# Does a H have the right?



## F-102

Ladies, I need your opinion. I know that I'm opening myself up to some very harsh criticism and judgment here in the Ladies' Lounge, but I must know, even if it's what I don't want to hear.

Does a husband have the right to expect (not DEMAND) sex and affection from his W? It seems that there's legions of men saying that a man shouldn't put up with a sexless marriage, but an even bigger legion of women (and some men) who say that a H mustn't "force" his W to do something she doesn't want to do.

Now, my W won't (usually) turn me down when I ask, but is she doing it because she wants to make me happy, or is she doing it just to keep me quiet? Am I asking her to meet my emotional/sexual needs...

...or am I just another CAN (Controlling, Abusive Neanderthal) who is only thinking of ONE thing?

Should I keep asking, even though I suspect (but she would never come out and tell me) that she really doesn't like sex, or should I just "put up and shut up" and possibly spend the rest of my M without sex?


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## the2ofus

You are asking if she's doing it to shut you up or if she's doing it to make you happy. I know women and men in both categories. 

Are you taking care of her needs at the same time not just wanting your needs met? Do you take care of others needs she has, comminicating love to her in her love language? If the answer is yes your probably fine. And it may not be that she has no sex drive for instance if you are always eating with someone else and they always get hungry before you, you will probably never feel hungry (even though they may always feel famished) cause you are eating before you get to hunger.


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## melw74

F-102 said:


> Ladies, I need your opinion. I know that I'm opening myself up to some very harsh criticism and judgment here in the Ladies' Lounge, but I must know, even if it's what I don't want to hear.
> 
> Does a husband have the right to expect (not DEMAND) sex and affection from his W? It seems that there's legions of men saying that a man shouldn't put up with a sexless marriage, but an even bigger legion of women (and some men) who say that a H mustn't "force" his W to do something she doesn't want to do.
> 
> Now, my W won't (usually) turn me down when I ask, but is she doing it because she wants to make me happy, or is she doing it just to keep me quiet? Am I asking her to meet my emotional/sexual needs...
> 
> ...or am I just another CAN (Controlling, Abusive Neanderthal) who is only thinking of ONE thing?
> 
> Should I keep asking, even though I suspect (but she would never come out and tell me) that she really doesn't like sex, or should I just "put up and shut up" and possibly spend the rest of my M without sex?


I will probably get shot down, but in a way yes, I do believe a man has a right to expect sex from his wife, I do not think that is a good thing to deprive your partner from a healthy sex life.

I have to admit I do not say no to my husband when he wants it.

When it comes to affection were both very affectionate to one another, and we both enjoy lots of kisses and cuddles etc.

My husband would NEVER force me tho to do anything i do not want to do, If i am not in the mood, My husband can always get me in the mood . Yes i do it to sometimes because he wants it and to make him happy, I do not think that there is anything wrong with wanting to keep your husband happy.


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## hawx20

Sex is an integral part of marriage, so yes a man/woman has every right to expect it.

Doing it to shut you up and doing it to make you happy, to me are the same thing. I should know, I've been there. I want my wife to have sex with me because she desires me. Not because she wants to shut me up or just make me happy. 

Sure, every now and then its okay if shes not in the mood but she wants to please me. When its the norm, thats not okay. I hate duty sex. Hate it. I'd rather not have sex at all if thats all shes feeding me.


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## Coffee Amore

F-102 said:


> Ladies, I need your opinion. I know that I'm opening myself up to some very harsh criticism and judgment here in the Ladies' Lounge, but I must know, even if it's what I don't want to hear.
> 
> Does a husband have the right to expect (not DEMAND) sex and affection from his W? It seems that there's legions of men saying that a man shouldn't put up with a sexless marriage, but an even bigger legion of women (and some men) who say that a H mustn't "force" his W to do something she doesn't want to do.
> 
> Now, my W won't (usually) turn me down when I ask, but is she doing it because she wants to make me happy, or is she doing it just to keep me quiet? Am I asking her to meet my emotional/sexual needs...
> 
> ...or am I just another CAN (Controlling, Abusive Neanderthal) who is only thinking of ONE thing?
> 
> Should I keep asking, even though I suspect (but she would never come out and tell me) that she really doesn't like sex, or should I just "put up and shut up" and possibly spend the rest of my M without sex?


It will be interesting to read the other responses. Sex is an expectation of marriage. 

When you get married (in the USA anyway), you're asked to forsake all others which means your sexual options are limited as far as partners go. You both understand you can't have sex with other people while you're still married. That means going forward you have sex only with your spouse. The other side of this is each spouse is obligated to provide sex because after all the other spouse has agreed to remain sexually faithful only to them. We get married with the idea of sexual exclusivity with our spouses. Barring any abuse, disability or illness that makes sex impossible, I think it's cruel for one spouse to habitually deny the other spouse sex. 

Before someone jumps down by throat about it, please note, I'm not talking about those days we all have where we're sick or too tired. I'm talking about normal healthy folks who flat out refuse to have a sex life at all with their spouse.

Sex is part of the deal when one gets married unless you've both decided ahead of time that sex isn't exclusive to the marriage or your marriage is an asexual one. I can see why someone would leave the marriage because it's sexless. I can see how the partner who is constantly refused would feel unloved, unwanted, undesirable. That's dangerous for any marriage. If someone goes into marriage knowing they don't care about sex, they need to either not get married or get married to a like minded person who also doesn't care about sex.


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## clipclop2

By providing sex, even if she isn't into it, she is attempting to meet your need for sex. If she is doing it in the right spirit, it is a loving thing to do. 

Men get pissed about "duty" sex but they don't stop to understand that a woman who isn't into sex giving her body to her husband is an extreme act of love. 

If the man isn't appreciative of his, then the need that isn't being met is not the need for sex because he's getting sex.

That's what needs to be discussed because that's where the disconnect is. And it might be a whole lot more difficult to figure out a good solution since it will also involve addressing whatever her issues with sex actually are.

....

That said.

I didn't get married not to have sex.

If I wanted a friend, I'd have a friend. I wanted a husband. Husbands and wives have sex. It bonds us. 

A woman who marries without understanding that sex and marriage go hand-in-hand is ignorant. Same for a man -- a lot more men are opting to watch porn and M* rather than establish a relationship with their wives. Figuring out that relationship is a lot more difficult than it seems it should be, but that's just the way life is!!! We want sex and we want it to be simple. 

People are too complex to allow that to happen! ;-)


If a wife doesn't want sex with her husband but she generally likes him, she should make every effort to try to develop her sexual self and her sexual desires for her man. The man will be called upon to help her do this. In another unfortunate part of man/woman relations, men are usually too immature to know how to do this when they are young ('round about 45 they start to figure it out <g>) and unfortunately, they bumble about and end up causing hurt and driving her farther away.

Really.

It is a wonder it works out OK for anyone.

--------


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## the2ofus

hawx20 said:


> Sex is an integral part of marriage, so yes a man/woman has every right to expect it.
> 
> Doing it to shut you up and doing it to make you happy, to me are the same thing. I should know, I've been there. I want my wife to have sex with me because she desires me. Not because she wants to shut me up or just make me happy.
> 
> Sure, every now and then its okay if shes not in the mood but she wants to please me. When its the norm, thats not okay. I hate duty sex. Hate it. I'd rather not have sex at all if thats all shes feeding me.


I understand wanting to be wanted, desired (I myself am the HD) but what about there desire to see you really happy, to see you smile. There are many things I do for dh to see him smile. I love getting him favorite foods, which I don't even like, just to see him enjoy them. I get enjoyment out of seeing him smile. Now if I was getting them so he would be "happy" and not yell at me that would be a problem. With a busy life, stressful jobs and a housefull of kids, we would never have sex if we waited until both of us really in the mood before initiating. Once we start it gets going and we both enjoy. But she can't make herself desire you. You are asking something she may not be able to give, why not take what she offers.

