# Thoughts or comments



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

So, my wife and I still seem to be living around each other without really trying to 'BE' with each other. Wanted to have "the talk" with her tonight, but she conveniently stayed away from me, with our oldest, until she was falling asleep.

So I wrote her this letter, can people tell me what they think? Should I email her or what?



_I waited up last night for you to come in, I wanted to have this conversation in person, but you never came in. And then when you did, you immediately went to sleep.

When we went away, you said that maybe you needed to see a counselor by yourself and I said that I thought you did need to, have you looked into it? It has been a year since you decided that we were done having sex. And I am more hurt with each passing day. For you it is nothing, to me it is everything. To me, sex and intimacy are part and parcel of being married. But you have taken both of those away from me. I had no say in it. We are married in name only. I want to be your husband, not your brother! Every day you use words to tell me that you love me, but those words are no different than the words you say to the kids or your family to tell them that you love them. I am hurting. And I do not know any other way to say it. Like this weekend when you said that my teasing BOY was "undoing" all of Saturday! Like punishment for what I did means that you withhold yourself! Love is not conditional and part of a marital love is that sex which you are all too ready to use as a weapon. Even this morning, when you were furious at me for waking you up, I realized that is how I spend every waking moment: afraid that I will do something to lose what little bit of love you have for me. And it is killing me. It is abuse, YYYY, mental abuse. Every day, I have to live with not knowing if you are going to love me anymore. And part of that insecurity is because you took away intimacy and sex.

If you want to save what is left of our marriage, and to be very honest it is slipping away a little more every day, then you need to see someone to help you figure out how to be interested in me. Because with each day, I resent you more and more, YYY. I said it back in May that I do not want to hate you and I do not want you to hate me. But with each day that you pretend to love me, and that is what it feels like to me, I resent you more and more. I feel used; why are you here because it sure is not because you want to be with me? I feel like all I am good for is giving you trips to places. Like when we went to Orlando. You were happy to be there, but I felt like you would have been just as content if I was not there. This is not a way for either of us to live. And now you want a cruise!!!! But I am not doing it! It just makes me madder because I "know" that I will spend $$$$ and we will go and you will have a great time and yet again you will shy away from any touch from me, you will not give me the one thing I need: an intimate and full love. And I will walk away more hurt than before. I want to be with you, and I really cannot understand how you can say you love me in one breath and then in the very next say that you have no desire. It hurts and it is a cancer to this marriage.

So here it is, an ultimatum. And I know not to give one unless you plan on following through. But if you want to find a way to save our marriage, you need to woo me. You need to make me feel wanted and desired. And that means YOU finding help for you. You need to find why it is that you do not desire me. Do that and you may yet keep me. But do not, and I will be gone. I will stay for the rest of the holidays, but in January, should you not take steps to fix the issues in you that I have no way of fixing, I will leave. I will make sure you have money for food, car, rent, etc. But I will be done. I will move out after my trip for work and we will be over before either of us hates the other.

XXXX _


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think you should just move out with out the letter.

A year since she summarily decided no more sex? And you put up with it?


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

That's just it: a part of me still loves her, even though I get soooo angry inside. We are Christians and she just up and decided she did not feel like it anymore. And she knows that I am not going to step out on her. Does she really not see the sex and intimacy as part of love? Is it actually possible? I am so afraid that if I give her the ultimatum that she will tell me to get the [email protected]#[email protected] out! And it kills me because of that part that still loves her. Quite frankly I am a screwed up mess.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

crushedandbroken said:


> That's just it: a part of me still loves her, even though I get soooo angry inside. We are Christians and she just up and decided she did not feel like it anymore. And she knows that I am not going to step out on her. Does she really not see the sex and intimacy as part of love? Is it actually possible? I am so afraid that if I give her the ultimatum that she will tell me to get the [email protected]#[email protected] out! And it kills me because of that part that still loves her. Quite frankly I am a screwed up mess.


Well then it appears only one of you is actually a Christian. 

I'm sorry that sounded so glib, but it don't see what Christianity has to do with your suffering, unless you're trying to emulate Christ or something.

You and you wife entered into marriage, however many years ago and marriage means sex. She decided to end the marriage a year ago without so much as a by your leave. Last year is when you had the chance to talk this out. 

Now your only option is to walk out. If she wants to stay married, she needs to come to terms with sex being a part of marriage and a very important part of your life! THEN you two MIGHT be able to work things out. 

A woman who makes a decision like that, clearly has zero respect for her husband, is selfish, and doesn't care how it might make you suffer.

And yet you love her, beyond all reason, beyond any reason at all really.

She's not the one who needs therapy. You're the one who needs therapy so you can come to understand why your thoughts, desires, wishes and wants are of such little value to yourself that you can love a woman who brings you pain? I just don't get it?


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I would take out the two places where you said she needs to go to therapy. I think you are likely right, that she does need to go to therapy - however, you cannot demand that someone goes to therapy. Therapy is difficult and making yourself be honest is difficult and making yourself vulnerable is difficult. This needs to be done of her own free will - because SHE think it's time to see a counselor, not because you are "making" her.

Instead of the paragraph about the trips and such I would instead detail and focus on how the lack of intimacy has hurt you. Have you suffered at work? Your confidence? Has there been a decline in how you feel about yourself? Has there been a decline in your feelings for her? I think these things are important to document because a non sexual spouse might easily assume that this is all no big deal.

