# Moral obligation to sexless partner.



## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Okay, I finally decided this deserved another thread topic. It's a bit cerebral (as compared to "I wanna a threesome" type of topcis  ) but I think it's warranted.

Let's say you have a sexless marriage. You could say it's 0-100% your fault, 0-100% your spouse's fault, and any mix therein. You could both be searching for a diagnosis and successful "treatment" or one may be totally detached and unmotivated. Whatever the reason, it is what it is, as they say.

How long is the other spouse under moral obligation to "hang in there?"' Even despite best efforts by all?

Again, it's not about blame. . .just wondering what the forum thinks. And I'd appreciate as non-vague as you can be in your response. No, I am not necessarily searching for a number, but there has to be soemthing to help guide a person/couple.

I have pondered this for a long time. When I was dating a woman during my divorce, I discovered she had 2 previouis marraiges, one was 6 months, the other was 2 years. I don't think it had anything to do with sex as for the break-up, but at first I was like:

"Well, I don't agree with that. You didn't even really try."

But then, when I examined my own situation. . .I lost from any estimate of 5-10 years in a bad marriage (no, it wasn' all bad, I ahve some good memories for sure surrounding the family, but there was no affection for a long time and she was unhappy and so was I)

My take suddenly went from "judgmental" to "admiration." She knew when to "cut her losses."

So, how long do you hold onto a bad stock/investment? More than 6 months? Less than 10 years?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Less than 6 months, I wouldn't last at all, and I would be so darn vocal about what I wanted, he would want rid of me. Yes, I would be reduced to a whining *****ing baby. Glad I ain't married to this or I would be one of your more disgrunted posters.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

For me it has been over 2 years. I have tried to "hang on" for as long as i possibly can, but my marriage has fallen apart and it is not necessarily just over sex. There are a lot of other things going on that he will not talk about.. He sweeps everything under the rug like it never happened. So with that said we can not fix our marriage problems if I dont really know what they are for him.. We have sex maybe 6 times a year if that..

I do believe that marriage is 50/50. I do admit i am 50% at fault for everything..

I am done... 2 years in my opinion is too long to live in a sexless,loveless marriage. I have finally accepted the fact that my marriage is over. My h is not willing to work on it. 

All in all i think the how long someone should hang in there is entirely up to that person..


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I would recommend you bail before you are ruined for any normal relationships with normal people. I waited too long - now I am sure I'm toxic to other people who aren't damaged angry and insane.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> All in all i think the how long someone should hang in there is entirely up to that person..


Ehhh. . .I don't know if I agree with such a relativistic standpoint (vs. absolutist).

I mean, I conjure up an image of a whining, horny dog man throwing a fit after 3 months of no sex and walking out. Somehow doesn't seem right, esp. when you factor in pregnancy and other stressors on women.

That being said, i am not far off with SA - I would say "9 months" - less than a year, more than baseball season. Anything more is just a bonus of course, and yes, I do realize sex is often the symptom, not the cause (more often than not).

I like RLD's answer too. . .when your other relationships start to be affected - distanced family and friends and children. . .that's probably a sign. Or if you are becoming so embittered I guess.

You know, this is probably an issue they take up at "tribunals" on deciding annullment. . .when to grant it or not with regards to sex.

I think it's a good subject to explore as we all dole out advice here. Of course, we all want everyone to get the answer, find happiness, and fulfillment. But that's not always going to happen despite everyone's good faith effort.

If the answer is 6 to 9 months in the "TAM Tribunal", then we have a lot of people here who are absolved of any moral wrongdoing for seeking divorce. I always say though - just be careful - wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

But I think this is information the poor, often alone, and isolated sexually denied spouse needs to know.


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## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

My marriage of eleven years sucked for three years and it was my fault. Wife said she wasnt happy. I fixed it three years ago. Now I have a beautiful marriage.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

YupItsMe:

Thanks for the share.

Would you agree that while yours is a happy ending, that your wife had no moral obligation after a certain time period expired?

And I am only zoning in on sex, because sex is what consummates the marriage and makes it valid. When you say it was your fault - what was your fault? No sex?


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

37 minutes


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> Ehhh. . .I don't know if I agree with such a relativistic standpoint (vs. absolutist).
> 
> I mean, I conjure up an image of a whining, horny dog man throwing a fit after 3 months of no sex and walking out. Somehow doesn't seem right, esp. when you factor in pregnancy and other stressors on women.
> 
> ...


Like i said 2 years is TOO LONG.. :scratchhead: I have tried to fix it with no results.. for the last 2 years. I cant do it by myself... What i can do by my self is file for divorce and start over and maybe have some type of normalcy in my life..

The relationship with my H has effected me in other relationships i have with family. I dont even really want to leave the house. Don't really talk to anyone anymore... It really does effect your entire life and relationships with other people. I feel somewhat ashamed that i have failed somehow... But ya know what, life goes on.. You are the only one who can choose between being miserable or happy, I am tired of being miserable.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Oops. . .sorry, missed that. . .thank you.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hmmmm... I thought this was a marriage forum.

Why is a sexless marriage different than one where say, there are financial problems, or health problems, or family problems, or emotional problems, or any number of other problems?

While I believe it is a personal decision on leaving, for me, unless there's cheating (I'm gone immediately) or abuse (I'm gone immediately), then "for better or worse" and "in sickness and in health" applies. I am in it for the LONG HAUL. Just me. YMMV.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Scannerguard said:


> I think it's a good subject to explore as we all dole out advice here. Of course, we all want everyone to get the answer, find happiness, and fulfillment. But that's not always going to happen despite everyone's good faith effort.


I love to give advice and I have *much sympathy *here for these situations cause I know if I was in some of these , I would be an emotional trainwreck in overdrive. For my own sanity, I would have to get out. Physical touch means TOO much to me. Even in the past, this would have been true also .....feeling "wanted" by your spouse is LIFE GIVING, spirit lifting, take that away and it drains the life right out of you. I always felt that, true, I took it for granted, but had he removed it, I would have gotten depressed. This I know. 


Really, what is there to wake up to in the morning, you & your hand? How hollow, the sun would be dimmer somehow, the air would be staler, everytime you hear a love song on the radio , you'd have to push it out of your mind cause it hurts too much, if you can't reach out & hold your lover in the middle of the night & get a little frisky without them pushing you away.... God what heart break. 

My parents divorced, I survived. I believe in giving it a hell of an effort (from MY end to get things rolling- no one can say I didn't try when his drive was less than mine -ha ha) but the time would be short for me, if I seen Zero results, zero care, I'd be using a vibrator for a very short time indeed , then looking for a real man. 

The man who is a GIVER but also can forgive -is best to marry a woman with these same attributes about her, this will come back to bless you in many many many ways. Throw in that open honest communication, with listening & understanding, none of that passive aggressive junk and likely you have it sealed. Much hope there.

Life is too short to BURN with LUST while married, then the dance of bitterness & resentment , grand canyon divide .... perfect atmosphere to find some other temptations might just be TOO MUCH to bare. So best to get out before it comes to that.

My heart goes out to all of you stuck in this quagmire, especially you who have Physical touch as your #1 love language, I honestly don't know how you do it -without becoming NUMB to some degree.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Ladybird,

It's weird. . .let me speak to this since who knows. . .you may be in the "Considering Divorce" section nowadays.

A. I always say I wouldn't wish divorce on my worst enemy so don't take it lightly.
B. You'll find that divorce usually only moderately improves the reason you originally sought the divorce for. ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE"S KIDS.

For instance - no sex. Expect your sex to go from Never to Infrequently or Occasionally. If you are lucky to land yourself a guy in a serious relationship (not because of usual female fears for disclosure, but for simple logistics with children), you may get it "often."

Finances - you are tired of having no money. Well, that won't get any better with divorce.

See the pattern?

