# Advice on a "Leap of Faith - Forget the Past"



## Ss01

Hi

I'll try to provide a summary of the last ~8 years or so - looking for advice.
I have been married 22 years - got married at 23yrs old.
My wife and I have, over the last 8 years, really gotten into a loop of lacking intimacy and sex. 
About 5 years ago, I had leaned too much on a woman that I knew for support and to get some of the emotional response I was looking for.
My wife found out of course and knew for months she said before asking me who this person was/etc/etc.
I told her the whole story. No physical affair but surely an emotional one.

About 6 months after that, I decided that the only reasons I was leaning on this lady was fear - fear of discussing the roadblocks in my marriage with my wife. I also had some borderline ED issues occuring at that time.

So I got myself a counselor, made a dedicated effort to get back to the gym to get in better shape, talked to my doctor for an anti-depressant, and talked to an endocrinologist for these ED type symptoms.

Around 2017 we stared couples counseling, at my request, because I was looking for more intimacy/sex/conversation in my marriage - not just single word type answers "oh that's fine / good / nothing much happened today / etc"
These simple replies were around long before I was leaning on this lady for emotional support.
One of the goals I wanted to achieve in counseling was to improve our sex life too. We were averaging about sex once every 3 months. In the start of our relationship too (I had very little self-confidence at the time) and there were 'rules' that were needed. When I would visit her, she would tell me that she "needs to warm up to me first now that I'm here". We didn't have alot of sex in the early part of our relationship. When we were married, there (for many years ~5 or so) was a "no touching rule" that when she got into bed I couldn't touch her for 20 minutes or so. I tried so many times. Even talking to her in text yesterday she said "you always tried back then"
Currently, our sex life has waxed and waned a bit. And has again been on the skids The last time we had sex was in November 2019 and I gave her oral, no intercourse/etc/etc. Even working up to me giving her oral was many years in the making, I wanted to do/try it and she was resistant. One of the things I had asked many times in therapy was for her to initiate sex a bit, just sometimes - let me know that she has desire for me. This happens rarely.
I had been incontact with a divorce lawyer of the last 2 years, and had not done that because I still thought there were things I could do to make her happy. More of simple touch/etc - things she asked for. I believed I was doing them - not out of force but because I enjoy them and she asked for them. For example, kiss in the morning in bed, before I goto work, I love you before I leave the house, text/snapchat during the day with simple messages or kissy faces. So I kept trying to see what I could do, based on what I heard, to be better for her. She also thinks I am way to assertive (I'm sicilian so there is that!) and she was right. I learned alot about how to modulate my voice to a lower softer tone, speak less forcefully, to try to better match what she perceived as non-confrontational. We talked about sex several times in counseling. I had said that we have alot to work on overall, sex is about 6 weeks...so lets not be greedy right now - if we can get to once a month that would be fantastic.

In feb 2020, I brought up again - why we haven't had sex. She said that she needs simple things like "a touch on the arm" or to sit a little closer on the couch. That's all she needs.
I was mad that she says its just these "little things" and I told her it seems like if they were so little, and I've been trying to improve our sex life and intimacy, that you would have mentioned it.
I told her, I thought I had been doing what you asked for. Being more attentive to kiss in the morning, always asking what i can do help with dinner, thanking her for some of things she does around the house, or a meal she makes/etc.
She also then told me that sex had become complex and awkward anyway. I asked her....we have been in therapy.... how long did you feel this way? I've been asking for more intimacy and sharing and knowing your feelings and it seems like you are still holding back critical things that could help us.
So I became increasingly frustrated, thinking back on therapy/etc and thought that enough is finally enough.
Two weeks ago, I said I think we should seperate. I gave her a divorce proposal based on what I had been advised by my lawyer as a starting point/etc.

We just had a conversation tonight where she said things like
Lets just forget the past, put a stake in the ground and move foward.
I thought you only wanted sex 1 time a month, I could probably have it many times a month
When you asked for more sharing - i thought you just meant about my day - that's all. (I specifically said even the therapist has been pushing for deeper feelings).

The conversation loop also becomes "Well if you wanted sex, you could have made the move". I then say "Yes you are definately right, but I have asked you to try a little for me. Reach out so I feel attractive/etc"
I also asked her, tonight "if she really wants sex multiple times a month, and she definately liked the oral from Novemember, why wouldn't you say it was great and I want it again - or anything at all?" Reply was "if you liked giving it to me, I could ask the same question"

I've said recently to her that I love her, and I want to be with her. But I need 100% of my wife. I don't want a glorified roommate.

I told her that I don't know to make any of these pieces fit. I am not sure that I can do a leap of faith, forget the past, and we will just start having more sex over time soon.
I also said that I am terrified about the person I may become over the next 2 to 3 years. I don't want to lean on another woman for emotional support. I don't want to become resentful (well I already am to a degree) and I don't want to become a score keeper. I said that it makes me feel bad about myself that you don't reach out for me. I also said it makes me feel bad that you still hide emotions/thoughts/etc from us - despite a few years of therapy.
She replied, well I am working on it. I am working on speaking up.

Other backround on this. We have two daughters who will be 16 soon. 
During the last 20 years, I have built a very successfull business.
I bought us a very nice new home - which has actually accentuated (for me) the issues. Living in this beautiful new home with a wife who hides her emotions from me and this sex standoff makes me feel really bad about myself.
I had started a few years ago, selling off some of my prized tangible items (cars mostly) 
I am 95% sure I am not attached to any of the physical things I own (well I do really like the new house!) so I am not worried about losing physical items or money. I can rebuild that eventually.

I am scared that if I do the leap-of-faith that we will still be back in the same boat.
Is this a lightbulb turning point for her? I don't know ....
In my brain - i think of course not. I've had a close friend say to me that I've done enough. I even asked her if she wanted an open relationship (maybe in 2017?) DId she have some sex fantasy or something that she wanted to live out and needed. I would support it - with a man a woman etc. I was grasping at straws there.
In my heart, I'd love to have a marriage that lasts forever.
But I can't do 10 years like we have been doing. I am not even sure I can do 2 without become a person I don't want to be.

What are the thoughts on this? I'd be really interested to ready any parallel stories or advice if someone has it.

Thanks!


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## MJJEAN

So, you threatened the relationship and now she is willing to say what you want to hear in order to stall for time/keep you around permanently. Don't fall for it. In the immortal words of Admiral Akbar "It's a trap!"

If she was really interested in fixing things she'd have mentioned her stated issues with sex in the years of therapy.If she really did want to have sex (with you) multiple times a month, you'd have been having sex multiple times a month. You can't square it because it's bullpucky.


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## Ss01

Hi

That's probably the most concise summary I could ask for! 

I don't believe her ... She drops this huge bomb that sex has been awkward etc. Really? After this long in therapy you mention this after I start asking why we haven't had sex in a while again? She then says she doesn't want to get scolded when she voices her thoughts because isn't that what I am asking for? It seems a little too circular...


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## MJJEAN

Ss01 said:


> Hi
> 
> That's probably the most concise summary I could ask for!
> 
> I don't believe her ... She drops this huge bomb that sex has been awkward etc. Really? After this long in therapy you mention this after I start asking why we haven't had sex in a while again? She then says she doesn't want to get scolded when she voices her thoughts because isn't that what I am asking for? It seems a little too circular...


In the Reddit DeadBedroom sub this circular thing is quite common.

Bottom line is actions, not words. For years her actions told you the truth of how she feels. Her words now are meaningless. If they were true, you wouldn't be here.

Beware hysterical bonding. Lots of DB spouses threaten the relationship, their partner responds by having lots of sex...for a time. Then the relationship stabilizes and the sex dries up because it's unnecessary now that the threat is gone.


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## Ss01

I read a deadbedroom PDF a few weeks ago... that described very similar to what I've been observing

And your "lots of sex for a while" .. yes that has happened! Well 2 times in a month being lots and then cools right down after the "problem" is resolved... 

Yikes...I've been in deep for a while 🙄


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## MJJEAN

Ss01 said:


> I read a deadbedroom PDF a few weeks ago... that described very similar to what I've been observing
> 
> And your "lots of sex for a while" .. yes that has happened! Well 2 times in a month being lots and then cools right down after the "problem" is resolved...
> 
> Yikes...I've been in deep for a while 🙄


Human behavior tends toward patterns. You are seeing the pattern now. The question is, will you break the cycle and stop the pattern repeating?


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## 3Xnocharm

You two were sexually incompatible from the very beginning, and you never should’ve married her because of that. She is giving you the runaround and only telling you what she thinks you want to hear, this is never going to get better in the way that you want it to. I think it’s time you corrected that mistake and divorce her, she has wasted too many of your years already. Go find yourself a happy life without her. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ss01

MJJEAN said:


> Human behavior tends toward patterns. You are seeing the pattern now. The question is, will you break the cycle and stop the pattern repeating?



I agree .. I had some bad cycles and got myself in the right place. I'm literally in the best shape of my life (250+ bench press etc), I don't want to slide into leaning on a woman, and I don't want to cheat, and I don't want to become a score keeper.

I had told my attorney to put papers in motion already... I have a call with them tuesday.

It's tough to hear the things you wanted to hear but only after a tantrum, well in this case a nuclear bomb


3Xnocharm said:


> You two were sexually incompatible from the very beginning, and you never should’ve married her because of that. She is giving you the runaround and only telling you what she thinks you want to hear, this is never going to get better in the way that you want it to. I think it’s time you corrected that mistake and divorce her, she has wasted too many of your years already. Go find yourself a happy life without her.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I would never consider it a waste at all. Perhaps moving forward if we stayed together and then I looked back and thought dammit! Yes. 
She seems to be saying that she understands my view, she will work on being more asserting, should have been working on that in therapy, should have brought up things that she thought in therapy. So my major roadblock here - if she has withheld critical parts of information that could be helpful and she withheld this in the 'safe space' of a therapist office ... what do I do to resolve that in my mind and in reality?
Talking to her today in text, she said 'honestly, when I think about November when we had sex - i was wondering if I did something wrong'. Huh??? I said to her, if that is the case and I have been desperate for you to share thoughts/feelings/etc why not tell me that then. Maybe not the same night, but the next day or something. Why make me wait months and months, so i feel like an ass, because i don't know what is going on. I told her I would have said anything to help reassure her in the moment back in November. Its like she can have her cake and eat it too, sort of. She can tell me "well you asked me to share, then I share, and you get mad". I said yes, but I thought the sharing would not come with an 8-12 week latency. I used a crude example of dogs nose...you can't hit the dog 2 weeks later after it pee'd on the carpet .. it will have no idea what is going on. Yes that was my example - i put myself in the position of the dog :O
She said that she is a work in progress and needs to do better. I agree, but that hasn't happened in therapy. And if she knew it -- what else is she hiding emotionally/etc that I'll discover in another 12 months or so.... what a mess


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## Cynthia

The time for talk is over. You are at the point where you are about to divorce your wife if you don't see a change. I suggest you stop talking to her about any of this. Simply approach her in a loving manner several times per day such as when you kiss her in the morning. Hug her and hold her hand. Sit next to her on the couch. Put your arm around her. Initiate sex.

If she responds favorably, continue to do this and initiate sex at least twice per week.

If she turns you away or complains, tell her this is why you are seeking a divorce.

I am not recommending divorce, but since you are planning to divorce her if she continues along the same path of disinterest and you don't really want a divorce, you might give this a try and see what happens. She doesn't seem capable of initiation, but you can initiate and see what happens. If she doesn't respond favorably, then at least you gave it a last shot.


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## BluesPower

So honestly, why stay in this?

Why put yourself through this any more at all? Just because you love her? 

Really??? 

Unless the divorce will go through....


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## Ss01

Cynthia said:


> The time for talk is over. You are at the point where you are about to divorce your wife if you don't see a change. I suggest you stop talking to her about any of this. Simply approach her in a loving manner several times per day such as when you kiss her in the morning. Hug her and hold her hand. Sit next to her on the couch. Put your arm around her. Initiate sex.
> 
> If she responds favorably, continue to do this and initiate sex at least twice per week.
> 
> If she turns you away or complains, tell her this is why you are seeking a divorce.
> 
> I am not recommending divorce, but since you are planning to divorce her if she continues along the same path of disinterest and you don't really want a divorce, you might give this a try and see what happens. She doesn't seem capable of initiation, but you can initiate and see what happens. If she doesn't respond favorably, then at least you gave it a last shot.


Well...we talked about this at the start of February when I asked why we hadn't been intimate in a while. She said that she just needed a little more physical touch, a hand on a shoulder things like that. I was a little upset that if it's just a 'simple' thing that she wouldnt bring that up earlier. I got over that and then tried to pay even more attention to small touches or sitting a little closer. She recently told me that she did really like it! I asked ok, well doesn't that make you want to reach out for me. Then she says well my period was erratic so that wasn't a good time. I said ok...but nothing? Kissing? Make out anything? I said it doesn't have to lead to full sex all the time ... So I think we went down that road. She said she needed more time and was just starting to really warm up again. It's like the carrot is always right there and if i only do one more thing I'll get everything I want...


BluesPower said:


> So honestly, why stay in this?
> 
> Why put yourself through this any more at all? Just because you love her?
> 
> Really???
> 
> Unless the divorce will go through....


I agree... I wish the kids were 18 but it doesn't really matter the difference between 16 vs 18 .... It's going to be sad and hard all the way around anyway


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## Emerging Buddhist

It will be sad and hard all the way around.

Has she told you she loves you but is not in love with you?

Her actions are far more important than a carrot-rich diet of words.

This dance can last a long time before your partner will tire... you will have to take the lead.


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## 3Xnocharm

This is crap. Nothing but ridiculous excuses from her and hoop jumping for you. At the end of the day what it boils down to is that she doesn’t have real desire for you, or enough respect for you to be honest about it. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

She doesn’t want a divorce so if she thinks that’s even a remote possibility she’s going to tell you whatever she thinks she needs to for that not to happen. And it will likely be temporary change because that’s easy. Real, permanent change is hard and that’s another story.


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## Ss01

Openminded said:


> She doesn’t want a divorce so if she thinks that’s even a remote possibility she’s going to tell you whatever she thinks she needs to for that not to happen. And it will likely be temporary change because that’s easy. Real, permanent change is hard and that’s another story.


You're right! It took a huge amount of effort to talk about my failures, get help, do so counseling.. I read alot of books too.. not a conversation. A friend of mine said that people can say anything under stress to make the stress go away


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## Ss01

Emerging Buddhist said:


> It will be sad and hard all the way around.
> 
> Has she told you she loves you but is not in love with you?
> 
> Her actions are far more important than a carrot-rich diet of words.
> 
> This dance can last a long time before your partner will tire... you will have to take the lead.


No, she says she loves me very much. We were talking about the gym. She is a runner and is in good shape! She usually doesn't go-to the gym. I usually don't run. I've trained with her to run some 5ks while she has run the 15k or 20k portion of the same race. I even flew us to Antigua for 4 days for the "run in paradise". So I keep asking her once a week, "come to the gym, let's go workout together" her reply consistently was "no I hate the gym". I asked for weeks and weeks recently .. almost 4 months in a row. She said to me talking and in text last night "I didn't know how much value you placed on the gym. If you had said to me that you were feeling really sad because I wasn't going to the gym spend time with you, then I'm sure I would have went" I guess that's a point, maybe I need to ask in a clear fashion providing all of the emotional details for a common simple request like come to the gym with me so we can work out and I'll take you to breakfast after. Not even once a month?


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## Girl_power

I am always for saving a marriage. But come onnnn she wasn’t even trying. She couldn’t give you any effort at all. You are asking for very very little and she isn’t trying. 

If I were you I honestly don’t know what I would do. The problem is, it’s not only about sex you guys have a lack of emotional connection, and at that point there is no point. 

I personally think that you should try again. But this time, she needs to do the heavy lifting. She needs to prove to you that she wants this marriage and she is willing to do what it takes. You have needs and wants too and it isn’t all about her all the time. She has forgotten that. 

Give her like 4 months. Don’t tell her that, but set it on your calendar. Give her a change to change, stop managing the relationship and controlling everything. Give her a warning that your done being the manager. And see how it goes.


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> No, she says she loves me very much. We were talking about the gym. She is a runner and is in good shape! She usually doesn't go-to the gym. I usually don't run. I've trained with her to run some 5ks while she has run the 15k or 20k portion of the same race. I even flew us to Antigua for 4 days for the "run in paradise". So I keep asking her once a week, "come to the gym, let's go workout together" her reply consistently was "no I hate the gym". I asked for weeks and weeks recently .. almost 4 months in a row. She said to me talking and in text last night "I didn't know how much value you placed on the gym. If you had said to me that you were feeling really sad because I wasn't going to the gym spend time with you, then I'm sure I would have went" I guess that's a point, maybe I need to ask in a clear fashion providing all of the emotional details for a common simple request like come to the gym with me so we can work out and I'll take you to breakfast after. Not even once a month?


What are you even talking about this for, what difference do it make. 

Your wife does not love you romantically, she never has. She is not now and never has been sexually attracted to you. 

What do people have to say to you to get you to understand:

1) Your wife does not love you. 
2) She is using you.
3) She will never love you.
4) YOU have serious issue because you have fallen for this crap and allow yourself to be treated this way...

File for divorce now and move on...


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## Ss01

Girl_power said:


> I am always for saving a marriage. But come onnnn she wasn’t even trying. She couldn’t give you any effort at all. You are asking for very very little and she isn’t trying.
> 
> If I were you I honestly don’t know what I would do. The problem is, it’s not only about sex you guys have a lack of emotional connection, and at that point there is no point.
> 
> I personally think that you should try again. But this time, she needs to do the heavy lifting. She needs to prove to you that she wants this marriage and she is willing to do what it takes. You have needs and wants too and it isn’t all about her all the time. She has forgotten that.
> 
> Give her like 4 months. Don’t tell her that, but set it on your calendar. Give her a change to change, stop managing the relationship and controlling everything. Give her a warning that your done being the manager. And see how it goes.



