# Feeling shaky



## aine

My H and I have been in R for 5 months now. He is still sober. Things have been calm and quiet, he does his thing, I do mine. We go out occasionally, attend functions, etc. we even have sex a few times a week if he is not travelling.
I think it is me. I have huge pressure at work on this project and I have never felt so alone. I cannot talk to him, I get no comfort. I feel emotional disconnect. 
I have been doing work with a therapist and the more I am doing the more I realise I have married someone who is like my father. A man who never gave me anything, how can I expect my emotional needs to be met by my H, they never will be.

I am a bit of a mess at the moment as its like a 'light bulb' moment for me. My H is doing all the right things except giving me what I want, connection and acceptance. He says he doesn't know what to do. I feel so lost. Am I the problem?

we are not due to see our MC for a while. I am away overseas with work for a month shortly.


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## jld

You could ask him to read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Guide-Women-Scientifically-Secrets/dp/1623361842


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## 225985

Yes, You are the one with the problem. Don't try to change him. That is controlling and manipulative. He is who he is and he has a right to be himself if not violent or abuse towards you. 

You probably married him BECAUSE he was like your father. Now after 20-30 years you want to change your mind?

Either learn to accept him as he is, and love him for the good qualities he has, or divorce him.


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## Relationship Teacher

aine said:


> My H and I have been in R for 5 months now. He is still sober. Things have been calm and quiet, he does his thing, I do mine. We go out occasionally, attend functions, etc. we even have sex a few times a week if he is not travelling.
> I think it is me. I have huge pressure at work on this project and I have never felt so alone. I cannot talk to him, I get no comfort. I feel emotional disconnect.
> I have been doing work with a therapist and the more I am doing the more I realise I have married someone who is like my father. A man who never gave me anything, how can I expect my emotional needs to be met by my H, they never will be.
> 
> I am a bit of a mess at the moment as its like a 'light bulb' moment for me. My H is doing all the right things except giving me what I want, connection and acceptance. He says he doesn't know what to do. I feel so lost. Am I the problem?
> 
> we are not due to see our MC for a while. I am away overseas with work for a month shortly.


Any person can learn to empathize. Empathy leads to sympathy. These are skills, not innate charcter traits.


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## MJJEAN

It sounds like he feels the way you want him to feel, but he isn't conveying it to you in a way that you understand. Like speaking two different languages. He may really not know what you want him to do. Have you tried explaining it to him very clearly? And by clear, I mean detailed instructions and examples?


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## jld

Relationship Teacher said:


> Any person can learn to empathize. Empathy leads to sympathy. These are skills, not innate charcter traits.


That is what Gottman's book is about: learning to empathize.


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## EllisRedding

blueinbr said:


> Yes, You are the one with the problem. Don't try to change him. That is controlling and manipulative. He is who he is and he has a right to be himself if not violent or abuse towards you.
> 
> You probably married him BECAUSE he was like your father. Now after 20-30 years you want to change your mind?
> 
> Either learn to accept him as he is, and love him for the good qualities he has, or divorce him.


Ya know, when I first read this I thought it was a bit harsh (and probably still is). However, there is a point here. You married your H for qualities which now that you look back on you wish he didn't have (i.e. he is more like your father which I am guessing is a negative in terms of responding to your needs). You realize now that b/c of this, there are needs of yours that are not being met. The problem/challenge, at this point is it fair to expect him to change? Obviously, you want to try and communicate as best as possible with him about this, but you may be asking him to be someone he is not. This is a tough one. If he truly cares about you and R, he will make his best effort, and hopefully there is some sort of middle ground you could both at least work towards.


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## Evinrude58

Aine,
He's like your father some because he is a man. Men are complete idiots when it comes to meeting emotional needs of women. You could be with 1000 men and 999 wiukd probably be equally stupid about "connecting" with you.

You've got to spell out in baby terms what you need. I'll bet he will come around. I don't know all the background here, but I wanted my ex to be happy. I had no idea I wasn't taking care of her needs, and couldn't have loved her any more. If you knew my story, it's very likely you would agree with her that I was an unsupportive ass. I was constantly doing my thing, and not worrying about her. I, as most men, didn't need anything from her except some snuggling at night and a meal now and then. I did take her out some, and if she needed me for anything, I was always there. But I had no idea about all the day to day connection and emotional support she needed. Yours probably doesn't either. You have to speak it out.
Jmo.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunCMars

Relationship Teacher said:


> Any person can learn to empathize. Empathy leads to sympathy. These are skills, not innate charcter traits.


Agreement point:

Anyone can learn to Empathize.

I give this a "conditional" nod of assent or agreement.

"Average or Normal" people...yes, they can be taught or conditioned to be emphatic and loving. If you come from a loving home environment, you are "likely" emphatic.

If you are [egocentric] or worse [narcisstic], you can be taught the proper response to another. You may or may not "feel it"....the empathy, but after training or IC you can give the OP the feeling that you do. You must "want" to do this, as it is not natural and naturally "in you".




Dis-agreement point:

Some people are born emphatic [Piscean tinted?]. We all know who they are. They are gentle folks, love everyone and especially love animals. 

Oh, they can be totally broken and become fearful and loathing of mankind [rarely to animals]. It is their natural instinct to be trusting and kind.

We can call them Beta....many are....many are Saints, from Day One.

But their lot is [often] "being invisible' to others. They are in the background and remain undervalued. Not too exciting. Having less value. The bright paint in a darkened room, never to be noticed.


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## SunCMars

@aine wrote:

I have threatened to leave after my second child moves to college. He says he wants to be a better man, but I hear lots of talk, little action. 
So it looks like when I show any sign of exerting independence and a search for transparency and honesty I get this BS. I hate him right now. If a man genuinely loved his wife and gave a s*** about making things right then he would open up. That’s how I feel. I am beginning to think that my marriage is dead and unless I just accept everything and move on or out of the marriage nothing will change. My IC says communication has broken down completely and I guess that is the problem, he has never been good at being open. She has suggested some MCs but to be honest right now I think it will be a waste of time just going around in circles.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is from a former post or yours.

You said then that once the 2d child moves on to college, you will leave. This is what I would recommend. 

I am going to But-tress this recommendation. It relates to the advice given HERE.

TAM is good and bad.

It lets you know that you are not alone in this world. Others have similar problems. This is good.

It also lets you know that others have taken certain paths to alleviate "their" pain and suffering. Many move on in their marriage. On to R or on to GTFO.

Too often, their words are needles. The needles push in one direction....out the door. Your mind becomes "retrained" and "refocused" toward divorce. 

The advice given here is what? That since you are unhappy....happiness is to be found "elsewhere", not in your marriage. 

This advice CAN BE "Enlightenment" a collective action, steering you to divorce. 

TAMMER's are SALESPEOPLE, nothing more. They can only offer you advice, hopefully "wisdom". 



The problem IMHO:

Once they tell you how horrible it is to be you, then they tell you dump the guy and start over [AND YOU BUY IT], this is where YOU should be. 

You have been "reprogrammed". Yes, some of the decisions were internal [made by you] and needed validation. You NOW have these assets in your "check-out book".



Note: Knowledge is Power. No argument from me, on this. When you apply this to human's and marriages...watch out!

Your mind is made up. You need strength to pull the trigger. The mind rules the finger that will start the lead-butt moving down the barrel, out of your life.

Having said all this. You need to separate. One year should suffice. Nothing else will work at this point. 

Let HIM make whatever moves that need to be done to successfully R..... while being separated. Oh, he is satisfied with status quo....You? Not at all.

Do not date other men during this separation. If he dates, then Divorce.


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## Relationship Teacher

jld said:


> That is what Gottman's book is about: learning to empathize.


There are so many skills that guide us into correct actions, rather than our emotional impulses taking us where they will.

