking from experience. My hands are in not so great condition due to repetitive stress injury - lots of exercises to help, and so on. I also use an OTC med that is quite effective. I've had one surgery already and will likely need another. I don't think any of this is debilitating enough.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I don't think this particular problem is exaggerated, but in a sense it doesn't really matter. Either she can't or doesn't want to have sex. The result is the same.


Au contraire, there's a huge difference between "can not" and "will not".


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sex with a partner who doesn't want sex doesn't appeal to me. To me its mostly about the interaction with the other person, not the physical sensation. 

Lets face it, if it was just physical sensation, straight guys would be happy to get a BJ from someone of either gender. 






john117 said:


> Au contraire, there's a huge difference between "can not" and "will not".


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If she doesn't want to have sex then arthritis is as good an excuse as anything else. In other words, she's not upfront honest with you. 

If you want interaction then you better make sure it's honest interaction, not dishonest. My wife has told me that "her body cannot handle it". That is the same body that cycles 20-25 miles a day, walks 10...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I don't think this is possible to tell from our vantage point...both that of not knowing either one of them personally, and also the vantage point of being normal-to-HD persons.
> 
> LD's and asexual people can and do love as deeply and as full of emotion as all other types of people. Just because this love doesn't cause sexual arousal or willingness or wanting in them doesn't mean the love isn't there or isn't as "real". For people like me and you, if we love them, we will also want to have sex with them in most relationships (if no other anti-sexual feelings are present). But we can't think or feel like people who aren't like us. So it is impossible to imagine Mrs. U's feelings of love or anything else, from our vantage point.


You are right, of course, but I am not talking about 'that' kind of love.

Rather, I am talking about the kind of love and importance one puts on a marriage - THIS marriage - by taking their partner, and their needs, seriously.

Mrs. U does not, I'm afraid.

Bottom line - it ain't about sex. Sex is just the medium.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

uhtred said:


> You are right. The thing is, I don't see a path to getting what I want - which is a good sexy life with my wife.
> 
> I might have a good sex life with someone else. They might turn out to be a good person in all the other ways, but it is a huge gamble.


I understand that. I took a somewhat similar gamble 20 years ago and it worked out for me, but that doesn't mean it would work out well for you.

However, you have an advantage over the situation I was in then: the evidence that she will change her behavior if she thinks she has to do so.

You can make it clear to her that a reasonable sex life (defined the way you want to) is mandatory if she wants to be married to you, *and be willing to make that stick*.

What can happen then?

1. She may straighten out and fly right, or
2. She may keep up her current approach.

I think there is more than a 50% probability that she will pick #1... since *she has already done* that when she thought you were serious.

In that case, you have a win-win situation.

Only if she picks #2 are you going to end up having to look for another wife.

The way you are going, you have no chance of happiness.

Standing up for yourself gives you a pretty good chance, if I'm reading the situation correctly.

Of course, it's your life, so it's your decision. But I know what I would do in your situation.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I don't think this is possible to tell from our vantage point...both that of not knowing either one of them personally, and also the vantage point of being normal-to-HD persons.
> ...


This is not a need for Mr U the way it is for you and I. You and I would end a marriage over it. Mr U will not. Therefore, Mrs U doesn't see this as an actual need of his, which is an accurate point of view.

So many HD's feel the same...like, how can my LD spouse ignore my needs like this? Yet if they stick around no matter what the LD does, then they can't actually say it is a need. Just a want.

Mrs U knows this is a want, not a need.

And again, that is an accurate POV.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uh,

Your analogy below is truly excellent. I would pass on getting a bj from a man. That said - when I got the full body massage in Jakarta - it was a turn on - I won't pretend otherwise - but if my choices were self service or outsourcing a full body massage with a happy ending - I'd outsource. 

But that's based on what John describes as a 'won't' type scenario. Not a 'can't' type situation. 







uhtred said:


> Sex with a partner who doesn't want sex doesn't appeal to me. To me its mostly about the interaction with the other person, not the physical sensation.
> 
> Lets face it, if it was just physical sensation, straight guys would be happy to get a BJ from someone of either gender.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uh,
Agreed regarding the interaction bit. That said - the premise of sexless marriages is twofold:
1. A LD/ND partner who simultaneously asserts two absolutely contradictory views regarding the importance of sex and their right to absolute exclusivity. 
2. An unhappy HD partner who tolerates and enables this foolishness.





uhtred said:


> Sex with a partner who doesn't want sex doesn't appeal to me. To me its mostly about the interaction with the other person, not the physical sensation.
> 
> Lets face it, if it was just physical sensation, straight guys would be happy to get a BJ from someone of either gender.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

I wouldn't end a marriage over sex, but would accept my partner ending a marriage with me over it. 

If a partner basically says: accept celibacy or I will leave you - I would shrug and say: I'm gonna miss you

I couldn't leave her, but I'd let her leave me. 




Faithful Wife said:


> This is not a need for Mr U the way it is for you and I. You and I would end a marriage over it. Mr U will not. Therefore, Mrs U doesn't see this as an actual need of his, which is an accurate point of view.
> 
> So many HD's feel the same...like, how can my LD spouse ignore my needs like this? Yet if they stick around no matter what the LD does, then they can't actually say it is a need. Just a want.
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> FW,
> 
> I wouldn't end a marriage over sex, but would accept my partner ending a marriage with me over it.
> 
> ...


I'd just leave.


----------



## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

uhtred said:


> You are right. The thing is, I don't see a path to getting what I want - which is a good sexy life with my wife.
> 
> I might have a good sex life with someone else. They might turn out to be a good person in all the other ways, but it is a huge gamble.


My suggestion would be to stop playing her game. In other words, when she is walking around in Lingerie, stop paying attention to her, stop giving her affection, stop giving her compliments...After a little while of this she may re-think her behavior.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is not a need for Mr U the way it is for you and I. You and I would end a marriage over it. Mr U will not. Therefore, Mrs U doesn't see this as an actual need of his, which is an accurate point of view.
> 
> So many HD's feel the same...like, how can my LD spouse ignore my needs like this? Yet if they stick around no matter what the LD does, then they can't actually say it is a need. Just a want.
> 
> ...


And again, you are right, but this isn't what I'm talking about 

Uhtred has imparted upon his wife how much importance he puts on a healthy, "normal" sex life, yet she has done little over the marriage to show that she takes it seriously.

It doesn't matter what _her_ desire level is or even what _his_ is - there has to be a compromise. And there hasn't ever been one - only when she's faced with a fed-up Mr. U, and only for short periods. Every now and again she surprises him with a BJ, or actually following through with what she says she's going to do.

But it's bare minimum, IMO, and that's my point - because she puts significantly less importance on one aspect of the marriage does not mean she can not, or should not, have to see things his way and thus compromise.

And I don't think she's ever really compromised. Uhtred has said repeatedly that she does actually enjoy sex (at least physically) when they have it. There has never been a reason, that I can see, why they shouldn't be having sex at least once a week.

Except... she gets caught up in FB, or board games, or TV shows or whatever. And rather than allow her responsive desire to flourish, she simply decides that "nope, not gonna happen now". Despite her knowing that this is a real need of her husbands.

What makes it worse, IMO, is that she'll recognize this need, set aside the time for it, and tell him so - then decide that one of the above things is more important, and then 'poof' - gone.

Therefore, the only conclusion is that she does not put the same importance on the marriage as he does.

What this reminds me of is my first marriage. My ex wife and I were GREAT friends. Seriously, best friend I've ever had. In hindsight, this was probably all we ever were, and the love we had for each other was not romantic. I see this now. We had a sex life, but it was because we were all we had. I don't ever recall having passionate sex with her - which is likely why it was never _great_ sex. But our marriage was based on our being ridiculously compatible _friends_. And although it was extremely difficult to part ways in that respect, we're both better off for it in the long run. Had that marriage not imploded via lies and cheating, we would have remained friends, and I'm sad that we didn't.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> It is an interesting point. In the past she has always claimed that we had a normal sex life. Now if we are truly celibate, maybe she can't claim that is normal.


Still seeing things through her rule set.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

farsidejunky said:


> Still seeing things through her rule set.


Couldn't agree more.

This is why I said that I was perilously close to falling into the same trap.

I finally woke up and realized the depth of my wife's control over our sex life, and how much I was simply accepting it and making excuses. I wasn't happy about it, but I justified almost everything, mainly by saying to myself "she has a point" etc.

The reality was my wife was a sexual being prior to meeting me, but only in the sense of "that's what you do" - not because she truly was a sexual being. It's clear that she never was.

However... accepting that it essentially stopped once the relationship (or any other relationship) became stable - I almost fell into that. Her previous LTR before me ended the same way - though from her standpoint, she had a valid reason to not have regular sex with her ex. - and she did. He likely sees it differently, of course, but all the same.

Point is, there was, and still is, no valid reason for OUR sex life to have come to a screeching halt a number of years ago. Only that she achieved this stability, and it was subconsciously no longer necessary.

Much like Mem (but to a lesser degree) I eventually imparted to her that this was not going to fly. I can't say I rocked the boat TOO much, but enough to get us back on somewhat of a track. I know that it's in there in the back of her mind somewhere.

Mrs. U does not have this in the back of her mind, however, IMO.

And listen, I'm NOT a success story. I DID compromise myself and my needs to a certain degree. More than my wife, probably. But it's something, and I'm _okay_ with the way things are. Not thrilled, mind you, but not unhappy, either.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> Therefore, the only conclusion is that she does not put the same importance on the marriage as he does.
> 
> .


I'm sorry but your conclusion is not the "only" conclusion. It certainly isn't mine. I'm not about to declare either of us or anyone who doesn't know them personally to understand their whole dynamic from afar to own the "only" conclusion. I'm not sure why you'd even say it that way.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
The interesting thing is that you and Uh have a structurally identical situation. Both of you have partners who assert absolute control over when sex happens. 

And in the spirit of - either enlightenment or pot stirring - not sure which:
- while the frequency A2 allows is higher than U2s, you consistently come across as more agitated about it
- you are laying this at U2's feet and I don't think it belongs there 

Pretty sure that Uh has never asked U2: Why is it you consistently dress in a manner designed to produce desire - when it's obvious you aren't interested in responding to that desire? 





alexm said:


> And again, you are right, but this isn't what I'm talking about
> 
> Uhtred has imparted upon his wife how much importance he puts on a healthy, "normal" sex life, yet she has done little over the marriage to show that she takes it seriously.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,
I think you ought to reread FW's earlier post regarding how HD/LD folk struggle to understand each other. 

I absolutely believe that Uh's wife loves him. She is completely independent financially and she clearly enjoys his company/touch. She is under no duress to remain with him and yet she happily does. 





alexm said:


> Couldn't agree more.
> 
> This is why I said that I was perilously close to falling into the same trap.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

What you suggest makes it an unwinnable argument. She rationalizes that she "can't" therefore in her mind she's set. 

I can only hope her arthritis hands are good enough to drive him to the doctor if needed 😷


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

QFT.



MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> The interesting thing is that you and Uh have a structurally identical situation. Both of you have partners who assert absolute control over when sex happens.
> 
> And in the spirit of - either enlightenment or pot stirring - not sure which:
> ...


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

It is a very simple statement of facts: Honey, I need sex, if you do not wish to provide it, then I will have to go elsewhere. We could set up a fund so that I can enlist the services of escorts, or, we could save money by me finding a FWB. Either way, if you no longer wish to have sexual congress with me, I shall have to go elsewhere. I promise that I will refrain from emotionally bonding with my fu6k buddy, but my penis requires attention several times weekly, and since you consider oral abuse, and you suck at handjobs, and your ***** is closed to me, I can either fu6k your ass, or ear canal or I can go find a woman who really wants me.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There I completely agree. Not wanting sex is understandable. Not wanting sex yourself and also insisting that your partner not have sex with anyone else seems strange. 

At least in the case of Mrs U, and I suspect other natural LDs, sex itself is not a desirable thing. They see the desire for sex as unnecessary, maybe a little gross. So they see no reason their partner should want something like that. 

Lets say that you are not a heavy drinker / partier. But your partner wants too go out a couple of times a week and get completely blotto. You don't want to do that, and might not think that they should be doing it either. You feel getting smashed several times a week is not a good way to live your life. 




MEM2020 said:


> Uh,
> Agreed regarding the interaction bit. That said - the premise of sexless marriages is twofold:
> 1. A LD/ND partner who simultaneously asserts two absolutely contradictory views regarding the importance of sex and their right to absolute exclusivity.
> 2. An unhappy HD partner who tolerates and enables this foolishness.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@uhtred I can admire your stance. You love your wife, even more than you "need" sex.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> It is an interesting point. In the past she has always claimed that we had a normal sex life. Now if we are truly celibate, maybe she can't claim that is normal.


Be truly celibate. She can't or won't do anything for you. Don't do anything for her. Not out of spite. But out of honesty. Stop pretending you guys have a sex life. Give her what she has been asking for. A sexless marriage. Then she will see if she truly wanted what she was asking for.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Remember this post starts with "the strange case...."

She has said why she does this. She says that she likes to make me happy and dress in ways that I find attractive. 

To her, sexy dress, casual affection, hugs, kisses, lying together in bed, etc are completely separate from *sex*. 

I've tried to explain that being enticing but not having sex is frustrating but she honestly doesn't seem to get it. She'll ask "so you don't want me to wear lingerie then?". 

I'm OK with her wearing lingerie because to me i not longer indicates an interest in sex. 

She enjoys physical affection, and non-sexual intimacy. 

Several people in the past have suggested that she is an abuse victim. Its possible, though I've never seen a direct sign of it. There is no easy way to ask. 






MEM2020 said:


> snip
> 
> Pretty sure that Uh has never asked U2: Why is it you consistently dress in a manner designed to produce desire - when it's obvious you aren't interested in responding to that desire?


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Speaking as a LD/ND female, I have no concept of desire. That's totally non-existent. During the decades I was married I could and did deliver sex on demand -- only because I wanted to please my husband -- but I could not deliver desire and that's what my husband wanted most. When you don't desire you don't see the importance of sex. And you don't see why it's important for anyone else either. It just doesn't make sense. That was my experience anyway.


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Uh,
> 
> Your analogy below is truly excellent. I would pass on getting a bj from a man. That said - when I got the full body massage in Jakarta - it was a turn on - I won't pretend otherwise - but if my choices were self service or outsourcing a full body massage with a happy ending - I'd outsource.
> 
> But that's based on what John describes as a 'won't' type scenario. Not a 'can't' type situation.


Mem, you've brought this point up on several occasions, and I can't help but feel that you have a certain advantage over a lot of folks in similar situations. You can have unattached sex and get some fulfillment from it.

For me, the thought of a non-sexual full body massage makes me cringe. The thought of a sexual one plays out in my mind like a horror show. I don't like being touched by strangers--never have. Only close members of my family even get hugs. That said--I do value and enjoy being touched, and derive a great amount of fulfillment from sex--but only with someone I trust.

It almost seems that a person like myself is hamstrung by an inability to go the outsourcing route. In many ways it appears to be one of the few workable solutions, unless you're willing to basically just bluff it--which I'm not.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

How would you have felt about him getting sex elsewhere? Was it that you didn't desire sex but intellectually understood that it was very important to other people, or did / do you feel that it really wasn't important to others and that they were just being selfish.. 

I know Mrs U doesn't really believe sex is important to me. She has described my desire as "like a kid who insists on dessert every day". Basically as a fairly trivial want, not something of any real importance. 

Did you get physical pleasure from sex, but it just wasn't important, or didn't you find it physically enjoyable?

Its very valuable for me to understand how LD people think because just as you have difficulty with the concept of desire, I have difficulty with imagining a lack of desire. To me romantic love and sexual attraction / desire are tied together and I can't imagine having one and not the other. So for me being rejected sexually feels like being told "I don't love you, but we are good friends", even though I know intellectually that isn't how she actually feels. 

For you is romantic love different from filial love? If so, other than sexual desire, what distinguishes them?









Openminded said:


> Speaking as a LD/ND female, I have no concept of desire. That's totally non-existent. During the decades I was married I could and did deliver sex on demand -- only because I wanted to please my husband -- but I could not deliver desire and that's what my husband wanted most. When you don't desire you don't see the importance of sex. And you don't see why it's important for anyone else either. It just doesn't make sense. That was my experience anyway.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Mem, you've brought this point up on several occasions, and I can't help but feel that you have a certain advantage over a lot of folks in similar situations. You can have unattached sex and get some fulfillment from it.
> 
> For me, the thought of a non-sexual full body massage makes me cringe. The thought of a sexual one plays out in my mind like a horror show. I don't like being touched by strangers--never have. Only close members of my family even get hugs. That said--I do value and enjoy being touched, and derive a great amount of fulfillment from sex--but only with someone I trust.
> 
> It almost seems that a person like myself is hamstrung by an inability to go the outsourcing route. In many ways it appears to be one of the few workable solutions, unless you're willing to basically just bluff it--which I'm not.


Right there with ya, Brother Bear (fist bump).

Though I can enjoy a professional non-sexual massage, so that part is different....but I cannot fathom unattached sex. The few times in my life when I have had sex with a new person relatively quickly, I still knew them enough to trust them and to allow myself to be open to the experience. I also had the expectation of a continued relationship. I could *never* be that vulnerable with someone I knew I'd never see again, who didn't give a crap about me or my well being, and who didn't value the experience other than in some weird unattached way that I can't relate to. For all my ramblings about how much I love sex, I'm not talking about detached pleasure for pleasure's sake with "whoever".

I'm talking about an emotional act that brings our bodies together and we shed our "separate-ness" for a short but blissful time. The pleasure is secondary, and there's no pleasure at all, regardless of what part of my body gets stimulated, if there is no attachment.

I've never had sex with someone I didn't genuinely care about. And if I have had sex with anyone who didn't genuinely care about me, that was not made known to me. As far as I do know, all of my lovers sincerely cared about me, my well being, and my mind as much or more than caring about the pleasure we might experience. This includes lovers who didn't really fit the bill for me. We still cared about each other and wanted it to be a mutually good experience. That was our intent.

I can appreciate that others can and do enjoy unattached sex. But I can't understand it when I try to consider it for myself.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Taxman said:


> .....I can either fu6k your ass, or ear canal or I can go find a woman who really wants me.


My response to this would be "fck you and the horse you rode in on", regardless if I was HD, LD, or anything in between.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is not a need for Mr U the way it is for you and I. You and I would end a marriage over it. Mr U will not. Therefore, Mrs U doesn't see this as an actual need of his, which is an accurate point of view.
> 
> So many HD's feel the same...like, how can my LD spouse ignore my needs like this? Yet if they stick around no matter what the LD does, then they can't actually say it is a need. Just a want.
> 
> Mrs U knows this is a want, not a need.


What spouse loves their partner and yet refuses to try and meet their wants?

Does some definition of love that I'm not familiar with include not caring about your partner's happiness?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Thank you. 
Its true, but at the same time its incredibly frustrating and I have to work hard to avoid feeling resentment. 

It seems to *me* that it would be so easy for her to change and make our marriage completely wonderful. Intellectually I understand that its not easy for *her*.






Faithful Wife said:


> @uhtred I can admire your stance. You love your wife, even more than you "need" sex.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

That is the question. My interpretation is that other than on rare occasions when she wants it, sex for her is extremely unpleasant.

The best I can imagine is to picture if your partner was the wrong gender for you most of the time. Imagine some curse or something that made the woman you love physically male 95% of the time. Its the same person you love inside, but would you want to have sex with them when they were male? (assuming you are completely straight - if you are Bi, I can't think of a good analogy).




Buddy400 said:


> What spouse loves their partner and yet refuses to try and meet their wants?
> 
> Does some definition of love that I'm not familiar with include not caring about your partner's happiness?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Openminded said:


> Speaking as a LD/ND female, I have no concept of desire. That's totally non-existent. During the decades I was married I could and did deliver sex on demand -- only because I wanted to please my husband -- but I could not deliver desire and that's what my husband wanted most. When you don't desire you don't see the importance of sex. And* you don't see why it's important for anyone else either*. It just doesn't make sense. That was my experience anyway.


The bolded, even though you didn't understand *why*, you knew that it was important to them, right? 

There are lots of situations where I don't understand *why* something is important to people in my life. 

However, I do not, as a result, decide that it is therefore not actually important to them. 

It's important to them, so it's important to me.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> What spouse loves their partner and yet refuses to try and meet their wants?
> 
> Does some definition of love that I'm not familiar with include not caring about your partner's happiness?


Just as an HD person cannot understand what it feels like to be an LD person, neither can the LD person understand what it feels like to be an HD person.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Let's say I want millions of dollars and a mansion, but I married a middle class man and I myself am middle class income level. Is my man supposed to break his neck to deliver this to me? Or should he instead think "yes I want lots of things that I'll never have, too...and yet, I know I'll be ok without them so I don't know why you would fret so much about not having this want of yours met. No one ever died from lack of a want being met".

When you try to project your own thinking onto someone else's needs or wants, you will never get it right or understand their position. You may never understand their position even if you are more empathetic and don't project your own thinking on them, either, but at least you might understand that they DO NOT THINK LIKE YOU DO.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> That is the question. My interpretation is that other than on rare occasions when she wants it, sex for her is extremely unpleasant.
> 
> The best I can imagine is to picture if your partner was the wrong gender for you most of the time. Imagine some curse or something that made the woman you love physically male 95% of the time. Its the same person you love inside, but would you want to have sex with them when they were male? (assuming you are completely straight - if you are Bi, I can't think of a good analogy).


Yep. You've succeeded in finding the only possible exception that allows you to believe that your wife does love you while refusing to have sex with you. 

You're too good at rationalizing. 

However, she gets aroused once you've begun.

I don't believe your rationalization holds.


----------



## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Wow, I haven't read the entire thread, but a lot of the end of it. I can relate to the OP in so many ways. I think to me ex, sex was simply a means to the end (that she desired). Once she had her baby, sex with me was no longer important. She told me that none of her GFs liked to have sex with their husbands, it was just something they did to keep the peace. I don't know, maybe all of her GFs did feel that way. But what I do know is than many men and women risk everything they own to get a little and nations and empires have gone to war over it. So that never really made sense to me. She also told me she was just too busy to even think about having sex with me, but that never stopped her from meticulously planning her Girl's nights and weekends out or vacations I couldn't afford. She would give me five minutes as if this "gift" from her was all that was needed and then she could get ready to go shopping with her GFs. It caused a huge amount of resentment on my part.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Just as an HD person cannot understand what it feels like to be an LD person, neither can the LD person understand what it feels like to be an HD person.
> 
> Why is this so hard to understand?


My response did not mention HD or LD. My proposal was that if someone loved you, they would care about your happiness.



Faithful Wife said:


> Let's say I want millions of dollars and a mansion, but I married a middle class man and I myself am middle class income level. Is my man supposed to break his neck to deliver this to me? Or should he instead think "yes I want lots of things that I'll never have, too...and yet, I know I'll be ok without them so I don't know why you would fret so much about not having this want of yours met. No one ever died from lack of a want being met".


My response was that, if someone loved you, they would *care* about your happiness.

I did not say that they would succeed in achieving the results needed to ensure your happiness.



Faithful Wife said:


> When you try to project your own thinking onto someone else's needs or wants, you will never get it right or understand their position. You may never understand their position even if you are more empathetic and don't project your own thinking on them, either, but at least you might understand that they DO NOT THINK LIKE YOU DO.


A child molester may *say* that he did what he did because loved the child (he may really think that). 

Is it incumbent on me to credit him with loving the child? 

After all, he doesn't think like I do, so who am I to say.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Yep. You've succeeded in finding the only possible exception that allows you to believe that your wife does love you while refusing to have sex with you.
> 
> You're too good at rationalizing.
> 
> However, she gets aroused once you've begun.


I agree that @uhtred is rationalizing. I am doing the same thing.

I believe U2 is a rape / abuse victim. H2 is. The way I interpret H2's response to sex is that it might feel OK while it is happening, but afterward she feels like she was forced to eat a fecal sandwich and wash it down with a urine spritzer. Or maybe more accurately, she so fully dissociates from her body while it is happening that her body is free to response to the physical sensation even though her mind is horrified and shocked and not enjoying it and trying to pretend it isn't happening. So the physical arousal or response is not indicative of whether the experience is psychologically enjoyable.

Buddy, suppose a group of guys tied you down and one of them gave you oral sex. Are you sure you would not get aroused? If you did get aroused and did have an orgasm, would you want all of us to discredit any claim you might make that you hated every second of it?


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Thank you.
> Its true, but at the same time its incredibly frustrating and I have to work hard to avoid feeling resentment.
> 
> It seems to *me* that it would be so easy for her to change and make our marriage completely wonderful. Intellectually I understand that its not easy for *her*.


I had the same feelings in my marriage. "He could have so easily just given me more sex and I would have been happier".

But I understand now that we are divorced, even more than I did when we were together (even though sex was not the reason for our divorce), that NO he could NOT have just easily "given" me more sex. I'm not comparing our situations, because mine was in no way a sexless marriage. But the way it felt to me when I was driven mad by lust and wanted more sex than he was willing to have was exactly what you said. Like it was something he could have just "given" me. But to him, sex was not "given" by either partner, it was something experienced together when both partners wanted it. So if he did not genuinely want it himself, we didn't have it. In our case, this was never a rejection of me personally. It was simply that he was not willing to have sex when he didn't have the inner desire to do so. If he had wanted sex and I didn't (even though this never actually occurred), he would not have had sex then, either.

After seeing how we both have acted after we split up, this is even more evident. I am the one who needed and wanted to find a lover. He has not. He does not "need" sex, and although he loves and craves sex, he is not willing to enter a relationship just to get it. He also doesn't have unattached sex (at this stage in his life), so that's out, too. He is celibate truly by choice, and will remain so until he feels ready for a relationship again. I myself will never be celibate by choice.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> A child molester may *say* that he did what he did because loved the child (he may really think that).
> 
> Is it incumbent on me to credit him with loving the child?
> 
> After all, he doesn't think like I do, so who am I to say.


This response is so ridiculous and vile that I won't bother responding to you anymore.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uh,
You don't need to be so imaginative. Let's pick a dessert you like - but it has to be something really rich/heavy. Fudge or double chocolate cake or an ice cream sundae. 

Have a first portion and then a second and then a - unfortunately you are now really full - so when you tuck in to the third helping you might start feeling sick. Keep going. Right at the point you throw up - that's it. 





uhtred said:


> That is the question. My interpretation is that other than on rare occasions when she wants it, sex for her is extremely unpleasant.
> 
> The best I can imagine is to picture if your partner was the wrong gender for you most of the time. Imagine some curse or something that made the woman you love physically male 95% of the time. Its the same person you love inside, but would you want to have sex with them when they were male? (assuming you are completely straight - if you are Bi, I can't think of a good analogy).


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree that @uhtred is rationalizing. I am doing the same thing.
> 
> I believe U2 is a rape / abuse victim. H2 is. The way I interpret H2's response to sex is that it might feel OK while it is happening, but afterward she feels like she was forced to eat a fecal sandwich and wash it down with a urine spritzer. Or maybe more accurately, she so fully dissociates from her body while it is happening that her body is free to response to the physical sensation even though her mind is horrified and shocked and not enjoying it and trying to pretend it isn't happening. So the physical arousal or response is not indicative of whether the experience is psychologically enjoyable.
> 
> Buddy, suppose a group of guys tied you down and one of them gave you oral sex. Are you sure you would not get aroused? If you did get aroused and did have an orgasm, would you want all of us to discredit any claim you might make that you hated every second of it?


Good point.

My 'She gets aroused' had far more of an impact than I would have intended. Really just should have left it out. I was thinking more along the lines of those with responsive desire who get aroused once they've begun.

I'd certainly understand how that could be the case with a CSA victim. However, we have no real reason to believe that she is one.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

I am speaking as a mod. And in that capacity I'm asking you to not equate consenting adult conflict with behavior that is criminal, especially sexually criminal behavior. 




Buddy400 said:


> My response did not mention HD or LD. My proposal was that if someone loved you, they would care about your happiness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> This response is so ridiculous and vile that I won't bother responding to you anymore.


I'll admit that it might not have been the best analogy I could come up with to counter the "everyone's values are exactly equal" meme, but it was, unfortunately, the first thing that came to mind.