Now, that being said, if you haven't had sex for 2 years, your marriage IMO and SA's opinion and YOUR opinion is invalid. It's not there. In a way, it never existed (kinda the definition of annulment).

You are under no moral obligation to diagnose it, help him, or stay.

I wish you well.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

For me, it depends largely upon whether one has chosen to withhold sex or if sex just isn't an option due to real medical issues beyond their control. A partner who badly wants to but just can't is a different situation than one who willfully withholds sex. 

If it's determined that one spouse has been willfully withholding for a long time (several months, at least) and has made no effort to change, I suppose the aggrieved spouse owes only those moral obligations one extends to any other non-spouse human. The defrauded spouse may choose to tolerate the abuse for any number of reasons.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Enchantment:

This is a Marriage forum. . .and sometimes marriages reach their conclusion other than death, I guess.

I am open to the Conservative viewpoint and welcome it though. I am not trying to be liberal about this.

As far as I know, all churches have a "Get Out Of Jail" free card for a sexless marriage. And from what I understand, it's not to cast blame upon the person who is asexual; it's simply to alleviate suffering to both parties and especially to grant the right of the one human being to reproduce and be happy.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Unbelievable,

For the sake of discussion, we are talking about non-medical reasons, non-abuse reasons.

Although, it's an interesting scenario. A 22 year old woman marries a 38 year old man. He has an accident. No one's fault. He can't reproduce and is rendered sterile and impotent.

While it's terrible and no one's fault, I am not even sure *she's *morally obligated. Niow mind you, she shouldn't be out the door the next day. . .she should even be encouraged to remain a deep friend to the man and love him like we are supposed to love all others and even cherish their past connection. . .but I would say that their destiny would maybe be to not be married.

Of course, sometimes a partner can accept the circumstance. I know a couple where what I described above very closely happened to them. They've been happily married for 50+ years. Not saying the person HAS to file. Just discussing what the moral obligation is.

You can flip it as well and say something happens to the 22 year old woman.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

First I am excluding medical conditions. Even there though - there needs to be a good faith effort to doing what you can do. That said:
- Treating me without respect - I don't mean having a normal fight. produces a determined response along the lines of "this is not acceptable" within days.
- Sexless - one month would precipitate a talk
- two months would precipitate a unilateral choice for me to start actively looking for alternatives outside the marriage

But that is predicated on "indifference". I simply don't have much tolerance for indifference. We had a "once every 5 day" thing going on for 1.5 years or so. She had lost her desire for me "my fault" and it was an effort for her to connect with me. I didn't like the situation but I accepted that she was making a sincere effort to make the best of a difficult situation. It created a bit of conflict - nothing too serious. 

She loves me. So she would have to have a "sexual aversion" to me for us to be sexless. And if that happened then I would not leave her I would go outside the marriage. If she chose to leave ME at that point - I would be sad but accept it. 

The simplest way to put this is: I wouldn't divorce her over a lack of sex. I love her. However I would let her divorce me if she had an aversion to sex, and was adamant that I remain involuntarily celibate inCel. 

And yes - that would happen fairly quickly. I am not into dying a slow death. 



Scannerguard said:


> Enchantment:
> 
> This is a Marriage forum. . .and sometimes marriages reach their conclusion other than death, I guess.
> 
> ...


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> The simplest way to put this is: I wouldn't divorce her over a lack of sex. I love her. However I would let her divorce me if she had an aversion to sex, and was adamant that I remain involuntarily celibate inCel.


Well, I am not sure there is much of a difference of who is the Plantiff or who is the Defendent in the motion for filing for divorce.

And that's for a reason.

You are saying, "Well, I would never pull the trigger but if my wife did, oh well, I wouldn't stand in her way." Most of the time, the other spouse loves the other spouse anyway as you allege. That's why they want to have sex with them, MEM. I am not sure even loving the person has to do with the topic at hand (see above with terrible accident hypothetical)

That's essentially saying you wouldn't directly confront the issue of sexlessness and you would just cheat and then make her confront it, right?

Hey, not saying it's wrong, or right - I am just not sure it has to do with the topic at hand.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Hello, I shall now give my vague answer. I think it depends why the marriage is sexless or affectionate-less. Is that even a word? Well, it is now. What seems to be common in these scenarios are that needs of one kind or another aren't being met by both partners. So considering that, the answer for me is whether we can both get over our egos to see what we're doing, or not doing, in the relationship and then if both parties are making effort for themselves, their husband/wife, and the marriage, and positive changes begin as a result, then it's worth fighting for. There's no time-limit at that stage. It's a new journey.

Relationships can only work if both people are willing and able to turn things around. Although I think it can take time to even be able to see the part _we_ play in the relationship. If I was in a situation where I knew solidly the other person refused to acknowledge there were issues and wasn't willing to work on changing things together, it wouldn't take me long to cut my losses. I wouldn't stay if the love and effort was one-sided.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

*I think it depends why the marriage is sexless or affectionate-less. *

AHHHH! That's the crux, the absolute heart of the matter I am getting at. . .I am not sure it even mattters WHY after awhile.

Haven't we all learned from participating here that there are literally 1000's of reasons why? Some of them are very good and well thoughtout and perfectly reasonable.

There only "is". Or "Is not." (consummation) There is no "Why."

Or to borrow another great movie: "Mr. Gambini, that was a wonderfully worded, well researched, well thought-out objection.

OVERRULED!"

Now, let me back up a bit and say, I think also, in the same breath, there is some moral obligation of "investigation." But only so much.

The trick is figuring out where the balance between Investigation and Time Elapse lies, I think.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It isn't "cheating" when you tell them what you are going to do in advance. It is an "open marriage". Completely different. 

And I think you are missing the point. You basically asked what my "moral" obligation is in a sexless situation. And I answered. And you assume that she would divorce me. We don't know that. And I wouldn't go outside to punish her - but rather to keep my sanity. 

If she has a sexual aversion - that isn't a choice - it is a situation that "happened" to her. I would not leave her over that. But if she feels that she owns me sexually even though she is unwilling to connect - and feels that way so strongly that she would divorce me, I would not feel guilty. 





Scannerguard said:


> Well, I am not sure there is much of a difference of who is the Plantiff or who is the Defendent in the motion for filing for divorce.
> 
> And that's for a reason.
> 
> ...


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

The WHY actually is important. 

If loving affection ceases from a spouse that was once this way, there's a reason for this. It's partly them, it's partly their spouse. But there's a reason. And change needs to happen. I'm not suggesting hoops should be jumped through and I'm not suggesting that sex and affection should be used by either side of the fence as a bartering tool either. And for the record, physical affection, sex and feeling desired is EXTREMELY important to me. But I do think there's a why.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

MEM,

Ah, I get what you are saying now (well, a little).

If she has an aversion to you, and that goes on for months let's say, an "unexplained aversion" (or explained), then well, what?

You are still morally obligated to stay married but not morally obligated to stay monogamous?

I am stlll not sure what you are getting at.

Or let's flip it. . .she comes to the TAM Tribunal (consisting of 5 of us let's say) and says, "This is *why* I don't have sex with MEM. I have an aversion to him."

Okayyyyyyy. . .that's all very well, but IMO, you don't have any moral obligation to her at that point.

Now, her situation could make the "case" interesting. . ."I have an aversion to him because he is constantly drunk. I can't stand the smell of whiskey on him when I have sex."

Now, I do believe she has a legitimate gripe. Again, it goes to show though, it's really not about fault. . .at some point, it just arrives at "what is."

In that case, you could say alcohol led to the demise of the marriage.


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## brendan (Jun 1, 2011)

been a year for me and tried heaps of things to engage my wife into sex. tried a lot of tactics ( EVEN NOT TRYING or touching her at all) i tried.

