# Girls Night Out - Jealous again.



## MrK

Although I've got some history of being burned while previous girlfriends/wife were on GNO's, Including a short-lived post partum clubbing party spree my current wife went out on a long time ago, I'm actually good with my wife going out. Movies with friends. Lunch. Coffee. Shopping. She even goes away on weekends with friends once or twice a year. Just this past Saturday night, she went out with a group of friends: wine in one of their kitchens before a movie, late dinner afterwards. Home by 11:30. No problem.

However, there are these "innocent" nights out, and there are these:

Nightclubs - My pet peeve. It's what brought me here originally. I have done enough research on this and other forums to know that a clubbing wife/girlfriend is bad. I don't even want to debate that here. These are meat markets. PERIOD. The girls are looking to flirt with and party (or worse) with the boys. You DO have a right to stop it. It's not just innocent fun. Even in the RARE instance where the intent is fully innocent, a "drunken mistake" can easily happen and regularly does. These places are called meat markets for a reason and they exist for people to hook-up. So, if you're really burning to ream me for my controlling behavior and jealousy, there's this:

Parties, concerts, sporting event tailgates, karaoke bars... - Anywhere there's drinking, partying, and groups of men hitting on groups of women. If a woman (my wife) who has some (albeit minor) history of partying with the boys when there's a party around, suddenly gets invited to "an event" by a few school moms I don't really know. An event that will consist of tailgating in the parking lot and a party that continues once they go inside. They drink (she was sick the entire next day). They meet people. Party with them. And when my wife got home, the old "coming home from the meat markets at 2:30" vibe started hitting me immediately. She was secretive and vague about what was supposed to have been a big night for her (she goes to lunch with a friend and will talk to me about it for an hour). And while talking about it with her the next day (she HAD TO talk our daughter) there was an obvious lie thrown in and details remained vague.

It has been quite a few years since the clubbing spree, and this was an individual instance (a friend just happened to have an extra ticket), so I'm not gearing up for a "you can't go out" battle. She'd never been out with these gals, and when the party started, she may have discovered she was in the middle of exactly what she was doing during that long ago party spree and freaked about how she was going to explain it to me (the event was a big deal, so she knew she was going to have to tell us about it). It may have been an inappropriate party but maybe she wasn't ready for it. I don't know.

But what happens if she tells me this group is going to (I'm making this up) one of their cousin's polo team's final game and end of year bash, and they want to know if she can come-with? It's a big deal. Hundreds of people. Lots of drinking and partying...

I am OK forbidding her from going clubbing. She lost clubbing rights a few years ago. But how can I tell her she can't go to concerts and or other parties/events with these gals? How controlling is it to prevent her from going to that concert she wants to go to? Or the big annual steeplechase about an hours drive away is happening and it was PURE LUCK that they were able to score tickets. Great opportunity. Or the girls want to go to the big annual college football game because they all went to the same local school. Complete with full tailgate party in the parking lot before hand. Lot's of booze, people, men looking for action...

I am sure partying with the boys was a big part of last weekend's festivities (the big event, not the movie). Is it always? Can a group of girls who have shown a proclivity to drink and attract men be trusted at these? Isn't it all but GUARANTEED that flirting and partying with strange men will be on the agenda? Just part of what they do when they go out? Even IF the intentions are wholesome, is it even possible for the gals to continue to do this without making some inappropriate, if temporary, new male friends/acquaintances that the husband will never hear about?

I need to know. We men are confused. We can't even imagine being somewhere that gangs of women would want to screw us and we would do anything but acquiesce. How can we handle it? Is it even a bad thing that they do this?


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## Undertheradar

Hey, you may not like my answer.... but here goes.

In 15 years with my wife, I've had three incidents of jealousy, and they always revolve around the "meat markets". All three incidents were used against me, in my wife's recent request for a separation.

So my new approach is... let her go! I say this because if cheating is in her heart, there isn't a thing you're gonna do about it. Of course, the chances are greater that she makes a mistake in that environment. If you make any attempt to stop her, she will HATE you, and RESENT you. I find GNO, to be a nerve among women.

What YOU need to do, is start having guys night out. I'm not suggesting you cheat, but it may be a good time to test your marriage. Let her go. If she loves you, she's not doing anything wrong.
If her partying bothers you, I would have a peaceful, non confrontational talk with her. I would explain that her presence in those meat markets bother you, but you trust her. Experience tells me, the more you try to stop them, the more they want to go.

If I had to do all over again, I'd tell my wife to have a good time, but not to drink past the point of knowing what's she's doing. But I would also tell her to have enough drinks to come home, and get bed blasted by me!
Tell your wife to have fun, and you'll see her when she gets home.

Sorry, I've learned the hard way.


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## the guy

Hell ya its a bad thing they go out with out there husbands..to a envirorment that is subseptable to geting hit on, kissed, and drugged only to wake up with there pants on the floor, looking like a fool with the pants on the floor,wondering "what the hell".

Why would anyone tolorate there SO to be exposed to this atmosphere? Clubbing is ment for single folks. Granted married folks should go and enjoy the clubs as long as the to it together.

These places are sexualy charged and throw in the booze and bamb, you chick is coming home the next day saying "I didn't mean it to happen, it just happened, it was a misstake". 

The mistake was putting them selve in an envirorment that exposes them to just the small possiblity of being taken advandage of by guys sole purpose of being there is to find women.

It not about control it about not tolorating our wifes behavior. They have a free choice in the dicisions they make, just like you have the free choice to make your dicision when they make the wrong one.

I've excepted my chicks GNO for years and now that she see the new man infront of her, a man that knows for a fact that he diserves good things and will not be around to except anything less the. A confident man that is sure that he can find happiness else where. The point is I diserve good things and if my wife make the free choice to not make me happy then I can make the free choice to find someone that will.

We have found that its way better to make each other happy then to risk a dumb dicision for a short time of happiness when its way better to bring each other along enjoy the evening togther with friends and continue in a non resented relationship.

Yes its easy when your W understands that clubbing with out you is a deal breaker. Its when they don't see it and you have to show them the consequences of what you won't tolorate.

And yes I am controlling, I am controlling my happiness so go ahead and go out , I will not hange around, trust me on that. I refuse to be unhappy. I refuse to resent someone that would rather have a GNO instead of getting hit on,flirted with, a drink bought for them, danced with, and kissed by thier own husband, some one that doesn't have to drug there drink to have sex.... there best friend.


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## magnoliagal

I've done the whole GNO thing and while my husband didn't stop me it did piss him off. I paid for it later as he resented me for it. Overall I think it's a bad thing for married women to go out drinking where there are lots of men around. I just think if the roles were reversed would I want my husband out drinking where there were lots of women. Hell no!

I have no idea what you should do but you have my sympathy. That's a tough spot to be in. It's like damned if you do and damned if you don't.


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## magnoliagal

Undertheradar I still think what you did was right. You should have stopped it and you did. Your wife's activities got out of hand.


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## Undertheradar

magnoliagal said:


> Undertheradar I still think what you did was right. You should have stopped it and you did. Your wife's activities got out of hand.


My wife has me thinking otherwise. 
You know how screwed up I am at the moment


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## BigToe

Girls Night Out means going out with the girls, not hanging out with strange men or using GNO as an excuse to hang out with strange men.


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## golfergirl

BigToe said:


> Girls Night Out means going out with the girls, not hanging out with strange men or using GNO as an excuse to hang out with strange men.


GNO - means hanging with my girlfriends at supper and drinks, coffee shop, each other's houses, craft show. H and I mutually decided we don't hang in bars without each other. My friends are all married moms like me - 10 is a late night for us. There's nothing for me at bars anymore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laurae1967

I would question why your wife still feels the need to get blasted to the point that she's hung over the next day. Kind of immature if you ask me.

I do have GNO but not at nightclubs. We have gone to upscale wine bars, restaurants, friend's houses, movies, etc. But we don't go to pick up men! We go to bond with our women friends. 

I guess I would try to get to the bottom of what she is trying to get out of these drinking binges. Is she hoping to relive her college days? Those can't be recaptured. There is nothing wrong with setting limits. If my husband started going to strip clubs, I would have a problem with that. But hanging out with his buddies, going to games, etc. that is fine.


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## Mom6547

golfergirl said:


> GNO - means hanging with my girlfriends at supper and drinks, coffee shop, each other's houses, craft show. H and I mutually decided we don't hang in bars without each other. My friends are all married moms like me - 10 is a late night for us. There's nothing for me at bars anymore.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would not initiate a GNO at a bar. I prefer the ones at people's houses. But when invited, I have gone. And somehow managed to be a responsible adult. Call me crazy, but if you have a problem at home that makes your wife WANT to go out and scope guys, fix the problem at home.


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## Undertheradar

I have an inner circle of friends. They're all married.
I could mention 6 women that go out to a club on GNO, and their husbands say nothing.
The guys all trust their wives, and their wives give them no reason not to trust them
I see the "next day pics" on FB, and I did notice the herd of cattlemen surveying the cattle while they danced. My friends all brag about their wives coming home to them, and not the "cattlemen"

So I guess, a lot has to do with the state of the marriage.
My wife has made me feel that she wanted out. I knew that my marriage was dangling by a thread, and the thought of her going to that environment didn't sit well with me. I let her know how I felt, and it only made it worse.


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## mikey11

women go to clubs for one reason only....attention from men....which is why every single woman in a club is dressed in next to nothing....enough said

any woman that tells you otherwise is lying and is trying to justify her actions with other excuses....


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## Undertheradar

mikey11 said:


> women go to clubs for one reason only....attention from men....which is why every single woman in a club is dressed in next to nothing....enough said
> 
> any woman that tells you otherwise is lying and is trying to justify her actions with other excuses....


I have to disagree.

I have had this conversation with life long female friends. Lots of them just like to go dancing, and take in the energy.


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## magnoliagal

Undertheradar said:


> I have to disagree.
> 
> I have had this conversation with life long female friends. Lots of them just like to go dancing, and take in the energy.


My best friend is like this. Heck she doesn't even like sex all that much. :scratchhead: She just wants to dance and socialize. In her case her husband should let her go. He'd get laid a whole lot more if he did.

Sometimes this situation isn't black or white there are shades of gray.


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## JAG

My wife went out with the girls and as she said it was only to get away and have a laugh with the girls. However i caught her out. She has been flirting with other guys and ended up online chatting to someone on facebook, telling them how lonely she was . When i confronted her over all this. She told me she wanted to seperate. Now we are seperated. Women married with small children who need to go out on GNO are looking for attention and flirting isn't innocent.. I certainly won't forget GNO.


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## PBear

JAG said:


> My wife went out with the girls and as she said it was only to get away and have a laugh with the girls. However i caught her out. She has been flirting with other guys and ended up online chatting to someone on facebook, telling them how lonely she was . When i confronted her over all this. She told me she wanted to seperate. Now we are seperated. Women married with small children who need to go out on GNO are looking for attention and flirting isn't innocent.. I certainly won't forget GNO.


JAG, unfortunately I think your wife would have connected with someone else whether she had a GNO or not. If someone is open to cheating, the opportunities are numerous. You can flirt with someone in a coffee shop or wine bar just as easily as a night club. In fact, since you can actually talk to someone in those venues, it might be even easier.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Magnolia,

Again, we are sympatico.

It's about respect.

Committed partners respect the feelings of the other.

If someone is merely trying to prove "they're more important" than the other partner, the couple has bigger problems that they likely don't even realize.

As is usually the case, the best solution at an impasse is for him to arrange "guy's night out" on the same night.

That usually cools things down.


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## Runs like Dog

If you don't trust your wife to not accidentally boink some stranger at a club why should you trust her in the supermarket? Some of those box boys are pretty buff.....and what if she 'just' goes down on one of other gals she goes out with?

Seriously either you trust your wife or you don't. Either she has a modicum of rational responsibility rolling around in her head or she doesn't. If she's gonna come home with a new tattoo and no panties, well that's just gonna happen, isn't it?


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## magnoliagal

My best friends husband hates it when she goes out but he doesn't get that she needs it like air. She's a social butterfly. If he goes out with the guys she could care less. She wants him to go and fully supports it so that backfires for him. 

But their marriage is not that great so take that into consideration. My husband and I are already making bets on how long that relationship lasts. Till the kids are grown? Till she makes enough money to leave him? They are at the 10 year mark now. Youngest kid is 4.


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## the guy

If married women want the energy then take their H and if H doesn't want to enjoy the energy with them then someone else will. So guys take your chicks out and treat them like a women instead of a wife.

Yes there are shades of gray, but the blackest of the gray is the fact that ones wife want a GNO more then a MCNO=married coulpes night out! That is were the problem lies....at some point MrK's wife is having more fun with out him then with him.


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## magnoliagal

My friend would love it if her husband came with her. He has refused time and time again. He is a stupid man. She's young, hot and just wants to have fun. She doesn't care who comes with her she just wants to be with people.


