# Am I a sinner?



## Lovable Resin

Hello all. This is my first thread and I am more than a little nervous posting about this matter so please forgive me if my writing is all over the place.

I am married and me and my husband are devoted Christians. That makes this even more difficult for me to comprehend.

As it happens, I seem to have done something that I believe might be sinful and I am feeling dreadful about it at the moment. My husband has a sister whom I have known a long time and is very close to us both. After a long back story and due to certain circumstances it came to be that me and her shared what I would call an intimate moment together on a trip a couple of weeks ago. We were sleeping in our cottage while our husbands were out on a camping and hunting journey. We have not talked about the incident since.

I can't really stop thinking about this. What should I do? Do I ask God for help? Thanks.


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## lenzi

You shared an intimate moment with your husband's sister?

From what I understand homosexuality is a sin.

But the bigger issue is that you don't seem to care that you cheated on your husband, you're just worried about going to Hell.

Do you care about your husband?

When you love someone you put their needs ahead of yours. At least, that's how it's supposed to work.


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## over20

First of all repent to the Almighty. All sin is equal in God's sight, except the sin against the Holy Spirit. Once you have repented have peace. Do not let Satan continue to plague you with guilt.

Bring your sin out of the darkness and tell your DH. Satan works in the dark, Christ works in the light. Before you do tell your DH pray that the Almighty soften his heart to be able to forgive you. I am sure your DH will appreciate your honesty. We ALL sin and fall short. True character in a person can admit wrong doings and forgive the unforgivable.

An intimate moment could be a touch/kiss/cuddle or full intercourse. Nevertheless, you should apologize to your sister in law too. Let her know it will never happen again and keep your distance, if you feel you are tempted.

I have learned over the years that sometimes a female is easier to talk and relate to about the deep stuff we feel. Sometimes a husband just doesn't get it. Regardless, your DH needs to be the go to for ALL intimate conversations. That is how husband and wife bond emotionally and spiritually.

Remember you are forgiven through Christ's blood, and Christ chose to surround himself with "sinners".

Blessings and you are in my prayers....ray: A lot of good can come out of this dark valley that may bring you and DH a lot closer together and be able to help out another couple!!!

Use this time to poor yourself into Scripture. God will use this dark time in your life to "grow you up". Trust, trust, trust. God will never forsake you.


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## ConanHub

I am going to assume "intimate " means sex.
Having any sex outside of marriage is a sin.

Committing adultery is a sin.

You have sinned.

That's the bad news.

The good news is you can repent because of what Jesus did on the cross for you. 

You should first pray to God and ask for forgiveness (confess what you did), asking him for the strength to repent is good too.

You need to cut your affair partner out of the picture and you need to tell your husband and ask for his forgiveness as well.

If he wants to work through it you should get some marriage counseling, not necessarily from a pastor. I have seen some incredibly inept pastors destroy marriages in trouble.

Try to find one with experience with infidelity.

Your husband should deal directly with his brother in law. You need to keep your distance from the person you broke your vows with.


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## over20

ConanHub, you are right about the pastor issue. I would also advise as to not telling any Christian women in your church about it...i.e. asking for advice or prayers.....Some Christian woman can be very, very mean and judge mental........so sad in a church but very true.


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## jld

LR, I have a little different advice for you.

I think God loves all of us. I think God created people of all sexual persuasions. It sounds like you are bisexual. I think it would be a good idea to face up to that, and tell your husband.

You may want to find a more liberal Christian church.

You should not deny who you are. That will only lead to dysfunction. And you should not deny and hide from your husband. Be transparent.

I think God loves you no matter what.


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## PBear

jld said:


> LR, I have a little different advice for you.
> 
> I think God loves all of us. I think God created people of all sexual persuasions. It sounds like you are bisexual. I think it would be a good idea to face up to that, and tell your husband.
> 
> You may want to find a more liberal Christian church.
> 
> You should not deny who you are. That will only lead to dysfunction. And you should not deny and hide from your husband. Be transparent.
> 
> I think God loves you no matter what.


It's one thing to be bi-sexual and monogamous. It's another thing to be bi-sexual and cheat on your spouse... I'm not even religious, and I understand the difference.

C


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## ConanHub

:iagree:


PBear said:


> It's one thing to be bi-sexual and monogamous. It's another thing to be bi-sexual and cheat on your spouse... I'm not even religious, and I understand the difference.
> 
> C


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## over20

"So God created man is his own image, in the image of God he created him; MALE and FEMALE He created them. God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it." Genesis 1:27-28a.

God did NOT create people of all sexual persuasions. He created a male and female to fit perfectly anatomically,emotionally and spiritually.

It does NOT ever matter what we all THINK about God but what He SAYS in HIS HOLY BIBLE. Society has a way of twisting the Bible to fit one's lifestyle. Which is heresy.

Finding a more Liberal Christian Church is actually falling more and more away from the Truth found in Scripture.

God does love us no matter what, he gave us His only Son to redeem us and bring us home to Heaven.


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## jld

I'm sorry about that. Yes, I totally agree about marriage being monogamous. And I think it is really important to be transparent with your spouse. He may want a divorce. Accept it if he does. And try to accept yourself.

Sorry to not have been clear, everyone. I am tired, and it was just an oversight. Please forgive.


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## joe kidd

We are all sinners.


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## 2ntnuf

I don't believe it. I don't know how a person can be a, "devoted Christian", and not know what a sin is. Sorry, I think it's bunk.


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## Adeline

hmmmmm... well why do you only think it "might" be sinful? I'm starting to wonder where what you did actually falls on the spectrum of intimate. Was there kissing, or something more? Or were you just cuddling and holding each other? I'm trying to figure out where the confusion on your part lies. If you kissed this woman or anything more than that wouldn't that be just as much of "sin" then if you had done so with a man? Since that would be cheating on your husband?


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## Lovable Resin

Adultery and affair... Oh my. I did not really think about it like that.  I do not know where to begin. First I want to thank all the people who replied.

When I married my husband I was very young and a virgin and he is the only person I have ever been intimate with. Please bear with me I am not very well versed with these things and everything I have ever learned about being intimate I have learned from my husband. I have never even kissed another person.

I guess I should tell what actually happened even though it is very hard because I am so embarassed about it. I am really not exactly sure what to call it that took place. When we were sleeping in the cottage I woke up in the night and me and her (the husband's sister) were all tangled up and arms around each other. This is one of those things you just can't explain but she was awake too and was just looking at me. After awhile she started to move herself against me and it bagan to feel nice and I guess we got caught in the moment. We did not kiss or anything like that. I'm not sure exactly how long it lasted but after and during it evoked such feelings in me that should only be happening when intimate with my husband. 

I don't know what it is I am actually asking... I feel very confused about this. She is my best friend and we haven't spoken about it at all and it's starting feel really awkward as usually we can talk about anything. Me and her both are housewives and we take care of our homes and children while our husbands are at work so we spend a lot time together. I could say I spend more time with her than my husband since he is working long hours. 

I feel if I tell my husband he sees it like some of you here and do not want anything to do with me anymore. I guess I eventually have to tell him even if he might show me the door. My husband is not very good at talking about emotional matters and this could be something I fear he cannot forgive. I need to pray forgiveness.

Thanks.


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## Adeline

alright, well, again I just want to be make sure I am completely clear about what you mean about "feeling nice"... so are you saying that you two rubbed against each other for the purpose of orgasming? Or that you were just cuddling and caressing non-sexually (but possibly sensually)? Either could feel intimate or nice... anyways, if it is indeed the former then is it possible that she was doing this in her sleep? Like sleep walking, except sleep... humping? ha i don't really know. Maybe that's why she doesn't talk about it because she truly doesn't remember. If it was just cuddling then don't sweat it. If it really was more like stimulation to orgasm then it's time to explore what made you reciprocate it when she started to engage in this.


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## HuggyBear

First, we're ALL sinners... but the whole idea behind Jesus is forgiveness, but we have to look at what Jesus considered violations. 
Sure adultery is one of them, but adultery, biblically speaking, is something committed between men and men, or men and women.

But in all reality, does your church allow divorce and remarriage? If so, then your church allows for adultery and fornication, pretty much exactly what Jesus was against. You can't pick and choose your scripture.

It's really up to you to decide if it was really "immoral". 

Keep in mind, using credit cards to buy gifts for Christmas is far more of a flagrant, Jesus-insulting sin than your small transgression, if it was.

Either way, in the end, remember that Jesus died for your sins through his own example in life. While he lived, he was warning the living Jews about the consequences of sin... he was preaching ONLY to Jews, not the world... there are plenty of reasons in the bible (that I'm not going into) about why He would not have approved of Paul's evangelizing.

So, don't go wasting a perfectly good Jesus, as you're forgiven, anyways, just try not to do it again, or else you'll have TWO "forgivens" to your soul.


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## jld

Come on, Adeline. Would you go rubbing up against some other woman and think it's normal heterosexual behavior? Would you "cuddle" with another woman? I certainly wouldn't. When I hug a friend, it is a hug, plain and simple. I don't get "feelings" from it, other than the "feeling" of a kind friendship.

And I have been a SAHM for 19 years and have spent plenty of time with other housewives, and have never had either this experience or any kind of feelings associated with it.

LR, you must be having a bisexual awakening of some kind. There are people on these boards who have studied human sexuality extensively, and can surely help. 

The first thing, though, is to accept those feelings. You have them for a reason. Now, that said, you do not have to act on them. There are bisexual women on this board who have said that they are monogamous with their husbands. Basically, they made a choice. You can, too . . . depending on what your husband says about what happened.

You must be transparent with him. You just go up to him as soon as you can and blurt everything out. Just make him hear it. You tell him the whole thing, including what you felt. You let him decide how he feels about it. If he wants a divorce, you allow it. 

Put yourself in his shoes; if he had this experience with another man, what would you want to do?

If it were me, man, I would be filing. Dh and I could remain friends, really good friends, but if he had "feelings" for another man, and wanted to rub up against him, and it were "nice," then hey, he's not the man who is going to be in my bed. 

Obviously, this is just me. Not saying for other people.

Now, he may say that he is williing to keep the marriage if you will yourself not to do it again. Can you accept that? First thing, you would have to go no contact with the sil. Can you do that?

And her husband needs to be told, too. Full disclosure. These guys have to know their wives' sexual identities.

Also, none of this should involve shame. You are what you are. Accept it. I'm sorry it did not come up sooner, as you are going to be disrupting some lives if it comes to divorce. But you always have to face reality if you want to be happy in life, and have a peaceful conscience.

Lastly, just know that God loves you, no matter what. God knows all of us. He knows all of our sins, and we all have them.

I love my dh very much, LR, but sometimes I am attracted to other men. I feel ashamed of that, because I think dh deserves all of my mind, heart, body, and soul. And the first thing I do when I feel attracted to another man is to tell my dh. I mean, I have practically run to the phone to tell him before, as it just seems so wrong to me to be disloyal that way. Seems to take the power out of it. 

And it helps that he is never mad. He usually just smiles and tells me I am a silly girl with a big imagination. That helps, too. It tells me he believes in me, and knows I will do the right thing (not pursue the attraction).

