# Guys who are divorced. How bad did you get hit financially?



## BeachGuy

I'm scared to death to file for what I might get ordered to pay her. I'm fine with "fair", child support, alimony (for a time), etc. But I'm worried sick I'm going to end up paying her alimony for the rest of her life, her getting all of the house (which we have $50K equity in), etc. I just have this vision of me living in a cardboard box on the beach after it's all over.

I want so bad to get divorced but the financial fear is paralyzing me. She hasn't worked in 14 years but does have a college degree. I know it's considered a "long term" marriage and all that.

Did you guys go through this fear? Or you ladies if you were the sole breadwinner in your family when you filed?

What can I do to get past this and just file the damn papers? I'm sure I've built this up to be way worse in my mind than it probably will be.

Thanks.


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## Deejo

It's all about which level of pain is higher, the cost of divorcing or the cost of not divorcing.

Let me sum up ... Everybody loses financially. Nobody 'makes out' on the deal.

I pay nearly 30 grand in child support ... no alimony. My own, my ex's and my children's standard of living has all fallen.

That is the price of freedom from a failed marriage. You won't be living in a cardboard box, anymore than you will be living in a waterfront condo. 

You will get by, either comfortably or uncomfortably.


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## Mavash.

Everyone I know that got to this point chose freedom over money. Nobody wins in a divorce which is why if you don't have to don't. 

My best friend, a homemaker, is barely getting by but she says she wouldn't change a thing. He was abusive and he cheated on her. She tried for years to fix it to no avail. Eventually the pain of staying was worse than the pain of leaving.

I'm NOT an advocate for divorce but sometimes you gotta know when to fold em.


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## chillymorn

go to a lawyer and see what the worst case would be then make your decission.


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## Kathrynthegreat

Check the laws in your state. In Texas where I live, spousal support can't be ordered for more than 3 years. 

Also, and I realize this may not be possible in a lot of situations, we didn't use lawyers or courts. 

When we got married we had literally nothing. We were sleeping on a mattress on the floor and sitting on an inflatable couch. 10 years later when we decided to divorce, we made a list of all our assets and liabilities, split it down the middle and then took turns picking what we wanted that totaled up to half. Took us less than an hour. We downloaded the documents off the internet and filed them at the courthouse ourselves. 

Just something to consider.


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## Anubis

If he is in Florida, he's in a literal hellhole for divorce and lifetime alimony that persists even if he is retired or has Alzheimers. I would advice relocation to another state while staying the marriage, and then terminating it once residency has been established.


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## Juicer

I made my wife sound a prenup. All I have to do is give her the papers.

But if I hadn't made my wife sign my prenup:
I own a few businesses before the marriage, and I live in a state where assets are divided and given to the owner before the marriage, but assets aqcuired during the marriage are distrubted equally. 
So anyway, my wife can't take my businesses. But if she wanted to, and if there wasn't a prenup, she could og after the income for alimony. Sucks that she can't though!

Plus, she could get a fairly nice 401k folder, and if she wanted to take my savings, she could probably get at least 50%, if not more. Not that there is a lot in that savings account, but she could. 

Overall, my net worth was around, before I learned about the infidelity, was around 800K. Now, it is has gone down considerably, maybe 600k, but out of it, she will only get maybe 50k at most. 
And if that sounds bitter, I had a net worth of maybe 700k before the marriage, she had very little. I would say nothing

I would suggest going with Anbusis's advice. Going to Texas would be a great idea.


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## sisters359

Juicer said:


> I made my wife sound a prenup. All I have to do is give her the papers.
> 
> But if I hadn't made my wife sign my prenup:
> I own a few businesses before the marriage, and I live in a state where assets are divided and given to the owner before the marriage, but assets aqcuired during the marriage are distrubted equally.
> So anyway, my wife can't take my businesses. But if she wanted to, and if there wasn't a prenup, she could og after the income for alimony. Sucks that she can't though!
> 
> Plus, she could get a fairly nice 401k folder, and if she wanted to take my savings, she could probably get at least 50%, if not more. Not that there is a lot in that savings account, but she could.
> 
> Overall, my net worth was around, before I learned about the infidelity, was around 800K. Now, it is has gone down considerably, maybe 600k, but out of it, she will only get maybe 50k at most.
> And if that sounds bitter, I had a net worth of maybe 700k before the marriage, she had very little. I would say nothing
> 
> I would suggest going with Anbusis's advice. Going to Texas would be a great idea.


So basically she gets 1/2 of what was acquired during the marriage. That sounds right. Did she make career sacrifices for the sake of your children?


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## sisters359

I can answer for my ex b/c we also did our own paperwork--actually, I did it and he just signed. We had nothing at the outset, and not all that much to divide, but it was split 50/50.

Child support will be determined by the laws of your state. In WI, our two incomes were averaged, and then the difference was multiplied by some factor based on the number of kids (25%) or something, and then given to the person with the lower income (me, in this case).

I refused spousal support. Didn't want a dime of his future earnings. I did get 1/3 of his retirement--I had been a stay-at-home mom for several years with our kids, and this was a way to balance out the fact that I had sacrificed earning/retirement potential. We were married over 20 years.

It has been about 3 years now and both or us are living at about the same standard of living as before--which was always modest. I improved my employment options and earn 1/2 as much closer to what he does now, but he won't try to change the settlement because I did not touch his "extra" summer school earnings in writing up our settlement and I didn't take spousal support. He'd be nuts to reopen things now.


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## ScaredandUnsure

I opted not to get alimony, even though my lawyer advised me to get it. We both agreed to me being a stay at home mom and I didn't work or go back to school while married (he said he wouldn't watch the kids if I did).
I didn't go after his 401k or military benefits either, I left everything alone and all that is paid is child support. I learned recently he got a raise, and while I could take him back and demand more CS, I wouldn't do that.


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## Mavash.

Scared you are like my friend. All she wants is CS, a few household items and freedom. She opted out of alimony too even though she is entitled to it.

Although the verdict is still out because he's still fighting her on this even though she is being MORE than fair.


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## EleGirl

I understand the concept of spousal support and believe that there are cases where it is warranted. For example in the case of a women who stayed home for 25 years as an agreement of both spouses. She has no education beyond high school and no job experience. She’s 50 yrs old. It’s going to be hard for her to start a new career, not impossible but hard. Or for a spouse who is disabled. 

IMHO, it’s the responsibility of every person to be self-supporting. So in MOST CASES I believe that spousal support should be rehabilitative only.

Your best bet is to go see an attorney and discuss this. There are no set rules. From what I've read for FL at 12-14 years alimony is probable. At 15 years it's almost definite. But there are things you can do to mitigate this.

How old are your children? Are they in school? 

If you work paid overtime regularly cut back on your overtime. That way support will not be calculated on overtime. 

Tell your wife that she needs to start working because you guys cannot make it on your income alone (does not matter if this is true or not), get her out there working. If she cannot find a job then get her to go back to school for a Master’s in something that she can actually earn an income at. For example being a physician’s assistant.

When she’s back in school have her take out student loans to pay for the school. Student loans are not community debt. She will have to pay those off herself. From my experience never/ever pay out of your own pocket for your spouse’s education. They are most likely to divorce you once they achieve their new level of education… it goes to their head.

With the house, the equity will most likely be split 50/50.

You want to make sure that you start doing as much with your children as she does. This will help you win 50/50 custody and greatly reduce the amount of child support.

If you have a joint account with your wife, start now by reducing the amount of money you put in that account with each paycheck. Have some go to an account in your name only.

Who pays the bills in your home? You or her? If she pays them start getting very involved in your bill paying. Do you know how she is spending money right now?


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## EleGirl

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I opted not to get alimony, even though my lawyer advised me to get it. We both agreed to me being a stay at home mom and I didn't work or go back to school while married (he said he wouldn't watch the kids if I did).
> I didn't go after his 401k or military benefits either, I left everything alone and all that is paid is child support. I learned recently he got a raise, and while I could take him back and demand more CS, I wouldn't do that.


I don't get this. Why would you not at least get some help while you got back to school to get a degree which will help you earn a good living.

You staying home was a joint decision... meaning he has responsibility for it as well.


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## ScaredandUnsure

Mavash. said:


> Scared you are like my friend. All she wants is CS, a few household items and freedom. She opted out of alimony too even though she is entitled to it.
> 
> Although the verdict is still out because he's still fighting her on this even though she is being MORE than fair.


My ex and I co-parent really well. I can work all I want and make as much as I want as long as I don't try to get him to pay for child care. He's not concerned about anything as long as the kids are taken care of (which they are).

He's got a lovely house now, both him and his current wife work, so they can afford a more lavish lifestyle than I can right now. I need to look at my budget and start putting money away for a nicer place than I'm at now. Hopefully be out of this place by September, before the school year starts. We shall see lol.


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## ScaredandUnsure

EleGirl said:


> I don't get this. Why would you not at least get some help while you got back to school to get a degree which will help you earn a good living.
> 
> You staying home was a joint decision... meaning he has responsibility for it as well.


