# 20 great, 7 terrible years - does trust come back?



## DocHoliday

Looking for long term relationship advice.

Married 25 years, together 28 total -- since high school.
We had a marvelous run for about 20 years, then the big 4-0 hit him like a truck.

He really had a "inapropriate relationship" with a gal from work at this time, - not a physical affair, but certainly an emotional one.
He then decided that "I was going to change if I liked it or not." At the time, I saw no reason to change (I am a very strong woman)
and I did not know about other woman. I was giving 110% for my family and life, he worked 12 hours a day... and I WAS labeled the problem?

It has been 7 years of hell. I feel the "drama" is over and I do love him, but do not feel marriage was worth what I had to endure to stay here.

He has pulled stunt after stunt on me, from the EA, to hanging out in bars with very drunk women, to hysterical anger at me and the teenagers....

Sooooo...
He has gotten counseling, says he is willing to work on marriage.
Things have gotten better, but I feel very much cheated.

We have done MC, (a few years) not alot improved, but I guess it did keep up married. HE does act better to me now, but the "war" has lessoned my respect and love for this man.

Does the love come back over time? He says all married couples have crap years, but I don't know. The MC says my feelings of pain will reside with time... I am only 46! Not 100.

I have a lot to offer someone, and I am quite tired of being "the villian" to his "victim".......... 

I think the marriage can be OK, but I do not feel like it will ever be "great" again. He thinks it can be GREAT!, ( I find that a real gas, considering he is the one who CREATED the war)
Now I live with depression and anxiety. I really don't trust my husband. I was raised that marriage is forever.. I really would hate to be single....but
I know deep inside that if I have to find out/live with one more big lie or stunt I will crack.

On the outside, we look like a great couple. In truth, we used to be. Now I just feel sad (PTSD?) about this entire mess. I guess many women would be glad the marraige survivied. I feel depressed.

Some days (in fact, most days) are OK. I do have feelings for him, but I really have regrets about staying here.

Is he right? Can a bad marriage (if I had to rate it, I would give it a 5 out of 10) ever get back to good?


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## DocHoliday

About half the time, I feel OK about the marriage. The other half of the time, I feel sad/anxiety/anger.

Is this normal? Part of me thinks "Of course, DocH, you have been drug through hell... and you never knew why".. 

but another part of me wants to share my life with someone who deserves what I have to offer.....I am NOT saying I am innocent in all this, but I certainly did nothing to warrent what I was handed.


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## MiriRose

Hi there ~ I haven't been married as long as you, but my husband and I have been through a rough season in our marriage, as well. We did make it through, and I am thankful to say that we are stronger now than we were before. You said that the difficulties in your marriage lasted for seven years... how long have things been better, or is this still an ongoing problem? When was the last time you both spoke with a MC? Does your husband know your feelings?


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## DocHoliday

It is better now, I don't seem to be able to forgive, well I can forgive, but not forget. 
He has no problem saying "I'm over it! Through church, he has confessed and apparently is ready to start over.

I remember all the ****ty details, I remember how it feels to be lied to, over again, he told his family he was divorcing me... on Thanksgiving, no less... wonders why I won't go there anymore. Especially near the holidays.

I know I have to forgive, but I can't forget. 

I do not love him the same way, though I love him. 
Knowing your husband trolled the Internet dating sites behind your back just kills. He does not think that was that bad an offense. Because "he never did anything".

He also had an emotional affair with a divorced girl from work... Even though she did not like him "that way", who wants to be married to someone who would do this?
I never looked outside this marriage.

I am not perfect, by a long shot... But he took off his wedding ring, for weeks at a time, I'm not stupid, I know what that means.

Quit the last counselor a few months ago, to much relief on my part. It was not helping. 

He knows how I feel, he does not care. Well, he cares, he thinks it is my problem to deal with. 

Tells me to get over it. I have lost respect for him. He thinks it should be freely given. There are so many stunts and pains over the last few years,


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## DocHoliday

There are times, weeks, months even, when things go ok. 

He is not a bad person, but i think he has been a bad husband to me.
He thinks he is "just a good guy". He believes he has been a good husband, and a good father. He really does.

I can only talk about how I see him. As a husband to me. 

Some days I think it's fine, fine at best, not good.
My hope is that my love can be restored... He quit doing the bad things...... And he treats me ok, now.


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## DocHoliday

PS. I was always told that if you make it through you will be stronger, well, we made it through ( or we are still going through) but I feel the relationship is half of what it was....

I would like it to get better, but I have not a lot of hope... Yes, I know im depressed about this.


