# Rock and Hard Place



## JackOfSpades (Mar 9, 2020)

Hi. I'm new here (long-time lurker) and I'm in a real pickle. Hoping someone can give me good advice.

I have been married for 8 years. I have two sons, aged 6 and 4. My wife stays at home to care for them; she's never really had a career, and has no job skills or higher education. Other than my former high-stress job at a law firm, life was pretty good until recently.

About a year ago, I became suspicious of my wife. She was buying sexy thong underwear and never wearing it for me. She also stopped having sex with me, claiming over and over that she didn't feel well. I hid a voice-operated recorder in her car, and caught her end of a telephone conversation in which she was telling some man that she was recently divorced and she couldn't wait to see him again. This was the only suspicious conversation I was able to capture.

I was devastated and felt so betrayed. I confronted her and she gaslighted me, saying that she had only said that stuff because she knew that I had hidden the recorder (I doubt that) and she wanted to teach me a lesson about snooping. I asked her to show me her phone, and she refused. She told me that nothing untoward had happened sexually with anyone else. I told her that it didn't really matter to me whether she followed through with her attempt at adultery, because the attempt was enough to ruin our marriage. I told her I wanted a divorce.

She became angry and started yelling nasty things at me, telling me that my **** wasn't big enough to satisfy her. I yelled back at her. She called the police and falsely accused me of attacking her. The police came to our home and looked at my hands. There were no marks on my hands or on her body. Nevertheless, the police told me that I needed to leave the house or they would have to arrest me. So I left.

I rented an apartment a couple miles away in the same town. I got an attorney and filed for divorce. My wife got a temporary restraining order against me based on her false allegations of domestic abuse. The court ordered me to see a personal counselor, and to attend domestic abuse prevention classes. I did both.

During our multiple court battles over custody, my financial situation became strained--my attorney isn't cheap, nor is my wife's (who I had to pay for), and the court had ordered me to start paying spousal and child support--and the stress of it all (in addition to the time I had to spend not working while at counseling and at the classes) caused my performance at my former high-stress job (I was an associate lawyer at a law firm) to suffer. I got word from one of my friends at the firm that the partners were planning to fire me for my recent poor performance, and that I better find another job. So I went job hunting. All of this is while the divorce is still pending.

Luckily, with the help of some former colleagues, I recently got a new job as in-house counsel at a big tech corporation. I love that I no longer have to worry about billable hours, and the 9-to-5 aspect of it has literally saved my life. I think I would have had a heart attack or a nervous breakdown if I had kept working those long hours at the law firm. The only downside is the lower pay. I earn about two-thirds of what I used to. There's no way that I could keep paying the amount that the court had ordered on my new lower salary.

My attorney asked the judge to lower the amount of support I had to pay due to my changed circumstances. I was shocked when the judge said that he was going to impute income to me as though I were still earning the much higher amount that I formerly earned at my high-stress law firm job. My attorney says that we can appeal, but it will take a long time and be expensive, and have a low chance of success. Meanwhile, I will still be on the hook for the higher amount of support. My attorney says that if I don't pay, the judge can find me in contempt, and I can be thrown in jail. Frankly, I don't have any more money left to even pay my attorney to file an appeal.

After we got out of court, my wife called me and asked me to drop the divorce action and come back home. She is getting very ill from diabetes and says she needs my help. I don't want to come back home to this cheater, but I also don't want to go to jail. I can't pay the higher support amount and still make rent on my apartment. I have no more money to pay my lawyer. I have no family or support system in this state. I don't know what to do.


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## maquiscat (Aug 20, 2019)

JackOfSpades said:


> Hi. I'm new here (long-time lurker) and I'm in a real pickle. Hoping someone can give me good advice.
> 
> I have been married for 8 years. I have two sons, aged 6 and 4. My wife stays at home to care for them; she's never really had a career, and has no job skills or higher education. Other than my former high-stress job at a law firm, life was pretty good until recently.
> 
> ...


