# Girls don't pay, cost of Girlfriend?



## rep (Jun 11, 2012)

Married a long time,, been dating and I noticed that women still make you feel like you must pay. I've been asking friends and they say they are used to it but it gets expensive. In this day and age,, why isn't it more equal?? 
If I take her and her son out,, your talking $60 for meal. Movies are more.. And to go out for drinks is even more. I have yet to have one women offer to contribute. 
Do men budget for this???


----------



## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

If you ask a woman out, then you pay as you asked for a date. I once asked my then boyfriend (now husband) to go to the county fair with me. I insisted to pay as I wanted to go to the fair. I bought chili dogs and cokes for us. I also paid for the entrance fee. We had a great time. He made 20 times more than I made. He was amused and flattered that I paid for this date.

In your post, why is it necessary for you to bring your son's date? This must be a package deal. In this case, be ready to support her son too. There will be no discounts for you.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I myself a, a bit old fashioned when it comes to dating, and my husband always paid for our dates. It's not about the money, not sure I can explain it right either, lol. It just made me feel special and taken care of. I realise that some people feel differently and that's a-ok, this is just how I feel.

I honestly didn't care where we went, I loved just being with him and having a walk on the beach followed by fish and chips, or visit a gallery and have a drink afterwards, and yes, he took me out to dinner often and I loved that too.

If you feel you shouldn't always pay, you should speak to your gf. There's nothing wrong with you feeling that way, but you can't let resentment slowly build if you don't tell her, that's not fair. She may not have any idea that you feel this way.

If she strongly disagrees then you're just not compatible - that's what dating is for, to find these things out


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I agree with Roselyn, the person who asks the other out pays.

I like to do it this way because that gives each of us a chance to spoil the other.

How do you meet these women? After the first date or two, do you discuss basic dating protocol? I think it's a valid topic to bring up since there are no rules anymore that are universal. 

When you find the woman who agrees to the "who asks pays" idea, you have someone to date. Then you take turns asking each other out.

I hate the idea of dutch. If I go dutch, it's not special, it's not a date to me.


----------



## RDL (Feb 10, 2012)

It seems we are in a transition period towards gender equality where both genders are reluctant to let go of their advantages. 

Gender equality has been portrayed more as women being currently unfairly disadvantaged in several areas and while those issues are great and arguably more severe there are issues on the men's side as well.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

My experience on this matter is that if the guy is not paying for me, then he is most likely paying for some other woman.

During the first year of courtship with my husband, while he was nickel and diming me to pay for stuff (including milk and coffee although he wanted me to stay over at his place), it turned out that he was richly underwriting the outings he had with a "just a friend ex." 

I can also think of a couple of other examples in other past relationships.

So I suspect with other women, they are just protecting themselves from the outset. ie, the less you pay for them, the more you have to multi date other women.

Also, if there is any truth to the feminists' 80 cents on the dollar campaign (or whatever the ratio is), it's probably very rare that you meet women who make more than you do.

When do you expect / hope that the woman will start paying? By the third date, by the time of exclusivity?

Also, are married, separated, divorced?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

I'm happy to pay for a woman, but I wouldn't date a woman who expected me to always pay. That sense of entitlement in a modern, western nation doesn't appeal to me.

My wife has paid for plenty of dates, long before we were married. It's always been like that with us. Very grateful to have a woman who didn't feel the need to draw such strict gender lines when it came to this subject. That just made me desire to take care of her more.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Why don't you consider the kind of woman you're picking and pick one that has more of a view of equality? I tried to pay while we were dating and hb refused. Now that we're married I pay at least half if not more of the bills because I make more.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)




----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

My expectation is to pay for us both in the early days of dating. However, if she doesn't at least offer to pay the tip, or buy us drinks now and then, it's a red flag for me. I've often found that even women with difficult financial circumstances will offer to pay sometimes, and to me that indicates self respect and shows willingness to contribute to making the relationship work.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


>


Good gravey


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

My husband never expected me to pay for anything. Not while dating, not after.

If he could not afford it, we just did not do it.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

op it doesn't have to be this way. If you are just meeting someone for the first time you are under no obligations to have dinner and spend the money. Hell I wouldn't want to be roped into an entire meal time wise with someone if they turned out to not be what they appeared or rude and so on.

i recommend doing something cheap or free for a first meeting just cause you are likely to go on a lot of those and yes they can add up to be expensive. After you are in a dating realtionship just discuss the money with the other person. Just be adult about it. Hey I will get this can you please get that. It's just a discussion. If the woman wants you to pay for everything well they have a term for that.


----------



## rep (Jun 11, 2012)

I brought it up several times. She says that no man has ever brought it up. Her sisters husband takes her and her sister out a lot and he always pays. I do make a lot more but I don't see where that's my problem. She loves to go out but I hate the entitlement feeling. 
If you go out once a week,, you would nee to budget $300 per month. 
Is it bc she has been spoiled by men and that I make a lot more.
I'm also asking bc I've recently dated a women for 3 months and she never offered and I dated s women for 6 weeks and she did not either.
I'm lost. One was s doctor and the other a Fed law. Both made great money. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, please allow me to suggest that if you want your dates to pay, that you stop dating "girls". Really. You're older than I am - which is not particularly young. Your dates should be, and should be referred to as, women. I think your tendency to see people who should be grown women as "girls" may be leading you to select immature partners who then feed back into your habit of seeing them as girls. 

Yes, women will pay for dates. It's usually dates they're inviting you on. If you're not encountering women who will pay, or women who will invite you, I suggest you reevaluate your selection methods.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

rep said:


> I brought it up several times. She says that no man has ever brought it up. Her sisters husband takes her and her sister out a lot and he always pays. I do make a lot more but I don't see where that's my problem. She loves to go out but I hate the entitlement feeling.
> If you go out once a week,, you would nee to budget $300 per month.
> Is it bc she has been spoiled by men and that I make a lot more.
> I'm also asking bc I've recently dated a women for 3 months and she never offered and I dated s women for 6 weeks and she did not either.
> I'm lost. One was s doctor and the other a Fed law. Both made great money. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?




It's possible that they had had similar experiences that I had. That is, whenever I help to defray the cost of dating, that money is then used to take other women out.

And there's a funny thing about men. while my (future) husband kind of acted annoyed about treating me while we were out, one evening at a happy hour he asked me in annoyed voice, did I want another drink. of course, I said no. Another guy offered me a drink and I accepted it. He was pissed. So he didn't want to buy me a drink and he didn't want any other man to buy me a drink either.

Indeed, my sister dated her bf for 6 months and then moved in with him. All during this time she paid for (some) dates because he claimed he had no spare cash. My sister learned a few weeks into living with him that he was paying for the utilities of his ex gf. (there was no court order involved). 

interesting how my sister found about this. It was a Saturday morning when her car was in the driveway. The ex gf came and dropped the bills into the mail slot. (Her gravy train was abruptly terminated.)

If you're dating women who make more money than you do, could it be:

1. They want to make sure that you aren't dating them due to the amount of money that they make. (Do they have children, since children can wipe out the value of disposable income)

2. They want to ensure that they are dating someone who makes at least or more money than they do. Ergo, you are not in their league when you hassle them to pay for stuff.

I also find it interesting how a lot of women claim that they were prepared to pay their fair share for dates while courting, but managed to find a man who insisted on paying for everything. Well, good for them. But that doesn't help you, does it.

Hopefully, I have at least given you some food for thought.

ETA:


> Is it bc she has been spoiled by men and that I make a lot more.


In my case, it's because I've been screwed too many times.

And now that I think about it, what does it matter how much the woman makes. Just because you are dating a well paid medical doctor, why would you want spend less on her than the cashier at Walmart if you're really into her?


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

rep said:


> Married a long time,, been dating and I noticed that women still make you feel like you must pay. I've been asking friends and they say they are used to it but it gets expensive. In this day and age,, why isn't it more equal??
> If I take her and her son out,, your talking $60 for meal. Movies are more.. And to go out for drinks is even more. I have yet to have one women offer to contribute.
> Do men budget for this???


Girls will offer to pay occasionally. Golddiggers won't... 

I had to have this "talk" with my gf and its awkward has hell but you need to tell her how it is. She told me, "it makes her feel taken cared of" and "she's never had a guy make her pay". I told her, "it's 20 f***ing 15 and we both have bills so there is NO reason you can't contribute your fair share. I unlike you believe in equality for women." And guess what? She pays her half. She's not happy about it but I don't really care. I didn't join the dating world to throw money out the window and surprise surprise she still wants to be with me. I told her flat out, "I will NEVER pay for everything on principle." Right now, it's probably 60/40 which I can live with.

So for you my friend here are a few suggestions:

First of all, why the hell are you paying for her kid? If she wants to bring the kid she can pay for him. You didn't knock her up. And besides, are you dating her or both of them? You need to put an end to that nonsense immediately. Tell her to hire a damn babysitter.

Second, does she have a job? If she's in the same tax bracket as you are then tell her you either expect her to alternate paying dates or you want to go dutch. Don't fall for the guilt trip, she should be ashamed of treating you like an atm. Money is just a tool, you are their to build a relationship. Not entertain her for free. If she makes alot less consider a 2/3 to 1/3 split but she needs to throw in something once in a while.

Third, in the beginning, as is customary, yes you pay for the first 5-6 dates or whatever but once exclusivity is established, if she still thinks you should pay for everything, it's time to find someone else who will want to be with you and not your wallet. You should of course still absorb special events too (anniversaries, valentine's day, etc.) but every freaking friday night? No... way...

Fourth, if she flat out refuses to pay then you better tell her to have your house cleaned, dinner on the table, and bj waiting for you when you get home. Cause that crap sexist attitude she has can go both ways... Either you treat each other as equal partners or you jump in your DeLorean and act like it's 1955 all over again. 

Finally, DO NOT BE AFRAID TO WALK AWAY. At the end of the day women respect STRONG men. If you want to pay then pay happily. If you don't, then stand up for yourself. She won't appreciate it if you buy her anything. Quite the opposite, she'll think you're just another loser to take advantage of. When a woman doesn't EVER offer to pay, then that's a HUGE red flag that she has selfish tendencies. Save yourself a lot of time, heartache and money. Move on. 

Good Luck.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Girls will offer to pay occasionally. Golddiggers won't...


How often is occasionally? And do you drive to her place to pick her up and take her home or pay her taxi fare?


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

I am 46 and dated for about a year after my long-term relationship ended. 

I ALWAYS insisted my date and I go dutch. I can pay my own way and prefer it.

If I were you, I'd stay away from women who expect you to *always* pay. They might have Entitled Princess Syndrome.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> How often is occasionally? And do you drive to her place to pick her up and take her home or pay her taxi fare?


At least a quarter to a 1/3 of the time. I mean income is a factor. If I make twice as much, I would never expect 50/50. The bottom line is, I don't want to feel like I'm being taken advantage of. I want her there dating me not Ben Franklin.

I have no problem picking her up all the time or dropping her off whatever. Sometimes she even picks me up if we end up doing some activity near my house. Transportation has never been an issue at all. I don't use taxis.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Lila said:


> I also recommend that you set the precedent for how you want a potential relationship to proceed starting at Date #1. Don't be the guy that pays for the five star wining and dining during the first 5 or 6 dates because he's trying to hook the hottie, then insists on dividing everything 50/50 as soon as exclusivity is established. That's called a bait and switch.


I think you missed the point... If you ask someone on a "date" then absolutely, traditionally it's the person who asked for the date who should pay, regardless of gender in my opinion. This is the initial courtship phase where you attempt to see if there is any type of connection. Date one, two and three should be nothing more than getting to know a person and seeing if your compatible. That's it. So if you ask someone out initially, you pay and see where it goes. Talking about money right off the bat would be in poor taste. Like discussing, where your future wedding will be and how many kids you want on the first date. 

However, once the boyfriend/girlfriend precendent is established the dynamic of the relationship clearly changes. You're still courting of course but hopefully you are equal partners and I agree before you decide to go steady and take that step, you should set the expectation that you don't plan to pay all the time, if you think it might be an issue. If the girl considers that a "bait and switch" she can simply turn down the boyfriend offer and find some other guy who wants to happily finance her "lifestyle".

Ideally, you get a pretty good idea of whether it will be an issue if the women hasn't at minimum offered to pay at least once during the first 5-6 dates. If she hasn't, then strongly consider that she's one of the these types whose looking to be "taken care of financially" and in that instance, my advise is to move on if that's not what you are looking for. There are PLENTY of fish in the sea. I can tell you that with absolute certainty.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Rowan said:


> OP, please allow me to suggest that if you want your dates to pay, that you stop dating "girls". Really. You're older than I am - which is not particularly young. Your dates should be, and should be referred to as, women. I think your tendency to see people who should be grown women as "girls" may be leading you to select immature partners who then feed back into your habit of seeing them as girls.
> 
> Yes, women will pay for dates. It's usually dates they're inviting you on. If you're not encountering women who will pay, or women who will invite you, I suggest you reevaluate your selection methods.


Well I as was going to comment about this as well but you more than covered it. :smthumbup: OP you are dating girls with the emotional maturity of teenage girls. time to pick better. Dating is a two way street now and it should never be the sole responsibility of one person to take care of all the money. I have no idea how much you make OP but you meantion you make good money so could it be that these girls are purposely choosing you to show them a good time? how are you meeting them?


----------



## wise (Sep 1, 2013)

In theory and in my opinion, a man who pays for everything never gets the last laugh. They'd be better off hiring a hooker two days a week and in a LTR, they would most likely be getting more sex from the hooker per week. 

I was never sold on buying dinners or even buying drinks for girls I had just met like a flock of guys were. Any guy who is doing so is (1) trying to show off or (2) trying to get laid. While it makes the woman feel "safe blah blah", all the guy wants is p*ssy and to be the "man" of the hour. However, there are way easier way's to get laid. Be good looking and wait for the girl to get drunk ON HER OWN.

In your situation, if your still paying for everything throughout a marriage, LTR, etc., you chose the wrong woman. I chose very carefully when it came to this issue. I wanted a woman who also took care of me outside of the bedroom. Many couples go half way and many couples go one way. There are plenty of sexy women who don't view you as a piggy bank and constantly offer to pay for things. 

This subject is funny though. In my past, I knew women who use to eat and get drunk on another guy's bill before calling me to come over to their place after they got rid of him. Stupid men don't realize that money isn't a way to a woman's p*ssy, it's only a way to their heart (unless they have celebrity money, then it's fair game but mainly because they are big name people).


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Not all women are coming from the same place with this issue. Personally I have seen many women spend money on men in order to buy their love. Or like NTA says, men expecting some women to pay while freely paying for others. 

I WAS an immature young girl when I started dating my H but he was much more mature and had been around the block quite a few times. He never asked nor expected me to pay for any dates. The only time I paid was when I invited him out for his birthday. Early on he made it clear that he was not looking for me to spend any money on him. We both have a more traditional view of gender roles even though I am 29 and he is 34. We are not isolated in those views. 

I sometimes feel like TAMers are from one planet and I'm from another when some of these views are expected to be the accepted view. A lot of TAM views are foreign to my sphere of influence.


----------



## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Asking another out on a date the tab should be covered by the person who did the asking/inviting. Now, this is where I draw the line...the kid...what is up with that? You are either allowing your date not to have to pay for a sitter, she is using the kid to block anything physical(that you might try  ) and or both. Look, you asked her out on a date...not the entire frigging clan. 

I think it is time to find a new date....


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Ug. This continues to be a problem for me.

So I started off offering to pay half. Some guys split it, others said they'd get it and I'd offer to leave a tip or if we had plans for dinner and a movie or some other activity, I'd offer to pay for the other thing. I always thanked them for the date in general and said I enjoyed meeting them, etc.

I found that I rarely heard back from these men.

So I switched it up. I had read that women establish their worth and should expect the guy to pay. Ah, I see - I was being modern and instead I looked haughty, unapproachable, emasculating or somehow made a subliminal message that I wasn't "worth" having the guy pay. So I stopped offering. The bill would come and sometimes it sat there awkwardly for a moment before he reached for it, other times conversation flowed and he didn't miss a beat while reaching for it. I always thanked them at the end of the date and said I enjoyed getting to know them.

More of these guys called back.

In the end few made the cut long term. The ones that did were the payers, though. It was because they were generous with their time as well. They were thoughtfully proactive and chivalrous. They did not compare tit for tat, nor did I. Is this a coincidence? I'll never know. One I broke off first, the other he did. Also, I never chose the more expensive dish, I never ordered multiple drinks to "get my money's worth" from a guy. I spent his money conservatively as I did my own. I never suggested an expensive restaurant and instead gave a variety of suggestions.

At my age most men make more than I do. I don't mind paying occasionally, or spending my money on them by staying in and cooking (a nice dinner in can cost quite a bit, too!) and I'm also fine with less expensive options - in fact a creative date is GREAT. A walk in the park and a dollar movie and a pizza at his place - all just fine. 

So the last guy I met bought me a beer sampler (we were at a brewery) and I didn't offer to pay but I also shared it with him. We didn't really click but it was loud and hard to get to know someone in that environment. We probably made the same amount but that was all he spent - not a huge investment - two hours of time and $12.