So often, I am assailed because I tell "the victim" to empathize with their aggressor. Empathy dramatically helps "the victim" lessen their emotional pain. The problem is that, we tend to feel a need to hold on to our pain, otherwise, we are letting the perpetrator off the hook. Individuals tend to be very attached to the victim identity, and this becomes a very engrossing topic.

As for the uncaring husband or wife, all they have to do is spend the energy necessary to employ these skills. That alone can get most relationships out of deep water.


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## Relationship Teacher

SunCMars said:


> Agreement point:
> 
> Anyone can learn to Empathize.
> 
> I give this a "conditional" nod of assent or agreement.
> 
> "Average or Normal" people...yes, they can be taught or conditioned to be emphatic and loving. If you come from a loving home environment, you are "likely" emphatic.
> 
> If you are [egocentric] or worse [narcisstic], you can be taught the proper response to another. You may or may not "feel it"....the empathy, but after training or IC you can give the OP the feeling that you do. You must "want" to do this, as it is not natural and naturally "in you".


These skills take a lot of work to develop. That, necessarily, requires personally derived effort.

The result is less emotional pain and much higher quality of life.

It takes a lot of work, because individuals will resort to unhealthy externally-directed actions, when they become upset. Empathy gets put on the backburner...... when it is pride-defending time. The brain learns by practice, reward and punishment, etc. Individuals must take healthier actions, despite the initial discomfort. It becomes more habitual and natural, when they realize how powerful the skills are.


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## jld

Relationship Teacher said:


> There are so many skills that guide us into correct actions, rather than our emotional impulses taking us where they will.
> 
> So often, I am assailed because I tell "the victim" to empathize with their aggressor. Empathy dramatically helps "the victim" lessen their emotional pain. The problem is that, we tend to feel a need to hold on to our pain, otherwise, we are letting the perpetrator off the hook. Individuals tend to be very attached to the victim identity, and this becomes a very engrossing topic.
> 
> As for the uncaring husband or wife, all they have to do is spend the energy necessary to employ these skills. That alone can get most relationships out of deep water.


I often question who "the victim" is, too. I hope at some point we can get beyond "fault," and start looking at needs, and how to meet them.


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## Relationship Teacher

jld said:


> I often question who "the victim" is, too. I hope at some point we can get beyond "fault," and start looking at needs, and how to meet them.


I realized, after a long time and lots of research, that we are all "the victim". It doesn't get much notice, as it is the right of each individual, to be that victim. If one tries to give them self-help advice, it is often assailed. Society, at large, wants the perpetrators punished. It seems so easy, just punish the perpetrators, until they stop pushing our pain buttons, and then we will no longer hurt.

The truth is... this day will never come. "The victim" will always find things to hold against others. Again, it conflicts with their identity as "the victim", which (at its heart) is about power and comfort.

I find it very empowering to realize that we have individual power over our happiness. Many feel that it is unsympathetic, as "the victim" needs the outside world to fix everything for them. The fact is that the outside world is tremendously unreliable. I can count on myself. Each individual can count on themselves.

This doesn't mean I advise no support for victims. It means that the advice needs to help the victim realize their innate strength. We need to help victims in the long-term, rather than only focusing on the short-term, which makes our society hypersensitive, one individual at a time.

I found that my past victimhood resulted in a tremendous amount of externalized negativity, towards others. Our society refuses to see that victimhood can be extremely negative, and controlling towards others. The reason for this? When one is "the victim" their following actions/reactions are seen to be justified. "I only did that because of you. It is your fault that I did that!" That type of behavior is characteristic of the adulterer that blames their spouse for their cheating, for instance.


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## NoChoice

OP,
I had just such an epiphany not too long ago. It was extremely unsettling. The moment I realized that my wife was incapable of grasping what I was telling her was life altering. It took me considerable time to fully come to grips with this new reality.

It has been suggested that anyone can learn to empathize but I do not believe that to be true. I do believe that most individuals can be taught or trained to emulate empathetic behavior, much like a dog can be trained to fetch a stick but, under sufficient duress, they will revert back and respond with their true nature.

I believe that empathy is a byproduct of cognition and therefore cannot be manufactured in someone. Further I believe that true empathy requires significant thought and the ability to project and extrapolate an abundance of data. Therefore, those who lack this cognitive ability can never experience true empathy. I believe counseling, for the most part, to be training that teaches response but, without a deep clear understanding of why, the response is conjured and hollow, if not "appropriate".

Your H may simply be lacking the cognitive ability to empathize and sadly there is no way to increase intellectual ability in someone. Your H may even feel a desire to understand what you are explaining and to act accordingly but lacking the ability he really has no choice.

It then falls to you to decide what you can accept. I have struggled with this for some time now because my wife seems earnest in her desire to understand and supply what I need, she simply cannot. Once I came to this realization it allowed me to see her in a different light. Whereas before I saw her as obstinate and uncaring now, after my revelation I see her as unable. That has alleviated some of my frustration but certainly not all. And I must continually remind myself of this fact. She is a good person in her own right, she is just incapable of filling my emotional needs.

So we must choose. Do we accept what they can offer and live without some needs being met or do we leave and seek someone who can fill those needs but perhaps will be lacking in other areas? I struggle with this every day and I will admit that there are still times when I almost believe that she will magically one day see the light. However, after over half a century of life I must tell myself that the reality is that her changing is simply an unrealistic expectation.


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## 2ntnuf

> So we must choose. Do we accept what they can offer and live without some needs being met or do we leave and seek someone who can fill those needs but perhaps will be lacking in other areas? I struggle with this every day and I will admit that there are still times when I almost believe that she will magically one day see the light. However, after over half a century of life I must tell myself that the reality is that her changing is simply an unrealistic expectation.



I have to ask both you and aine. What changed? Was it that life got more complicated? An illness or an injury damaged them? You grew in one direction and they either did not or grew in the opposite direction? 

I know you have stated they were just like that. So, why didn't you notice until now? Was the sex that good? Did they fake being empathetic? Were you just not as aware of who you are and what you really want? 

Thanks.


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## NoChoice

2ntnuf said:


> I have to ask both you and aine. What changed? Was it that life got more complicated? An illness or an injury damaged them? You grew in one direction and they either did not or grew in the opposite direction?
> 
> I know you have stated they were just like that. So, why didn't you notice until now? Was the sex that good? Did they fake being empathetic? Were you just not as aware of who you are and what you really want?
> 
> Thanks.


For me what changed was circumstances. We were quite young when we married and for the first couple of years I attributed it to immaturity, naïveté, innocence. Then the children came along and I was too busy earning a living and raising the children to be concerned about my needs. I recall a particular night when the children were in their mid teens and we were sitting alone because they had gone to the mall or some such place and I made the statement to her that I was deeply concerned about us.

I told her that I feared that when the children leave home to strike out on their own we will not have enough of a connection to sustain the marriage. In typical fashion she sat there silent. When the children did eventually leave we found ourselves in exactly that situation and I contemplated leaving numerous times all the while knowing that she would eventually come to understand how shallow our arrangement was and strive to make it better. False hope, I know.

Then, in short order, along came the grandchildren and I redirected my "needs" to what the grandchildren could supply. So my needs have taken a backseat to my children and now my grandchildren and I am mostly okay with that as I glean great enjoyment from those grandkids.

As in the movie "Click" life seemed to go by in fast forward and now we are here. Dating holds no interest for me and I have adopted the "bird in the hand" mentality. As for the sex, the part it played in this was barely significant as she was LD and I was ND (normal) but because of the disconnect I felt I lost interest and became more LD also.


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## aine

blueinbr said:


> Yes, You are the one with the problem. Don't try to change him. That is controlling and manipulative. He is who he is and he has a right to be himself if not violent or abuse towards you.
> 
> You probably married him BECAUSE he was like your father. Now after 20-30 years you want to change your mind?
> 
> Either learn to accept him as he is, and love him for the good qualities he has, or divorce him.


