# Struggling with recovery



## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Posting in infidelity and men’s clubhouse.

Quick background for those who don’t know me. Married 16 years. Wife was diagnosed with Fibro and Chronic Fatigue 2+ years ago. I stepped it up around the house and with the kids while she had nothing but time. Her time lead to reconnecting to old male friends on Facebook – and then making new male friends through Myspace and other places. Multiple EAs and a year-long separation are finally over. She moved back home in December. Things have been OK, but not great. Has been hard to reconnect. I still struggle with anger / resentment.

When she first moved home she was very open about things. If I asked her what she was doing on her laptop, she would show me. She’s given me no reason since coming home to be suspicious.

Something has changed. Starting about 2 weeks ago, she is no longer as forthcoming. If I ask what she’s doing on the computer for an hour she now get’s angry. Last night I noticed that she had put a password on her laptop.

She claims that I’m becoming controlling and that I’m looking too hard for proof of some EA or whatever that isn’t there. I say that there is no good reason for her to be hiding things from me – that it will only make the situation worse and won’t teach me any lesson or help me to move on.

I truly don’t believe that anything is going on. But her returning to old patterns – too much time on the laptop – brings back some very negative feelings.

Was looking at info in 180s recently – wondering if this might help. Lost my temper over the weekend and was very angry – which I know just isn’t productive.

Looking for advice – do I push for her to be open again and insist that if I’m no over it, then its just not over? Or do I do a 180? Just let her do her thing – don’t pursue - and focus on myself?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

It's her job to make you trust her.

Insist on the openness.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

This is where I struggle with consequences for crossing a boundary.

I don't think she's cheating - but she's still overstepped a boundary.

I can "insist" all day long and it goes nowhere.

What is a reasonable way to deal with this?

That's why I was thinking a 180 - some detachment.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

If you were to judge, what is your relationship's 'thermostat' currently set at?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

To be honest, I skipped that thread!

She's been using most of her energy to help her parents over the last few weeks. They have a small business - and her mom had surgery - so she's taking her mom to apointments and working in the family "office." With Fibro and Chronic Fatigue, this means she then goes home and goes to bed.

Then she's been sick for the last week.

Last night she's complaining that we havne't had sex - which seems to be her idea of foreplay (complaining). My response was that she's either sick or sleeping and that SHE'S not shown any interest in ME during this time.

Sex has been irregular (once every one to two weeks) since she's returned. Although I'm having fatigue and libido issues, I've initiated just as much as her. And I've been more seductive and creative about it - while she thinks its enough to just flash me and I should go wild - or she'll just complain about how I'm ignoring her.

So - where's the thermostat set then?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> To be honest, I skipped that thread!
> 
> She's been using most of her energy to help her parents over the last few weeks. They have a small business - and her mom had surgery - so she's taking her mom to apointments and working in the family "office." With Fibro and Chronic Fatigue, this means she then goes home and goes to bed.
> 
> ...


Sex once every week or two?

On a scale of 1-5, I'd say thermostat is around 1.

BTW - I love your sense of humor

(Her idea of foreplay...)


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Maybe you ARE more controlling. When a spouse winds up filling a role of parent and caretaker, that's a fairly typical thing to occur.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

So - do I try to crank the thermostat up?

My instincts now tell me that when my wife is acting "difficult" that its best to just walk away and go about my business. Not "turn up the heat."

Dog - I haven't demanded passwords as is usually suggested around here. I've had access to her phone, but haven't looked at it once. I have no desire to turn my marriage into a police state.

I just ask her what she's doing when she's spending more than an hour or so on the laptop. And up until now, for the last several months, she's gladly shown me.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Are you, or is your dynamic ever upbeat, playful, challenging?

If not, I would recommend trying to turn up the heat. Can't shake the notion that she is looking for something 'exciting'.

So, if you offer up 'exciting' or different, and she then consistently makes a face or rejects you, then turn things way down ... which it seems clear she doesn't like.

Is she just emotionally lazy? I mean I get the fibro thing, but is she ever bubbly, upbeat, happy, spastic?

Get the sense that while I really dig your sense of humor, that you are relatively sedate in your demeanor. This isn't bad ... unless it's contributing to your relationship's stagnation.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Are you, or is your dynamic ever upbeat, playful, challenging?
> 
> If not, I would recommend trying to turn up the heat. Can't shake the notion that she is looking for something 'exciting'.
> 
> ...


I am sedate - unless I'm angry. It may not always serve me well.

I think calling her emotionally lazy is fair at this point. And its hard to turn up the heat when she's sick and sleeping so much.

Turning up the heat or excitement following her locking the PC, it seems like I'm rewarding the wrong type of behavior...


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I think you should insist that she doesn't step backwards into old behaviors. Who cares if it's not a monumental boundary crossing? It's one of the small boundaries she crossed before having an emotional affair.

I'd also put out there that maybe she's doing it in order to push your buttons. She knows doing things that remind you of the past will make you upset.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

nice777guy said:


> Turning up the heat or excitement following her locking the PC, it seems like I'm rewarding the wrong type of behavior...


I agree. Guess I was thinking ahead of what is currently happening.

I agree with Trenton. Challenge her. She _shouldn't_ be comfortable. Comfortable means making her unhappiness your fault. Which is and always should be ... bullsh!t.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> This is where I struggle with consequences for crossing a boundary.
> 
> I don't think she's cheating - but she's still overstepped a boundary.
> 
> ...


NG, you’ve hit the nail on the head re boundaries and consequences. She hasn’t respected a boundary, but what can you do?

Me, I just couldn’t tolerate my wife not respecting my boundaries as it demonstrated a lack of respect for me. So my marriage was over and done with and it’s stayed that way. I haven’t for one second regretted enforcing my boundaries but the only way that was to be done was to end my marriage as I could see with past experience my wife would forever trash them. Maybe that’s where you’re at now.

I think it’s like what a few here say. In that you have to be prepared to end the marriage before it will improve. So in a sad way it could be time for you to now issue ultimatums. Either your wife respects your boundaries, and therefore the person you are, or the marriage is over.

If you do issue the ultimatum, the way your wife responds will tell you the truth of how she really thinks about you.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

The whole "you should unlock it" - "you should get over it" conversation can last a long time.

I've "insisted" already.

I'm not ready to make threats about ending the marriage.

And yes - Trenton - for whatever reason she's decided to push my buttons.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> The whole "you should unlock it" - "you should get over it" conversation can last a long time.
> 
> I've "insisted" already.
> 
> ...


It's not a threat NG. It is a promise to end the marriage if she doesn't respect your boundaries. There is a whole world of difference. Obviously it hasn't got too bad for you. If it had, believe me you'd make that promise. It's the unbearable pain that does it, I hope you never get there.

Why not try and enforce your boundaries with humour or forfeits?

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

AFEH said:


> Why not try and enforce your boundaries with humour or forfeits?
> 
> Bob


???? :scratchhead:


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I'm totally projecting here so forgive me in advance if I'm way off the mark. If I push buttons, and I'm a frequent button pusher (working on it, working on it), I push buttons because I'm desperate for a reaction. I do it to create excitement. I know this might not make sense but I think your wife might be begging you to give her some excitement, break from the mundane, basic unadulterated passion.

