# Attachment Parenting Therapy for BPD-type behavior



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Has anyone studied attachment theory to use in relation to BPD-type behavior? Or simply used attachment style parenting with a spouse with similar behavior? 

I have heard a little about this in a similar context, and would like to hear more real life experiences. Thank you!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> Has anyone studied attachment theory to use in relation to BPD-type behavior? Or simply used *attachment style parenting with a spouse* with similar behavior?


JLD, that's an interesting question. Sorry, but I cannot offer any real-life experiences with using attachment theory to tame my exW's BPD behavior. My view toward using _"attachment style parenting with a spouse"_ is that, unless you are stranded on a deserted island, you have no business trying to provide therapy to a spouse. It is impossible to have both a parent/child relationship and a husband/wife relationship with the same woman. Hence, if you want the former, you should adopt her -- not marry her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Uptown said:


> JLD, that's an interesting question. Sorry, but I cannot offer any real-life experiences with using attachment theory to tame my exW's BPD behavior. My view toward using _"attachment style parenting with a spouse"_ is that, unless you are stranded on a deserted island, you have no business trying to provide therapy to a spouse. It is impossible to have both a parent/child relationship and a husband/wife relationship with the same woman. Hence, if you want the former, you should adopt her -- not marry her.


Hi, Uptown. I brought this up because I came across a blog a couple months ago of a man who is using this approach with his wife who has multiple-personality disorder. He studied attachment theory and decided to use what he learned with her.

Apparently her progress with this approach has been remarkable.

He has gotten criticism from mental health professionals, though, as well as some friends, I believe. I think it has surprised him, as he thought everyone would just be happy to see her getting better.

Principles v. results?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JLD, I agree with you that it's hard to argue with success. I nonetheless am skeptical of his claims. And, even if it did work with him, this one example would be a weak basis on which to recommend that other abused spouses start "parenting" their disordered spouses.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks, Uptown. The blog is called, "Loving My DID Girl(s)," if you would like to google it and see what you think.

The love and perseverance of the husband is just amazing. Humbling, even.

Thanks again.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Uptown, if you do go on that site, please be sure to click on the Attachment Theory Issues at the top. What I am reading seems like it would be very reassuring to someone with BPD.

Best,
jld


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I know a thing or two about psychology  but I would not dream of a DIY solution with my BPD wife. 

Attachment theory has its pros and cons for parenting. We did that back when our marriage was good with our daughters, and ended up with mixed results. It worked great for young children but turned into helicopter parenting when the girls became older. I still drive my college junior to her doctor's appointments when she's home. And she's a great friend. But attachment parenting did not have much to do with all that.

Would i try attachment parenting with Dr. Mrs. BPD? well, I don't think so. One of the basic premises of BPD is the inability to form a close relationship for fear of smothering. I don't see that happening. I am a 'solid caregiver' based on the guy's website definition but this is for practical subjects only - my wife has outsourced a lot of 'manual tasks' on me like filling up her car, paying the bills, etc. but things of a more intimate or close nature, I don't think so Tim. 

To me playing Florence Nightingale has more to do with offloading stress from my wife in the hope that the fewer decisions she needs to make, the better she'll be able to make those that matter more. That kind of works. Not a good idea but it does work, tho it promotes various other undesirable plots in the relationship - codependence for one. But I was always a caregiver type, even to my parents, to my daughters, so...

Another issue I'd be skeptical about is that of intimacy. Playing Florence Nightingale does not allow for a more healthy relationship to evolve or emerge. Ultimately you'll be seen as either the super good guy who fills up her pseudo SUV with the right type of gas or painted the wrong shade of dark for thinking that being nice will be the way into her pants... That's BPD for y'all... 

Finally the biggest issue I would worry about is that people - at least me - need their space. Attachment parenting works great when you have a five year old, but adults are expected to be left to their own devices once in a while. 

The guy's website makes a bit of an extrapolation about attachment theory in adults. I don't see that happening as an acceptable or desirable outcome. 

So, I'd say read the guy's website, but keep in mind BPD is not DID, and, to be frank, I'd rather deal with 1 nice real 'girl' and 6 imaginary 'girls' than one too-real BPD.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

What Uptown said. The partner/spouse should remain exactly that and should not attempt to be a parent or a therapist.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, I hear that this approach is not going over. Has anyone looked at the Reignite the Fire website? Opinions on that?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I did, and let's just say I have my doubts. Rick does make some good arguments but as I have found the hard way there's a big difference between addressing symptoms via "strong boundaries" etc and reversing or improving toxic behaviors. 

There's no easy path thru BPD unfortunately, and it's something best left to the pros.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Are the pros having much success? What do you have to look forward to with their approach?

Look, I don't mean to sound sarcastic and disrespectful. But the little I have read about guys with BPD wives, well, they all just sound so depressed, so worn out. If I were a guy with a BPD wife, I think I would consider something outside the mainstream.

Again, I don't mean to be a pain. I just really feel bad for these gals. From what I read, they are like five year olds inside. I wonder sometimes if I had something like this when I was younger. I only heard about BPD a few months ago, and when I read the checklist, I was kind of concerned. I am a lot better now that I am older, but 20 years ago . . . who knows? And I am so lucky my dh was never fazed by those temper tantrums I used to have. He just stood there, solid as a rock, while I would scream and carry on, calling him names and cursing at him. Then he would comfort me later, helping me calm down and validating my feelings. It was so reassuring, so stabilizing.

I guess I just feel bad for these gals, and I would like for them to get the care they need to heal. When I found that DID blog, it occurred to me that maybe this approach could work for BPD, too. And I think the truth of the matter is that you don't know unless you try.

Okay, sorry if I offended. I did not mean to, but I think the free exchange of ideas on TAM is really healthy and can help us grow.

Peace, and best of luck.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It all depends on the motivation of the BPD to seek help. You could have Sigmund himself as a therapist and if you're not motivated to change then it's all for naught.

I'm pretty sure the RIF dude is more about coping than it is about fixing. Fixing, assuming it is even possible, requires considerable digging down to the basics or techniques that have passed peer review and scrutiny like DBT and CBT. 

I guess if someone had tried other techniques and did not have success anything else that could be tried would seem like a good idea - but the fallacy may be that it is all fixable if one does this or says that, simple things. That is not my experience.

BPD is trying to even the most patient partner. But some of us have this hope that the person we fell in love with is still in there and can come out. Stretch goal, I know, but I've done stretchier things in life.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

The person is there and they can come out. If they want to. I did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

JLD, I agree with what John and SoulPotato said above.


jld said:


> Are the pros having much success?


JLD, my understanding is that, yes, they are having much success with treatments such as CBT and DBT. Those programs are excellent in teaching BPDers the skills they were unable to learn in childhood due to the trauma they experienced. The problem, then, is not a lack of good treatment programs but, rather, a lack of ATTENDANCE. 

Because BPDers are filled with so much self loathing and shame, their subconscious minds protect them from seeing too much of reality. The result is that it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength required for being willing to seek out those programs. And, even when that is done (usually due to an insistent spouse), it is rare for a BPDer to stay in the program long enough to make a real difference.


