# Is it in our nature to be more tolerant towards cheating?



## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

While the majority of people leave someone that cheats, among the individuals that decided to stay with the cheater, were able to identify the symptoms of the cheating and work it out without that overwhelming drive to avenge the hurt are mainly women than men.

Off course there are exceptions to the rules. Some women may indeed turn super vengeful as well as some men might have a more forgiving nature. But generally speaking, I've seen that happen too often. When a woman decides to get past infidelity, she will only get upset in that moment and vent out on you but then will relax as time goes by and will eventually forgive you. Whereas if a man decides to work it out, it's like we are going to own him forever and he might go on extreme guardian mode (more than a woman).


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

I've also notice the replies from the women and men differed. While some women tend to answer ''If you have it in your heart to forgive and work it out, sure why not'' or ''Have you guys sought counseling'' while the men on the other hand replied with an ''Dump him/her, once a cheater always a cheater''.

Or is it the fact the male ego is not as strong as we like to believe it is and he doesn't know how to handle that type of pain??


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

In order to stay together, the WS has to stop lying, and cheating.

She also needs to show some kind of remorse. It would help if she told the truth ever.

She is supposed to be very intelligent in her employment. Patients lives depend on her work. She does not remember anything. 

So in order to rationalize the difference between betrayed males and betrayed females, you also have to look at the lack of any conscience in at least one wayward female. 

Nurses are supposed to be nurses to help people and also to get a paycheck. However, some do it to claim that this money is for this expense or that expense. But she spends her money over and over and over. 

But I would not use the sample of one lying cheating female for all females.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

OnlyQueen said:


> I've also notice the replies from the women and men differed. While some women tend to answer ''If you have it in your heart to forgive and work it out, sure why not'' or ''Have you guys sought counseling'' while the men on the other hand replied with an ''Dump him/her, once a cheater always a cheater''.


Men probably suffer more dealing with a PA by their WW.

Women probably suffer more dealing with an EA by their WH.

Generalizations for sure. Men are often more likely to be the breadwinner, and have better financial resources to work through a D.



OnlyQueen said:


> Or is it the fact the male ego is not as strong as we like to believe it is and he doesn't know how to handle that type of pain??


Why the bash on the male ego? Are you a WW?

I think an ego is shattered when a wife betrays. I would also think it would shatter a woman''s ego as well.

Being betrayed regarless of gender is one of the worst emotional experiences one can endure. 

My heart bleeds for women that are "stuck" in a situation where they are not able to walk away.

Not sure what your point is for this thread.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> Why the bash on the male ego? Are you a WW?
> 
> I think an ego is shattered when a wife betrays. I would also think it would shatter a woman''s ego as well.
> 
> ...


No I'm not a WW but just making an observation. I'm not even married but a female friend of mine got cheated on and she took him back. They've been married for about 6 years and she seems to be doing fine by now. 
My sister on the other hand cheated on her husband a couple years ago and he has been terribly affected since. Though he only found out through phone bills, she told me that he sometimes still thinks about what else may had happened when she was with the OM.

I know that cheating definitely hurts either gender but it feels as if a betrayed woman is able to work it out slightly better than a betrayed man. Yes, we have egos too but again it seems like when a male ego gets hurt so badly, he feels destroyed completely as a person while we may feel humiliated but can recover eventually.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

It is possible, but I don't think inferring from a couple of cases would be statistically significant.

I do agree men seem to be hurt more when trying to work through a R. Maybe it is due to the nature of our culture.

I often hear women say things along the lines, "she is prettier than me." Maybe they accept defeat more readily.

Maybe men are not as afraid to D and move on.

It really is difficult knowing what makes individuals they way they are. It would be interesting to find some actual stats from a reliable study or source.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Bottom line is that we try to learn and help each other through the pain it causes. 

I see you are a newbie. It is always good to see people join and contribute. Looking forward to reading more of your posts.


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## someone90 (May 31, 2013)

OnlyQueen said:


> I've also notice the replies from the women and men differed. While some women tend to answer ''If you have it in your heart to forgive and work it out, sure why not'' or ''Have you guys sought counseling'' while the men on the other hand replied with an ''Dump him/her, once a cheater always a cheater''.
> 
> Or is it the fact the male ego is not as strong as we like to believe it is and he doesn't know how to handle that type of pain??


Ego, or tolerance level? Although it's very difficult to get beyond cheating and forgive, some spouses will do it because they are afraid of starting their lives over (in a way). It may seem easy to pick up and leave but giving up everything you had and cherished and moving on takes a lot of strength.


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## ironman (Feb 6, 2013)

I think that men have bigger egos, thus they are hit harder by the pain of infidelity. But don't get me wrong ... I"m not dismissing how terribly women feel when betrayed at all.

It goes back to the old saying that women use sex to get love and men use love to get sex. I think that's why a lot of times a betrayed woman will ask the WH "if he loved her?" and a betrayed man will many times want all the details of what they did in bed.

