# Last chance letter to my wife - what do you think and what do I do?



## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

Dear my beautiful wife
I have a problem. It is my problem, but it affects both of us:
In the years we have been married we have complemented one another perfectly. As a partnership we are perfect in nearly every way, and it does not surprise me that our marriage has worked successfully for so long when others our own age fail to do the same. We agree on where we want to go in our lives, and what we need to do to get there. With you, I make better decisions in my life and that’s a fact.
The one and only area which causes me concern is our intimate relationship. I don’t just mean sex, though I can see why it might seem that way. Whilst you have never been incredibly touch-feely, I have always responded well to physical intimacy. I have always liked to know the person I am with wants to be with me by what they do, rather than by what they say.
Whereas you have changed a little over the last few years, in that your desire for physical intimacy may have declined slightly, mine on the other hand has changed significantly, and it is in this ‘gap’ the problem lies. Frankly, I find myself yearning for a relationship which includes far more desire and passion than ours. We have discussed this over the years, as the issue has developed. I understand when you say that sex is not so important to you, and that you believe I am being unreasonable in what I am asking of you. Please understand this is important to me, and I hope that is enough for you to give this issue the consideration it deserves.
Regarding sex: I wonder if we have managed to create a situation whereby we are rarely intimate without sex. This may be as a result of a combination of factors: you believe any intimacy will lead to sex, which you may not want; I believe the chance of rejection is so high I am not inclined to instigate intimacy unless I want to have sex. We either have sex or we do nothing, even though there is so much more to intimacy than just sex. 
Whatever we do, I hope to produce in you a response which indicates your pleasure. I want to develop our intimacy, so that we want to be with one another without the pressure. I want us to be comfortable with one another, and honest about what we desire.
I thrive on your response to me: my desire is inherently linked to yours, and if there is no evidence of desire for me by you, then it is difficult for me to express my desire for you. Sex has therefore become a chore: having sex provides relief, rather than pleasure (like a fix). I want us to have sex because we want each other, not just because it has been ages and I can’t take it anymore!
The feeling I get when you really hold me against you tight, when you kiss me passionately, and when we make love together (as opposed to just me making love to you) is so rare that is has become a fixation for me. I notice the gaps between these expressions of our love more and more.
So we go round in circles: I don’t want to come to bed early because I don’t want to lie there staring into the dark frustrated, having been rejected by you (again). When we do make love you barely respond, so there is more relief than enjoyment for me; there certainly is not the pleasure I believe we would otherwise have if it were a more relaxed, natural activity. I have long gone past the point where I would consider stopping making love to you to ask you why you are not joining in; instead I just get on with the task in hand.
Sometimes it is different, and we experience a mutual, enjoyable passion that reminds me why I love you so much. That this is possible for us makes it all the more frustrating that these occasions are so rare.
And so, I find myself asking questions: 
How important is this to me, and how does its importance compare to the other elements of our partnership which are so good?
Can I honestly be happy in a marriage which does not include these elements?
Can you and I create a marriage which includes these elements?
If not, what do I do about it?
You always asked me to talk to you before I go to the point where I would consider an affair. Though I am not at that point (indeed I don’t know where it is), I need to know you understand my feelings so that we can work out a way to avoid that situation together.
Please know that I am not asking for some kind of fake act on your part; you either want me or you don’t. Just know that I love you and I want you, and all I want is for you to want me too.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I think this is a very well written heartfelt letter. I think you should give it to her. 

I would suggest that you may want to remove the affair part though - it could be construed as a threat and may detract from the rest of the letter. It could become the focus instead of a side line.


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks mary35. I did wonder about that - and certainly did not want to make any idle threats. The think is, I have raised this with her before and she insists there is no problem here. Expecting sex more than once a fortnight with someone who actually gives something back is unreasonable, apparently!
Thanks again for taking the time to read it. I will think on your advice


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jarvis,
Context matters a lot. 

How old are you/she?
How long have you been married?
How often do you have sex?
How often does she reject you?
What kind of shape are you in compared to when you married?
What was your sex life like before marrying / early marriage vs now?

As you have learned sex is mechanically simple, but passion can be incredibly complex. I am a very logical person. Imagine my confusion when my W told me directly: "I don't like being spanked" and yet when she is being physically difficult naughty and I say "Do that again and I WILL spank you" and she does it again - knowing full well what I am going to do. 

Does she like it or dislike it? YES. She dislikes it. AND it turns her on. So instead of trying to have an Encyclopedia sized conversation with her about this - I simply warn her when she is being very difficult. And when she gives me that devilish smile and persists......

Are you possibly "over loving" your W? Take a look at the link below. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html




Jarvis said:


> Dear my beautiful wife
> I have a problem. It is my problem, but it affects both of us:
> In the years we have been married we have complemented one another perfectly. As a partnership we are perfect in nearly every way, and it does not surprise me that our marriage has worked successfully for so long when others our own age fail to do the same. We agree on where we want to go in our lives, and what we need to do to get there. With you, I make better decisions in my life and that’s a fact.
> The one and only area which causes me concern is our intimate relationship. I don’t just mean sex, though I can see why it might seem that way. Whilst you have never been incredibly touch-feely, I have always responded well to physical intimacy. I have always liked to know the person I am with wants to be with me by what they do, rather than by what they say.
> ...


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

Mem11363
We are in our early 30s
Married 10 years
sex is about 2 or 3 per month, 99% instigated by me
I am rejected about 4 out of 5
Both physically fit and slim
It has never been great. I know I have changed, and my need for a wife who wants me and doesn't just lie there and do nothing when she does agree to make love has become an issue for me over the last few years.
No chance of my over-loving her. If anything I have learned to keep away due to fear of rejection.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Personally, I'm not a fan of writing letters for this sort of thing. What you need to do is generate sexual tension and attraction in your marriage, this begins with you, not her. You want her to be attracted to you again, but this letter will make sex into a burden or pressure, in your situation you should be thinking to lighten the environment in the house, not make it heavier.

Hit the gym, spend less time around the house--either hanging with some friends or becoming involved with hobbies and projects. Find the guy you were when you two were dating, and in the meantime, treat your wife like a date. Walk into your house every day with the frame of mind that you're your own man, and she'd do well to JOIN you as you make these changes and better yourself, because you're a catch. It'll confuse her a little bit, but don't let her in on what's going on. Right now, you need to focus on generating lust, and I don't think a heartfelt letter will do that.

Read every single post in this thread and digest it, thinking of how it applies to your situation and how you can fix it:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

Thanks Blue Moon
Gym is not an issue, and I am a martial arts instructor. My work and our hobbies mean we are rarely under one another's feet!
The date idea is a good one. Unfortunately lust for my wife means letting me do everything (and I do mean letting), rather than joining in any more than usual. I just don't know how to convince her to let her hair down and indulge.
I will go through the threads, thanks for the reference.


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Jarvis said:


> Thanks Blue Moon
> Gym is not an issue, and I am a martial arts instructor. My work and our hobbies mean we are rarely under one another's feet!
> The date idea is a good one. Unfortunately lust for my wife means letting me do everything (and I do mean letting), rather than joining in any more than usual. I just don't know how to convince her to let her hair down and indulge.
> I will go through the threads, thanks for the reference.


Yeah, if you're a martial arts instructor, I'm sure you have no problem in the fitness department! Whatever you do, just think of this more as a passion/sex thing, and not love. She can love you to pieces but you have to move her to the point of wanting to jump you. In addition to those threads, I have some e-books and other reading material that has circulated the boards. If interested shoot me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send some literature your way. 

This is a journey, think of it as a challenge and go into it with enthusiasm. Good luck my friend.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

Blue Moon said:


> Personally, I'm not a fan of writing letters for this sort of thing. What you need to do is generate sexual tension and attraction in your marriage, this begins with you, not her. You want her to be attracted to you again, but this letter will make sex into a burden or pressure, in your situation you should be thinking to lighten the environment in the house, not make it heavier.
> 
> Read every single post in this thread and digest it, thinking of how it applies to your situation and how you can fix it:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


This and this. It was a very heartfelt letter, I just don't recommend giving it to her.

The letter will not produce the desire you are looking for. It will further kill it and she _will_ engage is guilt/chore sex with you.

You need to change your sex initiation method. Asking for sex kills desire. Asking for sex is needy. It turns it into a chore and a bore.



> It has never been great. I know I have changed, and my need for a wife who wants me and doesn't just lie there and do nothing when she does agree to make love has become an issue for me over the last few years.


This is the key. This is a HUGE sign that you are not creating passion or desire in her. She has lost sexual attraction towards you. You may also be too gentle and soft during lovemaking.

I'll bring over some tips I posted on another thread.


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## notaname (Feb 4, 2011)

This is a post from another thread where a man has the same problem as you do.
Read the whole thread here: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/23006-wife-doesn-t-feel-need-sex.html



> Some things that have helped:
> 
> *Spicing up the bedroom with toys and variety of positions
> 
> ...


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## Joanie (Oct 24, 2010)

I also don't think this letter is a good idea. I don't mean this to come across as mean spirited but my initial reaction was.....do you want some cheese with that whine???? Sorry....just my gut reaction.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

J I think the key to the problem is stated very clearly in your letter. 

I don't think it is a good letter because it is a fiction. You are not happy and your relationship is not perfect. It may be perfect for your wife but not for you. You are negating your needs in favor of her, in my opinion. I think it means that you don't think you should have a problem with sexual rejection. 

Would you be willing to read up on male sexuality and the role of sex in marriage for men? Do you feel depressed and lonely with the contant rejection, unloved, unattractive, unappreciated, in your marriage? If so do you know why? Because you don't have sex frequently enough to maintain the emotional connection with the woman you love.

I know because I had a problem in my marriage understanding my husband and his desire for sex. I really don't understand very well but I know it is true. It seems that most women don't understand male sexuality and we operate under that misunderstanding. 

If you are sure that your reaction to sexual rejection is normal then you can be more assertive about your needs.

I think you should rip up the fictional letter and write it again when you feel loved the way you need to be loved. Good luck.


