# Another case of HD/LD married couple



## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I've been reading posts on this forum for a few months now and both my wife and I have been helped by what we've read here, if for no other reason than to know we aren't alone in our struggles.

My wife and I will celebrate our 15th anniversary this May, and we have four wonderful children. Outside of the bedroom our marriage really has, and continues to be, a wonderful one. We adore and love each other, my wife and I love spending time together and we laugh a lot. We find it easy to talk about anything and everything, and it's rare that we don't manage to spend at least 30 minutes every day talking about things other than family logistics. Both of us realize we have personal faults but we love each other despite our individual shortcomings (although we both strive to improve). Divorce is not an option for us, not only would it be hurtful to each other and our kids, but since we are both devoted Christians... well it's just not an option.

Inside the bedroom it's another matter. Prior to marriage we weren't sexually active together, in fact we never saw each other completely naked until our honeymoon. She was a virgin and while I wasn't, we both wanted to keep sex out of our dating life. We were affectionate and still are to this day (meaning we kiss/hug many times a day).

Right from the start though we had sexual problems in our marriage, and looking back on it I wish we would have been more proactive about seeking professional help, but there's no changing the past. We didn't have sex during our honeymoon, in fact during the first year of marriage we had sex only a few times. Initially the issue was that sex was incredibly painful for my wife. I was patient though and we eventually worked through it. On our first year anniversary she got pregnant which was surprising given the few times we had successfully had any sex at all (perhaps as few as 5 times by this point in our marriage). After our first child, sex was easier.

Fast forwarding to now, sex is often times still painful for her. She describes it as either being painful friction, as if her clitoris has been over stimulated, or just general rawness. Sex often times leaves discomfort or pain that typically lasts for hours (at times has lasted a day or more). We have since had her checked out by a couple of doctors and both have tested for any abnormalities and hormonal issues (none of which have been found). We tried giving her testosterone supplements for her, but they did nothing. We have also tried a prescribed estrogen cream which does help her overall natural lubrication and keeps her more supple (net result is that it does help considerably but doesn't keep sex from being painful). At times though sex hasn't been painful, but even in the absence of pain sex is in general something my wife doesn't desire. I would describe her attitude towards sex as this: she would often times rather do anything else (and I mean anything short of a root canal) than be sexually active with me.

Foreplay tends to last 5-20 minutes, and we both enjoy it (I'll admit that I absolutely love pleasing her). Oral sex is common (on one or both of us). Lubricants help to an extent but they also create other problems, primarily that I don't get off (more on that later). Additionally once she has had 1-3 orgasms sex will quickly become painful to the point where it has to end. More often than not I will have to masturbate to be satisfied after sex is finished.

This leaves us feeling like we are sexually completely incompatible:
I'm HD (prefer to make love 2-3 times a day... at times more or less, but I'm patient and never insist on it).

My wife is LD (an honest assessment is that she would prefer to make love 6-12 times a year).

Over the years we have gone months without any sexual activity at all (I would throw myself into something else to keep my mind occupied, primarily online games like WoW and would self-satisfy). Sometimes after months of no sexual activity she would show an interest, but even then could best be described by saying she wouldn't mind making love to me and would kind of like it.

Another issue is longevity during sex. She typically has 1-3 orgasms within 3-5 minutes of actual sex (excluding time spent on foreplay).

It is incredibly rare for me to be pleased in under 5 minutes (even when we have experimented with trying to only please me and see how that would play out). Typically it takes 10-60 minutes for me to reach climax. Use of lubricants can at times make it impossible for me to climax (meaning that after an hour of active sexual relations I don't feel that I'm at all close to climax). Even when I self satisfy it takes a while to climax. There have also been times where I've abstained from masturbation (as well as sex), as an experiment, for months at a time and while I will tends to help me climax faster it's not much of a difference (certainly not worth the frustration of abstaining for that long).

Currently we compromise and I'd say we have sexual relations on average about 4-5 times a month. At times we've done more than that, and at times we've had stretches of zero activity. One issue though is that I don't feel that often times she really wants to, while I appreciate that she is gracious enough to try for my sake and I let her know that. I feel that overall I'm just not wanted at all sexually (except for a few times a year).

There has been zero infidelity for either of us during the coarse of our marriage, not even an "emotional affair".

We are about to start seeing a sex therapist about our issues, but after we talked about it we both decided to put down on "paper" what we see the problems are. I also sought her approval before posting anything here (in fact she read what I wrote prior to my posting anything).

We are looking for any advice or help anyone can offer though, because while I've tried to be patient, I'm afraid that even I'm reaching a point where I'm struggling with frustration and anger (though not directed at her) over these issues... Normally we don't argue at all, and this issue has been our primary point of contention, especially the past few years.


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## Toshiba2020 (Mar 1, 2012)

First off i jut want to comment how great it is that your wife is so involved and working with you on the situation, it appears she is interested in trying to improve things and that alone can make a huge difference. That alone make divorce or anything along those lines unnecessary.

Im no expert but what i can say is dont stop trying, the worst thing you can do is to ignore the situation, it wont go away on its on and will only cause one or both of you to become bitter and resentful. Certainly give the therapist a try, they can work wonders if both individuals are willing to work at the problem. Also, typically the more you talk about and have sex the more you will desire it, become used to it and the less it should hurt. Try different doctors, i know first hand that not all Drs know what they are talking about and often misdiagnose people.

its also important to be realistic, if one desires it once a month and the other desires it once a day, a realistic compromise might be 1-2 times a week. While this may not seem like much to you it is WAY more than enough for her so try and see things from her point of view as well. Remember that intimacy includes more than just sex, there are many other things you can do in that category. Maybe im just weird but i personally can get near as much enjoyment out of a amazing backrub as i can having sex, and after either i feel just as close with my wife, so think of other things she might be able to do to please you that she enjoys doing or atleast isnt as painful.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I am grateful that my wife is willing to work with me on the situation. We've already made some good strides on our own, but we are going to start therapy because we feel like we've hit a wall on our own.

I agree too toshiba that we can't stop trying, I know that my growing frustration/anger is brewing because I've let this go on so long. Fortunately we are addressing this before resentment has set in, I know this isn't something she's trying to do to hurt me. I know she loves me (in my mind), it's hard because in a way I feel unloved (in my heart). It's a hollow ache that eats away at me at times. :/

I'm all about compromise, and I know she will never be able to keep up with my drive. It's just not how she's wired. When it hurts her physically I understand, it's easier for me in a way. There are times though for stretches where it doesn't hurt and it's still pleasurable yet the desire still isn't there (sometimes for weeks/months at a time). In my mind I understand that's just how she is, but it still hurts emotionally (if that makes any sense).


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

I'll go along with Toshiba's sentiment. It sounds to me like you're doing everything you can, from the doctors to the sex therapist to writing down your grievances. You're communicating about the issue and, more importantly, you sound like you're listening to each other.

The one thing I would ask her to write down for you and the therapist is if the friction issue is the only thing preventing her from enjoying sex. If it is simply a physical issue, that's one thing. But if something else has happened to cause her to dislike sex, that's going to have to be approached from a different direction.


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## wamijo (Apr 11, 2012)

Yep, it seems we have twin relationships born at different times. Not that it's a nice situation to be in, it's nice to know there's someone to relate. I wish you two the best in working this through.


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## ValNTine (Feb 27, 2012)

Browncoat.... Mrs. Browncoat....  You guys are one incredible couple!!! It's great that you guys can really (and truly) be so honest with one another. Not to mention the fact that you're both willing to work towards making this marriage work.

So, I want to see if I've got this straight. Your problem Browncoat is that you want sex often, but obviously it's uncomfortable for your wife. You want her to enjoy it, and while she is physically able to orgasm during sex it's rather quickly and faster than you can reach climax. Correct? If you don't mind my getting a bit more personal, I'd love to get some more info to maybe offer some help... if I possibly can.  But no matter what, I think a sex therapist is a WONDERFUL idea for you guys! (You can PM me the answers if they get too personal and you'd rather not answer publicly.)

You mention your wife gets uncomfortable during sex due to too much friction overall, is it from lack of lubrication during the act, or from over stimulation of the clit specifically? Sounded like it might be all 3. 

Is this feeling throughout intercourse, or just in the beginning? And what is the longest you guys have lasted? What positions have you tried?

How open are you and your wife to bringing toys into the bedroom... for you, Browncoat? One idea to help with the time difference, allowing you to enjoy your intimate time together. A fleshlight would be a fun option, allowing her the fun of pleasing you, and allowing you the chance to catch up to your wife prior to sex. 

Does your wife masturbate? Had she experienced anything sexual (besides sex itself since she was a virgin) prior to marriage? 

I think a ST would be a wonderful resource for helping you guys through this! The fact that you're both ready, willing, and able to do so means you're already one big step in the right direction!


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks ValNTine, despite our problems I really do feel blessed to be with my wife and to still be in love after ~15 years. I've always appreciated that I could be frank with my wife (and she with me).

Sorry for the longevity of this post, but answering all your questions (hopefully I got them all) took a while.

I want sex far more often than my wife. If I could wave a magic wand, my wife and I would ML 1-3x a day. I strongly suspect my libido is a lot higher than most guys my age (almost 40), but I've been that way since a teenager. I'm definitely content with having sex 2-4x a week, and these days we either achieve that or come close.

Our biggest problems these days come from differences in desire, passion, and stamina. We also have issues, as you already know, with pain during sex for my wife.

The pain is mostly caused by clitoral overstimulation during sex (after she is done having orgasms). It's that overstimulation that typically marks the swift end of intercourse. Typically when this occurs I've not climaxed and she'll stay with me and try to help me. This is the only time these days she masturbates, because she can often times draw another orgasm from pressure (w/o clitoral stimulation). She primarily does this to keep herself in the moment which helps me (and frankly I enjoy watching her be pleased). We've started using a silicone based lubricant which seems to help some with this pain (more on that later).

Another type of pain she gets is a general rawness (not clitoral) that can start during the middle of sex or appear after sex. This can last anywhere from an hour to a day or more. When raw, even penetration can be painful to the point where it's basically impossible. I can feel when she is raw during penetration, it feels to me like she's exceptionally warm at the vaginal opening and sometimes further in the vagina itself. This typically ends sex before it starts or during sex if it flares up during. At times it seems that lubrication helps, but it's far from being truly preventative.

She can feel like to both of us that she's properly lubricated and yet the pain can flare up. Sometimes it can start before she's had an orgasm but typically then she endures it because she wants to climax and the pleasure outweighs the pain. I don't know when the pain flares up until after sex is complete or if she tells me. If it flares up before she climaxes she typically doesn't say a thing.

I believe the longest we've had intercourse is perhaps 15-20 minutes. Typically once she's achieved her 1-3 orgasms, even if the pain isn't there she kind of turns into what I describe to her as an anatomically correct rag doll. That is she's not in the moment at all, her mind immediately goes anywhere and everywhere despite her best efforts to try and stay in the moment.

We typically use two positions (missionary and her on top... guess it's called asian cowgirl?), which is a mild disappointment for me, but frankly if we used only two the rest of our lives and our other issues were gone I'd be delighted! Her legs pretty much need to stay on the bed (aligned with her body). When we raise her legs too much during sex she gets very uncomfortable, not because of flexibility but because she gets the feeling that her organs are being pushed around. We get the same results whenever we try an position from behind (doggy) or on the side.

We saw a ST for the first time last week, and that went well. Mostly we just went over background, but she did leave us with one good bit of advice which was to try using silicone based lubrication. We've always used water-soluble before which we found wasn't worth the effort (in fact at times it seemed to make things worse for us). Time will tell if the silicone lubricant is something that will continue to work well for us only time will tell, but we are really happy with how things have improved so far. We plan to continue going to see the ST once a week in the immediate future. We also hope to touch on the issue of her lack of passion, as it's something I'd love to feel from her (more than perhaps 1-2 times in our 15 years of marriage).

We've never brought sex toys into the bedroom. Not because we are opposed to them per se, just have zero experience with them. LOL we had to look up what a fleshlight was, and once we did we had a lot of fun talking about it until she fell asleep. We have a similar sense of humor, so it was actually a really great time tonight just laughing... to the point where at times we were worried we'd wake up the kids. Though that's nothing new, we joke around and laugh a LOT.  We are willing to try anything like that.

Typically during foreplay she'll give me a BJ, followed by me giving her oral sex (she's not a big fan of 69) while I keep myself excited. While I've given her an orgasm a few times with oral sex we tend to not let it get that far because it's overall counterproductive for us. She does enjoy it though, and it makes a huge difference in her being ready for penetration (we used to have a lot more problems with penetration prior to us trying it and making it a regular thing).

I've only had one other sexual partner in my life, a college girl friend I dated for 2-3 years (it ended about 2 years before I met my wife). We were sexually active through most of that time, and I've always taken a while to be pleased. There are times when I'll finish quickly (1-5 minutes), but typically that's rare. Also rare are times when I've tried for 20-60 minutes w/o success and gave up trying to climax. These days I've found if I don't climax in 30 minutes or so after sex has started it's just not likely to happen at all. This only tends to happen when my wife is finished and her not being in the moment makes it hard for me to finish.

Something I've not shared here before, only because I wanted to make sure my wife was OK with me sharing (even anonymously) was that she had some sexual abuse from ages ~6-12. No penetration, but she had her vaginal area touched infrequently by a family member. This caused her to get an early interest in masturbation, which was quickly snuffed out by her mother. We aren't sure if that has any bearing on her sex life with me now, because she has no qualms with being touched. That's something we are going to go over with the ST in the weeks to come.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Browncoat ~

I hope you'll keep us updated on your progress. It's often recommended that people go to a sex therapist, but we don't very often get to see a couple who does and how it goes. 

Did your therapist say anything about coconut oil as a potential lube? Sounds like your wife has a lot of sensitivity in her genitals - she climaxes easily and quickly (can she please give me some of that - I am the opposite!).

So, I'll ask an impertinent question ... please don't take it the wrong way. Do you think your wife feels pressured or somehow inadequate that she may not measure up to the level of passion and function that you want? I mean, having a huge amount of passion and lust every single time you have sex (and especially if you often encounter pain with it) seems like an unrealistic expectation. Do you feel like you have realistic expectations (making love 3x a day while you have 4 children and a wife with pain problems doesn't seem realistic)?

And the last bit ... about potential abuse or shame ... most definitely can have an impact on a person's sexual life. The experiences we have as a child shape and mold us into the people that we are. It might be something to think about her exploring ... it may be <unconsciously> one of the things that holds her back from being as free as she could be.

Best wishes!


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I'd be happy to keep a more formal journal of what goes on in our ST sessions. Might be a good way for us to keep track of what's been going on, and if it can help others all the better.

Our ST didn't mention coconut oil, just recommended silicone lubricant which makes sense now that I've experienced it and learned a bit more about it. It tends to stay where you apply it. Apparently water soluble lubricants can wick into the vagina and away from where my wife most needs lubrication. We can certainly try coconut oil, I'll look into that (esp if it's cheaper since I can be a bit of a cheap skate at times).

As for expectations, while I'd love to have sex 1-3x a day I completely understand why it doesn't happen. I don't regret that we don't. I only mention that to express the difference in drives. Most of the time I just take care of myself w/o saying a thing. It's not that my wife doesn't know I was in the mood X times a day, she does. It's just that bringing it up all the time is caustic. I also am an affectionate guy, so I will often times give her random hugs and kisses. Sometimes I'll give her some passion in the kiss when I'm feelign it, but most of the time it's a gentle loving way to say... well I love you.

Over the years I've developed a sort of sex sense (lol think spidey-sense from spiderman), that based on how long since we last had sex, what time of day it is, what her mood is, etc. if it's worth while trying to initiate sex.

As for feeling pressured, I don't mind you asking at all. I just asked my wife about this before writing so I'd make sure I reflected her feelings.

She says that for the first 12 years or so of our marriage she didn't feel pressure. The first 12 years of our marriage we typically had sex 1-4x a month... with some stretches in there of no sex at all (a couple of times 6+ months of no sex at all). She says she didn't feel pressure back then, and I basically suffered in silence (mostly because of pain during sex I felt like it wasn't right for me to say anything).