Please do NOT make that ultimatum unless you are prepared to follow through. That is only one month from now. Really think about if you are giving her the ultimatum because you think it will scare her into action or if you are really going to move out in one months time. 

Also, one month is not enough for true change to occur. Anyone can shape up for a month - so please think again about this time frame. This also has to be measurable because her idea of wooing and romance is likely much different than what you are actually asking for.

Now, personally, I feel all non-sexual spouses should be divorced over this. I'm totally on your side here. Don't mistake my feedback as invalidation of your feelings.


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Crushed I am just sad for you reading this. You and I both know that this is not the Christian way in marriage. What does your pastor say? I personally like your letter but I like Anon's strategy even better. There is no wake up call stronger than an Adios right before the holiday season. THAT is sending a message. Let her know you will give her till the New Year to marinade on her new life alone and if she does not come around then just file.


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Oh, and I do agree with Anon that you would likely benefit from therapy. Perhaps the act of you going to therapy will be enough to force her hand because with therapy comes change and changing her situation is going to be a threat. She's going to resist you going to therapy, I'm going to bet, because she's going to assume your therapist is going to tell you to leave her. (Which a good therapist wouldn't, but still.)


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

Yeah, actually I am serious about January. My work takes me out of town. So lots of "opportunity" to cheat if I wanted to, but I do not want other women, I want her. So my schedule next year has me out of town all of January. I had actually, coming back from visiting family where it kind of all hit that this was then 'new' us, decided to tell her that I was not going up with them for the holidays in a few weeks. I was supposed to fly up after I got off work and then have 2 weeks there. She suddenly wanted to make it a week and go on a cruise because she had always wanted to go on a cruise. My first thought was I'll be [email protected] if I am paying that much money for you to treat me like crap, you can do that here for free. 

As for Anon thinking I am pathetic, yeah I would agree. She asked last month why I had stayed for as long as I had. And it was because I loved her. And I always thought she would change back into the woman that I dated. The one who wanted to tear my clothes off and would wake me to make love in the middle of the night. That woman died as soon as I put the engagement ring on her hand. And in two decades she NEVER made love to me on any holiday, or anniversary, or birthday or anything like that. Am I depressed? Absolutely. I feel like I have 'wasted' my life. And I feel like the words of George Straits song "I hate everything" where he says "if it weren't for my two kids I would hate my ex-wife". It is only because of our kids that there is anything left I think. If it was not for them, I would probably end this life. And leaving means losing them. So… yeah, my life sucks.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

No your life doesn't suck! Your ability to suffer is far too high. Your optimism was completely unfounded.

Somewhere along the way you lost sight of the dynamic wonderful man inside and became something else entirely. Once you find that man again, your life will become the brilliant balanced loving life you were always meant to have.

Your wife deceived you, willingly duped you. She's a horrible person you don't deserve to be treated that way. Stand up for yourself and find a woman who would be thrilled to have such a dedicated loyal man by her side!


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

You aren't pathetic. Maybe, like lots of us here, a romantic that hopes the person you fell in love with can appear. It is the same person, of course, so certainly that part of them has to be in there somewhere. I totally get why people stay as long as they do. It's hope that change will occur. It's the hard cold facts of having to tell your kids dad isn't going to live with them anymore. It's the fear of getting back in the single world and feeling more alone than you do now.


----------



## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

Crushed, I feel for you. Anon Pink is right with her comment re Christianity.
Whilst I am a believer, I am not 'devoted'. However I do know that we all have the right to be happy. 

In the eyes of God and the law, marriage is a deal, a contract. You both agree and accept certain 'conditions'....'to love and to cherish in sickness and in health'...'with my body I thee honour' etc. 

That last bit means that neither will go over the side, but neither does it mean that you will not share your body with your spouse. 

Your wife is breaking her marriage vows in denying you sex.

One of the ten commandments is 'Thou shalt not steal'...yup, right. 
What about a down and out who steals a loaf of bread because he is hungry? Will God regard him as guilty as the person who goes into an Apple store and steals an Iphone5?....

Crushed - you are being walked all over and treated like ****. Leave now....go. Its your life...a life that God gave YOU. Don't waste it.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Well then it appears only one of you is actually a Christian.
> 
> I'm sorry that sounded so glib, but it don't see what Christianity has to do with your suffering, unless you're trying to emulate Christ or something.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Although I like your letter, I don't believe it will have the desired impact on your W's selfish behaviour.

Being a Christian should not mean allowing yourself to become a martyr to your W's selfish and hurtful behaviour.


