# It feels like he's having an affair, but I don't think that's what's going on....I really don't. I'm not sure how to proceed...



## AlmostEmptyNester

The change seems to coincide with the pandemic, so I am sure there is an element of stress of the unknown and instability that this pandemic has brought. I understand we tend to take our stress out on those closest to us, I am guilty of this and get snippy and irritable when it's not warranted.
Coming up on 24 years married, the last few years have felt pretty good relationship-wise. We've made new friends and have had a full social life filled with trips and vacations etc. Recently husband is distant, can't engage him in a conversation, is irritable and responds with one or two words or simply doesn't respond to me. No longer is interested in being intimate, hasn't initiated any type of physical connection (not even a side hug) in almost two full months, probably longer. He does a lot of his own scheduling and finds a reason to travel more days during the week for work. He used to talk about me traveling with him, that hasn't come up at all lately. He used to talk about missing me, and text me to connect personally (not just business or family stuff.) Can't remember the last time he asked me how my day was, or how my book was, or how my walk went, or really anything personal. My attempts at drawing him in or showing an interest are met with little to no response, or more likely irritation. Sometimes he is just down right mean, his tone of voice or what he says showing clearly that I am a nuisance. I understand he wants/needs space, and the more he pulls away, the more I want to fix it, feel a connection, but the more I try, the more irritated he gets. I'm trying hard to give him space to work through whatever is eating at him. He's withdrawn from other things as well, not wanting to participate in most of the socializing our friends have been doing online. (there really hasn't been much in person due to the pandemic, but we were invited to go see friends later this month and without asking me, he turned them down.)

I asked him point blank the other day if he was mad at me or tired of me. I called him on his behavior and let him know that the way he was talking/not talking to me made it seem as if I had done something wrong or needed to fix something. He refused to answer any of my direct questions, just looked at me and said there was nothing I could do to fix it, and he refused to talk about it any further, he literally said "we are not having this discussion" and told me that I just needed to go about my business.

He was raised by a mother who showed her displeasure by withholding affection and he parents or has parented that way, having a hard time separating his emotions when he's disappointed or hurt or trying to correct what he thinks is bad behavior or choices (all the kids are mostly grown) so when he does it to me, it's really hard NOT to read that as displeasure on his part and something I am somehow supposed to fix.

Anyway, if I take him at face value, and there is nothing I can do, despite how it feels, how long do I carry on like this before the space he is requesting is something we can't come back from? How long will we just be roommates, occasionally crossing paths or sharing a meal. Letting that continue for too long can't be good, right? On the other hand, to ignore his request and keep striving for a connection is to show him disrespect, and I really don't want to do that. Besides, he just shuts down and/or tells me I am hovering.

Anyone been through something similar or have any insight?
Thanks in advance,
AlmostEmptyNester


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## frusdil

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I asked him point blank the other day if he was mad at me or tired of me. I called him on his behavior and let him know that the way he was talking/not talking to me made it seem as if I had done something wrong or needed to fix something. He refused to answer any of my direct questions, just looked at me and said there was nothing I could do to fix it, and he refused to talk about it any further, he literally said *"we are not having this discussion" and told me that I just needed to go about my business.*


I'm sorry but he's a married man, when you're married you don't get to behave like this and then dismiss your spouse's justified concerns when they try to raise it with you.

It could be anything - he could be cheating, he could be depressed, he could have a gambling problem...the biggest problem of all though, is that until he tells you, there's not much you can do. Other than go underground and start investigating without telling him.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

frusdil said:


> I'm sorry but he's a married man, when you're married you don't get to behave like this and then dismiss your spouse's justified concerns when they try to raise it with you.
> 
> It could be anything - he could be cheating, he could be depressed, he could have a gambling problem...the biggest problem of all though, is that until he tells you, there's not much you can do. Other than go underground and start investigating without telling him.


I can't force him to share, maybe he doesn't know what the problem is?

It is incredibly frustrating to know something is wrong and be kept at arm's length. It is very difficult not to feel hurt and depressed, and then resentful and angry, and then I go on the fun rollercoaster again. If he's polite to me, bordering on nice, I get all hopeful, only to be crushed later when he gets irritated at me, for simply existing. This is so far from our typical dynamic, I am so baffled. In late January we took a great trip together with friends, completed a goal we set together, had some great intimate moments that didn't feel routine. THINGS WERE GOOD, like GOOD GOOD. How did we get here? Four months ago and now we are here.


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## frusdil

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I can't force him to share, maybe he doesn't know what the problem is?


No, you can't. But he knows whether he's having an affair or not. He knows if he has a gambling problem. Depression he may not know, but the others he does.

Have you asked him outright about an affair?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

frusdil said:


> Have you asked him outright about an affair?


Yes, I asked him about 6 weeks ago if he was having an affair, more for the shock value and to emphasize just how odd his behavior was, because I really didn't think he was having one, I felt that his behavior was so unlike him. 

He said no, or at least he didn't say yes.


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## Prodigal

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I don't think you should outright ask him if he's having an affair. Chances are, if he IS having an affair, he'll deny it. Sadly, this sounds like an affair to me. What can you do? Well, to begin with, I'd start checking his phone. After that, I'd suggest a VAR for his car. You have to get evidence that he is seeing someone else before confronting him. Have you considered asking a mod to transfer your thread to "Coping With Infidelity"? 

I'm not saying that is for-sure what is going on, but lots of folks on TAM with experience in this area can advise you on how to proceed in finding out what is going on if it's suspected infidelity. Unfortunately, that's what it sounds like to me.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I don't think you should outright ask him if he's having an affair. Chances are, if he IS having an affair, he'll deny it. Sadly, this sounds like an affair to me. What can you do? Well, to begin with, I'd start checking his phone. After that, I'd suggest a VAR for his car. You have to get evidence that he is seeing someone else before confronting him. Have you considered asking a mod to transfer your thread to "Coping With Infidelity"?
> 
> I'm not saying that is for-sure what is going on, but lots of folks on TAM with experience in this area can advise you on how to proceed in finding out what is going on if it's suspected infidelity. Unfortunately, that's what it sounds like to me.



I asked him about an affair about 6 weeks ago, so it's too late for that.
What is VAR?

He has a work vehicle and he travels all the time for work, if he's not where he's supposed to be, I would know it because I also work for the same company. He's also meeting up with other employees, so if he were bringing someone along, that would be pretty awkward & obvious. Although he did de-select the sharing "my location" last week and I received a notice, so I asked him if he meant to do that. Apparently he did mean to do that, and then went back in and re-instated it. However, the other day I was curious about his location and he wasn't showing up...so he must have gone back and changed it again. I KNOW IT SEEMS SO suspicious and falls right in line with an affair, but I am still leaning towards NOT. 

I could simply show up at one of his hotel stays. I know where he's making the reservations when he goes out of town, and he knows I can access that info.


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## aine

@AlmostEmptyNester Are you guys on lockdown stuck at home or is he off working?

It could be a number of things

1. Worry over his job or finances (now with Covid many companies affected) and the future.
2. He has got himself involved in an affair EA or PA or was in one and with lock down is irritated as he doesn't have the same freedom as before, changing the phone tracing, etc is all very suspicious.
However the switch in behavior is worrying.

You have to stop asking him anything or begging for his attention. Eyes open, mouth shut. If necessary document his behavior and the odd things he says. Keep an eye on his coming and going. Do the 180 on him and back off, see how he responds. Stop doing things for him or being so available. Try and live your life without him in the picture, he has made it clear he does not want to be involved, then don't involve him.
Put a VAR (voice activated recorder) in hiswork vehicle, tape it under the seat with strong double back tape and one in the home office if he has one. You do not have enough evidence at this stage so wait until you find some.

If you and your friends are all close, would anyone in your group know what is going on with him. Can you confide in anyone?

What kind of work does he do?
How old are your children?
Do you work or is he the sole breadwinner?

Yes you could show up at his hotel stays but be careful. it might be better to do surveillance or hire a PI to do it for you.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester Are you guys on lockdown stuck at home or is he off working?
> 
> It could be a number of things
> 
> 1. Worry over his job or finances (now with Covid many companies affected) and the future.


Thank you for your input & explanation. While I am going to do my best to go about my business and quit involving him in my daily life and give him space, I'm just not there with the affair. I would be more inclined to think he's been diagnosed with some awful disease and he's mad at me because he visualizes a future where he's not in the picture (dead) and I've moved on with someone else. THAT BEHAVIOR would be just like him, an affair would be really really wild. 

We have a small business, owned together, we've worked together almost our entire marriage. I have tried, when the opportunity presented itself, to NOT work together, but he said the company needed my help and he said he feels more at ease knowing that I know details, he trusts me.

While he is the main breadwinner, I also work, we have been true partners. Our lives are so intertwined logistically speaking. I would prefer not to go into too much detail about our lives for the sake of staying somewhat anonymous, however we have 4 children, two together, two from his first marriage, ranging in age between 31-20.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester Are you guys on lockdown stuck at home or is he off working?
> 
> Yes you could show up at his hotel stays but be careful. it might be better to do surveillance or hire a PI to do it for you.


Forgot to add, we never really went on lockdown, our company does essential work.


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## Openminded

He’s the only one who knows whether or not he’s having an affair (hopefully he isn’t) but just keep your eyes open and your mouth closed. Don’t dismiss the possibility but don’t continue to ask because cheaters lie and some lie very, very well.

Unlikely people cheat. The truth is that you never know what someone is capable of. If he is, sooner or later he could slip up. But plenty of cheaters never are caught. It took years for me to catch my husband and I could have just as easily have missed the subtle clues that finally confirmed it. That’s true for many.

There may be other reasons for his behavior. Keep looking.


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## oldtruck

can you hide a GPS in his work car,?

hide a VAR in the house where he takes his calls, hide a VAR in his
personal car.

check phone bill for any new numbers that shows an increase in calls
since his behavior changed. clue to who his AP is.


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## Girl_power

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I can't force him to share, maybe he doesn't know what the problem is?
> 
> It is incredibly frustrating to know something is wrong and be kept at arm's length. It is very difficult not to feel hurt and depressed, and then resentful and angry, and then I go on the fun rollercoaster again. If he's polite to me, bordering on nice, I get all hopeful, only to be crushed later when he gets irritated at me, for simply existing. This is so far from our typical dynamic, I am so baffled. In late January we took a great trip together with friends, completed a goal we set together, had some great intimate moments that didn't feel routine. THINGS WERE GOOD, like GOOD GOOD. How did we get here? Four months ago and now we are here.


Wow this sounds emotionally exhausting. I am so sorry. No one deserves this.


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## lucy999

That your husband seems dismissive and annoyed by you all of a sudden, then turning off the phone GPS and MEANING TO, turning it back on,then off again,the increased traveling, and especially that he didn't say no when you asked him if he was having an affair are all red flags that he might be indeed having an affair. 

Maybe it's not physical--maybe it's emotional. When a long-ago live-in boyfriend of mine was cheating on me, he all of a sudden was irritated by my mere presence, found fault with the most innocuous things, went out with his "friends" more, and liked to pick nonsensical arguments with me. It was truly odd behavior. One minute we were so happy. 24 hours later he was a changed man and not for the better. Guess what? He was cheating on me with a nurse he hung out with at a work party.

I'm not saying your husband is cheating. What I'm saying is you're being mighty naive to discount that and not consider it along with all the other things. He could be having some medical issues, sure. Let's hope not! Let's hope this is just maybe a touch of situational depression due to the state of our world today.

Someone else mentioned hiring a private investigator. I second that idea. In the meantime, take a look at your cell phone logs and see if theres a number you don't recognize that comes up alot.

Regardless of what's happening, your husband needs to stop treating you like crap. Don't stand for it. I would stop giving him any creature comforts-no laundry, no meals. Let him fend for himself. He's not deserving of your comfort or respect.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Girl_power said:


> Wow this sounds emotionally exhausting. I am so sorry. No one deserves this.


Thank you, it is exhausting and I find myself having a really hard time thinking of regular life and focusing at work. AND when I think about that, I get angry. LOL.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I'm not saying your husband is cheating. What I'm saying is you're being mighty naive to discount that and not consider it along with all the other things. He could be having some medical issues, sure. Let's hope not! Let's hope this is just maybe a touch of situational depression due to the state of our world today.
> ...
> Regardless of what's happening, your husband needs to stop treating you like crap. Don't stand for it. I would stop giving him any creature comforts-no laundry, no meals. Let him fend for himself. He's not deserving of your comfort or respect.


I know I sound naïve, I know I do. I re-read what I have written and I think If It were someone else's post, I would be thinking that poor lady is in denial. LOL. I get it. I talked with a close friend today, actually a few. One has known us over 12 years and agrees that she just can't see him having an affair, he's got (or had) integrity and standards for himself. Of course, the world has gone crazy now, so who knows how easy it might be for someone to say F-it and abandon long-held values? 

This space and distance definitely opens things up for an affair if it continues on (again, assuming he's not already)

I'm psyching myself up for appearing as if I'm great, I'm good, I'm confident, I'm attractive, I've got places to go and things to do and friends to see. THE ONLY PROBLEM is this freakin' pandemic. If I do go places, where the hell am I going to go? Hardly anything is open, how am I going to take up a new hobby, or mysteriously have places to go? Even if I can't figure out what to do, I'll go do something, and I'll be upbeat, and look nice, and be mysterious. I hate that I have to play a stupid game, but I feel like I need to. SO STUPID to be playing games at my age, but I know confidence is attractive. Sitting around feeling sorry for myself, even if I don't say anything, gives off the wrong vibe for sure. He told me to go about my business, so that's exactly what I plan on doing.


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## Openminded

Be careful of relying on what friends and family say. No one really knows what someone else will do. Hopefully, you won’t have to live it but I did. Everyone who knew my husband was absolutely positive he would never cheat because he was so wonderful in every way, blah, blah, blah. Wrong. He did cheat and he wasn’t the first or the last “wonderful” person to see what he could get away with. Don’t ask him again because he’s not likely to tell you if he is but continue to be observant. And accept the fact that you may never know one way or the other what’s going on because sometimes you just don’t.


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## frusdil

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Although he did de-select the sharing "my location" last week and I received a notice, so I asked him if he meant to do that. Apparently he did mean to do that, and then went back in and re-instated it. However, the other day I was curious about his location and he wasn't showing up...so he must have gone back and changed it again.


Whoa! If I'd known that earlier my advice would have been completely different. That is a HUGE red flag honey. HUGE.

You need to go covert, VAR's (voice activated recorders) in his home office and his car. Check his emails, your phone logs, everything.


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## 3Xnocharm

Agree, SNOOP! Snoop as deep as you possibly can. Him turning off the location sharing is the biggest red flag here, above everything else! Most other things could be explained away by stress and/or depression. The location thing is key. 

Get a PI, have him followed. Get to the bottom of this. His refusal to discuss this with you is blatant disrespect to you as his partner, and cancels out his right to privacy. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AlmostEmptyNester

frusdil said:


> Whoa! If I'd known that earlier my advice would have been completely different. That is a HUGE red flag honey. HUGE.
> 
> You need to go covert, VAR's (voice activated recorders) in his home office and his car. Check his emails, your phone logs, everything.


It is a red flag, I agree. We have spent a lot of time in our relationship dealing with the fallout of his first marriage (she cheated) and him having a hard time trusting me while he was busy traveling and working, even though I have been nothing but transparent. So for him to pull the plug on the location sharing is like a real slap in the face. I'm thinking to myself, "you've made such a big deal about this in the past, why would you even go there?" This is a 180 from the man I know, who would surely want to be able to locate me, but when I went to reciprocate the sharing (which I already thought was on both ways to begin with) he told me that he did not need my location.

So there isn't any subtlety, there is no sneaking, there is outright being mean. He's not pretending everything is OK. 

And I'm not at the VAR yet. I'm just not. I'm not sure I want to hear conversations not meant for me. I know I say things about others and would be horrified and mortified to know they had heard things not meant for them to hear. So if he's NOT cheating, I would be violating a very sacred part of our marriage. I'm not there.

I would like to attempt a real conversation with him before it all comes to that.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

3Xnocharm said:


> Agree, SNOOP! Snoop as deep as you possibly can. Him turning off the location sharing is the biggest red flag here, above everything else! His refusal to discuss this with you is blatant disrespect to you as his partner, and cancels out his right to privacy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, he is being hurtful, mean, and disrespectful, but I am not giving up yet on having a real discussion and him opening up. Some people just deal with things internally, and he is typically one of those types. I've been patient so far, surely I'll be hitting my wall soon and demand a talk. There's always the possibility that maybe I've messed up really bad and don't even realize it. Maybe he's been trying to tell me some of his needs aren't being met, and he's fed up and tired of trying but doesn't want to argue. I just don't know yet, I am not some saint. Let's be honest here and realistic.

Not ready to snoop with the VAR, that feels like a really ugly violation at this point that I am not willing to do.


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## Anastasia6

you say he hasn't initiated sex. Have you? What was his reaction?

Have you checked phone records for the same number over and over?

I certainly seems like he is cheating.


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## Anastasia6

You need to get like 30 posts so you can go read 20 years thread. She was just like you except his behavior wasn't as in your face. She found a long term affair from the husband she never would have suspected and trusted. She was floored when she found out.


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## Anastasia6

And while I do not think this is the case in your marriage. I'd be remiss if I didn't say you might be right about the needs. I am assuming a lot but you mentioned the trip and making progress in January. Has he had the not enough sex, not enthusiastic enough sex, talk with you? Because you can wonder over the sex in marriage forum to find man after man lamenting about not enough sex or not enthusiastic partners of 20 years. They are ready to leave them or so they say and they get advice from places like this to do the 180 and leave. The 180 is pretty much ignore them, don't do anything for them and focus on yourself. So if it isn't an affair could it be he's more into sex then you think?


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## 3Xnocharm

I wasn’t referring to using a VAR specifically. But you need to get into his phone. His computer. His email. His social media. I really feel like you need to have him followed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> You need to get like 30 posts so you can go read 20 years thread. She was just like you except his behavior wasn't as in your face. She found a long term affair from the husband she never would have suspected and trusted. She was floored when she found out.


I've been reading that thread, thank you.


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## Anastasia6

wait not there are alot of 20 year threads. Talk About Marriage I am actually referring to the title found a condom in my bag by poster 20yr. The


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> And while I do not think this is the case in your marriage. I'd be remiss if I didn't say you might be right about the needs. I am assuming a lot but you mentioned the trip and making progress in January. Has he had the not enough sex, not enthusiastic enough sex, talk with you? Because you can wonder over the sex in marriage forum to find man after man lamenting about not enough sex or not enthusiastic partners of 20 years. They are ready to leave them or so they say and they get advice from places like this to do the 180 and leave. The 180 is pretty much ignore them, don't do anything for them and focus on yourself. So if it isn't an affair could it be he's more into sex then you think?



My libido has been low and his has been high, and I have not made sex a priority, there is room for improvement as far as frequency and ways to spice things up. It doesn't help that I'm nearing the "change" and seem to be having some form of a period 3 weeks a month practically.

That being said, I did initiate recently and he participated. No cuddling, no extra effort on his part to do any foreplay, which is unlike him. He used to compliment me and tell me how desirable I was, haven't received a compliment....well, since maybe January. However, I thought things were going better in that department, at least from a perspective of spicing things up, maybe just too slowly for him.


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## Anastasia6

Well while that is a possibility. I mean seriously browse the sex in marriage section....

I never understood how important sex was to some men until I found this site. I mean it goes way past the societal jokes that we've heard all our lives. Apparantly it is more important than any other aspect of the relationship. For some men. 

However. My gut he's cheating. Maybe visiting escorts or such or someone from work.

When he travels would he normally see the same people? work the same comparny?


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## Anastasia6

Oh and if the bleeding thing has been going on for a while and your OB can't tell you when it might stop. Get an Ablation the best thing I ever did. And I'd do it again even if I knew the bleeding was only going to be 3 month or so.


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## lucy999

Everyone has their own timetable on these weighty matters. I respect that you aren't yet at the snooping stage. I do think you're in a huge amount of denial, but we can't make you do anything. You have to be comfortable with your decisions.

I will say this--when someone who is cheating refuses their spouse sex, or is lackluster or less than enthusiastic about it, which isn't usually the norm, it's because they feel like they're cheating on their affair partner. Screwy logic, I know. But it's a real thing.


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## MattMatt

@AlmostEmptyNester Could he be feeling depressed?


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## Blondilocks

Anastasia6 said:


> You need to get like 30 posts so you can go read 20 years thread. She was just like you except his behavior wasn't as in your face. She found a long term affair from the husband she never would have suspected and trusted. She was floored when she found out.


30 posts is no longer a requirement of the site.


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## MattMatt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> My libido has been low and his has been high, and I have not made sex a priority, there is room for improvement as far as frequency and ways to spice things up. It doesn't help that I'm nearing the "change" and seem to be having some form of a period 3 weeks a month practically.
> 
> That being said, I did initiate recently and he participated. No cuddling, no extra effort on his part to do any foreplay, which is unlike him. He used to compliment me and tell me how desirable I was, haven't received a compliment....well, since maybe January. However, I thought things were going better in that department, at least from a perspective of spicing things up, maybe just too slowly for him.


I can move your thread if you want?


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## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you, it is exhausting and I find myself having a really hard time thinking of regular life and focusing at work. AND when I think about that, I get angry. LOL.


Sounds to me like your gut is screaming at you but you are too scared to listen.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Time to stop being naive, OP.


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## sunsetmist

You ask for help, but do not really want to consider that he might be cheating. You have a tendency to want to take blame yourself. Cheating is 100% on the person who chose to cheat--there are other alternatives. 

The virus has restricted many and cut down on the easy extra curricular activities of the past whatever they are. You note that he doesn't answer--cheers for his refusing to lie. HA! There are many situations where one spouse has stayed in the marriage until the nest IS empty and then they leave. Could this be him?

What exactly is your plan?


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## 2&out

As you can see 95% here on TAM are going to say he is cheating. Both my wives were sure I was or cheated on them but God and I both know I did not. Maybe he doesn't feel you have treated him as a priority in your life and desired and has now given up trying. He has decided to just not care as much anymore.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

MattMatt said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester Could he be feeling depressed?


Yes, most definitely he's depressed to some degree, aren't most of us dealing with "extra" right now during the new reality of the pandemic and riots etc? He exhibits some other symptoms of depression, drinking more, going to be really early, not as interested in his hobbies or tv shows etc. He's also admitted to being overwhelmed and exhausted from maintaining all his relatively new friendships he's developed over the past 3 years. I am not the only one he's become distant with, but I am certainly one of the few he's being irritable and mean to.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

MattMatt said:


> I can move your thread if you want?


Where would you move it to?


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## Anastasia6

They were talking about the private area. Because I talked about the private area they thought I was talking about making your thread private but I was talking about getting you access to the link I posted. Found a condom in husbands bag by 20yr. You don't need to move it unless you think husband might find it and you care.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

sunsetmist said:


> You ask for help, but do not really want to consider that he might be cheating. You have a tendency to want to take blame yourself. Cheating is 100% on the person who chose to cheat--there are other alternatives.
> 
> The virus has restricted many and cut down on the easy extra curricular activities of the past whatever they are. You note that he doesn't answer--cheers for his refusing to lie. HA! There are many situations where one spouse has stayed in the marriage until the nest IS empty and then they leave. Could this be him?
> 
> What exactly is your plan?


It's not that I don't want to consider if he is cheating, I've already considered that and decided I want to explore other possibilities before I go down that road. I can share lots of information and details on this site, but that still doesn't paint a full picture of this man and how he copes with life, his personality, etc. etc. etc.

It is hard to make the leap in 4 short months from him being "needy" (I hate to use such an unflattering word) and adoring towards me to him having an affair and just waiting for the right minute to leave, I do not believe that is him. He has a close friend who waited till the kids were grown and still had crappy relationships with his adult kids and advised my husband if he had to do it over again he would not have stayed in a miserable unhappy marriage till the nest was empty.

I do not have a plan. I was trying to think of one earlier today, no ideas. If he's cheating with call girls, random strangers, having an affair, I don't know if I would want to try and work things out or not. I'm just being honest. I know when I was younger I would have kicked his butt out the door, but now I'm not so sure. We have built a life together.

And there are two people in a marriage, so I can take some blame for having my own faults and contributing to our issues, that does not excuse any poor behavior on his part, just being humble and admitting I too make bad choices and am no saint.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> They were talking about the private area. Because I talked about the private area they thought I was talking about making your thread private but I was talking about getting you access to the link I posted. Found a condom in husbands bag by 20yr. You don't need to move it unless you think husband might find it and you care.


I was on page 60ish of that condom in the bag thread when I saw your post about it....I was/am mid story. I haven't finished it yet. Definitely eye opening.

As for moving this somewhere with more privacy, I'm not against that. *He would care that I was sharing personal details, but then maybe he should be willing to freakin' talk to me so I'm not desperately looking for advice online in forums. LOL.

He is out of town this week for work, so I decided that I was not going to be shut down from expressing my concern and emailed him a somewhat short email stating that I tried to give him space, but things have only gotten worse, his whole nonsense with the location tracker off/on/off again etc is sending really mixed signals and I deserve to know what's going on because my mind is going to really dark places and I am hurting and in a bad spot.

Who knows if he will answer, but at least I expressed myself and put it out there that YES I do have some boundaries and expectations.


----------



## MattMatt

The Private section.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Everyone has their own timetable on these weighty matters. I respect that you aren't yet at the snooping stage. I do think you're in a huge amount of denial, but we can't make you do anything. You have to be comfortable with your decisions.
> 
> I will say this--when someone who is cheating refuses their spouse sex, or is lackluster or less than enthusiastic about it, which isn't usually the norm, it's because they feel like they're cheating on their affair partner. Screwy logic, I know. But it's a real thing.



Yes...maybe I am in denial. I said that if I read this thread and it were someone else I would say the same thing. 
Also, it makes perfect sense/logic on the whole cheating on the possible affair, but it might also make sense that he's not putting any effort into any of his relationships right now because he's tapped out, overwhelmed, exhausted and sex is usually something he puts effort into. There's no fuel in the tank and he's at a breaking point, and if he breaks he's not sure how to pick up the pieces.....There ARE other explanations.


----------



## Anastasia6

Well there is some things you can do. Check credit card and bank statements. Most women require money of some kind. Either eating out or straight up cash or a hotel room.

Check the phone bill, itemized. Is there a repeat phone number over and over for phone or text.

Talking to him is good. 

Yes marriage problems are almost never one sided but cheating is. You are not responsible for his cheating if he is cheating.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

2&out said:


> As you can see 95% here on TAM are going to say he is cheating. Both my wives were sure I was or cheated on them but God and I both know I did not. Maybe he doesn't feel you have treated him as a priority in your life and desired and has now given up trying. He has decided to just not care as much anymore.


Thank you for your input. Can you share a little bit more about what you went through and how it manifested in "symptoms" ???


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

MattMatt said:


> The Private section.


I am not opposed to it being moved to the private section, thank you for offering.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Well there is some things you can do. Check credit card and bank statements. Most women require money of some kind. Either eating out or straight up cash or a hotel room.
> 
> Check the phone bill, itemized. Is there a repeat phone number over and over for phone or text.
> 
> Talking to him is good.
> 
> Yes marriage problems are almost never one sided but cheating is. You are not responsible for his cheating if he is cheating.



I was going to check phone records last night until I logged on to our account and was reminded that he has a company phone and I would have to ask our business partners for records...

I also tried to log in to one of his computers (he's got hobbies, computers is one of them) however I could not even get past the lock screen and I was afraid to try too many passwords for fear it would lock out and then he would know I had been snooping. 

Remember, I'm reluctant at the moment to do too much snooping because I'm just not there yet and it feels like I am violating his trust if I do that. I still want to give him the opportunity to communicate with me. (and I have given him another opportunity, I think I mentioned already that I emailed him, since in person and texting has gotten me no where)


----------



## Openminded

He‘s the only one who knows what’s really going on with him and hopefully it will turn out to be something simple and easily fixed. But don’t ever just blindly trust and assume someone isn’t the type to cheat. You can end up really burned.


----------



## Anastasia6

So don't snoop. Simply tell him you'd like access to his phone and computer. As a spouse this is not some grand request. If he asks why. Say I am trying to figure out why you are being so distant and mean to me. As someone who has been cheated on before I would think you would have no problem making sure our relationship is open and honest.

Perhaps this will also trigger a conversation. But don't let conversation stop you from looking.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> So don't snoop. Simply tell him you'd like access to his phone and computer. As a spouse this is not some grand request. If he asks why. Say I am trying to figure out why you are being so distant and mean to me. As someone who has been cheated on before I would think you would have no problem making sure our relationship is open and honest.
> 
> Perhaps this will also trigger a conversation. But don't let conversation stop you from looking.


GREAT suggestion, thank you!


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Yes...maybe I am in denial. I said that if I read this thread and it were someone else I would say the same thing.
> Also, it makes perfect sense/logic on the whole cheating on the possible affair, but it might also make sense that he's not putting any effort into any of his relationships right now because he's tapped out, overwhelmed, exhausted and sex is usually something he puts effort into. There's no fuel in the tank and he's at a breaking point, and if he breaks he's not sure how to pick up the pieces.....There ARE other explanations.


All of this is 100% true. I don't disagree with you.

I think I missed the part where you emailed him. 

Look, no one here gets any sort of pleasure in any of this--suggesting to you that your husband might be cheating. I really hope he's not. You seem to be a lovely person and I'd hate for that to happen to you.

If he is,PLEASE know we won't say I told you so. We will embrace you and support you and help you.

What I'd like to know is, what if your email doesn't work? What if doing your own thing doesn't work? What if no conversations are had? What then?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> If he is,PLEASE know we won't say I told you so. We will embrace you and support you and help you.
> 
> What I'd like to know is, what if your email doesn't work? What if doing your own thing doesn't work? What if no conversations are had? What then?



I appreciate your reassuring and kind words. I am not feeling anything but support here, I came for advise and insight and I am reading how everyone responds on other threads. And I can handle a few "I told you so" It wouldn't change anything, but people like to be right. LOL

And to answer your question, I have no idea what I will do if we don't have a conversation and things don't improve.

I would be OK with things improving and delaying the conversation, but so far none of that is happening.

I like Anastasia's idea to simply ask to see his phone and computer. That might be a good starting point if my email generates nothing productive. Beyond that, I tend to do over the top things when I've reached my limit. I say I'm not patient, but maybe I am with some things, and once all the patience and understanding have worn away, I'm done. So maybe I'll ask him to move out and suggest we sell the house(s) and downsize. No point trying to make a marriage work if one person is refusing to work on it and has checked out emotionally. Of course, then I'll have to figure out if I want to try and maintain a working relationship or ask to be bought out of the business we own. 

Just sort of brainstorming I guess.


----------



## Anastasia6

So his business trips and the business computers are also yours. There is absolutely no reason why he should hide things from you.
Who does the books?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> So his business trips and the business computers are also yours. There is absolutely no reason why he should hide things from you.
> Who does the books?


I do not do the books, one of the other owners takes care of that. I am equal owner to my husband but neither of us owns the majority in the business, not even combined.


----------



## Anastasia6

So again finances. If he had another woman he would spend money. Does he carry lots of cash? have you glanced at the credit cards?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> So again finances. If he had another woman he would spend money. Does he carry lots of cash? have you glanced at the credit cards?


He has his own credit cards that he manages and I never see the statements. We also have joint credit cards. I am and have always been the money manager of the family, all income goes into joint accounts. I pay all the bills with the exception of the few credit cards that he manages. He's got plenty of opportunity to purchase whatever and I would never know. When it comes time for him to pay his credit cards, he just reminds me and I transfer money so he can do it. This has been going on now for about five years and has solved a lot of arguing. He does not typically carry a lot of cash. He's terrible about leaving receipts all over the place, so I have been looking more closely at them, nothing odd.


----------



## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I still want to give him the opportunity to communicate with me.


He's so lucky to have you.



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I like Anastasia's idea to simply ask to see his phone and computer.


I'm afraid (before you ask straight-forward for the credentials)...maybe he might delete anything remotely? Any unwanted pictures/email/data that you should not see? 
I heard there are apps where you can control your own computer from another computer and work remotely (even if nobody's using your home computer). So, he might delete anything beforehand....once he knows what you're looking for.

Just saying. 

Snooping would give you the chance to get information without giving him the chance to go "underground" or be precautions.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> He's so lucky to have you.
> 
> Just saying.
> 
> Snooping would give you the chance to get information without giving him the chance to go "underground" or be precautions.


Thank you.
Yes, he is lucky to have me. 

I'm pretty sure by now if he were to be worried about anything incriminating, he's probably already taken precautions. He's no dummy, he knows he's acting poorly and I'm getting tired of it.

If the opportunity presents itself I may have a go at his phone, but I don't know the passcode, I can only guess at it.

Occasionally he stumbles off to bed and forgets it, or when he's showering I may have a few minutes to take a look at it.


----------



## Beach123

Well it sure seems like he’s cheating. So respond”as if” he is.

move the majority of money and assets into your name so he can’t access too much money to spend on his OW.

start making solid plans in case he is cheating. Make sure he knows you’re changing things up. When he asks why you can state in a confident manner that you’re unwilling to continue being married when he plans to treat you poorly and with holds info that could help the relationship.

he knows what’s wrong - the fact that he won’t communicate with you is completely unacceptable.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> he knows what’s wrong - the fact that he won’t communicate with you is completely unacceptable.



Yes, it's cruel.
He received my email and texted me that he assumed I would not want an email response...so maybe there will be some sort of discussion when he gets back to town.


----------



## Anastasia6

maybe. Or he may just continue to avoid it.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> maybe. Or he may just continue to avoid it.


RIGHT...believe it or not, I was so relieved that he texted me back with more than a two word answer and then disappointed realizing that meant he could stall longer. I told him he could email me if that was the only way he was willing to "talk".

I'm quite depressed & obsessed...I just don't understand why someone would continue to do something knowing how much it was hurting someone else. I told him in the email that the whole location sharing thing was a total slap in the face and that I was hurting and not in a good spot not knowing where we stand. BUT he's not a dumb guy, he knows what he's been doing is hurtful, I just spelled it out in a way that let him know I was reaching a point where this needs to be addressed.

I am so thankful for this forum where I can obsess...I really don't want to drive my friends crazy...


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> RIGHT...believe it or not, I was so relieved that he texted me back with more than a two word answer and then disappointed realizing that meant he could stall longer. I told him he could email me if that was the only way he was willing to "talk".
> 
> I'm quite depressed & obsessed...I just don't understand why someone would continue to do something knowing how much it was hurting someone else.


If you're not in counseling, now is the time to start. It could help you in setting boundaries as to what and what you don't find acceptable about his behavior. Frankly, I wouldn't accommodate him by saying he could email you if he wanted to "talk." You are in a bad situation, but you are willing to accept what doesn't sound acceptable.

There are people on here who have first-hand experience with infidelity. If, and when, you feel like moving your thread to the "Coping With Infidelity" forum, I think you would get a lot of good advice on how to proceed.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> If you're not in counseling, now is the time to start. It could help you in setting boundaries as to what and what you don't find acceptable about his behavior. Frankly, I wouldn't accommodate him by saying he could email you if he wanted to "talk." You are in a bad situation, but you are willing to accept what doesn't sound acceptable.
> 
> There are people on here who have first-hand experience with infidelity. If, and when, you feel like moving your thread to the "Coping With Infidelity" forum, I think you would get a lot of good advice on how to proceed.



Honestly, I have no idea what's going on and I'd rather get some info vs none, so yeah, I'm willing to accept an email if that's the only way he's comfortable sharing. However, I seriously doubt he's going to send me an email that's not work related. I'm just over here being desperate for answers and not overly concerned with which of his behaviors I find acceptable....NONE at the moment. LOL


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Whelp, I just tried opening up some communication via texting and was told not to push, but I continued in a round about way, told him I was really miserable and I would try my best to be patient, so perhaps we could talk in person on Saturday. So I reiterated my feelings, acknowledged his, and planted the thought of a "Deadline"

Guess we will see if that strategy works or not.

How in the world am I going to NOT obsess between now and then?


----------



## frusdil

I'd be up there in a frigging flash, to where he is. No way would I stand for this bs. He needs to **** or get off the pot, and he needs to do it NOW.

What he is doing is so damn cruel.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

frusdil said:


> I'd be up there in a frigging flash, to where he is. No way would I stand for this bs. He needs to **** or get off the pot, and he needs to do it NOW.
> 
> What he is doing is so damn cruel.



Yes it is.
I'm not sure why I'm not angrier. When I was younger I would have been. 
What on earth could be so difficult for him to discuss, right? Of course my mind is going to dark places.
Of course it could be infidelity. I'd definitely be ashamed to admit to that and watch my marriage fall apart.
It's going to stay at the dark places until I know, and then, maybe it will be even worse.
Gee. What happened to the woman earlier today who was determined to go out and about and do things and appear to be having a good time & mysterious, and playing a stupid game to appear more confident?
Wonder if I'll finder her and bring her back for his return. Maybe.


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Yes, it's cruel.
> He received my email and texted me that he assumed I would not want an email response...so maybe there will be some sort of discussion when he gets back to town.



He is simply buying more time and hedging his bets. Please plant that VAR when he is back and consider a PI. How far is he away from where you are? He may have been more open in an email response. I don't understand how you are putting up with this total lack of respect. He is a coward. I would have his clothes packed up for him when he gets back and ask him to leave. Then get a lawyer, maybe you should consider that now and a counsellor for yourself. You are being put on the backfoot here and it is time you took back some control. You are far too nice to him and he is taking full advantage.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> He is simply buying more time and hedging his bets. Please plant that VAR when he is back and consider a PI. How far is he away from where you are? He may have been more open in an email response. I don't understand how you are putting up with this total lack of respect. He is a coward. I would have his clothes packed up for him when he gets back and ask him to leave. Then get a lawyer, maybe you should consider that now and a counsellor for yourself. You are being put on the backfoot here and it is time you took back some control. You are far too nice to him and he is taking full advantage.


I don't know why I'm not angrier, why I haven't told him off. 
I took vows, for better or worse, sickness and health. Clearly he's at the worse part, or perhaps the sick part. He's struggling, I'm trying to be compassionate to whatever demons he is dealing with. 
I think about how I would want to be treated if I were having some sort of crisis or meltdown. AND him having an affair or being unfaithful would be a meltdown of sorts. AND if I find that it what has happened, I will have to do some soul searching to determine how I want to proceed.
Lots of people are being affected in big ways by this pandemic, and if that is part of the equation, I should show some compassion since we are all dealing with something we have never had to before.


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I don't know why I'm not angrier, why I haven't told him off.
> I took vows, for better or worse, sickness and health. Clearly he's at the worse part, or perhaps the sick part. He's struggling, I'm trying to be compassionate to whatever demons he is dealing with.
> I think about how I would want to be treated if I were having some sort of crisis or meltdown. AND him having an affair or being unfaithful would be a meltdown of sorts. AND if I find that it what has happened, I will have to do some soul searching to determine how I want to proceed.
> Lots of people are being affected in big ways by this pandemic, and if that is part of the equation, I should show some compassion since we are all dealing with something we have never had to before.


Of course, whatever you think is best in your circumstances. However, regardless of current scenario with Covid, job security etc, there is absolutely no excuse for him treating you so cruelly. This is a selfish thing to do. You have to have some reserve and not simply wear your heart on your sleeve.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> . This is a selfish thing to do. You have to have some reserve and not simply wear your heart on your sleeve.


I understand. I have a friend struggling with her marriage, going to counseling, trying to put things back together and I remember being shocked that she wasn't angrier, that she didn't just kick his ass out. She always seemed to play that role in her relationship, to be compassionate and all I could think was that I was certainly NOT like that...and yet here I am being just like that, this is not typical behavior for me either. I would normally demand better treatment. Maybe I've changed and just haven't noticed it and he doesn't like the softer me? Who the hell knows.


----------



## Beach123

So he gets to wait while he knows perfectly well it making you more than miserable to wait... ya, I wouldn’t waste one more minute on that level of disrespect and disconnect!

it is definitely mean AND completely cruel!

I would seriously tell him to NEVER come home until he can be kind and loving!

why are you bending over backwards so that he can treat you even MORE terribly?

he’s been disregarding you and disrespectful!

Why are you settling for that kind of disrespect? Tell him off. He needs to get help or get lost!


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> So he gets to wait while he knows perfectly well it making you more than miserable to wait... ya, I wouldn’t waste one more minute on that level of disrespect and disconnect!


Yeah, it's mean, but I had an epiphany this morning and I think I might know what's going on, or at least partly. THIS explanation makes more sense to me vs. all the others, but I might make a list just to pass the time. Well a list would also help me think ahead in case he actually ever does tell me what the hell is going on.

When he declined to share locations on the phone, the only thing he said when I asked him "wouldn't he like mine in case he was worried something bad had happened to me" was that _that is what our daughter was for_. At the time it didn't make much sense because she's horrible about keeping her phone charged...but the more I contemplate (OK, I'm obsessing) the more that little gem of a comment makes sense in this context.

OK here goes, I'm wondering if he overheard a conversation I was having with our daughter (the context being about relationships since she's been dating a young man for 2 years) and we discussed him (well both actually) being needy. Needing attention, affection, etc. -- Both she and I have actually mentioned it to him, to his face that he is, and he has denied it, and the thing is that it's not a bad thing, it's just something to consider when you are going to spend your life with someone or think you are. Clearly I'm OK with it or I wouldn't have chosen my husband. In fact, clearly I need him to be needy. LOL. BUT instead of admitting that his feeling were really hurt, or coming to me for context and clarification, he sat and stewed on it and just got more hurt.

If you overheard the two people you most love in life (and this is me saying this based on his actions up until very recently) have a conversation that was unflattering or hurtful, wouldn't that have a big impact on you? You might withdraw and withhold affection, "I don't need anything" would be your inner dialogue. 

I can totally see that as an explanation for what's going on. He's the kind of guy who feels really deeply and has a hard time handling those deep emotions and being vulnerable, so instead of having a rational conversation, he reacts defensively, imagines things that aren't true, feels insecure etc. He might even be a little embarrassed that we think of him that way. Doesn't help that his first wife cheated on him.

***Of course, then I'm left wondering, does he have a VAR?


----------



## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> and we discussed him (well both actually) being needy. Needing attention, affection, etc. -- Both she and I have actually mentioned it to him, to his face that he is, and he has denied it, and the thing is that it's not a bad thing, it's just something to consider when you are going to spend your life with someone or think you are. Clearly I'm OK with it or I wouldn't have chosen my husband. In fact, clearly I need him to be needy. LOL. BUT instead of admitting that his feeling were really hurt, or coming to me for context and clarification, he sat and stewed on it and just got more hurt.


oh. I soooo hope this is the reason!!! 🙏🙏🙏🙏

From what you're saying, it makes sense. Is he an introvert? passive-aggressive?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> oh. I soooo hope this is the reason!!! 🙏🙏🙏🙏
> 
> From what you're saying, it makes sense. Is he an introvert? passive-aggressive?


He has phases he goes through where he is extroverted, but mostly he's an introvert and maintaining friendships eventually wears him out and exhausts him. So long-time friends have to get used to his cycles and realize he's only capable of so much. I am a people pleaser and more easy going, so I just go along with his phases. So he went through a party phase where we were throwing parties every month and then eventually that stopped. Recently it's been a phase of meeting new people through this social media group, and he threw himself into that...we've actually made some solid friendships.

He can be passive-aggressive, but usually it's more that he's not sure how to digest something, or he needs a while to think about it to determine how he really feels or really wants to react. I'm hot headed, so maybe he tends to weigh his options more before speaking because I can over-react and be difficult before I reach the point where I'm calm enough to really think things through. I have been much more mellow lately, thank goodness.


----------



## aine

Sounds like he may well have overheard your conversation but punishing you is not solving he problem is it? I hope this is the explanation. have you checked out all his new social media friends?


----------



## 2&out

For me what happened was I realized I was putting in a lot more efforts than my wife was and I lost interest and basically stopped trying. The effort just seemed to not be worth the reward anymore. It seemed to be about making her happy while being taken for granted and relegating my emotional and physical wants as something of secondary importance.

You've said that your sex relationship isn't and hasn't been especially exciting or important to you. I can bet he feels the same and likely more-so. You need to fix that. I suggest you make efforts to do so before pushing on about your emotional or other needs. I know that if I'm not in a good place sexually then my concerns for a spouse/partners emotional or other needs/wants diminishes - and as I've gotten older quicker and more.


----------



## Beach123

Why is he allowed to make a decision FOR you about the email? He shouldn’t assume about what YOU want.

tell him he can send that email over to you now.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I was going to check phone records last night until I logged on to our account and was reminded that he has a company phone and I would have to ask our business partners for records...
> 
> I also tried to log in to one of his computers (he's got hobbies, computers is one of them) however I could not even get past the lock screen and I was afraid to try too many passwords for fear it would lock out and then he would know I had been snooping.


Boy, this guy is a real snake. He's REALLY starting to sound a hell of a lot like the cheating husband in that long post "I found condoms in my husband's briefcase" (I can't remember the exact title).

He's got a business phone so he can do what he wants and *you* can't see the records, he's got credits cards in his own name that you have NO CLUE what he's using them for, he has his computer locked down tighter than Fort Knox - for no reason at all.

He's covered all the angles, including turning off his GPS then turning it back on when he was done doing whatever he was.....'doing.'

But you're not at the snooping stage yet, you say. I don't think that's due to you being naive because even a 12 year old could see the red flags flying all over the place. I'm guessing you're not ready to snoop simply due to fear of what you KNOW you're going to find.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

2&out said:


> I suggest you make efforts to do so before pushing on about your emotional or other needs.


Thank you for sharing.
Has something I've written here indicated that I'm going to push on about my needs?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> Sounds like he may well have overheard your conversation but punishing you is not solving he problem is it? I hope this is the explanation. have you checked out all his new social media friends?


I did check them, I know them all, very doubtful he's involved with any of them even emotionally


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

She'sStillGotIt said:


> fear of what you KNOW you're going to find.


 Yep. I'm afraid.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Why is he allowed to make a decision FOR you about the email? He shouldn’t assume about what YOU want.
> 
> tell him he can send that email over to you now.



I appreciate your input...wish I could get all fired up like this!


----------



## 2&out

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you for sharing.
> Has something I've written here indicated that I'm going to push on about my needs?


No not really, but I thought you said you've had at least some discussion and he responded with "don't push". I think you will need to push some but carefully and not the "I demand now" attitude some here are sharing. I know if done to me I would turn my back and the chips fall where they fall. I'm not going to be ordered around and told how "I should be acting" like I'm a little kid. If your not going to respect me and try to work with how I respond/handle this then I guess we don't have much to talk about.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

OK, just for fun and because I've got no self control, even though I told myself to stay OFF the computer today.
Here's a list (the speculation list) maybe we should pick our favorites and see who's right?
Based on popular opinion #1 will be Infidelity

#1. Infidelity either emotionally or physically or both
#2. Addiction (to what I'm not sure) alcohol is already a part of our lives
#3. Dissatisfaction with the relationship/sex and being fed up & tired of trying
#4. I did or said something hurtful and don't realize the impact it had
#5. Bad news from the doctor and he's mad imagining the life I'll have in the future without him
#6. I called out another man's name in my dreams (I don't think I've ever done this, but what the hey)
#7. He's depressed and can't handle the pandemic
#8. He's tired of all our new friends and maintaining the friendships and doesn't know how to tell me
#9. He snooped on me and didn't like some of the topics I chose to talk about with my friends
#10. I meddled in something I should have known better (clearly I didn't know better)
#11. He's outgrowing me/I'm getting old
#12. He's bored with me


OK, help me out guys, what haven't I thought of?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

2&out said:


> not the "I demand now" attitude some here are sharing. I know if done to me I would turn my back and the chips fall where they fall. I'm not going to be ordered around and told how "I should be acting" like I'm a little kid. If your not going to respect me and try to work with how I respond/handle this then I guess we don't have much to talk about.


I hear you loud and clear.
What's ironic is that there are times he does just that to me, talks to me like I'm one of the kids.
Oh well, that's not important now, what's important is getting him to communicate so that I know what the heck is going on and I know how to proceed.

I want my marriage to work, I'm in this for the long haul, not going to go down without a fight unless he's done something really horrible and I am willing to acknowledge things I may have done to contribute, like I've said before, I'm no saint.


----------



## Beach123

It could be anything... but the fact that he’s not telling you shows complete disrespect.


----------



## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> OK, just for fun and because I've got no self control, even though I told myself to stay OFF the computer today.
> Here's a list (the speculation list) maybe we should pick our favorites and see who's right?
> Based on popular opinion #1 will be Infidelity
> 
> #1. Infidelity either emotionally or physically or both
> #2. Addiction (to what I'm not sure) alcohol is already a part of our lives
> #3. Dissatisfaction with the relationship/sex and being fed up & tired of trying
> #4. I did or said something hurtful and don't realize the impact it had
> #5. Bad news from the doctor and he's mad imagining the life I'll have in the future without him
> #6. I called out another man's name in my dreams (I don't think I've ever done this, but what the hey)
> #7. He's depressed and can't handle the pandemic
> #8. He's tired of all our new friends and maintaining the friendships and doesn't know how to tell me
> #9. He snooped on me and didn't like some of the topics I chose to talk about with my friends
> #10. I meddled in something I should have known better (clearly I didn't know better)
> #11. He's outgrowing me/I'm getting old
> #12. He's bored with me
> 
> 
> OK, help me out guys, what haven't I thought of?


OK but only if you promise not to be one of the many posters that start this and then just disappear. You must come back and tell us who wins 

In the order I think most likely
1, 3, 4, 7, 12, 2, 8, 9, 5,, 6, 10

Of course there could be combinations.
Like he's unsatisfied with sex so he seeks out an affair. Of course most cheaters will rewrite history and be unhappy in the past even if they weren't.


----------



## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I hear you loud and clear.
> What's ironic is that there are times he does just that to me, talks to me like I'm one of the kids.
> Oh well, that's not important now, what's important is getting him to communicate so that I know what the heck is going on and I know how to proceed.
> 
> I want my marriage to work, I'm in this for the long haul, not going to go down without a fight unless he's done something really horrible and I am willing to acknowledge things I may have done to contribute, like I've said before, I'm no saint.


So let's say it turns out to be something innocuous like #8. It is still a good time to examine your "I'm not saint" look at what his needs are and are they being met. Same with your needs and are they being met. I think it is always good to occasionally examine your relationship and see what you can do better. Builds better futures.


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## Beach123

You need to regain YOUR power within this relationship.

any person who is willing to sacrifice their power within any relationship - to the point of wanting that relationship no matter how badly the spouse treats them - shows the union unhealthy and out of balance.

you want this to work so badly that you are willing to allow him to treat you terribly and not share his truth with you... at the cost of keeping the marriage.

how about if you approach him with wanting to know all of what he’s feeling and understanding there are SOME things you should find unacceptable for the union?

if you want the marriage to continue - I would suggest you outline some guidelines that he agree to if this marriage is to continue to move forward.

and same thought for you... YOU should be willing to consider sex more often if he wants that - agree on a compromise you both can find satisfactory. Ignoring his needs isn’t healthy either.

you both need to get capable of seeing things from each other’s perspective if the marriage is to grow.
The place it is in isn’t healthy or happy... looks like it is driven by mistrust and disrespect.

have you considered counseling?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> OK but only if you promise not to be one of the many posters that start this and then just disappear. You must come back and tell us who wins
> 
> In the order I think most likely
> 1, 3, 4, 7, 12, 2, 8, 9, 5,, 6, 10
> 
> Of course there could be combinations.
> Like he's unsatisfied with sex so he seeks out an affair. Of course most cheaters will rewrite history and be unhappy in the past even if they weren't.


I promise I will tell what I discover. 
Also, I thought about that too, the possibility of combinations is highly likely!!!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> So let's say it turns out to be something innocuous like #8. It is still a good time to examine your "I'm not saint" look at what his needs are and are they being met. Same with your needs and are they being met. I think it is always good to occasionally examine your relationship and see what you can do better. Builds better futures.


Yes I wholeheartedly agree, there is definitely room for improvement. We have been so busy putting other things first, like work and friends, both of us, that we have not spent much energy on the enrichment of our relationship.


----------



## lucy999

Your newfound possible explanation certainly sounds feasible. If my husband and his daughter said that about me and I overheard (or anything negative about me for that matter) I'd be crushed. I know I have faults but I don't need to overhear my loved talk ones about them without me in the room. That's really hurtful.

But here's the deal. Your husband doesn't get to sit in The Victim Chair for as long as he has. He's getting mighty comfy and that's not cool. He needs to be the adult he is and talk about it with you. 

I mean, how long does he think he can go on like this (if this is indeed the reason)? If he's teaching you a lesson and showing you that he's not needy, he's pouting and doing it all wrong. He's being incredibly immature about it. Sure, he can feel sad and lick his wounds for a bit, but for this long? No.

If you ever get to the bottom of this, his behavior on that front needs to be addressed in a really serious way.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> how about if you approach him with wanting to know all of what he’s feeling and understanding there are SOME things you should find unacceptable for the union?
> 
> if you want the marriage to continue - I would suggest you outline some guidelines that he agree to if this marriage is to continue to move forward.
> 
> and same thought for you... YOU should be willing to consider sex more often if he wants that - agree on a compromise you both can find satisfactory. Ignoring his needs isn’t healthy either.
> 
> you both need to get capable of seeing things from each other’s perspective if the marriage is to grow.
> The place it is in isn’t healthy or happy... looks like it is driven by mistrust and disrespect.
> 
> have you considered counseling?


I had planned on just listening to what he had to say (assuming he shares) and not being quick to make any hasty remarks. I keep telling myself I will need to hold my tongue and let him talk instead of being busy reacting. Depending on what he says, I had also planned on asking if he wants to work on our marriage, and I will have to decide if I want to as well. And then we will need to decide what that looks like. Considering how much he has resisted talking about things up till now, I would be surprised if our discussion got that far.

The way he is acting right now feels like he's ready to just throw it all away. That's why I got on here to begin with, and it's such a 180 from how things usually are. I thought we had been enjoying each other's company and I thought things were improving in the intimacy department, I thought we were in a good place, yet it's just deteriorated since March. You know, since that damn pandemic started. 

I do realize that if I have set his needs on the backburner, NOW would be a good time to fix that and hopefully he will give me an opportunity.

I do not know what my needs are beyond what's happening now, I don't typically spend a lot of time being unhappy. Obviously I want him to be nice to me. I'd like him to show some affection, he used to, so it's not an old complaint, it's a new development. I'm not the one who's upset or discontent in the marriage other than what's going on right now. Not that he was perfect, but we were good, I thought we were in a good spot.

I don't see him agreeing to counseling.


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## Anastasia6

Well you are right that you need to listen and try not to defend. Also at the end say thank you for sharing. I'd like to think of a thoughtful response as this is a lot to take in. Can we sit tomorrow night and talk again? or something like that. You can ask clarifying questions.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> But here's the deal. Your husband doesn't get to sit in The Victim Chair for as long as he has. He's getting mighty comfy and that's not cool. He needs to be the adult he is and talk about it with you.
> 
> I mean, how long does he think he can go on like this (if this is indeed the reason)? If he's teaching you a lesson and showing you that he's not needy, he's pouting and doing it all wrong. He's being incredibly immature about it. Sure, he can feel sad and lick his wounds for a bit, but for this long? No.
> 
> If you ever get to the bottom of this, his behavior on that front needs to be addressed in a really serious way.


Yes, he is being immature, regardless of what the issue is, the way he is dealing with it is totally 100% unnecessary and cruel. I feel like he's punishing me for something yet tells me there's nothing I can do to fix it. He literally said that when I tried to get him to open up, he said there was nothing I could do to fix it.

So he acknowledged something is going on, he implied that it was an issue of his, however it could just as easily be something he thinks I caused but am incapable of fixing (let's say it's low libido) or that he has decided it's TOO LATE.

None of that matters, you are correct, he still should not be acting the way he is. He should address it straight forward. Man up. However, I'm thinking his reluctance stems from my typical reaction, which is over reacting, and he's avoiding the drama of that?!? Don't get me wrong, I'm not a hysterical witch, but I do get worked up when we get in a real argument, although we haven't had one of those in ages.

So whatever he has to say, he probably thinks I'm going to get really upset. Wonder if he's mad at me for what my reaction _might_ be. There's food for thought.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Well you are right that you need to listen and try not to defend. Also at the end say thank you for sharing. I'd like to think of a thoughtful response as this is a lot to take in. Can we sit tomorrow night and talk again? or something like that. You can ask clarifying questions.


I'm going to have to write this down on a notepad, this is such a great response. I don't think well on my feet.


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## Anastasia6

Me either. I'm a passionate, reactive person. So I am just saying I'd have to have a plan on how to exit without attacking if I wanted it to be productive.
You have to be careful. You have to respond enough that he doesn't feel like you are dismissing his concern but leave it open enough that you can truly sit and think.

You couldn't fix an affair or low libido. You can however make deliberate choices to enjoy an activity like sex with your husband. 

BTW I"m just actively responding to you to help you make it to Saturday. I don't have to if you want. I do know about obsession.


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## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> what's important is getting him to communicate so that I know what the heck is going on


Ironic. He's in the wrong, and he's not talking to you! He's gone 180 as if you're the one who did anything wrong.
Whatever you might have done, I don't think it's close to anything that makes you deserve to be treated like this. Feels like you're communicating according to _his _conditions and that's not fair!


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## Bluesclues

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I'm going to have to write this down on a notepad, this is such a great response. I don't think well on my feet.


Requesting a time for follow up questions the next day is great advice. You might want to record that initial talk on your phone to refer back to. Actively listening is hard. I know I miss things when I am trying not to immediately respond and trying to control my facial expressions at the same time (I should not play poker!)


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## 2&out

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I had planned on just listening to what he had to say (assuming he shares) and not being quick to make any hasty remarks. I keep telling myself I will need to hold my tongue and let him talk instead of being busy reacting. Depending on what he says, I had also planned on asking if he wants to work on our marriage, and I will have to decide if I want to as well. And then we will need to decide what that looks like. Considering how much he has resisted talking about things up till now, I would be surprised if our discussion got that far.
> 
> The way he is acting right now feels like he's ready to just throw it all away. That's why I got on here to begin with, and it's such a 180 from how things usually are. I thought we had been enjoying each other's company and I thought things were improving in the intimacy department, I thought we were in a good place, yet it's just deteriorated since March. You know, since that damn pandemic started.
> 
> I do realize that if I have set his needs on the backburner, NOW would be a good time to fix that and hopefully he will give me an opportunity.
> 
> I do not know what my needs are beyond what's happening now, I don't typically spend a lot of time being unhappy. Obviously I want him to be nice to me. I'd like him to show some affection, he used to, so it's not an old complaint, it's a new development. I'm not the one who's upset or discontent in the marriage other than what's going on right now. Not that he was perfect, but we were good, I thought we were in a good spot.
> 
> I don't see him agreeing to counseling.


Last I'll probably say for a bit. I think U are handling this well. 

All of us have periods in life of is this what I hoped for/want ? He may be going thru 1. I advise some patience and careful discussions. Going off on each other will not and never helps. He may (and my limited information interpretation) need some mental space right now.

You have known him a long time. You say he is a good man. I think U should believe in that still and not let your mind and this site convince U he is lying/hiding/cheating and assume the worst. Yes it is possible. Some of us guys shut down a bit and reduce "sharing" when we are conflicted and things aren't "right" / as we would like. I do not think his protecting of himself / information is necessarily to hide anything from U. We have our ego's and "Man want" / desire to "be a man" and have a say in our life path. For me respect is a big thing. A lecture on how to be a husband IMHO would be a very bad idea right now.

I wish U the best of luck the next few days and week. Be calm, tell him U care, and LISTEN.


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## frusdil

2&out said:


> No not really, but I thought you said you've had at least some discussion and he responded with "don't push". I think you will need to push some but carefully and not the "I demand now" attitude some here are sharing. I know if done to me I would turn my back and the chips fall where they fall. I'm not going to be ordered around and told how "I should be acting" like I'm a little kid. If your not going to respect me and try to work with how I respond/handle this then I guess we don't have much to talk about.


How the hell are they supposed to work it out, when he won't tell her what the hell is wrong?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Me either. I'm a passionate, reactive person. So I am just saying I'd have to have a plan on how to exit without attacking if I wanted it to be productive.
> 
> 
> BTW I"m just actively responding to you to help you make it to Saturday. I don't have to if you want. I do know about obsession.


I appreciate this sooo much. I need all the help I can get to make it to Saturday. LOL
I have new developments from today, one of them freaks me out but the others not as much, oddly. I am a mixed bag.

Ok so today we did some texting, some of it was work, most of it was personal. We both have Aunts/Uncles with health issues, so there was that. Then he was informing me about "an appointment" he had Monday. Like who even talks like that, you usually tell someone, I have a doctor's appointment, or I'm meeting with the accountant, or I had to make an appointment to go to the bank (stupid pandemic). So, since he left it so mysterious, I asked him, was he seeing the doctor? No. He was going to look at some equipment. OK, so I asked, oh, a potential customer? He said No. So then I asked him if this was the thing he told me about before that he wanted to buy with his bonus, He said No. So I said to him why are you being so mysterious, this is like pulling teeth (yes, I was getting irritated) So then he got irritated, told me it was a guy selling some stuff and then added, "Do I have permission to go?"
UGH. 
Later this evening he texts me, "so can I have my bonus?"
And I said, of course, why not? (we had already discussed the whole bonus thing this weekend)
And he says, you were wanting to know why and I just wanted to make sure I didn't need to ask permission.
UGH
So maybe this whole thing is some sort of weird power play? Maybe he feels powerless or out of control and that's why he's being such an ass.

The one thing that does have me freaked out is the fact that his hotel room info is not on the website like all the others this week. I am hopeful that it will generate in the morning. If not, then it's possible he used a different hotel chain, but he almost always uses the same one. If it's not that, then the only place my mind goes is straight to here: He doesn't have a reservation because he's staying with another woman. He told me what city he is in, we don't know anyone in that city...
Since part of my job is to add his travel expenses to his jobs, I will have a legitimate reason to ask him tomorrow if tonight's reservation doesn't show up.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

frusdil said:


> How the hell are they supposed to work it out, when he won't tell her what the hell is wrong?


I spoke to some good friends of ours this evening and they said a couple things that stuck out in my mind.
#1. Put my foot down on Saturday if he doesn't want to talk, insist
#2. Maybe, even though I've told him I'm miserable, since I haven't really acted like it to his face, he's not quite aware how upset I am. (I have been trying to give him his space to work things out)


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## aine

2&out said:


> No not really, but I thought you said you've had at least some discussion and he responded with "don't push". I think you will need to push some but carefully and not the "I demand now" attitude some here are sharing. I know if done to me I would turn my back and the chips fall where they fall. I'm not going to be ordered around and told how "I should be acting" like I'm a little kid. If your not going to respect me and try to work with how I respond/handle this then I guess we don't have much to talk about.


Seriously, have you actually read her post and how he’s been treating her, with the silent treatment and all the passive aggressive ********! That is no way for any grown ass man to treat his wife or deal with whatever his problem with her is. He is downright disrespectful if not cruel. If he acts like a petulant teenager then he should be treated like one, and let the chips fall where they may. There’s 2 people in the marriage not just him and his self centred ass!


AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I'm going to have to write this down on a notepad, this is such a great response. I don't think well on my feet.



i would record the conversation on my phone so I could go back and listen to everything so to be clear what he is getting at. Then delete it.


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## Anastasia6

Wow well it certainly seems like there is some resentment over money there doesn't it?

So he has his own credit card that he can spend on whatever he wants but still has resentment?

I do the balance the budget at our house and hubby knows he needs to check with me for any large expenses (for us that's a couple hundred I'm sure each couple would be different) However he sometimes figures out ways to go to town on the $75 to $100 purchases. I keep track of our credit card and let him know when we are getting a little high for the month. I've tried to see if he would like to take over since it is actually exhausting to try to let someone have everything they want while staying in a budget. Of course that is just monthly stuff and I also have the huge responsibility for retirement planning, long term planning, emergency planning, college finance, car, house..... as well.

He's not dumb he doesn't want to take it over. He is smart enough not to ***** about having to ask to spend certain amounts. Of course it helps that I don't have to tell him no too often.


----------



## aine

2&out said:


> Last I'll probably say for a bit. I think U are handling this well.
> 
> All of us have periods in life of is this what I hoped for/want ? He may be going thru 1. I advise some patience and careful discussions. Going off on each other will not and never helps. He may (and my limited information interpretation) need some mental space right now.
> 
> You have known him a long time. You say he is a good man. I think U should believe in that still and not let your mind and this site convince U he is lying/hiding/cheating and assume the worst. Yes it is possible. Some of us guys shut down a bit and reduce "sharing" when we are conflicted and things aren't "right" / as we would like. I do not think his protecting of himself / information is necessarily to hide anything from U. We have our ego's and "Man want" / desire to "be a man" and have a say in our life path. For me respect is a big thing. A lecture on how to be a husband IMHO would be a very bad idea right now.
> 
> I wish U the best of luck the next few days and week. Be calm, tell him U care, and LISTEN.