When I push buttons, the one behavior that will have me push more buttons is a lack of response.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I long for a world where people say what they mean and mean what they say.

If you want attention you say "let's spend more time together" - and not "I'VE LOCKED THE LAPTOP AND WHAT I DO ISN'T YOUR BUSINESS!"

I have a dream...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

That's why I referred the thermostat piece in the first place. 

Do you have a laptop or a smart-phone? If so, sit down, lay down, or get next to her and tell her you love this social media thing. Ask her if she is aware that you can look for masturbation buddies online at Craig's List. (Don't ask me how I know this, a friend insisted I look at it one time ... I swear)

Get edgy. Make it more about teasing, and laughing if/when she gets pi$$ed off.

I don't think you should leave her alone ... but I don't think you should reward her.

Gotta ask, have you come to terms with the fact that you are just about ALWAYS going to have to be the one in this relationship that makes ANYTHING happen?

That's a steep hill. Despite all of the little connections my ex and I have ... this one fact is probably the most likely for why we would be unable to reconcile. _She's not willing to WORK at making things better._ She just wants them to 'be' there.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I long for a world where people say what they mean and mean what they say.
> 
> If you want attention you say "let's spend more time together" - and not "I'VE LOCKED THE LAPTOP AND WHAT I DO ISN'T YOUR BUSINESS!"
> 
> I have a dream...


It's a great dream but I'm guessing that your wife doesn't recognize what she wants and so has no way to vocalize it in a meaningful way -or- she needs the excitement of provoking you into action. It may make her feel more loved or attractive and help with her feelings of self insecurities and insecurities in the relationship.

Why does it do this for her? She feels empowered by the idea that she can move you, it makes her feel genuinely connected to you; whereas, if she has to send you a memo that outlines what she wants to get a response, your response would be more cerebral than emotional.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo said:


> That's why I referred the thermostat piece in the first place.
> 
> Do you have a laptop or a smart-phone? If so, sit down, lay down, or get next to her and tell her you love this social media thing. Ask her if she is aware that you can look for masturbation buddies online at Craig's List. (Don't ask me how I know this, a friend insisted I look at it one time ... I swear)
> 
> ...


There have been some improvements. She has found some positive ways to fill in her time since she's moved home. Either helping her Mom who just had surgery - or doing certain projects around the house.

And she did for a few months have the right attitude about being open with me.

Masturbation buddies on Craigslist?  Am I threatening her, or giving her ideas?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Deejo said:


> That's why I referred the thermostat piece in the first place.
> 
> Do you have a laptop or a smart-phone? If so, sit down, lay down, or get next to her and tell her you love this social media thing. Ask her if she is aware that you can look for masturbation buddies online at Craig's List. (Don't ask me how I know this, a friend insisted I look at it one time ... I swear)
> 
> ...


I think his wife is making everything happen and he just keeps shaking his head going...I don't get it or I don't want to deal with it. He's unwittingly making her feel more insecure and most likely she'll keep up'ing the game in response.

You're basically telling him to get in the game when he keeps saying, I don't want to play games.

The end result is two people who are frustrated in a relationship I think.

What do you do then? When one wants to play and the other is unwilling?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton said:


> It's a great dream but I'm guessing that your wife doesn't recognize what she wants and so has no way to vocalize it in a meaningful way -or- she needs the excitement of provoking you into action. It may make her feel more loved or attractive and help with her feelings of self insecurities and insecurities in the relationship.
> 
> Why does it do this for her? She feels empowered by the idea that she can move you, it makes her feel genuinely connected to you; whereas, if she has to send you a memo that outlines what she wants to get a response, your response would be more cerebral than emotional.


I can think of a lot more positive ways she could emotionally "move" me and that would bring her attention ... without pi$$ing me off or hurting me.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

NG, have you ever cornered her in the laundry room (or garage, bedroom, etc) and said something along the lines of, "You look gorgeous. I have to take you."

Then pulled down her pants or up'd her skirt and taken her right there?

Has the thought ever even crossed your mind?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I can think of a lot more positive ways she could emotionally "move" me and that would bring her attention ... without pi$$ing me off or hurting me.


Absolutely, totally agree. I understand your frustration. I'm just trying to give you ideas as to where it may or may not be coming from.

I will tell you from experience, making my husband his favorite dinner, purchasing him a gift I know he'll love for no reason or other acts of love don't get me even close to the emotional response as smirking while slightly pissing him off does.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Point being ... you are doing what she's doing. Destabilizing.

At the risk of sounding like an absolute pr!ck (which I'm ok with), you are describing exactly who she used to be ... bored with, and disinterested in you. And at least half of that is on you ... unless or until you want to change it, or accept that you aren't or do not choose to be the guy that turns her on. I don't have a problem with this choice either ... it's the one I made.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton said:


> I think his wife is making everything happen and he just keeps shaking his head going...I don't get it or I don't want to deal with it. He's unwittingly making her feel more insecure and most likely she'll keep up'ing the game in response.
> 
> You're basically telling him to get in the game when he keeps saying, I don't want to play games.
> 
> ...


Since I've been struggling with fatigue, I find that working out is about the only thing that makes me feel better. So, I've been working out more in the evenings.

The last time we had sex, I got creative and moved my workout into the bedroom while she was watching TV. I didn't send her a memo asking for sex - I guess I played the game a bit - and it worked perfectly.



> I think his wife is making everything happen and he just keeps shaking his head going...I don't get it or I don't want to deal with it.


What is she doing that I'm missing? Other than complaining and trying to pi$$ me off?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Trenton - do you ALSO buy the gifts and make the dinners in addition to the smirks? Smirks alone don't work.

I haven't exactly done what you've described - the cornering and ravishing. But she also hasn't done the other things that frustrated women here do - makeup, red lipstick, lingerie, unexpected bjs for "no reason", etc. She flashes a boob and whines.

Deejo - I'm still trying to figure that one out. How much do I work on changing who I am after 16 years of marriage just to keep her interest? I don't have the answer to that yet. I'm pretty comfortable being who I am.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Get edgy. Make it more about teasing, and laughing if/when she gets pi$$ed off.


I "get" this.

But still worried about you and Craigslist...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I "get" this.
> 
> But still worried about you and Craigslist...


How do you think we found this place?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Conrad said:


> How do you think we found this place?


Bingo.

Honestly ... my best friend asked me during a phone conversation, if I had ever looked under (I don't recall the heading) but basically it was an 'adult' personals section on craigslist.

So it was a dare ... I had no choice. And it was a veritable potpourri of flesh marketing. And overwhelmingly from what I recall, the ones that stood out were women looking for partners to wank with ... either in person or online. I couldn't help but imagine bored housewives who imagine rubbing one out with a virtual partner isn't actually cheating. :scratchhead:

I have neither tried the service, nor am I suggesting that you use it to give your spouse ideas. Although I would suggest that you and she have cyber some night - presuming you both have laptops with webcams.

Back to our regularly scheduled program ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Honestly ... my best friend asked me during a phone conversation, if I had ever looked under (I don't recall the heading) but basically it was an 'adult' personals section on craigslist.
> 
> ...


