# Wife of 26 years:



## doublep

My have and I have been together for 26 years, since we were both 15 years old. We have had good and bad times. Recently in the last two years we have had a traumatic experience in our lives. Without going into detail I was accused of something I did not do in my business. 

We lost everything, our home, business and not to mention the trauma it caused on our kids. My wife and I are like best friends. We do everything together, we are that couple that everyone says they want to be just like us.

I have had a terrible time the last two years. Fighting so hard against the accusations against me are almost paralyzing. But I had my rock with me, my wife. 

About 5-6 months ago my wife thought she was getting early menopause, we are both 40. She said she felt different. Then a few months back she got real sexual, almost over the top. Then a bombshell this week... In this worst of times, she says she loves me but is not in love with me anymore.

I was floored. I don't know how to read this? Is it the trauma? Menopause? It crushed my soul. To say I am devastated is an under statement. Yet, I am trying so hard to stay logical. I was going to move out but we have two young kids, 15 and 9. She asked why I was so desperate to leave? That confused me, I said to her "You just said you dont love me" am I supposed to stay? 

Then we spent the day talking, its not another man, I know this. Not because I am blind but because she would have no time and we are always together here or working. We are so intertwined into each others lives I know its not that. 

She cried and didn't understand why she didn't have that in love feeling for me anymore. Now, there have been times in this 26 year relationship that I have not always felt "in love" but in my heart I was with her, would never leave and it came back.

We talked and she was saying some things that did not make sense to me. She still wanted to support me in my troubles with the business and legal stuff. Long story short we agreed to stay in the home for the kids and live as partners for the family.

She know I love her more than life. When I asked her if this loss of love is permanent and if so, I must move on. She couldnt answer the question. She said literally "I cant answer that".

What am I to make of all this, she does this at the worst possible time and to outsiders like my family and friends she will look like a monster. She has already to a select few that know about it. To do this to your husband at this time of need is pure evil. That it was some are saying.

Could this be menopause? Stress? She also stated that maybe she cant take watching me endure all these traumas and its a protect measure for her, a way out of bad things? I dont see or think that way so it's hard for me.

If anyone has any suggestions, experience, opinions, I could use them. I am crushed and dont really know what to do.


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## wtf2012

I know your pain. 

Believe her. She is telling you who she is.

Probably another man. If not she wants there to be one.

If I was you, I would take control of the situation. You should act in your own best interest. She has fired the first shot across the bow. You had better catch up to where she is.

I wish someone would have told me his when my life said she "loved but not in love." usually that is just he warning you get before she destroys your family
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

She is checking out. She probably started checking out when all the sh!t hit the fan in your business. That means she is way ahead of you in detachment. 

All you can do is protect yourself. Don't listen to her words. Watch her actions. If her actions indicate she is ready to bail then you need to make some preemptive actions. 

Go see a lawyer and get the rundown on what to expect if the marriage hoes south or if she leaves. 

And by the way, she could be having a texting/online affair right under your nose and you wouldn't notice it. Most unsuspecting spouses don't until it's too late.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoF

I don't see why you are so upset at her about this. She is being honest with you about her feelings.

I know it hurts, deeply but you have to appreciate her honesty.

If you love her, let her go. Once the love is lost.....it's over.


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## doublep

DoF said:


> I don't see why you are so upset at her about this. She is being honest with you about her feelings.
> 
> I know it hurts, deeply but you have to appreciate her honesty.
> 
> If you love her, let her go. Once the love is lost.....it's over.


I am not upset at her, I am upset in general. I don't know what this all means. She doesn't hide her phone from me or computer or anything. But I am sure I am probably being willfully blind...


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## anchorwatch

If she doesn't want to be rash, that maybe a good sign.

What have you done about this situation?

Has either of you spoken about MC? 

Have you done any reading? 

How are you living financially? Do you think you can recover?


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## doublep

anchorwatch said:


> If she doesn't want to be rash, that maybe a good sign.
> 
> What have you done about this situation?
> 
> Has either of you spoken about MC?
> 
> Have you done any reading?
> 
> How are you living financially? Do you think you can recover?


I don't really know, this is all new territory for me. When I said I would leave she was shocked by that. Saying "Why are you so desperate to leave'? I said why would I stay when I am not loved?

There were weird things leading up to this... The stress of my situation, her thinking she was in early stages of Menopause, then she got real sexual, then depressed, now this.... Do I think this is her imbalance? 

To hear the one you love most in life tell you they no longer love you is heart tearing and uncharted waters for me. Again, unless she has a texting affair going on, she literally works and comes home, Just like me. We are always together.


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## anchorwatch

doublep said:


> I don't really know, this is all new territory for me. When I said I would leave she was shocked by that. Saying "Why are you so desperate to leave'? I said why would I stay when I am not loved?
> 
> There were weird things leading up to this... The stress of my situation, her thinking she was in early stages of Menopause, then she got real sexual, then depressed, now this.... Do I think this is her imbalance?
> 
> To hear the one you love most in life tell you they no longer love you is heart tearing and uncharted waters for me. Again, unless she has a texting affair going on, she literally works and comes home, Just like me. We are always together.


You really didn't answer my questions. I assume you haven't and your looking for suggestions then. You're not the first couple to lose themselves to parenting and careers, only to find out when that was gone, they forgot how to be lovers. 

Here are some links you can start to browse to get insight into the dynamics of a relationship and formulate a plan of action to move forward. I suggest you get the books and start reading. 

Let us know your thoughts on what you've read then. 

A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have.

Seek out a good marriage counselor, asap. 

Marital Problems? This Is Your Help Center ? Marriage Guardian


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## doublep

anchorwatch said:


> You really didn't answer my questions. I assume you haven't and your looking for suggestions then. You're not the first couple to lose themselves to parenting and carriers, only to find out when that was gone, they forgot how to be lovers.
> 
> Here are some links you can start to browse. I suggest you get the books and start reading.
> 
> A Summary of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts
> 
> Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits.
> 
> Seek out a good marriage counselor, asap.
> 
> Marital Problems? This Is Your Help Center ? Marriage Guardian


Well, Financially we are really good, now. She just started working again 3-4 weeks ago. So, together we are all set there.

We have not seen a MC.

Doing some reading and you have to be careful with the internet because there is good advice but a lot of revenge minded and hurt people as well. I guess my issue mainly is why after all these years would she do this at the worst possible time, when I need her most?

Seems evil and I almost view her as a monster. Yet, I love her more than life itself.


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## bandit.45

Get you and your wife into MC. 

Read the books. 

Have her go to the doctor and get her hormone levels checked. Insist on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

Why? 

Why is anyone not ready to see what's right in front of their face? They were preoccupied with life and thought there would always be time for that. They weren't paying attention to what was really important and had their priorities mixed up. They thought their partner could endure alone for someone else's priorities. Even if they knew something wasn't right, they didn't know what to look for or do about it. 

The books recommended by most members here are from some of the best authors. Do the reads, you'll get a better idea of what happened. Here's another that may give you insight.

Walk-Away Wife Syndrome


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## anchorwatch

BTW, do your due diligence to eliminate a third party. Discretely!


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## doublep

anchorwatch said:


> BTW, do your due diligence to eliminate a third party. Discretely!



If you mean an affair, there isn't one. I have access to all her phone records, texts, data, PC, etc... I do all the bills and home stuff. There is nothing and she has always been a very honorable person.

Yes I know that sounds naive, I do but checking everything there is nothing. She just may either have severe hormone issues which is in her family or she just truly does not love me anymore.


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## jld

It is good you have recovered financially. That should restore at least some of her trust and respect.

I don't know if it would be different for a man, but as a woman, if I heard that speech, I would probably do the 180. I would certainly be angry. And I would feel betrayed.

Good grief, we take those vows for better and for worse, right?

But we humans are so fickle.


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## LongWalk

Sounds very much like the stress of your legal problems could have affected her emotionally. She felt empty with the loss of security and your marriage is a casualty of the lack of belief in your life. Life without you will be another blow.

Did you discuss your ability to recover economically? Do you assure her that you will restore your family? Does she now have a more secure income than you?


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## doublep

jld said:


> It is good you have recovered financially. That should restore at least some of her trust and respect.
> 
> I don't know if it would be different for a man, but as a woman, if I heard that speech, I would probably do the 180. I would certainly be angry. And I would feel betrayed.
> 
> Good grief, we take those vows for better and for worse, right?
> 
> But we humans are so fickle.


Well, as I husband, I took the seriously. And who am I as a man and husband? 

I am a man that loves to be with his woman. I love my wife and everything I think in life of doing I want my wife with me. I come home everyday from work SO excited to see my babies and my queen. I drink socially, I don't go out with the buddies all the time, I share household responsibilities with my wife and most important I have always given her, her time. Meaning, she needs her space as a human.... I gave it her. I don't track her, I don't bicker and I don't just agree with her. 

Of course I have faults but we over come them. There was a time a few years back where I was not really "in love" with my wife either but inside I loved her. I gave it time to see what was wrong and I came back. 

Yet at the most crucial time of my life, the most personal trying time for me... She unloads this on me?


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## jld

I'm really sorry, doublep.

What do you think could help, if anything?


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## doublep

LongWalk said:


> Sounds very much like the stress of your legal problems could have affected her emotionally. She felt empty with the loss of security and your marriage is a casualty of the lack of belief in your life. Life without you will be another blow.
> 
> Did you discuss your ability to recover economically? Do you assure her that you will restore your family? Does she now have a more secure income than you?


Well, we started out working together equal in pay... My Business took off and for 6-8 years she got to be a stay at home mom which she loved and I loved we could do that.

Then they came and destroyed our home, business and everything else over lies (to put it quickly)... We still are 2 years out from the after math but I don't make what I used to. Not even close. 

I am still the main moneymaker. I work long 10-12 hour days. We are on our way back up, I loved the fact that we got back up off the floor and wouldn't stay down.....

This was a complete shock... I know she doesn't really want to work but it may only be temporary as my job has potential to get me back to previous income levels. She is not a shallow person and well... Maybe all these years she is something I thought she could never be?

I am facing the end of this 2 year nightmare and she springs this on me now??? At this time??? Evil? Is she a monster?


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## doublep

jld said:


> I'm really sorry, doublep.
> 
> What do you think could help, if anything?


She wants to live here together for the kids as partners. Nothing changes except our intimacy, which will not exist. It becomes business like...

I agreed, as hard as it would be because I love her and my babies more than anything. Do I leave her alone for the time being? Do I push for MC? Do I push for closure? DO I leave? Does she?

With out being sappy... I am so lonely without her.


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## lifeistooshort

I would stop with the victim talk about her being evil and dumping this on poor you. Remember that while this has undoubtedly been tough for you it's rocked her world as well, and i'm going to guess the last couple of years have been about you. I know it's tough but start giving some credit for what your wife has gone through.

Now you said yourself that you went through a period of not being in love, so why is she not allowed the same thing? Because she spoke up and you didn't? Maybe you can work to rebuild and it'll come back for her, but you must stop with the victim talk right now. You both have a part and this has been tough on both of you.

Sorry, I know it hurts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Lifeistooshort is making good points, OP, don't you think? Your wife has suffered a lot, too.

What do you think about just continuing to talk with her, just sharing your heart with her, but not making demands on her? Just really listening and trying to empathize. Do you think that would help?


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## Rugs

Why would you agree to leave your house and children when she is the unhappy one?

If it comes to no resolution, she should be the one to leave. 

MC seems to be your best option. If she does not want MC, consider IC.


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## nuclearnightmare

doublep said:


> She wants to live here together for the kids as partners. Nothing changes except our intimacy, which will not exist. It becomes business like...
> 
> I agreed, as hard as it would be because I love her and my babies more than anything. Do I leave her alone for the time being? Do I push for MC? Do I push for closure? DO I leave? Does she?
> 
> With out being sappy... I am so lonely without her.


sounds horrible doublep. I'm sure its very tough on you. You asked her the question "if I'm not loved why should I stay." you should demand she answer it.....that she provide a good answer. she may not have one now. keep asking.....


all options will be hard on you, but I think getting away from her will help you get your equilibrium back. especially since she has set a no sex rule. that definitely is not giving you a good reason to stay. what an insult! but when you do separate don't isolate yourself from others. Figure out a way to be with extended family, people and with friends and to stay connected with your kids. 

she's not a monster, but she is an adult and she needs to be held accountable for what she says, and the implications thereof. I think you should get away from her temporarily. at the same time get started with MC for both of you. If she pushes back on that then she really might be done with you. BTW when I mention spending time with "people and friends" - ideally some of them will be women. which would not be a bad message to send her way.


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## doublep

jld said:


> Lifeistooshort is making good points, OP, don't you think? Your wife has suffered a lot, too.
> 
> What do you think about just continuing to talk with her, just sharing your heart with her, but not making demands on her? Just really listening and trying to empathize. Do you think that would help?


Lifeistooshort is making a great point, agreed. I have acknowledged that with her as well, this is just as hard on her. I play the victim here because maybe, well, when someone doesn't know what to do, We look outward?

I am here because I am ignorant to this. I was looking for advice from what is obviously a smart group of people. As far as listening, I always have but maybe not enough?


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## doublep

nuclearnightmare said:


> sounds horrible doublep. I'm sure its very tough on you. You asked her the question "if I'm not loved why should I stay." you should demand she answer it.....that she provide a good answer. she may not have one now. keep asking.....
> 
> 
> all options will be hard on you, but I think getting away from her will help you get your equilibrium back. especially since she has set a no sex rule. that definitely is not giving you a good reason to stay. what an insult! but when you do separate don't isolate yourself from others. Figure out a way to be with extended family, people and with friends and to stay connected with your kids.
> 
> she's not a monster, but she is an adult and she needs to be held accountable for what she says, and the implications thereof. I think you should get away from her temporarily. at the same time get started with MC for both of you. If she pushes back on that then she really might be done with you. BTW when I mention spending time with "people and friends" - ideally some of them will be women. which would not be a bad message to send her way.


I agree as well... I may sound squishy on here as my hear is hurt but I am in no way, passive with her. Meaning, I didnt cry, beg or any of that. I gave her a choice....

I said "If this is permanent and what you want I will not stay, period. I also will not come back in 6 months if you change your mind, once I am gone, I am gone. I will not play a back and forth game. That is not fair to me.... If I stay, its for the kids and you are a bit confused still and have not made a decision".

She agreed with staying.... I guess maybe I feel I may be getting set up for something?


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## michzz

doublep said:


> If you mean an affair, there isn't one. I have access to all her phone records, texts, data, PC, etc... I do all the bills and home stuff. There is nothing and *she has always been a very honorable person.*
> 
> *Yes I know that sounds naive*, I do but checking everything there is nothing. She just may either have severe hormone issues which is in her family or she just truly does not love me anymore.


Watch your logic fault in your defense of your wife.

You do not have conclusive proof of an affair or no affair.

Unless you are following her 24/7, you have no idea to what lengths someone goes to cheat.


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## Abc123wife

doublep said:


> She wants to live here together for the kids as partners. Nothing changes except our intimacy, which will not exist. It becomes business like...
> 
> I agreed, as hard as it would be because I love her and my babies more than anything. Do I leave her alone for the time being? Do I push for MC? Do I push for closure? DO I leave? Does she?
> 
> With out being sappy... I am so lonely without her.


So all of the sudden your sex life is over? Are you OK with that? Has the frequency dwindled lately? Maybe this is just her way of putting an end to sex if she has decided she isn't into it any more. She gets to keep all other aspects of married life, while putting your sex life on hold.


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## doublep

Abc123wife said:


> So all of the sudden your sex life is over? Are you OK with that? Has the frequency dwindled lately? Maybe this is just her way of putting an end to sex if she has decided she isn't into it any more. She gets to keep all other aspects of married life, while putting your sex life on hold.


I am 100% not okay with that, I am very sexual. She has not been since the beginning, not terrible but she is okay with no sex...

What is odd, a few months back she got really sexual for about a month or so, it was a first. She wanted sex a lot... Then this???

She says she feels bad about this and knows how sexual I am. I dont know, I guess that is why I am here.


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## Machiavelli

Just to recap some key points:



doublep said:


> We are always together.





doublep said:


> We still are 2 years out from the aftermath but I don't make what I used to. Not even close. I work long 10-12 hour days.





doublep said:


> She just started working again 3-4 weeks ago.





doublep said:


> Then a bombshell this week... In this worst of times, she says she loves me but is not in love with me anymore.


Now, my question: how long have you been working this new job for 10-12 hours a day away from her?


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## doublep

Machiavelli said:


> Just to recap some key points:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, my question: how long have you been working this new job for 10-12 hours a day away from her?


16 months now...


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## Thound

I went thru this crap 12 years ago, and I'm still going thru it now. I wished I would have found TAM back then. I would have told her don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.


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## doublep

Thound said:


> I went thru this crap 12 years ago, and I'm still going thru it now. I wished I would have found TAM back then. I would have told her don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.



Well people here locally tell me the same thing. Once they pull sex away, there is a reason. I have a hard time swallowing this "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore" - 

What would you all do if your wife said this and agreed to stay together in the house for the kids, would you do it?


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## Thound

doublep said:


> Well people here locally tell me the same thing. Once they pull sex away, there is a reason. I have a hard time swallowing this "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore" -
> 
> What would you all do if your wife said this and agreed to stay together in the house for the kids, would you do it?


I've been doing it for almost 13 years now. I stayed because I take my vows seriously and I'm madly in love with my wife or more likely in love with the memory of my wife. I still love her, but I have not felt loved in these past years. It's a cold slow death that has me questioning my faith and God. Our kids are gone now and I guess we are stating together waiting for the first one to drop dead. I hope I'm first, because oddly enough I still love her.


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## Machiavelli

OP, you aren't going to like what I have to say, but it's almost a sure thing your wife had something happen that reawakened her libido six months ago. Most likely this involved some other person. It doesn't mean anything necessarily happened then, it just means a spark was ignited that may not have anything to do with you.

Then 4 weeks after she starts working outside the home in a new job, you suddenly get ILYBINILWY right out of the blue. That almost certainly means she met someone at work and wants to explore that relationship.

There are a lot biological reasons this is happening, some general age and hormone things going on, plus some issues specific to your situation that are also playing into general WW behaviors. I don't have time to get into that tonight, but what you need to do is get to the bottom of the situation as to who ASAP. The best way to do this is to put a VAR in her car (velcro to the bottom of the seat) and GPS the car. Most likely whatever is happening at this point is happening at work. How did she find this job?

If an affair is not a deal killer for you and you want to get her back, there are some other steps you need to start taking immediately. Which I will outline for you tomorrow.

What kind of shape are you in?

Do other women ever hit on you?


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## doublep

Machiavelli said:


> OP, you aren't going to like what I have to say, but it's almost a sure thing your wife had something happen that reawakened her libido six months ago. Most likely this involved some other person. It doesn't mean anything necessarily happened then, it just means a spark was ignited that may not have anything to do with you.
> 
> Then 4 weeks after she starts working outside the home in a new job, you suddenly get ILYBINILWY right out of the blue. That almost certainly means she met someone at work and wants to explore that relationship.
> 
> There are a lot biological reasons this is happening, some general age and hormone things going on, plus some issues specific to your situation that are also playing into general WW behaviors. I don't have time to get into that tonight, but what you need to do is get to the bottom of the situation as to who ASAP. The best way to do this is to put a VAR in her car (velcro to the bottom of the seat) and GPS the car. Most likely whatever is happening at this point is happening at work. How did she find this job?
> 
> If an affair is not a deal killer for you and you want to get her back, there are some other steps you need to start taking immediately. Which I will outline for you tomorrow.
> 
> What kind of shape are you in?
> 
> Do other women ever hit on you?


I'm in decent shape... I have been told many times by women that if it fails with my wife, come look for them. This is not bragging, I am no male model but I am a good, loyal and loving man. Over the years I have had women hit on me knowing I was married, I even have one at work that flirts. It doesn't last long because I have no interest outside my wife.

I am also madly in love with her.

If she was cheating it would certainly be a deal breaker. That is the one thing that would end it all forever. As for her job, it is her old job she got back after our incident 2 years a go she tried to work but couldn't due to PTSD. She is trying again....


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## doublep

Thound said:


> I've been doing it for almost 13 years now. I stayed because I take my vows seriously and I'm madly in love with my wife or more likely in love with the memory of my wife. I still love her, but I have not felt loved in these past years. It's a cold slow death that has me questioning my faith and God. Our kids are gone now and I guess we are stating together waiting for the first one to drop dead. I hope I'm first, because oddly enough I still love her.


I am so sorry... That is a long time but something I would do as well. You nailed it on the end about the "memory of her" - Maybe that is what I cling to? Maybe she really just wants to move on but its the mixed messages that get me.

She wants me to stay, she still wants to be involved in my situation, she will still be a parent yet... She is not in love anymore? - This is hard for me to understand.

She came home tonight... Talked like we always do, called me "hun" and we even shared a joke or two like we always do. I am not pushing yet or anything as I am trying to wrap my head around it.

Pre-menopause? PTSD? I don't know...


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## Catherine602

A few things to consider.

She may not be having a physical affair now. There may be someone sniffing around her looking for an affair. 

Who does she work with and what kind of work does she do? Does she talk about her coworkers. Is there a name that comes up frequently. Is she taking more interest in her appearance lately. 

You spend many hrs at work so you are not with her all of the time. She spends time at work so there again, you are not always together. 

I know you think she could not ever cheat but anyone can do it. Some creep at her job may be turning her head. Happens all of the time. Some men make sport of pursuing naive married women. 

This is a bad time for you but you have to pull yourself together. Dig deeper discreetly. Don't under any circumstances let her know you suspect anything. Don't ask her she will not tell.

She is unhappy and confused as are you. She may be vulnerable to a rescue by a man she thinks will make her happy. In a way, you are both 15 yrs old, relationship wise. 

You have not been exposed to relationships with others. She may believe and trust like a 15 yo girl. Do everything you can to head this off. Don't agree to the in house separation. Insist on MC and working on the relationship. 

You are being too passive. You need to get a plan and follow it. You are going to lose each other. You will both regret it.


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## loveadvice

doublep said:


> Well, Financially we are really good, now. She just started working again 3-4 weeks ago. So, together we are all set there.
> 
> We have not seen a MC.
> 
> Doing some reading and you have to be careful with the internet because there is good advice but a lot of revenge minded and hurt people as well. I guess my issue mainly is why after all these years would she do this at the worst possible time, when I need her most?
> 
> Seems evil and I almost view her as a monster. Yet, I love her more than life itself.


My boyfriend's SAHM ex-wife left him after he lost his job after years of being an executive and an extremely high wage earner. 

Back to you. Your wife is now more financially secure than you are in terms of earning potential. Perhaps she lost respect for you because of your current financial situation and decided to cut her losses. It's a cruel way to think, but women have thought in this way.

I more I read about other marriages on this board, the less I want to remarry.


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## SoVeryLost

I completely agree with Machiavellii. Something happened. Something changed. You may not see signs now, but were you watching for signs a few months ago? Think about it. There was a catalyst to her sudden change in sexual prowess. 

My other observation; which others have noted, is your victim talk. Not only that, but you sound as though you place yourself on a pedestal. For example, you said you were always a good listener. How do you know? Is that by your measure or her's? Did you ever ask her? 

You also paint a rather pretty picture of yourself as a near perfect husband. I'm not saying that you may not be, but after 26 years you better have some faults or I'd be checking to see if you were bionic. My point in saying that is if that is truly the way you view yourself, and that is how you are portraying yourself to all of us on this forum, I can't imagine how you portray yourself to your wife. I sense a "holier than thou" mentality. Especially given the, "how could SHE do this to ME when I need her most?" As if you can't fathom her audacity for falling out of love with you. People don't flip a switch for no reason. 

I'm certain you're not a bad person. But this forum is all about hard truths. If you don't acknowledge the problems you can't work through them. Let yourself be vulnerable here.


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## Thound

Could she be cheating? Sure, but maybe the increased libido could have been her trying to get the spark back. When it didn't happen she decided to give you the speech.


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## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> This is not bragging, I am no male model but I am a good, loyal and loving man. Over the years I have had women hit on me knowing I was married, I even have one at work that flirts.


Now....picture your wife (behaving the same as your coworker) at her work place!?!

Redflags dude!! She's got her sights on someone new!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

doublep said:


> What is odd, a few months back she got really sexual for about a month or so, it was a first. She wanted sex a lot... Then this???


 I know that you say that it is not possible, but your wife sounds like she may be having an affair. Affairs often cause the cheaters to at first increase sex with their spouse before they cut it off with the standard "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech; that phrase is so common among cheater that it is often referred to as "ilybinilwy" in infidelity forums. Google "ilybinilwy infidelity" as it will be a real eye opener for you.

As for you knowing if she did cheat, chances are that you would not. According to the MSNBC.com/iVillage Lust, Love & Loyalty survey, “Ironically, while we tend to overestimate cheating in society, we are often blind to it in our own lives. If your partner is cheating, chances are, you have no idea. Six in 10 cheaters believe they totally got away with their affair and another one in 10 felt their partner was suspicious, but never found out for sure.” Six in 10 plus one in 10 equals 70% that never find out about their spouses affair.


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## nuclearnightmare

OP

In terms if what you should do, I would trust your initial reactions/feelings. That you should separate. To save expense, do you have any family in the area? Does she? I really think you should try to get away from her in the short term and spend time with friends or relatives. You've received a terrible shock and she's the one responsible for it. She's not gonna help you understand it. She doesn't even sound all that stable emotionally. Either she should leave and go somewhere or you should. 

Besides her and your kids who else are you close to in your local area. You need to unburden yourself to someone. BTW at this point you need to think of what you need and what your kids need. Don't worry about what she needs - sounds like you don't know anyway. She says she no longer loves you. For now I think you should just take her at her word. I.e. don't trust her with your emotional well being. Keep away from her......


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## Ripper

Good advise so far, I'm just going to add this.

Google search Briffault's Law. Its harsh, but it is what it is.

Briffault's Law:

"The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place." — Robert Briffault, The Mothers, Vol. I, p. 191

Good luck on whatever you decide to do.


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## doublep

Thanks for all the replies, I will try to answer them all...

As for making myself sound like the perfect husband:
I can admit I am far from it. I tend myself to be a bit self centered. I can be distant at times and I do say things I don't mean. As for my wife, she generally is a great woman. She is a wonderful mom and has been a great wife. If I came off as a bit conceded it was not my intent, I just meant overall I am a good husband or strive to be.

For the cheating:
Her job is not a usual one, she doesn't really have co-workers she is with. She is on her own during the day (mail carrier). I have seen her text records, voice data, phone numbers, computer, etc. Not because I spy but because we use each others stuff for bills and stuff and there is nothing at all.

We talked this morning and I asked her if she is willing to go to MC and she said yes immediately. She also explained that she thinks maybe because of the trauma of the last 2 years she is trying to avoid more pain by separating herself from me. 

This makes sense because my wife grew up in a terrible household. she had abusive parents, not physically but just did not care about the kids. She had seen terrible things and the way my wife deals with things is to separate and cut off her emotions. I have seen it with her mom and other things.

She cried this morning and said maybe if she cuts me off she wont have to watch me go through any more pain and watch us both hurt constantly. I don't deal with things that way so its hard for me to understand. She has always dealt with things that way... I believe her, I think I am just so afraid of being a sucker I guess?


----------



## doublep

loveadvice said:


> My boyfriend's SAHM ex-wife left him after he lost his job after years of being an executive and an extremely high wage earner.
> 
> Back to you. Your wife is now more financially secure than you are in terms of earning potential. Perhaps she lost respect for you because of your current financial situation and decided to cut her losses. It's a cruel way to think, but women have thought in this way.
> 
> I more I read about other marriages on this board, the less I want to remarry.


Well, I am still the main wage earner and my potential to be where I was before is really good in the near future.


----------



## bandit.45

So she's a coward basically. She runs when the going gets tough?

Well... Do you really want to be married to someone like that?

I thought the words "for better or worse" meant something. Obviously they don't to her. What a nice person. Turning her back on you when you need her the most. 


OR she has found another guy, wants to leave you, but is using the business troubles as an excuse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> So she's a coward basically. She runs when the going gets tough?
> 
> Well... Do you really want to be married to someone like that?
> 
> I thought the words "for better or worse" meant something. Obviously they don't to her. What a nice person. Turning her back on you when you need her the most.
> 
> 
> OR she has found another guy, wants to leave you, but is using the business troubles as an excuse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I want to disagree with you so bad... I want to tell you how wrong you are.... But this is what I feel...


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## anchorwatch

Have you browsed any of the readings, including the WAW syndrome?

You took a few hits were yesterday. Still think this is all on her?


----------



## doublep

I have been reading up on this: "ilybinilwy"

Everything I read says it is most likely she is cheating on you. If she is in my case it would have to be an affair of extreme limited time and I mean almost none.

She is always at work or at home with me. I am gone by 6:30 am for work and she gets up at 7:30 and takes the kids to school, then heads into work. I get home around 5 pm and she does as well. Then we are both home for the night.

Her texts are clean, no calls, no PC chatting or anything. The only thing I can think of is we are both kind of gaming freaks, we play online games. Could she be in an emotional affair online with someone she doesn't even know???

I see her playing, she does not hide the chatting. She gets on the online voice to talk to her game mates but never hides her conversations, her door is open and she even plays the game with my daughter at times....

So confusing....


----------



## Openminded

Yes, she definitely could be in an EA online with someone she's never met. It happens.


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## bandit.45

Well it may not be cheating, but you need to find out. 

Do the MC, do what you can to get to the root of her issues. If that doesn't work then you need to make a decision: stay on a loveless sexless marriage or divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

It may not be cheating, but she may be so done with you, she is open to someone else giving her an emotional connection. That's why I gave you The link to DB's WAW article and Harley's material, so you could make a connection to what may be in play. READ THEM!

Still she might get that at work, and you'd not be privy to it. ( There is the VARS, GPS in her car, and Keylogger on the computer route for that)

I'll ask again. Still think this is all on her?


----------



## doublep

anchorwatch said:


> It may not be cheating, but she may be so done with you, she is open to someone else giving her an emotional connection. That's why I gave you The link to DB's WAW article and Harley's material, so you could make a connection to what may be in play. READ THEM!
> 
> Still she might get that at work, and you'd not be privy to it. ( There is the VARS, GPS in her car, and Keylogger on the computer route for that)
> 
> I'll ask again. Still think this is all on her?


Well no, I am sure the situation and trauma our family has been though the last few years is hurting the marriage, its not all her. Her words are "I am just done". She is wanting to go for MC as well.

But maybe because I think so differently, what I mean is, when things get bad in my life I turn to my wife. She is my rock, we have always had the us against the world mentality.

She has also stated when I brought up the EA possibility, she said "Are you serious? You know I am not really an intimate person and could live my life alone". Which is true, she is not a typical girl (generalizing) who needs a lot of intimacy and emotional support. She is very strong that way...Maybe due to her upbringing?


----------



## bandit.45

See you are allowing her to lead you around by the nose. You need to stop this. This is what I would have said in a nutshell:

" Wife, I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you in a passionate, loving marriage. However, I was falsely accused of something and my business suffered as a result. You know, I could have run from my problems, chose the cowards way out and abandoned you and the family. But instead I stood up for myself, stuck it out, kept the remnants of my career and now I'm slowly rebuilding it. 

Then you hit me witn this sh!t. Out if the blue. You have list your passion for me. You are no longer in live with me....

Well here is the deal my dear wife: I don't own your feelings. You do. I'm not responsible for your happiness. You either choose to be happy or you choose to be miserable. I have nothing to do with that decision. 

I am not going to live in a loveless, sexless, passionless marriage witn a person who has turned their back on me emotionally. I will not sacrifice my remaining years in this life waiting around for my partner to decide wether or not she wants to stay married to me. I will not hedge my future on someone who finds it easier to bail on me emotionally, just because I have gone through a couple of years of hard times. I will not live in limbo. I will divorce you amicably and set you free to go find your perfect partner, and I in turn will go and find a woman who will love me, desire me, have sex with me, and not jump ship when the seas get a little rough. 

I will not compromise my future for the whims of your emotions. I just won't. I will do everything I need to do to save this marriage with you, but I won't do it alone. "
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

anchorwatch said:


> It may not be cheating, but she may be so done with you, she is open to someone else giving her an emotional connection. That's why I gave you The link to DB's WAW article and Harley's material, so you could make a connection to what may be in play. READ THEM!
> 
> Still she might get that at work, and you'd not be privy to it. ( There is the VARS, GPS in her car, and Keylogger on the computer route for that)
> 
> I'll ask again. Still think this is all on her?


Why are you wanting so badly to put the blame on this guy?

I have many friends in the construction industry who lost their jobs, businesses and everything for reasons beyond their control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> See you are allowing her to lead you around by the nose. You need to stop this. This is what I would have said in a nutshell:
> 
> " Wife, I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you in a passionate, loving marriage. However, I was falsely accused of something and my business suffered as a result. You know, I could have run from my problems, chose the cowards way out and abandoned you and the family. But instead I stood up for myself, stuck it out, kept the remnants of my career and now I'm slowly rebuilding it.
> 
> Then you hit me witn this sh!t. Out if the blue. You have list your passion for me. You are no longer in live with me....
> 
> Well here is the deal my dear wife: I don't own your feelings. You do. I'm not responsible for your happiness. You either choose to be happy or you choose to be miserable. I have nothing to do with that decision.
> 
> I am not going to live in a loveless, sexless, passionless marriage witn a person who has turned their back on me emotionally. I will not sacrifice my remaining years in this life waiting around for my partner to decide wether or not she wants to stay married to me. I will not hedge my future on someone who finds it easier to bail on me emotionally, just because I have gone through a couple of years of hard times. I will not live in limbo. I will divorce you amicably and set you free to go find your perfect partner, and I in turn will go and find a woman who will love me, desire me, have sex with me, and not jump ship when the seas get a little rough.
> 
> I will not compromise my future for the whims of your emotions. I just won't. I will do everything I need to do to save this marriage with you, but I won't do it alone. "
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


God that is good...


----------



## bandit.45

doublep said:


> God that is good...


Clearly define your expectations. 

Clearly define your boundaries. 

Just like in business.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## See_Listen_Love

SoVeryLost said:


> I completely agree with Machiavellii. Something happened. Something changed. You may not see signs now, but were you watching for signs a few months ago? Think about it. There was a catalyst to her sudden change in sexual prowess.
> 
> My other observation; which others have noted, is your victim talk. Not only that, but you sound as though you place yourself on a pedestal. For example, you said you were always a good listener. How do you know? Is that by your measure or her's? Did you ever ask her?
> 
> You also paint a rather pretty picture of yourself as a near perfect husband. I'm not saying that you may not be, but after 26 years you better have some faults or I'd be checking to see if you were bionic. My point in saying that is if that is truly the way you view yourself, and that is how you are portraying yourself to all of us on this forum, I can't imagine how you portray yourself to your wife. I sense a "holier than thou" mentality. Especially given the, "how could SHE do this to ME when I need her most?" As if you can't fathom her audacity for falling out of love with you. People don't flip a switch for no reason.
> 
> I'm certain you're not a bad person. But this forum is all about hard truths. If you don't acknowledge the problems you can't work through them. Let yourself be vulnerable here.


And the truth shall set you free....

For a starter, don't go forcefully into this situation. Calm down, have patience. In a lot of cases you see the same situation leading to growing apart because of stress and hardship. Maybe she did not want to leave you when fighting for survival, but now she may think it is time for her.

Women need attention, a listening ear, intimacy, love. Maybe all the work has taken away your energy. Maybe you can think about this, and see if you need to change. If so, and if you still love her, take action.


----------



## bandit.45

Women do need listening and attention and love. 

But they also need to adjust their expectations when the family and marriage are going through a crisis period, such as the one they went through. Sometimes you have to put your needs on hold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch

doublep said:


> Well no, I am sure the situation and trauma our family has been though the last few years is hurting the marriage, its not all her. Her words are "I am just done". She is wanting to go for MC as well.
> 
> *Good about her wanting to go to MC. Make sure you find one that's pro marriage. She may be wanting to use MC to let you down easy. Ust the link about MCs I gave you for reference. *
> 
> But maybe because I think so differently, what I mean is, *when things get bad in my life I turn to my wife*. She is my rock, we have always had the us against the world mentality.
> 
> *That could be a problem. You may have leaned on her so much, she looks at you as dependent, not as a strong leader and husband.*
> 
> She has also stated when I brought up the EA possibility, she said "Are you serious? *You know I am not really an intimate person *and could live my life alone". Which is true, she is not a typical girl (generalizing) who needs a lot of intimacy and emotional support. She is very strong that way...Maybe due to her upbringing?
> 
> *Many couples (especially ones who have not had a lot of partners) will fall into a sexual comfort zone, and won't step out of it for fear they may destabilize that comfort with each other. It doesn't mean she can't awaken that sexuality with someone else. It's been said many a time here, it's not that he/she doesn't desire sex, they just don't desire sex with you. I also gave you brother member Athol Kay's link for you to understand that. If her libido is rising, you need to address it, not ignore it' like its some passing thing.*


*Again, you have'n answered what roll do you play in this. You speak of it as we, and her, not me. I believe you don't see your part. That's why I gave you the readings, to explore. Look, The reason for looking at yourself is, you can't change her behavior, you can only change your behavior. So what is it that you need to address. *


----------



## anchorwatch

bandit.45 said:


> Why are you wanting so badly to put the blame on this guy?
> 
> I have many friends in the construction industry who lost their jobs, businesses and everything for reasons beyond their control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not blaming him at all. 

I think it is time to get to the reasons, before a decision is made on moving forward or not. 

Sorry if it comes off that way. 

It's on both if them, but since he is here looking for answers, it should be him that takes control of the wheel, and put this relationship back on course. That would do quite bit to raise his status in her eyes.


----------



## Thound

bandit.45 said:


> See you are allowing her to lead you around by the nose. You need to stop this. This is what I would have said in a nutshell:
> 
> " Wife, I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you in a passionate, loving marriage. However, I was falsely accused of something and my business suffered as a result. You know, I could have run from my problems, chose the cowards way out and abandoned you and the family. But instead I stood up for myself, stuck it out, kept the remnants of my career and now I'm slowly rebuilding it.
> 
> Then you hit me witn this sh!t. Out if the blue. You have list your passion for me. You are no longer in live with me....
> 
> Well here is the deal my dear wife: I don't own your feelings. You do. I'm not responsible for your happiness. You either choose to be happy or you choose to be miserable. I have nothing to do with that decision.
> 
> I am not going to live in a loveless, sexless, passionless marriage witn a person who has turned their back on me emotionally. I will not sacrifice my remaining years in this life waiting around for my partner to decide wether or not she wants to stay married to me. I will not hedge my future on someone who finds it easier to bail on me emotionally, just because I have gone through a couple of years of hard times. I will not live in limbo. I will divorce you amicably and set you free to go find your perfect partner, and I in turn will go and find a woman who will love me, desire me, have sex with me, and not jump ship when the seas get a little rough.
> 
> I will not compromise my future for the whims of your emotions. I just won't. I will do everything I need to do to save this marriage with you, but I won't do it alone. "
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WOW!!!!! I really, really like this. When I get on my PC I'm going to copy and paste this in a word document and massage it to fit my situation, and when the time is right I'm going to use it. Thanks Bandit.


----------



## doublep

See_Listen_Love said:


> And the truth shall set you free....
> 
> For a starter, don't go forcefully into this situation. Calm down, have patience. In a lot of cases you see the same situation leading to growing apart because of stress and hardship. Maybe she did not want to leave you when fighting for survival, but now she may think it is time for her.
> 
> Women need attention, a listening ear, intimacy, love. Maybe all the work has taken away your energy. Maybe you can think about this, and see if you need to change. If so, and if you still love her, take action.


What is funny about this is that I am the intimate one. I love to hang out, watch a movie, have lots of sex, etc... She has always been a bit colder, less intimate and not a real sex person.

I am going to give it a try since she wants to go to MC. If it doesnt work I am gone for good, as much as I love her. If that happens I will never come back as I stated before to her. I will move on and find some one in the second half of my life that enjoys what I do.

Being truthful though, I am having a hard time with her timing of all this... Right when I needed her most. Its cold and evil to me.


----------



## GettingIt_2

bandit.45 said:


> See you are allowing her to lead you around by the nose. You need to stop this. This is what I would have said in a nutshell:
> 
> " Wife, I love you and I want to spend the rest of my life with you in a passionate, loving marriage. However, I was falsely accused of something and my business suffered as a result. You know, I could have run from my problems, chose the cowards way out and abandoned you and the family. But instead I stood up for myself, stuck it out, kept the remnants of my career and now I'm slowly rebuilding it.
> 
> Then you hit me witn this sh!t. Out if the blue. You have list your passion for me. You are no longer in live with me....
> 
> Well here is the deal my dear wife: I don't own your feelings. You do. I'm not responsible for your happiness. You either choose to be happy or you choose to be miserable. I have nothing to do with that decision.
> 
> I am not going to live in a loveless, sexless, passionless marriage witn a person who has turned their back on me emotionally. I will not sacrifice my remaining years in this life waiting around for my partner to decide wether or not she wants to stay married to me. I will not hedge my future on someone who finds it easier to bail on me emotionally, just because I have gone through a couple of years of hard times. I will not live in limbo. I will divorce you amicably and set you free to go find your perfect partner, and I in turn will go and find a woman who will love me, desire me, have sex with me, and not jump ship when the seas get a little rough.
> 
> I will not compromise my future for the whims of your emotions. I just won't. I will do everything I need to do to save this marriage with you, but I won't do it alone. "
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





doublep said:


> God that is good...





Thound said:


> WOW!!!!! I really, really like this. When I get on my PC I'm going to copy and paste this in a word document and massage it to fit my situation, and when the time is right I'm going to use it. Thanks Bandit.



Just want to chime in with another perspective here: during my "walk away" years, had my husband given me this speech, it would have ended in divorce, with a measure of relief for me. 

OP, if you are at the place of being able to accept her taking you up on this offer, then by all means, give her this speech. 

Your wife, in my opinion, is far from a monster. She is telling you how she feels, not hiding it like many women do, only to serve their spouse with surprise divorce papers one day. She has agreed to MC, which means she is willing to work on this. 

Think long and hard about what you most want here. If it's reconciliation, then go the MC route. If it's a guarantee right now that she'll be back in love with you soon, then you might as well let her go now, because there are no guarantees in love or in life.


----------



## doublep

GettingIt said:


> Just want to chime in with another perspective here: during my "walk away" years, had my husband given me this speech, it would have ended in divorce, with a measure of relief for me.
> 
> OP, if you are at the place of being able to accept her taking you up on this offer, then by all means, give her this speech.
> 
> Your wife, in my opinion, is far from a monster. She is telling you how she feels, not hiding it like many women do, only to serve their spouse with surprise divorce papers one day. She has agreed to MC, which means she is willing to work on this.
> 
> Think long and hard about what you most want here. If it's reconciliation, then go the MC route. If it's a guarantee right now that she'll be back in love with you soon, then you might as well let her go now, because there are no guarantees in love or in life.


That is the only reason I am here, because I believe her and she is willing to work on it. But Bandit is right, We as people, all of us, deserve what we want in life. I am not going to live in a sexless and emotionless marriage for long if I don't think there is any fixing it.


----------



## bandit.45

GettingIt said:


> Just want to chime in with another perspective here: during my "walk away" years, had my husband given me this speech, it would have ended in divorce, with a measure of relief for me.
> 
> OP, if you are at the place of being able to accept her taking you up on this offer, then by all means, give her this speech.
> 
> Your wife, in my opinion, is far from a monster. She is telling you how she feels, not hiding it like many women do, only to serve their spouse with surprise divorce papers one day. She has agreed to MC, which means she is willing to work on this.
> 
> Think long and hard about what you most want here. If it's reconciliation, then go the MC route. If it's a guarantee right now that she'll be back in love with you soon, then you might as well let her go now, because there are no guarantees in love or in life.


And what if she did cheat or is cheating ?

Anyway, maybe telling her this will make her walk. If so...good riddance. I wouldn't want to be married to a spineless, fickle, WAW who can't finds a way to communicate her needs to her husband. 

From what OP told us, she had never in the past approached him to tell him she is unhappy. No, she waits until she had checked out to do so. 

That's not fair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

bandit.45 said:


> And what if she did cheat or is cheating ?
> 
> Anyway, maybe telling her this will make her walk. If so...good riddance. I wouldn't want to be married to a spineless, fickle, WAW who can't finds a way to communicate her needs to her husband.
> 
> From what OP told us, she had never in the past approached him to tell him she is unhappy. No, she waits until she had checked out to do so.
> 
> That's not fair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And if the OP agrees with this assessment, then he can take your advice.


----------



## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> And what if she did cheat or is cheating ?
> 
> Anyway, maybe telling her this will make her walk. If so...good riddance. I wouldn't want to be married to a spineless, fickle, WAW who can't finds a way to communicate her needs to her husband.
> 
> From what OP told us, she had never in the past approached him to tell him she is unhappy. No, she waits until she had checked out to do so.
> 
> That's not fair.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right, there has never been any serious issues in this relationship, or course spats here and there. 

