# I don't get it Re:Affairs



## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

I know most of us here will agree that none of us get it, but maybe someone does. Or maybe not and I just will always wonder why. 

You know the rules. They are pretty simple. For the most part, cheating = death of the relationship. I view it like murder. Murder = jail for a long time, if not life or even death. Would cheaters commit murder? Obviously not. When they cheat, do they not realize they are doing something that will end the relationship?

I get it in very few instances of maybe battered spouses, or absolutely no connection at all or other fringe instances (that I am not saying it's right, but I sorta get it). 

But I don't understand how a cheater would a) still want to be in the relationship that they are in or b) expect the spouse would continue the relationship. There is a series of steps you need to take to cheat. It HAS to be intentional. I didn't just fall down, and stick my **** in her, tried to pull out but fell in her again and again and again. It is a cognitive choice. If so, clearly everything is done for you. You know the friggin rules. You signed them on day one. I don't get how you would think or even want it not over.

Change your mind? Well, eff you then, you needed to change your mind. Thought you would get away with it? Eff you again. Didn't realize reconciliation would be this hard? I can't believe I made kids with you, they may end up stupid too. Didn't realize I still loved you? What, you cheat on me when you aren't sure how you feel? Eff you 3 times.

Maybe this is harsh, and I am still in limbo in my marriage, maybe cause it wasn't a PA or maybe cause I just haven't sorted everything out yet. But how the hell does someone go out and cheat and not expect the marriage to end. I don't get it.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Have you read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. They way she writes, the marriages are STRONGER after an affair. Makes a person wonder to have an affair to improve the marriage. I am sure most will not agree with that.

You are angry and confused no doubt. You are right to feel that way. 

Your inability to "get it" will prevent any reconciliation. Have you been to IC and MC? 

My wife has a potentially terminal illness. She is depressed, angry, in pain etc. She tells me that unless I had the same illness, I will never understand what she is going through. It is the same with cheating. You might never "get it" but you will need a counseling if you hope to have any chance to stay married. Assuming that is what you want.

You are not going to sort this out alone. You need her to help you. Is she remorseful and willing to move mountains to keep the family together?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

You have a lot to unpack. So let's do it in increments.

One piece of advice that I'll give you today: 

Stop being surprised at the weirdest places that other people find value.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

This isn't angry me questioning this, and to a certain extent I have understood fringe cases. I certainly don't think ANYONE is having an affair to have a stronger relationship after. If that ends up being the case, it is serendipitous if anything. What I am saying is, once you go the affair route, isn't that precluding the notion that the marriage will still exist. Aren't you cognitively bailing on the marriage? I can't fathom a circumstance where I'd go and have sex with someone else and think, my marriage is going to work out one way or another.

Again, I am referring to standard cases where there may be some issues, but nothing where you'd think your spouse would lay with another.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> You have a lot to unpack. So let's do it in increments.
> 
> One piece of advice that I'll give you today:
> 
> Stop being surprised at the weirdest places that other people find value.


So, I shouldn't be surprised that my spouse found value sleeping with another AND somehow my marriage is to survive?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Sadly, insofar as a sheer plethora of the "cheating element" is concerned, stimulated psyches, the thrill of doing something secretive and taboo, and engorged sex organs is foremostly the only excuse they really need!

Marital vows, morals, and family be damned! But that is usually only until such time that their infidelity is found out! *
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Herschel said:


> I can't fathom a circumstance where I'd go and have sex with someone else and think, my marriage is going to work out one way or another.


Yes, you can't fathom that, since you have not cheated. You don't understand and never will.

You need to understand that you will never understand the mind of the cheater. 

Does that help?


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Herschel said:


> So, I shouldn't be surprised that my spouse found value sleeping with another AND somehow my marriage is to survive?



<<Hands up>> Don't shoot the messenger, please.

Getting you into this frame of mind will help you to coolly understand what other people are thinking .... and what other people get off on.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

This kind of applies to many of the bad things that people in world do. I don't get a lot of it other than they were just being bad at the time or in general.

I deal with bad as bad. There are others here who will say that there is always a deeper reason for cheating etc etc. I just think of it as good old fashioned bad, despicable, miserable behaviour and lack of morals, empathy, decency etc. And treat it as such.