Last month had a little success, bought a porno movie and watched it with her in bed - got her really turned on.
And also have been masturbating right next to her in bed which i never use to do and that is turning her right on, their the only things that are working. give that a go.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

okeydokie said:


> 37 minutes


:lol::lol: Not even 40, okeydokie?

I believe that marriage should be a lifelong commitment, but we do not live in a perfect world. Refusing to have sex is dishonoring the vows IMO.

Sex is very important to me, like breathing.  I would hang in there for up to 2 years.


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> Ladybird,
> 
> It's weird. . .let me speak to this since who knows. . .you may be in the "Considering Divorce" section nowadays.
> 
> ...


While I can't speak for ladybird by any means, being in a somewhat similar situation and with any luck out the door soon myself I would expound a bit on what you're pointing out.

Personally, I'm not leaving so that I can get laid. I'm leaving so that I can hopefully find someone who wants to love me completely.... including the physical. Without sex, we've lost all sense of connection and intimacy and apparently that's okay with him. We're close, comfortable roommates, but I really don't want to spend the next 40 years of my life splitting the bills with my "friend". And hey, if I don't, then at least I'm not being held back by someone who never wants to go anywhere or do anything.

I have yet to see any financial benefit to marriage. Granted, we have a nearly paid off house and no-children and we both make about the same, okay money so we reap the full benefit of the marriage penalty. As far as I can tell, with every calculation that I and my financial planner have run, I'll likely have more take-home if I'm single. 

Now I realize that's not the typical case, but what I will point out relates to the above. When you're stuck in a case where the other person isn't willing to compromise or try to work on issues like sex, companionship and financial difficulties, it all snowballs. If I truly felt like my husband were interested in making ONE area of our relationship better, it'd be a whole different ball of wax. If he were physically incapable of communicating with me, or sexual performance or whatever, it would be a different thing entirely. But as far as I know, he's capable of all those things and chooses not to do them. Or chooses not to do them with me, at any rate.

So, we're actually at a point of agreement that we're great in a house together, just not married and hopefully navigating an amicable parting soon. Since it's been two, maybe three years since we've had sex and I can't remember the last time we did anything just the two of us, we both realize our grand romance is over and it's time to move on before we hate each other, regardless of what the future brings.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Heartsbeating:

I think the why is important for doctors, therapists, family, friends, anyone with vested interest in the marriage as to prevent divorce or even possibly cure the dysfunction and they all live happily ever after.

But I am not sure the "Why" becomes central to the question of moral obligation.

But it's OK to disagree! If we both agreed in a conversation, then one of us is unneccesary as the saying goes


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Personally, I'm not leaving so that I can get laid.


GO,

And nobody is suggesting that.. .well someone who was complaining about sex all the time. . .it may be suggested "Well, all she wants is sex. There's more to marriage than that!"

But I don't see it like that and honestly, if your only plea to the Court of Scannerguard was,

"I am leaving because I want to get laid."

You know what? I could sign off on that.

You're right. . .it's just a nice roomie situation without the sex/affection. It's not shallow.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Well, you guys really gave me food for thought and a great discussion. Keep posting. Going to bed.

I would hope the therapists could pay attention to this question and wonder if it's something they use in "management" of a couple in therapy.

Like, would a therapist inform them both, in a non-confrontational way as possible (as to not point blame or get into why's), that if they don't have sex soon, the marriage will become invalid and you will then not have any obligation to each other. Both of you will be free to go with no fault or blame assigned. 

I wonder if it was put that way to couples in therapy, if they understood the full consequences, if maybe more marriages couldn't be saved?

Maybe not though. I am NOT a marriage counselor, only a budding student of moral and religious doctrine (I don't practice any religion).

Maybe one partner is like, "You know what? I don't give a F. I'm right." I dunno. I would think such an explanation could be very motivating. . .as almost you are removing the label of "married" on them.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Just so we're clear, deliberate, willful withholding of sex from one's married partner is abuse and it's considerably more evil than punching one in the face. If I leave my child outdoors in the rain or if I refuse to feed her, I'm guilty of child abuse. If I don't feed my dog for months, I'm guilty of animal abuse. A husband is responsible for taking care of the sexual needs of his wife and a wife is responsible for taking care of the husband's reasonable sexual needs. There are loads of reasons why I may not feel like feeding my kid or my dog but no court is gonna care. It's the responsibility I assumed when I became parent or pet owner and if I neglect my responsibility, I would be an abuser. If someone wants to withhold from their spouse, they are free to do so, but they should at least be honest about who they are and what they're doing.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Just so we're clear, deliberate, willful withholding of sex from one's married partner is abuse and it's considerably more evil than punching one in the face. If I leave my child outdoors in the rain or if I refuse to feed her, I'm guilty of child abuse. If I don't feed my dog for months, I'm guilty of animal abuse. A husband is responsible for taking care of the sexual needs of his wife and a wife is responsible for taking care of the husband's reasonable sexual needs. There are loads of reasons why I may not feel like feeding my kid or my dog but no court is gonna care. It's the responsibility I assumed when I became parent or pet owner and if I neglect my responsibility, I would be an abuser. If someone wants to withhold from their spouse, they are free to do so, but they should at least be honest about who they are and what they're doing.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Deep sigh. OK - so these are all fair points. First of all - my W absolutely WOULD tell me WHY she had an aversion if it were linked to something behavioral - smell of alcohol - being drunk. Getting skinny (when I did get skinny that actually did cause a loss of desire but not outright aversion). If it is even semi-reasonable and it is behavioral/fixable and I don't fix it - that's on me and I have no right to complain. 

I am not talking about that. I am talking about something she doesn't even understand the cause of. Cannot fix and can't seem to get past. So she has a sexual aversion but it is not fixable. At that point I openly go outside the marriage. And the reason for that is simple. In reverse even WITH a sexual aversion I would perform for her twice a week even if I hated it - so that she didn't feel awful ALL THE TIME. 

And if I couldn't bring myself to do so - I sure wouldn't tell her she had to be celibate. 




Scannerguard said:


> MEM,
> 
> Ah, I get what you are saying now (well, a little).
> 
> ...


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> Ladybird,
> 
> It's weird. . .let me speak to this since who knows. . .you may be in the "Considering Divorce" section nowadays.
> 
> ...


Divorce is not something I am taking lightly. Quite the opposite actually. 

I am broke now and i know it will not change when i leave.. I will more then likely be more broke then i am now.

Sex is not the entire issue, only part of the issue. It is also affectionate less.There is nothing left for me here.. He will not try.. What is the other option for me because i do not see any other option at this point. I am not happy and haven't been in quite a while. 

I have no plans on pursuing a relationship with anyone for a very long time. No sex for a while fine, i can live with that is everything else i cant live with out.

you say help him.. How am I supposed to so that when he wont talk to me.. He wont even try... How can i help him when he wont help himself.

I am not leaving him to get laid.. I am leaving him in the hopes that i will be able to pick of the pieces of my shattered life and maybe one day find a man who will LOVE me how i need to be loved. I need affection more then anything else and i am not getting it from my husband.

We do have a 2 year old son together..

Quite frankly i am starving and he will not feed me in any way shape or form.

I woke up a few days ago with the realization that things are not going to change. I have mourned for him for the last 2 years. crying everyday, depression, every emotion you can think i have gone through. The 2 choice i had to make were these

1. stay married to a man who pretty much wants nothing to do with me. Does not show any type of affection.
2. Give him until February if nothing changes (which i am sure it wont change) then i move out and file for divorce.