Good luck, LR. Have courage. You are not a bad person. My sister is a lesbian. The only bad thing is to lie to yourself and deceive your husband. 

Transparency, LR. Transparency.


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## married tech

Well you are alive so the odds are by someones standards just being that is likely a sin. 

Religious deities are well known for being all forgiving when asked. People on the other hand not so much so chose well on which ones standards and forgiveness you seek.


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## Adeline

jld- I know I know, but I really am just trying to make sure I understand what she is conveying... some people are insanely conservative and might find some things to be awful when in fact most people would find them benign, I know some women that because of religious beliefs believe it is wrong to go see the gynecologist because no one but their husband should look/feel down there! So since the OP is being vague... who knows what she is describing. And to answer your question, I guess I am pretty affectionate with my friends... I've never rubbed up against them or anything but can remember many a time where we'd go on road trips and stay in hotels together and have to share beds and we'd wake up cuddled against the other and think it was funny/cute, or being passengers in a car and cuddling up to take a nap. Happened a lot in my younger years. Never felt it was anything other than innocent and plutonic, but I suppose some could see that as too intimate.


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## jld

I'm sorry if I seemed like I was picking on you, Adeline. I am just trying to get the OP to be as honest as possible with herself.

I have six sisters and many nieces. I understand everybody slammed together on the couch to watch a movie, and stuff like that. But I don't think that is what this gal is describing. Just my opinion, I guess.

And again, didn't mean to pick on you. I've been picked on enough on these boards that I don't want to do it to anyone else inadvertently, lol.


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## Adeline

jlp- no worries! I wasn't offended, I promise  We all have different perspectives that can be valuable to each OP. I guess I was trying to play devil's advocate here and think well maybe there is a small chance the OP is making a mountain out of a molehill and it isn't as it seems.


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## Lovable Resin

Thank you all for the replies. I am sorry if my posts came off as being vague which was not my intention at all. I am so sorry about that. This is just so hard for me to process through and if you add to that my inexperience with these things. Forgive me if I upset anyone.

I guess the description of us rubbing against each other is the most accurate and the end result being an orgasm. From her trembling breathing and voices she made I guess she experienced similar feelings as me. I am ashamed to admit that while the feeling was similar I most likely have not ever had an orgasm while being intimate with my husband. At least not that I remember. 

All this talk about gays and bi-sexuals and normal behavior is so confusing. I was told that gays go to hell as a child unless they go to therapy to get cured. I am afraid to tell about this to anyone least my husband as he will surely leave me if he thinks I am not normal.


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## jld

Get out of that religion, LR. It is messing up your head.

You will get half of whatever you two have if there is a divorce. Don't let him talk you out of it.

You have got to accept yourself. Again, get out of that religion. There is a spectrum of sexuality, and wherever you are on it is fine.

And keep coming back here. We can help you.


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## jld

Okay, maybe don't talk to your husband just yet. But *do not think something is wrong with you*. You are fine, and that religion is the problem. 

Do you have anyone in real life not in that religion who can be supportive and honest with you? A secular counselor, for example?


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## PBear

Lovable Resin said:


> Thank you all for the replies. I am sorry if my posts came off as being vague which was not my intention at all. I am so sorry about that. This is just so hard for me to process through and if you add to that my inexperience with these things. Forgive me if I upset anyone.
> 
> I guess the description of us rubbing against each other is the most accurate and the end result being an orgasm. From her trembling breathing and voices she made I guess she experienced similar feelings as me. I am ashamed to admit that while the feeling was similar I most likely have not ever had an orgasm while being intimate with my husband. At least not that I remember.
> 
> All this talk about gays and bi-sexuals and normal behavior is so confusing. I was told that gays go to hell as a child unless they go to therapy to get cured. I am afraid to tell about this to anyone least my husband as he will surely leave me if he thinks I am not normal.


Back the sex train up, princess! You've never had an orgasm with your husband? How long have you been married?

C


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## ConanHub

jld said:


> Okay, maybe don't talk to your husband just yet. But *do not think something is wrong with you*. You are fine, and that religion is the problem.
> 
> Do you have anyone in real life not in that religion who can be supportive and honest with you? A secular counselor, for example?


You have a different take on this than me. I will stand by my original post, but are you seriously advocating OP keep her "indiscretion " from her husband? 

Are you encouraging her to break her family up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

I am going to pm you, Conan. He does need to know, but we want to do this safely, right?

The part about being fine is her sexuality. Some people are bisexual. They cannot change what they are. They can choose how they deal with it, how they live it out or not, but not how they are.


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## Maricha75

No, jld, I'd like to know your train of thought as well. Because, honestly, you DID make it seem like you are advocating her keeping this from her husband. She has cheated, as she clarified, which IS a sin (the original question). Yes, she may very well be attracted to both men and women, but she made a choice, regardless, when she married her husband. However, the one thing I am going to say is that you and I definitely believe differently about the subject of homosexuality. I don't think of it as a disease that can be "cured", so that much I agree with.


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## ConanHub

jld said:


> I am going to pm you, Conan. He does need to know, but we want to do this safely, right?
> 
> The part about being fine is her sexuality. Some people are bisexual. They cannot change what they are. They can choose how they deal with it, how they live it out or not, but not how they are.


I pmd you back. I will agree about being able to be sexually stimulated by the same sex.

I have a lot of experience and study in human relations and sexuality and how our desires occur. 

I agree that being stimulated by her friend does not make her abnormal.
Gotta go for the day.

Please explore the issues in my pm.
Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Lovable Resin said:


> My husband has a sister whom I have known a long time and is very close to us both. *After a long back story* and due to certain circumstances it came to be that me and her shared what I would call an intimate moment


I am curious. Have you guys been involved before? I ask because you said "a long back story" which makes me think there is more to this story. Is there more? Do you have a romantic or flirty history with her?



Lovable Resin said:


> When we were sleeping in the cottage I woke up in the night and me and her (the husband's sister) were all tangled up and arms around each other. This is one of those things you just can't explain but she was awake too and was just looking at me. After awhile she started to move herself against me and it bagan to feel nice and I guess we got caught in the moment. We did not kiss or anything like that.


Idk if you are being purposely evasive or vague but you aren't coming right out and saying what happened and it's confusing. You are eluding to the fac that you "don't know" what you did or what happened and that is hard to believe. How did you end up "tangled in arms?" Did you make out? Did she go down on you and vice versa?

Look, the bottom line is that you cheated on your husband with his sister. 

Religious or not, cheating is considered very bad to do to your partner.

How do you plan to handle things from here on out? Do you think you are gay? Or bi-sexual?


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## jld

Lovable Resin said:


> Thank you all for the replies. I am sorry if my posts came off as being vague which was not my intention at all. I am so sorry about that. This is just so hard for me to process through and if you add to that my inexperience with these things. Forgive me if I upset anyone.
> 
> I guess the description of us rubbing against each other is the most accurate and the end result being an orgasm. From her trembling breathing and voices she made I guess she experienced similar feelings as me. I am ashamed to admit that while the feeling was similar I most likely have not ever had an orgasm while being intimate with my husband. At least not that I remember.
> 
> All this talk about gays and bi-sexuals and normal behavior is so confusing. I was told that gays go to hell as a child unless they go to therapy to get cured. I am afraid to tell about this to anyone least my husband as he will surely leave me if he thinks I am not normal.


Your husband does eventually have to know, LR. But my first concern is for your safety.

Does your husband have any history of violent behavior? Do you think he may become violent when you tell him?

I just do not want your safety compromised. We would all feel terrible if you got beat up, or kicked out in the cold in the middle of winter.

And your sil is involved here, too. We do not want any of those things to happen to her, either.

I think it would be wise for you to get real life secular counsel before anything is revealed. Professionals, maybe even a social worker at a women's shelter, know more about this than I do.

We can talk very authoritatively here, but not one of us is in your shoes. You need to decide what your safety risk is, and keep it in mind as you prepare to face what has been revealed to you.


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## Anon Pink

Lovable Resin said:


> Thank you all for the replies. I am sorry if my posts came off as being vague which was not my intention at all. I am so sorry about that. This is just so hard for me to process through and if you add to that my inexperience with these things. Forgive me if I upset anyone.
> 
> I guess the description of us rubbing against each other is the most accurate and the end result being an orgasm. From her trembling breathing and voices she made I guess she experienced similar feelings as me. I am ashamed to admit that while the feeling was similar I most likely have not ever had an orgasm while being intimate with my husband. At least not that I remember.
> 
> All this talk about gays and bi-sexuals and normal behavior is so confusing. I was told that gays go to hell as a child unless they go to therapy to get cured. I am afraid to tell about this to anyone least my husband as he will surely leave me if he thinks I am not normal.


I think the back story, as JellyBeans points out, is going to be helpful to understand better.

I'm not a fundamentalist Christian. I do understand human sexuality though. Homosexuality and bisexuality are NOT sins! Let's clear that up right now! One cannot be "cured" from their sexual orientation anymore than a right handed person can be "cured" to write with their left hand! 

If you look at the scale of human sexuality below, most people fall into the 1-5 range. That's MOST people! Which means MOST people do have, under certain circumstances, some sexual attraction to the same sex.




> The Kinsey scale ranges from 0, for those who would identify themselves as exclusively heterosexual with no experience with or desire for sexual activity with their same sex, to 6, for those who would identify themselves as exclusively homosexual with no experience with or desire for sexual activity with those of the opposite sex, and 1-5 for those who would identify themselves with varying levels of desire for sexual activity with either sex, including "incidental" or "occasional" desire for sexual activity with the same sex.[6]
> 
> Rating	Description
> 0	Exclusively heterosexual
> *1	Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
> 2	Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
> 3	Equally heterosexual and homosexual
> 4	Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
> 5	Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual*
> 6	Exclusively homosexual
> X	No socio-sexual contacts or reactions


From what you briefly explained, it sounds as though you have a close personal and emotional connection with your SIL. You two did not plan the sexual encounter, at least not overtly, but the circumstances of being in bed together in the middle of the night led to a lesbian experience.

Unfortunately, you are a married woman and as such, all sexual experiences with person other than your husband would be considered infidelity. 

You have some soul searching to do. Because you started of completely ignorant of your sexuality, you're not really sure if predominant heterosexuality is your actual orientation. Considering you've never enjoyed sex with your husband and haven't orgasmed with him, but did so easily with your SIL...that needs some thinking and processing.

Doubly unfortunate, you are surrounded by fundamentalists who will not encourage you to openly and honestly gain an understanding of your sexual orientation. You, my girl, are stuck between a rock and a hard place. You have people like over20 who takes about satan tempting you then you have people like me, who do not believe in a satan and has to hold in a derisive laugh when that name is called upon to explain behavioral things that are uncomfortable.

So, are your strong enough to seek a faith that will allow you to gain an understanding of your sexuality? Are you strong enough to tell your husband you had a sexual encounter with another woman and you had your first partnered orgasm? 

Your original question wanted to know if you had sinned. My answer is no, you haven't sinned. The sin was not allowing a child to grow up in an atmosphere in which human sexuality was discussed, explored and understood.


