# Sexless Marriage: It's low love, not low drive



## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I mean, you never hear...

"She seems to love me in every other way. We hold hands. We snuggle. She TRIES to please me sexually, but it just doesn't happen..."

or,

"I would REALLY like POV sex, but she just can't do it, so I have to settle on the dozens of other ways she is forced to satisfy me..."

No, sexless marriages always come with no kissing, no hand holding, no affection of any type. 

Am I stating the obvious? I would think so, but why do I always hear all of these other theories? Too much time with kids. Or "it hurts". Or my favorite, that made up catch-all disease for when you don't need to really know what's "wrong". I forget the name.

Women lose love, not a sex drive. That's why they're also called "loveless marriages"

Why am I, AGAIN, the only one that gets this? And I'm a dude.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

you're right-- it's pretty basic.

when two people like each other, normal stuff happens.

when one person is not so into the other, out come the excuses.

It's like how people avoid going to the gym. If they actually liked going to the gym, they wouldn't find a million reasons not to.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Love has a lot of meanings. I have no doubt the LD partner feels love, but it's probably more of a sibling type of love. Just like you can love your sibling, will do anything for them, and can live your whole life with them, you probably have no interest in anything sexual. If your sibling wanted to hold hands, cuddle, do sexual things, etc., you likely wouldn't be very interested. And furthermore, there's likely little that they could do to get you in the mood. For whatever reason, they don't occupy that sexual area in your brain, but you can still love and care deeply about them.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Macho, why won't you get out?
You can still find a woman that loves you. You're not dead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

...which all culminates with "rejection", the big killer...


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I mean, you never hear...
> 
> "She seems to love me in every other way. We hold hands. We snuggle. She TRIES to please me sexually, but it just doesn't happen..."
> 
> ...


Nope you are not the only one to get it. This is said over and over again on TAM but quite often men deny this because they are clueless about women's sexuality. It often gets put down to women just aren't visual, women are not as HD as men blah blah blah. 

And some women can still want sex with their spouse without much love, the bigger killer can be loss of connection and respect.

No two situations are the same so therefore no one solution is the fix all.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I mean, you never hear...
> 
> "She seems to love me in every other way. We hold hands. We snuggle. She TRIES to please me sexually, but it just doesn't happen..."
> 
> ...


My wife and I hold hands and snuggle but she has virtually no sex drive

No sex drive can be caused by physical ailments and by hormonal problems.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> No sex drive can be caused by physical ailments and by hormonal problems.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, it can. But it can also be worked around or at least talked about. And another poster was correct, there is no "one size fits all". But from what I can see, it's mostly low love drive, not sex drive.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

wilson said:


> Love has a lot of meanings. I have no doubt the LD partner feels love, but it's probably more of a sibling type of love. Just like you can love your sibling, will do anything for them, and can live your whole life with them, you probably have no interest in anything sexual. If your sibling wanted to hold hands, cuddle, do sexual things, etc., you likely wouldn't be very interested. And furthermore, there's likely little that they could do to get you in the mood. For whatever reason, they don't occupy that sexual area in your brain, but you can still love and care deeply about them.


I think in most cases, they "love" the benefits they derive from marriage (financial security, child care, housekeeping, plausible deniability should anyone question their sexual preference, etc.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Evinrude58 said:


> Macho, why won't you get out?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My personal decisions have nothing to do with anything I say on this board. It's my experience that brings me here. I feel I have a unique perspective on a lot of issues based on how my relationship played out over 30 years, and how it crashed and burned over the past 6 or so. 

My decisions are my own. My experience is shared. By a lot more men than even know yet. I have taken it as my personal crusade to tell men that when a woman says "I don't love you any more", she probably means it. And guess what guys? Even If she DOESN'T say it, it could very well still be true. The odds are pretty good even. I am HARDLY the only man in the world that had no clue that the woman I was going to grow old with, my best friend, my life partner, my soul mate, my everything...didn't even like me much.

Difference is, I found out about it. It took me 10 years or so, but I found out. By mistake. And...SHOCKER...it had nothing to do with an affair or her desire to have one. She fell out of love. Most of them do. And I'm not saying it because if it happened to ME, it must happen to everybody. I'm saying it because after 6 years on these boards, I get it now. I see it over, and over, and over...

SO MANY women falling out of love. SO many "Walk Away Wives". And ZERO young women go into this life-long marriage contract knowing it's even a "thing". Zero men going into this contract even knowing it can happen to them. Probably will. They can't prepare. They ALWAYS find out when it's too late. Why doesn't anybody GET that?

That's all this post is about.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Not entirely true. My wife loves to hold hands, to kiss, snuggle, like naked together in bed. Everything EXCEPT sex which is pretty rare. Here "sex" means anything involving either persons genitals, everything else is fine and welcomed. 






MachoMcCoy said:


> I mean, you never hear...
> 
> "She seems to love me in every other way. We hold hands. We snuggle. She TRIES to please me sexually, but it just doesn't happen..."
> 
> ...


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

I wanna hear it. How many women can honestly say something to the effect of:

"I truly love my husband as a life partner and soul mate, but something in my biology or psychology does not allow me to have sex with him. I want to, I truly do. But I can't muster up the urge. And since I can't, I tend to pull away from him. I schedule sex, but I get (insert excuse) and pull away. SO MANY ways I could just shut my eyes and let him go at me without ANY form of penetration, but I can't bring myself to do it so I turn my back to him in bed at night."

Am I making my point? ALMOST EVERY LD wife thread also includes every indicator that she's all-out of the relationship altogether. But we concentrate on the sex. The physicality part of it. 