Let me ask this question would you only get your wife a gift you can enjoy too or might you get her one for just her to enjoy.

Editing to add: I spent a lot of years thinking he should always be as desirous of sex as me insteading of receiving the beautiful gift he wanted to give me. I love to be desired (and that happens, more so when life slows down) but I also love being loved by him, it's not pity sex (that would suck) but loving sex. I don't rub his back cause my hands need to rub something, don't see how this has to be so different.


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## clipclop2

the2ofus said:


> Let me ask this question would you only get your wife a gift you can enjoy too or might you get her one for just her to enjoy.


:iagree:


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## F-102

That seems to be the problem-she NEVER initiates intimacy. If I don't mention sex, then it just NEVER gets mentioned. It is always me who has to initiate, the one who has to ask. I tried an experiment last year-for several months, I didn't even ask her...guess what I didn't get for several months?

And that tells me that she is not interested, that she thinks that sex with me is either too much trouble or too disgusting. I want to have sex with her and ONLY her, but it's getting more and more awkward to ask. And that's why I asked the question of if it's okay to expect it. I always feel like a pervert for asking, or like Oliver Twist with his bowl out "P...p...please, I'd like some more".


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## Coffee Amore

From what I recall your wife is from some Asian country, right? Do you think there's a cultural reason why she doesn't initiate? Perhaps she was raised to believe "good girls" don't ask for sex.


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## clipclop2

I don't think experiments like that are ultimately helpful. You have a point of knowledge but you have far more questions and, perhaps she has some she didn't have before as well. 

If she didn't ask you what was wrong, I'm going to hazard to guess that you guys don't talk as a general rule and rather, look for clues as to the status of your relationship. Are you both avoiders?

Here's something else -- if you always initiate and you stop initiating, why would you think it would make her initiate? That's your job. It is well established. So, if you don't initiate, you must not want sex. 

What does initiating look like? Is it a confident, "I want you, you sexy beast!" look or action or is it a child-like approach, trying to figure out if she is receptive without putting yourself on the line too much?

Well, you don't have to answer those questions. Your thread wasn't about analyzing the dynamics of your relationship. It was about whether you are wrong in what you want. 

You aren't wrong.


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## jld

clipclop2 said:


> By providing sex, even if she isn't into it, she is attempting to meet your need for sex. * If she is doing it in the right spirit, it is a loving thing to do. *
> 
> Men get pissed about "duty" sex but they don't stop to understand that* a woman who isn't into sex giving her body to her husband is an extreme act of love.*
> 
> If the man isn't appreciative of his, then the need that isn't being met is not the need for sex because he's getting sex.
> 
> That's what needs to be discussed because that's where the disconnect is. And it might be a whole lot more difficult to figure out a good solution since it will also involve addressing whatever her issues with sex actually are.
> --


:iagree:


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## F-102

clipclop2 said:


> I don't think experiments like that are ultimately helpful. You have a point of knowledge but you have far more questions and, perhaps she has some she didn't have before as well.
> 
> If she didn't ask you what was wrong, I'm going to hazard to guess that you guys don't talk as a general rule and rather, look for clues as to the status of your relationship. Are you both avoiders?
> 
> Here's something else -- if you always initiate and you stop initiating, why would you think it would make her initiate? That's your job. It is well established. So, if you don't initiate, you must not want sex.
> 
> What does initiating look like? Is it a confident, "I want you, you sexy beast!" look or action or is it a child-like approach, trying to figure out if she is receptive without putting yourself on the line too much?
> 
> Well, you don't have to answer those questions. Your thread wasn't about analyzing the dynamics of your relationship. It was about whether you are wrong in what you want.
> 
> You aren't wrong.


I want to "just take her", carry her up the stairs Rhett Butler-style. I would love for it to be more spontaneous, not "planned out". She'll be home soon, and she promised to have sex today, so I'm gonna try to "just take her".


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## F-102

Coffee Amore said:


> From what I recall your wife is from some Asian country, right? Do you think there's a cultural reason why she doesn't initiate? Perhaps she was raised to believe "good girls" don't ask for sex.


I think that may be part of the problem, but she's been in this country for 16 years, and you'd think that she'd be "Americanized" some way by now.


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## heartsbeating

FrenchFry said:


> I think my take on it is that people are allowed to form their own relationship dynamics.
> 
> If you don't want to live in a sexless marriage, I don't think you have to. But...unconsenting sex with your wife is still not okay. If that's what she wants, and you don't want that it becomes an issue of incompatibility rather than "what a wife/husband should do in marriage."
> 
> Like, ideally both people are on the same page and see either sexlessness as okay or not okay in any circumstance. But if there is a lack of agreement on that issue then it becomes an issue of "do I put up with not getting what I want out of a relationship?"
> 
> One of the things that gets thrown around on here is "what if your husband didn't work?" I can't force him to go to work/get a job. I don't have that kind of control over his body...just my own and if I can't stand him not working and he doesn't see the need to do so my best option seems to be to leave. Or put up with it.


Such wisdom ~ well said!


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## CuddleBug

F-102 said:


> Ladies, I need your opinion. I know that I'm opening myself up to some very harsh criticism and judgment here in the Ladies' Lounge, but I must know, even if it's what I don't want to hear.
> 
> Does a husband have the right to expect (not DEMAND) sex and affection from his W? It seems that there's legions of men saying that a man shouldn't put up with a sexless marriage, but an even bigger legion of women (and some men) who say that a H mustn't "force" his W to do something she doesn't want to do.
> 
> Now, my W won't (usually) turn me down when I ask, but is she doing it because she wants to make me happy, or is she doing it just to keep me quiet? Am I asking her to meet my emotional/sexual needs...
> 
> ...or am I just another CAN (Controlling, Abusive Neanderthal) who is only thinking of ONE thing?
> 
> Should I keep asking, even though I suspect (but she would never come out and tell me) that she really doesn't like sex, or should I just "put up and shut up" and possibly spend the rest of my M without sex?



When you are single, you can do whatever you want.

When you are married, you are not your own anymore and your other halves needs are now yours as well.

What this means, if wifee has the higher sex drive, hubby must make the time, be a man and take care of her needs, be that sexual or emotional, as his own. If hubby has the higher sex drive, then his wifee must take care of his needs, as her own, sexual or emotional as well.

Neither can no longer say no all the time and deny their other half. They got married and sex is a big part of the equation. If the hubby or wifee usually denies the other spouse, then why did they get married in the first place? Being married is taking care of your other half as your own, period!!! If you only take care of your needs, be selfish and single.


If your wifee is LD and really couldn't care about sex in the marriage, she is being selfish and should be single, until she grows up and becomes a loving woman. She can go to the Doctor and see if its a hormone thing, get meds if required. She can buy toys and figure out her body and how to have great orgasms and do that with you. She can take the 5 love languages quiz and show you the results, finding out each others true needs. She can do many things but being LD and not doing much about it, again, is selfish and she should be single.

I have always worked and contributed equally in my marriage. Sometimes, I made more and sometimes my wifee makes more. If one of us looses our job, we go on EI and get another job.


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## jld

F-102 said:


> I want to "just take her", carry her up the stairs Rhett Butler-style. I would love for it to be more spontaneous, not "planned out". She'll be home soon, and she promised to have sex today, so I'm gonna try to "just take her".


I bet you'll both have fun! Enjoy!


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## jld

CuddleBug said:


> If your wifee is LD and really couldn't care about sex in the marriage, she is being selfish and should be single, until she grows up and becomes a loving woman.