I think it was because I felt so awful about the whole thing. I didn't want to have a nasty divorce, which would effect the kids a lot more. I had a lot of guilt for a long time because in reality, I destroyed my family because I couldn't live with how taken for granted I felt. Plus I have this fear of confrontation which allows me to allow others to bully me into whatever it is they want. I'm working on that now though, I've had enough of it lol.

Basically it boils down to me being too weak to stand up for myself, which has been my problem from the day I started school as a little kid.


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## nice777guy

In Indiana, things are fairly clear. You split what you have and what you owe 50/50.

The Alimony / Maintenance thing - in Indiana at least - is usually temporary - 2 or 3 years - unless its a long-term marriage and the spouse is disabled or truly cannot work.

Financially, you'll both lose. Your lifestyles will both have to change to where you make the most of less money.

But, there really is more to life than money.


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## nice777guy

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I think it was because I felt so awful about the whole thing. I didn't want to have a nasty divorce, which would effect the kids a lot more. I had a lot of guilt for a long time because in reality, I destroyed my family because I couldn't live with how taken for granted I felt. Plus I have this fear of confrontation which allows me to allow others to bully me into whatever it is they want. I'm working on that now though, I've had enough of it lol.
> 
> Basically it boils down to me being too weak to stand up for myself, which has been my problem from the day I started school as a little kid.


How about you start thinking differently right now - and stop beating yourself up for a mistake you can't fix???


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## BeachGuy

We have two middle school aged kids, so me moving to Texas is not an option. I have talked to 4 lawyers and she very well could get alimony for life; just depends on how willing she is to negotiate and/or which judge we should get. It was a joint decision for her to quit work when we had kids, UNTIL they were both in school. It was also a joint decision that she would go back to work part time then and she "changed her mind". That was 6 years ago. Basically she wants to stay home and putter around the house all day with no responsibilities, so she refuses to go back to work. And of course now that she knows I want divorce, she would never get a job. That would be alimony-suicide at this point.

We haven't been physical with each other in many years. Which is the main reason I want to divorce. I wish there were some way I could claim that in the divorce to get the courts sympathy.

I guess it's just a crap shoot. I can file and hope for the best (which doesn't give me a warm-fuzzy at all). Or I can just stay here (which is just as bad) and enjoy my kids until they're grown and gone.


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## ScaredandUnsure

nice777guy said:


> How about you start thinking differently right now - and stop beating yourself up for a mistake you can't fix???


Hehe, trust me, I'm in rare form today. I would NOT want to piss me off tonight 

I'm pretty much over the guilt now, and try not to take the pot shots at myself anymore. It will take time, but I will get better at it!


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## Married in VA

In FL, I believe 17 years is the magic number for permanent spousal support. FL is WAY behind the other states in catching their alimony laws up to the present. 

I agree with Elegirl in that spousal support should be temporary at best barring some cases in which permanent support would make sense. 

Simply because your kids are in school is NOT a factor to consider when deciding if moving is best for you financially. Your kids will adjust no matter what. You have to decide whether to stay in Florida and pay through the nose or move to somewhere like Texas and save your financial butt. Also, your moving will make your STBXW have to get a lawyer and fight a custody battle to keep the kids in the state. She may fold under the financial pressure of having to retain/pay a lawyer.

Read the laws of your state or have an attorney explain them to you. Often with spousal support there are NUMEROUS factors that are taken into consideration. Her having a college degree works in your favor because she has earning potential. It is easy to show the court that she can work but refuses to. That alone may negate alimony. Remember, it's not what you know but what you can prove.


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## nice777guy

ScaredandUnsure said:


> Hehe, trust me, I'm in rare form today. I would NOT want to piss me off tonight
> 
> I'm pretty much over the guilt now, and try not to take the pot shots at myself anymore. It will take time, but I will get better at it!


Glad to hear!!!


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## nice777guy

BeachGuy said:


> We have two middle school aged kids, so me moving to Texas is not an option. I have talked to 4 lawyers and she very well could get alimony for life; just depends on how willing she is to negotiate and/or which judge we should get. It was a joint decision for her to quit work when we had kids, UNTIL they were both in school. It was also a joint decision that she would go back to work part time then and she "changed her mind". That was 6 years ago. Basically she wants to stay home and putter around the house all day with no responsibilities, so she refuses to go back to work. And of course now that she knows I want divorce, she would never get a job. That would be alimony-suicide at this point.
> 
> We haven't been physical with each other in many years. Which is the main reason I want to divorce. I wish there were some way I could claim that in the divorce to get the courts sympathy.
> 
> I guess it's just a crap shoot. I can file and hope for the best (which doesn't give me a warm-fuzzy at all). Or I can just stay here (which is just as bad) and enjoy my kids until they're grown and gone.


That last sentence - about enjoying your kids - its likely they can sense that things aren't right.

You are truly between a rock and a hard place.

I think a lot of people here have considered suffering through a bad marriage - but it takes a toll on your spirit.

Good luck...


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## one_strange_otter

Not sure yet for me. She's asking for the max though which is 30% of my income. Not sure how that's going to work out since she also wants me to take on all our debts......


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## BeachGuy

one_strange_otter said:


> Not sure yet for me. She's asking for the max though which is 30% of my income. Not sure how that's going to work out since she also wants me to take on all our debts......


I thought the max was 50%? That's what a lawyer her in FL told me a few years ago. I specifically asked him what was the absolute most the court could order me to pay.


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## sisters359

Remember that a big part of the court's goal is to keep anyone from becoming a burden to the state.

Also consider: Do you want your kids living in poverty when they are with your ex? That doesn't sound very good, does it? Courts are very good at sniffing out when someone is trying to take advantage of the system, so be very careful about moving just to improve your financial settlement. If she is at all smart or her lawyer is, she will know how to make it an issue, and judges don't like it when someone has obviously tried to play the system. 

It is much, much better to walk into a court with a FAIR settlement you have both agreed on. When you leave the decision up to the court, you can get totally screwed. And coming in with a settlement that is patently unfair and looks like it leaves one spouse lacking will NOT work in your favor if the judge chooses to over-ride joint agreements (which s/he can do in the interest of protecting the state from having a new burden).


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## enso

BeachGuy said:


> I'm scared to death to file for what I might get ordered to pay her. I'm fine with "fair", child support, alimony (for a time), etc. But I'm worried sick I'm going to end up paying her alimony for the rest of her life, her getting all of the house (which we have $50K equity in), etc. I just have this vision of me living in a cardboard box on the beach after it's all over.
> 
> I want so bad to get divorced but the financial fear is paralyzing me. She hasn't worked in 14 years but does have a college degree. I know it's considered a "long term" marriage and all that.
> 
> Did you guys go through this fear? Or you ladies if you were the sole breadwinner in your family when you filed?
> 
> What can I do to get past this and just file the damn papers? I'm sure I've built this up to be way worse in my mind than it probably will be.
> 
> Thanks.


From my readings (this is in Canada) all assets accumulated after you are married is split 50/50 so she cannot just take the house. Second , I would look at all your debts now and make sure they are in joint ownership so that is also equally split. My advise is get the best lawyer money can buy right away and get this advise fast. 


BTW- I recommend this book. It is probably a bad case and might scare the crap out of you but good to see how bad things CAN get so you can prepare for battle.

A Promise to Ourselves: A Journey Through Fatherhood and Divorce by Alec Baldwin (Oct 13, 2009)


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## BeachGuy

enso said:


> A Promise to Ourselves: A Journey Through Fatherhood and Divorce by Alec Baldwin (Oct 13, 2009)


Thanks for the suggestion but I'm not reading anything by Alec Baldwin. Especially after hearing the message he left for his kid that time.


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## enso

BeachGuy said:


> Thanks for the suggestion but I'm not reading anything by Alec Baldwin. Especially after hearing the message he left for his kid that time.


The message was terrible but I can tell you from reading the book he went to absolute hell and gives very good insight on inner workings of the divorce court and how unfair the system is to avg man.


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## one_strange_otter

BeachGuy said:


> I thought the max was 50%? That's what a lawyer her in FL told me a few years ago. I specifically asked him what was the absolute most the court could order me to pay.


I meant the max for 3 kids in texas. 20% for one, 25% for two, 30% for three......


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## In_The_Wind

I went through a divorce approx 17yrs ago at the time I was making 6 figures and during the divorce process it was expensive I paid spousal support even though she had a job and child support what would upset me the most is that she would use my money to pay her atty so I was fighting myself on my own dime eventually because of her behavior I was awarded custody the total cost of attys fees and what i paid was approx 50k over a 6 month ordeal I was given custody when my daughter was 3yoa, she is now 21 and doing really well, 12 yrs ago i remarried and we just celebrated 12 yrs in june


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## hookares

BeachGuy, all I can say is good luck!!.
I won't sacre you with my situation, but if you are residing in a small town where the "justice" system is a close knit community, then I suggest you find an attorney from some distance away from there.
This is true even if you are faced with paying twice as much as one of the local yokels charge.
If you can end up with some equity in the house and only have to pay child support along with an equitable split of any other assets, you will be doing far better than many.


