# I want her back and she can't understand why



## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

Four days ago I finally confirmed that my wife has been having a long distance emotional affair for more than one and possibly two years. I've suspected it for about a year, but she never admitted it. We are both devastated about what has happened, and scared for our future. I'm dying inside. Despite all the lies, I believe her statements that nothing physical more than kissing happened. If anything had happened, there would be no discussion of reconciliation. But in the last year I have come to recognize some of the things about our marriage that have led us to this point, and I believe that we can work them out if we are both committed to make the effort. I've known her for sixteen years and I know all of the things about her that have made me crazy in love with her during that time. They're the reasons I can still love her despite this betrayal. I don't know much about the other man other than he was married, to a marriage counselor no less, who left him when she found out. He apparently has had other affairs, a point I don't think my wife was aware of. As part of my dealing with this pain and in an attempt to regain some of my self respect, I made it clear to her that I am a better man with greater integrity and a stronger character than him. She knows I am judging his actions, and I have been crystal clear on my feelings about hers. But she can't believe I could possibly want her back after I say those things about him, that she then applies directly to herself. She sees how badly I am hurting and knows I am this way because of what she did, and I have no doubt she regrets what she did and could go back and change things, and understandably wonders what is wrong with me that I want her back. Other than just saying straight out I want to try to hold this together, to take what's left of what we had and rebuild it, and to meet with a counsellor and start working on the issues that got us here; is there anything else I can do to convince her I'm sincere in my desire to work to rebuild our marriage and make it stronger? She agreed to have me schedule marriage counselling and we have an appointment next week, but we have not reached a firm decision that we are going to try to reconcile rather than divorce. We have a 5 year old little girl who weighs heavily into our decisions, but we have both committed to the idea that if the only reason we have to save the marriage is her, we are going to walk away.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

I was the cheater in an EA and I'll tell you it's hard to pull your head out of your own ass coming out of one. It's really a very confusing experience - so many emotions to sort out. In addition to what she has done to you, your marriage and your family she is dealing with what she has done to herself. She has very likely shattered her image of herself and it takes a while to get on even ground if that's the case. She really can't move forward much until she can process and accept that what she did does not make her a bad person as long as she corrects what she can and learns from it. Once she accepts that she can then rebuild her self image and then really start to move forward. 

I know it seems counter intuitive that someone coming out of an affair would struggle like this - I mean we had the affair right? Didn't we think about the consequences? Nope. Doesn't work that way. Once the affair is over and the fog is lifting it's like an out of body experience looking back at what you were a part of - it really is. When I look back all I can do is shake my head in disgust. 

IMO the best thing the two of you can do for each other is to talk. Lean on each other, use each other to help both of you deal with this. You have been there for each other before right? Well now you have this massive trauma in common - pull together and help each other deal with it and work through it. Ultimately it's either going to pull you together or drive you apart. If you can find your strength in each other, it will pull you together.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

She should be the one working for the marriage after the cheating. Tell her clearly that you would like to reconciliate. Then let her do the heavy lifting. you cannot force R ifshe is not into it


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

warlock is right to. You're only 4 days in - neither one of you have started to sort our your emotions. You're both still shell shocked. It's a long road - a marathon - not a sprint. It's good that you want to help her but don't cut her any slack on what she has to do to repair the marriage - none. 

FWIW my wife and I are 17 months post D Day and still dealing with it. We're having a very successful reconciliation but it's far from finished.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

ROCDOC said:


> Other than just saying straight out I want to try to hold this together, to take what's left of what we had and rebuild it, and to meet with a counsellor and start working on the issues that got us here; is there anything else I can do to convince her I'm sincere in my desire to work to rebuild our marriage and make it stronger? She agreed to have me schedule marriage counselling and we have an appointment next week, but we have not reached a firm decision that we are going to try to reconcile rather than divorce. We have a 5 year old little girl who weighs heavily into our decisions, but we have both committed to the idea that if the only reason we have to save the marriage is her, we are going to walk away.


Give it some time. Its' still pretty early and you guys are going to have a lot emotions rising to the surface over the next several months. You both have to be committed. It is not up to you to make her believe that you forgive her. She has to do the work and be committed herself. The fact that you are choosing to give her the gift of another chance is generous and kind of you and she should appreciate it without pressuring you over and over to prove that you really want to give it to her. She may not be out of the affair fog yet. She may not be certain she wants to commit to you fully. You're being generous, here, but if she is just making excuses because she wants out of the marriage, then you're going to feel worse if this happens again or you later find out that she wasn't really committed. Don't pressure her to accept your gift. Step back and work on your own issues, emotions, and thoughts and spend time with your child. Hang in there.


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## desert-rose (Aug 16, 2011)

sigma1299 said:


> IMO the best thing the two of you can do for each other is to talk. Lean on each other, use each other to help both of you deal with this. You have been there for each other before right? Well now you have this massive trauma in common - pull together and help each other deal with it and work through it. Ultimately it's either going to pull you together or drive you apart. If you can find your strength in each other, it will pull you together.


:iagree:


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Why do you need to convince HER that you want her? You're still there after she cheated. She should be working to convince YOU that she won't stray again.


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

Wow! Thank you all for the very insightful and very helpful responses. I understand and have already recognized in my wife the things you describe in your first post, Sigma. It is becoming clear that issues related to self-image and self-worth are wrapped around the roots of her affair, and now the reality of everything of the past four days is tearing away at those things that were tenuous at best. I've been concerned for a while that she is depressed and have told her this. More than convincing her that I want to hang on to our marriage, I think I'm struggling to convince her that I have not stopped loving her and seeing her as a good person who is deserving of my love and compassion. It has been made abundantly clear that she has F'ed up and that there will be no tolerance for any relapse into the relationship with this man. Though I don't recall what thread it was in, I remember a post describing cheaters and one group are people for whom it was a once in a lifetime thing. I truly believe that this is the case with my wife, and that she would end our marriage now or in the future before having another affair. I also realize that she has a lot of work to do to rebuild herself as well as working on the marriage. I think she recognizes it, and one of her main struggles is figuring out if she can do it. I know she can, but I don't think she knows it yet. And so I've told her that if she believes she can't do both, in this case she needs to put herself first and get the help she needs or she will never be happy with herself or with anyone; and she will never be capable of being the mother she needs to be for our daughter. She has told me that she will not leave me for the other man, and I think she has come to terms with the idea that she needs to leave him, and not just for our marriage. But I'm not sure that for her, ending the affair means keeping the marriage. But as was said, we are four days in and the wounds are open and raw, and each day it seems like someone comes around to rub salt in them. I can't wait for the guy with the salve and the bandages to show up.


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## 123savemarriage (Dec 30, 2011)

For me, love is unconditional.
It has NO records of WRONG.
And love never changes, if it change, it increases.

Never quit of fighting. Specially on what you believe in.
Just do everything and God will do the rest.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

You and your wife sound a lot like my wife and I to me - roles reversed of course. 

A word of encouragement for you. It is possible to come out of this with a better marriage than you had before the affair. My wife and I do - my wife will even go so far as to say, "it was worth it." Accept that the marriage you had is over (it took me a while to understand this) but that the one in front of you can be better than the one you left behind. 