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## sandc

After being married for 25 years I've found that for me love is a choice. It's not a feeling. My wife and I have both been through periods of time where we're not "in love" with each other. But we take our vows seriously and we stick with it.

By the way, forgiveness doesn't mean a penalty isn't paid. You say you go to church so you know that already. You can forgive him but still not trust him. That's the penalty he pays.


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## Red Sonja

What you have is a husband who wants a “free pass” (i.e. no consequences) after 7 years of affairs and/or trolling for affairs. That is unacceptable and not possible. It is HIM that needs to do the hard work of regaining YOUR trust.

I would suggest that you have this post moved to the Coping With Infidelity section (PM a moderator); there are members there that can advise you on how to proceed and will validate your experience.


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## MEM2020

Doc,
His delivery style is very jerky. 

You write: I am a very strong woman

A third party reader hears: I didn't care that he was clearly very unhappy and didn't have any interest in changing.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
He then decided that "I was going to change if I liked it or not." At the time, I saw no reason to change (I am a very strong woman)
and I did not know about other woman. I was giving 110% for my family and life, he worked 12 hours a day... and I WAS labeled the problem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>





DocHoliday said:


> It is better now, I don't seem to be able to forgive, well I can forgive, but not forget.
> He has no problem saying "I'm over it! Through church, he has confessed and apparently is ready to start over.
> 
> I remember all the ****ty details, I remember how it feels to be lied to, over again, he told his family he was divorcing me... on Thanksgiving, no less... wonders why I won't go there anymore. Especially near the holidays.
> 
> I know I have to forgive, but I can't forget.
> 
> I do not love him the same way, though I love him.
> Knowing your husband trolled the Internet dating sites behind your back just kills. He does not think that was that bad.
> 
> He also had an emotional affair with a divorced girl from work... Even though she did not like him "that way", who wants to be married to someone who would do this?
> I never looked outside this marriage.
> 
> I am not perfect, by a long shot... But he took off his wedding ring, for weeks at a time, I'm not stupid, I know what that means.
> 
> Quit the last counselor a few months ago, to much relief. It was not helping. He knows how I feel, he does not care.
> 
> Tells me to get over it. I have lost respect for him. He thinks it should be freely given. There are so many stunts and pains over the last few years,


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## DocHoliday

Oh, MEM, I know I was alpha in the house. I KNOW I did not want to change things, ( like most dominant people, i saw no reason to change )

Lord! I KNOW now he was unhappy and I did not " get it ".. Never said I was innocent.

I thought things were, well, good. Ups and downs, but assuredly a good life lead by two decent people.

The punishment for being super mom should not be to be villainized, that's how I feel. Way back then, he wanted change, without working on himself he forced the issue, .....on, apparently, me.

I was not ready to accept that I was "the problem.", like he wanted to say. (at this time I did not know about his female co worker friend) Hell, I gave 110% for my family.... Apparently it was not enough.

I try not to think about it, but it makes me sad.

Yeah, he was in an inappropriate friendship at work... He got "go home and be a real man" advice...
I feel I paid dearly... For doing what I THOUGHT I was supposed to

Yeah, I know that sounds sorry for myself. He seemed to me, and. Those who knew him, like a switch was flipped...
today, he would tell you he is a better man.

It has been a long time since he has done anything Decietful/cruel / mean, but I still can't shake the horrible feelings sometimes. I don't know if my " full love" will come back.

As you can see, I still have a hard time accepting my responsibility for what happened.... I honestly do not feel I was this much at fault.

This is probably why I am still angry,
The anger fades, over time, but I'd like to have a trusting, loving relationship.


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## DocHoliday

I should add, on his behalf, that he didn't believe in EA at the time, and does not feel like he did anything wrong with her.

He looked at dating sites ( to see what was out there ) but never registered or contacted anyone. He claims this was cureosity, boredom and done a few times a year.
Again, he claimed he felt he was doing "nothing wrong"

He says now it was wrong, because it hurt my feelings, but I really don't feel he thinks that basically, did anything wrong.. Because I did not understand his thinking... Screwy, I know


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## MEM2020

Doc,
It really is ok - you didn't understand this dynamic and he wasn't willing to step up and go head to head with you. 

I agree that what he did was cowardly. I do. 

We are all grown ups here, you don't have to talk in code. It is genetically normal to do certain things that are - not talked about much in polite society. 

Alpha wife overpowers beta husband and slowly loses desire. Throws herself totally into Mom/house mode and convinces herself she is "too tired" for her husband most of the time. 

This is normal stuff. He is every bit as responsible for that outcome as you are. 

And it feels awful to both of you:
He feels that you violated your vow to "love" him like a wife loves a husband. 