----------



## Happyquest (Apr 21, 2009)

"The problem is all inside your head", she said to me 
The answer is easy if you take it logically 
I'd like to help you in your struggle to be free 
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover 

She said it's really not my habit to intrude 
Furthermore, I hope my meaning won't be lost or misconstrued 
But I'll repeat myself, at the risk of being crude 
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover 
Fifty ways to leave your lover 

You just slip out the back, Jack 
Make a new plan, Stan 
You don't need to be coy, Roy 
Just get yourself free 
Hop on the bus, Gus 
You don't need to discuss much 
Just drop off the key, Lee 
And get yourself free 

Ooo slip out the back, Jack 
Make a new plan, Stan 
You don't need to be coy, Roy 
Just listen to me 
Hop on the bus, Gus 
You don't need to discuss much 
Just drop off the key, Lee 
And get yourself free 

She said it grieves me so to see you in such pain 
I wish there was something I could do to make you smile again 
I said I appreciate that and would you please explain 
About the fifty ways 

She said why don't we both just sleep on it tonight 
And I believe in the morning you'll begin to see the light 
And then she kissed me and I realized she probably was right 
There must be fifty ways to leave your lover 
Fifty ways to leave your lover 

You just slip out the back, Jack 
Make a new plan, Stan 
You don't need to be coy, Roy 
Just get yourself free 
Hop on the bus, Gus 
You don't need to discuss much 
Just drop off the key, Lee 
And get yourself free 

Slip out the back, Jack 
Make a new plan, Stan 
You don't need to be coy, Roy 
Just listen to me 
Hop on the bus, Gus 
You don't need to discuss much 
Just drop off the key, Lee 
And get yourself free


----------



## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

crushedandbroken said:


> Yeah, actually I am serious about January. My work takes me out of town. So lots of "opportunity" to cheat if I wanted to, but I do not want other women, I want her. So my schedule next year has me out of town all of January. I had actually, coming back from visiting family where it kind of all hit that this was then 'new' us, decided to tell her that I was not going up with them for the holidays in a few weeks. I was supposed to fly up after I got off work and then have 2 weeks there. She suddenly wanted to make it a week and go on a cruise because she had always wanted to go on a cruise. My first thought was I'll be [email protected] if I am paying that much money for you to treat me like crap, you can do that here for free.
> 
> As for Anon thinking I am pathetic, yeah I would agree. She asked last month why I had stayed for as long as I had. And it was because I loved her. And I always thought she would change back into the woman that I dated. *The one who wanted to tear my clothes off and would wake me to make love in the middle of the night. That woman died as soon as I put the engagement ring on her hand.* And in two decades she NEVER made love to me on any holiday, or anniversary, or birthday or anything like that. Am I depressed? Absolutely. I feel like I have 'wasted' my life. And I feel like the words of George Straits song "I hate everything" where he says "if it weren't for my two kids I would hate my ex-wife". It is only because of our kids that there is anything left I think. If it was not for them, I would probably end this life. And leaving means losing them. So… yeah, my life sucks.


Crushed, I'm sorry to see you here under such troubling times, but I have to ask this question. You profess to be a Christian so you have this view about not wanting to divorce. But I find it interesting that you had no problems screwing each others brains out while you two were dating.

I guess the question becomes: Is it because of your Christian faith that you don't want to divorce her or is it because of some other reason. My hunch is there is another reason why you don't want to let her go. My guess is that you have a strong attachment because she was your first and that you are afraid of going back into the dating scene.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't think the letter will work (i.e. get your wife sexual)...

Your letter is not "one" talk or one discussion but it is your belief system and your life plan. It should be constantly there in your marriage and spoken about in a variety of ways.

First thought: Hoops.... You MUST stop jumping through your wife's hoops. And do not tolerate her disrespect when she gives them to you. 

Second thought: You feel love through sex. Your wife does not. This is natural. What is your wife's equivalent of sex? You need to figure that out and meet her needs in the way she needs them (just as you are seeking her to do with you).

Third thought: if you want to write a letter, here is I think a better letter:

It has been a year since you decided that we were done having sex. For you it is nothing, to me it is everything. A man's main emotional need in marriage is sex and intimacy. A marriage is a sexual relationship. Without sex, there is no marriage. A man feels love through acts and not words. Love is not conditional and part of a marital love is that sex. I belive you are withholding sex to hurt me on purpose. But why? That is what I need from you. Why am I worthy of your anger and purposeful hurt?

I can only tell you this is not a marriage. I am going to be in a sexual fulfilling relationship in 2014. This is an absolute certainty. The only uncertainty is will it be with YOU my first choice or someone else. That part is up to you. I know it will take work on both our parts to get there. But you should think it over for a few days and let me know what your choice is... To work with me on fixing our marriage or accepting that I will move on.


----------



## Cyclist (Aug 22, 2012)

Sorry you are going through this. Its a bad situation.

While I applaud your letter for explaining exactly how you feel I would suggest just a couple of changes.

The tone is "go get help or I am leaving"

Maybe you could change the tone a bit to "I will do anything I can to help you get the help you need, and that we need, to make this work...."

She has to be willing and so do you to understand each other on a deeper level. This is probably not just about sex, but some other underlying issues that she may have a very difficult time discussing with you or anybody.

I know your disgusted by the entire situation and I do not blame you as you feel like you are being used. Its just my humble opinion that you might get further with less demands and more teamwork.

Good luck and I wish you the best


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

The only way I see to achieve your deepest desires in this , is to LEAVE THIS WOMAN...test her reactions to your walking out of her life.... she is emotionally abusing you, she has showed she has no sense of empathy or care for you, SHE HAS mercilessly broken your wedding vows.. shame on her... you deserve so much better..

I understand you love her (though I fail to see how resentment has not eaten you alive in all this time personally)... do you want to remain with a women devoid of love and caring for you, for your emotional and physical needs as a man, as a husband... 

If you are not ready to walk out that door.. at the very least do "*the 180*" (will do a post).... this should grad her attention.... your letter, although it would move a woman like myself... I do not believe it will move a woman like your wife...she is numb to you -for whatever reason, she has lost attraction, desire, caring.. I don't know.. resentment has built on her behalf, she blames you for ________?? Can you explain more of your marital issues .....how was it in your earlier years, what has happened ?

