# Jordan Peterson debates gender differences, "pay gap", etc...



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1777&v=aMcjxSThD54

Sorry, can't seem to embed videos anymore.

Interesting debate between Jordan Peterson and Channel 4 News Anchor (I think Cathy Newman). Gotta give Jordan credit as well for patiently answering her questions, especially when she frequently interrupted him and made inaccurate claims.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

ellisredding said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1777&v=amcjxsthd54
> 
> sorry, can't seem to embed videos anymore.
> 
> Interesting debate between jordan peterson and channel 4 news anchor (i think cathy newman). Gotta give jordan credit as well for patiently answering her questions, especially when she frequently interrupted him and made inaccurate claims.


awesome!


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

That was no debate. That was one woman with an agenda not listening to a word he said. It wasn't until he took her own words and pointed them back at herself that she clammed up and got lost.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

What was interesting as well, the anchor seemed to believe in this idea that equal opportunity should result in equal outcome.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> What was interesting as well, the anchor seemed to believe in this idea that equal opportunity should result in equal outcome.


This is the philosophy that drives many SJW's.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

What's an SJW?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Jordan Peterson debates gender differences, &amp;quot;pay gap&amp;quot;, etc...*



dadstartingover said:


> That was no debate. That was one woman with an agenda not listening to a word he said. It wasn't until he took her own words and pointed them back at herself that she clammed up and got lost.


What I would have enjoyed was if he had told her that by constantly talking over him, she was demonstrating firsthand the type of female dominance he was trying to explain.

He is a naturally softer spoken man who clearly thinks before he puts things into words. My husband is similar. It's a common trait of a very logical mind and many women view it as wishy-washiness and uncertainty. 

She is constantly putting words into his mouth and picking battles to distract from his actual point, which he can barely get across before she interrupts again.

At first I thought she was letting him speak plenty, (I thought, thank God he didn't have an American woman interviewing him... They talk over people so much they talk over themselves... Sorry, just how I feel) but then she starts getting very contrary. It's not even a matter of playing devils advocate... She is clearly trying to illegitimize his points (if he can even make them) and make him out to be anti-woman, which he is clearly not, at least in my mind. 

If anything, to me it is a very good example of why arguments about the UK wage gap will not be solved with "feelings," which is her argument. His response is, "it's way more complicated than feelings of injustice and has to be explored on many different levels."

These kinds of "interviews" and tactics put me off, immensely.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

*Re: Jordan Peterson debates gender differences, &amp;quot;pay gap&amp;quot;, etc...*



Satya said:


> If anything, to me it is a very good example of why arguments about the UK wage gap will not be solved with "feelings," which is her argument. His response is, "it's way more complicated than feelings of injustice and has to be explored on many different levels."
> 
> These kinds of "interviews" and tactics put me off, immensely.


The best part was around 22:00 where she was speechless as one of her "points" basically backfired. 

If you go to around 28:00, and I think his point is made here:

CN: "So you are saying, like the Lobsters, we're hardwired as men and women to do certain things, to sorta run along tramlines and there is nothing we can do about it."

JP: "No I am not saying there is nothing we can do about it...chess... Your biological nature is somewhat like that (chess), it sets the rules of the game but within those rules you have a lot of leeway"


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NextTimeAround said:


> What's an SJW?


Social Justice Warrior


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> What's an SJW?


A child


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> This is the philosophy that drives many SJW's.


Funny enough, was reading an article talking about the interview and here are a couple of snippets (they use SJA lol):



> Christakis mentions two important things about Newman. First, she seemed hostile towards Peterson, clearly going into the interview with a moral prejudice towards him. Second, she seemed unable to engage with his arguments, instead misrepresenting them (“You’re saying women aren’t intelligent enough to run top companies?”) or taking issue with them (during a conversation about unhealthy relationships, Newman asked: “What gives you the right to say that?” Answer: “I’m a clinical psychologist.”) At one point, she was rendered speechless.
> 
> It was as though she had never heard arguments like Peterson’s before, and was taken aback to discover they existed. As a presumably well-read person, why had she not been exposed to arguments like this before? The answer, I think, is that these arguments have largely been banished from contemporary mainstream news media and entertainment. Only because of Peterson’s immense grassroots success has he forced his way into the conversation, which makes it all the more awkward when an interviewer looking to put him in place ends up bewildered.
> 
> ...