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## the guy

Thats a shame M- if your friends H only knew what I know now he may have a change of heart. 
Only time will tell for them, but as meesed up as it sound your friends H also has to do the "work" to keep a healthy marriage.
And the same goes for married folk who want to go out clubbing with out there spouse.

What a perfect world it would be if both spouses did the hard "work" in eliminating resentment by avoiding unhealthy behaviors.


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## heartsbeating

My humble opinion is that trust, respect and honesty are needed, not control. I don't understand why it's thought she will get wild going out. She's grown folk, surely she knows how to handle herself by now? Unless it's so rarely that she goes out that she completely lets loose when she does? 

I've been out on 2 GNO recently which I haven't done in a while. Despite my marriage going through issues, there was still no flirting on my part. The first night, a friend and I were heading to a cabaret show but ended up sitting at a bar wrapped in conversation together instead. She's single, I haven't been to a bar where singles hang in years. Yes, we were approached by nearly every man that walked in but I didn't enjoy the attention and didn't reciprocate. We stayed because we enjoyed the intimacy of the bar, good wine and service, and music being played.

The most recent GNO started at friend's house for dinner, then movie, then they suggested we go for a quick drink at a club. Again, I haven't been to a club in years. We found a seat, shared a drink and conversation, reflected on being young and clubbing, talked about how it feels to be our age and comfortable in ourselves. We listened to the crappy music, we giggled at the youngsters and left sober and successfully unflirted with. Granted, we're not doing body shots and dancing on platforms.

GNO at clubs and bars can actually be about girl's getting together. If it's otherwise, then yes, something needs to be looked at. I don't know what the answer is for you. If you hold on too tight, she might rebel anyway.


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## heartsbeating

Runs like Dog said:


> If she's gonna come home with a new tattoo and no panties, well that's just gonna happen, isn't it?


this made me laugh


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## the guy

Why can't GNO's happen at a coffee shop?

Why is it controlling to protect your happiness, and in addition requesting that your spouse stay away from a comprimising situation. (constantly telling bar flies your not interested)

My stance is not the GNO, its the enviorment they choose to have them.


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## heartsbeating

the guy said:


> Why can't GNO's happen at a coffee shop?
> 
> Why is it controlling to protect your happiness, and in addition requesting that your spouse stay away from a comprimising situation. (constantly telling bar flies your not interested)
> 
> My stance is not the GNO, its the enviorment they choose to have them.


I understand what you mean about the environment. Personally this is why I haven't been to clubs in years. I'd rather just be with my girlfriends without male attention. My friends know that I like to be home fairly early, and/or we catch up in non-single environments. The recent bar/club visits for me were not planned. I agree boundaries need to be set in a relationship to suit the couple involved. I'm not sure if happiness can be 'protected' though. Either the person in your life is going to do the right thing by you or they're not.

I can recognize some women might like to go out and dance with the girls and hear music once in a while. That doesn't need to lead to drunken bad behavior. It's up to the individual.


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## the guy

H- you make a good point and I want to address the "protecting happiness"

In my experience I found to easy to avoid a confrontation and I didn't want to be controlling so I was the guy that said "sure you can go have a GNO. I resented it and it did not make me happy, so now my new view is to stand up and let my wife know that i am not OK with it.

May point is many of men are so affraid to be labeled controlling when that let there spouses know what makes them unhappy.

I think we both get it but the reality is when it comes to marriage it is so easy to find resentment and be it a guys night out or a girls night out, a GNO can (if not controlled) can lead to unhealthy behaviors. Lets face it there fun...


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## TLPD

It honeslty doesn't matter where a lady goes, men are going to look and advance on her. I've been in supermarkets in the deoderant aisle and have had a guy ask me out. 

Girls like to go to clubs to dance, because there aren't any other suitable places set up nowadays to go dancing. I, myself don't enjoy going to clubs anymore, but i go for the fact alone of getting the chance to dance. You shouldn't be jealous as you already said you have Banned her from going to clubs and she hasn't gone in ages...but you are now questioning concerts...which is a venue for music and not a "meat market". Absolutely no need to be jealous. Let her go.

Ladies don't go out thinking about "all the guys that want to screw us". We go out because we want to have fun with our friends. Do you go out thinking about who you want to get with when you go out with your friends? I hope not.


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## Undertheradar

TLPD said:


> It honeslty doesn't matter where a lady goes, men are going to look and advance on her. I've been in supermarkets in the deoderant aisle and have had a guy ask me out.
> 
> Girls like to go to clubs to dance, because there aren't any other suitable places set up nowadays to go dancing. I, myself don't enjoy going to clubs anymore, but i go for the fact alone of getting the chance to dance. You shouldn't be jealous as you already said you have Banned her from going to clubs and she hasn't gone in ages...but you are now questioning concerts...which is a venue for music and not a "meat market". Absolutely no need to be jealous. Let her go.
> 
> Ladies don't go out thinking about "all the guys that want to screw us". We go out because we want to have fun with our friends. Do you go out thinking about who you want to get with when you go out with your friends? I hope not.


My wife works at a Walmart. She took the job, just to get out of the house, while the kids are in school.

So far.... In eight months working, she had a 3 month EA, I'm aware of at least two stalkers that went to security seeking her name, AND a friend of mine, who persistently pursued her (not knowing it was my wife).
I can't tell you how many guys walk in there, looking for something, and end up hitting on my wife.
It drives me nuts.

I think I'd rather her go to a club.


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## Runs like Dog

I would love having a wife who comes home happy, tipsy and sweaty.


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## MrK

TLPD said:


> It honeslty doesn't matter where a lady goes, men are going to look and advance on her. I've been in supermarkets in the deoderant aisle and have had a guy ask me out.


I'll be back with a more detailed follow-up, but I had to comment on this real quick:

The grocery store comparison. I love that one.

Do you go to a grocery store BECAUSE that's where the horny boys are? Do you get all dressed up in order for the stock boys to drool over you? Are the men in that particular store BECAUSE that's where the party is and the women are ready to flirt, drink, dance? Does a grocery store exist for the sole purpose of hooking up? You go to to the grocery store because that's where the party is? You think every man at Krogers is there to get laid so you'll take advantage? You stay there for hours just to meet men and party with them?

That's some store.

Dealing with men hitting on you is a fact of life, and is a lot different than going out looking for it and basking in the attention.


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## Wonder2Woman

I think commitment, respect and communication are probably the most important things in a relationship. You should let your wife know how you feel about the idea of her having a GNO, and she should take your feelings into consideration and not go.

In my opinion, going to a nightclub by yourself is something that single people do. If you are in a relationship and want to go to one to have some fun, then take your significant other with you.

Drinking in a bad environment can be very dangerous to a relationship. I still remember when my H decided to go out drinking with the guys (he got wasted) and then cheat on me, so I have pretty much no tolerance for that type of behavior. 

If they choose to be immature and disrespectful, why would you stay in a relationship like that?

Let your significant other know how you feel, and if they love you and care for you, they will listen to you and care for your feelings.


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## Entropy3000

Undertheradar said:


> I have an inner circle of friends. They're all married.
> I could mention 6 women that go out to a club on GNO, and their husbands say nothing.
> The guys all trust their wives, and their wives give them no reason not to trust them
> I see the "next day pics" on FB, and I did notice the herd of cattlemen surveying the cattle while they danced. My friends all brag about their wives coming home to them, and not the "cattlemen"
> 
> So I guess, a lot has to do with the state of the marriage.
> My wife has made me feel that she wanted out. I knew that my marriage was dangling by a thread, and the thought of her going to that environment didn't sit well with me. I let her know how I felt, and it only made it worse.


These type of GNOs are essentially allowing your wife to date other men. It is no excuse that these other guys are ok with it. They are wimps. Don't be a wimp too.

This is single behavior. If one wants to be cuckholded this is a good start.


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## Entropy3000

magnoliagal said:


> My best friend is like this. Heck she doesn't even like sex all that much. :scratchhead: She just wants to dance and socialize. In her case her husband should let her go. He'd get laid a whole lot more if he did.
> 
> Sometimes this situation isn't black or white there are shades of gray.


A husband being happy he is getting laid because he allows his wife to play with other men is more than pitiful.


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## Entropy3000

TLPD said:


> *It honeslty doesn't matter where a lady goes, men are going to look and advance on her.* I've been in supermarkets in the deoderant aisle and have had a guy ask me out.
> 
> Girls like to go to clubs to dance, because there aren't any other suitable places set up nowadays to go dancing. I, myself don't enjoy going to clubs anymore, but i go for the fact alone of getting the chance to dance. You shouldn't be jealous as you already said you have Banned her from going to clubs and she hasn't gone in ages...but you are now questioning concerts...which is a venue for music and not a "meat market". Absolutely no need to be jealous. Let her go.
> 
> Ladies don't go out thinking about "all the guys that want to screw us". We go out because we want to have fun with our friends. Do you go out thinking about who you want to get with when you go out with your friends? I hope not.


Totally absurd statement. It does matter where the wife goes.

A supermarket is not a meat market (club).

1) Drinking
2) Flirting
3) Physical contact / Dancing
4) Sexy clothing, lots of skin and often sans undergarments. Often clothing hubby never gets to enjoy. Special clothing for these activities.
5) Music
6) And yes maybe even ruffies
7) Sexual atmosphere with attention from Alpha males (not nice guys home with their kids)
8) STDs (as a result of "mistakes")
9) Pregnancies (as a result of "mistakes")
10) Maybe even other drugs beyond alcohol
11) This one goes to eleven. If she is ovulating during this time, how much extra resistance will she have? Forgettaboutit.

Going to a club to drink, flirt and dance with men who are only there to bed women who just might be ovulating is way different from going to the supermarket. Get real.

1) It is disrespectful
2) It puts the wife in a very vulnerable position 
3) It is not about trust. 

One should be able to trust thier wife to not be disrespectful and to not put her self out there for other men. A wife going against her husbands wishes has already broken their trust.

Keep in mind husbands are also legally liable for any children born out of the marriage.

Again, why is it ok for wives to go out and behave as a single woman on the make? Effectively dating to find a better male.


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## Entropy3000

Undertheradar said:


> My wife works at a Walmart. She took the job, just to get out of the house, while the kids are in school.
> 
> So far.... In eight months working, she had a 3 month EA, I'm aware of at least two stalkers that went to security seeking her name, AND a friend of mine, who persistently pursued her (not knowing it was my wife).
> I can't tell you how many guys walk in there, looking for something, and end up hitting on my wife.
> It drives me nuts.
> 
> I think I'd rather her go to a club.


With all due respect dude. Your mind just aint right on this stuff. You are choosing between a shovel in the face and a kick in the balls. Neither are right.


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## Sad_Man

My wife does this 5 nights a week on average, not including some weekend days too doing some GNO stuff(gym, eating out, same bars, shopping). She does spend time with friends and family almost every night and usually only comes home an hour or two before bed. 

My only comfort is that I honestly believe my wife wouldn't cheat. She's just too innocent and nice, and she never drinks too much because she's terrified by thought of driving tipsy and even more so by the thought of police and jail. 

That doesnt stop the jealousy though because id rather if she came home, but I let her be herself. she's always been shy but now she's more comfortable socializing so why try and stand in the way of her having fun? Though I have dropped subtle hints and may again. I would really like to see her more. Just trying to be patient as this is a minor issue among other more serious ones.


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## Entropy3000

Sad_Man said:


> *My wife does this 5 nights a week* on average, not including some weekend days too doing some GNO stuff(gym, eating out, same bars, shopping). She does spend time with friends and family almost every night and usually only comes home an hour or two before bed.
> 
> My only comfort is that I honestly believe *my wife wouldn't cheat*. She's just *too innocent and nice*, and she never drinks too much because she's terrified by thought of driving tipsy and even more so by the thought of police and jail.
> 
> That doesnt stop the jealousy though because *id rather if she came home*, *but I let her be herself*. she's always been shy but now she's more comfortable socializing so why try and stand in the *way of her having fun? *Though I have dropped subtle hints and may again. *I would really like to see her more. *Just trying to be patient as this is a minor issue among other more serious ones.


Your wife goes clubbing every night of the week and on weekends goes on GNOs and all sorts of other stuff. She is just too nice to cheat. 

You'd rather she came home.
You would like to see her more.
But instead you support her fun. 

I have no idea why she would want to be home with a husband who accepts her to do this. She would much rather be with Alpha men who are strong and aggressive.

I think you are pulling our legs because no man would be that whooped and put up with this without having some fetish and encouraging it.

There are more serious issues than this!!! OMG.


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## Entropy3000

So let me rephrase this. 

These type of GNOs just might very well be a symptom of some very serious problems. A healthy marriage would not have this type of drama. This activity in and of itself can cause major problems as well. It is going to exascerbate existing problems. So men who are too weak and just accept their fate are just enabling girls behaving badly.


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## Sad_Man

take reading lessons. She doesnt do clubs and dancing. I never said that. She does dinner with her sister, mother and best friend after working out and sweaty from the gym. Sometimes she goes to bars for things like bachelorette parties or after a show. she's an adult no need to treat her like a child. I have trust. Guess its a strange and unfamiliar concept to you?

edit: to me its more about time she's not here. Not that she's going to cheat. And as I said theres other issues taking priority over this.