Oh my god you're killing you're me 😞
Two weeks ago, the counselor we were using said that she wants to treat this as a marriage in crisis. And that we need a commitment for 90 days that we're going to put everything we have into the marriage. No one's going to send anybody home no one's going to go to a parent nobody's going to have an affair etc. So I said yes I'm a thousand percent in and she said yes 100%. the therapist also gave us a book recommendation to read, the rules of a modern marriage. I don't like to read I usually read only for information. She reads all the time. I read that book 300 some pages in a day and a half. She only got the page 44 by the time we had our next weekly therapy meeting. During the therapy meeting I start a talking about this 90-day and that I'm glad to have this dedicated time we're really going to focus. Apparently this was news to everyone. even the therapist thought that the 90-day thing was my idea and you can't really tie any kind of timelines to this stuff. I'm on the video call with the therapist and my wife and I'm defending this Twilight zone reality like a kind of crazy person. She said say that she will work on anything. I was pressing this issue of this 90-day, and I even said we didn't make any decision as to what would happen after 90 days just that we would all see how we feel after 90 days. And I was just out there in the breeze on this whole thing. Feeling like an idiot. later on that evening she said that she didn't even want to know when the 90 days was up because she couldn't even think about it. So I guess we kind of tried to do a couple month crash course put everything in type of idea. And that sort of fizzled in a week. She says that she'll work on things and improve and work on her assertiveness for what her feelings.. I was saying to a friend if my kids were 18 there would be 0000 chance of tolerating this whatsoever. Kids are almost 16 now. I could probably do another two more years but to what point?


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## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> What are you even talking about this for, what difference do it make.
> 
> Your wife does not love you romantically, she never has. She is not now and never has been sexually attracted to you.
> 
> What do people have to say to you to get you to understand:
> 
> 1) Your wife does not love you.
> 2) She is using you.
> 3) She will never love you.
> 4) YOU have serious issue because you have fallen for this crap and allow yourself to be treated this way...
> 
> File for divorce now and move on...


I know ... Well she does love me but I think it's really just surface deep. She has even characterized herself many times as not a deep person. I have walked back from the edge to try harder...mostly because my kids were young. I was not going to split up with 11 Year old or 9! Year old kids. I would not have been able to bring myself to do it. Kids are almost 16 ... 18 will be here soon. I could squeak by for 2 more years...but I am virtually out of patience. I'm not perfect either. I have said things too that have hurt her...pretty sure she didn't like my emotional involvement with another woman years ago as I mentioned above. I tried to take ownership of that, apologize, and better myself. I think that's run it course... I'd like a more emotionally fullfilling relationship...which I'm sure would naturally lead to more physical stuff :0


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## Ss01

Ss01 said:


> I know ... Well she does love me but I think it's really just surface deep. She has even characterized herself many times as not a deep person. I have walked back from the edge to try harder...mostly because my kids were young. I was not going to split up with 11 Year old or 9! Year old kids. I would not have been able to bring myself to do it. Kids are almost 16 ... 18 will be here soon. I could squeak by for 2 more years...but I am virtually out of patience. I'm not perfect either. I have said things too that have hurt her...pretty sure she didn't like my emotional involvement with another woman years ago as I mentioned above. I tried to take ownership of that, apologize, and better myself. I think that's run it course... I'd like a more emotionally fullfilling relationship...which I'm sure would naturally lead to more physical stuff :0


I do have a 1030 call tomorrow with my lawyer. I told him last week to proceed ahead. I had written her 4 page speration proposal and gave it to her last week. I am 98% there this time ...


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> I know ... Well she does love me but I think it's really just surface deep. She has even characterized herself many times as not a deep person. I have walked back from the edge to try harder...mostly because my kids were young. I was not going to split up with 11 Year old or 9! Year old kids. I would not have been able to bring myself to do it. Kids are almost 16 ... 18 will be here soon. I could squeak by for 2 more years...but I am virtually out of patience. I'm not perfect either. I have said things too that have hurt her...pretty sure she didn't like my emotional involvement with another woman years ago as I mentioned above. I tried to take ownership of that, apologize, and better myself. I think that's run it course... I'd like a more emotionally fullfilling relationship...which I'm sure would naturally lead to more physical stuff :0


You sir are delusional. She might love you like a dog or cat, but not like a person. 

She keeps stringing you along, telling you she loves you. 

Listen, you are almost sexless, for the most part, that is not going to change. She knows you are too weak to divorce her. Why are you doing this to yourself. 

I will tell you something else, you are going to find out that she is having and affair, She has a lover and it is not you. 

YOU SHOULD NOT WASTE one more minute of your life with this horrible woman. 

SHE IS NEVER GOING TO BE A WIFE FOR YOU, SHE WILL NEVER LOVER YOU. 

Please wake up and save yourself...


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## Girl_power

Or maybe take a year off and be legally separated. Date, do whatever and you will see what your life will be like post divorce. Divorce is a permanent situation. Who knows, guy might decide you would rather be married, or you might decide you love being divorced.


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## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> What are you even talking about this for, what difference do it make.
> 
> Your wife does not love you romantically, she never has. She is not now and never has been sexually attracted to you.
> 
> What do people have to say to you to get you to understand:
> 
> 1) Your wife does not love you.
> 2) She is using you.
> 3) She will never love you.
> 4) YOU have serious issue because you have fallen for this crap and allow yourself to be treated this way...
> 
> File for divorce now and move on...





BluesPower said:


> You sir are delusional. She might love you like a dog or cat, but not like a person.
> 
> She keeps stringing you along, telling you she loves you.
> 
> Listen, you are almost sexless, for the most part, that is not going to change. She knows you are too weak to divorce her. Why are you doing this to yourself.
> 
> I will tell you something else, you are going to find out that she is having and affair, She has a lover and it is not you.
> 
> YOU SHOULD NOT WASTE one more minute of your life with this horrible woman.
> 
> SHE IS NEVER GOING TO BE A WIFE FOR YOU, SHE WILL NEVER LOVER YOU.
> 
> Please wake up and save yourself...


'


Girl_power said:


> Or maybe take a year off and be legally separated. Date, do whatever and you will see what your life will be like post divorce. Divorce is a permanent situation. Who knows, guy might decide you would rather be married, or you might decide you love being divorced.


It is permanent. I talked to my lawyer today and not worried about anything he said regarding money/things/etc. 
So I have updated my "separation plan" document and will give her round2 to see what she says.
She hasn't said anything regarding the first document. 
However, she has been saying alot of things now like "i need to be more assertive, i should do some counseling, i can initiate, its important to communicate and be adults in real relationship". Yah, ok .. not sure I believe all this new found ability since I said i want a divorce.
I think the only possible way to save it, is some time apart to relieve the pressure of a romantic relationship and work on things independently while still seeing each other a bit during the week. So like a year-off-etc


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> '
> 
> It is permanent. I talked to my lawyer today and not worried about anything he said regarding money/things/etc.
> So I have updated my "separation plan" document and will give her round2 to see what she says.
> She hasn't said anything regarding the first document.
> However, she has been saying alot of things now like "i need to be more assertive, i should do some counseling, i can initiate, its important to communicate and be adults in real relationship". Yah, ok .. not sure I believe all this new found ability since I said i want a divorce.
> I think the only possible way to save it, is some time apart to relieve the pressure of a romantic relationship and work on things independently while still seeing each other a bit during the week. So like a year-off-etc


So let's get this straight... YOU want to continue to not get laid or have a woman actually, romantically love you for another year... Is that right?

What 20 years of that is not enough for you. You need another couple of years tacked on so you can WORK ON YOURSELF?????

Why, why, why, would you do that. I guess you do not believe that she DOES NOT LOVE YOU romantically, sexually or any other way.

SHE IS NOT INTO YOU. SHE DOES NOT LOVE YOU. SHE DOES NOT THINK OF YOU SEXUALLY IN ANY WAY.

Why is that so hard for you to accept? What are you so scared of. Are you some type of stupid looking deformed clown? Are you socially awkward? Are you stupid and cannot carry on a conversation with at person.

I bet you are not. And as such, you are a hot item on the dating market, do you not see that?

Why are you thinking about wasting another minute on this woman???


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> So let's get this straight... YOU want to continue to not get laid or have a woman actually, romantically love you for another year... Is that right?
> 
> What 20 years of that is not enough for you. You need another couple of years tacked on so you can WORK ON YOURSELF?????
> 
> Why, why, why, would you do that. I guess you do not believe that she DOES NOT LOVE YOU romantically, sexually or any other way.
> 
> SHE IS NOT INTO YOU. SHE DOES NOT LOVE YOU. SHE DOES NOT THINK OF YOU SEXUALLY IN ANY WAY.
> 
> Why is that so hard for you to accept? What are you so scared of. Are you some type of stupid looking deformed clown? Are you socially awkward? Are you stupid and cannot carry on a conversation with at person.
> 
> I bet you are not. And as such, you are a hot item on the dating market, do you not see that?
> 
> Why are you thinking about wasting another minute on this woman???


Hi
I appreciate what you are saying. Thank you!
I told her today that my main issue to is that i dont think i can proceed in good faith to 'wait and see'
The only possible way would be some kind of seperation-and-try-again but I think that is very very unlikely to succeed.
Give then the past 20 years, its not going to change - not the time I would like OR to the extent I would like. Those are two large blocks to get over.
I haven't cracked any mirrors with my reflection lately ... so i have that going for me


----------



## Openminded

People say a lot of stuff when they’re faced with a divorce they don’t want. Whether they can consistently put it all into action — forever — is another story. I’m not a fan of separating to work on a marriage. You tend to be on your best behavior when you only see your partner now and then. That gives you the illusion the problems are gone when they likely aren’t.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> People say a lot of stuff when they’re faced with a divorce they don’t want. Whether they can consistently put it all into action — forever — is another story. I’m not a fan of separating to work on a marriage. You tend to be on your best behavior when you only see your partner now and then. That gives you the illusion the problems are gone when they likely aren’t.


i agree, i would rather not separate and then come back together only to seperate again. i hate this emotional turmoil but i need to end it otherwise it will go on for many many years if not forever


----------



## Yeswecan

Ss01 said:


> No, she says she loves me very much. We were talking about the gym. She is a runner and is in good shape! She usually doesn't go-to the gym. I usually don't run. I've trained with her to run some 5ks while she has run the 15k or 20k portion of the same race. I even flew us to Antigua for 4 days for the "run in paradise". So I keep asking her once a week, "come to the gym, let's go workout together" her reply consistently was "no I hate the gym". I asked for weeks and weeks recently .. almost 4 months in a row. She said to me talking and in text last night "I didn't know how much value you placed on the gym. If you had said to me that you were feeling really sad because I wasn't going to the gym spend time with you, then I'm sure I would have went" I guess that's a point, maybe I need to ask in a clear fashion providing all of the emotional details for a common simple request like come to the gym with me so we can work out and I'll take you to breakfast after. Not even once a month?


Perhaps your W sex drive is diminished due to the running and keeping in shape. As I understand it, this can make the menstrual cycle get out of sync or sometimes stop all together. Your W said her cycle was whacked correct? 
This kind of training probably zapped any sex drive your W may have or had.


----------



## Ss01

Yeswecan said:


> Perhaps your W sex drive is diminished due to the running and keeping in shape. As I understand it, this can make the menstrual cycle get out of sync or sometimes stop all together. Your W said her cycle was whacked correct?
> This kind of training probably zapped any sex drive your W may have or had.


This is further confirmation that I have tried way too hard. I had 'gently' mentioned that, showed her some women health articles.
She changed her running a bit. Her cycle is pretty hit-or-miss too. I asked her about Dr and that I would go with here "No, they won't do anything unless its months in row."
She has odd eating habits too. A spoonfull of peanut butter for breakfast, a 3 mile run, some lunch, and then a regular dinner together.


----------



## Yeswecan

Ss01 said:


> This is further confirmation that I have tried way too hard. I had 'gently' mentioned that, showed her some women health articles.
> She changed her running a bit. Her cycle is pretty hit-or-miss too. I asked her about Dr and that I would go with here "No, they won't do anything unless its months in row."
> She has odd eating habits too. A spoonfull of peanut butter for breakfast, a 3 mile run, some lunch, and then a regular dinner together.



IMO...your W has exercised and eaten(nothing) her sex drive away to oblivion. It appears to be obsessive perhaps. Enough so your W will string you along with nonsense excuses to keep up the running and eating nothing.


----------



## Ss01

Yeswecan said:


> IMO...your W has exercised and eaten(nothing) her sex drive away to oblivion. It appears to be obsessive perhaps. Enough so your W will sting you along with nonsense excuses.


you are probably right to a large degree. the thought crossed my mind - talked to my sister about it/etc. 
i was having some physical trouble a while ago (~4 to 5 years ... hey it happens!) went to doctors got a better lifestyle/etc. no silver bullet but a combination of things that made better and fixed my issue


----------



## Yeswecan

Ss01 said:


> you are probably right to a large degree. the thought crossed my mind - talked to my sister about it/etc.
> i was having some physical trouble a while ago (~4 to 5 years ... hey it happens!) went to doctors got a better lifestyle/etc. no silver bullet but a combination of things that made better and fixed my issue


Understand you can not "fix" your W. Only your W can do this. I appears your W is satisfied with running and eating much of nothing. Marriage is just vehicle to stable home and place to live. I do not know what the answers is for your dilemma.


----------



## Ss01

Yeswecan said:


> Understand you can not "fix" your W. Only your W can do this. I appears your W is satisfied with running and eating much of nothing. Marriage is just vehicle to stable home and place to live. I do not know what the answers is for your dilemma.


i have said something like that too, i can only support you I can't force/figure-out/etc how or what to help you change.
The answers are clear-cut and painful, but needs to happen.
My lawyer is reviewing my updated separation plan and i will present round2 tonight or tomorrow. if she still doesn't want to consider it, or keeps saying all of these 'ill do this, we never focused on this, i didn't have a chance' then the next letter comes from my lawyer


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> i have said something like that too, i can only support you I can't force/figure-out/etc how or what to help you change.
> The answers are clear-cut and painful, but needs to happen.
> My lawyer is reviewing my updated separation plan and i will present round2 tonight or tomorrow. if she still doesn't want to consider it, or keeps saying all of these 'ill do this, we never focused on this, i didn't have a chance' then the next letter comes from my lawyer


No dude, UNLESS she says something like the following and then proceeds to take action, then you file for divorce, NOT A SEPARATION PLAN. 

It would go like this, " I realize that this is my problem. I have neglected, deflected and abused you over the course of our marriage. I am sorry, give me a year to change everything, and then if you still want a divorce the i will make it as easy as possible." 

If she say that, then maybe, otherwise, forget the separation and file... and you know that she is not going to say that. 

For my money, I bet she is cheating, probably with a workout partner unless you guys work out together. I bet after the separation, golly gee she has a new boy friend out of the blue... wait and see.


----------



## BluesPower

By the way, Testosterone even for women affects their sex drive, and she is working out all the time. Seems like her drive should be high, but maybe not...


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> No dude, UNLESS she says something like the following and then proceeds to take action, then you file for divorce, NOT A SEPARATION PLAN.
> 
> It would go like this, " I realize that this is my problem. I have neglected, deflected and abused you over the course of our marriage. I am sorry, give me a year to change everything, and then if you still want a divorce the i will make it as easy as possible."
> 
> If she say that, then maybe, otherwise, forget the separation and file... and you know that she is not going to say that.
> 
> For my money, I bet she is cheating, probably with a workout partner unless you guys work out together. I bet after the separation, golly gee she has a new boy friend out of the blue... wait and see.


I would be shocked if she had a boyfriend! Could be.....
A statement like you say is never going to happen. I've heard alot from her friends, some from her, about how I need to take more ownership of the things I have done. I could ask better (i.e. "could you please goto the gym with me, it would really mean alot to me")
My lawyer had a different set of options. Its a separation/divorce document (thats what it says at the top of the document i wrong). Lawyer said, best case if you and her work out an agreement. If that doesn't look likely, then we goto a letter from him and a divorce filling direct to her. If we could work out an agreement - that could be smoother overall - i think. But the timeline on this is now days, not weeks


----------



## Yeswecan

Ss01 said:


> I would be shocked if she had a boyfriend!


There are a lot of shocked people on this site for the same reason. Some that have H and W that run with groups only to find the had affair partners running in the same group. Don't leave any stone un-turned.


----------



## Ss01

Yeswecan said:


> There are a lot of shocked people on this site for the same reason. Some that have H and W that run with groups only to find the had affair partners running in the same group. Don't leave any stone un-turned.


it could be! i doubt it though....but the characteristics do fit


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> it could be! i doubt it though....but the characteristics do fit


I have seen this several times. And yes the characteristics do fit. 

It really does not matter, she does not want to have sex with you, and whoever is getting it you don't know about yet. 

Maybe I am wrong, it does not make it better either way, you already have it bad enough...


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Yeswecan said:


> IMO...your W has exercised and eaten(nothing) her sex drive away to oblivion. It appears to be obsessive perhaps. Enough so your W will string you along with nonsense excuses to keep up the running and eating nothing.


It’s not the running.. this is who she is. Well, it’s who she is with HIM. If you re-read his OP, she made him jump through hoops from the very start of the relationship. She’s never been strongly attracted or driven with him. She needs to go, and none of this separation bullcrap. Just a clean break. 




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## Ss01

I think she is going to start packing items this weekend to move into the second house we own. It was up for sale .. so it will be taken off the market.

Man this was years in the making for me...countless decisions etc. She had been saying all kinds of things recently ... Like how she wants to have sex 2 or 3 times a week, needs to be more assertive, voice her feelings.... essentially everything I had asked for her to do for years. So why now??? Why after 2+ years of therapy and me asking many times ... Why now? She said she just wanted me to be more affectionate to her as well. 