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## Scolagiaco

Im in a unique situation and I hope I can get an answer here or come close to it. I've been married for 15 years, seperated the last 4. Spouse moved out to live with her new boyfriend. Their relationship went south, didnt renew the lease and parted ways. While she was with the new guy, we were working things out ourselves for divorce at a shorter pace. The kids wanted to live with me in which they currently are. All of a sudden since her and her boyfriend split, now she wants to go full tilt, take everything from me. MY BIGGEST FEAR NOW ... I have a malpratice settlment award granted to me from the New York Supreme Court when I was 5 years old. I am disabled with a progressive neurological disorder from a birth injury. I collect monthly checks from an annuity account. This money is supposed to make sure that I can take care of myself or be taken care of, plus compensation for the fact that I have to live with this all of my life and the ramifications of the disease. In Florida, Im told that my spouse can come after this money. I beleive this is EXTREMELY unfair.


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## toonaive

YOur wife having a college degree works i your favor. She chose not to work. Its not like she has no education to fall back on. Stop worrying yourself to death. Take some action to get an idea what the final result might be for you. Be prepared.


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## sapientia

From stories of those I know and here, the general rule seems to be the more hostile the split, the better the lawyers are paid and the more unbalanced the settlement. Marrying a spouse that likes to work, even with kids, seems to even out the financial load of a divorce if it comes to pass.

20 year marriage, one child, built our assets together from early 20s, split everything 50/50. No spousal support as both professional with some income difference but not material. Child support is a couple hundred bucks a month, all of which I put into an education savings plan (and topped to max, no help from exH). Figured it was the least we could do given we broke his home up. 

Hope this helps.


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## Happilymarried25

If this is your only income for the family and you never worked then to me that would be considered your income. Since you had a long marriage and she doesn't have an income she should be paid an alimony until she finds a job. If you do work and have an income then you should pay her from that income and she shouldn't get any of the money from your malpractice award since you were awarded that before you married. It doesn't mean she won't try. It's only natural for her to try to get as much money as possible when a marriage ends, that's why she hires a lawyer. You hire a lawyer too and the court will decide if she is entitled to the money. It's out of your hands.


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## Constable Odo

It all varies depending on your future ex-spouse and how hostile the split was.

My divorce: 13 years ago. Today I own my own 3500 sq ft house and still own half the house (paid in full) my ex lives in.

My brother's divorce: 6 years ago. Can barely scrape two nickles together, virtually lives in a cardboard box under an interstate overpass (literally, can only afford to rent, and then, only in the worst areas with the lowest rents.) He will likely be mugged some day, or shivved by a perp for his wallet, given the neighborhoods he's forced to live in.

We both live in the same state. Guess which divorce was more amenable.


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## arbitrator

*My rich, skanky XW thoroughly insulated her millions with a prenup executed back in 2004, just prior to our wedding ceremony.Despite being in a deep community property state like Texas, I got absolutely squat from her! She also tried to have the court order that I pay her back every red cent that she said that I owed her from during the course of the marriage, but the judge politely declined to order that

However, she tried to have the court order me to buy a life insurance policy on myself for 750k, with her as the sole beneficiary and with me footing the bill for the policy. I argued that that was tantamount to the extraction of "blood money" and I greatly felt that I had a bullseye painted squarely on my backside! 

The district judge balked at that and instead gave each of us the unfettered right to buy a similar policy on the other basically capped out at 250k. To my knowledge, she has already procured such a policy but I politely opted not to buy one as I could ill afford to pay the premiums!

Post divorce, she kept her many millions, her old historic home, her real estate holdings, her foreign assets, all of her horses and livestock; and I barely escaped with my meager 401K and the rights to all of my Social Security income!*


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## Shoto1984

Divorced in Florida a little over a year ago. Marriage was just over ten yrs at the time of filing. While things aren't perfect they are a lot better than they were 10, 15, 20 yrs ago. The language of the law has not changed but generally the way the courts are applying it has. Judges are generally much more equitable now with men being treated much more fairly. "Alimony for Life" is pretty rare these days from what I understand. "Half the length of the marriage" seems to be a pretty common gauge for alimony length. My ten years got me four years of alimony in a settlement (with the advice of both attorneys and a mediator who is a former judge). There is value is settling on negotiated terms rather rolling the dice and have a judge make the divisions for you. 
About two years ago an alimony reform bill came up, passed and was waiting on medicare fraudster Gov. Rick Scott's signature. He refused (in an election yr) saying he did not want to have all the settled cased thrown back into the courts as men stuck with permanent alimony sought to have their cases reheard. The same bi partisan group has reworking the language and is bringing it back. It just passed the house a few days ago and now heads for the senate. You might want to follow it and file after it passes (if you can stand the wait....)

Family Law Reform


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## unbelievable

I've been there a couple times and I made out better than most. The trick is to not be the one who appears most motivated. If your spouse is having an affair, wait till he/she thinks they are head over heels in love or someone gets pregnant. They'll sign away their own kidney, the kids, the house, whatever. Timing is important. You want to wait until she's about to bust to get out of her marriage but you don't want to wait long enough for the OM to find out what a witch she is.

If you want out but your spouse wants to keep you in the marriage, get her to sign a property settlement highly in your favor in exchange for 6 months or a year that you agree to "work" on the marriage. 
In any negotiation, the most desperate party gets the crap end of the stick.


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## tech-novelist

Divorced in 1997 after 12 years of marriage, from a wife who made about as much as I did, no children. I offered her the following:
1. She kept her retirement account, which was *much* larger than mine.
2. I kept my retirement account.
3. She kept the house and all the furnishings, and her car, and took over the mortgage. The house was in positive equity.
4. I got my personal possessions and my car, and a small bank account I had brought into the marriage.
5. An even split of all the other accounts, which didn't amount to much.

She didn't like that proposal, so she hired a supposed shark lawyer who tried to get the case transferred to a different jurisdiction where we had never lived, because there was an female judge there who always gave everything to the woman. Fortunately she was unsuccessful in this attempt.

After we each spent about $15,000 in legal fees, the result?
Exactly what I had proposed in the first place... of course minus $30,000.

Historical note: this was in New York, which was the last state to enact no-fault divorce, so someone had to be the bad guy. I volunteered, as the divorce was my idea. I decided on it after she told me not to wake her up if I had to drive myself to the hospital with chest pains. :scratchhead:


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## Shoto1984

technovelist said:


> After we each spent about $15,000 in legal fees, the result?
> Exactly what I had proposed in the first place... of course minus $30,000.


Tech's point here can't be over emphasized. It at all possible do mediation without the legal battle. My case was the same as Tech's in that she had family members and an attorney telling her she was going to get rich off of the case. In the end she got the same as if we'd just gone to mediation and spent 80% less, remained amicable, and not wasted a year living in turmoil.


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## MarriedDude

Never been divorced myself...BUT -My dad has been 5 times so far. 

The first (from my mom) was the worst...she got more than half of everything. They were only married for 4 years. He told me ( and I've seen the papers) -that she demanded full custody of me/alimony/house/car/etc..However, she offered to give him full custody (with zero visitation) in exchange for a new house (built for her), a new car, and 200,000 in cash...literally..cash. (this was in 1976). He took that deal. 

The other 4 had to sign pre-nups. He was pretty fair though. Each was given 100K in cash a house and a car. No spousal support other than the parting gifts. 

Growing up and seeing all of that taught me several valuable lessons:
1. Mate Selection is the most important decision you will ever make. Pick a good one. 
2. Get everything in writing.
3. Have at least 3 of the best lawyers in your area..
4. Have a good plan for when they try to screw you
5. Stacks of Cash have a visually appealing affect on many people that will make them do things that are not really in their best interest. 

I've been married to my baby since 1991. I chose wisely. She is un-affected by the sight of money..came from a family that produced nothing but soldiers for generations...She values family/love/loyalty/honor/country/service above all other things. 

Divorce sucks for everyone involved. I hated my mother for a long time -but she taught me a valuable lesson....what NOT to marry


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## Lon

Scolagiaco said:


> Im in a unique situation and I hope I can get an answer here or come close to it. I've been married for 15 years, seperated the last 4. Spouse moved out to live with her new boyfriend. Their relationship went south, didnt renew the lease and parted ways. While she was with the new guy, we were working things out ourselves for divorce at a shorter pace. The kids wanted to live with me in which they currently are. All of a sudden since her and her boyfriend split, now she wants to go full tilt, take everything from me. MY BIGGEST FEAR NOW ... I have a malpratice settlment award granted to me from the New York Supreme Court when I was 5 years old. I am disabled with a progressive neurological disorder from a birth injury. I collect monthly checks from an annuity account. This money is supposed to make sure that I can take care of myself or be taken care of, plus compensation for the fact that I have to live with this all of my life and the ramifications of the disease. In Florida, I'm told that my spouse can come after this money. I believe this is EXTREMELY unfair.