This is the approach for a man who is has been treating his wife decently and has some issues. He has been playing 'cloak and dagger' with her since March (over 3 months!). He does not deserve to have his ego assuaged. Just because he has a penis does not give him the right to have 'respect.' Respect has to be earned and he sure as hell is not earning it. I am sick of this mantra that the 'man must be respected, his ego is fragile, blah blah blah.' What about her heart? What about her needs and her 'desire to be a woman' to be 'loved and cherished.' The way you write is as if she must do all the running, why should she. He is in the wrong her and needs to be reminded that this is not all about him. I would not tolerate this ********. She is a much kinder and compassionate woman that I would be under these circumstances. He would find his stuff out on the road in boxes.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Wow well it certainly seems like there is some resentment over money there doesn't it?
> 
> So he has his own credit card that he can spend on whatever he wants but still has resentment?


I think the resentment is there, but it's not about the money. More about having to ask? Especially with me quizzing him about his mysterious appointment. IF there is no affair, then that falls right in line with the removing of the location tracker as well. She's not my Mom, she doesn't need to give me permission for every little thing. Although honestly I have no idea what that is stemming from, because I'm not like that. I am not controlling.

And yes, it gets exhausting trying to make sure everyone gets what they want and to still stay in the budget.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> i would record the conversation on my phone so I could go back and listen to everything so to be clear what he is getting at. Then delete it.


Is there a way to record and it not be obvious, I've never tried recording anything with my phone....I have an apple phone if you want to share tips! LOL


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## Anastasia6

BTW I've given this a little thought tonight. 

Monday is a lawyer. What he doesn't want to discuss over email. Divorce (maybe). That is about the only reason to be cagey about the meeting that falls in line with all the other info. 

People often times right before they leave get really pissy like as a way of separating.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> BTW I've given this a little thought tonight.
> 
> Monday is a lawyer. What he doesn't want to discuss over email. Divorce (maybe). That is about the only reason to be cagey about the meeting that falls in line with all the other info.
> 
> People often times right before they leave get really pissy like as a way of separating.


Well, I never even though of that. That sucks. 
Also, he could be getting really pissy as a way to convince himself I'm the bad guy, to reinforce some other conclusion he's come to. 

I don't like this road at all.


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## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Well, I never even though of that. That sucks.
> Also, he could be getting really pissy as a way to convince himself I'm the bad guy, to reinforce some other conclusion he's come to.
> 
> I don't like this road at all.


So sorry but I agree with @Anastasia6. Go on You tube and learn how to use your iphone to record, it is as simply as touching a button. Once recording the screen goes dark after a while so he wont know. Please have a good friend on standby as you may need the support later.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> So sorry but I agree with @Anastasia6. Go on You tube and learn how to use your iphone to record, it is as simply as touching a button. Once recording the screen goes dark after a while so he wont know. Please have a good friend on standby as you may need the support later.


WELL CRAP.  I've decided to go back through our text messages and see if I can pin point a solid changing point. I am soooo not prepared for this, I'm having anxiety just thinking about how all the things line up. 
I am not liking this one bit. 
I still have hope though it's a thin thread.


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## Beach123

I find it irritating and juvenile that he wouldn’t tell you who his meeting is with on Monday.

he’s playing games. And I would tell him to stop that - and learn how to communicate thoroughly and effectively if he plans to stay married.

maybe it is with a lawyer. If it is - you may want to start learning how to depend on yourself for your courage and strength.

either way - you need to figure out how to help yourself - from allowing him to disrespect you this way - his non communication level isn’t cutting it!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> you need to figure out how to help yourself - from allowing him to disrespect you this way - his non communication level isn’t cutting it!


I'm going to preface this with, I'm sorry for typing a book, but I think this is helping me work through my own thoughts, so if anyone has actually read ALL the words I've typed in this whole thread, I'm impressed. LOL

OK, so here's what I am finding so odd. Well his behavior at first I chalked up to the pandemic. His first signs of issues didn't seem to be with me, we were good, we didn't have the glaring communication issues that we are having now. He appeared to be loosing interest in his hobbies and online socializing with his friends. He did stop cuddling in bed though...he was/is the cuddler, I am not. BUT I lumped that into the other stuff. Once it continued for a while I started to be concerned and brought it up, but he didn't really have an explanation. I honestly thought this was related to dealing with the pandemic and lockdown, because he was having trouble with all of THAT. Gradually he began to be more distant from me, and then being mean and irritable in conversation. April was OK, but May is when it really started to be obvious. He seemed to bounce back when we had company for a long weekend (well that first night he was being pretty snarky with me to the point that our friends raised their eyebrows a few times) but then he simmered down and we had a good weekend. I'm not going to lie, I still thought a lot of it had to do with the lockdown and how things were so different in everyday life. This past two weeks have been the worst. He quit even asking me what I want to watch on TV - usually I tell him he can chose, but now there is no pretense that we are "spending the evening together" we just happen to both be home in the same room Even the text messages reflect all of this. FINALLY I couldn't ignore it any longer and "continue to give him space", this most definitely is not all about the pandemic.

The only thing he seems to still be considerate about is if he's going to the store, he still asks me if I need anything. LOL - how weird.

OK, now this is odd too, MY REACTION. I am typically not this patient. I would have had it out with him a lot sooner. So why haven't I? Where is my backbone? Why haven't I demanded better? Throughout the history of our marriage, I will be a diplomat with everyone else, but confront him. I am and have been solid enough in our relationship to not fear confrontation with him while I dread it with others. So why now have I let that go? I think it's because I thought he needed space to deal with all the crap, but maybe that was part of the problem. Maybe me giving him space was being taken as, I'm too busy to care? So maybe there were a lot of "tests" going on that I was oblivious to. For example, I'm going to quit cuddling with her, let's see if she picks up the slack. Or I'm tired of always initiating sex, let's see if she even notices. Or, wow, I've been an ass today, and yet she hasn't even stomped her foot and yelled at me. (yes, I am a foot stomper when my temper blows) AND so each time I fail a test, it just reinforces his unhappiness.

What does this reveal? That our communication sucks. Both ways. Making assumptions is dangerous. Complacency, on my part. Dissatisfaction on his. I hope to hell whatever he reveals to me this weekend is something we can come back from and have a chance to work on these things. We have made such a good team all these years, dealing with the crap life has to offer, and grabbing at the good stuff, and trying out some things we probably shouldn't have. He's been my rock through some very difficult times, and I've been his cheerleader pretty much forever, always encouraging him to try new things (except the motorcycle). He pushes me to be a better me, and I try to keep up as he changes hobbies and interests every year. 

Up till now I've been a mess and fearful and sad, but when I really think about it, if he has had an affair, even if it's an emotional one, I think to myself, how could he? After all the things we have been through, after all the things I have compromised on, or simply tried despite not really wanting to but knowing he did. After putting up with some pretty crappy/selfish behavior from him. After dedicating myself to our businesses. After being such a strong person to hold up him & his children...I'm a damn fine stepmother by the way. IF, IF he was willing to betray all of that, it's mind blowing. (and I'm not saying that I haven't been crappy, or selfish, or obstinate, or difficult sometimes, but it's a two way street) I have been a good partner, not perfect, but good. In some cases, really good. LOL


----------



## lucy999

His being cryptic is a bunch of ********. He is torturing you. And you reacting differently this time, not getting angry, is because you're very afraid. I'm angry for you! This is a bunch of crap. All of it.

I don't want to panic you but I have to ask--is his bonus enough to retain a lawyer? I don't need specifics.

If him asking for it is out of the ordinary, I'm wondering if he received counsel to toe the line re: business and marital assets.

ETA: I just re-read your text exchange with your husband. He's got it in writing--that he can have his bonus. Now I'll disclose right now it could be a hazard of the trade--Im NOT a lawyer but I do work in the legal field. So I very well could be thinking about this all wrong because my job definitely has biased my views.


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## lovelygirl

Could it be he needs to get checked for depression? 

We're giving him the benefit of the doubt and excluding the possibility that he's having an affair.



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> and I try to keep up as he changes hobbies and interests every year.


What zoodiac sign is he? This is just curiosity, not that it would help towards your problem. Is he a saggitarius? They are known for their unstable emotional state. I myself am one. I get easily bored with things and people after a while.


----------



## Anastasia6

Yeah. I thought about the got it in writing on his bonus now too.

But hey AEN (AlmostEmptyNester that's you)

I have thought of some other things. on a positive note.
Maybe Monday is a surprise like personal trainer he's going to get in shape.
Individual Counseling, he recognizes he's been a ****?
Aurthur Murray he's going to take you to dance lessons

On the other hand....
If you've read some of the sex threads here.... They will tell or have men who 'just give' up. Stop initiating, stop cuddling, stop doing whatever and see if they even notice or are they more relieved that they don't have to have sex with you at all. Then they will tell the men to do the 180 (which is to detach) and divorce.

Since you still want to be in this marriage, I hope that he isn't planning to divorce you but I fear that may be what you find tomorrow. 

If it isn't what he wants to talk about then you two should work on your communication styles. He is treating you poorly right now but I'm with you. I would like to know what is going on before I worry about telling him how bad his treatment is. We all go through cycles. But the cycle must come to an end.


----------



## Anastasia6

@AlmostEmptyNester you ok? You know I could be completely wrong don't you? Either way you will be alright.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

I appreciate everyone's input, I really do.
This evening he came back home from out of town.
We babysat the 3 year old grandkid, she's adorable & just the ice breaker we needed.
We haven't done that in months due to the damn pandemic, so it was nice.
He made dinner, he was pleasant towards me.
Not affectionate, but not mean.

Tomorrow will be interesting.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> Could it be he needs to get checked for depression?
> What zoodiac sign is he?


We are both Aries, although I am on the cusp with Taurus.


----------



## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Tomorrow will be interesting.


I'll be glued to the phone. Waiting for updates.

Was there any moment of awkwardness up until now? I mean, you both know you gotta talk it out... but in the meantime how do you think he was feeling/acting?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> I'll be glued to the phone. Waiting for updates.
> 
> Was there any moment of awkwardness up until now? I mean, you both know you gotta talk it out... but in the meantime how do you think he was feeling/acting?


Thank you for being here and showing an interest.

Wasn't it just killing you to know? ME TOO....I don't know how I slept.
So I went to bed hoping to have sex in the morning (it's one of the ways I try to connect when things aren't good, so sue me, I'm sure we could do lots of analytical crap about my childhood, but whatever) ...but knew I was going to have to initiate and was really fearing rejection.
I waited for him to wake up and he acted like he was going to jump up, so I told him I was hoping we could have sex, was he interested...he said NO he was good, but after a few moments appeared to change his mind...he waffled, then got up to have coffee.

So I followed suit, and sat next to him on the couch and calmly told him I needed to know what was going on. He again said that, "he didn't want to have this discussion" and I told him that I needed to know, that not knowing was driving me mad and that I deserved to know.

In a nutshell he said he doesn't want to be home, specifically with me or the kids or anybody. He wants to be alone. He's not bored. He's wanting to try something new, but when pressed he didn't open up about what that might be. He's not having any type of affair or infidelity with call girls etc, there is no old flame. He finds himself getting angry with me and he says he's not sure why, which is part of the reason he doesn't want to be home. I still suspect that he might know why, but won't tell me...but he said that he was reluctant to have this conversation because he knew it was going to be hurtful to me, and when I pressed him on it (meaning what was I doing or not doing that might have caused this) he said, "I'm not really sure, haven't I hurt you enough?"

He did say he had thought about separating. He is not interested in working on us, after I said that after 24 years, with a lot of great times, I was definitely interested in working on things. And then when I told him that this was going to be hard because I wouldn't know how to act around him, like one wrong move and it would be the move to send him out the door, he simply said, "Well, I'm here now, aren't I?"

On the location tracking, he just said he was tired of everyone knowing every little thing. I told him I used it for work more than anything and then dropped it.

We also discussed the low libido thing, and perhaps cumulatively that did make a difference over time. He also pointed out that I only wanted sex now because things weren't good between us. So I told him, isn't it better that I want to work on something that is a priority to you rather then saying, "too bad."

Then we went and had some spicy sex. I decided, if nothing else, it's one way to connect, maybe doing that will be enough for now. As long as I'm getting some enjoyment out of it as well, I don't feel badly about this decision.

I haven't had any time to process how I feel. 
I'm sure I will pour out my heart here at some point...
I feel like he was pretty honest, but not completely...there's got to be some catalyst, he said it was the pandemic that was the catalyst, but I suspect there's more, and NO, I really don't suspect it's a woman, I pressed pretty hard on that angle and I believe him.

We discussed the fact that we had spent years doing things HE WANTED to do, that I was easy going and mostly just agreed. He said that's what made all of this worse. (I couldn't help but point that out, like here buddy, I've been a pretty good life partner.)

So that's where we are.
Now I'm going to go spend some time with my daughter and literally take a hike! HA HA.
I'm going to enjoy some outdoors and time with one of my favorite people.


----------



## Andy1001

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you for being here and showing an interest.
> 
> Wasn't it just killing you to know? ME TOO....I don't know how I slept.
> So I went to bed hoping to have sex in the morning (it's one of the ways I try to connect when things aren't good, so sue me, I'm sure we could do lots of analytical crap about my childhood, but whatever) ...but knew I was going to have to initiate and was really fearing rejection.
> I waited for him to wake up and he acted like he was going to jump up, so I told him I was hoping we could have sex, was he interested...he said NO he was good, but after a few moments appeared to change his mind...he waffled, then got up to have coffee.
> 
> So I followed suit, and sat next to him on the couch and calmly told him I needed to know what was going on. He again said that, "he didn't want to have this discussion" and I told him that I needed to know, that not knowing was driving me mad and that I deserved to know.
> 
> In a nutshell he said he doesn't want to be home, specifically with me or the kids or anybody. He wants to be alone. He's not bored. He's wanting to try something new, but when pressed he didn't open up about what that might be. He's not having any type of affair or infidelity with call girls etc, there is no old flame. He finds himself getting angry with me and he says he's not sure why, which is part of the reason he doesn't want to be home. I still suspect that he might know why, but won't tell me...but he said that he was reluctant to have this conversation because he knew it was going to be hurtful to me, and when I pressed him on it (meaning what was I doing or not doing that might have caused this) he said, "I'm not really sure, haven't I hurt you enough?"
> 
> He did say he had thought about separating. He is not interested in working on us, after I said that after 24 years, with a lot of great times, I was definitely interested in working on things.  And then when I told him that this was going to be hard because I wouldn't know how to act around him, like one wrong move and it would be the move to send him out the door, he simply said, "Well, I'm here now, aren't I?"
> 
> On the location tracking, he just said he was tired of everyone knowing every little thing. I told him I used it for work more than anything and then dropped it.
> 
> We also discussed the low libido thing, and perhaps cumulatively that did make a difference over time. He also pointed out that I only wanted sex now because things weren't good between us. So I told him, isn't it better that I want to work on something that is a priority to you rather then saying, "too bad."
> 
> Then we went and had some spicy sex. I decided, if nothing else, it's one way to connect, maybe doing that will be enough for now. As long as I'm getting some enjoyment out of it as well, I don't feel badly about this decision.
> 
> I haven't had any time to process how I feel.
> I'm sure I will pour out my heart here at some point...
> I feel like he was pretty honest, but not completely...there's got to be some catalyst, he said it was the pandemic that was the catalyst, but I suspect there's more, and NO, I really don't suspect it's a woman, I pressed pretty hard on that angle and I believe him.
> 
> We discussed the fact that we had spent years doing things HE WANTED to do, that I was easy going and mostly just agreed. He said that's what made all of this worse. (I couldn't help but point that out, like here buddy, I've been a pretty good life partner.)
> 
> So that's where we are.
> Now I'm going to go spend some time with my daughter and literally take a hike! HA HA.
> I'm going to enjoy some outdoors and time with one of my favorite people.


There’s an old medical expression “If you don’t know what’s wrong, at least treat the symptoms”.
In your case I think you need to give him what he wants.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Andy1001 said:


> There’s an old medical expression “If you don’t know what’s wrong, at least treat the symptoms”.
> In your case I think you need to give him what he wants.


He wants space.
He won't admit to wanting anything else, so either he doesn't quite know what he wants or he's not admitting it yet.


----------



## Beach123

So give him space.

what’s his appointment on Monday?


----------



## Anastasia6

I'd keep up the sex as long as you have some kind of enjoyment. And to increase your enjoyment keep trying new things. You can PM if you want some suggestions. Though were is ...is it stargirl or .. there was someone who had pretty good suggestions.

I say the sex for several reasons. One you know it is a sticking point with him and two he sounds like he might be depressed and sex actually helps with depression as it releases endorphins.

He might also be having the classic mid-life crisis where nothing is good and life is ho-hum and passing him by.

Glad he is treating you somewhat better. This is just a step. Try giving him some space. Like you said I'm a confident woman. Go hiking enjoy life. 

Still take time to do what you can to analyze your actions in the end you are the only person you can control.

Glad he wasn't right at divorce but he sounds like he recognizes you are a good wife but isn't happy.


----------



## lucy999

I'm really sorry to hear this.

We are here when you need us.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> So give him space.
> 
> what’s his appointment on Monday?


It is to look at some equipment that somebody is selling. I asked him.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> I say the sex for several reasons. One you know it is a sticking point with him and two he sounds like he might be depressed and sex actually helps with depression as it releases endorphins.
> He might also be having the classic mid-life crisis where nothing is good and life is ho-hum and passing him by. Try giving him some space. Like you said I'm a confident woman. Go hiking enjoy life.
> Still take time to do what you can to analyze your actions in the end you are the only person you can control.
> Glad he wasn't right at divorce but he sounds like he recognizes you are a good wife but isn't happy.



I could understand this better if we had been having issues, and arguing, and bickering, and all that...but we literally have been having a great couple of years, I've got text and photographic evidence. LOL
...so the unhappy part just seemed to come out of nowhere.

Yes, going to keep up the sex, as long as he's receptive. I will have to get creative & do some research, I actually really enjoyed branching out this morning


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I'm really sorry to hear this.
> 
> We are here when you need us.


Thank you, it is rather overwhelming and hard to wrap my head around since it is such a 180*.
I'm used to being one of his favorite people for 24 years, so this is hard.


----------



## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> In a nutshell he said he doesn't want to be home, specifically with me or the kids or anybody. He wants to be alone. He's not bored. He's wanting to try something new,


Ah....I don't know....something doesn't add up. That he doesn't want to be with you as much, is obvious....but why????

I mean.. .sex might wear out after a few weeks. Would it be enough to keep him around??? Maybe it would be enough for him...but....are you okay with yourself being there just to give him some sex so that you can keep him home??
Is this all you want for yourself after 24 yrs.together? 

I know you're not able to reasonate now...everything sounds cloudy and...confusing. 

At this point, I'd say (in addition to good sex) make him communicate with you. Press him *(in a gentle/non-invasive*) way to open up to you more. Become his therapist. Allow him to share his feelings without judging him. This way he might feel relieved and start reconnecting with you emotionally.

You can't throw away 24yrs together with just "I wanna be alone" or "Let's have some sex". This marriage deserves more.

Did you mention to him that he might've heard the comment you made with the daughter?? Did you explain that you have actually liked his "neediness"????


----------



## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I'm used to being one of his favorite people for 24 years, so this is hard.


Can you recall moments that you might've taken him for granted (a little too often) in the recent years?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> Can you recall moments that you might've taken him for granted (a little too often) in the recent years?


Don't we all do that?
Yes, I have taken some things for granted. 
Off the top of my head...

I took for granted that he would always find me desirable, because he always complimented me and told me so.

I took for granted that he would be patient about me traveling with him. He outfitted his work vehicle with a lap desk and printer and everything so I could work on the road, and yet, that "dream" still hasn't been realized. I tagged along on some trips, but not routinely as he desired. I should have perhaps made it more of a priority. I felt like I needed to address the needs of OUR business and the needs of the family...I am overseeing the care of my Mom w/Alzheimer's, a young adult son with anxiety and panic issues, etc etc.

We have built a life so intertwined, I don't even know how to analyze this. I will say in my defense, that I gave in other areas, maybe thinking it all balanced out?

HE has always been the one desiring togetherness. I have always been the one content with more space.
HE has always been the one more concerned about separation, having to leave for work all the time, worrying about what I was doing when he was gone. (fallout from his first wife cheating on him)
HE has always craved togetherness, evening time was always family time, going to bed together etc. He made it clear he desired these things and I tried to make it happen. If he was in town, how dare I plan an event with a girlfriend, because he travels so much.

HE wanted to plan trips with all our new friends, I said yes.
HE wanted to skip our usual/traditional Thanksgiving plans and instead go visit new friends, I said yes.
HE wanted to buy a house from relatives that I was reluctant to, but I said yes.

Sorry, I went down a side road here. LOL
Not sure this line of thinking is helping.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Also, It's as if he WANTS to be mad at me. Not that he finds that he's mad at me, but that he needs to be in order to cope. Weird I know, just a feeling. He needs a scapegoat, and apparently I am it.
I am literally spending the evening trying to ignore him, just being myself, watching TV with one of the young adult kids and he's hanging as well, and yet I've still caught a few glares. He chose to be in the room with us, nobody forced him. It's like it is preordained, he's not really SEEING what's in front of him or paying any attention. I don't know how to explain it.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I hate to say this, but this sounds like another woman to me. I don’t care how many times he says it’s not. 

You need to have him followed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jorgegene

Definitely something doesn't add up.


----------



## Beach123

3Xnocharm said:


> I hate to say this, but this sounds like another woman to me. I don’t care how many times he says it’s not.
> 
> You need to have him followed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think he’s interested In another woman.

this is the way The behavior is when a man needs to get rid of you because he’s got plans with his OW.

I don’t care how much he denies it - it looks like he’s been cheating.

and don’t use sex just to manipulate him - that’s not right.


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> In a nutshell he said he doesn't want to be home, specifically with me or the kids or anybody. He wants to be alone. He's not bored. *He's wanting to try something new, but when pressed he didn't open up about what that might be.*


This stood out to me. Maybe he's considering an open marriage. Maybe he's considering an affair. My feeling is he already is thinking about, and considering, what that new thing may be. The fact that he's not forthcoming with more information raises a red flag for me.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> This stood out to me. Maybe he's considering an open marriage. Maybe he's considering an affair. My feeling is he already is thinking about, and considering, what that new thing may be. The fact that he's not forthcoming with more information raises a red flag for me.



We tried the "open" thing years ago. Not my first choice, but went along because, you know, it seemed important.

Maybe he's still wondering what he's missed out on. Sucks to be that person that has it all and still not satisfied.
Sucks to be that person who's content and happy and is still not enough.


----------



## Andy1001

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Also, It's as if he WANTS to be mad at me. Not that he finds that he's mad at me, but that he needs to be in order to cope. Weird I know, just a feeling. He needs a scapegoat, and apparently I am it.
> I am literally spending the evening trying to ignore him, just being myself, watching TV with one of the young adult kids and he's hanging as well, and yet I've still caught a few glares. He chose to be in the room with us, nobody forced him. It's like it is preordained, he's not really SEEING what's in front of him or paying any attention. I don't know how to explain it.


He resents you. Because you’re stopping him from doing what he wants. 
It could be guilt, it could be he’s in denial but it doesn’t matter. 
He doesn’t want to be with you. 
He wants to be somewhere else or with someone else. 
And I take no pleasure in telling you this.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Andy1001 said:


> He resents you. Because you’re stopping him from doing what he wants.
> It could be guilt, it could be he’s in denial but it doesn’t matter.
> He doesn’t want to be with you.
> He wants to be somewhere else or with someone else.
> And I take no pleasure in telling you this.


Perhaps


If he can throw away 24 years, I guess I'll figure it out. I want to work on this, but if he doesn't want to, then it makes no difference if I do or not.


----------



## Beach123

So it’s not useful to beg if he’s already checked out. And you shouldn’t be in a position to beg anyone to love you.

but it really sounds like you weren’t totally prioritizing him in your life. So if he does agree to try again what would you do differently to show him he is your priority in the future?


----------



## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> We tried the "open" thing years ago. Not my first choice, but went along because, you know, it seemed important.


What??? 

So, you had an open marriage in the past and it was HIS idea ???? 😕 

Sorry, but this is such a disappointment. He was cheated on and he still wanted an "open" thing??? 
And you accepted that????? This is even more disappointing.

I had pictured a perfect relationship of you two for 24 years (up until the last few months when this awkwardness started) and now you say you had an "open" thing some years ago? 
Was he the last man on Earth??? 

Girl, he's going back to his old habit. You should've let him go years ago when he proposed the "open" relationship.

Now, I can see why he wanted to track you everywhere about everything in the past! This comes from his own bad deeds, from his own insecurities and fears that you might do the same!!


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> What???
> 
> So, you had an open marriage in the past and it was HIS idea ???? 😕
> 
> Sorry, but this is such a disappointment. He was cheated on and he still wanted an "open" thing???
> And you accepted that????? This is even more disappointing.
> 
> I had pictured a perfect relationship of you two for 24 years (up until the last few months when this awkwardness started) and now you say you had an "open" thing some years ago?
> Was he the last man on Earth???
> 
> Girl, he's going back to his old habit. You should've let him go years ago when he proposed the "open" relationship.
> 
> Now, I can see why he wanted to track you everywhere about everything in the past! This comes from his own bad deeds, from his own insecurities and fears that you might do the same!!


I'm not going to go into a lot of details, but it wasn't OPEN in the sense that we could just go screw anyone, it was open in the sense that together we dallied with others...it was all pretty low key to be honest and my biggest issue with it was fear of discovery, the extra thrill was eventually outweighed by the fear of discovery and the logistics of it all.
My eyes were wide open with all of the decisions made, and while it was his idea, I was curious too, but I would have just stayed curious and been OK. That's what I mean by his idea. I brought things up because they were fantasy, he decided to try and make it happen.

I'm sorry you are disappointed, nobody has a perfect marriage, I didn't claim that ours was.

BUT, you bring up a great point and I need to think on this. How many things have I forgiven in the name of working on our marriage? How many things have I just let go of because in the long run, it didn't serve me to make a big deal of it? Isn't that part of marriage? You have to pick and chose your battles? Have I lost myself in all of this with the false idea that it was the right thing to do?

How does one even go about analyzing that?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> So it’s not useful to beg if he’s already checked out. And you shouldn’t be in a position to beg anyone to love you.
> 
> but it really sounds like you weren’t totally prioritizing him in your life. So if he does agree to try again what would you do differently to show him he is your priority in the future?


AGREE, begging is not attractive, I think that would be worse in fact, turn him off of me more. He's exhausted emotionally, I can tell, so if I come across as needy, needing more from him, he's just going to shut me out more (even though we both agreed during our talk that I was EASY GOING and didn't have a lot of demands. Seriously, I am content to fill my day with work, errands, exercise bla bla bla and be independent far more then he ever was. He was always the one insisting the evening was family time etc.) 

Also something good to think about, what would I do differently to make things better if given the chance? I think he would have to communicate to me better what that would look like for him, because I thought I was always considering him with the decisions I made. Maybe that's part of it, what I thought looked like priority, to him, did not feel that way?

I did fail in the sex department, I mean, not HORRIBLY, but I definitely lost the zing and being creative or experiencing something new didn't happen as often as he would have liked, so I know sex was boring for him and not frequent enough, but I never cut him off, just didn't see it as highly important so long as I was doing all the other things right. I know without being told, this was an issue. I thought throwing a bone of spicy every now and then would suffice, but I'm pretty sure it was not enough.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

*


AlmostEmptyNester said:



In a nutshell he said he doesn't want to be home, specifically with me or the kids or anybody. He wants to be alone. He's not bored. He's wanting to try something new, but when pressed he didn't open up about what that might be.

Click to expand...

*Sure he does. He's just not telling YOU.



> *He's not having any type of affair or infidelity with call girls etc, there is no old flame.*


And if you believe THAT one, I have a bridge I want to sell you.

*



He finds himself getting angry with me and he says he's not sure why, which is part of the reason he doesn't want to be home. I still suspect that he might know why, but won't tell me...but he said that he was reluctant to have this conversation because he knew it was going to be hurtful to me, and when I pressed him on it (meaning what was I doing or not doing that might have caused this) he said, "I'm not really sure, haven't I hurt you enough?"

Click to expand...

*I'll say it again. He knows EXACTLY why he's leaving but he's not going to tell you. You'll find out soon enough after you're separated and both in your own places.

*



He did say he had thought about separating. He is not interested in working on us, after I said that after 24 years, with a lot of great times, I was definitely interested in working on things. And then when I told him that this was going to be hard because I wouldn't know how to act around him, like one wrong move and it would be the move to send him out the door, he simply said, "Well, I'm here now, aren't I?"

Click to expand...

*OP, why do you keep swallowing your pride just to desperately hold onto this liar like grim death when he's told you over and over and over that he doesn't want to be with you? Asking him for sex, jumping around like a trained seal desperate to " behave" so he won't leave, an don and on and on.

Jesus. Where is your pride?

*



Then we went and had some spicy sex. I decided, if nothing else, it's one way to connect, maybe doing that will be enough for now. As long as I'm getting some enjoyment out of it as well, I don't feel badly about this decision.

Click to expand...

*That's right. Reward him for LYING to you, disrespecting you over and over and over, and telling you how much he doesn't want to be home with you. He can see your desperation and if you think for one minute he's not going to take advantage of it when it comes divorce time, *think again*.

I give up.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


----------



## aine

@AlmostEmptyNester , this man has not been a good husband, with his open marriage crap when you weren't into it, etc. Why on earth do you feel the need to ***** foot around him now. 

You will not win him back (though why you'd want him is beyond me) like this as you are coming across as weak. You need to do a hard 180 on him. Tell him if he is not happy and after 24 years cannot be honest and transparent with your, he can GTFO and stop sitting on the fence about it as you have had enough! time to play hard ball. 
Then get yourself a good bull dog lawyer. He is treating you like a pariah, treating you terribly and has no respect for you. Why on earth would you treat him with any kindness at all? He's a weak man who doesn't have the balls to sit down like a mature adult and tell you to your face what the hell he is up to. 
This is a man who has another woman on the side and doesn't have the guts to tell you he is leaving you either because as I said, he is weak or because he hasn't got his ducks in a row yet and is just biding his time, keeping you dangling. Yet you still think the best of him, poor him, identifying all the things you did wrong, etc. Quit for God's sake!
You need to pull up your big girl panties, get your head out of the clouds and stop bending over backwards for this POS and ensure you have your own ducks in a row. A man who treats a woman he's been married to for 24 years like this, doesn't deserve any space, he deserves a good kick up the a***, why you are tolerating this BS is beyond me.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Sure he does. He's just not telling YOU.
> 
> I'll say it again. He knows EXACTLY why he's leaving but he's not going to tell you. You'll find out soon enough after you're separated and both in your own places.
> 
> 
> Jesus. Where is your pride?
> 
> I give up.
> 
> Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


I appreciate this, this would have been me 15 years ago. Right now, I'm not ready to throw in the towel, so I'm not going to act like it. I am not going to make this any easier on him in the sense that I am not giving fuel to the fire.

I believe he's being honest. He said he was not having sex with other women, we went over that theme in multiple ways. I have no reason to believe he's lying about that, I just think there's more that he's not telling me. There is definitely a catalyst, one that he's not revealing. Is it an emotional affair? Possibly. Why can't the pandemic be the catalyst? Haven't you heard, tons of marriages are now on the rocks due to the pandemic.

I have pride, pride in the fact that I'm a good person of integrity & loyalty. (his behavior should not dictate mine) You are looking at the sex as if it was a reward for his bad behavior, but I am looking at it as a tool in my toolshed, clearly I don't have many tools right now. I know he will continue to think about it, part of him might have hated that he enjoyed it...and part of him is expecting more lovey dovey clingy from me, but I didn't do that. I sexed him and then went about my day. So maybe he's feeling a bit used? LOL If nothing else, it's a way to connect when nothing else is connecting. Sex can be a wonderfully intimate way to show love, or it can just be sex, I'm not going to romanticize it now, I'm going to use it to my advantage. Maybe that means I have less integrity. Maybe that makes me appear cheap or desperate. I am not concerned about that now. You think I have no pride, but you are mistaken, what? Women can't use sex like men do? Why is it if a woman uses sex, she has no pride, but it's not that way for a man?

I have pride in the fact that I didn't beg, didn't get hysterical, didn't raise my voice when we talked. I can hold my head up high knowing that I'm not the one throwing away the life we have built together. I suspect that one of the reasons he is struggling so badly right now and angry is that he's angry at himself, and feels shame and guilt, because I AM, (for the most part), above reproach and he knows it. He admitted that MOST the things we've done, it's been because he's wanted to and I'm easy going and said, "sure, why not, sounds fun." with the exception of a few things. He hasn't actually left yet (which he pointed out quite bluntly) If I act like an ass now, it will just be the "proof" that he's right to want to leave.. Him wanting something new is NEW...me being one of his favorite people in the world is 24 years old, it's an anchor. Soooooooooooooo, he's either going to be weighed down by the anchor in a bad way, or find that it still holds him steady. 

However, I am going to be practical.
I am going to talk to an attorney, and be prepared.
I am going to start getting rid of STUFF, physical STUFF. Downsize.
I am going to try and do some soul searching and decide IF I want the status quo. Do I really want what we had, or was I simply content.


----------



## lucy999

Ok so I didn't want to be the first to say this right on the heels of your H saying he doesn't want to be with you. I felt like that'd be cruel and kicking you while you were down in that very moment and it really wouldn't serve any purpose right then.

But I immediately thought that your husband has at least MET someone. You may believe him when he says he hasn't had sex with anyone, and that may be 100% true. But cheaters (or cheaters in the making) lie. So it'd be wise to not believe anything that comes out of his mouth. I know, I know. He's your best friend and all. But right now he is not your friend. He is your enemy. He does not have your best interests at heart. I know you'll say that sounds dramatic. What else would you call it then? 

He is not searching,he is not having a mid life crisis,he is not depressed. Your new little detail of him wanting to expand the bedroom activities long ago tells me alot. NOT judging at all. Just saying that is a piece of the puzzle that completed the picture. He wants to be with this new person he's met. Let her have him.

I'm really glad to hear you're not resting on your laurels and you're seeing an attorney. Don't try to nice him back and whatever you do, don't play the pick me dance.

Respectfully and gently--you need to wake the hell up and take off those rose colored glasses. Your husband is lying to you about another woman. 

I get it's natural to want to navel gaze about your marriage but doing that for too long is a dangerous game. Woulda,shoulda,coulda. Stay away from that rabbit hole.

Get your ducks in a row and forge ahead. You have a livelihood and businesses to protect. Without him in it.


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> How many things have I forgiven in the name of working on our marriage? How many things have I just let go of because in the long run, it didn't serve me to make a big deal of it? Isn't that part of marriage? You have to pick and chose your battles? Have I lost myself in all of this with the false idea that it was the right thing to do?
> 
> How does one even go about analyzing that?


I don't think you necessarily have to analyze ^^this.^^ But you need to establish boundaries and clarify, within yourself, what you are willing and not willing to accept from your husband. Your husband suggested some form of open marriage. You went along. And it sounds like you weren't particularly comfortable with that. But you did it to please him and not make waves. Now your husband has said he wants to check out of the marriage - at least for the time being. And you're grappling with whether or not to accept what he's saying.

The bottom line here is YOU have to decide, for yourself and yourself alone, what YOU are willing to accept and not accept. That's called boundaries.

So what do you want? And keep in mind, he's telling you in half-truths what he wants. Basically, he's lying by omission by not be totally honest with you.


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## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> How many things have I forgiven in the name of working on our marriage? How many things have I just let go of because in the long run, it didn't serve me to make a big deal of it? Isn't that part of marriage? You have to pick and chose your battles? Have I lost myself in all of this with the false idea that it was the right thing to do?
> 
> How does one even go about analyzing that?


Great questions to be asking to yourself? 
Can you tolerate another _stray-away _from his marriage ?? 
I think you have put up with some hard decisions. Now it's time to think coldly.

You need reflection and some alone time. Are you able to leave the house for some days for some reflection?


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## frusdil

I'm sorry but nope. I told my husband long ago that if he ever came to me with the "I need space" bs, I'd give him all the damn space he wanted. He could gtfo and we'd be done. 

Your husband needs to tell you what the damn issue is (though I think we all know what it is), or gtfo.

You need to see more than one attorney, see ALL the bulldog attorneys in your area - then they won't be able to represent him. Get your ducks in a row, know your rights and then blow up his damn world.

God people like this make me mad. You're his WIFE. You've stood by him, raised his children, washed his dirty socks and jocks for 24 years. You deserve the chance to try to make it right, but he's treating you like a pebble in his shoe.


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## Beach123

I don’t care how much you love him...once any man makes you his “option” (which he has) it’s time to kick him out so he can have his freedom he wants. And you should file for divorce! That way you take YOUR power back.

stop bowing down - he is a guy that’s likely cheating on you. Start acting as if he is and protected yourself and your future.


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## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Why can't the pandemic be the catalyst? Haven't you heard, tons of marriages are now on the rocks due to the pandemic.


I don't like the idea of blaming the pandemic, otherwise all the marriages in the world would've failed. 
I can understand the pandemic might affect a freshly dating couple who were not able to see each other for a long period of time, but a 24-year old marriage???

Please, don't justify his behavior. You know better than that.


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## lovelygirl

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He hasn't actually left yet (which he pointed out quite bluntly) If I act like an ass now, it will just be the "proof" that he's right to want to leave..


WTF? Is he threatening you??? 

He is the_ last_ person in all this mess to set terms and conditions!! He is not in a position to keep you on your toes because HE's the one who brought this crack in your marriage. The roles should be reversed. 

Can you imagine being "afraid" to say one more word or acting a little bit more because of the fear of him leaving? 

That's nonsense.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> But I immediately thought that your husband has at least MET someone. You may believe him when he says he hasn't had sex with anyone, and that may be 100% true. But cheaters (or cheaters in the making) lie. So it'd be wise to not believe anything that comes out of his mouth. I know, I know. He's your best friend and all. But right now he is not your friend. He is your enemy. He does not have your best interests at heart. I know you'll say that sounds dramatic. What else would you call it then?


I asked him again yesterday, totally out of the blue (none of that "let's have a talk") 
Is there another woman? "No, there is not another woman." 
Are you having sex with another woman? "No, I am not having sex with another woman" "I am not with another woman, I am with you."
Are you interested in someone else? (this one he tried dodging a bit and deflecting and I was dogged and determined) "No I am not interested in another woman." ***there's something here, but I'm not sure it really is another woman, but maybe I was close to asking the right question.

I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't more of a power play/control thing. 
I know you ALL think he's lying. I think he's probably still omitting something important, just not sure it's a woman.
(or a man, one never knows so I asked that too, not really thinking it would be a possibility)


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> WTF? Is he threatening you???
> 
> He is the_ last_ person in all this mess to set terms and conditions!! He is not in a position to keep you on your toes because HE's the one who brought this crack in your marriage. The roles should be reversed.
> 
> Can you imagine being "afraid" to say one more word or acting a little bit more because of the fear of him leaving?
> 
> That's nonsense.


Well, honestly, I don't think he has a clue how this is bothering me, or he's just so wrapped up in his own struggle he's not SEEING what's going on. He was worried yesterday that our daughter would overhear my questions (I was whispering just to be dramatic and catch him off balance) and I laughed at him then and said, "you really thing your attitude towards me has gone unnoticed?"


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## lucy999

So what's the plan? Are you going to stay in limbo forever? Is there an end date to this madness? When's your appointment with an attorney?

This is not 20 questions. Stop asking questions. He won't tell you, anyway. Or he will lie. Interesting, though, how he paused when you asked if he was interested in someone else. He still said no. I know you're searching for answers. I get it. I would be, too. But stop. Remember-he doesn't have your best interests at heart anymore. 

The whole "But I'm here with you" is a bunch of crap. Thanks, I guess? He is NOT wrapped up in his own "struggle". This is NOT a power play. A power play for what, exactly? He knows damn well how this is affecting you. You give him waaaay too much credit and latitude.

What about you? What about your feelings? Has he asked about you and how you're doing? That he has pulled the pin on a grenade and is right there with you, waiting for it to explode and watching you all the while is sick. If he needs "space" he needs to GTFO and find a hotel.

You know what he's doing? He is deciding. He is deciding whether he wants to make a go of it with this new woman or not. You, sadly, have been demoted to Plan B. Do not sit there and watch him make that decision.


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## Beach123

File and have him served! That way he will know his cold and distant attitude isn’t what you intend to be married to.

that way he also gets the firm idea that his games aren’t honoring his vows. That way he knows you aren’t living with his crappy attitude.

maybe he will wake up - maybe he won’t. But at least you’ll show him you won’t live long term with him treating you sub par... because you shouldn’t!


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## Anastasia6

I'm glad you are see an attorney. While there could be lots of explanations interest in another woman is most likely.

Did we ever find out the great appointment today?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

So, he was here in town Fri night, Sat, Sun, Mon. 
We had almost all the kids over for dinner for Father's Day. Husband grilled a bunch of meat, one of the few things he still seems to enjoy doing. (The kids are young adults, one actually still lives at home and the other lives back and forth between college apartment and home) The oldest kid with the grandbabies did her own thing.
There were a couple gifts (I gave him no card or gift) and we watched a movie. Pleasant, but not great.
They all know to varying degrees that something is off, but nobody said anything. 

Monday we had an appointment in the morning together and then last night watched tv together. His solo appointment was literally to look at some equipment that we might have been able to use for our line of business, he gave me more details on that last night while we were watching TV.

He left this morning for work out of town. We are short handed in another state and he is conducting interviews and pitching in where he can. 

I am going out of town Friday w/one of my kids to see my family (and hopefully chill at the pool) returning Sunday.

Today I will call around and set up some attorney appointments. Since I've never seen a family/divorce lawyer, I have no idea how quickly one can get in for a consultation. 

I may also look into getting a therapist or counselor for myself. He said he wouldn't see one, but that doesn't mean I can't.

I spoke to a fairly new friend and she mentioned that her husband went through something similar years ago. He was angry all the time and mean and she eventually got fed up and they separated for about six months. Then they went to counseling and worked things out, and have been back together ever since. (Of course, they had young kids at home, so there was more at stake. We don't have that anymore.) She also said that part of his issue could be hormones, that it could be the male version of menopause.

I am not TRYING to justify his behavior. I'd just like to understand it. I deal better with knowledge, that's just how I am.


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## lovelygirl

Do you have any friend/relative that knows both you and your H or knows him just as well as you?
Would it be better to talk to them first? Obviously, this other person shall have an unbiased opinion for your H so that it won't affect the objective judgement of this strange situation. 
This other person's input might help you understand what's going on with him. This can be some sort of help before you go into IC.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Feelings: OK, so I am all over the place. One minute I'm OK, then next I'm miserable. I can't help but take every little thing as a sign, a good sign, a bad sign, a sign I can't decipher. I will literally drive myself MAD with this.

Since he admitted that he had considered a separation, then yes, I am now an option that might not make the cut. So one thing that weighs heavily on my mind is, what if he choses to stay, how would I ever trust that this wouldn't happen again? How many more years do I want to put into this marriage, just to be dumped later on when he has his next crisis?

I deserve so much more. 

Another decision, if our marriage doesn't last, do I still want to be part of the businesses? (we co-own TWO, one is our livelihood, the other more for fun)

I bust my butt working for the one business, because it allows us a great lifestyle, but I do not think I would continue. I am a key player, and my absence would be felt, but for the most part, the other office people could figure out my duties, I just happen to be very knowledgeable since we've been doing this for ages. I might request to be bought out (based on stock price and how much I own) and move on. _It's a package deal, you throw me out of the marriage, I'll be damned if I help your business._

I know, seems rather spiteful and would cost me in the long run. Wonder if I could stay an owner, but just step down from my "job". That way I would still get whatever profit dividends....my hourly rate is peanuts, so that wouldn't be a big deal to let go of that part-time anyway.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lovelygirl said:


> Do you have any friend/relative that knows both you and your H or knows him just as well as you?
> Would it be better to talk to them first? Obviously, this other person shall have an unbiased opinion for your H so that it won't affect the objective judgement of this strange situation.
> This other person's input might help you understand what's going on with him. This can be some sort of help before you go into IC.


What is IC?

I talked with my sis, she is just as baffled as I am. She knows both of us pretty well.

His best friend passed away 10 years ago, and he's never really gotten that close with anyone else. I'm not sure who else I could talk to that knows us both really well. I don't think our newish friends we've made over the past 3 years have enough insight.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> The bottom line here is YOU have to decide, for yourself and yourself alone, what YOU are willing to accept and not accept. That's called boundaries.
> 
> So what do you want? And keep in mind, he's telling you in half-truths what he wants. Basically, he's lying by omission by not be totally honest with you.



YES....I need to decide what I'm willing to accept, and for how long.
I think I will make a list.
I am a list maker. LOL
I'll post more later, real life is getting in the way.


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## lucy999

Your thinking is sound. You could still be an owner of the business if you two were to divorce. Lots of things could happen. It really just depends on how you two come to an agreement.

IC is individual counseling. You've already said that you were thinking of getting a counselor. I think that's a great idea.

And please don't start thinking, oh that's spiteful, etc. when it comes to splitting assets. You've got to think for your future and the life you will be living financially without him. Sounds like you've put sweat, blood, and tears in those businesses and it should reflect in your settlement.

I've told this story a million times here but you haven't heard it. Two of my dear friends' husbands left them (at separate times). My friends didn't want to divorce so they played nice during settlement negotiations hoping to win them back. Didn't work, of course. Guess what? Both of them, and this is years later, are so financially crippled that I regularly give food to one of them. She's quite a bit older than myself and she's retired. My mom even gave her 100.00 one year for xmas so she could buy groceries.

I know that won't be you, we are in different tax brackets lol but I wanted to tell you this cautionary tale to make sure you look out for yourself if it comes down to divorce.

Make those lists. I'm a list maker, too. I appreciate lists more than the average bear.


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## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> YES....I need to decide what I'm willing to accept, and for how long.
> I think I will make a list.
> I am a list maker. LOL
> I'll post more later, real life is getting in the way.


And this is all you can do. Figure out what you want. What you are and are not willing to accept. Set boundaries. Even if you don't share them with him. See a lawyer or more than one. Find one that you feel comfortable with. The first consultation is usually free. LIsten to what they say you are entitled if you divorce. Make sound financial plans. 

And I totally agree do you want to live like you are an option and worry the rest of your life?


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## Beach123

Have you considered hiring a private investigator to follow him while he’s away working? That may provide info that’s helpful.

what info did you get regarding where he stayed last week when it didn’t show up on his expense account?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Have you considered hiring a private investigator to follow him while he’s away working? That may provide info that’s helpful.
> 
> what info did you get regarding where he stayed last week when it didn’t show up on his expense account?


I'm going down a really dark hole right now. Feeling really sorry for myself at the moment. 
One minute I'm mad, the next I'm terribly upset. I'm having a really hard time focusing on just about everything.

Dumbass (name calling, yes, I'm getting angry) left some important paperwork I have to fedex to him, and I have half a mind to stick a personal note in the package, but can't decide what it would say?

I am waffling back and forth between feeling desperate and pathetic, to starting to get really angry.

I think he was decent this weekend because he got part of the ugly out in the open, he laid the groundwork that he's "thinking" about a separation. 

We have never, in our entire marriage, even threatened divorce or separation. EVER. So he's probably thinking he's breaking it to me gently so I have time to get used to it.

Our accountant said he's going to give me some good names (he went through a very nasty divorce after 33 years) and I've gotten some names from other sources as well.

I see glimpses of my backbone peeking out.

BTW - The hotel showed up the next day, was just a glitch on the website.


----------



## Openminded

All of this may be nothing more than middle-age angst that he’ll soon wake up from and shake his head about. But the point is that right now, today, you have no idea how serious this is. That’s why you have to be prepared for anything. I made lots of lists, because my brain couldn’t be relied on during that time, and they were invaluable. Things I needed to do, things I wanted to do, things I wished I could do —on and on. The moment I thought of something I put it on the list before I forgot it. I couldn’t have dealt with what I was dealing with otherwise. Take a deep breath (or many of them — that helps too). If the worst happens, you _will_ get through it and life _will_ be good again.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Openminded said:


> All of this may be nothing more than middle-age angst that he’ll soon wake up from and shake his head about. But the point is that right now, today, you have no idea how serious this is. That’s why you have to be prepared for anything. I made lots of lists, because my brain couldn’t be relied on during that time, and they were invaluable. Things I needed to do, things I wanted to do, things I wished I could do —on and on. The moment I thought of something I put it on the list before I forgot it. I couldn’t have dealt with what I was dealing with otherwise. Take a deep breath (or many of them — that helps too). If the worst happens, you _will_ get through it and life _will_ be good again.


Thank you for this.
You are correct.
The only thing I can do right now is control my actions.
Everything is pure speculation, and if I take things at face value I'm dealing with a very miserable husband who wants to spend time alone, who won't seek help right now. He could be depressed, self destructive, MANopause, midlife crisis etc. 
We had a text conversation today about a restaurant bill on our joint account, I point blank asked him who he ate with since it seemed high for one person and he actually asked me if I was going through his stuff, so I had to explain first off, no, I was paying bills and saw it online, and secondly due to the conversation we had this weekend, I'm a mess, I'm going to over analyze everything and worry. 
He said he understood, but was really unable to reassure me other then he had no plans, no plans to leave.

Then he told me to stop pushing. UGH.
If I keep the conversation to anything other than personal, he's very civil. THAT is actually an improvement, so maybe this weekend helped a tiny tiny bit.

So I've come to the conclusion that for right now, I'm going to focus on me.
*Be civil.
*Continue to work.
*Talk to a few attorneys so I'm prepared for the worst
_Talk to a counselor, I need help, *this_ is not the only crappy thing I'm dealing with, I have young adult son with anxiety issues and a Mom with Alzheimer's and sick family members (you know, LIFE).
*Try to purge things, we have way too much crap in this house
*Make an appointment with my GYN to address my never ending period and low libido
*Stay busy doing things I want to do
*Make plans with friends, perhaps a few trips away. Maybe I'll go to the beach by myself or something.

At some point it will all come to a head. He will seek help, he won't, I'll run out of patience, etc. Something will eventually happen.


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## Blondilocks

Well, the next time he forgets something and expects you to come to his rescue, just respond with "Stop pushing. I'm busy talking with my lawyer". He really thinks he's all that, doesn't he.


----------



## Openminded

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you for this.
> You are correct.
> The only thing I can do right now is control my actions.
> Everything is pure speculation, and if I take things at face value I'm dealing with a very miserable husband who wants to spend time alone, who won't seek help right now. He could be depressed, self destructive, MANopause, midlife crisis etc.
> We had a text conversation today about a restaurant bill on our joint account, I point blank asked him who he ate with since it seemed high for one person and he actually asked me if I was going through his stuff, so I had to explain first off, no, I was paying bills and saw it online, and secondly due to the conversation we had this weekend, I'm a mess, I'm going to over analyze everything and worry.
> He said he understood, but was really unable to reassure me other then he had no plans, no plans to leave.
> 
> Then he told me to stop pushing. UGH.
> If I keep the conversation to anything other than personal, he's very civil. THAT is actually an improvement, so maybe this weekend helped a tiny tiny bit.
> 
> So I've come to the conclusion that for right now, I'm going to focus on me.
> *Be civil.
> *Continue to work.
> *Talk to a few attorneys so I'm prepared for the worst
> _Talk to a counselor, I need help, *this_ is not the only crappy thing I'm dealing with, I have young adult son with anxiety issues and a Mom with Alzheimer's and sick family members (you know, LIFE).
> *Try to purge things, we have way too much crap in this house
> *Make an appointment with my GYN to address my never ending period and low libido
> *Stay busy doing things I want to do
> *Make plans with friends, perhaps a few trips away. Maybe I'll go to the beach by myself or something.
> 
> At some point it will all come to a head. He will seek help, he won't, I'll run out of patience, etc. Something will eventually happen.


I know this is tough. I think I hated the not-knowing part most of all. But I was much stronger than I gave myself credit for and I’m sure you are as well.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Blondilocks said:


> Well, the next time he forgets something and expects you to come to his rescue, just respond with "Stop pushing. I'm busy talking with my lawyer". He really thinks he's all that, doesn't he.


This is funny! I'm not telling him about the lawyer until I'm ready by the way.

Also, I don't think he thinks he's all that, in fact, I think it's the opposite. 
He's never been arrogant. Sure he has been an ass occasionally, but so can everyone.
I really do appreciate everyone's outrage on my behalf, and even anger directed at me for appearing to be such a chump, I know it's coming from a good place, and I do appreciate that.

However, don't think the thoughts aren't crossing my mind. I'm trying really hard to be mature here and not stoop. I have standards for myself. Although, I have stopped putting my things on the family calendar. Let him ask me if I'm at home or the office or whatever. No more open book from my end.


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## aine

@AlmostEmptyNester, have you read up on the 180. Do the 180, go dark. Do not be available for anything for him. He is keeping you in the dark, you do likewise.


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## frusdil

aine said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester, have you read up on the 180. Do the 180, go dark. Do not be available for anything for him. He is keeping you in the dark, you do likewise.


Yes, and when he questions you say "Stop questioning me, don't push".


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## 3Xnocharm

There have been five or six suggestions on here about you having him followed by a PI… Two or three of them from me… And you completely ignore it every time it’s suggested. You could potentially have all the answers you need by doing this one thing, and you keep choosing not to do it. I think you’re terrified that you’re going to find out that he has another woman. Burying your head in the sand and pretending it’s not happening isn’t going to make it go away. He keeps going on these out-of-town trips that you don’t go on, and you just sit there and do nothing and let him go. Meanwhile he keeps handing you all this bull crap and telling you to stop pushing. Screw him. 

Personally, I think you should file for divorce. Make the decision for him. That could either save your marriage, or, still at least have you in the drivers seat for the inevitable divorce that he seems to be working toward. Let him know that he is not in charge of your life, and you won’t stand for this wishy washy fence sitting regarding your life. 

And for gods sake, hire that PI!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AlmostEmptyNester

3Xnocharm said:


> There have been five or six suggestions on here about you having him followed by a PI… Two or three of them from me… And you completely ignore it every time it’s suggested.
> 
> And for gods sake, hire that PI!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I ignore the PI suggestion because I'm not there (yet)
I said from the beginning I did not think he was having an affair, and I'm still not 100% sold on the idea.
I also said that I wasn't sure it was a deal breaker, or if I haven't said it, I'm saying it now.
When I was younger, yes, total deal breaker. Now, honestly, I simply don't know.

As for the divorce papers, first step is to talk to some attorneys, pick one I like, and then get my ducks in a row. I do not know how it all works, however I am thinking perhaps to have a rough draft all drawn up and at some point present it to him, letting him know exactly where I stand, which would be something along the lines of:

_Get yourself help, check your hormones, see a therapist for depression etc. I can no longer live like a roommate instead of desired life partner, so if you aren't willing to work on yourself, much less this marriage, I'm prepared to cut ties and here is what that looks like_


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## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester, have you read up on the 180. Do the 180, go dark. Do not be available for anything for him. He is keeping you in the dark, you do likewise.


I am going to read up on this right now. I have a feeling it is something similar to one of my earlier posts where I said it was so stupid to be playing games, but I guess that's where I'm at.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> We had a text conversation today about a restaurant bill on our joint account, I point blank asked him who he ate with since it seemed high for one person and he actually asked me if I was going through his stuff, so I had to explain first off, no, I was paying bills and saw it online, and secondly due to the conversation we had this weekend, I'm a mess, I'm going to over analyze everything and worry.
> He said he understood, but was really unable to reassure me other then he had no plans, no plans to leave.
> 
> Then he told me to stop pushing. UGH.


So he didn't answer the question, then. Did I get that right?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> So he didn't answer the question, then. Did I get that right?


He did answer it, explained exactly what he ordered and then said I could look it up on their online menu.

I actually thought it was funny that he asked if I was going through his stuff, like can he really be so clueless? He's said two things lately that make me realize just how clueless he is. That was one of them, the other was when he was worried our daughter might overhear my questions about another woman. 

Like really dude, you think NOBODY has noticed that you've checked out of our lives? He is in a crisis, stuck in his head or trying to get out of his head, about the only thing he seems to really focus on is work, he even said so. AND don't think that for a moment I thought his answer was too pat, thought out ahead of time, but then once again, I could spend HOURs over analyzing, and I have chosen to work with face value at this point, it's the more sane route for me.


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## lucy999

Respectfully--he's not clueless at all. He really did want to know if you were snooping and he doesn't want your daughter to know there might be another woman.

You keep saying "he told me". It really would behoove you to quit believing anything he says.


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## Beach123

You think he’s focused on work... but I think it’s an OW while he’s at work.

and I agree - you seem to believe everything he tells you... you need to adjust that mindset.


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## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I am going to read up on this right now. I have a feeling it is something similar to one of my earlier posts where I said it was so stupid to be playing games, but I guess that's where I'm at.


*No, it is not about playing games.* It is about you taking back control of what you can control and not being totally swung around emotionally like a puppet on strings.
In fact it was first designed as a divorce busting tool (by Michele Weiner Davis). Begging, crying etc a partner who is on the verge of walking away does not help at all and pushes them away completely. You have been doing this to a great extent and have got nothing, I repeat nothing only more and more stone walling. Now it is time for you to take control of the reigns of YOUR life regardless of what he is doing.
I post a link here to the full list of the 180









The 180


Several years ago, Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, introduced a concept to the world of infidelity that is designed to help you and your partner move forward in the healing of…




beingabeautifulmess.wordpress.com


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Respectfully--he's not clueless at all. He really did want to know if you were snooping and he doesn't want your daughter to know there might be another woman.
> 
> You keep saying "he told me". It really would behoove you to quit believing anything he says.



I have already decided I'm going off of face value, otherwise I will drive myself INSANE guessing and speculating and trying to analyze every nuance. I am not built for that, it is a total waste of my energy.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

So I have a plan now and I felt MUCH BETTER today after having made some decisions. I'm sure the plan will change and get amended, but this is it for now:
I have an appointment with a counselor Friday
Still have to set up an appointment or a few with attorneys (those will probably make it on next week's schedule)
Still have to set up an appointment with my GYN
Going to start purging stuff
Getting all the ducks in a row ready to lay it all out when the time is right (I'll know when I've reached it)
Going to deal with face value and do my best to quit obsessing about what every little thing might mean
Going to visit family this weekend and continue to plan solo trips/trips with others schedule allowing
Got a pedicure today for the first time since the dumb pandemic.
Getting my hair done next week.
I'm going to start replacing most of my frumpy sleepwear with cute/attractive (same with my undergarments)

I wrote down my own little shortened version of the 180 on my phone, to read and re-read when I feel weak or that I'm straying...my version goes like this: Stop Chasing, Stop Texting/calling, Stop saying I love you, Have/Get a life, Be mysterious/short answers/vague, be unpredictable. Look Good/Be confident.

So today he called me, by the background noise he could tell I was driving and handsfree on the phone and he said, "I thought you were going to be in the office?" and I said, I will be, but not till after lunchtime. Normally I would have followed with, I'm working out and then meeting a friend for lunch, but I did not volunteer any of that info. I know this sounds stupid, but I was proud of myself. LOL

I also decided NOT to tell him details about my trip to see my family. If he wants to know he will have to ask. So far he only asked when I was leaving.

I have also started putting all my _things_ on my calendar, not the family shared one. So my hair appointment or workouts or counseling session, all of that would typically go on the family calendar. NOPE.


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## aine

@AlmostEmptyNester , good for you, baby steps, take one day at a time. We are rooting for you here on TAM. Remember the only person you can control is yourself, not your husband. Try to enjoy all the things you are doing. It is great you are going to see a counsellor. Consider mindfulness in your activities, feel your senses, breathe the air, have compassion for yourself. Focus on you.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I have already decided I'm going off of face value, otherwise I will drive myself INSANE guessing and speculating and trying to analyze every nuance. I am not built for that, it is a total waste of my energy.


Ok.


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## Beach123

When you do that face value thing - remember you will only know what HE wants you to know - and that it’s not smart to believe everything he’s telling you now.

and reconsider hiring a PI - that way you’ll get some real info as to what he’s doing.

do the 180 for you - for YOUR sanity and your future.

you can keep your appointments on your phone too - that’s the easiest way for me as it even reminds me ahead of time what’s coming up. I can easily make appts on my phone while I’m at the dentist or doctors office - it’s super convenient.

why did he want to know when you’re leaving? I’d place a camera (best works great) in the home. You can see on your phone in real time what’s happening in the house while you’re away. It will alert you with sound and movement if you choose that option within the app. That could easily help you as well. You need info - I’d get busy getting the info you need! You can’t rely on the info he provides anymore!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> When you do that face value thing - remember you will only know what HE wants you to know - and that it’s not smart to believe everything he’s telling you now.
> 
> and reconsider hiring a PI - that way you’ll get some real info as to what he’s doing.
> 
> do the 180 for you - for YOUR sanity and your future.
> 
> you can keep your appointments on your phone too - that’s the easiest way for me as it even reminds me ahead of time what’s coming up. I can easily make appts on my phone while I’m at the dentist or doctors office - it’s super convenient.
> 
> why did he want to know when you’re leaving? I’d place a camera (best works great) in the home. You can see on your phone in real time what’s happening in the house while you’re away. It will alert you with sound and movement if you choose that option within the app. That could easily help you as well. You need info - I’d get busy getting the info you need! You can’t rely on the info he provides anymore!


When I say face value, I don't necessarily mean I'm going to believe everything he says, I mean I'm going to "go with" what he says. I am lacking the words to fully explain myself. At the very least, he's omitting something(s) important, but I'll base my actions and decisions off of what I do know (face value) and what I think is healthiest for me.

Like the 180 - totally in my interests and much healthier for me physically and mentally. It's a much better headspace to be in. IF it leads up to better conversation or better interactions with my husband, I'll be in a stronger head space, be able to take a tougher stance instead of the weak desperate one I have been in. IF it doesn't lead anywhere, then I'll still be doing things for my own good and be better off for it.

I do keep my appointments on my phone, but the "organizer/administrator of the family" role I have taken on over the years with two businesses, two kids, two stepkids, grandkids, yadda yadda yadda, you better believe I have multiple calendars and keep track of tons of things....so all of it goes on the phone in various different calendars. MOST of them on the family one, but not any longer. Hell, at one point I even had a menu calendar for keeping track of my meal planning. 

Also, I'm not 100% sure why he wanted to know when I was leaving...I think it had to do with the fact that he might actually be coming home a day early and we share a personal trainer and he's quit going for the most part, but when I made my counseling appt. I realized I couldn't make the training session, so I asked him if he wanted to go see the trainer instead of me. I think that prompted him to wonder when I was heading out of town, so I led him to believe that me not being able to make the training session was due to work I had to get done prior to leaving vs. revealing my counseling appointment.

I didn't ask him why, for the most part, I'm not going to be asking him why because then I would be predictable. LOL


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## Sockittomewife

You go girl. I will say, me and my husband are just like you two, except the opposite! And the more time I have down in the dumps sometimes, it makes it worse and then old stuff gets brought up... 
it’s just my personality and how I cope, and process things. I don’t want to say anything until I know forsure with myself what I want or need. So I can see how you are not thinking about a affair. You know him and his personality. But I’m glad you are taking precaution! And Having your guard up!


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## re16

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I ignore the PI suggestion because I'm not there (yet)
> I said from the beginning I did not think he was having an affair, and I'm still not 100% sold on the idea.


This situation you're in is tough, but I think you need some tougher advice to make the right moves to get yourself out of this.

I am sure you truly FEEL like you are not there yet regarding thinking he may be cheating, *but how you feel about it has nearly zero to do with reality*. A lot of experienced posters are telling you that this doesn't seem right, as well as *your initial gut feeling that something was off*. I agree with the other posters, *something isn't right* and he is lying to you. Just put a VAR in the car or hire the PI and get it over with already.

These little wins you think are getting by not telling him where you are going or putting things on your private calendar vs the family calendar... c'mon - he is being completely dishonest and withholding major information from you about your own relationship and you think not putting something on a calendar is a win. Thats like getting in a snowball fight with an avalanche.

*You need to wake up and take action*. If you are afraid of what the truth might be, too bad and all the more reason to disprove it. At this point, you should be operating in the he is *guilty until proven innocent* range. You don't know who this guy is around when traveling or what he is doing and next thing you know, you are passing the virus around to older members of your family.

Also, he behaves that poorly and you reward the behavior by offering sex? *Don't reinforce negative behavior*, it only incentivizes more of it.