Check and see what filing bankruptcy can do to aid. It can sometimes force a reevaluation and if both else, no other debt bills.

Sent from my cp3705A using Tapatalk


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

Devastating post Jack, I can't imagine the reality you find yourself in ... so many of us men have had the threat of false-accusations used against us, to hear a first-hand account of how it is weaponized and encouraged by the state is appalling, And seemingly just to get you to drop the D suit and fall back into line as her provider, I don't have the words.

I can only imagine the parental-alienation going on to turn your kids against you ... I assume you are no longer able to see your children, but the damage she is likely doing to them is palpable.

Any abusive behavior before her affair? This kind of cruelty smells like 'personality issues'.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Your wife is a complete POS. She'd rather see you broke and penniless in the gutter than act like a decent human being and stop milking you for every cent you have. What a nasty piece of work.

But the boom line is that you're her meal ticket, aren't you? And she stands to gain considerably MORE with you in the house than with you living elsewhere and not able to hand her all the money she wants every month. So miraculously, she suddenly wants you back. What a lying opportunist.

I highly doubt diabetes has suddenly and tragically struck out of *nowhere* and has brought her to her knees. Most people with Type 1 diabetes *know* how to manage it and they do so throughout their adult lives, so where is this sudden "I'm on my death-bed from diabetes and I need you to take care of me" crap come from? I was married to a diabetic who hadn't managed his diabetes at *all *before I met him and he was not in good health, but still managed to go to work every day and be a productive human being even though his eyesight was limited and he had numerous health issues from constant high glucose counts in his blood. He didn't have someone 'taking care of him' even though I can guarantee you he was a lot sicker than your lying wife.

Where was all this 'sickness' when she was out screwing around - on your dime? Where was all this diabetic 'damage' she is supposedly suffering from when she was was out having her fun? Or did it not rear it's ugly head until AFTER she realized she can't afford her old lifestyle without you in the house?

Sorry, but I've got ZERO sympathy for this liar. It's just a ploy to get you back home because God forbid she could get her worthless ass out the door and start working to support herself when she has YOU to bleed every last drop from. 

I'd be *SO* done with this woman.

As someone else suggested, maybe you should look into bankruptcy. And don't forget who you have to THANK for putting you in this position. About the dead last thing I'd do is go home and bring her tea and toast in bed.


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## Tilted 1 (Jul 23, 2019)

Yes, do the bankruptcy, and don't take her back, she will not honor it, as for her she wants the status of what you give her nothing else. Be done.


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## Arkansas (Jan 30, 2020)

"She is getting very ill from diabetes and says she needs my help. I don't want to come back home to this cheater, but I also don't want to go to jail."

make her a deal

a post-nuptial agreement that keeps you out of jail, gives her health care, but protects your financial interests 

don't do anything FOR her ... make decisions on yourself that benefit YOU


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Which type of Diabetes?


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Arkansas said:


> "She is getting very ill from diabetes and says she needs my help. I don't want to come back home to this cheater, but I also don't want to go to jail."
> 
> make her a deal
> 
> ...


Use this to your advantage as Arkansas suggests. Get RO removed and post nuptial agreement. Any and all conversations will be recorded for your protection. Finances to be kept separate. However, the end game will still be D in some form or another.


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## JackOfSpades (Mar 9, 2020)

MattMatt said:


> Which type of Diabetes?


I don't know. I don't think she knows either. She didn't have diabetes growing up (that would seem to indicate Type 2), but when she was pregnant with our youngest son, she got gestational diabetes. Her doctor told her that it would go away after our son was born, but it didn't. She now has to take insulin shots (humalog and lantus). She has difficulty controlling her diabetes, and has been in and out of the ER several times with diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). The DKA has damaged her kidneys and her intestines to where she now has digestive issues and she should probably be on dialysis (but isn't as far as I know). I think I heard her doctor say that her pancreas does not produce insulin anymore at all now.

