# Wife Left, I'm to Blame - Now Fighting For My Family



## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I've been a lurker on TAM since the night my wife left - six weeks have passed and I feel like it's time that I share my story, even if only to help others who have helped me through this difficult time.

Edited for privacy!


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Edited for privacy!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Are you in counseling?


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Are you in counseling?


Yes, I started counseling almost immediately after it all went down - something that I should have done a long time ago. I'm only a few sessions deep, but it's definitely helping to keep me on the right path towards dealing with my own anxiety and anger issues.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Yes, I started counseling almost immediately after it all went down - something that I should have done a long time ago. I'm only a few sessions deep, but it's definitely helping to keep me on the right path towards dealing with my own anxiety and anger issues.


Then you need to re-adjust your thinking.

You say there is "no promise of a positive outcome"

Yet, with the work you are doing on you, a "positive outcome" is guaranteed - if you stay the course.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Edited for privacy!


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Then you need to re-adjust your thinking.
> 
> You say there is "no promise of a positive outcome"
> 
> Yet, with the work you are doing on you, a "positive outcome" is guaranteed - if you stay the course.


That's entirely true, and a very good point; I'm so wrapped up in the "hope" that I've found it nearly impossible to imagine a permanent situation where we're apart and I raise my kids only half of the time, but I guess that I'll need to learn to accept that possibility - and its own unique promise - as time goes on.

I find that the hope is the only thing keeping me going at times, so it's an easy thing to cling to, especially given my regrets. She is very, very anti hope, however, so it may be easier to detach in the near future than I've ever imagined.

Only time will tell, I suppose, but I do know that my life will be infinitely better for the work I'm doing on me regardless.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Hope in what - exactly?


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Hope in what - exactly?


Hope that the changes that I've made and am making, and the work that I'm doing and am prepared to do, will convince her to give our family another chance at success. I genuinely do love her, and I detest the idea of being a half-time father; the best possible outcome from my point of view would be reconciliation and a reboot of my family.

I understand that there is a real danger is letting my own work and progress hinge on hope, and I'm trying to be logical and reasonable about the many possible outcomes at the same time, but I have to admit that this hope is what keeps me going much of the time.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Demo,

Here's the rub.

You attracted her in the first place.

Becoming - again - the man you were then has a reasonable chance of attracting her again.

Yet, many couples are drawn together in dysfunctional pairs by their dysfunction.

That's why I ask people about their childhoods.

If you are simply a codependent rescuer to her codependent prosecutor - as a result of childhood abuse?

Long difficult road.

And, one that she doesn't seem interested (now) in sharing.

That's why i asked.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

You're definitely right; unfortunately, we've been dealing with this stuff for so long that I can barely remember what it is that attracted her to me in the first place! I was always strong, but I was also always emotionally intense and tenacious with my wants, but my intensity and tenaciousness haven't gotten me anywhere over the past six weeks.

The truth is, knowing her position, her emotional state, and her stubbornness, I would doubt that anything is likely to be resolved any time soon. While there have been a few minor signs that she at least considers the possibility of reconciliation, she really does seem entirely checked out.

I'm going to try to tone down the intensity a bit and create a little more space between us; a different tactic couldn't hurt, and goodness knows that a bit of detachment wouldn't do my emotional state any harm. 

I'm one of those guys who says what's on his mind when it's on his mind, so it's a difficult thing for me not to text or call when I have something to say. I need to learn to be patient, especially if this is a path that I'm going to keep traveling despite her insistence that there is no hope. That's my biggest obstacle to my own emotional well-being at the moment, I think.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Patient?

You need to learn to be comfortable in your own skin.

Then events happen as they should - without your wonderful strong "will" to push them along.

Have fun with this link.

She says it much better than I can:

Drama Triangle | Lynne Forrest


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Patient?
> 
> You need to learn to be comfortable in your own skin.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link Conrad, I've been giving the material a look this afternoon - helpful stuff!

Woke up feeling wickedly low today, but was lucky enough to have an appointment this afternoon with a new (and semi-permanent) therapist. She was fantastic, and the session was refreshing - the feeling that I'll be able to overcome some of the issues that have held me back over the years is envigorating.

On the other hand, I still feel light years from being able to give up on my wife and family. I find it very difficult to tell if my position is noble, or illogical, or useful, or foolhardy, or what.

Has anyone out there ever faced a similar situation, where your husband or wife left due to your behaviors or lack of attention, no affair to speak of, claims from the leaver of there being no hope, where hard work and genuine change really made a difference in the relationship down the road?

I know that improving myself in these ways will make me a better father, a better man, and a better partner to whomever I enjoy my next relationship with, but my goal is 100% to make my next partner my wife.

I just want my family back


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Demo,

Claim yourself first.

The other stuff takes care of itself.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

> About 12 years ago, I met my future wife while we were employed with the same company. Five years older than me, she was *engaged to another man when I met her, married him as we carried on something of an emotional affair, and left him for me about eight months later.* I loved her with everything that I had, but obviously the dynamics were difficult.


I don't want to be "that guy", you know, the one who pisses in your Cheerios, but it has to be done.

You mention that she has commitment issues....

.......wait for it..........

....REALLY?! SHE HAS COMMITMENT ISSUES? I NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TELL.

You guys started out on an EA. Love or not, that should have been a red flag for you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sky....

We all think it's going to be "different" with us - until it isn't.

People are sent to teach us.

We need to learn from them before we let them go - just like you did.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

True. I do apologize, Demo. My bitterness is clearly showing.

I wouldn't be too quick to beat yourself up, though. Believe me, that route usually leads to some dark places, and I'm speaking from experience. You don't want to go down that way.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

No worries, Sky - no harm in pointing out the reality of things! 

I waver between regret and a bit of self-beating, but I'm trying to stay focused on the future, one way or the other. I've got to be the best man that I can be, whether she's interested or not.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Demo,

STOP making yourself vulnerable with her.

Give yourself that birthday gift.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

> she was generally non-responsive


That's because you're talking about a subject matter that makes her uncomfortable.

Much like reality is making her uncomfortable. 

This has to set in sometime. Don't mindlessly indulge her. She needs to atone for what she's done. The best way to do this is to go about your life like she never existed.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

SkyHigh said:


> That's because you're talking about a subject matter that makes her uncomfortable.
> 
> Much like reality is making her uncomfortable.
> 
> This has to set in sometime. Don't mindlessly indulge her. She needs to atone for what she's done. The best way to do this is to go about your life like she never existed.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

Ask yourself: If she hasn't been in love with you for a few years, why did she stay?

Don't you see how torturous this is going to be for you? You're speaking to somebody who has zero feelings left for you. You can't reason with her.

I'm sorry, but this is over, man...I hope you do realize, as well, that wanting to remain close with her is going to make it incredibly easy for her to move on and incredibly impossible for you to move on.

Trust me on this one, my ex-slavedriver wanted to be "friends" too....all it was for, was so that she wouldn't feel so guilty about leaving me. 

Buck up, man. I know you want to do right by the kids, but after what she did to you, you shouldn't give her the chance. You can do right by your children just fine without her.