Not meaning to make you feel bad, but say directly that you need to toughen up....as in weeks ago.


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## frusdil

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Like the 180 - *totally in my interests and much healthier for me physically and mentally. It's a much better headspace to be in.* IF it leads up to better conversation or better interactions with my husband, I'll be in a stronger head space, be able to take a tougher stance instead of the weak desperate one I have been in. IF it doesn't lead anywhere, then I'll still be doing things for my own good and be better off for it.


That's the very purpose of the 180. It's about putting up boundaries to protect YOU. It's not about playing games or manipulating someone into staying with you. Well done.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Sockittomewife said:


> You go girl. I will say, me and my husband are just like you two, except the opposite! And the more time I have down in the dumps sometimes, it makes it worse and then old stuff gets brought up...
> it’s just my personality and how I cope, and process things. I don’t want to say anything until I know forsure with myself what I want or need. So I can see how you are not thinking about a affair. You know him and his personality. But I’m glad you are taking precaution! And Having your guard up!



Yes, he likes to "chew" on things and internalizes a lot.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Update: Did not get to go out of town this weekend, son's mental health took a nosedive and he is on a 72 hour evaluation at a local facility. I spent most of Thursday Day till 3am with him in the ER, but now I'm not allowed to see him, but I don't feel right leaving town either. Was totally disgusted with my husband's reaction and lack of emotional support. Went to my first counseling session and unloaded on her, and she said that she thought I was handling everything well and in a good headspace and not really sure if we needed to keep seeing each other. I told her I wanted to continue for now. Yesterday afternoon I ditched work and ran some errands, and walked with my friend and then we went and had cocktails and actually had a really good time.


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## Anastasia6

I'm so sorry to hear about your son. I completely understand why you were reluctant to leave town.
I am glad to hear you were able to get out and walk with your friend.

Some people have trouble with lots of emotionally taxing things perhaps between your son and your mother your husband just doesn't know how to deal. It is sad but some people just don't have the depth to handle it.


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## lucy999

Oh my gosh how horrible for your son and for you--for everyone. I'm really sorry to hear this.

I'm hoping for better days ahead for the both of you.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about your son. I completely understand why you were reluctant to leave town.
> I am glad to hear you were able to get out and walk with your friend.
> 
> Some people have trouble with lots of emotionally taxing things perhaps between your son and your mother your husband just doesn't know how to deal. It is sad but some people just don't have the depth to handle it.


Thank you.

Seems like that is the case, he is absolutely incapable of anything resembling emotion unless it's anger.
I on the other hand, am handling everything like a total badass if I do say so. 
Hopefully I can continue to hang on to my sanity and resolve. Got more bad news, my Aunt passed away this morning.
2020 - the gift that keeps giving.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Oh my gosh how horrible for your son and for you--for everyone. I'm really sorry to hear this.
> 
> I'm hoping for better days ahead for the both of you.


Thank you, he's such a good person, so many people love him, he's accomplished a lot and yet he's struggling. I HATE that he's so miserable, and wish I could fix it. It break's this Mom's heart that he suffers so. I hope he is in a place that can show him how to help himself and accept help.


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## lucy999

Oh no! I'm sorry about your aunt passing. 2020 can go to hell.


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## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> o stepkids, grandkids





AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you, he's such a good person, so many people love him, he's accomplished a lot and yet he's struggling. I HATE that he's so miserable, and wish I could fix it. It break's this Mom's heart that he suffers so. I hope he is in a place that can show him how to help himself and accept help.


He is blessed to have you as a mum. Hugs.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Oh no! I'm sorry about your aunt passing. 2020 can go to hell.


RIGHT?!?...This year has been pretty hard on me, not because I am having a hard time with the craziness, but because it seems like those around me are struggling so much, and then you just top it off with "normal" crap, I mean life. My Aunt had been battling cancer for 8 years, so it was not a surprise, but still, I count myself lucky that I was one of the people she cared about. She always had good advice and was such an amazing person. I know my cousins and their families are hurting...that's the kicker.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Update, sorry, lots of rambling:
Dropped off some clothes for my son but was unable to see him.
Spent yesterday running errands, went for a 5 mile walk by the river and enjoyed Mother Nature. 
Thought about a lot of things.

Husband has been a little less distant. It's almost like he falls back into habits formed over YEARs of being together and then catches himself and gets angry. It's like he's mad at our comfortableness? Or maybe his own. He's mad at where he is in life right now and how he spends his time? I know that sounds crazy, but perhaps part of that is also being mad about where and who we are as a couple? Clearly, he hasn't actually TOLD me this, it's just a gut feeling. What makes it even worse is that we are where we are mostly because our personalities. He is opinionated and I am easy going. He is confrontational, and I am not. 

Last night he was back to being angry and finding me irritating. I could just tell without even having to hear words, it was in his body language. Mind you, I had been gone all day doing my own thing, I refused to be around the house. My daughter came over for dinner, and had brought her dog along, and had fed her dog and left the empty dog food container on the counter. He was cooking, and thought I was the one who left the container on the counter, and angrily cussed about how disgusting it was bla bla bla. My daughter told him, "Oh, that was me, I left it there."

ALL OF US KNEW that he thought it was me, and that's why his reaction was to be a complete asshole. WE ALL KNEW for a fact, he would not have talked that way if he knew it was her.

This makes me angry. It hurts my feelings, but it also makes me angry. 

Same thing happened last week now that I recall. I was making dinner, and chose a specific type of noodle based on the fact that it is his favorite, except the damn box was mislabeled or something, and a different type of noodle ended up in the boiling water. Too late to fix! LOL. He *****ed about the type of noodle, and we (daughter and I) explained what had happened, must have been a mishap at the factory.

Last night as he's making dinner, guess what, same brand, same issue and he says, Must be an issue at the factory, like he was FINALLY FACED WITH THE FACT THAT IT WASN'T ME WHO CHOSE THE "WRONG" PASTA SIZE. My daughter, bless her heart, brought it up too, she said, that's what happened to Mom last week. I think she's getting pretty disappointed in him too. That's a shame, his anger isn't directed at her, but she's starting to see it and getting defensive of me.

That makes me sad. That's a tough place for her to be in.

He's such an ASSHAT. By the time he figures his crap out, I'll be so fed up to my eyeballs with the stupidity of it all. If he would only go get some help or talk to someone.

Sorry this got long. LOL


----------



## LisaDiane

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Update, sorry, lots of rambling:
> Dropped off some clothes for my son but was unable to see him.
> Spent yesterday running errands, went for a 5 mile walk by the river and enjoyed Mother Nature.
> Thought about a lot of things.
> 
> Husband has been a little less distant. It's almost like he falls back into habits formed over YEARs of being together and then catches himself and gets angry. It's like he's mad at our comfortableness? Or maybe his own. He's mad at where he is in life right now and how he spends his time? I know that sounds crazy, but perhaps part of that is also being mad about where and who we are as a couple? Clearly, he hasn't actually TOLD me this, it's just a gut feeling. What makes it even worse is that we are where we are mostly because our personalities. He is opinionated and I am easy going. He is confrontational, and I am not.
> 
> Last night he was back to being angry and finding me irritating. I could just tell without even having to hear words, it was in his body language. Mind you, I had been gone all day doing my own thing, I refused to be around the house. My daughter came over for dinner, and had brought her dog along, and had fed her dog and left the empty dog food container on the counter. He was cooking, and thought I was the one who left the container on the counter, and angrily cussed about how disgusting it was bla bla bla. My daughter told him, "Oh, that was me, I left it there."
> 
> ALL OF US KNEW that he thought it was me, and that's why his reaction was to be a complete asshole. WE ALL KNEW for a fact, he would not have talked that way if he knew it was her.
> 
> This makes me angry. It hurts my feelings, but it also makes me angry.
> 
> Same thing happened last week now that I recall. I was making dinner, and chose a specific type of noodle based on the fact that it is his favorite, except the damn box was mislabeled or something, and a different type of noodle ended up in the boiling water. Too late to fix! LOL. He *****ed about the type of noodle, and we (daughter and I) explained what had happened, must have been a mishap at the factory.
> 
> Last night as he's making dinner, guess what, same brand, same issue and he says, Must be an issue at the factory, like he was FINALLY FACED WITH THE FACT THAT IT WASN'T ME WHO CHOSE THE "WRONG" PASTA SIZE. My daughter, bless her heart, brought it up too, she said, that's what happened to Mom last week. I think she's getting pretty disappointed in him too. That's a shame, his anger isn't directed at her, but she's starting to see it and getting defensive of me.
> 
> That makes me sad. That's a tough place for her to be in.
> 
> He's such an ASSHAT. By the time he figures his crap out, I'll be so fed up to my eyeballs with the stupidity of it all. If he would only go get some help or talk to someone.
> 
> Sorry this got long. LOL


What a terrible way to be treated...how hateful and unfair!!!
Let me ask you...what would it be like to have a true, loving partner...what would it feel like in your life...? Do you even remember how it felt when your husband treated you like you were special to him (IF he ever did)...? Why do you think you aren't advocating for yourself more - like setting boundaries with actual consequences around how you will be treated...WHAT is stopping you from rejecting anyone who refuses to treat you like you have any value...??


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

LisaDiane said:


> What a terrible way to be treated...how hateful and unfair!!!
> Let me ask you...what would it be like to have a true, loving partner...what would it feel like in your life...? Do you even remember how it felt when your husband treated you like you were special to him (IF he ever did)...? Why do you think you aren't advocating for yourself more - like setting boundaries with actual consequences around how you will be treated...WHAT is stopping you from rejecting anyone who refuses to treat you like you have any value...??


I do remember how it feels when he treats me like I am special, that's why I chose him all those years ago, and he's treated me that way for the majority of our marriage.

I can't answer the boundaries and consequences question. I need to mull that one over a bit.


----------



## LisaDiane

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I do remember how it feels when he treats me like I am special, that's why I chose him all those years ago, and he's treated me that way for the majority of our marriage.
> 
> I can't answer the boundaries and consequences question. I need to mull that one over a bit.


Ok...I definitely understand, and I think you SHOULD mull that over and find an answer...I will get back to you about it...


----------



## Marriednatlanta

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Update, sorry, lots of rambling:
> Dropped off some clothes for my son but was unable to see him.
> Spent yesterday running errands, went for a 5 mile walk by the river and enjoyed Mother Nature.
> Thought about a lot of things.
> 
> Husband has been a little less distant. It's almost like he falls back into habits formed over YEARs of being together and then catches himself and gets angry. It's like he's mad at our comfortableness? Or maybe his own. He's mad at where he is in life right now and how he spends his time? I know that sounds crazy, but perhaps part of that is also being mad about where and who we are as a couple? Clearly, he hasn't actually TOLD me this, it's just a gut feeling. What makes it even worse is that we are where we are mostly because our personalities. He is opinionated and I am easy going. He is confrontational, and I am not.
> 
> Last night he was back to being angry and finding me irritating. I could just tell without even having to hear words, it was in his body language. Mind you, I had been gone all day doing my own thing, I refused to be around the house. My daughter came over for dinner, and had brought her dog along, and had fed her dog and left the empty dog food container on the counter. He was cooking, and thought I was the one who left the container on the counter, and angrily cussed about how disgusting it was bla bla bla. My daughter told him, "Oh, that was me, I left it there."
> 
> ALL OF US KNEW that he thought it was me, and that's why his reaction was to be a complete asshole. WE ALL KNEW for a fact, he would not have talked that way if he knew it was her.
> 
> This makes me angry. It hurts my feelings, but it also makes me angry.
> 
> Same thing happened last week now that I recall. I was making dinner, and chose a specific type of noodle based on the fact that it is his favorite, except the damn box was mislabeled or something, and a different type of noodle ended up in the boiling water. Too late to fix! LOL. He *****ed about the type of noodle, and we (daughter and I) explained what had happened, must have been a mishap at the factory.
> 
> Last night as he's making dinner, guess what, same brand, same issue and he says, Must be an issue at the factory, like he was FINALLY FACED WITH THE FACT THAT IT WASN'T ME WHO CHOSE THE "WRONG" PASTA SIZE. My daughter, bless her heart, brought it up too, she said, that's what happened to Mom last week. I think she's getting pretty disappointed in him too. That's a shame, his anger isn't directed at her, but she's starting to see it and getting defensive of me.
> 
> That makes me sad. That's a tough place for her to be in.
> 
> He's such an ASSHAT. By the time he figures his crap out, I'll be so fed up to my eyeballs with the stupidity of it all. If he would only go get some help or talk to someone.
> 
> Sorry this got long. LOL


I am late to the party....but have you not actually figured out he is cheating on you? And you seem to be grasping at straws? Get his phone or phone record. Turn off your GPS on your phone to keep him in the dark. Obviously he wants to KNOW where you are, when you are leaving etc....lastly - ask him “When did you start cheating on me?” Not IF. It is not a YES or NO type of question. His answer will tell you everything you need to know. Even if you don’t know - he doesn’t know that. Good luck.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Marriednatlanta said:


> I am late to the party....but have you not actually figured out he is cheating on you? And you seem to be grasping at straws? Get his phone or phone record. Turn off your GPS on your phone to keep him in the dark. Obviously he wants to KNOW where you are, when you are leaving etc....lastly - ask him “When did you start cheating on me?” Not IF. It is not a YES or NO type of question. His answer will tell you everything you need to know. Even if you don’t know - he doesn’t know that. Good luck.


Yeah, you are late to the party, but that's OK, I appreciate your input.

I'm not at the snooping stage, I may never get there, since I'm not sure cheating is a deal breaker or not.
Plus, he does not seem to care knowing my whereabouts, in fact, he seems rather complacent.
When he realized that I had gone somewhere else the other day but not told him, and the whole time he had assumed I was at work, that seemed to give him a pause. LOL


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## Anastasia6

Well keep your chin up. You are handling this your way. I do think you need to do some kind of snooping. But it is completely possible he isn't cheating but just feeling trapped or unhappy with life. It is not ok for him to be taking this out on you.

I think I'd be tempt to EVERY single time he treats you poorly just look at him and say I will not be treated this way. Then state what it is he is doing like being overly critical, cussing, trying to place blame. tone of voice or what have you. Then leave. You can leave the room or the house. Middle of making dinner doesn't matter. Just remove yourself.

If it was close to bedtime go to the bedroom and lock the door. When he wants in say 'no I don't think we should be in the same room and I'm in this one you need to choose another.'


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## AKCStL2000

aine said:


> You have to stop asking him anything or begging for his attention.


Don’t stop talking to him. Whatever the reason is, talking will at least make him not forget that you are there. The key is to not make accusations. Using “I feel” statements puts the ball in his court. If he’s depressed it will show him that you care and may help him to eventually open up. If it’s something else then he will know you are aware of changes in his behavior and it will force him to remember that you have feelings. Maybe that will force him to be honest with you.


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## Marriednatlanta

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Yeah, you are late to the party, but that's OK, I appreciate your input.
> 
> I'm not at the snooping stage, I may never get there, since I'm not sure cheating is a deal breaker or not.
> Plus, he does not seem to care knowing my whereabouts, in fact, he seems rather complacent.
> When he realized that I had gone somewhere else the other day but not told him, and the whole time he had assumed I was at work, that seemed to give him a pause. LOL


Are you cheating on him?


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## Openminded

If he wouldn’t treat your daughter as badly as he currently treats you that tells you he’s looking for excuses to be angry with you. He’s the only one who knows why that is and he’s likely not going to tell you so that leaves you waiting and watching. In limbo. He’s probably trying to decide what it is he wants to do with his life. Hopefully, this won’t take years (it unfortunately does with some). In the meantime, live your life.


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## nextbigadv

Marriesnatlanta hit on what I have been wondering. Does he maybe think you are cheating when he is out on the road and he's doing the 180 no you?


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Update, sorry, lots of rambling:
> Dropped off some clothes for my son but was unable to see him.
> Spent yesterday running errands, went for a 5 mile walk by the river and enjoyed Mother Nature.
> Thought about a lot of things.
> 
> Husband has been a little less distant. It's almost like he falls back into habits formed over YEARs of being together and then catches himself and gets angry. It's like he's mad at our comfortableness? Or maybe his own. He's mad at where he is in life right now and how he spends his time? I know that sounds crazy, but perhaps part of that is also being mad about where and who we are as a couple? Clearly, he hasn't actually TOLD me this, it's just a gut feeling. What makes it even worse is that we are where we are mostly because our personalities. He is opinionated and I am easy going. He is confrontational, and I am not.
> 
> Last night he was back to being angry and finding me irritating. I could just tell without even having to hear words, it was in his body language. Mind you, I had been gone all day doing my own thing, I refused to be around the house. My daughter came over for dinner, and had brought her dog along, and had fed her dog and left the empty dog food container on the counter. He was cooking, and thought I was the one who left the container on the counter, and angrily cussed about how disgusting it was bla bla bla. My daughter told him, "Oh, that was me, I left it there."
> 
> ALL OF US KNEW that he thought it was me, and that's why his reaction was to be a complete asshole. WE ALL KNEW for a fact, he would not have talked that way if he knew it was her.
> 
> This makes me angry. It hurts my feelings, but it also makes me angry.
> 
> Same thing happened last week now that I recall. I was making dinner, and chose a specific type of noodle based on the fact that it is his favorite, except the damn box was mislabeled or something, and a different type of noodle ended up in the boiling water. Too late to fix! LOL. He *****ed about the type of noodle, and we (daughter and I) explained what had happened, must have been a mishap at the factory.
> 
> Last night as he's making dinner, guess what, same brand, same issue and he says, Must be an issue at the factory, like he was FINALLY FACED WITH THE FACT THAT IT WASN'T ME WHO CHOSE THE "WRONG" PASTA SIZE. My daughter, bless her heart, brought it up too, she said, that's what happened to Mom last week. I think she's getting pretty disappointed in him too. That's a shame, his anger isn't directed at her, but she's starting to see it and getting defensive of me.
> 
> That makes me sad. That's a tough place for her to be in.
> 
> He's such an ASSHAT. By the time he figures his crap out, I'll be so fed up to my eyeballs with the stupidity of it all. If he would only go get some help or talk to someone.
> 
> Sorry this got long. LOL




Sad to day but this is one of the signs of cheating when the WS starts treating you really badly. They do this to make you the bad person to justify their cheating and to alleviate their guilt. You really need to get a PI and VAR and find out what is actually going on. How long are you going to let this go on?


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## 3Xnocharm

You need to understand, that if cheating is not a dealbreaker for you… Not sure why in the world that would be, but whatever… That it will be a greenlight for him to be a serial cheater, and he will do this to you for the rest of your life because you let him. He already brought others into your marriage previously, so you have already set that precedent. Is that the kind of husband you think you deserve? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Marriednatlanta

3Xnocharm said:


> You need to understand, that if cheating is not a dealbreaker for you… Not sure why in the world that would be, but whatever… That it will be a greenlight for him to be a serial cheater, and he will do this to you for the rest of your life because you let him. He already brought others into your marriage previously, so you have already set that precedent. Is that the kind of husband you think you deserve?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


He did??


----------



## Marriednatlanta

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Yeah, you are late to the party, but that's OK, I appreciate your input.
> 
> I'm not at the snooping stage, I may never get there, since I'm not sure cheating is a deal breaker or not.
> Plus, he does not seem to care knowing my whereabouts, in fact, he seems rather complacent.
> When he realized that I had gone somewhere else the other day but not told him, and the whole time he had assumed I was at work, that seemed to give him a pause. LOL


Why are you here....?


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## 3Xnocharm

Marriednatlanta said:


> He did??


Unless I have my threads confused...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> he is absolutely incapable of anything resembling emotion unless it's anger.


^^This is what would motivate me to start a full-on investigation as to whether or not he is cheating. I mean, he's being mean and abusive to you. You're not sure what is motivating him to behave this way, he won't tell you, so why don't you look into this to determine if there is another woman????

Okay, it COULD be something else ... but why not rule out adultery right now? I genuinely don't think this about you not being at the "snooping stage." This about you wanting to know where you stand, as his wife, and to at least determine if it's NOT another woman. I mean, c'mon, he doesn't give a good cahoot where you are? You need peace of mind. You are not going to have it unless you start digging into this. 

SERIOUSLY.


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## Beach123

At this point you are training your daughter to stay with a man when he treats the wife like dirt. That’s the example you are showing her.

Since you don’t like the way he’s disrespecting you - a better example to set for your daughter would be to end the marriage when a spouse disrespects you and stops honoring you.

have an honest conversation with him and let him know he’s harming the whole family with his crappy attitude toward you - and you aren’t gonna take his crappy attitude anymore!

work with that counselor to learn what a healthy boundary looks like.


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## frusdil

3Xnocharm said:


> Unless I have my threads confused...


No, you don't, he did do that.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Well keep your chin up. You are handling this your way. I do think you need to do some kind of snooping. But it is completely possible he isn't cheating but just feeling trapped or unhappy with life. It is not ok for him to be taking this out on you.
> 
> I think I'd be tempt to EVERY single time he treats you poorly just look at him and say I will not be treated this way. Then state what it is he is doing like being overly critical, cussing, trying to place blame. tone of voice or what have you. Then leave. You can leave the room or the house. Middle of making dinner doesn't matter. Just remove yourself.
> 
> If it was close to bedtime go to the bedroom and lock the door. When he wants in say 'no I don't think we should be in the same room and I'm in this one you need to choose another.'


YES to the trapped. I know he has said in the past that he feels that way, so that is definitely a possibility.

I like the idea of saying "I will not be treated this way" or simply removing myself or something similar.
I am also wondering if I am imagining some of the "cold shoulder" being directed at me...So while I thought the night before last he was being rather mean towards me, the next morning when I mentioned it to my daughter, she didn't think it was directed at me, and in fact thought he acted pretty decent in general. I was surprised that was her take on things.

So now maybe I'm LOOKING for it and SEEING it when it's not really there or aimed at me? 

I will say, last night he suggested we go out to eat (our county is in phase 2 reopening) and they had a TV on, and he could just not help himself to watching the news and he kept getting angry at the news, as it was all about the pandemic. I actually suggested he ought to stop watching it since he was getting so worked up, but it was like he was unable to look away. He is so OVER the pandemic, if it gets brought up in conversation he immediately rants.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

AKCStL2000 said:


> Don’t stop talking to him. Whatever the reason is, talking will at least make him not forget that you are there. The key is to not make accusations. Using “I feel” statements puts the ball in his court. If he’s depressed it will show him that you care and may help him to eventually open up. If it’s something else then he will know you are aware of changes in his behavior and it will force him to remember that you have feelings. Maybe that will force him to be honest with you.


So are you suggesting that I use the phrase "I feel" or not? Sorry, I'm having trouble following. He does not appear concerned about my emotions AT ALL. I sat with my son in the ER the other night till 3am and not one time did my husband ask me how I was holding up. He didn't hug me, he did NOTHING but bring some items we asked for up to the hospital and then tell me I should get some sleep when I got home. He's concerned about our son, keeps asking me if I have had any updates, but not once has he inquired about me. (granted, I haven't asked how he's doing either)

Maybe that's part of the problem, I'm just so damned good at handling things and that bothers him too? LOL


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Marriednatlanta said:


> Are you cheating on him?


UM. NO. NEVER. I always remove myself from situations that could lead down that path. I never want to cheat, therefore I am careful about the situations I put myself in. His first wife cheated on him, and that has been a big thorn in our marriage that we have had to deal with the fallout of.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

LisaDiane said:


> Ok...I definitely understand, and I think you SHOULD mull that over and find an answer...I will get back to you about it...


Why am I not setting boundaries and Why am I accepting being treated as if I am of so little value?

I definitely need to set some boundaries, but I will say that my confidence level is pretty low. That's why I started dressing nicely and actually putting on makeup recently. Here is my thought process: I'm trying to give him the space he has requested to work through "this" all the while getting my ducks in a row so that when I do hit that wall, or something gives, or I'm done being patient, then I'll have the divorce papers to show him that I am dead serious. I'm not going coming to a gun fight with a knife.

NOW, why I do I think I can't set boundaries for now? For the "space" time. I like Anastasia's idea of stating "I will not be treated this way" or simply removing myself from the situation. 

I am also starting to think that I am hyper sensitive right now and interpreting some of his behavior as being aimed towards me when in fact, maybe he's just angry in general. He is giving most of his friends the cold shoulder as well, he is emotionally withdrawing from just about everyone. It's as if he can't handle anyone needing anything from him on an emotional level. If we talk work, he's absolutely 100% his normal self, but that's because there's no emotional crap associated with work.


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## aine

So how is your son doing? Are you allowed to see him now?
Once visits are allowed, suggest your H goes and sees him alone. Let him do some of the lifting in the family. Maybe you handle it all so well he feels like you don't need him.
He is definitely involved in an affair or considering a way out of the marriage though, his behavior all points to one or both. 
Stop being so damn available and so apologetic too, (it comes across in your posts). You have to put on your big girl panties and stop worrying about your pain in the ass H, what he thinks, what is bothering him, how he is mean, etc. We told you already if you don't want to piss, get off the pot and investigate. You don't want to do anything suggested here and you are not doing the 180 as you are still very wrapped up in him, what he thinks, says, etc. If you were doing the 180 you would not be engaging with him at all, worried about how he treats you etc. You have decided to go on your own path, so be it.


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## Beach123

If you want this situation to change - it’s going to have to be you who changes it.

either approach him head on with calling out his unacceptable behavior or decide you aren’t going to live with his demeanor anymore.

in the end it’s just not right that you and your daughter are living with his bad attitude that makes it necessary to assess everything he’s doing and saying because you two are afraid to call it what it is - really bad treatment from him. I’d tell him it’s got to stop now or it ends the relationship completely.

hopefully you’ll help him understand it’s just not right to treat you so badly.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Openminded said:


> If he wouldn’t treat your daughter as badly as he currently treats you that tells you he’s looking for excuses to be angry with you. He’s the only one who knows why that is and he’s likely not going to tell you so that leaves you waiting and watching. In limbo. He’s probably trying to decide what it is he wants to do with his life. Hopefully, this won’t take years (it unfortunately does with some). In the meantime, live your life.


YES, that's my plan and that's what I'm doing. I am living my life, meeting up with my friends, planning weekend trips without him. I do feel like I owe our marriage some time to go through rough patches, no relationship is always rosy, but I can't imagine I would put up with this for years either... it started in March and then really started getting worse in April, and I'm already struggling with waiting and being patient.

I found out some news yesterday that I think _might_ be a catalyst for him. So I'm somewhat afraid for when he finds out. Our business partner, who also worked with his wife for years and have been married longer than we have, they are getting a divorce. I know this because my family is in HER circle of friends. Apparently she filed, she got fed up with him doing his thing and decided enough was enough. 

My first reaction to hearing that news was OH ****, my husband will think that's a good idea and leave me too.

How pathetic am I? The person in my family I was talking to at the time said to me, "Maybe you will be the one to decide you don't want him?"


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## AlmostEmptyNester

nextbigadv said:


> Marriesnatlanta hit on what I have been wondering. Does he maybe think you are cheating when he is out on the road and he's doing the 180 no you?


I thought about this. But he said there was nothing I could do to "fix" what was wrong right now.
Is there a way to tell if my car has a tracking device on it? Since we quit location sharing on our phones and he said he didn't need to know my location, AND THIS IS REALLY opposite from who he normally is, I was wondering if he already has a tracker on the car.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

3Xnocharm said:


> You need to understand, that if cheating is not a dealbreaker for you… Not sure why in the world that would be, but whatever… That it will be a greenlight for him to be a serial cheater, and he will do this to you for the rest of your life because you let him. He already brought others into your marriage previously, so you have already set that precedent. Is that the kind of husband you think you deserve?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I don't know if it's a deal breaker or not, it depends on the circumstances etc. 
And He did not bring others in to our marriage by himself, we discussed it, we planned it, we dabbled in it together. Like I said before, I would have been content to leave it as fantasy, he wanted to try and make it happen. AND some of that was ALL for me. I'm not going in to details. I'll save it for my "tell All" book later. LOL


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## Beach123

It’s really odd you are always on the defense with him. Who cares if he tracks your car? Why aren’t YOU tracking HIM? It’s HIS behavior that’s changed!

you’re so busy in the defense mode - that you haven’t even considered what actions you could be implementing to be in a more proactive/offense position.

you’re going to have to help yourself... he’s not going to magically change because you’re being too passive!


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## Beach123

Did he mainly invite men into your bedroom activities? Is that was you were saying?

did he ever give the impression he enjoyed men in your marriage?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Marriednatlanta said:


> Why are you here....?



Why am I here on this site? To try and gain insight, advice, moral support etc. 

Let's be honest here, if my marriage was in a good spot I wouldn't be here, which means for 24 years, through all the ups and downs, it never got to this point to where I was at a real loss for how to deal. That means, that I was content and happy for most of 24 years with some tough patches, but those were and seemed manageable and something we could work through.

For 24 years, I have been one of this man's most favorite people, needed, wanted, desired, complimented, given lavish gifts, a trusted business partner, encouraged and admired by him etc. Right now you are only getting one tiny view of him and our marriage, not the whole story. I wouldn't be trying to be patient if I didn't think I had something worth fighting for.

That's why I am here, on this site.
That's why I am not ready to snoop and may never snoop.
That's why I am not sure cheating is a deal breaker.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> At this point you are training your daughter to stay with a man when he treats the wife like dirt. That’s the example you are showing her.
> 
> Since you don’t like the way he’s disrespecting you - a better example to set for your daughter would be to end the marriage when a spouse disrespects you and stops honoring you.
> 
> have an honest conversation with him and let him know he’s harming the whole family with his crappy attitude toward you - and you aren’t gonna take his crappy attitude anymore!
> 
> work with that counselor to learn what a healthy boundary looks like.


I am showing my daughter not to throw in the towel right away on a marriage and life built together over 24 years. His bad behavior has only been around the last 4 months give or take... (I mean, we weren't perfect before, and we used to bicker about stupid stuff, but the past several years have been on a high note, I thought)

AND at some point, if nothing changes, I will have had enough and I will be showing her how to handle that as well. I have a plan, it includes drawing up divorce papers.

I think that's an excellent idea, I will ask my counselor how to set boundaries for the meantime. Thank you for that suggestion.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> So how is your son doing? Are you allowed to see him now?
> Once visits are allowed, suggest your H goes and sees him alone. Let him do some of the lifting in the family. Maybe you handle it all so well he feels like you don't need him.
> He is definitely involved in an affair or considering a way out of the marriage though, his behavior all points to one or both.
> Stop being so damn available and so apologetic too, (it comes across in your posts). You have to put on your big girl panties and stop worrying about your pain in the ass H, what he thinks, what is bothering him, how he is mean, etc. We told you already if you don't want to piss, get off the pot and investigate. You don't want to do anything suggested here and you are not doing the 180 as you are still very wrapped up in him, what he thinks, says, etc. If you were doing the 180 you would not be engaging with him at all, worried about how he treats you etc. You have decided to go on your own path, so be it.


Thanks for asking about my son. He called yesterday and sounded much better vs. Friday when he called. I handed the phone around to my husband and daughter so they could say Hi etc.

Husband has mentioned separation, so yes, he is considering a way out of the marriage.

I am apologetic, it's pathetic. I agree. It's part of my personality, I am a people pleaser, always have been.

I thought I was doing the 180? Just because I'm changing my actions doesn't mean I'm not still worried about what's going on. I'm going to re-read my list I wrote on my phone right now and see if I am following it:

Stop Chasing - check (I haven't asked him to do anything with me & I stayed out Friday & Saturday)
Stop Texting/Calling - he's initiated almost all the texting unless it's work related 
Stop saying I love you - check
Have/get a life - check
Be Mysterious/short answers/Vague - working on this one, did not tell him what I was doing Friday or Saturday afternoon (normally I would give him a run down)
Be Unpredictable - check - I need to work on this one more, some of this is about opportunity
Look Good/Be Confident - working on this one as well

Also, as for having my husband go see the son alone to do some of the lifting in the family, my husband appears to be in a really crappy place right now, is that the healthiest thing for my son? My husband actually said to me, "doesn't everyone think about suicide?"


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> It’s really odd you are always on the defense with him. Who cares if he tracks your car? Why aren’t YOU tracking HIM? It’s HIS behavior that’s changed!
> 
> you’re so busy in the defense mode - that you haven’t even considered what actions you could be implementing to be in a more proactive/offense position.
> 
> you’re going to have to help yourself... he’s not going to magically change because you’re being too passive!


I care if he's tracking my car because how the hell can I be unpredictable and mysterious and vague if he knows exactly where I am all the time? 

Also, we invited both.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> If you want this situation to change - it’s going to have to be you who changes it.
> 
> either approach him head on with calling out his unacceptable behavior or decide you aren’t going to live with his demeanor anymore.
> 
> in the end it’s just not right that you and your daughter are living with his bad attitude that makes it necessary to assess everything he’s doing and saying because you two are afraid to call it what it is - really bad treatment from him. I’d tell him it’s got to stop now or it ends the relationship completely.
> 
> hopefully you’ll help him understand it’s just not right to treat you so badly.


You are correct.
I need to work on setting this boundary NOW, not put up with it till something gives.


----------



## Blondilocks

Does your husband like your business partner's soon to be ex-wife?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Blondilocks said:


> Does your husband like your business partner's soon to be ex-wife?


We don't socialize with them, and NO, I don't see that being a thing AT ALL. Not that age should matter, but she's almost old enough to be our mother.


----------



## lucy999

Going to dinner with your husband is not following the 180.

I've been thinking about your son. I hope that doesn't sound weird. I'm a stranger on the internet. But I truly hope he is getting better each day. He is lucky to have such a great mother.


----------



## Openminded

Whose idea was it to close the marriage? If it was yours, do you think he prefers it to be open? If it was his, do you think he wonders if you’d still prefer an open marriage?

The reason posters suggest cheating is because that’s very often the answer to changes in a spouse. I still think it’s a possibility but it’s obviously not the only reason people change. Sometimes relationships just have an end date. What you once loved is not what you love now. Unfortunately, he’s the only one who knows what’s going on and he’s not talking. I drove myself crazy questioning every detail of my life when my husband was cheating. Sometimes there are just no answers — at least none that make sense to the spouse. Hang in there. I know this is tough.


----------



## Marriednatlanta

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Why am I here on this site? To try and gain insight, advice, moral support etc.
> 
> Let's be honest here, if my marriage was in a good spot I wouldn't be here, which means for 24 years, through all the ups and downs, it never got to this point to where I was at a real loss for how to deal. That means, that I was content and happy for most of 24 years with some tough patches, but those were and seemed manageable and something we could work through.
> 
> For 24 years, I have been one of this man's most favorite people, needed, wanted, desired, complimented, given lavish gifts, a trusted business partner, encouraged and admired by him etc. Right now you are only getting one tiny view of him and our marriage, not the whole story. I wouldn't be trying to be patient if I didn't think I had something worth fighting for.
> 
> That's why I am here, on this site.
> That's why I am not ready to snoop and may never snoop.
> That's why I am not sure cheating is a deal breaker.


I am at 24 years too. I completely understand the “long game” approach. I am taking it as well. I have not updated my thread yet because it is still too early to determine where things are going, although based on last night, I like my chances. Our problem was (in its simplest form) a true lack of emotional connection, which led to a very terrible sex life (in a nut shell). I came here, like you, four years ago semi desperate - the only difference is I took everyone’s suggestions to heart and really acted on them. 

One question I have — were you all swingers at an earlier stage? Don’t be surprised if he comes out as bi or something down the road is my hunch. Sounds like you are willing to have an open marriage too?


----------



## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I thought about this. But he said there was nothing I could do to "fix" what was wrong right now.
> Is there a way to tell if my car has a tracking device on it? Since we quit location sharing on our phones and he said he didn't need to know my location, AND THIS IS REALLY opposite from who he normally is, I was wondering if he already has a tracker on the car.


He may not care where you are because he is done with the marriage but too chicken to exit. Or he's having an affair so you are no longer the woman he's worried about someone else having sex with. 

It's the old I love you but not in love with you. And there is nothing you can change because we don't usually know what makes us fall in love. Once someone is done and turned off that switch it can be hard for it to turn on again. Especially if there is someone else involved even if that is an emotional or hopeful involvement.


----------



## Beach123

Yep, and once you allow anyone to think for a minute they can disrespect you and have little or no consequences ...they tend to think you’re ok with that level of disrespect.

a better approach is to address the change and make sure he knows it’s unacceptable and must stop if you are expected to move forward in the marriage.

stand up for yourself and what’s right! Start having a voice and speaking your truth! It’s perfectly expected to say to him “the way you’ve been treating me has changed and I don’t like it a bit! And I expect you to treat me with kindness and love!” Then I’d add - “now what’s going on with you that caused you to be so grumpy to me?”

start asking!


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Going to dinner with your husband is not following the 180.
> 
> I've been thinking about your son. I hope that doesn't sound weird. I'm a stranger on the internet. But I truly hope he is getting better each day. He is lucky to have such a great mother.


Thank you, he's supposed to come home today. My daughter helped me cleaned his room and got him a new bed set (the washer is broken of all times) and we pampered his hamster with a clean cage and fun treats. The facility is making sure he's got appointments lined up with his therapist (who's been texting me) and his psychiatrist. I'm just scared that he won't follow the plan. He's almost 22, so I can't really force him to take his meds. I was told I would be given lots of instructions when we pick him up.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Marriednatlanta said:


> I am at 24 years too. I completely understand the “long game” approach. I am taking it as well. I have not updated my thread yet because it is still too early to determine where things are going, although based on last night, I like my chances. Our problem was (in its simplest form) a true lack of emotional connection, which led to a very terrible sex life (in a nut shell). I came here, like you, four years ago semi desperate - the only difference is I took everyone’s suggestions to heart and really acted on them.
> 
> One question I have — were you all swingers at an earlier stage? Don’t be surprised if he comes out as bi or something down the road is my hunch. Sounds like you are willing to have an open marriage too?


I'll go back and read your thread this weekend. I have a feeling I will have a lot of "alone" time.

I guess you could say we were swingers. If anyone leans towards being bi, it would be me and he knows this, and if he came out and said he thought he was too, I don't think that would be an issue we couldn't work with considering ALL we have already conquered. It's been about 10 years since we had an open marriage.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> He may not care where you are because he is done with the marriage but too chicken to exit. Or he's having an affair so you are no longer the woman he's worried about someone else having sex with.
> 
> It's the old I love you but not in love with you. And there is nothing you can change because we don't usually know what makes us fall in love. Once someone is done and turned off that switch it can be hard for it to turn on again. Especially if there is someone else involved even if that is an emotional or hopeful involvement.



I think you may have hit the nail on the head. #1. Too chicken. or #2. There is at least an emotional or hopeful involvement. In one of our very brief and unsatisfying "talks" I reminded him that even though his first marriage had been on the rocks for quite some time, he didn't actually LEAVE until I came along, he had said that I gave him hope that he could be happy again. He tried to argue that fact, but I cut him off because he was trying to avoid answering my question "Are you interested in someone else." Now I wish I had let him continue talking. 

Oh well.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Yep, and once you allow anyone to think for a minute they can disrespect you and have little or no consequences ...they tend to think you’re ok with that level of disrespect.
> 
> a better approach is to address the change and make sure he knows it’s unacceptable and must stop if you are expected to move forward in the marriage.
> 
> stand up for yourself and what’s right! Start having a voice and speaking your truth! It’s perfectly expected to say to him “the way you’ve been treating me has changed and I don’t like it a bit! And I expect you to treat me with kindness and love!” Then I’d add - “now what’s going on with you that caused you to be so grumpy to me?”
> 
> start asking!


I had a voice yesterday morning. I asked him to fix the washer. Then I came back and asked him if he would look at something in our son's room, and his answer was "aren't you capable of making that decision on your own?" I stomped out of the room and said over my shoulder, "I'm perfectly capable of all sorts of things without your help." and he could tell I was fed up. Went upstairs and I was stewing, I was going to give him a piece of my mind, went back down to actually do it, and he had totally backed down and was helpful and nice. In the past, if one of us gets worked up, so does the other one... Soooo....that sort of took the wind out of my sails. However, I do feel that I am on the verge, close to the edge of letting some stuff OUT.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Thursday morning I have an appointment with a well known local bulldog attorney.


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thursday morning I have an appointment with a well known local bulldog attorney.


Good for you.

I hope your son's homecoming today is a joyful one.

You've got alot on your plate. Reminds me of what my boss tells me: How does a pygmie eat an
elephant? One bite at a time.


----------



## Nucking Futs

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I care if he's tracking my car because how the hell can I be unpredictable and mysterious and vague if he knows exactly where I am all the time?
> 
> Also, we invited both.


If you want to know if there's a tracker in your car take it to the dealer service department and ask them to check the car for trackers.


----------



## Openminded

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I think you may have hit the nail on the head. #1. Too chicken. or #2. There is at least an emotional or hopeful involvement. In one of our very brief and unsatisfying "talks" I reminded him that even though his first marriage had been on the rocks for quite some time, he didn't actually LEAVE until I came along, he had said that I gave him hope that he could be happy again. He tried to argue that fact, but I cut him off because he was trying to avoid answering my question "Are you interested in someone else." Now I wish I had let him continue talking.
> 
> Oh well.


Some men need the idea of someone, more or less, waiting in the wings in order to escape an unhappy marriage. It’s interesting he tried to avoid answering that question. He may not be cheating, yet, but that doesn’t mean he‘s not considering it. If he were not, the answer should have been an immediate “NO.” Trying to dodge the question says to me he has someone in mind. Hopefully, I’m wrong (I’d love to be).


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## Beach123

I agree he likely has someone in mind.
However, there is nothing wrong with having a boundary and a voice. Saying to him when he has an attitude “Lose the attitude” - that’s calling it what it is and puts a spotlight on HIS behavior. That’s a boundary designed for YOUR mental health.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

My son appears to be in a much better head space.
He's got follow up appointments with his therapist and psychiatrist. I know my husband is concerned, so at least there is that. Three of the kids plus an SO over for dinner. Not unpleasant.

Had a talk with my husband this morning when it all got to me and I was overwhelmed for about 30 minutes...crying....it happens.

AGAIN he said he didn't want to argue, but I've figured out it means, he doesn't want to feel guilty. I called him on it. He admitted he's irritated by me and sometimes "feelings change." OUCH again, nothing new. I asked him if he had a plan, he said no. I suggested that at some point, he might want to come up with one.

I asked him to look up male menopause. I asked him AGAIN about another woman in any way shape or form, again No. I suggested that he's given up on people before, just cut them out when it got too much and now I was one of them, and he agreed, perhaps yes, and I got MAD. He could see I was mad, and he said, "I didn't want to argue"
and I said to him.. I am getting ready to walk away. I am not arguing with you. I am responding. My feelings are hurt, I am allowed to have an emotional reaction but that does not mean I'm arguing. He acknowledged, and I walked away.

Oddly enough, the rest of the day he's been decent. Probably because the stress of "fixing" is off the table.

I get it.


I need to do more self evaluation and planning.
What do I really want?
What is my end goal?

Again, what do I want. I am in it to save my marriage, but also, I can't do that alone.

Am I ok being a roommate for a while for the sake of my son? YES.
Am I ok being a roommate for a while for the sake of our finances. YES. 

Honestly, this is just so far outside of my wheelhouse....I have been#1 for EVER.
How am I now the enemy?

DAMN...this is a hard thing to swallow.

Thanks for listening....appreciate all of you.

I've got two workouts tomorrow
a late lunch with a close friend
attorney & hair appointment the next day followed by dinner w/ a friend.
Workout again on Friday....nieces and nephew visiting this weekend...

a husband who claims he's annoyed by me, but who wants to know why I am not watching "my show" right now as he heads off to bed.


this is confusing. LOL


----------



## Openminded

Well, the difficult truth is that you were No. 1 until you weren’t. That happens more than you might think, unfortunately. For some, love lasts forever but for others it doesn’t. He might not even know why (or, more likely, he does know and just “doesn’t want to argue”). I do think he’s telling the truth about not having a plan at this point.

Could he change his mind and fall back in love with you? Maybe but I wouldn’t really count on it. What could happen next is that some female may catch his attention and he‘ll find himself interested. He’ll tell himself it’s not cheating because he’s in a “bad marriage” and he’s already told you it’s not working and he just wants to be happy again. That’s one possibility. There are others.

He’s going to do what he wants to do so you need to do the same. Focus on you and what’s best for you. Ignore him for now because he obviously doesn’t want to discuss this. I know it’s tough but you’ll get through it.


----------



## aine

You are NOT doing the 180 and will sit on the roller coaster until YOU decide to get off!


----------



## lucy999

Glad to hear your son seems to be in a better place. Thank goodness.

What a rough conversation with your husband. And good for you for showing him your true emotions. You generally come across as "careful" when it comes to your husband and I get why but it's nice to see you telling him how you really feel-- that you're angry and you're allowed to be.

I know this is really hard. One foot in front of the other.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Openminded said:


> Well, the difficult truth is that you were No. 1 until you weren’t. That happens more than you might think, unfortunately. For some, love lasts forever but for others it doesn’t. He might not even know why (or, more likely, he does know and just “doesn’t want to argue”). I do think he’s telling the truth about not having a plan at this point.
> 
> Could he change his mind and fall back in love with you? Maybe but I wouldn’t really count on it. What could happen next is that some female may catch his attention and he‘ll find himself interested. He’ll tell himself it’s not cheating because he’s in a “bad marriage” and he’s already told you it’s not working and he just wants to be happy again. That’s one possibility. There are others.
> 
> He’s going to do what he wants to do so you need to do the same. Focus on you and what’s best for you. Ignore him for now because he obviously doesn’t want to discuss this. I know it’s tough but you’ll get through it.


This is good advice, thank you.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> You are NOT doing the 180 and will sit on the roller coaster until YOU decide to get off!


I'm like 90. LOL.
Look, Rome wasn't built in a day either.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Glad to hear your son seems to be in a better place. Thank goodness.
> 
> What a rough conversation with your husband. And good for you for showing him your true emotions. You generally come across as "careful" when it comes to your husband and I get why but it's nice to see you telling him how you really feel-- that you're angry and you're allowed to be.
> 
> I know this is really hard. One foot in front of the other.


Thank you.
It's overwhelming. I appreciate your encouragement.


----------



## Beach123

I am also glad you’re son is improving. But you need to remind your husband that he still has a son and his son needs love and support from him as well right now!

I’m not so sure it’s wise to have other relatives around this weekend... it seems you all need some quiet time as a family unit to settle down the emotions and traumas you’ve ALL been experiencing!

good for you having a strong voice today!!!!! And do you see how he now realizes you aren’t putting up with his crappy behavior? And my saying so he suddenly seems to shape up a bit?

keep telling him. Tell him when his behavior is unacceptable! Tell him to be kind and supportive to your son! Tell him how to help you with other family members you help out! He still needs to partner up WITH you since you are still married. Let him know how to be your partner.

keep calling him out! Delegate some of your responsibilities to HIM specifically. Keep the house calm if possible and allow him to understand how you feel when things come up... do not wait to point out to him that his behavior isn’t cool when he gets an attitude with you!

ever relationship has a beginning and an end - knowing when it’s the end is key. Don’t stay if it includes you begging him to be decent to you - that’s not love.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

He told you that he has no plan, so time to push him and force one. Tell him he needs to find a new place to stay since he’s making it clear that he is no longer interested in the marriage. Tell him you want him out within thirty days. 

I know you feel like you are standing up to him, but what you are really doing is just allowing him to use you. You are making this too easy for him. He gets to continue his status quo, getting all the benefits of this marriage, while he destroys you mentally and selfishly lives in his little fantasy world. (most likely with another woman) If he thinks he wants out, make it a reality for him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> I am also glad you’re son is improving. But you need to remind your husband that he still has a son and his son needs love and support from him as well right now!
> 
> keep calling him out! Delegate some of your responsibilities to HIM specifically. Keep the house calm if possible and allow him to understand how you feel when things come up... do not wait to point out to him that his behavior isn’t cool when he gets an attitude with you!
> 
> ever relationship has a beginning and an end - knowing when it’s the end is key. Don’t stay if it includes you begging him to be decent to you - that’s not love.


YES, I had already thought about things along this line. I am so used to carrying the load of Keeper of the Family and Homefront due to his/our line of work. Right now however, that's doing no one any favors. Although every time I help him with something, I think to myself, "life's going to be a rude awakening and a touch rough for you without me to organize everything for you." 

An interesting discussion we had yesterday after we picked up our son and were waiting in the car while our son was in the pharmacy getting his new prescription, was how much attention and "help" to give our son. The social worker had warned that there was such a thing as too much, like hovering. Husband started out saying that I had a habit of doing that and then corrected himself, "No, actually, you aren't typically like that." AND I continued his line of thought and said, "yeah, I'm not that type of person or mom, I only get that way when there's something wrong and I'm worried." -- I know we were both thinking about US and our relationship just as much as we were our son's.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

3Xnocharm said:


> He told you that he has no plan, so time to push him and force one. Tell him he needs to find a new place to stay since he’s making it clear that he is no longer interested in the marriage. Tell him you want him out within thirty days.
> 
> I know you feel like you are standing up to him, but what you are really doing is just allowing him to use you. You are making this too easy for him. He gets to continue his status quo, getting all the benefits of this marriage, while he destroys you mentally and selfishly lives in his little fantasy world. (most likely with another woman) If he thinks he wants out, make it a reality for him.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have thought about this too. I will be curious to see what the attorney recommends.
I am reluctant to take this stance, (that's no shocker at this point) but now one reason being our son...I would like to see him stabilize a bit before making any changes that will make his world harder right now.


----------



## Openminded

Yes, there’s your son to consider at this point. My suggestion is to hard 180 him while you get your life lined up. Normally, I’m all for getting things sorted at the speed of light and moving on to the next thing but letting him experience the reality of life without your involvement — and all the emotional coolness that goes with the 180 — will be a good wake-up call for him. However, your son will notice you turning down the emotional thermostat where his dad is concerned so there’s that.


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## Beach123

So next time your family/ husband dumps other tasks onto you - learn to respond with “I’m going to let you do/handle that one”.
Stop handling everything. Start allowing other family members to carry “some” of the the burdens/issues that come up. When I started doing things this wat I started to feel freedom - that I didn’t have to be the one in the family to fix everything... and that other family members became capable of doing things for themselves. It was hard at first but very freeing when others began to be responsible for things they could take care of.

the books co dependent no more by Beattie helped me - and so did the four agreements by Ruiz. Life changed after I read those two books (for the better).


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## frusdil

3Xnocharm said:


> He told you that he has no plan, so time to push him and force one. Tell him he needs to find a new place to stay since he’s making it clear that he is no longer interested in the marriage. Tell him you want him out within thirty days.
> 
> I know you feel like you are standing up to him, but what you are really doing is just allowing him to use you. You are making this too easy for him. He gets to continue his status quo, getting all the benefits of this marriage, while he destroys you mentally and selfishly lives in his little fantasy world. (most likely with another woman) If he thinks he wants out, make it a reality for him.


^^This. And during those 30 days stop all wifely things - he can cook his own food, wash his own clothes and organise his own schedule, or gtfo.


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## Beach123

^^^Seriously, don’t make his life so easy and comfortable. Let him experience what it’s like when you DON’T handle everything.

he can start being responsible for his own self and everything that entails.

I always say it’s easier to go to work! He leaves for most of the week and does what he wants while he works away. You stay home and handle the work you do, the kids, the house and much more!

let HIM handle a TON of $hit at home for a while! You deserve a break! He can make effort for all the relatives you care for. Give him direction - and step back while he experiences how life is for you every day!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> ^^^Seriously, don’t make his life so easy and comfortable. Let him experience what it’s like when you DON’T handle everything.
> 
> he can start being responsible for his own self and everything that entails.
> 
> I always say it’s easier to go to work! He leaves for most of the week and does what he wants while he works away. You stay home and handle the work you do, the kids, the house and much more!
> 
> let HIM handle a TON of $hit at home for a while! You deserve a break! He can make effort for all the relatives you care for. Give him direction - and step back while he experiences how life is for you every day!


I have already considered making plans to get away and making sure he is home to be here for our son and anything else. My plans to leave to see family got postponed, but I will be OK leaving town if I know my husband is keeping an eye out for my son.


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## Beach123

I was referring to the days when your husband IS home. Like when he is around the house put some of the things that you always handle onto him. Even his laundry - tell him he can handle his laundry. The kids - he can start being more responsible for things with the kids and the parents.

mainly - start showing him what it’s like when you don’t do everything for everyone! Make him see how hard it is to handle many tasks for others!

just don’t do his stuff! He needs to get a feel for what it is like when you aren’t making his home life easy. He can handle his own stuff when he is home. Maybe he will appreciate you a little more too.


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## lucy999

I agree with @Beach123
and @frusdil. He can do his own laundry, cook his own meals, run his own errands, etc. Hell, I wouldn't even grocery shop for him anymore.If he asks xyz, shrug your shoulders and walk away. Take that burden off your plate. He has.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Update: Nothing really new. I went to the attorney, thought he had some good advice, left feeling very depressed. I think I'm going to make another appointment with a different attorney, and also make an appointment with a divorce accountant. 

Then I went and got my hair cut and colored, and then I had dinner with a girlfriend. Got home, went for a walk. It was a full day & I was in a good mood mid-day onward. I did not talk to my husband on the phone, but he did text me and I texted and emailed him - most of it work related until the end of the day when he asked me if our friends had mentioned going someplace together. I just texted back "nope" and left it at that. So this morning he calls me and wants to talk work, and then he brings up the friends again and makes some suggestions about what and where we might go with them later this summer.

We had to cancel our original plans with this couple and I figured he would leave it at cancelled, so I was actually surprised he was the one making suggestions, making plans about the near future _together_. These are friends that he has withdrawn from as well (he has withdrawn from everyone really, unless it's work).

I know it was stupid to feel a little bit of hope, but that's exactly how I felt.

I haven't heard from him again all day and I'm not reaching out first.

I'm going to take some notes and try to organize my thoughts. It's so hard to see clearly sometimes because of all the emotions rolling around.

My son appears to be doing pretty decent. His sleep schedule is all out of whack, but he has always had trouble sleeping. His cousin and spouse are coming to visit this weekend (my nephew) and he's really looking forward to their visit, they are more like brothers.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

In my attempt to organize my thoughts, I decided to answer the following questions. Feel free to give me some more questions. LOL
I am also reading a book that I found and I like, so I'll be taking notes from that as well. It's called _How to Save Your Marriage in 3 Simple Steps._

1. Why do I want him? (as in, what attributes and things about him do I find attractive)
2. What makes me happy?
3. Before "this" what did I like MOST about our relationship?
4. What things do I need to forgive him for?
5. What does our BEST marriage/relationship look like?
6. How or When will I know I'm done trying or have reached my limit?
7. Why do I want to work on saving this marriage?
8. What do I fear the most?
9. Am I willing to accept somewhere between "this" and BEST?


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## lucy999

I'm relieved to hear your son seems to be doing ok considering. It'll be good to have his cousin visit. You're such a great mom.

I think it's a real good idea to get another consultation with another atty and talk with a divorce accountant. People get second opinions every day when it comes to medical issues, I see this as no different--your life may change so it's smart.

It's not stupid to feel some hope. I would, too. You want this marriage. 

Here's the thing though. And this may very well be different for you. We are all different. If my husband told me he wasn't happy in generic terms and wasn't forthright with me (I get that your H may not even know) BUT was unwilling to work together on saving the marriage, I would show him the door. I ain't hanging around and doing the pick me dance with some unknown entity. Either he loves me and wants to work together to help this marriage, or he doesn't. I would not give him the luxury of playing house and faux socialization at the expense of my shattered feelings. I just wouldn't. I couldn't. 

He either ****s and gets off the pot, or he stays and works it out WITH ME, not just a warm body in the same house.

But like I said, we are all different. I just hate that you're hanging around (albeit doing a fabulous job of doing your own thing) waiting for him to drop a crumb of attention your way. This push/pull is painful to watch. But I do recognize we all have our own timetable.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> In my attempt to organize my thoughts, I decided to answer the following questions. Feel free to give me some more questions. LOL
> I am also reading a book that I found and I like, so I'll be taking notes from that as well. It's called _How to Save Your Marriage in 3 Simple Steps._
> 
> 1. Why do I want him? (as in, what attributes and things about him do I find attractive)
> 2. What makes me happy?
> 3. Before "this" what did I like MOST about our relationship?
> 4. What things do I need to forgive him for?
> 5. What does our BEST marriage/relationship look like?
> 6. How or When will I know I'm done trying or have reached my limit?
> 7. Why do I want to work on saving this marriage?
> 8. What do I fear the most?
> 9. Am I willing to accept somewhere between "this" and BEST?


I feel like these are all questions your H should be answering, not you. If he's not willing to help you fight for this marriage, all of this is moot.

Maybe I missed it--has he said he wants to work on the marriage?


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## Beach123

I’m glad your son is doing better and you are doing your own thing.

what were your answers to the questions you listed?

ask yourself how you can be happy without H in your life - and what THAT looks like for YOU... and what can you do to start living THAT life! Because - since your H stopped mainly participating in this marriage - you need to build a new life on your own - one that doesn’t include him!

abd I would tell him you don’t intend to go anywhere WITH him when he’s not even IN this marriage... when he doesn’t act respectful and LOVING to you. Tell him he can go on his own. Start showing him that you don’t intend to be around him when he’s just not nice to you and acting like your equal partner in the marriage!


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I'm relieved to hear your son seems to be doing ok considering. It'll be good to have his cousin visit. You're such a great mom.
> 
> I think it's a real good idea to get another consultation with another atty and talk with a divorce accountant. People get second opinions every day when it comes to medical issues, I see this as no different--your life may change so it's smart.
> 
> It's not stupid to feel some hope. I would, too. You want this marriage.
> 
> Here's the thing though. And this may very well be different for you. We are all different. If my husband told me he wasn't happy in generic terms and wasn't forthright with me (I get that your H may not even know) BUT was unwilling to work together on saving the marriage, I would show him the door. I ain't hanging around and doing the pick me dance with some unknown entity. Either he loves me and wants to work together to help this marriage, or he doesn't. I would not give him the luxury of playing house and faux socialization at the expense of my shattered feelings. I just wouldn't. I couldn't.
> 
> He either ****s and gets off the pot, or he stays and works it out WITH ME, not just a warm body in the same house.
> 
> But like I said, we are all different. I just hate that you're hanging around (albeit doing a fabulous job of doing your own thing) waiting for him to drop a crumb of attention your way. This push/pull is painful to watch. But I do recognize we all have our own timetable.



It is painful.
BUT...After 24 years of a mostly strong and fulfilling marriage, I'm not ready to throw the towel in at 2 months of "this ain't so great" followed by 1 month of "this is getting worse" and now into a month of "what the crap?"
I made vows, I don't know what my timetable is or my limit, that's one of my questions that I haven't answered yet.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I feel like these are all questions your H should be answering, not you. If he's not willing to help you fight for this marriage, all of this is moot.
> 
> Maybe I missed it--has he said he wants to work on the marriage?



NO, he has not said he wants to work on the marriage.
And yes, he should be answering the questions as well, but since he's not communicating and I can't force him to, the only person I have to work with is myself.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> I’m glad your son is doing better and you are doing your own thing.
> 
> what were your answers to the questions you listed?
> 
> ask yourself how you can be happy without H in your life - and what THAT looks like for YOU... and what can you do to start living THAT life! Because - since your H stopped mainly participating in this marriage - you need to build a new life on your own - one that doesn’t include him!
> 
> abd I would tell him you don’t intend to go anywhere WITH him when he’s not even IN this marriage... when he doesn’t act respectful and LOVING to you. Tell him he can go on his own. Start showing him that you don’t intend to be around him when he’s just not nice to you and acting like your equal partner in the marriage!



I think the key here with my "strategy" is to mostly just ignore him right now, but be civil.
Demands and ultimatums will just push him away, which is what I think he is subconsciously hoping will happen. He seems rather self destructive and I'm not going to help him in that regard.
Anything negative on my part is only going to reinforce what he's already contemplating, that I'm difficult, or not happy, or irritable, or whatever...whatever is going on in his head it's negative, I'm going to try NOT to prove his point for him.
Doesn't mean I plan on being a doormat though. You all were right about that, no more nasty from him. I'll either point out that there's no need for attitude or leave the room.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> I’m glad your son is doing better and you are doing your own thing.
> 
> what were your answers to the questions you listed?



I haven't answered all of them yet, just started jotting things down...


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## Beach123

I’ve noticed (and correct me if I’m wrong) that you mainly expect your husband to do things around the house when you are away for a weekend.

you can change that. Expect him to participate in the house responsibilities while you are also home.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> I’ve noticed (and correct me if I’m wrong) that you mainly expect your husband to do things around the house when you are away for a weekend.
> 
> you can change that. Expect him to participate in the house responsibilities while you are also home.


Actually he does a lot of the grocery shopping and cooking and babysitting of grandkids.


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## Beach123

I would have a hard time being in the dark as well. I’d say number one priority action is to find out what really IS going on. No matter what length you have to go to - you need to know what the problem is. And if he isn’t gonna tell - it’s up to you to go digging. You need the truth to make any decisions!


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## Prodigal

Maybe your husband isn't having an affair or even contemplating one. Maybe he's embezzling money. Maybe he's in on a drug deal. I mean, who knows? But I prefer to make informed decisions -when I have to. Why even bother seeing an attorney until you know what is really going on? I mean, I REALLY don't get it. This is your husband - your life partner - you're talking about. If it turns out to be an affair, at least you can proceed with divorce action (or at least a separation). 

Why would you want to live in limbo/the twilight zone? SMH.


----------



## aine

lucy999 said:


> I feel like these are all questions your H should be answering, not you. If he's not willing to help you fight for this marriage, all of this is moot.
> 
> Maybe I missed it--has he said he wants to work on the marriage?


I agree with this. You are not in the driver's seat in the scenario. You have handed complete control to your H who has treated you frankly in a very cruel and ****ty way. You are playing a pick me dance and you pretend that you are taking action (by seeing an attorney, albeit good move, doing a watered down version of the 180, ***** footing and skirting around the issues, incase you upset him or push him away, etc) while waiting for him to decide whether he wants you or not. Not a great position to be in, a very weak one but to each his own. You are more valuable that any of this imo, no spouse should allow another spouse to treat them badly without consequences. You need to take back control of YOUR life and let your H know that you will not be treated this way. Hard 180 onwards.


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## Beach123

One person can’t make the marriage work.
Since he’s not 100% in - then he needs to get out! It’s just not a possibility to make the marriage work since he’s not all in. You’re really in a tough position unless he’s willing to get honest with you.

if you have no idea - and no info to work with - then you’re really making all this effort for a life on your own - so you may as well BE on your own and stop the illusion that he’s a partner.

because right now it’s all just games and lies. Lying by omission is still lying - it’s keeping important info from you that could be useful. And that is hurtful and feels like betrayal. So why continue with any man who would have you in that position? Those aren’t the vows you took... he owes you honesty at the bare minimum - so you can make an informed decision.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Update: I understand everyone pushing me to find out what's really going on. I would like nothing more than to have an open conversation with my husband, but what is obvious to me is he wants some space and the more I chase him, and invade that space being needy, the more he's going to want space. He's created that space by being gone a little bit more for work then he has to be, and by being a jerk when he's at home (unless it's about work, then he's very professional and civil).

YES, he has ALL the power here, at least over our relationship. I understand this. I am the one who historically has had more power, since (with a few exceptions) I have always been less needy, so I guess I can sit here for a while and see if there is a turning point. I am not going to die, it's just unpleasant.

While I am "sitting here" figuratively, I am going to work on myself, answer my questions, listen to some podcasts, take notes, continue working out, get my uterus fixed, take a few weekend trips, continue to meet up with my friends for walks and lunches etc. Continue to work. I am taking more time and pride in my appearance, and working on my self confidence. As you can imagine, it's rather low right now, but I am going to fight that feeling.

I have said this multiple times, I'm not at the stage where I want to do deep snooping or hire a PI. I might get there, but right now, I'm taking things at face value, at least right now, and I am not ready to throw the towel in. I took vows, I made a promise, I love him, we have a history, a family, and really really intertwined finances. The grass is NOT always greener on the other side. I have maintained that I was not sure infidelity was a deal breaker or not, that hasn't changed yet. 

YES, there will be a limit, at some point it will come to a head, that is one of my questions for myself that I do not yet have an answer to. OR it could be answered by him, he may make that decision.

I am really starting to believe his crisis is somewhat of a midlife, pandemic, empty nest all combined into one, causing him to feel emotionally drained and exhausted. I'm not ready to kick him when he's down, even though he's hurting me a tremendous amount right now, and in the end, maybe my patience and fortitude will pay off. Maybe it won't.


----------



## Anastasia6

I know you are doing the best you can. Continue to focus on you. 

Do keep your eyes and ears open as much as you can. Have you found a second attorney to talk with yet?