It is not about changing my mind, if you knew the background I have been cheated on, he has been an emotionally abusive alcoholic, and I have put up with a lot of ****. He is now getting on the straight and narrow and thinks that all is fine now. My wounds are deep, i do not feel the emotional connection, I see our marriage very negatively ( i don't know if this is a phase), in short I don't know if I can get over the past. 
I have been reading Harville Hendrick's stuff, to see if I am projecting my childhood stuff on my H but tbh, but he is the one who has shat on me for years and now I am thinking, maybe I am a fool for reconciling. People can turn over a new leaf, and he seems to be but I am very confused.


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## aine

MJJEAN said:


> It sounds like he feels the way you want him to feel, but he isn't conveying it to you in a way that you understand. Like speaking two different languages. He may really not know what you want him to do. Have you tried explaining it to him very clearly? And by clear, I mean detailed instructions and examples?


How do you give step by step instruction to someone to emotionally connect and do the little things that keep you connected. They either want to or don't. I don't feel loved at all.


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## aine

I think people by nature are selfish although some are more empathetic than others. In my case i am the one who tries to take care of everyone, i try to work on me and take care of me now though. I sense as i take the focus of him, then the marriage tends to weaken. It's as if i have to be the emotional caretaker and I don't want to anymore. I want to either be alone or married to someone who takes some responsibility for the emotional state of the marriage. I am tired.


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## aine

2ntnuf said:


> I have to ask both you and aine. What changed? Was it that life got more complicated? An illness or an injury damaged them? You grew in one direction and they either did not or grew in the opposite direction?
> 
> I know you have stated they were just like that. So, why didn't you notice until now? Was the sex that good? Did they fake being empathetic? Were you just not as aware of who you are and what you really want?
> 
> Thanks.


The kids have gone, he is getting sober (alcohol abuse can overshadow underlying problems), I am exploring my self in counselling and don't want to pretend, I want to be as authentic as possible and right now I dont think we are authentic.


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## 2ntnuf

aine said:


> The kids have gone, he is getting sober (alcohol abuse can overshadow underlying problems), I am exploring my self in counselling and don't want to pretend, I want to be as authentic as possible and right now I dont think we are authentic.


So, life's responsibilities have eased. 

His sobriety has allowed his true feelings to come out? Odd because so many say that a drunk will tell the truth. I'm confused there.

You are finding out who the professional thinks you are.

I don't understand the meaning of this authenticity. Can you give me a for instance(an example)?


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## SunCMars

Relationship Teacher said:


> I realized, after a long time and lots of research, that we are all "the victim". It doesn't get much notice, as it is the right of each individual, to be that victim. If one tries to give them self-help advice, it is often assailed. Society, at large, wants the perpetrators punished. It seems so easy, just punish the perpetrators, until they stop pushing our pain buttons, and then we will no longer hurt.
> 
> The truth is... this day will never come. "The victim" will always find things to hold against others. Again, it conflicts with their identity as "the victim", which (at its heart) is about power and comfort.
> 
> I find it very empowering to realize that we have individual power over our happiness. Many feel that it is unsympathetic, as "the victim" needs the outside world to fix everything for them. The fact is that the outside world is tremendously unreliable. I can count on myself. Each individual can count on themselves.
> 
> This doesn't mean I advise no support for victims. It means that the advice needs to help the victim realize their innate strength. We need to help victims in the long-term, rather than only focusing on the short-term, which makes our society hypersensitive, one individual at a time.
> 
> I found that my past victimhood resulted in a tremendous amount of externalized negativity, towards others. Our society refuses to see that victimhood can be extremely negative, and controlling towards others. The reason for this? When one is "the victim" their following actions/reactions are seen to be justified. "I only did that because of you. It is your fault that I did that!" That type of behavior is characteristic of the adulterer that blames their spouse for their cheating, for instance.


The Ultimate, but Willing Victim said these words to his torturers, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."

Our species has no need of being One with "Ultimate Aims".

Someone has to work, to sow, to reap. 

You will never know or meet the exception to this Ordering.

That person will make them-self inconspicuous. 

What we do not understand, we mock and destroy.


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## aine

SunCMars said:


> The Ultimate, but Willing Victim said these words to his torturers, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
> 
> Our species has no need of being One with "Ultimate Aims".
> 
> Someone has to work, to sow, to reap.
> 
> You will never know or meet the exception to this Ordering.
> 
> That person will make them-self inconspicuous.
> 
> What we do not understand, we mock and destroy.


SunC - I sort of see what you are saying, I continue to be sacrificial, but I'm only human. 
Other parts you are speaking Greek to me here. What exactly are you saying.


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## aine

2ntnuf said:


> So, life's responsibilities have eased.
> 
> His sobriety has allowed his true feelings to come out? Odd because so many say that a drunk will tell the truth. I'm confused there.
> 
> You are finding out who the professional thinks you are.
> 
> I don't understand the meaning of this authenticity. Can you give me a for instance(an example)?


Thank you for all the insightful replies.

The point is I am not sure what his true feelings are as we lack authenticity in communicating, things are probably still too early. It has struck me from looking at a Soberrecovery forum that this is normal in the first year of recovery as the RA needs to be very self focused to deal with their own recovery. 
Often marriages don't make it through this part due to the dramatic changes both parties need to deal with.
I keep forgetting this. Dealing with this is not the same as dealing with problems in a normal relationship, it is very much complicated by the alcoholism and not only is it difficult for the RA but also for the partner of the RA as they both have to live a new life and engage without the smokescreen and drama of the alcohol. I need a break from this.


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## 2ntnuf

aine said:


> Thank you for all the insightful replies.
> 
> The point is I am not sure what his true feelings are as we lack authenticity in communicating, things are probably still too early. It has struck me from looking at a Soberrecovery forum that this is normal in the first year of recovery as the RA needs to be very self focused to deal with their own recovery.
> Often marriages don't make it through this part due to the dramatic changes both parties need to deal with.
> I keep forgetting this. Dealing with this is not the same as dealing with problems in a normal relationship, it is very much complicated by the alcoholism and not only is it difficult for the RA but also for the partner of the RA as they both have to live a new life and engage without the smokescreen and drama of the alcohol. I need a break from this.


I can understand needing a break from that. Thanks.


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## Openminded

aine said:


> I think people by nature are selfish although some are more empathetic than others. In my case i am the one who tries to take care of everyone, i try to work on me and take care of me now though. I sense as i take the focus of him, then the marriage tends to weaken. It's as if i have to be the emotional caretaker and I don't want to anymore. I want to either be alone or married to someone who takes some responsibility for the emotional state of the marriage. I am tired.


I had a very similar situation during my 45 year marriage. I was the ultimate giver (and that involved enabling although I didn't see that then). The hardest lesson for me to learn is that someone can love you and still not be capable of meeting your emotional needs -- even when they feel they are trying hard to do so. 

Because of my history I virtually never recommend R and usually stay away from R threads. It does work for some but doesn't work for many. It takes a very dedicated WS to make R work well long-term (although some do an excellent job). Trust is usually an issue and it can be very difficult -- or impossible in some cases -- to get that back. 

An additional issue in your case that I didn't have to deal with is that he's a recovering alcoholic. I've read that the dynamic of the marriage changes once a spouse quits drinking. All the anger and hurt and disappointment and sadness that tended to be ignored for the most part when the spouse was struggling just to survive the day tends to come out in full force once the other spouse stops drinking. Maybe that's part of it?


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## MJJEAN

aine said:


> How do you give step by step instruction to someone to emotionally connect and do the little things that keep you connected. They either want to or don't. I don't feel loved at all.


Literally. You give directions literally.

DH was born to parents in their 40's. DH's mom and dad were very WASP in their interactions. No hugging, kisses, "I love you, kid", or any of that after about kindergarten age.

I grew up with a very loud, in your face, huggy, touchy, family.

After a lot of conversation, I realized that DH felt what he was supposed to be feeling for me, but that he had no idea how to demonstrate that or even that he was supposed to demonstrate it.