> When I found that DID blog, it occurred to me that maybe this approach could work for BPD, too.


As John explains above, it is _extremely unlikely_ that this husband's experience with attachment theory and DID will serve as a useful guide to any H trying to help his BPDer spouse. One reason is that, whereas this man's multiple-personality W was very self aware and desperately wanting guidance, it is rare for a BPDer to be self aware and even more rare for her to want such guidance.

Another reason is that, whereas this man's W trusted her H, a W having strong BPD traits is incapable of trusting anything her H is suggesting she do. Until she learns how to trust herself, she will be incapable of trusting others who are close to her. She therefore will refuse to believe anything he says. Indeed, this is why it is impossible to convince a BPDer that you truly love her. 

A third reason, as I noted earlier, is that you cannot have a healthy husband/wife relationship while also having a parent/child relationship or a therapist/client relationship with that same woman. 

Finally, a fourth reason is that, whereas this man's W allowed him to get close to her for extended periods so as to build an attachment, BPDers are notorious for being unable to attach to their spouses. The reason is that their two fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum. 

This means that, as the H draws close to be comforting and loving, his W will NOT form a strong attachment. Instead, she will soon develop a terrifying feeling of being suffocated and engulfed by his "dominating" personality. She will feel "controlled" and also feel like she is evaporating into thin air, losing herself into his strong personality. Yet, as he backs off to give her breathing space, he unavoidably is drawing closer to triggering the other fear: abandonment.

Hence, both of them are stuck in a lose-lose predicament, where they lose no matter what they do. Sadly, there is no "midpoints position" where the H can safely stand to avoid triggering both fears. That Goldilocks position simply does not exist. I know because I foolishly spent 15 years hunting for it.


> The little I have read about guys with BPD wives, well, they all just sound so depressed, so worn out. If I were a guy with a BPD wife, I think I would consider something outside the mainstream.


The reason that the "Nons" (nonBPDers) are "so worn out" is that they are exhausted from spending years trying everything, leaving no stone unturned. And they likely have already considered "something outside the mainstream" many times.

In my case, for example, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and 3 MCs, all to no avail. It was very expensive and time consuming because she did weekly visits for 15 years. And so I could learn how to best support her at home, I myself went to joint and individual counseling sessions with those same therapists every other week for 15 years. The end result, as you already know, is that she had me thrown into jail for 3 days and obtained a R/O barring me from returning to my own home for 18 months.


> I guess I just feel bad for these gals, and I would like for them to get the care they need to heal.


Nearly all of the hundreds of Nons I've communicated with share that same sentiment and goal. That's why most of them hang on for many years until, eventually, the BPDer becomes so resentful that she walks out on him. 

The problem, then, is not convincing a Non to _"consider something outside the mainstream"_ but, rather, convincing him to _stop trying to fix his W_ (an impossible task). She is the only person who can do it and she refuses to do so.


> Okay, sorry if I offended. I did not mean to, but I think the free exchange of ideas on TAM is really healthy and can help us grow.


Offended? Silly woman, you're way too gentle, considerate, and articulate to be offensive. Moreover, you raise some very good questions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Pidge, is your story here somewhere? Would you mind linking it?

Uptown, I appreciated your response. I do think it is kind of cheeky of me to come here and tell people what I think they should do when I am not living it. But I identify at least somewhat with these BPD gals, and I am not sure I would like to be treated in some of the ways I have read. Just my feeling, whatever that's worth.

I am concerned to hear that an idea is just dismissed, seemingly for theoretical reasons. To me, what works or might work should be considered. But maybe that is just me.

I'm sorry for what you and others have been through. But I am even sorrier for all those unhappy, unhealthy women. I'm not sure it has to be that way. Sam Ruck says a healthy, loving spouse can accomplish more than a therapist, simply because the spouse is with the woman far more than the therapist, and knows her very, very well. 

I wonder if it is like homeschooling.

Again, I know I am really dipping a toe in somewhat foreign water here. But you seem willing to consider and discuss, and I appreciate that.

Best,
jld


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Psychology is all about theory I am afraid. So if the commonly accepted body of knowledge says "thou shalt not such and such" there's usually a good reason why.

Oftentimes we may try a DIY or non pro approach and it may originally work as expected. But there are often unanticipated consequences that come back and bite us when we least expect it.

Sam Ruck may have a point but keep in mind that a spouse may be reluctant to open up to her or his partner for fear of opening up more cans of worms vs with a pro. 

I know exactly down to the last neuron what my wife thinks or what she will do at any given time. That does not make my odds of changing her behavior any better. It helps avoid stressful situations on occasion but in the grand scheme of things a powder keg will remain a powder keg regardless of me knowing what is inside and what - pardon the pun - makes it tick.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

jld, nothing wrong with you bringing up an idea that might help people! Stop apologizing, ok?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I appreciate the support, turnera, but it seems like when people get offended, they stop listening. And if they stop listening, the idea doesn't even get heard, much less tried. And then we'll never see if it can help those women.

I just think it is possible to help these women, and it would not have to involve lots of expensive counseling. But it is just my thought, you know? And I feel like it keeps getting shot down, pretty much for theoretical reasons.

If I had listened to common theory, I may never have homeschooled. And it has worked out so well. And so what does my 78 year old friend who used to be a teacher and principal say? "Your dd is special." In other words, it was a fluke that homeschooling worked, and is working for my boys. My friend's mind is made up. I just don't discuss homeschooling with her anymore. And I think that is sad. I think it is sad when conversation stops. And so I am trying for that not to happen here.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Uptown, I appreciated your response. I do think it is kind of cheeky of me to come here and tell people what I think they should do when I am not living it. But I identify at least somewhat with these BPD gals, and I am not sure I would like to be treated in some of the ways I have read. Just my feeling, whatever that's worth.


JLD, not cheeky at all. We need more diverse viewpoints on these BPD discussions anyway.  Your compassion and empathy are greatly appreciated. I agree that being treated in the ways that I, too, have read would be unpleasant and downright harmful. I am often thankful that my own partner did not try those approaches/behaviors on me, because my reaction would not have been good! Don't need any more damage here, yo.  Not to say that we BPDers aren't damaging to others, because we are, and our partners/spouses tend to pay the highest cost and deal with the worst of it. But there _is_ hope out there.



jld said:


> I am concerned to hear that an idea is just dismissed, seemingly for theoretical reasons. To me, what works or might work should be considered. But maybe that is just me.


I don't feel the reasons it's discouraged are only theoretical reasons. The basic issue is confusion of roles and relationships that shouldn't be commingled. A partner/spouse is too close to the BPDer to play therapist, too, and it's just not healthy to try to be partner, therapist, and parent, all rolled into one. That's putting way too much on the partner/spouse of the disordered partner/spouse, especially considering what they are already "taking".



jld said:


> I'm sorry for what you and others have been through. But I am even sorrier for all those unhappy, unhealthy women. I'm not sure it has to be that way. Sam Ruck says a healthy, loving spouse can accomplish more than a therapist, simply because the spouse is with the woman far more than the therapist, and knows her very, very well.
> 
> I wonder if it is like homeschooling.


