# Sexual imprinting - can wife be seen as sibling?



## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

Sorry to clutter up the forums here, but I'm struggling to get a handle on my problem. I've been reading about the Westermarck Effect, whereby siblings under the age of 6 are somehow imprinted to reject one another sexually.

I'm wondering if somehow this same mechanism can occur between two non-related adults? Is it possible my wife and I, due to accidents and circumstances, have chemically switched each other off, or built a natural immunity to one another?

We have been married 11 years, and the sex was never passionate or driven - we didn't click from the beginning, so we let our frequency slide and now its just not interesting. Actually its worse, because when we force it upon ourselves, 3 minutes into sex I find myself rejecting what I'm doing, and immediately go flacid. She asks what she can do different, and I have no good answer ( but privately I just think BE someone else? ). We love each other dearly, but there is zero sexual magnetism, even a push-away factor. I wouldn't say we are _in _love.

On the other hand I have a raging libido, it just seems to be directed at other women and not my wife. I'm trying to understand the psychological and physical foundation for this. I'd like to know if it can be fixed as a practical matter before I escalate the issue to her consciousness and go into counseling. I know smell is an important component of sex. When I am around other women, my libido lights up like a Christmas tree, but when I smell my wife, everything shuts down. I can only imagine there is some chemical basis to this?


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

In fact I think I can pin this down further.

From the beginning my wife has been sexually inhibited, and expressed no desire to engage certain activities, like oral or anal sex, we never had a habit to sit and kiss. She doesn't like the way things taste, other things are off limits. I on the other hand I guess am looking for a more total experience and over the years have simply trained my mind to accept that I will not get what I want, and that any sex I do have doesn't come with total physical acceptance. This is psychologically important to my "success" in the activity. I just can't have sex with a woman that isn't turned on. I'd make a horrible Viking haha. Somehow I've built barriers in my mind that has relegated my wife into some category that is not a sexual option. I'm just not sure how I can tweak my mind to feel sexual attraction again any more than I can force myself to get aroused looking at a piece of furniture.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I don't want to immediately veer off hte subject but related to our sibling experience, I read a "pop psychology" article years ago that said success in relationships was determined by your birth order.

That is, an older brother should marry a younger sister (different families obviously) because our first interactions with the opposite sex at our age group are our siblings and relationship dynamics are formed based on that.

My stb-x and I are both "older siblings" with younger ones. . .probably wasn't a good match as each tried to vie for dominance in the relationship. I, on the other hand, am now dating a "baby sister" and we seem to be really compatible, even though she's 9 years older (I still act like big brother). 

I have seen this "pop psychology" theory seem to prove out - my best man in my wedding is happily married for 15 years and the "little brother" and his wife is the "older sister."

Anyway, you seem to have a hard time "sexualizing" your wife and that's what is making you go flaccid. That's a toughie. . .I would try to start with something simple like "naked Sundays" (if you dont have kids) and just have her walk around naked in the house and you get to be visual with her body and fantasize. It may let her be comfortable with her own sexuality.

However, really. . .a sex therapist may be in order here for both of you - sometimes it's hot to have the "wifey" and sometimes it's hot to have a "naughty girl." You may be somewhat fixated on getting something naughty . . .not sure.

No solutions - just putitng out food for thought. Good luck.


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

We are both only children, so there is some data for your theory.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Yeah, I can't recall what the article said about only children other than perhaps you may have adopted a big or little brother role based on a cousin or some other interaction (a friend, being an uncle, etc.) - basically, it said what all psychologists say - your formative years are powerful.

Maybe it means you aren't sure of each other's role in the relationship???? (just taking wild stabs on pop psychology)


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

It may have something to do with the circumstances of our marriage. We were penpals and she was in a foreign country. Our courtship amounted to 4 months spent abroad, spread over 2 years. I think if we had dated, there would have been more compatibility and chemical matching going on, but for all practical purposes our marriage was no better than an arranged one. We have an ongoing joke : she thinks I proposed to her, I think she proposed to me. Married 11 years by "accident." Sex was never stellar and hasn't improved over time. I don't think the magical thing was present in the beginning, and I don't know how to manufacture it now. Falling in love certainly opened my eyes to what I was missing, made me anxious and unsettled, and this is why I'm here, its just tragic that it wasnt my wife I fell in love with. I don't know what to do. I don't want to bring down the walls around us, and had actually come to the conclusion my self-respect was worth sacrificing and that I would cheat if given the chance, but I haven't yet and so I'm trying to solve this the "right" way. We promised each other at the beginning that if we were ever set to cheat on one another we'd dissolve the marriage first, and I still think thats fair.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

The Westermarck Effect is more to say, even to assume it is a correct theory, a weaker response than to believe it would happen to those not even related. 