Also, here is another excerpt from the intereview



> Cathy Newman: A simple question, is gender equality a myth, in your view? Is that something that’s just never going to happen?
> 
> Jordan B Peterson: It depends on what you mean by equality
> 
> ...


The full article:

Jordan B Peterson, Critical Theory, and the New Bourgeoisie - Quillette


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Funny enough, was reading an article talking about the interview and here are a couple of snippets (they use SJA lol):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for this link. My corporate overlords block Youtube on my computer.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Thank you for this link. My corporate overlords block Youtube on my computer.


Definitely worth a watch outside of work if you have time


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

.To be honest, before this video I had never heard of Jordan Peterson. Here is one article that talks a bit about him for anyone interested.

https://www.chronicle.com/article/What-s-So-Dangerous-About/242256

One quick excerpt which shows apparently how divisive he is viewed:



> You’d never guess from the reverential atmosphere in the 500-seat theater just how polarizing Peterson has become over the past year. Days before, fliers were tacked up around his neighborhood warning the community about the dangerous scholar in their midst, accusing him of "campaigning against the human rights" of minorities and associating with the alt-right. There have been several calls for his ouster from the University of Toronto — where he’s tenured — including a recent open letter to the dean of the faculty of arts and science signed by hundreds, including many of his fellow professors. Friends refuse to comment on him lest they be associated with his image. Critics hesitate, too, for fear that his supporters will unleash their online wrath. A graduate student at another Canadian university was reprimanded for showing a short video clip of Peterson to a group of undergraduates. One of the professors taking her to task likened Peterson to Hitler.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

He posts many of his lectures on Youtube. Many of them are pretty entertaining. He's also been on the Joe Rogan podcast a time or two. 

I like him because he meets the SJW crowd's histrionics with calm logic. They usually respond like this TV personality--using strawmen and condescension.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

EllisRedding said:


> .To be honest, before this video I had never heard of Jordan Peterson. Here is one article that talks a bit about him for anyone interested.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have come across him before: he debates with people like Sam Harris etc and those are very interesting debates. He’s very interesting and makes a lot of good points but I don’t agree with all his points of view (especially when he redefines words just for the sake of being controversial). Though this interview was pretty much right on the money: unfortunately his interviewer was out of her lobster depth as she kept putting words in his mouth.
It’s a complex topic. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BlueWoman (Jan 8, 2015)

I couldn’t watch more than a few minutes of it. Perhaps it’s my over all mood, but I found both sides frustrating. It felt like she was responding to opinions or behaviors that hadn’t happened in the interview. And since I’ve never heard of him, I couldn’t understand the context.

As far as I got, I agree with this...some men should grow up, and some women do settle for immature and subpar men because at least they can dominate them, which means business gets taken care of. And he’s also right, it’s not a good long term solution. It’s exhausting to take care of all these man babies who can’t figure out how to put a glass in the dishwasher or put the toilet seat down after they peed all over the rim. And then after all of that total incompetence, they whine about feminazis and SJWs.

I also agree with him that women have a responsibility towards ensuring that men are competent. After all, it’s women who raise these incompetent entitled jerks. 


Hmm...I, maybe, shouldn’t post before I have my coffee, or after I have nightmares about my ex. 

Maybe my words are a little over the top, but honestly, he really did get that right on many fronts. I don’t know what offended her, but she is clearly looking for a battle. If I knew more about him, perhaps I would understand it. Maybe when I less cranky, I’ll go watch the rest of the video.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Finally got a chance to watch the video. He was playing chess while she was playing tic-tac-toe. Fabulous.