Hope you don't mind if I share a little on this subject. 

I definitely agree with this. I am greatly in support of the partner/spouse being able to make a HUGE difference to the BPDer (I'm not saying FIX them), and that's because I have experienced that with my own partner. Of course she is not perfect, and we have both made a lot of mistakes, but she gave me the safest place I'd ever known. They say BPDers can't trust and won't ever believe someone loves them, but I believe in her. I do doubt sometimes when things are bad, but mostly I believe. And it was because of her that I was able to start pulling the pieces of myself together. Granted, I still needed therapy, but my partner's love, acceptance, and support gave me the leg up I needed to be less disordered and less destructive than when she first met me. I still made a mess of things because I didn't think I needed therapy, but I was better than I had been. And ten years later, I sought out therapy because of this very same partner of mine. She's why I fight. Some people might say that's wrong, that I should fight for myself, but I'm not there yet. And if she got me moving on the path to recovery and keeps me motivated, isn't that ultimately a good thing? I have something to hope for and work towards.

The comment you make about homeschooling is really interesting. When I first met my partner and we had any kind of issue, I didn't understand how to be gentle or hold back, and I would just blow her away. But gradually I began seeing the deleterious effect my blasts had on her, and she helped me realize that I could just use my words and a "light" touch to get my point(s) across. My concern for her made it possible for me to start holding back and pulling my blows because I was more concerned for her well-being than I was about making sure I was heard or had "expressed" my feelings. She has been "teaching" me for years. I wouldn't be where I am now without her help.

The therapists I've been to in the last year have been helpful, but like you say, they're nowhere near as involved in your life as a partner/spouse is, and a lot of them don't have the time to spare to see a BPDer through for years, and certainly not the investment.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> The person is there and they can come out. If they want to. I did.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not theoretical reasons only, but practical reasons as well. Let's say I do CBT with my wife. No big deal, I do cognitive psychology for a living, how hard can it be to try CBT with her?

About as hard as doing your own root canal. The familiarity between spouses is not conducive to the intricacies of such approaches. CBT is all about changing how one thinks and behaves. A BPD is not likely to open up to her Non as much as she would to a pro simply because of fear she "will be taken advantage of". 

Doing this in a familiar environment i.e. at home also distracts the process. Think of a bad habit a BPD my have, let's say in my wife's case, picking food from our plate while she's making dinner. It is an extremely annoying habit which with a BPD can escalate to a control issue and quickly spin out of control. The pro CBT approach could be to slowly and steadily discuss her thoughts and expected behavior in an office setting where there is no incentive or opportunity to misbehave. I tried it at home and found out that despite me discussing it at length she still does it. Her brain sees the dual reward of food and annoying us at the same time and no amount of DIY CBT can fix this.

A spouse also may not have the time or patience to deal with this. I raised two kids practically alone, I don't feel I have energy left to "raise" another. I wish I did but I don't.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Uptown said:


> JLD, I agree with what John and SoulPotato said above.JLD, my understanding is that, yes, they are having much success with treatments such as CBT and DBT. Those programs are excellent in teaching BPDers the skills they were unable to learn in childhood due to the trauma they experienced. The problem, then, is not a lack of good treatment programs but, rather, a lack of ATTENDANCE.


I would beg to differ on just one point, here. There IS a lack of availability with regard to qualified therapists and treatment programs. If you're in a major city, maybe not, but where I live (and it's not Timbuktu), I only ever found two therapists who were qualified to deal with BPD. One was not on my insurance and I had to use a short-term program to see her (which then ran out). The other who was actually on my insurance was extremely busy as she was "the" expert on BPD within many miles. Not to mention, most insurance companies don't seem to want to cover BPD treatment. Even without being told that that's what I was being treated for, my insurance kept challenging my need to keep going to my therapist. They were like, "What is the treatment program? What is the diagnosis? How long is this going to take, we need a definite termination date." I do not have the money to pay out-of-pocket for therapists. I only just have enough money to live.



Uptown said:


> A third reason, as I noted earlier, is that you cannot have a healthy husband/wife relationship while also having a parent/child relationship or a therapist/client relationship with that same woman.


:iagree:



Uptown said:


> Finally, a fourth reason is that, whereas this man's W allowed him to get close to her for extended periods so as to build an attachment, BPDers are notorious for being unable to attach to their spouses. The reason is that their two fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at the opposite ends of the VERY SAME spectrum.


Stable attachments are tough, yeah. Any little thing can disrupt their formation for a BPDer. In my entire life, I think I have only ever formed a real attachment to one person, my partner. It is possible for a BPDer to form a strong attachment...it's just not par for the course.



Uptown said:


> This means that, as the H draws close to be comforting and loving, his W will NOT form a strong attachment. Instead, she will soon develop a terrifying feeling of being suffocated and engulfed by his "dominating" personality. She will feel "controlled" and also feel like she is evaporating into thin air, losing herself into his strong personality. Yet, as he backs off to give her breathing space, he unavoidably is drawing closer to triggering the other fear: abandonment.


The personality thing was always confusing to me. Yes, there's the unstable sense of self and constant fluctuation, but there are also strong components of personality evident as well. I think that maybe a lot of BPDers actually have strong personalities, but they're all jumbled and distorted prior to treatment. If that makes sense? 



Uptown said:


> The reason that the "Nons" (nonBPDers) are "so worn out" is that they are exhausted from spending years trying everything, leaving no stone unturned. And they likely have already considered "something outside the mainstream" many times.


I think also because a lot of the nons we see talking about their BPDers on here have been dealing with untreated BPDers. Treatment obviously makes a big difference. So to get to trying the "mainstream" first is the biggest issue in that equation, I guess.



Uptown said:


> In my case, for example, I spent a small fortune taking my exW to six different psychologists and 3 MCs, all to no avail. It was very expensive and time consuming because she did weekly visits for 15 years.


Maybe if she had been paying for it herself, she would have taken it more seriously!  But...it boggles my mind that anyone would go and not be really determined to try. I hate wasting time and energy, so I couldn't imagine just going to go. Without any results to deliver, how pointful would that be? Just my perspective on it. Guess there are just some people who don't care to try, or to work on saving what they have with a supportive, caring spouse. Sorry you ended up with that kind of person, Uptown. 



Uptown said:


> Nearly all of the hundreds of Nons I've communicated with share that same sentiment and goal. That's why most of them hang on for many years until, eventually, the BPDer becomes so resentful that she walks out on him.


Or, in the more hopeful scenario, the BPDer gets a clue and buckles down on getting better. I am more committed to my partner now than I've ever been.



Uptown said:


> The problem, then, is not convincing a Non to _"consider something outside the mainstream"_ but, rather, convincing him to _stop trying to fix his W_ (an impossible task). She is the only person who can do it and she refuses to do so.


This is true. Spouses/partners tend to take too much on and feel responsible for their BPDers. But only the BPDer can truly fix things. It's a long, winding path to get to that place, and to really understand the way things are and what is needed.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> About as hard as doing your own root canal. The familiarity between spouses is not conducive to the intricacies of such approaches. CBT is all about changing how one thinks and behaves. A BPD is not likely to open up to her Non as much as she would to a pro simply because of fear she "will be taken advantage of".