I gave him literal instructions. If I am sad and you feel the desire to comfort me, hug me, stroke my hair, hold my hand. If you see me walk by and feel the urge to touch me, do it! If I cross your mind, call or send a short text. Seriously, the man was clueless.

If I had a dollar for every time he stood there, all flustered and frustrated, saying "I care! I just don't know what to do!", I'd be posting from a better location!


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## SunCMars

aine said:


> SunC - I sort of see what you are saying, I continue to be sacrificial, but I'm only human.
> Other parts you are speaking Greek to me here. What exactly are you saying.


On TAM, the chorus sings the Highest Praise to those that can escape "Victim-hood by reaching the "Indifferent-Mind" summit.

By being indifferent to those that betrayed you or harmed you, they can no longer "touch" your feelings. They can no longer cause you any pain. 

This can be the 50K feet reference also. You are up high and away from your problems and looking down at them.

This certainly helps. It is a good point to be in/at for most of mankind.

It requires of you to be in one of two [likely] states of mind. 

1) Indifferent to a single individual or small group of people....the "pain in the azzes" that need to be made powerless. Good if attainable. 

2) Numb to the world. This is the most common feeling that a BS feels. They no longer trust "anyone" or anything. Not good.

Indifference is the Code of the Zombies! Having no feeling, even for one human being or situation is NOT the ideal.


The IDEAL would be fully knowing, accepting and forgiving the trespasses of those whom you share the Earth.

And yes, especially those whom are closest to you...intimate with.

If you can accept the fact that men/women are flawed, are not really capable of changing to any large degree, you are on the way toward real happiness.

Knowing that people can be and often are selfish and egocentric and that they cannot or will not change requires Saint-like awareness. 

Forgive them for their shortcomings. *But do not forget their trespasses. Get away from those that harm you.*


Good Luck with that. More than likely you will merely compartmentalize those people and problems.....away. Out of your conscious mind! 

See what I mean!

Greek?
Even the Ancient Greeks, save Socrates, Plato and a few others could get themselves to that plane of thought.


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## aine

SunC, I don't find your existential BS of much practical use to be honest.


You remove yourself from the shortcomings of others, forgive them etc. Yes I believe in forgiveness and I have exercised that for many years! but 'removing yourself' holding yourself aloof is not the answer as you suggest, humans were made for relationship, not to be on the outside looking in. Granted if we followed your ideas, we would probably be safe from hurt but very lonely people. 

Marriage is the most intimate relationship there is, the two become one, not the two keep separate and "indifferent" to each other or "numb" to each other, (your words) that doesn't make any sense. That is why there are so many problems in marriages because we all yearn for relationship.


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## sokillme

jld said:


> That is what Gottman's book is about: learning to empathize.


You didn't read the chapter on empathizing with men huh?


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I am not religious but I do look for wisdom in a wide variety of places and I find many truths in the Bible. One such truth is referencing relationships wherein Paul, writing to the church at Corinth states "be ye not unequally yoked together". This reference makes an important point in that if the load is not being equally shared then one "horse" or "oxen" will have to do most or all of the pulling to make the "team" successful.


----------



## aine

sokillme said:


> You didn't read the chapter on empathizing with men huh?


I'm listening to the 7 principles for making marriage work, which book are you referring to? 
To boot I am tired of being the one to read this and that to improve things, I am tired, tired tired.


----------



## aine

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I am not religious but I do look for wisdom in a wide variety of places and I find many truths in the Bible. One such truth is referencing relationships wherein Paul, writing to the church at Corinth states "be ye not unequally yoked together". This reference makes an important point in that if the load is not being equally shared then one "horse" or "oxen" will have to do most or all of the pulling to make the "team" successful.


My interpretation of that is that you don't marry someone of a different faith and I did, though he converted later of his own volition. But I see your point, it is absolutely true, people with different values, etc will have a difficult time in marriage and we are complete opposites.


----------



## sokillme

aine said:


> I'm listening to the 7 principles for making marriage work, which book are you referring to?
> To boot I am tired of being the one to read this and that to improve things, I am tired, tired tired.


It was a joke, jld has trouble empathizing with men.


----------



## NoChoice

aine said:


> I'm listening to the 7 principles for making marriage work, which book are you referring to?
> To boot I am tired of being the one to read this and that to improve things, I am tired, tired tired.





aine said:


> My interpretation of that is that you don't marry someone of a different faith and I did, though he converted later of his own volition. But I see your point, it is absolutely true, people with different values, etc will have a difficult time in marriage and we are complete opposites.


Actually Paul was warning against relationships between believers and non believers but the concept applies to a wide range of circumstances. In our case we became "yoked" with spouses that are not our emotional equal.

It is quite difficult to fully ascertain someone's emotional maturity until you are faced with a wide enough variety of incidences to piece together a pattern. It took me years to accomplish this and years more to realize that she was not just being neglectful and/or indifferent.

I asked her this evening what our arrangement ( I use arrangement in place of relationship since what we have does not qualify as a relationship ) meant to her and she replied that it was the most important thing in her life. I responded by asking what quantified that statement.

How does one take the Ostrich approach to something so important to them? Over the years I have tried, unsuccessfully, many times to prompt an emotional response from her but the response has always been to ignore the situation until it goes away, never to proactively attack the issue or put any effort into a resolution. I too grew very weary of trying.

I have finally come to the realization that she is severely emotionally retarded and have all but ceased in my efforts to stir emotion in her. I regret to have to tell you that if you cannot accept this in your H then you will be forever disappointed. Once you come to this acceptance then you can decide if you can tolerate this or if you need to move on. However, expecting him to mature emotionally is unrealistic.


----------



## jld

aine said:


> I'm listening to the 7 principles for making marriage work, which book are you referring to?
> To boot I am tired of being the one to read this and that to improve things, I am tired, tired tired.


Gottman's latest book, which I linked earlier in the thread, could help your husband. It is called _A Man's Guide to Women._ https://www.amazon.com/Mans-Guide-Women-Scientifically-Secrets/dp/1623361842

He says in there that it is men who make or break heterosexual relationships, but most relationship books are read by women. 

I think many women can relate to your feeling of being tired, tired, tired.


----------



## SunCMars

aine said:


> SunC, I don't find your existential BS of much practical use to be honest.
> 
> 
> You remove yourself from the shortcomings of others, forgive them etc. Yes I believe in forgiveness and I have exercised that for many years! but 'removing yourself' holding yourself aloof is not the answer as you suggest, humans were made for relationship, not to be on the outside looking in. Granted if we followed your ideas, we would probably be safe from hurt but very lonely people.
> 
> Marriage is the most intimate relationship there is, the two become one, not the two keep separate and "indifferent" to each other or "numb" to each other, (your words) that doesn't make any sense. That is why there are so many problems in marriages because we all yearn for relationship.


Yes, I did a poor job of summarizing. Being obtuse only pisses people off.

My motives are simple....be colorful. Amuse/assist people with deep [sometimes dark] humor.

Success rate? Maybe 10% of the time. Maybe I am too generous with my rating!

There are up-teen Kling-On Posters on TAMMY's skirt tails...pick your own Guru.



What is my point? 

No one can "really" separate themselves from others. 
So, do not waste your limited time, chasing Sri-Nirvana. 

Use the time to turn-over as much Earth as possible.... with open-mindedness...wearing open-toed sandals..

*To your point, Friendship and intimacy is what makes life so interesting. * No argument from this Knucklehead.

Being able to emulate Buddha is lonely IMHO! 

I now lower my head and charge at the wall!


----------



## 2ntnuf

When I read your posts, aine, I am stirred to ask what you are doing for yourself? What makes you happy? What hobbies, etc., do you have? I just feel like you have nothing in your life just for yourself. We all need some things to do that will take us away from or problems for a little while. 

I don't need you to post an answer to those. I was just hoping you had some things or could make a list of things you'd like to do, or actually do for yourself.