You need proper legal advice, however one thing I might point out is that you separated 4 years ago! How has she been supporting herself since then? Judges will lab LEAN towards keeping things close to the status quo. But it may depend more on your state's divorce laws.

Also feel free to start your own thread, this one was dead for many years before you revived it.


----------



## alexm

I got a little bit lucky, as my ex wife basically had to tell me about the OM (whom I didn't know existed) prior to our divorce.

She had left, giving me the "ILYBINILWY" speech, and I never even considered an affair. I asked her to move out of the house, given that it was she who wanted the marriage to end, so she did. 

We divided up the house contents fairly, and on our own. We had a separation agreement drawn up, just to make it legal. And planned to work out the assets/house/financials with the help of a lawyer, just to make sure we avoided any arguments.

We were basically headed towards an amicable divorce. One in which we each would have received 50% of everything, even though I had put far more into the mortgage and other things than she did.

Then (luckily) before I had signed anything re: divorce and financials, she had to tell me she was moving out of country. Why? For some guy. This was less than 4 months after she dropped the "I'm leaving you" bit. By this point, I had already started dating, so in her mind, I think, everything was cool. I was dating, she was dating, the divorce and asset division would go as we had planned, end of story.

Obviously it registered with me that this was awfully quick. Dating? Sure. Moving in with somebody 3 1/2 months after the breakup? Who lives on a different continent? After being with me for 14 years? Something's not right... And I think she thought things were so good between us at that time that nothing would change.

Her mistake. Had she waited until the divorce papers were signed to move to this guy, she would have been much better off financially.

So long story short, she could have walked away with close to $60k in cash, from the sale of the house mostly. She ended up with about $10k.

But because she jumped the gun in moving to this guy, which she had to tell me about, she screwed herself. I genuinely had no problem going the quick and easy route in the first place, even though she had brought much less to the financial table than I had. I still would have been fine, with more than enough to start over, and I had no interest in fighting over this and that anyway.

So I put 2 and 2 together, figured out (pretty easily, duh), that this guy had been "around" long before she decided she wanted out of the marriage, and that prompted me to protect my assets from that point. Of course she denied it, but it was plain to see. I haven't spoken to her in several years now, but close to 2 years after d-day, she was still denying it. One of the last things I ever said to her was that I saw international calls on our phone records long before d-day, with the country code happening to be from the one she had moved to 

So, long story short, I got lucky because she got stupid, and because she thought I was stupid. This allowed me to re-evaluate the division of assets, and protect my prior, sole, investment into our marital home, which I was able to prove easily, but only because I kept records.

This pissed her off, and I never heard from her again. I suspect she was expecting to make off with a tidy sum of money to start her new life with the OM in a foreign country, where she'd have to learn a new language in order to get a job. Instead, afaik, any money she made off with essentially paid for her moving there, and that's it. She probably had to leech off of OM until she got her s*** together.


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## Constable Odo

Shoto1984 said:


> It at all possible do mediation without the legal battle.


Yes, but all too often spouses view the court system as a method to exact revenge in the form of financial pain upon their partner for the perceived or real "wrong" committed against her/him. And, unfortunately, it is usually women using the court system against men, because women have been traditionally in the lower power position within relationships as men have been the traditional bread winners in families.


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## Runs like Dog

My tax lawyer cheated on her husband, divorced him and got half of everything including his pension. And she already makes more than he does. He scraped up enough to buy her out of her share of the house. Their kids are grown so that's not an issue. But financially he got hit pretty hard. She's already moved on to pressuring OM to marry her, put her on his medical coverage, give her a condo, etc etc.


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## SamuraiJack

I was very lucky in that she tried to split things evenly. She was in a big hurry to get out the door so she agreed to many of my negotiations. In the end we split quity on the house and left each others 401K's alone.
I bought out her equity and kept my house and she walked away to a shiny new life purchased with my surprise.


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## Wolf1974

I got off really really easy. I was going to get slammed in court for child support of almost 1k a month. When I told the judge I would loose my house, you know the little thing holding up a roof to keep children warm, he looked right at me and said I don't care. Lol. Luckily I was smarter than him and got him to write in the decree I would be responsible for all daycare expenses and NoT just pay my X 1k a month. I immediately pulled my kids out of the big box daycare they were in and found home daycare for a fraction of the price. X was pissed but ohh well

She initially didn't want alimony or 1/2 my pension but her mother talked her into trying for it. Luckily I had leverage and knew she screwed the other guy at work so I threatend to have them both fired by calling thier boss. The request for modification was pulled the next day

So I was facing about a 50k pull out of retirement and 1500$ a month I was going to have to pay and instead ended up just paying for my kids daycare which came to about 330 a month. I kept the house

I have friends in other states who lost almost everything so I know my case is rare. Everyone should have a prenup


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## WasDecimated

- 1/3, 1/3, 1/3...Michigan 

I pay out 1/3 of my monthly income which is based on the difference between XWW's income and mine. She would only work part time so her income was next to nothing. This applyed to 1/3 of the length of our marriage. 15 / 3 = 5 years. Two years down...3 to go

I lost 1/3 of my retirement and investments. This would have been 1/2 but 1/3 of it was pre-marital. 

I had to buy her out of the house even though all of the down payment money was mine...and I paid all the mortgage payments. 

I pay her child support every month, which she doesnt spend on the kids, even though we share 50/50 custody. 

I got stuck with half of her debt. She opened credit cards in my name (without my knowledge) 

She got all of this and all she had to do to get it was screw her old school friend...for 1 1/2 years


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## Wolf1974

Decimated said:


> - 1/3, 1/3, 1/3...Michigan
> 
> I pay out 1/3 of my monthly income which is based on the difference between XWW's income and mine. She would only work part time so her income was next to nothing. This applyed to 1/3 of the length of our marriage. 15 / 3 = 5 years. Two years down...3 to go
> 
> I lost 1/3 of my retirement and investments. This would have been 1/2 but 1/3 of it was pre-marital.
> 
> I had to buy her out of the house even though all of the down payment money was mine...and I paid all the mortgage payments.
> 
> I pay her child support every month, which she doesnt spend on the kids, even though we share 50/50 custody.
> 
> I got stuck with half of her debt. She opened credit cards in my name (without my knowledge)
> 
> She got all of this and all she had to do to get it was screw her old school friend...for 1 1/2 years


guys I know who get hit hardest seem to all come from Midwest states. Damn you lost a lot. 

I'm betting you are also the biggest advocate of prenups now too lol


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## WasDecimated

> guys I know who get hit hardest seem to all come from Midwest states. Damn you lost a lot.
> 
> I'm betting you are also the biggest advocate of prenups now too lol


I do...but I will never get married again. :scratchhead:
You would really be shocked if you knew the actual $ amounts! Cheating is rewarded up here with cash, prizes and parting gifts


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## tech-novelist

Wolf1974 said:


> I got off really really easy. I was going to get slammed in court for child support of almost 1k a month. When I told the judge I would loose my house, you know the little thing holding up a roof to keep children warm, he looked right at me and said I don't care. Lol. Luckily I was smarter than him and got him to write in the decree I would be responsible for all daycare expenses and NoT just pay my X 1k a month. I immediately pulled my kids out of the big box daycare they were in and found home daycare for a fraction of the price. X was pissed but ohh well
> 
> She initially didn't want alimony or 1/2 my pension but her mother talked her into trying for it. Luckily I had leverage and knew she screwed the other guy at work so I threatend to have them both fired by calling thier boss. The request for modification was pulled the next day
> 
> So I was facing about a 50k pull out of retirement and 1500$ a month I was going to have to pay and instead ended up just paying for my kids daycare which came to about 330 a month. I kept the house
> 
> I have friends in other states who lost almost everything so I know my case is rare. Everyone should have a prenup


Unfortunately pre-nups are far from a guarantee of anything, as "family court" is considered a court of equity, not one that enforces contracts. And they don't apply to child support payments at all.


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## tech-novelist

Decimated said:


> I do...but I will never get married again. :scratchhead:
> You would really be shocked if you knew the actual $ amounts! Cheating is rewarded up here with cash, prizes and parting gifts


It could be worse. In California and Massachusetts, if I recall correctly, after 10 years there is LIFETIME alimony, and in Massachusetts, I believe even a new spouse can be held liable!


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## sapientia

Wow, some of these stories are harsh. I have a son approaching adulthood who I need to teach balance between his heart and his brain.

Seems the lesson is: choose wisely. And don't ever choose a woman who doesn't want to work/have a career of her own.

I'm so glad I'm able to look my son in the eye and have him know I never screwed his dad over when we decided to divorce.