I don't know. Maybe I'm just missing something still.


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## cons (Aug 13, 2013)

I agree MM-

WE (humans...men and women) can get pretty selfish in thinking that I should have my needs met before I can meet someone else's. 

Where's LOVE in that?

Love is a choice (an actionable choice). I choose to love my husband and meet his needs...not at the expense of myself...but to show him how he is set apart from anyone else. Sex is truly the one way in which I share an intimacy that no other will receive but my husband and vice versa!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
the natural LDs don't tend to be here. They are often not aware that there is anything that needs discussing. 




MachoMcCoy said:


> I wanna hear it. How many women can honestly say something to the effect of:
> 
> "I truly love my husband as a life partner and soul mate, but something in my biology or psychology does not allow me to have sex with him. I want to, I truly do. But I can't muster up the urge. And since I can't, I tend to pull away from him. I schedule sex, but I get (insert excuse) and pull away. SO MANY ways I could just shut my eyes and let him go at me without ANY form of penetration, but I can't bring myself to do it so I turn my back to him in bed at night."
> 
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

People don't fall out of love for no reason. A marriage is organic. If one partner thinks that their spouse is bagged and tagged, they no longer feel the need to woo and listen and build the marriage. Stagnancy is a killer of marriages.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Not entirely true. My wife loves to hold hands, to kiss, snuggle, like naked together in bed. Everything EXCEPT sex which is pretty rare. Here "sex" means anything involving either persons genitals, everything else is fine and welcomed.


Entirely true. I would hardly consider yours a sexless marriage. I could live within your parameters and be the most sexually satisfied man in the world.

OK. Call RS an exception if you'd like. To me he doesn't fit the category. Either way, it's the MAJORITY of "sexless marriages" posts I read that I'm talking about. It almost always includes NO cuddling. NO hand holding. And the death knell for me, NO kissing.

In other words, no love.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> the natural LDs don't tend to be here. They are often not aware that there is anything that needs discussing.


Their husbands are, however. It's NEVER the LD here complaining. And I rarely hear the spouse of an LD say anything that implies the wife is still in love. Something like "hey, everything else is awesome, she just doesn't like to have sex with me".

OK. Yeah, like you, I guess. In hindsight. When I read it again. So I grant you "exception" status. A RARE exception.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

How does one "love" someone while simultaneously deliberately and knowingly depriving them of basic human needs? If someone is deliberately starving you while they have food or they are watching you freeze to death while they sit on a pile of blankets, they don't love you, regardless of what they tell you or themselves. It costs nothing to meet someone's reasonable sexual needs but even nothing is far too high a price for many self centered folks to bear. You can slave away every day for 70 years for them but 30 minutes of their valuable time every couple weeks to meet your needs is too much to ask.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

unbelievable said:


> How does one "love" someone while simultaneously deliberately and knowingly depriving them of basic human needs? If someone is deliberately starving you while they have food or they are watching you freeze to death while they sit on a pile of blankets, they don't love you, regardless of what they tell you or themselves. It costs nothing to meet someone's reasonable sexual needs but even nothing is far too high a price for many self centered folks to bear. You can slave away every day for 70 years for them but 30 minutes of their valuable time every couple weeks to meet your needs is too much to ask.


Yes, this is what I don't understand.

Note: I'm not in this situation, but I've read about it too many times here...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

The LD doesn't recognize it as a reasonable request. 



tech-novelist said:


> Yes, this is what I don't understand.
> 
> Note: I'm not in this situation, but I've read about it too many times here...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Women can deeply love men and not want to have sex with them.

Women can have incredible attraction and crazy sex with men they don't love, or even detest.

Trust me on both counts, I've been on both sides of the issue.


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## jerry123 (Apr 9, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> How does one "love" someone while simultaneously deliberately and knowingly depriving them of basic human needs? If someone is deliberately starving you while they have food or they are watching you freeze to death while they sit on a pile of blankets, they don't love you, regardless of what they tell you or themselves. It costs nothing to meet someone's reasonable sexual needs but even nothing is far too high a price for many self centered folks to bear. You can slave away every day for 70 years for them but 30 minutes of their valuable time every couple weeks to meet your needs is too much to ask.


If getting divorced was easier, you'd see the divorce rate at 85-90% in my opinion. 

But it's not, you have kids, house, belongings and lawyers to deal with. Many spouses stay in the marriage because it's too damn expensive and it hurts the kids in many cases. 

The spouse puts up with lack of sex, affection. That's why if you are truly thinking of divorce you need to follow MMSLP book before it gets to that. You'll come ahead because if you follow what Athol says your mind and body will be ready for another woman to give you that sex and affection. 

If I ever get divorced I would never, never, never get married again. There would be absolutely no reason to...for me at least. 

I'm not a woman but I read a lot of stories written by them. I would surmise that a wife not giving love, sex, affection to her husband is because she is not attracted to him. He can be a great provider, great dad, great handyman, great cook but if he's 70lbs overweight and smells why would a woman let the husband stick his c0ck in her.

ETA: Thread title should read: Sexless marriage...its low attraction, not low drive. 

Of course I'm ruling out any medical problems the wife may have. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

A woman (or man) not putting out or not cooking dinner or not taking care of theirself or not holding hands, making out, or whatever is because they can continue receiving all the goodies of marriage whether they actually do anything or not. They are probably passive and lazy in about every other aspect of their life, doing the absolute bare minimum. If it was a choice between being sexual and being alone and broke, their knickers would fly off like they were attached to roman candles. As it is, they know (or believe) their needs will be met either way, so piss on your's.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Evinrude58 said:


> Macho, why won't you get out?
> You can still find a woman that loves you. You're not dead.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG THIS 1000X!! 