You don't have to be in a hurry to end a long term marriage. Like you said use this time to improve you, do things you want, get your ducks in a row. Also envision what life without him would be like.

Rome wasn't built in a day it doesn't have to get knocked down in a day either.

Ask yourself why is an affair ok? Have you started answering your other questions?


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## Beach123

Ok... in your original question it was misleading because you said “not sure how to proceed”.

so now I can see you don’t intend to do any action (proceed) to find out what’s real. You are “ok” with the status quo for now.

at least you are focused on doing more for yourself.

but I can’t imagine avoiding an honest conversation with the person I’ve been with for decades. A simple conversation would suffice “this isn’t working for me - your attitude with me isn’t acceptable and I can’t live with it anymore” would be honest.

avoiding telling him how his action affect the people in the house - is your way of being dishonest (withholding your truth is still being dishonest). Lying by omission it’s called.

he’s being a dork to you. Why are you afraid of him and being honest about his nasty attitude?

be true to yourself! Would you want your child being treated this way by a spouse? You are setting an example for your kids. Lead by example. Be strong. Putting your head in the sand isn’t being strong.


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## lucy999

I respect the fact that you are not me and we all do things differently. It may not come across in my posts to you, lately I've been trying to make a concerted effort to acknowledge that we do things differently and it's ok! If that's not coming through I sincerely apologize. I want you to feel supported here, not ganged up on or rushed or criticized for not acting a certain way.

I hope your son is having a good time with his cousin and that day by day, he is getting better.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> I know you are doing the best you can. Continue to focus on you.
> 
> Do keep your eyes and ears open as much as you can. Have you found a second attorney to talk with yet?
> 
> You don't have to be in a hurry to end a long term marriage. Like you said use this time to improve you, do things you want, get your ducks in a row. Also envision what life without him would be like.
> 
> Rome wasn't built in a day it doesn't have to get knocked down in a day either.
> 
> Ask yourself why is an affair ok? Have you started answering your other questions?


I have a LIST of attorneys, so I need to pick one. My friend said hers was fair on the billing side while some of the others will milk me for what they can, so I might try my friend's. 

I need to add that question to my notes, and almost did last night but got side tracked. -- adding it now -- What does life look like if this doesn't work out? Also, "how would I 'accept' an affair and still move forward"

I've got pages of notes and lots of answers, but feel as if they aren't complete. Every day I'll go back and fill in a little here and there. Is there one you are particularly interested in the answers to? LOL


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I respect the fact that you are not me and we all do things differently. It may not come across in my posts to you, lately I've been trying to make a concerted effort to acknowledge that we do things differently and it's ok! If that's not coming through I sincerely apologize. I want you to feel supported here, not ganged up on or rushed or criticized for not acting a certain way.
> 
> I hope your son is having a good time with his cousin and that day by day, he is getting better.


Thank you very much, I appreciate your words and support a lot.
My son is very much enjoying his cousin's visit, had a houseful of young adults last night as the power went out in my daughter's apartment. It was a lively crowd. LOL


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Ok... in your original question it was misleading because you said “not sure how to proceed”.
> 
> so now I can see you don’t intend to do any action (proceed) to find out what’s real. You are “ok” with the status quo for now.
> 
> at least you are focused on doing more for yourself.
> 
> but I can’t imagine avoiding an honest conversation with the person I’ve been with for decades. A simple conversation would suffice “this isn’t working for me - your attitude with me isn’t acceptable and I can’t live with it anymore” would be honest.
> 
> avoiding telling him how his action affect the people in the house - is your way of being dishonest (withholding your truth is still being dishonest). Lying by omission it’s called.
> 
> he’s being a dork to you. Why are you afraid of him and being honest about his nasty attitude?
> 
> be true to yourself! Would you want your child being treated this way by a spouse? You are setting an example for your kids. Lead by example. Be strong. Putting your head in the sand isn’t being strong.



My original question came from a place of fear and hurt. I did not know how to proceed and was wondering if others had found themselves in similar situations, wondered if they pushed, or gave their spouses some space etc. I'm still developing my plan for how to proceed, trying hard to process the emotions and make decisions NOT based in fear.

He hasn't been home since Wednesday, but I have made the decision NOT to put up with any attitude from him and call him out if he's acting unkind or irritated with me. I called him out the day we were picking up our son before he left and he immediately backed down and became helpful and was civil the rest of the day. So I know I can call him out and am not afraid to do so. NO MORE WALKING ON EGG SHELLS....I'm just going to be me.

Thank you for the reminder!


----------



## oldshirt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> In my attempt to organize my thoughts, I decided to answer the following questions. Feel free to give me some more questions. LOL
> I am also reading a book that I found and I like, so I'll be taking notes from that as well. It's called _How to Save Your Marriage in 3 Simple Steps._
> 
> 1. Why do I want him? (as in, what attributes and things about him do I find attractive)
> 2. What makes me happy?
> 3. Before "this" what did I like MOST about our relationship?
> 4. What things do I need to forgive him for?
> 5. What does our BEST marriage/relationship look like?
> 6. How or When will I know I'm done trying or have reached my limit?
> 7. Why do I want to work on saving this marriage?
> 8. What do I fear the most?
> 9. Am I willing to accept somewhere between "this" and BEST?


Here is a question for you to ponder - is he reading self help books? 
Is he taking 5 mile hikes in the woods to help clear his head and ponder his issues? Is he seeking perspective and consult with friends and family? Is he posting to online relationship forums seeking advice and 3rd party input? Is he seeing any kind of counselor or therapist to sort out his issues and options and priorities? Is he consulting an attorney or accountant to determine his legal and financial rights and responsibilities in a divorce? Is consulting with appropriate business consultants on keeping your businesses afloat in the event of a divorce? Is he laying awake nights wondering what is going on in his head and trying to come up with strategies to lessen the impact to everyone?

In other words, is he doing ANYTHING to try to address or fix any of these issues? Is he doing anything to actually pack up and move on so that you can do the same?

Is he doing anything besides being a ****?


----------



## Blondilocks

Amazing - 15 pages. Page 1 - my husband is being a ****, won't tell me why and I don't now what to do. Page 15 - my husband is being a ****, won't tell me why and I don't know what to do.


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## Prodigal

Well, I can only give an opinion as to what I would do in this situation. If the OP just needs to vent, then I say vent away. Granted, her choice to not grab the bull by the horns is not what I would do in a similar situation. But, if it works for her, then I say okay. Guess there's not much more we can offer regarding advice. All I can say at this point is, good luck.


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## aine

Prodigal said:


> Well, I can only give an opinion as to what I would do in this situation. If the OP just needs to vent, then I say vent away. Granted, her choice to not grab the bull by the horns is not what I would do in a similar situation. But, if it works for her, then I say okay. Guess there's not much more we can offer regarding advice. All I can say at this point is, good luck.


 👆 This!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> Well, I can only give an opinion as to what I would do in this situation. If the OP just needs to vent, then I say vent away. Granted, her choice to not grab the bull by the horns is not what I would do in a similar situation. But, if it works for her, then I say okay. Guess there's not much more we can offer regarding advice. All I can say at this point is, good luck.


I just wanted to say thanks.
I am a "talker" and apparently a "writer" -- apologies to Blondilocks for putting out 15 pages and the plot hasn't moved much.... but it is helping me a tremendous amount to work through my emotions, even if it appears that I am not taking much action. It feels like I've taken action, but that action isn't necessarily what's been recommended, even though I did ask for advice. Doesn't mean I don't want advice and input, just means I still have to do it my own way. Maybe that's the Aries in me? LOL

I believe that earlier in the thread I mentioned that I have a friend who was going through something similar almost 30 years into her marriage, and as we were talking last year and I was listening to just what a jerk her husband was being, I thought to myself, WHY? WHY does she want him? WHY hasn't she kicked him to the curb?

It was so easy for me to look at her and think, that's not how I would handle it, and yet, here I am going through something similar, and not quite so ready to kick him to the curb when I'm going through it myself.


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## Beach123

Without action, things will definitely remain the same.

I think that’s why all the folks posting here are concerned.

if you wouldn’t want this for your daughter - you should definitely consider taking actions to change things. Change is up to you... not your husband. You have to assume he isn’t going to change.

just throwing out logical reasoning and solutions to what looks like a problem.

he treats you with disrespect because you have allowed it. You’ve been too nice, too compliant and a people pleaser. Stop that - and help yourself. If you won’t help yourself then who will?

You wanted better for your friend - why is there a lower standard for yourself? Think about that - then DO something about it.


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## Openminded

Well, that you’re an Aries explains a lot. 😉


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## Openminded

The difference between someone else’s story and your own story, when it comes down to action, is emotion. 

When emotion is involved, people often end up doing a lot of stuff they swore they would never do. I did.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Openminded said:


> The difference between someone else’s story and your own story, when it comes down to action, is emotion.
> 
> When emotion is involved, people often end up doing a lot of stuff they swore they would never do. I did.


I 100% feel this. 
Also, he's an Aries too....I'm not one for really believing in astrological signs, but sometimes it does give me pause. 
I've been very good about NOT texting or calling while he was out of town.
I made sure to have plans with a friend yesterday evening when he got home, his first night back. I did not want to give the impression that I was sitting around just waiting for him to get back. I showered and primped and went out to dinner and never told him what I was doing or where I was going.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Without action, things will definitely remain the same.
> 
> I think that’s why all the folks posting here are concerned.
> 
> if you wouldn’t want this for your daughter - you should definitely consider taking actions to change things. Change is up to you... not your husband. You have to assume he isn’t going to change.
> 
> just throwing out logical reasoning and solutions to what looks like a problem.
> 
> he treats you with disrespect because you have allowed it. You’ve been too nice, too compliant and a people pleaser. Stop that - and help yourself. If you won’t help yourself then who will?
> 
> You wanted better for your friend - why is there a lower standard for yourself? Think about that - then DO something about it.



Since he is the one who changed, (and recently I might add) there is no reason to believe that he might not change again, work through whatever is eating away at his happiness.

AND YES, I did think about it for my daughter. I thought, he would be so angry if he knew someone was hurting his daughter like he is hurting me. I just think he's incapable right now of caring...like seriously shut down and struggling.

There does seem to be just the tiniest bit of improvement. Granted, he's been out of town and only home for one night, but he wasn't irritated or nasty towards me at all. I guess we shall see how the next several days goes with him being home. 

Also, you are the one using the word "better" for my friend's situation. I couldn't believe she would be willing to put up with bad behavior and work on her marriage UNTIL I was in her shoes. I find that a lot of times in life, the way I think I'll handle a situation (death, illness, etc) is literally nothing like the reality once I'm experiencing it myself. AND many times I will have regret that I didn't have more empathy or understanding. That doesn't mean I have lower standards, at least to me it doesn't, that means I couldn't fully appreciate where she was coming from until I was in a similar situation.


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## lucy999

Ugh I hate to bring this up. Truly I do. And forgive me if this has been discussed and I missed it.

Do you still have sex with your husband? If so , do you think it'd be wise to get std testing just in case? We are talking about the unknown here.


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## Beach123

Looks like he just doesn’t care anymore... you need to care less than he does.


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## aine

@AlmostEmptyNester , you are right, it is always easier said than done and we all move at our own pace.

Please just be careful and guard your heart.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Update: Yes, still having sex, will ask my doc when I go for my appointment next week.
Last night after work we sat together on the couch watching TV and he brought up an upcoming trip with friends that had been cancelled due to the pandemic. Instead of rescheduling together, each set of friends NOW wants to do different things in different places. So we discussed it. I told him I felt obligated to do the one trip, but really wanted to do the other, and he agreed with me when I asked him what he wanted to do.
This would have been a perfect opportunity for him to cancel and stay cancelled and nobody would have called him out on it because the pandemic is the perfect excuse. 
Also, one of those couples asked if we wanted to do a skype date this week and he said yes. (I took myself OUT of the arranging of anything, since I am usually the planner/organizer/secretary etc.) All of these discussions and invitations came directly from friends, and once husband brought it up to me, then I joined in.
AND another friend asked him if we were available to meet a new man she was dating, and he said sure, bring him over, set a date. 

He hasn't been interested in friends since March, and basically faked interest in May when some friends came to visit, he admitted to me that he tried to put on a good show during one of our very short talks.

So, in conclusion, I believe there has been some sort of turning point for him, where he is opening himself back up to friends and me a little bit. If he were still in total shut down mode and stonewalling me, we would not have had any of these discussions or they would have gone a completely different way.

I am being cautious and trying my very best to guard my heart and continue with my plan, but I will take this as a good sign.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Update: Yesterday was decent. Husband's bad attitude towards me appears to be gone. Not that we are suddenly in great shape, but aiming his anger and irritation at me has not surfaced since he came back to town. In fact, yesterday he actually asked me if I would like a ride home from work (I can walk there) since the radar showed rain moving in. Honestly, that surprised me that he was even thinking of me.

I saw my therapist again this morning and shared my questions/notes with her. She asked me to add "What would I like to do that I have given up or held back on doing?" She also gave me some pointers and names of supplements for better sleep. My sleep has been really crappy lately.

She also asked me, once we get to a point where the marriage is healing/better, won't I need an apology or discussion about what actually happened? I told her that I already had that question in my notes.

Tonight we have a Skype date with friends (a couple we are supposed to travel with next month). This will be our first Skype date in months. We shall see how it goes.

FYI: I am continuing with the 
Not Initiating the Texting/Calling/Inviting, 
Doing my Own Thing & Events put on only My Calendar
Attempting to NOT be needy or weak
Attempting to be Attractive & Confident


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## lucy999

I've become a huge believer in melatonin. I've been taking it for about 3 weeks now, about 30 minutes before bed and I sleep through the night which is a huge deal. I used to wake up many, many times a night. And I am an extremely light sleeper, even with ear plugs. I have trouble shutting off my thoughts when it's time for bed so it's been a miracle for me.


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## Beach123

So you’ve been doing your own thing when your H is home - and doesn’t he even ask where you’re going or when you’ll return?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I've become a huge believer in melatonin. I've been taking it for about 3 weeks now, about 30 minutes before bed and I sleep through the night which is a huge deal. I used to wake up many, many times a night. And I am an extremely light sleeper, even with ear plugs. I have trouble shutting off my thoughts when it's time for bed so it's been a miracle for me.


I am having these issues as well. Falling asleep is no problem, staying asleep has been horrible this week.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> So you’ve been doing your own thing when your H is home - and doesn’t he even ask where you’re going or when you’ll return?


No, he never asks. However I realized yesterday that we have cameras aimed at the driveway & front door (things have been stolen a few times out of the driveway and off the front porch) so he at least knows if my car is home or not if he choses to look at the app on his phone. Yesterday he asked me for the grocery list while I was out and I said it was in the kitchen and he said he thought our son was home. (I had just left the house an hour earlier and knew our son was home). I neither agreed or denied, but realized he must have checked the cameras.

I think eventually it will start to bother him, he will eventually realize he has no idea where I am or who I am with and start to wonder. He did care enough to warn us off one of the roads that had a major wreck. It's a bag of mixed signals really. He's still asking if I need things from the store when he goes, and he volunteered to pick me up from work when it was raining, and he warned me of bad traffic.

Although the way our Skype date went last night, I'm thinking we took two steps forward and one step back.

My problem is that I am NOW LOOKING at every tiny detail of interaction and quite sensitive. So I'm taking things personally that aren't really meant to be personal. That said, he did say a few things during our date that were not great.

I had turned to him to watch him smile at our friends and apparently that bothered him and he said, "what's up with your big head?" I knew what he meant was why are you staring at me...it was making him uncomfortable, but he didn't have the right words. So, I played it off and made a joke about my big head and things went on. 

Then he opened a folder that has some of his paperwork in it (we were at our desktop computer) and he saw his new debit card in there, and got all huffy and puffy because he had not realized his new card had come in. So he's telling me I need to stop opening his mail so he doesn't miss important things etc. -- I have been opening his/our mail since the beginning of time.

AND we continued on our Skype date planning a trip with these friends, and remember, I'm really sensitive right now, so I'm starting to feel SOUR and I get up to go to the bathroom and come back and instead of sitting down I remain standing and look down at my husband doing something on his phone and he says to me, "Please do not stand over my shoulder"

So I walk out of the room. He wasn't mean, his tone wasn't mean, but I was really upset. So a minute later he's hollering down the hall asking me what I think about doing XYZ after we do XYZ and I childishly yelled back that he could do whatever the F*CK he wanted to do. (Our friends later told me that he looked like a wounded puppy)

Yeah...not good. AND I apologized to our friends and blamed it on hormones and we kept going...but by that point I had played my hand and overall I'm feeling pretty negative about all of it. Whatever positive steps I thought had happened, really didn't. He's trying, but I'm not sure why, because it's evident to me that he's still struggling with needing _space_ and I don't think he likes me very much right now. And I don't think I like him very much right now.

I still believe I should stay the course, but I am finding that it's easier to say it vs doing it. I don't want to look back and regret that I didn't try a little harder, that I didn't try to see my plan through. It would be so much easier to simply give up right now, but I owe myself after 24 years of creating a life together as a team to fight a little longer for the team. There's a podcast I'm listening to that is expressly for this situation, when it's only one partner wanting to save the marriage, and it's been very helpful. It's called You Can Save your Marriage by Dr Baucom. Of course he sells a program and counseling, but I am finding the free podcast to be quite helpful.

Anyway, this morning I decided to apologize for last night's crankiness on my part, so I did. He didn't really say much and I certainly did not expect any type of apology back from him. He actually said goodbye and I'll see you later as he headed out the door, I honestly expected him to just leave and not say anything.


----------



## lucy999

This may sound like a random question but it's really not. Do you enjoy having sex with him? Or are you doing it for him? To keep him around? How do you feel about it? Not physically of course but mentally. Does he seem to enjoy it?

If this is too personal tell me to step off.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> This may sound like a random question but it's really not. Do you enjoy having sex with him? Or are you doing it for him? To keep him around? How do you feel about it? Not physically of course but mentally. Does he seem to enjoy it?
> 
> If this is too personal tell me to step off.


I enjoy it, and in fact, when I get really depressed or anxious about all of this, I distract myself by thinking about new ways to spice things up, which in turn makes my libido high, which is a good thing. I have been rather adventurous in the past, so it's not completely out of the ordinary, it just hasn't been lately. Lately I've let things get boring, so that has definitely changed recently.....so YES at first I decided to continue with the sex because I thought it would help, but what I'm finding is that it's helping ME probably more. LOL. AND he really only seems to be completely fulfilled if we both reach orgasm and both have satisfaction, I'm actually really paying attention to non verbal cues and verbal ones right now. ALSO...during sex, that is the only time either of us use terms of endearment. He slips up and so do I. 

Why are you asking?


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Why are you asking?


Because I wanted you to be getting something good out of this ****ty deal you're living in, and not sacrificing your self-worth just to keep him.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Because I wanted you to be getting something good out of this ****ty deal you're living in, and not sacrificing your self-worth just to keep him.


It is totally ****ty. I agree. And maybe I am sacrificing my self-worth right now, but I'm in it for the long game. Fingers and Toes crossed it pays off. In the meantime I'm taking it one day at a time AND enjoying the sex if nothing else. LOL


----------



## nekonamida

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Whatever positive steps I thought had happened, really didn't.


I see this happening quite a bit with couples in your shoes. There will be some positive signs and then it turns out nothing really changed. What I think might be happening is that your husband, not being sure of what he really wants, isn't ready to look separated to the rest of the world. He doesn't want to fight so he "plays nice" after you call him out but he still has negative thoughts and feelings about you. He knows he's been putting off friends for too long and jumped at the opportunity to socialize with them as not to raise questions he isn't prepared to answer. Same goes for the trip. It feels too weird not to go at this point. This is why he continues to act cold, distant, and disappointing during the times you thought he might finally be a little bit nicer and open up more. Because nothing has changed emotionally for him, he's still reacting in the same way emotionally.

Are you familiar with John Gottman's The Four Horsemen? It's about the 4 leading things found in marriages that end in divorce: criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling and contempt. Your husband is showing signs of all four and he has a history of dropping his previous marriage in the exact same way that he's doing now. I'm betting he treated his exwife in a similar manner where he was hot and cold, needed space but pretended to be okay in front of others, and gave her the occasional false hope so that he didn't have to go through divorce just yet. He admits to doing it for YEARS! It means that whatever the real issue is, it's from within himself. That resentment is likely from years of him choosing not communicate, not to speak up for himself, and not to get his needs met by fostering an intimate environment with you. It's years of built up issues that you weren't even aware of or given the opportunity to fix. Some of them may only be little miscommunications that he's built up as mountains in his mind but since he won't come out and say them, those self made resentments now run the show. The worst part about it is it's not something you can fix. It's not something he will likely even be honest about because that means having to accept some responsibility for the breakdown of his first marriage and the breakdown of this one too. I get the strong impression that you can 180, scream, cry, pester him, or ignore him until the cows come home but it's not going to affect the outcome. He's completely checked out and he will stay checked out until the inevitable divorce happens.

Come up with a concrete timeline of how long you will wait until you make him give you an answer on the marriage's future. It's not helpful to just say, "Well, I'm not waiting for forever," because giving him time and space very quickly goes from 6 months to a couple years and by then, the marriage has already been dead and gone and you've suffered waiting for nothing. So how much more time does he get to string you along? 2 more months? 6? 1 year?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

nekonamida said:


> I see this happening quite a bit with couples in your shoes. There will be some positive signs and then it turns out nothing really changed. What I think might be happening is that your husband, not being sure of what he really wants, isn't ready to look separated to the rest of the world. He doesn't want to fight so he "plays nice" after you call him out but he still has negative thoughts and feelings about you. He knows he's been putting off friends for too long and jumped at the opportunity to socialize with them as not to raise questions he isn't prepared to answer. Same goes for the trip. It feels too weird not to go at this point. This is why he continues to act cold, distant, and disappointing during the times you thought he might finally be a little bit nicer and open up more. Because nothing has changed emotionally for him, he's still reacting in the same way emotionally.
> 
> Are you familiar with John Gottman's The Four Horsemen? It's about the 4 leading things found in marriages that end in divorce: criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling and contempt. Your husband is showing signs of all four and he has a history of dropping his previous marriage in the exact same way that he's doing now. I'm betting he treated his exwife in a similar manner where he was hot and cold, needed space but pretended to be okay in front of others, and gave her the occasional false hope so that he didn't have to go through divorce just yet. He admits to doing it for YEARS! It means that whatever the real issue is, it's from within himself. That resentment is likely from years of him choosing not communicate, not to speak up for himself, and not to get his needs met by fostering an intimate environment with you. It's years of built up issues that you weren't even aware of or given the opportunity to fix. Some of them may only be little miscommunications that he's built up as mountains in his mind but since he won't come out and say them, those self made resentments now run the show. The worst part about it is it's not something you can fix. It's not something he will likely even be honest about because that means having to accept some responsibility for the breakdown of his first marriage and the breakdown of this one too. I get the strong impression that you can 180, scream, cry, pester him, or ignore him until the cows come home but it's not going to affect the outcome. He's completely checked out and he will stay checked out until the inevitable divorce happens.
> 
> Come up with a concrete timeline of how long you will wait until you make him give you an answer on the marriage's future. It's not helpful to just say, "Well, I'm not waiting for forever," because giving him time and space very quickly goes from 6 months to a couple years and by then, the marriage has already been dead and gone and you've suffered waiting for nothing. So how much more time does he get to string you along? 2 more months? 6? 1 year?


You make some great points.
I think he made the decision to stay and "See" if things get better and possibly even gave himself a date or deadline.
None of his feelings have changed, I agree.
His idea of trying looks nothing like mine, I am actively working to improve myself and give him space, while in my opinion, he is mostly going to just "be" and "Wait" to see if things get better or not.
He hasn't told me this is his line of thinking, but I know him well enough to think it's a possibility.

I agree, it is not something I can fix, it does have to come from him.
I can only work on presenting my best self and offering up the best version of me.
My happiness is something I am responsible for.
His happiness is something he's responsible for.

The biggest difference between the two marriages is that the first wife cheated.
I have not. AND THAT is probably what's eating at him the most, because you are right, he only has to look inside himself for answers and he knows it's not me and he can't transfer it to me. AND then he has to face the guilt and shame of ruining something that was pretty great. That's what he has to deal with if he continues down this path.

What's so weird is that it seemed to come out of the blue. Literally one day I was still his favorite person and the next day NOT. Has he been fooling himself for 24 years? Midlife Crisis? Empty Nest? Mortality? The Pandemic? All of the above? Tired to trying to be someone he's not? -- this might be true, but it's not as if I asked him to be someone different, that would have come from him.

I think I should give it enough time for us to get in a better position financially, that's the practical side of me. If we had to separate everything now, we would both lose a lot of money. That may take an entire year or year and half to accomplish since we have a college kid and some credit card debt that needs to be paid off, and many other joint purchases, businesses etc.


----------



## Beach123

If he’s the conflict avoidant type then you could potentially live in limbo for a long time.

he may not want to be married anymore but he’s not going to look like the bad guy and be the one to divorce you. Essentially, you’ll live for that time with him wanting to be somewhere else while he spends time with you.

I think he’s having an affair and resent you when he’s home. I think the push/pull comes when his OW is either nice to him or not nice to him about being at home. He reacts to her emotional state/demands... and takes it out on you.


----------



## nekonamida

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I think I should give it enough time for us to get in a better position financially, that's the practical side of me. If we had to separate everything now, we would both lose a lot of money. That may take an entire year or year and half to accomplish since we have a college kid and some credit card debt that needs to be paid off, and many other joint purchases, businesses etc.


Don't wait on this. Start going to a financial advisor now just in case things blow up in in the time between now and a year from now when you might be ready.


----------



## Beach123

If you wait until you’re in a better financial position - you’ll Never get divorced. It never happens. You either get divorced or not. The financial part gets sorted out by forced measure.

but I do know this - many times when the cheating one realizes they will lose at least half of the life they’ve always known...they cut it off with the affair person (OW). Yep, nothing like shock and awe of consequences to make them realize they are being a jerk and it’s about to affect EVERY single part of their life and future!

just saying... consequences shown in real time may change his thought process. Exposing bad behavior to other family members may help too.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

The attorney I spoke to said that I should also talk to a divorce accountant, and named the one he recommended. Even if all I do is talk to him for a consultation, it takes him off the market for my husband to use, just like consulting with an attorney does...I would be really surprised if he's seen an attorney since I am the one who takes care of all things financial in our world with the exception of a few of his credit cards. I checked to make sure all the copies of our tax returns for the past several years were in the right spot/cabinet...nothing has been touched, he probably has no clue where they even are.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> If you wait until you’re in a better financial position - you’ll Never get divorced. It never happens. You either get divorced or not. The financial part gets sorted out by forced measure.
> 
> but I do know this - many times when the cheating one realizes they will lose at least half of the life they’ve always known...they cut it off with the affair person (OW). Yep, nothing like shock and awe of consequences to make them realize they are being a jerk and it’s about to affect EVERY single part of their life and future!
> 
> just saying... consequences shown in real time may change his thought process. Exposing bad behavior to other family members may help too.


Part of my original plan WAS to have the papers drawn up and present them when I had reached my limit of trying to save the marriage. I should move forward with that still, even though my goal is NOT divorce, but saving my marriage.
I'll admit, after talking to the attorney, it was depressing to see just how messy everything would be, he hardly had anything to his name after his first marriage, so that divorce wasn't really messy financially speaking. However, when he teamed up with me, he teamed up with someone who had financial goals, knew how to budget, and I have helped him/us acquire assets over the years. It's a very different picture.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> If he’s the conflict avoidant type then you could potentially live in limbo for a long time.
> 
> he may not want to be married anymore but he’s not going to look like the bad guy and be the one to divorce you. Essentially, you’ll live for that time with him wanting to be somewhere else while he spends time with you.
> 
> I think he’s having an affair and resent you when he’s home. I think the push/pull comes when his OW is either nice to him or not nice to him about being at home. He reacts to her emotional state/demands... and takes it out on you.


I still don't think he's having an affair, at least not a physical one. I even snooped in his travel bag this weekend and found nothing out of the ordinary.

We had another Skype Date with different friends, this one went MUCH BETTER on my part, in fact, he actually made eye contact with me this time and we even laughed and reminisced about a previous memory/trip we had taken when our kids were little. 

He decided to grill steaks and asked me to reach out to all the "kids" to get a head count for dinner, and we had a houseful of young adults for dinner. He enjoys grilling, he enjoys feeding people, and I also think it keeps it from being just me and him alone.

I'm not going to lie, I am over analyzing every little thing and will probably drive myself insane doing it. I'm probably driving you all insane as well. LOL.


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> The attorney I spoke to said that I should also talk to a divorce accountant, and named the one he recommended. Even if all I do is talk to him for a consultation, it takes him off the market for my husband to use, just like consulting with an attorney does...I would be really surprised if he's seen an attorney since I am the one who takes care of all things financial in our world with the exception of a few of his credit cards. I checked to make sure all the copies of our tax returns for the past several years were in the right spot/cabinet...nothing has been touched, he probably has no clue where they even are.


Can you access his credit card statements and see if there are any unusual expenses there?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> Can you access his credit card statements and see if there are any unusual expenses there?


No, he handles those, he has them set up electronically, so there's not even a paper statement that comes in.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

I don't really have an update. Work got super busy with two people out (we have a very small office) so if one person is out I try to step in, but with two people out then it's scramble time. I happen to know just enough to be able to do most any position in our office.
Husband has been out of town for two days, comes back today, has a doctor appt. tomorrow (some sort of follow up CT scan that he swears he never got the results of the first test because of the Pandemic.) I've had tests and scans before where they are watching a spot or two and then we do a follow up just to make sure there are no changes. I suspect this is similar, but I did wonder at first if he had received bad news medically and this might have caused some of his withdrawal. Our industry has a history of exposure to toxic chemicals and he says he requested the tests to begin with just as a matter of staying on top of his health. I have no reason to NOT believe him, and this goes along with past behavior.
I do not believe he is hiding anything medically, in fact, he asked me to call the doctor's office back and set up his appointment.

I know, I know, you all are going to be mad at me for that. I'm not going to lie, I did it, but I was resentful about it. One day he's saying he's thought about separation, and a week later he's asking me to call his doctor back and set up an appointment.

Anyway, I decided to use the opportunity to dig, but the receptionist said there was no notes anywhere, it was just a follow up scan. She's probably adept at maintaining privacy laws while trying not to piss off a spouse...I can't have been the first spouse to dig. 

I am trying to set up a short weekend trip to see my family again this weekend, couldn't go on that first planned trip due to my son's "breakdown" but he appears to be doing better and pretty steady. He's actually taking the time to do things he enjoys with friends, which I find to be a good sign.

I am still taking notes and listening to this podcast on saving marriages and even bought the book. I have read the book twice. I am finding that I am really struggling with NOT being negative, but I recognize that the more negative I am, the more it feeds in to whatever negative thoughts he's having. It will just reinforce whatever thought pattern has brought him to withdraw.

Last night I was going to make a list of ALL the things he has done that were less than stellar for our relationship, but then I decided I wasn't in the right frame of mind for that.

So instead I wrote down a list of why I am a BADASS and why I should BE and FEEL Confident.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> So instead I wrote down a list of why I am a BADASS and why I should BE and FEEL Confident.


I love this! I like how you are focusing on YOU.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Still a mixed bag with the husband. He came home yesterday evening, sat next to me on the couch, we talked, mostly about work for a bit, but a couple other things before he turned on the TV. He was not unpleasant, still guarded, but no snarkiness at all. He was falling asleep while we were watching tv and after he got caught up on a couple of his cooking shows while I checked work emails, he picked something we both enjoy, and eventually gave me the remote and told me to pick one of my shows, so I did. He still stayed out on the couch with me and tried to stay awake for at least one episode. LOL. He goes back out of town after his doctor's appointment today, and I have a dinner date planned with a friend tonight. Might have to postpone the weekend trip to my family another weekend...someone they know and spent a brief time outside on a patio with tested positive for the damn virus and I shouldn't take the risk of bringing it back to the vulnerable people in my circles here. The one family member who was exposed just got tested and might have the answer in time for us to go this weekend. Nobody has any symptoms, not even the one who tested positive. Go figure. WTH. I was really looking forward to seeing them, hanging out, getting away from the house, sitting by the pool, having some heart to heart talks etc. I guess waiting one more weekend won't kill me. Does anyone else feel like they are dealing with KARMA from a different, much nastier person? LOL I can't help but feel like that....like, who the hell does KARMA think I am? Maybe I was a nasty ***** in a past life!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

My family member who was exposed test results were negative, so my daughter and I went for the weekend to see my family. We relaxed, played board games, finally had some pool time for the first time this whole summer since they have a pool. We decided to come back next weekend as well.


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## She'sStillGotIt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> ....I am the one who takes care of all things financial in our world with the exception of a few of his credit cards.


That's odd. He wants you to take care of all the bills *except* for a couple of credit cards only HE uses and only HE pays the bills for?

How many *MORE* red flags are you going to pretend you don't see?



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I still don't think he's having an affair, at least not a physical one. I even snooped in his travel bag this weekend and found nothing out of the ordinary.


Well then, he MUST not be up to anything because we ALL know cheaters are* incapable* of making sure their travel bag is free of evidence before they bring it home. 🙄 

If I were you, I'd be making it my business to get access to his credit cards that only HE uses and pays for. I'm willing to bet you're going to find a few things you knew nothing about.


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## Divinely Favored

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> AGREE, begging is not attractive, I think that would be worse in fact, turn him off of me more. He's exhausted emotionally, I can tell, so if I come across as needy, needing more from him, he's just going to shut me out more (even though we both agreed during our talk that I was EASY GOING and didn't have a lot of demands. Seriously, I am content to fill my day with work, errands, exercise bla bla bla and be independent far more then he ever was. He was always the one insisting the evening was family time etc.)
> 
> Also something good to think about, what would I do differently to make things better if given the chance? I think he would have to communicate to me better what that would look like for him, because I thought I was always considering him with the dec





AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I don't know if it's a deal breaker or not, it depends on the circumstances etc.
> And He did not bring others in to our marriage by himself, we discussed it, we planned it, we dabbled in it together. Like I said before, I would have been content to leave it as fantasy, he wanted to try and make it happen. AND some of that was ALL for me. I'm not going in to details. I'll save it for my "tell All" book later. LOL


When he commented about your easy going/going along being part of the problem...this was what i thought about. You said something about fantasy and him making it happen. Him coming from past relationship where he was cheated on, i was thinking he wanted you to say Hell No! Like a test that he wanted you to pass, but you agree


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## Divinely Favored

I see something differend from my perspective past. 

1st. What are your ages?
2nd How often are yall intimate?

I had low T at 37. His difficulty staying awake is a flag. With low T i was an emotional zombie...not to mention the estrogen levels get more dominant and men become more grumpy and *****y.

Now to #2. You had mentioned about slacking on this...so to speak. To a guy who this is his love language...filling in other areas non starters. Just like a man that does a lot for his wife but only talks to her 1x a week. Her LL being communication she could care less about him keeping up yard and house. Someone who is not getting enough air and it is the one you love that is in charge of the oxygen tank. 

I may be wrong..but some of the comments i read and i keep thinking no.no.no you dont understand. But i do not know him, but i see alot of myself, how i was, in him.

My dad was the white night for my mom. Young woman just divorced with kid, dad was the knight returning from VietNam to save the day. Mom admitted she did not love him when married but grew to love him.Dad thought she was the sun.

Mom had some anger/depression issues, hystorectomy and hormones wacked. Living with her was like walking on eggshells. Dont upset your mother. He became a yes baby what ever you want. He loved her but she became verbally abusive in her interaction, especially toward him. Sex was im sure nonexistent. She became a roommate to him. 

He started becoming resentful of her. My sister and i always wondered why he would stay with her.

I started down the same road. Nice guy that was happily married. Wife had a sharp tongue and i have many, many scars from it. I took it and burried the pain and anger like i had seen my dad do for soo long. Sex life started dwindling...that is my LL. Wife kept house up well, i was helping hoping for time together....rarely. I started resenting her for withholding the air i needed. 

I started drifting away because the connection and togetherness was few and far in between. I started shutting down my emotions because of the hurt and feeling unloved. I mentioned something once about our time and she was like we did just the other day...um no...it was 12 days ago. She was not even aware it was that long. I was getting pissed at this point. People get so busy with crap, they do not realize how much time has elapsed. Write it on a calander...person would be surprised.

I felt like since she did not give a crap for me i was going to try to get in shape to see if it was her attraction to me. I dropped 50 lbs in 1.5mo and buffed up with weights. She about crapped and i was getting serious pushback. I felt if she does not love me then i will be ready for the next wife. As she had multiple times made comment about leaving

One night i was upset and she knew it. I could no longer hold it in. It was like a cancer that was eating me up inside. She got me to opwn up by her being genuinely concerned and making me feel safe to be vulnerable. She broke the dam and over 2 days i let it all out...she was stunned...resentment over things that i had been holding for years. I was crying and saying I don't want to be my dad! She felt like she did not know who i was...she was pretty devistated. 

It started a new chapter titled communication. Now if she does something i dont like or agree with, she knows it. Our marriage is better than ever. Many things she did were **** tests....she was pushing me to get me out of the shell of my dad and be the man and leader God intended me to be.

Think about what he may be resentful for and let him see you as a safe place to be vulnerable with out been seen as weak or snarkiness about him opening up.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Divinely Favored said:


> I see something differend from my perspective past.
> 
> 1st. What are your ages?
> 2nd How often are yall intimate?
> 
> I had low T at 37. His difficulty staying awake is a flag. With low T i was an emotional zombie...not to mention the estrogen levels get more dominant and men become more grumpy and *****y.
> 
> Now to #2. You had mentioned about slacking on this...so to speak. To a guy who this is his love language...filling in other areas non starters. Just like a man that does a lot for his wife but only talks to her 1x a week. Her LL being communication she could care less about him keeping up yard and house. Someone who is not getting enough air and it is the one you love that is in charge of the oxygen tank.
> 
> 
> Think about what he may be resentful for and let him see you as a safe place to be vulnerable with out been seen as weak or snarkiness about him opening up.



Yes, I agree, his favorite way to express love is physical, cuddling, intimacy, sex, grand gestures etc. I think that means that would also be his favorite way to receive love, and I have fallen down on that job. I agree, he's probably resentful about that and it's built up over time. It's not that it was non-existent, it just wasn't as high on my priority list as it was his, so it became boring and not frequent enough.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That's odd. He wants you to take care of all the bills *except* for a couple of credit cards only HE uses and only HE pays the bills for?
> 
> How many *MORE* red flags are you going to pretend you don't see?
> 
> 
> 
> Well then, he MUST not be up to anything because we ALL know cheaters are* incapable* of making sure their travel bag is free of evidence before they bring it home. 🙄
> 
> If I were you, I'd be making it my business to get access to his credit cards that only HE uses and pays for. I'm willing to bet you're going to find a few things you knew nothing about.



I'm not pretending to NOT SEE red flags, I have already decided I'm working on the marriage. 4 months of this recent, unusual/bizarre, sometimes mean & snarky behavior does not signal it's time to throw in the towel after 24 years of a good, solid marriage.


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## Beach123

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I'm not pretending to NOT SEE red flags, I have already decided I'm working on the marriage. 4 months of this recent, unusual/bizarre, sometimes mean & snarky behavior does not signal it's time to throw in the towel after 24 years of a good, solid marriage.


but consistently you say you won’t look at info you could look at - info that could give you info to make an informed decision.

you keep saying you’re working on the marriage but you won’t find out info that necessary for the M to actually work/be healthy.


----------



## m.t.t

I'm sorry you are going through this. My concern here is that you are wanting to work on the marriage, but working on the marriage takes two people not one.



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> What's so weird is that it seemed to come out of the blue. Literally one day I was still his favorite person and the next day NOT. Has he been fooling himself for 24 years? Midlife Crisis? Empty Nest? Mortality? The Pandemic? All of the above? Tired to trying to be someone he's not? -- this might be true, but it's not as if I asked him to be someone different, that would have come from him.


This is not weird at all. I know what this looks like as I have lived it a few times. This is classic he either met someone or something happened with someone that he already knew. It sounds like he has fallen for someone else. The 24 years really has nothing to do with it.




AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I'll admit, after talking to the attorney, it was depressing to see just how messy everything would be, he hardly had anything to his name after his first marriage, so that divorce wasn't really messy financially speaking. However, when he teamed up with me, he teamed up with someone who had financial goals, knew how to budget, and I have helped him/us acquire assets over the years. It's a very different picture.


I'm getting from what you have written that you are a doer, you are organized take care of the bills etc. I feel like you are taking the same approach to your marriage. My concern is that you are trying to fix the marriage but you are not getting your ducks together, He may leave you out of the blue, I've seen many women blindsided while they were trying hard to fix a distant husband. Please don't think of the expensive divorce and be prepared for a step down in lifestyle. I've known women of a certain age to find themselves homeless because they were not proactive in protecting themselves or they were blindsided.

Investigate quietly and then you will know how to proceed. Don't wait for him to choose you.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I'm not pretending to NOT SEE red flags, I have already decided I'm working on the marriage. 4 months of this recent, unusual/bizarre, sometimes mean & snarky behavior does not signal it's time to throw in the towel after 24 years of a good, solid marriage.


But how can you work on the marriage when you don't know what's wrong? You're shadowboxing.

4 months is a really long time to be mistreated. You're settling for crumbs. And ****ty crumbs at that. It's unfortunate you're looking at the length of your good marriage when you should really be looking at the length of his crap-ass behavior towards you. That's almost half a year! 

Have you made a decision as to how long you're going to put up with this?
And to be clear--you do realize you're doing the pick me dance, right? The pisser is (among many other things) that you have no idea who or what you're dancing against.


----------



## MattMatt

@AlmostEmptyNester You mentioned toxic chemicals. Would these possibly include heavy metals? Heavy metal toxicity (even in relatively small doses/levels) can cause severe problems with mental health, anxiety, etc.


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## Beach123

My gut says he mistreats you’re when he feels an extreme connection to the OW. He doesn’t necessarily mistreat you when he is lukewarm about his OW.

that’s just based off my prior experience... and all the mistreatment I tried to figure out. Only in hind sight does it make sense to me. When I was in it (living it) I couldn’t make sense of it and I couldn’t figure out what was wrong... until I actually found the solid evidence when I started searching.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> My gut says he mistreats you’re when he feels an extreme connection to the OW. He doesn’t necessarily mistreat you when he is lukewarm about his OW.
> 
> that’s just based off my prior experience... and all the mistreatment I tried to figure out. Only in hind sight does it make sense to me. When I was in it (living it) I couldn’t make sense of it and I couldn’t figure out what was wrong... until I actually found the solid evidence when I started searching.


This makes a lot of sense...he did say there was nothing I could do to "fix it" which would indicate OW, even if only an emotional affair, or mostly an emotional affair, since I know his work schedule and how many different places/states he goes, logistically it would be really difficult to be physically seeing OW on the regular, but with devices and internet etc, an emotional affair via text and facetime would definitely be a workable/logistical option.

But why would he agree to go on a vacation together with me when he had the perfect opportunity to keep it cancelled? THAT makes no sense to me, in fact, I'm kind of scared of the whole thing because I believe a part of him is using it as a "test" to determine where we go from there. Originally I took it as a good sign, but now I'm not so sure. He's since then managed to "orchestrate" being separate due to work or me being out of town. I think he thought I was going to ask him to go with us this weekend when we visit family again, because before I could finish my question if he would watch the dog, he was telling me how he HAD to be home this weekend to catch up on some stuff. 

So he's avoiding spending time at home, with me, and yet has agreed to go on a trip where we will be with each other (and another couple w/kids) for six days straight, two of them 10 hours in a car alone.

It makes no sense.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> But how can you work on the marriage when you don't know what's wrong? You're shadowboxing.
> 
> 4 months is a really long time to be mistreated. You're settling for crumbs. And ****ty crumbs at that. It's unfortunate you're looking at the length of your good marriage when you should really be looking at the length of his crap-ass behavior towards you. That's almost half a year!
> 
> Have you made a decision as to how long you're going to put up with this?
> And to be clear--you do realize you're doing the pick me dance, right? The pisser is (among many other things) that you have no idea who or what you're dancing against.


Lucy, the podcast and book I am listening to say that the WHY doesn't matter as much as we think it does. It is also geared towards people who are working on their marriage when only one person wants to work on it. It's designed for people in a similar situation. I don't know if it's going to work, but I'm willing to try it out. I am hoping eventually I will learn what's wrong, other than what tiny bit he's told me, but the author of the books says sometimes they NEVER fully explain or talk about what really happened. That would be tough though, I believe in order to get to our strongest and best relationship, I would need to know what happened. Anyway, a lot of this is speculation, I can't see the future, I don't know if this will work, but I'm going to try it.

I do not know what I am dancing against, and I do not think it matters. He's going to see what he wants to see, and if I'm negative and ugly it will only reinforce whatever negative thought pattern he's got going on in his head, regardless of what's causing it. If I am confident and taking care of business, and pleasant and calm, it's going to be a lot harder for him to say to himself "see, she always over reacts and complains." <------- again, I'm guessing, but just trying to be logical here as to what could bother him.

I don't know when I will get tired of all of this. AND don't think that I don't have my doubts. Is he really worth all of this, is our marriage really worth it? I have those moments, but since I made the decision to work on things, that's what I'm doing first. Perhaps I'll revisit the negative thoughts later down the road depending on how things go.


----------



## Bluesclues

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> This makes a lot of sense...he did say there was nothing I could do to "fix it" which would indicate OW, even if only an emotional affair, or mostly an emotional affair, since I know his work schedule and how many different places/states he goes, logistically it would be really difficult to be physically seeing OW on the regular, but with devices and internet etc, an emotional affair via text and facetime would definitely be a workable/logistical option.
> 
> But why would he agree to go on a vacation together with me when he had the perfect opportunity to keep it cancelled? THAT makes no sense to me, in fact, I'm kind of scared of the whole thing because I believe a part of him is using it as a "test" to determine where we go from there. Originally I took it as a good sign, but now I'm not so sure. He's since then managed to "orchestrate" being separate due to work or me being out of town. I think he thought I was going to ask him to go with us this weekend when we visit family again, because before I could finish my question if he would watch the dog, he was telling me how he HAD to be home this weekend to catch up on some stuff.
> 
> So he's avoiding spending time at home, with me, and yet has agreed to go on a trip where we will be with each other (and another couple w/kids) for six days straight, two of them 10 hours in a car alone.
> 
> It makes no sense.


My first husband had a five month affair and we went on a family vacation with friends and their kids at about the 2 1/2 month mark. Apparently they had not progressed to intercourse yet, just heavy petting and lots of texting. This vacation was one of the best weeks of our lives, the tension that had been between us disappeared, and we headed home feeling close, feeling the love. It wasn’t just me, he said he felt it too and the smile on his face proved it.

The very next night after we unpacked he went out and had sex with her for the very first time. I didn’t find out about the affair for another few months but when I did and had the timeline, that fact was a major gut punch. It made no sense. To me it seemed a reason to put the brakes on the affair and see that love and happiness was still possible in our marriage and our family. He said he felt so good about himself after the trip that it actually gave him the confidence to follow through with next leveling their affair. 

You can’t use the “well if he was having an affair why would he do X when he could easily do Y” logic to figure out if he is or isn’t having an affair. Logic doesn’t always work in affairs.


----------



## Violet28

In a previous post, you said that looking back you had let him make many of the decisions and just went along with it because you are easy-going. It seems like you are still doing this, you are letting him decide how much you are around each other, if you see friends together, if you'll go on vacation together. Who is initiating the sex between the two of you, you or him? Who introduced the new, more adventurous sex? Was it him and you just went along with it? 

I could not be having sex with someone who several weeks ago told me he may want to end a 24 year marriage and didn't know, or was at least not willing to share why. He's not the person you married right now. Currently, he is someone that is hurting you and is considering hurting you much more. I am not saying this to hurt you and I hope it does not offend you but suddenly starting to have a lot more sex and start implementing new sex practices after he tells you he might want to leave reeks of desperation to me. He may think this too. Sex with him while he's considering separation would turn my stomach. I wouldn't even sleep in the same bed with him right now.

The 180 is as much a state of mind as it is action oriented. You don't have to be rude, naggy, dismissive or bitter acting towards him. You can still be pleasant and say 'no, i'm not comfortable going on a vacation with our friends and pretending to be a happy couple when we aren't' or 'no, I don't want to have sex with you when the future of our marriage is in question'. You can be polite and matter of fact while stating your boundaries. 

You said it feels like he has all the power right now, it feels that way because you are giving him all the power. Take some back. You are still letting him lead and going along with it because it's easier for him. He's not the husband that vowed to love, protect and cherish you. That is one of the hardest things to accept because once you thought this person would die for you and the thought of leaving you never crossed his mind. He is now someone that can have great sex that explores your fantasies at night then get up the next day and ignore you while turning off the tracker on his phone. You might want to start considering that he may be someone that you need to emotionally protect yourself from.


----------



## m.t.t

Violet28 said:


> You said it feels like he has all the power right now, it feels that way because you are giving him all the power. Take some back. You are still letting him lead and going along with it because it's easier for him. He's not the husband that vowed to love, protect and cherish you. That is one of the hardest things to accept because once you thought this person would die for you and the thought of leaving you never crossed his mind. He is now someone that can have great sex that explores your fantasies at night then get up the next day and ignore you while turning off the tracker on his phone. You might want to start considering that he may be someone that you need to emotionally protect yourself from.


 I have to agree with what violet said but I just wanted to also say to you I did what you are doing. One of my biggest regrets, when I was going through this, was I made myself available for sex and the sex was amped up and I still lay next to him every night. I totally understand what you are doing BUT you are not respecting yourself by doing this. I totally understand your current mindset though but it's not at all helpful for your marriage and more importantly you. Boundaries. I think he will respect you more as well.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Bluesclues said:


> My first husband had a five month affair and we went on a family vacation with friends and their kids at about the 2 1/2 month mark. Apparently they had not progressed to intercourse yet, just heavy petting and lots of texting. This vacation was one of the best weeks of our lives, the tension that had been between us disappeared, and we headed home feeling close, feeling the love. It wasn’t just me, he said he felt it too and the smile on his face proved it.
> 
> The very next night after we unpacked he went out and had sex with her for the very first time. I didn’t find out about the affair for another few months but when I did and had the timeline, that fact was a major gut punch. It made no sense. To me it seemed a reason to put the brakes on the affair and see that love and happiness was still possible in our marriage and our family. He said he felt so good about himself after the trip that it actually gave him the confidence to follow through with next leveling their affair.
> 
> You can’t use the “well if he was having an affair why would he do X when he could easily do Y” logic to figure out if he is or isn’t having an affair. Logic doesn’t always work in affairs.


OUCH. 
Thank you for sharing that.
Did you try to work things out after finding out?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Violet28 said:


> In a previous post, you said that looking back you had let him make many of the decisions and just went along with it because you are easy-going. It seems like you are still doing this, you are letting him decide how much you are around each other, if you see friends together, if you'll go on vacation together. Who is initiating the sex between the two of you, you or him? Who introduced the new, more adventurous sex? Was it him and you just went along with it?
> 
> I could not be having sex with someone who several weeks ago told me he may want to end a 24 year marriage and didn't know, or was at least not willing to share why. He's not the person you married right now. Currently, he is someone that is hurting you and is considering hurting you much more. I am not saying this to hurt you and I hope it does not offend you but suddenly starting to have a lot more sex and start implementing new sex practices after he tells you he might want to leave reeks of desperation to me. He may think this too. Sex with him while he's considering separation would turn my stomach. I wouldn't even sleep in the same bed with him right now.
> 
> The 180 is as much a state of mind as it is action oriented. You don't have to be rude, naggy, dismissive or bitter acting towards him. You can still be pleasant and say 'no, i'm not comfortable going on a vacation with our friends and pretending to be a happy couple when we aren't' or 'no, I don't want to have sex with you when the future of our marriage is in question'. You can be polite and matter of fact while stating your boundaries.
> 
> You said it feels like he has all the power right now, it feels that way because you are giving him all the power. Take some back. You are still letting him lead and going along with it because it's easier for him. He's not the husband that vowed to love, protect and cherish you. That is one of the hardest things to accept because once you thought this person would die for you and the thought of leaving you never crossed his mind. He is now someone that can have great sex that explores your fantasies at night then get up the next day and ignore you while turning off the tracker on his phone. You might want to start considering that he may be someone that you need to emotionally protect yourself from.


YES it is hard to accept he is not who he vowed to be. I have no idea how to protect myself emotionally. Do you have any pointers?

He does have all the power, or at least most of it.
I have power over my actions and my choices, my reactions, my attitude etc. That's it.
My weird logic on the sex was simply two-fold. One to show him that I was capable of making it more interesting and spicy, and two, I know one of his biggest 'love languages' is touch, and it's currently one of the few times we touch. Men typically feel closer after intimacy and sex while it's the opposite for women, typically. YES IT REEKS OF DESPERATION, but I don't act clingy or lovey, I just try to enjoy it in the moment, which I am glad to say that I am enjoying it. I've had my period for the majority of the last 20 days and he's been gone and I've been gone, so it's not like sex has come up recently anyway.

Gynecologist appointment got postponed to next week due to Covid. Damn Pandemic. I'm going to look into getting an ablation so that I do not have my period most of the time. Getting old sucks. LOL.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

m.t.t said:


> I have to agree with what violet said but I just wanted to also say to you I did what you are doing. One of my biggest regrets, when I was going through this, was I made myself available for sex and the sex was amped up and I still lay next to him every night. I totally understand what you are doing BUT you are not respecting yourself by doing this. I totally understand your current mindset though but it's not at all helpful for your marriage and more importantly you. Boundaries. I think he will respect you more as well.


Respect is important. I'm struggling with respecting him right now, because of his treatment of me, in other areas of his life I do respect him still. How can that even be I wonder?

Maybe he doesn't respect me anymore, and I am not talking about just the sex, that's actually really minimal to me right now. Although it might not be so minimal if I found proof of an affair, even an emotional one.
I need to give this some thought. Perhaps I should quit offering the sex, but show him the fun new toys I've purchased and hint that I'd really like things for us to improve so we can try them out.

I saw my therapist for the 3rd time yesterday. She was pretty supportive and helpful and gave me some pointers on reaching my personal goals of self improvement. She also gave me some insight into why I tend to over react to small things. She said that there is usually an emotional reason why, and I should try to figure that out. As for my husband, she is convinced based on what I've told her, that he's depressed and needs to work through some things, and advised me not to feed into his anger when he expresses how angry he is about the pandemic, or something political etc. She also said I should take the love languages quiz online and amp up my own love language with him. Mine ended up being words of affirmation - 40%. I found it interesting that she did not say to amp up what I thought his love language was, but mine towards him.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

MattMatt said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester You mentioned toxic chemicals. Would these possibly include heavy metals? Heavy metal toxicity (even in relatively small doses/levels) can cause severe problems with mental health, anxiety, etc.


He's had a physical this year which was "normal" , and the two scans done at his request to follow up on exposure to some of our industry by products. I do not know the results of the 2nd scan, so I need to ask him if he's heard anything. I'll also ask him if the physical tested for things like heavy metal toxicity, although I'm sure he will just cut me a sideways glance like I sprouted another head.


----------



## MattMatt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He's had a physical this year which was "normal" , and the two scans done at his request to follow up on exposure to some of our industry by products. I do not know the results of the 2nd scan, so I need to ask him if he's heard anything. I'll also ask him if the physical tested for things like heavy metal toxicity, although I'm sure he will just cut me a sideways glance like I sprouted another head.


What are your industry byproducts? Please let me know, as I used to do this kind of stuff for a living in a different century!


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## DownByTheRiver

Why haven't you just hired a private investigator to follow him when he says he's going on a trip and see what he's doing and also when he's in town in case she's in town and his trips are legit? You have a right to know. This just about has to be an affair.

Also, before you even do that, pay for a simple background check online. If he's gotten into some legal trouble, it will show up.


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## Violet28

The best way I can think of to protect yourself emotionally is to not ignore or disregard your own needs, wants or feelings in favor of his. Which is, of course, the opposite of what you've been doing for the last 24 years. If you stuff your own emotions, then they will come out in another way at another time. One thing I've seen happen is that the partner that's being rejected will break their back to win back their spouse and to act happy or like 'everything's ok'. Say he does re-engage in the relationship at some point, then you might find yourself feeling really angry at him for putting you through this and start sabotaging the relationship in other ways. 

Would you feel comfortable moving his things to another bedroom or sleeping in a different room yourself? This may show him that he can't leave you hanging while he 'explores' if he wants to be your husband or not. When he asks why you can say 'I'm not ok with sharing my bed with someone who will not share his thoughts and feelings with me and is not sure if he wants to be my husband'. He has something to lose here too. You can be perfectly pleasant and polite when you say this. He knows you are waiting for his next move and 'his decision' but you have choices and power too.


----------



## Violet28

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Show him the fun new toys I've purchased and hint that I'd really like things for us to improve so we can try them out.


I would not do this, men aren't stupid and might see this as a manipulation like 'if you do xyz, I'll do xyz'. His problem isn't sexual, it's mental and emotional, he already knows that you are perfectly willing to explore new sexual experiences. The time to bring out the new fun toys is after he has told you he loves you and doesn't know what he was thinking but what he does know is that he wants to spend the rest of his life making this up to you. What I would do is break out the new vibrator, get real loud and let him hear you going to town while he's sleeping on the lumpy futon in the study.



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> She also gave me some insight into why I tend to over react to small things. She said that there is usually an emotional reason why, and I should try to figure that out.


Could the reason you may overreact about small things is that he has hurt you with his words and actions and being hurt repeatedly eventually makes us angry? But you don't want him to see you as angry about how he is acting so you're finding other things to become angry about so that you can let some of that anger out because the alternative is to have it rolling around within you causing havoc?



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> She also said I should take the love languages quiz online and amp up my own love language with him. Mine ended up being words of affirmation - 40%. I found it interesting that she did not say to amp up what I thought his love language was, but mine towards him.


If your husband was just depressed and not using his depression to question your relationship, this would be great advice. Love languages are great for couples who are rebuilding or repairing their relationship but that is not the situation you are in right now. Is your husband willing to go to therapy with you? Have you discussed with him? Would he be willing to put time and effort into attending therapy and really exploring issues in the relationship?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Violet28 said:


> I would not do this, men aren't stupid and might see this as a manipulation like 'if you do xyz, I'll do xyz'. His problem isn't sexual, it's mental and emotional, he already knows that you are perfectly willing to explore new sexual experiences. The time to bring out the new fun toys is after he has told you he loves you and doesn't know what he was thinking but what he does know is that he wants to spend the rest of his life making this up to you. What I would do is break out the new vibrator, get real loud and let him hear you going to town while he's sleeping on the lumpy futon in the study.
> 
> 
> 
> Could the reason you may overreact about small things is that he has hurt you with his words and actions and being hurt repeatedly eventually makes us angry? But you don't want him to see you as angry about how he is acting so you're finding other things to become angry about so that you can let some of that anger out because the alternative is to have it rolling around within you causing havoc?
> 
> 
> 
> If your husband was just depressed and not using his depression to question your relationship, this would be great advice. Love languages are great for couples who are rebuilding or repairing their relationship but that is not the situation you are in right now. Is your husband willing to go to therapy with you? Have you discussed with him? Would he be willing to put time and effort into attending therapy and really exploring issues in the relationship?


Great advice all the way around.
As for the over reacting, that's been going on for a couple years, not just recently, but I do need to explore the roots a bit. I already asked him if he would see a therapist when he admitted to me how miserable he was, and he said that was "not his thing."

Last night he came home, and was almost like his "old" self. He was relaxed, a little playful, sexually playful, and NO I did not turn him down. This is the first time he has initiated in a long time, in fact, since May. And again this morning...it wasn't affectionate, but it feels like a turning point of sorts. He even opened up about an issue (related to our past/boring/routine sex). and was honest with me, and then got defensive, and I had to remind him I wasn't angry or arguing with him. I wasn't angry, I was actually trying to tell him that I was working on the thing he was complaining about, it's like he thinks I'll be defensive, so he beats me to it.

I guess it might be kind of late for separate bedrooms after last night & this morning. BUT I do really like the idea of holding off on the new toys until WE are both working on the relationship. 

AND YES, I do feel some resentment and anger and if we get to a better place, I will have to deal with that anger in a productive way, or it will be a problem.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

DownByTheRiver said:


> Why haven't you just hired a private investigator to follow him when he says he's going on a trip and see what he's doing and also when he's in town in case she's in town and his trips are legit? You have a right to know. This just about has to be an affair.
> 
> Also, before you even do that, pay for a simple background check online. If he's gotten into some legal trouble, it will show up.


I've mentioned this previously, but we work together and I know his schedule, I know the jobs he's going on and the other guys he's working with, in six different states, I think logistically it would be really hard for another person to have the freedom to meet up with him, half the time the schedule gets changed at the last minute due to emergency jobs that crop up. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it would be a logistical nightmare in my opinion. 

Also, he had to get a background check not long ago for one of his trade licenses -- yes, I do the paperwork for those, so his record was clean.

I might get to a point where I want to pursue these avenues, but I'm not there yet.
Don't think the thoughts aren't there, clearly they are based on the title of my thread.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

MattMatt said:


> What are your industry byproducts? Please let me know, as I used to do this kind of stuff for a living in a different century!


The nastiest ones are asbestos and refrigerant.


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## MattMatt

Damn. That is not good.


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## Violet28

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I guess it might be kind of late for separate bedrooms after last night & this morning. BUT I do really like the idea of holding off on the new toys until WE are both working on the relationship.


Moods and feelings are variable, do not think that one good night of sex means that he's back in your corner. Men are very good at separating emotion from sex. You said the sex in the morning 'was not affectionate', what does that mean?


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## BHB4408

It you "feel" like he might be cheating, that means a lot. If you felt he was depressed, angry, or any other thing, you wouldn't be feeling like he might be cheating. I was cheated on by a wonderful Christian wife after 25 years. Little signs made me think she "might" be cheating, and I spent two years in Limbo wondering what was going on. In my case, I wish I would have listened to my gut. She was. After I found the truth, I could see many things that were red flags that I didn't see at all before the truth came out. Some red flags were glaring, and I convinced myself that I shouldn't be even thinking about them because she wasn't that type of woman.

Please put a lot of emphasis on what your gut is telling you. Take action now. The Limbo-State can do tremendous damage to you. The longer you try to be non-judgmental, the longer you will be in Limbo. If he is not cheating, he will wake up and take action to prove it to you. Even angry, depressed, stressed or what other type of man he is, would never want you to think he's cheating. If he doesn't care that you suspect it, you need to let him go before the damage he does to you is permanent. Take action now. Don't wait because you don't want to jump to conclusions.

Let your gut be a glaring light in the situation.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

BHB4408 said:


> It you "feel" like he might be cheating, that means a lot. If you felt he was depressed, angry, or any other thing, you wouldn't be feeling like he might be cheating. I was cheated on by a wonderful Christian wife after 25 years. Little signs made me think she "might" be cheating, and I spent two years in Limbo wondering what was going on. In my case, I wish I would have listened to my gut. She was. After I found the truth, I could see many things that were red flags that I didn't see at all before the truth came out. Some red flags were glaring, and I convinced myself that I shouldn't be even thinking about them because she wasn't that type of woman.
> 
> Please put a lot of emphasis on what your gut is telling you. Take action now. The Limbo-State can do tremendous damage to you. The longer you try to be non-judgmental, the longer you will be in Limbo. If he is not cheating, he will wake up and take action to prove it to you. Even angry, depressed, stressed or what other type of man he is, would never want you to think he's cheating. If he doesn't care that you suspect it, you need to let him go before the damage he does to you is permanent. Take action now. Don't wait because you don't want to jump to conclusions.
> 
> Let your gut be a glaring light in the situation.


Thank you for your insight. When you say that the limbo state does tremendous damage, are you referring to the hurt of not knowing what's going on and feeling like you are on a roller coaster ride of emotions? OR is there more to it, not that that's not enough, but just wondering.
I do feel like he's depressed and angry, and there are glaring red flags.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Violet28 said:


> Moods and feelings are variable, do not think that one good night of sex means that he's back in your corner. Men are very good at separating emotion from sex. You said the sex in the morning 'was not affectionate', what does that mean?


NO, I do not feel like he is now in my corner. It was just a change, and it was playful, he was playful. This is the first time he has initiated since May. However, none of the sex came with affection. There has been no affection, no cuddling, no hand holding, no back rubs. I can also separate emotion from sex, I am enjoying the sex, but I miss the affection.


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## Violet28

How has he been the last several days?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Violet28 said:


> How has he been the last several days?