I'd go read NNMNG, too.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

SkyHigh said:


> Ask yourself: If she hasn't been in love with you for a few years, why did she stay?
> 
> Don't you see how torturous this is going to be for you? You're speaking to somebody who has zero feelings left for you. You can't reason with her.
> 
> ...


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I'll add that I've got NMMNG queued up in audio format on my iPod - starting to dig into it right now, in fact. Thanks for the recommendation; I see it mentioned around TAM on a regular basis.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

Alright man, this needs to be broken down.



Democritus said:


> I agree with you - it's tough to look at things from any angle without coming away thinking that we are done. As for why she stayed, I'd have to go with a combination of hope of her own that things would improve, along with financial security and the kids.


And did she mention her unhappiness, or did she expect you to mind-read? The latter is completely unfair and mind-boggling as to how some WAWs think marriage works.



> We see each other every couple of days, and she's still working for me to a small degree, so not interacting with her isn't possible. I know exactly what you mean about the friendliness being difficult (and possibly even helping her to feel better about leaving) but I don't want to be selfish in that decision; she's a good woman who put up with a lot from me over the years. If I can be supportive of her during this tough time, even while she's being the same of me, then it's something that I should do, I think (for both selfish and selfless reasons).


I don't care if she's Mother Friggin' Theresa. I don't care what she put up with. You're not being selfish - it's self-preservation at this rate. I don't care how good she is, is she being supportive of you? She's not supporting you as a wife should. Stick around long enough with your hope, and hey, if you're happy with being Plan B, all the best. Just make sure to leave your self-pride at the door.



> I'm not ready to eliminate all hope, and I don't see any way of proving my improvement to her if I'm not interacting with her on as many levels as possible. Not a good sole reason, I know, but it exists amid the rest of them, just the same.


You almost sound like you're idealizing her, which is the mistake that I made. Relationships don't end on one person's mistakes, most of the time. I'm betting she wasn't a perfect angel.



> In the meantime, I feel committed to moving on in every way except dating. I've got a good personal plan in place to carry me through the summer, so I'm just going to try and stick to that.
> 
> Keep in mind that if I find our friendship to be too much to bear at some point, I'll end it - I know my own sanity is an important factor to take into account, too.


All the best, but just from what I've read, you might be setting yourself up for some hurt.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

@ SkyHigh

You're particularly right about the idealizing. The truth is, we've had enough complications between us over the years that I've certainly imagined life without her at times. She's not perfect, and not perfect for me, in many ways. 

On the other hand, she is great in many ways, too, and the added complication of losing my kids half of the time turns it all into this idealized ball of loss. I'm recognizing that more than ever just today, and I'm being mindful to remember that when I start to remember only good moments and traits.

I also think you're right about setting myself up for more hurt. From a selfish point of view, holding onto her as a friend satisfies my urge to be proactive towards what little hope I'll hold onto, but it also allows me to keep my best friend - really, my only friend - as I go through a difficult time.

A strange thing to say, I know, and I do see the potential unhealthiness of it all. I think today was a real eye opener, and I've felt almost relieved ever since, as if I can finally close the all out hope chapter of this saga and move onto focusing far, far less on her. I trust myself to make the right call as time goes on; I'd guess that she'll naturally drift away from me anyway, especially if some of her caring has resulted only from my obvious unhappiness with the situation.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Democritus said:


> I'm trying to stay focused on the future


I find it really hard to live in the present when I am dreaming of better days ahead. If today is not good and I am unable to enjoy today, then I suspect that my future is just going to be full of more "grass is greener" ahead thinking, without ever seeing all the good and all the opportunity in front of me right now.

Don't worry about tomorrow; today has enough for you. 

Surprised Conrad hasn't said this: you focus on her too much.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Arendt said:


> I find it really hard to live in the present when I am dreaming of better days ahead. If today is not good and I am unable to enjoy today, then I suspect that my future is just going to be full of more "grass is greener" ahead thinking, without ever seeing all the good and all the opportunity in front of me right now.
> 
> Don't worry about tomorrow; today has enough for you.
> 
> Surprised Conrad hasn't said this: you focus on her too much.


I feel two ways about that sentiment. Obviously, you're right, and I've got to learn to better enjoy the moment, but that's very difficult right now. Given that, I can't help but look ahead to a time when my mind is clearer and I feel over her and accepting of my new family situation.


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## Alpha (Feb 18, 2013)

You spoke to her for another hour again on the phone. She's feeling good about leaving because you are probably nicer to her now than you ever have been. She also likes the idea that you are now friends, what an easy split she thinks. But she doesn't want to discuss relationship because that is no longer in her cards. 

I'm with Sky on this one. You are setting yourself up to a lot of hurt.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Alpha said:


> You spoke to her for another hour again on the phone. She's feeling good about leaving because you are probably nicer to her now than you ever have been. She also likes the idea that you are now friends, what an easy split she thinks. But she doesn't want to discuss relationship because that is no longer in her cards.
> 
> I'm with Sky on this one. You are setting yourself up to a lot of hurt.


I'm definitely being much nicer now than towards the end of things; it's because I recognize the error of my ways over the years, and also because I'd obviously like to convince her to give us another shot.

I know you're right about the continued pain, but I'm just not sure what route to take. She left me everything, so she's out on her own with little money, a junker car, and a very uncertain living situation. She's just started a new career that won't begin to pay off with any regularity for another year at least, so I worry about her general well-being. 

A big part of this for her is proving to herself and to me that she can be self-sufficient (her lack of monetary contribution has sometimes been an issue for us), and I think she's split between resenting my worry, but also clinging to it in knowing that there's safety in it.

Between very much wanting to be as close to her as possible, the small bit of hope that I can't help but hold onto (for now, anyway), the kids, us working together, and my worry about her safety and future, I find it very difficult to even consider cutting off non-essential contact.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Demo,

There's no way you're going to "nice" her out of this.

She will see you as her doormat.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Yeah, I know that's likely true, but, so long as some hope of reconciliation remains in my head, what other tactic is there?

Mostly, I just feel like things will run their course. Now that we've had this new understanding and a bit of extra finality (or as close to finality as my heart can accept right now), I hope that we'll just fall into some routine that suits us both, personally and as parents, without the need to plan or plot or over-think much.

But then, of course I do over-think.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

She doesn't deserve you being nice to her. End of story.

Dude, she *played* you.

And she will continue to do so as long as you show her that her behavior is fully acceptable.

This is obvious to all on the outside, my friend; you are being used so that her fall from grace is an easy one. You're her parachute.

You need to yank the parachute out from under her. When she hits terminal velocity, then she'll realize what she's doing. But right now, you're saying this....

*Yes, I love when you walk all over me. No, of course I love you! Why wouldn't I? You can take my heart and smash it to pieces as much as you like!*

Speaking from experience, man...my ex-charity case did the same nonsense to me.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

@SkyHigh

I do see the wisdom in what you're saying. I will transition myself away from being her parachute to the best of my ability. Given my heart's position, and the fact that's the mother of my kids, it will take time, but I really am done with being vulnerable with her and aiming to please her at all costs.