Like I said - don't cut her any slack on the things she must do to rebuild the marriage. It's just as important to her that she do them as it is to you. Love her - support her - help her - but don't give her a free pass on any of it. 

One more thing. I can't speak for my wife on this but I know that I would periodically get hit with overwhelming feelings of despondency or fatalism about our marriage, especially when we fought. This went on for about the first year. If things are going well don't let these get to you and try to keep your wife from falling prey to them. They're B.S. and really just a temporary bout of depression. 

Good Luck.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

By saying your wife had an affair for 1 or possibly 2 years sounds as if you're not completely informed of what went on.To accept that they only kissed seems odd considering you don't even know the true length of the EA.


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

I understand your skepticism TBT. The uncertainty about the exact time has to do with the uncertain about when exactly a friendship among a group of friends evolved into a more personal friendship that involved into an emotional affair. We live 1000 miles from him. Both my wife and he are world-class competitive athletes in the same team sport. They compete within their gender, and while their teams do not usually travel together, there are some competitions in which both of their teams compete. It was through their sport and mutual friends that they got to know each other. She insists that no one else knows, and I believe it because it would have to have been a granddaddy of a conspiracy to keep it under wraps if her and his teammates knew. Relative to the amount of time they have known each other, they have spent very little time in each other's presence. They typically do not attend the same competitions, and there is zero chance she has been travelling to meet him. 

It's becoming clear that what she got from him was a lot of excitement related to the sport that I can't provide her. He has coached world championship teams and has been to the olympics. I think she was a bit star struck because it was the years leading up to their meeting that she and her team started to have significant success, and I think that being friends with he and his friends was a sign of just how far she had come. The irony is that I'm at home supporting her in every way I can do to pursue this passion, and was there at the very beginning played a MAJOR role in her getting to where she is now. I participate in the sport recreationally and love being in games with her or having her teach me, but I can't share the stories or expertise or camraderie that he does. I am a very successful physician, and I say with modesty that I am a pretty good all-around athlete and a great father and even my wife would argue that I'm a great husband. But I can't do everything at a world-class level.

I find very interesting the idea of being addicted to an affair. She told me that she kissed him, but never did anything else physical because she knew where to draw the line. I trusted her sincerity because she laughed at herself and commented on how ridiculous it sounded when she said it. She knew she would lose everything if she slept with him, but I don't think she ever really considered the consequences of what she had already done or where it was going to lead to. I've been trying to confirm my suspicions for a year, and we've actually worked on a lot of things on our marriage as a result of identifying problems as a result of dealing with my "jealousy issues" that I never had until clues about a relationship with another man started to surface. We had a fantastic summer as a husband and wife and as a family, and she told me today that she actually had very little contact with him, and that was very casual. Then September rolls around and the season picks up, and everything else apparently picked up, and I started seeing changes in the marriage again. She gets an incredible rush from competing. I asked her today how she can compete with all of this going on. She told me that once the game starts, everything else melts away and she can focus completely. I believe her. So her real conundrum is not quitting the guy, it's does quitting the guy mean having to quit the sport. There is no real way of completely avoiding contact with him without quitting the sport, or at least not competing at that level, which would be like quitting. And right now neither of us is sure she could deal with that.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

No contact is no contact. If she can't find a way to compete and avoid him then she may have to pick. I understand neither of you wanting that to be necessary but no contact is mandatory - remember I'm the cheater in my marriage and I can tell you - it's an absolute must. Once a relationship has gone down this road the slightest spark can erupt in literally the blink of an eye. 

If she can't find a way to keep no contact to your satisfaction - well there are prices to cheating. No free pass remember?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

ROCDOC said:


> But she can't believe I could possibly want her back after I say those things about him, that she then applies directly to herself. She sees how badly I am hurting and knows I am this way because of what she did, and I have no doubt she regrets what she did and could go back and change things, and understandably wonders what is wrong with me that I want her back.


 So if you say bad things about her lover she is letting you know that you are saying bad things about her. She is also saying that if you feel so strongly on the subject the marriage is over. Bottom line is she is setting the rules for the conversation such that you better be careful what you say or the marraige is over. This is not true remorse by her. This about her staying in control.


ROCDOC said:


> is there anything else I can do to convince her I'm sincere in my desire to work to rebuild our marriage and make it stronger?


 Talk about turning the tables and holding control, you have to "convince her" of your desire to work it out? Wow, talk about beta behavior. Take your balls back from her and tell her that you are not sure you want to stay in the marraige. Tell her that if she wants to try for R she needs to show full remorse and needs to convince you to give her a second chance. Any other action will guarantee that she will cheat again. 


BTW she did more than just kiss the OM.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

ROC

Just out of curiosity,during the time you were trying to confirm your suspicions did you post on another forum.I only ask because this sounds familiar.


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## JustWaiting (Jun 28, 2011)

I won't get into alpha and beta. You love your wife, you've been hit by a truck, and the world will never be the same. I don't envy you what you will go through for a long time to come....the ups and downs, fears and worries and triggers. What I will address is the word "just". Just kissing? Just caressing? Just emotional. Or, "it didn't mean anything". A long-term EA is not a one-time dalliance. You want your wife? Good. I'm rooting for you and your marriage. It's gonna take a lot of time and work. Life is long and people do stupid and selfish things. Read everything out there. You'll get done with the first book and think it gives you the answers then read the next book and decide the first book was wrong. If there was a simple one-size-fits-all answer for everyone, no one would be posting. Don't make any rash decisions. Don't feel pressured or embarrassed. Drive down the block and wonder how there can be infidelity in half of the marriages...if you think that statistic is high, then figure at the low end that the couple in one out of every four houses you pass has gone through something. Know that for all the tough advice you get on this forum, you will be in an equal number of prayers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> It's becoming clear that what she got from him was a lot of excitement related to the sport that I can't provide her. He has coached world championship teams and has been to the olympics. I think she was a bit star struck because it was the years leading up to their meeting that she and her team started to have significant success, and I think that being friends with he and his friends was a sign of just how far she had come. The irony is that I'm at home supporting her in every way I can do to pursue this passion, and was there at the very beginning played a MAJOR role in her getting to where she is now. I participate in the sport recreationally and love being in games with her or having her teach me, but I can't share the stories or expertise or camraderie that he does. I am a very successful physician, and I say with modesty that I am a pretty good all-around athlete and a great father and even my wife would argue that I'm a great husband. But I can't do everything at a world-class level.


So she's like his groupie or something? How the hell is R going to work if you know she's likely going to see him at a competition again in the future? ROCDOC this is some scary sh*t. She may be talking how she is committed to staying away from him, but if there is a real physical and mental attraction there... well, you've got your work cut out for you. Is your marriage worth more to her than her precious sport?


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

Thanks for all of the advice and insight since my last post. Even TRy made me think, once I got past his personality disorder and need to deal with his own failings and shortcomings through acerbic (look it up, TRy) "advice" (notice you have never started a thread, must have all the answers). I appreciate perspective on this problem that point out where I might be in trouble or ill-prepared, but I'm not here looking to be judged for loving my wife and having the capacity to forgive. Enough on that.