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## Anon Pink

I forgot to add this.

I agree with JLD. Don't tell your husband, JUST YET. I think you must tell him and you must also not have any more encounters with your SIL.

The reason why I don't think you should tell your husband is because I don't think he will be able to support you gaining a clear acceptance and understanding of your sexuality. I think you need to have that answer yourself before you tell him.

You CAN have a sexual attraction to another person and remain faithful to your husband. You CAN be bisexual yet remain faithful to your husband...but you will need to understand a part of you may yearn for, long for and grow very discontented by cutting off that part of yourself.

Your husband may come to be okay with you having sexual encounters with another woman. Some men are okay with that. This forum is filled with people still hurting from betrayal so you're not likely to hear from anyone who advocates this kind of selective open arrangement. But it can be done.

The point is, you have to discover what it is that you want first! Do you want your marriage in tact? Do you want to explore and experience your sexuality more openly? What do YOU want?


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## jld

Thank you so much, AP, for stepping in here.

LR, you can trust AP. She knows a lot about human sexuality. Please reread her last sentence carefully.

You are not going to hell, LR. And we do not want your present life to become one, either. That is why I think a real life, secular source of wise counsel would be helpful to you before you or your sil say anything.


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## Jellybeans

Anon Pink said:


> I think the back story, as JellyBeans points out, is going to be helpful to understand better.


:iagree:



Anon Pink said:


> The reason why I don't think you should tell your husband is because I don't think he will be able to support you gaining a clear acceptance and understanding of your sexuality.
> 
> Your husband may come to be okay with you having sexual encounters with another woman. Some men are okay with that. This forum is filled with people still hurting from betrayal so you're not likely to hear from anyone who advocates this kind of selective open arrangement. But it can be done.


And I just want to add that your husband may not be ok with it at all. It could very well be that he does not want to be in a marriage with you. Which you would also have to accept. It could go either way. Just saying.

It would be very helpful to know the backstory.

How did you end up in bed with her? Where were your husbands?

If your husband slept with your brother, how would you feel? I am just trying to put two sides to this. Would you want to know? 

It sucks, either way.


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## jld

You might want to read the whole thread, JB, just in case you have not. Some of that is covered. Just fyi.


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## Jellybeans

I read all of her posts jld. That's why I asked her what I did cause she seems confused about what she did/what actually happened. Thanks.


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## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> I'm not a fundamentalist Christian. I do understand human sexuality though. *Homosexuality and bisexuality are NOT sins! Let's clear that up right now!* One cannot be "cured" from their sexual orientation anymore than a right handed person can be "cured" to write with their left hand!



Actually, if one is a Bible believing Christian, then yes, those absolutely ARE sins...or rather ACTING on them is a sin. Just as, again, a Bible believing Christian sees premarital sex as a sin, as well as infidelity being a sin. 

LR, here's the thing. You asked if you are a sinner. First thing that popped into my head, before even OPENING this thread was "Yes, you are a sinner. We are ALL sinners, even me." Now, I am certain you consider yourself a Christian, so that's why I am wondering WHY you even asked if you were a sinner... having done this with someone other than your husband. I'm sorry, but you knew the answer before you even asked it. 

You very well may find a church, as others have suggested, which is more accepting of homosexual or bisexual behavior. If that is what you choose, that's up to you. Before you do decide to switch, though, you need to be clear on what you believe. I'm not talking about what others have TOLD you to believe, I mean searching the Scriptures yourself... see what the Bible says, not taking MY word for it, nor AP's, nor anyone else. Look at it on your own. And, if you choose to follow another path, that is your choice. But, the bottom line here is that YES, what you have done is a sin.


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## jld

Jellybeans said:


> I read all of her posts jld. That's why I asked her what I did cause she seems confused about what she did/what actually happened. Thanks.


Okay, sorry about that.


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## Anon Pink

Maricha75 said:


> Actually, if one is a Bible believing Christian, then yes, those absolutely ARE sins...or rather ACTING on them is a sin. Just as, again, a Bible believing Christian sees premarital sex as a sin, as well as infidelity being a sin.
> 
> LR, here's the thing. You asked if you are a sinner. First thing that popped into my head, before even OPENING this thread was "Yes, you are a sinner. We are ALL sinners, even me." Now, I am certain you consider yourself a Christian, so that's why I am wondering WHY you even asked if you were a sinner... having done this with someone other than your husband. I'm sorry, but you knew the answer before you even asked it.
> 
> You very well may find a church, as others have suggested, which is more accepting of homosexual or bisexual behavior. If that is what you choose, that's up to you. Before you do decide to switch, though, you need to be clear on what you believe. I'm not talking about what others have TOLD you to believe, I mean searching the Scriptures yourself... see what the Bible says, not taking MY word for it, nor AP's, nor anyone else. Look at it on your own. And, if you choose to follow another path, that is your choice. But, the bottom line here is that YES, what you have done is a sin.


Let's not devolve this thread. One can be a bible believing fundamentalist Christian AND also conclude that homosexuality is not a sin, nor is having homosexual sex a sin. YOUR church may not ascribe to that but there are churches that do.


----------



## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> Let's not devolve this thread. One can be a bible believing fundamentalist Christian AND also conclude that homosexuality is not a sin, nor is having homosexual sex a sin. YOUR church may not ascribe to that but there are churches that do.


If you believe what the Bible says about it, then no, you cannot conclude that it is not a sin. Does that mean that we are to go out and, militantly, say "you're going to hell because of this"? Of course not. But, we all have our own choices to make, regarding each of our sins.

She asked if she is a sinner... if what she has done is a sin. Yes, and yes. Now, she needs to decide how she is going to move forward from it.


----------



## PBear

I'm confused. Are some of you saying that this isn't a "sin" because she's potentially bi-sexual? But if she humped the leg of her BIL till they both orgasmed, THEN it would be a sin?

To me, she had "sex" with someone other than her husband. That's all that needs to be considered to answer the original question. The fact that it was homosexual (which some religions take as a sin) or with a relative are merely compounding the original sin. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mablenc

I think the lesbian bisexual issues don't matter. She got sexual gratification outside her marriage. That's cheating, no orgasms with her spouse, or the gender of who she cheated with are not excuses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MissFroggie

mablenc said:


> I think the lesbian bisexual issues don't matter. She got sexual gratification outside her marriage. That's cheating, no orgasms with her spouse, or the gender of who she cheated with are not excuses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## Machiavelli

Lovable Resin said:


> I am married and me and my husband are devoted Christians. That makes this even more difficult for me to comprehend.


Since that is the case, I will answer your post in accordance with the scriptures. Note, I said with reference to the scriptures, not church tradition.



Lovable Resin said:


> As it happens, I seem to have done something that I believe might be sinful and I am feeling dreadful about it at the moment. My husband has a sister whom I have known a long time and is very close to us both. ...
> 
> I can't really stop thinking about this. What should I do? Do I ask God for help?
> 
> When we were sleeping in the cottage I woke up in the night and me and her (the husband's sister) were all tangled up and arms around each other. This is one of those things you just can't explain but she was awake too and was just looking at me. After awhile she started to move herself against me and it bagan to feel nice and I guess we got caught in the moment. We did not kiss or anything like that. I'm not sure exactly how long it lasted but after and during it evoked such feelings in me that should only be happening when intimate with my husband....I guess the description of us rubbing against each other is the most accurate and the end result being an orgasm. From her trembling breathing and voices she made I guess she experienced similar feelings as me. I am ashamed to admit that while the feeling was similar I most likely have not ever had an orgasm while being intimate with my husband. At least not that I remember.
> 
> All this talk about gays and bi-sexuals and normal behavior is so confusing. I was told that gays go to hell as a child unless they go to therapy to get cured. I am afraid to tell about this to anyone least my husband as he will surely leave me if he thinks I am not normal.


Okay then. 

#1 What you did, or I should say what your SIL did, is not forbidden by the scriptures. In fact, it's not even mentioned in the list of sexual sins in the Bible (Torah-Five Books of Moses - AKA "THE LAW"). However, homosexual sex between men is condemned in the Torah. Yes, the Bible has a double standard.

So the actual act in and of itself is not called out as sin in the Bible's sin list. In the last 150 years or so, people have tried to claim that Romans 1:26 condemns female/female action when it says: _"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature." _Since nothing in the Bible anywhere else says two girls is a sin and the context of the passage is a discussion of pagan gods and myths, in which bestiality plays a big part, bestiality is most likely what Paul is referencing. Bestiality, for both man and woman, is in fact a sin according to Leviticus. So, that's the only passage one can point to, even erroneously, as being a denunciation of girl/girl sexual activity. Previously, that same passage was used as a denunciation of anal sex. In context of a discussion of pagan gods and their propensity for bestiality with human females, it fits nicely with the Old Testament list of sexual sins.

The people who wish to use Romans 1:26 as an anti-lesbian sex verse support this modern interpretation with Romans 1:27 _and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error._ Now that is clearly male homosexuality, but male homosexuality is already on the sin list in Leviticus. Remember, the Biblical standard for behavior is not the same for men and women.


#2 Biblically, and legally, what you did is not adultery. Exodus defines adultery as a man copulating with another man's wife, and many legal jurisdictions still do. There is no way for your SIL to adulterate your husband's seed and produce bastards, so adultery it is not. No man, no seed, no adultery.

So, there is no sexual sin committed, according to the actual biblical definitions of sexual sin.

Now, as for the rest of it, if you know your husband is going to object to this, don't do it again. There is no need to confess to it and there is no need to worry about it. It happened, you didn't plan it. No sin was committed. You don't even need to bring up the subject again with your SIL. 

However, if you're going to keep this up, you need to get your husband's permission, since you as a Christian woman, are under his headship. I Peter 3: 5,6 _"For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord."_


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## clipclop2

Cheating with your husband's family member about as sinful as it gets.

I don't care what sex you want to sleep with. You cheated.

Confess.

Repent.

Your SIL has a lot to answer for as well. Her husband also needs to know.


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## Machiavelli

clipclop2 said:


> *Cheating with your husband's family member about as sinful as it gets.*
> 
> I don't care what sex you want to sleep with. You cheated.
> 
> Confess.
> 
> Repent.
> 
> Your SIL has a lot to answer for as well. Her husband also needs to know.


Can you back that up with anything? Like, a Bible verse maybe?


----------



## MissFroggie

Machiavelli said:


> clipclop2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cheating with your husband's family member about as sinful as it gets.
> 
> I don't care what sex you want to sleep with. You cheated.
> 
> Confess.
> 
> Repent.
> 
> Your SIL has a lot to answer for as well. Her husband also needs to know.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you back that up with anything? Like, a Bible verse maybe?
Click to expand...

Why does it need to be backed up with a Bible verse?


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## clipclop2

I can't believe you Machiavelli.

She cheated.


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## PBear

clipclop2 said:


> I can't believe you Machiavelli.
> 
> She cheated.


Her question wasn't if she cheated. She asked if she sinned. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clipclop2

Whatever. 

I dont get your game but I am not playing.


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## Machiavelli

PBear said:


> Her question wasn't if she cheated. She asked if she sinned.