It was unfortunate because it led you to avoid responding to my first 2 comments (which were a good deal less vile).


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> Buddy,
> 
> I am speaking as a mod. And in that capacity I'm asking you to not *equate consenting adult conflict with behavior that is criminal, especially sexually criminal behavior*.


I'd ban myself if I thought I did such a thing.

I was attempting to show the flaw in the concept that "a word means whatever one thinks it means".

Unfortunately, I failed spectacularly.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She gives every indication of loving me in all respects except sex. For me, and for many others, sex and love are closely tied together. For her they seem completely independent. 



Buddy400 said:


> Yep. You've succeeded in finding the only possible exception that allows you to believe that your wife does love you while refusing to have sex with you.
> 
> You're too good at rationalizing.
> 
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

U2 might be a rape / abuse victim, but here reactions are different from H2s. 

Most of the time, she does not want sex. 

When she does want sex, she will go out of her way to make it happen. Afterwards she gives every impression and verbally claims to have enjoyed it. 

But when that is brought up the next time, if she doesn't want sex, there will always be some specific reason why she can't have sex now. She's gotten a little better about saying "I don't feel like it tonight" rather than making up some excuse. 

So it isn't just that she physically enjoys it while it is happening, she seems glad it happened afterwards.






Holdingontoit said:


> I agree that @uhtred is rationalizing. I am doing the same thing.
> 
> I believe U2 is a rape / abuse victim. H2 is. The way I interpret H2's response to sex is that it might feel OK while it is happening, but afterward she feels like she was forced to eat a fecal sandwich and wash it down with a urine spritzer. Or maybe more accurately, she so fully dissociates from her body while it is happening that her body is free to response to the physical sensation even though her mind is horrified and shocked and not enjoying it and trying to pretend it isn't happening. So the physical arousal or response is not indicative of whether the experience is psychologically enjoyable.
> 
> Buddy, suppose a group of guys tied you down and one of them gave you oral sex. Are you sure you would not get aroused? If you did get aroused and did have an orgasm, would you want all of us to discredit any claim you might make that you hated every second of it?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> U2 might be a rape / abuse victim, but here reactions are different from H2s.
> 
> Most of the time, she does not want sex.
> 
> ...


Uhtred, what do you suppose would be her reaction if you plainly said to her that while you're willing to be celibate for the rest of your life, it pains you greatly emotionally? Do you suppose her reaction would be more regret, or relief? And if it's a combination, which dominates?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Nothing is quite a good analogy for sex. 

If you eat too much, it is directly physically unpleasant. Providing some sexual stimulation (not penetration) to a partner is effort but not in general directly physically unpleasant. 

Not that I want sex as a chore, but is giving your partner a HJ physically more unpleasant than doing dishes, or laundry or a whole range of other things you do during the day?

To be clear, I don't want her to do a "chore" of getting me off. But its also clear that she wouldn't want to do that even if it was something I wanted. (this is before the whole hand problem).



MEM2020 said:


> Uh,
> You don't need to be so imaginative. Let's pick a dessert you like - but it has to be something really rich/heavy. Fudge or double chocolate cake or an ice cream sundae.
> 
> Have a first portion and then a second and then a - unfortunately you are now really full - so when you tuck in to the third helping you might start feeling sick. Keep going. Right at the point you throw up - that's it.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uh,
You truly have a delightful thoughtfulness to you. It's a gift. I don't think U2 is being dismissive in her comments about you being spoiled. I believe she knows this situation is hurtful to you even though she lacks a high quality understanding of what it feels like to be HD. So if not dismissive than what? I'm guessing she is being defensive. Because I am guessing she does feel anxious about this subject. 

So here's my revised analogy. 

Synchronized eating. So now we are eating - but it's synchronized. So you have to eat what I eat and vice versa. Except - we both have veto power. So if either of us stops eating, the other has to stop. 

When I'm usually full, and you are typically hungry it can get kind of tense. 





uhtred said:


> She gives every indication of loving me in all respects except sex. For me, and for many others, sex and love are closely tied together. For her they seem completely independent.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I can prove empirically that sex can be *emotionally* unpleasant for LD folks. 

Because they choose to let the marriage end over doing it. Many marriages end over this single issue. And in others it is the largest single contributor. 





uhtred said:


> Nothing is quite a good analogy for sex.
> 
> If you eat too much, it is directly physically unpleasant. Providing some sexual stimulation (not penetration) to a partner is effort but not in general directly physically unpleasant.
> 
> ...


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I have - though slightly differently since this was when we still had some sexual activity. 

She thought our sex live (her giving me a HJ every couple of weeks) was fine - that intercourse would be nice too but it was too uncomfortable. She thought I was being spoiled / unreasonable in wanting more frequency or variety. 

I expect if I talked to her now, she would describe this a a temporary interruption until her hands get better. She will then apologize that there is "nothing else she can do". She has basically already said that. 






Fozzy said:


> Uhtred, what do you suppose would be her reaction if you plainly said to her that while you're willing to be celibate for the rest of your life, it pains you greatly emotionally? Do you suppose her reaction would be more regret, or relief? And if it's a combination, which dominates?


----------



## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I have - though slightly differently since this was when we still had some sexual activity.
> 
> She thought our sex live (her giving me a HJ every couple of weeks) was fine - that intercourse would be nice too but it was too uncomfortable. She thought I was being spoiled / unreasonable in wanting more frequency or variety.
> 
> I expect if I talked to her now, she would describe this a a temporary interruption until her hands get better. She will then apologize that there is "nothing else she can do". She has basically already said that.


What would be her excuse for not using a toy with/on you? They make stuff for dudes too.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This - saying she doesn't want to - instead of making an untrue excuse - is a big step forward. 

I have said this to M2: I love that you don't make up untrue excuses - you just say - you don't want to. This whole 'I have a headache routine' wouldn't work for me because it wraps deceit around the process - which is the opposite of real intimacy 





uhtred said:


> U2 might be a rape / abuse victim, but here reactions are different from H2s.
> 
> Most of the time, she does not want sex.
> 
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> She gives every indication of loving me in all respects except sex. For me, and for many others, sex and love are closely tied together. For her they seem completely independent.


I fully understand that sex and love are not closely tied together for many.

For me, bowling and love aren't closely tied together. 

I think bowling is stupid and a waste of time.

If it made my wife happy to bowl, then I'd want her to experience that on a regular basis. Perhaps I'd bowl with her once a week and have her join a league another night a week.

What I wouldn't do is tell her that nobody bowled at our age; tell her that bowling was unimportant or that she was crazy for wanting to bowl.

Why? Because I love her and her happiness is important to me.

Now, if for some reason bowling was very painful for me or triggered bad childhood memories; I'd tell her that I understood how important bowling is to her but that I was, unfortunately, unable to satisfy her in that area and that she'd have to look elsewhere. I wouldn't be able to do anything about her wants, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't care about them. 

It's not a connection between sex and love. It's the connection between love and caring about your partner's happiness.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

When we do have "sex" she is happy to use a vibrator to get me off, but its not something I particularly enjoy and she knows that. I don't know if she would agree if I asked. It took a while to convince her that while it "worked", it wasn't a sensation I enjoyed. 




Fozzy said:


> What would be her excuse for not using a toy with/on you? They make stuff for dudes too.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> My response was that, if someone loved you, they would *care* about your happiness.
> 
> I did not say that they would succeed in achieving the results needed to ensure your happiness.


Ok I'll respond to this....IMO, you are simply stating your opinion of how things should be. As such, this only applies to you and others who think like you.

The whole purpose the love languages book was to help people understand that no matter what you individually think about how love is shown, not everyone will feel loved in the same way you do. "Caring about someone's happiness" does not mean the same to all people, even all the ones who do agree that caring about their spouse's happiness is a priority. But if that person tries to "care" about their partner's happiness without understanding this, then they will only apply their own love languages when trying to show they care. The other partner may never feel any happiness as a result if they do not have the same love language.

Using the love languages in my example here doesn't mean I think it is that simple, though. It is just one example of many I could make where people can and do care about their spouse's happiness and yet won't or can't do "that one thing" that would truly make their spouse happier.

Surely there are those who simply don't care about their spouse's happiness or don't love them at all.

That is not what is happening here and I think it is highly insulting (to the OP) when others come in and say "this is obvious, he/she doesn't care about and/or love you" without taking into account the rest of the story of the couple's lives. 

My ex didn't have sex with me as often as I wanted him to. I never once felt that meant he didn't love me or care about my happiness. So your theory that "if someone loves you, they would care about your happiness" is only your opinion of how things work. And I think it should be obvious that we don't all interpret things like this the same way, so your insistence that there is some rock solid factual meaning behind an idea like "if someone loves you..." is just odd, from my point of view.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I can prove empirically that sex can be *emotionally* unpleasant for LD folks.
> 
> Because they choose to let the marriage end over doing it. Many marriages end over this single issue. And in others it is the largest single contributor.


Then again.

I'm sure that there are marriages that end because the husband is a lazy slob who never does anything at home other than drink beer in his underwear while watching TV.

So, we could say that it would be *emotionally* unpleasant for him to do anything around the house since he chose to let the marriage end over doing it.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Then again.
> 
> I'm sure that there are marriages that end because the husband is a lazy slob who never does anything at home other than drink beer in his underwear while watching TV.
> 
> So, we could say that it would be *emotionally* unpleasant for him to do anything around the house since he chose to let the marriage end over doing it.


Yes, and that would be accurate. Why is this so hard for you to believe or accept? We don't all share the same internal, emotional realities.

Of the people I know who are (what most would call) lazy and don't want to do standard housecleaning, *yes it definitely is emotionally unpleasant for them to do housecleaning*. I've known several people like this.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok I'll respond to this....IMO, you are simply stating your opinion of how things should be. As such, this only applies to you and others who think like you.
> 
> The whole purpose the love languages book was to help people understand that no matter what you individually think about how love is shown, not everyone will feel loved in the same way you do. "Caring about someone's happiness" does not mean the same to all people, even all the ones who do agree that caring about their spouse's happiness is a priority. But if that person tries to "care" about their partner's happiness without understanding this, then they will only apply their own love languages when trying to show they care. The other partner may never feel any happiness as a result if they do not have the same love language.
> 
> ...


I think that you're still not clear on what I mean by caring about your partner's happiness vs actually making them happy.

Caring means just that; that you care. If I am unhappy, my wife cares about that. She cares about my happiness far more than she cares about a stranger's happiness.

That's important. If I was unhappy and my wife didn't care, I'd feel unloved. I don't know how I could feel otherwise.

Now if she tries to make me happy by taking me to a craft show, she would fail. But, if I knew that she did that in an attempt to make me happy, it would still be well intentioned and I would value that.

She'd do better by taking me to a baseball game and, if she thought about what I like instead of assuming that everyone liked what she did, she'd have a better chance of turning her caring into effective action.

But, either way, she still cared about my happiness. If I can't count on someone caring about my happiness when they tell me they love me, then the word really wouldn't mean anything to me anymore.

Did your ex *care* that you were unhappy about the amount of sex you were having?


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex,
> I think you ought to reread FW's earlier post regarding how HD/LD folk struggle to understand each other.
> 
> I absolutely believe that Uh's wife loves him. She is completely independent financially and she clearly enjoys his company/touch. She is under no duress to remain with him and yet she happily does.


But I'm not _talking_ about LD/HD, I'm talking about the marriage, period, full stop, and Mrs. U's - _not inability_ - but unwillingness to bend in this one regard.

No, she's under no duress, but perhaps she should be.

I'm sorry, but I don't see this as a typical LD/HD dynamic. More of a "there's no reason ever been given to me to do these things, therefore I don't care". Whereas my wife is along the lines of "I don't care about _this_, but I care about _him_, and the marriage." (and herself).

Your wife knows you will outsource if need be. My wife knows I have a threshold. Did either of us "win" with this approach? No. But we didn't lose, and better yet, and more importantly, IMO, neither did our wives.


----------



## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Openminded said:


> Speaking as a LD/ND female, I have no concept of desire. That's totally non-existent. During the decades I was married* I could and did deliver sex on demand -- only because I wanted to please my husband *-- but I could not deliver desire and that's what my husband wanted most. When you don't desire you don't see the importance of sex. And you don't see why it's important for anyone else either. It just doesn't make sense. That was my experience anyway.


Absolutely correct.

The bolded is what Uhtred is missing, and I've stated my reasons why I think this is.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> U2 might be a rape / abuse victim, but here reactions are different from H2s.
> 
> So it isn't just that she physically enjoys it while it is happening, she seems glad it happened afterwards.


H2 also seems happy afterwards. Because she has done her wifely duty. Because she has shown she is "normal" and our marriage is "normal" and there is no problem that I could reasonably complain about.

We had sex for H2's birthday. She asked. As someone who desired and was denied sex on many birthdays during our marriage, I consider it cruel to deny anyone a birthday romp. So unlike the previous couple of times when she asked and I rejected her, on her birthday I consented. The sex was OK. She seemed blissfully happy afterward. Smiling. Almost giddy. That was January. That was the last time she asked. Exactly how much do you think she truly enjoyed it?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, and that would be accurate. Why is this so hard for you to believe or accept?


It isn't hard for me to believe or accept.

My point was that saying people don't do things because they are emotionally difficult to do isn't much different than saying that they don't do them.

There are things that are emotionally difficult for me to do that easy for others. 

If it's important to do, I do them anyway.

If it's not important, I avoid them.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> H2 also seems happy afterwards. Because she has done her wifely duty. Because she has shown she is "normal" and our marriage is "normal" and there is no problem that I could reasonably complain about.
> 
> We had sex for H2's birthday. She asked. As someone who desired and was denied sex on many birthdays during our marriage, I consider it cruel to deny anyone a birthday romp. So unlike the previous couple of times when she asked and I rejected her, on her birthday I consented. The sex was OK. She seemed blissfully happy afterward. Smiling. Almost giddy. That was January. That was the last time she asked. Exactly how much do you think she truly enjoyed it?


I think that it's very possible that she truly did enjoy it.

Just like believe that my wife truly enjoys having gone to the gym, even though she will resist going the next time.

I understand that not everyone does or thinks as I would in a similar situation (see @faithfulwife!) :smile2:


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I think that you're still not clear on what I mean by caring about your partner's happiness vs actually making them happy.
> 
> *Caring means just that; that you care. If I am unhappy, my wife cares about that. She cares about my happiness far more than she cares about a stranger's happiness.*
> 
> ...


Your wife caring and then executing the type of actions that you feel show "she cares" doesn't make it exactly so for everyone.

No, my ex didn't "care" that I was unhappy about the amount of sex we were having, not in the way you are using the word "care". That doesn't mean he wanted me to be unhappy. And it doesn't mean he didn't love me or wouldn't have helped me if he "could". It just meant that he saw that I was experiencing a state of physical sexual frustration that was affecting my mood, and that this is how I am wired, which is true. I am wired this way with or without him, before I met him and after. It is not his "fault" nor did he ever internalize my being "unhappy". He considered me able to work through my own frustration in my own time, and I learned to do exactly that. He treated me like an adult with a personal issue, which it was. If I whined about it or tried to put it on his shoulders in any way, he simply patted me on the head and said "sorry but you're going to have to learn how to be in control of your own sexuality, baby, I can't do it for you" (as one example of various ways he said this sentiment). After a couple years of us being together and me actually doing just that, learning how to be in control of my own sexuality, I could see how his maturity and his self-aware stance in this actually helped me and made me happier in the long run than what would have happened if he had had more sex with me instead.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> It isn't hard for me to believe or accept.
> 
> My point was that saying people don't do things because they are emotionally difficult to do isn't much different than saying that they don't do them.
> 
> ...


These are your values and I can see why you think they are the "correct" values, but they are not correct in the sense that there are no standard values that are factually correct.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> But I'm not _talking_ about LD/HD, I'm talking about the marriage, period, full stop, and Mrs. U's - _not inability_ - but unwillingness to bend in this one regard.


"If you loved me you would...."

....do what I expect of you.

That's all this post of yours says to me. I do not agree that what appears to be Mrs U's unwillingness to bend means whatever you think it means. Because again, you are not in her shoes, therefore what it means to you and what it means to her is not the same.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex do you not see how this is so similar to your situation? 

You describe A2's rigid insistence on Saturday sex. That you could initiate all you want the other 6 days of the week - and it is not happening. 

The reason I am pushing this point is - of all the posters on this thread you have the best reason to feel anger by proxy at U2. 




alexm said:


> But I'm not _talking_ about LD/HD, I'm talking about the marriage, period, full stop, and Mrs. U's - _not inability_ - but unwillingness to bend in this one regard.
> 
> No, she's under no duress, but perhaps she should be.
> 
> ...


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> There are things that are emotionally difficult for me to do that easy for others.
> 
> If it's important to do, I do them anyway.
> 
> If it's not important, I avoid them.





Faithful Wife said:


> These are your values and I can see why you think they are the "correct" values, but they are not correct in the sense that there are no standard values that are factually correct.


I was just noting how I deal with things that are emotionally difficult (a mistake, diverted attention from the first three lines. I'll never learn).

I said that this is what "I" do.

Nowhere did I state that these are "Correct" ways to respond. 

I'm not quite sure why you keep getting the impression that I believe everyone should think and behave as I do.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A helpful partner is such a gift. 




Faithful Wife said:


> Your wife caring and then executing the type of actions that you feel show "she cares" doesn't make it exactly so for everyone.
> 
> No, my ex didn't "care" that I was unhappy about the amount of sex we were having, not in the way you are using the word "care". That doesn't mean he wanted me to be unhappy. And it doesn't mean he didn't love me or wouldn't have helped me if he "could". It just meant that he saw that I was experiencing a state of physical sexual frustration that was affecting my mood, and that this is how I am wired, which is true. I am wired this way with or without him, before I met him and after. It is not his "fault" nor did he ever internalize my being "unhappy". He considered me able to work through my own frustration in my own time, and I learned to do exactly that. He treated me like an adult with a personal issue, which it was. If I whined about it or tried to put it on his shoulders in any way, he simply patted me on the head and said "sorry but you're going to have to learn how to be in control of your own sexuality, baby, I can't do it for you" (as one example of various ways he said this sentiment). After a couple years of us being together and me actually doing just that, learning how to be in control of my own sexuality, I could see how his maturity and his self-aware stance in this actually helped me and made me happier in the long run than what would have happened if he had had more sex with me instead.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> How would you have felt about him getting sex elsewhere? Was it that you didn't desire sex but intellectually understood that it was very important to other people, or did / do you feel that it really wasn't important to others and that they were just being selfish..
> 
> I know Mrs U doesn't really believe sex is important to me. She has described my desire as "like a kid who insists on dessert every day". Basically as a fairly trivial want, not something of any real importance.
> 
> ...


Smiling. Good questions. I'm not sure I have the answers. 

I view sex as boring beyond belief and it's difficult for me to believe anyone finds it important (although I know people do). My body can respond but I didn't find it especially physically enjoyable. The ability to O is something my body can do but I don't find it that interesting . My husband was a gorgeous man and I saw that but it meant nothing to me physically. I loved him but I have no real concept of romantic love because, to me, that involves desire and I don't have that. Maybe it was that I loved him as a friend. I've never thought about that. But I wanted to make him happy and so he got sex whenever he wanted -- but without desire and that wasn't what he wanted. When I got married I was fairly inexperienced and we both hoped I would improve with time. I never did.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I was just noting how I deal with things that are emotionally difficult (a mistake, diverted attention from the first three lines. I'll never learn).
> 
> I said that this is what "I" do.
> 
> ...


Can you explain to me your reason for stating this, then? It is about you, it is not about OP, I get that. You say that you didn't state it was "correct" and that you don't believe everyone should think and behave as you do. In that case, then what was the point of stating it at all? Honest question.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> The bolded, even though you didn't understand *why*, you knew that it was important to them, right?
> 
> There are lots of situations where I don't understand *why* something is important to people in my life.
> 
> ...


I had sex whenever he wanted so, I guess, yes. I wasn't a refuser. But I always felt sex was a waste of time. Nothing I would choose to do if I were not married.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Openminded said:


> Smiling. Good questions. I'm not sure I have the answers.
> 
> I view sex as boring beyond belief and it's difficult for me to believe anyone finds it important (although I know people do). My body can respond but I didn't find it especially physically enjoyable. The ability to O is something my body can do but I don't find it that interesting . My husband was a gorgeous man and I saw that but it meant nothing to me physically. I loved him but I have no real concept of romantic love because, to me, that involves desire and I don't have that. Maybe it was that I loved him as a friend. I've never thought about that. But I wanted to make him happy and so he got sex whenever he wanted -- but without desire and that wasn't what he wanted. When I got married I was fairly inexperienced and we both hoped I would improve with time. I never did.


I hope you will come back and answer this part of the original question:

"How would you have felt about him getting sex elsewhere?"


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This is very interesting because its so difficult to understand / appreciate / grok. Not sure what to call it - what you say makes intellectual sense but not emotional sense the way my brain is wired.

Do you have a sense of romance? Is it that you didn't have romance / passion for him in particular or do you not feel like that about anyone - even in fantasy? 

Do you have any desire / need for the physical sensation? Are / were you happy to go the rest of your life without an O, or is it something you occasionally wanted and just took care of yourself? (as my wife seems to sometimes do - based on toys moving around - when I'm out of town). 

I can't tell for sure if my wife doesn't feel desire for *me* or for anyone. She enjoys romantic stories / movies, but seems uninterested in the parts involving sex - seems to see those scenes as not part of real "romance". (or maybe I'm projecting"). 





Openminded said:


> Smiling. Good questions. I'm not sure I have the answers.
> 
> I view sex as boring beyond belief and it's difficult for me to believe anyone finds it important (although I know people do). My body can respond but I didn't find it especially physically enjoyable. The ability to O is something my body can do but I don't find it that interesting . My husband was a gorgeous man and I saw that but it meant nothing to me physically. I loved him but I have no real concept of romantic love because, to me, that involves desire and I don't have that. Maybe it was that I loved him as a friend. I've never thought about that. But I wanted to make him happy and so he got sex whenever he wanted -- but without desire and that wasn't what he wanted. When I got married I was fairly inexperienced and we both hoped I would improve with time. I never did.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I hope you will come back and answer this part of the original question:
> 
> "How would you have felt about him getting sex elsewhere?"


I was opposed since he got lots of sex.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Buddy,

I agree with your basic themes and equally important M2 does as well:
1. If it's important to you it's by definition important to me
2. This whole theme of 'you are solely responsible for your happiness' that I often read - does not compute for me

WRT (2): I have a baseline level of happiness when:
1. By myself
2. Socializing with friends and family 
3. With M2 

If (3) wasn't significantly higher than (1) for BOTH of us, we would have divorced long ago. M2 is at least 50% responsible for how happy I am WITH HER. I own the remaining 50% which is largely a function of acceptance. Just as I am at least 50% responsible for how happy she is WITH ME. 




Buddy400 said:


> It isn't hard for me to believe or accept.
> 
> My point was that saying people don't do things because they are emotionally difficult to do isn't much different than saying that they don't do them.
> 
> ...


----------



## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

uhtred said:


> They see the desire for sex as unnecessary, maybe a little gross. *So they see no reason their partner should want something like that*.


Nope, not buying this; it is disingenuous in the extreme; it is denying that humans are sexual creatures.

It is crap and LDs well know it. They know they are not normal sexually and so they use this projection as justification.

If a person is LD then they should own it and stop projecting dysfunction on the rest of humanity.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> This is very interesting because its so difficult to understand / appreciate / grok. Not sure what to call it - what you say makes intellectual sense but not emotional sense the way my brain is wired.
> 
> Do you have a sense of romance? Is it that you didn't have romance / passion for him in particular or do you not feel like that about anyone - even in fantasy?
> 
> ...


No sense of romance, no passion for him or anyone else, no fantasy, no need for physical sensation, happy never to experience any of it again. 

Perhaps I'm at the far end of the spectrum.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lots of things are unpleasant but we do them. Work for one 😀. Cycling for 30 miles at my age. My rear ends feels like I got carried away with lidocaine. But I do it, and enjoy it. 

There's an amazing amount of rationalization going on here. Uh thinks everything is great in his marriage except sex. I thought so too. I rationalized like crazy.

Took me several years to snap out of it.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Openminded said:


> I had sex whenever he wanted so, I guess, yes. I wasn't a refuser. But I always felt sex was a waste of time. Nothing I would choose to do if I were not married.


Captain Obvious time... Why did you get and stay married then?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

john117 said:


> Captain Obvious time... Why did you get and stay married then?


We were very young. Neither of us believed in divorce.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I stay married because I feel the best revenge toward my wife is to keep her bound to the sub-optimal version of me. I will never flourish to the extent that I might if I were married to someone who enjoyed having sex with me and who I enjoyed having sex with. She will never be married to someone who flourishes in the sunshine of her love. I am the anchor she has chained herself to. I am steering the boat to the deepest part of the lake and throwing myself overboard. I will drag her down with me. Poetic justice. An O Henry story played out in real life in real time. Amazing to me that she cannot see where this is headed.
@uhtred: If you do not wish to follow in my footsteps, choose a different path. Revel in the things that money can buy. Do not contemplate what passion might provide.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Red Sonja said:


> uhtred said:
> 
> 
> > They see the desire for sex as unnecessary, maybe a little gross. *So they see no reason their partner should want something like that*.
> ...


@openminded would you mind addressing this POV?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Can you explain to me your reason for stating this, then? It is about you, it is not about OP, I get that. You say that you didn't state it was "correct" and that you don't believe everyone should think and behave as you do. In that case, then what was the point of stating it at all? Honest question.


As I said earlier, it was a mistake to include what "I" did.

It distracted from the point I was trying to make, which was: A lazy husband not helping around the house while drinking beer in his underwear watching TV is a problem and I'm going to have a limited amount of sympathy for him if he says that doing otherwise would be "emotionally difficult".


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Can you explain to me your reason for stating this, then? It is about you, it is not about OP, I get that. You say that you didn't state it was "correct" and that you don't believe everyone should think and behave as you do. In that case, then what was the point of stating it at all? Honest question.
> ...


Ok, again, your opinion, your values. Does this have anything to do with the OP?


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> @openminded would you mind addressing this POV?


I just can't relate to wanting sex. No malicious intent on my part. It's who I am.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am again speaking as a mod. 

Faithful Wife: You need to stop posting at buddy / employing a supervisory tone with him. 

Buddy has a right to post here - he made one unfortunate comment and immediately acknowledged it. 





Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, again, your opinion, your values. Does this have anything to do with the OP?


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red,

Humor me in traversing a decision tree. What core factors keep a marriage together?
- Sex
- Money
- Kids

And really sex is just a proxy for one of two things:
- Lust and/or
- A genuine desire to please your partner

An LD partner who wants to stay together for kids/money reasons will engage in guerilla warfare to maintain the marriage while having as little sex as possible. Part of that strategy is often blame shifting. The alternative is a conversation they correctly fear as likely to be marriage ending. You know - the one where they say that they don't much like sex (with you, maybe with anyone) and pretended early on to - get what they wanted from you. 

As far as U2 goes - I think she finds life with Uh far better than life alone. So she is doing a bunch of unfortunate stuff including some blame shifting. 





Red Sonja said:


> Nope, not buying this; it is disingenuous in the extreme; it is denying that humans are sexual creatures.
> 
> It is crap and LDs well know it. They know they are not normal sexually and so they use this projection as justification.
> 
> If a person is LD then they should own it and stop projecting dysfunction on the rest of humanity.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

I would make a large wager that if Uh became chronically ill, U2 would care for him. 






john117 said:


> Lots of things are unpleasant but we do them. Work for one 😀. Cycling for 30 miles at my age. My rear ends feels like I got carried away with lidocaine. But I do it, and enjoy it.
> 
> There's an amazing amount of rationalization going on here. Uh thinks everything is great in his marriage except sex. I thought so too. I rationalized like crazy.
> 
> Took me several years to snap out of it.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> I would make a large wager that if Uh became chronically ill, U2 would care for him.


I agree 100%. For the same reason she rationed intimacy all these years. 

Now, for extra credit, reverse the roles.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

john117 said:


> I agree 100%. For the same reason she rationed intimacy all these years.
> 
> Now, for extra credit, reverse the roles.


