# EA or PA: Need Advice



## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

Hello. I've been reading this forum for a while but this is my first post. Here's my story.
I found out that my husband was having an affair 7 weeks ago after I noticed on our phone bill that he had been exchanging 2,000 text messages per month with a number I didn't know. So I waited for him to get home and fall asleep and I went through his phone, wallet, car, bag, pockets. I found out who she was and I read all of their messages that were still there: many messages were missing in the middle of a day's worth of texts and I found one from her that said only "delete that". I didn't find anything sexual but I just assumed that the relationship was.
That same night I jumped the gun and confronted him. I woke him up in the middle of the night after just steaming for hours and I told him (loudly haha) that I had read all of his text messages including the ones he deleted, I had seen all of the picture messages he had been sending and I knew everything. Of course I didn't know what kinds of pictures they had exchanged except a couple of really normal ones of things and one of her dressed in some kind of fugly hobo costume that I found and I hadn't read the ones he deleted but he doesn't know anything about technology and I do. So I proceeded like I knew everything and I was going to give him one chance to tell me the truth about each question I asked, hoping that he believed I already knew the answer. He says that there was no sexual contact, only talking and one incident of an inappropriately intimate hug (like too long, emotional) on the last occasion they saw each other before she went to another state for work for 6 months.

So here's the timeline as I can figure:
June 24-July 25 They meet in a class and do a big final project together
July- Text messages increase but I can't see to whom they are sent anymore (records are kept for 90 days)
August- She leaves the state
September 20- D-Day

I have been conducting routine searches of our apartment/his car looking for a second cell phone/SIM card, any paper communications, I have a keylogger on our computers, I pulled his credit report looking for secret credit cards and I regularly monitor the usage data on our cell phone account and check his phone every few nights. I haven't found any suggestion of any no contact agreement violations and he swears that he hasn't had any communication with her since he ended it (under my supervision). I continue to look for evidence of a sexual relationship but I fear it's too late to ever prove that on my own. I have asked him many times and in many ways if the relationship was physical and his story hasn't changed but it's been clearly established that he's a liar so this isn't enough for me to believe it was emotional only. I asked him if he would take a polygraph test to prove that he's telling the truth and he agreed without flinching. 

Some background:
We are both 26 and have been married for 5 years. We got married young while he was in the military. We're both students, no kids, no property.

What do you guys think? Does it sound like he's on the up and up or do you see anything fishy? What else would you do to find the truth?


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Wow, you have done your homework. 

Nicely played. You have covered the computer, phones, VAR and talked about the polygraph. 

So is he sorry for what he did or sorry that he got caught?

Has he been to counseling? He spent time and energy in this situation to communicate with her. (and whatever else they did)

What has he done for you? You had him go NC, good. But what has he done to show you that you are the number one and only one in his life? 

He better come up with something good. How would he feel if you had the affair? How would he deal with the hurt and the betrayal? 

Keep up the good work. Have you used the 180 to help yourself detach, in case he contacts her again?

Has he given you access to his work email, etc, to show you that he is transparent and not hiding anything from you?


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## Rugs (Apr 12, 2013)

We all know what hugging leads to......


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

I don't believe in absolutes. There may be a chance that your husband didn't have sex with this woman, but I believe it is incredibly small. I base this on the volume of texts and the number of months they've been texting. And on one other thing; it would be extremely rare for a man to lavish that much time and attention on the OW and not get sex in return. You would be well advised to assume that it's a PA.

Whether a PA is your deal breaker or not, being sure about the PA is vital. Even if it's not a deal breaker you have to know what you're trying to forgive.

So my advice is to implement the 180 to detach, talk to an attorney, and tell your husband that if he doesn't admit to the PA he will need to take a polygraph if he wants you to consider R. If he refuses, start the divorce process and keep going until your D is final or until he agrees. Either way, you'll be better off in the long run.

Sorry you're here.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

One other thing Lily,

I missed that he agreed to the poly. That's good. Hold him to that promise. It's not that poly's are terribly reliable; it's his willingness to take one (display of remorse) and what can happen ahead of one (last minute confessions) that's more important.

If he takes is and passes it, you may still have your doubts. But you'll have no regrets for using every method at your disposal to unearth the truth.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Did any of the text messages include being called babe? I find a man receiving this word is almost always a PA. Note the inverse is not necessarily true.

Not really enuf to say if it was physical.


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

harrybrown:
It seems like he is truly sorry for what he did; he has given me several good apologies that seemed very sincere. He says it's the worst thing he's ever done in his life, he's so disappointed in himself, he's lost himself, become something he hates, etc. It appears that he's remorseful for the right reasons but I have trouble trusting my judgement right now due to the circumstances.

He/we are not yet in counselling yet- I wanted a little bit of time to let my emotions level out before I did anything that was/looked like reconciliation. We talked about finding a marriage counselor today and I think we're ready to work on things now. Should we use the same person for individual counselling as well as marriage counselling so that they have the most complete information or is it recommended that we each have our own individual counselors?

As for what he has done to show me that I'm the one he wants, he has started to work on this part. He has read the infidelity books that I bought and is doing the exercises in them to help him learn to recognize his feelings. He also asked me to begin using a communication format that was in one of the books to structure our talks more effectively and has kept us on the schedule that we agreed to. He has started telling me about his feelings more openly than ever before and is asking me how I'm feeling regularly as well as asking if there is anything he can do for me. He has started helping out around the house (which he never did before) and has cut way back on video games/watching sports and is spending that time with me. So far he hasn't been trying to "win me over" romantically but I'm not sure that I'm ready to accept any romantic gestures and I'm guessing he's not sure either. 

I asked him early on what would he think if he were in my shoes (would he believe it wasn't physical) and what he would do. He said he would think the worst and that he would be furious and wouldn't be able to conduct himself as well as I have.