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## Entropy3000

Sad_Man said:


> take reading lessons. She doesnt do clubs and dancing. I never said that. She does dinner with her sister, mother and best friend after working out and sweaty from the gym. Sometimes she goes to bars for things like bachelorette parties or after a show. she's an adult no need to treat her like a child. I have trust. Guess its a strange and unfamiliar concept to you?
> 
> edit: to me its more about time she's not here. Not that she's going to cheat. And as I said theres other issues taking priority over this.


Funny guy, "Sad Man". Look I don't have the problems in my marriage that you do so don't be so quick to be critical. My wife spends time with me. I trust my wife to not put her self out there. She does not behave this way. I would not accept it. That said, I am not keeping her from doing it. I don;t have to. She is smart enough to know this is dumb behavior and has too much respect for herself, me and the marriage.

BUT, you make a valid point that women who continuously spend time away from their husband have issues. Not the focus of the GNO discussion.

Any husband who is comfortable trusting his wife to play just the tip in these scenarios is playing with fire. It is exceedingly naive to trust any wife to this extreme. 

The fact that the wife wants to go play with other men with judgement impairing alcohol, flirt, dance, have physical contact in a seductive environment, with men who are trying to bed her is foolish at the least. It is not smart. I do not care how much trust one has in the other. *The fact that the wife wants to pursue this is the biggest red flag of all.* Sorry but women are wired physically to seek out the best male possible at the time. Just as men are wired to seek out many partners. So by all means lets put our wives in this type of meat market of sexual competition so they can seek out the Alpha male of the group and so that the pack of males can hit on her.

It is about dopamine and oxytocin. It is one thing to trust women when they are lucid, but add in all the rest and only a very weak man would be willing to allow this. Now add any and I mean any marriage struggle to this. The kicker here is that ALL marriages have struggles from time to time. It only takes one guy at these GNOs and one weak moment to start the fire that turns into the EA let alone the PA. Over time the woman looks forward to these escapades with more and more intensity. They get their dopamine from this. This is basically allowing your wife to date.

Men are wired to have that gut feeling that we keep calling jealously. Hello!!! That is supposed to be there to ****block. Men want to keep their wives from being impregnated by other men. 

The excitement that some men feel about their wives in these scenarios AFTER they come home is part of the mechanism where men will endeavor to have sex with their wives to initiate sperm competition. Meaning, deep down he feels she may becarrying another mans sperm, so he must protect her from this by having sex with her. This is the basis of cuckholding. Why these deviant men enjoy their wives playing with other men. It turns them on. Yuck. A perversion of the jealous reflex denied. So when folks say, hey, she comes home to you and you get laid this is part of it. Frankly if my wife has to get felt up by other men to have sex with me I don't want it. That is just me.

How many of these threads strart with "I trust my wife completely and I have total trust in her. She would never lie to me or cheat on me. She is the mother of my children. We have been married ten years." Most of the threads here from the men's perspective involve men who at least appear to love thier wives so much that they let them walk all over them and their wives are in affairs. Yes a skewed sample. BUT, if someone is reading this, they just might be in that sample.

What makes me think I can post on this. Idunno. Maybe I have Gonads 2.0 marriage addition upgraded from Gonads 1.2.


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## alphaomega

All this is moot.. Stay. go. Controlling, not controlling.....

Telling your wife not to go out isn't about gonads, IMO. 

Do we all go out and kill people? Do we all go out and rob places? Do we also do these things just because we are drunk and use that as an excuse? No. Why? Because punishment is guaranteed. 

If your wife knows that the slightest inclination that you get or hear about her hitting on, flirting, kissing, or going home with....another guy is a deal breaker to you, and that you will absolutely guarantee that the marriage will be over...I'm pretty sure she won't ever do these behaviors. Why? Because this is a boundary of yours you will not tolerate under any circumstances and punishment is guaranteed by ending your marriage. No matter how drunk she is, she will always remember this LAW of the marriage if your guaranteed to enforce it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

alphaomega said:


> All this is moot.. Stay. go. Controlling, not controlling.....
> 
> *Telling your wife not to go out isn't about gonads, IMO. *
> 
> Do we all go out and kill people? Do we all go out and rob places? Do we also do these things just because we are drunk and use that as an excuse? No. Why? Because punishment is guaranteed.
> 
> If your wife knows that the slightest inclination that you get or hear about her hitting on, flirting, kissing, or going home with....another guy is a deal breaker to you, and that you will absolutely guarantee that the marriage will be over...I'm pretty sure she won't ever do these behaviors. Why? Because this is a boundary of yours you will not tolerate under any circumstances and punishment is guaranteed by ending your marriage. No matter how drunk she is, she will always remember this LAW of the marriage if your guaranteed to enforce it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It takes nads to take that stance you are talking about. Few seem to have them. A woman who is truly aware that these activities could lead to a deal breaker will avoid putting herself in that circumstance altogether rather than risk it.

Anyway, you and I agree that there needs to be a boundary where it is a deal breaker to go further.


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## Entropy3000

MrK said:


> Although I've got some history of being burned while previous girlfriends/wife were on GNO's, Including a short-lived post partum clubbing party spree my current wife went out on a long time ago, I'm actually good with my wife going out. Movies with friends. Lunch. Coffee. Shopping. She even goes away on weekends with friends once or twice a year. Just this past Saturday night, she went out with a group of friends: wine in one of their kitchens before a movie, late dinner afterwards. Home by 11:30. No problem.
> 
> However, there are these "innocent" nights out, and there are these:
> 
> Nightclubs - My pet peeve. It's what brought me here originally. I have done enough research on this and other forums to know that a clubbing wife/girlfriend is bad. I don't even want to debate that here. These are meat markets. PERIOD. The girls are looking to flirt with and party (or worse) with the boys. You DO have a right to stop it. It's not just innocent fun. Even in the RARE instance where the intent is fully innocent, a "drunken mistake" can easily happen and regularly does. These places are called meat markets for a reason and they exist for people to hook-up. So, if you're really burning to ream me for my controlling behavior and jealousy, there's this:
> 
> Parties, concerts, sporting event tailgates, karaoke bars... - Anywhere there's drinking, partying, and groups of men hitting on groups of women. If a woman (my wife) who has some (albeit minor) history of partying with the boys when there's a party around, suddenly gets invited to "an event" by a few school moms I don't really know. An event that will consist of tailgating in the parking lot and a party that continues once they go inside. They drink (she was sick the entire next day). They meet people. Party with them. And when my wife got home, the old "coming home from the meat markets at 2:30" vibe started hitting me immediately. She was secretive and vague about what was supposed to have been a big night for her (she goes to lunch with a friend and will talk to me about it for an hour). And while talking about it with her the next day (she HAD TO talk our daughter) there was an obvious lie thrown in and details remained vague.
> 
> It has been quite a few years since the clubbing spree, and this was an individual instance (a friend just happened to have an extra ticket), so I'm not gearing up for a "you can't go out" battle. She'd never been out with these gals, and when the party started, she may have discovered she was in the middle of exactly what she was doing during that long ago party spree and freaked about how she was going to explain it to me (the event was a big deal, so she knew she was going to have to tell us about it). It may have been an inappropriate party but maybe she wasn't ready for it. I don't know.
> 
> But what happens if she tells me this group is going to (I'm making this up) one of their cousin's polo team's final game and end of year bash, and they want to know if she can come-with? It's a big deal. Hundreds of people. Lots of drinking and partying...
> 
> I am OK forbidding her from going clubbing. She lost clubbing rights a few years ago. But how can I tell her she can't go to concerts and or other parties/events with these gals? How controlling is it to prevent her from going to that concert she wants to go to? Or the big annual steeplechase about an hours drive away is happening and it was PURE LUCK that they were able to score tickets. Great opportunity. Or the girls want to go to the big annual college football game because they all went to the same local school. Complete with full tailgate party in the parking lot before hand. Lot's of booze, people, men looking for action...
> 
> I am sure partying with the boys was a big part of last weekend's festivities (the big event, not the movie). Is it always? Can a group of girls who have shown a proclivity to drink and attract men be trusted at these? Isn't it all but GUARANTEED that flirting and partying with strange men will be on the agenda? Just part of what they do when they go out? Even IF the intentions are wholesome, is it even possible for the gals to continue to do this without making some inappropriate, if temporary, new male friends/acquaintances that the husband will never hear about?
> 
> I need to know. We men are confused. We can't even imagine being somewhere that gangs of women would want to screw us and we would do anything but acquiesce. How can we handle it? Is it even a bad thing that they do this?


Sorry for hijacking your thread. Your original thoughts were related to these other type of outings that have some of the same trappings of a clubbing GNO. I agree, that essentially they can be the same thing. They can also be innocent.

I suggest that if they can come up with one ticket, they can come up with two. You go with her. Otherwise it is pretty much contrived. Sure sometimes with sporting events only one ticket is available. What I am saying is that if that is the case she should pass on it. *The secrecy involved with her last otuing is a bit strange and the most disconcerting. *

But I am hearing that these are just alternative GNOs so you are not part of them. Understood. In theory these events can be innocent, with the right friends. But they can also be ways of hiding other activities as you imagine. I don't know the history and why you banned her from clubbing. Did she end up cheating? That matters I think. If she ended up cheating then you have reason to be concerned about these gray areas.
One does have to look at each event on its own but you have some specific concerns so you should address them with her.

Does she have a problem with alcohol? So you feel she still seeks out this type of activity with other men. Have you talked to her about your concerns with these new events? It seems you have but she is avoiding the discussion. I would probably want to get to the bottom of this with her sooner than later.
If she was still seeking attention from other men I would have to reconsider my marriage period. I know. Easy for me to say.

update: ok I remember your situation again. I would be concerned in your case as well.


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## CH

Sad_Man said:


> take reading lessons. She doesnt do clubs and dancing. I never said that. She does dinner with her sister, mother and best friend after working out and sweaty from the gym. Sometimes she goes to bars for things like bachelorette parties or after a show. she's an adult no need to treat her like a child. I have trust. Guess its a strange and unfamiliar concept to you?
> 
> edit: to me its more about time she's not here. Not that she's going to cheat. And as I said theres other issues taking priority over this.


One of my friends married the sweetest, nicest, shyest girl in the entire world. She was perfect, everyone was like wow you actually got her.

She finally found herself and became more outgoing. She found herself so much that she had 3 separate affairs and nobody was aware of it until she left with one of the guys.

The general reaction from everyone was, "She did what? Cheated on him and then left with some other guy, that can't be right."

Nobody ever saw it coming from her. Not saying your wife would do it but if she's not spending time with you, there's a reason she wants to be away from you as much as possible.

Unless you've got the plague there's no reason she can't do some of that stuff with you. Date nights!! Or maybe she doesn't have anytime for you her husband?

BTW this topic was beat to death in the ladies section and almost all guys said GNO at clubs was a no/no and the majority of women said GNO at a club was no big deal and guys were too controlling.


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## Entropy3000

<rant>
I remember pulling out for my final cruise when I was in the Navy. I had a couple of cruises under my belt. My wife was pregnant. I did get to rotate off of sea duty just prior to my daughter being born. 

Anyway, there were a couple guys in my shop that this was their first cruise. Both married with a couple of kids each. They had married their high school sweet hearts. Their wives had become close friends. Lovely ladies really. Very sweet and innocent. Certainly nice to look at. They were not drinkers or party girls. Their hubbys were definitely faithful nice guys.

So our wives saw us off at peir 12. Not a fun time. BUT, due to the tide or what not, we did not pull out on schedule. It was delayed two days. So I called my wife and she came and picked me up. We dropped these other guys home as well.
It was late in the evening when we got to their apartments in base housing.

Their apartments were dark. They checked with their neghbor and both their kids were there. The lady who lived there seemed strangley animated and really beside herself. My wife and I went on home. What I found out later was that the sweet little wives had decided to go out clubbing and drinking the very first night of thier hubbys cruise. I don;t know the real name of the club but it was referred to as the body exchange. Essentially they were not going to let thier husbands absence deter thier fun and sexual escapades. They each went for a Bigger, Better, Deal, BBD at their first opportunity.

It was painful for me during the cruise as they would come to me to help them interpret the mail they were getting from their wives. Not uncommon BTW for less experinced sailors to confide in others. Call it mentoring. It was much like this forum. A lot of BS coming from the wives about needing some fun ... Essentially the wives partied on for months living on their husbands benefits and needless to say these guys had to grow up fast and divorce them. They were nice guys. Loved thier wives and adored their children. They even stayed faithful. Go figure. Chumps I guess. I respected them. 

I of course saw the other side of activities from other sailors who partied over seas like they were single. So this is not women bashing. Just all around sad from both genders. Men and women behaving badly.

When I was a younger sailor and before I was married I had plenty of married women hitting on me in clubs. Really. I guess I had game back then before I knew what game was. Talking mostly europe here. Women on vacation. Had more than one husband who wanted me to "date" their wives. Some of the posters here remind me of them quite frankly. UFB. And no. Too creepy for me.