Already answered, she's essentially been 'chronically ill' for years.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The way his info has been presented leads me to believe she's never been into intimacy, chronic illness or not. If she's legitimately suffering from chronic illness then that's a different story.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok, again, your opinion, your values. Does this have anything to do with the OP?


It was in response to @MEM2020 saying that he had proof that having sex was emotionally difficult for an LD.

I believe the question of how difficult it is for an LD to do something he or she didn't desire (having sex) was relevant to the conversation.

I was pointing out that if we're going to use "emotionally difficult" as a reason not to do so, we'd have to consider it regarding other things that one might not prefer to do.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> I am again speaking as a mod.
> 
> Faithful Wife: You need to stop posting at buddy / employing a supervisory tone with him.
> 
> Buddy has a right to post here - he made one unfortunate comment and immediately acknowledged it.


No worries

@Faithful Wife

As far as values go, I don't believe in "right" or "wrong".

I believe in "effective" and "ineffective". Which is which depends on one's goal.

The value of "hard work, nose to the grindstone" is effective for attaining material wealth. If the goal is "personal enlightenment", then it's probably ineffective.

If the goal is a happy marriage that lasts (at least, lasts long enough to raise children) then I believe the values of compromise and putting forth your best effort to ensure your spouse's happiness is "effective".


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Why are you connecting her rationing of sex / low sex drive with her taking care of him. I don't understand that connection. 




john117 said:


> I agree 100%. For the same reason she rationed intimacy all these years.
> 
> Now, for extra credit, reverse the roles.


----------



## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> @uhtred I can admire your stance. You love your wife, even more than you "need" sex.


The question is, does she love him, or at least love him as much as he loves her...I would venture to say that is questionable. You don't play BS games with someone you love. You don't parade around in lingerie and then basically shut down all avenues of sex to someone you love. You make some kind of attempt to find a middle ground when you love someone.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Warrior73 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > @uhtred I can admire your stance. You love your wife, even more than you "need" sex.
> ...


If by "you" you mean yourself, then cool. You are you.

You can't speak for Mrs Uhtred, however.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> MEM2020 said:
> 
> 
> > I am again speaking as a mod.
> ...


Thanks for sharing your beliefs.

They still have zero relevance to Mrs. U, though.


----------



## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

Ynot said:


> Wow, I haven't read the entire thread, but a lot of the end of it. I can relate to the OP in so many ways. I think to me ex, sex was simply a means to the end (that she desired). Once she had her baby, sex with me was no longer important. She told me that none of her GFs liked to have sex with their husbands, it was just something they did to keep the peace. I don't know, maybe all of her GFs did feel that way. But what I do know is than many men and women risk everything they own to get a little and nations and empires have gone to war over it. So that never really made sense to me. She also told me she was just too busy to even think about having sex with me, but that never stopped her from meticulously planning her Girl's nights and weekends out or vacations I couldn't afford. She would give me five minutes as if this "gift" from her was all that was needed and then she could get ready to go shopping with her GFs. It caused a huge amount of resentment on my part.


"planning her girls nights and weekends"...Speaks volumes...She probably used you to get what she wanted (child) and either had feminist male hating syndrome, or she was cheating on you.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> It almost seems that a person like myself is hamstrung by an inability to go the outsourcing route. In many ways it appears to be one of the few workable solutions, unless you're willing to basically just bluff it--which I'm not.


Absent unyielding resolve, It's good you're not willing to bluff it.

When backed into a corner by an ultimatum, many tend to feel they have nothing to lose by calling the bluff. When ambushed the best chance anyone has is to turn and face that threat and fight through it.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Thank you.
> Its true, but at the same time its incredibly frustrating and I have to work hard to avoid feeling resentment.


If you have to work hard to avoid feeling resentment, you're struggling for that which isn't there.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Remember this post starts with "the strange case...."
> 
> She has said why she does this. She says that she likes to make me happy and dress in ways that I find attractive.
> 
> ...


It frustrates you yet when you share that with your wife, she dismisses that which you both know and in response you cede yourself.

Your problem isn't your wife.

Stand in front of your mirror.

It's okay to stop holding your breath, it's okay to let go.

The more time you invest, the more you want to feel your investment has been worth your effort. The sand is always falling through your fingers, yet you seem unwilling to accept that it has already gone.


----------



## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

Holdingontoit said:


> I agree that @uhtred is rationalizing. I am doing the same thing.
> 
> I believe U2 is a rape / abuse victim. H2 is. The way I interpret H2's response to sex is that it might feel OK while it is happening, but afterward she feels like she was forced to eat a fecal sandwich and wash it down with a urine spritzer. Or maybe more accurately, she so fully dissociates from her body while it is happening that her body is free to response to the physical sensation even though her mind is horrified and shocked and not enjoying it and trying to pretend it isn't happening. So the physical arousal or response is not indicative of whether the experience is psychologically enjoyable.
> 
> Buddy, suppose a group of guys tied you down and one of them gave you oral sex. Are you sure you would not get aroused? If you did get aroused and did have an orgasm, would you want all of us to discredit any claim you might make that you hated every second of it?


Response to sexual stimuli is not voluntary...female rape victims are capable of orgasm involuntarily during the traumatic experience...Male rape victims can also get erections and orgasm and it also is not voluntary.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I have - though slightly differently since this was when we still had some sexual activity.
> 
> She thought our sex live (her giving me a HJ every couple of weeks) was fine - that intercourse would be nice too but it was too uncomfortable. She thought I was being spoiled / unreasonable in wanting more frequency or variety.
> 
> I expect if I talked to her now, she would describe this a a temporary interruption until her hands get better. She will then apologize that there is "nothing else she can do". She has basically already said that.


A marital sex life that is/was at best a fortnightly hand job, would destroy my self-esteem.

I won't volunteer for death by a thousand cuts.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> Your wife caring and then executing the type of actions that you feel show "she cares" doesn't make it exactly so for everyone.
> 
> No, my ex didn't "care" that I was unhappy about the amount of sex we were having, not in the way you are using the word "care". That doesn't mean he wanted me to be unhappy. And it doesn't mean he didn't love me or wouldn't have helped me if he "could". It just meant that he saw that I was experiencing a state of physical sexual frustration that was affecting my mood, and that this is how I am wired, which is true. I am wired this way with or without him, before I met him and after. It is not his "fault" nor did he ever internalize my being "unhappy". He considered me able to work through my own frustration in my own time, and I learned to do exactly that. He treated me like an adult with a personal issue, which it was. If I whined about it or tried to put it on his shoulders in any way, he simply patted me on the head and said "sorry but you're going to have to learn how to be in control of your own sexuality, baby, I can't do it for you" (as one example of various ways he said this sentiment). After a couple years of us being together and me actually doing just that, learning how to be in control of my own sexuality, I could see how his maturity and his self-aware stance in this actually helped me and made me happier in the long run than what would have happened if he had had more sex with me instead.


The issue with using your own experience is that yours was not a sexless marriage FW. Having suffered through a true sexless marriage I can tell you it is very different to what you are saying here. Much easier to "learn how to control your own sexuality" when you are actually having sex than those that are in a real sexless marriage.

Sorry but it is one of those situations that is vastly different on paper than real life, vastly different.

I firmly believe through experience that a partner can love you and care about you while being sexless however they show very little care for the health of their marriage and that is why these marriages end, Not the lack of sex per se but the overwhelming dark cloud you live under when with a partner that shows through their lack of action that they do not care about the health of the marriage and in turn their partner.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Interesting. There are things that I know that other people enjoy, but I do not. Watching team sports for example. It just doesn't do anything for me - but I can understand the appeal for others. Similarly for a wide variety of popular activities that I don't enjoy.

Can you imagine enjoying sex even if you don't yourself, or does is just not make sense to you?

Do you enjoy non-sexual close contact - hugs etc?


Sorry to sound like I'm questioning you (OK, I am) but your represent a bit of information on something important to me that I don't understand. 







Openminded said:


> No sense of romance, no passion for him or anyone else, no fantasy, no need for physical sensation, happy never to experience any of it again.
> 
> Perhaps I'm at the far end of the spectrum.


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## Warrior73 (Jun 25, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> If by "you" you mean yourself, then cool. You are you.
> 
> You can't speak for Mrs Uhtred, however.


I'm not speaking for Mrs Uhtred...What I said is basically generalized behavior of people who "love" or say they "love" someone.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm convinced that she would - or would at least do as much as I would let her. 

I really don't think the problem is a lack of love. I think its a lack of interest in sex. 



MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> I would make a large wager that if Uh became chronically ill, U2 would care for him.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

How do you measure or compare love. 

I don't think either of us has been lacking - other than the issue of sex. 




Warrior73 said:


> The question is, does she love him, or at least love him as much as he loves her...I would venture to say that is questionable. You don't play BS games with someone you love. You don't parade around in lingerie and then basically shut down all avenues of sex to someone you love. You make some kind of attempt to find a middle ground when you love someone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It's a lack of interest in sex combined with a lack of inclination to sacrifice in this area of the marriage. 

By sacrifice I just mean to explicitly put you/your desires first. 

Other than the bedroom - I always put M2 first - always have. It's reflexive. And even in the bedroom - I try not to violate the golden rule. 





uhtred said:


> I'm convinced that she would - or would at least do as much as I would let her.
> 
> I really don't think the problem is a lack of love. I think its a lack of interest in sex.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Sex is important to me - but its not everything. 

I can love my wife and think that most of our marriage is good, while at the same time feel resentful that I'm being denied a normal sex life. 

Even for couples with an active sex life, sex is a fairly small percentage of the time you spend together. Is it worth abandoning the rest to fix that part? When I decide not to leave, it isn't because I can't, and it isn't because I don't care about sex. Its because, on balance, we are both happier if we stay married than if we divorce. (and yes, her happiness means a lot to me).

I would actually suggest that other people not make this choice, and I really will never have any way to know if it was right for me. 

I know that in addition to love, my decision is also influenced by inertia, social standing and pride - my favorite sin. To the best I can analyze myself, it's not influenced by fear. I don't *need* a wife, I'm just happier if I have one. 




Personal said:


> It frustrates you yet when you share that with your wife, she dismisses that which you both know and in response you cede yourself.
> 
> Your problem isn't your wife.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Your wife caring and then executing the type of actions that you feel show "she cares" doesn't make it exactly so for everyone.
> ...


I'm not using my experience as an example of what Uhtred (or you or anyone else in a sexless marriage) is experiencing.

Buddy asked me a direct question, that being "did your ex care that you were unhappy about not getting enough sex". My reply you quoted was only in response to his question.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm not using my experience as an example of what Uhtred (or you or anyone else in a sexless marriage) is experiencing.
> 
> Buddy asked me a direct question, that being "did your ex care that you were unhappy about not getting enough sex". My reply you quoted was only in response to his question.


Yes and that is a side topic. More trying to make the point that your experience is not overly relevant to the OP. None of us can make a judgement call either way on the OPs IRL situation however some of us have first hand experience of the end result reality of living in a sexless marriage and it is nothing like your experience.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

Have you discussed any constructive ideas? 

Like would she be okay with using male sex toys? This would take the pressure off the hands but it is still maintaining a bit of a intimate relationship. 

There is great new toys on the market for men now. 

Did you mention before that she is big into romantic stuff? Is this words of affirmation from you or does she like sensual stuff like massages etc. 

If you are feeling resentment, honesty could be a help, you are willing to compromise for her, will she do the same?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> John,
> 
> Why are you connecting her rationing of sex / low sex drive with her taking care of him. I don't understand that connection.


Built up resentment over years is not conducive to being a good caregiver, as my late mother in law found out the hard way.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MrsHolland said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not using my experience as an example of what Uhtred (or you or anyone else in a sexless marriage) is experiencing.
> ...


Again and respectfully Mrs H, I know that my experience isn't relevant and never said it was or implied it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Happiness is not a checklist graded on a curve, Uh. It's gestalt, greater than the sum of it's parts.

You're rationalizing as much as, and as well as, she does. If we - or you - had more details about her state of health perhaps we could be more understanding but all I see is a systematic effort to avoid intimacy and meter it down to zero.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Warrior73 said:


> The question is, does she love him, or at least love him as much as he loves her...I would venture to say that is questionable. You don't play BS games with someone you love. You don't parade around in lingerie and then basically shut down all avenues of sex to someone you love. You make some kind of attempt to find a middle ground when you love someone.


Maybe she loves him in her own way?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Interesting. There are things that I know that other people enjoy, but I do not. Watching team sports for example. It just doesn't do anything for me - but I can understand the appeal for others. Similarly for a wide variety of popular activities that I don't enjoy.
> 
> Can you imagine enjoying sex even if you don't yourself, or does is just not make sense to you?
> 
> ...


The obsession for sure doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see what there is to obsess about. I found it boring. Something that needed to be done in order to make my husband happy. I tried to focus in the moment but it was difficult. I could think of a million things I would rather be doing. 

I could blame my childhood. I could blame CSA. I don't. It's just how I am. I am not very fond of hugs or close physical contact. How could someone want that and also be sex adverse? I guess those of us who don't care for sex are more different than we are similar. 

I'm not at all like your wife. I would have never paraded around in lingerie. To me, that would have been teasing. False advertising. I knew I was my husband's ideal. That was obvious. I didn't flaunt that -- in public or in private. I couldn't change the way I look but I was careful with the presentation. I didn't ever want him to think I was teasing something I didn't plan to deliver. That's just wrong.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Maybe she loves him in her own way?


What would your husband's reaction be if you pulled the above stunt "expressing your love in alternative ways" on a regular basis? 🤔🤔


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

We all make our own decisions based on what is best for us (at least what we may think is best for us). I could not get past the resentment of continual rejection. I was/am a healthy adult male with fully functioning parts and libido and I loved my wife. I wanted to be connected with her. I wanted to share this part of who I was with her. She rejected that - on a regular basis. She had no desire for me or for sex. It was a disconnect that could not be overcome. Ironically I think the corner was turned when I was not satisfied with the passionless duty sex she offered once every other week or so. I needed more.
FTR, since I have gotten divorced. I have had as least as much sex as I would have had, had I remained married. The difference is it has been with a variety of women, in a variety of ways, and always full of passion and desire. Sadly though the element of connection is not there. I think mainly because me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> What would your husband's reaction be if you pulled the above stunt "expressing your love in alternative ways" on a regular basis? 🤔🤔


It would not be the same as uhtred's, that's for sure.

Honestly, I don't think either of us can imagine being in a sexless marriage.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I think the hands situation is just a bump in the road and a distraction from the bigger issue. Your wife is a post menopausal woman who you said needs to have regular intercourse in order for it to be comfortable when you do have it. Other than that, you don't report any medical limitations interferring with this kind of intimacy. Why is your focus not on building a sex life with her in this way? Why is the focus on the fact that she has a new hand ailment and THAT is why you will be celibate for the rest of your life?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> It would not be the same as uhtred's, that's for sure.
> 
> Honestly, I don't think either of us can imagine being in a sexless marriage.


Then there's no alternative facts, are there?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I think the hands situation is just a bump in the road and a distraction from the bigger issue. Your wife is a post menopausal woman who you said needs to have regular intercourse in order for it to be comfortable when you do have it. Other than that, you don't report any medical limitations interferring with this kind of intimacy. Why is your focus not on building a sex life with her in this way? Why is the focus on the fact that she has a new hand ailment and THAT is why you will be celibate for the rest of your life?


Because they're both rationalizing their actions to Oblivion rather than confront reality.

The lingerie show is not unlike the outfits my wife sometimes wears in public. I mean, she hits the treadmill / bike / gym 3 hours a day, might as well show it off. But that's not how she feels about it at home. Like Mrs Uh, she simply believes intimacy is for young people and she's happy with her alternative rationalization. Uh rationalizes his frustrations in the same way.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

john117 said:


> Because they're both rationalizing their actions to Oblivion rather than confront reality.
> 
> The lingerie show is not unlike the outfits my wife sometimes wears in public. I mean, she hits the treadmill / bike / gym 3 hours a day, might as well show it off. But that's not how she feels about it at home. Like Mrs Uh, she simply believes intimacy is for young people and she's happy with her alternative rationalization. Uh rationalizes his frustrations in the same way.


Yep, my ex used to spend hours everyday getting all made up. My friends used to think she was a hot commodity and how lucky was I to be taking care of it. The reality was it was "hands off, you might mess up my hair and make up" I often felt like I was living a lie.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Then there's no alternative facts, are there?


I don't think we can speak for them, john. Sexuality is pretty personalized and subjective.

If they are each willing to live as they are, then that is their business.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> Alex do you not see how this is so similar to your situation?
> 
> You describe A2's rigid insistence on Saturday sex. That you could initiate all you want the other 6 days of the week - and it is not happening.
> 
> The reason I am pushing this point is - of all the posters on this thread you have the best reason to feel anger by proxy at U2.


It is and it isn't. Difference being that when I (finally, at the insistence of many here) stopped whinging about it all, there was, and still is, a decided uptick. I did not 'allow' my wife to get to the point where Mrs. U is at, but it was getting close.

These last couple of months, I've _wanted_ less, and received more. It will never be at the level that I want, but life is all about compromise. Sex is no longer a pressure point for my wife, therefore she relaxes and goes with the flow more often than not. I stopped having these inane discussions about what I want/need and therefore putting pressure on her to come through. She knows what I want and need already.

The reason it wasn't happening during the week was partially my fault, too - the signals were all there to 'stay away', and therefore I did. Passivity at its finest. Over the past couple of months, there has been weekday (night) sex.

The funny thing is that I have finally listened to many people here, including you and FW, and there has been a shift in my situation - yet both of you are, in this thread, telling me I'm wrong, or are not in agreement with it.

Even when I win, I can't win!


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Alex,

I am truly glad to hear your situation has improved. I realize at times I likely come across as highly critical and that is not my intent.





alexm said:


> It is and it isn't. Difference being that when I (finally, at the insistence of many here) stopped whinging about it all, there was, and still is, a decided uptick. I did not 'allow' my wife to get to the point where Mrs. U is at, but it was getting close.
> 
> These last couple of months, I've _wanted_ less, and received more. It will never be at the level that I want, but life is all about compromise. Sex is no longer a pressure point for my wife, therefore she relaxes and goes with the flow more often than not. I stopped having these inane discussions about what I want/need and therefore putting pressure on her to come through. She knows what I want and need already.
> 
> ...


----------



## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I know that in addition to love, my decision is also influenced by inertia, social standing and pride - my favorite sin. To the best I can analyze myself, it's not influenced by fear. I don't *need* a wife, I'm just happier if I have one.


I can relate to this. Social standing and pride aren't very important to me, but I definitely understand inertia. I've been with my husband for 20 years, and to be honest, I can barely imagine life without him at this point. Yes, there are things I sometimes resent him for, and reading TAM makes it all very clear that what I take to be just a part of life, others wouldn't even begin to tolerate, not for a second. But there is also much that is good. And I would much rather enter my old age and retirement with someone I know and trust and enjoy than to go off pursuing some sort of ideal that may or may not be realized.

Of course, if you or anyone is deeply unhappy with the status quo, then it's time for a change. No one should stay when on balance staying will only cause misery. But at the same time, throwing over that which is actually good, a history, those deep bonds that are formed only over time in pursuit of "better", to me at any rate, just a recipe for continued dissatisfaction. No one is perfect. No one can be all we would want them to be. Is one downside worth trading in for another?

Sometimes, when I encounter the deliriously happy, I do doubt my own choices, and wonder if I shouldn't go for broke. But then, I've also seen deliriously happy turn into heartbreak too many times to really believe in it. Everything is a trade-off, and what we can and can't live with is up to the individual situation and context.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

"She no longer wants PIV because its uncomfortable."

wow you have it rough. 

There is a medication she can get from a gynecologist that thickens the internal surface of her vagina, so it will not be uncomfortable any more.

Also, you need to use a LOT of lubricant. this is obvious, right?

Sounds like she is an excellent candidate for hormone replacement therapy. She has no libido, but she DOES want to mercilessly abuse you mentally

if she is wearing sexy lingerie to turn you on, and then deny you any sex, that is cruel. Its called being a **** Tease. Tell her to stop. Also tell her enough is enough and you are thinking of divorcing her since she will not fulfill your sexual needs.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think we can speak for them, john. Sexuality is pretty personalized and subjective.
> 
> If they are each willing to live as they are, then that is their business.


Au contraire, a decade of psychology classes have taught me that we're a lot more alike than different. Much as I disagree with Maslow and his food pyramid of human needs, it feels there's some common baseline of expectations that's being seriously trampled here.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Au contraire, a decade of psychology classes have taught me that we're a lot more alike than different. Much as I disagree with Maslow and his food pyramid of human needs, it feels there's some common baseline of expectations that's being seriously trampled here.


It must ultimately be okay with both of them, John, or at least one of them would make a change.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

We did get a male sex toy but so far she hasn't wanted to use it. She is OK with using a vibrator to get me off, but I don't enjoy that. (She likes that because its quick). I'm willing to do sexual things for her and not get anything in return. 

She very much enjoys non-sexual intimate touch. Hugs, kisses, massages, cuddling on the sofa etc. She gets lots of that. She just rarely wants "sex", which is to say anything involving genitals. 

I don't know what else I can do to compromise. I'm willing to do anything she wants. 




MrsAldi said:


> Have you discussed any constructive ideas?
> 
> Like would she be okay with using male sex toys? This would take the pressure off the hands but it is still maintaining a bit of a intimate relationship.
> 
> ...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> The funny thing is that I have finally listened to many people here, including you and FW, and there has been a shift in my situation - yet both of you are, in this thread, telling me I'm wrong, or are not in agreement with it.
> 
> Even when I win, I can't win!


The only issue I've been challenging you on in this thread is this: "Therefore, the only conclusion is that she does not put the same importance on the marriage as he does."

This is not something you or I can determine from the TAM 10,000 feet.

At times in your threads, people have said similar to you about your wife (or that she simply doesn't "love you"). I have never agreed with those sentiments about your marriage, either. I know your wife loves you, I have no reason to think she places less importance on the marriage than you do, and I have no reason to think Mrs. U places less importance on it, either. Your wife and Mrs U clearly love their husbands and nothing either of you have said has sound like either of them don't value their marriages.

Both of your wives obviously place less importance on sex than you or Mr U do. But that does not automatically mean either of them place less importance on the marriage itself or that they do not love you both.

When we are talking about a true LD, which it seems both your wife and Mrs U are, we (as HD people) cannot superimpose how WE think and feel over how THEY think and feel with any accuracy.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I'm willing to do sexual things for her and not get anything in return.
> 
> ........
> 
> I'm willing to do anything she wants.


She knows both of these things. That's why when you try to step up and say "hey, I need more" she basically treats this as a tantrum you are having. You have shown her that what she is giving you is enough. Then you turn it around once a year or so and say it isn't enough. She gets irritated, tries for a short time, then gives up again because you show her again that you will do anything she wants and give to her with no expectation of getting anything in return.

You can't really convince her at this point that it isn't enough for you because you've shown it is.

Then you are stuck with the resentment. But the resentment is caused by you not being more honest and being too passive. 

You also said in a thread way back that you were raised to believe that wanting sex was evil and sinful, and therefore when you get rejected this triggers that feeling, so you do not push against it because it still makes you feel bad about yourself.

And you've revealed recently that your pride would prevent you from a divorce (I took that to mean that you've put on a happy face all these years and others believe you are happily married, so to divorce would dash what people think of you).

There was another thread at one point about how she bought special lingerie for your birthday but you didn't actually think it was flattering to her. But you didn't say so, you just mentioned it looked uncomfortable. Instead of telling the truth.

All of this points back to you not being able to state your own truth for fear of doing so making you appear evil, less prideful, or somehow insulting your wife.

Yet you are the one who has put yourself in this situation. You may want to consider individual counseling to deal with this stuff. To find a way to love yourself more, so that expressing your desires or doing things that may disappoint someone else is not such a painful thing for you to do. Also obviously, being taught that wanting sex was evil or wrong is something that still lingers in your psyche.

I think you feel you have expressed yourself to Mrs U over and over, but from what you've described, IMO you haven't actually expressed your real truth to her ever.

Maybe you can just live with the resentment and that will be the only part of your marriage you are unhappy about, and you can still be happy and live out your lives together. That would be the obvious option for you at this point, because to you it must seem far too difficult to actually express the truth (given everything I just said above). If you do that, you may still be happy with that choice. No one can think or feel for you. It might be worth it. I know you do love her.

But I actually think you are cheating her out of the truth. She is unaware that her husband feels the way he does because you've made it so that she can never find out your truth. So she goes along in her own world thinking things are fine, but they are not really that fine to you.

It is your choice and your life. It is ok to do or not do anything else, and just ride it out and enjoy the things you love about each other. Your tolerance for not expressing your truth and for holding resentment is probably a lot higher than most people, so for you it may be the only choice you want to make.

If you can at least see how you are the one who set it up this way and stop wondering why she is the way she is, you might get some peace out of that, though.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jade,

The bold part - is a relief to me to read. I also think this. We have stuff like that. And my acceptance of it is for the same reasons as yours. 






wild jade said:


> I can relate to this. Social standing and pride aren't very important to me, but I definitely understand inertia. I've been with my husband for 20 years, and to be honest, I can barely imagine life without him at this point. Yes, there are things I sometimes resent him for, and *reading TAM makes it all very clear that what I take to be just a part of life, others wouldn't even begin to tolerate, not for a second*. But there is also much that is good. And I would much rather enter my old age and retirement with someone I know and trust and enjoy than to go off pursuing some sort of ideal that may or may not be realized.
> 
> Of course, if you or anyone is deeply unhappy with the status quo, then it's time for a change. No one should stay when on balance staying will only cause misery. But at the same time, throwing over that which is actually good, a history, those deep bonds that are formed only over time in pursuit of "better", to me at any rate, just a recipe for continued dissatisfaction. No one is perfect. No one can be all we would want them to be. Is one downside worth trading in for another?
> 
> Sometimes, when I encounter the deliriously happy, I do doubt my own choices, and wonder if I shouldn't go for broke. But then, I've also seen deliriously happy turn into heartbreak too many times to really believe in it. Everything is a trade-off, and what we can and can't live with is up to the individual situation and context.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

Your perceptiveness and analytical skills are among the best I have ever seen. 




Faithful Wife said:


> She knows both of these things. That's why when you try to step up and say "hey, I need more" she basically treats this as a tantrum you are having. You have shown her that what she is giving you is enough. Then you turn it around once a year or so and say it isn't enough. She gets irritated, tries for a short time, then gives up again because you show her again that you will do anything she wants and give to her with no expectation of getting anything in return.
> 
> You can't really convince her at this point that it isn't enough for you because you've shown it is.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Uh,

If you were inclined towards selecting one advisor from the motely crew on this thread - FW is the clear choice. 

1. She is entirely on board with your aversion to using high risk tactics 
2. Supportive of your overall posture towards remaining married
3. Has absolutely no chip on her shoulder regarding LDs in general and U2 in particular 
4. Her strategy and tactics will be compliant with the golden rule 

And - one last - call it a prediction. If you go down the path she is recommending - U2 will end up respecting and loving you more. Not less. 





Faithful Wife said:


> She knows both of these things. That's why when you try to step up and say "hey, I need more" she basically treats this as a tantrum you are having. You have shown her that what she is giving you is enough. Then you turn it around once a year or so and say it isn't enough. She gets irritated, tries for a short time, then gives up again because you show her again that you will do anything she wants and give to her with no expectation of getting anything in return.
> 
> You can't really convince her at this point that it isn't enough for you because you've shown it is.
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes the difference is fascinating. U2 is and I both enjoy casual physical contact, hugs, kisses. We usually spend time every evening sort of cuddled together watching something on TV.

U2 sees that and lingerie as not sexual. I find that very strange.



Openminded said:


> The obsession for sure doesn't make sense to me. I just don't see what there is to obsess about. I found it boring. Something that needed to be done in order to make my husband happy. I tried to focus in the moment but it was difficult. I could think of a million things I would rather be doing.
> 
> I could blame my childhood. I could blame CSA. I don't. It's just how I am. I am not very fond of hugs or close physical contact. How could someone want that and also be sex adverse? I guess those of us who don't care for sex are more different than we are similar.
> 
> I'm not at all like your wife. I would have never paraded around in lingerie. To me, that would have been teasing. False advertising. I knew I was my husband's ideal. That was obvious. I didn't flaunt that -- in public or in private. I couldn't change the way I look but I was careful with the presentation. I didn't ever want him to think I was teasing something I didn't plan to deliver. That's just wrong.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Because she isn't willing (or able?) to. The hands thing is just interesting because it eliminates the one thing she was still willing to do regularly for me. 