One of the reasons that she said she couldn't have sex with me anymore is because the neuropathy resulting from the DKA makes her body hurt too much.


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## JackOfSpades (Mar 9, 2020)

delupt said:


> Devastating post Jack, I can't imagine the reality you find yourself in ... so many of us men have had the threat of false-accusations used against us, to hear a first-hand account of how it is weaponized and encouraged by the state is appalling, And seemingly just to get you to drop the D suit and fall back into line as her provider, I don't have the words.
> 
> I can only imagine the parental-alienation going on to turn your kids against you ... I assume you are no longer able to see your children, but the damage she is likely doing to them is palpable.
> 
> Any abusive behavior before her affair? This kind of cruelty smells like 'personality issues'.


She has always had a bad temper. She yells when she's angry, like if she comes home from shopping and finds out that I haven't cleaned the house. She threw a ceramic cup at me once, but it missed and just broke a tile on the floor.

I heard that when she was younger she was arrested for assaulting a police officer.

I had actually recorded a video on my phone not long ago of one of her angry rants. I put it on a flash drive, and my attorney tried to present it during a custody hearing in order to establish whether she was a fit parent. Unfortunately, the judge would not even allow the flash drive to be entered into evidence.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

Study the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Another poster ( @CopperTop) had a similar situation trying to divorce and losing income due to a change in employment. IIRC< if he went back to the marriage and waited X amount of time, he could re-file for divorce and his lower income would be used. Perhaps move back in, separate bedrooms, act as caretaker for some time, and then refile for divorce with your lower income being accepted by the court? Ask your lawyer, but that might work. A few months or so living in the same house would suck big, but it could literally save you tens of thousands of dollars.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

JackOfSpades said:


> I don't know. I don't think she knows either. She didn't have diabetes growing up (that would seem to indicate Type 2), but when she was pregnant with our youngest son, she got gestational diabetes. Her doctor told her that it would go away after our son was born, but it didn't. She now has to take insulin shots (humalog and lantus). She has difficulty controlling her diabetes, and has been in and out of the ER several times with diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). The DKA has damaged her kidneys and her intestines to where she now has digestive issues and she should probably be on dialysis (but isn't as far as I know). I think I heard her doctor say that her pancreas does not produce insulin anymore at all now.
> 
> One of the reasons that she said she couldn't have sex with me anymore is because the neuropathy resulting from the DKA makes her body hurt too much.


Sometimes gestational diabetes can become Type 2. Unless she was an undiagnosed Type 1?

I have Type 2 and I am on Metformin and Victoza (non insulin) injections.

Diabetics can get into rages due to blood sugar issues.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@JackOfSpades, 

At times, you kind of surprise me with your apparent lack of legal knowledge, so my guess is that your in-house counsel gig is something like "International Trade Attorney" for XYZ Huge Corp or "Corporate Administration Attorney" for ABC Corporation. 

So let me give you a laymans view of divorce law. *First*, you filed, she responded, and you've been haggling over custody. Almost no judge in the world is going to give fully custody to one parent and take custody away from the other, and yet for some reason when the parents are mad at each other, they both try to claim the other is "unfit." Here's reality: usually judges have TONS of divorces to try to settle, and to them it is not about who was right or who was wrong. In fact, I don't think they even CONSIDER "right and wrong" (or "who broke up the family" or "who hurt who"). To a judge, a divorce is just a business transaction to split things as 50/50 fairly as they can figure out, and that includes the kids. To a judge, an adult parent HAS PARENTAL RIGHTS (even criminals in jail do not have their parental rights removed). So unless your STBXW is a crack ***** in prison for killing her pimp, you aren't likely to win full custody or prove she's an unfit parent. Thus, the first thing I'd recommend to you is to change your view on the custody. A much more realistic, reasonable view is start with a very even, 50/50 split as your offer--namely you have them one week, she has them then next, or 4-3-3-4... 