I leave the psychoanalysis for the dreamers who think they will find a reason for it and even try and "fix" it.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Yes, you can't fathom that, since you have not cheated. You don't understand and never will.
> 
> You need to understand that you will never understand the mind of the cheater.
> 
> Does that help?


No, because I completely understand moral relativity. I can understand how a terrorist thinks he is doing the right thing by blowing up people in the name of God. I can understand how a child molester cannot control his desires despite knowing it's wrong.

I cannot understand how someone would cheat, and think that the marriage wouldn't be over (if it wasn't over initially by even having the desire to cheat). I question the validity of someone who cheats but still wants to be with the person they cheated on. I also question how they think that doesn't dissolve the contract that they made.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> <<Hands up>> Don't shoot the messenger, please.
> 
> Getting you into this frame of mind will help you to coolly understand what other people are thinking .... and what other people get off on.


I am not arguing that. I am not saying you should or shouldn't cheat, or is isn't somehow fun. All I am wondering is how the cheater thinks that the marriage should continue during the process of cheating. So much lying and uncaringness (yeah, I made that up) and breaking the #1 commandment of marriage. It's a contract and that person ripped it up. I don't see how they want the marriage to even continue. It makes no sense (besides being selfish with their lifestyle or the children, but in terms of pure relationship with their spouse, I don't get it).


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Was your marriage "contract" rigid or flexible? What about "til death to us part"? I do not remember my vows to be "til death do us part or til one of us cheats".

If a wife withholds sex, does that not dissolve the contract and give the H permission to seek it elsewhere?

I have said here before that many affairs are caused by the cheater not getting needs met at home. Many "experts" have said that and IMO they are correct. So how many needs have to be missing from a marriage before the "contract" is dissolved?

BTW: I find it odd that you can understand a suicide bomber better than a typical person who strayed from the marriage.


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

OP-it took me a few years to finally accept that I would also never get why my STBX cheated on me. There are really no answers; and if there were-I am exhausted trying to figure them out. I have days where I still wonder; but it isn't an ongoing thing that left me in limbo hell and wondering if I was doing the right thing by divorcing because if I knew, then maybe I could make it right! Etc., etc. I wish it was just as easy as it sounds. The whys are what will make a BS suffer. Sadly; it is pretty complex but I now think of it as being selfish and not caring what the outcome is in the future. That isn't on me-but it is on him.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Herschel said:


> But how the hell does someone go out and cheat and not expect the marriage to end. I don't get it.



Oh, my ex-husband was completely and utterly _stunned_ when I filed for divorce. Turns out, he'd been a serial cheater for nearly our entire relationship. He, basically, just never thought what he did when I wasn't around was any of my business. He genuinely believed, to his very soul, that what I didn't know couldn't possibly hurt me. He also never intended to leave me for anyone else. Why would he? His marriage and family life had absolutely zero to do with any of his affairs. Not that they were entirely separate, of course, as he was unfaithful with several women in our social or business circles. But more that his cheating and his marriage were simply irrelevant and unrelated to one another. He was quite indignant that I dared to take issue with things that weren't about me and that I shouldn't have ever found out about - like his infidelity. He remained openly resentful for a very long time that I had discovered his cheating and divorced him over it. How could I destroy our family over something that didn't concern me in any way?!? 

So, basically, with serial cheaters you have someone with a _very_ well developed ability to compartmentalize and a _profound_ sense of entitlement, who is also _deeply_ self-centered. 

I assuming there's a bit of that going on with your average one-off cheaters as well. Compartmentalization, entitlement and selfishness. They don't think they'll get caught, they deserve to be happy, their spouse somehow deserves it, or they just aren't thinking of their spouse at all. For the moments that make up every little selfish decision that eventually leads to infidelity, their desires were more important than their marriage or their spouse. They weren't thinking that they were destroying their marriage. They were just following a trail of tempting ego kibbles, without thinking things through much at all.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Was your marriage "contract" rigid or flexible? What about "til death to us part"? I do not remember my vows to be "til death do us part or til one of us cheats".


At any point, early on in your relationship, did you think the marriage wouldn't be over if you cheated. And I am not saying it is just one sided. I don't get how you would still want to be with your wife if you cheated (again, you have some additional issues that cloud things. I am talking about a regular, 15 year marriage happy standard marriage).



> If a wife withholds sex, does that not dissolve the contract and give the H permission to seek it elsewhere?