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## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

I think the letter is extremely well-worded and heartfelt as well as an invaluable tool to straighten out your thoughts. But I don't think you should edit out the affair part and here's why: I don't think you should ever give this letter to your wife. Use it for what you've used it for...an outlet and a vehicle to organize your thoughts. Communication is obviously huge in any relationship, but one thing I've learned and will take to heart WHEN (not if) I start succumbing again to the overwhelming sense of hurt, humiliation, and depression that comes from rejection is this: talk all you want, express yourself however you wish, but ultimately, the only thing that will bring about change in HER is YOUR actions.
Women who have no sex drive or no desire to fulfill or acknowledge a need for sexual fulfillment are like The Terminator: they can't be bargained with, they can't be reasoned with; they don't feel pity, or pain, or remorse (ok, that might have been a bit over the top but you get my intent  ) Seriously, back to what I was saying...nothing you SAY will make her want you (and *that* is what you need to happen). My d!ck never got hard from being out-debated or effectively reasoned with...neither will she get horny from a similar course of action. What makes women sexually attracted to men is how they act.
You're a martial arts instructor...I'm in the military. So we both understand combat. The Art of War: know your enemy and know yourself. If you know yourself and not the enemy, you will be vanquished; if you know the enemy and not yourself, you will be vanquished; if you know the enemy and you know yourself, in a thousand battles, you will never know defeat. This is so many practical applications and marriage is one. Your wife is not the enemy of course, but you have to A) know yourself; and B) know your wife (women). 
A combination of renewing life within yourself, turning down the thermostat (as has been mentioned and I think you said maybe the thermostat in your marriage might be turned down anyway because of your understandable aversion toward rejection), making yourself less available both physically and emotionally, start acting as though you're single (ease into it), add an air of mystery, and one of two things will happen: she'll either notice and become more interested/attracted to you; or she won't notice and therefore not change or she will notice but it won't matter to her and she won't change. If the latter happens, then you can prepare yourself for the next step which may be MC, continuing to make yourself less available while doing things that you want to do for yourself without her approval or permission while opening up a few lines of communication or, if it goes this far, perhaps separation. But that's a long ways down the road.
Regardless, life is short bro. You need to follow what makes you happy and your wife isn't doing that now. So start doing what makes you happy that does not involve her. If she sees you less available but happier and more confident, she should become intrigued. Lots of other good advice on this thread too.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The letter will have no affect on her sexual moods. I wrote one of these letters once. Logically convincing her about the reasons you need sex will have no affect. You have to connect with her at an emotional level by meeting her needs for a period of time, and do it in such a way that you are not doing good deeds for sexual favors. You have to make her feel that you love her and she is special to you. When she is emotionally "into" you and happier in her overall life, she will become more sexual.


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## sntdwn2ufrmhvn (May 20, 2010)

Joanie said:


> I also don't think this letter is a good idea. I don't mean this to come across as mean spirited but my initial reaction was.....do you want some cheese with that whine???? Sorry....just my gut reaction.


A man or woman has every right to have feelings towards lack of sexual intimacy, or intimacy period. They are basically roommates that have sex a few times a month, how is him having feelings him whining? men are allowed to feel as well...all i have to say to you is WOW!


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Hicks said:


> The letter will have no affect on her sexual moods. I wrote one of these letters once. Logically convincing her about the reasons you need sex will have no affect. You have to connect with her at an emotional level by meeting her needs for a period of time, and do it in such a way that you are not doing good deeds for sexual favors. You have to make her feel that you love her and she is special to you. When she is emotionally "into" you and happier in her overall life, she will become more sexual.


This is good advice


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## bill2011 (Feb 5, 2011)

Most of us men here are in the same boat, whether a letter or multiple long conversations about the topic will not produce a result (trust us !!). Spend more time on your self and lower the thermostat and don't ask for anything from her. Last part scares us all cause you might feel you will never get any then but it does work.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Joanie said:


> I also don't think this letter is a good idea. I don't mean this to come across as mean spirited but my initial reaction was.....do you want some cheese with that whine???? Sorry....just my gut reaction.


And here I thought that clear, honest communication about our feelings was what women have wanted from men for the last 40 years? When women complain about their emotions, it's "communication". When men communicate about their emotions, it's "whining". If you don't like whining, don't invite the communication.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Blue Moon said:


> Personally, I'm not a fan of writing letters for this sort of thing. What you need to do is generate sexual tension and attraction in your marriage, this begins with you, not her. You want her to be attracted to you again, but this letter will make sex into a burden or pressure, in your situation you should be thinking to lighten the environment in the house, not make it heavier.
> 
> Hit the gym, spend less time around the house--either hanging with some friends or becoming involved with hobbies and projects. Find the guy you were when you two were dating, and in the meantime, treat your wife like a date. Walk into your house every day with the frame of mind that you're your own man, and she'd do well to JOIN you as you make these changes and better yourself, because you're a catch. It'll confuse her a little bit, but don't let her in on what's going on. Right now, you need to focus on generating lust, and I don't think a heartfelt letter will do that.
> 
> ...


Okay Blue Moon - here's one for you.

I have the same issue as the OP, but I'm the wife and my husband behaves like his wife.

What do I do? I've tried stepping back, not pressuring and all that happens is he backs off more, doesn't come to me.

I've tried being loving, not nagging, not critical. I've been supportive, I ask him about his day every day and I'm interested in hearing how it actually was.

I have taken care of myself, he's actually told me I was pretty (yes at 50, I've aged well), says he loves me...but he doesn't show it and this is how I need it - my love language is physical touch, without it I don't feel loved, period. He knows this, I've discussed it with him.

But still I continue to have this problem.

What do I do as a woman to turn this around?

I'm open and willing to listen.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> And here I thought that clear, honest communication about our feelings was what women have wanted from men for the last 40 years? When women complain about their emotions, it's "communication". When men communicate about their emotions, it's "whining". If you don't like whining, don't invite the communication.


I think you're unfairly subverting the thread to discuss your issues. Why not stay on topic for the sake of helping this man. If you're really interested in starting a discourse on your issues, then start a thread of your own. 

I don't think anyone questioned his right to express his feeling and no one ridiculed him either. The point some posters made, including myself, is that he should be more candid, direct and resolute about how he really feels. 

That is very much in support of the expression of his feelings. Moreover, it sounded as if he was hesitant about his right to feel as he does and every poster validated the fact that his problems are normal and natural under the circumstances.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay Blue Moon - here's one for you.
> 
> I have the same issue as the OP, but I'm the wife and my husband behaves like his wife.
> 
> ...


OK, MWIL, I'll take a stab at it. The differences between male and female psycho-sexuality are different, though, so if something I say doesn't necessarily make sense, ask.

What I would do in your situation? Road trip.

I once observed a couple in a similar situation to yours, and after the MC saw that the man had an emotional block ("emotional constipation", is how she described it) she gave the wife whispered instructions. Next session, I found out what they were (although she altered them considerably).

Basically, the woman planned for an extended weekend, and packed for both her and her husband without telling him. Choosing a 3-day weekend when she knew he could get extra time off if he needed to, she woke him up that morning, took him to a nice brunch, fed him a couple of mimosas, and got him sleepy. Then she proposed a drive in the country. No serious conversation, just enjoying the day and the sunshine. 

When he got relaxed enough, he took a nap. When he did that, she got on the interstate, headed West. He didn't wake up until they were already 50 miles away. He started to get worried, but she shook him off and said that there was a restaurant she'd heard about a ways up the road, and she wanted to take him there.

Then she started playing a game: every 20 miles, he had to tell her something about himself that she didn't know (or that he thought she didn't know). It was hard, at first, but as the miles rolled on she learned a couple of small things she'd never known about her husband after 15 years. They stopped, ate dinner, made out in the car, and full and happy, he took a nap while she drove home.

Only she didn't. She got back on the highway and kept heading west.

When he woke up several hours later, they were in another state, hours from home. He was upset at first, and demanded an explanation, but his wife simply insisted that a spontaneous little road trip wouldn't do any harm: they could go back in the morning. Then she checked into a motel, gave him a massage, and humped his brains out. Again in the morning. Then she took him to breakfast, saw a couple of sights, and piled back in the car. Still going West. He was so relaxed that he didn't even realize it until it was almost lunch.

He freaked out again -- they were now over a day from home, and he was getting pissed that she was doing this without consulting him. She insisted that she needed to understand him and his emotional constipation more, and as soon as she did she'd turn around and go home. That set him off and they argued a few hours, but eventually he calmed down, started talking about some things in his past regarding his relationship with his father, and before you knew it they were stopping in the third state over for dinner. 

At that point, he was so far from home, so far from his native element, and she was the only person he knew to talk to, that he felt far more comfortable opening up. They bought tacky souvieneers, saw some more sights, and started really relaxing and enjoying themselves. He figured they'd turn around in the morning and head back, and he was surprised how much fun he was having . . . with his wife. He was even getting a lot more physically demonstrative, flirtatious, and even adventurous. Plus, he began initiating sex at the hotel that night.

On the third morning, he was eager to turn around and go back home. That's when his wife said, basically, "I'm not sure I understand you yet. Let's keep this up until we hit California. If I don't understand why you can't communicate by then, you can fly back on your own."

He was shocked, surprised, even devastated -- but he was suddenly a LOT more communicative, once he realized that this fun trip was actually a sign of his jeopardized marriage. He started digging deeper, and speaking more plainly, confessing all sorts of secrets from his past and things that bothered him that he never admitted before, told her about his unmet dreams and aspirations that she'd never known, and generally exposed a side of her husband that she never knew existed. The fact was, he really was attracted to her, but some sex issues his father imparted to him had kept him super-restrained and emotionally constipated. 

Before they got to Arkansas, they were stopping by the side of the road to have sex. They finally agreed to turn back around when they got to Texas, and by the time they got back to the east coast it was like they were an entirely new couple.

Will this work for you? Hard to say. But I think the key things involved in this impressive transformation were: 

1) getting out of the home environment -- getting out the state all together -- put the two of them on equal footing in a place where they had no support from anyone else. It was just them, in the car, all day.

2) the surprise nature of the journey. If the husband had known about it, he admitted he would have said no, or if he had been convinced he would have over-planned and put together an itinerary (he was a workaholic) and generally ruined the road trip. By surprising him, she caught him mentally off guard and kept him there with an unpredictable scenario.

3) providing a judgement-free environment for communication. Once she assured him (and made him believe) that he could literally say anything and she wouldn't judge, just listen, and would never bring it up again if he asked, he opened up dramatically. In turn she was able to share some of her hidden worries and fears, some experiences she'd been ashamed of.

4) Making the trip fun, completely spontaneous, and then suddenly revealing the apparent cracks in the relationship added both a more relaxed feel to the trip and a sense of urgency and ultimatum. The wife never said she'd leave him, just that she'd send him home on a plane. That was enough to jog his interest.

5) Treating sex as an indulgence, rather than a chore. When they were in cheap hotels on the road, he felt far less restrained, and the emotional and intellectual foreplay in the car all day really hyped up his hormones at night. She admitted that when they pulled over for a quickie in Arkansas (at his initiation) it was the first spontaneous, purely horny moment her husband had displayed in years. They talked about sex exhaustively, of course, but allowed the feelings to flow naturally and organically, outside of the routine.

