# Perfect and Not



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

My wife and I have been married for almost two years. In many ways, things are perfect. She would not doubt that I treat her well, though he worries I am overworked and stressed. We split the housework, I busy myself at the weekend and she cooks dinner and makes breakfast in the week. She is very understanding if I was to go out.

Only a couple of issues. She is not prepared to get a job and since we married, she is no longer interested in having kids (that had been my main motive for getting married). She helps with the housework now, but initially, I was working very long hours to make ends meet and then doing all the housework. This was a shock, indeed we had down reasonable hefty marriage preparation and are not kids (she was 30 and me 35).

That said, she worries about me and is tender. Just is not prepared to leave her confort zone. Would anyone recognise themselves in this and what helped them.

Thank you.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Read the books "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married Man's Sex Life Primer". See how much of yourself you see in there.

Why are you splitting the housework if she's a stay at home wife (not mom)? What is she doing all day? What reason does she give for not wanting kids or a job?

What was your relative financial positions before you two got married? Any chance she married you for your money or visa or anything other than love?

C


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

PBear said:


> Read the books "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married Man's Sex Life Primer". See how much of yourself you see in there.
> 
> Why are you splitting the housework if she's a stay at home wife (not mom)? What is she doing all day? What reason does she give for not wanting kids or a job?
> 
> ...


Cheers, worth a shot. My only other thought is to give it until summer and then walk away, which would be a shame.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> Cheers, worth a shot. My only other thought is to give it until summer and then walk away, which would be a shame.


How about talking with her, and really listening? Try active listening, where you repeat back to her what she says, making sure you have understood her. This should make her feel respected and really heard.

Okay, I'm going to yell at you a little bit . . . What is this wait 'til summer and then "walk away" business??? Would you like to be treated like that?

How about getting some clear communication going? Tell her very clearly your expectations for the marriage, including having children. Let her know the consequences of not complying with the expectations.

Be honest about how much of a dealbreaker children are. Encourage her not to be afraid to tell you she really does not want them. Offer a divorce, giving her half the assets. 

If she really does not want children, she should not feel pressured into having them. And then you need to go and find someone who does want them.


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Unless you have a plan to try to fix it, why "wait till summer"? Will the relationship fairy come along and wave her magic wand and make it all better?

What about my other questions?

C


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

if she agreed about wishes to have children and now is not

wanting to.....a "sit-down" is long overdue

if no children is a deal breaker, it is what it is

if you are not happy with her decision to not have kids

and stay....you will be miserable because it will gnaw at you

as time passes you will grow resentment over the least things

best not to rugsweep


----------



## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

I don't recognize myself in this however based on your post, I'd think for her to show you that she really cared, she'd step up and get a job. Or at the very least, be doing as much as she could to ensure the house-hold is taken care of. Being tender is all well and good but how is it that she's concerned about your stress and working too much - yet isn't willing to do what would likely be the most logical thing and get a job to help relieve some of that stress for you? 

Has she ever worked? Why is that outside of her comfort zone?

Have you discussed what your expectations are of one another and for the relationship?


----------



## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

I'm curious as well what she does during the day, and I don't mean that condescending at all. Is there something she does as a hobby that takes up a lot of time and that's why she does not have much time for housework? You even say at the beginning of the relationship that you were working and doing ALL the housework, so particularly curious as to what she was doing then. A time consuming hobby? Depression? Medical problems? All these things would affect my advice.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

There is a major part missed out, which is that we moved to Denmark. She has Danish lessons thrice a week, for a few hours a time. 

Before we were married, we split the housework and both worked. She left her job before the wedding and has not worked since. Once married and we moved to Denmark (which she likes very much) and the shock of the new affected her. She did not help with the housework while getting used to a new country and arguments arose as she did not start. At this point I was already very seriously overworked. 

She was officially looking for work, but it became evident that it was going through the motions and the work she could get, she was not interested in. In the USA, my income was about two and a half her income, and I could afford to keep us both. IN Denmark, my wages are lower, but hers would be higher (I would earn about 50% more). She was keen on the move and we had discussed the economy, indeed she had clear career plans.

Officially, she says that kids are an option, but as she does not see a time arising until a good few years, time would rule it out. The problem with talking was that it did not correlate with reality very much. She will certainly agree to do more, but as it is not followed up on, the talk does not seem worth it.

A year ago I was deperate to leave, organizing how was the only issue. A couple of things helped, I went to the doctor as I was catching minor illnesses a great deal, and he very quickly diagnosed me as severly depressed, which gave her a real shock. Also, the marriage counseller is encouraging her to work on listening better and try to give her a gentle kick up the bum. It seems fair to give it a chance, either for that to have an effect. The counsller also encouraged us to put children to the side until the summer and to reassess then, which to my ears would seem to mean give it until the summer to improve.


----------



## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

I would guess at least two years will be needed to adjust to a new country/culture, especially where a new language has to be learned. Can I suggest you may need to allow her more time to find her feet?


----------



## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

It does sound like this may be an adjustment issue. What does she like about Denmark? Could you use this information to highlight WHY working would be a choice she'd be glad she made? 

I think this is more immediate than children, too. It's not the right time to bring kids into your relationship.