I hope this isn't a bad choice...but I've thought about it over and over. I just want more from my marriage ... I don't think I have unreasonable asks...I'm not perfect and could do things better...but when you are literally saying to your wife "please, let me know what's going on... if you like something like a kiss or touch ... Tell me... anything" literally have said this many times 

Sucks all the way around. I hope my kids don't hate me


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## 3Xnocharm

It not a bad choice, it’s the right one. All those words are just her blowing smoke. Worthless. She has proven time and again who she is.. you need to believe her and stop getting sucked in. Congrats on making progress!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> I think she is going to start packing items this weekend to move into the second house we own. It was up for sale .. so it will be taken off the market.
> 
> Man this was years in the making for me...countless decisions etc. She had been saying all kinds of things recently ... Like how she wants to have sex 2 or 3 times a week, needs to be more assertive, voice her feelings.... essentially everything I had asked for her to do for years. So why now??? Why after 2+ years of therapy and me asking many times ... Why now? She said she just wanted me to be more affectionate to her as well.
> 
> I hope this isn't a bad choice...but I've thought about it over and over. I just want more from my marriage ... I don't think I have unreasonable asks...I'm not perfect and could do things better...but when you are literally saying to your wife "please, let me know what's going on... if you like something like a kiss or touch ... Tell me... anything" literally have said this many times
> 
> Sucks all the way around. I hope my kids don't hate me


Brother, would you please ****ing stop talking this way!!!! 

Just stop it. Look, you did every single thing you should have done. You were more than patient, you gave her a million chances. Frankly, if you did something wrong you were weak. Very weak about all of this. 

I hope you read "No more mr. nice guy", if not do it and read it about 10 times so maybe some of it will sink in. 

Look, one of about 3 things are happening and none of them are your fault. 

1) She I having an affair, and she could be, you really don't know. 
2) She has lost sexual attraction to you, or she never had any real attraction to you.
3) She is actually asexual or for some reason lost all of her libido... 

And look, with her lack of communication NONE OF THEM ARE YOUR FAULT. 

Please wake up and grow up. Please stop being such a doormat...


----------



## Openminded

Why now? Because she senses you’re not as controllable these days and she‘s trying to reel you back in.

Focus on what you should be doing to get your life together and not on her.


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## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> Brother, would you please ****ing stop talking this way!!!!
> 
> Just stop it. Look, you did every single thing you should have done. You were more than patient, you gave her a million chances. Frankly, if you did something wrong you were weak. Very weak about all of this.
> 
> I hope you read "No more mr. nice guy", if not do it and read it about 10 times so maybe some of it will sink in.
> 
> Look, one of about 3 things are happening and none of them are your fault.
> 
> 1) She I having an affair, and she could be, you really don't know.
> 2) She has lost sexual attraction to you, or she never had any real attraction to you.
> 3) She is actually asexual or for some reason lost all of her libido...
> 
> And look, with her lack of communication NONE OF THEM ARE YOUR FAULT.
> 
> Please wake up and grow up. Please stop being such a doormat...


I think it's 2 and 3 ... Maybe 1 she definitely has enough time on her hands for one as she works about 12 hours a week. She is a physical therapist with a master's degree so she can make a good living on her own. She has been working light since we had kids...I was happy to provide that, buy her new cars, trips, shoes ... It still is upsetting I wanted to have a long life with her but this sex/initmacy ... Mostly the intimacy of her harbouring thoughts or feelings and not sharing is just too much at this point....


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> Why now? Because she senses you’re not as controllable these days and she‘s trying to reel you back in.
> 
> Focus on what you should be doing to get your life together and not on her.


Yes, I has friend tell me that they would "say anything" essentially to keep me. So that may be part of what's going on. I still think she loves me...but it's a muted love ... Been that way for a while. Now that I've committed to changing things ... It's scary all the way around. For me too....I'm not too fearful of uncertainty but this is going to test my limits for sure


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## Openminded

Maybe she actually does love you. But for sure her version of love isn’t what you need. She’ll promise you all you ever wanted to keep you from divorcing her but the odds of that lasting are likely zero. Permanent change is too hard for most people to continue on with. 

Continue looking ahead to your new life.


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## Ss01

Openminded said:


> Maybe she actually does love you. But for sure her version of love isn’t what you need. She’ll promise you all you ever wanted to keep you from divorcing her but the odds of that lasting are likely zero. Permanent change is too hard for most people to continue on with.
> 
> Continue looking ahead to your new life.



I am sad about this....of course...I was talking to her the other day...
She said that "everyone sees how much she does for me"
I recognize that.... the house, the kids, dinners, how she can navigate around my work stress... I always say thank you for these things too. Maybe not always but certainly on a weekly basis. And I do alot for her, stability, home, trips, allowing her to be completely flexible with her time since she doesn't really have to work, trips, cars, etc. We both do alot for each other.
But I said to her... In the dark at night when no one around and these material things don't matter... I just wanted an "I love you" and some kissing/etc from her. Just a little bit a few times a year... She says relationships ebb and flow and adult relationships you have discussions. She says no one can live Up to my ideals ... Like I want someone doting on me 24/7 i do not! I just wanted to know, sometimes, that she would reach for me.. in the dark when nothing else mattered and it was just us. It's very sad for me....we have been together for over 20years....


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## Openminded

Like many people do, she gives you what she wants to be given herself and not what you want her to give. People who do that usually think they love their spouse more than anyone else possibly could. But they don’t love their spouse the way their spouse needs so their way doesn’t work. And then they’re shocked when divorce is mentioned because they don’t think their failings are that important.


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> Yes, I has friend tell me that they would "say anything" essentially to keep me. So that may be part of what's going on. I still think she loves me...but it's a muted love ... Been that way for a while. Now that I've committed to changing things ... It's scary all the way around. For me too....I'm not too fearful of uncertainty but this is going to test my limits for sure


No here you are still in denial about everything that has been going on. 

SHE DOES NOT LOVE YOU. If it would help I could copy and paste it a 1000 times for you. 

You are till hurting yourself by thinking this way. 

When this stay at home stuff is done you have got to get some therapy, a lot of therapy...


----------



## Ss01

I think it's alot more like this article









Knowing What Emotionally Unavailable *Really* Means Could Save You A Lot Of Drama


Look out for these 13 signs in a potential partner.




www.womenshealthmag.com





I see her act more openly with our kids but it doesn't quite translate to me. It never really did ... Even early on with the "I need to warm up to you, no touching rule, ok ok ok too much touching touch overload" these are things she would say. All the time. Now she hasnt said those in many years but I think the expression has changed. We did have "alot" more sex back then because I would always try and try. Almost on a nightly basis. Now that I want a more balanced (or even 80/20) sex life...it's fallen off and cliff and with it went the parts of the romantic connection I felt for her and resentment sets in.


----------



## Ss01

I've read a couple books...subtle art of not giving a **** and many other more serious relationship books. One of the themes was "don't be needy" stop putting the value of yourself to be dependent on the reaction of another. I took that to heart and tried to lessen my need for attachment or validation or to feel a sense of 'youre the one'. But I still want that....I don't think it's wrong... I'm not a nut job and I don't need someone praising my every step..god that would be annoying and I wouldn't believe it!! 

I still want someone to show that outward love to me...maybe she isn't the one to do that. 

She turns my questions around all the time basically saying "well you could do more of that too" on nearly every point. It's infuriating...but I keep that under control..pause..take a breath or two..and respond in a mostly calm (definitely not yelling) manner

It's seems the more I adopted this idea of "lessening my dependce" it allowed her to pull away and allowed me to gain even more belief that I don't need her to feel good..
So what the hell am I doing here providing this lifestyle...


----------



## BluesPower

You know, almost every single person has tried to tell you what is going on. 

And you dig deep, do research, and what ever else, to tell us, "No, it is not her, it is me, I have done something wrong. This wonderful women that does not love me, really does love me, and you guys are all wrong. 

No sir, I am sorry you are and have always been in denial. 

I don't know what to tell you. But maybe some hard truth may help. 

My Fiancé is 62 and I am 55. Now maybe you cannot understand but she is a hotty, and I mean super hot. For her age she is stunning. (Just saying but she actually has perfect tits. They do not sag, not too bid, NOT to small, just perfect.) 

I have banged her 3 times TODAY. NOT THIS Weekend, just today. I lost count this weekend. 

You see that is a sign of a woman that loves me, and loves to get ****ed by me. 

You don't understand what that is like because your wife does not love you, never has and never will. 

What will it take for you to wake up to what reality is. WHAT!!!!

Please wake up brother, there is so much more to life than what you think there is...


----------



## Casual Observer

BluesPower said:


> You know, almost every single person has tried to tell you what is going on.
> 
> And you dig deep, do research, and what ever else, to tell us, "No, it is not her, it is me, I have done something wrong. This wonderful women that does not love me, really does love me, and you guys are all wrong.
> 
> No sir, I am sorry you are and have always been in denial.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you. But maybe some hard truth may help.
> 
> My Fiancé is 62 and I am 55. Now maybe you cannot understand but she is a hotty, and I mean super hot. For her age she is stunning. (Just saying but she actually has perfect tits. They do not sag, not too bid, NOT to small, just perfect.)
> 
> I have banged her 3 times TODAY. NOT THIS Weekend, just today. I lost count this weekend.
> 
> *You see that is a sign of a woman that loves me, and loves to get ****ed by me.
> 
> You don't understand what that is like because your wife does not love you, never has and never will.*
> 
> What will it take for you to wake up to what reality is. WHAT!!!!
> 
> Please wake up brother, there is so much more to life than what you think there is...


Look, I totally get where you're coming from, having dealt with this stuff for 42 years. BUT I think it's a bit wrong to state that a wife who doesn't love to f**k doesn't love her husband. She may not love her husband in the way the husband needs to be loved, and she may be clueless about marriage being something where you have to look out for each other's needs and there's value in that, value that should make it special for you even if it means you're doing something that isn't something you'd do on your own or for yourself. But she may in fact "love" her husband very much. Sex is not the only way in which love shows itself.

I am not, in any way, shape or form, suggesting that a lack of sexual desire for ones partner isn't a potential and legitimate deal killer for marriage. But if we want to put our best case forward for solving lack of desire & participation, we shouldn't be telling someone that their problem is they don't love you. That's just not going to get anywhere with them.


----------



## BluesPower

Casual Observer said:


> Look, I totally get where you're coming from, having dealt with this stuff for 42 years. BUT I think it's a bit wrong to state that a wife who doesn't love to f**k doesn't love her husband. She may not love her husband in the way the husband needs to be loved, and she may be clueless about marriage being something where you have to look out for each other's needs and there's value in that, value that should make it special for you even if it means you're doing something that isn't something you'd do on your own or for yourself. But she may in fact "love" her husband very much. Sex is not the only way in which love shows itself.
> 
> I am not, in any way, shape or form, suggesting that a lack of sexual desire for ones partner isn't a potential and legitimate deal killer for marriage. But if we want to put our best case forward for solving lack of desire & participation, we shouldn't be telling someone that their problem is they don't love you. That's just not going to get anywhere with them.


And this reply is why you will stay in the sexless life that you have been living.

I know you cannot see it but everything you wrote here is wrong, and you refuse to see it.

God bless you, you are going to need it....

Oh, and PS... Telling you the truth does get you somewhere, with any sense it should get you to a divorce... Why be married to a woman that "loves" you like the dog or a brother... Good grief...


----------



## Ss01

I hear what they are saying.. I don't believe she doesn't love me so I'm disregarding that but I get how it could appear that way through a message post.

It's hard for me to hear I am not compassionate and i don't apologize.

I have read so many books, and therapy and couples therapy which were all my ideas. Asking how I can be a better partner, tell me what you feel or share your thoughts.... I can only do so much.....maybe I've done way too much.


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> And this reply is why you will stay in the sexless life that you have been living.
> 
> I know you cannot see it but everything you wrote here is wrong, and you refuse to see it.
> 
> God bless you, you are going to need it....
> 
> Oh, and PS... Telling you the truth does get you somewhere, with any sense it should get you to a divorce... Why be married to a woman that "loves" you like the dog or a brother... Good grief...



A woman that loves me.... I may know one....so there is that too....


----------



## Ss01

Ss01 said:


> A woman that loves me.... I may know one....so there is that too....


I am moving ahead with the divorce...emailed my lawyer yesterday as I don't want to be on the defensive... 
It still hurts me terribly...but I cannot do years more like this. Maybe someone else will be the right person for her? Or maybe she has some deeper issues that she will never address.... It's not for me to spend my life trying to crack


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Ss01 said:


> I
> 
> I have read so many books, and therapy and couples therapy which were all my ideas. Asking how I can be a better partner, tell me what you feel or share your thoughts.... I can only do so much.....maybe I've done way too much.


No, what you’ve done is set yourself up to be a good partner when you find the right person. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## WandaJ

BluesPower said:


> You know, almost every single person has tried to tell you what is going on.
> 
> And you dig deep, do research, and what ever else, to tell us, "No, it is not her, it is me, I have done something wrong. This wonderful women that does not love me, really does love me, and you guys are all wrong.
> 
> No sir, I am sorry you are and have always been in denial.
> 
> I don't know what to tell you. But maybe some hard truth may help.
> 
> My Fiancé is 62 and I am 55. Now maybe you cannot understand but she is a hotty, and I mean super hot. For her age she is stunning. (Just saying but she actually has perfect tits. They do not sag, not too bid, NOT to small, just perfect.)
> 
> I have banged her 3 times TODAY. NOT THIS Weekend, just today. I lost count this weekend.
> 
> You see that is a sign of a woman that loves me, and loves to get ****ed by me.
> 
> You don't understand what that is like because your wife does not love you, never has and never will.
> 
> What will it take for you to wake up to what reality is. WHAT!!!!
> 
> Please wake up brother, there is so much more to life than what you think there is...


well,how long have you been together?


----------



## BluesPower

WandaJ said:


> well,how long have you been together?


This "issue" or the thread itself, started 4 years ago. I cannot remember how long this has been going on... at least 4 years. Probably much longer... But 4 years is 4 years too long...

Maybe OP can actually respond to some of the posters with this answer...


----------



## WandaJ

BluesPower said:


> This "issue" or the thread itself, started 4 years ago. I cannot remember how long this has been going on... at least 4 years. Probably much longer... But 4 years is 4 years too long...
> 
> Maybe OP can actually respond to some of the posters with this answer...


I mean how long you and your finance been together?


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> This "issue" or the thread itself, started 4 years ago. I cannot remember how long this has been going on... at least 4 years. Probably much longer... But 4 years is 4 years too long...
> 
> Maybe OP can actually respond to some of the posters with this answer...


I think WandaJ may have been asking you how long you and your fiance were together?

My wife and I have been married 21 years....most of my real trouble started about 8 years ago. Hence I was leaning on a female friend around 2015 for some emotional support.
Last 4 years have really been on/off with intimacy/sex ... short "bursts" and then slide back again ... 

She told her parents this weekend....I asked what they said. Her parents (who are very much like her in disposition) said "Oh, that is too bad. You can move here if you need". I asked, did they wonder why/what, ask about the kids, or money, or maybe any of the 100 other questions I'd have. She said No. 
Ticks me off too.... I paid for a housekeeper for her parents home for about 9 years. Her mom was having some mobility trouble (which she still does). I never got a thank you, well one time I did. I didn't hire the service for a thank-you/pat-on-the-back ... but it would be nice to hear that its appreciated rather than just some other obligation that Steve has to maintain....


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> She told her parents this weekend....I asked what they said. Her parents (who are very much like her in disposition) said "Oh, that is too bad. You can move here if you need". I asked, did they wonder why/what, ask about the kids, or money, or maybe any of the 100 other questions I'd have. She said No.
> Ticks me off too.... I paid for a housekeeper for her parents home for about 9 years. Her mom was having some mobility trouble (which she still does). I never got a thank you, well one time I did. I didn't hire the service for a thank-you/pat-on-the-back ... but it would be nice to hear that its appreciated rather than just some other obligation that Steve has to maintain....


Do you realize what her parents attitude and actions (no thank you for the maid?????) should have already told you about your wife??? 

Their view/reaction tells you all you need to know about your wife. And all the reasons that you should divorce her and move on? Can you guess what that is?


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> Do you realize what her parents attitude and actions (no thank you for the maid?????) should have already told you about your wife???
> 
> Their view/reaction tells you all you need to know about your wife. And all the reasons that you should divorce her and move on? Can you guess what that is?


Yes, I can guess what it might be 
I always knew her mom was a little passive-aggressive. Her dad is very quiet and reserved. Even my kids ask home come when he gets annoyed, the biggest reaction he has is a long sigh/exhale. I'm a little more vocal when I'm annoyed  She is alot like her Dad, perhaps its gotten more "severe" over time ?


----------



## Ss01

Ss01 said:


> Yes, I can guess what it might be
> I always knew her mom was a little passive-aggressive. Her dad is very quiet and reserved. Even my kids ask home come when he gets annoyed, the biggest reaction he has is a long sigh/exhale. I'm a little more vocal when I'm annoyed  She is alot like her Dad, perhaps its gotten more "severe" over time ?


they thanked me once , maybe twice in ~9 years ... i didn't do it for a thank you ... but still .... its kind an luxury item to a degree....


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> they thanked me once , maybe twice in ~9 years ... i didn't do it for a thank you ... but still .... its kind an luxury item to a degree....


It is not that you did anything for a thank you but it is the principal of the matter. Also, most well adjusted adults when they are treated like this buy someone (her parents) they stop doing things for them. Kind of like with your wife, You should have already divorced her... This is the nice guy syndrome again, I hope you read that book???? 

See, it is ok to be nice, but when people treat you like ****, you remove them from your life, see how that works?

No man, sounds like dominate narcissistic mother and passive dishrag father, and people that think "Of course you should get us a maid, you are our daughter work horse aren't you?"


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> It is not that you did anything for a thank you but it is the principal of the matter. Also, most well adjusted adults when they are treated like this buy someone (her parents) they stop doing things for them. Kind of like with your wife, You should have already divorced her... This is the nice guy syndrome again, I hope you read that book????
> 
> See, it is ok to be nice, but when people treat you like ****, you remove them from your life, see how that works?
> 
> No man, sounds like dominate narcissistic mother and passive dishrag father, and people that think "Of course you should get us a maid, you are our daughter work horse aren't you?"


I don't think i actually read the "nice guy" book. I remember seeing the title, maybe I steered away from it subconciously ... 
Its a balance too, but surely I can't make the argument that sustained intimacy/etc issues over multiple years, combined with therapy, should be allowed to continue. So that is the past.