He's one of those guys like Hitchens. Whether he's right or wrong, there's just no way you're going to win an argument with him.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> He posts many of his lectures on Youtube. Many of them are pretty entertaining. He's also been on the Joe Rogan podcast a time or two.
> 
> I like him because he meets the SJW crowd's histrionics with calm logic. They usually respond like this TV personality--using strawmen and condescension.


I was used to argue the feminist cause in Denmark, based on hard logic. It made me misogynist in the UK.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

I get a Subscribe page from that link. here's another link for anyone else who may get the subscribe page and doesn't want to subscribe.





I almost posted this the other day but figured I'd wait until the subject came up in a thread, which shouldn't take long.
I've seen a few of his youtube videos and liked them all. There is one where protesters are shouting him down on a college campus during one of his talks and he maintains an eerie calm that drives them nuts. He came to the forefront when he refused to use the many pronouns the Canadian govt. passed a law demanding all citizens must use for LGBTQ... etc.


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## Rubix Cubed (Feb 21, 2016)

Fozzy said:


> He posts many of his lectures on Youtube. Many of them are pretty entertaining. He's also been on the Joe Rogan podcast a time or two.
> 
> I like him because he meets the SJW crowd's histrionics with calm logic. They usually respond like this TV personality--using strawmen and condescension.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

That is precisely how that whole discussion went.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

The whole premise is made up. There is no "pay gap".


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Finally got a chance to watch the video. He was playing chess while she was playing tic-tac-toe. Fabulous.
> 
> He's one of those guys like Hitchens. Whether he's right or wrong, there's just no way you're going to win an argument with him.


You have to assume that Cathy Newman had done her research on Jordan and understood his debate style. She was clearly out of her league in this debate, so it is hard to understand (assuming she knew who he was) why she even went through with this interview. Was it just arrogance, did she really think she was going to show him up and prove him wrong  Assume from being very calm in his points, you can see that he words his comments very carefully (in part so there is no misinterpretation which obviously was not the case during this interview lol)


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

*Re: Jordan Peterson debates gender differences, &amp;quot;pay gap&amp;quot;, etc...*



Satya said:


> What I would have enjoyed was if he had told her that by constantly talking over him, she was demonstrating firsthand the type of female dominance he was trying to explain.
> 
> He is a naturally softer spoken man who clearly thinks before he puts things into words. My husband is similar. It's a common trait of a very logical mind and many women view it as wishy-washiness and uncertainty.
> 
> ...


Interviewing in the UK does tend to be far more aggressive than in most other countries. It is rarely that you wish the politician have more chance to speak without criticism from the interviewer, but that does happen in the UK.

That said, I have rarely seem a more one sided interview. Well done to him.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Media is circling the wagons around Newman.

Misogynistic abuse against Cathy Newman is a symbol of the backlash against the MeToo movement | The Independent

She's simultaneously being portrayed as a hero and a victim, and Peterson is in the words of this author, "a cartoon villain".


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> Media is circling the wagons around Newman.
> 
> Misogynistic abuse against Cathy Newman is a symbol of the backlash against the MeToo movement | The Independent
> 
> She's simultaneously being portrayed as a hero and a victim, and Peterson is in the words of this author, "a cartoon villain".


Lol, just read this:

https://hequal.wordpress.com/2018/0...e-to-peterson-his-supporters-than-vice-versa/



> Adding up all the tweets, retweets and likes we find the following totals:
> 
> Non-sexist violence aimed at Newman or her supporters: 2
> 
> ...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Depends on your definition of "pay gap". It can be defined in ways that make it seem large, it can be defined in ways that make it seem small or non-existent.

None of those are "wrong", but people need to be accurate in describing the problem. 