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## naiveonedave

sapientia said:


> Wow, some of these stories are harsh. I have a son approaching adulthood who I need to teach balance between his heart and his brain.
> 
> Seems the lesson is: choose wisely. And don't ever choose a woman who doesn't want to work/have a career of her own.
> 
> I'm so glad I'm able to look my son in the eye and have him know I never screwed his dad over when we decided to divorce.


what is sad about this is that when I look back at my experience, I am glad my W quit work to stay home. But I think that you are right, knowing what I know now, I am advising my sons the same....


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## DvlsAdvc8

BeachGuy said:


> What can I do to get past this and just file the damn papers? I'm sure I've built this up to be way worse in my mind than it probably will be.


It's about as bad as they say. This is one reason I stayed married longer than I should have - I had a lot of difficulty coming to decide whether things were so bad that it was worth such a financial hit. She had a degree and worked the whole marriage, but I made more than double her income.

You definitely take a step down in standard of living. I pay both child support and alimony, and went from a big house to a loft/condo. The big PITA was selling the house. I was struggling until it sold, but fortunately I was able to move in with a friend for a few months.

For me, there was just a day that came where I realized being free and feeling positive about the future was better than money and feeling dead every day. It wasn't really a eureka! moment... but more like serenity/acceptance.


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## Wolf1974

technovelist said:


> Unfortunately pre-nups are far from a guarantee of anything, as "family court" is considered a court of equity, not one that enforces contracts. And they don't apply to child support payments at all.


Not true in all states. In Colorado it can and does protect pensions, hOuses bought before marriage, accounts, such as kids savings accounts and so on

What it doesn't protect is wealth and purchases made during marriage. I have no issues with that I just wouldn't want a woman trying to come after my pension when she didn't earn any of it.

So prenups can and do work but they are limited


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## Wolf1974

Decimated said:


> I do...but I will never get married again. :scratchhead:
> You would really be shocked if you knew the actual $ amounts! Cheating is rewarded up here with cash, prizes and parting gifts


Cheating is awarded everywhere it seems


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## Wolf1974

naiveonedave said:


> what is sad about this is that when I look back at my experience, I am glad my W quit work to stay home. But I think that you are right, knowing what I know now, I am advising my sons the same....


I have daughters and I will also tell them about not marrying a deadbeat as well to include marrying and then supporting him through school or whatever. I have a female friend who pays child support and alimony to her x husband.

Family courts screw you but they are equal opportunity here lol


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## alexm

Looks like I got off lucky...

I can't believe anybody's pension would ever be touched in these cases, ever. You work 40-50 years, and if you're lucky enough to even HAVE a pension, it should be yours and yours alone. ESPECIALLY if it's your spouse who did the cheating.


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## pragmaster

I got lucky actually, apart from the emotional trauma of abandonment and the pain of a total heartbreak. 

We bought a house together. One day I came home and she was randomly gone. No kids, never supported her financially.

In Canada, you can't divorce until you've been separated at least one year, and in order to kick start the process one of the parties needs to order a petition for divorce to the court. When you do that, the other party is suppost to respond to defend against what the other is seeking.

In my case, I just wanted the property and I took the initiative to get the petition for divorce (she wanted to use one of those diy kits and I was like screw that). 

But when she left she put me in the hole in different ways I guess. I can't afford the place on my own, there were numerous repairs and renos to make and that put me back 10K. Not to mention the legal fees I had to pay (about 2K, but fortunately by law I can make her pay half of them).

She never responded to the petition for divorce, which means that the property ownership defaults to me. My intention was to repay her downpayment (about 13K and she transfer the title to me (via a trust through the lawyers). There is no reason for me to pay her anymore then that. That covers the downpayment and a little bit of potential equity (although the markets gone down). 

The EX wife is like so uncooperative. She quit her job and moved provinces, refuses to reply to my emails and so it's pretty much her loss. 

I got renters to cover my bum. In the end I came out on top. Sure, more debt, but now the $350K house is all mine, and I am only 25 years old. There is no way I would have been able to get the mortgage approved for that amount if I was on my own.


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## Married but Happy

OP, she broke your agreement to return to work, and if you divorce now, she will be unfairly rewarded. If you can't move, then you can only game the system. That means losing/changing your job (you won't have this option once you file), and taking a much lower paying one so she has to return to work to help support the family. After a year, file. Once it's all final, you can consider another career change. You may end up paying more alimony or child support then, but it will be a lot less than you face now with her not working at all.


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## Lon

Prag, same jurisdiction here, our home was valued around $300k but we only had about $15k equity into it. Deed was in my name because at one point it was in both our names but we had to refinance to pay her credit card debt (she was establishing her business) and bank wouldn't approve mortgage with her on the title. Legally it's community property regardless.

We also had around $20k in rrsps, all under my name, and so I cashed those in (and payed almost $8k of that in income taxes) and handed the money over to her in order for me to keep the house. 

I was house poor in it for a couple years but sold it and have been renting cheap since. Bought a trailer outright, caught up on the line of credit which was keeping me house poor, and have saved an additional nice sum for the down payment on my next place. And as crazy as it may be, my now GF and I are actually going to take a peak tonight at a beautiful 60acre riverfront lot that just came on the market!


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## Shoto1984

Someone has posted "Marriage....betting half of your stuff that you'll love this person forever" Don't quote me but its something like that.... My experience and this thread really make me question the whole marriage thing. I know that isn't the point of the thread and not what TAM is about but wow. Knowing what I know now I don't think I would go the marriage route if I were a young buck again.


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## Betrayedone

Regarding the importance of timing.......she left me, no lawyers and I got the house and alimony......she was rich. I came out ok but was devastated emotionally.....Finally got over it though and now have a good life free of that wench..........She couldn't get away from me fast enough....no other guy. Strike while the iron is hot and the other is most motivated to move on.


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## Constable Odo

Shoto1984 said:


> Knowing what I know now I don't think I would go the marriage route if I were a young buck again.


Virtually every man I know who has been divorced feels this way. Very few younger men, because of societal pressures to marry. However, the number of younger men who are starting to realize this is growing.

Why? I'm sure sociologists will have a field-day with it. I do not think it has much to do with losing 1/2+ of what they have, because, frankly, when you're young you rarely have much to start off with, so the concept of losing "a lot" is foreign.

When you reach middle-age and have started to accumulate assets, then that possibility is real.

Unfortunately, in those instances, men will tend not to (re)marry, because the court systems are unfairly biased towards women. It is wrong to have an arbitrary formula-based child-support formula enacted and zero accountability for how the receiving spouse spends the money. If the money is for the benefit of the child's standard of living, and not the woman's breast implants and tummy-tuck so she can look hot again to snag the next victim, then there should be accountability for how the money is spent, but the courts wash their hands of this once they make a judgement. 

Most men I know will happily support their children, if the amount of money is fair and equitable, has a basis in reality, and actually is used to support their child.

However, I digress.

Today's youth are some of the most "connected"... I wonder if the downward trend in marriage has anything to do with them reading about all the horror stories on the Internet, rather than necessarily "experiencing" them first-hand via a friend or family member.


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## Ripper

Constable Odo said:


> frankly, when you're young you rarely have much to start off with, so the concept of losing "a lot" is foreign.


This was me. Didn't have anything at the time, so I got out easy. 

I am firmly in the never again camp. Marriage guarantees a man absolutely nothing but a hard time if/when it fails.


----------



## tech-novelist

Constable Odo said:


> Virtually every man I know who has been divorced feels this way. Very few younger men, because of societal pressures to marry. However, the number of younger men who are starting to realize this is growing.
> 
> Why? I'm sure sociologists will have a field-day with it. I do not think it has much to do with losing 1/2+ of what they have, because, frankly, when you're young you rarely have much to start off with, so the concept of losing "a lot" is foreign.
> 
> When you reach middle-age and have started to accumulate assets, then that possibility is real.
> 
> Unfortunately, in those instances, men will tend not to (re)marry, because the court systems are unfairly biased towards women. It is wrong to have an arbitrary formula-based child-support formula enacted and zero accountability for how the receiving spouse spends the money. If the money is for the benefit of the child's standard of living, and not the woman's breast implants and tummy-tuck so she can look hot again to snag the next victim, then there should be accountability for how the money is spent, but the courts wash their hands of this once they make a judgement.
> 
> Most men I know will happily support their children, if the amount of money is fair and equitable, has a basis in reality, and actually is used to support their child.
> 
> However, I digress.
> 
> Today's youth are some of the most "connected"... I wonder if the downward trend in marriage has anything to do with them reading about all the horror stories on the Internet, rather than necessarily "experiencing" them first-hand via a friend or family member.


This is a complex issue. Part of it is that the increase in the relative standing of women in society (more college degrees, more work experience at higher levels, and general societal support for women) has decreased the status of men relative to women. Since women are hypergamous, this makes it harder for them to find suitable mates. 