I did remember the other day, maybe about 5 years into my marriage....the "no touching rule" and how should would statically stick herself to the side of the bed where I can to pull her over onto her side, other things too....it was getting a little old after 5 years ..... so I do remember having a flash of "should we split up before we have kids/etc" ? I love my kids so glad that did not happen there...but the thought did flicker in my head maybe 15 years ago...


----------



## WandaJ

Isn't it amazing realizing now, after 20 years all the small red flags, we should have seen and act on? But at that time it is not so easy


----------



## Ss01

WandaJ said:


> Isn't it amazing realizing now, after 20 years all the small red flags, we should have seen and act on? But at that time it is not so easy


yes, its easier to see them after a long process of decisions and trial-and-error. but in the moment, I don't want to be rash/etc. people have bad days (maybe bad years??) 
plus she is pretty - so i didn't want to rock the boat too much! earlier on, when we met, i had a large inferiority complex (due to my upbringing/school experience/etc). so there was no way i was going to break up with a pretty girl who would still have sex with me. i'm in a different place now for a variety of reasons... but even through that ... i tried to be very aware of "is this my ego talking?? really??" i think we both need better matches in the future....


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> I don't think i actually read the "nice guy" book. I remember seeing the title, maybe I steered away from it subconciously ...
> Its a balance too, but surely I can't make the argument that sustained intimacy/etc issues over multiple years, combined with therapy, should be allowed to continue. So that is the past.
> 
> I did remember the other day, maybe about 5 years into my marriage....the "no touching rule" and how should would statically stick herself to the side of the bed where I can to pull her over onto her side, other things too....it was getting a little old after 5 years ..... so I do remember having a flash of "should we split up before we have kids/etc" ? I love my kids so glad that did not happen there...but the thought did flicker in my head maybe 15 years ago...


Good grief I wish you had been a little smarter. You could have had kids with a woman that actually loved you and you might not have had to get divorced. 

You see how obvious the red flags are now, don't you?????? 

Don't ever, ever, ever put up with anything like this again....


----------



## WandaJ

BluesPower said:


> Good grief I wish you had been a little smarter. You could have had kids with a woman that actually loved you and you might not have had to get divorced.
> 
> You see how obvious the red flags are now, don't you??????
> 
> Don't ever, ever, ever put up with anything like this again....


Lol, most of us are here because we missed our pretty obvious red flags....


----------



## Ss01

WandaJ said:


> Lol, most of us are here because we missed our pretty obvious red flags....


maybe like the frog in hot water example? slowly raising the temperature and the frog doesn't notice? it would never jump into a boiling pot though - or it would jump right out ...


----------



## WandaJ

Ss01 said:


> maybe like the frog in hot water example? slowly raising the temperature and the frog doesn't notice? it would never jump into a boiling pot though - or it would jump right out ...


That's pretty good comparison.....


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> maybe like the frog in hot water example? slowly raising the temperature and the frog doesn't notice? it would never jump into a boiling pot though - or it would jump right out ...


Now you are getting, you are learning. Yes it is that. That is why you have to learn, and understand from the start what is OK in a relationship and what is not.

Example, with my F, early on. She had an orbiter. She really is kind of naïve so she did not understand for the most part what was going on. But, you know she is not stupid.

After we committed to one another I told her 1) as of today, this person has to go. 2) I don't allow orbiters around my relationships.

She had sense enough to understand that I don't play about these things. I have not had one problem with anything like that and don't expect I will.

But I am older than you I think. It takes a while to learn about some of this stuff.

For example, in your next relationship, if something like the above happen you now know to put a stop to that immediately or end the relationship. In the long run, it really is that simple.

In you spare time you should think of other red flags you missed and store them in your "No ********" memory bank for future use...


----------



## Casual Observer

Casual Observer said:


> Look, I totally get where you're coming from, having dealt with this stuff for 42 years. BUT I think it's a bit wrong to state that a wife who doesn't love to f**k doesn't love her husband. She may not love her husband in the way the husband needs to be loved, and she may be clueless about marriage being something where you have to look out for each other's needs and there's value in that, value that should make it special for you even if it means you're doing something that isn't something you'd do on your own or for yourself. But she may in fact "love" her husband very much. Sex is not the only way in which love shows itself.
> 
> I am not, in any way, shape or form, suggesting that a lack of sexual desire for ones partner isn't a potential and legitimate deal killer for marriage. But if we want to put our best case forward for solving lack of desire & participation, we shouldn't be telling someone that their problem is they don't love you. That's just not going to get anywhere with them.





BluesPower said:


> And this reply is why you will stay in the sexless life that you have been living.
> 
> I know you cannot see it but everything you wrote here is wrong, and you refuse to see it.
> 
> God bless you, you are going to need it....
> 
> Oh, and PS... Telling you the truth does get you somewhere, with any sense it should get you to a divorce... Why be married to a woman that "loves" you like the dog or a brother... Good grief...


I never made the argument you should be married to a woman you loves you like a dog or brother. What I said, or meant to say, is that your partner WILL NOT CHANGE if there is no common point of reference. He or she will believe they are correct, that they "love" you, that sex is not the only component of love, if you let them. You cannot phrase your argument in a way you understand, and they do not. 

The only thing you can do is explain that, what "love" means TO YOU (yourself) is what matters here. They can define it any way they wish. If they want to say "but that's just sex" then fine, at least you're both on the same page. "Love" is an easy way for the other party to deflect.

If you've given up, then sure, there's no point in continuing to engage. Just. Leave. Now. For me, I haven't given up. There is reason for hope. Our MC understands that lack of sex, more than that, lack of her understanding the meaning of sex TO ME, is a deal killer. And my TAM standards, I have never been starved for sex. By my standards, I have been starved for enthusiasm and caring for something very important to me. I have put my foot down for "minimums" that apparently are far above the norm. Who cares about norms. This is about me. This is about our relationship. This is not just about her. 

So tell me more about my "sexless life." What have I said that puts me into that category? How do you define it?


----------



## BluesPower

Casual Observer said:


> I never made the argument you should be married to a woman you loves you like a dog or brother. What I said, or meant to say, is that your partner WILL NOT CHANGE if there is no common point of reference. He or she will believe they are correct, that they "love" you, that sex is not the only component of love, if you let them. You cannot phrase your argument in a way you understand, and they do not.
> 
> The only thing you can do is explain that, what "love" means TO YOU (yourself) is what matters here. They can define it any way they wish. If they want to say "but that's just sex" then fine, at least you're both on the same page. "Love" is an easy way for the other party to deflect.
> 
> If you've given up, then sure, there's no point in continuing to engage. Just. Leave. Now. For me, I haven't given up. There is reason for hope. Our MC understands that lack of sex, more than that, lack of her understanding the meaning of sex TO ME, is a deal killer. And my TAM standards, I have never been starved for sex. By my standards, I have been starved for enthusiasm and caring for something very important to me. I have put my foot down for "minimums" that apparently are far above the norm. Who cares about norms. This is about me. This is about our relationship. This is not just about her.
> 
> So tell me more about my "sexless life." What have I said that puts me into that category? How do you define it?


I don't know if you are asking me, or OP on this. You can PM me, and we can discuss it. 

But I don't know what your standards are or really if OP even has any. I suspect mine are a little different. 

But the tone of your post tell me that you are kind of in the same boat as OP, or close.


----------



## Casual Observer

BluesPower said:


> I don't know if you are asking me, or OP on this. You can PM me, and we can discuss it.
> 
> But I don't know what your standards are or really if OP even has any. I suspect mine are a little different.
> 
> But the tone of your post tell me that you are kind of in the same boat as OP, or close.


I am busting my butt trying to get out from under exactly where OP, and many others, are. It's not easy. Especially if you've let things sit and rot for as long as I have. I can only blame myself for that. But Thank God (and I do mean God with a capital G) there is some hope; my wife knows she's messed up and in heavy duty EMDR sessions that are getting to the root of her issues. It took A FULL YEAR of her spinning her wheels, being defensive, deflecting everything coming her way, until push came to shove and she's gradually beginning to get past shame and understand what she's done to our relationship, how it's time to address something from 42 years ago, how just because something happened in the way back days doesn't mean you get rewarded because so much time passed and I am finally seeing things as they are now.

If any of that makes sense. We've still got a long way to go but she's past the "why are you doing this to me" stage and beginning to become more analytical and reflective. Those are not traits that come naturally to her. I am actually quite proud of her, that she finally seems to have opened up to her EMDR therapist, thanks largely to the therapist not letting anything slide.


----------



## Ss01

Apparently I am an embarrassment as well I found out tonight.
About 9 years ago, we were at a birthday party of one of her friends. Outside bonfire. I vaguely remember not having anyone to talk to and being cold...so I went to the car for 10 or 15mins to warm up... Apparently that was highly embarrassing.

Literally 17 years ago, we were going to meet friends at a bar. I was stuck at work under extreme pressure... thought I was going to be sued. I was working late and she went to meet friends...i then said **** this... quickly changed and went to meet them. I was about 30mins late.

Wow.... I am speechless


----------



## Casual Observer

Ss01 said:


> Apparently I am an embarrassment as well I found out tonight.
> About 9 years ago, we were at a birthday party of one of her friends. Outside bonfire. I vaguely remember not having anyone to talk to and being cold...so I went to the car for 10 or 15mins to warm up... Apparently that was highly embarrassing.
> 
> Literally 17 years ago, we were going to meet friends at a bar. I was stuck at work under extreme pressure... thought I was going to be sued. I was working late and she went to meet friends...i then said **** this... quickly changed and went to meet them. I was about 30mins late.
> 
> Wow.... I am speechless


People seize on strange things when they're grasping at straws, trying to justify what they've done. It's tempting to give those things more importance than they actually have/had, but the reality is that they are not the straw that broke the camel's back. Instead they're an indication of how absurd that person's position is. To them, it actually makes sense. But it blatantly fails the 3rd party test. If they said those things to someone else, as example of how embarrassing it's been to be around you, that person, friend of foe, would be thinking... wft? 

Anyway, I don't have to read anything else you've written to know you have the moral high ground here.


----------



## WandaJ

Wow, that’ pretty bad.


----------



## Ss01

Ss01 said:


> Apparently I am an embarrassment as well I found out tonight.
> About 9 years ago, we were at a birthday party of one of her friends. Outside bonfire. I vaguely remember not having anyone to talk to and being cold...so I went to the car for 10 or 15mins to warm up... Apparently that was highly embarrassing.
> 
> Literally 17 years ago, we were going to meet friends at a bar. I was stuck at work under extreme pressure... thought I was going to be sued. I was working late and she went to meet friends...i then said **** this... quickly changed and went to meet them. I was about 30mins late.
> 
> Wow.... I am speechless





WandaJ said:


> Wow, that’ pretty bad.


I guess she had to go back 9 years... I was going back to November 2019 and wondering why she was distant again.... I feel like an idiot


----------



## BluesPower

Casual Observer said:


> I am busting my butt trying to get out from under exactly where OP, and many others, are. It's not easy. Especially if you've let things sit and rot for as long as I have. I can only blame myself for that. But Thank God (and I do mean God with a capital G) there is some hope; my wife knows she's messed up and in heavy duty EMDR sessions that are getting to the root of her issues. It took A FULL YEAR of her spinning her wheels, being defensive, deflecting everything coming her way, until push came to shove and she's gradually beginning to get past shame and understand what she's done to our relationship, how it's time to address something from 42 years ago, how just because something happened in the way back days doesn't mean you get rewarded because so much time passed and I am finally seeing things as they are now.
> 
> If any of that makes sense. We've still got a long way to go but she's past the "why are you doing this to me" stage and beginning to become more analytical and reflective. Those are not traits that come naturally to her. I am actually quite proud of her, that she finally seems to have opened up to her EMDR therapist, thanks largely to the therapist not letting anything slide.





Ss01 said:


> Apparently I am an embarrassment as well I found out tonight.
> About 9 years ago, we were at a birthday party of one of her friends. Outside bonfire. I vaguely remember not having anyone to talk to and being cold...so I went to the car for 10 or 15mins to warm up... Apparently that was highly embarrassing.
> 
> Literally 17 years ago, we were going to meet friends at a bar. I was stuck at work under extreme pressure... thought I was going to be sued. I was working late and she went to meet friends...i then said **** this... quickly changed and went to meet them. I was about 30mins late.
> 
> Wow.... I am speechless


Look guys here is the issue. None of you seem to want the truth, the truth that I live by, so to speak.

You all want to say that, "Yes they do love me, they just have issues. They really deep down want to have sex with me they are just repressed from CSA, or what the **** ever....

So both of you put the same type of story out there and yet neither of you seem, maybe i am wrong, to be able to see the ******** on the wall.

Women, that have stories where you messed up 20 years ago, are digging for various way to justify their lack of desire for their husbands. They know it is wrong, just like they know cheating is wrong, but they cannot own their **** and for the most part they never will.

To make matters worse, they seem to marry "nice guy" husbands that put up with this crap.

And guys, i am not saying any of this to be mean. While I have never had the sexless issues i have been stupid with woman many, many times in my life. Now if I was not so stupid I would have recognize the I needed to get of of the relationship/marriage YEARS before I did, i just thought that if the sex was good, the rest would work out. Not true, it can help but it does not cover up everything.

So I hope both of you either work it out to a better than average sex life and you are truly happy, or you get a divorce...


----------



## Ss01

Casual Observer said:


> People seize on strange things when they're grasping at straws, trying to justify what they've done. It's tempting to give those things more importance than they actually have/had, but the reality is that they are not the straw that broke the camel's back. Instead they're an indication of how absurd that person's position is. To them, it actually makes sense. But it blatantly fails the 3rd party test. If they said those things to someone else, as example of how embarrassing it's been to be around you, that person, friend of foe, would be thinking... wft?
> 
> Anyway, I don't have to read anything else you've written to know you have the moral high ground here.





Ss01 said:


> Apparently I am an embarrassment as well I found out tonight.
> About 9 years ago, we were at a birthday party of one of her friends. Outside bonfire. I vaguely remember not having anyone to talk to and being cold...so I went to the car for 10 or 15mins to warm up... Apparently that was highly embarrassing.
> 
> Literally 17 years ago, we were going to meet friends at a bar. I was stuck at work under extreme pressure... thought I was going to be sued. I was working late and she went to meet friends...i then said **** this... quickly changed and went to meet them. I was about 30mins late.
> 
> Wow.... I am speechless





BluesPower said:


> Look guys here is the issue. None of you seem to want the truth, the truth that I live by, so to speak.
> 
> You all want to say that, "Yes they do love me, they just have issues. They really deep down want to have sex with me they are just repressed from CSA, or what the **** ever....
> 
> So both of you put the same type of story out there and yet neither of you seem, maybe i am wrong, to be able to see the ******** on the wall.
> 
> Women, that have stories where you messed up 20 years ago, are digging for various way to justify their lack of desire for their husbands. They know it is wrong, just like they know cheating is wrong, but they cannot own their **** and for the most part they never will.
> 
> To make matters worse, they seem to marry "nice guy" husbands that put up with this crap.
> 
> And guys, i am not saying any of this to be mean. While I have never had the sexless issues i have been stupid with woman many, many times in my life. Now if I was not so stupid I would have recognize the I needed to get of of the relationship/marriage YEARS before I did, i just thought that if the sex was good, the rest would work out. Not true, it can help but it does not cover up everything.
> 
> So I hope both of you either work it out to a better than average sex life and you are truly happy, or you get a divorce...



She was engaged before I met her and that was broken off. Her mother told me early on "she is tough, you're going to have to work" 

Ha ha ha, she is cute and funny, I love her .. I'll make her happy it won't be work!

I thought about this last week and said to myself, hell that was over 20 years ago...come on. She brought that up last night! Remember my mom said you'd have to work! Wow.... I think I have....

She spent the night at the other house. Some furniture is arriving later this week. I bought a new TV for down there...

Also now in circulation....a friend of mine... actually a friend of ours. She apparently is leaving her husband as of January 2020. We have known her and her husband for 5 or 6 years. Done a few double dates or parties etc. Her husband is alot like Jen. If I had to write (and I have) all of the characteristics that I was looking for... I think she has them all... She even owns her own business as well and makes a very good living.

One thing at a time....but that does make me wonder...could it be right here all along? The timing is very odd....


----------



## Casual Observer

BluesPower said:


> Look guys here is the issue. None of you seem to want the truth, the truth that I live by, so to speak.
> 
> You all want to say that, "Yes they do love me, they just have issues. They really deep down want to have sex with me they are just repressed from CSA, or what the **** ever....
> 
> So both of you put the same type of story out there and yet neither of you seem, maybe i am wrong, to be able to see the ******** on the wall.
> 
> Women, that have stories where you messed up 20 years ago, are digging for various way to justify their lack of desire for their husbands. They know it is wrong, just like they know cheating is wrong, but they cannot own their **** and for the most part they never will.
> 
> To make matters worse, they seem to marry "nice guy" husbands that put up with this crap.
> 
> And guys, i am not saying any of this to be mean. While I have never had the sexless issues i have been stupid with woman many, many times in my life. Now if I was not so stupid I would have recognize the I needed to get of of the relationship/marriage YEARS before I did, i just thought that if the sex was good, the rest would work out. Not true, it can help but it does not cover up everything.
> 
> So I hope both of you either work it out to a better than average sex life and you are truly happy, or you get a divorce...


Just to be clear, what happened 42 years ago... that wasn't me messing up. This was totally, 100%, on her. It has taken a very, very, very long time for her to own up to her own responsibility, which she finally is. Up until now it's either been my fault or shared. She still resists taken it 100% upon herself, but that's only because she doesn't want to feel so bad. Admitting that has been a very big thing. And again, despite her best efforts, she was never able to turn the sex spigot off. In the back of my mind, hell no, it's always been at the front, I've known that's potentially a one-way valve. That there has been some benefit to keeping it known to her there is a tension that cannot be ignored.


----------



## Ss01

Casual Observer said:


> Just to be clear, what happened 42 years ago... that wasn't me messing up. This was totally, 100%, on her. It has taken a very, very, very long time for her to own up to her own responsibility, which she finally is. Up until now it's either been my fault or shared. She still resists taken it 100% upon herself, but that's only because she doesn't want to feel so bad. Admitting that has been a very big thing. And again, despite her best efforts, she was never able to turn the sex spigot off. In the back of my mind, hell no, it's always been at the front, I've known that's potentially a one-way valve. That there has been some benefit to keeping it known to her there is a tension that cannot be ignored.