I doubt this attitude on the part of the HD will solve the problem.


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## chillymorn

try your best to communicate and work on intimacy and if she doesn't respond or try to compromise then decide if its a deal breaker.

tough decision.


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## nuclearnightmare

my take is like this -- my wife likes it when I talk with her, am around her (i.e. that I dont isolate myself in some other part of the house on a saturday or sunday). But what I've explained to her is that, for me to hang out with her, be around her or talk with her.....well I can't force it. I mean I don't want it to be "duty" communication...know what I mean? just can't do it unless I really feel like doing it. Unless I really feel that strong PHYSICAL connection with her....well the emotional connection is just not gonna happen. that's just how we (many of us) are. Men are just that way. we can't do the "talk" stuff unless we have the emotional connection. and I put it to my wife in just this way......"honey do you ever ask yourself whether you're doing everyhting you can physically, for me? that might make me more emotionally available for you."

so I can definitely see how it works, in the opposite sense, for women.......


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## clipclop2

That's great so long as both of you aren't predicating the first step on the other being the one to take it.

And men can too just talk without an emotional connection. If you are passionate about a hobby for instance, it is easy to be emotional about the hobby with another guy. Open up your definition of talk a bit and it might provide you some additional latitude.

Passion is very attractive.


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## clipclop2

F-102 said:


> I think that may be part of the problem, but she's been in this country for 16 years, and you'd think that she'd be "Americanized" some way by now.


So you want her to be more American? Ouch!

You married an Asian woman, with Asian values and culture. You could have married an American woman and gotten what you are asking for now (maybe). Or, you could have married an American woman and wished she'd be more like Asian women.

How about framing it like this: You'd like her to be more physically demonstrative toward you. And you are willing to ask her for what you want and to provide examples of what she can do that would please you. But you must take into account her background and be respectful of it. 

Talk with her. Open up. Take a risk. Because this isn't only about sex. And if there is some cultural component, since every culture has sex, I bet there is a way she can meet your needs (desire) without acting like a freaking American woman.

So sayeth the American woman. 
:allhail:

And I can hail myself because it is part of the culture I come from to be confident and opinionated.


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## alte Dame

I think a husband absolutely has the right to expect sex with his wife. This is such an integral part of marriage that I sometimes have to ask myself what some people are thinking when they walk down the aisle.

The issue of initiating is less obvious to me. I know many women who connect their H's initiation with their own desirability, i.e., if he's not initiating, they are not desirable. This then leads to a whole host of misunderstandings.

ETA: I can well imagine that a man will say the same about initiating, but many women are simply conditioned differently from men - they believe that men essentially are always interested in sex & if their H's are not initiating, they must not want it for some reason. A woman who thinks this way will not initiate and will assume that she isn't attractive to the man.


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## clipclop2

They are thinking:

"Yeah! I got married! That means there is nothing wrong with me. So I can check off that box."

Then some stuff about buying things like a house so you can check off that box and then something about having some babies so you can get that out of the way. Once all that is done, they can dispose of that nasty sex thing for good. 

Seriously. They are clueless and I blame their parents.


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## Catherine602

What gave you the idea that she thinks sex is disgusting? 

Having sex when your partner desires it is really an act of love. Does she get into it once you start? She may need initiation from you to stoke her sexual desire. It may be hard for her to light her own fire and then go to you. It does not mean she does not love or desire you. 

It would be nice if she could understand that approaching you maybe a few times a month? would mean so much to you. 

Getting her to initiate by asking probably won't get the desired result for you. She may do it to make you happy. 

Maybe she does initiate but it is subtle? You may not recognize because it is not overt. How would you like her to initiate? What would make you feel good?


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## Thundarr

F-102, when you didn't initiate for 3-4 months, did you tell your wife that you wanted her to initiate? What did she say? I don't have a clue how I'd react if my wife never initiated or if she shut me down.

I guess it would depend on all of the surrounding variables. Age, health, emotional trauma, non sexual intimacy, etc. 

I know you just made me get up and kiss my wife on the cheek though. She's watching some chick flick drama crap at the moment and I'm in the other room. I think that means I'd be willing to give up a lot and still want her to be here with me.


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## Catherine602

F-102 said:


> I think that may be part of the problem, but she's been in this country for 16 years, and you'd think that she'd be "Americanized" some way by now.


Her culture in the formative years is her solid core. It's covered by a gilding of the new one. The new one will never replace the old.


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## CuddleBug

jld said:


> I doubt this attitude on the part of the HD will solve the problem.



The real problem is the LD spouse starving the HD spouse of their needs and not giving a damn. That is the real problem.

Is that a loving hubby or wifee? Not at all.

Is the LD spouse making a serious effort to rock their HD spouses needs, because he or she finds them sexy, hot and loves them? If not, LD has to move on and be single.

Now what if the LD spouse needs a lot of emotional closeness. The HD spouse is sexually starved because the LD spouse couldn't care less but still expects the extra emotional closeness......maybe there might be a little more sex based on that set condition. That's bad.

If the LD spouse isn't taking care of business and making the effort out of love, not duty sex, then the LD spouse needs to move on.

Too many spouses only seem to take care of their own needs and not their other halves anymore....sad.


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## southbound

clipclop2 said:


> That said.
> 
> I didn't get married not to have sex.
> 
> If I wanted a friend, I'd have a friend. I wanted a husband. Husbands and wives have sex. It bonds us.
> 
> A woman who marries without understanding that sex and marriage go hand-in-hand is ignorant. Same for a man -- a lot more men are opting to watch porn and M* rather than establish a relationship with their wives. Figuring out that relationship is a lot more difficult than it seems it should be, but that's just the way life is!!! We want sex and we want it to be simple.


My belief as well. When someone doesn't want sex, as my x wife didn't, they try to build an argument for their side. It usually says that "all you want is sex," or "sex isn't important in marriage." But, like you, I didn't get married to not have sex, and who does? If one is not expecting a good sex life, what is the overall attraction? If I had wanted a buddy, I would have just moved in with my brother. We would have had a ball in life. I think sex es an expectation of marriage.


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## CuddleBug

I personally would never force myself on my wifee, ever. If she firmly says no, then no it is.

But if my wifee was in the mood, and pretty much forces me to have sex with her, I wouldn't say no to her and reject her because I am not my own anymore. We are married. I expect the same from her, being equals in this marriage. No one is forcing sex on each other but at the same time, we are to take care of each others needs as our own and not what we only want anymore.


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## clipclop2

.


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## F-102

CuddleBug said:


> I personally would never force myself on my wifee, ever. If she firmly says no, then no it is.
> 
> But if my wifee was in the mood, and pretty much forces me to have sex with her, I wouldn't say no to her and reject her because I am not my own anymore. We are married. I expect the same from her, being equals in this marriage. No one is forcing sex on each other but at the same time, we are to take care of each others needs as our own and not what we only want anymore.


CB, you seem to contradict yourself-if your W says no, then it's no, forget it, case closed. But if your W wants to, you feel that you CAN'T say no... but she can. Shouldn't you have the right to expect the same from her, because she's not on her own, either?

Isn't that a bit of a double standard?


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## F-102

southbound said:


> My belief as well. When someone doesn't want sex, as my x wife didn't, they try to build an argument for their side. It usually says that "all you want is sex," or "sex isn't important in marriage." But, like you, I didn't get married to not have sex, and who does? If one is not expecting a good sex life, what is the overall attraction? If I had wanted a buddy, I would have just moved in with my brother. We would have had a ball in life. I think sex es an expectation of marriage.


There's one poster whose W calls him a pervert whenever he asks her.


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## jld

I understand where you are coming from, Cuddlebug. I just don't know if that attitude will work on the LD. I am not saying the LD should not give to the HD; I just don't know that shaming her will get the job done. And I think it could bring other problems.