There are of course other things she could do, but she won't. This is just the final step.

I don't know how to build a sex life with her. I am willing to do anything she wants. She is not unable or unwilling to do anything for me. (except maybe get me off with a vibrator). 



Livvie said:


> I think the hands situation is just a bump in the road and a distraction from the bigger issue. Your wife is a post menopausal woman who you said needs to have regular intercourse in order for it to be comfortable when you do have it. Other than that, you don't report any medical limitations interferring with this kind of intimacy. Why is your focus not on building a sex life with her in this way? Why is the focus on the fact that she has a new hand ailment and THAT is why you will be celibate for the rest of your life?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She has though about HRT but doesn't like the risks, and I don't want to pressure her for medication she doesn't want. 

Yes we use lots of lube. She agrees (in principal) that if we had sex often it would be comfortable and doesn't need medication. She agrees (in principal) that we should have sex often. Its just that in reality there is always some reason not to - which means that in reality she does not want sex often, and realizes that means not having any. 

If she wanted sex, there are many ways to fix this. 




Talker67 said:


> "She no longer wants PIV because its uncomfortable."
> 
> wow you have it rough.
> 
> ...


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Yes the difference is fascinating. U2 is and I both enjoy casual physical contact, hugs, kisses. We usually spend time every evening sort of cuddled together watching something on TV.
> 
> U2 sees that and lingerie as not sexual. I find that very strange.


Yes, I find it very strange as well. 

Lingerie, obviously, is extremely sexual. If I had ever worn it around my husband that would have meant I was willing to have sex. Otherwise, it's just a tease. And if you have told her that, and she still does it, then she enjoys teasing you (and not in a good way). Look all you want but don't even dream of touching? I think not.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I really do think I've made it clear. I suppose I could say it more often, but would that help, or is that just constantly pestering her? Other than leaving, I don't see what I can do to make my unhappiness more clear. 

The problem is that I *am* willing to live without sex rather than get divorced.

I view the birthday lingerie as a separate issue. She really was trying to make me happy - and that matters far more to me than whether that particular set of lingerie was hideous. For me a lot of the value in lingerie is the intent to be enticing. 

The last discussion I really did make it completely clear how unhappy I was and what I needed in a sex life to be happy. She said no, she wasn't willing to do that. 

She knows. Or at least she has very clearly been told. She just is unable / unwilling to change. 




Faithful Wife said:


> She knows both of these things. That's why when you try to step up and say "hey, I need more" she basically treats this as a tantrum you are having. You have shown her that what she is giving you is enough. Then you turn it around once a year or so and say it isn't enough. She gets irritated, tries for a short time, then gives up again because you show her again that you will do anything she wants and give to her with no expectation of getting anything in return.
> 
> You can't really convince her at this point that it isn't enough for you because you've shown it is.
> 
> ...


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

@uhtred ok so you told her you are unhappy and she said no, she's still unwilling to do anything else.

So what does you being unhappy look like in your day to day interactions with her?

If it looks indistinguishable from you being happy, how is she able to really believe you are unhappy?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Time for some cold analysis.

Let's say he takes action A. That could be anything from standard 180 to marital warfare. Let P(A) be the probability of said action A working with outcome X. Of course, 1 - P(A) is the probability of it not working, with outcome Y.

Now assess if you're better of taking the risk of A, which might work, might not. Or, do nothing.

This is basic human programming. If P(A) is good, then it's worth the risk. But if a 180 is only giving a 10% chance, then that action A isn't worth the outcome in case it flops.

All the above is really saying is, "what's her breaking point"? We've seen other famous cases here where the LD decided to nuke it all before compromising. We might see one more by early next week 😎. 

To assess P(A) is easy. Does she strike you as someone motivated to have her way to the end, or is she able to comprehend, and work towards, the big picture? 

To assess P(A) easily, you have to know how her mind works. Little psyops experiments or careful observation help a lot here... Does she value the state of being married enough to actually do something about it, or is she in the "the f with it" mode? 

Even if you haven't taken experimental economics, this is the equivalent of, "what reward or risk would take to change her mind"? That's really all there is.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

john117 said:


> Time for some cold analysis.
> 
> Let's say he takes action A. That could be anything from standard 180 to marital warfare. Let P(A) be the probability of said action A working with outcome X. Of course, 1 - P(A) is the probability of it not working, with outcome Y.
> 
> ...


I think if U honestly walked away, she would be devastated, but still wouldn't change or even take responsibility for the marriage problems. She just doesn't see this the way he does so to her that would simply be a confusing crisis and a walk away husband. She'd put it all on him.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think if U honestly walked away, she would be devastated, but still wouldn't change or even take responsibility for the marriage problems. She just doesn't see this the way he does so to her that would simply be a confusing crisis and a walk away husband. She'd put it all on him.


Agreed. 

Unfortunately this puts her in the Beyond section of Bed Bath and Beyond in terms of psych evaluation.

NormalPeople (tm) do not fear intimacy to the extent they're willing to blow up a marriage to avoid it. 

Which is the whole point of this exercise.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't want to go around moping all the time - and I don't really feel like that all the time anyway. (despite how it may seem from my posts here).

I'm less affectionate that I would be otherwise - I'm living with a good roommate / friend, not a lover, but that is about it. 

I seems to me that acting unhappy all the time would just come across as needy - which is distinctly non-sexy. I don't want to whine or beg.... or threaten. 

She can believe me or not. I don't want to make the rest of our lives together miserable because of this problem. I can leave if I want, but staying and acting miserable seems like a bad choice. 

I think she really is psychologically unable, not unwilling - but that is a fuzzy definition. I think she wants to want sex, but just doesn't. 




Faithful Wife said:


> @uhtred ok so you told her you are unhappy and she said no, she's still unwilling to do anything else.
> 
> So what does you being unhappy look like in your day to day interactions with her?
> 
> If it looks indistinguishable from you being happy, how is she able to really believe you are unhappy?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I think that radiating unhappiness is counterproductive. 

I admit in advance that the approach below - is not something I am capable of - but believe (if I needed to) that it would amplify M2's desire levels.

Playbook - chapter: I want to .... fill in the blank

The exercise here is one where all choices are evaluated as if you were single. 
- who would you socialize with
- where would you vacation and how often

-----------
The intent is not to be vindictive it is rather to be self focused. 
-----------





Faithful Wife said:


> I think if U honestly walked away, she would be devastated, but still wouldn't change or even take responsibility for the marriage problems. She just doesn't see this the way he does so to her that would simply be a confusing crisis and a walk away husband. She'd put it all on him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I don't want to go around moping all the time - and I don't really feel like that all the time anyway. (despite how it may seem from my posts here).
> 
> I'm less affectionate that I would be otherwise - I'm living with a good roommate / friend, not a lover, but that is about it.
> 
> ...


And if she does not want it, it is not meaningful to you, correct? If it does not come from inside her, it does not do anything for you?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes.

That really is the problem. I don't want sex as much as I want to be desired, and she is not able to do that. 

Sex with an uninterested, or worse an unhappy partner is not a positive thing for me. For the same reason prostitutes have never held any appeal. There are other women I'm attracted to but there are all women who I know and like, and who clearly have some level of attraction for me. 



jld said:


> And if she does not want it, it is not meaningful to you, correct? If it does not come from inside her, it does not do anything for you?


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

When desire isn't there then there's a reluctance bordering on dislike -- certainly disinterest -- for what's about to happen. There's no anticipation. No excitement. Absolutely no need. Once things progress, it's usually fine -- or maybe even more than fine -- for the moment. But once the moment is over the reset is to reluctance. That's the natural state. And it has to be overcome each time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Openminded said:


> When desire isn't there then there's a reluctance bordering on dislike -- certainly disinterest -- for what's about to happen. There's no anticipation. No excitement. Absolutely no need. Once things progress, it's usually fine -- or maybe even more than fine -- for the moment. But once the moment is over the reset is to reluctance. That's the natural state. And it has to be overcome each time.


When desire isn't there one ought to be transparent about it and explain it up front. Waiting to see if desire builds dating wise may not be optimal for all involved.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MrsHolland said:


> I firmly believe through experience that a partner can love you and care about you while being sexless however they show very little care for the health of their marriage and that is why these marriages end, Not the lack of sex per se but the overwhelming dark cloud you live under when with a partner that shows through their lack of action that they do not care about the health of the marriage and in turn their partner.


This ^ 

This is what I tried to impart upon my wife. That it's not about _sex_ - it's about all of the above. I don't think she believed me at first, hence all the backlash and immobility. I'm pretty sure she finally gets it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

john117 said:


> When desire isn't there one ought to be transparent about it and explain it up front. Waiting to see if desire builds dating wise may not be optimal for all involved.


Today that might happen but not so much in my day. Especially when you're young and inexperienced.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

"Trying to figure her out is just your minds way of keeping you on your own worn groove in the earth." -- FW


uthred,

What do you think of those words from FW?

I've not read the entire thread, but I've read much postings of your previous account (pun intended).
I've also been lingering in my own situation, which shares similarities with yours.

Here's what I suspect, with apologies in advance if I'm unreasonably projecting:

* It's not her you need to seek to understand. There are no answers there that can be leveraged to change your life or her life. You have seen thousands of times the response particular actions and words (or inaction and silence) have on her behavior. You have seen the futility of seeking lasting effects in a consciousness not your own, through the limited indirect influences one has from the 'outside'. You cannot change her. You cannot make her want to change herself. You should stop -- deliberately -- and consider whether and why it might be tempting to continue such a quest for years longer. IME, the risk of doing so is very high, unless you wake yourself up and make a point to figure out what it is you get from it. "Meaningful answers" is not going to be one of the rewards. (In my case, I think the most direct driver is the temporary relief I get out of it -- relief from having to accept I alone am the one responsible for making choices that lead to a contented happy life and that it's no one else's job to make it happen for me; underneath that is the self-doubt, the fear that I'm not really lovable or worthy of love -- making it kind of scary to ask for it, or set out on different waters seeking the love I don't deserve, feeling I'm lucky to get the crumbs I'm begrudgingly given. YMMV, but, ask yourself what it is you are avoiding by staying focused on getting 'her' to provide you affection and loving actions she has proven is unnatural for her to give).

* You accept a life less than you wanted. Less than you want. And, you don't seem happy about it. If you refocused your energy towards looking at what choices you have, what you choose to value, why it is someone like you would accept only crumbs despite needing more... If you took back from her the power to make you happy or unhappy, and put it comfortably into your own hands, then perhaps you could make a decision to stay or leave that would have some "settled" feeling to it, and you could be at peace with it. If you're the one responsible for your happiness, and you choose to include her or exclude her from your life, then perhaps you can find some worry-less peace. If your happiness is in her hands, for whatever reason (e.g., fear, obligation, guilt -- or, perhaps, because you seek relief from having to see the depth of what you are missing by busying your self with "figuring her out" or "figuring out what you are doing wrong"), then you will remain stuck.

"Running out of time standing still
Something's gotta change or nothing will"

Have you tried redirecting your focus inward
setting aside what influences you can have on her
setting aside trying to understand her thoughts, motivation, behavior
It's easy enough to try
Unless something about it is scary to your unconscious
Which would make it all the more important


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MEM2020 said:


> I think that radiating unhappiness is counterproductive.
> 
> I admit in advance that the approach below - is not something I am capable of - but believe (if I needed to) that it would amplify M2's desire levels.
> 
> ...


Yes I was just speculating based on john's quote. U isn't going to leave and don't think he should.


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## pbj2016 (May 7, 2017)

This whole thread is frustrating to me and for you because all of the excuses why your life partner will not change. You cannot make someone do something they clearly do not want to do. If you state that toys move around when you are out of town then she evidently enjoys sex...just not with another person. She may have reached a point in her life that sex with another person is too much like work. Her excuses back up what I'm saying. No way that a HJ brought on arthritis that is not cured with time. 

You are providing for all her emotional needs and the need for physical intimacy is your need and not hers. 

I think it is clear that your wife is lazy. As we age, we get comfortable and if it isn't her need then she sees no reason to get uncomfortable. 

I used to live your life until I told my wife that I could be friends and roommates and co-parents with lots of other women. I could not however ethically fill my need for physical intimacy. This revelation actually put her in a funk and shocked her to the point that she heard something I did not say but she got the point. She thought I said that I can get action from that hot woman down the street if she wasn't putting out. Not what I said in the least bit but that is what she heard. I told her my hand was no longer willing to fill in for her. The shock led to further conversations where I for the most part get what I need because I ask for it. Our mutual sex life has improved greatly but it took me some 20 years to get there. 

We both now have medical issues that complicates the marriage bed but probably have the hottest physical intimacy of our marriage now more than we ever had. If your wife's problem was a point of low desire, that can be fixed with hormone therapy. If she is worried about the risks for HRT, find a dr that specializes in HRT and not her PCP or even GYN. They have no idea what they are doing when it comes to properly balancing hormones. But again the problem isn't LD because I think it has been demonstrated that she is at least RD. 

Stop trying to get your wife to be a mind reader. Tell her exactly how you feel including confronting her about toys that don't include you and teasing that doesn't include a happy ending. Also do this in a neutral place and time. Confronting your spouse at bedtime or whenever and where ever you would normally expect intimacy is counterproductive in my experience (another hard lesson learned ). 

Hopefully you gain resolution.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

FW,

Understood and agreed.

The origin of my comment was that in the past Uh has described a dynamic that I am fluent with. U2 has sort of a narrower comfort range than Uh - and he is happy to make her happy so typically they do what she wants. 






Faithful Wife said:


> Yes I was just speculating based on john's quote. U isn't going to leave and don't think he should.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

_
The last discussion I really did make it completely clear how unhappy I was and what I needed in a sex life to be happy. She said no, she wasn't willing to do that._

well that could not be any clearer. you have offered her alternative ways to give you sex, and she could not be bothered. You have suggested medical relief and she has chosen to not investigate it. You DO want to keep your marriage going, presumably for other reasons (she must be be a great cook or something)

you need a hall pass to go have sex with a FWB. Find a married woman who is in the exact same sexual predicament as you are. With your spouses approval, start using each other for physical sex. I would not be surprised if your wife can give you a suggestion on one of her sex starved friends , and she might even set it up for you. Then at the end of the day, return to your sexless marriages and do those other things you like to do.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

jld said:


> It must ultimately be okay with both of them, John, or at least one of them would make a change.


You do not understand how some of us live in fear, shame, and self-loathing. Hating who we are and what we do but never summoning the courage to make a change.

Yes, it is exactly as awful a way of existing as you imagine it to be.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> If you can at least see how you are the one who set it up this way and stop wondering why she is the way she is, you might get some peace out of that, though.


Unlikely. I have understood and accepted that I am the problem and it is my fault I am stuck here. It brings me no peace. Just more self-loathing.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Yes the difference is fascinating. U2 is and I both enjoy casual physical contact, hugs, kisses. We usually spend time every evening sort of cuddled together watching something on TV.
> 
> U2 sees that and lingerie as not sexual. I find that very strange.


 @uhtred: She has to see those things as non-sexual in order to protect herself.

Most cheaters, while they are cheating, tell themselves that their spouse is horrid or treats them horribly. even when any objective observer would say that is not true. Why? Because the cheater knows they are treating the betrayed spouse horribly, so the only way not to feel terrible about what they are doing is to view the betrayed spouse as horrid and deserving of horrid treatment.

Same for U2. She knows she teasing and frustrating and rejecting you would be a hurtful thing to do. So, to maintain her good view of herself, she absolutely prevents herself from seeing hugs and cuddling and lingerie as sexual. If you asked, she could pass a polygraph that they are not. Because that is what she needs to believe in order not to believe she is torturing you.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Warrior73 said:


> Response to sexual stimuli is not voluntary...female rape victims are capable of orgasm involuntarily during the traumatic experience...Male rape victims can also get erections and orgasm and it also is not voluntary.


Yes, exactly my point.

So many HD say "but the LD enjoys it while it is happening, why don't they want to do it more often"?

Because response to sexual stimulus is not voluntary. Yes, the LD "enjoys" it while it is happening. Does not mean they want it to happen again.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> @uhtred: She has to see those things as non-sexual in order to protect herself.
> 
> Most cheaters, while they are cheating, tell themselves that their spouse is horrid or treats them horribly. even when any objective observer would say that is not true. Why? Because the cheater knows they are treating the betrayed spouse horribly, so the only way not to feel terrible about what they are doing is to view the betrayed spouse as horrid and deserving or horrid treatment.
> 
> Same for U2. *She knows she teasing and frustrating and rejecting you would be a hurtful thing to do. So, to maintain her good view of herself*, she absolutely prevents herself from seeing hugs and cuddling and lingerie as sexual. If you asked, she could pass a polygraph that they are not. Because that is what she needs to believe in order not to believe she is torturing you.


Unless, and I'm not saying this is the case, she teases with lingerie explicitly to hurt him.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> You do not understand how some of us live in fear, shame, and self-loathing. Hating who we are and what we do but never summoning the courage to make a change.
> 
> Yes, it is exactly as awful a way of existing as you imagine it to be.





Holdingontoit said:


> Unlikely. I have understood and accepted that I am the problem and it is my fault I am stuck here. It brings me no peace. Just more self-loathing.


It does sound like an awful way to live one's life. No doubt. 

But anyone who is letting this fear, shame, and self loathing rule their lives also needs to understand and accept that they themselves are responsible for their fate. This is way beyond relationship territory, and what your spouse may or may not be doing to (or in response to) you. It is about you and why you stay within this cycle of self-destruction.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think so. I can't claim to be a mind reader, but I think she really wants to make me happy in general and tries hard to do so - she just has an issue with sex. 



Malaise said:


> Unless, and I'm not saying this is the case, she teases with lingerie explicitly to hurt him.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Strangeness continues. Yesterday she wanted "sex". After some cuddling, backrubs, kisses etc, I took care of her with a vibrator and fingers (accidentally made things a bit too quick). She offered to take care of me - then offered to give me oral. The offer was sincere but I could tell she was just offering out of guilt and really didn't want to do it. 

I suggested instead she could use the vibrator on me (something she is happy to do when we have sex) as part of some light bondage play (which I like). She seemed very relieved to have some option other than oral.

Afterwards she seemed happy. Talked about how we have to do that more often etc. Enjoyed the rest of the evening together. Told me what a nice day it had been before going to sleep.


Without our past experience I'd view this as success - sexual activity that she enjoyed and was happy to do more often. Sadly though this happens most times we have "sex" and I expect it will be a couple of weeks before anything happens again, and she will again be very limited in what she will do. 


BTW, I said no to oral because she hates doing it, so that itself is a turn-off, and it drastically limits what she is willing to do to where its mostly frustrating anyway. 

We are just so sexually incompatible. Very different idea of reasonable frequency (~3X/week for me, 1 month for her), and I enjoy a wide range of things and like variety, she has a very limited set of things she will do. 

Idiot that I am though, I'll remain hopeful for a while, somehow believing that it will be different this time and things will actually get better. Intellectually though I know that they won't.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sex - without desire - is a no go for a lot of people. 

And at some level she finds his lack of acceptance for how she is - unloving.





Talker67 said:


> _
> The last discussion I really did make it completely clear how unhappy I was and what I needed in a sex life to be happy. She said no, she wasn't willing to do that._
> 
> well that could not be any clearer. you have offered her alternative ways to give you sex, and she could not be bothered. You have suggested medical relief and she has chosen to not investigate it. You DO want to keep your marriage going, presumably for other reasons (she must be be a great cook or something)
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> You do not understand how some of us live in fear, shame, and self-loathing. Hating who we are and what we do but never summoning the courage to make a change.
> 
> Yes, it is exactly as awful a way of existing as you imagine it to be.


Not necessarily. 

An old friend was blinded at a young age. Instead of self loathing he became a very successful businessman, a loving father and husband, and a national advocate for the blind in my country.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

wild jade said:


> It does sound like an awful way to live one's life. No doubt.
> 
> But anyone who is letting this fear, shame, and self loathing rule their lives also needs to understand and accept that they themselves are responsible for their fate. This is way beyond relationship territory, and what your spouse may or may not be doing to (or in response to) you. It is about you and why you stay within this cycle of self-destruction.


Agreed. No change is possible unless and until the person in pain realizes they are part of the problem and they have the power to make changes and address the situation differently in the future. If that causes them to make changes, great. If it causes them to accept that they are making a choice, and to make peace with that choice, great. Some of us choose to remain in the cycle of self-destruction and simply hate ourselves more for it. I guess we are masochists.

Not everyone who achieves understanding of self finds peace.

@john117: You are correct that not everyone who is unhappy or faces difficulty turns to self-loathing. Great when someone chooses to make lemonade from lemons.

Some of us do not have it so bad but continue to choose self-loathing. I was not saying that self-loathing is inevitable. I was saying to @jld that not everyone who refuses to change is OK about the things that bother them. Some of us are simply too fearful or too lazy or too invested in self-destruction to change. A person can hate their situation and still decide not to change and still not reach peace or acceptance of their choice.

@uhtred: Always glad to hear when you have sex. Just don't get your hopes up that it will occur again anytime soon.

Oh, and about the lingerie. I asked H2 if she was trying to seduce me last night when she kept spreading her legs right in front of my face. She said "no, I was just being playful, we are married and I should be able to be playful and show off in front of my husband." Your wife may think it is a good thing when she prances around in lingerie. Even if you have told her that it is a tease and you don't like it. In your wife's view of marriage, a husband ought to enjoy that, so if you don't, that is your problem and not her issue to address. Except to keep doing it to see if you have managed to fix yourself.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

wild jade said:


> But anyone who is letting this fear, shame, and self loathing rule their lives also needs to understand and accept that they themselves are responsible for their fate. This is way beyond relationship territory, and what your spouse may or may not be doing to (or in response to) you. It is about you and why you stay within this cycle of self-destruction.


You cannot know what is going on inside other people's lives and marriages. For that reason, the above is incorrect as a blanket statement and, frankly I am weary of hearing it.

I stayed in my marriage 16 years longer than I should have and it had *nothing to do *with fear, shame or self-loathing. My reasons for staying involved promises and obligations to others (not my exH). I kept my promises and subsequently left when my obligations were completed.

Sometimes it is about honour and doing what is right and, *nothing to do *with self-destruction.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Red and Holland both strike me as absolutely straight shooters. 

I really believe that quality, is what made the magnitude of their respective partners deception extraordinarily difficult for them to grasp. 

The closest analog I have for this is - that M2 has a particular phobia which I truly refused to consciously acknowledge for the first 20 years of marriage. It was a phobia/and behavior management pattern that is absolutely foreign to me. 

And she hid it best she could in the same type of deceptive, confusing and contradictory patterns that really LD folks engage in with their partners. 

Most folks who want you to stick around - try not to reveal the super hard stuff before you reach the point of no return. 




Red Sonja said:


> You cannot know what is going on inside other people's lives and marriages. For that reason, the above is incorrect as a blanket statement and, frankly I am weary of hearing it.
> 
> I stayed in my marriage 16 years longer than I should have and it had *nothing to do *with fear, shame or self-loathing. My reasons for staying involved promises and obligations to others (not my exH). I kept my promises and subsequently left when my obligations were completed.
> 
> Sometimes it is about honour and doing what is right and, *nothing to do *with self-destruction.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think some people must have a very strange idea of what constitutes teasing, and what is fun. Teasing - followed eventually (that day) by hot sex is wonderful. Teasing not followed by sex isn't. 

The lingerie thing really doesn't bother me anymore. Since I know it isn't an offer for sex, it isn't really arousing. 

Sort of sad - the constant rejection has resulted in my gradually finding my wife less physically attractive. I find that I think of her as beautiful and sexy much less often. I suspect that won't come back. Too bad - I was quite capable of finding her beautiful for as long as we lived. 





Holdingontoit said:


> snip
> @uhtred: Always glad to hear when you have sex. Just don't get your hopes up that it will occur again anytime soon.
> 
> Oh, and about the lingerie. I asked H2 if she was trying to seduce me last night when she kept spreading her legs right in front of my face. She said "no, I was just being playful, we are married and I should be able to be playful and show off in front of my husband." Your wife may think it is a good thing when she prances around in lingerie. Even if you have told her that it is a tease and you don't like it. In your wife's view of marriage, a husband ought to enjoy that, so if you don't, that is your problem and not her issue to address. Except to keep doing it to see if you have managed to fix yourself.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> Red and Holland both strike me as absolutely straight shooters.
> 
> I really believe that quality, is what made the magnitude of their respective partners deception extraordinarily difficult for them to grasp.
> 
> ...


It's complicated lol

Deception is the crime IMHO, not being LD. Someones level of sexual drive or style of sex should be owned but because many are not able to own it and be true to themselves they use (possibly subconsciously) deception to cover it all up.

You are so perceptive MEM and that is why even when I don't always agree (or feel confronted by your words) I always "like" your posts.

So MrH V1 was deceptive but it was not through bad intention, it was through lack of self awareness and fear. Just imagine being a LD man with a HD woman, a woman that you loved deeply but knew you could not fulfill, the only option was to get life to a point of no return ie kids, investments, travel and a very full and busy life. But it was never going to work for the rest of life because the resentment on both side became palpable. If MrH V1 had of been "man" enough to have the dialogue when given so many opportunities I honestly would have been much more able to live a better life with him. Love would have trumped sex but as it turned out resentment trumped everything.

MrH V2 is a completely different creature. As you know he was very smart and revealed some things from his past to me at exactly the right point in time, not too soon that I would have pissed him off but far enough along that I was in love and could accept and appreciate his honestly.

Deception is the crime. This is always so facinating for me, used to be cathartic but I am way past needing that now. I use these revelations and insights to have open and honest dialogue with my children. I want them to know that the most important thing is compatibility.

As for the very adorable and charming Mr U, I wish you well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Holland,

Your post is QFT. 

And as such, I will reinforce your theme. M2 has gracefully navigated this LD/HD chasm by being remarkably transparent. 




MrsHolland said:


> It's complicated lol
> 
> Deception is the crime IMHO, not being LD. Someones level of sexual drive or style of sex should be owned but because many are not able to own it and be true to themselves they use (possibly subconsciously) deception to cover it all up.
> 
> ...


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> She offered to take care of me - then offered to give me oral. The offer was sincere but I could tell she was just offering out of guilt and really didn't want to do it.
> 
> I suggested instead she could use the vibrator on me (something she is happy to do when we have sex) as part of some light bondage play (which I like). She seemed very relieved to have some option other than oral.
> 
> ...


It's a catch-22 with this, and I know how you feel, trust me.

On one hand, you cowtowed to her.

On the other - she offered.

One thing I've learned over the years is that an offer is an offer is an offer - and to take people up on them.

For 'nice guys', sensitive men, beta males - whatever you want to call guys like us - it's hard to do so.

It's this mindset of "oh, she doesn't really want to do this, so I don't want her to do it" that ultimately kills guys like us.

But - she offered. Therefore she _does_ want to do it. But all we can think of is 'she hates it', 'she's just doing it for my sake'. Well... yeah, she is. And that's the point.

It ends up being this vicious circle. We want our partners to do this, this and this, and we explicitly tell them these are things we want, or would like. Then they offer them to us, and all we can think of is how much they don't want to do them, so we decline.

Listen, U, I get it, and I'm right there with you in this. It's a hard feeling to shake, but you have to do it. When she offers you oral sex, accept that offer. At that moment, it's about you. It's not about her. She may not want to do the actual act, but she wants to do it for you.

Oral sex is almost always about this, anyway - about the receiver. The giver gets pleasure from giving. What that pleasure is, exactly, is person-specific. It may not be a sexual gratification, and it doesn't have to be. You're reasonably confident that your wife will not get sexually excited by giving you oral sex - but she offered. What she gets out of it is not your concern, IMO, because it's about you. But she's getting something out of it, otherwise she would not have offered to do it.