You realize that these "women" were probably 13 year old boys, right?


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> ???? :scratchhead:


"Do that again and I'll spank your bum". "Do that again and there's no dinner for you tonight".

Your anger is a big sign of frustration and that you're running out of patience and tolerance. The way to control your emotions ... and not let your wife manipulate them ... is with healthy boundaries. Once you get angry, although it is a form of release, you have kind of "lost". Plus, all that your wife will remember is the anger, not what caused it in the first place.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

AFEH said:


> Once you get angry, although it is a form of release, you have kind of "lost". Plus, all that your wife will remember is the anger, not what caused it in the first place.
> 
> Bob


Yes - I completely agree with that. And its what happened to me earlier in the weekend - I lost my temper which set me up to have a lower bargaining position by the end of the weekend.

I did better last night.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> "Do that again and I'll spank your bum". "Do that again and there's no dinner for you tonight".
> 
> Your anger is a big sign of frustration and that you're running out of patience and tolerance. The way to control your emotions ... and not let your wife manipulate them ... is with healthy boundaries. Once you get angry, although it is a form of release, you have kind of "lost". Plus, all that your wife will remember is the anger, not what caused it in the first place.
> 
> Bob


Truer words were rarely spoken


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG,
Trenton really is spot on. I am a recovering button pusher. Also trying, really trying.
I will now make another confession. At about the 10 year mark in our marriage, things couldn't have been worse. We had both hurled hand grenades at each other for so long that it seemed nothing I did was getting noticed anymore. He would barely look up at me when I was talking. I was a total stranger in my own home. My existence was to go to work, come home, we made dinner, we ate dinner, took care of the kids, watched t.v. or I watched and he played online computer games. 11:00 pm rolls around and we go to bed. No sex. Wash, rinse, repeat. I would say things to push his buttons and got zero reaction. Then I would continue. Nothing. Then it would be a little harder. Nothing. I felt sadder and sadder the harder I pushed. 
His response was everything is fine and that I am the one who thinks our relationship is the problem. He then suggested I get "medicated". That hurt more than I have ever been hurt. Total, utter rejection. 
I got pissed off and in an effort to get some sort of a "rise" out of him, I proceeded to do what has to be the stupidest thing I have ever done in my marriage. I booked a hotel room and made sure it was paid for with our joint credit card and charged a couple hundred dollars worth of lingerie on it as well. Was it for him? No. I wanted him to believe I was having an affair. I wanted to "shake him up" if you will. Make him take notice so that we could work on our relationship. He saw the charges the next month. I came home from work and he was in tears on the sofa. I then broke down and told him it was a disgusting set up and there was nobody else. He didn't believe a word I said. He screamed horrible words at me and it was justified. I got furious myself and screamed words back at him. His anger and rage lasted for years after that, as did mine. He really believed I had had an affair and needless to say, my insanely stupid plan backfired in epic porportions. 
Why did I do it? To get his attention. I was desperate and wanted him to notice. I wanted for us to feel excitement again. I wanted him to want me, to work for me, to care. It sounds like your wife is at the place I was 7 years ago.
You have three options with a woman like this: ignore her like my husband did and further cause a divide. You can k!ss her a$$ and further loose yourself. Or you can set your boundaries. Tell her you love her dearly and want to make your marriage work but here is what you will and will not tolerate. Your line in the sand. Much like Bob suggested. If my husband would have come to me all those years ago and said I love you dearly, I will work hard to make this work and these are the actions,words, things I will no longer tolerate...you bet I would have taken notice. If I would have come to my husband all those years ago and said I love you dearly, I will not sit home weekend after weekend watching my life slip by....let's go out and if you don't want to, I will go by myself....you bet he would have noticed. 
It's your call.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

NG~

First, you know my main hang-out is over there in "Coping with Infidelity" so I did answer you over there: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/279649-post4.html And before I go a whole lot further, I would like to point you to a sticky over there in "Coping with Infidelity" entitled: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...isloyal-you-being-controlling.html#post238370 There is a fine line between snooping and controlling, and that's a fairly good discussion about it. 

But the  kids hang out over here in Men's Clubhouse and I personally do value the advice of some of the folks over here as it really does tend to get much more to the nitty gritty of the situation. Let me see if I can summarize where you are and what's going on:

Your wife didn't have one OM...she had that sort of unfaithful, flirty Facebook/Myspace/Craigslist "woman looking for men" kind of life. Thus she sort of "messed around" with a bunch of men at the same time and basically didn't really DO anything with them (physically) other than have EAs with all of them at the same time. She moved out and lived like this for about a year. 

Somewhat recently (4-5 months ago) she returned to the home and family and things were "better" but not great--certainly not heading back toward recovery and having a great relationship with you. Now she's been home 4-5 months, she doesn't work due to her Fibro and CFS but she has done some household projects, sex is on the lower end due to both you and her, and as of about 2 weeks ago, she's added a password back onto her laptop and says you are "controlling." She has said you are controlling before.

Some people have told you that she is crossing a boundary and suggest that you "insist" that she show you, but you say you can "insist" until you're blue in the face but she won't show you...and you have indicated you are not willing to enforce your boundary of saying "I will not live in a relationship in which my partner is secretive and hides things from me" because you don't want to give ultimatums or threaten the marriage. 

She has complained you're not having sex. 
She wanted to go to that biker rally.
You don't want to "reward" her bad behavior (passwording laptop) by giving her sex. 
Deejo speculates maybe thermostat is too low--you're not dynamic, playful or charming and that's pretty boring--get edgy.
AFEH suggests enforcing with humor or forfeits
Trenton says "Maybe she's pushing buttons because she's desperate for a reaction" and "she needs the excitement of provoking you into action." 
Brennan says you have three options with a woman like this: "ignore her like my husband did and further cause a divide. You can k!ss her a$$ and further loose yourself. Or you can set your boundaries."

I see all of these responses getting to the same issue. You have mentioned yourself that you are a sedate person and lately have had "fatigue and libido issues." Prior to the year when your wife exhibited unfaithful kind of behavior, you mentioned yourself that she thought you were controlling--used that word. And now, here it is 4-5 months later and she is starting to slip a little down that slope again. So I'm going to tell you right up front to your face what I think most folks here are too polite to tell you. 

It will never be "The Way it Was." You just HAVE to let that go. Furthermore, you are going to have to accept the idea that in order to build the kind of loving, trusting, exciting, intimate (physically and emotionally) relationship that you want, you are going to have to expend some energy, step up, move and change, and put effort into it! You can not expect her to put in all the effort, and what I hear, frankly, is "I'm tired. I don't want to do anything exciting. I don't want to have sex. I don't want to change. I don't want to have to enforce my own boundaries. I don't want to have to be proactive. I don't want to have to do anything! I want her to accept that I'm sedate and want to put in no effort, and I want her to let me control her because I have the ultimate sword over her head." 