Just a suggestion -- you may find it helpful.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*I disagree strongly*

Ian,
Women want us to listen when they want to communicate. 

And they want us to be clear in our communication. They just don't want us to "talk" about it. They want strong - nonverbal communication as much as possible. I loved the comment about whining. That is a totally honest and very normal female reaction to a male "talking" about his feelings. If instead he conveys his feelings by playing with the temperature - generally he will get much, much better results. 

This isn't "good" or "bad" it just "is". 



IanIronwood said:


> And here I thought that clear, honest communication about our feelings was what women have wanted from men for the last 40 years? When women complain about their emotions, it's "communication". When men communicate about their emotions, it's "whining". If you don't like whining, don't invite the communication.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

*Re: I disagree strongly*



MEM11363 said:


> Ian,
> Women want us to listen when they want to communicate.
> 
> And they want us to be clear in our communication. They just don't want us to "talk" about it. They want strong - nonverbal communication as much as possible. I loved the comment about whining. That is a totally honest and very normal female reaction to a male "talking" about his feelings. If instead he conveys his feelings by playing with the temperature - generally he will get much, much better results.
> ...


Agreed, in a general situation. But in this particular case, the man's emotional constipation bordered on emotional sterility, and the more pressure the MC and his wife put on him in counseling, the more defensive and closed-down he got. In this case some unresolved conflict with his father (and his father's idea of what a man's position in a family is supposed to be) was keeping him from being able to open up. 

The thing that surprised me most about this was actually the fact that he did end up opening up to his wife, with enough gentle coaxing, and they resolved that issue relatively cleanly. I thought at the time that he needed an unjudgemental male to confide in, but the MC was pretty canny about such things. 

And the point about whining is well-taken. I'm just sick of the dichotomy between what women say they want and what they actually want. Accountability is cool. Hypocrisy is not.


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## tobio (Nov 30, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> And here I thought that clear, honest communication about our feelings was what women have wanted from men for the last 40 years? When women complain about their emotions, it's "communication". When men communicate about their emotions, it's "whining". If you don't like whining, don't invite the communication.


I can't speak for all women, but in my circumstances I would quite frankly be ecstatic if my OH went to the effort of writing me a letter to explain his feelings. It might answer a lot of questions he seems unwilling or unable to address. In fact ANY admission of feeling right now would help to melt some ice but he'd rather huff and puff and do anything to try and persuade me that no, couples who've been together "a while" simply do not show affection and my need is "pathetic" and "needy."

Sorry OP. I think it could be a good step- depends on your W and how well you think it would be received. What I *do* think is that it probably won't work as a standalone effort; there needs to be some positive action to accompany the letter.


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

Thank you for all this support - I knew this was a good idea!
I did write the letter for me, not for her. I wanted to organise my thoughts so I could approach this issue in some kind of sensible manner, though the feelings do get in the way of objectivity.
I am home tomorrow after a week away, so perhaps an opportunity to be a bit mysterious.
I don't want to whine, but understand I do know my wife, and she does not respond well to demands. According to her, this is not a problem at all, and that my expectations arise from unreasonable hollywood stereotypes (I have invited her to discuss this with her friends, who would surely dispel this myth, but it would not be in ther nature to be so open even with them, more's the pity!).
I will turn down the thermostat, and attempt to create some intrigue. I will question any rejection (even to a simple kiss - I hate it when she turns the cheek), with a question but no demand. However, I am scared that the logical conclusion of all this is that she cannot meet my needs and we are not compatible.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Jarvis said:


> Thank you for all this support - I knew this was a good idea!
> I did write the letter for me, not for her. I wanted to organise my thoughts so I could approach this issue in some kind of sensible manner, though the feelings do get in the way of objectivity.
> I am home tomorrow after a week away, so perhaps an opportunity to be a bit mysterious.
> I don't want to whine, but understand I do know my wife, and she does not respond well to demands. According to her, this is not a problem at all, and that my expectations arise from unreasonable hollywood stereotypes (I have invited her to discuss this with her friends, who would surely dispel this myth, but it would not be in ther nature to be so open even with them, more's the pity!).
> I will turn down the thermostat, and attempt to create some intrigue. I will question any rejection (even to a simple kiss - I hate it when she turns the cheek), with a question but no demand. However, I am scared that the logical conclusion of all this is that she cannot meet my needs and we are not compatible.


Jarvis. Dude. Re-read my post. Fear is the mind-killer, and therefore the man-killer. It might take a philosophical leap of faith, but if you fear such a thing as incompatibility, you will forever be frozen where you are now. 

Sure, you might be incompatible. Opening this door might eventually lead to the unraveling of your relationship. But then again, if you were content with how things were, you wouldn't have come here. Quit worrying about what might happen or how she might respond, based on your past experience, and cowboy up. Drink a little tiger's blood. Sex isn't a logical thing, so logical conclusions don't apply. When women told us back in the 1970s that they wanted sensitive men who could communicate, they were lying to us. That's what they thought they wanted, so logically we tried to give it to them, but the fact is they don't want that, don't respond to that positively, and eventually grow to loathe that.

I'm going to send you a PM with more explicit advice, but definitely quit worrying about the future. I mean, most of us will be dead in 50 years, so why waste time worrying about the few years we have when we could be pursuing what makes us happy? Ditch the fear.


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

By the way, the thermostat thingy is brilliant. I think I'm going to stop apologising, and keep the door open without necessarily being the first one to walk through it all the time (if you know what I mean). It is in my character to continue to push and fill the gap, but I see now that this is not helping at all! If there is no response, she can only claim I am no longer doing all the work and we know where we are.
Thanks everyone for your input


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

IanIronwood said:


> OK, MWIL, I'll take a stab at it. The differences between male and female psycho-sexuality are different, though, so if something I say doesn't necessarily make sense, ask.
> 
> What I would do in your situation? Road trip.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input and suggestion.

I actually tried this, on my own, last year.

When I tried to get him to get in the car, he demanded to know why and wouldn't until I told him.

When I told him, he said - no. You know that last-minute plans cause confusion for me (TBI), so I had to cancel and lose my deposit on the hotel, etc. I had even planned for fishing and some golf (he loves to do both - both things I don't like, but do with him to bond us together).

He HATES surprises and gets very upset when they are thrown on him. I would love to do this again, I just might and if he doesn't go, I'll go myself and he can have a miserable weekend all alone.

I'm not perfect by far, but boy have I tried.

I got him to go fishing this weekend, went with him, asked him to show me how to cast, how to work the lure, etc. And guess what - I absolutely HATE FISHING.

I love to go to the movies - but you know what - he hates that and won't compromise for me.

Point being - it's all give, give, give by me - take, take, take by him and I feel like a maid, therapist, caregiver and sometimes unpaid prostitute.

And...it SUCKS!


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Jarvis said:


> By the way, the thermostat thingy is brilliant. I think I'm going to stop apologising, and keep the door open without necessarily being the first one to walk through it all the time (if you know what I mean). It is in my character to continue to push and fill the gap, but I see now that this is not helping at all! If there is no response, she can only claim I am no longer doing all the work and we know where we are.
> Thanks everyone for your input


You need to do more than that, dude. She's complacent. If you don't snap her out of her complacency somehow, then nothing is going to change. You need to take things to the level where she's uncertain of what you might do next, what you're thinking, and what your motivations are. Otherwise she'll nudge you back to NGhood on the pretext that you're being unreasonable. She wants to feel like she's got you all figured out, and it's your job to convince her that there's more to you than she thought.


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

If I do it right, the intrigue bit may do just that (I hope). I don't want to threaten her, but if I can upset the apple cart by changing my behaviour so that she has to put some effort in (or nothing), I can only hope she will notice the difference. I suspect she will respond verbally, wanting a conversation about what may have changed rather than action, but I suppose it will be a start.
The question is, when I alter my behaviour in response to her, and she asks "are we okay?", how should I respond?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you turn the thermo down far enough - SHE will initiate affection with you. But only if you are able to make it cold without being a jerk. Being jerky is actually the opposite of being indifferent. Because generally jerky behavior is a symptom of anger. And anger is about fear and rejection and not being loved the way you want. ANGER makes it hotter. If you come across as angry she will see that as you NEEDING her. If you make it cold she will see it as you NOT needing her. 

You need to prepare yourself. Your current dynamic sounds like this:
- She sees you as a provider and has maintenance sex with you because she has to so you won't leave
- She doesn't respect you because "you" don't really exist as a partner - because you don't act like an equal. More like a friend who will simply do what she wants

IF you have the discipline to drop the temperature she is going to feel anxious. And she is going to start doing a ton of stuff you don't like to try to get you to "raise" the temperature by assuring her that everything is fine and she doesn't have to make you a high priority. 

Don't let her provoke you. She will likely try any number of things to get you to "engage" in a heated/hot conversation. 

Treat this like the martial arts event it is. Just block punches and kicks but don't punch or kick back no matter what. And leave the room/house if she gets abusive. Just smile and shrug and leave. 



Jarvis said:


> Thank you for all this support - I knew this was a good idea!
> I did write the letter for me, not for her. I wanted to organise my thoughts so I could approach this issue in some kind of sensible manner, though the feelings do get in the way of objectivity.
> I am home tomorrow after a week away, so perhaps an opportunity to be a bit mysterious.
> I don't want to whine, but understand I do know my wife, and she does not respond well to demands. According to her, this is not a problem at all, and that my expectations arise from unreasonable hollywood stereotypes (I have invited her to discuss this with her friends, who would surely dispel this myth, but it would not be in ther nature to be so open even with them, more's the pity!).
> I will turn down the thermostat, and attempt to create some intrigue. I will question any rejection (even to a simple kiss - I hate it when she turns the cheek), with a question but no demand. However, I am scared that the logical conclusion of all this is that she cannot meet my needs and we are not compatible.


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

Phew! I will follow your advice and see where it goes.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I am saddened that a man can not tell his heartfelt feelings to his wife! Yet I understand that the majority here think giving her the letter will not change anything. As a reformed wife who use to deny sex in my marriage for years, I have to admit I don't have the answers except that the spouse needs to want to change. So I am fascinated with these theories you all have about lowering the temperature and manning up. Do these plans make the women insecure and confused about her relationship, enough so that she changes herself to try to hold on to her man. Or is it more along the lines of behavioral modification in which the spouse is re-trained by rewards and consequences?

I would love to see it in action.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
How old was your "youngest" child when you woke up sexually?

How many "heartfelt" conversations did your H have with you over the years about sexually starving him? How did you react to those discussions? And even if he didn't "talk" about it much, how aware were you that he was frustrated in that department?