Totally agree that familiarity and subjectivity are problems in that situation.

John, maybe I'm weird, but I actually trust my non more than I do any professional (or anyone).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Trust is one thing - mine trusts nobody herself included - but it's more of an authority or position of power type issue.

As you may have read my wife is a firm believer in the MMSL aka Merchant Marine Sex Life i.e. not very often. Suppose Dr. John here suggests more sex, intimacy, etc as an opportunity to emotionally connect better - plausible DIY solution for two spouses drifting apart. Ain't happening simply because the shields come up and she stops listening to anything else I say good or bad.

Now suppose the Doc that diagnosed her (the Jamie Lee Curtis lookalike) makes the same suggestion. At best she'll jump in her pseudo SUV and stop by Victoria's Secret on the way home  on average she may consider it and at worst she will ignore it without tossing everything else Dr. Jamie said.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Soulpotato, do you have your story on here somewhere? I would like to read it. 

I don't mean to come out against treatment. But I think relying solely on treatment, when so much more can be done at home, in addition to treatment, could be effective. And treatment is expensive. And a therapist just does not have the investment in you that your spouse does.

And soulpotato, I think your wife must be a very, very special lady. Rick from RIF says women should not be with BPD guys, as it would be too hard. But your wife and you have proven him wrong. Hats off.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> ... and, to be frank, I'd rather deal with 1 nice real 'girl' and 6 imaginary 'girls' than one too-real BPD.


:lol::rofl: Classic! That has got to be one of the funniest things you've said!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> A BPD is not likely to open up to her Non as much as she would to a pro simply because of fear she "will be taken advantage of".
> 
> Doing this in a familiar environment i.e. at home also distracts the process. Think of a bad habit a BPD my have, let's say in my wife's case, picking food from our plate while she's making dinner. It is an extremely annoying habit which with a BPD can escalate to a control issue and quickly spin out of control. The pro CBT approach could be to slowly and steadily discuss her thoughts and expected behavior in an office setting where there is no incentive or opportunity to misbehave. I tried it at home and found out that despite me discussing it at length she still does it. Her brain sees the dual reward of food and annoying us at the same time and no amount of DIY CBT can fix this.
> 
> A spouse also may not have the time or patience to deal with this. I raised two kids practically alone, I don't feel I have energy left to "raise" another. I wish I did but I don't.


I think it is good that you are honest in saying that you just don't want to do it. I hear reasons regularly why people just "can't" homeschool. Okay, I heard it. I don't see it that way, but I don't argue with them.

As far as picking from her plate while she is cooking (? not sure I got that), have you read anything by Barbara Coloroso? Yes, she is a parenting expert, but I think she has good ideas for all relationships.

Maybe the parenting word is what is scaring people here. I need another word.

And about that first sentence, and I say this gently, she doesn't need to fear that, right?


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Soulpotato, do you have your story on here somewhere? I would like to read it.


Only in bits and pieces, JLD. But I would be glad to talk with you in depth and discuss things. 



jld said:


> I don't mean to come out against treatment. But I think relying _solely_ on treatment, when so much more can be done at home, in addition to treatment, could be effective. And treatment is expensive. And a therapist just does not have the investment in you that your spouse does.


I think I get what you're saying, I really do. I don't think a sole reliance on treatment is the answer, but I have (personally) come to believe that it is a key piece of the equation after believing for many years that it was unnecessary (at least for me - I thought I wasn't "bad" enough - haha!!). I think it is a two-pronged thing, really - treatment without a support system (or having an unsupportive spouse/partner) will be much more difficult. Support without treatment, again, much more difficult. I think the best result comes with whatever treatment works best for the BPDer (which may not always be mainstream, though those methods often seem to be the best bet currently) plus a support system (especially a supportive partner/spouse). You are right that treatment is expensive! And it can be hard to get, depending on where you are and what the insurance situation is.



jld said:


> And soulpotato, I think your wife must be a very, very special lady. Rick from RIF says women should not be with BPD guys, as it would be too hard. But your wife and you have proven him wrong. Hats off.


Haha, well, she is not my wife yet.  And I'm actually a girl. But yes, she is very special. I'm very grateful for her. Thank you.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

john117 said:


> As you may have read my wife is a firm believer in the MMSL aka Merchant Marine Sex Life i.e. not very often. Suppose Dr. John here suggests more sex, intimacy, etc as an opportunity to emotionally connect better - plausible DIY solution for two spouses drifting apart. Ain't happening simply because the shields come up and she stops listening to anything else I say good or bad.


This may be a female/male thing and not all a BPD thing. I've often read that men and women tend to view this differently. A woman may want to fix emotional/relationship issues by talking, etc, and then the sex can happen. A man may think that the sex should come first and will then make things better. Not all women and men are like this, of course, but much has been made of how men connect emotionally with those they love via sex/physical intimacy whereas women need other things (as well) to feel that connection, or to be okay with making that connection once things have gone wrong in the relationship. If all isn't well in the heart of the Mrs. regarding you, she may have trouble connecting during physical intimacy.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> Haha, well, she is not my wife yet.  And I'm actually a girl. But yes, she is very special. I'm very grateful for her. Thank you.


WHOOPS! Sorry about that! LOL!

Feel free to pm me. I don't know if I can be of help, but I would certainly listen. 

Dh has been a parent to me as well as a husband, and has brought about so much healing in my life. I just don't get the problem with that role. And I would not trade our relationship for the world.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

jld said:


> WHOOPS! Sorry about that! LOL!
> 
> Feel free to pm me. I don't know if I can be of help, but I would certainly listen.
> 
> Dh has been a parent to me as well as a husband, and has brought about so much healing in my life. I just don't get the problem with that role. And I would not trade our relationship for the world.


LOL, it's okay! 

Well, if it works for you guys, that's great.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> Pidge, is your story here somewhere? Would you mind linking it?
> 
> Uptown, I appreciated your response. I do think it is kind of cheeky of me to come here and tell people what I think they should do when I am not living it. But I identify at least somewhat with these BPD gals, and I am not sure I would like to be treated in some of the ways I have read. Just my feeling, whatever that's worth.
> 
> ...



I had my story on here but, deleted it. I got sick and tired of certain posters consistently implying that people like me are all sociopaths.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

pidge70 said:


> I had my story on here but, deleted it. I got sick and tired of certain posters consistently implying that people like me are all sociopaths.


Hey, I'm sorry, Pidge. I bet that hurts. I am so glad you got better, though.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

jld said:


> Hey, I'm sorry, Pidge. I bet that hurts. I am so glad you got better, though.


Thank you.

It's all gravy.....lol I have a way better understanding of who I am now. Not quite "normal" yet, then again, I don't think I want to be......:rofl:


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...dunno...on one hand...yes...being a therapist/parental role and trying to raise a spouse strikes me as a bad idea.

I'm American-born - with expectations of gender equality - but can't help noticing that the divorce rate here is really high. On the other hand, some women/cultures dislike the idea of gender equality...