Okay I have been here with you through this whole thing, right? All along we've made suggestions like "Expose the unfaithfulness" and you don't want to do it. "Don't pay for her internet or apartment" and you don't want to do it. "Be edgy and exciting and thrill her" and you don't want to do it. NG, I'm not picking on you, but here is REALITY: your wife is not a sedate person who is satisfied with being a cuddly little homebody. She NEVER will be a woman who is sedate and is satisfied with being a cuddly little homebody. My guess is that she is an Extrovert with a gigantic, capital E! So you have made a vow to meet HER NEEDS!! The question now really is this: are you going to fire up the engines and actually DO what you need to do in order to make this a fireworks sizzling hot relationships? Or are you going to continue to moan? If all you're going to do is whine and you're not willing to actually DO the hard, energetic things that MUST BE DONE in order to make this a great relationship, then I'll leave it to the "supportive" types to just agree with you and say "awww poor you." 

On the other hand, if you want to burn with passion for your wife and you want her to blaze for you. Here's one thing you could do right now...tonight: start on our Quizzes page and just take the Personality Quiz together. If nothing else it would tell you if she's an Extrovert and if she is...then guess what? You are going to have to get off your toadstool and put forth the energy to meet her needs. She wants a partner who'll wrestle with her, be a little edgy, and crank it up and if you're not willing to put in that effort there are men who are: MEM is one fine example! 

So I care NG--I do. If I didn't I wouldn't even bother to reply. But it's time to **** or get off the pot. Yep she has responsibilities to the relationship like being transparent, but she's not here. YOU ARE. You're job is to man up, fire up all thrusters, and be a more energetic, suave and debonnaire LOVER... not a sedate, controlling daddy. 

And by the way... I realize that eHow is hardly the "end all see all" of informative articles, but here's one you may want to take a peek at and actually put forth the energy to DO: How to Stop Being Controlling | eHow.com I'm not saying you are or are not controlling, but since this has come up more than once for a long, long time it seems to me it might at minimum be worth looking into.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Damn ... AC just got medieval on your ass. In a caring way ...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Holy Crap, AC!!!
You NAILED it. NG, you know I love you dearly but can I give you a gentle 2x4 upside the head? She is LITERALLY telling you she needs excitement, just like I did with my husband. He was perfectly happy watching t.v, meanwhile I was chewing my own arm off with boredom. You married an extrovert and you did it for a reason. She compliments you. Your calmness and introvert behavior compliments her. What happens when the paradigm shifts too much to either side? It doesn't work. 
She got a tattoo for a reason, she wants to go to biker rallies for a reason. She wants something new and something to look forward to. Give that to her! 
Hubby and I still have major problems, namely a difficulty with communication. He says things like Conrad does. I say things like Trenton does. See the problem? 
We both agreed to try and change certain things. He wants me to hold his hand and watch t.v with me. Boring for sure...I'd rather be living what I see on t.v. He loves the security of his home. LOVES it. Once he is home, he is home. Shoes kicked off. I hate it but it is practical. We both work and we have kids. Now, Friday and Saturday night? That is my night. I look forward to it all week and plan my outfit accordingly.  Friday night is a live band and last Friday night he was actually totally in to it. He didn't want to dance (duh) but he had a great time. Last Saturday night was hanging out at his friend's house drinking ritas and listening to Zepplin. It was a wonderful weekend. We have now done this for 3 weeks and he feels better and so do I. I don't ***** anymore about staying at home all the time and he is happier seeing me out and us both having a fun time, together.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Let's be clear and fair.


> She got a tattoo for a reason, she wants to go to biker rallies for a reason. She wants something new and something to look forward to. Give that to her!


Or decide that isn't your bag and part ways.

This goes back to my point about YOU needing to be the engine of change ... while she gets to cherry pick when she wants to do something she wants, and cite fibro and fatigue when she doesn't.

Personally, I wouldn't blame you for a moment if you decided, "Nah, no thanks."

But that isn't what you are saying, and therein lies the issue.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Deejo said:


> Let's be clear and fair.
> 
> 
> Or decide that isn't your bag and part ways.
> ...


I totally agree. In my situation we both saw what we are missing and we both work to make that missing part happen. I would not ever suggest anybody do something they are not ready to do. For us, it was about exploring new things. That is all.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Heh...she said "kids"


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

NG, for the record, you are a bass guitarist. Why in the HELL don't you use this to your advantage? Rock a tune for your wife. Something unexpected.

Anybody want to laugh? Well here goes....at the bar with the live band last Friday, I was dancing by myself. Hubby didn't want to. He was just watching me and others. "Low" suddenly was played. The "Apple bottom jeans" song. He actually hit the dance floor, drunk. He ROCKED Les Grossman and the entire crowd was in awe. This shy dude and somebody who doesn't dance or rarely drink at all. This was comedy to him and man alive was it sexy to me. Something totally unexpected. Out of left field. 
The fact that he did it....damn. He came out of his shell. I was actually the calmer of us that night. Imagine that. A perfect compliment. That shock alone made me attracted like a cougar in heat. Not the boring hubby anymore.  
We all need to keep ourselves interesting.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Bob is spot on here. 



AFEH said:


> "Do that again and I'll spank your bum". "Do that again and there's no dinner for you tonight".
> 
> Your anger is a big sign of frustration and that you're running out of patience and tolerance. The way to control your emotions ... and not let your wife manipulate them ... is with healthy boundaries. Once you get angry, although it is a form of release, you have kind of "lost". Plus, all that your wife will remember is the anger, not what caused it in the first place.
> 
> Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

OK - quick brain dump here.

Trenton - you never answered my question about cooking those meals or buying those gifts - do you do those things IN ADDITION to smirking and button pushing? To be literal, my wife no longer cooks. Your post reminded me of when she used to make lasagna for me - and I really miss that.

I agree with the tickle/humor/playful/spanking approach - but at the same time when I see her spend hours on her laptop I just don't want anything to do with her.

I may be sedate - or maybe not. I wasn't sedate when we went to see Kid Rock (my choice as much as hers). Judo isn't sedate - not that she would know - I've been in class since September (kids too) and she's never come by to watch (MIL's come twice now). I'm also not totally sedated when I'm cooking, doing dishes, doing laundry, mowing the yard, walking the dog, taking a walk with the kids around the block, etc.

Watched an episode of Dr. Phil last night - similar to my situation. The woman basically enjoyed the rush of meeting and getting attention from men. To her everything was innocent. The love letter she wrote to his best friend strongly suggested otherwise. Dr. Phil told her husband that it had nothing to do with him. His wife basically had an addiction to that feeling you get when you start a new relationship. Her husband had become so paranoid that he'd lost jobs because he felt he had to leave work to keep an eye on her.

Just saw where Jelly Bean caught the same episode last night and posted about it:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/23358-dr-phil-emotional-affairs.html

My wife wants more sex. But unlike other wives here who put on lingerie and heels or buy new things for the bedroom to try and get more sex, her main method of seduction is to complain. For Valentines day I went out and bought "Connect Foreplay" and "Bondage 101" games - and a riding crop - and some candy and a card. She got me a nice card. So far, we've played Connect Foreplay once and that's it.

I went to see our old marriage therapist alone to talk about my anger and resentment. She thinks I'm not ready to emotionally commit to the marriage yet - that I'm keeping one foot out the door. And she thinks that "I feel" my wife never truly showed remorse for the EAs.