Even to those who are related, most often there is some sexual attraction although for healthy structures it repressed socially, and when it occurs it is in most countries the crime of incest and taboo.

This is not to say, something "chemical" may or may not be going on, on this it is probably safe to assume such as the basis for human emotion.

But my bet would be there is some structure not attended to in your relationship, to see that if your woman is trying to lead you, and you see her as a big sister, or a mother, well, that is not attractive to most men. 

And this is not to even mention that if she is viewing you as follower her, as a younger brother or even a child, well ABSOLUTELY NOT is this attractive to the woman.

So this question is here: Where could there be resentment buried in the relationship?

Resentment is the sure fire sexual attraction killer, and is often buried or hidden for some reason or another.

Maybe even that you are resenting her for not fulfilling the sexual fantasies and appetites in your imaginations, and from either insecurity or laziness did you allow your relationship with your woman develop to that of roomates, and yes this is much like the brother and sister feeling.

So in your imaginations, when you are on fire for some woman, what is the scenario? 

Search your sexual fantasies, more often than not sexual fantasies speak to what we are most desiring, or most needing, in our real world relationships.

I wish you well.


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

I may have resented her in the beginning, but this has taken a back-seat as our relationship progressed and transformed into, as I said, acceptance that I'm never going to be satisfied by this woman in the ways that I need. There are simply some ( or several ) things she doesn't like, and I have respected those limits. I do care for her, and I say I love her, I just don't want her in the very vital sense that's necessary for a happy marriage. *shrugs*

If I were to psychoanalyze myself, I think I'm probably dredging here for someone to just confirm my suspicions, that the relationship can't work, and with this objective knowledge I might be able to subdue the cowardly part of me that has prevented me from addressing this for 11 years. The issue is that once I take the lid off, things could cascade and I just need to be mentally prepared. I would almost be ecstatic if she just herself fell in love with someone else, because it would make the transition a piece of cake.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Mmm.

Well, what may be an albatross to you, may be an opportunity.

Look. . .I get what you are saying - essentially, you aren't attracted to your wife you married and it's affecting things in the bedroom.

But is she unattractive? (like 432 pounds unattractive?)

If not, why not try to be friends with benefits with in the marriage - fantasize about other people during sex - it's kinda okay and expected.

Maybe you just need to relax with these feelings you are having (maybe both) and "cheat in mind" but not in body?


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## ducky (Feb 17, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> Mmm.
> 
> Well, what may be an albatross to you, may be an opportunity.
> 
> ...


This sounds too much like "settling" to me. You deserve to have an intimate vibrant partner and if she is not the one, she is not the one. I would get very clear about what you would miss if the relationship were over, if it isn't much, move on, if it is more than you want to give up try to work on it, just remember a relationship can't heal with only one partner working, it really takes two. 

Have you talked to her about it? What does she say?


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh she isn't unattractive by any means, trying to see her from another man's point of view. I've been fantasizing about other people from the onset of the marriage, and in the last year we've integrated porn into the experience, but even then I go flacid 2 or 3 minutes in. I can take a viagra and force an erection, labor for half an hour, than then fail from exhaustion. On the other hand, I can gratify myself in 5 minutes using the same material, sans viagra, with my wife not in the house. Its complicated. The last 6 times we've had sex ( about a years worth ) it has been for the purpose of "making babies". Its not simply a matter of disinterest, somehow I'm rejecting the experience. This is why I'm thinking about things like "imprinting" and chemistry.



ducky said:


> Have you talked to her about it? What does she say?


She is foreign born and has traveled out of the country for a few months. It has given me some time to introspect and probably enabled me practically to fall in love. I stare at her photo and I am not sure how I feel, whether I miss her, or if my discomfort is purely to do with anxiety over mounting the discussion and tearing down the life we built together. I just know something must give and soon. I can't have a baby with my partner if I can't be happy with her.


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

I have a good few weeks yet to think about this. I'm not going to engage her in this conversation while she's out of the country.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Why would you try to have a child with a woman you don't love and may well soon divorce?



diaxis said:


> I have a good few weeks yet to think about this. I'm not going to engage her in this conversation while she's out of the country.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Yes, I know the fantasizing is "settling" but I guess I am trying to give him ideas to get the "juices" flowing so he finally does get into her, you know?

Kinda fake it til you make it?

No, I wouldn't advocate constantly fantasizing about your partner forever and ever every time.

Speaking from a guy perspective too. . .I'd lay off the porn - it's like the old quiz question:

What's the biggest male sex organ in the body? The brain. Go ahead and fantasize but not with the visual crutch. It can desensitize your big sex organ.


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Why would you try to have a child with a woman you don't love and may well soon divorce?