The problem here is...she knows you are *a sure thing*, a good christian man who will never walk out on her..... so she has taken advantage of you FOR YEARS...you are too much of a "NICE Guy"... she may have even lost some respect for you...

Sometimes we need to hit the gutter in life, and realize what we stand to loose... kinda like that song "*Don't know what you got, till it's gone*"... this realization can be very powerful for some, life changing even.

If you want to show her how a sexless marriage feels, what you feel has been lost....this write up captures this..

This is What a Sexless Marriage Feels Like - And yet - Open Salon


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Here is a thread I found on google with the list spelled out (keep in mind some of this is referring to infidelity ), >>



> Plan A vs. 180 Plan - Marriage Builders® Forums
> 
> 180
> 
> ...


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

The sexual being who retired the moment you married her:



> *That woman died as soon as I put the engagement ring on her hand. And in two decades she NEVER made love to me on any holiday, or anniversary, or birthday or anything like that. Am I depressed? Absolutely. I feel like I have 'wasted' my life.*


There is no point in giving her that letter. It is a great letter but words are dry. The 180 is a good start.

Your reasoning about the cost divorce – that you must give up your children if you split – is not logical. If you divorce, seek as much physical custody as you can. Can you put a support network in place? Do not leave. If you divorce, you split your assets. You don't have to leave the family home. Why? Can she afford it on her own?

By allowing your life to ruined by a selfish Christian woman you are harming your children. They will see dad as a pvssy whipped man. That is not a positive image to impart to them. Why would submit yourself to a sexless, affectionless marriage for decades?

Clearly once you file for divorce and 180 your wife may discover lust. Sadly it may be the lust of a prostitute. You need to extricate yourself ASAP from this sham marriage. How long can you go on? As you point out you don't want resentment to fester into hatred. But do you know what, there is also danger that you will feel contempt and self loathing for continuing down this dead end road.

The moment you decide not to waste your life, you'll feel so much better. Your wife will be jealous. For her to feel good she has to take trips and torture you. For you to feel good you must let go of the tormentor and live life.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Leave religion out of it and prepare to dream team her into oblivion. Before a more concrete plan is formulated what is the financial picture, the children picture, and the divorce state laws where you live? 

I also would not bother with a somber letter filled with generalities. I would place two dates in the calendar. January to start intensive MC and IC and track progress for X months not more than six. After June for example if no significant process is done you're gone with as little financial support as you can get away with.

Try to not overplay the emotional connection fluff - to her it is - but emphasize the abuse part in very strong words.


----------



## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

(1 Corinthians 7:2-5) The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jorgegene said:


> *(1 Corinthians 7:2-5) * The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again *so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.*


When I hear this scripture, although I agree with it's premise, there is one thing that doesn't sit well with me, reasoning this out.... the blaming of  on the temptation...that is a bit too easy...why is HE conveniently the scapegoat...while this wife gets a pass... 

No... the rejecting cold callous withholding spouse is the cause of any temptation that comes...

Beautiful meaning behind these words though, at least I feel so...


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, may have screwed up but she sent a text this am saying she was sorry for yesterday and a lot of other stuff and that she loved me. I answered back that those were just words and that I feel like a battered wife. She hurts me, comes apologizes and I come running back. That was several hours ago and nary a response from her. Maybe she said to heck with me. Just feeds my self image that I am wothless, unwanted and unloveable. I am beginning to see where she has been abusing me for years. I get up in the morning and tip toe around the house, I get dressed in the dark. All because I am afraid she will be mad if I wake her up. I justify it because "she is not a morning person" and I try to explain it away. This is just one of hundreds of things I do every day. I am always on edge about how she will react. I am the one she fusses at because she knows I will take it. Even there I feel like I have to justify her actions and that somehow I am wrong for feeling like I do.

as for how we can say we are Christians but had sex before marriage, because we were not Christians then. Christianity came later.

I called my companies eap plan, waiting for the counselor they recommended to call me back. Thehardest part was abmitting to them that I have thought seriously of hurting myself. At least then the pain would be over and I really do not feel like anyone would miss me. Sorry for the long, rambling post but it is where I am at.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Everybody has a self worth that is independent of other people and their perceptions. Life is not a single issue political race.

My biggest achievement is that I arrived in the USA 30 years ago with the proverbial suitcase and made a successful career out of my dream. I have two very bright kids that I raised largely alone. Nobody can take those away. In OP's case he has similar achievements as does everyone else that navigates life.

Focus on your positives, get the support you need, and dream team her once all else has been tried. Simple recipe. Emotions are nice but at some point pragmatism wins over emotions any time. If she brings something to the marriage consider that just to be fair, but if what she brings is less than the toll she takes that's your answer right there.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

If you must stay with this woman, you need to radically change the way you deal with her.. I have 3 book suggestions for you....


*1. *  No More Mr. Nice Guy! : Robert A. Glover: Books


> Here is a list of NICE GUY Characteristics - Most guys have a few of these, but the headed for doormat status "NICE guys"- posses these in abundance . The book has more detail to each little item of coarse.
> 
> 
> Nice Guys are Givers
> ...