My wife says she does not like giving oral sex, either. Yet it's almost always part of our sex life (foreplay, finishing, whatever). Like your wife (and probably a high percentage of married men) a standalone BJ is rare. But when it's offered, I take it.

What guys like us (and frankly, most guys) have to understand is that our wives are likely not the types to just take our penises out at some random time when we aren't expecting it and give us a BJ to completion. After all, this is the fantasy, isn't it? And yes, some women will do this. It's happened to me before, and I'm sure it's happened to you. But our wives are not the types to do this, are they? Instead, it comes in the form of an offer on occasion.

So when the offer comes - take it. She offered because she wanted to. WHY she wanted to is not your concern - and that's the hardest part of this to rectify in your brain. Trust me, I know.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Red Sonja said:


> You cannot know what is going on inside other people's lives and marriages. For that reason, the above is incorrect as a blanket statement and, frankly I am weary of hearing it.
> 
> I stayed in my marriage 16 years longer than I should have and it had *nothing to do *with fear, shame or self-loathing. My reasons for staying involved promises and obligations to others (not my exH). I kept my promises and subsequently left when my obligations were completed.
> 
> Sometimes it is about honour and doing what is right and, *nothing to do *with self-destruction.


FWIW, I was responding to holdingontoit's post, not pretending to know what is going on in your head. Or anyone else's. *He* was positing that fear, shame, and self-loathing are indeed reasons why *some* people stay where they are at. And I was merely suggesting that the comments *he* was objecting to were still pretty sound advice, even in a situation as extreme as his.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a tricky problem. 

She offered oral. What she means by that is pretty limited - (sorry if TMI) but she won't take my penis in her mouth (except on extremely rare occasions - maybe 4X in 30 years), she will lick a little. So while its nice, its also sort of frustrating. The afterwards almost certainly I would have heard complaints about how "the only thing you seem to enjoy is something I really hate doing". 

If she really offers it freely, I accept happily. This time though it was more of her feeling guilty that there was nothing she could do for me, so she would do this to avoid feeling guilty. 

Partial oral sex from someone who finds is disgusting just isn't all that desirable. 

If it was "I'm happy to do this to please you even though I don't like it", it would be different. 

Still maybe I should have accepted. 






alexm said:


> It's a catch-22 with this, and I know how you feel, trust me.
> 
> On one hand, you cowtowed to her.
> 
> ...


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

uhtred said:


> Sort of sad - the constant rejection has resulted in my gradually finding my wife less physically attractive. I find that I think of her as beautiful and sexy much less often. I suspect that won't come back. Too bad - I was quite capable of finding her beautiful for as long as we lived.


I wonder if you told her this, what would her reaction be? 

I would definitely not like it and be concerned about my husband finding others attractive, it would be a wake up call to change my priorities. 

Perhaps you could suggest sex therapy as an activity, just to understand each other differences, maybe there could be a solution down the road. 


Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Its a tricky problem.
> 
> She offered oral. What she means by that is pretty limited - (sorry if TMI) but she won't take my penis in her mouth (except on extremely rare occasions - maybe 4X in 30 years), she will lick a little. So while its nice, its also sort of frustrating. The afterwards almost certainly I would have heard complaints about how "the only thing you seem to enjoy is something I really hate doing".
> 
> ...


Yes, I think you should have. And again, I know what the feeling is surrounding it, but it's one that dudes like us need to wrap our brains around, at least some of the time.

As for the complaining afterwards - it sounds harsh, but that's her problem. Don't offer to do something if you're going to complain about it later on.

As many posters (many of them women) have said here numerous times, men who "take what they want" (in loose terms, of course) are generally more desirable.

Being offered something, such as you were, and saying "no thanks, I know you don't _really_ want to, so it's okay" is, dare I say it, weak.

Listen, your wife has a very different take on sexuality than even mine does - we know that. I tend to think that your wife's views on the subject are innate - she's just always been this way, doesn't _quite_ get it, can't understand, etc. The way you describe her sometimes makes me think of, and I mean this in purely psychological terms, a 12 year old who knows the basics of sex and sexuality, but only the basics.

On a related note, my ex wife used to give oral sex. As I've said here before, she started having issues with her jaw, to the point where it would occasionally lock open (mostly during oral sex, occasionally for other reasons). She continued giving oral sex as much as she used to (a few times a month) for about a year, with the jaw issue happening every 4th or 5th time, I'd say. She was a trooper, I'll give her that. The last time I got a BJ from her, her jaw wound up locked open for a solid 20 minutes, and there were tears. I was the one to tell her 'never again'.

From that point on, she did exactly what your wife considers 'oral sex' - tongue only. Wasn't my suggestion. She just did it. No, it wasn't the same, but it was something, it DID feel good, and it was an effort on her part, therefore I appreciated it.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In U's case I don't think he should ever "take what he wants". His wife wouldn't welcome it and it would play too hard against the shame he still feels from childhood messages about sex being evil. It's also just not his personality. I believe he would rather she "take" him.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> In U's case I don't think he should ever "take what he wants". His wife wouldn't welcome it and it would play too hard against the shame he still feels from childhood messages about sex being evil. It's also just not his personality. I believe he would rather she "take" him.


I kinda get what alexm is saying though. It isn't "take what he wants" exactly. More like "don't refuse because you're spending so much time worrying about her comfort level, and can't bear to see her even the slightest bit unhappy."

And he has a point, I think. I've done things that are quite unpleasant for me just to make my husband happy or to make his life easier. And I really don't need him to be grateful or apologetic about it. As long as he appreciates it, and doesn't completely take me for granted, we're good. I'll say no if I really can't or really don't want to.


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## pbj2016 (May 7, 2017)

If OS is what you want and the Mrs doesn't like it there might be a reason as simple as she doesn't like the "taste" of your skin. Use a flavored cream on your tip that is intended for OS.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> In U's case I don't think he should ever "take what he wants". His wife wouldn't welcome it and it would play too hard against the shame he still feels from childhood messages about sex being evil. It's also just not his personality. I believe he would rather she "take" him.


It's being offered to him. He's technically not 'taking'. He's accepting.

FWIW, I don't think it's necessarily the oral sex and his wife's lack of interest in it that's making him say no. I think it's the offer itself. Offering to do something like that is, in itself, indicating that one doesn't really want to in the first place. She should just do it, IMO.

What I'm saying is he should just take it when offered, and get over how his wife feels about the matter. The offer is there, accept it. He's not forcing her to do anything.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> I kinda get what alexm is saying though. It isn't "take what he wants" exactly. More like "don't refuse because you're spending so much time worrying about her comfort level, and can't bear to see her even the slightest bit unhappy."
> 
> And he has a point, I think. I've done things that are quite unpleasant for me just to make my husband happy or to make his life easier. And I really don't need him to be grateful or apologetic about it. As long as he appreciates it, and doesn't completely take me for granted, we're good. I'll say no if I really can't or really don't want to.


Bingo.

I've never done anything sexual with anybody if I - and she - wasn't the slightest bit comfortable with it, and I wouldn't condone that kind of thought process.

The issue I have with U's handling of this is that it's counter-productive to his overall problem. Mrs. U is asking if he would like her to do something. She's literally giving her consent without him even asking for it.

His concern for her in this regard is admirable, BUT, it also completely reinforces her behaviour.

Again, it sounds harsh, but her feelings towards doing something that SHE offered to do, and potentially does of her own volition, at her own suggestion - should not be of concern for anybody but her. The truth of the matter is that her behaviour in this regard is not normal. If you occasionally DO these things - of your own volition - don't ***** and moan about how awful it was after doing them. And then do it again a month later.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

wild jade said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > In U's case I don't think he should ever "take what he wants". His wife wouldn't welcome it and it would play too hard against the shame he still feels from childhood messages about sex being evil. It's also just not his personality. I believe he would rather she "take" him.
> ...


I just think U can't get past her feelings though and then it's a turn off to him.

I can't blame him on that either, I'd feel the same. 

I do think maybe he could get better and more mutual enjoyment with her if he explored some other things that don't require her to do anything she actively dislikes. I'm not sure he's willing to go to far with anything at this point though, because her rejection of him and his sexuality is too big in his mind all the time.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> I just think U can't get past her feelings though and then it's a turn off to him.
> 
> *I can't blame him on that either, I'd feel the same.
> *
> I do think maybe he could get better and more mutual enjoyment with her if he explored some other things that don't require her to do anything she actively dislikes. I'm not sure he's willing to go to far with anything at this point though, because her rejection of him and his sexuality is too big in his mind all the time.


Yeah, I get it. Been there, done that, and not only was it a turn off, the sex was crappy Good sex requires a certain level of abandon, I think.

That said, I have accepted sex, even knowing he would not be into it and that would be crappy, without worrying about my partner's feelings. I just went with the flow and made it as good for me as possible. 

Not saying it's ideal or anything. Just one way to get by.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

```

```



Malaise said:


> Unless, and I'm not saying this is the case, she teases with lingerie explicitly to hurt him.


i was thinking this was the case. At least subconsciously. Otherwise, why not wear sweatpants and a baggy shirt.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Talker67 said:


> ```
> 
> ```
> i was thinking this was the case. At least subconsciously. Otherwise, why not wear sweatpants and a baggy shirt.


From the way U has talked about this, I don't believe it's the case, even subconsciously.

The way he described it recently in this post, was that to her it's for his enjoyment, so she does it. Men like looking at scantily-clad women, so she's walking around, scantily-clad. Perhaps she thoroughly enjoys her husband gawking at her and getting excited.

Where she differs from many (most) other people is that she truly doesn't understand why this wouldn't be enough. As though this is completely and utterly separate from sex. Being sexily dressed does not equate sex to her.

U and I often end up in each others threads because our wives are eerily similar in many ways. There ARE differences, however the underlying similarity is that there's a disconnect at some point in the process with how our wives view sexuality as a whole. While I can tell you that my wife, for example, would completely understand the implications of walking around in sexy lingerie, there are many other areas in which she doesn't seem to connect the dots, as it were.

A prime example of this is that for many years, I have told her that initiating sex by saying "let's go" is not sexy. Nor is simply lying under the covers, naked, waiting for me to come to bed. It's entirely appropriate behaviour at times, but not ALL the time. She simply can not, for the life of her, understand (or remember) that making out with me, or touching me sexually, or literally taking my penis out - those kinds of things - are 1000x more preferable to just about any man, as opposed to "let's go".

The reason is simple - she does not respond to me sexually touching her as a form of initiation. For her, sexual touching comes during sex/foreplay. Not in the hallway, or the kitchen, or on the couch. Once we're in bed, naked, I can do pretty much anything to her. But caress her breast in the living room? Nope.

So she projects her own feelings towards sexual touch outside of the bedroom onto me. I can't honestly say if she's ever touched my penis in any way, shape or form, outside of the bedroom, or even over my pants. Sex does not start, even a little bit, until we're literally, actually _having_ it.

For those of you who have read any of my other threads or replies here on TAM, this is why there's no spontaneity in my sex life. She won't allow it. There has to be some sort of verbal acknowledgement that sex is going to happen. It literally never 'just happens'.

I believe U's wife is extremely similar in this regard, just that it manifests itself in different ways - some that are odd, such as the lingerie thing. Sexual activity of whatever sort does not = sex. Sex is never implied - it has to be acknowledged and almost agreed upon. In this very thread, U is telling us his wife 'offered' oral sex, while they're already engaged in sexual activity - as opposed to her taking the reigns and just doing it.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@alexm: I think this behavior is very common among rape victims. Requiring specific verbal consent before anything happens and at each point where the type of activity changes. Understandable since rape is about control and removing control, so consent becomes paramount.

The problem is for women who are a little (or more) sub and who display responsive desire, their body is going to react best if the man is dominant and adopts a bit of "just do it". That puts what her body needs in conflict with what the traumatized part of her brain needs. And so you end up with someone whose sexuality is internally inconsistent and often short-circuited. The solution is to heal the traumatized part of themselves so they can relax and allow their trusted partner to "just do it". But since so many victims desperately tell themselves that the rape left no lasting impact and hence there is no traumatized part of themselves that needs healing, they often resist seeking treatment and thus remain internally conflicted by sex with their long time partner.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Holdingontoit said:


> @alexm: I think this behavior is very common among rape victims. Requiring specific verbal consent before anything happens and at each point where the type of activity changes. Understandable since rape is about control and removing control, so consent becomes paramount.
> 
> The problem is for women who are a little (or more) sub and who display responsive desire, their body is going to react best if the man is dominant and adopts a bit of "just do it". That puts what her body needs in conflict with what the traumatized part of her brain needs. And so you end up with someone whose sexuality is internally inconsistent and often short-circuited. The solution is to heal the traumatized part of themselves so they can relax and allow their trusted partner to "just do it". But since so many victims desperately tell themselves that the rape left no lasting impact and hence there is no traumatized part of themselves that needs healing, they often resist seeking treatment and thus remain internally conflicted by sex with their long time partner.


I don't disagree.

Both U and I are fairly certain that our respective wives were not victims - however that doesn't mean they weren't, of course. But yes, there are similarities in behavioural characteristics for sure.

Frankly, I think my wife just isn't a sexual being, the way most people are. She claims she's always been like this. The word 'autistic' has been thrown around towards both my and U's wives, and I can say that I don't see it in general, with my wife, but in regards to sex and sexuality, I do. The brain is a weird and wonderful thing.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

They say "the medium is the message." I think that's the problem with articulated "offers". They are at best a left-brained projection of what's supposed to be a visceral desire, and thus they are suspect on their face because they telegraph indifference and calculation. 

I don't ask a woman I'm naked with if she wants me to kiss her or go down on her or take her from behind; I just do it (while being alert for stop signs). "Taking what you want" is identified with male sexuality, but desultory verbal negotiation is a lame experience for anyone. It's what makes the idealized collegiate protocol for obtaining "affirmative consent" such an eye-roller. 

It isn't ideal, but if you're LD or RD (or whatever) and have resolved to offer your partner "duty sex," might as well go the extra half-yard and _just do it_ like you're into it, instead of asking "do you want me to...?" Whether you hit your own stride mid-way thru or not, starting off that way will be more erotic and will make the act and the gift far more believable, or at least easier to accept.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Phil Anders: Agreed.

But after a few times of getting slapped or eyes scratched along with a shouted "never try that again unless you ask and I tell you it is OK", you realize that the only option available is a lame experience. Those of us foolish enough to think that is better than nothing eventually learn the error of our thinking. Unfortunately, sometimes wisdom comes too late for practical application.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Yeah, I wouldn't stay in a situation where my non-verbal initiation evoked that kind of hostility, but if you do it's clear you must adapt to avoid getting one head or the other bitten off! 

I'm not so much advising HD partners to be more handsy, even though we often hear how "responsive desire" must apparently be met with indefatigable optimism and immunity to rejection. I'm mostly addressing LD's who don't wish to be refusers--it would be best to resolve the core desire issue, but if you're gonna fake it you might as well not half-ass it.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

alexm said:


> A prime example of this is that for many years, I have told her that initiating sex by saying "let's go" is not sexy. Nor is simply lying under the covers, naked, waiting for me to come to bed. It's entirely appropriate behaviour at times, but not ALL the time. She simply can not, for the life of her, understand (or remember) that making out with me, or touching me sexually, or literally taking my penis out - those kinds of things - are 1000x more preferable to just about any man, as opposed to "let's go".
> 
> The reason is simple - she does not respond to me sexually touching her as a form of initiation. For her, sexual touching comes during sex/foreplay. Not in the hallway, or the kitchen, or on the couch. Once we're in bed, naked, I can do pretty much anything to her. But caress her breast in the living room? Nope.
> 
> So she projects her own feelings towards sexual touch outside of the bedroom onto me. I can't honestly say if she's ever touched my penis in any way, shape or form, outside of the bedroom, or even over my pants. Sex does not start, even a little bit, until we're literally, actually _having_ it.


I'm quoting myself here..

My wife and I have had a pretty good amount of time by ourselves lately. Younger kid's away at camp, older one has a job and a girlfriend.

We had sex a couple of days ago (during the week! Oh my!) and it _started_ on the couch. This happened the day I typed the above, after I had done so, so I couldn't help but chuckle.

Anyway, nutshell version is that she insisted we go up to the bedroom. I had a little back and forth (playful) about simply doing it right there. I even suggested we go to the couch downstairs, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about windows and neighbours and such. But nope, bed only. I certainly didn't whine about it, but I did mention that it might be exciting to get busy somewhere _other_ than our bed.

However, contrary to what I said above, she did actually touch me before we got upstairs. To be fair, I literally took it out so it was right there, so she didn't initiate the touching, but all the same. I genuinely can't remember the last time she touched me sexually outside of the bedroom or shower.

But in retrospect, she eventually got up and walked upstairs, making it so that I would have to follow - so a small form of control, I imagine. But for somebody who literally told me years ago that she prefers that I be more aggressive and otherwise take 'control' of our sex, it also seems that it's only under her umbrella rules for doing so at times. Like "take me, but only when and _where_ I say so". :scratchhead: So even when it's 'spontaneous', it's ultimately not.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> Speaking as a LD/ND female, I have no concept of desire. That's totally non-existent. During the decades I was married I could and did deliver sex on demand -- only because I wanted to please my husband -- but I could not deliver desire and that's what my husband wanted most. When you don't desire you don't see the importance of sex. And you don't see why it's important for anyone else either. It just doesn't make sense. That was my experience anyway.


Amazing. I feel exactly the same as you, and my experience of marriage was exactly the same. 

I've never felt what people call desire, and I've always wondered what it would be like to feel it, even for one day. One hour.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I'm talking about an emotional act that brings our bodies together and we shed our "separate-ness" for a short but blissful time. The pleasure is secondary, and there's no pleasure at all, regardless of what part of my body gets stimulated, if there is no attachment.


Wow. This is nothing like my experience of sex. For me, there's nothing emotional about it, or pleasurable, or blissful. It's just a physical thing that people do with their bodies, like walking or eating toast or going to the bathroom. There's no aspect of "shedding separate-ness" about sex for me, either.

It's amazing, the variety of human experience. If sex is really such a transcendent experience for some people, no wonder they enjoy having it.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Thank you.
> Its true, but at the same time its incredibly frustrating and I have to work hard to avoid feeling resentment.
> 
> It seems to *me* that it would be so easy for her to change and make our marriage completely wonderful. Intellectually I understand that its not easy for *her*.


It would be just as easy for her to change as it would for a heterosexual to become a homosexual, or vice versa. Or for someone who enjoys sex to decide they don't like it any more. It's easy! Just change!


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> Smiling. Good questions. I'm not sure I have the answers.
> 
> I view sex as boring beyond belief and it's difficult for me to believe anyone finds it important (although I know people do). My body can respond but I didn't find it especially physically enjoyable. The ability to O is something my body can do but I don't find it that interesting . My husband was a gorgeous man and I saw that but it meant nothing to me physically. I loved him but I have no real concept of romantic love because, to me, that involves desire and I don't have that. Maybe it was that I loved him as a friend. I've never thought about that. But I wanted to make him happy and so he got sex whenever he wanted -- but without desire and that wasn't what he wanted. When I got married I was fairly inexperienced and we both hoped I would improve with time. I never did.


I'm right there on the same page as you regarding sex. Boring beyond belief.

But I loved my husband (and a couple of previous boyfriends) intensely and romantically. I wanted to spend as much time with him as possible, go out and do things we liked, talk together, and make plans for the future. That, to me, is romantic love. I spent a lot of time thinking about how to make him happy and worrying about him if he had a problem or a health issue.

I had plenty of sexual experience before marriage. Enough to know that the whole "pleasure" thing was never going to happen for me.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> No sense of romance, no passion for him or anyone else, no fantasy, no need for physical sensation, happy never to experience any of it again.
> 
> Perhaps I'm at the far end of the spectrum.


I agree about not having a need or desire for physical passion, but what I found romantic and passionate about marriage/living together was that intense pair-bonding mindset of happiness together, that strong "you and me against the world" feeling, and traveling and having new adventures to experience side by side. That's what I think of as love. Not something bodies do, as in insert Tab A into Slot B.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> I stay married because I feel the best revenge toward my wife is to keep her bound to the sub-optimal version of me. I will never flourish to the extent that I might if I were married to someone who enjoyed having sex with me and who I enjoyed having sex with. She will never be married to someone who flourishes in the sunshine of her love. I am the anchor she has chained herself to. I am steering the boat to the deepest part of the lake and throwing myself overboard. I will drag her down with me. Poetic justice. An O Henry story played out in real life in real time. Amazing to me that she cannot see where this is headed.


But she can disembark at any time, unilaterally. As she may when she comes to a better understanding of what you are up to.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I'm convinced that she would - or would at least do as much as I would let her.
> 
> I really don't think the problem is a lack of love. I think its a lack of interest in sex.


Precisely! You've got it!


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> Yes, I find it very strange as well.
> 
> Lingerie, obviously, is extremely sexual. If I had ever worn it around my husband that would have meant I was willing to have sex. Otherwise, it's just a tease. And if you have told her that, and she still does it, then she enjoys teasing you (and not in a good way). Look all you want but don't even dream of touching? I think not.


Lingerie, to some women, is just pretty underwear. I know it is to me. It's frilly and girly and lacy. Most fashion magazines will showcase different sets of lingerie in different fabrics for different looks: tailored, shiny, embroidered, and so on. 

I wore fancy garter belts and silk stockings for decades because I found plain pantyhose so aesthetically offensive.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes. I just wish there was more awareness of how much range there is in human sexuality among young people. We've come to accept a wide range of sexual interests, but there seems to be much less talk about the wide range in the strength of interests - from none to it being critical for someone happiness. 



2020hindsight said:


> It would be just as easy for her to change as it would for a heterosexual to become a homosexual, or vice versa. Or for someone who enjoys sex to decide they don't like it any more. It's easy! Just change!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Just wanted to say thanks to Open-minded and 2020hindsight for sharing insight into a point of view we don't see represented here very often. It is much appreciated to see things from the other side of the fence.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Yes. I just wish there was more awareness of how much range there is in human sexuality among young people. We've come to accept a wide range of sexual interests, but there seems to be much less talk about the wide range in the strength of interests - from none to it being critical for someone happiness.


While I readily agree, and happily accept that the strength of interest can certainly vary, I think the major talking point should be in regards to how those who have little to no interest (or for that matter, those that have extreme interest) in sex should be responsible for disclosing this prior to entering into a relationship.

Given that the majority of people are likely compatible with one another in this area, and the outliers (ND/extreme LD or HD) are relatively rare - I do believe that those who fall into those 'categories' have the responsibility to disclose this information.

Unfortunately, it's often not, and worse, it's often 'hidden' (purposefully in some cases, but without malicious intent of course) as a form of self-preservation.

The problem as I see it is that so many HD or 'normal' desire folks do not find this out about their partners until a relationship has progressed, sometimes right into marriage.

There's no doubt that I love my wife (and Uhtred his), however had she told me within the first few months that her sexual desire, in the way that we know it, did not exist, then I (or Uhtred) would have at least been able to make an informed choice in regards to something that is high on our priority list for a successful relationship and marriage.

The problem also lies within people like myself and U, unfortunately. My wife did not 'come out' as ND until 3-4 years into our relationship. Up until that point, she went through the motions, as it were, and there was no real indication that her sexuality (drive, interest, etc.) was that much different than mine. I knew early on that I had a higher drive and interest than her, but the scope of this gap was not apparent until well after there was a major commitment on both our parts.

Would I have chosen to stay with her had I know this earlier on, or right from the start? In all likelihood, probably.

The reality (my reality, anyway) is that I don't judge people on things like this - and I think, unfortunately, that it's a topic that many people feel they will be judged for, therefore they hide and/or lie about it for fear of this. Until, of course, they can no longer hide or lie about it.

So for me, and I imagine most others, it is not my wife's lack of sexual desire that's the real issue - it's that she did not disclose this to me until a certain point. That's what's disingenuous about it all, IMO.

Up until that point, sex was a relative non-issue to me, and that's the great irony of it all. We were together romantically, and we had sex. Once, twice, three times a week - whatever. I didn't keep track, I didn't worry about it or stress about it. It happened when it happened, it felt natural when it did. Hell, I don't think I even ever brought it up as a topic of conversation with her. It was a real non-issue.

Then she made it an issue, and it's never been the same since.

And the unfortunate byproduct of it all is that the sex we have now never feels natural. There's an element of planning or scheduling to it, and I know in the back of my mind that she does not have the desire for it, sexually, anyway. She definitely doesn't do it "for me", it's not duty sex or throwing me a bone or something she feels she has to do - not at all. She does enjoy sex. But completely removing that element of mutual sexual desire and attraction has impacted my experience. When I thought it was present, it was a non-issue, other than making me feel good from a sexual perspective. She wants me, she's attracted to me, etc.

When people have a 'normal' sex life, you know that your partner wants _you_, _your_ body, _your_ penis, etc. _as well as_ the emotional aspects of it. So from my standpoint in regards to sex with my wife, I feel like I could be anybody. I know that she loves ME, and that she does not want to have sex with anybody else - it's not that. It's that from a purely sexual perspective, it doesn't matter to her, if that makes sense.

And from a purely personal standpoint, I have never known what it's like to be sexually and physically attractive to someone. This is nobody's fault, least of all my wifes, but it's still there. My ex wife really only had romantic love for me, which was enough for a certain period of time. Physically, I was not her 'ideal', and she planted that seed very early on. I knew almost from the get-go with her that she had a preference for tall men, slimmer men, men with long hair, etc. She had a physical type, and I wasn't it. I didn't turn her off, so to speak, but I didn't rev her engines, either. Both she and I figured that the romantic bond we had would be enough, and for a long time, it was. I was 'handsome', I was 'cute', but I was never 'hot' or 'sexy'. In the end, she left me for a taller, slimmer guy with long hair. Big surprise...

And now I'm with someone who doesn't have a type at all, which I suppose is better than not being her type, but still. Not being physically or sexually attractive to your partner is not ideal in the slightest. For most of us, including me, knowing that your partner wants _all_ of you is a huge part of sex.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

alexm said:


> While I readily agree, and happily accept that the strength of interest can certainly vary, I think the major talking point should be in regards to how those who have little to no interest (or for that matter, those that have extreme interest) in sex should be responsible for disclosing this prior to entering into a relationship.
> 
> Given that the majority of people are likely compatible with one another in this area, and the outliers (ND/extreme LD or HD) are relatively rare - *I do believe that those who fall into those 'categories' have the responsibility to disclose this information.
> *
> ...



So many points that ring true.

People who are LD or ND have an absolute obligation to reveal thus to their partners as/before the relationship deepens.

As pointed out above for some it's self preservation and for some it's fraud.

Unfortunately we find out after being hip deep in commitment.


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## pbj2016 (May 7, 2017)

@alexm bait-n-switched. I know I would have trouble with that if it was me.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This is a huge part of the problem. 

As a ND you tend to desire someone you love - the two feelings are tied together. So when your partner doesn't desire you it feels like they don't love you. (no matter what words they say). 





alexm said:


> snip
> And from a purely personal standpoint, I have never known what it's like to be sexually and physically attractive to someone. This is nobody's fault, least of all my wifes, but it's still there.
> snip
> .


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Our sex life has picked up a lot in the last 2 weeks. I'm very happy, but with the usual background worry that its just going to disappear again. We'll see.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> While I readily agree, and happily accept that the strength of interest can certainly vary, I think the major talking point should be in regards to how those who have little to no interest (or for that matter, those that have extreme interest) in sex should be responsible for disclosing this prior to entering into a relationship.
> 
> Given that the majority of people are likely compatible with one another in this area, and the outliers (ND/extreme LD or HD) are relatively rare - I do believe that those who fall into those 'categories' have the responsibility to disclose this information.
> 
> ...


I can understand this perfectly. While my wife and I have great sex pretty frequently, and I do believe her when she says I am the best shes ever had, I don't really feel any special attraction from her. I am attractive enough I suppose, but don't really feel as if I am her ideal, that with regards to sex, I could be anyone. That reinforced realization has definitely affected how I feel about our sex life, that it doesn't really feel natural.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> Like "take me, but only when and _where_ I say so". :scratchhead:


Unfortunately, the rule seems to be "Take me, but only when I *want* to be taken, but I'm not going to tell you when I want to be taken and, actually, I may not actually want to be taken, it just seems like a nice fantasy for me"

I don't know that they can be "blamed" for this (attraction and sexual desire are what they are), but it would be nice to at least bring it out in the open.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> While I readily agree, and happily accept that the strength of interest can certainly vary, I think the major talking point should be in regards to how those who have little to no interest (or for that matter, those that have extreme interest) in sex should be responsible for disclosing this prior to entering into a relationship.