I have not posted about this before. I only started looking at this site recently. I stated before that I am a physician, and my job day in and day out requires a tremendous amount of empathy. To understand what someone is going through, or how she got to where she is, I need to be able to put myself in her shoes. My wife was never this guy's groupie, but I think she was pretty excited to become his friend. Think of anyone you have ever admired who you felt was unreachable or untouchable, same or opposite sex, likely a celebrity. How would you feel if you were able to become friends with this person and they showed a real (presumably) interest in you. I do not at all excuse my wife's inability to keep it at the friendship level, and she knows that. 

There is no use in me posting everything I've said to her the last few days to prove I'm not a ***** (I mean beta, eh TRy?). I've said some truly awful things that came from truly awful feelings of pain and betrayal. And I hurt her, and she feels she deserved it. I have not read a single post in any thread that condones "revenge affairs". Why should anyone condone intentionally causing someone harm and pain so that they can know what you are going through. I can see she is in pain, real pain. I don't need to inflict more. This is a woman I've spent my life loving and caring about and building a relationship and a family with. And she has crapped on all of that and come within a breath of losing everything. When I first found out I called friends for recommendations of divorce lawyers and cancelled my meeting next week with my financial adviser because I would not be ready to discuss how to handle our investments in a divorce setting. 

But once the initial dust settled, I had the chance to think about who I am, and what I have built a life becoming me. I have my issues too. My misguided feelings and ideas about marriage and commitment developed almost 30 years ago (I'm 36, figure it out). I promised myself I would not do what my parents did. And in a life-long effort to avoid that, I've done things that have set me up for it. I am learning that now, and will be starting counselling I should have been in a long time ago. I spent that first day wondering how I could allow my marriage to reach the brink of collapse and put my daughter through this. I considered it my greatest failure, and that's something I'm dealing with. I am not realizing that this is not my fault, though I played a role (takes two to cheat, otherwise it's just dating). 

And so after 16 years of loving my wife with all that I am, it is very strange to feel myself hating her. And I can't throw away 16 years in an emotional reaction. And I know this might not work, she knows it might not work, we haven't agreed we are going to try to make it work. But I'm willing to try, and I've given her no room for mistake. I'm working to steel myself to live up to my commitment to ending things if she relapses at all. So I'm hopeful, but realistic. And a thousand other emotions. And after 4 days I'm already working my first ulcer.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Give this a read,it has helped a lot couples in your situation, good luck.


Print this off and have your wife read it:


Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 
__________________
What Are Plan A and Plan B?
[urlhttp://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739 

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Last edited by chapparal; 01-14-2012 at 10:01 AM.


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

Forgot one point...to the issue of my using "just" before kissed, she did not use that word, I did. It reflects my acceptance of that as part of the relationship. After a year of doing this I expected that they had screwed their brains out lots of times. But after all the lying finally being discovered, she has been very good about coming clean, and I believe her that the physical contact was minimal. For me, whether they had sex or not is not the main issue. Once you've jumped the fence of your own marriage, you are out of the yard. Whether being a mile away on your back with your legs in the air is any more out of the yard than just on the other side of the fence stealing a kiss is a point that I think can be debated. Neither one of us were virgins when we got married. Sex is part of animal attraction. But trust and honesty are human. And we have the ability to make choices. And we're trying to figure out if bad choices can be left in the past and not repeated.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> So her real conundrum is not quitting the guy, it's does quitting the guy mean having to quit the sport. There is no real way of completely avoiding contact with him without quitting the sport, or at least not competing at that level, which would be like quitting. And right now neither of us is sure she could deal with that.


So she _can_ deal with nearly destroying her marriage with you, but she _cannot _deal with taking a hiatus from her sport to work on the marriage? Just where do you rank on her list of priorities Doc?


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

That's a question as yet unanswered spudster.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How many more years would you expect her to be able to compete?


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## zsu234 (Oct 25, 2010)

2 year affair? She definitely had sex with him. Require her to take a polygraph as a condition to staying in the marriage. I didn't see that you had any kids. Look, you're young, a doctor, you can have your pick of women. 2 recent studies have come out stating that only between 14-19% of women cheat in their marriages. Unfortunately, you've got the short end of the stick with this one. 

Think about seperating for a while and going dark on her to see if this is what you want, it will also give her the gift of missing you. Good luck!


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

The Olympics are a life dream. Her team was runner up at olympic trials for 2010 in Vancouver (only one team goes). She has her sights set on 2014; trials are in autumn 2013. After that, I think it's retirement.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

ROCDOC said:


> Thanks for all of the advice and insight since my last post. Even TRy made me think, once I got past his personality disorder and need to deal with his own failings and shortcomings through acerbic (look it up, TRy) "advice" (notice you have never started a thread, must have all the answers). I appreciate perspective on this problem that point out where I might be in trouble or ill-prepared, but I'm not here looking to be judged for loving my wife and having the capacity to forgive. Enough on that.


 With all the bull that you must be dealing with right now, I am sorry if I added to your load. My goal was not to offend you but to wake you up. If I over did it in my wording, again I apologize.

The truth is that I see in these threads otherwise alpha males go beta when faced with cheating. Cheating by its very nature undermines you as a person. Beta is the worst thing that you can do in this situation.

As for never starting a thread, it is because my issues seem tame and boring by comparison with what I see on these boards. After being married for many years to the love of my life, I discovered this board while looking to see if there were things that we were not doing, and initially just read and learned ("His Needs Her Needs" was the best thing that I learned about BTW). Because my parents got divorced due to my father cheating, I got sucked into posting advice here.

Again sorry if I added to your load. Be well. I hope that it works out for you.


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

No hard feelings, TRy. I've dealing with the "man up" crap in my head the whole time. But walking away does not feel like the right thing. I feel like my house was on fire and now I need to go throught the wreckage, see if there is anything that can be saved, and decide if I should rebuild or move away. glad things are going well for you and your wife. I've seen the book mentioned several times and will be ordering it tonight.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

TRy's advice was actually spot on. When dealing with affairs you have to play hardball or all your work attempting to save your marriage ends up enabling the affair.

She cheated and thats a dealbreaker for most people and for good reason. What she did was the ultimate form of disrespect so its going to cost you some of your dignity to stay, more so if you act like the nice guy. You basically reward her for cheating by being a better husband and not having her suffer any consequences.

Today it might not seem that bad but a year from now you may regret rolling over for her. 

Sometimes to save the marriage, you have to walk away. If it can be saved she will fight tooth and nail to keep you from leaving. The more work you do, the less she will do, keep that in mind.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> Today it might not seem that bad but a year from now you may regret rolling over for her.
> 
> Sometimes to save the marriage, you have to walk away. If it can be saved she will fight tooth and nail to keep you from leaving. The more work you do, the less she will do, keep that in mind.


 Well said Juan. 

You are in the fog of despair Doc. The love of your life has shown you that she had definite thoughts of trading in her comfortable Cadillac husband for a sexy Ferrari OM. Do not sacrifice yourself respect, even for an accomplished woman like her. In many ways, you look at her with the same awe and admiration that she has when she looks at him. 