There is problems with each one of those -*the motivation behind the doing is the issue.* What is happening is -- These men have been conditioned to believe that if they are "NICE" they will be loved, get their needs met and have a smooth life. 

Here is the "not-so nice" traits of Nice Guys ...



> Nice guys can be Dishonest, secretive, compartmentalized, manipulative, controlling, they give to get, passive aggressive, some are full of rage, additive, have difficulty setting boundaries, frequently isolated, often attracted to people & situations that need fixing, frequently have problems in intimate relationships, have issues with sexuality, usually only relatively successful .


Of course those are not true for every Nice guy, my husband fit 4 of those plus a few we considered halfs in his case. 

Good book, it will make many things clear to you to help you on your way to win back her RESPECT....and this should lead to sexual attraction...

*2. * The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011: Athol Kay: Books



> The opening covers the underlying ancient "hard-wired" biological and modern social reasons women find men attractive. Athol pulls no punches here and the sexual motivations of women are laid bare. Though rather than framing women as sexually devious and seeking to advantage themselves over men, he explains how their sexual behavior is entirely rational in nature and once understood as such, it becomes very useful information.
> 
> The second part of the book takes the framework developed in the first part and offers a wealth of tools to put it to practical use. The most important tool is The Male Action Plan, which charges the husband with the task of becoming a better, sexier man and thereby leveraging his increased attractiveness for a better sex life with his wife. As Athol says, "whoever is the most attractive in the relationship is in charge."
> 
> The third part of the book is a treasure trove of playful sexy and romantic moves women will find charming and engaging. It's clear that Athol could have a harem of young ladies, but here he displays an endless variety of playful instigation to continually charm just one. The final section is a catchall of serious topics on what not to do, how to choose a wife, the current state of marriage law and a crushingly simple approach to dealing with being cheated on.


*3. * This book is written by Christian authors and VERY GOOD... she has been slaughtering your Marital boundaries...and you need to understand HOW - so you won't allow it anymore...to bring about change...

Boundaries in Marriage: Henry Cloud, John Townsend:: Books



> Learn when to say yes and when to say no--to your spouse and to others--to make the most of your marriage Only when a husband and wife know and respect each other's needs, choices, and freedom can they give themselves freely and lovingly to one another.
> 
> Boundaries are the 'property lines' that define and protect husbands and wives as individuals. Once they are in place, a good marriage can become better, and a less-than-satisfying one can even be saved. Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend, counselors and authors of the award-winning best-seller Boundaries, show couples how to apply the 10 laws of boundaries that can make a real difference in relationships.
> 
> ...


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

crushedandbroken said:


> Well, may have screwed up but she sent a text this am saying she was sorry for yesterday and a lot of other stuff and that she loved me. I answered back that those were just words and that I feel like a battered wife. She hurts me, comes apologizes and I come running back. That was several hours ago and nary a response from her. Maybe she said to heck with me. Just feeds my self image that I am wothless, unwanted and unloveable. I am beginning to see where she has been abusing me for years. I get up in the morning and tip toe around the house, I get dressed in the dark. All because I am afraid she will be mad if I wake her up. I justify it because "she is not a morning person" and I try to explain it away. This is just one of hundreds of things I do every day. I am always on edge about how she will react. I am the one she fusses at because she knows I will take it. Even there I feel like I have to justify her actions and that somehow I am wrong for feeling like I do.
> 
> as for how we can say we are Christians but had sex before marriage, because we were not Christians then. Christianity came later.
> 
> I called my companies eap plan, waiting for the counselor they recommended to call me back. Thehardest part was abmitting to them that I have thought seriously of hurting myself. At least then the pain would be over and I really do not feel like anyone would miss me. Sorry for the long, rambling post but it is where I am at.


Well done Crushed! Bravo for reaching out and bravo for being honest with your EAP specialist!

I think you are right on the money. You've spent years being emotionally battered by this woman and now you have reached the end of your rope. I know this must feel positively devastating but the honest truth is, you are currently at rock bottom and the only way out is UP, my friend. You will get there, I promise!

Right now you are in an extremely vulnerable place so please please avoid burdening yourself with anything other than that which is absolutely necessary.

Necessary to eat and sleep and groom. necessary to answer the therapists phone call and make an appointment. necessary to put your time in on the job. Nothing else matters right now.

it can be so difficult to actually get that appointment when you're feeling so fragile, but hang in there! Post again and let me know how your day went?


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

She is so pissed. She was just here for a moment while dropping one daughter off while going to get other but she is definitely pissed. How she said she would be back and slammed door, I know she is going to rip into me tonight when the girls go down and tell what a sorry person I am. I am just sitting here shaking on the couch trying to keep from crying. Pathetic. I am so afraid of her, have only seen her this angry once or twice, I never should have told her how I felt. Why do I keep letting her do this to me? Maybe I should skip the appointment tommorrow. If she finds out there will be hell to pay.


----------



## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

crushedandbroken,

Most people aren't saying anything about your letter. Wow! I think it was powerful and right on target. I highly recommend you send it to her on email so there is a record of you sending it. That way she has it, and if/when you leave her, she can never deny that you told her what the problem was and gave her plenty of warning. 

Some people here said it won't do any good. That is possible, but at this point, what have you got to lose?

I do recommend cutting down the length just a bit though, maybe cut out 1/3rd of it. If she has a short attention span she might not have the patience to read through it all.