About 3 years ago, she was showing signs of early menopause (doctor confirmed), and her libido dropped even further. This coupled with her having strange things happen with her cycle (like having 2-3 periods in a month, she doesn't like to have sex then). Some of her periods were dragging out for weeks. Also a sense of loss came over me, I always had this hope that she would experience that surge in sexual interest some women achieve in their late 30's early 40's. It didn't happen. So with that hope dissolved, lower libido (on top of an already low libido), frequent breaks in sex due to odd menstrual cycles, and just built up frustration I just couldn't take it anymore. I felt like I just couldn't suffer in silence anymore and all that disappointment from the first 12 years of our marriage just hit me like a ton of bricks and turned into resentment (really took me by surprise).

At first when the resentment started it took us both by surprise. At times I would find myself suddenly filled with so much anger over our sex life, it was a very strong emotion. Not that I ever became violent or aggressive with her (it's not my way... ever), nor mad at her... I was just so angry with the situation. At times now I still struggle with this, as much as I'd like to say I'm this perfect guy whenever I've gone 3-4+ days w/o sex the resentment turns to anger and rears it's ugly head. Sometimes my wife doesn't know about it, and I just try and work it out on my own when alone. Sometimes though it comes on strong when she's around and that's when she feels pressure. She says it's not direct pressure, not like I'm demanding anything (I don't). It's that she can tell how much it hurts me in a variety of ways (feeling unloved, undeserving of love, empty inside, etc.) that she feels indirect pressure to open herself up having sex more often with me. Which in a way feels bad for me too, because I don't want to make her feel any pressure to have sex... yet I feel starved for not getting it otherwise after 3-4 days.

Hopefully I didn't ramble too much, sorry again for how long the post is. Normally life at our house is really filled with laughter and joy... it's just at times this darkness comes when the resentment comes back. I hate that it's there and wish I could just put the resentment in a box and tuck it away... but I can't at times. This is one of the reasons we are starting therapy... we just can't live like this any longer and since divorce isn't an option, addressing it (no matter how hard) is the only way to go.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Thanks for sharing your story, Browncoat. I'm so glad that your wife has agreed to the sexual therapy. Between the childhood sexual abuse and the physical pain, I think that professional help is warranted.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I should mention too, that the frustration doesn't just come from the fact that I didn't "get any" the past 3-4 days.

It comes also in part because well over half the times my wife is done so far before me that I end up masturbating for well over half the sexual encounter... at times it feels like vaginally augmented masturbation. The sex just doesn't satisfy when it ends like this.

It comes because often times I can tell my wife's heart just isn't in it at all, no matter how much foreplay love and affection I shower on her. I appreciate that she tries, I think it's so very sweet of her... but there's that general feeling that she doesn't care. The worst part is that it's because she doesn't care about sex, though she does about me. She doesn't want sex, while she goes along with it... her heart is only in it about 4-6x/year. She achieves orgasms and is pleased by it, but she still just doesn't care.

It's because often times we get started, foreplay is fun and exciting and then we stop because it hurts during penetration.

It's all that and probably things that aren't coming to mind atm.

I know I shouldn't let it bother as much as it does... but it does and the feelings are strong (which is something I hope to address with the ST).


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

When your sex life is satisfying, you don't give it much thought. When it's not, it occupies 90% of your brain space.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

lovesherman said:


> When your sex life is satisfying, you don't give it much thought. When it's not, it occupies 90% of your brain space.


Yeah and unfortunately for me it can often times let my thoughts drift to places I'd rather it didn't. Really don't like dwelling on regrets and resentment, and outside of this part of my life I generally don't.

It's funny too, because when we do have good sex now and then it really turns my disposition around so quickly. It's kind of embarrassing how much of 20 minutes can make to my attitude for the next several days.


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> Yeah and unfortunately for me it can often times let my thoughts drift to places I'd rather it didn't. Really don't like dwelling on regrets and resentment, and outside of this part of my life I generally don't.
> 
> It's funny too, because when we do have good sex now and then it really turns my disposition around so quickly. It's kind of embarrassing how much of 20 minutes can make to my attitude for the next several days.


My husband and I are the same way. Not embarassing at all. A good sex life helps bond us together and enables us to overlook faults, forget resentments, and keeps little annoyances in their place.


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## working_together (Oct 16, 2011)

I'm wondering if your wife can hold off on having an orgasm so quickly...I wish I had that problem lol. Maybe if she could wait for you to catch up. IDK

My ex was like you, it could take a while, he was like that when he was 23, some guys are just like that. What I found interesting was that when we brought some fantasy play into the bedroom, he would climax in about 5 min. Can you guys read some erotica together?? you really have to find ways to make your sex life interesting when you've been together for a long time..


good luck with the S/T


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## Havesomethingtosay (Nov 1, 2011)

10-60 minutes!!!!!! This is not a porno..... No wonder it is painful. While I'd love to have that type of control at times, sorry but I am not surprised that say a 30 minute avg is painful to a woman......

Wish you both luck.....


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> Sex often times leaves discomfort or pain that typically lasts for hours (at times has lasted a day or more). I would describe her attitude towards sex as this: she would often times rather do anything else (and I mean anything short of a root canal) than be sexually active with me.
> 
> Foreplay tends to last 5-20 minutes, and we both enjoy it (I'll admit that I absolutely love pleasing her). More often than not I will have to masturbate to be satisfied after sex is finished.
> 
> ...


Browncoat, I have highlighted what I see are you problems.

1. I think this problem is about you and has nothing to do with your wife.

2. The notion that you "absolutely love to please her" is telling. You are so focused on your wife's sexual experience that you are completely disconnected from your own. The result is an inability to have an orgasm/porn star performance, which in this case is a bad thing.

3. Three orgasms is a lot. You are wearing your wife out, physically and psychologically. The whole friction thing reeks of you being completely desensitized by something - porn or masturbation likely.

4. "Not worth the frustration of abstaining."

I don't want to debate high drive/low drive, but here goes. Many guys use sex as a means of soothing their own anxiety. They convince themselves that they are high drive and just need regular sex. In reality, they are high anxiety, often high functioning, and use sex as a means of controlling their stress. 

Partners of these types of guys get worn out. Most importantly, the partner feels funny about the sexual encounter because they recognize it for what it is - a stress reliever. The partner typically can not put words to the feeling. There is marginal if any connection and the wife walks away feeling a little empty as a result of the encounter. The guy makes himself feel better by focusing on his wife and her experience ......... "absolutely love to please her".

These guys often have porn issues as well.

I am sitting out here in cyberspace Browncoat and can only offer observations. Your case may not fit these facts.

If it does:

1. No porn and no masturbation, period.
2. Observe your own stress levels and see if there is a correlation between your sex drive and stress levels.
3. Figure out something else to do when you are stressed: work out, be more productive at work, etc.
4. Quit worrying about your wife's sexual experience. A short warm up for her to get her lubed, then make it feel good to you. Tell her to be vocal and do what it takes for her to feel good. After your orgasm, watch yourself and your response - are you OK with the experience?

Books: Married Man Sex Life, No More Mr. Nice Guy, Arousal (Michael Bader), The Way of the Superior Man. Also go watch the TedX talk on pornography here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zif0_60b3WU 

Good luck.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> 10-60 minutes!!!!!! This is not a porno..... No wonder it is painful. While I'd love to have that type of control at times, sorry but I am not surprised that say a 30 minute avg is painful to a woman......
> 
> Wish you both luck.....


Well typically the longest we continue vaginal sex is 10-15 minutes or so. Most of the times we just have vaginal sex for about 5-7 minutes, by that time my wife is done. She just pulls herself off or asks that we stop (and I do). Sometimes if it's just mildly uncomfortable and I'm really close she just says to stay in and finish up. 

The rest is manual/oral.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think FNG has some really good points, Browncoat ... in particular about the anxiety/stress part.

I have seen that a number of times on TAM ... it may not be where you are at, but it's certainly something to think about and mull over. My favorite article to provoke some thinking about it is the following:

Do You Want Your Partner To Stroke Your Ego Or Your Genitals? | Psychology Today

It was interesting regarding the amount of disappointment and resentment toward your wife you had when she went in to early menopause. But that is something that is mostly outside of her control and it's not like she was doing it on purpose to thwart or hurt you. Resenting something like that is counter-productive as it can cause your mate to pull away from you ... and the real issues - the resentment - does not lie in your wife in that case, but in you.

Best wishes.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

FNG I'll post a response later. Was busy editing a response, but you ask some good questions and I want to offer good answers. I'm just up against the clock since our 2nd ST session is soon.

I'll answer quickly on one topic. Masturbation (outside of masturbation when she's climaxed and done), is something I only always do on days when sex is off the table.

I have abstained from masturbation for up to 3 months once, but found it didn't have an effect on how quickly I climaxed.

If I masturbate within 3 hours before sex, it will take definitely have a effect on how long it takes me to climax. So like I said I abstain for 5-8 hours before we have sex on days when we are likely to have sex.

More later... thanks again for your advice.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> Browncoat, I have highlighted what I see are you problems.
> 
> 1. I think this problem is about you and has nothing to do with your wife.


You could be right, but let me explain some more things below first. If I am the problem man I'd love to find out what it is... I truly do.



FormerNiceGuy said:


> 2. The notion that you "absolutely love to please her" is telling. You are so focused on your wife's sexual experience that you are completely disconnected from your own. The result is an inability to have an orgasm/porn star performance, which in this case is a bad thing.


Short version, we are focused on me. I have always taken a long time to be pleased.

Long version: While it is true that I genuinely love to please her, the vast majority of the time we spend during sex is focused on me.

For us sex has 4 parts to it (as a general rule):
1. Pre-foreplay
2. Foreplay
3. Intercourse
4. Post-play

1.) Pre-foreplay is skipped basically folded into regular foreplay if we are able to have sex during the daytime. It consists of me caressing her and kissing/hugging so that she'll acquiesce to having sex at all.

Bottom line is my wife would be completely content with only having sex 4-6x a year (if that much). The only reason she has sex with me as a general rule is because she knows I want/need it. So this is my way of getting her in the ball park of a mood for sex.

Sex is the lowest priority in her life, she has admitted it to me on several occasions. She feels bad for feeling that way because she knows that it hurts me... but that is how she feels. She has always felt this way throughout our marriage. She has told me that only once over the 15 years of marriage can she think of a time when she really desired sex (and that was about 12 years ago).

Foreplay is mostly about giving me oral sex until her jaw hurts. I continue to caress and touch her to try and keep her from loosing w/e mood was created during pre-foreplay and to keep her interested at all. She doesn't like giving BJs much, just tolerates it for my sake.

She takes zero satisfaction in watching me masturbate, nor does she like to give handjobs, hence BJs during foreplay.

I do give her oral sex, but this is because we have found that her body feels better during intercourse and it ends up increasing both of our pleasure after penetration considerably. It also helps with her general lubrication and greatly reduces the chance of pain during penetration.

During intercourse I try and maximize my pleasure, because I know she will orgasm every time. It's extremely rare that she doesn't. When I used to try and focus on pleasing her she used to orgasm within 30 seconds to 2/3 minutes after penetration. Focusing on me tends to make her first orgasm delayed until about 3-5 minutes. I do take about 20-30 seconds during her first orgasm to help her enjoy it more. Aside from that, the subsequent orgasms take no special effort to come about. I'm just focusing on myself and she'll get a few more orgasms. 

At some point she's just spent and intercourse ends because it quickly turns from either pleasurable or neutral to painful. At this point we are in post-play where she tends to arouse my testicles or kiss me if that's what I prefer, until I climax. This typically takes another 5 or more minutes.



FormerNiceGuy said:


> 3. Three orgasms is a lot. You are wearing your wife out, physically and psychologically. The whole friction thing reeks of you being completely desensitized by something - porn or masturbation likely.


Answered this in the long version above, bottom line is she all but guaranteed to have an orgasm every time w/o much effort. She achieves orgasm far more quickly and easily than my only other sexual partner. I mean incredibly easily.

Subsequent orgasms are never the focus, she just gets them along the way to please me. Once the orgasms end for her, typically the pain takes over quickly. Sometimes she can be in a sort of neutral mode, but typically pain begins the second her last orgasm has gone off.



FormerNiceGuy said:


> 4. "Not worth the frustration of abstaining."
> 
> I don't want to debate high drive/low drive, but here goes. Many guys use sex as a means of soothing their own anxiety. They convince themselves that they are high drive and just need regular sex. In reality, they are high anxiety, often high functioning, and use sex as a means of controlling their stress.
> 
> Partners of these types of guys get worn out. Most importantly, the partner feels funny about the sexual encounter because they recognize it for what it is - a stress reliever. The partner typically can not put words to the feeling. There is marginal if any connection and the wife walks away feeling a little empty as a result of the encounter. The guy makes himself feel better by focusing on his wife and her experience ......... "absolutely love to please her".


I hear what you are saying, and I know what you are talking about. Stress can cause the desire for a quickie.

Since getting sex from my wife is rare, I don't waste those precious moments because I want a quickie. Don't get me wrong sometimes we do have those because we are pressed for time, but I don't initiate for stress sex.

My sex drive is something entirely different than stress. In fact stress can kill this drive. When the drive when it kicks in gets me all hot and bothered, it's like my mind and body are suddenly just craving sex. I have strong passionate feelings, I just want to kiss and hold my wife and savor every part of her. It becomes very hard to concentrate on anything or get my mind off of sex. That feeling can last for hours if not addressed.

Some things will tend to kill the drive though:
1. Serious exercise (a good workout will just tire me out and tend to work off all that pent up energy).

2. Stress, when I'm super stressed the drive doesn't come on nearly as often. If I'm crazy busy at work I may even skip a da w/o having the drive kick in.

3. Emergencies, if something happens that requires taking someone to the hospital or a deadline at work that I have people breathing down my neck... yeah that kills the drive (kind of stress related possibly).

4. Really focusing getting my mind off of thinking about sex. This is hard to do, but I just have to really work on getting all my focus on something else. Eventually the feeling will pass

5. Sexual release (sex or masturbation)

I've always been this way since puberty.



FormerNiceGuy said:


> These guys often have porn issues as well.
> 
> I am sitting out here in cyberspace Browncoat and can only offer observations. Your case may not fit these facts.
> 
> ...


These days I will admit that I do look at porn on occasion but it's more of the playboy pinup style porn. I don't have the need/urge to look at it most of the time, and I don't look at the hardcore stuff.

I'd say for about 10-12 years out of the marriage I've not even so much as looked at a SI swimsuit edition.

I've not seen a porn movie/video for 13-14 years. I watched porn films twice since I have been married and both were during that first year of marriage when sex was impossible. I've never been proud of that, and my wife knows about it.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Havesomethingtosay said:


> 10-60 minutes!!!!!! This is not a porno..... No wonder it is painful. While I'd love to have that type of control at times, sorry but I am not surprised that say a 30 minute avg is painful to a woman......
> 
> Wish you both luck.....


As for pain in sex, one other thing I should add is that it often surprises us. For example a month or so ago was one of those rare times when I climaxed about the same time she did.

It was the most slow and gentle sex possible (we vary how vigorous we are like most couples I'm sure), and to both of our surprise the next day we couldn't even have penetration. We were both shocked.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Since some were curious about our ST sessions, I thought I'd start posting on what happens in each class and what progress (or regression) occurs from week to week.

WEEK 1 (4/6/12)
---------------------------------------

We covered basic background story. The bulk of that story can be found in earlier posts above. We were given two assignments

1. Try a silicone based lubricant (apparently the water based lubricants we tried in the past get absorbed into the vagina and leave the clitoris unprotected).

2. My wife was to try and mentally prepare herself for sex 30 minutes in advance.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

WEEK 2 (4/13/12)
---------------------------------------

Last week we were given two assignments, and both were a great success! We are really encouraged. 

The first assignment was to use a silicone based lubricant to aid with clitoral overstimulation. It worked amazingly well :smthumbup: and helped in 3 ways (some of them unexpected): 

1. Reduced and delayed clitoral overstimulation (she could last longer after her orgasm and didn't hurt as much)
2. Delayed her orgasm without seemingly affecting mine (she took longer to get her orgasm... and it was just as powerful as before).
3. It seemingly reduced overall rawness (more than water soluble lubricant).

In the past the water based lubricants didn't help my wife and actually made it take longer for me to climax, so we stopped using them a long time ago. The new lubricant was wonderful, since it stayed in place helped both of us... just outstanding stuff.

The second assignment was for my wife to mentally prepare herself more before having sex for 30 minutes before having sex. We only tried this once this last week, but the results were incredible for both of us. My wife was actually in the moment, she didn't just go through the motions of sex mechanically, but actually wanted to be there. Sex was really fun rather than feeling like a medical procedure. It felt like one of those 4-6x a year times a year when she actually wants sex. 