If it is cheating, 100% cheating, that is a deal breaker and I am gone for good. It, to me is the most dishonorable thing any spouse can do when in a marriage. some may feel different, I don't.


----------



## GettingIt_2

doublep said:


> That is the only reason I am here, because I believe her and she is willing to work on it. But Bandit is right, We as people, all of us, deserve what we want in life. I am not going to live in a sexless and emotionless marriage for long if I don't think there is any fixing it.


You must live your life as you see fit, just as your wife is doing. After all, she is a person, too, who, as you say, "deserves what she wants in life." 

Setting an affair aside, I don't see right or wrong in this situation, just two people who have drifted apart--likely due to the unusual stress of the past two years on top of the normal circumstances of life. It happens to most married couples. There are myriad ways to handle it; we all have different boundaries on what we are willing to give to a marriage. At this stage, however, I think you have a lot of options to work towards the restoration of your intimacy since she has expressed a willingness to work on it with you in MC.


----------



## Thound

GettingIt said:


> Just want to chime in with another perspective here: during my "walk away" years, had my husband given me this speech, it would have ended in divorce, with a measure of relief for me.
> 
> OP, if you are at the place of being able to accept her taking you up on this offer, then by all means, give her this speech.
> 
> Your wife, in my opinion, is far from a monster. She is telling you how she feels, not hiding it like many women do, only to serve their spouse with surprise divorce papers one day. She has agreed to MC, which means she is willing to work on this.
> 
> Think long and hard about what you most want here. If it's reconciliation, then go the MC route. If it's a guarantee right now that she'll be back in love with you soon, then you might as well let her go now, because there are no guarantees in love or in life.


Well if she walks she walks. That's on her, but it's better than living in limbo like I have for the past 13 years. Feeling unwanted, unloved, undesirable, you name it.


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## LongWalk

Her period of increased sexual desire was driven by her liminal being, not some rational self analyst. You can still tap into this. Read Bagdon's thread. Take Mach up on his offer of coaching. Read Kulor's thread to see a failure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GettingIt_2

Thound said:


> Well if she walks she walks. That's on her, but it's better than living in limbo like I have for the past 13 years. Feeling unwanted, unloved, undesirable, you name it.


Again, if this is the course of action OP desires, I don't argue that he is right to take it. I simply was pointing out that if his deepest desire is to reconcile, then he might want to try working with her in counseling first, especially since she is open to that. If that is too much of an emotional risk, then yes, he can do what you wished you had done. 

We all bring some of our personal situation into the advice we give. You speak from a place of unhappiness and despair and helplessness. My marriage was once there, too, but has (thankfully and with the hard work of both of us) moved beyond that place. 

Again, no guarantees in life--only possibilities. Only the OP can choose which possibilities he is willing to work towards or take risks for.


----------



## anchorwatch

LongWalk said:


> Her period of increased sexual desire was driven by her liminal being, not some rational self analyst. You can still tap into this. Read Bagdon's thread. Take Mach up on his offer of coaching. Read Kulor's thread to see a failure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure the OP is interested, LW. Maybe after the anger is gone,


----------



## bandit.45

All I'm saying us that, if she felt the disconnect was occurring, she should have approached OP years ago and said " Hey. We got a problem here." Then she should have shared her resentments and concerns and given the OP the opportunity to address them. 

From what I read of this thread, she never did that. She sounds like a typical uncommunicative WAW who waits until she has completely detached before letting her husband know she is unhappy. 

It's not fair and all the blame shifting and excuses don't make it right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thound

GettingIt said:


> Again, if this is the course of action OP desires, I don't argue that he is right to take it. I simply was pointing out that if his deepest desire is to reconcile, then he might want to try working with her in counseling first, especially since she is open to that. If that is too much of an emotional risk, then yes, he can do what you wished you had done.
> 
> We all bring some of our personal situation into the advice we give. You speak from a place of unhappiness and despair and helplessness. My marriage was once there, too, but has (thankfully and with the hard work of both of us) moved beyond that place.
> 
> Again, no guarantees in life--only possibilities. Only the OP can choose which possibilities he is willing to work towards or take risks for.


I agree however; in my situation, I'm the only one working on it. At least OP's wife has agreed to go to counseling. My wife refuses. Enough of my thread jack. Sorry.


----------



## Q tip

Couple of books for you to seriously read..

- What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Premenopause: Balance Your Hormones and Your Life From Thirty to Fifty
- Married Man Sex Life Primer


----------



## GettingIt_2

bandit.45 said:


> All I'm saying us that, if she felt the disconnect was occurring, she should have approached OP years ago and said " Hey. We got a problem here." Then she should have shared her resentments and concerns and given the OP the opportunity to address them.
> 
> From what I read of this thread, she never did that. She sounds like a typical uncommunicative WAW who waits until she has completely detached before letting her husband know she is unhappy.
> 
> It's not fair and all the blame shifting and excuses don't make it right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Assigning blame solely to one party is no better (or different, for that matter) than "blame shifting." 

From what I read on this thread, there are TWO people accountable for the disconnect here. Could the wife have spoken up sooner? Perhaps, if she recognized what was happening and where it was leading. But the OP acknowledges that he is not perfect either--that he himself had periods of questioning his love for his wife (did he notify her of that at the time?) and that he could be self-centered, distant, and say things he shouldn't have said. The actions of both individuals create a dynamic--not the actions of one individual. 

The salient point that I take from the OP's situation is that they are BOTH willing to work on their marriage in counseling. It sounds to me like they both have suffered a hit to the feelings of intimacy they once had--that doesn't mean their marriage is doomed. 

I do see danger in taking action that will create a self-fulfilling prophesy. He is hurt, I understand that, but to use that hurt to justify treating his wife with hostility instead of reaching out a hand towards her (while she reaches out one towards him) is to shut down an avenue that could lead to the rekindling of the lost intimacy. 

It is hard on TAM, I think, because we only ever get one side of a story. "Filling in the blanks" is tempting (especially when you think you see your own hurt reflected in that of the OP), but I do think it can do a disservice to people who are seeking advice. 

No marriage can improve and reconcile unless both parties are willing to examine their contributions to the dynamic, seek empathy within themselves for their partner's situation, and understand that feeling profoundly hurt can lead to rash actions that work counter to what is desired for the long run. 

OP, I wish you and your wife the best.


----------



## Wazza

bandit.45 said:


> All I'm saying us that, if she felt the disconnect was occurring, she should have approached OP years ago and said " Hey. We got a problem here." Then she should have shared her resentments and concerns and given the OP the opportunity to address them.
> 
> From what I read of this thread, she never did that. She sounds like a typical uncommunicative WAW who waits until she has completely detached before letting her husband know she is unhappy.
> 
> It's not fair and all the blame shifting and excuses don't make it right.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Different people handle this in different ways. She may have communicated but he didn't realise. Or she may have been just trying to hang on and cracked.

Her immediate willingness to undertake MC counts in her favour in my book.


----------



## TRy

doublep said:


> I have been reading up on this: "ilybinilwy"
> 
> Everything I read says it is most likely she is cheating on you. If she is in my case it would have to be an affair of extreme limited time and I mean almost none.


 If you read the infidelity threads you will see that saying that their spouse would not have the time to cheat is very common and usually proven wrong. I once read where a spouse discovered his wife’s affair when he learned that her job was in danger because she was missing too much work. When there is a will, cheaters will find a way. 



doublep said:


> Her texts are clean, no calls, no PC chatting or anything. The only thing I can think of is we are both kind of gaming freaks, we play online games. Could she be in an emotional affair online with someone she doesn't even know???
> 
> I see her playing, she does not hide the chatting. She gets on the online voice to talk to her game mates


 Wow, talk about denial. First you say that she does not have the time to cheat and that “Her texts are clean, no calls, no PC chatting or anything”, and then you say this. She could easily be in an emotional affair where she is disconnecting from you as she has or will soon take it physical. As a gamer she could be playing a game that has a text feature that allows her to chat with her lover while sitting in bed next to you without you even knowing it. Did you know that Word With Friends is one of the top cheater chat apps just for this reason?

When she told you that “She wants to live here together for the kids as partners. Nothing changes except our intimacy, which will not exist”, that was her clearly telling you that she no longer considers herself to be your wife. To her your marriage is officially over and is just a technicality. She now considers herself to be single and you to be only a roommates for the sake of the kids. To a cheater, now that you have been given fair warning of her single status, she can now rationalize to herself without guilt that she can take her relationship with the other man (OM) physical without it being cheating. She cannot be more clear to you about this, and when you do find her involved with another man, you will be shocked at her lack of remorse. She will in fact try to make you look foolish for thinking otherwise after she stated to you her clear intent.

Your marriage is over and you too are now single. The wife that you knew no longer exists. She now wants to keep you around as just a meal ticket. You must face these facts and act in your own long term self interest. Cheaters always want to cake eat and try to use the children as an excuse to keep you around to meet their financial needs. Do not buy into this. A fake marriage is not any healthier for your children than a divorce, and may in fact be worse. Now that she has a job, and you do not make as much money as you have in the past, now is the best time alimony wise to divorce and find someone that want to be your wife.

Sorry that you are here. Although she will try to tell you otherwise, you did not deserve this. There is someone out there that would wake up every morning thanking God that they were allowed to find you in their life. Every day that you stay in your current non-marriage is another day that you waste in finding this good person. Be well and good luck.


----------



## barbados

doublep said:


> *What is odd, a few months back she got really sexual for about a month or so, it was a first. She wanted sex a lot... Then this???*


OP, the above coupled with getting the ILYBNILWY speech are two of THE MOST COMMON signs from cheaters.

The sex thing happens because they get an initial charge from being with (or the thought of being with) someone else. So then they go hyper sexual with the BS. Then, once the A goes physical, sex with BS goes to zero or close. This does not happen with every A, but its not uncommon.


----------



## doublep

Wow, a lot of good posts... I have to admit, the increased sex only a few months ago to this 180 is shocking and leads one to believe there is some form of cheating going on.

Yet... Our whole discussion about 5-6 months ago about pre-menopause and how she was feeling different, extremely emotional, angry, then sad, etc makes me pause. She would get red heat rashes on her face.....

I don't want to do the wrong thing here and I don't want to stay in a loveless marriage. I deserve better and so does she. My 15 year old daughter made me promise I would not leave. My babies are my everything.....

Good lord, I am lost.


----------



## Machiavelli

OP, like I said, your wife is up to no good. What you've basically agreed to, without realizing it, or even discussing it, is for your wife to go outside the marriage for sex. This is how women see an "in-house separation" which is what you have.

Letter carriers do have time for sex. Not as much as they did in the 60's when my cousin was getting all kinds of action on his route, but all those stories are not just stories.

Plus, you've been away from home for 12 hour days for many months. Your wife had enough time then to get to know the whole town.

Since adultery is your deal breaker, you need to concentrate on proving that or crossing it off. Put a VAR in her car under the drivers seat, GPS the car, get into whatever internet stuff she's doing and see who and how she's talking.

Meanwhile, you start getting in top shape. Nothing less than a six pack is your goal. Change your hairstyle and facial hair. Get a newer, better wardrobe. The idea is to dress like a guy who is 30 and makes 3X your top salary ever. It can be done, look around on the internet. Get a single man's ride. Chopper, mustang, vintage, whatever. 

All that is to up your SMV, your wife will viscerally understand what you are doing and this builds attraction. In the unlikely event it turns out there is no adultery yet, you have a slight chance to attract her back, if other women are all over you. If adultery is present or you can't bring her back in, you'll still have women all over you.

Make the changes and start investigating. Don't be a chump. See an attorney.


----------



## Catherine602

With more info, this is what I think. 

I don't think this is the time to abandon her. She has been your rock for the last two years. Now she is having difficulty and you are not even a soft pillow for her to rest her weary head. Even rocks erode. 

She could have viewed the business failure as your fault. She could have doubted your innocence. She didn't and still does not. According to your post, she has not once blamed you. 

She believed in you and still does. However, the first sign of her weariness meets a sense of entitlement and castigation to the man who she has been a rock. 

Your wife did what she should do as a wife, for better or worse. Two years of troubles, a job that is postal, work she did not want to do and she is still you main support. 

That is a great deal to expect. She cannot possibly be as strong as you think. You assume she is and that justifies your inability to support her now. 

Have you considered that she is weary now and that she is your wife not your mother. She needs a husband who is willing to sacrifice and support her in her time of need. Where is he. 

Reflect a bit. Why can't you support her now, give her at lest as much as she has given you? Why is she the only strong one in the relationship? Have you drained her dry and then want even more? 

She may well find someone who will support her emotionally. She is not a dime a dozen, you just lucked out on your first go around. You got a very good woman so you need to step it up. Be more like her.


----------



## Catherine602

Is it good advice or does it feed into your sense of entitlement and lack of appreciation? She is worth nothing to you now? You did not think that when you needed her to believe in you. 

Really? I cant believe you think you deserve better. Why is that? I think she deserves better than an ungrateful, entitled man. I have no doubt she could easily find a man who would cherish a woman like her. 

You have gotten more out of her than many men get from their wives and you are still grousing. Some men believe that woman are disposable and you can easily get another one. If they don't give as much as you think you are entitled to. 

You know better, right? You know you will search far and wide and not find one of her ilk. No woman are not like buses. It's too bad you will lose her to find that out. But, do her a favor and D her and you will see.

You'll get women to have sex with you, if that is how you measure your manhood. However, while you are being a man, you'll not find a woman who believes in you like your wife. 

Why don't you show her your thread. Let her know how much you appreciate her continued support. That may solve your problem, you'll get the D without even trying.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> With more info, this is what I think.
> 
> I don't think this is the time to abandon her. She has been your rock for the last two years. Now she is having difficulty and you are not even a soft pillow for her to rest her weary head. Even rocks erode.
> 
> She could have viewed the business failure as your fault. She could have doubted your innocence. She didn't and still does not. According to your post, she has not once blamed you.
> 
> She believed in you and still does. However, the first sign of her weariness meets a sense of entitlement and castigation to the man who she has been a rock.
> 
> Your wife did what she should do as a wife, for better or worse. Two years of troubles, a job that is postal, work she did not want to do and she is still you main support.
> 
> That is a great deal to expect. She cannot possibly be as strong as you think. You assume she is and that justifies your inability to support her now.
> 
> Have you considered that she is weary now and that she is your wife not your mother. She needs a husband who is willing to sacrifice and support her in her time of need. Where is he.
> 
> Reflect a bit. Why can't you support her now, give her at lest as much as she has given you? Why is she the only strong one in the relationship? Have you drained her dry and then want even more?
> 
> She may well find someone who will support her emotionally. She is not a dime a dozen, you just lucked out on your first go around. You got a very good woman so you need to step it up. Be more like her.


This I have to disagree with. I have given plenty as well over the years.

- Her Mom got dementia a few years ago, I took her in the home, paid for her care, supported my wife and helped 100% with it.
- Here sister lost her job and needed a place to stay with her 2 young kids, I had just finished my music room I had waited years for. I gave it to my sister in law and her kids knowing having her around with no money would mess with my wife and I's personal time... But I did it because my Wife is very close with her sister and I like my wife happy.
- I NEVER manage her time. She ALWAYS had a life, I am not one of those husbands who keeps tabs, demands she be home when I get home or not to join any clubs or whatever... 
- Weekends I would get up with the babies to give her time off as I know raising babies is so hard.
- I put her 1st in everything I did.

Now... She also did the same for me, this is why this is so shocking. So now, these last few years I need more of the attention than normal, I need her support more than ever she bails????? She quits?? At this time!!??

It seems pure evil to me.


----------



## Machiavelli

doublep said:


> Now... She also did the same for me, this is why this is so shocking. So now, these last few years I need more of the attention than normal, I need her support more than ever she bails????? She quits?? At this time!!??
> 
> It seems pure evil to me.


Evil? Mostly just biological. Women's sexual lives are run mostly by their autonomic reproductive programs. You just need to appeal to that. If you don't have any idea of what that is, read MMSLP.


----------



## doublep

Machiavelli said:


> Evil? Mostly just biological. Women's sexual lives are run mostly by their autonomic reproductive programs. You just need to appeal to that. If you don't have any idea of what that is, read MMSLP.


Maybe you are right...


----------



## Machiavelli

doublep said:


> Maybe you are right...


There's no question about it.


----------



## Catherine602

doublep said:


> This I have to disagree with. I have given plenty as well over the years.
> 
> - Her Mom got dementia a few years ago, I took her in the home, paid for her care, supported my wife and helped 100% with it.
> - Here sister lost her job and needed a place to stay with her 2 young kids, I had just finished my music room I had waited years for. I gave it to my sister in law and her kids knowing having her around with no money would mess with my wife and I's personal time... But I did it because my Wife is very close with her sister and I like my wife happy.
> - I NEVER manage her time. She ALWAYS had a life, I am not one of those husbands who keeps tabs, demands she be home when I get home or not to join any clubs or whatever...
> - Weekends I would get up with the babies to give her time off as I know raising babies is so hard.
> - I put her 1st in everything I did.
> 
> Now... She also did the same for me, this is why this is so shocking. So now, these last few years I need more of the attention than normal, I need her support more than ever she bails????? She quits?? At this time!!??
> 
> It seems pure evil to me.


She needs you now. That's all - she needs you now. 

You are the one who bailed. You yourself said she has physical symptoms. You quickly dismissed that to get to your entitlement issues. Did you ask her to see a doctor or get her an appointment? I'll bet she would have done that for you. 

Did you tell her that you think she is evil? I can't imagine being so dishonest as to accept her support and not tell her how much you dislike her at the first sign of trouble on her part. 

Be brave - show her the thread, let her know how you really feel. She is not enough. She has not done enough for you. Because you deserve more. 

She made as many sacrifices as you did with the list that you gave of your good deeds. So don't give yourself extra props.


----------



## Catherine602

You mean this is all about SEX. I did not realize that. My advice was meant for a man who loved his wife for the woman she is. 

If she had sex would that solve all of your problems?


----------



## barbados

doublep said:


> This I have to disagree with. I have given plenty as well over the years.
> 
> - Her Mom got dementia a few years ago, I took her in the home, paid for her care, supported my wife and helped 100% with it.
> - Here sister lost her job and needed a place to stay with her 2 young kids, I had just finished my music room I had waited years for. I gave it to my sister in law and her kids knowing having her around with no money would mess with my wife and I's personal time... But I did it because my Wife is very close with her sister and I like my wife happy.
> - I NEVER manage her time. She ALWAYS had a life, I am not one of those husbands who keeps tabs, demands she be home when I get home or not to join any clubs or whatever...
> - Weekends I would get up with the babies to give her time off as I know raising babies is so hard.
> - I put her 1st in everything I did.
> 
> Now... She also did the same for me, this is why this is so shocking. So now, these last few years I need more of the attention than normal, I need her support more than ever she bails????? She quits?? At this time!!??
> 
> It seems pure evil to me.



OP, If there was every a guy who needs to read No More Mr Nice Guy, its you.

You have put your wife on a pedestal in your mind. She does NOT belong there. NO PERSON DOES, Male or female. You also referred to her in an earlier post as "your queen".


----------



## Machiavelli

Which is why appealing to logic, reason, and accountability fall flat in these situations. This is why long discussions about the relationship never work with women, even though they think they want these kind of discussions. Actually, they just drive women away. They're a total turnoff. Deeds not words.

Women naturally cool to men over time, unless you personally get a certain amount of positive status reinforcement from other women, either by the way they interact with you (best) or comments they make to her. Women's status among women is largely based on what man they are married to. Hillary didn't divorce Bill over flagrant philandering because she knew her status could never be higher than wife of the president. That's as good as it gets for her.

When your business tanked, you take a big status hit in your wife's eyes. Especially true if other women gave negative feedback to her. Over time, this erodes her status and Briffault's Law comes into play.


----------



## Machiavelli

Catherine602 said:


> You mean this is all about SEX. I did not realize that. My advice was meant for a man who loved his wife for the woman she is.
> 
> If she had sex would that solve all of your problems?


Sex is what the human race is all about. Both Darwin and Moses agree.


----------



## Catherine602

Nice guys have a dark side. "The Two Faces of Nice Guys" would be a better book for him to read.


----------



## Machiavelli

Catherine602 said:


> Be brave - show her the thread, let her know how you really feel. She is not enough. She has not done enough for you. Because you deserve more.


No. Don't show her the thread. If you have to get relationship advice it proves to her you aren't her "soul mate" and you don't know her. Of course, she already believes that, since you haven't figured out your aren't her main man anymore.


----------



## Machiavelli

barbados said:


> OP, If there was every a guy who needs to read No More Mr Nice Guy, its you.
> 
> You have put your wife on a pedestal in your mind. She does NOT belong there. NO PERSON DOES, Male or female. You also referred to her in an earlier post as "your queen".


That wouldn't be bad if he saw himself as the Emperor, but I get the feeling he sees himself as the Royal Beta-Provider.


----------



## Catherine602

Machiavelli said:


> Sex is what the human race is all about. Both Darwin and Moses agree.


If only we all had the ability to pare thoughts down so adroitly. Life would be a Jackson Pollack piece.
Eyes in Heat


----------



## Wazza

Machiavelli said:


> There's no question about it.


No question? Really? Mach you are smarter than that. 

Summary of what I see:

1) You guys have been through hard times, there has been pressure. Both of you are human, you are entitled to imperfection.

2) She has gone through menopause. More turmoil in the mix.

3) There are some signs there that she may have feelings for someone else, and if so, yes she may have acted on them. Mach has a point here about how our sexuality drives us, but it is not absolute. Nor is the "Get a Harley, dress like a thirty year old" thing always wise. To me that's a way to have people laughing at your mid life crisis behind your back. Including some women. To me Mach doesn't separate enough what it takes to pull a woman for a one night stand vs a long relationship.

4) She is willing to go to counselling. To me that is a big positive. Someone who has given up on the marriage wouldn't do that.

You are getting a lot of ideas from a lot of people, and all of it reflects our experiences and knowledge, but none of it is necessarily true for you. FWIW, I think your wife's behaviour may be indicative of an affair or an attraction to another man, or it may be some other issue that needs to be resolved. Counselling is a good first step.

You will find many people on TAM who have been badly hurt. Their stories are a sage warning of what may happen, but you can also get so obsessed with worst case scenarios that you throw away a perfectly good marriage because you are doubting.


----------



## Catherine602

Machiavelli said:


> No. Don't show her the thread. If you have to get relationship advice it proves to her you aren't her "soul mate" and you don't know her. Of course, she already believes that, since you haven't figured out your aren't her main man anymore.


Yes, I agree, showing her this is perhaps too female?

He has balls, he should take them out of his pants pocket affix them to their rightful place and tell her. 

"You're evil. Why did you abandon me? Two years is not enough. You are strong and I am needy so you need to keep giving me. I deserve more than this, you don't. Why did you take away my sex. I D thee. GET OUT"


----------



## Machiavelli

Catherine602 said:


> If only we all thought so abstractly. Life would be a Jackson Pollack piece.


Why do you think men marry in the first place? 

To get frequent and exclusive sex, with a guarantee of legitimate offspring.


----------



## doublep

barbados said:


> OP, If there was every a guy who needs to read No More Mr Nice Guy, its you.
> 
> You have put your wife on a pedestal in your mind. She does NOT belong there. NO PERSON DOES, Male or female. You also referred to her in an earlier post as "your queen".


I have for sure... And what is funny is I am a very forward man in business. Meaning, besides my wife, I am pretty stern and set when I want something. I usually get what I want in life. If I lose, it's because the other person was exceptional.

Someone said it earlier... Maybe I am just still in love with the memory of her.


----------



## Catherine602

Machiavelli said:


> That wouldn't be bad if he saw himself as the Emperor, but I get the feeling he sees himself as the Royal Beta-Provider.


An Emperor is ok. A naked one.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

doublep said:


> That is the only reason I am here, because I believe her and she is willing to work on it. But Bandit is right, We as people, all of us, deserve what we want in life. I am not going to live in a sexless and emotionless marriage for long if I don't think there is any fixing it.


How long has your marriage been sexless? Has she now explicitly declared she will never make love to you again?


----------



## Catherine602

doublep said:


> I have for sure... And what is funny is I am a very forward man in business. Meaning, besides my wife, I am pretty stern and set when I want something. I usually get what I want in life. If I lose, it's because the other person was exceptional.
> 
> Someone said it earlier... Maybe I am just still in love with the memory of her.


I am glad you value yourself so highly. Maybe you are right. You deserve better than a mere postal worker for a wife. 

So why do you hesitate. Get rid of the evil in your life. You will have no problem getting 10 women or 1 woman 10X better than your wife.


----------



## Catherine602

Machiavelli said:


> Why do you think men marry in the first place?
> 
> To get frequent and exclusive sex, with a guarantee of legitimate offspring.


Come on Mac everyone knows that. 

Women are not fooled by the sex = connection bs. Do the words "All you want is sex" sound familiar? Women aren't as stupid as you think.


----------



## Machiavelli

Catherine602 said:


> An Emperor is ok. A naked one.


Yeah, the Emperor is the highest value male there is, and since the Emperor has no clothes, he's Emperor Everready.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

GettingIt said:


> Assigning blame solely to one party is no better (or different, for that matter) than "blame shifting."
> 
> From what I read on this thread, there are TWO people accountable for the disconnect here. Could the wife have spoken up sooner? Perhaps, if she recognized what was happening and where it was leading. But the OP acknowledges that he is not perfect either--that he himself had periods of questioning his love for his wife (did he notify her of that at the time?) and that he could be self-centered, distant, and say things he shouldn't have said. The actions of both individuals create a dynamic--not the actions of one individual.
> 
> The salient point that I take from the OP's situation is that they are BOTH willing to work on their marriage in counseling. It sounds to me like they both have suffered a hit to the feelings of intimacy they once had--that doesn't mean their marriage is doomed.
> 
> I do see danger in taking action that will create a self-fulfilling prophesy. He is hurt, I understand that, but to use that hurt to justify treating his wife with hostility instead of reaching out a hand towards her (while she reaches out one towards him) is to shut down an avenue that could lead to the rekindling of the lost intimacy.
> 
> It is hard on TAM, I think, because we only ever get one side of a story. "Filling in the blanks" is tempting (especially when you think you see your own hurt reflected in that of the OP), but I do think it can do a disservice to people who are seeking advice.
> 
> No marriage can improve and reconcile unless both parties are willing to examine their contributions to the dynamic, seek empathy within themselves for their partner's situation, and understand that feeling profoundly hurt can lead to rash actions that work counter to what is desired for the long run.
> 
> OP, I wish you and your wife the best.


Fair enough......when she told him this she was being honest. Now he should be honest. If he can listen to her detachment language she can take in his hostility and anger......those are also human emotions.


----------



## Machiavelli

Catherine602 said:


> Come on Mac everyone knows that.
> 
> Women are not fooled by the sex = connection bs. Do the words "All you want is sex" sound familiar? Women aren't as stupid as you think.


Of course that's what we want. We prefer sex with a side of love, but we'll take what we can get.


----------



## Wazza

Machiavelli said:


> Of course that's what we want. We prefer sex with a side of love, but we'll take what we can get.


Not all of us. It is just not that one dimensional or simple.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> With more info, this is what I think.
> 
> I don't think this is the time to abandon her. She has been your rock for the last two years. Now she is having difficulty and you are not even a soft pillow for her to rest her weary head. Even rocks erode.
> 
> She could have viewed the business failure as your fault. She could have doubted your innocence. She didn't and still does not. According to your post, she has not once blamed you.
> 
> She believed in you and still does. However, the first sign of her weariness meets a sense of entitlement and castigation to the man who she has been a rock.
> 
> Your wife did what she should do as a wife, for better or worse. Two years of troubles, a job that is postal, work she did not want to do and she is still you main support.
> 
> That is a great deal to expect. She cannot possibly be as strong as you think. You assume she is and that justifies your inability to support her now.
> 
> Have you considered that she is weary now and that she is your wife not your mother. She needs a husband who is willing to sacrifice and support her in her time of need. Where is he.
> 
> Reflect a bit. Why can't you support her now, give her at lest as much as she has given you? Why is she the only strong one in the relationship? Have you drained her dry and then want even more?
> 
> She may well find someone who will support her emotionally. She is not a dime a dozen, you just lucked out on your first go around. You got a very good woman so you need to step it up. Be more like her.


She is not simply "having difficulty" - she told him she is done being his wife. Though coparenting
and living together is is OK with her. Except for her willing to go to counseling she has basically told him their marriage is over. 

I doubt she's a monster but let's not give her sainthood either. It's not really clear how "good" a woman she is.


----------



## Catherine602

I am making light and I don't really mean to. 

The sad thing is Doublep you don't understand yourself. Your wife is not evil and she does not understand you as a man either. She did withdraw when you need her but she does not see it that way. 

Do you think that she realizes that you need her love, emotional closeness and expression of her love for you more than ever? Does she know that sex does that for you and that you are lonely and devastated that you have been essentially set adrift? I don't think she does. 

You pointed out what you do and who you are. I don't think a high quality woman lil her would stay with a man who did not match her. You don't need to prove that you should have her love now. It's just a fact that you do. 

Thats why you are so angry and think she is evil. Don't act on your thoughts now. I think you need to understand yourself where this is coming from. You don't want to say anything that you will feel bad about latter.

Don't waste your time in anger. Get it under control and go and get your wife. She needs you as much as you need her. If there is someone else that she is thinking about, nip it in the bud. 

26 years and a history like you have together is worth a great deal of effort. Apply your business acumen to getting your marriage back on the rails.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> You mean this is all about SEX. I did not realize that. My advice was meant for a man who loved his wife for the woman she is.
> 
> If she had sex would that solve all of your problems?


You are implying that sex is not an important need in life and in marriage.....


----------



## Catherine602

nuclearnightmare said:


> She is not simply "having difficulty" - she told him she is done being his wife. Though coparenting
> and living together is is OK with her. Except for her willing to go to counseling she has basically told him their marriage is over.
> 
> I doubt she's a monster but let's not give her sainthood either. It's not really clear how "good" a woman she is.


People say things they don't mean in a moment of despair. It hurts but a centering strength is needed. Some perspective. is needed. He said his wife was evil. Should she leave him over that? 

She was there for him, now one crisis renders her beyond redemption? If their relationship is like a tree with a deep trap root then the loss of all of the leaves will not kill it. 

People are so quick to give up. There is so little constancy, and emotional depth.


----------



## Catherine602

nuclearnightmare said:


> You are implying that sex is not an important need in life and in marriage.....


Did I? You expect me to say that because you think that is what women think. Don't ever let reality impose on your beliefs.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Doublep

This board is not enough for you right now. You need to confide all this with a trusted friend or relative. Otherwise you are both isolated and shell shocked. 15 yolds and 9 yold not yet qualified to take on such a role.......


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> Did I? You expect me to say that because you think that is what women think. Don't ever let reality impose on your beliefs.


Nope. It's not my beliefs. Am talking about your beliefs. Your words are dripping with that implication. So clarify...that's all


----------



## Catherine602

Machiavelli said:


> Of course that's what we want. We prefer sex with a side of love, but we'll take what we can get.


You're aiming too low. But we are all human. Women aim low too so I understand why you take what is thrown your way.


----------



## Catherine602

nuclearnightmare said:


> Nope. It's not my beliefs. Am talking about your beliefs. Your words are dripping with that implication. So clarify...that's all


I don't need to clarify. Your perceptive powers overwhelm me. I need say no more.


----------



## Catherine602

Oh while I am thinking of it OP. 

You do know that postal workers are not always out delivering mail. They need to go into the office to sort their mail. I assume there is more than one person in the postal facility.


----------



## bandit.45

I have never heard such stupid feminist propaganda in my life. I mean really. Couple that with Machiavellis telling him he's basically a dweeb beta. Jesus H you people take the cake. 





_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

bandit.45 said:


> I have never heard such stupid feminist propaganda only life. I mean really.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really 

Yes, you have. You wouldn't be so clever at identifying stupidity.

A very smart man said "Stupid is as stupid does".


----------



## GettingIt_2

nuclearnightmare said:


> Fair enough......when she told him this she was being honest. Now he should be honest. If he can listen to her detachment language she can take in his hostility and anger......those are also human emotions.


OP can tell his wife whatever he wants, revealing what ever emotions he want to reveal. He should simply be prepared to receive the consequences of her reaction. I don't think his wife acted rashly or out of impulse and passion when she revealed that she was feeling detached. I think she probably pondered how and when to tell him what she told him, and I think she told him with sincerity. Perhaps OP would be wise to reflect before speaking of his own feelings as well. He does not HAVE to, he is not OBLIGATED to, I only point out that doing so might serve his long term desires and interests. 

If he'd rather have the immediate gratification of venting his anger and hurt, then of course that is his prerogative. 

But regret is a sad thing. And you cannot unsay things.


----------



## TRy

Catherine602 said:


> You mean this is all about SEX. I did not realize that. My advice was meant for a man who loved his wife for the woman she is.
> 
> If she had sex would that solve all of your problems?


 If it were just about sex then maybe you would be right, but it is not just about sex. It is about no sex, no intimacy, and her not being in love with him. As for her being there for him, and him owing her this break from the marriage, I call bull. He worked his butt off so that he could provide for her, her mother, her sister, and her sister's children, and when he finally hits hard times and she needs to get a job outside the home, she bails on him. This is much more than just about sex, it is her telling him that she has ended the marraige and wanting an in-house separation.


----------



## weightlifter

1. Could someone post my standard 007 instruction set? At work on a tablet. Not going on comp tonight which means 12 hours at least for me.
2. We have had too many people confidently state no affair only to be proven wrong. Just Ask squeakr for example.
3. Stop asking about affairs and look around. If she is cheating you are only making her more wary.
4. This could be anything from nothing to monkey vining to EA to dwarves and a hockey team. I have no gut feel beyond someone at the least is sniffing around her and she is not discouraging it.
5. Not all affairs are 24/7 sex fests.


----------



## doublep

nuclearnightmare said:


> How long has your marriage been sexless? Has she now explicitly declared she will never make love to you again?


Here are her exact words:

"I am just not in love with you..."
"I am done with it"
"I love you but not like in a husband way"
"I feel bad if we live together for the kids because I know how intimate and sexual you are"


----------



## nuclearnightmare

GettingIt said:


> OP can tell his wife whatever he wants, revealing what ever emotions he want to reveal. He should simply be prepared to receive the consequences of her reaction. I don't think his wife acted rashly or out of impulse and passion when she revealed that she was feeling detached. I think she probably pondered how and when to tell him what she told him, and I think she told him with sincerity. Perhaps OP would be wise to reflect before speaking of his own feelings as well. He does not HAVE to, he is not OBLIGATED to, I only point out that doing so might serve his long term desires and interests.
> 
> If he'd rather have the immediate gratification of venting his anger and hurt, then of course that is his prerogative.
> 
> But regret is a sad thing. And you cannot unsay things.


Your advice has merit but it's my impression that she needs it more than he does. She has already said things she might not be able to take back.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> I don't need to clarify. Your perceptive powers overwhelm me. I need say no more.


Just talking about that one post. But you're correct, you dont have to. Thought you might want to.


----------



## doublep

I will also say my wife was never a real sexual person even from the beginning. So, I spent a lot of my 26 years chasing her for it, she never held back completely but it was not easy and I am a very sexual person.

I do feel I have to say this as well, I dont know how important it is now but it may be a "Maybe I should have known" moment years ago?

When we were 19 years old, we had already been dating for 4 years exclusively and then out of know where I got the same thing... "I don't love you anymore" and she broke up with me. It hurt but we werent married and so for a month or two I tried to do stupid things like buy her flowers, leave love letters, etc... None of it worked.

Well, she then got a new boyfriend and so I got a girlfriend. After about 4 months a part I had completely moved on. She was good friends with my sister so I would see her at my moms house from time to time and I didn't care I was with my new girlfriend and my wife saw her as well.... 

I will never forget it was New Years Eve at 2:00 am and I get a random call from my wife.... I was shocked. She had said she made a big mistake and wanted to get back together. I told her "It took me 2 months to get over you and now you want back?" - I said sorry, too late.... Well, she now persisted. Calling, telling me she wont stop until she gets me back and honestly, I was still in love with her.

She got me back and within a year I went into the military, we got married and started our life together in Germany. That was 21 years ago. Should I have known then or is that a stretch?


----------



## GettingIt_2

nuclearnightmare said:


> Your advice has merit but it's my impression that she needs it more than he does. She has already said things she might not be able to take back.


Perhaps; but I don't think she said what she said rashly. I think she said what she said with forethought and measured emotion. The OP owes it to himself to do the same. 

Would she have been better off keeping her feelings to herself for years and years, letting the OP wonder what had become of the intimacy? Spinning his wheels trying to figure it all out? She was honest with her feelings, she has expressed a willingness to go to MC. OP, if he wants to work on his marriage, will have to accept her feelings for now. If he thinks there is nothing to work on, or if he finds evidence of infidelity, then he can choose to physically separate and divorce. She laid it out for him, now he has to decide. She can't make him stay in a marriage that he feels is unacceptable.


----------



## tom67

doublep said:


> I will also say my wife was never a real sexual person even from the beginning. So, I spent a lot of my 26 years chasing her for it, she never held back completely but it was not easy and I am a very sexual person.
> 
> I do feel I have to say this as well, I dont know how important it is now but it may be a "Maybe I should have known" moment years ago?
> 
> When we were 19 years old, we had already been dating for 4 years exclusively and then out of know where I got the same thing... "I don't love you anymore" and she broke up with me. It hurt but we werent married and so for a month or two I tried to do stupid things like buy her flowers, leave love letters, etc... None of it worked.
> 
> Well, she then got a new boyfriend and so I got a girlfriend. After about 4 months a part I had completely moved on. She was good friends with my sister so I would see her at my moms house from time to time and I didn't care I was with my new girlfriend and my wife saw her as well....
> 
> I will never forget it was New Years Eve at 2:00 am and I get a random call from my wife.... I was shocked. She had said she made a big mistake and wanted to get back together. I told her "It took me 2 months to get over you and now you want back?" - I said sorry, too late.... Well, she now persisted. Calling, telling me she wont stop until she gets me back and honestly, I was still in love with her.
> 
> She got me back and within a year I went into the military, we got married and started our life together in Germany. That was 21 years ago. Should I have known then or is that a stretch?


This is exactly what Mach was talking about.
Notice how when you moved on she wanted you back.
It's all in the limbic brain.
And as far as feminism
Feminism and the Disposable Male - YouTube

Circumcision, Divorce and Male Disposability - Paul Elam on Freedomain Radio - YouTube


----------



## Catherine602

This is quite different from what you said originally. You are letting your wife do all of the deciding.

Do you want to have an in house separation? How long are you willing to live in limbo not knowing when she is going to pull the plug. 

You don't have to figure everything out in a week. But there are things you need to plan. First, find out discretely if there is someone else. It may just be someone she met with whom she is sharing her problems. 

Second, you need to think about what you want. Are you OK with living with your wife on these terms. Third, have you arranged the MC yet. What are your goals of MC? It can't be open ended gripe sessions. Do you want to work towards R or D. Are you on the same page. 

Something is going on and you don't know what it is yet.


----------



## anchorwatch

*Re: Re: Wife of 26 years:*



Catherine602 said:


> Something is going on and you don't know what it is yet.


Truest thing that's been said in this thread. 

Ty, Catherine.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> Do you want to have an in house separation? .


No... Absolutely not but I promised my daughter I would not leave. I actually feel since she is the one that lost the love, she should be moving out. Yet... There is a part of me that knows she has always had these issues about cutting things off that cause her pain... The last thing she said was: "Maybe am I cutting you out because I cant stand to see you in anymore pain" - At first I was like BS! But this is how she had handled things in the past, just cut it off...



Catherine602 said:


> How long are you willing to live in limbo not knowing when she is going to pull the plug.


Not long... I am already making plans to move on. Taking sex and intimacy away from me is cruel enough but then having to play the "everything is normal" game on top of that... No.

I am willing to work on it through a MC but I will not let this go on. At some point I will end it completely and I told her, once I am gone... I am gone for good.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> Something is going on and you don't know what it is yet.


Agreed... I can not find anything as far as cheating (Yes I know that doesn't mean its not there). I am sure I will find out soon enough but as hours go by I get more and more set it what I am going to do and that is give it a little time and then move on completely....


----------



## Trickster

Doublep-

My wife did the same way before we were married. I wanted the marriage, house, children. My wife didn't. So we split. 

She moved out.

I bought a house, started to date a couple women. I moved on. All was good.

Then she started calling me asking if I was dating and before I knew but, she moved back in with me. I bought an older home as a fixer upper and she didn't like it. Somehow, I ended up selling my home and went back to renting an apartment. Luckily, I made a profit on the home...


Somewhere in their we got married and had a daughter.
After 10 years of my wife being a SAHM, she started to go back to work. She quit pretty quick for that first job, but our marriage has been crap since...Don't know if she resented me making her go back to work...


I read so many books to improve our marriage and nothing worked. Then,
recently, I got the same thing...ILYBNILWY...I think I felt the same as you. 

I blamed her for a lot of it. Why didn't she tell me sooner? She was hoping that she would Bevin love with me and I was hoping the would improve. She was afraid I would leave.

My wife wasn't having an affair. She is just Asexual. All of our marriage sex was bad until several years ago when I became assertive. About the same time I wanted her to get a job... For several years, she complied with the sex I wanted until it became too much. I thought more sex would improve intimacy. I know that was stupid...

It forced the truth out of her.

She wants to stay married, wants our companionship/friendship, and keep an intact home for our daughter.

I stopped trying. I don't care anymore.

We agreed to have an open marriage. 

Now, she is more affectionate than ever before. I am not afraid to leave anymore...I talk to other women all the time and I am developing friendships with them.

Now my wife acts like she never said anything. She acts like she loves me...she just doesn't say it. She never did before. I don't expect it now.

She has a job and she doesn't seem resentful like I initially thought. I think she feels good about herself now.

Work on the 180 and detatch emotionally. You don't have to D right now. You have many years together. Don't toss it right now. She may be going through emotional menopausal issues. Find out what is going on with her. You say you love her. Just don't do anything out of anger...


----------



## Catherine602

You don't need to do everything at once so go slowly and deliberately. She may be defaulting to automatic behavior in the face of stress. Will she want to date other men while you are separated?

If that is the case, it may be something she needs to work out in IC. That is something she needs to do if the plan is to R. If not, this will come up again. 

Why is she punishing you? It seems so strange to say those things and then to want to stay married. Not only that but stay in the same house with no end game. 

She knows you, she knows that you are a sexual person. What does she think you are supposed to do? The situation is untenable. 

I know you have a lot to think about and it may be too early to have everything figured out. At the very lest, consider what you think is reasonable to do.


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> Doublep-
> 
> My wife did the same way before we were married. I wanted the marriage, house, children. My wife didn't. So we split.
> 
> She moved out.
> 
> I bought a house, started to date a couple women. I moved on. All was good.
> 
> Then she started calling me asking if I was dating and before I knew but, she moved back in with me. I bought an older home as a fixer upper and she didn't like it. Somehow, I ended up selling my home and went back to renting an apartment. Luckily, I made a profit on the home...
> 
> 
> Somewhere in their we got married and had a daughter.
> After 10 years of my wife being a SAHM, she started to go back to work. She quit pretty quick for that first job, but our marriage has been crap since...Don't know if she resented me making her go back to work...
> 
> 
> I read so many books to improve our marriage and nothing worked. Then,
> recently, I got the same thing...ILYBNILWY...I think I felt the same as you.
> 
> I blamed her for a lot of it. Why didn't she tell me sooner? She was hoping that she would Bevin love with me and I was hoping the would improve. She was afraid I would leave.
> 
> My wife wasn't having an affair. She is just Asexual. All of our marriage sex was bad until several years ago when I became assertive. About the same time I wanted her to get a job... For several years, she complied with the sex I wanted until it became too much. I thought more sex would improve intimacy. I know that was stupid...
> 
> It forced the truth out of her.
> 
> She wants to stay married, wants our companionship/friendship, and keep an intact home for our daughter.
> 
> I stopped trying. I don't care anymore.
> 
> We agreed to have an open marriage.
> 
> Now, she is more affectionate than ever before. I am not afraid to leave anymore...I talk to other women all the time and I am developing friendships with them.
> 
> Now my wife acts like she never said anything. She acts like she loves me...she just doesn't say it. She never did before. I don't expect it now.
> 
> She has a job and she doesn't seem resentful like I initially thought. I think she feels good about herself now.
> 
> Work on the 180 and detatch emotionally. You don't have to D right now. You have many years together. Don't toss it right now. She may be going through emotional menopausal issues. Find out what is going on with her. You say you love her. Just don't do anything out of anger...


She sounds like my wife, really. My wife has always been "different" than other woman. She is not emotional, she is not a girly girl (meaning she would rather fix a shed than paint her nails), she is feminine though, I don't want to give the wrong impression. 

We have always had sexual problems... Getting it. When it did happen it was fantastic, we always were good at it. I am not going to do anything rash but at this time of my life, with all that has happened to us, I don't have the strength to chase her for long....


----------



## nuclearnightmare

OP


I agree that the decent thing for your wife to do would be to move out temporarily. Have you asked her to?