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## Pandakiss (Oct 29, 2010)

i am reading a lot about sex in a marriage is being compared to not feeding your kids, or pets....

i think its the same thing. sex is the brains and the heart of the marriage. if you dont feed the marriage, you killing the desire, your killing your soul, and ripping out your heart. and it can take a toll on you mentally. you can loose focus at work, and loose the wanting for a better life.

if you dont feed the dog, he will be angry and snap-ish, the cat will resort to bitting, and scratching, and meowing at all hours. and lets face it, kids can get quiet pissy if they dont eat.

a dare, of sorts:
ladies, how do you think your husband will respond to this:

honey, we will not be having sexual relations any more, no sexual touching, no kissing, no hugging. i will lock the bathroom door when i shower, and i will no longer change clothes in front of you.{this is not anything to do based on medical reasoning, but just because you feel like it}

now the 2nd part:
honey, you will remain faithful, wear your wedding ring, buy me gifts, still support me financially, and support me in everyday life. i will still get moneys as support, and we will still do all the everyday chores. {of course the kids will be taken care of...}


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> Heartsbeating:
> 
> I think the why is important for doctors, therapists, family, friends, anyone with vested interest in the marriage as to prevent divorce or even possibly cure the dysfunction and they all live happily ever after.
> 
> ...


Aha, moral obligation. Maybe I wasn't thinking along these lines which is why our wires are crossed. Or maybe you will still disagree but I don't think of it this way. I think of it as loving each other and both people making effort to make things work .....which is where my reasoning as to the importance of 'why' comes in. As I said before though, if I put my best foot forward and my spouse refused to see there were issues and wasn't willing to make changes, then to be honest I wouldn't stick around for very long. The relationship can't be one-sided.

Moral obligation to me means doing what's needed for me, him, and us. If I'd done all that I could, truly, and not just what I thought was needed (there's a difference), then I've done what I felt was obligated of me in that situation. Does that make sense? I personally don't feel morally obligated to stay just because of being married. I do feel obligated to make effort, real hard effort if needed, because I love him though.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Less than 6 months, I wouldn't last at all, and I would be so darn vocal about what I wanted, he would want rid of me. Yes, I would be reduced to a whining *****ing baby. Glad I ain't married to this or I would be one of your more disgrunted posters.


Yea...I thought this too, until shet hit the fan and I had to really make a choice.

I chose to ride it out and see where it went. Sure, I could have thrown fits (believe me, I wanted to) but it wouldn't have helped anything.

We're doing ok (after 3 months he moved back) and I think it will be good.

I just don't know how anyone can answer this until they are in the situation. If it's abuse or sexless...well...maybe 6 months or less...probably 1 month as we are usually very sexual. One month without sex would make me say, "WTF?"


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## JRG (Feb 26, 2011)

ladybird said:


> Divorce is not something I am taking lightly. Quite the opposite actually.
> 
> I am broke now and i know it will not change when i leave.. I will more then likely be more broke then i am now.
> 
> ...


First, to "Unbelievable". You say it bluntly and with an anger in your tone...but I agree. It is cruel. It is exceedingly painful to the one being withdrawn from. And I've used all those same analogies you did...I agree. 

To LadyBird (who I THINK I've spoken with before on a different website). I'm sorry you've moved into divorce mode...the last I heard from you, you were still putting up the fight, only weeks ago. I think I'm at that edge also. 

And one of the stinky things about this is that, ending a year ago, we came off a year of connection and togetherness. Then she distanced again (something she'd done before in our 20+year marriage) and shut down. Several weeks ago, I told her that if she wants a divorce, let's start looking at the papers now. You know, that made her horny for two days before she freaked out and withdrew again?!?!

I think that, for some people, "asexuality" is an easy way out. Making it a biological imperative, like homosexuality versus heterosexuality, conveniently absolves the person of calling it what it is..."I value myself, me, I...what I want...and it's not important for me to grow back toward you." "I just don't want to try, you're not important enough to me." I know that, in my wife's case, she has been sexual. Never a HUGE sex drive, mind you (except in the first couple of years of our relationship), but most certainly not asexual. And, most recently...well, you can't fake a year of clearly being in unity and enjoying sexual connection with your partner, and you can't even fake those recent two days I mentioned above. I believe even my wife doesn't buy her "asexuality" line...that she knows her energies will suddenly reemerge once she's free of the "oppression" of having a marital commitment. 

This is about not wanting to put your energy into your partner and your marriage. This is about an unwillingness to commit, to not valuing the gifts you've got. This is about pure selfishness and unwillingness to find a middle ground that both can be content with. "Unbelievable" is right...it's cruel.

When we make those marital vows, it's supposed to mean that our partner is NOT disposable...that we will ALWAYS consider his/her needs at an equal level with our own. My wife would prefer the "easy" route...divorce...rather than overcome the shut-down train and lead her heart, rather than the other way around. Love can be renewed eternally if you're committed...I've renewed it many times with my wife. But she is so convinced that her "true self" is uninterested in being married, so she won't do anything to steer herself back. No dates, no massages, no loving exercises. Won't go back to a workshop that turned her into her marriage two years ago. Won't do Mort Fertel stuff or Intimacy workshops or "Divorce Buster" stuff or anything to try to rebuild toward the marriage...only interested in "finding herself" and "being true to her inner voice". Emotions are fickle...they change. It's what you have the courage to commit to, to say, "This is sacred," that matters. 

That's me from over two decades speaking. That me is finally dying out. My 11-year-old son and his belief in the sanctity of his parents' marriage will be one casualty.


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## JRG (Feb 26, 2011)

Oh, and I also agree with Ladybird on another topic: It's not just about sex. While sex is certainly an amazing way to communicate "I love you and care about you", there's a lot more to it. Withdrawal of intimate hugs...affectionate words...touches, looks in the eye. And the message..."I won't work on growing myself in this way, even though I know you need it to feel loved"...is such a stab in the heart. :-(


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## DriverAnt (Sep 30, 2011)

Been married 26 years. I waited too long and believe we will divorce in the end because our marriage is almost totally sexless now. In some ways it seems that I've wasted my life but I know it wasn't really a waste. Now I kinda wish I would have just ended it a long time ago. As it is now I fear that time has run out for me to start over again.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

JRG said:


> First, to "Unbelievable". You say it bluntly and with an anger in your tone...but I agree. It is cruel. It is exceedingly painful to the one being withdrawn from. And I've used all those same analogies you did...I agree.
> 
> To LadyBird (who I THINK I've spoken with before on a different website). I'm sorry you've moved into divorce mode...the last I heard from you, you were still putting up the fight, only weeks ago. I think I'm at that edge also.
> 
> ...


I can't fight anymore... I have no fight left in me. I have worn my self out emotionally and mentally and there is nothing else. It is time for me to just to give up. I have however let everything go... I am no longer angry, depressed, resentful. I haven't cried in the last 2 days.. I haven't felt this way in such a long time. My thoughts are together without them running at 1million miles an hour. I have let go.. If he decides that he wants to change the future then fine..I am willing to work with him.. Then he will get the ball rolling. I am done talking and trying to get him to understand because it has not worked and in my mind he just doesn't care.

What website??


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM suppose your wife had a aversion to you and not sex, it happens. You exercised your option to cheat and consider it an open marriage. She accepts an open marriage because she loves you too and you get along well. The problem of sexlessness is solved you are both having sex albeit not with each others. She did not exercise her option to divorce you but takes advantage of the open marriage to continue to enjoy sex. Being a fair woman, she invites you to exercise your option of divorcing her as well. Would this arrangement be consistent with an open marriage for you?

I thought it was interesting that a previous poster presented this scenario but seemed loath to consider the obvious, she would no more want to be celebrate than you would. It is so difficult to deal with cheating wives even hypothetically, that it can't be spoken of or does not even enter the discussion? That surprises be given the numerous treads about cheating wives. Even cheating woman who are not sexual with their husbands. 

It seems that sexlessness in a marriage does not necessarily mean an asexual woman.. About the best you can say is that she is not sexual with her partner. There are plenty of post by woman who report an aversion to their husband but, not to sex. These are probably the women who make up a sizable proportion of cheaters. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## YupItsMe (Sep 29, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> YupItsMe:
> 
> Thanks for the share.
> 
> ...