It's a hard situation all the way around. 42yrs sounds long ... I'm not sure I could make it to 24yr years let alone out to 42...


----------



## BluesPower

Casual Observer said:


> Just to be clear, what happened 42 years ago... that wasn't me messing up. This was totally, 100%, on her. It has taken a very, very, very long time for her to own up to her own responsibility, which she finally is. Up until now it's either been my fault or shared. She still resists taken it 100% upon herself, but that's only because she doesn't want to feel so bad. Admitting that has been a very big thing. And again, despite her best efforts, she was never able to turn the sex spigot off. In the back of my mind, hell no, it's always been at the front, I've known that's potentially a one-way valve. That there has been some benefit to keeping it known to her there is a tension that cannot be ignored.


That is exactly the point, she is making up ******** to NOT HAVE SEX WITH YOU... OP Same thing. 

Why do you think that is. It is because she likes the life you provide, and even though she really does not love you and is not attracted to you, she LIKES THE LIFE YOU PROVIDE...

She cannot admit that she has treated you like ****. You know she has, but she will NEVER ADMIT IT AND FIX IT.

Just like OP, you like so many others want to make excuses for their wives... Even if you don't want to, you find yourself doing it. 

And I am sorry brother, has the sex changed at all, in any way in the last year, 2 years, 5 years???? 

I bet the improvement is miniscule if at all. There has been no benefit to keeping in the for front for you. There would have been benefit for you to get a divorce or ask and act on an open marriage if you could even go that way. 

Like I just said, I have been stupid about a lot of other things, just not about sex. I always figured that is sex was not happening then the relationship was over.


----------



## SunCMars

[QUOTE="Ss01, post: 20119522, member: 34326. She is a runner and is in good shape! She usually doesn't go-to the gym. I usually don't run. I've trained with her to run some 5ks while she has run the 15k or 20k portion of the same race. I even flew us to Antigua for 4 days for the "run in paradise".
[/QUOTE]

I have been a long distance runner my whole and long life.
Running is hard and painful. It takes a lot of willpower to keep at it...day after day.

This wife of yours has plenty of will power and endurance.
Plenty.

She is fit.

She knows about endorphins, those feel *good chemicals.
Love making also feels good.

I cannot believe she is non-sexual.
I cannot.

I suspect she takes care of her own needs in private (masturbates).

Or, she feels any love making with you is one-sided.
You get off, she does not.

Many women cannot get an 'O' from PIV alone
So I can understand her not 'wanting' to bother with it.
Yet, you have tried other things to get her in the mood. All, for moot.

She knows you are suffering mightily from the lack of intimacy.
She does not care!

*Could she be on-the-spectrum?
With her having a high functioning autistic personality?*

.........................................................

I need to say this, as no one else has?

Are there any red flags, could she have a long term boyfriend?
A man-friend who is also a runner?

One thing, this for sure, while running you would not believe what *comes to mind.
All those miles....

When running, your legs mostly concentrate on the path, but your mind runs to pleasant places.
If she runs with men, those other hairy legs likely take hold of her mind and maybe her dreams.

.................................................................................


----------



## Ss01

SunCMars said:


> [QUOTE="Ss01, post: 20119522, member: 34326. She is a runner and is in good shape! She usually doesn't go-to the gym. I usually don't run. I've trained with her to run some 5ks while she has run the 15k or 20k portion of the same race. I even flew us to Antigua for 4 days for the "run in paradise".


I have been a long distance runner my whole and long life.
Running is hard and painful. It takes a lot of willpower to keep at it...day after day.

This wife of yours has plenty of will power and endurance.
Plenty.

She is fit.

She knows about endorphins, those feel *good chemicals.
Love making also feels good.

I cannot believe she is non-sexual.
I cannot.

I suspect she takes care of her own needs in private (masturbates).

Or, she feels any love making with you is one-sided.
You get off, she does not.

Many women cannot get an 'O' from PIV alone
So I can understand her not 'wanting' to bother with it.
Yet, you have tried other things to get her in the mood. All, for moot.

She knows you are suffering mightily from the lack of intimacy.
She does not care!

*Could she be on-the-spectrum?
With her having a high functioning autistic personality?*

.........................................................

I need to say this, as no one else has?

Are there any red flags, could she have a long term boyfriend?
A man-friend who is also a runner?

One thing, this for sure, while running you would not believe what *comes to mind.
All those miles....

When running, your legs mostly concentrate on the path, but your mind runs to pleasant places.
If she runs with men, those other hairy legs likely take hold of her mind and maybe her dreams.

.................................................................................
[/QUOTE]

She runs by herself or with a girlfriend...I see them together when they head out sometimes. Perhaps she is meeting a runner on a trail...but I doubt that.

I usually try to make sure she has a good time when we are intimate. Im fairly certain she does as I have been keeping that in mind alot. Plus it's quite a turn on to me to see her having a good time. I don't get it...she definitely had a good time in November!

She has said she likes long runs as it gives her time to think


----------



## Ss01

The other thing here...she was at the house with me and the kids for a little bit between 5pm and 7pm.

So we went for a ride for takeout to get dinner.

On the ride, I had asked her more about the embarrassing remark. She said I focus too much on negativity most of the time.

She said I don't respect her interests.

For example, her parents 50th anniversary. I was late picking her and the kids up. We made it to the anniversary before most of everyone else and before her parents. She said that I'm not even remorseful and I tell her it's because I was leaving work or was tied up at work and was late.

She said on thanksgiving 2 years ago, I yelled at my daughter after dinner. Daughter was being brat, swearing about school stuff, so yes I told her to knock it off or shut up. That did stop everyone in their tracks and her parents were surprised and she thoughy i was out of line. I said, do we have to be cursing on thanksgiving about these school friends or drama? I then went to another room in the house to remove myself from the situation and not argue. She said tonight I was out of line and made a scene at her parents house. We did talk about it on the way home that night...she said we can't even go to Thanksgiving without a problem.

She says I focus on the negative because it's a good way to spin a humorous story. For example, I took us all to Grand Bahama last year. 5 days. The outbound flight sucked...up at 3am and I was wiped out for almost a day down there. So yes, I've recounted that story with, even as she says, humor spin but all I do is focus on the negative. I enjoyed the vacation and work was at lull so it was a great get away for me. Despite the 10k plus sticker tag (see there is my negativity?!)

I was actually telling a friend of mine about grand Bahama. The ocean was amazing, it looked as blue as Windex to the horizon...

She says that she feels that work is always a higher priority than her. She said she still feels that way, even though over the last 6 years I've dramatically slashed my hours at work. I used to work 55+ ... I barely work 30hrs a week now and the business is even more successful. Ive has some peak stuff going on over the last few months so I've had a few late nights (8pm) across the last 3 to 4 months.

Maybe I am a negative person?? I can't believe that... It's also sad for me that I don't get a backup from my wife when,the rare occasion, that I yell at my kids when they are stepping over the line.


----------



## Ss01

I tried to get out of my business twice over the last 10 years....just too much work and I wanted to exit.

I had an opportunity to take a different job (CTO at a tech company) which would have required us to move. That was a no go because of the kids and their school and their friends.

Prior to that...around 2010 ... I wanted out badly. I asked if we could both get jobs, might have to restructure some bills...it could be rough...but I literally hated going to work at the business I had started. She said no, I wouldn't be happy working a job and this problems would pass etc.

I really did want out...it was too much work, stress, and I didn't care about the money...I just hated it and I couldn't believe you could hate going to company that you founded...but that's a thing!

So I am upset... I wanted out but I don't think I ever had solid backing to do it. Then the amount of work I do will get used against me on some occasions.


----------



## Casual Observer

BluesPower said:


> That is exactly the point, she is making up ******** to NOT HAVE SEX WITH YOU... OP Same thing.
> 
> Why do you think that is. It is because she likes the life you provide, and even though she really does not love you and is not attracted to you, she LIKES THE LIFE YOU PROVIDE...
> 
> She cannot admit that she has treated you like ****. You know she has, but she will NEVER ADMIT IT AND FIX IT.
> 
> Just like OP, you like so many others want to make excuses for their wives... Even if you don't want to, you find yourself doing it.
> 
> And I am sorry brother, has the sex changed at all, in any way in the last year, 2 years, 5 years????
> 
> I bet the improvement is miniscule if at all. There has been no benefit to keeping in the for front for you. There would have been benefit for you to get a divorce or ask and act on an open marriage if you could even go that way.
> 
> Like I just said, I have been stupid about a lot of other things, just not about sex. I always figured that is sex was not happening then the relationship was over.


She is going through an extremely painful process that involves owning up to some really bad decisions she made when we met, things she mislead and lied about and is finally owning up to. She knows the things she's said and done over the years; she just never realized, until lately, how much it mattered. She's gone through more than a year of crying at least every other night about this, thinking, hoping, that if she pleaded enough, trying to convince me the past is the past, why does it matter now, I'd eventually agree and let things continue as they have.

She had no idea whatsoever that I would be as resolute as I have been. She had no idea that she'd finally meet a therapist or two that wouldn't let her BS her way through and just hand out happy pills to minimize depression. She had no idea that I would actually want her to have to relive experiences she had put out of her mind.

Do not make the same mistake she did. That the fact that it went on for so long meant that it would continue. I had an epiphany, a moment when enough was enough, and made it clear I was willing to risk everything. Actually made it clear that I really had nothing to risk... all the risk was on her side. I took away her power by giving her the choice. That's a strange concept. But it's true. She has all the power and yet no power at all. She is choosing to go all-in and see this through. IC, MC, EMDR and probably hypnosis in the future. 

I think, had I ever slacked off too much in the minimum I'd allow for physical intimacy, things might be very different now. I might have settled in. I might have felt like it was my fault partly, not hers entirely. She never got that satisfaction though. On the other hand, looking back, does that really change that much? I was still "played" in that she would provide whatever absolute minimum was required so I wouldn't leave. All I did was make sure that requirement wasn't too low; she still maintained control.

A bit of a ramble, but I'll finish with one thing. What scared her most, a couple weeks ago, when it seemed like she was thinking about backtracking a bit? I told her there would be no sex until I felt comfortable that she was fully committed to fixing her issues, and understanding they were her issues, not mine. She had lost her power over me. You could almost see the color drain from her face.


----------



## SunCMars

From what you have written, I cannot see where you have done anything wrong..... or out of the ordinary.

Sometimes the simplest is the best answer.
You two are not compatible, and never were.

We look for some complicated solution to a most basic problem plaguing humanity.
We are all different, sometimes irreparably so.


----------



## Ss01

SunCMars said:


> From what you have written, I cannot see where you have done anything wrong..... or out of the ordinary.
> 
> Sometimes the simplest is the best answer.
> You two are not compatible, and never were.
> 
> We look for some complicated solution to a most basic problem plaguing humanity.
> We are all different, sometimes irreparably so.


Hi
Are you referring to my posts above with the thanksgiving and anniversary description? I'm trying to present her things she has said to me ... I'm not perfect ... So I'm trying to relay what she has said also....


----------



## Ss01

Ss01 said:


> Hi
> Are you referring to my posts above with the thanksgiving and anniversary description? I'm trying to present her things she has said to me ... I'm not perfect ... So I'm trying to relay what she has said also....


I know she mentioned a number of times that living with me is so different than anything she grew up with or her friends etc.

Her dad was a high school teacher and mom was a bank teller. They were usually home everyday around 3pm ... Me not so much... But then again... She didn't take swanky vacations as a kid either.

Maybe the myths behind 'only children's are true? She doesn't have any siblings


----------



## Tilted 1

Ss01 said:


> I hear what they are saying.. I don't believe she doesn't love me so I'm disregarding that but I get how it could appear that way through a message post.
> 
> It's hard for me to hear I am not compassionate and i don't apologize.
> 
> I have read so many books, and therapy and couples therapy which were all my ideas. Asking how I can be a better partner, tell me what you feel or share your thoughts.... I can only do so much.....maybe I've done way too much.


Your truly co-dependent, and it's sad because your denial is one of the hallmarks of dependence. You wishy-washy and you cannot think for your self. You will remain in this rut until you die. And then your justify the time spent of not moving on as heroic. 

You just as well, beg her to tell you what your next step you should take. All of this sound advice given is your motivation to remain. 

So stop and get use too being, just as your are and nothing will save you. Until you have come to the end of your life. 

Welcome to the darkness pit of despair and regret.


----------



## Openminded

She says, she says, she says.

She’s not ever going to run out of “reasons” why.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> She says, she says, she says.
> 
> She’s not ever going to run out of “reasons” why.


Facts... The more I talk to her the more I'm like: Wow... there is some bad stuff that's been circulating for a while... Im the only one who can stop it...I can't fix it on my own...but I can stop it


----------



## Ss01

Tilted 1 said:


> Your truly co-dependent, and it's sad because your denial is one of the hallmarks of dependence. You wishy-washy and you cannot think for your self. You will remain in this rut until you die. And then your justify the time spent of not moving on as heroic.
> 
> You just as well, beg her to tell you what your next step you should take. All of this sound advice given is your motivation to remain.
> 
> So stop and get use too being, just as your are and nothing will save you. Until you have come to the end of your life.
> 
> Welcome to the darkness pit of despair and regret.


Negative Ghostrider ...


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> The other thing here...she was at the house with me and the kids for a little bit between 5pm and 7pm.
> 
> So we went for a ride for takeout to get dinner.
> 
> On the ride, I had asked her more about the embarrassing remark. She said I focus too much on negativity most of the time.
> 
> She said I don't respect her interests.
> 
> For example, her parents 50th anniversary. I was late picking her and the kids up. We made it to the anniversary before most of everyone else and before her parents. She said that I'm not even remorseful and I tell her it's because I was leaving work or was tied up at work and was late.
> 
> She said on thanksgiving 2 years ago, I yelled at my daughter after dinner. Daughter was being brat, swearing about school stuff, so yes I told her to knock it off or shut up. That did stop everyone in their tracks and her parents were surprised and she thoughy i was out of line. I said, do we have to be cursing on thanksgiving about these school friends or drama? I then went to another room in the house to remove myself from the situation and not argue. She said tonight I was out of line and made a scene at her parents house. We did talk about it on the way home that night...she said we can't even go to Thanksgiving without a problem.
> 
> She says I focus on the negative because it's a good way to spin a humorous story. For example, I took us all to Grand Bahama last year. 5 days. The outbound flight sucked...up at 3am and I was wiped out for almost a day down there. So yes, I've recounted that story with, even as she says, humor spin but all I do is focus on the negative. I enjoyed the vacation and work was at lull so it was a great get away for me. Despite the 10k plus sticker tag (see there is my negativity?!)
> 
> I was actually telling a friend of mine about grand Bahama. The ocean was amazing, it looked as blue as Windex to the horizon...
> 
> She says that she feels that work is always a higher priority than her. She said she still feels that way, even though over the last 6 years I've dramatically slashed my hours at work. I used to work 55+ ... I barely work 30hrs a week now and the business is even more successful. Ive has some peak stuff going on over the last few months so I've had a few late nights (8pm) across the last 3 to 4 months.
> 
> Maybe I am a negative person?? I can't believe that... It's also sad for me that I don't get a backup from my wife when,the rare occasion, that I yell at my kids when they are stepping over the line.


Brother, listen... you can write about all this stuff. And you know, feel free, it may help you feel better to kind of journal it. 

But it is not going to change anything. She is not into you now, if she ever was. Or she has a boyfriend or what ever. 

Nothing is going to change. She is bringing up complete and total ******** to justify her poor treatment of you. 

The bad thing about his is, she does not just have the balls to say I want a divorce and I don't love you... 

You are wasting your time trying to understand this stuff when the answer is in front of your face...


----------



## sunsetmist

Wow, she has store-housed a load of resentment. (I personally have seen a lot of women do that.) I'm wondering if, when she accuses you of something, you try to refute/justify what you feel is inaccurate and then she does not feel heard? 

Just for the sake of trying something different, repeat back to her what she said to you without trying to refute. For example, "You think I value work over you. Tell me more." And so forth.. Do not offer any more of your POV--she will be waiting for and expecting it. This is called reflective listening--read about it. It will not be easy for you. Nor easy for her because she will be expecting the 'old' you and you have thrown her a curve. 

DK how only child position affects her life--maybe you are insightful here.

BTW: Beware of falling for a divorcing friend before you are totally out of your marriage. You do not know what it is like to live with that woman, nor do you want to be called a cheater.


----------



## Ss01

sunsetmist said:


> Wow, she has store-housed a load of resentment. (I personally have seen a lot of women do that.) I'm wondering if, when she accuses you of something, you try to refute/justify what you feel is inaccurate and then she does not feel heard?
> 
> Just for the sake of trying something different, repeat back to her what she said to you without trying to refute. For example, "You think I value work over you. Tell me more." And so forth.. Do not offer any more of your POV--she will be waiting for and expecting it. This is called reflective listening--read about it. It will not be easy for you. Nor easy for her because she will be expecting the 'old' you and you have thrown her a curve.
> 
> DK how only child position affects her life--maybe you are insightful here.
> 
> BTW: Beware of falling for a divorcing friend before you are totally out of your marriage. You do not know what it is like to live with that woman, nor do you want to be called a cheater.



We both learned the idea of the "mirroring" to repeat back. I use that alot in business (to make sure that I understand what they are talking about - half the time when you repeat it back, they didn't understand what they mean). So I applied that here and there in our relationship - she didn't quite like it because it seemed forced/exaggerated when she used the mirror concept.

She has recently said the following (copying this from texts)
1) she doesn't feel I respected her enough to have a rational talk about sex
2) she feels she wasn't respected enough and I would rather "toss out" the whole relationship
3) she feels I have not been honest with my feelings (i.e. asking her to goto the gym - i should have detailed that it meant alot to me and I wanted to go so we can be together)
4) she says I was more affectionate to her over the last few weeks before I asked her for a divorce, so she is confused by that.