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> You don't need to do everything at once so go slowly and deliberately. She may be defaulting to automatic behavior in the face of stress. Will she want to date other men while you are separated?
> 
> If that is the case, it may be something she needs to work out in IC. That is something she needs to do if the plan is to R. If not, this will come up again.
> 
> Why is she punishing you? It seems so strange to say those things and then to want to stay married. Not only that but stay in the same house with no end game.
> 
> She knows you, she knows that you are a sexual person. What does she think you are supposed to do? The situation is not tenable.
> 
> I know you have a lot to think about and it may be too early to have everything figured out. At the very lest, consider what you think is reasonable to do.


No, she wants nothing to do with men, including me. She has always told me before that if it wasn't for me, she could live perfectly happy alone. She was never boy crazy or a man chaser. I was her 1st real boyfriend even though we were 15...

I don't know why she is punishing me, maybe she just truly lost all love for me. It can happen I guess. I dont feel the same, I love her more than life but I can not make her feel what she doesn't. The timing of this is going to make her look like a monster. The few people that know here are already telling me they think she is evil for this at this point...

She said to me: "You know I can live without intimacy but I don't think you can and I understand that is not fair too you." - She is an amazing woman, she really is that is why this is hard. Then again maybe she is evil and I am just an in love sucker....


----------



## doublep

nuclearnightmare said:


> OP
> 
> 
> I agree that the decent thing for your wife to do would be to move out temporarily. Have you asked her to?


I have not but I am leaning more that way the longer this goes without resolution. She has the love issues, she can move along. Why should I go?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

doublep said:


> She sounds like my wife, really. My wife has always been "different" than other woman. She is not emotional, she is not a girly girl (meaning she would rather fix a shed than paint her nails), she is feminine though, I don't want to give the wrong impression.
> 
> We have always had sexual problems... Getting it. When it did happen it was fantastic, we always were good at it. I am not going to do anything rash but at this time of my life, with all that has happened to us, I don't have the strength to chase her for long....


Don't chase her at all.....


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> She sounds like my wife, really. My wife has always been "different" than other woman. She is not emotional, she is not a girly girl (meaning she would rather fix a shed than paint her nails), she is feminine though, I don't want to give the wrong impression.
> 
> We have always had sexual problems... Getting it. When it did happen it was fantastic, we always were good at it. I am not going to do anything rash but at this time of my life, with all that has happened to us, I don't have the strength to chase her for long....


Same,

Wife never gets a Mani/Pedi. She never gets emotional either. I am the one who cries watching the Hallmark channel.


My wife has never been a sexual person...never

I knewvthisvwhen I first met her and she was a virgin at 25. She wasn't saving herself. She just didn't have a desire for sex, even in college.

I agree with Catherine... Give it time..

Did I just agree with catherine.? OMG


----------



## barbados

doublep said:


> _We have always had sexual problems... Getting it_. When it did happen it was fantastic, we always were good at it. I am not going to do anything rash but at this time of my life, with all that has happened to us, I don't have the strength to chase her for long....


So was the basic problem sexual frequency ? 

How often were you guys normally having sex ?


----------



## Trickster

double

My wife didn't want to move out and didn't want me to move out either...She wanted to and continues to want to stay married.


----------



## doublep

barbados said:


> So was the basic problem sexual frequency ?
> 
> How often were you guys normally having sex ?


Problem was I always had to chase her. It was almost like "Fine, lets go" - that is how it was 80% of the time, once in a great while she would come to me. At its best we would have sex 2-3 times a week.... Worst 1-2 a month with me pushing hard for it.

The sex itself was great because once she was in, she was good....


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> You don't need to do everything at once so go slowly and deliberately. She may be defaulting to automatic behavior in the face of stress. Will she want to date other men while you are separated?
> 
> If that is the case, it may be something she needs to work out in IC. That is something she needs to do if the plan is to R. If not, this will come up again.
> 
> Why is she punishing you? It seems so strange to say those things and then to want to stay married. Not only that but stay in the same house with no end game.
> 
> She knows you, she knows that you are a sexual person. What does she think you are supposed to do? The situation is untenable.
> 
> I know you have a lot to think about and it may be too early to have everything figured out. At the very lest, consider what you think is reasonable to do.


:iagree:
Hey....you're back on track now!


----------



## Machiavelli

Catherine602 said:


> You're aiming too low. But we are all human. Women aim low too so I understand why you take what is thrown your way.


Women throw a lot of sex my way, more than I can or want to catch, but I can still have sympathy for those not so bountifully blessed.


----------



## Catherine602

nuclearnightmare said:


> Just talking about that one post. But you're correct, you dont have to. Thought you might want to.


My comment was aimed at Mac. He annoys me sometimes so I do say sarcastic things.  Sorry.


----------



## Machiavelli

bandit.45 said:


> I have never heard such stupid feminist propaganda in my life. I mean really. Couple that with Machiavellis telling him he's basically a dweeb beta. Jesus H you people take the cake.


Nothing wrong with being Beta. OP just needs to realize her behavior suggests she's already gone outside the marriage, due to all the usual bio-drivers and her rationalization hamster. He needs to confirm that and drop the hammer.


----------



## Catherine602

nuclearnightmare said:


> :iagree:
> Hey....you're back on track now....


I have consistent tracks Nuclear. One wheel may slip off sometimes when I'm pissed but no total derailments.


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> No, she wants nothing to do with men, including me. She has always told me before that if it wasn't for me, she could live perfectly happy alone. She was never boy crazy or a man chaser. I was her 1st real boyfriend even though we were 15...
> 
> 
> * My wife was never boy crazy either. She was happy with her female friends. I was my wife's first bf as well. I was the first man to not expect sex. I I waited over a year before we had piv.*
> 
> 
> I don't know why she is punishing me, maybe she just truly lost all love for me. It can happen I guess. I dont feel the same, I love her more than life but I can not make her feel what she doesn't. The timing of this is going to make her look like a monster. The few people that know here are already telling me they think she is evil for this at this point...
> 
> *I don't believe she is punishing you...I am sure she loves you. Just not in the way you love her. I definitely understand that. You don't see her as a monster, do you?
> *
> 
> She said to me: "You know I can live without intimacy but I don't think you can and I understand that is not fair too you." - She is an amazing woman, she really is that is why this is hard. Then again maybe she is evil and I am just an in love sucker...
> 
> * My wife is sweet like that as well. That's why she agreed to the open marriage. I almost think it's a trap...
> 
> Maybe she wants you to be the one to make the decision. Then you will be the one to walk away. Not her
> 
> *


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Catherine602 said:


> I have consistent tracks Nuclear. One wheel may slip off sometimes when I'm pissed but no total derailments.


I'm teasing you.


----------



## Catherine602

Machiavelli said:


> Women throw a lot of sex my way, more than I can or want to catch, but I can still have sympathy for those not so bountifully blessed.


You're annoying right down to the marrow Mac.


----------



## Machiavelli

doublep said:


> Problem was I always had to chase her. It was almost like "Fine, lets go" - that is how it was 80% of the time, once in a great while she would come to me. At its best we would have sex 2-3 times a week.... Worst 1-2 a month with me pushing hard for it.
> 
> The sex itself was great because once she was in, she was good....


It is the natural order of things for the male, as the natural aggressor, to initiate sex 60-80% of the time. It's a problem when the husband gets rejected or the wife never initiates. Both of those together is a big problem.


----------



## AVR1962

Sounds to me like your wife is being honest in expressing her feelings to you. I said something similar to my husband not long ago, we've been together for 25 years and he took it the same way you are. You are taking this personally but she is simply expressing her confused feelings. I definitely see this as workable, she just needs your support, your understanding for her own confusion. Stepping away on your part and taking it as an emotional hit against you will only make the situation worse. 

I would not say this has anything to do with another an, nor would I say it has to do with menopause. While it does happen this early for some, I would not say it is average.

I think marriage and our feelings towards one another, our interests, our goals, our thoughts for life all go thru stages. Sometimes we ourselves do not even understand the various stages we are going thru. It could be that she sees herself at 40 and wondering what happened to her life, what does her future hold, where is she going, she might be asking herself who she is. Women spend so much time caught up in the lives of their children, their families and many times lose themselves. I can't speak for her, I am only guessing, but it is possible she is going thru something like this and just is lost in hr own thoughts. 

Don't jump to any conclusions here. Give her support, if she will talk to you that is great but try to listen without taking things personally. She might just need to work her thoughts out in her head and if you can be there for her, great!


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

If you did D, could your wife manage financially with her income if child custody was equal...no child support? You may still have to give some type of alimony.

Could you manage your career and take care of the young one? You did say you work long hours.


For me, my wife has the perfect mom hours. While she was a SAHM, I was able to build my business. If we D and had equal custody, I would have to adjust my hours and miss out on some work. She supported me for that for many years...Emotionally...

I love my wife and I want her to be somewhat independent or more....I want her to want to improve her income as well. My schedule is all over the place. Some days, I work 10 hours days some days just 3 or so. I even work a few hours on occasional Sundays. That would change in a D.

Think of how you life will change when that happens. I do feel eventually you will be the one to leave. You will want what is best for her and your children. You will give up the majority of you income to make your kids lives the best it can be. You will work many many more hours to insure your kids maintain the same quality of life. I think you would give your wife what she wanted during the D. You will do that because your wife will be understanding and nice about it and you will feel guilty to some degree...

Another scenero would be you get full custody, she moves out. You don't ask for child support or anything. Then you hire a sitter for after school and adjust your schedule to be home when they get out of school. At least until they are old enough to be home alone after school. For Summer, I am sure you plan to have them in camps anyway with your wife working now. You wife could get every other weekend...

I do have a friend of mine who's wife left. She let the kids choose and they chose him... The kids life is aboutvthe same. Just without mom there...His career allows him to do that. They all seem happier and the ex wife is not in the picture... Don't know what is going on with her...The hubby doesn't care.

That give me hope.

I have gone over all options in my head for myself, wife, and daughter... For now, for the three of us, the best option is to stay the course, support my wife and her job, give her a chance to make a living, and build an effective exit strategy that works for all of us. 

My wife is not in love with me. I no longer feel hurt. There is no right or wrong. It just is. I own my part.


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## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> If you did D, could your wife manage financially with her income if child custody was equal...no child support? You may still have to give some type of alimony.
> 
> Could you manage your career and take care of the young one? You did say you work long hours.
> 
> 
> For me, my wife has the perfect mom hours. While she was a SAHM, I was able to build my business. If we D and had equal custody, I would have to adjust my hours and miss out on some work. She supported me for that for many years...Emotionally...
> 
> I love my wife and I want her to be somewhat independent or more....I want her to want to improve her income as well. My schedule is all over the place. Some days, I work 10 hours days some days just 3 or so. I even work a few hours on occasional Sundays. That would change in a D.
> 
> Think of how you life will change when that happens. I do feel eventually you will be the one to leave. You will want what is best for her and your children. You will give up the majority of you income to make your kids lives the best it can be. You will work many many more hours to insure your kids maintain the same quality of life. I think you would give your wife what she wanted during the D. You will do that because your wife will be understanding and nice about it and you will feel guilty to some degree...
> 
> Another scenero would be you get full custody, she moves out. You don't ask for child support or anything. Then you hire a sitter for after school and adjust your schedule to be home when they get out of school. At least until they are old enough to be home alone after school. For Summer, I am sure you plan to have them in camps anyway with your wife working now. You wife could get every other weekend...
> 
> I do have a friend of mine who's wife left. She let the kids choose and they chose him... The kids life is aboutvthe same. Just without mom there...His career allows him to do that. They all seem happier and the ex wife is not in the picture... Don't know what is going on with her...The hubby doesn't care.
> 
> That give me hope.
> 
> I have gone over all options in my head for myself, wife, and daughter... For now, for the three of us, the best option is to stay the course, support my wife and her job, give her a chance to make a living, and build an effective exit strategy that works for all of us.
> 
> My wife is not in love with me. I no longer feel hurt. There is no right or wrong. It just is. I own my part.


I agree with you. Anything I do at this point I will do for my children. Maybe a few years ago I would have waited longer or agreed to whatever she wanted but not now. At this point in my life I want a wife. I want someone to be there with me through the bad a good. I look forward to slowing down, traveling, the kids being older and on their own. I look forward to those times with a wife.

My wife is who I want that to be.... But she does not feel it and I can not make her. Nor can she make me wait for her and... I won't. At some point soon I have to move on and when I do it is permanent. To be honest, the only reason I am even still in this home or not having her leave is the children.

At some point thought does it hurt the kids to be in a home where one parent doesn' love the other and would be better to live a part?


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## Openminded

Children are very perceptive. They see things their parents don't think they see. I did with my parents and my son did during my marriage (which I stayed in because I didn't want him to have divorced parents). And it doesn't matter at which point you divorce when you have children -- even as adults they still don't want that to happen. If I could relive my life, I would have divorced thirty years ago and not last year.


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## bandit.45

Just give the MC a try before you come out with any ultimatums. If the MC goes nowhere, and she still can't wring any feelings out for you, then see a lawyer and work towards an amicable divorce. 

It seems there are those here who are making your wife out to be some saintly martyr. I don't see that. Okay maybe she is being honest about her feelings, but she had feelings two years ago, she had feelings five years ago , and if she was not able to express them to you then, then it's a cop out to try to make you out to be some unfeeling ogre. 

You and her worked equally hard making a life together, and if she is going to bail on you now....well that's not right. She needs to accept some responsibility for her own state of mind. And I agree you should not have to wait around or allow her to write you off and neglect you in the interim. 

Way to much female entitlement oozing out of this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> At some point thought does it hurt the kids to be in a home where one parent doesn' love the other and would be better to live a part?


Dude! Do you really need to ask? 

Why doesn't mom ever kiss you?
Why doesn't mom ever hug you?
Why doesn't mom say "I love you" to you?
Why does mom sleep in separate room?
Why does mom go out every night? 
Why didn't mom come home last night?
Why is mom always on her phone?
Why is mom always busy?
Where is mom?

How will you answer these questions when your kids ask?


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## Trickster

doublep said:


> I agree with you. Anything I do at this point I will do for my children. Maybe a few years ago I would have waited longer or agreed to whatever she wanted but not now. At this point in my life I want a wife. I want someone to be there with me through the bad a good. I look forward to slowing down, traveling, the kids being older and on their own. I look forward to those times with a wife.
> 
> My wife is who I want that to be.... But she does not feel it and I can not make her. Nor can she make me wait for her and... I won't. At some point soon I have to move on and when I do it is permanent. To be honest, the only reason I am even still in this home or not having her leave is the children.
> 
> At some point thought does it hurt the kids to be in a home where one parent doesn' love the other and would be better to live a part?


I wanted the both of us to see a MC several years ago. She never wanted to. I guess she knew the truth would come out that she wasn't in love with me. It came out anyway. A MC now wouldn't fix anything.

A MC may not fix it for your marriage either. 

My wife was never in love with me. She was attracted to me and still thinks I am cute, we always got along great, I worked hard and was a good provider, and I was the romantic one. She liked that. My love was enough for the both of us. That is until I hit 40 and I wanted to get in shape. Then my libido shot up and it was more than what she wanted from a man she saw as a friend. 

Like another poster said, we can never unsay something. Your wife can't come back in a few months and say " I don't know what I was thinking, I am still in love with you"... 

Is it too late even if she said that to you?. I don't think she would anyway. You wouldn't believe her.

In think you and I are both about in the same place. We both know the best solution is to D. All that remains is logistics.

Would it be a low conflict divorce for y'all? 

Would it be an all out war?

If you both started to consider a D, ( I think you said y'all discussed it) or at least discuss in in more detail, what is her attitude if one of you moves out?

Can she afford the home with her postal job?

My wife would never move out. She would be willing to D, but she still wouldn't move out. She still doesn't want me to move out. 

What was funny is that I wished her a Happy Mothers Day. She wished me a Happy Mothers/Fathers Day back to me. She said I do so much to keep the home together... 

Now that I am detached, she seems to be doing many of the things I want. Even initiating sex.


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## Machiavelli

I don't think MC is going to be of any use whatsoever. In that scenario, you're trying to use reason to overcome the more animalistic elements of the female autonomic reproductive system and when you put it that way, you can understand the futility of the exercise. In any case, she's only agreeing to MC so she can say she "tried everything." Same as every other WW who goes to MC while keeping up the affair(s).


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## Phenix70

Machiavelli said:


> Which is why appealing to logic, reason, and accountability fall flat in these situations. This is why long discussions about the relationship never work with women, even though they think they want these kind of discussions. Actually, they just drive women away. They're a total turnoff. Deeds not words.
> 
> Women naturally cool to men over time, unless you personally get a certain amount of positive status reinforcement from other women, either by the way they interact with you (best) or comments they make to her. Women's status among women is largely based on what man they are married to. Hillary didn't divorce Bill over flagrant philandering because she knew her status could never be higher than wife of the president. That's as good as it gets for her.
> 
> *When your business tanked, you take a big status hit in your wife's eyes. Especially true if other women gave negative feedback to her. Over time, this erodes her status and *Briffault's Law comes into play.



This is the crux of the issue for your wife, though she may not be able to put a voice to her feelings/thoughts because she doesn't know HOW to adequately voice her true displeasure & disconnect. 
I'll break it down into the simplest terms; men want the hottest woman they can get, women want the best provider they can get. Now I know that is a very over generalized statement, but it is also the truth. 
When your business took the hit, your wife's social position took a plunge right along with it, for some people, who they are is irrevocably tied into their social persona, she has not been able to recover herself, to "save face." 
She sees you as the root cause of her unhappiness, for the loss of her social status & THAT is why she wants nothing to do with you on an emotional level. 
She cannot give herself to the man who caused her downfall, as she cannot disassociate YOU from the business, YOU represent to her all that has gone wrong in her life. 
My suggestion?
Get the two of your into MC, get her to fully reveal the truth & also seriously consider moving to another town where they don't know you.


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## Machiavelli

Phenix70 said:


> She sees you as the root cause of her unhappiness, for the loss of her social status & THAT is why she wants nothing to do with you on an emotional level.
> She cannot give herself to the man who caused her downfall, as she cannot disassociate YOU from the business, YOU represent to her all that has gone wrong in her life.
> My suggestion?
> Get the two of your into MC, get her to fully reveal the truth & also seriously consider moving to another town where they don't know you.


This is an outstanding amplification of the concept, but I think OP has better odds of winning the Powerball jackpot than finding an MC who understands this dynamic half as well as you do.


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## bandit.45

Well in this economic climate wives are going to have to adjust their expectations. That's just the bottom line.

I also think she believes he did whatever it was he was accused of doing. Just more lack of support on her part. 

I think he should take her to MC, if for anything else then a safe place to tell her to go fvck herself. 



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doublep

Phenix70 said:


> This is the crux of the issue for your wife, though she may not be able to put a voice to her feelings/thoughts because she doesn't know HOW to adequately voice her true displeasure & disconnect.
> I'll break it down into the simplest terms; men want the hottest woman they can get, women want the best provider they can get. Now I know that is a very over generalized statement, but it is also the truth.
> When your business took the hit, your wife's social position took a plunge right along with it, for some people, who they are is irrevocably tied into their social persona, she has not been able to recover herself, to "save face."
> She sees you as the root cause of her unhappiness, for the loss of her social status & THAT is why she wants nothing to do with you on an emotional level.
> She cannot give herself to the man who caused her downfall, as she cannot disassociate YOU from the business, YOU represent to her all that has gone wrong in her life.
> My suggestion?
> Get the two of your into MC, get her to fully reveal the truth & also seriously consider moving to another town where they don't know you.


Maybe but we never really had a "social status" before, we are both sort of inward. We don't have a ton of friends, we aren't out in the community doing things... We always tend to keep to ourselves.

We also started poor, both of us together. Maybe that is the problem....

I am going to give MC a chance and if I feel there is no hope or it IS an affair either physically or emotionally, She is out and there is no going back. That is my deal breaker.


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## LongWalk

From an evolutionary point of view in prehistory and until monogamous marriage became a social norm, **** sapiens pairs probably routinely saw the male degraded in his ability to compete, leading to the dissolution of the relationship.

This could have been because the male lost his health and hunting ability. He may have been defeated in battle and made a slave, at which point his mate was taken by the victor. But even if she was allowed to remain with him, it might not have been palatable.

Women have had the ability to discard males who do not bring home enough fresh kill. Men who have the ability to feed a larger family routinely had additional mates. Polygamy was normal during the time of the Old Testament's writing.


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## barbados

bandit.45 said:


> I also think she believes he did whatever it was he was accused of doing. Just more lack of support on her part.


:iagree: 

OP has not wanted to say what that was, which is of course his prerogative, but it may help some of us here to perhaps give better advice if we knew what happened.


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## doublep

barbados said:


> :iagree:
> 
> OP has not wanted to say what that was, which is of course his prerogative, but it may help some of us here to perhaps give better advice if we knew what happened.


I was accused of selling counterfeit items... They raided my home and fully expected to high five and take me in... They were wrong. I believe they thought this due to the economy and once great suppliers started sacrificing quality to cut corners and I was not able to keep up with some of the bad parts coming in.

Long story short... I wasn't doing as they claimed. There are no victims, no Business lost money, no one got stuck with a bad part, There are no complaints against my old Company and certainly no one seeking any damages as there were none. Yet I am still fighting other issues pertaining to this glorious raid on me. Once anyone gets involved with our "Justice system" you would see and understand there is no such thing as "Whoops!"

*************

Other question; Should I be trying talk with her about this and lay down my goals and set points or let her alone to think herself?


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> *************
> Other question; Should I be trying talk with her about this and lay down my goals and set points or let her alone to think herself?



What are your goals?

What if she doesn't want to move out?

My wife wants the companionship/friendship and keep an intact home for our daughter. 

Is that what your wife wants?

There may not be more to talk about.. She isn't in love. Like mine, your wife doesn't feel like D is necessary. She loves you, she just isn't in love with you..

My wife doesn't want to discuss it anymore. We do have sex, it's just without emotions... I had emotionless sex back in my single days. This is the same.


Would you be OK with duty sex?

Emotionless sex.... Just physical release?

Just enough sex so you stick around?

Work on the 180 now. Take you kids out and do things without your wife.

Do thing that make you happy that doesn't include your wife.

My wife made it seem so crazy for me to leave. I guess its like an unspoken in house separation. Don't know what to call it.....Limbo maybe

I no longer care . I don't have to be so nice. I am not mean, I just not a doormat anymore.


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## barbados

doublep said:


> I was accused of selling counterfeit items... They raided my home and fully expected to high five and take me in... They were wrong. I believe they thought this due to the economy and once great suppliers started sacrificing quality to cut corners and I was not able to keep up with some of the bad parts coming in.
> 
> Long story short... I wasn't doing as they claimed. There are no victims, no Business lost money, no one got stuck with a bad part, There are no complaints against my old Company and certainly no one seeking any damages as there were none. Yet I am still fighting other issues pertaining to this glorious raid on me. Once anyone gets involved with our "Justice system" you would see and understand there is no such thing as "Whoops!"
> 
> *************
> 
> Other question; Should I be trying talk with her about this and lay down my goals and set points or let her alone to think herself?


Given what you have told us of your history with your W, she really should have stood by you on this one. 

Adding this to some of the other things you have already stated such as the ILYBNILWY, the lack of sex, the taking in the sister, etc., I can only say that if it were me, I would be done.


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## nuclearnightmare

Doublep

Have you discussed divorce with your wife? I.e. The potential for....
Does it, or why does it surprise her that after she told you she is "done"
That you would then talk of separation and divorce? Control your temper but I don't see the need to handle her with kid gloves. I think all aspects of life are better when people state clearly what they want and what they can tolerare and cannot.


----------



## Trickster

nuclearnightmare said:


> Doublep
> 
> Have you discussed divorce with your wife? I.e. The potential for....
> Does it, or why does it surprise her that after she told you she is "done"
> That you would then talk of separation and divorce? Control your temper but I don't see the need to handle her with kid gloves. I think all aspects of life are better when people state clearly what they want and what they can tolerare and cannot.


Yes, that's why Mrs. doublep- kept her mouth shut and didn't want to say anything sooner. She was probably thinking it for a long time. 

doublep-

What was happening when she told you all that? Was there an argument? Was it before you wanted sex? Was it after sex? Did she just wake up and tell you all that? Was it just something you were feeling and you forced her to open up with her feelings?


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## Trickster

doublep-

Is it possible that she was feeling this before all this legal garbage happened and just decided to not tell you until it all straightend out?

What was that straw that caused her to open up to you?


----------



## Wazza

OP, I want you to remember that we only have your side of this story, not your wife's. Of course you are right in your eyes, but do you really understand her side well enough to have represented it fairly here? My guess is no. That doesn't make you wrong, but it does mean you are getting one sided advice.

A few things that have been said here.

Attracting women. I have no doubt some of the stuff Mach and others advocate works. The question is, will it attract the sort of woman you want? Is your wife that sort of woman? Do you want to be something you are not.

About what men and women want. Well I could have more sex if I was unmarried and promiscuous. I don't select just on the "hottest woman I can have" (though my wife is attractive), and I don't especially try to be alpha....I think I am alpha in the ways that matter to my wife but that is another story. I am saying, work out who you are and apply what these guys are saying to your situation. If your goal is a trophy wife, fine.

Standing by people. There is a lot of discussion on how your wife should stand by you. Well I will be contrarian here. How much did she stand by you during the tough times? And acknowledging that you stood my her too (e.g. with the sister) but she has spoken to you of difficult feelings and is willing to seek marriage counselling together. I think she is doing a lot right here overall, and I am glad you intend to try with counselling. I think you have a degree of obligation.

The children....well I stayed with my marriage after my wife had an affair, for the kids. I am not saying you should necessarily, but it would not take you that long with Google to find a fair bit of reputable evidence that parents divorcing negatively impacts the children, more than the parents realise. You should read and consider that before making your mind up. You also need to consider what the marital environment would be like - and that is partly in your control. If you are capable of a civil and constructive relationship with your wife, then I think there is a greater chance that staying together for the kids would succeed.


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## Wazza

nuclearnightmare said:


> Doublep
> 
> Have you discussed divorce with your wife? I.e. The potential for....
> Does it, or why does it surprise her that after she told you she is "done"
> That you would then talk of separation and divorce? Control your temper but I don't see the need to handle her with kid gloves. I think all aspects of life are better when people state clearly what they want and what they can tolerare and cannot.


Honest communication. Key.


----------



## Ripper

doublep said:


> Here are her exact words:
> 
> "I am just not in love with you..."
> "I am done with it"
> "I love you but not like in a husband way"
> "I feel bad if we live together for the kids because I know how intimate and sexual you are"












This is the second time. "I" wouldn't let there be a third.


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## TRy

doublep, was your handle "doublep" meant to be an inside joke? If you Google "double P porn", the definition of double p lets us know that you feel that you are really getting scr**ed over.


----------



## Catherine602

Do you have a plan? You are not ready to talk to her until you have something concrete to discuss. The last time she did this, you moved on but came back. 

Perhaps she thinks that the same thing will happen this time. She will have the right of refusal. You don't have to decide exactly what you want to do until you know what is going on and how you feel about it. What are your investigation plans. 

My suggestion - don't give the appearance that you agree with her plan for an in-house separation. Tell her that you are not sure what you want to do and you are looking at several options. 

When you make a decision discuss how you want to handle things.


----------



## Voltaire2013

Apparently they missed something, was the counterfeit wife at home when the raid occurred? Sorry, had to say it. Were you by chance a supplier to the DoD? 

Cheers,
V(13)





doublep said:


> I was accused of selling counterfeit items... They raided my home and fully expected to high five and take me in... They were wrong. I believe they thought this due to the economy and once great suppliers started sacrificing quality to cut corners and I was not able to keep up with some of the bad parts coming in.
> 
> Long story short... I wasn't doing as they claimed. There are no victims, no Business lost money, no one got stuck with a bad part, There are no complaints against my old Company and certainly no one seeking any damages as there were none. Yet I am still fighting other issues pertaining to this glorious raid on me. Once anyone gets involved with our "Justice system" you would see and understand there is no such thing as "Whoops!"
> 
> *************
> 
> Other question; Should I be trying talk with her about this and lay down my goals and set points or let her alone to think herself?


----------



## doublep

Voltaire2013 said:


> Apparently they missed something, was the counterfeit wife at home when the raid occurred? Sorry, had to say it. Were you by chance a supplier to the DoD?
> 
> Cheers,
> V(13)


I was not a supplier to the DOD, there were on rare occasions I would find out my customers may have been....


----------



## doublep

Well, kind of a break through last night....
I sat down and talked with my wife for 2 hours. I layed it all out and we went back and forth.

I finally got her to open up and talk, she admits she is battling major depression with all that is happening. Becuase of this he has absoutely NO intmacy urges or feelings. She knows how important it is to me and that makes her feel worse.... I said to her: I can deal with that and I want to help you with that but I have to know right now, is there a love issue.

She looked at me confused and said, "Never, I love you as always and will never stop but I am just not intimate right now. It is the furthest thing from my mind" - I asked what this whole "I love you but " was all about. She said she did not know of any other way to explain it.

I told her if you love me, I will of course stay and work with you on this. We can get help for you and our marriage. She was instantly agreeable. For the first time I did see the desparity and despair in her eyes, remember she is a master of hiding emotions as I stated earlier. Her drinking is taking a big turn back to being excessive which is another issue we have to remedy....

Thoughts?


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## doublep

TRy said:


> doublep, was your handle "doublep" meant to be an inside joke? If you Google "double P porn", the definition of double p lets us know that you feel that you are really getting scr**ed over.


Hahahaha!!!
No, they are my intitials.


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## Tobyboy

Be careful believing anything she says at the moment. Although, it does sound promising (her opening up), it could be just a smoke screen to make you back off. Be supportive, but vigilant as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nucking Futs

Tobyboy said:


> Be careful believing anything she says at the moment. Although, it does sound promising (her opening up), it could be just a smoke screen to make you back off. Be supportive, but vigilant as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actions not words. When is she going to see a doctor about her depression?


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## Jung_admirer

ILYBINILWY = I care for you as a person, but choose not to love you. I was also on the receiving end of that message from fWW.

Limerence is a feeling, love is an action. As the dearly departed Leo Buscaglia said, "One cannot give what he does not possess. To give love you must possess love."

Your partner has to learn to love, honor and cherish themselves before they can extend the same to you. No amount of alpha behavior by you will make this happen for another. The alpha behavior leverages fear of abandonment ... love and fear do not reside in the same house. 

Your DW has depression... What do you do? You give up on someone when they have given on on themselves. Until that time, you support and nurture ... I like the way you are headed OP ... Kindest Regards-


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## Wazza

"Just be kind, and more than that if you can. It's good and right and helps us all. Life can be hard. Everyone has a battle or burden at some point."


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## Trickster

doublep-

I swear we have the same wife.

Once my wife felt I was gone or willing to leave, it all changed. Your wife may or may not have depression. All the tricks I played to ingitecthe passion, all the games, all the alpha behavior changes, the 180....nothing changed. 

Until I was about to leave...

She is all loving now and is doing most of what I want. I just wasted all that energy. 

I finally let go..... That worked.

Relax a bit. Like Catherine said, you don't have to do anything now. Y'all have been together since you were teenagers. Give it some time.

Be mentally ready for anything...


----------



## chazmataz3

I started to read your post and made it to #54 and something clicked in my mind.You mentioned ptsd, is this something that she has and has been treated for? If so this could explain a lot to me.speaking for myself,I was treated for childhood ptsd and I found out I had trouble connecting with other people.Just saying,if she went back to work 4 months age she may be having a flare up of ptsd.Just saying, its worth looking into.


----------



## doublep

chazmataz3 said:


> I started to read your post and made it to #54 and something clicked in my mind.You mentioned ptsd, is this something that she has and has been treated for? If so this could explain a lot to me.speaking for myself,I was treated for childhood ptsd and I found out I had trouble connecting with other people.Just saying,if she went back to work 4 months age she may be having a flare up of ptsd.Just saying, its worth looking into.


I am trying to get her into treatment for it. I am also reading on a lot of things that can happen with PTSD.


----------



## bandit.45

The self-medicating with booze could be another way she is acting out due to the PTSD.

If it is PTSD that would explain alot of her behaviors.

But that doesn't mean you should not follow up with some stealthy investigation as to whether or not another man is involved.


----------



## Catherine602

You mentioned that she has had a drinking problem in the past. How much does she drink and how does she change when she drinks? Can she take care of the children? 

Sorry to keep harping on this but you will still have to rule out the involvement of a 3rd person. It does not have to be an affair but just someone which whom she is sharing her troubles. 

Not many people realize that talking to the opposite gender about marital problems my lead to an inappropriate sense of intimacy. It is often the prelude to an EA or PA. 

Not accusing but just saying she could be inadvertently be getting herself into a position that she does not realize is bad for the communication with her husband. 

Try to get back to sleeping in the same bed ASAP. Don't push sex but why can't you hold each other? You need each other now more than ever. She is going in the wrong direction. She needs to come to you not go off n her own. 

You know your wife, how can you get her to realize that? You probably know this already but at this point, - I would not put any pressure on her for sex at present. Be affectionate if you can. at lest stay in the same room at night.


----------



## Mostlycontent

doublep said:


> Well, kind of a break through last night....
> I sat down and talked with my wife for 2 hours. I layed it all out and we went back and forth.
> 
> I finally got her to open up and talk, she admits she is battling major depression with all that is happening. Becuase of this he has absoutely NO intmacy urges or feelings. She knows how important it is to me and that makes her feel worse.... I said to her: I can deal with that and I want to help you with that but I have to know right now, is there a love issue.
> 
> She looked at me confused and said, "Never, I love you as always and will never stop but I am just not intimate right now. It is the furthest thing from my mind" - I asked what this whole "I love you but " was all about. She said she did not know of any other way to explain it.
> 
> I told her if you love me, I will of course stay and work with you on this. We can get help for you and our marriage. She was instantly agreeable. For the first time I did see the desparity and despair in her eyes, remember she is a master of hiding emotions as I stated earlier. Her drinking is taking a big turn back to being excessive which is another issue we have to remedy....
> 
> Thoughts?


Okay, this is good stuff and we now have a bit more information. Depression, PTSD, excessive drinking and even the onset of perimenopause can explain some of the behaviors or changes in mood (hormone changes) and emotions that you're experiencing.

I can tell you that my experience with those who drink excessively, as that trait seems to be littered all in my family, is that it can dramatically change one's personality and numb one's emotions. If the excessive drinking is a more recent trend, that alone could explain a lot of what you're experiencing. Alcohol is a depressant so if your W already struggles with that, the booze are likely making it worse. 

Couple that with PTSD, if she's been diagnosed with that, and I believe those are your answers. Now what to do. I don't know the extent of the drinking but if you've had discussions with your W before about it, then I can surmise that it's likely in the "problem area". It can lead to alcoholism, which will only progress so it needs to be nipped in the bud, so to speak.

I think MC is a great place to start and go from there. I think you have a good idea though as to what might be going on and stay strong and support her. This has more likely got everything to do with her and nothing really to do with you and she's probably struggling with how she feels about a lot of things right now.


----------



## Forest

This may sound flip, but there is some logic behind it. It seems that two of the common things that pull women away from their marriages, and into affairs are Compliments and Attention. 

Its a depressingly shallow and easy way to prey on married women. If it works to ruin a marriage, it might also work to lure her from the depression she has embraced. You might have to cast yourself into the sneaky role or a conniving miscreant, but what have you got to lose?


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> You mentioned that she has had a drinking problem in the past. How much does she drink and how does she change when she drinks? Can she take care of the children?
> 
> Sorry to keep harping on this but you will still have to rule out the involvement of a 3rd person. It does not have to be an affair but just someone which whom she is sharing her troubles.
> .


I have pretty much ruled out another man. Here is why...

- She works alone, she does not go back to the mail office to get mail, she in on a contract basis. they give her, her truck and she goes. She texts me randomly when she can during the day.
- She does not text, no chat rooms, phone records clean and is always home with me.
- I thought she could have met a guy who talks with her online with her gaming. Yesterday I made the comment, "That game looks fun, maybe I will join and play with you" and she excited. She said " I am surprised you wouldnt like this game, if you do play you can join my group I am in". and she plays in the group with my daughter as well.
- She has no history of it, let alone really liking men lol.



Catherine602 said:


> Try to get back to sleeping in the same bed ASAP. Don't push sex but why can't you hold each other? You need each other now more than ever. She is going in the wrong direction. She needs to come to you not go off n her own.
> 
> You know your wife, how can you get her to realize that? You probably know this already but at this point, - I would not put any pressure on her for sex at present. Be affectionate if you can. at lest stay in the same room at night.


She sent me a random text yesterday from work saying "i am going to try and be more effectionate". 

I am also not going to go all in, I do realize this could be a delay tactic on her part but I, at this point really do think she has issues with PTSD and depression from this whole event. She did tell me that she feels her heart is dead. She says she feels nothing for anything.... That breaks my heart to hear.


----------



## doublep

Mostlycontent said:


> Okay, this is good stuff and we now have a bit more information. Depression, PTSD, excessive drinking and even the onset of perimenopause can explain some of the behaviors or changes in mood (hormone changes) and emotions that you're experiencing.
> 
> I can tell you that my experience with those who drink excessively, as that trait seems to be littered all in my family, is that it can dramatically change one's personality and numb one's emotions. If the excessive drinking is a more recent trend, that alone could explain a lot of what you're experiencing. Alcohol is a depressant so if your W already struggles with that, the booze are likely making it worse.
> 
> Couple that with PTSD, if she's been diagnosed with that, and I believe those are your answers. Now what to do. I don't know the extent of the drinking but if you've had discussions with your W before about it, then I can surmise that it's likely in the "problem area". It can lead to alcoholism, which will only progress so it needs to be nipped in the bud, so to speak.
> 
> I think MC is a great place to start and go from there. I think you have a good idea though as to what might be going on and stay strong and support her. This has more likely got everything to do with her and nothing really to do with you and she's probably struggling with how she feels about a lot of things right now.


Well, she would be classified as a functioning alcoholic. She drinks and has tried to quit and can not... Its another thing she is working on, her father died at 42 from alcohol.

The PTSD is my main concern. I am ex wartime military, I now those effects and couple that with she is not an intimate person to begin with, I am leaning towards this. I told her, as long as she loves me, I will walk through the fire with her and do all I can for her and us....

I also said if you truly have lost all love for me, I will move on and never look back, period. I dont say that to be mean, I say it because me and anyone in a situation like me deserves to be able to seek out love.


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

Does she drink enough to get drunk?

How often?

Do the kids see her drinking?

Do you feel her to stop drinking or that you are concerned about her drinking?

I am a functioning alcoholic myself. My mother also died from cirrhosis of the liver from drinking. I don't drink all the time or every day. Usually just enough to numb my feelings. My wife never tells me to stop and she doesn't seem to believe I have a problem with it because I work hard, I am a good provider, and I am not an angry drunk, and several other reasons to make her think it's not a problem.

Your wife's drinking seems to be a problem for you. 

People say an alcoholic should stop drinking for them self. However, if they are depressed, they need to stop drinking for others. 

If she doesn't want to stop drinking for herself, ask her to stop for the kids. It doesn't always work for me, but it helps.


----------



## Trickster

Is the PTSD that severe from the event or is that just an excuse to drink?


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> Is the PTSD that severe from the event or is that just an excuse to drink?


This kids never see her drink, she hides it from them. 90% of the time she does drink, she does not get fall down drunk, that is very rare. Yet, she is still drinking.

I think the PTSD is severe. Maybe I am just an idiot but she has shed other things she loved... Example:

Spring time: She used to love doing a garden, tinkering in the yard, fixing things, etc.. You could not keep her in the house. - This year and last she has absolutely NO interest and has done nothing. 

House: She loves to paint, hang pictures, change furniture, curtains, etc... She has done none of that in months.

She used to love going out to eat, tinkering around in stores and now she barely has enough to go food shopping....

I feel like an idiot, I should have seen all this.


----------



## Mostlycontent

doublep said:


> This kids never see her drink, she hides it from them. 90% of the time she does drink, she does not get fall down drunk, that is very rare. Yet, she is still drinking.
> 
> I think the PTSD is severe. Maybe I am just an idiot but she has shed other things she loved... Example:
> 
> Spring time: She used to love doing a garden, tinkering in the yard, fixing things, etc.. You could not keep her in the house. - This year and last she has absolutely NO interest and has done nothing.
> 
> House: She loves to paint, hang pictures, change furniture, curtains, etc... She has done none of that in months.
> 
> She used to love going out to eat, tinkering around in stores and now she barely has enough to go food shopping....
> 
> I feel like an idiot, I should have seen all this.


Well, alcohol does rob you of all ambition. It did for me. I used to protect my drinking by saying I was a functioning alcoholic until one day, I was not. I've been sober a long time now but I wouldn't just dismiss that as a problem because there's a good chance it is the main problem.

Alcohol made me apathetic in lots of areas of my life, including my family. Just some food for thought.


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

I have many interest to keep me busy. Many of the same things as your wife. 

During the day, if not working, I live to garden, cook, read, organize, house work, hike with a group, daily 2 miles walks with my dog, volunteer at an animal shelter, chaperone at field trips at my daughters school if i give myself the day off. I can do that being self-employed. Most people wouldn't even think I drink at all. I hide it well.

My wife knows about how much i drink. Most of the time, not always, I don't drink until my daughter goes to bed. I read to her most nights before she goes to sleep. As of now, I have no alcohol in the house.

Do you see that drinking is problem for your wife?

If I stopped my interest I think I would drink more....maybe...

Your wife is definitely trying to numb something.

Does drinking help her sleep?

Does she have insomnia?

Does she hide the amount of alcohol she drinks?

How many of the 26 years has she been drinking?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

_She says she feels nothing for anything_

that statement in and of itself is strong evidence of depression. and yes - excessive drinking and depression is a bad combination.

on the good side of things she's now opended up to you, essentially telling you she's not sure she really meant what she said (ILYBINILWY). No need to separate now. but is she the type that will go all in for treatment? Depression meds, therapy? plus she should see her regular doctor about her sex drive going way up and then crashing. to see what's up with that.


----------



## Trickster

nuclearnightmare said:


> _She says she feels nothing for anything_
> 
> that statement in and of itself is strong evidence of depression. and yes - excessive drinking and depression is a bad combination.
> 
> on the good side of things she's now opended up to you, essentially telling you she's not sure she really meant what she said (ILYBINILWY). No need to separate now. but is she the type that will go all in for treatment? Depression meds, therapy? plus she should see her regular doctor about her sex drive going way up and then crashing. to see what's up with that.


doublep-

Was she drinking when she ramped up the sex?

Do you know why her drive increased?

Is there a chance she was hoping to have that in-love feeling with more passionate sex? 

I read that in one of the books that I read...

When that didn't happen, she said ILYBNILWY. Maybe she wants to be in love with you more than anything.


----------



## doublep

nuclearnightmare said:


> _She says she feels nothing for anything_
> 
> that statement in and of itself is strong evidence of depression. and yes - excessive drinking and depression is a bad combination.
> 
> on the good side of things she's now opended up to you, essentially telling you she's not sure she really meant what she said (ILYBINILWY). No need to separate now. but is she the type that will go all in for treatment? Depression meds, therapy? plus she should see her regular doctor about her sex drive going way up and then crashing. to see what's up with that.


She is the type that will and has agreed to MC and her own C. This event in our lives messed her up pretty good. Even though I was the center of it, I think I didn't calculate enough the effect on her.

As for her drinking... I can not gauge it enough yet. She goes says without drinking then, drinks for 3 days straight (Not fall down drunk but a good buzz). She has tried to get help before for it... She tries, she does.

At this point I am all in to help her of course.... I dont think it is anything else but depression and PTSD.


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> Was she drinking when she ramped up the sex?
> 
> Do you know why her drive increased?
> 
> Is there a chance she was hoping to have that in-love feeling with more passionate sex?
> 
> I read that in one of the books that I read...
> 
> When that didn't happen, she said ILYBNILWY. Maybe she wants to be in love with you more than anything.


I asked her this exact question, as to why if she felt this way, why only 3 months ago was she so sexual. She said: "I was trying so hard to force myself back to intimacy because I knew how important it was for you... I tried, I really did..."

She thought if maybe the frequency increased it would spark her own interest again....


----------



## Thound

doublep said:


> I asked her this exact question, as to why if she felt this way, why only 3 months ago was she so sexual. She said: "I was trying so hard to force myself back to intimacy because I knew how important it was for you... I tried, I really did..."
> 
> She thought if maybe the frequency increased it would spark her own interest again....


Thats pretty much what I said a few pages back. I guess a blind hog does find an acorn every now and then. Good news you have something to work with. Keep talking with her in nonjudgemental way
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

The drinking will effect her. It probably already has. He liver function, intestinal tract and brain. The changes are subtle at first but as the years pile up, so do the illnesses. 

Alcoholism has a strong genetic component along with the vulnerability to alcohol-related illnesses. Things usually become symptomatic in the 40's and 50's. A person with a genetic component has to stay away from drink. 