> After a year of doing this I expected that they had screwed their brains out lots of times. But after all the lying finally being discovered, she has been very good about coming clean, and I believe her that the physical contact was minimal. For me, whether they had sex or not is not the main issue.


Here's where I take issue with your thread of conciousness. In fact when I read this I wanted to reach through the internet and lay a 2x4 up next your skull. This comment is horsesh*t and you know it. No way on any planet in this galaxy would any male who is honest with himself place kissing and sex on the same plane. If it makes you feel better to tell yourself this, then physician heal thyself, but you know, deep down, your soul isn't buying it. 

Stand up for yourself, your feelings, your integrity! You are worth more than this!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

No mind movies? Total denial & rug sweeping. Its the BS fog alright.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How did you find out? How deep was the EA? Do you have access to their communication?

How did you confirm that she was honest after she was lying all this time.

The length some WS go trickle truthing and covering up their affairs is astonishing. Every spouse who is betrayed thinks that their SO's affair is a unique case and their So is different. 

Have you considered that her unwillingness to work on R and how attributing that you cannot forgive her, is actually her at a subconscious level not willing to work on the marriage and thus justify the end of the marriage and still blame it on you? (We divorce since he could not forgive me)


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> Have you considered that her unwillingness to work on R and how attributing that you cannot forgive her, is actually her at a subconscious level not willing to work on the marriage and thus justify the end of the marriage and still blame it on you? (We divorce since he could not forgive me)


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


Warlock has an excellent point. If the wife is the world class competitor that Doc says she is, then she know all about mental games and how to play them.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> As part of my dealing with this pain and in an attempt to regain some of my self respect, I made it clear to her that I am a better man with greater integrity and a stronger character than him. She knows I am judging his actions, and I have been crystal clear on my feelings about hers. But she can't believe I could possibly want her back after I say those things about him, that she then applies directly to herself.


This passage sort of stuck in my head too and i had to go back and read it.

The wife seems to be associating Doc's feelings about the OM with herself, which implies she has a profound, emotional connection to the OM; to the point where she is unconsciously defending the dirtbag. 

This isn't just an EA or infatuation, there is love involved here.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't read it that way. My interpretation of that is that if Roc has spoken badly about OM and what a jerk he is for interfering in their marriage (and the truth is, the OM/OW always get slammed by the BS), she now views herself in the same light (a scumbag) because she is the one who is married to him and betrayed him. With that said, I do find it hard to believe that a 1 or 2 year long EA only had 1 kiss but she could be telling the truth. They should go to MC and she must absolutely, positively never have any contact with the OM if she wants the marriage. An EA can be so addiciting. Especially one that has gone on this long. Like Sig said, just one contact can cause a spark and things can avalanche. As a woman who had an EA, I can tell you this is true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> They should go to MC and she must absolutely, positively never have any contact with the OM if she wants the marriage. An EA can be so addiciting. Especially one that has gone on this long. Like Sig said, just one contact can cause a spark and things can avalanche. As a woman who had an EA, I can tell you this is true


In any other circumstance I would agree, but Doc has told us about this sport she is involved with, and that she may have a shot at the Olympics. That's no small thing. Her preparations are going to bring her into contact with this guy, there is no way around it. 

Man that is a tough corner to be in. I


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

The tough love here has indeed been tough, but has also been very helpful. My posts reflect free flow of thought; I haven't been editing them to present myself in any particular light. Damn straight I'm in a fog. In the four hours I've been awake this morning I've swung between determined confidence and distraught crying so many times it's amazing. I don't think my situation is unique at all. But there can be no argument that the people involved are unique. We all are products of our individual life experiences, and while many of us have been through similar life events, how we experience and interpret those events, and how we react and respond to them will be different.

I don't defend anything that she did. She asked me last night if I believe you can choose who you love. I don't, but we get to choose pretty much everything else to some extent and have to live with the consequences of those choices. I know there was one moment when she found herself faced with the realization that she loved him, and had lots of choices of what to do. She made a selfish, cowardly choice and perpetuated that with lies for a long time. And I look at that with my eyes wide open. I don't equate kissing with sex. If there is real attraction, whether or not there is love, some physical affection usually follows. I can live with the images of them kissing, but it's not easy. I would not be able to live with the images of anything else. I have never expressed that to her, and she knows that I have always been of the mind that an affair is an affair. People distinguish in their posts EA or PA. Because of what I said above, I really don't think that distinguishing is helpful. And whether anyone else reading these posts believes it, I do believe they did not have sex. And that, to me, is a sign of restraint and conflicted emotions. She is still dealing with conflicted emotions, and I am giving her time to sort out those emotions so we don't arrive at a decision we know we are likely to regret later. 

As far as her sport, she is not sure she can maintain her commitment to me if she sees him again, and she is grappling with the idea that to make our marriage survive, she has to abandon something that, like my work does for me, gives her great joy and fulfillment, as well as her very real dream of competing in the olympics. I don't feel badly or blame myself for her being in that position, but I certainly don't envy her.

My parents divorced when I was a young child and the whole thing was a mess. They had joint custody and lived in the same town. They saw each other multiple times a week and were able to fan the fires of their hate and sadness throughout our childood, and that had profound impacts on me and my siblings. So I'm looking ahead at either working really hard to rebuild and keep my marriage together with a woman who I have deeply loved but who betrayed me, or work really hard through a divorce and beyond to protect and raise my daughter in a way that she survives this with as few scars as possible. But as I've said earlier, for all the promises I made to myself during my life about what I would not let happen, I am not going to hold together a loveless and dysfunctional marriage "for the sake of my daughter". That's lying to myself and doing the exact opposite of what I need and want to do for her.


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

Another point I forgot...She has not defended herself or him at any time. She has offered no excuses for what she did. She hears me say harsh things about him and knows that I could say the same things about her and be right, and that is making her recognize things about herself and what she has done that are very difficult for her to deal with. She has to live with the decisions she has made and what she has done to me and our family, and part of that is examining and living with what she has allowed herself to become. I've told her that if we go our separate ways, she needs to get some real professional help for herself, or things will go very badly for her. And she is starting to accept that.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

> she is not sure she can maintain her commitment to me if she sees him again


I don't want to say it... But she is not committed to the marriage. This pretty much signals the end of your marriage.


One more question, How did you find it?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

So, do you think right now she is trying to pick between you and her affair partner? Have you asked her that?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ROCDOC said:


> Another point I forgot...She has not defended herself or him at any time. She has offered no excuses for what she did. She hears me say harsh things about him and knows that I could say the same things about her and be right, and that is making her recognize things about herself and what she has done that are very difficult for her to deal with. She has to live with the decisions she has made and what she has done to me and our family, and part of that is examining and living with what she has allowed herself to become. I've told her that if we go our separate ways, she needs to get some real professional help for herself, or things will go very badly for her. And she is starting to accept that.


You do realize that people in healthcare tend towards codependency - right?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Did she read the instructions for the wayward spouse?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Exactly. When someone tells you they are not sure they can maintain their commitment to you if they see X again, then that really says it all. Also...her asking you if you believe you can choose who you love... does not bode well..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

She asked me last night if I believe you can choose who you love.

I am p!ssed off at this statement.That statement reeks of selfishness and entitlement.