And you feel he violated his vow to forsake all others. 

You are both right. And I sincerely hope you can find a way to forgive each other. 






DocHoliday said:


> Oh, MEM, I know I was alpha in the house. I KNOW I did not want to change things, ( like most dominant people, i saw no reason to change )
> 
> Lord! I KNOW now he was unhappy and I did not " get it ".. Never said I was innocent.
> 
> I thought things were, well, good. Ups and downs, but assuredly a good life lead by two decent people.
> 
> The punishment for being super mom should not be to be villainized, that's how I feel. Way back then, he wanted change, without working on himself he forced the issue, .....on me.
> 
> I was not ready to accept that I was the problem. Hell, I gave 110% for my family.... Apparently it was not enough..
> 
> Yeah, he was in an inappropriate friendship at work... He got "go home and be a real man" advice...
> I feel I paid dearly... For doing what I THOUGHT I was supposed to
> 
> Yeah, I know that sounds sorry for myself. He seemed to me, and. Those who knew him, like a switch was flipped...
> today, he would tell you he is a better man.
> 
> It has been a long time since he has done anything cruel / mean, but I still can't shake the horrible feelings sometimes. I don't know if my " full love" will come back.


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## DocHoliday

I should add this was years ago. He has learned, through his IC better ways of dealing with himself.
I guess I could agree with that...

But I was so gullible, I never saw it coming. So I'd probably never see it coming, again.


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## DocHoliday

MEM...
That is very accurate. Thank you for that


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## DocHoliday

Well, at the time his job was terrible, (famous bankruptcy.. Look where I live for a clue...). There was nothing he could control there. 
You are right, he was happy to and very much liked me to run the house, maybe too happy, because that was a lot of responsibility and too much work for me. I did most housework, all cooking, raised the kids, worked full time and earned both my Masters and Specialists degree.

He "helped" with the kids and worked like a dog. Just like today, there is no room for negotiation. He has to work like that...they all do, or get fired. Period. I felt running the house was the least I could do. I was good at it.



I never neglected him, (well to my mind) I thought I was living what a normal life was. Got my azz kicked for a reward, tho..


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## DocHoliday

Hey, this writing is rather, carthartic < sp.? I see why people ramble on...
He was so passive aggressively hostile. His fury used to seep out, at me and the kids .. But put on a mask of "I'm such a good/nice guy."
I was angry, rude too, but not in this way. I have developed much sarcasm as a result... 

I know, terrible habit. 
I know now I was just being reactive to what I considered an attack. That is how I felt my life ran, out of control for a few years.... I would discover some bat shyte crazy thing he did... I had to deal with consequences....


I will have to say he is better now with the anger... But he still yells a lot when I bring up past.....


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## iheartlife

DocHoliday said:


> I should add, on his behalf, that he didn't believe in EA at the time, and does not feel like he did anything wrong with her.


Does he still feel this way?

It sounds to me like he had an emotional affair and has never truly expressed remorse for that betrayal of the marriage. Instead, he's 'rugswept' it; although he's gone to counseling, he's basically saying that's in the past, get over it, we're going on to GREAT things.

I highly recommend that you take a look at the book Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. She was a nationally-recognized infidelity researcher. Her book summarizes much of known research, including her own original research. It's a rather one-of-a-kind book, definitive on the subject of emotional affairs in particular.

In my signature is a link to the google excerpts. You can't read the whole book that way, but you can see the table of contents, you will immediately see how it applies to you.

I would read that book ASAP. I would ask your husband to read it, too. Then I'd find a marriage counselor who is familiar with the book, because they will "get it" as most people don't when it comes to emotional affairs. (My H had a long term EA with a co-worker, and we found a great MC this way.)

I also second the motion that you ask that your post be moved to Coping with Infidelity, because that is precisely why you are struggling--you are not coping well with his infidelity. The fact that it might not be happening right now (how do you know this, BTW? Just curious) doesn't mean that you aren't suffering mightily from the aftereffects, yes, with PTSD, depression, anxiety, and a whole host of other results of the emotional abuse an EA can cause.


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## DocHoliday

Well, iheart, 
I have heard of that book before, I will download it onto my kindle, but I am afraid that it will send me in a tailspin.

He says he now knows that the relationship was inapropriate. Any relationship where you go to another sex friend and tell your marriage issues to is wrong.

Before, he refused to even call it an affair, he would say "inappropriate",(but in his mind no sex= no affair or cheating) but I found a few years ago, notes where he listed the works he had an affair on his "bad list". He says he was referring to that emotional affair at that time/that person - and the EA.