If a wife "withholds" sex, then he should leave her. If she is incapable or other issues, he should probably talk to her first about it. If she says to him, "You cannot have sex with me or anyone else!" then he should probably leave her.



> I have said here before that many affairs are caused by the cheater not getting needs met at home. Many "experts" have said that and IMO they are correct. So how many needs have to be missing from a marriage before the "contract" is dissolved?


It's not about needs. If you are implying that the other person violated the contract, which then gives you just cause to violate it yourself, then, I don't even know why you were married anymore anyway. All I am simply stating, is once you are at the point you are willing to dip your willy elsewhere, you should expect your marriage to be done (either because you want out, or your betrayed spouse does).



> BTW: I find it odd that you can understand a suicide bomber better than a typical person who strayed from the marriage.


I am certainly odd, but I tend to think of a suicide bomber as brainwashed and think that they are doing good. No cheating spouse has ever thought they were doing better for the marriage. That just ain't so. If you are willing to go out for some strange, then how could you still want to be with the person you are with. I cannot reconcile that.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

OP, you are right on all points except you are seeing this from a logical point of view. Because in most cases emotions are involved, the cheater is not thinking they way he should but is instead thinking the way he wants.

Many people are weak. They are strong enough to just end the marriage. In fact they may find comfort in other areas of the marriage that still work. But they are left with an overwhelming unfulfilled need and when a way is found to meet that need, the affair happens.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Herschel said:


> Maybe this is harsh, and I am still in limbo in my marriage, maybe cause it wasn't a PA or maybe cause I just haven't sorted everything out yet. But how the hell does someone go out and cheat and not expect the marriage to end. I don't get it.


I agree! But there are those that the context of their marriage may be very different:


Two nonexclusive people playing around that produce a child and decide to marry and try to make it work.
The marriage was done for legal reasons (insurance or citizenship).
There is a drastic age difference (20 years) that begins to have an impact on each partner's desire as the relationship continues.
It was an arranged married and neither partner was never attracted to his/her spouse. Both know this and try to make things work because of family traditions and social expectations. 

In the situations listed above, one can see that the dynamics would likely be very different in each case in the event one person cheated.

Badsanta


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## rzmpf (Mar 11, 2016)

Herschel said:


> I am certainly odd, but I tend to think of a suicide bomber as brainwashed and think that they are doing good. No cheating spouse has ever thought they were doing better for the marriage. That just ain't so. If you are willing to go out for some strange, then how could you still want to be with the person you are with. I cannot reconcile that.


Terrorists have a cause, they want to help the cause with their actions (and may do it for ego purposes, money, fame, afterlife etc.)

Cheaters may claim that they want to help the marriage but their cause is not the marriage, it's themselves. They want to feel good, so they are doing what they have to do. If they felt that the contract was breached (by lack of attention, sex etc) they would just move on like many couples do that get divorced/separated for all these reasons other than cheating. But they don't, they cheat.

You just need to assign cheaters the right cause, themselves and not the marriage and it starts to make sense. That's why they want to have an affair and the marriage, both are good for them.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Yes, you can't fathom that, since you have not cheated. You don't understand and never will.
> 
> You need to understand that you will never understand the mind of the cheater.
> 
> Does that help?


Methinks he doth protest too much. You are the one projecting here in order to continue to walk the fence of genuine remorse and remorseless absolution.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Are you asking how do cheaters think to themselves, "Gee, I think I will make my marriage even better by cheating!"? They don't. They have a litany of half truth and made up fantasy that allows them to think only of themselves and what they want right now. Gee I am going to formulate an action plan to save my marriage is not even in it. It is sometimes referred to as the fog, where the CS makes up all these mind stories about the BS. And then when the BS can say WTF, the WS might finally see the light.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Herschel said:


> *There is a series of steps you need to take to cheat. It HAS to be intentional.* I didn't just fall down, and stick my **** in her, tried to pull out but fell in her again and again and again. It is a cognitive choice. If so, clearly everything is done for you. You know the friggin rules. You signed them on day one. I don't get how you would think or even want it not over.


I have said may times here tha *cheating is a intentional act* to hurt your spouse/partner. Cheaters have argued with me on this over the years, telling me I was wrong in assuming that, and "you don't know what was going through my mind". The best for me is: "I don't know why I did it" and "At the time I wasn't thinking about my husband/wife". All bull***t.