I just have to find a way to balance it all out.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

One thing that I'm feeling strongly is the need to connect with other people, but after 10 years of focus on nothing but family and work, I find myself without a social network of any kind. 

Not looking to date, but I could see some real benefit in creating a friendly relationship with a woman in similar circumstances - filling a hole, so to speak, and helping me to get my mind off of my ex.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Yeah you need to make friends. You have been dependent on your wife for too long. One person cannot be the source of all of another's happiness. Reconnect with old friends you have slowly lost contact with; find friends and social clubs or religious meetings; maybe a separated person's support group if there is one in your area...Who was your best man and who else stood in your wedding? Those people are candidates for friendship...there are lots of opportunities. 

One thing to avoid: dumping your problems on your new friends. Talk about all kinds of stuff that friends talk about but do not make your marriage the talking point for your friendship. Get a therapist for that.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Another thing: I have learned that being honest with people is the best way to go. When I have reconnected with old friends, I have simply told them how isolated I have become, how dependent I became on my wife for social contact and such, and how when she left I realized that I had nobody to talk to, and that I had become a person I didn't like very much. So I am reaching out to people I have blown off and let slip away for so long to try and reconnect. I'm not looking for somebody to dump my marriage issues on, but for friends to sit and chat with, to watch movies, to have lunch with, etc. People really respond well to that kind of honesty.

However, the some of best people in my life right now are the new friends I have made since the separation. I am really blessed and am amazed at how easy it is to actually make friends.

Also, I read the book, _How To make Friends and Influence People_ by Dale Carnegie to learn that I shouldn't talk about myself too much; should pay attention to what other people are interested in, etc. Also, be happy about their hobbies and such, ask questions and make supportive comments, etc. That is the way to make fiends best; not talking about myself all the time. For me, I had to actually be told (in a book) to smile and remember people's names, etc. I used to say that I am just not good at remembering names. In actuality, nobody was important enough for me to remember their name unless they had something to offer me...

Maybe some of this applies, maybe it doesn't. Just my experience with trying to make new friends and to reconnect.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

@ Arendt

All of it definitely applies, especially now when I'm so consumed with my own troubles and worries - thanks very much for the advice.

The truth is, I really don't even have any old friends to connect with. No best man, no long lost best friends - I've been fairly anti-social my whole life. I'm actually just checking out meetup.com - lots of coffee get togethers and such there, I'm hoping to do something later this week.

I'm hoping that it's as easy as you say to make new friends - I'm not only out of practice, but I really have no experience with it at all!


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Good. Meetup.com is a good start.

I know what you mean. Get that book from the library. Take its advice to heart. I am a similar person to you. I am quite content often to just be by myself. Other people take energy, and I get tired after a while. So I don't try to spend all day talking to people, but having coffee for an hour or something; that is the way to go for somebody like yourself. Start slow and be proud of yourself for every positive encounter you allow yourself to have with other people. 

Now that I have a wider base of people to draw upon, I make sure that at least once per week I have a face-to-face meeting with somebody to just see how they are doing. (I also have AA meetings and a sponsor so I have people twice a week there too). If you can try to make something happen at least once a week that would be good. Right now, while you are hurting, you might want to try to get out even more. Don't sit around at home. Go out, go to a museum, to a riverfront or lakefront and enjoy the view, get into exercise (the gym is also a good place to meet people btw), and think of some hobbies you might be interested in trying. The new friends you will make, what hobbies do they have that you might be interested in too?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Arendt,

I don't have to tell him.

You're doing a superb job.

Both of you should rent the movie Blue Valentine to see what happens when a man "immerses" himself in his wife and family.

Check her reaction.

Hollywood actually telling the truth (one time at least)


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

Keep everything open, EXCEPT when it comes to your STBX. Close that door and keep it locked shut.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

SkyHigh said:


> Keep everything open, EXCEPT when it comes to your STBX. Close that door and keep it locked shut.


There is a part of me that wishes that I could do that, and I assume that part of me will grow over time as I let my logical side take over and accept that my family is out of my reach.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Demo,

You don't owe her a god damn thing.

Don't guilt your way into becoming her doormat or shoulder to cry on. 
If you are hoping to reconcile, this won't get it done. She'll Friend Zone you and destroy any attraction she has for you.

I have been there and telling you from experience.

Get Tough... Establish and maintain boundaries.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> There is a part of me that wishes that I could do that, and I assume that part of me will grow over time as I let my logical side take over and accept that my family is out of my reach.
> 
> In the meantime, I'm going to take it as easy as possible; I had another 30 minutes or so today to sit down with her and share a coffee when she dropped the kids off. We chatted about work, the kids, and life in general, and things went smoothly. Of course, I did require 30 subsequent minutes to overcome the longing it leaves with me, but I'm working to push that away in order to be able to be simultaneously strong and friendly with her.
> 
> A risky approach, I know, but the only one that covers each of the hopeful reconciliation and good parenting angles. Besides, given some of the ways that I've treated her over the years, I really do feel that I owe her a limited amount of support and caring now, and I'm genuinely happy to provide it.


Risky?

Depends on what you're willing to risk.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Risky?
> 
> Depends on what you're willing to risk.


It's my heart and my sanity on the line, but I think I'll be able to find a path that allows me to balance things without hindering my ability to move onward and upwards, even if the emotional pain lasts longer because of it.

A ****ty predicament all around; I feel like there are only choices, none of them particularly appealing. I just need to choose the one that fits my family and situation best and, despite the sentiments of most here on TAM that have been through similar situations, I do still consider her my family.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> It's my heart and my sanity on the line, but I think I'll be able to find a path that allows me to balance things without hindering my ability to move onward and upwards, even if the emotional pain lasts longer because of it.
> 
> A ****ty predicament all around; I feel like there are only choices, none of them particularly appealing. I just need to choose the one that fits my family and situation best and, despite the sentiments of most here on TAM that have been through similar situations, I do still consider her my family.


Then you are on the road to losing her.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Then you are on the road to losing her.


I understand where you're coming from there, and I'll temper my support with a complete lack of neediness and long periods of no personal communication whenever possible, for my sanity and to remind her what life is like without me.

I saw a quote today here on TAM, courtesy of Awakening2012, that seemed fitting to the way that I'm trying to deal with this:

"Not all relationships are meant to last forever. We sometimes outgrow our partner, or our partner goes off in a direction which makes us struggle to stay in step with them. Sometimes, the most responsible thing that you can do is to offer love and compassion to the person as you release the relationship."

This may not be the best path towards "winning" her back, but I'd really rather just be real with her and let her take it from there. If she doesn't find a way to love me again as a result of the love and compassion that I show her, then she's not likely to love me because I'm aloof and uncaring, either.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And bypass all proven methods to increase your attractiveness.

Hey, I'm good with that.

Everybody has a right to their own life - and the bear the consequences of their actions.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

She's walking away. This has been proven. 

Her feelings just won't turn on. She sees you as her buddy, her pal. She'll continue to be nice to you while twisting the knife ever deeper.

