# Revisit



## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

Firstly apologies, some of this may be repeated as I had to delete my previous thread as my wife was close to seeing it.

I'll try and be as concise as poss but give all the details.

First about me. I've recently been made redundant from job I'd had for 12 years. It hit hard and I've taken a lower pay job to make sure we can afford the rent, bills, food etc...

My wife was in a good job and left to move to a new role on more £.

Now being completely honest I've been struggling with self esteem issue and such since the redundancy. Nothing major but certainly lost confidence and feeling pretty worthless. All this follows on from a family argument which has been fairly nasty going on over the last year with some (unfairly) aimed at my wife.

Anyway, we have children and why wife had a tough time with baby blues and her friendships have dwindled. She still has friends but doesn't really see them often (certainly not for girls nights) and is feeling isolated. I've tried to get her to take up hobbies, attend classes, etc... and she has tried but eventually it all seems to die away and were left with her feeling down.

So she moved to her new job and she perks up as it's a challenge (something her old place wasn't offering her) and she's enjoying it. She also gets on really well with a guy there who she has to work with as he does stuff that ties into her work. Over the first few months it's just normal, then I hear loads about him everyday as he's the only one she really talks to. So much so that after a few months he is told that he needs to stop the talking (she never is) or he will have to move. To make sure they can still have a laugh (which I fully appreciate and am fine with) they decide to use Google Hangouts via gmail but also the app on the phones.

After about a week of this it feels like its now crept into every evening as well. My wife tells me that they're just work friends who 'get each other' and have the same sense of humour but thats it.

Over time (and a few arguments) I told her it felt like she was almost reliant of these messages and him. I got told I was being stupid but I can't shake the feeling.

She's said things like 'he make me feel like the old me' and that kind of stuff. If I bring it up though she tells me that 'she didn't mean it like that' and I'm twisting it.

We've argued plenty and I'm trying to understand. She say's he's just a friend and had now admitted he's probably one of, if not her actual, closest friends. I mentioned about it being a possible EA and she argued it until she went online to look what it was and conceded why it looks like that but if it was it was just a low level one. He can tell when she's upset and asks if she's ok and stuff. Her female friends don't see that anymore.

Now, I love that she (was) enjoying work and making friends but I can't help feel that there are more feelings to this than she's ever going to tell me.

He has a really jealous wife who won't allow him to speak to girls (especially my wife) at the work party. I'm sure she doesn't know how much they chat.

Can my wife (or anyones wife) be close to another guy with it just being friends? To me it sounds like the beginning of a deep EA (and we all know what that can lead on to).

I don't want my wife to go back to being upset and depressed but I don't want the only way for her not to being another guy she's getting close to.

She refuses to stop contact as she doesn't want to make work awkward and enjoys a laugh. She also says that it's me causing my own feelings due to being depressed and low because of redundancy. If she stops being friends and then I get over it she doesn't want to resent me.

It's an awful mess leading to numerous arguments and it's hurting us both.

Am I in the wrong with my feelings? Any advice please.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Not one on one, and after work hours, absolutely not.

I never socialize with workmates after hours anyways, but would not especially with opposite sex workmates.

Not drinks, phone or messaging, and I have great work friendships peers of the opposite sex but I keep boundaries in focus.

Her judgement is clouded and her projected transparency a mirage, but there is clarity in this... it will not stay friends if it continues.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I think you should give his wife a call and inform her of the frequency of their conversation. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Your wife's happiness isn't your job to set right. If she's truly depressed, she should go to therapy. 

This guy is unavailable. She should read "Not Just Friends" by the late Dr. Shirley Glass. She is thigh deep in an EA.

Dont believe anything she says. Watch what she does. Insist she show you all conversations if they're so innocent. Her reaction will tell you all you need to know.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Additional thought...

She needs to enjoy work, and she needs to enjoy family...this is healthy. 

Taking the time away from family when work is no longer required for the day is not.

Remove the pride of thinking lower pay means you find yourself less worthy, put your best effort and talent forth and you will find again a value of self. Show her the loving path of family bond since you have children, but I already worry for her selfishness as your described reliance on this other communication. 

That resentment is a word already used for your concern, almost as a threat, tells you the challenge that lies ahead. I hear you say that boundaries are being fought against, as it is often said here, you cannot control her but you can control what you accept.


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

I must have thought everything written here but I want more than anything to believe that it's just a friendship.

I fear it's too late and it's gone too far (not physical but emotional).

The challenge now is to speak to her about it without a massive argument and find out how to move forward, either as 1 or separately.


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## Duiker (Jun 26, 2015)

If it bothers you to this degree, that should be more than enough for her to put a stop to it.

Let's break it down:

She wants this relationship (whatever it is at this point) because it makes HER feel good.

She knows that it doesn't just bother you, but this other man's wife as well (labeling her as jealous is just minimization ).

Yet she insists on continuing. 

This is a character issue that is going to lead to bad place.

Sadly, there is nothing you can do to curtail this situation. More often than not, disturbed characters will refuse to change their ways until their actions have caused significant loss to themselves. Even then they may change certain behavior patterns without ever truly addressing the core character deficiency. 