She also says we have both "slacked off" over the years on some relationship items.


----------



## Ss01

she also said she has only heard about what "she needs to do to fix and improve the relationship" and not anything about what "i need to do to fix and improve the relationship".


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> she also said she has only heard about what "she needs to do to fix and improve the relationship" and not anything about what "i need to do to fix and improve the relationship".


Now did you file for divorce? Or not? 

Do you honestly thing ANYTHING is going to change. 

Why are you even listening to any of this? I mean are you some type of masochist or something. I mean no judgment if that is your bag I am just wondering????


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Ss01 said:


> She has recently said the following (copying this from texts)
> 1) she doesn't feel I respected her enough to have a rational talk about sex
> 2) she feels she wasn't respected enough and I would rather "toss out" the whole relationship
> 3) she feels I have not been honest with my feelings (i.e. asking her to goto the gym - i should have detailed that it meant alot to me and I wanted to go so we can be together)
> 4) she says I was more affectionate to her over the last few weeks before I asked her for a divorce, so she is confused by that.
> 
> She also says we have both "slacked off" over the years on some relationship items.


All of this is her blame shifting, gaslighting, and holding out hoops for you to jump through. She threw in something about “both” of you so that it looks to you like she is owning a tiny piece of this crap. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> Now did you file for divorce? Or not?
> 
> Do you honestly thing ANYTHING is going to change.
> 
> Why are you even listening to any of this? I mean are you some type of masochist or something. I mean no judgment if that is your bag I am just wondering????


No...not a masochist 
We have been talking through text which can be easier for her since she isn't on the spot to say something in the moment.

My lawyer has a separation paper in process...needs time to have that before divorce paper I suppose.


----------



## Ss01

Hi folks, some updates here.

I had two of my own draft of a separation agreements (reviewed by my lawyer) and showed them to her. She didn't respond to either and said that she wasnt interested yet. I had a postnuptial written (separation lite) and she said her attorney said no one needs a post nuptial.

She says she wants to fix the issues and doesn't want to be divorced. 

Granted that is not a life goal of mine either!

We have spent a few nights together on and off talking about relationship and what each of us wants. 

A few days ago, in the morning we fooled around a bit in bed and she actually gave me a bit of oral sex. That may have been the 4th time in 20+ years that such a thing happened.

She says she wants to be more assertive with her desires and says she did take things for granted in our relationship. She says she would be happy to go away on a few impromptu trips (I've been pushing for that!!) And she really likes sex and wants to share more of her thoughts in the moment. All sounds great I suppose.

In the mix here...my relationship that's been growing with my female friend. I really really like her and I'm aggrivated that now my wife seems to be so agreeable to the things I've wanted and ask for etc for years. Now that I am wanting to be with my female friend and spend more time etc with her ... My wife wants to turn over a new leaf! 

I don't think my wife is ready to make a wholesale change in her behavior yet...but maybe over time? Most likely not....I'm worried that once the "danger" passes it would be so easy to revert to old ways.

The other wrinkle here is that my wife knows who my female friend is. She knows her previous to all of this. We have had some talks about her because she knows I had dinner with my friend a few days ago. I wasn't hiding it either but I sure wasn't bragging or trying to inflict hurt either.

Like I said, divorce isn't some life goal of mine. What if I tried again with my wife and wound back up in the same place again? I would miss out on a chance to be with my friend who I think is really a fantastic person, to say the least. I don't want to be divorced, I don't want to be in a sexless distant marriage, and I don't want to miss the chance to grow a full relationship with my female friend. What a choice :0


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## BluesPower

Honestly, too little too late if you ask me. 

You must know that she is not attracted to you sexually, you know that right. She is not into you anymore. She has not been for a while. 

Why are you even trying is what I don't understand. She knows you have someone waiting in the wings, and she does not want to lose her lifestyle that YOU Provide. That is the only reason that you are seeing anything. 

Why waste another 8 day much less years. 

Move on...


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> Honestly, too little too late if you ask me.
> 
> You must know that she is not attracted to you sexually, you know that right. She is not into you anymore. She has not been for a while.
> 
> Why are you even trying is what I don't understand. She knows you have someone waiting in the wings, and she does not want to lose her lifestyle that YOU Provide. That is the only reason that you are seeing anything.
> 
> Why waste another 8 day much less years.
> 
> Move on...


I think the combination of not wanting to lose the lifestyle and knowing that the home I'm living in hasn't fallen apart either ... Plus my female friend definitely has added pressure to this situation for her. She had scoffed about "who was going to keep the house clean?!" I bought a Roomba ! Which vacuums wood floors better than any human would


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> I think the combination of not wanting to lose the lifestyle and knowing that the home I'm living in hasn't fallen apart either ... Plus my female friend definitely has added pressure to this situation for her. She had scoffed about "who was going to keep the house clean?!" I bought a Roomba ! Which vacuums wood floors better than any human would


I am going to try one more time because I don't think you are getting me... 

Do you want to be with a woman that pretends to love you and pretends to want to screw you?

Or, do you want to be with someone that actually loves you and finds you sexually attractive and wants to **** you?

Because your wife will never be option two...


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> I am going to try one more time because I don't think you are getting me...
> 
> Do you want to be with a woman that pretends to love you and pretends to want to screw you?
> 
> Or, do you want to be with someone that actually loves you and finds you sexually attractive and wants to **** you?
> 
> Because your wife will never be option two...



Well obviously #2


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## 3Xnocharm

You’re falling for the same old song and dance. Lather rinse repeat. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

I can tell you from my own experience in a long marriage that temporary change is the easy part. Permanent change is another story. That requires a lot of effort and few people are willing to put in the work long-term. Right now your wife feels threatened and she’s trying to reel you back in. Whether she’s capable of real change is unknown at the moment. It happens but it’s not that common for someone to do a 180. You’ll have to decide if you’re willing to take the chance that she‘ll revert to her usual pattern as soon as you agree to try again.


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## Openminded

You need to be honest with your female friend that you are considering reconciling. She can then make the choice whether to continue seeing you.


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## Evinrude58

When you are counting sex by the times a month, and it’s basically always been this way.....
You and your wife are just living life trying to be comfortable. You sound like you have some drive to your personality. You’ve built a successful business, you want success in your relationship, too! You are still wanting to grow and make your life better.
i don’t even know what your wife wants, but clearly she doesn’t really want YOU. She may want your companionship, your Security you provide—- but wanting you romantically??? Nah, she doesn’t. Hasn’t ever, most likely. It’s not you, it’s her.
Suggestion: Divorce and see what it’s like to be loved.


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## hubbyintrubby

She's giving you just enough crumbs to question your own decisions, mate. No doubt you'll end up where you've been, and it probably won't even be all that long before that happens. Keep up on your plans to separate and move on. Nothing to see here.


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## MJJEAN

If you hadn't shown her papers and if she didn't think there was another woman waiting in the wings her lips would never have ventured south of the border. She's bothering because she knows you have one foot out the door and knows there is another woman who may be interested in you.That's all. When she feels secure again her behavior will revert.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> You need to be honest with your female friend that you are considering reconciling. She can then make the choice whether to continue seeing you.


My friend knows I've been talking to my wife. Reconcillation is a bit of a strong word but she is aware that this is difficult all around.


----------



## Ss01

hubbyintrubby said:


> She's giving you just enough crumbs to question your own decisions, mate. No doubt you'll end up where you've been, and it probably won't even be all that long before that happens. Keep up on your plans to separate and move on. Nothing to see here.


That's what I fear the most. I have no desire to be divorced etc....but I don't want to wind up in the same barren place and have to go through the same emotional pains again...while having burned a bridge with my female friend who I do really like


----------



## Ss01

MJJEAN said:


> If you hadn't shown her papers and if she didn't think there was another woman waiting in the wings her lips would never have ventured south of the border. She's bothering because she knows you have one foot out the door and knows there is another woman who may be interested in you.That's all. When she feels secure again her behavior will revert.


That's a big fear of mine, that once the 'crisis' passes it will be right back to where we were. And then the icing on the cake would be that I'd had burned a bridge with my female friend who I do enjoy....


----------



## Openminded

Ss01 said:


> My friend knows I've been talking to my wife. Reconcillation is a bit of a strong word but she is aware that this is difficult all around.


Does she know about the recent sex part?


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> Does she know about the recent sex part?


No...she knows more about the conversations I've been having with my wife and discussions about what each of us may have done wrong etc.


----------



## Openminded

Ss01 said:


> No...she knows more about the conversations I've been having with my wife and discussions about what each of us may have done wrong etc.


That may or may not be a deal breaker for her (it likely would be for most women). You need to be honest with her that it’s gone beyond just talking so she can decide what she wants to do with that information.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> That may or may not be a deal breaker for her (it likely would be for most women). You need to be honest with her that it’s gone beyond just talking so she can decide what she wants to do with that information.


That is a good point! My wife is planning to take furniture out of the main house tomorrow...which I'm sure will be unpleasant for me...so I don't think reconciliation is really in the cards. My friend did know that my wife was spending the night a few days.

Unbelievable that now I see this "offering" from my wife such as more feelings and wanting be more assertive and the sex part..
After I have started to have some feelings and enjoy the company of my female friend. Unbelievable!

Even more so, wife was talking about starting her own physical therapy practice for some of her current patients that have been calling her during COVID distancing. She is a PT and has worked at a clinic about 10 to 15 hours a week for several years. She never expressed the idea of starting her own practice.... I do find ambition to be an attractive quality


----------



## MJJEAN

Ss01 said:


> That's a big fear of mine, that once the 'crisis' passes it will be right back to where we were. And then the icing on the cake would be that I'd had burned a bridge with my female friend who I do enjoy....


Research hysterical bonding and mate guarding. There is a threat to the relationship. She is responding accordingly. Once the threat has passed she will very likely revert to normal behavior.



Ss01 said:


> That is a good point! My wife is planning to take furniture out of the main house tomorrow...which I'm sure will be unpleasant for me...so I don't think reconciliation is really in the cards. My friend did know that my wife was spending the night a few days.
> 
> Unbelievable that now I see this "offering" from my wife such as more feelings and wanting be more assertive and the sex part..
> After I have started to have some feelings and enjoy the company of my female friend. Unbelievable!
> 
> Even more so, wife was talking about starting her own physical therapy practice for some of her current patients that have been calling her during COVID distancing. She is a PT and has worked at a clinic about 10 to 15 hours a week for several years. She never expressed the idea of starting her own practice.... I do find ambition to be an attractive quality


There is a difference between spending the night under the same roof in what is known to be a DB and having sex. Your friend has a right to know that you have recently had sex with someone else, even if it was your wife.

Don't read too much into her talk of starting a business. A) It's just talk at this point. Words are wind. B) I'm not sure of your financial situation, but it's possible she's not ambitious at all, but practical. Divorcing means supporting herself. She needs an income source. As things currently stand, until the economy reopens, working as a private PT is probably her best bet. And C) If she knows ambition is something you favor she will pretend to ambition just like she pretends to sex and affection as part of her hysterical bonding/mate guarding gig.

She's doing a "pick me!" dance. Once you "pick her" (again) you're stuck with the actual her (again).


----------



## aine

Ss01 said:


> My friend knows I've been talking to my wife. Reconcillation is a bit of a strong word but she is aware that this is difficult all around.


you are now playing with fire and not giving your wife a chance to see whether your marriage is salvageable. I am also wondering whether all the negativity about your wife and marriage are not magnified because of this so called "friend:" in the wings.
Are you trying to justify your pursuit of a separation/divorce. You keep saying you don't want a divorce but you sure want to test drive the new model. This also coming from someone who has already had an affair and given their time and attention to someone else. Why should your wife trust anything about you. If she had come on this site we would have all told her to dump your ass and get rid of you.
Be a man and do the right thing and stop the pontificating. Go ahead and see if far away fields are green. I felt sorry for you initially in the beginning of this thread but am now wondering whether most of us her where not led up the garden path by your sob story, now that there is a 'friend' conveniently waiting in the wings.
To my mind your integrity is in question and you blame shifted your EA totally onto your wife and swept it all under the carpet. Everyone here seems to have also rug swept it and focused on poor you and your tale of woe.
Any self respecting wife would protect her heart from such a husband as you but you are too dumb to see that. You sir are not the poor scorned husband you pretend to be.
A man who spends the majority of his time working and putting work as a priority is setting himself up to lose his wife and marriage. He can buy all the holidays, fancy cars and houses there are but the neglect causes untold damage to a relationship. None of this seems to have featured in your ramblings on this thread.

Neglect in a marriage is a silent killer, I am sure with all your reading you ought to have known that and your wife mentioned what did you have to do to help the marriage, it seems nothing, you are perfect. That is a red flag there and I call ********.
We are only hearing half of this story. Do your wife a favour and divorce her.


----------



## aine

Ss01 said:


> That's what I fear the most. I have no desire to be divorced etc....but I don't want to wind up in the same barren place and have to go through the same emotional pains again...while having burned a bridge with my female friend who I do really like


sounds a bit like someone wants to have their cake and eat it, cheater speak?


----------



## Marduk

You've pushed the ball 99 yards down the field, are about to punch it up the middle and win the game, and you're handing the other team the ball.

I'm not sure why you want to do that.

Of course your wife is toying with you. It obviously works.

Of course if you try to reconcile she'll go back to her old ways. She'll know that she's one BJ away from getting away with whatever she wants.

Of course she doesn't want to sign those papers. She knows she'll be losing out.

This game is so obvious if you're sitting in the stands. Get some objectivity. Finish the game, spike the ball, and go home and be free.


----------



## Openminded

She doesn’t want a divorce. That means she’ll do what’s necessary (for awhile) to keep you in place. But this isn’t fair to your female friend. That’s why it’s never good to see someone who’s married because they often waffle.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> She doesn’t want a divorce. That means she’ll do what’s necessary (for awhile) to keep you in place. But this isn’t fair to your female friend. That’s why it’s never good to see someone who’s married because they often waffle.





aine said:


> sounds a bit like someone wants to have their cake and eat it, cheater speak?



The timeline is not exactly correct there. I only started talking in depth with my female friend after telling my wife I wanted a divorce. There were no shenanigans at all around that.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> She doesn’t want a divorce. That means she’ll do what’s necessary (for awhile) to keep you in place. But this isn’t fair to your female friend. That’s why it’s never good to see someone who’s married because they often waffle.





aine said:


> you are now playing with fire and not giving your wife a chance to see whether your marriage is salvageable. I am also wondering whether all the negativity about your wife and marriage are not magnified because of this so called "friend:" in the wings.
> Are you trying to justify your pursuit of a separation/divorce. You keep saying you don't want a divorce but you sure want to test drive the new model. This also coming from someone who has already had an affair and given their time and attention to someone else. Why should your wife trust anything about you. If she had come on this site we would have all told her to dump your ass and get rid of you.
> Be a man and do the right thing and stop the pontificating. Go ahead and see if far away fields are green. I felt sorry for you initially in the beginning of this thread but am now wondering whether most of us her where not led up the garden path by your sob story, now that there is a 'friend' conveniently waiting in the wings.
> To my mind your integrity is in question and you blame shifted your EA totally onto your wife and swept it all under the carpet. Everyone here seems to have also rug swept it and focused on poor you and your tale of woe.
> Any self respecting wife would protect her heart from such a husband as you but you are too dumb to see that. You sir are not the poor scorned husband you pretend to be.
> A man who spends the majority of his time working and putting work as a priority is setting himself up to lose his wife and marriage. He can buy all the holidays, fancy cars and houses there are but the neglect causes untold damage to a relationship. None of this seems to have featured in your ramblings on this thread.
> 
> Neglect in a marriage is a silent killer, I am sure with all your reading you ought to have known that and your wife mentioned what did you have to do to help the marriage, it seems nothing, you are perfect. That is a red flag there and I call ********.
> We are only hearing half of this story. Do your wife a favour and divorce her.



Valid point! I actually said to her a few days ago that I'd sell the business in a heartbeat to an eligible purchaser. I never really wanted in that way....


----------



## Openminded

Ss01 said:


> The timeline is not exactly correct there. I only started talking in depth with my female friend after telling my wife I wanted a divorce. There were no shenanigans at all around that.


Yes, but things are complicated _now_. If your friend cares for you, she stands a very good chance of getting hurt. That’s why seeing someone married but separated is a risk. Many people waffle about getting out vs. staying and end up staying. The fallout often lands heaviest on the person who was seeing them during the separation. That’s why I feel she should know about the sex.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> Yes, but things are complicated _now_. If your friend cares for you, she stands a very good chance of getting hurt. That’s why seeing someone married but separated is a risk. Many people waffle about getting out vs. staying and end up staying. The fallout often lands heaviest on the person who was seeing them during the separation. That’s why I feel she should know about the sex.


Yes, I will bring this up with her tomorrow. She knows I am still married and knows my wife has been here several times still. I don't want her in the middle feeling like she is getting shoved aside or treated poorly. 

On the other side, I did get the draft of the separation document from my lawyer today to review... Similar to the other documents I hand wrote to my wife that she didn't want to explore or discuss.


----------



## Ss01

Openminded said:


> Yes, but things are complicated _now_. If your friend cares for you, she stands a very good chance of getting hurt. That’s why seeing someone married but separated is a risk. Many people waffle about getting out vs. staying and end up staying. The fallout often lands heaviest on the person who was seeing them during the separation. That’s why I feel she should know about the sex.



My friends says she isn't surprised, and figured it may happen as she went through her own separation too with her exhusband. She says she is here for me regardless of what happens, she wants to be with me and that she is trying to be realistic about what the next year may look like in this together.

Wow....talk about an understanding response.


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> My friends says she isn't surprised, and figured it may happen as she went through her own separation too with her exhusband. She says she is here for me regardless of what happens, she wants to be with me and that she is trying to be realistic about what the next year may look like in this together.
> 
> Wow....talk about an understanding response.


I don't know how healthy she is as a person, but what I do know is this... 

SHE actually loves you, you may be a little dense and not know that. 

Because you certainly cannot tell that your actual wife does not love you no matter how obvious it is to everyone in the world. 

But this friend is there to pick up the pieces when you finally realize that your wife is using you and does not love you. 