Had fun with some party girls but essentially I was looking for a woman of substance. I eventually got lucky. I did not find her in bar.

I only post this because it probably shows some insight on why I am pretty discusted with girls ( or guys ) behaving badly. My personal makeup makes me notice the carnage that it does to others. I hate to see folks treat people who really care about them badly and yet turn their bodies and souls over to @$$holes and skanks. I am human so I understand we are not perfect. But I have made my share of mistakes for sure so I understand somewhat.
It just kills me though when folks play the trust card in these situations. It is very naive to think that even the strongest of us cannot be seduced when we are vulnerable. It usually takes a fall to realize that.

Ladies, I know many of you don't care but when you just disregard your husbands concerns about these meat market GNOs and rationalize it all away, the message you send to the person who cares about you the most in the world is that you value your urges to go after that BBD over them. Not about trust. It is about respect and yes love. I do hope it works out for your marriages, I really do.

<rant/>


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## alphaomega

Yes. It's sad.

I had a Friend whose wife had money as one of her five needs. No big deal. Some girls need that. So, manning up, he started his own business. Took a lot of his time. But his wife didn't like that so she went after the first mook who gave her some time. They ended up getting a divorce...he wasn't standing for that crap. Since his business didn't have a lot of equity when they divorced she didn't get much. Now, he's doing quite well for himself. Unfortunately, the WW is my wifes friend, so I still hear about how her ex is an a$$hole because he goes on vacations all the time and found himself a wonderful new woman. I have to bite my tongue when she's over because I feel like slapping her...but of course I would never do that.

Anyways, she's still with her new man, but I refuse to meet him (she's always trying to set up golf games with us. I actually told her I never want to meet him because, well, he's a douche bag for cheating on HIS wife with her).

I have no idea why your story reminded me of this story. Oh yeah! I remember. When it was happening, I told myself how fortunate I was that my wife wasn't like that. Boy, was I ever FKN wrong about that call!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

cheatinghubby said:


> One of my friends married the sweetest, nicest, shyest girl in the entire world. She was perfect, everyone was like wow you actually got her.
> 
> She finally found herself and became more outgoing. She found herself so much that she had 3 separate affairs and nobody was aware of it until she left with one of the guys.
> 
> The general reaction from everyone was, "She did what? Cheated on him and then left with some other guy, that can't be right."
> 
> Nobody ever saw it coming from her. Not saying your wife would do it but if she's not spending time with you, there's a reason she wants to be away from you as much as possible.
> 
> Unless you've got the plague there's no reason she can't do some of that stuff with you. Date nights!! Or maybe she doesn't have anytime for you her husband?
> 
> BTW this topic was beat to death in the ladies section and almost all guys said GNO at clubs was a no/no and the majority of women said GNO at a club was no big deal and guys were too controlling.


My H and I mutually decided that we would not go clubbing without each other. Neither really like dancing so we never go. No loss. If he went and didn't want me to go or vice versa, total double standard. But we actually have very strict 'guidelines' of acceptable behaviour and activities. We're very suited to each other that way as it doesn't feel like we are missing out. That said, we aren't joined at the hip. I do have girls nights out at a restaurant, coffee shop etc. And he golfs or goes to hockey games. We are do stuff together like golf, walks and things with kids...
I think you need to find someone who feels same way you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

alphaomega said:


> Yes. It's sad.
> 
> I had a Friend whose wife had money as one of her five needs. No big deal. Some girls need that. So, manning up, he started his own business. Took a lot of his time. But his wife didn't like that so she went after the first mook who gave her some time. They ended up getting a divorce...he wasn't standing for that crap. Since his business didn't have a lot of equity when they divorced she didn't get much. Now, he's doing quite well for himself. Unfortunately, the WW is my wifes friend, so I still hear about how her ex is an a$$hole because he goes on vacations all the time and found himself a wonderful new woman. I have to bite my tongue when she's over because I feel like slapping her...but of course I would never do that.
> 
> Anyways, she's still with her new man, but I refuse to meet him (she's always trying to set up golf games with us. I actually told her I never want to meet him because, well, he's a douche bag for cheating on HIS wife with her).
> 
> I have no idea why your story reminded me of this story. Oh yeah! I remember. When it was happening, I told myself how fortunate I was that my wife wasn't like that. Boy, was I ever FKN wrong about that call!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sobering.


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## Entropy3000

golfergirl said:


> My H and I mutually decided that we would not go clubbing without each other. Neither really like dancing so we never go. No loss. If he went and didn't want me to go or vice versa, total double standard. But we actually have very strict 'guidelines' of acceptable behaviour and activities. We're very suited to each other that way as it doesn't feel like we are missing out. That said, we aren't joined at the hip. I do have girls nights out at a restaurant, coffee shop etc. And he golfs or goes to hockey games. We are do stuff together like golf, walks and things with kids...
> I think you need to find someone who feels same way you do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is probably the best take away. Marrying someone with compatible values. You can still be your own person while being a partner. :smthumbup:


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## MrK

Entropy3000 said:


> Their apartments were dark. They checked with their neighbor and both their kids were there. The lady who lived there seemed strangely animated and really beside herself. My wife and I went on home. What I found out later was that the sweet little wives had decided to go out clubbing and drinking the very first night of their hubby's cruise. I don't know the real name of the club but it was referred to as the body exchange. Essentially they were not going to let their husbands absence deter their fun and sexual escapades. They each went for a Bigger, Better, Deal, BBD at their first opportunity.


Thanks for the debate folks. I have been following it. Sorry it's taken me so long to get back, but my work computers have new filters that are hitting TAM and it's hard to get time on the home PC.

I do believe that there are some women that can go to these places purely to dance/talk with each other, and not to flirt and party with strange men, basking in all of the male attention. I'm sure they and their husbands know who they are, that there is full disclosure on the way out the door, discussions of the evening when they get home, and a little checking in while out. I'm sure groundrules are agreed to and safe driving is discussed. And I'm SURE the dangers of drinking in an atmosphere populated by a large number of drunk male predators who EXPECT to get laid is discussed as well as how to handle themselves.

Like the ladies described in that quote by Entropy, and like the wives of all of the "control freaks" who responded to this thread, my wife didn't do any of that. My wife was secretive. My wife never told me where she went or who she met. Who bought her drinks, who she danced with, whether or not they got into strangers cars and went clubhopping. Nothing. I think most GNO's to clubs are handled that way. I nearly lost my wife to a predator because I didn't want to be controlling or jealous. Any question beyond "did you have fun" would, very skillfully, be handled in such a way that I was turned into a paranoid control freak. I am like most husband in this situation. I wanted to show that I could handle my wife having a little fun. Now, here I am dealing with it years later.

In those years since, she has not gone clubbing at all. It was short lived. She now goes out with friends as do I. She goes to dinner and movies and some local folk concerts with friends. She always tells me about it and I have no problems with where she goes. I'm actually quite secure on her nights out, considering what we'd gone through.

Now, if three young, attractive, school moms with strong personalities asked her to go nightclubbing some night, it would have been a hard decision. A decision, nonetheless, that probably would have been a "no". As a matter of fact, I don't think she would have even considered it. But a concert? Again, who would have a problem that? I had to acquiesce. Leading up to the event, there was full disclosure and communication. She was excited about the concert and a night out. I actually had no problem with it. Once she got home, however....

For someone with past (albeit short lived) hankerings to party and flirt with the boys, I think she found out that this was going to be an unexpected night of clubbing. A 50,000 seat meat market with a three hour party in the parking lot beforehand. They drank. They flirted, they partied. And once she saw that she was doing all that I had a problem with so many years ago, she knew she'd have a problem talking to me about it so she shut down when she got home. That secretiveness, elusiveness, and even a little lie or two gave the whole night the "home from the meat markets at 3AM" vibe I used to get. I thought this part of her life was over. When it hit again, I panicked a little and started this thread. It had been years since my wife partied with the boys. It brought home bad memories.

I don't expect this to be a problem. I think it was like a reformed gambling addict that was unexpectedly dumped in a casino for a gambling bender for one night. She's not necessarily going to go back, (it was just a one-time fluke, after-all) but if she wanted to she could. Because (in this hypothetical example) this wasn't a "Casino" per say. Just a makeshift room filled up with gaming tables, not a casino. And there are similar ones all over the area.

So yes, Entropy. I am asking about "alternative meat markets" and how boundaries are defined in them. I mentioned a few in a previous post. I'll add another. I think it was this forum where a husband posted of a similar problem with his wife partying with the boys from work at clubs when their late shift was over. One "compromise" the wife offered, and he was ready to accept, was that the partying would be at gay clubs instead of straight clubs. Well, since this is my issue, I devoted about 20 minutes to Google searches of "straight chicks at gay clubs". It took me 20 minutes to realize that the parties were a LOT more fun for straight girls at gay clubs and they had just as much of a chance, if not better, to get laid there than a straight club. If I could find that out in 20 minutes, I'm guessing the party girl already knew that and was ready to go. In essence lying to him to continue her fun.

Any event that has a meat market feel to it has to be handled very carefully. The tailgate party before a football game. Imagine that carload of babes drinking just a few cars down. Big rock concerts. If there is drinking, socializing, and your wife is there with a group of women, there will be men hitting on them. How will they react? I meet people all the time at such events. ALWAYS men. If I were flirting and partying with the girls all night, my wife wouldn't like it. And with me, there is less of a chance that these girls I (don't) talk to would want to bang me than there is with the guys my wife parties with wanting into her panties. So why allow it to happen?

This is the longest post I have ever written on a chat forum. And I didn't even concentrate on what could happen if, even in the STRONGEST of marriages, the meat market atmosphere takes over and that good wife makes a huge "drunken mistake". These places exist for a reason and they don't call them meat markets for nothing. And alternatives abound.


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## newwife07

I've been out to bars plenty of times without my husband, mostly when he's out of town and doing the same himself. I like the occasional flirt, but after a night it gets old and I head off to bed--alone and without numbers or names! I'd never talk to a random guy at a bar in front of him, but if I'm out with a bunch of my girlfriends and a guy wants to have an intelligent convo with me (not dancing--ew, no thanks) then of course I will chat!! Might be leading him on, but I'm always kind and it wouldn't be the first time in history that happened 

Sometimes a girl just needs to know she's still got it. I assume my husband needs to know the same, and that he would never cheat on me, and so when he's out of town I don't pester him about what he's doing or who he's with. I know he drinks with friends, and goes to bars--whatever. I let him enjoy it, knowing at the end of the day he'd always rather be with me.

Also, none of my friends are married yet (we're only 23) and they still want to have GNOs and I'm not going to pretend I'm some old fogie just because I'm married. Women need that time--whether there's drinks involved or not--to connect and talk about things they wouldn't with a man around.


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## Entropy3000

"Girls just wanna have fun" -- Cindy Lauper

-------------
_some boys take a beautiful girl
and hide her away from the rest of the world
I wanna be the one to walk in the sun
oh girls they wanna have fun
oh girls just wanna have_
-------------

All I can say is that I learned a lot about women from having two daughters. One was more challenging than the other. It sounds condescending but there is a girl inside every wife. We love that about them and it can be no end of concern.

These GNOs seems eerily important to some women. To where more creative venues pop up that offer the opporuntiy with some plausible denial. There is a pack mentality to it so the support is there.

I did not know about the gay bar deal. It sounded plausible to me.  I might have fallen for that one.

In the clubs it is a bad enough thing but if you add the element of travelling where there is a guy at the wheel and not a sober woman that would concern me. Not just the drunk driving which is a real concern but the whole control issue. Meaning groups of guys and girls club hopping or whatever. The car can go any where. The drunk mom in the back seat with some guy. Yeah, sounds paranoid but stuff happens. A woman would feel so stupid after the fact that she would likely keep it a secret or I guess just flat not know what was happening for that matter. Maybe I am reaching here.

I could see the above happening when guys and girls decide to party after work at the bar and then go bar hopping or proceed to clubbing. Part of PUA 101 is to isolate the woman from the group. So hey lets go get something to eat and we can come back here later can be on the agenda. We combine the work environment which are where many EAs are started with the bar scene. It is one thing for a quick happy hour drink or two and then on your way home, BUT it is also an opprtunity for some shennaigans if one is so inclined. It does not have to start out as the plan, but alcohol loosens folks up. It is when these become late night things that one really has to be concerned. When I go to these things I am used to many of the womens husbands dropping by. Not a bad idea.

In the above I would insist that I get invited along often if not always. Taking my wife home when I go of course.

So for alternative venues when there is a lot of partying I would be concerned about the transportion arrangements as well as the on premises stuff. Chain of custody if you will.

How about something more common these days. Trips to Vegas or Casinos in general where the women stay over night for a few days. Vacations with girl friends. They can be very innocent or not.

Conventions are another one. Business trips. My colleagues are partying people. I have to watch myself. We have to know what are boundsries are and not go blowing by them.