You cannot choose who you are attracted to. But you can definitely choose who you love. You can choose not to betray the trust of your husband. You can choose not lie. You can choose to separate. You choose to be honest.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> As far as her sport, she is not sure she can maintain her commitment to me if she sees him again, and she is grappling with the idea that to make our marriage survive, she has to abandon something that, like my work does for me, gives her great joy and fulfillment, as well as her very real dream of competing in the olympics. I don't feel badly or blame myself for her being in that position, but I certainly don't envy her.


That is you answer right there. If she comes in contact with him, you can rest assured she will hook up with him. She is deep in the fog. 

What is sad is, if he is that big of a star in the sport, and if he is the player you say he is, then your wife is just loaning herself out to be a member of a harem with a bunch of other starstruck women. Too bad she's too blind with lust to see this. 

Doc, I feel so bad for you. My kneejerk reaction is to tell you to walk in to wherever she is and tell her you are willing to let her go, and that she will decide her destiny. If that detiny is to pursue her dream and possibly go be with this man, then she she should go for it. You, on the other hand will, also pursue whatever it is that will offer you and your daughter the best future possible, even if that means she is not in the picture. 

Its not like you are going to be able to stop her anyway. I do believe she has already formulated an exit strategy, so you need to be formulating yours.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

ROCDOC said:


> I know there was one moment when she found herself faced with the realization that she loved him, and had lots of choices of what to do.





ROCDOC said:


> As far as her sport, she is not sure she can maintain her commitment to me if she sees him again, and she is grappling with the idea that to make our marriage survive, she has to abandon something that, like my work does for me, gives her great joy and fulfillment, as well as her very real dream of competing in the olympics.


 She is the one that cheated yet she is the one that gets to choose what happens next with you and your child's life. I stated in an early post that it was all about control and right now she has it. The trouble is that she has already proven to be selfish and that she does not have you or your child's best interest at heart when she makes her decisions.

I fear that since she is in love with the OM and since the sport defines her as person, that you are at a disadvantage here. Truth is she already has another option to you that she feels is a good one. This is why she is not fighting to save the marraige. Thus she would not be that upset if you dumped her right now as she could tell everyone that you left her when all she did was kiss the other man. 

Deep down inside you may know all this. By her not being willing to fight for the marraige, you are in a no win situation if staying in the marriage is winning. Although the odds are not good no matter what you do, you need to do bold action to improve your odds. You need to change the rules. One thing to do is to sit her down and ask her to make a full commitment to the marraige right now. Tell her that no decision is a declension not to choose you and that you will act accordingly. Only after she makes such a commitment do you have a chance.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Has she written and sent a no contact letter to the OM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

She has not yet committed to a path that would require a no contact letter. She did read the instructions and thought it was very good. 

I'm surprised at how hard it is to read other people's words that so clearly express the thoughts and fears that have been in my head these last several days. It somehow changes how those words sound, and makes the thoughts and fears very real and not just something swimming in the "fog". I have been able to get past the initial sting of some of them and take all of the insight and advice here to heart. I never really expected to get so much help from strangers. Thanks.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Until she commits to reconciliation - which mandates a NC letter - you have to play hard ball. Read up on the 180, it's what you need to do. If you make yourself available before she commits you allow yourself to be plan b for her. You also create a situation which possibly allows her to continue to cake eat. Believe me, any and every cheater will cake eat as long as their spouse will put up with it. You've got to force her hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> Until she commits to reconciliation - which mandates a NC letter - you have to play hard ball. Read up on the 180, it's what you need to do. If you make yourself available before she commits you allow yourself to be plan b for her. You also create a situation which possibly allows her to continue to cake eat. Believe me, any and every cheater will cake eat as long as their spouse will put up with it. You've got to force her hand.


Good point.

To add to this:

The 180 is meant to help you gain emotional independency from your wife. That is, doing the exercises will allow you to disengage yourself from the outcome, whatever that outcome is. Right now you are focusing on outcome instead of focusing on yourself. You need to be taking care of yourself and your daughter, and quit carrying your wife's burdens. Like everyone here has unanimously agreed on, she has already begun emotionally disengaging herself from you. She has been doing this for a long time, evere since the affair started, and now you are left high and dry with no support system. Try to hold on to her and she is going to drag you along like a fast horse. 

Work the 180, and it will help you focus your thoughts. Your wife may begin to see you change, she might notice your growing idependence from her, and maybe, just maybe, a little worry will creep in and pull her back in your direction. But this method is not eant to save marriages, it is to help the BS prepare for the possibility of separation and divorce.

The 180 is there to help you come to the point where, regardless of whatever decision she makes, you will be ready for whatever eventuality, and you will know that you can have a life after her and without her.


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

Ahhh, the 180. In some ways ironic. We'd had some discussion about problems in our relationship and ways that we needed to examine them and might address them in the weeks leading up to me discovering proof of the affiar. My spending time examining myself and what I wanted from myself and the relationship is how I ended up finding this website. I was frustrated about lack of mutual communication, appreciation, desire, etc. (think I can explain those now) and was very intrigued by and learned a lot from ideas of "warm and cold" participants in relationships and balancing the thermostat. I read about the 180. I started changing things with the goal of improving me and hopefully improving our relationship. And damn if I didn't get pretty quick results on both fronts. I was really motivated to keep going and was finally feeling positive and optimistic about things again. 

Then Monday morning I woke up and, like I was touched on the shoulder, I felt compelled to check her e-mail. I don't have her passwords, but she used to use Outlook and her mail was pulled onto the desktop. I have no idea why I checked; I had done it a couple times a year ago when I had reasons to suspect something and came up empty then. But when I checked last week, there were two e-mails with threads of correspondence between them from June (!) that didn't get completely dumped from the trash. And that's how I found out. The 180 requires that you stand on two feet and be strong and determined, and it required me to completely reverse some of my behaviors. I forgot about all of that after I was sucker punched and lay on the floor unable to catch my breath. But in the last couple days I remembered what I had started working on then and why I was making the changes, and I'm getting back on track.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't:

If you do let her go, she will eventually end up with the OM and your marriage will be over. She will shift the blame for her adultery onto you because you would not follow her and support her desire to fulfill her dreams and the OM was the only one who was there for her and believed in her. 

If you refuse to let her go, and force her to give up her Olympic dreams so that she will have no more contact with the OM, she will hate you for it and the marriage will eventually end, and she will blame you for destroying the marriage because you were possessive and controlling. 

....Sucks to be you right now. 

Anybody on this thread have any good ideas of how Doc can get through this mess as unscathed as possible?


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

How deep was the affair? All you have is the two conversations and her confession. Were the conversations detailed enough?

How did you come to the conclusion that she was being honest(esp when she was denying any affair the whole time?)

Have you considered that you might be in denial about the whole thing? Could it be possible that she is biding time with you until the OM is ready to take her?

You say that you two are devastated? Nothing she did or how she is reacting now seems to suggest otherwise. Maybe what she is feeling is guilt. 



> She asked me last night if I believe you can choose who you love.


That statement reeks of selfishness and entitlement.

You cannot choose who you are attracted to. But you can definitely choose who you love. Love take nurturing.You can choose not to betray the trust of your husband. You can choose not lie. You choose to be honest.