I like to be treated and I like to treat my date. But splitting a bill feels like I'm going out with a friend or a family member. It doesn't feel special. A date is a special occasion. I'm not a gold digger but I can't afford to be a sugar momma. I'd like a man who earns what I do or a little better but mostly because that's just a side effect of having similar ambition. If he has an ex and four kids, well I surely don't expect an expensive date whether it's a fine dining establishment or a private club with bottle service or a weekend away. Even if he's bringing in solid six figures I don't EXPECT it but if he could afford it and was being super CHEAP I'd be offended because I tend to be generous and I don't even have a lot!

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.  If I offer to pay I'm too modern and headstrong; if I don't I'm a gold digger or have a sense of entitlement.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

rep said:


> I brought it up several times. She says that no man has ever brought it up. Her sisters husband takes her and her sister out a lot and he always pays. I do make a lot more but I don't see where that's my problem. She loves to go out but I hate the entitlement feeling.
> If you go out once a week,, you would nee to budget $300 per month.
> Is it bc she has been spoiled by men and that I make a lot more.
> I'm also asking bc I've recently dated a women for 3 months and she never offered and I dated s women for 6 weeks and she did not either.
> I'm lost. One was s doctor and the other a Fed law. Both made great money. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?


Yes you are doing something wrong. You are picking women who want you to pay for everything, then you complain that they are exactly they way you know they are.

This woman with the kid. How long have you been dating her?

Can you tell us what the first date was like? Where did you go? Did you pick her up and drive? or did the two of you drive your own vehicles and meet at the place?


----------



## rep (Jun 11, 2012)

I am using 3 women that Ive dated here. The one with the kid,,,well,,its joint custody and hard to get sitters,,,didn't mind paying that time.
2 of the 3 women are "alpha" females, great education, great jobs, don't need a man but wants one, etc..
I just think the modern times are awkward to say the least. Im not sure I would let them pay,,Ive never had one offer but I might feel uncomfortable. It would be nice if they offered.
Maybe they could make a dinner the following week and say thankyou,,this was for that great dinner last week???
Don't know,,,I just feel most women feel entitled. 
Im learning


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> So I started off offering to pay half. Some guys split it, others said they'd get it and I'd offer to leave a tip or if we had plans for dinner and a movie or some other activity, I'd offer to pay for the other thing. I always thanked them for the date in general and said I enjoyed meeting them, etc.
> 
> *I found that I rarely heard back from these men.*
> So I switched it up. I had read that women establish their worth and should expect the guy to pay. Ah, I see - I was being modern and instead I looked haughty, unapproachable, emasculating or somehow made a subliminal message that I wasn't "worth" having the guy pay. So I stopped offering. The bill would come and sometimes it sat there awkwardly for a moment before he reached for it, other times conversation flowed and he didn't miss a beat while reaching for it. I always thanked them at the end of the date and said I enjoyed getting to know them.
> ...


Another interesting tidbit here that dovetails this discussion:

I met a woman who lives in Oxford full time (yes, that beautiful, historic university town that is about an 1 hour train ride outside of London (the big city)).

She told me that when she did online dating she noticed a few things:

1. when she agreed to meet the guy in London, she more often got stood up.

2. when the guy agreed to meet her in Oxford (wherever they were coming from), they always showed up.

Sounds to me that it's a waste of time for us ladies to make it is for you men.; there's no upside at all..........


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

thefam said:


> Not all women are coming from the same place with this issue. Personally I have seen many women spend money on men in order to buy their love. Or like NTA says, men expecting some women to pay while freely paying for others.
> 
> I WAS an immature young girl when I started dating my H but he was much more mature and had been around the block quite a few times. * He never asked nor expected me to pay for any dates. The only time I paid was when I invited him out for his birthday. Early on he made it clear that he was not looking for me to spend any money on him. We both have a more traditional view of gender roles even though I am 29 and he is 34. We are not isolated in those views.*


Although my H is like JLD's and yours TheFAM.. he wouldn't have even allowed me to pay when we met.. or argued he would get it.. at the time he was the one with the job...a new car...I wasn't even working yet.. so it made sense.. he wanted to treat me..he's older fashioned and feels this is what men do. 

HOWEVER.....if I found myself single *today* meeting potential dates....beings the landscape is now so very different in an equalized society.... *I WOULD offer to pay for myself*.. I would never expect it... I would even prefer I paid in the beginning -as I wouldn't want the guy to feel duped if he wasn't my type & I walked away... if too many men are faced with this, woman after woman after woman ..... it would be down right depressing.. 

Another issue is...I would not want him to assume he was going to get laid that night cause he took me out to a fancy dinner .... One really *never knows *the expectations of another .. unless they've talked for some time before meeting...

I would seek the more traditional types out however.. but I feel I'd need to show him I wasn't after his money or expected to be treated with special privileges.. until we're an item, it's all an exploratory thing.. If, however, I found him cold, not very giving, miserly.. it would be a red flag.. but some equality in the beginning for dinners. ..I'd be good with it...

I'd probably suggest doing lower cost outings ... a picnic at a park...whatever we could both agree on.. I'd be a cheap [email protected]#$ It's so much more about a chemistry over where you go and how much you spend. More will be revealed in the back & forth communication...and this can happen just as lovely over a bags of chips sitting near a lake watching the sun go down together.. 



> * I sometimes feel like TAMers are from one planet and I'm from another *when some of these views are expected to be the accepted view. A lot of TAM views are foreign to my sphere of influence.


I feel this way many times.... It's always comforting to read your posts theFAM ...makes me feel a little more at home here...


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Traditionally men paid because, well, most women historically haven't been in a position to pay.

In a modern context? It makes zero sense for women to be fighting for equity in all matters, yet still collectively be entitled to be paid for.

Want things the old fashioned way? Fine, how about you give up your job and we get back into the dowry system? Some man will be only too happy to pay for you obligatorily if that's the way you want it. Of course your home and sexual duties and expectations will be undergoing a radical retro reconstruction as well...

Otherwise what justification does any woman with a job feel in being entitled to having somebody pay her way?


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jaquen said:


> I'm happy to pay for a woman, but I wouldn't date a woman who expected me to always pay. That sense of entitlement in a modern, western nation doesn't appeal to me.
> 
> My wife has paid for plenty of dates, long before we were married. It's always been like that with us. Very grateful to have a woman who didn't feel the need to draw such strict gender lines when it came to this subject. That just made me desire to take care of her more.


:iagree:

I also am happy to pay. Just not for a self centered entitlement princess. 
I'm happy to pay for someone appreciative and at the very least, would give me a shoulder rub at the end of the night


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Some men would just not feel right not paying. And it does not mean they expect more than the pleasure of her company, either.


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Otherwise what justification does any woman with a job feel in being entitled to having somebody pay her way?


I'm female and I don't think there's any justification for any women not to pay her own way. I was raised by a mother who taught her female children to have self-respect and always be in a position to support themselves so that they were never in a position of weakness or subservience. Being financially independent is about having dignity and self-worth in my family...especially for females.

I do agree with the other posters that its just about manners with regard to dating. If you ask someone out, pay for it. If someone else invites you out...they should have the manners to pay for it...although there's nothing wrong with suggesting that you could help with the bill.

I'm getting married in a month. Its my 2nd marriage. I can tell you one thing that I learned is to have the money discussion early on. I wouldn't marry a man that isn't extremely financially self-sufficient and I have the same expectation in myself. Early on, we had a financial discussion and long before my fiancé proposed, he knew my total financial status including my credit rating and vice versa. We discuss our life style expectations as much as we discuss everything else. It makes me feel very secure and happy to know I'm marrying someone with the same work ethnic and money morality that I have.

One thing I can tell you is that quality isn't easy to find. Its easy to find a bunch of bubble-headed females looking for a handout...that's why they're single. 

Take your time and wait until you find a woman who meets your expectations. Financial compatibility is one of the main compatibility factors and you have to be patient to find the right person.

In general, there's too many women sitting around waiting for someone to pay for everything....stay away from those kind.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

When we were dating, I made an order of magnitude more than my now husband. I paid.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Hmm, it's weird for me.

While I was raised more on the old school side (male pays) I'm pretty contemporary in my views on this type of thing.

I often pay for stuff and mostly always paid for stuff when we first got together but since we've been together she's become more and more successful in her career and is almost eager to pay for stuff.
I think a part of her is trying to pay me back /pull her own weight and she takes pride in that so I have backed off on ALWAYS grabbing the check or paying the bill.

The weird part is that I do have that bit of old school ingrained in me and feel just the slightest pang of guilt when she's paying for anything truly costly.

The essential point about me paying has always been "Do I feel used?"

She's never given me a reason to feel like I have so my paying for stuff has always just been part of the way I support the relationship while she (when she had less money) supported it in various other ways.

Even when using "my" money to pay for things she was always asking and informing me of what she was doing to the point I often had to tell her to just do it because a lot of the stuff being purchased wasn't a big deal.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> Some men would just not feel right not paying. And it does not mean they expect more than the pleasure of her company, either.


I wouldn't expect more either. ( and I was kidding about the shoulder rub )

But funny you should mention that. I was involved in a discussion about that. Not that paying for the date means the man should get more out of it.

But it was asked if the man pays for the date, what considerations does he get?

One woman answered, "the pleasure of my company". And I'm thinking, "uh, don't you get the pleasure of his company too? Or is the pleasure all his?"


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> Some men would just not feel right not paying. And it does not mean they expect more than the pleasure of her company, either.


If she really enjoyed her time with him, then she could take initiative, invite him over, surprise him with a homemade meal ..if things are flowing nicely.. it should bounce back & forth like that... it's very encouraging.. then neither would feel taken advantage of while getting to know each other better...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

We just never thought in those quid pro quo terms. I had money. He didn't. Then he had money, and I didn't. We enjoyed each other


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think my husband ever saw it that way, vell. 

Then again, we last dated 22 years ago. Who knows how we would find things out there if either one of us died suddenly and the other had some interest in remarrying?


----------



## Mr.D.E.B.T. (Jul 19, 2012)

These situations are not about right or wrong. You are either financially compatible with the person your dating or your not. If you find a man or woman that agrees with your beliefs about dating and money, keep dating him or her. If not, cut it off now, unless it's just casual dating.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> If the woman wants you to pay for everything well they have a term for that.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I'm shocked at some of these posts. My husband never expected me to pay, he happily paid for everything and I was very appreciative and thanked him for it.

But apparently I'm a gold digging, spoilt, self entitled princess with no self respect.

Righto.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

frusdil said:


> I'm shocked at some of these posts. My husband never expected me to pay, he happily paid for everything and I was very appreciative and thanked him for it.
> 
> But apparently I'm a gold digging, spoilt, self entitled princess with no self respect.
> 
> Righto.


Frusdil.... I love your posts. I resonate with them as well.. if you have noticed the men here will say...Listen real closely...* if the woman shows appreciation for what the man does.. it goes a long way*.. if she acts like it's expected-like he should be honored by her presence...this takes something away.. it's all about the attitude...

*You sound a very loving giving woman, who would show that appreciation... *

I am this way as well.. Oh heavens yes ! I will go out of my way to show some gratitude.. heck in this cold unforgiving world, when you find someone willing and happy to be good to you... you don't take advantage of it !! and if you are feeling something , some chemistry.. even more so [email protected]#..

This is all men are looking for.. so I feel.. 

Am I wrong guys ??


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Frusdil.... I love your posts. I resonate with them as well.. if you have noticed the men here will say...Listen real closely...* if the woman shows appreciation for what the man does.. it goes a long way*.. if she acts like it's expected-like he should be honored by her presence...this takes something away.. it's all about the attitude...
> 
> *You sound a very loving giving woman, who would show that appreciation... *
> 
> ...


I remember in the 4th month of dating, my (future) husband asked how much I made (salary, I guess). He claimed that he was used to women paying for dates. Turns out, that his just a friend ex had told him (while he closed her 3 figure bar tabs) that he should make me pay. 

Glad we got that one straightened out.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Am I wrong guys ??


Not wrong at all.
Bullseye actually.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Frusdil.... I love your posts. I resonate with them as well.. if you have noticed the men here will say...Listen real closely...* if the woman shows appreciation for what the man does.. it goes a long way*.. if she acts like it's expected-like he should be honored by her presence...this takes something away.. it's all about the attitude...
> 
> *You sound a very loving giving woman, who would show that appreciation... *
> 
> ...


Aw thankyou SA, I appreciate that 

I am so lucky to have my wonderful husband, and I never take him for granted - he actually said that to me the other night, lol. I know how lucky I am and tell him so all the time. He loves it


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Ug. This continues to be a problem for me.
> 
> So I started off offering to pay half. Some guys split it, others said they'd get it and I'd offer to leave a tip or if we had plans for dinner and a movie or some other activity, I'd offer to pay for the other thing. I always thanked them for the date in general and said I enjoyed meeting them, etc.
> 
> ...



I personally never liked to split the bill. I get this time you get next time. If a income disparity exists , let's say I make more, then I offer to take care of dinner and you get the move type thing, If you split things down the middle that just too much work.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

thefam said:


> Not all women are coming from the same place with this issue. Personally I have seen many women spend money on men in order to buy their love. Or like NTA says, men expecting some women to pay while freely paying for others.
> 
> I WAS an immature young girl when I started dating my H but he was much more mature and had been around the block quite a few times. He never asked nor expected me to pay for any dates. The only time I paid was when I invited him out for his birthday. Early on he made it clear that he was not looking for me to spend any money on him. We both have a more traditional view of gender roles even though I am 29 and he is 34. We are not isolated in those views.
> 
> I sometimes feel like TAMers are from one planet and I'm from another when some of these views are expected to be the accepted view. A lot of TAM views are foreign to my sphere of influence.


I share your feeling anytime I or others share a more conservative view on here. I wonder where the heck these people come from or if they actually believe the stuff they type.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

frusdil said:


> I'm shocked at some of these posts. My husband never expected me to pay, he happily paid for everything and I was very appreciative and thanked him for it.
> 
> But apparently I'm a gold digging, spoilt, self entitled princess with no self respect.
> 
> Righto.


I really think some of this needs to be put into perspective though. If you were dating in your early 20's , college days perhaps, a great date was a movie and a pizza. Could all be done for 20 $. When I was courting my x wife I paid for everything I could but dates were super cheap at it was a lot of fast food and renting a video....yes I said video I'm old now lol

Fast forward and I'm in my 40's. I have two kids, mortgage, and x wife .women I am dating also have the same financial responsibilities. So both parties should contribute to dating because both have a lot more financial responsibility in my opinion.

And yes I have met some absolute gold digging Women who were only interested in what I could give them financially and not dating. That's why I always recommend cheap or free dates to the newly single. Better than being used.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

happy84 said:


> Just to answer the OP topic; just my 2 cents, my viewpoint only.
> What ever float your boat. Do whatever make you and your date happy. Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> I "go Dutch" style with my then boyfriend, now husband. We would go Dutch; or one date I pay, next date he pay. He got no problem with me want it like this, or else he wouldn't continue dating me.
> ...


Independentgirl! What the he1l! You got married! Congrats I guess, right? Hope you worked all those side issues out with his peeps and what not? 

So did you just decide quickly to just do it? Share!


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

frusdil said:


> Aw thankyou SA, I appreciate that
> 
> I am so lucky to have my wonderful husband, and I never take him for granted - he actually said that to me the other night, lol. I know how lucky I am and tell him so all the time. He loves it


hey JLD, SA, and Frusdil, do you think it's a coincidence that we are all SAHMs? Another "dated" concept on TAM. LOL! Although SA it seems you may be working now from some other post of yours that i read?


----------



## Angelou (Oct 21, 2014)

When we were dating my husband always wanted to pay and he would. I would offer and he wouldn't let me. After a while, here and there he started to say ok but not pay the full check. Now it's a different story haha.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Good gravy dude. Tell you what. PM me and I'll take you out on a date and pay for it. I might expect a kiss afterwards though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

jld said:


> Some men would just not feel right not paying. And it does not mean they expect more than the pleasure of her company, either.



Of course.

My question is why don't more women, in a post-feminist movement world, "not feel right" about always being paid for? What does any woman really have to offer that's worth that kind of entitlement?



NobodySpecial said:


> We just never thought in those quid pro quo terms. I had money. He didn't. Then he had money, and I didn't. We enjoyed each other


That's exactly how we were. Whoever had it, had it.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

When I was in school going on a date my Mother would give always give me money just in case. She told me to offer and not be caught without any cash if he wanted to split it but that they usually wouldn't take it anyway. If I was dating again I would do the same thing. 
If I was paying I would want to be involved in the plans though. Don't take me to some fancy place I can't afford and expect me to blow my budget on a plate of food. If you want to go fancy, you can pay for it. If you want help with the bill, we go somewhere in my price range.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Of course.
> 
> My question is why don't more women, in a post-feminist movement world, "not feel right" about always being paid for? What does any woman really have to offer that's worth that kind of entitlement?
> 
> ...


What do you mean by post feminist? Given the very different interpretations of the word? 

I have paid for things in relationships in the past. It wasn't all it's cracked up to be.


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

jaquen said:


> My question is why don't more women, in a post-feminist movement world, "not feel right" about always being paid for? What does any woman really have to offer that's worth that kind of entitlement?


Because feminism is about choices and rights. You can choose to date a man who wants to pay for dates, you can choose to stay home and marry a man who will be the provider. You can choose not to vote. You have these as _choices _ and not forced on us because we have rights. 