To be clear she had the low sex drive. I read 30 books and 100 web artciles on what the problems were and fixed it. Now she and I have a hot sex life like newlys again. I was an idiot meeting the needs of a women over the long term defined as more than 3 years. 

I have a list of what I do to meet her needs. When I do, she takes her panties off and jumps me all the time. The key to making a marriage work is the man has to go first. Women react to what men do. Most men eff it up because they cant figure out what women need and women suck at telling men in a way that can be comprehended by men.

in terms of the moral question, I say its the wrong question so its irrelevent. The right question is how do I fix my marriage so we have hot newlys sex again?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Just so we're clear, deliberate, willful withholding of sex from one's married partner is abuse and it's considerably more evil than punching one in the face.


Not withstanding all the foldeerol in the bible about "not denying your husband / wife" etc, in a Church of England wedding, _no-one promises to actually have sex with anyone_. You promise *not* to have sex with anyone else, and you're told you CAN have sex with your partner. You might expect it, but it's like expecting your partner helps with the chores - it might be a reasonable expectation, but no-one is obligated by oath to do it.

On the other hand, a punch in the face is common assault anywhere and is against the law just about everywhere.


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## FirstYearDown (Sep 15, 2011)

ladybird said:


> Divorce is not something I am taking lightly. Quite the opposite actually.
> 
> I am broke now and i know it will not change when i leave.. I will more then likely be more broke then i am now.
> 
> ...


Just do whatever makes you happy. Nobody can tell you to stay with your husband if you are so miserable.


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## JRG (Feb 26, 2011)

ladybird said:


> I can't fight anymore... I have no fight left in me. I have worn my self out emotionally and mentally and there is nothing else. It is time for me to just to give up. I have however let everything go... I am no longer angry, depressed, resentful. I haven't cried in the last 2 days.. I haven't felt this way in such a long time. My thoughts are together without them running at 1million miles an hour. I have let go.. If he decides that he wants to change the future then fine..I am willing to work with him.. Then he will get the ball rolling. I am done talking and trying to get him to understand because it has not worked and in my mind he just doesn't care.
> 
> What website??


I know exactly how you feel, ladybird. The whole giving up thing after fighting for so long. *SIGH* Do note, however, that we can give up...but then something may spark that married spirit in us again and, all of a sudden, the desire to save the marriage is back in our faces. I've danced that dance, too. Just when I think I'm ready to possibly let go...my married self plays peek-a-boo with me again.

I live in Miami and went to the website I mentioned above..."******************". There's someone within 40 minutes driving distance who appears to be in the exact same boat as am I...doesn't want to let the marriage end, has a committment to it, but needs her needs for love and intimacy met. I'm actually considering going that route...with my wife's knowledge and directive to do so as a requirement. If I'm going to consider this, it has to be with her knowledge and it has to be with someone in the same position that I'm in. 

It's not what I wanted, though.


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

I personally see that the problem with marraige is selfishness. If I made a vow (regardless of what "Faith" you believe in), I made it before a group of people, my "Faith's deity" and to my spouse. I made a vow to my spouse to make/keep her happy to be best of my abilities. 

Now if I'm not physically incapable of preforming sex, then their is literally no excuse why I shouldn't be humpping the life out of my wife (and vice versa). 

I see that many people in the world now are so caught up in something else other than their spouse. If don't understand why it's like this. Home is where the heart is, we all (most of us) in this forum are married. I have been married for 7 years (my wife and I have been together for 8 years), why would I let outside situations challenge the vow I made before my God to make/keep my wife happy through the good times and the bad? 

That's why I say people have become selfish. "Because I'm not in the mood", "because I didn't get that promotion", "because I've gained weight", "because you're flirting to much at work", "just because"..., etc.... I just don't understand it. 

It doesn't matter how long you wait, if you're waiting more than a week without sex to me something is very wrong. Months and Years means you (or your spouse) isn't living up to their end of the bargain. It's not a "Moral Obligation" it's a duty that you must fulfill (like taking a piss or a poop, no matter how long you hold it, you have to let it out). No one put a gun to your head when you made your vows to this person so what happened?

You see this is a personal issue to me. For the past Five years my wife has come up with every excuse under the sun as to why sex isn't her concern anymore. In my case when sex is down to 1-3 times a month (_twice in June, Once in July, twice in August and Three times this month. I am keeping a log of this year and last year to show her physical proof of how sex deprived I am, and that it's not helping our marraige. The sex average for this year is 2.23 times a month_). Every year the sex has been cut in half,..literally. So that means next year will be sex once a month. I'm seriously at my wits end about this situation. 

Yes there were times books would help (back in 2009). But she chose to stop reading those books after two months (which helped her get in the mood every single time, multiple times a day), which means she's not interested in sex with me anymore. Their were times she's used physical excuses, mental excuses, the not in the mood, the life's to stressful (like I said, every excuse under the sun, she's even pulled the "I'll make it up to you"). I'm 28 and she's 27, how much longer should I wait? 

This is why I said it's selfishness. She's become to self absorbed and neglects I (her husbands) needs. 

Oh and Enchantment, I know you're going to read this, she refused to get tested for Hypothyroidism. Even though she seems to have all the symptom (especially the puffy hands), but it baffles me how for the first three years we were together sex was so frequent that I was getting a BJ while eating a steak dinner :smthumbup:. I miss those days


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Catherine,
I absolutely believe that sexual "aversion" is partner specific. They are not averse to sex, they are averse to sex with YOU. 

I would tell my W these are the ground rules for both of us: Don't ask. Don't tell. 

And the thought of her being with someone else makes me physically sick. So ummm I would bury my head in the sand.




Catherine602 said:


> MEM suppose your wife had a aversion to you and not sex, it happens. You exercised your option to cheat and consider it an open marriage. She accepts an open marriage because she loves you too and you get along well. The problem of sexlessness is solved you are both having sex albeit not with each others. She did not exercise her option to divorce you but takes advantage of the open marriage to continue to enjoy sex. Being a fair woman, she invites you to exercise your option of divorcing her as well. Would this arrangement be consistent with an open marriage for you?
> 
> I thought it was interesting that a previous poster presented this scenario but seemed loath to consider the obvious, she would no more want to be celebrate than you would. It is so difficult to deal with cheating wives even hypothetically, that it can't be spoken of or does not even enter the discussion? That surprises be given the numerous treads about cheating wives. Even cheating woman who are not sexual with their husbands.
> 
> ...


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Catherine,
> I absolutely believe that sexual "aversion" is partner specific. They are not averse to sex, they are averse to sex with YOU.
> 
> I would tell my W these are the ground rules for both of us: Don't ask. Don't tell.
> ...


True, that's why I said in my post my wife isn't interested in sex with *me *anymore. I've discussed the open marraige thing a couple of years back with my wife. She was/is 200% against it. Her point was "If you're going to screw other people, then you might as well divorce me because the thought of another women being with you is to much for me to bear". 

Then the next year she had an affair...:rofl: Looks like for the past four years I'm the one who's been having to bear that thought. While the guy got what he wanted and moved to Florida the next week, she was crying for days because she felt so stupid and used. Anyway this isn't my thread, sorry for the hijack.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think that sex issues are often just "the canary in the coal mine". There are usually underlying relational, behavioral, and even physical issues that precipitate and facilitate the sex going in to the weeds. THOSE are the primary drivers that need to be ferreted out and addressed in a marriage.

I commented earlier that I was in it for the long haul. This is simply a statement of commitment. To me, if you can go in to something (like marriage) where you know you can get out easily if things don't go your way or become 'too hard', are you more or less likely to try harder if you encounter turbulence? I would postulate you are likely to try less hard than you would otherwise. You would also be more likely to enter in to the situation a lot less carefully.