Also, have you noticed any changes in yourself? I ask because if you were diagnosed with depression before and you're feeling discouraged now, I am wondering if you may have some depression creeping back in that may be influencing your own perceptions.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Mr The Other said:


> My wife and I have been married for almost two years. In many ways, things are perfect. She would not doubt that I treat her well, though he worries I am overworked and stressed. We split the housework, I busy myself at the weekend and she cooks dinner and makes breakfast in the week. She is very understanding if I was to go out.
> 
> Only a couple of issues. She is not prepared to get a job and since we married, she is no longer interested in having kids (that had been my main motive for getting married). She helps with the housework now, but initially, I was working very long hours to make ends meet and then doing all the housework. This was a shock, indeed we had down reasonable hefty marriage preparation and are not kids (she was 30 and me 35).
> 
> ...


Mr The Other, 
it sounds like your wife has a lot of redeeming qualities but she is driven by anxiety and fear of change or possibly just procrastination. 

If you love her then you've got to hold her accountable and push her past these obstacles and out of her comfort zone. She's on a one way trip toward low self esteem and depression if she doesn't make steps forward. And guess where that puts you. You'll be the target of her resentment.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> Mr The Other,
> it sounds like your wife has a lot of redeeming qualities but she is driven by anxiety and fear of change or possibly just procrastination.
> 
> If you love her then you've got to hold her accountable and push her past these obstacles and out of her comfort zone. She's on a one way trip toward low self esteem and depression if she doesn't make steps forward. And guess where that puts you. You'll be the target of her resentment.


This is very much how I see it. A simple kick up the bum is not likely to work, but then pandering to the comfort zone is not the answer either. 

I do not want to be dismissive of the move, but Denmark is not a scary country to move to, everyone speaks good English (she would have more trouble with England in that respect). Two years is plenty of time and she could work remotely if she wished.

I am aware my own perceptions are not 100%, however, as even our counseller spends her time getting my wife to make some effort, I am not alone in how I see it. I did not think I would get into yoga and regular meditation, but I get worn out and down without them. I therefore wanted to understand what could help.


----------



## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

Okay.

No work AND no mommy duties.

Uhkay.


----------



## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

yoga is evil. It looks so easy but it can be really difficult.

The "not wanting kids" part may be a symptom of her uncertainty. It seems like she's got to join the work force so she's not so isolated. Then see if her feelings about marriage and kids and other long term issues change. I bet she underestimated the shock of moving and being disconnected from everyone she knew.

Good luck.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Thundarr said:


> yoga is evil. It looks so easy but it can be really difficult.
> 
> The "not wanting kids" part may be a symptom of her uncertainty. It seems like she's got to join the work force so she's not so isolated. Then see if her feelings about marriage and kids and other long term issues change. I bet she underestimated the shock of moving and being disconnected from everyone she knew.
> 
> Good luck.


Until I started doing yoga, I did not realise that I was in chronic pain. After four months of yoga, I was an inch taller and pain I had not realised was there had disappeared. 

The shock of moving was certainly a factor. I think it made her retreat into her shell. It is seeing that which makes me patient, but I will not sacrifice everything for it. She said to me today that she felt I was not putting the work in on the relationship as much as she was, which is nonsense and the sort of statement that leaves our MC looking briefly flabberghasted.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Last summer, I was angry and depressed about everything. More recently, I had become much more positive until a moment when I wrote the original post.

When I was at my lowest and unable to take time of work, I decided to drop as many things as I could and investigate what would make me feel better. I went from normal exercise to yoga, daily meditiation and jounral keeping. Then I started to feel much better about life and the marriage.

A bad cold meant I had to drop the yoga for a week and suddenly I started to feel a little as I had in the previous summer and did my post on here. I started the yoga again, but missed meditation and felt pretty much as bad. I think yoga and meditation have covered up the problems in the marriage, dropping them for a few days showed me there are still big problems. 

She has started being responsible for most of the housework, which is good. It does mean it does not get done. Yet we get on fine, as long as I continue yoga and meditation.


----------



## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

She feels that she invests more into the relationship than you, but you feel exactly the opposite.

On your side of it, you are supporting both of you and until recently, managing your household entirely on your own.

On her side of it, she's supporting you through your depression and is making a big effort (in her mind) to take on more responsibilities. 

Basically, neither of you sees much value in what the other is doing.

Have you guys ever talked about what you want out of a marriage? What do each of you think are the qualities of a great, successful marriage? e.g. financial success, frequent and satisfying sex, children, etc


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

breeze said:


> She feels that she invests more into the relationship than you, but you feel exactly the opposite.
> 
> On your side of it, you are supporting both of you and until recently, managing your household entirely on your own.
> 
> ...


A very insightful post. She felt she was standing by me when I was exhausted, I felt if she either went away of helped, I would not be exhausted.

We talked before marriage, and the preparation concentrated on work, kids and sex. Minds change however, and shortly after the marriage she went off the idea of working. She also seemed slightly surprised that I meant what we discussed about kids and sex.

She was rather surprised when I was diagnosed with depression, but hearing it from a doctor made her take it a little more seriously. It was at that point I told her to help with the housework or we would get divorced. More recently, she has taken primary responsibility for it. Shortly after my diagnosis, she went to the doctor and got medication for mild depression, which is helping her a bit.

The MC advised us to put forget about kids until the summer, which is wise. W would plans to go to college and study mediaology or music rather than work. You put your finger on the issue, we do disagree on what makes a good marriage. 

What we discussed was the model I saw, which was a sexual, mutually supportive union in which to have kids. For her, it seems she wanted a commited friend and I would get a loved houseguest. Just as I would not expect my mate to help with my bills, give me sex or kids, so she is surprised I expect it from her. I think she assumed that I would come round to her way of seeing it once we were married.