Honestly, with all I have been reading on sexless marriage here lately, I truly do not know what the answer is. There doesn't seem to be any consistent solution.

Not everyone subscribes to the idea of giving to one another and pleasing one another in marriage, I guess.


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## clipclop2

I think CB is more interested than not so says yes...

Or

Is afraid to ever say no lest she get mad and never approach again

Yes? No?

That's nice guy syndrome.

Since CB used boundaries to get her to step up, this might be a place that needs to be reexamined, discussed or something.

Don't want to lose ground!


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## MissFroggie

F-102 said:


> Ladies, I need your opinion. I know that I'm opening myself up to some very harsh criticism and judgment here in the Ladies' Lounge, but I must know, even if it's what I don't want to hear.Ha ha, you're scared of us
> 
> Does a husband have the right to expect (not DEMAND) sex and affection from his W? It seems that there's legions of men saying that a man shouldn't put up with a sexless marriage, but an even bigger legion of women (and some men) who say that a H mustn't "force" his W to do something she doesn't want to do.Forcing would be marital rape and is not okay. You don't (and wouldn't) do that so don't worry about those types of comments here  As for expecting it - damn yes a wife and a husband can expect it as part of their marriage agreement! The only times I would not be up for it would be if I was very sick (yes _very _lol), tired to the point of exhaustion or stressed because I was supposed to be somewhere else and it was preventing me to keep an important responsibility - eg, work or school pick-up etc...other than that I'd be up for it!
> 
> Now, my W won't (usually) turn me down when I ask, but is she doing it because she wants to make me happy, or is she doing it just to keep me quiet? Am I asking her to meet my emotional/sexual needs...It could be more of a cultural or confidence thing, conscious or subconscious. I don't mind initiating, but culturally I have been brought up that it would be inappropriate for me to do so. If I initiate and find I am told 'no' too many times I feel very rejected and totally shut off from initiating - it just went and confirmed cultural principles I have rejected for a more western set of values. It could easily be that even after 16 years that cultural lessons are still in the back of her head - it might not even be conscious!
> 
> ...or am I just another CAN (Controlling, Abusive Neanderthal) who is only thinking of ONE thing?Lol, you certainly don't sound like that!
> 
> Should I keep asking, even though I suspect (but she would never come out and tell me) that she really doesn't like sex, or should I just "put up and shut up" and possibly spend the rest of my M without sex?NO!!! Definitely don't stop asking


Obviously you don't have to answer these on here, but it might be useful to think about them yourself - other than not initiating sex does she seem reluctant, bored or dissatisfied with sex? Does she orgasm? Does she seem to be doing things to get more pleasure or lay there thinking about the ironing that needs to be done? Does she engage and put her focus onto pleasing you? If she is a pleaser she might be LD but doing what she can to please you - this is a lovely gift of love  If she seems bored or lacks engagement in it then it can't be as satisfying and enjoyable as it should be and there could be things you can try to change that so she's more into it. If you're both getting pleasure from it then maybe she just prefers for you to be the one to initiate.

I think you should think about these things and have a casual conversation about it with her and see what she says. Even if she says nothing it gives you information to go on to try to work it out.



F-102 said:


> ... that tells me that she is not interested, that she thinks that sex with me is either too much trouble or too disgusting.


Or she just likes it that you initiate and doesn't want to trouble you and is patiently waiting for you to reach for her in that way  

Does she actually say or do anything that makes you think she might find sex disgusting?


----------



## CuddleBug

The reason I never say no to my wifee, is I'm setting myself as an example for herself. I don't reject her and she doesn't reject me, see?

Definitely not a mr.nice guy.

Over the last 3+ months, my wifee doesn't reject me anymore, even waits for me naked in bed, open to oiled breast jobs, oral always to completion, etc. Due to her on going weight loss.

If my wife says no, then no its is. True.

If I say no to her, and I have......she is shocked. Like men aren't supposed to say no to sex but the ladies can!!


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## clipclop2

It is cool that you say no.

I was worried you didn't.


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## AVR1962

That a wide open question. If she does not initiate at all, waiting to see how long it will take for her to come to you might be one way to see if she is interested but you have to realize that it could be a long time as the hormone's hormones are not nearly as high as the men's.

If you are demanding by threatening her and she is still complying, not only are you damaging your marriage but if she is complying to keep you happy she is damaging herself. I am not saying you are doing this. My first husband did this and I would just accept his advancements to keep him happy and wish it to be over. 

if you can talk to her that's best. If she feels all you want from her is sex, she might be real receptive to conversation.


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## F-102

Yes, I do think that her cultural upbringing has much to do with it. I her country, well, good girls don't.

But, it may also have to do with the love language. She is DEFINITELY an "Act of Service" type, and in her culture, that's exactly what a good W and mother does. And I do agree, that simply by agreeing to sex without an argument, she is, in her way, going that extra mile as an act of love to me. 

But, there is something more sinister here: that is, MY upbringing. I was raised to not be a burden to anyone. I would get punished for asking for things, for "bothering" people with my problems and was told repeatedly by my parents that they "didn't have time" for me. I was even forbidden from going into friends' houses, because, as my mother would say: "They don't want to put up with you." Once, one friend's mother invited me in, and I tried to object, saying that I didn't want to cause any trouble. She said nonsense, and insisted that I come inside to play. So I did, and my mother saw me coming out of the house later. I was punished (physically) and grounded for the rest of the summer.

So, I learned. My problems weren't important and that under no circumstances was I to bother people.

Later on, in my teen years, I learned again...that secrets and lies were the norm in my family. My mother would constantly hide the bills or make up lies for my sister (the rebellious one) because she "Didn't want to hear dad's sh*t." And when it came to my younger brother (drama king who demanded to be the center of attention 24-7), it became a full time job (usually mine) to keep him quiet and out of dad's hair.

So, I learned. People don't do things because they think that one might appreciate them or out of love. They do things to prevent another blow up. They do "nice" things to keep someone quiet.

Now, I had enough of a sense of self determination to know that I wasn't going to subject my own family to that, and I don't. My D and I have a wonderful rapport, she and I talk about everything. And I don't play mind games with my W...everything is out in the open.

But, every now and then, those echoes from the past come back to haunt me: "Don't cause trouble!" "Nobody wants to hear about your problems!" "Keep things quiet!"

And that's why I ask the question if a H has the right: are they legitimate requests, or does a H who asks just sound like that troublesome little kid?

Do wives give their H sex because they love them, or are they just "keeping them quiet"?


----------



## Tall Average Guy

alte Dame said:


> ETA: I can well imagine that a man will say the same about initiating, but many women are simply conditioned differently from men - they believe that men essentially are always interested in sex & if their H's are not initiating, they must not want it for some reason. A woman who thinks this way will not initiate and will assume that she isn't attractive to the man.


While true, I think that folks need to remember that many women initiate differently. In some sense, it is more like an invitation. Body language, touches, flirting, are very often a woman signalling her interest. 

It really hit me once, when after an evening of her doing that and then some fantastic sex, my wife afterward mentioned looking forward to this all evening. In her language, she was throwing herself at me. Now that I am more fluent in her language, I am better at hearing her.


----------



## Tall Average Guy

F-102 said:


> Do wives give their H sex because they love them, or are they just "keeping them quiet"?


Could you accept that it could be both at times? That she loves you, wants you happy, knows that going with out will affect your mood and connection with her, and that she does so not because she wants sex, but because she wants to keep the marriage in a good place? Because in one sense, keeping you happy and keeping you quiet can be close to the same.


