# Love or Codependency?...



## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

There was another post here which brought up a question in my mind and I wanted the boards opinions and thoughts.

When someone has wants or needs that need to be met to feel loved by someone else in a relationship or in marriage, is that love or is that codependency? Is it healthy or unhealthy to have needs that need to be met to feel a certain way? I've read enough to know there is more than one school of thought about this, and I'm curious as to posters views here.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It depends on what the needs are and if they are reasonable and healthy.

If my partner "needs" me to terminate my (reasonable, normal, same sex) friendships and spend all of my time with only him in order to "feel loved", then that's a toxic need.

If my partner "needs" me to not get a separate blanket even though he pulls the covers off me every night and I freeze and I'm not getting sleep, that's a toxic need.

If my partner needs me to do/not do things that harm me in order to feel loved, that's not love, that's him wanting me to enable his unhealthy "needs". If I do so because I can't stand up for my reasonable, healthy rights, then I'm enabling toxic behavior and playing my part in codependency.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Everyone knows my view on this. But I just want to say in an ideal world where we are all well adjusted and didn’t have traumatic experiences it’s one thing, 

Tell someone who has been molested to fix themselves. Someone who has anxiety and depression to cure themselves. Tell someone who has been cheated on not to have trust issues. The reality is, we sometimes need things from our partner to feel secure.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Imagine you go into a restaurant. They have several dishes there you enjoy, you like the atmosphere, the service is great. You love the place. Because it is giving you something you need - food - in ways that you enjoy. You tip well, compliment the staff, behave well when you're there, and encourage others to patronize the place. Because you're happy to give them something they need in return and participate in a healthy partnership for success. 

Now, imagine you go into a restaurant. There's nothing on the menu you really like, but there's at least one dish you're kinda okay with, the atmosphere is dismal and the service is terrible. You don't really like the place. It's giving you food, which you do need, but not in ways that you enjoy. But, instead of leaving and never returning, you stay and even keep coming back, again and again. You keep "hoping things change". You keep nagging the front-of-house staff to do better, keep suggesting to the manager all manner of things they could do to improve the atmosphere, keep going back to the kitchen to fuss at them and give them better recipes. Nothing ever changes, for whatever reason or no reason at all. That restaurant is just not going to do it for you. But you never either stop complaining and being unhappy, or stop coming back for more. Because some part of you is getting some type of emotional payoff from your own martyrdom, and that just wouldn't be there if you left and found another restaurant that suited you better. 

The first is love, the second is...not. 

So, no, I don't think that having needs in a relationship is automatically co-dependence. I think it becomes co-dependent when you stick around for a relationship that's not really meeting your needs in exchange for a dysfunctional emotional payoff. It's co-dependent to partner up with someone who can't or won't, for whatever reason, meet your needs and then cling to that relationship like grim death. Because some part of you needs that dysfunction, can't be happy with letting go and moving on, can't or won't just _stop_ and go find something healthier.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> Tell someone who has been molested to fix themselves. Someone who has anxiety and depression to cure themselves. Tell someone who has been cheated on not to have trust issues. The reality is, we sometimes need things from our partner to feel secure.


Well, in truth, no one else can fix you. They can only provide a space for you to not feel further threatened. The fixing _you _is your job.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Girl_power said:


> Everyone knows my view on this. But I just want to say in an ideal world where we are all well adjusted and didn’t have traumatic experiences it’s one thing,
> 
> Tell someone who has been molested to fix themselves. Someone who has anxiety and depression to cure themselves. Tell someone who has been cheated on not to have trust issues. The reality is, we sometimes need things from our partner to feel secure.


Right, and those are the needs I'm talking about. Is it only in the genuine intention behind giving one what they "need" that make it love versus codependency?


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Interdependence is healthy. We were created to be in relationship with one another - as families and societies.

To be dependent is not a bad thing. However, we're all flawed people, so we twist that intrinsic need, and we hurt and harm each other - whether intentionally or not.

Having basic human needs is not codependent - the need to be seen and heard and valued and appreciated. We're wired for these - and need them from birth to be healthy individuals.

From Elllis Potter (an apologist), *It is a widespread principle that we should not marry someone if we need them. We should be independent and self-sufficient. This results in people not valuing each other and coming to despise each other after the fun wears out.*

Modern relationships are a mess, and I'd take a guess that our current state began around the industrial revolution. That period introduced dating and advertising and materialism, which created systems of artificial wants. And, in an extremely short period of time, we've even gotten to the point of denying gender as an absolute. So basically, using science when it suits, and tossing it out when it doesn't.