If it "appears" women are more tolerant I think it's only because many times when a man has an affair it was only about sex (in other words he never loved the AP), therefore the emotional bond still belonged to the wife. On the other hand, when a women cheats the sex now belongs to the AP. Additionally, when a woman cheats typically her emotional bond to the husband is also gone. Sort of a lose, lose for a betrayed guy.

*** These are generalizations only ... I fully realize there are exceptions everywhere ***


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

I could handle reconcilation i just chose not to. It was not because my ego is weak, its because my self respect and intolerance of disrespect is too high.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

someone90 said:


> Ego, or tolerance level? Although it's very difficult to get beyond cheating and forgive, some spouses will do it because they are afraid of starting their lives over (in a way). It may seem easy to pick up and leave but giving up everything you had and cherished and moving on takes a lot of strength.


I could not agree more.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

In my case I am forced to be tolerant. There is a hell of a lot at stake - children, financial stress; security.

Some males here have told me to ditch the b**ch. If only it were that simple. However, it comes down to who you are and what you are made of. An affair raises many questions; none the least the introspection the BS has to go through.

In six months since DDay I have had to accept that I was weak, that I am still quite weak. That I was doing my designated role of SAHD above and beyond but it amounted to a hill of beans as far as my WS was concerned. She had lost all respect for me for a variety of reasons. I had no cache and the world loves cache.

I was not her KISA and she went and found one.

But now that it is all over and out there I am left with the dregs. She is not suffering - new car, new job, heaps of cache while I'm in the same boat. Sure, I'm at the gym I'm getting closer to pulling a full time job and I have more confidence but nothing has changed. She has not changed one iota - and I expected her to change. Wrong (it was yet more neediness on my part to expect that)

The affair helped me to see me. Not pretty and not the way you want "enlightenment" but so it was. And boy, I wasn't even on the totem pole.

Tolerance? It's not that at all. I have deep brooding resentment which ebbs and flows. There are moments when I want to unleash on her for putting me through this and yet I feel as though I have mastered the pain. It's just that it comes back.

I still cannot see the day I will forgive her for what she has done and the way she carries on without any adjustment on any level - drinking, spending etc. (which affects our family)

As I have said before, if I had a enough dough I'd split.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

I think cultural background and generation have more to do with it than gender. How a 20 year old growing up in a FWB type atmosphere is going to look at infidelity will be entirely different than someone from the mid-west in their 50's. Also playing into is the local culture; Like a small town where you don’t want it to get out versus ‘the city’ where it won’t spread like gossip as fast. Or maybe a culture where the men had mistress’s like the gangster movies have you believing. 

It’s not as easy as you’d make it out to be... People make decisions based on their own experiences and life lessons they’ve picked up over the years. What and where they picked up those things isn’t a standard script.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Horizon,

That was a painfully honest post. Your story goes back to the OP.

Maybe circumstance has more to do with it than gender.

I also agree that either R or D is tough. It seems women (in general) are more fearful of D than men.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

But, I would add more women file for D.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

Lovemytruck said:


> But, I would add more women file for D.


Yes I've noticed that too and that seems to contradict their fear of divorce. It's so ironic, they fear D more than men but yet seem to file for it more than men.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

All I know is that my WS used her feelings of worthlessness when she was unemployed and the fact that we were in a long rut to allow herself to be swept up in an affair.

Since DDay she has stuck to the line that it was just as much my fault and that the whole deal was fantasy - despite the graphic nature of the texts and e-mails which I read (and have some copies of). 

She effectively refuses to talk about it and has told me more than once to get over it because she has. She doesn't have a clue. 

Tolerance makes me sick, makes me feel weak just reading the word.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Horizon said:


> In my case I am forced to be tolerant. There is a hell of a lot at stake - children, financial stress; security.
> 
> Some males here have told me to ditch the b**ch. If only it were that simple. However, it comes down to who you are and what you are made of. An affair raises many questions; none the least the introspection the BS has to go through.
> 
> ...


When you can no longer tolerate it, then you will be forced to do something about it. It kind of is that simple. Tons of guys i know are in the same boat as you, and they have tolerated less than you have. Thats not a dig at you. It takes time to get to that place. It is not easy. But dont pretend that you dont have a choice because you do. It may not be ideal, but other options exist. Admitting that is the first step.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

OnlyQueen said:


> Yes I've noticed that too and that seems to contradict their fear of divorce. It's so ironic, they fear D more than men but yet seem to file for it more than men.


Maybe it also goes against your idea that women R more than men.

We are really floating on our ideas because we have nothing concrete to base it on.

Good discussion because it makes us think. Not sure where it will end.

I say it sucks. Betrayal sucks. We all should try to chose what path will give us the best long-term results.


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## OnlyQueen (Oct 19, 2013)

Horizon said:


> All I know is that my WS used her feelings of worthlessness when she was unemployed and the fact that we were in a long rut to allow herself to be swept up in an affair.
> 
> Since DDay she has stuck to the line that it was just as much my fault and that the whole deal was fantasy - despite the graphic nature of the texts and e-mails which I read (and have some copies of).
> 
> ...