Men also have choices. If they want to date a woman who pays or be a SAHD, they can now too. 

Forcing women into new modern roles in this "post-feminism" world would be just as bad as when women were forced into more traditional ones before it. Now every woman can choose. Traditional, modern, a mix of the two. You can want women to have the right to earn enough money to live on and pay for their own dates without choosing to do it yourself.


----------



## Workathome (Aug 30, 2014)

rep said:


> If I take her and her son out,, your talking $60 for meal. Movies are more.. And to go out for drinks is even more. I have yet to have one women offer to contribute.
> Do men budget for this???


Why in the world are you taking someone's child out for dinner?
You should not be meeting anyone's child until you are in an established relationship. I can never understand why anyone would introduce someone they are casually dating to their children.

I would wait at least 4-6 months before meeting someone's child. When I was a kid, my Mom dated a lot and every time I got to really like Uncle Rep, the relationship would end. It's very difficult for a child, especially after going through the divorce process.

I got divorced when my daughter 6 months old, and started dating again when she was 2. I started dating my current husband when my daughter was 5 1/2. She did not meet him until we had been dating 5 months. We were married a year later. He NEVER spent the night at my house if my daughter was home.

If anyone has any question about how their child feels about meeting people they are dating, free to reach out to me. I can tell you all about how your kids might be feeling.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

frusdil said:


> I'm shocked at some of these posts. My husband never expected me to pay, he happily paid for everything and I was very appreciative and thanked him for it.
> 
> But apparently I'm a gold digging, spoilt, self entitled princess with no self respect.
> 
> Righto.


Wrongo. YOU were appreciative of it. I think where most of the comments are coming from are about women who EXPECT to be paid for and think the pleasure of their company is enough(not that there should be more, just speaking to the mentality)

Therefore you aren't the self entitled princess to which we speak. I know for me, I am talking about someone that wasn't appreciative like you and just EXPECTS to have everything paid for.

I take it that you don't think that you are so full of yourself that free meals are what you are owed because you are all that and any guy would be lucky to pay for that privilege? There is the difference.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Frusdil.... I love your posts. I resonate with them as well.. if you have noticed the men here will say...Listen real closely...* if the woman shows appreciation for what the man does.. it goes a long way*.. if she acts like it's expected-like he should be honored by her presence...this takes something away.. it's all about the attitude...
> 
> *You sound a very loving giving woman, who would show that appreciation... *
> 
> ...


Nope, not wrong at all. It is women with that attitude that any man should be happy to pay, and it then would be our pleasure.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Because feminism is about choices and rights. You can choose to date a man who wants to pay for dates, you can choose to stay home and marry a man who will be the provider. You can choose not to vote. You have these as _choices _ and not forced on us because we have rights.
> 
> Men also have choices. If they want to date a woman who pays or be a SAHD, they can now too.
> 
> Forcing women into new modern roles in this "post-feminism" world would be just as bad as when women were forced into more traditional ones before it. Now every woman can choose. Traditional, modern, a mix of the two. You can want women to have the right to earn enough money to live on and pay for their own dates without choosing to do it yourself.


Oh I agree. That was the original, and necessary, scope of the first wave of the contemporary feminist movement.

But lets get real. Many traditional women are stigmatized by plenty of women who label themselves as feminists. Women who make the choice to stay at home and work domestically for their families are radically stigmatized as being mars on the movement. Just as women who chose to do sex work, exotic dancing, etc are also seen as embarrassments by lots of feminists. The movement has splintered and in some ways devolved since the early days for the fight for choice. Lots of women are left out in the cold. 

There are very sound reasons why a man was going to pay in the past. However now? With so many women working outside of the home, and the pay gap the smallest it's ever been, please justify how a working woman can go to dinner with a man and NOT pay sometimes? It's one thing if he refuses to take it, it's another not to sincerely offer and expect to pay sometimes. If she went out to lunch with her female friend, would she expect the working female friend to pay exclusively, simply for the pleasure of her company?

How can a woman, in right conscience, claim to be traditional in this one thing, the one thing that works in her financial favor, yet be liberal in all other things? What's the justification I am asking? Why is any person owed or entitled to free meals, drinks and paid activities simply because they have a vagina?


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

thefam said:


> hey JLD, SA, and Frusdil, do you think it's a coincidence that we are all SAHMs? Another "dated" concept on TAM. LOL! Although SA it seems you may be working now from some other post of yours that i read?


Contributing just 5% of our families income is just putting gas in our gas hogging suburban, allows us to eat out more, a little longer vacations maybe.. 

It's nothing I could support myself on,* I am dependent on my H in every way*...so yeah..*.I completely identify with the stay at Home moms... I really am one !*...I have no need for him to help me around the house spitting chores or anything like this... I guess that's my take on it..  

The traditional lifestyle.. Traditional men/ Traditionally geared women ...*who enjoy it* *and would CHOOSE it*....this is what is outdated...we are the "dinosaurs" in our modern world..

It has it's risks, but we have chosen to take them.... Life is a risk and we all take various risks every day ... Sometimes the Pros out weight the cons when you put it all together, that's how we both feel anyway... ...it's our RISKS to take.. if it all falls apart, I can only blame myself... I'm good with that.

What is hardest for me is when I feel others look down on it. and I am unrelateable I guess, or in another class.. a much lower one.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

It does seem to me, on this thread at least, that all the men who provided for their dates were apparently on the marriage track. snce posters only refer to experiences with their future husbands.

Admittedly, I wouldn't feel good about expecting a guy to pay for me if I were not in an exclusive relationship with him/


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

your going to pay one way or another.

The key is to find one that you don't mind paying for just because she is a good woman.

so whats a good women
1)someone who respects your opinion
2)someone who you respect their opinion ....not because your being polite but because it a good opinion
3)someone who truly desires you ....finds you sexy 
4)someone you find sexy
4)someone whos a team player 
5)someone who doesn't roll their eyes and act pi$$y when they don't get their way
6)someone you want to spend time with just because they are fun to be with their personality is of such nature that you want to spend time with them......not just spending time with them because they are pretty and you want a piece later. 
7) someone you could trust you biggest secrets with.
8)someone of good fair standards 

any woman who meets these is worth as much as I could possibly afford!!!!!!!! and more.

But would want to be fair and pull her own weight for to good of the relationship.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

thefam said:


> hey JLD, SA, and Frusdil, do you think it's a coincidence that we are all SAHMs? Another "dated" concept on TAM. LOL! Although SA it seems you may be working now from some other post of yours that i read?


I'm a SAHW. In fact, some documentation has come through that will now allow me to work. I remarked that we're in non English speaking country, maybe I could ease back into work teaching English.

My husband reminded me that if I don't want to work, I don't have to work.

I suspect now that during that period when my (future) husband was nickling and diming me, he only saw me as a way to kill time while he was waiting on his just a friend ex.

When I gave him the "well I won't be keeping you if you have to keep her around" the changes for the better were immediate.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

A lot of interesting points were brought up. I liked some of them. 

But I am going to say, let's be more realistic. 

I am 22, and have been on dates with 3 separate women. Or girls, depending on what age you consider a girl a woman. 
I had to do all the asking. Some were more forward than others about whether or not they were interested in me. But when it came down to the asking, I had to do it. 
Since I had to ask, I had to pay for the date. 

After the initial dates, some more than others, they would occasionally text me about something they want to do. It usually involved something at a bar. 
Who paid for that? Me. 
And who drove there? Me. With my gas. Again, not cheap. 

Girls *expect* to be asked out, and have their dates paid for. 
They have the choice to ask a man out, and pay for the date. From my, and my male friends' experience, they rarely exercise it.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Broken at 20 said:


> A lot of interesting points were brought up. I liked some of them.
> 
> But I am going to say, let's be more realistic.
> 
> ...


Every guy I ever approached first and asked on a date I never had even a dating relationship with him; let alone an LTR.

Ergo, I stopped asking guys out.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Also one night, after like...a couple or 6 drinks, when I wasn't drunk but tipsy and stupid enough, I tried this









She said no. 

I did have a guy buy me a drink once though. 
told me to stop by a restaurant he owns with my friends sometime though. So I think it was to drum up some business, and not...pat my ass. 
I hope...


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Perhaps we guys can have dates write a short essay on why they deserve to be wined and dined


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Every guy I ever approached first and asked on a date I never had even a dating relationship with him; let alone an LTR.
> 
> Ergo, I stopped asking guys out.


Were you looking for a relationship? Or LTR? 

Also, is the fault of the guys? Or the type of guys you asked out? 
Just like I can't complain about going to Disney movies or paying for a baby sitter if I were to say, date a single mother?

Just sayin. 



vellocet said:


> Perhaps we guys can have dates write a short essay on why they deserve to be wined and dined


I feel like that is getting dangerously close to those ads certain...people make about why you should spend an hour of your time with them...
You know the ones...


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Broken at 20 said:


> Were you looking for a relationship? Or LTR?
> 
> *Also, is the fault of the guys? Or the type of guys you asked out?*
> Just like I can't complain about going to Disney movies or paying for a baby sitter if I were to say, date a single mother?
> ...


There's the general wisdom that if a guy is interested, he will ask you out. If he is not interested, he won't ask you out. So a woman trying to help things along by asking him out isn't going to change the way he feels.

Given my romantic resume, the above wisdom definitely applies to my experiences.

As for protesting the cost of paying for a babysitter, well you could date only child free women. You're young enough that most women should be child free.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Well I'm sure it happens, but I can't for the life of me want to believe there would be a woman that would walk up to a guy at a bar and say, "buy me a drink?"

That's some balls. I think my response to that brazen behavior would have to be, "what do I get out of it?"

If she said, "the pleasure of my company" ...then I'd just have to look at her with puppy dog eyes and say, "buh bye". I don't waste my time with conceited women.


----------



## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

I have no problem with equally splitting who pays for dates as long as there is not a HUGE income discrepancy. For example, I am currently on layoff from my seasonal job. My employer screwed up my layoff paperwork so that I didn't qualify for unemployment. Therefore I am hurting for cash. If I were dating (which I'm not) I would NEED the man to pay. However I can't imagine dating a man who didn't know me well enough to already realize I was unemployed at the time he asked me out. Heck even my male friends who I hang out with tend to pay for my meals and drinks because they know I'm broke. And they're NOT looking to get anything out of it because most of them are gay.

However, if I were seriously dating someone on a regular basis, probably we would eat out quite often at the restaurant where I work during the "warmer" months. We get a huge employee discount that means a meal for 4 people costs about $15.

I would never take my kids on a date with me. However if it got serious I would expect that at some point that the guy would want to spend time getting to know them and I don't mean just at my home. Carnivals, parades, school events, etc. But I would never expect him to pay for them. Although if it got really serious he would have to know he'd be partially supporting them at some point if we decided to get married, since I would never marry a man who wouldn't be willing to fully adopt them.

But if a 6 figure income corporate executive wants to start dating a local waitress, I think he'd better expect to pay most of the time.


----------



## waylan (Apr 23, 2014)

I think you are missing the point which is the paradox of modern living. Do you agree that men and women should be payed equally for the doing the same work with the same skill? If the answer is yes, how can it be remotely fair that the expectation is the the man pay for everything? Sounds like financial cake eating to me... 



frusdil said:


> I'm shocked at some of these posts. My husband never expected me to pay, he happily paid for everything and I was very appreciative and thanked him for it.
> 
> But apparently I'm a gold digging, spoilt, self entitled princess with no self respect.
> 
> Righto.


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> But lets get real. Many traditional women are stigmatized by plenty of women who label themselves as feminists. Women who make the choice to stay at home and work domestically for their families are radically stigmatized as being mars on the movement. Just as women who chose to do sex work, exotic dancing, etc are also seen as embarrassments by lots of feminists. The movement has splintered and in some ways devolved since the early days for the fight for choice. Lots of women are left out in the cold.


I'm a feminist and I look down on only one type of woman and that's the type that doesn't THINK.

Feminism is a very simple concept. It means that you believe that women should be able to make choices.

However, that doesn't mean that there aren't stupid choices and smart choices. For instance, if you stay at home and aren't prepared in the event of a life tragedy...death, divorce, etc...and you have kids, you are not making smart choices. Do whatever you want but if you make stupid choices and your husband leaves you and you're stuck with no education and no job prospects and have limited alimony (because they're cutting back on that since women have the right to work)....tough luck. You made your bed, lie in it. I have zero sympathy for broke women after divorce or death if its through the lack of thought or planning.

I have one friend that quit her career to stay home but she's smart...she saved money, she has an education, and she networks to keep her contacts current in less she ever needed a job. I'd hire her in a second...she's a brilliant woman who simply decided that she wanted to stay home and be a mom first. I have nothing but respect for that.

If I wanted to, I could ask my fiancé to pay my way through life. He loves me and would be more than happy to do it but I'm a adult woman who learned early on that taking care of myself gave me a great sense of empowerment and pride. I have zero interest in living off a guy...that's my choice and I'm glad for it. My partner loves how independent I am...he's not just my rock...I'm his. That's what real partnership means to me and its what being a mother means to me. That under any circumstance, I can take care of my offspring financially. I love my kids and I have a duty to ensure their care.

In general, men should pick women that are smart and make smart choices that they have financial compatibility with. If you want a woman that pays her own way...don't settle for anything less. There's a lot of women out there who take pride in being financially independent...wait for one of those.

I don't have sons but if I did, I'd warn them endlessly about women who are looking for someone to pay their way through life. I know there's a group of women on here who will criticize that comment but its true. I know wayyyy too many men who've gotten screwed supporting some uneducated, unskilled woman after divorce for years and years and years.


----------



## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

If you are willing to Invest your time (the most valuable thing you possess), the cost of the outing is pretty small beans. 

If you are offended by paying for the cost of feeding and/or entertaining a lady...by all means, don't do it. 

IMO...you are worrying over the wrong thing. If you wouldn't spend dollars on a date...why in the heck would you waste TIME with her?

Once you find a woman that truly engages you -the dollars are no longer of consequence. It's about the time spent together -both investing in the other the most valuable thing each could ever posses. There is a finite quantity of it for each party -and once expended -it can never be recovered.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Wrongo. YOU were appreciative of it. I think where most of the comments are coming from are about women who EXPECT to be paid for and think the pleasure of their company is enough(not that there should be more, just speaking to the mentality)
> 
> Therefore you aren't the self entitled princess to which we speak. I know for me, I am talking about someone that wasn't appreciative like you and just EXPECTS to have everything paid for.
> 
> I take it that you don't think that you are so full of yourself that free meals are what you are owed because you are all that and any guy would be lucky to pay for that privilege? There is the difference.


Thankyou for saying that, I appreciate it. No, I definitely don't think I'm all that and owed anything at all 

I am a very lucky woman to be married to my hubby - I still pinch myself sometimes...men like him happen to other women, not to me! Lol!

I got courted, romanced and I still get taken care of. He gets treated like a king (as he deserves, he's a good man) and I do all I can to make his life easier and he loves that. He also gets a devoted wife who loves his child as her own and is dedicated to helping him raise her into a lovely young woman - not a bad trade off


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> I really think some of this needs to be put into perspective though. If you were dating in your early 20's , college days perhaps, a great date was a movie and a pizza. Could all be done for 20 $. When I was courting my x wife I paid for everything I could but dates were super cheap at it was a lot of fast food and renting a video....yes I said video I'm old now lol
> 
> Fast forward and I'm in my 40's. I have two kids, mortgage, and x wife .women I am dating also have the same financial responsibilities. So both parties should contribute to dating because both have a lot more financial responsibility in my opinion.
> 
> *And yes I have met some absolute gold digging Women who were only interested in what I could give them financially and not dating.* That's why I always recommend cheap or free dates to the newly single. Better than being used.


I'm sorry that happened to you, that stinks. There certainly some gold digging women out there...there's good and bad in both camps I guess 

I think a lot of it also comes down to whether a man thinks a woman he's dating is worth investing in (as opposed to spending money on...big difference). If he thinks she is, I don't think he'd object to paying on dates


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

MarriedDude said:


> If you are willing to Invest your time (the most valuable thing you possess), the cost of the outing is pretty small beans.


False. 

I took a girl out a few Saturdays ago. 
Dinner at a Chinese place by school. $20
Drinks at a bar with some music. $120 

Total comes to $140

Date was 6 hours. 
Working to get that much? After taxes, maybe 17-20 hours. 

If instead I had taken her to Taco Bell and a movie, it would have been $30. 
3 hours work. 

The cost is VERY important according to your logic, because your time is needed to finance the date.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Broken at 20 said:


> False.
> 
> I took a girl out a few Saturdays ago.
> Dinner at a Chinese place by school. $20
> ...


I do sympathise with you. It's hard starting out. I'm assuming you you're in your 20s due to your name.