Macho you are one of THE most bitter, jaded, unhappy people who post here on TAM. You are still in a loveless marriage, and you are aware of it! Instead of putting it to rest, you seem to like to gripe about it instead! Why not get out and find someone who actually LOVES YOU and can help you be happy??

Now, THAT said...you really do have some helpful insight for others who come here looking for answers, you do. Thank you for sharing your experiences and trying to help. But for the love of god, do SOMETHING for yourself, you deserve to be happy!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> The LD doesn't recognize it as a reasonable request.


How would the LD partner like it if the HD partner decided to stop meeting the needs of the LD? I suspect that the LD would think that was unreasonable too.

In other words, it's "whose ox is gored", which is a crappy way to decide how to act.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

When these threads come up, it's ALWAYS the LD spouse that's to blame. When questions come up such as, "Do you still date your partner?" "Do you touch your partner other than just for sex?" "Do you listen to your partner or brush off what they say as nagging?" The HD partner seems to be OFFENDED. Why? Those are reasonable questions to ask. 

It does seem to be a trend, though huh? Mostly men are complaining about their wives being LD. Let's take a look at some reasons why:

Women were taught (sometimes still are) that it's not okay to have sex, dress sexy, talk dirty, etc from an early age. Otherwise, they're a wh*re. This very forum has had many discussions about how women who have a lot of sex are completely frowned upon by many men. 

It's been said over and over again that sometimes sexless marriages occur because the LD spouse was doing everything in the marriage, at the end of the day, that person doesn't want to do anything else for someone who already walks all over them. 

SOMETIMES, the LD spouse becomes LD because the other partner has gained weight, doesn't shower, doesn't keep up with his/her appearance. 

SOMETIMES, the LD spouse becomes LD because the HD spouse ONLY touches, talks, kisses, etc when he/she is in the mood for sex. 

SOMETIMES, the LD spouse becomes LD because the HD spouse SUCKS in bed. Yeah, I know how y'all hate hearing that. 

SOMETIMES, the LD spouse becomes LD because the HD spouse won't stop disrespecting their partner in so many ways (frequent complaints include, gawking at other women, porn, not listening, and not doing what you say you're going to do).

SOMETIMES the LD spouse is NATURALLY LD. 

SOMETIMES the LD spouse is LD due to medical/mental reasons.

So, yeah, I guess you're right. It could mainly be a love attraction/low love drive. However, since marriage is a two way street, it would be extremely beneficial to actually LISTEN to your partner (provided they even talk to you) BEFORE it's too late. Don't fart around until the LD is so p*ssed off at you that they can't even sit in the same room with you anymore. Often when it's reached that stage, there is no going back, though there are rare exceptions. 

People go into marriages without ANY sort of idea on how much they will have to compromise. For some, it's easy. For others, not so much. When people are stubborn, problems usually occur. 

**For the record, this applies to both men and women.**


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think the wide variation in reasons is why there is so much discussion. Staaarz21 has listed a bunch and they all happen - sometimes. 

In discussions like this, you don't really know the people involved so its easy to form incorrect images in ones mind about what is going on.

To answer the first part, I think that very few naturally LD people post on forums like this, so we generally hear the other side, or hear from situational LDs whos partners are not doing the right things.

Its easy for people to get offended when a comment seems to imply that they are doing something wrong when they are not. Its surely true that many men do not pay attention to their wives needs - but an individual man who does do so may be offended when someone assumes that he does not. 




staarz21 said:


> When these threads come up, it's ALWAYS the LD spouse that's to blame. When questions come up such as, "Do you still date your partner?" "Do you touch your partner other than just for sex?" "Do you listen to your partner or brush off what they say as nagging?" The HD partner seems to be OFFENDED. Why? Those are reasonable questions to ask.
> 
> It does seem to be a trend, though huh? Mostly men are complaining about their wives being LD. Let's take a look at some reasons why:
> 
> ...


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

richardsharpe said:


> The LD doesn't recognize it as a reasonable request.


Or, maybe they really aren't LD. Maybe they are PA and are withholding sex as a form of punishment.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

Nothing like a hurt man, trying to generalize why women must be all the same and just not in love.

Sorry to break it to you, I just found out I have thyroid issues and on top of that PCOS (poly cystic ovarian syndrome). I was highly upset to just learn about the thyroid issues due to finding a growth. I had issues for last few years and thought what is wrong with me? So damn you for making this about whatever happened to you and women are all out of love.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

staarz21 said:


> When these threads come up, it's ALWAYS the LD spouse that's to blame. When questions come up such as, "Do you still date your partner?" "Do you touch your partner other than just for sex?" "Do you listen to your partner or brush off what they say as nagging?" The HD partner seems to be OFFENDED. Why? Those are reasonable questions to ask.
> 
> It does seem to be a trend, though huh? Mostly men are complaining about their wives being LD. Let's take a look at some reasons why:
> 
> ...


Good post.

What I've read is that about 75% of the time when a spouse (male or female) does not want sex (appearing to be LD) it's because they harbor anger/resentment towards their spouse.

The rest of the time they have a medial issue that makes them lose their drive.

So if your spouse does not want sex with you… first get them to a doc to see if they have a medical issue. If they don’t then work on the marriage or get out of it.

Keep in mind that men are a likely to make a marriage sexless or low sex as women are. The reason that we don’t see as many women publically complaining about their sexless marriage is that women are far more likely to see a counselor to get support when they have serious marital problems. Men are apparently more likely to just complain on web forums.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I just deleted several posts on this thread that were a thread jack ... one member attacking another. 