Liver problems, clotting, intestinal bleeding, increased risk of laryngeal and stomach cancer etc. I have alcoholics on both sides of my family so I know. My father was a bing drinker and died early. 

(You too Trickster)

Alcoholism Definition - Diseases and Conditions - Mayo Clinic


----------



## Iver

Based on what you have written so far a full medical examination (bloodwork, etc) is the first thing you need to do.

Many time people suffering from depression will self-medicate with alcohol; of course some people are alcoholics and that can push you into having mood issues.

Are you in a position to have your wife do an in- patient detox at a medical center if that's what it takes?

The bottom line I see here is your wife needs medical help - please take this seriously.


----------



## Trickster

Guys,

I think all that may be overkill. 

The first step would be IC, maybe before MC.

Being an alcoholic myself, I look for reasons to drink. I get a feeling she is using this "event" as a reason to drink.

I don't think she is at the point of having to detox. Not yet... That is something the councler can decide.


----------



## bandit.45

Will she attend AA meetings? The 12 step program works....if you work it.


----------



## MidwestDave

doublep said:


> Could this be menopause? Stress? She also stated that maybe she cant take watching me endure all these traumas and its a protect measure for her, a way out of bad things? I dont see or think that way so it's hard for me.
> 
> If anyone has any suggestions, experience, opinions, I could use them. I am crushed and dont really know what to do.


I divorced after 27 years, wife became an alcoholic and ran off to another state with an Internet find. Recently she told me that she screwed one man for every year we were married, while we were married.

Regardless, splitting after that many years and with children was by far the most horrendous experience in my life. I have been almost killed in an accident, have lost both my parents; but nothing came close to the total devastation of divorce after 27 years of marriage. 

It's easy to give glib advice and say you should be merrily on your way but believe me, the bonds you made with your wife will NEVER go away until you are buried in the ground. Unless you are a cold-hearted person, and I don't think you are.

Personally I would give her more time. Why not a year? Sure, see a lawyer if that makes you feel better since you have a business to consider. But in the end does it really matter? 

I agree with you that menopause (female and male) can make people behave in some strange ways. Especially since you mentioned the sex drive changes, you have to consider that.


----------



## doublep

Well, apparently she has no will for sex or any passion. She wants to live as business partners. She wants all the help, all the co-parenting, the combined income but none of the wife or husband duties as in passion, intimacy and closeness.

What would you men do when confronted with this? I think its is beyond acceptable. She doesnt know if this is a temperary feeling or permanent.... Here are my thoughts.

If this is an issue within in her, I will work on it. If this is a more permanent thing, I am out of this marriage. That is not a marriage where one person decides they are done having sex. Sex IS an important part of marriage. It is who we are. I am sick of hearing (mostly women) that sex should not be a main point of marriage. Absolute BS. We are built that way. I love my wife and I want lots of sex. I would even settle for some sex... I will NEVER settle for no sex or extreme minimal amounts.

Sex IS one of the most important things in a marriage.


----------



## bandit.45

doublep said:


> Well, apparently she has no will for sex or any passion. She wants to live as business partners. She wants all the help, all the co-parenting, the combined income but none of the wife or husband duties as in passion, intimacy and closeness.
> 
> What would you men do when confronted with this? I think its is beyond acceptable. She doesnt know if this is a temperary feeling or permanent.... Here are my thoughts.
> 
> If this is an issue within in her, I will work on it. If this is a more permanent thing, I am out of this marriage. That is not a marriage where one person decides they are done having sex. Sex IS an important part of marriage. It is who we are. I am sick of hearing (mostly women) that sex should not be a main point of marriage. Absolute BS. We are built that way. I love my wife and I want lots of sex. I would even settle for some sex... I will NEVER settle for no sex or extreme minimal amounts.
> 
> Sex IS one of the most important things in a marriage.


I agree with you completely on all counts. And no... you should not accept her terms. 

Again, if MC does not work, if she cannot get the booze under control, if she cannot dredge up any sexual or romantic desire for you, then it is time to start making plans to separate at the very least.


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

What I am doing may not work for you.it may not even work for me.

We opened our marriage. Haven't acted on it yet...

As I started to talk about other women as potential lovers, she became all romantic and started wanting sex. As I backed off of talking about then, she backed off of sex... I don't get it..she acts like she loves me even though she told me she wasn't in love. She is also doing all the things I wanted her to do.

We talked about D. I want my wife to be able to take care of herself when that time comes. She doesn't believe I will leave.

If I had full custody, she wouldn't make it on her own.

If she got full custody and 50% of my income, she wouldn't make it either.

If we had 50/50 custody, she wouldn't make it.

She has 8 years until our daughter is 18 and to be financially ready. 

In the meantime, I will have sex with her or with somebody else... I am developing female friends which could lead to more...My wife and I are having sex. She seems to enjoy it. I think it may be fear that I will leave... 

D is honestly the only solution. When the time comes and I have sex with another woman, I know our marriage will be over, even though we have an open marriage.


I love my wife like you love yours. This is going to hurt you way more than her.

Divorce has to be an option. She has to know that is a possibility. 

Are you emotionally ready to D?


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> What I am doing may not work for you.it may not even work for me.
> 
> We opened our marriage. Haven't acted on it yet...
> 
> As I started to talk about other women as potential lovers, she became all romantic and started wanting sex. As I backed off of talking about then, she backed off of sex... I don't get it..she acts like she loves me even though she told me she wasn't in love. She is also doing all the things I wanted her to do.
> 
> We talked about D. I want my wife to be able to take care of herself when that time comes. She doesn't believe I will leave.
> 
> If I had full custody, she wouldn't make it on her own.
> 
> If she got full custody and 50% of my income, she wouldn't make it either.
> 
> If we had 50/50 custody, she wouldn't make it.
> 
> She has 8 years until our daughter is 18 and to be financially ready.
> 
> In the meantime, I will have sex with her or with somebody else... I am developing female friends which could lead to more...My wife and I are having sex. She seems to enjoy it. I think it may be fear that I will leave...
> 
> D is honestly the only solution. When the time comes and I have sex with another woman, I know our marriage will be over, even though we have an open marriage.
> 
> 
> I love my wife like you love yours. This is going to hurt you way more than her.
> 
> Divorce has to be an option. She has to know that is a possibility.
> 
> Are you emotionally ready to D?


I am because my future will include someone who wants to be intimate with me. I want my wife to be the one but I can not change her feelings... When I told her this she said what if down the line I feel different? I said, if I go... I am gone for good. I will not play the back and forth game.

Has your wife used the open marriage for herself?


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> I am because my future will include someone who wants to be intimate with me. I want my wife to be the one but I can not change her feelings... When I told her this she said what if down the line I feel different? I said, if I go... I am gone for good. I will not play the back and forth game.
> 
> Has your wife used the open marriage for herself?


My wife has no sexual desire for me or anybody. She was a virgin at 25 and she wasn't saving herself. She is Asexual. She does have sex because she wants me to stay. Most of the time she enjoys it. She would be happy if I didn't want sex.

So no, she wouldn't have sex with another man... Her mind doesn't even go there. Thats why she doesn't understand how important sex is to me. She can't understand why I would throw our marriage away for sex with another woman. Throw away our 22 years. Friendship/companionship should be enough....so she thinks.

We are in the sex phase now every third night. Deepnin my gut, I know she wants it over with asap.


----------



## Q tip

doublep said:


> Wow, a lot of good posts... I have to admit, the increased sex only a few months ago to this 180 is shocking and leads one to believe there is some form of cheating going on.
> 
> Yet... Our whole discussion about 5-6 months ago about pre-menopause and how she was feeling different, extremely emotional, angry, then sad, etc makes me pause. She would get red heat rashes on her face.....
> 
> I don't want to do the wrong thing here and I don't want to stay in a loveless marriage. I deserve better and so does she. My 15 year old daughter made me promise I would not leave. My babies are my everything.....
> 
> Good lord, I am lost.


Couple of books for you to seriously read..

- What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Premenopause: Balance Your Hormones and Your Life From Thirty to Fifty
- Married Man Sex Life Primer

Carefully select a doctor who understands hormones. 99% are incompetent in this area. Such a simple thing to do to get quality back in her life and yours. 

Everyone here (for good reason) treats everything like cheating. Forgive me if it is, I have not read all this. Hormone balance for men and women is critical to avoid a TNT of health issues. Go to Highest Quality Vitamins And Supplements - Life Extension and read up all the research they have there. Take action, my friend.

All it takes is a male /female hormone blood panel along with the usual CBC lipids and the like. Refer to Life Extensions recommended ranges. ignore ranges on the blood test doc. Get her and yourself into the recommended youthful ranges and BAMB! If this is the issue, you'll have your wife back.


----------



## bandit.45

Q-tip I myself and several others mentioned she neededed blood tests and hormone screening pages ago. No one is trying to shove D down his throat. He's more going ho on divorcing her more than many of us. 

I think he needs to exhaust every option before pulling the plug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

Y'all have been together your whole adult life. A divorce will hurt. Your whole world will be turned upside down. 

I can understand staying together for the kids or "business partners" Your wife will be the one to get the better deal from that.

Do you have a good support system? Friends? Family? Baby sitters?


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> Y'all have been together your whole adult life. A divorce will hurt. Your whole world will be turned upside down.
> 
> I can understand staying together for the kids or "business partners" Your wife will be the one to get the better deal from that.
> 
> Do you have a good support system? Friends? Family? Baby sitters?


I do but the bottom line is... I will not be in a marriage without intimacy, period. It is important to me. I am a very sexual person. My wife is also very A sexual and I have dealt with it for a long time, she does have times when she is in the mood and I love her so that I would deal with it on a limited basis... I will not deal with it on a Nil basis.

Our kids are getting older and I am willing to work on it but it is not without time limits....


----------



## Trickster

bandit.45 said:


> Q-tip I myself and several others mentioned she neededed blood tests and hormone screening pages ago. No one is trying to shove D down his throat. He's more going ho on divorcing herore than slot of us.
> 
> I think he needs to exhaust every option before pulling the plug.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So getting blood work and hormone screening will make Mrs. doublep- fall in love?

Personally I think she may be pi$$ed she had to get a job. Before she was doing her wifely duty and now that she is working, she no longer has to do that.

Does that seem correct or am I wrong there... I am projecting a bit.


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> I do but the bottom line is... I will not be in a marriage without intimacy, period. It is important to me. I am a very sexual person. My wife is also very A sexual and I have dealt with it for a long time, she does have times when she is in the mood and I love her so that I would deal with it on a limited basis... I will not deal with it on a Nil basis.
> 
> Our kids are getting older and I am willing to work on it but it is not without time limits....


Your kids must know something isn't right. What are they saying. Are they old enough to understand?


----------



## Q tip

bandit.45 said:


> Q-tip I myself and several others mentioned she neededed blood tests and hormone screening pages ago. No one is trying to shove D down his throat. He's more going ho on divorcing her more than many of us.
> 
> I think he needs to exhaust every option before pulling the plug.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I understand and agree. 

The real problem is doctors. They don't get it. They'll say normal range and be done with it, Bamacare is widening these ranges too which means less treatment at the cost of poor health and worse. It will force people to die longer rather than live longer. 

MMSLP says first - health. Get in shape. He means it. It works.


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> Your kids must know something isn't right. What are they saying. Are they old enough to understand?


My 15 year old does, she is very mature for her age... She tells us both we have been through some major issues and to take it slow. We are.

My 9 year old boys knows something is up but he is still a bit young to understand.


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> So getting blood work and hormone screening will make Mrs. doublep- fall in love?
> 
> Personally I think she may be pi$$ed she had to get a job. Before she was doing her wifely duty and now that she is working, she no longer has to do that.
> 
> Does that seem correct or am I wrong there... I am projecting a bit.


Could be but she worked for 20 out of the 26 years together. It is nothing new to her. This is exactly what she said just this morning:

" I am perfectly happy right now. I am happy working and coming home to you and the kids." - Isn't that nice that she is happy shedding all intimacy and passion with someone she is supposed to love. Does she expect me to say "Oh, well as long as you're happy!"


----------



## bandit.45

Trickster said:


> So getting blood work and hormone screening will make Mrs. doublep- fall in love?
> 
> Personally I think she may be pi$$ed she had to get a job. Before she was doing her wifely duty and now that she is working, she no longer has to do that.
> 
> Does that seem correct or am I wrong there... I am projecting a bit.



I don't disagree with you. But what would it hurt. All I'm saying is, before he pulls the plug, he should explore all possible causalities.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Trickster said:


> So getting blood work and hormone screening will make Mrs. doublep- fall in love?
> 
> Personally I think she may be pi$$ed she had to get a job. Before she was doing her wifely duty and now that she is working, she no longer has to do that.
> 
> Does that seem correct or am I wrong there... I am projecting a bit.


Get screening and take action accordingly. Screening does nothing but rule out issues, or possibly ID them. If hormones are an issue, it may be the root cause. From what I've read, it should be considered.


----------



## bandit.45

Divorce sucks DoubleP. It sucks to the bone. Without a doubt the worst thing you will ever go through. 

And despite what you may have heard, there is no such thing as a completely amicable and rancor free divorce. If kids are involved it will get ugly, despite your best intentions. Just make sure you are SURE divorce is the only option before you shut the switch off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happi_g_more2

doublep said:


> Could be but she worked for 20 out of the 26 years together. It is nothing new to her. This is exactly what she said just this morning:
> 
> " I am perfectly happy right now. I am happy working and coming home to you and the kids." - Isn't that nice that she is happy shedding all intimacy and passion with someone she is supposed to love. Does she expect me to say "Oh, well as long as you're happy!"


Is she perfectly happy letting you go outside your marriage to get the intimacy you need and deserve? If so, could be a win win  In all seriousness, most of what you are describing is alcohol related. She should be in a treatment program.


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> My 15 year old does, she is very mature for her age... She tells us both we have been through some major issues and to take it slow. We are.
> 
> My 9 year old boys knows something is up but he is still a bit young to understand.


I have a 10 year old daughter. She is always telling us to hug. That will be the hard part. I can see why many people wait until they move out... I know, that's a cop out.


----------



## Trickster

Marriage, Sex, Divorce and other Decoupling

Check out the link.

Wife sues because hubby didn't want sex


----------



## doublep

As days go by I get more and more resentful.... The way she acts as though nothing is wrong bothers me to know end.

On another note, I have someone I have known for years who I know always wanted to be with me. She sends me messages on FB and stuff. Nothing even remotely flirty at all but she told me years ago that she would LOVE to be with me and if anything happened where my wife and I split, look her up.

I am very sexually attracted to her, probably more now due to this but I will never dis-honor my wife. Ever. It is not an option for me. I know it's silly in this day and age but I am a bit old fashioned that way... I wont start flirting with this woman. What hurts is I REALLY want to and my instincts are hard to push aside.....


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> As days go by I get more and more resentful.... The way she acts as though nothing is wrong bothers me to know end.
> 
> On another note, I have someone I have known for years who I know always wanted to be with me. She sends me messages on FB and stuff. Nothing even remotely flirty at all but she told me years ago that she would LOVE to be with me and if anything happened where my wife and I split, look her up.
> 
> I am very sexually attracted to her, probably more now due to this but I will never dis-honor my wife. Ever. It is not an option for me. I know it's silly in this day and age but I am a bit old fashioned that way... I wont start flirting with this woman. What hurts is I REALLY want to and my instincts are hard to push aside.....


When I started to flirt with other women, my wife took notice. When they flirt back, she started to become more sexual and affectionate. 

Although I don't believe either one of us will act on our open marriage, that possibility is there. My wife fears that I will leave the marriage. I am not afraid anymore. I am no longer playing game and working on our marriage. It's her turn.

Give your wife a chance to wake up. She may not...

My wife also acts as if all is perfect... I don't get it either.


----------



## Mostlycontent

Trickster said:


> When I started to flirt with other women, my wife took notice. When they flirt back, she started to become more sexual and affectionate.
> 
> Although I don't believe either one of us will act on our open marriage, that possibility is there. My wife fears that I will leave the marriage. I am not afraid anymore. I am no longer playing game and working on our marriage. It's her turn.
> 
> Give your wife a chance to wake up. She may not...
> 
> My wife also acts as if all is perfect... I don't get it either.


I like that strategy. You have now regained control of the relationship and call the shots. I'd do the same doublep and make Mrs. doublep take notice. Nothing motivates like the fear of losing something.

As I've said what is seeming like dozens of times now, the number one problem in marriages that are into double digit years is taking one another for granted. She believes you will always be there and will tolerate whatever behavior she tosses your way.

26 years is a long time so there's definitely a feeling that this person will always be there so I don't have to make any effort anymore to please them. It's incredibly wrong-headed but I think fairly common.


----------



## Mostlycontent

doublep said:


> I do but the bottom line is... I will not be in a marriage without intimacy, period. It is important to me. I am a very sexual person. My wife is also very A sexual and I have dealt with it for a long time, she does have times when she is in the mood and I love her so that I would deal with it on a limited basis... I will not deal with it on a Nil basis.
> 
> Our kids are getting older and I am willing to work on it but it is not without time limits....


I would demand the same, doublep. You and Trickster seem to have wives cut from the same cloth. I don't know who posted it but I believe hormones may be a problem for both of your wives. Being Asexual is not normal.

If someone doesn't desire sex at all, that's definitely not normal. In men, it's almost always Low-T. In women, it could be low estrogen, low testosterone or low progesterone or It could be a combination of all three. Women have a lot more components and variables in play than men do for them to be normal and balanced.

My W has been going through perimenopause for several years now and she goes regularly to a Gyno who specializes in bio-identical hormone replacement therapy. It's made a world of difference from feeling better, to sleeping better, to skin tone and elasticity and to not feeling tired all the time. It really does make a huge difference once they get their hormones right.

Having said all of that, my W has never had a problem in the sex drive department but that's not to say that hormones being out of balance can't cause that problem because I think it can.


----------



## bandit.45

doublep said:


> As days go by I get more and more resentful.... The way she acts as though nothing is wrong bothers me to know end.
> 
> On another note, I have someone I have known for years who I know always wanted to be with me. She sends me messages on FB and stuff. Nothing even remotely flirty at all but she told me years ago that she would LOVE to be with me and if anything happened where my wife and I split, look her up.
> 
> I am very sexually attracted to her, probably more now due to this but I will never dis-honor my wife. Ever. It is not an option for me. I know it's silly in this day and age but I am a bit old fashioned that way... I wont start flirting with this woman. What hurts is I REALLY want to and my instincts are hard to push aside.....



Has she agreed yet to going to a specialist to get her hormones checked? 

You can't just send her to a gyno....they are not specialists in hormones. She needs to go to an endocrinologist. See what your HMO or PPO will pay for. 

Have you asked her to at least go to a couple AA meetings a week? I'm a sponsor and AA group facilitator. It is one hour a night a couple nights a week....with check-ins on Saturday mornings if she needs them. It is not a huge investment in time and if she follows the book, gets a sponsor and works the program it will help her. 

I also recommend you look into joining an AlAnon group for yourself. You may just find there are other spouses who are going through the exact same issues you are with their alcoholic wives and husbands. It's a great support system and it costs nothing but your time.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

doublep said:


> As days go by I get more and more resentful.... The way she acts as though nothing is wrong bothers me to know end.
> 
> On another note, I have someone I have known for years who I know always wanted to be with me. She sends me messages on FB and stuff. Nothing even remotely flirty at all but she told me years ago that she would LOVE to be with me and if anything happened where my wife and I split, look her up.
> 
> I am very sexually attracted to her, probably more now due to this but I will never dis-honor my wife. Ever. It is not an option for me. I know it's silly in this day and age but I am a bit old fashioned that way... *I wont start flirting with this woman. What hurts is I REALLY want to and my instincts are hard to push aside*.....


I don't blame you. After 26 years -- many of which your wife struggled to love you (healthy marital love means sex), and now with your wife having used terms like "I'm done" and usually acting like it -- your gut may be telling you to cut your emotional losses without wasting any more time with her.

it is possible to have a temporary separation where it is understood that seeing others is an option. I would at least use the idea as leverage over your wife's attitude towards MC and towards your marriage. in the meantime figure out a way to not lose touch with your woman friend while staying cool with her until you're ready to move on from your wife.


----------



## Catherine602

doublep said:


> As days go by I get more and more resentful.... The way she acts as though nothing is wrong bothers me to know end.
> 
> On another note, I have someone I have known for years who I know always wanted to be with me. She sends me messages on FB and stuff. Nothing even remotely flirty at all but she told me years ago that she would LOVE to be with me and if anything happened where my wife and I split, look her up.
> 
> I am very sexually attracted to her, probably more now due to this but I will never dis-honor my wife. Ever. It is not an option for me. I know it's silly in this day and age but I am a bit old fashioned that way... I wont start flirting with this woman. What hurts is I REALLY want to and my instincts are hard to push aside.....


I don't think you would be here if you did not consider your wife number one in your life. But you have to make her feel that way with no distractions. 

The contact with this woman that you find sexually attractive during your marriage may be at the root of your problems. It's detracting. 

Moreover your wife may sense your detraction and suspect your continued contact. She may feel like she is 2nd place in your life. If so, my suggestion make sure she feels like #1 and that you have nothing to hide from her. 

Go NC with this woman and clear your mind. Decide on a period of time and make a plan. Pull out all of the stops. Give it your full attention. If you decide to pull the plug, do so because of irreconcilable marital problems not thoughts of this woman.


----------



## Trickster

Catherine602 said:


> I don't think you would be here if you did not consider your wife number one in your life. But you have to make her feel that way with no distractions.
> 
> The contact with this woman that you find sexually attractive during your marriage may be at the root of your problems. It's detracting.
> 
> Moreover your wife may sense your detraction and suspect your continued contact. She may feel like she is 2nd place in your life. If so, my suggestion make sure she feels like #1 and that you have nothing to hide from her.
> 
> Go NC with this woman and clear your mind. Decide on a period of time and make a plan. Pull out all of the stops. Give it your full attention. If you decide to pull the plug, do so because of irreconcilable marital problems not thoughts of this woman.


doublep can do all that and it may not change. It didn't change my wife.Nothing worked until I detached with one foot out the door. I have zero expectations and I feel such a relief. Now my wife is way more romantic and affectionate...

Why is it that an AP doesn't have to put any effort into making a WS feel like they're #1. Usually it's the husband who has to make the wife feel special, cherished and loved. I don't know of many threads where the wife is told to make her H feel like he is #1...

You have a normal healthy though process Catherine. The OP's wife isn't emotionally healthy...


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> I don't think you would be here if you did not consider your wife number one in your life. But you have to make her feel that way with no distractions.
> 
> The contact with this woman that you find sexually attractive during your marriage may be at the root of your problems. It's detracting.
> 
> Moreover your wife may sense your detraction and suspect your continued contact. She may feel like she is 2nd place in your life. If so, my suggestion make sure she feels like #1 and that you have nothing to hide from her.
> 
> Go NC with this woman and clear your mind. Decide on a period of time and make a plan. Pull out all of the stops. Give it your full attention. If you decide to pull the plug, do so because of irreconcilable marital problems not thoughts of this woman.


You have not been reading my post apparently....

My wife gave up on me, not the other way around. I am the one that got the "I love you but.." speech. There was NO detraction, distraction or anything else. I came home one day and got the speech. I have been trying everything to get my wife back to intimacy....

I am an instinctual animal, I am a very sexual man, probably like most. My wife senses nothing because my wife couldn't careless about what I am doing at this point. Currently I am a paycheck and a business partner, period.

So, as days go by I get more and more resentful and the flirting I used to ignore from this other girl now attracts me.


----------



## Machiavelli

doublep said:


> Well, apparently she has no will for sex or any passion. She wants to live as business partners. She wants all the help, all the co-parenting, the combined income but none of the wife or husband duties as in passion, intimacy and closeness.
> 
> What would you men do when confronted with this?.


If my W presented me with this, I would say:

"OK, babe. But I have two 30 something clients who will be joining my harem. Meet your new sister-wives, Elke and Hiromi!"


----------



## Catherine602

doublep said:


> This kids never see her drink, she hides it from them. 90% of the time she does drink, she does not get fall down drunk, that is very rare. Yet, she is still drinking.
> 
> I think the PTSD is severe. Maybe I am just an idiot but she has shed other things she loved... Example:
> 
> Spring time: She used to love doing a garden, tinkering in the yard, fixing things, etc.. You could not keep her in the house. - This year and last she has absolutely NO interest and has done nothing.
> 
> House: She loves to paint, hang pictures, change furniture, curtains, etc... She has done none of that in months.
> 
> She used to love going out to eat, tinkering around in stores and now she barely has enough to go food shopping....
> 
> I feel like an idiot, I should have seen all this.





doublep said:


> She is the type that will and has agreed to MC and her own C. This event in our lives messed her up pretty good. Even though I was the center of it, I think I didn't calculate enough the effect on her.
> 
> As for her drinking... I can not gauge it enough yet. She goes says without drinking then, drinks for 3 days straight (Not fall down drunk but a good buzz). She has tried to get help before for it... She tries, she does.
> 
> At this point I am all in to help her of course.... I dont think it is anything else but depression and PTSD.


I'm confused. You posted that she was depressed and drinking excessively. You also vowed to help her. Apparently, sexual starvation has weakened you to the extent that you are not interested. You did not reveal anything about this OW in the beginning. You said you suspected your wife of cheating when you were the one keeping up contact with a OW. Maybe your wife has a man in the wings too. 

Your marriage is over according to your wife. Lack of sex means the marriage is over for you too. She wants an in-house separation and you want to move on. For the sake of your 3 children, make an orderly exit. Talk to your wife and let her know that it is unfair to you to live in limbo. See a lawyer, come up with separation agreement and D.

I am certain you can wait to have sex with this OW who flirts with a married man with 3 kids and a troubled wife. She sounds desperate enough to stick around to serve. Don't add infidelity to confuse the lives of your children. One parent needs to put them first, why not their father.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> I'm confused. You posted that she was depressed and drinking excessively. You also vowed to help her. Apparently, lack of sex made you forget to make any plans to help her.
> 
> You did not reveal anything about this OW in the beginning. You said you suspected your wife of cheating when you were the one keeping up contact with a OW. Maybe your wife has a man in the wings too.
> 
> Your marriage is over according to your wife. Lack of sex means the marriage is over for you too. She wants an in-house separation and you want to move on. For the sake of your 3 children, make an orderly exit.
> 
> Talk to your wife and let her know that it is unfair to you to live in limbo. See a lawyer, come up with separation and D.
> 
> I am certain you can wait to have sex so that your don't add infidelity to confuse the lives of your children. One parent needs to put them first, why not their father.


Did I say I was going anywhere?
Did I say I was going to have an affair?
Did I say I wasn't helping her?

You know, women need to read up a lot more on men. All I ever hear is how women need this... Women need that... And I listened and did those things emotionally and time wise. Well, men have needs as well and the biggest one is sex. Yes, whether you like it or not we NEED sex.

It is how we are made. We are very different animals and I have been reading a lot on the subject and the main agreement is... Men don't want sex... We *NEED* it. For our own emotional needs, happiness needs, etc.... 

I love how quick you are willing to dismiss all my needs and my complaints but are so quick to push on me as some how I did something wrong... I didn't. I am a good husband... Not perfect but a damn good one.


----------



## Catherine602

doublep said:


> You have not been reading my post apparently....
> 
> My wife gave up on me, not the other way around. I am the one that got the "I love you but.." speech. There was NO detraction, distraction or anything else. I came home one day and got the speech. I have been trying everything to get my wife back to intimacy....
> 
> I am an instinctual animal, I am a very sexual man, probably like most. My wife senses nothing because my wife couldn't careless about what I am doing at this point. Currently I am a paycheck and a business partner, period.
> 
> So, as days go by I get more and more resentful and the flirting I used to ignore from this other girl now attracts me.


Having sex is first on your list but not on your wife's list at all. Getting her life together seems to be first on your wife's list and does not appear to be on your list at all. 

You can no longer fulfill each others needs. Stop banging your head on a stone wall and start acting. Use your energy to plan and act and not to chase what is no longer there. It's not good for you.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> Having sex is first on your list but not on your wife's list at all. Getting her life together seems to be first on your wife's list and does not appear to be on your list at all.
> 
> You can no longer fulfill each others needs. Stop banging your head on a stone wall and start acting. Use your energy to plan and act and not to chase what is no longer there. It's not good for you.


You could not be more right.....


----------



## Catherine602

doublep said:


> Did I say I was going anywhere?
> Did I say I was going to have an affair?
> Did I say I wasn't helping her?
> 
> You know, women need to read up a lot more on men. All I ever hear is how women need this... Women need that... And I listened and did those things emotionally and time wise. Well, men have needs as well and the biggest one is sex. Yes, whether you like it or not we NEED sex.
> 
> It is how we are made. We are very different animals and I have been reading a lot on the subject and the main agreement is... Men don't want sex... We *NEED* it. For our own emotional needs, happiness needs, etc....
> 
> I love how quick you are willing to dismiss all my needs and my complaints but are so quick to push on me as some how I did something wrong... I didn't. I am a good husband... Not perfect but a damn good one.


Dou The only way that you will be able to get thru this do something different. I really don't think your wife wants to lose you. She thinks that no matter how she treats you, you will not ever leave.

Her proposal is utterly ridiculous and unfair. How can you say that you have no intention of leaving. She may take this as a temporary break from the marriage. Yet you let her plan go ahead. 

How can you get her respect? Don't agree with this plan. Come up with a plan that is best for your kids, yourself and your wife. If she has to accept that he decision is final, then she may realize that she needs and loves you. 

If she does turn around, she has to show complete commitment to the marriage. The requirements should be set by you. Don't ever get yourself into a position where she is too sure of you. That is a recipe for doormat status.


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## bandit.45

180 time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> 180 time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What do you mean?


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## bandit.45

The 180. I'll dig it up and post it for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

I know men need sex to maintain a loving connection. Sometimes a temporary moratorium on wanting to have sex with a partner is appropriate. When your desire to have sex puts you in a position of seeming weak and needy. 

Cool down and know that you have options. You can take them and still keep your character and values. If your partner realizes that there are boundaries that if crossed you will nuke the relationship. A sense of commitment and willingness to go endure bad times has limits. It's set by each individual. The limits must be in place or you will put up with anything. 

You can get sex easily. You don't have to be manipulated and treated unfairly. Even by a woman you love. It is not that much of a need that it is worth being disrespected. 

Calm down and think and plan. It will take time but start.


----------



## bandit.45

Here you go...

*The 180



Q: 

What is 180 and how does it work? 

A: 

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. 

So here's the list: 

Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 

No frequent phone calls. 

Don't point out "good points" in marriage. 

Don't follow her/him around the house. 

Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future. 

Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS. 

Don't ask for reassurances. 

Don't buy or give gifts. 

Don't schedule dates together. 

Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable. 

Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 

Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 

Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! 

When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to! 

If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested. 

Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are moving on with your life! With out them possibly! 

Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing. 

No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value. 

All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation! 

Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! Don't be overly enthusiastic. 

Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all! 
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more! 

Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything. 

Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil. 

Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly. 

Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write. 

Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy. 

Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care! 

Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior. 

Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!" 

Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message. 

When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. 

Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW." 


*


----------



## Catherine602

You can support your wife to the best of your abilities and suitable to the circumstances. If she does not want to stay married, there are consequences. That's real life. Reality makes us all take responsibility for our problems. 

She has to give up as much as you. Why would it be otherwise. Your anger and frustration is because she gives up nothing and you foot the emotional burden. Not fair.


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

The 180 is a lot harder to do with kids. 

I really know what you are going through.

I was ready to move out and everything. It wasn't pretty.

That was when I joined a hiking group and volunteer work. I still spent time with my daughter and didn't feel bad because the time I was away, my daughter had friends over and I didn't see her anyway. My wife and I were silent and didn't talk much when I was home so hiking was a better option.

Then came the lunch dates with female friends... Nothing phased my wife at all.

It changed when I no longer got upset from lack of sex. We have gone a long time without sexbefore, but I was frustrated and she knew it.

The 180.... I am not upset at all when we don't have sex... I am more cheerful because I no longer have that "need".

I am talking about other women now... Not in a sexual way. I can't really say what else has changed except my attitude. 

You are in for a bumpy ride...hang on tight.


Put on you happy face.


----------



## Catherine602

Dou I read the article in the link below about a year ago. I found it again. I know you think it is all about what men have to do for women. This is more of the same. But it is a reasonable and may pay off for you. My impression is that you are too emotionally dependent on your wife. This article explains that better. A man with a plan and independence is attractive. It indicates a capacity to handle yourself in the world. 

You may need to lead her out of this morass and not leave her to her own devices and plans. You can influence the outcome. Insert some kind of sense and reason into the mix. She is on an emotional spiral and you are too. Someone needs to take hold. 

How Often Should Married Couples Have Sex? - WSJ.com


----------



## Trickster

You know Catherine

I would tell doublep- to not read a single book. I read so many book on marriage and every night, my wife watched me read the books and I almost bet she was laughing inside. I was reading and I was the one with the problem and I was the one to fix me and all would be better.

I am assuming Mrs. doublep- is similar to Mrs. Trickster... She pretty much said the same thing to me. 

Mrs. T wants

Friendship/companionship

Intact home for our daughter

When I got rid of all the marriage books (I think I had about 10 books, that's when she changed. 

What are you telling double to do... Be more affectionate?more loving? More understanding?

Or 

be more Alpha?

I think the damage is done. Mrs. double already said she isn't in love and hasn't been for a long time.

What will happen when he wantsvto be affectionate?

Doesn't seem like she has any interest.


----------



## Catherine602

Trick you're right. I read for understanding and exploring and only a few books. Changes in my knowledge base, effects my behavior. I don't read and follow formulas.

You seem to have been searching for a magic key to relationships. It does not exist. There is a key for you and your wife that you have to find. It's based on who you both are as people with the unique overlay of gender. Once you find it it does seem like magic. 

For example, my husbands hard work to give me and our kids a good life. The ability to support selflessly is an indication of a man's love and commitment. I bet there are things that your wife does that you don't notice are signs of love because that is not the way you show love. 

Men are still mysterious to me but, at lest intellectually, I know more than I did before joining TAM. Not all of it applies to my husband. Basically, the knowledge helped me to accept that he does not think like me. 

I didn't realize I could be happy in a relationship with an alien.


----------



## Jasel

Ive read this entire thread. Trickster has pretty much drawn you a map of how you need to approach this situation. Get your wife off the pedestal (honestly besides her getting a job you havent given one positive quality about her), stop letting her hold the reins while she drives your marriage off a cliff, stop agreeing to her ridiculouos requests, and start making moves to either move out or divorce. I mean you went through this before with her and when it became clear you were moving on SHE wanted YOU back. How are you not seeing this? Ya keep holding onto her for dear life like you've been doing. Because that's CLEARLY been working: / And honestly Id be more concerned with her drinking and depression at this point in time.


----------



## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> Here you go...
> 
> *The 180
> 
> 
> 
> Q:
> 
> What is 180 and how does it work?
> 
> A:
> 
> 180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive.
> 
> So here's the list:
> 
> Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
> 
> No frequent phone calls.
> 
> Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
> 
> Don't follow her/him around the house.
> 
> Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
> 
> Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
> 
> Don't ask for reassurances.
> 
> Don't buy or give gifts.
> 
> Don't schedule dates together.
> 
> Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
> 
> Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
> 
> Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
> 
> Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
> 
> When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
> 
> If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
> 
> Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack there of) of your marriage. Thus, you are moving on with your life! With out them possibly!
> 
> Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
> 
> No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
> 
> All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
> 
> Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! Don't be overly enthusiastic.
> 
> Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
> Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
> 
> Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
> 
> Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
> 
> Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
> 
> Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
> 
> Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
> 
> Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
> 
> Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
> 
> Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"
> 
> Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
> 
> When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual.
> 
> Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."
> 
> 
> *



Simply awesome....
This I will do. Not only because it is healthy for me... But because it is right.


----------



## doublep

Jasel said:


> Ive read this entire thread. Trickster has pretty much drawn you a map of how you need to approach this situation. Get your wife off the pedestal (honestly besides her getting a job you havent given one positive quality about her), stop letting her hold the reins while she drives your marriage off a cliff, stop agreeing to her ridiculouos requests, and start making moves to either move out or divorce. I mean you went through this before with her and when it became clear you were moving on SHE wanted YOU back. How are you not seeing this? Ya keep holding onto her for dear life like you've been doing. Because that's CLEARLY been working: / And honestly Id be more concerned with her drinking and depression at this point in time.


Someone said it earlier....
I think I am in love with the memory of her.

You are right, it's time for me now.


----------



## Trickster

doublep--

When I first started working on the 180, I didn't feel it was working. 

Reading MMSLP didn't seem to phase her one little bit.

The 180, I ignored my wife and did my thing. I felt so bad because it wasn't me...

Initially it made things worse... Be ready for that.

MMSLP? The last phase is when you realize nothing will improve and its time to move on. If it's a "business" relationship your wife wants, just negotiate the terms...


The one thing that happened when I realized I changed was...

Most days, I work long hours and I skip lunch... My choice, I am self employed and take the work when it comes... Well when I came home hungry, my wife was eating the leftovers that I made the night before. Then made some weird comment that I was home earlier than she thought and she was about to make dinner for me... I knew she didn't plan on doing that... I smiled and said "that's OK, I'll make a sandwhich". So that's what I had for dinner... I honestly wasn't upset. NOT AT ALL.. Before, I wouldn't of smiled and I would of been grumpy all evening...I never expect a hot dinner waiting for me, but when she does have the time to do it and just thinks of herself first, I would be upset... Not any more. I think my wife was expecting a reaction from me and it didn't happen...I stayed happy all evening and I was. I wasn't acting...

No matter what with the 180, don't get frustrated. Don't even think frustration, it will show...that's where the detaching comes in to play...


As far as this other woman you're friends with... If you share a computer, don't hide anything... Let your wife know you have female friends... Sometimes I leave my email open and it showes my in box...I don't think she cares one way or another...I just know I am not hiding anything.

I think it freaked out my wife when I got rid of my marriage books. That's when I realized I was done...I was really hurt and have been for a while...Thanks to Catherine, Blonde, and a few others who helped me to realize I was feeling sorry for myself and I was needy.

What is so strange now is that I put very little effort into our marriage now and we have more sex than we were having being that doormat. I WAS also a pain in the butt sometimes. Now, my wife comes to bed with just a shirt when she wants sex... She even slaps my butt in the evening...I just wish she didn't have stubble on her thighs. She may not be "in love" with me, but it does seem like she desires me more now than ever before.


----------



## doublep

So today it came out... She doesn't love me as a husband. We agreed to stay in the home for the kids, I don't know if that is the right decision but that is it for me.. As far as intimacy, I will move on to get it....

As for her... I no longer care.


----------



## Catherine602

Does she say what happened? It seems so sudden. Your children will be exposed to such confusion living with a mother and father who are essentially living separate lives. That can't be good for them.


----------



## bandit.45

Ask her to move out. An in house separation will be terrible. 

There is another man. Her behavior reeks of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

Don't think your children won't notice their parents don't care about each other. They definitely will.


----------



## Trickster

doublep said:


> So today it came out... She doesn't love me as a husband. We agreed to stay in the home for the kids, I don't know if that is the right decision but that is it for me.. As far as intimacy, I will move on to get it....
> 
> As for her... I no longer care.



Ugghhhh


You kinda knew this already when she said ILYBNILWY...

That's what my wife told me as well...I does hurt... 

For now, its the right decision for y'all. It will change. I was an emotional wreck. Don't let that happen to you. One minute you will be just fine with that decision, the next, you will want to leave....

Don't show any frustration. Continue with the 180...for you. Continue the 180, continue the 180...

Did I mention continue the 180?

My wife and I have an open marriage contract. TAMMERS slaughtered me on that... It won't hold up in court, but years from now, when our daughter is much much older, she will know it had nothing to do with her.

There is no right or wrong. It just is.

Did I mention to do the 180?


----------



## Trickster

bandit.45 said:


> Ask her to move out. An in house separation will be terrible.
> 
> There is another man. Her behavior reeks of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Its her house too... She doesn't have to move out.


----------



## Tobyboy

bandit.45 said:


> Ask her to move out. An in house separation will be terrible.
> 
> There is another man. Her behavior reeks of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree!!! 

She has replaced you!! Was she on her phone all day?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

bandit.45 said:


> Ask her to move out. An in house separation will be terrible.
> 
> There is another man. Her behavior reeks of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Even if that is true. doublep no longer cares.


----------



## Thound

Trickster said:


> Ugghhhh
> 
> 
> You kinda knew this already when she said ILYBNILWY...
> 
> That's what my wife told me as well...I does hurt...
> 
> For now, its the right decision for y'all. It will change. I was an emotional wreck. Don't let that happen to you. One minute you will be just fine with that decision, the next, you will want to leave....
> 
> Don't show any frustration. Continue with the 180...for you. Continue the 180, continue the 180...
> 
> Did I mention continue the 180?
> 
> My wife and I have an open marriage contract. TAMMERS slaughtered me on that... It won't hold up in court, but years from now, when our daughter is much much older, she will know it had nothing to do with her.
> 
> There is no right or wrong. It just is.
> 
> Did I mention to do the 180?


I dont know if it has been mentioned yet, but keep doing the 180.


----------



## bandit.45

Trickster said:


> Its her house too... She doesn't have to move out.


Nothing ventured nothing gained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doublep

No she wasn't on her phone... She just says she fell out of love with me. I can not change her feelings and no longer will I be held hostage to try and make it work. I will move on and find someone that wants to be with me.

The only reason I am staying or not telling her to move is my daughter, she made me promise not to leave. 

I will do the 180, that will be easy now. The resentment I have for her is hard to take right now....

You are a good man Trickster.
Thank you.


----------



## Trickster

bandit.45 said:


> Nothing ventured nothing gained.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



It is possible.

The wife of one of my hiking buddies said about the same thing. She ended up moving out. She asked the kids who they wanted to live with. They chose him and the house. The wife was the one to get a small apartment. 

From what it seems though Mrs. doublep wants to keep the family together. She doesn't see the problem with the fact there is no love. 

My wife is the same...

I am out there practicing being single. That's why my wife is all romantic now...I can't stop the freight train at this point...There are so many single women out there in their late forties and even younger who just want to have fun...I am not worried anymore.

doublep- this set up may last a year or so, if that. Once you put yourself out there and some women respond, you will rethink this in house separation setup...

Our contract is for one year. My wife already wants to void the contract.


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

Thanks for the complement. Many times, I don't feel like I am a good man.

We can make all the promises in the world to our children. We can do our best to keep them, no matter how painful it is. Somebody will have to pay for it eventually. The dam will burst...

My wife loves me in her way. You're wife loves you in her way as well. Its just not the romantic love. It's the same with my wife. 

Be the best dad you can be...let that be your motivation.

Is your wife OK if you date other women?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

doublep said:


> So today it came out... She doesn't love me as a husband. We agreed to stay in the home for the kids, I don't know if that is the right decision but that is it for me.. As far as intimacy, I will move on to get it....
> 
> As for her... I no longer care.


I understand your feelings, but I find it extremely frustrating that the situation is so little explained.

It must be that she is cheating. No other explanation fits this colorless bland 'she does not love you as a husband'.

She is sad because of the situation. She is sorry for you and the kids.

She has another.


----------



## Mostlycontent

doublep said:


> No she wasn't on her phone... She just says she fell out of love with me. I can not change her feelings and no longer will I be held hostage to try and make it work. I will move on and find someone that wants to be with me.
> 
> The only reason I am staying or not telling her to move is my daughter, she made me promise not to leave.
> 
> I will do the 180, that will be easy now. The resentment I have for her is hard to take right now....
> 
> You are a good man Trickster.
> Thank you.


I'm sorry to hear that, man. Just go out and mingle a bit to get your feet wet. I still think there may be a chance if she sees that you're interested and attracted to other women and once they begin to reciprocate, she may regain her interest in you. That's really the last hand you can play at this point.


----------



## bandit.45

Her next step will be to start spending more time away from the house. It will begin soon. Just wait.

I mentioned this in another thread: Thorburn's fWW would get off for lunch, pick up her affair partner, and they would drive out to the woods and have sex in the back of her SUV. She had made her Jeep into a moveable love nest. Cost her no money and she was back to work at the end of the hour. She conducted her entire affair out of the back of that Jeep. 

With waywards, if there is a will there is a way. 

Put a VAR in her car. 




_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

So she is offering you an open marriage. Accept the offer. If you come home happy, that cannot hurt.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## LongWalk

Trickster,

Your wife already wants to void the contract! Haha, amazing.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## EasyPartner

See_Listen_Love said:


> I understand your feelings, but I find it extremely frustrating that the situation is so little explained.
> 
> It must be that she is cheating. No other explanation fits this colorless bland 'she does not love you as a husband'.
> 
> She is sad because of the situation. She is sorry for you and the kids.
> 
> She has another.


Not necessarily.

It's a variation on the ILYB speech that is given in a variety of circumstances. My bet, she's a wannabee WAW.

Although, she may have some kind of mental affair going on in her head, with a man she doesn't even have met yet.

Agree with the sad and sorry. But sad and sorry might prevent her to leave (for now) but it's not going to make her love OP again like she should.

Once that switch has been flipped, it's damn near impossible to unflip it.