Is she crazy, who knows. 

But at least someone is in love with you. I hope she is a good lay, that may be some consolation for you in the long run...


----------



## Evinrude58

Your wife is gonna string you along forever. 
master reading this....
You married a woman who NEVER wanted sex very often. She really didn’t trick you at all. You got exactly what you knew you were getting. 20 yrs later you want a divorce.
It makes no sense.

you’re the one who‘s feelings have changed.

and you are also wrong to talk to this “female friend” until you have ducorced or at least formally separated for good.

Your wife isn’t into sex, never has been. Every woman I have ever been in love with— we were like rabbits at first, and never went more than 3 or 4 dats without. 
You chose to marry a woman who wasn't really into sex. you can change your mind, but I actually have a little compassion for her, and don’t necessarily think you’re in the right to do it (matters not). She’s always been the same. She’s not ever gonna give you good sex.
If you want out, rip off the bandaid and divorce her. But hold off on other women until it’s done. Not maybe done, or 99% done, but DONE.


----------



## Ss01

In talking with my wife, who is still resistant to the separation/divorce idea. I asked her what a "reset looks like"

She said that she wants me to stop talking/associating with my female friend and to believe whatever she tells me about her feelings regardless of how it looks to me because I don't know what her feelings are so I don't get it discount them by saying that they don't make sense to me.

I said "ok, so if I do that....you'd go-to the gym with me or walk ? We could find a common activity to do a couple times a month? And we could have sex twice a month?" 

She said "yes, we could. Those aren't big deals to her"


Wow...so obviously I ask why didn't this happen till now if it was so easy. She said she is saying it now and isn't that what I want??

So I know what's going to happen here.
I ditch my friend (and a future relationship potential there..which does seem pretty alluring) and she is upset. My wife and I start the reset, after 3 or 4 more months of muddling around ... She will tell me that it's not working because of blah blah and she will leave. Then I'll be back here in a crummy spot in my marriage and having burned the bridge with my friend who I care for. 

I'm sure that is what would happen?? Am I wrong?? She will have removed the threat to the marriage and the threat of female friend, then it goes back to where it was or worse...
She decides it's not working out...

Meanwhile, I have a check made out to her attorney for $9500 for their retainer which I need pay for her. A court would just petition me to pay it anyway, so I'll just send the check. I'll be in $20k so far in lawyer fees between hers and mine...sheesh...probably 15k more to go I'd imagine. 

Important safety tip: make sure your spouse has a job that provides an actual income so they can pay for their own laywer at least....gosh


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## 3Xnocharm

Yeah you’ve called it, this would be her half-assing it all the way. I do agree that if you were actually going to work on this, you would have to give up your friend. Inappropriate, 100%. But your wife wouldn’t hold up her end for more than about six weeks, if that. And she would keep adding conditions. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Casual Observer

Ss01 said:


> So I know what's going to happen here.
> I ditch my friend (and a future relationship potential there..which does seem pretty alluring) and she is upset. My wife and I start the reset, after 3 or 4 more months of muddling around ... She will tell me that it's not working because of blah blah and she will leave. Then I'll be back here in a crummy spot in my marriage and having burned the bridge with my friend who I care for.


You need to define, and put on paper, what a success at working things out looks like. A roadmap that says at this date, x. By this date, y. No relapses. If you want to go that way.


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## Ss01

3Xnocharm said:


> Yeah you’ve called it, this would be her half-assing it all the way. I do agree that if you were actually going to work on this, you would have to give up your friend. Inappropriate, 100%. But your wife wouldn’t hold up her end for more than about six weeks, if that. And she would keep adding conditions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I completely agree, I would not try to actively work it out with her and keep my female friend on the "side" or backup. I like her too much ... Besides the fact that it's a really wrong thing to do.


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## Ss01

Casual Observer said:


> You need to define, and put on paper, what a success at working things out looks like. A roadmap that says at this date, x. By this date, y. No relapses. If you want to go that way.


Before I said I wanted a divorce in March, there was an idea floated about a 90day let's get it together plan etc. After 1 week that feel apart. So the date driven model may not work either.

Plus it feels crummy to be with someone who you finally "convinced" to do it and be open and have sex more etc.


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## Evinrude58

Duty sex twice a month? I think she’d do it to keep the marriage, but who wants duty sex?

you’ve put yourself in a tough spot, and your wife as well.


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## Ss01

Evinrude58 said:


> Duty sex twice a month? I think she’d do it to keep the marriage, but who wants duty sex?
> 
> you’ve put yourself in a tough spot, and your wife as well.


I don't want duty sex, we were kind of there before a bit anyway at once a month. I did tell her I wanted a divorce and had a plan written on how to divide things up. That never went anywhere despite 4 versions that I wrote up and asked her to read and mark up/etc.

I agree, things are a little stickier now..
Which wasn't my goal at all...


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## aine

Just divorce already..............................................


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## Ss01

aine said:


> Just divorce already..............................................




I thought we could have had a legal separation signed by now..nope...so this is going to take unnecessary time and emotional pain. Yuck


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## Ss01

Things are moving ahead, slowly.... I've written a $7500 check to her lawyer so we can at least get a conversation on the "separation agreement" moving ahead.
She is planning on moving into a house that her friends owns (for rent - not with the friend) in the next week or so.
The second home that we own is also closing for sale on July 15. I told her all of the proceeds from that (should be about $75k) that she can just keep, I don't want it.

I was texting her a bit the other day on some items with kids and asked her a bit about the talks she was having with her therapist. The therapist is the same one that we used for about 2 years in couples consoling. 

I had asked her if I can stop down and talk to her.
She didn't reply because she was out with friends.
I sent her this message in the morning at one point.
Her reply....though. I don't know if I should feel hurt, or vindicated, or angry, or sad for her? What a stew of emotions there.
How do I interpret her reply? She feels its easier to talk to her good friends (who she rarely has seen until recently. I know this because I kept asking every few months: how is so-and-so, when can we all goto dinner or out together/etc/etc). So she feels able to be vulnerable(?) with her "good friends" but not with me, spouse for ~21 years, known her for about 25yrs, trying to actively engage in couples therapy and I improved so much that even my kids commented on how "easier I was at home and less stressed I appeared to be".

What planet am I on?


----------



## Casual Observer

Ss01 said:


> Things are moving ahead, slowly.... I've written a $7500 check to her lawyer so we can at least get a conversation on the "separation agreement" moving ahead.
> She is planning on moving into a house that her friends owns (for rent - not with the friend) in the next week or so.
> The second home that we own is also closing for sale on July 15. I told her all of the proceeds from that (should be about $75k) that she can just keep, I don't want it.
> 
> I was texting her a bit the other day on some items with kids and asked her a bit about the talks she was having with her therapist. The therapist is the same one that we used for about 2 years in couples consoling.
> 
> I had asked her if I can stop down and talk to her.
> She didn't reply because she was out with friends.
> I sent her this message in the morning at one point.
> Her reply....though. I don't know if I should feel hurt, or vindicated, or angry, or sad for her? What a stew of emotions there.
> How do I interpret her reply? She feels its easier to talk to her good friends (who she rarely has seen until recently. I know this because I kept asking every few months: how is so-and-so, when can we all goto dinner or out together/etc/etc). So she feels able to be vulnerable(?) with her "good friends" but not with me, spouse for ~21 years, known her for about 25yrs, trying to actively engage in couples therapy and I improved so much that even my kids commented on how "easier I was at home and less stressed I appeared to be".
> 
> What planet am I on?
> 
> 
> View attachment 69886


It looks like she's found a way to comfortably move on, rationalizing everything in a way that really doesn't include you. She's now re-writing the past as part of that. I wouldn't spend much time from here on, doing anything in a way that makes things easier on her feelings. You need to have a functional relationship with her regarding the kids, and... that's about it. Trying for anything more is going to chew you up. It's really hard to read this stuff.


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## 3Xnocharm

Not sure why you are taking this butt kissy approach, you are divorcing her. Let it go. The sooner you let go, the sooner you move forward to better things for yourself. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ss01

I've been moving things in the house, furniture and pictures and such. Remembering good and bad things that have happened over 20yrs. It's just a weird mix of frustration and sad.

In that message "I need more support than most"

Ok...that's part of why I wanted to do therapy for 2+years. She was unwilling/unable to be vulnerable/open in therapy? What chance did I actually have at fixing things and making things really better...I feel foolish to say the least


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## Evinrude58

Gotta move on.... stop dwelling on your wife. Go get a girlfriend.


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> In that message "I need more support than most"
> 
> Ok...that's part of why I wanted to do therapy for 2+years. She was unwilling/unable to be vulnerable/open in therapy? What chance did I actually have at fixing things and making things really better...I feel foolish to say the least


Listen, I think I have said this before, and you seem like an intelligent guy... 

1) She has never ever, ever, ever been sexually attracted to you in any way, ever. 
2) It is a complete mystery why you have stayed in this sexless, loveless marriage. 
3) You have value as a human being, and she never has thought that once. 

For the love of everything holy, DETACH FROM HER. Start dating sooner rather than later. 

I don't know which therapist you are using if you are, but I think you need a change. I don't know if they are a bad therapist or if you are not able to be honest with them. But, you need to work on your self esteem some way some how. 

Your wife never deserved you for a second. The sooner you realize this , the better off you will be...


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## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> Listen, I think I have said this before, and you seem like an intelligent guy...
> 
> 1) She has never ever, ever, ever been sexually attracted to you in any way, ever.
> 2) It is a complete mystery why you have stayed in this sexless, loveless marriage.
> 3) You have value as a human being, and she never has thought that once.
> 
> For the love of everything holy, DETACH FROM HER. Start dating sooner rather than later.
> 
> I don't know which therapist you are using if you are, but I think you need a change. I don't know if they are a bad therapist or if you are not able to be honest with them. But, you need to work on your self esteem some way some how.
> 
> Your wife never deserved you for a second. The sooner you realize this , the better off you will be...


Well I don't know entirely about 1 and 2, I wouldn't say I've had a loveless marriage or something...that's a bit harsh.

But the other points are valid. I'll feel better when the last couple pieces of her furniture that you want is out of the house that I am living in. I already have a couple replacement pieces on order that are different. 

As far as dating, it's shocking a bit how completely different am I female friend and I are developing a relationship. She is quite different in a lot of ways, all which seemed very positive and a little shocking that someone can be that different


----------



## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> Well I don't know entirely about 1 and 2, I wouldn't say I've had a loveless marriage or something...that's a bit harsh.
> 
> But the other points are valid. I'll feel better when the last couple pieces of her furniture that you want is out of the house that I am living in. I already have a couple replacement pieces on order that are different.
> 
> As far as dating, it's shocking a bit how completely different am I female friend and I are developing a relationship. She is quite different in a lot of ways, all which seemed very positive and a little shocking that someone can be that different


Look, maybe you are right. 

But I want you to think about this, most of the time, if a woman does not want to have sex with you, well... She may not love you. Just saying. Yes you can come up with some outliers if you want to. But let's be real, it is what it is. 

It is better that you grieve what really happened, it is better to believe and understand what really happened. 

I don't say any of this to hurt you. But I say it in the hopes that you learn and grow, and understand what NOT to do. 

I hope that you understand what type relationship to NOT STAY IN, and maybe have an idea of the ones to STAY in... in the future... 

Just a tip, if the sex does not knock your socks off, then that would be one to NOT stay in

I hope you can see that...


----------



## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> Look, maybe you are right.
> 
> But I want you to think about this, most of the time, if a woman does not want to have sex with you, well... She may not love you. Just saying. Yes you can come up with some outliers if you want to. But let's be real, it is what it is.
> 
> It is better that you grieve what really happened, it is better to believe and understand what really happened.
> 
> I don't say any of this to hurt you. But I say it in the hopes that you learn and grow, and understand what NOT to do.
> 
> I hope that you understand what type relationship to NOT STAY IN, and maybe have an idea of the ones to STAY in... in the future...
> 
> Just a tip, if the sex does not knock your socks off, then that would be one to NOT stay in
> 
> I hope you can see that...


Well the sex is certainly been the canary in the coal mine. My kids are 16 and another month, two years they're going off school or at least 18. There is a 0 way I could see myself in a sexless or pseudo sexless marriage for any point in time after the kids were 18. My plan just got accelerated a little bit that's all. This whole thing has been on my mind for quite a while, I tried a lot of different things in therapy there was some general success, but I am not interested in a routine relationship that doesn't involve sex at least a couple times a month. Twice a week but would be fantastic!


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## Openminded

Of course your gf is different. Hopefully, she’s very different. That’s not shocking at all. All women, thankfully, aren‘t like your wife. What’s shocking (to me) is that even recently you would have reconciled with your wife in a heartbeat if she would’ve cooperated just a little. I think you still really wish you could even though she’ll never be who you want her to be. I hope you’re getting better at moving forward and not looking in the rear view mirror so often.


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## Ss01

Openminded said:


> Of course your gf is different. Hopefully, she’s very different. That’s not shocking at all. All women, thankfully, aren‘t like your wife. What’s shocking (to me) is that even recently you would have reconciled with your wife in a heartbeat if she would’ve cooperated just a little. I think you still really wish you could even though she’ll never be who you want her to be. I hope you’re getting better at moving forward and not looking in the rear view mirror so often.


Well...my "hobby" is racing cars. I have a couple cars that use for competitive road racing (Watkins Glen, Sebring , etc)

Anyway, from the movie the gumball rally "the first rule of Italian driving, what's behind you is not important"

I should keep that in mind


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> Well the sex is certainly been the canary in the coal mine. My kids are 16 and another month, two years they're going off school or at least 18. There is a 0 way I could see myself in a sexless or pseudo sexless marriage for any point in time after the kids were 18. My plan just got accelerated a little bit that's all. This whole thing has been on my mind for quite a while, I tried a lot of different things in therapy there was some general success, but I am not interested in a routine relationship that doesn't involve sex at least a couple times a month. Twice a week but would be fantastic!


I guess you may be the most conflict avoidant person in the world. 

Nothing wrong with this post, but you don't address the real issue. She does not love you. And you don't want to see that. 

Hey, lots of us have been there, I get that it hurts. But understand this, lying to yourself does not help you. 

What difference does the kids ages have to do with anything, it is just another excuse, and it always has been. 

Please, maybe you can work on not lying to yourself. I hope you don't think that is too harsh, like I said, I lied to myself about a lot of things, and I was not sexless, I was just stupid...


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## Ss01

Well! I should have know!
We were never able to, the few times it was needed, come to an agreement or work through anything difficult in our marriage.

In order to attempt to come up with a separation plan, I wrote up a 4 page document in March.
Saying essentially
1) i would pay for every single bill she has for the next 2 years - i mean every ****ing one - even groceries!
2) i would give her 70% of the retirement account
3) i would pay her $2500/mo for 4 years.
4) the balance of the sale of the second house (which just sold) of about $50k
Total tab here would be about $500k
I refined this is a bit and did three more revisions on it. The only response I heard was that the "law says more like 8-11 years for payments".
So I said, ok.... what if we do 8 years then at $2500/mo
No reply....

I then, on my own, paid a retainer for her lawyer in June which was $7500.

To which, I have gotten four replies from the lawyer asking for
1. $5800/mo for 13 years
2. the entire retirement account
3. the entire proceeds for the 2nd house
4. and that I pay 70% of the child care costs (granted my kids will be 16 years old next week)
Total tab here, by her calculations, $1.1 million dollars! And that is just for items 1,2,3 ... let alone how much more item #4 would cost

So my lawyer replied back to her lawyer and her.
The state calculations show $2500/mo for alimony and about $2100/mo for child support.
I've already saved up $250k between two 529 plans for the kids for when they are 19,20,21. New York state requires child support until kids are 21.
So we said, lets do $4600/mo for 2 years, then $2500/mo for 6 years. The years 19,20,21 of child support will come from the 529 plans
I said I would give her 90% of the retirement account
the proceeds fromt he 2nd house as well
Total tab here, is about $670k

The responded with a No. After 3 rounds of that ********, their offer for settlement remained in the $950k-$1million dollar range.
Essentially 50% above the state calculations and for a term of 11 years. In theory, the state term could be between 8-11 years since we were married for 22 years.

She told my kids, which my daughter told me today, that "what difference does it make, your dad will just keep working and make more money, i should say i want $2million"

I filed for a contested divorce on Monday august 10th.

Unfucking real. Its like a magnification of my marriage. I could never meet the right "bar" or threshold. How the hell Is my offer at $670k which is inline with the state calculations an unfair offer.
She has a masters degree in physical therapy and a valid physical therapy license. She is 47 years old. She can easily get a job making $100k a year with benefits.

I've been asking her for the last 2 months to meet and talk about all of this together. Kept blowing me off.
I even asked her about it last thursday the 6th. And she said she "didn't want to argue" What the ****!

She has now selected us on the road of maximum conflict. I am so mad about this.


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## aine

Ss01 said:


> Things are moving ahead, slowly.... I've written a $7500 check to her lawyer so we can at least get a conversation on the "separation agreement" moving ahead.
> She is planning on moving into a house that her friends owns (for rent - not with the friend) in the next week or so.
> The second home that we own is also closing for sale on July 15. I told her all of the proceeds from that (should be about $75k) that she can just keep, I don't want it.
> 
> I was texting her a bit the other day on some items with kids and asked her a bit about the talks she was having with her therapist. The therapist is the same one that we used for about 2 years in couples consoling.
> 
> I had asked her if I can stop down and talk to her.
> She didn't reply because she was out with friends.
> I sent her this message in the morning at one point.
> Her reply....though. I don't know if I should feel hurt, or vindicated, or angry, or sad for her? What a stew of emotions there.
> How do I interpret her reply? She feels its easier to talk to her good friends (who she rarely has seen until recently. I know this because I kept asking every few months: how is so-and-so, when can we all goto dinner or out together/etc/etc). So she feels able to be vulnerable(?) with her "good friends" but not with me, spouse for ~21 years, known her for about 25yrs, trying to actively engage in couples therapy and I improved so much that even my kids commented on how "easier I was at home and less stressed I appeared to be".
> 
> What planet am I on?
> 
> 
> View attachment 69886


Why are you getting so hung up on what your STBXW thinks anymore. You are pretty clear you want to move ahead, appointing lawyers etc.
I suggest she could not be vulnerable with you because your heart was not safe with her. When a spouse commits adultery (in your case EA) then the adulterous spouse is no longer a safe partner. You painted a picture of you being the victim, which imo says a lot about you. No concern for the damage it did to your wife, you lost the privilege of her vulnerability.
The marriage is never the same, giving a part of yourself to another woman which should have been reserved for your wife placed you in the 'not to be fully trusted' zone. You seem very naive for a man who has been married for so many years and says you have done so much work on yourself. It seems you haven't learned much at all.
it is possible for her to be vulnerable but only with those she knows she can trust fully. No rocket science there. And why should you be 'hurt' 'offended' etc, it is what it is.
Let your wife go.