*Next*, the judge wouldn't allow the video of your wife having an anger fit as evidence because there are laws about electronic surveillance and recording (audio and video). I'm kind of surprised you don't know about this, but for everything from tape recordings to video recordings, each state has a law about getting permission and how many parties have to give permission etc. Here is a link to a PDF about the laws in each state: https://www.nar.realtor/sites/default/files/documents/2018-NAR Surveillance-Survey-Update.pdf 

But let's summarize. In NO STATE is it legal to record someone talking to someone else without their knowledge! Some states are "1-Party" states, and that means if 1 party in the conversation gives permission it is okay to record--thus if you are speaking to another human, and you are a party in the conversation, you can give permission and record without telling the other party. Other states are "2-Party" states, and that means that both parties in the conversation have to give permission for the convo to be LEGALLY recorded and usable as evidence in a court of law--thus if you are speaking to another human, and you are a party in the conversation, you can give your permission but they would also have to give THEIR permission to record legally so that it could be used as evidence. 

NOW...here on TAM there are two specific instances that we might recommend someone record: 1) when they suspect their spouse is cheating and lying about it, or 2) when false accusations of domestic violence are likely or have already happened. In instance #1, the recording will never, EVER enter a court-of-law. It's only for the betrayed spouse's confirmation that the gut feeling was true, so that the BS is satisfied that the cheating spouse has been lying so they can move forward. Make sense? Cuz when you have that gut feeling and your spouse gaslights you and tells you that you're nuts, you halfway believe it...and this instance of recording is just to prove to your self that you aren't nuts. In instance #2, the recording is, in fact, intended to be used as evidence in a court-of-law IF NECESSARY. The idea is that if Spouse A is falsely accusing Spouse B of abuse, Spouse B keeps a recording device on them at all times, holds it up in plain view, and says: "I am recording all of our interactions for both of our safety. I give my permission to record. If you speak to me or interact with me, you are giving your permission to record. If you do not wish to be recorded, please walk away now." That way even 2-Party Laws for recording are met, and a person could successfully defend themselves against false accusations. 

Can you see how your video recording is not really legal? A) it was for the intent of proving she's an unfit parent (and most judges don't remove parental custody rights unless they're in prison) and B) legal permission to record wasn't properly obtained.

*Number Three*: where exactly is your divorce case? I hear that you filed, and assume she responded because she got a lawyer (you say you've been paying for both lawyers). I hear that there was an RO. Is it a temporary RO or was it made permanent? I'm guessing it's permanent because you say you went to all your court-ordered classes and that can take up to about a year. I hear there have been custody appearances in court, so again, I'm assuming you're somewhat close to trial or it's done and you have divorce orders. I hear the court ordered you to pay CS and alimony but it sounded like that was the temporary order while the divorce moved along...and that during the time of the divorce being in court, you were about to be fired from your first job and got your corporate lawyer job. So I'm guessing you are a ways into this, you have a permanent RO and temporary court orders, you tried to modify the temporary orders, and the divorce is not yet final but pretty close...is that about right?

In layman's terms the court imputed income to you because it can look at your past so-many years of taxes and look at your past earning history and say "This guy has the ability to earn $XYZ." They do formulas like "last 5 years taxes divided by five" for an average "ability to earn." In addition, if you quit/resigned a 6-figure job to work a 5-figure job, the court looks at it like you voluntarily lowered your income; whereas, if you WERE FIRED...then it was something forced upon you. So it sounds to me like you heard they were going to fire you, resigned to make your resume and job-search easier...but then bit yourself in the butt at court! It is within the realm of conceiveable that you could appeal, present to the court some letter that indicates you were about to be fired (proof--not speculation), present the 180 other jobs of 6-figures to which you applied and lost the job, and THEN present the last 12 months worth of paycheck stubs. This would show the court that you didn't voluntarily quit, that you did TRY to find employment at the imputed level and could not get hired, and that this change in ability to earn is permanent (not temporary). 