“_Marriage is not a noun; it's a verb. It isn't something you get. It's something you do. It's the way you love your partner every day_.” ~ Barbara De Angelis 

And Scannerguard, in your opening post about the woman you met who you said you admired because she knew when to cut her losses - maybe it's not so admirable if you look at it instead as a person who knows not how to make a commitment. To me, being able to make a commitment and upholding (and choosing wisely who you will make a commitment with) - that is much more admirable than one who always just 'cuts their losses' and makes poor choices.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> And Scannerguard, in your opening post about the woman you met who you said you admired because she knew when to cut her losses - maybe it's not so admirable if you look at it instead as a person who knows not how to make a commitment. To me, being able to make a commitment and upholding (and choosing wisely who you will make a commitment with) - that is much more admirable than one who always just 'cuts their losses' and makes poor choices.
> __________________


Enchantment,

And honestly, that was my first "gut reaction" - this woman doesn't understand marriage and committment.

But when I reflected on it and the long time I was overinvested, I thought, "Well, in a way, she was the smart one." I think 6 months was certainly too soon though but we have one poster here saying that was appropriate to realize a mistake has been had.

MEM has informed us 2 months and he's banging his secretary .

I get what you are saying though. Really, like I said, I don't want to bias the discussion towards a Liberal Morality. I appreciate your Conservative Morality on this.

Ladybird,

Go back and read my post again. I didn't say to fight for it. You are doing the usual "Self-Talk" that a lot of pre-divorcees go through.

I said just the opposite - you are morally absolved of any duty at this point to your spouse being sexless for 2 years despite yours and his best efforts. Go. Be free. Be happy.

*Scannerguard doing cryptic hand motions*

Unbelievable,

While I understand the anger in the tone of your voice, I just don't know if I can accept the position that withholding sex = physical child abuse from a moral standpoint. It certainly be "cruel" if it's contrived, but most of the time I am not sure how "contrived" it is.

I think some women use sex for manipulative purposes but I don't think most women wake up and say, "I want XXXX. Until I get it, I'm not having sex with husband."

Some women do that. But I would hope it's more the exception than the rule.

Maybe. Women?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> I think some women use sex for manipulative purposes but I don't think most women wake up and say, "I want XXXX. Until I get it, I'm not having sex with husband."
> 
> Some women do that. But I would hope it's more the exception than the rule.
> 
> Maybe. Women?


I've no idea how many women are cunning and manipulative wives. I would think that would take too much energy all the time. 

I do see many women who have become disenchanted - disappointed - with their husbands and marriages. Their attraction to their spouse wanes because of that and sex becomes non-existant or a chore at that point. That still points to relational issues being the underlying theme. There are many threads on the forum reflecting this.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> I do see many women who have become disenchanted - disappointed - with their husbands and marriages.


And I would say that's a good reason to not have sex. Again, it's another "Why" I can totally 100% accept as valid. They should be free to move on and find what it is they seek.

When women or men are confronted with this reason why, I am reminded of the movie Jerry Maguire (see? I like a chick flick):

_ 
I'll tell you why you don't
have your million.
When you get on the field,
it's all about what you didn't get. Who's to blame. Who's got
the contract you didn't get. Who didn't get you the ball.

*That *is not what inspires people!
_

I try to remember that when I feel myself getting "disappointed" or "whiney."


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Lots of men are disenchanted with many aspects of their wife's performance. Does that give them to right to withhold financial support, drop the wife from family health coverage, refuse to protect her, etc? If they are that disenchanted, they are welcome to fix things or leave. Don't hang around reaping the benefits of marriage while ignoring the responsibilities that accompany marriage.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Scanner, 

Anyone with command over their mouth, hands, and/or genitals has the ability to give their spouse sexual pleasure. Not doing so amounts to deliberate, willful, intentional, evil, low-down, treacherous, abusive, fraudulent behavior. One can dress it up and slap a little lipstick on it, but it's still what it is.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't know your story U but I'll bet you are in a toxic soup. 

You must get out of it. It is destroying you! You are not deserving of what ever evil is being heaped on you and it has got to be horrendous to make you think the way you do. 

Come out of that dark life no matter what it takes. Heal and then open your mind to the possibility that all women are not like the woman who is making your life a misery. What ever it is that is holding you in stop, throw it off and give yourself permission to go. 

A transformation from how you are now to how you could be would be an excellent example to people in despair. Don't deny yourself the gift of a good life with a good woman and others the gift of seeing you beat this thing you are in. No one as strong as you is meant to hide their talents under a basket. 

Please show the people on TAM how its done! Others on this forum in more despair that you have gotten out from under and come back to tell their story of victory. Do you think that you don't deserve to be among them. Just do it and get the support a couching you need from the sages in the Mems Clubhouse. 

Come on let's see what ya got!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If viewing the world with clarity puts one in a toxic soup, I'd have to say more people should join me. Tired of people who carry the title of parent without actually being parents, carry the title of "husband" or "wife" without actually carrying the responsibility. I'm not anti-women or anti-marriage. I'm anti "sorry" and find dishonorable people distasteful regardless of their gender. I'm not in despair. Without the intoxicating influence of sex to cloud my male vision, I'm free to see the world as it really is. It's quite liberating, actually. If there's a great argument to be made against premarital sex it's that sex frequently turns men stupid and influences them to sign up with partners they would avoid if they were sane.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

unbelievable said:


> If viewing the world with clarity puts one in a toxic soup, I'd have to say more people should join me. Tired of people who carry the title of parent without actually being parents, carry the title of "husband" or "wife" without actually carrying the responsibility. I'm not anti-women or anti-marriage. I'm anti "sorry" and find dishonorable people distasteful regardless of their gender. I'm not in despair. Without the intoxicating influence of sex to cloud my male vision, I'm free to see the world as it really is. It's quite liberating, actually. If there's a great argument to be made against premarital sex it's that sex frequently turns men stupid and influences them to sign up with partners they would avoid if they were sane.


Helluva post, unbelievable. Caught a little bit of lightning there.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Lots of men are disenchanted with many aspects of their wife's performance. Does that give them to right to withhold financial support, drop the wife from family health coverage, refuse to protect her, etc? If they are that disenchanted, they are welcome to fix things or leave. Don't hang around reaping the benefits of marriage while ignoring the responsibilities that accompany marriage.


If, as a woman, I took this advice and let it be known that my husband wasn't acting like a "man" and taking out the garbage without being asked, and his farting in front of company was rude, and it was inconsiderate of him to oggle that girl that just walked by, I could go on and on. And I would be a nag and a you know what and I wouldn't have to worry about having sex again. But, hey, I'm living up to my end of the obligation and expressing my concerns instead of denying sex.

Women are supposed to support the ego, smile, joke, be happy, never complain, and for gosh sakes don't bring up "issues".
So it travels to the bedroom instead.

Women and men need to know they are wanted. In their own way. Women connect those "issues" to sex. Sorry, that's the way it is. There are a LOT of things men do that piss women off. A lot.
to keep it out of the bedroom takes a well balanced person. 

Isn't there an obligation to help each other GROW to be a balanced person? I think there is. 

I also think that INTIMACY is different from sex. 
If there is adequate intimacy, that should be enough. 
Sex itself is an act that is not necessary. Really. Showing someone you care does not require penetration. But it is a requirement to show you care.


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## Elliott (Sep 13, 2011)

It's a lack of motivation. 

We're motivated to go to work to make money. We're motivated to kiss our mother/grandmother because that show of affection bring happiness amongst you. 

We're motivated to keep reading this thread because it relates to us, we can find insight. Sadly some men/women are not motivated to have sex unless there is "gain". Most trophy wives are motivated by the money/status. Once that goes, they move onto the next male victim. 