I have looked at the 180 and I have been taking better care of my appearance and stopped showing him weakness (not crying in front of him, etc) however I have concerns about a few of the points. I have a difficult time believing it would be good for me to shut him out emotionally and act like I'm happy- I feel like I need to work these issues out with him whether it's for reconciliation or for closure of our relationship. Wouldn't this part of the 180 interfere with solving our issues?

I do have access to all of his electronic accounts (that I know about of course!) and he has agreed to transparency. He also checks in with me frequently and has been home when he says he will be. 

Rugs: 
This is precisely why I'm so afraid that this is simply the first drop of a trickle truth. 

badmemory:
I agree that it seems so unlikely that it wasn't physical. He tells me that he was feeling lonely and like I wasn't interested in him and that getting attention from her made him feel special and wanted. Based on this I can see how having someone interested in his every message all day long would satisfy the emotional connection he felt he was missing in our marriage- but wouldn't it be even more emotionally satisfying to have someone sexually interested him too? I just can't believe that he was willing to cross some lines and not others- why?

Whether it's a PA or EA isn't necessarily the deal breaker- it's the the lying straight to my face about it. Thank you for what you said about the ultimatum: admit it or get divorced. That is spot on with how I'm feeling. I have been dealing with this as though it was physical and he's still lying about it since day 1 but I can't reconcile or forgive without the truth.

I think I will start working on the polygraph and divorce to get ready for an ultimatum like this.

Thank you everyone for all of your questions and advice- It's been very helpful to get some perspective and do the thinking that you guys have inspired.


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

weightlifter:
I didn't find any evidence of any pet names being used and I asked him directly if either of them called each other anything other than their names, he says they didn't.


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

Mini Update:

I was browsing through my evidence the other day and I read a text messages that said "I'm hoarding your snapchats" and I was like 'lol dumb b**** can't spell snapshots'. Well I Googled the word snapchat and if you didn't already know- guess what it's a picture messaging app that allows users to set a timer for when the images will self-destruct. Something like 10 seconds to a minute to view the images. Now why would anyone need such a thing?

I confronted my husband and he says it was her idea to get it. She's self conscious about having her picture taken. Felt more comfortable pix messaging with it. Lots of my friends use it. We just sent regular pictures of things throughout our days. Nothing dirty.

Oh wait and some just of her smiling and stuff... :rofl:

This is hopeless isn't it?


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

LilyoftheValley said:


> Mini Update:
> *app that allows users to set a timer for when the images will self-destruct. Something like 10 seconds to a minute to view the images.* Now why would anyone need such a thing?


Some high school girls were using this to send naked selfies to their boyfriends or wannabe boyfriends. Of course, the guys figured out how to capture the images in those 10 seconds, so then the guys had a permanent image.

I think the most common use is for girls to send boys naked pics.

Here's one story:

Sexting Scandal Rocks Ridgewood High School « CBS New York


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Lilly,

The 180 is for you. It is to prepare you for the possibility of being without him. He will not be there emotionally for you if he is gone and he can manipulate you by your emotions.

You can't change or fix him. He has to do it himself and he has to be all in. If he is not, then he just isn't worth it. There are so many false Rs. Be strong.

Remember, you are beautiful. There is a reason he married you. You are worth it. And 'it' is he needs to give you the world. If he is holding back anything, trickle truthing etc... serve him papers. If that doesn't wake him up, don't waste your time.

I am sorry you are here sister. You are doing very well. God bless!


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Will_Kane said:


> Some high school girls were using this to send naked selfies to their boyfriends or wannabe boyfriends. Of course, the guys figured out how to capture the images in those 10 seconds, so then the guys had a permanent image.
> 
> I think the most common use is for girls to send boys naked pics.
> 
> ...


iphones can easily screen capture to photos... I'm sure others can too.


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## amiotcqss (Nov 14, 2013)

So is he sorry for what he did or sorry that he got caught?


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## 86857 (Sep 5, 2013)

Hi Lily, sorry you are here.

Let's assume it was PA. 
I'm taking a hard line view. I want to be very realistic because you are very young. My advice would not be the same to a 40 year old with mortgage & kids. Months down the track, maybe even years, the things I point out below will be the nagging little questions you will have. I know because I have been there. You may never get the truth so those questions may never go away. Cheaters/liars don't tell the truth even when caught and only admit to what they have to. 

And when would it have stopped? They rarely do. It wouldn't have unless you found him out. They would have continued building their relationship with you like a fool on the sidelines in blissful ignorance. You are not a fool but your husband treated you as if he thought you were. And what happened to the love such a short time into your marriage? 


LilyoftheValley said:


> - he had been exchanging 2,000 text messages per month with a number I didn't know.


2000? Boy did they get to know each other well. That isn't texting, that is an addiction! 
So how would it have been when they met in person? . . . 


> Many messages were missing in the middle of a day's worth of texts and I found one from her that said only "delete that". I didn't find anything sexual but I just assumed that the relationship was.


Why do people delete some texts and not others???. . . Their little secret. It's a horrible to know that your WH and some OW have stuff between them that you don't know about and will possibly never find out. 
If he claims that the deleted texts were just 'talking', I would ask him whether he thinks you are a fool. OW even asked him to delete one of hers. What could she have said or what picture could she have sent that caused her to ask him to delete if? 


> He says that there was no sexual contact, only talking and one incident of an inappropriately intimate hug (like too long, emotional) on the last occasion they saw each other before she went to another state for work for 6 months.


They always say there was no sexual contact. I laugh because "We just talked" is a sentence that every cheater uses a LOT. When they do admit to something physical, 9 times out of 10 they say 'We kissed". On TAM kiss=sex. You sure are lucky she had to go away. But it's not much to be grateful for. 

It would be no surprise to me if it had turned PA, especially when she learned that she had to move away.

Did they meet in person? Where? How often? Is she married, bf? If so have you told her husband/bf? Did WH go to her house? I'm guessing she was single and at an age where she was shopping for a husband. Have you questioned him in detail about all that? You need to. If they did meet and it was as full on as their texts I would be very suspicious about PA. If they didn't have sex it was only a matter of time. That's what happens with intense friendships like this between men and women. 