----------



## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I think it could be safely said that you made the same assumption with her; that she would come round to your way of thinking once you were married.

You know what they say about assumptions.

Maybe your MC could help you both work on a relationship vision. This is something you would both have to work on separately, then come together to create a combined list that incorporates what you both see as aspects of a deeply satisfying love relationship. If you can align your goals to be working towards the same thing, I would bet the steps to get there would be a great deal easier.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

breeze said:


> I think it could be safely said that you made the same assumption with her; that she would come round to your way of thinking once you were married.
> 
> You know what they say about assumptions.
> 
> Maybe your MC could help you both work on a relationship vision. This is something you would both have to work on separately, then come together to create a combined list that incorporates what you both see as aspects of a deeply satisfying love relationship. If you can align your goals to be working towards the same thing, I would bet the steps to get there would be a great deal easier.


I would not say it was an assumption. We had a marriage preparation course in which we were to be explicit in what we expected and what we thought the other expected. We were then to compare and we were perfectly aligned. Moving to Denmark meant I would earn less than in theUSA and she would earn more, which was fine as long as we both worked. It is only recently that she conceded she did not really want a job unless it was a very good one. 

Equally, we were explicit about kids, we addressed it to make sure we were aligned. I knew it was more important to me, but we were both clear that marriage was a step towards kids. 

Also, sexually we discussed things very clearly and both stated what we wanted.

It was that these conversations and notes that she felt would not count anymore once we were married.

On the housework, there was assumption. I was working very long hours and she was not working. I also was doing every other task, shopping, DIY, particularly after the move. I assumed that she would clean up after herself, she assumed I would clean up after her. Frankly, the idea I should reasonably be expected to come home after a long day with the groceries and do the cooking was daft enough, that she expected me to clean her breakfast stuff off the table too was mad. 

It is the area where there was an assumption where we have compromised. In the areas where there was clear communication, we have the problems.

PS: It does strike at something though. My wife feels that we can talk the differences through, whereas I only see talk as being as useful if it leads to action. One common misunderstanding would be that she would say she should do more to help, I would hear that as an undertaking that she would, whereas in fact it was merely a comment - having agreed she _should_ do more was enough and to actually do more was not.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

How was your sex life before marriage, after marriage, after you moved to Denmark and now?


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> How was your sex life before marriage, after marriage, after you moved to Denmark and now?


Initially, most days, then a dip to a few times a week. It dipped further when I was working almost 80 hours a week, but still once or twice per week.

The move to Denmark and working harder than ever, once or twice a week. The real drop of was purchace of a dog and putting more pressure on her to help with housework. At that point it close to dried up (about four or five months after the move).


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a woman moving to a new country with no job and NOT doing the housework while her husband goes out and earns the money. 

To me, that signals a MAJOR flaw in her character. This is far from perfect.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> Initially, most days, then a dip to a few times a week. It dipped further when I was working almost 80 hours a week, but still once or twice per week.
> 
> The move to Denmark and working harder than ever, once or twice a week. The real drop of was purchace of a dog and putting more pressure on her to help with housework. At that point it close to dried up (about four or five months after the move).


Sounds like you got played.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine a woman moving to a new country with no job and NOT doing the housework while her husband goes out and earns the money.
> 
> To me, that signals a MAJOR flaw in her character. This is far from perfect.


A character flaw perhaps. The odd thing is that I think her concern for me is very strong and genuine, but post-marriage it takes seomthing enormous to make her do something about it. 

She is building a life in Denmark and post-divorce would have to leave. It is more a case of the fox and the scorpion than being played.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If you say so. Sounds to me like she was hitting 30 and needed a man, any man, to support her so she could do what she felt she deserved as a woman - to not have to work.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> Initially, most days, then a dip to a few times a week. It dipped further when I was working almost 80 hours a week, but still once or twice per week.
> 
> The move to Denmark and working harder than ever, once or twice a week. The real drop of was purchace of a dog and putting more pressure on her to help with housework. At that point it close to dried up (about four or five months after the move).


Assuming that you are not the one responsible for the drop off, I would be really concerned that someone else is in the picture.

Not wanting kids now may mean not wanting kids with you.

Has the lack of affection been brought up in counseling?

Get the book in my signature MMSLP. You can download it at amazon.

I would at least check phone records for lots of calls/texts to one or two numbers. You have to rule out obvious possibilities first and she has a ton of freetime to fill.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> Assuming that you are not the one responsible for the drop off, I would be really concerned that someone else is in the picture.
> 
> Not wanting kids now may mean not wanting kids with you.
> 
> ...


It was very promptly in my mind, but odd though it might seem I did not really suspected when I made sure. I really do not think it is the case.

Edit: The problem is not any spite so much as incredible inertia.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I strongly suggest getting the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER linked to below. It is not a sex manual as the name seems to imply. It is a manual for what a man needs to be to attract and hold his wife. IT IS NOT FOR THE PROGRESSIVE MIND MAN. It is just basic biology that has pretty much gone be the wayside in modern thought. Unfortunately (?), you cant fool mother nature.

Read the book and follow the MAP plan. You might save your marriage like so many here have.

After almost every man reads this, the make statements like, "every guy should read this in high school." one or two disagree


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> I strongly suggest getting the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER linked to below. It is not a sex manual as the name seems to imply. It is a manual for what a man needs to be to attract and hold his wife. IT IS NOT FOR THE PROGRESSIVE MIND MAN. It is just basic biology that has pretty much gone be the wayside in modern thought. Unfortunately (?), you cant fool mother nature.
> 
> Read the book and follow the MAP plan. You might save your marriage like so many here have.
> 
> After almost every man reads this, the make statements like, "every guy should read this in high school." one or two disagree


I have no problem whatsoever in pulling, even though I am not trying.