Some men are figuring this out and saying "why bother working hard if I'm not going to succeed at attracting a woman". Add in the ease of research on the internet as to how risky marriage is in these days of no-fault divorce, the lack of social stigma for having sex out of wedlock, and (especially) the effective return of debtor's prison for falling behind in child support payments, and I think the stage is set for a precipitous drop-off in marriage.

As for me, although I've been happily married for almost 20 years now, I very much doubt I would marry again if something happened to my wife.


----------



## sapientia

Wolf1974 said:


> I have daughters and I will also tell them about not marrying a deadbeat as well to include marrying and then supporting him through school or whatever. I have a female friend who pays child support and alimony to her x husband.
> 
> Family courts screw you but they are equal opportunity here lol


Agreed. This comes in both gender flavours.


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## huh123

Anubis said:


> If he is in Florida, he's in a literal hellhole for divorce and lifetime alimony that persists even if he is retired or has Alzheimers. I would advice relocation to another state while staying the marriage, and then terminating it once residency has been established.



Crap I had a feeling about these broke a$$ child trafficking Floridians trying to stimulate their economy with any means possible. 

Anubis post should be a sticky.


----------



## EleGirl

huh123 said:


> Crap I had a feeling about these broke a$$ child trafficking Floridians trying to stimulate their economy with any means possible.
> 
> Anubis post should be a sticky.


No sticky, while it sounds quite sensational, it not exactly right.


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## huh123

Yes ma'am. Of course you are correct. The Alzheimer guys do get a small break. I think they are cut off Alimony payments the second they reach the age of 75.


----------



## EleGirl

huh123 said:


> Yes ma'am. Of course you are correct. The Alzheimer guys do get a small break. I think they are cut off Alimony payments the second they reach the age of 75.


Oh come on.

In FL, as in most states that some significant alimony marriages are classified by the length of marriage: Short, medium and long term.

life time alimony is usually only applied in long term marriages in which the lover income spouse has no way of increasing their income to a livable level and/or there are mitigating circumstances such as illness/disability.

Short term marriages seldom get any alimony. If they do it's only rehabilitative.

Medium term marriages (7-17 years) get alimony based on need it's usually rehabilitative.


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## Constable Odo

technovelist said:


> and (especially) the effective return of debtor's prison for falling behind in child support payments


Good friend of mine, oh, 20 years ago in his first divorce, was ordered by the judge to "find a job paying at least a minimum of $40,000 or go to prison". Despite the fact that he was former military (8 years until 26), currently in his last year at college (at 32) working on his bachelor's degree, and did have a fledgling business he was trying to get going in computer consulting for small business. Also, keep in mind this was in an area where $40k jobs were extremely rare (think Allentown, PA for instance).




EleGirl said:


> Medium term marriages (7-17 years) get alimony based on need it's usually rehabilitative.


Feminists sure love to preach how they are so "independent" from men, except when it comes to receiving those alimony payments, which most will happily accept and spend on new breasts and liposuction.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Shoto1984 said:


> About two years ago an alimony reform bill came up, passed and was waiting on medicare fraudster Gov. Rick Scott's signature. He refused (in an election yr) saying he did not want to have all the settled cased thrown back into the courts as men stuck with permanent alimony sought to have their cases reheard. The same bi partisan group has reworking the language and is bringing it back. It just passed the house a few days ago and now heads for the senate. You might want to follow it and file after it passes (if you can stand the wait....)
> 
> Family Law Reform


This is dead for at least another year.


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## Anubis

huh123 said:


> Crap I had a feeling about these broke a$$ child trafficking Floridians trying to stimulate their economy with any means possible.
> 
> Anubis post should be a sticky.





EleGirl said:


> No sticky, while it sounds quite sensational, it not exactly right.


You know.. It's been over a year since I posted here, and just this morning I get this weird feeling... as if I'm being talked bout. :rofl: So despite vacationing at the ocean (1 year anniversary), I wake up, reach for my iPad and surf over here...

(I stopped my regular posting here, and some other things in my life all at once because I was stretched too thin, and needed to give up some things cold turkey to get enough time back to deal other new demands for my time)

But to the topic at hand. The state you get divorced in makes a huge difference as to how you will fare economically. I ran across this site which is addresses the topic (and more), and is REALLY GOOD - a lot of people here should bookmark it. 

It's a draft book, authored by 4 women and one man, that interviews over 100 practicing divorce attorneys in all 50 states, and from an economic and impact view details and breaks down divorce as it actually happens - very much an academic research approach. It includes specific sections for all 50 states. It's enlightening, fascinating, chilling and sobering all at the same time.

Real World Divorce: Custody, Child Support, and Alimony in the 50 States

One of several key takeaways is that is courts and laws (almost?) everywhere are structured to produce a winner and a loser and that there are systemic biases that influence outcomes. 

Read it. You won't regret it.

Edit: They also have sections for Canada, the UK, Germany, and a couple others.


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## Constable Odo

Anubis said:


> Real World Divorce: Custody, Child Support, and Alimony in the 50 States


This is an excellent site. 

The section on the "Domestic Violence Parallel Track" I have first-hand knowledge of. 

The wife of my aforementioned "you must get a $40k/year job or I'll throw you in prison" buddy wanted him out of the house lickiteysplit. 

So, you guessed it... went to the court one day, said the magic words "I fear for my life", and he was served with a TRO while at work. 

Couldn't even return home to get clothes, had nowhere to sleep that evening, nothing. 

All this with not a shred of evidence, he has no criminal record, has never even be accused of domestic violence, nothing.


Welcome to the Feminist America.


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## Anubis

Constable Odo said:


> This is an excellent site.
> 
> The section on the "Domestic Violence Parallel Track" I have first-hand knowledge of.
> 
> The wife of my aforementioned "you must get a $40k/year job or I'll throw you in prison" buddy wanted him out of the house lickiteysplit.
> 
> So, you guessed it... went to the court one day, said the magic words "I fear for my life", and he was served with a TRO while at work.
> 
> Couldn't even return home to get clothes, had nowhere to sleep that evening, nothing.
> 
> All this with not a shred of evidence, he has no criminal record, has never even be accused of domestic violence, nothing.
> 
> 
> Welcome to the Feminist America.


Anyone reading should read and underline the sections talking about allegations of sexual abuse of the couple's children (see "Indirect Abuse Allegations" under the Domestic Violence section). Take note about the phrases to say to the kids doctors / pediatricians / teachers which will compel them to start an investigation yet give the spouse saying them denyability. 

Then read the interview comments from the DCF social worker in Massachusetts - totally chilling:



> "A standard tactic is getting the defendant investigated as a child molester by DCF [Department of Children and Families]," noted a Massachusetts attorney. "In case the social workers don't play along, though, the plaintiff will want to be able to deny that she initiated the process. Attorneys therefore will let their clients know that physicians and psychologists are 'mandatory reporters' to DCF. So the mother lets an apparently sincere-sounding concern slip to the pediatrician. 'Little Amy acts funny after she comes back from weekends with Daddy and is always touching herself.' The pediatrician's report kicks off the DCF investigation. The divorce lawsuit defendant now finds that he is the target of a potential criminal sexual abuse investigation." What good is that if the state agency can't confirm the allegations? "_Just putting the guy through an investigation is good leverage in persuading him to settle the case in favor of the mother,_" responded the attorney. "*If the case goes to trial, the plaintiff will disavow the DCF report and play innocent by saying that it was the pediatrician who made it, not her.*" Won't she have to admit on the witness stand that she did this to get a strategic advantage in her divorce lawsuit? "The father's lawyer can't ask her if she learned about using DCF as a litigation tactic from her attorney because that violates attorney-client privilege." We asked a DCF social worker to share her experience regarding whether women in multi-million dollar divorce lawsuits were prone to reporting the father for sexual abuse of the children. "*They all do that*," was her response. "*We don't typically take the time to investigate once we learn that the person reporting the abuse has a large financial stake in the outcome*."


----------



## tech-novelist

Anubis said:


> You know.. It's been over a year since I posted here, and just this morning I get this weird feeling... as if I'm being talked bout. :rofl: So despite vacationing at the ocean (1 year anniversary), I wake up, reach for my iPad and surf over here...
> 
> (I stopped my regular posting here, and some other things in my life all at once because I was stretched too thin, and needed to give up some things cold turkey to get enough time back to deal other new demands for my time)
> 
> But to the topic at hand. The state you get divorced in makes a huge difference as to how you will fare economically. I ran across this site which is addresses the topic (and more), and is REALLY GOOD - a lot of people here should bookmark it.
> 
> It's a draft book, authored by 4 women and one man, that interviews over 100 practicing divorce attorneys in all 50 states, and from an economic and impact view details and breaks down divorce as it actually happens - very much an academic research approach. It includes specific sections for all 50 states. It's enlightening, fascinating, chilling and sobering all at the same time.
> 
> Real World Divorce: Custody, Child Support, and Alimony in the 50 States
> 
> One of several key takeaways is that is courts and laws (almost?) everywhere are structured to produce a winner and a loser and that there are systemic biases that influence outcomes.
> 
> Read it. You won't regret it.
> 
> Edit: They also have sections for Canada, the UK, Germany, and a couple others.