> I continue to look for evidence of a sexual relationship but I fear it's too late to ever prove that on my own.


 You will look for a long time and it probably is too late, though not impossible, to prove it on your own. 
At the tender age of 26 you are already in R which is so sad. It is an incredibly long and painful process. Look at all the snooping you have had to do in the past 7 weeks for a start. What a way to live.
It is ridiculous to have to give him a book to read on how husbands should behave. He knew that very well, all cheaters do but he was so taken with her that he decided to do it anyway, trashed your marriage and put you in 2nd place. As far as communication goes that he is reading books about too, don't forget that he was well able to communicate with OW - but not you. 2000 texts!


> I have asked him many times and in many ways if the relationship was physical and his story hasn't changed. . . But it's been clearly established that he's a liar so this isn't enough for me to believe it was emotional only. I asked him if he would take a polygraph test to prove that he's telling the truth and he agreed without flinching.


Their story almost never changes from what comes out in the first couple of conversations, especially when they are quite sure you won't be able to find any evidence. It happened to me. But I didn't give up as my gut wouldn't let me. I tried so hard to believe him. In the end, I found evidence. I went with my gut. Listen to your gut.


> We are both 26 and have been married for 5 years. We got married young while he was in the military. We're both students, no kids, no property.
> What do you guys think? Does it sound like he's on the up and up or do you see anything fishy? What else would you do to find the truth?


You are so young to have a marriage that's already tainted. You sound as if you may consider divorce. Given all the circumstances I definitely would. He may be on the up and up but his journey will be a heck of a lot easier than yours. He knows everything. There is a 1000 piece jigsaw puzzle, he has the 1000 pieces. You have 500, 700, 900? It's very hard to say. 
What I am concerned about are the years you have ahead of you without those missing pieces. 
Would you have married him if you knew he was a liar and had the capacity to have an EA, maybe PA which after all was stopped by you, not by him? Basically you didn't know him. 
Would you have even dated him?

Sometimes I think that the fact a WS had the potential to do this in the first place is the deal breaker. The taint will always be on the marriage and the fear will remain even if it does hide away out of sight.

Being as young as you are I would run. Sorry.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Is the OW single, married or have a boyfriend? 

Is your H helping you to let the OW's H or boyfriend about their relationship? I am concerned about trickle-truth. Tell your H to write out a timeline of the relationship, including these pictures.
Did they send naked pictures to each other? He has one chance to tell the entire truth. If you find out anything else, it is divorce.

So how many texts, etc. is he now sending you ?


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Oh, and just agreeing to the poly doesn't mean he's been honest. My ex agreed to take the poly. Actually, no, he _volunteered_ to do it before I even asked. 

He was gambling that _seeming_ honest and willing to take the poly would convince me of his sincerity and keep me from actually scheduling it. When I did follow up and make the appointment, he waited until the night before to confess to a number of deal-breaking items that I hadn't known about. If I had insisted he go through with the poly, there would have either been further parking-lot confessions or he would have failed it. Because (I later discovered) there were still things he was lying about even then.

Just don't let he appearance of honesty keep you from following through to verify anything that comes out of his mouth.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

IMO if he says they kissed then I would say PA for sure. Most cheaters use this line, "We only kissed" = we had sex.

Hugging - I am not convinced that it was a PA.

But I am with others in that I would assume the worse.


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## Pault (Aug 15, 2012)

IMHO - If someone swears ona childs life, if they offer to take any form of lie detection programme then I would start you consider a bluff needs calling. So often we see on these *rap Tv programmes people taking a poly because they offered it up that they would and then WOW they are caught out. Its the same in real life if you call the bluff and ask for the evidence which is simple to check eventually they will drop that guard and get caught. Frequently they will offer a poly, then use a smoke and mirrors diversion and demand you do to. Still call the bluff. 

Statements like "we just kissed" is supprisingly considered, if its done in anything less than a civil greeting (the peck on the cheek) sexual contact. So in this case they have embarked on a sexual contact.
We hugged - open to definition at the time the hug took place. I.e. Hugging following a sexual kiss!

As people who have been a little unprepared emergency responses have just come out, we just hugged, we only kissed. In a cheats mind unless actual penetration took place they will consider anything else as a mere stumble and fumble. This is the defense used to redirect the issue. 
With the evidence listed here, the volume of communication and the clear, deliberate specific deletions of texts and pictures then there is enough to prompte more investigation. This might include finding software that will recover files from a cell phones card. 
Whilst not perfect you need ONE example only of a picture or text passage that will condem.

Such software is out there but it is expensive to purchase one that is used and actually works. If you can get on that can read the cells card whilst its in the cell its better as it can then be "tracked" quickly and without having to dismatle the cell to get inside.
I suspect some of the guys her could even come up with some sites where purchasable or freeware migt be available.


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

LilyoftheValley said:


> Hello. I've been reading this forum for a while but this is my first post. Here's my story.
> I found out that my husband was having an affair 7 weeks ago after I noticed on our phone bill that he had been exchanging 2,000 text messages per month with a number I didn't know. So I waited for him to get home and fall asleep and I went through his phone, wallet, car, bag, pockets. I found out who she was and I read all of their messages that were still there: many messages were missing in the middle of a day's worth of texts and I found one from her that said only "delete that". I didn't find anything sexual but I just assumed that the relationship was.
> That same night I jumped the gun and confronted him. I woke him up in the middle of the night after just steaming for hours and I told him (loudly haha) that I had read all of his text messages including the ones he deleted, I had seen all of the picture messages he had been sending and I knew everything. Of course I didn't know what kinds of pictures they had exchanged except a couple of really normal ones of things and one of her dressed in some kind of fugly hobo costume that I found and I hadn't read the ones he deleted but he doesn't know anything about technology and I do. So I proceeded like I knew everything and I was going to give him one chance to tell me the truth about each question I asked, hoping that he believed I already knew the answer. He says that there was no sexual contact, only talking and one incident of an inappropriately intimate hug (like too long, emotional) on the last occasion they saw each other before she went to another state for work for 6 months.
> 
> ...