Exactly. What's cheating? Anything you want it to be. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "Thou shalt not cheat."


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## clipclop2

I don't even know what to say to you. Inane discussions must be important to you. Enjoy.


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## Jellybeans

Anytime religion or scriptures get involved it is going to be different for how people INTERPRET those things,.

But I think every single person can say that she CHEATED on her husband.

Generally, the world over, cheating on a spouse is considered wrong.


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## Anon Pink

Mach is right. Lesbian sex is not defined as a sin anywhere in the bible. I saw a PBS program years ago about several orthodox Jewish couples living in Isreal in which the wife was a lesbian. She had a lesbian lover and would go to stay with her lover several times a month. The husband was encouraged to allow her to stay with her lesbian lover as often as he deemed she needed to. 

The OP asked if she had sinned. The answer is NO.



Maricha75 said:


> If you believe what the Bible says about it, then no, you cannot conclude that it is not a sin.


----------



## arbitrator

*Basically, we were all born sinners into this world primarily because of the ultimate downfall of mankind.

But Christ's death for us upon that cross at Calvary redeemed us all, greatly contingent that we have accepted Christ as our personal Saviour.

That being said, you should pray for forgiveness, and confess most apologetically to only your husband, telling him all of the details of what actually occurred and why. And you need to ask for his foregiveness as well. 

And it needs to come primarily from you, because if such news came from somebody else to him, it might crush your husband considerably.
And after your husband forgives you, use it as a learning experience and move on!*


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## mablenc

The bible is very specific about adultery being a sin. OP, you know it was wrong. If it was your husband doing the same thing you would not be very happy about it. The bible does not have to be specific about your situation. As in was it humping? Was it the same gender? Were you sexually pleased with your spouse? It's clear about adultery being a sin. I would assume that you also made vows to your husband in a church. Those vows are promises to your husband and to God. 

You also have a conscious, which I am sure is what made you post your questions. Listen to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator

*Marital vows and fidelity are largely based on these books of the Bible:

Genesis 2:22-24
Proverbs 5:18-19
Proverbs 12:4
Proverbs 18:22
Proverbs 19:14
Proverbs 20:6-7
Proverbs 30:18-19
Proverbs 31:10
Deuteronomy 24:5
Matthew 19:4-6
I Corinthians 7:1-16
Colossians 3:18-19
Hebrews 13:4-7
Mark 10:6-9
Ephesians 5:22-23*


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## Machiavelli

clipclop2 said:


> I don't even know what to say to you. Inane discussions must be important to you. Enjoy.


It's not inane to the OP. She asked if she committed a sin in the context of Christianity, I replied and provided Christian scripture to buttress my viewpoint. So, it really depends on her viewpoint, tradition or sola scripture or some combination of the two. But what I provided her with is 100% of the scriptural statements.


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## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> Mach is right. Lesbian sex is not defined as a sin anywhere in the bible.
> ...
> 
> The OP asked if she had sinned. The answer is NO.


He pointed out Romans 1:26 as talking about women with women. Unfortunately, he went on to say that those who use that particular verse use verse 27 to "hammer it home" so to speak. Maybe some do, but not all. Verse 27 speaks specifically about male homosexuals. That is very evident. But, taking the entire passage in context, from verse 18 through verse 32, it lists more than JUST sexual immorality. It talks about a variety of sins, including homosexual acts of both men and women..... AND even includes those who approve of those who practice each of the things mentioned in the passage. So, again, YES, she has sinned against her husband. Whether you want to accept that as truth or not, it is a sin.


----------



## Machiavelli

Anon Pink said:


> Mach is right. Lesbian sex is not defined as a sin anywhere in the bible. I saw a PBS program years ago about several orthodox Jewish couples living in Isreal in which the wife was a lesbian. She had a lesbian lover and would go to stay with her lover several times a month. The husband was encouraged to allow her to stay with her lesbian lover as often as he deemed she needed to.
> 
> The OP asked if she had sinned. The answer is NO.


What everyone forgets is that ancient Israel, right up to the time of the Bar Kochba Rebellion was a polygynist society (two or more women married to one man) where all the little boys and girls were married and consummated at about 12 or 13 years of age. Jews in the diaspora remained polygynists until about 1000 AD or so when Miamonides decreed monogamy for his followers, but that didn't apply to everyone and it has since expired. Around the same time, some rabbis also started teaching that men should stop allowing their wives to visit over at their girlfriends houses for girl/girl. While that was not adultery, I'm sure the were rabbis were probably worried about the husband popping in for a little threesome action, human nature being what it is. Remember, the rabbis figured a person's lineage by the mother, since you never really were going to be for sure about who the father was.


----------



## ConanHub

Maricha75 said:


> He pointed out Romans 1:26 as talking about women with women. Unfortunately, he went on to say that those who use that particular verse use verse 27 to "hammer it home" so to speak. Maybe some do, but not all. Verse 27 speaks specifically about male homosexuals. That is very evident. But, taking the entire passage in context, from verse 18 through verse 32, it lists more than JUST sexual immorality. It talks about a variety of sins, including homosexual acts of both men and women..... AND even includes those who approve of those who practice each of the things mentioned in the passage. So, again, YES, she has sinned against her husband. Whether you want to accept that as truth or not, it is a sin.


Yup.
Introducing a sex partner your spouse has no knowledge of or ability to consent to is deception at best.

Even swingers are angry at the deception of their spouse if they have sex with someone without their knowledge.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

Maricha75 said:


> He pointed out Romans 1:26 as talking about women with women. Unfortunately, he went on to say that those who use that particular verse use verse 27 to "hammer it home" so to speak. Maybe some do, but not all. Verse 27 speaks specifically about male homosexuals. That is very evident. But, taking the entire passage in context, from verse 18 through verse 32, it lists more than JUST sexual immorality. It talks about a variety of sins, including homosexual acts of both men and women..... AND even includes those who approve of those who practice each of the things mentioned in the passage. So, again, YES, she has sinned against her husband. Whether you want to accept that as truth or not, it is a sin.


No. Romans 1:26, based on the context of the chapter up to that point, is most likely talking about bestiality; the preceding verses speaking about the gods taken the forms of birds (Leda and Swan/Zeus for example) and beasts (Europa and the White Bull/Zeus again). Paul, like Phil, equates bestiality and male homosexuality (1:27) as equal sexual sins, as does Leviticus. If you spin verse 26 as forbidding anal (as was done before lesbianism became an issue in the Church) or forbidding lesbianism (newer spin) you put Paul in the place of decreeing a new sin, since these were never sins before, either in the Bible or in ancient Hebrew culture.


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## Fozzy

Mach and Anon make decent cases for there not being a biblical prohibition on what happened, however I take the stance that since this board is geared not just toward religion, but solving marital problems...i'd have to say that what occurred is dangerous to a marriage.

Sorry. Sex is sex. Sex bonds people. Having sex with someone other than your spouse (even if it isn't "adultery") is not healthy for your marriage.

Yes, OP asked if she'd sinned, but she asked it on a marriage board, not on Christian.com.


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## jld

I just don't want the girl going off the deep end. She accidentally discovered something that she has been taught could send her to hell. 

I think we should all be especially kind and gentle with her right now. People have done drastic things when they feel they might be forsaken by a deity.

I don't think her question was really her question. I think we need to see beyond it to what she is really seeking: assurance that she is worthy of God's love. She is scared, folks.


----------



## Maricha75

*smh* There is nothing more to say. I disagree with both Mach and Anon, but it is their choice to believe as they wish.

God is forgiving. "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 Jn 1:9 I hope LR is able to get this worked out. She is just as worthy of God's love as any other person is. We are all sinners. We all do/have done things against what God says are right.


----------



## Machiavelli

Fozzy said:


> Mach and Anon make decent cases for there not being a biblical prohibition on what happened, however I take the stance that since this board is geared not just toward religion, but solving marital problems...i'd have to say that what occurred is dangerous to a marriage.
> 
> Sorry. Sex is sex. Sex bonds people. Having sex with someone other than your spouse (even if it isn't "adultery") is not healthy for your marriage.
> 
> Yes, OP asked if she'd sinned, but she asked it on a marriage board, not on Christian.com.


Sin is about religion, and the questioner said she was a Christian, so I answered her under the terms of what the Bible says about it and what the practices were in the time in which the Bible was written. Which is why I stated I was ignoring "tradition" which changes over time depending on who is pope or wannabepope or whatever is popular at the time.

Now as for what anyone does with that info, if anything, "every man does that which is right in his own eyes."


----------



## Machiavelli

mablenc said:


> The bible is very specific about adultery being a sin.


The Bible, the Law of Moses, and the current civil/criminal law of numerous countries and states, descended from various earlier sources including English Common Law, is very specific about the definition of what adultery is. Basically, it's coitus between a married woman and any man other than her husband. The end. We find the biblical prohibition and definition in Leviticus 18:20 _"You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor's wife , to be defiled with her."_ And more in depth, in Leviticus 20:10 _“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."_

The very word "adulterate" means to add a foreign substance; hence "adultery." And that foreign substance is strange seed.

_State v. Lash_ 1838
"There never was an action for adultery known to be maintained at the common law by any but a husband showing that the offense can not possibly be committed with any other than a married woman. The heinousness of it consists in exposing an innocent husband to maintain another man's children and having them succeed to his inheritance. This is the common law doctrine of adultery transmitted to us from the earliest times by those venerable sages who gathered it from existing precedents, records, and decisions at the times they respectively wrote. I shall cite only a few of them, because the records and decisions referred to by them have been so faithfully consulted and the testimony of those sages examined and condensed with such admirable precision in the imperishable commentaries of _Blackstone_ that it is almost vanity to go behind his work. 
"More definite language can not be selected for confining adultery to illicit intercourse with a married woman than his following definition of the offense: 'Adultery or criminal conversation with a man's wife.' The woman must not be single, she must be another man's wife, and whoever, married or single, has illicit intercourse with her becomes guilty of adultery. The text is in _III Bl. Com._ 139 and is so clear of ambiguity as to challenge any attempt to evade it."

So what we see is that woman must be married and it doesn't matter whether the man is married or not. It is adultery due to the marital status of the woman.

In _Blanchflower v. Blanchflower_, NH Supreme Court ruled it was impossible for two women to commit adultery since intercourse was coitus.