As for the 180, also known as the LRT, read my thread on the subject.

Realize what you're going to do. Just saying.


----------



## doublep

I will explain everything that happened last night.

After 3 talks previously, she gave me different stories. At first she gave the ILYB speech. So, when I threatened to leave she gave me the "why are you so desperate to leave?" answer which confused me. Our second conversation she stated, "I love you. I just have issues right now" and I was all in to help her.

Last night was completely different again. These are the phrases she used:

"I will always love you, we spent 26 years together, I care about what happens to you."

"I dont love you in a husband way"

"I want to stay in the home for the kids and be here for the kids but separated."

" I am not sexually attracted to you" (When I asked)

" It hurts me to hurt you like this"

************************

As for cheating or an affair:
She insists there is not one. She just says she is not even remotely sexual anymore and to her credit she never really was, I had to chase her a lot of this marriage.

If she is cheating its at work because she is always either hom or there at work. She is always around. Her texts are clean, her emails are clean, I searched her history (I repair Computers and build them I know how to retrieve deleted items and scan mem changes). There is nothing there. 

I think at this point she wants to be a WAW. At a time when I needed her most... she does this. I dont think at this point I could even go back. My sadness now and my confusion is for my children. I dont know what is the right choice or wrong as far as staying.....


----------



## bandit.45

180 and lawyer. 

Don't do an in-house separation. You will be miserable and it will mess the kids up worse than a divorce ever would.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thound

You might try detaching without cheating. Get buff and work on yourself. Do the 180.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

This is eerily similar doublep

Do what thound said

Work out detatch, 180, workout.

practice being single.

test the waters

flirt with women 

talk to other women

have a date night for yourself, if a women joins you, all the better. Give her the same option.

It doesn't mean you need to have a PA, just get out and meet people. 

My wife doesn't understand why I would throw out 22 years. So she gave me freedom in order to stay married. 

So my wife is willing to stay married to a man she isn't in love with the the benefit of our daughter...

doublep-

Your wife may give you so much freedom that it will make you feel so guilty when you do go out with a woman... That's where I am at...especially because when she realized another woman is interested in me...That's when she comes to bed without any except a T-shirt...


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> This is eerily similar doublep
> 
> Do what thound said
> 
> Work out detatch, 180, workout.
> 
> practice being single.
> 
> test the waters
> 
> flirt with women
> 
> talk to other women
> 
> have a date night for yourself, if a women joins you, all the better. Give her the same option.
> 
> It doesn't mean you need to have a PA, just get out and meet people.
> 
> My wife doesn't understand why I would throw out 22 years. So she gave me freedom in order to stay married.
> 
> So my wife is willing to stay married to a man she isn't in love with the the benefit of our daughter...
> 
> doublep-
> 
> Your wife may give you so much freedom that it will make you feel so guilty when you do go out with a woman... That's where I am at...especially because when she realized another woman is interested in me...That's when she comes to bed without any except a T-shirt...


That is exactly my plan....


----------



## bandit.45

Why not just divorce amicably as possible, work at being good coparents, then you can go out and bang all the honeys you want without guilt? Cheating in any form or manner is just going to devalue you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

bandit.45 said:


> Why not just divorce amicably as possible, work at being good coparents, then you can go out and bang all the honeys you want without guilt? Cheating in any form or manner is just going to devalue you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


An amicable D is what normal people do!


----------



## bandit.45

Trickster you do remember that this is a pro-marriage forum right? I don't remember this being a pro-adultery site.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Trickster said:


> Your wife may give you so much freedom that it will make you feel so guilty when you do go out with a woman... That's where I am at...especially because when she realized another woman is interested in me...That's when she comes to bed without any except a T-shirt...


Women have to have their sexual choices per-validated then consistently reinforced by the herd or they decide the man in question is sexually unattractive and they "lose their libido." Up the sex rank by way of pulling women (even if its only the eye) and the libido is magically rediscovered. It ain't rocket science...but, it is limbic mating biology.


----------



## Trickster

bandit.45 said:


> Trickster you do remember that this is a pro-marriage forum right? I don't remember this being a pro-adultery site.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not telling doublep to have a full blown affair. However, when another woman comes along, either doublep will have the confidence to move on and D at all cost or his wife will wake up. I think double would be just fine if his wife initiated a D. Then it would be more amicable.


That's what the 180 and MMSLP is all about.


----------



## Nucking Futs

bandit.45 said:


> Why not just divorce amicably as possible, work at being good coparents, then you can go out and bang all the honeys you want without guilt? Cheating in any form or manner is just going to devalue you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Bandit's right. I really don't like where this is headed.

What kind of quality woman is going to want to be with a man who is still married and living with his wife? Doublep, divorce her and move on. Find a woman who will be a good wife to you and a good stepmother to your children. Your children will be better off in the long term if they have at least a part time exposure to a good marriage rather than a full time exposure to this current dysfunction you're calling a family.


----------



## bandit.45

Trickster said:


> I am not telling doublep to have a full blown affair. However, when another woman comes along, either doublep will have the confidence to move on and D at all cost or his wife will wake up. I think double would be just fine if his wife initiated a D. Then it would be more amicable.
> 
> 
> That's what the 180 and MMSLP is all about.


That's playing with fire. 

What if the hottie he meets comes on so strong she ends up dragging him in a broom closet? No time to dangle her in front of Mrs. Freeze to make her jealous. 

He's been bereft of loving for months. The first sweet thang who climbs on his lap is going to get devoured like a cracker by a starving man. 

Its a bad idea. He needs to file for separation and divorce, THEN spread the love.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Doublep:

a few comments:

-- as we often say trust your gut vis-a-vis whether a spouse is cheating. Your gut is telling you no. based on what you have told us, your wife's strange back and forth behavior is explainable by how troubled she is IMO. She needs an assessment regarding how depressed she is on the standard psychological scale.

-- in the meantime, and this is just the way I look at it - you have the right to consider your marriage OVER, right now, in every way. The separation you enter into now should allow dating of other people, and I don't see much point in commiting to a sexless existence unless your state and your situation allows for an expedited divorce. just be honest with your xwife (I like the idea of leaving your email open for her to see to underscore you're not hiding anything)

-- but the so-called 'inhouse' separation could lead to the complications others have raised in the last few posts. you can't give a 15 year old say in how a (now) broken family reorganizes itself. We all feel for her but these are adult decisions, and you seem to be the only functioning adult in your home right now. If your family expenses allow you should consider taking an apartment just a mile or two from where you live now. that, it seems to me, is in everyone's best interests.


----------



## LongWalk

Bandit,

TAM is pro-marriage, but if a spouse has an offer of an open marriage, e.g. Trickster, that is is their business. They make their own rules. Adultery is that has a spouse's sanction is not really cheating.

Limbic attraction:

LostLove's wife left him and had sexual relations with 4 or 5 men while their divorce was uncertain. Once he did start pushing for divorce they had holiday by the sea to find out whether she could desire him again. He got a bit of reluctant making out but no sex.

At last he started seeing a women. It is uncertain if his wife learned of this. However, his level of self confidence must have been palpable, for his wife sudden began to speak of reconciliation. Her explanation for her year of finding herself was due to an "emotional breakdown". 

A WAW who becomes a sex partner to several different men without getting an offer marriage may feel pretty depressed. Suddenly the revitalized stbxh does look stronger. LL has not posted since the R question hung in the air.


----------



## Wazza

I'm highly amused by all the "TAM is pro marriage" discussion given the number of times I have been criticised for reconciling rather than kicking my wife to the curb. "Recklessly advocating reconciliation" is how one poster put it 

I have seen in-house separation work. I have even seen marriages go there and come back to being successful marriages. (I guess in a sense my own marriage is one. I stayed for the kids! Though sex, while infrequent, was never totally off the table). I can't say how often it works, but I know it can.

The key thing in the cases I have seen is people who have the wherewithal to have a civil and effective relationship. So Double P if you were ok with it, then maybe it can work for you, but if you are sitting there pining for your wife like a hungry dog whose meal is just out of reach, it would be much harder for you to be civil and positive. 

There is a whole other discussion about what constitutes a positive role model. Some will say you are modelling a second rate marriage by contemplating this. I disagree. For me part of the marriage contract was about providing a stable environment for the kids. Sure, I missed out on some stuff in the lean years, and there was some personal sadness, but there are a whole lot of risks my kids were not exposed to, and I am happy with that.


----------



## Wazza

nuclearnightmare said:


> you seem to be the only functioning adult in your home right now.


Sorry, I think this is way harsh. Two very sad people in a difficult situation. Just because the wife has problems does NOT make her a non functioning adult. Let's recognise that she is talking about her problems, and looking for solutions. Maybe the in-house separation is about financial security and cake eating (in which case bad) or maybe it is about the kids (in which case it deserves some respect IMO).


----------



## bandit.45

I don't have a problem with the OP filing for legal separation, moving out and dating other women. But to be actively dating while living under the same roof in some weird quasi-separation to me sounds ludicrous and destined to fail badly. 

Nope. I don't buy the open marriage thing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doublep

Wazza said:


> Sorry, I think this is way harsh. Two very sad people in a difficult situation. Just because the wife has problems does NOT make her a non functioning adult. Let's recognise that she is talking about her problems, and looking for solutions. Maybe the in-house separation is about financial security and cake eating (in which case bad) or maybe it is about the kids (in which case it deserves some respect IMO).



She is a good mother, I would never say otherwise.
As for me, I don't think this in home separation is going to work, I can't look at her without resentment and a bit of hate on the timing of all this.

I am seriously thinking of getting a small apartment, I gave 26 years of my life to this woman and she had no problem telling me her feelings... Well, here is mine. I won't live in a loveless marriage. There are far too many women out there that would love to have what I can offer... Stability, love, fun and affection. If she decides 6 months down the road she wants back in.... Too late, I loved her but words that are said in 10 seconds can scar a life time and you can't take them back.


----------



## Wazza

doublep said:


> She is a good mother, I would never say otherwise.
> As for me, I don't think this in home separation is going to work, I can't look at her without resentment and a bit of hate on the timing of all this.
> 
> I am seriously thinking of getting a small apartment, I gave 26 years of my life to this woman and she had no problem telling me her feelings... Well, here is mine. I won't live in a loveless marriage. There are far too many women out there that would love to have what I can offer... Stability, love, fun and affection. If she decides 6 months down the road she wants back in.... Too late, I loved her but words that are said in 10 seconds can scar a life time and you can't take them back.


Totally reasonable position. If you are sure, act quickly and get it done. Start healing.


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## bandit.45

If you don't file for D right away, at least file for legal separation. That way you won't be liable for any debt she racks up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Do you live in a no fault state or country? Do your kids know what's going on?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

doublep-

I started several post and deleted them all...

So here I go again...


If you can actually move out you'd be doing better than me one year ago.

I gave in to the guilt of leaving my daughter. I didn't know how to logistically see my daughter without disrupting her world...

That's when my wife gave me the freedom... "Stay...you can see other women if you want. We can have the friendship/companionship and have the intact family. You can have date nights if you want. " guys night out"". That was about one year ago. Although it's temporarily better now, it was the worst emotional rollercoaster ever. 

The open marriage contract came in February. 

Once you have that first date, your wife will not want to let you go without a fight. She doesn't want out of the marriage and she more than likely doesn't want you to move out.

You are still married if you move out. 

Do you plan on starting the D process soon?

This is what your wife feared would happen, which is why she kept her feelings to herself. 


Stay strong my friend...


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> I started several post and deleted them all...
> 
> So here I go again...
> 
> 
> If you can actually move out you'd be doing better than me one year ago.
> 
> I gave in to the guilt of leaving my daughter. I didn't know how to logistically see my daughter without disrupting her world...
> 
> That's when my wife gave me the freedom... "Stay...you can see other women if you want. We can have the friendship/companionship and have the intact family. You can have date nights if you want. " guys night out"". That was about one year ago. Although it's temporarily better now, it was the worst emotional rollercoaster ever.
> 
> The open marriage contract came in February.
> 
> Once you have that first date, your wife will not want to let you go without a fight. She doesn't want out of the marriage and she more than likely doesn't want you to move out.
> 
> You are still married if you move out.
> 
> Do you plan on starting the D process soon?
> 
> This is what your wife feared would happen, which is why she kept her feelings to herself.
> 
> 
> Stay strong my friend...


She flat out told me: "I don't love you like a husband" and "I am not sexually attracted to you" - Those are words you can not take back and they cut me deep.... Real deep. I dont think you say them unless you are totally done. 

I only hesitate for my daughter..... But the more I read and learn, most do not recommend staying in a separated home.


----------



## TheBaxter

I was just reading through your thread. The things your wife is telling you is exactly what my ex wife told me the last year of our marriage. What I was oblivious to was that she was having a sexual affair with an old boyfriend. 

I hope your wife isn't cheating on you, but I agree you should not sit there and be emotionally abused by her. I'm so sorry for you friend. I know how you feel.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

doublep said:


> She flat out told me: "I don't love you like a husband" and "I am not sexually attracted to you" - Those are words you can not take back and they cut me deep.... Real deep. I dont think you say them unless you are totally done.
> 
> I only hesitate for my daughter..... But the more I read and learn, most do not recommend staying in a separated home.




My daughter is everything to me....She is my world... She is 10 now and for over 8 years now, I carry her in my arms up to her room at night and carry her back down in the morning. That is our ritual. I didn't think I would still be doing that at her age... It won't last much longer. I enjoy helping her with homework and I love reading to her most nights... I enjoy our bike rides on the pro-piolet /tandem bike... 

I love my daughter more than my need to be loved by another woman. That's the bottom line. 

My wife and I get along great. We never argue. Most nights we sleep in the same bed. She just loves me as a friend...She isn't sexually attracted to me either... But we have sex still... Just like your wife, she told me she isn't sexually attracted to anybody. It no longer hurts. Sex is just a physical release...no feelings anymore.

My wife gets what she wants, but she knows its just a matter of time. If a woman comes along who rocks my world, I may change my mind.... 


I know you are hurt and you want to leave. I did too. I actually had a female friend i could have move in with... (Friend). and I backed out.I think I still have that option...She is a friend that I've known for 12 years for so...I think at the time, she had another roommate (female) as well... I didn't think I wanted to live with two women... I can just imagine what that would look like in D court.


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## LongWalk

Trickster,

You have no idea how much better you sound since you have regained some sense of self respect in the context of your marriage. It was an agony to read your posts before the open marriage concession from your wife. Before that you sounded like a prisoner who refused to open the door of an unlocked cage.

I hope you go on dates and get laid by other women. Your wife will probably start begging you for sexual attention. She will find it exciting to want to win you back. She opened the pandora's box of allowing you freedom to date. Take it.

Doublep,

If you go and read Trickster's thread, you may see what a long road it is. RoadScholar's thread might also be instructive. His wife refused to have sex with him for 5 months. Only when he got ready to leave did she find her libido.


----------



## Trickster

Thanks LW, I feel so much better..

doublep-

I showed your OP to my wife and few of the other posts. Mrs. T and Mrs. d have much in common. I wanted to get her perspective...

She saw nothing wrong with staying married for the intact family. I knew she would say that. Staying married until the kids are grown and blah blah blah...

She also said that your wife is bored with marriage and wants excitement. Not necessarily with romance, but having time to hang out with friends or something... She said you wife just doesn't seem to know what that is yet. You wife has to have the freedom to find out who she is....She said y'all should have an open marriage... My wife is an odd creature.

So I told her that I was going to ask a woman out on a date....She honestly acted like she was a buddy I was telling it to...

Then we discussed D... Although we see each other as "friends" , if we D, our "friendship" is over. My wife and I are not friends like I have always thought we were. We just tolerate each other. You and your wife are not friends either.

You and I have a big decision to make my friend. You and I will divorce our wife, it's just a matter of when.

We are planning a amicable divorce. No anger, no fighting.... It's all calm conversations. I want this to stay calm until that time comes. We need our exit plan. It will happen. We just have to take care of finances.

It will happen for you as well. 

Stay calm, find things to do that make you happy, think about what you are willing to give your wife just to be free of her... Think of your freedom that will come afterwards. See the light at the end of the tunnel..

As Dory said on finding Memo..." Just keep swimming"

Stay calm

There is no rush.

Really think about the game plan and don't let it turn into a fight. Keep on smiling.


----------



## Catherine602

Don't forget your most important role and responsibility ..... father and nurturer for your 3 children. That will take the bulk of your time and effort. 

The investment will pay off. You'll have a great relationship with loving and well adjusted children. I know that reward is not your primary concern when it comes to being a father.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Wazza said:


> Sorry, I think this is way harsh. Two very sad people in a difficult situation. Just because the wife has problems does NOT make her a non functioning adult. Let's recognise that she is talking about her problems, and looking for solutions. Maybe the in-house separation is about financial security and cake eating (in which case bad) or maybe it is about the kids (in which case it deserves some respect IMO).


I'm not shy about being harsh when it fits the situation. however this particular comment was not meant that way. a bit of hyperbole, perhaps, but OP's wife sounds like she might be seriously depressed, with a drinking problem as well. adults dealing with those things can indeed be, as a practical matter, nonfunctioing. e.g. emotionally unavailable, and their judgment can be affected as well.


----------



## happi_g_more2

nuclearnightmare said:


> I'm not shy about being harsh when it fits the situation. however this particular comment was not meant that way. a bit of hyperbole, perhaps, but OP's wife sounds like she might be seriously depressed, with a drinking problem as well. adults dealing with those things can indeed be, as a practical matter, nonfunctioing. e.g. emotionally unavailable, and their judgment can be affected as well.


Long term alcoholism can really f up a persons psyche. The cycles of depression are relentless. 

When does your wife drink? during normal hours? If so, does she her mood change right before? I found that some people have a super mood up shift right before...the body knows its coming. Some get super agitated up until the time they get it. 
"Functioning" alcoholism can be a real bear.


----------



## Wazza

nuclearnightmare said:


> I'm not shy about being harsh when it fits the situation. however this particular comment was not meant that way. a bit of hyperbole, perhaps, but OP's wife sounds like she might be seriously depressed, with a drinking problem as well. adults dealing with those things can indeed be, as a practical matter, nonfunctioing. e.g. emotionally unavailable, and their judgment can be affected as well.


Functioning / nonfunctioning is a continuum, not a switch. I am sure she is not at her best, and I doubt OP is either assuming he is human. 

Whether she is a total mess and mentally off the rails, or a person trying to sort out a difficult situation as beat she can, I am not sure.

Suppose you found your spouse just didn't love you. What would you want them to do? What should she do different? Obviously, the in house separation is a controversial idea. But is she supposed to just not have those feelings? Or hide them? There is a danger here that we are crucifying her for being honest.

I don't think a focus on blaming her would help OP. He is thinking it through and deciding what he wants, and that is good.


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> I started several post and deleted them all...
> 
> So here I go again...
> 
> 
> If you can actually move out you'd be doing better than me one year ago.
> 
> I gave in to the guilt of leaving my daughter. I didn't know how to logistically see my daughter without disrupting her world...
> 
> That's when my wife gave me the freedom... "Stay...you can see other women if you want. We can have the friendship/companionship and have the intact family. You can have date nights if you want. " guys night out"". That was about one year ago. Although it's temporarily better now, it was the worst emotional rollercoaster ever.
> 
> The open marriage contract came in February.
> 
> Once you have that first date, your wife will not want to let you go without a fight. She doesn't want out of the marriage and she more than likely doesn't want you to move out.
> 
> You are still married if you move out.
> 
> Do you plan on starting the D process soon?
> 
> This is what your wife feared would happen, which is why she kept her feelings to herself.
> 
> 
> Stay strong my friend...


Well, tonight I have decided to tell her I am leaving. I have been reading a lot and most agree that it is harder for the kids to stay in a loveless marriage, besides she is unwilling to get personal help to see if it is PTSD, depression, etc.... She seems pretty convinced she just doesn't love me anymore.

So, I will move on. If the day comes she wants back in... I wont be there.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Trickster said:


> Thanks LW, I feel so much better..
> 
> doublep-
> 
> I showed your OP to my wife and few of the other posts. Mrs. T and Mrs. d have much in common. I wanted to get her perspective...
> 
> She saw nothing wrong with staying married for the intact family. I knew she would say that. Staying married until the kids are grown and blah blah blah...
> 
> She also said that your wife is bored with marriage and wants excitement. Not necessarily with romance, but having time to hang out with friends or something... She said you wife just doesn't seem to know what that is yet. You wife has to have the freedom to find out who she is....She said y'all should have an open marriage... My wife is an odd creature.
> 
> So I told her that I was going to ask a woman out on a date....She honestly acted like she was a buddy I was telling it to...
> 
> *Then we discussed D... Although we see each other as "friends" , if we D, our "friendship" is over. My wife and I are not friends like I have always thought we were. We just tolerate each other. You and your wife are not friends either.*
> You and I have a big decision to make my friend. You and I will divorce our wife, it's just a matter of when.
> 
> We are planning a amicable divorce. No anger, no fighting.... It's all calm conversations. I want this to stay calm until that time comes. We need our exit plan. It will happen. We just have to take care of finances.
> 
> It will happen for you as well.
> 
> Stay calm, find things to do that make you happy, think about what you are willing to give your wife just to be free of her... Think of your freedom that will come afterwards. See the light at the end of the tunnel..
> 
> As Dory said on finding Memo..." Just keep swimming"
> 
> Stay calm
> 
> There is no rush.
> 
> Really think about the game plan and don't let it turn into a fight. Keep on smiling.


Trickster:

I'm little unclear on your last post above (see bolded especially)
did your wife 'threaten' to end her friendship with you if you divorced her? or did she tell you, apprise you for the very first time that she has never considered you her friend? hadn't you previously considered her your friend?

sounds like your talk with her was an unsettling one.


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## Trickster

nuclearnightmare said:


> Trickster:
> 
> I'm little unclear on your last post above (see bolded especially)
> did your wife 'threaten' to end her friendship with you if you divorced her? or did she tell you, apprise you for the very first time that she has never considered you her friend? hadn't you previously considered her your friend?
> 
> sounds like your talk with her was an unsettling one.


I hope doublep can avoid what I have been going through.. 


It was about a year ago I told Mrs.T I was going to move out. Somehow, I am still here.she convinced me to stay, made promises, played a big guilt trip on me, reminded me of all the "dad" things I do that I may miss out on.

The conversation we had last night was about doubleps thread as well.

If I move out now, I would no longer be doing all the things that I do for her...She would have no use for me anymore...We certainly wouldn't "hang out". Why? She definitely wouldn't want for me to meet them at the park!

My wife started initiating sex a year ago and acted loving... It seemed like it was because she realized she really cared about be. She said she just has a hard time showing it...

I wanted to believe that.

My wife love the things I do... She doesn't love me. I am OK with that. I had over a year to really think about this. Really much longer than that. Deep in my gut I knew she didn't love me...

I am sad for doublep..... I can understand the hurt he is feeling. We have 22 years ...

I want to avoid a messy D. I don't want our daughter to go through that... We are discussing D calmly at this point.

doublep-

Stay strong, calm, don't be angry, don't make threats, don't place blame, breathe, go for a walk first...have a plan first...


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## LostViking

doublep said:


> Well, tonight I have decided to tell her I am leaving. I have been reading a lot and most agree that it is harder for the kids to stay in a loveless marriage, besides she is unwilling to get personal help to see if it is PTSD, depression, etc.... She seems pretty convinced she just doesn't love me anymore.
> 
> So, I will move on. If the day comes she wants back in... I wont be there.


I'm very sorry to here this. But I think you are making a wise choice given the circumstances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

Hey Trickster can you give DoubleP back his thread please?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

doublep said:


> Well, tonight I have decided to tell her I am leaving. I have been reading a lot and most agree that it is harder for the kids to stay in a loveless marriage, besides she is unwilling to get personal help to see if it is PTSD, depression, etc.... She seems pretty convinced she just doesn't love me anymore.
> 
> So, I will move on. If the day comes she wants back in... I wont be there.


Wow. Well you have to do what is best for yourself. Just be as level and under control as you can be. Good luck. I hope it turns out alright for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trickster

Sorry for the jack

Just didn't want him to cave in to Mrs. double's demands.

She may respond the same way as my wife.


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## Chaparral

I think your wife has zoned out on ptsd and alchohol. It may be to late but you might try printing off the divorce papers for your state. You may have to go to the county courthouse to get the divorce packet.

Sit her down and start filling the paperwork out with her. If that doesn't shake her out of her stoupor, keep filling out the forms and file.


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## Chaparral

By the way, inform her she will be forced to endure a psychological examination in order to acertain her fitness for joint custody.


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## Wazza

Chaparral said:


> By the way, inform her she will be forced to endure a psychological examination in order to acertain her fitness for joint custody.


Why? This potentially just feeds animosity. What good does it do? If they have to part, but remain in contact as co-parents, why not keep it civil if they can?

If you think her fitness for custody is seriously in question, by all means fight, but not with loaded words ("endure" is clearly a punitive phrase). With actions. Otherwise, don't start fights that are just going to escalate, particularly when you are emotionally hurt and it takes an effort to think clearly in the first place.


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## Catherine602

You are venting but please consider this, if you have not already done so. You have a wife who is mentally unstable, drinking and says she does not love you. You also have children that feel even worse than you or your wife. Still, you need to be a strong man and do what is right. 

It seems to be reckless to bail without a plan in place. Your wife said she will continue to support you in the business. That means she will continue to work full-time to support your business venture. She also needs to make arrangement for childcare while she works and she has to take care of them without a father present. Finally, she needs to get help for her problems. 

Can she handle all of these things on her own with out your help in planning? This is something you need to consider because it effects you. You still depend on her salary and her help with the business, right You said that you are upset because she does this now when you need her the most. I am assuming it's the money and the business help you are talking about. 

Can you make sure she can manage to continue to work full-time to continue to contribute to finances and the business? Finally, out of empathy and generosity, encourage her to get help.


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## Catherine602

Chaparral said:


> By the way, inform her she will be forced to endure a psychological examination in order to acertain her fitness for joint custody.


Why would you suggest that he be so mean to her? Do you think he has contributed anything to the demise of the marriage? If he revenges himself on her this way, how healthy will his next relationship be? 

What a mess will be created. He would probably lose the business and the home and compromise his relationship with his kids. 

The most important thing is that he depends on her financially and emotionally or didn't you see that? It will take some time and thought to figure out the finances, division of the business and property and custody. More importantly, he has to extricate himself emotionally.


----------



## doublep

Well, she didn't take that too well but she accepted it. Shows me she does really want to move on. She can not afford it here without me, she makes less than a 1/3 of what I do. 

She cried but she cried for herself. We talked calmly, I was straight forward and quiet. She must REALLY not love me as she is willing to let me leave. She looks miserable, crying, walking in limbo but I did not do this. She is the one that wanted it to end and then stay for my money only.

I have to worry about my kids here with no money. I already got approved for a 2 bedroom apartment in a tower building close by. I told her these are the consequences of her choices. I will always be here for the kids, no matter what.

So sad... So darn sad.


----------



## Chaparral

Catherine602 said:


> Why would you suggest that he be so mean to her? Do you think he has contributed anything to the demise of the marriage? If he revenges himself on her this way, how healthy will his next relationship be?
> 
> What a mess will be created. He would probably lose the business and the home and compromise his relationship with his kids.
> 
> The most important thing is that he depends on her financially and emotionally or didn't you see that? It will take some time and thought to figure out the finances, division of the business and property and custody. More importantly, he has to extricate himself emotionally.


My point was to point out to her she can't just keep going as if her family isn't falling apart. She's messed up and won't get help. Its beyond me how my suggestions would be so bizzarely or intentionally misinterpreted.


----------



## Catherine602

Where she go to live with the children if she can't afford to live in the home?


----------



## Catherine602

Chap your post sounded mean and punitive. He has a right to leave a bad situation. It takes control not to lash out in anger. In the end, it is better for him to act with maturity and control. Why create more drama. 

Will it accomplish his goal of detaching or keep him enmeshed in a cycle of anger and recrimination? That is all I was pointing out. It will take time for him to process this and get through the phases of grieving for the relationship. Let's help him move forward not encourage him to do things that you know will make him get stuck.


----------



## Machiavelli

doublep said:


> I have to worry about my kids here with no money. I already got approved for a 2 bedroom apartment in a tower building close by. I told her these are the consequences of her choices. I will always be here for the kids, no matter what.


Then take the kids with you. Why leave them behind?


----------



## Openminded

I'm sorry, doublep. I hope that things will be much better going forward.


----------



## Chaparral

Catherine602 said:


> Chap your post sounded mean and punitive. He has a right to leave a bad situation. It takes control not to lash out in anger. In the end, it is better for him to act with maturity and control. Why create more drama.
> 
> Will it accomplish his goal of detaching or keep him enmeshed in a cycle of anger and recrimination? That is all I was pointing out. It will take time for him to process this and get through the phases of grieving for the relationship. Let's help him move forward not encourage him to do things that you know will stuck.


Idk, maybe it would be nice to get his wife whatever treament is needed, save his family and raise his kids in a healthy home enviornment. Then again he could just leave and let his kids stay with a depressed alchoholic that seems to have lost her way.


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## Trickster

doublep-

Is your wife being PA on you moving out?

Maybe using reverse psychology. you made the decision to move out. She will let you run the numbers, see the logistics of it all, and realize that it has not been thought out for a long term/permanent solution. So you will decide on a path of least resistance. Then you end up staying and make the best of a bad situation... 

Oh krap... That's what I did... There I go projecting again...

You are way braver than me.


----------



## Chaparral

Hopefully, this will be her rock bottom moment and she will turn her life around, put her family first and save herself.

Thoughts and prayers for your family. Stay strong.


----------



## doublep

Chaparral said:


> Hopefully, this will be her rock bottom moment and she will turn her life around, put her family first and save herself.
> 
> Thoughts and prayers for your family. Stay strong.


Thank you....
I don't know what she is doing, I do know she can't afford the home without me. She will not make it which makes this all worse. 

I dont think I have any authority to take the children. I also don't want them to resent me. This is hard, I dont want to make wrong choices for these kids. She tried to play the victim last night, at least to me, she said: "I just know that I can never make you happy." - Such a cop out and fantasy... But... I stayed calm, did not lash out, seems I am getting good at that.

She also used the Adam Walsh analogy, do you all remember the little boy in the 80's that was kidnapped and found later murdered? I am sure most of you do, well Mrs. Walsh said later when they divorced 2 years later she just could never be the same after that... Which is understandable.

My wife said she thinks that is how she feels, she doesn't want to love anyone or anything but her kids after our traumatic event 2 years ago....

Do I buy it? Maybe but I can only go on my own feelings and the one person besides my kids I was all in for, forever was my wife.


----------



## Chaparral

Unfortunately, as bad asit may have been, things could always be much worse. Her solution is to get rid of the only persoon in the wotld that would sacrifice anything in the world for her and always has her back.

Was she shocked you decided to forego the platonic relatonship so quickly?


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, I'm still leaning to an affair. Especially, something work related. There have been several here that left no clue because there was no communication that didn't occur at work.

You should find out quickly though now that you are leaving.


----------



## barbados

Chaparral said:


> Btw, I'm still leaning to an affair. Especially, something work related. There have been several here that left no clue because there was no communication that didn't occur at work.
> 
> You should find out quickly though now that you are leaving.


:iagree:


----------



## doublep

Chaparral said:


> Unfortunately, as bad asit may have been, things could always be much worse. Her solution is to get rid of the only persoon in the wotld that would sacrifice anything in the world for her and always has her back.
> 
> Was she shocked you decided to forego the platonic relatonship so quickly?


Yes... Here face was a bit shocked and I was talking to her the Apartment place called and said I was approved for a 2 bedroom in their tower.

Yet, she isn't rethinking anything or showing it... She cried hard and said odd things but that was about it... It is crazy... She cant survive without me and she cant provide for those kids without me....


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

What can she do at this point to make it right?


----------



## Trickster

Are y'all renting or buying the home?


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> Are y'all renting or buying the home?


We own a home....
I told her as long as she had love for me, I would work with her, get her help, whatever it took... At first she said she did love me but was not intimate or affectionate. Then it came out that in her words:

" I do not love you as a husband".

That is when all bets are off. She is taking a beating from friends and family and that is not waht I wanted but for her to do this at this time is just down right cruel. Maybe it shows who she truly is?

Since she is willing to struggle and not make it at the expense of not loving me, it is obvious she really does not love me. As far as an affair, I still dont see it (doesnt mean it didnt happen) but she is always at work or home and her job does not allow her to be anywhere but on her route.

No texts, emails, chats online... The only thing she does as I said before is she is an online gamer (Guild wars 2) but she plays with my daughter from time to time.... Maybe an emotional affair? I don't know.


----------



## turnera

She met someone online with the game. Happens all the time. Suddenly, YOU don't look so hot any more. Suddenly, someone ELSE has better swagger than you. She doesn't even have to have established a relationship with this guy - just thinking about life with him is sometimes enough to get her to do this. 

Do you have a keylogger on her computer?


----------



## bandit.45

Let me tell you something about alcoholics. Alcoholics will blame everything around them for their problems except the alcohol. I did, until I got help. 

That traumatic event two years ago is not what made your wife shut down and climb into the bottle. It is a convenient excuse got her to blame shift and not take control of her addiction and stupid decision making. Your wife was a drunk waiting to happen, whether she had ever met and married you or not. She's running from her issues and using every excuse she can find not to face them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> She met someone online with the game. Happens all the time. Suddenly, YOU don't look so hot any more. Suddenly, someone ELSE has better swagger than you. She doesn't even have to have established a relationship with this guy - just thinking about life with him is sometimes enough to get her to do this.
> 
> Do you have a keylogger on her computer?


I don't.. 
That records all her writings right?


----------



## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> I don't..
> That records all her writings right?


Right!!! Here's a free one for a week. Very stealthy and will record keystrokes and audio. It will take screenshots also. 
Look it up. 

Relytec.com
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

doublep said:


> I don't..
> That records all her writings right?


Yes, every single keystroke. You can download it on her computer, include your own email address, and then you will get a regular email including every keystroke she makes. And it is 99.5% invisible.

Toby, they record audio now, too? Wow, mine was a dinosaur!


----------



## Trickster

bandit.45 said:


> Let me tell you something about alcoholics. Alcoholics will blame everything around them for their problems except the alcohol. I did, until I got help.
> 
> That traumatic event two years ago is not what made your wife shut down and climb into the bottle. It is a convenient excuse got her to blame shift and not take control of her addiction and stupid decision making. Your wife was a drunk waiting to happen, whether she had ever met and married you or not. She's running from her issues and using every excuse she can find not to face them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



"Never let a crises go to waste"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

If there is any good in this it's that she is honest. She has had many chances to lie to you yet she is honest. You have given her so many chances to try and work on the relationship but she said the same thing. 

How is it that you think that the financial hardship will fall to her only? Can you afford child support for 3 children, pay part of the mortgage and utilities and rent without some financial hardship yourself? You have to split up the assets and that will involve a financial hit for both of you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

OP, I have only very loosely followed this thread, and have deferred to the judgment of posters I respect very much. But as I read some of your latest posts, I am wondering if maybe you took charge of this relationship, and did not listen so much to her words, you could lead both of you past this?

I am not sure letting an alcoholic out on her own with 3 kids is the best idea. I think there are times when staying in a relationship, even if it appears at first to be more of a caretaking one, might be a better approach.

Anyway, jmo.


----------



## Machiavelli

doublep said:


> She also used the Adam Walsh analogy, do you all remember the little boy in the 80's that was kidnapped and found later murdered? I am sure most of you do, well Mrs. Walsh said later when they divorced 2 years later she just could never be the same after that... Which is understandable.
> 
> My wife said she thinks that is how she feels, she doesn't want to love anyone or anything but her kids after our traumatic event 2 years ago....
> 
> Do I buy it? Maybe but I can only go on my own feelings and the one person besides my kids I was all in for, forever was my wife.


Maybe it's true, but if she moves another guy into your rack in the next couple of months you'll know it's a lie, or a half-truth at best. However, when a male fails to protect his women or their kids from an outside assault, the switch often gets flipped, even unfairly. It's psycho-biological. You see it happen. Conversely, when you do successfully defend them, they practically rape you before the gunsmoke clears. Ever heard of the concept of "You and Him Fight?" It's a fitness test.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> If there is any good in this it's that she is honest. She has had many chances to lie to you yet she is honest. You have given her so many chances to try and work on the relationship but she said the same thing.
> 
> How is it that you think that the financial hardship will fall to her only? Can you afford child support for 3 children, pay part of the mortgage and utilities and rent without some financial hardship yourself? You have to split up the assets and that will involve a financial hit for both of you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well... I have decided a few things and maybe I am stupid but I cant get passed these things: I am staying, here is why...

1: She can not live with those kids without me, period. There is no other guy moving in or anything, if there is an affair its emotional on her game which I will see.

2: I am an honorable man, maybe to a fault. I said for better for worse. I have heard stories here locally and online that this has happened to others and months even years later the one person wakes up. 

3: I do believe she is sick and not making right choices. What kind of husband would I be if I walked out on a sick wife, even though she is using words that are killing me. I am going to continue to get her help.

4: I will put my kids 1st... At least until they are old enough for this situation. My son needs me home. I am wont abandon them.

Once i use the keylogger, if there is an affair... I leave and take the kids with me. That is a game breaker.


----------



## turnera

Sounds like a good plan. But you'll need a lawyer to get the kids and that's still a big if.


----------



## bandit.45

doublep said:


> Well... I have decided a few things and maybe I am stupid but I cant get passed these things: I am staying, here is why...
> 
> 1: She can not live with those kids without me, period. There is no other guy moving in or anything, if there is an affair its emotional on her game which I will see.
> 
> 2: I am an honorable man, maybe to a fault. I said for better for worse. I have heard stories here locally and online that this has happened to others and months even years later the one person wakes up.
> 
> 3: I do believe she is sick and not making right choices. What kind of husband would I be if I walked out on a sick wife, even though she is using words that are killing me. I am going to continue to get her help.
> 
> 4: I will put my kids 1st... At least until they are old enough for this situation. My son needs me home. I am wont abandon them.
> 
> Once i use the keylogger, if there is an affair... I leave and take the kids with me. That is a game breaker.


As rough as it will be having an in-house separation, I respect you for wanting to do this. 

Have you checked out an AlAnon group in your area? You never answered that question. Seriously, such a group would really help you understand your wife and her alcoholism. All it costs is your time.


----------



## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> As rough as it will be having an in-house separation, I respect you for wanting to do this.
> 
> Have you checked out an AlAnon group in your area? You never answered that question. Seriously, such a group would really help you understand your wife and her alcoholism. All it costs is your time.


I think it is a big combo of all these things...
I think she has PTSD from the raid on our home, depression and alcoholism.... She is a functioning alcoholic but her decision making is way off.....

I work for a big Company and we have EAP which is deep mental therapy for free....


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> Yes, every single keystroke. You can download it on her computer, include your own email address, and then you will get a regular email including every keystroke she makes. And it is 99.5% invisible.
> 
> Toby, they record audio now, too? Wow, mine was a dinosaur!


Will it record her typing when she is typing in her game?


----------



## turnera

Every keystroke.


----------



## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> Will it record her typing when she is typing in her game?


Every keystroke!!! As long as she's using the keyboard. And if it's on the screen, the keylogger will take a screen shot. You should get everything. Passwords, sites visited, usernames...,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tobyboy

One more thing....use an email that she can't see. And delete all history after installment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nuclearnightmare

doublep - 

sounds like your decision to stay means you are prepared to forgo normal marital love (i.e. sex, intimacy, emotional support) for an indefinite period of time. do I have that right? or do you intend to see other women or connect with them online while you're living at home?


----------



## doublep

nuclearnightmare said:


> doublep -
> 
> sounds like your decision to stay means you are prepared to forgo normal marital love (i.e. sex, intimacy, emotional support) for an indefinite period of time. do I have that right? or do you intend to see other women or connect with them online while you're living at home?


If my wife is sick and is not having an affair... I will do that. I will not dishonor her. It will be hard, extremely hard as I am a very sexual and intimate person.

But I have to take some time with this before I over react.


----------



## Wazza

I stayed for the kids after my wife's affair. It worked out well in the end, but there were some very lean years and there is still some residual damage.

So I can respect the position you are currently taking, but I just urge you to take care of yourself. Do what is right, but don't totally neglect your needs in all this.


----------



## anchorwatch

doublep said:


> Well... I have decided a few things and maybe I am stupid but I cant get passed these things: I am staying, here is why...
> 
> 1: She can not live with those kids without me, period. There is no other guy moving in or anything, if there is an affair its emotional on her game which I will see.
> 
> 2: I am an honorable man, maybe to a fault. I said for better for worse. I have heard stories here locally and online that this has happened to others and months even years later the one person wakes up.
> 
> 3: I do believe she is sick and not making right choices. What kind of husband would I be if I walked out on a sick wife, even though she is using words that are killing me. I am going to continue to get her help.
> 
> 4: I will put my kids 1st... At least until they are old enough for this situation. My son needs me home. I am wont abandon them.
> 
> Once i use the keylogger, if there is an affair... I leave and take the kids with me. That is a game breaker.


Now you're not just an angry man, you've chosen to be the leader of this family...


----------



## Mostlycontent

Machiavelli said:


> Maybe it's true, but if she moves another guy into your rack in the next couple of months you'll know it's a lie, or a half-truth at best. However, when a male fails to protect his women or their kids from an outside assault, the switch often gets flipped, even unfairly. It's psycho-biological. You see it happen. Conversely, when you do successfully defend them, they practically rape you before the gunsmoke clears. Ever heard of the concept of "You and Him Fight?" It's a fitness test.



Mach,

This is so true. My W has known about my propensity for altercations over the years but she had never seen me in action. I guess I was just never afraid to go there like a lot of guys and sometimes it was to my detriment. 

Anyway, it's been a number of years now since anything has happened but my W had an issue when she was walking our dog on the beach 3 or 4 years ago. A guy got very rude and ugly with her so she calls me and I run down there, almost a mile to catch this fool, and confront him in the parking lot.

Obviously, I wasn't very nice and I was extra mad because I had to go so far to track him down. Anyway, the guy caved and I made him apologize to my W for the things he had said. 

After that, my W couldn't have been more amorous. You know, the old knight in shining armor image. I think she now knows that I've got her back no matter what. I try to avoid verbal and physical altercations now as I just don't like the emotional upset of it all but my W knows I will if necessary and that buys me a ton of Street Cred.


----------



## TRy

doublep said:


> As far as an affair, I still dont see it (doesnt mean it didnt happen) but she is always at work or home and her job does not allow her to be anywhere but on her route.
> 
> No texts, emails, chats online... The only thing she does as I said before is she is an online gamer (Guild wars 2) but she plays with my daughter from time to time.... Maybe an emotional affair?


 You saying that you do not see her having an affair because you do not see her her having the opportunity, followed by you saying that as a gamer she could be having an emotional affair (EA), reminds me of a quote from Mayor Barry, that as Mayor of Washington, DC said "If you take out the killings, Washington actually has a very very low crime rate." You are in effect saying, "if you take out" the opportunity that as a gamer she could easily be having an EA, the odds that she would have the opportunity to be having an affair are "very very low". 

Having been an on-line gamer myself at one time, an online EA is a very real possibility here. I know of one EA couple (both were married to other people) that were so into their EA, that they actually had a virtual wedding with the entire guild invited. When the real world husband decided to learn the game and joined her guild as a rookie player, he was not too happy to learn that in game the raid leader and his wife were married; both he and his real world wife soon dropped from the game and I never found out what happened. As for your wife playing with your daughter from time to time, that is not a check as your wife and the other man would know not to flirt when she was on.


----------



## doublep

Wazza said:


> I stayed for the kids after my wife's affair. It worked out well in the end, but there were some very lean years and there is still some residual damage.
> 
> So I can respect the position you are currently taking, but I just urge you to take care of yourself. Do what is right, but don't totally neglect your needs in all this.


What did you do for intimacy, if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## Wazza

doublep said:


> What did you do for intimacy, if you don't mind me asking?


I don't mind you asking, but I can't offer much joy. We were sexually active, but it was infrequent, and it sucks thinking your wife doesn't want to be there.


----------



## doublep

Wazza said:


> I don't mind you asking, but I can't offer much joy. We were sexually active, but it was infrequent, and it sucks thinking your wife doesn't want to be there.


She has just quit on everything.... Drapes go un-hung, no garden, everything is a chore for her, she doesn't talk much, only wants to come home from work and either watch TV or play her game. 

I do believe she is sick..... Depression and PTSD

When I asked her "Is you love loss permanent?"
Here response was "It feels like it now" 

Then I said "Well, in 6 months you wont want me either then"
She said "I can answer that. I don't know".

As far as sex... Yeah... I am lonely.


----------



## Wazza

doublep said:


> She has just quit on everything.... Drapes go un-hung, no garden, everything is a chore for her, she doesn't talk much, only wants to come home from work and either watch TV or play her game.
> 
> I do believe she is sick..... Depression and PTSD
> 
> When I asked her "Is you love loss permanent?"
> Here response was "It feels like it now"
> 
> Then I said "Well, in 6 months you wont want me either then"
> She said "I can answer that. I don't know".
> 
> As far as sex... Yeah... I am lonely.