Look up some of Dr. George Simon's work. He explains it very well.

Take it from those of us that have ridden this roller coaster. Put your foot down now. Explain to her (calmly and rationally) what boundaries are and that she has crossed them. 

If something bothers you this much and she refuses to put a stop to it, it speaks volumes about her sense of entitlement and total lack of empathy and respecially for you. Healthy marriages don't work like that.


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

Duiker said:


> If it bothers you to this degree, that should be more than enough for her to put a stop to it.
> 
> Let's break it down:
> 
> ...


This reply probably breaks it down the best way.

She is putting herself ahead of me and our marriage. I can cope with it ahead of me normally but I am going through a bad time and there is just no support there. Apparently the 'old me' would have been fine with it, well the new me (which I don't see as different) isn't.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

MancMan said:


> I must have thought everything written here but I want more than anything to believe that it's just a friendship.
> 
> I fear it's too late and it's gone too far (not physical but emotional).
> 
> The challenge now is to speak to her about it without a massive argument and find out how to move forward, either as 1 or separately.


Sorry, MancMan, but newsflash: the argument is not avoidable. You can't nice your way to get her to understand and agree with you or any of us. The most effective way to squash an EA (or any kind of affair), if it has the potential to be squashed, is to shock the other party into reality. The way you shock a person into reality is to take actions yourself that signal that you will NOT TOLERATE this kind of behavior.

Literally no man here that I can remember since my joining was successful in trying to talk and negotiate his wife back into the relationship.

IF she has nothing to hide, she shows you all communication immediately.

IF she says no, you say "OK", shrug your shoulders, then go file D papers.

IF she's so unhappy, you will be more than accommodating to her wanting a divorced life so she can go find her happiness. You won't stand in her way, in fact, here's the door, tell her you'll hold it open for her.

Also, go tell the OM's wife immediately. Best if you tell her in person and without either your wife's or the OM's knowledge. Another part of the shock factor is bringing the truth to someone else who can help crush that fantasy world and stop it in its tracks. If the OM has any fear of divorce from his own wife, watch as the he jettisons your wife out of his life.

ETA: You may or may not be there to catch her. That's up to you. Choose wisely.


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

Satya said:


> IF she has nothing to hide, she shows you all communication immediately.
> 
> IF she says no, you say "OK", shrug your shoulders, then go file D papers.
> 
> ...


That's the thing and a reason I do trust her. She does tell me about everything and knows I have passwords to all her accounts so can see the chat. She does ask that I look with her but I can look anytime if I chose to.

And she tells me she can't live without me or us as we've been together for so long and she loves me so much. She can't even begin to imagine life that way.

It just seems that there is this one thing she is so pigheaded about and it's him and messaging him. She says nothing has or will ever happen and I should trust her to know and deal with it if he did ever make a move.


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

This confrontation needs to happen.

I would start by informing OM's wife.

Do nothing and this will most likely end badly.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I remember your previous post because of the term your wife used, a "low level" EA?? Her being accepting of an EA and trying to diminish it to placate you I find very troubling. Her care and concern for you and the marriage seems to be all but gone. If she is going to resent you for asking her to stop an EA then what does that say about her feelings for you.

I would do as was suggested prior and inform the OM's wife. She has a right to know and she may help in breaking the bond between her H and your W. I would find this situation completely intolerable.


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

If I were you I'd go the brutal honesty route. Tell her that you don't mind if she has friends and that you are not jealous at all, but that she needs to make sure that you are the one she confides in and that you are the main man in her life. Period. Second, and this is very important. Let her know that in no uncertain terms that if you ever find out that she has cheated on you with him then the marriage will unequivocally be over and you will move on and find somebody else. I'm 90% sure that this will cause her to think more about what she's doing and because she realizes what's a stake she might even start to pull back from the guy. You just need to make sure that you put on your Alpha male hat and coldly tell her this.


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## Duiker (Jun 26, 2015)

There is no room in a marriage for the kind of selfishness she is displaying by insisting on continuing this level of familiarity with another man.

Maybe she's right. Maybe he will never make a move and if he did she would shut it down. That's entirely beside the point.

It bothers YOU, her husband, the person she vowed to love, cherish, honor and forsake all others for. That's what matters.

This isn't some petty disagreement all marriages have (like who controls the remote or what temperature you set the thermostat for).

This is a situation that is causing you enough emotional duress and insecurity that you are seeking advice on Internet forum.

Don't be disarmed by the standard playbook tactics disturbed characters will use to turn your objections back on you. She may call you insecure, take exception to your implied lack of trust, claim that you are controlling, etc. They will poke holes in all of your arguments and try to make you believe that something is wrong with YOU. It's called gaslighting, and it's a manipulation tactic -abuse really.

If she loves you and values you as much as she claims, then she will give up a friendship that causes such a strain on your marriage, even if she doesn't agree with your feelings.

Your feelings are real, and they MATTER.


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## Tobyboy (Jun 13, 2013)

Do you have any female friends that enjoy the same hobbies you do?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

People gave you lots of advice before. I advised doing as she does, and every time she talks to him you leave. And letting her know where your boundaries are.