Our connections are meant to be fulfilling. But today, the majority of folks are so extremely self-centered, nothing seems to satisfy. And I think our expectations are completely out of whack.

Today's world is much more about taking than giving. And as much as we go on about tolerance, we're getting more and more intolerant of just about anything that doesn't fall in line with each individual’s self-made existence. We seem to be striving toward sterile lives, where we don't have to be bothered.

Being together with others requires sacrifice and work. Few people want to hear that anymore.

We're constantly bombared with information that says relationships should be easy and effortless. And on my facebook feed, I get memes about dumping people on a daily basis. And, of course, on this site, people encourage divorce at the drop of a hat. Anything that's uncomfortable. Anything that's negative. It's just absurd.

We're not machines.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Livvie said:


> It depends on what the needs are and if they are reasonable and healthy.
> 
> If my partner "needs" me to terminate my (reasonable, normal, same sex) friendships and spend all of my time with only him in order to "feel loved", then that's a toxic need.
> 
> ...


Best answer!
I've always believed and think it's best to like, a d allow ones self to fully appreciate, love,and enjoy a spouse or SO, but to throw the needs or must have feeling out there puts too much of ones happiness quotient dependent on another person, no matter who.

It also puts harmful pressure on the other, and how does that help anyone?


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I think it boils down to needs versus wants. I don't "need" someone to complete me, make me feel good about myself, share my political or spiritual views, etc. Do I "want" particular things in a partner? Yes. And therein lies the difference. Needs = needy. Wants = my boundaries, what I will and will not accept.

At least that's how I operate.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Cletus said:


> Well, in truth, no one else can fix you. They can only provide a space for you to not feel further threatened. The fixing _you _is your job.


When you experience a trauma, you divide things in terms of time... before and after. If that makes sense. You are never the same person after the trauma. You change, your different. People try to “fix” themselves to be what they were before that event happened but it’s not possible. People should accept the new them, and start to like themselves again. 

My point is, there is no fixing who are you sometimes. People have anxiety... it’s who they are; they are anxious people. People have ocd or whatever. We need to love who we are and stop trying to “fix” us.


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## Girl_power (Aug 11, 2018)

Prodigal said:


> I think it boils down to needs versus wants. I don't "need" someone to complete me, make me feel good about myself, share my political or spiritual views, etc. Do I "want" particular things in a partner? Yes. And therein lies the difference. Needs = needy. Wants = my boundaries, what I will and will not accept.
> 
> At least that's how I operate.


My thing is I am completely fine alone and I am independent. But when I am in a relationship, there are things and behaviors that are not good for me, things I am sensitive to and that make me feel bad or unloved or insecure.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I doubt many get to adulthood without at least some FOO issues. I certainly have my share. The trick is not to let my issues impact my relationships and I try hard to see that doesn’t happen. I never felt it was my husband’s responsibility to make me feel whole.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Girl_power said:


> My thing is I am completely fine alone and I am independent. But when I am in a relationship, there are things and behaviors that are not good for me, things I am sensitive to and that make me feel bad or unloved or insecure.


Perhaps you should take a break from relationships. From what you are saying, it doesn't sound like relationships are fostering healthy growth. JMO.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Girl_power said:


> When you experience a trauma, you divide things in terms of time... before and after. If that makes sense. You are never the same person after the trauma. You change, your different. People try to “fix” themselves to be what they were before that event happened but it’s not possible. People should accept the new them, and start to like themselves again.
> 
> My point is, there is no fixing who are you sometimes. People have anxiety... it’s who they are; they are anxious people. People have ocd or whatever. We need to love who we are and stop trying to “fix” us.


There's fixing, and acceptance which are two different things but at times intersect to support one's happiness and appreciation of sense of self. That also extends to others, and applies to relationships. 

A good thing to remember is one person's feeling of something needing fixed is another's sense of that (subject) is normal.

Mostly two differing opinions don't have to mean one is wrong/right.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

Prodigal said:


> Perhaps you should take a break from relationships. From what you are saying, it doesn't sound like relationships are fostering healthy growth. JMO.


Right, that kind of goes back to that "harmful pressure" that @Ragnar Ragnasson was talking about. Where there is that harmful pressure, you find things like controlling behavior, which is never good and never healthy.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

When I think of codependency, I think of the following example.

From 2005 to 2008, I worked at a call center with a woman. I was single for most of my time there and she had a boyfriend. I was her affair of sorts. She left him to be with me and then left me to be with him again. However, lets get to the meat of this. The boyfriend was on the spectrum and was controlling/verbally abusive. He was very quick to anger.