People on TAM need to have a safe environment in order to feel safe to post personal info to get the support they need. It's not acceptable to post links to their other threads/posts and use that personal info to attack them. Basically it's a bannable offence to do this because it is a personal attack.


(Speaking as a moderator)


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

staarz21 said:


> *It's been said over and over again that sometimes sexless marriages occur because the LD spouse was doing everything in the marriage, at the end of the day, that person doesn't want to do anything else for someone who already walks all over them.
> *
> SOMETIMES, the LD spouse becomes LD because the other partner has gained weight, doesn't shower, doesn't keep up with his/her appearance.
> 
> ...


I bolded the statements that apply to me in my first two marriages. (the sucky in bed one was my first H) Of course I was unaware that these were the reasons for my LD at the time, but now being able to look back and examine what went on, this is exactly it. I was a pretty high drive person until I got worn down from being disrespected and treated like sh!t.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

pineapple said:


> Or, maybe they really aren't LD. Maybe they are PA and are withholding sex as a form of punishment.


Or control...


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

john117 said:


> Or control...


Absolutely!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I think control is by far the biggest fear of LD's more than anything else. They want to show they have some modicum of power or control over the relationship. Sex is as good as any other method.

The more I think about it the more sense I think it makes. Start with self esteem, add need to control to balance it and it gets pretty difficult to get around it.


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## CatJayBird (Oct 5, 2015)

staarz21 said:


> SOMETIMES, the LD spouse becomes LD because the HD spouse ONLY touches, talks, kisses, etc when he/she is in the mood for sex.
> 
> SOMETIMES, the LD spouse becomes LD because the HD spouse SUCKS in bed. Yeah, I know how y'all hate hearing that.


Looking back..I can see that when I was LD...these were the reasons...


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## Lukedog (Nov 18, 2015)

Add to that list the spouse that "buries his head in the sand to avoid issues" at all cost.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

I stopped wanting to have sex with my ex husband when I started to feel like a means to an end - like I was just being used while he pretended I was someone else, instead of truly desired for exactly who and what I was. We held hands and snuggled and were affectionate, and we would go out to dinners and movies and do other things together. But in order for sex to be good for him, I had to dress up in leather outfits and engage in B&D to the point that it started to feel like a simulation of rape and to creep me out. I told him I wasn't comfortable with it anymore and wanted to be with him more naturally and without props and toys - and I did this as kindly as possible, because I didn't want to make him feel bad about his obsession with this. But rather than try to meet me halfway, he just withdrew.

I realize now that we never really connected emotionally. I felt attracted to him and wanted him in the early days, and I certainly felt in love with him, but I always kind of felt like he kept me at arm's length emotionally, and that made me feel unwanted and unloved by him.

We really should have talked about this more (or some) and gotten a therapist involved early on. But I think all that would have done is brought a sooner end to our marriage. I don't think he's capable of connecting emotionally with anyone, except maybe women he thinks he can't have. Once he's in a relationship, he distances himself. He's doing the same thing now with the woman he left me for. I know because I have to interact with him on a regular basis because we have a teenage son. Between what he and our son tell me, and unsolicited by me, I see the same pattern repeating itself. Some here will recall my old posts about how he took all the leather clothes (including skirts and vests and jackets nice enough to wear in public) and boots and sex toys he had bought for me with him when he left, and then tried to feign innocence when I asked him why. A package he meant to have delivered to his house across town got delivered here last week - he must have still had my name assigned to his old eBay account because it was addressed to me - and I don't even want to describe here what I found inside when I opened it. (I order clothes and shoes for myself online, and thought it was something I'd been expecting.) I taped the box back up and pretended I didn't know what was inside, and told him I hadn't ordered anything online in a while, so it must be for him. He got all red in the face and tried to pretend it was a blood pressure cuff kit he had ordered. 

So, here he is with this woman he's only been living with for six months, and it's already all about the B&D. Who knows? Maybe she actually is into that and he's found someone with whom he's truly sexually compatible. Or maybe he's already distancing himself emotionally from this one, and this is how he does that. (He didn't suggest this to me until we'd been together for a few years.)

Don't mean to hijack - I mean to get across that sometimes the reasons we fall out of love with our husbands have something to do with them, and are not just due to a selfishness on our part or something we're lacking.

Should I have stayed with my ex after I realized we were not truly sexually compatible? Not if we both weren't willing to either try to fix it or live with it the way it was, no. But wasn't I equally duped, if not more so?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
sometimes the incompatibility is just too large. Nomorebeans mentioned BDSM and it is a perfect example. Some people enjoy that sort of play, but most don't. I would never suggest that someone engage in BDSM play unless they actually enjoyed it. If the is REALLY important to someone, then they simply can't be happy with a vanilla partner. There is no reasonable middle ground. 

I have a friend who is moving towards divorce due to this. She was OK with this sort of play early on, but it gradually became all he husband ever wanted, while for her it was something to do occasionally to spice things up.


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## Nomorebeans (Mar 31, 2015)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> sometimes the incompatibility is just too large. Nomorebeans mentioned BDSM and it is a perfect example. Some people enjoy that sort of play, but most don't. I would never suggest that someone engage in BDSM play unless they actually enjoyed it. If the is REALLY important to someone, then they simply can't be happy with a vanilla partner. There is no reasonable middle ground.
> 
> I have a friend who is moving towards divorce due to this. She was OK with this sort of play early on, but it gradually became all he husband ever wanted, while for her it was something to do occasionally to spice things up.


And therein lies the rub. So to speak.