But your unwillingness to do these things, or what others are recommending is what is causing this problem. You're not going to be able to keep looking for advice that does not cause conflict.

You can either get comfortable at being the #2 man in your wife's life, or get comfortable with constructive conflict.

It's your choice.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

MancMan said:


> And she tells me she can't live without me or us as we've been together for so long and she loves me so much. She can't even begin to imagine life that way.
> 
> It just seems that there is this one thing she is so pigheaded about and it's him and messaging him. She says nothing has or will ever happen and I should trust her to know and deal with it if he did ever make a move.


Ok, so you're in that spot between the rock and a hard place. Or, there is no easy answer or easy path for you. This you have to accept before you can make progress. And, your wife has set the stage such that there may be no happy outcome for you. Her actions and emotions are beyond your control.

A few points:

1) No heterosexual man maintains a non-sexual interest in an attractive woman. Presumably your wife is at least of average physical attractiveness. It would be a safe bet that this OM desires to have sex with your wife. He may be a player, he may be a normal man in a somewhat bad marriage, or he could be in an ok marriage. Each category is prone to affairs! Obviously the player is a higher threat, but the point is this guy wants to have sex with your wife. Your wife may deny it, and some women do seem to be ignorant that men are this way. This man's emotional attachment and time investment in your wife means he wants to have sex with her, unless she is physically repulsive to him.

2) Your wife is in The Fog, so whatever she says is not believable. Her actions are also suspect. She probably scrubs her messages asap, or uses an alternate channel, or uses code with this OM.

3) She may believe she loves you and can't imagine any other life, but she isn't telling the whole story. She imagines her great life with you _and_ the fun of having this friendship with OM. She may be lying to herself about it to some extent, too.

4) You don't have to convince her she is too deep with this guy. All you have to prove is she has crossed a line which _for you_ is unacceptable. She can choose to come back or she can choose to ignore your boundary. You have to have believable consequences in order for her to see a reason to come back.

5) She'll probably be angry and unpleasant for a while, maybe months, when you set this boundary. That's part of the process you'll have to go through.

6) She may be too far gone already. She's made a mess of things. I think you should _insist_ on marriage counseling with someone who specializes in infidelity. Make this part of the boundary. You could set this as a 2 step boundary, first being attending MC with you (and participating!), second being ending contact with OM.

7) It speaks volumes that she cares less about how her "friendship" bothers you than keeping this friendship. Even if you are blowing things out of proportion and it is nothing more than a casual friendship, she should be happy to cool it down to only business as required for her job. This is the real warning flag here for you, she is prioritizing time and emotional energy into this guy rather than her marriage and family.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

If OM is hiding his talking to your W from his spouse, then IMO there is a real red flag about what he is aiming for in this 'friendship'.

Spouses do not hide OS communications from their partners if their intentions are above board....they have no reason to.

Sounds to me like he is trying to bait your W, slowly but surely sucking her into an A....if unchecked, there is a possibility, once she is addicted to the ego kibbles and emotional stroking, that he will be able to get her into a PA in order to keep getting her emotional fix.

This is simply how so many of these predator sh*tbags operate....you read about it on thread after thread.

Inform OM's BW immediately about the extent of their communication....give this turd something else to worry about than trying to seduce your W.

Your W is still viewing this as simply a friendship.....that's my take since she ISN'T hiding their communication from you or being sneaky/deceptive by deleting things.

But its also obvious that he has already got the emotional hook into her.

If you don't break this scumbag's plans/agenda up soon, this will probably spiral into a much more serious problem.

When she DOES start to lock down or hide communications and starts deleting the content of their talks, it will really be too late to stop a disaster from happening.

Do it ASAP.....tell his BW.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Please do your research. It's not an invasion of her privacy. You have a right to ensure that nothing untoward is going on. Look at her phone, email, laptop, tablet, and social media. 

Even if it's an innocent friendship (I doubt it) it needs to be severely limited. Sometimes you have to use some dread. Start going out with friends. Get busy with hobbies, working out. In other words don't wait around on her. Work on yourself across the board. (gym, clothes, hair, hygiene, ETC) 

Your wife may not have voiced her disappointment with the turn your career has taken but her actions tell me she's losing respect for you. Remember always pay attention to their actions not their words. 

With you working a low wage job, maybe it's time to go back to school to better yourself. The last thing you want is to stagnate, while your wife moves forward. 

I'm sure if your wife lost her job and had to take a low paying job, it wouldn't change your feelings for her. The same doesn't happen with women. Now that her station in life is moving up, she'll expect the man in her life to be ahead of her not below.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

She can have friends at work, but leave them at work. Your wife has created this problem, because she feels she has to be at his beckon call after duty hours. She has gone on to say (nonverbal) that your feelings on this matter are not justified. I wonder if this is a result of her having a higher paid position and feeling dominate in the relationship. I do know that if the she was on the other foot, she would be having a fit. Her position is very disturbing.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Sorry you are here my friend.

Your wife is having EA and you are second man in her life right now. She told you how this man makes her feel and how much she enjoy talking with him. 
She also told you he can understand her a lot better then her female friends. This is what Cheaters do. She thinks this is normal behaviour for a married woman and she is doing a hard time making you belive the same. So wrong.