Dear LilyoftheValley,

You haven't been married very long and don't have children. Thus, a divorce now, while painful, will not be as wrenching as it will be if he cheats on you again in the future, when you have a family.

In deciding what to do, think very hard about whether he is the man with whom you want to have a family and spend the rest of your life. Consider both his strengths and weaknesses then ask yourself, if you knew before you married him what you know about him now (good and bad), would you still have married him.

If the answer is "no," then you would probably be better of divorcing him and looking for someone else. If the answer is "yes," then, it gets more complicated.

Assuming you do want to give him another chance, you have to decide between several different approaches. The "180" is probably what I would recommend because, properly executed, it accomplishes two things: it sends him the strongest possible message that his behavior is unacceptable and it prepares you to move on if he does not clean up his act. However, there is a downside -- it may result in the two of you becoming emotionally detached to the point that divorce becomes more or less inevitable.

The other approach, continuing to remain more or less fully engaged with him (while monitoring his communications, of course., to make sure he has ended his illicit relationship) has the advantage of strengthening your emotional bond and may speed up the reconciliation process (assuming that reconciliation is what you want). However, the downside is that it may lead to the two of you rug sweeping his affair with the result that he may be more likely to engage in extramarital relationships in the future.

Please understand that, while you will have to decide eventually whether to try to fix your marriage or not, there is no deadline for you to make this decision. He is in the wrong, you are the injured party, therefore, you can move at your own pace. What you need to decide now is how to interact with him. While logic should play a role in this decision, in the end, what you do will probably be determined more by your emotions and there's nothing wrong with that.

Whatever you do, how he reacts will give you insight into how he feels about you, his marriage and himself. When the time comes, this will probably be the best basis on which to make the decision whether to stay with or leave him.

One other point: no one knows the extent to which he is being honest with or deceiving you. While much of the advice you will receive on TAM/CWI is sound, bear in mind that most responders here are victims of infidelity and therefore have a bias against cheaters. Listen to what they have to say because, collectively, they have a lot of wisdom. But do not be unduly influenced by what others say. This is your marriage and your life. Do what you believe is best for you, after weighing all the advice, reflecting on the actual evidence of the extent of his infidelity and observing what he does to set things right.

Wishing you the best.


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

Thank you for all of your responses. I want to reply to each comment but I probably won't get through everything before my husband gets home and I don't want him to know what I'm up to since it would help him become a better liar in the event that he is still lying. So bear with me here.

Will_Kane
That is exactly what I believe they were using the app for; I mean how could I possibly believe that a husband and the other woman need pictures of their lunch to disappear? Sexually suggestive pictures is the only thing that makes sense.

MovingAhead
I know that there are ways to save the pictures anyway but unfortunately(?) he didn't save any that I could find. I was, and continue to be, pretty thorough. I wish there was a way to go through her phone, no reason for her not to keep pictures of him. There's probably no way to convince her to turn over evidence to me or tell me the truth about anything, is there?

I'm trying to brace myself for trickle truth, so far he hasn't admitted to anything that deepens the relationship. When I found out about snapchat he "explained" it and answered all of my questions but 1) I don't believe his explanation and 2) to find out about this detail I had to question what I had originally believed to be a typo, Google the typo and then confront him. That is not going to cut it as honesty and I told him so. I feel like he's only telling me about things that I ask him about and hasn't come forward with anything that I didn't specifically demand to know or produce evidence of. When he told me about the hug, he did so when I asked him one of my many forms of 'did you have any physical contact with her' questions. Am I right to assume that I'm under the trickle truth spout?

Thank you for your encouragement, it just so happens that I am beautiful and smart and couldn't be convinced for a moment that without my husband I would be alone forever. I do love him and if I had a magic wand we would be married and live happily ever after but I don't believe in magic so I am going to have to think long and hard about whether or not he can become the man I deserve.

I don't like it but I will review the 180.

amiotcqss
He appears that he is sorry for what he did, he says he is, but (there's always a but) how should I know if he is sorry for the right reason/sincere? If he can cover up an affair and text her goodnight while he is in bed with me right after he tells me goodnight and that he loves me, he clearly knows how to spin some bull****.

**********
I appreciate a hard line view, I need to consider all of the information/scenarios I can get before I can make a proper decision. I am already so disturbed by what I don't know and I know that I can't live the rest of my life in this marriage without somehow becoming satisfied that I know what I need to know, so I am very grateful for the points you have brought up. I feel like he is only admitting to what I bring up and I am worried that this is who he is and not an otherwise good person who is so afraid and confused that he doesn't know how to do better (which is what I wanted to believe at first).

I believe the exact same thing: if I hadn't found out he would have just carried on his affair forever. I asked him what he was planning on doing and if he was ever going to tell me- he said he didn't know, he wasn't thinking about what he was doing. I know. He treated me exactly like a fool and it infuriates me. I am smarter than he is and I don't know who he thought he was f***ing with but he has grossly underestimated me. 

I have no idea what he believes happened to our love. We both had been feeling a little bit emotionally disconnected for a short time before the affair began, however the real emotional disconnect began with his affair. We had both been busier with school than normal and spending less time together however we continued to have a weekly date night and our sex life was unaffected. I believe that since he got out of the military a year ago, he just wants to live free like a teenager and hang out with his friends and play video games all night. I think that having a doting wife cooking every meal of the day and doing all the housework and being waxed and waiting after a long deployment isn't as useful outside of the military. There are lots of new girls to talk to at school (none in his mos) who don't come with a lifelong responsibility. This is probably TMI but I am fairly modest and it was a really big deal that I did this and it just makes me so mad. Anyway, when he was coming home on mid-tour leave once, I picked him up from the airport wearing nothing but a trench coat, stripper heels and some garters. Not to mention I spent 6 months starving myself and working out and looked like a million f***ing dollars to get ready for him because that's the kind of wife I am. I cried myself to sleep every night missing him while he was away and this is how he repays me for my loyalty. I'm sorry I'm getting off track, I'm just so devastated and I don't have anyone to talk to.