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## Entropy3000

newwife07 said:


> I've been out to bars plenty of times without my husband, *mostly when he's out of town* and doing the same himself. I like the occasional flirt, but after a night it gets old and I head off to bed--alone and without numbers or names! *I'd never talk to a random guy at a bar in front of him, but if I'm out with a bunch of my girlfriends and a guy wants to have an intelligent convo with me (not dancing--ew, no thanks) then of course I will chat!!* Might be leading him on, but I'm always kind and it wouldn't be the first time in history that happened
> 
> *Sometimes a girl just needs to know she's still got it. *I assume my husband needs to know the same, and that he would never cheat on me, and so when he's out of town I don't pester him about what he's doing or who he's with. I know he drinks with friends, and goes to bars--whatever. I let him enjoy it, knowing at the end of the day he'd always rather be with me.
> 
> *Also, none of my friends are married yet (we're only 23) and they still want to have GNOs and I'm not going to pretend I'm some old fogie just because I'm married.* Women need that time--whether there's drinks involved or not--to connect and talk about things they wouldn't with a man around.



Yes your hubby has ample opportunity for shennaigans for sure.
I travel on business as well. The folks I travel with are all married. 
We drink but are not hitting on women. Maybe your hubby does. Idunno.
We go to bars and not clubs of course. Some Guiness.

You would agree there is an added element of danger with hubby out of town. No? Just a little?

Not judging you and I get it, but you just indicated you would have different behavior with your hubby present than if he was there. Yes?

So you go out to GNOs with girls who are not married. Age 23.
Sweet!! 

Do you wear your wedding ring? Loaded question because actually a wedding ring is a target. You will likely get hit on more than others by wearing it, though if they notice you have a tan line an no ring they know you are looking for some action. Some strange.

I admit it is fun and exciting to act single and be out with other single girls flirting with guys.
It is natrual for women to have these urges. They just may not understand or care what drives those urges. They just feel really good.

The fact you avoid dancing is something. I don't have to ask you then if you do the grinding thing.

But what if you really chat with a guy that has some real game?
He is pretty hot, but really you just flat connect with him.

You assume your husband needs to know the same thing. Idunno. Is it the same? Is he chatting up women on his trips? I don't know. Do you? Is he out with single guys or married guys who act single on trips?


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## newwife07

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes your hubby has ample opportunity for shennaigans for sure.
> I travel on business as well. The folks I travel with are all married.
> We drink but are not hitting on women. Maybe your hubby does. Idunno.
> We go to bars and not clubs of course. Some Guiness.
> 
> You would agree there is an added element of danger with hubby out of town. No? Just a little?
> 
> Not judging you and I get it, but you just indicated you would have different behavior with your hubby present than if he was there. Yes?
> 
> So you go out to GNOs with girls who are not married. Age 23.
> Sweet!!
> 
> Do you wear your wedding ring? Loaded question because actually a wedding ring is a target. You will likely get hit on more than others by wearing it, though if they notice you have a tan line an no ring they know you are looking for some action. Some strange.
> 
> I admit it is fun and exciting to act single and be out with other single girls flirting with guys.
> It is natrual for women to have these urges. They just may not understand or care what drives those urges. They just feel really good.
> 
> The fact you avoid dancing is something. I don't have to ask you then if you do the grinding thing.
> 
> But what if you really chat with a guy that has some real game?
> He is pretty hot, but really you just flat connect with him.
> 
> You assume your husband needs to know the same thing. Idunno. Is it the same? Is he chatting up women on his trips? I don't know. Do you? Is he out with single guys or married guys who act single on trips?


I don't see a big problem with acting different when my hubby is around. I have male friends that I focus on more intently (in conversation) when he's not there, just because I don't want hubby to feel bad (do I want to watch him engrossed in convo with a pretty woman? no. Does he probably do that sometimes when I'm not around? yes, and that's fine). 

I don't have sexual feelings for any of those guys, but I recognize hubby could get the wrong idea if he saw me deeply involved in a convo with another man.

I always wear my wedding ring and the guys in Austin actually see it as a turn OFF  I was waiting at a bus stop after a night at the bars and these 2 drunk guys started to chat me up (and I distractedly replied to them, just to pass the time and because I was a bit vulnerable there all alone) but once I flashed the ring they were like, Whoa! Never mind! 

I know lots of people (especially women in my hubby's home country of Argentina) see a wedding ring as a turn on, but those people are just the most pathetic excuses for adults I've ever seen. If I think a guy is hitting on me because of that, I'll usually end the convo right then and there, because: ICK! Low self-esteem, probably shady alert! 

And is it too naive to think that sometimes a guy at a bar MIGHT *just* want to have a good convo with me?? (Probably is) Even if he doesn't *just* want that, and we end up having a good convo and calling it a night, no numbers or names or facebook followups, what's the big deal? Should my hubby be the only man in my life that I ever have a meaningful convo with? He and I both have lots of interests, not all of them the same, so should I only ever be able to talk about his interests, with him?

I'm a bit a nerd so the guys with my kind of "game" I'm more likely to find on a school campus, not out in a bar. And generally, if I sense that a guy at a bar doesn't really want to have a convo and is just out for tail, I won't have anything to talk to him about anyway. If, on the other hand, I meet a guy who's a physicist and can tell me a lot about some interesting research he's doing (I'm not kidding!) then I will definitely spend the evening chatting and leave by thanking him for the good convo, before heading to bed quite happy that I learned something new and connected with a new person, even considering I will never see or talk to him again.


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## Entropy3000

newwife07 said:


> I don't see a big problem with acting different when my hubby is around. I have male friends that I focus on more intently (in conversation) when he's not there, just because I don't want hubby to feel bad (do I want to watch him engrossed in convo with a pretty woman? no. Does he probably do that sometimes when I'm not around? yes, and that's fine).
> 
> I don't have sexual feelings for any of those guys, but I recognize hubby could get the wrong idea if he saw me deeply involved in a convo with another man.
> 
> I always wear my wedding ring and the guys in Austin actually see it as a turn OFF  I was waiting at a bus stop after a night at the bars and these 2 drunk guys started to chat me up (and I distractedly replied to them, just to pass the time and because I was a bit vulnerable there all alone) but once I flashed the ring they were like, Whoa! Never mind!
> 
> I know lots of people (especially women in my hubby's home country of Argentina) see a wedding ring as a turn on, but those people are just the most pathetic excuses for adults I've ever seen. If I think a guy is hitting on me because of that, I'll usually end the convo right then and there, because: ICK! Low self-esteem, probably shady alert!
> 
> And is it too naive to think that sometimes a guy at a bar MIGHT *just* want to have a good convo with me?? Even if he doesn't *just* want that, and we end up having a good convo and calling it a night, no numbers or names or facebook followups, what's the big deal? Should my hubby be the only man in my life that I ever have a meaningful convo with? He and I both have lots of interests, not all of them the same, so should I only ever be able to talk about his interests, with him?
> 
> I'm a bit a nerd so the guys with my kind of "game" I'm more likely to find on a school campus, not out in a bar. And generally, if I sense that a guy at a bar doesn't really want to have a convo and is just out for tail, I won't have anything to talk to him about anyway. If, on the other hand, I meet a guy who's a physicist and can tell me a lot about some interesting research he's doing (I'm not kidding!) then I will definitely spend the evening chatting and leave by thanking him for the good convo, before heading to bed quite happy that I learned something new and connected with a new person, even considering I will never see or talk to him again.


What is the approximate value of e? Don't tease me.

Austin is a great town. One of my favorites. I am a nerd for sure. Actually it is nerds who use this Game becasue they have to. 

I am pretty safe in bars ... generally. I should add I don't go to bars unless my wife is with me or I am on company business. I know my limits but I love a good conversation with an intelligent woman. I am not going to start up a conversation with a stranger. It would more likely be with a colleague. The danger is not the "sexual" attraction per se. It is the emotional attraction that is most dangerous for me. I have to be concerned because rather than the alcohol making her look more attractive the conversation can do the same thing. So I have to watch my boundaries carefully and be brutally honest with myself. My friends know me and I have told them to watch my back. I guess that makes me weak but to assume one can not be seduced is folly. We all have our kryptonite.

I think you are doing a lot more flirting in your situation to balance out the flirting your hubby is doing. You are playing with fire for sure.


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## Entropy3000

Not too sure how accurate this is but per Men's Health:

She cheated: 32%
She's loyal: 68%

So all those men who are trusting. Hmmmm. Maybe only 2/3 of men trust their wives and and their wives are the 68% who have been loyal.


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## MrK

newwife07 said:


> I've been out to bars plenty of times without my husband, mostly when he's out of town and doing the same himself. I like the occasional flirt, but after a night it gets old and I head off to bed--alone and without numbers or names! I'd never talk to a random guy at a bar in front of him, but if I'm out with a bunch of my girlfriends and a guy wants to have an intelligent convo with me (not dancing--ew, no thanks) then of course I will chat!! Might be leading him on, but I'm always kind and it wouldn't be the first time in history that happened
> 
> Sometimes a girl just needs to know she's still got it. I assume my husband needs to know the same, and that he would never cheat on me, and so when he's out of town I don't pester him about what he's doing or who he's with. I know he drinks with friends, and goes to bars--whatever. I let him enjoy it, knowing at the end of the day he'd always rather be with me.
> 
> Also, none of my friends are married yet (we're only 23) and they still want to have GNOs and I'm not going to pretend I'm some old fogie just because I'm married. Women need that time--whether there's drinks involved or not--to connect and talk about things they wouldn't with a man around.



I'm glad you're both comfortable with clubbing without each other. But I'll tell you, from what I've studied over two years on these forums, you are both playing with fire. The odds that both of you spends as much time in these environments as you say you do and nothing inappropriate has gone on is pretty small. Congratulations for keeping it clean. But even IF both of you haven't done anything inappropriate, the odds are that it WILL happen. 

You KNOW your husband doesn't chat up the girls? You've NEVER taken your flirting to a level that he would have SERIOUS problems with if he knew? I find that almost impossible to believe. And as the years go on it is almost guaranteed one of you will make a friendship or act in a way that you wish you hadn't. 

It just doesn't compute, from all I've read, that your marriage can be as strong as you like to think it is if you each spend as much time in environments known for hook-ups as you do. I'm not sure you're being totally honest here. I'm also think yo may be a little naive about what your husband does when he's out.

You guys both have, as a common interest, drinking at bars and meeting people but you don't do it together? Hmmm....


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## Entropy3000

I checked some of her other posts to get some insight... hope thats not creepy. And indeed the hubby seems to be a heck of a flirt. Some of her actions may be in response to his behavior.

Not picking on her, just pointing out that she is indeed dealing with issues and what she sees as her own jealousy. She may very well have reason to be jealous. Hubby invited a girl friend along on a vacation that the wife is paying for. She iinvited a girl friend of hers. So this dude is going on vaction with three hotties. I can't figure out why they just don't go together by themselves. Why does there need to be others? I think this is related to this bar socializing thing.

Lotsa danger here. She may instinctively be seeking out her options without a conscious thought to it.


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## Entropy3000

Just saw this from yesterday:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/27303-wife-10-years-kissed-stranger.html

Wife kissed a stranger in a nightclub.

Why?

" he spun me a line and made me feel wanted." --- Gamed her

Husband -- 100% trusted her.


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## Runs like Dog

A friend of mine was in the army way back and he wanted to be in the Airborne MP. One of the things he had to do was qualify on a series of different weapons. They have him a 1911 .45 and told him to study the 6 safeties on it. When it came time to qualify he forgot one and blurted out "You!, you're the safety, you should know what you're doing!"

Fail!

But the lesson is that if your wife is going to go out and randomly copulate in the alley with strange men, come home half in the bag with her underwear inside out or missing, that kind of thing is eventually going to come out one way or another. The fact that she GyNOs is neither here nor there. Character is what you ARE not what you do.


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> A friend of mine was in the army way back and he wanted to be in the Airborne MP. One of the things he had to do was qualify on a series of different weapons. They have him a 1911 .45 and told him to study the 6 safeties on it. When it came time to qualify he forgot one and blurted out "You!, you're the safety, you should know what you're doing!"
> 
> Fail!
> 
> But the lesson is that if your wife is going to go out and randomly copulate in the alley with strange men, come home half in the bag with her underwear inside out or missing, that kind of thing is eventually going to come out one way or another. The fact that she GyNOs is neither here nor there. Character is what you ARE not what you do.


If one has character and are truly trustworthy they will not put themselves into these circumstances. So she has already broken her trust by being there. I still think men send the wrong single by accepting this behavior.


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## Entropy3000

Another:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/27384-wife-hanging-out-younger-friends.html#post355830

Wife 39 going to a rodeo and then dancing at a bar with her single girlfriend and her BF. They are in their late 20s.

Oh yeah hubby is at work and he is being controlling because he does not see this as appropriate.