----------



## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Mr The Other said:


> I have no problem whatsoever in pulling, even though I am not trying.


I don't know what this means. Pulling out of the marriage?


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Chaparral said:


> I don't know what this means. Pulling out of the marriage?


Sorry, a bit of dialect! "Pulling" means attracting a sexual partner.

I mean being attractive to women is not a problem for me. I do not fully understand why, but I genuinely believe her libido disappeared. It has recovered briefly since, which was nice, but disappeared again. In the meantime, I have been approached by women who do not seem to realize that they should be out of my league, but I am a married man.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

My wife is feeling truely sorry for herself today and I do too, but not in the same way. By any reasonable measure, she is being unreasonable, however it because she is suffering. 
She does not want to work, so only I do that. She wants to go to college and is able to pursue that goal. She feels that I am not emotionally supportive enough of her depression (she was diagnosed as mildly depressed), however, often forgets that a year ago I was diagnosed as severely depressed and burnt out on top of it from over work. She complains my back rubs are half-hearted.
The problem is that she is becoming very self-centered and it is making her miserable, which in turn makes her more sorry for herself and is a viscious circle.
A year ago I was badly overworked, came home and did the housework and tried to cheer up my wife until my mental health got to breaking point. At that point, I removed most apps from my phone, gave up all radio apart from classical music, gave up TV, took up yoga and meditiation. I can now cope with supporting my wife and keep myself together.
However, I can see how being down made me dwell in my thoughts, which made it worse. My wife will not make a lifestyle change, claiming she cannot as she is depressed. This is like using obesity as an reason to eat donuts. However, she cannot shake herself out of it. She is in great pain and therefore genuinely believes that someone at the post office being lazy is a great cause for misery.
Essentially, it is reminding me a little of alcoholism. 
She is willing to give yoga a try, which might help a little.
I saw an old girlfriend briefly (I made my excuse and got away quickly), who asked whether there were any kids and what my wife was doing. Before the wedding W and I had spoken about how we both wanted these things. Hearing my evasions, she said "I did not start working hard until I had to." I fear it is good advice, but what to do with it, I do not know.

PS: I would add to this that I do not get much criticism from her. She thinks she is in a very hard situation and it is hard for me to give appropriate emotional support, but acknowledges that I try and I work hard.


----------



## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

How long have you been in Denmark? Forgive me if you have already said and I have missed it.

If she has depression it may well be exacerbated by the long, dark, Nordic winters, especially if she has not experienced anything like that before.

Does she have any local friends? Is she showing any signs of integrating into the local community?

I agree with others who have said it would be folly to push for children at this stage; you need to get the marriage back on track first.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

ClimbingTheWalls said:


> How long have you been in Denmark? Forgive me if you have already said and I have missed it.
> 
> If she has depression it may well be exacerbated by the long, dark, Nordic winters, especially if she has not experienced anything like that before.
> 
> ...


I am not pushing for children at this stage. We have been here for about two years. The long winters certainly do not help, but then again the long summers do not help either. She makes friends easily, although she is not out going, and has friends at her Danish class and the dog park.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

hjkfhiken said:


> That said, she worries about me and is tender.


?


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> A year ago I was badly overworked, came home and did the housework and tried to cheer up my wife
> 
> My wife will not make a lifestyle change


Sorry, but this is BS. I assume you have now stopped doing the housework, yes? She's a SAHM, that is HER JOB. Stop doing it.

And if you stop propping her up, she will HAVE to make a lifestyle change. Stop giving her money, cut up the credit cards, give her gift cards to the grocery store only, turn off the cable while you're at work, do something!


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> I am not pushing for children at this stage. We have been here for about two years.


She should be FLUENT in Danish after two years. Stop coddling her.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

It is getting to the tipping point now. I can feel myself burning out and her reaction is to offer to make less mess, to be careful not to spend money. I need her to keep the place clean and get a job so I can take time off.
I am sad it is ending, I can honestly say marriage preparation was very thorough. I do not believe in bait and switch, I think she just found the move hard and then as she was married, just relied on me instead of taking responsibility and fell into a spiral of self pity, which has led to a depression. However, I am reaching the end of what I can cope with. It is a horribly sad thing to face up to.


----------



## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

If you are truly prepared to end the marriage it is possible that might be a wake up call for her.

If it does end then better now than down the road with kids possibly involved.

I wish you well however things work out.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> It is getting to the tipping point now. I can feel myself burning out and her reaction is to offer to make less mess, to be careful not to spend money. I need her to keep the place clean and get a job so I can take time off.
> I am sad it is ending, I can honestly say marriage preparation was very thorough. I do not believe in bait and switch, I think she just found the move hard and then as she was married, just relied on me instead of taking responsibility and fell into a spiral of self pity, which has led to a depression. However, I am reaching the end of what I can cope with. It is a horribly sad thing to face up to.


You owe it to her to tell her this.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Communication has been clearer, whether that is me being clearer or her listening better I am not sure. I have been careful to never bluff.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm not telling you to bluff - just tell her you feel yourself checking out.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> I'm not telling you to bluff - just tell her you feel yourself checking out.