All or nothing, my friend. All or nothing.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I'll tell you guys what: my heart forces me to agree to disagree for now, but keep in mind that I'm still working through NMMNG and that I'm definitely looking out for myself as much as possible here. I'm no fool, and I'll work hard to force my heart to line up with my logical mind if and when a more reliable, workable path presents itself to me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

SkyHigh said:


> She's walking away. This has been proven.
> 
> Her feelings just won't turn on. She sees you as her buddy, her pal. She'll continue to be nice to you while twisting the knife ever deeper.
> 
> All or nothing, my friend. All or nothing.


This is how they think.

Always happy to have another "friend"

Also, great to have a babysitter in waiting while out exploring new exciting relationships with posOM's


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Edited for privacy!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> I'm sure she is happy to have a friend - obviously I see that I'm alone and have no one who cares, while she has someone who would still die for her if necessary. But if the only alternative is that we're both alone, and the only price to be paid a slight slowing of my recovery time, then I have to repeat that she does deserve it.


Pedestal alert


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Pedestal alert


What can I say? She's not perfect, and I don't like or necessarily agree with how she's handling this, but she's been good to me despite me for some time now. She belongs on the pedestal, to a degree, and I can only act accordingly.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> What can I say? She's not perfect, and I don't like or necessarily agree with how she's handling this, but she's been good to me despite me for some time now. She belongs on the pedestal, to a degree, and I can only act accordingly.


As long as you think that way, it's over.

I say this from experience.

May want to sit with this concept awhile.

She doesn't want to be on a pedestal.

I guarantee it.

Her next partner won't put here there - count on it.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Ugh.

Sometimes a thread is hard to read.

Demo, you have more chance of winning the lottery jackpot than you do of a future with her following this path.

My story isnt public atm but there are similarities. When I washed up on TAM originally last year, I totally 100% blamed myself. I was an ass. Her faults were minor blahblah. I had her firmly up on a pedestal while I wallowed in the gutter. I was so blinded by desperation to "win her back" I couldn't even see it for the longest time.

Looking back I was a pitiful sack of shyt. I'm sure Conrad would be happy to verify that. 

I want you to step back a minute. While i always preach to own your own shyt, I think you need to look closer at your "happily" married dynamics. the way you behaved is on yourself but, what was going on to trigger you into it.

I ask as, I am 100% to blm for my past actions but my stbx was equally to blame for hers. While we were together though i insisted on owning her shyt aswell as mine. I suspect you are doing the same? 

Blaming yourself makes it easier to bear in a way. It means you can do all the work to fix things. You just set yourself up for a fall. You cannot fix her, only you. You cannot fix you without separating your shyt from hers. She needs to own her own faults and issues but if she never does, that shouldn't affect you.

Get to work on yourself but forget all about her. You need to do this for yourself. Do it right, and a better future is guaranteed. It probably will not be with her though.

One other thing. Every time you are "nice" to her, you reward her for leaving you. "You left me? Sure I'll do that for you, thank you for leaving me, in fact you ROCK for leaving me, thats why i'm so nice to you now!"

If you are happy with being friends carry on as you are. Thats all you will ever be. I mean genuinely happy, not thinking of reconciliation. If being friends is not enough, you need to detach and try to move on. That is where the 180 comes in. It absolutely is NOT for winning her back. It is for protecting yourself going forward.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> As long as you think that way, it's over.
> 
> I say this from experience.
> 
> ...


I think that, after years of not treating her that way, she simply resents it now, but what is your reasoning behind the statement in general? Why wouldn't any woman want to be on a pedestal? Or man, for that matter? I could stand to be adored by someone, I'm sure


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Women don't respect men who put them on pedestals.

They lose respect for men that devalue themselves.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

When you have them on a pedastal, you bow and scrape, you do their bidding.

What they really want is someone man enough to call them on their bullshyt, not swallow it with a smile. If you cannot stand up TO them, how can you stand up FOR them?


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> When you have them on a pedastal, you bow and scrape, you do their bidding.
> 
> What they really want is someone man enough to call them on their bullshyt, not swallow it with a smile. If you cannot stand up TO them, how can you stand up FOR them?


Yes, she definitely does have her own share in things, but my bad behavior was overt, while hers was more along the lines of being emotionally unavailable, along with problems with her contributions to the household (work, housework, etc). She's a bit cold sometimes, and that never sat well with my need for validation or love or whatever, leading me to let things boil over from time to time.

Listen, I get what you're saying. I'm early on enough in this right now that I just miss her, and that definitely leads me to cling more than I know is good for moving forward, or maybe even for winning her back.

Still, if my chances of reconciliation are nil, then I *do* want to be friends, I suppose. The stronger I get as the days pass, the more I see that that may change in the future, but I'm so f*@&ing sad - it's hard to see outside of the sadness sometimes.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Just to add, I know this as i still havent quite got the taste of her shyt sandwiches out of my mouth!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Northern Monkey said:


> Just to add, I know this as i still havent quite got the taste of her shyt sandwiches out of my mouth!


Tabasco helps


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

Women devalue those that put them at high value. 

There is no such thing as "exalting" a spouse. 

You're still idealizing her. She doesn't idealize *you*.

I'm about to grab a 2x4, I really don't want to hit you with it.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

No one ever showed any restraint with me.

I've had whole stacks of lumber dropped on my in my time on TAM!

Sometimes it's the only way to be kind imo.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

I got a few warnings from Conrad before I ended up with a lumberyard burying me alive.

I'm doing the same for Demo.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Democritus:

Just make sure you go out and make friends so your only meaningful human contact each day is not her. It is not fair to yourself or to her to make her this goddess who provides all your needs for social life, emotional security, and physical health. 

You increase your attractiveness when you start working on developing friendships with other people, are not dependent upon her for your daily happiness, and when you get to the gym and start working on your physique. 

Therapy would be a really good experience for you if you open your mind up to it. It could be another place where you connect with somebody, who can help you process these things, and who can give you perspective on life. 

All in all, you simply have to get out there and get your sh!t together. Maybe she will want you back if you do, maybe she will not. Maybe, once you get yourself together, you won't want her back if she has not bettered herself in the meantime. You never know. Focus on this other stuff for now in any case; you will not regret it. 

I would not say to completely cut her out right now, but do a 180 in the sense that you start focusing on your own well-being for a while. She's not used to you doing that. You focus on becoming a better person, regardless of how she responds. You don't run to her every chance you get. You even turn down some opportunities to talk because you have to go our and meet somebody, and you are tired today from all the new things you are learning and starting to try out. Her interest will peak; but don't you dare go make friends, go to counseling, or to the gym for her sake. Do it for yourself; she might come back along if you do. She might not. But you'll be better no matter what.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

@ Arendt

These are all really good points, especially about not making her my only meaningful human contact. I really am taking steps to get out, and I've met some new people - whether or not I can translate that into long-term friendships remains to be seen, but I'm working on it.

I started therapy just two weeks after she left, and I'm well into it, dealing with both inherent issues with stress and anxiety, as well as the separation and its effect on me. That will include some group session stuff over the summer, presenting another opportunity to meet people (even if they're stressed and anxious, too!  ).