My fantasies have always been about emotionally connecting. Talking with a man about things that matter, realizing we are cut from the same cloth, and then making passionate, intimate love with each other. I blame the movies for that.

Regardless, that's what women want - to feel like we matter. Hell, that's what humans want. It's not a gender-based thing. But we sometimes (often) find ourselves with people who are capable of seeing worth only in themselves.

If that's representative of what's out there, I'd rather be alone.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

I have to respectfully disagree with the original post. My wife loves me tremendously and I love her a great deal as well. She has always been LD, before we dated and after we dated and married. She enjoys sex when we do it, but she has no real desire. I suspect she has a chemical imbalance but they haven't identified anything. She is generally affectionate but she just doesn't get turned on.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

MachoMcCoy said:


> My personal decisions have nothing to do with anything I say on this board. It's my experience that brings me here. I feel I have a unique perspective on a lot of issues based on how my relationship played out over 30 years, and how it crashed and burned over the past 6 or so.
> 
> My decisions are my own. My experience is shared. By a lot more men than even know yet. I have taken it as my personal crusade to tell men that when a woman says "I don't love you any more", she probably means it. And guess what guys? Even If she DOESN'T say it, it could very well still be true. The odds are pretty good even. I am HARDLY the only man in the world that had no clue that the woman I was going to grow old with, my best friend, my life partner, my soul mate, my everything...didn't even like me much.
> 
> ...


I am not really familiar with your story Macho but what you have said here could have been written by me.

Up until this year, the past six years were agonizing for me. I had no clue what was happening, I could not confirm any of the red flags and I guess there was no smoking gun in the end. 

What was there? Zero intimacy. An obvious disdain when I sought to spend time together. Subtle jabs in front of other family members. Not being present during sex. Put downs about my decreased earning capacity. Ultimately it was me overhearing her BFF that she did not need me anymore. It wasn't that she said it but how she said it. It was the final blow and my heart changed.

Oddly I still love her but I do not believe a thing that comes out of her mouth. The 180 has been in effect for the past six months and it is done for nothing more than self protection. She seems to have stepped up to the plate and apparently wants us to get back to what we once were but I am not sure that we were ever anything that was real.

It has been a hell of a journey and oddly enough I am grateful for it. I have learned so much about myself. There was much I did not like and I think I have changed for me. 

So when I read that post Macho I hear personal pain. I hear the voice of someone who lost someone they thought they knew but came to realize they did not know at all. 

So in my own case it is low drive and low love. I hope you gain some perspective that leads you to a more peaceful place.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

RClawson said:


> Ultimately it was me overhearing her BFF that she did not need me anymore. It wasn't that she said it but how she said it. It was the final blow and my heart changed.



Oh my god. Someone else gets it. I can't believe this. It was...

"how she said it". 

My wife's fateful 7 words. She'd said them to me, one way or another, over 10 years of marriage. But that ONE time. After I'd come to these boards, confused as crap about what was going on in my marriage. Nothing made sense. Then she uttered those 7 words that changed my life immediately, "changed my heart". This time, the perfect mix of me reading hundreds of threads here and "the way she said it"...brought down my world.

My kick in the gut. Not too many people know about it. SO many of men's problems I read about here are because their wives bailed emotionally from the marriage. They are not in love with them any more. Walk-Away-Wives. And the dumb ass husband has no clue. He's talking about future plans in a cutsey voice and she wants to vomit.



RClawson said:


> It has been a hell of a journey...



I feel you. I lived it. Am STILL living it.




RClawson said:


> ...and oddly enough I am grateful for it. I have learned so much about myself. There was much I did not like and I think I have changed for me.



I'm a new man. Not perfect, but better. I know how to truly be a good husband now. But she's checked out for good. THAT'S the problem with WAW's. Once they're gone, they're gone. And if you choose to stay, for WHATEVER reason, you're not only denying yourself love, but you know how to do it right now. 

If I could bottle this kick in the gut...get people to read about it and understand it, I'd save millions of marriages and be a billionaire.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

If a person needs conversation in their marriage but their spouse won't talk to them about anything other than the superficial stuff like 'what's for dinner?' etc, is this also considered a loveless marriage?

What about if their need is for quality time together, but their spouse just wants to do their own thing most of the time, work on their own personal projects or hang out with other people, is this then also considered a loveless marriage?

It's said again and again all over the board, refusing to acknowledge your spouse's needs and fill those needs is how you kill a marriage and people, despite their protestations to the contrary, have more than one need, but to completely neglect one is to bring it into sharp focus.

As for LD people, I think the problem really starts if they refuse to acknowledge that their spouse needs sex. They might think that since a person can masturbate, they don't technically need another person to fill that need.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

breeze said:


> If a person needs conversation in their marriage but their spouse won't talk to them about anything other than the superficial stuff like 'what's for dinner?' etc, is this also considered a loveless marriage?
> 
> What about if their need is for quality time together, but their spouse just wants to do their own thing most of the time, work on their own personal projects or hang out with other people, is this then also considered a loveless marriage?


I would say yes, the person who does not want to engage by talking, by spending time together, etc. does not love their spouse.



breeze said:


> It's said again and again all over the board, refusing to acknowledge your spouse's needs and fill those needs is how you kill a marriage and people, despite their protestations to the contrary, have more than one need, but to completely neglect one is to bring it into sharp focus..


yep



breeze said:


> As for LD people, I think the problem really starts if they refuse to acknowledge that their spouse needs sex. They might think that since a person can masturbate, they don't technically need another person to fill that need.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Good post.
> *
> What I've read is that about 75% of the time when a spouse (male or female) does not want sex (appearing to be LD) it's because they harbor anger/resentment towards their spouse.*
> 
> ...


