# another girls night out question. probably no big deal



## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

so you guys are scaring the hell out of me with the other GNO thread.
My wife recently started girls night out with friends from work I have never met. I even encouraged it as she never did anything on her own. They go to a nice bar/club close to their workplace. I have seen pictures of her friends from work and like my wife are all very good looking women. She is 40 and they range in age from 24-45. I always trust my wife and never accused her of any wrong doing. The thing is, she is not a drinker. when she has one beer, it just about puts her to sleep. Well now there has been a cpl nights where she had 3-5 drinks and I get the excuse that she has to sobor up before she can drive home. So instead of home by midnight its like 3:30-4 am. The problem is she works 70 miles away and we have 3 kids, so I cannot just wake them all up and go get her. Should I put some boundaries on where she can go, how much she can drink, when to be home. I should also say that she really does find great joy in dancing which we do together as well and she has a very stressful job as an RN. I want to trust her and I do, but this thread and those cpl late nights got me wondering? The one night when she came home really late, I kept it light as I didn't want her to throw a guard up, and I asked her toungue in cheek like "so how many times did you guys get hit on?" she said not once. This threw a flag up. I mean these girls are smoking hot, in one of the biggest clubs in the city on a holiday weekend. Is it possible that not one guy or group of guys would approach them? I guess I just felt like she wasn't being totally honest.
PS. I have another thread about our resentment issues, but wanted to seperate this issue/non-issue to get a different perspective.


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

This is dangerous territory. She's on a path to trouble. I don't know what the answer is but I would say you really need to sit down and have a talk with her about it. If my wife were out till 3 or 4 in the morning "with the girls" I'd blow a gasket. Well, I wouldn't now cuz we're divorcing but if she had when things were ok with us I sure would have. Nothing wrong with her going out for "a" drink with the girls or a movie or something, but clubbing all night? I think not.


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## growtogether (Feb 27, 2012)

Hi Dad, 
If you were to identify your feelings here, what would they be?
When you look at your wife's situation, what is going on in your mind and body?
You said some interesting key words here: honesty, trust and scare.
Then you talk about boundaries, so what exactly do you want from this?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

hoo boy

you arent your wife's keeper BUT...


-she's hanging with 20 somethings who are likely single or have no cares about your wife's marital boundaries. She may also want to feel younger and freer by hanging out with these coworkers. 
-she's going to dance clubs, aka "Meat markets" Dance clubs are where men go to look to pick up women. Your wife may have the most altruistic intentions of just dancing but the men there have no qualms about approaching her and dancing with her and providing lots of attention, thereby putting her in a position of great temptation
-she's drinking more than she usually does- a change of behavior, alcohol will also loosen boundaries and make it easier for her to break boundaries


NIP IT IN THE BUD NOW
-


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

This needs to stop. GNO is one thing. Partying, getting drunk and staying out till 4am is a whole other issue.

That would never ever fly with my husband.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

Mavash. said:


> This needs to stop. GNO is one thing. Partying, getting drunk and staying out till 4am is a whole other issue.
> 
> That would never ever fly with my husband.


Yup. I wouldn't be okay with it either. I could actually see myself getting very, very P/O'd over the whole thing and losing my cool.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> so you guys are scaring the hell out of me with the other GNO thread.
> My wife recently started girls night out with friends from work I have never met. I even encouraged it as she never did anything on her own. They go to a nice bar/club close to their workplace. I have seen pictures of her friends from work and like my wife are all very good looking women. She is 40 and they range in age from 24-45. I always trust my wife and never accused her of any wrong doing. The thing is, she is not a drinker. when she has one beer, it just about puts her to sleep. Well now there has been a cpl nights where she had 3-5 drinks and I get the excuse that she has to sobor up before she can drive home. So instead of home by midnight its like 3:30-4 am. The problem is she works 70 miles away and we have 3 kids, so I cannot just wake them all up and go get her. Should I put some boundaries on where she can go, how much she can drink, when to be home. I should also say that she really does find great joy in dancing which we do together as well and she has a very stressful job as an RN. I want to trust her and I do, but this thread and those cpl late nights got me wondering? The one night when she came home really late, I kept it light as I didn't want her to throw a guard up, and I asked her toungue in cheek like "so how many times did you guys get hit on?" she said not once. This threw a flag up. I mean these girls are smoking hot, in one of the biggest clubs in the city on a holiday weekend. Is it possible that not one guy or group of guys would approach them? I guess I just felt like she wasn't being totally honest.
> PS. I have another thread about our resentment issues, but wanted to seperate this issue/non-issue to get a different perspective.


If you were NOT already having marital issues this would be a huge red flag. Since you are having marital issues this is over the top.

40 is not easy for many women. At this time some start looking for validation from other men. Some start re-evaluating thier comittment to a monogamous marriage. Or in general start slipping thier boundaries. They feel like they are tenured and can start living in a diffent way. i.e. more independent behavior and living for themselves as opposed to their spouse. Some call this a MLC. Whatever, I see this as a normal phase in life that happens around 40 for some folks.

The fact she cannot handle alcohol and yet now is drinking and staying out late period is beyond risky. She may use this as an excuse but basically it makes her a huge target. She is not a savvy partier so she will make all the mistakes and bad choices that younger folks make when they are dating and end up in ONSs and other bad relationships.

She is now seeking out other men to flirt with, drink with, dance with, be groped by and so on. She is doing this with impaired brain function by drinking heavily. This is single behavior. The men there who are hitting on her are primarily interested in feeling her up, getting sex from her and / or having future contact to seduce her.

The bottom line she is seeking out other men now. Add that to the other issues in your marriage. NO good will come of this. In fact accepting this will only further lower her respect for you.

In addition realize that this is a great cover to be meeting up with another man from work.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

I think you have every right to step in... GNO has already started to alter her behaviors so you'd be crazy not to.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

wow is it possible that I just trust her too much? These replies seem over the top to me. I see the pictures her friends post on facebook and it is always just all the girls dancing in a bubble. I have reviewed all her text and phone calls on our bill and nothing is out of the ordinary. I even had a phone locator app and always where she said she was. Am I being naive? I would like a direct answer to my main question I will ask again.


The one night when she came home really late, I kept it light as I didn't want her to throw a guard up, and I asked her toungue in cheek like "so how many times did you guys get hit on?" she said not once. This threw a flag up. I mean these girls are smoking hot, in one of the biggest clubs in the city on a holiday weekend. Is it possible that not one guy or group of guys would approach them?

Also the 4 am thing only happened once. There was an hour late one time and the other times are more like a drink after work with the girls for a cpl hours, then home right after that.

The one thing that has brought another red flag up is, we have been re-connecting this last week like never before. We really started working on it about 3 weeks ago. Since then she has no interest at all in girls night out. I am sure i am reading into it, but I feel like maybe there has been an EA? now her emotional needs are being met, so maybe no need for the other? Again this is a big stretch and everything is going so good right now in our marriage, I really don't want to throw a big wrench in it. I certanly don't want a confession I may not be able to handle!!!!!


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> If you were NOT already having marital issues this would be a huge red flag. Since you are having marital issues this is over the top.
> 
> 40 is not easy for many women. At this time some start looking for validation from other men. Some start re-evaluating thier comittment to a monogamous marriage. Or in general start slipping thier boundaries. They feel like they are tenured and can start living in a diffent way. i.e. more independent behavior and living for themselves as opposed to their spouse. Some call this a MLC. Whatever, I see this as a normal phase in life that happens around 40 for some folks.
> 
> ...


I do see alot of these traits. she is deffinately showing her independance. She recently went back to school as she stated how proud she would be to get the next degree. 
On the other hand, i have realized I have given her every reason to do it as I have not been fullfilling her needs as a husband emotionally. Very good at being a dad. But gave up on the husband thing. I am changing this rapidly and it is being recieved better than ever expected. BUt now I am finding myself wondering about what may have happened when I was not.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Stay_at_home, some guys have been really burned with GNO and there are a lot of GNO supporters that could hear story after story about them and still defend them - lots of arguments on this site about it - anyway, you are going to have passionate responses on this topic no matter how you slice it.