Time will tell if all this continues to work for us, but we are excited to get some good early results! 

This week we covered some of the basics of Pursuer/Distancer (P/D), specifically in terms of how it can explain some of my wife's sexual desire issues. At times I need to pursue a bit less, and she needs to not distance herself as much. Other times my wife needs to pickup on clues that I'm going to pursue her soon so she can begin to mentally prepare herself (like we did last week), and I have to watch for more clues so I know when to back off and give my wife more space.

This is our homework for this week, to go over a 2 page list of various characteristics of the pursuer (me) and the distancer (my wife). Should be interesting.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> I have to watch for more clues so I know when to back off and give my wife more space.


I like where this is going.

If you recognize yourself as a "pursuer", you may have some work to do to understand why. As an example, lots of guys use sex as the ultimate form of validation. "If she has sex with me, I/our relationship must be OK". We pursue our SO's for sex to get validation and unwittingly suffocate them and their passion. The result is bad sex and resentments. 

Sounds like you are in good hands with your therapist.:smthumbup:


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> I like where this is going.
> 
> If you recognize yourself as a "pursuer", you may have some work to do to understand why. As an example, lots of guys use sex as the ultimate form of validation. "If she has sex with me, I/our relationship must be OK". We pursue our SO's for sex to get validation and unwittingly suffocate them and their passion. The result is bad sex and resentments.
> 
> Sounds like you are in good hands with your therapist.:smthumbup:


It's funny you should ask this very question. Our therapist said in a couple of weeks she's going to have an IC session with me to get to the bottom of that (and I'm sure a few other issues).

I've been thinking about that question off and on today, and I'm still thinking about it now. I have a lot of things that come to mind though I'm not sure I've got a proper answer yet.

Part of it is my my general sexual drive and how I know she's my only outlet (besides self satisfaction). Though that begs the question why do I have the drive that I do, and is it healthy/"normal"?

I can definitely say it's not a form a validation for me, to be honest I never thought of sex as validation of anything. Not to say that some couldn't or shouldn't... just not something that ever occurred to me.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi browncoat ~

Hey, it's great that you have already seen some amount of progress! 

I think sometimes it's easy to lose sight of what really great things our spouses actually DO for us in amongst our feelings of what they DON'T.

You are so blessed ... you have a wife who is WILLING to be accommodating, WILLING to go to counselling to try and make things better ... WILLING to try doing the things the counselor suggests... oh, there are so many good things there if you look for them. 

Concentrate and ruminate on those positive things about your wife for a bit, then go give her a big kiss. 

Best wishes.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> You are so blessed ... you have a wife who is WILLING to be accommodating, WILLING to go to counselling to try and make things better ... WILLING to try doing the things the counselor suggests... oh, there are so many good things there if you look for them.


Thanks I really do feel blessed. I am really and truly grateful that we can work through things together, because I know that I too have a lot to work on. It's part of being human, that whole imperfection thing. 

I honestly make a point every day to compliment her when I see or hear something that uplifts me (so it happens several times a day and it's always genuine). I don't want to just sit there and berate her, that will never work. There's a place to express your pain, but then it's time to put it on the back burner and just live life.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I originally answered MEM in the middle of the "People Obsessed with Sex on TAM" thread, but it was growing wildly and my stuff was off topic. So I copied my response here, and linked to the original in case you wanted the context:



Browncoat said:


> Mem, I asked my wife to read over your post... primarily because I wanted to make sure I answered for the both of us, not just from my perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

WEEK 3 (4/20/12)
---------------------------------------

Last week we were asked to go over the pursuer and distancer attributes. It definitely helped us to understand where some of the dynamics in our marriage were coming from, and some other attributes didn't apply at all. Practically it helped us to better understand each others needs and few things we both need to avoid doing.

This week I've been working on trying to do more little things around the house for my wife. Even started tackling some of those honey-dos that have been on her list a bit too long. 

She's been trying to work more on focusing on time we spend together, to try and be in the moment more, when we kiss or are together in bed. Her focusing has been a real boon both in and out of the bedroom for both of us. It's really improved our sex life a great deal, and both of our enjoyment.

Her focus is something we both need to keep working on together, because for the first time in I can't remember how long (that is more than a quick goodnight peck on the lips), she's coming up to me and initiating kissing and hugging. It's almost been jarring to be doing my normal routine and here she comes.  A welcome change, but change just the same since I tend to get very focused on one thing at a time (very typical guy I know).

Pain during and after sex though, has for some reason become a bigger issue this week. We are going to try and schedule for a 3rd doctor's opinion this upcoming week. We both want to try and find a sub-specialist in the area of sexual pain for women, based on the really good suggestions we got here (thanks everyone). Two other doctor's have told us nothing is wrong... clearly something is. We kind of doubt that pure psychologically projected pain would linger for days on a women who has to actively think about sex or being sexy. There's something physiologically off here.

In therapy this week we discussed passion. My passion for her and how/when it comes on especially strong. Mostly we talked about how my wife feels about my passion and her own passion.

My wife feels a bit intimidated when my passion is most strong, not because she's repelled by it, but rather because she's concerned that she may never be able to come close to feeling that sort of passion for me. This concerns both of us, though I think her more than me. She is concerned that she just doesn't feel passion, not for me, not really for anyone ever... frankly it hurts to hear it but I think she may be right.

Next week we are both going in for IC, mostly focused on passion issues, but other issues I'm sure will come up.


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

I am happy for you and your wife. You are doing great work here and seeing so many benefits. Bravo!:smthumbup:



Browncoat said:


> Pain during and after sex though, has for some reason become a bigger issue this week. We are going to try and schedule for a 3rd doctor's opinion this upcoming week. We both want to try and find a sub-specialist in the area of sexual pain for women, based on the really good suggestions we got here (thanks everyone). Two other doctor's have told us nothing is wrong... clearly something is. We kind of doubt that pure psychologically projected pain would linger for days on a women who has to actively think about sex or being sexy. There's something physiologically off here.


The brain is one powerful organ. I would not rule out the psychological and agree with leaving no stone unturned for a potential physical problem.



Browncoat said:


> My wife feels a bit intimidated when my passion is most strong, not because she's repelled by it, but rather because she's concerned that she may never be able to come close to feeling that sort of passion for me. This concerns both of us, though I think her more than me. She is concerned that she just doesn't feel passion, not for me, not really for anyone ever... frankly it hurts to hear it but I think she may be right.


This is a big flag for me. I think there is gold in this mine!

Also, from an earlier post - I think you should keep working on trying to understand the nature of your own sexual desire and drive. You may have it figured out and you may not - you will know when you do.

This is a heart warming story. Keep it up!


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> WEEK 3 (4/20/12)
> ---------------------------------------
> My wife feels a bit intimidated when my passion is most strong, not because she's repelled by it, but rather because she's concerned that she may never be able to come close to feeling that sort of passion for me. This concerns both of us, though I think her more than me. She is concerned that she just doesn't feel passion, not for me, not really for anyone ever... frankly it hurts to hear it but I think she may be right.
> 
> Next week we are both going in for IC, mostly focused on passion issues, but other issues I'm sure will come up.


Hi Browncoat ~

Awesomeness ... I like hearing of the progress you are making and the awareness that both of you are generating.

I wish your wife would consider posting here about her point of view of the sessions. To me, she seems to be doing a lot to keep your marriage going, and sometimes, I get these hints from your writings that you are still very unhappy even with the effort that she does do ... how do you think that may impact her ability to keep up the effort? how do you think that may impact her level of desire to connect with you sexually?

I snipped only a part of your journal post here ... something for you to ponder on...why is she required to feel passion in the same way that you do in order for it to be classified as 'passion'?

Best wishes.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Hi Browncoat ~
> 
> Awesomeness ... I like hearing of the progress you are making and the awareness that both of you are generating.
> 
> ...


Thanks again for the encouragement. I had my wife read your post. I've been trying let her know that folks on here want to hear from her as well. Hopefully it's a matter of time. 

Well let me assure you that I think very highly of my wife, I think she truly is a first rate person (and she knows I feel this way). As I've mentioned before, she truly is my better half... there's just no two ways about it (and for me that's not just a figure of speech). I know she's really does want to make me happy, and I'm trying as well to make her happy. There is a lot of love between the two of us, and I don't mean that in the sexual sense.

She's caring and supportive of me, and all our children. She's a wonderful mother, a great cook, really runs and manages all the logistics of a family so well (kid's special events/activities, doctor/dentist appointments, shopping, etc.). She's a first rate wife and friend, and I love her very very much. She's the woman I want to grow old with.

Really the only area of our marriage at all that I have any complaints with are issues of desire and passion. I'd like to see the pain in sex no longer be an issue as well, but I don't hold that against her for a second.

The changes she has made, I've appreciated and I know she knows that I do too. She's told me so. I don't want to discourage her for a second.

I'm no saint though, I'm still working to remove resentment I let build up through years of frustration. It honestly hurts me that I have any resentment at all towards her, and I'm ashamed of it (because she really is such a great lady in so many ways). That is what I believe (and my wife agrees) is the biggest thing I need to change, and I am trying... it's just hard. That is what I hope to be working through with the ST next during IC (and the weeks to come).

I'd define passion the same way the dictionary does: Passion | Define Passion at Dictionary.com
Especially 1-5 and 8, only all on the love/lustful side of things. It's a feeling so intense that at times you just ache from it.

My wife has to consciously work to desire me sexually at all, even to bring herself to kiss me with more than a peck on the cheek. She doesn't mind sex so much, and the orgasms are nice, but for her it's just not important. Mostly because her mind just naturally finds her thoughts, tasks, and plans to be of greater value and interest. She finds reading anything (books, magazines, etc.) to be of greater importance... excepting when she really concentrates on the fact that she does love me. Sexuality at any level is largely an afterthought with her.

In that sense, I say she has no passion. In that she doesn't manifest any of the attributes of passion. Recently she's started to show some sexual desire for me, and that's wonderful. Though I wouldn't say this new found desire is nearly strong enough be be considered passion.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
I think it is great you can share this with your wife. And I believe you have a great deal of maturity and conviction. 

As a point of confirmation: nothing feels as good, leaves the same intense bonding response for me as intercourse. My dilemma is simple:
- even if it does start out NOT painful for her, it often starts to hurt midway thru
- if have told her to say when that happens, still if it does and we stop, she feels really bad 
- she kept this to herself long enough she has an anxious association between intercourse and pain

Before proceeding our start point is different. For our first 15 years I would say our sex life was exceptional. The last 7 years have had some challenges with vulvodynia being by far the biggest. Fortunately my wife feels that we have a responsibility for making this work. 

My part of it has been simple but consistent. I told her that if/when she goes 2 months without any pain down there, we can try to resume intercourse. Until then we simply are not going to have it, full stop. I think we have had enough painful encounters to make it difficult for her to break the sex=pain association. So I think in that area we are done. And I have told her so. To be continued...



UOTE=Browncoat;695243]I originally answered MEM in the middle of the "People Obsessed with Sex on TAM" thread, but it was growing wildly and my stuff was off topic. So I copied my response here, and linked to the original in case you wanted the context:[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Continuing....

So where does that leave us?

My wife has slowly come to the realization that "I" have accepted that intercourse is over and don't appear resentful about it. And that has removed two negative associations connected to sex, pain and it's evil twin anxiety, and performance anxiety related to the question of "can I have sex until we/he finishes?

Her overall reaction to all of this has been a combination of relief and a strong desire to find a way to play, that works for both of us.

As for treatments. She has seen plenty of doctors and specialists. New have tried the different types of lube. AND when this has flared up, which it sometimes does even despite not having had sex as a trigger, it is very unpleasant. So my mantra is: I just want you to find a diet/lifestyle combo that leaves you pain free down there. If she is pain free "in general" and wencan do other stuff, I am happy.






MEM11363 said:


> Brown,
> I think it is great you can share this with your wife. And I believe you have a great deal of maturity and conviction.
> 
> As a point of confirmation: nothing feels as good, leaves the same intense bonding response for me as intercourse. My dilemma is simple:
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks MEM, we'll have to ask the doctor to look into if she has vulvodynia. We looked it up and a lot of the symptoms seem to match with a lot of what she feels.

The most annoying part of the pain is that we've not had a diagnosis, which has been frustrating. Hopefully we'll get something concrete soon, so we know what we are dealing with.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
Gentle suggestion. Decouple sex and intercourse. What I mean by that is you let her know that if she has anxiety or is sore that instead of either: avoiding because it might/will hurt OR sucking it up and hoping it won't hurt or won't hurt "too much", that she do something "else" for you and/or with you/to you. 

I know you feel your wife really is working "with you" on this. All I can tell you is that her strong resistance to your coming to the doctor means she is not being fully open with you. I am not saying she has lied to you. I am saying there is stuff in her head related to this situation that she is choosing not to share. 






Browncoat said:


> Thanks MEM, we'll have to ask the doctor to look into if she has vulvodynia. We looked it up and a lot of the symptoms seem to match with a lot of what she feels.
> 
> The most annoying part of the pain is that we've not had a diagnosis, which has been frustrating. Hopefully we'll get something concrete soon, so we know what we are dealing with.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Brown,
> Gentle suggestion. Decouple sex and intercourse. What I mean by that is you let her know that if she has anxiety or is sore that instead of either: avoiding because it might/will hurt OR sucking it up and hoping it won't hurt or won't hurt "too much", that she do something "else" for you and/or with you/to you.
> 
> I know you feel your wife really is working "with you" on this. All I can tell you is that her strong resistance to your coming to the doctor means she is not being fully open with you. I am not saying she has lied to you. I am saying there is stuff in her head related to this situation that she is choosing not to share.


Thanks Mem, just talked to my wife. We'll try mixing it up more... once in a blue moon we have sex w/o intercourse. We'll up that ratio a lot more and see what comes of that.

As for the pain though, the problem is that often times we don't know when/if it's going to kick in. It almost seems random. Sometimes it's penetration, sometimes right after her orgasm (generally first one), and sometimes later on after her first orgasm.

Still perhaps dropping how often we have intercourse in general might help a lot. Definitely worth trying.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Here is a book written by 2 Sex Therapists to help couples "Make Love" without Intercourse .... 

 Let Me Count the Ways: Discovering Great Sex Without Intercourse : Books



> "*Let Me Count The Ways*":
> 
> * defines "outercourse", shows why it is a valuable addition to peoples' sexual vocabulary, and explains how readers can maximize their comfort and pleasure with it.
> * shows how individuals and couples can increase their body's erotic functioning, and increase sexual satisfaction;
> ...


I looked up those 1-5 & 8 on that Passion link ....

*1*. ardent love or affection 
*2. * intense sexual love 
*3.* a strong affection or enthusiasm for an object, concept, etc: a passion for poetry 
*4*. any strongly felt emotion, such as love, hate, envy, etc 
*5*. a state or outburst of extreme anger: he flew into a passion 
*8.* a. any state of the mind in which it is affected by something external, such as perception, desire, etc, as contrasted with action 
b. feelings, desires or emotions, as contrasted with reason 



> *Browncoat said*: My wife has to consciously work to desire me sexually at all, even to bring herself to kiss me with more than a peck on the cheek. She doesn't mind sex so much, and the orgasms are nice, but for her it's just not important. Mostly because her mind just naturally finds her thoughts, tasks, and plans to be of greater value and interest. She finds reading anything (books, magazines, etc.) to be of greater importance... excepting when she really concentrates on the fact that she does love me. Sexuality at any level is largely an afterthought with her.
> 
> In that sense, I say she has no passion. In that she doesn't manifest any of the attributes of passion. Recently she's started to show some sexual desire for me, and that's wonderful. Though I wouldn't say this new found desire is nearly strong enough be be considered passion





> *Browncoat said*: We also hope to touch on the issue of her lack of passion, as it's something I'd love to feel from her (more than perhaps 1-2 times in our 15 years of marriage).





> *Browncoat said*: My wife feels a bit intimidated when my passion is most strong, not because she's repelled by it, but rather because she's concerned that she may never be able to come close to feeling that sort of passion for me. This concerns both of us, though I think her more than me. She is concerned that she just doesn't feel passion, not for me, not really for anyone ever... frankly it hurts to hear it but I think she may be right.



I'm at a loss to even try to explain where *Passion* springs...or what stirs it... (a state of intense longing for union with another). WOW...is that ever complex... from genetics, to an act of our will, hormones, the wiring in our brains, our molded experiences, enthusiasm, unrelenting striving for our purpose in life, or living it. 