He has never confessed anything sexual by nature, (no sexting or sexual conversations and such with that woman) but I have a strong feeling that it could have gone there, had I not caught it and exploded. I beleive it was in part she was going to be married soon, and she was a very flirty person by nature, who happened to work 10 hours a day with my H. 
This I put all on him, I took no vows with her- she made no promise to me.

His IC has told him to apologise for hurting me and *stop talking *about it. She believes there is nothing more to gain by going over the problem. There has to be some truth to that, it was 7 years ago (almost)

I will pop over to the infidelity section, but I do read MB, and it really triggers me, sometimes to a point that is too much (my H did not do what some of the other posters did, but my empathy sets me off)


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## iheartlife

DocHoliday said:


> Well, iheart,
> I have heard of that book before, I will download it onto my kindle, but I am afraid that it will send me in a tailspin.
> 
> He says he now knows that the relationship was inapropriate. Any relationship where you go to another sex friend and tell your marriage issues to is wrong.
> 
> Before, he refused to even call it an affair, he would say "inappropriate",(but in his mind no sex= no affair or cheating) but I found a few years ago, notes where he listed the works he had an affair on his "bad list". He says he was referring to that emotional affair at that time/that person - and the EA.
> 
> He has never confessed anything sexual by nature, (no sexting or sexual conversations and such with that woman) but I have a strong feeling that it could have gone there, had I not caught it and exploded. I beleive it was in part she was going to be married soon, and she was a very flirty person by nature, who happened to work 10 hours a day with my H.
> This I put all on him, I took no vows with her- she made no promise to me.
> 
> His IC has told him to apologise for hurting me and *stop talking *about it. She believes there is nothing more to gain by going over the problem. There has to be some truth to that, it was 7 years ago (almost)
> 
> I will pop over to the infidelity section, but I do read MB, and it really triggers me, sometimes to a point that is too much (my H did not do what some of the other posters did, but my empathy sets me off)


While the book is extremely painful to read in some ways--I ain't gonna lie to ya--it's very comprehensive on how to move PAST the affair.

I hope your counselor is helping you with ruminating, however. You sound like you are living in the past. The other thing that made a huge difference for me was learning to live in the moment.
A book like this one can help enormously with that:

Mindfulness: An Eight-Week Plan for Finding Peace in a Frantic World: Mark Williams, Danny Penman, Jon Kabat-Zinn: 9781609618957: Amazon.com: Books


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## DocHoliday

Ya, I have the CD and the Mindfulness way through depression, by one of the aforementioned gents....

....I am too impatient to do the CD,
I keep it in my car, I should go back to it.


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## iheartlife

How much time has passed since "things have gotten better." Has he cut out that inappropriate behavior? Is he contrite? Does he "get it"--or do you still have issues with how he handles boundaries in marriage?


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## DocHoliday

Well, he has been better. 7 years ago he had the EA, (think it was this relationship that caused a lot of critique of the marriage) He cut down the time he spent with her – but never directly addressed the issue, and now he does not work with her. It was really one sided, on his part - but a huge insult to the marriage.
I must say that at the time of exposure, I did hit him, and was arrested. We have a zero tolerance in my county, and that’s what happens when you lose your temper. Not my proudest moment. All charges were dismissed and dropped, but it was the worst time of my life, I still have anxiety/issues over this.
I have not forgotten his part in that fiasco, either. He walked away playing the victim, and he really was not. For quite a few weeks, he did not show remorse (nor empathy) at his actions or for what happened. My counselor thought he was a horrible person, advised me strongly to get out of the marriage. He was horrible at that time. Why I did not take her advice and end the marriage right there, I don’t know.
……………………..anyway….
The online trolling has been harder for him to quit, I think. A very childish passive aggressive way of getting back at me, I guess. He still thinks I made too much of this, because, again “he didn’t do anything.”
His home internet use has been cut by 97%, he cannot access these sites from work, so I am pretty sure it has stopped.


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## DocHoliday

As far as incidents with real women, there is only one time I remember, about 2.5 years ago....

…..there was this one time that he was out drinking at the corner pub, a sloppy drunk woman (she was drinking random leftover drinks because she was cut off), was hanging all over him, he was doing nothing to dissuade her. I walked in and saw this.
The bartender (friend of a friend) said he did nothing wrong, but he did not get rid of her, either. So his boundaries with women are not good. (Even tho he would tell you they were stellar )
Besides these points, in many years, I cannot find any other incidences of infidelity, or looking for infidelity.

That being said,
I should be feeling better, but I don’t.


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## DocHoliday

He has tried to cut down work hours, he has cleaned up more around the house (that was a two year battle)
He has learned how to deal with his anger better, 

but he is far from perfect on the anger scale.