That's what I'm trying to flesh out here because its difficult to be objective about my own circumstance. If the chances are slim I'd be able establish with my wife something that I have _never _felt for her after 11 years, then maybe I should bite the bullet and call it quits before we broaden the mistake. I love this woman BUT in the manner of a sibling - I would be perfectly happy if she up and left as long as she wasn't emotionally crushed. From my vantage I believe we both need out, and fresh chances while we're both reasonably young and her child-bearing years haven't entirely elapsed. I already feel guilt for having monopolized her best years. But I don't want to impregnate her out of duty. The last 3 or 4 times we tried, it was like a friggin science experiment. I can't pull it off and my subconscious is saying No.



Scannerguard said:


> No, I wouldn't advocate constantly fantasizing about your partner forever and ever every time.


Gotcha. I've never EVER been have orgasm before focusing on being with her. I just thought it was normal to think about anyone else.


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

The biggest sexual organ is certainly not "the brain". The Limbic System perhaps, but not the Neo-Cortex.

Trust the wisdom of your body. It knows not to have sex with this woman.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

diaxis said:


> From the beginning my wife has been sexually inhibited, and expressed no desire to engage certain activities, like oral or anal sex, we never had a habit to sit and kiss. She doesn't like the way things taste, other things are off limits. I on the other hand I guess am looking for a more total experience and over the years *have simply trained my mind to accept that I will not get what I want*, and that any sex I do have doesn't come with total physical acceptance. This is psychologically important to my "success" in the activity.


Your problem is in bold. To explain....you're at work, you feel hungry, but you can't eat. Same the next day, and the next. In two weeks time you will not feel hungry at work because it's imprinted in your mind that you can't eat there. Your mind represses that need and you don't feel hunger anymore. Same with attraction, you personally may want to but your lower parts have been trained to hear 'no' when it comes to sex with your wife so they respond accordingly. This is, like you said, why we aren't attracted to our siblings or parents (well, according to some psychologists we are all along but we repress it). 

I started out with your problem....and i thought it would never get fixed. In my case what solved it was a few very very weird experiences. First off the threat of an affair (more in my head than in reality) that lead to depression, secondly i realized one day that i became completely wet over a guy that looked exactly like my husband (who for a few seconds i thought was my husband). That made me curious why i'd lust over a person exactly like him but not him! (i was hot over any other guy on the planet but for him at the time, even men considerably less atractive than him). Answer was 'have simply trained my mind to accept that I will not get what I want' and every time i tried to fantasize about him i got 'yes honey but i'm really not in the mood'. I knew i either couldn't have him, or if i did it was the same sex which i didn't want at all because *it didn't please me*. I eventually realized that since it's my fantasies....he doesn't have the right to say he's not in the mood...in my head. :rofl:

The more i fantasized about him the more i started seing him like a man the less i saw him like a brother and attraction kicked in big time. The more i fantasized the easier it was for me to realize that i was being passive in the sex too, and that by being more open, fun, experimental (which i was but just not with him), i dragged him along and made it more pleasant for him as well, hence i didn't hear 'no' all the time but more of a 'not now' followed by sex in one-two days' time. I also had a problem with his 'passivity' and him not appearing like he's enjoying. When i started hitting the right buttons in him, he started appearing more arroused, we literaly started tearing cothes off of eachother and breaking stuff around :| This started happening about a couple of months ago so it's really not a stable thing so i am not sure if everything has worked itself out yet. 


> but when I smell my wife, everything shuts down. I can only imagine there is some chemical basis to this?


Had this too. It would repell me, literaly. He was the last person on earth i'd want to have sex with. He didn't smell 'bad' as in low hygene. It was just chemically wrong. Difference is, i was highly attracted to him at the beginning of our relationship. I would literaly be on fire after a touch on my back or neck. When, as i said, i started re-building the image i had of him by fantasizing and not assuming what sex with him will be like, the smell changed too. I actually remember after one hot night of sex that i felt a really powerful and sweet smell that i really enjoyed. I spent the next two weeks feeling like a cat in hear and could feel his smell continuously. Why this changed, i have noooo idea in the world. I'm just sharing the experience though, because maybe it helps you. 

For the record, I still have moments when my attraction sinks (specially after being rejected, one week after he might as well be my brother). If you wanna work on it, study yourself and your wife, eventually start over from kissing and making out till you reach the sex point and see how that works. If you don't, well, this does take a lot of effort and it may not work out. It's not a sure thing. So from one point of view, yes, it is easier to just leave and find someone who you just naturally click with. Don't take this as advice to stay in the marriage...i have no clue if anyone else is willing to deal with this and take so much time to fix it. But as i said, just some of my experiences that might help you understand some things.


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

Thank you Nekko, good food for thought. Offhand I think your advice would be easier to follow if we ever had a history of kissing, or high degree of attraction at the beginning of our relationship; its hard to rekindle something that was never present. It's going to be difficult to uninhibit her also; she is squeamish, doesn't like certain tastes; I'm going to have to convince myself she enjoys these activities, so, the problem I think is on two ends maybe.