Are you happy being her 3rd or 4th choice in life? And the fall back safe option that will always be there for her?


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't know how deep the affair was. I only found a handful of e-mails back and forth and they were pretty junior high...lots of XOXOXOXO's and "heart you"s. I do think that she is devastated, and I do think that a lot of that comes from guilt and having to look at what she did. She has not said she made a mistake, or that she wishes she had not done this. The absence of those statements has raised serious doubts in my mind. She has apologized for making bad decisions and really messing things up. I told her those are pretty empty statements and really don't convey any remorse or regret. But she is stubborn as hell about expressing emotions, and can imagine that she is feeling these things but can't swallow her pride to admit them. I told her today that she has to start getting used to sharing her emotions, and that if she can't start making changes like that, we need to quit. That's a big part of what has been missing from our relationship for the last few years and what I've wanted to change. So I've been patient enough and if changes aren't made now, I'm not waiting any longer.

I think (doubt others will believe) that she is really looking at this relationship and its consequences for the first time. She has never come back at me and said that she did this because of something I did or did not do. She has so far not been able to answer (or maybe has just not answered) my question about what her relationship with him offers her that I do not, and I think that it is sinking in that it's their sport that connects them most strongly, and without that there might not be much left to hold them together. We live in the northeast US, he lives in the northern midwest more than 1000 miles away. If we divorced and did not have a child, she wouldn't move there for lots of reasons. But she also knows she can't take our daughter, and she would not take her from the life she has here anyway. And I think she knows this guy would run from any suggestion that he move here. 

And for the first time in her life she has been faced with the idea of having to stop competing and all give up all that goes with it. I'm not sure she has ever considered that she was going to have to give it up and build a life without it some day anyway.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

She has not said that she regrets and is sorry for the affair and all the lies and deception. Only that she regrets the pain it has caused you.

She asked if "we choose who we love?" Translation - she is in love with the OM. 

She does not think she can commit or remain committed to you and the marriage if she sees him again.

She questions your ability to forgive and commit to her. This is her shifting the blame to you the lack of hope for reconciliation.

Your wife is in love with another man and does not value you, your marriage or your family on a par with her sport or her love for OM.

I see little hope for the marriage. Prepare yourself mentally for D


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## ROCDOC (Jan 16, 2012)

Whether or not she ever says the words to me, her behavior the last year and the last week indicate that she loves him. But I don't think either of them will make the sacrifices to really be together. I am prepared to hear that it's over and to move on with divorce. I'm not looking forward to going through the very difficult realities of separating our lives and everything else we have and all of the pain that goes with that. At this point, that might all be easy if it did not include discussions of custody of the most beautiful 5 year old little girl in the world, who has no (very little) idea that any of this is going on and that her world is about to break apart. I'm her father and i could not protect her from this, and I am struggling with that more than anything else right now.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

The situation is much dire than you initially posted it to be. Looks to me like she is hiding some big news.

Have you considered talking to this guy? I would like to think that it was your wife that was pursuing him. Ask him about the state of their relationship. Your wife at this point isn't going to stop the affair or give you anymore incriminating details. Her statements are pretty selfish and is pretty much into the affair. This is what the people around here call the fog. Maybe talking to him might just give you the info that you need to R or D. Cause, you are most likely going to lose your marriage/self-respect the way you are going now. 

I understand that you are not mentally prepared for a divorce. But sometimes you need to choose the least bad option. Consider what other options you have.

Being slowly cuckolded in a marriage where you wife is openly in love with another man. 

Staying together but paranoid if your wife is still in love with him. 

Nightmares about how deep the affair was. 

If your wife is staying with you as a fall back option(after she realizes that the OM is not a long term prospect.)

Read the stories around. The man pleading and begging for reconciliation almost never works. You can only reconcile if both of you are into it. By planning to divorce the reality of what she is doing will hit her hard in the face. She can then decide if the OM is still worth it. Without any consequences other than a few tears and empty statements, she has no reason to change whatever she is doing. What you got was the tip of an iceberg.

Is it possible that she still in contact with him through some different email? Would it matter?


I think you would have received better advice if you had posted the complete information in the first post.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

It is important to note a serious problem in this thread. You really don't know how deep this "affair" is. What kind of phone has she been using this past year?

There is a huge difference in love and fantasy. Fantasy is what most of the threads here turn out to be. Fantasy doesn't wake up every morning with a family but wakes up in an imaginary perfect world. 

A long distance relationship is the hardest type of relationship to keep going. Distance makes the heart grow fonder. However, cruel experience teaches us that that gets old and lonely fast, making us vulnerable to all kinds of actions that we would normally not consider in a million years.

How much of the time is she away and for how long at a time? Shamwow's threads shows us exactly how bad a travelling, lonely wife can change. Being around othe people instead of the family we love infuences us way more than we realize or admit. In a perfect world blah blah balh, ain't goona happen. People need closeness if the spouse isn't there physically or mentally someone great or even some dirtbag will do in a pinch.

Everyone here knows exactly what the other man wants from an attractive female athlete. " He apparently has had other affairs, a point I don't think my wife was aware of. " It is imperative for you to talk to his ex immediately and find out everything you can. Possibly, having her talk to your wife. Everyone now knows what coaches can do with the athletes they are supposed to be mentoring. Many stories have come out in recent years about the abuse some of our athletes have undergone at the hands of their coaches. 


As for your wife. If she has a chance to be in the Olympics it is your job/duty to make sure you do everything in the world to help her make it happen. Being an athlete and having a chance to be an Olympian can not be something anyone that cared for that athlete would ever come close to suggesting they quit. My son has been a wonderful athlete. Their whole lives have been spent preparing for the nest step.

The stories about sex at the last olympics were mind blowing. Didn't Canada have to supply the athletes with 90000 condoms.

You are a doctor, the question isn't whether she should abandon her quest , but are you going to go where she goes and support her. It doesn't sound like you are supporting her now. I'm sure the OM is giving her all the "support" in the world. You have a lifetime occupation. She has a very limited time left in sports. You, her number one fan by far, must change your life for the next (very) few years and concentrate on whatever you have to do to be with her and make her dreams come true. When you are with her, you show her how much you love her and provide an onsite,proud,manly c0ckblock. At this time in your marriage, your career isn't in the top 5 most important goals of your family.

I expect she has cast her net for support and unwittingly drawn in a serial predator. Help make her dreams come true instead of f*cking them up. That's what family is all about.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Does your wife have an income or job? If she cannot support herself she may have to give up the sport and return to the reality of having to make a living. When this reality hits her, she may try to play nice so you can continue to support her during her training. Don't fall for it.

I know you are concerned with how this will affect your child and rightly so. I can tell you that parents who stay together out of convenience or "for the sake of the children" end up doing more harm than good to the kids. Children sense the resentment and tense atmosphere even if you hide it well. They still know and it will have an adverse effect.

And by the way. The crap about "we just kissed" is affair speak for a full blown sexual relationship. Hard to accept and think of, but it is a fairly standard statement cheaters use to try and minimize the facts. This explains everything about her current behavior.