----------



## IndiaInk (Jun 13, 2012)

Firstly, letter writing is valuable, but most of the value will be found by the writer not the reader.

It's nice to be able to put words to the swirl of thoughts continuously running through your own head. And it affords one clarity.

I would not send it to her though. It won't help you get what you're seeking.

And I'd point out a few things to you:



_Love is not conditional and part of a marital love is that sex which you are all too ready to use as a weapon. _

The second part is right, marital love includes sex, the first part is wrong and it is one of the cruelest truths of humanity, but true nonetheless.

Romantic Love, despite all the lovely movies, poems and books on the subject and despite the marital vows we exchange is NOT unconditional. It is the most CONDITIONAL of all loves. That's why the divorce rate is 50%.






_
Even this morning, when you were furious at me for waking you up, I realized that is how I spend every waking moment: afraid that I will do something to lose what little bit of love you have for me. And it is killing me. It is abuse, YYYY, mental abuse. Every day, I have to live with not knowing if you are going to love me anymore. And part of that insecurity is because you took away intimacy and sex._


Be careful here, I know you want her to know how awful she makes you feel...but remember she makes you feel awful because she does not demonstrate desire and attraction for you. And you won't get these things from her in any genuine way simply by inspiring her pity.



_If you want to save what is left of our marriage, and to be very honest it is slipping away a little more every day, then you need to see someone to help you figure out how to be interested in me. 
_

Attraction is NOT a choice. She can't figure out a way to become attracted to you. You may be able to stoke her attraction flames again...but that's not a self-starting fire.

Now behavior is a choice. She could choose to sleep with you and she could choose to be more loving towards you. But that genuine, 'attraction-based' type of interest is not something she controls.



_So here it is, an ultimatum. And I know not to give one unless you plan on following through. But if you want to find a way to save our marriage, you need to woo me. You need to make me feel wanted and desired. And that means YOU finding help for you. You need to find why it is that you do not desire me. Do that and you may yet keep me. But do not, and I will be gone. I will stay for the rest of the holidays, but in January, should you not take steps to fix the issues in you that I have no way of fixing, I will leave. I will make sure you have money for food, car, rent, etc. But I will be done. I will move out after my trip for work and we will be over before either of us hates the other.
_

Giving her an ultimatum I think is fine. I would give it in person though. Because if you're really serious about it, you shouldn't feel any fear.

When you've genuinely reached 'ultimatum-type' energy regarding your marriage....the ultimatum itself is simply a truthful statement of pertinent facts and their consequences. Something like:

"I want a loving and affectionate marriage where my company is desired. I want a sexually fulfilling marriage. And I must leave this marriage if these conditions remain unsatisfied."

BUT...the BIG KEY to an ultimatum is you MUST MEAN IT. You MUST be willing to walk. Even if you love her. Even if you really really want this marriage to work out and your heart will be broken if she lets it fail. You must still be prepared to see it die rather than live like this anymore.

If you aren't prepared to mean it...DON'T GIVE IT. It's a lie then, and an ultimatum is a statement of total honesty and properly given is a powerful moment in *your own life*. It's the moment when you realize you have too much self-respect to allow yourself to be subjected to undue cruelty by another human being, regardless of your love for them--you know that YOUR OWN respect for YOU must come first or you have nothing.

(and oddly enough, when people finally find their own self-respect again....they often suddenly become more ATTRACTIVE to others around them (wives included))

Good luck!!!


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Hey, crushed, the whole problem here is that she always gets her way while your self esteem drains from your life. 

Tell her to go eff herself or just leave quietly - it doesn't matter because her being pissed at you isn't going to magically transform into marital bliss. Shes going to punch you in the face (figuratively) to get you back under control.

Maybe you SHOULD tell her you plan to divorce her. Start taking back some control of hour own.


----------



## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hang in there crushed! Maybe she is pissed but it's all good because you are sticking up for yourself. So what if she angry! You're the one who should be angry. She has not treated you with any sort of respect or love. Don't let her upset get to you, or try not to. Just keep telling your self that you have been treated horribly by her and the problem is her, not you!


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Just in case, most cellphones have voice recorders... Keep your cool and if she's not interested in listening just walk away.


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

Just keeps getting better. She is giving such a cold shoulder, I could hang meat in here. She just came in and plugged up her phone then left. So I looked to see who she texted about my text. Nobody. What was interesting was the woman I suspected her off having an affair with had no texts there. At all. Looked at cell company website and they texted ALOT last night prior to her "I'm sorry" text. Records from today are not available yet. So...wonder what was in texts she was afraid I would see.

So not only has she treated me like crud, but maybe she had no sexual needs because hers WERE being taken care of....


----------



## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

You know, if it was me, I would send the kids to the grandparents house for a few hours and sit her ass down and tell her that if she wants to play games with you and act like a cold frigid woman then fine. Tell her that from now on she will be treated like a roommate. Move her stuff in the spare room and tell her that it's her room now and the big change that comes with it.

You tell her to get a job and from this day forth she pays half of everything. House payment, car loans, insurance food, utilities, taxes and anything else that involves money. I would also let her know that from now on it's don't ask, don't tell. 

The woman is living the life of a cake eater. She puts nothing in the marriage but makes sure she gets her half at your expense. Take her name off the checking and saving accounts and tell her that if she needs money, then find a job. If not leave because she doing nothing but taking up space. 