I'm also exercising pretty vigorously for the most part, with lots of long walks with the dog and improvement to my physical conditioning.

What I'm trying to do in my communication with her is simply stop being vulnerable and needy, while still cultivating a relationship that reminds her of what we're giving up - and not only to remind her, but because I know that we enjoy one another.

Thanks again - while I understand everyone's position of just staying the hell away from her, your advice is particularly applicable to my situation, given the kids and our continuing positive relationship.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Thats all very positive but, the last sentence..

Cultivating that wont show what she is giving up though, as she will still be getting it. You treat her better than when you were together, you reward her for leaving you.

Just be sure you always check, are you doing it for you. Or are you doing it for her/us/hope. Detachment is golden. Doesn't mean you can't be pleasant and friendly or even want to R down the line but it allows you to be yourself FOR yourself.

You are your own person, she is now just someone that you happen to know.

Question for you. You keep doing this but find out she is dating and banging an OM. How is that going to leave you feeling? Do you think you could still be friends knowing that part of her needs are being met by someone else.

She has fired you. Why continue working for free?


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)




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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> Thats all very positive but, the last sentence..
> 
> Cultivating that wont show what she is giving up though, as she will still be getting it. You treat her better than when you were together, you reward her for leaving you.
> 
> ...


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

That all sounds fair. It takes time to realise you need to do it 100% for you and your future (which of course includes the kids). Does not make R impossible, in fact it seems it is the only way a genuine R has any chance.

Keep moving away from it being for her and towards yourself.

If you cant imagine knowing someone else is knocking boots with her, without wanting to knock out teeth.. you aren't going to be able to be just friends.

Its good your not looking or digging as yes it will only hurt you and hold back your detachment but accept at some point, she is going to move on in that sense.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Northern Monkey said:


> If you cant imagine knowing someone else is knocking boots with her, without wanting to knock out teeth.. you aren't going to be able to be just friends.


Yessir.

This is the one simple fact the women who wish to "be friends" simply do not understand.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

One of the reasons I can't be friends with mine is the fact that she's having sex while still using my last name.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I'm sure my feelings will change substantially if and when I find out that she's carrying on with another guy. If there has to be a straw to break the camel's back, that will be it.

I so deeply hope that it doesn't come to that. Either we reconcile before it gets that far, or she stays alone for the rest of her life - I can't handle any other option


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Just don't be her plan B.

You can be that while she is simply looking, even if she doesn't find and test the waters with plan A. Don't allow it.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I am most definitely, unequivocally not cool with being a plan B, under any circumstances. Unfortunately, it may not be something that I even know of if it is the case.

My position is this: is she wishes to reconcile at any point before I'm aware of something else going on, then I'm going to let our time apart be just that, and not even consider what *could* be going on, just as I am now.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

Nobody likes being Plan B. Unfortunately, selfish spouses keep trying to suck their significant others into it.

Don't be her friend. Don't be her anything. She left. She has to deal with the consequences of her actions. You need to work on yourself. You can, and you will.

When the cloud falls out from under her, she *will* crash. At that point, you are the one who holds the power in this equation. 

Who knows, with time apart, you may find that you don't want her back at all. I know I sure wouldn't.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Been out and made any new friends lately? What's up?


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Arendt said:


> Been out and made any new friends lately? What's up?


Edited for privacy!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> which in turn lead to an inappropriate phone call. We ended up chatting for a couple of hours, but I was generally vulnerable and apologetic throughout. I only hung up about 20 minutes ago, and I can't say that it left me feeling very good.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

@Conrad

I know, I know. I feel very resolved to go back to the more distant and unneedy approach that I managed to hold down for about 48 hours last week. Taking late night drinking while home alone out of the equation will go a long way towards helping that


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> @Conrad
> 
> I know, I know. I feel very resolved to go back to the more distant and unneedy approach that I managed to hold down for about 48 hours last week. Taking late night drinking while home alone out of the equation will go a long way towards helping that


My safe man ripped me long and hard about late night drinking.

The anger just bubbles to the surface and out it comes.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> My safe man ripped me long and hard about late night drinking.
> 
> The anger just bubbles to the surface and out it comes.


Definitely true, and not a constructive long-term path anyway, whether I call her or not. I feel very resolved to cut out drinking outside of social situations altogether. I've always indulged only a few times each year, so turning to booze now is a particularly foolish idea.

If there's one good thing about giving into the urge to call and whine and complain, it's that my resolve is increased greatly in the morning. At least there's a silver lining to the slip-ups.


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## SkyHigh (Jun 17, 2012)

One slip, man. 

You can recover. As long as you don't make a habit out of it.

Kudos to you for cutting out the drinking outside of social situations. You'll be much better for it.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

SkyHigh said:


> One slip, man.
> 
> You can recover. As long as you don't make a habit out of it.
> 
> Kudos to you for cutting out the drinking outside of social situations. You'll be much better for it.


It's a funny thing, booze. Even alone, it has the ability to send my spirits soaring, but the drop can be sudden and devastating. Not worth the bother, especially when drinking socially is fun and distracting and moderate.

In any case, I'm reminded every time I drink exactly why I never did it often before all of this.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Drinking as you are going through this will not help you at all. It will only provide temporary relief for the pain, and may become a crutch. And you might do something stupid to boot. Stay clear of it for now at least. If you find yourself thinking about drinking during this time, consider going to an "open" AA meeting where people who are not alcoholics are allowed to come. Tell them your story and you will get lots of numbers of people to call when you have an urge. They can help you get through this time period in a more healthy way if you need to do it.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Agreed, and thanks for the advice! It's really not much of an urge, rather just me experimenting with something to salve my mental wounds - obviously booze isn't it.

Lucky for me I've never been much of a drinker, or I'd be sloshed 24/7 I think 

I find that my mind is quite settled most of the time lately, but I have a hard time not worrying about what she's doing. Is she seeing someone else? Screwing someone else? Those kinds of thoughts are difficult to beat down once they appear.

I know the general advice will be to forget it because it simply doesn't matter but, even if that's true, it's easier said than done.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

You can't control your thoughts. They come like the wind and go like it the wind. Don't even try to control having them. When they come the best you can do is to remind yourself that you are powerless over these thoughts. That they are natural when you have had such a close relationship with somebody and still care about losing them.

I wonder if the following prayer would help you:
_
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and the wisdom to know the difference._

Even if you don't believe in God really, it is the kind of thought that could help you refocus your mind onto what you can and cannot control in this situation. Can you control her? Can you control what she does? Can you control the situation? What do you have the power to help change? 

Even if she were with somebody else, you will not be destroyed by it; you are working on yourself: you are in counseling; you are getting in physical shape, you are starting to open yourself up to other people in new ways, etc.

Just some thoughts. If you ever want to talk, just pm me. I can Skype.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Arendt said:


> You can't control your thoughts. They come like the wind and go like it the wind. Don't even try to control having them. When they come the best you can do is to remind yourself that you are powerless over these thoughts. That they are natural when you have had such a close relationship with somebody and still care about losing them.
> 
> I wonder if the following prayer would help you:
> _
> ...