----------



## brooklynAnn

Aine, I have a feeling you are at the fu** this stage. You are allowed to feel this way. If you don't want to put any effort in at this stage then, don't. Take a break from it all. 

Take care of yourself. Cook things you enjoy for you. Read a few books just for the pleasure of it and get lost in them. Listen to some music and dance to your heart's content. Watch some crazy movie or tv show and just enjoy. Do it all for you. Nourish yourself with some self love and care. 

If we were friends in the real world, I would have you over for a whole weeks and take care of you. 

Just to heck with the marriage, husband and house for now. Take the summer and enjoy living for you. Your body and mind needs a break from all this. 

Have some fun girl. Go for a walk and put on some headphones and listen to some crazy music. To heck with it all.


----------



## aine

2ntnuf said:


> When I read your posts, aine, I am stirred to ask what you are doing for yourself? What makes you happy? What hobbies, etc., do you have? I just feel like you have nothing in your life just for yourself. We all need some things to do that will take us away from or problems for a little while.
> 
> I don't need you to post an answer to those. I was just hoping you had some things or could make a list of things you'd like to do, or actually do for yourself.


I have a few things, though as I am studying still there is limited time for other activities. I am into volunteer work, the gym (when I get time), meeting friends and travelling. My studies have curtailed these things somewhat due to time and money. But they'll be over soon.


----------



## aine

brooklynAnn said:


> Aine, I have a feeling you are at the fu** this stage. You are allowed to feel this way. If you don't want to put any effort in at this stage then, don't. Take a break from it all.
> 
> Take care of yourself. Cook things you enjoy for you. Read a few books just for the pleasure of it and get lost in them. Listen to some music and dance to your heart's content. Watch some crazy movie or tv show and just enjoy. Do it all for you. Nourish yourself with some self love and care.
> 
> If we were friends in the real world, I would have you over for a whole weeks and take care of you.
> 
> Just to heck with the marriage, husband and house for now. Take the summer and enjoy living for you. Your body and mind needs a break from all this.
> 
> Have some fun girl. Go for a walk and put on some headphones and listen to some crazy music. To heck with it all.


I am doing exactly that, gone overseas and will take a break for a few weeks after work is done.


----------



## sokillme

Relationship Teacher said:


> Any person can learn to empathize. Empathy leads to sympathy. These are skills, not innate charcter traits.


The one caveat to that is they have to want to learn.


----------



## sokillme

aine you may never get what you want from this man, he may not have it in him. Besides all the analysis on this thread, that my be the bottom line. The only advice I would give you is you are not a bad person, or a failure if you move on. He has broken the vows not you. Sometimes it is OK to give up.


----------



## aine

sokillme said:


> aine you may never get what you want from this man, he may not have it in him. Besides all the analysis on this thread, that my be the bottom line. The only advice I would give you is you are not a bad person, or a failure if you move on. He has broken the vows not you. Sometimes it is OK to give up.


You have an excellent point there. 
He says I do not communicate how I feel with him, I do not open up. 

I don't because I do not feel safe to and part of me thinks if I verbalise how I feel then there is no going back, so instead I write in journals.

After years of living with him I have learned to keep my innermost heart protected and I cannot open it up, I guess it's a protection mechanism. So I am not being authentic either.

He is also a typical male who will either give
1. a solution
2. convince me that I shouldn't feel like that because of blah blah blah

The bottom line is I don't feel loved at all, he says I've always been the strong one emotionally but I don't want to be anymore. So the problem is probably me as well.

I am not getting what I want and I know I am not giving him what he wants.


----------



## jld

aine said:


> You have an excellent point there.
> He says I do not communicate how I feel with him, I do not open up.
> 
> I don't because I do not feel safe to and part of me thinks if I verbalise how I feel then there is no going back, so instead I write in journals.
> 
> After years of living with him I have learned to keep my innermost heart protected and I cannot open it up, I guess it's a protection mechanism. So I am not being authentic either.
> 
> He is also a typical male who will either give
> 1. a solution
> 2. convince me that I shouldn't feel like that because of blah blah blah
> 
> The bottom line is I don't feel loved at all, *he says I've always been the strong one emotionally but I don't want to be anymore. *So the problem is probably me as well.
> 
> I am not getting what I want and I know I am not giving him what he wants.


It sounds like you are not willing to protect him anymore. That is very good.

The next step will be to be transparent with him.


----------



## aine

I know that is the next step but I vacillate between wanting to be with him and not be with him, it is hard to explain.

Part of me wants what we once had and think if I put in the effort we can make it work, but then again it will be me putting in the effort. I get little from him except cups of coffee, and chats mostly about his work. Maybe as he said before, he is a shallow person, with little if any emotional depth. I have to come to the realisation, maybe it is not me. As I get older I want more, more meaning, more connection. I know how some walk away wives feel. My heart cries out for the emotional connection but it is met with comments like 'what do you want me to do, you know I have to work' duh so do I!

the other part of me wants justice, justice for all the pain, wasted years. I want him to hurt the way I hurt, to have his heart broken the way mine has been broken.

Does that make sense?


----------



## sokillme

aine said:


> I know that is the next step but I vacillate between wanting to be with him and not be with him, it is hard to explain.
> 
> Part of me wants what we once had and think if I put in the effort we can make it work, but then again it will be me putting in the effort. I get little from him except cups of coffee, and chats mostly about his work. Maybe as he said before, he is a shallow person, with little if any emotional depth. I have to come to the realisation, maybe it is not me. As I get older I want more, more meaning, more connection. I know how some walk away wives feel. My heart cries out for the emotional connection but it is met with comments like 'what do you want me to do, you know I have to work' duh so do I!
> 
> the other part of me wants justice, justice for all the pain, wasted years. I want him to hurt the way I hurt, to have his heart broken the way mine has been broken.
> 
> Does that make sense?


So you said why you don't want to be with him why do you want to be with him? The justice part is not really a good sign. I get it but I don't think it is helpful. I think if you are going to be in r then you have to give that up because there really is no justice in r. This is part of the reason I could never do it.


----------



## brooklynAnn

aine said:


> I know that is the next step but I vacillate between wanting to be with him and not be with him, it is hard to explain.
> 
> Part of me wants what we once had and think if I put in the effort we can make it work, but then again it will be me putting in the effort. I get little from him except cups of coffee, and chats mostly about his work. Maybe as he said before, he is a shallow person, with little if any emotional depth. I have to come to the realisation, maybe it is not me. As I get older I want more, more meaning, more connection. I know how some walk away wives feel. My heart cries out for the emotional connection but it is met with comments like 'what do you want me to do, you know I have to work' duh so do I!
> 
> the other part of me wants justice, justice for all the pain, wasted years. I want him to hurt the way I hurt, to have his heart broken the way mine has been broken.
> 
> Does that make sense?


You make sense. 

I totally understand not wanting to give up on what you have. It's familiar and you know that it was good once. It's amazing how huge our capacity for hope is. 

Maybe, his response is just like a guy's. "I am trying what more do you want. " Not understanding you are struggling and all he needs to do is give you his hand and help pull you up. Maybe, this is all he can give. He has certainly changed since things were good. Now he is a new man, who has had experiences that he did not share with you. This new man might not feel the need to do more. Because he can rely on you. 

The strong one who holds everything together and pulls the weight of the entire family structure by herself. So while he is different you have not changed. You are still the same person. Only now you are making demands. Who knows if he can fulfill any of those. 

At this stage of your life and marriage, you should be enjoying your marriage. Having great sex. Enjoying ecah other's company and making plans for your retirement together. He should be your friend and companion. You should be loving each other more these days because it's just the two of you now.

I understand your need to make him hurt as much as you. Because you feel that he does not understand what he put you thru or how much you suffer. You might never get him to understand.