Indeed, I did not have that impression. I only meant that it has taken this long to say I am coming to the end of my tether because it is only now that it is true.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Addition to this, my work are now concerned that I am under too much stress. It has been suggested I see a shrink. Blimey. I can see the way solution to this, but we are in Denmark so she has nowhere else to go and I cannot afford a second place.

And, I might not get sex, kids, help with the finances and only a limited amout of help with the housework, but I was just brough a cup of tea and a kiss.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

The wife has been doing more housework and we are still heading for seperation. She wants to go back to college and it hurts her that I am not as supportive as I could be. Here we have a cliché, I have been paying the bills she has not worked, now college. I am making it possible for her, but it is too much to ask me to be pleased for about it. It is important to her. She will not see the lack of sex as a big deal and kids is something she sees as never having been seriously discussed. 

It is important she sees her not working as something she suffered and my job is to support her through it. Her lack of interest in sex as something that she suffered, and me being faithful as no sacrifice, and kids as something that was always a distant thing in the future. Equally, she has to see her helping with housework as a big thing she does for me and her going to college as being for me. If not, her self-worth would not be able to take it and the longer it goes on, the higher the stakes get.

When we talk, it is clear she sees the main problems as her, slightly depressed but rational, speaking with me, bouts of acute depression and rather irrational. She refers to not being able to get a job rather than not being able to get a job, as she would have trouble justifying that.

We discussed how I was not engaged. It is something she wants me to work on. I realized I am not sure what courses she is looking into doing at college, possibly as I do not like to dwell on it - not ideal husband behaviour at all.

We are slowly going towards seperation and I think it might be for the best. Give us both the chance to reflect.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

There is a fellow on TAM whose wife completed medical school and became a cardiologist but after that never worked seriously. She became obsessed with martial arts for a period and then dance. Eventually, she had an affair. He moved to Korea for work and she moved to Vancouver. She claims the affair is over. She does not want divorce. She demands money and emotional support. He has burnt out.

Turnera knows his name. I cannot think of it right now.

I live in Sweden, which is not dissimilar to Denmark. If your wife went to work for even just a few months and got pregnant, the system would probably pay her to have the baby.

A lot of people put off having children. The reality for many is that once they come, they give life focus. Don't cheat yourself of that opportunity. If your wife is 30, she may already have trouble conceiving.

If you 180 her, maybe she will wake up and get involved in your marriage. If not, you can move on. Right now she is just coasting.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks. 

The thing is, I believe my wife genuinely thinks she would do anything for me and that there are good reasons for why she it not working. She is harming herself more than me and it is a great shame.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

rubpy


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Mr The Other said:


> The thing is, I believe my wife genuinely thinks she would do anything for me


Great. Let her.

Stop giving her money.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Great. Let her.
> 
> Stop giving her money.


The money she gets buys groceries. She does not need or want much more.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Let your lawyer show her how little of your money she will get to be able to continue as is. IF she's lucky, you'll have to pay for her college once divorced. Nowadays, judges don't seem to be willing to let women stay at home any more once they get divorced. They're expected to get jobs.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> Let your lawyer show her how little of your money she will get to be able to continue as is. IF she's lucky, you'll have to pay for her college once divorced. Nowadays, judges don't seem to be willing to let women stay at home any more once they get divorced. They're expected to get jobs.


At present, I am hoping to just seperate.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So get a legal separation.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

Mr The Other said:


> Addition to this, my work are now concerned that I am under too much stress. It has been suggested I see a shrink. Blimey. *I can see the way solution to this, but we are in Denmark so she has nowhere else to go and I cannot afford a second place.*
> 
> And, I might not get sex, kids, help with the finances and only a limited amout of help with the housework, but I was just brough a cup of tea and a kiss.


They offer divorces in Denmark. Divorce her, send her arse back to England (or wherever you're from) and move forward with a woman who WANTS to WORK, WANTS to be your true PARTNER, WANTS to have sex with you, WANTS to be the mother of your children.

You were promised a rosebush and ended up with just the thorns!


And, please, don't pay for her to go to college! What the hell for? You're already paying ALL of her bills...she won't work (no job offers would be good enough). Now you're supposed to pay ALL of her bills *AND* COLLEGE TUITION!?!? WTF?

I'm a 57yo woman, and I think you're totally getting screwed (and NOT in the 'good' way!)


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

It will happen.

For balance, I will post something that reflects how I think my wife sees it.

"My husband is European and we moved back to Europe shortly after we married. His work is very demanding and as he was coming off the back of a hard project, he was often very stressed and he looked to me to support him. I did the best I could, but I could not find work in Denmark as I do not have a degree, so I could nto help financially. 

I resolved to learn Danish as quickly as I could and then go to college, which is not only free but would also give me a grant so I could help with the finances. This is something we had always spoken about before marriage. 

Last summer, he came close to a breakdown and it was a very scary period for us. I do not think we have ever really had a honeymoon period and I think he resents that I cannot find work. The truth is, though he said the move would be stressful for me, I do not think he has any idea how stressful it was.

I know a clean house matters to him, so I have been trying more and more with than and have dinner ready for him when he comes home. I think he resents me for the hard time we have had and he is uncommunicative. I struggled with depression and my sex drive disappeared, it is back now and we have had sex a few times this year. It would be more, but I cannot take the initiative and seems less and less interested.

I do not know how to get through to him to make him communicate. I always knew he was interested in having kids, but I think he is upset that we do not have them already. 

He means the world to me, but I do not know how to make him open up."