Seriously though, the next time she leaves move her belongings in the spare room and tell her that the marital bed is off limits.

Your only other choice is filing for divorce and hand her the walking papers, but that would be too easy. I would make her earn her keep. Hand her the newspaper with the want ads as the first page and stick to it. Don't budge. 

The sad part about it is if you get any sex it will only be the kind you don't want and that's called duty sex. Pity sex or any other name you want to call it but it won't be intimate or have no feeling. Me? I would rather lock the bathroom door, get myself off rather than take pity sex. It just makes a person look pathetic and there's nothing worse than having any more of your dignity $h!t on.


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Did I read that correctly - you suspect she is having an affair with a woman?

In any case, she has no reason to be angry with you. She might be acting angry and 'how dare you' but on what grounds? Because you spoke up for yourself?

If she is having an affair, though, that is a whole different situation.


----------



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

crushedandbroken said:


> Well, may have screwed up but she sent a text this am saying she was sorry for yesterday and a lot of other stuff and that she loved me. I answered back that those were just words and that I feel like a battered wife. She hurts me, comes apologizes and I come running back. That was several hours ago and nary a response from her. Maybe she said to heck with me. Just feeds my self image that I am wothless, unwanted and unloveable. I am beginning to see where she has been abusing me for years. I get up in the morning and tip toe around the house, I get dressed in the dark. All because I am afraid she will be mad if I wake her up. I justify it because "she is not a morning person" and I try to explain it away. This is just one of hundreds of things I do every day. I am always on edge about how she will react. I am the one she fusses at because she knows I will take it. Even there I feel like I have to justify her actions and that somehow I am wrong for feeling like I do.
> 
> as for how we can say we are Christians but had sex before marriage, because we were not Christians then. Christianity came later.
> 
> I called my companies eap plan, waiting for the counselor they recommended to call me back. Thehardest part was abmitting to them that I have thought seriously of hurting myself. At least then the pain would be over and I really do not feel like anyone would miss me. Sorry for the long, rambling post but it is where I am at.


Christians are also humans and subject to their own desires. Some can over come their desires some can't. It doesn't mean they are not Christians or hypocritical. Just human. 
Hang in there.


----------



## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

crushedandbroken said:


> She is so pissed. She was just here for a moment while dropping one daughter off while going to get other but she is definitely pissed. How she said she would be back and slammed door, I know she is going to rip into me tonight when the girls go down and tell what a sorry person I am. I am just sitting here shaking on the couch trying to keep from crying. Pathetic. I am so afraid of her, have only seen her this angry once or twice, I never should have told her how I felt. Why do I keep letting her do this to me? Maybe I should skip the appointment tommorrow. If she finds out there will be hell to pay.


What can she do to you? Cut you off? Whip your azz? I think not. What can she do to you that is worse than what she has already done?


----------



## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

Crushed don't you dare pander to this person. Do not cancel the EAP but do let her know you are done. You cannot honestly believe that this is a proper environment for your kids to be in do you? There are serious issues here and you continue to pull up the rug and brush them underneath. 

You need to resign yourself to take some of the advice that has been given here and apply it or resign yourself to living throughout mortality as a human doormat but please do not let us be a witness to the doormat route if that is the one you are choosing.


----------



## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I like the letter. It wouldn't take much to turn it into a good 'dear john' letter.


----------



## jdd (Aug 30, 2013)

*Re: Re: Thoughts or comments*



crushedandbroken said:


> Thehardest part was abmitting to them that I have thought seriously of hurting myself. At least then the pain would be over and I really do not feel like anyone would miss me.


I suggest this book for working on your depression in addition to seeing the therapist.

Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David D., M.D. Burns http://www.amazon.com/dp/0380810336/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_.4TNsb11GNCMB


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

re: the letter
The letter well written. Could be shortened a bit to give it some more punch but the main point is that is unlikely to have an impact since reason is not going to make difference. 

You cannot write a impassioned letter to someone who has wasted your life. It is literary effort straight down the drain.

re:


> as for how we can say we are Christians but had sex before marriage, because we were not Christians then. Christianity came later.


Christianity seems not to have improved your wife at all. When you were unmarried heathens you at least had sex. Her temper is very Old Testament.


----------



## bestyet2be (Jul 28, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> re: the letter
> The letter well written. Could be shortened a bit...


Time was, I thought lots and lots of thinking and lots and lots of words were better than less.

For many situations, less is better.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

:iagree:

That is why Conrad, Happyman, GutPunch and some others are so effective as posters.


----------



## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OP

Going from pathetic to confident is not as hard as it sounds. I think it's like jumping off the 10m diving board (feet first). Seems scary at first but after the first time, much easier. A lot of good advice already offered. If I were you I would:

-- plan to move out temporarily this week. Hotel, friends place, stay with family whatever makes most sense.

-- You'll then go on business travel for January, return home afterwards.  Making for a good 6-7 week absence from her. Very useful I think.

-- do not go on a cruise with her or go with her to see family after your bus. travel. Be firm on that. Spend some time with your kids over the holidays but spend none with her.

-- before you move out his week sit her down and tell her why. Just tell her the things in your letter face to face, don't email it to her. Be conscious of how you talk with her. Maintain a calm, firm demeanor. Do not take focus off HER issues, regardless of how hard she tries to shift focus back to you.