All good advice, thanks! I try to throw myself into some quiet meditation when my mind gets away from me, and it helps, but sometimes there's just no stopping it.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Edited for privacy!


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## Alpha (Feb 18, 2013)

My first question is why are you even putting yourself into a social situation that involves your wife? You should be no where near her but it sounds like you are trying to be friends, which is setting you up for a fall because clearly her mind is somewhere else.

Now regarding friends with benefits, there is no such thing. At the start, maybe it can feel that way, but I'm of the opinion that men and women cannot be friends. One side will always feel something different or special. So the supposed guiltless "Last Tango in Paris" will always hurt someone. In your case that would be you considering your fragile state of mind. 

You get it on with your wife, feel great, and something in the back of your head tells you that she still loves you. Now in her mind, you are only friends so she goes ahead and bangs her neighbor. You find out. Do you think you will be in a better emotional state then than you are now? If you want to really mess yourself up, go down that route.

Trust me. I've been there and done that. You don't want to go there.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

Replied to your other thread.

For this one, I think if you request the move by PM to a mod, they can sort it for you. I know it can be done.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I've gone through and edited out the details of my story for the sake of privacy - that's good enough for me.

As for this weekend, I'll play it by ear and see how things go. Whether or not I can emotionally handle such a situation remains to be seen; I can only judge after something does happen - if it does at all.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Yeah, well, things went about exactly as I would have expected. No benefits came into play, but otherwise it was a normal night out, just as we would have shared when we were together. Awesome for the few hours that it lasted, but gut-wrenching from the time I dropped her off (kiss on the forehead, "I love you") and well over the past 30 hours or so.

Time to remove myself from the friend zone, I think - my heart and head just can't take it, and I'm a bit tired of begging for scraps.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Yeah, well, things went about exactly as I would have expected. No benefits came into play, but otherwise it was a normal night out, just as we would have shared when we were together. Awesome for the few hours that it lasted, but gut-wrenching from the time I dropped her off (kiss on the forehead, "I love you") and well over the past 30 hours or so.
> 
> Time to remove myself from the friend zone, I think - my heart and head just can't take it, and I'm a bit tired of begging for scraps.


Cannot say you weren't warned.

Just imagine sitting around as "friends" while you watch her fall in love and start banging someone else.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Cannot say you weren't warned.
> 
> Just imagine sitting around as "friends" while you watch her fall in love and start banging someone else.


It's the "giving up" that never sat well with me, not to mention the giving up of my closest and dearest friend. If I more or less cut her off, I leave myself with nothing in the way of meaningful human contact outside of my kids. That's not the most terrible thing in the world, and will be slowly rectified thanks to the new social things I'm doing, but the very idea of removing the person I love and depend on most in life is tough, especially given that we have young children and will have to "work together" for the next 15 years or so.

I know, I know - this is my heart talking. My head tells me clearly that I'm only holding myself back with all of this; I've just not been able to quiet my heart long enough to listen to it.

I considered giving a speech about why we can't be friends, but I think a more appropriate approach is to simply cut down time spent talking to and seeing her. Between the kids and our continued work together (which should only last a few more weeks), we will need to communicate regularly - I just need to make a stronger effort to keep things out of personal territory and focus on quick logistics instead.

Ugh - wish me luck. I can't see any of this being easy. All I know is that I can't feel this way anymore. I seriously feel like I'm losing my mind, and I'd rather just commit to being alone the rest of my life (or for the foreseeable future, at least) then clinging onto nothing this way.

Your tough approach is hard to swallow sometimes, Conrad, but it is much appreciated - even if it takes some time to really sink in.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

One of my favorite TAM lines is say less, do more. No speechs, no explanations, no justifications. Just do.

As to giving up. You already have. On yourself.

It's ok to put yourself first.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> One of my favorite TAM lines is say less, do more. No speechs, no explanations, no justifications. Just do.
> 
> As to giving up. You already have. On yourself.
> 
> It's ok to put yourself first.


Yeah...just as I get back to read this, I've just hung up the phone with her. She called to talk to the kids, then asked them to put me on in order to wish me luck with something I've got going on today. She proceeded to ask about my thoughts about our time out, and we got into the details a bit.

I just made it clear that we weren't friends, that we could never be friends, and that our differing paths suggested that we should separate from one another a bit more thoroughly. She didn't have much to say about it, and it left me feeling even worse than before, but whatever - it was true, it's going to remain true for a long time, if not forever, and it needed to be said, I guess.

I haven't given up on myself - in fact, I've made some pretty huge personal strides over the past couple of months. But I'm still very much in love with her, and it's not doing me any good to hold onto her when she so obviously does not have any interest in or love left for me.

I'm not sure if this will be the start of something new or different for me, or just another way of feeling temporarily sad. Ah well - it is what it is, I guess.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

How much are those changes for you regardless of a future with her or not?

It's just the impression I had been getting was that your primary goal wasn't to be a better you, but to get her back?


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Well, the two go hand in hand, I suppose. I'm better and will continue to be better regardless of what happens between her and I in the future.

My primary motivation early on was the hope of reconciliation. Now it's just my own future. But the work being done was always the same.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Well, the two go hand in hand, I suppose. I'm better and will continue to be better regardless of what happens between her and I in the future.
> 
> My primary motivation early on was the hope of reconciliation. Now it's just my own future. But the work being done was always the same.


Focus is everything.

Giving with expectations never works.

Ever


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I asked as its exactly what I did.

Making the changes for yourself is actually very different than for her. Even when the change is identical either way, only doing it for you is actually sustainable.

Focus on you.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Very tough night with the kids tonight - missing their mom, lots of tears, lots of questions about why she won't "rejoin" the family. I walk a fine line in talking to them - they're only 7 and 4, after all - but I always work hard to let them say their piece, even if it means admitting to my own wrongs.

My wife, on the other hand, thinks that they should simply get on with it, that we shouldn't indulge their feelings. She ended up getting on the phone with my boy (7) and getting cross with him, which only caused him to become angry and more upset.

Afterwards, I get the whole "you're trying to turn the kids against me" victim talk, accentuated with "you're trying to keep me under your thumb" because of the way that I planned our weekend outing.

Tonight, for the first time since this bull**** began, I find myself realizing that I may just be better off without her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Afterwards, I get the whole "you're trying to turn the kids against me" victim talk, accentuated with "you're trying to keep me under your thumb" because of the way that I planned our weekend outing.


I'm sorry you feel that way.

Practice it.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Yeah, I wasn't that smooth - I did defend the fact that she has never, ever, ever been under my thumbs. But, to my credit, when I recognized the whole rewriting history thing, I backed off immediately as opposed to getting into a fight.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Yeah, I wasn't that smooth - I did defend the fact that she has never, ever, ever been under my thumbs. But, to my credit, when I recognized the whole rewriting history thing, I backed off immediately as opposed to getting into a fight.


Trying to explain yourself to get an unreasonable person to see the "reasonableness" of your argument.