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Doesn't sound like she wants to separate.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

It is my guess at explaining her viewpoint. She would not want to seperate, nor work, or give up study.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I have been doing what I think is a 180. Basically, I am tired and becoming disengaged. The MC has started to talk about our marriage in the context that I might leave. There has been an effect, she is getting some work (she can work from home for a very high rate, when she gets the work) and cleaned the windows.

Also, we have started both doing yoga together (exercise would be asking too much and she is not keen on meditation) adn she has an appointment with a psychiatrist.

Probably all too late, but certainly something.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

A very useful conversation.

She was very upfront about her fears of having children, which she had mentioned before we were married but she seemed to have put in the past. She still says she is open to sex, but the long seemingly very mensturation times and headaches suggest not. Also, she said she wants to go to college and then get a good job before anything else, so will not be helping out with the finances (other than a student grant, which she will be eligiable for in this country).

She said I was in too much of a rush and that there would be time for what I wanted, to work on sex, to have two incomes and have kids. I asked her if she would consider putting her stuff on hold instead, as she has already had two years off work. The answer was an apologetic no. Realistically, the time for my stuff will never come, we are both in our thrirties.

That is pretty much that then. It is almost a relief to be seeing the end.

My workplace is rather concerned about me and has arranged for me to see a social counseller on Friday and to see a psychologist. I shall ask the former about how to approach legal seperation.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

It amazes me that she doesn't feel any sort of gratitude for you. It's as if it's your JOB to be her wagon that she gets to ride on. Who died and made her God?

And am I not mistaken in that she doesn't get to stay in Denmark if you divorce?


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

turnera said:


> It amazes me that she doesn't feel any sort of gratitude for you. It's as if it's your JOB to be her wagon that she gets to ride on. Who died and made her God?
> 
> And am I not mistaken in that she doesn't get to stay in Denmark if you divorce?


I think she does feel gratitude to a large extent. However, if she appreciates that I have been working then she has to look to the burden of her not working and she could not bear to do this. There is no spite here, she wants me to speak to more of my friends about the marital problems as she thinks I will get advice along the lines of hanging in there, instead I am told I am a good looking man with a good job and the world would be my oyster.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

It seems to me that at this point you two have divergent life goals. I thought you did a lovely job of presenting her viewpoint, and based on that I think if she puts school on hold and gives in to kids she's going to become more and more unhappy, and will probably want to go home at some point. Having kids can help some focus, but it can also make one painfully aware of how little family they have near them, and can make them yearn for their roots. 

I think you should stop pushing things and go your separate ways; as a guy you have plenty of time to find another woman and have a family. Neither of you is going to be happy here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Thank you.

I am not angry and do not want to be. From the outside, this looks like a bait and switch. I think it was more that she wanted to get married and pushed her doubts aside and pinned her hopes on a slightly unrealistic dream. The hard thing is that her hopes do seem unrealistic and I pray they work out.

We speak on the phone and laugh together. Same silly humour. She thinks we can talk it through, I think talking is not the main issue. Very stereotypical sex roles.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I am seeing a lawyer on Thursday. I am very sad about that.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MTO,
Have you asked her if she plans to return to the US in the event that you divorce? 

FYI: I predict that she is going to melt down and try to guilt you into staying with her. Some version of: you moved me all the way across the ocean and are now dumping me over little things.

You might want to gently point out that: The way it feels to you is:

Her contribution: 
- First and foremost she has done as little as she could possibly get away with
- You have had to apply a LOT of pressure to get even a little effort from her
- She is not attracted to you physically and lies about periods and headaches to avoid it
- She is consistently saying one thing and doing the opposite.
- She has shown minimal concern about your physical distress (when you got sick)
- As for your emotional distress, she pretends not to see it 
*- She talks and jokes with you*

Because she talks and jokes with you she expects you to:
- Fully support her financially 
- Do as much housework as she can convince you to do
- Accept a sexless marriage without complaint 
- Stay monogamous
- Be nice, and generous 
- Love her unconditionally 

--------
You will quickly find a good partner. She is going to have a very hard time finding someone else who will put up with this type nonsense. 

Don't let her guilt you. She knows exactly what she's been doing to you. In fact you ought turn it around. It would be fair to say: you've taken advantage of my kindness, generosity and patience to a degree I never would have believed possible. I'm not guilty for putting a stop to it, I'm embarrassed that I've put up with it for this long. 



Mr The Other said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I am not angry and do not want to be. From the outside, this looks like a bait and switch. I think it was more that she wanted to get married and pushed her doubts aside and pinned her hopes on a slightly unrealistic dream. The hard thing is that her hopes do seem unrealistic and I pray they work out.
> 
> We speak on the phone and laugh together. Same silly humour. She thinks we can talk it through, I think talking is not the main issue. Very stereotypical sex roles.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Thanks, MEM11363.

I think you have hit all the major issues. I think she genuinely has a very low sex drive, but should should have been open about this pre wedding. I also think she has some friends and family who feel she is not being reasonable, but they are not saying anything to her, so I am a lone voice.

The monogomy is increasingly difficult and as she is LD I think she genuinely finds it hard to understand why, when we had sex last month. I was in the USA with work last week, and went out and was drinking with a nice groupd of kids. After I returned to my hotel room, a young girl (just about young enough to be my daughter, it must be said) was at the hotel reception and called to my room to ask if she could come up. It was hard to say no (I did say no).


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MTO,
My W stayed home when we had kids. At first I was resistant to being the sole wage earner but:
- She was super hands on with the kids (constantly playing with them, reading with them, taking them on trips to museums, parks, etc)
- Totally ran the house (cleaning, laundry, bills)
- Was a terrific sexual partner 

I felt her contribution equaled mine and routinely said so. 