I am familiar with the male author, who is EXTREMELY intelligent and an excellent writer to boot. I don't know much about his personal life, but am slightly surprised that he is so interested in divorce. Perhaps he got burned? Given that he lives in Massachusetts (I believe) and has made a ton of money in the past, that wouldn't be too unlikely, assuming he ever got married in the first place, which I don't know...


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## Anubis

technovelist said:


> I am familiar with the male author, who is EXTREMELY intelligent and an excellent writer to boot. I don't know much about his personal life, but am slightly surprised that he is so interested in divorce. Perhaps he got burned? Given that he lives in Massachusetts (I believe) and has made a ton of money in the past, that wouldn't be too unlikely, assuming he ever got married in the first place, which I don't know...


For his sake, I hope he didn't get divorced in Massachusetts. The section on that state is must read to understand just how awful divorce can be.


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## DvlsAdvc8

That site is a good read.

This quote from a reader stood out:

"How about let’s focus on ending [civil] marriage in this country. It’s well past the point of saving. The ticks weigh more than the dog."


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## Ripper

DvlsAdvc8 said:


> "How about let’s focus on ending [civil] marriage in this country. It’s well past the point of saving. The ticks weigh more than the dog."


Would be nice if while weighing in on same-sex marriage issue that SCOTUS would just deregulate the whole [email protected] thing. Get the government, courts, attorneys, and social engineers out of it and maybe a little bit of sanity would return.


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## tech-novelist

Ripper said:


> Would be nice if while weighing in on same-sex marriage issue that SCOTUS would just deregulate the whole [email protected] thing. Get the government, courts, attorneys, and social engineers out of it and maybe a little bit of sanity would return.


Exactly. Why shouldn't any number of people be able to make whatever contract they want among themselves? You would think that "small-government Republicans" and "marriage-positive Democrats" (for lack of a better term) would be able to agree on that!


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## naiveonedave

technovelist said:


> Exactly. Why shouldn't any number of people be able to make whatever contract they want among themselves? You would think that "small-government Republicans" and "marriage-positive Democrats" (for lack of a better term) would be able to agree on that!


It would be a disaster for a R to come up with such legislation, it would be seen as WWIII against women.


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## Constable Odo

Ripper said:


> Would be nice if while weighing in on same-sex marriage issue that SCOTUS would just deregulate the whole [email protected] thing. Get the government, courts, attorneys, and social engineers out of it and maybe a little bit of sanity would return.


Marriage is a sacrament. The government should not be involved with granting people sacraments.

Civil unions are really little more than a shared-property contract, and as such, should be subject to appropriate contract law.... a form of UCC, perhaps, tailored for that purpose.


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## sapientia

Constable Odo said:


> Feminists sure love to preach how they are so "independent" from men, except when it comes to receiving those alimony payments, which most will happily accept and spend on new breasts and liposuction.


"Most" is bitter hyperbole, Odo. I'm sure many who need alimony will spend it on education or tuck it away for retirement savings.

In any case, the needle is starting to swing the other way -- women are being asked to support their exes also. I could just as easily say those woman are helping support their exes booze, women or grass habit. Except that I don't believe that's the typical case either.

I do have a friend who was the major breadwinner in her marriage (insurance auditor). Her ex because an addict. She still buys groceries for him when the kids are going over for a weekend...


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## Constable Odo

sapientia said:


> "Most" is bitter hyperbole, Odo. I'm sure many who need alimony will spend it on education or tuck it away for retirement savings.
> 
> In any case, the needle is starting to swing the other way -- women are being asked to support their exes also. I could just as easily say those woman are helping support their exes booze, women or grass habit. Except that I don't believe that's the typical case either.
> 
> I do have a friend who was the major breadwinner in her marriage (insurance auditor). Her ex because an addict. She still buys groceries for him when the kids are going over for a weekend...


Of course, you can always cherry-pick examples which are statistical outliers.

Spending a day in your local family court, however, will quickly, demonstrably prove your assertion false.

Whatever "gains" you happen to think are being made are minuscule in the totality of the issue.


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## sapientia

Constable Odo said:


> Of course, you can always cherry-pick examples which are statistical outliers.
> 
> Spending a day in your local family court, however, will quickly, demonstrably prove your assertion false.
> 
> Whatever "gains" you happen to think are being made are minuscule in the totality of the issue.


If you want to get where you are going, keep on your path.

I'm not going to engage in bashing on either sex. Not my style. I believe people tend to attract what they focus on. In my case, I had a quite civilized divorce, and that was not due to luck or cherry picking.

All the best.


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## Constable Odo

sapientia said:


> In my case, I had a quite civilized divorce, and that was not due to luck or cherry picking.


As did I. Neither of which illustrates the typical scenario most men encounter when they traverse the family court system.


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## hookares

MY ex was in "tight" with the legal system in our home town so she got the house, the car and both contents.
The kids were out of college or one was still going for the last year. They belonged to two other salamis but I had foot the bill for their growing up.
I got my pension and the proceeds from a401-K which she thought was worthless.
Now she has lost everything and is homeless andI'm bitter, but getting by OK.


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## sapientia

Constable Odo said:


> As did I. Neither of which illustrates the typical scenario most men encounter when they traverse the family court system.


This is probably going to be my last post on this. I think I'd have more interest to engage on this topic by way of solution if deliberately inflammatory phrases like 'feminist' and statements such as the use of "most" alimony for breast implants, etc. weren't used or at least acknowledged that, while there may be some who misuse the support as intended, at least as many (probably most) do not. Of course, I haven't seen any *validated studies* on how alimony is used by their recipients to comment further.

I'm a high net worth professional woman, possibly by your classification a 'feminist' -- except I don't think I am. That's a problem when such micro aggressions are espoused without explanation, miscommunication can result. As I understand, such court orders are often for the indirect benefit of any minors involved, similar but not the same as child support (which is supposed to benefit the child directly).. a single mother or father who can receive alimony for a short time to get an education so s/he can have a better standard of living for their child seems like the right thing to do to me. I can understand, however, there might be many ex-spouses who would prefer their exes to stay stuck in the muck, for revenge or other motives.

If it were my situation and my ex needed this kind of support, I would have paid it gladly. I want my son to have a good life when he is with his dad and for them both to live good lives. As happens, we both made sufficient income that alimony was not required. But I'm sure if I needed it, my ex wouldn't have begrudged it to me either.


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## ScrambledEggs

Anubis said:


> It's a draft book, authored by 4 women and one man, that interviews over 100 practicing divorce attorneys in all 50 states, and from an economic and impact view details and breaks down divorce as it actually happens - very much an academic research approach. It includes specific sections for all 50 states. It's enlightening, fascinating, chilling and sobering all at the same time.
> 
> Real World Divorce: Custody, Child Support, and Alimony in the 50 States


Thanks for this. I feel like I owe the authors the price of the book just for reading my state. Very helpful.


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## Constable Odo

sapientia said:


> If it were my situation and my ex needed this kind of support, I would have paid it gladly. I want my son to have a good life when he is with his dad and for them both to live good lives. As happens, we both made sufficient income that alimony was not required. But I'm sure if I needed it, my ex wouldn't have begrudged it to me either.


Yes, but it is unlikely your ex would be spending the child support on breast implants and liposuction. (unlikely, which means a probability somewhere under .5 but not quite 0, so there's always a finite possibility he would want breast implants and liposuction, just as there is always a finite probability when you flip a quarter it will end up landing on its edge, however improbable.)

As I've stated in previous threads, most men I know are happy to provide child support for their children -- if they can be assured the money is actually spent for the benefit of the children.

Since there is no accountability how the money is spent, usually its on a new Lexus, tummy tucks, or wardrobe for mom, so she can snag the next victim.

Virtually every divorced male I know has experienced scenarios similar to these. Probability closer to 1 than 0.


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## Ripper

Apparently some dude in California has had enough and is trying to get enough signatures to put ending alimony on the ballot.

OC Attorney Drives Initiative to End Alimony in California | Los Alamitos-Seal Beach, CA Patch
_
"Backers of the initiative received permission this week from Secretary of State Alex Padilla to begin gathering signatures."_

_"If approved by voters, the initiative would end a court’s ability to award and enforce alimony, also known as spousal support, during marriage, upon legal separation, divorce or annulment.

Existing spousal support awards of less than 10 years would be terminated, unless a court grants an extension of up to one year.

Existing spousal support awards greater than 10 years would be reduced to zero at a rate of 20 percent per year over a five-year period."_

Probably just a fantasy, but I really hope this goes to vote. Be interesting to see if this ends up dividing along gender lines. Call me cynical, but I believe it would.


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## chaos

Not bad. We got divorced in California but since we were only technically married for five years, I didn't suffer the legal bad part of other men who divorced after 10 or more years.