For me, the only thing that jumped out at me was the fact that her behaviors are changing... coming home drunk at 4am? As a 40 year old married woman? That is not good. So, it's worth stepping in and reminding her that she isn't single and 18 any more.

As for the rest of it, just be aware it's out there, observe, and be wiser for it.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm sorry to say that if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't be comfortable with this situation at all and I would be inclined to put a complete end to her GNOs. My wife goes out on GNOs but her and her friends go to restaurants, not bars or clubs and her evenings almost always end early (9:00 PM or 10:00 PM). Additionally I have, on occasion, discreetly checked up on her GNOs to make sure she was where she said she was going to be and with whom. As a SAHD you don't have the flexibility to go and personally verify what is going on for your own piece of mind. So, if you're not comfortable with what is going on with your wife and her friends, I don't see where you have any other choice but to ask her to end her GNOs. BTW: Don't expect this to be easy and don't expect a warm response.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

SAHD, yes you are being too trusting. Other commenters answered your question quite clearly but I suspect you are too overwhelmed by the implications to hear: yes it is impossible that no men approached your W's group of friends.

What time do the bars close where you live? Where do you think she was after closing time, how did she get there and who else was she with? Women going to afterparties are going there with the guys they picked up - there is a chance your W was just following her "friends" there, but either way she is surrounding herself with a bunch of friends that are out for sex. As much as she loves to dance, her friends are not out to just dance, and if you enable your W's gno's neither will she for very long.

I tell you this from my own experience as a trusting loyal husband who supported my W in her quest for self-improvement, and stayed home with our son without complaint while she went out late partying with her friends - I held all my disdain in and bit my lip because I wanted her to be happy and hoped that happiness would spill over into our marriage and family life too - despite all my enabling she just saw me as holding her back?!?! it was completely incomprehensible to me, and hurt me to the core. I sincerely hope this doesn't happen to you, but I'm giving you a warning because it is just too similar and common a pattern to ignore...


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Here's the thing. If I limit the GNO to no bars/ dance clubs. It will end. Next we are just getting to dealing with the resentment part of our mariage. However, I have boys night out, which is usually during the day or early evening or when my band plays about 4-5 times a year. Our BNO involves going to eat chicken wings or riding atvs. Never and I mean never going to a bar. Its to damn expensive for me. I just want to trust her! first and foremost. I feel like there is point in being married if you cannot trust your spouse. I think I should have never read the other GNO thread and I would be fine.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

stay at home dad said:


> Here's the thing. If I limit the GNO to no bars/ dance clubs. It will end. Next we are just getting to dealing with the resentment part of our mariage. However, I have boys night out, which is usually during the day or early evening or when my band plays about 4-5 times a year. Our BNO involves going to eat chicken wings or riding atvs. Never and I mean never going to a bar. Its to damn expensive for me. I just want to trust her! first and foremost. I feel like there is point in being married if you cannot trust your spouse. I think I should have never read the other GNO thread and I would be fine.


Actually it's a good thing you read the GNO thread so you see others experiences. Ignorance is not bliss.


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

and there's no point in BLINDLY trusting your spouse either


crossing boundaries when people are put into tempting situations happens all too often to all walks of life and all sorts of people who never had the intentions of unfaithfulness or infidelity


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> and there's no point in BLINDLY trusting your spouse either
> 
> 
> crossing boundaries when people are put into tempting situations happens all too often to all walks of life and all sorts of people who never had the intentions of unfaithfulness or infidelity


what are yours?, what are hers? talk to her about them....


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

No you would not be fine if you hadn't read the GNO threads, because you are wasting your trust on her right now, the more trust you give her the more she will selfishly take to use against your marriage. You have demonstrated your trust for 17 years of marriage man, it is time to reel her in.

At some point, if you wish to save the marriage it means having her attraction back on you, and that means not being a doormat, not being afraid of being called controlling, and not letting her exceed your boundaries. You must be willing to divorce her if she is not going to do her role in the marriage - you can't control others but you can, and must, take control of your own life. It is what she is craving and wants deep down...

Please listen, it may not be too late but you are losing her fast - she needs someone to put the marriage back on track and to enforce the marital boundaries and it has to be you because you are the husband that is your job. Sorry if it sounds sexist, its just the plain primitive truth.

Or you could be like the rest of us that watched our W's slip away, afraid to act, thinking our limitless trust will overcome... it doesn't. You need to be very angry right now at the disrespect you have been tolerating from your marriage partner for too long, but I suspect you react by accomodating more and more, thinking its a virtue, because that is what you've always done and let those unworthy slip from your life, but this is your W who you committed to love and you need to get her in line or tell her to get out - sorry there really are no other choices here. You have needs and you are so blinded by your niceguyness you probably don't even have a clue what your needs really are. Let me tell you the basics for most of H's: A woman who stands by her man no matter if she thinks he is wrong or right, who comes home to deal with marital problems rather than seek extramarital comfort, who gets pleasure by pleasing you, and who sees your unconditional love as the greatest gift you could ever give her.


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Hi SAHD,

I have GNO's once a month or so...usually it's dinner but once in a blue moon we'll go to a bar/club...and the married ladies are not there to pick up guys, be picked up, etc. Some of my friends are divorced and like to dance but don't want to go out alone...others just like to dance (with each other)...yes, sometimes guys will come over to chat, ask someone to dance...and we all point to the single ladies  All innocent so although I haven't read that thread recently, it is not always BAD!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> wow is it possible that I just trust her too much?


So...have you read the stuff about No More Mr Nice Guy? 

When you put together that you 

are the SAHD (automatically puts you below the men who go out and kill the meat for the family)
didn't set boundaries (makes you look like a wimp)
haven't put a stop to it (even bigger wimp)
stay at home babysitting while SHE gets to have the fun that the men more typically do (milquetoast)
are letting her do this when she's hitting her MLC age
and have to ASK us if you trust her too much (trust me, she KNOWS you're afraid to lose her or stand up to her - doormat)
Yeah, you have a lot to worry about.

Women HAVE to respect their man. Goes back to caveman days, it's in our DNA. The less 'manly' you become (no offense to you being a SAHD, I think that's awesome), the less DESIRABLE you become. And the longer you allow it, the less desirable you become. And the more afraid of saying what you think you become, the less desirable you become.

Until she thinks about coming home to the babysitter (you), and wonders why she should be satisfied with that, when all those men at the clubs (and doctors) are out there, chasing her tail. Doing what 'real' men do.

Any guess to where this is heading (if it already hasn't)?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> The one thing that has brought another red flag up is, we have been re-connecting this last week like never before. We really started working on it about 3 weeks ago. Since then she has no interest at all in girls night out. I am sure i am reading into it, but I feel like maybe there has been an EA? now her emotional needs are being met, so maybe no need for the other? Again this is a big stretch and everything is going so good right now in our marriage, I really don't want to throw a big wrench in it. I certanly don't want a confession I may not be able to handle!!!!!


 Then you know what to do. As long as she doesn't plan to go GNO again, stay the course. (but read No More Mr Nice Guy) But if she says she's going out, you calmly tell her what YOUR requirements are if she does. LEAD your family. She will respect you for that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> Here's the thing. If I limit the GNO to no bars/ dance clubs. It will end. Next we are just getting to dealing with the resentment part of our mariage. However, I have boys night out, which is usually during the day or early evening or when my band plays about 4-5 times a year. Our BNO involves going to eat chicken wings or riding atvs. Never and I mean never going to a bar. Its to damn expensive for me. I just want to trust her! first and foremost. I feel like there is point in being married if you cannot trust your spouse. I think I should have never read the other GNO thread and I would be fine.


The next time she says she's going to a club, say 'Great! I'll get a babysitter, so I can go, too! It sounds like fun.' See what she says.