Wow sorry to hear you're going through that Horizon. It's one thing if the cheater is remorseful during the whole R period but your WW apparently doesn't care. What helped out my female friend the most was her husband's remorse and blaming it all on himself but if he had been acting just like your wife, I think she would have lost her patience quickly.

I think you should tell her how you're feeling about her lack of remorse and blame-shifting. No wonder you don't feel like forgiving her; she hasn't done anything to reassure you. Sorry for your pain. Hopefully she gets that ''Get over it already'' prideful mentality out of her mind and actually helps you through it.


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## ASummersDay (Mar 4, 2013)

I think this has more to do with cultural norms and expectations than gender.


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## Coach8 (Jun 17, 2013)

For me, EA would be more hurtful than a strictly PA or ONS. I can understand wanting NSA sex, but loving someone else would be harder to take.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

OnlyQueen said:


> While the majority of people leave someone that cheats, among the individuals that decided to stay with the cheater, were able to identify the symptoms of the cheating and work it out without that overwhelming drive to avenge the hurt are mainly women than men.
> 
> Off course there are exceptions to the rules. Some women may indeed turn super vengeful as well as some men might have a more forgiving nature. But generally speaking, I've seen that happen too often. When a woman decides to get past infidelity, she will only get upset in that moment and vent out on you but then will relax as time goes by and will eventually forgive you. Whereas if a man decides to work it out, it's like we are going to own him forever and he might go on extreme guardian mode (more than a woman).


I believe there is a large difference in men and women when it comes to cheating. I have been cheated on in a past relationship and now I'm a WS after being married for 23 years and Im 2 years past D-day. 

Our first year of R was the hardest thing I have ever been through. ( Im a child of being molested by a family member). I did TT the first week, more because I was afraid of him and that he would hurt me if I told him everything at once. The one thing he couldn't do was wrap his head around the fact that I didn't have a hard time stopping contact, my affaire was never about love it was a desire to be wanted, to be told I was beautiful and sexy and it became something for me to look forward to as We were living in a sexless marriage. (no excuse here, I was as selfish as they come just telling a story)

The reason Im telling you this is, my husband had done things prior to me having an affair that had damaged our marriage, he didn’t cheat but was pretty bad and hurt me deeply a few times, he told me a few years back in a conversation around the same time, “ that men can sleep with a woman and we woman should realize it means nothing as men don’t put emotion into getting laid, It’s just sex”. However woman are the ones that should be watched after as we attach emotion to sex….I wasn’t happy with his statement as he was telling me it was ok for a man to cheat and he said as much when I phrased it that way and didn’t disagree.

Going along with his analogy now when I look back, I never had any loving feelings for the online guy I was chatting with and when I did go to PA it was a ONS with an online man I places an ad for (no love just sex). I had always questioned why he did so many things to hurt me. It was like he was testing me to see how much I would take to leave the marriage, when D-Day happened I realized that he actually did love me and wasn’t doing things in the marriage to get me to leave.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cheating is "normal." The latest estimates I've seen are that a little over 50% of both men and women will cheat in a relationship sometime in their lives. Fidelity is abnormal. And that's not surprising, as humans are not naturally monogamous (they range across a spectrum from a few who are totally and easily monogamous to those who are highly promiscuous). Our culture pedestalizes monogamy, so most people have no good way to deal with the issues when their nature drives them to seek sexual or emotional gratification elsewhere. So, cheating is the result. If the norm was the more natural human promiscuous mating model and consensual non-monogamy, cheating would be less common - it would still happen as there will still be many who subscribe to a monogamous model of relationships. Their partners may discover that it doesn't suit them at some point, yet have no good alternative (there are generally acceptable alternatives, but that does not make them "good" alternatives) knowing their partner's views.

We practice responsible non-monogamy, yet are completely intolerant of cheating. We have the option to do what we want without cheating, so cheating would be an even greater violation of trust than in conventional monogamy where cheating is almost the default.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

OnlyQueen said:


> Or is it the fact the male ego is not as strong as we like to believe it is and he doesn't know how to handle that type of pain??


It's not so much that I don't know how to handle that kind of pain ... It's more an issue of "I don't want to". There is no reason to. You get a cancer, you cut it out, you don't live with it. I can't speak for the other guys here but *my male ego* won't let me live with a woman who allowed another man *to physically use her*. And I imagine that if I were a woman, I'd feel the same way. I have a strong sense of self respect.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

someone90 said:


> Ego, or tolerance level?


This. Yes, my ego was hurt, but that isn't why I am divorcing my cheating wife. That's only one component.

*Trust* is gone - that's huge. I can't be married to someone I don't trust.

Cheating proves ones true character - and that is *low character*. I don't want to be married to someone of such low character. 

Utter *disrespect* - a cheater shows a complete and utter lack of respect for their BS. I don't want to be married to someone who has no respect for me and our family unit. 

*Morality* - cheating shows a complete lack of morality. I don't want someone amoral as a wife.