----------



## mablenc

Machiavelli said:


> The Bible, the Law of Moses, and the current civil/criminal law of numerous countries and states, descended from various earlier sources including English Common Law, is very specific about the definition of what adultery is. Basically, it's coitus between a married woman and any man other than her husband. The end. We find the biblical prohibition and definition in Leviticus 18:20 _"You shall not have intercourse with your neighbor's wife , to be defiled with her."_ And more in depth, in Leviticus 20:10 _“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."_
> 
> The very word "adulterate" means to add a foreign substance; hence "adultery." And that foreign substance is strange seed.
> 
> _State v. Lash_ 1838
> "There never was an action for adultery known to be maintained at the common law by any but a husband showing that the offense can not possibly be committed with any other than a married woman. The heinousness of it consists in exposing an innocent husband to maintain another man's children and having them succeed to his inheritance. This is the common law doctrine of adultery transmitted to us from the earliest times by those venerable sages who gathered it from existing precedents, records, and decisions at the times they respectively wrote. I shall cite only a few of them, because the records and decisions referred to by them have been so faithfully consulted and the testimony of those sages examined and condensed with such admirable precision in the imperishable commentaries of _Blackstone_ that it is almost vanity to go behind his work.
> "More definite language can not be selected for confining adultery to illicit intercourse with a married woman than his following definition of the offense: 'Adultery or criminal conversation with a man's wife.' The woman must not be single, she must be another man's wife, and whoever, married or single, has illicit intercourse with her becomes guilty of adultery. The text is in _III Bl. Com._ 139 and is so clear of ambiguity as to challenge any attempt to evade it."
> 
> So what we see is that woman must be married and it doesn't matter whether the man is married or not. It is adultery due to the marital status of the woman.
> 
> In _Blanchflower v. Blanchflower_, NH Supreme Court ruled it was impossible for two women to commit adultery since intercourse was coitus.


Adultery is adultery, like I said before, the bible won't specify to the "t" for every possible scenario. Plus you are quoting court cases, I thought we were talking about religion. Getting off sexually with another person while belong married is Adultery.


----------



## MissFroggie

If you can't call it adultery (although that is exactly what I would define it as), but assuming you can't call it adultery then it is still a sin according to the 10th commandment - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

Personally I am atheist so don't have the complications of having to have my moral code in line with any scriptures or the interpretations of those scriptures according to a particular denomination etc. However, I think we would all agree what happened here was wrong and the OP needs to do something about it. We don't all share the same views on what she should do next, so maybe it would be more helpful to her if we looked at those instead of arguing about Bible verses?


----------



## Machiavelli

mablenc said:


> Adultery is adultery, like I said before, the bible won't specify to the "t" for every possible scenario. Plus you are quoting court cases, I thought we were talking about religion. Getting off sexually with another person while belong married is Adultery.


In that case, here's your Bible straight:

Leviticus 20:10 “If a *man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor,* both the *adulterer and the adulteress* shall surely be put to death."

Anything else, is somebody making something up.


----------



## mablenc

MissFroggie said:


> If you can't call it adultery (although that is exactly what I would define it as), but assuming you can't call it adultery then it is still a sin according to the 10th commandment - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
> 
> Personally I am atheist so don't have the complications of having to have my moral code in line with any scriptures or the interpretations of those scriptures according to a particular denomination etc. However, I think we would all agree what happened here was wrong and the OP needs to do something about it. We don't all share the same views on what she should do next, so maybe it would be more helpful to her if we looked at those instead of arguing about Bible verses?


I think she needs to talk to her church leaders.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Machiavelli

MissFroggie said:


> If you can't call it adultery (although that is exactly what I would define it as), but assuming you can't call it adultery then it is still a sin according to the 10th commandment - Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.


If the SIL desires and plots to take physical possession of her BIL's property (the definition of "covet"), then the SIL is guilty of covetousness.



MissFroggie said:


> Personally I am atheist so don't have the complications of having to have my moral code in line with any scriptures or the interpretations of those scriptures according to a particular denomination etc. However, *I think we would all agree what happened here was wrong* and the OP needs to do something about it. We don't all share the same views on what she should do next, so maybe it would be more helpful to her if we looked at those instead of arguing about Bible verses?


While I don't see the problem in the act itself, I suggested a course of action in line with that of biblical times in my first post: get permission from the husband or don't do it.


----------



## MissFroggie

Machiavelli said:


> If the SIL desires and plots to take physical possession of her BIL's property (the definition of "covet"), then the SIL is guilty of covetousness.


Which is a sin...question answered.




Machiavelli said:


> While I don't see the problem in the act itself, I suggested a course of action in line with that of biblical times in my first post: get permission from the husband or don't do it.


I don't have a problem with homosexuality either. I do have a problem with breaking agreements/promises/vows ... eg. sexual contact with another person after promising to a monogamous relationship.

She didn't ask her husband for permission so whether we believe it acceptable if he had agreed to it or not is irrelevant.


----------



## Machiavelli

MissFroggie said:


> Which is a sin...question answered..


It remains to be seen whether or not the SIL intends to relocate the OP into SIL's husband's harem. Covetousness is an intent to steal.



MissFroggie said:


> I don't have a problem with homosexuality either. .


I don't approve of "homosexuality" as defined by the German homosexual who invented the term back in the 1800's. His homosexuality doesn't include women. He wanted the word to be a replacement for "********" in a pamphlet he wrote advocating repeal of paragraph 143 of the German Penal Code which stated:

_Unnatural fornication, whether between persons of the male sex or of humans with beasts, is punished with imprisonment of six months to four years, with the further punishment of a prompt loss of civil rights._

That above is right out of Leviticus, but with lighter punishment. Notice only male "homosexuality" is proscribed, as in the Bible.



MissFroggie said:


> I do have a problem with breaking agreements/promises/vows ... eg. sexual contact with another person after promising to a monogamous relationship.


I agree that promises must be kept, but we don't know what vows were used or said. These days, people write their own. I hear some people even take out "obey." So, it may or may not violate their vows, depending on what those vows were.



MissFroggie said:


> She didn't ask her husband for permission so whether we believe it acceptable if he had agreed to it or not is irrelevant.


According to the tale, it was not premeditated, so she could not obtain permission. Verily, it is written: "it is better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission."


----------



## MissFroggie

Machiavelli said:


> It remains to be seen whether or not the SIL intends to relocate the OP into SIL's husband's harem. Covetousness is an intent to steal.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't approve of "homosexuality" as defined by the German homosexual who invented the term back in the 1800's. His homosexuality doesn't include women. He wanted the word to be a replacement for "********" in a pamphlet he wrote advocating repeal of paragraph 143 of the German Penal Code which stated:
> 
> _Unnatural fornication, whether between persons of the male sex or of humans with beasts, is punished with imprisonment of six months to four years, with the further punishment of a prompt loss of civil rights._
> 
> That above is right out of Leviticus, but with lighter punishment. Notice only male "homosexuality" is proscribed, as in the Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that promises must be kept, but we don't know what vows were used or said. These days, people write their own. I hear some people even take out "obey." So, it may or may not violate their vows, depending on what those vows were.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the tale, it was not premeditated, so she could not obtain permission. Verily, it is written: "it is better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission."


:rofl:


----------



## Mr Blunt

*Lovable Resin	Title of thread	“Am I a sinner?”*


LR, since you have stated that you are of the Christian faith I will give you the Christian faith scriptures below. I am giving you three versions; The NIV was formulated over many years by the theologians through out the whole world. The New Living is by the modern theologians and the King James is the oldest English Bible that was mass produced

Romans 1 
*New International Version (NIV)*
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.


Romans 1 (*New Living Translation)*
26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.


Romans 1 *(King James Version)*
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


*LR, you can read for yourself the above verses and in the end you will be the one that will determine if your activity with your SIL is a sin or not.*


If you are like many Christians the Bible has more authority than other authorities on the issue of sin. “Am I a sinner” is the title of your thread and since your are a Christian I would think that those that are trying to reduce the importance of the Bible or your Christian faith would have respect for your chosen faith.



LR, your Christian Bible has a lot more scriptures on redemption and forgiveness than women to women sex. In fact the Bible‘s main theme is reconciliation back to God because we are all sinners. *There is a ton of hope for your situation in your Christian faith!*


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## Lovable Resin

Hello all and thanks for the answers. I am sorry I have not been able to post for awhile. I still have not told my husband or anyone as I am afraid what will happen if I do. I really do not know what to do. As my own family is several states away my husband's sister is the person I usually talk to and she is also my best friend but it has been awkward at best between us since the incident. I will try to answer some of the questions asked.

I have been married to my husband almost eight years and we have a seven year old daughter together. This is his second marriage and he has a 18 year old daughter from his previous marriage who lives with us. I am 26 and my husband is 39.

The back story I mentioned is basically that me and my sister in law have known each other since kids and she is two years older than me. We are very comfortable around each other and we have slept in the same bed and cuddled before and it has not been a problem for us. I can see now when I look at her that something has changed which is why it is so awkward.

I really don't know how my husband will react if I tell him. He does have a little short fuse and gets angry easily. He has sometimes pushed me around when he is mad about something.


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## jld

How about a secular counselor? Even someone at a shelter could talk with you.

I am really glad you have not told him considering he has a history of hitting you.

Again, please seek counseling.


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## Maricha75

jld said:


> How about a secular counselor? Even someone at a shelter could talk with you.
> 
> I am really glad you have not told him considering *he has a history of hitting you.
> *
> Again, please seek counseling.


First, I want to say that abuse in any form is not ok. But, I do want to say that there is a difference between PUSHING someone and HITTING. I do agree with jld that it's better to talk to a counselor about what happened. Truthfully, you and your SIL need to stop ignoring it because sooner or later, one of your husbands, if not both, will pick up on something and it will make the situation that much worse. I won't suggest a secular counselor, but a Christian one instead. I'm not saying pick one from your own church, obviously, but possibly one from a different denomination. But that's just my opinion.


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## Anon Pink

I don't recommend a Christian counselor at ALL!!!!!

Women's issues are not taken seriously at the "training" Christian counselors are given. Secondly, if your husband is a "Christian" why the hell is he pushing you around? So how's that Christianity working out for you two?

Lesbian affairs and domestic abuse...totally Chrisitan!

Find a secular counselor or call a women's shelter and seek counseling. Do this as soon as possible so you get expert help expertly trained.


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## unbelievable

If you aren't a sinner, you're something other than human.


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## Maricha75

Sigh... AP, there is nothing wrong with a CHRISTIAN woman seeking counseling from a TRAINED, and LICENSED CHRISTIAN counselor. Again, I suggest seeking out a CHRISTIAN counselor because LR, herself is a CHRISTIAN. 

BTW, even we Christians do stupid things. Doesn't make it right, but, we are, like everyone else, HUMAN. I suggest NOT seeing a secular counselor because they are more likely to say it's perfectly normal.


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## Anon Pink

I happen to be familiar with the various training requirements.

So


Sigh.... Don't see a Christian counselor if you want real help!


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## Maricha75

Totally disagree AP. Licensed Christian counselors have to get the same education. The difference? The Christian counselor has a godly, rather than a worldly perspective. LR said she is a Christian. She should see a licensed Christian counselor.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## Anon Pink

Maricha75 said:


> Totally disagree AP. Licensed Christian counselors have to get the same education. The difference? The Christian counselor has a godly, rather than a worldly perspective. LR said she is a Christian. She should see a licensed Christian counselor.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


No they don't. They're undergrad requirements are very different.


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## Mr Blunt

The title of LR’s thread is * “AM I A SINNER"*
LR has stated that she is a Christian
Christian’s value the Bible in dealing with sin


LR, I also think you should see a qualified Christen Counselor even though AP has judged them all as not taking women issues seriously. One of your main concerns is about sin as a Christian. 

AP does not know all Christian counselors and to make such a sweeping judgment seems Like judging all without all the facts. I doubt that AP has knowledge of ALL Christian Counselors.