It is so disturbing to me, the volume of texts. I agree that if they couldn't go a moment without talking, how can they just sit down and study innocently working away. The only thing that helps me sleep at night is that the texts really picked up to that level after she left. I know that they wouldn't need to text as much if they were together in the same room- but he didn't spend enough time out to raise any red flags for me. Of course I wouldn't be surprised to find out he was skipping classes to spend time with her or otherwise lying about his whereabouts. It could be possible that their relationship got to this addictive level after she left because it would be easier to rationalize "just texting" than in-person interactions. But I don't really believe anything anymore.

It is so horrible to me that they have all of these secret conversations between them, it's like the betrayal that keeps on giving. I don't know how I can get over not knowing, even if we divorce I can't image how these questions wouldn't haunt me. I did ask him if he thought I was some kind of idiot to believe that he was just clearing out room on his phone. In the middle of a conversation. Not the beginning, not the end, just that pesky middle. I asked him what would he think if I had all these message fragments from some other guy and that guy told me to delete that last message. What would he believe? He admits that he wouldn't believe it either and that he would think the worst but he's not copping to anything more than texting no matter what I do. It's so frustrating.

She is lucky she had to go away too, I'm a good woman now but I'm from the ghetto and I still know how to solve problems the old fashioned way and I would love to show her. Turning PA when she learned she had to leave is on my mind too. It was when she was leaving that "the hug" happened. Did I mention that he told me (during the confrontation) that she asked him to bed? Was that a repressed memory? lol He told me that they were studying and it was getting late and he tried to leave and she kept trying to get him to stay. He says he's tired and has to go home and she invites him into her bed, he says that he declines and leaves. I should ask if this was the same night as the hug because I would be hard pressed to believe that they had an intimate goodbye hug after turning down sexual advances. That would be awkward if indeed he declined. 

They did meet in person in the first half of the relationship. They had class together and they were partners on the final project for that class (that class lasted 5 weeks I believe). So they occasionally worked on that class in person AT HER HOUSE. Most of the time (that I know about) they worked on their schoolwork on Skype. He was in the living room on his laptop and I was in the room sometimes. It seemed normal, they were on topic and she didn't have her camera on where he could see her but she could see him. During the month of July (most of that class) I had a ballet workshop most nights at our local professional ballet company so they had plenty of opportunity to be inappropriate while I was gone. I don't think that he could have went there because she lives a ways away and I would have noticed if he was constantly buying gas (not because I suspected him of cheating but because I'm cheap). I don't think she came here because our dog goes mad on visitors and she would have been riled up all night if she had met a new friend. I have also had a casual conversation with one of his other classmates from the same class while my husband was in the bathroom and the friend told me, after some jokes about how all the girls in class try to flock to his groups, that he doesn't flirt with them. So apparently he didn't see suspicious activity in the classroom.

She is not married and has no boyfriend. I wish she was married so I could blow up her life like mine. I'm guessing that she is shopping for a husband and based on where she's shopping, I believe she will be getting the kind she deserves someday. I have asked him everything I can think of about how/where they spent their time together/what they talked about but I have little reason to believe him. I definitely believe that if they didn't sleep together or do anything more than he tells me that they absolutely would have as soon as she got back. He was so out of control with this and was on a very slippery slope (if not already on the bottom of it). 

It so enrages me that he talked so much with her and wasn't willing to talk with me about whatever it was he was feeling that helped him rationalize his actions. I know I deserve better. I'm the best woman who would ever put up with him and I can't believe he would risk the best thing he'll ever have. It makes no sense and this girl is not worth it. Anyone would agree she's a step (or more) down. I don't want to live this way forever, it is a lot of work checking my traps and I am not willing to behave like his mother/parole officer for the rest of my life. 

I am so sad to be in this situation so young. It is so embarrassing. It makes me sad to think about the possibility of ending my marriage at 26- it seems so pathetic for me to get divorced this young. I don't want to get divorced and unfortunately I think he knows that. 

I will listen to my gut and keep looking for evidence while I figure out what I'm going to do; it's got me this far and I'm not giving it up. I am willing to divorce him but I really don't want to. I would have to quit school to work and I won't be able to pursue the only thing that brings me the only semblance of happiness in my life right now: ballet. Without it I would be completely dead inside.

I will have to think about whether I would have married him if I knew he was capable of this. So much of our relationship has been so good. I'm just not sure. I want to say that I would but this is so hard and I know that I'm not in my rational-thinking prime right now. 

He's on his way home now so I need to go put some make-up on and act like I'm doing something other than dwelling on him and what he's done. I will finish responding to all of your great comments as soon as I can. Thanks for all of the support.


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

harrybrown:
She is single. I asked him when he got home to write me a timeline out and told him to include every tiny detail he could possibly think of. What was said, where he was, what she was wearing, how it made him feel, etc. No detail too small. We agreed that he would take the weekend to write it up to insure he has enough time to think of everything (I would like to avoid a lot of "oh one more thing"s). He seemed glad to do it.

He insists that there were no naked or otherwise sexually explicit photos exchanged and I found nothing of that nature. However, that snapchat app they were using is as sleazy as it gets and I'm not convinced about this issue.

He is not texting me hardly at all. He replies quickly to anything that I send him but he almost never sends me anything first. It's so hurtful. Granted we live together and can have plenty of in-person conversations but he texted her good morning every day and I don't get them when I'm already off at work when he gets up.

Rowan:
I am planning to schedule a polygraph exam for him and making him take it no matter what. I need to do a little more research to find a place that I like. I am most motivated for the polygraph for the parking lot confession. I am looking forward to it (or in my dreams looking forward to him passing the test). I have to know the truth and the longer it takes me to uncover, the angrier I become. He is the type who would bluff like this and I know I have to call each and every one.