I do love him, but it is way diminished from what it was. I thought if you survived, you were stronger, 

That is not the case...
I don't understand why. I have tried counselors, religion, books, meditations. Yes, it has gotten slightly better, but I still don't feel good about the marriage.


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## MiriRose

Thank you for the additional details, Doc. I can totally relate to where you are at, and I also agree with one of the previous posters that mentioned "love is a choice." 

I've found that concentrating on my husband's good qualities, and refusing to allow myself to even think of the past hurts has brought about such positive change! Of course, it is a battle that I've had to fight in my mind. The temptation is there to open up those old wounds, especially when new conflicts come up. I pray that you will find some peace about all of this, and that you and your husband will be able to connect in a healing way. 

I also have a couple book recommendations for you: _Total Forgiveness_ and _From Anger to Intimacy_


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## DocHoliday

It is hard to even write all this stuff down.


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## MiriRose

DocHoliday said:


> It is hard to even write all this stuff down.



I totally understand, and I hope that you'll find what works for *you* and *your marriage*. Just one more thing that I wanted to point out that might help. I work with Focus on the Family (the books I linked to above are from their site) and they have phone counselors that can speak with you at no cost. They are all licensed therapists. If you'd like to talk with one of them, you can call 1-855-771-HELP (4357). More info is available on the Focus website. 

Hang in there!


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## MEM2020

Doc,
Totally understandable that you feel anxious. 

I will offer you a prediction: 
1. As the alpha you will make a conscious effort to make things good with him or
2. You will eventually catch him doing something inappropriate

This is a simple but painful decision tree. Either he is an inherently bad guy in which case you should end it now. Or he is looking for validation/love/sex that he is not getting from you. Only you have a valid view on that. 

Your anger is valid, and it is also true you won't get to a positive outcome where he remains loyal if he is chronically love starved.







DocHoliday said:


> He has tried to cut down work hours, he has cleaned up more around the house (that was a two year battle)
> He has learned how to deal with his anger better,
> 
> but he is far from perfect on the anger scale.
> 
> I do love him, but it is way diminished from what it was. I thought if you survived, you were stronger,
> 
> That is not the case...
> I don't understand why. I have tried counselors, religion, books, meditations. Yes, it has gotten slightly better, but I still don't feel good about the marriage.


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## indiecat

Has he ever explained why he had the EA or went on dating sites?

Did he feel unloved in some way? Mid life crisis? 

Has he expressed true remorse for the hurt he caused you? Have you told him that if he can't acknowledge how deeply his secret life hurt you then you can't find peace?

Yes the innocence is gone, in every long term marriage there are many hurts; alcoholism, drug use, affairs, gambling, verbal abusive behaviour, selfishness. It's hard to find a marriage that is not touched by something. But if he lies again, no doubt you are done. And there is no shame in admitting that your feelings changed after his EA and you want to separate. Don't stay if it makes you mentally or physically ill. 

Only you know if he is a good man who did a stupid thing, or a bad man who did a bad thing.


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## DocHoliday

MEM; Yes, I agree. Sometimes (even when things are good) I feel like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop...
This is due to the fact that I NEVER SAW anything coming. And multiple lies, multiple shenanigans.

He is very afraid of looking like the "bad guy". I don't know if people here beleive in this, but it was how he was raised. The punishments for wrongdoings was so overbearing and out of whack, the siblinge NEVER admitted to anything.

To this day you cant get the truth out of them. Just a way of life. By and large, my husband is not like this. He goes to church, joined a religious group of men, does charitable work.
Really consideres himself quite a catch, I gave him 110% husband points, until the poo hit the fan.

This is not just me...ot one person who knows us (family and 20 year friends) can beleive the things that have been found out.

He hates that I can't get over his past. He does not beleive he has done anything "that bad" or unforgivable.

I, on the other hand, was raised in a large family that had struggles. Struggles with money, and struggles with health. My dad passed when I was 13, terrible form of cancer. He ultimately died at home. 
we stuck together no matter WHAT. No matter what someone does, you stick by your fam. 
whoa. gotta go. more later..


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## DocHoliday

My husband is a good man, who does stupid things. 

OR he is a good man and father, just a not so good husband.
( in certain areas...)

I'm sure he would never talk without integrity at work. His job is based on that (working with others). He can look me straight in the face and lie. I know that now. 

Even tho he says he has not done it in a long, long time... and I have not reason to doubt that fact, it is a real eye opener to stumble on that information.....

I guess all people can decieve, but imagine the one you trust most, the one you thought was not going to stab you in the back...