I say it's an intentional act to hurt your partner because everyone knows that when you do cheat, and your spouse finds out about it, they will be devastated. You know full well that it will hurt them, but you do it anyway. Therefore, when you do it, knowing it will hurt them, you intentionally set out to hurt your partner. Simple. 

That's why i have no issues with revenge after a physical infidelity.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I agree! But there are those that the context of their marriage may be very different:
> 
> 
> Two nonexclusive people playing around that produce a child and decide to marry and try to make it work.
> ...


Those are fringish cases, that I am not talking about. I am merely talking about situations where two people have entered into a marriage wanting and expecting to die together.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

The Middleman said:


> I say it's an intentional act to hurt your partner because everyone knows that when you do cheat, and your spouse finds out about it, they will be devastated.


I am mixed on this as your spouse would be devastated if you had your schlong hanging out, ready to put it to work, you called them and said "divorced, divorced, divorced". Or more eloquently, any spouse would feel the pain if you just said I want to get divorced without cheating (even if you then wanted to bed someone right after).

So, it is definitely intentional as you are taking steps to go against every tennent of marriage (and even if you don't believe in the concept of marriage, you did go into it originally, and you gave your word to your spouse). I don't know if it is to intentionally hurt your spouse, but I cannot see how anyone would want to continue marriage after taking such a massive step like this. "I wish I never did it". What? Where was that for the month or whatever you were banging someone behind my back (figuratively I hope). 

I think the wayward spouse that wants back is thinking more of their lifestyle (how there would likely not be an equivalent with the new person), house, finances, loneliness, kids, and all. But I just don't see how they can go from what they were doing to, I LOVE YOU SO MUCH I AM SORRY. You may not want to me unmarried in general, but I don't see how it is possible to want to be married specifically to your spouse anymore.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

I honestly do not think my husband would cheat. But as of today, I really can't say that I would for sure leave him if he did. I don't know what I would do. 

I guess all of us have different aspects of cheating that we just can't understand. Mine is with reconciling. How can the same person who betrayed you EVER comfort you regarding what you are going through? If you trigger, how in the world can that person who betrayed you comfort you by taking you in their arms? That's the part of cheating I can't understand.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

The Middleman said:


> I have said may times here tha *cheating is a intentional act* to hurt your spouse/partner. Cheaters have argued with me on this over the years, telling me I was wrong in assuming that, and "you don't know what was going through my mind". The best for me is: "I don't know why I did it" and "At the time I wasn't thinking about my husband/wife". All bull***t.
> 
> I say it's an intentional act to hurt your partner because everyone knows that when you do cheat, and your spouse finds out about it, they will be devastated. You know full well that it will hurt them, but you do it anyway. Therefore, when you do it, knowing it will hurt them, you intentionally set out to hurt your partner. Simple.
> 
> That's why i have no issues with revenge after a physical infidelity.


This is not a very cogent logical argument. I know that if I go to the grocery store, I will run in to a bunch of people. My intent is not to run into a bunch of people. My intent is to get groceries. Nonetheless run into people I will. That has nothing to do with my intent. I allow the running into people to happen, for sure.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> This is not a very cogent logical argument. I know that if I go to the grocery store, I will run in to a bunch of people. My intent is not to run into a bunch of people. My intent is to get groceries. Nonetheless run into people I will. That has nothing to do with my intent. I allow the running into people to happen, for sure.


There is a big difference between running into people in a store, and putting you schlong into another person. One is a conscience act, the other isn't. Sorry, but if my argument isn't cogent, yours is less cogent than mine. if you know what the end result is going to be before you do something, doing that thing is intentional.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

thefam said:


> How can the same person who betrayed you EVER comfort you regarding what you are going through?


Everyone struggles with this. So much pain is caused by the outside that you need your spouse for. This is the worst pain imaginable (barring death) and how could they comfort you. They caused it. They lied to you. 

I was just talking about paradoxes with the kids, and they were asking about any other paradoxes besides "time paradoxes". I tried to explain that even that paradox isn't real since it is just a concept because we can't travel through time. I think this is an emotional paradox. The person you need to comfort you the most is the one who caused the problem and thusly, cannot comfort you. I don't know if that has been deemed before, but I like it.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

The Middleman said:


> There is a big difference between running into people in a store, and putting you schlong into another person. One is a conscience act, the other isn't. Sorry, but if my argument isn't cogent, yours is less cogent than mine. if you know what the end result is going to be before you do something, doing that thing is intentional.