I would suggest that you look around your city and try to find the cheaper things to do. USD120 for drinks is indeed expensive. This is also the advantage of being a one woman man. The right woman will be sensitive to your budget and probably will also look around for the free fun things to do.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> I do sympathise with you. It's hard starting out. I'm assuming you you're in your 20s due to your name.
> 
> I would suggest that you look around your city and try to find the cheaper things to do. USD120 for drinks is indeed expensive. This is also the advantage of being a one woman man. *The right woman will be sensitive to your budget and probably will also look around for the free fun things to do.*


Very true. If she's whining that you don't take her on expensive dates all the time she's the wrong woman.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I wouldn't want a woman to pay. I'd probably never hear the end of it.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I do sympathise with you. It's hard starting out. I'm assuming you you're in your 20s due to your name.
> 
> I would suggest that you look around your city and try to find the cheaper things to do. USD120 for drinks is indeed expensive. *This is also the advantage of being a one woman man.* The right woman will be sensitive to your budget and probably will also look around for the free fun things to do.


Lol.

I am flattered you think I am so awesome, I could actually carry on dates with 3 women at the same time. 

But I am not. 

the three women I referred to dating have never been at the same time. 

The first one was a really fun girl. Until I found out she had kids. I kept my distance. Then when I began to see she was using me to help her do an accounting project for a class I had already taken, and on top of that, boning some other guy, I cut her out of my life entirely. 

Second girl was just a friend that decided to give me a chance. See if we had some chemistry or...mutual attraction. Or whatever women look for in a man. And $250-ish later, she decided I wasn't right. So yea...

Third girl is someone from one of my classes. And she hasn't F-ed me over yet so...well, unless you count Saturday maybe. But...whatever


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Two tickets to Pippin, $250; meal, $80. But she has to drive because I don't like driving at night anymore.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

frusdil said:


> I'm sorry that happened to you, that stinks. There certainly some gold digging women out there...there's good and bad in both camps I guess
> 
> I think a lot of it also comes down to whether a man thinks a woman he's dating is worth investing in (as opposed to spending money on...big difference). If he thinks she is, I don't think he'd object to paying on dates


I dont mind paying for my fair share so long as i dont feel like a walking wallet. I want to know thats she is more invested in the investiment of time rather than money.

You're correct that good and bad in both camps. I dont want to be used for money anymore than a woman wants to be used for sex takes alot of weeding to find the berry as my grandfather used to say


----------



## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

Broken at 20 said:


> False.
> 
> I took a girl out a few Saturdays ago.
> Dinner at a Chinese place by school. $20
> ...


In terms of life a.k.a "time" -(brief as it is) -it is wasteful to equate it with dollars. Dollars will never measure up to the value of YOUR time....to explain: 

The time that you spend at work is a sunk cost -In the world today (as always) -if you want to be eat -you have to work. That time will be expended at work -whether or not you ever go on a date. 

The time spent not at work, or taking care of yourself or other family members, or spent taking care of day to day life needs -the total "free" time you have in your life is *VERY*. limited. Hence -very valuable. I would argue it is the most valuable thing you have -or will ever have. What you choose to spend that small amount of time doing -or not doing -defines you as a person -your hopes -dreams -aspirations -and of course, expectations. By examining it you will be able to find out that which is most important to you. That is what I mean by Valuable. 

This clearer understanding of what in life actually has value, comes with experience. I remember 25 years ago when I labored for small dollars very well. It was hard -but necessary. In time a person takes the culmination of those experiences and weighs them to scale out and answer the most important question....What.Do.I.Want? Perspective is required to do this. Perspective is required to understand both question and answer. 

Right now -you feel that the $140- was expensive and weigh it's value by the labor expended to earn it. But what if that young lady that you spent time with (and $140. of your hard earned capital)- became your wife -spent 50 years with you -was a thoughtful, kind, loyal and loving partner -became your definition of love- bore your children and watched with you as they grew -and you experienced the pride and joy of their success. With that perspective -what would be more valuable? The $140....the 17 hours it took to earn it....or the 6 hours of time invested that ultimately helped to define your life and create life for others?

I would venture that neither the money spent or the time spent earning it would come close to value received for the 6 hour investment of time with this young lady. 

Just food for thought. I know when bills are due, money is tight and stress is high -it's hard to take a long view. But it is so VERY worthwhile.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Oh I agree. That was the original, and necessary, scope of the first wave of the contemporary feminist movement.
> 
> But lets get real. Many traditional women are stigmatized by plenty of women who label themselves as feminists. Women who make the choice to stay at home and work domestically for their families are radically stigmatized as being mars on the movement. Just as women who chose to do sex work, exotic dancing, etc are also seen as embarrassments by lots of feminists. The movement has splintered and in some ways devolved since the early days for the fight for choice. Lots of women are left out in the cold.


I am a feminist and have lots of feminist friends and all of us at one time or another have been SAHM etc at one point or another and some longer than others. 

I don't see women who do sex work as embarrassments, I actually find women who do sex work are often ridiculed by non feminist men and women who describe them as slu*ts etc. 
personally I find the men who use sex workers to be revolting and they are real embarrassment to society for a variety of reasons... But sex workers nope. 

I don't know any women or men that are left out in the cold by feminism. I find this post to farcical and absurd. 




> There are very sound reasons why a man was going to pay in the past. However now? With so many women working outside of the home, and the pay gap the smallest it's ever been, please justify how a working woman can go to dinner with a man and NOT pay sometimes? It's one thing if he refuses to take it, it's another not to sincerely offer and expect to pay sometimes. If she went out to lunch with her female friend, would she expect the working female friend to pay exclusively, simply for the pleasure of her company?


The pay gap is still very large. 

However if you don't want to pay, don't! If I want to date only men that pay- I will. See how choice is a beautiful thing. 

Also my friends and I tend to generously pay for each other when one has more and it all works out in the end. 



> How can a woman, in right conscience, claim to be traditional in this one thing, the one thing that works in her financial favor, yet be liberal in all other things? What's the justification I am asking? Why is any person owed or entitled to free meals, drinks and paid activities simply because they have a vagina


Why is any man entitled to extra wages and more opportunities and life chances because of a penis? 

I'm so glad you don't feel that what's between your legs should = entitlement. That's why feminism is so important and there is still a very long way to go for women.


----------



## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I am a feminist and have lots of feminist friends and all of us at one time or another have been SAHM etc at one point or another and some longer than others.
> 
> *I don't see women who do sex work as embarrassments, I actually find women who do sex work are often ridiculed by non feminist men and women who describe them as slu*ts etc.
> personally I find the men who use sex workers to be revolting and they are real embarrassment to society for a variety of reasons... But sex workers nope. *
> ...


----------



## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Wow.

What the hell are you people doing?

This thread isn't sexist enough. Quit slacking.

I have always paid for dates. I expect to pay for dates. I have no issue paying for dates. I have had women pay for dates, and split dates.

Why am I eager to pay for dates? 

Two words.

Fell ratios.


----------



## HopefulHusband8 (Feb 11, 2015)

Do coffee dates first and pay and if you see the relationship going, then pay for dinner but after that, you should expect her to chip in half. If women want equality, they have to accept ALL aspects of it.


----------



## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

MarriedDude said:


> In terms of life a.k.a "time" -(brief as it is) -it is wasteful to equate it with dollars. Dollars will never measure up to the value of YOUR time....to explain:
> 
> The time that you spend at work is a sunk cost -In the world today (as always) -if you want to be eat -you have to work. That time will be expended at work -whether or not you ever go on a date.
> 
> ...


Probably a bad time to say I don't believe in marriage (IRONY for being on this website, right!?), or love, or trusting people. Nor do I want kids... 

But I do see your point. It would be nice for that to all become true some day, and dream. But again, just a dream. 
I hadn't thought of it like that. 

But I refuse to admit the entire cost of a date was only 6 hours. If I still had the $140, I could have...bought copious amounts of alcohol! Or...I don't know. Save it. 

But you do have a valid point. I appreciate it.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

MarriedDude said:


> IWith that perspective -what would be more valuable? The $140....the 17 hours it took to earn it....or the 6 hours of time invested that ultimately helped to define your life and create life for others?


I like your thinking... the value of time.

However, I also couldn't resist posting this.

Comedy clip - First Dates


----------



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

frusdil said:


> I'm sorry that happened to you, that stinks. There certainly some gold digging women out there...there's good and bad in both camps I guess
> 
> I think a lot of it also comes down to whether a man thinks a woman he's dating is worth investing in (as opposed to spending money on...big difference). If he thinks she is, I don't think he'd object to paying on dates


Then why couldn't it be?:

"I think a lot of it also comes down to whether a *WOMAN* thinks a *MAN* *SHE'S* dating is worth investing in (as opposed to spending money on...big difference). If *SHE* thinks *HE* is, I don't think *SHE'D* object to paying on dates "

I'm married, middle-aged, and out of this game, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But I have seen a couple of posts with this viewpoint (i.e., guys should be willing to make the investment), but no comment on the reverse.


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I don't mind paying occasionally, or spending my money on them by staying in and cooking (a nice dinner in can cost quite a bit, too!) and I'm also fine with less expensive options - in fact a creative date is GREAT.


Loved your post Enjoli.

One of the stand-out dates for me with my husband 'back in the day' was when he invited me over and said he'd cook us dinner. I was smitten... not only that he could cook but that he wanted to cook for me. There was something very intimate about that. Only problem is, when I tried to return that sentiment, he realized what a lousy cook I was haha. Entertaining at home though, can still cost when it's a nice dinner, you're right. 

I've no idea about being single... there's cobwebs covering a vague memory of such a time, but as for paying the bill at dinner, with family or friends, on occasion we'll pick up the tab - that behind the scenes way - so that when the evening is done and someone says 'Let's get the bill' the response is 'It's already taken care of, all good..' Then it's just done and done. Sometimes hubs and I will do this with one another despite sharing finances.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

HopefulHusband8 said:


> Do coffee dates first and pay and if you see the relationship going, then pay for dinner but after that, you should expect her to chip in half. If women want equality, they have to accept ALL aspects of it.


Does that mean that the pay gap between men and women is now going to disappear?


----------



## Wolfman1968 (Jun 9, 2011)

frusdil said:


> I'm shocked at some of these posts. My husband never expected me to pay, he happily paid for everything and I was very appreciative and thanked him for it.
> 
> But apparently I'm a gold digging, spoilt, self entitled princess with no self respect.
> 
> Righto.


Well, in the old days of my youth, a young woman could make simple gestures to show that she was not a "gold digging, spoilt, self entitled princess with no self respect" even with the guy paying for the "outside" dates. 

The young woman would have her beau over to her home for a "home-cooked meal" (as they called it). If she had craft skills such as knitting, she might make a gift for him. She wouldn't demand to be entertained with expensive, elaborate dates---because she was more interested in being with him than in what he could give her---and would spend times together on walks, simple picnics, "house dates", etc. 

Not every woman who has her way paid for on a date is a "gold digging, spoilt self entitled princess with no self respect." Make no mistake, they are out there (and maybe more than there used to be, as I think the entire younger generation is more self-entitled). However, I think the gold digging princesses would be less content for the simple dates or less likely to reciprocate in other ways, like young women of past days did.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

'CuseGal said:


> I have no problem with equally splitting who pays for dates as long as there is not a HUGE income discrepancy. For example, I am currently on layoff from my seasonal job. My employer screwed up my layoff paperwork so that I didn't qualify for unemployment. Therefore I am hurting for cash. If I were dating (which I'm not) I would NEED the man to pay. However I can't imagine dating a man who didn't know me well enough to already realize I was unemployed at the time he asked me out. Heck even my male friends who I hang out with tend to pay for my meals and drinks because they know I'm broke. And they're NOT looking to get anything out of it because most of them are gay.
> 
> However, if I were seriously dating someone on a regular basis, probably we would eat out quite often at the restaurant where I work during the "warmer" months. We get a huge employee discount that means a meal for 4 people costs about $15.
> 
> ...


This is why I like the idea that the person who asks the other out pays.


The person with little cash can plan dates that are low cost.. some of these can be the best dates... like a picnic down by the river, a hike in the mountains.

The person who has more cash has the option of taking their date out to a place they can afford it. And of course the person with more cash can also chose to do low cost dates as well.

This way, each person can date within their own means.

I've heard horror stories of people going on Dutch dates... the guy buys himself an expensive meal. All she can afford is a dinner salad. If I went out on a date with a guy and this was the way it went down... I'd never go out with him again. If the roles were reversed, I would not order a big meal while the guy I was with could only afford a dinner salad. To me... that shows a level of stinginess that is not acceptable.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Does that mean that the pay gap between men and women is now going to disappear?


Already is in many areas no matter how many try to spin that it isn't


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Wolf1974 said:


> Already is in many areas no matter how many try to spin that it isn't


And in many areas it is not... no matter how many try to spin it.


----------



## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Back in the days when my husband and I were dating, I made a lot less than he made. However, I made it a point to take him out to places that he had never been. These were inexpensive places of my haunts while in high school. I paid for these dates. He enjoyed these dates as he had never been to these areas. He grew up in Ohio and moved to California. I grew up in California and we met in college in the same state.

He on the other hand, took me to expensive places where I would never go on my own. He told me that he wanted to go to these places anyway. Having me as company made it better. Where he wanted to go, he paid for these dates. Where I wanted to go, I paid for the tab. 

Our arrangement made our courtship days fun.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I'm a feminist and I look down on only one type of woman and that's the type that doesn't THINK.
> 
> Feminism is a very simple concept. It means that you believe that women should be able to make choices.
> 
> ...


You sound strangely familiar. Keep posting and I'm sure I will remember who you were in your former TAM life.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> What is hardest for me is when I feel others look down on it. and I am unrelateable I guess, or in another class.. a much lower one.


This is one of the least things that trouble me about being a SAHM, mainly because I LOVE doing this so much. Taking care of my home, my kid, my hubby brings me great fulfillment. Ive only been a SAHM for about 1.5 years but it was my H's suggestion and I was all on board.

I think what some posters may be missing is that some men want their wives to be able to focus on that supportive role so that it is easier on the household for him to excel at his career without the wife having the added stress of a career. It has nothing to do with equality or feminism at all. The extremists of femnism totally turns me off so I dont even identify myself as such.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

happy84 said:


> Hello Ms. thefam, Happy Valentine's Day to you and your husband. All the best wishes to you and the baby, wish your baby grow up healthy and pretty like mommy.
> Last time I came across your post in this forum where you share about taking care of your baby, that was how I know you have a newborn baby.
> 
> Yes, I got married with my boyfriend. My marriage was very simple and quick. I don't have an engagement ring, I don't have a wedding reception, I don't even have a honeymoon.
> ...


No, you are not lucky. Luck is fleeting and sporadic and often turns from good to bad. You and your new hubby have a chance to build a wonderful, long lasting marriage. Enjoy the honey moon phase and make it last!

Let me let you in on a secret. I had a dream/princess wedding. Not way over the top but typical big wedding spending. That stuff is WAY over rated. If I had to do it all over again, I would elope. Seriously.


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

#1 - stop dating GIRLS. Date Women, any DECENT woman will offer to pay (read : keep quiet and see if they bring this up, if they don't, recognize the person in front of you.....which is, inconsiderate and not fair). By accepting/continuing to date such person you accept that you are paying forwards......

#2 - why in the world would you date someone with their child. That's a sure sign of a "girl" and a irresponsible being. Any decent woman would NOT only bring their child but also NOT introduce ANY "new" man they hardly know for AT LEAST 6 months+ (or until relationship is serious). Again, sign of lack of maturity/ignorance and "girl".

As you can tell, the theme of my post is "shoot for equal" in your mind. If they don't offer to pay, speak up and ask them to pay their half. If they don't or are turned off > dump them like it's hot. Chances are HIGH you are in front of a spoiled/self entitled princess.

YOU DO NOT WANT THAT FOR LTR.

Good luck


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm a SAHW. In fact, some documentation has come through that will now allow me to work. I remarked that we're in non English speaking country, maybe I could ease back into work teaching English.
> 
> *My husband reminded me that if I don't want to work, I don't have to work.*


Now THAT's what I'm talking about! He must be loving what he's coming home to! I ain't mad at 'cha but Im sure some these New Age men are gritting their teeth. LOL!


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I'm a feminist and I look down on only one type of woman and that's the type that doesn't THINK.
> 
> Feminism is a very simple concept. It means that you believe that women should be able to make choices.
> 
> ...


Great post

:smthumbup:

BTW, I love Enigma (music)


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

thefam said:


> Now THAT's what I'm talking about! He must be loving what he's coming home to! I ain't mad at 'cha but Im sure some these New Age men are gritting their teeth. LOL!


Ah, yes, but I did have to endure that period where he was nickel and diming me ........wondering if still had a chance with the last one. This is why I would be very wary of a guy asking me to pay........ if I were to ever to be single again.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

DoF said:


> #1 - stop dating GIRLS. Date Women, any DECENT woman will offer to pay (read : keep quiet and see if they bring this up, if they don't, recognize the person in front of you.....which is, inconsiderate and not fair). By accepting/continuing to date such person you accept that you are paying forwards......
> 
> *#2 - why in the world would you date someone with their child. That's a sure sign of a "girl" and a irresponsible being. Any decent woman would NOT only bring their child but also NOT introduce ANY "new" man they hardly know for AT LEAST 6 months+ (or until relationship is serious). Again, sign of lack of maturity/ignorance and "girl".*
> As you can tell, the theme of my post is "shoot for equal" in your mind. If they don't offer to pay, speak up and ask them to pay their half. If they don't or are turned off > dump them like it's hot. Chances are HIGH you are in front of a spoiled/self entitled princess.
> ...