*Cruelty* - cheating is cruel. Very, very cruel. I don't want to be married to someone who is cruel.

*Filthy* - cheating is dirty and filthy. I want a clean spouse.

*Humility* - cheaters don't have it. I require that in a spouse.

*Stupidity* - cheating is dumbass behavior. I want intelligence in my partner.

*Selfishness* - everyone is selfish to some degree - but cheaters are selfish to the core. I need a spouse who is at least _somewhat_ selfless.

So, as you can see, the bruised or even shattered ego is only the tip of a very, very deep plunging iceberg.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

OnlyQueen said:


> I've also notice the replies from the women and men differed. While some women tend to answer ''If you have it in your heart to forgive and work it out, sure why not'' or ''Have you guys sought counseling'' while the men on the other hand replied with an ''Dump him/her, once a cheater always a cheater''.
> 
> Or is it the fact the male ego is not as strong as we like to believe it is and he doesn't know how to handle that type of pain??


You may be onto something vis-a-vis men's vs women's reactions to their after cheating. But in terms of strength of ego......to be cheats on is to be humiliated. I think it is the weaker ego that tolerates humiliation; the stronger that does not.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

Healer said:


> This. Yes, my ego was hurt, but that isn't why I am divorcing my cheating wife. That's only one component.
> 
> *Trust* is gone - that's huge. I can't be married to someone I don't trust.
> 
> ...


You and i are in total agreement. They are too many good women who do not cheat, to stay witth one who does.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Interesting thread and this post:


nuclearnightmare said:


> You may be onto something vis-a-vis men's vs women's reactions to their after cheating. But in terms of strength of ego......to be cheats on is to be humiliated. I think it is the weaker ego that tolerates humiliation; the stronger that does not.


That was me, in a nutshell.
My wife and I separated and within _days _she was seeing OM as in 'a new relationship'.
Humiliation, dejection, despair...whatever else you want to use...I was feeling it for months.
The OM had effectively 'taken my place' physically and emotionally and that made me unable or unilling to 'fight' to get her back even though, now we talk about it she was upset that I didn't do anything...even to the point when she was willing me to _"man-up and grow a pair_".

I thought by tolerating it, sucking it up, bottling it inside that their situation would blow itself out... :banghead:


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

illwill said:


> You and i are in total agreement. They are too many good women who do not cheat, to stay witth one who does.


Totally! Now, where are they?


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Interesting thread and this post:
> 
> That was me, in a nutshell.
> My wife and I separated and within _days _she was seeing OM as in 'a new relationship'.
> ...


Upset you didn't do anything - WOW.


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## Dad&Hubby (Aug 14, 2012)

davecarter said:


> Interesting thread and this post:
> 
> That was me, in a nutshell.
> My wife and I separated and within _days _she was seeing OM as in 'a new relationship'.
> ...


Wait, so she shacks up with another guy immediately after separation (that I'm assuming she was seeing BEFORE the separation, please correct me if I'm wrong). You leave, see this activity, don't want her and she gets mad because you didn't fight for her?

She wanted you to "man up and grow a pair"? You did man up by not fighting for her. She should've been fighting for you!! My gosh if my exW said that to me...

During my divorce, my exW actually brought up reconciliation, right near the end. She tried to use the kids and the mistakes we both made..yada yada yada. Well I looked at her and said.."Seriously, NOW you want to reconcile. After everything you've put me through with the kids, the divorce, cheating on me etc. Do you really think I'd EVER in a million years want you back? Why so I could suffer all over again? You don't want me...you want your lifestyle that I provide. Here, if you can HONESTLY look me in the eye and tell me you'd miss me, my company, our sex life (that took effort to get out without chuckling) then I might consider it." She knew how crazy that was and couldn't, even though she has always been a master liar and manipulator.

In regards to the "male ego". My ego was at it's LOWEST during my marriage. My wife had systematically stripped away everything from me (I allowed her to from a twisted, over-riding need to "make the marriage work"). My ego took it's biggest boost when I was walking down the steps from the court house the day our divorce was finalized.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

davecarter said:


> Interesting thread and this post:
> 
> That was me, in a nutshell.
> My wife and I separated and within _days _she was seeing OM as in 'a new relationship'.
> ...


What's there to fight for if she jumps ship so quick Dave? Why didn't she think about winning you back before replacing you??

There is another story here right? ( I haven't read your thread Dave but the speed you were replaced at suggests something was cooking )


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Let's cut to the chase here. The one person you trust more than anyone else on the planet (besides Mum) has an affair and keeps it hidden, sometimes for years, gets busted, continues lying to your face and we consider tolerating it???? Tolerance, if at all possible, can only come with genuine remorse. Anyone seen genuine remorse lately? Not I. Phuck all cheaters!!!!


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Horizon said:


> Phuck all cheaters!!!!


No - let the posom phuck the cheaters. That's all they're worth.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Horizon said:


> Let's cut to the chase here. The one person you trust more than anyone else on the planet (besides Mum) has an affair and keeps it hidden, sometimes for years, gets busted, continues lying to your face and we consider tolerating it???? Tolerance, if at all possible, can only come with genuine remorse. Anyone seen genuine remorse lately? Not I. Phuck all cheaters!!!!