BUT - I am where I am. I've committed to this marriage. I will turn up the thermostat. Our therapist had suggested before that we could potentially screw ourselves out of our problems. Others - including some in this thread - have suggested that having more sex may make my wife a happier/better person/mother/wife. I tried this when we were separated, but I found that it didn't stop her from seeking attention from others. But - I'll try it again as things are somewhat different now.

I type all of this stuff and truly feel like an idiot for having held on to the marriage for this long...


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

You're not an idiot NG! You love her and you love your kids. Cut yourself some slack and pick up that guitar.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

On a certain level, I do have to respect all of you for being so sacrificing and so enduring in your not so good marriages! 

I can't live a life like that! 

When I started having no attachment for my ex, when I started longing for what other people had and I didn't! I felt miserable, I left, I gave up everything, I left. I WAS selfish, and I had to endure the pain of giving up my son, but I think my life now is much better than the one if I had continued.

I can only say I understand your pain and your struggling. Really don't know what kind of advice I can give!


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> OK - quick brain dump here.
> 
> Trenton - you never answered my question about cooking those meals or buying those gifts - do you do those things IN ADDITION to smirking and button pushing? To be literal, my wife no longer cooks. Your post reminded me of when she used to make lasagna for me - and I really miss that.
> 
> ...


Sorry I didn't answer you. I thought it was rhetorical. I do also cook the meals and get the gifts. Husband wanted to take me to his new office this past weekend and I declined but felt really guilty about it now because I do think it was him trying to reconnect with me.

I think we can have one foot out the door in many ways and not really recognize it. We end up being 50% of the problem but feel helpless to change it. It's easier to stay where we are and scary to think that we could commit and give our 100% only to find that the other M/W isn't willing.

This is where I am but in fairness to my husband I think he's been clear that he is committed which puts it all on me.

When I first was introduced to you I thought it was all your wife's fault (being honest here). In these forums you appear to be such a wonderful, funny, playful, honest, thoughtful man. Now (and I don't want to offend you), it's become clearer that you are not showing your wife any of these traits and your resentments are so big that you refuse to. You're both doing nothing but repeating the exact same behavior that is causing the problems and it appears that you both feel justified and so neither will give.

This is all forum input. Obviously, I'm missing a lot. Both of you have to decide if you're committed to the relationship. She may not feel sorry about the EA's yet. She may feel justified just as you feel justified in not giving anything of yourself because she won't either.

The big question is...is this the life you want to live? If it's not then the question is...why the heck aren't you actively trying to change it?


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I just wanted to add that I don't think your wife just wants more sex. I think that's what she thinks she wants. Like you, she really wants a better, more fulfilled relationship and life but doesn't know how to begin to get there.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I'm pretty comfortable being who I am.



Change typically needs a catalyst, being “I’m pretty comfortable being who I am” isn’t one of them. If you are truly comfortable with who you are then you will never change. If you never change then your world will never change. Unless of course someone else changes it for you.

So given that you will never change and that your wife has no reason to change then things will forever be as they are in your marriage right now.

Can you accept and live with that?

Bob


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Bob,

I realize changing ourselves is very important, but I also realize when you live with someone you don't love, you have no incentive to change, because you don't know what kind of result you can get. If you live with someone you love and who loves you, you have more incentive to change yourself to be a better person.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Bob,
> 
> I realize changing ourselves is very important, but I also realize when you live with someone you don't love, you have no incentive to change, because you don't know what kind of result you can get. If you live with someone you love and who loves you, you have more incentive to change yourself to be a better person.


When resentments pile up really high on top of love, it's very hard to feel or see that love.


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Trenton said:


> When resentments pile up really high on top of love, it's very hard to feel or see that love.


It is very true, because the feeling is so negative and painful!

If it continues, then one day you don't even want the love anymore because it is not the kind of love you want!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

greenpearl said:


> Bob,
> 
> I realize changing ourselves is very important, but I also realize when you live with someone you don't love, you have no incentive to change, because you don't know what kind of result you can get. If you live with someone you love and who loves you, you have more incentive to change yourself to be a better person.


True GP but seems to me NG wants his to keep his cake and eat it at the same time. That’s obviously not possible. So NG is attempting the impossible.

That is NG wants change in his marriage but is comfortable as he is and is therefore unwilling to change to get what he wants. QED!!!

But! And here’s the rub. NG wants his wife to change!!!

Just how many times has it been said here something like “The only person you can change is yourself”.

NG may well give up on his marriage once he accepts his wife will never ever change. She has no need to change. NG gives her absolutely no motivation or catalyst to change and so she will forever be the same!

Bob


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## greenpearl (Sep 3, 2010)

Bob,

These days I keep on comparing some marriages here with cancer. 

They are difficult to be cured, but some people are trying to cure it desperately!


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

This actually goes back to the old 'Apples' thread.

We can talk 'excitement' until we are blue in the friggin face.

Here is my unfiltered, indisputable opinion;

Your wife wants a boyfriend, not a husband.

Your focus is on being a father and husband ... which let's face it, is what you are. She isn't much interested in being a wife and a mother. I'm basing that on your input about her activity and engagement level.

She's not happy and she doesn't know why. She wants to blame you, cuz that's easy and comfortable. Maybe some folks here want to blame you ... for being who you are, instead of being more who your wife _thinks_ she wants.

Remember the caliber of guy she was involving herself with? Nothing like you. I mean that as a compliment to you.

This is where the man-up thing shifts gears. MEM, and others provide input that the balance of maintaining attraction and sexual intimacy rests with us (men). We do A and woman responds positively with B. Undoubtedly, there is truth to that. But to me, it isn't THE truth. 

The truth is about what you want, what you are willing to do ... as a direct result of what you believe your partner is willing to do or demonstrate in reciprocation.
For all of our old discussions about unconditional versus conditional love, several folks in this thread have clearly outlined WHY it is conditional ... and it should be. At any given moment, you are getting it right, or getting it wrong. You are fostering, or killing attraction.

Where it becomes tragic is that each of you _believes_ that you are doing what is necessary to foster attraction, but neither of you find the actions of the other 'attractive'.

Be who you are. Go after what you want. Recognize and be decisive when it becomes apparent that you aren't going to get it.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

He said his wife made lasagna in the past and he liked it. He still sees traits in his wife that allow him to hold on and that he likes. I admit, given her behavior, it's hard to side with her, but I also feel that since she has no voice here it's possible there's more to it. I hope there is.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Bob,

I'm comfortable with who I am at my core - my principals and what I believe in. I will do new things if they fit who I am - or if I can see where I might grow or learn.

Judo was a big change for me. It was a major stretch outside my comfort zone. I wasn't in good shape when I started and I never participated in organized sports as a kid (except 2 years of baseball). I hadn't done anything this physical in YEARS - or maybe even ever.

Two weeks ago, in a training drill, I outgripped a visiting black belt who had been training for 9 years. We play these little mini-games or drills - loser does 10 push-ups. He literally did about 100 push-ups while I did NONE. I felt bad for the guy. He hasn't been back to class since. The instructor, somewhat jokingly, says I embarrassed him and ran him off because he hasn't been back since.