My example is a drunk driver trying to get home. He knows he is drunk and doing wrong but does not care. His intent is to get home. He hits another car and kills the other driver. That is the result, but was not his intent. He really never gave any thought about killing another person. Is that a better example?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> My example is a drunk driver trying to get home. He knows he is drunk and doing wrong *but does not care*. * His intent is to get home.* He hits another car and kills the other driver. That is the result, but was not his intent. He really never gave any thought about killing another person. Is that a better example?


Yes.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> My example is a drunk driver trying to get home. He knows he is drunk and doing wrong but does not care. His intent is to get home. He hits another car and kills the other driver. That is the result, but was not his intent. He really never gave any thought about killing another person. Is that a better example?


Much better, thank you. And the drunk driver should lose his licence, have his car taken away from him or wind up in jail ... especially if he is a repeat offender. It still doesn't change my mind about a physical infidelity (or emotional) being an intentionally hurtful act. Only the most uncaring of people can go into that and not think of the downstream ramifications. Sorry, it's just the humble opinion of a very judgmental person.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Herschel said:


> Those are fringish cases, that I am not talking about. I am merely talking about situations where two people have entered into a marriage wanting and expecting to die together.


Marriages like that are probably more common than you think. Just like many people have many different religious values (if they even have any), you find the same variances on what people value in marriages. 

Many people probably get married just because it is a social norm to find a partner and get married. 

Have you never heard of the bridezilla (WOW my computer recognized and autocorrected my spelling of bridezilla!!!!!!) that puts all her focus on a fairly tale wedding and no focus on creating a sustainable relationship after the big day?

...anyway my point being is that if some people are not 100% invested in their relationships with their spouse, then it is possible for them to NOT be 100% devastated. So if a spouse only consists of about 20% of the things you care about, but the fallout from a divorce would impact 100% of the things you care about, you choose to work things out!

...then there are those that hold onto their vows no matter what to prove they are a good person. If their partner cheats and then even tries to leave, they will maintain that they are still married and have not abandoned the relationship just because something horrible has happened and they need to prove to themselves that it was not because of something that they did wrong.

Badsanta


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Herschel; said:


> Maybe this is harsh, and I am still in limbo in my marriage, maybe cause it wasn't a PA or maybe cause I just haven't sorted everything out yet.


There's your real question. 

How about we talk about that instead of abstract conceptualizing that won't help you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

marduk said:


> There's your real question.
> 
> How about we talk about that instead of abstract conceptualizing that won't help you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's fine and I cover it in my thread. Maybe I shouldn't have personalized this, but there is cognitive dissonance regarding trusting a spouse and believing what I wrote here.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Herschel said:


> That's fine and I cover it in my thread. Maybe I shouldn't have personalized this, but there is cognitive dissonance regarding trusting a spouse and believing what I wrote here.


How is any answer about the concept of cheating going to help get you out of limbo?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Herschel said:


> When they cheat, do they not realize they are doing something that will end the relationship?


1) It's an exit affair and they want to or don't care if they get caught.

2) It's to cake eat and they think they are way too smart get caught.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

marduk said:


> How is any answer about the concept of cheating going to help get you out of limbo?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never said that was my intention. I just wanted to see if anyone could somehow explain to me how anyone would think that them stepping out would end in any other way than divorce. I just don't understand why a cheater would do that and still want to continue the marriage.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

BetrayedDad said:


> 1) It's an exit affair and they want to or don't care if they get caught.
> 
> 2) It's to cake eat and they think they are way too smart get caught.


I understand 1. My question is 2. Why? Why would you want to be in a marriage where you want to eff around? (under the presumption that you were in it for fidelity originally). I don't get that at all.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Herschel said:


> I understand 1. My question is 2. Why? Why would you want to be in a marriage where you want to eff around? (under the presumption that you were in it for fidelity originally). I don't get that at all.


Because they think what you don't know can't hurt you.

For them, upsetting you is the actual crime not the cheating.

But if you don't know, you won't get hurt and then they get what they want.

Ever steal a cookie as a kid from the cupboard? You enjoyed the cookie right?

And you're mom didn't get mad at you, cause she never found out, so it was win/win.

You still loved your mom but you just really wanted the cookie and for her not to be mad.

