# Need help with this (damned if you do / don't)



## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

I am posting this in its own thread here, because the other forum it was off topic and because, frankly, it's the single most frustrating thing I have had to deal with. 


*Originally Posted by Lyris 
How does your wife want to control it, OldGeezer?*


She wants me to ask her what to do and then do it, exclusive of my own opinions and anything else I read or find. 

If I read stuff, she starts in on me "why did I bother to go to school, and spend all these years learning, if your'e just going to ignore me and ..blah blah blah" 

And no matter what the topic or otherwise, this is how it goes. If she finds out about ANYTHING that's a problem or any issue, then she has to get her say, and if you don't follow her say, it's angry lashing out from her until you're so worn down you do it. And it's "you're not listening to me, you're shutting me out, nobody cares, I"m just a nobody, I"m stupid, why won't anyone listen, blah, blah blah" unless you follow her demands to the letter. 

It's all emotional blackmail to get her way. On the other hand, she's so demanding that I act and do things all the time to validate her feelings and make HER happy. But insists that nothing she can do should ever make me feel compelled or controlled. And goes into angry defiance if there's even a suggestion anything she does might anger or frustrate someone. It's the "you must make me happy, how dare you suggest my behavior makes you unhappy" mode.

Another part of this, is that she reads into anything I say, don't say, do, or don't do, anything she wants, and it's ALWAYS negative. So, her computer suddenly starts crashing. If I try to find and fix the problem, I get lashed out at in anger "what, you think I'm stupid and can't do fix things myself"? 

so, the next day when the same things happen, it's "You just sit there doing nothing, and I need to use this to get my stuff done, I'm so frustrated and YOU DON'T CARE." The "and YOU DON'T CARE!" gets thrown onto every complaint and frustration she has, no matter who or what, if anything, is the cause. 

She constantly creates situations where, no matter my action (or lack thereof), I'm instantly rebuked with her interpretation of my motives, which are, of course, always very, very bad. I'm damned if I do, and I'm damned if I don't, and I'm damned because I didn't know what to do, and I didn't know what to do because "you don't care".


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Do you care? Because I wouldn't. How long has this been going on? She sounds nuts.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Do you care? Because I wouldn't. How long has this been going on? She sounds nuts.



Uhhh, there's a lot of women do stuff like this. It's not all THAT uncommon.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Has this behavior always been present in the marriage?


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## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

oldgeezer said:


> Uhhh, there's a lot of women do stuff like this. It's not all THAT uncommon.


Ummmm.

I don't know about a lot of women, but my wife doesn't do this.
My daughter doesn't do this.
My mother doesn't do this.
My mother in law doesn't do this (even though I'm not her favourite person.

I think you will find that in actual fact a lot of women do not do this.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

827Aug said:


> Has this behavior always been present in the marriage?


August, I agree this is the key question. At issue is whether Geezer's W is experiencing a new change in recent years (as could be caused by hormone changes) or, rather, has behaved this way throughout the long marriage (as could be caused by moderate traits of a personality disorder). This is why, on 10/26, I asked:Geezer, when did your problems start with your wife? I ask because, after reading all of your threads, I am frustrated that you haven't told us whether these issues were there immediately after your marriage 25 years ago -- or, rather, started showing only 5 years ago. Another missing piece of information is whether you are confident that, despite all her controlling behavior, she truly does love you.​Unfortunately, Geezer never responded to my questions. Instead, he started additional threads.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Uptown said:


> August, I agree this is the key question. At issue is whether Geezer's W is experiencing a new change in recent years (as could be caused by hormone changes) or, rather, has behaved this way throughout the long marriage (as could be caused by moderate traits of a personality disorder). This is why, on 10/26, I asked:Geezer, when did your problems start with your wife? I ask because, after reading all of your threads, I am frustrated that you haven't told us whether these issues were there immediately after your marriage 25 years ago -- or, rather, started showing only 5 years ago. Another missing piece of information is whether you are confident that, despite all her controlling behavior, she truly does love you.​Unfortunately, Geezer never responded to my questions. Instead, he started additional threads.


I'm picking up on some passive aggressive vibes that he may have.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

She does this because (a) she gets away with it and (b) she gets her way when she does this.

Actions like this need to be called out immediately when they happen, and called out in a calm but firm tone. And if the actions continue, you stop paying attention until you are talked to in a respectful tone.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

827Aug said:


> Has this behavior always been present in the marriage?


No, it has not. 

Can I precisely stick a date to it? No. But I'd say it's an intermittent thing over say, not more than the last 10 years. It's been a LOT over the last 3. 

We all, to some degree, make judgments about the motives of other people, for instance. If I think someone I meet in business isn't on the up and up, I tend to just not do business with them and avoid getting entangled with them. 