You are right that they have not thought about plans of a future together. Cheaters rarely think past their next meeting or how to deceive their spouse.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

chapparal said:


> You are a doctor, the question isn't whether she should abandon her quest , but are you going to go where she goes and support her. It doesn't sound like you are supporting her now. I'm sure the OM is giving her all the "support" in the world. You have a lifetime occupation. She has a very limited time left in sports. You, her number one fan by far, must change your life for the next (very) few years and concentrate on whatever you have to do to be with her and make her dreams come true. When you are with her, you show her how much you love her and provide an onsite,proud,manly c0ckblock. At this time in your marriage, your career isn't in the top 5 most important goals of your family.


 I strongly disagree. Giving up his career to follow her around like a puppy dog is a bad idea. It will make him look weak and make him less attractive to his wife. He cannot compete on the other man's home turf and should not even try to. Doing this is the exact opposite of doing the 180.

Be yourself and let her decide. You have been a good provider, husband and father. Her cheating is the only reason that her career in sports is even an issue. He should not have to change who he is because she is a cheater.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

What state are you in?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Interesting situation. Unless the WW has financial means of her own, I willing to bet that when she sees the (financial) rug pulled out from her under feet, she will reconsider (and negatively so) the benefits of her affair with this other athlete. I don't know if that makes for a good relationship going forward.

This is the unfairness of life. We're told to follow our dreams....and guess what the money will follow and it won't all the time. Every athlete knows that their years (days) are numbered. 

It might even be the reason why this athlete wife married a doctor but has now just gotten a bit a full of herself.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> gotten a bit a full of herself.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Athletes and artists are the most selfish people there are.


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## river rat (Jan 20, 2012)

ROC, listen to these folks as to how to present the 180, which is effective, and how to implement NC, which is absolutely necessary if you are going to be able to ever reestablish trust. Read David Rico's book "Daring to Trust." Some of the answers as to why this happened reside in both of your personalities- the physician and the type of spouse to whom they are attracted. Look around you. Many of your colleagues are divorced, much more than the average would predict. It has to do w/ the job and the type of personality that it takes to get where you are. You may find it difficult to accept counseling, but I believe it would help you- not just to mend your relationship, but to mend you. A mentor, who was a counselor told me 6 mos into my marriage, "Son, you don't have any idea how much trouble you're in." That was true.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

Doc, I just read your other thread. In it you stated:



> I found out a year ago that my she had had an emotional affair with the man she was dating before I started dating her in college. We are both 36. During the last year of trying to recover and rebuild things, I became suspicious of her relationship with another male friend. I just found out she has been having an emotional affair with him.


Just so I have this straight, the king athlete stud that she is pining away for now is not her first EA? Or is this guy the boyfriend from college? I'm confused.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

Hello.... ROCDOC.... You still there?


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

Ok, wow, was all I could say....

As a WS who had a brief P/A E/A, I just can't believe that she would be so willing to give it up, and show any remorse so quickly, like 4 days???

The typical script of what happens is that the ws immediately goes into lying mode, I did everything I could on D day to hide the truth of my affair. I gaslighted, blameshifted, and I did this for several weeks until all the truth was out. I would cry and say that I was sorry, back then I wasn't really sorry, I was still in the fog, and really it only lifted months later. And at that point I was not able to recognize internally the disgust I had within myself, this only became a process. I was still high on the affair with little self-reflection.

My husband was a smart man though, he knew I was pining away for another man, he called me on it. He knew I was lying, so he'd ask the same questions over and over in different ways. He'd see a look on my face, and know exactly what was going on, and even if he didn't, he'd question me about it.

The fact that it went on for a year only means that the withdrawls will be all that much stronger.


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## CH (May 18, 2010)

ROCDOC said:


> Whether or not she ever says the words to me, her behavior the last year and the last week indicate that she loves him.


That alone should seal the deal of what needs to be done. In your heart you know it, in her eyes you see it but your daughter is the only thing holding you back now. Because you want to spare her the pain that you and your siblings went through with your parent's divorce.

The real question now is, how long you're gonna let her sit on the fence while you bust your behind trying to make this marriage work.


RD, your story reminds me of another member's story on this board, but the roles are reversed. The board member is the cheater, had an EA, tried hard to push his wife away to make her leave him and could not understand after so much how she could still be with him. He tried to R route but all it proved to him was that he was gone already from the marriage and was only going through the motions to hopefully find that spark again. In the end, all it did was make life miserable for him and her, he wants out so badly but cannot because he still cares for his wife as a person but no longer loves her as a wife. So they're both stuck in limbo land.

I don't want to say this but have you truly sat your wife down and just laid it out to her, asking her if she just wants out or is she only trying out of some guilt for the marriage she used to have but no longer wants? The ones who want their spouses back usually bend over backwards and bust their behinds to make things work again. Those on the fence are usually checked out and gone from the marriage (not all but most) and only try R from the guilt of the A.

Like someone posted you're screwed whatever choice you make at this point. Let her have her dream but it will most likely doom your marriage. Make her give up her dream and it will doom your marriage for sure.

Wishing the best for you and whatever choice you make. I hope everything does work out between you and your wife but she needs to be kicked off of that fence one way or another.


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

I think ROCDOC has signed off guys...


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Doc, when a cheater says we kissed it is normally code for "WE HAD SEX". When I found out about my WS affair she told me and my two sons that they only kissed. My wife's oldest brother (he is a pastor with lots of insight) told me that when says we only kissed it is code for we had sex. He was correct. My wife came clean (partially) and said they only had sex the first time they met. She told me that the following times they sat at a car wash and talked about how bad they felt. Her older brother told me if that is the truth then his sister is the first person in history who did not have sex on the following times together. When I confronted her about the 6th time she finally gave me all the details of where, when, etc. I laid the law down and said you either tell me the whole truth or I am walking. I was so drunk I ended up in the E.R. (not good) but she sat down and told me the entire story and I have been able to verify most of it. Just some thoughts. 

You are getting trickle truth from your wife.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

R...........

If I am doing the math right your wife is in her mid to late 30s.........is her winter team sports curling...not many winter team sports, if any, have women her age peaking to olympic/world class levels. Is her ablity to make the team part of her fantasy life?


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Maybe he lives under a bridge somewhere. Yeah, mid to late 30s in a team sport for the olympics. Womens bobsledding?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Give him a little time. I think he is realizing that she holds her sport and the OM above her husband and child. The consequences have not been enough to remove her fog. But it also sounds like ROCDOC is starting to come to a realization. I know he loves her. But if she didn't swear off the sport and NC letter the other guy, she still has a foot outside the marriage. Remember, this is her fantasy. She envisions traveling and competing. She has no worries. But that isn't real. Her husband loves and provides for her, and she gets to compete. Rocdoc has sheltered her from the real consequences. As much as he loves her (if he wants any chance) he needs to kick her out, separate finances (he is already thinking this after canceling his investment meeting). And force her to provide for herself, split all expenses. Then how much time will she have for he sport. If Rocdoc can only allow consequence to work in her life. Maybe she will wake up. She lost respect for her husband and this is the result. 

ROCDOC, why do people go to the doctor? Pain. Don't you understand that the pain is what drove the change in their actions so that they went to the doctor. You are defending her from the very thing ("PAIN") that could actually change her actions and drive her to the doctor.......YOU!