This is where I am VERY traditional. a 22 year old with a baby?!??!? was she ever married?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> And in many areas it is not... no matter how many try to spin it.


Of course. And proof is in the real world not on fantasy TAM. My female counterparts get paid EXACTlY as much as I do.

My female friend is a senior Advertising executive and outearns everyone in her field in ther area. 

My other female friend is a high school teacher earns the exact same as her male counterparts......exact same.


My mother, who was born in the 50's mind you, was the head nurse of a nursing home for 35 years. She out earned my father their entire realtionship. Entire time by double.

So no real world shows different. 

Does some wage disparity exist. I'm sure it does. As a white male I have been turned down for things because Of my race and my gender so we all feel it. But think it's as wide spread as you seem to imply. Nope. If you aren't happy the way you are treated in your Field so someplace where you are


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

thefam said:


> This is one of the least things that trouble me about being a SAHM, mainly because I LOVE doing this so much. Taking care of my home, my kid, my hubby brings me great fulfillment. Ive only been a SAHM for about 1.5 years but it was my H's suggestion and I was all on board.


I think it's wonderful that you are doing what you want to do. It's all about choice and options.



thefam said:


> I think what some posters may be missing is that some men want their wives to be able to focus on that supportive role so that it is easier on the household for him to excel at his career without the wife having the added stress of a career.


I don't think I've ever seen anyone on TAM who does not realize that some men want their wife to focus on the support SAHW/M role. Nor that some women want to fill that role. 

Again, it's all about choice and options. The trick is for men and women to know what they want in life and to find a mate who wants the same thing.

If a woman wants to be a SAHM, then it makes sense that she would be looking for a guy who will pay for all, or most dates. And if a man is looking for the SAHW/M, then it makes sense that he would want to pay for all dates.

If a women/man do not want the SAHM/W thing, then it makes sense that they would look for someone who is willing to share even in the way of financial responsibility.

There is no right or wrong. Each person has to figure this out for themselves. This translates into each couple figuring it out for themself.

The OP (Rep) is clearly not looking to support a woman. He clearly wants a woman who supports herself. So the replies were in response mostly to where he is coming from. 



thefam said:


> It has nothing to do with equality or feminism at all. The extremists of femnism totally turns me off so I dont even identify myself as such.


I'm not sure what you consider the extremes of feminism.

If a woman choses to be have a career and be self supporting and/or equally share in the financial responsibilities in her life and marriage, I'm not sure why that would turn you off.

It would not be fair if women had no options to support themselves and their families either. It is very common for women to not chose this, but to have their life circumstances put them in the position to have to do this.


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> This is where I am VERY traditional. a 22 year old with a baby?!??!? was she ever married?


Forget about the details......just run AWAY FAST


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Well I'm sure it happens, but I can't for the life of me want to believe there would be a woman that would walk up to a guy at a bar and say, "buy me a drink?"
> 
> That's some balls.


It's never happened to me either but if it did, I'd buy her the drink simply because of the guts it took to approach me with a line like that. 

That kind of confidence in a woman is sexy as hell....


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> It's never happened to me either but if it did, I'd buy her the drink simply because of the guts it took to approach me with a line like that.
> 
> That kind of confidence in a woman is sexy as hell....


Really? You like conceited women?

Confidence to come up to you and strike up a conversation, sure, that is sexy and flattering.

Coming up to me with the gall of asking me to buy her a drink when I don't know her from jack.....not. The latter is the kind of woman that a man will later on end up paying child support to.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> It's never happened to me either but if it did, I'd buy her the drink simply because of the guts it took to approach me with a line like that.
> 
> That kind of confidence in a woman is sexy as hell....


There is a certain irony to this. I get offered drinks without having to ask. 

Now who is expressing more confidence? The one who has to ask.......?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> I don't know any women or men that are left out in the cold by feminism. I find this post to farcical and absurd.


You know no human being that's left out in the cold by today's (note TODAY's) feminist movement? You must live in a lovely fairytale world where I do not. Congratulations. 





*LittleDeer* said:


> The pay gap is still very large.


The pay gap is real. "Very large" depends on what statistic you read. However even the most conservative estimates are 78 cents to the dollar. 

So, in light of this topic, I ask you why aren't working women expected to pay their own way in romantic relationship with men? 78 cents to the dollar would mean that, on average, some women would need to pay for less expensive dates than some men, but it wouldn't eradicate the practice entirely.

It's interesting that you, and several others, still refuse to answer WHY, now, in nations with working women, should any working woman be entitled to take the passive option of having somebody else front the bill for her entertainment and dining pleasure. With there more often than not being significant stigma against men who refuse, from women largely. 

Why?


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Roselyn said:


> Back in the days when my husband and I were dating, I made a lot less than he made. However, I made it a point to take him out to places that he had never been. These were inexpensive places of my haunts while in high school. I paid for these dates. He enjoyed these dates as he had never been to these areas. He grew up in Ohio and moved to California. I grew up in California and we met in college in the same state.
> 
> He on the other hand, took me to expensive places where I would never go on my own. He told me that he wanted to go to these places anyway. Having me as company made it better. Where he wanted to go, he paid for these dates. Where I wanted to go, I paid for the tab.
> 
> Our arrangement made our courtship days fun.


I love this. That's how we always were. It's refreshing to be only having this debate in theory. The reality of how we dated was just so much more palatable, and yes fun, than the typical scenario.



thefam said:


> This is one of the least things that trouble me about being a SAHM, mainly because I LOVE doing this so much. Taking care of my home, my kid, my hubby brings me great fulfillment. Ive only been a SAHM for about 1.5 years but it was my H's suggestion and I was all on board.
> 
> I think what some posters may be missing is that some men want their wives to be able to focus on that supportive role so that it is easier on the household for him to excel at his career without the wife having the added stress of a career.[


To me this is a great arrangement. You both are working together, for the good of the family. When we start having children together we've discussed the potential to have this kind of working arrangement. My in laws are far from rich, but my wife's mother stayed home for the first 6 years to raise her and I'd love for my wife to be able to do the same, if she wants when the time comes.





thefam said:


> It has nothing to do with equality or feminism at all. The extremists of femnism totally turns me off so I dont even identify myself as such.


Well according to some you can't be stigmatized by any feminist. It's apparently not possible. All the SAHM who feel this way are just making it up.


----------



## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

gender pay gap is about 5% when adjusted for all factors 

there are many articles to show that this bull$hit factoid has just been repeated over and over so now its taken for granted that its real.


----------



## DoF (Mar 27, 2014)

I think the key is to "find out FAST" if the lady you are dating is selective when it comes to "feminism" or if she is consistent.

Some will pull the feminism line AT THEIR Convenience when it's to benefit them.

But will refuse and pull the "old fashioned" or "traditional" like when convenient as well.

Stay away from those.....

Consistency, fairness is what you are looking for ALL AROUND.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

DoF said:


> I think the key is to "find out FAST" if the lady you are dating is selective when it comes to "feminism" or if she is consistent.
> 
> Some will pull the feminism line AT THEIR Convenience when it's to benefit them.
> 
> ...


I agree and that includes women having children out of wedlock.

Let the Baby Daddy pay or make arrangements for babysitting needs when you date the single mom.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

vellocet said:


> Confidence to come up to you and strike up a conversation, sure, that is sexy and flattering.


Again not that it's ever happened to me, but my assumption is the, "buy me a drink" line is the opener for her to approach me and strike up a conversation. Delivered in a flirtacious manner. I'm not automatically assuming she's egomaniacal enough to just demand I buy her a free drink and then walk away. 

Guys use the same line except in reverse, "Can I buy you a drink" all the time to accomplish the same thing. If a woman offered to buy ME a drink I'd think it was weird but at least for me an approach in my direction would be a refreshing change. I know women are more suttle and all that but sometimes being direct can be effective too.

Most women I've ever met at bars (which is why I stopped going) were incredibly concieted. They'd stand around like passive sheep waiting to be approached by the wolves (ie drunk guys) who normally wouldn't give them the time of day outside of a bar.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Now who is expressing more confidence? The one who has to ask.......?


Yes. I know many women who have NEVER approached a guy. Every person they have ever dated approached them. The very thought of role reversal horrifies them which I don't understand. What if you really like the guy, you'll just let him go? What if you only get approached by losers, do you just pick the least douchiest? I don't get it... You see a guy you think is cute, go talk to him. I respect that.


----------



## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

My attitude on this has kind of changed over the years. I see a lot of guys get into the mindset of "I must pay for her time." Buying drinks, paying for dates, it goes in this mindset that you are lucky to be around her and she is deserving of you buying her time. You must keep her entertained because she is on the pedestal and you are a mere mortal.

Flip it around, you be the prize. She's getting something for being around you, she gets your charm and wit and company. You're not trying to impress her. If she gets angry at this, that's fine, you have others willing to take her place.

I've been chastised for this before, but realistically no woman (or man), would ever voluntarily WANT to pay for dinner. So of course women in general are going to be upset when guys start talking about not paying for dates.

Let the results speak for themselves. Who is displaying more value in these two situations?

1. Woman asks for a man to buy a drink. Guy A says, "Sure thing!" Guy B says, "No thanks"
2. Man and Woman are out on a date. Guy A says, "I'll buy your dinner!." Guy B says, "I don't pay for first dates."

Guy B is mysterious. Why is he willing or OK with upsetting her? He must have options...I wonder why he's so confident?

Second point. Don't take women out on dates that require a lot of money. First, it's boring. Second, it sets the expectation for how you're going to relate to her. Do fun things in your life and invite women to join you. Walks, parks, city events, errands. Invite her into your world, let her be a part of it.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> Yes. I know many women who have NEVER approached a guy. Every person they have ever dated approached them. *The very thought of role reversal horrifies them which I don't understand.* What if you really like the guy, you'll just let him go? What if you only get approached by losers, do you just pick the least douchiest? I don't get it... You see a guy you think is cute, go talk to him. I respect that.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. All my long term relationships (but one, the one from high school) were with guys who approached me first.

All the (other) guys that I ever approached and asked out first, things went nowhere.

Myabe I am becoming more and more like you men, but before I was married (this second time around) , I felt that I already had enough friends. So I didn't need to chase any more men for them to end up as (just) friends with me.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> Again not that it's ever happened to me, but my assumption is the, "buy me a drink" line is the opener for her to approach me and strike up a conversation. Delivered in a flirtacious manner. I'm not automatically assuming she's egomaniacal enough to just demand I buy her a free drink and then walk away.
> 
> Guys use the same line except in reverse, "Can I buy you a drink" all the time to accomplish the same thing. *If a woman offered to buy ME a drink I'd think it was weird *but at least for me an approach in my direction would be a refreshing change. I know women are more suttle and all that but sometimes being direct can be effective too.
> 
> Most women I've ever met at bars (which is why I stopped going) were incredibly concieted. They'd stand around like passive sheep waiting to be approached by the wolves (ie drunk guys) who normally wouldn't give them the time of day outside of a bar.


:scratchhead:

So, a woman offering to buy you a drink is a problem, but the same woman _telling you to buy her one _is not? That's deeply confusing to me. I'm shy and reserved, so I don't typically approach men in bars. But if I were to do that, I would never, _ever_, presume to ask him to buy me a drink. Maybe that's a cultural thing?


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Come over to my place, and not only will I "buy" you a drink, we can have mimosas with breakfast!


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Rowan said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> So, a woman offering to buy you a drink is a problem, but the same woman _telling you to buy her one _is not? That's deeply confusing to me. I'm shy and reserved, so I don't typically approach men in bars. But if I were to do that, I would never, _ever_, presume to ask him to buy me a drink. Maybe that's a cultural thing?


Yeah, Rowan I missed that.

Another example of how being forthcoming with a guy is not worth the trouble.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

jaquen said:


> Well according to some you can't be stigmatized by any feminist. It's apparently not possible. All the SAHM who feel this way are just making it up.


How the SAHM feels may be unrelated to the stigmatizing feelings of the feminist in question. That said, the Mommy wars are real. Stupid. But real.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Yeah, Rowan I missed that.
> 
> Another example of how being forthcoming with a guy is not worth the trouble.


I see it as an example of how it is worthwhile.

If you can immediately know a guy is that sexist and insecure without any investment of your time you've saved yourself a bit of trouble.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Rowan said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> So, a woman offering to buy you a drink is a problem, but the same woman _telling you to buy her one _is not? That's deeply confusing to me.


Fair enough, I saw the hypocracy as I wrote it too. Maybe it's a gender role thing ingrained in me from youth. Not that I think it's a "problem" but maybe some guys would find it emasculating if a woman bought a man a drink? I don't know, just trying to be honest, that's never happened to me either so I don't know how I'd react lol. It's incredibly rare as far as I know.... That's just not how it works and it's accepted as normal by both sexes.

I guess on the intial onset I'm more of a traditionalist but once the relationship is establish, I see no reason why the playing field shouldn't be leveled. Financially or otherwise. Anymore than, a girlfriend might not think twice about asking her boyfriend to grab a beer at a bar but a girl approaching a stranger in a bar is a whole nother animal.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

COguy said:


> My attitude on this has kind of changed over the years. I see a lot of guys get into the mindset of "I must pay for her time." Buying drinks, paying for dates, it goes in this mindset that you are lucky to be around her and she is deserving of you buying her time. You must keep her entertained because she is on the pedestal and you are a mere mortal.
> 
> *Flip it around, you be the prize. She's getting something for being around you, she gets your charm and wit and company. You're not trying to impress her. If she gets angry at this, that's fine, you have others willing to take her place.*
> I've been chastised for this before, but realistically no woman (or man), would ever voluntarily WANT to pay for dinner. So of course women in general are going to be upset when guys start talking about not paying for dates.
> ...


I could live with this as long as I don't find out that you're closing bar tabs for HER and her friends (not yours) AND 1) you claim not to like her all that much and 2) you know that she's f^cking other men.

You men need to talk with your brethren and ask, what's up with that.

Let's spin this around. I hear that guys can be ok with waiting 6 months maybe a year before having sex with someone they care ........ until they find she's either 1) having sex with another during the same time period and /or 2) she doesn't normally make guys wait.

Personally, I am not a proponent of multi dating so I am doing my bit.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

tacoma said:


> I see it as an example of how it is worthwhile.
> 
> If you can immediately know a guy is that sexist and insecure without any investment of your time you've saved yourself a bit of trouble.


I don't know of any guy who would be offended by a forthcoming women. At worst, flattered but not interested for whatever reason. At best completely into it. 

I don't see downside except maybe having to potentially deal with the same kind of rejection guys experience on a constant basis in the dating world.


----------



## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> I could live with this as long as I don't find out that you're closing bar tabs for HER and her friends (not yours)


I know that's what you experienced but you mentioned this a few times in this thread. You do understand that not all guys want to cheap out on your date so they can throw money at other women or exs right? That's not a normal and frankly super shady. I hope you dumped whoever it was when you found out.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

jaquen said:


> You know no human being that's left out in the cold by today's (note TODAY's) feminist movement? You must live in a lovely fairytale world where I do not. Congratulations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jaquen, I will answer that. I do not feel ENTITLED to it at all. I was not long for the dating game (my H was my first boyfriend). But a man's willingness to do so is huge plus to me. It is probably because in my world this is an indicator of how I am regarded in his eyes. I see it as being an outer symbol of his willingness to a leader and a protector of the relationship. These are the qualities I admire in a man. Am I saying that a man who was not on board with this have no qualities that I admire? Not at all. Its just something about a man who WILLINGLY will pay for all dates that resonates with me. I dont have to have a man with this thought pattern but it sure moves him to the top of the list. But it has nothing to do with entitlement. This is the type of man that I am willing to give myself completely to and be all in with the relationship. 

I too treat my H like the king he is and would do anything for him except break the law. I trust him with my heart and that is just one of the things that builded this trust ... he did not want me spending my money on him, because he wanted to provide that.

This may not help but its the best way I can explain it.


----------



## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> When I was in school going on a date my Mother would give always give me money just in case. She told me to offer and not be caught without any cash if he wanted to split it but that they usually wouldn't take it anyway. If I was dating again I would do the same thing.
> If I was paying I would want to be involved in the plans though. Don't take me to some fancy place I can't afford and expect me to blow my budget on a plate of food. If you want to go fancy, you can pay for it. If you want help with the bill, we go somewhere in my price range.


My parents never gave me money, but I always offered to help pay for dates. In all, I think I maybe paid for about 4 dates total between all of the guys I had gone on dates with. It was rare that any of them let me pay, but they all appreciated that I offered. After my husband and I had been dating for a little while, we really looked for free or low cost dates because I didn't want him to spend a ton of money on me. Instead that money was put away and has been a great help now with our financial struggles lately. 



SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Because feminism is about choices and rights. You can choose to date a man who wants to pay for dates, you can choose to stay home and marry a man who will be the provider. You can choose not to vote. You have these as _choices _ and not forced on us because we have rights.
> 
> Men also have choices. If they want to date a woman who pays or be a SAHD, they can now too.
> 
> Forcing women into new modern roles in this "post-feminism" world would be just as bad as when women were forced into more traditional ones before it. Now every woman can choose. Traditional, modern, a mix of the two. You can want women to have the right to earn enough money to live on and pay for their own dates without choosing to do it yourself.


:iagree: It is so wonderful to have the choice to do what is best for your family. That choice was not there before and I'm grateful for it being there now. 