This is one thing that is very important, and that often times, the advice for dealing with it often misses the mark when broken down by gender lines.

The advice often plays to gender stereotypes...men are directed towards fixing the emotional connection aspects as well as their physical aspects...make sure you help out with the kids, housework, listen, spend time, keep dating her, make sure she has an orgasm, lose weight, dress nicely.

Where as the advice to women whose husbands aren't having sex with them is almost exclusively focused on the physical...wear lingerie, makeup, be more aggressive, role playing. Rarely is the focus on the emotional aspects, what she is doing that may make him feel taken for granted. This idea that men primarily want sex while mostly true on the surface, many don't want it at the expense of the other aspects of the relationship.

Quite often, we hear from women who feel like a maid and blow up doll, but there is a male equivalent...pack mule and ATM.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

john117 said:


> Or control...





samyeagar said:


> This is one thing that is very important, and that often times, the advice for dealing with it often misses the mark when broken down by gender lines.
> 
> The advice often plays to gender stereotypes...men are directed towards fixing the emotional connection aspects as well as their physical aspects...make sure you help out with the kids, housework, listen, spend time, keep dating her, make sure she has an orgasm, lose weight, dress nicely.
> 
> ...


That makes a lot of sense. 

In my case, H wanted a freakin' maid, not a wife. The sex, dating, etc. literally stopped when we got home from the honeymoon. He only asked me to go out once after that and it's when he was cheating on me. The other three times were all for concerts that I wanted to go to. I just read what I wrote and am thinking why the heck did I put up with this crap for over two decades?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I think its possible for a couple to be passionate, intimate, to share ideas, thoughts, dreams etc - and still to be kinky in bed. Possible, but certainly nowhere near true in all cases.

Also, I think there is a difference between people who enjoy kink as one part of their love lives, and people for whom kink is all they want.

I enjoy kinky play - but not at all something I would want all the time - just something to add variety. Your description of:

"My Talking with a man about things that matter, realizing we are cut from the same cloth, and then making passionate, intimate love with each other. I blame the movies for that."

Sounds great, and my wife an I do that - except for lovemaking at the end, which is much rarer.


There is selfishness an there is incompatibility, and they are different problems - but both are bad problems. 







Nomorebeans said:


> And therein lies the rub. So to speak.
> 
> My fantasies have always been about emotionally connecting. Talking with a man about things that matter, realizing we are cut from the same cloth, and then making passionate, intimate love with each other. I blame the movies for that.
> 
> ...


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

RClawson said:


> I am not really familiar with your story Macho but what you have said here could have been written by me.
> 
> Up until this year, the past six years were agonizing for me. I had no clue what was happening, I could not confirm any of the red flags and I guess there was no smoking gun in the end.
> 
> ...





MachoMcCoy said:


> Oh my god. Someone else gets it. I can't believe this. It was...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a new man. Not perfect, but better. I know how to truly be a good husband now. But she's checked out for good. THAT'S the problem with WAW's. Once they're gone, they're gone. And if you choose to stay, for WHATEVER reason, you're not only denying yourself love, but you know how to do it right now.



I definitely get it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

samyeagar said:


> This is one thing that is very important, and that often times, the advice for dealing with it often misses the mark when broken down by gender lines.
> 
> The advice often plays to gender stereotypes...men are directed towards fixing the emotional connection aspects as well as their physical aspects...make sure you help out with the kids, housework, listen, spend time, keep dating her, make sure she has an orgasm, lose weight, dress nicely.
> 
> ...


I generally agree with what you posted here... except with the stereo type you introduce at the end.

Sure some men do end up feeling taken advantage of and like the pack mule and ATM just as some women end up feeling taken advantage of.

But this does not explain many situations in which the man does not want sex and the wife feels like the pack mule, the ATM, the maid, etc. A lot of the women who post here because their husbands are making their marriage sexless are in exactly that situation.

The point is that stereo types only go so far. Relying on them often leads to people jumping to conclusions about a situation. Each situation needs to be taken as unique... that's why asking questions is important. I really wish that both partners would come here and give their side of things... what a difference that would make.

There was that couple some time ago ... the husband posted complaining about his wife being cold and withholding sex. And of course he got all the sympathy in the world and was told to dump her. 

But he left his TAM account open and she found it.. so she posted her side of the story. She loved him. But she could not bear to have sex with him because of several reasons... When he was not at work, he was in bed watching TV. He never showered, never brushed his teeth. When he wanted sex he'd lay naked in bed and would yell a her to come hop on him.

He did not refute anything he said.

People are not going to find the answer to their sexless marriages on TAM because we only hear one side of the story. IMHO, they would benefit from encouragement to get into marriage and sex counseling so that the person helping them can hear both sides of the story. And if their spouse won't go to counseling they either need to accept the status quo or end the marriage. Years of belly aching is a waste of energy.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"But he left his TAM account open and she found it.. so she posted her side of the story. She loved him. But she could not bear to have sex with him because of several reasons... When he was not at work, he was in bed watching TV. He never showered, never brushed his teeth. When he wanted sex he'd lay naked in bed and would yell a her to come hop on him."

You can't make this stuff up! And, he had the nerve to complain.:surprise:


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## 2ndchanceGuy (Sep 28, 2015)

OP, I agree with your original post, this is the problem many times. but it could be plenty of other things. 
health, stress, emotional issues, non compatibility in general, ( why its foolish to rush into marriage IMO ) 

Also a lot of people are controlling/ selfish by nature. For some it depends on how they were raised. 
The old phrase " the apple never falls far from the tree" is true for a lot of people. 