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Initfortheduration said:


> Give him a little time. I think he is realizing that she holds her sport and the OM above her husband and child. The consequences have not been enough to remove her fog. But it also sounds like ROCDOC is starting to come to a realization. I know he loves her. But if she didn't swear off the sport and NC letter the other guy, she still has a foot outside the marriage. Remember, this is her fantasy. She envisions traveling and competing. She has no worries. But that isn't real. Her husband loves and provides for her, and she gets to compete. Rocdoc has sheltered her from the real consequences. As much as he loves her (if he wants any chance) he needs to kick her out, separate finances (he is already thinking this after canceling his investment meeting). And force her to provide for herself, split all expenses. Then how much time will she have for he sport. If Rocdoc can only allow consequence to work in her life. Maybe she will wake up. She lost respect for her husband and this is the result.
> 
> ROCDOC, why do people go to the doctor? Pain. Don't you understand that the pain is what drove the change in their actions so that they went to the doctor. You are defending her from the very thing ("PAIN") that could actually change her actions and drive her to the doctor.......YOU!


I disagree having been the father of an exceptional athlete. For one thing he married an athlete and should have known what he was getting into. If he thought they could hold a marriage together with one staying home and the other traveling to compete he was mistaken

She only has a couple of years left. If he stops her from competeing now it would be the same as destroying the dream of her life that she has worked for her entire life. 

IMHO he needs to backoff on his career for two years or so and travel with her as much as necessary and then she needs to retire from her sport after the olympics.

This is assuming everything Rocdoc said is true. There aren't many sports I can think of where teams compete in a regular season and only one team goes to the olympics.


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## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

> I want her back and she can't understand why


Yeah... neither can I.

"_Just kissing_". Whatever helps you sleep at night, buddy.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Initfortheduration said:


> Give him a little time. I think he is realizing that she holds her sport and the OM above her husband and child. The consequences have not been enough to remove her fog. But it also sounds like ROCDOC is starting to come to a realization. I know he loves her. But if she didn't swear off the sport and NC letter the other guy, she still has a foot outside the marriage. Remember, this is her fantasy. She envisions traveling and competing. She has no worries. But that isn't real. Her husband loves and provides for her, and she gets to compete. Rocdoc has sheltered her from the real consequences. As much as he loves her (if he wants any chance) he needs to kick her out, separate finances (he is already thinking this after canceling his investment meeting). And force her to provide for herself, split all expenses. Then how much time will she have for he sport. If Rocdoc can only allow consequence to work in her life. Maybe she will wake up. She lost respect for her husband and this is the result.
> 
> ROCDOC, why do people go to the doctor? Pain. Don't you understand that the pain is what drove the change in their actions so that they went to the doctor. You are defending her from the very thing ("PAIN") that could actually change her actions and drive her to the doctor.......YOU!


Until the pain of change becomes less then the pain of staying the same, people will not change.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

chapparal said:


> I disagree having been the father of an exceptional athlete. For one thing he married an athlete and should have known what he was getting into. If he thought they could hold a marriage together with one staying home and the other traveling to compete he was mistaken
> 
> She only has a couple of years left. If he stops her from competeing now it would be the same as destroying the dream of her life that she has worked for her entire life.
> 
> ...


Absolutely he needs to follow her around chasing her dream. His career (her frigging piggy bank) needs to be put on hold. As well as their daughter. Then after chasing her around for a couple of years and enabling her selfishness, she will quit and become the wonderful spouse we all know she is. Chapparal, you are emoting because of your own child. This is a completely different situation. Its not following you kid around. Its him following his cheating wife around. A totally beta male plan.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Initfortheduration said:


> Absolutely he needs to follow her around chasing her dream. His career (her frigging piggy bank) needs to be put on hold. As well as their daughter. Then after chasing her around for a couple of years and enabling her selfishness, she will quit and become the wonderful spouse we all know she is. Chapparal, you are emoting because of your own child. This is a completely different situation. Its not following you kid around. Its him following his cheating wife around. A totally beta male plan.


We will just have to agree to disagree. :smthumbup:


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Thorburn said:


> Until the pain of change becomes less then the pain of staying the same, people will not change.


DING DING DING - We have a winner!!! Truer words have never been spoken (well ok.. written).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

chapparal,
This isn't about allowing her to pursue her dream/sport. It actually has nothing to do with that. 

This is about the fact that she has told him that continuing the sport = continuing the affair. She has done so in a clever and understated manner, but that is the message. 

But I have to hand it to her, she is brilliant. Wrapped herself up in olympic glory and asked him: Are you really going to deny me my life's dream? 

She is indeed a clever little monkey. The thing is, there is no way she can actually separate her intense emotional desire to compete, from her intense emotional desire to continue the affair. They are fused and mutually amplifying. 

If this isn't the pinnacle of cake eating I don't know what is. If she really was - all about the sport she could easily:
- Write the NC letter
- Request that her H accompany her to the events where the OM will be present
- Commit to the marriage

Instead she wants to turn him from husband to "financial sponsor" for the 2014 games! 




chapparal said:


> We will just have to agree to disagree. :smthumbup:


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Again, what Olympic Winter team sport has 36 year old women at their peak other than curling, mind you she will be 38 at the next Olympics. Hockey, no (the USA team us already picked) sledding (20 something sprinters), she is not 13 so she is not a figure skater, downhill - no, possible cross country......so we have curling and cross country or cross country related.......if this us a real story then the issue that she is living in a fog if she is still holding to a Olympic dream....
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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> Again, what Olympic Winter team sport has 36 year old women at their peak other than curling, mind you she will be 38 at the next Olympics. Hockey, no (the USA team us already picked) sledding (20 something sprinters), she is not 13 so she is not a figure skater, downhill - no, possible cross country......so we have curling and cross country or cross country related.......if this us a real story then the issue that she is living in a fog if she is still holding to a Olympic dream....


Wish I had asked him right off the bat what sport she was in. 

Curling, cross country and biathalon (ski and shoot) are the only team sports I can think of that would have a woman that age competing. Curling isn't what you would call a sexy sport. If the OM is such a ladies' man, then he must be pulling from a small pool of females.... females who like ice, brooms and stones with handles on them.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Has to be curling, cross country and biathlon women top 10 is an easy google search - none over 31 who have a chance to make team.
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## nicky1 (Jan 20, 2012)

to stay together bcos of a child is the wrong reason, noble but not really effective, the children will cope they always do, but when they ask why mummy and daddy dont live together anymore and are told the truth as they must be they will understand in time, the effects of affairs never end


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## spudster (Jan 11, 2012)

> Has to be curling, cross country and biathlon women top 10 is an easy google search - none over 31 who have a chance to make team.


Googed USA Womens Curling Team, and really could find little but a page regarding some big North American final in Canada back in mid part of the month. Team Merk they are called. The captain could be her, but the aother three are college age girls.

Checked out the mens team too. I have to say the guys are strappin....


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Curling Association lists their female members - some of the top women contenders are in their 50-60's .... How cool (pun intended) is that! Being a contender for the Olympic Curling Team at that age, grandkids must love it.
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