The problem is that the (soon to be) LD doesn't know that they'll be LD in a couple of years (mostly).

My question would be: "If either of us found ourselves to not be spontaneously aroused at some point in the future (like after a couple of years or after children) what do you think should be done about it?"

That might actually tell you something. 

It would also be nice if during premarital or pre-childbirth counseling it was pointed out that a loss of spontaneous arousal is common and to explain responsive desire.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

samyeagar said:


> I can understand this perfectly. While my wife and I have great sex pretty frequently, and I do believe her when she says I am the best shes ever had, I don't really feel any special attraction from her. I am attractive enough I suppose, but don't really feel as if I am her ideal, that with regards to sex, I could be anyone. That reinforced realization has definitely affected how I feel about our sex life, that it doesn't really feel natural.


I've read a lot that says ~80% of men have spontaneous desire vs 20% of women.

Women often have spontaneous arousal in "new relationship" situations and then revert to responsive desire.

It seem that men who expect women's sexuality to mimic their own are often setting themselves up for a lot of disappointment.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Our sex life has picked up a lot in the last 2 weeks. I'm very happy, but with the usual background worry that its just going to disappear again. We'll see.


Don't worry, it will .


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Our sex life has picked up a lot in the last 2 weeks. I'm very happy, but with the usual background worry that its just going to disappear again. We'll see.


Stop worrying. No need to borrow trouble. Deal with a decline back to the mean when it occurs, not before.

If you find yourself worrying, punch yourself in the face. Really, not kidding. Make it clear to your subconscious that there will be a price to pay for triggering unwanted worry. Your subconscious is not, in this case, helpfully allowing you to prepare against a future risk. It is sabotaging your ability to enjoy the moment. Tell it firmly and unmistakably to shut the heck up.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> This is a huge part of the problem.
> 
> As a ND you tend to desire someone you love - the two feelings are tied together. So when your partner doesn't desire you it feels like they don't love you. (no matter what words they say).


Yes and no. It took me a while to wrap my head around that, but I know my wife loves me. At first though, it was difficult.

As I said in my rather lengthy post, it's knowing that - sexually - I could be anybody. Sexually and physically, I'm not special. I'm not "hers". My body, my face, my appearance, my penis - none of it matters. None of it mattered to my ex wife, none of it matters to my current wife.

It doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman - being sexually and physically desired is important. It's not the be-all, end-all (for most...) but when it's not there, it's evident.

As I said, for the first few years, until my wife 'came out', sex was a non-issue. We had it, it was good, I felt good, etc. I just naturally assumed there was a physical/sexual attraction, and it made me feel good - especially coming from a marriage in which I was not her ideal in that regard. For my ex wife, I was not her type. For my current wife, she doesn't _have_ a type.

Here's the thing: in my previous marriage, it didn't bother me as much as one would think. I didn't feel inferior, or ugly, or sub-par. I excelled in most other aspects of marriage. I was (and still am) a good husband, partner, friend, and now step-parent. I didn't repulse my ex wife, sexually or physically, I just didn't turn her on simply by her looking at me. It was fine.

Until... she met someone who ticked all those boxes. THEN I felt like crap. I got my ego back when I met my current wife, and for a few years, all was fine. Then the realization that she doesn't even _have_ a type, and what I look like doesn't matter in the slightest.

So, not exactly back to square one, but close.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> When people have a 'normal' sex life, you know that your partner wants _you_, _your_ body, _your_ penis, etc. _as well as_ the emotional aspects of it. So from my standpoint in regards to sex with my wife, I feel like I could be anybody. I know that she loves ME, and that she does not want to have sex with anybody else - it's not that. It's that from a purely sexual perspective, it doesn't matter to her, if that makes sense.


I think you are idealizing the "normal" sex life. All kinds of things go on in the bedroom and while maybe something like a complete lack of desire is pretty rare, when you start adding together all the kinks, fetishes, phobias, hang-ups, fears and fantasies related to sex, all of a sudden you find that no one is actually normal. The idea that we can be compatible with huge swaths of people can, IMHO, only be based on actually not knowing them intimately. Once you do, then all sorts of problems can arise.

Like you, though, I think a lot of people just assume that things are okay or "normal" until they absolutely have to deal with whatever the issue is. But assuming something is normal doesn't make it normal. If you know what I mean.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> Yes and no. It took me a while to wrap my head around that, but I know my wife loves me. At first though, it was difficult.
> 
> As I said in my rather lengthy post, it's knowing that - sexually - I could be anybody. Sexually and physically, I'm not special. I'm not "hers". My body, my face, my appearance, my penis - none of it matters. None of it mattered to my ex wife, none of it matters to my current wife.
> 
> ...


This is such a tough one to actually explain isn't it? In my wife's case, it's almost like there is a near complete separation between the romantic and emotional, and the physical. I know beyond any doubt that my wife loves me specifically more than she has loved anyone in her life, and in ways that I can feel. When it comes to the sexual aspects though, I am left feeling more like an interchangeable part. I am the situationally appropriate sexual outlet.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> Yes and no. It took me a while to wrap my head around that, but I know my wife loves me. At first though, it was difficult.
> 
> As I said in my rather lengthy post, it's knowing that - sexually - I could be anybody. Sexually and physically, I'm not special. I'm not "hers". My body, my face, my appearance, my penis - none of it matters. None of it mattered to my ex wife, none of it matters to my current wife.
> 
> ...


Alex -

I followed your previous thread. I sympathize with your feelings, but I'd like to offer a couple of thoughts...

First, I think you need to admit that you have some emotional baggage regarding sex due to what happened with your ex. I think the circumstances in which that marriage ended would naturally make the issue of needing to know that you are physically attractive/desired emphasized, beyond what you might otherwise need if that hadn't happened to you. I don't blame you for that...it sounds like a really hurtful situation that you went through. I'm just saying, maybe cut your current wife a little slack on this. She cannot be the salve to those wounds you carry around. That is something you need to make peace with. 

Second - I posted on your other thread some of my experience as the LD partner. I have never, in any relationship I've had, felt an intense physical attraction to anyone. That doesn't mean I don't desire to be with my partner as an individual. My H's body is not what is important to me. What is important to me is his brain, his personality, his soul. The parts of him that make him unique. From my POV, I can get the physical package anywhere...a penis is nothing special, looks are nothing special. It is important for ME personally to know that I am desired the same way - for my core person, not for my looks or my body. I see that as being elevated above just finding someone physically attractive. I would bet your wife feels the same way about you. What you see as something negative, I see as something complimentary to you. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> I think you are idealizing the "normal" sex life. All kinds of things go on in the bedroom and while maybe something like a complete lack of desire is pretty rare, when you start adding together all the kinks, fetishes, phobias, hang-ups, fears and fantasies related to sex, all of a sudden you find that no one is actually normal. The idea that we can be compatible with huge swaths of people can, IMHO, only be based on actually not knowing them intimately. Once you do, then all sorts of problems can arise.
> 
> Like you, though, I think a lot of people just assume that things are okay or "normal" until they absolutely have to deal with whatever the issue is. But assuming something is normal doesn't make it normal. If you know what I mean.


That's why I put it in quotation marks. Normal is as normal does.

When I say 'normal', it's a generalization of the most base sexual dynamics in any relationship. One person has sex with the other person because there's an element of physical attraction to them - not just because "they're really nice people".

You look at your partner and there's a draw there. It's a conglomeration of all aspects of that person that makes you want to have sex with them.

My wife has changed a lot in the ~9 years we've been together. She's lost and gained and lost weight again, she's changed her clothing style. She's changed hairstyles and colours. She's been sexy and attractive to me each and every day since we met, despite all the changes.

That's 'normal'. Looking at your partner and wanting to have sex with them. They turn you on. It's not just what they look like, of course, but it's a big part of it. Even as we age and grow and change physically, we still look at our partners in that way.

If we don't view them as sexual beings, then it's not normal. Then it becomes like my first marriage where it's a case of "you'll do" or my current marriage where it's completely non-physical for one partner, thereby losing that ability for her to look at me and think "mmmmm..."


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

wild jade said:


> I think you are idealizing the "normal" sex life. All kinds of things go on in the bedroom and while maybe something like a complete lack of desire is pretty rare, when you start adding together all the kinks, fetishes, phobias, hang-ups, fears and fantasies related to sex, all of a sudden you find that no one is actually normal. The idea that we can be compatible with huge swaths of people can, IMHO, only be based on actually not knowing them intimately. Once you do, then all sorts of problems can arise.
> 
> Like you, though, I think a lot of people just assume that things are okay or "normal" until they absolutely have to deal with whatever the issue is. But assuming something is normal doesn't make it normal. If you know what I mean.


Ehh, before marriage it felt normal. After marriage there were some changes but mostly normal. After child - not normal. Suckers bet - wait it out and it'll return to "normal". Never happens, might get better but normal never returns.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

alexm said:


> That's 'normal'. Looking at your partner and wanting to have sex with them. They turn you on. It's not just what they look like, of course, but it's a big part of it. Even as we age and grow and change physically, we still look at our partners in that way.
> 
> If we don't view them as sexual beings, then it's not normal. Then it becomes like my first marriage where it's a case of "you'll do" or my current marriage where it's completely non-physical for one partner, thereby losing that ability for her to look at me and think "mmmmm..."


Normal is wanting to have sex with your partner. The End.

( Barring abusive behavior or illness. And with whatever flavor is consensual, kinks, fetishes)


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Almost every flavor of sexuality is "normal" in the sense of "occurs frequently". Sexless marriage is quite "normal" in that sense. One partner wanting sex much more or less often than their partner is also quite normal and might even be the majority of marriages. Even if in a large number of those marriages they have plenty of sex. Not even close to every case of mismatch is a case where the LD wants hardly any sex.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Almost every flavor of sexuality is "normal" in the sense of "occurs frequently". Sexless marriage is quite "normal" in that sense. One partner wanting sex much more or less often than their partner is also quite normal and might even be the majority of marriages. Even if in a large number of those marriages they have plenty of sex. Not even close to every case of mismatch is a case where the LD wants hardly any sex.


Don't disagree, but that isn't the 'normal' I was referring too. If ones normal stays relatively constant and the others normal changes radically then it is a problem.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

normal
ˈnôrməl/Submit
adjective
1.
conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected.
"it's quite normal for puppies to bolt their food"
synonyms:	usual, standard, ordinary, customary, conventional, habitual, accustomed, expected, wonted; More
2.


this whole what is normal argument is just to placate people who fall outside what most call normal.

I think its pretty normal to want to be married to someone who actually has some desire to be sexual with their partner. and I also thinks its normal to divorce them if it come out that they could really careless if they ever had sex with you again.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kag123 said:


> Alex -
> 
> I followed your previous thread. I sympathize with your feelings, but I'd like to offer a couple of thoughts...
> 
> ...


I disagree, respectfully. Yes, I have baggage from my previous marriage (as well as other things), but what I require is not that different than what anybody else requires - save you, and my wife of course!  The reality is that most people require that their partners view them in this manner, at least to varying degrees. Men and women work out, dress nice, put on makeup, shave, etc etc etc for this purpose. It's what attracts one person to another in the first place, 99% of the time. And frankly, it feels good to be physically admired AS WELL AS emotionally and mentally. As I said it's not the be-all, end-all, but it IS a big part of mutual attraction.

The ironic part is that if I did not live this once before, I would probably have a MUCH harder time with it now. If my ex wife was super hot for me and couldn't keep her hands off of me, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to go from that to this.

The bolded above, in your reply, is straight out of my wife's mouth. Now while it may be true for just about anybody, nobody wants their partner to actually say that, let alone believe it.

Technically, I could just as easily be physically attracted to someone other than my wife. The other things, obviously, are not so easy. I get that, and I respect where you're coming from with that.

However, the ideal is that one's partner is all of those. Maybe not straight-A, 100% matches, but no one part measuring as "adequate" or "good enough".


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> I disagree, respectfully. Yes, I have baggage from my previous marriage (as well as other things), but what I require is not that different than what anybody else requires - save you, and my wife of course!  The reality is that most people require that their partners view them in this manner, at least to varying degrees. Men and women work out, dress nice, put on makeup, shave, etc etc etc for this purpose. It's what attracts one person to another in the first place, 99% of the time. And frankly, it feels good to be physically admired AS WELL AS emotionally and mentally. As I said it's not the be-all, end-all, but it IS a big part of mutual attraction.
> 
> The ironic part is that if I did not live this once before, I would probably have a MUCH harder time with it now. If my ex wife was super hot for me and couldn't keep her hands off of me, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to go from that to this.
> 
> ...


Perhaps a different way to describe the feeling you and I have on this, and that some may have a better time relating to would be it is equivalent to how some women feel when they feel as if they are nothing more than a warm hole of convenience to their husbands.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Malaise said:


> Normal is wanting to have sex with your partner. The End.
> 
> ( Barring abusive behavior or illness. And with whatever flavor is consensual, kinks, fetishes)


Normal is _desiring_ to have sex with your partner.

My wife wants to have sex with me, she just doesn't desire it. Big difference.

My ex wife desired sex, but didn't want _me_. I was just there.

The end result is the same - two women who didn't truly desire me. They desire(d) what I offer in all other aspects of relationships and marriage.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> I disagree, respectfully. Yes, I have baggage from my previous marriage (as well as other things), but what I require is not that different than what anybody else requires - save you, and my wife of course!  The reality is that most people require that their partners view them in this manner, at least to varying degrees. Men and women work out, dress nice, put on makeup, shave, etc etc etc for this purpose. It's what attracts one person to another in the first place, 99% of the time. And frankly, it feels good to be physically admired AS WELL AS emotionally and mentally. As I said it's not the be-all, end-all, but it IS a big part of mutual attraction.
> 
> The ironic part is that if I did not live this once before, I would probably have a MUCH harder time with it now. If my ex wife was super hot for me and couldn't keep her hands off of me, I can't imagine how difficult it would be to go from that to this.
> 
> ...


Fascinating. I know way more people IRL who at least *say* they share my feelings on this matter. They could always be lying to make me feel better, who knows? 

I still cannot say I get it. 

I 100% expect my husband finds other women attractive. Why wouldn't he? It does not bother me, because he chooses to come home to me, and he's not making moves on anyone else or otherwise breaking our vows. I want him to value what I bring to the table that is not physical, otherwise I do feel like all I am is a warm hole that might be pretty to look at. It is absolutely not important to me at all that my husband lusts after my body. I just see zero value in that. 

And I still take care of myself and dress nicely, and do all of those things to keep up my appearance because it's important to me for non-sexual reasons. I want to feel good about myself, for me. I want to be professional looking at work to be taken seriously which includes a certain type of dress and upkeep. I want to at least blend in with my peers when we go places and to do that I've gotta make sure I'm keeping pace with other women in my age bracket. I don't enjoy sexual advances from strangers or being approached by a man at all and I never did.  Start an intelligent conversation with me and show me you've got a brain? That can make me interested. Make it obvious that you saw my tits from across the room and that's why you came up to me, um, GTFO.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> Normal is _desiring_ to have sex with your partner.
> 
> *My wife wants to have sex with me, she just doesn't desire it. Big difference.*
> 
> ...


Can you describe the difference between the bolded?

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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

kag123 said:


> Fascinating. I know way more people IRL who at least *say* they share my feelings on this matter. They could always be lying to make me feel better, who knows?


I don't quite get it either.

There are lots of women more attractive than my wife (and lots of men more attractive than me).

I desire my wife because of who she is and how I feel about her.

Sure, if she was 400 lbs, I'd desire her less. 

And, there are many things about her appearance that arouse me. However, I could find those body parts elsewhere. 

50% of each gender is below average in appearance, who are they supposed to have sex with? 

In "Dataclysm", I believe women rated 80% of men as below average in appearance. 

I'm sure my wife rates my attractiveness higher than other women would; because it's* me*.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

alexm said:


> My wife wants to have sex with me, she just doesn't desire it. Big difference.


My wife may desire sex with many men.

She only wants to have sex with me.

I'll take "want" over "desire".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kag123 said:


> Can you describe the difference between the bolded?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


She doesn't come to me for it and doesn't need it. When we have sex, she wants it, and thoroughly enjoys it. But like you, she doesn't look at her partner and think "oh yeah, I want that" or "I want his ****" or "he's so sexy he turns me on". That sort of thing.

I mean, my ex wife didn't want _me_, but she wanted sex. Or she at least wanted my **** to have sex with.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> She doesn't come to me for it and doesn't need it. When we have sex, she wants it, and thoroughly enjoys it. But like you, she doesn't look at her partner and think "oh yeah, I want that" or "I want his ****" or "he's so sexy he turns me on". That sort of thing.
> 
> I mean, my ex wife didn't want _me_, but she wanted sex. Or she at least wanted my **** to have sex with.


 and this is how two different behaviours can lead to the same conclusion. My wife has no problems outwardly expressing her appreciation of other men in ways that she just doesn't express about me.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> and this is how two different behaviours can lead to the same conclusion. My wife has no problems outwardly expressing her appreciation of other men in ways that she just doesn't express about me.


Sam lately you sound very unhappy. What's going on?

Sorry for the TJ OP


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> That's 'normal'. Looking at your partner and wanting to have sex with them. They turn you on. It's not just what they look like, of course, but it's a big part of it. Even as we age and grow and change physically, we still look at our partners in that way.
> 
> If we don't view them as sexual beings, then it's not normal. Then it becomes like my first marriage where it's a case of "you'll do" or my current marriage where it's completely non-physical for one partner, thereby losing that ability for her to look at me and think "mmmmm..."


Mmmm. That is certainly the ideal. But I think this "doesn't really desire me or my [insert sexual organs here]" is actually about as normal as it gets.

That's what I meant when I suggested that you are idealizing normal. The people you are envying are often going through the same sorts of things. It's just not apparent on the surface.

Like you, my husband assumes that I am "normal" (in the sort of way that you think people should be). But I am most definitely not. He will never know that, but it is true.

Not that I'm necessarily the epitome of normal. But of all the couples I know, there are lots and lots of .... let me just say "not normal" things going on.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

alexm said:


> She doesn't come to me for it and doesn't need it. When we have sex, she wants it, and thoroughly enjoys it. But like you, she doesn't look at her partner and think "oh yeah, I want that" or "I want his ****" or "he's so sexy he turns me on". That sort of thing.
> 
> I mean, my ex wife didn't want _me_, but she wanted sex. Or she at least wanted my **** to have sex with.


And that's partly what I mean.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

If my partner didn't desire me specifically, I would quickly lose all sexual interest in them. And if I didn't desire my partner specifically, they would know it (and I'd be on my way out the door). 

I find it highly important that there is mutual sexual desire between myself and a partner. Any amount of "you'll do" or "you're the one I'm in love with and it's only appropriate that we have sex with each other so even though I don't desire you specifically I only have sex with you" would be the end of it for me in a heartbeat.

I don't blame the men and women here who feel there is something missing when they know their partner doesn't desire them specifically for feeling like something is missing. Makes perfect sense to me.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> If my partner didn't desire me specifically, I would quickly lose all sexual interest in them. And if I didn't desire my partner specifically, they would know it (and I'd be on my way out the door).
> 
> I find it highly important that there is mutual sexual desire between myself and a partner. Any amount of "you'll do" or "you're the one I'm in love with and it's only appropriate that we have sex with each other so even though I don't desire you specifically I only have sex with you" would be the end of it for me in a heartbeat.
> 
> I don't blame the men and women here who feel there is something missing when they know their partner doesn't desire them specifically for feeling like something is missing. Makes perfect sense to me.


It's weird (and also embarrassing) but I didn't really know my ex wife didn't desire me in that way.

I think she probably had sexual desire for me at first (and for how long exactly, I don't know), but in retrospect, it was likely because she was in love with me, therefore she craved the intimacy and emotional aspect of sex.

Over time, as LTR's and marriages tend to do, it became 'de rigeur' and neither of us probably paid much attention to any sort of lack of sexual/physical interest. Until she did, apparently, but obviously did not tell me. And I remained gleefully in the dark.

I basically put it all together in my head afterwards, asked her about it, she confirmed, and I felt stupid.

As far as my current wife goes, I deal with it because she's not interested in anybody else in that way, either, so it's much easier to accept. But if this was a repeat of marriage #1, I would have been gone years ago.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> If my partner didn't desire me specifically, I would quickly lose all sexual interest in them. And if I didn't desire my partner specifically, they would know it (and I'd be on my way out the door).
> 
> I find it highly important that there is mutual sexual desire between myself and a partner. Any amount of "you'll do" or "you're the one I'm in love with and it's only appropriate that we have sex with each other so even though I don't desire you specifically I only have sex with you" would be the end of it for me in a heartbeat.
> 
> I don't blame the men and women here who feel there is something missing when they know their partner doesn't desire them specifically for feeling like something is missing. Makes perfect sense to me.


It makes perfect sense to me too. And I certainly wouldn't blame someone for either feeling something is missing or leaving that person because there is.

But IMHO acting on this feeling is a recipe for serial monogamy and not LTR "to death do us part". Of course there is nothing wrong with that if that's what you want. Probably perfect for a lot of people.

My desire loss for my husband is very real, but he will never ever know it's happening. And that's because I have no desire whatsover to disrupt something that is actually very good for me simply because I have to use fantasy and other personal techniques to enjoy my orgasms. 

I have a friend whose husband has decided to cross dress. That would definitely be a deal-breaker for most, but she values him and is just kinky enough to work with whatever he wants to experiment with. Will they last through it? Maybe not, but they are trying.

And probably almost every relationship in the world has to deal with wandering eyes or diminished desire at some point, for whatever reason. The reality is that people change, we grow old, we realize that we've been denying parts of ourselves we want to explore, we meet people who just hit all our buttons ..... it''s not just a question of "you'll do" or "grit your teeth", it's also the reality that people are who they are and they need to work through their issues,. The way I see it, you can either accept that and work with it, or you can leave and find someone else. Both are reasonable choices, IMHO, and both have their consequences.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> and this is how two different behaviours can lead to the same conclusion. My wife has no problems outwardly expressing her appreciation of other men in ways that she just doesn't express about me.


Sounds like my ex wife, though she didn't do it with people IRL (in front of me, anyway), she sure did with celebrities and rock stars and the like. Nary a word to me, however.

That's very different than what U or I seem to have for sure. I know my wife doesn't have a physical appreciation for anybody, including me, and I think U's wife is probably the same. The _physical_sexual attraction just does not exist. As others have said in this thread, they too do not care about appearance, body, etc - it's about the mind and the emotions and all the "other" stuff.

Either way, it sucks. Just for different reasons. I've unfortunately lived both. But as I've said, when I was oblivious to it all, it was a non-issue. I just assumed my wife, for the first few years anyway, appreciated my body, was attracted to me physically, etc.

Clearly I'm not one of those guys who needs that to boost my ego. It, for me anyway, is truly just the realization that what I look like, what I have, etc. does not actually matter in the slightest - to her.

I had thought for a few years that what I looked like had some impact on my wife's attraction to me, our relationship as a whole, and sex in general, and it made me feel good, as it would anybody else. It was nice thinking that, to her, I was the "total package".


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> Mmmm. That is certainly the ideal. But I think this "doesn't really desire me or my [insert sexual organs here]" is actually about as normal as it gets.
> 
> That's what I meant when I suggested that you are idealizing normal. The people you are envying are often going through the same sorts of things. It's just not apparent on the surface.
> 
> ...


I know it sounds like I'm being defensive, but I don't feel that I am. I don't envy anybody, honestly. When I see couple friends of ours who are clearly physically attracted to one another (as well as in other ways), I'm not jealous. Everybody's different. Even if my wife were physically attracted to me (or men in general), it doesn't mean she'd be draped all over me at all times.

As I said, until the moment she told me she just doesn't view me, or anybody else, as physically sexually attractive, it was a total non-issue. I just made the rightful assumption that it was _everything_ about me that she appreciated.

As for using the word "normal", it's touchy on this board. When I use it, I don't literally mean "what everybody else is doing (or should be doing)". We all have our own ideas of what normal is, anyway.

AFAIC, sex is far more complicated than it should be, for the majority of people out there. I think there was a time in human history (and probably not that long ago) where it WAS.

The way I look at it from my own marital perspective is that my wife and I BOTH enjoy sex. I love everything about it, she's limited to enjoying the physical aspect of it, only. We both love each other. She trusts me, I trust her.

Yet she over-complicates it, IMO. There are countless times throughout the week in which we can have sex, and there's really no reason we can't, either. She has literally admitted this. When we're home alone on a Tuesday evening and she's not in the mood (but being responsive desire...) it's a no-go. I ask her what the difference is between Tuesday night with nobody else home and a Saturday night when the kids are here, and she has no idea. It just is. I tell her it's just a day on the calendar, and she agrees. She doesn't know why she's pre-emptively unresponsive on a Tuesday, despite us having the house to ourselves and nothing to do. But Saturday night, younger kid in bed down the hall, older kid in the basement being a teenager - and she's good to go.

So when I say "normal", I think I mean more along the lines of not complicating sex so much, especially for reasons that even she doesn't know. When I say "normal", I think I mean that, regardless of how often a couple is having sex, it just happens, or each person can become aroused, or one person is aroused and gets the other in the mood. That's how sex is supposed to work, am I wrong?

Abnormal is not allowing yourself to become aroused for no real reason.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

No @alexm, I don't think you are being defensive. I just think you are over-complicating things. In your own way. Different from hers.

Yes, having a low desire like your wife isn't all that common. And if she had a higher desire, she would respond more often to your attempts to arouse her. 

What is, however, as normal as it gets is desire mismatches and incompatibilities. And so that's why I suggested this idea you have of how sex is "supposed" to be is your ideal, not necessarily linked to reality -- for an awful lot of people.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

wild jade said:


> No @alexm, I don't think you are being defensive. I just think you are over-complicating things. In your own way.  Different from hers.
> 
> Yes, having a low desire like your wife isn't all that common. And if she had a higher desire, she would respond more often to your attempts to arouse her.
> 
> What is, however, as normal as it gets is desire mismatches and incompatibilities. And so that's why I suggested this idea you have of how sex is "supposed" to be is your ideal, not necessarily linked to reality -- for an awful lot of people.


It's ironic, isn't it? That I over-complicated it only once I realized my wife does! 

And she's really not low desire, she's no desire. She's also responsive desire in the sense that she "has" to have sex with her husband, therefore she does, and when she does, she is quote/unquote "normal" and lets herself go, and does anything and everything, moans and occasionally screams, has multiple orgasms and, and, and...

If I asked her immediately after mind-blowing sex why this wasn't happening more often, I'm 99% sure she'd say "because I don't want to". :scratchhead:


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> It's ironic, isn't it? That I over-complicated it only once I realized my wife does!
> 
> And she's really not low desire, she's no desire. She's also responsive desire in the sense that she "has" to have sex with her husband, therefore she does, and when she does, she is quote/unquote "normal" and lets herself go, and does anything and everything, moans and occasionally screams, has multiple orgasms and, and, and...
> 
> If I asked her immediately after mind-blowing sex why this wasn't happening more often, I'm 99% sure she'd say "because I don't want to". :scratchhead:


Or if it wasn't immediately enough, it would be "What sex?"

That's the thing with my wife...in the moment, she absolutely says and does all the right things as it were, and is entirely genuine in every bit of it. However, outside of when we are actually naked in bed, it just doesn't really occur to her to acknowledge that she finds me attractive. However, it does occur to her to express it in direct ways about her celeb attractions.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

alexm said:


> If I asked her immediately after mind-blowing sex why this wasn't happening more often, I'm 99% sure she'd say "because I don't want to". :scratchhead:


No, I do not think that is it. It doesn't happen more often because this is how often she needs to have sex to feel comfortable that she is normal and your sex life is normal and your marriage is healthy and she has done her duty as a wife to be available sexually. Once a week ticks off all those boxes, and then she is done and on to the other items on her "to do" list. A second session of sex is entirely unnecessary to achieve all her sex-oriented goals and would interfere with achieving her other goals so it is to be avoided if possible. And it is possible, because you aren't going to leave over it.