Or you can always find your revenge quickly, I have lots of ideas.>


----------



## aine

blueinbr said:


> Yes, You are the one with the problem. Don't try to change him. That is controlling and manipulative. He is who he is and he has a right to be himself if not violent or abuse towards you.
> 
> You probably married him BECAUSE he was like your father. Now after 20-30 years you want to change your mind?
> 
> Either learn to accept him as he is, and love him for the good qualities he has, or divorce him.


when i first read this I didn't like what you are saying. But it's true I have to start looking at his positive qualities and he has many. Yes, I cannot change him. 
I asked him if there was anything he wanted from me
he gave me a list of 
1. restarting to play an old sport we used to do together (golf)
2. going more on holiday with him ( I stopped over a year and a half ago as he stood me up due to his drinking and I vowed I'd never go alone with him again unless kids were coming)
3. being more involved in his corporate life (how I am not sure, he didnt say - we will have to discuss when I go home)
4 Have more fun (how he wants me to do that, not sure). 

I can see why he wants this, as I used to do all of this when I was a stay at home expat wife. Now I work full time and study part time (he wanted me to earn money and I wanted to study for myself) but he has high expectations in terms of time. How can I do all of this? 

The thing that bothers me, he never organises anything, I have to organise the holidays, the fun things to do ( i have been doing that, plays, jazz clubs, comedy shows, etc that is all me). 

I asked him what was he bringing to the table. His response

1. financial support
2. great sex

Neither 1 nor 2 fully meet my needs at all. I am not at home but need to have a gentle (I tend to be a steam roller) way of saying that this is not what I want and to meet some of his requirements, atm golf is out of the question as I do not have 5 hours at the weekend to spend. 

He asked me what i wanted and its a lot less demanding
1. attention/affection
2. a call or text once a day to say he is thinking of me
3. tell me he loves me more often

So my question is

1. how do i tell him I cannot meet his list of requirements completely due to demands on my time
2. he needs to meet some of my needs and financial support and sex doesn't do it for me totally


You may think I am making excuses and sound very unreasonable, but this is a man whom I told recently there was too much disconnect with us and I felt very lonely and his response was
'what do you want me to do, I have to work" as he was working all the time but has time for his mates and to play golf.

My response is to withdraw as I cannot keep going after him, it is just like a merry go round. If I meet his needs which i have for years then he just thinks all is ok, but it is not ok for me anymore. I want more.

He has stopped drinking which is great, but that doesn't suddenly make everything ok.

Maybe as someone told me in another thread, he will never change and I just accept it or move on. 

I will never understand this man.


----------



## brooklynAnn

aine said:


> I asked him if there was anything he wanted from me
> he gave me a list of
> 1. restarting to play an old sport we used to do together (golf)
> 2. going more on holiday with him ( I stopped over a year and a half ago as he stood me up due to his drinking and I vowed I'd never go alone with him again unless kids were coming)
> 3. being more involved in his corporate life (how I am not sure, he didnt say - we will have to discuss when I go home)
> 4 Have more fun (how he wants me to do that, not sure).
> 
> I asked him what was he bringing to the table. His response
> 
> 1. financial support
> 2. great sex
> 
> 
> 
> He asked me what i wanted and its a lot less demanding
> 1. attention/affection
> 2. a call or text once a day to say he is thinking of me
> 3. tell me he loves me more often
> 
> So my question is
> 
> 1. how do i tell him I cannot meet his list of requirements completely due to demands on my time
> 2. he needs to meet some of my needs and financial support and sex doesn't do it for me totally
> 
> .


Tell him exactly what you said here. You can't spare 5 hours on the weekend to play golf. Your life has changed since those days. You have different demands on your time now. As such, you can't do this.

Just wondering @aine, can you play once a month instead?

You might also give him a task to do. Can you pick an event you would like to do together this weekend? Let him handle the arrangement. Give him the choice to pick what he wants to do. But you don't get to complain about his choices, you just go along with it.

Ask him what he means by being involved in his corp. life? Does he means he wants you to go out with his workmates after work. Or does he want you to host them in your home?(This is just more work for you)
Attend company events? Because I don't see what else you can do about this.

I always imagine you guys sleeping in separate rooms. Just wondering if you are still intimate.

For some men if they are providing for the family and having sex, then life is great. He has thinks that should satisfy you. What he still does not get is that you want closeness and affection. 

Do you have the energy to start showing him affection outside of sex, so that maybe he will start reciprocating. Sometimes, I think you need to show them and give them affection in order for them to mirror you. 

This must be a lot of work to carry and maintain this marriage. Keep talking to him, have discussions. Don't sound as if you are complaining. Instead let him know you are trying to understand him and you would like for him to understand you. 

I have to say, that I am always surprised by how much you are willing to give. Whenever I think you are at the end somehow, you find a way to carry on. That is such a credit to you. At one time you must have loved him so much, I think that is what is still driving you.


----------



## 225985

aine said:


> when i first read this I didn't like what you are saying.
> 
> I asked him what was he bringing to the table. His response
> 
> 1. financial support
> 2. great sex
> 
> He asked me what i wanted and its a lot less demanding
> 1. attention/affection
> 2. a call or text once a day to say he is thinking of me
> 3. tell me he loves me more often
> 
> So my question is
> 
> 1. how do i tell him I cannot meet his list of requirements completely due to demands on my time
> 2. he needs to meet some of my needs and financial support and sex doesn't do it for me totally


I did not like my post either. I was projecting and I do not follow what I told you. Plus while I knew of you here I did not know your backstory. I scanned your other threads. So I will try to help better with this post.

1. how do i tell him I cannot meet his list of requirements completely due to demands on my time?

Give him your list in order of priority
1. attention/affection
2. a call or text once a day to say he is thinking of me
3. tell me he loves me more often
4. Great sex
5. Financial support

He sees himself as the provider - money and sex. What he wants in return is your admiration and time, as recognition of what he provides. I assume he defines himself by his job. I would be concerned he will be lost when he retires and might not be able to cope. 

Both of you have affection as your top language, right? That is ironic since neither of you offer it to the other. You both need to communicate in detail what affection means to you. 

Concerning this " 3. being more involved in his corporate life (how I am not sure, he didnt say - we will have to discuss when I go home) 4 Have more fun (how he wants me to do that, not sure). ", why are you not sure? You need to ask him specifically what he means and needs. Likewise, you need to do the same. 

Have you ever asked each other "Why do you want to stay married"? If not, try that.


----------



## tropicalbeachiwish

aine said:


> 1. restarting to play an old sport we used to do together (golf)
> 2. going more on holiday with him ( I stopped over a year and a half ago as he stood me up due to his drinking and I vowed I'd never go alone with him again unless kids were coming)
> 3. being more involved in his corporate life (how I am not sure, he didnt say - we will have to discuss when I go home)
> 4 Have more fun (how he wants me to do that, not sure).
> 
> You may think I am making excuses and sound very unreasonable, but this is a man whom I told recently there was too much disconnect with us and I felt very lonely and his response was
> 'what do you want me to do, I have to work" as he was working all the time but has time for his mates and to play golf.


#4 is easy! Laugh more! Laugh at yourself. Put in a comedy movie at home, pop some popcorn, and laugh away. Go to a comedy club. Like sports? Get some tickets to a game. Like music? Get some tickets to a concert. Go for a bike ride together. On a Sunday, go out for some ice cream! Go to a park for a picnic. Go to a fair or an amusement park. 

As for #1-if you can do it once a month, that'd show him that you you're trying to fit it in. Can you try that? Then you should automatically have #4 as well. 

As for #3-I'd ask for examples. Maybe he means that he wants to be able to talk to you about the corporate office and that he wants you to be interested in hearing about it. You probably don't, but you should fake it. Ask him about his day at work. Ask him how his meeting with xyz went. Did he have to do a presentation and he was nervous about it (just an example)? Wish him luck in a text then ask him about it afterwards. It shows that you take an interest in what's important to him. 

#2-I get this one. You have a summary of my situation as well. He's not drinking so give him another chance with the holidays together. Forgive (not forget). When you go on vacation, you will have #4 in this one too. 