It's just that I find it bewildering at times. She'll badger or pester one of the kids about something to the point they get frustrated and start yelling back or (when younger) start lashing out angrily, and then she'll be all butt-hurt and go lock herself in the bedroom and cry and "why do my kids hate me" or "everyone just freezes me out" kind of thing and so on. And then yell at me about whatever ending in the "and nobody cares" rant. 

It's almost like she's completely blind to the effect of what she's doing to them or me and then takes the "get off my back" kind of response as total rejection - and, of course, that gets taken out on me. She'll be nice to them, but I get to bear the brunt of her being angry about it. 

Here's a for instance... Over the weekend, she was on facebook chatting with me (she's working far away) and I needed to restart my computer (having trouble with windows updates failing) so she says "I'm going to do other things". So, I said "ok" and restarted my computer. 

And then decided to get on with my twice a day exercise of walking. My phone beeps 3 minutes later with questions and I say "I'll look that up when I get back". She gets all mad "Have you no intention of ever talking to me anymore?" 

I tried to explain she'd said she was going off to do things, so I took that time to go walk - then she didn't want to talk - angry at me. The problem is that she'd avoided me for 4 days previous to that, cutting off phone calls or texting or whatever with "I'm tired" or not answering or whatever. And did the same thing to me the next night. Not available. 

She's been the one not talking all week, but somehow I'm the bad guy for somehow taking her "I'm going to do other things" to mean she was going to do other stuff besides chat for a while. And she dreams up stuff about how I must "feel" or think about stuff without ever asking, and it's always bad. Always. And it's always her mostly just imagining what I think without any discussion of it, or asking me. 

I'm pretty certain there's something behind all this, I just can't put my finger on it. It's like watching some segment of a tv show or part of a movie, and going "What did I miss?" I don't get what her motivation is to assume bad motives on my part and then take it out on me, like it was concrete fact. 

It's true, we all act with certain presumptions, but don't assume them to be fact until it's confirmed or proven. By what mechanism or to what purpose does one assume the worst in motivations of someone else, always? Some people earn it, but they're cheaters, abusers, dishonest, etc. And that's not me.

I may not be very tuned in or perceptive - I'm very left brain - but certainly, I don't do things with malicious intent.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

WyshIknew said:


> Ummmm.
> 
> I don't know about a lot of women, but my wife doesn't do this.
> My daughter doesn't do this.
> ...


Pardon my imprecision in language. I didn't say few women don't do this... I've seen it happen before, though.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Your wife definitely needs to be evaluated by a mental health professional. There is something going on with her....and it could very well be out of her control.


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## diwali123 (Feb 17, 2012)

She sounds like she has borderline personality disorder, or at least a lot of the symptoms. She sounds maddening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

diwali123 said:


> She sounds like she has borderline personality disorder, or at least a lot of the symptoms. She sounds maddening.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maddening, yes. But, I spent some time reading up on BPD, and I kinda ruled that out. The characteristics don't fit. Most don't fit. There's just these certain spots in the way she deals with certain things that are maddening. She doesn't drive off friends, isn't self destructive with substances or physically, seems to be oblivious to what her behavior does to me, rather than being deliberate. She's never been "clingy", doesn't just 'flip' between nice and angry as a routine... Naw, I just don't see it in the multiple descriptions I read. Yes, we all have some level of the various characteristics, and seeing some small level of them on occaision doesn't make you that. 

And I end up thinking that nothing changes because I'm unable to convey to her what she's doing. 

The other thing here, is that this seems to be a lot of me not comprehending what it is she wants to say to me. She uses language in a way that leaves me baffled. What says says she means by something is rarely how it appears to me. I thought I was making headway on this, now I don't think so. 

Right now, and for the last couple of years, we have had immense stressors in our lives. And I know beyond a doubt that this causes people to have certain defense mechanisms. Some of those are coming to an end, finally, with the resolutions in sight. 

But somehow, I have to get beyond this point. My life, quite literally, may depend on it, as I have serious stress related health problems.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

827Aug said:


> Your wife definitely needs to be evaluated by a mental health professional. There is something going on with her....and it could very well be out of her control.


I'll consider that. And have. And may more in the future, too.

At this moment, I'm still trying to understand what she's doing. If I thought of her behavior as coming from someone who has almost no awareness of what their behavior does or provokes in other people, and sees no problem at all in what they do, then it sort of fits. 

Yet I think back over the years and have to say, that's not the her I know. Definitely not the her I married.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

What is your reaction to her rude and dogmatic behavior?

I firmly believe we teach others how to treat us. 

How bad would it need to get before you stood your ground and said "ENOUGH!"

She clearly has a lot of anger and resentments, 

Why do YOU think she is so unloving towards you? What's your gut feeling on the whys??


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## countrybumpkin (Nov 8, 2012)

I wish I could offer more help but it seems most of the answers have been posted. Your wife may have some mental issues going on with her. It may also be that over the past few years, she feels as though you do not truly understand/listen to her when she is speaking. Maybe she has picked up on the "I'll say whatever to get you to shut up" attitude. Some women...not all...will lash out this way in order to "test" their spouse. I've known a few women who have done this when they feel their husbands just don't really listen or care anymore. Does it end well? No indeed. But they don't know any better at the time. 