It is up to you from now on. If you want to save your Marriage tell her she needs to stop Contacting this man and you have to stand behind those words. 

If she feels unhappy then findng another man is not going to help her. 

Contact other wife and talk with her. 

Can you imagine what they talk about when they see each other alone,behind those texts,mails and stuff like that!!!

Stay strong my friend.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Let me add that your wife may be mentioning this to you, because she is mad about the money situation and at some level enjoys busting your chops over this. (obviously someone with a full-blown affair works on hiding not publicizing it). Next time she mentions it, I'd probably bring a Sports Illustrated swimsuit edition and mention to her how cute some woman is, and each time talk about her assets.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Mancman where in the world -roughly- are you?

Some advice I can give is country specific. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MancMan said:


> The challenge now is to speak to her about it without a massive argument


And this right here is your problem. What's wrong with an argument? Are you afraid of making her mad? Afraid she'll read you saying you think she's cheating? Afraid she'll pack up and leave if you dare confront her? If so, you have bigger issues than her friendship.

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet?


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

@MattMatt Im in the UK
@turnera there's nothing wrong with an argument at all and I;m not afraid of any of those things but I personally believe that things can be sorted easier without too much confrontation. It doesn't help anything so why not try and do it like adults?


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

MancMan said:


> @MattMatt Im in the UK
> 
> @turnera there's nothing wrong with an argument at all and I;m not afraid of any of those things but I personally believe that things can be sorted easier without too much confrontation. It doesn't help anything so why not try and do it like adults?


Adults fight when necessary. Pussies try to handle the hard stuff without too much confrontation, and fail.


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

Nucking Futs said:


> Adults fight when necessary. Pussies try to handle the hard stuff without too much confrontation, and fail.


As I've said, I'll have (and have had) the arguments when needed. I'll do what is required and believe me I can scream and shout with the best of them.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

@MancMan, You've been here a bit, Have you familiarized yourself with some of the resources that explain a lot of the advice you've received? If not I suggest you do. 

Confrontation does not have to include anger, only resolve to keep healthy boundaries. My boundary is simple. I consent that my wife can have any man she wants to give her mutual and emotional support. When that happens to be someone other than me, she will no longer be my wife. 

Dr. Shirley Glass - NOT "Just Friends"

Boundaries in Marriage, Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend 

No More MR Nice Guy, Dr. Robert Glover

A marriage is a mutual agreement. When the agreement is no longer mutual, it's no longer a marriage. 


Best


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MancMan said:


> As I've said, I'll have (and have had) the arguments when needed. I'll do what is required and believe me I can scream and shout with the best of them.


Screaming and shouting doth not an argument make.

Your argument should go something like this...

Wife, I'm no longer OK with your relationship with the other man, and if it continues, I will no longer be able to continue in my relationship with you.

Let her do the screaming and shouting and twisting and what not. All you have to do is not budge an inch from your position...then end the relationship with her if she chooses her relationship with the other man over her relationship with you. You can't save your relationship with your wife until you are willing to end it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

MancMan said:


> As I've said, I'll have (and have had) the arguments when needed. I'll do what is required and believe me I can scream and shout with the best of them.


Arguments don't automatically involve screaming and shouting.

In fact, if you refrain from it, you are in charge of the discussion.


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

I agree with the others on the argument issue. You don't need to scream and shout. But the fact remains this needs to happen and soon. Just calmly sit her down and tell her the relationship with this man is doing serious injury to the marriage. Remind her that even by her own assessment of the relationship with OM, she admitted is was a "low level EA". Tell her their is no such thing as low level affairs, there are only AFFAIRS. And she is having one right in your face and that isn't going to work. So the choice is hers. She can have the EA if she wants, but she can't have you. Or she ends the EA, and begin working on the marriage. She can have it either way she wants, but she isn't going to have both.

If she tells you she isn't breaking off with him, then read up on the 180 program and begin to emotionally detach from her. Start concentrating on yourself and your kids. Start working out, eat better, get in shape, start going out with friends, take the kids places and leave her out. Begin separating finances and moving toward divorce. And very discretely, pay the OM Wife a visit and clue her in on what's going on with the love birds.

If she promises to break it off with OM, then she will have to start therapy to strengthen her boundaries so she doesn't cheat again. You both will need MC to work on communicating better with each other. If other man still works with her, she will need to start applying for other jobs. Because them being near one another every day will not work.

When you confront her, stay very calm and focused. No matter if she rants and raves, just sit there and watch her calmly till she tires out, then reiterate once again what her choices are. No negotiations, no bargaining, no deals. It's black and white, choose one. Then give her a deadline to decide, maybe 24 hours. But remember, once you lay this out, you have to carry it out. If you offer consequences, then don't deliver them when needed, she will not take you seriously and you will be in bigger trouble. You need to be willing to lose the marriage to save it.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Palodyne said:


> I agree with the others on the argument issue. You don't need to scream and shout. But the fact remains this needs to happen and soon. Just calmly sit her down and tell her the relationship with this man is doing serious injury to the marriage. Remind her that even by her own assessment of the relationship with OM, she admitted is was a "low level EA". Tell her their is no such thing as low level affairs, there are only AFFAIRS. And she is having one right in your face and that isn't going to work. So the choice is hers. She can have the EA if she wants, but she can't have you. Or she ends the EA, and begin working on the marriage. She can have it either way she wants, but she isn't going to have both.
> 
> If she tells you she isn't breaking off with him, then read up on the 180 program and begin to emotionally detach from her. Start concentrating on yourself and your kids. Start working out, eat better, get in shape, start going out with friends, take the kids places and leave her out. Begin separating finances and moving toward divorce. And very discretely, pay the OM Wife a visit and clue her in on what's going on with the love birds.
> 
> ...