But compare Judo to a Bike Rally. Judo has discipline - causes you to focus your energies on improving. Pushes your physical boundaries. Its something that "I" can relate to.

The Bike Rallys she's interested in would be a weekend escape from reality. I don't see growth in watching wet t-shirt contests and mud wrestling - or spending a weekend "camping" on private grounds with no police allowed so that you can get half naked and wasted and don't have to drive anywhere.

Look up HogRock in IL. You have to agree that you are 18 to look at the pics. Don't try it from work. As I've said before - I think there were some bikes in the pics - mixed in among the topless women.

That just isn't me.

*I'm comfortable with who I am at my core - my principals and what I believe in. I will do new things if they fit who I am - or if I can see where I might grow or learn.*


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## JustAGirl (Oct 1, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I long for a world where people say what they mean and mean what they say.
> 
> If you want attention you say "let's spend more time together" - and not "I'VE LOCKED THE LAPTOP AND WHAT I DO ISN'T YOUR BUSINESS!"
> 
> I have a dream...


:iagree:


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Deejo, I believe Acceptance is huge, massive in these things.

What do I mean? Acceptance of the person as they are, good parts, bad parts, warts and all. While we try and get our spouse to be the person we want them to be then the person we live with lives part in reality and part in our imagination. “I have a dream” to quote NG.

But while Acceptance seems a simple concept, Accepting a person as they are can be truly painful and can precipitate great change in our world.

But at the same time, Acceptance can be a great relief. Why? Because we no longer try to change our spouse. Because we see, finally and maybe categorically, that we are with the wrong person. A person who has wildly different values and beliefs to ourselves and “things” can never be reconciled, never be happy and joyful, never fruitful. That’s not what marriage is all about.

And don’t most of us need “Acceptance”, for others to see us as we are, not what they want us to be?

Bob


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

AFEH said:


> But at the same time, Acceptance can be a great relief. Why? Because we no longer try to change our spouse. Because we see, finally and maybe categorically, that we are with the wrong person. A person who has wildly different values and beliefs to ourselves and “things” can never be reconciled, never be happy and joyful, never fruitful. That’s not what marriage is all about.
> 
> 
> Bob


This is the TRUTH to which I refer, outlined a bit more succinctly and eloquently. Thanks, Bob. My version of the truth contains a lot more 'F' bombs.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> Bob,
> 
> I'm comfortable with who I am at my core - my principals and what I believe in. I will do new things if they fit who I am - or if I can see where I might grow or learn.
> 
> ...


I get you NG. But for me the only constant ... is change! I thought at the age of 61 I’d never have to learn anything new, my mistake.

A lot of what you talk about is called “Incompatibility”!!! Different values, different strokes for different folks.

You obviously love your wife. I was deeply in love with mine and thought I had no choice in the matter. But then one day I realised I did have that choice. I could either love her and carry on providing what I provided, or not love her and withdraw what I provided.

At the end of the day, my love for my wife was not getting me what I needed out of my life. In fact my love for my wife was getting me a lot of things I seriously didn’t need. So I decided to no longer love her.

Love is a choice. Think on it.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

AFEH said:


> I get you NG. But for me the only constant ... is change! I thought at the age of 61 I’d never have to learn anything new, my mistake.
> 
> A lot of what you talk about is called “Incompatibility”!!! Different values, different strokes for different folks.
> 
> ...


Getting older is kind of a blessing in disguise!!! I truly believe that my 40's can be so much better than my 30's (just turned 39). As of right now - I don't fear aging because I know how to take better care of myself.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

NG, I’ll leave you with the following thought to ponder on.

Your wife will never change into the person you think she should be and who you want her to be.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

AFEH said:


> NG, I’ll leave you with the following thought to ponder on.
> 
> Your wife will never change into the person you think she should be and who you want her to be.
> 
> Bob


What I think I really struggle with is that she's changed. She WAS pretty close to that person I wanted, but now she's just different. Its like she's reverted back to high school. Like Deejo said - she wants a boyfriend - not a husband.

Bob - you said love is a choice. I also believe that love is a verb (stealing from Stephen Covey).

So I'm going to try to love her for who she is. I'm not going to worry about the laptop. If I want her to close it, instead of complaining or getting mad, I'll try nibbling her earlobe or maybe put the riding crop to good use!

I'm not going to a bike rally or Hog Rock. Conrad suggested New Orleans - I could definitely do that. Was browsing on the net - looks cool to me and it looks like you could find just the right amount of trouble if you wanted to. Birthplace of Jazz, right? Pretty sure they have beer a topless woman here and there. Kind of like the bike rally without the bikes. I still think Vegas sounds cool too.

And maybe I can try to be more of a boyfriend.

This thread has been very helpful guys and gals.

Thanks.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

We're not happy, til you're not happy ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Deejo said:


> We're not happy, til you're not happy ...


:smthumbup:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Deejo, I believe Acceptance is huge, massive in these things.
> 
> What do I mean? Acceptance of the person as they are, good parts, bad parts, warts and all. While we try and get our spouse to be the person we want them to be then the person we live with lives part in reality and part in our imagination. “I have a dream” to quote NG.
> 
> ...


Bob,

This is a great summary.

Of course, what you also can see is that you are with the "right" person. Consequently, you can relax and accept the fact that this is how it's going to be.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> This is a great summary.
> 
> Of course, what you also can see is that you are with the "right" person. Consequently, you can relax and accept the fact that this is how it's going to be.


That’s ok if the status quo … is ok? If things as they are fine and compromise is not too much.

I think it’s when we compromise our deeply held values too much so that we lose our sense of self or we get into a battle of values, a battle of “shoulds”.

It’s when we’re stuck on a value or two and find that we simply cannot compromise them or demonstrate ever more patience and tolerance that we become, well, intolerant. Those N.U.T.s. those boundaries.

And if we erect our boundaries and our partner trashes them, as NG’s wife has done, then we either concede defeat and dredge up some more patience and tolerance or we stand up for our self and what we believe in at the deepest part of our self. That means “no compromise”. Then it’s up to our partner to change, or not.

I ran out of patience and tolerance and by accepting my wife for who she had become over the years, that she was never going to change, I discovered I wasn’t with the right person.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> What I think I really struggle with is that she's changed. She WAS pretty close to that person I wanted, but now she's just different. Its like she's reverted back to high school. Like Deejo said - she wants a boyfriend - not a husband.
> 
> Bob - you said love is a choice. I also believe that love is a verb (stealing from Stephen Covey).
> 
> ...


What’s that old Chinese saying? “If you haven’t seen your friend for three days, take a careful look as they may have changed”.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> I'm not going to a bike rally or Hog Rock.


I say Go! Go and experience your wife’s world, or at least a part of it. And just observe her and let it all sink in.

Maybe, just maybe, you will see your wife very much more clearly and get to know her.

And just maybe, she'll do something for you in return.

Bob


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> That’s ok if the status quo … is ok? If things as they are fine and compromise is not too much.
> 
> I think it’s when we compromise our deeply held values too much so that we lose our sense of self or we get into a battle of values, a battle of “shoulds”.
> 
> ...