I know, I need to get over this or I need to get out.....

Thank you everyone for letting me ramble on, it is making the obvious, well,,, obvious.

But that makes my contributions a not so good wife.

There have been so many dumb deciets, I feel if I find one more, I wont be able to take it.


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## DocHoliday

We are both very much model people (or we used to be). All the kids friends hung out at out house, and I hold a teacher of the year award from my school.
I am not talking popularity contests here, I am respected as one of the most fair people for kids to work with (in my content area, I get a lot of disruptive people that frequently can not get along in other classes.)

When my husband and I get along, it is something short of amazing. When we fight, I can hardly focus.......
I guess you could say I am a different person when homelife is bad.

but I guess that is universal....


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## MiriRose

DocHoliday said:


> We are both very much model people (or we used to be). All the kids friends hung out at out house, and I hold a teacher of the year award from my school.
> I am not talking popularity contests here, I am respected as one of the most fair people for kids to work with (in my content area, I get a lot of disruptive people that frequently can not get along in other classes.)
> 
> When my husband and I get along, it is something short of amazing. When we fight, I can hardly focus.......
> I guess you could say I am a different person when homelife is bad.
> 
> but I guess that is universal....


That's great you've been so successful in your field -- congrats on the award you received!

Yes, I agree that it is hard to focus when fighting... I do think that is something that effects most people. Focus on the Family did address this topic on the program last week: "Fighting for a Stronger Marriage"

I hope things begin to improve for you and your husband very soon. Blessings to you!


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## ballygirl1971

Wow! I went through something similar. We've been together for 22 yrs. We have two boys 18 & 13. Ups and downs in a marriage are normal but the mental abuse I endured during those times were unforgivable. Then this August he turned 40 and the marraige went from ok to crazy. In the last two months I've lost damn near 15 lbs due to the stress of his depression, mental brake down, drinking, prescription drug abuse and finally an affair with a fellow AA member. I've put up with a lot. Mental abuse causes lasting damage to the selfesteem of the abused. On the outside our marriage too look great. I'm not a complainer so my family and friends never knew how bad he treated me when he would drink. They didn't know how lonely and neglected emotionally I was. He's a good provider and generally a good person too. I feel exactly as you described your feeling and am suffering from PISD.


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## DocHoliday

Thank you, MiriR, I will check out that link.

BG71 What are you doing to help yourself through this? Neither me nor my husband have a drug abuse problem, so I can only imagine the terrible problem this adds to your marriage.

Do you want to recover? How long has it been bad? I am not the expert on this (as you can read) but I do know how a long term marriage has different dynamics then a short one.


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## DocHoliday

Decorum
Thank you for your time. 
I think I understand more the "Superior wife syndrome".. 
Has GREAT and positive points, but if it gets overplayed, can have tremendous backlash. 

The term I am looking for is
Kattywhumpis 

I am starting counceling (individual) on Thurs eve. I just need to straighten things out for myself,

It has been so long, I feel things are better, but I think they are stuck.....

I think I can (and have) learned more on sites like TAM then in any office.

Wish me luck...


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## hope4family

Luck wished Doc.


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## pacmouse

How did you make out with counseling?

You sound so much like me. I know exactly how you feel. I was put through something similar. My husband had a full-on affair for a year.I was made to feel like I was crazy and paranoid. I was put through Hell for a year and suffered silently the entire time because I didn't want family and friends to know or think badly of him. THEN I FOUND OUT the truth behind his behavior and all bets were off and I put on my fighting gloves. It got ugly. When I decided to go against his wishes and do what he wanted he became very scary. I had to call the police on him 3 times. The police reported us to CPS and we were investigated. I guess there was concerns about myself and my kids safety. 

While my H was running around, I was working full-time, taking care of two young kids (4&6) AND going to school full-time to get my Masters. I did this so I could get a pay increase so my H could cut down on his hours. He was working like a dog and I thought this would help him. So, I understand the feelings you have about feeling like you did everything for him and didn't deserve what he did to you.

After I found out the truth. I did the 180. I showed no mercy. I told his family and contacted the OW husband and shared EVERYTHING I knew. Well, *it* really hit the fan on her end and she started throwing my H under the bus. He began to see her for what she was and started to see what he was losing. 

If it weren't for the fact that i have young kids, he showed true remorse, started IC and that before his affair he was a very good husband, I would never have given him a second chance.