My first thought to this is too many words, too much talking and explaining and too many openings for her to gaslight. She's presumably a grown up and knows all this already. I really think it should be kept as simple as possible...

I am not OK with this, and can not continue in a relationship with you if this continues.

Only after she agrees to end it unconditionally do you talk about what that looks like moving forward.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

You could probably have this situation resolved within days or hours if you'd actually act.

Are you willing to do it, even if it's difficult and scary?

Or are you just going to keep on looking for advice that hopefully seems safe and easy?

I'm sorry to be hard on you man, but she's going to move forward with this one way or the other unless you do something. If she hasn't already.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

CONTACT OM's WIFE!!

She will be your best ally.

Stop engaging your wife about it - she will never listen to you, agree with you, nor stop the behavior. She is bound to OM emotionally now and that is a huge danger to your marriage. She loves the attention she gets from him. She values and respects him more than she does you or your marriage. As she gets in deeper it will eventually lead to her "loving OM". She will tell you she did not mean for it to happen, but it just did. At that point you and the marriage are toast.

Act now.

Have you read any of their texting? Have you checked to see if anything is being deleted?


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

samyeagar said:


> My first thought to this is too many words, too much talking and explaining and too many openings for her to gaslight. She's presumably a grown up and knows all this already. I really think it should be kept as simple as possible...
> 
> I am not OK with this, and can not continue in a relationship with you if this continues.
> 
> Only after she agrees to end it unconditionally do you talk about what that looks like moving forward.


 Yes, it is a bit wordy. But I have never been a man of few words. LOL. Anyway, spoken in the first person it would go like this.

" This relationship you have with OM is damaging our marriage. You even admitted it was a low level Emotional Affair. There is no such thing, there are only affairs and you are having one right in my face and I'm not going to stand for it. You can continue on with OM if you want, but not with me as a husband. Or you can stop this affair now, and try to repair the damage you've done to our marriage. You can choose either one you want, but you can't have both. I'll give you 24 hours to decide."

That would be the final word. Then he should just sit back and watch the show she puts on calmly and confidently. Till she gives her answer.


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

I have a rule no friends of the opposite sex period.

Also its consequences that have the most affect on people not screaming and shouting. At the moment you are not offering up any consequences for her foul behavour.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@MancMan you need to see a solicitor to find out your legal position to see how you can protect yourself if you need to have a divorce.

Get a free half hour session with all the best local solicitors as this would in theory limit her to having to seek legal representation from someone out of the area.

Isn't that fighting dirty? Yes. It is. But you are at war.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Thor said:


> 1) No heterosexual man maintains a non-sexual interest in an attractive woman.


What? Where did you get this? Not true at all. I'm very heterosexual and got a few attractive female friends. No interest sexually in any of them and very happily spoken for.

So far it's an EA, OP has to deal with the fact that at the moments his wishes are not being respected.

He probably feels a bit emasculated because of the job loss and now this. The power dynamic in the relationship shifts because she's making more money and it gets to this point where (and he said it) the new him can't argue fudge, where as the old him probably would have been more proactive and stamping this out...and her in listening and curtailing this nonsense.

It's funny how this behavior only started once he lost his job. She probably got on well with him because as soon as she started working there he probably zeroed in her and started working on her. You know when you start at a new place and make a connection with that one person, you talk to them all the time, take lunch together etc.

Problem is if their talking so much at work that they need to be moved or fired?!? WTF? Did you ask her employer why they needed to take such action? Surely that should have raised red flags I mean if they're talking so much that management actually notices and it's affecting their work then it's a huge problem.

Second, she's bringing this home. I bet you when OM gets a safe minute away from his wife he messages her because he knows he'd get hell from his wife (another red flag, why is the wife so jealous, or maybe he's had affairs before) yet your wife does it over your head and in your presence.

Once you start getting the "Only he gets me, we understand each other" I'm sorry that's not friendship that's a precursor to something deeper. 

So my friend, one question, why is it she didn't negotiate with the management at work to continue talking to this chap? Surely she could have used the same excuses she used with you? No? 

Yet at work it was cut dead..but with you..no it continues.

Next she'll be asking you to allow her hang out with him or go to dinner, but it's ok because she's told you and they're just friends.

If some dude was all up on my wife, I'd had a word with him because the OM is doing this and he's NOT afraid/concerned about you.

Her disrespect + man assuming alpha male status over partner = bad news for you my friend


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

Thanks all.

Yeah I'm probably worried about my actions causing irreversible damage due to being told a lot that it's all in my head to to my current feelings r.e. work and stuff.