One more thing people change over time, this has a huge impact on a relationships


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that men are a likely to make a marriage sexless or low sex as women are. The reason that we don’t see as many women publically complaining about their sexless marriage is that women are far more likely to see a counselor to get support when they have serious marital problems. Men are apparently more likely to just complain on web forums.


Add to that, what man out there is going to come out and publicly admit to being LD? Lay themselves open to ridicule? Not likely.

While women are constantly told they are not going to want sex after marriage. We hear it everywhere while we are growing up.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"While women are constantly told they are not going to want sex after marriage. We hear it everywhere while we are growing up."

Must be the difference in times. The word 'sex' was never mentioned when I was growing up. I don't think I heard it until I was 17 and then I heard it a lot from my boyfriend (husband). Even now, if my mom hears the word she squirms. She would much prefer to hear 'romance'. As if 'sex' is a dirty word.


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## pineapple (Apr 9, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> "While women are constantly told they are not going to want sex after marriage. We hear it everywhere while we are growing up."
> 
> Must be the difference in times. The word 'sex' was never mentioned when I was growing up. I don't think I heard it until I was 17 and then I heard it a lot from my boyfriend (husband). Even now, if my mom hears the word she squirms. She would much prefer to hear 'romance'. As if 'sex' is a dirty word.


Sex was never mentioned in our home, either. The first time I heard my mom say sex is when she told me she tried sex on the beach. The drink! :surprise:


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## altaclara29 (Jul 30, 2014)

oh my gosh! I'd LOVE to be in a relationship where you could just snuggle and hold hands! if there is any amount of snuggling in my relationship with my husband, then there will be a boner, which then, of course, means my husband will have to do something about it, even if i don't want to, or even if there are kids in the room. or he'll get pissy because i don't feel like it. talk about a sex killer!


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Blondilocks said:


> "While women are constantly told they are not going to want sex after marriage. We hear it everywhere while we are growing up."
> 
> Must be the difference in times. The word 'sex' was never mentioned when I was growing up. I don't think I heard it until I was 17 and then I heard it a lot from my boyfriend (husband). Even now, if my mom hears the word she squirms. She would much prefer to hear 'romance'. As if 'sex' is a dirty word.


My parents didn't talk about it. They handed me a book that showed chickens and dogs doing it. At least I was in primary school I guess. I showed it to my friends, it was a hoot. I remember that I once asked my mother what rape meant and she told me it was like hitting a woman with a brick. How informative. First time I came across a packet of condoms I carefully read the instructions to find out how to put it on a penis properly. No need to talk to me, just hand me the damn manual. 

Where I heard this was on TV, comedy, society in general.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
Sometimes (and just sometimes) men who seem to always want sex will change if they get an amount of sex that they are comfortable with. If he is always getting aroused from any contact, its possible that more frequent sex will let him enjoy non-sexual physical intimacy. 






altaclara29 said:


> oh my gosh! I'd LOVE to be in a relationship where you could just snuggle and hold hands! if there is any amount of snuggling in my relationship with my husband, then there will be a boner, which then, of course, means my husband will have to do something about it, even if i don't want to, or even if there are kids in the room. or he'll get pissy because i don't feel like it. talk about a sex killer!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MachoMcCoy said:


> I'm a new man. Not perfect, but better. I know how to truly be a good husband now. But she's checked out for good. THAT'S the problem with WAW's. Once they're gone, they're gone. And if you choose to stay, for WHATEVER reason, you're not only denying yourself love, but you know how to do it right now.
> 
> If I could bottle this kick in the gut...get people to read about it and understand it, I'd save millions of marriages and be a billionaire.


So why are you still there? Why are you choosing to live your life as a punishment instead of allowing yourself to go find some happiness?


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

john117 said:


> Or control...


Sooooo...

The LD doesn't have the right to control _THEIR_ sexuality?

I mean, the LD isn't handcuffing you. If it's an orgasm you want, you have the means in which to do it yourself. 

The LD isn't "controlling" you in that regard.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Nomorebeans said:


> Don't mean to hijack - I mean to get across that sometimes the reasons we fall out of love with our husbands have something to do with them, and are not just due to a selfishness on our part or something we're lacking.


Recently I've been reading a lot of articles online about this subject. Most of the articles were written by therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists/social workers and most of them were written by men. Most had been in their profession for over 20 years and had counseled thousands of clients. 

I've probably read around 50 articles over the past few days. In almost every one (that is, there were only 2 that didn't share the same opinion with the rest) the conclusions were, that in most cases, the reasons why the woman was LD was because of something to do with the _MAN_. 

Staarz21 touched on a good chunk of why this happens. thumbup: to Staarz!) If you google "why do women stop wanting sex in marriage" you'll see a good number of staarz list. 

And yes, the LD wanting "control" DID come up in a few of the articles. This was quickly quashed by the authors/therapists as RARE, and showed that it was the HD who actually wanted control.

Just some food for thought.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Vega said:


> Sooooo...
> 
> The LD doesn't have the right to control _THEIR_ sexuality?
> 
> ...


If it's made clear BEFORE marriage, sure. Not AFTER.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
for many people the goal of sex isn't an orgasm. The great majority of men, and many women can get one quickly whenever they want. If it were the goal, the vast sex industry would not exist. 

Most people are looking for something they can only have with a human - an interaction that doesn't exist when you are by yourself.









Vega said:


> Sooooo...
> 
> The LD doesn't have the right to control _THEIR_ sexuality?
> 
> ...