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## F-102

Tall Average Guy said:


> Could you accept that it could be both at times? That she loves you, wants you happy, knows that going with out will affect your mood and connection with her, and that she does so not because she wants sex, but because she wants to keep the marriage in a good place? Because in one sense, keeping you happy and keeping you quiet can be close to the same.


I don't know, TAG. I understand what you're saying, and why a spouse would want to put their spouse's mind at ease, but "keeping one quiet" has negative connotations for me, i.e., one resents and even hates what they have to do in order to "keep one quiet", but they had damn well better, lest the gates of hell open up.


----------



## MissFroggie

F-102 said:


> Yes, I do think that her cultural upbringing has much to do with it. I her country, well, good girls don't.
> 
> But, it may also have to do with the love language. She is DEFINITELY an "Act of Service" type, and in her culture, that's exactly what a good W and mother does. And I do agree, that simply by agreeing to sex without an argument, she is, in her way, going that extra mile as an act of love to me.
> 
> But, there is something more sinister here: that is, MY upbringing. I was raised to not be a burden to anyone. I would get punished for asking for things, for "bothering" people with my problems and was told repeatedly by my parents that they "didn't have time" for me. I was even forbidden from going into friends' houses, because, as my mother would say: "They don't want to put up with you." Once, one friend's mother invited me in, and I tried to object, saying that I didn't want to cause any trouble. She said nonsense, and insisted that I come inside to play. So I did, and my mother saw me coming out of the house later. I was punished (physically) and grounded for the rest of the summer.
> 
> So, I learned. My problems weren't important and that under no circumstances was I to bother people.
> 
> Later on, in my teen years, I learned again...that secrets and lies were the norm in my family. My mother would constantly hide the bills or make up lies for my sister (the rebellious one) because she "Didn't want to hear dad's sh*t." And when it came to my younger brother (drama king who demanded to be the center of attention 24-7), it became a full time job (usually mine) to keep him quiet and out of dad's hair.
> 
> So, I learned. People don't do things because they think that one might appreciate them or out of love. They do things to prevent another blow up. They do "nice" things to keep someone quiet.
> 
> Now, I had enough of a sense of self determination to know that I wasn't going to subject my own family to that, and I don't. My D and I have a wonderful rapport, she and I talk about everything. And I don't play mind games with my W...everything is out in the open.
> 
> But, every now and then, those echoes from the past come back to haunt me: "Don't cause trouble!" "Nobody wants to hear about your problems!" "Keep things quiet!"
> 
> And that's why I ask the question if a H has the right: are they legitimate requests, or does a H who asks just sound like that troublesome little kid?
> 
> Do wives give their H sex because they love them, or are they just "keeping them quiet"?


What you've said about your upbringing is really sad. You are not a burden and people invite you into their homes because they like you being there. It's really hurtful when parents teach you that you are in the way. Mine were like that too and it really hurts self-esteem and makes us question people's motives a lot more than we should. For a long time I thought if I won competitions it was because the judges felt sorry for me, all because that's what my mum told me the first time I won a dance competition. I even thought it when I was being hired for work and chosen in auditions...it told a friend how I felt and was confronted with the reality of , "Why would they do that when it costs them so much money?". It made no sense to think it was pity.

Your wife's language of love is 'acts of service', same as mine and she LOVES doing things for you to make you happy  Even IF this is an act of service (it might still be cultural too - feeling that initiating is not her place) it is definitely not repulsive to her and it is something she LOVES to give you and share with you. It really doesn't have any negative connotations at all...because she loves you and it makes her feel good to give to you  As for 'keeping one quiet' well I think it is more 'keeping one content'. It's not about shutting someone up or giving in to asking, it's about giving someone you love what they want and need to feel content and happy and good. For someone who is 'acts of service' being able to fulfill a need or want of a partner makes us feel fantastic


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## clipclop2

"Do wives give their H sex because they love them, or are they just "keeping them quiet"? "

You'll have to be more explicit in your description of sex for me to answer. ;-)


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## Tall Average Guy

F-102 said:


> I don't know, TAG. I understand what you're saying, and why a spouse would want to put their spouse's mind at ease, but "keeping one quiet" has negative connotations for me, i.e., one resents and even hates what they have to do in order to "keep one quiet", but they had damn well better, lest the gates of hell open up.


What about the idea that "keeping you quiet" means something different to her than it does to you? That the motivations and baggage from your childhood are not there with your wife?


----------



## lenzi

You directed your post at the female population of this forum, and I can't help but wonder why you think women are more qualified to answer this question than men? Simply because they have the same set of genital organs they are somehow better able to provide the correct answer? As if there even is one. 

What's interesting about this thread is that the title of the thread has nothing to do with the subject of the first post.

Look here: Op is asking about the right to expect sex:



F-102 said:


> Does a husband have the right to expect (not DEMAND) sex and affection from his W?


Then the bulk of the subject matter is in fact in regards to_ why she's giving him sex _not_ whether or not he's got the right to get it. _It's obvious that he IS getting it, regardless of whether there's an inherent obligation on the part of the wife:



F-102 said:


> Now, my W won't (usually) turn me down when I ask, but is she doing it because she wants to make me happy, or is she doing it just to keep me quiet?


Then we take a new direction, where the Op is wondering if he should keep asking, even though he suspects she's not the least bit interested in having sex:



F-102 said:


> Should I keep asking, even though I suspect (but she would never come out and tell me) that she really doesn't like sex, or should I just "put up and shut up" and possibly spend the rest of my M without sex?


Threads like this make me wonder, well actually they seem to make me fairly certain that some people are unable to communicate effectively, and perhaps that's the deeper issue in this relationship and may in fact be why wife isn't interested in having sex. It happens all the time. Women are all about communication. If they don't get it, the sex is one of the first things that goes away.


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## clipclop2

If you read the entire thread you will find we covered those points.


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## Coffee Amore

clipclop2 said:


> If you read the entire thread you will find we covered those points.


Agreed. Not only that there are cultural issues at play in this marriage. His wife was born and raised in a different country, so a more nuanced approach than "leave her, bro" is needed. Sometimes mansplaining isn't what's needed. A woman's perspective can shed a lot of light on why a wife is acting a certain way.



Tall Average Guy said:


> What about the idea that "keeping you quiet" means something different to her than it does to you? That the motivations and baggage from your childhood are not there with your wife?


:iagree:

His wife doesn't have the same childhood baggage. Being quiet is probably a good thing in her Asian culture.


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## Thundarr

I just worked all day putting down hard wood flooring for my mother-in-law. Kill me now. My back and knees are aching.

I fully expect to be propositioned tomorrow. I may put out.


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## Catherine602

:lol::lol::lol:


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## F-102

Lenzi, I had seriously considered posting this in the Men's section (and I still may), but I want to know wives' opinions first. I just thought that posting this in the men's would get me some not-so-serious answers, or that posting in the GR or SIM section would be a waste of time because no one (men especially) would touch it with a ten foot pole.

But I think that I will post in the MC soon.


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## clipclop2

If you want, I'll ask Mach to draw some diagrams and punch a few numbers into an equation and we'll have it all sorted out no problem!


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## F-102

MissFroggie said:


> What you've said about your upbringing is really sad. You are not a burden and people invite you into their homes because they like you being there. It's really hurtful when parents teach you that you are in the way. Mine were like that too and it really hurts self-esteem and makes us question people's motives a lot more than we should. For a long time I thought if I won competitions it was because the judges felt sorry for me, all because that's what my mum told me the first time I won a dance competition. I even thought it when I was being hired for work and chosen in auditions...it told a friend how I felt and was confronted with the reality of , "Why would they do that when it costs them so much money?". It made no sense to think it was pity.
> 
> Your wife's language of love is 'acts of service', same as mine and she LOVES doing things for you to make you happy  Even IF this is an act of service (it might still be cultural too - feeling that initiating is not her place) it is definitely not repulsive to her and it is something she LOVES to give you and share with you. It really doesn't have any negative connotations at all...because she loves you and it makes her feel good to give to you  As for 'keeping one quiet' well I think it is more 'keeping one content'. It's not about shutting someone up or giving in to asking, it's about giving someone you love what they want and need to feel content and happy and good. For someone who is 'acts of service' being able to fulfill a need or want of a partner makes us feel fantastic


I agree, Missfroggie. It does make one question others' motives and causes one to seriously question whether they are "good enough" to deserve affection.