I'm sorry but if it were my wife (who is the love of my life) had "an affair and keeps it hidden for years" there would be no recovering from it, as much as I lover her. She can have all the remorse in the world and do everything right, I couldn't live with her and still respect myself. She would have to go.


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## remorseful strayer (Nov 13, 2012)

someone90 said:


> It may seem easy to pick up and leave but giving up everything you had and cherished and moving on takes a lot of strength.


Actually it is easier to just pick up and leave. It takes far less strength to divide assets and/or pay some alimony and move on then it does to stick around and try to iron out difficulties. 

The marriage vows said for better or for WORSE, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health. 

Many times a spouse that is in emotional upheaval or turmoil through stress or a mid life crisis or other emotional issue, will cheat. 

In those cases it's like a mental breakdown. 

Other times, the loyal spouse has been neglecting the marriage in many ways.

There are lots of ways to break marriage vows. 

Cheating is but one of them.


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## missthelove2013 (Sep 23, 2013)

If my wife had a one nighter, or a brief sexual fling...Id be more likely to forgive than if it were emotional...

if there were any "I love yous" exchanged, there is no chance in hell Id reconcile

For me, its not the sex...its the deception, lies, locked passwords...the brazoness of getting texts or phone calls on a cell phone...THAT is what would kill it for me...

If my wife went out of town for work, and got drunk and banged some dude, and that was it...id be open minded

If the above scenario happened, but they exchanged cell #'s and facebooke freinds...sending texts and sexting...there would be NO chance for R...she wouldnt even know I knew until she got served...the latter example show TOTAL and COMPLETE disregard for her family...the above is just disregard for me...I cant except disregard for the entire family


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Horizon said:


> Anyone seen genuine remorse lately?


There's a few genuinely remorseful cheaters on here. My husband is genuinely remorseful. But it is very very rare. There are a LOT more BS's staying because they feel trapped.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Actually it is easier to just pick up and leave. It takes far less strength to divide assets and/or pay some alimony and move on then it does to stick around and try to iron out difficulties.
> 
> The marriage vows said for better or for WORSE, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.
> 
> ...


 I agree (see bolded) - "forsake all others" is one marriage vow among several. BUT, I believe it is understood by people getting married that breaking that particular vow is a "dealbreaker" - or a potential dealbreaker - in and of itself. Marriage a type of contract. Both spouses know going in that violating that single clause could void the entire contract. So when they cheat anyway I really don't think the WS has much of a leg to stand on if they object to the BS heading immediately to divorce.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Actually it is easier to just pick up and leave. It takes far less strength to divide assets and/or pay some alimony and move on then it does to stick around and try to iron out difficulties.
> 
> The marriage vows said for better or for WORSE, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.
> 
> ...


Yet another extremely insightful, dead on post. So glad you're back.


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## jmiller2020 (Sep 3, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Actually it is easier to just pick up and leave. It takes far less strength to divide assets and/or pay some alimony and move on then it does to stick around and try to iron out difficulties.
> 
> The marriage vows said for better or for WORSE, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. In a previous post Married and Happy wrote about the insane stat (I think it was M&H). I actually think it is higher than 50% based on current research. There are several reasons why an affair happens and it is rarely just because the WS is a complete mess up and they don't care about anyone but themselves. Infidelity can truly happen to anyone when a marriage is vulnerable. The marriage becomes vulnerable when we stop paying attention to it. Affairs are the symptom not the illness. 

As far as gender, culture or ego... I think Ester Perel explained it perfectly in her article After the Storm: Affair in Retrospect. She stated that there are three types of couples and they all handle an affair differently. The first group get stuck. The BS cant move on and the entire marriage becomes one drawnout bicker fest. The pain is too great and the resentment bubbles and festers endlessly. Second are labled survivors. These couples stay together based on morals, beliefs, and they work through the pain together and basically end back where they were pre affair. Lastly, these couples are described as explorers. They take the affair and use it to reexamine their relationship, learn from it, and create a better stronger marriage than before the affair.

I believe all three play a role but I also feel that resiliency has to have some part in it as well.


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## illwill (Feb 21, 2013)

remorseful strayer said:


> Actually it is easier to just pick up and leave. It takes far less strength to divide assets and/or pay some alimony and move on then it does to stick around and try to iron out difficulties.
> 
> The marriage vows said for better or for WORSE, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.
> 
> ...


I assume you did divorce and you know what you are actually talking about. Surely you are not arrogant enough to just assume its easier to leave. I would never assume its easier to stay because i did not.