At the low point, we could not have had that conversation. We had a lot of hall sex. You know, where you stand at opposite ends of the hall and shout "F*** you!!!! "

The longer you are together, the more common ground you will have. I would suggest looking for any positives you can. Restaurants you both like, TV shows, etc. Grow the friendship. Hard if she is depressed.

The other thing is....even if she is not in an affair now, being depressed probably makes her more vulnerable. Be careful.


----------



## turnera

Drive her to the doctor and tell the doctor that you need to have her checked for depression. Explain that she's shut down.


----------



## Catherine602

Did you get the VAR. Be very careful, don't let her detect that you are investigating. A raid, she probably does not feel safe. Did she start drinking after the raid? I have a feeling that she is finally breaking because of the sustained amount of stress. When she says she does not love you as a husband she might mean that she does not trust that you can protect the family. 

She may subcontiously blame you for the trouble. This is contrary to what she said at first. She may have been trying for the 2 yrs not to blame you. 

There is hope in this. With therapy she may accept that it was not your fault. Only you know if you unwittingly did something to get into trouble or if she thinks you did. Or if some decisive action would not have averted the problem; she might think that you could have. Think about it and observe don't reveal what you think now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Catherine602

I'm concerned she might be thinking of taking her life. Is that possible do you think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

It's good that you have decided to stay, at least for now.


Your wife will come around. My wife is beginning g to do many of the things that I've wanted her to do.I know she is not in love, but we are not too toxic... We can build on that.

You will move past the hurt. Its been about a year and although I have my moments, overall I am in a better place. Having a few close friends will help you...

How much does your drink?

How often?

You said she doesn't get falling down drunk and your 2 children don't see her drinking.

Does she drink after they go to bed?

Did the depression seem to start when all that hell started or were there signs before?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

doublep said:


> She has just quit on everything.... Drapes go un-hung, no garden, everything is a chore for her, she doesn't talk much, only wants to come home from work and either watch TV or play her game.
> 
> I do believe she is sick..... Depression and PTSD
> 
> When I asked her "Is you love loss permanent?"
> Here response was "It feels like it now"
> 
> Then I said "Well, in 6 months you wont want me either then"
> She said "I can answer that. I don't know".
> 
> As far as sex... Yeah... I am lonely.


This is depression.

You need to know what is the cause, and she needs counseling.


----------



## Chaparral

Having to go back to work is probably the biggest factor here. After having the freedom of you being able to make enough for her to be sahm, rentering the workforce must be crushing.


----------



## turnera

See_Listen_Love said:


> This is depression.
> 
> You need to know what is the cause, and she needs counseling.


and most likely, medicine.


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> and most likely, medicine.


Yes... We talked more last night and she really has a very deep depression, very deep. SOme of her words and these are classic depression responses when I look them up:


" I am fine"
" I like being where I am, I dont have to do anything"
" Everything seems like work and a chore"

As far as her game, I did the keylogger thing and I don't feel good about it, I feel dirty for doing it. I do. But I had to know and she is just lost in the game for reasons of "escape" as she says. Nothing on there out of the norm of gameplay talk really, she just really enjoys her "game" family as it gets her away from real life.

I think the game is hurting our marriage because she uses it as a self medication. She can be "fake" and "not real" there. SHe finally agreed to go back to counseling again and I know she does not want too. 

I am now more convinced than ever that if I was to leave her and she got better, it would be her biggest regret losing me because I know inside she loves me, this shadow is blocking her... BUT (and a big but) - I do have to concern myself with myself..... I can only do so much, she is going to really have to make an effort....


----------



## NobodySpecial

doublep said:


> Yes... We talked more last night and she really has a very deep depression, very deep. SOme of her words and these are classic depression responses when I look them up:
> 
> 
> " I am fine"
> " I like being where I am, I dont have to do anything"
> " Everything seems like work and a chore"
> 
> As far as her game, I did the keylogger thing and I don't feel good about it, I feel dirty for doing it. I do. But I had to know and she is just lost in the game for reasons of "escape" as she says. Nothing on there out of the norm of gameplay talk really, she just really enjoys her "game" family as it gets her away from real life.
> 
> I think the game is hurting our marriage because she uses it as a self medication. She can be "fake" and "not real" there. SHe finally agreed to go back to counseling again and I know she does not want too.
> 
> I am now more convinced than ever that if I was to leave her and she got better, it would be her biggest regret losing me because I know inside she loves me, this shadow is blocking her... BUT (and a big but) - I do have to concern myself with myself..... I can only do so much, she is going to really have to make an effort....


Listen to Tunera. People in deep depression can not act in their own best interest. TAKE her to the doctor.


----------



## turnera

Sounds like she needs more than just therapy (assuming she even goes). Make an appointment for her doctor.


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> Sounds like she needs more than just therapy (assuming she even goes). Make an appointment for her doctor.


That is the problem, it is so deep that she think's she is happy within it which is classic for severe depression......

This is my wife 100% right here:

5 Coping Strategies for loving someone experiencing depression | Thrive With Bipolar Disorder


----------



## turnera

Look, at SOME point, you're going to have to take a stand. IMO, it should be "I can't live like this any more. I need you to go to the doctor with me. If you won't go, at least for me, I'll take that as your agreement you don't want to stay in this relationship, and I'll make plans to leave."


----------



## CanadianGuy

Depression. I know a thing or two about it. 

Sucks the joy out of everything. Life has no future, no hope, no reason, no sparkle, there is nothing to look forward too. It can be physically painful. Things ache, you may be clumsy, have interrupted sleeping patterns, weight gain or loss. Simple tasks or instructions become difficult because of confusion and lack of focus. Low motivation and energy. 

It's not sadness or a funk or a bad attitude, it's much much deeper. 

Love does not change, attitudes do. 

You are very right to explore this avenue. You may be saving her life.


----------



## Chaparral

Before you start considering ultimatums and threats, get some expert opinions. If everyone here and you are confident she is severely depressed, quallified people should be able to come up with a good plan of action. I expect for those folks, this is common behavior and they will be a big help. Fingers crossed.

For example, she thinks she is ok.

People suffering from schizophrenia have to be helped and watched. Their condition includes sometimes thinking that the medicine they take is the problem and they stop taking it only to revert to psychoisis.

It sounds like people in severe depression form denial as a defense mechanisim. No doubt a professional could help you.


----------



## Trickster

doublep-

Is she being a good mother still?

Is she present for them?

Does she interact with them? Helping with homework?

Is she helping with dinner, cleaning?


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> Is she being a good mother still?
> 
> Is she present for them?
> 
> Does she interact with them? Helping with homework?
> 
> Is she helping with dinner, cleaning?


Yes.... But it is labored.


----------



## doublep

I showed her that link I posted earlier and she agreed....
It was her....

Maybe there is hope but I now have issues. To be honest and squishy?... I am really, really hurt. That link says not to take it personal and I cant help but too.... Those words she spoke to me will echo an eternity within me.....


----------



## Chaparral

doublep said:


> I showed her that link I posted earlier and she agreed....
> It was her....
> 
> Maybe there is hope but I now have issues. To be honest and squishy?... I am really, really hurt. That link says not to take it personal and I cant help but too.... Those words she spoke to me will echo an eternity within me.....


If you get her some help and things turn back to normal, you will be fine. This is no time to go soft. You have a job as father, husband and leader of a family, to do. You can sort out the minor stuff later. This ain't going to be easy particularly when the cause of her depression, if its not physical, comes to light.

I have been wondering this whole thread if she has been abused before you married her. Is that a possibility?


----------



## dubsey

doublep said:


> I showed her that link I posted earlier and she agreed....
> It was her....
> 
> Maybe there is hope but I now have issues. To be honest and squishy?... I am really, really hurt. That link says not to take it personal and I cant help but too.... Those words she spoke to me will echo an eternity within me.....


That may be true, however, if this works out, it'll be a reminder to yourself, and to her, what a wonderful husband & father you are/were, and that you didn't bail out when she needed you most - and didn't even know it.


----------



## doublep

Chaparral said:


> If you get her some help and things turn back to normal, you will be fine. This is no time to go soft. You have a job as father, husband and leader of a family, to do. You can sort out the minor stuff later. This ain't going to be easy particularly when the cause of her depression, if its not physical, comes to light.
> 
> I have been wondering this whole thread if she has been abused before you married her. Is that a possibility?


Yes shes has...
She had a terrible upbringing. Her dad died at 42 from Alcoholism and her mom then got into a marriage with an abusive step dad, not physically, but verbally.... He would drink every night and come home yelling and banging.

The mom was awful. Never around... 

She literally left her home to live with me at 16....


----------



## nuclearnightmare

doublep said:


> Yes... We talked more last night and she really has a very deep depression, very deep. SOme of her words and these are classic depression responses when I look them up:
> 
> 
> " I am fine"
> " I like being where I am, I dont have to do anything"
> " Everything seems like work and a chore"
> 
> As far as her game, I did the keylogger thing and I don't feel good about it, I feel dirty for doing it. I do. But I had to know and she is just lost in the game for reasons of "escape" as she says. Nothing on there out of the norm of gameplay talk really, she just really enjoys her "game" family as it gets her away from real life.
> 
> I think the game is hurting our marriage because she uses it as a self medication. She can be "fake" and "not real" there. SHe finally agreed to go back to counseling again and I know she does not want too.
> 
> I am now more convinced than ever that if I was to leave her and she got better, it would be her biggest regret losing me because I know inside she loves me, this shadow is blocking her... BUT (and a big but) - I do have to concern myself with myself..... I can only do so much, she is going to really have to make an effort....


absolutely. there are those that are addicted to internet gaming....well known addiction at this point, along with internet porn. 

my concern with the way you are talking now is that you are signing yourself up for martrydom. you know of course that it is possible to both love and support someone WITHOUT being married to them. You simply end up with someone else as your wife, but she remains someone that you care what happens to since she is your kid's mom etc. in other words if you moved out to go to apartment down the street, this very afternoon, it escapes me how anyone could construe that as abandonment. It simply does not equate to that unless you make it so. you wouldn't be abandoning either her or your kids simply because your bed is a couple miles down the road. your kids could stay with you some of the time e.g.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

doublep said:


> Yes shes has...
> She had a terrible upbringing. Her dad died at 42 from Alcoholism and her mom then got into a marriage with an abusive step dad, not physically, but verbally.... He would drink every night and come home yelling and banging.
> 
> The mom was awful. Never around...
> 
> She literally left her home to live with me at 16....


that's where the seeds of her depression were sown. I doubt the raid has anything to do with it...that's just where she's comfortable placing the cause..


----------



## Catherine602

I know why she supported you so steadfastly during the bad yrs. and hid her depression. You saved her life, she owes you in a sense. Did you realize that? If you were not there to resue her at 16, she probably would have had a string of bad relationships and be a raging alchoholic. And you still love her so deeply! She is so lucky to have a man like you. She knows it but does not feel worthy of you. A child who grows up in an abusive household where they are ignored feels that it's how they deserve to be treated. 

She is not rejecting you, she is trying to hide from you. She thinks you will not love her if she is not the supportive woman she seemed to be. The woman you described in your first post. It's a part of her but not the whole deal. Perhaps after 26 yrs and stress, she can't hide from you. Try hard to be there for her. Accept that right now, she can't be there for you. Don't say that you can't believe she would do this now and that she is a bad wife. Let her know that even when she can't support you that you love her anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

Catherine, what a beautiful post! Such compassion!


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> I know why she supported you so steadfastly during the bad yrs. and hid her depression. You saved her life, she owes you in a sense. Did you realize that? If you were not there to resue her at 16, she probably would have had a string of bad relationships and be a raging alchoholic. And you still love her so deeply! She is so lucky to have a man like you. She knows it but does not feel worthy of you. A child who grows up in an abusive household where they are ignored feels that it's how they deserve to be treated.
> 
> She is not rejecting you, she is trying to hide from you. She thinks you will not love her if she is not the supportive woman she seemed to be. The woman you described in your first post. It's a part of her but not the whole deal. Perhaps after 26 yrs and stress, she can't hide from you. Try hard to be there for her. Accept that right now, she can't be there for you. Don't say that you can't believe she would do this now and that she is a bad wife. Let her know that even when she can't support you that you love her anyway.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow... Thank you, I never thought of that, I know I just love her and always will.


----------



## jld

doublep said:


> I showed her that link I posted earlier and she agreed....
> It was her....
> 
> Maybe there is hope but I now have issues. To be honest and squishy?... I am really, really hurt. That link says not to take it personal and I cant help but too.... Those words she spoke to me will echo an eternity within me.....


You are going to grow, too, doublep. It is inevitable. You are going to be challenged to be a better man, a more secure man. You and she are in this together.

Not taking things personally is a helpful technique to use in all of life. People are going through so many things of their own, we have no idea. If we can just reflect it back to them, and let it rest with them, it frees up so much of our emotional energy.

Just imagine that it is the sickness speaking, not the woman you love. I am sure that someday she will apologize, sincerely, for the hurtful things she has said.

And remember that everyone appreciates a man who does not take things personally. He is respected and admired, because not every man is able, or is willing, to do this.


----------



## Catherine602

Your story reminds me of my own. My husband and I became friends when we were 16. My parents neglected my sister and brothers and I. My future husband sought me out for friendship that grew into love. 

He is a good man like you and he loves me. I know that too. It seems that he loved me all my life and he saved my life like you saved your wife. I wanted to give you the background to give context to what I am saying. 

There is an outside me and an inside me. The outside is the person I matured into. But the inside me is always lurking. It's controlled but not gone. I don't really feel that anyone should love me. After all, I was so bad that my own parents didn't love me. Why would anyone else. 

Your wife may feel the same way although it is usually buried inside unless something major shakes the broken inside person out.


----------



## bandit.45

We love you Catherine. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Trickster

You're breakin my heart Catherine.


----------



## Catherine602

bandit.45 said:


> We love you Catherine.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Trickster said:


> You're breakin my heart Catherine.


You're making me cry. THANK YOU.


----------



## Trickster

doublep

Many people here have rotten childhoods. Somehow, we find another to love and marry us. You have 26 years with your wife. For some reason, she is pushing you away. You have a choice on how you will respond. You have to keep sane for the 4 of you. 

Don't think I can add much to what Catherine said.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Doublep

I just saw your post that you still love your wife. I don't doubt that. A few posts before that I see you reiterate how hurt you are at the things she has said to you recently. Your resentment at her not supporting you at your lowest moment etc. IMO your hurt and resentment is every bit as legitimate as your love. Your wife is troubled but she is not psychotic. She still needs to be held responsible for the things she does and the things she says. 

The way your feelings and emotions seem to be oscillating day to day - I still think you getting a bit of distance from your wife right now might be important in terms of keeping sane yourself. Did you say whether you had any adult support for you? Friends, relatives, clergy??


----------



## Trickster

nuclearnightmare said:


> Doublep
> 
> I just saw your post that you still love your wife. I don't doubt that. A few posts before that I see you reiterate how hurt you are at the things she has said to you recently. Your resentment at her not supporting you at your lowest moment etc. IMO your hurt and resentment is every bit as legitimate as your love. Your wife is troubled but she is not psychotic. She still needs to be held responsible for the things she does and the things she says.
> 
> The way your feelings and emotions seem to be oscillating day to day - I still think you getting a bit of distance from your wife right now might be important in terms of keeping sane yourself. Did you say whether you had any adult support for you? Friends, relatives, clergy??



Anybody going through this would would be pulled in all directions. 
Doublep loves his wife and kids and they are recovering from a traumatic experience. 

Yes, every adult should be accountable for their own behavior. At some point in our life, we shouldn't use our rotton childhood to excuse our actions and we should be held accountable. Sometimes it is to much and we may not know how to help ourself. We can't see the forest.....

It's up to doublep to carry on the marriage and be the strong one. If he leaves and takes the children with him, nobody would fault him. Nobody on TAM that is. I do agree he should pull away a bit and help himself. 

Eventually, doublep will get past the hurt and know that his wife may not be in her right mind.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> Your story reminds me of my own. My husband and I became friends when we were 16. My parents neglected my sister and brothers and I. My future husband sought me out for friendship that grew into love.
> 
> He is a good man like you and he loves me. I know that too. It seems that he loved me all my life and he saved my life like you saved your wife. I wanted to give you the background to give context to what I am saying.
> 
> There is an outside me and an inside me. The outside is the person I matured into. But the inside me is always lurking. It's controlled but not gone. I don't really feel that anyone should love me. After all, I was so bad that my own parents didn't love me. Why would anyone else.
> 
> Your wife may feel the same way although it is usually beried inside unless something major shakes the broken inside person out.
> 
> For fleeting moments, I want to run away because I can't believe my husband could love me. When I am down, I feel like the little girl who could not get her own mother and father to love her.
> 
> That small part of me, can't love because she never felt loved, she does not know how. I am not going to say more because I would have to tell my husband and I don't want to worry him. But I feel like your wife sometimes.
> 
> I know it is hard or even impossible not to take what she says personally. But just know that the broken woman she is only a part of her. But she is still the loving supportive wife too. But the broken part grew because of circumstances.
> 
> If someone raided my house and accused my husband of wrong doing and we went through years of coming back, I would not be as strong as your wife. I would have shut down in the first few months.
> 
> I am certain you have had trying times in your childhood too. Some people can weather them better than others. Thank God for men like you.
> 
> Can I ask that no one quote this post? Afetr Double reads it, I'm going to delete it. Thanks.



Thank you so much, it is good to hear those words.... I am no perfect man by any means, I have my faults for sure. I am just afraid of losing her for good and making the wrong attempts at helping her.... 

The biggest thing they say to do is give her space but be close by.... I am. It is so hard, so damn hard. My other problem is I have no idea how to also take care of my own self. My work is suffering a bit, I literally have slept 3 hours in the last 3 nights and it dominates my thoughts.....

I dont know how to turn off at least for a little while. Oh yeah, one of my faults??? I am not a patient man.


----------



## turnera

Go to your GP and ask for a 3-month prescription for antidepressants.


----------



## Catherine602

You have a chance to show your wife a different side of yourself. Has she had the role of being the strong one who takes care of everyone. Does she give the air of not needing anyone to take care of her? 

It's not true but she may have thought that was what you wanted from her. In a way, she led you to believe that she was invulnerable, I guess, so its not surprising that you are shocked. 

Can she breakdown and not be there when you need her the most? That depends on what is expected of her. Is it too much to expect even of a strong person. 

In my opinion, your marriage can come out of this better and stronger than ever. She has to be honest and reveal herself and what she needs. She has to completely stop drinking for the sake of you and her kids. 

Her father died early and that destabilized the family. Could she be risking the same thing? She has to get IC to be a better person, Mom and most of all wife to a good guy. 

If you had a mutually supportive relationship, where each of you supported their own weight as well as supporting each other in equal measure, would she be more willing to stay married? 

If she were confident that you learned something valuable about the business trouble and are stronger and wiser now, would she be willing to stay? Is it relatively safe to depend on the security of the home and your lives. 

If she saw that she could depend on you even when she cannot meet your needs temporarily , would that change the way she thinks about you? 

If she could let you know when she is reaching her comping limits and you avoid getting angry or feel deprived, would that make a big difference in the quality of your relationship? Could you pick up the slack with equanimity? 

Don't let her slide, have a plan and hold her to it. Backing off and giving space is bad (to me).


----------



## Catherine602

I want to make suggestions on how you can take care of yourself but I'm on my way out will post latter. Double can you delete my quote in your post above. I am going to delete the original one. Thank you so much.


----------



## Catherine602

jld said:


> Catherine, what a beautiful post! Such compassion!


THANK YOU jid


----------



## Chaparral

I hesitate to point this out but the version you got from your wife about her abuse is probably a highly sanitized version, particularly as she doesn't want to be intimate now and says she would never look for another man.

Turnera were you advising him to get antidepressants for himself?


----------



## turnera

Yes, for himself. He's taking this all too hard on himself and I think he needs a mental break. I took some for a while after my mom died and it helped me think clearly and basically get off the pot and start doing what I needed to do.


----------



## Catherine602

Don't think he should go that far. Double I think you can self soothe with no meds. You may become blunted and sleepy-headed or lose your edge. 

Besides (this may sound like a bad reason for not taking a drug) it may make you appear weak to your wife. She is the one who needs the meds. it would seem ironic that you are the one taking them. She might think it is a confirmation that she is the only one that can be strong.

I'm not minimizing your pain but it seems better to me to try and get through without meds unless you really need them.


----------



## turnera

I never became blunted or sleepy-headed or lost my edge. Just sayin'.


----------



## bandit.45

doublep said:


> Thank you so much, it is good to hear those words.... I am no perfect man by any means, I have my faults for sure. I am just afraid of losing her for good and making the wrong attempts at helping her....
> 
> The biggest thing they say to do is give her space but be close by.... I am. It is so hard, so damn hard. My other problem is I have no idea how to also take care of my own self. My work is suffering a bit, I literally have slept 3 hours in the last 3 nights and it dominates my thoughts.....
> 
> I dont know how to turn off at least for a little while. Oh yeah, one of my faults??? I am not a patient man.


DoubleP try Benadryl. Go to the drugstore and get a bottle of the cheap pink pills. Take two an hour before you gou to bed. They don't make you sleep but what they do is the KEEP you asleep and they help you sleep more deeply. They work as good as Lunesta or Ambien.


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> Yes, for himself. He's taking this all too hard on himself and I think he needs a mental break. I took some for a while after my mom died and it helped me think clearly and basically get off the pot and start doing what I needed to do.



It is funny that you mention "thinking clearly" because I am not... I KNOW but can't help to over think things, get paranoid about everything she does, and it dominates my thoughts. Of course I don't let her see this side....

But I don't think a minute goes by (literally) where I am not trying to find a solution, an end, a fix, anything to get through this. Then I think the dreaded, maybe she really doesn't ever want to come back? 

My thoughts are not right, I am absolutely not thinking right. No sleep... I am don't eat anymore (lost 10 pounds in 12 days) and I am sometimes not sure if I am awake or asleep??


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> I never became blunted or sleepy-headed or lost my edge. Just sayin'.


Is there a drug to give me mind peace? Something that would let me take my mind of things and forget for awhile?


----------



## tdwal

doublep said:


> Is there a drug to give me mind peace? Something that would let me take my mind of things and forget for awhile?


Yes go to the doctor, there are anti-depressants that will help a lot and not make you out of it. Go to a psychiatrist though, they know how to administer these things much better than a general practitioner.


----------



## turnera

doublep said:


> Is there a drug to give me mind peace? Something that would let me take my mind of things and forget for awhile?


Yes, of course there is. Granted, you may need to try this or that until you find the right fit - mental drugs are VERY hard to pin point for each person. But they are there for a reason - they work.


----------



## turnera

tdwal said:


> Yes go to the doctor, there are anti-depressants that will help a lot and not make you out of it. Go to a psychiatrist though, they know how to administer these things much better than a general practitioner.


True. I was just trying to not scare you off.


----------



## doublep

Well.... I have some news....

I feel like an idiot.
My wife was indeed having an EA and as many told me, it was through her game. It was all fantasy. No one new each others real names, it was all talk. Flirting, in game hugging, etc....

I caught the chats in game.... I saw hidden on-line emails. Nothing truly disgusting or disturbing but still giving her heart to another. When I confronted her she broke down big time....

Now, she is chasing me, telling me she will spend the rest of her life making it up to me, she slept cuddled next to me, she is texting me constantly because she is working... Her words are hurting me.

" How could I do this to such a great man!"
"I Dont deserve you"
"How could you ever love me again when you needed me most?"

Constant crying, I see such pain... and as much as I want to lash out and kick her out... I can't. I still want to protect her. Mostly because it was fantasy and she is truly sick. She shed so much of her old life with me, I can't leave her sick.


I feel like a fool, so many of you were right.....


----------



## Openminded

I'm sorry. It's not uncommon, unfortunately. Now that she's been caught you can expect all sorts of promises. Be careful.


----------



## Trickster

doublep

Did you tell her you had the key logger?

Don't feel like an idiot...Do you know how long its been going on?


----------



## Stevenj

After years of trying unsuccessfully to improve things, a woman eventually surrenders and convinces herself that change isn't possible. She ends up believing there's absolutely nothing she can do because everything she's tried hasn't worked. That's when she begins to carefully map out the logistics of what she considers to be the inevitable, getting a divorce. This happens in 2/3rds of divorces. Go to MC.


----------



## anchorwatch

You're not a fool! 

You're human an so is she...

She needs help and she looked for it in the wrong place. 

Now find a competent IC and MC, and put this ship back on course.


----------



## Nucking Futs

doublep said:


> Well.... I have some news....
> 
> I feel like an idiot.
> My wife was indeed having an EA and as many told me, it was through her game. It was all fantasy. No one new each others real names, it was all talk. Flirting, in game hugging, etc....
> 
> I caught the chats in game.... I saw hidden on-line emails. Nothing truly disgusting or disturbing but still giving her heart to another. When I confronted her she broke down big time....
> 
> Now, she is chasing me, telling me she will spend the rest of her life making it up to me, she slept cuddled next to me, she is texting me constantly because she is working... Her words are hurting me.
> 
> " How could I do this to such a great man!"
> "I Dont deserve you"
> "How could you ever love me again when you needed me most?"
> 
> Constant crying, I see such pain... and as much as I want to lash out and kick her out... I can't. I still want to protect her. Mostly because it was fantasy and she is truly sick. She shed so much of her old life with me, I can't leave her sick.
> 
> 
> I feel like a fool, so many of you were right.....


She's cheating. No surprise. No surprise at all.

As for her being sick, she's not as sick as you thought. The idea that she was so depressed came about as a way to explain her actions in the face of your insistence that she couldn't be cheating. 

Bottom line, she's not sick, she's been lying to you. No sex is not because she's depressed, it's because she's saving herself for someone else.

Her constant crying and pain is for being caught. She didn't give a rats ass about your pain until you busted her, despite all your efforts. Now that she's been busted suddenly she'll do anything. 

You don't owe her jack ****.


----------



## Catherine602

Don't assume that you know the full extent of the EA. Even if you know, it is common for it to go underground or to start up again after a period of time. 

As sincere as she seems now, she may go back to not wanting to be married. Depends on how addicted she is to the fantasy to escape her life. Do you know who the OM is and if he is married. 

Keep up the surveillance don't reveal how you know what is going on. Did you get the VAR? It would help to know what she is saying when you are not around. It is a bigger indication of what she is really feeling and planning. 

How are you planning to handle this? You cannot do it without professional help. Do you have anyone to help you - good friend or family member?


----------



## turnera

Do not tell her about how you know. Keep the keylogger. Get all her passwords, or have her remove them. Have her write this POS a No Contact letter that you watch her send (on the spot, so she doesn't have time to warn him that a 'fake' goodbye letter is coming). Have her quit all games that YOU are not included in. Have her set up a MC.


----------



## doublep

Well, he is not a name or face but text. They were flirting in game. He is literally on the other side of the Country. It is cheating either way, she gave him what she wasn't giving me...

I personally wrote this guy an email.

Now I am caught between is she real or is she saying what I want for protection against me throwing her out and exposing her. Some of her words:

"I can not believe what I did to you"
"I am not right in the head, I need help"
"I would never have done things like this before"
"I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you"
"I was pushing you out because of shame"
"I do love you"
"That wasn't me it was a fantasy world"


----------



## Wazza

doublep said:


> Well, he is not a name or face but text. They were flirting in game. He is literally on the other side of the Country. It is cheating either way, she gave him what she wasn't giving me...
> 
> I personally wrote this guy an email.
> 
> Now I am caught between is she real or is she saying what I want for protection against me throwing her out and exposing her. Some of her words:
> 
> "I can not believe what I did to you"
> "I am not right in the head, I need help"
> "I would never have done things like this before"
> "I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you"
> "I was pushing you out because of shame"
> "I do love you"
> "That wasn't me it was a fantasy world"


Sorry. Now, remember in what I write that I reconciled, in case what I write seems overly negative.

She has lied to you and cheated on you. She has probably only admitted to what you already know. It may not be everything. You cannot trust her word. Right now you want to, but you will find you can't. It will eat at you.

So you have to preserve ways of monitoring her THAT SHE DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT and see if she is truthful with you or tells further lies.

How do you know they have never met. He lives on the other side of the country, but what stops him travelling?

What did you write to the other guy? I spoke to my wife's OM. It did no good. They discussed it afterwards and didn't stop anything.


----------



## Tobyboy

It's all bullsh!t and damage control. Her actions so far have been nothin but manipulative. 

What has she done to make things right?
Has she giving you full transparency? 
Did she send a no-contact email?
Had she looked into IC?
Has she quit drinking and gaming?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

doublep said:


> Well, he is not a name or face but text. They were flirting in game. He is literally on the other side of the Country. It is cheating either way, she gave him what she wasn't giving me...
> 
> I personally wrote this guy an email.
> 
> Now I am caught between is she real or is she saying what I want for protection against me throwing her out and exposing her. Some of her words:
> 
> "I can not believe what I did to you":rofl:
> "I am not right in the head, I need help"
> "I would never have done things like this before"
> "I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you":rofl:
> "I was pushing you out because of shame"
> "I do love you":rofl:
> "That wasn't me it was a fantasy world"


:rofl:

There isn't one thing here that passes the smell test. She was more than willing to let you take care of her as long as kept the f#ck away from her. Now though you know the truth she has no idea what has come over her.

I don't believe for a minute she doesn't know who he is.

Var the house, leave ad give her plenty of time to talk to people.

Unbelievably we have had many women here leave their kids and husband, go across the country to a man they have never met.

This situation is as bad as if he were a next door neighbor she had been banging for a few years.

How long has this been going on? If you have his email address, try search it on spokeo.com


----------



## Chaparral

Btw, the chances she is just going to dump him and fly right are slim,.slimmer and none. Be prepared for backsliding sooner than later.


----------



## Openminded

Yes, she's saying all the right things now but that's because you caught her. Do you honestly think she really did change her mind so completely the moment you confronted her? She's doing damage control. She's scared you'll leave her.


----------



## Emerald

I have no doubt your wife is suffering from PTSD from the in-home house (I know I would) raid co-mingled with depression (from the symptoms you have described). She appears to be self-medicating with alcohol & gaming...& yes fantasy EA's. She appears to be heading for a complete mental breakdown.

However, nobody here can dx; she needs to be seen by a doctor asap.

IMHO, leaving a sick wife of 26 years & the Mother of your children at this time is a very bad idea on many levels.

If your child was heading for a complete breakdown & told you they didn't love you anymore, would you abandon him/her?

I have read you say you don't know how to fix her. Well, you cannot so stop trying. What can you do is insist that she seek immediate professional help. If she refuses, then you will have no choice to take the necessary steps to protect your children from her.

You say she is a good Mother & I believe she is deep down. She will unable to continue being a good Mother if she refuses to help herself with her gaming/alcohol addictions & mental health issues.

If you have never been in the dark hole of depression, you will never understand it. I have & felt so hopeless & worthless that I also tried to push my husband away because I felt so guilty. Thankfully, he was a stoic rock that did not take it personally until I got professional help. That was his mantra; get help first, then we can address "our marital issues."

I understand that you are suffering too. However in triage, the "sicker" person gets help first.

Good luck & I will pray for your family.


----------



## doublep

Emerald said:


> I have no doubt your wife is suffering from PTSD from the in-home house (I know I would) raid co-mingled with depression (from the symptoms you have described). She appears to be self-medicating with alcohol & gaming...& yes fantasy EA's. She appears to be heading for a complete mental breakdown.
> 
> However, nobody here can dx; she needs to be seen by a doctor asap.
> 
> IMHO, leaving a sick wife of 26 years & the Mother of your children at this time is a very bad idea on many levels.
> 
> If your child was heading for a complete breakdown & told you they didn't love you anymore, would you abandon him/her?
> 
> I have read you say you don't know how to fix her. Well, you cannot so stop trying. What can you do is insist that she seek immediate professional help. If she refuses, then you will have no choice to take the necessary steps to protect your children from her.
> 
> You say she is a good Mother & I believe she is deep down. She will unable to continue being good Mother if she refuses to help herself with her gaming/alcohol addictions & mental health issues.
> 
> If you have never been in the dark hole of depression, you will never understand it. I have & felt so hopeless & worthless that I also tried to push my husband away because I felt so guilty. Thankfully, he was a stoic rock that did not take it personally until I got professional help. That was his mantra; get help first, then we can address "our marital issues."
> 
> I understand that you are suffering too. However in triage, the "sicker" person gets help first.
> 
> Good luck & I will pray for your family.


This is where I am headed. She is sick, I have to stay focused and remember all the other things she has stopped or done besides the online gaming fantasy affair:

* She stopped house work all together except things that have to be done.
* She stopped tinkering in the house which she loved.
* She stopped her garden and all out door activities which she loves.
* She only did an hour or so of gaming here and there and then slept. Sometimes she would come home from work at 6pm and be in bed by 7:30.
* The other day she called me after work asking why her car remote wont unlock the doors. She said even the key wont fit... literally 2 minutes later she said "omg, this is not my car".

So since she admitted this online affair?

She has deleted all her email accounts, stopped gaming, wants help and knows she is stuck in a deep depression, tells me she is not better but seeing what she has done, she does know inside she loves me but needs help to get released from this. She wont stop apologizing and at least she is coming to me....

She even said to me "If I were you, I wouldn't stay either for what I did to you and how can you believe me now?"

Well... I wont leave my sick wife and if I am the fool and it is all a game to buy time then I at least can know I tried and honored our marriage through better or worse.


----------



## turnera

There's nothing wrong with giving her another chance - as long as she CONTINUES to do the right things. The most common problem is that, when she sees you'll take her back, her zest for making up for what she's done wanes. As soon as that happens - and it will - call her out on it immediately.


----------



## Emerald

doublep said:


> Well... I wont leave my sick wife and if I am the fool and it is all a game to buy time then I at least can know I tried and honored our marriage through better or worse.


You are no fool. You don't know WTH is wrong with her until she is professionally dxed. You need to be there & be strong for your children. They can't be left alone for long periods of time with a habitual drinker (not sure if she's an alcoholic but suspect she is).

What if the children need a ride somewhere or have an emergency that requires a ride to the hospital? Drunken Mom would drive them? I bet she already drives with a few drinks in her. Are you aware in my state (CA) there is zero tolerance for driving under the influence? .08 is a false sense of security & if someone blows higher that .08 another charge is added to a DUI.

So she is gaming instead of doing chores, gardening & other activities she used to enjoy? and now that gaming is leading to EA's which is completely out of character for a mostly non-sexual woman? How would your children feel about Mom flirting with virtual strangers?

This situation is more out of control than you realize. You are focusing on your hurt feelings when you should be sucking it up & fighting for your family. Splitting up a family with children ages 9 & 15 would be extra hard because of their ages. There is never a right time but if they children are very young or grown, it is easier on the children (studies prove it).

It is not a popular viewpoint on this site to stay together for the sake of the children. However, I think all possible solutions should at least be explored first.


----------



## doublep

Emerald said:


> You are no fool. You don't know WTH is wrong with her until she is professionally dxed. You need to be there & be strong for your children. They can't be left alone for long periods of time with a habitual drinker (not sure if she's an alcoholic but suspect she is).
> 
> What if the children need a ride somewhere or have an emergency that requires a ride to the hospital? Drunken Mom would drive them? I bet she already drives with a few drinks in her. Are you aware in my state (CA) there is zero tolerance for driving under the influence? .08 is a false sense of security & if someone blows higher that .08 another charge is added to a DUI.
> 
> So she is gaming instead of doing chores, gardening & other activities she used to enjoy? and now that gaming is leading to EA's which is completely out of character for a mostly non-sexual woman? How would your children feel about Mom flirting with virtual strangers?
> 
> This situation is more out of control than you realize. You are focusing on your hurt feelings when you should be sucking it up & fighting for your family. Splitting up a family with children ages 9 & 15 would be extra hard because of their ages. There is never a right time but if they children are very young or grown, it is easier on the children (studies prove it).
> 
> It is not a popular viewpoint on this site to stay together for the sake of the children. However, I think all possible solutions should at least be explored first.


I am not going anywhere, I will not leave my sick wife. Whether it's a lie or not I cant let enter my thoughts right now.

I think I come here for me... I read on here and all over other Doctor related sites and material that you can't forget yourself. What I say on here, when I express my heartbreak and sadness I don't reflect on to her.... For her I am showing my strength.

But I also need an outlet. I am at my lowest point in life.


----------



## anchorwatch

Vent away! 

Use this place. 

Scream if you have too.


----------



## TRy

doublep said:


> She has deleted all her email accounts, stopped gaming, wants help and knows she is stuck in a deep depression


 Your wife is not suffering from some medical condition that has her in a depression. You wife is in a depression because she misses her affair partner and the brain drug rush that he gave her. Studies show during the first few years of a romantic relationship the body release a brain drug similar to cocaine that is very addictive. This drug decrease over time in all realtionship until it stops being release in a mature relationship. Nature hopes that by the time that this drug stops being released, the relationship will have other things that bond you together. After 26 years there is little chance that your wife can ever get this drug from you again. Only her new lover can give her this drug that she has become addicted to. Treating it like it is a medical condition gives her an excuse for her actions, and increase the odds that she will turn again to her lover when the heat is turned down. There must be consequences and she must fear really losing you for her to resist contacting her lover again in the future. 

If you look back at my past posts on this thread, I repeatedly argued that she was having an affair, and specifically called it when I said in post number 363 that "Having been an on-line gamer myself at one time, an online EA is a very real possibility here." I know that you already admitted that you were wrong, but I am quoting this in the hopes that you might really listen to me now. The path that you are taking now will lead to her cheating again in the future. She will just be better at hiding it.

Even though you want to, you cannot be too understanding. You cannot let her use the false medical excuse, for her being lovesick. You must not sweep this under the rub. You must demand full no contact with her lover. You must demand full transparency which includes all passwords without complaint. She must agree that deleting anything from anyone without you seeing it first is assumed cheating. You must contact an attorney and let her know that you are doing so. You must be willing to end the marraige in order to have a chance at saving it. Do not beleive anything that she says as her heart is still with the other man. She fears not having you there to support her world, but still wants the other man. Let her know that divorce is on the table unless she through action over a long period of time proves to you that she deserves another chance. Sorry to be so harsh but you only get one chance at doing this right. Be well and good luck to you.


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> I never became blunted or sleepy-headed or lost my edge. Just sayin'.





doublep said:


> I am not going anywhere, I will not leave my sick wife. Whether it's a lie or not I cant let enter my thoughts right now.
> 
> I think I come here for me... I read on here and all over other Doctor related sites and material that you can't forget yourself. What I say on here, when I express my heartbreak and sadness I don't reflect on to her.... For her I am showing my strength.
> 
> But I also need an outlet. I am at my lowest point in life.


Thank God this looks like something that is fixable in the long haul. It could be worse. I hope when you are down that you consider that this isn't something that is fatal like a terminal disease.

She seems willing but keep holding her feet to the fire.


----------



## Chaparral

While she is a bit malleable, ask her about her childhood abuse and if there was a sexual component to it to.


----------



## Chaparral

:iagree:


TRy said:


> Your wife is not suffering from some medical condition that has her in a depression. You wife is in a depression because she misses her affair partner and the brain drug rush that he gave her. Studies show during the first few years of a romantic relationship the body release a brain drug similar to cocaine that is very addictive. This drug decrease over time in all realtionship until it stops being release in a mature relationship. Nature hopes that by the time that this drug stops being released, the relationship will have other things that bond you together. After 26 years there is little chance that your wife can ever get this drug from you again. Only her new lover can give her this drug that she has become addicted to. Treating it like it is a medical condition gives her an excuse for her actions, and increase the odds that she will turn again to her lover when the heat is turned down. There must be consequences and she must fear really losing you for her to resist contacting her lover again in the future.
> 
> If you look back at my past posts on this thread, I repeatedly argued that she was having an affair, and specifically called it when I said in post number 363 that "Having been an on-line gamer myself at one time, an online EA is a very real possibility here." I know that you already admitted that you were wrong, but I am quoting this in the hopes that you might really listen to me now. The path that you are taking now will lead to her cheating again in the future. She will just be better at hiding it.
> 
> Even though you want to, you cannot be too understanding. You cannot let her use the false medical excuse, for her being lovesick. You must not sweep this under the rub. You must demand full no contact with her lover. You must demand full transparency which includes all passwords without complaint. She must agree that deleting anything from anyone without you seeing it first is assumed cheating. You must contact an attorney and let her know that you are doing so. You must be willing to end the marraige in order to have a chance at saving it. Do not beleive anything that she says as her heart is still with the other man. She fears not having you there to support her world, but still wants the other man. Let her know that divorce is on the table unless she through action over a long period of time proves to you that she deserves another chance. Sorry to be so harsh but you only get one chance at doing this right. Be well and good luck to you.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

TRy, what do you think about her saying she doesn't know the real name of her AP? It doesn't smell right to me but I am not a gamer. Frankly I would not be surprised that they had met up. Also, how would you know where he really lives? You sure cant expect a cheater to tell the truth.


----------



## TRy

Chaparral said:


> TRy, what do you think about her saying she doesn't know the real name of her AP? It doesn't smell right to me but I am not a gamer. Frankly I would not be surprised that they had met up. Also, how would you know where he really lives? You sure cant expect a cheater to tell the truth.


 As a gamer I did not know the real names of most of the people that I played with. In fact, in many cases it was not polite to even ask. That being said, I did know the real names of a few of my closes online friends as we exchanged phone numbers and even met up in person when they came to town. Although I find it hard to beleive that she does not know his real name and phone number, there is a remote possibility that this is true. It really sucks when a proven liar and cheat always expects you to beleive the unlikely as a given fact based only on their word, but you often have little choice.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

if she has been cheating on you, them IMO the kind of love she needs from you now is the tough variety. Move out temporarily to light a fire under her motivation to get serious help. Otherwise you may be doing nothing but enabling her....


----------



## Wazza

TRy said:


> As a gamer I did not know the real names of most of the people that I played with. In fact, in many cases it was not polite to even ask. That being said, I did know the real names of a few of my closes online friends as we exchanged phone numbers and even met up in person when they came to town. Although I find it hard to beleive that she does not know his real name and phone number, there is a remote possibility that this is true. It really sucks when a proven liar and cheat always expects you to beleive the unlikely as a given fact based only on their word, but you often have little choice.


Your choice is to know more than you admit, to have ways of checking up on your spouse that she doesn't know about, and to see whether she is truthful going forward or continues to lie.

Be aware that in my case, and I think in every case I have read in TAM, the wayward continued to lie for a time. It's a normal human method of damage control.


----------



## Catherine602

Chaparral said:


> While she is a bit malleable, ask her about her childhood abuse and if there was a sexual component to it to.


I too think that she has been sexually abused.Given her lack of supervision and her unhappiness as a young girl, the absence of a father and her mothers boyfriend/s and the stepfather and his friends, one or more may have abused her. It's important to know because she needs intervention by an expert in CSA/rape. Google for information about CSA and rape of young girls. If it happened then it has been buried for decades. 

The memories usually come back at 30 - 40 yo. It will be very difficult for her to relive they things in therapy. Don't ask her directly, she is unlikely to tell you. There is a great deal of shame involved. I know this may seem to be invading her privacy but you should get a VAR in her car and in the home where she makes calls. It is terribly invasive and a sign of lack of trust. But you can't trust her yet. 

You can't trust her to protect herself and her life as your wife and her role as a mother. You need to know. If she can hides this, she can hide many things. To help her, you must know. She seems to have turned around too quickly for such a monumental betrayal. 

I am not sure that she could have done this without without some feelings for you that she is not revealing. Don't press her for that now. You will not get any answers from her. Keep your eyes open and don't believe every thing you hear. watch for behavior that does not match what she is saying. 

Your wife is not evil or a bad person. But she amy not who you think she is. She may not have shared some of her deep seated thoughts and feeling with you. People change dramatically between 16 and about 26 yo. Then the changes slow down but, they still happen. She is not the 16 yo that you fell in love with. Do you know her? 

She is deeply depressed but you have no idea why. You need to know. It is likely to have something to do with her childhood and teen yrs. Think back to what you observed all those yrs ago.


----------



## Catherine602

BTW I think it is a bad idea to move out for several reason. You have made no plans for your kids or finances. You need to be onsite to get the full story. Getting the full story will figure in your decision to R. Has she done this before or has she had a PA/s in the past? 

Hang in there for a while. Also, you don't have to answer if you think the question is too invasive but does she want to have sex?


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> BTW I think it is a bad idea to move out for several reason. You have made no plans for your kids or finances. You need to be onsite to get the full story. Getting the full story will figure in your decision to R. Has she done this before or has she had a PA/s in the past?
> 
> Hang in there for a while. Also, you don't have to answer if you think the question is too invasive but does she want to have sex?


We have had no mention of sex.... She has never had an affair before, no....
I am really not doing well, this is all too much with other **** I have to deal with.


----------



## Trickster

hey double

Are you the very first my man that your wife has ever loved and cared for?

Is she the first woman that you have ever loved? 

You were both so very young. She was just 16.