We did eventually have conflict over balance when the kids were mostly grown but we worked it out. 


QUOTE=Mr The Other;7983426]Thanks, MEM11363.

I think you have hit all the major issues. I think she genuinely has a very low sex drive, but should should have been open about this pre wedding. I also think she has some friends and family who feel she is not being reasonable, but they are not saying anything to her, so I am a lone voice.

The monogomy is increasingly difficult and as she is LD I think she genuinely finds it hard to understand why, when we had sex last month. I was in the USA with work last week, and went out and was drinking with a nice groupd of kids. After I returned to my hotel room, a young girl (just about young enough to be my daughter, it must be said) was at the hotel reception and called to my room to ask if she could come up. It was hard to say no (I did say no).[/QUOTE]


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MTO,
I don't know what 'normal' is in this regard however M2 and I are both 51 and she is way into menopause. Her sex drive is very low and yet she happily (without pressure) connects with me twice a week. She knows that once a month would be unkind and so she makes an effort in this area as I do in many other areas of our marriage. 

Once a month is more than low drive, it's low commitment. 

You are REALLY LUCKY you figured this out before having kids.....


QUOTE=Mr The Other;7983426]Thanks, MEM11363.

I think you have hit all the major issues. I think she genuinely has a very low sex drive, but should should have been open about this pre wedding. I also think she has some friends and family who feel she is not being reasonable, but they are not saying anything to her, so I am a lone voice.

The monogomy is increasingly difficult and as she is LD I think she genuinely finds it hard to understand why, when we had sex last month. I was in the USA with work last week, and went out and was drinking with a nice groupd of kids. After I returned to my hotel room, a young girl (just about young enough to be my daughter, it must be said) was at the hotel reception and called to my room to ask if she could come up. It was hard to say no (I did say no).[/QUOTE]


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

And I have spoken with the lawyer. First, we spoke of legal matters. It would come under Danish law and as a short marriage we would walk away with what we came to the marriage with. This would mean that I walk away with pretty much everything and an intact income whereas she would have very little. I would not leave it like that, of course. 

Secondly, we spoke more personally. His message was for f's sake, leave. We then chatted about how I could help her stay in Denmark and pursue her studies, which should be possible.

I feel slightly nauseated and am reminded that this board is real life and no game.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I am aware this thread is becoming boring and perhaps I am using it as my own diary.

A phone call chat about the marriage counselling tomorrow. She cannot understand why I do not believe that she is serious about us having kids in a few years, despite her reservations about it earlier. Also, school means everything to her.

She genuinely seems upset that I do not trust her on this. How can she find that strange?


----------



## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

I guess there's never a perfect time to have children. If a person isn't keen, there'll always be a reason to not have them. I didn't think that was the sole reason for the split anyway?


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Indeed. 

When I started this thread I was desperate, I still am slightly despairing. The thing is that she believes all of her excuses. She could not find a good job, could could have found a ****e one. Her sex drive has genuinely dropped, but there is more than one way to skin that cat, and we will have kids in a few years, as she has said for the last few years.

In her mind, I am suffering from being a very Type 1 personality that cannot understand that sometimes things take time and I can hav eeverything but not right away.

I write this more for women who despair of their unreasonable husbands who seem overly demanding.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MTO,
This isn't boring. 

Here's what's really sad about this. Almost all your issues with her are caused by her selfishness causing her to deprioritize you and your needs. 

Adding children into this situation would mean that the small amount of energy she has for giving to others, would now be spread across multiple people. 

*My guess is that she is either beautiful or extremely charismatic.* And she's gotten away with giving very little to others her entire life. You can't change that and kids will exacerbate it. 




Mr The Other said:


> Indeed.
> 
> When I started this thread I was desperate, I still am slightly despairing. The thing is that she believes all of her excuses. She could not find a good job, could could have found a ****e one. Her sex drive has genuinely dropped, but there is more than one way to skin that cat, and we will have kids in a few years, as she has said for the last few years.
> 
> ...


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> MTO,
> This isn't boring.
> 
> Here's what's really sad about this. Almost all your issues with her are caused by her selfishness causing her to deprioritize you and your needs.
> ...


Actually, neither. She was I thik genuinely surprised by my interest in her. She is also rather she and feels rather inadequate and scared much of the time.

PS: She is cooking fish and chips for us for dinner tonight and then I am heading out on my won to join my mates at the pub. I add this to say there is a good bit of good stuff in the relationship too.


----------



## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Your thread is not boring.

Just make certain your wife doesn't suddenly become sexual to get pregnant and trap you in sexless marriage with a baby.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You two genuinely enjoy each other's company. 

You treated her well because being good to her felt right and hurting her in any way felt bad. That's love. Her desires, goals and feelings matter to you. 

And her desires, goals and feelings matter to her. And since being married to you is good for her, she will do what you require: under threat of divorce. 

If you remove all fear from the equation, what does she really WANT to do for you? 



Mr The Other said:


> Actually, neither. She was I thik genuinely surprised by my interest in her. She is also rather she and feels rather inadequate and scared much of the time.
> 
> PS: She is cooking fish and chips for us for dinner tonight and then I am heading out on my won to join my mates at the pub. I add this to say there is a good bit of good stuff in the relationship too.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Indeed. I was always rather skeptical when she was diagnosed with mild depression, however I could see it clearly in the last session. She was unable to see positives and therefore unable to be grateful. She really does feel that she has made all the sacrifices as she cannot make out generous motives. It is very sad.