I'm a mix of the two ideals, modern and traditional. I'm a SAHM and love it, but I also have a bachelor's degree and a fairly nice resume. I know I can pretty easily get a job if needed to support my son and I. I don't know if I really "fit in" with either side(I do consider myself a feminist, which doesn't go over well with many SAHMs, but many modern women don't agree with my choice to stay home), but I'm doing what I enjoy and what works best for my family.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I never felt the backlash at all till I came here and seen what happens if a woman speaks favorably of such a lifestyle.. we have to be reminded how stupid we are.... I kinda enjoyed EnigmaGirl post with her adding the "0 sympathy for such women"...you know why.... at least she is a feminist who was honest about it !!
> 
> Most won't say it like that....that comes off too cruel to tell another woman how STUPID she really is.. .. see I am one of those STUPID women.. well maybe half stupid.....I don't fit all of that... as we did save very very well..I most definitely have a cushion to fall if the worst happens. But still I'm degree-less...certainly not like her friend who keeps her skills updated -who deserves respect and praise....
> 
> ...


To Ele Girl:

The above excerpt is what I mean by feminist extremists. It does not, as you said in your post "turn me off" that women want to have a career. That is a choice, just like staying home is a choice. To be totally honest here, I do not understand how a woman who really had a choice and for whom money is no object, would choose to leave a child under two in daycare. But at the same time I would never think that just because someone cannot afford to stay home with an infant should not have a baby. If given a choice between daycare and not having a baby at all, I would tell every woman, have the baby,, you will still be able to give the child enough love and attention that the child would be at no less of an advantage than a SAHMs child. But you can stay home with your infant for that first year or two and you choose not to -- that I dont understand. But I still defend your right to that choice and still believe your child will be at no less of an advantage because of that decision.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

BetrayedDad said:


> What if you only get approached by losers, do you just pick the least douchiest? I don't get it... You see a guy you think is cute, go talk to him. I respect that.


There are enormous implications to this. We joke about it, but it does make me wonder how many women settled for the best of who approached, vs who they truly wanted. Women are generally socialized to throw out more subtle cues. But I hope women, in general, learn to truly go after what they want with a harder sell if the subtle isn't getting through.

Best to take a shot at what you really want, and risk failure, than learn to settle for what you can get.


----------



## Tubbalard (Feb 8, 2015)

If we know we are the only one who is next in line for the gold then yeah, there is something worth waiting for. I'll be damned if im putting my time and effort into a female and she's shagging someone on the side and all he has to offer is white castle burgers and hard bratwurst.

Also if she decided that with me she's going to be mother Theresa or go Godly Gale and be stingy with the Hoo- Hah, then its a subway wrap. On to the next with my footlong. Aint no way on God's green earth am I going to be the next sucker with no smuckers thats not going to taste the Jelly because of a kitty kat re awakening. No way Jose. I want the complimentary tickets that the previous 20 men got. Why should I have walk up Mount Everest just to get the Ooey Gooey. 2 snaps to the right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

Tubbalard said:


> If we know we are the only one who is next in line for the gold then yeah, there is something worth waiting for. I'll be damned if im putting my time and effort into a female and she's shagging someone on the side and all he has to offer is white castle burgers and hard bratwurst.
> 
> Also if she decided that with me she's going to be mother Theresa or go Godly Gale and be stingy with the Hoo- Hah, then its a subway wrap. On to the next with my footlong. Aint no way on God's green earth am I going to be the next sucker with no smuckers thats not going to taste the Jelly because of a kitty kat re awakening. No way Jose. I want the complimentary tickets that the previous 20 men got. Why should I have walk up Mount Everest just to get the Ooey Gooey. *2 snaps to the right.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Real men don't snap. Just sayin'


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

thefam said:


> To Ele Girl:
> 
> The above excerpt is what I mean by feminist extremists. It does not, as you said in your post "turn me off" that women want to have a career. That is a choice, just like staying home is a choice. To be totally honest here, I do not understand how a woman who really had a choice and for whom money is no object, would choose to leave a child under two in daycare. But at the same time I would never think that just because someone cannot afford to stay home with an infant should not have a baby. If given a choice between daycare and not having a baby at all, I would tell every woman, have the baby,, you will still be able to give the child enough love and attention that the child would be at no less of an advantage than a SAHMs child. But you can stay home with your infant for that first year or two and you choose not to -- that I dont understand. But I still defend your right to that choice and still believe your child will be at no less of an advantage because of that decision.


This post does not make a lot of sense. The child won't be any worse off if you HAVE to work but will if you don't HAVE to?

I can see where a family would decide it would be beneficial to have a parent home. I think thee are plenty of families where the father would be better suited.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

BetrayedDad said:


> I know that's what you experienced but you mentioned this a few times in this thread. You do understand that not all guys want to cheap out on your date so they can throw money at other women or exs right? That's not a normal and frankly super shady. I hope you dumped whoever it was when you found out.


The man involved is my husband. That "friendship" is what brought me here to TAM. When I raised the issue with him, he immediately cut ties with her ; stopped hassling me about money and started talking marriage. 

Still, I suspect that there are lot of men out there at least at one time or another who is getting an exclusive relationship from one woman while he plays "provider." I think it bears repeating how my sister discovered that her live in bf was still paying the utilities of his ex gf while crying the broke blues to her.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> How the SAHM feels may be unrelated to the stigmatizing feelings of the feminist in question.


I find this to be true. Sometimes a person is so emersed in own feelings of being stigmatized they transfer their own feelings/beliefs onto others. When this happens, there seems to be no way to get through to that person. For some reason, some people are over invested in their own feelings of being vicimized.



NobodySpecial said:


> That said, the Mommy wars are real. Stupid. But real.


Yes there are 'mommy wars'. I don't think that most women engage in them. But some do. This comes for all side, or both sidees.

There are SAHMs who look down on working mothers. There are working mothers who look down on SAHMs. No matter if a mother is a SAHM or a working mother, she's had interactions with both men and women who have some pretty judgemental and mean things to say about her choices.

It is stupid.


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

thefam said:


> Real men don't snap. Just sayin'


Oh brother.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I find this to be true. Sometimes a person is so emersed in own feelings of being stigmatized they transfer their own feelings/beliefs onto others. When this happens, there seems to be no way to get through to that person. For some reason, some people are over invested in their own feelings of being victimized.
> 
> Yes there are 'mommy wars'. I don't think that most women engage in them. But some do. This comes for all side, or both sidees.
> 
> ...


This is so true...a lot of the judgement comes from mummy guilt I think. The SAHM's are made to feel guilty for not contributing financially and the working mums are made to feel guilty for not "being there" for the children.

While I take offence at a lot of the disrespectful comments about SAHM's I don't personally feel the need to defend or justify myself, because I love my life. My husband and I discussed options re me working/not working, and did what we feel is best for our family. He's completely supportive of my wish to stay at home, just as he would be fully supportive of my wish to work if that's what I wanted to do.

For me, being a SAHM fulfils a longing in me for my own family. I've ALWAYS wanted my own family, but it never happened. I didn't meet my husband until I was 38 and I worked full time during all those years leading up to our meeting. I'm educated and I've done the corporate world. All the time though, it was a means to an end - I worked because I had to. I built my own house, and brought it to the relationship with 10 years equity, I came with 2 cars and superannuation. It's not like I was on welfare and came with nothing, lol. 

Now, I finally have my own little family and I love it so much  I don't want to miss a minute. I LOVE packing the school lunch box, and helping in the canteen at lunch times. Dropping our daughter to school and picking her up. Being here when she's sick, to take care of her. Going to school assemblies when she's performing, and helping in the class room. 

I've gone from crunching numbers and preparing Board papers for Managing Directors, attending meetings with the Lord Mayor and members of Parliament to the school canteen - and I couldn't be happier. 

Meanwhile, this thread has gotten a bit off topic methinks! Lol!


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

frusdil said:


> Now, I finally have my own little family and I love it so much  I don't want to miss a minute. I LOVE packing the school lunch box, and helping in the canteen at lunch times. Dropping our daughter to school and picking her up. Being here when she's sick, to take care of her. Going to school assemblies when she's performing, and helping in the class room.
> 
> I've gone from crunching numbers and preparing Board papers for Managing Directors, attending meetings with the Lord Mayor and members of Parliament to the school canteen - and I couldn't be happier.


This is such a lovely post. While I'm child-free by choice, my live-in BF has a wonderful and amazing 15-year-old daughter that lives with us on the weekends every other week. I didn't think I was capable of loving someone else's child as much as I love her. I wish she could live with us full-time. But I'll take whatever I can get. It's merely an nth of what you have, but it's so rewarding. 

And FWIW, I believe SAHMs are the most important job on the planet. You are, after all, raising the next generation-the generation who will take care of us and it's important.

Sorry for the threadjack.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

thefam said:


> Real men don't snap. Just sayin'


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

^^^ one of the best skits ever.


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

vellocet said:


>


Touche. But if I would venture a guess they're not exactly representing the men who are looking for female poontang.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Tubbalard said:


> If we know we are the only one who is next in line for the gold then yeah, there is something worth waiting for. I'll be damned if im putting my time and effort into a female and she's shagging someone on the side and all he has to offer is white castle burgers and hard bratwurst.
> 
> Also if she decided that with me she's going to be mother Theresa or go Godly Gale and be stingy with the Hoo- Hah, then its a subway wrap. On to the next with my footlong. Aint no way on God's green earth am I going to be the next sucker with no smuckers thats not going to taste the Jelly because of a kitty kat re awakening. No way Jose. I want the complimentary tickets that the previous 20 men got. Why should I have walk up Mount Everest just to get the Ooey Gooey. 2 snaps to the right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> This post does not make a lot of sense. The child won't be any worse off if you HAVE to work but will if you don't HAVE to?
> 
> I can see where a family would decide it would be beneficial to have a parent home. I think thee are plenty of families where the father would be better suited.


I think you read it wrong. Better to just quote what I said instead of trying to put your interpretation to it.


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> I never felt the backlash at all till I came here and seen what happens if a woman speaks favorably of such a lifestyle.. we have to be reminded how stupid we are.... I kinda enjoyed EnigmaGirl post with her adding the "0 sympathy for such women"...you know why.... at least she is a feminist who was honest about it !!
> 
> Most won't say it like that....that comes off too cruel to tell another woman how STUPID she really is.. .. see I am one of those STUPID women.. well maybe half stupid.....I don't fit all of that... as we did save very very well..I most definitely have a cushion to fall if the worst happens. But still I'm degree-less...certainly not like her friend who keeps her skills updated -who deserves respect and praise....
> 
> ...


I'm not responsible for your lack of reading comprehension.

I clearly said that if you have a plan, you're making a choice that "isn't" stupid and it works for you and your family. I really do get tired of over sensitive SAHMs who get intimated by working women every time they make a comment. I simply stated a fact. If you make bad choices...working or not...you can't expect sympathy when the obvious happens.

I have ZERO sympathy for people who make stupid choices and then whine when there's consequences to be paid. And that doesn't just go for stay-at-home people....I know working people that work and go into massive debt buying crap they don't need because they don't think they'll ever lose their job or have an illness. Equally stupid and I have very little sympathy for their choices either.

I am a feminist because I believe in equality for women but I also think you have to own your crap. If you decide to stay home with no financial back-up plan knowing that you have kids and there's a 50% divorce rate....it isn't a feminist thing to say that's a STUPID thing to do. Parents have an obligation to protect their children from financial ruin.

Frankly, I don't care what anyone does...its your life, do what you want with it. I honestly just roll my eyes when I hear another woman who's husband is cheating and she has no prospects to take care of herself because she couldn't be bothered to think ahead despite all the data out there about marriage. Its true...I have zero sympathy...in fact, I think women like that exist to teach a lesson to younger women on how NOT to be. Its not cruel to simply tell the truth...in fact, its kind to tell women to prepare. I think the illusion of Prince Charming saving you from having personal responsibility for your financial well-being is the cruelty.

The fact is that modern men are getting sick and tired of women sitting around with their hand out and I can't say I blame them. I see more and more men that are balking at the idea of having to support a woman who won't educate and financially take care of themselves. And I think that's a great thing. The truth is that there would be a lot less poor women and children out there if women took care of themselves financially instead of fooling themselves into thinking that marriage will always protect them. Sometimes women luck out and stay married forever and that's great...but half the time, they don't....that's reality.

If I was a guy, I'd stay far, far, far away from a woman who refused to plan to have the ability to work. Its just not the type of mother I'd want for my children.


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> And FWIW, I believe *SAHMs are the most important job on the planet.* You are, after all, raising the next generation-the generation who will take care of us and it's important.


I crack up when SAHMs freak-out at working women and then comments like this are made. Its such an insult to both working men and women. 

I was raised by a working mom and I thank goodness every single day that she taught me the value of financial independence and work ethic. I can honestly say that my mom wasn't a SAHM and I never missed a thing in having her raise me. She did it all and she was an amazing woman.

I was also lucky enough to have a mother that stressed education to her girl children so that I was able to have a career that allowed me to have my kids with me when they were small so that I could work and still take care of them everyday. I either worked at home or I took them into the office with my where I had a crib and a playpen. There are a lot of companies these days that are making wonderful options for women so that they can flex out time or raise kids while still enjoying their career.

Working full-time has never stopped me from volunteering at school, putting my kids on the bus and I got the added benefit of teaching my girls to be self-sufficient and smart about their futures. I work AND I cook dinner everyday and have a very, very clean organized home.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with staying home if that what works for you but I have to say, I am amazed by working women and I think they are great examples to younger women. I would totally disagree that being a SAHM is the most important job on the planet...being a parent that has a plan to take care of your kids in a way that works for your family is that most important job on the planet.


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I crack up when SAHMs freak-out at working women and then comments like this are made. Its such an insult to both working men and women.
> 
> I would totally disagree that being a SAHM is the most important job on the planet...being a parent that has a plan to take care of your kids in a way that works for your family is that most important job on the planet.


I might be misunderstanding what you're getting at, but to be clear, I'm a working woman. I'm child-free by choice. I'm not a SAHM.

And, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I stand by my comment.


----------



## ThirtyYearsIn (Sep 20, 2014)

Classic feminist hypocrisy. Progressive when they get paid, traditional when the bill comes due.


----------



## Baseballmom6 (Aug 15, 2012)

I am dating someone right now and we are both in our 50's. We make equal money or close to it. So far, my date has always asked me out and paid for the date. On several occasions we have gone for coffee somewhere after our date. I have on occasion offered to pay for the coffee afterwards. He has always refused to let me pay. 

Well, this past weekend, I insisted on paying for the coffee and so he relented and let me. I found out a few days later that he had left his credit card at the restaurant we ate at (which was over an hour away from where we live). Guess if I had let him pay for the coffee he would have noticed before the next morning. Damn it!


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lucy999 said:


> And FWIW, I believe SAHMs are the most important job on the planet. You are, after all, raising the next generation-the generation who will take care of us and it's important.


I think that being a parent is the most important job.. that's both mother and father. People can also work and be awesome parents who raise awesome children.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ThirtyYearsIn said:


> Classic feminist hypocrisy. Progressive when they get paid, traditional when the bill comes due.


???? Who here is like this?


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I have ZERO sympathy for people who make stupid choices and then whine when there's consequences to be paid. And that doesn't just go for stay-at-home people....*I know working people that work and go into massive debt buying crap they don't need because they don't think they'll ever lose their job or have an illness. * Equally stupid and I have very little sympathy for their choices either.


Yes.. I may be sensitive in some areas, but I'm not hard or would feel no sympathy even in some of these aftermaths....

Though I do think like you ...in that many things can be avoided if we had made better choices along the way... I am risk aversive on many fronts. 

Also very hard on myself when I screw up....I will have 3 fingers pointing back at myself...knocking my head against the wall saying "What was I [email protected]#"... I don't like regrets....

Though a life can be destroyed in a heartbeat.. working or non....a tragic car accident that wasn't our fault, a drunk driver / someone carelessly texting / black ice...life can be so unfair.. and our world shaken to the core... happened to a dear friend of mine months ago, she can't go back to her job.... thankfully she was recently married & her H makes pretty good money...and he can support her..

She had to have a hip replacement, arm broken, concussion, she almost lost her leg but didn't thankfully.....if not for the air bag, she would have died... she's living in a nursing home for probably 6 months where she can get daily physical therapy...

I have much sympathy for when something awful like this befalls anyone.. a single Mom working for peanuts on her own .. even more so probably -she would need more friends gathered around her.. (this could have been my friend 2 yrs ago even)...

I think a Good health care plan is one of the most important things in this world.. no matter how much planning we do.. for all one worked for , saved, it can all go up in smoke with a cancer diagnosis for example.



> *frusdil said:** While I take offence at a lot of the disrespectful comments about SAHM's I don't personally feel the need to defend or justify myself, because I love my life. My husband and I discussed options re me working/not working, and did what we feel is best for our family. He's completely supportive of my wish to stay at home, just as he would be fully supportive of my wish to work if that's what I wanted to do.*


You are so right in what you say here Frusdil... Can I have some of that ......I need to just rest in it..and stop reading the other side...or learn to not take it so personal. 