Sometimes marriages change. Many times they change. My marriage is not what I would call anything close to perfection, but its still a marriage. Every marriage has different dynamics and what may be tolerated by one, may not work for another. 

Take a breather double.…

Do you a support system? 

Family?

Siblings?

Friends?


----------



## sinnister

doublep said:


> We have had no mention of sex.... She has never had an affair before, no....
> I am really not doing well, this is all too much with other **** I have to deal with.


It's completely counter productive....I know....I know. But you have to take care of you! Please...please listen to that. She has detached and cheated emotionally. I know it sounds weird man but try to put it in to perspective. Outsiders can see the forest from the trees. You're right in the thick of it so you can't really see. Supporting her is great in the right situation. Neglecting yourself is ALWAYS wrong.

I hope to upon hope you guys work this out. But more than anything please do what is right for you. Even if it means detaching from somebody who has hurt you deeply.


----------



## Catherine602

doublep said:


> We have had no mention of sex.... She has never had an affair before, no....
> I am really not doing well, this is all too much with other **** I have to deal with.


Is there anyone that you trust that you can rely on for support? You have not mentioned getting professional help. Do you have anyone who can assist you with finding an appropriate IC/MC? What is your wife doing? It's good for depressed people to act. Give her the task to find and arrange to see a IC. 

I dont understand why she would not have sex. I think it would help you both. You have each other to lean on for emotional support. If she could be emotionally intimate with this OM and she is sorry, why can't she transfer that intimacy to the man she says she loves.

When she says she loves you, what does that mean? Not saying push it but keep this in mind to help you decide what to do and how to proceed. Does she love you as a friend or a lover? If she wants you to forgive her, which part does she want forgiven - the EA and/or the withdrawal.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> Is there anyone that you trust that you can rely on for support? You have not mentioned getting professional help. Do you have anyone who can assist you with finding an appropriate IC/MC? What is your wife doing? It's good for depressed people to act. Give her the task to find and arrange to see a IC.
> 
> I dont understand why she would not have sex. I think it would help you both. You have each other to lean on for emotional support. If she could be emotionally intimate with this OM and she is sorry, why can't she transfer that intimacy to the man she says she loves.
> 
> When she says she loves you, what does that mean? Not saying push it but keep this in mind to help you decide what to do and how to proceed. Does she love you as a friend or a lover? If she wants you to forgive her, which part does she want forgiven - the EA and/or the withdrawal.


I think this is what bothers me most... She had no problem letting me know she was not sexual at all but had no problem talking sexual with some online gaming guy.....

It is the thought that I cant get out of my head.


----------



## Chaparral

doublep said:


> I think this is what bothers me most... She had no problem letting me know she was not sexual at all but had no problem talking sexual with some online gaming guy.....
> 
> It is the thought that I cant get out of my head.


This is common with cheaters. Women cheaters are usually monogamous. Thats why in looking for red flags in the cwi section, folks want to know if the frequency of sex has changed. Usually cheating women cut way back on sex or totally cut their husband off. They are just being faithful to the om. That is why your wife's sudden turn around is more that just suspicious.


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> hey double
> 
> Are you the very first my man that your wife has ever loved and cared for?
> 
> Is she the first woman that you have ever loved?
> 
> You were both so very young. She was just 16.
> 
> Sometimes marriages change. Many times they change. My marriage is not what I would call anything close to perfection, but its still a marriage. Every marriage has different dynamics and what may be tolerated by one, may not work for another.
> 
> Take a breather double.…
> 
> Do you a support system?
> 
> Family?
> 
> Siblings?
> 
> Friends?


Yes she is my first love and I am hers... We did back when we were 19 or so split up for about 5 months and see other people but of course we got back together.

SHe has so far deleted the email I found out and hides nothing. She is not gaming any longer and she does cry everyday and apologize to me. I just have a hard time with trust now....

I saw my counseler yesterday and she did say to keep it all in perspective. Though she had an EA it is different, meaning she has some issues and though she was ashamed doing it, she also told herself it was okay because it was fake. No names, not physical, no visuals, all text..... It is not uncommon she said.

I forgave her but I do have a hard time moving foward. I am such a loyal and honorable man, that is how I live my life. This to me is such a betrayal. I stab directly into my heart.... I show her strength but here I come to vent my heartbreak.

How do I move forward??


----------



## turnera

Well, if you want to stay with her, I suggest trying to get a broader perspective of people, maybe by reading books about psychology. Not one of us is immune to flattery, no matter how sure we are that we would never cheat. It's a basic human need, to be admired. And life gets boring. And when people age up, they start to wonder what they've missed out on, especially if they never 'dated around.' And married couples become boring. So add it all up and you got what you got, pretty typical and pretty easy to happen.


----------



## dubsey

doublep said:


> How do I move forward??


Someone here will have the guidelines for betrayed/wandering spouses, and I'm sure they'll copy it in.

She needs to understand what you're going through. You can be strong, but she needs to understand too so she knows what she's dealing with, or she can't help herself help you help her. 

or something like that. I'm not trying to make light of it, but she needs to understand what she caused within you too. Being strong for her is good, but at the expense of her understanding, it'll only hurt you down the line.


----------



## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> Is there anyone that you trust that you can rely on for support? You have not mentioned getting professional help. Do you have anyone who can assist you with finding an appropriate IC/MC? What is your wife doing? It's good for depressed people to act. Give her the task to find and arrange to see a IC.
> 
> I dont understand why she would not have sex. I think it would help you both. You have each other to lean on for emotional support. If she could be emotionally intimate with this OM and she is sorry, why can't she transfer that intimacy to the man she says she loves.
> 
> When she says she loves you, what does that mean? Not saying push it but keep this in mind to help you decide what to do and how to proceed. Does she love you as a friend or a lover? If she wants you to forgive her, which part does she want forgiven - the EA and/or the withdrawal.


I have no answers on this... Here are some of her words:

" I need you to know how truly sorry I am for this, I feel so ashamed."
"I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you"
"Please know I was taken by the fantasy"
" I dont think I can forgive myself"
" If you die I wont live I will follow you"

She cuddled and slept next to me, she at least hugged me and looks for me... All good signs BUT.....

She never says I love you unless I ask her if she does. When she says it, it rings a bit hollow and she says it's because she still is pushing people away, not just me but her kids. She feels just as bad for being a robot to her kids as well......

So no sex as of yet.... For guys its a big deal. This is why I am so confused.


----------



## Openminded

This is not something most people get over quickly. It takes awhile for trust to return once it's broken. Often it takes a long time. And triggers can pop up expectedly. 

It's not a quick process.

ETA: You're right to be confused. Doesn't sound like a typical R at this point.


----------



## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> I have no answers on this... Here are some of her words:
> 
> " I need you to know how truly sorry I am for this, I feel so ashamed."
> "I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you"
> "Please know I was taken by the fantasy"
> " I dont think I can forgive myself"
> " If you die I wont live I will follow you"
> 
> She cuddled and slept next to me, she at least hugged me and looks for me... All good signs BUT.....
> 
> She never says I love you unless I ask her if she does. When she says it, it rings a bit hollow and she says it's because she still is pushing people away, not just me but her kids. She feels just as bad for being a robot to her kids as well......
> 
> So no sex as of yet.... For guys its a big deal. This is why I am so confused.


So what is she doing to fix herself?
Did she say/wrote "I love you" to the OM?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doublep

Tobyboy said:


> So what is she doing to fix herself?
> Did she say/wrote "I love you" to the OM?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is getting help for her PTSD and Depression with her doctor.

No, she never said I love you to him. She thought of him as a good friend that got out of control via chats..... Of course, he said all the right things to her and she feels ashamed because as she said "I am usually the one talking about the weak who fall for that stuff".


----------



## Trickster

doublep

I get a feeling that your wife may feel that no other man will ever love her like you love her. She realizes that she may not love you back the same way like you deserve. She may not ever love another person after you. You seem like the ultimate good guy and she may not feel worthy. So she sabatoges the marriage.

Sometimes love in mechanical. We know what it looks like, or supposed to look like but we just may not feel it... Maybe we can blame Hollywood and the happily after bull.



No sex is tough.....Would you be OK if you wife wanted sex again to please you, even though there may be no emotional connection for her and she would have sex because she wants to make you happy?


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep
> 
> I get a feeling that your wife may feel that no other man will ever love her like you love her. She realizes that she may not love you back the same way like you deserve. She may not ever love another person after you. You seem like the ultimate good guy and she may not feel worthy. So she sabatoges the marriage.
> 
> Sometimes love in mechanical. We know what it looks like, or supposed to look like but we just may not feel it... Maybe we can blame Hollywood and the happily after bull.
> 
> 
> 
> No sex is tough.....Would you be OK if you wife wanted sex again to please you, even though there may be no emotional connection for her and she would have sex because she wants to make you happy?


It is funny you say that because she said to me a few times "How can you love me that much, I dont deserve that"

Maybe in the end... She is trying to find a love that just is not there......


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> I have no answers on this... Here are some of her words:
> 
> " I need you to know how truly sorry I am for this, I feel so ashamed."
> "I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you"
> "Please know I was taken by the fantasy"
> " I dont think I can forgive myself"
> " If you die I wont live I will follow you"
> 
> 
> *So no sex as of yet.... For guys its a big deal. This is why I am so confused.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Are you listening to what she is really saying?


----------



## TRy

doublep said:


> Maybe in the end... She is trying to find a love that just is not there......


 The fact that she feels butterflies with the other man that she does not feel with you is normal. There is a newness brain drug that is similar to cocaine that stops being produced after you are a few years into a relationship. There is nothing that you can do about that, as it is just not there anymore. Hopefully as your relationship matured, other things began to bind you as a couple when that newness brain drug stopped being produced. She needs to value these other things that bind you for what they are (true love), and she needs to stop falsely believing that you cannot be in love if you do not have the newness brain drug butterflies. It is all part of being in a long term monogamous relationship.


----------



## turnera

I would tell her 'if you can't have sex with me, we obviously don't have a bond worth keeping. I'll start making plans to divorce.'


----------



## wtf2012

AVR1962 said:


> Sounds to me like your wife is being honest in expressing her feelings to you. I said something similar to my husband not long ago, we've been together for 25 years and he took it the same way you are. You are taking this personally but she is simply expressing her confused feelings. I definitely see this as workable, she just needs your support, your understanding for her own confusion. Stepping away on your part and taking it as an emotional hit against you will only make the situation worse.
> 
> I would not say this has anything to do with another an, nor would I say it has to do with menopause. While it does happen this early for some, I would not say it is average.
> 
> I think marriage and our feelings towards one another, our interests, our goals, our thoughts for life all go thru stages. Sometimes we ourselves do not even understand the various stages we are going thru. It could be that she sees herself at 40 and wondering what happened to her life, what does her future hold, where is she going, she might be asking herself who she is. Women spend so much time caught up in the lives of their children, their families and many times lose themselves. I can't speak for her, I am only guessing, but it is possible she is going thru something like this and just is lost in hr own thoughts.
> 
> Don't jump to any conclusions here. Give her support, if she will talk to you that is great but try to listen without taking things personally. She might just need to work her thoughts out in her head and if you can be there for her, great!


Husband of 26 years, not sure if I love you. Don't take it personally.

Too bad when I heard something similar I didn't know enough to say "Don't worry I won't take it personally. You really should figure out wth is wrong with you. After I serve you, I'm gonna try and date your friends. Please don't take it personally."

This has to be some of the worst advice I have ever read on TAM.

To the OP:
I would strongly advise to jump to the conclusion that your wife doesn't love you like you need to be loved and work from there.

In my experience, my emotional support during my ex-wife's personal marriage crisis helped facilitate her affair. YMMV, but I suggest to keep reading TAM to see how many exceptions there to the long marriage, ILYBNILWY marriage arc


----------



## doublep

wtf2012 said:


> doublep said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have no answers on this... Here are some of her words:
> 
> " I need you to know how truly sorry I am for this, I feel so ashamed."
> "I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you"
> "Please know I was taken by the fantasy"
> " I dont think I can forgive myself"
> " If you die I wont live I will follow you"
> 
> 
> *So no sex as of yet.... For guys its a big deal. This is why I am so confused.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> Are you listening to what she is really saying?
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me what you think she is saying?
Click to expand...


----------



## turnera

She doesn't love you.


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> She doesn't love you.


Then I wish she would stop telling me she did.... It makes it all that much harder now.


----------



## TRy

turnera said:


> She doesn't love you.


 That may not be what she is saying. The affair brought out feelings that she has not felt since she was first dating the OP. This may have her confused about her feelings for the OP, but that does not necessarily mean that she will not figure out that she really is in love with the OP once the affair fog has cleared. It is up to the OP to figure out if he wants to stay around long enough to find out. To the OP this is not some theory, this is his life, and there are no easy answers here.


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> wtf2012 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tell me what you think she is saying?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. I didn't read the whole thread...correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> You asked about ILBNILY. I immediately posted and said if not yet another guy then she wants one. You didn't think so. Eventually with everyone else's piling on with advice, you figure out she is communicating with at least one other person. EA as they say. Now she is "remorseful" but her behavior doesn't match her words so you are confused.
> 
> If infidelity, even an EA (if it really was only an 1 EA over the course of the long marriage), is a deal breaker for you, then get off your @ss and file already.
> 
> If it is not, then I wish you luck sir. I know that road and it sucks. If you haven't googled chumplady yet you should. Reconcilliation with an unremorseful *remorseful* cheater is nothing but one sh!t sandwich after another. No amount of fine imported pink himalayan salt will make it palatable.
> 
> *She is saying she doesn't love you (or your kids or family) as much as she loves herself.*
> 
> Alternatively you could spend 2 years in therapy to set yourself 5 years behind in your new life, or you could trust that she sucks and get out now.
> 
> Maybe I am way off base. I mean it is your life, and I am just some rando from the interwebs. So don't go screwing up your life and marriage just based on my advice, but I am thinking that's where you're headed whether you want to or not.
> 
> Good luck.
Click to expand...


----------



## anchorwatch

Have you booked an IC/MC yet to discus this?

If you're waiting for an appointment you might read any of the recommended books that deal with these issues, for quicker insight.


----------



## wtf2012

Just reading back over your thread and I saw PTSD. Was this from childhood sexual abuse or something else?


----------



## doublep

anchorwatch said:


> Have you booked an IC/MC yet to discus this?
> 
> If you're waiting for an appointment you might read any of the recommended books that deal with these issues, for quicker insight.


I did... My IC said to keep it in persepective, PTSD and Depression does funny things to the brain, especially after 26 years with no history of anything like this.

My IC said she escaped her issues by living a fake life online to talk to people who dont know her and can get some sense of worth, even though she knew it was fake.

When i caught her and confronted her hard, she broke... She didn't break as in, now she was all back in love but she said (and my IC agreed) that it snapped her out of a coma. She realized what life she was living and got disgusted with herself. She still has issues but she says she knows now she wants her family back to include me.

This is the thing which I know no one can really answer but festers in my head... Is she real or is this a "I will say anything to not get thrown out" ploy. My IC thinks is genuine because of the wording she is using and the willingness to get help.

My problem is I am such a loyal man and live by honor, this is a betrayal so hard for me to take, even though it was just online with no pictures, etc.... It is still an EA.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

doublep said:


> I did... My IC said to keep it in persepective, PTSD and Depression does funny things to the brain, especially after 26 years with no history of anything like this.
> 
> My IC said she escaped her issues by living a fake life online to talk to people who dont know her and can get some sense of worth, even though she knew it was fake.
> 
> When i caught her and confronted her hard, she broke... She didn't break as in, now she was all back in love but she said (and my IC agreed) that it snapped her out of a coma. She realized what life she was living and got disgusted with herself. She still has issues but she says she knows now she wants her family back to include me.
> 
> This is the thing which I know no one can really answer but festers in my head... Is she real or is this a "I will say anything to not get thrown out" ploy. My IC thinks is genuine because of the wording she is using and the willingness to get help.
> 
> My problem is I am such a loyal man and live by honor, this is a betrayal so hard for me to take, even though it was just online with no pictures, etc.... It is still an EA.


When you can't tell for sure if it's real or not, you need only look at her actions. The actions always tell the truth.


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> I did... My IC said to keep it in persepective, PTSD and Depression does funny things to the brain, especially after 26 years with no history of anything like this.
> 
> My IC said she escaped her issues by living a fake life online to talk to people who dont know her and can get some sense of worth, even though she knew it was fake.
> 
> When i caught her and confronted her hard, she broke... She didn't break as in, now she was all back in love but she said (and my IC agreed) that it snapped her out of a coma. She realized what life she was living and got disgusted with herself. She still has issues but she says she knows now she wants her family back to include me.
> 
> This is the thing which I know no one can really answer but festers in my head... Is she real or is this a "I will say anything to not get thrown out" ploy. My IC thinks is genuine because of the wording she is using and the willingness to get help.
> 
> My problem is I am such a loyal man and live by honor, this is a betrayal so hard for me to take, even though it was just online with no pictures, etc.... It is still an EA.


Ok. Dude my heart goes out to you. I have been where you are. 

Now to advice.

Your therapist sounds like they are't very good. I might be wrong. Grain of salt.

this is gonna be painful to hear. She loves you opportunistically. I think she both loves you and doesn't want to get thrown (putting actual legal possibilities aside to travel down this what if).

It is both. She is genuine and delusional. She lies to herself way more than she lies to you.

Bottom line. It doesn't matter if she is genuine or not. Yuo still where you are.

So blame her sh!ttiness on the PTSD, depression, her childhood, what she had for breakfast. it doesn't matter, she has the capability to treat you like a turd the neighbor dog left in the yard. Doesn't sound like good marriage material to me.


----------



## doublep

wtf2012 said:


> Just reading back over your thread and I saw PTSD. Was this from childhood sexual abuse or something else?


Childhood abuse (verbal and severe) from Step father, real dad died homeless at 41 of alcoholism... Mother didnt care about the kids and never paid attention unless she needed something....

Then her mom got Dementia 3 years ago and needed to be taken care of while she had major resentment for her for not caring her whole life for her....

Then the raid on our home 2 years ago left scars...


----------



## anchorwatch

Good on you using your IC. 

"Is it real" 

Only time will tell.

Human issues don't sort themselves quickly.


----------



## Tobyboy

EA are devastating.....still have the shirt!!!

It's been years since I discovered my FWW EA and the #1 one thing I've learned since is this. Words. Either written or spoken are meaningless without actions to back them up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> Childhood abuse (verbal and severe) from Step father, real dad died homeless at 41 of alcoholism... Mother didnt care about the kids and never paid attention unless she needed something....
> 
> Then her mom got Dementia 3 years ago and needed to be taken care of while she had major resentment for her for not caring her whole life for her....
> 
> Then the raid on our home 2 years ago left scars...


severe? does that mean sexual? it makes a difference.

So based on that little bit of info. I am gonna armchair this

She is probably delusional about what she wants. She is definitely confused. If she manages to resist behaviors that are unacceptable in a marriage (like EAs), she will be miserable, depressed, and resentful at having to restrain herself until she is able to fix her f#cked thought patterns. You will NEVER make her happy or meet her expectations. She is probably afraid of abandonment, and the raid probably really f#cked with her. Abusive childhoods make people generally feel unsafe, and she probably resents you for causing the raid or not protecting her.

Bottom line is she lacks appropriate coping skills. She should be in therapy with someone who challenges her faulty thinking (not a Jungian analyst or divorce professional). You should look into BPD and NPD mental disorders. Any of that sound familar. Also look up any thread or reply by TAM user uptown.

If you want to get into private details and what they mean feel free to pm me.

You are not the only one to walk this path.


----------



## doublep

wtf2012 said:


> So blame her sh!ttiness on the PTSD, depression, her childhood, what she had for breakfast. it doesn't matter, she has the capability to treat you like a turd the neighbor dog left in the yard. Doesn't sound like good marriage material to me.


In every case I would absolutely agree with and I may even here but she has never treated me this way in 26 years. This is way out of character. Sure we have had issues before, nothing like this but this is a 180.

What kind of husband would I be if I left a sick wife? yet, dont think for a second that "sucker" does not enter my mind every 10 minutes.


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> In every case I would absolutely agree with and I may even here but she has never treated me this way in 26 years. This is way out of character. Sure we have had issues before, nothing like this but this is a 180.
> 
> What kind of husband would I be if I left a sick wife? yet, dont think for a second that "sucker" does not enter my mind every 10 minutes.


Everyone is sick. 

BUT YOU CAN'T SAVE HER OR FIX THIS.

Only she can. 

Usually the best support for someone is sick (BPD) is to let them deal with their consequences from their sh!tty behavior. By protecting her, you are only prolonging her (and your) suffering.


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> In every case I would absolutely agree with and I may even here but she has never treated me this way in 26 years. This is way out of character. Sure we have had issues before, nothing like this but this is a 180.
> 
> What kind of husband would I be if I left a sick wife? yet, dont think for a second that "sucker" does not enter my mind every 10 minutes.


And if you need more justification other than she cheated and broke the vows, then think about your kids. Do you want them to see that normal is mommies treating daddies like sh!t?

Sickness and health. The words are nice and honorable, but both have to honor them to have a marriage


----------



## doublep

Tobyboy said:


> EA are devastating.....still have the shirt!!!
> 
> It's been years since I discovered my FWW EA and the #1 one thing I've learned since is this. Words. Either written or spoken are meaningless without actions to back them up.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is devastating because I can not shake the pain.
I also can not shake the "Am I a fool to believe?" feeling....

As far as actions?

She has come to me every day and says she is devasted at what she did, crying and all. 
She says she wants her family back, all of it, kids and me.
She says she wants help and will get it.
She has stopped gaming, emails, etc. (I still have Keylogger).
She wanted to actually hang out last night and hugged me and held my hand for a bit.


Now the bad?

She still does not say I love you unless I do.
Still No Sex.
When she apologizes for the EA she says it almost like a friend who forgot to pick up another friend for an important appointment... Meaning, she wil say:

"I am so sorry for what I did to you, I know how important that is and I would have never guessed I am the one who would have done this!"

I think if there was love it would sound like this:

"I can't believe what I did to you, I love you so much and to do this to you when you needed me most is almost unbarable."

Am I wrong?


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> It is devastating because I can not shake the pain.
> I also can not shake the "Am I a fool to believe?" feeling....
> 
> As far as actions?
> 
> She has come to me every day and *says* she is devasted at what she did, crying and all.
> She *says* she wants her family back, all of it, kids and me.
> She *says* she wants help and will get it.
> She has stopped gaming, emails, etc. (I still have Keylogger).
> She wanted to actually hang out last night and hugged me and held my hand for a bit.
> 
> 
> Now the bad?
> 
> She still does not say I love you unless I do.
> Still No Sex.
> When she apologizes for the EA she says it almost like a friend who forgot to pick up another friend for an important appointment... Meaning, she wil say:
> 
> "I am so sorry for what I did to you, I know how important that is and I would have never guessed I am the one who would have done this!"
> 
> I think if there was love it would sound like this:
> 
> "I can't believe what I did to you, I love you so much and to do this to you when you needed me most is almost unbarable."
> 
> Am I wrong?


No. But words aren't actions. Stopping gaming is a plus. Has she signed up for IC?


----------



## doublep

wtf2012 said:


> No. But words aren't actions. Stopping gaming is a plus. Has she signed up for IC?


Ironically, she just texted me for the number for my EAP program from work. She can get specialzed treatment for free because my Company is considered high stress and it applies to families.... Good sign I would say...


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> Ironically, she just texted me for the number for my EAP program from work. She can get specialzed treatment for free because my Company is considered high stress and it applies to families.... Good sign I would say...


Try and find out what type of therapist she goes to. This will make a HUGE difference. Like I said earlier no Jungians or divorce profesionals. Most of the time therapy is a waste, but I have heard that sometimes DBT is good for BPD (often PTSD and BPD are comorbid in childhood abuse survivors). she definitely needs someone she can trust to challenge her faulty thought patterns


----------



## doublep

wtf2012 said:


> Try and find out what type of therapist she goes to. This will make a HUGE difference. Like I said earlier no Jungians or divorce profesionals. Most of the time therapy is a waste, but I have heard that sometimes DBT is good for BPD (often PTSD and BPD are comorbid in childhood abuse survivors). she definitely needs someone she can trust to challenge her faulty thought patterns


This program isnt for divorce or MC, it is for specialized care for Depression, PTSD and/ or anxiety.


----------



## wtf2012

doublep said:


> This program isnt for divorce or MC, it is for specialized care for Depression, PTSD and/ or anxiety.


Ok that is good, but therapy is a whole range of things. The first time she goes the therapist will talk about things like modalities, coping mechanisms, FOO, blah blah blah. The style of treatment the therapists uses will be good information. Don't let them bs you (or her) about some mishmash approach. There have been studies that show for most serious problems the mishmash approach is not very successful.


----------



## doublep

wtf2012 said:


> Ok that is good, but therapy is a whole range of things. The first time she goes the therapist will talk about things like modalities, coping mechanisms, FOO, blah blah blah. The style of treatment the therapists uses will be good information. Don't let them bs you (or her) about some mishmash approach. There have been studies that show for most serious problems the mishmash approach is not very successful.


Yeah.... I just hope I am not playing the fool. At some point I have to make a decision as the whether she really needs help or if this is a ploy to delay so I dont leave (I am the money maker).

My IC did say, no matter if she is sick and it lingers for a while, I have to help myself 1st. I have to be the most important thing to care of 1st.... I dont really know what that means?


----------



## turnera

Have you addressed the no-sex issue? What's her excuse? Is she aware you won't keep her if she doesn't?


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> Have you addressed the no-sex issue? What's her excuse? Is she aware you won't keep her if she doesn't?


I have not touched on this yet... Should I?

Also, just a reminder, I come here because I think a lot of your advice and history is fantastic. I show my weaknesses here and my heart break... To her, I do not. I show strength, but I do need an outlet....


----------



## Wazza

doublep said:


> I have not touched on this yet... Should I?
> 
> Also, just a reminder, I come here because I think a lot of your advice and history is fantastic. I show my weaknesses here and my heart break... To her, I do not. I show strength, but I do need an outlet....


No sex I such a situation is unusual. What happened in my case and many others I have read about here is hysterical bonding...the wildest sex you have ever had.

Plus she is not initiating "I love you"?

It sounds to me like she is conflicted in some way. The counselling might help figure out how.


----------



## turnera

I think more than anything, at this point, you need to make it clear that you are 'considering your options' - i.e., whether you will 'let' her stay after what she's done. Women NEED to see their men being strong at times like this, or they cannot desire them. To that end, she MUST understand that to men, having sex is how you feel loved. Many women just never learn this in life (women typically have to feel loved to want to have sex). So she needs to hear from you that if she thinks you'll let her stay when she's unwilling to have sex with you, she's sadly mistaken.


----------



## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> Ironically, she just texted me for the number for my EAP program from work. She can get specialzed treatment for free because my Company is considered high stress and it applies to families.... Good sign I would say...


Ok. At least she's showing some initiative. But, still only words. 

What's very troubling is the no "I love you's" and no HB(hysterical bonding).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Emerald

doublep said:


> It is devastating because I can not shake the pain.
> I also can not shake the "Am I a fool to believe?" feeling....
> 
> As far as actions?
> 
> She has come to me every day and says she is devasted at what she did, crying and all.
> She says she wants her family back, all of it, kids and me.
> She says she wants help and will get it.
> She has stopped gaming, emails, etc. (I still have Keylogger).
> She wanted to actually hang out last night and hugged me and held my hand for a bit.
> 
> 
> Now the bad?
> 
> She still does not say I love you unless I do.
> Still No Sex.
> When she apologizes for the EA she says it almost like a friend who forgot to pick up another friend for an important appointment... Meaning, she wil say:
> 
> "I am so sorry for what I did to you, I know how important that is and I would have never guessed I am the one who would have done this!"
> 
> I think if there was love it would sound like this:
> 
> "I can't believe what I did to you, I love you so much and to do this to you when you needed me most is almost unbarable."
> 
> Am I wrong?


Have you communicated your needs to her?

"Cheating wife - I want & need you to tell & show me that you love me. I need you to say you love me first & mean it because I can tell fake. I want you to stop with the mechanical "I'm so sorry blah, blah, blah. I need you to show me that you still love me with your body during sex. If you fake it, I can tell. I understand you have mental issues & I expect you to get immediate & consistent help with results. I also want you to quit drinking, at least during this stressful time in our lives so you don't self-medicate. I also want you to get a better job. The children don't need you as much especially while they are in school. Our marriage may not survive this & you need to prepare to take care of yourself financially & independent of me. A better job will also keep you off the computer & gaming."

Just an idea.....


----------



## Openminded

Sex is part of R. Or should be. You need to have that discussion.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

doublep:

boy I don't know.  she still appears to be genuinely disturbed but also knows how to pull your strings. you're choosing to stay in the same house with her, so I see nothing wriong with a little bluntness ergarding the sexuual stuff online. why not get in her face and ask her WTF if she just isn't all that sexual why was she sexual in the game? don't let her off the hook on that one...


----------



## doublep

nuclearnightmare said:


> doublep:
> 
> boy I don't know. she still appears to be genuinely disturbed but also knows how to pull your strings. you're choosing to stay in the same house with her, so I see nothing wriong with a little bluntness ergarding the sexuual stuff online. why not get in her face and ask her WTF if she just isn't all that sexual why was she sexual in the game? don't let her off the hook on that one...


This right here is what goes through my mind constantly.....
This right here is what hurts.....
I am tip toeing and dont know if I should be. Some say give her space... Others say go be blunt.


----------



## anchorwatch

Doublep, not that she shouldn't want to do anything to help you. Do you think a woman that is such a state of shame in front of her husband, could feel sexy?


----------



## doublep

anchorwatch said:


> Doublep, not that she shouldn't want to do anything to help you. Do you think a woman that is such a state of shame in front of her husband, could feel sexy?


No... You are right, that is what I think of the other 50% of the time. She has let me know how much shame she has and cries daily over it....
Yet, for me (Because I am a guy I guess) - Going all out in sex would show me she wants back in....
Crazy?


----------



## Wazza

anchorwatch said:


> Doublep, not that she shouldn't want to do anything to help you. Do you think a woman that is such a state of shame in front of her husband, could feel sexy?


The "normal" reaction to this situation is hysterical bonding. 

Barring some deep issue or trauma, it really looks like either she wants out but doesn't know how to say so, or she is struggling with feelings for someone else. Trying to think of a single case on TAM where this sort of distance has not been an indication of continuing problems, and I can't.


----------



## Openminded

She needs to step up (and I'm saying that as a female who is considering what sex means to a guy).


----------



## turnera

anchorwatch said:


> Doublep, not that she shouldn't want to do anything to help you. Do you think a woman that is such a state of shame in front of her husband, could feel sexy?


Maybe not, but she could be vulnerable.


----------



## turnera

doublep said:


> This right here is what goes through my mind constantly.....
> This right here is what hurts.....
> I am tip toeing and dont know if I should be. Some say give her space... Others say go be blunt.


Of COURSE you shouldn't be tiptoeing. WHO cheated? WTH? Why on earth should YOU be afraid of upsetting HER?! Come on, dp, at this stage, the ONLY way to keep her from doing it again is putting the fear of God in her that you MAY consider letting her stay. But you may not. 

SHE should be tiptoeing around YOU.

You clearly haven't made her fear losing you.


----------



## Abc123wife

doublep said:


> This right here is what goes through my mind constantly.....
> This right here is what hurts.....
> I am tip toeing and dont know if I should be. Some say give her space... Others say go be blunt.


When this started and up until you caught her, how many times did she deny that there was someone else? Were there messages between them right up until you caught her? 

Why would you be tiptoeing around? Have you made her come clean on everything? When it started, how often she was messaging, content of the messages, etc?


----------



## anchorwatch

Here, Chap used to post this for the betrayed spouses to print and give to the offending partner. It might be appropriate. (Hate the length)

Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.

The Sea of Stress is Difficult to Understand.

YOU BETRAYED YOUR PARTNER. NOW COMES THE FALLOUT.

They discovered your adultery. You ended the affair and promised you’ll never cheat again. But the stress from their emotional devastation lingers. And you don’t see much change – at least, not as much positive change as you expected. Many times, any visible changes are for the worse. You observe them bouncing back and forth like a ping-pong ball, moment to moment, from one emotion to the next. They’re unpredictable. There’s no discernable pattern. Their nerves are frayed. They can’t sleep. They can’t eat. Their thoughts are obsessive. Intrusive visions and flashbacks assault them without warning. They cry at the drop of a hat. They feel empty, used up, exhausted. The stress consumes their energy and their life until they feel like there’s nothing left. It’s terrible.

It’s an ordeal for you to witness their tortured, depressed and angry states, and what’s worse; you don’t know what to do. You’re not alone. Unfaithful spouses never dream they’ll get busted, so when confronted with their adultery they’re always caught by surprise; first by their partners’ knowledge, then by their intense agony. Indeed, unfaithful partners never think about what they’ll face “after” until after. The fact is: Though they inflict it, adulterers are unprepared for the onslaught of their spouses’ overwhelming emotional distress. Is this real? Is this permanent?

As you watch them sink lower and lower, wallowing in an emotional abyss, you wonder where the bottom is, when they will hit it, and if they will ever ascend from it and return to “normal.” You ask yourself, “Is this real?” Then you ask, “Will this ever end?”

The simple answers are: Yes, it is real. And, yes, it will end. But recovery takes a long time, often years, and much depends on you. Can you be remorseful, apologetic, loving, patient, empathetic and soothing over an extended period of time? Can you commit to openness and honesty at all times – and forevermore being faithful to your spouse?

Be honest with yourself: If you can’t or don’t want to get over your affair, if you don’t feel shame and remorse, and if you can’t generously provide appropriate support to your spouse, then now is the time to consider ending your marriage and spare your marital partner further pain. (If this is the case, you need not read any further.)

But if you have put the affair permanently behind you, if you feel and can freely express your remorse and shame for your unfaithfulness, and if you can commit to supporting your spouse through their excruciating anguish, then you have an excellent chance of rebuilding from this disaster you’ve wrought to a happy, satisfying, caring and loving marriage. The following is intended to help you help your partner, and in turn yourself, through this horrible time and jumpstart your journey to recovery.

So, take a couple of deep breaths… and let’s start with three foundational facts:

What you’re seeing in your spouse is a normal reaction to a life-changing event.

Your spouse needs to grieve for as long as it takes in order to recover and heal.

You can be a positive influence on their recovery.

Now, go back and reread them several times. Let them really sink in. When you can repeat them without looking, continue.

Your first mission is to learn.

Learning about your partner’s myriad reactions to your betrayal allows you to recognize, understand and properly respond to them as they occur. Doing so will help you get through
this horrible initial stage, which can last a long time.
Below you’ll find a little of what your spouse is probably experiencing. They may shift from one reaction to another, or they could experience multiple reactions concurrently. And don’t be surprised if they return to previous states many times. Where applicable, we’ve added some tips to help you to assist your partner through this. In some cases, however, there may be little for you to do except to simply “be there.”

Most importantly, remember at all times: Your infidelity has traumatized your spouse. Act accordingly.

SECTION 1 - THE WILD PATCHWORK OF EMOTIONS

DISBELIEF: They expect to wake up any minute from this nightmare. It can’t be true. They don’t believe it. This is natural. They trusted you and don’t want to believe you did what you did. It is common for this to occur in the very first moments of discovery. (Note: If some time elapsed between the discovery of your affair and the confrontation, you may have missed this when it happened, but it is also possible for your spouse to return to disbelief.)

SHOCK: They are numb and often seem dazed. Their emotions are frozen. Their senses are dulled. They go through the motions mechanically, robotically, but can’t seem to apply sufficient concentration to their day-to-day lives.

REALITY: “Oh my God. It really happened.” They feel they’re getting worse. Actually, reality has just set in. It’s as if a ton of bricks just fell on them and they’re buried beneath them. They don’t know where to turn, or can’t. Don’t discount the likelihood that they feel shamed by your infidelity. So, they may be reluctant to seek support from friends and family. Be available to them for emotional support and encourage them to talk freely with anyone they choose. Suggest therapy as a means to help them through their trauma, but never accuse them of “being irrational” or “acting crazy.” Be supportive and encouraging. Commend them for seeking help.

CONFUSION: They’re disoriented. They can’t think straight. They become impatient, disorganized and forgetful. More frequently than usual they go to a room to retrieve something, but once they get there they can’t remember what it was. This is very upsetting to them. Bear with them. Be gentle and be helpful. Help them find their misplaced purse or locate their lost keys. Know that they will eventually come out of the fog. Also be aware that their confusion, as with other states listed here, may be set off or magnified by certain “triggers.” (Note: Read more about “triggers” below.)

PHYSICAL SYMPTOMS: They may sleep or eat too little – or too much. They may suffer physical aches and pains, numbness or weakness. They may feel unusually tense and develop headaches, abnormal tics, twitching or shaking. They may feel sick to their stomach and vomit, or their digestive system may react with constipation or diarrhea. Weight loss is common. Usually the symptoms fade gradually. If these symptoms persist, make sure they check with a doctor to rule out other causes. Encourage them to eat well and to exercise – but don’t nag. You might instead take control of their diet by preparing healthy, well balanced meals. If you don’t cook, take them to restaurants where you know they serve nourishing food and, if necessary, order for them. If they’re not exercising, initiate taking long walks together. It’s a good way to ease them into a healthy exercise regimen, which is always a good stress reliever, and will provide opportunity for you to begin constructively re-establishing your “couplehood.”

CRYING: Deep emotions suddenly well up, seeking release as crying, uncontrollable sobbing and even screaming out loud. Allow them their time for tears. They can help. So can you. When they cry, give them your shoulder. Hug them. Help them through it by gently encouraging them, to “get it all out.” Be certain to verbalize your remorse for causing their pain. They need to hear this from you. (Note: Right now, genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit. That is why you’ll see many more references below. Read “Apologize” in Section 2.)

SELF-CONTROL: They control their emotions to fulfill their responsibilities, or to simply rest from the pain. Self-control can shape and give rhythm to their grieving, but be on the lookout for constant and rigid self-control. It can block healing. They need to reduce their emotional pressure to regain equilibrium. Allow them to vent when it happens. Be aware: Too much self-control means they are storing up much anger and will release it powerfully, like floodwaters breaking through a dam. So don’t be alarmed if they suddenly lash out at you, your affair partner, or even themselves. Understand that the release of anger is necessary to heal. Though it may not feel this way to you when it happens, it’s beneficial.

NEED TO KNOW: They will ask lots of questions. Their curiosity may be insatiable or it may be limited. Different people have different needs and tolerances for information, but they need information to process their trauma, move through it, and move past it.

Let them set the agenda. Whenever they ask a question, whatever they ask, answer honestly and sufficiently. Refusing to answer gives the appearance that you’re still keeping them in the dark, that you still have something to hide. Do not hold anything back. If they discover later that you omitted or hid details, or if the facts they discover don’t match the story you tell, they’ll feel betrayed once again. Follow the delivery of each new piece of hurtful information with an apology, and soothe them with another promise that you’ll never again be unfaithful.

WHY: They ask, “Why did you do this?” They may or may not expect an answer, but they ask repeatedly. If they do want an answer, provide it – and answer honestly. Even if the question is rhetorical, be aware that the question itself, rhetorical or not, is a cry of pain. And each time they feel pain, it should be answered with another apology. (I can’t stress enough how important this is.) Be aware: Even if they are not verbalizing this to you, they are still silently asking the question “Why?” over and over and over again.

INJUSTICE: They feel it’s all so unfair. You invited danger, you took the risk, but they suffered injury. They want justice and begin to think like a vigilante. They may harbour a secret desire to do harm to you or your affair partner. They may want to get even by having a “revenge affair.”
Understand that the aftermath of your unfaithfulness is an agony you have thrust upon them. Meanwhile, despite your betrayal and deceit, and the shame you feel, you and your affair partner may retain fond or even loving memories of your affair. One of my patients described her feelings of injustice this way: “I feel like a rape victim watching helplessly as the jury returns a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Then, the assailant looks at me, points his finger at me and laughs all the way out of the courtroom. How can this possibly happen?”

A sad truth of infidelity is: It is unfair. Of course, there is no “justice” that can come from this. Betrayed spouses generally settle into this realization on their own, but they need to know that you understand how this plagues them. (Note: Read “Share your feelings of guilt and shame” in Section 2. It explains the best way to help them through their sense of injustice.)

INADEQUACY: Their self esteem is shattered. They feel belittled, insignificant, and often even unlovable. Just as you would crumple a piece of scrap paper and toss it in the garbage without a second thought, they feel you crushed them, discarded them, and didn’t give them a second thought, either. So, they question their own value. They wonder if you truly love them – or if anyone could. They need to know why you now choose them over your affair partner, even if they don’t ask. Make your case convincingly. Be generous, but be genuine. They’ll know if you aren’t, and false flattery for the purpose of mere appeasement will only hurt them more.

REPEATING: Over and over again, they review the story, thinking the same thoughts. Do not attempt to stop them. Repeating helps them to absorb and process the painful reality. You can help them get through it by answering all their questions truthfully and filling in all the gaps for them. The more they know – the more they can repeat the complete story – the faster they process it, accept it and begin to heal. If the story remains incomplete or significant gaps are filled in later, they may have to start the process all over again.

IDEALIZING: Sometimes they remember only good memories, as if their time with you was perfect. They long to live in the past, before the affair came along and “messed it up.” Assure them that you, too, remember the good times, and want things to be good again. Remind them that you want an even better future, that you are willing to work at it, and, most importantly, that you want your future with them – and not your affair partner.

FRUSTRATION: Their past fulfillments are gone. They haven’t found new ones yet and don’t seem interested in finding any. They feel they’re not coping with grief “right” or they feel they should be healing faster. They don’t understand why the pain returns again and again. They wonder if they will ever recover and feel better. You can help them by verbalizing what they need to hear even if you don’t or can’t fully understand it yourself. Be empathetic and assure them that under the circumstances they’re doing okay. Remember that despite how much you have hurt them, you are still the one they chose as their life partner, for better or for worse. You may still be their closest confidante. As incongruous as it may seem, don’t be surprised if they choose to confide in you over others.

BITTERNESS: Feelings of resentment and hatred toward you and your paramour are to be expected. Don’t be surprised if they redirect much of the anger that’s really meant for you toward your paramour. This is natural. It’s actually a way of protecting their love for you during the early stages. By restricting their anger toward you, they allow it to be time-released, and only in smaller, more manageable amounts. Expect their anger to surface periodically, and give them plenty of time to work through it so they can eventually let go of it. Understand that until they’ve worked through and exhausted their anger, they cannot heal.

WAITING: The initial struggle is waning, but their zest for life has not returned. They are in limbo, they are exhausted and uncertain. Indeed, life seems flat and uninteresting. They are unenthused about socializing, perhaps reluctant, and they are unable to plan activities for themselves. Help them by finding ways to stimulate them. Plan activities for them around things that hold their interest and bring joy back into their life.

EMOTIONS IN CONFLICT: This is one of the most difficult manifestations because there is so much going on at the same time and their feelings do not always synchronize with reality. The most succinct description was provided by the late Shirley Glass, PhD: “One of the ironies of healing from infidelity is that the perpetrator must become the healer. This means that betrayed partners are vulnerable because the person they are most likely to turn to in times of trouble is precisely the source of their danger.” The inherent conflict for a betrayed spouse is obvious, but Dr. Glass also recognized how difficult this balancing act can be for a repentant adulterer: “On the other hand, [unfaithful] partners sometimes find it hard to stay engaged with their spouses when they know they are the source of such intense pain.” The key, of course, is to stay engaged nonetheless. Be supportive and remorseful, and above all… keep talking.

TRIGGERS: Particular dates, places, items and activities can bring back their pain as intensely as ever. It feels like they’re caught in a loop as they relive the trauma. It is emotionally debilitating.

Triggers can cause days and nights of depression, renew anger, and can spark and reignite nightmares, which may make them fear sleeping. Triggers can cause them to question if they will ever again experience life without the anguish. Get rid of all the reminders immediately: Gifts, letters, pictures, cards, emails, clothing… whatever your spouse associates with your affair. Do this with your spouse so they are not left wondering when those triggers may recur. Never cling to anything that bothers your partner. It leaves the impression that your keepsakes and mementos, or any reminders of your affair, are more important to you than they are.

Attend to your partner. Learn what dates, songs, places, etc., are triggers for your partner. Pay attention to your environment: If you hear or see something that you think might be a trigger, assume it is. Each occasion a trigger arises is an appropriate moment for you to communicate a clear and heartfelt message that you’re sorry you acted so selfishly and caused this recurring pain. So again, apologize and let them know how much you love them. The occurrence of a trigger is also a good opportunity to express that you choose them and not your affair partner, which is important for them to hear. If a trigger occurs in public, you can still wrap your arm around your spouse’s waist or shoulder, or simply squeeze their hand, but verbalize your apology as soon as you are alone again.

It is very important for you to understand and remember this… Triggers can remain active for their entire life. Don’t ever think or insist that enough time has passed that they should be “over it” because another sad truth of infidelity is: Your affair will remain a permanent memory for them, subject to involuntary recall at any time – even decades later. They will NEVER be “over it.” They simply learn to deal with it better as they heal, as you earn back their trust, and as you rebuild your relationship – over time.