And on the third hand, regarding attachment parenting, one of my wife's panic triggers is related to being neglected by her parents. Having a tendency towards B/W thinking, combined with a strong trigger, and high emotional arousal...makes it hard to cope with a husband whose response to endless conversations or offensive behavior involves walking away... I dunno. I suspect it may be reasonable to sometimes bend your boundaries and treat someone gently...or at least take pains to articulate why you're treating them harshly... Mind you, that is a slippery slope. 

--Argyle


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

argyle said:


> ...dunno...on one hand...yes...being a therapist/parental role and trying to raise a spouse strikes me as a bad idea.
> 
> I'm American-born - with expectations of gender equality - but can't help noticing that the divorce rate here is really high. On the other hand, some women/cultures dislike the idea of gender equality...
> 
> ...


Would you ever like to be treated harshly?

Me neither.

I think I must be using the wrong word when I say parenting, as it just seems to raise all kinds of red flags for people. But I am not really sure how else to describe it. I read that BPD folks are 3-5 years old inside. How do you expect someone like that to act like an adult? Aren't you just going to frustrate yourself?

Set reasonable boundaries and enforce them. Be patient, kind, and firm. Explain why you are upset and ask her what she can do differently next time. Unless you truly believe yourself in danger, stay in the room when she is angry; she really needs you when she is out of control.

I read once that in patient treatment for BPD is pretty similar to the above: strict routine in a controlled setting. Wouldn't it be cheaper just to do this yourself at home? And then she really bonds to you.

I am sure you have to love a woman very much to do all this. And you have to be mature and not lazy. This is not the road for a selfish man. Really, only a secure man could do it.

Keep thinking, argyle.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

When I think about the words "attachment parenting" you would think that it would almost sound better if you were talking about adults--that it would somehow be less perverse if children weren't involved. But no matter how you spin it, it's just skeevy to think about parenting your spouse. I know that I certainly wouldn't tolerate being treated like a child by another adult, and well--I really only want to have relationships with other adults, not someone that needs re-parenting. But yeah, "attachment parenting" and "spouse" just make the whole arrangement sound absolutely incestuous. I get shivers everytime I see this thread pop up....


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Correction - BPD's are 3-5 year olds emotionally, not developmentally. They may be having gaps in life skills or there may be situations that they simply not handle well. 

My favorite Dr. Mrs. BPD has a number of such functional gaps - the cognitive psychologist in me guesses that she never developed the right mental models for some simple tasks because they frustrate her or she has fear of failure and related insecurities. Imagine a well educated woman that will not fill up her pseudo SUV with gas for fear she will put diesel in it. So Dr. J here does that as an act of service (it helps said pseudo SUV - BMW x3 - drives nicer than my Mini S)...

Strict routine in a controlled environment - read inpatient psych ward or lengthy IC - is not the same as DIY at home. Boundaries are different, the BPD has home court advantage, and many other ways to avoid doing the right thing. 

You do have to love them a lot and appreciate the moments of clarity. This past Sunday we dropped off our older to her college and drove back. Spent the entire time talking about Jane Austin and Pride and Prejudice. She is really into it and is actually reading the book, I was blown away she actually reads something. At night we actually had a great time and a few too many martinis - I haven't heard her laugh this much in years. So there are good moments there, but when the bad moments come you need to be able to clinically detach yourself from your BPD. That's tough to do.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I didn't marry my husband to be parented or to parent. I have very good parents already.

I wouldn't be interested in marriage as a project, or a fixer-upper. I'm very glad my husband is a totally functional and reliable adult, and that I am too. We practice attachment parenting with out children, I can't imagine having the emotional resources to do that while also parenting a spouse. 

When my daughters are choosing relationship partners I really hope they choose secure, emotionally strong people.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

People change unfortunately and illnesses - mental or otherwise - show up years or decades after emotionally strong and secure people marry.

Antidepressants aren't selling like hot cakes in the USA for no reason... And that has been going on for decades.... I bet you're too young to remember Valium.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Dealing with depression in a spouse isn't really comparable to attachment parenting a spouse. 

I can't imagine being in a marriage that had the kind of power differential that would allow one spouse to parent the other.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

I think it's generally recognized that therapists should do the reparenting of the BPDer.

Lyris, good luck to your kids on finding their perfectly functional partners! 

For what it's worth, having BPD doesn't mean one can't be a reliable adult.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lyris said:


> Dealing with depression in a spouse isn't really comparable to attachment parenting a spouse.
> 
> I can't imagine being in a marriage that had the kind of power differential that would allow one spouse to parent the other.



It's not comparable but depression is often what is diagnosed by family practice doctors and other medical professionals. Meaning that there's tons of undiagnosed or misdiagnosed individuals out there, making the difficulty of landing a non a wee bit higher. 

As for power differential, let's just say the power differential from income in a relationship dwarfs any other differential I could think of. 

Both of the above are fairly USA specific incidentally, so consider geography carefully.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I can't speak for others but only for myself. For me, If I were in a relationship with someone that I felt went from husband/wife relationship to parent/child relationship, then I'm probably with the wrong person.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> I think it's generally recognized that therapists should do the reparenting of the BPDer.
> 
> Lyris, good luck to your kids on finding their perfectly functional partners!
> 
> For what it's worth, having BPD doesn't mean one can't be a reliable adult.


Per our last exchange, i think we agree. The therapist can be a guide, but the SO can play an incredibly supportive role as the person with the most invested in the BPD woman.

Again, people are hung up on the parenting word, without looking at its meaning here: loving, firm support from an invested source.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have had to deal with a difficult teenager and a BPD wife. Dealing with the teenager - who was brought up with attachment parenting - was fairly easy. You talk, they understand, they do something good, you reward them, they do something stupid, there are consequences, and you empower them to reason and make the right choices.

When dealing with a BPD - untreated - spouse, if they paint you black, you can't change it and you may not be able to reason with them on those issues. Their natural what-if analysis goes out the window, and consequences are irrelevant. 

You can provide love and emotional support but at best you're maintaining the status quo. Relatively advanced stages of BPD are not DIY by any stretch.

Here's what I mean consequences: my kids always pick up their mess because they know that Bad Things will happen if they don't. My wife is a clean freak everywhere except her own home office. Nearly every day there's a drama about lost papers and other things among the stuff piled on the floor. To her, the moral victory of not being organized outweighs the benefits. Same with her laptop. So I pick my fights and let her suffer by wasting two hours to find something rather than spending an evening organizing her stuff. Did that several times, no luck. To her, such an organization is bad because she admits I'm right and she has to change ways. No can do. No such issues with my kids.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What you describe is also called Authoritative Parenting. What I did, too. I remember asking DD once, after one of her friends yet AGAIN got grounded and bailed on going to some event with us, why she never got in trouble like they all did. She just shrugged and said "Why would I do something I know I'm going to get in trouble for?"


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am not really sure how to say this without sounding disrespectful, John117. I feel like every time I bring up this approach, you just tell me why it won't work. And you keep "warning" me about how unhealthy what dh and I do is, even though it is working (defined as healing and bringing us closer) for us. 