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## Vega

F-102 said:


> Does a husband have the right to expect (not DEMAND) sex and affection from his W?


From a _legal_ standpoint (and marriage IS a legal matter), there is a _minimum_ amount of sex that IS expected in a marriage. 

Some states provide for a 'ground' for divorce for the _lack_ of sex called 'constructive abandonment'. Constructive abandonment means (to paraphrase in a nutshell) that your spouse has refused to have sex with you (sans medical or other legitimate reasons) despite your repeated requests, for a period of a year or more. If you have sex with your spouse even a handful of times in that year (such as, once every 3 months), you probably would NOT be able to use the ground of constructive abandonment in order to obtain a divorce. 

So basically, you have the right to expect the _minimum_ amount of sex (plus, there's nothing that provides for WHAT KIND of sex you can expect.) The minimum would be your 'duty sex'. Any more sex that you get that's more than a handful of times per year would be icing on the cake. 

IMHO, we can't make sex a 'duty' of marriage _and then complain _when our spouse 'gives' it to us out of duty!

Vega


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## F-102

Back again...been way too busy lately.

One thing that stands out is hearing about other women who can't stand having sex with their H. Once, I was reading a Dear Abby-type column, and it was a middle aged W who started out her letter that her H had told her, out of the blue, that he was no longer interested in sex with her. I went on reading, thinking that she'd be asking how to get his affections again, what she did to turn him off, etc.

But then she went on saying that she wished he had said that 10 years ago, that she HATED sex and couldn't stand pleasing him, but only did it to "keep him quiet", then kept on going that sex is degrading to women, that all men are pigs who only want one thing, yada yada yada...

I just can't help but wonder, is that the way it REALLY is?


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## F-102

clipclop2 said:


> I don't think experiments like that are ultimately helpful. You have a point of knowledge but you have far more questions and, perhaps she has some she didn't have before as well.
> 
> If she didn't ask you what was wrong, I'm going to hazard to guess that you guys don't talk as a general rule and rather, look for clues as to the status of your relationship. Are you both avoiders?
> 
> Here's something else -- if you always initiate and you stop initiating, why would you think it would make her initiate? That's your job. It is well established. So, if you don't initiate, you must not want sex.
> 
> What does initiating look like? Is it a confident, "I want you, you sexy beast!" look or action or is it a child-like approach, trying to figure out if she is receptive without putting yourself on the line too much?
> 
> Well, you don't have to answer those questions. Your thread wasn't about analyzing the dynamics of your relationship. It was about whether you are wrong in what you want.
> 
> You aren't wrong.


Clipclop, I think that you hit the nail on the head-we are both avoiders.


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## AVR1962

Quote [And that's why I ask the question if a H has the right: are they legitimate requests, or does a H who asks just sound like that troublesome little kid?

Do wives give their H sex because they love them, or are they just "keeping them quiet"?]

Women do have sex to please their husbands even though they do not have the desire. She does this to hopefully please and satisfy him. However, if the man is demanding, expects this, threatens his wife and only shows attention towards her for sex she will eventually begin to loathe her husband and resentment will set in. Many women get themselves into this "trap" to please their husbands without thought of their own needs, wake up hurt one day, crying and don't understand why. They don't understand their own submission has caused them pain. 

I wish more men would understand this. I read all these posts where the wife is avoiding sex. Women like sex, perhaps nearly as much as men. Women do not have the hormones to desire sex like men do. Women generally are the communicators and what we need is touch, conversation, all of which was available to us when we were first in love and the male was interested in us, interested in getting to know us. Women wanted to be desirable to the man but they are not seeking a life time sex partner and I think many times men are when they commit to a woman. Eventually the male interest in getting to know his wife goes away, he becomes interested in his own stuff and soon the woman's connection to the man is cut off, not by her, by the man who has decided he no longer needs to court/show interest in his wife. Then men complain because they don't understand why their wives don't want sex. You hear the women say, "he might as well find a prostitute," and that is because they feel used for sex, that their husband's interests for her are sexual and nothing more.

You asked about her initiating......this would be my guess.....there has never been enough time in between for her to feel the desire to go to you. 

I have been married twice. My first husband who I loved very much was very demanding. We had sex at least 3 times a week and if he did not get that he would go into a rage. His complaint about me was that I never went to him. I told him that there was never enough time that passed between times for my desire to build to a point that I felt I needed to go to him. I also knew how demanding he was and I knew that the couple days I had was a break. I knew he would be back for more so why initiate.


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## clipclop2

Sounds like you feel sex 3x per week is a lot of sex. I would call that average. 

But I agree with being cut off from the emotional connection after courtship. I think immature men tend to go that route.

This couple doesn't talk. They neglect one another out of fear and then have the irrational response of being hurt by the other when in fact, their inaction is the root cause.

I don't have a lot of respect for avoiders because they act like victims when they have simply relinquished responsibility for their lives to others. They also tend to be evasive so talking to them is frustrating. There is an underlying dishonesty in avoiders that bugs me.


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## Wolf1974

AVR1962 said:


> Quote [And that's why I ask the question if a H has the right: are they legitimate requests, or does a H who asks just sound like that troublesome little kid?
> 
> Do wives give their H sex because they love them, or are they just "keeping them quiet"?]
> 
> Women do have sex to please their husbands even though they do not have the desire. She does this to hopefully please and satisfy him. However, if the man is demanding, expects this, threatens his wife and only shows attention towards her for sex she will eventually begin to loathe her husband and resentment will set in. Many women get themselves into this "trap" to please their husbands without thought of their own needs, wake up hurt one day, crying and don't understand why. They don't understand their own submission has caused them pain.
> 
> I wish more men would understand this. I read all these posts where the wife is avoiding sex. Women like sex, perhaps nearly as much as men. Women do not have the hormones to desire sex like men do. *Women generally are the communicators and what we need is touch, conversation, all of which was available to us when we were first in love and the male was interested in us, interested in getting to know us.* Women wanted to be desirable to the man but they are not seeking a life time sex partner and I think many times men are when they commit to a woman. Eventually the male interest in getting to know his wife goes away, he becomes interested in his own stuff and soon the woman's connection to the man is cut off, not by her, by the man who has decided he no longer needs to court/show interest in his wife. Then men complain because they don't understand why their wives don't want sex. You hear the women say, "he might as well find a prostitute," and that is because they feel used for sex, that their husband's interests for her are sexual and nothing more.
> 
> You asked about her initiating......this would be my guess.....there has never been enough time in between for her to feel the desire to go to you.
> 
> I have been married twice. My first husband who I loved very much was very demanding. We had sex at least 3 times a week and if he did not get that he would go into a rage. His complaint about me was that I never went to him. I told him that there was never enough time that passed between times for my desire to build to a point that I felt I needed to go to him. I also knew how demanding he was and I knew that the couple days I had was a break. I knew he would be back for more so why initiate.



Their is another side of this that some women don't seem to understand. I once had a conversation similar to this with x wife. We were never sexless but it was clear we were moving into a realm of her doing duty sex which also was not ok with me. 