BUT an appeal will take time--and more money. AND even if you don't like to hear it, your divorce attorney is getting pressured for billable hours, and you, my friend, are a "billable hours" dream come true! I have confidence your divorce attorney could bill you from here to eternity! 

*Finally*, here's some reality. I suggest three things:

1. Look at whatever order you do currently have. You would be surprised how many people don't actually read what they've been ordered to do! So read it over yourself and understand it yourself. Often an order will say right in it how to change it or under what circumstances it can change, etc. Also, an order might say when (or IF) it can be terminated! Lastly, knowledge is power, so Google "Divorce Laws All 50 States," click on a result, click on your state, and start reading up so that you know about divorce. Listen, you are a smart guy, so start educating yourself. 

2. See if you two can reach an agreement. Speak to your STBXW and make sure she is completely, 100% aware that this divorce is going to happen. Honestly, if you can't afford to pay your attorney and her attorney, eventually they will realize the well is dry and ****** off, but that doesn't stop the divorce case in court. It will move forward. So at some point, if she accepts that the two of you are done, you may be able to resolve this outside of court. 

Now, she doesn't sound like the most calm, stable person, but I would suggest that you make a reasonable offer--you give up one thing you had been holding onto, and ask her to give up one thing she had been holding onto. Heck you might even outright ask her if she'd be willing to accept 75% of current order. It's probably more than you want and less than she wants, but you could afford it, right? Or ask if she'd accept X% of your current pay as alimony in exchange for Y more custody days! I mean, let's be honest, that's what it's about, right? Maybe she would lower the amount she's willing to accept if she felt like she won something. So pick something you'd be willing to let her win, and offer it. If she does agree, then all you'd have to do is file a stipulation together and it would be okay. If she will not agree with you directly, you may want to recommend that you both agree to go to XYZ Mediation some alternative dispute resolution to which you both agree, and abide by their decision. I bet mediation folks would say you owe 75% of current alimony which is more than you want and less than she wants, but hey--it's an objective middleman telling you guys where it will likely land. 

3. Prepare your modificaton case. If your order doesn't help, and she won't budge, then the only alternative you've got left is to appeal the order, but rather than just jumping in and wasting a bunch of money, take the time to get ready for the case! Learn what judges consider, and then build that kind of evidence. In an alimony case, the judge doesn't give a rip if she's a fit parent or not; nor whether an illegally obtained recording shows her in an angry state of mind! But the judge DOES give a rip about : 
a) was the change in circumstance substantial? In other words, if everything's pretty close to the same but you are just over and over trying to lower it, the judge will get tired of that. But if your salary went from $100k to $50k that's a change. 
b) was the ending of the job voluntary (quit) or were you fired? PROVE you were about to be fired with a document or a printed email--not your memory or a buddy's gut feeling. 
c) did you sincerely try to find work in the original salary range? Document the 200 resumes you sent out to companies with a $100k job, document from government statistics how salaries have lowered in your area, etc. 
d) is this change in circumstance permanent? If you just got your first newer, lower paycheck, it's not considered permanent yet and you may well earn a year-end bonus to make it up, etc. But if you've got 9mo or a year's worth of checkstubs, that shows that it's not changing any time soon.


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## JackOfSpades (Mar 9, 2020)

_At times, you kind of surprise me with your apparent lack of legal knowledge, so my guess is that your in-house counsel gig is something like "International Trade Attorney" for XYZ Huge Corp or "Corporate Administration Attorney" for ABC Corporation._

I'm not a divorce attorney. That's why I hired one. I imagine that a brain surgeon wouldn't attempt to perform heart surgery either. Since you know so much about the law, you must know that family law is not a mandatory course in law school. I am quite informed and skilled in my area of expertise, however.