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

jmiller2020 said:


> I totally agree. In a previous post Married and Happy wrote about the insane stat (I think it was M&H). I actually think it is higher than 50% based on current research. There are several reasons why an affair happens and it is rarely just because the WS is a complete mess up and they don't care about anyone but themselves. Infidelity can truly happen to anyone when a marriage is vulnerable. The marriage becomes vulnerable when we stop paying attention to it. Affairs are the symptom not the illness.
> 
> As far as gender, culture or ego... I think Ester Perel explained it perfectly in her article After the Storm: Affair in Retrospect. She stated that there are three types of couples and they all handle an affair differently. The first group get stuck. The BS cant move on and the entire marriage becomes one drawnout bicker fest. The pain is too great and the resentment bubbles and festers endlessly. Second are labled survivors. These couples stay together based on morals, beliefs, and they work through the pain together and basically end back where they were pre affair. Lastly, these couples are described as explorers. They take the affair and use it to reexamine their relationship, learn from it, and create a better stronger marriage than before the affair.
> 
> I believe all three play a role but I also feel that resiliency has to have some part in it as well.


Another one. Awesome!!!


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*To answer the question as forthrightly and bluntly as I possibly can, I would absolutely think that a large proportion of WS's would greatly want it to be that way!

But I really feel that the vast majority of the BS's won't let them!*


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *To answer the question as forthrightly and bluntly as I possibly can, I would absolutely think that a large proportion of WS's would greatly want it to be that way!
> 
> But I really feel that the vast majority of the BS's won't let them!*


On this forum, it seems to me there are more people in R than D after an affair. For myself, Lovemytruck and a few others infidelity is a deal breaker, but mostly I see people in R. Maybe I'm wrong...just seems to be the case.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *To answer the question as forthrightly and bluntly as I possibly can, I would absolutely think that a large proportion of WS's would greatly want it to be that way!
> 
> But I really feel that the vast majority of the BS's won't let them!*


The WS often expects the BS to remain faithful while the WS gets to 'play'. If the BS 'let' the WS 'play' (without any consequences) then the WS would have to 'let' the BS 'play' as well.

Most WSs aren't willing to do that. Part of the psychology behind cheating is being able to get 'one up' on the BS. Once the playing field is leveled, the WS doesn't like it.

Vega


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## Headspin (May 13, 2012)

FWIW I think times are a changed - hugely

I'm in my 50's and suffered at the hands of cheats for over 20 years 

In my time cheating has moved from being a dark undercover 'art' to "why not, we only live once and I deserve to be 'happy' "!!

It shows itself in every form of expression particularly in the media film music novels etc etc 

There is a selfish point almost running through everything atm that I do find very disappointing and again it stems from the little regard to the basis of what married has always meant 

I almost feel the vows now should say I will not forsake you etc etc 'unless I find something a bit hornier at any given point after the first two years'

Because of this perception everything in the balance of a relationship has moved I often hear of the threat 'well I can always get someone else if I want'. !

Because of this 'shift' the ability to actually work on a marriage and actually TALK when it's not great has almost disappeared imo. It seems the first sign of any trouble and one of you is suddenly looking for 'sympathy' 'emotional support' from a third party, within weeks it's firmly established that this third party 'cares' more and the downward spiral of selfish entitled cheating and adultery has begun.

It seems almost a 'given' now that when faced with open honest remorseful communication about what's wrong in a marriage the best option is to look elsewhere 

This is an area where imo human 'development' seems retrograde.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Cheating is "normal." The latest estimates I've seen are that a little over 50% of both men and women will cheat in a relationship sometime in their lives.


I have seen stats that have shown cheating to be as low as 25% for men and 15% for women. It's nearly impossible to determine what the truth is because cheaters are _dishonest_ 



> Fidelity is abnormal. And that's not surprising, as humans are not naturally monogamous (they range across a spectrum from a few who are totally and easily monogamous to those who are highly promiscuous).


Are we going to go through this tired "monogamy-isn't-natural-so-no-one-should-even-attempt-to-be-monogamous" debate _again_? Humans do many things that aren't "natural" such as p*ssing _into a toilet _instead of on a fire hydrant. 



> Our culture pedestalizes monogamy, so most people have no good way to deal with the issues when their nature drives them to seek sexual or emotional gratification elsewhere. So, cheating is the result


Of course they have a 'good way' to deal with these issues. They can STAY SINGLE, not get married and not get into relationships. They can be UP FRONT and HONEST about their intentions to remain non-monogamous with anyone they would want to have sex with. 



> If the norm was the more natural human promiscuous mating model and consensual non-monogamy, cheating would be less common


...and the spread of incurable diseases would be MORE 'common'. Can you just imagine someone walking up to you and saying, "Hi! I'd love to have sex with you, and by the way...I have AIDS!" Or worse, how about if they tell you they want to have sex with you but they DON'T tell you that they have some incurable disease, like Herpes? 



> Their partners may discover that it doesn't suit them at some point, yet have no good alternative (there are generally acceptable alternatives, but that does not make them "good" alternatives) knowing their partner's views


If someone knows UP FRONT that they don't wish to be monogamous, then _they_ have the responsibility to communicate this to anyone they would like to have sex with BEFORE they have sex with them. If they have been in a monogamous relationship/marriage and decide that they no longer wish to be monogamous, it's up to them to communicate this to their partner BEFORE they cheat. If people don't know themselves well enough to figure out if they may want to become non-monogamous in the future, then perhaps they should STAY SINGLE until they are mature enough to handle monogamy.