I just got home from being out of town all weekend. He was only comfortable talking about work and whatever show was on the TV, seemed completely uninterested in talking about anything else, but he wasn't rude. The relaxed and playful person from Thursday was not present, but then work has us both pretty wound up. He's still a mixed bag. I believe he gets comfortable and "Falls" into old habits, like occasionally being thoughtful and considerate, and then remembering he's unhappy with me and pulling back.

He is generally pretty unhappy with all the stuff going on in the world right now, and I'm an easy target to direct the anger towards, so some of it I get because I do the same thing, however, that does not explain most of his attitude towards me - as far as no more affection - and he's done a very piss poor job of explaining WHY. Most people contributing on this thread think it's an affair, but I am not convinced. AND even if it is an affair, I'm not sure if that's a deal breaker for me or not. 

I've got a week ahead of me where I need to be on my A game, I'm doing my best BadAss this week...got too much to take care of with work and life before we head off for our 5 day vacation. I plan on being pleasant, calm, confident, looking my best, and ignoring the elephant in the room. I'm being accused of playing the "pick me" routine but I prefer to look at it like this:

He's going through a crisis, he's unable or unwilling to talk about the details. He needs space emotionally and sometimes physically to work through his issue(s) and I'm doing my best to give him that space. No begging, no pleading, no weak needy person here. I'm going to focus on ME, putting my best foot forward regardless of how poorly he's acting. If he's acting unkind or unfair towards me, I will call him out and set my boundaries. When I look back on this time, I want to know that I tried my very best to save my marriage AND become the best person I could be. If it doesn't work out, I'll be devastated, but I won't regret my positive actions.


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## She'sStillGotIt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> So he's avoiding spending time at home, with me, and yet has agreed to go on a trip where we will be with each other (and another couple w/kids) for six days straight, two of them 10 hours in a car alone.


LOL...that sounds like pure Hell to ME, so I give the man credit because I wouldn't do it - and I'm a female.

Lots of cheaters still try to keep up the facade of family life while they're having an affair. All life doesn't just come to an abrupt halt simply because they're cheating - they still attend weddings and funerals and go on vacation and go to their kid's soccer games and their wives' company parties. And what kind of a d*ck would he look like to the other couple if he were to bow out of your vacation at the 11th hour? Of *course *he's still going to go. He's likely not going to be very good company though.

I used to read Other Woman support boards and it was pretty common for these men to be on vacation with their wives and calling or texting their girlfriends and crying and moaning to them about how 'horrible' their vacations were and how their wives made them go and how they wished they could be back home with them instead on an exotic island with their awful wives and blah blah blah.

Haven't read the whole thread but I'll assume you're still making excuses for why he couldn't possibly be cheating - such as his schedule being a 'logistical nightmare' so he couldn't _possibly_ make plans with anyone else. And then there's the suggestion of the possible failure of his work PPE which may be exposing him to the horrible chemicals he comes into contact with. Are all his coworkers *also* being exposed due to faulty protective gear, or is it just consistently your husband? 🙄

I have such deja vu. I feel like this is the thread by 20year, "Found a Condom in my Husband's Bag" all over again.


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## She'sStillGotIt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> *He needs space emotionally and sometimes physically .....*



And where is he going to get that "space" he so desperately needs?

You have no idea what a walking cliche this guy is.


----------



## azimuth

Hi, I'm new to the thread but been lurking and read it, I just wanted to say something. I believe your husband has always created an environment where you were able to "look the other way" until now. He put up a facade that everyone could believe in and you very much thought it was real. But now something happened, either he fell in love with the OW, or got dumped by an OW or something, and he can't put up the facade anymore. My ex acted just like your husband is acting now. I did the pick me dance for two years while he acted like this. Even after he moved out, I still continued to see him and try to get back together with him, to save the marriage and for our young child. I don't want that for you. It's a hellish way to live. I knew I needed to break it off and end it but I just couldn't, until something truly despicable happened. It was enough for me to end it then and there and never look back. I hope it doesn't take you two years like it did me. After that, it was a relief, a weight was lifted off my shoulders. I had no regret, except that I wish I'd done it much sooner. I wish I hadn't given my daughter mixed signals. My ex is a POS and he didn't deserve the family with me, and he was just using me.

I'm worried that if your husband goes back to the "facade" you will be happy and take him back. I don't think that's enough. You deserve an explanation for how he's treating you. He can't treat people that way. I think if true growth happens, you grow together, fix whatever happens, or move on and go separate ways, it would be a more authentic path forward. I think looking the other way, rug sweeping, is a disservice to the 24 years of marriage and years of your life you have put into the relationship. Blessings on your path forward.


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## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> AND even if it is an affair, I'm not sure if that's a deal breaker for me or not.


Why do you feel it may not be a deal breaker? I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts on this.


----------



## LisaDiane

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> AND even if it is an affair, I'm not sure if that's a deal breaker for me or not.


The problem is that the affair may be a deal/marriage breaker for HIM...and he most likely won't care how YOU feel about it...


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## Nucking Futs

Prodigal said:


> Why do you feel it may not be a deal breaker? I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts on this.


Probably because they've already opened the marriage.


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## Violet28

He may not be cheating but he might be thinking about it. He was hesitant when you asked if there was someone he was interested in. That's one reason I wouldn't be having sex with him right now, what if you find out he was imagining you were someone else during sex? I wouldn't go on vacation with him and the other couple, either. You are helping him to perpetuate the lie that 'everything's fine' to those around you. He knows other people would think he's a dog for how he's treating you.


----------



## Prodigal

Nucking Futs said:


> Probably because they've already opened the marriage.


Yes, I recall the OP mentioning that early in this thread. However, that was years ago and this is now. I'm wondering if she's fine with opening up the marriage again. Since both of them agreed to it way back when, why would he be hesitant to tell her now that he's seeing someone else? (If he actually is ...)


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## lucy999

I'm concerned about STDs.


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## Beach123

A planned vacation is required when any OW starts making demands- and plans!

it send the OW a signal that she’s demanding too much and the MM has a need to spend time calming his wife down.

so it’s two fold. It manipulated the OW and appeases the wife. He wins all around because the wife gets all happy (because it’s manipulation) and the OW starts to be more compliant because he’s paying attention to his wife/marriage.

his manipulative plan usually works on both women.


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## m.t.t

azimuth said:


> Hi, I'm new to the thread but been lurking and read it, I just wanted to say something. I believe your husband has always created an environment where you were able to "look the other way" until now. He put up a facade that everyone could believe in and you very much thought it was real. But now something happened, either he fell in love with the OW, or got dumped by an OW or something, and he can't put up the facade anymore. My ex acted just like your husband is acting now. I did the pick me dance for two years while he acted like this. Even after he moved out, I still continued to see him and try to get back together with him, to save the marriage and for our young child. I don't want that for you. It's a hellish way to live. I knew I needed to break it off and end it but I just couldn't, until something truly despicable happened. It was enough for me to end it then and there and never look back. I hope it doesn't take you two years like it did me. After that, it was a relief, a weight was lifted off my shoulders. I had no regret, except that I wish I'd done it much sooner. I wish I hadn't given my daughter mixed signals. My ex is a POS and he didn't deserve the family with me, and he was just using me.
> 
> I'm worried that if your husband goes back to the "facade" you will be happy and take him back. I don't think that's enough. You deserve an explanation for how he's treating you. He can't treat people that way. I think if true growth happens, you grow together, fix whatever happens, or move on and go separate ways, it would be a more authentic path forward. I think looking the other way, rug sweeping, is a disservice to the 24 years of marriage and years of your life you have put into the relationship. Blessings on your path forward.


I could also have written this !


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> Why do you feel it may not be a deal breaker? I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts on this.


It would depend on the reason, if there was any remorse etc.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> A planned vacation is required when any OW starts making demands- and plans!
> 
> it send the OW a signal that she’s demanding too much and the MM has a need to spend time calming his wife down.
> 
> so it’s two fold. It manipulated the OW and appeases the wife. He wins all around because the wife gets all happy (because it’s manipulation) and the OW starts to be more compliant because he’s paying attention to his wife/marriage.
> 
> his manipulative plan usually works on both women.


I understand your explanation and it makes sense.
but the truth is I am not happy and I think it's obvious and I don't think he cares.
This vacation isn't making me happy, so maybe it's all about OW and not me.
I'm not *****ing or complaining either, so maybe it's easy to ignore, but I refuse to follow him around demanding answers and begging for information.
Also, this vacation was NOT PLANNED....a different one was planned and it got cancelled.
This one was thrown together 20 days ago and I believe we are both exhausted just thinking about it.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I'm concerned about STDs.


I forgot to ask my gynecologist when I went yesterday. POOP. Too much on my mind, however I do need to call them back to discuss scheduling my ablation and I'll bring it up then.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

LisaDiane said:


> The problem is that the affair may be a deal/marriage breaker for HIM...and he most likely won't care how YOU feel about it...


This is most definitely a possibility. He does not seem to care much about me or my feelings right now, even though occasionally he's considerate. At least he's stopped being down right mean to me.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> Yes, I recall the OP mentioning that early in this thread. However, that was years ago and this is now. I'm wondering if she's fine with opening up the marriage again. Since both of them agreed to it way back when, why would he be hesitant to tell her now that he's seeing someone else? (If he actually is ...)


Opening up the marriage is not on the table for discussion currently, but it has given me perspective on love, intimacy, and sex. The 3 don't always go together, and an affair might or might not be a deal breaker for me because it would depend on the reason, if there were any remorse etc.

I have decided that I am going to try and figure out the code to his phone...I have to slyly watch him "type" it when he thinks I'm not looking and then snoop when he's in the shower or something similar. I am coming to the conclusion that I need some evidence, or a more concrete way to rule it out, and it would be on his phone most likely, either text or whatsapp messaging.

He left his watch home the other day, but I couldn't figure out that code.


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> This one was thrown together 20 days ago and I believe we are both exhausted just thinking about it.


Then why are you going? It sounds like torture to me.


----------



## LisaDiane

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Opening up the marriage is not on the table for discussion currently, but it has given me perspective on love, intimacy, and sex. The 3 don't always go together, and an affair might or might not be a deal breaker for me because it would depend on the reason, if there were any remorse etc.
> 
> I have decided that I am going to try and figure out the code to his phone...I have to slyly watch him "type" it when he thinks I'm not looking and then snoop when he's in the shower or something similar. I am coming to the conclusion that I need some evidence, or a more concrete way to rule it out, and it would be on his phone most likely, either text or whatsapp messaging.
> 
> He left his watch home the other day, but I couldn't figure out that code.


I would stand before him with his phone in my hand and say, "what's the code, I want to check your phone because you are acting so badly towards me and won't tell me why", and if he wouldn't do that, I'd LEAVE. I'd come back if he was willing to work with me and be honest, but "limbo" for me is painful, I can't just SIT in it.

But that's ME...I am willing to tear the whole thing down to get to the truth, because TRUTH MATTERS to me. I refuse to have any relationship without it. That isn't what matters to you as much (and that's ok) - but you need to decide for yourself what DOES, and work towards THAT.
You keep saying, you don't want to throw your long marriage away over his attitude, and that's a good perspective to have, as long as THAT is what's going on - that it's only his attitude/depression/mood. If it's something else, you need to know so you can choose your own boundaries with what's really going on.

For ME, if a man doesn't want ME or isn't sure if he wants ME, for ANY reason, I have NO problem stepping out of his way so he can MOVE the eff ON... Would I be sad...? YES, but if he can't see MY value, then he's going blind and I don't want HIM. I don't need that dead-weight holding me down!!

YOU are AWESOME!!! I can tell from everything you've written that you are an asset to him, a devoted partner, and an exciting woman! HE is the lucky one!! If he is losing his vision of your awesomeness, HE doesn't deserve the benefit of it!


----------



## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I forgot to ask my gynecologist when I went yesterday. POOP. Too much on my mind, however I do need to call them back to discuss scheduling my ablation and I'll bring it up then.


I hope your ablation goes as well as mine. I think it is awesome under advertised procedure. I had almost no after effects of the procedure and it completely cured my meningorrhea.


----------



## 2&out

Did I miss something and there is now proof of an affair ? Last I "knew" was just a bunch here trying to convince you that is was a fact even thought there is no proof of it or even half strong evidence - and you have pretty open access to his communications. Is living in suspicion making things better ? 

I'm going to state and ask something I don't intend to be mean but may sound it. You are starting menopause - correct ? I went part way thru it with a partner who was in it's grip and it wasn't fun - it was all me not living up to expectations, "changing", being secretive even thou I felt I wasn't and really don't think I made any changes from the way things had been, etc. Fact was 85% of it was her changed view of me and life - not me. We didn't make it. I got to the point were I was unhappy and felt she never would be happy again so I threw in the towel.


----------



## Beach123

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I understand your explanation and it makes sense.
> but the truth is I am not happy and I think it's obvious and I don't think he cares.
> This vacation isn't making me happy, so maybe it's all about OW and not me.
> I'm not *****ing or complaining either, so maybe it's easy to ignore, but I refuse to follow him around demanding answers and begging for information.
> Also, this vacation was NOT PLANNED....a different one was planned and it got cancelled.
> This one was thrown together 20 days ago and I believe we are both exhausted just thinking about it.


seems dreadful.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

OP mentioned "if there's any remorse." I don't know. Let's ask men. Do you feel remorse about getting sex outside of whatever relationship you're in, or is it just fear or losing the partner? 

Maybe it's just who is most vocal, but I've not noted a lot of remorse from men cheating for sex. So many of them justify it as their most important need not being met, a concept most women can't wrap their head around. Or "it just happened." 

And then there's the whole "tip of the iceberg" problem.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

LisaDiane said:


> I would stand before him with his phone in my hand and say, "what's the code, I want to check your phone because you are acting so badly towards me and won't tell me why", and if he wouldn't do that, I'd LEAVE. I'd come back if he was willing to work with me and be honest, but "limbo" for me is painful, I can't just SIT in it.
> 
> But that's ME...I am willing to tear the whole thing down to get to the truth, because TRUTH MATTERS to me. I refuse to have any relationship without it. That isn't what matters to you as much (and that's ok) - but you need to decide for yourself what DOES, and work towards THAT.
> You keep saying, you don't want to throw your long marriage away over his attitude, and that's a good perspective to have, as long as THAT is what's going on - that it's only his attitude/depression/mood. If it's something else, you need to know so you can choose your own boundaries with what's really going on.
> 
> For ME, if a man doesn't want ME or isn't sure if he wants ME, for ANY reason, I have NO problem stepping out of his way so he can MOVE the eff ON... Would I be sad...? YES, but if he can't see MY value, then he's going blind and I don't want HIM. I don't need that dead-weight holding me down!!
> 
> YOU are AWESOME!!! I can tell from everything you've written that you are an asset to him, a devoted partner, and an exciting woman! HE is the lucky one!! If he is losing his vision of your awesomeness, HE doesn't deserve the benefit of it!


Thank you. I am an asset, I am devoted, I can be exciting. Hopefully he finds his way back, but if he doesn't, I have the confidence that perhaps someone else might enjoy or benefit from my good traits. It is painful, the limbo...truth matters to me as well, hopefully I find my path back there too...just waiting for the right time, or if it doesn't present, maybe the right time to take my stand. It will eventually become clear to me, either because I know something concrete about what's going on, or because I've gained clarity to what I can or can't take.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

DownByTheRiver said:


> OP mentioned "if there's any remorse." I don't know. Let's ask men. Do you feel remorse about getting sex outside of whatever relationship you're in, or is it just fear or losing the partner?
> 
> Maybe it's just who is most vocal, but I've not noted a lot of remorse from men cheating for sex. So many of them justify it as their most important need not being met, a concept most women can't wrap their head around. Or "it just happened."
> 
> And then there's the whole "tip of the iceberg" problem.


You sound bitter. Why?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> seems dreadful.


It could be dreadful, except our friends are fabulous and I'm packing cute outfits. 
Seriously, WTH, I'm going on this trip, I'm going to have some fun damnit. LOL


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

2&out said:


> Did I miss something and there is now proof of an affair ? Last I "knew" was just a bunch here trying to convince you that is was a fact even thought there is no proof of it or even half strong evidence - and you have pretty open access to his communications. Is living in suspicion making things better ?
> 
> I'm going to state and ask something I don't intend to be mean but may sound it. You are starting menopause - correct ? I went part way thru it with a partner who was in it's grip and it wasn't fun - it was all me not living up to expectations, "changing", being secretive even thou I felt I wasn't and really don't think I made any changes from the way things had been, etc. Fact was 85% of it was her changed view of me and life - not me. We didn't make it. I got to the point were I was unhappy and felt she never would be happy again so I threw in the towel.


There is no proof, still just red flags and worry.
I do have a lot of "insider" info as to his schedule and work, still think an actual affair would be a logistical nightmare.

Living in suspicion SUCKs. But the reality is that it's hard some days that my imagination gets the best of me. Oh wait, there are red flags too. 

Not 100% sure what you are saying about menopause? Can you clarify?


----------



## Anastasia6

OK so you say you know his schedule. So you are saying you don't think a woman could be meeting him at his hotel and spending the night?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> You sound bitter. Why?


I've just hung out on boards where there was a lot of cheating talk and not enough sex talk, and remorse isn't something I've seen a lot of there, but of course, the forums attract people who have problems more than people who don't.


----------



## DownByTheRiver

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> You sound bitter. Why?


And you sound like you're deflecting to change the subject. Why?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> OK so you say you know his schedule. So you are saying you don't think a woman could be meeting him at his hotel and spending the night?



No, he works in multiple cities in multiple states, I'm saying it would be hard to plan, not impossible. A woman could very well have the flexibility to meet up. I just think it would be difficult.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

DownByTheRiver said:


> I've just hung out on boards where there was a lot of cheating talk and not enough sex talk, and remorse isn't something I've seen a lot of there, but of course, the forums attract people who have problems more than people who don't.


It just doesn't fit...I'm not saying he couldn't justify cheating because I've taken the sex life for granted and low priority, I'm saying he's had integrity and standards. Also, I'm not the type to take that lightly, so it's hard for me to wrap my brain around a person justifying that behavior to themselves. 

Does that make sense?

People have integrity and standards and a moral code. Or they don't. If they do, then surely they have remorse? Remorse for breaking their own moral code?


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> It just doesn't fit...I'm not saying he couldn't justify cheating because I've taken the sex life for granted and low priority, I'm saying he's had integrity and standards.
> 
> People have integrity and standards and a moral code. Or they don't. If they do, then surely they have remorse? Remorse for breaking their own moral code?


I think a moral code and integrity is on a scale, not an either/or situation. And as for remorse for breaking their own moral code? People can justify anything if they want it bad enough.

Gently, you are being incredibly naive when it comes to your husband having opportunities for cheating. His traveling as much as he does is a cheater's paradise.


----------



## Violet28

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I'm saying he's *had* integrity and standards.


Remember this, he is not the same person right now and he does not think of you the same way that he did. Who knows if it will ever return to what it was? He probably did treat you well when he cared what you thought but once his thoughts towards you shift in his mind, maybe he starts acting with 'integrity' towards someone else.



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> People have integrity and standards and a moral code. Or they don't. If they do, then surely they have remorse? Remorse for breaking their own moral code?


People are relative and capable of explaining their own actions to themselves in a way that allows them to live with what they've done. Take me, for example, I've done things that I knew that I would regret even as I was doing them. Only at the time, that didn't matter. I'm basically a 'good' person, I have a moral code, I have standards, but I was selfish, thought only of what I wanted and deluded myself into justifying doing what I wished.

Do I have remorse? Of course! I have spent three times as long regretting it as I spent doing it. Would I do it again? I'd rather die. None of that changes the fact that I did do it and this is what I deserve.

Neither of you are stable right now, he's living in a dream land and you are desperately trying to make sense of what is happening. Maybe he's cheating, maybe he's depressed, maybe he's going through a mid-life crisis. Whatever it is, it is important that you recognize he chose to withdraw from you, blame you and hurt you instead of draw closer to you during his time of struggle.


----------



## m.t.t

I was given some advice once from my mother actually. I was going through a lot of stress the first time with my now ex-husband. I wanted to know the answers, I wanted to know the truth.

She said you always find the answers it just takes time. I have to admit she was right. Answers come to you in many forms if you pay attention and listen. There is no rush, you don't have the answers you need yet and that's ok. Spyware does help speed things up a bit 

Go on your holiday, why not. You seem calmer than an anxious wreck to me. Also, people on here seem to freak out about STD testing. I'm not sure why, most can be pretty easily cured, and if not then it's a bit late. 

This is just another chapter in your life. No matter what you will learn and grow from this experience. Enjoy your holiday and your friends. Observe your husband, just don't look for hidden meanings in things you will go nuts.


----------



## lucy999

m.t.t said:


> Also, people on here seem to freak out about STD testing. I'm not sure why, most can be pretty easily cured, and if not then it's a bit late.


That would be me. I have to say (with zero snark or mean-spiritedness), I'm downright shocked at your blase attitude about STDs.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Violet28 said:


> Remember this, he is not the same person right now and he does not think of you the same way that he did.
> 
> Neither of you are stable right now, he's living in a dream land and you are desperately trying to make sense of what is happening. Maybe he's cheating, maybe he's depressed, maybe he's going through a mid-life crisis. Whatever it is, it is important that you recognize he chose to withdraw from you, blame you and hurt you instead of draw closer to you during his time of struggle.


YES to all of this, and yes, it is possible that his thinking will never "return" to what it was. In fact, if it's a midlife crisis, where he's questioning his purpose and his mortality and how he envisions living out the rest of his "short" life and who he's giving his time and energy to...I am assuming he will change and grow and on the other side, he will be different with different goals/purpose. 

I am just trying to put my best foot forward and be the best person I can be so when I look back I can say that I had integrity, I had standards (different from boundaries) and I have as few regrets as possible.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> That would be me. I have to say (with zero snark or mean-spiritedness), I'm downright shocked at your blase attitude about STDs.


I don't have any symptoms, otherwise I too would be more alarmed.
REMEMBER....I'm still not sold on an affair either, both of those combined make me less concerned.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I think a moral code and integrity is on a scale, not an either/or situation. And as for remorse for breaking their own moral code? People can justify anything if they want it bad enough.
> 
> Gently, you are being incredibly naive when it comes to your husband having opportunities for cheating. His traveling as much as he does is a cheater's paradise.


He has ALWAYS had opportunities for cheating. I have trust in him. OR I had trust in him. Now it more about logistics, but sure, I want to believe the best, not the worst. He traveled a lot for work with his first wife and she cheated while he was out of town, so for years for our marriage, his fear was that I would do the same thing. I had to explain to him multiple times, he was the one with ALL the opportunity while I was at home working and raising kids...hard (but I suppose not impossible) to drag your two young kids along on a tryst.


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I don't have any symptoms, otherwise I too would be more alarmed.
> REMEMBER....I'm still not sold on an affair either, both of those combined make me less concerned.


Oh I remember. 🙂 And just to clear up the record, I was replying to @m.t.t Not that you can't talk on your own thread of course or any thread for that matter, but I didn't want there to be any misunderstanding.


----------



## azimuth

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> YES to all of this, and yes, it is possible that his thinking will never "return" to what it was. In fact, if it's a midlife crisis, where he's questioning his purpose and his mortality and how he envisions living out the rest of his "short" life and who he's giving his time and energy to...I am assuming he will change and grow and on the other side, he will be different with different goals/purpose.
> 
> *I am just trying to put my best foot forward and be the best person I can be so when I look back I can say that I had integrity, I had standards (different from boundaries) and I have as few regrets as possible.*



To the bolded, there is a distinction between being the best you can be versus making yourself attractive to him and playing the pick me dance. Because continuing to sleep with him and hoping that he'll come back to you and make life the way it was, is not healthy. It is not authentically trying to work on the marriage. If you want to work on _yourself_, then that would be even better, which would be not sleeping with him, not microanalyzing his every move. And that has nothing to do with possible cheating, and has everything to do with standing up for yourself against the way he's treating you.


----------



## Beach123

So you won’t really care if he is having sex with someone else... so that really isn’t the issue.

mainly this should be titled with your concern that he’s basically disrespecting you.
So address mainly the disrespect issues.
But why do you think you need to be compliant and easy to please him? Why don’t you be yourself? Express your true concerns openly? Looks like your personality is squashed in this marriage. That would be my concern - yet you don’t seem to think it’s an issue to be someone you’re not to please your husband.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Oh I remember. 🙂 And just to clear up the record, I was replying to @m.t.t Not that you can't talk on your own thread of course or any thread for that matter, but I didn't want there to be any misunderstanding.


Ha! Thanks! gave me a good chuckle!


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> So you won’t really care if he is having sex with someone else... so that really isn’t the issue.
> 
> mainly this should be titled with your concern that he’s basically disrespecting you.
> So address mainly the disrespect issues.
> But why do you think you need to be compliant and easy to please him? Why don’t you be yourself? Express your true concerns openly? Looks like your personality is squashed in this marriage. That would be my concern - yet you don’t seem to think it’s an issue to be someone you’re not to please your husband.



Can I re-title the thread? 
I'm lost...I'm trying hard to be myself and work on myself, how do I do both?
I want to change some things about myself and yet be myself....how do I do that?
and to be clear, I want to change some of these things just for me...
and to be clear, I am also doing some things because I think it will please him... so yes, I'm doing both.

My personality has never been squashed, but it definitely feels that way now.


----------



## m.t.t

The STD comment was poorly worded, sorry. 

What I meant was you only have to mention the possibility of an affair and people go into a panic about STD and insistence on STD testing.


----------



## m.t.t

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Can I re-title the thread?
> I'm lost...I'm trying hard to be myself and work on myself, how do I do both?
> I want to change some things about myself and yet be myself....how do I do that?
> and to be clear, I want to change some of these things just for me...
> and to be clear, I am also doing some things because I think it will please him... so yes, I'm doing both.
> 
> My personality has never been squashed, but it definitely feels that way now.


I don't think you need to retitle your thread. An affair is not really all about the sex is it?


----------



## attheend02

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> It just doesn't fit...I'm not saying he couldn't justify cheating because I've taken the sex life for granted and low priority, I'm saying he's had integrity and standards. Also, I'm not the type to take that lightly, so it's hard for me to wrap my brain around a person justifying that behavior to themselves.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> People have integrity and standards and a moral code. Or they don't. If they do, then surely they have remorse? Remorse for breaking their own moral code?


I made the mistake of believing that my wife's "standards" would preclude her from cheating. 
I'm not sure that she doesn't have those standards in her now. 
She chose to betray her own standards to get something that she couldn't have in her current situation. 
I think most are capable of that.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

m.t.t said:


> The STD comment was poorly worded, sorry.
> 
> What I meant was you only have to mention the possibility of an affair and people go into a panic about STD and insistence on STD testing.


No apology needed, thank you for clarifying.


----------



## Beach123

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Can I re-title the thread?
> I'm lost...I'm trying hard to be myself and work on myself, how do I do both?
> I want to change some things about myself and yet be myself....how do I do that?
> and to be clear, I want to change some of these things just for me...
> and to be clear, I am also doing some things because I think it will please him... so yes, I'm doing both.
> 
> My personality has never been squashed, but it definitely feels that way now.


my reference is for the present time. That’s really all the info we are working with. What’s happening now.


----------



## LisaDiane

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Can I re-title the thread?
> I'm lost...I'm trying hard to be myself and work on myself, how do I do both?
> I want to change some things about myself and yet be myself....how do I do that?
> and to be clear, I want to change some of these things just for me...
> and to be clear, I am also doing some things because I think it will please him... so yes, I'm doing both.
> 
> My personality has never been squashed, but it definitely feels that way now.


Do you think that your attempt to give him what he wants, or to give him space and not stand up to him more, could be turning him OFF to you in certain ways...? Only YOU know HIM, but for some people, that can push them away more.
What if he actually wants you to be more assertive and demanding, and THAT would attract him back to you...?? How do you know your softer, gentler approach is really what he desires in you?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

LisaDiane said:


> Do you think that your attempt to give him what he wants, or to give him space and not stand up to him more, could be turning him OFF to you in certain ways...? Only YOU know HIM, but for some people, that can push them away more.
> What if he actually wants you to be more assertive and demanding, and THAT would attract him back to you...?? How do you know your softer, gentler approach is really what he desires in you?


Great point!


----------



## m.t.t

LisaDiane said:


> Do you think that your attempt to give him what he wants, or to give him space and not stand up to him more, could be turning him OFF to you in certain ways...? Only YOU know HIM, but for some people, that can push them away more.
> What if he actually wants you to be more assertive and demanding, and THAT would attract him back to you...?? How do you know your softer, gentler approach is really what he desires in you?


I have to say that I agree. I was like you are being with my now ex-husband. What I got was no respect or breadcrumbs. It was confusing and a big mind ****.

When I had enough and I was over it. I became strong and threw him out. From then on I was really doing my own thing and not pretending to. I had little time for him. He wanted me back, he loved that I had balls and wouldn't take his **** anymore. He wanted back but by then I was done. Your husband might want to see this in you but I don't believe you can fake this. This has to be shown and to show it you really have to be done. It's hard to get back from done though I guess.


----------



## ABHale

Anastasia6 said:


> OK so you say you know his schedule. So you are saying you don't think a woman could be meeting him at his hotel and spending the night?


I think she means that he is always in different locations. It would be hard unless the OW was actually traveling with him.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

I have said before, you need to get pissed off about this and put your foot down, as others now seem to be mentioning. Tell him if he is not sure that he wants to stay married to you, then he needs to go. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Beach123

I agree, make that decision for him... and for YOU!

living with someone who doesn’t value you 100% by cherishing you? No way!

he wants to act like a jerk and have bad moods - he can be by himself! That way his bad mood is ON HIM... and not you!!!

we train people how to treat us. You’ve trained him he can treat you like garbage.

time for him to learn differently! When you don’t treat someone right - they should leave! And you should too! Staying because it’s been a long marriage doesn’t indicate it’s happy in the present.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

m.t.t said:


> I have to say that I agree. I was like you are being with my now ex-husband. What I got was no respect or breadcrumbs. It was confusing and a big mind f....ucck.
> 
> When I had enough and I was over it. I became strong and threw him out. From then on I was really doing my own thing and not pretending to. I had little time for him. He wanted me back, he loved that I had balls and wouldn't take his s..hit anymore. He wanted back but by then I was done. Your husband might want to see this in you but I don't believe you can fake this. This has to be shown and to show it you really have to be done. It's hard to get back from done though I guess.


I can totally see how this would be the case, and when I'm done, I'm done as well....
I haven't reached that point, and currently I'm not pretending not to care, I am assuming that he is aware that I care, but since he avoids ALL personal conversations, I wouldn't know for sure. I tried to engage him in some talk about the future while we were on our drive to and from our long weekend getaway, but he basically shut down the conversation unless it was small talk or work talk. I also chose NOT to discuss our relationship during the trip. So right now I don't know where we stand or what he really thinks.


----------



## Beach123

Sounds like a really empty union.
I’d be left feeling empty and alone if I was with someone like that.
Generally, if you’re not his top priority - someone else is.


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I haven't reached that point, and currently I'm not pretending not to care, I am assuming that he is aware that I care, but since he avoids ALL personal conversations, I wouldn't know for sure. I tried to engage him in some talk about the future while we were on our drive to and from our long weekend getaway, but he basically shut down the conversation unless it was small talk or work talk. I also chose NOT to discuss our relationship during the trip. So right now I don't know where we stand or what he really thinks.


You haven't known where you stand or what he really thinks for months now. Are we at the half year mark yet? Pretty close?

You are a wife appliance to him (phrase coined by Chump Lady). You are useful to him so he's keeping you around and you're accepting the ever-so-shrinking parameters he sets on things like what you can and cannot talk about.

Do you think you could be codependent?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> You haven't known where you stand or what he really thinks for months now. Are we at the half year mark yet? Pretty close?
> 
> You are a wife appliance to him (phrase coined by Chump Lady). You are useful to him so he's keeping you around and you're accepting the ever-so-shrinking parameters he sets on things like what you can and cannot talk about.
> 
> Do you think you could be codependent?


I don't disagree with you.
I don't want to make hasty decisions that I might regret either. So I'm working through my thoughts and emotions like never before...
I woke up this morning resentful and exhausted (and alone, the day after we got home from our mini-vacation he was off again for work...this time he actually came into the office for a meeting with us first to determine where to go/which jobs needed his attention first) So his travel plans are literally almost last minute, he went home, repacked and left.
I am having to replace a key employee who's leaving, it is going to be a lot a lot of work, I am going to have to give up personal time, a lot of personal time to hire and train this person as I had to do it a year ago and it was exhausting back then.

But back then we were a TEAM and I had motivation.
Right now I'm exhausted AND resentful and I haven't even started. 
Why am I going to work so hard for "US" when there is no "US?"

Also, this makes me wonder if that's how he has felt over the past several years and I was just blind to it? He tried to get to me travel with him, repeatedly, even set up his work vehicle with a lap desk and printer for me, but I usually felt like other things were more of a priority...maybe ignoring this need made him feel like we weren't a TEAM?
I don't know, he hasn't talked to me. It's just speculation. I know men like to feel appreciated and respected (so do I for that matter)


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Do you think you could be codependent?


Can you explain what codependent means in this instance?


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## She'sStillGotIt

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Can you explain what codependent means in this instance?


In your situation, you're *refusing* to accept reality. 

You keep making excuses for the unacceptable, you keep moving the goalposts for what you're willing to accept in order to continue holding onto this prize, and you've continually allowed yourself to be *degraded, disrespected and devalued* all in the name of "I'm trying to work on my marriage because I don't want to give up!"

So you continue to cling to him no matter how badly you're treated or disrespected. Anyone with even a modicum of pride and dignity would not allow this treatment day after day after day after day and *still* desperately cling to that person like you're doing. You're also trying to blame this **** show all on yourself because you weren't willing to travel with him. Since when it is a *requirement* in marriage for a spouse to have to travel with the other spouse just because they've CHOSEN a job that requires travel? So every wife should go on the road with her trucker husband and every wife should go on the road with her traveling salesman husband - or they've failed the marriage? Give me a break.

When you have no boundaries left because you were willing to cross every ONE of them in order to continue holding onto someone who doesn't show YOU the same consideration, I'd say that makes you codependent.


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Can you explain what codependent means in this instance?


I'm no psychologist, and it's totally possible I don't understand the concept of codependence, but you don't have any power in this relationship. You serve it up to him on a platter because you are trying so hard to keep this marriage together.

Sure, you have some power on the business side of things. But that's because you're useful and you're a financial partner (did I get that right?) so he can't push back too hard.

But in your personal relationship, he has boxed you into a corner so tight you don't want to step one toe over that line lest he get upset. I know this sounds super dramatic, but you kind of sound like an abused woman--you are tip-toeing so carefully.

You're taking his Supreme crap treatment of you and instead of looking at that as a whole as completely unacceptable, you parse it out and find a miniscule good bit and inflate it to be something very good. You're remaining quiet because he shuts you down and generally, you don't say your piece because you want to keep the peace and not push him away. You've spoken up a few times, but not that much. And when you do, boy howdy he sure is quick to put you back in that corner and that corner is even smaller this time. Because you dared to speak up.

You're taking his proverbial whippings like a good dog.

I, of course, issue a caveat here because I don't want you to take offense. I'm always afraid you will. I am not saying this in a mean way. It's hard to read inflection from the written word. If we were friends IRL I would tell you these exact things in a gentle way.

Maybe you could ask about codependency at your next therapy appt? I could be all wrong about this.


----------



## 2&out

[QUOTE

Also, this makes me wonder if that's how he has felt over the past several years and I was just blind to it? He tried to get to me travel with him, repeatedly, even set up his work vehicle with a lap desk and printer for me, but I usually felt like other things were more of a priority...maybe ignoring this need made him feel like we weren't a TEAM?
I don't know, he hasn't talked to me. It's just speculation. I know men like to feel appreciated and respected (so do I for that matter)
[/QUOTE]

So basically he is doing the same thing that you did to him for years. It's a problem when he behaves the same way as you ? Interesting....


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Why are you allowing HIM to control the narrative? When you bring up things he doesn’t want to talk about and he tries to shut you down... put your foot down and don’t let him. Tell him once and for all, NO! We are going to talk about this because I am sick and tired of living like this and with you refusing to make me and our marriage any kind of priority! I need to know what is going on, and if you want out then you need to go!

You don’t do this because you are afraid of the truth. Seems you’d rather have him there just being present than to have an honest life. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## azimuth

I think part of the codependency is that you're trying to protect yourself from the pain. You don't want to think you're living a lie. You don't want to think this could be more than mid life crisis. So you cling, you pray, you're desperate for him to go back to "normal" where you both pretended to be happily married. And if he would just pretend again, then you could pretend too. But as 3Xnocharm said, it's not an honest life. Having an honest life means facing hard truths. The hard truth is that your husband is treating you very badly. You're a human being he chose as his partner. You deserve respect and communication. You are giving your body and soul over to this man in an attempt to win him over and that will end up causing more damage to you than actually facing the truth and having an honest conversation.




3Xnocharm said:


> Why are you allowing HIM to control the narrative? When you bring up things he doesn’t want to talk about and he tries to shut you down... put your foot down and don’t let him. Tell him once and for all, NO! We are going to talk about this because I am sick and tired of living like this and with you refusing to make me and our marriage any kind of priority! I need to know what is going on, and if you want out then you need to go!
> 
> You don’t do this because you are afraid of the truth. Seems you’d rather have him there just being present than to have an honest life.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LisaDiane

2&out said:


> So basically he is doing the same thing that you did to him for years. It's a problem when he behaves the same way as you ? Interesting....


NOT even CLOSE...if this is what you are getting from her comment, you haven't read the entire thread.


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Why am I going to work so hard for "US" when there is no "US?"


THIS is the question you need to answer honestly. Because from where I sit, we're all wondering the same thing.


----------



## Beach123

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Can you explain what codependent means in this instance?


it would help you to read the book “Codependent No More”

As a refresher (which I often need) I was reading through a few chapters last night. I think the book may help you a lot.

I’m left wondering if you’re a doormat for your husband these past six months. He’s not authentically invested in you. He also seems to leave as quickly as he gets home... avoiding intimacy while he’s with you.

Those aren’t good signs for any relationship. You say you’re not rushing into a decision - but since this slow pace is harming you more than it’s helping - a decision for YOUR benefit sooner rather than later should be considered.

side note... why does everything needed seem to be in your lap? Why can’t someone else hire and train that new person? Can you delegate more?


----------



## ABHale

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Also, this makes me wonder if that's how he has felt over the past several years and I was just blind to it? He tried to get to me travel with him, repeatedly, even set up his work vehicle with a lap desk and printer for me, but I usually felt like other things were more of a priority...maybe ignoring this need made him feel like we weren't a TEAM?
> I don't know, he hasn't talked to me. It's just speculation. I know men like to feel appreciated and respected (so do I for that matter)


How long ago was this?

I can relate to this. My own marriage is at rock bottom right now because of things that have gone on over the years. Feeling like I have been taken for granted. Feeling like my wife didn’t give a damn if I was home or not. Feeling like a pay check is all I was wanted for.

Told my wife around 4-5 years ago she could have a divorce when ever she wanted it. She still doesn’t want one and she hasn’t been able to fix what she broke. She just never had time for our relationship. She has never gone on one of my Business trips as well. I can count on one hand the number of dates we have been on by ourselves in the past 23 years.

My wife proved by her actions that I didn’t matter to her. Everything else including her helping out as a band parent was more important then our relationship and marriage. Now that the kids are off to college the reality of what she has done is setting in. I am gone from home now 5-6 days a week. I am actually looking for a job where I will be gone months at a time or moving just myself for the job.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I'm no psychologist, and it's totally possible I don't understand the concept of codependence, but you don't have any power in this relationship. You serve it up to him on a platter because you are trying so hard to keep this marriage together.
> 
> Sure, you have some power on the business side of things. But that's because you're useful and you're a financial partner (did I get that right?) so he can't push back too hard.
> 
> But in your personal relationship, he has boxed you into a corner so tight you don't want to step one toe over that line lest he get upset. I know this sounds super dramatic, but you kind of sound like an abused woman--you are tip-toeing so carefully.
> 
> You're taking his Supreme crap treatment of you and instead of looking at that as a whole as completely unacceptable, you parse it out and find a miniscule good bit and inflate it to be something very good. You're remaining quiet because he shuts you down and generally, you don't say your piece because you want to keep the peace and not push him away. You've spoken up a few times, but not that much. And when you do, boy howdy he sure is quick to put you back in that corner and that corner is even smaller this time. Because you dared to speak up.
> 
> You're taking his proverbial whippings like a good dog.
> 
> I, of course, issue a caveat here because I don't want you to take offense. I'm always afraid you will. I am not saying this in a mean way. It's hard to read inflection from the written word. If we were friends IRL I would tell you these exact things in a gentle way.
> 
> Maybe you could ask about codependency at your next therapy appt? I could be all wrong about this.


I'm not taking offense by your comments. 
I do feel boxed in.
I'll try to remember to ask about codependency. I saw my therapist today actually and don't see her again for two weeks.
I'm not worried about power in the relationship right now, seriously, I had more of it for most of the marriage and never gave it much thought then either. 
I have power over myself, so if I chose to back down, then that's me making that decision. If my goal is to work on the marriage, then making ultimatums and forcing serious talks don't feel like the right path, at least not right now.
Not every resolution has to stem from a confrontation.

I really dislike confrontation. I am a people pleaser by nature, a diplomat. One of the few people in my life that I never feared confronting was my husband, because I felt SAFE enough with him. He used to actually complain to me that I went out of my way to avoid arguing and confrontation with everyone except him.

I guess now I don't feel safe, and by safe, I mean, now I no longer feel secure in our relationship. So if or when I do get confrontational with him, it's going to be with a lot more diplomacy then usual. Or I'm going to reach the end of my rope and let it all out and probably regret it.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

She'sStillGotIt said:


> In your situation, you're *refusing* to accept reality.
> You're also trying to blame this **** show all on yourself because you weren't willing to travel with him. Since when it is a *requirement* in marriage for a spouse to have to travel with the other spouse just because they've CHOSEN a job that requires travel? So every wife should go on the road with her trucker husband and every wife should go on the road with her traveling salesman husband - or they've failed the marriage? Give me a break.
> 
> When you have no boundaries left because you were willing to cross every ONE of them in order to continue holding onto someone who doesn't show YOU the same consideration, I'd say that makes you codependent.


I feel like you might be a bit angry and frustrated with me. LOL

I also think you misunderstand when it comes to the travel thing.
I'm not saying this whole thing is my fault because I didn't travel with him.

What I'm saying is that he made it very clear that he wanted me to travel more with him.
He told me he was lonely, he sent me cute text messages and got hurt if I forgot to text goodnight.
It's not about the travel, it's about making him feel like a priority, or rather NOT having done so, not in the way he asked.

I made him a priority in other ways, but sometimes that doesn't make a difference if it's not what you really want or need. If I tell you I need chocolate and you keep giving me oranges, sure oranges are nice, but it seems as if you aren't hearing me or paying attention.

So over time, that could be one of the underlying issues contributing to where we are now. THAT was the point I was trying to make. I'm not blaming ALL of this on me, I'm just looking at things I may have done or not done that weren't great for the relationship. There's a difference between taking responsibility for my actions and taking blame.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

2&out said:


> [QUOTE
> 
> Also, this makes me wonder if that's how he has felt over the past several years and I was just blind to it? He tried to get to me travel with him, repeatedly, even set up his work vehicle with a lap desk and printer for me, but I usually felt like other things were more of a priority...maybe ignoring this need made him feel like we weren't a TEAM?
> I don't know, he hasn't talked to me. It's just speculation. I know men like to feel appreciated and respected (so do I for that matter)


So basically he is doing the same thing that you did to him for years. It's a problem when he behaves the same way as you ? Interesting....
[/QUOTE]

There's a difference between doing something to someone and how they interpret and feel and react.
I was speculating that maybe he has felt like I do right now, and I was having a moment of empathy for him if that were the case.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

3Xnocharm said:


> Why are you allowing HIM to control the narrative? When you bring up things he doesn’t want to talk about and he tries to shut you down... put your foot down and don’t let him. Tell him once and for all, NO! We are going to talk about this because I am sick and tired of living like this and with you refusing to make me and our marriage any kind of priority! I need to know what is going on, and if you want out then you need to go!
> 
> You don’t do this because you are afraid of the truth. Seems you’d rather have him there just being present than to have an honest life.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



There are several of you concerned about power and control.
I am concerned about my goal right now.
My goal right now is to try and save my marriage....therefore I am not telling him to get out the door because I don't want him to get out the door. I want him to see that whatever narrative or negative thought process he's got going on about how bad "things" are at home, the reality is that they aren't bad. I'm not arguing, I'm not unpleasant, I'm taking care of business, going out with my friends, working out, working, having fun with my adult kids, etc.

I'm not saying I won't reach a point where I get sick and tired of it all.
I'm just saying I'm not there yet.
YES I AM AFRAID...and hurt, and scared, and you name it. I get on the stupid roller coaster of emotions and go up and down and up and down.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

azimuth said:


> I think part of the codependency is that you're trying to protect yourself from the pain. You don't want to think you're living a lie. You don't want to think this could be more than mid life crisis. So you cling, you pray, you're desperate for him to go back to "normal" where you both pretended to be happily married. And if he would just pretend again, then you could pretend too. But as 3Xnocharm said, it's not an honest life. Having an honest life means facing hard truths. The hard truth is that your husband is treating you very badly. You're a human being he chose as his partner. You deserve respect and communication. You are giving your body and soul over to this man in an attempt to win him over and that will end up causing more damage to you than actually facing the truth and having an honest conversation.


I didn't think we were pretending to be happily married, I thought we were. I am easily content and easy going, so as far as I am concerned, I was happily married with a marriage that had it's ups and downs, but mostly up and mostly up in recent years.

Maybe he thinks he was pretending? I wasn't pretending.
So no, I wouldn't want either one of us to pretend, my goal is to have a great partnership, not pretense from either one of us.
He is treating me very badly right now, I do not disagree. I do deserve respect and communication.
I don't think I'm living a lie, on the flip side, I'm not going to extreme measures to dig up dirt either, I am willing to take things at face value for now.
I am NOT the one refusing to have an honest conversation, he is, and I'll be damned if I make it easy on him and kick him out the door because of that. If he really wants out, then he's going to have to be the one to make it happen.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> it would help you to read the book “Codependent No More”
> 
> As a refresher (which I often need) I was reading through a few chapters last night. I think the book may help you a lot.
> 
> I’m left wondering if you’re a doormat for your husband these past six months. He’s not authentically invested in you. He also seems to leave as quickly as he gets home... avoiding intimacy while he’s with you.
> 
> Those aren’t good signs for any relationship. You say you’re not rushing into a decision - but since this slow pace is harming you more than it’s helping - a decision for YOUR benefit sooner rather than later should be considered.
> 
> side note... why does everything needed seem to be in your lap? Why can’t someone else hire and train that new person? Can you delegate more?


Thank you, I will look at that book.
I agree with almost everything you just said.

It's in my lap because I am the most experienced person to train this position and it's the right thing to do.
I could say "screw it" and try to delegate the job of training, but then I would also be hurting myself and my own livelihood and possibly lose accounts and customers as a result.
_IF_ I do this right and get a really good person in the position, I will free myself up long term...again, another end goal.

So the silver lining is that I have an opportunity here to set things up in the office to be even better and more efficient so that I can work fewer hours in the long run.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

ABHale said:


> How long ago was this?
> 
> I can relate to this. My own marriage is at rock bottom right now because of things that have gone on over the years. Feeling like I have been taken for granted. Feeling like my wife didn’t give a damn if I was home or not. Feeling like a pay check is all I was wanted for.
> 
> Told my wife around 4-5 years ago she could have a divorce when ever she wanted it. She still doesn’t want one and she hasn’t been able to fix what she broke. She just never had time for our relationship. She has never gone on one of my Business trips as well. I can count on one hand the number of dates we have been on by ourselves in the past 23 years.
> 
> My wife proved by her actions that I didn’t matter to her. Everything else including her helping out as a band parent was more important then our relationship and marriage. Now that the kids are off to college the reality of what she has done is setting in. I am gone from home now 5-6 days a week. I am actually looking for a job where I will be gone months at a time or moving just myself for the job.


I am sorry that your marriage is at rock bottom and you feel like you didn't matter.
While there might be some similarities, and I can't speak for my husband's feelings, I do not think my transgressions ran as long or as deep as you are portraying your wife's. 
Yes I took some things for granted. (don't we all?)
Most recently I did let our sex life get boring and less frequent and I knew it was an issue for him, but made only small efforts to address it.
I have gone on his business trips, just not as often as he wanted.
BUT I didn't look at him as just a paycheck, because I was working just as hard at home to make it happen both for our company and taking care of the house, home, and kids.


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I wouldn't want either one of us to pretend, my goal is to have a great partnership, not pretense from either one of us.


Quite frankly, I'm flabbergasted by your denial, as I am sure everyone here is. Right now, all you have is pretense. Your pretense is driven by your fear to actually face the truth and confront your husband. Great partnership???? Are you freakin' kidding me? Have you let your tight-lipped, abusive husband in on this grand plan?

Look, you can obfuscate, rationalize, defend, and deflect all you want to. I'm not buying it. In fact, even YOU aren't buying this. Your sole motivation for all this nonsensical posturing about "improving" yourself is you are simply too damn scared - and apparently have no self-esteem whatsoever - to CONFRONT you husband and DEMAND the truth.

For cryin' out loud - This man treats you like dog crap and you come on here with all this hoity-toity b.s. about getting stronger, improving yourself, blah, blah, blah. Okay, improve YOURSELF all you want. It's not doing sheet for your marriage. So how's that workin' for ya? 

And P.S. - Please, in the name of all that is holy - don't tell me you're taking the high road, being the bigger person here. That is a load of crap and you know it. Your husband has checked out of the marriage and you don't have the guts to just tell him to cut it out and MAN UP. SERIOUSLY.


----------



## AKCStL2000

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> So are you suggesting that I use the phrase "I feel" or not? Sorry, I'm having trouble following.


framing what you say with “I feel” is more effective in opening lines of communication than with “you do” statements. Accusatory statements, even if true, tend to elicit defensive behavior, whereas starting sentences with “I feel” almost forces the other person to consider the effect his words and actions have on the speaker.


----------



## Beach123

Everything you are doing is pretending.

you even went on a vacation you didn’t want to go on. You’re going to do a job at work you don’t want to do.

It must be exhausting pretending that much. When are you going to get honest with YOURSELF? When are you going to start taking care of yourself?

he leaves every week - while you take care of everyone and everything! Then he comes in like a cool breeze and gives you the cold shoulder - then leaves again! When does HE ever look after what YOU want and NEED?

he’s not a partner. He’s a visitor. A visitor that has a wife at home to take care of ALL the crap he doesn’t want to talk about. What about reality? Why don’t you demand he stay home more and actually help you by being an active partner in this ‘marriage’?

at least admit what it is - it’s a convenience and you are being used to keep his life orderly.


----------



## Particular one

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> The change seems to coincide with the pandemic, so I am sure there is an element of stress of the unknown and instability that this pandemic has brought. I understand we tend to take our stress out on those closest to us, I am guilty of this and get snippy and irritable when it's not warranted.
> Coming up on 24 years married, the last few years have felt pretty good relationship-wise. We've made new friends and have had a full social life filled with trips and vacations etc. Recently husband is distant, can't engage him in a conversation, is irritable and responds with one or two words or simply doesn't respond to me. No longer is interested in being intimate, hasn't initiated any type of physical connection (not even a side hug) in almost two full months, probably longer. He does a lot of his own scheduling and finds a reason to travel more days during the week for work. He used to talk about me traveling with him, that hasn't come up at all lately. He used to talk about missing me, and text me to connect personally (not just business or family stuff.) Can't remember the last time he asked me how my day was, or how my book was, or how my walk went, or really anything personal. My attempts at drawing him in or showing an interest are met with little to no response, or more likely irritation. Sometimes he is just down right mean, his tone of voice or what he says showing clearly that I am a nuisance. I understand he wants/needs space, and the more he pulls away, the more I want to fix it, feel a connection, but the more I try, the more irritated he gets. I'm trying hard to give him space to work through whatever is eating at him. He's withdrawn from other things as well, not wanting to participate in most of the socializing our friends have been doing online. (there really hasn't been much in person due to the pandemic, but we were invited to go see friends later this month and without asking me, he turned them down.)
> 
> I asked him point blank the other day if he was mad at me or tired of me. I called him on his behavior and let him know that the way he was talking/not talking to me made it seem as if I had done something wrong or needed to fix something. He refused to answer any of my direct questions, just looked at me and said there was nothing I could do to fix it, and he refused to talk about it any further, he literally said "we are not having this discussion" and told me that I just needed to go about my business.
> 
> He was raised by a mother who showed her displeasure by withholding affection and he parents or has parented that way, having a hard time separating his emotions when he's disappointed or hurt or trying to correct what he thinks is bad behavior or choices (all the kids are mostly grown) so when he does it to me, it's really hard NOT to read that as displeasure on his part and something I am somehow supposed to fix.
> 
> Anyway, if I take him at face value, and there is nothing I can do, despite how it feels, how long do I carry on like this before the space he is requesting is something we can't come back from? How long will we just be roommates, occasionally crossing paths or sharing a meal. Letting that continue for too long can't be good, right? On the other hand, to ignore his request and keep striving for a connection is to show him disrespect, and I really don't want to do that. Besides, he just shuts down and/or tells me I am hovering.
> 
> Anyone been through something similar or have any insight?
> Thanks in advance,
> AlmostEmptyNester


Why do I feel like you and me have lived the same lives at some point everything that you’ve just stated happened to me my husband got irritated one day over me forgetting to bring home milk!?!? milk!?!?So I broke into his phone and found pictures of a mutual friend that I have never seen before in very sexy positions I found tax to this person some in which he replied some in which he erace some of her replies. I was completely heartbroken we work with this mutual friend and now I struggle with seeing her daily but what’s funny is I felt this way even before the pandemic I just felt funny and I was right I didn’t want to be but I was but I thought the same thing he couldn’t that doesn’t mean he couldn’t emotionally be involved with someone. I have asked him point-blank and he lied hence why I broke into his phone now we’re trying to rebuild a marriage that I truly don’t see any hope. FYI there was also a suppose it friend at the gym when the new gym opened he secretly invited her to join him almost 2 months I never knew should’ve read those texts


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## azimuth

You are absolutely 100% pretending. We are trying to get you to wake up to the fact that

He. Does. Not. Care. About. You.


While you're "working on the marriage" he's getting his ducks in a row, trying to figure out ways to leave the cheapest way possible for him. In the meantime he barely treats you like a human being. You need to protect yourself financially and emotionally because one day he will leave you. His girlfriend will make him choose between you and her. He's already made the choice for his heart but financially and legally he hasn't (yet). You say you don't want to kick him out, but it's not up to you. Since you've given him all your power, it's up to him and he WILL. Don't be blindsided. Trying so hard to save the marriage will earn you nothing. He's not going to wake up one day and respect you for it and come running back.


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## LisaDiane

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> If he really wants out, then he's going to have to be the one to make it happen.


How can you not see that he's already OUT...?? He's living his life like he's single, and you are making that easy for him. You are making it so he can do everything exactly the way he wants to, but he doesn't have to live with any consequences. He doesn't have to divorce you and lose your help and his money...he doesn't have to talk to you and be honest with you about what's going on...he doesn't have to have any responsibility to HIS vows or his wife...you still even have sex with him (I don't know how you can be aroused with someone who doesn't act like he loves or wants you).

HE IS ALREADY GONE. He is only hanging around because you make it so easy for him. EVERYONE can see it, you just refuse to see it out of FEAR. And that's ok, if you want to waste your time and energy on him like that, DO IT. But at least be honest with yourself about what is going on and your reasons for it...you aren't "working on" your marriage - you are simply refusing to see that you are living with NO marriage, so you can cling to that illusion and stay where you feel safe.

What is going to happen eventually is that your mind and heart are going to get used to this "new normal" with him, and it's going to seem less and less hard to do, and you are going to go on thinking that you actually have a real relationship with him even though it's clear to everyone else (and HIM) that you DO NOT. 

As to what I quoted above - Please explain to me how you can think you are doing either of you any good by trying to keep a man with you who doesn't want to be with you...?? WHY, if he really doesn't love you anymore, would you want him to stay until it's easy for him to leave...? HOW is that a "win" for you? He is NOT staying with you because he's ambivalent about his feelings for you, he is staying because it's easier FOR HIM and you are allowing it. Instead of giving him the natural consequences of treating you badly, so he can remember that you are special, you are allowing him to treat you as if you are NOTHING...why do you believe anything good for your relationship can come from that...?

BELIEVE ME -- you are NOT showing him that you are a valuable partner, you are NOT reminding him of the reasons he loves you, you are NOT winning him back to you, he is not respecting you for how you are treating him...he is simply TAKING ADVANTAGE of the situation that you are allowing him to exist in. I wonder if you are pushing him further away by being so desperate (and that's what bowing to his every whim is) - you've been acting the same with him for MONTHS and he's only drifted further away from you...clearly your strategy isn't working.


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## lucy999

Ugh I hate to add to the pile on here, but none of the pile on is mean spirited. It's to help you open your eyes to what's apparent to everyone around you.

As much as I'm not a fan of Dr. Phil, in talking about the long-suffering plan you've employed for your marriage, to quote him, complete with his southern twang, "How's that working for ya?"

It's not working. At all. Your husband is a cake eater.

Do you think you have low self-esteem? Because that's how you present. To me, anyway.


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## 3Xnocharm

@LisaDiane nailed it. 100% dead on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6

Speaking of finances I know you were going to an attorney an such just in case. How is that proceeding?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> Quite frankly, I'm flabbergasted by your denial, as I am sure everyone here is. Right now, all you have is pretense. Your pretense is driven by your fear to actually face the truth and confront your husband. Great partnership???? Are you freakin' kidding me? Have you let your tight-lipped, abusive husband in on this grand plan?
> 
> Look, you can obfuscate, rationalize, defend, and deflect all you want to. I'm not buying it. In fact, even YOU aren't buying this. Your sole motivation for all this nonsensical posturing about "improving" yourself is you are simply too damn scared - and apparently have no self-esteem whatsoever - to CONFRONT you husband and DEMAND the truth.
> 
> For cryin' out loud - This man treats you like dog crap and you come on here with all this hoity-toity b.s. about getting stronger, improving yourself, blah, blah, blah. Okay, improve YOURSELF all you want. It's not doing sheet for your marriage. So how's that workin' for ya?
> 
> And P.S. - Please, in the name of all that is holy - don't tell me you're taking the high road, being the bigger person here. That is a load of crap and you know it. Your husband has checked out of the marriage and you don't have the guts to just tell him to cut it out and MAN UP. SERIOUSLY.


I am not being hoity-toity.
I'm sorry if it's coming across that way.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Everything you are doing is pretending.
> 
> you even went on a vacation you didn’t want to go on. You’re going to do a job at work you don’t want to do.
> 
> It must be exhausting pretending that much. When are you going to get honest with YOURSELF? When are you going to start taking care of yourself?
> 
> he leaves every week - while you take care of everyone and everything! Then he comes in like a cool breeze and gives you the cold shoulder - then leaves again! When does HE ever look after what YOU want and NEED?
> 
> he’s not a partner. He’s a visitor. A visitor that has a wife at home to take care of ALL the crap he doesn’t want to talk about. What about reality? Why don’t you demand he stay home more and actually help you by being an active partner in this ‘marriage’?
> 
> at least admit what it is - it’s a convenience and you are being used to keep his life orderly.


Yes.
I do feel used.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Speaking of finances I know you were going to an attorney an such just in case. How is that proceeding?


I've only been to the one attorney, I have the names of others and I should make at least one more appointment because I wasn't quite sure I liked the one I did see, the only plus to seeing him was that he has a reputation as a bulldog and now I've taken him off the list of possible ones for my husband.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Ugh I hate to add to the pile on here, but none of the pile on is mean spirited. It's to help you open your eyes to what's apparent to everyone around you.
> 
> As much as I'm not a fan of Dr. Phil, in talking about the long-suffering plan you've employed for your marriage, to quote him, complete with his southern twang, "How's that working for ya?"
> 
> It's not working. At all. Your husband is a cake eater.
> 
> Do you think you have low self-esteem? Because that's how you present. To me, anyway.


I have low self esteem now, sort of. I'm not rock bottom, but it is suffering.


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## Prodigal

Here's the thing: I don't like being deceived, whether it's intentional or not. You can talk yourself into staying in a sham marriage all you want. But please don't insult our collective intelligence here by trying to pass off what you are doing as "improving" yourself. Yes, I'm being harsh, because you need a swift kick in the ass.

Your husband has crapped all over the marriage. If you want to sit and take it that's fine with me. No skin off my nose. My very strong reaction was to you trying to fool me, and most of us, with this nonsense. Find your spine. Find your self-worth. Find your self respect. A HUSBAND DOES NOT TREAT HIS WIFE THE WAY YOUR HUSBAND TREATS YOU.

Suggestion: Consider renting an apartment with a six month lease. Tell Mr. Wonderful you are leaving and give him a six month deadline to poop or get off the pot.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I have low self esteem now, sort of. I'm not rock bottom, but it is suffering.


Are you willing to hit rock bottom before you get some answers? 

For a minute or three I understood why you proceeded as you did. 

But now? Why do you think your self-esteem has taken a hit? 

It's like you're disintegrating as a person before our eyes here on the page--I can only imagine what it's like IRL. 

And if you _might _be ok even in a cheating situation, why wouldn't you be proactive about getting answers? Are you afraid that's really not true?


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## Particular one

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Yes.
> I do feel used.


I’m sorry you are going through this no one should have to stay with someone just to survive or not be alone but I pondered this myself n came to the Conclusion I would rather be miserable by myself and miserable with someone else


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## m.t.t

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I feel like you might be a bit angry and frustrated with me. LOL
> 
> I also think you misunderstand when it comes to the travel thing.
> I'm not saying this whole thing is my fault because I didn't travel with him.
> 
> What I'm saying is that he made it very clear that he wanted me to travel more with him.
> He told me he was lonely, he sent me cute text messages and got hurt if I forgot to text goodnight.
> It's not about the travel, it's about making him feel like a priority, or rather NOT having done so, not in the way he asked.
> 
> I made him a priority in other ways, but sometimes that doesn't make a difference if it's not what you really want or need. If I tell you I need chocolate and you keep giving me oranges, sure oranges are nice, but it seems as if you aren't hearing me or paying attention.
> 
> So over time, that could be one of the underlying issues contributing to where we are now. THAT was the point I was trying to make. I'm not blaming ALL of this on me, I'm just looking at things I may have done or not done that weren't great for the relationship. There's a difference between taking responsibility for my actions and taking blame.


I understand what you are saying, I also started looking at what I did to ruin my relationship with my ex. I posted on here as I felt like writing a letter to apologize for things that I did that may have contributed to the failure of our relationship. Please feel free to read the post.

I decided not to write the letter, so so glad that I did not. It's important, I feel to own your own downfalls and acknowledge them to yourself. But please don't think for a minute that your vanilla sex life is at all responsible for this. You are like me I think - over-responsible.

One thing that did cross my mind when I was reading your latest updates. I'm getting the feeling that your husband might have met someone, had an affair or not, but it has made him realize that he no longer loves you or wants to be in the marriage with you. This may be why you feel as your title states. It feels like an affair but... He may want to be with someone that he can't be with. I don't know if he will come back from this. You have to remember this isn't down to you. Things change, people change. But it does seem to me that someone has his heart. There may be no evidence as he may not be cheating, but just in love with someone else.

There is nothing worse though than being with someone that doesn't want to be with you, that's not in love with you. It's a heavy burden to carry. I'm sorry I hope these words are not found to be too harsh.


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## m.t.t

I may have missed this but what are your ages?


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## Anastasia6

Listen I think some people are being very harsh. If you came back as another person you'd be just as likely to get advice about doing the 180 where you focus on improving yourself and don't put your life on hold. That's what it sounds like you are doing. 

There does come a point when you can't ignore that your relationship is broken and that you can't fix it by yourself. I think you should visit another attorney and I believe they told you to visit an accountant as well due to the business. If so you should do that. I disagree with the advice about stopping helping with the business as that is your source of income too. It's your job not something you just do out of the goodness of your heart. 

I do think at some point you are going to do something to move the goal post. I think I'd make sure the attorney or accountant appointment isn't a secret and if asked simply state 'it is obvious that you aren't interested in being married so I'm going to see what I need to do to get that ball rolling' He'll either be on board or he'll have to admit there's a problem. He will have to decide if he wants to be married or not. That of course has the danger of maybe he doesn't want to be married. But if he doesn't he most likely isn't going to just change his mind.