MAJDEATH said:


> The whole premise is made up. There is no "pay gap".


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Fozzy said:


> Media is circling the wagons around Newman.
> 
> Misogynistic abuse against Cathy Newman is a symbol of the backlash against the MeToo movement | The Independent
> 
> ...





EllisRedding said:


> Lol, just read this:
> 
> https://hequal.wordpress.com/2018/0...e-to-peterson-his-supporters-than-vice-versa/


That would be news. It is, at present, just on a blog.

And, threats against men are not as big news. My own reaction to a woman being threatened and a man being threatened would be different. One is news, one is not.

This is a storm in a tea-cup and a media contrived and media storm (in a tea-cup).



uhtred said:


> Depends on your definition of "pay gap". It can be defined in ways that make it seem large, it can be defined in ways that make it seem small or non-existent.
> 
> None of those are "wrong", but people need to be accurate in describing the problem.


That is exactly right. If I only listened to people who were over 5'10", it would effectively be sexist, but miss the basis of the discrimination. As he acknowledges, there are several factors at work.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Depends on your definition of "pay gap". It can be defined in ways that make it seem large, it can be defined in ways that make it seem small or non-existent.
> 
> None of those are "wrong", but people need to be accurate in describing the problem.


Agreed, the pay gap does indeed exist. The problem is those who claim that it exists purely based on discriminatory efforts and who expect equal opportunity to result in equal outcome. Some people will never be able to look past the numbers or will never be happy until the numbers equal, regardless of how we get there.


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## WorldsApart (May 5, 2011)

Funny how the pay gap discussion always revolves around the white collar office jobs. When was the last time you heard a demand for balanced hiring in construction trades, sanitation, mining, and other dirty blue collar work?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

WorldsApart said:


> Funny how the pay gap discussion always revolves around the white collar office jobs. When was the last time you heard a demand for balanced hiring in construction trades, sanitation, mining, and other dirty blue collar work?


Other dirty blue collar work such as cleaning and nursing?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

uhtred said:


> Depends on your definition of "pay gap". It can be defined in ways that make it seem large, it can be defined in ways that make it seem small or non-existent.
> 
> None of those are "wrong", but people need to be accurate in describing the problem.


It may well be that the kinds of jobs that *on average* suit women well are different from those that suit men well, and so they end up in different jobs, with different pay. The question then becomes, how is it that "woman jobs" tend to pay less on average than "man jobs"? Market forces?


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## WorldsApart (May 5, 2011)

Laurentium said:


> Other dirty blue collar work such as cleaning and nursing?


According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics: https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/ceseeb5a.htm

Cleaning (Janitorial) is 53.4% women, and Nursing is 79.8%, so it looks like women are well represented in those trades. 
And to my point, overall Mining and Logging: 13.0% Construction: 12.8%

This is simply an observation that no one talks about the overall balance.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)




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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

The problem with the "Pay gap" premise, it takes average salaries for men and women, shows that women make $0.77 on the dollar to what a man makes, and then the conclusion must be women are getting woefully underpaid b/c they are women. As shown in the video above and has been debunked many times, there are many factors beyond biased based pay that accounts for the gap.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

On the subject of the pay gap, a study was actually done on Uber drivers. Even though pay is not gender based, it was discovered that male drivers earn 7% more per hour than women on average.



> The study was released by Stanford University, the University of Chicago and Uber itself. Uber pays its drivers based on a gender-blind fare algorithm that factors in how long the drive is in both time and miles. After analyzing data from more than 1.8 million Uber trips, researchers discovered that male drivers earn 7% more per hour than women on average, and have boiled it down to three different reasons as to why:
> 
> Men drive in more congested areas
> 
> ...





> Conclusion
> 
> The gig economy has become an increasingly large source of earnings for millions of individuals.
> On Uber alone, there are over 3 million active drivers worldwide completing 15 million trips each
> ...




https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/UberPayGap.pdf


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