Her on the other hand was very insecure due to a few things. First, she was abnormally tall... 6'1 and about 280 lbs. Second, while growing up her mother had left her in motel rooms while she did drug deals and other nefarious activities. Therefore, she had some serious issues with being alone. She stayed with him because he would never leave her. Conversely, he was monumentally insecure due to his being on the spectrum and being quite short/scrawny (5'5 and 140 lbs). He knew that he faced an uphill battle finding another partner due to these issues. Let her go and he might be alone for a very long time.

They fought like few other couples I have ever seen. So why did they last 9 years... They were codependent on each other. She did not want to be alone and he did not want to have to go looking. Also, she had quite the alcohol/marijuana habit and he not only was ok with it but helped her acquire said items.

As for the end of the story, I moved on and they broke up in 2013 when it was found out that she had slept with other men while they were separated. His insecurity and rage went to a new level but luckily she was prepared and was able to flee the scene.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hubbyintrubby said:


> There was another post here which brought up a question in my mind and I wanted the boards opinions and thoughts.
> 
> When someone has wants or needs that need to be met to feel loved by someone else in a relationship or in marriage, is that love or is that codependency? Is it healthy or unhealthy to have needs that need to be met to feel a certain way? I've read enough to know there is more than one school of thought about this, and I'm curious as to posters views here.


There is a huge difference between love and codependency. 

Codependents lose their sense of self, the control over the happiness of the individual is outside of themselves. How can you possibly be happy if you have no control over your own joy? When your self esteem and self worth come from outside yourself, this is codependent behavior. The dependent is constantly looking for validation of their worth from someone else... but veil them as “proof of love”, and there is never enough proof to fill the void. 

Obviously love means different things to different people, but codependency is not love, it’s a mental health issue.


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## hubbyintrubby (Jul 5, 2019)

QuietRiot said:


> There is a huge difference between love and codependency.
> 
> Codependents lose their sense of self, the control over the happiness of the individual is outside of themselves. How can you possibly be happy if you have no control over your own joy? When your self esteem and self worth come from outside yourself, this is codependent behavior. The dependent is constantly looking for validation of their worth from someone else... but veil them as “proof of love”, and there is never enough proof to fill the void.
> 
> Obviously love means different things to different people, but codependency is not love, it’s a mental health issue.


So when one says...."I need you to x, so I can feel y"....is that codependency, or is x done out of love?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Girl_power said:


> My point is, there is no fixing who are you sometimes. People have anxiety... it’s who they are; they are anxious people. People have ocd or whatever. We need to love who we are and stop trying to “fix” us.


When you said ...



Girl_power said:


> Tell someone who has been molested to fix themselves. Someone who has anxiety and depression to cure themselves. Tell someone who has been cheated on not to have trust issues. The reality is, we sometimes need things from our partner to feel secure.


... I thought this implied that 1) fixing "themselves" was a goal and 2) that it required an other to achieve - and in the context of this conversation, that other would be a spouse or boy/girlfriend.

Anyone who does not care to consider fixing their issues is OK by me - their issues, their choice. I would not try to fix you - I assumed you were trying to fix yourself. Which is the only way that works. If the "things we need from our partner" is acceptance, that's OK, but depending on the problem, it might be a tough ask. Requiring your partner to be physically uncomfortable during sleep to salve your anxieties was for most of us a bridge too far.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hubbyintrubby said:


> So when one says...."I need you to x, so I can feel y"....is that codependency, or is x done out of love?


Here is the difference... you have the ability to say no, and feel respected and understood or you have the ability to say yes without that answer coming as a physical or emotional deficit to yourself.

Not all unhealthy relationships are codependent, this is a different level of dysfunction. 

Codependent personalities have a preoccupation with the others emotions, needs and moods, they have poor boundaries for themselves and violate their partners boundaries, react emotionally and often, poor communication because they aren’t in touch with what they actually feel and need, controlling because they feel out of control within themselves. 

Can you or your partner say “no” to a request and not get eviscerated for it? Are you saying yes at a cost to your own needs? Can you make a request for your own needs without feeling bad or being made to feel bad no matter the answer?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

hubbyintrubby said:


> So when one says...."I need you to x, so I can feel y"....is that codependency, or is x done out of love?


Also add to this, the inability to compromise. You doing this or not doing that means you do not love me, is codependent... 

Healthy relationships have boundaries, physical and emotional, they have open and unemotional communication through problems, they have mutual trust and respect for boundaries, and they have the ability to compromise. It doesn’t matter the request it’s how it’s handled. Healthy relationships have a cycle of contentment and comfort, codependent cycles are filled with volatile emotions and dissatisfaction and re-bonding only to begin again. 