Even the MC seems to be gently urging towards ending it. She was asking me to assess what I wanted from the relationship and whether I got it.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Double dose of visits to shrinks.

Psychiatrist says she does not have ADD, just very low self esteem. I agree.

I spent 45 minutes with a psychologist (fortunately, I am worth a great deal to my company and colleagues often go down with stress, so they happily pay for this), and get no where yet. Though apparently, I am very handsome when relaxed .


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What could you do to help her with the very low self-esteem?


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> What could you do to help her with the very low self-esteem?


Not much.

The obvious answer is encourage her, care for her, listen to her concerns and take them seriously. That is just the basics of being a husband and pretty much goes without saying.

However, ultimately, it is up to her.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Normally, it is very tough when we talk. It has been easier lately. We spoke about her not doing housework when I was working my bum off last year. To her, the little she did seemed a great deal, but she can see she was wrong in that. She also acknowledged it could be hard to believe. 

The sex was discussed. She said that neither of us would want her to feel forced, which is true. My disagreement is that equates pushing for sex more than once as getting a bit rapey. I think that we can get ourselves used to ideas and frankly I have made an effort in the past with these things.

Financially, she does not want to do a low status part time job, but wants to go to college and do study jobs (something these is in this country, jobs specifically for students). I questioned how I could be sure that she would take one that was not up to scratch and she could not give an answer, other than that they would not be obliged or life defining. 

Kids she feels would be a bad idea for us, and I agree with that. It is still very tough. And I have just heard from an old friend in the USA who has split up with his wife and rarely been as happy.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MTO, have you mentioned lately that it might be better to divorce? It still seems to be in your mind.

Please be as transparent as you can, first with yourself, and then with her. Before kids is the time to divorce.

If you cannot meet each other's needs, it may be best to release one another from the relationship.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> MTO, have you mentioned lately that it might be better to divorce? It still seems to be in your mind.
> 
> Please be as transparent as you can, first with yourself, and then with her. Before kids is the time to divorce.
> 
> If you cannot meet each other's needs, it may be best to release one another from the relationship.


Sorry, I am thread hogging by having two threads and I am afraid the main one is on the Considering Divorce and Seperation thread. Our conversations with my wife are on whether we can see a future together. I would like to see a significant relationship togther, but increasing I do not.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Mr The Other said:


> What we discussed was the model I saw, which was a sexual, mutually supportive union in which to have kids. *For her, it seems she wanted a commited friend and I would get a loved houseguest.* Just as I would not expect my mate to help with my bills, give me sex or kids, *so she is surprised I expect it from her. I think she assumed that I would come round to her way of seeing it once we were married.*


Forget about "waiting around 'til summer." Time to pack up now, move along. She is never going to be the wife you want and you will never have the marriage you want based on your comments above.

Your comments are very revealing.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

I did wait until summer. We are now legally separated. 

She reflects that we both made mistakes. I actually fit the bill of a man who lets resentment get in the way. However, I have difficulty giving the trust she expects.


----------



## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

MTO, I've followed your posts from the start and have to say, while a sad ending it will be a new beginning for you and your life.

From what you have posted, it would be hard to turn the relationship around as you need both people to be vested.

Keep strong and good luck with the separation.


----------



## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Well, not that it matters much anymore, but just for some other insight I will give you my point of view. I have lived in a lot of foreign countries and I have a lot of experience.

When I was 20 I studied in a foreign country. I had really low self esteem then too. It was really hard for me to learn a language because I was self conscious. I also didn't like to go out alone or socialize a lot. It did also lead me to a bout of depression. 

I am just sharing to say that I think if your wife has low self esteem and moved to a new country, she may have had too much to handle with a new marriage, new country, new everything. 

I hope the best for you and her even if that is apart.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

inquizitivemind said:


> Well, not that it matters much anymore, but just for some other insight I will give you my point of view. I have lived in a lot of foreign countries and I have a lot of experience.
> 
> When I was 20 I studied in a foreign country. I had really low self esteem then too. It was really hard for me to learn a language because I was self conscious. I also didn't like to go out alone or socialize a lot. It did also lead me to a bout of depression.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I am one of the people on this board who appreciate it when people see the other side. 

I think you are right that she believed it was too much for her. One of the issues we faced was that I only needed a small amount of effort, but she believed there was no point in her even trying. We have passed that now and there are still daft hang-ups that I have too. Day to day, I have put everything in the past, but when we discuss it, she still sees it as my being insensitive the hard time she went through while I had it easy and that is something that winds me up even now.

One aspect of the depression she had was it monopolised victimhood. She would not get a job so I work extra hours – poor her ending up as a dependent. She went off sex and would not allow any intimate contact – poor her, and to make her worse off, there are women offering to her husband – even more poor her. The husband wants a baby soon – poor her. She does not do any housework – poor her, that her husband is demanding things she cannot live up to. Without being overwhelmed, she would not have thought like this, as she had not done so much when in the USA. 

That means I needed to be clear that what had happened was completely not OK. To her, she could have done better, but circumstances were against her. The answer is for one of us to give up on clinging to our version, but on such small things relationships struggle.

I can also see another area where I was at fault is that once talking was ineffective, I could not really explain what I meant otherwise. Rather than spending time working solo, I started to withdraw. It probably saved my sanity, but at a cost to teh relationship.


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Reading through this, I am rather taken aback by how reasonable I was.


----------