Bob,

I'm actually relieved to report that my wife and I are actually entering that phase of the relationship that is the most fun and edgy. We're both growing at the same time.

And, apparently, we're growing together.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

AFEH said:


> I say Go! Go and experience your wife’s world, or at least a part of it. And just observe her and let it all sink in.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe, you will see your wife very much more clearly and get to know her.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I really have nothing against bikers, topless women or beer - as long as my wife isn't topless around beer drinking bikers. Its not until the summer - still have time to think it over.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> To be honest, I really have nothing against bikers, topless women or beer - as long as my wife isn't topless around beer drinking bikers. Its not until the summer - still have time to think it over.


Your wife may well be the type of person who enjoys being topless around beer drinking bikers!

You’ll never know while you have all those shoulds and shouldn’ts inside of you. And because of that in some ways you will never know your wife and although you are living together she’ll be as a stranger to you.

And then you expect your wife to go somewhere you want to go. Maybe your world will be as strange to her as hers is to you.

Bob


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Bob,
> 
> I'm actually relieved to report that my wife and I are actually entering that phase of the relationship that is the most fun and edgy. We're both growing at the same time.
> 
> And, apparently, we're growing together.



That's magic Conrad. The way things should be, growing together and helping one another with the growth.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> That's magic Conrad. The way things should be, growing together and helping one another with the growth.


And being honest retrospectively - making course corrections as issues materialize.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Nice Guy : 

You've had So much insightful advice on here, almost seems silly for me to add anything. 

I agree with Deejo, she really IS wanting the playful spontaneous excitement of a new "boyfriend" , that Dopamine RUSH --and everything AffairCare said. WOW. Hopefully not too hard to take ! I personally resonated with her every thought to you, excellent, as this is What I KNEW I NEEDED from my husband during that time -when I so wanted to re-live my youth --which was accually very boring and uneventful compared to most young people. 

I lived for my kids far too many years, I suddenly wouldn't have cared if they all went to camp the ENTIRE Summer, I would have even paid big bucks to get rid of them! I never would have thought to feel such a thing! 


I know me & your wife has the same temperment, Her E is surely bigger than mine! Ha ha And what a Mid Life Crisis she is experiencing! How long it will last and if you can survive her form of living on the flirty edge of craziness, time can only tell. 

Please try to roll with her, indulge her in these things she craves, so long as you don't cheat on each other, enjoy thyselves, do it all together, stay by her side & let some of that free spirit roam. In her mind, she NEEDS these things. I can see not letting her take her top off at the biker rally, but maybe she can get her t-shirt all wet & flash you ! 

This will pass, she is not going to want to be doing Biker Rallys in her 50's. She feels like she needs to get some of this out of her system. Maybe it is delusional to all of us, but it is where she is at. What can you do but get on the rollercoaster & ride with her. 

I think I finally get what "Edgy" means now -about playful teasing, being able to laugh it off if she is Pi**sed, not taking it internally to ruin your day, turn it around kind of thing. This eluded me before. Oh how important! This kind of mental engagement , if you are not doing it, or mastering it yet, work on that. I really didn't think my husband had this edginess thing, but he is teasingly playful throughout the day, pokes fun at me when I start to get upset about something. 


Have you planned a Romantic Vacation -just you & her for at least a couple nights, getting away from the hum drum. 

Just for the heck of it - This sounds like a good book: 

Amazon.com: Light Her Fire: How to Ignite Passion, Joy, and Excitement in the Woman You Love (9780440212492): Ellen Kreidman: Books


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> And being honest retrospectively - making course corrections as issues materialize.


Truth and reconcilliation?


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Nice Guy :
> 
> You've had So much insightful advice on here, almost seems silly for me to add anything.
> 
> ...


Thanks SA. Planning to do "something" this summer - just the two of us. Not sure if it will be a bike really, a bed and breakfast or something in between. Whatever it is, I'll be sure we find some way to have a little more adventure. 

Getting ready for a short family trip this weekend (tomorrow).


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Truth and reconcilliation?


Huge increase in emotional honesty.

Sometimes, the conversations are unpleasant. Better a small unpleasant exchange than a huge disconnect down the road.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

Conrad said:


> Huge increase in emotional honesty.
> 
> Sometimes, the conversations are unpleasant. Better a small unpleasant exchange than a huge disconnect down the road.


That's another thing that I don't understand about my marriage / wife.

She'll complain about little things - but she doesn't seem to like talking about bigger issues until things start blowing up.

Like when the EAs started. She was not communicating with me that she needed more attention. And given her recent (at that time) diagnosis of Fibro and Chronic Fatigue I figured that sexual attention was the last thing on her mind. And maybe it wasn't on her mind - until she got a taste of some 'forbidden' attention from Facebook.

Maybe there were clues I missed, but there was no direct communication about these issues.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

NG,

We have an agreement. We call it the 98%/2% rule. If things are 98% in order, complaining about the 2% is unwarranted - unless your hair is on fire.

Words any man hates to hear, "This has been going on for months"

The 98%/2% rule brings some relief in those situations.

To quote Atholk, "Sex may have been on her mind, but sex with you wasn't on her mind."




nice777guy said:


> That's another thing that I don't understand about my marriage / wife.
> 
> She'll complain about little things - but she doesn't seem to like talking about bigger issues until things start blowing up.
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Huge increase in emotional honesty.
> 
> Sometimes, the conversations are unpleasant. Better a small unpleasant exchange than a huge disconnect down the road.


Interesting. I think Emotional Honesty so very important. Yes, much better to work through the unpleasant things than to leave them there unaddressed and waiting. Coincidentally I’m trying to get to some truths with my stbx. But there’re are many issues going back decades and I know she’s not being emotionally honest with me. She’s a “really nice woman”, one who will never admit to something that shows her in a bad light. I wish you well and can only think it will be of terrific benefit to both of you.

Bob


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> Maybe there were clues I missed, but there was no direct communication about these issues.


And THIS right here is always the beginning of something NOT so good, a slow divide. Let's face it, none of us are total mind readers, even of those we love the most & have shared a bed with for years. I could still kick my husband for not opening up to me -when he wanted 'more'. 

I am with AFEH all the way :iagree: even the unpleasant, no matter how ugly it might be and/or how pathetic it may make US look (humility is under valued). If we choose to marry someone, in my mind, we should feel the freedom (& hopefully acceptance) in baring the utter depths of our souls to one another. Sometimes that is NOT PRETTY at all ! 

I really feel it falls 1st on the one who is suffering from inner restlessless, boredom, the beginnings of resentment , whatever it is -no matter how big or how small. We should take the time 
& as GENTLY as one can - to sit them down and say something to this effect-filling in the blanks :

"You are my husband/wife, I want to be REAL before you....... I value you & our relationship too much to hide anything from you...................... but I ask you hear me out before judging me ........... I am struggling with some things................ questioning............... I am feeling .............. I do not want to hurt you but I must be true to myself at the same time ................. ........ I want you to help me get through this...........I need you like I have never needed you before .......... I want you to BE these things for me............. I hope you can understand..................I want us to ride this out together........" And hopefully IF the spouse is receptive & understanding & you both have the love, this will end with some "I love you's" at the end of such a vulnerable talk. 