However, 3 1/2 years later, I feel similar to you. I do not feel the way I once did for him. Sure, I love him... but it is very different now. He showed a side of himself that I didn't know he had. I sometimes secretly regret giving him a second chance because I know my marriage will never be as special to me as it once was. I honestly feel that I did nothing to deserve it. I was/am a good wife and mother. I don't think being an alpha wife is a bad thing or reason. He knew I was a very strong woman when he met me. In fact, he said that is what he loves about me the most. 

I have learned through many years of MC and IC that it really was/is his problem. His upbringing was messed up and he has a lot of insecurities that I'm not so sure he even understands fully. He does understand that if he ever does anything close to an affair, I am out!!! It is funny to me that the pay increase that I worked so hard for to help him, will actually help me if ever I need to support myself and my kids alone someday. 

Even though He is doing everything he should be doing to earn my trust and he really is trying to show me he regrets everything he put me through, I still feel like you in many ways. My IC tells me it is normal. You are dealing with the loss of something you loved. While you re still married, it is clearly different. I also, have a hard time with dealing with my pride. In that my friends and family know what happened and probably can't understand why I stayed. Heck, I sometimes get mad with myself for staying...

I hope it helps to know you are not alone...


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## DocHoliday

Hello, all.

Just wanted to pop back in and say that I am still working on this. I have seen an IC who has asked me to "stay off the internet boards" for awhile anyway, she believes that the reading is triggering me, and she is probably right. 


This thread and the people who posted on it seem like the most helpful, kindest advice I have been given so far...

and I thank you all for that.

pacmouse I am so sorry for your story, sounds quite a lot like mine.

I'm glad your husband is doing everything he can, my husband wants to share all the blame "50/50". 

His "codependant" counselor supports him in this. It may make him feel better to think this way - but it is very damaging to the relationship.

I do think less of him for not standing up and claiming his actions... (he says he does, but has 5,000 reasons/excuses of why he did everything - very unattractive in a partner...)

I hear you.......

I will try to keep you posted.


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## heavensangel

DocHoliday said:


> It is better now, I don't seem to be able to forgive, well I can forgive, but not forget.
> 
> I know I have to forgive, but I can't forget.


H and I recently did a marriage bible study 'Get Real' by Dale and Jena Forehand. Their marriage journey included what I'd term as a 'nasty' divorce. Forgiveness is one of the topics they discussed. Because I, too, struggle with the forgetting part; what they had to say made me feel like I wasn't crazy. 

What forgiveness is NOT: 

Forgiveness is not forgetting; you must choose what to do with the memory. 

Forgiveness is not automatic reconciliation - the rebuilding of trust/moving past the pain takes times. Forgiveness takes one; REAL reconciliation takes both parties working HARD to get the other through it.

Forgiveness is not for the other person - it's to protect you from anxiety, bitterness, resentment, and hatred. It's for you to have peace within you. You can forgive someone even if/when they never acknowledge their part in your pain. VERY HARD for me to do!!! 

Hope you find this helps if even just a little with your forgiveness/forgetting concerns.


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## curlysue321

As long as he is no longer cheating and willing to work on the marriage I would stay. I was in a dsyfunctional marriage for 24 years to a passive-aggressive man who never communicated his feelings. For years I was unhappy, but once I got my depression treated and learned to accept him as he was I was actually content during the last year of our marriage. I think one's happiness shouldn't be placed entirely on the shoulders of one's spouse. Learn what makes you happy and do it.


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## Woodchuck

DocHoliday said:


> He has tried to cut down work hours, he has cleaned up more around the house (that was a two year battle)
> He has learned how to deal with his anger better,
> 
> but he is far from perfect on the anger scale.
> 
> I do love him, but it is way diminished from what it was. I thought if you survived, you were stronger,
> 
> That is not the case...
> I don't understand why. I have tried counselors, religion, books, meditations. Yes, it has gotten slightly better, but I still don't feel good about the marriage.


Doc
You are living in a pit of resentment. You will never feel any different about your marriage till you move beyond what your husband did in the past. You feel like a martyr for all the work you do, and don't credit your husband for his daily hard work.

My wife and I have been married 47 years, and just got through the worst period of our married lives. I was always the breadwinner, and she the SAHM. I always worked hard. I only had a HS diploma, but am gifted with mechanical ability. I became an engineer with a fortune 500 company by what I could do with tooling and equipment.

When the kids got out of school, my wife started selling Avon. The money was not good, but it gave her something to do outside the house. She became one of the top representatives in the state.

My wife had always been the homemaker, and handled the finances. Taking on the sales job was more than she needed to do, but she loved it, and was good at it...This is when she started feeling like a martyr, and felt she was doing more than her fair share...

Things got rough in 2001. I had just changed jobs, we had bought a new house, and 15 weeks into the new job I got fired. The company had lost a huge lawsuit, and just about went under. I was one of 650 people that were cut in one day...