Well..... it's a REALLY fvcked up version of that.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Herschel said:


> I never said that was my intention. I just wanted to see if anyone could somehow explain to me how anyone would think that them stepping out would end in any other way than divorce. I just don't understand why a cheater would do that and still want to continue the marriage.


I once overheard a woman advising another woman to have an affair to make her marriage better. Because it awoke her sexually and made her happy, which made the marriage better. 

I think I also saw that in a movie once. 

People can convince themselves of almost anything. There's still people that believe the world is flat or that women shouldn't get to vote. 

Doesn't mean it's indicative of anything except humanity's endless capacity for self delusion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Why do people cheat?

Well, let's put a little ring fence around people who get so drunk that they end up in bed with someone they aren't married to.

And people who are victims of CSA, or of rape (there's evidence their "cheating" is a result of them trying to repair their own psyche with sex with random people. This doesn't matter if they aren't married, but causes problems, naturally, when they still do this after marriage.

And those with personality disorders, too, perhaps?

But in truth, most people who cheat do so because they want to.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Herschel said:


> I never said that was my intention. I just wanted to see if anyone could somehow explain to me how anyone would think that them stepping out would end in any other way than divorce. I just don't understand why a cheater would do that and still want to continue the marriage.


Because they didn't expect to get caught?


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Herschel said:


> I know most of us here will agree that none of us get it, but maybe someone does. Or maybe not and I just will always wonder why.
> 
> You know the rules. They are pretty simple. For the most part, cheating = death of the relationship. I view it like murder. Murder = jail for a long time, if not life or even death. Would cheaters commit murder? Obviously not. When they cheat, do they not realize they are doing something that will end the relationship?
> 
> ...


I don't get it either. Well I do and I don't. 

I get why some people cheat and still want to be married -- that one's easy - they are of the "I am selfish and immature and didn't think I would get caught." variety.

I also understand why some people want to restore their marriages, especially if they have children together and other strong ties. And I believe that a marriage can be better/stronger after recovery than before.

And I do believe a lot of spouses do nothing to meet their partners needs, and don't listen when the partner complains, then are shocked and outraged when their partner cheats (though why does that partner want to stay, I don't know. And why didn't the separate/divorce first?)

BUT I would say that while I agree an Emotional Affair is "cheating" on the relationship in that you're letting someone other than your spouse be most important to you, I just do NOT see it the same way as I do a physical affair. I guess if my spouse is saying "I love you and want to have sex with you" that's bad. But if it's just "I can talk to you, you understand me and my spouse does not." - that type of emotional affair I believe I could recover from with a willing spouse. One who screwed someone else? Unless I had small children, I don't think I would even try. But apparently it's worth it for many.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> But in truth, most people who cheat do so because they want to.


Plus, it is much easier to cheat these days.

I would never cheat on my W, but honestly, if I was determined to cheat I don't think I would have much of an issue just sitting at my PC to get things started. Before all this social media stuff I would have to actually go out to a bar or something to meet a woman, that would scare the crap out of me lol.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> Have you read "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. They way she writes, the marriages are STRONGER after an affair. Makes a person wonder to have an affair to improve the marriage. I am sure most will not agree with that.
> 
> You are angry and confused no doubt. You are right to feel that way.
> 
> ...


I cant agree with that author, the relationship will never be the same again, if it does last. The trust has been shattered and the intimacy shattered.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I cant agree with that author, the relationship will never be the same again, if it does last. The trust has been shattered and the intimacy shattered.


Nah! Not always! 

EI and B1.

My wife and I.

There are other examples on TAM where cheating has been gotten through, if not gotten over, and they are still married and doing good.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Herschel said:


> I understand 1. My question is 2. Why? Why would you want to be in a marriage where you want to eff around? (under the presumption that you were in it for fidelity originally). I don't get that at all.


First of all, to any poster who is not a cheater you have no idea what you are talking about and should not be answering this question. 

Second, to those of you referring to cheaters as "They" like they are some alien creature, cheaters are in fact your family members, your neighbors, your coworkers, your politicians, your presidents, your sports stars etc. 

Third, every situation is different and there is no one answer to this question.

Last, it does not matter what answer anyone gives you will not believe it or get it.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

blueinbr said:


> First of all, to any poster who is not a cheater you have no idea what you are talking about and should not be answering this question.
> 
> Second, to those of you referring to cheaters as "They" like they are some alien creature, cheaters are in fact your family members, your neighbors, your coworkers, your politicians, your presidents, your sports stars etc.
> 
> ...