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## MattMatt

DownByTheRiver said:


> OP mentioned "if there's any remorse." I don't know. Let's ask men. Do you feel remorse about getting sex outside of whatever relationship you're in, or is it just fear or losing the partner?
> 
> Maybe it's just who is most vocal, but I've not noted a lot of remorse from men cheating for sex. So many of them justify it as their most important need not being met, a concept most women can't wrap their head around. Or "it just happened."
> 
> And then there's the whole "tip of the iceberg" problem.


In my case I felt so much remorse that after I confessed to my wife my idiotic one night revenge affair I had a breakdown that required a course of antidepressants.


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## DownByTheRiver

Thanks, Matt. What was it about the moment that at the time you I went ahead and did it, even though you deeply regretted it later? You said it was a revenge affair. You don't have to answer this but does that mean that she had cheated on you first? Because I can understand how that dynamic works.


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## MattMatt

Yes. She had an affair, but she told me in advance, so it wasn't really cheating, from her point of view.

I coped by drinking way too much and met another lost and borderline alcoholic in a writer's group and we were an "accident" waiting to happen.


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## DownByTheRiver

It's still immense betrayal. Honestly I can't blame anyone for having revenge sex under certain circumstances. Betrayal just opens up a can of worms and I know my first reaction is usually to even the playing field if for no other reason than to make myself feel like I'm not just rolling over and being taken for granted. I'm sorry you punished yourself so much for it. I hope it was a combination of things and not just remorse for what you did but mourning the entire situation.


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## MattMatt

I felt badly because I knew better, I think.


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## tommy88

So he does essential work and is not in lockdown but that behaviour sounds like my partner a lot. Gets angry, no patience, nothing is thier fault, pushes me away.. I think that all come from spending too much time together in lockdown, if that´s what you are doing.. amazing behaviour change. They didn´t notice til I pointed it out.


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## DownByTheRiver

MattMatt said:


> I felt badly because I knew better, I think.


Yeah. No one likes to be dragged down to a level of ethics they wouldn't normally endorse.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Thanks everyone for your support, encouragement, slapping me on the hand and all of the above. 
I had a melt down last night, yelled and cried a bit and low and behold, I got a little more clarity.
I still need to read the codependence book, looks like I might have time this week, husband is gone till Saturday on work.

I'm definitely putting my spin on things, but here goes:
Life has been very challenging for me the past 3-4 years, having to take care of Mom, our son, stepping into a bigger role in our business. At the end of the day, many days, I am tapped out, exhausted, and even resentful. Husband has disappointed me in some key areas, and that kept me from putting my efforts towards what I knew was important to him. Kind of like a passive aggressive scenario, but under the surface more...I didn't really even give it much thought. Just thought if I gave in other areas, it would be good enough. AND I have given in other areas, and I have tried to look past my own disappointment and resentment. I have tried to accept his limitations, we all have them. I am easily content, which unfortunately doesn't really help in this scenario either because that translates into complacency.

If you recall, I said I have had most of the power throughout our marriage, knowing that he needed more, more attention, more time together, etc. etc.

Anyway, what happened is that he wanted more from me in specific areas (I've already mentioned them) and I failed to make it a priority and he became increasingly disappointed, he tried to look past it, he tried hard to elicit the response he wanted...and he got crumbs and he got tired of trying and one day decided he'd had enough. (This part he actually admitted last night)

Perhaps if we had figured out a way to communicate better, at least if I had talked about my disappointments UP FRONT instead of just trying to handle it, which is what I do, I just try to handle it all, our outcome could have been different. I would have dealt with my disappointments and resentment up front, and been in a better position to HEAR and LISTEN to what he needed, and make a better effort.

He admitted to me that it's been going on for several years and recently he just had enough.

We did talk briefly about his first marriage and I told him he had better not do to me like he did her since all these years I never once betrayed him. He seemed surprised that I brought it up. He then defended himself as well and said he has never betrayed me either. I left it at that, he's not open to hearing any of my explanations (I did not dive into the recent difficulties for myself, it would just sound like excuses that he's lived through firsthand) I apologized for yelling and told him I was going to fight for this marriage.

I did tell him that the part that I found the hardest to deal with was that I never know if I'm going to say or do the one thing that sends him over the edge and packing, and he admitted that he didn't think there was one thing I could do or say that would result in that. He said several times he was just focusing on work, that's all anyone ever wants him for anyway. He also admitted that I too am working really hard.

So there we go.
I stood up for myself (not in a calm fashion, but I don't think calm works with him anyway at first)
I needed to get his REAL attention and I got it.
I got more information and clarity.
I feel like there might be hope, but then that's always my nature regardless.
I'm going to marinate on this some more, read that co dependence book, oh, and work...

Again, thank you everyone for your input.


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## 3Xnocharm

So his plan was instead of divorcing you, he’s just going to stay married to you forever and make you miserable by not participating in an actual marriage with you, forever? That to me sounds way more miserable than any divorce could be. So it’s OK for him to disappoint you, but you’re not supposed to disappoint him... got it. 

You two need to get outside help. If he isn’t going to work with you to fix things, how long do you plan to live with banging your head on his brick wall? He needs to grow up a bit here, and face this, and keep opening up until everything is out there, so it can be dealt with. I knew you were going to have to get angry in order to get any information. As it had been, you were allowing him to just go about his life while you were flailing desperately trying not to drown. That’s not fair. I’m glad you finally got some information out of him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## azimuth

So you had to have a breakdown to get him to notice you, and he when begrudgingly talked to you.....he decided that everything is your fault? He's acting this way because he's disappointed in you? And instead of talking to you about it the past few YEARS, he decided to just emotionally abandon you? Despite the 6+ months of you trying your absolute hardest and trying to communicate and trying to fix the marriage, he just let you flail? I'm failing to see what he brings to the table that would make you want to stay so badly and accept this abuse. If you accept this now, this is how it will be for the rest of your life.


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## lucy999

I'm glad you finally got some answers. So now you should offer to go to marital counseling (like was mentioned upthread) to learn how the both of you can effectively communicate. I see you're still taking on the lion's share of the blame--saying YOU should've told him how you felt. True, but it goes both ways. He should've been more communicative, too. 

And, you were taking care of your mom. And you and your husband's son. And you and your husband's business. It's not like you were off gallavanting with your girlfriends with not a care in the world. I get that a marriage needs weeding and watering, but why couldn't he take a bigger role in caring for his son? You could've hired someone to take care of some of the business things, but you didn't. Your husband still sounds selfish. 

If he says he doesn't have time for MC? He needs to make time and if he doesn't, you have your answer on how to proceed.

I think it's deplorable that he let his resentment fester for a few years and then one day makes his decision to unplug from the marriage without ccing you on that memo. All the while watching you twist in the wind, torturing yourself. That's a special kind of cruel. How incredibly hurtful.

I am hopeful you two can forge a path together now.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

YES. I agree with all of you. 
I believe that he's dealing with crap and I'm the easiest target and while I may have some things I should have done better, so did he, and yes it feels like I am taking the lion's share in a very unfair way. I 100% agree. I'm mad that he gets to be mad and I don't. That sounds so childish, but there it is.
I'm going to have to work through some of this anger and resentment of mine, I am working with my own therapist.
End goal is to save my marriage, Still.
BUT I do not want _this marriage_
My goal is for a much better one, so no, I'm not going to settle for what's going on now.
How long will it take. I don't know?
How long will I try? I don't know?
Perhaps I will set a deadline and in the meantime we pay down debt, work on growing the business (seems to be the only thing we are good at as a team these days) and de clutter and simplify. That way if I hit my wall and call it, there won't be quite as much _stuff_ to fool with.

Also, he's not bringing a whole lot to the table right now, in fact he's chopping legs off the table and it's lopsided.
But he used to, and I still see that potential.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> BUT I do not want _this marriage._
> My goal is for a much better one, so no, I'm not going to settle for what's going on now.


It can be done. If both of you are willing (key word--both), you can build a new and improved marriage.


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## MattMatt

@AlmostEmptyNester This is what I have dubbed NHS, or Nearest Human Syndrome. The nearest human gets it in the neck, even though they didn't do anything.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> It can be done. If both of you are willing (key word--both), you can build a new and improved marriage.


YES it has been very painful, and it is cruel, and it seems quite selfish of him.

But isn't it also selfish to make no effort to spice things up in the bedroom, knowing full well your mate wants to try different things? Knowing that you have in the past tried all sorts of things and that you have the capacity to have a rich sex life, but don't bother with the effort. Isn't is selfish to allow him to shower you with massages and foreplay and still get the same old sex in return, the same two to four positions/things? AND to let this go on for a couple years? To ignore the props and toys and items bought for your (my) pleasure and not be willing to break them out of the drawer but maybe once or twice, or maybe not at all because ouch that looks like that will hurt. Wouldn't you feel rejected? Repeatedly rejected? 

Just trying to gain perspective and empathy over here and thought I would try on his shoes for a minute.

Yes, and I will wait to see if he gets on board, but for now I'm focusing on the things I can control.
In order for the marriage to be where I really want it to be, he will definitely need to be actively working on it and himself in some fashion. I know he's capable, but he has to want it, has to want me. He is NOT there. He may never get there, but I think I need to be patient a bit longer, to really prove that I'm NOT whoever it is he _thinks_ I am when his inner dialogue runs away with negativity towards me.

The reality of the situation is that while I lapsed in some of his key areas, I gave pretty stinkin' good in the others. Most of the people who know us are baffled, but then nobody really knows what goes on between a couple except them, and then even then, we all see things from our own perspective.

He used to have me placed quite high on a pedestal, I think I took that for granted, and that was definitely my bad. I should have nurtured our relationship more, and maybe fussed over "the daily grind" a little less. In my opinion, none of that should be resulting in his attitude now, so like MattMatt said, it's the NHS. I am hoping eventually husband finds his way out and realizes he attributed things to me that I simply didn't do or simply weren't that horrible.

AND then again as we have all at least suspected, perhaps the catalyst is outside...an emotional or physical affair. I believe him when he denies it (yes yes, get mad at me for it) but it does me no good to go down that rabbit hole unless I'm willing to dig, and I'm not.


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## lucy999

Wait--is this all about sex then?


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## Divinely Favored

lucy999 said:


> Wait--is this all about sex then?


Kinda seems that may be a part of it. I bet his LL is physical intimacy.

"But isn't it also selfish to make no effort to spice things up in the bedroom, knowing full well your mate wants to try different things? Knowing that you have in the past tried all sorts of things and that you have the capacity to have a rich sex life, but don't bother with the effort. Isn't is selfish to allow him to shower you with massages and foreplay and still get the same old sex in return, the same two to four positions/things? AND to let this go on for a couple years? Wouldn't you feel rejected? Repeatedly rejected? 

Just trying to gain perspective and empathy over here and thought I would try on his shoes for a minute.

The reality of the situation is that while I lapsed in some of his key areas, I gave pretty stinkin' good in the others. 

He used to have me placed quite high on a pedestal, I think I took that for granted, and that was definitely my bad. I should have nurtured our relationship more, and maybe fussed over "the daily grind" a little less. In my opinion, none of that should be resulting in his attitude now, 
[/QUOTE]


Hard for a spouse to understand if husbands LL is physical intimacy followed by words of affirmation, and the wife holds out and is quite often critical toward the husband, then the husband will not feel loved....it does not matter what "other things" you do for them. They will feel like they do not matter to their wife. 

Thing is there has to be communication...if one does not feel cared for they need to speak up. I think alot of times a person will do for a spouse what their own love language is instead of what their spouses LL is. So no matter how much they do, it is as if they are doing nothing at all.

I am this way and had my wife on a pedestal. Her attitude and witholding had me at a breaking point. We had 2 young children and i finally got to a point if something did not change, i was looking for an exit. It hurt to feel she did not give a crap for me. She was critical of alot no matter how much i did it was not good enough. You finally get to a point it is screw it and screw her. I finally got to a breaking point and dropped years worth of hurt and resentment in her lap. She was stunned as she never knew i felt that way. I held in the hurts and the resentment grew until i could not hold it any more. It was killing me like a cancer. 
Now we truely communicate and it is better than ever. If i have issue with her...i tell her and the behavior is changed.


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## lucy999

IIRC, they opened their bedroom long ago, then shut it. So now I'm _really_ curious if this is the crux of the problem.


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## azimuth

From her first post:



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I asked him point blank the other day if he was mad at me or tired of me. I called him on his behavior and let him know that the way he was talking/not talking to me made it seem as if I had done something wrong or needed to fix something. He refused to answer any of my direct questions, just looked at me and said there was nothing I could do to fix it, and he refused to talk about it any further, he literally said "we are not having this discussion" and told me that I just needed to go about my business.



She asked him what was wrong. He refused to answer. She came here for advice to learn how to fix her marriage. She's CLEARLY trying to fix it.

Personally, I think he said the sex stuff to throw you off his trail and get you off his back. Now you'll be scrambling to try and "fix it" alone while he decides that nothing you do will be good enough. He's checked out of the marriage. He's biding his time, imo, and I don't want you to be blindsided. I think there's a very strong possibility that he's planning to leave and waiting for the right time that will benefit him the most. In the meantime he'll let you flail and service him sexually. I'm not trying to be harsh. The person you're married to, I can't even call a man, appalls me. His behavior shows that he doesn't give a damn about how you're feeling.

You are concerned about your 24 years together and didn't want to throw it away. You can take comfort in that you didn't, he did. He is the one who doesn't care about those years and is willing to throw it all away. It doesn't change how YOU feel about them. Ending the marriage doesn't mean those years go away either. You still have them and they'll forever be a part of your history.

I say this gently, you need to snoop and find out what's going on. Or just change the locks one day when he's on a trip. This limbo state and thinking you're the problem will destroy you from the inside out.


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## Affaircare

@AlmostEmptyNester,

If you don't mind I want to address two parts of your post:



> But isn't it also selfish to make no effort to spice things up in the bedroom, knowing full well your mate wants to try different things? Knowing that you have in the past tried all sorts of things and that you have the capacity to have a rich sex life, but don't bother with the effort. Isn't is selfish to allow him to shower you with massages and foreplay and still get the same old sex in return, the same two to four positions/things? AND to let this go on for a couple years? To ignore the props and toys and items bought for your (my) pleasure and not be willing to break them out of the drawer but maybe once or twice, or maybe not at all because ouch that looks like that will hurt. Wouldn't you feel rejected? Repeatedly rejected?


and


> The reality of the situation is that while I lapsed in some of his key areas, I gave pretty stinkin' good in the others. Most of the people who know us are baffled, but then nobody really knows what goes on between a couple except them, and then even then, we all see things from our own perspective.


Let's start by addressing the second one first, because it's a little easier to put into words. I'm sure you've heard of the Five Love Languages (here's the quiz: Quizzes - The 5 Love Languages®). I personally think there are way more than just five love languages, but for theories sake and this discussion, let's stick with the five. The creator of the Five Love Languages believes that we give and receive love in different ways, like speaking in different languages, and that sometimes a person may be behaving very lovingly but if that's not how you "receive" love you would miss it and not "hear" it as being loved--just like if you spoke French and your hubby spoke Russian, and he told you over and over in Russian that he loved you, but you wouldn't hear it because you speak French. Here's the story I like to tell so people can kind of understand. There is a married man and lady. The man very much loves his wife and wants to show her how much he loves her, so he goes to the garage every night and washes her car and waxes it and cleans the interior and makes sure the oil and gas are full. He wants her to be comfortable in the car and SAFE, so he takes care of her by taking care of her car. Meanwhile the lady in the relationship very much loves her hubby and want him to love her, but every night he leaves her alone and spends HOURS with that damn car and ignores her, leaving her lonely and resentful. See? HE is showing her love in a language she does not "hear" it as love, and because she doesn't, she feels UNLOVED. 

I suspect there may be something along this line between you and your hubby. The hubby in my story is going to be pretty darn shocked when his wife finally says to him: "THAT'S IT! I'm not spending one more night alone while you go lavish that car with attention. You love that car so much you can have it--I'm leaving you!" He thought he was "giving pretty stinking good" because he was trying to give her love in his language...but she never received the love in the way that she needed or could understand. And I suspect your hubby is like the lady. You may have been giving in other ways, but the way that he primarily receives was neglects so he got resentful and lonely. Eventually he couldn't take it anymore. So it seems to me that one very good thing you could do would be to find out what his Love Language is, and then whenever you want to demonstrate to him how loved he is, you show it to him IN HIS LOVE LANGUAGE (so that he is able to perceive it as love). Make sense? Not YOUR love language...his. Naturally the idea is that in a healthy marriage he would reciprocate, but for the moment, you are here and we are focusing on you and what you could do to grow. Okay?

BTW, the Five Love Languages are: acts of service, gift-giving, physical touch, quality time, and words of affirmation. I myself am #1 Physical Touch, #2 Words of Affirmation and #3 Quality Time. 

Now let's look at the first paragraph, which is kind of a natural segue:



> But isn't it also selfish to make no effort to spice things up in the bedroom, knowing full well your mate wants to try different things? Knowing that you have in the past tried all sorts of things and that you have the capacity to have a rich sex life, but don't bother with the effort. Isn't is selfish to allow him to shower you with massages and foreplay and still get the same old sex in return, the same two to four positions/things? AND to let this go on for a couple years? To ignore the props and toys and items bought for your (my) pleasure and not be willing to break them out of the drawer but maybe once or twice, or maybe not at all because ouch that looks like that will hurt. Wouldn't you feel rejected? Repeatedly rejected?


You know I have two thoughts on this. First, it makes no sense to expect a sex life to get more and More and MORE spicy as the years go by! I mean, let's talk turkey here: when we meet and are infatuated, sex is on our minds constantly, desire is at its highest, and we have to squeeze it in when we can so it's spicy! Then we get married, and the infatuation mellows to a red-hot ember, and kids and jobs and bills and family are on our minds along with the sex, and desire is still there but not as high as when we were infatuated, and we can have sex whenever because we're together all the time. Yes you still want them and crave that physical connection, but no over the years it just doesn't get more spicy like an adrenalin junkie. So that is not a realistic expectation. In real life, sex is each of you making love to the other...not "get my rocks off my way."

Second, if one spouse wants to buy the other spouse toys that they didn't ask for, or wants them to wear lingerie that will be taken off in 1 minute or is pokey and uncomfortable, or tries to make them do positions or acts that they don't absolutely love and want to do of their own accord--that wouldn't really be loving to them at all! That would be 100% focusing on self rather than focusing on the partner. Thus, I'm not sure about "selfish" or "not selfish" but I will say this: if you only like 2-4 positions, and you aren't into some props and toys, or aren't into certain outfits, etc... THAT IS JUST YOU. That's the way you enjoy sex. That's how you express yourself sexually, and that's part of who you ARE. Isn't it just as selfish to keep pushing a partner who doesn't want the toy that you do? Or who doesn't want to try the Butter Churner cuz it gives them a neck cramp? Or who doesn't like wearing a bustier cuz they can't breathe!? 

Honestly, I would say this: be honest with yourself and with him and let him know how you prefer to express yourself sexually. Give yourself permission to be you and share you. But simultaneously, give some true effort to being open-minded or trying something a little out of your "comfort zone" that is just something you haven't tried before. Yeah, have sexual values and boundaries, but have a little bit of an adventurous spirit within your boundaries. Make sense? It is not reasonable for him to expect you to do things that are WAY outside your boundaries even if he does give you massages and foreplay. It IS reasonable for him to expect you to put in the effort to stay interested in him and participate in enjoying making love. I think the key is that HE would make love to YOU...and you make love to him (instead of thinking about "I want my orgasm").


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

azimuth said:


> From her first post:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She asked him what was wrong. He refused to answer. She came here for advice to learn how to fix her marriage. She's CLEARLY trying to fix it.
> 
> Personally, I think he said the sex stuff to throw you off his trail and get you off his back. Now you'll be scrambling to try and "fix it" alone while he decides that nothing you do will be good enough. He's checked out of the marriage. He's biding his time, imo, and I don't want you to be blindsided. I think there's a very strong possibility that he's planning to leave and waiting for the right time that will benefit him the most. In the meantime he'll let you flail and service him sexually. I'm not trying to be harsh. The person you're married to, I can't even call a man, appalls me. His behavior shows that he doesn't give a damn about how you're feeling.
> 
> You are concerned about your 24 years together and didn't want to throw it away. You can take comfort in that you didn't, he did. He is the one who doesn't care about those years and is willing to throw it all away. It doesn't change how YOU feel about them. Ending the marriage doesn't mean those years go away either. You still have them and they'll forever be a part of your history.
> 
> I say this gently, you need to snoop and find out what's going on. Or just change the locks one day when he's on a trip. This limbo state and thinking you're the problem will destroy you from the inside out.



I hear you and I don't disagree.
It is very possible that he's just waiting, waiting but clearly not working on it...waiting to see if it gets worse, he certainly can't be waiting to see if it gets better, he's given me literally NO DIRECTION to go, said I couldn't fix it. So if he believes it's not fixable, or that I can't fix it, then he doesn't think it will ever get better. 

Today I had a very full day at the office, the office is kind of a mess, we did some interviews, the key person leaves tomorrow, a newbie is struggling to cover her duties and we are in our busy season. So the newbie messed up on something that affected one of my husband's jobs, and he called me to let me know, and then asked me what I was doing that she was messing up like that. And I explained I had been doing reports and interviews yadda yadda.

10 minutes later I was FURIOUS. I still am. I texted him and told him I was eating bon bons all day.
DAMN am I STEAMED.
Not sure I'm going to find the motivation to be pleasant and work on our marriage for a while, I just want to give the cold shoulder right back to him.

But you know what's so stupid, he probably wouldn't even notice.

I hope this doesn't destroy me, but I sure would like to get off the roller coaster.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Affaircare said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester,
> 
> If you don't mind I want to address two parts of your post:
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> Let's start by addressing the second one first, because it's a little easier to put into words. I'm sure you've heard of the Five Love Languages (here's the quiz: Quizzes - The 5 Love Languages®). I personally think there are way more than just five love languages, but for theories sake and this discussion, let's stick with the five. The creator of the Five Love Languages believes that we give and receive love in different ways, like speaking in different languages, and that sometimes a person may be behaving very lovingly but if that's not how you "receive" love you would miss it and not "hear" it as being loved--just like if you spoke French and your hubby spoke Russian, and he told you over and over in Russian that he loved you, but you wouldn't hear it because you speak French. Here's the story I like to tell so people can kind of understand. There is a married man and lady. The man very much loves his wife and wants to show her how much he loves her, so he goes to the garage every night and washes her car and waxes it and cleans the interior and makes sure the oil and gas are full. He wants her to be comfortable in the car and SAFE, so he takes care of her by taking care of her car. Meanwhile the lady in the relationship very much loves her hubby and want him to love her, but every night he leaves her alone and spends HOURS with that damn car and ignores her, leaving her lonely and resentful. See? HE is showing her love in a language she does not "hear" it as love, and because she doesn't, she feels UNLOVED.
> 
> I suspect there may be something along this line between you and your hubby. The hubby in my story is going to be pretty darn shocked when his wife finally says to him: "THAT'S IT! I'm not spending one more night alone while you go lavish that car with attention. You love that car so much you can have it--I'm leaving you!" He thought he was "giving pretty stinking good" because he was trying to give her love in his language...but she never received the love in the way that she needed or could understand. And I suspect your hubby is like the lady. You may have been giving in other ways, but the way that he primarily receives was neglects so he got resentful and lonely. Eventually he couldn't take it anymore. So it seems to me that one very good thing you could do would be to find out what his Love Language is, and then whenever you want to demonstrate to him how loved he is, you show it to him IN HIS LOVE LANGUAGE (so that he is able to perceive it as love). Make sense? Not YOUR love language...his. Naturally the idea is that in a healthy marriage he would reciprocate, but for the moment, you are here and we are focusing on you and what you could do to grow. Okay?
> 
> BTW, the Five Love Languages are: acts of service, gift-giving, physical touch, quality time, and words of affirmation. I myself am #1 Physical Touch, #2 Words of Affirmation and #3 Quality Time.
> 
> Now let's look at the first paragraph, which is kind of a natural segue:
> 
> 
> 
> You know I have two thoughts on this. First, it makes no sense to expect a sex life to get more and More and MORE spicy as the years go by! I mean, let's talk turkey here: when we meet and are infatuated, sex is on our minds constantly, desire is at its highest, and we have to squeeze it in when we can so it's spicy! Then we get married, and the infatuation mellows to a red-hot ember, and kids and jobs and bills and family are on our minds along with the sex, and desire is still there but not as high as when we were infatuated, and we can have sex whenever because we're together all the time. Yes you still want them and crave that physical connection, but no over the years it just doesn't get more spicy like an adrenalin junkie. So that is not a realistic expectation. In real life, sex is each of you making love to the other...not "get my rocks off my way."
> 
> Second, if one spouse wants to buy the other spouse toys that they didn't ask for, or wants them to wear lingerie that will be taken off in 1 minute or is pokey and uncomfortable, or tries to make them do positions or acts that they don't absolutely love and want to do of their own accord--that wouldn't really be loving to them at all! That would be 100% focusing on self rather than focusing on the partner. Thus, I'm not sure about "selfish" or "not selfish" but I will say this: if you only like 2-4 positions, and you aren't into some props and toys, or aren't into certain outfits, etc... THAT IS JUST YOU. That's the way you enjoy sex. That's how you express yourself sexually, and that's part of who you ARE. Isn't it just as selfish to keep pushing a partner who doesn't want the toy that you do? Or who doesn't want to try the Butter Churner cuz it gives them a neck cramp? Or who doesn't like wearing a bustier cuz they can't breathe!?
> 
> Honestly, I would say this: be honest with yourself and with him and let him know how you prefer to express yourself sexually. Give yourself permission to be you and share you. But simultaneously, give some true effort to being open-minded or trying something a little out of your "comfort zone" that is just something you haven't tried before. Yeah, have sexual values and boundaries, but have a little bit of an adventurous spirit within your boundaries. Make sense? It is not reasonable for him to expect you to do things that are WAY outside your boundaries even if he does give you massages and foreplay. It IS reasonable for him to expect you to put in the effort to stay interested in him and participate in enjoying making love. I think the key is that HE would make love to YOU...and you make love to him (instead of thinking about "I want my orgasm").



Thank you for your reply, I can tell you took a lot of time and thought, and I appreciate that.
The book you mentioned is on my reading list actually and I recently took the short quiz.
"the Five Love Languages are: acts of service, gift-giving, physical touch, quality time, and words of affirmation."

My biggie was words of affirmation and all the rest got the same score.
I think his are gift-giving and physical touch. I was thinking about asking him to take the quiz next time he is home, but since he's made it very clear he's not interested in working on the relationship, I am pretty sure I'll be met with an eye roll at best.

And I agree, our communication should be better, both of us.
Maybe some day we will get the opportunity to work on that.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Divinely Favored said:


> Kinda seems that may be a part of it. I bet his LL is physical intimacy.
> 
> "But isn't it also selfish to make no effort to spice things up in the bedroom, knowing full well your mate wants to try different things? Knowing that you have in the past tried all sorts of things and that you have the capacity to have a rich sex life, but don't bother with the effort. Isn't is selfish to allow him to shower you with massages and foreplay and still get the same old sex in return, the same two to four positions/things? AND to let this go on for a couple years? Wouldn't you feel rejected? Repeatedly rejected?
> 
> Just trying to gain perspective and empathy over here and thought I would try on his shoes for a minute.
> 
> The reality of the situation is that while I lapsed in some of his key areas, I gave pretty stinkin' good in the others.
> 
> He used to have me placed quite high on a pedestal, I think I took that for granted, and that was definitely my bad. I should have nurtured our relationship more, and maybe fussed over "the daily grind" a little less. In my opinion, none of that should be resulting in his attitude now,



Hard for a spouse to understand if husbands LL is physical intimacy followed by words of affirmation, and the wife holds out and is quite often critical toward the husband, then the husband will not feel loved....it does not matter what "other things" you do for them. They will feel like they do not matter to their wife.

Thing is there has to be communication...if one does not feel cared for they need to speak up. I think alot of times a person will do for a spouse what their own love language is instead of what their spouses LL is. So no matter how much they do, it is as if they are doing nothing at all.

I am this way and had my wife on a pedestal. Her attitude and witholding had me at a breaking point. We had 2 young children and i finally got to a point if something did not change, i was looking for an exit. It hurt to feel she did not give a crap for me. She was critical of alot no matter how much i did it was not good enough. You finally get to a point it is screw it and screw her. I finally got to a breaking point and dropped years worth of hurt and resentment in her lap. She was stunned as she never knew i felt that way. I held in the hurts and the resentment grew until i could not hold it any more. It was killing me like a cancer.
Now we truely communicate and it is better than ever. If i have issue with her...i tell her and the behavior is changed.
[/QUOTE]

I am so glad you resolved things and learned how to communicate.
I will say that I believe our love languages are different and that could be a contributing factor to his just checking out, saying he had enough and thinks I can't fix it.
I don't believe I've been critical though, but there's a possibility that he doesn't feel respected or appreciated. Again though, I wonder if some of that is how he feels others have treated him and I'm getting lumped in with them. I know he feels that way about some of our friends and family. 
The reality is that I'm still speculating, but it's an educated speculation, one born from introspection and examining past conversations etc.


----------



## Beach123

He sure is quick to pile on the crap to make you feel bad for someone else’s error.
Man I’d let him have a huge piece of my mind!

I can’t understand why you don’t lash out at him. No one should put up with that crappy behavior.

and what exactly is the point in continuing in this M when he treats you badly? It is not loving on his behalf.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> Here's the thing: I don't like being deceived, whether it's intentional or not. You can talk yourself into staying in a sham marriage all you want. But please don't insult our collective intelligence here by trying to pass off what you are doing as "improving" yourself. Yes, I'm being harsh, because you need a swift kick in the ass.
> 
> Your husband has crapped all over the marriage. If you want to sit and take it that's fine with me. No skin off my nose. My very strong reaction was to you trying to fool me, and most of us, with this nonsense. Find your spine. Find your self-worth. Find your self respect. A HUSBAND DOES NOT TREAT HIS WIFE THE WAY YOUR HUSBAND TREATS YOU.
> 
> Suggestion: Consider renting an apartment with a six month lease. Tell Mr. Wonderful you are leaving and give him a six month deadline to poop or get off the pot.



I'm not trying to insult anyone.
I am working on myself, it's one of the few things I can control and by focusing on that in my "quiet" time, it helps me. I'm a person of action, I have plans, this gives me a plan of action, steps to take each day, positive things to think about. I journal about it almost every day, listen to a couple podcasts and give myself daily goals for both my thoughts and actions. I also fail miserably half the time, and since I'm results oriented, that in itself is distressing some days. LOL

Would I have done this if my husband hadn't started being a jerk? NO - (I have never been a self-help kind of person, I seek to grow as a person through other avenues - like physical challenges, or reading about other interests, but not self help books...)
AND he pointed that out, he said, "why did if have to get to "here" before you did anything?"
Now if I could only get him to give me a better understanding of what I did, or what he thinks I did, that would be golden.

Also, I don't disagree with your statement, he has crapped all over the marriage.

I don't want to be spineless, and I have felt that way, so I am trying to figure out a way to continue on my plan of action AND not be spineless. I believe I will eventually get to the point where there's a deadline and a poop or get off the pot ultimatum.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Just wanted to say THANK YOU to all of you for your input and advice and suggestions and support. I very much appreciate all of it, even when it's harsh and you are frustrated with me. It is helping me tremendously as I sort out my thoughts and feelings.


----------



## Prodigal

What confuses me most is how you claim you can only control yourself (which is true), but you're allowing your husband to control the narrative of your marriage. Boundaries. Whether you figure out your motivation for the choices you're making, you need boundaries. He's getting away his nonsense because you allow it. No boundaries + no consequences = more living in limbo. JMO.


----------



## Beach123

Prodigal said:


> What confuses me most is how you claim you can only control yourself (which is true), but you're allowing your husband to control the narrative of your marriage. Boundaries. Whether you figure out your motivation for the choices you're making, you need boundaries. He's getting away his nonsense because you allow it. No boundaries + no consequences = more living in limbo. JMO.


yes - I agree... no boundaries will always look like the other person holds all the power... and control of any situation.

you’re still not taking any significant action. That’s what’s holding you back from reclaiming a happier life.

Let’s just say for one minute that you actually filed for divorce - things would change. He may actually tell you what is the problem. Or he may not... either way you get freedom to be free of another person manipulating you and treating you in an unkind way.

you don’t want to be his whipping post? Then tell him to take a hike!!!
Stop trying to appease him when he is mainly looking for opportunities to blame you for everything! Call him to his face what he has been - a real jerk!

staying shows weakness. Have you worked on that with a counselor? Why do you willingly hand him ALL your power on a silver platter?

be strong! Stand up to him for not treating you right!


please explain what you mean when you say you’re “working on yourself?” What exactly does that look like?


----------



## ABHale

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I am sorry that your marriage is at rock bottom and you feel like you didn't matter.
> While there might be some similarities, and I can't speak for my husband's feelings, I do not think my transgressions ran as long or as deep as you are portraying your wife's.
> Yes I took some things for granted. (don't we all?)
> Most recently I did let our sex life get boring and less frequent and I knew it was an issue for him, but made only small efforts to address it.
> I have gone on his business trips, just not as often as he wanted.
> BUT I didn't look at him as just a paycheck, because I was working just as hard at home to make it happen both for our company and taking care of the house, home, and kids.


My wife said she didn’t see me as a paycheck either, her actions have said otherwise. She did admit that she took me for granted. Then she said all I wanted from her was sex. I asked what other one on one time do you give me? She couldn’t answer that because it was none. She was the one that never wanted date nights or a weekend getaway after we started having kids.


----------



## ABHale

Best of luck with this. I hope the two of you are able to fix what is broken in your relationship.

My wife also told me she was going to fight for our marriage when I said I am done fighting for it. Then she refused to give up she responsibilities as a band parent to make time for us that summer. When the kids started back to school our relationship died. She made her choice again about what was higher on her list of priorities.

Your husband is going to need to see that your fighting for the relationship. If he doesn’t respond then it will be your decision of what to do next. I just wish my wife made time for us. You just can’t make someone do what they have on wish to do. You can do everything you can to fight for it but your husband has to do his part as well for your needs.


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## Beach123

Until he makes you his TOP priority by making you feel great within the marriage and safe and protected - there is no marriage. It’s convenience - mainly for him.


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I hear you and I don't disagree.
> It is very possible that he's just waiting, waiting but clearly not working on it...waiting to see if it gets worse, he certainly can't be waiting to see if it gets better, he's given me literally NO DIRECTION to go, said I couldn't fix it. So if he believes it's not fixable, or that I can't fix it, then he doesn't think it will ever get better.
> 
> Today I had a very full day at the office, the office is kind of a mess, we did some interviews, the key person leaves tomorrow, a newbie is struggling to cover her duties and we are in our busy season. So the newbie messed up on something that affected one of my husband's jobs, and he called me to let me know, and then asked me what I was doing that she was messing up like that. And I explained I had been doing reports and interviews yadda yadda.
> 
> 10 minutes later I was FURIOUS. I still am. I texted him and told him I was eating bon bons all day.
> DAMN am I STEAMED.
> Not sure I'm going to find the motivation to be pleasant and work on our marriage for a while, I just want to give the cold shoulder right back to him.
> 
> But you know what's so stupid, he probably wouldn't even notice.
> 
> I hope this doesn't destroy me, but I sure would like to get off the roller coaster.


you can get off the roller coaster and stop being a martyr, only you can do it


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> yes - I agree... no boundaries will always look like the other person holds all the power... and control of any situation.
> 
> you’re still not taking any significant action. That’s what’s holding you back from reclaiming a happier life.
> 
> explain what you mean when you say you’re “working on yourself?” What exactly does that look like?


OK, I'm not going to file for divorce because I don't want one. 
Boundaries are something you set about how people treat you, or how you allow them to treat you. I am working on my boundaries, I haven't actually figured them out yet. In fact, it is on my list of things I'd like to improve on, setting boundaries is on the list. Saying No is on the list.

So that's where working on myself comes in.
I am trying to spend time every day doing the following things:

***Identifying patterns and behavior that hold me back and working on kicking bad habits related to them OUT. For example, in my relationships I tend to take things personally when they aren't necessarily dished out as personal, and then I get hurt feelings, and then I over react to the situation. On a broader scale, I react before thinking in general...I'm a talker, so words are coming out of my mouth before I've really given it any thought. I would like to sit with my reaction a minute or two, and then choose my response. (another example on this same vein: at work I will get worked up about an email or something, which in turns gets the other office people worked up, but 5 or 10 minutes later I've sorted it all out and I'm calm, while they are still worked up as a result of my initial reactions)
Other bad habits I am trying to get rid of: stop complaining, stop interrupting, pay attention. I hate to admit it, but I am bad about paying attention, especially to my husband. He told me something the other day and I just looked at him and said, "I have no memory of you saying that at all, at all." -- Then I worry I'm getting dementia or he's getting dementia, or I'm just so busy juggling ALL THE BALLS that I can't keep up.

***I am listening to podcasts
***I have a reading list - work is too busy for me to get to those yet BTW
***I'd like to be more confident, so I am taking more time on my appearance, not wearing frumpy clothes, putting on mascara, keeping up with my workouts etc.
***I have listed the qualities about the people I most admire and review those each morning (oddly enough my list was all women - I just realized this)

I will say that I am pushing back on him a little bit when it comes to the "kids" so I am hopeful that some of my introspection and self-work is actually working. He was just home for 3 days, and his attitude was actually decent. Nothing earth shattering like affection, but no snark from him either. He brought up our son and was telling me things our son should do, and I said to him, "why are you telling me, shouldn't you be having this discussion with him?" His response was that I didn't like how he handled our son, and so I told him that his input as a father was still valuable even if I chose a different approach. 

We have also been asked to babysit all 3 grandkids in 2 weekends, and I texted him and just said, I'm not doing it by myself. (THERE -- I drew a boundary!!! I'll figure this all out eventually.) Anyway, his response was that he would be home because we haven't seen them in ages.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

ABHale said:


> Best of luck with this. I hope the two of you are able to fix what is broken in your relationship.
> 
> My wife also told me she was going to fight for our marriage when I said I am done fighting for it. Then she refused to give up she responsibilities as a band parent to make time for us that summer. When the kids started back to school our relationship died. She made her choice again about what was higher on her list of priorities.
> 
> Your husband is going to need to see that your fighting for the relationship. If he doesn’t respond then it will be your decision of what to do next. I just wish my wife made time for us. You just can’t make someone do what they have on wish to do. You can do everything you can to fight for it but your husband has to do his part as well for your needs.



I totally believe this. I can't just say it, have a few heart-to-heart talks and expect things to get better. He admitted he got tired of trying, (and he hasn't spelled it out, so I'm making educated guesses as to what the issues were) 

So he's tired of trying, and claims it's been going on for a couple years. 

Which means I've got to show him through action, that I'm fighting for our marriage LONG GAME, not just so things get back to the way they were, because he was unhappy, so why would he want that? Why would I want that?

So I'm going to keep plugging away and hopefully his walls will come down and then we can work on things together.

If not, I suppose at some point I will hit my limits and figure out how I want to proceed.


----------



## WandaJ

@AlmostEmptyNester , can you share what podcasts ate you listening to?


----------



## ABHale

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I hear you and I don't disagree.
> It is very possible that he's just waiting, waiting but clearly not working on it...waiting to see if it gets worse, he certainly can't be waiting to see if it gets better, he's given me literally NO DIRECTION to go, said I couldn't fix it. So if he believes it's not fixable, or that I can't fix it, then he doesn't think it will ever get better.
> 
> Today I had a very full day at the office, the office is kind of a mess, we did some interviews, the key person leaves tomorrow, a newbie is struggling to cover her duties and we are in our busy season. So the newbie messed up on something that affected one of my husband's jobs, and he called me to let me know, and then asked me what I was doing that she was messing up like that. And I explained I had been doing reports and interviews yadda yadda.
> 
> 10 minutes later I was FURIOUS. I still am. I texted him and told him I was eating bon bons all day.
> DAMN am I STEAMED.
> Not sure I'm going to find the motivation to be pleasant and work on our marriage for a while, I just want to give the cold shoulder right back to him.
> 
> But you know what's so stupid, he probably wouldn't even notice.
> 
> I hope this doesn't destroy me, but I sure would like to get off the roller coaster.


That was a **** move on your husband’s part. Totally uncalled for.

Just imagine him showing up at his job with out his pants!!!!

Or

Showing up with a wet crotch because he spilt a drink in his lap.

I know you have been going through hell. There are brighter days to come.


----------



## azimuth

Did he tell you how long he was going to give you to prove yourself? You should probably ask him so you can plan accordingly. If he's not responding to the months' long attempt you've been trying, he's probably already made up his mind.


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He admitted he got tired of trying, (and he hasn't spelled it out, so I'm making educated guesses as to what the issues were)
> 
> So he's tired of trying, and claims it's been going on for a couple years.
> 
> . . . .
> 
> So I'm going to keep plugging away and hopefully his walls will come down and then we can work on things together.


But that's the pisser here. He won't communicate with you. He is _still_ leaving you guessing. How is that fair to you? Has he given you any concrete examples? So really, nothing's changed. You're still holding the blame bag, not knowing why. He admitted to being tired of trying. That's nothing revelatory. We all know he checked out months ago.

And, maybe you missed it. But I'll ask it again. After your talk with him where he finally said he grew tired of trying (whatever that means), your post talked alot about sex. Then I asked if this was all about sex? Is it?


----------



## Beach123

It’s passive aggressive to say “I’m not doing this by myself!”

why not be direct? You could even ask him! “Hey, the kids want us to watch the little ones for the weekend... what do you think? I know I can’t do it alone and I need your help if we consider it.”


----------



## thefam

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Which means I've got to show him through action, that I'm fighting for our marriage LONG GAME, not just so things get back to the way they were, because he was unhappy, so why would he want that? Why would I want that?
> 
> So I'm going to keep plugging away and hopefully his walls will come down and then we can work on things together.
> 
> If not, I suppose at some point I will hit my limits and figure out how I want to proceed.


Hey AlmostEmptyNester!
I've been following your thread. With 5 kids ages 4 months to 6 years old, pretty much all I have time to do is pick a thread and stick with it. Very seldom can I piece enough minutes together to participate. LOL

Anyway, I just wanted to say that although I've never been through anything like this in my marriage, and also not married nearly as long as you (15 years), we've had our share of rough spots to work through. But for the vast majority of our time we have had a wonderful marriage. Our last rough period came recently while I was pregnant with our now 4-month old twins. What an AWFUL time to go through a rough patch, right? I don't think we can pick and choose when it happens though. We're through it now though. The Pandemic did in our marriage the opposite of what it unfortunately did in yours. It took our marriage to another level of closeness, intimacy, and us against the world (and sometimes us again those 5 rugrats...just joking!)
I just personally think that it's okay if you want to work on your marriage rather than walk away from some what you have considered generally 24 good years compared to a few short months of a rough patch. You have been very gracious in this thread from what I see, but you have continuously indicated that you want to save your marriage. I just don't understand why people are so bent on you changing your mind when you keep saying it. 
I so appreciate what a poster said many years ago (I've been here for 8 years, but under another name at first). But I would share some of the rough spots and people would try to convince me to assert myself and go another direction. While I don't ever remember anyone saying I should leave my husband, they often had some awful things to say about him, even stating they don't know why I brought stuff up if I was just going to do what my husband said anyway. I would say to myself, well, I've presented a situation, my husband thinks we should A, and I think we should do B. How do I live with doing "A". 
Of course the responses would be tell him he can't tell you what to do, do B if you want to and tell him to deal with it. But this one poster said that people should stop giving that advice since I have shown that I will follow the lead of my husband, and just looked for help in how to deal with it. I so appreciated that poster. 
This thread is long now, but I don't recall you ever asking "should I leave my husband"? I think it started off more just with you venting and asking people what it sounded like was going on. Then you came to the conclusion that you were going to stick it out regardless of what it was. I am not saying one way or the other what type of man your husband is, because I could only judge from what you say his actions have been during this rough spot. You thought he was a great man for 24 years, and you think he's worth sticking around for. 
You seem to be aware that this could end very badly for your, or it could be something you both overcome. I just hope and pray that it will be something you overcome. But if it isn't, at least you tried to keep your commitment. I just want to present a different viewpoint from the TAM solution to just about every marital problem: divorce them. It seems to be the TAM default solution, but I just don't think it's always the only decision.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

azimuth said:


> Did he tell you how long he was going to give you to prove yourself? You should probably ask him so you can plan accordingly. If he's not responding to the months' long attempt you've been trying, he's probably already made up his mind.


No, the only "reassurance" I've gotten is that he says he has no plans to leave. 
And while basically I am proving a point by bettering myself, this is how the conversation went after my recent meltdown.

I said, "Well I am not giving up on our marriage, I am going to fight for it."
and he said, "All I am doing right now is focusing on work."

Which in my opinion is a better response then I got initially a few months ago, which was "there is nothing you can do to fix it."

Also, I do not feel as if I've been trying for months...I feel like at first I was still just coming to terms with the fact that we actually had a problem. I do feel like I've been putting forth good effort since July, but up to that point I was literally all over the place, there was effort, but it wasn't focused. Now I feel focused.


----------



## ABHale

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I totally believe this. I can't just say it, have a few heart-to-heart talks and expect things to get better. He admitted he got tired of trying, (and he hasn't spelled it out, so I'm making educated guesses as to what the issues were)
> 
> So he's tired of trying, and claims it's been going on for a couple years.
> 
> Which means I've got to show him through action, that I'm fighting for our marriage LONG GAME, not just so things get back to the way they were, because he was unhappy, so why would he want that? Why would I want that?
> 
> So I'm going to keep plugging away and hopefully his walls will come down and then we can work on things together.
> 
> If not, I suppose at some point I will hit my limits and figure out how I want to proceed.


Just remember this isn’t a one way street. He has to give as well. You can’t be the only one trying to fix this. You need to set a date on the calendar. Your husband has to start helping you in fixing the relationship by then. If he doesn’t, then you have a decision to make.

At the very least you are trying to fix the issues. You have done more here in the past few weeks, then my wife has done in 6 years.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> It’s passive aggressive to say “I’m not doing this by myself!”
> 
> why not be direct? You could even ask him! “Hey, the kids want us to watch the little ones for the weekend... what do you think? I know I can’t do it alone and I need your help if we consider it.”


Apparently I am more passive aggressive than I thought.
I thought I was being direct and setting a boundary.


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I totally believe this. I can't just say it, have a few heart-to-heart talks and expect things to get better. He admitted he got tired of trying, *(and he hasn't spelled it out, so I'm making educated guesses as to what the issues were) *
> 
> So he's tired of trying, and claims it's been going on for a couple years.
> 
> Which means I've got to show him through action, that I'm fighting for our marriage LONG GAME, not just so things get back to the way they were, because he was unhappy, so why would he want that? Why would I want that?
> 
> So I'm going to keep plugging away and hopefully his walls will come down and then we can work on things together.
> 
> If not, I suppose at some point I will hit my limits and figure out how I want to proceed.


there's the problem, he says he is not happy, he is fed up trying but refuses to spell it out what the exact problem is. That is passive aggressive ********! You say you want to lay down boundaries, well you haven't and he is simply walking all over you and suggesting that all the problems in your relationship lie with you! You are also falling for it.
You will not save the marriage by pussyfooting around and being weak. You need to be willing to lose this marriage to save it and go scorched earth on his ass. He has no respect for you and you are simply playing a pick me dance and waiting for him to decide to pull the plug or not. You are simply giving HIM time to get his ducks in a row to move on and get his plan in order while you wont know what has hit you when he does.
If he has had a woman on the side, then you are toast. The so called game you are playing now will not end well. You have refused to take any advice on this thread, you have refused to investigate whether he is committing adultery (because you are not ready, when will you be ready, when he is walking out the door?)
You are not playing a long game, you are not playing anything, he is calling all the shots while you have your head buried in the sand, furiously peddling to pander to him without knowing exactly what the problem is, do you see how ridiculous this is? A grown-assed man with any modicum of self respect would discuss the issue and then decide what to do.
And finally, it's not as if you don't have some complaints of your own, he wasn't a perfect husband, so you scrabble around to meet his (unmentioned) needs yet yours go unmet, that is no way to think about going into your so called Long game.
You need to also get your act together.


AlmostEmptyNester said:


> No, the only "reassurance" I've gotten is that he says he has no plans to leave.
> And while basically I am proving a point by bettering myself, this is how the conversation went after my recent meltdown.
> 
> I said, "Well I am not giving up on our marriage, I am going to fight for it."
> and he said, "All I am doing right now is focusing on work."
> 
> Which in my opinion is a better response then I got initially a few months ago, which was "there is nothing you can do to fix it."
> 
> Also, I do not feel as if I've been trying for months...I feel like at first I was still just coming to terms with the fact that we actually had a problem. I do feel like I've been putting forth good effort since July, but up to that point I was literally all over the place, there was effort, but it wasn't focused. Now I feel focused.



Classic "pick me" dance


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Hard for a spouse to understand if husbands LL is physical intimacy followed by words of affirmation, and the wife holds out and is quite often critical toward the husband, then the husband will not feel loved....it does not matter what "other things" you do for them. They will feel like they do not matter to their wife.
> 
> Thing is there has to be communication...if one does not feel cared for they need to speak up. I think alot of times a person will do for a spouse what their own love language is instead of what their spouses LL is. So no matter how much they do, it is as if they are doing nothing at all.
> 
> I am this way and had my wife on a pedestal. Her attitude and witholding had me at a breaking point. We had 2 young children and i finally got to a point if something did not change, i was looking for an exit. It hurt to feel she did not give a crap for me. She was critical of alot no matter how much i did it was not good enough. You finally get to a point it is screw it and screw her. I finally got to a breaking point and dropped years worth of hurt and resentment in her lap. She was stunned as she never knew i felt that way. I held in the hurts and the resentment grew until i could not hold it any more. It was killing me like a cancer.
> Now we truely communicate and it is better than ever. If i have issue with her...i tell her and the behavior is changed.


I am so glad you resolved things and learned how to communicate.
I will say that I believe our love languages are different and that could be a contributing factor to his just checking out, saying he had enough and thinks I can't fix it.
I don't believe I've been critical though, but there's a possibility that he doesn't feel respected or appreciated. Again though, I wonder if some of that is how he feels others have treated him and I'm getting lumped in with them. I know he feels that way about some of our friends and family. 
The reality is that I'm still speculating, but it's an educated speculation, one born from introspection and examining past conversations etc.
[/QUOTE]


the moral of @ABHale story was that he told his wife exactly what was wrong, didn't hold back or play stupid games which is what your husband is doing.
If my husband did this to me, I would say 'husband I know I have not been perfect in this marriage, neither of us have been. i am willing to work on it but you must tell me what you would like me to work on and I will tell you also what i need from you. We can give it say a year. if you cannot tell me what i need to know now, I have waited many months already, I can only assume that you are not willing to work with me, then I will have to make plans for myself, these will involve seeing a lawyer. I shall give you a week to mull over this (he will probably need a bit of time) and then either way I will know what to do.
The problem in your case is you don't know if he is in an affair, cause that changes things and how you would proceed.
As it is you got nothing but hot air and are grappling at straws.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

thefam said:


> Hey AlmostEmptyNester!
> I've been following your thread. With 5 kids ages 4 months to 6 years old, pretty much all I have time to do is pick a thread and stick with it. Very seldom can I piece enough minutes together to participate. LOL
> 
> Anyway, I just wanted to say that although I've never been through anything like this in my marriage, and also not married nearly as long as you (15 years), we've had our share of rough spots to work through. But for the vast majority of our time we have had a wonderful marriage. Our last rough period came recently while I was pregnant with our now 4-month old twins. What an AWFUL time to go through a rough patch, right? I don't think we can pick and choose when it happens though. We're through it now though. The Pandemic did in our marriage the opposite of what it unfortunately did in yours. It took our marriage to another level of closeness, intimacy, and us against the world (and sometimes us again those 5 rugrats...just joking!)
> I just personally think that it's okay if you want to work on your marriage rather than walk away from some what you have considered generally 24 good years compared to a few short months of a rough patch. You have been very gracious in this thread from what I see, but you have continuously indicated that you want to save your marriage. I just don't understand why people are so bent on you changing your mind when you keep saying it.
> I so appreciate what a poster said many years ago (I've been here for 8 years, but under another name at first). But I would share some of the rough spots and people would try to convince me to assert myself and go another direction. While I don't ever remember anyone saying I should leave my husband, they often had some awful things to say about him, even stating they don't know why I brought stuff up if I was just going to do what my husband said anyway. I would say to myself, well, I've presented a situation, my husband thinks we should A, and I think we should do B. How do I live with doing "A".
> Of course the responses would be tell him he can't tell you what to do, do B if you want to and tell him to deal with it. But this one poster said that people should stop giving that advice since I have shown that I will follow the lead of my husband, and just looked for help in how to deal with it. I so appreciated that poster.
> This thread is long now, but I don't recall you ever asking "should I leave my husband"? I think it started off more just with you venting and asking people what it sounded like was going on. Then you came to the conclusion that you were going to stick it out regardless of what it was. I am not saying one way or the other what type of man your husband is, because I could only judge from what you say his actions have been during this rough spot. You thought he was a great man for 24 years, and you think he's worth sticking around for.
> You seem to be aware that this could end very badly for your, or it could be something you both overcome. I just hope and pray that it will be something you overcome. But if it isn't, at least you tried to keep your commitment. I just want to present a different viewpoint from the TAM solution to just about every marital problem: divorce them. It seems to be the TAM default solution, but I just don't think it's always the only decision.


The Fam, you have your hands full for sure, thank you for taking the time to type out your thoughts and share your experience. I have written down many lists in my note taking and have managed to fill in the list of 
*what I liked about our marriage (before) and 
*why I like him and 
*what our ideal marriage looks like and 
*how did the reality compare to what I think is ideal, how do we bridge the gap and 
*what things do I need to let go of and -- anyway, you get the gist 

The one page that remains completely blank is 
*what does life look like if this doesn't work out

Also, you are correct in that you only have a little bit to go by in trying to ascertain what he might really be like in real life, or me for that matter, I am painting a picture from my perspective and certainly it's human nature to paint it favorable towards ourselves.

AND while there's been a lot of feedback that doesn't fit into my goal, reading it and re-reading it has really helped me sort through my feelings and position.

Thank you for your support, I appreciate it and I appreciate your view point.


----------



## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> *The one page that remains completely blank is
> *what does life look like if this doesn't work out*


This is what is keeping you on the emotional rollercoaster and playing a 'pickme' dance while you are still in the dark about what he has been up to, what he wants to change, etc. Your husband is actually very cruel but you are too scared to play him at his own game.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> But that's the pisser here. He won't communicate with you. He is _still_ leaving you guessing. How is that fair to you? Has he given you any concrete examples? So really, nothing's changed. You're still holding the blame bag, not knowing why. He admitted to being tired of trying. That's nothing revelatory. We all know he checked out months ago.
> 
> And, maybe you missed it. But I'll ask it again. After your talk with him where he finally said he grew tired of trying (whatever that means), your post talked alot about sex. Then I asked if this was all about sex? Is it?


I do not think this is all about sex. I think there's a lot more going on, the sex part is just one of the more obvious to me as far as him expressing a desire to have it more frequently and a desire for me to be a bit more adventurous and me essentially letting it take a back seat the past few years. I mentioned some other obvious ones, like traveling with him on work trips. He literally put together a mobile office for me in his work vehicle.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

WandaJ said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester , can you share what podcasts ate you listening to?


I am listening to two podcasts by Dr Lee Baucom


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Apparently I am more passive aggressive than I thought.
> I thought I was being direct and setting a boundary.


Although I do like the way you worded it much better. LOL


----------



## 2&out

This could take some time. I admire your willingness to work towards making him want the marriage again. If he did not see any hope IMO he would not be considerate or "nice", non confrontational to U. To me that means/seems he has not completely given up. But, in his mind he may feel he has been trying for years - and so he may need a couple to see that U really do want to be with him. In my opinion he may feel it isn't bad being with / married to U. Not great, but not worth the drama and work of divorce and has accepted the "is what it is" and like A LOT of people - that he doesn't have the marriage and partnership he hoped to have. He realizes starting again - as we get older - it is likely he never will, so why leave. There is more down side in leaving than staying - especially with kids as part of the picture.

I think all is not lost - but it will take time, patience, and work on both sides to make your marriage what U want. It may take him a while and I am sure longer than U want for him to start doing his part. But if happens might be worth it. Only U can decide if U have the patience and desire for that to happen.


----------



## ABHale

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Although I do like the way you worded it much better. LOL


😂😂😂🤣


----------



## azimuth

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I said, "Well I am not giving up on our marriage, I am going to fight for it."
> and he said, "All I am doing right now is focusing on work."


Do you feel like you deserve this kind of response?


----------



## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I mentioned some other obvious ones, like traveling with him on work trips. He literally put together a mobile office for me in his work vehicle.


Did he travel as much back then as he does now? Did he have a plan as to who would care for the office at home, your son, and your mom (if applicable)?


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I said, "Well I am not giving up on our marriage, I am going to fight for it."
> and he said, "All I am doing right now is focusing on work."


Well THAT was pretty harsh ....


----------



## ScottL

Hey, I know this guy. Kind of. It was me at one point. And there is nothing you can really do. 

Whatever is happening with him you cannot fix it. The very best thing you can do is to start working on yourself.
And when you feel like inviting him to work with you, you can and do it with no expectations. If he says no, let it go. We all have our own path. 
But always do it with love. 
Do not do it when you are frustrated or upset. 

After 24 years many patterns have been built and many assumptions have been set. What you need to do is find the unhealthy ones that have been built into you and start removing them.
This is a process. 

When you are working on yourself for yourself he will see the changes. He might want to come along for the ride or he might not. 
When you become totally healthy you will love him no matter what he does. 

We often look at outside circumstances and people as controlling our lives but this is a lie. Our life is what we decide it to be, whether consciously or unconsciously.

He is probably truly trying to figure out something and as guys do, we often feel we need to do this on our own. 
The truth is he needs other men that have gone through similar situations and have consciously worked through the issues. You can always suggest this but maybe it would be better coming from someone else. 

What he is doing is running the same problem through the same program and adding different scenarios and getting the same conflicting answers.
The issue is not the issue, it is his programming. If you run data through a faulty computer program you will never get the right answers.

We are programmed by society and as we grow up those programs are embedded in our subconscious mind. Unless we become consciously aware of these programs then we will never be able to change. So the growth for almost all of us is in reprogramming ourselves.

Let me know if I can help.

Great Journeys!

So working on yourself is your best bet. If you truly do the work, whatever happens, you will be at peace with it.


----------



## aine

ScottL said:


> Hey, I know this guy. Kind of. It was me at one point. And there is nothing you can really do.
> 
> Whatever is happening with him you cannot fix it. The very best thing you can do is to start working on yourself.
> And when you feel like inviting him to work with you, you can and do it with no expectations. If he says no, let it go. We all have our own path.
> But always do it with love.
> Do not do it when you are frustrated or upset.
> 
> After 24 years many patterns have been built and many assumptions have been set. What you need to do is find the unhealthy ones that have been built into you and start removing them.
> This is a process.
> 
> When you are working on yourself for yourself he will see the changes. He might want to come along for the ride or he might not.
> When you become totally healthy you will love him no matter what he does.
> 
> We often look at outside circumstances and people as controlling our lives but this is a lie. Our life is what we decide it to be, whether consciously or unconsciously.
> 
> He is probably truly trying to figure out something and as guys do, we often feel we need to do this on our own.
> The truth is he needs other men that have gone through similar situations and have consciously worked through the issues. You can always suggest this but maybe it would be better coming from someone else.
> 
> What he is doing is running the same problem through the same program and adding different scenarios and getting the same conflicting answers.
> The issue is not the issue, it is his programming. If you run data through a faulty computer program you will never get the right answers.
> 
> We are programmed by society and as we grow up those programs are embedded in our subconscious mind. Unless we become consciously aware of these programs then we will never be able to change. So the growth for almost all of us is in reprogramming ourselves.
> 
> Let me know if I can help.
> 
> Great Journeys!
> 
> So working on yourself is your best bet. If you truly do the work, whatever happens, you will be at peace with it.


He has been married almost a quarter of a century to the OP who has had his babies, supported his business, etc. The least he could do is tell her what is going on. He could at least say "honey, I have alot of things in my mind which I need to sort out, it is nothing to do with you nor the marriage, etc. What he is doing is burying his head, treating her cruelly (there is no other word for it) and regardless of his 'male computer' a decent human being would be more forthcoming than this. She should work on herself, build up her self esteem for sure, then hand him divorce papers. A man who doesn't have common decency to explain to his partner what is happening shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt at all. He has no right to treat her as a door mat and assume she will be available when he sorts out his ****. That is selfish and self-centred and not something anyone should do to their spouse. I think he wants the time but is pushing his wife towards pulling the plug if he continues to make her life miserable. Alternatively, he is in the middle of an affair and is weighing his options.


----------



## m.t.t

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I am listening to two podcasts by Dr Lee Baucom


I found 'emotional baggage reclaim' by Nat Lue was really helpful for me as well. But her earlier podcasts are better if you are interested in another one.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> Well THAT was pretty harsh ....


Actually, I took it as progress because he said, "right now"
Also the tone it was delivered in and the look on his face, they were not harsh


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Did he travel as much back then as he does now? Did he have a plan as to who would care for the office at home, your son, and your mom (if applicable)?


Yes, he's always travelled a lot for work.
The difference is that the last 3-4 years, he was reaching out to new friends upon the way, staying with friends, asking me to join in etc. He's not even reaching out to friends right now (so it's not just me, he's struggling across the board with all relationships) 
Also, in his mind, I'm pretty sure, he thought Mom (in a home/facility) and the kids (all late teens or older) would be just fine on their own (and they most likely would have been) 
Also, with the office, my role changed in the last 1.5 years, prior to that, I was less of a supervisor, but we had a seasoned key player leave, and I have had to step in and step up.


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Actually, I took it as progress because he said, "right now"
> Also the tone it was delivered in and the look on his face, they were not harsh


I apologize for my incorrect assessment. From what I read, without the ability to hear his tone of voice or see his demeanor, it sounded harsh. You mentioned this is his busiest time of year, so his response makes sense. 

Do you think when the busy season is over he might be more agreeable to discuss your concerns? Thus far, he has been unwilling to tell you what is wrong. I keep wondering if he wants to be awful enough that you finally decide to leave. Some people do that because it expunges them from feeling like the bad guy. I could be completely wrong. But he has been disrespectful to you for awhile.


----------



## Beach123

Who was the seasoned employee that left? Was your husband close to the person who exited?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> I apologize for my incorrect assessment. From what I read, without the ability to hear his tone of voice or see his demeanor, it sounded harsh. You mentioned this is his busiest time of year, so his response makes sense.
> 
> Do you think when the busy season is over he might be more agreeable to discuss your concerns? Thus far, he has been unwilling to tell you what is wrong. I keep wondering if he wants to be awful enough that you finally decide to leave. Some people do that because it expunges them from feeling like the bad guy. I could be completely wrong. But he has been disrespectful to you for awhile.


I have thought of this very thing, that maybe he was hoping I would reach my limit and make the decision and he'd be "off the hook." Perhaps not intentionally, or perhaps. Recently, while he is still distant and checked out, there are moments where he seems to go out of his way to be civil, and occasionally considerate. So to me that feels like he's somewhat at war with himself a bit.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Who was the seasoned employee that left? Was your husband close to the person who exited?


The seasoned employee was his sister, and we spent time with her socially as well as at work. She is probably the sibling he's the closest to, but she's moved pretty far away and I chat with her more then he ever did. 
Why do you ask?


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

So a quick update: He had jobs lined up for a week out of town, one of them had to be done on a Sunday due to it being a place that sees patients and Sunday was the only day closed to patients. Then, as he was wrapping things up to head back here, one of our employees wound up in the hospital, so now he's trying to cover for him on a few more jobs before heading back here for our weekend of babysitting the grandkids. Our Anniversary was Monday, and I had sent him a low key care package with some snacks and drinks and tums. LOL...and his first reaction was that he thought we weren't exchanging gifts and I told him that wasn't the point, the point was that I wanted to show him how much I appreciate all his hard work. The next day, our actual anniversary, he sent an edible arrangement to the office big enough for me to share with the others. When I thanked him and told him how big it was and that I was going to have to share it, he said he figured he better send one big enough for me to share...so he was thoughtful enough to make that decision. 

I'll take it.

No it's nothing earth shattering, but he could have chosen a lot of responses that would have been hurtful and he didn't.

Seeing as how we've been pretty crappy to each other all year on the gifts and occasions, this one has been a step in a better direction. I got him a birthday present this year but no card or wrapping or pomp. He got me nothing for my birthday, nothing for Mother's Day, and I got him nothing for Father's Day.