I told my H that we had no connection and that I was lonely too. His response was that he didn't know what I wanted. We've had the same conversation many times. 

It's good that you both have provided a short list for each other. No, you're not unreasonable. Now that you have a better idea of what he needs and he has a better idea of what you need, make sure that you're working together in providing those needs to each other. It'll take time and practice, but it's doable.


----------



## aine

brooklynAnn said:


> Tell him exactly what you said here. You can't spare 5 hours on the weekend to play golf. Your life has changed since those days. You have different demands on your time now. As such, you can't do this.
> 
> Just wondering @aine, can you play once a month instead?
> 
> You might also give him a task to do. Can you pick an event you would like to do together this weekend? Let him handle the arrangement. Give him the choice to pick what he wants to do. But you don't get to complain about his choices, you just go along with it.
> 
> Ask him what he means by being involved in his corp. life? Does he means he wants you to go out with his workmates after work. Or does he want you to host them in your home?(This is just more work for you)
> Attend company events? Because I don't see what else you can do about this.
> 
> I always imagine you guys sleeping in separate rooms. Just wondering if you are still intimate.
> 
> For some men if they are providing for the family and having sex, then life is great. He has thinks that should satisfy you. What he still does not get is that you want closeness and affection.
> 
> Do you have the energy to start showing him affection outside of sex, so that maybe he will start reciprocating. Sometimes, I think you need to show them and give them affection in order for them to mirror you.
> 
> This must be a lot of work to carry and maintain this marriage. Keep talking to him, have discussions. Don't sound as if you are complaining. Instead let him know you are trying to understand him and you would like for him to understand you.
> 
> I have to say, that I am always surprised by how much you are willing to give. Whenever I think you are at the end somehow, you find a way to carry on. That is such a credit to you. At one time you must have loved him so much, I think that is what is still driving you.


Yes, those are practical steps, I need to be forthright and not be defensive about it.
I could play monthly
Asking him to do anything, he normally messes it up, gets the wrong day, tickets etc honestly. His secretary usually does everything for him as he is so busy, even sending me flowers, booking flights, etc a few times! I don't appreciate that tbh.

I could ask again, see what happens but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

I need to work harder on the affection, if I feel unloved I withdraw, he likes affection too. I guess I could be more tactile, he likes that. Maybe I will work on this one first.

I love this man (though he has brought be to hell and back), we have raised two beautiful kids and when things are good, they are very good, I don't want to start over again and bring all my baggage (cause I'm far from perfect) into another relationship. I am still attracted to him, still enjoy his company when we do things together, so I feel I should continue to work on this. He wants to work on things, why would he give up drink, go to IC and MC if he weren't serious and he told me I was the one. (This has helped alot)

We might live for another 45 years, so why not. 

Incidentally, things must be improving because if you looked at my threads of over a year ago, I would never have wrote this, my feet were heading out the door, so progress I think, as I genuinely mean this.


----------



## turnera

Have you guys done the Emotional Needs and Love Busters questionnaires from Harley? It sounds like they would give you two exactly the information you need to hash this out.


----------



## 2ntnuf

aine said:


> I know that is the next step but I vacillate between wanting to be with him and not be with him, it is hard to explain.
> 
> Part of me wants what we once had and think if I put in the effort we can make it work, but then again it will be me putting in the effort. I get little from him except cups of coffee, and chats mostly about his work. Maybe as he said before, he is a shallow person, with little if any emotional depth. I have to come to the realisation, maybe it is not me. As I get older I want more, more meaning, more connection. I know how some walk away wives feel. My heart cries out for the emotional connection but it is met with comments like 'what do you want me to do, you know I have to work' duh so do I!
> 
> *the other part of me wants justice, justice for all the pain, wasted years. I want him to hurt the way I hurt, to have his heart broken the way mine has been broken.*
> 
> Does that make sense?


Yep, it does make sense. 

Justice and revenge are two different things. Revenge can make you have more guilt. Justice doesn't. 

If you choose not to work on the marriage, I hope you choose justice. You will be a better woman for it. 

Even, it [justice] is as the sun on a flat plain; uneven, it strikes like the sun on a thicket —Malay proverb
2.Injustice … gathers like dust under everything —Rainer Maria Rilke
3.Just as a sentence meted out by a kangaroo court —Anon
4.Justice … inevitable as the law of cause and effect —L. P. Hartley
5.Justice is like a train that’s nearly always late —Yevgeny Yevtushenko
6.Justice is like the kingdom of God; it is not without us as a fact, it is within us as a great yearning —George Eliot
7.Shed justice like paladins —Jonathan Valin
8.The tongue of the just is as choice silver —The Holy Bible/Proverbs
9.An unrectified case of injustice has a terrible way of lingering … like an unfinished equation —Mary McCarthy
10.We will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like waters and righteousness like a mighty stream —Martin Luther King Jr., speech, June 15, 1963 
This is from King’s famous “I Have a Dream” speech.

11.Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains. Your judgments are like the great deep —The Holy Bible/Psalms
‘Your’ replaces the biblical ‘thy.’
Justice - definition of justice by The Free Dictionary




Revenge is a kind of wild justice, which the more a man’s nature runs to, the more ought law to weed it out —Francis Bacon
2.Revenge is like a boomerang. Although for a time it flies in the direction in which it is hurled, it takes a sudden curve, and, returning, hits your own head the heaviest blow of all —John M. Mason
3.Revenge is often like biting a dog because the dog bit you —Austin O’Malley
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/revenge


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## aine

turnera said:


> Have you guys done the Emotional Needs and Love Busters questionnaires from Harley? It sounds like they would give you two exactly the information you need to hash this out.


We printed everything off, and had a go but didn't pursue it. He is jaded by the check lists as we did an intense course which highlighted all the problems and left him reeling. So I don't want to push more on him, just work with the MC for now. The MC suggested we read Harville Hendrix - getting the love you want


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## turnera

Hendrix's book is about why we pick the partner we pick. It will teach him that he married you to fill a hole in his heart that his parents dug, to fix the pain. We pick a partner who is like the person who hurt us as a child, hoping that the partner will 'change' and stop being that person and do right by us and thus heal us.

Only problem is, the other person is doing it, too. Subconsciously, of course. You've heard the statement "I married my mother/father." And once the PEA chemicals are gone and you're no longer love-blind, and once you realize the other person is NOT going to change and stop being like your parent, you start to build resentment at them for not fixing you. And vice versa.

All very deep subconscious, of course.

The second half of the book, though, is a fix-it manual for marriages, so that might help. But do read the first half together first.

AS for the questionnaires from Harley, you really need to have read the book first to understand why you're doing them. Did you?


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## aine

turnera said:


> Hendrix's book is about why we pick the partner we pick. It will teach him that he married you to fill a hole in his heart that his parents dug, to fix the pain. We pick a partner who is like the person who hurt us as a child, hoping that the partner will 'change' and stop being that person and do right by us and thus heal us.
> 
> Only problem is, the other person is doing it, too. Subconsciously, of course. You've heard the statement "I married my mother/father." And once the PEA chemicals are gone and you're no longer love-blind, and once you realize the other person is NOT going to change and stop being like your parent, you start to build resentment at them for not fixing you. And vice versa.
> 
> All very deep subconscious, of course.
> 
> The second half of the book, though, is a fix-it manual for marriages, so that might help. But do read the first half together first.
> 
> AS for the questionnaires from Harley, you really need to have read the book first to understand why you're doing them. Did you?


I've listened to 7 principles of marriage but haven't read Getting the Love you want, (haven't done my homework) neither has he. We are both overseas (for a month) in different countries (partly work related) so no time for doing that. 
I have read so much and feel I do most of the reading and cajoling, now I want a break from it and do things for me. We meet our MC in a few weeks time when we get back so I'll see what she says. This last week we have spoken to each other or text each other every day, we discussed us too and I told him how I feel about everything, it was a good discussion and we are making progress.