Honestly I live in America and my parents are from the Caribbean. They tell me all the time, Only in America is divorce so easy to do, with no second thought. In other parts of the world they take marraige and all that comes with it literally "Till death do you part". The cost of being outcasted (is that even a word :scratchhead because you're divorced is to much for the people to bear. My mom told me the day before I married my wife, I chose for her to take my name and have my children, so I have to be dedicated to work it out with her (my wife) no matter what. Because in the end, when you divorce and remarry or keep dating, those unresolved issues from your previous marraige never get dealt with. Thus you spend the rest of your life carrying it around. 

What my mother said is true, though my parents divorced 16 years ago, they both still carry around some grudges and issues from when they were married. 

So when you loose your motivation to do something, you no longer see pleasure in it, or even care about it. Sadly, to many husbands (and wives) are in a marraige where their "other half" isn't motivated to please them.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Talking about differences, working to fix problems, these are productive and necessary corrective measures. Withholding sex is unproductive. It invariably ends badly, so why would anyone condone, excuse, or encourage another to commit relationship suicide? Nowhere have I suggested that either party simply tolerate disrespectful behavior. If you burn your finger, you treat the finger, you don't blow your brains out. Refusing sex is basically divorcing your spouse without the property exchange. It's relationship suicide and not a sensible corrective action plan to cure other problems in the marriage.


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## DennisNLA (Jan 26, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> Hmmmm... I thought this was a marriage forum.
> 
> Why is a sexless marriage different than one where say, there are financial problems, or health problems, or family problems, or emotional problems, or any number of other problems?
> 
> While I believe it is a personal decision on leaving, for me, unless there's cheating (I'm gone immediately) or abuse (I'm gone immediately), then "for better or worse" and "in sickness and in health" applies. I am in it for the LONG HAUL. Just me. YMMV.


Long term repeated withholding and rejection of sex is abuse. Using sex as a punishment or manipulation is abuse.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

U, I agree. With-holding sex is a cruel thing to do. It's hurtful. I know how it feels. I think it is wrong. Refusing to solve issues in the marriage is not acceptable. 

Elliot, very well said. Lessons in life, learn now or next relationship.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> Unbelievable,
> 
> For the sake of discussion, we are talking about non-medical reasons, non-abuse reasons.
> 
> ...


I have to dissagree with you on this one...that is a terrible example for what we are discussing in here...sex isn't only intercourse, there are lots of other things that are considered SEX...they still have options if they were to still be thinking "family"...adoption or artificial insemination are two that come to mind as possible answers to the situation...

I mean would you really encourage someone to "kick him while he is down"? Yes, there is no way for him to pass on his genes, but that doesn't mean he can't be a father and pass on his beliefs and values...and it also doesn't mean that her feelings for the man are gone along with the possibility of carrying his child...

I mean really, this falls under the "for better or worse, in sickness and health" statements that we all uttered on that day...or maybe you forgot about that part??

I'm sure I'm not alone in this opinion, and it may already have been mentioned...but I didn't make it past this post and felt I had to comment...

No, I'm not religious...so this isn't coming from that angle...I just think that if they got married for the right reasons and loved each other, they would find a way to work through it...

Later.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Yes, it is viewed as abuse by men. And it is. 

It is also viewed as "abuse" by a lot of women to expect that she will give it up regardless of what is going on. 

I don't know how else to word this?

Day after day. tiny little comments, the disapperance of compliments, forgetting to do things, sliding into a mother child relationship ever so slowly. Not noticing a new haircut. Staying out too long with friends. Not noticing that was tired, not doing the things that you did when you dated. Not making an effort. Taking her for granted.
It builds up slowly, but every single woman I know has this brewing at some level or another. All of them. 

There is no real advice out there for women. How do you not take this personally? Well, everyone feels that way. That's marriage. Really? That sucks. And everyone starts to feel used. 

The worst part about all of this? About this time... men tend to start talking about needs. Sex may have decreased because of busy schedules, children, life in general. But now it's being put on the table as an obligation. That resentment comes in. Gee, I'm doing the best I can do here... life is busy. And you don't treat me the same way you did before we got married. And so starts the tape reels about all the tiny little comments, and so builds an excuse to say no. 

After that, it becomes uncomfortable. Demands to show me you care. 
Once in this rut, few people know how to get out.

I'm not condoning it. At all. Just an insight into how it happens.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

deejov said:


> I also think that INTIMACY is different from sex.
> If there is adequate intimacy, that should be enough.
> Sex itself is an act that is not necessary. Really. Showing someone you care does not require penetration. But it is a requirement to show you care.


I don't totally agree with this statement either...maybe this is true for women, but from my stand point...SEX is INTIMACY...not completely but it is the end result to me...I do however agree that "Showing someone you care does not require penetration"...but to me being intimate leads to an orgasm brought on by someone other than yourself (I guess you can have a private intimate moment...but that's not what we are talking about here)

To me having an intimate evening without the sex (penetration or not) is just teasing me...and I would rather not have it...but I don't just want the sex either...to me it's a package deal...

Later.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

DennisNLA said:


> Long term repeated withholding and rejection of sex is abuse. Using sex as a punishment or manipulation is abuse.


Yah, I purposefully did not define what abuse is because there will be differences in opinion between what people think is abusive. 

I tend to think that for many couples, long term repeated withholding and rejection of sex is most typically symptomatic of other issues that need to be addressed in a marriage. It's usually a result of a complex symbiotic relationship between both partners.

As deejov pointed out, it's pretty hard to be intimate with someone that repeatedly withholds emotional succor and caring to you - is this withholder of emotional caring then considered abusive too?


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Anyone with command over their mouth, hands, and/or genitals has the ability to give their spouse sexual pleasure. Not doing so amounts to deliberate, willful, intentional, evil, low-down, treacherous, abusive, fraudulent behavior. One can dress it up and slap a little lipstick on it, but it's still what it is.


Unbelievable,

No, I disagree. It's not "evil behavior" - it may "marriage-nullifying-behavior", it may relieve the other partner of any "moral obligation to the other" after a long period of time. It could be a lot of things.

But it's not "evil", unless the intent is perhaps malevolent (to harm your spouse).

You could actually posit that to force another spouse into sex under some "obligation" is an evil practiced in many societies.

Your posts could come dangerously close as endorsing that.

I do fear you are embarking down the Dark Side. . .you are already square in anger, bordering on hate. . .suffering is right around the corner.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> have to dissagree with you on this one...that is a terrible example for what we are discussing in here...sex isn't only intercourse, there are lots of other things that are considered SEX...they still have options if they were to still be thinking "family"...adoption or artificial insemination are two that come to mind as possible answers to the situation...



Coldshoulder,

Absolutely, if hte other party consents to this arrangement. I am only saying there's no moral obligation for a woman in this type of scenario (or man) to carry through with surrogates, artificial insemination, and so on.



> I mean would you really encourage someone to "kick him while he is down"? Yes, there is no way for him to pass on his genes, but that doesn't mean he can't be a father and pass on his beliefs and values...and it also doesn't mean that her feelings for the man are gone along with the possibility of carrying his child...


I thought I made it clear that she shouldn't be out the next day and that she should have "some obligation" as a friend. . .but I am not sure the state of "matrimony" can exist in this sterile state.

"A sterile marriage may not be a marriage at all" is what I am wondering is true, that's all.



> I mean really, this falls under the "for better or worse, in sickness and health" statements that we all uttered on that day...or maybe you forgot about that part??


But I think a person's right to reproduce overrides that, no? Honestly, you have really presented a point I may research with moral Christian doctrine:

If consummation can't be acheived due to a physical reason, is the marriage still valid (and therefore vows appropriate)? Honestly, I don't know.



> I'm sure I'm not alone in this opinion, and it may already have been mentioned...but I didn't make it past this post and felt I had to comment...


I appreciate it.



> No, I'm not religious...so this isn't coming from that angle...I just think that if they got married for the right reasons and loved each other, they would find a way to work through it...


Not having physical sex is a hard thing to "work through" even if it's no one's fault.