For Mrs Browncoat ...I feel you are overwhelmingly blessed to have such a loving faithful man at your side , a priceless gift.... I so hope you find this Passion for him, awakened somehow...With God and Therapy, all things are possible, right ! 

It was difficult for me to read his words in this...just imaging it's loss is enough for me personally, I'd be a basketcase without that in my marraige. Your husband is very strong. It is so evident he loves you so very very deeply...... I wanted so bad to find some inspiring words for you in this >> 

Fruit in Season: Have a passionate love affair with your husband

Passion: Find your passion in life. 

 What Creates Passion?

Master's Mind Ministry - Your Personal Passion

“Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... waiting... and though unwanted, unbidden, it will stir... open its jaws and howl. It speaks to us... guides us. Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have? Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... the ecstasy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank. Without passion, we'd be truly dead.” 
― Joss Whedon


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

Hello

I was just browsing and thought about your wife's "symptoms". Is it possible she has been having clitoral orgasms without the G spot/vaginal part? 

I know lots of females would say an orgasm is an orgasm. My personal experience, though, is that a clitoral and a "deeper" orgasm are different. I had clitoral orgasms most of my life, in fact, the way I achieved these was for my H to rub his penis against the clitoris without penetration first. It would come pretty quickly, like your wife, in 5 min maybe. Afterwards, there is no way you can get anywhere near the nub, it's way too sensitive. (However, I could still handle penetration since he was not touching that part, but it was not really enjoyable, sort of like the way you described your wife's rag doll situation). 

Fast forward 15 yrs or so. I discovered my deeper orgasm. I would not achieve a vaginal/G spot orgasm without clitoral stimulation, but it was not JUST clitoral stimulation. It's a very subtle art of taking care of both parts. My H still cannot do it well. I can do it very well when I masturbate, and it takes a LOT LONGER to reach an orgasm this way. When I do get there it's 10 times more intense than the "superficial one". 

Also, before when I was only having clitoral "orgasms" ( I don't even really consider those true orgasms anymore), my lubrication was MUCH less. And intercourse was often painful because I could not feel ready. I often wish my H would just hurry up and get it over with because it was painful. 

Now problem is how he can last longer and keep it inside for a truly earthshaking O.  Still working on that. 

Bottom line. I wonder if your wife masturbates and has tried to explore the G spot concept. It is amazing how it could take me that many years to learn it. Doctors don't know everything. (Oh, I have the right to say that. I am one.)


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

So I'd love to puff out my chest and say that I'm this uber-husband who is super awesome in bed and knows it all... lol but I'm not that arrogant. We've tried (on many occasions) to hit the g-spot, I'm not convinced we have often over the years (from your description maybe we've hit it a few times, the whole 10x thing).

We don't go out of our way to stimulate the clitoris during sex (i.e. it's never been a focused effort of ours), but no doubt it's getting stimulation all the same.

So like the nerd that I am, I looked it up (as I have in the past). So I found these two links, let me know if you think they are giving good advice and/or diagrams.

Where to find the G-spot: G-Spot Location Including Picture

If that's the case it's further up and around the public bone than I thought. If so, definitely not scoring big on the uber-husband score sheet (i.e. had the wrong location in mind when we both tried to hit it). I had heard it described before as just being a few inches up against the front wall, but not up and around like that. So we tried anywhere from 2-5 inches in (varying it from attempt to attempt), and trying to position ourselves to increase contact on that front vaginal wall... but basically by purposely not going in all the way.

Secondly positions wise, do these sound viable: G-Spot Positions - AskMen

BTW don't know anything about these sites in general... just did a google search to find things out (yep I'm a big nerd). Makes me feel like the guys from "Office Space" that had to look up money laundering from the dictionary. 

It seemed to me though that suggesting going with her back towards me would make it harder to it the spot in the diagram... not trying to argue with what may work, just not seeing how that works since, like many guys, I curve upwards a bit and if she's facing away that would seem to make a gap between my penis and her g-spot.

Sorry if this is all being too graphic, but I don't know how I'm going to use cartoon language and euphemisms while seriously learning how this works.

When I last asked her if she masturbated (she wouldn't lie, we are both very honest with one another) she told me she's not bothered to try in years (outside of mutual masturbation when she tends to use pressure and my leg, i.e. no penetration). She'll have to try and find it, but even before when she did masturbate she didn't penetrate (again all pressure) so some of that will be new to her.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

SA thanks for the links. Later today when my wife has some spare time she'll read through those links.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> Thanks again for the encouragement. I had my wife read your post. I've been trying let her know that folks on here want to hear from her as well. Hopefully it's a matter of time.
> 
> Well let me assure you that I think very highly of my wife, I think she truly is a first rate person (and she knows I feel this way). As I've mentioned before, she truly is my better half... there's just no two ways about it (and for me that's not just a figure of speech). I know she's really does want to make me happy, and I'm trying as well to make her happy. There is a lot of love between the two of us, and I don't mean that in the sexual sense.
> 
> ...


The reason I asked about passion is that I sound very similar to your wife, sans the pain part. It took quite a long time in our marriage for my husband and I to really *accept* the way we are, accept the way the other is, and learn to work with what we had, instead of trying to change everything about the other.

As such, we threw the ideas of what should constitute passion and sex out the window and started over. It made a huge difference in our lives ... to not have the old expectations creating a chain around our necks weighting us down and truly killing whatever passion we had.

MEM has given you some ideas to reframe your point of reference as to what may constitute sex and intimacy, perhaps you need to think about reframing what may constitute passion and desire. I know that my husband now sees that my willingness to let him help cultivate my desire and that my willingness to work on the marriage with him DOES constitute passion in the way that I am able to express it.  My general personality is more reserved and less flamboyant ... that has not changed over the course of my lifetime so far ... but I am capable of very deep feelings and it is into that well of intimacy that my husband wishes to drink... in whichever way I am capable of offering him that drink...whether it is flamboyant and overt and lustful or whether it is quiet and deep and contemplative.

This is one of the words that we have learned to apply in our marriage and it has made a huge difference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devotion

Is a person who is diligently working and beavering away in the background to keep things on the forefront going any less passionate than the person who is out on the frontline and in the spotlight? Are they not of equal importance and value? Can one exist without the other?

Can you value the passion that your wife does bring in the way that she is capable of bringing it? Can you help to feed it and nurture it and grow it?

And, to your wife ... can she work to let the other things go and learn to live in the moment ... to live in the moment with you IS passion ... to *devote* her mind and her heart to you exclusively during intimacy is passion ... you don't even have to be physically active or do anything overt ... it is simply a matter of being.

Best wishes.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Wow Enchantment thanks for sharing! My wife is certainly capable of showing deep/flamboyant emotions at times in life, but like you said she is generally more reserved and accommodating.

For the first 12 or so years of marriage I didn't let the passion/desire side of things bother me (or at least I wasn't cognizant of it bothering me if it did), it's really been increasingly my wish for the past 3 years or so. Perhaps I've been looking at it all wrong, I'll seriously think about that. Thanks again, I really mean that.

I will say this with all certainty outside of the bedroom my wife is all manner of devoted to me and to the family at large. I couldn't ask anyone to be more devoted over the length of our ~15 years of marriage and 13 years of parenting, and I know she often times feels she falls short (she has lofty personal goals), I make a determined effort to reassure her of that often.



Enchantment said:


> Is a person who is diligently working and beavering away in the background to keep things on the forefront going any less passionate than the person who is out on the frontline and in the spotlight? Are they not of equal importance and value? Can one exist without the other?
> 
> Can you value the passion that your wife does bring in the way that she is capable of bringing it? Can you help to feed it and nurture it and grow it?
> 
> And, to your wife ... can she work to let the other things go and learn to live in the moment ... to live in the moment with you IS passion ... to *devote* her mind and her heart to you exclusively during intimacy is passion ... you don't even have to be physically active or do anything overt ... it is simply a matter of being.


Since we started therapy she really started to do what you were describing in the last paragraph above. It's that allowing and focusing her attention to live in the moment that has made one of the largest differences since we started therapy. It has been day and night frankly! We would love it, if it came naturally to her. Perhaps with time and practice it will. Even if it's an effort, the effort is no less appreciated. 

You're right though, that I don't want to change my wife in the core of her being. That's never been my desire. I was originally hoping to find some lost vestige of passion in her, something we could cultivate together. Still it may not be in her nature to be passionate in the way I'd define it. I do really love this new, as you describe it devoted, side to her intimacy with me a LOT (we both do really). Perhaps your right, perhaps I've been looking for the wrong thing in her. Not to say that what we are discovering isn't beautiful... it's just different.


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## jennifer1986 (Feb 4, 2012)

Hi Brown

Your description is not too graphic at all. I wish we could draw diagrams here.

The fact is, this G spot thing is very confusing. I am a total NERD just like you and read those two links. It's interesting how all literature point to a spot on the anterior (front) vaginal wall. But....

For the life of me, I think I have a G spot in the front AND the back. I would not be too surprised since many females have a sensitive area near the rectum wall (therefore get some stimulation from anal. However, I have never tried anal sex and would not even consider it. I am just saying there are some nerve endings around the posterior vaginal wall). 

So, I think the best thing for your wife is to overcome some reservation and try to find her sensitive areas deep in. I do not know about your wife but when I grew up masturbation was a no-no (yes I had been caught), and I seriously had mental blocks. Also for years my style was to hump a pillow or blanket (and thus grew this dependency on clitoral stimulation and thought that was the only orgasm). When I finally discovered how to pleasure myself I only wish my fingers were longer. :rofl: Also, I do not like vibrators since I cannot control the rhythm. 

The other thing is, in one of the links they talk about this "flower press" (whatever) position, where you are doing missionary but your wife can put her leg over your shoulder. I have found that VERY helpful since I am kind of in a sideway position, and depending on if I put my left or right foot over H's shoulder, I get very different stimulations. In fact this made us discover me lying towards the right side gives me most pleasure. I highly recommend trying it. 

Oh, and you mentioned somewhere your wife does not like back (I really hate the word doggy) style. I used to hate it too, and felt "organs were banged around" like your wife, but I think it's just some women have an ante- or post-verted uterus and therefore the cervix is more tilted, and direct pressure on it might be uncomfortable. I have found when I am adequately stimulated (and kudos to your wife doing the 30min getting herself prepared exercise) and if H is not too rough, my nervousness goes away and eventually he can bang with all abandon and I am not hurting. Take it in small steps. 

You are a very caring husband. I have a wonderful h but he sort of lacks in the caring-about-if-wife-satisfied department.  I think you guys will discover a lot more pleasure in the coming wks.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

WEEK 4 (4/27/12)
---------------------------------------

This week we each had an IC session with the ST. 

My session focused more on my background. Physical abuse as a child, overly strict discipline, and how I went about making friends as a child (by extension what I value out of friendships). Most of it felt like it was more for the ST to get background information on me. I got a slightly clearer understanding of why I don't really value acquaintances much (although I have a ton of them to this day), and why I put a larger emphasis on having a few quality friends.

My wife's IC was a lot more interesting. They delved into some hangups she has about beauty and being sexy. She knows I find her sexy, but she doesn't feel it or see it in herself.

They determined that a lot of the reason why she struggles with feelings of being sexy was because she hit puberty very late. She was about 16/17 when she finally started developing breasts and a figure. To this day she looks a lot younger than her age.

As a result she was never the focus of boy's attention in high school. In college she always commuted (lived at home first year, and later years went to a different commuter college), so she again didn't get much male attention (that she picked up on at least).

She had a few boyfriends, but most were short lived (a few days to a week). She could tell they were just trying to get into her pants, and she wasn't interested in jumping into bed. That did not make her feel sexy either.

My wife's homework assignment is to find things that make her feel sexy.

We won't be meeting until week after next.

As an aside though I really wanted to give thanks to those who have contributed to this thread! My wife and I looked over all you guys wrote together, and everyone said something that really spoke to one or both of us. I really can't thank you all enough. 

MEM in particular because of his suggestion to separate sex from intercourse we've had what I hope is the beginning of a major development for us. We decided to have "sexless sex" (as we call it) more often. That is sex where intercourse is not on the table... or more specifically where she knows I won't ask for intercourse at all.

Twice this last week, we were having sexless sex and for the first time EVER she asked me to have intercourse with her! :smthumbup: I couldn't believe me ears, you have to understand this has NEVER happened in the 15 years we've been married! I was ecstatic and couldn't believe my ears!!! So twice in one week is just, unbelievable... truly and utterly unbelievable. A week ago I would have said that was impossible: for her to ask and really want to have intercourse.

Foreplay ended up being much longer and more intense than normal. It is like the prospect of intercourse was a dark cloud that hovered over my wife in bed, and once it was removed she felt more free and open.

Now as excited as I am, I'm also trying to keep myself from being overly excited. I don't really want a major let down if this turns out to be a short term change in my wife. As wonderful as it is, I fear that if I let myself be as happy as I want to be about this new development that I might be setting myself up for major disappointment. So I'm cautiously excited (OK cautiously thrilled).


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## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

I love this thread, Browncoat! So much good advice about action you are taking to resolve the situation instead of gender bashing. Great approach to getting your wife to feel sexy. That is the key to my mind; the brain is the most important sexual organ in the body.


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## blueskies30 (Jan 27, 2010)

Toshiba2020 said:


> Remember that intimacy includes more than just sex, there are many other things you can do in that category. Maybe im just weird but i personally can get near as much enjoyment out of a amazing backrub as i can having sex, and after either i feel just as close with my wife, so think of other things she might be able to do to please you that she enjoys doing or atleast isnt as painful.


I think this is my husband. He really enjoys a back rub and then it turns into a whole body rub often times. We recently bought avibrating hand held massager and use it on eachother. My husband often uses it on me sexually for sexual play while the kids are distracted with something else

I have found that I'm getting some feelings of more initimate closeness by giving my husband a back massage/whole body massage


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Enchantment - so well named - so very gifted*

Brown,
Enchantment is at the high end of insightful where this topic is concerned. Her posts track close to 100 percent with my experiences in most cases. She and her H got to where me and my W got. Their actual path was different, but the destination was the same. 

As for passion - true arousal is certainly a wonderful thing. Lacking that, it takes a special type of love to come to your marriage bed without arousal and bring instead a loving heart and complete focus on your partner. 

When WE finish I always think, however we got here I sure am lucky my W loves me this much....





Enchantment said:


> The reason I asked about passion is that I sound very similar to your wife, sans the pain part. It took quite a long time in our marriage for my husband and I to really *accept* the way we are, accept the way the other is, and learn to work with what we had, instead of trying to change everything about the other.
> 
> As such, we threw the ideas of what should constitute passion and sex out the window and started over. It made a huge difference in our lives ... to not have the old expectations creating a chain around our necks weighting us down and truly killing whatever passion we had.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
I am absolutely delighted for you. That is just wonderful news. 

As for your W and all things sexual. Has she tried any herbs? I am not a new age medicine guy. However ginseng is a sexual stimulant for men - not as sure for women but i have used it and I noticed the effect. No side effects either. 

Do you and your wife ever playfully wrestle? That turns my W on. There is the purely playful type and our mildly sexually oriented version. In our version:
- I am limited to wrestling (well not totally)
- She gets to punch, elbow, knee (no head butting or biting) - scratching does sometimes happen
- She is not allowed to target groin or eyes, everything else is fair game.

If she pins me (hmmm - your guess is as good as mine it has never happened)
If I pin her (which is rare) she has to say uncle or I spank her. I believe she needs to see a speech therapist - as she seems unable to express the sounds needed to form the word "uncle". 

What about certain types of sexualized R rated movies. Last Tango in Paris...






Browncoat said:


> WEEK 4 (4/27/12)
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> This week we each had an IC session with the ST.
> ...


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

We've not tried herbs or any specific supplements (outside of doctor prescribed estrogen cream because she is perimenopausal). We are open to natural solutions, not so fond of chemicals from some pharmaceutical lab. Did a quick Google search in our area and it turned up a few places nearby for us to check out. 

You know we joke around all the time, but it's always verbal. I'll catch her in a playful mood out of the bedroom when the kids are asleep and see how that goes. She's a pretty happy-go-lucky type person, so shouldn't be hard. Might have to wait until after this week though... mother in law is in town. 

We do watch a number of Rom-Coms/Rom-Dramas but not typically the more erotic type. Just not something we've ever tried. I'll see how interested she is (surprising her would definitely not win points if she's not interested).

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

So my wife went to the gynecologist this morning.

The doctor found something this morning that he believes might explain many of the pains/discomfort she experiences during sex. She has muscle spasms in her vagina.