As for playing with the thermostat the rationale goes like this. 

The reason the LD partner starves the HD partner of a "core" need is because they don't respect/love their HD partner enough to make their needs a high priority. And that includes not loving/respecting someone enough to be brutally honest about why you are denying them sex - if there are things they could do to increase your willingness. 

The starved partner is typically doing this in response:
1. ILY ILY ILY in all 5-6 love languages 
2. Punctuated by brief conversations that go like this "Why can't you love me enough to meet MY physical/sexual need for love"
3. Followed by months/years of (1) above

This allows the LD partner to "hear" 1, and discount 2 as not a very serious request since nothing bad ever happens. 

The thermostat is basically a way to SHOW how you really feel about being treated badly. And in general it applies to any bad behavior not just sexual neglect. AND it basically means you deprioritize the person who has already deprioritized you instead of constantly reinforcing their belief that they are treating you just fine. 

There is no clearer communication than a conscious choice to be less loving. 

That said - it is cruel and abusive to "freeze" someone unless they know why. 

On the rare occasion my W can clearly see her breath inside the house she ALWAYS knows why. 



mary35 said:


> I am saddened that a man can not tell his heartfelt feelings to his wife! Yet I understand that the majority here think giving her the letter will not change anything. As a reformed wife who use to deny sex in my marriage for years, I have to admit I don't have the answers except that the spouse needs to want to change. So I am fascinated with these theories you all have about lowering the temperature and manning up. Do these plans make the women insecure and confused about her relationship, enough so that she changes herself to try to hold on to her man. Or is it more along the lines of behavioral modification in which the spouse is re-trained by rewards and consequences?
> 
> I would love to see it in action. Jarvis, are you comfortable sharing your experience with this?
> 
> ...


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

Jarvis said:


> If I do it right, the intrigue bit may do just that (I hope). I don't want to threaten her, but if I can upset the apple cart by changing my behaviour so that she has to put some effort in (or nothing), I can only hope she will notice the difference. I suspect she will respond verbally, wanting a conversation about what may have changed rather than action, but I suppose it will be a start.
> The question is, when I alter my behaviour in response to her, and she asks "are we okay?", how should I respond?


Ah! My forte: verbal fencing.

The "are we okay?" question is a boobytrap. It implies that the two of you, as a unit, functions independently of the two of you, individually. Not "are you okay?", an expression of concern, but "are we okay?" which is womanspeak for "are you pissed off at me?"

The way to answer it will depend on your wife, of course; your mileage may vary. But the way I handle this (if there is indeed a problem) is by saying, "_We_ might be okay, but _I'm_ not. But I'm not ready to talk about it yet."

That will scare the crap out of her without any implicit threat. Women, particularly wives, HATE it when they don't know what's on your mind. So when you respond with that, she knows a) you're emotionally upset about something b) it has the potential to impact the relationship, probably negatively, even though you assured her that the relationship is fine c) she's definitely a factor in what's going on in your pointy little head, otherwise you wouldn't hesitate to talk about it with her d) she has no earthly idea what it is, and that scares her (Affair? Divorce? Gender re-assignment surgery?) e) she KNOWS there's a relationship discussion coming (which doesn't scare her in and of itself, but this time she doesn't know where it's coming from, what it concerns, how long it will take to get there, or really anything else about it except that her mild-mannered hubby just went (to her mind) batsh!t nuts, and it _might be her fault._) and f) you've stated your preference that you are not ready to discuss it at this point, so that any further discussion on the subject will be unwelcome.

Like I said. It'll scare the hell out of her.

Your wife, I'm guessing, is probably a little bit of a control freak. And nothing keeps a control freak anxious like not being in control. When you say "We are, I'm not, not ready to talk about it" and then step back and observe, you'll see how torqued up she'll get about it. Don't react to that -- keep doing what you're doing. And if she tries to broach the subject, remind her that you'll talk about it when you're ready.

Then she'll get sneaky. She'll start guessing. This is fun. Expect vaguely worded inquiries, delivered very nonchalantly in a slightly raised tone. This is the soft approach. LIke MEM said, do the karate kid thing and calmly, quietly, but firmly block or re-direct her inquiries away from the subject that you're most concerned with i.e. sex and intimacy. She'll start dropping hints to fish for clues. She'll start sneaking around looking for clues. She will be going absolutely crazy trying to figure out what's going on. That's fine -- you don't want her angry, but you do want her anxious. If she's anxious and doesn't understand what you're doing, she's paying attention. That's an important thing.

If you REALLY want to screw with her, leave some bizarre false clues around. Monkey with your phone records by calling Time & Temperature and leaving the line open for twenty minutes every day at 4:00, or order brochures for Russian military academies, or insist on watching every episode of Veronica Mars alone, by yourself, where she can't see you. Don't go too over the top -- you don't want her to commit you, after all. But feel free to throw in a few confusing red herrings. 

Don't even initiate sex while you're doing this. Appear too preoccupied. If you suddenly stop asking her for sex, that's going to raise some ENORMOUS alarm bells -- and if she gets frustrated enough to ask for sex, politely decline. I'm sure she's handed you a million reasons over the years, pick your fave and give it to her. Nothing gets a wife's attention like her husband turning down sex.

After two weeks, she'll be climbing the walls. When she's not expecting it, that's when you need to have a talk with her -- but don't show her your whole hand. Tell her, "We need to talk", which will again scare the hell out of her. Women love saying that, hate hearing it. But, by God, you'll have her complete and undivided attention. That's when you say, 

"I've been doing a lot of thinking, lately. And while I'm not ready to discuss everything with you, I did want to ask you three questions to help inform my thought process. Can you do that?"

Make sure you say "can", not "will". You want to challenge her ability to answer a few questions, not her willingness. And if she says "no", shrug and walk away. She won't though. She'll say yes, eager to know what's been on your mind. And make sure you state the exact number of questions, and stick to that number. That shows forethought, decisiveness, and introspection, all good Alpha traits.

Start off with, "Are you happy in our marriage?"

More fear. More anxiety. Ask it calmly, then shut up and listen to what she says. Look thoughtful. Grow a beard, if you must (actually, I recommend a dramatic change in facial hair -- nothing drives it home into a woman's subconscious that something is wrong if the face she married suddenly looks different -- and if she objects, shrug and say "My prerogative.")
Let her talk until she trails off -- but don't answer her questions. Just say, "I'm more interested in what you have to say."

Eventually, she won't be able to say anything else. You will have learned a lot about her perspective from what she says, but that's secondary. You've narrowed the focus in her mind from "He might have cancer" to "Oh! It's just about the marriage! Oh, wait, crap . . .". That's the important thing. She knows what your freaking about and --worst luck for her -- it's the one area in your life that she's really responsible for. After she stops talking, ask her, 

"If you didn't know me and met me today, for the first time, would you even ask me out? Honestly, please."

That narrows the focus more, and it's a relief to her. Why? Because she's assuming that you're going through some male menopause midlife crisis thing, and it's not really about her so much as you. Expect a condescending pat on the head here, a slightly flirtatious agreement that yes, dear, you're so darn cute and adorable I'd probably ask you out. She'll likely be lying to spare your feelings, but don't worry about it. Don't let her ask you any questions (see above), and again wait until she doesn't have anything else to say, while you're listening thoughtfully. You'll probably learn quite a lot about her when she responds to this. Don't take anything personally. And if you have questions or comments, table them until later. Now is not the time. 

Lastly, sigh (again thoughtfully, and she;ll think "is that a positive? A negative? Did I get the answer right? Is it just about him and his fragile male ego? Is this about this next/last birthday and getting old?") and ask your final question.

"I understand how you feel about our marriage, now. Let me ask you this: if our marriage _was_ in trouble, to what lengths would you be willing to go to save it?" Then just sit back, stare, and wait for the explosion of worry. Assure her that it's just a question, and that it's the last one of the night, and it's just something that you're curious to know, but you really, really want to know her honest answer. Listen carefully -- not to what she says, as much, but _how_ she says it. If she doesn't get up and leave the room in a fit of emotion (and if she does, resist the urge to follow her), she'll tell you plenty by just how she says what she says. Is she defensive? Honestly worried? Sincerely concerned with your welfare and happiness? Angrily accusing you of manipulating her? Watch her. And listen. If she can't think of any because she's too blown away, give her a few hypotheticals:

Would you help me hide a body to save our marriage?
Would you quit your job to save our marriage?
Would you pack up and move to Mexico in the middle of the night to save our marriage?
Would you sleep with a gangster to save our marriage?
Would you change your name to save our marriage?
Would you get in a fistfight to save our marriage?
Would you take a vow of poverty to save our marriage?
Would you cheat on your taxes to save our marriage?
Would you work as a Wal Mart greeter to save our marriage?
Would you never speak to your family again to save our marriage?
Would you take heroin to save our marriage?

One unlikely scenario after another. Each one sounds ludicrous on the surface, and her head will be reeling as she tries to figure out what's going on. Keep changing the nature of the suggestions, so she can't pin you to any one thing. She might even decide it's fun, after a while. But the goal here is to introduce her to the concept that a) something's wrong with her marriage that may require her to b) step WAAAAAY outside of her comfort zone, and she will prepare herself accordingly. Indeed, she'll start getting worked up and demanding to know what you're talking about.

Respond, calmly, with "I'm not ready to discuss it all, just yet. I'll let you know when I am. But thanks for the input -- you've helped me out a lot." Then give her a kiss on the cheek, go to bed, and DON'T MENTION IT AGAIN. If you do it right, the whole experience will leave her confused, anxious, worried . . . but intrigued. You haven't threatened anything, you haven't done anything, you haven't asked her to do anything, you're just . . . being weird, and it involves her and the marriage. Red Alert.

After about two more weeks of this type of odd behavior (in conjunction with a lower temperature and you generally manning up) she's going to be going crazy. The goal is not to torture, however, merely intrigue. After about two weeks of constant weirdness, invite her out to dinner on a date, by surprise. A simple text: "Our reservations are for 7:30. Please be ready to be picked up by 7:00. ****tail attire and evening makeup will be fine." will do most of the magic.

She'll wonder if she forgot an anniversary, or your birthday, or some other major event, or maybe a company thing, a seminar, a wedding reception, ohmygod WHERE ARE WE GOING TONIGHT? WHY? WHAT DO I WEAR? OH CRAP, WHAT DID I FORGET THAT HE REMEMBERED? If she's as much of a control freak as I'm guessing, she won't ask you directly, for fear of being caught out unawares. If she actually does, just send the exact same text back to her again, as many times as she asks. 
But you can bet she'll be ready by 7:00 when you pull up. 