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Vega said:


> Recently I've been reading a lot of articles online about this subject. Most of the articles were written by therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists/social workers and most of them were written by men. Most had been in their profession for over 20 years and had counseled thousands of clients.
> 
> I've probably read around 50 articles over the past few days. In almost every one (that is, there were only 2 that didn't share the same opinion with the rest) the conclusions were, that in most cases, the reasons why the woman was LD was because of something to do with the _MAN_.
> 
> ...


not surprising that many women blame their lack of attraction on their men.

the whole blame part is suspect though. Attraction isn't really intentional.

it could be some of these guys became truly disgusting, or it could be that they were exactly the same (or even improved), but their wives lost attraction anyway.

I'm not saying that people should not be introspective to see if they have an issue that is causing a lack of attraction.

but very often it seems that this type of search is futile. another woman (or many) might like you just fine the way you are even though your wife doesn't. Does that mean you are unattractive or attractive?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I don't know the statistics, but unless people are lying (quite possible) here and on other boards, there are a significant number of cases where the LD is naturally LD, or at least there is nothing that their partner can do to make them more interested.

I'd be interested if you have any links to studies. This is the sort of topic where you can always find examples in either direction, so getting a feel for the statistics is difficult.

In any case, as long as both exist, then both need to be discussed - or at least there needs to be enough discussion to figure out what the situation is in each specific case. 




Vega said:


> Recently I've been reading a lot of articles online about this subject. Most of the articles were written by therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists/social workers and most of them were written by men. Most had been in their profession for over 20 years and had counseled thousands of clients.
> 
> I've probably read around 50 articles over the past few days. In almost every one (that is, there were only 2 that didn't share the same opinion with the rest) the conclusions were, that in most cases, the reasons why the woman was LD was because of something to do with the _MAN_.
> 
> ...


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## Almost-Done (Mar 5, 2016)

Just going to chime in on my own personal experience. I try to give both sides, and I've been told by the original therapist, I was pretty fair in describing both sides. We married after about 2.2 years of dating. She was pushing for it, and I just wanted to make her happy, so we got married. I didn't initially see a problem, as I loved (still do) her and would do anything for her. It was good for a little bit, but as soon as the stress from work (her work) hit as well as the removal of any intimacy, the relationship started to die. Was I the greatest, now, but pretty good. Did I turn off to her a few times because we got into an argument (that she started), yes. But, when a wife refuses to allow you to go with her to a counselor, what are you supposed to do? When a wife will not go on a retreat, what are you to do? If you wife will not tell you what is wrong, what are you to do? When you wife says one thing to you about the relationship, and another thing to her friends/family, what are you to do? If your wife makes up things in her mind, which are clearly not true, tells others about them, but tells you the opposite, what are you supposed to do? If your wife will not even kiss or cuddle with you; let along have sex for over a year, what are you to do? 

I keep on playing the scenario over and over again, I see where I was distant at times (handful) due to business, but I would explain this to her after the fact, and she'd understand. However, when you ask the wife, what am I doing now to upset you, and she says nothing, what are you supposed to do? When she says, out of the blue, it was something years ago that now bothers her, but won't explain it, what are you supposed to do? So then I go into a guessing game. Was I mean? No. Did I yell or scream at you? No. Did I hit or attack you? No. Did I lie to you? No. Did I withhold things from you? No. Then what? I don't want to talk about it.

We are now separated and awaiting approval from the court on our pending divorce. This is NOT how I saw this relationship going. I thought for good and bad, forever. I guess, I watched too much television growing up. When a spouse tells you she wants unconditional love, and you give it, and it's still not enough, what do you do? Marriages, in this day and age, just ruin relationships, they do not make them better. When either one or both of the people stop trying in the relationship, then you know it's only a matter of time. Before marriage, since the person or persons are not bound by a state, there is always that chance one will get up and leave. With a marriage, it's a bit harder.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Vega said:


> Recently I've been reading a lot of articles online about this subject. Most of the articles were written by therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists/social workers and most of them were written by men. Most had been in their profession for over 20 years and had counseled thousands of clients.
> 
> I've probably read around 50 articles over the past few days. In almost every one (that is, there were only 2 that didn't share the same opinion with the rest) the conclusions were, that in most cases, the reasons why the woman was LD was because of something to do with the _MAN_.
> 
> ...


In the past, a failed relationship would be blamed on the woman. Now, it will generally be blamed on the man. There are certainly examples when both cases would have been right. 

The example given of a physically disgusting man not understanding why his wife would not have sex with him is an extreme clear cut example. It is open and shut. What about if he was clean, but just put on weight? What about a man who went off his wife because she put on weight? I imagine the response would be that he should get over his shallowness.

I was assured that my wife was probably cheating. To this day, I am confident she was not. It was not easy to make her orgasm, it would take the best part of an hour and I believed her when she said she had orgasmed with very few men. Once married, the level of effort she was willing to put in dropped and putting that much effort into sex was not going to happen. The anglo-saxon orthodoxy (for this thinking does not spread as strongly past the anglophonic world) is that it was all my fault, yet I am now single and able to have sex with plenty of women plenty of times. 

I always felt good when I went for a run in the park, but I could not be bothered that often. The difference is, if it was important to the marriage I would have had regular runs in the park. People who should be able to look after themselves become unhealthy through laziness. We see this often. In the old days, the woman would take the blame, now the man.

Edit to add: My point is not to blame women or claim men are innocent. Indeed, there are many wives with crap husband who make the marriage work through forbearance and effort. Just that cases will vary. When I moved to where I was now, I wondered if my libido had dropped, in fact I just found the women less attractive. I actually believe the vast majority of marriage can work if both partners are willing to actually make an effort. However, if the responsibility moves to one partner, then the effort will be with one partner too.


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