Then have the conversation about clubs vs movies or dinner or putt putt.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> *wow is it possible that I just trust her too much? *These replies seem over the top to me. I see the pictures her friends post on facebook and it is always just all the girls dancing in a bubble. I have reviewed all her text and phone calls on our bill and nothing is out of the ordinary. I even had a phone locator app and always where she said she was. Am I being naive? I would like a direct answer to my main question I will ask again.
> 
> 
> The one night when she came home really late, I kept it light as I didn't want her to throw a guard up, and I asked her toungue in cheek like "so how many times did you guys get hit on?" she said not once. This threw a flag up. I mean these girls are smoking hot, in one of the biggest clubs in the city on a holiday weekend. Is it possible that not one guy or group of guys would approach them?
> ...


You are being extremely naive.

Marriage is about love and respect. Trust is a by product. You trust her not to change her behavior and put her in risky situations which she is now doing. So your trust is already been compromised.

Glad you feel you are reconnecting.

Now you are indicating she is no longer doing these GNOs. Great.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Married people don't stay out dancing with members of the opposite sex until 3.30 - 4.00am .

I suggest you sit her down and talk to her.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> I do see alot of these traits. she is deffinately showing her independance. She recently went back to school as she stated how proud she would be to get the next degree.
> On the other hand, i have realized I have given her every reason to do it as I have not been fullfilling her needs as a husband emotionally. Very good at being a dad. But gave up on the husband thing. I am changing this rapidly and it is being recieved better than ever expected. BUt now I am finding myself wondering about what may have happened when I was not.


Putting the genie back in the bottle is both tough and not garanteed.

Often this results in the walk away wife syndrome. Husbands ignore thier wives until the wife has given up. Many husbands then "get it" but is it very often too late. Hopefully it is not too late for your marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> Here's the thing. If I limit the GNO to no bars/ dance clubs. It will end. Next we are just getting to dealing with the resentment part of our mariage. However, I have boys night out, which is usually during the day or early evening or when my band plays about 4-5 times a year. Our BNO involves going to eat chicken wings or riding atvs. Never and I mean never going to a bar. Its to damn expensive for me. I just want to trust her! first and foremost. I feel like there is point in being married if you cannot trust your spouse. I think I should have never read the other GNO thread and I would be fine.


You are rationalizing. Your BNOs are not even at night. They are marriage friendly. You are not out clubbing with women who want to take you to bed.

So too your wife can choose marriage freindly GNOs.

Trust me she already resents you. That is why she is adding this behavior with other men. Better to deal with resnetment and work through it and deal with what is going on now. Having poor boundaries to avoid resentment is a bad idea.

You guys need to do His Needs Her Needs and do the boundary setting. But above the boundary issues you actually need the needs discussion.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> So...have you read the stuff about No More Mr Nice Guy?
> 
> When you put together that you
> 
> ...


Outstanding BIG PICTURE post that is dead on. This is the ugly truth about things.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> So...have you read the stuff about No More Mr Nice Guy?
> 
> When you put together that you
> 
> ...


So basically the old saying that you have to treat a girl like crap for her to love you? Women can't handle equality?
Although I know it works, I refuse to be like that. Where you are correct is I am trying to help her find happiness by using technics that have helped me achieve it. I tell her she needs to have alone time with friends, because it helps me reset. Will it backfire, maybe? I really just want this women I have known since I was 15 to be happy. The hardest part maybe realizing I can't. But I am not going to change into some controlling dominant male to get a false sense of love.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Then you know what to do. As long as she doesn't plan to go GNO again, stay the course. (but read No More Mr Nice Guy) But if she says she's going out, you calmly tell her what YOUR requirements are if she does. LEAD your family. She will respect you for that.


thats is sound advice! But I am confused on what you mean by lead the family. I include her in decision making, even though I take the lead in most cases. So are you saying I should make the decisions and stand by them?


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> You are rationalizing. Your BNOs are not even at night. They are marriage friendly. You are not out clubbing with women who want to take you to bed.
> 
> So too your wife can choose marriage freindly GNOs.
> 
> ...


first, there is no evidence of other men. 
second, can you give me basic example of exceptable boundaries. I have always been of the nature that you either fully trust someone or you don't. So this is where we have both failed i guess. We really do not have boundaries. 
third, how far can you go with his needs/ her needs? Are you talking like I say I need sex 3 times a week kind of stuff or what. And how does it not come off like an altimatum?

This is the first time in my marriage I have actually tried to really dive in and fix things, so forgive my ignorance please. I am really trying to fix me, but there are some things about me I will not change, such as being a **** to scare the love out of them.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> So basically the old saying that you have to treat a girl like crap for her to love you? Women can't handle equality?
> Although I know it works, I refuse to be like that. Where you are correct is I am trying to help her find happiness by using technics that have helped me achieve it. I tell her she needs to have alone time with friends, because it helps me reset. Will it backfire, maybe? I really just want this women I have known since I was 15 to be happy. The hardest part maybe realizing I can't. But I am not going to change into some controlling dominant male to get a false sense of love.


Dominating your own life has nothing to do with treating others like crap. And you can refuse to be more dominant if you want, just realize that your W needs to be with someone dominant and because you are not, and she has weak boundaries, she is looking for someone else who is. It's also why she has apparently low sex drive to you.

As for me, I struggle with the same thing SAHD, I'm a nice guy that never imposes my own will, have never done so and at this point am barely capable of it to the point I don't even identify with my own wants and needs. I have always been genuinely content, but rarely thrilled, and it is a very lonely place. In fact the other day I had a really hard cry realizing that I'm not happy unless I'm pleasing someone - it was really hitting me and I was sad because as a divorced guy that can't get a date it seems like I fail at that too, being rejected certainly does bring about discontent even if you can't see it - and your W constantly rejects you because you have taught her to. So for the sake of your own true happiness, you need to learn to become more dominant in your own life, and hopefully soon enough in your own marriage. You are not a woman so stop identifying as one, don't seek a sense of love by being accomodating, define what you want in life and get it, be the king of your own life and love and protect all your loyal subjects and everyone in your kingdom.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> So basically the old saying that you have to treat a girl like crap for her to love you? Women can't handle equality?
> Although I know it works, I refuse to be like that. Where you are correct is I am trying to help her find happiness by using technics that have helped me achieve it. I tell her she needs to have alone time with friends, because it helps me reset. Will it backfire, maybe? I really just want this women I have known since I was 15 to be happy. The hardest part maybe realizing I can't. But I am not going to change into some controlling dominant male to get a false sense of love.


No, you don't have to treat them like crap. But at the same time, you can't let them treat you like crap. Right now, you are the babysitter while your wife acts single. Her behavior is what single women do. Why is this acceptable in a marriage?

Being a man, and getting respect, is about keeping your boundaries sound.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

She's stressed......3-5 drinks(let's say the high end).......tired(3:30-4:00)....driving 70 miles.....this could have been the recipe for a real disaster....glad it's stopped.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> *So basically the old saying that you have to treat a girl like crap for her to love you?* Women can't handle equality?
> Although I know it works, I refuse to be like that. Where you are correct is I am trying to help her find happiness by using technics that have helped me achieve it. I tell her she needs to have alone time with friends, because it helps me reset. Will it backfire, maybe? I really just want this women I have known since I was 15 to be happy. The hardest part maybe realizing I can't. But I am not going to change into some controlling dominant male to get a false sense of love.


:redcard:

No just the oppisite. Treat a woman like you care about her. Completely different thing. Being ambivalent to a woman screams, I don't really care.

In your case where you admit to neglect it just validates her behavior.

People are respoinsible for their own happiness.

IF you do not feel you are the man she needs then by all means step back and let other men give her a go. Because that is what you are doing right now.

A man with self respect and confidence knows that keeping his marriage sound is good for both himself and his wife.

So if you care for your wife and your marriage you can choose to try ot save it. But that takes effort. You have to want it.