The doctor in addition to asking us to talk to our sex therapist about this, gave my wife the name of a physical therapist to help with the problem. Apparently she will have to do some work at home daily in addition to additional visits to the physical therapist.

No name was given for the condition, but sounds like it's: Vaginismus

On a potentially unrelated note, she's also due for an ultrasound on Thursday to look into a potential problem. She's having her 3rd period in less than 2 months (she has been having them erratically since starting menopause). The doctor has some concern that there could be something else causing this particular bleed. More tests are required so we will know on Thursday.

So I'm hopeful that this will help us! 

This week has been up and down for us emotionally. We are going through Sheet Music, and it's brought up a lot of feelings (guilt, remorse, sadness, etc.). It's also started some constructive but difficult discussions.

My wife's mother is in town as well, kids have performances and projects this week.

Sexually this week this has been one of those "one step back" weeks that followed our "two steps forward" last week. We both know we have to expect it... just been one of those weeks.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

SESSION 5 (5/20/12)
---------------------------------------
We actually had the sessions last week (for my wife the Thursday before this past week).

This has been very much a period of highs and lows for us.

In my session we discussed how lack of willingness on my wife's behalf to try anything new: dressing nicely (more than sloppy shorts + t-shirt always), wearing any jewelry at all, wearing any makeup at all, really any effort to think/dress/act sexy. I feel that I'm pulling her along to do anything new. It's just getting me very down, more so than ever before.

What's more is I feel that I'm shutting down sexually with my wife. I've only once ever lost an erection during intercourse... it's happened twice in one week now. Both times it just never came back while she was around. I couldn't even manage to masturbate with her in the room. Once she was gone, absolutely no problem. I've never had this problem before. I'm not thinking about anything negative or doing anything different... I'm just finding my desire for her wilting rapidly. I still have a strong sex drive, it's just getting increasingly difficult to be with her.

She mentioned that we will bring this issues up together this week when we meet together again as a couple. So nothing really new to take from all this.

Overall the frequency of having sex is up, but the quality across the board is pretty much the same as ever (though once in a while she actually seems to be present). She continues to struggle mightily to pay attention to us during sex. Her mind continues to wander just everywhere. Often times she just lies there like a stone, it just destroys me will to even continue having sex with her at all.

We discussed what objections she has to sex since it's something pleasurable. She says that sex takes too long. I told her if she wants take off as soon as she's climaxed. She thinks that takes too long as well. She went on to explain that when she was single she would masturbate... and that for her it takes about 20-30 seconds that way. That's the kind of speed she wants, she realizes it's unrealistic with real intercourse... but just the same that's how she feels. She says the orgasms from intercourse are far stronger, but she admits that she just doesn't find it worth the effort. She's agrees with me that if I didn't have a sex drive, she would honestly be content and relieved if we didn't have sex except maybe a few times a year.

On a positive note, she went to physical therapy for the muscle twitches she has inside her vagina. Those were cleared up in one session. So pain during sex has been nullified... excepting that sometimes it just takes too long for her to wait for me to climax. So she pulls off when it starts to get uncomfortable.

Our ST believes that 5-10 minutes at a time is the most we can expect, and that appears to be the case. Sadly for me I am no where remotely in the ballpark of completed by that point. What's more is that for the past several weeks when she attempts to give me oral sex I completely loose all erection within 20-30 seconds... and this has been happening around 80-90% of the time. This too never happened before. So we've cut out oral sex on me, which in turn is making sex take longer. She gets tired doing hand jobs. So these days it's becoming increasingly difficult to climax during sex at all for me. I'd say I'm closer to 70-80% failure to climax now during sex this past month. This includes me attempting to masturbate post-intercourse.

I feel we are overall regressing rather than progressing.  Hoping things will improve soon.

As for accepting who she is sexually and living with it... I feel that I just can't. We discussed how often she truly felt sexually attracted to me... that outside of being aroused, she actually wanted me sexually. It has happened only once in our 15 years of marriage (and that was 12 years ago).

I'm in better shape (very visibly so) than I've been in a long time. I am dressing better, smelling better (cologne), keeping myself more trimmed hair + beard just the way she likes, and yet nothing from her. She feels no attraction to me or to any other man or woman.

I'm seriously beginning to believe that she is asexual. She's had an assignment for weeks now to try and find what she finds sexy in any man or woman... so far NOTHING. She has really been looking, but nothing is sexy to her.

It's starting to appear that the most I can expect is for her to be aroused, hopefully not be overly distracted during sex, climax and be done.

We are almost done with Sheet Music (taking a while I know). Hopefully something new will turn up during ST this week.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Brown It may seem like you are going in the wrong direction but I don't think so. It is like having to take apart a wall to find a leak. First, you make a bigger mess get at the root and start to rebuild. 

You guys are at the tear down stage now and finding the root cause. Don't be disappointed at your wife's revelations. They are beliefs nit written inn stone and they can be changed. 

I think it's great that she is talking. Have you discussed with the therapist what is happening with your erections? 

Maybe you are thinking too much. Do you think that when she is helping you have an orgasm, she is not interested? Can you relax and accept that whatever she does is out of love. Accept her love and relax?.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> Brown It may seem like you are going in the wrong direction but I don't think so. It is like having to take apart a wall to find a leak. First, you make a bigger mess get at the root and start to rebuild.
> 
> You guys are at the tear down stage now and finding the root cause. Don't be disappointed at your wife's revelations. They are beliefs nit written inn stone and they can be changed.


Thanks for your feedback Catherine. I hope you are right. I'm afraid right now feel like I had hope a month or so ago... now not so much.  I'm not giving up though... just it's really really hard for me to not get frustrated and discouraged.




Catherine602 said:


> I think it's great that she is talking. Have you discussed with the therapist what is happening with your erections?


I love that she is talking, sure this would be so much more difficult w/o that.

I did mention my erection issues with my ST, she said we'd cover that this week. At that point it had happened just once, so I think she was hoping it was an issue that would go away rather than get worse. I emailed her later in the week telling her how it's gotten worse in detail (more than above), but so far no reply.




Catherine602 said:


> Maybe you are thinking too much. Do you think that when she is helping you have an orgasm, she is not interested? Can you relax and accept that whatever she does is out of love. Accept her love and relax?.


She clearly isn't interested. You can tell her mind is a million miles away, and she admits to as much. I know she's doing it out of love, but these days I find her being bored in the room as more of a hindrance than a help. What's more her boredom seems to be more apparent and prevalent. At times she is that way during sex more too. It's like how she used to be at times, laying there like a rag doll. I mean totally lifeless, dispassionate, disinterested, and distant. It really sucks the excitement out of sex for me.

It's not just me misinterpreting her too, she admits she finds it hard to stay focused. That she is struggling to not let her mind wander all the time. The thing is she climaxes so easily, and sex feels good (until it doesn't), and intercourse builds up to a bigger climax... but she just doesn't care. It's like the whole process is more bother to her than it's worth.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

You might have mentioned this already, but has your wife had her testosterone levels checked? I remember when I went off birth control pills and things were taking a while to get back to normal I had all my hormone levels checked, and it turned out my testosterone levels were really low My libido was also really low at the time. 

For me, acupuncture and herbs got things back in balance. It might be worth having your wife's levels checked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Lyris said:


> You might have mentioned this already, but has your wife had her testosterone levels checked? I remember when I went off birth control pills and things were taking a while to get back to normal I had all my hormone levels checked, and it turned out my testosterone levels were really low My libido was also really low at the time.
> 
> For me, acupuncture and herbs got things back in balance. It might be worth having your wife's levels checked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is on the low side, but we tried testosterone supplements for a few months to no avail. No difference in desire, drive, anything.

We are actually going to try it a second time though, at the request of our ST.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

The fact that she acts obviously bored while having sex seems needless to me and says something about her ability to emphasize. 

Why make it so obvious? Sex is such an emotionally open time. You are open to her and she essentially hurts you when you are vulnerable to her. Why would an otherwise loving woman do that? 

Is she aware of that? When i read to my kids were toddlers, they wanted me to read the same book over and over. I really felt that if I read it one more time I would hang myself. 

But I read it with gusto. I hid my boredom and when I got into it and saw the delight on their faces I instantly became engaged. 

I don't see why your wife has to show her boredom at a time when you are so sensitive. She has to be angry about something but she is choosing a cruel way to express it. 

Do you think that this is something you can bring up in therapy? Bringing it to her awareness and how painful it is may make her think about it. 

The very best to you and your wife.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I just thought of somethng. Did you read the artcles about women being aroused but not conciously aware of it? 

Maybe the lack of effect with the testosterone was really a lack of letting the effect into a conscious awareness.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

We will be talking with the ST again today. Some of these things you mentioned Catherine I'll bring up today.



Catherine602 said:


> The fact that she acts obviously bored while having sex seems needless to me and says something about her ability to emphasize.
> 
> Why make it so obvious? Sex is such an emotionally open time. You are open to her and she essentially hurts you when you are vulnerable to her. Why would an otherwise loving woman do that?


Interesting take, I always chalked it up to her just not caring about sex. You could very well be onto something though.

She says she's trying to work on staying more in the moment, she just finds it terribly hard. Like it's serious work, which is part of the reason I just think she doesn't really like sex all that much at all. My take is that she likes the orgasms, but aside from that it's just this thing she does for me. It's not that she doesn't receive pleasure, but for whatever reason anything else would still be preferable use of her time. 

It's not like I'm just laying there either, I'm doing most of the motion because she claims that after 10-15 seconds or so she's just too tired to keep doing much of anything. So pretty much it's all on me.



Catherine602 said:


> Is she aware of that? When i read to my kids were toddlers, they wanted me to read the same book over and over. I really felt that if I read it one more time I would hang myself.
> 
> But I read it with gusto. I hid my boredom and when I got into it and saw the delight on their faces I instantly became engaged.


She is aware of it, and I can almost see it when she catches herself and tries to refocus. It would be comical if it didn't bother me so much.

She can see me get as excited as possible, I mean my excitement is all over my face and body... does nothing for her. Sex has never been interesting to her. I have laid down next to her before going to sleep been so in the mood I couldn't sit still and she would be reading a book (one of her favorite things). I would start to masturbate because I knew she wouldn't be interested... doesn't concern her a bit. Not the slightest bit interested at all. She's always been this way. I honestly feel like sex to her is just a big hassle. That she knows I enjoy and love it... but to her it's just a complete chore. I could understand that more if she didn't get orgasms frequently, much of the time very powerful ones. She does... but just doesn't seem to care.



Catherine602 said:


> I don't see why your wife has to show her boredom at a time when you are so sensitive. She has to be angry about something but she is choosing a cruel way to express it.
> 
> Do you think that this is something you can bring up in therapy? Bringing it to her awareness and how painful it is may make her think about it.


She's normally not the passive aggressive type. I will bring this up though in ST.




Catherine602 said:


> The very best to you and your wife.


Thanks, I appreciate it.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Browncoat ~

Well, you know how they say that into every life a bit of rain must fall? I've found that life and marriage are just a bit of a roller-coaster at times - ups and downs - sunny days, rainy days. You have to learn to take them all in stride.

Have you and your wife ever read David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage"? It's something of a weighty tome, but packed with some valuable information. One of the things he recommends for couples that seem to 'disconnect' during sex do is to have sex where they look in to each other's eyes - it forces them to maintain more than just a physical contact and connection and instead, be emotionally present and 'in the moment' with their partner.

You mentioned in one of your posts that you have generally been unhappy ... not just with this aspect of your marriage, but in general.

You know, I do believe that we are often given the very things that we NEED in our lives in order to force us to grow as a person ... but so many of us buck under the strain of these and refuse to see them as such opportunities because they don't fit with what we WANT (although they may fit with what we NEED).

I just received a quote in my inbox this morning ... it said "God gives every bird its food, but He does not throw it into its nest." There is always some amount of work and strife in our life for us to see clearly that which we want versus that which we need. Don't give up, Browncoat. Through all of the strife, and out the other side again, you have the opportunity to become a much better man. 

Best wishes.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Catherine602 said:


> I just thought of somethng. Did you read the artcles about women being aroused but not conciously aware of it?
> 
> Maybe the lack of effect with the testosterone was really a lack of letting the effect into a conscious awareness.


Not sure which article you mean? I skimmed over the thread, do you mean this article:
Do You Want Your Partner To Stroke Your Ego Or Your Genitals? | Psychology Today

Or is there something else you thought I should read, because I'm not sure that that article deals specifically with what you are getting at.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> Not sure which article you mean? I skimmed over the thread, do you mean this article:
> Do You Want Your Partner To Stroke Your Ego Or Your Genitals? | Psychology Today
> 
> Or is there something else you thought I should read, because I'm not sure that that article deals specifically with what you are getting at.


That's actually a very good article to read, Browncoat - asking yourself whether you are able to be a happy person in your own right or whether you expect others outside of yourself to validate your worth and 'make' you happy. We all need to get to the point where we validate ourselves and are happy simply in and of ourselves, regardless of what our spouse may or may not be doing.

One thing about testosterone ... it's usually the combination and percentage of not just testosterone, but the other hormones - estrogen and progesterone - in a woman's body that can affect physical desire...the totality of those hormones should be looked at and not just concentrate on the one...and even if all of the stars are aligned perfectly and the hormonal profile is beyond perfection ... if a person's MIND and HEART are not there, all of the wonderful hormones in the world are for nought...as I believe that old chestnut about what's between your ears is most important. 

Best wishes.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I don't expect her to validate me. If I had to be on my own I would.

It is painful to have strong sexual urges every day and be told passively or actively over and over and over every day, year in year out that you aren't wanted. Even when we do have sex that she would rather be doing the dishes, vacuuming the floor, or planning the kid's after school schedule than have sex with me... to be with me.

She doesn't like to kiss for more than a few seconds at a time (unless she feels like she has to stay with me while I climax). We used to kiss for literally 30-60 minutes and she was very into it when we were dating... that's just gone.

She doesn't like to hug very long unless she is tired and wants a neck/back rub to go along with it.

It's like EVERYTHING in life is a higher priority to her than spending time being affectionate. She has to mentally make it a point to spend that time with me. To allow herself to make time... even though she will often times read books, news papers or magazines, sometimes for hours a day.

I come in priority after kids, house chores, her reading, scheduling events for the kids, etc... I am the lowest priority in her life.

So yes I can be happy on me own, but it's quite another matter to be rejected and treated as so low by the woman you love. Perhaps she doesn't really love me as much as she says... IDK.

I should say though that when she does really work on focusing on me, that it appears that a couple of times a month she is really and truly there when we are trying to be intimate.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm late to this thread. How often do you guys "do it?"


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## Lostinlove82794 (May 2, 2012)

Hey Browncoat, 

I haven't been on here in a while but just read your most recent response on here. Maybe she is frustrated with herself? Maybe she feels like less of a partner because she isn't enjoying it because of the pain it causes her. And if she can't enjoy the whole act it is hard for her to feel good about herself to feel worthy of your kisses and other affection and therefore is hiding behind all the other "priorities". Will she talk to you about how she is really feeling? 

I can understand your frustration. It sounds like she is making excuses for some reason.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> It's like EVERYTHING in life is a higher priority to her than spending time being affectionate. She has to mentally make it a point to spend that time with me. To allow herself to make time... even though she will often times read books, news papers or magazines, sometimes for hours a day.
> 
> I come in priority after kids, house chores, her reading, scheduling events for the kids, etc... I am the lowest priority in her life.


Not sure I have ever realized this in reading your threads. Am I to understand that she does not even think to spend (non-sexual) time with you?


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

Not sure if it's already been asked or I already asked it because this thread reminds me of another, how many inches are you around (not length). Since you both waited until you were married and didn't have a lot of experience, could you be to wide for her?

The last guy I asked this said he was 6 3/4 inches around. That is huge and well above the average 4.5"-5.5" inches circumference. Some of your largest porn stars do not have that much girth.

I know that is somewhat private, but her pain could be because of your size/width.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> She doesn't like to kiss for more than a few seconds at a time (unless she feels like she has to stay with me while I climax). We used to kiss for literally 30-60 minutes and she was very into it when we were dating... that's just gone.
> 
> It's like EVERYTHING in life is a higher priority to her than spending time being affectionate. She has to mentally make it a point to spend that time with me. To allow herself to make time... even though she will often times read books, news papers or magazines, sometimes for hours a day.
> 
> I come in priority after kids, house chores, her reading, scheduling events for the kids, etc... I am the lowest priority in her life.