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## aine

Ss01 said:


> Well I don't know entirely about 1 and 2, I wouldn't say I've had a loveless marriage or something...that's a bit harsh.
> 
> But the other points are valid. I'll feel better when the last couple pieces of her furniture that you want is out of the house that I am living in. I already have a couple replacement pieces on order that are different.
> 
> As far as dating, it's shocking a bit how completely different am I female friend and I are developing a relationship. She is quite different in a lot of ways, all which seemed very positive and a little shocking that someone can be that different


I agree it is a bit harsh. I think your wife loved you but you weren't as perfect as you paint here. You committed adultery and still expected her to get with your program, which everyone on here seems to be conveniently ignoring and making generalizations about her not wanting sex with you etc. I am sure you told her many times that she wasn't doing it for you, the EA was her fault etc. The death knell to your marriage I am sure of it.
You had at least some more years after that as she had every right to divorce you then. You decided to divorce, what else do you want from her? Perhaps you are scared you are making a mistake and you will discover the problem wasn't your wife after all. That's a risk you have to take, you started that ball rolling already. it is too late to go back, the damage is done


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## aine

BluesPower said:


> Look, maybe you are right.
> 
> But I want you to think about this, most of the time, if a woman does not want to have sex with you, well... She may not love you. Just saying. Yes you can come up with some outliers if you want to. But let's be real, it is what it is.
> 
> It is better that you grieve what really happened, it is better to believe and understand what really happened.
> 
> I don't say any of this to hurt you. But I say it in the hopes that you learn and grow, and understand what NOT to do.
> 
> I hope that you understand what type relationship to NOT STAY IN, and maybe have an idea of the ones to STAY in... in the future...
> 
> Just a tip, if the sex does not knock your socks off, then that would be one to NOT stay in
> 
> I hope you can see that...


@BluesPower there are other reasons why a woman doesn't want to have sex with her man

1. He has had an affair
2. he blames her for his affair
3. He continually points out what she is not doing of he marriage
4. he is not safe partner when it comes to her emotions so she shuts down
5. he only ever considers what he can get from the marriage
6. It is always about his work, his hobbies, his sexual needs, nothing about hers or how he meets her needs

There's more but women are not the same as men. it is more of an emotional experience for us women. if my H is being a **** no way do i want to have sex with him.
OP seems to think he has no issues at all? I would love to hear her side of the story.


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## aine

Ss01 said:


> Things are moving ahead, slowly.... I've written a $7500 check to her lawyer so we can at least get a conversation on the "separation agreement" moving ahead.
> She is planning on moving into a house that her friends owns (for rent - not with the friend) in the next week or so.
> The second home that we own is also closing for sale on July 15. I told her all of the proceeds from that (should be about $75k) that she can just keep, I don't want it.
> 
> I was texting her a bit the other day on some items with kids and asked her a bit about the talks she was having with her therapist. The therapist is the same one that we used for about 2 years in couples consoling.
> 
> I had asked her if I can stop down and talk to her.
> She didn't reply because she was out with friends.
> I sent her this message in the morning at one point.
> Her reply....though. I don't know if I should feel hurt, or vindicated, or angry, or sad for her? What a stew of emotions there.
> How do I interpret her reply? She feels its easier to talk to her good friends (who she rarely has seen until recently. I know this because I kept asking every few months: how is so-and-so, when can we all goto dinner or out together/etc/etc). So she feels able to be vulnerable(?) with her "good friends" but not with me, spouse for ~21 years, known her for about 25yrs, trying to actively engage in couples therapy and I improved so much that even my kids commented on how "easier I was at home and less stressed I appeared to be".
> 
> What planet am I on?
> 
> 
> View attachment 69886


The divorce planet, this is what you wanted so proceed. Why would you think your STBXW would go away quietly? That is what you wanted right? Honestly, i wonder whether you know what planet you are on also? You like to think of yourself as a reasonable fellow it seems.


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## Ss01

aine said:


> Why are you getting so hung up on what your STBXW thinks anymore. You are pretty clear you want to move ahead, appointing lawyers etc.
> I suggest she could not be vulnerable with you because your heart was not safe with her. When a spouse commits adultery (in your case EA) then the adulterous spouse is no longer a safe partner. You painted a picture of you being the victim, which imo says a lot about you. No concern for the damage it did to your wife, you lost the privilege of her vulnerability.
> The marriage is never the same, giving a part of yourself to another woman which should have been reserved for your wife placed you in the 'not to be fully trusted' zone. You seem very naive for a man who has been married for so many years and says you have done so much work on yourself. It seems you haven't learned much at all.
> it is possible for her to be vulnerable but only with those she knows she can trust fully. No rocket science there. And why should you be 'hurt' 'offended' etc, it is what it is.
> Let your wife go.



I'm only hung up on the fact that she wants about a 1million dollar settlement which is about 50pct more than any reasonable calculation based on the state law and that she wants to be paid for 11 yrs. I'd sign a 600k settlement today, for 8yrs, which is more inline with the state calculations. That's not enough apparently....I want this over but I'm not spending a million dollars on her.


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## Ss01

aine said:


> The divorce planet, this is what you wanted so proceed. Why would you think your STBXW would go away quietly? That is what you wanted right? Honestly, i wonder whether you know what planet you are on also? You like to think of yourself as a reasonable fellow it seems.


I guess following the online calculations for alimony payment, based on NYS law, is unreasonable ... Gimme a break


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> Well! I should have know!
> We were never able to, the few times it was needed, come to an agreement or work through anything difficult in our marriage.
> 
> In order to attempt to come up with a separation plan, I wrote up a 4 page document in March.
> Saying essentially
> 1) i would pay for every single bill she has for the next 2 years - i mean every ****ing one - even groceries!
> 2) i would give her 70% of the retirement account
> 3) i would pay her $2500/mo for 4 years.
> 4) the balance of the sale of the second house (which just sold) of about $50k
> Total tab here would be about $500k
> I refined this is a bit and did three more revisions on it. The only response I heard was that the "law says more like 8-11 years for payments".
> So I said, ok.... what if we do 8 years then at $2500/mo
> No reply....
> 
> I then, on my own, paid a retainer for her lawyer in June which was $7500.
> 
> To which, I have gotten four replies from the lawyer asking for
> 1. $5800/mo for 13 years
> 2. the entire retirement account
> 3. the entire proceeds for the 2nd house
> 4. and that I pay 70% of the child care costs (granted my kids will be 16 years old next week)
> Total tab here, by her calculations, $1.1 million dollars! And that is just for items 1,2,3 ... let alone how much more item #4 would cost
> 
> So my lawyer replied back to her lawyer and her.
> The state calculations show $2500/mo for alimony and about $2100/mo for child support.
> I've already saved up $250k between two 529 plans for the kids for when they are 19,20,21. New York state requires child support until kids are 21.
> So we said, lets do $4600/mo for 2 years, then $2500/mo for 6 years. The years 19,20,21 of child support will come from the 529 plans
> I said I would give her 90% of the retirement account
> the proceeds fromt he 2nd house as well
> Total tab here, is about $670k
> 
> The responded with a No. After 3 rounds of that ******, their offer for settlement remained in the $950k-$1million dollar range.
> Essentially 50% above the state calculations and for a term of 11 years. In theory, the state term could be between 8-11 years since we were married for 22 years.
> 
> She told my kids, which my daughter told me today, that "what difference does it make, your dad will just keep working and make more money, i should say i want $2million"
> 
> I filed for a contested divorce on Monday august 10th.
> 
> Unfucking real. Its like a magnification of my marriage. I could never meet the right "bar" or threshold. How the hell Is my offer at $670k which is inline with the state calculations an unfair offer.
> She has a masters degree in physical therapy and a valid physical therapy license. She is 47 years old. She can easily get a job making $100k a year with benefits.
> 
> I've been asking her for the last 2 months to meet and talk about all of this together. Kept blowing me off.
> I even asked her about it last thursday the 6th. And she said she "didn't want to argue" What the ****!
> 
> She has now selected us on the road of maximum conflict. I am so mad about this.


You know, I think we all told you this would happen. 

She is a *****, you never should have stayed married to her.

Go to trial, what have you got to loose. 

When this is over please tell us you will never be the "NIce Guy" again. 

Get mean, get tough and stay that way...


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## GC1234

Hey, thanks for sharing with us. This is a tough one for me to advise, because it seems you really love your wife, and are torn. If what you've written is accurate, I think you've tried everything. The therapy, offering to open up your marriage, etc. You seem to be very understanding and open-minded. She seems to be in a funk, and she's not making much effort to get out of it. So, to me, her offer to stay together and suddenly "understand" what you wanted seems suspect to me. She probably doesn't want the hassle of a divorce perhaps; it's hard to say. But I would say, give it a month to a three month time frame (don't tell her this obviously); if you think that she is not changing still, even though you put separation on the table, then you have your answer.


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## Ss01

aine said:


> I agree it is a bit harsh. I think your wife loved you but you weren't as perfect as you paint here. You committed adultery and still expected her to get with your program, which everyone on here seems to be conveniently ignoring and making generalizations about her not wanting sex with you etc. I am sure you told her many times that she wasn't doing it for you, the EA was her fault etc. The death knell to your marriage I am sure of it.
> You had at least some more years after that as she had every right to divorce you then. You decided to divorce, what else do you want from her? Perhaps you are scared you are making a mistake and you will discover the problem wasn't your wife after all. That's a risk you have to take, you started that ball rolling already. it is too late to go back, the damage is done


Actually what I said was that me spending time sharing my emotions with another woman was totally wrong and that I never want to do that again. I was weak I didn't want to face my fears with my relationship which is why I didn't talk to her about it directly. I didn't want to risk the rejection and losing her. So it was easier to take a weaker path with leaning emotionally on another woman. That's actually closer to what I told her.. which is why I began my own personal therapy in 2015 so I didn't go down a road like that ever again. It's completely wrong I only did it because I was weak person at the time. II never blamed her for that and I took the blame for multiple times in therapy. That was my fault I did that and no one else's.


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## Openminded

I’m not at all surprised your wife is demanding more. Actually, I would have been surprised if she didn’t. If you are footing the entire bill for a contested divorce, she doesn’t care what it costs because, as she said, you can always make more money. If it wasn’t a bitter divorce before, it will be now. And the end result is that after a trial she will only likely get what the calculator says she should get. But she will have made you spend a lot of money to get there so in her eyes she will have won and you will have lost. Shaking my head.


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## Mr.Married

Boy you really fell for that blow job. 
Everyone was trying to tell you to wake up from the start.
You still think she loves you ......LOL!!


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## Ss01

Openminded said:


> I’m not at all surprised your wife is demanding more. Actually, I would have been surprised if she didn’t. If you are footing the entire bill for a contested divorce, she doesn’t care what it costs because, as she said, you can always make more money. If it wasn’t a bitter divorce before, it will be now. And the end result is that after a trial she will only likely get what the calculator says she should get. But she will have made you spend a lot of money to get there so in her eyes she will have won and you will have lost. Shaking my head.



Spot on - which is so dumb. I could spend $50k in legal and still come out $400-$500k ahead. so dumb


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## Ss01

Mr.Married said:


> Boy you really fell for that blow job.
> Everyone was trying to tell you to wake up from the start.
> You still think she loves you ......LOL!!


hahaha


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## Mr.Married

Ss01 said:


> hahaha


Dude...go to court. Fight for yourself for once.


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## Ss01

Mr.Married said:


> Dude...go to court. Fight for yourself for once.


i filed on august 10th and she was served yesterday. i'm happy to settle at the state calculated amounts at any time.


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## Mr.Married

Ss01 said:


> i filed on august 10th and she was served yesterday. i'm happy to settle at the state calculated amounts at any time.


She won’t see it that way....be prepared


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## Openminded

I’ve seen ridiculous amounts of money spent on contested divorces and when the dust settles the contesting party only gets what the calculator says.

Was she not expecting you to file?


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## Openminded

Openminded said:


> She doesn’t want a divorce so if she thinks that’s even a remote possibility she’s going to tell you whatever she thinks she needs to for that not to happen. And it will likely be temporary change because that’s easy. Real, permanent change is hard and that’s another story.


This is what I said four months ago when you first posted. If she still opposes the divorce then she’ll likely drag this out — stall and delay — and make it as miserable, and costly, for you as she possibly can. Sometimes that’s used to make the one who filed change their mind and stay.


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## BluesPower

Mr.Married said:


> She won’t see it that way....be prepared


Now you know this is a waste of time here don't you. 

He cannot help but be "Nice"...


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## Ss01

BluesPower said:


> Now you know this is a waste of time here don't you.
> 
> He cannot help but be "Nice"...


hah hah - that ship has sailed...she is going to need a binding resolution from the United Nations Security Counsel for me to pay anywhere near what she is dreaming


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## BluesPower

Ss01 said:


> hah hah - that ship has sailed...she is going to need a binding resolution from the United Nations Security Counsel for me to pay anywhere near what she is dreaming


I hope that is true... 

I think you took too much, put up with too much, and basically abused yourself by staying in this marriage. 

I am hoping you can be good to yourself at some point if you life...


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## aine

Ss01 said:


> I'm only hung up on the fact that she wants about a 1million dollar settlement which is about 50pct more than any reasonable calculation based on the state law and that she wants to be paid for 11 yrs. I'd sign a 600k settlement today, for 8yrs, which is more inline with the state calculations. That's not enough apparently....I want this over but I'm not spending a million dollars on her.


Take it to court, you will probably win based on your very reasonable settlement of $600k.


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## aine

Ss01 said:


> Actually what I said was that me spending time sharing my emotions with another woman was totally wrong and that I never want to do that again. I was weak I didn't want to face my fears with my relationship which is why I didn't talk to her about it directly. I didn't want to risk the rejection and losing her. So it was easier to take a weaker path with leaning emotionally on another woman. That's actually closer to what I told her.. which is why I began my own personal therapy in 2015 so I didn't go down a road like that ever again. It's completely wrong I only did it because I was weak person at the time. II never blamed her for that and I took the blame for multiple times in therapy. That was my fault I did that and no one else's.


I understand, we are all human and make mistakes that is so very true and you were man enough to see that and do something about it.
However, my point is that some mistakes cannot be undone, it is like hammering nails into a lovely old teak chair, then you end up removing them, realizing you hammered them into the wrong place. You may remove them, do it right the second time but the nail marks are still there. Sometimes there is just no going back, so you have to move forward to try and reach a settlement that is agreeable to both of you. There is really no point in doing a postmortem on your already gone marriage. Why waste your energy on that?


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## Ss01

Well....things here are seemingly getting more nonsense. I voluntarily paid a $7500 retainer in June for a lawyer for her. In hope that we could then all come to a separation agreement, since she would have some representation to help guide her.


Without details...I'll say that has slid radically offtrack from nearly day 1.


I've also asked her many times, that I've learned a few things I could have improved on...for me I think it's mostly fine tuning? So I've asked her, is there anything that she recognizes from her viewpoint that she contributed to this situation. Anything that she is reflecting on and she could have done better at.


No reply to any of these questions and I've asked many times.


I had a preliminary Skype conference last week judge, no changes in any of the situation... Maintain status quo. Status quo is that I pay for everything so that's no news to me.


I guess there's lots to do legally over the next 90 days before we all meet again.


What an amazing hassle


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## Ss01

Update:so this is going well....

I wrote her a proposal in march 2020, essentially saying that I would pay for every single Bill she had for the next 2 years.. And I would continue to pay her $2,500 a month for 8 years. And I would pay for all of the kids expenses in the meantime. Essentially she would have zero bills for 2 years while getting paid $2,500 a month. If you got a full-time job during that time, I would still pay the $2,500 a month to help build her retirement account. I also offer to split 50% of all the current assets with her and give her 70% of my retirement account.

That proposal went nowhere. I tried for months, I paid for an attorney for her hoping that we could get to a fair and reasonable conclusion.

I'm now spent 78,000 on legal fees, including her attorney my attorney and two business evaluators to determine the value of my business. Mind you my business is just me.

I've offered to give her a hundred percent of my retirement account. I offered her $640,000 in August of 2020. I filed for divorce shortly thereafter when she turned down that offer.

She's essentially seeking $70,000 a year in alimony for 13 years. No child support, but she wants me to pay 80% of all of the child expenses anyway. Including horse riding and college. Mind you I've saved up almost $200,000 for college already. And she wants 50% split now of all the assets.

The alimony and the duration is well beyond the state calculations. that's where I came up with my numbers of 2,500 a month. 

So this whole, dead bedroom thing and breaking up with your spouse - I suppose it's worth it, Im not sure how any of the stuff gets resolved and it's amazingly frustrating.

She can make $100,000 a year as a physical therapist. I wanted her to do that so I could stop doing what I was doing and take a position that was so much less stress. That never occurred and now she wants the beyond calculated possible dollar values for the beyond maximum time.

What a freaking circus. We have a compliance conference/settlement conference this friday. Then we see I guess if we can do an alternative dispute resolution process or go to trial.

something to be said about there's no need for a man to be married anymore..... Or that statement which is something to the effect of 'you don't know your spouse until you divorce them'

Disappearing or suicide were my option a and b ideas. I've chosen option C which is divorce....proving to be much harder.... unbelievable


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## 3Xnocharm

Don’t agree to anything beyond what the state mandates. Period. I hope you pulled all previous offers off the table. This is insanity. I’m sorry you are still dealing with this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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