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## Maricha75

Exactly, Mr. Blunt. Even Christian counselors go to secular universities and get the same training as the secular counselors. They offer the Christian perspective, which is beneficial to a Christian.


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## over20

Anon Pink said:


> No they don't. They're undergrad requirements are very different.


It depends if it's just through a church or through a private or state practice.

Some congregations will put a volunteer through a class or two, to help counsel, which sometimes can be enough OR not. 

There are Phycologists/Psychotherapists/Counselors that are also Christians.


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## over20

MissFroggie said:


> In my experience I have found that Christian counsellors are able to justify sweeping things under the rug by using the Bible to influence their advice.
> 
> As a teenager I saw a number of Christian counsellors about the abuse I was dealing with at home. I was repeatedly told to 'Honour thy father and mother'. The physical abuse was dismissed as my parent's loving me by chastising me. I was lectured on obedience. When I went to the police they refused to testify and influenced witnesses not to testify as it was against the Bible and I was defying my parents. My dad got 14 years and I am thankful religion has no place in the legal system here or I'd have probably ended up with 40 lashes and sent back to be raped by him for a few more years.
> 
> Go to someone secular for counselling and your priest/minister for spiritual advice.



I am so sorry to hear that.. My heart is broken for you... Those counselors were very, very wrong. They misinterpreted Scripture. They were very, very evil and will be judged by God, they contributed to your pain and wronged you in the worst way. 

I hope you can still have a relationship with Christ despite what happened with those people. I am a Christian and know first hand how some leaders can skew the Bible. Some of the meanest people I have known were Christians in my own church.

Prayers and thoughts to you for a completely healed heart...


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## Maricha75

MissFroggie said:


> In my experience I have found that Christian counsellors are able to justify sweeping things under the rug by using the Bible to influence their advice.
> 
> As a teenager I saw a number of Christian counsellors about the abuse I was dealing with at home. I was repeatedly told to 'Honour thy father and mother'. The physical abuse was dismissed as my parent's loving me by chastising me. I was lectured on obedience. When I went to the police they refused to testify and influenced witnesses not to testify as it was against the Bible and I was defying my parents. My dad got 14 years and I am thankful religion has no place in the legal system here or I'd have probably ended up with 40 lashes and sent back to be raped by him for a few more years.


Even the Christian counselors I know of would say those you saw were wrong. Way wrong. 
I am so sorry you were faced with that. What your dad did was against God, your mom, and you. Let me guess, the counselors used "Thou shall not bear false witness"? True, but when called upon, you are to tell the truth. They had the legal responsibility to testify. And, I am angry that they did NOT speak up for you.

Yes, I will acknowledge that SOME Christian counselors advise rugsweeping...as do some secular counselors. But no, not all Christian counselors behave as yours did. 



MissFroggie said:


> Go to someone secular for counselling and your priest/minister for spiritual advice.


In this case, how she presented it, they are intertwined. So, should she go to the pastor about the spiritual ramifications of cheating on her husband? She has asked how what she did translates into her Christian walk. How would a secular counselor address THAT aspect? As over20 pointed out, some psychologists/psychiatrists/counselors are Christians. Some are trained in the secular world, but ARE Christian. They understand where she's coming from, as a Christian... and they have the training to help her.


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## jld

MissFroggie said:


> In my experience I have found that Christian counsellors are able to justify sweeping things under the rug by using the Bible to influence their advice.
> 
> As a teenager I saw a number of Christian counsellors about the abuse I was dealing with at home. I was repeatedly told to 'Honour thy father and mother'. The physical abuse was dismissed as my parent's loving me by chastising me. I was lectured on obedience. When I went to the police they refused to testify and influenced witnesses not to testify as it was against the Bible and I was defying my parents. My dad got 14 years and I am thankful religion has no place in the legal system here or I'd have probably ended up with 40 lashes and sent back to be raped by him for a few more years.
> 
> Go to someone secular for counselling and your priest/minister for spiritual advice.


(((((((((MissFroggie)))))))))


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## Anon Pink

The horrible thing that Miss Froggie suffered through is not an isolated incident.




over20 said:


> Those counselors were very, very wrong. They misinterpreted Scripture. They were very, very evil and will be judged by God, they contributed to your pain and wronged you in the worst way.





Maricha75 said:


> Even the Christian counselors I know of would say those you saw were wrong. Way wrong.
> I am so sorry you were faced with that. What your dad did was against God, your mom, and you. Let me guess, the counselors used "Thou shall not bear false witness"? True, but when called upon, you are to tell the truth. They had the legal responsibility to testify. And, I am angry that they did NOT speak up for you.
> 
> Yes, I will acknowledge that SOME Christian counselors advise rugsweeping...as do some secular counselors. But no, not all Christian counselors behave as yours did.


Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted scripture doesn't change what happened either. Secular therapists have more rigorous training, and when they screw up, they are booted out!

I know of several "Christian Counselors" with whom I would leave a pet to care for let alone a woman going through a very difficult time!

Chrisitan counselors are good for crisis of faith. Secular counselors take care of human behavioral difficulties. Her issue isn't one of faith, it is one of human behavioral difficulty.


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## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted scripture doesn't change what happened either. Secular therapists have more rigorous training, and when they screw up, they are booted out!
> 
> ...
> 
> Chrisitan counselors are good for crisis of faith. Secular counselors take care of human behavioral difficulties. Her issue isn't one of faith, it is one of human behavioral difficulty.


You are right. Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted Scripture doesn't change what happened....And booting a therapist out wouldn't change what happened either. A step in the right direction? Certainly. Still, wouldn't change what DID happen.

Ok, I think I want to get something clear on this. Would you consider a counselor who got a degree at University of Michigan, taking the entire course program there, but happens to be a Christian, a secular counselor or a Christian counselor? I would call them Christian counselors because they bring the Christian perspective to the session. But maybe you consider them secular, due to the education they received?


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## Anon Pink

They would be secular because they received secular education. Keep in mind, hanging out a shingle as a Christian counselor takes any undergrad degree and a training course. In some states they don't even have to pass the boards. 

This is why I suggest people see a PhD therapist. Not a counselor which is a bachelors degree and training, not a social worker, which is a masters degree and passing the boards, but a PhD Dr of Psychology.


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## Maricha75

Anon Pink said:


> They would be secular because they received secular education. Keep in mind, hanging out a shingle as a Christian counselor takes any undergrad degree and a training course. In some states they don't even have to pass the boards.
> 
> This is why I suggest people see a PhD therapist. Not a counselor which is a bachelors degree and training, not a social worker, which is a masters degree and passing the boards, but a PhD Dr of Psychology.


Ok, NOW we're getting somewhere! I was thinking of them as Christian because they ARE Christian. And I wasn't talking about undergrad and a little training. I meant a psychologist. I apologize for that. No, I agree, she needs to see someone who has the PhD. And, like many others, I was using the term "counselor" in place of "psychologist".


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## over20

Anon Pink said:


> The horrible thing that Miss Froggie suffered through is not an isolated incident.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Saying they were wrong doesn't change what happened. Saying they misinterpreted scripture doesn't change what happened either. Secular therapists have more rigorous training, and when they screw up, they are booted out!
> 
> I know of several "Christian Counselors" with whom I would leave a pet to care for let alone a woman going through a very difficult time!
> 
> Chrisitan counselors are good for crisis of faith. Secular counselors take care of human behavioral difficulties. Her issue isn't one of faith, it is one of human behavioral difficulty.



There is good and bad on both sides. We all shouldn't generalize on this issue, even myself. Research, research, research is key to finding the perfect fit for Doc to pt.

If a pt is a Christian going through human behavioral difficulties it WILL affect the pt.'s faith. A doc then needs to treat the "whole" pt. or refer the pt to one that can treat them that way. 

Example, my Dh works at a Catholic hospital. If a pt, who is suffering physically wants spiritual help as well, they can receive it. A pt. may need spiritual guidance for a physical trauma. Body and soul are wonderfully connected that way.


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## Anon Pink

over20 said:


> There is good and bad on both sides. We all shouldn't generalize on this issue, even myself. Research, research, research is key to finding the perfect fit for Doc to pt.
> 
> If a pt is a Christian going through human behavioral difficulties it WILL affect the pt.'s faith. A doc then needs to treat the "whole" pt. or refer the pt to one that can treat them that way.
> 
> Example, my Dh works at a Catholic hospital. *If a pt, who is suffering physically wants spiritual help as well, they can receive it. A pt. may need spiritual guidance for a physical trauma. Body and soul are wonderfully connected that way.*


You just proved my point.


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## over20

MissFroggie said:


> I should clarify, this wasn't ONE Christian counsellor - it was ALL the Christian counsellors I saw. They didn't want to talk about the issues I was dealing with, ALL they wanted to talk about was religion...and MY SIN!!! One even dismissed it as one of the ways God inflicts the sin of the forefathers onto us! She went on to explain how sin was passed down and the consequences of an ancestor for generations ago could befall me and that was God's PLAN!!! So basically I deserved all that had happened because God wanted it to so who are we to question it! I was abused because Adam and Eve couldn't resist temptation and my closer ancestors (maybe several generations before I even existed) were obviously especially terrible sinners and this was God's punishment and my own sins were probably why this had happened to me too. Gee, thanks! I needed counselling to get over the counselling!
> 
> When I complained about it they talked wishy-washy Bible talk and nothing was done...not a thing! They continued to mess up people's minds and are likely still doing it!
> 
> However, when I had secular counselling - I have been able to discuss faith if I want to without being told WHAT to believe. I had one who mistakenly assumed I was Muslim and gave me a mini-lecture one session on being a single Muslim woman with a child and gave me a website address for an exclusively Muslim dating company! What???? I complained and she was sacked and I was given someone else. There was no question what she had done was inappropriate and unethical.
> 
> I absolutely stand by it that secular counselling has a higher standard of ethics and responsibility to the client. If she wants spiritual guidance she should see her minister, if she wants psychological help to deal with things she should see a secular counsellor, I think she wants both...so see both!
> 
> 
> 
> Not a counsellor who happens to be Christian - I'm talking about a 'Christian Counsellor' from a Christian counselling service. I have no idea what religious views most of my secular counsellors have even had - I'm an atheist so religion only really comes up when I'm talking about previous incidents involving the Church and the Bible being used as a weapon against me. An appropriately trained counsellor will be able to deal with spiritual conflict regardless of their personal faith. They keep it to your views, your feelings, your thoughts and don't try to influence your beliefs based on _their_ interpretation or understanding of the Bible etc.
> 
> Note to OP: Just so you realise, we are not arguing between ourselves lol. We are trying to work out, together, and with all our different opinions, what would be the best advice for you and how to help you the best possible way



I am so sorry that you feel the Church and Bible have been used as a weapon against you......it's so very wrong....and is not what Christ is about...

You are very, very strong.....not all of us Christians are like them....I have been a Christian all my life and have known very mean Christians and very kind ones.......

Blessings


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## over20

Anon Pink said:


> You just proved my point.