Marriage was designed a "reproduction of families" of sorts from our ancestors. It's tribal in nature. There are others with a vested interest in this, as well as mainly the couple. This isn't to be cruel. . .only to try to, without emotion, just to figure out what the moral obligation is.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Elliot:



> Because in the end, when you divorce and remarry or keep dating, those unresolved issues from your previous marraige never get dealt with. Thus you spend the rest of your life carrying it around.


So true! I appreciated your post a lot.

It's really a subject for "General Discussion" and probably one that has been had before, but How Long is a Marriage supposed to last?

In years past (and you could say cultures in the Caribbean aren't as "modern" as post-industrial USA), women were married around 16 years old as per Laura Ingalls. It was often to an older man, maybe in his 20's or late 20's.

They had kids as Social Security to care for the mother because the man probably lived to 40-60 before kicking the bucket and Doc Baker applying leeches to him.

So, they were lucky if they made it to a Silver Anniversary, let alone a Golden Annivesary.

Now with advances in medicine, and upcoming anti-aging interventions, how long are we supposed to be married for? 50 years? 75 years? 100 years to the same person?

Do I even want the anti-aging drugs, lol?

Anyway, a seperate topic as to explain perhaps cultural differences somewhat. My point is I wonder if the institution of marriage will evolve at some point in time from "Death Do Us Part" to "Stage 1: Raising Kids"; "Stage 2: Empty Nest"; "Stage 3: Dentures." or whatever.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

deejov said:


> Yes, it is viewed as abuse by men. And it is.
> 
> It is also viewed as "abuse" by a lot of women to expect that she will give it up regardless of what is going on.
> 
> ...


There is help for women. I read a book recently "how can I get through to you" by Terrence Real. The author is an relationship therapist and reasearcher. He has an interesting take on male- female relationships that is backed up by reasesch. Not what you would expect. Much of the therapeutic approaches used by MC are not backed by research. In addition, few studies have been done exploring the effectiveness of the various approaches of MC. 

You sound so dispirited. Read the book and PM me tell me what you think. It takes only one person to change an unhappy dynamic. It happened in my marriage and I was days away from leaving my husband. I never stopped loving him but I was finished trying to communicate my unhappiness. 

It was not him though, it was his reaction to my misunderstanding. If your husband is abusive and purposely hurting you , that's one thing. If he is a good man, not perfect, then he is not purposely hurting you. You are both hurting. If you love him, start from there - take a chance - read the book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Thanks, Catherine. I will read the book. Although I myself do not "feel" this way, all of my friends do. I do not, ever, withhold sex or use it as a grudge. My husband, however, has denied me sex for a long time.


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## JRG (Feb 26, 2011)

deejov said:


> Yes, it is viewed as abuse by men. And it is.
> 
> It is also viewed as "abuse" by a lot of women to expect that she will give it up regardless of what is going on.
> 
> ...



But it's not always that, deejov. Every day, I've complimented my wife, been attentive, did the things I would in the beginning, compromised...my wife would actually acknowledge that I've been an incredibly loving husband. But she feels her "energy" is "off" with me. She doesn't want to do things to bring herself back in...just wants her internal energies to flow where they will, even if it means the marriage ends. She doesn't want to work toward unity...just toward what her Solo Self truly wants. It's the antithesis of a married spirit. And if I try to push for our marriage, it's viewed as "controlling/manipulating her" and moves her further away. 

Sometimes people just have this intense selfish side to them that sabotages what would otherwise be so wonderful. It's really rampant in our society now, actually. It's about "me me me", what makes ME happy. Our word, our bond, loyalty, the "we"...these are just viewed as antiquated concepts that create "slavery". And this is contributing to the disintegration of marriages everywhere.


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## JRG (Feb 26, 2011)

Scannerguard said:


> If consummation can't be acheived due to a physical reason, is the marriage still valid (and therefore vows appropriate)? Honestly, I don't know.


If my wife was simply incapable of sexuality because of a physical infirmity, I would probably stay forever anyway. Part of that whole "for better or for worse" thing. But to know she could be sexual, that she DOES have it in her, but then to decide not to pursue it because she doesn't want to lead herself into her marriage or into such intimacy with ME? To choose torture, or divorce, rather than grow back into the union? How can I possibly NOT take that as a personal offense? It's a choice there, and she's chosen to communicate, very clearly, that my needs, my wants...that I as her partner...that these things just aren't all that important to her when held up against her feelings in the here-and-now. Never mind the wonderful times we've had in the not THAT long ago past. "That was then, this is now." This is most certainly personal.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Dee You are welcome - still the same he is hurt. Men or women withhold sex, although it is more common for women to do so. Gender makes no difference it is not about sex. He cannot make himself vulnerable with you, he does not want to give you pleasure of to accept pleasure from you. 

The why of it is for you to say. Be honest, there is s reason he is hurting along with you. What happened or is happening. Could have been long ago, or seemed no big deal to you. 

What ever it was, it was and is a big deal to him. We can't see the world exavlctly like out partner so we have to find out what is important to them and make it important to us. Find out what makes him tick or not tick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Scanner,

I've never suggested that anyone force themselves on their spouse. In my mind, what you suggest amounts to rape. In my view a spouse should willfully submit to their mate, placing the needs of their spouse before their own. Similarly, if it's cold, I'll surrender my coat to my wife but it wouldn't be ok for her to rip it off my back. Marriage (and parenthood) is all about selfless service but it only works correctly if both partners adopt this attitude.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

It's.......who gives a crap.


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

deejov said:


> Yes, it is viewed as abuse by men. And it is.
> 
> It is also viewed as "abuse" by a lot of women to expect that she will give it up regardless of what is going on.
> 
> ...


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## ladybird (Jun 16, 2010)

coldshoulder said:


> I have to dissagree with you on this one...that is a terrible example for what we are discussing in here...sex isn't only intercourse, there are lots of other things that are considered SEX...they still have options if they were to still be thinking "family"...adoption or artificial insemination are two that come to mind as possible answers to the situation...
> 
> I mean would you really encourage someone to "kick him while he is down"? Yes, there is no way for him to pass on his genes, but that doesn't mean he can't be a father and pass on his beliefs and values...and it also doesn't mean that her feelings for the man are gone along with the possibility of carrying his child...
> 
> ...


Sometimes love just is not enough. Love does die. people grow apart instead of together. Needs aren't being met. What happens if you don't water a flower, it withers and eventually dies. Love is pretty much the same thing. You have to nurture it everyday in order for it to grow. When that doesn't happen well you get the point.

When i married my husband I was very much in love with him. I never in a million years expected him and I to be where we are now. Marriage takes work from both people. If there isn't an effort from both sides it will die. I cant say that i am still in love with him, i do however still love him.

People marry Young, I was 19. Things change/people change. I know I have changed over the last 15 years. We have not grown together. I am still trying tho, that is all i can do before i throw in the towel.


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## NALLA80 (Oct 9, 2011)

one of my old roommates is getting divorced after 6 months of marriage, I initially thought that she was rushing her decision because she did not even want to go to the couple's counseling however, I had the same issue for a long time now, and I always tried to work it out up until couple days ago when my husband told me he is Bi-curious so now I know that we will be getting separated, so I guess at the end you need to choose your own battles, do you think you will win if you become more patient or just loose more time out of your life ? personally, I would want out, life goes by too fast, why waste with someone if there is quality in the relationship. maybe it also depends on what kind of future you are expecting with that person?


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

I dont think the moral ramifications of divorcing over my sexless marriage were ever a factor. My reasons for staying was to be able to sort out if it's just his problem, if it's my problem, or if it's a combination of the two of us. Obviously if it's my problem leaving wont do any good so I have to eliminate that possibility first, which takes some time. However long it takes to eliminate yourself from the equation is as long as you should stay in a sexless marriage.


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