Heck, rent a car for the occasion, really freak her out. She'll be totally on eggshells, but don't say more than you have to -- just make sure that you tell her she looks great. Maybe even impishly pinch her butt, which you know will piss her off, but why not?

The car ride will be tense, but try to stay calm and relaxed. Drive to one of the nicest restaurants in town, where you've made reservations. By the time you're actually seated, her heart will be about to burst in anticipation. Make sure you order an expensive bottle of wine. 

Then have dinner with your wife.

Of course she's expecting "I have cancer", "I'm having an affair", "I'm leaving you", "I'm Gay", "I'm a man trapped in a woman's body", "I want you to get a boob job", "I'm quitting my job and becoming a Tibetan monk", just about any wild thing will pop up. But just focus on being relaxed and having a good time. 

She'll finally ask you what the hell is going on in a way you won't be able to ignore. There might be tears. Tears are a bonus. She's invested, she's emotionally worked up, and she's paying absolute attention to every word that's coming out of your mouth.

"I"ve been doing a lot of thinking about our future, lately."

Terror. It's not cancer. CRAP.

"I can't help but feel that there are some imbalances and issues in our relationship. I'm sure you do too. And since we both are at a point in our lives where we value our marriage, then I think it's important to really give the situation a lot of thoughtful consideration, don't you?"

Of course she does. She's terrified, but she can't very well tell you not to think carefully about your marriage. But she won't say any more, because you haven't committed to anything yet. You're just thinking, and she can't fault you for that.

"I'm going to continue to think about these things. A lot. I'm at a point where I need to seriously think about what's going to happen for the rest of my life. If I want to be content with what I have . . . or if I want more."

She'll assure you that you should be content with what you have. How could you ask for more? Aren't things perfect? AREN'T THEY? OMG, ARE THINGS NOT PERFECT? WHAT DO YOU WANT? WHO ARE YOU, AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH MY NICE GUY HUSBAND?

Don't let that be an option, really. No, you're not happy, or you wouldn't be having this talk. So you're going to think about things, and observe things in your life, and you're going to start making some decisions soon. Tonight, you reveal, was a kind of test as to whether or not you could successfully execute a date with her, or if the relationship issues are so dysfunctional that even something that simple, something any 18 year old could pull off, is a problem. You had to know that for a solid fact, not conjecture. And you're going to be doing other things in the near future so that you can establish for yourself, to your satisfaction, just how you want the rest of your life to go. Some of them might seem strange, some of them might be confusing, but make no mistake: you are observing, and you are thinking, and (most importantly) you're apparently willing to step outside of your previous comfort zone to make that happen.

There's no further discussion of the matter -- that's how it is. And you're basing your conclusions, in part, in how she behaves. Don't give her any clue as to how you want her to act. Just put the ball in her court and be your (new) self.

Then have a really, really good dinner. Drink wine. Order dessert for a change. Live a little. Don't worry about the cost. 

Afterwards, take her out for a drive someplace nice, ask her about her life and work and stuff, keep it light but romantic. Then take her home and do your manly best to have sex with her . . . on your terms. 

If the whole thing collapses, don't panic. It happens. And it should be instructive.

But she'll never, ever think she's got you all figured out ever again. She'll be intrigued. She'll be relieved. And if at the end of the night she is angry, and feels manipulated, and wants to fight, don't. Thank her for a lovely evening and go sleep on the couch. And when she tries to bring it up the next day, just look mysterious and say you found the evening "instructive".


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> How old was your "youngest" child when you woke up sexually?
> 
> How many "heartfelt" conversations did your H have with you over the years about sexually starving him? How did you react to those discussions? And even if he didn't "talk" about it much, how aware were you that he was frustrated in that department?
> ...


My youngest was in college. I don't remember any heartfelt conversations with my husband about sex. He was definitely (and still is) a classic "nice guy" and we never discussed sex. I was fully aware that he was frustrated - and back then I didn't care because I didn't see it as a "core" need. I saw it as a want! He wanted sex and I didn't. Yes I was selfish and controlling in that area. Looking back I can see that I felt that my life was out of control in so many other areas that I had a right to control what I could. Clearly not a recipe for a happy and satisfying marriage for either of us. And it was not! Sexual intimacy has definitely added a new dimension and richness that was not there before.

Honestly - it wasn't that I didn't love or respect him enough to tell him why I didn't want sex. I didn't know myself at the time and I certainly did not know what would make me more willing! But I can see now that I was denying a "core" need and it robbed my marriage of not only physical closeness and intimacy but also emotional closeness and intimacy. I was the guilty party who did it and I will regret those wasted years the rest of my life. 

I can see your point of view and I can also see how this could work. It sounds like the thermostat plan is basically a behavior modification technique. What would you say the success rate is?

If communication is part of your plan, do you advise the men to start off with explaining what they want and what will happen if it doesn't happen? Or do they they just jump in and freeze first and expect her to figure it out?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is brilliant but terribly flawed. I would NOT want someone to do this to ME. So I would NOT do it to them. 

That simple. 

Turning down the thermostat. Perfectly clean, perfectly clear what is happening. You are deprioritizing someone. The natural end of that spectrum is they no longer matter to you and you divorce them. The entire time you are doing it - they know it is because YOU are not prioritizing their needs. So they get to make a totally grown up choice. 




IanIronwood said:


> Ah! My forte: verbal fencing.
> 
> The "are we okay?" question is a boobytrap. It implies that the two of you, as a unit, functions independently of the two of you, individually. Not "are you okay?", an expression of concern, but "are we okay?" which is womanspeak for "are you pissed off at me?"
> 
> ...


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

_"But she'll never, ever think she's got you all figured out ever again. She'll be intrigued. She'll be relieved. And if at the end of the night she is angry, and feels manipulated, and wants to fight, don't. Thank her for a lovely evening and go sleep on the couch. And when she tries to bring it up the next day, just look mysterious and say you found the evening "instructive"
_

IanIronwood - I am totally intrigued now! This almost sounds like boot camp. Break her down, make her totally insecure, and then re-train her. Do I have it now? lol

Seriously - I can see the possibilities in this plan. But I wonder - how easy is it for a man that has been a beta all of his marriage to all of a sudden change like this and develop an Alpha personality? I have a feeling its not very easy. What happens if they fall back on there old ways during this process. Is the game over or can they recover?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

_"This is brilliant but terribly flawed. I would NOT want someone to do this to ME. So I would NOT do it to them."_

What is the flaw? How does it work in your plan, Mem11363?


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> Okay Blue Moon - here's one for you.
> 
> I have the same issue as the OP, but I'm the wife and my husband behaves like his wife.
> 
> ...



Since a guy's marching orders in this situation are to take control, I'd advise you to _give_ control. I'm not sure if he makes many decisions or not, but put the onus on him to; this could be anything from where you two are going for dinner to how to navigate your way out of a jam.

For instance, today my wife's car cut off on her while she was in the middle of an intersection. She was scared, embarrassed, and angry because other vehicles were honking or being rude. She called me while I was at work, and I quickly had to jump into "decision mode." Reason being, we JUST got the car out of the shop yesterday, so something obviously wasn't fixed correctly.

On the drive over, my mind was racing thinking about towing fees, whether I should take it back to that shop or try a totally new one, how to calm my wife down (I was on the phone with her). Long story short, I arrived, calmed her down as best as possible (at this point she got it to start and pulled into a nearby gas station, but she was still bothered about it), and calmly laid out the gameplan: I'LL drive the car to a shop a few blocks from here, because I don't care if it dies out and people honk, f*ck if they don't like it. I'll place myself in the uncomfortable position. Told her to follow behind me just in case it dies out before I make it. I didn't want to waste money calling a tow truck when I could just risk the 1/4-mile drive up the street to a different and hopefully better shop.

Anyway, I digress. My point is, you want your husband placed in these types of roles, so you should encourage that type of action from him. That doesn't mean you have to be a damsel in distress, but you can encourage him taking control, and when he pulls off a take charge "man move", let him know as his woman that you appreciate it, and he's the man. (Wife has been super appreciative, affectionate and upbeat since, I have an idea how the night's going to end :smthumbup

Encourage a light, playful, flirty environment. Find ways to initiate or have him initiate impromptu wrestling matches, tickle fights, and when he responds accordingly treat it like he did something sexy. If he starts embracing this, challenge him a little bit, urging him to dominate you. For instance, if you do or say something he doesn't like (in a playful context of course), get sassy and say something like "What are you going to do, spank me?." Push those man buttons so that his only response is to issue playful consequences... And when he does, make him feel like the man. Get creative with it but make it almost sexual, as if he hit your "spot" by responding the way he did.

The key is to recongnize and elevate sexual tension throughout the course of the day. It can go from a peck, to flirty comments, to "accidentally" rubbing up against him as you pass by and giving an "Oops!" with a smile, to playfighting (with plenty of laughter and teasing), to passionate kisses then pulling away and focusing on something else (hoping and encouraging him to give chase), etc. Let it build.

While deferring to him and playing the more submissive role, don't be afraid to make bold moves yourself. If that means going down on him out of nowhere, so be it. If it means walking into the room in nothing but pumps while he's watching TV, getting on all fours and telling him you want it rough and hard for the best 2 minutes he has to offer, great. When doing the latter, bonus points if you pull away after the time limit is up, encouraging him to say "F that" and not play by the rules, and pull you back to him. Once you can start pulling little things like that off, that means he's into it. You want to tease and hook him in, and encourage him by being his sexually responsive nympho queen whenever he takes the bait!

Sorry for rambling, hopefully some of this makes sense and you can tweak and apply it to your situation.


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

mary35 said:


> _"But she'll never, ever think she's got you all figured out ever again. She'll be intrigued. She'll be relieved. And if at the end of the night she is angry, and feels manipulated, and wants to fight, don't. Thank her for a lovely evening and go sleep on the couch. And when she tries to bring it up the next day, just look mysterious and say you found the evening "instructive"
> _
> 
> IanIronwood - I am totally intrigued now! This almost sounds like boot camp. Break her down, make her totally insecure, and then re-train her. Do I have it now? lol
> ...


Easy? Who said it was easy? It's hard as hell. That's the point.

You might see this as cruel, I suppose. You may think a more gradual solution is best, and in some cases it might be. The fact is, we are creatures of habit, and in order to break habits we must first be receptive, we must be attentive, and we must be disciplined. You can't gradually work up to Alpha. That's like deciding to work out and then going only a half hour a week. You're not working out, you're pretending. You're either doing it -- maybe badly, probably imperfectly, certainly painfully -- but still trying, or you aren't. 