***also I’m not trying to come off as holier than thou all knowing, I grew up with codependent parents, I have had many codependent friendships, one early relationship. I went through years of counseling to break these cycles. My failed marriage is not codependent, it’s just highly dysfunctional, but it wasn’t always so.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Girl_power said:


> Everyone knows my view on this. But I just want to say in an ideal world where we are all well adjusted and didn’t have traumatic experiences it’s one thing,
> 
> Tell someone who has been molested to fix themselves. Someone who has anxiety and depression to cure themselves. Tell someone who has been cheated on not to have trust issues. The reality is, we sometimes need things from our partner to feel secure.


I would never tell someone to cure themselves, but I would tell them to see a professional and get help. 

It really should not be the job of the partner, in my opinion. It's above their pay grade and it's many times asking them to put up with something they would rather not. 

I don't think codependency is healthy. I think it's a way to feel trapped in a relationship.


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## TXTrini (Oct 2, 2013)

hubbyintrubby said:


> There was another post here which brought up a question in my mind and I wanted the boards opinions and thoughts.
> 
> When someone has wants or needs that need to be met to feel loved by someone else in a relationship or in marriage, is that love or is that codependency? Is it healthy or unhealthy to have needs that need to be met to feel a certain way? I've read enough to know there is more than one school of thought about this, and I'm curious as to posters views here.


Man, this is such a subjective question/answer! Having recently exited a marriage that started with two people so in love they waited years and crossed oceans to merge lives, becoming apathetic and ending with cheating and heartbreak, this question opened up a crap ton of other questions!

How well do you know yourself and what you need to feel loved?
Why did you get together in the first place? Isn't part of wanting to be with someone is because they make us feel loved?
How does one go from feeling loved to not feeling loved? What changed? Did you grow apart because of changing wants/needs?
Why doesn't the other person realize they've stopped meeting them? Is there a breakdown in communication, are you not meeting theirs needs, or do they just not care anymore?

I honestly don't have a good answer, besides, it depends on the answers to the questions that came to mind above. I'm in a new relationship, and I can't help but notice the difference in me, as a 40+ compared to me at 20. My wants have remained basically the same, but my needs have changed.

Maybe that's why so many people feel they've suffered a bait and switch for something or the other? I know with time, I became more dependent on my husband. I thought we were a team and shifted my behavior. Is that codependency?



minimalME said:


> Interdependence is healthy. We were created to be in relationship with one another - as families and societies.
> 
> To be dependent is not a bad thing. However, we're all flawed people, so we twist that intrinsic need, and we hurt and harm each other - whether intentionally or not.
> 
> ...


You so elegantly describe our lackluster modern existence, I want to like this post a million times!

Love always requires sacrifice and compromise, no matter what kind it is - familial or romantic. I think materialism and convenience have accustomed us to ease and that's corrupted our views on relationships. I'll scratch your back, but only if you scratch mine a particular way, whenever I want it, and not just because I know you like it.

When I love someone, I WANT to ease their burdens, I want to do things for them because I like knowing they're happy and content. Is it co-dependent for me to want someone to feel that way about me without me having to ask for it?

Sometimes I think I was born in the wrong century, maybe I'm just a dreamer.[/QUOTE]


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

I believe the love you feel for someone comes from within yourself. I don't believe it is a third party entity created because you met this person. Love is contingent upon having love in you. I don't believe someone can make you love them. You have enough love in you to love someone or you don't.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

hubbyintrubby said:


> So when one says...."I need you to x, so I can feel y"....is that codependency, or is x done out of love?


Depends. If you can say no and go about your day together as a couple normally, that's love. If you feel you can't say no for fear of being "punished", that's co dependent.

We all have needs/wants in a relationship. Nothing wrong with expressing those needs to your partner. Having and meeting needs is all part and parcel of a relationship. Expecting your partner to meet and fulfil all of those needs is not reasonable or fair. Likewise, if you or your partner has to have a boundary violated in order to meet a need of the other, that is co dependent and toxic.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

hubbyintrubby said:


> So when one says...."I need you to x, so I can feel y"....is that codependency, or is x done out of love?


Codependency. "I need you to take out the trash so I can feel you are a partner in our relationship." Just an example, mind you. But if I fill in the "x" with anything I need you to do in order to feel me to feel "y" then I'm screwed. Hell, I don't need anyone at anytime or any place to do squat for me to feel anything. I own my feelings. What other people do, or don't do, isn't a qualifier for how I choose to feel.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

hubbyintrubby said:


> So when one says...."I need you to x, so I can feel y"....is that codependency, or is x done out of love?