Everyone, I appreciate your advice, I will try talking to her, get counseling / sex therapy, and if that doesn't work, trial separation and go from there. I think that would be the fairest approach.


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## Nekko (Oct 13, 2009)

diaxis said:


> Everyone, I appreciate your advice, I will try talking to her, get counseling / sex therapy, and if that doesn't work, trial separation and go from there. I think that would be the fairest approach.


Let me ask you something. If from the start you didn't feel like you were having sex just because you had to, and she would have actually seemed to enjoy it and lust after you, d'ya think you could have said the same about not being attracted to her. 

I know you can only imagine, but try to.


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## diaxis (Feb 20, 2010)

That's a good question.

The thing is, I'd be a horrible Viking. I can't pull it off without reciprocation. So there is this acceptance thing that is so necessary to me being able to achieve orgasm. When she tells me certain things are off limits, and other things taste bad, this is being processed as physical rejection. She is extremely squeamish and doesn't like certain tastes and smells that pretty much come with the sex experience. If she came at me all hot and bothered and wanted to eat me up, and the mission wasn't impregnation, I don't know how I'd feel. Its a question of whether I could convince myself it wasn't an act, which leaves me in losing spiral. I actually talked to her today and got the air clear, and she brought up this point.

We're going to try to save the marriage, we do love one another, we've acknowledged the problem and committed to try. She had me promise that when all was said and done, if effort and therapy don't prevail that I'd be 100% honest with her. And I'm assuming at that point we'd discuss separation. Its progress in any case that I did the hardest part today, elevated the issue to consciousness, got all the initial tears out of the way, everything is on the table, we're assessing our feelings, and we've committed to give it a fair shot.


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## VeryShyGirl (Feb 18, 2010)

Might be a stab in the dark, but maybe your wife has deeper issues with sex that make her refrain from opening up to you and getting crazy, showing you how much she really does love you? I had that problem. My upbringing (though good) gave me the impression it was dirty and I've always been very inhibited sexually for some reason. In 6 years I have never given my husband a bj, only a handful of times got on top during sex, never said a single word to him about how I feel about sex, what feels good, etc. Nothing.

My husband has felt more like a sibling/roommate/friend for about 5 years now. We had sex 1-2x per month and it was often dull. I just thought thats was how things were when you're married. My sex drive was very low. Unbeknownst to me at the time, he had taken this for rejection, pushed his needs aside, and didn't let me know how he felt. I knew he probably wanted a little more sex (at least at first) but I had no idea the hurt it was causing him. Sounds stupid, but nobody ever told me how sex fit into marriage. I didn't want to be ****ty. Nobody ever told me that whatever I did with my husband was all good and that pleasing him sexually should be at least somewhat of a priority. I saw sex on TV, the internet, its everywhere. Deep down there was still something that was holding me back.

Well, recently that all changed; there is hope. I had a revelation (*see below). I finally realized how integral sex is to a marriage. I thought about how I must have been hurting him all these years, how much he loved me for putting up with it. I felt terrible. I wanted to show him how I really felt but after our sexless years together I couldn't bring myself to just change and start having crazy sex with him, though I wanted to. I did a lot of reading about sex and got myself a little more comfortable with it. Still, the fact that he wasn't all over me (and why should he be after years of this torture) felt like rejection and I couldn't initiate anything. I felt too vulnerable.

I ended up writing a letter to him and laying out my true feelings. Fireworks since then. I'm a different person. Love getting him off, blowjobs til the end. I used to think that was gross but now I honestly like it. With the sex has come other aspects of intimacy like touching and kissing.

I think what helped me the most was 1) learning what a healthy sex life should be and how important it is by reading books and internet and 2) knowing that he's really into me and that he's feeling good about what I'm doing. Knowing I make him horny drives me crazy and I want to do all kinds of new things.

If you're not into you're wife she can probably sense it. Maybe do your best to fake it... I don't think its lying, you just need to get things jumpstarted so you can feel passion for each other. Also, do you ever do anything sexually just for her and act like you love it? I wouldn't think any woman could resist hot oral sex.

* PS she wasn't using hormonal birth control (the pill, etc) during those years together was she? My recent inspiration came from a huge spike in sex drive after I quit the pill after 14 years. I had no idea it was doing that to me. I've read sometimes it can take a long time to come back. Evil. If that's not it I'm sure there are a million other psychological and physical reasons, known and unknown, why these revelations occur after years of marriage.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

VeryShyGirl said:


> I think what helped me the most was 1) learning what a healthy sex life should be and how important it is by reading books and internet and 2) knowing that he's really into me and that he's feeling good about what I'm doing. Knowing I make him horny drives me crazy and I want to do all kinds of new things.



This advice especially number 2 is gold and worth to read many many times to understand this effect.


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