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## Runs like Dog

Yeah I dont see that. Just because he says no for not much of a reason and she hasn't given an actual material reason for him to suspect her I don't see the real issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> Yeah I dont see that. Just because he says no for not much of a reason and she hasn't given an actual material reason for him to suspect her I don't see the real issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


FWIW and according to this guy she would not be comfortable with the reverse situation. So ok for her but not him.


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## Latigo

What is it about the word "controlling" that makes men cower so much?! I would like to understand b/c I didn't want to be called that myself the first 4-5 years of my marriage. Now I don't care. Imo, my wife has no business having long convos with other men. Or being in an environment where there are many men and alcohol. But, that's just me and mine. I think everyone's relationship is different.


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## B329FA

The guy

the problem with your thinking about couples nights out is simple. Everyone needs space every now and then. A good example is my wife and I we love going out to dinner and things like that but she likes to dance and I don't. Reason being is that I truly can not dance. Up until recently I trusted her to go out dancing without me. All I can say is if you trust her it doesnt hurt to have a GNO every now and then allows for a BNO also.


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## Runs like Dog

Entropy3000 said:


> FWIW and according to this guy she would not be comfortable with the reverse situation. So ok for her but not him.


Fair enough but all of this is about vague suspicions not reality.


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## MrK

B329FA said:


> Up until recently I trusted her to go out dancing without me.


Please explain this line in a paragraph that is supposed to sell me on the fact that I should trust my wife. I'm supposed to let her w.h.o.r.e around at meat markets until 3AM until I actually have a PICTURE of her with a guys toungue down her throat?

:scratchhead:


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> Fair enough but all of this is about vague suspicions not reality.


Well it is a thread of its own. She is 39, been back to work for a year and hanging out with a bunch of very young single folks. He seems ok with that depending on the activities and venue. He is drawing the line at her going out with them dancing at the bar while he is at work. He would not mind going along with her when he is not working. 

I do agree there is not much information provided. I guess I would say this situation would at least draw my intention and I would want to know more. I would probably insist on going along with them and get a feel for things at the very least. Basically he is seeing an interest for her to start going out to bars and dancing during times he is unable to go. 39 is a very significant number for many women.


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## Entropy3000

B329FA said:


> The guy
> 
> the problem with your thinking about couples nights out is simple. Everyone needs space every now and then. A good example is my wife and I we love going out to dinner and things like that but she likes to dance and I don't. Reason being is that I truly can not dance. *Up until recently I trusted her to go out dancing without me. * All I can say is if you trust her it doesnt hurt to have a GNO every now and then allows for a BNO also.


What does BNO entail? Are we talking about dancing, strip clubs and / or lap dances? Just trying to see what your boundaries are for yourself. I do believe that boundaries cannot be one sided.

You choose not to learn to dance for your wife so then since she likes to dance you are ok with her dancing with other men, in bars. Personally I trust my wife not to put herself in these situations. If she wanted to dance I would dance. 

Trust is fine and dandy. BUT, given some vague statistic that 32% of women have cheated and all these threads where the men say they trusted their wife 100%, I would say that trust is a tad over rated. Just my opinion. And that is just it. IF the hubby understands the risks and is ok with this, then you get what you get. Roll the dice.

Now you say "Up until recently ...." Did something happen?

I think GNOs are essential. Do they have to be to go play with the boys who are trying to score, with alcohol, flirting and dancing? No doubt women love this and are indeed wired for the attention and to seek out the next level up male.


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## Entropy3000

Latigo said:


> *What is it about the word "controlling" *that makes men cower so much?! I would like to understand b/c I didn't want to be called that myself the first 4-5 years of my marriage. Now I don't care. Imo, my wife has no business having long convos with other men. Or being in an environment where there are many men and alcohol. But, that's just me and mine. I think everyone's relationship is different.


I totally agree. I see a man who is not comfortable with his wife doing this stuff, yet gives in because he is called controlling as a very weak man indeed. That weakness is seen by his wife and is not attractive making the men she spends time with more desireable and exascerbates the issue.

Men are also said to be insecure. So their manhood is questioned. The reality is that men are hardwired to keep their mate from being imprgnated by other males. So the gut feeling that men get about this stuff is related to that. Sure at other than the cave man level we want to protect our family period. Also another reality. I don't care if you are the number one stud on the block. I don't care if you are David Beckham. When your wife wants the fantasy of getting away from the drudge of her marriage responsibilities to get some space, she may love you but you have all the ****** in you armor that you would have from a long term relationship. You have to meet her needs. Fine. You have invested your life in her. The guy(s) she meets has nothing invested. He just has game. He only has to meet or appear to meet one of more of her needs for a brief moment in time. This while she is drinking, maybe ovulating, in a sexy atmosphere and being hit on by a guy who just wants in her pants. Some people refer to this as women waniting to get some strange. Something different. Maybe not better. Just exciting and new. I think a secure man sees an issue here and is secure enough to stand up for what he thinks are appropriate boundaries.

I see guys who are ok with all this stuff, as being either incredibly naive, have their head in the sand, or who have checked out of their relationship anyway. Or and I do not want to leave them out, those men who enjoy the idea of their wife with other men.


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## Entropy3000

Entropy3000 said:


> Just saw this from yesterday:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/27303-wife-10-years-kissed-stranger.html
> 
> Wife kissed a stranger in a nightclub.
> 
> Why?
> 
> " he spun me a line and made me feel wanted." --- Gamed her
> 
> Husband -- 100% trusted her.


So this thread has turned out so far to have been a setup. The wife had been chatting for two years of Facebook connection with an old high school boy friend. They arranged to meet at the club. They left together. Her friends did not have her back. Who knows maybe a "you go girl" thing. They just said they were too drunk to notice. So out with friends can be a very false sense of a boundary. Surely it varies ....

So this GNO was a planned rendezvous.


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## Runs like Dog

That's kind of my point. You have to trust people until they give you a reason not to in which case you were going to get shafted all along, anyway.


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> That's kind of my point. You have to trust people until they give you a reason not to in which case you were going to get shafted all along, anyway.


If your SO is putting themselves in these borderline cheating scenarios and is seeking out the attention of the opposite sex with flirting, drinking and dancing, there is already trust broken.
Would you not trust them to avoid these situations. I trust my wife not to do this stuff. She doesn't. 

It is playing just the tip. There has to be agreed upon boundaries. You absolutley do not have to wait for a total failure to not have blind trust.

Why is it a good idea to trust your wife to do these GNOs? I am not talking about GNOs in general. We are talking about meat market GNOs. Why in the world should you trust a wife who wants to do this to begin with? It is ok for your wife to be continually seduced, groped, and gamed under the influence of alcohol? Now if you are fine with it great. But are you saying a man who is not has no right to find this unacceptable and that he has to wait until he can prove she cheated? I actually find this behavior to be cheating already if the husband is against it. I suppose we can also say it is not cheating until there is full penetration.


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## Runs like Dog

Why? I can only speak for myself. I'm not a baby sitter or the commissioner of chastity belts. If my wife wanted to use the excuse of getting wild with her homegirls to sex up some male stripper or go heels over ears in the back of some dude's car, then the odds are that my wife doesn't need an excuse. She needs an alibi.


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## MrK

Runs like Dog said:


> If my wife wanted to go heels over ears in the back of some dude's car, then the odds are that my wife doesn't need an excuse. She needs an alibi.


You miss the point. THAT is cheating. Infidelity. She would have broken her vows for that. Having men grope you while you'r just out to have fun with the girls is just a little playtime. "Legitimate Infidelity". Flirt. Dance. Party. Talk sexy. Hug and slow dance. That's just blowing off steam. See what I mean? Some wives won't make that decision to cheat. But just a little fun to take the edge off?

Now, if anything happens, it was just a drunken mistake and they're SOOOO sorry. They weren't LOOKING for it. It just happened.


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## MrK

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE?!?!? These places exist so members of the opposite sex can hook-up for casual encounters. WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?


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## Entropy3000

Some folks take the attitude that if she is going to cheat she is going to cheat. I don't think that is the point here. 

It is something women do to just kinda cheat. Just a bit of fun. Naughty fun. Again why I call it just the tip. They try it out and it is fun ... and addictive. They actually fool themselves into thinking it is ok and they can stop at any time. They just don;t want to. The more they do, they more comfortable they become and the more they want. This goes for guys too BTW. It is like falling into an EA. You go girl. It feels fine and right no matter how many boundaries are passed up. Women are wired to find the next level up male. Lots of attention and fun. How could this not be good for her and her uummmm ... what was that thing, ... oh yeah her marriage to whats-his-face. She had forgotten about that during the last dance.

After all, they could have any of these guys if they wanted. It is a real dopamine fix that hubby does not give them ... any more. 
Their current mate is not so exciting. Been there and done that. They are not illicit. They are boring. They are sooo Beta. Women like the variety of the strangers in the candy store. 

After all it was their husbands fault and not theirs as they were fine with letting thier wives do this. If he was man enough he would have stepped in. He must not really care. His weakness is actully not attractive. Then when he does step in, he is controlling and insecure. So she is not to blame here. 

She may decide to let that hand linger a little longer or to dance a little closer. Maybe not pull back from the obvious bulge this guy has where she did the last time out. It's ok. It feels right. She has a little more to drink this time. She met this guy before and he is cute and he really gets her. Other woman were dancing with him so he has been pre-selected. This feels good. Just letting off some steam. She deserves this. She can't get this at home or from hubby so this is all good. Actually hubby has really been neglecting her. Her marriage is really not what she wanted it to be. She is dressing a little more seductively these days at the clubs and it is paying off in more attention. She likes that. She has still got it. Why did she ever stop going to clubs ... oh that thing, that marriage to that guy ... the one who fussed at her this morning. Wow this guy is really nice. I feel good when I am around him. He is so confident!! Gee this drink he brought me is a little strong, but good! I wonder what is in it? He actually is looking out for me. We are going to get some coffee ... and talk. That last drink made me a bit woozy. Oooops, why is my husband calling me? I know it is later than I had planned but I am having fun. I'll just turn the phone off and he will have to stop trying to control me. He is so insecure.
I would never let anyone or anything damage my marriage! Here let me slip these off.


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## Runs like Dog

Whatever - good luck chaining your honey to the ironing board.


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> Whatever - good luck chaining your honey to the ironing board.


My wife does not iron. She does not go out on these type of GNOs. I don't go out to strip clubs and get lap dances. I guess we are both missing out. My wife gets plenty of her own time with friends. They just are not the clubbing, drinking and acting like single partiers that some women appear to be.

So if a woman is not going out drinking and playing with other men, she is chained to an ironing board. Nothing else in life. No in between. Playing with other men or chained to the ironing board. Wow. 

Again, I think the issue is that these women are seeking out this type of entertainment to begin with. That some men feel impotent in dealing with it.

I see this issue as a very telling example of modern marriage, boundaries, attitudes and what folks find acceptable in behavior.

Some men like the idea of their wives playing with other men. Not me.


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## KJ5000

Although she does not always have suspicious nature, my wife respects the the fact that I believe NOTHING GOOD can come out of these so called GNOs.
I don't ask for much in our relationship so she complies as far as this issue is concerned.

IMO if people didn't get married before they were ready OR married someone with the exact same attitude about clubbing, flirting and what is considered appropriate behavior, GNO wouldn't be an issue.


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## Entropy3000

KJ5000 said:


> Although she does not always have suspicious nature, my wife respects the the fact that I believe NOTHING GOOD can come out of these so called GNOs.
> I don't ask for much in our relationship so she complies as far as this issue is concerned.
> 
> IMO if people didn't get married before they were ready OR married someone with the exact same attitude about clubbing, flirting and what is considered appropriate behavior, GNO wouldn't be an issue.


Yup. Good post.

I did not meet my wife in a bar. We have compatible attitudes on this stuff. Affairs can start in other ways and my head is not in the sand though it has been up my butt from time to time. This is not one of those times.

There do seem to be some women who get into stages after having two or three kids or just get into their late 30s who never were interested in this stuff and get drawn in by others. Maybe a MLC thing. They never did this and are now convincing themselves they missed out on something. I think these scenarios are just a symptom that something is missing in the marriage. I suggest that a man who runs into this, just not accept going down that road, but actively work on the marriage which is the root cause of the situation in most cases. We all get lazy and complacent. We take our wives for granted. When we do that we get what we get. We should at least know the warning signs and be willing to act in positive ways before a marriage goes in the wrong direction.


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> Whatever - good luck chaining your honey to the ironing board.


Forgive me if you have already stated this. How do you and your wife handle this? Does she or has been one to do the clubbing thing? Also while I paint a sleazy picture, I know there are shades of gray.

Where do your and your wife set the bondaries on this?


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## Kricket

I don't care how good you say your marriage is and how much you trust your spouse. If one of you is out partying without the other, it will eventually lead to a problem in your relationship. 

More quickly if the partying is done with singles.


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## Runs like Dog

Entropy3000 said:


> Forgive me if you have already stated this. How do you and your wife handle this? Does she or has been one to do the clubbing thing? Also while I paint a sleazy picture, I know there are shades of gray.
> 
> Where do your and your wife set the bondaries on this?