> We practice responsible non-monogamy yet are completely intolerant of cheating


If we practiced "responsible" non-monogamy, the spread of deadly diseases and STDs wouldn't be at epidemic levels and abortions would be greatly reduced. Besides, being non-monogamous doesn't mean that we won't eventually fall in love and want to begin to practice monogamy.

Monogamy doesn't _cause_ a spouse to cheat any more than taking a test causes a _student_ to cheat. 

All in all, I don't see that our "nature" is to be "tolerant" of it. Some of us may 'tolerate' it for the duration of a marriage/relationship. Others will tolerate it in a limited manner. Still others will dump the cheater in a heartbeat upon discovery. It's difficult to determine which is which. A lot of divorce stats are obtained from court records, and the record doesn't always reflect cheating or adultery as the reason for the divorce. 

Vega


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## Healer (Jun 5, 2013)

Vega said:


> I have seen stats that have shown cheating to be as low as 25% for men and 15% for women. It's nearly impossible to determine what the truth is because cheaters are _dishonest_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find the whole "monogamy isn't natural" argument to be bunk as well. I was able to stay faithful, and it's not like it was wholly unnatural or a brutal struggle - I made a promise - I kept it. Simple as that. Trying to blame "nature" for low character is a cop out and total bull****.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Healer said:


> I find the whole "monogamy isn't natural" argument to be bunk as well. I was able to stay faithful, and it's not like it was wholly unnatural or a brutal struggle - I made a promise - I kept it. Simple as that. Trying to blame "nature" for low character is a cop out and total bull****.


I agree.. if you're not into the whole monogamy thing, then don't get married. Some people enjoy the comfort level of one partner, the safety of it and the security of it... 

My wife talked me into getting married.. after years together, I did.. and we had children... I was comfortable, I was happy.. I was content. I had no desire to find another, to replace my wife or to sneak around behind her back to find some strange. It felt very natural to me.. felt, past tense. Now I don't know what I feel anymore with regards to monogamy or marriage.. still too angry and bitter, I think I need more time.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Dad&Hubby said:


> Wait, so she shacks up with another guy immediately after separation (that I'm assuming she was seeing BEFORE the separation, please correct me if I'm wrong). You leave, see this activity, don't want her and she gets mad because you didn't fight for her?
> 
> She wanted you to "man up and grow a pair"? You did man up by not fighting for her. She should've been fighting for you!! My gosh if my exW said that to me...


Yeah, this was back pre-Spring, this year when I was a total 'doormat' - and I don't mind admitting that now.
I went to see a therapist and I've had issues from chldhood which permutated into my relationship anbd marriage with my wife....and also 'anger-management' which, even though she pushed my buttos about, I'm addressing.
I think....he was gutted at the depth of how low I'd got as a husband and a man.
Like guys on here will tell you...women DO graivitate toward 'Alpha' males (if you believe in all the sexual ranking / hier-archy stuff) and this is what happened with my wife.


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## davecarter (Aug 15, 2013)

Horizon said:


> What's there to fight for if she jumps ship so quick Dave? Why didn't she think about winning you back before replacing you??
> 
> There is another story here right? ( I haven't read your thread Dave but the speed you were replaced at suggests something was cooking )


Very true.
I thin that, coupled with my feeling of 'paralyzed' abou her being with OM, which Ive described before, put me on the back-foot. She'd been living as SAHM with me not helping and she read the '50 Shades' stuff and just wanted her 'Christian Grey'...

I think...that feeling of "Yes, I'm so in love with her" was replaced in turn, by my own "I-Love-You-But-Im-Not-In-Love-With-You' feeling....which we both now pinpoint.

Think, 'I-Dont-Want-You-But-I-Dont_Want-Anyone-Else-To-Have-You-Either'


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

OnlyQueen said:


> While the majority of people leave someone that cheats, among the individuals that decided to stay with the cheater, were able to identify the symptoms of the cheating and work it out without that overwhelming drive to avenge the hurt are mainly women than men.
> 
> Off course there are exceptions to the rules. Some women may indeed turn super vengeful as well as some men might have a more forgiving nature. But generally speaking, I've seen that happen too often. When a woman decides to get past infidelity, she will only get upset in that moment and vent out on you but then will relax as time goes by and will eventually forgive you. Whereas if a man decides to work it out, it's like we are going to own him forever and he might go on extreme guardian mode (more than a woman).





OnlyQueen said:


> I've also notice the replies from the women and men differed. While some women tend to answer ''If you have it in your heart to forgive and work it out, sure why not'' or ''Have you guys sought counseling'' while the men on the other hand replied with an ''Dump him/her, once a cheater always a cheater''.
> 
> Or is it the fact the male ego is not as strong as we like to believe it is and he doesn't know how to handle that type of pain??