Yesterday his doctor's office left a message on my phone that his recent test results looked fine, "it" was stable and follow up in another year. (this is something in his chest and goes back to him staying on top of his health due to possible chemical exposure over the years) #1. He was not happy that they left the voicemail on my phone and of course I couldn't help but point out that he did ask me to make the appointment in the first place. (a little snark on my end, but hey, what do you expect?) #2. I had wondered if something was going on with him healthwise that was contributing to his crisis. So perhaps/perhaps not. I'm waiting to have that conversation in person.

I've continued to listen to podcasts, exercise, wear mascara, journal daily, meet up with my friends, spend time with my youngest (she's a junior in college) and work work work.


----------



## Prodigal

It sounds like he's going through the motions, nothing more. I'm wondering how you are able to tolerate this. I lived through something similar. When I decided the pain of staying exceeded the pain of leaving, I left.

Don't you see that no matter how much you work on yourself, your husband doesn't seem to care? Implementing the 180 is a good thing, but it really sounds like you have a rather unfulfilled life. Sadly, it sounds like he could stay this way for a very long time.

Sad.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> It sounds like he's going through the motions, nothing more. I'm wondering how you are able to tolerate this. I lived through something similar. When I decided the pain of staying exceeded the pain of leaving, I left.
> 
> Don't you see that no matter how much you work on yourself, your husband doesn't seem to care? Implementing the 180 is a good thing, but it really sounds like you have a rather unfulfilled life. Sadly, it sounds like he could stay this way for a very long time.
> 
> Sad.


How long did you go through something similar?


----------



## lucy999

I'd be hopping mad if my doctor's office left that detailed message on my husband's phone. Isn't that a HIPPA violation, unless your husband agreed in writing to release info to you? Maybe he did and forgot.

I do applaud you for continuing to work on yourself. Because if husband doesn't get on board and you get to the point of finally having enough, you'll be in that much of a better place.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Man, good luck to all.

How did this get to 528 posts. Wow!!


----------



## Divinely Favored

lucy999 said:


> I'd be hopping mad if my doctor's office left that detailed message on my husband's phone. Isn't that a HIPPA violation, unless your husband agreed in writing to release info to you? Maybe he did and forgot.
> 
> I do applaud you for continuing to work on yourself. Because if husband doesn't get on board and you get to the point of finally having enough, you'll be in that much of a better place.


I imagine he has her listed as spousecand alternate emergency contact. When you fill out papers at Dr. you usually have a spouse listed in a release. If something has changed it is your responsibility to go to them and change it.

All this HIPPA BS burns me up. Someone can be in danger of being given a disease and you cant tell them anything. I know of guys with diseases that are sleeping around with girls and i cant say a thing to them. The girls get to find out when they need a liver transplant. Same for a cheating spouse catxhing a disease and you can not tell the other spouse. It is just wrong. But that is today....someones feelings are more important than anothers health/life.


----------



## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> How long did you go through something similar?


From the time he went off the deep end - lost his job due to drinking - until the time I left, was approximately two months. I used that time to pack, get a moving crew to load a U-Haul truck for me, and make arrangements with family to move in with them temporarily.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Divinely Favored said:


> I imagine he has her listed as spousecand alternate emergency contact. When you fill out papers at Dr. you usually have a spouse listed in a release. If something has changed it is your responsibility to go to them and change it.
> 
> All this HIPPA BS burns me up. Someone can be in danger of being given a disease and you cant tell them anything. I know of guys with diseases that are sleeping around with girls and i cant say a thing to them. The girls get to find out when they need a liver transplant. Same for a cheating spouse catxhing a disease and you can not tell the other spouse. It is just wrong. But that is today....someones feelings are more important than anothers health/life.


Yeah, and this is where some laws go too far.


----------



## lucy999

Divinely Favored said:


> I imagine he has her listed as spousecand alternate emergency contact. When you fill out papers at Dr. you usually have a spouse listed in a release. If something has changed it is your responsibility to go to them and change it.
> 
> All this HIPPA BS burns me up. Someone can be in danger of being given a disease and you cant tell them anything. I know of guys with diseases that are sleeping around with girls and i cant say a thing to them. The girls get to find out when they need a liver transplant. Same for a cheating spouse catxhing a disease and you can not tell the other spouse. It is just wrong. But that is today....someones feelings are more important than anothers health/life.


I recently went to the doctor. They do have you fill out all kinds of papers. For this visit (well woman gyno visit), they had an emergency contact and another separate form for release of info. I got the distinct impression they were not one and the same. But I could be totally wrong! You really have to be alert and on your game and actually read what you're signing and pay attention. I feel bad for those who just go through the motions and sign, not seemingly knowing what they're signing. Myself included lol.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> I'd be hopping mad if my doctor's office left that detailed message on my husband's phone. Isn't that a HIPPA violation, unless your husband agreed in writing to release info to you? Maybe he did and forgot.
> 
> I do applaud you for continuing to work on yourself. Because if husband doesn't get on board and you get to the point of finally having enough, you'll be in that much of a better place.


That was my thought as well, if nothing else, I'm going to come out of all of this in a better place, more self aware, with fewer bad habits, more good habits, a strong sense of who I am and how I want to be.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Man, good luck to all.
> 
> How did this get to 528 posts. Wow!!


Because I "talk" a lot and these fine TAM people keep giving me input and advice, for which I am very grateful.


----------



## ScottL

aine said:


> He has been married almost a quarter of a century to the OP who has had his babies, supported his business, etc. The least he could do is tell her what is going on. He could at least say "honey, I have alot of things in my mind which I need to sort out, it is nothing to do with you nor the marriage, etc. What he is doing is burying his head, treating her cruelly (there is no other word for it) and regardless of his 'male computer' a decent human being would be more forthcoming than this. She should work on herself, build up her self esteem for sure, then hand him divorce papers. A man who doesn't have common decency to explain to his partner what is happening shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt at all. He has no right to treat her as a door mat and assume she will be available when he sorts out his ****. That is selfish and self-centred and not something anyone should do to their spouse. I think he wants the time but is pushing his wife towards pulling the plug if he continues to make her life miserable. Alternatively, he is in the middle of an affair and is weighing his options.


You are thinking that he even has the option of doing this. You are judging because you have been programmed to judge. No one needs to be treated like a doormat but sometimes they need that to move to a higher identity. She has the choice to do what she wants but if she works on herself, she will never be a doormat.


----------



## Beach123

You aren’t miserable enough to change anything. Coupled with fear of leaving him = you’ll never change a thing.

all that “reading” to improve yourself... it’s just reading with no action to actually implement change... which amounts to doing nothing.


----------



## aine

ScottL said:


> *You are thinking that he even has the option of doing this.* You are judging because you have been programmed to judge. No one needs to be treated like a doormat but sometimes they need that to move to a higher identity. She has the choice to do what she wants but if she works on herself, she will never be a doormat.


What are you writing exactly, nothing you have written makes sense! Why would be not have an option, you are also assuming here. He has a mouth, unfortunately he doesn't have the decency to be honest to a woman he has spent a quarter of a century with. I don't hear of anyone holding a gun to his head. He is CHOOSING not to be transparent.


----------



## Prodigal

I think this all boils down to commitment: commitment to the marriage, to each other, to oneself, and to the truth. Thus far, only the OP has made a commitment to save the marriage and to work on herself. All well and good. But then there's the truth and the marriage. Seems there are gaping holes in both. Not that the OP isn't trying to shore up her sagging marriage and give her secretive husband a chance to come clean.

Hubs isn't focused on commitment. I think that's what I find most troubling. It's his busy season. He doesn't want to share what is bothering him. Commitment is missing. When it comes down to it, I believe the OP will need to decide how long she can and will tolerate her husband making a half-assed attempt at his marriage. 

I can only speak from my own experience. When commitment to the bigger thing; namely, our marriage, went out the door I decided to leave. And I didn't want to wait around to give my husband the luxury of twiddling his selfish little thumbs while he decided what he wanted more: booze or me. I didn't divorce my husband, but I put lots of distance between us and I got on with my life.

Something to consider ...


----------



## GirlBetrayed

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Recently husband is distant, can't engage him in a conversation, is irritable and responds with one or two words or simply doesn't respond to me. No longer is interested in being intimate, hasn't initiated any type of physical connection (not even a side hug) in almost two full months, probably longer. He does a lot of his own scheduling and finds a reason to travel more days during the week for work.
> AlmostEmptyNester


My husband had a deep physical and emotional affair that lasted 5 months. The first indicator was his sudden unexplained snapping at me with no cause and it almost felt like he was nitpicking in order to fight with me so that he could avoid being with me on the weekends. The second indicator as a sudden disinterest in being intimate. When I tried to initiate, he would tell me he was tired, particularly on Saturday nights when he had worked all day. The third indicatior, was this sudden Saturday work schedule. He never worked Saturdays before, but suddenly started working all day, which left only Sunday to be with me and the kids and Also run his errands so we got very little quality time together. He always seemed stressed and detached when we did family things. Fourth indicator: turning off his location. Before he realized it was even on, I’d check to see if he was on his way home so I could have dinner warm and he’d be in a random parking lot near work, but I didn’t think anything of it because the GPS is always very inaccurate. It wasn’t until I found an email from him to his mistress by accident that it all came to fruition. Snapping at me because he was mad he had to be with me instead of her. Disinterest in sex because he was sleeping with her and didn’t want to sleep with me on the same day. (So noble, right?) The parking lot was him having sex in her truck. Also, working Saturdays was a ruse. That was breakfast and hotel with the mistress, then a fun outing while I was home with the kids. Then back to the hotel for more. By the time he got home he was “too tired” to hang out with our friends or do anything social. Right in the shower and in front of the TV.

My take is that these are all big old red flags. The only suggestion, as a person who was betrayed for months because I was too in denial to accept the signs, is to find out the truth. Get in to his phone to check to see if he has shady apps like What’s app, or Snapchat. Check deleted or drafts of emails. Put key works in the text message search like love, baby, can’t wait... She may be under a guy’s name to disguise.
Get into your cell records. Verizon has calls and texts for each month up to 18 months. Rent a car and follow him. Check your bank accounts to see if money has been withdrawn. Look at credit card statements. And think about what you will do if in fact, you do find him unfaithful. I hope I’m wrong but the red flags here are just screaming affair.
I’m truly sorry and I wish you the best.


----------



## aine

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Man, good luck to all.
> 
> How did this get to 528 posts. Wow!!


with no progress either 🙄


----------



## turnera

Forgive me for not reading all 500 posts, but did you have him followed to see if he is cheating?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> You aren’t miserable enough to change anything. Coupled with fear of leaving him = you’ll never change a thing.
> 
> all that “reading” to improve yourself... it’s just reading with no action to actually implement change... which amounts to doing nothing.


OK then, describe your actions to improve yourself, when you want to get rid of a bad habit or develop better habits?


I'm making changes, I have a written plan, I set daily goals - I write them down, and then review each day how I did towards making those changes. Then I adjust if I'm not being successful.
Maybe the problem is I'm not describing it properly, but I am actively working each day towards change. The reading and listening to podcasts is merely one aspect of my plan. And for damn sure, that is action. Inaction would be doing nothing, not reading, not researching, not studying, not setting daily goals.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> with no progress either 🙄


 I started out lost and messy, and have chosen a plan of action for myself and I am implementing that. I see that as progress. Not that I don't have moments where I hit low points, but I am in a much better head space overall. I am making progress on the things I can control and the things I am willing to do. Just because I'm not willing to snoop or hand out ultimatums does not mean there is no progress.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

turnera said:


> Forgive me for not reading all 500 posts, but did you have him followed to see if he is cheating?


No I have not, I have decided not to go that route.


----------



## Anastasia6

I think you are doing fine. You don't have to make any drastic changes in 4 months after being married so long. Take it as you feel comfortable. You know that this might not last and that's ok.

Do I think there is a chance of someone else at least in his head. Yes. Men tend to make these actions based on another woman. But not always. You can find plenty of threads here that men have decided they've had enough without another woman. I feel like reading your thread like I feel for many things on this site. You just put your priorities in a different spot than his love language. I see it hear with both sexes. Men and women thinking their marriage is fine and that they are a good spouse then bam it blows up because what they thought was good was not their partners desires. Now I'm not saying you haven't been a great wife and business partner. Just because he feels this way doesn't mean you should have done something different and the past is the past. I do think it is sad that he built you a traveling office in hopes of spending time with you and you two didn't do that some. I understand about your son and mother. But that was a cry for connectedness and the road can be very lonely. Just like being at home and taking care of EVERYTHING can be overwhelming and under appreciated.

Keep your eyes open. Keep planning financially and business wise as if it is coming to an end to protect yourself. But don't give up until you are ready to give up.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> I think you are doing fine. You don't have to make any drastic changes in 4 months after being married so long. Take it as you feel comfortable. You know that this might not last and that's ok.
> 
> Do I think there is a chance of someone else at least in his head. Yes. Men tend to make these actions based on another woman. But not always. You can find plenty of threads here that men have decided they've had enough without another woman. I feel like reading your thread like I feel for many things on this site. You just put your priorities in a different spot than his love language. I see it hear with both sexes. Men and women thinking their marriage is fine and that they are a good spouse then bam it blows up because what they thought was good was not their partners desires. Now I'm not saying you haven't been a great wife and business partner. Just because he feels this way doesn't mean you should have done something different and the past is the past. I do think it is sad that he built you a traveling office in hopes of spending time with you and you two didn't do that some. I understand about your son and mother. But that was a cry for connectedness and the road can be very lonely. Just like being at home and taking care of EVERYTHING can be overwhelming and under appreciated.
> 
> Keep your eyes open. Keep planning financially and business wise as if it is coming to an end to protect yourself. But don't give up until you are ready to give up.


Thank you. 
Yesterday we had a few quiet moments and I asked him what he was hiding from me. He was surprised and I stayed quiet to see if he would fill in the space, but he didn't and I had to clarify. I told him, he turned off location sharing, wouldn't tell me about his health tests, stopped communicating early every evening. His answers were very interesting. For the first time, he actually blamed part of his crisis on the crazy year 2020. (Not that I don't have things to fix like the love languages.) He said he just felt sort of smothered -- which I find really really odd, because I don't do smothering, but I wasn't about to argue with him on that. I then asked him what he does every evening, is he busy having an emotional affair with someone on the internet. He said, you see me, I go straight to bed, I'm not having chats with anyone. I then reminded him that he's hardly ever home, I meant on the nights he's out of town...and it's like a lightbulb literally went on. I could see it in his expression. ALL this time, he's not really thought about how his actions appear to me until yesterday...he's been so wrapped up in his own head.


----------



## ABHale

Wow!!!

So it finally hit him like a knockout bunch that it looks like he is cheating from your point of view.

The smothering feeling is from everything in life at the moment, I don’t think it is you that he meant. I can feel like this at times, everything becomes so overwhelming it feels like you can’t breathe.

So glad the two of you had a little progress this weekend.


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## thefam

Glad to see you making progress! Unlike most on this thread, from what you have shared I see a marriage worth saving.


----------



## Beach123

That’s good you are laying out the evidence for him! Glad he could see how it’s affecting you.

hopefully this week brings some changes in the relationship that give you more peace of mind.


----------



## aine

I really hope he really hasn't been thinking of how it appears to you and it really is him all in his head. Having said that, you have asked him before, right? This is not the first time? He sounds self centered.

*OR* he realizes his surreptitious behavior has not gone unnoticed and you have now put him on notice (hence the surprise). Most of us would say there are many many red flags here.
Why would anyone who has nothing to hide turn off their location sharing? That itself is a red flag? I am not buying the 'smothering' either. Everyone is coping with the Covid crisis, he is not the only one. Maybe it was a health scare?


----------



## Blondilocks

The guy is wearing his Mae West (over your best dress) and heading for the lifeboat while you're still rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

How long do you intend to play "cat got your tongue"? For your sanity, put a time limit on it.


----------



## azimuth

Blondilocks said:


> The guy is wearing his Mae West (over your best dress) and heading for the lifeboat while you're still rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
> 
> How long do you intend to play "cat got your tongue"? For your sanity, put a time limit on it.



I have a feeling she's more than willing to go down with the ship. It's really hard to watch.


----------



## ScottL

aine said:


> What are you writing exactly, nothing you have written makes sense! Why would be not have an option, you are also assuming here. He has a mouth, unfortunately he doesn't have the decency to be honest to a woman he has spent a quarter of a century with. I don't hear of anyone holding a gun to his head. He is CHOOSING not to be transparent.


What I am saying may not click with most people. It took me a bit of work to understand it. Most people can't really comprehend unconditional love. It does not have conditions on it, that means no expectations. So, what do you need to do if someone is not fulfilling your needs? Like being open and honest? Maybe, You have honest heartfelt conversations with them and let them know what you will accept and not accept and find out what they will accept and not accept and come to an agreement. When one does not live up to the agreement then you may want to do something different. There are consequences but they are not done out of anger or resentment. It takes a lot of work to get to this point but it is worth the trip. Great Journeys.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

ScottL said:


> What I am saying may not click with most people. It took me a bit of work to understand it. Most people can't really comprehend unconditional love. It does not have conditions on it, that means no expectations. So, what do you need to do if someone is not fulfilling your needs? Like being open and honest? Maybe, You have honest heartfelt conversations with them and let them know what you will accept and not accept and find out what they will accept and not accept and come to an agreement. When one does not live up to the agreement then you may want to do something different. There are consequences but they are not done out of anger or resentment. It takes a lot of work to get to this point but it is worth the trip. Great Journeys.


Unconditional love has no place in marriage or any other romantic relationship. There have to be expectations! There NEEDS to be a limit or we face tolerating the intolerable, like abuse and infidelity for example. Sorry I just don’t buy into that crap. 

How exactly do you have an honest conversation with someone who is being dishonest? You can tell your side, express your feelings, but there can be no honest conversation when someone is being deceptive. 

And if someone doesn’t hold up their side of of your agreement, you think you just change up the agreement?? You must be a total doormat. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> That’s good you are laying out the evidence for him! Glad he could see how it’s affecting you.
> 
> hopefully this week brings some changes in the relationship that give you more peace of mind.


It was so weird to me, I've asked him in multiple ways and multiple times the very same thing (at least in my mind) and it's like he never made any connection. Or he refused to make connections, but for whatever reason, the other day he finally HEARD me. 

I was listening to a podcast about midlife crises and it sounds a lot like what's going on for him. People seek answers outside of themselves, not realizing the answers are within. Symptoms include "I'm not happy." "I want something more" he literally said almost verbatim those to me several months ago when I finally got him to talk to me. However, he's the one who's going to have to realize the answers are within, not external. So, he might figure it out or he might not, and if he doesn't figure it out, he's just going to take the crisis/issues with him to the next relationship if there is one.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

aine said:


> I really hope he really hasn't been thinking of how it appears to you and it really is him all in his head. Having said that, you have asked him before, right? This is not the first time? He sounds self centered.
> 
> *OR* he realizes his surreptitious behavior has not gone unnoticed and you have now put him on notice (hence the surprise). Most of us would say there are many many red flags here.
> Why would anyone who has nothing to hide turn off their location sharing? That itself is a red flag? I am not buying the 'smothering' either. Everyone is coping with the Covid crisis, he is not the only one. Maybe it was a health scare?


He is totally wrapped up in himself right now, self-centered works, but it's not his usual MO. I view it as a protective measure on his part... if he is really honest with himself about his issues, he will literally fall to pieces and he's doing all he can to just hold it together. I think that's why it showed up as irritation and anger in the beginning, those are so much easier to deal with vs. hurt, pain, fear, disappointment. I'm not saying I've dished all these awful things out to him, I'm saying he's having a crisis and has chosen this path as his "solution" and created an inner dialogue to fit his solution...but I'm not playing along like his script reads.

I don't disagree with you, the red flags are all over the place. He did have a health scare, and luckily whatever it was, it's not an issue and follow up in a year, but I'm sure that has contributed to his unhappiness or feeling overwhelmed, or smothered. He had trouble picking the right word, and I threw smothered out there and he agreed.

So there was a chip in his wall Saturday when we had our short talk, and then the next day he spent time grilling and organizing some bins and listening to his music, and then the next day he seemed depressed and lost...and then he went out of town again for work. Completely different states and cities vs the last several weeks, and only getting hotel rooms at the last minute depending on if he gets things accomplished or not. (that's why I think the idea of a physical affair just doesn't work logistically, it's not impossible, but the other person would have to have a lot of freedom to just up and go willy nilly)


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Blondilocks said:


> The guy is wearing his Mae West (over your best dress) and heading for the lifeboat while you're still rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
> 
> How long do you intend to play "cat got your tongue"? For your sanity, put a time limit on it.


I like your poetry.
The thing is, at least right now, I'm feeling much stronger. I'm not going down...the marriage might go down, and it won't be because I didn't try, but I'll be OK, in fact, I'll be better eventually because I'm taking the time to gain clarity and insight and work on myself. So no matter what happens, on the other side, I will be a lot healthier.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt like a MoFo....but then it already has and yet here I am bouncing back with a plan, enjoying my friendships, enjoying my kids and grandkids, experiencing personal growth, being a badass in the office etc.


----------



## lucy999

Do you think he's just plain sick and tired of working? How old is he? If you told us, I forgot. His job sounds so physically taxing. The fact that he seemed chipper-ish on Saturday, then depressed when he had to go back to work sounds like he's tired of working. And who can blame him, really?


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## nextbigadv

lucy999 said:


> Do you think he's just plain sick and tired of working? How old is he? If you told us, I forgot. His job sounds so physically taxing. The fact that he seemed chipper-ish on Saturday, then depressed when he had to go back to work sounds like he's tired of working. And who can blame him, really?


This is so true, I spent 20+ years on the road, Iv'e been home now since March. My wife tells me it's actually nice to be around me on a Sunday. Apparently by Sunday I was getting angry knowing I was headed to the airport to be gone again. I never really noticed it just felt normal to me, but I was always mindful of her needs since I was the one going off and leaving her to pick up the slack on the home front.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

lucy999 said:


> Do you think he's just plain sick and tired of working? How old is he? If you told us, I forgot. His job sounds so physically taxing. The fact that he seemed chipper-ish on Saturday, then depressed when he had to go back to work sounds like he's tired of working. And who can blame him, really?


His work is physically and mentally exhausting because he manages a dozen guys out in the field and has to supervise them across several states, and normally I would say yes, he's really TIRED of it. But oddly enough, right now, it's the only thing he wants to focus on, it's grounding him somewhat. He's actually really smart. He's a deep thinker. He's a hard worker and great provider. He's one of those people who can read a manual cover to cover and not fall asleep, and then he can do the _thing_ explained in the manual. He's resourceful and creative and artistic. He's got a lot of great qualities....

Anyway he's 55 this year.


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## turnera

Great time to try a new career.


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## Casual Observer

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you.
> Yesterday we had a few quiet moments and I asked him what he was hiding from me. He was surprised and I stayed quiet to see if he would fill in the space, but he didn't and I had to clarify. I told him, he turned off location sharing, wouldn't tell me about his health tests, stopped communicating early every evening. His answers were very interesting. For the first time, he actually blamed part of his crisis on the crazy year 2020. (Not that I don't have things to fix like the love languages.) He said he just felt sort of smothered -- which I find really really odd, because I don't do smothering, but I wasn't about to argue with him on that. I then asked him what he does every evening, is he busy having an emotional affair with someone on the internet. He said, you see me, I go straight to bed, I'm not having chats with anyone. I then reminded him that he's hardly ever home, I meant on the nights he's out of town...and it's like a lightbulb literally went on. I could see it in his expression. ALL this time, he's not really thought about how his actions appear to me until yesterday...he's been so wrapped up in his own head.


You might add that you thought marriage meant traveling through life together with someone, taking on their hopes & fears and allowing them to lean on you from time to time, and you to lean on them. That 2020 has been really tough for him, and you're here for that. That it's not a bother to shoulder some of his burden, but something that would make you feel better, and maybe him too.


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## aine

ScottL said:


> What I am saying may not click with most people. It took me a bit of work to understand it. Most people can't really comprehend unconditional love. It does not have conditions on it, that means no expectations. So, what do you need to do if someone is not fulfilling your needs? Like being open and honest? Maybe, You have honest heartfelt conversations with them and let them know what you will accept and not accept and find out what they will accept and not accept and come to an agreement. When one does not live up to the agreement then you may want to do something different. There are consequences but they are not done out of anger or resentment. It takes a lot of work to get to this point but it is worth the trip. Great Journeys.


I don’t agree. This only works if both persons try to be the best person they can be. What about alcoholic abusers, drug abusers, cheaters, you are saying that they should be loved unconditionally and the offended spouse continue to be a door mat? This is terrible advice!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Quick update - this weekend I felt a shift. Just a small shift, and maybe it was all me, but things were just more relaxed and organic. We actually ran errands together AND went out to lunch just the two of us. We haven't done that since maybe March? All our other outings since then have been with others. He also SMILED at me and we laughed a time or two. This has been so very rare. We shall see if it was just a random thing or a potential crack in his armor.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

A little anxious to see how this weekend goes. He's on his way home AND he agreed to go out on a double dinner date with a friend and her new man Saturday. A couple of the guys he worked with this week talked to me today and said he was really quiet and sort of grumpy, they were concerned about him. (I did not ask, they mentioned it while we were discussing other work related things) I'll try to keep y'all posted. Most likely it will just be the same old stuff, but regardless, I'm feeling really good. I had a good week at work, training my new office person, she's working out pretty good so far, and all things considered, I feel pretty strong. I saw my therapist yesterday.
I mentioned to her that earlier this week I had to deal with my husband being grumpy and cranky on the phone several times one day, however I kept my cool and did not react with emotion or irritation. I just stayed steady and focused on how to solve any problems we could solve moving forward. (all of this was work related)
She told me that was great, that staying calm when someone else was not was actually a position of control and power. I don't know about all that, but I know that I was very happy with myself for not falling in to old patterns and for maintaining my composure. Go me! LOL


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## Anastasia6

Good for you!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Another weekend of feeling that tiny shift. Nothing earth shattering, but the double dinner date was good and we spent some time just vegging and watching tv. I still ran my errands and went on my walks and feel like things didn't really progress but they didn't back track either.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Not much new to report. Husband was headed out the door for work and I mentioned something about this evening and he said he wouldn't be home, he was headed out mid day to work out of town most of the week. (I know where he's headed, just didn't know he was leaving today.) Since it took me by surprise, I didn't hide my reaction and told him I was disappointed, thought he would be home one more night, and he said he just didn't feel like getting up at 3am to get on the road and I told him I understood. He said he would be home Friday though (he usually doesn't get back till Saturday). What surprised me was his attitude, he actually seemed TO CARE that I was disappointed. I'm trying to remember the last time he seemed to care about my feelings, and honestly I'm not sure I can even remember.


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## Casual Observer

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Not much new to report. Husband was headed out the door for work and I mentioned something about this evening and he said he wouldn't be home, he was headed out mid day to work out of town most of the week. (I know where he's headed, just didn't know he was leaving today.) Since it took me by surprise, I didn't hide my reaction and told him I was disappointed, thought he would be home one more night, and he said he just didn't feel like getting up at 3am to get on the road and I told him I understood. He said he would be home Friday though (he usually doesn't get back till Saturday). What surprised me was his attitude, he actually seemed TO CARE that I was disappointed. I'm trying to remember the last time he seemed to care about my feelings, and honestly I'm not sure I can even remember.


So you've been running this thread for 3 months now. If you look at your original post, how do you think things have played out, so far? What's been different than your expectations? What's been better, what's been worse?

How would you rate his level of caring over this past 3 months? Zero at the start... has it been very gradually improving over time, or does it seem not much different than the start? 

I hope things can work out for you, because it's really clear you haven't given up, you want things to work you, you love this guy. It wouldn't be so hard for you if you didn't. I know that feeling all too well.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Casual Observer said:


> So you've been running this thread for 3 months now. If you look at your original post, how do you think things have played out, so far? What's been different than your expectations? What's been better, what's been worse?
> 
> How would you rate his level of caring over this past 3 months? Zero at the start... has it been very gradually improving over time, or does it seem not much different than the start?
> 
> I hope things can work out for you, because it's really clear you haven't given up, you want things to work you, you love this guy. It wouldn't be so hard for you if you didn't. I know that feeling all too well.


Thank you for asking. I apologize, I wrote a book here. LOL 
Care to share more about your experience?

How things have played out: At first I was a mess, confused, hurt, baffled, fearful etc. I spent a good month to month and half as a total mess. In fact, I was still a hot mess in early August. I couldn't eat, had trouble sleeping, the weight fell off at an alarming rate. I was going to try the 180 and perhaps some other things, and then I finally found a podcast that seemed to make the most sense for where I was and wanted to be and it's helped me separate some of the emotion from my goals and develop a plan. I also started seeing a therapist. Even with all of this, I still get caught up in my fears and hurt, I still take things personally only to find out later I was way off base. I still find myself going down certain rabbit holes of reacting, and later realize I am reacting to cycles and patterns from the past.

I figured out a few things. 1. I wasn't giving up on the relationship or marriage without some good solid effort. 2. I can only control myself, despite the attraction of handing out ultimatums or making demands, if they went sideways it would work against my goals of working on the marriage. 3. I had to be honest about how I might have contributed to the crisis and find ways to improve myself (we always have room for improvement and/or growth.) I am not owning the whole crisis as my fault, but there were things I could have made more of a priority, resentments that were misdirected etc.

What I discovered was that I had developed some bad habits over the past several years that I wanted to kick to the curb, and that there are some good habits I'd like to develop. So I have been working on those.

I have also discovered, that even if all my efforts don't save my marriage, I believe I will be OK. In fact, as I continue to work on myself and grow, I start to have thoughts that show I'm letting go of the outcome, which I believe is the healthiest place for me to be. One way or the other, I will be proud of how I handled myself, I will have no regrets that I didn't put my best efforts forward. I might even get to the point where I find myself outgrowing my husband.

I see tiny bits of improvement, little glimmers, but the reality is that we are still a far cry from where we should be, so my expectations are set really high. I don't want to be where we were as a couple, because clearly there were some issues, even if they were quiet and unobtrusive. My goal is to have an even better marriage and partnership. So at some point, even if my husband doesn't realize it, he's going to have to start working on himself and us. He's going to have to find a way through is own crisis and realize the answers are not external (as in me being the cause or solution) 

He originally said he was miserable, he said his feelings have changed, he admitted to thinking about a separation, he wanted to be alone more. He's gotten the "separation" and "alone" part simply through travel for work. When he used to come home, he would be irritable and unkind towards me. That changed to simply him staying busy all day while at home until the evening, and then he would hang out only in the evenings. That has changed to him spending more time with me in the mornings drinking coffee and mid day and in the evenings. He even tries to stay up later and watch shows with me (sleeping on the couch despite his best efforts.)

What hasn't changed: there is still no affection coming from him. ZERO. He hasn't complimented me since???? He hasn't reached for me to hug me or cuddle since??? I asked him the other day to take two seconds and admire my sexy underwear and he said, "I already admired you." (apparently having sex was him admiring me???) I found his answer to be very eye opening. It's like he's thinking things but they aren't leaving his brain, and yet he thinks they have. We have had multiple conversations in which he will say, "I told you that." and I have NO recollection whatsoever, and I'm paying way more attention than I used to.

He does however, appear to be caring about my feelings just a little. This is a recent change. 

Anyway, it gives me hope that one day we might be able to get to where I'd like to be, however, I am learning that I need to work on myself regardless. I need to let go of the outcome in order to be healthy emotionally. 
AND at some point, I might get tired of trying and I might move on, but at least it won't be till I believe I've done all I could do.

My next goal in my personal growth is to either find a new passion/hobby or rekindle one that I have set aside. I literally have no hobbies right now other than exercise, and sometimes that's just to keep me sane. Over the years, I have given them up in order to take care of business, I have given them up thinking that I needed to in order to be responsible. I haven't made the time for them.


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## turnera

Do you have girlfriends that you do things with? Or even just talk to?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

turnera said:


> Do you have girlfriends that you do things with? Or even just talk to?


 Yes I do, in fact almost daily for talking. I feel like I have a very good support system between my friends and family. I try to get together with friends for dinner or walks every week.


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## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> What hasn't changed: there is still no affection coming from him. ZERO. He hasn't complimented me since???? He hasn't reached for me to hug me or cuddle since??? I asked him the other day to take two seconds and admire my sexy underwear and he said, "I already admired you." (apparently having sex was him admiring me???)


I admire your tenacity. I would throw in the towel if there was no affection or words of affirmation. I suppose that's my love language. It has to hurt a great deal when he doesn't even want to give you a hug. Well, keep us posted. I just hope someday soon he'll tell you why he's detached from the marriage.


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## aine

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> already admired you." (apparently having sex was him admiring me???)


I can't help but see that you are doing the 'pick me dance' which is not attractive on any level. Why aren't you implementing the 180?


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## Anastasia6

aine said:


> I can't help but see that you are doing the 'pick me dance' which is not attractive on any level. Why aren't you implementing the 180?


Because she isn't looking to get divorced. The 180 is for detaching. She isn't looking to detach. What she is doing may or may not in the long run bring her the results she wants but she has discussed that she didn't want to do the 180.


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## aine

576 posts and to what end?


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## aine

Anastasia6 said:


> Because she isn't looking to get divorced. The 180 is for detaching. She isn't looking to detach. What she is doing may or may not in the long run bring her the results she wants but she has discussed that she didn't want to do the 180.


Actually if you read anything about the 180 it is for both detaching and divorce busting. The lady who coined the term, Michelle Weiner Davis came up with the 180 as a tool to detach for not only to possibly be emotionally ready to leave a marriage but to also save marriages by not being so needy to a spouse about to walk out the door. The 'pick me' dance does not work. This has been stated on this website so many times, I suggest you do some reading before making one sided statements such as above.


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## She'sStillGotIt

OP, you know what I see that's slowly changed over the 3-month course of this thread?

I've seen you LOWER your expectations again and again and again. Swooning because he _smiled_ at you????? You don't even see how *low* you've set the bar in order to think your marriage is getting better, and it's just so sad.

Aine is right on the money. You're doing the "Pick Me!!" Dance every single hour of every single day, looking for hidden meaning in every single movement he makes and even *more* sadly, thinking these terribly minor, minimal things are some kind of sign that things are getting better.

You're basically taking the paltry crumbs he occasionally throws your way and desperately trying to make a 7-course meal out of them. Self-delusion makes you feel better, but honestly? It just sets you up for an even BIGGER fall when you refuse to see reality until it smacks you full in the face. Then, it's debilitating.

Take off the blinders.


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## Anastasia6

aine said:


> Actually if you read anything about the 180 it is for both detaching and divorce busting. The lady who coined the term, Michelle Weiner Davis came up with the 180 as a tool to detach for not only to possibly be emotionally ready to leave a marriage but to also save marriages by not being so needy to a spouse about to walk out the door. The 'pick me' dance does not work. This has been stated on this website so many times, I suggest you do some reading before making one sided statements such as above.


Well I just don't see it. She has her own space, she is doing healthy things, she is not running everything for him except in the business which is also hers. She doesn't look needy to me.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> I admire your tenacity. I would throw in the towel if there was no affection or words of affirmation. I suppose that's my love language. It has to hurt a great deal when he doesn't even want to give you a hug. Well, keep us posted. I just hope someday soon he'll tell you why he's detached from the marriage.


Thank you. I am a hard worker if nothing else, so I suppose that is serving me well right now. 

My therapist said that based on several things I have said, it sounds like he is going through a depressive episode (because he's withdrawn from friends, hobbies, interests, and not just me) and she said it's not a real diagnosis since she hasn't talked directly with him, but if that is the case, a lot of depression/depressive episodes start to work themselves out after about 8 months or a year without therapy or help.


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## Anastasia6

Does your therapist think you are doing the right thing or does she advise you to do the 180 or detach or do something differently?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

She'sStillGotIt said:


> OP, you know what I see that's slowly changed over the 3-month course of this thread?
> 
> I've seen you LOWER your expectations again and again and again. Swooning because he _smiled_ at you????? You don't even see how *low* you've set the bar in order to think your marriage is getting better, and it's just so sad.
> 
> Aine is right on the money. You're doing the "Pick Me!!" Dance every single hour of every single day, looking for hidden meaning in every single movement he makes and even *more* sadly, thinking these terribly minor, minimal things are some kind of sign that things are getting better.
> 
> You're basically taking the paltry crumbs he occasionally throws your way and desperately trying to make a 7-course meal out of them. Self-delusion makes you feel better, but honestly? It just sets you up for an even BIGGER fall when you refuse to see reality until it smacks you full in the face. Then, it's debilitating.
> 
> Take off the blinders.


Actually, my expectations are quite high. If they were lower, I'd be content with where we are right now, and I'm not.
I'd stop working towards being a better ME and I'd stop working towards envisioning a better WE and I'd throw in the towel. I'm not giving up on my plan and I'm not lowering my expectations. I believe it is perfectly acceptable to look for the silver lining, it's certainly a lot more productive than looking for the negative. If I am to do my best work and have no regrets on how I've handled this, I'm not going to get there by being angry and negative. I am not a coward either, meaning that I'm not going to NOT do this because it might hurt worse later.

It hurts. It hurt in the beginning, it hurts every day, some days not as much, and some days it's just a blip on the radar. If he leaves me and all my hard work doesn't yield the outcome that I want, then it's going to hurt then too. I know this, and I am OK with this. It's going to hurt NO MATTER WHAT. That's part of letting go of the outcome and just staying the course because I want to handle things a certain way, not because I'm trying to avoid being hurt. 

Am I accepting behavior now, in the moment, while he is going through his crisis that I eventually will not accept? YES.
Am I being forgiving because it's a choice I can make right now to work towards a goal that I have in my sights? YES.
You can call me weak, you can call me sad and pathetic and delusional, you can pass whatever judgement you'd like to, but from where I'm sitting, I'm being very strong and patient and courageous. I am choosing to make my decisions based on my goal of saving my marriage, not based on my feelings. I'm honoring my vows - in sickness and in health, for better or worse. I want to break the cycle of divorce in my family and I want to show my adult children what real commitment looks like, not just fair weather crap.

I'm not begging or pleading for his attention. I go do my own thing when he's in town and when he's out of town. I still occasionally get a little snarky and push back at him. I'm still thinking carefully about my boundaries and determining what some of them are and should be. I continue to work on reducing my bad habits and develop better habits. I'm investing time and energy into my friendships and family, my children, my work. 

I am highlighting positive things like him smiling at me. Because I choose to find and focus on the positive things in order to build up my morale. I am results oriented, and this snails pace of small improvements is driving me absolutely bonkers, but at least there is some improvement. And you know what, things could continue to improve, and the marriage might still not be saved. I know that. The improvements I see might not have any great or deep meaning. That's OK too.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Does your therapist think you are doing the right thing or does she advise you to do the 180 or detach or do something differently?


My therapist continues to encourage me to work on my goals. For example, I really want to be a better listener, which is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be...I tend to listen in order to respond because I am quite a talker. I got in trouble in grade school for talking a lot and that trend hasn't really changed. She continues to give me assignments to help me build those better habits. When I told her how much I was struggling with this she said my assignment was to learn something new about somebody every day. When I'm busy trying to learn something new about a person, even a person I know well, that means I have to talk less and ask more questions. I think this has worked well so far, much better than me just pausing and taking a deep breath, old habits formed over YEARS are really hard to stop.

As for how I am being with my husband, she has been very encouraging of my plan. The one thing she's really coached me on doing or not doing is to not feed into his anger. He hardly ever directs his anger/irritation at me anymore, but he does continue to get worked up about the pandemic, the politics, and society in general, so she's coached me to acknowledge his feelings of anger, but not to encourage or engage him talking about it. She says that anger is an easier emotion to deal with, which is why he's probably more comfortable expressing that right now over most other emotions.

She also believes that when I stay calm, or upbeat, or easy going, or unpredictable, it shows him that he might just be wrong about what ever narrative he's got going on in his head about my role in all of "this" since in the past I usually took things personally and over reacted. He's so used to me acting and reacting a certain way, that by slowly and surely showing him I do NOT or no longer act/react that way, perhaps some of the other "things" he's told himself aren't true either.

I have not asked her specifically about the 180, but she does encourage me to pursue my interests, hobbies, friendships, dinners out with friends etc.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Nothing new to report, same stuff. 
Feeling tired and exhausted today...I am a results oriented person and it's exhausting to continue working and to feel like I'm not seeing the results I should, both with my personal growth and the relationship.

For a month or longer I have felt strong and determined, with only a few ups and downs. However the past week or so I have been struggling emotionally with taking things personally, feeing hurt, getting angry, feeling resentful, and now I'm just tired.

Maybe I'll just spend a day being tired and it will be OK.


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## Anastasia6

When it starts to weigh on you like this, it may be time for a new outlook. Did you ever go visit the business accountant or lawyer or such the first lawyer recommended. You can work toward separation and staying together at the same time you know.


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## lucy999

Maybe it's time to decide if this is your new normal and if you're ok with it. If not, set a deadline to act.


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## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> However the past week or so I have been struggling emotionally with taking things personally, feeing hurt, getting angry, feeling resentful, and now I'm just tired.


Considering the way your husband treats you, and the fact that he's not connecting with you on a level you need, I'm not surprised you feel this way. Actually, it sounds pretty healthy to me that you're getting angry and resentful. After all, he's not exactly being the sort of husband you want right now. It may be your gut starting to tell you that enough is enough.

Working on yourself is all well and good, but can you see where working on yourself and not changing how you behave to his treatment is keeping you in a hold pattern? My guess is your resentment and anger will continue to build if he doesn't change and you don't start to DEMAND change from him. JMO.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> When it starts to weigh on you like this, it may be time for a new outlook. Did you ever go visit the business accountant or lawyer or such the first lawyer recommended. You can work toward separation and staying together at the same time you know.


I did not follow up on those visits, but I do think this winter I'm going to work on "separation" by sorting through my stuff and purging and donating what I really don't want or need.

Tell me more about this working on both at the same time mindset?


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## Anastasia6

Well it is like a life boat. You don't want to need it but you might should have one just in case. You can stay as positive as possible. You can work on you. But you can also think what would need to happen if I decide or he decides this is enough. What would happen at the business? What are your rights to the business income? home? stuff? How would you tell family and friends. You don't get to totally control how this slump of his is going to turn out. So he's been honest about not feeling it. I'm not sure he's been honest about another woman. He may or may not be having an emotional or physical affair but often times people at least have a wish or someone who is sparking this. 

You yourself are beginning to have problems with the lack of any real progress. Looking at what life after marriage would look like might help you also decide to stay or you might find the thought of having a small apartment/house all your own and exploring different things an appealing idea. I find when I plan for all outcomes it helps me be prepared but also helps me decide which outcome I actually want. 

There is no harm in finding out how the separation would effect you. In addition knowing your rights ahead of time can sometimes be very important. While it doesn't apply here a parent separating needs to know if the leave the home they need to try to continue regular contact or when the hearings for custody come around judges often times say well you have only called once so you aren't that interested..... blah blah blah. I don't own a business but you might need to know what you options/good ideas are.

On the flip side it doesn't hurt to have more knowledge. 

Personally I wouldn't even keep the meetings a secret though you could. If your husband says anything, I'd simply say there is a limited amount of time I'm willing to live my life like this and you also want to be prepared. And use the same line he used. You have no plans at this time to leave or divorce. But point out that the current state makes you feel like it might happen. Tell me him the truth. You are trying to improve what you can to improve the relationship and you have some things that in hindsight you might have done differently but that you can't be alone in working toward a good marriage. It's the truth and doesn't have to be confrontational.


----------



## Evinrude58

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I know I sound naïve, I know I do. I re-read what I have written and I think If It were someone else's post, I would be thinking that poor lady is in denial. LOL. I get it. I talked with a close friend today, actually a few. One has known us over 12 years and agrees that she just can't see him having an affair, he's got (or had) integrity and standards for himself. Of course, the world has gone crazy now, so who knows how easy it might be for someone to say F-it and abandon long-held values?
> 
> This space and distance definitely opens things up for an affair if it continues on (again, assuming he's not already)
> 
> I'm psyching myself up for appearing as if I'm great, I'm good, I'm confident, I'm attractive, I've got places to go and things to do and friends to see. THE ONLY PROBLEM is this freakin' pandemic. If I do go places, where the hell am I going to go? Hardly anything is open, how am I going to take up a new hobby, or mysteriously have places to go? Even if I can't figure out what to do, I'll go do something, and I'll be upbeat, and look nice, and be mysterious. I hate that I have to play a stupid game, but I feel like I need to. SO STUPID to be playing games at my age, but I know confidence is attractive. Sitting around feeling sorry for myself, even if I don't say anything, gives off the wrong vibe for sure. He told me to go about my business, so that's exactly what I plan on doing.


I urge you to stop basing your beliefs in how your husband thinks based on how YOU think.
What you describe is classic symptoms of an affair.
Sudden disinterest and distance, change in travel habits, change in frequency of sex, “I need space”.... it’s all classic stuff. Asking a cheater if they’re cheating is POINTLESS. Assuming one’s spouse’s character is not that of a person capable of cheating...... you clearly haven’t had a lot of experience with cheaters..... 

All you have to do in order to find out if your husband is cheating is put a VAR in his car. You can also ask him to see his phone. If he guards it like Gollum does the ring of power, it’s pretty obvious unless he’s an experienced cheater and uses a burner phone.

Please, accept from people with experience, that cheating is a possibility and take some aforementioned steps to rule that out. It’s the most likely cause of what you’re describing.
I’m sorry. Based on what you’ve described, 90% chance he’s cheating.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Wow. At 591 posts, and no understanding.

After reality is accepted choices will be easier to make.

You can do it.


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## Blondilocks

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Wow.* At 591 posts, and no understanding.*
> 
> After reality is accepted choices will be easier to make.
> 
> You can do it.


It's hard for advice to penetrate an armadillo hide helmet.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> Well it is like a life boat. You don't want to need it but you might should have one just in case. You can stay as positive as possible. You can work on you. But you can also think what would need to happen if I decide or he decides this is enough. What would happen at the business? What are your rights to the business income? home? stuff? How would you tell family and friends. You don't get to totally control how this slump of his is going to turn out. So he's been honest about not feeling it. I'm not sure he's been honest about another woman. He may or may not be having an emotional or physical affair but often times people at least have a wish or someone who is sparking this.
> 
> You yourself are beginning to have problems with the lack of any real progress. Looking at what life after marriage would look like might help you also decide to stay or you might find the thought of having a small apartment/house all your own and exploring different things an appealing idea. I find when I plan for all outcomes it helps me be prepared but also helps me decide which outcome I actually want.
> 
> There is no harm in finding out how the separation would effect you. In addition knowing your rights ahead of time can sometimes be very important. While it doesn't apply here a parent separating needs to know if the leave the home they need to try to continue regular contact or when the hearings for custody come around judges often times say well you have only called once so you aren't that interested..... blah blah blah. I don't own a business but you might need to know what you options/good ideas are.
> 
> On the flip side it doesn't hurt to have more knowledge.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't even keep the meetings a secret though you could. If your husband says anything, I'd simply say there is a limited amount of time I'm willing to live my life like this and you also want to be prepared. And use the same line he used. You have no plans at this time to leave or divorce. But point out that the current state makes you feel like it might happen. Tell me him the truth. You are trying to improve what you can to improve the relationship and you have some things that in hindsight you might have done differently but that you can't be alone in working toward a good marriage. It's the truth and doesn't have to be confrontational.



Thank you for this advice, this is really helpful. I have spent the last month with very little change on the relationship side of things even though we did take a vacation together with friends that was planned over a year ago, but husband was pretty checked out for most of it, only lightening up in the evenings at dinner. I had fun, I enjoyed seeing our friends, and I tried hard not to let his crisis bring me down. Recently I started going through my stuff and purging. I have struggled to stay patient and positive, but hopefully this weekend I have regrouped and will carry on. 

I like the idea of being truthful and honest without it needing to be a fight or a confrontation. He can take what he will from whatever I decide to tell him, and I won't make it manipulative either. Your advice is spot on, you know I don't want to be laying down ultimatums, but the truth is that there will be an end to my patience at some point. I will get tired of trying single handedly. The last two weeks I thought I was at that point, but now I am feeling resolve again, so who knows. 

I have also actually started thinking what it might be like to have a place all my own, and I'm not going to lie, there's a little spark of interest on my part.


----------



## Evinrude58

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Yes, I asked him about 6 weeks ago if he was having an affair, more for the shock value and to emphasize just how odd his behavior was, because I really didn't think he was having one, I felt that his behavior was so unlike him.
> 
> He said no, or at least he didn't say yes.


so was he cheating?


----------



## Beach123

Prodigal said:


> Considering the way your husband treats you, and the fact that he's not connecting with you on a level you need, I'm not surprised you feel this way. Actually, it sounds pretty healthy to me that you're getting angry and resentful. After all, he's not exactly being the sort of husband you want right now. It may be your gut starting to tell you that enough is enough.
> 
> Working on yourself is all well and good, but can you see where working on yourself and not changing how you behave to his treatment is keeping you in a hold pattern? My guess is your resentment and anger will continue to build if he doesn't change and you don't start to DEMAND change from him. JMO.


well this is good in theory - however any change that’s implemented can only come from the OP. You can’t count on someone else to change - you count on YOURSELF to make sure change happens.

start changing everything! Then you’ll see how different life gets.

you don’t like it now, right? So you have nothing to loose once you change everything.

while you purge your things - why not also purge the man that’s constantly disconnected and disappointing you? That’s the first place to start.


----------



## Prodigal

Beach123 said:


> well this is good in theory - however any change that’s implemented can only come from the OP. You can’t count on someone else to change - you count on YOURSELF to make sure change happens.


Well, yeah ... But I've never advocated for the OP to do anything to make her husband change. In fact, I've pointed out several times that she can only change herself. FWIW, I consistently hold that stance in other threads too. Again, nothing changes if NOTHING changes.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Update: Husband continues to slowly be coming back from the "dark side". We had friends visit recently and he was quite engaged compared to November. During this weekend visit, he and I were trapped in the car in traffic and something he said triggered a response from me, and I decided at that moment that I was _finally_ going to use the "trapped in a car" and have a talk. We've been in the car several times on road trips and I have chosen NOT to corner him. However, this time was different. I told him that I might seem OK and put on a brave smile, but I was NOT OK, and that my feelings were hurt and this was difficult. I asked him why he was putting up with his own misery for so long? Why was he OK with letting it drag on like this why wasn't he fed up enough to get help or talk to someone? (He didn't say much, so I kept talking) I told him that I was trying to be patient, but at some point I was going to run out. I also asked him why he wasn't worried that I would eventually get tired of all of this and leave him? (again, he had no answer) BUT he did apologize. He said that I might not believe him, but he was sorry that I was so hurt by his actions. I asked him, what would he do if the roles were reversed and I suddenly quit all the affection, quit saying "I love you" quit snuggling, hugs, kisses etc. I also pointed out that it's not like we were arguing much before all this happened. (I was using this as an opportunity to remind him of just what he was doing in an indirect route) He said he did not know because the roles were not reversed. (Insert Major Eye Roll) 

He also said I was trying too hard, and when I pressed him for what that meant, he said I was trying to fix things or take the blame for things that weren't mine. So I explained to him that I was working on me. I couldn't control him or anyone else, but I could certainly control myself, so I was working on improving good habits and getting rid of my bad habits etc. I would have liked to get more info from him, but I think I was lucky he spoke at all. He was like a deer in the headlights the whole time.

Anyway, that's the summary, we had to get out of the car and put on smiley faces for our company, so I opted to let up after about 45 minutes of the serious talk.

The next morning (quite by coincidence) I had an opportunity to show him that I was moving on and making plans without him. Our friends asked if we were going to an event in April with a running group of ours, and I said, "Well, as a matter of fact, I am going, we originally declined the offer, but it came back up recently, and I was re-invited and said Yes. I just haven't had the right opportunity to mention it to my husband." Who was sitting there listening with a shocked/hurt/pained sort of expression. I then told him he was invited to go as well, but it was pretty clear that this was not me arranging a trip for the two of us, but rather me going with or without him.

Oddly enough, he's been much more relaxed and a little happier overall, smiling more and even joking around with me. He's been more thoughtful as well, outwardly thoughtful about what shows I want to watch on the TV and what my plans are. Not sure if it has anything to do with what I said or how I acted, but there it is.


----------



## AGoodFlogging

Interesting update, thanks for sharing.

Obviously it was disappointing that he is still largely stonewalling you (btw that is abusive behaviour). However perhaps a ***** of light here in that becoming less bothered about him and more focussed on you may either start to bring him to his senses or at least take you to a place where you can move on without it being so painful.

I would say move forward with prioritising and living your own life and take a step back from your interactions with him. But, as you've been incredibly patient don't let this drag on indefinitely. Make sure you check back in with yourself regularly and ask a simple question - does being with this man make my life better?


----------



## Anastasia6

I'm glad you had a talk with him. It would be nice if he had responded a little more but it is important if nothing else that he understand where you are at with this. You ever go see a lawyer / accountant about the business and what would happen in the event of a divorce?


----------



## Beach123

That’s a good first step for you. His inability to respond is deafening.

I hope you continue to live your life and leave him behind - he’s certainly not making effort to love you.


----------



## Prodigal

I'm sorry to hear that your husband is stonewalling you, but at least you got some stuff off your chest that needed to be said. Please keep us posted.


----------



## lucy999

I bet that felt really good to finally say your piece. I'm sorry you were met with stonewalling, as the others have said. I think it's a good thing that you are still working on yourself and doing things without him.


----------



## LisaDiane

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Update: Husband continues to slowly be coming back from the "dark side". We had friends visit recently and he was quite engaged compared to November. During this weekend visit, he and I were trapped in the car in traffic and something he said triggered a response from me, and I decided at that moment that I was _finally_ going to use the "trapped in a car" and have a talk. We've been in the car several times on road trips and I have chosen NOT to corner him. However, this time was different. I told him that I might seem OK and put on a brave smile, but I was NOT OK, and that my feelings were hurt and this was difficult. I asked him why he was putting up with his own misery for so long? Why was he OK with letting it drag on like this why wasn't he fed up enough to get help or talk to someone? (He didn't say much, so I kept talking) I told him that I was trying to be patient, but at some point I was going to run out. I also asked him why he wasn't worried that I would eventually get tired of all of this and leave him? (again, he had no answer) BUT he did apologize. He said that I might not believe him, but he was sorry that I was so hurt by his actions. I asked him, what would he do if the roles were reversed and I suddenly quit all the affection, quit saying "I love you" quit snuggling, hugs, kisses etc. I also pointed out that it's not like we were arguing much before all this happened. (I was using this as an opportunity to remind him of just what he was doing in an indirect route) He said he did not know because the roles were not reversed. (Insert Major Eye Roll)
> 
> He also said I was trying too hard, and when I pressed him for what that meant, he said I was trying to fix things or take the blame for things that weren't mine. So I explained to him that I was working on me. I couldn't control him or anyone else, but I could certainly control myself, so I was working on improving good habits and getting rid of my bad habits etc. I would have liked to get more info from him, but I think I was lucky he spoke at all. He was like a deer in the headlights the whole time.
> 
> Anyway, that's the summary, we had to get out of the car and put on smiley faces for our company, so I opted to let up after about 45 minutes of the serious talk.
> 
> The next morning (quite by coincidence) I had an opportunity to show him that I was moving on and making plans without him. Our friends asked if we were going to an event in April with a running group of ours, and I said, "Well, as a matter of fact, I am going, we originally declined the offer, but it came back up recently, and I was re-invited and said Yes. I just haven't had the right opportunity to mention it to my husband." Who was sitting there listening with a shocked/hurt/pained sort of expression. I then told him he was invited to go as well, but it was pretty clear that this was not me arranging a trip for the two of us, but rather me going with or without him.
> 
> Oddly enough, he's been much more relaxed and a little happier overall, smiling more and even joking around with me. He's been more thoughtful as well, outwardly thoughtful about what shows I want to watch on the TV and what my plans are. Not sure if it has anything to do with what I said or how I acted, but there it is.


This is GREAT!! This is what the other posters have been advocating you do all this time...can you see why now?

Notice his response to your more fearless attitude...now imagine what things would be like NOW if you had had that discussion with him 4-5 months ago...


----------



## Anastasia6

That's kinda of unfair. You have no idea how the husband would have reacted 4 or 5 months ago. People aren't static. He is obviously going through something just as she it. 

She has to work through this on her own time. If she had listened to this group she would have left him and never looked back 4-5 months ago. But she is committed to her marriage and working through the issues.

Almost Are you still seeing your therapist?


----------



## Mr.Married

He’s a turd. Flush him for god sakes already !!


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

AGoodFlogging said:


> Interesting update, thanks for sharing.
> 
> Obviously it was disappointing that he is still largely stonewalling you (btw that is abusive behaviour). However perhaps a ***** of light here in that becoming less bothered about him and more focussed on you may either start to bring him to his senses or at least take you to a place where you can move on without it being so painful.
> 
> I would say move forward with prioritising and living your own life and take a step back from your interactions with him. But, as you've been incredibly patient don't let this drag on indefinitely. Make sure you check back in with yourself regularly and ask a simple question - does being with this man make my life better?


Thank you. I see the stonewalling as a protective measure - he's protecting himself. In some instances it might be manipulative, but I do not think that is his goal here.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> I'm glad you had a talk with him. It would be nice if he had responded a little more but it is important if nothing else that he understand where you are at with this. You ever go see a lawyer / accountant about the business and what would happen in the event of a divorce?


I have not made more appointments with lawyers/accountants. I have had to re-hire and start re-training one of our office staff and work has been quite busy, although I'm being under appreciated in that arena as well, and my business partners are very close to seeing me "not give a crap." They want someone to do what needs to be done, they might need to pay more attention to the fact that I'm holding down the fort at MY expense and no one else's. 

You know that saying, "Nice guys finish last?" I'm not last, but I am being trampled on and it's getting really annoying. AND this isn't even my husband I'm talking about, it's ON TOP of what he's doing.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> That’s a good first step for you. His inability to respond is deafening.
> 
> I hope you continue to live your life and leave him behind - he’s certainly not making effort to love you.


I think he's going through a mid life crisis and doesn't even love himself right now. I am leaving him behind in some ways. My kids and I wanted to spend Christmas with family and he did not, so he's at home dog sitting by himself and we are with family having a good time. I see that trend continuing...me doing what I want to do. It's like the stupid pandemic, I refuse to stop living my life. I will be responsible, but I'm not NOT living.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

LisaDiane said:


> This is GREAT!! This is what the other posters have been advocating you do all this time...can you see why now?
> 
> Notice his response to your more fearless attitude...now imagine what things would be like NOW if you had had that discussion with him 4-5 months ago...



I would not have been capable of that discussion 4 or 5 months ago. It would not have been calm and matter of fact, it would have been crying and weak and my words would not have been heard.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Anastasia6 said:


> That's kinda of unfair. You have no idea how the husband would have reacted 4 or 5 months ago. People aren't static. He is obviously going through something just as she it.
> 
> She has to work through this on her own time. If she had listened to this group she would have left him and never looked back 4-5 months ago. But she is committed to her marriage and working through the issues.
> 
> Almost Are you still seeing your therapist?


I am still seeing my therapist, about every two weeks.


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## Prodigal

At this point, your husband has checked out of the marriage. And I'm fairly certain he knows he's hurting you by not giving you the love you need. My guess is if he's still behaving like this a year from now, you'll be making plans to live elsewhere. Sad, but true. 

I just can't figure out why he has blocked you from being a part of his life. It's obvious you want to be there for him. Well, it's his loss. As you continue to do things you enjoy and build a fulfilling life without him, you'll probably get to a point where you'll be ready to move on.


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## LisaDiane

Anastasia6 said:


> That's kinda of unfair. You have no idea how the husband would have reacted 4 or 5 months ago. People aren't static. He is obviously going through something just as she it.
> 
> She has to work through this on her own time. If she had listened to this group she would have left him and never looked back 4-5 months ago. But she is committed to her marriage and working through the issues.





AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I would not have been capable of that discussion 4 or 5 months ago. It would not have been calm and matter of fact, it would have been crying and weak and my words would not have been heard.


Well, I definitely stand corrected!! 

I'm really happy for you no matter how it happened, and I think you are handling things beautifully right now. What matters is how it all works FOR YOU, anyways.

As always with anything I write, if you know I'm WRONG, just ignore me! 
GOOD LUCK!!!


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Thank you everyone for the feedback & encouragement!

Update: Maybe my patience and fortitude are finally paying off. 
I was just complaining about lack of appreciation at work, and low and behold, things turned around the very next day. Not only was I thanked for all my extra work and dedication, but I am receiving the green light to get additional help in the office. YAY. I immediately wondered if I was somehow overheard *****ing, but I only talked to a couple people and and only 1 of those people has any sort of connection to work and she swears she said nothing. 
Got home from Christmas with my family and walked in the door to a clean kitchen, dinner ready, presents purchased and wrapped, and a husband eager to fill me in on some gifts he got for the grandkids etc. (we will be doing a little Holiday get together with them soon)
He also hasn't planned any jobs out of town this week, normally he would have that all lined up. This might be his first full week home in months.


----------



## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you everyone for the feedback & encouragement!
> 
> Update: Maybe my patience and fortitude are finally paying off.
> I was just complaining about lack of appreciation at work, and low and behold, things turned around the very next day. Not only was I thanked for all my extra work and dedication, but I am receiving the green light to get additional help in the office. YAY. I immediately wondered if I was somehow overheard *****ing, but I only talked to a couple people and and only 1 of those people has any sort of connection to work and she swears she said nothing.
> Got home from Christmas with my family and walked in the door to a clean kitchen, dinner ready, presents purchased and wrapped, and a husband eager to fill me in on some gifts he got for the grandkids etc. (we will be doing a little Holiday get together with them soon)
> He also hasn't planned any jobs out of town this week, normally he would have that all lined up. This might be his first full week home in months.


Reply well at least you've had a good couple days. Hope it lasts. Enjoy it.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Ok guys, here it is. Please, please, please don't bash me for being the optimistic, trusting person that I am. He is having an emotional affair with someone he met online. I found out this weekend. He won't tell me ANYTHING about her or when/how they met but He says they haven't met in person, of course I have no way to know if he's lying about that and I told him that. I told him let's take a week so I can process this and then talk about what direction we want to take. He was ready for me to kick him out, but I didn't want to make any knee-jerk decisions. HELL, I've suspected something like this for months, so it's not like the thought never crossed my mind. We had some really great open and honest talks this weekend [finally] and he says SHE is not a deciding factor for him, that his crisis/issues are what's really making this difficult. In his mind, staying and working on our marriage is EASIER because it's the RIGHT thing to do and it won't destroy as many people/relationships (like with the kids) but LEAVING is harder because he doesn't think he is strong enough to be on his own and disappoint so many people. 

I told him I wasn't making any decisions for him and if he wanted to stay and work on things then I had to be something he wanted, not something he was settling for. I told him, it would be easier if I kicked him out because then he wouldn't totally be "the bad guy" and either way FEAR was tainting it both ways for him. Making a decision based on fear won't last. 

"I'm afraid to be on my own" is a sucky reason to stay with me.

I would like some GOOD ADVICE, I already know most of you want me to walk away, but I honestly don't think I want that....but how does one go about this? It seems messy either way.


----------



## GC1234

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Ok guys, here it is. Please, please, please don't bash me for being the optimistic, trusting person that I am. He is having an emotional affair with someone he met online. I found out this weekend. He won't tell me ANYTHING about her or when/how they met but He says they haven't met in person, of course I have no way to know if he's lying about that and I told him that. I told him let's take a week so I can process this and then talk about what direction we want to take. He was ready for me to kick him out, but I didn't want to make any knee-jerk decisions. HELL, I've suspected something like this for months, so it's not like the thought never crossed my mind. We had some really great open and honest talks this weekend [finally] and he says SHE is not a deciding factor for him, that his crisis/issues are what's really making this difficult. In his mind, staying and working on our marriage is EASIER because it's the RIGHT thing to do and it won't destroy as many people/relationships (like with the kids) but LEAVING is harder because he doesn't think he is strong enough to be on his own and disappoint so many people.
> 
> I told him I wasn't making any decisions for him and if he wanted to stay and work on things then I had to be something he wanted, not something he was settling for. I told him, it would be easier if I kicked him out because then he wouldn't totally be "the bad guy" and either way FEAR was tainting it both ways for him. Making a decision based on fear won't last.
> 
> "I'm afraid to be on my own" is a sucky reason to stay with me.
> 
> I would like some GOOD ADVICE, I already know most of you want me to walk away, but I honestly don't think I want that....but how does one go about this? It seems messy either way.


I understand where you're coming from, but you're allowing yourself in a way to be second choice, plan B. Why? You've been trying to get him to open up for a while now. She may not be the deciding factor, but he's still a willing participant by talking to her. It's easier for him to stay and work on it b/c he doesn't want to seem like the bad guy. I don't mean offense, but how can you stand for that? He is still having an emotional affair at the very least.