Yeah... right.


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## RonHanh (Feb 13, 2013)

Democritus, I'm a firm believer that we should all fight for our marriages above all else. You should continue to show your wife unconditional love because it's the right thing to do. Regardless of where it leads your marriage you will have done the right thing. You can't control your wife, but you have full control over yourself. I think you should do the right thing based on certain values and principles. In the case of husbands, our job is to love our wives UNCONDITIONALLY. Your wife should be the most important person in your life. If we thought of our wives like this in the first place we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. Keep making the changes to yourself and keep loving her which means be kind to her and be patient with her. Watch the movie "The Love Dare". Maybe you will find it helpful in your situation.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

RonHanh said:


> Democritus, I'm a firm believer that we should all fight for our marriages above all else. You should continue to show your wife unconditional love because it's the right thing to do. Regardless of where it leads your marriage you will have done the right thing. You can't control your wife, but you have full control over yourself. I think you should do the right thing based on certain values and principles. In the case of husbands, our job is to love our wives UNCONDITIONALLY. Your wife should be the most important person in your life. If we thought of our wives like this in the first place we wouldn't be in the mess we are in. Keep making the changes to yourself and keep loving her which means be kind to her and be patient with her. Watch the movie "The Love Dare". Maybe you will find it helpful in your situation.


Just like you did this past weekend.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

It's funny that a firm supporter of a loving approach should clash here with Conrad, the king of the tough approach, because I'm in a position where I very quickly need to pick a path and stick with it.

***

*Pros of Ron's Loving Approach*

1. It comes naturally, because I do love her.

2. It continues to show her the good man that I am, and the better man that I'm becoming.

3. It allows me to retain a friendship with my best friend.

4. It's good for the kids.

*Cons of Ron's Loving Approach*

1. Loving her in this unrequited way is heartbreaking, and threatens to prolong my own pain.

2. Same point in maintaining a friendship; she gets what she wants, I get hurt.

3. Perceived closeness could have the same effect on the kids, specifically my older boy who holds out hope in the same way that I do.

*Pros of Conrad's Tough Approach*

1. Going dark could cause her to miss the parts of me that I know she loves.

2. Going dark could help me to regain a sense of balance in life more quickly.

3. Going dark would keep me from feeling as if I'm throwing myself at crumbs.

4. I've been loving for more than two months now, with no results other than the building of a friendship - not what I'm after here.

*Cons of Conrad's Tough Approach*

1. I lose my best friend.

2. Potentially she sees my darkness as a sign that she's gotten her way in squishing the hope out of me.

3. Going dark would make being fun, amicable parents more difficult.

***

No matter what, I really do feel that I've got to take a black and white approach to this, pick a path, and stick with it. I need to do this for my own sanity, so that I feel like I have a plan instead of playing every moment by ear and hoping for the best (even while usually receiving the worst).

It seems to be that I either commit to a long future of offering unconditional, unexpectant love (outside of a few key scenarios, such as her dating someone else), or I call off the dogs, hunker down, and move on.

Neither is very appealing for its own unique reasons, and I'll continue to work on me with a vengeance in the meantime. Tough choice, but one that I'm determined to make tonight. 

We've got a simple family dinner planned tomorrow night; my first step with Ron's approach would be to go and be cheerful and fantastic, while my first step with Conrad's approach would be to cancel under the guise of an appointment and start going dark from there.

Any other thoughts and opinions, from you guys or anyone else, would be greatly appreciated! I've got tonight only, and it occurs to me that this will be one of the most difficult - and perhaps important - decisions that I ever make regarding the future of my family.

*EDIT:* Posed the same question to the folks who frequent the Reconciliation forum, as well.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You know how YOU felt last weekend.

She was fine with it.

Be good to yourself is Rule #1.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You know how YOU felt last weekend.
> 
> She was fine with it.
> 
> Be good to yourself is Rule #1.


Agreed, and that makes it an easy decision - except that I am more than willing to deal with this kind of pain if I thought it were leading me towards the ultimate goal of bringing my family back together.

I don't mean that in a self-defeating, doormat way, but rather in a way that conveys how strongly I feel about my own responsibility in our breakdown, and my pure want to have my family whole again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> Agreed, and that makes it an easy decision - except that I am more than willing to deal with this kind of pain if I thought it were leading me towards the ultimate goal of bringing my family back together.
> 
> I don't mean that in a self-defeating, doormat way, but rather in a way that conveys how strongly I feel about my own responsibility in our breakdown, and my pure want to have my family whole again.


Read more threads here and check your hypothesis.

Time and again, if the relationship is "working fine" for one of the spouses, there is no incentive to change a thing.

My read is she having you in the friend zone suits her just fine.

She gets all the comfort and security of having you back her up with none of that complicated emotional stuff.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Read more threads here and check your hypothesis.
> 
> Time and again, if the relationship is "working fine" for one of the spouses, there is no incentive to change a thing.
> 
> ...



I think this is a very good point, and it does sit deeply with me as I consider this. I've been nothing if not friend zoned so far. On the other hand, this friendliness does give me the opportunity to spend time with her, which in turn seems to be the only way to show her anything.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Democritus said:


> I think this is a very good point, and it does sit deeply with me as I consider this. I've been nothing if not friend zoned so far. On the other hand, this friendliness does give me the opportunity to spend time with her, which in turn seems to be the only way to show her anything.


Not to show her how much she misses you.

Remember, this is emotional communication.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Not to show her how much she misses you.
> 
> Remember, this is emotional communication.


Another excellent point. I know right now that many things aren't going well for her, namely friendships and money - two areas in which I've always come to her rescue. The timing makes a dark approach seem most valuable, especially after getting nowhere with the loving approach over the past two months.

Side question: if I were to initiate a dark approach starting with canceling this dinner, should I be aloof and mysterious, be honest about what I'm doing, or simply claim to have a forgotten appointment or something?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I followed the book of Conrad.

You must be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

GutPunch said:


> I followed the book of Conrad.
> 
> You must be willing to lose the marriage in order to save it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What was the end result for you with that approach?


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

My story doesn't have an ending yet and each situation is different.

You can read my thread but it is too long.

My wife is home and an open book and is working hard to fix herself
and fix the marriage. 

However, there are no guarantees in this world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Democritus said:


> What was the end result for you with that approach?


Showing strength in the most difficult of times.

Demonstrating that you are not afraid of Divorce.

That's attractive to the other spouse and likely to peek their interest in you once again.

And if it doesn't, you just overcame one of the most gut wrenching times anyone can endure - only to become stronger.

Win Win.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

ReGroup is spot on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Alright, so the message I'm getting here is to go for a mix of the two - staying in contact, but allowing her to initiate. Being strong and confident in the face of all of the ups and downs to come. Continuing to set myself up for success a la ReGroup's "win/win" scenario. Be loving and attentive when the opportunity arises, but don't make myself excessively available.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Full Blown 180 brother.

Detach. Live your life. You do not need her to be happy. If she wishes to join you later, she will let you know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

I don't think that is what we meant.

I meant employ the 180. No contact except
kids and finances. 