It seems like your relationship is just coasting along, not necessarily making progress. What would progress look like to you?

I feel very bad for women with BPD because I know how I sometimes feel inside. I can totally relate to black and white thinking, terror of abandonment, pushing people away for no reason, and feeling like I am 5 years old inside. 

I think dh has been incredibly loving, firm, and supportive at these times, and I know how healing that has been. This is what I want for other women, too. After all, there but for the grace of God go I.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

What about women married to men with BPD? Do think this approach is appropriate for them?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Lyris said:


> What about women married to men with BPD? Do think this approach is appropriate for them?


The guy from the Reignite the Fire website says no. He says men can handle BPD women, but BPD men are too much for women. I think those men have to try to heal themselves, or get help from other men. I don't really know.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I haven't read anything from any blogs or articles or other sites, but the whole theory of attachment parenting is that you meet their every need. It seems that this would be impossible for anyone who hopes to live a normal life, especially if they also have kids and a job.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

IMO BPD is BPD wether it's a man or woman that has it. And yes it can effect people differently that may have it. It can also
Effect people on the receiving end differently. Bottom line, people have to what works for them. There are many people who haven't ever
found what works for them and may not ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Note that I have spoken in generalities, or specifically for my own case, without extrapolating to anyone else specifically. My thoughts, as well as those of clinicians agree that in most cases the spouse should not take the parent role. There is a support role for the spouse, a critical role, but without competent outside intervention it's not doable in my view. 

Fundamentally I see marriage as two discrete independent people without the political, emotional, or religious joining at the hip that passes for "attachment marriage". I busted my tail for 50 odd years to be me, not a married symbiont of someone else, and not with a symbiont grafted into me by the powers vested by the state or church or what not.

When it comes down to it, in my view, love or sex or anything don't make our responsibilities diminish, or our utility bills grow smaller. Perhaps that does not make me successful marriage material but I can't see myself spending umpteen hours of quality couple time every week if other, more pressing needs are knocking. Regardless of reciprocity. I know that this is the practical Northern European in me speaking rather than the passionate Southern European in me... Oh well. 

To me, progress would be to significantly reduce or eliminate BPD symptoms - largely accomplished - and improve intimacy - realistically unattainable at what one would consider decent levels - so as I wrote in my other thread, it's simply biding time till the last tuition check clears. 

Emotional fulfillment is nice, don't get it wrong, but as I said, in my case not attainable without jeopardizing other goals with higher priorities. Even if it was attainable, I doubt it would change me to be a more emotional person. That train left decades ago by my choice.

I like to depend on nobody. If others depend on me I will do my best and then some to deliver if it is part of what I need to do. But parenting an emotionally fragile spouse is not what I signed up to do, especially if there is little interest to seek outside help or to change in general. 

Me and my wife were "strangers in a strange land" mode and needed the support of a relationship so this worked back then. But as we progressed we were two individuals who would not give up their own persona for a merged one. Maybe we are too stubborn, maybe we are too selfish, or maybe we come from places where the urgency of typical human needs of food and shelter dwarfs the need for emotional fulfillment...


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

My ex husband tried the parenting role with me. It made things worse. The only thing that helped me was practicing mindfulness,writing my thoughts,therapy,getting older,and getting the f*ck away from people who constantly treated me like a helpless child in need of direction and a loving pat on the head. 

In my sweet husband I have a real partner.An equal who treats me like an adult. If I slip and meltdown,he does what he should and walks away from me until I get my head on straight again.if he was supportive and loving during those times I would not be able to control myself from playing the victim card and running all over him. He would be made to feel like scum. I'm glad he walks away from me the once in a blue moon that a meltdown or regression may occur. My episodes and meltdowns went from daily w my ex to barely once a year now. 

If my husband began taking on a parental therapy role I would leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Mindfulness is the key here as well as discussion of steps to take - DIY CBT :lol: - and so on. 

Just this weekend we had two nice episodes where treating someone as an equal is preferred to parenting them. The good Dr. has an aversion to using the dishwasher for fear "it will break" and as a result the poor Bosch unit sees less action than an LD marooned on a remote island. A dozen years later the thing died costing us $400 in repairs. Two months after our rear projection TV (dinosaur) died for the same reason. 

The parenting approach would be to pull rank and use the things as intended. Instead I took hours to explain why they died and why they should be used. I did not pull rank, I simply explained the lunacy of having to pay to fix something that broke because it was not used. Let's hope it sinks in.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Having a solid and steady routine also improves things. I think knowing what to expect from your life day after day is the biggest boost in keeping things from blowing up. I found that things were too up in the air and hectic when I was with my ex.Never knowing what was coming made things so much harder. He was home at crazy hours without talking to me about it first so I'd know what to expect. In a normal relationship that stuff would be totally fine.But when you're with a person with a PD unfortunately adjustments need to be made sometimes to make life smoother. 
We never had a plan or he'd make the plan and tell me what I was doing at the last minute. It was my fault bc I failed to realize it was the craziness that kept triggering me so it was never communicated to him in a proper way. I'd rage at him and he'd understandably not hear what I was really trying to tell him.

After leaving, I realized structure was needed until I learned to handle having things thrown at me without having an episode.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The routine part is critical, true. It gives them a chance to not worry about things as much. 

We have survived by planning ahead and playing out alternatives in our heads (dry runs) before things happen. And by prioritizing. Right now there's a pile of boxed Christmas stuff in the living room going nowhere until time is available. In the past it would cause friction but now knowing the schedule it will be there another few days without issues.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> The parenting approach would be to pull rank and use the things as intended. Instead I took hours to explain why they died and why they should be used. I did not pull rank, I simply explained the lunacy of having to pay to fix something that broke because it was not used. Let's hope it sinks in.


Explaining why something should be done a certain way is how I parent my kids.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Yesterday the social worker who handles ds's cancer treatment paperwork paid us her yearly visit. Ds has done well, so we only needed 10 minutes of a normal 30 minute visit.

I used the time remaining to ask her about BPD and the attachment parenting approach. She said these cases are very hard to work with and any approach that seemed helpful should be used.

She also commented that all people of all ages have needs, and the idea should be to meet those needs. She actually liked the idea of a spouse being very involved in the care of a person with BPD.

Interesting . . . she has five kids herself, including one with Down's syndrome.

ETA: She did tell me not to use the word parenting. She just said to call it nurturing.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

john117 said:


> The routine part is critical, true. It gives them a chance to not worry about things as much.
> 
> We have survived by planning ahead and playing out alternatives in our heads (dry runs) before things happen. And by prioritizing. Right now there's a pile of boxed Christmas stuff in the living room going nowhere until time is available. In the past it would cause friction but now knowing the schedule it will be there another few days without issues.


exactly. Eventually I was able to create my schedule in my head and it really helps to sort of say it out loud to my husband and have him acknowledge it.I have to know he's on the same page with what I've mapped in my own head.If he isn't,then we talk about which parts he'd like to change and go from there with making changes. Using the Christmas stuff as the example,I made my plan in my head "that Christmas tree is coming down on Saturday after we get groceries." then I say to him "I was thinking we could take the tree down after shopping on Saturday.Is that something you're ok with or were you hoping to plan other things?" If he disagrees,he will tell me at that time instead of waiting until Saturday morning to tell me our whole day has changed. 