I am planning to give him a final opportunity to come clean, if he sticks to his story & fails the poly then I'll serve him with divorce papers.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Lilly, you are doing well. If you do find the magic wand, throw it away. The things worth having in life are the things worth working hard for. Things that are too easy get taken for granted sometimes...

Smack your husband upside his head and tell him, you need to treat me better than you ever treated her. Every little nice thing you did for her, you better do twice as good for me!


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

LilyoftheValley said:


> I know that I can't live the rest of my life in this marriage *without somehow becoming satisfied that I know what I need to know*,
> 
> I believe that since he got out of the military a year ago, he just wants to live free like a teenager.
> 
> ...


You might want to try a polygraph at some point in order to satisfy yourself you have the truth.

A good rule of thumb is that if a story does not make sense, it is a lie. Like using snapchat and deleting messages.

If you could read all of the messages between them, you would be surprised (I think, maybe you already know this) at how juvenile most of them are. It's always that way when there are an overwhelming number of them. I wouldn't dwell too much on the "secret" conversations, they were all just unrealistic fantasy.

He liked (and likes) "eating cake." Having two women interested in him. The reason he texts her so much is that he feels he has to in order to keep her interested. When it comes to you, he knows you aren't going anywhere, he takes you for granted. If you started seeing another guy, then he would change his tune and he would start pouring it on hot and heavy for you. I think somewhere inside you intuitively know this. He knows how much you don't want to get divorced, and he is using it to his advantage.


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

Thorburn:
I'm not completely convinced that is was a PA either and I hope that it wasn't but of course I want to be convinced that it wasn't. I'm trying to hope for the best and prepare for/behave as if it's the worst.

Pault:
I am definitely going to call any potential bluff and follow through with a polygraph test. I doubt he believes I'll really make him go through with it.

Your post gave me an idea. Once my husband's cell phone wasn't working right so I restored it to a point in the past before it started acting crazy. He still has the same phone so I will be figuring out how I did that and trying it again. Thanks for the idea, I just may pick a day that there was still evidence on the phone.

carmen ohio:
I have thought a lot about the question of whether or not I would have married him if I knew then what I know today. My answer is yes. Even though this is the most miserable thing I've ever been through, it wouldn't be worth missing out on the relationship that we've had for the last 8 years to avoid this pain. It seems crazy (even to me) but I would do it all again.

I have been trying to work toward the 180 (it's really hard for me!) and yesterday he spent pretty much the entire day crying. He told me last night that he felt like I didn't want to be around him and it "scares the s*** out of him". I'm assuming that's the response I'm looking for; a scared straight kind of thing. It tears me up to see him like that but I guess he deserves it, he brought it on himself.

The other approach you described is more appealing to me however I am extremely concerned about rug sweeping. It sounds like something we would do (unintentionally). So I have more thinking to do about this but for now I guess the 180 is probably less risky to my own sanity.

Thank you for mentioning that there is no deadline for me to make decisions. Sometimes I feel stressed out that I need to take more action: start working toward one resolution or another. I'm afraid of stringing this out for a couple of years in marriage counseling and resolving all of our issues and then deciding to divorce anyway- it seems like such a mind f***. I guess I'm probably not the one who needs to be worried about that though, am I?

I have definitely seen a lot of advice here and I am trying to collect as much wisdom as I can and my goal is to use it in a way that is right for me. It is nice to be reminded now, when I feel like I have so little control over my life, that what happens from here is ultimately my choice. 

Thank you for all of your kind words.

MovingAhead:
I like the sounds of that! I have certainly fantasized about smacking him upside the head numerous times.  I'm not sure how receptive I would be of him doing sweet things for me but I think I will make this exact demand anyway. He certainly needs to clean up his act.

Will_Kane:
I am going to go through with a polygraph test. I did some research on some places in our area and I plan on making some calls to them tomorrow while I am at work. Is it wise to give him the least amount of warning possible that I am really making him take a polygraph? My keylogger will tell me if he tries to do any research on how to beat the test but I still get the feeling that the element of surprise is something I want on my side. 

That is a good rule of thumb, I think I have been using it intuitively although I didn't realize it. Those are the issues that I suspect the most that he is deceiving me.

You know, I bet you are exactly right that most of the communications were completely moronic and juvenile. I found out the other day that she is 20 years old (I know, I know, I'm a kid too) and I laughed my a** off. I had seen some texts about some Disney movies too, I wonder if she offered to bake him anything in her Easy Bake Oven. Whenever I ask him questions about what they talked about, his responses are always really stupid normal stuff and I have been thinking 'how are you talking about this banal nonsense for 75 texts' but maybe they really did now that you mention that. 

He does take me for granted, you're right and he knows from experience that I put up with it. I've asked him several put-yourself-in-my-shoes questions about what would you do if you found out xyz (something he did) about me and some other guy and the ideas made him furious. I really hope he can learn these lessons the easy way.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

LilyoftheValley said:


> I am going to go through with a polygraph test. I did some research on some places in our area and I plan on making some calls to them tomorrow while I am at work. Is it wise to give him the least amount of warning possible that I am really making him take a polygraph? My keylogger will tell me if he tries to do any research on how to beat the test but I still get the feeling that the element of surprise is something I want on my side.
> 
> That is a good rule of thumb, I think I have been using it intuitively although I didn't realize it. Those are the issues that I suspect the most that he is deceiving me.
> 
> ...


Even many cheaters who are in their 40s and 50s revert to a teenage mentality, and their communications rarely are about real-life plans, like "I make $x amount of money, you make $x amount of money, apartment rent is $x per month, we can buy furniture for $x" etc.; rather, the cheater's messages are usually like "I love you soooo much," with reply of "no, I love you even more," "I want to be with you forever," "yes, I saw this big house on the lake, I would loooove to live with you in a place like that," "yeah, me too," "yeah, we could do it by the pool then go inside and do it on the bed," etc., you get the idea, and all the while neither of them has a pot to pee in, buying a big house on a lake with a pool is totally out of the question, yet they are completely caught up in it (at least for that one day, tomorrow brings another unrealistic texting string).