This feels more and more like those threads where the agenda is to somehow support these type of GNOs in the name of whatever makes my wife happy. Extreme Beta behavior and that is fine.

It also sounds like those that critisize Athol for promoting tricks. There are no tricks to this at all. You need to be more assertive and be more like the man your wife is looking for. IF you choose not to put in the effort, then so be it. There is nothing equal about a woman going out on drunken GNOs while her hubby watches the kids.

Also we cannot be 15 years old our whole life. We must grow and adapt.

I treat my wife like she is the most important person in the world. She never has disrespected me.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Lon said:


> Dominating your own life has nothing to do with treating others like crap. And you can refuse to be more dominant if you want, just realize that your W needs to be with someone dominant and because you are not, and she has weak boundaries, she is looking for someone else who is. It's also why she has apparently low sex drive to you.
> 
> As for me, I struggle with the same thing SAHD, I'm a nice guy that never imposes my own will, have never done so and at this point am barely capable of it to the point I don't even identify with my own wants and needs. I have always been genuinely content, but rarely thrilled, and it is a very lonely place. In fact the other day I had a really hard cry realizing that I'm not happy unless I'm pleasing someone - it was really hitting me and I was sad because as a divorced guy that can't get a date it seems like I fail at that too, being rejected certainly does bring about discontent even if you can't see it - and your W constantly rejects you because you have taught her to. So for the sake of your own true happiness, you need to learn to become more dominant in your own life, and hopefully soon enough in your own marriage. You are not a woman so stop identifying as one, don't seek a sense of love by being accomodating, define what you want in life and get it, be the king of your own life and love and protect all your loyal subjects and everyone in your kingdom.


you know reading that makes sense. I remember when I told her what I was going to do and there was no discussion. She might seem pissed occasionally, but she was way happier. Now, I do ask if I can do something and always get made to feel bad and in return she feels bad. So I see what you are saying now.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

TBT said:


> She's stressed......3-5 drinks(let's say the high end).......tired(3:30-4:00)....driving 70 miles.....this could have been the recipe for a real disaster....glad it's stopped.


That is the part that I did confront her about and she heard me very well. She gave me the whole after school special speech about not feeling drunk and I did nip that in the bud. That to me is a boundary I know for sure. Telling her she cannot go dancing with her friends, I have issues with as being controlling. Hell she is a reasonable person. She would probably stop all together if I asked. But what reason do I have other than jealousy? I get where everyone is coming from. Maybe I am in denial. The next time she wants to go GNO, I will express my concerns about locations and see what happens.

I cannot find the thread about no more mr nice guy. can someone post a link.?


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

I'm having G.N.O issues too. 
My GF (who I've been thinking about proposing to in the Fall/Winter) is spending the summer in a different state for work. 

I know at least one of her friends dislikes me, despite never meeting me, because she thinks my GF can do "better" (find a guy with more $ - which she certainly can; she's a perfect 10, so she can get whomever she wants)

I get the impression that GNO are forums for women to tell each other that the men in each others' lives are not up to snuff. I think that's my paranoia. 

My GF has been going out every night with her girlfriends - drinks and then watch this band or that band. She'll call, but usually at midnight or 1, when I'm asleep. She's a super lightweight and gets pretty knockdown drunk with anything over 1 drink.

Since we're not married, I have no idea what sort of attitude is "right" for me to take on this. In one sense, since we're 'just dating' I'm more free - I could say "I don't like it, stop or I'm out." But....


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> first, there is no evidence of other men.
> second, can you give me basic example of exceptable boundaries. *I have always been of the nature that you either fully trust someone or you don't.* So this is where we have both failed i guess. We really do not have boundaries.
> third, how far can you go with his needs/ her needs? Are you talking like I say I need sex 3 times a week kind of stuff or what. And how does it not come off like an altimatum?
> 
> This is the first time in my marriage I have actually tried to really dive in and fix things, so forgive my ignorance please. I am really trying to fix me, but there are some things about me I will not change, such as being a **** to scare the love out of them.


Other Men : Yes you said it. You said she is going out to clubs, getting drunk and dancing. Those are the other men. You have this evidence. 

Trust : Just having blind trust says you have zero boundaries by definition. Blind trust is naive, ambivalent and lazy IMO. try switching into a more engaged marriage with your wife where love and respect rule. Read His Needs Her Needs and Not Just Freinds. 

FWIW I don't have these issues with my wife. You are posting with issues. If you always do what you do you will always get what you get. So you are ina bit of a mess. You then say you have always thought a ceratain way. Try putting those two thoughts together now. I am not beating you up but essentially you are defending what you have been doing, yet you are trying to dig out of a problem in your marriage.

I trust my wife more than anyone in the world for sure. BUT if she started going on drunken GNOs that trust would be lost. Trust is earned. Love and Respect are more important. When those are honored you will have that validated trust. What we are saying is that your wife has fallen out of love with you and is now acting out on her disrespect for you. Therefore since trust is a by product you now have behavior you cannot trust.

But one very serious question for you. When you say you trust your wife.. What does that really mean? Does that mean you trust that she will not have sex with someone? Or is the bar higher than that? Do you trust that she will not fall into an EA? That is important because most folks who fall into an EA do not intend to do so. Where do you think her boundaries are? Did you trust her not to drink and drive? Where are your boundaries. It sounds like you are saying you want to be fine with her deciding on the fly where the boundaries are that you never discussed them with her. I mean if you are fine with this then more power to you. Good luck.

This is why I entreat you though to do His Needs Her Needa together. You guys need that communication.

Your wife taking up drinking at her age is bad juju my friend.

The first thing you need to do is decide where your boundaries are. I mean in detail. What would you consider crossing a boundary would be for your wife. Is dancing while drunk with other men ok until 3am? Kissing? What?

I have never had to challenge my wife in anything like this. My wifes GNOs do not involve other men. Thankfully that fits my personal boundaries just fine.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> That is the part that I did confront her about and she heard me very well. She gave me the whole after school special speech about not feeling drunk and I did nip that in the bud. That to me is a boundary I know for sure. Telling her she cannot go dancing with her friends, I have issues with as being controlling. Hell she is a reasonable person. She would probably stop all together if I asked. But what reason do I have other than jealousy? I get where everyone is coming from. Maybe I am in denial. The next time she wants to go GNO, I will express my concerns about locations and see what happens.
> 
> I cannot find the thread about no more mr nice guy. can someone post a link.?


Jealous, insecure and controlling.

Jealous is a feeling. There is nothing good nor bad about it. When someone feels jealous it is a gut feeling. You will find most people here will tell you to listen to your gut feeling. This is a normal survival orineted feeling when your wife is being approached by another man / predator. It is part of being a man. Yes call it c0ckblocking if you will. Fighting this feeling is not a good idea. It is there for a reason. Nothing you have stated so far would say that feeling jealous would be unwarranted.

Insecure is how one should feel when they are having marriage problems like you are undergoing. To ignore these feelings is to ignore that there is a problem to deal with.

Controlling. You cannot control other people but you can control yourself. Define your boundaries.
Now many would contend that being married in itself is controlling. So you wanting her to bahve within boundaries you see as controlling? If so you have already lost.

But beyond the above. So what? Are you more worried about someone saying you are jealous, insecure and controlling than you are about losing your wife? I suggest that you focus on savuing your marriage and forget about what someone calls you. That is weak. men do not change their behavior because someone says they are jealous, insecure or controlling.

Look, do you want to take an active roll and turn this around or are you just going to continue to find rationalization as to why you are unable to act?


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> I asked her toungue in cheek like "so how many times did you guys get hit on?" she said not once. This threw a flag up. I mean these girls are smoking hot, in one of the biggest clubs in the city on a holiday weekend.


I know for a fact THAT was a lie. And even the "stop being a controlling Neanderthal" crowd has to admit that.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

SoWhat said:


> I'm having G.N.O issues too.
> My GF (who I've been thinking about proposing to in the Fall/Winter) is spending the summer in a different state for work.
> 
> I know at least one of her friends dislikes me, despite never meeting me, because she thinks my GF can do "better" (find a guy with more $ - which she certainly can; she's a perfect 10, so she can get whomever she wants)
> ...