My wife is free to do pretty much whatever she likes on her time. She's rather a homebody it happens though but when she wants to do what she wants to do she does it. She's a big girl she knows the stakes.


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> My wife is free to do pretty much whatever she likes on her time. She's rather a homebody it happens though but when she wants to do what she wants to do she does it. She's a big girl she knows the stakes.


Good for you. If it works. I guess it does since you are still together and presumably have a great relationship.

So she occasionally goes to a GNO at a club and dances with other men or are you saying she does her thing and you don't really know or worry about it.

My wife and I are much the same. She just is not a party girl and never has been. I am just realizing how lucky I have been for that.


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## Runs like Dog

No we don't have a great relationship. We have a heavily armed cease fire. Be we know where the DMZ is located and what is possible to do there w/o invoking another firefight.


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## Entropy3000

Runs like Dog said:


> No we don't have a great relationship. We have a heavily armed cease fire. Be we know where the DMZ is located and what is possible to do there w/o invoking another firefight.


Sorry to hear that. I do respect your opinion and enjoy your comments in the forum.


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## Entropy3000

You know, I would love the attention and the physical contact with women as well. Wow, being able to act single and hookup would be some really good fun. I could get into that. AND I could have my marriage too? WoooHooooo!!! Just a bit of fun.

Gee, if I did not care about my marriage vows and did not love and respect my wife I would enjoy the heck out of this stuff too.

But, alas I would not do that out of respect for her and our marriage. I guess I am messed up. I could only pursue this stuff if I was a complete @$$hole slimebag and did not care for my wife.

So help me out again, it is ok for women to do this!? WTF over.


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## michzz

To me, a GNO spent dancing with strange men who, of course, are there purely for love of "the dance", is both BS and kind of like someone who likes to soak themself in gasoline with fellow gasoline soakers, then being shocked when they get burnt to a crisp when someone there also expresses their love of lit matches.


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## MrK

Entropy3000 said:


> So help me out again, it is ok for women to do this!? WTF over.


I'm not a clubber. But I've heard stories my whole life and over the past 2 years dealing with my issues I've read a LOT on this and other forums on the issue. 

There are a lot of men, as many as half, that have no problems with their SO's partying at these places. Very few of those say that they go themselves and have first hand experience, and ALL of them play the "you're too controlling" card. So I don't take much stock in what they say.

Women are interestingly divided as well. You've got the clubbers that defend their lifestyle. It's all innocent. But of course one person's "innocent" would be past anothers boundry. There are a surprising number of women who claim to have been there before and agree with you and me: There is no place in a commited relationship for this activity. They've been there while in a committed relationship and in hindsight, partook in some pretty inappropriate activity.

My real education, however, were when my key-word searches didn't hit on the "she's clubbing again" issue. It hit on the "here's how my night went last night" posts. 

Post, after post, after post of some of the most amazing behavior that you could imagine happening in a public place. From the married girls playing "let's get drunk for free" until 3AM, to the girl that let some stranger get to third base in a booth (and posted because she was devastated only because he was married, not because she didn't know him and it was in front of people), to making out with (sometimes multiple) strangers on a dance floor, to the grinding, doing coke of an erect penis in the bathroom stall, to bj's in the parking lot, to the "I can't believe I let that happen, to the rufies, drunk driving, to the....

Not quite just like a supermarket, is it.

You get the point. In almost all cases, a wife just walking out the door to voluntarily enter this environment is in and of itself an act of infidelity.

But what I think Entropy is asking, is for people with experience in this issue to respond. Is it OK? We' get the men who are adult enough to allow their wives to do this with NO IDEA what they are doing while there. Can we get a little more first hand experience?


----------



## the guy

I have had to approach a guy kissing on my wife right in front of me....clubs are full of drunks and both me and my wife were part of it. There is always a fight, a mistake , a .......bad deal

I have seen first hand how bold these vampires can be. I have seen the drama of people being over served and watching and being part of it..... flowing out into the parking lot. 

And this is just a guys perspective (fights). for chicks its most likely more .....suductive (back room sex).

After spending plenty of time at bars/clubs ( part of my dimise in my marriage) I have seen the flirting and the suduction and the fights. It is with out a doubt a very unhealthy enviorment in so many was. Guys fight and the ones that don't suduce women.

I have seen guys with the most attractive chicks hit on the most homely of women when there SO is not around (afair down). I have seen the hotest girls walk out with the homelyest guys, only to see them with there husband the next weekend.

In general anything can happen when theres booze, alot of poeple and no moral compass to keep folks from doing dumb things they will regret the next day.

IDK some call it the "me generation" but I think it is all about the enviorment of the clubs. Back in the day they called them "discos"


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## B329FA

Ok here goes. 

First MrK if you and your wife are happy and everything is good in the marriage then girls night out is no big deal. The thing for me right now is my marriage is not good and recently my wife has made some dumb choices. So right now my trust is down but for the first 17 years of my marriage GNO was no big deal. A bunch of ladies would rent a limo to take them to the club and bring them home. They danced as a group. Wife would not slow dance with anyone only fast dance. Guess for you if your marriage is good and you trust your wife let her go. If you don't she will feel trapped and feel like you are controlling. 

Entropy2000 BNO for me is hanging out shooting pool drinking beer. I can honestly say I have never been to a strip club nor had lap dances or anything like that. And I honestly have no desire for any of that stuff. As far as trust goes. I truly believe you have to have that trust. I know that every now and then I use to love to to go Hooters on a Sunday afternoon drink beer eat raw oysters and watch a nascar race on the tv. Should my wife trust me to do this? Or how bout them nights I have wanted to just go to a local bar and have a few beers by myself? If I want her to trust me to do these things then I have to trust her also. Both men and women put them selves in these situations it isn't always the woman.

I wonder how many guys out there think its no big deal to stop at the local watering whole to have a few beers with the fella's while watching a sporting event? 

Isn't that basically the same thing as your wife going out to have a few drinks with the ladies and do some dancing.

Isn't it the same? drinks while doing an activity you like with your friends?

yes I got burned but that is not because of the club but rather because of what was going on at home. If the home life isn't happy then the wife will find it anywhere be it at a club, restaurant, coffee shop, grocery store etc. Infidelity is not the clubs fault its the fault of the home life.


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## Conrad

It's actually not the same thing for a couple of reasons.

Guys initiate.

I've been going to local watering holes regularly since my separation. I simply don't approach women and nothing happens. I have no interest.

I sing karaoke. I sing well. Standing ovations, etc. Lots of dancing, etc. Nothing happens - because I don't pursue.

GNO?

Groups of women?

There are BOOKS written on how to break-in to a group of women and zero in on your target. How to get her to a secluded place. Exactly where to touch her - and how to escalate.

Now - here's the key thing.

Women really like attention.

Women in groups are competitive about "who" gets the attention.

Mix in liberal amounts of alcohol?

No - it's not the same thing.

ESPECIALLY if your relationship isn't rock solid.


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## Conrad

Entropy3000 said:


> FWIW and according to this guy she would not be comfortable with the reverse situation. So ok for her but not him.


BINGO!

And, that's the key to the whole thing.

The Golden Rule.

If you are merely enforcing your boundary on the "other side" of the Golden Rule, you are to stand fast and not budge.

Double standards are like dead batteries. They corrode relationships from within.


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## Entropy3000

B329FA said:


> Ok here goes.
> 
> First MrK if you and your wife are happy and everything is good in the marriage then girls night out is no big deal. The thing for me right now is my marriage is not good and recently my wife has made some dumb choices. So right now my trust is down but for the first 17 years of my marriage GNO was no big deal. A bunch of ladies would rent a limo to take them to the club and bring them home. They danced as a group. Wife would not slow dance with anyone only fast dance. Guess for you if your marriage is good and you trust your wife let her go. If you don't she will feel trapped and feel like you are controlling.
> 
> Entropy2000 BNO for me is hanging out shooting pool drinking beer. I can honestly say I have never been to a strip club nor had lap dances or anything like that. And I honestly have no desire for any of that stuff. As far as trust goes. I truly believe you have to have that trust. I know that every now and then I use to love to to go Hooters on a Sunday afternoon drink beer eat raw oysters and watch a nascar race on the tv. Should my wife trust me to do this? Or how bout them nights I have wanted to just go to a local bar and have a few beers by myself? If I want her to trust me to do these things then I have to trust her also. Both men and women put them selves in these situations it isn't always the woman.
> 
> I wonder how many guys out there think its no big deal to stop at the local watering whole to have a few beers with the fella's while watching a sporting event?
> 
> Isn't that basically the same thing as your wife going out to have a few drinks with the ladies and do some dancing.
> 
> Isn't it the same? drinks while doing an activity you like with your friends?
> 
> yes I got burned but that is not because of the club but rather because of what was going on at home. If the home life isn't happy then the wife will find it anywhere be it at a club, restaurant, coffee shop, grocery store etc. Infidelity is not the clubs fault its the fault of the home life.


If the marriage is good, why mess it up with this type of GNO.
I think it is a symptom of problems or at least problems yet to come. Sorry I do not trust the environment, the guys wanting to get laid or the alcohol with the most important person in my life ... my wife. 

GNOs themselves are great. Just not in the meat markets where women are playing with the boys.

Your BNOs are fine. Respectful of your wife. I am with you. If you went to meat markets, drank, bought drinks for women and danced with them, you are having something similar to what women do here. BUT, rest assurred one big difference is that IF a women ... pretty much any women wanted to push the envelope or just decide to have sex ... they could. A guy has to work for it. He has to find some married chick that is looking for attention and play the game. 

I don't even think strip clubs are the same but close enough for our discussion. I am not defending strip clubs. I don't go to them. I did that when I was single way back when when I was playing sailor. Lap dances are cheating to me. Lap dances are really what is going on in the meat markets with the women.
Going to a meat market and dancing with the girls may be equivalnet to men going to a strip club. When they dance with the men ... lap dances. In the VIP room. Not exactly the same but again, close enough.

Statistics show that mens 100% trust in their wives is unwarranted. Yeah I know but our wives are different. If one's marraige is having stress of any kind one might as well remove his wifes panties, if she is wearing any as she goes out the door.

Again, not sure why folks are avoiding the meat market thing. They keep bringing up other scenarios. Why is that.

Have you actually been to these meat markets for yourself? I keep hearing from guys that say it is not for them and that they have never gone. How can one make a judgement based on zero knowledge.

Most men when they go to a bar with there friends are not going to be constantly hit on by women who want to have sex with them, right now. So no, what you are talking about is not remotely what we are talking about. Also, women have a different priority of their needs. Attention is way way up there. Being desired. They get that from the men who want to have sex with them. It is intoxicating. This is really dating for the wife. She may have no intention of letting things go very far but she is playing with seduction. It is darwinian that women who get their needs met in this way are then prepped for meeting what men are looking for most. So one thing leads to another. It is natural.


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## Entropy3000

Conrad said:


> It's actually not the same thing for a couple of reasons.
> 
> Guys initiate.
> 
> I've been going to local watering holes regularly since my separation. I simply don't approach women and nothing happens. I have no interest.
> 
> I sing karaoke. I sing well. Standing ovations, etc. Lots of dancing, etc. Nothing happens - because I don't pursue.
> 
> GNO?
> 
> Groups of women?
> 
> There are BOOKS written on how to break-in to a group of women and zero in on your target. How to get her to a secluded place. Exactly where to touch her - and how to escalate.
> 
> Now - here's the key thing.
> 
> Women really like attention.
> 
> Women in groups are competitive about "who" gets the attention.
> 
> Mix in liberal amounts of alcohol?
> 
> No - it's not the same thing.
> 
> ESPECIALLY if your relationship isn't rock solid.


Exactly. Pickup is a real science. PUA. Pickup Artist.

Google "Kino Escalation" and "PUA". You will laugh at this stuff. It seems silly. But it works in a club atmosphere. It will work on many of your wives. They will laugh that off but the take away is that this is not random stuff. To these guys, this GAME is what they do. They score often. They are predators. To blow them off as pathetic geeks is stupid. Add to the game a real sex rank 9 Alpha male and now you have the picture. The thing is sex rank 9-10 males will seek sex with sex rank 7-10 females. Unlikely in the reverse.

http://www.pualingo.com/pua-routines/

Married women can be easy targets.

1) Few marraiges are that rock solid. If they were, she would not be going to these. Think about that. Rock solid and going to the meat markets are mutually exclusive.

2) ALL mariages have stresses and strains from time to time. It is their nature.

3) A husband cannot compete with a fantasy ( all the time )

4) Women can have a Beta guy at home she loves and still be going after the Alpha guy that gives her her dopamine. At some point then she loves her hubby but is not in love with them.