Really? Are you honestly going to be self-righteous about this? You're less than 2 weeks into a rather belated no-contact with your EA partner of 2+ years and have had a couple IC sessions. Yet you imagine that other people - many of whom have done years of intensive reading, study, IC and MC to understand themselves and/or their wayward spouses - can have nothing to offer on the topic because they were not unfaithful themselves? Really?

:slap:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Nah! Not always!
> 
> EI and B1.
> 
> ...


 I can only speak for myself and I know that something would have been lost that could never be found again. Trust and honesty are so vital for me. I know many who cheated and for nearly all of them it was the beginning of the end of the marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

blueinbr said:


> First of all, to any poster who is not a cheater you have no idea what you are talking about and should not be answering this question.
> 
> Second, to those of you referring to cheaters as "They" like they are some alien creature, cheaters are in fact your family members, your neighbors, your coworkers, your politicians, your presidents, your sports stars etc.
> 
> ...


I think that everyone has ideas, thoughts and opinions about this subject even if they/we havent cheated. I know loads of people who cheated and loads of marriages that ended because if it, many of them in my own family including my own father, 3 sisters in law and my husbands first wife. Maybe thats partly why I will never understand or fathom why anyone would do this. Its not just the act itself that is bad enough, but the terrible consequences of marriages ruined and lives of spouses and children broken. 

To my mind there is no excuse ever. I do have a little sympathy if the other spouse has refused sex for years(which was the case with one couple I know)but otherwise no.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cheating is blatantly stupid and illogical.

Anyone desperate, lowly or messed up enough to be engaging in an affair isn't firing on all cylinders anyway.

Logically, they are destroying their marriage but are about as brilliant as asparagus while fvcking around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
relationships and people are complicated and so are peoples reasons for cheating. 

Some people are in marriages that they don't feel that they can leave (due to children etc), but feel ignored disrespected and taken for granted by a spouse. When they meet someone who appears to care about them, respect them, and be attracted to them, it can seem like the most wonderful thing in the world. It fills a void that their partner has left.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I can only speak for myself and I know that something would have been lost that could never be found again. Trust and honesty are so vital for me. I know many who cheated and for nearly all of them it was the beginning of the end of the marriage.


We lose the blind trust in our partners that we had. 

But it is possible to rebuild something else with your spouse.

Please check out the recent thread by B1. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

​


ConanHub said:


> Cheating is blatantly stupid and illogical.
> 
> Anyone desperate, lowly or messed up enough to be engaging in an affair isn't firing on all cylinders anyway.
> 
> ...


Sometimes they wake up and think: "What the heck have I done? I don't even LIKE asparagus?!"  
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> ​
> Sometimes they wake up and think: "What the heck have I done? I don't even LIKE asparagus?!"
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Lol
True
I think you can rebuild after an affair. I am doing it myself with my H after he cheated. However I am finding that it isn't the same...its different. We will be ok but we are going to be different forever because at one point there was a fundamental shift in the marriage and it does shake the marriage. 
Counseling lets you get rid of the hurt and anger. Yes you learn how to rebuild trust and intimacy but there will always be something different. 
I'm not saying that different is bad just there is a shift.
There is a part of me longs for who I was before all the the affair rubble came into the mix and there is part of me that loves that I've become more independent and much much stronger.

I don't know...in a nut shell affairs suck for both parties and the aftermath sucks even more and sometimes you can rebuild and sometimes you can't. Everyone and every situation is unique.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Rowan said:


> Really? Are you honestly going to be self-righteous about this? You're less than 2 weeks into a rather belated no-contact with your EA partner of 2+ years and have had a couple IC sessions. Yet you imagine that other people - many of whom have done years of intensive reading, study, IC and MC to understand themselves and/or their wayward spouses - can have nothing to offer on the topic because they were not unfaithful themselves? Really?



I posted part of this today in another thread: 

I have not come to terms with my transgression and am in denial. I do not believe I am the person described when posters talk about cheaters. I do not want to be that person and thus I am fighting back. 

I have been trying to see myself as the remorseful cheater, the good kind that had learned from this, but that is really not true, at least not yet. I have much work to do on myself and much to do on my marriage and with my wife.