Great.....I Thought you were trying to separate the two....:scratchhead:


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## Anon Pink

over20 said:


> Great.....I Thought you were trying to separate the two....:scratchhead:


My apologies. I failed to pay close enough attention.


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## mupostori

Mr Mach did a quick one but lets go back to Romans 1:26

"Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones"

the women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones

The argument comes down to what is natural and what is un-natural sex.

In deed he is right bestiality is an unnatural sex and so is lesbian sex.


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## Mr Blunt

The OP seems to have a least two concerns.
*1	Am I a sinner?

2	How she should deal with her husband about her sexual experience with her SIL*


As for the first I still say that a COMETENT minister/priest, that has been successful with helping others with such sin, should be considered. Of course the more training a minister/priest has in theology would be the best bet


As for the second issue I would say again that a COMETENT, therapist that has been successful with helping couples in this kind of situation, should be considered. A therapist with a PhD would be the best bet.

Back to the sinner question. Most people that I know can read the bible and know how to pray. I think that a person can get a very good idea about if they are a sinner or not without a lot of others involved. I know when I had sex with a girl when I was a teen that it was a sin. I did not need any minister/ priest or PhD to tell me that.


However, I think that a good competent experienced proven Christian counselor can help reassure that the sin can be forgiven by God and the guilt does not have to be permanent or keep you from progressing. Discovering if something is a sin is not the most important discovery. *The most important discovery is that God will forgive you and comfort you regardless if anyone else does*. That can possibly be the great value of a competent Minister or Priest.





As for MissFroggy being abused I think that those Christian counselors that she referred to are a great detriment to Christian counseling and a great detriment to Christian wisdom.
Furthermore, those Christian counselors failed to protect an innocent child. They took scripture and applied it incorrectly (Honor thy mother and father) but did not consider the scripture that Jesus himself said concerning harming a child. This scripture below is mention in THREE of the Gospels. Not many verses are repeated three times but the one below is.

*1.	Matthew 18:6 
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.*


Yes Jesus mentioned killing in His statement about abusers of children! Jesus’ main theme was for forgiveness, reconciliation, and real love but there are a few things that demands justice be brought forth.

MssFroggy, I do not blame you for running away from such incompetent blind 
wisdom-less so called Christians. I wish that there was an authority that would take their counseling privileges away.

We Christians are called to the forgiveness and love of Christ but with out ever forgetting to protect the children and promote His justice when necessary!

Frankly with a sin and a crime such as molestation of a child I do think that the legal system in our culture would be best to intervene and put a stop to it and impose the appropriate punishment.

*True Christianity applied correctly is so very valuable and it is a travesty that some so called ministers can be so ignorant and misrepresent a great faith.*


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## jld

You have such a good heart, Mr. Blunt. I am so glad you are here.


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## Machiavelli

mupostori said:


> Mr Mach did a quick one but lets go back to Romans 1:26
> 
> "Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones"
> 
> the women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones
> 
> The argument comes down to what is natural and what is un-natural sex.
> 
> In deed he is right bestiality is an unnatural sex and so is lesbian sex.


Prove it. Use scripture other than Romans 1:26, since I've already defused that.


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## lfortender

Thats simple. God forgives you, because Jesus died in the cross and paid all your sins. Ask for God forgiveness and dont do it anymore!


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## Microwavelove

If you want to see a Christian Counselor, there are Christian LCPCs that you can go see. Someone receiving their state licensure will have to go through the same process, regardless of religious background. There is a difference between a "counselor" and a licensed therapist. It may be important for you to see someone who at least has a Christian background, because there are a lot of religious issues that you need to untangle that a completely secular counselor may not be able to fully grasp. That said, you definitely don't want to go to someone who has not been properly trained.


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## forevermemorable

Okay, I have read all of the responses by Lovable Resin only. So, my response will only be based upon Lovable Resin's responses. I just didn't have time to read everyone's long drawn out responses and I don't know what anyone has said except that of Lovable Resin.

Your thread topic is titled, "Am I a sinner." I think this is the primarily concern for why you find yourself in this forum asking the question that you do. There is a confusion within your soul and heart. There is also a conviction by the Lord that tells you that you probably have done something wrong. Of course, I say "probably" because this is why you pose the question, because you are not sure if you have done something wrong. In light of this, I would ask you, "Have you ever given your life to Jesus Christ?" Have you ever asked the Lord into your life as Lord and Savior? Have you ever believed that Jesus died on the cross for all of your sins, was raised from the grave and you received Him into your life?

In light of your post, I would question (not condemn or judge) whether you truly believe in Jesus as Lord or if Jesus has always been your mother's faith and a bunch of rules and regulations that you are suppose to follow.

Okay, the basic fundamentals of Christianity is this...yes my dear lady, you are a sinner! What you did was sinful and against the Lord. You were unfaithful to your husband by means of a homosexual encounter. How did this happen? It happen by means of demonic influences from your sister-in-law. She brought in a demonic presence that has held you captive; of which your were pulled into. And I am not excusing your actions, because everyone is lead astray of their own lust and entice. You had the choice/freewill to tell your best friend, "No."

Yes, you are a sinner! And so am I and so is everyone on the face of this planet. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). However, these is good news for you, there is good news for me, and there is good news for anyone and everyone who is willing to recieve God's message of hope, grace, and mercy for us. God is the God of a second chance, a third chance, and as many chances as you need to get right with Him.

First of all, you need to bring forth a confession for your actions. Keeping your sins hidden will not help you what-so-ever. There needs to be confession and the proper place is first with the Lord. Be transparent with the Lord and tell Him what you did. Next, tell the Lord how sorry you are for your actions (if you truly are). Pray for His forgiveness. And invite Him (or re-invite Him) into your life as Lord and Savior. Confess! Repent! Receive! Believe! Lastly, I highly encourage you to confess your sins before your husband, because he really should know. There is no business living in a relationship with your husband with concealed lies or sins against him. You need to share with your heaven Father and than share with your earthly husband! There is no other way about it. And the Scriptures promises you that He is faithful and just to forgive you and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. I guarantee you, any guilt and sin that hoovers over you because of your actions with your best friend, will flee and fade away when you get right with God and confess also to your husband.

Please let us know how it all turns out. I will be praying for you.


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## pakmenu

Also read all of Resins's feedback and first two pages... much are saying exactly the same. We are all sinners, yes. Yet I disagree with the course of action to tell your husband. You seem not comfortable to do so. I'm sure you already confessed and talked to God about it, did he give you any advice? Me myself I'm in an affair right now and I asked God. He DID answer. only once and the message was simple: (I was on my knees asking forgiveness) It's ok, He said. But stop it now, and do not continue your sin.

It was simple message, but not so simple for me. My actual marriage lacks a spark, and though not completely without affection, nearly so. But that's not even the point. The issue is I never ended ANY relationship with women (about 20 in my life) as my opinion was always to be forever with them. It's always been them that ended it. I somehow feel like a traitor starting something and then ending the relationship. + I don't want to hurt anyone. (ok i know it's hypocrite, because i already hurtmany by doing it)

That message of God was a year ago, and i've spend a year secretly seeing my affair and enjoying a lot of intimacy with her. I shouldn't have, and i'm near the point now i think i can end it. I guess my problem is that the temptation is just too big and i can't help myself. my affair doesn't see the point of quitting because God told me so, as she doesn't beleive. And me I can't get myself to beleive full 100% in God, as sometimes my atheist past makes me doubt I'm just deluding myself with chistianity, and God. I know I heard you, but come on you can talk a bit more to me then just a few words every year! I need you here, but i realize it could be you're not talking to me as i first need to obey the words you already told me. 

about not telling your husband:
In the bible it's happens many many times that the good guys are having secrets, and it's a command not to tell lies, but not telling everything to everyone is certainsly no lie. I remember no command to share all and everything with your spouse. However, husband and wife DO become ONE. I believe that firmly. The day I said my affair goodbye, without knowing i did that my wife kissed me passionately for the first time in atleast 3 years. So even without telling him, it unfortunately WILL affect him. however in general people who commit adultery in the bible have to confess and repent to God, but I remember no story where it's reccomended action is to confess to the spouse. You'll either just hurt him, or worse: give him temptations thinking about what happened between you, he might get arroused! there's only one passage against lesbian relationships but it's pretty clear it's not to be persued. But it's said that many will be worse of then sodom and gomorra, so the 'homosexual' sin is not the worst sin, and one that can be forgiven. Plus you could see it as pleasing yourself but in company, and there's no laws against masturbation (please don't start with quote that it's a sin to masturbate as ... let his seed fall to the ground, this was a sin because by law he was supposed to impregnate the wife of his deceiced brother, to give her a family. something that nowadays would be considered utterly disgusting and a sin by most of you, + no biblical verse agianst masturbation by women) I would say the most difficult thing for you will be to decide if you need to find out more about your feelings for your husbands sister, or... if you can leave it at this. If you find it difficult to talk to her, why not ask her to pray together. Talk out loud to God in prayer about your feelings about what happened, and then she'll pray. With my wife we often communicated 'indirectly' by praying to God, and so I could find out her true feelings, and she mine, without us talking directly to eachother, and we'd dare say things we really mean, we wouldn't normally dare to say directly to eachother.

I'm sure secretly some actually have been 'enjoying' the thought of your story, because let's be honest: it sounds like at the time it was nice. It did sound like it was more her initiative then yours (but you recipricated) and it can very well be that she's strugling with it even more then you, as she feels more guilty, as she was the one who couldn't control her feelings. so again i reccomend praying together with her. If you don't feel comfortable praying only with her in private, maybe with another woman from church? Seems more appropriate to me then a man, but you understand in that case not choose someone who could remotely be tempted by these things herself! Wish you peace and forgiveness, and a restored relationship with your husbands sister and all involved (ie your husband).


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## forevermemorable

pakmenu said:


> Yet I disagree with the course of action to tell your husband.


Honesty is always the key in any and every relationship. Of course your advice would be shared this way, because you are not following that which you preach. We do not come to the light, lest our deeds be exposed. There is no way to have a relationship with anyone without open honest communication. Once that trust has been betrayed, then you live within the shadows of your sins. Be sure your sins will find you out!



pakmenu said:


> Me myself I'm in an affair right now and I asked God. He DID answer. only once and the message was simple: (I was on my knees asking forgiveness) It's ok, He said. But stop it now, and do not continue your sin.


First of all, it is not right to sin. Sin is not bad because it is forbidden, sin is forbidden, because it is bad. Think about that phrase. Adultery is adultery no matter how much you try to paint it or sugar coat it. Its a violation of one of God's 10 commandments AND it is never a good thing when we sin against God. God takes no delight in sin and those who live in it. However, God does forgive sin and He washes all of our sins away. But like the Apostle Paul said, "Shall we who died to sin, still live in it, that we should obey its lusts?" There is a difference between screwing up with something here and there vs actually "living" in sin. You are "living" in sin. Your foolish heart is darken. I totally understand if you committed adultery once and maybe twice. Sure, you seek forgiveness and than you do the most important thing ever...YOU REPENT! The word repent means that you turn from doing. In other words, you make a 180 degree turn from the opposite direction. Let him who sinned, sin no longer. You must get right with God.