My first job interview was on 9/11. The job market had tanked, we had 2 mortgage payments. My wife had to start from scratch with her sales business....

We had a tough time financially for the next 4 years. She worked all day selling, and I spent my days online sending out resumes...I picked up short term contract jobs all over. a month here, 5 months there, it was rough......

It was here that my wife lost all respect for me. She thought she was carrying us, while I played online (her words) she could not understand that a resume and cover letter had to be taylored for every specific job, and it took lots of time....She was the martyr, and I was a lazy bum...

I got what I thought was a solid job in St. Louis. They said they had a 3 year backlog of work. I hired on and started work. Three months later I turned in a project and asked "whats next" they said...You are all caught up...Laid off.

By then I was 59. I just wanted a job where I could finish out my career and retire with a little dignity and respect.....
I came home from St. Louis, and got back online. About a month later the phone rang. It was a guy in Panama City Beach Florida. I had sent them a resume, and they were interested....

After a short talk, they said they usualy required a degree in engineering, and a face to face interview, but they were going to waive the degree and send me an offer...

The offer was good, and I drove to Florida and began work...The company designed and built miniature submarines. I worked with the engineers, creating solid models of the components they needed. It was hard work, but it was what I do. I loved it...

After two weeks the vice president called me into an office for a private talk. I figured here it comes again. Instead of a layoff, he said everyone thought I was doing a great job, and gave me a raise. I can tell you when I walked back to my office I had tears in my eyes. I was 600 miles from home, alone, but I had a good job. But I still didn't have my wifes respect...

I had been in Florida for 13 months when my phone rang. It was my wife. Her girlfriends son in law said they needed a mechanical designer where he worked. I asked what the company was, and who the engineering manager was...She told me the company was Denso corp. and mentioned the name of the engineering manager. He was an old co worker, and a good friend. I said "honey I'm coming home"....I called my friend, told him I was available, send me a plane ticket...He said DONE...

My first assignment was a tool to relocate a set of gears and levers during assembly. It was a cause of defects on the line, and 2 people had failed to solve the problem...within 2 weeks I had designed and had built a new tool. It did the job perfectly, and I was a hero....

At the end of that year, My boss told me in my performance review that "You make me look like a genius for hiring you". Over the next 4 years, the senario was repeated time after time. I kept knocking them out of the ballpark (Their words), and everyone respected me, I was back on top. I had the respect of my employer, and my co-workers, but not my wife....

I retired almost 2 years ago. I had made some good investments, had bailed before the bubble broke, and we were financially secure.

My wife had suffered some rough times..She lost two sisters, and was in a deep depression. It seemed to drag on forever...It didn't seem like she would listen to or take any comfort from me. All we did was fight.......We even talked about divorce. After a really big blowout, she said a friend had suggested a book called "The 5 Love Languages". I bought it that day. I didn't think anything would help, but I was a desperate man... 

we read the book together, and decided to love one another again....Every thing is not perfect, just so much better....I cannot express how much happier we are......It is like a second honeymoon 47 years after the first. we communicate, and solve our problems. I know my wife loves and respects me. And I tell her how I feel about her every single day......

It was not the book per se...It was the fact that we wanted to love each other again, and were willing to work to make it better...Any one of a hundred similar books would have probably have worked as well....

Get a copy of the book, tell your husband you WANT TO LOVE HIM AGAIN...Get a motel room for a week end and have a mini marriage retreat. If it helps you and your husband one tenth as much as it helped us you will be a happier couple.....

good luck
the woodchuck


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## justforfun1222

DocHoliday said:


> It is better now, I don't seem to be able to forgive, well I can forgive, but not forget.
> He has no problem saying "I'm over it! .
> 
> I do not love him the same way, though I love him.
> 
> He knows how I feel, he does not care. Well, he cares, he thinks it is my problem to deal with.
> 
> Tells me to get over it. I have lost respect for him. He thinks it should be freely given. There are so many stunts and pains over the last few years,


This is the problem that I am dealing with.. my husband did not have an affair that I am aware of but, at 7 years he up and just left, I lost everything I had, and we have been back together for 3 years since that and I just cannot get over the hurt and resentment and I have been in counseling as well, and my counselor honestly believes that unless I can forgive the marriage is over. I am like you in that I have no respect for him. I think daily about divorce, so much that it consumes my day sometimes. I could handle being single, but like you I thought marriage was supposed to be forever. Maybe someone on here has some sage advice to give us because I am at my wits end with the whole situation, things change for a while and then they are back to the same old crap.. My heart goes out to you..


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