----------



## Evinrude58

Him saying she isn’t a deciding factor is like black clouds and a blowing rain not being a deciding factor on whether or not I take an umbrella. He’s lying.

here’s my advice and I’ll explain why after:

Don’t kick him out. File for divorce, hand him papers, and break off all communication with him. Tell his parents and friends what he is doing and ignore his pleas to keep it quiet. Make him believe you are divorcing him. If the other woman has a husband, tell him at all costs.

why: He needs a traumatic experience to break his mindset of constantly thinking about her, which is what he’s doing and why he’s distant.
Throwing papers in his face will be traumatic. If he signs the and gives them back, let him go and never look back. If he refuses, make him sign them and start the process, only backing off after he’s been a damn good husband and giving you all the attention you can stand for a WHILE.

Your husband has been lying to you all this time. He’s lying when he says she’s not a deciding factor. I believe if it wasn’t for the financial and Shame side of things, he’d have left you already. Don’t be naive. He has already cut you off emotionally and that’s why you were originally here. Remember, we told you to look for another woman to start off with. We aren’t emotionally caught up in this. You are. We see things unbiased and through the eyes of people who have read these stories over and over.

go nuclear and blow this affair out of the water. It’s an affair, plain and simple. Even if an emotional one, it is absolutely just as damaging to his feelings for you.
Have no mercy on him if you want him back not just physically, but emotionally.

the factor you have in your favor is that in my opinion, men hang on to their feelings for a woman and rarely ever are they totally gone. Of course, the smart money is to drop your cheater like a bad habit. But you don’t seem to want that.

btw, when he told you about the other woman, did he say the words “it was never physical”??? Because if so, he’s 100% banged her numerous times.

I reread your thread and you were told countless times it was another woman and stayed in denial. You found condoms in his briefcase? Come on, now.

He has gaslit the hell out of you for a loooooong time. This guy would be super easy to get back. Kick him out and let him have her. After a few days or possibly weeks of real life with her, he’d be begging on his hands and knees for you to take him back. You are not wise if you do. Once things calm down and you start thinking with a clear head about how badly your husband treated you, how many times youbegged for truth and he said some crap about he didn’t know and just wanted to be alone and all this other cheater-speak drivel, you’re gonna have some major resentment and anger. 
good luck.


----------



## Prodigal

How exactly did you find out that your husband was having an EA? I'm in agreement with @Evinrude58 on this. Your husband has kept his affair from you for months. And now he doesn't want to tell you anything about it? To hell with that. He's refusing to come clean and be totally honest with you ... just as he has from the start.

At this point, I see him as a cheater with little or no remorse. In fact, it sounds like he's protecting his affair and affair partner. Time to go nuclear, but that's just my opinion. Sadly, the fact that he admits he doesn't want to live alone makes him sound like a cake eater to me. He wants the comfort of maintaining his family man image, but want to "play" with another woman.

I'm sorry it's come to this for you, but if I was in your shoes, I'd ask him to leave.


----------



## GC1234

Evinrude58 said:


> Him saying she isn’t a deciding factor is like black clouds and a blowing rain not being a deciding factor on whether or not I take an umbrella. He’s lying.
> 
> here’s my advice and I’ll explain why after:
> 
> Don’t kick him out. File for divorce, hand him papers, and break off all communication with him. Tell his parents and friends what he is doing and ignore his pleas to keep it quiet. Make him believe you are divorcing him. If the other woman has a husband, tell him at all costs.
> 
> why: He needs a traumatic experience to break his mindset of constantly thinking about her, which is what he’s doing and why he’s distant.
> Throwing papers in his face will be traumatic. If he signs the and gives them back, let him go and never look back. If he refuses, make him sign them and start the process, only backing off after he’s been a damn good husband and giving you all the attention you can stand for a WHILE.
> 
> Your husband has been lying to you all this time. He’s lying when he says she’s not a deciding factor. I believe if it wasn’t for the financial and Shame side of things, he’d have left you already. Don’t be naive. He has already cut you off emotionally and that’s why you were originally here. Remember, we told you to look for another woman to start off with. We aren’t emotionally caught up in this. You are. We see things unbiased and through the eyes of people who have read these stories over and over.
> 
> go nuclear and blow this affair out of the water. It’s an affair, plain and simple. Even if an emotional one, it is absolutely just as damaging to his feelings for you.
> Have no mercy on him if you want him back not just physically, but emotionally.
> 
> the factor you have in your favor is that in my opinion, men hang on to their feelings for a woman and rarely ever are they totally gone. Of course, the smart money is to drop your cheater like a bad habit. But you don’t seem to want that.
> 
> btw, when he told you about the other woman, did he say the words “it was never physical”??? Because if so, he’s 100% banged her numerous times.
> 
> I reread your thread and you were told countless times it was another woman and stayed in denial. You found condoms in his briefcase? Come on, now.
> 
> He has gaslit the hell out of you for a loooooong time. This guy would be super easy to get back. Kick him out and let him have her. After a few days or possibly weeks of real life with her, he’d be begging on his hands and knees for you to take him back. You are not wise if you do. Once things calm down and you start thinking with a clear head about how badly your husband treated you, how many times youbegged for truth and he said some crap about he didn’t know and just wanted to be alone and all this other cheater-speak drivel, you’re gonna have some major resentment and anger.
> good luck.


These are great points!!


----------



## sunsetmist

No matter what we say, you want to stay with this liar who has been having an emotional affair for who knows how long--at least 10 months. Six days ago you thought your patience and fortitude were finally paying off. At Christmas he wasn't alone, he was talking to her. Perhaps he has even signed up for online partners--you cannot trust him so you'll not know.

I'm an optimistic and trusting person too--until I open my eyes, gird my heart, sweep out my brain and face reality. Only you knows why you are stuck on the invested 24 years of the past instead of the possibilities of the future. I agree with @Evinrude58. I think you deserve better--wish you thought so.


----------



## Violet28

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He is having an emotional affair with someone he met online. I found out this weekend. He won't tell me ANYTHING about her or when/how they met but He says they haven't met in person, of course I have no way to know if he's lying about that and I told him that. I told him let's take a week so I can process this and then talk about what direction we want to take. He was ready for me to kick him out, but I didn't want to make any knee-jerk decisions.


There is probably a reason he told you now, he could be considering meeting her in person and wanted you to kick him out so he could 'justify' it in his mind.



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> We had some really great open and honest talks this weekend [finally] and he says SHE is not a deciding factor for him, that his crisis/issues are what's really making this difficult.


In my experience, men often become wonderfully honest right before they walk out the door. It's because they don't give a **** anymore about how what they say impacts you or hurts you. He may even think that his 'crisis' is what is making his life difficult but ask him this, when did his 'crisis' start and when did he start talking to her or thinking about talking to another woman? 



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> In his mind, staying and working on our marriage is EASIER because it's the RIGHT thing to do and it won't destroy as many people/relationships (like with the kids) but LEAVING is harder because he doesn't think he is strong enough to be on his own and disappoint so many people.
> 
> I told him I wasn't making any decisions for him and if he wanted to stay and work on things then I had to be something he wanted, not something he was settling for. I told him, it would be easier if I kicked him out because then he wouldn't totally be "the bad guy" and either way FEAR was tainting it both ways for him. Making a decision based on fear won't last.


He sees you as an option and knows that he holds all the cards in his hands. He knows he's the one at fault and doesn't want everyone else to know it, too. Is this what you want for a marriage? A man that is only staying because of how him leaving would look to other people? 

You don't have to file for divorce if you aren't ready but at least draw up a separation agreement to protect yourself. And please do not have sex with him anymore, that is just feeding into his idea that you are an option and something he can use until he decides what he really wants to do.


----------



## Openminded

I doubt that anyone who followed your story is surprised. IIRC, you said in the beginning that another relationship on his part wouldn’t necessarily be a dealbreaker for you and I can understand the strong pull to try to rebuild. I stayed for many years after I caught my ex-husband cheating so I know what that’s like. A word of caution: never assume he’s telling you the total truth. And don’t make the mistake of trusting him 100% again — that’s asking for trouble. It will take years to recover and that time will be full of ups and downs and triggers and anger and sadness. Take it a day at a time or even a moment at a time. I wish the best for you.


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## 3Xnocharm

So even with you knowing the “truth “, he is still lying his ass off to you. 
She is absolutely 100% a deciding factor for him, allll of this has been because of her. I don’t believe for one second that this hasn’t gone physical, I think she accompanies him on all of his out of town work trips. Or they meet up wherever he goes. Don’t be naive. 

So he actually told you that staying is the easy thing to do because he saves face and is afraid to be on his own. You don’t say that he mentioned a single word about loving you and wanting to be with you. No mention about actually saving the marriage. (Staying married is not actually saving the marriage) he doesn’t want you. Why in the world would you want to stay with a man showing you this kind of blatant disrespect after lying to you for almost an entire year and cheating on you? This man is not worth having, this man is not worth fighting for. You’re only setting yourself up for him to use you and abuse you. Please have more self-respect than to waste anymore time letting him wipe his feet on you and your marriage. 

I like Evinrude‘s advice, file for divorce and hand him the papers. But then tell him he needs to get the hell out of your home. And tell everybody you both know what he’s done. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

And there’s a world of difference between “I found out” and “he told me”. In my case, I found out and my ex-husband never admitted to one bit more than I could prove. Even then, he tried very hard to spin it; he never wanted a divorce and he fought it when, years later, I told him I was done. Your husband probably doesn’t want a divorce either. But whether he truly wants you or the convenience of marriage (and keeping his good guy image) is the real question.


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## Evinrude58

3Xnocharm said:


> So even with you knowing the “truth “, he is still lying his ass off to you.
> She is absolutely 100% a deciding factor for him, allll of this has been because of her.* I don’t believe for one second that this hasn’t gone physical, I think she accompanies him on all of his out of town work trips. Or they meet up wherever he goes. Don’t be naive.
> 
> So he actually told you that staying is the easy thing to do because he saves face and is afraid to be on his own. You don’t say that he mentioned a single word about loving you and wanting to be with you*. No mention about actually saving the marriage. (Staying married is not actually saving the marriage) he doesn’t want you. Why in the world would you want to stay with a man showing you this kind of blatant disrespect after lying to you for almost an entire year and cheating on you? This man is not worth having, this man is not worth fighting for. *You’re only setting yourself up for him to use you and abuse you.* Please have more self-respect than to waste anymore time letting him wipe his feet on you and your marriage.
> 
> I like Evinrude‘s advice, file for divorce and hand him the papers. But then tell him he needs to get the hell out of your home. And tell everybody you both know what he’s done.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yep, yep, and yep

Sadly, OP, you think you actually had a truthful and deep conversation with him.
You didn’t. All you had with him was a feeling out session in which he discovered just how much you’d tolerate out of him, and that basically no matter what he does, he doesn’t have to worry about consequences of his actions. 

He’svery unlikely to change his behavior now. He’s got a loving, wonderful wife who worships him and takes care of him—- and he has some new tail on the side that he can trade out when he’s done with her. Why in his deranged mind would he ever want to stop.

Good news, he won’t leave now that the cat is out of the bag and he feels secure in the knowledge that you’ll allow this and eat up the lying, poo laced sammich he’s fed you.


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## lucy999

First and foremost, I'm really sorry. I know it hurts.

Exactly _how_ did you find out? Context is everything. Did he tell you or did you find out on your own? Because if you found out, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow, he would still be lying to you and you'd be none the wiser. Chew on that for awhile. Online, huh? I know he won't tell you anything but I wonder if he was on dating apps looking around?

So now your husband wants to do the right thing? After what, almost a year? That's rich. His moral compass broke a long time ago.

While I understand from the get-go you told us an affair might not be a deal breaker for you, it breaks my heart to see you settle so easily for crumbs while your husband has been feasting on cake for damn near a year.

But you asked for advice along those lines. Ok.

Accept that:

1. He is a lying liar who lies.

2. You will have to routinely get tested for STDs. Because see #1.

3. You will never be able to trust him again. Because see #1.

4. You are not his first choice.

5. They most definitely have had sex. Because see #1.

6. She most definitely is the deciding factor. Because see #1.

7. You don't get to decide what happens to your marriage. He has all the power. Because you're that desperate to keep him. And he knows it. He's probably throwing you a bone so your jointly owned business doesn't go belly up.

8. If _he_ decides he wants to "work on the marriage" he still can pull the plug at any time.

9. Always refer back to #1.

If you can accept and live with all of the above (and much, much more--I gave you the Cliffs Notes version), then you'll be ok.

Again, I'm really sorry.


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## Diana7

Of course she is a deciding factor, if not for her things would be very different.
Unless he tells you who she is and exactly what has gone on how can you even think you can have any sort of marriage again? The VERY least he can do if he wants to stay with you is tell you everything and be completely open with all his electrical devices and passwords. Plus cut off all contact for good. He is still hiding so much and cant be trusted. How can you be sure that when you were away for the holidays he wasnt with her? Hense the clean home and meal and presents when you got home....guilt. Hense him not wanting to go with you.....time alone with her.
He wants to stay with you and still have her, are you going to allow that? He isnt repentant because he is still keeping big secrets.Why?

My conditions for not throwing him out immediately would be a) he tells you who she is and ALL the details and b) that he cuts off all contact with her for good.
If necessary you could ask for him to take a lie detector test, even the threat of one can lead to confesssions.


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## Affaircare

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Ok guys, here it is. Please, please, please don't bash me for being the optimistic, trusting person that I am. He is having an emotional affair with someone he met online. I found out this weekend. He won't tell me ANYTHING about her or when/how they met but He says they haven't met in person, of course I have no way to know if he's lying about that and I told him that.


@AlmostEmptyNester, first let me just say that I am so sorry. I know it hurts like crazy to have this happen. In some ways I'm glad you finally know the truth so you can make decisions FOR YOU that are wise FOR YOU and have your best interests in mind, and no matter how painful it is, I know the truth is something you can deal with (versus the lies and deliberate misleading).

I want to let you know right now that I'm not going to bash your husband, but I'm not going to coddle him either, and I love ya but I think you tend to do that. You are a very nice person, but you tend to harm yourself to maintain your denial, and I want to send you some good, honest truth that will shine like rays of sunshine. It will hurt, but you won't be in denial anymore...

So seven months ago, you started this thread. Seven months ago, I think you had that gut feeling that "something was going on" and you made the decision to not investigate, to excuse the poor treatment and disrespect, and to kind of "look past it" to work on yourself. Okay, working on yourself is never a bad thing, but for seven months now you knew in your innermost being that it felt like an affair, and for seven months now you've let him treat you very poorly! So let me remind you that your husband has both legal and moral obligations to you as his spouse and the mother of his children. He has NO SUCH OBLIGATION to his Adultery Partner, and yet here we are seven months later, and look who he's protecting: not the woman to whom he is both legally and morally connected, but the woman with whom he is committing adultery! "He won't tell you abou her or how they met" means that he's concerned about protecting her AT YOUR EXPENSE. For seven months now, he has known that he is committing adultery, and he has let you twist in the wind, hurting and alone--and now he is protecting HER...not you. So please make no mistake, his thoughts and intentions are not...NOT...to do the right thing by you.



> ...I told him let's take a week so I can process this and then talk about what direction we want to take. He was ready for me to kick him out, but I didn't want to make any knee-jerk decisions. HELL, I've suspected something like this for months, so it's not like the thought never crossed my mind.


Okay I get this. It's actually pretty smart: don't make a huge, life-changing decision while angry, sorrowing, or in pain. I think asking for a week is reasonable. But here's the part I don't think is reasonable: "...what direction WE want to take." There is no "WE." This is him wanting to have you for security and her for fun...or him wanting to have you gracefully disappear so he can have her. There is literally 0% chance that he's thinking about what is best for you. If he were, he would not have been able to lie to your face for seven long months while he saw you were agonizing over what was going on. So I'm not saying you "have to" do this or do that--but what I am saying is that I would strongly recommend you change your thinking from "...what WE want to do" to "...what I HAVE DECIDED IS BEST FOR ME AND MY CHILDREN."

Thus, this week would be an EXCELLENT chance for you to find your state's laws about divorce and read them! (If you need help finding your state laws online, PM me your state and I will get you a link). READ THEM yourself--don't just depend on a lawyer, because you know your situation and knowledge is power. You need to know your rights and what you are and are not entitled to. Then consult with some attorneys in your state and find out about divorce. Be informed. Don't be afraid--this is happening! So learn and make informed decisions FOR YOURSELF about YOUR OWN FUTURE and the future of your children.

At the same time you can be kind. You don't have to be an asshole to him. You may decide that you're entitled to a 50/50 split and no Child Support cuz the kids are grown, but you are willing to accept 45% in a lump sum and never see him again. Or you may decide that you just want to be free. Or you may decide that you want to ask the court to order mandatory counseling. Whatever you decide, that's up to you, but if you KNOW what your legal rights are, you'll be able to proceed much more wisely.



> We had some really great open and honest talks this weekend [finally] and he says SHE is not a deciding factor for him, that his crisis/issues are what's really making this difficult. In his mind, staying and working on our marriage is EASIER because it's the RIGHT thing to do and it won't destroy as many people/relationships (like with the kids) but LEAVING is harder because he doesn't think he is strong enough to be on his own and disappoint so many people.


Okay so @AlmostEmptyNester ... come on, girl. Have more respect for yourself. Again, I'm not saying this to be harsh on your husband, but rather as someone who was former unfaithful and has been in that crazy, foggy way of thinking. This is B.S.! "...SHE is not a deciding factor..." Before SHE came along, he may have had some issues with the marriage or within himself, but if he were an honest, decent, honorable, RESPECTFUL man who was honoring the promise he made to himself, to you, and to his family, he would have brought those issues to you and worked them out with you. I get it--you aren't always easy to deal with and you maybe scare him or make him insecure or whatever. But a RESPECTABLE person would say, "Hey honey, you know what? I made a promise to spend my life treating you in a loving way, but how you're treating me is not okay with me" OR "Hey honey, I know I made a promise to treat you in a loving way until death parted us, but I'm having a really difficult time right now with the kids leaving the nest--I don't know who I'm supposed to be"... Right?

OF COURSE, "SHE" is a deciding factor! If there had been no "SHE" he would have stuck with his own children and his own WIFE! But once there is a "SHE" he thinks "Oh, someone who thinks I'm amazing. Someone who is intrigued by me. Someone who at least acts like she's attracted (whether she actually is or not)." And he's comparing YOU vs. HER...and yet she has never had to put up with his B.S. She has never had to try to balance the bills while money's tight. She never had to raise two kids alone while he took off all over the country. She never had to run a company alone while he just left her to do it! Of course "SHE" is all lovey-dovey and perfect--he only sees her "at her best" and for a short time! He has never seen her with the flu or a really bad period. He's never seen her so mad her veins pop! He has not "lived" with her!! So he's making a decision based on a fantasy of what he "thinks" she is, compared to you as you really are a real person in real life! So don't listen to him. SHE is a deciding factor--because if there were no "HER" there would be no decision to be made.

All that other stuff? He's just coating lies with honey so you'll swallow it.



> I told him I wasn't making any decisions for him and if he wanted to stay and work on things then I had to be something he wanted, not something he was settling for. I told him, it would be easier if I kicked him out because then he wouldn't totally be "the bad guy" and either way FEAR was tainting it both ways for him. Making a decision based on fear won't last.
> 
> "I'm afraid to be on my own" is a sucky reason to stay with me.


Why does HE get to decide this? Why are you willing to not only settle for, but accept, a life partner who has demonstrated they are of such character that they are willing to break their promises AND allow you to hurt so they don't suffer? See, here's where your issues are showing @AlmostEmptyNester. This isn't up to him to decide what's easier, or which one of you is "better for him." This is up to YOU. Are YOU willing to have a life partner who will lie to you for seven months? Are YOU willing to trust an untrustworthy person? Are YOU willing to rugsweep the fact that you have been hurting for seven months and he knew the cause but let you hurt?

See, I get it. You weren't the one who wanted to end the marriage. In fact, you want the marriage (and even were a little willing to live in denial to keep it). But now it's reality. He is an adulterer. Adultery kills the marriage, as in, the marriage "as you knew it" is dead. So you now have two options: you can move on (and that is likely the option that many will suggest) OR both of you can utterly change and have a whole new, different marriage. You will never, EVER have the marriage you had before--can you accept that?

My guess is that you would likely do almost anything to keep this marriage--probably out of fear. But if you do choose that, what if he chooses to be the exact same man he's always been and doesn't want to make the effort to change, grow, and rebuild a wholly different marriage? You gonna stay? Because if you do, then if nothing changes...nothing changes. He'll stray again, because there was nothing new within his heart! In order for this to even have a chance, HE has to WILLING want to learn to be a NEW MAN with a NEW HEART and learn how to be a NEW HUSBAND. That would include willingly allowing you INTO his private life, keeping no secrets, being open and transparent with his thoughts and feelings... Think about this.



> I would like some GOOD ADVICE, I already know most of you want me to walk away, but I honestly don't think I want that....but how does one go about this? It seems messy either way.


Well, here's the best advice I can give you. You have a week at your own request. I suggest getting him a HOTEL ROOM for a week so that he can have a little taste of what "life without you" is like. I suggest no contact AT ALL throughout the whole week. I suggest that during the week, you find the laws in your state about divorce and read them--all of them--so that you are knowledgable. I suggest that you have as many emergency meetings with your counselor as you can, to help you think cleary. I suggest that you set aside what you think he wants, and what you "wish for", and do your best to make a wise decision FOR YOU based on YOUR OWN BEST INTERESTS. And I suggest that at the conclusion of the week, that you and your husband and the kids have a "Family Meeting" at which time you tell the boys that the two of you are at a serious crossroads in your marriage because their dad cheated and you found out about it just a week ago. That's all that needs to be said (in the sense that you are having the meeting to state the truth in an age-appropriate way). YES they need to be told. YES it's going to be messy, but it is messy because their father committed adultery, NOT because you told the truth about what he actually DID! YES, everyone is going to be hurt, because his actions HURT EVERYONE!! The only way this could even possibly be repaired (and it is conceivable but very unlikely) would be if their dad was man enough to admit what he did himself, to accept the natural consequence of his choices and actions (it is reasonable for his kids to be angry at him acting that way!), and to then be willing to humbly rebuild trust by acting in an honest, open way knowing that it is reasonable for people to doubt and check up on him!


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## Evinrude58

Again, excellent advice from Affaircare.
Something to think about. It hurts me OP, to read the things you say your husband says. He is so obviously lying and spinning things to keep you from seeing how poorly he’s treated you and how shameful his behavior really is. You are hurting and he is taking full advantage of your pain to keep up his affair while you tolerate it. He is very simply having an affair. And all of his actions show he’s a typical cheater with the same old lines and same old lies.

I hope you have someone close to you that will support you emotionally when you’re hurting like this.


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## Blondilocks

Start looking for a new job. Or, start your own business. Let him figure out how he is going to keep the business running and chase tail at the same time. He has done nothing but use you with your blessing.


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## AGoodFlogging

I haven't read the full thread so don't know how old the kids are, but I'd really urge caution in just dumping their father's infidelity on them if they are kids. I suggest you have a look at some professional advice on how to manage children during marital conflict and divorce. It is not necessarily in the kids' best interests to be drawn too deeply into this issue while it remains unresolved.


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## azimuth

The only reason he hasn't run off with her or any of his other mistresses, is because of money. It's too expensive to divorce. He doesn't care about you or your 24 years together. He threw it all away for another woman and he doesn't give a crap except for how expensive it's going to be for him.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Evinrude58 said:


> Him saying she isn’t a deciding factor is like black clouds and a blowing rain not being a deciding factor on whether or not I take an umbrella. He’s lying.
> 
> here’s my advice and I’ll explain why after:
> 
> Don’t kick him out. File for divorce, hand him papers, and break off all communication with him. Tell his parents and friends what he is doing and ignore his pleas to keep it quiet. Make him believe you are divorcing him. If the other woman has a husband, tell him at all costs.
> 
> why: He needs a traumatic experience to break his mindset of constantly thinking about her, which is what he’s doing and why he’s distant.
> Throwing papers in his face will be traumatic. If he signs the and gives them back, let him go and never look back. If he refuses, make him sign them and start the process, only backing off after he’s been a damn good husband and giving you all the attention you can stand for a WHILE.
> 
> Your husband has been lying to you all this time. He’s lying when he says she’s not a deciding factor. I believe if it wasn’t for the financial and Shame side of things, he’d have left you already. Don’t be naive. He has already cut you off emotionally and that’s why you were originally here. Remember, we told you to look for another woman to start off with. We aren’t emotionally caught up in this. You are. We see things unbiased and through the eyes of people who have read these stories over and over.
> 
> go nuclear and blow this affair out of the water. It’s an affair, plain and simple. Even if an emotional one, it is absolutely just as damaging to his feelings for you.
> Have no mercy on him if you want him back not just physically, but emotionally.
> 
> the factor you have in your favor is that in my opinion, men hang on to their feelings for a woman and rarely ever are they totally gone. Of course, the smart money is to drop your cheater like a bad habit. But you don’t seem to want that.
> 
> btw, when he told you about the other woman, did he say the words “it was never physical”??? Because if so, he’s 100% banged her numerous times.
> 
> I reread your thread and you were told countless times it was another woman and stayed in denial. You found condoms in his briefcase? Come on, now.
> 
> He has gaslit the hell out of you for a loooooong time. This guy would be super easy to get back. Kick him out and let him have her. After a few days or possibly weeks of real life with her, he’d be begging on his hands and knees for you to take him back. You are not wise if you do. Once things calm down and you start thinking with a clear head about how badly your husband treated you, how many times youbegged for truth and he said some crap about he didn’t know and just wanted to be alone and all this other cheater-speak drivel, you’re gonna have some major resentment and anger.
> good luck.



I think you've given me some good advice.
Some other thread was the condoms in the suitcase thread.
He didn't tell me about the affair, dumbass posted a message of love to her in a group chat we are in.
Several friends saw the message like I did and when I asked who she was, he deleted the message.
He tried to play it off but admitted it the next morning.

Thank you.
The question is, do I still want him? Do I want a liar?


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Prodigal said:


> How exactly did you find out that your husband was having an EA? I'm in agreement with @Evinrude58 on this. Your husband has kept his affair from you for months. And now he doesn't want to tell you anything about it? To hell with that. He's refusing to come clean and be totally honest with you ... just as he has from the start.
> 
> At this point, I see him as a cheater with little or no remorse. In fact, it sounds like he's protecting his affair and affair partner. Time to go nuclear, but that's just my opinion. Sadly, the fact that he admits he doesn't want to live alone makes him sound like a cake eater to me. He wants the comfort of maintaining his family man image, but want to "play" with another woman.
> 
> I'm sorry it's come to this for you, but if I was in your shoes, I'd ask him to leave.



He accidentally posted words of love to her in a group chat we are in.
It does seem like he's protecting her, or at least himself.
I think he fully expects me to kick him out.
His first wife cheated on him so I have the added "benefit" of him thinking he knows exactly how I feel and how I'll act.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

AGoodFlogging said:


> I haven't read the full thread so don't know how old the kids are, but I'd really urge caution in just dumping their father's infidelity on them if they are kids. I suggest you have a look at some professional advice on how to manage children during marital conflict and divorce. It is not necessarily in the kids' best interests to be drawn too deeply into this issue while it remains unresolved.


The youngest kid is 20


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## Beach123

Hmmmm, so he has been having an affair.
Well he’s been stealing YOUR peace of mind for a LONG time.

that isn’t what loving behavior looks like! I’d start that divorce now! See if he realizes what he’s actually done to you. 

See if he’s willing to do 200% effort to fix what he ruined! If he’s not - get the divorce ginalized


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## AlmostEmptyNester

azimuth said:


> The only reason he hasn't run off with her or any of his other mistresses, is because of money. It's too expensive to divorce. He doesn't care about you or your 24 years together. He threw it all away for another woman and he doesn't give a crap except for how expensive it's going to be for him.


It's entirely possible that he's more worried about how messy the money side of things will be. 
EVERYTHING is in both our names, literally everything except our retirement plans.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Beach123 said:


> Hmmmm, so he has been having an affair.
> Well he’s been stealing YOUR peace of mind for a LONG time.
> 
> that isn’t what loving behavior looks like! I’d start that divorce now! See if he realizes what he’s actually done to you.
> 
> See if he’s willing to do 200% effort to fix what he ruined! If he’s not - get the divorce ginalized


He wanted ME to make the decision for both of us, and I said, NO.
If I make it for him, that gives him an excuse to keep stonewalling and do things half assed.
OR if I kick him out, then that solves all sorts of other problems for him and I am not in the mood to continue solving his problems.
I told him if he wants to work on US, then that has to be a decision he makes because I want to be picked, I do not want to be settled for.


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## jlg07

In the meantime, you should get a lawyer to see what D plans would look like for you. Better to know than not, and it does NOT mean you have to file the divorce if you don't want to -- just get the info.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

jlg07 said:


> In the meantime, you should get a lawyer to see what D plans would look like for you. Better to know than not, and it does NOT mean you have to file the divorce if you don't want to -- just get the info.


I have seen a lawyer who told me to see a divorce accountant....maybe I need to work both of those into my schedule next week regardless. I want to talk to a different lawyer.


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## lucy999

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He wanted ME to make the decision for both of us, and I said, NO.
> If I make it for him, that gives him an excuse to keep stonewalling and do things half assed.
> OR if I kick him out, then that solves all sorts of other problems for him and I am not in the mood to continue solving his problems.


Another reason he wants you to do one of these is impression management. I think someone else posted this already, but he doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy.

"She filed for divorce!"
"She kicked me out!"


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## Openminded

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He accidentally posted words of love to her in a group chat we are in.
> It does seem like he's protecting her, or at least himself.
> I think he fully expects me to kick him out.
> His first wife cheated on him so I have the added "benefit" of him thinking he knows exactly how I feel and how I'll act.


Yeah, that was definitely stupid. But not surprising. Cheaters do stupid things. My ex-husband responded to an email from his girlfriend and told her that he loved her. I found it accidentally and confronted him. He denied that he really meant it — he was just telling her that not to hurt her feelings because he knew that she loved him. Or some such ****.

You’re the only one who knows if you can stay with him. My guess is that you will because staying always appears to be easier than leaving (I’ve done both and I found leaving, while initially more difficult, was actually the easier choice in the long run). The hardest part about staying, for me, was forever wondering if he really wanted to be with me or just didn’t want a divorce.


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## Beach123

It’s best to stop worrying about how he feels and what he thinks.

do what’s best for you! He obviously isn’t going to do what’s best for you!

he’s proven he will hurt you - I think you deserve better than what he offers you. He can’t be trusted. He’s willing to betray you but won’t make a decision.

time for you to make the tough call.


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## Prodigal

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He wanted ME to make the decision for both of us, and I said, NO.
> If I make it for him, that gives him an excuse to keep stonewalling and do things half assed.


Nope. Sorry. He doesn't need an "excuse" to stonewall just because you don't make a decision. He's been stonewalling for AT LEAST seven months. Okay. So you sit back, twiddle your thumbs, and wait for him to leave. What does that accomplish, realistically? He stays. He maintains his status as good family man. He maintains his status as having a solvent business. He maintains his status as being a cake eater.

DO YOU SEE THAT YOUR LACK OF MAKING A DECISION IS ENABLING HIM TO CONTINUE HIS AFFAIR????????



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> OR if I kick him out, then that solves all sorts of other problems for him and I am not in the mood to continue solving his problems.


Kick him out. This isn't about solving HIS problems. This is about you solving YOURS. Believe it or not, you ARE solving his problems by allowing him to make the decision, and (by default) to stay. I have never, in my almost 10 years on TAM, seen anyone attempt to justify keeping a cheater with them to this extent.

You are letting him off the hook. You are hoping he will see the light. You are hoping he will start treating you with respect. All the while, this man has crapped all over you for at least the past seven months.

If you genuinely want to work on you and have a decent life, you dump this lying cheater. He won't even tell you the details of this affair when you ask? In the name of all that is holy, PLEASE find a grain of self respect that will enable you to get this abusive/cheating/lying man out of your life. Now. Seriously.


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## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> The youngest kid is 20


Is this child ever projected to be self sufficient. Doesn't he have Aspberger's or something? Are you still taking care of his mother or has she passed?

Do NEED to work in the accountant ASAP. Don't trust him to have you or your child's interest during any divorce and many times the new women want to make sure they don't 'give away' too much money so they behave in a manner you wouldn't expect.

Yes with the business and the amount of money involved see more than one lawyer. Also make sure to see any 'sharks' in town as that often times means they can't take your husband as a client.

Also if you son is not expected to ever be independent then make sure child support is included even thought he's of age.

And remember doing these things doesn't stop you from staying together but you really NEED to go do this and stop procrastinating. 
How idiotic to post a 'love' of this woman in a forum he knows has people who know you.


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## Beach123

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> He wanted ME to make the decision for both of us, and I said, NO.
> If I make it for him, that gives him an excuse to keep stonewalling and do things half assed.
> OR if I kick him out, then that solves all sorts of other problems for him and I am not in the mood to continue solving his problems.
> I told him if he wants to work on US, then that has to be a decision he makes because I want to be picked, I do not want to be settled for.


he’s a coward and using you so he ends up not looking like the bad guy.

expose him to ALL his friends and family!


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## Evinrude58

So after 7 months you had to catch him.
I feel so bad for you.

I personally wish you’d go nuclear on him. He is so deserving of having his works torn to pieces. You have that power. I wouid weild it like a sword. You actually have the power to do whatever you want, and to make him do whatever you want. You could even show him what losing half of everything looks like, and happily watch his AP dump him like a load of bricks.

With What he has done, and is continuing to do, I suspect you are going to reach the point of anger. And he will deserve it.


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## sunsetmist

Or he posted his love for his mistress in order to get you to take action and stop waffling... She's probably pushing him now. Do you know her?


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## Beach123

Where does she live? If she is married notify her spouse.


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## Openminded

The truth — the _real_ truth — can be very difficult to find when trying to unravel an affair. Cheaters tend to minimize because it benefits them. Some will admit being in love with their AP but most won’t because most don’t plan on divorcing. They just wanted some fun and excitement and they don’t think anyone will find out. That was true for my ex-husband and it’s probably true for your husband. You were never supposed to know and now that you do, well, what you do about it is the question, isn’t it.


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## Affaircare

@AlmostEmptyNester ,

Again, I am not saying this to be mean-spirited or seek revenge against your husband. I personally believe in being as kind as possible, as often as possible. There truly is no reason for your heart to be harmed further by bitterness and retaliation.

That being said, I wholeheartedly believe in natural consequences of choices. Every single decision we ever make has both a benefit and a cost--even bad decisions. A person who chooses to drink to drunkenness has the benefit of temporarily being numb to a feeling maybe they don't want to face...and the cost is a hangover and probable embarrassment at something they did while drunk. A person who chooses to steal has the benefit of possessing the item they craved...and the cost is either a guilty conscience that adds up to anxiety or being caught, going to jail for a bit, and having to repay society. Right? Natural consequences. Your job is not to "teach him a lesson" or unleash the Krakken and hurt him like he hurt you.

But it is your job, as an adult in a relationship with another adult, to stand out of the way and respect him enough to allow him to experience the natural consequences of his decisions. He DECIDED to commit adultery. Seven months ago, when you first came here and had a feeling something was off, he DECIDED to lie to his life partner (to whom he had made moral and legal commitments). He DECIDED to gaslight you, stonewall you, and allow you to think it was "your fault" while all along, he knew he was committing adultery.

The natural consequence of committing adultery is the complete destruction of the marriage and family unit "as it had been." In real life, even if you two do reconcile, your marriage and your family will never be the same. That's because, even if you swear to never tell your adult kids, THEY KNOW that for the past seven months something has been up between you two! THEY KNOW that things are not loving or patient or kind...shoot it's not even courteous! They aren't idiots--they know there is a problem! What they don't know, is why. Maybe they think they are to blame. Maybe they blame one or the other of you without having facts. But even if you never tell them, THEIR FAMILY IS NOW DIFFERENT and has been harmed and forever changed by adultery. In addition, they learn by watching you and your marriage. They will learn that when there's a problem, the solution is to deny it, cover it up, pretend it's not happening, and tell sort of white-lies... OR they will learn that when there's a problem, the solution is to tell the truth, face it, name it, accept it (even if it's sad or it hurts), and then do the right thing!

The natural consequence of committing adultery is that some of those who are affected and deserve to know the truth, are told THE TRUTH. As an example, the adult kids would be told in appropriate ways because their lives will be changed and affected by this. If one of your children is autistic or developmentally delayed, obviously you tell them in a way that would make sense to their development not their chronological age, but even younger children can be told: "I know that you've noticed mom and dad fighting a lot and pretty seriously. Well, I've found out that dad has a girlfriend, and I believe that mom's and dad's should only love each other. If you want to talk to your dad or ask him questions about what he thinks and believes, that is cool." See? No disparaging. Just stating the truth.

Same for extended family: siblings, parents, those with whom you might celebrate holidays... those folks are possibly going to see 50% less of their own family (nephews, grandkids, etc.) and maybe 100% less of you or your husband! They deserve to know...and they deserve to know more than the bull doodoo like "...well we drifted apart..." Baloney! There was an affair! Note to self, though: it is very, VERY rare that you tell his parents and siblings and they end up on your side "against him" so don't try to play sides or that kind of thing. This isn't about getting people on your side AT ALL!! It's about bringing the real truth to the light of day instead of helping him cheat by hiding his adultery. The relatives will fall where they may, and that's their choice. But give them the dignity of knowing the real truth of why things are happening as they are.

Finally, he doesn't want to divorce because "he couldn't make it alone." He doesn't want to tell you about HER because he has no intention of stopping with her. He wants you to kick him out so you're the bad guy. He wants to do things the EASY way, and that means "can we stay married and pretend this didn't happen (but let me continue)?"...cuz it's easier. Splitting up our assets and the business and the family and the home IS MESSY, but that is what happens when you commit adultery! So here's a thought: what if YOU got a hotel room for a week? What if YOU took an emergency leave of absence from the business "for the foreseeable future" and took time to yourself for yourself to figure out what YOU want? What if you let him be the one to stay home, deal with the home and the kids, figure out the business, hire and train new people, etc. while you take the time you need to figure yourself out?

I mean... you could take the time to see your counselor, to set up attorney appoinments, to set up accountant appointments, to read the laws of your state, and to really reflect, in an UNINTERRUPTED, unmanipulated space. Let HIM deal with the mess he's made (for now). What if you did that?


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## Evinrude58

Seven months ago, when you first came here and had a feeling something was off, he DECIDED to lie to his life partner (to whom he had made moral and legal commitments). H*e DECIDED to gaslight you, stonewall you, and allow you to think it was "your fault" while all along, he knew he was committing adultery.*

THIS. This is what is triggering me in this thread and why I would like to see this guy get burnt. My ex wife did this exact thing to me. It lasted 2 months before I got in this site and for the first time actually considered she might be cheating after I was TOLD that she was by you guys.
I can still feel the burn of anger that’s no longer really at my ex, because I’m just numb toward her. No feelings one way or another. It’s weird.
But it’s there for OP’s husband, lol.

this is my last post on this thread. 

I agree with everything you said AFfaircare, except for one thing: I’d feel better if I was OP and I got a little revenge via the karma train. OP directing the train........ nothing bad about that. He deserves a divorce with cherries on top.


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## Prodigal

Affaircare said:


> ... he doesn't want to divorce because "he couldn't make it alone." He doesn't want to tell you about HER because he has no intention of stopping with her. He wants you to kick him out so you're the bad guy. He wants to do things the EASY way, and that means "can we stay married and pretend this didn't happen (but let me continue)?"...cuz it's easier.


^^THIS^^ is what the OP needs to hear. While I am very sorry that OP's husband treated her so shabbily, at this point it is incumbent on HER to take a hard stand on this and tell husband, in no uncertain terms, to pound sand.


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## Beach123

How convenient that he uses you to keep his home life orderly for him while he travels and does whatever he want to do!

stop doing anything for him! Make him move!

he can do his own laundry, errands and Cooking.

just stop making his life easy when he has betrayed you!

I’d also start separating money and credit cards so you don’t get left being responsible for anything he spends money on in the near future.

he uses you because you allow it.


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## Hopeful Cynic

It's hard to have your world turned upside-down, to discover that the person who is supposed to have your back against the world is the one sticking a knife in it. And doesn't want to stop.

It feels like your life is spiraling out of control while you wait for him to come to his senses and make the right decision. But it's an illusion. YOU have the control. If he's not 100% all-in on the marriage, don't stay married to him. Who wants a husband who isn't all in? You don't need to pretend to be strong while you wait for him to choose between her or you. He already chose you 24 years ago, and if he's not repeating that choice now, he's chosen against you. He just hasn't figured out a way to let you know that won't make him feel guilty.

He's using you because he's afraid to be alone. He's not a loving and supportive partner. He's using you to maintain his lifestyle because his own actions are busy trashing it. He's soaking up your devotion to the marriage while he tries to figure out how to leave you for another woman and not look like the bad guy.

If he's not all in, the marriage is long over. If he's too afraid of the hit to his reputation to give you the respect of a making a clean break, you'll have to do it yourself. But, it will be the last thing you have to take charge of.

Take some time, maybe with your counsellor. Look back at all his actions in this new light, and notice what makes perfect sense now. He's been angry because he was stuck being husband to you when he would have preferred talking to this other woman. He's been distant because he's thinking of her and when he can see her next. He's been dissatisfied with his life because he's been dreaming of something better with her. He's been impatient and curt with you because he's comparing your boring familiarity to the new energy excitement of the other woman.

Next time he says he doesn't know what he wants to do, pack his bag for him and set him on his way. You have spent the last half year waiting for him to come to his senses, and he's been continuing this deception. At any of those times you asked him what was going on, he could have had an epiphany moment, realized he still wanted the marriage, and dumped the other woman. The fact that this didn't happen any of those times tells you that he doesn't want the marriage. His hemming and hawing now is just over the fact that he can't figure out a way to TELL you he doesn't want the marriage without feeling like the bad guy. He no longer cares about your feelings; he just doesn't like SEEING them.

His best case scenario was to have this other relationship on the side for a while, do the boring but expected parenting and working duties with you, and have an exciting intimate relationship with her. He could have taken his time laying the groundwork for the marriage to slowly die off mutually, or to convince you to give up on him and end the marriage yourself so he could look like the victim. Now that things are out in the open, his agenda has been pushed up, so he's going to waffle for as long as possible, to try to keep you dangling on the hook, to try to keep the double life situation he had going on for as long as he can pull it off. He'll tell you "he needs time, don't pressure him, he's fragile right now, he doesn't know what to do, he'll think about it later, he has work now, let's not make decisions until son is stable," all ******** designed to give him more time to get himself that victimhood he wants. He didn't want to get rid of you until the path to transfer to her was more established.

Just say "I'm glad I found out, good to know all my efforts for the marriage were being wasted, now I can plan for the rest of my life." And then, you know, plan for the rest of your life. See that lawyer and accountant, reduce your hours, put in your notice at work, look for new work, divide your bank accounts, etc, whatever you need to extricate yourself from his life. Don't leave the house though. He's the one with one foot out the door who is hardly there anyway.

Because I guarantee you, he's not trying to decide between you and this other woman. He's not trying to choose between his wife and his new love. He's already decided to have both. He's trying to have the other woman while not looking like an asshole. He's trying to have the other woman but not blow his life up yet. He's trying to finish using you up while he sets up the next relationship so he doesn't have an awkward middle stage in between.

Good luck. I suggest you seek out Chump Lady because she's full of great advice for rebuilding your life after a cheater rips it up and spits it out.


----------



## AlmostEmptyNester

Affaircare said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester ,
> 
> Again, I am not saying this to be mean-spirited or seek revenge against your husband. I personally believe in being as kind as possible, as often as possible. There truly is no reason for your heart to be harmed further by bitterness and retaliation.
> 
> That being said, I wholeheartedly believe in natural consequences of choices. Every single decision we ever make has both a benefit and a cost--even bad decisions. A person who chooses to drink to drunkenness has the benefit of temporarily being numb to a feeling maybe they don't want to face...and the cost is a hangover and probable embarrassment at something they did while drunk. A person who chooses to steal has the benefit of possessing the item they craved...and the cost is either a guilty conscience that adds up to anxiety or being caught, going to jail for a bit, and having to repay society. Right? Natural consequences. Your job is not to "teach him a lesson" or unleash the Krakken and hurt him like he hurt you.
> 
> But it is your job, as an adult in a relationship with another adult, to stand out of the way and respect him enough to allow him to experience the natural consequences of his decisions. He DECIDED to commit adultery. Seven months ago, when you first came here and had a feeling something was off, he DECIDED to lie to his life partner (to whom he had made moral and legal commitments). He DECIDED to gaslight you, stonewall you, and allow you to think it was "your fault" while all along, he knew he was committing adultery.
> 
> The natural consequence of committing adultery is the complete destruction of the marriage and family unit "as it had been." In real life, even if you two do reconcile, your marriage and your family will never be the same. That's because, even if you swear to never tell your adult kids, THEY KNOW that for the past seven months something has been up between you two! THEY KNOW that things are not loving or patient or kind...shoot it's not even courteous! They aren't idiots--they know there is a problem! What they don't know, is why. Maybe they think they are to blame. Maybe they blame one or the other of you without having facts. But even if you never tell them, THEIR FAMILY IS NOW DIFFERENT and has been harmed and forever changed by adultery. In addition, they learn by watching you and your marriage. They will learn that when there's a problem, the solution is to deny it, cover it up, pretend it's not happening, and tell sort of white-lies... OR they will learn that when there's a problem, the solution is to tell the truth, face it, name it, accept it (even if it's sad or it hurts), and then do the right thing!
> 
> The natural consequence of committing adultery is that some of those who are affected and deserve to know the truth, are told THE TRUTH. As an example, the adult kids would be told in appropriate ways because their lives will be changed and affected by this. If one of your children is autistic or developmentally delayed, obviously you tell them in a way that would make sense to their development not their chronological age, but even younger children can be told: "I know that you've noticed mom and dad fighting a lot and pretty seriously. Well, I've found out that dad has a girlfriend, and I believe that mom's and dad's should only love each other. If you want to talk to your dad or ask him questions about what he thinks and believes, that is cool." See? No disparaging. Just stating the truth.
> 
> Same for extended family: siblings, parents, those with whom you might celebrate holidays... those folks are possibly going to see 50% less of their own family (nephews, grandkids, etc.) and maybe 100% less of you or your husband! They deserve to know...and they deserve to know more than the bull doodoo like "...well we drifted apart..." Baloney! There was an affair! Note to self, though: it is very, VERY rare that you tell his parents and siblings and they end up on your side "against him" so don't try to play sides or that kind of thing. This isn't about getting people on your side AT ALL!! It's about bringing the real truth to the light of day instead of helping him cheat by hiding his adultery. The relatives will fall where they may, and that's their choice. But give them the dignity of knowing the real truth of why things are happening as they are.
> 
> Finally, he doesn't want to divorce because "he couldn't make it alone." He doesn't want to tell you about HER because he has no intention of stopping with her. He wants you to kick him out so you're the bad guy. He wants to do things the EASY way, and that means "can we stay married and pretend this didn't happen (but let me continue)?"...cuz it's easier. Splitting up our assets and the business and the family and the home IS MESSY, but that is what happens when you commit adultery! So here's a thought: what if YOU got a hotel room for a week? What if YOU took an emergency leave of absence from the business "for the foreseeable future" and took time to yourself for yourself to figure out what YOU want? What if you let him be the one to stay home, deal with the home and the kids, figure out the business, hire and train new people, etc. while you take the time you need to figure yourself out?
> 
> I mean... you could take the time to see your counselor, to set up attorney appoinments, to set up accountant appointments, to read the laws of your state, and to really reflect, in an UNINTERRUPTED, unmanipulated space. Let HIM deal with the mess he's made (for now). What if you did that?



This really really speaks to me. I have been contemplating something along these lines. I have been contemplating putting in my resignation at work. I'm still an owner of the company, but there is NO contract anywhere that says I have to work for the company. My only obligation was that of an investor.
I have wanted to just GET AWAY, let him worry about where I am for once. (or not worry)
I have been honest with the kids, they ALL KNOW something is up with their Dad. They have all seen me be mostly gracious and dedicated and towing the line. I AM THE ONE TAKING CARE OF IT ALL and they see that. In that regard I feel like I have set a good example, one of integrity. 

I told him that he has had NO consequences for his behavior, and he looked so puzzled. REALLY??? REALLY???

His first wife cheated on him and we dealt with the fall out from that for years of our marriage, how could he turn around and do this to me knowing how much it hurt him and how much it affected him down the line. 

I really like your idea, I think it's exactly what I need to take back some of my power.


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## Openminded

He was able to cheat on you after having been cheated on in his first marriage because cheaters are really, really selfish. They don’t think about the impact on anyone else because they don’t plan to get caught. And when they are, they don’t usually relate their past pain to their spouse’s current pain. That’s just how they are. They do what they want to do.

You thought you knew him but you didn’t. You didn’t think he would do this but he did. Everyone who’s cheated on feels the breath-taking shock of betrayal. We never forget it and we shouldn’t. There’s also a strong lesson in there. Now you know what he’s capable of. Never again trust him to the level that you did before.

The reason posters bring up cheating as the likely reason for questionable behavior is because it‘s so often true. You’re not the first poster not to want to believe it. None of us did either. But it’s better to know than to wonder. Now you can plan, one way or the other, for your future without worrying if you were going too far with your thoughts of something wrong and overreacting to something that was likely minor. You weren’t and it wasn’t.


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## Beach123

So just take off and leave him while he is home for a few days.

you don’t owe him any info right now.


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## Violet28

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I have wanted to just GET AWAY, let him worry about where I am for once.


One of the best trips I ever took was just getting in my car and driving, with no clear destination. I picked south and drove until the road disappeared. I ended up in Galveston for a week. I sat in the sun and read, walked on the beach, got a hotel room with a view of the gulf, shopped and tried not to think about anything.

There's something so peaceful about the waves and the water. I understand how people can leave their lives behind and go live on island somewhere, it's hard to come back to reality.


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## Beach123

And when you return from that time away - do NOT do one single thing to make his life any easier!
Let him do his laundry! Let him organize everything! Let him make his meals and eat alone! Stop doing anything!
The man has treated you terribly and shouldn’t have one single benefit of having you around him!


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## 3Xnocharm

@AlmostEmptyNester how are you doing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## theloveofmylife

I hate that you're going through this. You seem like a nice person. 

But, I think you have to stop giving him the benefit of the doubt, in any way.



AlmostEmptyNester said:


> I told him if he wants to work on US, then that has to be a decision he makes because I want to be picked, I do not want to be settled for.


Read this.


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## 3Xnocharm

@AlmostEmptyNester, how are you doing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mr.Married

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> If It were someone else's post, I would be thinking that poor lady is in denial. LOL. I get it. I talked with a close friend today, actually a few. One has known us over 12 years and agrees that she just can't see him having an affair, he's got (or had) integrity and standards for himself.


It always comes back around ......


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## AlmostEmptyNester

3Xnocharm said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester, how are you doing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks for asking after me. I am actually doing really well.
not so brief update: I did not kick him out or leave or resign at work.
I asked him to work on the marriage and cut all ties with the AP. I also told him I was not going to bring her up again or check his phone and emails etc, there is no dignity in that for me. My thought was that the less oxygen I gave her, the better. (I also figured out by my own deductions that she was probably not a factor in his decision because she probably called things off already. That's the thing that makes the most sense.) He reluctantly agreed to work on US, stating that he did not know what he wanted and maintained that he thought it wouldn't work because I would never get over his betrayal (that was his issue in his first marriage) and he also said that he was trying to rekindle his feelings for me (basically saying he loves me but he's not in love with me.) 
Fine. I carried on. Those are his issues, not mine.
We slowly slowly slowly made positive steps. He started coming out of his depression and I began working on a lot of my anger and resentments from before all this started. I drew boundaries at work and threw energy into my friendships and my interests. If there was something I wanted to do, like a weekend trip with my family, I said yes and made it happen. I began volunteering and meeting new people. I focused on being the best version of me that I could be, I continue to do work on my self-growth.
He tries to make me happy on a regular basis. This past weekend he finished installing a new dishwasher and unclogged some drain lines around the house. He cooked and cleaned, folded my laundry, and helped me with some of my projects. We've been on multiple trips together, including work trips and trips just for fun. If he gets snippy or short, it is followed almost immediately with an apology. An unsolicited apology. 
All that said, I still don't view us as reconciling. I view him as moving through his mid life crisis and out of his depression, and still trying to figure out what he wants. I view this as an illness. After 24 years together, I'm not throwing in the towel due to a horrible year or two. Well, 2021 was an improvement over 2020 for sure. 
I am much calmer.
At some point he will either be ALL IN or he won't, and I get to decide when I've had enough. As things steadily improve, I see that the potential for full reconciliation is higher vs. me throwing in the towel. I've come into some money, so that is a weight off my shoulders should I ever need it, it's in the bank. 
I think a lot of you view me as a doormat, but I view myself as a stander, standing for things and values that I hold important. Just because I have been non-reactive, does not mean I have been passive. 
I have been surrounded by people who support me and focused my energies and resources on the things that work me towards my vision. I hope you all are doing well and I appreciate everyone's support when I was a hot mess in 2020.


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## 3Xnocharm

You see yourself as a “stander” to justify your decision to stay with a man who has betrayed you, crapped all over your marriage, and who isnt in love with you. He’s going along to get along, to meet his own agenda and for some reason, you’re going along with it. You’re making excuses for him with the whole depression and mid life crisis angle. I just can’t wrap my brain around why you don’t want better for yourself than this. You most certainly DESERVE better. 

Thank you for sharing an update with us, and I know it may not sound like it, but I want the best for you and hope you find your way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AlmostEmptyNester

3Xnocharm said:


> You see yourself as a “stander” to justify your decision to stay with a man who has betrayed you, crapped all over your marriage, and who isnt in love with you. He’s going along to get along, to meet his own agenda and for some reason, you’re going along with it. You’re making excuses for him with the whole depression and mid life crisis angle. I just can’t wrap my brain around why you don’t want better for yourself than this. You most certainly DESERVE better.
> 
> Thank you for sharing an update with us, and I know it may not sound like it, but I want the best for you and hope you find your way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you. 

Not every betrayal needs to be responded with discarding the betrayer. It's OK to forgive to people for their transgressions. In fact, the forgiveness is for me, not him. He might not be in love with me, however, I am hopeful that we will fully reconcile, and he will be in love with me once again. I fully believe that for years he loved me in an unhealthy way due to his attachment style, and he doesn't recognize healthy love and won't until he's worked through some things. He may never reach that point, and then I will have to reevaluate, however, right now I know what I want and it shapes all my decisions and makes it simple (not easy, there's a difference).

He could very well go the opposite direction and eventually leave me, that is also a possibility, but I will have no regrets. He's not a horrible person, he's a good person who made some bad choices and he's acted selfishly and broken the trust we had. There is NO excuse for that, I'm not making excuses for him. He was depressed. Was he depressed because he felt trapped and not important and taken for granted? Maybe. Was he depressed because he was lying and betraying me and he realized he was making horrible choices? Maybe. Was he depressed because he's emotionally immature and can't process his own feelings because men of his age were raised to be stoic? Maybe. Was he depressed because he hates his vocation and is tired of taking care of everyone? Maybe. Was he depressed because of the pandemic? Maybe.

Having empathy and trying to understand where someone is coming from doesn't mean making excuses for their behavior. It means acknowledging that we are all human and we make decisions based on our experiences and perceptions. We have been married 25 years, we have created a life together. I want to break the cycle of divorce in our families and be an example for my grown children of what real commitment looks like. It's not about what I deserve or what I'm afraid of, it's about NOT being part of the throw-away culture.


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## AVR1962

Our stories are VERY similar. As I read your original post my thoughts were that he was either involved in an emotional affair, caught up in an infatuation, or having an affair. I too was married for 24 years and ex did the very same thing as you described in your posts. His anger turned towards me, he would not talk, he avoided me. I did like you and went about my life. You cannot get anything from an unwilling partner. It finally came to a head, we really did not recover and I eventually filed for divorce. I reached a point where I absolutely despised the man. We have been divorced 5 years and as I reflect I know I stayed way longer than I should have but I did not want to tear up my family. If you can truly move on as a couple and be happy with each other, great. Don't stay for the children or out of fear for your future.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

AVR1962 said:


> Our stories are VERY similar. As I read your original post my thoughts were that he was either involved in an emotional affair, caught up in an infatuation, or having an affair. I too was married for 24 years and ex did the very same thing as you described in your posts. His anger turned towards me, he would not talk, he avoided me. I did like you and went about my life. You cannot get anything from an unwilling partner. It finally came to a head, we really did not recover and I eventually filed for divorce. I reached a point where I absolutely despised the man. We have been divorced 5 years and as I reflect I know I stayed way longer than I should have but I did not want to tear up my family. If you can truly move on as a couple and be happy with each other, great. Don't stay for the children or out of fear for your future.


Thank you, I agree. For me, I feel like a lot of how things played out had to do with our specific circumstances and our personalities, how we were raised etc. Timing was everything. Had I asked him to work on US sooner, it would have been a flop. I think she had already 'dumped' him or they had determined it wasn't going to work. I did not focus on conversation, heart to heart talks, or berating him for his idiocy. In fact, we agreed to shelve relationship talks or rather I offered and he thought we agreed. Honestly when I look back at some of our conversations, all I can do is laugh. One time I asked him if we could have a weekly board game night and his answer was, "that feels like a commitment" WHAT?!?! Having kids, houses, investments, businesses together, those aren't but a game night is? I recall laughing out loud at him when he said it and him looking sheepish.

Anyway, he's willing for now and there are improvements almost daily. Time will tell.

I am not staying for the kids as in they are all older than 21. 
I am not staying out of fear either. Fear based motives never really last.


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## Anastasia6

AlmostEmptyNester said:


> Thank you, I agree. For me, I feel like a lot of how things played out had to do with our specific circumstances and our personalities, how we were raised etc. Timing was everything. Had I asked him to work on US sooner, it would have been a flop. I think she had already 'dumped' him or they had determined it wasn't going to work. I did not focus on conversation, heart to heart talks, or berating him for his idiocy. In fact, we agreed to shelve relationship talks or rather I offered and he thought we agreed. Honestly when I look back at some of our conversations, all I can do is laugh. One time I asked him if we could have a weekly board game night and his answer was, "that feels like a commitment" WHAT?!?! Having kids, houses, investments, businesses together, those aren't but a game night is? I recall laughing out loud at him when he said it and him looking sheepish.
> 
> Anyway, he's willing for now and there are improvements almost daily. Time will tell.
> 
> I am not staying for the kids as in they are all older than 21.
> I am not staying out of fear either. Fear based motives never really last.


It seems you have made up your mind and for now it's working for you. I think you too will come to a place of reconciliation or you being done. If you aren't ready to part then working on you and the relationship is a good choice. Sitting around mad never solves anything. I have a long happy marriage and cheating is deal breaker for me but it doesn't mean I wouldn't think about reconciliation or forgiveness. You are right the good times when so plentiful changes things. If my husband had cheated early in the first 15 years I have no doubt I'd left him in the dust. Now at 28 years I'd have to consider everything in it's totality. 

The most important thing is you feel good about what you are doing. You are working on self improvement. You may get to a point that you are ready to let go. Or he may get to a point that he realizes what a fool he's been. I'm so proud of you for picking your own path.


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## BeyondRepair007

@AlmostEmptyNester 
I read your thread today for the first time. I hesitated for a long time whether to add to your thread. But here it goes.

I really wish I had been on TAM when you started it because I would have had some things to say
I was exactly in your husbands shoes once (many many years ago).

Don't hate me, I'm reformed and a different person now.
I'm quite ashamed of who I was and the things I did. Christ guides me now, I was lost and a horrible person then.

I behaved and talked almost identically to your husband. 
Judging from your posts, I could have recited your conversations with him to you ahead of time.

I was involved (EA\PA) with another woman and was actively trying to get my wife angry enough to want D.

This was intentional and part of my plan.
My AP knew the plan and was waiting for me to complete it.
I was despicable.

As I read your thread, I knew exactly where it was going, it just took a long time to get there.
What he did to you then wasn't simple disconnecting, what he did to you was intentional and meant to destroy.

I wish I had been on TAM to let you hear my voice. Things might have turned out better? Or at least given you another voice to consider?

Anyway, I'm genuinely sorry that there are guys like your hubby (including then-me).

I wish you the best in reconciliation. I eventually changed, maybe he did too.
Then-me would have found it exceedingly difficult to go back to my wife and R.
Then-me simply didn't love her enough to make sacrifices like that.

I would only caution you to not trust a word he says for a very long time.
Guys like him/then-me... we try to change your heart, change your love, change your life, by understanding what drives you and twisting it to our ends. Manipulation.
Our motives and words are _not_ to be trusted.

I only add to this thread now in the hopes it might add some clarity about him for you going forward. And from this, you can be more aware while in R.

Perhaps he has had a come-to-Jesus moment and has changed.
I really hope that's the case and you have a wonderful rest of your life with him.
You deserve it.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

BeyondRepair007 said:


> @AlmostEmptyNester
> I read your thread today for the first time. I hesitated for a long time whether to add to your thread. But here it goes.
> 
> I really wish I had been on TAM when you started it because I would have had some things to say
> I was exactly in your husbands shoes once (many many years ago).
> 
> Don't hate me, I'm reformed and a different person now.
> I'm quite ashamed of who I was and the things I did. Christ guides me now, I was lost and a horrible person then.
> 
> I behaved and talked almost identically to your husband.
> Judging from your posts, I could have recited your conversations with him to you ahead of time.
> 
> I was involved (EA\PA) with another woman and was actively trying to get my wife angry enough to want D.
> 
> This was intentional and part of my plan.
> My AP knew the plan and was waiting for me to complete it.
> I was despicable.
> 
> As I read your thread, I knew exactly where it was going, it just took a long time to get there.
> What he did to you then wasn't simple disconnecting, what he did to you was intentional and meant to destroy.
> 
> I wish I had been on TAM to let you hear my voice. Things might have turned out better? Or at least given you another voice to consider?
> 
> Anyway, I'm genuinely sorry that there are guys like your hubby (including then-me).
> 
> I wish you the best in reconciliation. I eventually changed, maybe he did too.
> Then-me would have found it exceedingly difficult to go back to my wife and R.
> Then-me simply didn't love her enough to make sacrifices like that.
> 
> I would only caution you to not trust a word he says for a very long time.
> Guys like him/then-me... we try to change your heart, change your love, change your life, by understanding what drives you and twisting it to our ends. Manipulation.
> Our motives and words are _not_ to be trusted.
> 
> I only add to this thread now in the hopes it might add some clarity about him for you going forward. And from this, you can be more aware while in R.
> 
> Perhaps he has had a come-to-Jesus moment and has changed.
> I really hope that's the case and you have a wonderful rest of your life with him.
> You deserve it.


Thank you for your input and words. I hear you on the 'trust' advice and will be cautious. 
I do think he would have been relieved had I decided to kick him out, and I recognized it and decided against that, I was not going to make any decisions for him or help him share the "blame" for breaking up. It is entirely possible that he's still lying and trying to manipulate me and/or the situation, but we attract what we focus on, so I'm not sitting around focusing on the "what if's" or the possible negative energy. I am not the same person I was in March of 2020, and I will most likely always have a guarded part of my heart, a small part that can't trust like I used to.

You know he has been suspicious that my changes were a form of manipulation, so perhaps it takes one to know one? 

I appreciate your honesty. Looking back at my posts, from day one I knew, I just couldn't believe he was capable, I was also wrapped up in a lot of my own resentment towards him from other things. I have had a lot of anger to work through and still have more to sort out.

I do not think he has had that moment you speak of, the come-to-Jesus, like I said before, it's possible that one day he's going to turn to me and say, "I've really tried, but it's not working." HOWEVER, I am choosing to focus on the positive while knowing there are other less desirable outcomes out there, but then, that is life. There are no guarantees.


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## ThatDarnGuy!

I am so sorry for what you are going through. You might have said it at some point, but how old is he?

Has he ever had his testosterone tested? I ask this because low testosterone will change almost everything about a man. Low testosterone is what causes the famous grumpy man condition. Or the guy who loses interest in sex and about everything else other than grumbling about something in front of the tv while in his recliner. 

I developed low testosterone. I quit caring about sex, hobbies, friends, how she felt, and myself. I became depressed and all I wanted to do was sit and nap after work and on the weekends. I got to where I was constantly grumbling that she wasn't doing enough. She could have sat nude next to me and it would do nothing.

My testosterone was not even high enough to be sufficient for a 100 year old guy. Once I started therapy, I was mostly back to my old normal self in a few months.


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## AlmostEmptyNester

Also wanted to add that my son is doing really well.


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