My wife told me that until/unless I walk a day in her shoes, I have no idea of the pain she is going though. She is right. I cannot understand her pain, and that is why I think/thought that the betrayed likewise cannot understand the cheater. I at least am not at point where I can understand my wife's pain. 

I will do better just to read this thread and develop empathy for the betrayed rather than try to defend or explain my actions. There is no defense and no explanation, other than selfishness.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

citygirl4344 said:


> I don't know...in a nut shell affairs suck for both parties and the aftermath sucks even more and sometimes you can rebuild and sometimes you can't. Everyone and every situation is unique.


Most of us have been around long enough to know this before it occurs. Maybe there is no answer, and I get that. I just don't see how you could go about having an affair and still want to be with the person you are with on an intimate level. Not a this life is good I don't want to give it up level, but on an intimate one. 

Marriage is 100% about intimacy to me. I am not religious, so I don't care about those undertones. It is a made up construct, but something that two individuals go in together and declare that they will honor each other. I can get a roomate. I could probably get someone who could split all the household chores with me. I could probably get someone who will have sex with me (if I pay enough). But marriage brings the intimacy. Physical and emotional and that is what I chose with that person. Once someone goes outside for that, I don't understand how they are capable of then wanting it back with the other person, or even expect the other person to want it with them.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Herschel said:


> Most of us have been around long enough to know this before it occurs. Maybe there is no answer, and I get that. * I just don't see how you could go about having an affair and still want to be with the person you are with on an intimate level. * Not a this life is good I don't want to give it up level, but on an intimate one.
> 
> Marriage is 100% about intimacy to me. I am not religious, so I don't care about those undertones. It is a made up construct, but something that two individuals go in together and declare that they will honor each other. *I can get a roomate.* I could probably get someone who could split all the household chores with me. I could probably get someone who will have sex with me (if I pay enough). But marriage brings the intimacy. Physical and emotional and that is what I chose with that person. * Once someone goes outside for that, I don't understand how they are capable of then wanting it back with the other person, or even expect the other person to want it with them.*


My marriage lacked any intimacy before my EA. We are roommates. I WANT to be intimate with my wife again (both emotional and physical) but am struggling on how to do that. She wants the same and I am sure she is struggling too.

Why do I want to intimate? I realize now what I was/am missing from my marriage. I want my needs and my wife's needs to be met by us and no one else. I don't want a divorce and neither does my wife.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> I posted part of this today in another thread:
> 
> I have not come to terms with my transgression and am in denial. I do not believe I am the person described when posters talk about cheaters. I do not want to be that person and thus I am fighting back.
> 
> ...


It is not just about empathy. You are still in fog. And, as you say, denial. You don't have much of a reflective vision to share. Right now you are in fight or flight mode.


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## citygirl4344 (Mar 4, 2016)

Herschel said:


> Most of us have been around long enough to know this before it occurs. Maybe there is no answer, and I get that. I just don't see how you could go about having an affair and still want to be with the person you are with on an intimate level. Not a this life is good I don't want to give it up level, but on an intimate one.
> 
> 
> 
> Marriage is 100% about intimacy to me. I am not religious, so I don't care about those undertones. It is a made up construct, but something that two individuals go in together and declare that they will honor each other. I can get a roomate. I could probably get someone who could split all the household chores with me. I could probably get someone who will have sex with me (if I pay enough). But marriage brings the intimacy. Physical and emotional and that is what I chose with that person. Once someone goes outside for that, I don't understand how they are capable of then wanting it back with the other person, or even expect the other person to want it with them.




True I was just dumbing it down to the basics lol.
I agree that marriage is about intimacy.
When someone strays one of the most common reasons is they feel they have become roommates and there is a lack of intimacy.
Having said that I think you can rebuild that.
People change over the years you are with them and I think you every now and then almost have to have a new beginning when things get stale.
Date nights, talking, getting g to know how your partner had truly evolved or in some cases devolved through the years and creating an even stronger connection with them. Thereby increasing your intimacy level. 

You wonder how you could even think about trying to rebuild that or want to if someone strays. Many many reasons. In my case we do truly love each other but let things go downhill...stopped working. We have small children.. Not advocating for staying in relationship because of the children but they played a part in the decision to work on things. We saw that it was both our faults. Yes he strayed...the ultimate wrong but there is fault with both parties. Not that it justifies him straying just makes it easier to understand.
So you rebuild trust and rebuild intimacy if you feel that it is truly worth it.


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