Best to define your relationship before she goes. If you are just dating it seems she is free and single. Do not assume anything.

So you are not in an LTR then. You are not married.

You guys are not living together?

If she is already going out every night I would think she is single and available.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

MrK said:


> I know for a fact THAT was a lie. And even the "stop being a controlling Neanderthal" crowd has to admit that.


Funny how some women call men jealous, insecure and controlling and go play with the neandrathals at the club. Those men are taking action to hook up. Those are the men the ladies go to flirt with and get attention from.

So I guess soon we are going to get the old, the ladies are dancing in a protective blister with each other. No one is groping anyone and so on. Yet they are drinking until 3am. Uh huh.

This is kinda Darwinian though.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> So basically the old saying that you have to treat a girl like crap for her to love you? Women can't handle equality?
> Although I know it works, I refuse to be like that. Where you are correct is I am trying to help her find happiness by using technics that have helped me achieve it. I tell her she needs to have alone time with friends, because it helps me reset. Will it backfire, maybe? I really just want this women I have known since I was 15 to be happy. The hardest part maybe realizing I can't. But I am not going to change into some controlling dominant male to get a false sense of love.


Not what I said, at all. You can be loving AND firm. It's a matter of respect, but it's ALSO a matter of YOU putting yourself equal to her. Would SHE be ok with YOU going out to a bar at least once a week, getting too drunk to drive home? Of course not. So why are YOU?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> thats is sound advice! But I am confused on what you mean by lead the family. I include her in decision making, even though I take the lead in most cases. So are you saying I should make the decisions and stand by them?


This is the common explanation for leading your family (whether or not you are religious, it still stands):
How Does A Husband Lead His Wife And Family?


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

MrK said:


> I know for a fact THAT was a lie. And even the "stop being a controlling Neanderthal" crowd has to admit that.


thank you! 4 pages in and someone finally answered the only question I really wanted answered!


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)




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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> We really do not have boundaries.


Here's a good synopsis of what boundaries are, what they're for, how to use them:
http://www.legacyatwork.com/pdf/Boundaries_in_Marriage_0809.pdf
Oh, and get their book and both of you read it.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Other Men : Yes you said it. You said she is going out to clubs, getting drunk and dancing. Those are the other men. You have this evidence.
> 
> .


No. I said one time she had 5 drinks and came home late. The rest of the time she had 1 drink and was home on time. She goes with several other girls and dances with them. I have seen her do this even when I am around. It is something she truly enjoys. I can tell some people have been burned bad and the responses are clouded by hate fueled responses. That does not help me, it is just getting carried away.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> how far can you go with his needs/ her needs? Are you talking like I say I need sex 3 times a week kind of stuff or what. And how does it not come off like an altimatum?


With HNHN, you BOTH determine what you need out of the marriage and you CONVEY that to your partner. You can do it easily with the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires.

You are supposed to be a team, on the same side. If she's not cheating yet, you CAN have this conversation and move forward together with rules you BOTH accept and enjoy.


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## SoWhat (Jan 7, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Best to define your relationship before she goes. If you are just dating it seems she is free and single. Do not assume anything.
> 
> So you are not in an LTR then. You are not married.
> 
> ...



I guess I wasn't being careful enough with my words. 
We're in a LTR. Exclusive and all that. 
I know some people refer to anything short of engagement as "just dating." 
We're not living together, no. She's doing a summer gig in another State.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> No. I said one time she had 5 drinks and came home late. The rest of the time she had 1 drink and was home on time. She goes with several other girls and dances with them. I have seen her do this even when I am around. It is something she truly enjoys. I can tell some people have been burned bad and the responses are clouded by hate fueled responses. That does not help me, it is just getting carried away.


Well, he's not the only one who misread what you said. I, too, got the impression from what you wrote that she's now a party girl.

Still doesn't change the fact that you have a lot of work to do.

ETA: Thanks Mavash. SAHD, you are downplaying the situation, now that we are asking you to man up. I get it, it's scary! It's taken me 30 years to stand up to my husband. But it's necessary. You are her equal. Act like it.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Jealous, insecure and controlling.
> 
> Jealous is a feeling. There is nothing good nor bad about it. When someone feels jealous it is a gut feeling. You will find most people here will tell you to listen to your gut feeling. This is a normal survival orineted feeling when your wife is being approached by another man / predator. It is part of being a man. Yes call it c0ckblocking if you will. Fighting this feeling is not a good idea. It is there for a reason. Nothing you have stated so far would say that feeling jealous would be unwarranted.
> 
> ...


I am rationalizing, I guess because when I was the bread winner, thats how I expected to be treated. Full trust. I demanded it and gave her the same in return. I think its the fact we have been together for so long, that I never really learned how to set boundaries. Never let marriage change me. We just always got along and kind of entered this routine of sorts? She was always so passive and still is, that I just never really get told what she needs, wants, expects. Over time it has morphed into something bigger and indescribable that I am just now learning what a succesful marriage really is. 
Our troubles don't stem from the GNO's. it has becaome a by-product. Now that things are working and everything is coming around, the jelalous part of me wonders if something might have happened when I was not being a good husband. 99% sure nothing physical happened. Only about 50% about an EA. How should I approach her about this? I mean we are talking really good right now. Moving forward is really happening. i am just not sure how to step backwards and get her to tell me the truth. I feel like when she told me the one late night that no guys hit on them was just a blatant lie.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

stay at home dad said:


> My wife recently started girls night out with friends from work I have never met.
> 
> Well now there has been a cpl nights where she had 3-5 drinks and I get the excuse that she has to sobor up before she can drive home. So instead of home by midnight its like 3:30-4 am.


I feel like you are backtracking on your original story. The GNO just started and there have been a couple of nights (your words) that she has been so drunk she couldn't come home until 4am.

This is a slippery slope. You may not can see it but we can.


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## Santa (May 31, 2012)

stay at home dad said:


> So basically the old saying that you have to treat a girl like crap for her to love you? Women can't handle equality?
> Although I know it works, I refuse to be like that. Where you are correct is I am trying to help her find happiness by using technics that have helped me achieve it. I tell her she needs to have alone time with friends, because it helps me reset. Will it backfire, maybe? I really just want this women I have known since I was 15 to be happy. The hardest part maybe realizing I can't. But I am not going to change into some controlling dominant male to get a false sense of love.



I undertsand just how you feel. I wanted the "idea" of us both in love being lovey dovey sweet nothings, etc; like you do but have came to the same conclusion over time. Its true, even if I wish it werent. 


Be the man or you will lose her. Its that simple really. What she says she wants is not what she wants. Loving, sweet, trusting, sensative guy ends up alone everytime, I hate to say..

There is a reason you see so many *******s with beautiful women. You dont have to be an ******* but be the man.

The GNO is her looking to feel like a woman again by other *men* and she most likely isnt even aware of it herself. It is what it is..


Sad but true


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Well, he's not the only one who misread what you said. I, too, got the impression from what you wrote that she's now a party girl.
> 
> Still doesn't change the fact that you have a lot of work to do.


sorry, it struck a nerve. I didn't mean to misrepresent. Its hard to get point out there in so few words.
And yes I know we have much work to do.
I just mainly want to know how to confront her in a honest way and not attack her so to speak. And when she gives me the line "I could never do that, I would feel so guilty", where do I go from there. 
Not so much being convince by everyone that she is cheating already. that dosn't help me. Its all just speculation.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> I am rationalizing, I guess because when I was the bread winner, thats how I expected to be treated. Full trust. I demanded it and gave her the same in return. I think its the fact we have been together for so long, that I never really learned how to set boundaries. Never let marriage change me. We just always got along and kind of entered this routine of sorts? She was always so passive and still is, that I just never really get told what she needs, wants, expects. Over time it has morphed into something bigger and indescribable that I am just now learning what a succesful marriage really is.