About a year ago, after a heated thread here.. I asked our 2 teen sons if they would have preferred I been like some of their friends Moms.. (they adore the one -so do I -she is just EVERYTHING, super amazing & a friend-one who would hire me full time If I needed too)......now they know they can say anything to me.. we have many deep conversations..and they let it rip....

The way they answered me brought me to tears (I had to walk away even- and told them how much I appreciate them later).. ..it was very uplifting...... I guess if a child's experience was good.. they will be thankful for how they have been raised.. either way... we're not rich by any means, but they've never went without... We're that house that allows sleep overs any night.. near any amount of kids even.... the more the merrier!....I love the full house.. the laughter.. throwing back yard parties ...it gives me great joy to do for them... in these ways..


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are so right in what you say here Frusdil... Can I have some of that ......I need to just rest in it..and stop reading the other side...or learn to not take it so personal.


Exactly SA. Don't worry about what others think, or feel you have to defend or justify your decision, I don't! Lol!

It's all about choice. Different strokes for different folks, and what works for yours and my families wouldn't work for some others and vice versa - and that's ok!

If everyone were the same, the world would be a very boring place


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> People probably reading this and laughing at this girl who is a college dropout, bad English grammars, working a low pay job and live in 'the hood'.


I would never look down on or laugh at any woman who's out there working hard at whatever job to make a living, saving and earning her way through life. I have a great admiration for anyone who gets off their butt and works hard to support themselves. 

There's been many a time that I had to choose between two potential employment candidates...one who may have a higher level education and one who I know is a hard worker with initiative and drive. And I can tell you that I'll take the hard worker every time and I've never had it backfire on me yet.

Kudos to you for being a hard working woman! And congratulations on finding an awesome husband!


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

thefam said:


> Real men don't snap. Just sayin'



I imagine "real" men do whatever the hell they want, other people's input be damned.


----------



## bastian36 (Feb 11, 2015)

rep said:


> Married a long time,, been dating and I noticed that women still make you feel like you must pay. I've been asking friends and they say they are used to it but it gets expensive. In this day and age,, why isn't it more equal??
> If I take her and her son out,, your talking $60 for meal. Movies are more.. And to go out for drinks is even more. I have yet to have one women offer to contribute.
> Do men budget for this???


Basically, it all boils down to this; men want sex. They have to pay for it, one way or the other. If they don't pay, they don't get laid. 
Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or anything, but that's just the perspective of many men.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm happy to provide a date, but what about the first date? Everyone seems to be posting about the ongoing relationship where he pays one time, she pays another. 

Also, it seems to be accepted by singles that by the time you invite them to your place it automatically means sex. So I'm not offering up a home cooked meal for some time, no matter how domestically inclined I am.

I am considerate of his circumstances - by the time we go out I know what he does for a living at least in a general sense. I know if he has kids and how old they are and with whom they primarily live so I can make a guess as to whether or not he pays support. I know if he owns or rents and a idea of where. So I have a good general idea of his expendable income. 

I don't spend MORE if I know he's well off but I do let him guide the cost of the date regardless and I don't spend more of his money than I would of my own. If he just asks me for Saturday morning coffee followed by a stroll in the park, that's fine. I never suggest where unless he asks for ideas near me and I usually give a wide variety from sports bar to mid range dining. I never order a drink unless he does and I don't order top shelf unless he does. 

I generally don't make as much as the men I'm dating. And I can tell you the men in my field make WAY more than I do. In fact, a guy who is my exact age, worked half the time in this industry and just started in sales makes more in base AND commission than I do. So as much as I'd LIKE to see equality in wages (and happily pay for an equal amount on dates), it's not happening for me, personally.

So maybe I miss a fabulous opportunity with some guy because I don't offer to pay on the first date. But if he writes me off for that, so does he. Because I'm very generous and thoughtful. When I'm dating someone I stock their favorite beer/drink so when he comes over I have it. I will cook his favorite foods and do other things that show I am paying attention and care. I'm old fashioned in a lot of ways. I also expect that courtesy in return.

I'm great at compromising and pulling my fair share in a relationship. The problem is getting there. Then again, maybe the numbers game has worked just fine. I've had lots of first dates and only a few LTRs in the past 11 years. That's probably the way it should be. Everyone doesn't make the cut either way.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm happy to provide a date, but what about the first date? Everyone seems to be posting about the ongoing relationship where he pays one time, she pays another.
> 
> Also, it seems to be accepted by singles that by the time you invite them to your place it automatically means sex. So I'm not offering up a home cooked meal for some time, no matter how domestically inclined I am.
> 
> ...


its all about setting the standards you want and sticking to them. Won't be everyone's cup of tea none of us are lol. 

I love the cook at home idea.:smthumbup:

Best getting to know you date I ever had was a woman who came to my place and cooked me dinner. I am normally the cook so I admit to having a hard time not jumping up and helping but she wouldn't have it. To this day was the best 1st date I ever had.


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> its all about setting the standards you want and sticking to them. Won't be everyone's cup of tea none of us are lol.
> 
> I love the cook at home idea.:smthumbup:
> 
> *Best getting to know you date I ever had was a woman who came to my place and cooked me dinner. * I am normally the cook so I admit to having a hard time not jumping up and helping but she wouldn't have it. *To this day was the best 1st date I ever had*.


Wow. I would never, _ever_, consider going to a man's home for a first date. Unless, of course, that "first date" was a long-term friendship that had developed into a romantic interest. But some rando I met on Match or at the bookstore? Oh, hell, no!


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm happy to provide a date, but what about the first date? Everyone seems to be posting about the ongoing relationship where he pays one time, she pays another.
> 
> Also, it seems to be accepted by singles that by the time you invite them to your place it automatically means sex. So I'm not offering up a home cooked meal for some time, no matter how domestically inclined I am.
> 
> ...


I'm right there with you! I feel like you do. I work hard, but don't have a lot of earning power right now. I was a SAHM for over a decade, got divorced, and it is like I'm starting over again in my career. I have been dating a man for a long time who even though makes twice what I do, treats me to dinner about 3 times a year. I went years with him splitting dinner tabs, even though he usually orders multiple drinks (I do not) and meals that sometimes cost twice what I order (I am a vegetarian for the most part). I ended up paying not only for for my meal but a lot of his, everytime!!! It wasn't even a 50/50 split. Having experienced this and paying much more for dates than my dating partner who makes twice what I do, if I were dating again I would appreciate a man who would care to treat me on a first date, at least. It would speak volumes to me about what kind of a person he may be = generous and perhaps at least fair down the road (because I do swing my own weight and more in a relationship.)


----------



## Basic"FairyDust"Love (Nov 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I'm right there with you! I feel like you do. I work hard, but don't have a lot of earning power right now. I was a SAHM for over a decade, got divorced, and it is like I'm starting over again in my career. I have been dating a man for a long time who even though makes twice what I do, treats me to dinner about 3 times a year. I went years with him splitting dinner tabs, even though he usually orders multiple drinks (I do not) and meals that sometimes cost twice what I order (I am a vegetarian for the most part). I ended up paying not only for for my meal but a lot of his, everytime!!! It wasn't even a 50/50 split. Having experienced this and paying much more for dates than my dating partner who makes twice what I do, if I were dating again I would appreciate a man who would care to treat me on a first date, at least. It would speak volumes to me about what kind of a person he may be = generous and perhaps at least fair down the road (because I do swing my own weight and more in a relationship.)


Why in the world are you still dealing with this man?


----------



## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

My fiancee told me she initially went out with me because 'at least she'd get a free meal' (we met online). She's probably only half kidding, but that's OK. She didn't offer to pay and that was fine. I don't think she offered to pay till the third date or so, and after that its been about half and half without any questions.


----------



## Basic"FairyDust"Love (Nov 19, 2014)

devotion said:


> My fiancee told me she initially went out with me because 'at least she'd get a free meal' (we met online). She's probably only half kidding, but that's OK. She didn't offer to pay and that was fine. I don't think she offered to pay till the third date or so, and after that its been about half and half without any questions.


Going out to eat is overrated. I can easily stay home and eat. I would never go on a date with a man just for free food. I would only go on a date to get to know someone. That can be done with or without food.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Basic"FairyDust"Love said:


> Going out to eat is overrated. I can easily stay home and eat. I would never go on a date with a man just for free food. I would only go on a date to get to know someone. That can be done with or without food.


Unfortunately not everyone of your gender feels the same way. I would speculate that those guys who have pretty strong feelings about not paying or not paying too much for a first date have a story behind it. I know I do.

Dating should be as you describe getting to know one another but some users and players out there on both genders.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I wonder how often women who have gone on a couple of dates sleep with a guy who has paid for dinners and entertainment, although they don't really think the relationship is going anywhere?

Women wouldn't sample a guy in bed just to see if he might be better at sex that they expect, would they?


----------



## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Me and hubby we in a simple Courthouse ceremony. Both of us are poor with no assets. The Courhouse was the best option for us in our circumtances.
> There No engagement ring, No wedding reception, No honeymoon. His commitment, and the marriage itself are way more important than those stuff.
> 
> I'm 30, and he 29, so he is still a young man. I know there will be other girls come across his life path. I hope he won't divorce me if he find a richer or better girl.
> ...



I think there are some men that simply don't mind financially dependent women because they're nice guys and find that woman worthwhile for other reasons other than money. I think that's dangerous and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone I know in case of a relationship breakdown...but its their choice and works for them.

I also believe that there are another class of men that prey on women who aren't financially independent because they enjoy the control and leverage that having a weak, financially dependent woman gives them. I think that these types of men are definitely intimated by women who are self-sufficient because they rarely have much to offer them.

But more and more, I see hard working, intelligent men who want the same in a female partner and are pushing back on the idea of having to deal with a woman who wants to be a financially dependent leech while he has the entire burden of supporting the household.

Personally, I could never burden any person that I cared about with the entire financial responsibility ...its just not something I'd do to them and I wouldn't have any sense of self-worth for myself. I'll bet in your case that your husband appreciates very much the hard working woman you are. By the way, your English is far, far better than my Chinese.

By the way, I'm getting married next month and I think my whole wedding is going to cost about 75 bucks. And I have lots of money. I'm just not into weddings, I see them as a silly waste. (I can't even imagine myself in some ridiculously large white dress that I'm going to wear once and pay thousands for...the very idea is ludicrous to me). So I admire the way you got married...lol.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I agree first dates don't have to be a meal. But I don't want to invite a guy to my house or go to his for the first date. Weather is pretty cold right now for outdoor dates so options are a bit limited. Movies are out since you can't talk. But a coffee house is a fine way to start. A diner, a sports bar (if you can hear), tour a brewery, to go to a museum, wander the overstreet mall (similar height floors on uptown buildings dedicated to shopping, food and leisure all linked by overstreet passages mostly closed on weekends)... can all be fun. Bowling, darts or other indoor sports can be fun. Doing some volunteer work for a cause he/I am into. Doing a craft or a painting or pottery or sushi making class or touring a public works facility... heck if a guy asked me to join him at the gym I would as long as it's more about camaraderie and sharing interests vs. showing off. Summer or nice weather can involve picnics and frisbee, dog parks, greenway walks/jogs, checkers or feeding ducks in the uptown parks... I can think of a lot of things to do for under $10 per person and several for free, though hopefully he's not so cheap he won't offer to buy a bottle of water if he gets one.

So I have a blind "date" tonight. I have no clue about the guy who is joining this other couple except it's a guy. Literally that's all I know LOL Seeing a Journey tribute band and yes I bought my own ticket.  Wish me luck!


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I agree first dates don't have to be a meal. But I don't want to invite a guy to my house or go to his for the first date. Weather is pretty cold right now for outdoor dates so options are a bit limited. Movies are out since you can't talk. But a coffee house is a fine way to start. A diner, a sports bar (if you can hear), tour a brewery, to go to a museum, wander the overstreet mall (similar height floors on uptown buildings dedicated to shopping, food and leisure all linked by overstreet passages mostly closed on weekends)... can all be fun. Bowling, darts or other indoor sports can be fun. Doing some volunteer work for a cause he/I am into. Doing a craft or a painting or pottery or sushi making class or touring a public works facility... heck if a guy asked me to join him at the gym I would as long as it's more about camaraderie and sharing interests vs. showing off. Summer or nice weather can involve picnics and frisbee, dog parks, greenway walks/jogs, checkers or feeding ducks in the uptown parks... I can think of a lot of things to do for under $10 per person and several for free, though hopefully he's not so cheap he won't offer to buy a bottle of water if he gets one.
> 
> So I have a blind "date" tonight. I have no clue about the guy who is joining this other couple except it's a guy. Literally that's all I know LOL Seeing a Journey tribute band and yes I bought my own ticket.  Wish me luck!


Best of luck. Post an update :smthumbup:


----------



## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I agree first dates don't have to be a meal. But I don't want to invite a guy to my house or go to his for the first date. Weather is pretty cold right now for outdoor dates so options are a bit limited. Movies are out since you can't talk. But a coffee house is a fine way to start. A diner, a sports bar (if you can hear), tour a brewery, to go to a museum, wander the overstreet mall (similar height floors on uptown buildings dedicated to shopping, food and leisure all linked by overstreet passages mostly closed on weekends)... can all be fun. Bowling, darts or other indoor sports can be fun. Doing some volunteer work for a cause he/I am into. Doing a craft or a painting or pottery or sushi making class or touring a public works facility... heck if a guy asked me to join him at the gym I would as long as it's more about camaraderie and sharing interests vs. showing off. Summer or nice weather can involve picnics and frisbee, dog parks, greenway walks/jogs, checkers or feeding ducks in the uptown parks... I can think of a lot of things to do for under $10 per person and several for free, though hopefully he's not so cheap he won't offer to buy a bottle of water if he gets one.
> 
> So I have a blind "date" tonight. I have no clue about the guy who is joining this other couple except it's a guy. Literally that's all I know LOL Seeing a Journey tribute band and yes I bought my own ticket.  Wish me luck!


Good luck! 

There's more to do where you are than where I am, but I agree with you that there's always something low-cost going on somewhere within a reasonable distance. Even if it's just a drink or coffee. I'm actually not even sure I want to be stuck at dinner in a nice restaurant for a first date. Conversation can be awkward when there's not much going on besides elegant dining, and expectations seem artificially high. There's just something vaguely "trying a bit too hard" about the full-court press for someone who is essentially a stranger.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

The fine dining depends on his means. If that's his normal meal out, then it doesn't feel like he's trying too hard. 

I've never found it awkward to spend and hour or two over a meal with someone. There's always something to ask. Whether or not I like their answers is another thing entirely!


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

I've noticed that women, especially those who are not well to do, are offered free food, they can be genuinely grateful. There should be no hint of expectation of sex. If the offer is in fact not tied to a move on the man's part, i.e., she is the recipient of casual generosity but is not necessarily in the man's mind as a potential partner, she may actually find attracting him a challenge.


----------



## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

I mentioned this discussion to my fiancee and she was adamant that she offered to pay after our first date. I don't remember. She tells me she always offered to pay but no one ever took her up on the offer. I think she didn't expect any one to.

As per paying because I expect some return, that wasn't the case, either. Its just tradition. Funny thing is for me my first date with her was one of my most expensive ones (dinner at a relatively nice place; though she had a late lunch and didn't eat much). For her it was one of the cheapest 'free' meals she got. So its all about perspective. 

A lot of people say that dinner isn't a good first date, especially if you want a quick exit. Dunno. In my point of view unless its really horrible I'd like to give the other person at least an hour or so of my time to see if there is any redeeming qualities. I don't like movies as first dates because there's no interaction... 

I also wish good luck to EnjoliWoman  Some of me misses the excitement and possibilities of a first date, but I also know it can be a hit, a miss, or somewhere in between!


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> The fine dining depends on his means. If that's his normal meal out, then it doesn't feel like he's trying too hard.
> 
> I've never found it awkward to spend and hour or two over a meal with someone. There's always something to ask. Whether or not I like their answers is another thing entirely!


That also shows that you are in it for more than just a free date. Not that you view it as a free date. Just saying you are showing that you are giving your date a consideration.


----------



## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> So I have a blind "date" tonight. I have no clue about the guy who is joining this other couple except it's a guy. Literally that's all I know LOL Seeing a Journey tribute band and yes I bought my own ticket.  Wish me luck!


:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:

Have a great time! Let us know how it went.


----------



## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> So I have a blind "date" tonight. I have no clue about the guy who is joining this other couple except it's a guy. Literally that's all I know LOL Seeing a Journey tribute band and yes I bought my own ticket.  Wish me luck!


Woo hoo! Any updates??? :smthumbup:


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

A decent looking woman who's a foodie could absolutely clean up on the dating market on the back of "tradition" if she had no moral compunctions about leaving false hope in exchange for good food. There are plenty of male suckers born every day.

I think it would be best for first dates to become more associated with coffee, desserts, walks in the park, or very cheap eats if guys want to sus out the golddiggers and deadbeats. And I imagine a lot of men and women, those genuinely looking for real connections, would probably feel better with the pressure a more expensive dinner can bring totally out of the way.


----------



## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

I was a girl many years ago, now I am a woman. I was always obsessed with saving money, that hasn't changed. 

Finding free or cheap things to do is not very difficult, especially with the internet. Weeds out the entitled queens, and it just might turn into a hobby or a weekly outing. 