@hubbyintrubby I am so glad you are asking this question, because to me it indicates you are aware there is a difference (between needs and codependency), and you're trying to figure it out so you can envision it. 

First, I like to use a visual. Codependency is two trees next to each other, both leaning over, their roots are all tangled up together, their branches are all tangled up together, and if you removed one tree, the other would die too. That's unhealthy. Interdependency (healthier love) is two trees next to each other, each with their own root systems but some roots touch...each with their own branches but some branches touch..and if you removed one tree, the other might miss it but it would be able to survive. That's healthy. 

Next, to answer your exact question, I think what you're asking is "What is controlling and codependency...and what is love and healthy relationship?" Right? In my understanding it has to do with self awareness, self definition, and respectful requests. 

See...in real life it is wise to know yourself enough to know that you prosper and grow as a human if you have X and do not have Y, and in a relationship it is wise to let the significant person know that honestly. Likewise, it is also wise for the significant person to open up and let you know that they prosper if they have X and do not have Y also! Right? That's "self awareness." I know for a fact that I prosper with a calm, rational, spiritual man, and do not do well with a loud, emotional, atheist type of man. In a nutshell, yelling and name calling and cursing (that kind of behavior) is a love KILLER for me. So I am not telling people not to do X, Y or Z--they can if they want! But I just know me well enough to know that will not be good for me.

The self-definition part, in my opinion, is the part where you KNOW yourself and thus you define your boundaries. Boundaries ARE NOT a list of what another person can and can not do. Rather, boundaries are a fence you put around yourself because you know yourself, and you say "Here is what I will and will not accept to open the gate to my fence and allow access to me." I don't let everyone and their mother see me vulnerable, but their are a few select people I DO let see me vulnerable, and that's because I have discussed my boundaries with them, and they with me, and we have agreed to abide by each others' boundaries voluntarily. So my beloved hubby, @Emerging Buddhist has simple boundaries "With all senses, no lying, cheating or stealing." Obviously it's deeper than that, and yet that is a very good way of summarizing it: he will not allow a person to enjoy the beauty of HIM if they lie to him, cheat in any way, or steal what isn't theirs. I love him, and that is the kind of person I am, so I agree to that. Make sense? He's not forcing me--I volunteer because those are values with which I agree. So see how that isn't controlling me? I * could * lie, cheat or steal if that is the person I wanted to be (or chose to be), but I also know that the cost of that choice would be losing him.

Finally, there's the respectful request part. We are all human beings, and we don't do things perfectly...maybe we aren't emotionally healthy but we're working on it, right? Well, codependency would be "I'm not feeling good about myself so I'm going to manipulate another person to force them to do something so I feel better about myself." One person is a leaning tree (leaning on the other to "make them feel better") and the other person is a leaning tree being abusively forced. Well a healthy way of coping with these moments, where one needs something is usually first to look to your own self and see what you can do to soothe your own self. In other words, if you don't feel good about yourself or need reassurance, what can you do to reassure your own self? After you've looked to your own self, it might be reasonable to share with your significant one, "Hey I'm having a bit of an insecure day. Could I make a respectful request? Would you saying out loud one thing about me that you find attractive? It would help me shore up my own self-esteem." Part of a respectful request is ASKING. Another part is sharing yourself. And another part is giving them the right to say "NO" to your request. If they aren't allowed to say "no" then you are indeed controlling them and it is a DEMAND. The way I understand it, if one person makes a respectful request, try to say "yes" if you can, but if you honestly can't then the response would be what you CAN do or what you are willing to do. For example, if the request above felt too "putting me on the spot" you could respond "I would be happy to share with you something about you that I like, but I feel a little put on the spot. Can I have half an hour to think about it and then write you a little letter?" 

In conclusion, we all have needs. I need words of affirmation to feel loved, and do not at all need acts of service. You maybe need physical touch. The balance between codependency and healthy relationship is that in codependency the love language would be demanded and via manipulation the other would be forced (like using guilt or playing victim)...and in a healthy relationship the other person would respond with the love language out of their own volution due to loving. Make sense?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

"When someone has wants or needs that need to be met to feel loved by someone else in a relationship or in marriage.....

that's why we get into relationship - to have certain needs met. Otherwise is just living next to each other. That's why there are books like "Five languages of love" that tells us how to meet our partner's needs, how to make them feel loved. 

You should stand on your feet and be independent person, with your own life, but you still need this other person to show you that they care. When they do not care, we encourage them to split, right?


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