It goes such a long way for keeping trust and peace in the home. He doesn't seem to mind at all. I think it's because he is very routine and plan oriented also. He gets a little wonky if sudden changes occur too sometimes.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> She said these cases are very hard to work with and any approach that seemed helpful should be used.The things that are detrimental to the non should not be used,IMHO as a BPDer.
> 
> She also commented that all people of all ages have needs, and the idea should be to meet those needs. She actually liked the idea of a spouse being very involved in the care of a person with BPD.Yes,meeting needs is good.Attempting to meet the vast and often endless black hole of needs most BPDers have is not only unhealthy,it's not possible and it's dangerous to try. First they have to learn which needs are necessity and which needs are only there bc they have a PD.Some never get to that point so it's a constant loop of the BPDer being the victim bc their partner just never meets their needs in their mind.No one ever comes through consistently.So on that day the spouse is loved deeply.The next day the spouse might somehow fail the BPDer.Then the spouse is hated deeply until the cycle starts again.
> 
> Interesting . . . she has five kids herself, including one with Down's syndrome.I'm not sure how the 5 children including the special needs child relates to therapy for a BPDer. That's partly why so many BPDers fail to get the skills and education and therapy they need in order to improve.You have any therapist and social worker running around throwing out suggestions based on their experience with nons and children.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Are the pros having much success? What do you have to look forward to with their approach?
> 
> Look, I don't mean to sound sarcastic and disrespectful. But the little I have read about guys with BPD wives, well, they all just sound so depressed, so worn out. If I were a guy with a BPD wife, I think I would consider something outside the mainstream.eh,you'd have to talk to my husband then.He's delighted with having me as his wife. He's equally happy that he didn't have me when I was in my worst years though
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Okay, thanks for your thoughts, SB.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

ScarletBegonias has an actual diagnosis of BPD. I don't think she'd mind me saying that as she's been quite open about it on TAM. She has worked very hard to understand and heal herself, and is very articulate about her struggles and what does and doesn't help.

I would think she has more expertise than an oncology nurse, no matter how many children said nurse has. What's the significance of one of her children having Down Syndrome? Are you saying that's comparable to a spouse with BPD in some way?

So I think your last post was dismissive. Here is a person who is living the exact situation you describe - being a married woman with BPD - and she's telling you the approach wouldn't help her and would be dangerous to her partner. I think that deserves more consideration than 'thank you for your thoughts'.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SB, you did a great job explaining much about living with BPD. 

I saw that DID blog and thought it could apply to BPD, too. But everyone is pretty much against it here, and I am tired of trying to argue for attachment theory in relation to BPD. 

I really hope that the folks with BPD get the help they need, and that they have adequate support.

I think I will just bow out of this discussion now. It was just an idea, anyway.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

No worries,I'm not in a position where I need the validation. If parental attachment therapy done by the spouse works for you then keep up the good work. As a borderline I feel a responsibility to point out the potential dangers it can inflict upon the non and the possible failures that can occur. Pointing out failures and dangers doesn't mean I'm picking apart your theories or belittling your thoughts. If you don't know much about borderlines and have never experienced one then it's tough to really give solid views. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You're right, it is. And this is just an idea that I picked up from somewhere else that I thought could be helpful. And every time I brought it up, I was told it was not good. So I decided to drop it.

It sounds like you have done very well, and I can see why you have strong opinions on it. I just don't know what to say anymore. I think attachment theory holds a lot of possibility for use in treatment. I mentioned it to my therapist today, and she was kind of intrigued by how it is being used, too.

But I sense a resistance, and I do not have the background to do anything more than offer an idea. So I am just dropping it.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

If the therapist is one versed in treating borderlines I'm very surprised she would entertain the idea. I suppose it's possible she didn't want to risk invalidating the ideas of a patient but otherwise it's puzzling how she would be intrigued.

I suppose I'm having trouble understanding why you're interested unless you're a borderline,related to one,or married to one...

It's a sticky PD and even the most educated and experienced professionals have trouble with it. I guess that's why it's hard to understand the interest in it unless you have a personal stake in helping BPDers improve. 

The resistance isn't really resistance.Most people entrenched in the world of a borderline want to make sure the nons get information that will help them,not potentially hurt them. 

Anyway,I don't want to be taken as a bully so I won't continue discussing it. It's obvious you're very sensitive about your theory and I can appreciate that. Take care.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SB, let's not end on a bad note.

I don't have BPD. The therapist and I talked today, and she told me, no way, I do not have it. I could ask her next time if she has a definite opinion on how attachment theory would work. She definitely works with them.

I used attachment parenting with my children. When I saw that man using it with his DID wife, I was intrigued that it could be used with adults. Then, when he said he met with resistance from the mental health community, despite his results, I was further intrigued. Why argue with results?

For whatever reason, I thought it was exciting that something simple and cheap could be used to help people.

But it was only an idea. I don't have any more than that to back it up. And it is clear there is resistance. So, with nothing more than an idea, I don't know what else to say.

You have your experience. That is more than I have. You have done well, and I don't really know what more to say than congratulations, and best wishes.

And I don't think you are a bully. You are informing the world about your experience, and that can only be good. Thank you.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

JLD, nothing wrong with bringing up ideas for discussion and exploration, even if people disagree. I hope you won't let anyone here bully you or intimidate you. I wish we had more people like you on TAM and in the world.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> JLD, nothing wrong with bringing up ideas for discussion and exploration, even if people disagree. I hope you won't let anyone here bully you or intimidate you. I wish we had more people like you on TAM and in the world.


You are a sweetheart, soulpotato. But I have limited energy, lol. 

Keep in touch.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

jld said:


> Per our last exchange, i think we agree. The therapist can be a guide, but the SO can play an incredibly supportive role as the person with the most invested in the BPD woman.
> 
> Again, people are hung up on the parenting word, without looking at its meaning here: loving, firm support from an invested source.


Sorry, I have trouble rolling up all my thoughts into one cohesive paragraph.  I agree with some elements, and have reservations about others. Based on my own experiences and much reading, I think both a qualified therapist and a supportive partner/spouse (if the BPDer has a partner/spouse) are vital. I think the spouse/partner provides a fixed, safe point that is very important to have in the BPDer's world.

I agree that people are getting hung up on the word(s), but I also understand why the concept is alarming to them. I can definitely completely agree with the reframed meaning/idea, though.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

soulpotato said:


> Sorry, I have trouble rolling up all my thoughts into one cohesive paragraph.  I agree with some elements, and have reservations about others. Based on my own experiences and much reading, I think both a qualified therapist and a supportive partner/spouse (if the BPDer has a partner/spouse) are vital. I think the spouse/partner provides a fixed, safe point that is very important to have in the BPDer's world.
> 
> I agree that people are getting hung up on the word(s), but I also understand why the concept is alarming to them. I can definitely completely agree with the reframed meaning/idea, though.