But when you have been hurt as deeply as I have been it is difficult to trust and let go again, I know that takes a lot of time. For example, the going on the holiday thing is a problem for me. He let me down badly over a year and half ago and I ended going alone on the holiday that i had planned and paid for anyway. If it is brought up he turns it into a joke but it is still a painful for me, I guess he tries to minimize it, so I have refused to go on holidays alone although he has suggested it a few times. 
Part of me thinks that sometimes a spouse just loses the privilege of having certain parts of the other spouse as a consequence of their actions. I told him that he will never have all of my heart again because that is exactly how I feel, he has my love but not my whole heart. He doesn't deserve it. This is what I struggle with as I am an all or nothing type of gal 

I will go for dinners, movies, plays, etc but the holiday thing is a huge stumbling block for me right now. I have been on holidays with my girl friends and am planning another one for early next year without him. I could tell he was a bit miffed but he has to do a hell of a lot more in terms of progress before I will ever let him take me for granted again.


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## SunCMars

brooklynAnn said:


> You make sense.
> 
> I totally understand not wanting to give up on what you have. It's familiar and you know that it was good once. It's amazing how huge our capacity for hope is.
> 
> Maybe, his response is just like a guy's. "I am trying what more do you want. " Not understanding you are struggling and all he needs to do is give you his hand and help pull you up. Maybe, this is all he can give. He has certainly changed since things were good. Now he is a new man, who has had experiences that he did not share with you. This new man might not feel the need to do more. Because he can rely on you.
> 
> The strong one who holds everything together and pulls the weight of the entire family structure by herself. So while he is different you have not changed. You are still the same person. Only now you are making demands. Who knows if he can fulfill any of those.
> 
> At this stage of your life and marriage, you should be enjoying your marriage. Having great sex. Enjoying ecah other's company and making plans for your retirement together. He should be your friend and companion. You should be loving each other more these days because it's just the two of you now.
> 
> I understand your need to make him hurt as much as you. Because you feel that he does not understand what he put you thru or how much you suffer. You might never get him to understand.
> 
> Or you can always find your revenge quickly, I have lots of ideas.>


I really liked this post until the Devil Card fell out of your Freudian Slip........ smelling of female musk and Slap-the-Stick Guile Smiles.


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## She'sStillGotIt

aine said:


> It is not about changing my mind, if you knew the background I have been cheated on, he has been an emotionally abusive alcoholic, and I have put up with a lot of ****. He is now getting on the straight and narrow and thinks that all is fine now. My wounds are deep, i do not feel the emotional connection, I see our marriage very negatively ( i don't know if this is a phase), in short I don't know if I can get over the past.
> I have been reading Harville Hendrick's stuff, to see if I am projecting my childhood stuff on my H but tbh, but he is the one who has shat on me for years and now I am thinking, maybe I am a fool for reconciling. People can turn over a new leaf, and he seems to be but I am very confused.


I see things a lot differently than a lot of the posters in this thread..

For you, it's been literally *YEARS* of emotional abuse, cheating, lying, the dysfunction of having to live with alcoholism every single day, and YOU constantly having to lower the bar in order to somehow accept your lot in life.

I'll give you credit for staying because being very honest, I would have left his worthless ass YEARS ago and never even looked back.

So here it is, *years* of abuse later, and now he wants to _supposedly_ turn over a new leaf and you're expected to be ecstatic and excited about it like everything is A-ok and the past is just magically erased? _Seriously_?

And the truth of the matter is, even *now* in supposedly 'better' times, you're STILL trying to find ways to self soothe because you're *still* getting nothing from this man. It's just a different kind of nothing.

I think my biggest question would be, why have you decided that your entire life has to be some kind of endurance test with this man? What's the payoff in that? There MUST be some kind of payoff or you wouldn't be doing it. I simply can't even think of one that would justify staying. Sorry.


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## 2ntnuf

Codependent No More by Melodie Beatty. Have you read it, aine? I agree with SSGI. We should be telling you, run forrest run. 

I guess I need to apologize. I think I have also encouraged you to work on it. That was wrong of me. Maybe I didn't understand? Maybe I felt something when I read some of your posts? Maybe it was the counselor's opinions? I don't know. Doesn't matter. I'm sorry.

It's time to be happy. Don't you think?


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## ReturntoZero

Be careful about the "true self" stuff.

We all have dark parts of our character.

Some of us have more self-discipline than others as to what we present.


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## aine

2ntnuf said:


> Codependent No More by Melodie Beatty. Have you read it, aine? I agree with SSGI. We should be telling you, run forrest run.
> 
> I guess I need to apologize. I think I have also encouraged you to work on it. That was wrong of me. Maybe I didn't understand? Maybe I felt something when I read some of your posts? Maybe it was the counselor's opinions? I don't know. Doesn't matter. I'm sorry.
> 
> It's time to be happy. Don't you think?


I have read codependent no more in fact I often recommend it to others on here.
I am getting stronger, taking one day at a time, had a great trip overseas for some time and feel great. Focusing more on me and doing what I need to do to get ahead. 
I am also realising and internalising the fact that it is not me that makes him the person he is, it is him. I think once I get past the questioning, the trying to understand and rationalise his behaviour and treatment of me over the years, it cannot be explained. I know I have contributed to our problems but I know the majority of it is to do with him as a person, he has a lot of demons, and drinking compounded them.
I do love him and sometimes see a small scared boy. I think after over 20 years of marriage I owe it to myself, my kids, my H, my marriage to see if we can turn it around. He is still sober and working on himself, it is worth my while to see how that turns out, don't you think. I know I vacillate between leaving and staying but I will know when the costs outweigh the benefits.


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## aine

ReturntoZero said:


> Be careful about the "true self" stuff.
> 
> We all have dark parts of our character.
> 
> Some of us have more self-discipline than others as to what we present.


Of course we all have flaws, I am no different from the next person, but not sure what you are saying or implying here, like to clarify?


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## 2ntnuf

aine said:


> I have read codependent no more in fact I often recommend it to others on here.
> I am getting stronger, taking one day at a time, had a great trip overseas for some time and feel great. Focusing more on me and doing what I need to do to get ahead.
> I am also realising and internalising the fact that it is not me that makes him the person he is, it is him. I think once I get past the questioning, the trying to understand and rationalise his behaviour and treatment of me over the years, it cannot be explained. I know I have contributed to our problems but I know the majority of it is to do with him as a person, he has a lot of demons, and drinking compounded them.
> I do love him and sometimes see a small scared boy. I think after over 20 years of marriage I owe it to myself, my kids, my H, my marriage to see if we can turn it around. He is still sober and working on himself, it is worth my while to see how that turns out, don't you think. I know I vacillate between leaving and staying but I will know when the costs outweigh the benefits.


Of course it's your decision. What changes your mind toward working it out?


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## aine

​


2ntnuf said:


> Of course it's your decision. What changes your mind toward working it out?


I'm mentally and emotionally in a better place I guess, let's see how long that lasts


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## 2ntnuf

aine said:


> ​
> I'm mentally and emotionally in a better place I guess, let's see how long that lasts


Can you pinpoint what causes the changes?


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## ReturntoZero

aine said:


> Of course we all have flaws, I am no different from the next person, but not sure what you are saying or implying here, like to clarify?


Just that it's a very human tendency to take a collection of someone's worst moments and label that as their "true self".

We all have selfishness and sinfulness inside us. Those parts of our personalities basically compete with one another. We choose which ones we present.


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## aine

2ntnuf said:


> Can you pinpoint what causes the changes?


Escaping from the environment and having quality time alone, recharging the batteries, meeting people who I know love and care about me.


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## aine

aine said:


> Escaping from the environment and having quality time alone, recharging the batteries, meeting people who I know love and care about me.


I should also add that he has been doing a lot of things to become a better person, still sober, still doing AA, personal counselling, attends MC with me and has been doing alot of self reflection. Even talks to me about it, we are both trying to be more open with each other and that is helping alot


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