Now God does forgive, but you MUST get right with Him. What a mockery for us to seek out forgiveness and God's love, only to slap Him in the face by living a carnal lifestyle. God is NOT mocked, for what you sow, you shall also reap. There are grave consequences for your actions and if you think for once that you can play around with fire and not get burned, you better watch out, because I know of many of Christians that played around with strange fire (speaking of adultery) and God removed them from this earth, because of their foolish and lustful lifestyle. Do I believe this holds true of everyone? No, but I wouldn't want to leave a question mark on this issue. The Bible is very clear about abiding in Christ, that you might bear much fruit. But if you do not abide in Christ (as John says), that you are cut off and thrown into the fire.

Now, I totally believe you about the part where God spoke to you and told you to stop it. Did you stop it? Of course not and you have continued thereafter for a year. Let me tell you this my dear friend...God will NOT tell you anything else in life. He has given you one task...STOP fooling around with adultery. There is only one thing for you to do now...REPENT! Get right with God! Anything else that you try to do, will be in vain! God will NOT hear you, for your prayers are hindered.

Many of men throughout the Bible have had encounters with God; whereas God will tell them, "Go and sin no more." In fact, let me recall for you the woman caught in adultery. Jesus told that woman, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." It is one thing to receive and accept God's forgiveness, but it is a whole different story to actually live your life in Christ, abiding in Him, bear fruit in Him, doing what He would have you do. You have isolated yourself from God when you did not do the things He has told you to do. Listen to this passage the Lord just gave me to share with you, "To keep you from the evil woman, From the flattering tongue of a seductress. Do not lust after her beauty in your heart, Nor let her allure you with her eyelids. For by means of a harlot A man is reduced to a crust of bread; And an adulteress will prey upon his precious life. Can a man take fire to his bosom, And his clothes not be burned? Can one walk on hot coals, And his feet not be seared? So is he who goes in to his neighbor’s wife; Whoever touches her shall not be innocent" (Proverbs 6:24-29)



pakmenu said:


> I somehow feel like a traitor starting something and then ending the relationship. + I don't want to hurt anyone. (ok i know it's hypocrite, because i already hurt many by doing it)


At least you have called it for what it is. You are a adulterer, a liar, a cheater, a hypocrite, a sinner! And I am a sinner too! But I say again to you, how shall we who died to sin, still live in it. "Walk by the Spirit, so you do not carry out the desires of your flesh" (Galatians 5:16).



pakmenu said:


> That message of God was a year ago, and i've spend a year secretly seeing my affair and enjoying a lot of intimacy with her.


That is a very sad account my dear friend. When you leave this earth, how will you be remembered? As an adulterer or as a child of God? What will man remember you for? I guarantee you that the message of repentance will slowly fade away from your life. With each act you commit, you harden your heart before the Holy Spirit. You are what the Bible says are, "searing your conscience." I hate to say this, but God will have nothing else to do with you UNTIL you repent! Make no mistake about it. God is only interested in those who want to follow after Him and serve Him. Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." In a way, you do not love Jesus rightly, because you are not keeping His commandments. Okay, I understand, you asked Him into your heart, just as much as you make a commitment before your wife at the alter. But you violated that commitment/oath when you broken the marriage vows; just as much as you broken God's commandments when you first committed adultery. This does not mean God cannot redeem you. Yes, God does leave the 99 sheep to go after the one sheep who has left on his own, BUT He will NOT force you to come back to be under the spout where the blessings come out. You cannot be grafted back into the fold, until you REPENT! And you cannot be for God on one side and for the world on the other side. God says that you need to be either all for Him or all against Him. If you are lukewarm, God says that He vomits you out. In the same matter, Jesus writes on the Sermon on the Mound, you cannot serve the things of the world and God at the same time. The reason being is because the two are against each other. You cannot be in the light, yet still play in the darkness...it doesn't work that way as a child of God. And if you think that you can play with fire and not get burned, you have a wake call coming to you really soon. Or you just might not wake up at all. It would be better if the Lord take you home, than for you to continue to live in sin secretly while your innocent wife is at home. You need to be there for your wife, despite whether she gives you sex or not. Love does not demand! Loves does not seek its own! You might verbally say you love your wife, but do you show it? We are to be doers of the Word, not hearers of it only. All the "I love yous" in the world means squat if you cannot back it up by your actions! Your actions and passions are spent in this adulterous relationship and you are entrapped by it, held captive, stuck in bondage.



pakmenu said:


> I shouldn't have, and i'm near the point now i think i can end it.


No, you are not near the end with those words! You have no power in and of yourself to stop that which you have started. Impossible! You cannot quite the trap that you have allowed yourself to step into. And if this one ends, you will replace it with another. We are told to make no provision for the flesh for its lusts! Okay, so a provision has been made and you find yourself living in a continual habitual unrepentive lifestyle. The only hope you have without a shadow of a doubt is "REPENTANCE!!!" God has already told you what to do! You are to STOP it! You will not be hearing anything else from God on any other subject or topic until you REPENT! A choice has been set before you...choose life or choose death! There will be no other direction, calling, guidance, conviction until you follow the word of the Lord to repent!



pakmenu said:


> I guess my problem is that the temptation is just too big and i can't help myself.


Yes, you are right! Call it for what it is...it is too big for you! But this is where God wants you. Philippians 4:13 tells you that you can do "all" things through Christ, who gives you the strength to. All does mean all! BUT, you MUST do it through Christ. You can pray, "God give me the power to do Thy will. I want Your way in my life. Decrease my desire and this stronghold that hoovers over me and give me the utmost desire to do Thy will. Create in me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from Your presence. Do not take Thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me, the joy of my salvation and renew a right spirit within me."

You must put off the deeds of the flesh and put on Christ. Again, you MUST act through prayer and submission to Christ to put to death this adulterous relationship you have been in. It starts with YOU! Again, God will NOT force you to get right with Him, nor will He speak to you audibly and through some grand revelation. Actually, let me back track for a moment. God has spoken to you, to me, to all of us in a grand revelation...its called the Bible. And everything therein has the way in which we ought to live life in Christ. So we say, "God, show me a sign and I will change and live for you." God would say, "Go read my Word to you. All the answers are there."



pakmenu said:


> In the bible it's happens many many times that the good guys are having secrets, and it's a command not to tell lies


King David is most famous for his sin with Bathsheba. The ramifications of his actions was the death of his son. What a price to pay. Samson's fooling around (fornicating) with someone who was not of his kind (I believe Delilah was a Philistine). The end result cost him his life. Lot's desire to move into Sodom to live in a wicked city cost him his wife. So what is it going to cost you pakmenu? Sin is only pleasurable for a season. What is it going to cost you? I promise you, the end result will NOT be worth every sexual encounter you had with the adulterous!



pakmenu said:


> but I remember no story where it's recommended action is to confess to the spouse.


This is called rationalization. Its a way of finding loopholes in the Scriptures and in the convictions you are feeling and experiencing. 1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Yes, you can confess with and towards your wife. In fact, this is the best confession you can make with regards to your actions. To confess to a close friend or pastor would be to diminish your wife. I have a close friend who came to me one day and confessed his adultery. The conviction was so strong, he knew he needed to share it with his wife. And so he did immediately and they had a great time of restoration and forgiveness and their marriage is stronger then ever.

Any and every marriage should be founded upon trust and commitment. And if you are a Christian, it should also be founded upon Jesus Christ. Once you leave a life in secret, you break one of the very cores that marriage was founded upon. The moment you committed adultery, you broke the marriage commitment to be faithful to your wife, until death do you part. Remember, God allows a clause to the party that has been cheated upon. Although, from stories I have heard over the years, usually when one spouse comes clean about an affair, the other spouse is usually forgiving. However, don't confuse forgiveness with weakness. There is only so much a person can take, while their heart is trampled upon.



pakmenu said:


> With my wife we often communicated 'indirectly' by praying to God, and so I could find out her true feelings, and she mine, without us talking directly to each other, and we'd dare say things we really mean, we wouldn't normally dare to say directly to each other.


Everything that is except this adulterous relationship you find yourself caught up in. Do not deceive yourself into thinking that what you are doing is okay and that God fully embraces you for your actions of disobedience. There is nothing good about sin! There is nothing good about you keeping this a secret from your wife. There are no amount of words that you can say to make your affair right. But you have the ability within you to deny yourself, and pick up your cross, and follow after Jesus once again...each and every day! Proverbs 3:5-6, "Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. But in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path."



pakmenu said:


> Wish you peace and forgiveness, and a restored relationship


And I wish you all the more in your life. We have one life and it will soon be past. What is done for Jesus Christ will last! Come back to the Lord in repentance, openness, exposure, and humility.

"Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent" (Revelation 2:4-5).

Another passage the Lord pressed upon me to share is Psalm 119:9-11, "How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word. With my whole heart I have sought You; Oh, let me not wander from Your commandments! Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You."


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## hartvalve

1st John (1:9) was actually written to correct the false teachings that had crept into the church perverting the truth of the good news gospel. 

Gnosticism. This group dispelled the validity of Jesus Christ and his atonement for the sins of mankind. 

The confessional text referred to, 1John1:9 was a rehearsal in the believer's hearing (and stated truth to the Gnostics) as reminder of truth concerning their forgiveness of sins by the blood of Jesus Christ. The Gnostic's false teachings brought in confusion as to the validity and the authority of Jesus Christ. John, the writer gave warning to the believer's to not waiver from their confession of truth concerning their righteous standing in God. 1 John 2:1-2, makes clear again the believer IS forgiven and remain forgiven. God wants us to remember that we indeed, stand forgiven at all times in him. And if any man sins we have an Advocate who stands between man and God, Jesus, as reminder, the work is finished and mankind is forgiven. One must of course believe and release their faith in these truths concerning God which pleases him. 

We have overcome the evil one by placing our faith in Christ Jesus and remain in right standing with God. Repent OP. You are forgiven. Never lose your confession. And if you have a trusted friend, and I do mean a trusted *spiritual *friend according to Galatians 6, who will NOT roll out the carpet on you for all the world to hear about.. First of all, get on your knees and thank God if you do and then allow yourself to become accountable to them. Tell them your story and allow them to keep tabs on you.  Not condone you, but someone who is able to bring whatever necessary correction needed to help bring full restoration. The word of God tells us to confess our sins one to another so healing can begin. Now, if your husband is really really spiritual, then by all means, confess your sin to him. You know him better than we do. My husband is NOT spiritual. When it comes to betrayal, most Christians react opposite of how the word of God commands us to. I am so glad God brought adjective to the text in Galatians 6. It reads-- Those believer's who ARE SPIRITUAL restore such a one. 

Trust me when I tell you the following, okay? I have counseled many many many fallen married folks. If truth be told, not one married person was able to stand clean in tests of adultery. Jesus raised the testing bar so high none could attain. Which is--The very thought *alone *of desiring anyone else outside of marriage in the mind of Jesus Christ is *adultery*. It takes Holy Spirit power and one who knows God and continue in their knowing him to give wise marriage counsel. 

I pray you well and healed.


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