Sure, do a few trials to show you some possibilities. Sit down and map out your manning up and hope she responds positively. But once you decide to make a profound psychological change in yourself, you don't ease your way into it. Not if you want to make an impression.

Then there's the discipline involved in keeping it up -- if you've been a Beta for your whole life, that's really darn appealing, especially when you realize that being Alpha means sometimes putting up with some severely uncomfortable things and some unpleasant realizations about yourself and your marriage. But as I said, that's the point. 

Cranking up your Alpha means voluntarily and willingly giving up the easy way out, and embracing the pain of holding yourself accountable. It means challenging yourself -- and it means risking failure. Heck, it pretty much guarantees some failures, but the persistence and persevering in how you deal with such defeats is what ultimately brings up the Alpha. Being more Alpha means accepting the consequences of your action without fear, and pushing your limits despite the suffering you may have to endure. In other words, no pain, no gain.

But it won't happen in a vacuum, either. She's going to be right there, watching, criticizing, convincing him to go back to the way he was even while she wants the man he's trying to become. And subjecting yourself to your wife's criticism and advice while you're trying to rediscover your masculinity is an exercise in futility. Your wife isn't going to automatically be a cheerleader for your efforts, and since she's the ultimate recipient of your actions, including her in the process isn't going to work. 

Since the ultimate goal is transformation of both parties, then actively nudging your wife in that direction, or at least breaking her out of the habits that have helped lead to the present state of affairs, is highly desirable. You can sit back, man up, and passively hope that she comes to her senses, or you can take a more active role in the transformation -- which is a more Alpha approach. 

What I recommended was a simple plan of action, in conjunction with other positive developments, that will ultimately lead to a better relationship, and a better sex life. Now a gazillion things could go wrong between here and there, and some of them will. You accept that, learn from it, and move on without dwelling on it. But you make a plan and you work the plan. Otherwise you're flailing.


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## Sanity (Mar 7, 2011)

This letter reads like a frustrated lesbian wrote it. Some women are just like Roman candles when it comes to sex. Great fun while it lasts but short lived. You have to decide how long you are going to put up with this crap. Sex is essential to most sane men. Time to sit down with the little lady and have an honest conversation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
As you correctly pointed out, only a skilled and seasoned alpha could pull off Ian's strategy. It is easily described, and technically difficult to execute as it requires the ability to do a lot of "real time" maneuvering. 

But mainly - you are causing someone intense anxiety over a multi-week period without telling them why. 



mary35 said:


> _"This is brilliant but terribly flawed. I would NOT want someone to do this to ME. So I would NOT do it to them."_
> 
> What is the flaw? How does it work in your plan, Mem11363?


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## IanIronwood (Jan 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> As you correctly pointed out, only a skilled and seasoned alpha could pull off Ian's strategy. It is easily described, and technically difficult to execute as it requires the ability to do a lot of "real time" maneuvering.
> 
> But mainly - you are causing someone intense anxiety over a multi-week period without telling them why.


Isn't that, more or less, what she's been doing to the OP for years?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Actually not. He posted that he was ok with this awful sex life up until recently. 

At risk of oversimplifying I try to limit tactics to:
- Being less available (physically/emotionally - making it colder)
- Being more attractive - working out, working on your attitude, your self control

I freely admit there are a LONG list of behaviors that may/will increase desire but which are total head games with the other person. This isn't: "dating with the goal of getting laid regardless of the collateral damage you do to your target"

This is "trying to create a healthy sex life in a manner that is overall fair to both of you". 

Turning down the thermostat might sound like a parlor trick. It isn't. If you consciously deprioritize someone for an extended period you will start to love yourself more and love them less. You keep driving the bus in that direction it radically changes the relationship dynamic from: 
"I will do anything for you not matter how bad you treat me loving you forever don't ever leave me even though my friends and family all hate you"
To:
Sending your partner a text on a Thursday afternoon: "Going to happy hour tonight - don't wait up. And going to Half Moon Bay with friends this weekend - leaving right from work tomorrow see you early next week"






IanIronwood said:


> Isn't that, more or less, what she's been doing to the OP for years?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The easiest ways to create desire actually involve attacking the other person's self esteem so they begin to feel lucky you are even considering being with them. Quick - easy - dirty. 

Now - take yourself back in time. Imagine your H had done two things:
- Figured out he had become totally beta (conflict avoidant) with you. And fixed that. This would have likely involved some level of very uncomfortable conversation along the lines of: "We need to work to fix our sex life - I am sure I am part of the problem - but if you won't work with me to fix it the marriage is at risk"
- Stopped doing all those things that reassure a partner that you accept their current behavior. For instance - when you were willing to have "lame" sex with him - he could have stopped at the start and said "oh - married sex - no thanks - let me know when you are ready to act like you did before we got married" and then gotten up and slept in another room. 

And that last bit - that isn't a head game. That is enforcing a boundary. The boundary is "I am not going to participate in an act where it is so clear my partner is just barely tolerating me". 

I tend to see this in terms of "betting the marriage to greatly improve the marriage". 

AND this is not a male vs. female thing. This is not even a HD/LD thing. This is a "I make your needs a high priority and you don't reciprocate and that is not going to continue". 




mary35 said:


> _"This is brilliant but terribly flawed. I would NOT want someone to do this to ME. So I would NOT do it to them."_
> 
> What is the flaw? How does it work in your plan, Mem11363?


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## Jarvis (Mar 17, 2011)

Ive been thinking about the 'married sex' thing for a while, and am very interested that you suggest it in your post. She would go apesh**t, but it would be very interesting to go through it and see what happens.
When I have been nice and cool for a few weeks (unfortunately, it will take more than 2 weeks for her to be 'climbing the walls', as two weeks without sex is quite normal in our marriage).
The one thing I can't do is remove myself from responsibilities to my daughter etc. I don't think being totally unavailable to help with her and other things is going to endear my wife to me at all!
Stage 1 began last night. Like I said I've been away all week and I was tired


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

IH8theFriendZone said:


> I think the letter is extremely well-worded and heartfelt as well as an invaluable tool to straighten out your thoughts. But I don't think you should edit out the affair part and here's why: I don't think you should ever give this letter to your wife. Use it for what you've used it for...an outlet and a vehicle to organize your thoughts.


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Everything this poster penned is probably your best answer & direction. I also feel pouring our hearts out in a letter is a hugely powerful tool for us to learn about ourselves, sort out our strong emotions & get direction. All my writing has helped ME come to a better place, every struggle I have EVER had, writing has helped me overcome it, and communicate better. 

I disagree that your letter is fake or you are being dishonest somehow, I felt nothing but genuine-ness and love flowing from your every word. There was a Vulnerability there. Had my husband expressed himself to me LIKE THAT back in the day when he wanted more sex (he skipped all communcation about it!!! One thing that angers me ), I KNOW ME well enough to know -that would have MOVED *ME * and I would have taken action to correct myself. It would have been VERY OUT of character for him to do such a thing mind you, which would have made it even more MOVING- for me. His lack of expressing his needs back then, I will always feel was our biggest problem. 

IF you have tried talking to her before, sharing your heart in this way, senistive as these things are -and it has gotten you NO WHERE but more of the same, then handing this letter to her is NOT your answer at all. 

Buy this book Amazon.com: No More Mr. Nice Guy! (9780762415335): Robert A. Glover: Books , read MEM's links, go here & study -it works for many women. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html 



I have to agree with Ian when he said this: 


IanIronwood said:


> I'm just sick of the dichotomy between what women say they want and what they actually want. Accountability is cool. Hypocrisy is not.


MANY women say 1 thing but it is not reality at all, their actions & reactions prove otherwise. They FORK the sensitive vulnerable man before them. I would not do that. I personally LOVE the MUSH and desire the heartfelt communicaton -even if it would be something I needed to change to help the relationship. IF my husband wasn't like this to some degree, It would Pi** me off, I would be seeking for that in another man. 

*It really all depends on your woman, as none of us are the same !*


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Jarvis,
You have a long way to go. The "married sex" thing might work. But it likely won't. You are doing what most "nice guys" do. I "can't" drop the ball with my daughter. Of COURSE you can't. This has nothing to do with your daughter. Continue to be a great father. Figure out what your WIFE needs/wants from you and stop doing THAT. Maybe it is acts of service. Or saying ILY. Or something else. But it likely isn't declining sex. Or - if you do the impact will be small. 

In terms of physical affection/sex the average woman can wait the average man out without even breaking a sweat. 




Jarvis said:


> Ive been thinking about the 'married sex' thing for a while, and am very interested that you suggest it in your post. She would go apesh**t, but it would be very interesting to go through it and see what happens.
> When I have been nice and cool for a few weeks (unfortunately, it will take more than 2 weeks for her to be 'climbing the walls', as two weeks without sex is quite normal in our marriage).
> The one thing I can't do is remove myself from responsibilities to my daughter etc. I don't think being totally unavailable to help with her and other things is going to endear my wife to me at all!
> Stage 1 began last night. Like I said I've been away all week and I was tired


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree: Everything this poster penned is probably your best answer & direction. I also feel pouring our hearts out in a letter is a hugely powerful tool for us to learn about ourselves, sort out our strong emotions & get direction. All my writing has helped ME come to a better place, every struggle I have EVER had, writing has helped me overcome it, and communicate better.
> 
> I disagree that your letter is fake or you are being dishonest somehow, I about it!!!


You are referrng to my post and you appear to have missed it's meaning and even added words that were not there. 

The letter is lovely heartfelt and well written but who cares. He is desperatly unhappy and his letter seems to indicate that he is happy except for one small thing. That is a misrepresentation of his true feeling as revealed by his subsequent posts. The reason for the letter is nestled among beautiful pink roses, - the man is not having love affirming physical intimacy with his wife that is big. In my opinion, he does himself a disservice by softening the communication to his wife. He is experiencing raw pain and there is no reason why his wife needs to be protected from the raw nature of his dilemma by fuzzy language and beautiful prose. 

There was no personal attack on him or  acusation that he was a phony just that he was obscuring the real reasons for the letter and needed to honestly protray the raw nature of his unhappiness for his benifit. I stand by what I said he sould not send the letter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Catherine, I agree with you, since he has *already *talked to her about this saying here (I just wonder how those talks went, if this type of emotion came into them)...." I have raised this with her before and she insists there is no problem here. Expecting sex more than once a fortnight with someone who actually gives something back is unreasonable, apparently". 

I just don't find his letter fictional. I think he poured his heart out in it & I can believe besides this issue that he is happy with his marraige as he stated. But you are right, this is a HUGE !!! I must have missed where you felt it was heartfelt. You say who cares - His wife *should *care. 