Maybe counseling or an evaluation by a mental health professional could help you narrow the problem down.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

waiwera said:


> What is your reaction to her rude and dogmatic behavior?
> 
> I firmly believe we teach others how to treat us.
> 
> ...


My reactions? I have probably been all over the map... from being angry to just trying to ignore it. 

Why do I think she's doing what she's doing? I'm not sure. There's possibilities from just taking out frustrations with life, to just being angry at me and taking everything out on me in punishment. My gut says... She's taking out all her disappointments in life on me, whether 'my' fault or hers. 

But again, this is not the person I know, or at least knew. She absolutely does not tolerate such things as a matter of principle in other people. Which is why I'm a little concerned why she seems to do it and either has no idea she's doing it, or just justifies it in her own mind. Either of those seem to be not in tune with her character.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

countrybumpkin said:


> I wish I could offer more help but it seems most of the answers have been posted. Your wife may have some mental issues going on with her. It may also be that over the past few years, she feels as though you do not truly understand/listen to her when she is speaking. Maybe she has picked up on the "I'll say whatever to get you to shut up" attitude. Some women...not all...will lash out this way in order to "test" their spouse. I've known a few women who have done this when they feel their husbands just don't really listen or care anymore. Does it end well? No indeed. But they don't know any better at the time.
> 
> Maybe counseling or an evaluation by a mental health professional could help you narrow the problem down.


If this is "testing" then we're done. It's dishonest, if you ask me, completely and utterly beyond any boundary of a civil person.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I think to begin with, you need to start setting firm, consistent boundaries around yourself so that you no longer accept or tolerate her disrespectful and unreasonable behaviour.

Conrad and MEM have lots of good advice about boundaries. Try asking Ian the men's clubhouse or the private members section.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

Lyris said:


> I think to begin with, you need to start setting firm, consistent boundaries around yourself so that you no longer accept or tolerate her disrespectful and unreasonable behaviour.
> 
> Conrad and MEM have lots of good advice about boundaries. Try asking Ian the men's clubhouse or the private members section.


Seems sensible. Now to try to unlearn certain reactions and learn to make others... 

I guess this is going to get a little hairy, because I know right where this one leads.


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## MuleM (Nov 13, 2012)

It sounds to me like she doesn't believe that you like, love, or respect her anymore. The tone of your post (fairly or not) sounds scornful and dismissive of her, to me. As much as you might try to hide it, that kind of thing comes out in little ways every day and she probably senses it all the time. Just an opinion, but I'd suggest doing your best to treat her with as much tenderness as you possibly can over the next month or so and see if it makes a difference. Do little things to show you're paying attention and you love her--especially things that she doesn't even ask you to do. (And keep doing it no matter what her reaction is.) You might have to swallow your pride a LOT, but if you can convince her of how valued and important she is to you, it may make an immense difference in how she responds to you too... Good luck.


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## oldgeezer (Sep 8, 2012)

I think I've figured it out. I don't make enough money. And I can't. She is the one we've scrimped and scraped these last few years to get her Master's (and more) and once she finishes her next one, she'll start a new career, guaranteed to be into 6 figures. 

So, I guess there's really no hope. 

I've been pondering stuff I've read here for a long time and suddenly it clicks.. I simply could not grasp the "entitlement to control" attitude she's had for a while... And I suddenly "get it". When she's not earning an income ( due to injury or other reasons ), we get along quite well. And the moment she is... It's right back to the same thing. 

"I make the money, I deserve to control everything", including me, the kids... It all fits now. It even fits with a number of things she's said that just baffled me in the past. The reason why she has no boundaries with me and the kids, but interacts quite normally with her friends and everyone else, long term or short... and acts entitled to have me submit to her every whim.

Well, the submitting has ended (she doesn't know it yet, she'll be back home in 2 weeks from her far distant job for surgery and 4 to 12 months of healing, therapy, etc) and I'm sure it'll be war. Since I know this, I'm quite certain that eventually I'm going to get her to say it. And then we'll see if her sense of entitlement wins over her character, once she realizes what's driving her behavior. I've never said anywhere here, even though some have assumed so, that I consider her anything dumb or ill intended. And I don't think she's ever even consciously made a decision to say to herself "Hey, I earn money, that makes me the one entitled to control everyone". And she may not be able to made to see it, either. I understand how we are our own worst blind spot. We can see plainly in others what we don't see in ourselves. 

If she's going to go because of that, then it's out of my hands. But I don't have to be the doormat in the mean time. Yes, there are other issues, but I think I now understand it to a significant degree. I am not sure why it took this long, but hey, I may be late to the party, but I'm darn reliable about getting there.


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