So we talk one night about our needs. I say that I feel alienated from her when she clearly only does sex just to "shut me up". She retorts that their is more to intimacy than just sex. I take a deep breath and calm down for a second before I speak. I then say you mean intimacy like talking, holding hands, cuddling ect.... Which I always do correct? She said yes that is also intimacy. I then told her yes for you it is not for me. Got the deer in the headlights look. I say I can stay up all night holding you talking and cuddling and while I enjoy that and love you it does nothing to build my intimacy. I feel connected to you most through sex since that is when I am most vulnerable. Now suppose I told you, as you have told me about sex, that I'm not interested in talking to you, giving you a hug when your upset I only did those things to get you to leave me alone. How would you feel about that? Her only response was I never thought of it that way and was never an issue again.

Point is most men and most women express and get intimacy in different ways. And BOTH need to be respected


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## clipclop2

It is when you are open and implore your partner to meet your needs and it doesn't happen that you have a legitimate cause to worry and complain.

All of the manipulative game playing that goes on to avoid honest communication damages the marital foundation. It undermines trust. Everything you have ever done is suspect because you never said what you meant or felt. Does your spouse even know you?

Nope.

You gave them someone they felt compatible with. They married that person.

If you want to blame them for not meeting your needs maybe they should be able to get an annulment because the real you isn't who they married and all along the one they married never existed.

There is no way to be able to legitimately point fingers if you are not clear and honest.


----------



## Chumpless

The right to demand it? No. 
The right to put up with it? Yes. 
The right to tell her it's a deal-breaker if she doesn't meet this need? Of course.
The right to follow through on the latter? Yes.

Just my opinion.


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## missthelove2013

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He does not have the right to TAKE it, obviously...but sex and affection is part of the deal of marriage

I put up with a sexless marriage for a couple years...will never do that again...its a deal breaker...I would NOT marry someone who is LD or notm affectionate...and if she suddenly and mysteriously becomes LD and not affectionate AFTER marriage, its a deal breaker...


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## over20

You are totally right on! I mean isn't that the dang reason we all get married? To legally do each other?...Maybe I am just old fashioned...


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## over20

I am sorry , I am not the normal kind of woman .....but YES as a man you have every dang right to have sex with the woman that said yes to you.......Women are not stupid.....they know that when they get married they better step up and take care of their husbands sexual needs....


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## Vega

AVR1962 said:


> Women do have sex to please their husbands even though they do not have the desire. She does this to hopefully please and satisfy him. However, if the man is *demanding*, *expects* this, *threatens* his wife and only shows attention towards her for sex she will eventually begin to loathe her husband and resentment will set in.


I think part of the problem is that the 'threat' of our spouse leaving us for lack of sex, or cheating on us for lack of sex (or simply wanting MORE sex and 'variety') or 'attacking' us for lack of sex, is ALWAYS there, whether verbalized or not. Once a woman says 'yes' to sex, whether married or not, she's no longer 'allowed' to say 'no' to it. She must ALWAYS 'do it', even if she doesn't really want to. 

After all, look at how many people here at TAM are in low-sex or 'sexless' marriages for only a few WEEKS or even MONTHS who are already considering divorcing their spouse for the "lack" of sex! Heck, I had sex with my husband 3X per DAY, and he STILL had time to have cybersex with complete strangers! Once I discovered his 'secret' (two weeks after we were married), the underlying 'threat' was ALWAYS there. [/I]

I also believe you brought up another important point, AVR1962. To paraphrase, a husband may not know if his wife is simply having sex with him in order to 'keep him quiet', likewise, wives have NO IDEA if their husband's want to _use_ them in order to simply 'get off'! After all, does a husband ALWAYS 'make love' to his wife when having sex with her, or is it that he wants an orgasm, and 'expects' HER to 'give' it to him? 

The truth is, that men and women don't' 'need' each other for an orgasm. They can do that on their own. But so many people have been conditioned to believe that the only 'right' way to have an orgasm (once married) is through sex with your spouse. I wonder why that is....?

Sort of a double-edged sword, dontcha think?

Vega


----------



## turnera

F-102 said:


> But then she went on saying that she wished he had said that 10 years ago, that she HATED sex and couldn't stand pleasing him, but only did it to "keep him quiet", then kept on going that sex is degrading to women, that all men are pigs who only want one thing, yada yada yada...
> 
> I just can't help but wonder, is that the way it REALLY is?


It is with me. 

Read the books, you'll see the truth, over and over: women typically have to have an emotional connection to want to have sex with their man (and that includes NOT having NEGATIVE emotions), while men typically want the sex more and get their emotional connection from doing it. So it behooves the man to figure out how to keep the emotional connection the wife had when he was dating/wooing her or first married. Somewhere along the line, the wife got discouraged or disheartened and stopped seeing her man as the guy she'd been dreaming of.


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## turnera

Vega said:


> I think part of the problem is that the 'threat' of our spouse leaving us for lack of sex, or cheating on us for lack of sex (or simply wanting MORE sex and 'variety') or 'attacking' us for lack of sex, is ALWAYS there, whether verbalized or not. Once a woman says 'yes' to sex, whether married or not, she's no longer 'allowed' to say 'no' to it. She must ALWAYS 'do it', even if she doesn't really want to.


SO so true. 

I finally, after 30+ years, told my H that if he would just back off and not ask for it more than once a week, I would be much more happy to do it. But as it was, him groping 2 or 3 or 4 times a week, I just dreaded being close enough to him for him to be able to reach me. Started sitting on a chair instead of the couch. Sleeping on the edge of the bed. He backed off, for about 6 months, and it was heaven not being on edge every night of the week. Now he's creeping back up to the old norm.


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## Wolf1974

turnera said:


> SO so true.
> 
> I finally, after 30+ years, told my H that if he would just back off and not ask for it more than once a week, *I would be much more happy to do it. But as it was, him groping 2 or 3 or 4 times a week, I just dreaded being close enough to him for him to be able to reach me.* Started sitting on a chair instead of the couch. Sleeping on the edge of the bed. He backed off, for about 6 months, and it was heaven not being on edge every night of the week. Now he's creeping back up to the old norm.


Wow. What was your husbands reaction to that? I think those words and actions coming from my wife would be the end of the relationship for me.


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## turnera

Well, after years and years of me telling him how unhappy I was, I suppose it was just one more complaint. At least this time he listened.


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## clipclop2

So F-, did you end up "taking" her that day?

Have you spoken with her about initiation since you last posted?


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## struggle

My view is that in marriage there is an expectation of intimacy, and if one starts severly withholding from their spouse that the spouse has the right to say something about it, and declare it an issue that needs to fixed somehow.

Demand....ehhhh...like others said about duty sex....not fun...

IMO I think lack of sex is just a symptom of an emotional problem in the marriage. For me, and as a woman, sex is directly linked to my happiness, my state-of-mind, and my desire to WANT to please my H. I (fortunately or unfortunately) cannot turn on my horny button anytime I choose. It's emotional. I see nothing wrong with H bringing it up and saying it's an issue... BUT.... in my experience, when I wasn't in the mood and he would get mad, talk about the demise of our marriage, or tell me I had issues - it didn't help. At all.

In hindsite...it wasn't that I didn't want sex, I was just unhappy in my marriage (now that I'm seperated and happy, my sex drive is back). There are a number of reasons I wasn't happy, but I guess the point is that the focus became on SEX as the issue in our marriage, and not the other things. We both needed counseling, and we didn't realize it. I don't blame him for making that one reason for our seperation, I think a spouse has the right to expect sex at what most people would consider a reasonable amount.


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## turnera

struggle said:


> My view is that in marriage there is an expectation of intimacy, and if one starts severly withholding from their spouse that the spouse has the right to say something about it, and declare it an issue that needs to fixed somehow.