I used to feel this way as well. Other than the hug issue, for some reason she always enjoyed a hug. Other than that, this is pretty accurate with what was happening with me and my wife.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Enchantment said:


> Have you and your wife ever read David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage"?


No not read it, but I've added it to my amazon cart just now.



Enchantment said:


> It's something of a weighty tome, but packed with some valuable information. One of the things he recommends for couples that seem to 'disconnect' during sex do is to have sex where they look in to each other's eyes - it forces them to maintain more than just a physical contact and connection and instead, be emotionally present and 'in the moment' with their partner.


I've asked her to do that a lot. I don't like to constantly have to hound her on this. I look into her eyes often, but find that her eyes are closed or she just looks around the room. That's one of the ways she shows to me a complete lack of interest (the part about looking around the room, while her body grows lifeless).



Enchantment said:


> You mentioned in one of your posts that you have generally been unhappy ... not just with this aspect of your marriage, but in general.


Not happy that I don't have friends like I used to when we lived out in California (my wife and I were tight with a group of guys and gals... it was an amazing bunch of friends but we all moved away). I've just not made any real connections here (form people I see on a daily/weekly basis).

I have tons of acquaintances, but I've always been the type of person who values a few really close deep friendships to a 100 acquaintances. Even if those acquaintances know me well (and I them). I have friends online, but that's just not the same. You can't go out for a beer with online friends or go to a ball game. Don't get me wrong, I'm as friendly and as kind as I can be around others IRL... I just don't get any real personal fulfillment out of spending time with yet another acquaintance. Often times that's just a chore to me.

So that means I need to rub elbows with different people. That means I either change jobs and/or churches. I have no real interests at all that I could say take a class in. The things that interest me are more personal projects... but it doesn't fill the hole I feel in my life from lack of any close friendships.

Changing churches is something we've spent some time here and there looking into but nowhere else has come close to "clicking" (for anyone in the family).

Changing jobs is a big move, and one I don't take lightly... especially with the responsibilities I have (a LOT of people rely on me). I couldn't entertain such a move at this time, and likely couldn't for at least another 6 months to a year.



Enchantment said:


> You know, I do believe that we are often given the very things that we NEED in our lives in order to force us to grow as a person ... but so many of us buck under the strain of these and refuse to see them as such opportunities because they don't fit with what we WANT (although they may fit with what we NEED).


I hear what you are saying. I don't truly need for anything. I want to feel emotionally connected to someone who isn't dependent on me, but I won't die without that.

I love my children, and my kids and I joke around a lot... but they will never be a substitute for a true friend. The relationship with my children is first and foremost parent-child not buddy-buddy.

I love my wife and we joke around a lot, but she's made it clear in therapy and in talking that she wants less of me in her life not more.

It's this loneliness, despite being surrounded by the 5 people I love most, that drives my unhappiness in life.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> I'm late to this thread. How often do you guys "do it?"


These days we "do it" fairly often (since starting sex therapy 3-4x/week by my wife's choice). I infrequently ask for sex anymore. Quite frankly I'm tired of rejection, and she's been scheduling me in when she can. It's just not very satisfying to me the vast majority of the time. I'd say about 33-50% of the time I don't even climax. Much of the rest of the time I feel that my wife is completely disinterested in being there for much of the time during sex.

It's just not very satisfying for me outside of 1-3x/month at best. For my wife she climaxes about 99% of the time... it's very rare she she doesn't, most of the time they are pretty powerful.

During most of our marriage we were sexless <10x/year.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Lostinlove82794 said:


> Hey Browncoat,
> 
> I haven't been on here in a while but just read your most recent response on here. Maybe she is frustrated with herself? Maybe she feels like less of a partner because she isn't enjoying it because of the pain it causes her. And if she can't enjoy the whole act it is hard for her to feel good about herself to feel worthy of your kisses and other affection and therefore is hiding behind all the other "priorities". Will she talk to you about how she is really feeling?
> 
> I can understand your frustration. It sounds like she is making excuses for some reason.


She doesn't like her attitudes about sex, and we do talk about them weekly. Though I try not to every day... just don't want it to be the focus of every conversation.

I don't think the kissing and hugging is reflective of what happens in bed. I think what happens in bed is reflective of her entire life attitude towards me... which is that I'm not a priority for her. For years I complained about how little we spent being affectionate intimate (because she would recoil), and she did nothing about it. The therapist has helped her to try and schedule me in... and I'm not going to say that isn't wonderful (it is wonderful!). It's just that it's something she's going through the motions of the vast majority of the time. It's not something she really looks forward to or enjoys during. She likes being pleased here and there, but she would prefer it be very very very short. Like tops a minute or two (that includes kissing/hugging/foreplay and/or intercourse).


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Not sure I have ever realized this in reading your threads. Am I to understand that she does not even think to spend (non-sexual) time with you?


She likes to talk and watch movies together. Spending that type of non affectionate time is fine at the end of the day. She's on board with that most of the time, unless she's got her nose in a book that's really captivated her (she LOVES to read).

It's just that anything affectionate... that's not something she enjoys except for it lasting a second or two for kissing/hugging and for sex she'd prefer it be over in couple of minutes (foreplay included).


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## lamaga (May 8, 2012)

Oy, Browncoat. I'm just catching up.

I really hate that you are having to go through this. You are such a solid guy. Yes, with the friends -- you need to find some. Unfortunately that gets a bit harder with age (at least I've found it so), but I think it's worth your time.

Sounds like you are working about as hard as you can on this relationship. Do you think she is working as hard as she can? I don't really see it, but of course, we aren't hearing her side. Seems like she's taking you a bit for granted.

Anyway, hang in there, amigo.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> It is painful to have strong sexual urges every day and be told passively or actively over and over and over every day, year in year out that you aren't wanted. Even when we do have sex that she would rather be doing the dishes, vacuuming the floor, or planning the kid's after school schedule than have sex with me... to be with me......
> 
> She doesn't like to kiss for more than a few seconds at a time (unless she feels like she has to stay with me while I climax). We used to kiss for literally 30-60 minutes and she was very into it when we were dating... that's just gone.
> 
> ...


Thirty years ago, I could have written this exactly word for word. I would have added, church, her family, her career, and even the pets to the list. 

My wife never withheld affection, she always tried. But she was *so not into it.* It was depressing beyond words

"Rock bottom, lowest priority" is exactly how I felt. 

Her family was military, mine is rural. We always had firearms in the house. I ended up destroying the only key to them because a couple times I seriously thought that a pretty orange flash would be a quick end to a miserable life. 

My wife is not selfish or cruel. She absolutely has a heart of gold and always has. I have no explanation for her apathy at the time and neither does she. It was not because we didn't love each other. We did. Very much.

Sometimes I read posts on TAM where the LD partner so obviously doesn't get it and I have to remind myself that my wife didn't either. --Not for a long time.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> Not sure if it's already been asked or I already asked it because this thread reminds me of another, how many inches are you around (not length). Since you both waited until you were married and didn't have a lot of experience, could you be to wide for her?
> 
> The last guy I asked this said he was 6 3/4 inches around. That is huge and well above the average 4.5"-5.5" inches circumference. Some of your largest porn stars do not have that much girth.
> 
> I know that is somewhat private, but her pain could be because of your size/width.


I'd rather not give explicit dimensions, but we've talked it over with the gynecologist and it was his opinion that I wasn't too large for her.

After 3 attempts to diagnose many of the pains she experienced during sex, we did find out she had Vaginismus. She went to physical therapy for that, and it didn't take long at all (yay)... we've not had most of the pains now for weeks (maybe a month?). She does get worn out after too long (10-15 minutes of intercourse), but it's not like before where she would start to hurt the moment she climaxed (or even shortly before). She's not had painful penetration issues for a while too, so hopefully those too are a thing of the past.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> She likes to talk and watch movies together. Spending that type of non affectionate time is fine at the end of the day. She's on board with that most of the time, unless she's got her nose in a book that's really captivated her (she LOVES to read).
> 
> It's just that anything affectionate... that's not something she enjoys except for it lasting a second or two for kissing/hugging and for sex she'd prefer it be over in couple of minutes (foreplay included).


I do think you need to rethink how you view this. I don't think she just does not want sex and affection, I think she actively does not like it. I say this because I am sure there are things she does not want to do, but does with a smile because it is expected (see Catherine's example of reading a children's book for the 47th time in a row). But with you and sex, the best she can do is look bored and out of it. Consider that such an expression may in fact be an improvement over the anger and dislike she is actually feeling. The alternative, it seems to me, is that your feelings are truly that unimportant to her.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

lamaga said:


> Oy, Browncoat. I'm just catching up.
> 
> I really hate that you are having to go through this. You are such a solid guy. Yes, with the friends -- you need to find some. Unfortunately that gets a bit harder with age (at least I've found it so), but I think it's worth your time.
> 
> ...


Thanks Lamaga.

Yeah I'm working on finding more friends again out here, but it is more difficult with age (like you said). I keep in touch with some of my old friends I have elsewhere by email and phone... but it's not the same as going out and having fun together.

I'm hoping to change things at church and work to give me more opportunity to meet new friends. I think that's about all I can do, is change things and hope for the best. I've thought about signing up for a class, but frankly don't really know what I'd like to do. Seems silly to take a class I'm not interested in, hoping that a friend will materialize, when I could be spending time with my kids who I love.

I wish she would work harder at it, but I don't know what to do there. I don't want to pester or hound her all the time, but at the same rate I feel like if I don't push/encourage her from time to time to stick with some of the things the ST has asked her to do she doesn't do much of anything (from my perspective). She says she thinks about things a lot, but still doesn't have any answers for why she feels the way she does. I don't get it, and we talk about things together... thinking perhaps together we can figure it out. Nothing. 

She wonders at times if she's offering all the emotion and affection she can muster. She says she feels like a cold fish for things being the way they are... but she just doesn't know if she has anything more inside.


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

That explains the pain issues. I've come to know your TAM personality over the month I've been here, reading your replies and what not. Sorry you have had so many obstacles. Your previous post I quoted described a lot of what I was going through, but I got too comfortable in the marriage and paid attention to everything else except her. We both kind of hit the "off" switch. When I realized what was happening, I didn't blame myself, rather, I looked at everything she stopped doing for me. I went through a phase where I felt unloved, unwanted, and just complacent. My solution was simple, I just had to put her back first in my life. With that, and her so open to being loved again, she made huge changes and I think possibly had a mid life crisis (last child, tubes tied). She changed a lot, in a good way. Your problem seems much more deep rooted and complex. Hopefully things turn out well.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Thirty years ago, I could have written this exactly word for word. I would have added, church, her family, her career, and even the pets to the list.
> 
> My wife never withheld affection, she always tried. But she was *so not into it.* It was depressing beyond words
> 
> ...


My wife isn't selfish or cruel either... just not in her nature. I hope like you some day to be able to look back at this experience like a distant memory. 

Thanks for sharing Ocotillo! I need some hope.

At times dealing with all this brings me low... very low. Still I'm not suicidal. Even in my darkest of moments, I want to be there for my children and their grandchildren. I've had a lot of hard things in my life, but one thing I've learned from it... no matter how dark the present looks things do find a way to become bright again. I don't always know how or why... but it does get bright again. So, at the risk of sounding overly poetic: I'm just waiting for the sun to rise again.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Aristotle said:


> That explains the pain issues. I've come to know your TAM personality over the month I've been here, reading your replies and what not. Sorry you have had so many obstacles. Your previous post I quoted described a lot of what I was going through, but I got too comfortable in the marriage and paid attention to everything else except her. We both kind of hit the "off" switch. When I realized what was happening, I didn't blame myself, rather, I looked at everything she stopped doing for me. I went through a phase where I felt unloved, unwanted, and just complacent. My solution was simple, I just had to put her back first in my life. With that, and her so open to being loved again, she made huge changes and I think possibly had a mid life crisis (last child, tubes tied). She changed a lot, in a good way. Your problem seems much more deep rooted and complex. Hopefully things turn out well.


My problem isn't that my wife doesn't feel loved... it's that she feels that I give her too much affection. Yet I'm already feeling starved for affection, as I've ratcheted down the amount of affection I show her incredibly already. I used to give her little hugs and kisses throughout the day (I work from home). Now I hardly ever do that. It's been like that for months yet she still feels like it's too much.

So I've decided that until the next ST session I'm just going to treat her like a friend. If she wants to be affectionate I'll accept it and respond in like kind.

I've already not initiated sex for nearly a month now (except once when I just felt that I had to have her). I've asked her to stop scheduling me in for sex until our next appointment unless she is genuinely in the mood. I expect to be sexless until that appointment but who knows.

I don't want to turn our relationship to ice though. So maintaining our friendship is still a priority to me. Joking around, watching the occasional movie, talking walks together with the family, etc. All still stuff we'll do.

I don't want to hurt the kids either, so I really want to keep them in the dark that anything different is going on between my wife and I.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I do think you need to rethink how you view this. I don't think she just does not want sex and affection, I think she actively does not like it. I say this because I am sure there are things she does not want to do, but does with a smile because it is expected (see Catherine's example of reading a children's book for the 47th time in a row). But with you and sex, the best she can do is look bored and out of it. Consider that such an expression may in fact be an improvement over the anger and dislike she is actually feeling. The alternative, it seems to me, is that your feelings are truly that unimportant to her.


I agree that she doesn't want sex (except once in a bluemoon as long as it satisfies her rare craving, and only until she climaxes). I think as far as affection goes, it's not that she doesn't want any... she just wants just the tiniest bit.

Trust me I already feel very unimportant to her... very unwanted as anything but a friend. I'm not just saying that to be dramatic or go try and muster sympathy from others. It's just how I feel. I hope it will change in time.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> I agree that she doesn't want sex (except once in a bluemoon as long as it satisfies her rare craving, and only until she climaxes). I think as far as affection goes, it's not that she doesn't want any... she just wants just the tiniest bit.
> 
> Trust me I already feel very unimportant to her... very unwanted as anything but a friend. I'm not just saying that to be dramatic or go try and muster sympathy from others. It's just how I feel. I hope it will change in time.


You post a lot about what a wonderful person your wife is and how she is kind to others. I expect that much of that is based on watching her interact with others. Can you think of examples where she does things willing for others even though she does not particularly enjoy them? Has she given or provided for others based solely on the joy she receives for giving?


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> You post a lot about what a wonderful person your wife is and how she is kind to others. I expect that much of that is based on watching her interact with others. Can you think of examples where she does things willing for others even though she does not particularly enjoy them? Has she given or provided for others based solely on the joy she receives for giving?


She is very patient and loving with the kids. She is exactly the person who will read the same book 50 million times for the kids even though she hates the book. Personally I make them switch out the books more often, lol I can't stand it after say 35 million. 

She baby sits for others often, and most of the time we get nothing in return (though sometimes she trades baby sitting... typically though my mother takes care of that).

She always looking for new things to cook that the whole family will enjoy. She spends a good amount of time every couple of weeks preparing healthy, yet delicious, snacks for the kids. She carefully weighs out the portions to make sure they are eating the proper amounts.

She carefully plans our schedule and tries and encourage the kids to try new things and keep active after school. She drives the kids to most of these events (since they are during working hours typically), and sits and waits for them to finish (she finds this very boring).

Most days she picks the kids up at school, even though sitting in the line to pick them up is also very boring for her. She does this because she knows the kids really appreciate it.

She volunteers at meals on wheels driving meals to random people's houses all over the area. She also volunteers for programs at school that need doing and aren't much fun at all: like proctoring tests. She often times acts as teacher's aids, typically doing whatever grunt work the teachers don't want to do so they palm it off on volunteers.

She also volunteers to help out others at church when she can, and frequently is the go to person for Sunday School substitute even though the she's always a bit intimidated about being responsible for teaching other people's kids.

If the kids need something for school, or need mom's taxi for things... she's always willing. Even though most of the time she finds it boring, she does it because she loves them.

We typically order some food for Friday night (our family night). Most of the time she gets what others want... even if she doesn't like it, and never complains. She will mention what she wants, and she will on occasion mention if she's had something more often recently than she'd like... but if it's what others want, that's what they get.

Those are just the things that jumped to mind right off the bat.

So yeah, I'd say she puts others before herself. Though mostly that's directed towards the kids... still she's a mother of 4 so that shouldn't be too surprising.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> She is very patient and loving with the kids. She is exactly the person who will read the same book 50 million times for the kids even though she hates the book. Personally I make them switch out the books more often, lol I can't stand it after say 35 million.
> 
> She baby sits for others often, and most of the time we get nothing in return (though sometimes she trades baby sitting... typically though my mother takes care of that).
> 
> ...