It is not that easy to beat the polygraph, it takes a really accomplished liar to truly "beat it." The polygraph measures baseline physical reactions to questions where the subject is telling the truth, such as name, age, date of birth, address, parent's names, etc., then ask questions to which they might lie, like did you ever have sex with so-and-so.

A truly accomplished liar might be able to so calmly tell a lie, or convince themselves that the lie they are telling actually is true, so that the physiological signs read the same as the response registered for the truth.

The way most try to beat it is to come up with a result that shows they are lying to questions that they in fact answered truthfully. The way this can be done is to cause the lying physiological response by some other means than a lie, like putting a small rock in their shoe and stepping down hard on it while answering the question. It usually leads to an "inconclusive" result, rather than a "passed" result.

A lot depends on the skill and experience of the person who gives the test, the way the questions are worded, the environment in which the test is administered. It is possible to get inconclusive results or even a result that the person is lying when in fact they were telling the truth, depending on the nervousness of the person or "triggers" that might result from the asking of the question itself, aside from whether they answer it truthfully.

There are a lot of other things to look at, for example, body language, facial expressions, etc. - there are some known "tells" that give away liars, and a person trained to look for them, in conjunction with the lie detector, can get a much better idea of truthfulness.

Of course, most people just think the lie detector is a machine, based on science, that can tell if they are lying, and so they confess before even taking the test, what we refer to as "parking lot" confessions, because so many times they actually have happened in the parking lot outside of the polygraph office.

I think giving your husband less notice and less time to research generally is better.


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

I gave my WH about 24 hours notice that he had an appointment to take a polygraph.
He seemed happy to do it- to clear his name.
The examiner I found is a police detective who runs a polygraph business on the side out of a county sherrif's office building (they let him do it on his own time because he purchased all the equipment himself). In my book, it doesn't get better than this guy.
He's in taking the test right now, I'm a mess. I have a half an hour to an hour left to wait.
No parking lot confessions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScorchedEarth (Mar 5, 2013)

What sort of phone does he have?


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

Polygraph Results

According to his polygraph exam, my husband had the lamest affair in history. No sex, no kissing, no naked picture messages.

Of course he still betrayed me, he lied about what he was doing/ where he was going, he secretly texted another woman all day and night, and he had romantic feelings for someone else. I probably caught him when he had barely gotten started but at least now I believe I know what I'm trying to deal with and I believe that he isn't still lying to me.

I'm so relieved right now I can't even explain.

ScorchedEarth
He has a Droid Incredible of some sort.


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

LilyoftheValley said:


> Polygraph Results
> 
> According to his polygraph exam, my husband had the lamest affair in history. No sex, no kissing, no naked picture messages.
> 
> ...


Same story with my husband. I found out that it was an EA and nothing physical, but you would have never believed it with the way the OW was ready to leave her husband for him and she believed she was completely in love with him. 

I am wondering if you are going to lead him to believe that you trust the poly? Or would you let him think you don't believe the poly?


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## Working1 (Sep 28, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> Even many cheaters who are in their 40s and 50s revert to a teenage mentality, and their communications rarely are about real-life plans, like "I make $x amount of money, you make $x amount of money, apartment rent is $x per month, we can buy furniture for $x" etc.; rather, the cheater's messages are usually like "I love you soooo much," with reply of "no, I love you even more," "I want to be with you forever," "yes, I saw this big house on the lake, I would loooove to live with you in a place like that," "yeah, me too," "yeah, we could do it by the pool then go inside and do it on the bed," etc., you get the idea, and all the while neither of them has a pot to pee in, buying a big house on a lake with a pool is totally out of the question, yet they are completely caught up in it (at least for that one day, tomorrow brings another unrealistic texting string).
> 
> It is not that easy to beat the polygraph, it takes a really accomplished liar to truly "beat it." The polygraph measures baseline physical reactions to questions where the subject is telling the truth, such as name, age, date of birth, address, parent's names, etc., then ask questions to which they might lie, like did you ever have sex with so-and-so.
> 
> ...


the rock in the shoe is making me laugh. does that really work?


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## LilyoftheValley (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm not sure if people generally update their posts with how things turn out or if anyone is interested, but I got to thinking lately about all of the great support and advice that I got here 3+ years ago and I realized that I left ya hanging. I was thinking about it because I got a friend suggestion on Facebook yesterday for OW and my response answered a question for me that I had been pondering for a while. I didn't even flinch. I just deleted our mutual friend. No, it wasn't WH lol. In the process of getting over the affair, I have gotten over H. I had been wondering lately if I still believe that I might fall in love with him again someday and when I saw OW on my Facebook, on my tablet, in my home, I wasn't mad. I didn't really care. I haven't been through his things in a long time and I have wondered if it is because I trust him or if it is because I simply don't care who he is talking to. I don't care. I have tried to imagine what it would be like if I caught him cheating again and I just don't think I would care. I think I would be mad at him for putting me on the spot to have to throw him out, not for a second A.

We have been working more on ourselves than on our marriage over the last 3 years. We are both in IC but not MC. We have a lot of things to figure out about ourselves and what we want from life, just as you would expect from a child bride and groom.

It isn't that I don't love him or don't care about him because I do, I really do. I want such a happy life for him and I truly love him with all my heart. It's just that I no longer have romantic feelings for him and I don't believe that he has romantic feelings for me anymore either. We are best friends and we get along perfectly but it isn't what people expect from a marriage. We never regained the intimate part of our marriage after the A, we don't do romantic relationship type stuff, we just hang out and have fun. A lot of fun. He is so funny and I love being around him but I just don't have the same feelings for him as I once did. To be perfectly honest, I think that he is in the closet. This part of the story probably belongs elsewhere, but I'm not really up for digging into this out in the open right now. I am just trying to be really open and supportive with him when the subject comes up in the hopes that he will be comfortable letting me know when/if the time comes. My plan is to do whatever I can to help him. 