And that person should then be open to hearing the truth of the other person's REASON for withholding, which is almost always tied into some sort of unhappiness with the state of the marriage.


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## Cynthia

F-102, You have been asked several times about your wife's responsiveness during sex, but I haven't seen an answer.
Many women are not much for initiation, even if they enjoy sex. Your wife may have thought you didn't want her anymore when you stopped asking.
It is time to learn how to communicate more deeply with your wife. Take the time to sit down and have some deep conversations with her at least once a week about her feelings, her life and your life together. Once you get more used to doing that, you can learn to discuss more sensitive subjects like your sex life, but asking a bunch of stranger on a forum about how your wife feels about sex is not going to be nearly as effectively in getting to the truth of the matter as talking directly to your wife will.


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## F-102

CynthiaDe said:


> F-102, You have been asked several times about your wife's responsiveness during sex, but I haven't seen an answer.
> Many women are not much for initiation, even if they enjoy sex. Your wife may have thought you didn't want her anymore when you stopped asking.
> It is time to learn how to communicate more deeply with your wife. Take the time to sit down and have some deep conversations with her at least once a week about her feelings, her life and your life together. Once you get more used to doing that, you can learn to discuss more sensitive subjects like your sex life, but asking a bunch of stranger on a forum about how your wife feels about sex is not going to be nearly as effectively in getting to the truth of the matter as talking directly to your wife will.


Because I am here to ask ladies opinions about whether or not a H has the right to expect sex...not b*tch about "not getting any".


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## LongWalk

F,

You have a right to demand sex, but she has a right to refuse. If, as in Turnera's marriage, it becomes duty sex that does not increase affection and intimacy, then you are in losing game in which unhappiness and resentment grow. You both lose.

Possible Reasons that she is not horny and not enthusiastic:

She feels angry, dissatisfied or disillussioned about you, your lives and or herself. Some of her anger may be due to things you don't know about. Some she has complained about over and over. Her grievances may be reasonable or off the wall. But to her they are all real.

It is also possible that she wants courtship and chase. You may or may not be able to create this. If she fantasizes about Zoro with a killer sword that is hidden under a black cape, you may or may not best her romantic demands, for they are liminal. 

Up your sex ranking. Listen to her to meet her emotional needs. Be agile in your pursuit of her. If she does not catch fire, move towards divorce. That is the best way to demand, but it is also potentially destructive. It is the ultimate ultimatum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

So the thread is done because you've learned that men should expect sex in their marriage?

You knew that when you posted, surely.


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## turnera

F-102 said:


> Because I am here to ask ladies opinions about whether or not a H has the right to expect sex...not b*tch about "not getting any".


And I am here to tell you that, unless a man grows up and figures out how to understand that women expect more (or at least the same) AFTER the wedding, the man is unlikely to keep a wife who still believes he has a right to expect sex.


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## F-102

clipclop2 said:


> So F-, did you end up "taking" her that day?
> 
> Have you spoken with her about initiation since you last posted?


In response:


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## clipclop2

Why not?


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## missthelove2013

LongWalk said:


> F,
> 
> You have a right to demand sex, but she has a right to refuse. If, as in Turnera's marriage, it becomes duty sex that does not increase affection and intimacy, then you are in losing game in which unhappiness and resentment grow. You both lose.
> 
> Possible Reasons that she is not horny and not enthusiastic:
> 
> She feels angry, dissatisfied or disillussioned about you, your lives and or herself. Some of her anger may be due to things you don't know about. Some she has complained about over and over. Her grievances may be reasonable or off the wall. But to her they are all real.
> 
> It is also possible that she wants courtship and chase. You may or may not be able to create this. If she fantasizes about Zoro with a killer sword that is hidden under a black cape, you may or may not best her romantic demands, for they are liminal.
> 
> Up your sex ranking. Listen to her to meet her emotional needs. Be agile in your pursuit of her. If she does not catch fire, move towards divorce. That is the best way to demand, but it is also potentially destructive. It is the ultimate ultimatum.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


sigh...people have ridiculous expectation on marriage and sex, women especially in my experience

you get married, you move in together, you have kids, jobs, bills, household chores..now there is a **** load of things the couple HAVE to agree on, comprimise on, or agree to disagree on, there is a TON of stress related to the above...on top of all that, they are having sex with the same person day in and out for years, decades...and expect to NOT EVER have duty sex??

phhhttttt...this is why affairs happen, especially when men do the cheating...not justifying and honestly I dont have the answers either...marriage and sex are NOT a happy couple...maybe at first...but SOMEONE is ALWAYS going to want it more than the other, someone is ALWAYS going to age better, remain in shape better, or maintain their sex ranking better than the other...:rofl:


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## Miss Taken

F-102 said:


> But, every now and then, those echoes from the past come back to haunt me: "Don't cause trouble!" "Nobody wants to hear about your problems!" "Keep things quiet!"
> 
> And that's why I ask the question if a H has the right: are they legitimate requests, or does a H who asks just sound like that troublesome little kid?
> 
> Do wives give their H sex because they love them, or are they just "keeping them quiet"?





F-102 said:


> "keeping one quiet" has negative connotations for me, i.e., one resents and even hates what they have to do in order to "keep one quiet", but they had damn well better, lest the gates of hell open up.


In your childhood, you had to do things that you didn’t want to do or even despised doing and weren’t allowed to complain lest you be severely punished. Now you think your wife has duty sex and despises it. Has she outright said she despises sex or thinks it’s disgusting? If not, do you think you could be projecting those negative views about sex onto her? She may actually enjoy pleasing you even if she’s not as interested in having sex herself in the case of LD. She may also really be into the sex but was raised that she’s not supposed to enjoy it and keeps that quiet/doesn’t initiate. Or it may also be that she does initiate – but does so really subtly that you’re not reading her cues. 

Quite often men and women initiate sex differently. WS is definitely more aggressive than I am when it comes to initiating (coming up to me and giving me a hug when he’s hard for example), well, there is no subtlety in that! I on the other hand tend to be on the more subtle side 80% of the time. Of course there are times when I walk into the room wearing nothing but high heels, ask if he wants to have sex or get literally “hands on” about it; but more regularly, I tend to be much, much more subtle like this:



Tall Average Guy said:


> In some sense, it is more like an invitation. Body language, touches, flirting, are very often a woman signalling her interest.


In year three of our relationship, my spouse and I had a bit of conflict over this. He now understands how I initiate but there was a time where he would of said that he always initiates and I never did. At that same time, I would of said, I practically throw myself at him but he never wants sex if I initiate it! 

It never ceases to amaze me how we’re willing to meet genitals but not at the minds with our spouses. My spouse and I didn’t talk about it at first. We both just placed our assumptions on each other and then felt resentment and detected during the time he stopped initiating and wasn’t reading my signals. But hey, we read a lot more books during that time. Like you and your wife, we are also avoiders.

Eventually we had a fight about it (I don’t recommend it) but on the Brightside, we both learned more about each other and solved the problem that we could have avoided by talking it out. We now agree that we initiate close to equally.

As for the expectation of sex, I don’t think it’s wrong to expect sex in marriage. In fact, I think it should be a given – it’s called monogamy, not celibacy. As a rule, I don’t turn down sex – save illness or being exhausted, I consent to sex. Am I always in the mood when I start? No. There are times, I’d be fine abstaining for the day but I always get in the mood once we begin. I also don’t resent it, nor am I afraid to say no. I consent even when I wouldn’t of initiated that day because I enjoy pleasing my spouse. If I didn’t enjoy pleasing my spouse, I’d never give a blow job in my life because it does nothing for me physically ha, ha.

OP, stop avoiding and talk to your wife.


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