My guess is WHEN he has tried communicating with her, it was NOT from the depths of his soul -to what her rejection is doing to him emotionally, even spiritually, *but more out of frustration*.


Not many have the ability to communicate on this level , especially men! So a letter such as this MAY have the ability reach her where others things have not - to OPEN HER EYES to this very sensitive side of her husband. His struggle of not feeling loved & desired, how her lack of understanding him & his needs in this area is crippling him and the sadness that overtakes him. 



Believe me, I am so NOT against getting assertive & the He** with the roses - if I was this man, I would have raised the freakin' roof by now, even a month of this would have been too much, forget years. My husband may be like this man, but I am NOT. All kinds of aggressive asserive things would have been flying out of my mouth to let her know HOW HUGE this is, I would have spared nothing. 

For someone like myself, writing a heartfelt letter exposing my sensitive emotions would be far superier to reaching my husband's understanding WHEN I AM FRUSTRATED & start figting with him. I know because I have written him letters. He finally "got" things where , when I was mad, I was not conveying nearly as effectively. 

*I dont know how Jarvis is, if he gets upset & frustrated when he talks to her or not -and feels after the fact, I didnt express myself in the manner I wanted too ? 

* He is already backing away from her -not nagging. Although he needs to *NOT* fear her rejection -He needs to work on that part " No chance of my over-loving her. If anything I have learned to keep away due to fear of rejection" 

What is his next step. If talking has got him nowhere, if backing off & leaving her alone has got him nowhere. 

I am only giving my personal opionion as a woman - I would WANT the heartfelt letter, and I would CARE ! This is where I am coming from. * I am NOT saying it will help HER. * 

But if such letters, communication, and MANNING UP (Yes, be more assertive in this!) do NOTHING for this man to arouse her to take some action.... pursue an education on how men FEEL loved (many great books for this), for her to WANT to work on these things -together-, to show some enthusiam in the bedroom on a consistent happening basis, I think he needs to leave her, find another who can fullfill him deeply in this way - as this is meant to be a part of a loving marraige and he is suffering. 

Sex may be less than 10% of marraige, but when you are starving, it feels like 90%.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
Since you all keep talking about his letter I will give you my take on it. It has the high emotion and contradictory flavor to it that I would expect from a very young person, not a mature male. 

Way too much drama even in the name of the letter - "last chance" letter? Followed by a half assed threat of an affair bracketed by the theme of "but I love you so much".

If I had to summarize the letter it would be "Losing my mind because you just aren't that into me". 





SimplyAmorous said:


> Catherine, I agree with you, since he has *already *talked to her about this saying here (I just wonder how those talks went, if this type of emotion came into them)...." I have raised this with her before and she insists there is no problem here. Expecting sex more than once a fortnight with someone who actually gives something back is unreasonable, apparently".
> 
> I just don't find his letter fictional. I think he poured his heart out in it & I can believe besides this issue that he is happy with his marraige as he stated. But you are right, this is a HUGE !!! I must have missed where you felt it was heartfelt. You say who cares - His wife *should *care.
> 
> ...


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SA I meant who cares that it was a nice letter not who cares about his pain. When I read some posters wrote that it was a nicely written letter I meant who cares if it is nice, it does not reflect his pain therefore, I think it does more harm to his case than good.

No, I don't dismiss his pain in any sense. When I read about these situation it just puts me in mind of my husband and I kind of get upset because I know this is how he felt and it kills me to think about it sometimes.

MEM you are too funny. :iagree:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> No, I don't dismiss his pain in any sense. When I read about these situation it just puts me in mind of my husband and I kind of get upset because I know this is how he felt and it kills me to think about it sometimes.


And I appreciate THIS response, but at the same time, I see how you (always) agree with MEM, although heartfelt - it speaks the man's immaturity. . 


So what I see here is this: differences of opionion.


I LOVE sensitive men, I appreciate the emotion -even if it is turned up at times, I WANT the vulnerability in my man , even if Alphas may feel it is "too much"-"too needy" "too pathetic" --- so instead pull back, walk away , go play Golf with the buddies, go to the gym. Maybe I am speaking out of my own experience (which MUCH of us do) -my husband HID his emotional HURT --so this is why I would LOVE a letter like this. (again, it is MY opionion)

I also know Mary35 is like me -we have talked behind the scenes about our husbands, they are similar in personality. We married beta men, we love them. She too liked the letter. It would not make her "look down" on her husband. 

Ih8thefriendzone, I know is struggling to be MORE Alpha (I hope he does not go overboard), he can admit it was heartfelt /genuine - I still think he has the best advice on here -and it is MEM's advice for the most part, but he is not saying the man is immature for feeling this way & expressing himself. He was respectful. And helpful. 

From what I gather Catherine, you are married to an Alpha (?), this is what you have always been attracted too, so it makes sense your agreeing with Mem all the time. I have gotten the impression you have very little respect for Betas, but maybe I am wrong. 

All the Alpha Men on here feels/teaches emotional communication is pretty much worthless to ALL women (which paints me as freak for not being that type of woman). They teach that it is a sign of weakness, neediness & immaturity & the dreaded "beta"-descent into sexless hell. 

The solution - hold the emotions (this is being in control), only show playful confident banter, edginess & simply REMOVING yourself from your woman when she is not giving you the response you want. As this will undoubably cause her to come to you & create "desire". Black & white theology for all. 

I've read the whole thermostat thing. I dont deny this works. 

Would I want my man to act like that. NO! If he wrote something like that, felt strongly at the time of his writing-even with some baby ass imaturity, I would want to be clued in to it. *That is me*. I am the freak on the forum who prefers openly sensitive men though. 

I do agree there is problems with it - Saying it is HIS problem instead of THEIR problem. I think this was Your original point and I agree. Could be more assertive in deliverance. Your are right. 

I accually read this letter to my Husband this morning, his 1st response was "I feel sorry for the guy", I asked if he felt it was immature, he said "no" , he felt it was very healtfelt and a good letter, but he did say he should not have mentioned the affair part at the end. 

It doesn't matter what any of us think, only what may awaken Jarvi's wife.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
There is no sure answer here. It is possible his W would respond well to a "well written" letter. This letter itself - while heartfelt - is a complete fing mess. 

IF you are going to write a letter like this - with the hope that it might improve things it sort of needs to look like this:

1. Rename it - "last chance" is UBER THREATENING. Sounds like the marital version of a mortgage foreclosure.
2. It needs to be shorter - really it does - in these situations LESS is more.
3. It needs to basically say that:
- physical affection - including sex is necessary for him to "feel" loved
- he needs her to work with him to improve their sex life and that may include her having some awkward but brutally honest conversations with him about what turns her on/and off
4. He is starting to feel less love for her and is afraid he will end up loving her but not being "in love" with her and that he is worried about the impact that will have on the stability of the marriage

He needs to write it. Memorize it and then actually go have that conversation face to face. And then he needs to gradually turn down the temperature. If after a couple months - no real improvement he needs to give her the letter - except it has one little mod - the version he actually "gives her". And that mod goes at the top:

"We had a conversation a couple months ago that was critically important to me. Nothing has changed. Basically the letter below is what we talked about. I am now seriously concerned about the viability of our marriage - it seems you are not willing to make a good faith effort to consider my needs - and that just isn't workable". 

original letter here.....

So this starts with a conversation that while intense won't be that big a deal if she makes an effort. Two months later the letter actually becomes a "last chance" message even though it should not be labelled that way. 


FWIW: For someone who always agrees with me - Catherine flamed me fairly hard a few weeks ago . Something about me being mean to my W.




SimplyAmorous said:


> And I appreciate THIS response, but at the same time, I see how you (always) agree with MEM, although heartfelt - it speaks the man's immaturity. .
> 
> 
> So what I see here is this: differences of opionion.
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I agree with all of your points Mem - wise advice. 

What he calls this letter -I felt had zero significance since it was just what he has listed on this forum- which she will never lay eyes on, why I didnt comment on that part at all. 

After all , we need to catch the attention of our "threads" somehow.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SA My husband is dominant and I am submissive am submissive. If I understand the alpha/ beta dialectic, he is neither. I am very opinionated and sometimes not too grounded. I need someone who is naturally able to deal with someone like me and not back down. 

I am not sure what I have said that gives the impression that I don't repect sensitive men but my husband is sensitive, very communicative and touchy feely. He is calm under fire, resilient and sure of himself. He happens to have been born with that make-up, i have known him for a long time and i know he did not make himself that way, that he always was even when he was 10 years old.. I think of beta men as feeling and resilient and I find that desirable. 

I think of alpha men as silent, detached and controlling, i don't find that in the lest bit desirable. 

I do have a tendency to agree with much of MEM advice to men in pian, who have given up on the validity of their needs because they have adjusted themselves to to survive in intolerable situations. I think the only was out is to shift their focus from fear to faith and confidence in themselves. 

I think if they balance the power in the relationship from total aquesence to their spouse to a more shared responsibility to help their wives regain confidence in them. I don't agree with everything MEM says, sometimes I think he goes too far with manipulation and I tell him so. 

I did not think I flamed him but knowing me I prosily did. I have a bias in favor of woman especially married woman so I tend to get upset when I think that they are being treated unfairly. I have see that many times on this forum and I am not shy to say it. I think I pissed off many male posters.

I don't think I can be pigeon holed into some rigid phyloshopy, In fact I dislike blind adherence to any school of thought that requires swallowing a whole groups of ways of thinking. 

I must have said something that made you angry and for that I am sorry. I really don't recognize myself in your description of me. It is possible that there are aspects of me that I am revealing that I don't know are there.. However, is not that common? We all distort reality to one degree or another - we see the world through the prism of our own belief system. We can't help it, it's the only one we know. 

As we mature, it is communication, and the ability to put ourselves into the shoes of others (empathy) that widens our appreciation of the realities of people with different experiences from our own and I think is the hallmark of a thinking, feeling, good person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

What happened to the OP? I wonder if he finds any of this helpful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I suspect Jarvis is quietly observing the dialogue, trying to figure out the best way to find a solution to his problem! I also suspect he could be offended by some of it!  I hope not as there is some good stuff here. 

The bottom line is everyone is different. Women are different, men are different, and marriages are different. There are numerous philosophies on this site about how to solve the problems caused by one spouse not feeling the same about sex as the other. I am sure it can be very confusing to those trying to find a solution. 

Jarvis - you know your wife, you know your marriage, and you know yourself. As you read be careful and keep in mind your end goal. Ask yourself, will this technique be helpful or could it hinder what I really want to accomplish with my wife. 