I need to man up and take the bull by the horns. 

Wish me luck!


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## ButtPunch (Sep 17, 2014)

MancMan said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> I need to man up and take the bull by the horns.
> 
> Wish me luck!


Good Luck!

It really is your only option.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

@MancMan,

It's more important for your W to have this relationship with this man rather than make you feel safe in the marriage. Feeling safe in a marriage is a basic requisite for a marriage to last. 

Take a quick look at the method she's using to make her argument to through you off. It's called DARVO - Deny, Attack, Reverse the Victim and Offender

She is addicted to the emotional rush she's getting from this man. It's just like an addict who won't give up the drug. Anatomy of an Affair - The Chemistry of Love

Did you browse Dr. Glass's Not Just Freinds? 

Best


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MancMan said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> Yeah I'm probably worried about my actions causing irreversible damage due to being told a lot that it's all in my head to to my current feelings r.e. work and stuff.
> 
> ...


What exactly are you planning on doing?


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

Have you and your wife had a conversation about what is ok and not when it comes to friendships, and essentially with people of the opposite gender? 

A few ground rules that we find very important and would have prevented a lot of pain had we talked about them sooner in our marriage:

1. Never talk bad about your spouse to anyone other than your spouse, or possibly a therapist or doctor, someone professional sworn to secrecy.

2. Include your spouse in any friendship with someone from the opposite sex.

I think you could insist on having her friend and his wife over for dinner. If this is something they would be uncomfortable with then it should be such a red flag that maybe they'd even see it themselves...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@MancMan book a session with your local Relate counsellor for the two of you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jdawg2015 (Feb 12, 2015)

Yup both the W and OM are deep into this.

Take a large bell and ring it next to their heads.

OP man up. No more texting other men and definitely not OSF. Minimum boundaries.

What line of work are you in and where "over paid for your education"in your previous job or are you under employed ? Be honest and makes a difference in what advice to give you about it.



TDSC60 said:


> CONTACT OM's WIFE!!
> 
> She will be your best ally.
> 
> ...


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

So we had the 'discussion'. It involved lots of tears, screaming, shouting and actually afterwards seems to have cleared the air.

We have boundaries in place which include things being removed off phones and times it's appropriate to contact people. Not through asking but we have complete access to each others accounts and it all seems to be much better so thanks all.

One thing that does still irks me...I've seen it on a few posts that people have said 'don't confront too early'. I can't help but feel I have. I've accused, put my foot down and done other things but having had things explained, read messages and looked at timings and such I honestly believe that I may have gone to early. I don't think I was wrong in anyway but fear that by confronting when I did I may have postponed what was happening and push it deeper underground. Just going to have to keep my eyes open for anything strange and follow it up quietly.


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## MyRevelation (Apr 12, 2016)

One thing I've learned to trust in along this journey is "listen to your gut". If your gut is telling you that this relationship is inappropriate, then IT IS inappropriate. You're the one that gets to decide what is inappropriate behavior from your W.

I also don't have a problem with you confronting now. You have put your W on notice that you are uncomfortable with her relationship and you can learn a lot about exactly where you stand in her eyes by watching what she does next. If she significantly scales back contact, then your message was received. However, if contact continues at the same level or your gut screams that they are being secretive, then you know you have a real problem on your hands. Don't ever question yourself about being too proactive.

Personally, I'd use last nights conversation to lead into a follow up conversation where you actually state your concerns and ask for full NC. I would then contact OMW and share your concerns with her. YES ... it will temporarily escalate the situation, but it will likely KILL IT too.

You have now carved out a point of strength to make your stand. Now is not the time to get lax and cede that position of strength, but to build on it.


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## BBF (May 21, 2015)

Good for you OP. You have changed the dynamic. I'd make a few notes...actually write them down as her memory may (strike that) WILL change over time. And, don't venture down a slippery slope of her stepping over the boundaries. One inch over, is over. I agree with the others, contact the other man's wife and fill her in. She deserves to know that her old man is hunting/grooming at least one other woman--your wife!


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## niceguy28 (May 6, 2016)

MancMan said:


> Firstly apologies, some of this may be repeated as I had to delete my previous thread as my wife was close to seeing it.
> 
> I'll try and be as concise as poss but give all the details.
> 
> ...


No you are not wrong. Seems like you have a family and your wife has a good job so splitting up might not be that smart. If I were you I would tell her that if she wants to feel like the old her then she should leave you the hell alone and get all of her emotional needs met by this guy at work. Screw her and keep everything about business. Go out if you want to, hang out with your buddies, and by all means get yourself some female friends. Stop giving her all of the power.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

MancMan said:


> So we had the 'discussion'. It involved lots of tears, screaming, shouting and actually afterwards seems to have cleared the air.
> 
> We have boundaries in place which include things being removed off phones and times it's appropriate to contact people. Not through asking but we have complete access to each others accounts and it all seems to be much better so thanks all.
> 
> One thing that does still irks me...I've seen it on a few posts that people have said 'don't confront too early'. I can't help but feel I have. I've accused, put my foot down and done other things but having had things explained, read messages and looked at timings and such I honestly believe that I may have gone to early. I don't think I was wrong in anyway but fear that by confronting when I did I may have postponed what was happening and push it deeper underground. Just going to have to keep my eyes open for anything strange and follow it up quietly.