And every spouse should do just this BEFORE even a hint of resentment sets in, even IF it means your spouse may NOT like what you have to say and their JUDGING you. *The risk still needs taken. * 

Tell me Nice Guy, what do you think is your wife's reasons for not coming to YOU before she started getting herself involved online , any of these, or maybe another idea >>>> 

*1.* Fear of Hurting YOU since you are such a wonderful father, good provider, you don't deserve this, her madness, her waywardness -You likely being Mr loving faithful since day 1. She feared wounding you, and knew it might be something you might not be able to understand or overcome, so she stayed silent. 

*2.* Fear of Judgement when one is rawfully transparent, Sometimes harshly judged for having 
/speaking thoughts / fantasies outside of the marraige. 

*3.* FEAR of the other never allowing their WORDS & hurtful wayward thoughts to be "lived down" -bringing up in future conflicts like ammunition to maime the other, giving them the halo in all conflict. 

*4*. Plain "Selfishness" - just wanting our cake & eating it too -see what we can get away with, not willing to show our true colors lest WE look bad. 

*5*. Not jumping the gun, attempting to sort whatever out on their own, trying to spare everyone the hurt -hoping/praying they overcome/this will pass. Noone has to know. Unfortunetely this usually never pans out like this, we NEED to talk to someone -so we end up reaching out to others (online, work, friends, etc), these are the killers. Should have been the spouse 1st. 

*6. *She doesn't understand herself or what was happening to her, so no idea how to articulate it . Probably a lousy excuse here, but some really do suck at communication & understanding themselves & what they are searching for. 



Just speaking from my own marraige -- I have always deeply FELT the freedom & acceptance to take literally ANYTHING & EVERYTHING to my husband (this is worth more than GOLD!) , he is the most understanding man - and forgiving. He does not expect perfection, nor a Halo, he understands human nature in many things - but he DOES expect my honesty in ALL things. And because he IS the way he is and has proved this many many times, It is EASY for me to be so very transparent before him .


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

nice777guy said:


> That's another thing that I don't understand about my marriage / wife.
> 
> She'll complain about little things - but she doesn't seem to like talking about bigger issues until things start blowing up.
> 
> ...


It may be passive aggressive behaviour NG. Your wife may well be full of resentments that go back years. Instead of dealing with issues from the past she prefers to hold onto them all to use in the future. All the “No housework”, “No cooking”, EAs etc. etc. may well be passive aggressive behaviour.

And all the while you are “comfortable with who you are” all you are doing is enabling your wife’s passive aggressive behaviour. But who is this “You” that you are comfortable with? Sure there’s the You inside of you, your internal world, but what about the You outside of you? This is the external world which the You inside of you has created! So you have two You’s! The one inside and the one outside. That outside You, your outside world, is never going to change until you change the You inside of you.

Bob


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> And THIS right here is always the beginning of something NOT so good, a slow divide. Let's face it, none of us are total mind readers, even of those we love the most & have shared a bed with for years. I could still kick my husband for not opening up to me -when he wanted 'more'.
> 
> I am with AFEH all the way :iagree: even the unpleasant, no matter how ugly it might be and/or how pathetic it may make US look (humility is under valued). If we choose to marry someone, in my mind, we should feel the freedom (& hopefully acceptance) in baring the utter depths of our souls to one another. Sometimes that is NOT PRETTY at all !
> 
> ...


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

AFEH said:


> It may be passive aggressive behaviour NG. Your wife may well be full of resentments that go back years. Instead of dealing with issues from the past she prefers to hold onto them all to use in the future. All the “No housework”, “No cooking”, EAs etc. etc. may well be passive aggressive behaviour.
> 
> And all the while you are “comfortable with who you are” all you are doing is enabling your wife’s passive aggressive behaviour. But who is this “You” that you are comfortable with? Sure there’s the You inside of you, your internal world, but what about the You outside of you? This is the external world which the You inside of you has created! So you have two You’s! The one inside and the one outside. That outside You, your outside world, is never going to change until you change the You inside of you.
> 
> Bob


Not sure if she's holding on to resentments. I think she resents what has happened to HER (Fibro).

The phrase "you teach people how to treat you" - in my head a lot lately.

No - I'm not completely comfortable with who I am on the outside.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

nice777guy said:


> I think she resents what has happened to HER (Fibro).


If I found out I had something like this, I would be MAD, resentful, angry, I know I wouldn't take it smiling. I only know one woman with this, she sounds like she is always in pain. Coming to grips with what that entails as we grow older, I can see why she just wants to have fun NOW. She probably fears what the furture holds, how bad it may get. ?? 

Our health is everything, we may not think about it much, but when it starts to go , it is a HUGE BLOW.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> If I found out I had something like this, I would be MAD, resentful, angry, I know I wouldn't take it smiling. I only know one woman with this, she sounds like she is always in pain. Coming to grips with what that entails as we grow older, I can see why she just wants to have fun NOW. She probably fears what the furture holds, how bad it may get. ??
> 
> Our health is everything, we may not think about it much, but when it starts to go , it is a HUGE BLOW.


But its not consistent. This came up in therapy yesterday.

Most people who have fibro suffer from a lot of pain from physical activities. Along with Chronic Fatigue, which many other Fibro sufferers have, they are usually too tired for sex and even find it painful and unpleasant.

And the sex my wife seems to enjoy the most is more physical - consistently - than its probably ever been.

In addition, like many other patients, she's taking depression medication. In most cases these medications - including the one she takes - lower the libido.

SA - any idea what your friend's sex life is like?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Geeze Nice Guy, imagine what she would be like if she didn't have the Depression meds & the Fatigue! I bet that thought scares you! That lady was a friend of a friend, much older, she would have looked at me very funny, maybe even scolded me had I mentioned sex, being the conservative soul she was. We never went there. Sorry! 

I don't think your wife is suffering as badly as she was originally, it wouldnt make any sense, or she is taking some FINE pain meds to mask it. Don't you think mentally, sexual excitement can be a SWEET escape from the hum drum, her mind is very much engaged in hot pursuit of these pleasurable things, what better stress reliever is there!


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Geeze Nice Guy, imagine what she would be like if she didn't have the Depression meds & the Fatigue! I bet that thought scares you! That lady was a friend of a friend, much older, she would have looked at me very funny, maybe even scolded me had I mentioned sex, being the conservative soul she was. We never went there. Sorry!
> 
> I don't think your wife is suffering as badly as she was originally, it wouldnt make any sense, or she is taking some FINE pain meds to mask it. Don't you think mentally, sexual excitement can be a SWEET escape from the hum drum, her mind is very much engaged in hot pursuit of these pleasurable things, what better stress reliever is there!


She takes no pain meds.

And even though I'm feeling tired and fatigued - and seeking treatment (currently trying a thyroid med with no results) - I still initiate just as much or more than she does.

I AM NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT THE FREQUENCY OF SEX. I am not rejecting her on a regular basis.

For me - foreplay starts with a kiss on the neck or a nibble on the ear, or even a compliment about how nice she looks along with a grin.

For her - it starts with some sort of complaint - or by flashing me. As with everything else, there's NO effort...


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