I think that it is OK to set up, explain, and enforce your boundaries about what is and is not important in your relationship. The problem many times is that we allow our spouses to dictate to us and try to make us believe that what we think is important is not! While it may not have the same importance to our spouse, they do not have a right to negate its importance to us! In many ways - I think that is what a lot of these techniques are about. They are just various ways to convey what you need and want in your marriage and then show that you are serious about what you feel is important. HOW you do it will depend upon you and your wife's personality. You know what you have tried and what has not worked. There is good advice given here - if you can gleam through the stuff that is not helpful to you. No one is right or wrong and no way is the perfect solution for everyone. Look for the solution that makes the most sense for you!

Personally, I still believe that honest, open, and loving communication can not hurt any marriage. And in spite of what others said - I think your letter was great. Even if you don't give it to her, I hope it was helpful in helping you understand your feelings better. 

SA is right, I think there is nothing wrong with openly sensitive men. As she said, my husband is very much one and I would not trade him for anything. He is perfect for me and my personality. The problems we had in our marriage concerning sex where caused by me - not him! Sometimes I feel like the blame gets put on the spouse that is being denied their needs and not the spouse that is the denier. I take full responsibility for what I did to my husband and to our marriage and am eternally grateful my husband stuck it out long enough for me to realize my huge mistake.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Catherine602 said:


> SA My husband is dominant and I am submissive am submissive. If I understand the alpha/ beta dialectic, he is neither. I am very opinionated and sometimes not too grounded. I need someone who is naturally able to deal with someone like me and not back down.


This is completly fasninating to me, allow me to dissect. You are submissive (I assume you mean in the bedroom as I recall you saying you struggle with initiating even) -but darn you ARE aggressive on this forum, never sparing that opionion. I am not saying I dislike it at all. I am the same way, I try to tone it down some & use tact, I've had to hold my keyboard a # of times. If I said the 1st things I THINK sometimes they would probably BAN me. So I understand, I also need a man who can handle me , mine calms me, soothes me, can laugh at my excitable moments. These things work well. 

Maybe I just dont get it yet - I assumed DOMINATE automaically meant ALPHA. But you say your husband is dominate but NOT Alpha. I have alot to understand yet. 



Catherine602 said:


> I think of beta men as feeling and resilient and I find that desirable.
> 
> I think of alpha men as silent, detached and controlling, i don't find that in the lest bit desirable.


 It is nice to hear such a strong voice feel this way :iagree: I must have you mixed up with someone else, or maybe it was comments about men who are not dominate in the bedroom, but it makes sense you NEED that -given you are a submissive. 



Catherine602 said:


> I do have a tendency to agree with much of MEM advice to men in pain, who have given up on the validity of their needs because they have adjusted themselves to to survive in intolerable situations. I think the only was out is to shift their focus from fear to faith and confidence in themselves.


 I agree with this too -I think the JABS to these nice men stick out to me like a soar thumb - but I totally AGREE they NEED to stand their ground & not take any more abuse! I am a female & wouldnt put up with a fraction of what some men do. 

But like Mary35 said, It is sometimes us women who ARE the problem, these good men marry Bit**es. But there is NO aggressive group to jump on the women to change their behavior, it is always about the man, like these women are just fine. I think I have a BIAS here - to jump on the women! 

We ALL have BIAS's for whatever reason, usually our experiences. Like you say here


> We all distort reality to one degree or another - we see the world through the prism of our own belief system. We can't help it, it's the only one we know.





Catherine602 said:


> I don't think I can be pigeon holed into some rigid phyloshopy, In fact I dislike blind adherence to any school of thought that requires swallowing a whole groups of ways of thinking.


I couldn't agree more. :iagree:



Catherine602 said:


> As we mature, it is communication, and the ability to put ourselves into the shoes of others (empathy) that widens our appreciation of the realities of people with different experiences from our own and I think is the hallmark of a thinking, feeling, good person.


 To this I say AMEN. 

Sorry Jarvis for these interruptions-- I hope you come back & let us know what is happening !


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## HelloooNurse (Apr 12, 2010)

I think if you're that close to dumping your wife because of sex, then you might as well go and get the divorce papers. Set both of you free. Writing a grovelling letter is not going to magically make her want to root you more.


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## Syrum (Feb 22, 2011)

IanIronwood said:


> Ah! My forte: verbal fencing.
> 
> The "are we okay?" question is a boobytrap. It implies that the two of you, as a unit, functions independently of the two of you, individually. Not "are you okay?", an expression of concern, but "are we okay?" which is womanspeak for "are you pissed off at me?"
> 
> ...


I hate this advice.

Game playing sucks. this kind of thing would leave me feeling indifferent and cold. I would feel he didn't love me, start to question our relationship and wonder why he couldn't be honest with me. 

It would make me very insecure in the relationship, which does not make me hang on tighter it pushes me away. I need total security. I think when you feel secure and can be honest those are the best relationships.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

See, more differences from us women posters & strong feelings behind their feelings. 

HelloooNurse would SPIT in the face of a sensitive man -she sees it as nothing but Groveling, IAN & MEM's advice is surely the answer for this type, if even that might do anything ! 

ANd Syrum I think , would have appreciated the honest heartfeltness of the letter, at least it appears that way -from her harshness against IAN. 

Although I give IAN credit for at least saying "The way to answer it will depend on your wife", he appears to be mentally open to the vast differences in us hard to understand women. 

I think he has very creative advice many times. I wont fork him.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is completly fasninating to me, allow me to dissect. You are submissive (I assume you mean in the bedroom as I recall you saying you struggle with initiating even) -but darn you ARE aggressive on this forum, never sparing that opionion.
> Maybe I just dont get it yet - I assumed DOMINATE automaically meant ALPHA. But you say your husband is dominate but NOT Alpha. I have alot to understand yet.


I know I am jacking up this thread but I felt I should answer. 

You may be assuming that submissive describes a mousey, quite, frightened, self deprecating, door mat kind of woman??? I am not surprised that you cannot see a woman who is as opinionated as I am as submissive. However, I am submissive in my home but, I am whatever I need to be when I work. Submission out of fear and lack of confidence is not really a choice to be lead by a good leader but a choice to be lead by anyone. That kind of submission leads to abuse. 

For me being submissive is a choice in that I regarding my H as head of the family. He is by temperament and nature more capable than I. I am like my mother and grandmother, they were smart and feisty SAHM's and they took care of the family. I love domesticity, to cook, serve the food, watch my family enjoy, I sew, knit etc. But I work full time in a profession. When I come home, I relax into my female receptive nature, I don't want to use my male energy. 

I never say any of the caustic things I write here in my real life. This is a stream of consciousness for me. I think them but you would never know it. I want my inner life and outer persona to match up better, posting here helps me to change. If you met me, you would not think me aggressive. 

My husband is the boss of the house and I respect him and try to be a good support. I also like to be submissive sexually. I know what it is like to be in charge, it is very difficult and I can do it but chose not to. 



SimplyAmorous said:


> It is nice to hear such a strong voice feel this way :iagree: I must have you mixed up with someone else, or maybe it was comments about men who are not dominate in the bedroom, but it makes sense you NEED that -given you are a submissive.


I never made any comments about men not being dominant in the bedroom ever, ever, ever. That would be emasculating to nice men. I love nice men, can't stand jerks. 

The terms alpha, dominant blah blah are meaningless to me. There are as many meanings as there are people who use the terms. It can be an excuse for an insecure man to take frustrations out on vulnerable women. 

There are so many men who I feel are letting themselves be abused by their wives and not standing up to themselves. In fact, they remind me of my husband more than the men who jerky men who claim to be alpha. However, he is lucky enough to be sensitive and very sure of himself at the same time, like his father. 

Many problems of our gender are ours to solve. The penchant for getting into relationships with jerks and putting down good men, cheating with another woman man. Woman know how bad that is to have children and to be left by a man who has been eeeffing some beoch but they have no sympathy. 

There should be another woman's movement espousing the principals of woman supporting each other, the sanctity of marriage and honoring good men and women, understanding the needs of men and women and respecting differential gender psychology, de-demonizing good men and women and eliminating beoches and jerks from the gene pool. 

I avoid criticizing woman because the great majority of woman already feel that they are lacking in some way and woman are far too backbiting and non-supportive of each other. I think the lives of woman are more difficult than ever now and I don't want to add to that.


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## andrew1 (Mar 7, 2011)

Jarvis said:


> Dear my beautiful wife
> I have a problem. It is my problem, but it affects both of us:
> In the years we have been married we have complemented one another perfectly. As a partnership we are perfect in nearly every way, and it does not surprise me that our marriage has worked successfully for so long when others our own age fail to do the same. We agree on where we want to go in our lives, and what we need to do to get there. With you, I make better decisions in my life and that’s a fact.
> The one and only area which causes me concern is our intimate relationship. I don’t just mean sex, though I can see why it might seem that way. Whilst you have never been incredibly touch-feely, I have always responded well to physical intimacy. I have always liked to know the person I am with wants to be with me by what they do, rather than by what they say.
> ...


Jarvis, that is almost identical to a letter I wrote to my wife but never sent ..... it's uncanny WOW


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## IH8theFriendZone (Mar 14, 2011)

Syrum said:


> I hate this advice.
> 
> Game playing sucks. this kind of thing would leave me feeling indifferent and cold. I would feel he didn't love me, start to question our relationship and wonder why he couldn't be honest with me.
> 
> It would make me very insecure in the relationship, which does not make me hang on tighter it pushes me away. I need total security. I think when you feel secure and can be honest those are the best relationships.


I read the whole thing and found it intriguing. But in the end, Syrum, I too did not like it at all. It's one thing to up the alpha and turn down the thermostat. It's another to toy with your spouse's emotions deliberately to manipulate them. And the whole time I was reading this, I kept thinking that my wife would know EXACTLY what was up the entire time. She wouldn't be concerned with cancer. She wouldn't be concerned I want a boob job. She wouldn't be concerned that I'm having problems at work. She would sit and fume the entire month that this process takes knowing d8mn well it's about sex. And she would not put up with it and would call me out.
This line of "problem solving" would probably work good if your wife was weak. This would last for all of about a week...two at max...before my wife waved the BS flag and just confronted me to talk about it or she would withdraw completely with the "screw it...let him figure it out, I'm done with this crap" attitude. Then I'd have THAT to overcome as well.


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## Tool (Feb 14, 2011)

I wouldnt give her a stupid letter.. that will make you look like an idiot..

Tell her straight up, we need to fix this or im out.. And you need to see results right away.. Be a Man and bring this to her..


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## Blue Moon (Sep 7, 2009)

Any update?


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