Yeah, the social worker I talked with yesterday said, "Don't use that word. Use nurturer instead." There is prejudice with words, I guess.

I thought it was hopeful, this approach. It just seemed so healing. I did not realize there would be such resistance. But the guy from that site said the same thing. So now he just does it, benefits from the results, and doesn't argue with people.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

jld said:


> I saw that DID blog and thought it could apply to BPD, too. But everyone is pretty much against it here, and I am tired of trying to argue for attachment theory in relation to BPD.
> 
> I really hope that the folks with BPD get the help they need, and that they have adequate support.
> 
> I think I will just bow out of this discussion now. It was just an idea, anyway.


On another note, I think having a secure attachment style modeled (for the BPDer) can be very helpful, even if it doesn't cause an instant or dramatic change/response. It provides something different from what the BPDer is accustomed to, gets the wheels turning. At least, I've found it to be helpful.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It helps some, assuming the BPD makes an effort to show appreciation or even reciprocate. 

If the non busts his tail and the BPD simply takes takes takes, it's not viable long term.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Quite true, John. It depends on what sort of person your BPDer is.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

@jld
Y'know - this is exactly the thing that raises red flags.

See, I wouldn't walk out of the room when someone was angry at me. I'd walk out if:
(a) they were screaming obscenities
(b) throwing things
(c) assaulting me
(d) looping endlessly while criticizing me abusively
(e) behaving threateningly with deadly weapons
(f) insisting on talking until 4 AM on a workday

And, in my experience, my wife enjoys those episodes because they let her release stress. So, staying results in gradual escalation of the behaviors. For that portion, harshness is required. Tried it - staying for the sort of nonsense made her sicker.

Besides, experiencing that sort of stuff is unpleasant and something I'm not willing to deal with.

Anyways, AFAIK, most of the people married to BPDs here have experienced similar behavior or markedly worse - so the whole attachment parenting thing makes them really nervous.

I think there's some merit in your suggestion - in that a secure, welcoming environment is probably going to make living with a BPD easier and probably tend to reinforce BPD behaviors less. (So, eg, maybe not a good idea to threaten divorce unless you're actually leaving.) Still, boundaries are really important. My wife learned a lot from her time in jail, and from beating herself black and blue to deal with abandonment fears, et cetera.

--Argyle


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I just read through your thread, argyle. You have been through a lot. And your wife has been through even more. My goodness.

So she is from an abusive family in a perhaps abusive culture, and she has autism. Again, my goodness. Three strikes against her from the start.

What I have read about BPD indicates that clear, enforced boundaries are essential. And you really have done your best to provide a mild, stable environment.

You must be a very patient person.

It sounds like living with your wife, in some ways, is like having a special needs child. Is that a fair description?

You need things very structured, yet caring, and a lot of attention needs to be available. And in there you have to be cared for, too. 

What a challenge, argyle.

Do you think there is a way to reduce the beating of herself? Does her therapist have any suggestions for that? That is just so sad to me.

I do hope things continue to improve with your wife.


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...not really...y'ever met one of those people who overspecializes and is obviously a nightmare to live with? On one hand, she's demonstrably capable of starting and running a business. On the other, there's a part of her that just stopped learning around age 14. And then this inconsistent cycling between brilliance and extreme fragility and near idiocy and insecurity. And, she'll fail to pick up rotting food or bathe, but she'll also stick to therapy for three years even though she's terrified.

...I suspect the self-harm was a phase. She started out harming people, decided that she'd rather avoid jail, and moved onto self-harm. Then, she learned that bruises hurt, so she moved onto breaking things, but is noticing that I only buy plastic replacement dishes... So now, she's opting for sobbing and asking for a hug. I can handle that.

..y'know, feedback loops work. I could have been sympathetic. Instead, I just told her that it looked like that hurt and went about my day. Within half a week, she was going outside on her own, aching, and feeling really humiliated. The next incident involved not punching herself in the face. The next one involved thrashing on the floor... The next involved resolving to request a prescription for Valium. People do learn from consequences. 

If anything, the hardest portion is the overstimulation issues. When too much is going on, she'll reliably, eg, spill boiling water on herself. Not much to do about that.

--Argyle

--Argyle


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...y'know...
...day 1: boiling water spilled on face
...day 2: pressure bandage from broken glass while cooking
...day 3: locked out of house in subzero weather

...glah...scares me sometimes. Oh well. People heal.

--Argyle


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

How frightening, argyle. What do you think would be helpful?


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

I kind of have a handle on the whole mental illness thing. Boundaries, kindness, drugs, and DBT therapy all help.

I kind of have a handle on the whole autism thing. Simplicity, sensory filtering, patience all help.

The whole 'absent-minded', clumsy thing is actually a fairly common autism comorbidity. (there's some long weird word for it...) I don't have a handle on it, beyond environmental changes. We live in an area with excellent public transportation, so she's not driving anymore. That helps reduce the risk of imminent death. Having backup people around who can help out if she hurts herself would also be wise. However, overall, I think the burns, cuts, and bruises are just the price of my wife living a reasonably normal life. So, I should just accept them. Scares me though.

--Argyle


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The important thing is that she accepts the situation and for the most part cooperates. If she were not willing to go along things would likely be different. 

Was she always aware of the differences in her behavior? My wife - despite strong indications to the contrary and boundaries - seems to think she's as standard issue middle age as they get..


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

argyle, you ever listen to Moth Radio? There was an episode this morning with a guy whose wife developed a severe mental illness. It was riveting. Don't know if it would upset you or not, but if not, it was fascinating. It's the surfer guy.
Cops, Dumpster Diving and Mental Illness | The Moth


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## argyle (May 27, 2011)

...Moth Radio....I'll look into it.

...she was always terribly aware - on some level. It is hard to live without being aware of your problems. And also hard to live knowing that you're actually broken in some fashion. She just spent a lot of years insisting that she was perfectly normal and avoiding dealing with her issues by projecting them onto other people. Over, and over, and over again.

...it probably helped that her parents were into the whole therapy scene. Albeit, it probably hurt that they're strict Freudians.

...the thing that really helped was exposure to a bunch of autistic and mildly autistic people. She got to put a name on her problems - and see herself in relationship to other people. That, and I went through a bunch of books and listed out 'unusual needs' and solutions that came up... She knew her needs, just had trouble explaining them in a way that made sense to me. For example, she's bad at multitasking...so she'd go into the kitchen...melt down...and start screaming over my lack of empathy making me incapable of realizing that no one can watch a pot and chop onions. Now, she usually says...'please help, I'm having trouble multitasking.' 

Or...child-rearing...she used to have meltdowns whenever I left out children unattended for more than 30 seconds. Our last discussion involved acknowledging that she was different from most other children. With most kids, boredom is probably healthy - they'll go somewhere and play - and develop their imaginations. Her parents had lots of young children - so there was a lot of boredom in her life - but - she wasn't imaginative - so she mostly sat in the corner. Some books indicate that autistic chlldren develop better with lots of interaction to teach social skills...and it seems she has a visceral reaction to her childhood neglect...


--Argyle


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