People say this, but it is never true. If you think otherwise, answer this: would you trust your wife if you found out that because she was too drunk to drive, she instead crashed at a hotel room that she split with a guy she met at the club?

Once we admit that we truly don't completely and fully trust, it all comes down to figuring out where your boundaries are. It is about your spouse demostrating that they are trust worthy. The question you need to answer is whether her actions are doing that.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I feel like you are backtracking on your original story. The GNO just started and there have been a couple of nights (your words) that she has been so drunk she couldn't come home until 4am.
> 
> This is a slippery slope. You may not can see it but we can.


I was just trying to get the simple story out there.
It started about 3 months ago. There was really only 1 time she was really late. she called and said she was going to start drinking water and sobor up because she had 5 drinks. Another time after work she was about an hour late from the time she said, but it wasn't because of drinking. and the drinking thing was nipped in the bud. She still might have 1 drink, but then she stops.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just continue reading and learning; talking about what's happened can come later, AFTER you have each other's trust again.

And read this; it might fit your wife:
The Walkaway Wife Syndrome | Psychology Today


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Santa said:


> I undertsand just how you feel. I wanted the "idea" of us both in love being lovey dovey sweet nothings, etc; like you do but have came to the same conclusion over time. Its true, even if I wish it werent.
> 
> 
> Be the man or you will lose her. Its that simple really. What she says she wants is not what she wants. Loving, sweet, trusting, sensative guy ends up alone everytime, I hate to say..
> ...


Crazy as it may bee, I think you are spot on.
When I look back at the downward spiral, it all started when she told me she wanted me to be more understanding, sweet, help out around the house more, etc etc etc


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> People say this, but it is never true. If you think otherwise, answer this: would you trust your wife if you found out that because she was too drunk to drive, she instead crashed at a hotel room that she split with a guy she met at the club?
> 
> Once we admit that we truly don't completely and fully trust, it all comes down to figuring out where your boundaries are. It is about your spouse demostrating that they are trust worthy. The question you need to answer is whether her actions are doing that.


I am learning that! you are right. I am ready to change. thats why I am on here constantly the last few days hanging on every word. to learn what I need to know after all these years.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Here's a good synopsis of what boundaries are, what they're for, how to use them:
> http://www.legacyatwork.com/pdf/Boundaries_in_Marriage_0809.pdf
> Oh, and get their book and both of you read it.


thanks, but I am agnostic and couldn't get past the first paragraph


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

stay at home dad said:


> I just mainly want to know how to confront her in a honest way and not attack her so to speak. And when she gives me the line "I could never do that, I would feel so guilty", where do I go from there.


Repeat after me. "That's not okay with me". Doesn't matter if she'd feel guilty, doesn't matter if she says she could never do that, the point is you aren't okay with it. Period end of story. This is what a boundary looks like. You state in clear, easy to understand words what you are and are not okay with. It isn't up for discussion and you repeat again "this is not okay with me".


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy yet? Read that first. Then read Hold On To Your N.U.T.S. from Help for Men, Mentor for Men, Men's Groups, Relationship Advice, Life Coach. Then read everything on that website. Report back.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> thanks, but I am agnostic and couldn't get past the first paragraph


 Did I not say ignore the religion? I'm agnostic too but that book has taught me more than all other books combined (Boundaries in Marriage, by Cloud & Townsend). What a copout.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

OP, I'm a very independent woman (I was going to say 'feminist,' but sadly that term has become abused and over-used, and I no longer use it), but if my partner was happy for me to do what your wife is doing, I would feel that he wasn't that interested in me and I'd start to lose interest in him.

I'm a lot older than your wife, and even at my age I get 'hit on' if I'm in a bar - let alone a club.

Boundaries! They keep a relationship secure, and the people in it.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> No. I said one time she had 5 drinks and came home late. The rest of the time she had 1 drink and was home on time. She goes with several other girls and dances with them. I have seen her do this even when I am around. It is something she truly enjoys. I can tell some people have been burned bad and the responses are clouded by hate fueled responses. That does not help me, it is just getting carried away.


And this is the point in your denial you choose to turn it around on those of us on here who absolutely were burned, but are not trying to spew vitriol but rather share some wisdom.

Several times on threads here where a spouse is behaving inappropriately, leaving the loyal one dumbstruck and unsure which led them to this site in the first place, the reality becomes too much and it must be all of us that are the ones clouded in our judgement.

You can choose to act on what we write on here or not, I do not feel any hatred of anyone including my ex, though now I have indifference while even at the time she was going out dancing with the girls and eventually making herself open to advances from other men, I was still so in love with her and had blind trust. At the time though, I sure wish I would have been open to the kind of advice we are trying to give you. Like you I also saw how genuinely happy her GNO's made her, lilttle did I know each one was just leaving her wanting more and more, edging herself closer to that precipice.

Those of us giving advice here are doing so not just to prevent an affair but moreso to help you find your own balls and take the lead in making a fulfilling marrige. If you choose not to follow our advice adn formulate a different plan, I can also respect that because you are doing what you need to do. Good luck and best wishes to you whichever way you decide to approach this.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Did I not say ignore the religion? I'm agnostic too but that book has taught me more than all other books combined (Boundaries in Marriage, by Cloud & Townsend). What a copout.


okay i will try again. it was just so heavily embedded in the beginning. I have a really hard time with religion. Really!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> No. I said one time she had 5 drinks and came home late. The rest of the time she had 1 drink and was home on time. She goes with several other girls and dances with them. I have seen her do this even when I am around. It is something she truly enjoys. I can tell some people have been burned bad and the responses are clouded by hate fueled responses. That does not help me, it is just getting carried away.


I have never been burned. Never. I have only a deep seeded love for my wife and great self respect and respect for her. I love my wife too much for game playing.

Try another spin though on why you should just have blind trust for the situation and why so many of the folks here are wrong.

We can only go by what you tell us. Like I said we were waiting for you to say that they dance in a protective blister. You are doing this now. Sorry if I come as as if you are trying to lead down a road of rationalization. We oftne get posters who claim to have a beef nd then start defending their spouses position. Very often the old bait and switch.

Again it is wonderful that this is working out for you. But you said you are not with her and that she is miles away. Which is it?

Was she drinking heavily when you saw her dancing with her lady friends?

I am amazed any men ever hook up because all these women just dance with each other.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> okay i will try again. it was just so heavily embedded in the beginning. I have a really hard time with religion. Really!


If you really have a difficult time with religion then it surprises me you even consider yourself agnostic. If you really are agnostic you should be adept at substituting in "higher power" in place of "God". That is how I am, I can still appreciate the power behind the meaning, even if I don't subscribe to organized religion, the Apostles creed or even if the Jesus in the bible was an actual man who walked the earth and was the literal son God.

But either way, the principles of marriage can be pretty much the same no matter whom your deity may be.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Lon said:


> And this is the point in your denial you choose to turn it around on those of us on here who absolutely were burned, but are not trying to spew vitriol but rather share some wisdom.
> 
> Several times on threads here where a spouse is behaving inappropriately, leaving the loyal one dumbstruck and unsure which led them to this site in the first place, the reality becomes too much and it must be all of us that are the ones clouded in our judgement.
> 
> ...


there is probably a lot of truth to that! It is just tough and i am feeling like a beat dog right now. I get everything everyone is saying. I do. Its just a lot right now.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

keko said:


>


WOW. That really hit home. I've always said that one question after "did you have fun" and I felt like I was interrogating her. Which I guess I was, since she was NEVER open with me about her nights out. It's amazing how all of the cliche's are right on the money.

What an IDIOT I was.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> there is probably a lot of truth to that! It is just tough and i am feeling like a beat dog right now. I get everything everyone is saying. I do. Its just a lot right now.