Work on yourself. 

When you swap kids, put a big fake smile on and
wear new clothes cologne etc. 

Your life is fine without her.

Do not talk relationship at all until she goes out 
of her way to do it.

If she doesn't, then you are in a better place.

Read the MMSLP book
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

@GutPunch

Tell me more about this MMSLP book? I've read "No More Mr. Nice Guy," and, while there are a few aspects that apply to me, it didn't really fit. I'm many things, but a nice guy isn't really one of them; in fact, it's because I've been the opposite for so long that we're in this mess, really.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Check out the website.

It's pretty interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

First thing you need to do is accept it's over. Your marriage is no more, she really isn't your wife in any way other than you have a scrap of paper.

Step two make yourself happy without her. Learn to be yourself.

Step 3, prosper. There is a small chance it could involve her, more likely it will be you livng a new life without.

The more you do with her in mind, the slower the process.

Stop rewarding her for leaving you. Start rewarding yourself for being fine without her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Northern Monkey said:


> First thing you need to do is accept it's over. Your marriage is no more, she really isn't your wife in any way other than you have a scrap of paper.
> 
> Step two make yourself happy without her. Learn to be yourself.
> 
> ...


You know, when I see great advice like this, it just hurts me that NoWhere won't change his moniker to Southern Monkey


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

I still dont get what you're on about tbh fella!


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Northern Monkey said:


> First thing you need to do is accept it's over. Your marriage is no more, she really isn't your wife in any way other than you have a scrap of paper.
> 
> Step two make yourself happy without her. Learn to be yourself.
> 
> ...


What I'm trying to do for now is take a middle path between the two - I'm doing a tremendous amount of work to help me to prosper no matter what the outcome, while I still work towards reconciliation.

For example, we spent an evening with the kids earlier this week and got supper (she was mostly chilly, not major reconnecting going on) and we're attending a couple of events together for the kids over the next two days.

Now, I do understand that this will set me back in a way if reconciliation never happens - I can feel the sadness creep in the moment I drive away from her, with or without the kids. It's a struggle. But, given my responsibility in the breakdown of our marriage, how much I love her, and how much I want to restore my family, I accept these setbacks as part of the process.

If I ever find myself backtracking with my progress, I'll let go - I'm not going to sacrifice my personal well-being for someone who doesn't love me. But, for the foreseeable future, at least, I've got to continue to make subtle efforts or I'll never have had a chance to bring us all back together at all.

I understand the idea of "manning up" and staying away, but I think there's a different side of that, as well: that is, manning up in order to be a good leader to my wife and kids. It may very well be too late, but I'm man enough to handle the downside of unrequited love in the hope that it's not - temporarily.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

Democritus said:


> But, for the foreseeable future, at least, I've got to continue to make* subtle efforts *or I'll never have had a chance to bring us all back together at all.



They will just push her away further and cause you pain. 

"Manning up" means you show thru action you do not need her to be happy. If she changes her mind, and wants to come along, fine. If not, her loss. 

You are not going to nice her back.

You are not going to subtly nice her back.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

I'm not trying to "nice her back" - I don't want to play any games, I just want to be real about where I stand and what I have to give. One area that I lacked was in being more hands on with the extracurricular activities and social outings that she did with the kids, and so I'm making an effort there because I should - if she notices and thinks it something worth adding to a list of "reasons to reconcile," awesome. If not, I'll still know that I've done the proper, honest thing, for all of us.

In the meantime, my actions do reflect the idea that I don't *need* her to be happy - but if they show simultaneously, for now, the idea that I would be more happy with her, then again, that's only the truth.

Honestly, she can take these gestures how she wants - whichever way things go, I'll be able to look back in six months or a year and know that I was real and open and honest about my position and my commitment. In all my debating about the best path to take, my conclusion is that there simply isn't one - I just need to be honest.

That's not to say that I'm not taking care of myself in the meantime - it would be honest to fire off a string of texts telling her how much I love her and begging her to come home, too, but I don't do that because I see the damage it could cause both of us. So the path I'm taking is based on reserved honesty.


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## GutPunch (Nov 2, 2012)

OK I think you got this under control.

Avoid the #3's. Avoid the relationship talks until 
she clearly demonstrates she wants to have them with you.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

*Re: Re: Wife Left, I'm to Blame - Now Fighting For My Family*



GutPunch said:


> OK I think you got this under control.
> 
> Avoid the #3's. Avoid the relationship talks until
> she clearly demonstrates she wants to have them with you.


This is vital if you are keeping communication so open. Any "us" talk must come from her.

I did much of the same stuff. Stepping up to get her to change her mind, making the changes to me but for her.

There are two main dangers. Letting your focus be on her not you and it won't allow her to miss you.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Democritus,

I think your plan is good. You and I, as you know, have similar personalities and issues that contributed to the breakdown of our marriages (our anti-social attitudes that lead us to be rather cool toward people and our spouses to be precise). So your plan to show you care while still showing that you are a strong individual in your own right is a good one.

I made a big mistake in this separation time by cutting contact with my wife. It only communicated to her that I was still the same old heartless prick who could care only about myself. I regret that move tremendously. On the other hand, the no contact thing allowed me distance to know I can live without her and that I can be a very social, kind, caring person to a wide variety of people if I allow myself to be so. So while I regret the NC I implemented and the damage it has done, it did help me in some ways and I am not sure I could have learned the lessons otherwise.

If I had to do it again, I would talk to my spouse about my reasons for things before I just announced them to her from my throne. The throne is the very thing I have been trying to dismantle, and the way I did NC just reinforced my bad tendencies and image.

It looks like you are not making the same mistake...I hope the best for you my friend.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for the vote of confidence and well-wishes Arendt! I think NC and 180 could do many people alot of good, particularly when infidelity is involved, but, like you, I think that they really don't have much to do with our particular situations, especially so long as reconciliation is the goal.

I'm not sure if my efforts will get me anywhere, and I'll surely suffer further heartache if they don't, but I will establish a better relationship with my (ex)wife, set a good example for my kids, and pave a smoother path to get us through the next decade and a half of raising our kids, together or apart - all well-worth the emotional trouble.

I hope that NC didn't ruin your chances of working things out with your wife; I wish you all the luck in the world with guiding your situation to a happy ending.


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## Northern Monkey (May 2, 2013)

On the other hand I was all out "showing" the new me to my stbx. I didn't detach. I didn't 180, I didn't even go low contact, forget no contact..

End result was the same but I kept myself in pain longer than needed.

If you aren't going NC etc, just don't go too far the other way. You have to give them space to realise what they are missing. 
If you have any hope of reconciliation, it has to come from her. You can't force it.


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## Democritus (May 10, 2013)

And therein lies the truly difficult part, but I'm doing my best. Having the kids with me and fielding their questions and tears about the situation, missing mom, etc, makes it difficult not to reach out to her, either to try and convince her, or simply for support. I've just got to realize that I'm on my own in this area of things, at least for now.

Anyway, definitely agreed - there has to be some distance, and I have to allow myself to create it. Unfortunately, it eats away at my soul as I do


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