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## sapientia

Constable Odo said:


> Yes, but it is unlikely your ex would be spending the child support on breast implants and liposuction. (unlikely, which means a probability somewhere under .5 but not quite 0, so there's always a finite possibility he would want breast implants and liposuction, just as there is always a finite probability when you flip a quarter it will end up landing on its edge, however improbable.)
> 
> As I've stated in previous threads, most men I know are happy to provide child support for their children -- if they can be assured the money is actually spent for the benefit of the children.
> 
> Since there is no accountability how the money is spent, usually its on a new Lexus, tummy tucks, or wardrobe for mom, so she can snag the next victim.
> 
> Virtually every divorced male I know has experienced scenarios similar to these. Probability closer to 1 than 0.


Your use of probability to make your point makes no sense. No objective data to support = GIGO. 

Just to preempt your next, I also teach at a university in a math-intensive area, so yes I know what I'm about more than most.

Carry on w your aggression of women. I'll take my leave. I hope it works out for you.


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## Satya

One of the points being made here is that support should come with a requirement for accountability and the necessity for full disclosure on what that money is used for. 

Businesses must do this. They get audited, etc. Being held accountable for the management of funds should indicate whether one or other partner is capable and dependable at doing so.


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## sapientia

Satya said:


> One of the points being made here is that support should come with a requirement for accountability and the necessity for full disclosure on what that money is used for.
> 
> Businesses must do this. They get audited, etc. Being held accountable for the management of funds should indicate whether one or other partner is capable and dependable at doing so.


I think this^ is entirely reasonable. If a man uses his support for drugs and chasing skirt, he should be cut off. If a woman uses it for breast implants likewise. I think the generalizations being made about the incidence of either are unsubstantiated.

I also think that there should be reasonable limits on duration of alimony-type support. If they can't get their house in order in say, 5 years, to get an education to improve their employability then that is their choice/problem.

I'm also a great supporter of primary custody going to the parent who is best positioned to raise their children. In my friends case, her ex is an addict, so she gets primary custody. I'm very pro-children in divorce cases.


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## EleGirl

Constable Odo said:


> Yes, but it is unlikely your ex would be spending the child support on breast implants and liposuction. (unlikely, which means a probability somewhere under .5 but not quite 0, so there's always a finite possibility he would want breast implants and liposuction, just as there is always a finite probability when you flip a quarter it will end up landing on its edge, however improbable.)
> 
> As I've stated in previous threads, most men I know are happy to provide child support for their children -- if they can be assured the money is actually spent for the benefit of the children.
> 
> Since there is no accountability how the money is spent, usually its on a new Lexus, tummy tucks, or wardrobe for mom, so she can snag the next victim.
> 
> Virtually every divorced male I know has experienced scenarios similar to these. Probability closer to 1 than 0.


Do the children have a roof over their heads? are they fed? do they have clothing? do they do activities? Are their school fees paid? If so, the child support went to supporting the children.


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## EleGirl

Ripper said:


> Apparently some dude in California has had enough and is trying to get enough signatures to put ending alimony on the ballot.
> 
> OC Attorney Drives Initiative to End Alimony in California | Los Alamitos-Seal Beach, CA Patch
> _
> "Backers of the initiative received permission this week from Secretary of State Alex Padilla to begin gathering signatures."_
> 
> _"If approved by voters, the initiative would end a court’s ability to award and enforce alimony, also known as spousal support, during marriage, upon legal separation, divorce or annulment.
> 
> Existing spousal support awards of less than 10 years would be terminated, unless a court grants an extension of up to one year.
> 
> Existing spousal support awards greater than 10 years would be reduced to zero at a rate of 20 percent per year over a five-year period."_
> 
> Probably just a fantasy, but I really hope this goes to vote. Be interesting to see if this ends up dividing along gender lines. Call me cynical, but I believe it would.


If this happens, any woman would be a fool for being a SAHM and having children. All women will have to work outside the home to ensure that if the marriage broke up that they could support themselves.


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## sapientia

Constable Odo said:


> Typical feminist response. Next you'll be accusing anyone who disagrees with you as beating you.


Oh... okay. Thanks for predicting my future. I hadn't realized this was about "beating" someone for you. Good to know.


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## EnigmaGirl

> Feminists sure love to preach how they are so "independent" from men, except when it comes to receiving those alimony payments, which most will happily accept and spend on new breasts and liposuction.


I'm a feminist and I don't agree with the alimony laws. I'm actually very glad to see them changing to more strictly termed amounts and lengths.

I believe that all adult people have a responsibility to be able to support themselves and their children. I also don't have fake boobs and haven't had any other plastic surgery.

Don't lump all women into one category. Not all of us are interested in being financial dependents. Some of us pride ourselves in being self-sufficient and financially responsible.


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## EnigmaGirl

> All women will have to work outside the home to ensure that if the marriage broke up that they could support themselves.


No, they'd have to have the ability to work outside the home in the event of a marital breakdown. Which is perfectly reasonable.

There's no doubt that women need to recognize the reality of the divorce statistics, the changing alimony laws, the difficulties in enforcement of support payments and the reality of what happens when you have no ongoing experience in the job market for a long period of time.

There's a reason why divorced women and their children are some of the poorest people in the nation. It doesn't help when women stick their heads in the sand and pretend it can't happen to them and their kids....its so irresponsible.


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## EnigmaGirl

> If it were my situation and my ex needed this kind of support, I would have paid it gladly. I want my son to have a good life when he is with his dad and for them both to live good lives. As happens, we both made sufficient income that alimony was not required. But I'm sure if I needed it, my ex wouldn't have begrudged it to me either.


I think the issue is that a lot of people go into marriage without understanding the divorce laws.

If you understand going in that the higher income earner is going to have to pay the lower income earner for a certain amount of time (depending on length of marriage) after a marital breakdown...even if that marital breakdown is caused, for instance, by the other spouse's infidelity...then fine. You've willingly signed up for the risk of supporting a low or no income spouse after divorce.

They really need to do an awareness class about divorce/alimony laws BEFORE people go through marriage ceremonies. It should be part of the requirement of your marriage license.


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## Wolf1974

EnigmaGirl said:


> I think the issue is that a lot of people go into marriage without understanding the divorce laws.
> 
> If you understand going in that the higher income earner is going to have to pay the lower income earner for a certain amount of time (depending on length of marriage) after a marital breakdown...even if that marital breakdown is caused, for instance, by the other spouse's infidelity...then fine. You've willingly signed up for the risk of supporting a low or no income spouse after divorce.
> 
> They really need to do an awareness class about divorce/alimony laws BEFORE people go through marriage ceremonies. It should be part of the requirement of your marriage license.


I agree. I would be in big favor of mandatory per marital classes part of which the discussion of prenuptial agreements, what they are and how they work in your state apply.

I think much of the problem is that when you're young and married you have little to protect. When I was first married I had nothing and no kids. Prenup wouldn't have helped me at all.

Now if I ever got married I have a house, vehicles, pension, investments, all to protect so a prenup is an absolute must.

Some movements are being made in areas of the country to get rid of alimony, good thing, and make child support payable not to the other spouse but direct funded, so they call it, for child expenses. In my case I never paid my x wife a single cent for child support. I instead was ordered to pay the child care expenses which I did directly so no middle men.

My career had to be put on hold so she got to work on hers and since got promoted. she now makes as much as me so I told her we would split it or back to court we would a go. She agreed so now we each pay half. Because of this set up I never felt taken advantage of. I would not have felt comfortable giving my x wife money and glad I didn't have to and never will.


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## EnigmaGirl

In my state, you can't protect the marital home. Its an automatic 50/50 split independent of what/who's monies were used to purchase the home...so a pre-nup wouldn't help with that.

But I agree with the rest. 

Part of the problem though is that you can open up a pre-nup under certain conditions in divorce cases. They need to firm up the laws even on that issue.

I'm also glad they're getting rid of alimony. I think its ridiculous. Adult people should be obligated to have the ability to support themselves.

It sounds like it worked out for you. Its great that your ex-wife finally learned to support herself too. Congrats!


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## Wolf1974

EnigmaGirl said:


> In my state, you can't protect the marital home. Its an automatic 50/50 split independent of what/who's monies were used to purchase the home...so a pre-nup wouldn't help with that.
> 
> But I agree with the rest.
> 
> Part of the problem though is that you can open up a pre-nup under certain conditions in divorce cases. They need to firm up the laws even on that issue.
> 
> I'm also glad they're getting rid of alimony. I think its ridiculous. Adult people should be obligated to have the ability to support themselves.
> 
> It sounds like it worked out for you. Its great that your ex-wife finally learned to support herself too. Congrats!


It does here in Colorado. My purchased house can be protected in pre nup. Once we buy together, after marriage is no matter who paid for it. I think that's actually fair though. I have no problems splitting anything we would earn together just want my past stuff and stuff for my girls protected


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