-- then take off for the place you will live til January. Keep communication with her to a minimum during separation. When you do talk to her maintain same calm, firm tone. Tell her what you want from her when you move back in at end of next month.

Good luck to you OP.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Women - or marriage partners of any kind - who are delivered an ultimatum filled lecture along with requisite moving out arrangement information are about as likely to remain quiet and peaceful during the process as a bull in the Cincinnati Reds gift shop. I.e. Not likely.....


----------



## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

crushedandbroken said:


> Well, may have screwed up but she sent a text this am saying she was sorry for yesterday and a lot of other stuff and that she loved me. I answered back that those were just words and that I feel like a battered wife. She hurts me, comes apologizes and I come running back. That was several hours ago and nary a response from her. Maybe she said to heck with me. Just feeds my self image that I am wothless, unwanted and unloveable. I am beginning to see where she has been abusing me for years. I get up in the morning and tip toe around the house, I get dressed in the dark. All because I am afraid she will be mad if I wake her up. I justify it because "she is not a morning person" and I try to explain it away. This is just one of hundreds of things I do every day. I am always on edge about how she will react. I am the one she fusses at because she knows I will take it. Even there I feel like I have to justify her actions and that somehow I am wrong for feeling like I do.
> 
> as for how we can say we are Christians but had sex before marriage, because we were not Christians then. Christianity came later.
> 
> I called my companies eap plan, waiting for the counselor they recommended to call me back. Thehardest part was abmitting to them that I have thought seriously of hurting myself. At least then the pain would be over and I really do not feel like anyone would miss me. Sorry for the long, rambling post but it is where I am at.


I was right where you are at 16 months ago. I pleaded for my WW to try MC to save our marriage. With some reading and some very good IC, I realized the relationship was not only dead, but that it was designed to fail from the very beginning. I found the ego strength to accept that I could not control my wife's desire to meet my needs, nor should I even try. Gentle OP, love is not just about meeting your partner's needs, but 'wanting' to meet the needs they cannot meet on their own. Had she and I not come to honor this new agreement, there would not have been a continuing relationship. Against some of the good advice you might get here, I did some of the heavy lifting. There is a path forward that does not include walking on eggshells, but it does require that you understand and express how you feel about yourself in the context of the relationship. I think you have made a great start, you needn't wait to begin to take good care of yourself. Kindest Regards-
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

Just an update. Went to therapist...he convinced me to see shrink...8 days later they let me out. Will be out of work for at least a month. Severe depression with suicidal ideation. Highly medicated such is my life. But they did agree that it sounds as if I am suffering from battered spouse syndrome


----------



## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

The books that SA mentioned are great. Do yourself a huge favor and read them. I would suggest MMSL first and get involved with the forum. You will find a huge support group there. Sure, you won't agree with everything, but take the principles and make yourself a better man. 

I would suggest you take the next year to use the advice in the books to work on you. You cannot change another person, you can only change yourself. 

As a Christian I understand your reluctance to leave, but you don't have a "Christian" marriage now. You are right that she she has no "fear" of losing you. However, if you put the things in the book into practice, she may think otherwise. My signature line has already been quoted, so you know that already.

The 180 advice is also very good. Look, it will not be easy, but if there is hope for your marriage, you MUST do it.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The obvious question... What has been Mrs. Crushed's response to the medical and psych findings, and what does she plan to do about it?


----------



## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Crushed - I'm very happy if you are getting the help you need but quite sorry your life has taken such a drastic turn. Severe depression is nothing to mess around with and I'm glad you have been heard and taken seriously. I would think this would be a tipping point in your marriage - like john I am also wondering what your wife's response to this is?


----------



## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Sound like you have tried enough and it would make sense to get out and start trying to make a new life for yourself. It is hard but it needs to be done.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I suspect she will brush it off as "it's all in his head" or "the shrinks are all bogus" and the like. Same reason she won't do MC or IC.

Depending on where you live and how much you can spend on a lawyers and experts one could make a good case for full custody...


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

Actually she has talked to the docs and admitted that she might be emotionally abusing me and agreed to seek treatment. Her first therapy session was today. I have fillled out paperwork for fmla and disability and started outpatient to work on my depression.


----------



## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm glad you're seeking help. Your story doesn't make me sad for you it just makes me angry. Not just at your wife. But you can't show your children that this is how a father reacts to a person that is supposed to love them. 

I tell abused women all the time you cannot let your children see this. You must leave. You now have a diagnosis so I will say the same. If you dont have the strength within yourself to leave...find that strength for your childrens sake. Seeing you like this, all depressed on disability and taking medication because your wife is beating you down emotionally is unthinkable.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I don't often say it but I'm floored. 
Was she surprised?

It is difficult for many people to accept the facts of such a diagnosis and it shows strength on her behalf to immediately do something about it. My wife was diagnosed with BPD 5 years ago and she took it as seriously as one takes, umm, a sore throat. Still, track your progress faithfully and if you see regression then consider your options. 

Best wishes!


----------



## Gonna Make It (Dec 3, 2012)

I think my having a plan as detailed as I did shocked her, not just my step in front of a train one which I never would have done because it would have emotionally harmed too many people.

I had a lot of time to think about it while on the road and had a plan detailed enough to get myself locked up for a week as dangerous to myself.

sinnester, you show how little you understand mental illness. It is not a matter of "strength", and you cannot just cheer up.


----------