Did your wife admit to an emotional envolment with the OM? Did she admit that her "friendship" was inappropriate for a wife and mother?

If not, keep both eyes open. It will be hard for her to cut frequent communication with him. Sounds like she is addicted to the high she feels when texting or messaging him. There is no off switch with this behavior.

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Even if you cannot find a new communication app on the phone or computer, a close look at the phone bill might help.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Like others have said find a way to contact his wife to make sure this is over. Put a var in her car and/or a pen var in her purse.
Good luck.
Do not tell her ahead of time just do it.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Did you inform the OMW?....I'm assuming not because you did not mention it.

If you did not do this, which was the PRIMARY thing that many posters have advised you to do, then you are going to have to be extra wary of this going underground now.

POSOM will conspire with your W to find hidden ways to keep communicating and make sure you cannot discover.....and now he will have SECRET conversations with your emotionally upset and angry W, which will be a green light for him to really push the envelope with her.

IMO, this situation is about to get much worse if you don't TELL THE OMW.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

Thanks for update my friend. 

You told your wife your conditions and you have to stand behind those words. If she breaks any rules you set and you dont do anything then she will see you are a weak man and there is no consequences for her actions.

Talk with OMW. This is another way to put stop on her EA. 

Some MC would be nice.

Stay strong.


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

As involved as she is with OM, you didn't confront to early. From your initial post, she was already defending him, gaslighting you, and blameshifting, so you couldn't really afford to wait longer. The longer you wait the harder it becomes to stop. 

Setting strict boundaries is good and the fact that you have full access to her electronics. As for the times it's appropriate to contact people, concerning OM it should be NEVER. If she truly understands her betrayal to the marriage, she should agree to No Contact with OM. If she hasn't agreed to go complete No Contact with OM, then your problem continues.

Hopefully you set strong boundaries and made her understand that there will be consequences to pay if they are broken. Such as having to find another job, and the OMW being contacted. Remember in the face of an affair you can't appear weak. So, if you don't mind answering a question, What exactly was asked for and agreed to in your big talk?


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## MancMan (May 5, 2016)

Palodyne said:


> As involved as she is with OM, you didn't confront to early. From your initial post, she was already defending him, gaslighting you, and blameshifting, so you couldn't really afford to wait longer. The longer you wait the harder it becomes to stop.
> 
> Setting strict boundaries is good and the fact that you have full access to her electronics. As for the times it's appropriate to contact people, concerning OM it should be NEVER. If she truly understands her betrayal to the marriage, she should agree to No Contact with OM. If she hasn't agreed to go complete No Contact with OM, then your problem continues.
> 
> Hopefully you set strong boundaries and made her understand that there will be consequences to pay if they are broken. Such as having to find another job, and the OMW being contacted. Remember in the face of an affair you can't appear weak. So, if you don't mind answering a question, What exactly was asked for and agreed to in your big talk?


keeping it brief it was deletion of the messaging app and no contact outside of work hours, family first and complete openness which I firmly believe there to be. Contact in work isn't a problem as I know they have to work together but that's where it stays. I've also asked her to make an effort with her female friends to reignite their friendships and she is doing that.

As it stands I'm happy and we feel to be back on track with time set aside for us (one night a week where we go out for a 'date night'). I'm keeping my wits about me and will remain weary for a while.

I spoke to her about contacting OMW (I don't have details to do it though) and said if it continued it would be the first thing I did. I know many will say I should do it now but as it stands where there is no proof or anything it would be my word against his and could cause problems at work.

To some that may all seem tame but I know myself, my wife and our relationship best so I'm good with it. If it changes I'll be straight on it.

Thanks all for the guidance and support through it. Fingers crossed I'll just be a spectator on here for a while!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

> Apparently the 'old me' would have been fine with it, well the new me (which I don't see as different) isn't.


This is double-talk. Wishful brain bumping into accurate memories.

When life slams your peter into the dirt you stagger to your feet and look around dazed. WTF happened?

If you are sufficiently cognizant and introspective you learn that the light that you "stand in" is not generated by you.

What happens next? You get humbled...maybe depressed, hopefully enlightened. You get more mature, more wiser. You find out that you are vulnerable. 

This is called Maturity at the point of [and behest of] The Guns of Reality. You lost your job. In this world economy, you are lucky to have a job...another topic!

I cannot tell you to "Grow UP'. You are already doing this.

With respect to your wife: and the rest of humanity....this "growing up" is not a guaranteed reaction and certainly not one evenly and assuredly going to unfold and to "happen". 

You want your wife back? Start romancing her. Take her places..do things together. Even simple things, like walks, exploring, flea markets, lunch dates, one-tank trips.

You know what she likes....deliver it to her. Keep her "too busy" to text that other Bozo.

The other man is weak. You are acting weaker and passive. Why?


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## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

MancMan said:


> keeping it brief it was deletion of the messaging app and no contact outside of work hours, family first and complete openness which I firmly believe there to be. Contact in work isn't a problem as I know they have to work together but that's where it stays. I've also asked her to make an effort with her female friends to reignite their friendships and she is doing that.