I hear you. we may be jumping to conclusions, or not, but I understand how difficult this is - which is why I fell in love with this place, because there are a group of people here who really do care about strong marriages, and about people at the core. We don't know you personally but are reading your words and whatever thoughts you care to share. There really are no guarantees, everyone is different, but there are a lot of patterns we fall into, and your story sounds like the most popular kind on here. It likely will be going one of two ways: that your W is cheating or else she is having an indentity crisis. Neither of these fall under your ownership, but there are things you can do to protect yourself and as a result possibly steer things toward a better outcome.


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## MrK (Sep 2, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> "I could never do that",


My wife brought up some crocodile tears when she said that line to me. It was beautiful. She didn't cry when her mother died or we put our dog down. She's good.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Lon said:


> If you really have a difficult time with religion then it surprises me you even consider yourself agnostic. If you really are agnostic you should be adept at substituting in "higher power" in place of "God". That is how I am, I can still appreciate the power behind the meaning, even if I don't subscribe to organized religion, the Apostles creed or even if the Jesus in the bible was an actual man who walked the earth and was the literal son God.
> 
> But either way, the principles of marriage can be pretty much the same no matter whom your deity may be.


Sorry, agnostic is my polite way of saying I am athiest. I chose agnostic as I am still spiritual in a sense, but not in a way I can really describe. anyway it is off topic. 
I did read most of it, skipping through all the scripture and I have to say I am leading this family.

By this I mean exactly what it states;
I make the decisions
i initiate the ideas
i make sure everything gets done
I pay the bills
i organize the schedules
I am deffinatley the servant

leading by love, i am just getting as i left her out of that area for a while.
leading by example, I need work on, not just with the wife, but the kids.

I think you are forgetting that I admit to making the mistake of telling her to have a girls night out. Thinking time away would help her reset. That was my decision.
She didn't ask me to do all the extra work, I chose to do it!
She doesn't tell me what I can an can't do. I do it. Although i have allowed her opinion on the latter.

but boy howdy after reading page 2 which outlines her part of the deal, I am thinking she has got some reading to do.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

What does SHE do? I mean, concerning the house, the kids, the chores, her free time?


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

turnera said:


> What does SHE do? I mean, concerning the house, the kids, the chores, her free time?


she like to go out with out her husband and drink more than she should and noone knows for sure what else she dose!!!


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> What does SHE do? I mean, concerning the house, the kids, the chores, her free time?


when she isn't working, she is taking online classes. In a weeks time, she may do a cpl loads of dishes, cook once or twice, and about half the laundry. not trying to make her look bad or like i do it all, she really just doesn't have much time.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

SAHD, as to religion, me too.

As to your part in giving her what you think will make her happier, doing all the extra work, being the servant, do you expect anything in return? Are you doing these to get what you want? Obviously you are not getting what you want (ie more sex and intimacy, as per your other thread) do you see that giving more is not the way to get what you need?

As ironic as it is, doing things for others is actually self-serving and highly unnatractive, except where it is a mutual arrangement and both have appreciation, respect and gratitude for the other.

One thing I have also learned that I'd like to share has to do with love languages and listening to our partners needs - do not do what you think should make someone happier, do what does make them happier - big difference, you could spend a lot of effort trying to please and having the wrong affect.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

chillymorn said:


> she like to go out with out her husband and drink more than she should and noone knows for sure what else she dose!!!


I am glad some people use this site for their personal soap opera. it is so helpful.

we go out together, we go out apart, we go out with the family. She went out and drank to much 1 time. Go away please.
If this is going to be someones joke, I will find help elsewhere


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Lon said:


> SAHD, as to religion, me too.
> 
> As to your part in giving her what you think will make her happier, doing all the extra work, being the servant, do you expect anything in return? Are you doing these to get what you want? Obviously you are not getting what you want (ie more sex and intimacy, as per your other thread) do you see that giving more is not the way to get what you need?
> 
> ...


I am learning this rapidly. She is just so stressed out all the time, I feel it was my duty to help her. Is she taking advantage? maybe? Am I getting more stressed? maybe? So is what I am doing working? NO? Am I changing? yes? is it working?yes? 

"do not do what you think should make someone happier, do what does make them happier"
When we were younger this was easier. Because she never told me. I just knew. As she gets older, she expresses it more, but evidentially, she doesn't know. So I will have to reset my brain and get on top of this. Very wise words indeed!


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## Santa (May 31, 2012)

stay at home dad said:


> I am learning this rapidly. She is just so stressed out all the time, I feel it was my duty to help her.


I would do the same thing. Only problem is, it actually INCREASED the times and how much drama went along with her being stressed!! The more I tried to help and take away things that caused stressed, the more stressed she became and more unattractive to her, I became. 

Its a black hole you get sucked in.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Santa said:


> The more I tried to help and take away things that caused stressed, the more stressed she became and more unattractive to her, I became.
> 
> Its a black hole you get sucked in.


As much as I wish this weren't true it's pretty much gospel. Very few women it seems are capable of taking help from their husbands without losing attraction for them in the process.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Santa said:


> I would do the same thing. Only problem is, it actually INCREASED the times and how much drama went along with her being stressed!! The more I tried to help and take away things that caused stressed, the more stressed she became and more unattractive to her, I became.
> 
> Its a black hole you get sucked in.


that just blows my mind! My version of helping out in a marriage is not like jersey shore. this will be a tough area for me. probably the toughest. I will have to count to 10 before offering to help or something.

Are there any women that agree with this on here?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> when she isn't working, she is taking online classes. In a weeks time, she may do a cpl loads of dishes, cook once or twice, and about half the laundry. not trying to make her look bad or like i do it all, she really just doesn't have much time.


How many classes each semester? She works full time, right? Does she drive to work or ride a bus or train or what? Does she help with kids' homework? How many hours a night is she at home before bedtime? What does she do on the weekends?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> As much as I wish this weren't true it's pretty much gospel. Very few women it seems are capable of taking help from their husbands without losing attraction for them in the process.


 QFT

And don't forget the GUILT. Of not being Supermom.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> that just blows my mind! My version of helping out in a marriage is not like jersey shore. this will be a tough area for me. probably the toughest. I will have to count to 10 before offering to help or something.
> 
> Are there any women that agree with this on here?


 Try this, since you two don't seem to know what the other wants or needs: Print out the Love Buster questionnaire and fill them out this weekend. She can tell you what you do that bothers her; and vice versa. (don't forget to include GNO) Once you know them, agree together to spend the next 3 months eliminating the bad habits that LB your spouse. Takes that long to remove a bad habit.

Good first start. Good start toward learning more about each other and what does and doesn't tick them off.

You have another thread about intimacy issues?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

SAHD, you mentioned your wife was a nurse so I would be more concerned of a guy hitting on her at work then at these outings. Have a look at the statistics which show extramarital affairs and where nurse's stand on those lists.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> that just blows my mind! My version of helping out in a marriage is not like jersey shore. this will be a tough area for me. probably the toughest.


What do you mean by this?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

keko said:


> SAHD, you mentioned your wife was a nurse so I would be more concerned of a guy hitting on her at work then at these outings. Have a look at the statistics which show extramarital affairs and where nurse's stand on those lists.


 Yeah, that's why I mentioned doctors.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> How many classes each semester? She works full time, right? Does she drive to work or ride a bus or train or what? Does she help with kids' homework? How many hours a night is she at home before bedtime? What does she do on the weekends?


she works 3 days a week. she communtes to work about 30 minutes. works day shift. gets home about 8:15-8:30 at night. she is taking 3 classes right now. When she gets home, its usually straight to bed. Occasional on homework. 
Weekends are usually spent with family time or we might go to a concert together. We do a lot of camping and boating and riding.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> What do you mean by this?


well he stated that helping my wife with chores and everything makes her resent me in the long run. to me thats nonsense, but seems to be the normal way of thinking here. I understand to a certain extent I guess?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> she works 3 days a week. she communtes to work about 30 minutes. works day shift. gets home about 8:15-8:30 at night. she is taking 3 classes right now. When she gets home, its usually straight to bed. Occasional on homework.
> Weekends are usually spent with family time or we might go to a concert together. We do a lot of camping and boating and riding.