5) This is a slippery slope. Kinda like a nuclear reactor meltdown. By the time you see a problem it is too late. Waiting for complete failure is less than smart

6) Seriously how many guys are raising children that are not their own because they trust their wives 100%. I know that sounds extreme but we are talking about women going to meat markets to play with Alpha men. Men that give them what their husbands don't or cannot. It is a candy store. A husband no matter how great in every way is still just that guy she has spent 10 or 15 years or more with. He is kinda boring. been there done that. He is not new and exciting. ( yes he can change his behavior to help with this )

7) Look it bodes well that our wives chose us to begin with, even though that can erode over time. Call this the insecure bullet. BUT, from an objective standpoint, if your wife is a sex rank 7 and you are a sex rank 7 and your wife is hanging out with males who are sex rank, 8-10 then you have some serious competition buddy. Maybe not when she is sober. Add alcohol, game, her in a sexy outfit with lotsa skin showing, minimal or no undergarments ( automatic gain in sex rank for women ), her enjoyment and response to attention ( automatic gain in sex rank for women ), physical contact with hot guys ( touching / groping / kissing ), possibly ovulating ( this is when most women cheat ), music, sexual atmosphere, grifriends ( you go girl ) and any stress on the marriage. OMG . She has upped her sex rank for the night up to an 8+. She did this on prupose because it gives her the most attention. Attention from guys that are a higher sex rank than you ever could be. yeah I know she loves you and you fullfill most of her needs most of the time. But this is a more specific need. It is fantasy. You cannot compete my friend. I dont think this is insecurity. I think this is playing with fire. The good news for some guys is that the sex will go up for a bit and be really hot and then it peters out. They probably will never know about their wives infidelity. GNO is a great opportunity and cover for infedility and all its shades of gray. Sexy fun. I have no idea whether women go into this with eyes wide open or not. I suspect they are just playing just the tip and are willing to risk their marriage against them controlling things. But women get seduced all the time. Depending on the study women cheat 32% to 50%. I wonder if the women who go to those meat markets are more likley to cheat. Also what constitutes cheating. Full on penetration without a condom? Again to me going to theese and playing with the men is cheating. I think men getting lap dances is cheating to. These events are not covered in the 32% to 50%. So the number is going to be very high.

8) GNOs provide great cover. It is accepted. So it is pretty easy to cheat if one is inclined. But here is the deal. Maybe on a given % of women will take the risk of cheating. BUT if they think they will not get caught or have the excuse of I was drunk honey if discovered then by definition that % goes up.

Hey, I love my wife so much I would give up my life to save hers in a heartbeat.
Get me drunk and put me in a bed with a group of hot females who desparately want to have sex with me and who knows? Lets say I am a saint and the first five times this happens I fight my way out. How about the sixth time. Be honest. How easy is that to walk away from. A fantasy for a guy? I am saying that that is pretty much what women are looking at in thier decision to cheat or not in these environments. Now throw in a ruffie. 
BUT the key is that this is just good fun and ultimately good for a marriage.

Would you put your wife in a bed with a bunch of hot guys? Sure I am taking this a step or two down the road, but at what point is the seduction too far? The parking lot is not far from the dance floor. Surely she would fight her way out of the bed.


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## Entropy3000

Wow. Yet another poor Nice Guy bites the dust with a woman's GNO where she goes even though he has asked her not to:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/27528-girls-night-out.html#post358223


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## MrK

I know we've kind of beaten this horse dead a while ago, I just want to make one more point re: the clubbing wives who defend their lifestyles. 

These places are ANYTHING BUT the wholesome fun places you make them out to be. You KNOW what these places are like. You hang out there. You are disingenuous when you claim that husbands are controlling pricks for having a concern with their wives wanting to go there. You MAY have the innocent nights you claim to have, but you also know why these places exist and why MOST people go there. 

I want to know why you don't say: "Women CAN and DO go there for wholesome fun. Me and my friends do. But you are correct in being concerned under certain circumstances".

Now, I'll admit that my theory on why the clubbing defenders do this is a tad paranoid, but I think they want to counter the message of what REALLY goes on there with their own invented reality because they don't want their husbands to start questioning THEM. "No honey, those stories you hear are wrong. It's really just good, wholesome fun. Please don't start acting like a jealous, controlling creep like MrK and Entropy3000. I would NEVER do anything to disrespect our marriage".

And lastly. And this may shock some, but people lie to their spouses when they have affairs or engage in inappropriate activity. So excuse us if we question our spouses on their choice of lifestyle.


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## B329FA

This has been an interesting thread. But I guess the bottom line is this. If you are the spouse sitting at home you are between a rock and a hard spot. If you tell your spouse you don't want them going then you are automatically trying to control them and not allow them to have fun. And this is going to make them want to do it even more. But then again if you let them go out for the GNO's/BNO's and something happens then you get hurt. 

This I would have to say is a lose lose situation. You know for sure if you put your foot down you are surely going to lose. But if you let them go you have a coin flip (50-50) chance of winning or losing. Not the kind of odds anyone really wants to bet their life on.


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## Entropy3000

Telling your wife you do not want her to do things is in no way controlling. It is being honest. It is being her husband and not just her freind. It is part of his role. It goes both ways. 

If a couple has already established agreed upon boundaries this is a much easier discussion to have. Instead of the husband being "controlling" his wife then has to explain why she wants to expand her boundaries.

Much thought should go into boundary setting. It also has to be re-evaluated from time to time. BUT boundaries should not be unilaterally changed by one spouse of the other. 

I don't get the fear of being called controlling. Who cares? Again my wife has never told me I am controlling or insecure at any time during our marriage. 

If they do not respect your concerns and resentmant happens then there are bigger issues. Either certain behavior is expected or it is not.

If going to these type of places is more important than her husbands concerns that is a huge red flag and worth confronting before the shennigans and fog begins. Putting the geni back in the bottle is not a good way to go. These are the ones most likely to cheat and rationaize anyway. My husband does not own me. I can give myself to anyone if it feels good.

Women love the attention from guys.

We will never know, but how many wives would be ok if their husband told them they would be fine with any activities as long as there is no sex. Meaning anything up until penetration is ok.

Lets take the set of all women whose hubby's trust ~ 100% and who wich to go to meat markets for whatever reason and justification: ( so not all women for sure )

1) Some women would feel this is their boundary now, even before a husband stating this. So maybe no change in actual behavior.

2) Some may already have no boundaries and freely engage in sex with others now. Would their behavior change?

3) Others would not change their behavior but would be titilated by the idea.

4) I suspect a good many of the women would alter their behavior in some manner ranging from small changes to right up to that boundary. This is a broad range for sure. I think the majority of women would fall here, but no way I could ever know.

5) Some others will always just cross at least the next boundary if not more no matter what it is. Her husband is not her father you know. LOL. 

By definition of the above "cheating" may actually go down. As anything up until penetration is not cheating here. BUT I contend that passing that last bondary would increase dramtically because at some point the women would not be able to turn back from playing just the tip. There are no caution flags. Maybe they would even convince themselves using a condom would not really be crossing the line.

Now for me cheating occurs way way before penetration. But that is just me.

I am not discounting wives who would be upset by their hubby's suggestion as they would fear he would do the same. So for the purposes of argument lets say the man is very Beta and is just going to be working and taking care of the kids while mom is out having her fun.
How many wives would think this is great?

What is my point? If there is little pressure ( you can call it control ) on an individual from their spouse, they are left to just what their own level of selfishness will allow. Maybe that works fine without any pressures. Lets add the atmosphere and alcohol in these meat markets now. I say a good portion of women would take advantage of this expanded boundary. So what is wrong with a husband stating what his boundary is for her up front and agree on it. 

If the boundary is look but don't touch, it is a risky boundary in a meat market. Unfair to both parties. Also impossible to validate. But a boundary none-the-less.

If the boundary is look but dont touch and no meat markets, it is a much more achieveable boundary. It may not be acceptable by both. If the two cannot agree on the bondaries no matter their discussions then realize you are not compatible and the marriage is not the highest priority.

There are deterents to cheating. After one's own character, there is jealousy from their partner that motivates that partner to intervene and fight for the marriage. There is social stigma to cheating certainly. But that is fast erroding. Meat markets are pretty much legitimate places to "get your freak on". Marriage is suspended for many there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidelity

Check out Defense mechanisms to prevent infidelity.

Now I am in the group that at least has the illusion that the best defense to infidelity is a good stable loving marriage where partners care and meet each others needs. In no way IMHO do Ibeleive meat markets are part of this. That said if two partners set boundaries, agree on them and stick by them that is goodness. Just don't put yourself in situations where boundaries are very hard to stick by and frankly validate.


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## Entropy3000

B329FA said:


> This has been an interesting thread. But I guess the bottom line is this. If you are the spouse sitting at home you are between a rock and a hard spot. If you tell your spouse you don't want them going then you are automatically trying to control them and not allow them to have fun. And this is going to make them want to do it even more. But then again if you let them go out for the GNO's/BNO's and something happens then you get hurt.
> 
> This I would have to say is a lose lose situation. *You know for sure if you put your foot down you are surely going to lose.* But if you let them go you have a coin flip (50-50) chance of winning or losing. Not the kind of odds anyone really wants to bet their life on.


Not so. Your wife might even gain some respect for you for not being overly Beta and a doormat. I am just saying it is not an absolute. You can also have some finesse in putting your foot down. Maybe that is the key. You flat do not have to accept this.

It is not a matter of absolute failure and a 50/50. 

Is it really a 50/50 chance that a woman will cheat in a meat market. Hmmmmmm. You know you could be right. It is probably way over 50/50 that she will do things her spouse would not approve of.


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## marrid4life

Undertheradar said:


> I have to disagree.
> 
> I have had this conversation with life long female friends. Lots of them just like to go dancing, and take in the energy.


I agree because i have had a secret agent go with my wife on these GNO's and all the S/A told me was they are staying in their circle and taking in the energy within themselves of course the cattlemen will always make comments and try, you cannot stop their actions.


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## Travis F.

The whole "Girl" irrational emotionally charged "out of control" thing shouldn't surprize anyone here. Women, girls are wired this way and are subject to be driven completely by their emotions ,while leaving any thinking capacity they may have at the door. This phenomena has been and can be observed over and again (for example) ...go to any live music concert ,and there you will see girls falling out on the floor with convulsions ,pulling their shirts off , exposing themselves for all to see , hyperventelating , screaming , trying to rip the clothes off the male performers. This was well documented behavior for girls and women with Elvis Presely and thousands of other events to date..... and proof positive that supposedly "normal" girls , in which we live around on a daily bases ... if given the right place and right time will lose all rationality ,allowing their emotions to completely take over and are subject to do anything at anytime... especially in the company of her other hysterical emotionally driven friends. a woman's friends are her most influential enemies under these conditions. 

Small amounts of this occurence can be witnessed ...when women get together just around the home to have coffee.. They get louder and louder ,,,they become giddy and start to laugh uncontrollably. It's nothing new ,and YES ! it is completely possible and for a woman who would seemingly never do things she shouldn't while out with "the girls" to lose all control and then regret it later.In these emotionally charged atmospheres ,women feed off each other and lose their ability to think as an individual , giddy, laughing till tears run out of their eyes, Allowing themselves to say or do almost anything.

Women also have a built in "justification" mechanism ... in any stuation where she was involved in wrongdoing. She may feel guilty for a little while ..but then starts to rationalize ,justify and convince herself what she did was not all that wrong if wrong at all. She knows if she convinces herself to mentally view a wrongdoing a certain way ... it won't seem so bad ... and with the help of ALL her friends she will be fully convinced by the time she leaves that she in fact did nothing and even feel a sense of entitlement, while never applying the same deceptive logic ,if she found out her husband or boyfriend were doing the exact same thing. In most cases ... the woman will hype herself up into an emotional frenzy to the point where she secretly blames her husband or boyfriend for her actions. This is just how far the 
"justification" process will get out of hand. If she lies to herself long enough , she will start believing herself... opening the door for more transgressions in the future with the "girls"

Once the justification process is in effect ... if the woman slips back and starts to feel regret or remorse for her actions .... she will have an army of women at her disposal to support her and continue to convince her that her actions were NOT wrong and that the worst thing she could do is be honest with her husband.

So as you can see ...a woman is perfectly capable of doing anything and everything that she would never ever forgive her husband or boyfriend of doing ,just by using a little justification and self deception and the backing of a small army of other women supporting her along the way.


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## tacoma

MrK said:


> I need to know. We men are confused. We can't even imagine being somewhere that gangs of women would want to screw us and we would do anything but acquiesce. How can we handle it? Is it even a bad thing that they do this?


I`m not confused.

My wife doesn`t go partying without me.
I don`t go partying without her.

We have no problems because of this arrangement.


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## Travis F.

The thing a man or woman would need to ask themselves is "why a woman or a man would feel the need to place themselves in an environment where the opposite sex is looking for sex and or other?",,,, IF the GNO is truly about women's socialization and good innocent fun ... then there's no need to go to a bar or club or male strip tease. Just by placing themselves in these atmospheres is implication enough to reveal their true intentions. It's INAPPROPRIATE ... and after a woman or a man who's married steps foot in an establishment like that ... that's where the argument ends... doesn't matter why or if something happened after they set foot in that place ... all that matters at that point is the fact that they were there to begin with as a person in a relationship married or SO....


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