SECTION 2 - WHAT ELSE CAN YOU DO TO EASE THEIR PAIN & RELIEVE THEIR STRESS?

Make certain you’ve killed the beast: Your affair must be over, in all respects, completely and forever. You cannot put your marriage in jeopardy ever again. Your spouse has given you a second chance that you probably don’t deserve. That may sound harsh, but think about it this way: Despite any marital problems the two of you experienced, you would certainly understand if they divorced you solely because of your adultery. So assume there will not be a third chance and behave accordingly.

This opportunity you have been bestowed is a monumental gift, particularly considering the anguish you caused them. Treat this gift, and your spouse, with care and due respect: No contact means NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND – EVER.

GET INTO THERAPY: Most attempts to heal and rebuild after infidelity will fail without the assistance of a qualified therapist. Make certain you both feel comfortable with the therapist. You must trust them and have faith in their methodology. Talk about it: If of you are uncomfortable with your therapist at any time, don’t delay – find another. And if need be, yet another. Then stick with it. Save particularly volatile topics for counselling sessions. Your therapist will provide a neutral place and safe means to discuss these subjects constructively. Every so often, think back to where you were two or three months earlier. Compare that to where you are now and determine if you’re making progress. Progress will be made slowly, not daily or even weekly, so do not perform daily or weekly evaluations. Make the comparative periods long enough to allow a “moderate-term” review rather than “short-term.” Expect setbacks or even restarts, and again… stick with it.

APOLOGIZE: Actually, that should read: “Apologize, apologize, apologize.” You cannot apologize too often, but you can apologize improperly. Apologize genuinely and fully. Betrayed spouses develop a finely calibrated “insincerity radar.” A partial or disingenuous apology will feel meaningless, condescending or even insulting, particularly during the months following discovery. Your spouse will feel better if you don’t merely say, “I’m sorry.” To a betrayed spouse that sounds and feels empty. Try to continue and complete the apology by saying everything that’s now salient to your partner: “I’m ashamed I cheated on you and I’m so very sorry. I know that my lying and deceiving you has hurt you enormously. I deeply want to earn back your trust – and I want so much for you to be able, some day, to forgive me.” As noted earlier, right now genuine, complete and repeated apologies are the best “general use” tool you have in your repair kit.

REALIZE YOUR PARTNER WANTS TO FEEL BETTER: There is so much they have to deal with – pain, anger, disappointment, confusion and despair. Their being, their world, is swirling in a black hole of negative feelings. It’s agonizing. They wish it would stop, but they feel powerless to make it go away, which worries them even more. Remember that they can’t help it: Just as they didn’t choose for this to happen, they don’t choose to feel this way. Beyond all the possible feelings described in the section above (and that list may be incomplete in your spouse’s case), even if they don’t understand them, they do recognize that changes are occurring in themselves – and they are frightened by them. As terrible as it is for you to see their ongoing nightmare, it is far worse to live in it. Periodically assure them that you know they will get better, that you are willing to do everything necessary for them to heal and to make your marriage work. Reassure them that you are with them for the duration – no matter how long it takes – and that you intend to spend the rest of your life with them.

HIDE NOTHING, OPEN EVERYTHING: While they’re greatly angered and hurt that you were emotionally and/or sexually involved with another person, they are even more devastated by your secret life, your lies and deception. They feel no trust in you right now – and they’re 100% justified. If ever there was someone in the world they felt they could trust, it was you – until now. Now, they have difficulty believing anything you say. They are driven to check up on everything. Let them. Better still, help them. Overload them with access. The era of “covering your tracks” must end and be supplanted by total and voluntary transparency.

You must dismantle and remove every vestige of secrecy. Offer your spouse the passwords to your email accounts – yes, even the secret one they still don’t know about. Let them bring in the mail. If you receive a letter, card or email from your paramour, let your spouse open it. If you receive a voice or text message on your cell phone, let them retrieve it and delete it. If your friends provided alibis for you, end those friendships. Do not change your phone bill to a less detailed version or delete your browser history. Provide your spouse with your credit card bills, bank account statements, cell phone bills and anything else you think they might wish to check. Immediately tell them if you hear from or accidentally run into your affair partner. Tell them where you are going, when you’ll be home, and be on time. If your plans change, notify them immediately.

The more willing you are to be transparent, the more honesty and openness they see and feel, the more “trust chits” you’ll earn. Replacing your previously secret life with complete openness is the fastest and most effective way to promote trust, even if it feels unfair or uncomfortable. Think of this as the “reverse image” of your affair: Your affair was about you selfishly making yourself feel good. Now, rebuilding trust is about selflessly making your partner feel safe with you – and you were certainly unfair to them. Keep in mind that eventually they will trust you again, but you must earn it and it will take time.

SPEND LOTS TIME WITH THEM: Assume that they want your company at all times. The more time you spend in their sight, the more they will feel a sense of safety, if only for that time. There may be times when you feel they’re a constant, perhaps even an annoying presence. Just remember that they need to be around you – more than ever. If they need time alone, they’ll let you know and you must respect that, too. Knowing where you are and who you are with reduces worry, but expect them to check up on you. Don’t take offence when this happens. Instead, welcome the opportunity: Think of each time – and each success – as receiving a check mark in the “Passed the Test” column. The more check marks you earn, the closer you are to being trusted again.

PHYSICAL CONTACT: They may or may not want to be sexual with you. If not, allow sufficient time for them to get comfortable with the idea of renewed intimacy and let them set the pace. But if so, don’t be discouraged if the sex is not optimum. They’re likely to be low on confidence and may feel self-conscious or inept. They may even act clumsily. This can be offset by lots of simple, soothing physical gestures such as hugging them, stroking them softly and providing kisses. You might try surprising them sexually. Try something new. Choose moments when they don’t expect it – it can feel fresh again. On the other hand, don’t be surprised if their sexual appetite and arousal is unusually heightened as some partners experience what’s called ‘Hysterical Bonding.’ Also be aware that during lovemaking they may suffer intrusive thoughts or mental images of you and your affair partner, so they may suddenly shut down or even burst into tears. Again, apologize for making them feel this way. Express that you choose them – and not your affair partner. Reassure them by emphasizing that they are the only one you truly want.

SHARE YOUR FEELINGS OF GUILT AND SHAME: If you exhibit no shame or guilt for hurting them, they’ll wonder if you’re truly capable of being sensitive, caring or even feeling. They may see you as callous and self-absorbed, and question if it’s really worth another try with you. But if you’re like most people who have badly hurt someone you truly love, then you certainly feel shame and guilt, though verbalizing it may be hard for you. Of course, some people do find it difficult to express these feelings, but try. You’ll find it provides a great sense of relief to share this with your partner. Moreover, do not fail to realize is how vitally important it is for your partner to hear it, to feel it, to see it in your eyes. It’s a building block in the reconstruction of trust and the repair of your marriage. Do not underestimate the power of satisfying their need to know that you are disappointed in yourself. Your opening up about this will help them feel secure again, help them to heal, and help you heal, too.

LET THEM KNOW YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR CHOICE TO RECOMMIT: You probably think this is obvious, but to your betrayed partner, precious little is obvious anymore. They will wonder about this. Do not make them guess, and do not make them ask. Just tell them. If it doesn’t seem to come naturally at first, it may help if every now and then, you ask yourself, “If they had betrayed me this way, would I still be here?” (Most of us would answer, “No,” even if we can’t imagine being in that position.) When people give second chances to others, they really want to know that it’s meaningful to, and appreciated by, the recipient. So, express your thanks. Tell them how grateful you are for the opportunity to repair the damage you’ve done and rebuild your marriage. You’ll be surprised how much this simple, heartfelt act of gratitude will mean to them, and how it helps to re-establish the bond between you.

HERE’S A GREAT TIP: You will find it’s particularly meaningful to them when they’re obviously feeling low, but they’re locked in silence and aren’t expressing it to you. Just imagine… In their moments of unspoken loneliness or despair, you walk up to them, hug them and say, “I just want you to know how grateful I am that you’re giving me a second chance. Thank you so much. I love you more than ever for this. I’ve been feeling so ashamed of what I did and how much pain I caused you. I want you to know that I’ll never do anything to hurt you like this – ever again. I know I broke your heart and it torments me. I want you to know your heart is safe with me again.”

These are beautifully comforting words, particularly when they’re delivered at such a perfect
moment. You can memorize the quote, modify it, or use your own words, whatever is most
comfortable for you. The key is to include, in no particular order, all six of these components:

A statement of gratitude.

An expression of your love.

An acknowledgment of your spouse’s pain.

An admission that you caused their pain.

An expression of your sense of shame.

A promise that it will never happen again

Unfaithful spouses I’ve counselled often report that this most welcome surprise is the best thing they did to lift their partner’s spirits – as well as their own.

SECTION 3 - SO WHAT ARE THE NEXT STAGES, AFTER THEY WORK THROUGH ALL THEIR GRIEF, PAIN AND STRESS?

HOPE: They believe they will get better. They still have good days and bad days, but the good days out balance the bad. Sometimes they can work effectively, enjoy activities and really care
for others.

COMMITMENT: They know they have a choice. Life won’t be the same, but they decide to actively begin building a new life.

SEEKING: They take initiative, renewing their involvement with former friends and activities. They
begin exploring new involvements.

PEACE: They feel able to accept the affair and its repercussions, and face their own future.

LIFE OPENS UP: Life has value and meaning again. They can enjoy, appreciate, and anticipate events. They are willing to let the rest of their life be all it can be. They can more easily seek and find joy.

FORGIVENESS: While the memory will never leave them, the burden they’ve been carrying from your betrayal is lifted. Given what you have done, the pain it caused them and the anguish they lived through, this is the ultimate gift they can bestow. They give it not only to you, but to themselves. Be grateful for this gift – and cherish it always.

Rejoice in your renewed commitment to spend your lives together in happiness. Celebrate it together regularly! 
__________________


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## Trickster

doublep-

What do your children know about what mom did.

Don't know if your wife should get a "hall pass" on this. If the gaming was the only thing and it was just harmless flirting, I am not sure what I would do. However when all the other things about not being sexually attracted anymore, it would be hard.

As far as I know, my wife hasn't had any EA. My wife isn't sexually attracted to me, she is not in love with me, all the things your wife said to you, my wife has said to me. We do have sex though. It feels empty, but its still sex..vanilla at best. 


Would you be OK if you wife started having sex with you again to keep you around?

Hysterical bonding? If you want to call it that. Would you believe her if she said " I Love You"


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## doublep

That is a great post and some news... Though I don't usually talk about my sex life, in this case I will (non graphically of course)....

My wife and had absolutely wonderful sex basically all night (which is hard considering the kids). It was engaging, passionate and fantastic! I flirted 1st and she took over..... We talked about the home, kids, us, the future, etc.....


Great 1st steps I think, what do you all think?


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## turnera

Sounds good. Now follow up. Next time you're free, wipe the kitchen counter off and throw her up there.


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## Catherine602

Wow, sweeeeet Keep it up. That's exactly what you need. Sounds like the norm for you and your wife is to connect physically/emotionally. Don't get anxious when she seems to pull away. Just be light and remind her that you need to depend on each other now more than ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> That is a great post and some news... Though I don't usually talk about my sex life, in this case I will (non graphically of course)....
> 
> My wife and had absolutely wonderful sex basically all night (which is hard considering the kids). It was engaging, passionate and fantastic! I flirted 1st and she took over..... We talked about the home, kids, us, the future, etc.....
> 
> 
> Great 1st steps I think, what do you all think?


Are you in the states?
Cuz...the night is still young in Texas!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doublep

Tobyboy said:


> Are you in the states?
> Cuz...the night is still young in Texas!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes... I am 2 hours ahead of you (Boston).


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## dubsey

anchorwatch said:


> Here, Chap used to post this for the betrayed spouses to print and give to the offending partner. It might be appropriate. (Hate the length)
> 
> Understanding Your Betrayed Spouse - A quick reference manual for unfaithful partners.
> 
> and so on and so forth cutting out all the length... since it's all a few posts above
> __________________


Thanks anchorwatch. 

DoubleP

This is what I was referring to yesterday. Print out all of this for your wife. It should help her understand you, and allow you to still be "strong".

Good Luck.


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## doublep

Just wanted to give you all an update....
My wife has been all over me and I do not mean just sexually. She did something she never did before, she came down in front of me and the kids and apologized for being absent for these months and realized she was not well....

She is getting help and wants to start repairing. She even took me a side and said "I do love you, more than I ever knew. I am just so scared to love so much".

She is coming back slowly, she is wanting to do things slowly again, doing my daughters hair, wants to paint my sons room, yard work this weekend... 

Things seem to be slowly coming back.
Thank you all here for helping me through this, you have meant more to me in this short time than you realize....


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## nuclearnightmare

Double

All that and you live in Boston - a real city, real community with a lot of people living there that are from there originally and have been living there for more than 3 years
......you're on a roll!


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## doublep

So everything is going well, it is.... I just have some resentment. I have some deep seeded hurt. Without being too corny, my heart is still real broken.

I take these things so intensely. I feel so betrayed in one sense and yet almost good that it was only a EA on over the internet because it has seemed to snap her out of her deep hole, or at least is pushing her upward. We painted today, she bought plants, we have had amazing sex 3 times in less than 24 hours which we have not done in years...

I just cant seem to shake the hurt, maybe I am not supposed to? Takes more time?.....


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## Philat

More time, definitely. Much more time, possibly.


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## Catherine602

R is not instantaneous. Your wife has to earn your trust and forgiveness. If you sweep this all under the rug, your marriage will never get back in shape. 

Look up R in the CWI section of this site. You case is a bit more complex because of your wife's illness. However, you should not be the one taking the brunt of the pain and being careful what you say. 

If her sorrow is robust then you should be able to express you hurt and she should be right there with you.


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## Thound

Don't forget the things you have learned here. Wear the daddy pants.


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## See_Listen_Love

doublep said:


> Childhood abuse (verbal and severe) from Step father, real dad died homeless at 41 of alcoholism... Mother didnt care about the kids and never paid attention unless she needed something....
> 
> Then her mom got Dementia 3 years ago and needed to be taken care of while she had major resentment for her for not caring her whole life for her....
> 
> Then the raid on our home 2 years ago left scars...


Well...what can you expect, as looking in from the outside in your situation....

I can understand how people in general get in trouble because of their 'learned lessons' in life...

I feel sorry for her too.


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## See_Listen_Love

doublep said:


> That is a great post and some news... Though I don't usually talk about my sex life, in this case I will (non graphically of course)....
> 
> My wife and had absolutely wonderful sex basically all night (which is hard considering the kids). It was engaging, passionate and fantastic! I flirted 1st and she took over..... We talked about the home, kids, us, the future, etc.....
> 
> 
> Great 1st steps I think, what do you all think?


Do No Think. Rationalizing is prone to errors in this area.
Enjoy, feel, live. Use it a as a bonding tool.

The analyzing must be kept separate, because if her behavior, and your new found love is genuine, that would destroy the relation.

The keeping a watchful eye on possible EA/PA must be a different part of you, just looking for eventual not fitting facts. Keep your guard, but forget about that at moments when trying to grow love together.


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## tom67

See_Listen_Love said:


> Do No Think. Rationalizing is prone to errors in this area.
> Enjoy, feel, live. Use it a as a bonding tool.
> 
> The analyzing must be kept separate, because if her behavior, and your new found love is genuine, that would destroy the relation.
> 
> The keeping a watchful eye on possible EA/PA must be a different part of you, just looking for eventual not fitting facts. Keep your guard, but forget about that at moments when trying to grow love together.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## TRy

doublep said:


> She is getting help and wants to start repairing. She even took me a side and said "I do love you, more than I ever knew".





doublep said:


> We painted today, she bought plants, we have had amazing sex 3 times in less than 24 hours which we have not done in years.


 The fact that she now says that she loves you, and is able to have sex with you 3 times in less than 24 hours, just goes to show you what was always possible if the other man (OM) was not in the picture making you the 3rd wheel in your own marraige. Even with her drinking and depression, she could have always done this if the OM was not sucking up emotional energy that she should have been spending on her marraige to you. This is why an emotional affair (EA) is so damaging to a marraige.

You have every right to feel betrayed. Her not cheating on you anymore, does not make it better, it just stops new pain. It takes years of effort for the impact of an affair to fade away. Do not sweep it under the rug and forgive too easy, if you want real reconciliation. Also remember that as an alcoholic she has an addictive personality that makes her have a hard time resisting all drugs (alcohol is a drug) including the newness/fog brain drugs that she got when she cheated with the OM. In other words, it may not be over with the OM, as she may have trouble resisting him if he contacts her in a few months (this is common). So stay alert. Good luck to you. Be well.


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## Openminded

EA's hurt. It takes a lot of time to recover. Sometimes years. Getting trust back and healing after betrayal is not a quick process. Right now you are doing hysterical bonding. It doesn't last. Be prepared for lots of ups and downs because that's what happens in R.


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## TheBaxter

You showed strength and resolve and she is responding. You caught it in time friend. But you need to get her into some kind of alcohol treatment program, or the same thing will continue to happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AVR1962

Openminded said:


> EA's hurt. It takes a lot of time to recover. Sometimes years. Getting trust back and healing after betrayal is not a quick process. Right now you are doing hysterical bonding. It doesn't last. Be prepared for lots of ups and downs because that's what happens in R.


This is so target on. We want to make it work, we want to forgive, we wait to make it new, we want to move forward but sometimes it is much harder than we ever anticipated.


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## doublep

Well, I think we've had sex every day since last week, sometimes twice. We have gone shopping, done things together, it has been great. She has been saying she loves me and sending texts thanking me and apologizing....

Doing some thinking as well and with the help of other memebers this EA is a bit different than most because it was pure fantasy (Still hurts I am not totally diminishing the effects.) What I mean is:

* It was purely in game based and fantasy
* He was a 21 year college kid stuck at home with a disability.
* No pictures exchanged or anything.
* It was sexual talking which hurts but again, no video or anything.
* He has no idea what she looks like and he sent her pictures which she didnt keep because it was about the fantasy.


Yet... I know I will feel the betrayal for a while. Our HB has been great, why is she having so much sex with me? I can understand HB from my point, as to reclaim what is mine instinctually but she is the aggressor as well, is she reclaiming as well?


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## Trickster

It sounds great doublep.
Maybe she snapped out of whatever was going on in her mind. Is she doing the sex 30X in 30 days. Didn't she do that a while back? 

She may realize she has a lot to lose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doublep

Trickster said:


> It sounds great doublep.
> Maybe she snapped out of whatever was going on in her mind. Is she doing the sex 30X in 30 days. Didn't she do that a while back?
> 
> She may realize she has a lot to lose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, she used words like "Fog" and "Coma" - She is not claiming her depression is gone of course, only that seeing me in such pain woke her up to know she loved me and wanted her family back.

Of course there is a nagging feeling inside that maybe she is just playing a game because she knows if I go, her support goes (financial and parenting). I dont think this is the case because she genuinely comes to me now, she seems to be into me like when things were good before.

Trust is now a word I keep repeating in my head.


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## doublep

Trickster said:


> It sounds great doublep.
> Maybe she snapped out of whatever was going on in her mind. Is she doing the sex 30X in 30 days. Didn't she do that a while back?
> 
> She may realize she has a lot to lose.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, we have also been having sex like crazy and extremely passionate and intimate..... Better than before.


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## Catherine602

I'm happy to hear things are going well. Hate to pour cold water on this but - seems that too many things are being sweep under the rug and minimized. It is difficult to deal with all at once but don't gloss over important issues.

You still don't know how she got herself into this or if she knows. If she doesn't understand herself, how will she know what to do next time there is a crises. Will she come to you the next time she feels overwhelmed and let you help her or will she run to a fantasy. Maybe the next one won't be so safe. 

Enjoy the rebounding but don't be lulled into a sense of complacency.


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## turnera

Aside from the sex (the #1 way to get a BH to quit harping on what a woman has done, btw), what OTHER steps is she doing to fix things?


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## doublep

turnera said:


> Aside from the sex (the #1 way to get a BH to quit harping on what a woman has done, btw), what OTHER steps is she doing to fix things?


Positives besides sex....

1: She completely stopped her gaming.
2: She talks with me more and wants to discuss how to heal.
3: She is more active in the home with the kids and house.


Things I don't like?

1: She has not taken any medicine.
2: Not seen her doctor as promised.
3: She doesn't come to me and ask me hoe I feel, or continue to apologize for the affair, its almost like it neve hgappened in her eyes... The reason I say this is because someone posted a while back in this thread that the betrayer should work extra hard to reassure their loved one to know it was a mistake and is over... I don't reallyget that from my wife....


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## turnera

You need to hand her a written list of steps you have to see before you will consider letting her stay.


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## Hicks

Sex is a double edged sword.
She knows that sex keeps a man happy and with a woman. So she is doing that. But, why did she not do that for 20 years? She didn't care about your happiness.


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## turnera

Because it gets her what she wants.


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## doublep

turnera said:


> Because it gets her what she wants.


So are you thinking this may just be a game to keep what she has?

God, 26 years I really hope this is not what it is...


----------



## turnera

How about you do this: take sex off the table for 3 months. Tell her you're doing it and tell her you expect her to respect your wishes. 

See how your relationship shakes out in 3 months without you being blinded by the sex.


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> How about you do this: take sex off the table for 3 months. Tell her you're doing it and tell her you expect her to respect your wishes.
> 
> See how your relationship shakes out in 3 months without you being blinded by the sex.



Hmmmm....


----------



## doublep

So in some of your opinions on here would these be phrases used to just say what is needed to keep the game going (honestly asking)?

*Here are things she said:*
_"I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you, even if you leave or get rid of me I will spend the rest of my life making it up or I will die"_

_"I am just so sorry, I know how honorable you are and this is the worst thing I could have done to you"_

_"What have I done??? What have I done?? Oh my god what have I done!!???"_

_"Please believe me, I am not just saying these things, I am so sorry"_

This was in the first 2-3 days....
Since then some of her talks with me....

*1 week later:*
_"I woke happy for the first time in a while, like really happy with joy. Thank you for that great talk last night"_

* Real sexual texts between us.
* Sex everyday, passionate and intense.
* Took me aside one day and said "I really do you love you, I know I dont have an easy time saying it."


I want so much to believe it... I do but there is a piece of me that does feel she is playing the game... Probably because I never thought she could have an EA in the first place, even though it was graphic sexual talk in an online game.... She still talked inappropriately with another male...


----------



## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> So in some of your opinions on here would these be phrases used to just say what is needed to keep the game going (honestly asking)?
> 
> *Here are things she said:*
> _"I will spend the rest of my life making this up to you, even if you leave or get rid of me I will spend the rest of my life making it up or I will die"_
> 
> _"I am just so sorry, I know how honorable you are and this is the worst thing I could have done to you"_
> 
> _"What have I done??? What have I done?? Oh my god what have I done!!???"_
> 
> 
> _"Please believe me, I am not just saying these things, I am so sorry"_
> 
> This was in the first 2-3 days....
> Since then some of her talks with me....
> 
> *1 week later:*
> _"I woke happy for the first time in a while, like really happy with joy. Thank you for that great talk last night"_
> 
> * Real sexual texts between us.
> * Sex everyday, passionate and intense.
> * Took me aside one day and said "I really do you love you, I know I dont have an easy time saying it."
> 
> 
> I want so much to believe it... I do but there is a piece of me that does feel she is playing the game... Probably because I never thought she could have an EA in the first place, even though it was graphic sexual talk in an online game.... She still talked inappropriately with another male...


Sounds like she's being coached or reading infidelity sites!


----------



## turnera

Talk is cheap. We don't listen to ANYTHING waywards say. We watch for actions.


----------



## Trickster

Doublep
My wife is a very good actress. After all of our discussions of her not being in love with me and sees me as a friend, not sexually attracted to me, doesn't care if we have sex or not.... Then the open marriage... It wouldn't upset her if I have sex with other women... For the last month or so, she has been more affectionate than the previous 22 years...

Although there is no affairs, she is afraid of me leaving. So she gives me just enough Sex so I don't go out looking for it.

I hope you wife woke up. For me, I will never forget my wife telling me she doesn't love me like a husband... Just like your wife, my wife acts like she never said all that...When I want to discuss it, she just changes the subject.

I can understand why people say to stop sex for several months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HomeFrontDadAndMore

Trickster said:


> Doublep
> My wife is a very good actress. After all of our discussions of her not being in love with me and sees me as a friend, not sexually attracted to me, doesn't care if we have sex or not.... Then the open marriage... It wouldn't upset her if I have sex with other women... For the last month or so, she has been more affectionate than the previous 22 years...
> 
> Although there is no affairs, she is afraid of me leaving. So she gives me just enough Sex so I don't go out looking for it.
> 
> I hope you wife woke up. For me, I will never forget my wife telling me she doesn't love me like a husband... Just like your wife, my wife acts like she never said all that...When I want to discuss it, she just changes the subject.
> 
> I can understand why people say to stop sex for several months.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

My only 'adjustment' to your comment would be to say any spouse H/W could be a good actor when they fear something is on the line (getting caught, marriage) and they'll use any tool at their disposal to maintain or recover the status quo (or to punish).


----------



## doublep

turnera said:


> Talk is cheap. We don't listen to ANYTHING waywards say. We watch for actions.


Tell me what I should be watching for?

Since hers was an online fling, it's bit tricky......
She has not used her computer in a week and the time she did I was there as we were ordering some stuff for the kids. I want to look at her I-phone.

Seems so sleazy but I have to protect myself.


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> Doublep
> My wife is a very good actress. After all of our discussions of her not being in love with me and sees me as a friend, not sexually attracted to me, doesn't care if we have sex or not.... Then the open marriage... It wouldn't upset her if I have sex with other women... For the last month or so, she has been more affectionate than the previous 22 years...
> 
> Although there is no affairs, she is afraid of me leaving. So she gives me just enough Sex so I don't go out looking for it.
> 
> I hope you wife woke up. For me, I will never forget my wife telling me she doesn't love me like a husband... Just like your wife, my wife acts like she never said all that...When I want to discuss it, she just changes the subject.
> 
> I can understand why people say to stop sex for several months.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes... The two worst things I ever heard...

1: I don't love you like a husband.
2: I am not sexually attracted to you anymore.

(FYI - Not that it matters but for the record, I am 41 and in great shape. I have been hit on many times over the years, I keep myself in shape and never strayed. )


----------



## Tobyboy

Wait a second. You haven't demanded transparency? She should be handing over her iPhone and all other devices!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doublep

Tobyboy said:


> Wait a second. You haven't demanded transparency? She should be handing over her iPhone and all other devices!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No... I just forbid her playing the game.

The reason I have not asked for more is due to the PTSD from the raid on our home, I am trying to walk a tight line. She had her privacy (all of us did) destroyed so it's a bit of a different situation.

Her PTSD is real, not imagined so I am trying to be careful. No?


----------



## Wazza

doublep said:


> Tell me what I should be watching for?
> 
> Since hers was an online fling, it's bit tricky......
> She has not used her computer in a week and the time she did I was there as we were ordering some stuff for the kids. I want to look at her I-phone.
> 
> Seems so sleazy but I have to protect myself.


Demand access to the iPhone without warning. Of she refuses, assume she is hiding something. Point this out. If she wants to do stuff to it first, then give you access, ponder what she is deleting.

She broke trust, it is not abuse to demand accountability.

What I think I see is you trying to convince yourself it's all ok, which I underatand, and at some point you have to do that. But if you don't get closure on your major doubts now, you never will.


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## turnera

She should have removed all passwords from her electronics. She should be randomly handing them over to you to check. She should have found a MC and an IC by now and have scheduled both appointments. She should be running her actions by you and letting you know where she is, who she contacts, and if anyone contacts her. That's good for a start.


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## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> No... I just forbid her playing the game.
> 
> The reason I have not asked for more is due to the PTSD from the raid on our home, I am trying to walk a tight line. She had her privacy (all of us did) destroyed so it's a bit of a different situation.
> 
> Her PTSD is real, not imagined so I am trying to be careful. No?


Oh boy. All bets came off when she chose to have an affair!!! You need to check her phone now!!


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## Chaparral

You need to check her phone and the phone bill. See if you can guess the password first though.


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## turnera

Don't confuse PTSD over an attack with wanting to keep secrets from your husband. You have the right to expect her to prove to you that she's no longer cheating. Don't set that precedent of treating her with kid gloves and letting her not be accountable.


----------



## doublep

Okay, checked her I-Phone and it's clean... I mean real clean, all her texts are from me. Her email is boring, I have access to all of them. Looked at all her apps and nothing weird on there. She never has a problem with me going on her phone though so.... I checked all contacts, deleted, apps, etc....

Her PC is clean as well.... She does not password it.

It is just the trust is gone..... I don't know if it will ever come back.


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## Trickster

doublep-

does your wife have any friends?

I am assuming that you and the kids are all she has. Maybe she woke up to that reality....

If my wife all of a sudden started saying "I Love You", I wouldn't believe her...that's me though....

It doesn't seem like there is anything else your wife is hiding. The other posters have the experience there...

IMO, Your wife was just caught up in the attention she was getting... 

Don't let the trust eat you up inside...

Enjoy your new wife...the new and improved version...

BTW... I'd have all the sex she was happily giving....


----------



## doublep

Trickster said:


> doublep-
> 
> does your wife have any friends?
> 
> I am assuming that you and the kids are all she has. Maybe she woke up to that reality....
> 
> If my wife all of a sudden started saying "I Love You", I wouldn't believe her...that's me though....
> 
> It doesn't seem like there is anything else your wife is hiding. The other posters have the experience there...
> 
> IMO, Your wife was just caught up in the attention she was getting...
> 
> Don't let the trust eat you up inside...
> 
> Enjoy your new wife...the new and improved version...
> 
> BTW... I'd have all the sex she was happily giving....


This is where I am leaning, I have gone through everything and most of all her stuff is normal.... She got caught in an online fantasy that was never going to go anywhere physically..... It hurts yes but is not as bad as most EA's or PA's....


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## Catherine602

Then how did she conduct this fantasy without your knowledge if she did not hide communications? Was it through the game?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

doublep said:


> No... I just forbid her playing the game.
> 
> The reason I have not asked for more is due to the PTSD from the raid on our home, I am trying to walk a tight line. She had her privacy (all of us did) destroyed so it's a bit of a different situation.
> 
> Her PTSD is real, not imagined so I am trying to be careful. No?


Not if the PTSD itself is destroying the relationship.

I advise to treat it like any cheating. The sexual conduct indicates she is mentally OK enough to endure you taking a strong position.


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## doublep

Catherine602 said:


> Then how did she conduct this fantasy without your knowledge if she did not hide communications? Was it through the game?


Yes... I did not play that game. Nor did I watch her play. Everything was done within the game.


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## turnera

doublep, for what it's worth, I don't think she'll cheat again. What I'm focusing on is you now learning how to lead the family. Family structures are inherently patriarchal for a reason. Learn more about that, educate yourself on how to stay strong but loving.


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## Chaparral

You need both the books linked to below, also available to download at amazon. Go read the reveiws. Mmslp is a relationship manual for men(not a sex manual). Not just friends is for you both.


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## doublep

turnera said:


> doublep, for what it's worth, I don't think she'll cheat again. What I'm focusing on is you now learning how to lead the family. Family structures are inherently patriarchal for a reason. Learn more about that, educate yourself on how to stay strong but loving.


I don't think she will either but the trust is gone. I can not help but think about it a lot. It gets in the way of my everyday thinking....


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## bandit.45

You know what doubleP, I don't think your wife really realized what was happening to her until she was up to her neck. You were strong and you laid out the consequences and at that point I think she snapped out of it. It was more of a hypnosis than a cheater's fog. 

And to accept the cold reality that she got played by a 21 year old crippled kid living with mommy? Oh man....she has got to be embarrassed and appalled beyond belief. That's why she is stuck on you like sh!t on Velcro...she knows she came to within a hair's breath of losing you.

I agree with Turnera. I don't think she will ever cheat again.


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## bandit.45

doublep said:


> I don't think she will either but the trust is gone. I can not help but think about it a lot. It gets in the way of my everyday thinking....


Make her understand she has to earn your trust back, and that means being a self starter and being proactive. You should not have to lift a finger. Your wife should be doing all the appointment setting and looking for ways to address her alcoholism. Why is she not in AA? If I was her and I e knew my drinking had played a role in my screwing around and almost destroying my marriage, I would be attending five nights a week and working the 12 Steps and calling my sponsor daily. 

Don't be quick to forgive. Down the road if she has made the changes, then you can trust and forgive.


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## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> You know what doubleP, I don't think your wife really realized what was happening to her until she was up to her neck. You were strong and you laid out the consequences and at that point I think she snapped out of it. It was more of a hypnosis than a cheater's fog.
> 
> And to accept the cold reality that she got played by a 21 year old crippled kid living with mommy? Oh man....she has got to be embarrassed and appalled beyond belief. That's why she is stuck on you like sh!t on Velcro...she knows she came to within a hair's breath of losing you.
> 
> I agree with Turnera. I don't think she will ever cheat again.


It is funny you say this because she came to me a day later crying saying to me "I can't believe I was in this, I can't believe I did this, I did everything I used to get on stupid girls for doing and falling for sh*t like this."

She would say in game he would listen and talk with her, say the right things, comfort her, etc... I sai to her: "Of course he said that, this kid has 24 hours a day with nothing to do but play games and think of ways to get women to talk sexual to him, wake up..." - When I said that I saw the light bulb go off.

In her defense, in her healthier days she would have never fallen for such a game....


----------



## turnera

You should get her to watch Catfish with you.


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## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> Make her understand she has to earn your trust back, and that means being a self starter and being proactive. You should not have to lift a finger. Your wife should be doing all the appointment setting and looking for ways to address her alcoholism. Why is she not in AA? If I was her and I e knew my drinking had played a role in my screwing around and almost destroying my marriage, I would be attending five nights a week and working the 12 Steps and calling my sponsor daily.
> 
> Don't be quick to forgive. Down the road if she has made the changes, then you can trust and forgive.


Well, there in lies a problem.. I am doing all the tip toeing and being careful with my words. I feel she should be coming to me daily with some positives on what she is doing to change.

I have always known she was not a big talker (I know a lot of women are, my wife has always been different) so I am used to it but I need more than just 2 days of apologies and promises. I am doing all the work here it seems....


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## turnera

Then stop. What do YOU have to tiptoe ABOUT?


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## doublep

turnera said:


> Then stop. What do YOU have to tiptoe ABOUT?


Heh... I can't answer that question because I don't have anything, she did the fantasy game.... Maybe because Inside with all our issues over the past 2 years I was not really there for her? Maybe in some way I let her get away form me a bit.

Guilt over my role in the raid? 

But I didnt stray, I stayed true....


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## turnera

Then stop acting like a doormat. Be mad, stay mad (a calm, quiet mad where she knows you're questioning whether to keep her), and let HER prove herself.


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## doublep

Just thought I would bring this up as well...

What is it with 40-45 year old women? Do they lose their minds during this time? First all this stuff here with my wife but I will tell you something that has happened over the last few weeks over social media...

1: Had 1 girl I have not seen since I was 14 find out I was having problems with our marriage and sent me a private message saying: "Well, her loss, let me know when you want to go out and I will take care of your needs" - This girl is married and has been for 28 years.....

2: Another girl who was my trainer a few years back asked me out on a date for Saturday as she said: "I always wanted a better relationship with you anyway, lets go out this weekend". She is married for 14 years.

3" Another girl sends a message: "Sorry to hear, if you need to f**k, there have been a lot of us waiting for you two to split."


I mean, all married, all 40-45....... This didn't make me happy or take pride in myself, this made me sad. Sad for these guys they are married to and if they even know about this kind of stuff?

What is going on out there? It is pretty terrible....


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## karole

You could always send the messages to their husbands.


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## anchorwatch

How did the word spread that your relationship was in trouble?

You? Wife? Children?


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## doublep

anchorwatch said:


> How did the work spread that your relationship was in trouble?
> 
> You? Wife? Children?


I think my sister asked on my timline how is was going with my wife... I answered we are working on it... From there it blew up....


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## anchorwatch

Doesn't take much with the speed if the internet, does it? You found that out twice now. 

Put up a pic of you and the wife, with or with out the kids, as your profile pic. Say something about virtues of a marriage too. That should deter the vultures.


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## anchorwatch

When will you start counseling?


----------



## turnera

karole said:


> You could always send the messages to their husbands.


Hell YEAH, I would.


----------



## anchorwatch

karole said:


> You could always send the messages to their husbands.


Say it!


----------



## HomeFrontDadAndMore

doublep said:


> I think my sister asked on my timline how is was going with my wife... I answered we are working on it... From there it blew up....


The whole thing is bizarre... from the leak, the speed of response to the quantity of women reaching out to you. Just enough coincidences to make me think setup.

There is a good argument to the suggestions of forwarding the "offers" to their husbands: Integrity.


----------



## Catherine602

karole said:


> You could always send the messages to their husbands.


I don't know if you should bring this kind of drama into your life at this point. Do you socialize with these women? I would avoid them in the future. The person you may want to tell at some point is your wife. You want her to be transparent, show her the way. If simulr things happen to her you want to know, right? 

Tell her and let her know you will not respond so that you don't get drawn into any extended contact and let that be the end of it. Ask her advice. If they don't get the hint when you don't answer, let your wife know. Show her the massage you will send - a short terse response not to contact you. No explanation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Just ask your WIFE to send it to their husbands.


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## doublep

I know these other women, but not like we are close or anything. I did know 2 of the 3 always flirted and wanted more. I just always kept my distance and my wife knew my trainer wanted something more with me. 

I would always have my wife come with me on my training when she could. I would try and include my wife. One time my trainer wanted to switch the training from my home to her home and I refused....

THe other woman always flirted and I ignored. I guess some people dont get the point when you dont engage them back, that means you have crossed the line.

As far as sending them the messages... I dont know, my wife does know about them but I dont know if I want that whole issue of stuff in my life right now.


----------



## anchorwatch

It's good your wife is aware of the messages.


----------



## Chaparral

anchorwatch said:


> It's good your wife is aware of the messages.


Its real good. That gives her a lot to think about. Knowing other women ARE attracted will make her more than a little jealous. I'm guessing if you were watching her closely her blood was doing a slow boil.


----------



## doublep

Chaparral said:


> Its real good. That gives her a lot to think about. Knowing other women ARE attracted will make her more than a little jealous. I'm guessing if you were watching her closely her blood was doing a slow boil.


I think she was realizing what she was going to be without, now I know that sounds vain but I mean, I work, make good money, keep in shape, I'm a good father, attentive, funny and treat my wife as a queen.... Of course I have faults, who doesn't but overall I am a good catch and that was seen by her that others were so quick to come to me....

Sadly, I can't believe they are so quick while married!? It was a bit gross to be honest.


----------



## bandit.45

It is all for naught, however, if you don't demand that she get counseling for her bad decision making, treatment for her alcoholism and treatment for her depression. 

From what it sounds like you have not made any strides in getting her to do these things. How do you expect to maintain her long term respect if you don't?. Right now she realizes she dodged a bullet and got lucky, but in six months she will forget this ever even happened. It's called rugsweeping. 

I guarantee if you do not hold her feet to the fire you WILL be back here a year telling us about how you came home early from a business trip and found her in bed with a guy, or how you found her swapping nude pics with a new guy on a secret e-mail account, or how you caught her sexting....

Don't think that would happen? Happens all the time my friend, happens all the time.


----------



## doublep

bandit.45 said:


> It is all for naught, however, if you don't demand that she get counseling for her bad decision making, treatment for her alcoholism and treatment for her depression.
> 
> From what it sounds like you have not made any strides in getting her to do these things. How do you expect to maintain her long term respect if you don't?. Right now she realizes she dodged a bullet and got lucky, but in six months she will forget this ever even happened. It's called rugsweeping.
> 
> I guarantee if you do not hold her feet to the fire you WILL be back here a year telling us about how you came home early from a business trip and found her in bed with a guy, or how you found her swapping nude pics with a new guy on a secret e-mail account, or how you caught her sexting....
> 
> Don't think that would happen? Happens all the time my friend, happens all the time.


Sadly, I now do know that can happen...


----------



## Tobyboy

doublep said:


> Sadly, I now do know that can happen...


Did something new happen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## doublep

Tobyboy said:


> Did something new happen?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, no... Just it was the last thing I thought my wife would do. Literally, I would have never believed it if I did not see the logs....


Now, I know anything can and does happen..


----------



## Machiavelli

doublep said:


> I know these other women, but not like we are close or anything. I did know 2 of the 3 always flirted and wanted more. I just always kept my distance and my wife knew my trainer wanted something more with me...
> THe other woman always flirted and I ignored. I guess some people dont get the point when you dont engage them back, that means you have crossed the line.


They thought you weren't getting the message. Most women who are reasonably attractive, and quite a few who aren't, have probably never offered sex and been turned down by the guy. It's a new experience for them, so they thought you were missing the clues.


----------



## Tobyboy

Good...I'm quoting Bandits post so you can read it again. Golden advise there!


bandit.45 said:


> It is all for naught, however, if you don't demand that she get counseling for her bad decision making, treatment for her alcoholism and treatment for her depression.
> 
> From what it sounds like you have not made any strides in getting her to do these things. How do you expect to maintain her long term respect if you don't?. Right now she realizes she dodged a bullet and got lucky, but in six months she will forget this ever even happened. It's called rugsweeping.
> 
> I guarantee if you do not hold her feet to the fire you WILL be back here a year telling us about how you came home early from a business trip and found her in bed with a guy, or how you found her swapping nude pics with a new guy on a secret e-mail account, or how you caught her sexting....
> 
> Don't think that would happen? Happens all the time my friend, happens all the time.


----------



## doublep

Machiavelli said:


> They thought you weren't getting the message. Most women who are reasonably attractive, and quite a few who aren't, have probably never offered sex and been turned down by the guy. It's a new experience for them, so they thought you were missing the clues.


Heh.. Probably true....
Seemed like the more I ignored, the harder they tried.


----------



## Marduk

Machiavelli said:


> They thought you weren't getting the message. Most women who are reasonably attractive, and quite a few who aren't, have probably never offered sex and been turned down by the guy. It's a new experience for them, so they thought you were missing the clues.


Yup, very true.

I was propositioned for a no-strings attached afternooner about a year ago by a very attractive 20-something...

And she literally didn't understand that I was saying no.

I don't think she had ever heard it before.


----------



## doublep

Just thought I would update (Not like everyone is waiting for one)... We have been doing really well, it is clear to me now she was not herself. Slowly she is recovering. The EA was fantasy driven and a way to escape.... Not right, or not minimizing it at all but I will also not make it what it wasn't.

We continue to take it a day at a time...


----------



## blackdog

Good to hear, doublep. I hope this does not sound too cliche, but things do heal with time.


----------



## Chaparral

Good luck, keep updating, hope you got t least a little help here.


----------



## bandit.45

Good news bro. Keep truckin.....


----------



## doublep

Everything is going okay....
The problem is me....

I don't know if I can get over the betrayal. I am trying so hard but it never leaves my mind. It has been a month now and I drift back to it, it drives me crazy...

There is a part of me that wants to walk away from it because I don't think I can ever trust again. I know this was not a typical affair or EA, but it hurts the same. I guess what I am saying is I don't think I can forgive her.... I am trying but the anger is still strong and the trust is completely gone.


----------



## anchorwatch

This just happened to you, it's fresh. Of course, you can't trust her yet, she needs to earn that back. That's going to take quite some time. Emotional trauma doesn't go away overnight or by itself. Most experts say two years or more... You're a step up over others, at least you two are committed and have a bond between you. You need a good counselor to guide you through it, and show you both what you need to heal. You both need counseling. 

When will you start?


----------



## Openminded

You realize this can take years, right? It could have been a lot worse but that doesn't minimize the betrayal. And betrayal can take a long time to get beyond. R is not easy.


----------



## Marduk

doublep said:


> Just thought I would update (Not like everyone is waiting for one)... We have been doing really well, it is clear to me now she was not herself. Slowly she is recovering. The EA was fantasy driven and a way to escape.... Not right, or not minimizing it at all but I will also not make it what it wasn't.
> 
> We continue to take it a day at a time...


So very glad to hear.

One word of advice: don't let her (or you) sweep this under the rug.

Everything needs to come out into the open now. Don't rush into reconciliation... you may find some very large script re-writing in the future...

Like it was all your fault, like nothing really happened, like you overreacted to a friendship, etc, etc, etc...


----------



## Marduk

doublep said:


> Everything is going okay....
> The problem is me....
> 
> I don't know if I can get over the betrayal. I am trying so hard but it never leaves my mind. It has been a month now and I drift back to it, it drives me crazy...
> 
> There is a part of me that wants to walk away from it because I don't think I can ever trust again. I know this was not a typical affair or EA, but it hurts the same. I guess what I am saying is I don't think I can forgive her.... I am trying but the anger is still strong and the trust is completely gone.


If it's gone, it's gone. Some things can be gotten past, some can't.

If you honestly can't live with it, you know what you need to do.

Are you sure? Don't make a decision out of fear.


----------