 Day shift, meaning she goes to work at around noon? Or does she work 12-hour shifts?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

stay at home dad said:


> well he stated that helping my wife with chores and everything makes her resent me in the long run. to me thats nonsense, but seems to be the normal way of thinking here. I understand to a certain extent I guess?


Oh, got it. 

Here's how I see it. No matter how evolved we think we are, women still have the nesting mentality while men have the providing mentality, goes back to caveman days. It's in our DNA. Women want to work. (I'm generalizing here, no arrows please) But they also want the wonderful feeling of being the greatest mother on earth. And the best housekeeper. Even if they don't know it.

When the man steps in and starts filling that role, IMO women become anxious, subconsciously, without even realizing it or knowing why. The cart is upset. Their role's being redefined, and so is their husband's. 

Women NEED their man to be somewhat of a 'I'll take whatI want' guy in their lives. When he settles into the husband/father/housekeeper role, something becomes a little bit off. 

I was watching This Means War last night, and they showed it perfectly. Two cousins (spies) decided to go after the same woman - the charmer dangerous guy and the cuddly safe guy. They listened (eavesdropped - they ARE spies, after all) to her telling her friend that she wanted the safe guy, but he was too safe. She wanted the dangerous guy, but he seemed too cold and manipulative. Basically, she wanted BOTH of them in one man.

By settling TOO easily into the role you're now in, you've lost your dangerous side, and THAT is the man women will drop their panties for.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

stay at home dad said:


> Sorry, agnostic is my polite way of saying I am athiest. I chose agnostic as I am still spiritual in a sense, but not in a way I can really describe. anyway it is off topic.
> I did read most of it, skipping through all the scripture and I have to say I am leading this family.
> 
> By this I mean exactly what it states;
> ...


You are a classical Nice Guy. I like Nice Guys. I think they get treated poorly though. Hate to see this. I am on your side. I wish Nice Guys did not get taken advantage of but they do. They can control this though and it is very much an intervention and tough love to help them out.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

turnera said:


> Day shift, meaning she goes to work at around noon? Or does she work 12-hour shifts?


He stated she works 12 hour shifts.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> You are a classical Nice Guy. I like Nice Guys. I think they get treated poorly though. Hate to see this. I am on your side. I wish Nice Guys did not get taken advantage of but they do. They can control this though os it is very much an intervention and tough to help them out.



Yes, I like Nice Guys, too. I think sometimes women only see the true value of them when they're no longer around...

I think the secret is for Nice Guys to become more assertive regarding their own needs and when their boundaries are being disregarded. 

Recognize your own value and make sure your wife knows it, too.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

turnera said:


> Here's how I see it. No matter how evolved we think we are, women still have the nesting mentality while men have the providing mentality, goes back to caveman days. It's in our DNA. Women want to work. (I'm generalizing here, no arrows please) But they also want the wonderful feeling of being the greatest mother on earth. And the best housekeeper. Even if they don't know it.
> 
> When the man steps in and starts filling that role, IMO women become anxious, subconsciously, without even realizing it or knowing why. The cart is upset. Their role's being redefined, and so is their husband's.


I agree.

Of course I like a man to help around the home, but have to admit that I like to feel that I'm the one ultimately responsible for the 'nest.'


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## Santa (May 31, 2012)

stay at home dad said:


> well he stated that helping my wife with chores and everything makes her resent me in the long run. to me thats nonsense, but seems to be the normal way of thinking here. I understand to a certain extent I guess?




I agree with you its hard to comprehend. I had a real hard time accepting this too. I would take care of kids and do dishes etc, because I loved her and did not want to be the a-hole husband that didnt. I wanted to show her how important she and the marriage was and gave all of myself... 

Yeah... I hate to say it but, this is what happens. They lose respect and see us as "beta" and then start losing that loving "feeling" and start looking around for why they dont. Then next thing you know, they are talking to some other guy that is showing "alpha" traits and we end up divorced. 

And she isnt even aware she is doing this or wants this and in fact will tell you right the opposite. I actually hate its this way but its come to my attention over years of me "giving" and being "all in" and basically "beta" that this is actually true. 

Dont believe us or read the books that will help you. You will be right back here again one day asking what to do about the affair/divorce.. sucks but its true.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

Santa said:


> I agree with you its hard to comprehend. I had a real hard time accepting this too. I would take care of kids and do dishes etc, because I loved her and did not want to be the a-hole husband that didnt. I wanted to show her how important she and the marriage was and gave all of myself...
> 
> Yeah... I hate to say it but, this is what happens. They lose respect and see us as "beta" and then start losing that loving "feeling" and start looking around for why they dont. Then next thing you know, they are talking to some other guy that is showing "alpha" traits and we end up divorced.
> 
> ...


the beta thing I get, but the all in and no respect, I will never understand. 
Regardless, I am now just debating the points with you all as I am finding out the reason is more about me being so busy that I am not leaving any time for her to be first. I still maintained my alpha status. I did what I want, i just had to make sure everything was done first, but i still did it, but unfortunately that left no time for her to be first. I was always concerned about being an individual, not a married cpl. I was great at the physical demands of the household, but when I had a chance to be free and play music or ride dirtbikes, I took it. Over time this was the catylist for the resentment cycle. I am not saying that she is innocent and she will tell you the opposite as well, but this is the core of our problem. I really don't think she is like you say, I just think she gave up a while back and I had to start this ball rolling to fix the marriage. time will tell I am sure. as for the issue with GNO, its been discussed and she agrees to just go to the movies, out to eat, etc.. But no more clubs unless I am with her. we have also had the EA talk and I have given her the green light to come clean a cpl times. I feel If I am ever to find out about anything else that happened, I would be more understanding at this point in my life, than a month from now when she realizes how much we are connecting and starts to feel guilty. She still holds the stance that she just gave up on anyone meeting her emotional needs and swears nothing ever happened on any level with another man. I explained to her how that is always the response whether its true or not and there is a window here where she can do some soul searching and still come clean and I will feel like I can forgive or atleast understand why. But if she waits to long, it will be a trust issue again. 
On the bright side, we are connecting fast. Its almost like a new relationship or when we were kids or something. I cannot remember the last time i really felt like when we kiss, I am being kissed back with passion and not just going through the motions.
I am actually enjoying hearing about her day at work, because I want to, not because I cannot wait to get back to what I am doing. She has been picking up more chores and helping with the kids and her stress level is dropping. I have been helping her with her school work and its like we are really a team for the first time. I just have to keep reminding myself, this is how its done and not slip back into letting things go and not dealing with issues when they happen.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like progress. One suggestion: If she resents you doing things you like to do, get this book and read it together with her - it will explain to her why you should be 'allowed' to do the things you like, just as she should. It's a really quick read, and cheap, at Help for Men, Mentor for Men, Men's Groups, Relationship Advice, Life Coach: Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.


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## stay at home dad (Jun 23, 2012)

turnera said:


> Sounds like progress. One suggestion: If she resents you doing things you like to do, get this book and read it together with her - it will explain to her why you should be 'allowed' to do the things you like, just as she should. It's a really quick read, and cheap, at Help for Men, Mentor for Men, Men's Groups, Relationship Advice, Life Coach: Hold On To Your N.U.T.S.


this was discussed in counseling as well. She is on-board with me still being able to be me and have my free time as weel as her. We just need to be sure we are also being present when we are together and enjoying things together. To many times we both just looked to freetime to reset our stress levels. Turns out, we can eliminate the stress by communicating and being in the moment. Then the free time is just fun, not a reset. That is straight from the MC mouth and probably effected me more than anything else we discussed. But, my point is we touched on this issue, and just because we are going to spend more time together, doesn't mean we want to control the others free time. Thanks for the link, I will check it out as this is one of the hot topic areas we need to work on.


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