So why is it so hard for her to do something important for you?


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So why is it so hard for her to do something important for you?


Don't know. She tries, but somehow with sex (intercourse or just fooling around) unless she's on her way to an orgasm... she's just not interested and can't seem to muster up enough interest.

I've asked her this very question so many times, she has no answer. She offers herself more often these days... but her heart just isn't in it. Though until our next ST session I'm just going to ask her to refrain from scheduling sex with me unless she's really interested.

I can spot any amount of pretense in her a mile away too, and she knows that I can see it plain as day (even though I don't make a big deal about it). So that may have something to do with the amount of effort she puts into feigning interest.

Mainly though I think it's because she just doesn't like it enough, and finds it a waste of time. She's told me that she thinks it takes far too long and the orgasms while much better than masturbating take so much longer... she just doesn't like that it takes 15+ minutes vs 30 seconds.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> Don't know. She tries, but somehow with sex (intercourse or just fooling around) unless she's on her way to an orgasm... she's just not interested and can't seem to muster up enough interest.
> 
> I've asked her this very question so many times, she has no answer. She offers herself more often these days... but her heart just isn't in it. Though until our next ST session I'm just going to ask her to refrain from scheduling sex with me unless she's really interested.
> 
> ...


So she can muster up the enjoyment of reading a book 50 millions time to a child or sit and watch an activity of her child (which she is admittedly bored with) but can't do the same to have sex with her husband?

It seems to me that at some point, the why's don't really matter, you know? It is the action that speaks clearly.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I wonder if your wife has some kind of sensory integration issues? It is very unusual for a woman to reach orgasm so quickly and easily and often during intercourse. She sounds very sensitive.

When you say she doesn't like affection, do you mean physical affection? because it sounds like she is verbally affectionate and enjoys spending time with you. She just doesn't like to be kissed or hugged or otherwise touched? Maybe she is generally very sensitive to touch and it very easily becomes overwhelming to her? In children with these issues it's called sensory avoidance.

When you said she closes her eyes or looks around the room during sex it reminded me of how I felt when I was pregnant and still breastfeeding my older child. It was too much, I really felt a strong aversion; my skin would crawl and I would feel nauseous. I used to try and distract myself, sometimes I'd even bite my wrist.

Maybe after your wife has had an orgasm she feels similarly and is trying to distract herself. This would probably be exacerbated by the fact that you take quite a long time to climax. 

I don't know, it sounds very complicated. And it also sounds like your wife is working to try and change things, so I disagree with other posters who have said she doesn't seem to care. But maybe this is not an issue that can be resolved, I'm very sorry.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So she can muster up the enjoyment of reading a book 50 millions time to a child or sit and watch an activity of her child (which she is admittedly bored with) but can't do the same to have sex with her husband?
> 
> It seems to me that at some point, the why's don't really matter, you know? It is the action that speaks clearly.


In general though once she's no longer building towards an orgasm it gets really difficult for her to stay focused. Yes it does say something... though mostly to me that she's not interested in sex.

I agree though too it means she finds it hard to stay in the moment for my sake, which is a big disappointment for sure. I wish that wasn't the case, that it wasn't hard work for her to enjoy just the intimacy of the moment. It is and she's working on it. Just hope for my sake that she finds a way to deal with her lack of interest soon, and that it's not something she can't do over the long haul.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Lyris, some interesting ideas which my wife and I talked over.



Lyris said:


> I wonder if your wife has some kind of sensory integration issues? It is very unusual for a woman to reach orgasm so quickly and easily and often during intercourse. She sounds very sensitive.


I agree, and yes she is very sensitive. So much so that she sometimes gets overstimulated after her first climax, but that doesn't happen as much if she has a g-spot climax vs clitoral.



Lyris said:


> When you say she doesn't like affection, do you mean physical affection? because it sounds like she is verbally affectionate and enjoys spending time with you. She just doesn't like to be kissed or hugged or otherwise touched? Maybe she is generally very sensitive to touch and it very easily becomes overwhelming to her? In children with these issues it's called sensory avoidance.


I had my wife read this to be sure, but no she's not overly sensitive to non sexual touch... she just has a hard time giving herself time away from other tasks that crowd her mind.



Lyris said:


> When you said she closes her eyes or looks around the room during sex it reminded me of how I felt when I was pregnant and still breastfeeding my older child. It was too much, I really felt a strong aversion; my skin would crawl and I would feel nauseous. I used to try and distract myself, sometimes I'd even bite my wrist.
> 
> Maybe after your wife has had an orgasm she feels similarly and is trying to distract herself. This would probably be exacerbated by the fact that you take quite a long time to climax.


I asked. She says she closes her eyes so that she can try and refocus on me and get back into the moment. Looking around the room is just disinterest.... sadly.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Brown,
I want to back up to a post you made earlier. You mentioned that she dislikes that you "show her too much affection". 

Something seems "off" to me. More so even than with the sex. Granted I am "wired for touch" so we touch a LOT. It is also true that I have a good sense for the times when I think perhaps she wants some physical space - but that is rare. 

If being touched, huggged, caressed, etc. feels BAD to your W that is a distinct and major league problem. I do not grope my W - but have posted about how our full body hugs are very intimate if not explicitly sexual. I would never, ever hug anyone else like that. 

How often do you say "I love you" to her? How often do you initiate saying it? How often does she? 

This might seem odd but I know for certain that if were always the one saying "ILY" first, my W would feel crowded and would NOT want much affection. If you are primarily the driver of the "ILY / I miss you / I love you so much" etc. you might try an experiment. STOP initiating for a week and let her set the pace. If she says it, say it back. Watch what happens. 

If you have this routine where every time you leave the house you say "ILY" - switch to a friendly "see you later". 

Part of the reason your W may take you for granted (she doesn't WANT to - she just does) is that if you are initiating too much - you seem clingy. And the affection just reinforces that. 

This might be obvious - but when I hug my W - it is all about HER - what comes across to her is the "He is showing me love - he isn't doing this so I will show him love". 




Browncoat said:


> In general though once she's no longer building towards an orgasm it gets really difficult for her to stay focused. Yes it does say something... though mostly to me that she's not interested in sex.
> 
> I agree though too it means she finds it hard to stay in the moment for my sake, which is a big disappointment for sure. I wish that wasn't the case, that it wasn't hard work for her to enjoy just the intimacy of the moment. It is and she's working on it. Just hope for my sake that she finds a way to deal with her lack of interest soon, and that it's not something she can't do over the long haul.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Good idea MEM. I'll do just that. Yes I typically am the initiator of ILYs, so I'll just hold back except in response to her's. To be honest though I'll have to pay attention to really know how often I say ILY though, to be honest not 100% sure.

I was planning to ratchet things way back over the next week and a half until the next ST session anyway. I'm going to let her initiate any physical activity and I'm just going to reciprocate the same level of affection she gives.

Just in general I'm going to back off even further than I have been already. I already have dramatically cut down how much I talk to her during the day and the little shows of affection over the past month. I don't even initiate sex anymore (outside of once). To be honest I'm just feeling emotionally spent and tired, so a break may just be in order anyway.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> In general though once she's no longer building towards an orgasm it gets really difficult for her to stay focused. Yes it does say something... though mostly to me that she's not interested in sex.
> 
> I agree though too it means she finds it hard to stay in the moment for my sake, which is a big disappointment for sure. I wish that wasn't the case, that it wasn't hard work for her to enjoy just the intimacy of the moment. It is and she's working on it. Just hope for my sake that she finds a way to deal with her lack of interest soon, and that it's not something she can't do over the long haul.


So she can stay in the moment for others, but not for you? At least as far as sex is concerned - what about in other areas? Does she do anything else for you that she does not enjoy (take in a ball game when she hates sports, help you with an unpleasant chore). If so, how is here demeanor as compared to when she helps others doing things she does not like.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So she can stay in the moment for others, but not for you? At least as far as sex is concerned - what about in other areas? Does she do anything else for you that she does not enjoy (take in a ball game when she hates sports, help you with an unpleasant chore). If so, how is here demeanor as compared to when she helps others doing things she does not like.


I've always been very careful to not include others in things I like but I know they don't. I almost never talk about work or my hobbies... I just don't like to bore people. In fact the moment I can tell on someone's face that they've lost interest I typically get them talking about themselves or their interests immediately.

I also don't ask for help when I can do something myself. I don't like to bother people.

So to answer your question, no she doesn't suffer through other things for my sake... because I never ask. If anything I tend to take an attitude of: I'm fine, I've got this.

When I do need help she helps, but typically it's short/quick little jobs that take a matter of seconds.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> I've always been very careful to not include others in things I like but I know they don't. I almost never talk about work or my hobbies... I just don't like to bore people. In fact the moment I can tell on someone's face that they've lost interest I typically get them talking about themselves or their interests immediately.
> 
> I also don't ask for help when I can do something myself. I don't like to bother people.
> 
> ...


So does she put herself out there for you in anything? Is there anything that she does for you out of the joy of giving to you, even if it is not something she likes? If so, what is her demeanor in those things?


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So does she put herself out there for you in anything? Is there anything that she does for you out of the joy of giving to you, even if it is not something she likes? If so, what is her demeanor in those things?


Sadly I'll have to think about this.

Again not really sure there's a lot of opportunity to do things for me that she doesn't like or isn't already doing for the family as a whole.

I very rarely ask for anything, even around the holidays or my birthday... I make everything about others. I don't even like my birthday celebrated at all, or anything done much at all for Father's Day. The only exception I make is if kids want to do something for me for those two days (even then I accept it because I know it makes them happy to give me something... I don't feel particularly comfortable with gifts at all). Though I love to give.

The chores that are mine around the house I do alone. I will help out with other's chores, but I'll never ask or even feel comfortable with others helping me. It makes me feel uncomfortable.

I don't even like receiving gifts all that much, mostly because I just don't want much at all (materially).

Pretty much the only thing I ask of my wife is that she love me, and that's pretty much manifested in affection and sexual intimacy (that I want her to enjoy as well... because even there I like to give more than I get).


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I was abused as a child. It has taken 3 YEARS of therapy over 13 years, reading 100's of self help books and a whole lot of work on my part to heal.

Prior to this I was incapable of putting myself out there for my husband. I had an intense fear of intimacy. I could have sex and loved it but I wanted it to be fast and over quickly hence why he hated it.

I'm adding this to the conversation because unless you've been abused you have no idea how much it messes up your ability to love and be loved. I wanted the affection from my husband and yet it repelled me at the same time. I felt like I couldn't breathe so I pulled away often so much that he quit all together.

I'm better now and can actually sit with him on the couch and cuddle, am okay with 'some' groping and he can hug me without me pulling away. For the better part of my marriage I was unaware that I did these things and even had he pointed them out it wouldn't have changed anything. I was too 'checked out' to do anything about it.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> Sadly I'll have to think about this.
> 
> Again not really sure there's a lot of opportunity to do things for me that she doesn't like or isn't already doing for the family as a whole.
> 
> ...


Consider that she takes you and your marriage for granted because she does not need to make any effort in it. People appreciate what they have to work for. When they get something for free, they don't treat it as well and often take it for granted. You, by not letting her do any of the work, communicate that the marriage is "free" and nothing she has to earn. She does not need to work for it.

This flows with MEMs advice about not smoothering her (that is, turning down thermostat).


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks Mavash. When I married my wife I knew she was sexually abused as a child.

We both thought it was fairly mild in that no penetration took place (highly inappropriate petting). She was so young most of the years that it happened that she didn't even think anything of it at the time. When she finally got old enough to realize what was happening and that it bothered her, she put an end to it.

We both thought it was something in the past, and that she had grown past it. Though as we are going through therapy we are finding it's left scars on her attitudes towards sex, which were only made worse by her mother's attitudes towards masturbation and sex.

So that is something we are working through. She could very well be manifesting some or even many of the things you talked about. Some very good food for thought, thanks! I'll talk to my wife and have her read this over later today/tonight when she's back home.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Consider that she takes you and your marriage for granted because she does not need to make any effort in it. People appreciate what they have to work for. When they get something for free, they don't treat it as well and often take it for granted. You, by not letting her do any of the work, communicate that the marriage is "free" and nothing she has to earn. She does not need to work for it.
> 
> This flows with MEMs advice about not smoothering her (that is, turning down thermostat).


Right now the thermostat is definitely set to low. Since therapy yesterday I only touch her if she touches me, and even then it's limited affection and short. She's kissed me once, but I've returned only a short gentle peck back.

I'm pretty much treating her as a friend unless she shows some affection, and even then I'm returning only what she gives... or even perhaps a bit less than she gives.

I hear what you are saying about the marriage being free vs a reward for effort given. Not sure how that should play out over the long haul. For the time being I plan to continue what I've been doing over the past day or so until at least next Friday when we meet with the ST again. I'll decide then if I want to change anything.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

Browncoat,

You say that you don't really like receiving gifts, but you want your wife to show love to you. What if your wife shows love by giving gifts? In your relationship, have you rejected or downplayed your wifes gifts? She may feel like she isn't allowed to love you because you don't want her gifts. If her love language has been rejected or been given no opportunity to show, she won't feel very loving towards you in other areas.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> We both thought it was fairly mild in that no penetration took place


There is no such thing as 'mild' childhood abuse. My scars run deep. In fact over the past few weeks I've been extremely emotional and crying a lot. I'm finally starting to feel the pain of what my parents did to me. I can't talk about it to my husband because I don't like crying in front him. Once recently I did let him in (I had locked myself in the bedroom) but mostly I cry out of sight. Although last week I started crying at my doctors appointment. Oh yeah the tears they are flowing. Sucks.

I see now the prison I was in despite appearing perfectly normal on the outside. And now lucky me I get to muddle through all the feelings. My therapist says I'm doing great and that this is all normal but I hate it.

And again it took 3 years of therapy to get here and I truly had no idea how much pain I had buried.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MYM1430 said:


> Browncoat,
> 
> You say that you don't really like receiving gifts, but you want your wife to show love to you. What if your wife shows love by giving gifts? In your relationship, have you rejected or downplayed your wifes gifts? She may feel like she isn't allowed to love you because you don't want her gifts. If her love language has been rejected or been given no opportunity to show, she won't feel very loving towards you in other areas.


Interesting. I don't notice her being a giver of gifts so much as a giver of deeds.

I don't really know what to accept though service or gift wise.

I don't own much that's mine. My house, two cars, pets (well except for my aging 17 year old cat), etc... they are all for my family to enjoy and/or use. If it was just me living alone I'd have an extremely modest apartment.

The only things that I have that are really mine is my computer, some books (I guess I own a cheap $30 bookcase too), and some clothes. I share a dresser, a night stand, and a bed. Really that's it. I have nothing more that isn't meant for others, and I want nothing more. Just not materialistic in the slightest. Not based on principle... it's just how I am. I never had much as a kid (we were poor) and I always learned to appreciate being more than content with little.

I keep a few nick knacks from my youth... but not much. If I lost everything I own (not my family just things) in a fire... I wouldn't be concerned in the slightest. I'd just be sad for others in my family loosing their things.

I just don't need much from others or really feel comfortable getting much from others. I actually make a point to ask people not to get me things for Christmas or my birthday because I just don't want the extra stuff. I actually don't tell others my birthday because I don't even enjoy being told "happy birthday" and having people make a fuss. I don't care of it at all, I just put up with it and put on a happy face so that others feel happy giving me something... even though I don't want it at all.

So when I say that all I want is affection from my wife... I mean just that. Sure I love what she does for me and the family as a housewife: cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc... I thank her all the time for those things... and perhaps as I write that perhaps I shouldn't express my gratitude as much? Not sure there.

To answer your question though, I never reject a gift. But often times I just don't know what to do with extra stuff. Honestly to me extra stuff is just like a new dust catcher.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> There is no such thing as 'mild' childhood abuse. My scars run deep. In fact over the past few weeks I've been extremely emotional and crying a lot. I'm finally starting to feel the pain of what my parents did to me. I can't talk about it to my husband because I don't like crying in front him. Once recently I did let him in (I had locked myself in the bedroom) but mostly I cry out of sight. Although last week I started crying at my doctors appointment. Oh yeah the tears they are flowing. Sucks.
> 
> I see now the prison I was in despite appearing perfectly normal on the outside. And now lucky me I get to muddle through all the feelings. My therapist says I'm doing great and that this is all normal but I hate it.
> 
> And again it took 3 years of therapy to get here and I truly had no idea how much pain I had buried.