Some things we've done for free or under $20- visited 4 Boston museums, and several others outside the city, window shopped, ate at a midscale restaurant, had ice cream while touring Salem MA, rode in a rickshaw, went to a petting zoo (before we had kids and I was still a "girl.") Went to a free concert (third eye blind-brought the kids too!) 

I can't even imagine the horror of paying full price. Hubby is now as cheap as I am. We live off of disability, but even if we has cash, I would spend it to travel and on any future grandbabies.

If my man died (god forbid!) and a guy took me to a high end place I would assume he wanted sex or was trying to impress me which would turn me off. Coffee dates are fine, if it is a quaint mom and pop place and not StarBucks. 

I get that I might be rare, but I find the deals and my guy pays for them. I would not (and could not, due to my disability) pay for a date, but I would be happy walking around town and talking.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> The fine dining depends on his means. If that's his normal meal out, then it doesn't feel like he's trying too hard.
> 
> I've never found it awkward to spend and hour or two over a meal with someone. There's always something to ask. Whether or not I like their answers is another thing entirely!


This is my husband. He really likes 4 star dining and that was our first date.

But I started to notice that he was happy paying for the 4 star restaurants, he would hassle me to pay for anything else that was cheaper. 

Now that I understand men a little bit more like Enjoli, If I had not been dating my husband at that time, he would probably would have met some other women through meetup; take them to a 4 star reataurant and then try to get them to pay for the second date (cinema, you know) while still waiting around for his just a friend ex to come to her senses.

I think most women would think that even at that time, I had a pretty cush' situation ie.
1. 4 star dining on his account 
2. a man who came to some f my hospital visits (he was able decide every morning whether he would go into the office that day)
3. someone who wanted me to stay at his place from Friday to Sunday; then later Friday to Monday morning even though he didn't want to buy coffee and milk which I consume in the morning

there's a lot of nuance to dating that I think a lot of women really don't understand,


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> while still waiting around for his just a friend ex to come to her senses.


You keep repeating this, ad nauseum. I think you're projecting a ton. Your fiance asking you to pay because his money was being funneled to pay for his ex and her friends to get drunk really isn't all that common of a story.

But you keep warning other women to beware of this as a sign. No. If a man would like a little more financial equality in dating, or a relationship, it does not mean he's secretly spending his money on other women. You're taking an exception and making it a rule.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jaquen said:


> You keep repeating this, ad nauseum. I think you're projecting a ton. Your fiance asking you to pay because his money was being funneled to pay for his ex and her friends to get drunk really isn't all that common of a story.
> 
> But you keep warning other women to beware of this as a sign. No. If a man would like a little more financial equality in dating, or a relationship, it does not mean he's secretly spending his money on other women. You're taking an exception and making it a rule.



Nope, sorry not backing down.

1. There's my story with my current husband.

2. There's my sister's story with (now ex) live in boyfriend who was still paying the utilities of his ex gf (no court order involved).

3. There's the story of my husband's mother who discovered that her second husband was paying the bills of some other woman.

4. There's the story of the guy I dated in college who had broken up with hus live in gf who had 3 kids ( even he didn't know how many baby daddies) who expected that because he was still loaning his car to her (b/c of the kids, of course) that he was expecting I should give /loan my car to him. 

I'm sorry, but I am not here to support women who can't keep their legs closed.

I bet if other women revisit some of their dating situations (certainly not with their husbands), they will probably remember some guy who was trying to extract extra money from them for the noble cause of supporting some other woman.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Nope, sorry not backing down.


By all means continue on your crusade to save women from secretly paying for other women's bar tabs.


----------



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

When I was dating, we were all students, counting every penny. Frist date would be coffee/cake, but anything more than that I would offer to split the check. When I started dating my husband, I actually had good internship job, while he was pennyless studying hard with no time for extra work. We used to pretend that it was "my turn again" to pay for a beer.

Now, twenty years later, if I had to date again, I would definitely offer to split the check, or pay the tip, or I would pay later for a coffee or drink. Life is expensive, at this age most of us have mortgages, retirement plans, college plans, loans, etc. Even for a person with good income things add up. I want to feel comfortable on those dates, and I want the other person feel comfortable.

But that's me. I am not a princess type. If I visiting someone, I offer help. If I am on the longer car trip I will offer to take a wheel to let other person rest. I think that's fair.


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Update on "date". A whole group was going, all couples except me and this guy. (Oh and two women show up toward the end - not sure if they were a couple or just two women - no sign of affection just don't know - I never assume anything). Everyone knew several people there except me - I only knew the couple who invited me. So I'm introduced to this guy and there aren't enough seats so I just stand and ask him questions while sipping on my beer (I bought) and generally trying to engage him. I also chime in and chat with some others and at this point he goes to get beer and offers me one which I accept disappears with one of the guys for a while. Brings it back, I thank him and try to chat some more. At some point he disappears with some friends. As the group is about to head over to the other place to hear the band he shows back up and is buying shots for a group of guys and the female of the couple did the same. We all head out and because I'm at the leading end of the table I'm near the front of the herd and is he. He presses to the bar at the band venue and I order and pay for my own final beverage (I have to drive so this gives me a couple hours). He drinks several more and is hanging with his male buds and I just enjoy the band. I don't know who left first. We all sort of trickle out a the crowd thins toward the end. Nice enough guy but didn't seem interested. He didn't ask ME anything which is a sure sign.  But it was still a good night out and I saw a lot of people my age at the first venue which was a nice change. It's such a cool place I figured only 20 somethings went there but I'd go back just for fun.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Men pursue, that means paying. If you don't pay it means you don't want to pursue. If you are pursuing and not getting what you want out of it, stop pursuing. Yes it's extremely sexist, but sexism leads to sex. If you want a woman to pursue you instead, then you have to be the prettier one.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

If either of you is spending more than you're comfortable with then that's something to be addressed.


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Lon said:


> Men pursue, that means paying. If you don't pay it means you don't want to pursue. If you are pursuing and not getting what you want out of it, stop pursuing. Yes it's extremely sexist, but sexism leads to sex. If you want a woman to pursue you instead, then you have to be the prettier one.


Hey, I'm all about saving money


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

vellocet said:


> Hey, I'm all about saving money


Pretty boy


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> If either of you is spending more than you're comfortable with then that's something to be addressed.


I agree with this in principle. But people need ideas as to how to judge what's best for them.


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Update on "date". A whole group was going, all couples except me and this guy. (Oh and two women show up toward the end - not sure if they were a couple or just two women - no sign of affection just don't know - I never assume anything). Everyone knew several people there except me - I only knew the couple who invited me. So I'm introduced to this guy and there aren't enough seats so I just stand and ask him questions while sipping on my beer (I bought) and generally trying to engage him. I also chime in and chat with some others and at this point he goes to get beer and offers me one which I accept disappears with one of the guys for a while. Brings it back, I thank him and try to chat some more. At some point he disappears with some friends. As the group is about to head over to the other place to hear the band he shows back up and is buying shots for a group of guys and the female of the couple did the same. We all head out and because I'm at the leading end of the table I'm near the front of the herd and is he. He presses to the bar at the band venue and I order and pay for my own final beverage (I have to drive so this gives me a couple hours). He drinks several more and is hanging with his male buds and I just enjoy the band. I don't know who left first. We all sort of trickle out a the crowd thins toward the end. Nice enough guy but didn't seem interested. He didn't ask ME anything which is a sure sign.  But it was still a good night out and I saw a lot of people my age at the first venue which was a nice change. It's such a cool place I figured only 20 somethings went there but I'd go back just for fun.


Sorry this didn't go better, I agree no questions mean no interested. This is also one of the reasons, money aside, I prefer not to have dinner first dates. When you get someone who is not interested and won't even engage you in conversation even a quick 45 min dinner and be very uncomfortable. 

You know how it goes now that Valentine's Day is over its breakup city so lots of potential dates coming. Enjoy Enjoli


----------



## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Lon said:


> Pretty boy


Nah, I just don't bother with dating anymore.


----------



## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Livvie said:


> I'm right there with you! I feel like you do. I work hard, but don't have a lot of earning power right now. I was a SAHM for over a decade, got divorced, and it is like I'm starting over again in my career. I have been dating a man for a long time who even though makes twice what I do, treats me to dinner about 3 times a year. I went years with him splitting dinner tabs, even though he usually orders multiple drinks (I do not) and meals that sometimes cost twice what I order (I am a vegetarian for the most part). I ended up paying not only for for my meal but a lot of his, everytime!!! It wasn't even a 50/50 split. Having experienced this and paying much more for dates than my dating partner who makes twice what I do, if I were dating again I would appreciate a man who would care to treat me on a first date, at least. It would speak volumes to me about what kind of a person he may be = generous and perhaps at least fair down the road (because I do swing my own weight and more in a relationship.)


well, on the first date and he does that , I would have paid for own food that entered my mouth and never waste another second with him , not even on phonecalls . You should not have dated him thrice in a year . He got a good meal deal .

he is not even a worthwhile friend to have


----------



## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

Basic"FairyDust"Love said:


> Going out to eat is overrated. I can easily stay home and eat. I would never go on a date with a man just for free food. I would only go on a date to get to know someone. That can be done with or without food.


yup . my time is valuable .:iagree:


----------



## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

LongWalk said:


> I wonder how often women who have gone on a couple of dates sleep with a guy who has paid for dinners and entertainment, although they don't really think the relationship is going anywhere?
> 
> Women wouldn't sample a guy in bed just to see if he might be better at sex that they expect, would they?


I know some women who wants to score , just like some men .

n mind you , they are prettier than me , but they sleep with many guys I wont even bother to spend time having dinner with since there is no possibility of physical attraction . I never figure out why .


----------



## tripad (Apr 18, 2014)

followed the whole thread. interesting . widely differing opinion.

recently finalized divorce after separated more than a year . probably may date soon if someone worthwhile dating comes up .

so wondered about the who pays what issues .

with me ex , I earn more in many initial years . I paid more expensive dinners and he paid less expensive ones . I got the car and he doesn't offer petrol . I didn't mind .

but during the marriage , I was horrified that he and his family splurge , apparently on my account . till he's in debt repeatedly n that I had to bail . all this even though his salary now is higher than mine as I decided to work less to spend time on the children.

I realized that his mentality is that he finance himself n his family over that side while this household here with me is my responsibility . I think I had married a selfish user . counselor thinks he has personality problem .

going forward , if I am to date again , I am worried that a man will like me for what I can bring to the table .

thinking that for future dates , I will never pay again . but reading all these differing views doesn't give me any definitive answers .

however , there's this friend who has been giving me encouragement and advice and who seemed interested . he bought coffee once to hear me sob . not wanting to be a free loader , I delivered a home cooked meal .

:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


----------



## GA HEART (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm female and have almost always paid for myself, and for them a lot of times too. I think it's the stubborn, independant streak in me. 

Sure, I HAVE had guys pay for stuff......prepurchased tickets to a comedy show or circus, etc. But sometimes, early in my dating, if they paid they felt entitled to an "afterparty." Since those occasions happened early on, I think it messed with me. I don't OWE anyone sex, I am not a hooker. Jerks. LOL!


----------



## lookinforhelpandhope (Apr 10, 2013)

OP, I haven't read all the responses but in reply to the original question:

I really do appreciate when I guy offers to pay but never assume that they're going to. If I happen to be with someone who prefers to pay then great, but find ways to show some appreciation so they don't end up feeling like an ATM. For example, suggest going somewhere/doing something he likes, even if you don't. If you've been dating for a little while offer to drive him to diner so he can have a few beers or fill his car with gas on the way home. Heck, once in a while just go pay the check while he's at the bathroom!

You get the idea.

If you're the type of woman who expects a man to pay for everything and your date isn't comfortable with that, it's probable a good indication you'll have other differences also.


----------



## wife21 (Feb 21, 2015)

During my dating life before marriage I always insisted on paying 1/2 the time. If he paid for movie tickets, I got dinner next time we went out. I'm a very independent, proud woman. 

A lot of girls don't feel this way, they want a Disney prince who will bend over backwards for them.


----------



## Mr.D.E.B.T. (Jul 19, 2012)

So much has been said, but I will just add this. Whatever you do in the beginning of the relationship typically is expected for the remainder of it. Don't pay for all dates if you don't expect to do so in a marriage, and vice versa. Be completely honest before things get too serious or you will be in for some real problems in the future.


----------



## kokonatsu (Feb 22, 2013)

before i met my husband, i went to dinner three times with a guy.. once with his friends, twice just the two of us.. he paid for me all three times, but never made a move on me.. i tried to invite him out a couple times, but he always declined, and then we fell out of contact. I have no idea why he paid for me all those times.. maybe he expected me to make the move, but i am a coward when it comes to that. 

but then when i met my husband, he was very poor, and i supported him a bit (so he could buy data so we could talk while we were long distance!) and then when we moved in, i supported us.. but he always said he feels bad about me paying all the time, and he just wants to find a job to support us. and now we are in my home country and he is working on getting a job, and being the main breadwinner. 

so there are two very different scenarios with different outcomes.. 
and i don't believe for a second that I'm going to be the one supporting my family for the remainder of our relationship, because my husband is a very hard worker. and now that we're married, we pool all our resources together so it doesn't matter who pays, because we are both paying.


----------



## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I was taught to let the guy pay. But I do earn my own money...so I don't think there is any hard and fast rule...here are on some thoughts. 

I am doing a lot of online date right now. So if it's a meet and greet I think it should be something very casual and inexpensive and we should go dutch. However, if we like each other...he should ask me out and he should pay. A date doesn't have to be expensive to be fun. I'm into hiking so he could take me on a hiking date, pay for the parking and pack a picnic lunch. I love the zoo. I love museums. None of these things are very expensive. And since a lot of the guys I'm dating have kids, many of them probably have zoo passes. 

I haven't gotten to this point, but I think after a couple of dates, it's my turn to plan something and whatever it is, I take on the cost. Perhaps I make dinner...or we go see a local band...or I pack the picnic lunch when we go for a hike.


----------



## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

I always considered it an unwritten rule that whoever asked for the date paid for the date.

That being said, even when I was asked out I'd always at least attempt to pick up the tab.

It's just one of the few tradition roles I'm stuck in I guess.


----------



## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

I think most men, including myself, enjoy paying for the date. It is enjoyable to treat someone nice and add in flourishes of surprise.

However, I think there are situations where some women approach a dating situation with a high degree of entitlement. And yes, while I agree a women is allowed to be selective in her mate, any overt demands of "This is my bar...anything we do MUST exceed my expectations or I'll grouse and sneer" can get very old. 

I think the WORST thing a woman (a man too, I suppose) can do on a date is be rude to the service staff...or complain about everything. That sort of behavior, the I-want-the-princess-treatment, can be very off-putting.

My feeling is that if I had planned the evening or day, then I ought to pay...unless there is a prearranged rule concerning going dutch. At the same time, unless I am married or the relationship is on a SERIOUS track, I probably wouldn't be very open to arm-twisting about forking over loads of cash for a simple date...especially when it may only be a test of my financial viability.


----------



## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

BlueWoman said:


> You guys have given me a lot to think about. I was taught to let the guy pay. But I do earn my own money...so I don't think there is any hard and fast rule...here are on some thoughts.
> 
> I am doing a lot of online date right now. So if it's a meet and greet I think it should be something very casual and inexpensive and we should go dutch. However, if we like each other...he should ask me out and he should pay. A date doesn't have to be expensive to be fun. I'm into hiking so he could take me on a hiking date, pay for the parking and pack a picnic lunch. I love the zoo. I love museums. None of these things are very expensive. And since a lot of the guys I'm dating have kids, many of them probably have zoo passes.
> 
> I haven't gotten to this point, but I think after a couple of dates, it's my turn to plan something and whatever it is, I take on the cost. Perhaps I make dinner...or we go see a local band...or I pack the picnic lunch when we go for a hike.


I'm my tiny little town, zoo admittance isn't cheap, like $9 bucks a person, museums are at least as much. It's not much to pay once in awhile, but when you are single and trying to date once or twice a week and as a guy (especially a single dad) you are always expected to pay, even the cheapest options add up fast, and adding a fancy supper with drinks into the mix can quickly consume the disposable income.


----------



## toolforgrowth (Apr 24, 2012)

All the women I've dated post divorce have either offered to go dutch, treated me out sometimes, or bought me little items to show their appreciation. One xGF would buy my drive thru sometimes. Small, yet I appreciated it. Another bought me an expensive bottle of wine once.

My current GF is on SSI (she had debilitating gastroparesis), is going to school, and has two kids, so money is a little tight for her. I typically pay for everything. When she can she'll pay for my drive thru, or get me little gifts, and also helps out with chores around my house. So she shows her gratitude and contributes in other ways that are available to her.

The bottom line is I can tell she totally loves me. I know she's not out to get me to pay for things for her, because whenever I say that I've spent enough money this month and I really want to maximize the amount I want to put in savings this month, she's like "not a problem. Let's just go to your place, watch Doctor Who, and snuggle all night." We find many ways to have fun that don't require money, and it's even better when they require nudity. :smthumbup:


----------



## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I agree there are many ways to make a first date cheap and if more time is desired it gets easier to continue dating and share the cost without a tit for tat approach. I love treating my guy - it might be preparing a nice dinner, surprising him with tickets to his favorite activity or something free  but definitely easy to take the pressure off.


----------