Anyway, I just want to say that I can't express how much I appreciate everyone taking the time to help me. I took your advice extremely seriously. I don't want it to seem like I didn't because I haven't divorced him 3 years later, but there was a lot of sh** under the rug and we have just been shaking it out at our own pace. Neither one of us have been ready emotionally to be in a romantic relationship at any point since the A anyway, so I haven't seen the harm in staying "together" while we get it all sorted out. I am probably in the wrong though at this point because I haven't told him that I am not in love with him anymore. I was waiting until I got my feelings sorted out before I said something so hurtful and so permanent to him; the thought of hurting him just breaks my little heart. I don't know for sure that he feels the same. I could be wrong and totally blindside the poor guy. 

Is this all really pathetic? Don't answer that.


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## Hazelnut (Jan 29, 2017)

I'm so glad for the update! I found out my husband and my best friend had an EA but were caught kissing by her husband when attempting to upgrade to PA. It's only been 5 months but I feel EXACTLY like you've described above, without the closet bit!. (We're in our late 40s/early 50s). I don't know whether we'll stay together....quite a betrayal after 19 years...but thank you for telling your tale and I hope you find happiness whatever you do.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

It's not completely unlikely that an EA might not go PA. After my STBX got fired from his professorship for selling grades for sexual favors, I was an emotional basket case. I ended up in an EA with a coworker whose wife was having an affair with her boss. He was an emotional wreck as well. We talked, had lunch together, cried on each other's shoulders for the better part of 6 months. Never once touched each other sexually. And as a matter of fact at the time I would never have thought of my behavior as an affair. He was never anything more to me than a good friend to commiserate with. Strangely enough that was way back in 1997 and we are both still married to the same people we were married to then. Him happily reconciled with his WW, me on the brink of divorce as my H turned out to be a serial cheater.

It really doesn't sound like your husband had a PA. You need to decide if "just" an EA is a deal breaker for you. If you do decide to R, I would keep him on a short lease at least for as long as he remains in school.


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## ChipperE (Nov 16, 2016)

My first husband was a serial adulterer.we married when I was 18 and pregnant with his child and he was 25. He was a cop and so he had 10 affairs that I know of (there's probably dozens more). 

A funny thing happened when I turned 25. I started lifting weights like crazy, leaving the house as soon as he got home and could watch the kids (we had 3), as a way to avoid him. I was never in love with him but after the years of affairs I began to really buy into my own identity. You know what? The affairs stopped hurting. I loved my life and being my own person. Eventually, 4 years into that I realized I wanted a loving marrige and divorced him. 

I suspect the same will happen to you. Indifference towards someone who hurts you is a powerful thing. Keep doing what you are doing!!!


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## TXDude (Jun 3, 2016)

Just read your thread, poly's are not reliable. I lied my ass off during a poly and passed with flying colors. It was a requirement for a job that required handling LARGE sums of money alone so poly before hiring was one of the many requirements. I lied on most of the questions, "have your ever stolen anything" "used drugs" "smoked marijuana" on and on and on and I lied and passed!!!!

I would bet the family farm there were sexual pictures exchanged and physical sexual contact. 


Anyway, I read your update and it sounds like you are in a passionless if not loveless marriage. Do you want to have romantic feelings? Do you have sex with your husband or has there been no sex since the discovery of his affair? From your description of how things are, it doesn't seem like a marriage most people would want.


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## Blacksmith01 (Aug 12, 2013)

My advice is to get rid of him. Get your stuff in order and file. There are men out there that know what boundaries are. He is not one of them. He has lied and stole time that should have been yours and gave it to someone else.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

You mentioned that there were no kids yet in your beginning post? Is that still true? If so, you might want to think about parting on amicable terms before one or both of you decide to seek out a romantic relationship elsewhere. You also mentioned that he might be in the closet, if so, then that would definitely be another incentive to end the relationship now so that you both can find a more meaningful relationship where you are both romantically and sexually fulfilled. You can still be friends afterwards since you're both such great friends now.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Working1 said:


> the rock in the shoe is making me laugh. does that really work?


Liars have rocks in their head. The rocks in their shoe would likely amount to be a placebo effect, since their brain would have an "affinity" with the stone cold liar SOB that they already are. 

If the rock user employs said shoe pebble, then the lying Prince will not feel the lying pea pea under the mattress of shame. He will not react to any probing questions. Hence, he will pass the electrode test.

He will not pass his wife's gut felt "eyes and ears" Inquisition. At least, not for long.
.............................................................................................................................................................................

@LilyoftheValley, your' ingrate husband passed the lie detector test with flying colors. Dark colors.

Listen to your gut. Before you eat pizza and drink beer, though!

I do not think he did the PA. But he was heading that way. The OW wanted his azz. He was enjoying the attention and the ego trip.

I think you now have him by the short hairs connected to his Knapp Sack.

As a good loving wife, you always had that grasp on him. Give him a jerk. Remind him what happens when he goes astray. 

And remind what happens when you remove your hand.....for good. If he loves you, he will not want to lose your loving heart, mind and those caressing hands.

I wish the best for you.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dear LilyoftheValley;

You have certainly gone through a lot of grief and pain.

From my perspective, you need to decide what you want in your future. In many respects your marriage is over. What I mean by that is that what you had prior to the EA or PA or whatever has been significantly damaged.

There is an interesting TED talk I saw where the speaker, who is a sex therapist, tells a couple that has had an affair that their marriage is over and that they can start a new marriage with the same partner or with a different partner. They just have to choose and figure out what they want. I feel that you are in that boat and should look at it like that.

A good marriage requires commitment and constant work. If you can forgive him and if he is remorseful, then the two of you can try to build a new relationship. It will not be the same, but if you are both committed to it you can build something that each of you values. But it will take lots of work on the part of the two of you. Rebuilding the marriage or a "new marriage" is requires a full commitment and effort by both of you.

You can either look to the future or dwell on the past. Your happiness lies in the future with you H or with someone else.

Good luck


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