If they continue the EA or talk about personal life during work hours, that'd be okay?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Big mistake not contacting OM wife. Also, you have her the go-ahead to see/talk at work. Dumb.
All you've done is guarantee this goes underground, and it will. 
People don't stop this kind of thing unless they have to. OM wife would help with the "Have to".
It's not your word against his. You have seen her texting this guy after work incessantly. They've been told to stop at work by employers.

Go ahead and be a nice guy and not blow it up with OM wife.
You already know where nice guys finish.

You say you know your relationship best and such, and how to handle it. No, your relationship is under attack.
You either go on the offensive, or kick back and let another man groom your wife.

Do you know the guy's name? If not, you certainly are getting played like a fiddle. Of you do, you should be able to find his wife and her number. Or whatever it takes. Blow this thing they had up. 

You have NOT established boundaries yet-- she's still got your permission to see this guy
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

When she starts going out "with the girls" without you - he will be there.


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## Palodyne (Mar 3, 2016)

You said you were going to keep your eyes open, that means you have to pay very close attention to her actions. As mentioned above, if she starts going on girls night out, or going out with workmates after work for drinks, starts going in to work early, or starts to get home later than usual, if she stops mentioning him completely in conversation, becoming distant from you and getting angry at any little thing you say or do. These are all Red Flags that it has went underground and has progressed. Keep your eye's open for that. Because even if your wife has the best of intentions in working on your marriage, he is going to be there every day talking to her, trying to pull her back in.

This is why Full No Contact should be in effect. She should have written him an email of No Contact, warning him that she wants no further contact with him, or she will report him to HR if he continues trying to speak to her about personal matters. And even that would be hard with them working together everyday, but the threat of HR could act as a deterrent and back him off, providing that's what your wife really wants. But as attached to him as she seems to be, you have an uphill battle on your hands.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

Good luck OP

I certainly hope you are not back here soon posting about how you are kicking yourself that you didn't listen to the advice and tell OMW....and that you have discovered the A went underground and has gotten much worse.

You had better be on high alert with the path you have chosen.....if OM is able to convince your W to continue communicating in new ways, much harder to track and monitor, he is going to really push his agenda.

And your W is especially vulnerable right now, if your description of her anger and emotional upset during your confrontation is accurate.

Hope this works out for you, and your W truly comes to her senses and ends this nonsense.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

You are making a huge mistake my friend. You trust her to much.

Your wife said he is her best friend. She didnt want any other friends because he is all she wants. She talks with him about your personal stuff. She is in Emotional Affair and now you gave her your blessing to continue all of this. 

Your wife will have an exucse because you gave her a green light to speak with him about "job". 

No Contact means No Contact but in your case she will always pull "job talk" and you will have to go for it because you allow it.

Your Marriage is in deep trouble and if you go on like this you are going to get hurt,sorry.

Stay strong.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Prepare yourself for the next plot lines in the cheater's script:

- She and the OM discuss you as if you are raining on their parade and that you need to be tolerated but not respected. It is your WW and her OM on one side, and you on the other.

- They go underground with apps, burner phones, etc., that you don't have access to.

- You are too frightened to contact the OMW, so he feels like the winner in the king of the jungle contest (his own woman and your woman), and you are the dupe.

If you contact his BW, you will most likely stop this progression. If you are afraid to do it, then find some anonymous way to handle it. (I don't like the anonymous approach, but it's better than nothing. His BW has a right to know what's happening in her own life.)


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

Oh boy. You don't need to look at the destination sign to know where this train is headed.

"Train now leaving from EA to PA, AAALL ABOARD!" Toot! Toot!


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

One other thing I forgot to mention OP.

Since you told your W during your confrontation/conversation that the first thing you will do if this 'friendship' crosses boundaries again is tell OMW.....your W WILL inform OM of this.

He will now begin to prepare his BW with stories of this 'crazy', 'jealous', and 'controlling' H of one of his co-workers.

He will do this to gaslight his W and plant seeds of doubt about you and what you say in case you ever do tell his BW that the A has been going on and continued.

It was a mistake to tell your W that you would do this if they didn't stop.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

BBF said:


> And, don't venture down a slippery slope of her stepping over the boundaries. One inch over, is over.





Be smart said:


> If she breaks any rules you set and you dont do anything then she will see you are a weak man and there is no consequences for her actions. Stay strong.


+1000

These lines in the sand have to be nuclear and without question. Even the appearance of maybe crossing a line has to be the same thing as actually crossing the line, and she has to know it.

I told my wife if I found out about any further deceptions, past present or future, from anyone but her it would be instant D. So when I detected something was going on she would confess to a deception. I didn't know what was happening, so she _technically_ didn't fail my nuclear boundary because _she_ is the one who told me.

Your wife has to know that your boundaries involve any attempt to violate the rules as well as any actual violation. She has to know it is a binary situation, yes or no, with the bias _heavily_ against her. She has to go out of her way to be sure nothing even might have a whiff of a hint that she is approaching the boundary. Put the burden on her, not on you.


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