You are right. I was physically abused a lot as a kid, and part of that is still with me. I tend to put it away those memories in a sort of box and just go about my life. Every so often though that box gets opened by something in my life... a trigger of sorts and it comes back out and hurts all over again.  I'm not proud of it... but there it is.

I suppose I shouldn't expect my wife's ordeal to be any different. To be honest not sure why I have downplayed it... my best guess would be because she doesn't bring it up much at all.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

There seems to be a disconnect in your perception of what you need. You say you don't need much from others or *feel comfortable getting much from others.* Yet, in sexual matters you have expressed very strong and unmet needs. I think you may need to consider that your wife has known you to only give and never receive. She has expereinced the awkward rejection that comes from giving an unappreciated gift. Your discomfort with receiving has rubbed off and possibly infected her expressions of love to you. You may also need to consider that you have been suppressing your desires in other areas (a possible explination for the discomfort/guilt you experience in receiving).


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

MYM1430 said:


> There seems to be a disconnect in your perception of what you need. You say you don't need much from others or *feel comfortable getting much from others.* Yet, in sexual matters you have expressed very strong and unmet needs. I think you may need to consider that your wife has known you to only give and never receive. She has expereinced the awkward rejection that comes from giving an unappreciated gift. Your discomfort with receiving has rubbed off and possibly infected her expressions of love to you. You may also need to consider that you have been suppressing your desires in other areas (a possible explination for the discomfort/guilt you experience in receiving).


I once read an article about a man who had gone through mental and physical abuse as a child. He stayed away from "owning" anything, becuase growing up, those items were used by his abusive parents to hurt him by taking them away or destroying them. He also had difficulty believing he deserved to own things.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> I suppose I shouldn't expect my wife's ordeal to be any different. To be honest not sure why I have downplayed it... my best guess would be because she doesn't bring it up much at all.


I think this is a huge issue. I would even go so far as to say it is the primary reason for her attitude toward sex. I think IC for both of you, directed toward the abuse you each sufferred, is a must.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MYM1430 said:


> There seems to be a disconnect in your perception of what you need. You say you don't need much from others or *feel comfortable getting much from others.* Yet, in sexual matters you have expressed very strong and unmet needs. I think you may need to consider that your wife has known you to only give and never receive. She has expereinced the awkward rejection that comes from giving an unappreciated gift. Your discomfort with receiving has rubbed off and possibly infected her expressions of love to you. You may also need to consider that you have been suppressing your desires in other areas (a possible explination for the discomfort/guilt you experience in receiving).


I realize what you are saying, though I don't see a disconnect. (please point it out to me again... I might be totally blind to what you are trying to get across)

All I really enjoy getting from people is the joy of spending time with them.

With friends that means joking around and having fun doing anything. We can be at a party, at a ball game, doing work for some charity/church function... really doesn't matter to me. I just enjoy the time and the camaraderie (and most of all I enjoy having conversations about non-trivial things). I'm very easy going and very laid back... I just go with the flow.

With my wife, all I really want from is all the things I mentioned that I want from a friend (and she is a great friend), as well as sharing affection and sexual intimacy together.

I also appreciate and love that she meets my other basic needs: cooking for food, shopping for groceries and incidentals, and doing the laundry so we all have clean things to wear. I appreciate all those things and I am quick to thank her for those things... I really do appreciate them so much, simple as those things are.

My wife knows that's all I want. She's known that about me since very early on when we were dating (I'm a very simple guy).

She's never been one to try and give me things, or frankly others either. She's just not much of a gift giver outside of Christmas and birthdays/anniversaries.

I wish I could manufacture wants if that's what makes others more comfortable and happy. I realize others seem to want stuff... I just don't. In fact I go out of my way to get rid of stuff that I no longer need. I feel like unwanted things are a weight around my neck... ugh just clutter and junk. No thanks.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think this is a huge issue. I would even go so far as to say it is the primary reason for her attitude toward sex. I think IC for both of you, directed toward the abuse you each sufferred, is a must.


You are likely quite right. Fortunately we're already in IC with our ST. These matters are some of the things she's going over. I guess my wife and I should talk more about her abusive past ourselves. We tend to avoid that topic, even though we are open about everything. That is she won't shut down and not talk about it... it's just not discussed between us.

She did go through therapy a few years before we met on these matters... but at that time she was a virgin so they likely couldn't get to the bottom of everything.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

Browncoat,

Why do you feel uncomfortable when people give you things? 

What you wrote resonated with me. I feel uncomfortable when people give me things. I was bullied in school and it affected me profoundly. I have a poor opinion of myself. I don't desire gifts and am embarassed by any personal recognition or celebration. I don't have any prized posessions. I don't ask for anything, can't think of anything that I want when people ask me. I always am thinking about how to serve others and be helpful. I am very grateful for what I do have in my life and recognize that I do not need anything more. HOWEVER, I do not feel desired by my wife. She does not seem attracted to me. She does not refuse me but I don't sense any passion in her response to me. I am often tempted to just stifle those doubts and be grateful for what I have. Yet there is a part of me that is secretly angry and feels _deprived_. The more I push it down the more *depraved* it comes up the next time. I'm not sure you feel this way, but I could really identify with what you expressed.


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## MYM1430 (Nov 7, 2011)

Browncoat said:


> With my wife, all I really want from is all the things I mentioned that I want from a friend (and she is a great friend), as well as sharing affection and sexual intimacy together.
> 
> My wife knows that's all I want. She's known that about me since very early on when we were dating (I'm a very simple guy).


Is that all you want? You don't mention here that you want her to enjoy herself (you wrote this in a previous post). What other things are missing from this list that your wife may not know? I'm not sure you are as simple a guy as you think. I don't believe that anyone is simple. I think she is treating you very simply and very much in line with what you have revealed about yourself to her. I suspect there are hidden areas of your self you have not explored for yourself or allowed her into. 



Browncoat said:


> I feel like unwanted things are a weight around my neck... ugh just clutter and junk. No thanks.


You have very strong feelings about "things". If they were truly unimportant to you, I doubt you would feel so strongly.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

MYM1430 said:


> Is that all you want? You don't mention here that you want her to enjoy herself (you wrote this in a previous post). What other things are missing from this list that your wife may not know? I'm not sure you are as simple a guy as you think. I don't believe that anyone is simple. I think she is treating you very simply and very much in line with what you have revealed about yourself to her. I suspect there are hidden areas of your self you have not explored for yourself or allowed her into.


You are right, I want her to enjoy sex and intimacy... because I can't enjoy it w/o her enjoying it (if that makes any sense). Though I think that's true for most people (could be wrong though).

Her enjoying me also is a form a affirmation, that she actually loves me. Without that affirmation back I just feel undesirable, unwanted, and not cared for... I don't feel fulfilled and I don't feel like I'm a husband. Without all that I feel like I'm her friend: we can message each other's feet and joke (leaving me feeling unfulfilled sexually/intimately).

I have to admit that in some small measure it makes me doubt myself as well. Am I a bad lover? Should I be doing this or that better? I feel inadequate.

All this came up in therapy and we've discussed it at length at home as well. A big part of the problem though is that she just doesn't look forward to or enjoy sex much... aside from it pleasing her. She tries to offer it like a gift to me, but it feels hollow because her heart isn't in it. Again making me feel unfulfilled like I talked about before.



MYM1430 said:


> You have very strong feelings about "things". If they were truly unimportant to you, I doubt you would feel so strongly.


Well there are multiple reasons.

One is that getting more stuff is that it feels like a chore rather than the blessing it's intended to be. It's a chore because I have to be grateful and loving in response, when in my heart I see this as just another item I have to find a home for. If the person who gives me a gift is far away I often times find someone else to give the item to or return it for cash if I can. That too is a chore.

Don't get me wrong I appreciate that someone tried to do something nice for me... but in the end it's just creating a job for me and giving me something I almost always don't want and won't use (it's very very rare that I actually receive a gift and I actually really end up liking it).

If you do get rid of a gift later, because you don't want the clutter... that to sometimes creates drama. Why didn't you keep the gift? Don't you like the gift? Ugh... just don't want to go there.

One other reason is that I don't like feeling indebted to others. I do things for others because I like/love/care for them... and I don't expect a thing back in return. Some people though expect something back, if not right away at some later point in time. With many there's a sort of tit-for-tat expectation. If you fail in some way, even if you just plain forgot (which often times I do because I just don't want the items anyway) then suddenly there's all this drama... ugh all so pointless. I just feel very strongly that gifts should be given and that you never expect a thing in return. Frankly I resent that expectantly giving attitude, though that likely comes from my mother's side of the family where they got quite nasty if you didn't return an appropriately wonderful gift to theirs (even though you didn't know what they gave you until you two opened it at the same time on Christmas). That attitude is just ugly to me.

Yet another reason is that when you receive a gift you become the center of attention. I don't like being in the limelight. Yet somehow while being uncomfortably put in the limelight you have to put those feelings of discomfort away and show the giver real gratitude (they deserve as much).

Another reason is I don't like having worthless things that have no sentimental value to me around. If something has a function, I have no problem keeping it around and finding a good home for it (tools, equipment, etc.). It has to be something I need though, even if just sometimes. If something has sentimental value (e.g. something my kid made), then I'm again all to happy to find a home for it. Otherwise it's just an annoying nick knack that I want to get rid of, but can't always due to the reasons I gave before.

I don't like having so much stuff that I can't find things I need when I need them. I don't like the feeling that I'm drowning in junk. I like to keep things to a minimum and reasonably organized.

Lastly I often times don't feel worthy of getting gifts (that's where the guilt also comes in). I hold others I love in higher esteem than myself. The act of receiving a gift sort of upsets that balance for a moment, because in that instant another has put me in a place of honor which I feel is undeserved. I know this statement will draw all manner of attention, which is partly why I debated if I'd add it... but it's the whole truth so there it is.

To others this may seem like some big deal that I need to work through, but frankly I'm comfortable with that attitude. The world would be a better place in many ways if people in general valued others more than themselves. What a loving and kind place the world would be!


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

It sounds like you don't feel worthy of the attention and love of others, when it is expressed in gifts. I don't think consistently valuing others over yourself is at all a healthy way to live and it is leading you to disallow the people who love you to show that they do.

Have you considered the powerfully mixed messages you are sending your wife? On the one hand you are saying how little you need others to love you, how easy you are to please, how you only want to give. On the other hand you are being very very specific about how your wife can show love to you. From what I understand it is physical/sexual touch or nothing. And your wife is a child sexual abuse survivor so physical/sexual touch may be the one form of love expression that makes her uncomfortable. Maybe it makes her as uncomfortable as receiving gifts or public appreciation makes you.

It's interesting that it has taken until now for you to mention that your wife was sexually abused (sorry if I missed it earlier). It seems so obviously connected to the issues you are having. During her most vulnerable and formative years she learned that touch was not safe or loving. She has probably worked hard to separate her emotions from her physical self for so long that it now feels completely normal to her. That's why she is so disconnected during sex and why she doesn't think to offer physical touch during the day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback Lyris. Please keep in mind that in text sometimes a serious of questions can come across as antagonistic, which isn't my intent. So please don't think I'm trying to be aggressive with my questions (and I really hope they don't sound that way).



Lyris said:


> It sounds like you don't feel worthy of the attention and love of others, when it is expressed in gifts. I don't think consistently valuing others over yourself is at all a healthy way to live and it is leading you to disallow the people who love you to show that they do.


How so?

Is gifts really the main way people show love for others?

Is it wrong to ask that people show you love in the way that makes you feel loved?

I try and love my wife the way she wants to be loved, why is it wrong for me to ask that she do the same for me?



Lyris said:


> Have you considered the powerfully mixed messages you are sending your wife? On the one hand you are saying how little you need others to love you, how easy you are to please, how you only want to give. On the other hand you are being very very specific about how your wife can show love to you. From what I understand it is physical/sexual touch or nothing.


That's how I feel love. Is it wrong to feel loved primarily in one way?

Don't most people feel love primarily in one way more than other ways?



Lyris said:


> And your wife is a child sexual abuse survivor so physical/sexual touch may be the one form of love expression that makes her uncomfortable. Maybe it makes her as uncomfortable as receiving gifts or public appreciation makes you.


Good question!

In our case though it doesn't make her uncomfortable. She has told me many times just how much she loves be caressed and touched. It makes her feel so very good, and you can see it in her body language as well. She just melts like butter at my touch and relaxes.

This is one of the reasons we thought for the longest time that she had put the sexual abuse behind her.



Lyris said:


> It's interesting that it has taken until now for you to mention that your wife was sexually abused (sorry if I missed it earlier).


I did mention it before post #7 in this thread (first page). I don't talk about it a lot though you are right on that point. It's something I suspect we are going to have to deal with more in the days to come. It's just not a fun topic to touch on... but to make progress it seems more and more that we are going to have to go there. 



Lyris said:


> It seems so obviously connected to the issues you are having. During her most vulnerable and formative years she learned that touch was not safe or loving. She has probably worked hard to separate her emotions from her physical self for so long that it now feels completely normal to her. That's why she is so disconnected during sex and why she doesn't think to offer physical touch during the day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll have to talk to her about this tonight, thanks for bringing that talking point up.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Gifts can certainly be one of the main ways people show love. It's one of the five live languages after all. It's actually one of my husband's top two - physical touch and gifts. I always pick him up a little something when I go out to show him I'm thinking of him. Usually something little and edible. He's great at birthday and anniversary presents and refuses to do any kind of asking or hinting as he says the point is that I put the time into thinking of something and getting it for him with no input from him. Gifts are not high on my priority list, so it took me a few years to get into the swing of it and get it right. 

If course it's not wrong to want to be loved the way you feel most loved. Hopefully you and your wife can come to some compromise there. For me, my love languages are physical touch and words of affirmation. Physical touch is fine, it matches my husband, but he really doesn't value words of affirmation at all. I've come to accept that over the years and have trained myself to feel love from him when he puts a lot of effort into my birthday present, and when he keeps things organized and helps me with stuff. He tries with words, but it doesn't come naturally to him.

Maybe you can do something similar and try to feel love the way your wife offers it, while still working towards greater physical intimacy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

I've done the Love languages test before. My top 3 are Physical Touch (by a landslide 11/12) and neck and neck are Quality Time and Words of Affirmation (one point apart). Gifts for me got a big 0.

My wife scored highest on acts of service and quality time, which in a way I've known for years. It's why I make a point to help her around the house and try and do nice things for her when opportunity arises. We do spend a lot of time together, and we talk a lot about all sorts of things. I love those times and I know she does as well.

Still for me it's not enough. I wish it were otherwise given our situation, but for me sexual intimacy is a HUGE part of how I feel loved. Great sex can give me a sort of emotional high that lasts for days and days, sometimes weeks. It just makes every part of our home life that much brighter, and inspires me to do more for her. It makes me really ENJOY doing those extra chores here and there in the house.

The problem is good sex doesn't come often, even if we have sex frequently.  Bad sex, which unfortunately we have all too frequently, leaves me feeling empty and hollow... and if it happens too many times in a row doesn't help me at all.

This is why I asked her to stop coming to me for sex unless she's really in the mood. At least until next Friday. If she's not in the mood but she comes to me purely because she knows I want it badly... it often times just makes things worse. She's far too likely to become a rag doll and loose focus right and left, which just puts me in a worse mood and no one is happy.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think this is a huge issue. I would even go so far as to say it is the primary reason for her attitude toward sex. I think IC for both of you, directed toward the abuse you each sufferred, is a must.


:iagree:

I think this is the 'root' of everything. The things that happen to us in our childhoods we carry with us throughout our lives ... they shape and mold us into the individuals that we are as adults. If we don't address the negative things that happened to us, then they can continue to influence us and our relationships, most often in a negative way, throughout our lives.

I think that both you and your wife need to be willing to work through these potentially very painful issues as individuals first so that you can learn how to manage them and reconnect with each other in a more positive way. Otherwise, you are connecting with each other through a veil of long-held, possibly pain-created and negative behaviours. The veil must be lifted and new positive behaviours must be learned.

Best wishes.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Browncoat said:


> It's something I suspect we are going to have to deal with more in the days to come. It's just not a fun topic to touch on... but to make progress it seems more and more that we are going to have to go there.


If I had a dime for every time I told my therapist I "didn't want to go there" I'd be rich now. The one thing I wanted to avoid was the very thing I needed to face in order to be free.

And no it certainly wasn't a fun topic to touch on.


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