I have a couple of THEORIES. Whether they are correct is another thing. I think the answer lies in biology and culture.

-First off, a woman has a lot MORE to lose and a lot LESS to lose if her husband cheats.

What do I mean? In days of yore, a woman with a squalling brat left without a man was leopard chow. IF she was lucky, she could get hooked up as a second wife to some guy who was very successful as a hunter/merchant/noble...IF she was attractive enough. Do I need to outline how the FIRST wife treated the second?

So an unforgiving woman had a LOT to lose.

How did she have less to lose? Well...a woman who gets pregnant by another man inflicts a bastard upon her husband...and his labor will be improperly spent raising someone else's brat. This is a huge 'waste' of his labor. It's good for the child, good for the woman, good for the philanderer...not so good for the husband.

If a HUSBAND gets some other woman pregnant, it isn't the wife' problem. She has her husband and his labor. IF he is wealthy enough, he might be able to pay off the other woman too...but mostly the only loss for wife is the slight chance his affections will be permanently diverted.

So infidelity is unequal between genders.

Culturally, women seem to like winners. They would all like the top dogs...but the top dogs are all married and might not want the woman. So they find their level of mate. While it is hurtful, having another woman 'pursue' (yeah right...we know who is pursuing who...all she does is say 'yes') to her husband verifies her choice. Her husband is desirable to other women. Validation which softens the blow.

A man who has a wife that everyone wants also feels validation. He has a good pick. A man who has a wife anyone can HAVE feels UNvalidated. He just happens to be the one she chose this second.

Try reading "The Red Queen" which discusses marriage and sex from a purely biological perspective.

I would argue this over a beer, but not with any heat.

There is one gender factor that you also seem to ignore. When MEN cheat and are caught, they dump the new woman faster than a hot horseshoe unless there are HUGE fundamental problems in the marriage. They tend to stay.

When a woman cheats, she is more likely halfway out the door and willing to leave.

Simplifying: men screw for fun. Women screw for love, which is much more dangerous for the man.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

JCD - Interesting post. Looks like some valid points about the gender thing. It does seem that women tend to use jealousy more to validate their choice. Men deal with jealousy by fight or flight. BHs often get angry, later they disdain the WW and distance themselves. I know I did.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Vega said:


> The WS often expects the BS to remain faithful while the WS gets to 'play'. If the BS 'let' the WS 'play' (without any consequences) then the WS would have to 'let' the BS 'play' as well.
> 
> Most WSs aren't willing to do that. Part of the psychology behind cheating is being able to get 'one up' on the BS. Once the playing field is leveled, the WS doesn't like it.
> 
> Vega


Very true in my case. We see it it most cases on TAM.

I wonder if in the mind of many of the WSs they are seeking external (outside of the marriage) validation. When the tables turn, the validation becomes meaningless.

If they value the BS more than the AP, the loss of the BS becomes more signigicant than anything they received from the AP.

Going back to the OP's question, not sure how gender matters in this case. 

I also wonder how much "hurt" a WW feels vs. a WH after they lose their BS from a D.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

I'm one of those kind that cheating is a deal breaker plain and simple. Don't ask for a second chance and if I'm the one cheating, I wouldn't expect another chance either. I know it sounds hard core but I had a terrible experience when I was 21. with my fiancé who I loved more than anything in this world. She cheated, got pregnant, said it was mine and two weeks after we married, I found out it was a lie and some other guy was the father. She played me like a Stradivarius violin and I fell for it. I was in the army, the father was a bum. She married me to become a dependent and therefor got all the benefits from the government. 

I was young, stupid and gullible and when all this played out the only thing I had to show for was tire tracks all over my body from where I was run over. From that day on, it was "one and out" when it came to cheating. 

I know that all women aren't like that but I refuse to have anything like that happen to me again without consequences. It hurts me to this day and this took place in 1968.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

jmiller2020 said:


> I totally agree. In a previous post Married and Happy wrote about the insane stat (I think it was M&H). I actually think it is higher than 50% based on current research. There are several reasons why an affair happens and it is rarely just because the WS is a complete mess up and they don't care about anyone but themselves. Infidelity can truly happen to anyone when a marriage is vulnerable. The marriage becomes vulnerable when we stop paying attention to it. Affairs are the symptom not the illness.
> 
> As far as gender, culture or ego... I think Ester Perel explained it perfectly in her article After the Storm: Affair in Retrospect. She stated that there are three types of couples and they all handle an affair differently. The first group get stuck. The BS cant move on and the entire marriage becomes one drawnout bicker fest. The pain is too great and the resentment bubbles and festers endlessly. Second are labled survivors. These couples stay together based on morals, beliefs, and they work through the pain together and basically end back where they were pre affair. Lastly, these couples are described as explorers. They take the affair and use it to reexamine their relationship, learn from it, and create a better stronger marriage than before the affair.
> 
> I believe all three play a role but I also feel that resiliency has to have some part in it as well.


We are actually in the first group but my WS would have her girlfriends believe, who she confessed to recently, that we are in the last group. More WS BS.


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