Not that I blame you for that decision. Probably the correct one for you in your situation. But she isn't changing. I think she would miss you if you left. Or maybe she would change, but she would resent the heck out of you "forcing" her to have more sex and depriving her of the chance to accomplish other things in that "wasted" time.

So, if you stay together, one of you is going to live with frustration and resentment. Which of you do you think is more capable of permanently being frustrated and resentment without filing for divorce, and without taking it out on the other spouse? See, that is why you are making the correct choice to stay and you aren't getting any more sex any time soon. Glad I could sort that one for you.

And yes, that last part was tongue in cheek and I do feel for you. But I also think that, like Frodo, you are the one who can bear the burden of carrying the ring to Mount Doom.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> It's ironic, isn't it? That I over-complicated it only once I realized my wife does!
> 
> And she's really not low desire, she's no desire. She's also responsive desire in the sense that she "has" to have sex with her husband, therefore she does, and when she does, she is quote/unquote "normal" and lets herself go, and does anything and everything, moans and occasionally screams, has multiple orgasms and, and, and...
> 
> If I asked her immediately after mind-blowing sex why this wasn't happening more often, I'm 99% sure she'd say "because I don't want to". :scratchhead:


I still think you all are over thinking it. 

Low drive means exactly that. We have a lower need for sex than you do. If I just had "mind blowing sex" it means I'm not going to want it again for awhile afterwards, because that is all that I had the desire for. Period. It doesn't even have anything to do with the quality of it. My body just does not want it more than that. 

If there were a female libido enhancer pill, I'd be taking it. A lot of the "drive" feels innate (it's mostly hormonal, right?) - at least from my skin - I can jump through tons of hoops to try to get my body to manufacture the true desire more often. In fact, I have done that. Nothing has changed that baseline. 

I have sex more often than my baseline innate desire because I love my husband and I know that is one of his needs. It is what a loving wife should do IMO, because the alternative of starving him out seems much more cruel. I participate and try to get into it, but it's still not the same as if I had that innate biological desire before we ever got started. I feel powerless to change that part of me, and very ashamed that he is tied to someone like me who is lacking this thing that other women have. I am keenly aware of my inadequacies there. I am sure your wives are also aware. 

I am not NO drive, I am LOW drive. So I do have the desire on occasion and I do know what it feels like to initiate sex and be with my H when I have that desire leading the way. It is amazing, and if I could bottle that feeling and take it every day I would. I've been chasing that dream with various doctors ever since I had my first child 8+ years ago, and haven't found any solutions. (Side note - it is jaw dropping to me how many doctors I've seen that have smirked and told me "Well you're married and you have young kids, what do you expect?")

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

kag123 said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > It's ironic, isn't it? That I over-complicated it only once I realized my wife does!
> ...


@kag123 a question.

Do you find your husband sexy? I know that you have a lower drive. But aside from that completely....do you find him sexy? I realize that finding him sexy may not in itself make you feel desire to have sex with him. But I was just curious as to your answer.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> @kag123 a question.
> 
> Do you find your husband sexy? I know that you have a lower drive. But aside from that completely....do you find him sexy? I realize that finding him sexy may not in itself make you feel desire to have sex with him. But I was just curious as to your answer.


Yes. But only if he inspires that through his behavior. I need to feel entirely emotionally connected to him to find him sexy. Sexy is not a physical thing to me. I have never lusted after someone based on their looks, not ever. 

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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> alexm said:
> 
> 
> > It's ironic, isn't it? That I over-complicated it only once I realized my wife does!
> ...


@samyeager 

Is your wife still making those types of comments about other men?

If so, why can't you simply ask her to stop? Just saying that it feels disrespectful to you since she never says such comments about you?

Partners I've been with have sometimes said stupid things around me. Things that I would never say because I know in advance it may hurt their feelings or make them feel unnecessarily insecure. It seems that they just said things without thinking first how it might affect me. 

I've just explained to them that I keep certain things to myself because I know it might make them feel insecure and I'd like them to do the same.

Sometimes if they have acted indignant about this, I've just said fine ok, I'll say the things I am thinking without worrying about how it will affect you and then you'll see what I'm talking about.

And then I do.

And then they stop saying stupid things that they should have been more sensitive about.

Because it hurts them too and they feel it when I do it. Then they understand the need to have a filter and why it is important.

I'm not a crazy jealous person. But I won't tolerate double standards. If they want to speak with no regard for how I might feel about what they say, then I'm going to do the same. 

Don't say things around your partner that would hurt if they said them to you...that's the lesson and once they learn it (usually only when I've showed them what it feels like by doing it myself) they stop.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

kag123 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > @kag123 a question.
> ...


@kag123

Thank you. It is interesting to hear your perspective. 

Would you consider yourself asexual, in the sense that you don't feel sexual attraction through the physical image of anyone? 

Or maybe demi sexual, where you only feel sexual attraction through love and admiration?

Also, do you feel sexy? Do you want to? Do you feel sexual eyes on you because you are sexy? If you don't feel sexy or sexual eyes on you, have you ever? How do you feel about men who have seen you as sexy?


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> @kag123
> 
> Thank you. It is interesting to hear your perspective.
> 
> ...


I am not familiar with all of the terms. I always thought asexual meant you had literally zero drive. I do have a drive, it's just lower than what I'd like it to be, so I assumed this term didn't apply to me. 

I have never heard of demi sexual. Maybe that applies? I don't know. 

I feel attractive based on what I am wearing, or how I'm feeling that day, yes. I enjoy feeling attractive. Attractive to me means pretty to look at, not someone to lust after. However, I am aware other people see it differently so I don't discount those experiences. 

I want to be attractive for my H because I think it is important to him. I enjoy my husband complimenting me on how I look, and he is allowed to stare at me or touch me anyway he wants as I trust him and love him. (I don't necessarily react the way he may want me to, like falling into his arms when he does those things though, because it just doesn't turn me on to be approached like that.)

Prior to marriage - I had my fair share of being looked at, hit on and unfortunately, being borderline assaulted as well. I do not enjoy being looked at in a sexual manner by a stranger. I find it repulsive and it makes me uncomfortable, like hair stand up on the back of my neck, fight or flight uncomfortable. It's not a concern anymore, but I used to go to bars a lot in my single days when I was younger with my friends and I absolutely hated the male attention when it was blatantly sexual in nature. This unfortunately included a lot of lewd comments, unwanted groping and such. I would actually mentally make a note of what I was wearing, and not wear that thing anymore thinking I was inviting the unwanted attention. 

I am not opposed to being approached by a stranger, but there has to be some conversation and there has to be an attempt for you to get to know me before I will accept your advances. 

Now that I am married, I do not want anyone else's eyes on me ever, and I only dress "sexy" if I am with my husband attached to his arm the whole time. 

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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> @kag123
> 
> Thank you. It is interesting to hear your perspective.
> 
> ...


You know, it's funny. When I stop and think about it, I am also much more attracted to somebody because of them, not what they look like. When it's come to my partners, I've been sexually attracted to them for them, not their bodies. I like my wife's breasts because they're her breasts. I like my wife's butt because it's her butt. There's still a physical attraction there, but it's because it's them, know what I mean?

That said, I am attracted to the physical form as a whole, though I wouldn't say I have a 'type'. No woman I've ever been with, dated, slept with, fooled around with, married (lol) "had" to have this, that or the other thing.

I can't speak for Kag, but she strikes me as exactly the same as my wife, which is different from me. While I genuinely don't care about the specific physical aspects of any woman, I'm still very much attracted to their body (the person I'm with). I look at my wife and think "ohhhh yeahhhh!". But I did that with my ex wife (complete opposite body type) and the other women I've been fortunate enough to be naked with - all very different than each other.

My wife simply doesn't get any excitement out of seeing anybody's body or face. It's entirely the person (or personality, or whatever). 100%. If I grew 4 inches, worked out, had a swimmer's body or whatever most women find sexy, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to how my wife viewed me, nor would it have made me any more attractive to her when we first met. She simply doesn't see those things. That's not a bad thing, of course, I'd rather she be attracted to me, and not just my body, but at the same time, knowing that it doesn't make an ounce of difference what I look like is kind of offputting, IMO. If I did suddenly decide to get in better shape (I'm not in bad shape at all right now) she'd notice, but it wouldn't increase her interest in me. Likewise, if I let myself go, her interest wouldn't decrease.

Look, it's not a bad thing at all - frankly there's a lot of positives to it. That said, most people DO want their partners to admire them physically in one way or another. We all want to be attractive to our partners in all aspects, not just "the mind".

In a weird way, it's no different than somebody feeling that their partner "only wants me for my body". We humans generally want to be admired for everything, not necessarily equally, but nonetheless.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> @samyeager
> 
> Is your wife still making those types of comments about other men?
> 
> ...


I have told her to stop. It took a few times, but she has gotten a lot better. She still struggles with making any comments or really acknowledging me in the same way, but at least I don't hear it about other men nearly as much. Rather than lamenting and trying to figure out how to get her to express attraction to me, it is more just a matter of fact now...not going to happen, so no use worrying about it, but the fact remains, much like alex's wife, mine just doesn't see me in a physical way.

I think it has been on my mind a bit more here lately because one of her droolboys is having a concert near us in a couple of weeks, and oh boy is she excited. Yeah, she has kept the reins drawn in a little better than she would have in the past, but it has kind of set up a slow trigger, which on top of some financial issues, and her dragging her feet in getting a job, it's been kind of stressful lately.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

alexm said:


> You know, it's funny. When I stop and think about it, I am also much more attracted to somebody because of them, not what they look like. When it's come to my partners, I've been sexually attracted to them for them, not their bodies. I like my wife's breasts because they're her breasts. I like my wife's butt because it's her butt. There's still a physical attraction there, but it's because it's them, know what I mean?
> 
> That said, I am attracted to the physical form as a whole, though I wouldn't say I have a 'type'. No woman I've ever been with, dated, slept with, fooled around with, married (lol) "had" to have this, that or the other thing.
> 
> ...


My H has struggled with his weight his whole life. Throughout the course of our relationship I've seen him span a difference of about 75lbs, some years he's at the bottom of the spectrum being 75lbs lighter and some years he's at the top. Right now he's inching towards the top again. Even when he's at his lightest he's not ever been thin.

I can admit he looks better in his clothes when he is lighter in weight. He appears healthier. Part of that is also his physical condition though - as in, he moves differently, he sleeps better, he has more confidence when he's lighter which comes across in his mannerisms, he feels healthier which improves his mood. I prefer the lighter version of my H, but I love him equally no matter what his weight is and I still have the same frequency of sex with him regardless of what the scale says. 

When he's lighter, his sex drive skyrockets and it becomes a problem because I can't keep up. I think it frustrates him because he feels like he gets little payoff from me for being in better shape when it does not really increase MY drive at all for him to be that way. I truly wish it did - again, I feel like I have no control over that. Since I'm not inspired by the physical form, I don't see him sexually any different than when his weight is higher. 

There are pros and cons to having someone like me as a wife. I guess you can have the assurance that no matter what you look like, nothing will change. I'm not going to leave him or stop having sex with him. But on the flip side, you know that no matter how much effort you put in at the gym, nothing will change!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

kag123 said:


> There are pros and cons to having someone like me as a wife. I guess you can have the assurance that no matter what you look like, nothing will change. I'm not going to leave him or stop having sex with him. But on the flip side, you know that no matter how much effort you put in at the gym, nothing will change!
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


Right, and it's (probably) less likely that you'll leave him for somebody who matches your physical 'type' - because you don't have one - so that's a plus.

As I said, I lived that. My ex wife literally told me she was never attracted to me after we split up, and throughout our 14 year relationship, she acted much like @samyeagar's wife in that she drooled over others (celebrities, rock stars, etc.) but never over me. And of course, the OM fit that physical type perfectly AND was (apparently) able to meet all the other needs that I did fit just fine. Talk about being replaced by a 'better' model.

With my current wife, at least I know she's not looking elsewhere. As long as I continue to meet the other needs, I should be fine, fingers crossed.

But in all honesty, I'd still rather have someone be able to view me as the whole package, as it were. For anybody to not feel attractive to their spouse, regardless of whether they find others attractive or not, is a bit of an ego killer.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> I have told her to stop. It took a few times, but she has gotten a lot better. She still struggles with making any comments or really acknowledging me in the same way, but at least I don't hear it about other men nearly as much. Rather than lamenting and trying to figure out how to get her to express attraction to me, it is more just a matter of fact now...not going to happen, so no use worrying about it, but the fact remains, much like alex's wife, mine just doesn't see me in a physical way.
> 
> I think it has been on my mind a bit more here lately because one of her droolboys is having a concert near us in a couple of weeks, and oh boy is she excited. Yeah, she has kept the reins drawn in a little better than she would have in the past, but it has kind of set up a slow trigger, which on top of some financial issues, and her dragging her feet in getting a job, it's been kind of stressful lately.


Fun story for you - my ex wife and I used to go to a lot of concerts, right up til we split up. Bands that we both liked equally, but some of the guys got her hot. The very last show we went to, we grabbed a bite to eat before the show, and she was excited. We ended up finishing our meal quickly and getting busy in the car in the parking lot. Then we went to the show, and halfway through their set, she told me that as soon as they were done, she wanted to go **** in our car in the parking lot - again. I said no to the second one. I had no problem the first time - she was excited, it was a 'date night' of sorts, and we had time to kill before the show. But to - very obviously - be horny because we were seeing one of her drool boys - no thanks. It had nothing to do with me, I assure you. The amount of times in our 14 year relationship that we had sex twice in the span of a few hours I could have counted on two fingers, probably.

By this time in our marriage, I already knew in the back of my mind that she had her type and that I was not it. There were numerous times over the years that I knew when we had sex, it had little to do with me, but this time was just super obvious. I could live with it at home if we watched a movie or something that got her horny and I can't say that every single time I ever wanted sex it was because she turned me on. But this was overkill. I didn't tell her why I said no, wasn't going to go down that road, thank you, and I never saw her as sexually frustrated as I had at that time. Like so bad, she angrily masturbated in the car on the way home. It was surreal.

About two months later, we split up. Maybe that was her tipping point, I don't know.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Wow. That story is horrifying and gross. Sorry you had to live it. 

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

alexm said:


> Fun story for you - my ex wife and I used to go to a lot of concerts, right up til we split up. Bands that we both liked equally, but some of the guys got her hot. The very last show we went to, we grabbed a bite to eat before the show, and she was excited. We ended up finishing our meal quickly and getting busy in the car in the parking lot. Then we went to the show, and halfway through their set, she told me that as soon as they were done, she wanted to go **** in our car in the parking lot - again. I said no to the second one. I had no problem the first time - she was excited, it was a 'date night' of sorts, and we had time to kill before the show. But to - very obviously - be horny because we were seeing one of her drool boys - no thanks. It had nothing to do with me, I assure you. The amount of times in our 14 year relationship that we had sex twice in the span of a few hours I could have counted on two fingers, probably.
> 
> By this time in our marriage, I already knew in the back of my mind that she had her type and that I was not it. There were numerous times over the years that I knew when we had sex, it had little to do with me, but this time was just super obvious. I could live with it at home if we watched a movie or something that got her horny and I can't say that every single time I ever wanted sex it was because she turned me on. But this was overkill. I didn't tell her why I said no, wasn't going to go down that road, thank you, and I never saw her as sexually frustrated as I had at that time. Like so bad, she angrily masturbated in the car on the way home. It was surreal.
> 
> About two months later, we split up. Maybe that was her tipping point, I don't know.


I have similarly declined sex with my wife under similar circumstances. Most recently was when she got home after going to see magic Mike. She was grudgingly respectful enough to honor my request that she not gush all over her Facebook page about it. No doubt this upcoming concert will be a repeat, though hopefully she will know better than to even try.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

samyeagar said:


> I have similarly declined sex with my wife under similar circumstances. Most recently was when she got home after going to see magic Mike. She was grudgingly respectful enough to honor my request that she not gush all over her Facebook page about it. No doubt this upcoming concert will be a repeat, though hopefully she will know better than to even try.


It's interesting in that, before it really hit me that my ex wife was never attracted to me physically, it never bothered me. It's fairly normal to be turned on by something external. I figured that most of the time it was me that got her excited, so watching a movie or having a good workout or whatever - no big deal if that got her excited - once in a while. Turns out it was 100% of the time 

Clearly though, there's a line one can cross. My ex wife did, obviously. Perhaps it was because it was real, in front of us, and she really didn't hide it. Or that she wanted more than she normally did. Basically, she pushed that envelope too far that one time, and it stung.

What's funny though, is that years ago, my wife was reading through the 50 Shades books, back-to-back-to-back, and I remember thinking that maybe I was going to get lucky! Nothing of the sort happened, lol! And when she finished the last one, I asked her "So? As good as they all say?" She replied with "Meh. I don't see what the big deal is." True story. So I asked her why she finished reading all three of them, and read them all back-to-back. "Well everybody is reading them, so..." To be fair, it took her a month+, and she only ever read them in bed before going to sleep, so it's not like she literally couldn't put them down. She read them the same way she reads any other book, in about the same time frame.

So in that instance, I was expecting (hoping?) I was going to reap some rewards!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I don't know what desire is but if I were going to feel it then it would have been for my husband. He remained a gorgeous man well into his 60's. I could see and appreciate that but not feel any need/want to have sex with him -- and certainly not with anyone else. I think if I could have felt desire it would have ever only been the responsive desire type and only for my husband but I'll never know. 

We met when we were 18. He was as physically perfect as any 18 year old boy could possibly be but that was wasted on me. I'm not really aware of something "missing" in me because I never had it to miss it. I've never had the slightest interest in being sexy, feeling sexy, dressing sexy, etc. I have no concept of that whatsoever. I've never sought attention from males -- it's always made me extremely uncomfortable -- and I didn't really like dating. I had a couple of relationships between the time I met my husband and when we got married (we were friends-only during that period) but I had no more sexual interest in them, or anyone else, than I eventually did for my husband. 

I thought back then that I was just very inexperienced and it would all get better with time. Wrong. It's who I am and it's permanent.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Then in retrospect, why did you get into an LTR or marriage? 

I can understand attraction and compatibility. My best flame back in the old country was a CSA victim and with what little counseling was available back then pretty much coped by shutting down. She ended up getting a PhD in clinical psychology and despite knowing all the answers never got into a physical relationship. The fact that we formed an incredible emotional relationship is quite telling. 

Could I survive decades of a non physical relationship? Not sure. We split as we both went on to grad school abroad but ultimately we make our own choices.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

*Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life*

If your post is directed at me, John, the answer is I didn't know then what I obviously know now. I was 20 years old when he asked me to marry him. That was many decades ago and girls of my generation in that very conservative time and place didn't ask questions about sex. I didn't know what was "normal". Sex was supposed to be for males anyway. I was very inexperienced and had no idea females could even orgasm. I thought I would get better with time but I didn't. If I had it to do over again, no, I wouldn't get married. And now that I'm divorced I stay away from relationships. I'm not relationship material and I'm well aware of it. A casual date now and then on a friendly basis, sure. Nothing else. Anyone who wants to date me learns that up front. I'm willing to be friends but that's all I'm willing to be.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Open,

I want to personally thank you for participating on this site - your contribution is truly invaluable. 





Openminded said:


> I don't know what desire is but if I were going to feel it then it would have been for my husband. He remained a gorgeous man well into his 60's. I could see and appreciate that but not feel any need/want to have sex with him -- and certainly not with anyone else. I think if I could have felt desire it would have ever only been the responsive desire type and only for my husband but I'll never know.
> 
> We met when we were 18. He was as physically perfect as any 18 year old boy could possibly be but that was wasted on me. I'm not really aware of something "missing" in me because I never had it to miss it. I've never had the slightest interest in being sexy, feeling sexy, dressing sexy, etc. I have no concept of that whatsoever. I've never sought attention from males -- it's always made me extremely uncomfortable -- and I didn't really like dating. I had a couple of relationships between the time I met my husband and when we got married (we were friends-only during that period) but I had no more sexual interest in them, or anyone else, than I eventually did for my husband.
> 
> I thought back then that I was just very inexperienced and it would all get better with time. Wrong. It's who I am and it's permanent.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I second the above. Introspection is a valuable quality!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Open,
> 
> I want to personally thank you for participating on this site - your contribution is truly invaluable.


Thanks, MEM. 

It's very difficult for me to discuss. Not really something I thought I could do but I felt I should at least try to explain what it's like. 

And it's a learning experience for me to read how others feel even though I can't feel that myself.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

*Re: The strange case of Ms Uhtred's sex life*

You may not need to stay away from loving relationships. There are men who do not want sexual intimacy. Its possibly you could have a loving relationship with someone who shared your feelings wrt sex. Of course if you don't want a relationship, that is completely fine too. 



Openminded said:


> If your post is directed at me, John, the answer is I didn't know then what I obviously know now. I was 20 years old when he asked me to marry him. That was many decades ago and girls of my generation in that very conservative time and place didn't ask questions about sex. I didn't know what was "normal". Sex was supposed to be for males anyway. I was very inexperienced and had no idea females could even orgasm. I thought I would get better with time but I didn't. If I had it to do over again, no, I wouldn't get married. And now that I'm divorced I stay away from relationships. I'm not relationship material and I'm well aware of it. A casual date now and then on a friendly basis, sure. Nothing else. Anyone who wants to date me learns that up front. I'm willing to be friends but that's all I'm willing to be.


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## 2020hindsight (Nov 3, 2015)

Openminded said:


> I thought back then that I was just very inexperienced and it would all get better with time. Wrong. It's who I am and it's permanent.


With so many movies and songs and novels about a young woman's "sexual awakening" in our culture, especially in the 60s/70s/80s, it is/was easy for a young woman to assume, well, I must still have my "awakening" ahead of me. Someday my prince will come...and then I'll understand what it's like to want someone sexually. Even after sleeping with quite a few good-looking boys in college and being surprised that I felt nothing, I just figured, "Hey, so he's not The One. But it will happen one day. Clearly, I'm a late bloomer!"

Nobody (such as a family doctor or school nurse) sits you down as a young girl and says, if you don't have sexual desire or attraction toward another person as you edge into adolescence, there might be a problem. Instead, fathers and mothers and godparents and pediatricians give (or gave) every indication that a young girl not having any particular desire for sex is unremarkable, if not downright preferable. 

Maybe it's different for young girls growing up today. I'm glad that the spectrum of sexual desire is on people's radar today, so young people can understand that the spectrum ranges from those who have no need of sex to those who feel uncomfortable or worse without it. Just like some people are gifted musically and some will always be tone deaf.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

^^^

Exactly.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

An update as things have decayed further. I've given up on sex, but the pattern is still a bit interesting. 

PIV sex has completely stopped (at least 6 months). Basically she never wants sex more than once a week and often things get in the way. That, combined with her age has made PIV uncomfortable / painful for her. Her doctor recommended estrogen creams but she didn't want to try - and I'm pretty convinced that the basic issue is the lack of frequency. We use toys in our sex play. Once or twice we managed sexual activity a couple of times a week and she got comfortable with sex toys almost my size, but then we stopped again before we could do PIV. 

She has done something to injure both her hands (this is real - some tendon problem). This means her using her hands on me causes damage. Despite that, and despite my warning her to be careful, a few weeks ago she gave me a HJ again (insisting that it would be OK) and seriously damaged her hands. At this point I can't ever let her do that again. 

Unable to have PIV or use hands she did try giving me oral a couple of times (at her suggestion). Problem is that she really hates doing that and her idea of oral is just to lick a little so it doesn't work very well anyway. Anything more makes her gag and she finds disgusting. 

Interestingly for a LD person, she used to sometimes enjoy anal, but that also has to be done frequently for it to work. 

She feels like she *should* get me off once a week (except when we are busy), and her insistence on doing her duty is how she hurt her hands this time. Its also why she sort of insisted on trying to give me oral. 

I've talked to her and she is just not able to bring herself to engage in sex more than once a week. (which really means on average ever couple of weeks). The reasons vary all over the map, but this seems pretty much unmovable. On some occasions she has agreed to trying to increase frequency but she has turned me down on every single occasion that I've asked - until I stopped asking. 

She is weirdly compulsive on this. I haven't asked for sex in many months now (she never accepted back when I did) but every weekend when we are home she feels that we should do something. Now she is frustrated that there is "nothing she can do" for me. At the same time she is absolutely unable / unwilling to increase the frequency to where she would be comfortable with PIV again. 

I still do things for her in bed (oral etc) because I enjoy pleasing her, and don't really see any reason to stop. But from where we are, there is nothing that she is both able and willing to do for me. I could stop, but she wouldn't care very much if I did.

That leaves me with few options.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Sorry to hear of these developments.
We are here for you whether the updates are positive or negative. Or even (maybe especially) when you are not sure what to make of them.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Consider her using toys on you, or her using her feet. (FJ’s are a thing, I guess.). Just a thought.

Do you feel something positive towards her for trying, or for having a part of her caring about your needs? Or letting you be gently physical with her? Does her concern seem sincere, and motivated by love as opposed to just fear?

Just curious as to how you feel about it all.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It has to be difficult to go through this so long. I would think the biggest issue would be missing out on the feeling of closeness which comes from sex. That sharing of intimacy and experience of watching your partner in the throes of sexual pleasure, which you brought out in them, must be dearly missed. I would think it would create something more than a need. I would think it would create an obsession with anyone who showed a modicum of decency toward you. 

How do you handle those feelings? When women become flirtatious and touch your arm, or give you that little smile, what do you say or do? 

I find I miss this deep connection......some time, more than others. I have resigned myself to never having it again, though any effort to learn the, "tricks of the trade", may help to pass through those times of anguish and longing.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

My feeling are mixed / conflicted. I know that she is doing what for her is very hard even though for me its not nearly enough. Her trying to give me oral when she hates doing it shows she wants to try. OTOH, she isn't willing to do it in a way that works, so it just ends up being very frustrating. It makes her feel bad when I tell her to stop - but at the same time she is disliking what she is doing. 

A contributing problem is that I've become difficult to bring to O. My sex life consists of masturbating and I'm not comfortable going weeks without. As has been discussed other places men who only get off with their on hands lose sensitivity. 

I've suggested her using toys on me - but she's turned that down. With her hand problem a fleshlight like thinkg probably wouldn't work. She is OK with getting me off with a vibrator but that is one of the few things that I don't really like. (she recently said that was exacerbating her hand problem as well).

Feet - maybe, though not really my thing. My guess is it wouldn't work very well on me - but I'll try just about anything. I can try suggesting it.


So overall - I believe she is honestly trying and I appreciate that. OTOH her attempts fall short of what i consider a reasonable effort for a typical person. 

Sadly this is coupled with sex being completely unromantic for her - its clearly just one of her sunday chores. 


What I want seems so reasonable *to me*. Making love to my spouse a couple of times a week, along with doing anything she wishes in bed. We have time - we spend several evenings a week watching old movies. I'd also like sex to be part of our romantic dates and trips - not something that feels like she is just doing a chore. 






PieceOfSky said:


> Consider her using toys on you, or her using her feet. (FJ’s are a thing, I guess.). Just a thought.
> 
> Do you feel something positive towards her for trying, or for having a part of her caring about your needs? Or letting you be gently physical with her? Does her concern seem sincere, and motivated by love as opposed to just fear?
> 
> Just curious as to how you feel about it all.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Flirtatious women are very tempting of course. There are a couple of women I know who are clearly attracted to me. The one saving grace is that the existence of their attraction at least makes me feel desirable even if I can't get that from my wife. I flirt back, though within fairly carefully defined boundaries. 

The big problem is that it casts a cloud over what is otherwise a very happy relationship. It just seems broken. To me, after a day wandering around Venice, a wonderful dinner, then watching the sun set over the outer canal, getting into bed for some passionate love making seems like the normal end to the day. Missing that - and knowing that it won't happen during the day just sort of drains the color out of the romance for me. 