_A much more realistic, reasonable view is start with a very even, 50/50 split as your offer--namely you have them one week, she has them then next, or 4-3-3-4..._

We do have a 50/50 split now, more or less. I get kids every other weeknight and every weekend, since I must work days and she doesn't.

_I'm kind of surprised you don't know about this, but for everything from tape recordings to video recordings, each state has a law about getting permission and how many parties have to give permission etc. _

I am aware.

_Some states are "1-Party" states, and that means if 1 party in the conversation gives permission it is okay to record--thus if you are speaking to another human, and you are a party in the conversation, you can give permission and record without telling the other party._

I live in a 1-party state. The video conversation I recorded was my wife yelling at me. Therefore, I was a party.

_Can you see how your video recording is not really legal? A) it was for the intent of proving she's an unfit parent (and most judges don't remove parental custody rights unless they're in prison) and B) legal permission to record wasn't properly obtained._

You are incorrect on both counts. The video recording was not made for any legal intent at all--it was made some time before I discovered her infidelity. And I was a party to the conversation being recorded in a 1-party state.

The voice-activated audio recording that I later made in her car was illegal, though, and was one of the reasons that I was ordered to attend domestic abuse prevention classes. I admit that I did not know that recording your spouse without her knowledge is considered domestic abuse.

_So it sounds to me like you heard they were going to fire you, resigned to make your resume and job-search easier...but then bit yourself in the butt at court!_

Pretty much. I didn't think it was prudent to wait until I was fired. The job was killing me anyway. In my experience, prospective employers prefer to hire someone who resigned over someone who was fired.

_It is within the realm of conceiveable that you could appeal, present to the court some letter that indicates you were about to be fired (proof--not speculation)_

Of course, I don't have any such letter. I'd be surprised if this is the kind of evidence that any law firm would ever generate in contemplation of firing their employee.

_a) was the change in circumstance substantial?_

I'd say that a drop from about $250,000/yr to about $175,000/yr is pretty substantial.

_b) was the ending of the job voluntary (quit) or were you fired?_

I quit... in anticipation of being fired.

_c) did you sincerely try to find work in the original salary range?_

Yes, and I can list the firms to which I sent resumes. I suppose the court would need to take my word on that--if it is willing to. Frankly, I would have preferred my current job to any of the higher-paying ones anyway, for mental health reasons.

Look, I used to work 12-hour days, six and sometimes seven days a week. That's why I earned so much. I simply can't do that anymore at my age and as a single dad.

_d) is this change in circumstance permanent?_

Yes.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

JackOfSpades said:


> I don't know. I don't think she knows either. She didn't have diabetes growing up (that would seem to indicate Type 2), but when she was pregnant with our youngest son, she got gestational diabetes. Her doctor told her that it would go away after our son was born, but it didn't. She now has to take insulin shots (humalog and lantus). She has difficulty controlling her diabetes, and has been in and out of the ER several times with diabetic ketoacidosis (DKA). The DKA has damaged her kidneys and her intestines to where she now has digestive issues and she should probably be on dialysis (but isn't as far as I know). I think I heard her doctor say that her pancreas does not produce insulin anymore at all now.
> 
> One of the reasons that she said she couldn't have sex with me anymore is because the neuropathy resulting from the DKA makes her body hurt too much.


None of this is your problem. 

Talk to a lawyer. Explore declaring bankruptcy. Your financial stress is your problem, not her health (sorry, not buying it anyway.)

So fix your problem instead of fixing hers.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@JackOfSpades I have moved your thread to an appropriate section of TAM.

Sorry you are going through this.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Jack i would tell her that you will think about moving back hoe only if she drop the charges and willing tells that police it was a false claim. and tell her that she will have to accept a polygraph to prove she has not been cheating...and that she sign a post-nup.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Moving back on a temporary basis as roommates only? Perhaps. Permanently? No.


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