2ntnuf said:


> It has to be difficult to go through this so long. I would think the biggest issue would be missing out on the feeling of closeness which comes from sex. That sharing of intimacy and experience of watching your partner in the throes of sexual pleasure, which you brought out in them, must be dearly missed. I would think it would create something more than a need. I would think it would create an obsession with anyone who showed a modicum of decency toward you.
> 
> How do you handle those feelings? When women become flirtatious and touch your arm, or give you that little smile, what do you say or do?
> 
> I find I miss this deep connection......some time, more than others. I have resigned myself to never having it again, though any effort to learn the, "tricks of the trade", may help to pass through those times of anguish and longing.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Might your difficulty reaching O be because you have many thoughts, concerns, or resentments swirling in your head while you are doing it? That would likely be an issue if I were in your shoes.

I have no basis to judge the accuracy of your belief that she could adjust to PIV if she was willing to up the frequency. But, my sense is you feel some resentment towards her for this. (Understandable, and possibly deserved. Just pointing it out to you in case there is something you can do about it — in a world where there are few things you can do to effect, possibly, change.)

Her hands — is there a diagnosis?

I forget if you have tried sex therapy, but I fear there are dynamics here that will push you to further into resentment, hurt feelings, and big and wrong assumptions about what is in each other’s head. Maybe you need professional intervention (again?) before too much damage is done. You’ve got some things apparently going for you — her willingness to some degree, your empathy and hers. It’d be a shame if discouragement set permanently in if indeed there were creative solutions to the “mechanical” issues available.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It could be partially psychological, but partly physical. Also, I don't see it as unreasonably bad. Thins that work for most men (PIV, blowjobs etc) work for me, just a little slowly. 

The hand problem is some form of "trigger finger". Quite sure its real. 

The reason I think PIV would work if it was more common is two-fold. About 8 years ago when our sex life had declined to very rare, she found PIV painful and we stopped doing that. That was the first time I talked to her about our very limted sex life. She agreed to try and for a few months we had a great sex life - 3X/week, lots of variety. She seemed very happy with it as well - but it faded. 2 more attempts to bring it back have been met with less and less success. The thing is, when sex was common, she greatly enjoyed PIV and even enjoyed playing with quite large toys.

More recently she did try doing sexual things including toys 2X/week for about 3 weeks. By the end of that time she was comfortable and enjoying toys about my size. But before we tried PIV (I was trying to build up slowly), there was a another long break (long vacation with no sex) and she was back to only being comfortable with small toys . 

She agrees that frequent sex would probably work but says she just can't do it. 

I doubt I can get her to counseling because deep down she really doesn't understand that there is a problem. to her it would be sort of nice to have more sex, but it just isn't a big deal. She absolutely doesn't believe that its a big deal for me. (this has been true for our entire marriage - this was no bait / switch, just a case of my being too inexperienced before we got married to recognize the situation). 






PieceOfSky said:


> Might your difficulty reaching O be because you have many thoughts, concerns, or resentments swirling in your head while you are doing it? That would likely be an issue if I were in your shoes.
> 
> I have no basis to judge the accuracy of your belief that she could adjust to PIV if she was willing to up the frequency. But, my sense is you feel some resentment towards her for this. (Understandable, and possibly deserved. Just pointing it out to you in case there is something you can do about it — in a world where there are few things you can do to effect, possibly, change.)
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Trigger finger is a beach. Had surgery on one a couple years ago. The past six months I self treated another with a splint and the inflammation went away. Not fun but easily fixed. Steroid injection is also an option.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> An update as things have decayed further. I've given up on sex, but the pattern is still a bit interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Are her feet ok though? Serious question -feet jobs can be pretty good too.

Sorry I haven’t read all of the Uhtred thread but have you investigated what the pain during PIV is from? (Don’t say it’s from PIV, lol). Are you unusually large and do you use plenty of lubrication/take it very slowly/carefully at first? Vagina takes quite some time to expand/adjust to the penis size and shape. Also sometimes to do with penis shape. But it can accommodate almost any size/shape (within reason).

Anal sex: I’m curious why you think it should be done frequently for it to work? The regular amount should be fine, you just need quite a bit of time to warm up the area. The best way is to use your fingers carefully while you do oral.

From your post, it doesn’t sound to me like she is not trying or that she just ignores you. It sounds to me like she tries and fails, at least as far as your assessment goes. I realise this probably comes from your frustration but if she is willing to try, use this opportunity to experiment what she likes and what works. Try as many different things, slowly and carefully but with determination.

Once a week is not a disaster. With some negotiations, it might be possible to move it to twice a week if you desire it so much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Woman in her fifties here - why won't she try estrogen cream? I use it in combination with very low does oral estrogen and progesterin. It really will take care of her problem and give her some confidence. She doesn't to need to use it forever. It sounds to me like she anticipates the pain during intercourse, estrogen can be used to get her to relax. Like a man who uses viagra short term for performance anxiety.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> A contributing problem is that I've become difficult to bring to O. My sex life consists of masturbating and I'm not comfortable going weeks without. As has been discussed other places men who only get off with their on hands lose sensitivity.


I'm not sure this is true (losing sensitivity from masturbation)...I have not heard this before. Men who get older find it harder to orgasm - that's more of a reality that they have plenty of studies on.




uhtred said:


> What I want seems so reasonable *to me*. Making love to my spouse a couple of times a week, along with doing anything she wishes in bed. We have time - we spend several evenings a week watching old movies. I'd also like sex to be part of our romantic dates and trips - not something that feels like she is just doing a chore.


Maybe it feels like she is doing a chore to you. Have you asked her if it feels like a chore to her? Maybe it does, I don't know. To me, the above paragraph reads like a romantic fantasy where it's not just you wife who is a different person with different desires in that scenario: in that fantasy you are also a different person. 

What I find difficult to reconcile is: I get that your wife is difficult to get into the mood and for all the stars to align to have a successful intercourse session with her. But I remember that when I am *really* horny, and I mean really horny, I really would be happy with just about anything, even if my wife just brushed my penis with the back of her elbow accidentally. After our 2nd baby was born, I found it so difficult that I would sometimes wake up in the middle of the night and smell her hair, cry and come...She wasn't able to do anything sexual but eventually we found ways to compromise - She gave me a chunk of her hair in a plastic bag. (Just kidding.)

The fact that she agrees to intimacy with you is an indication that she is trying. Ok, deepthroat BJs are not her thing but it seems there are plenty of things she is willing to try.
I don't mean to minimize your pain but I just want to make sure you have definitely ruled out the possibility that 'things turning for the worse' has definitely nothing to do with you finding it harder to get off ('taking longer to orgasm').

I read so many threads where the men go in such length and depth about: 'if only my wife could agree to do this or that etc then it would change everything in our relationship' only later to mention in passing that they actually suffer from severe ED, PE or find it hard/impossible to orgasm but then project part of that frustration onto their partner (that she hates doing it). Sorry if this sounds insensitive - I don't mean your thread is one of those threads. Just ruling out possibilities. 
Finding a good sex therapist is probably the best way to go from here I think.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

uhtred said:


> Flirtatious women are very tempting of course. There are a couple of women I know who are clearly attracted to me. The one saving grace is that the existence of their attraction at least makes me feel desirable even if I can't get that from my wife. I flirt back, though within fairly carefully defined boundaries.
> 
> The big problem is that it casts a cloud over what is otherwise a very happy relationship. It just seems broken. To me, after a day wandering around Venice, a wonderful dinner, then watching the sun set over the outer canal, getting into bed for some passionate love making seems like the normal end to the day. Missing that - and knowing that it won't happen during the day just sort of drains the color out of the romance for me.


It almost sounds like you tempt yourself, intentionally staying in contact with flirtatious women, more importantly, when they are attracted to you. Feeling desirable is great when it's your wife, but anyone else is a tempting breach of contract. 

How do you keep yourself from getting too flirtatious? What is your line in the sand? How do you manage to keep your wife from feeling like she isn't the most important person in your life, while you are flirting with other women? Do you do it behind her back?

Why do you bother to attempt these romantic getaways when you know before booking, they will never end up in something sexual with your wife? Why do you play this game with yourself? 

Clearly, I can see that you are already going beyond normal boundaries within a marriage, and they would be considered cheating by some wives. I think you are, disingenuous. I find it curious that you are oblivious.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She has had 2 steroid injections. Got better - then (very sadly to say) she though it was all better and gave me a HJ and that set it off again. I tried to tell her not to risk it, but she insisted it was OK.



john117 said:


> Trigger finger is a beach. Had surgery on one a couple years ago. The past six months I self treated another with a splint and the inflammation went away. Not fun but easily fixed. Steroid injection is also an option.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

PIV: I'm largeish. She is smallish. We use plenty of lube, its a size / stretching issue. I do take lots of time - or at least as much as she will allow me to. She often gets bored with foreplay and just wants an O. Its comfortable if its frequent, but not if its rare. 

In the past we found similar issues with anal. If she gave me enough time it might be OK, but she generally doesn't want sex to last too long. 

Once a week - which on average is once every 2-3 weeks is the absolute max for her after much discussion. 




inmyprime said:


> Are her feet ok though? Serious question -feet jobs can be pretty good too.
> 
> Sorry I haven’t read all of the Uhtred thread but have you investigated what the pain during PIV is from? (Don’t say it’s from PIV, lol). Are you unusually large and do you use plenty of lubrication/take it very slowly/carefully at first? Vagina takes quite some time to expand/adjust to the penis size and shape. Also sometimes to do with penis shape. But it can accommodate almost any size/shape (within reason).
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She knows about it and has talked about trying it - but not yet. Its not a priority for her. 

There is the possibility that this provides a convenient excuse not to have sex. Difficult to tell. 



blahfridge said:


> Woman in her fifties here - why won't she try estrogen cream? I use it in combination with very low does oral estrogen and progesterin. It really will take care of her problem and give her some confidence. She doesn't to need to use it forever. It sounds to me like she anticipates the pain during intercourse, estrogen can be used to get her to relax. Like a man who uses viagra short term for performance anxiety.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I may be using "flirting" in a different way. I'm talking about VERY mild stuff - nothing overtly sexual. 

For example I was on a 12 hour flight with a female coworker. She fell asleep and slumped over onto my shoulder. A few weeks a bunch of us we were discussing all the miseries of long haul flights and someone commented on how annoying it was to have a passenger slide partly into your seat. I commented that the only time that happened to me was when another passenger fell asleep and slid onto my shoulder, but since she was a attractive woman it didn't bother me. 

My line in the sand is nothing overtly sexual. Nothing that isn't ambiguous. 


My wife enjoys travel and much of our travel is to "romantic" destinations. I'm a romantic at heard and I can't keep myself from thinking of them as romantic trips. How can you watch a sunset from an deserted beach on bora-bora with someone you love, and not have romantic thoughts???




2ntnuf said:


> It almost sounds like you tempt yourself, intentionally staying in contact with flirtatious women, more importantly, when they are attracted to you. Feeling desirable is great when it's your wife, but anyone else is a tempting breach of contract.
> 
> How do you keep yourself from getting too flirtatious? What is your line in the sand? How do you manage to keep your wife from feeling like she isn't the most important person in your life, while you are flirting with other women? Do you do it behind her back?
> 
> ...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Why not send her off on her own vacations and go on yours? You can go with her to a neutral type place that would let her know you don't expect anything, even though you enjoy her company. On yours, you can go to something that won't be romantic. No sense in tempting yourself. Just makes it tougher on you. 

I'm sure there are lots of things you are interested in besides sunsets on the beach, or a cup of hot cocoa under a blanket on a large sofa in front of a lit fireplace. 

It isn't going to get you anywhere, so why bother with the romance? Make her work for you love a little, if you really want to keep playing around like this. I can't see any way to keep your sanity, other than you breaching your marriage contract on occasion. 

The problem with that is, you eat away at your sanity and your character. Money isn't worth the risk. 





uhtred said:


> I may be using "flirting" in a different way. I'm talking about VERY mild stuff - nothing overtly sexual.
> 
> For example I was on a 12 hour flight with a female coworker. She fell asleep and slumped over onto my shoulder. A few weeks a bunch of us we were discussing all the miseries of long haul flights and someone commented on how annoying it was to have a passenger slide partly into your seat. I commented that the only time that happened to me was when another passenger fell asleep and slid onto my shoulder, but since she was a attractive woman it didn't bother me.
> 
> ...


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> 1. There is no truth to the belief that women weren't designed to want sex after childbear years.
> 2. It may be control but I think it has more to do with anxiety/shame combined with a lack of trust. I'm not suggesting you've somehow earned her lack of trust.
> 3. Responsive desire means I don't want sex unless I'm sexually aroused. First comes arousal, second comes desire to have sex. Without arousal, there is no desire to have sex.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

(since I can't click "like" 4 times)


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

uhtred said:


> She knows about it and has talked about trying it - but not yet. Its not a priority for her.
> 
> There is the possibility that this provides a convenient excuse not to have sex. Difficult to tell.


It is really worth pursuing this. My wife wound up doing just the cream, seems like it made a big difference.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Where there is a will, there is a way.

She simply doesn't care enough to do anything about it.

I always wonder about spouses who treat their partners so poorly.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

blahfridge said:


> Woman in her fifties here - why won't she try estrogen cream? I use it in combination with very low does oral estrogen and progesterin. It really will take care of her problem and give her some confidence. She doesn't to need to use it forever. It sounds to me like she anticipates the pain during intercourse, estrogen can be used to get her to relax. Like a man who uses viagra short term for performance anxiety.


I know U already answered this, and I hesitate to answer for him. But having read most of his threads, the underlying issue, IMO, is that his wife doesn't want to fix it _that_ bad.

I have an older teenager. A couple of years ago, he wanted a fairly expensive gaming computer. Being that he was at the age where he could work for it, we suggested if he wanted it that badly, to get a part time job over the summer, and he'd have it in no time. He grumbled and groaned about giving up his free time over the summer, and when he did the math, he decided it wasn't worth it. He'd rather sleep in on the weekend, hang with friends, etc.

In other words, despite him really, really wanting this gaming computer, he decided the over all effort wasn't worth it and there were other things he'd rather do. Besides, the prospect of getting a job was scary.

This is the same, IMO. Lots of talk about wanting things to be "normal", or at least wanting to be the sexual partner U desires. No real action. It's not that she doesn't care about U, it's that she doesn't care about _this_. Or not enough, anyway.

Unfortunately, the irony is that, although this is extremely important to U, he is also all talk, little action.

From his side of things, action is difficult, so I give him that. His options are pretty much limited to separation and threat of divorce, or having an affair (not recommended, obviously). Either thing may spark the seriousness of it all to his wife, but are also not preferred actions (especially the latter).

So the problem is, Mrs. U hears him talk, and that's about it. He continues to be an excellent husband in all regards, including taking care of her sexually. There's no threat to her way of life, and thus, it comes across as not _that_ important, or serious. She has no real motivation to do anything she doesn't want to do. And sadly, IMO, this now includes something as ridiculously simple as trying an estrogen cream.

Why she doesn't want to actually try and fix this of her own accord is beyond me. It almost seems like a phobia of sorts. That's her issue to deal with. Realistically, though, people won't change unless given a reason to do so. Mrs. U hasn't been given that reason.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

alexm said:


> I know U already answered this, and I hesitate to answer for him. But having read most of his threads, the underlying issue, IMO, is that his wife doesn't want to fix it _that_ bad.
> 
> I have an older teenager. A couple of years ago, he wanted a fairly expensive gaming computer. Being that he was at the age where he could work for it, we suggested if he wanted it that badly, to get a part time job over the summer, and he'd have it in no time. He grumbled and groaned about giving up his free time over the summer, and when he did the math, he decided it wasn't worth it. He'd rather sleep in on the weekend, hang with friends, etc.
> 
> ...


Yes, agree with everything. Just this part:

"He continues to be an excellent husband in all regards, including taking care of her sexually."

We always assume this but there is absolutely no way of knowing this whenever somebody posts only their side of their story. The only way to verify whether in Mrs U's eyes Mr U is an 'excellent husband' is to hear it from her.
(Also I am not sure that 'taking care of her sexually' is something that is a qualifier in a situation where the other spouse is LD). I don't mean to sound suspicious, U's posts are indicative that he's indeed a great guy. It's just that we don't know what goes on in wife's head unfortunately and how she may or may not see him. She may be thinking: 'why should I do this or that if he isn't even bothered to do this or that for me'. Maybe she is unreasonable in thinking that way, maybe it's not on her mind at all - but we just don't know. And I am always hesitant to assume stuff.

Re cream: I would get the cream myself and put in her hands. Actually come to think of it, I would apply it myself. Consider it part of foreplay :wink2:


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## David51 (Sep 12, 2017)

Ever try playing her game.....? ....ignore her sexy nightgown......ignore her advances, don’t be her trick pony when she mentions she is in the mood. 
When she wants you to take her here or there ...say you have other plans...go to the movies by yourself if need be or go park you car in a lot and read a book. Don’t be so available. Make her want you....it works believe me. The problem with long term relationships is that one or both take the other for granted all to often. 

She expects you to react the same way you always have, it will worry her when you don’t and then she will react to accordingly. Try it, have a little fun with her, it sounds to me like she needs to be unsettled.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> One of the moderators, @Amplexor has posted a few times that during his reconciliation for his wife, who had one foot out the door and according to him was highly skeptical, he asked her to give him 3 months (I think it was 3) of her sexual submission.* Not that he was going to dominate her or tie her up*, he meant that she was to give him blanket consent to have sex whenever he wanted. He also assured her that he wouldn't be demanding, that the kind of sex they would have would be sex that that usually had, and that being in his 50's it was very unlikely he'd want sex more often than 2-3 times a week, usually 2. During that time period, they continued to work on their marriage. His wife saw first hand that when he wanted sex, and she wasn't "in the mood" but consented because of their deal, she always became aroused and always enjoyed sex. She learned that just didn't have to begin sex already aroused. She learned that trusting to her husband to make it good for her worked. Amp credits this deal as the corner stone of their successful reconciliation.


Why the hell not? lol


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

David51 said:


> Ever try playing her game.....? ....ignore her sexy nightgown......ignore her advances, don’t be her trick pony when she mentions she is in the mood.
> When she wants you to take her here or there ...say you have other plans...go to the movies by yourself if need be or go park you car in a lot and read a book. Don’t be so available. Make her want you....it works believe me. The problem with long term relationships is that one or both take the other for granted all to often.
> 
> She expects you to react the same way you always have, it will worry her when you don’t and then she will react to accordingly. Try it, have a little fun with her, it sounds to me like she needs to be unsettled.
> ...


She pull this crap on you, man, @uhtred ?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Fair question.

She usually says that she thinks I'm wonderful and that there isn't anything I should change. Sometimes she will complain but it seems to be about trivial things - like forgetting to turn out the lights etc. 

Are there major things I'm not doing? Maybe. If so, she hasn't said. 





inmyprime said:


> Yes, agree with everything. Just this part:
> 
> "He continues to be an excellent husband in all regards, including taking care of her sexually."
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Some truth here.

Yes, she feels like doing sexual things for me is a chore - that is a lot of the problem. She really acts as if its another sunday chore - and doesn't want to waste too much time on it. (including not wanting me to spend much time on her)

OTOH what she is willing to to is really limited. For her giving oral means licking - doesn't want any of my penis in her mouth. Even that she dislikes and only wants to do for a couple of minutes. She can't use her hands anymore (fair enough). Won't take any steps to make PIV work again. Enjoys some anal stimulation - finger, small toy, but not penis (again OK, but it did work in the past).

That really doesn't leave much that she can do. Couple that with the frustration of any sex being infrequent, and her only trying to get me off maybe half the time and things don't work well.





inmyprime said:


> snip
> Maybe it feels like she is doing a chore to you. Have you asked her if it feels like a chore to her? Maybe it does, I don't know. To me, the above paragraph reads like a romantic fantasy where it's not just you wife who is a different person with different desires in that scenario: in that fantasy you are also a different person.
> 
> snip
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If her hands can be used for cooking, gardening, or typing... 

Just saying. Trigger finger does not improve without intervention.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> Fair question.
> 
> She usually says that she thinks I'm wonderful and that there isn't anything I should change. Sometimes she will complain but it seems to be about trivial things - like forgetting to turn out the lights etc.
> 
> Are there major things I'm not doing? Maybe. If so, she hasn't said.


It's interesting, @uhtred, as over the years with my wife, I've realized she also has "nothing to complain about" in regards to me. Do I believe that, though? Not really. That would imply I'm the perfect husband - which nobody is.

Personally, I think some people - my wife, your wife, others - recognize they have a good thing and don't want to rock the boat. It's not so much about settling, IMO, as it is about having a good partner/spouse and being perfectly content with that. Not striving for greatness, in other words. Some people are simply like that - "good" is perfectly fine.

The problem is that many people (myself included) aren't content with simply being "good" (or adequate, or fine, or, or, or...). I'm not like that in every aspect of my life, however. As far as my career is concerned, I'm fine with it being what it is, for example. I could easily double or triple my workload, and thus my income, but... meh. But for the main sport I play, I still want to get better at it, even in my early 40's. My body wholeheartedly disagrees in this whole "getting better" thing, however, but that doesn't stop me.

And likewise, I strive to be a better partner, husband, lover, etc.

It's _me_ that's not content with just being "good". My wife is, however. As a wife, she IS good. In her eyes, I AM a good husband. But she's perfectly content with being a good wife, and me being a good husband. There's no drive, as far as she's concerned, for her - OR I - to be great.

It's a difficult concept for some to wrap their heads around, myself included, and we often just use the term "settling" to define it. That's not always the case, I don't think. My wife IS happy, truly. Just as I AM happy with my career. We could have a great marriage, or I could further my career - if we, or I, wanted to. But just as I'm content, even happy, with my work, she is content and happy with the marriage.

I wouldn't trade my job for anything, just as I don't believe my wife would trade our marriage for anything. But my job doesn't define me, just as the marriage doesn't define my wife. If my career goes belly-up, it's not going to ruin me personally. But at the same time, I obviously don't want that to happen, so I work _just_ hard enough to maintain it. In other words, I don't spend a lot of time stressing about my career, because in my eyes, it's just a job. That's foreign to many people, but again, it doesn't define me. I'm perfectly fine being good at what I do, and to be perfectly honest, this is what my clients like about me - I don't over-promise and under-deliver. They know exactly what they're going to get from me at all times. I will go above and beyond, often, but there has to be a balance, too. In other words, I'm steady, solid, and reliable. And I charge accordingly.

This is how my wife approaches our marriage, I believe. I know what I'll get from her, and it's steady, solid and reliable. And she charges accordingly 

Therefore, the problem is really me. I want greatness out of the marriage, and I'm willing to (over) pay for it. Often, like uhtred I imagine, we already ARE over-paying for it, but are receiving only a "good" return. And the reality is, my wife is only expecting to be "paid" for what she's currently giving me. She's not asking for more pay - I'm just giving it to her, expecting more in return. Doesn't always work that way, for some people.


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## David51 (Sep 12, 2017)

alexm said:


> It's interesting, @uhtred, as over the years with my wife, I've realized she also has "nothing to complain about" in regards to me. Do I believe that, though? Not really. That would imply I'm the perfect husband - which nobody is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think you have hit the nail on the head, I am in same position as you but I am a good bit older than you. At one time i was complaining that I wasn’t getting enough sex (I was in my mid 40’s). Wife complained that I had gained so much weight that she did not find me appealing. I had the feeling that this was bullchit but I couldn’t deny the fact so Idid something about it. 

I went on diet, got fit, at the gym every other day without fail. And guess what? Nothing changed at home but what did change was the other women in my life behaved different towards me. 

I had no intention of cheating but I changed my routine so that my wife often did not know where I was, I made excuses to go out in the evening. Sometimes I went to my brothers and just watched tv, now and then I’d take in a movie, once I went to the mall and just for fun I stopped by the ladies cosmetic counter at Macys and rubbed a perfume sample on my body in way that would suggest I had been with another woman. This behavior put my wife on notice and things changed in the bedroom. Plus I had fun with my little deception and found creative ways to mess with her mind.

Once I became content I stopped my rouse and then slowly she returned to her old self. I was tempted to confront her but was more fun playing the game plus it got me out at night. 

I get uninvited sales calls on my cell phone so when they would come in and Susan was in the room I would leave the room with the phone just to look suspicious.

I’d catch her checking out my phone but back then cells were not as sophisticated as now so nothing to see. 
She confronted me a couple of times, once I told her I had to work and she came by my place of business I wasn’t there but my car was.......that did it and my sex life picked up again.

This may sound like a lot of trouble to go to but it worked and was fun and I never once lied to her or cheated on her so I had a clean conscience. 

Now my sex life is pretty normal once maybe twice a month but We have been married a long time and I am in my mid 60’s and am content.

So that is my story of how I got my wife interested in me without threatening or confrontation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I have always said that ambition is like libido, if you need your spouse to have it, and they don't, very difficult to force someone else to have / want more. If you want / need your spouse to aspire to "greatness", and they are content with "good enough", tough to get them to "up their game" consistently over a long period of time. Except by making it clear you will leave if they don't. And they might decide you aren't worth it. At which point it is probably best for both of you if you leave.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> If her hands can be used for cooking, gardening, or typing...
> 
> Just saying. Trigger finger does not improve without intervention.




You mean divine intervention? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

uhtred said:


> She knows about it and has talked about trying it - but not yet. Its not a priority for her.


For me, this would be a big deal. It's also hard to understand why she was seemingly willing to do more difficult things to please with her sore hands, but not do a seemingly easy task of applying estrogen cream.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

Steve1000 said:


> For me, this would be a big deal. It's also hard to understand why she was seemingly willing to do more difficult things to please with her sore hands, but not do a seemingly easy task of applying estrogen cream.


Because if it works she no longer has an excuse.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> You mean divine intervention?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


https://www.pennsaid.com/

Generic available...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I suspect that here is a lot of truth to this. 

For whatever reason she doesn't want sex with me. She feels she *should* do things for me but doesn't really want to - so an excuse may be welcome - even if she won't admit it- maybe not even to herself. 




Malaise said:


> Because if it works she no longer has an excuse.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I find your posts are sometimes curious. I guess it's normal for someone who doesn't get sex. I don't know. I don't get sex and haven't for probably longer than you, but I don't find myself encouraging anyone to be promiscuous. I always figured that was up to them and any input from me is not allowing them to make up their own mind. Sometimes, I wish I understood, but most times, I'm just glad I'm not in a situation where I believe I have no choices, even though there are some.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If you mean my posts to other people, they aren't closely related to my own situation. I generally believe that sex is a good thing and I encourage it- even if I don't have that option myself. 



2ntnuf said:


> I find your posts are sometimes curious. I guess it's normal for someone who doesn't get sex. I don't know. I don't get sex and haven't for probably longer than you, but I don't find myself encouraging anyone to be promiscuous. I always figured that was up to them and any input from me is not allowing them to make up their own mind. Sometimes, I wish I understood, but most times, I'm just glad I'm not in a situation where I believe I have no choices, even though there are some.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

uhtred said:


> I suspect that here is a lot of truth to this.
> 
> For whatever reason she doesn't want sex with me. She feels she *should* do things for me but doesn't really want to - so an excuse may be welcome - even if she won't admit it- maybe not even to herself.


Every now and again, I struggle to understand why, exactly, you're still with her. And I mean that with the utmost respect.

I mean, I _understand_ why you are - similar reasons for me staying in my marriage, I think. It's overall "good", we do love our wives (despite this same general issue/problem), but also... fear, I suspect.

I know I've mentioned the similarities numerous times, between your marriage and mine, but always with the caveat that mine includes actual sex without conditions _during_. Before, or leading up to - yes. During - no.

I honestly don't think I could mentally handle the hoops you have to jump through before AND during any sort of sex.

My marriage will likely never include the type of sexuality I desire/crave/require - ie. the mutual need for each other in that way, outside of the actual sex. As I've said before, my wife is either "off" or "on", there's no in between. Ideally (to me, anyway) one wants to be like a dimmer switch, hovering in the middle. There are times when it's completely off, times when it's completely on, but over all, it's usually halfway in between. Receptive at all (or most) times, in other words.

If my wife is like a light switch that only has "on" and "off", yours is like a dimmer switch that's perpetually in the "off" position, and only occasionally peaks at the mid-range, max. The rest of us, for the most part, are dimmer switches in the middle range. The bulb is always on, just not at full bright - but it's quicker and easier to to get it there.


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